# Examples from the real world involving KMA's



## Kong Soo Do

*We've had a lot of discussion lately concerning sport vs. self-defense vs. traditional vs. whatever.  In that regard, I thought it would be interesting, educational and informative to have thread where KMA's could detail examples of the use of their martial training in real world altercations (or those they have firsthand knowledge).  The pro's and con's.  The do's and don'ts.  Was it successful or did the training fail (and why).*

*Situation:  *Several years ago, my partner and I were in the day room area of one of the wings in the jail.  I was conducting a meeting with 35-40 felons, my partner was in the doorway as my back up.  During the meeting I heard everyone in the room 'gasp' and point to the door (which was behind me).  I turned and my partner was gone from sight (one of the felons close to the door had jumped him).  I ran into the hallway and heard the sounds of a scuffle in the room next to the day room.  I ordered everyone to stay in the dayroom (they complied).  I entered the room to see my partner grappling with an inmate.
Now, my partner is a large man (6'1 240lbs) with a bodybuilding physique.  Very strong with a BJJ background.  The inmate was even larger and an EDP (emotionally disturbed person).  This made matters even worse as EDP's often exhibit tremendous strength.  As I entered, the inmate was in a position of advantage while standing/grappling my partner.  The inmates back was to me.  At this point, the incident was not at a deadly force level.  I entered and delivered six downward elbow strikes to the inmates back, to the right of the spine and just below the shoulder blade.  The intent was to distract him from my partner and cause muscular dis-function by fluid shock.  This has worked for me in the past.  This time, the inmate didn't even know I was there!  Later, my partner told me he felt every one of my elbow strikes, through the inmates torso and into his own chest.  So I know the blows were powerful.  Yet, no results on the EDP inmate.

My partner was wearing his winter jacket (it was winter of course) so that limited his range of motion.  He was unable to gain a position of advantage over the inmate as they continued to struggle.  They went to the ground with my partner on the bottom.  I took a position on the inmates back to try to gain some position of advantage in order to get him off my partner.  The area was in the far corner of a 5x10 cell room, in-between the bunk, table and toilet which were all stainless steel and bolted to the walls.  So I had no choice but to get on the inmates back as I had no room for anything else.  

The inmate began raising himself up to make attempts to strike my partner in the side of the head with a closed fist.  My partner at this time was fading out.  The alteration had been going on full force for perhaps 30 seconds at this point.  Strikes to the head with a closed fist puts us at deadly force per policy (due to documented cases of 'great bodily harm and/or death from such force).  At this point I felt the only solution would be to choke out the inmate since strikes had proven ineffective.  I ran my hands across him upper torso area on last time looking for something...anything...any type of opening.  He shot his right arm out in order to push himself up of my partner in order to give himself enough room to punch.  That was the opening I was looking for.  I reached out and seized the fingers and locked them into the wrist which in turn locked his elbow, shoulder and waist.  His whole body seized up on the right side and he stopped struggling.  My partner was able to slip out and we 'cuffed and stuffed' him.  
*
Conclusion:*  My partner was winded with a few bruises.  The inmate had a few bruises but nothing more.  The altercation, which could have resulted in the use of deadly force, was resolved with no permanent injury to the EDP as the result of a successful joint lock (my specialty).  Strikes were ineffective due to his mental state, but the lock stopped his body from being able to perform on the right side from the waist up to his shoulder and down to his right hand.


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## puunui

This isn't a "real world" situation from the perspective of the typical martial arts student, because you are paid to be in this type of situation. You chose to be there, understanding the risks involved. That is your reality. But it isn't necessarily the reality of others. Most people wouldn't want to be prison guard. Sure there are things you can to do to avoid situations, but your ability to avoid is severely limited by your job requirements. The typical student is taught to avoid these types of situations which you are paid to be in the middle of everyday of your working life.


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## oftheherd1

puunui said:


> This isn't a "real world" situation from the perspective of the typical martial arts student, because you are paid to be in this type of situation. You chose to be there, understanding the risks involved. That is your reality. But it isn't necessarily the reality of others. Most people wouldn't want to be prison guard. Sure there are things you can to do to avoid situations, but your ability to avoid is severely limited by your job requirements. The typical student is taught to avoid these types of situations which you are paid to be in the middle of everyday of your working life.


 
Your point is taken.  I think most MA are taught to attempt to disengage a confrontation before it escalates to physical or imminent physical contact.  However, once that option is gone, as it was for the OP, then it is just as real world as it can be.  Learning how to disengage is often taught without any thought of teaching MA.  

Quite often it is taught to young children at home or at school.  In MA, we learn it for a variety of reasons; because we possess greater (even dangerous) fighting skills (we hope), because it is a "right" thing to do; because we don't want legal problems, etc.

The closest I ever came to using my MA was during an apprehension of a suspected blackmarketeer in Korea.  When MPs attempted to apprehend him he put up a quite spirited fight, and was rather muscular.  I was shopping with my family, and had to leave my young daughters with a PX employee (wasn't taking them near) while I investigated the problem, which I could hear but not see.  When I got there, there were 5 or 6 MPs in and out of uniform holding this guy on the floor where he continued to struggle.  

One had him in an arm lock, but it seemed ineffective.  I reached past the arm lock, got hold of his wrist and applied a strong and painful lock, telling him that was it, and to stop.  He did.  Nothing to it on my part.  The others did all the work and took all the bruises.  I just gave the guy the incentive he needed to stop.  

What I later complained about was the rest suddenly found other things they needed to do and left me alone with the guy.  Fortunately, he no longer was in a fighting mood.  And considering the effort needed to subdue him to the point they had before I arrived, I guess I can't blame them for wanting to be away from there.


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## jks9199

puunui said:


> This isn't a "real world" situation from the perspective of the typical martial arts student, because you are paid to be in this type of situation. You chose to be there, understanding the risks involved. That is your reality. But it isn't necessarily the reality of others. Most people wouldn't want to be prison guard. Sure there are things you can to do to avoid situations, but your ability to avoid is severely limited by your job requirements. The typical student is taught to avoid these types of situations which you are paid to be in the middle of everyday of your working life.


OK, granted that a prison is not a "normal" environment for most folks.  It's still a real, functional application of his martial arts training outside the training hall floor, no?  And, let's be real.  Most people taking martial arts today are not likely to get in many fights, for lots of reasons, unless they are paid to be there somehow, like a police officer, corrections officer, or some sort of security officer.  

Nor is disengagement always the best or most appropriate action.  But that's a topic for another thread.

I'm looking forward to reading more accounts of people actually applying their martial arts training to real altercations.


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## Manny

Kong Soo Do said:


> *We've had a lot of discussion lately concerning sport vs. self-defense vs. traditional vs. whatever.  In that regard, I thought it would be interesting, educational and informative to have thread where KMA's could detail examples of the use of their martial training in real world altercations (or those they have firsthand knowledge).  The pro's and con's.  The do's and don'ts.  Was it successful or did the training fail (and why).*
> 
> *Situation:  *Several years ago, my partner and I were in the day room area of one of the wings in the jail.  I was conducting a meeting with 35-40 felons, my partner was in the doorway as my back up.  During the meeting I heard everyone in the room 'gasp' and point to the door (which was behind me).  I turned and my partner was gone from sight (one of the felons close to the door had jumped him).  I ran into the hallway and heard the sounds of a scuffle in the room next to the day room.  I ordered everyone to stay in the dayroom (they complied).  I entered the room to see my partner grappling with an inmate.
> Now, my partner is a large man (6'1 240lbs) with a bodybuilding physique.  Very strong with a BJJ background.  The inmate was even larger and an EDP (emotionally disturbed person).  This made matters even worse as EDP's often exhibit tremendous strength.  As I entered, the inmate was in a position of advantage while standing/grappling my partner.  The inmates back was to me.  At this point, the incident was not at a deadly force level.  I entered and delivered six downward elbow strikes to the inmates back, to the right of the spine and just below the shoulder blade.  The intent was to distract him from my partner and cause muscular dis-function by fluid shock.  This has worked for me in the past.  This time, the inmate didn't even know I was there!  Later, my partner told me he felt every one of my elbow strikes, through the inmates torso and into his own chest.  So I know the blows were powerful.  Yet, no results on the EDP inmate.
> 
> My partner was wearing his winter jacket (it was winter of course) so that limited his range of motion.  He was unable to gain a position of advantage over the inmate as they continued to struggle.  They went to the ground with my partner on the bottom.  I took a position on the inmates back to try to gain some position of advantage in order to get him off my partner.  The area was in the far corner of a 5x10 cell room, in-between the bunk, table and toilet which were all stainless steel and bolted to the walls.  So I had no choice but to get on the inmates back as I had no room for anything else.
> 
> The inmate began raising himself up to make attempts to strike my partner in the side of the head with a closed fist.  My partner at this time was fading out.  The alteration had been going on full force for perhaps 30 seconds at this point.  Strikes to the head with a closed fist puts us at deadly force per policy (due to documented cases of 'great bodily harm and/or death from such force).  At this point I felt the only solution would be to choke out the inmate since strikes had proven ineffective.  I ran my hands across him upper torso area on last time looking for something...anything...any type of opening.  He shot his right arm out in order to push himself up of my partner in order to give himself enough room to punch.  That was the opening I was looking for.  I reached out and seized the fingers and locked them into the wrist which in turn locked his elbow, shoulder and waist.  His whole body seized up on the right side and he stopped struggling.  My partner was able to slip out and we 'cuffed and stuffed' him.
> *
> Conclusion:*  My partner was winded with a few bruises.  The inmate had a few bruises but nothing more.  The altercation, which could have resulted in the use of deadly force, was resolved with no permanent injury to the EDP as the result of a successful joint lock (my specialty).  Strikes were ineffective due to his mental state, but the lock stopped his body from being able to perform on the right side from the waist up to his shoulder and down to his right hand.



Pretty-pretty scary!!! this was a real self defense situation that only two gud guy could manage, I am happy for your partner to having near.

Don't you have stunt guns (tassers,etc) at hand for that kind of close encounters?

Manny


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## Manny

Well thanks god I haven't have to fight for my life and hope never have to, the only fights I've been involved was in elementary school (please don't laugh) some I won some I lose. The only altercation I had many years ago was  in a bar where a large budy and myself used a tackle to drop three or so drunk men and the fight endend there cause the waiters and owners of the bar (friends of mine) settle things and call the police to carry these men to jail.

However there some times I have those bad dreams about defending myself and even my best blows and kicks cause no effect on the bad guy and that's pretty scary, also I have had nightmares where my pistol  does not fire/jam or what ever or my shots don't drop the bad guy.

I am not a LEO, I used to do practical pistol shooting and I have some registered guns in home for home security, I don't carry a gun.

I carried a pair of scrima sticks on my car (yes I always have my martial art stuff in the car) but lately I've been thinking getting a collapsible baton for just in case.

Manny


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> This isn't a "real world" situation from the perspective of the typical martial arts student, because you are paid to be in this type of situation. You chose to be there, understanding the risks involved. That is your reality. But it isn't necessarily the reality of others. Most people wouldn't want to be prison guard. Sure there are things you can to do to avoid situations, but your ability to avoid is severely limited by your job requirements. The typical student is taught to avoid these types of situations which you are paid to be in the middle of everyday of your working life.



First as a clarification, I'm not a prison guard.  I'm a Deputy (two entirely different things).

Secondly, your missing the point entirely.  The thread is for individuals to post real world examples of how they've used their training.  Whether an 'on-duty' example or someone being accosted in a parking lot, both are real world examples of how things worked or didn't work.  What principles were use?  What techniques?  What strategies?  What can be learned?  This type of thing.  Everything has a take home point and even a bad example can be useful for training purposes.

Take home points in my example;



Even powerful strikes in non-lethal areas can fail.
A situation which starts out at less-than-lethal levels can quickly escalate.
A proper joint lock, at the appropriate time, can immobilize even an EDP.
Be as patient as possible for the situation, look for openings.
This is the purpose of the thread.  I believe I made that clear in the OP.


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## Archtkd

Kong Soo Do said:


> First as a clarification, I'm not a prison guard.  I'm a Deputy (two entirely different things).
> 
> Secondly, your missing the point entirely.  The thread is for individuals to post real world examples of how they've used their training.  Whether an 'on-duty' example or someone being accosted in a parking lot, both are real world examples of how things worked or didn't work.  What principles were use?  What techniques?  What strategies?  What can be learned?  This type of thing.  Everything has a take home point and even a bad example can be useful for training purposes.
> 
> Take home points in my example;
> 
> 
> 
> Even powerful strikes in non-lethal areas can fail.
> A situation which starts out at less-than-lethal levels can quickly escalate.
> A proper joint lock, at the appropriate time, can immobilize even an EDP.
> Be as patient as possible for the situation, look for openings.
> This is the purpose of the thread.  I believe I made that clear in the OP.



Interesting story, but what can be learned from these types of "real world" posts is questionable. Something like this is subject to too wide and diverse an opinion as to be useful to many, especially in a Taekwondo forum. I also think this is a very job specific issue. While few Taekwondoin have experienced a jail attack, is there any veteran beat cop or jail guard who could not tell a story like this?  Some of the contradictory conclusions that could be made from your story include:

1. The prisoner, while clumsy in his attack, apparently overcame a big trained deputy.The deputy might need lots more work on his BJJ.

2. The deputy was ill prepared and out of mental or physical shape to deal with the attack . Again, maybe he needs more training.

3. Your response, given that the prisoner did not attack you, and had his back to you, is not the best example of self defense "in the streets." where total surprise rules. I would expect a deputy in a jail full of inmates to be prepared for an attack at any moment, at leas if we are to believe what we see on TV. 

4. A boxer can argue that a short sharp hook to the prisoners' kidney, from behind, would have solved the problem in one second. Key word: argue.

5. We can't really conclude that this  situation started out at "less-than-lethal level." Actually what is that? Do we really know the intent of the attacker?

5. Etc. etc.


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## Kong Soo Do

Archtkd said:


> Interesting story, but what can be learned from these types of "real world" posts is questionable.


 
Quite a bit can be learned if one is open to it. I've listed some viable things for anyone to consider during a violent attack. Things that aren't covered in many Dojangs.



> 1. The prisoner, while clumsy in his attack, apparently overcame a big trained deputy.The deputy might need lots more work on his BJJ.


 
Actually, his BJJ was pretty good. But, and again this is a take home point for everyone reading to consider, environmental conditions can alter someone's game plan. For example, BJJ on an open, level mat is one thing. In a very crowded environment it is quite another. The fact that it was a jail cell is not relevant. It could have been an elevator, a small hallway, between two parked cars or a bedroom with furniture. Additionally, he was wearing a large winter jacket. That is what should be taken from the example. 


Does your/my/our training require a well lit, dry, flat, soft surface to be effective?
Does your/my/our training require a specific amount of distance from the attacker to be effective.
Does the type of clothing we wear help or hinder our reactions?
Do we train in just one type of clothing or do we consider and train in 'street clothing' from time to time?
These are the types of things that examples such as this can bring out. It is for the reader to perhaps have a 'light bulb' moment and say to him/herself, "Hey...maybe a street clothing night should be tossed in from time to time...see what happens". Or, "Hmm...maybe we should put some obstacles on the mat like chairs and table to simulate a closed in environment...see what happens and what we can do to deal with it". 

That's the type of stuff I'm talking about here.



> 2. The deputy was ill prepared and out of mental or physical shape to deal with the attack . Again, maybe he needs more training.


 
Perhaps. Can this serve as an example for all of us to be better prepared and more aware of our surroundings? Sure it can. Which is why this thread was created.



> 3. Your response, given that the prisoner did not attack you, and had his back to you, is not the best example of self defense "in the streets." where total surprise rules. I would expect a deputy in a jail full of inmates to be prepared for an attack at any moment, at leas if we are to believe what we see on TV.


 
Would there ever be a time where we might come to the aid of someone being attacked. Sure there is, be it a stranger or a loved one. Again, the location isn't a vital thing as it could happen in the middle of the mall or in a parking lot. 

And too be honest, T.V. isn't the best source of information usually.



> 4. A boxer can argue that a short sharp hook to the prisoners' kidney, from behind, would have solved the problem in one second. Key word: argue.


 
Yes, and on a normal individual it may work well. On an EDP, maybe not. I've seen an EDP take multiple groin shots and laugh while he's throwing multiple people around. So this serves as a good example, regardless of where the encounter occurs of possible ways to deal with an EDP. 



> 5. We can't really conclude that this situation started out at "less-than-lethal level." Actually what is that? Do we really know the intent of the attacker?


 
Again, the actions of the situation dictate what level your at. Wrestling around probably wouldn't meet the definition of letal/deadly force from a legal standpoint although subject factors can weigh in on the final conclusion. However, blows to the head with a closed fist often (depending on local) can be a platform for the use of lethal/deadly force. Take home points;


Do practitioners know their local laws?
Do they know how to find out?
Are they encouraged or educated by their instructor on levels of force and possible legal ramifications?
Again, just from this one example we can find a plethora of useful things that we should all consider, train for, prepare for and educate ourselves in ahead of time.


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## puunui

jks9199 said:


> OK, granted that a prison is not a "normal" environment for most folks.  It's still a real, functional application of his martial arts training outside the training hall floor, no?  And, let's be real.  Most people taking martial arts today are not likely to get in many fights, for lots of reasons, unless they are paid to be there somehow, like a police officer, corrections officer, or some sort of security officer.




So if that is true, then why the big push to emphasize "self defense" in martial arts schools, especially those whose primary student base are children?


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Secondly, your missing the point entirely.  The thread is for individuals to post real world examples of how they've used their training.  Whether an 'on-duty' example or someone being accosted in a parking lot, both are real world examples of how things worked or didn't work.




I disagree on your definition of the term "real world". To the average martial arts student, your example is not "real world" because they don't belong to that world, just like they do not belong to a world where drive by shootings are common or where kids use cell phones to activate land mines. Giving examples of these types of "real world" situations does them no good, because again, it is not their world. And if that is true, then why should they have to prepare for that type of situation? And asking someone to prepare for that has about as much value as saying that someone in Hawaii should go out and buy snow chains for their tires. Maybe in your real world, that would be a prudent thing to do, but not for me in my real world.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Quite a bit can be learned if one is open to it. I've listed some viable things for anyone to consider during a violent attack. Things that aren't covered in many Dojangs.



Maybe they aren't covered because the students are there for reasons other than self defense from a violent attack. Maybe in your real world, working with felons, that is an important consideration, but perhaps in someone else's real world, it is not so important. 

For example, in your profession as a law enforcement officer, do you think that sidearms are an important and necessary piece of equipment that should be carried with you at all times? If so, do you think that a 3 year old white belt Taekwondo student should be similarly equipped?


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> So if that is true, then why the big push to emphasize "self defense" in martial arts schools, especially those whose primary student base are children?


 
This wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to offer my thoughts.  While it is probably true the chidren make up the bulk of many, if not most commercial TKD Dojangs there are also teens and adults.  Children need different training i.e. bullies, avoiding strangers, abduction prevention etc.  Teens and adults though can benefit greatly from an SD mindset, even if the school is primarily sport centered.  Although a 'sport-only' school that has no experience on the SD side of the fence isn't qualified to teach SD, they can still go a long way towards some general education for the students.  

And, there are many TKD schools that do provide good SD training.  And any additional things they may be able to pick up in this thread (or any other) is only a plus for their students.  It is my firm belief that an instructor is always looking for information that can be of value to their students.  Since no one knows it all (I certainly don't) then the sharing of information (such as this thread and others) can provide previously unknown or not-considered information.


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I disagree on your definition of the term "real world".


 
That really isn't a surprise.



> Maybe in your real world, that would be a prudent thing to do, but not for me in my real world.


 
So your saying there will never be a chance that you need to aid another human being that is being attacked?  Or that you wouldn't aid him/her?

So your saying that there is no chance of ever encountering an EDP?

So your saying that there is no chance that your strike is ineffective and you need to go to something else?

That's a nice world you live in.



> Maybe they aren't covered because the students are there for reasons other than self defense from a violent attack.


 
Education is always a plus regardless of the primary reason for training.  



> For example, in your profession as a law enforcement officer, do you think that sidearms are an important and necessary piece of equipment that should be carried with you at all times? If so, do you think that a 3 year old white belt Taekwondo student should be similarly equipped?


 
Why, do you think a 3 year old needs one?  That is a very silly statement on your part and your grasping at straws.

Perhaps, if in your world you don't need any SD things to consider...or you have nothing positive to contribute to the topic of the thread you should perhaps not burden yourself with posting here.  That way the thread remains on track and unclutered for those that may actually have something of their own to contribute or possibly use from what is posted that is on topic.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Children need different training i.e. bullies, avoiding strangers, abduction prevention etc.  Teens and adults though can benefit greatly from an SD mindset, even if the school is primarily sport centered.  Although a 'sport-only' school that has no experience on the SD side of the fence isn't qualified to teach SD, they can still go a long way towards some general education for the students.




But you didn't answer the question: WHY is self defense training so important, if as the other poster stated, the majority of students will never get into a self defense situation in their entire lives? 

PS: Most dojang neither emphasize self defense nor sport, but rather cater to what the overwhelming majority of students seem to want from a martial arts experience today -- which is exercise, health, discipline of mind, respect taught to children, and family time. The "sport vs. self defense" dichotomy really does not apply. And to tell you the truth, I don't think it ever applied. It was never "either or" of those two choices.


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## Kong Soo Do

Manny said:


> Don't you have stunt guns (tassers,etc) at hand for that kind of close encounters?


 
Manny, 

Back then we carried a S&W Model 64 .38 revolver with six rounds and no speed loaders. And when we had to go on the inside of the jail the weapons were stored on the outside. We didn't even have Mace or O.C. when I first started.

Nowadays our belts look like something out of a Batman movie.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> So your saying there will never be a chance that you need to aid another human being that is being attacked?  Or that you wouldn't aid him/her?
> So your saying that there is no chance of ever encountering an EDP? So your saying that there is no chance that your strike is ineffective and you need to go to something else?
> That's a nice world you live in.



Most people, especially those sending their kids and themselves to suburban dojang paying $150 or more per month for lessons do live in a nice world. They certainly live in a different world than the one that you live in, where the possibility of an inmate attacking you is real. As for those things never happening, I am sure there is a possibility that it may happen, but the possibility is so small that it is not worth it to the majority of students to devote substantial time and energy to develop self defense skills that they will most probably never use. It may snow tomorrow in Hawaii, but that miniscule probability isn't worth me investing in snow chains or a heater for my house. Why should I prepare for the blizzard that will most probably never happen? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Why, do you think a 3 year old needs one?  That is a very silly statement on your part and your grasping at straws.



I'm not grasping at straws, I'm using an extreme example in an effort to get you to see things other than from your own viewpoint. Other people don't want or need self defense skills in the same way that you want or need them. And it should be ok for them to be martial arts students too, just like it should be ok for martial arts instructors to focus the training for these types of students on areas other than self defense. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps, if in your world you don't need any SD things to consider...or you have nothing positive to contribute to the topic of the thread you should perhaps not burden yourself with posting here.  That way the thread remains on track and unclutered for those that may actually have something of their own to contribute or possibly use from what is posted that is on topic.



I am contributing positively to the thread. Sorry you feel otherwise. And I've posted several self defense situations on MT as well. You want more examples? I am not opposed to self defense training; what I am opposed to is the idea of some that self defense is the be all and end all of martial arts training, that if you are not primarily focused on self defense training, then something is wrong with either you, your instructor, your school or your art.


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I am not opposed to self defense training; what I am opposed to is the idea of some that self defense is the be all and end all of martial arts training, that if you are not primarily focused on self defense training, then something is wrong with either you, your instructor, your school or your art.


 
No one stated that you're a loser if you train something other than SD.  That is your misperception.  And if a particular individual wants nothing to do with SD, then no one is forcing them to participate or even view this particular thread.  

However, if an individual does teach/train for SD, or, teach/trains for some other reason but would like to take a look at some additional tools for the tool box then here's the thread (among others) for them to view and participate in.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> No one stated that you're a loser if you train something other than SD.  That is your misperception.



No it is not my misperception. There have been plenty of posts which have stated exactly that, that you are a loser if you train for something other than self defense. In fact, you infer as much in your posts as well. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> And if a particular individual wants nothing to do with SD, then no one is forcing them to participate or even view this particular thread.



If you notice, until I responded to your post, no one else had. In fact, there has been no response thus far with anyone volunteering a self defense scenario similar to the one you told us about. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> However, if an individual does teach/train for SD, or, teach/trains for some other reason but would like to take a look at some additional tools for the tool box then here's the thread (among others) for them to view and participate in.



Let's hope someone else chimes in with a story. Currently, yours is the only one in the thread.


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Let's hope someone else chimes in with a story.


 
That's what this thread is for.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> That's what this thread is for.



There are also forums and subforums on Martial Talk for this subject as well. Try checking the "Arts" section for the "Self Defense" forum, and its subforums, "Law Enforcement", "Security and Bouncers" and especially "War Stories". These might be more appropriate places for this topic. You might get more hits there.


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> There are also forums and subforums on Martial Talk for this subject as well. Try checking the "Arts" section for the "Self Defense" forum, and its subforums, "Law Enforcement", "Security and Bouncers" and especially "War Stories". These might be more appropriate places for this topic. You might get more hits there.


 
I appreciate the suggestion, but I wanted to narrow the scope down to KMA's.  I chose the TKD section specifically as it is the most active overall and there have been several members other than myself discussing SD related topics in relation to TKD.


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## oftheherd1

From post #17 by Puunui:
____________________________________________________________________________
Most people, especially those sending their kids and themselves to suburban dojang paying $150 or more per month for lessons do live in a nice world. They certainly live in a different world than the one that you live in, where the possibility of an inmate attacking you is real. As for those things never happening, I am sure there is a possibility that it may happen, but the possibility is so small that it is not worth it to the majority of students to devote substantial time and energy to develop self defense skills that they will most probably never use. It may snow tomorrow in Hawaii, but that miniscule probability isn't worth me investing in snow chains or a heater for my house. Why should I prepare for the blizzard that will most probably never happen? 



I'm not grasping at straws, I'm using an extreme example in an effort to get you to see things other than from your own viewpoint. Other people don't want or need self defense skills in the same way that you want or need them. And it should be ok for them to be martial arts students too, just like it should be ok for martial arts instructors to focus the training for these types of students on areas other than self defense. 
________________________________________________________________________

Puunui - are you an instructor, or an experienced MA? If so, why do the majority of people in your experience study MA? Sport or SD, if they are studying a Martial Art, by definition they are learning fighting skills. The mental skills they are taught, or not taught, may be debatable, but a martial art is a fighting art.

Do most people need fighting skills? Well, first they need to know how not to place themselves in harm's way when that is possible, then how to disengage if possible, _then_ to defend if the first two options have failed. That is a very simple statement, I know. Are these not taught in most martial arts studios? I don't travel in martial arts circles, so I don't know. Thanks for anything you can offer on that.


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## andyjeffries

oftheherd1 said:


> Puunui - are you an instructor, or an experienced MA?



You can put a tick in the "definitely" column for that question... ;-)



oftheherd1 said:


> If so, why do the majority of people in your experience study MA? Sport or SD, if they are studying a Martial Art, by definition they are learning fighting skills. The mental skills they are taught, or not taught, may be debatable, but a martial art is a fighting art.Do most people need fighting skills? Well, first they need to know how not to place themselves in harm's way when that is possible, then how to disengage if possible, _then_ to defend if the first two options have failed.



I started Taekwondo many moons ago because I was being bullied at school.  Once I started taekwondo, very rapidly (within a few months) the bullying pretty much just stopped.  I hadn't needed to fight anyone or hit anyone.  I even had reduced the amount of avoiding people I had done up to that point.

What Taekwondo taught me was the self-confidence and it was that aspect of it that helped make me less of a victim (or seen as a potential victim).

Sure I could back it up with skills (probably less so than I thought at that time) but for me with hindsight the most important reasons were confidence building and discipline - the physical training/skills were just the vehicle to get the other benefits.

These days I realise against a decent MMA fighter or ground fighter (if they want to take it there) my Taekwondo skills probably won't cut the mustard, but the way I hold myself makes it less likely I'll get in a fight.


----------



## Manny

Kong Soo Do said:


> Manny,
> 
> Back then we carried a S&W Model 64 .38 revolver with six rounds and no speed loaders. And when we had to go on the inside of the jail the weapons were stored on the outside. We didn't even have Mace or O.C. when I first started.
> 
> Nowadays our belts look like something out of a Batman movie.



Wow... I must think that was many-many years ago. Thanks God you could solve the problem that day, and yes sh..... hapens quite ofthen.

Tha situation you lived that day is a very scary one, and something we must to remeber is no matter how large or small is our asailant, there is no small enemy, and even a small person on drugs or a drenalin rush can fight pretty nasty. I've seen 5' 6" 140 punds guys thet needs more than 3 or 4 huge cops to put it under custody.

Any how I think your post is a good one and it have good valid points to check.

Manny


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## Daniel Sullivan

oftheherd1 said:


> Puunui - are you an instructor, or an experienced MA? If so, why do the majority of people in your experience study MA? *Sport or SD*, if they are studying a Martial Art, by definition they are learning fighting skills.


Why does is have to be either?  For one, he answered the question a few posts back: fitness and lifestyle benefits, respect taught to kids, and family time (paraphrasing his response).



oftheherd1 said:


> The mental skills they are taught, or not taught, may be debatable, but a martial art is a fighting art.


So far as I know, the original reason that the Shaolin monk began training in the arts was because they were out of shape and needed something to do to change that.  Whether or not that is accuarte, that is the reason that many people take up a martial art.

Also, while they may be fighting skills, most people involved in a modern MA practice some extension of Gendai Budo, which is geared towards personal development through the practice of fighting skills and through competition.  

Kendo is gendai budo.  Its stated purpose is as follows: 

[SIZE=-1]The purpose of practicing Kendo is:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To mold the mind and body,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To cultivate a vigorous spirit,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And through correct and rigid training,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To associate with others with sincerity,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This will make one be able: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To love his/her country and society,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]To contribute to the development of culture[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.[/SIZE]


So while you are learning to sword fight, the purpose is clearly not killing people.  Iaido also has a similar self development element to it, inspite of the fact that you are practicing what would be lethal attacks if used against another person with a shinken.

Taekwondo is not meant to be a pure sport or a pure self defense art, but a 'do' art.

Daniel


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## tinker1

Kong Soo Do said:


> *We've had a lot of discussion lately concerning sport vs. self-defense vs. traditional vs. whatever.  In that regard, I thought it would be interesting, educational and informative to have thread where KMA's could detail examples of the use of their martial training in real world altercations (or those they have firsthand knowledge).  The pro's and con's.  The do's and don'ts.  Was it successful or did the training fail (and why).*



I'm a biker.  Not a 1%er - but I do hang around with those guys from time to time.  I go into "biker bars" all the time - for the music and the fun.

I also grew up in a small town in the country, and have spent a lot of time in "country bars", also for the music and the fun.

Yes I've had a few altercations.  I'm really not sure I want to get into war stories.  I will say though that I've had a gun pulled on me.. and another guy threatened me with his knife.. neither of those situations ended well for the other guy.  

I've also dealt with angry drunks - that's probably the most common issue.  Most of those I've talked my way out from a physical confrontation, but a few have gotten physical.  Drunks are one thing, the situation might appear to be an easy one to deal with, but most of the time they have their friends with them, so you are dealing with maybe 3 or 4 people.

I've also encountered a couple of trained fighters - most notable was a guy that was a golden glove boxer.  Another was a Judo guy.  Both were tough customers.  

My background is mostly in TKD, but I also have training in Kenpo and Hapkido.  All those styles and techniques have morphed into just what I do... It's hard for me to say, ok this bit is TKD and that bit is Kenpo.

What I wanted to say is that my training has served me well.  I've never been seriously hurt and have always came out still standing.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Once had a man attempt to mug me.  He brandished a knife and demanded my wallet.  I delivered a low side kick to his knee.  He went down and I quickly went on my way.

Aside from that and one or two scuffles, I have made use of tongue fu to handle things.  Works a lot better and it doesn't burden our law enforcement with needless paperwork.  

Daniel


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## oftheherd1

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Why does is have to be either? For one, he answered the question a few posts back: fitness and lifestyle benefits, respect taught to kids, and family time (paraphrasing his response).
> 
> 
> So far as I know, the original reason that the Shaolin monk began training in the arts was because they were out of shape and needed something to do to change that. Whether or not that is accuarte, that is the reason that many people take up a martial art.
> 
> Also, while they may be fighting skills, most people involved in a modern MA practice some extension of Gendai Budo, which is geared towards personal development through the practice of fighting skills and through competition.
> 
> Kendo is gendai budo. Its stated purpose is as follows:
> 
> [SIZE=-1]The purpose of practicing Kendo is:[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]To mold the mind and body,[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]To cultivate a vigorous spirit,[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]And through correct and rigid training,[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]To associate with others with sincerity,[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]This will make one be able: [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]To love his/her country and society,[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]To contribute to the development of culture[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.[/SIZE]
> 
> 
> So while you are learning to sword fight, the purpose is clearly not killing people. Iaido also has a similar self development element to it, inspite of the fact that you are practicing what would be lethal attacks if used against another person with a shinken.
> 
> Taekwondo is not meant to be a pure sport or a pure self defense art, but a 'do' art.
> 
> Daniel


 
I guess I worded that poorly.  I was interested in Puunui's personal experiences, as I thought what he was referring to was more general, true though it might be.  Also, in response to andyjeffries, that wasn't meant to be a challenge.  I am new here.  Although Puunui seems experienced, I don't know his background.

As to your example of Kendo, is it possible that is just an example of a disguise?  Sort of "... let's not look like mean bad guys training to kill people.  Let's look like spiritually good people who choose sword practice as our vehicle to enlightenment?"  Then anyone can practice swordsmanship as a means to being a better spiritual person, never a fighter.  In your example of the sword, it allowed swordsmen to continue to practice, and teach others, without sounding too old school, and in violation of the meiji edicts.  Also, in the East, there is also a propensity for giving a spiritual aspect to everything possible.  It then has greater value.

I don't mean anything I said to belittle anyone's choice of spirituality.  I just prefer mine from the Bible.  You or anyone else is free to choose differently.  We all are free to make our own choices for our own reasons.

Getting back to the direction this thread has taken, rather than as it started, I understand there is physical work in martial arts.  You can get in much better shape.  You can gain self confidence in yourself in threatening situations.  Discipline is necessary to really learn martial arts.  Self discipline as well as submitting to authority is a good life lesson.  Family time?  If all or a lot of the family buys into the training, and its is a part of their family life, nothing wrong with that.  I just didn't know it was a reason for studying martial arts.  I never heard of family boxing schools.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





And regardless of anyone's stated reason, or a teacher's sales technique, martial arts are by defination, war arts.  That is, fighting arts.  I don't think anyone past their first visit to a dojo can miss that.

Finally, I am not sure I disagree profoundly with anyone's position in this thread.  It's all sort of splitting hairs to me.  Martial arts are just that.  In some cases, they have become sporterized; but they are still martial arts.  Are there other benefits besides defense, such as self confidence, disciple, and others already mentioned?  Of course.  So why are we contesting?  Jeesh, maybe I should delete my answer here?  :shrug:  :asian:


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## Rumy73

Dear Kong Soo Do,

First of all, thank you for your service as a law enforcement officer. Secondly, thank you for sharing this real life story and how you used martial arts to successfully resolve it. I like the story because it raises key issues, which can be genericized and used as a tool for applying self defense and/or reactions to emergencies. 

1. Surprise - Things rarely happen expectedly. The poster's partner, a trained deputy, was taken to the ground and in a fight for his life with a prisoner. While this is not going to be the experience of most of us, I have been in situations were things got out of control quickly or witnessed a criminal assault that came on without warning. This can leave even the best of us momentarily dazed. Training and self confidence can push a person out of the role of victim or helpless bystander to that of survivor or rescuer. 

2. Reaction to assualt and surroundings - The assaulted deputy did his best to defend himself, but was hampered by the room size, his coat, etc. However, the deputy's partner realized what was happening and moved quickly to rescue his friend. While we should always be aware of our surroundings, we can't always be in the safest of places. Whether it is on a bus or the subway; perhaps at a sporting event? We can be in a big crowd were something suddenly boils over, bringing us into a fray that we don't want...

3. If this fails, try that - The assaulted officer, although strong and powerful, could not stop the attacker. He persisted with heavy blows that failed to subdue the prisoner. The officer may have been more severally injured or killed, because he was stuck in one kind of tactical response. The rescuing officer, however, tried one move that failed but had the frame of mind to try another tactic - an arm lock. This approach prevailed. Here is lesson that is crucial to anyone in a self defense or emergency: If you persist in something that doesn't work, it could cost your life or that of another. Have multiple tools in your belt, so to speak. 

4. "This situation doesn't apply to me..." Negative. As I have shown, it does apply to all of us. Thanks to the poster for it. I got me thinking a lot. In particular, I've been thinking about self defense in tight quarters. Often we train on a large mat with lots of room to manuever.


----------



## TAGBmark

I've been quite lucky in my experience, living in a large Town in England I generally don't have to worry about people pulling a gun out on me.

However there is still very much a gang culture throughout the United Kingdom, i think Hollywood has mis-intentionally given the world an image of England etc being a predominantely quiet place.

Unfortunately on my way home from work one night (I usually don't clock off until about midnight) i was jumped by two wannabee 'gangsters' threatening to 'cut me' and demanding i hand over my wallet and cellphone.

At first non of my training didn't kick in because A) I'd been at work for 16 hours straight and wasn't exactly with the world, and B) Couldn't believe that these two teenage lads who were so much smaller than me had decided to take me on! (I stand at 6"5 and roughly 16 & 1/2 stone [230lbs])

I punched the lead lad's throat and stamped on his mates knee cap and then legged it! :CTF:

Luckily i was quite close to home, but it's an experience I'll always remember and will hopefully never have to re-live.

I don't think that being a MA makes you invincible, however it definately gives you a higher % chance in a situation.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Manny said:


> Wow... I must think that was many-many years ago.
> Manny


 
Funny how far we've come along since then.  Nowadays we have body armor, Glock 21 .45ACP, 2 spare ammo mags, Taser, O.C. spray, ASP, cuffs, MTM ventilator, 911 tool, glove pouch....and sore backs!


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## Kong Soo Do

TAGBmark said:


> Unfortunately on my way home from work one night (I usually don't clock off until about midnight) i was jumped by two wannabee 'gangsters' threatening to 'cut me' and demanding i hand over my wallet and cellphone.
> 
> At first non of my training didn't kick in because A) I'd been at work for 16 hours straight and wasn't exactly with the world, and B) Couldn't believe that these two teenage lads who were so much smaller than me had decided to take me on! (I stand at 6"5 and roughly 16 & 1/2 stone [230lbs])


 
Two great take home points for all of us to consider in this example;


The attack will probably take place at the most advantageous time to the attacker and the least advantageous to us.  We may be tired, sick, distracted etc yet still be forced into a situation.
Some of these predators come in packs which backs them bold.  And even being physically big isn't always a deterent.
Obstacles, such as the poster listed above, can be overcome and we can successfully defend ourselves even when starting at a disadvantage.  The poster above had a winning mindset.  Rather than ignore the situation, or worry about this youth getting a leg cramp later in life when the wind blew, or wishing it away....he took positive action and survived.
Well done and thank you for sharing.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Rumy73 said:


> Dear Kong Soo Do,
> 
> First of all, thank you for your service as a law enforcement officer. Secondly, thank you for sharing this real life story and how you used martial arts to successfully resolve it. I like the story because it raises key issues, which can be genericized and used as a tool for applying self defense and/or reactions to emergencies.
> 
> 1. Surprise - Things rarely happen expectedly. The poster's partner, a trained deputy, was taken to the ground and in a fight for his life with a prisoner. While this is not going to be the experience of most of us, I have been in situations were things got out of control quickly or witnessed a criminal assault that came on without warning. This can leave even the best of us momentarily dazed. Training and self confidence can push a person out of the role of victim or helpless bystander to that of survivor or rescuer.
> 
> 2. Reaction to assualt and surroundings - The assaulted deputy did his best to defend himself, but was hampered by the room size, his coat, etc. However, the deputy's partner realized what was happening and moved quickly to rescue his friend. While we should always be aware of our surroundings, we can't always be in the safest of places. Whether it is on a bus or the subway; perhaps at a sporting event? We can be in a big crowd were something suddenly boils over, bringing us into a fray that we don't want...
> 
> 3. If this fails, try that - The assaulted officer, although strong and powerful, could not stop the attacker. He persisted with heavy blows that failed to subdue the prisoner. The officer may have been more severally injured or killed, because he was stuck in one kind of tactical response. The rescuing officer, however, tried one move that failed but had the frame of mind to try another tactic - an arm lock. This approach prevailed. Here is lesson that is crucial to anyone in a self defense or emergency: If you persist in something that doesn't work, it could cost your life or that of another. Have multiple tools in your belt, so to speak.
> 
> 4. "This situation doesn't apply to me..." Negative. As I have shown, it does apply to all of us. Thanks to the poster for it. I got me thinking a lot. In particular, I've been thinking about self defense in tight quarters. Often we train on a large mat with lots of room to manuever.


 

Thank you for the post.  It was presented very well.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Rather than ignore the situation, or worry about this youth getting a leg cramp later in life when the wind blew, or wishing it away....he took positive action and survived.Well done and thank you for sharing.




But the question is, could he have accomplished the same thing without causing permanent injury? I would think you of all people would appreciate that, given your strong statements about excessive force in your earlier posts.


----------



## puunui

TAGBmark said:


> At first non of my training didn't kick in because A) I'd been at work for 16 hours straight and wasn't exactly with the world, and B) Couldn't believe that these two teenage lads who were so much smaller than me had decided to take me on! (I stand at 6"5 and roughly 16 & 1/2 stone [230lbs])I punched the lead lad's throat and stamped on his mates knee cap and then legged it!




You mention training, but could you be a little more specific? For example, what is the primary focus of your training? Self defense, sport, recreation, exercise, something else? How much is self defense training is incorporated into the work outs? Are you focusing in on adrenal dump, anti wolfing techniques, gun and knife defense, etc.? Any tournament training stuff? I noticed your name, and had a look at the TAGB webpage, and noticed that there does seem a strong focus on tournament fighting, specifically competition under the WTF rules.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Now, my partner is a large man (6'1 240lbs) with a bodybuilding physique.  Very strong with a BJJ background.




Did your partner have any self defense training, perhaps with you, or was his experience limited to only BJJ? How much training in BJJ did your partner have? 

Also, what if it was you who was taken to the ground, instead of your partner, and there was no one to assist you. What would you have done in the same situation? What are some of the strategies that your Kong Soo Do self defense style employ when taken to the ground by a bigger stronger opponent?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> But the question is, could he have accomplished the same thing without causing permanent injury? I would think you of all people would appreciate that, given your strong statements about excessive force in your earlier posts.


 
That isn't something that either of us can answer since neither of us were there.  From the gentlemans statement, one of the assailants threatened to cut him if he didn't hand over his wallet.  We also need to take into account his location which is the U.K.  Edged weapon altercations are substantially higher than in many other countries.  I've seen video during edged weapon training of people standing at a bus stop and 'gang bangers' walking past and just cutting people for no reason.  It is a serious problem in the U.K.  

Given that type of environment, given the fact that there were two bad guys, given the fact that the threat of deadly force was issued in the commission of a crime...I'd say he handled it well.

As I've stated numerous times, I'm all for using the least amount of force necessary to get the job done.  HOWEVER, I also realize that minimal force isn't necessarily minimum force.  Particularly in a lethal force situation.  At that point, and to be truthful and blunt with you, I could really care less if the attacker gets arthritis in his old age and hurts when it gets cold.  I'm not going to frame my defense on his level of comfort, either then or in the future.  I'm going to do what is necessary to end the attack, as swiftly as possible and in the most appropriate way possible.  



> Did your partner have any self defense training, perhaps with you, or was his experience limited to only BJJ? How much training in BJJ did your partner have?


 
At the time of this altercation he had trained only with Royce Gracie and a local sport BJJ club.  After this altercation he trained with me.  Years later he was attacked by a local semi-professional MMA fighter.  He got sucker punched, but never went down and continued to defend himself until back up arrived.  This was years before we had Tasers and such.



> Also, what if it was you who was taken to the ground, instead of your partner, and there was no one to assist you. What would you have done in the same situation? What are some of the strategies that your Kong Soo Do self defense style employ when taken to the ground by a bigger stronger opponent?


 
Rule number one is obvious; regain your feet as soon as possible.  However, how that is accomplished depends on the situation.  Being on the ground with a subject such as the one in my OP would put me at a deadly force level because of the Officer/subject factors;  he was physically bigger than me, outweighed my by about 50lbs, we were in a confined area of the jail with a potential of around 35 felons that could have assisted if they wished.  At that level, the eyes, ears, throat and groin are viable targets.  I'm not going to waste time going for a triangle, arm bar, kamora etc as that only ties me up on the ground longer.  It is difficult for the bad guy to continue to fight if he can't see or breath.  

Additionally, though not available in any great way in a sparse jail cell, improvised weapons need to be considered; a lamp, a rock or hard object that can be picked up, any object already in hand like car keys etc.  

Also the enviroment itself needs to be considered.  For example, had I been the victim and on ground with this EDP, any type of balance displacement that would put him into the concrete wall or the stainless steel toliet or edge of the metal bunk that's bolted to the wall.  If one finds themself on the ground between a couple of parked cars then the cars themselves can be utilized to slam the attacker into one of them.  Or a wall.  Or furniture.  How about a handful of dirt or sand in the face?  Anything to gain an advantage.

Just some thoughts.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> As I've stated numerous times, I'm all for using the least amount of force necessary to get the job done.  HOWEVER, I also realize that minimal force isn't necessarily minimum force.  Particularly in a lethal force situation.  At that point, and to be truthful and blunt with you, I could really care less if the attacker gets arthritis in his old age and hurts when it gets cold.  I'm not going to frame my defense on his level of comfort, either then or in the future.  I'm going to do what is necessary to end the attack, as swiftly as possible and in the most appropriate way possible.



But if you remember, my situation wasn't a lethal force scenario. No weapon was mentioned, although there were several other homeless in the direct vicinity, including his girlfriend and whoever else. It was under these circumstances that my teacher, GM JI Han Jae, who many credit for founding Hapkido, got upset at the fact that I may have broken that guy's wrist. Would you have broken his wrist, kicked his knee out, poked his eye or crushed his windpipe if you were me? Or would you have done something less violent? 

Back then, GM Ji did teach a lot of lethal methods, no doubt many of which probably got used by the members of the ROK Presidential Protective Forces, who he taught for 18 years. So GM Ji is no stranger to the types of scenarios that you have in your head when you think about self defense or protection of others. But I notice that many of those techniques have been changed to less injurious and less lethal methods, because he may have realized that so many of his American or other non-Korean students fail to take heed of his philosophy against unnecessary injury to others, and ultimately to yourself. There are people out there who really want to hurt others, no matter what the situation or the long term ramifications. It is a different way of looking at what you do, no matter what you think they did to you. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Rule number one is obvious; regain your feet as soon as possible.  However, how that is accomplished depends on the situation.  Being on the ground with a subject such as the one in my OP would put me at a deadly force level because of the Officer/subject factors;  he was physically bigger than me, outweighed my by about 50lbs, we were in a confined area of the jail with a potential of around 35 felons that could have assisted if they wished.  At that level, the eyes, ears, throat and groin are viable targets.  I'm not going to waste time going for a triangle, arm bar, kamora etc as that only ties me up on the ground longer.  It is difficult for the bad guy to continue to fight if he can't see or breath.



In Hapkido, we have ways of attacking someone's eyes but not causing permanent injury. For example, instead of pushing directly on the cornea like Steven Seagal did in his movies, you can accomplish the same effect by instead digging your thumbs into the outside edge of the eyes, hooking your thumbs on the lip on the inside of the eye socket. Much lower probability of permanent injury and yet I will tell you that once you start pressing on that particular pressure point, your assailant will stop whatever he is doing and will be thinking only about his eyes. This is just one example of how to defend yourself without causing permanent injury.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> But if you remember, my situation wasn't a lethal force scenario.


 
Well, I'm not sure how I can put my comments about this without looking like I'm trying to hammer you...


To begin with, your situational awareness was poor.  You allowed two people to come right up behind you at an ATM while withdrawing a large sum of cash.  That is problem number one.
You state this man grabbed your elbow in a 'threatening manner' but never described why you felt threatened.  For all I know, the guy was trying to get your attention for some reason, "hey buddy you dropped a $20".  What was the actual threat?
Your reaction was immediately to break his wrist (at least you claim that you suspect you broke or injured his wrist) and struck him in the throat.  Be it the back of your hand or not, it is still a strike to the throat.  And it was apparently of sufficient force to cause him to stumble back and then fall down.
I asked you several times if you were in fear of your life.  I don't believe you responded to those questions.  I think if you struck him in the throat that you are at deadly force, whether you think so or not.  So why was it necessary to strike him in the throat?  Was his grab of your elbow sufficiently 'threatening' to you to put you in reasonable fear of your life?
Once the man was down, you stated you attempted to kick him in the head with a roundhouse kick to knock him out.  Once again, kicking someone in the head with enough force to knock them out is also enough force to cause great bodily harm and/or death.  So again, that is a deadly force response.  Now to be clear, the situation may very well have required the attempted use of deadly force to stop the threat.  But you were never clear about what he was doing on the ground that made you feel it was necessary to kick him in the head.  If he was intent on continuing his attack on you (if he was even attacking you to begin with), and had the ability (could get up and continue the attack) then you had the right to protect yourself.  But your very nebulous account leaves quite a large gap for questions.
Personally, based only on what you've provided, I think it is questionable that this account happened as you described.  If it was somehow an 'attack' and you were indeed in danger then your instructors concern over his wrist, rather than your safety makes me sick.  I could see him getting upset about you roundhousing the guy in the head on the ground 'just because' but not that you injured his wrist properly defending yourself from an elbow grab.
Since I'm on a roll and probably pissing you off anyway (though that isn't my intention and I'm just trying to go by what little you've provided), the whole, "don't hurt the bad guy so that he doesn't get arthritis later in life and not like you when the weather gets cold" bit is maybe good for an episode of Kung Fu but as far as real life goes....nope.
So I say again; you were either in a real deadly force altercation which justified a broken wrist/strike to the throat/kick to the head on the ground....or you over-reacted big time.  I wasn't there and can ONLY go by the sparse details you've seen fit to provide.  Either way, I'm happy that your safe and hope you have become better aware of your surroundings.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> In Hapkido, we have ways of attacking someone's eyes but not causing permanent injury. For example, instead of pushing directly on the cornea like Steven Seagal did in his movies, you can accomplish the same effect by instead digging your thumbs into the outside edge of the eyes, hooking your thumbs on the lip on the inside of the eye socket. Much lower probability of permanent injury and yet I will tell you that once you start pressing on that particular pressure point, your assailant will stop whatever he is doing and will be thinking only about his eyes. This is just one example of how to defend yourself without causing permanent injury.


 
If God forbid you should find yourself on the ground under an EDP trying to hurt you and you can pull this off then I say great!  More power to you.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> So I say again; you were either in a real deadly force altercation which justified a broken wrist/strike to the throat/kick to the head on the ground....or you over-reacted big time.  I wasn't there and can ONLY go by the sparse details you've seen fit to provide.  Either way, I'm happy that your safe and hope you have become better aware of your surroundings.



And I say again, I gave the same facts to both a police officer and prosecutor and they both disagree with you, stating that it was a no arrest, no prosecution scenario, for a variety of reasons. Also, it was one person at the ATM, the girlfriend (I think that is what she was) stepped in after he stumbled back; she wasn't at the ATM machine, never said she was there. Seems like you are the only one who is overreacting.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> If God forbid you should find yourself on the ground under an EDP trying to hurt you and you can pull this off then I say great!  More power to you.



Actually it is easier to feel for and hang on to that outside edge of the eye sockets, than generally trying to poke someone in the eye or pressing your thumb into their cornea. Try it and experiment for yourself if you don't believe me. Hapkido has all sorts of techniques like that.


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> And I say again, I gave the same facts to both a police officer and prosecutor and they both disagree with you, stating that it was a no arrest, no prosecution scenario, for a variety of reasons.


 
Well...okay 



> Also, it was one person at the ATM, the girlfriend (I think that is what she was) stepped in after he stumbled back; she wasn't at the ATM machine, never said she was there.


 
Either way, your situational awareness was not at a level it should have been. You still allowed a man to come up behind you and grab your elbow while conducting an ATM transation. Not good. But that is okay as well for the purpose of this thread as it provides things for all of us to consider. 



> Actually it is easier to feel for and hang on to that outside edge of the eye sockets, than generally trying to poke someone in the eye or pressing your thumb into their cornea.


 
And how do you know this may I ask? How many times have you fought for your safety against a determined, resisting attacker and you've done either?


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> To begin with, your situational awareness was poor.  You allowed two people to come right up behind you at an ATM while withdrawing a large sum of cash.  That is problem number one.



It was actually one person who came up from the side of me, not two. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> You state this man grabbed your elbow in a 'threatening manner' but never described why you felt threatened.  For all I know, the guy was trying to get your attention for some reason, "hey buddy you dropped a $20".  What was the actual threat?



No I didn't drop a $20. What preceded the grab was he came up and asked if I could help him out. I responded by telling him to step off and leave me alone. He then grabbed the sleeve of my jacket at the elbow, and asked again in a more threatening manner, "I said, can you help me out?"




Kong Soo Do said:


> Your reaction was immediately to break his wrist (at least you claim that you suspect you broke or injured his wrist) and struck him in the throat.  Be it the back of your hand or not, it is still a strike to the throat.  And it was apparently of sufficient force to cause him to stumble back and then fall down.



My reaction was not to break his wrist but to do a elbow defense #1 on him. As for the strike to the throat, if you one have one type, then I can understand how you would think that a strike to the throat is a strike to the throat. But just like eye attacks, there are many different ways, at least to a Hapkido practitioner. Hapkidoin have more tools in their bag than just a hammer. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> I asked you several times if you were in fear of your life.  I don't believe you responded to those questions.  I think if you struck him in the throat that you are at deadly force, whether you think so or not.  So why was it necessary to strike him in the throat?  Was his grab of your elbow sufficiently 'threatening' to you to put you in reasonable fear of your life?



I wouldn't say I was in fear for my life. But it was a physical confrontational situation. The strike in the throat was to get him off of me. It is the second half of that technique. He was a homeless guy and smelled of urine and other stench. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Once the man was down, you stated you attempted to kick him in the head with a roundhouse kick to knock him out.  Once again, kicking someone in the head with enough force to knock them out is also enough force to cause great bodily harm and/or death.  So again, that is a deadly force response.



Yeah, but I didn't kick him in the head, remember? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Now to be clear, the situation may very well have required the attempted use of deadly force to stop the threat.  But you were never clear about what he was doing on the ground that made you feel it was necessary to kick him in the head.  If he was intent on continuing his attack on you (if he was even attacking you to begin with), and had the ability (could get up and continue the attack) then you had the right to protect yourself.  But your very nebulous account leaves quite a large gap for questions.



Not to the police officer and prosecutor from the area that I spoke with. They have better things to do than prosecute this type of case. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Since I'm on a roll and probably pissing you off anyway (though that isn't my intention and I'm just trying to go by what little you've provided), the whole, "don't hurt the bad guy so that he doesn't get arthritis later in life and not like you when the weather gets cold" bit is maybe good for an episode of Kung Fu but as far as real life goes....nope.



Maybe one day you will come to realize the difference between your position and mine. Then again, maybe not. And you are not pissing me off, but it is a little humorous how you flip flop on the idea of "excessive force". Go ahead, arrest me and see if you can justify the arrest beyond a reasonable doubt. If your supervisor doesn't quash it, the prosecutor will.  And good luck serving those homeless people with a trial subpeona.  In fact, good luck trying to get their real name, much less their ID. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> So I say again; you were either in a real deadly force altercation which justified a broken wrist/strike to the throat/kick to the head on the ground....or you over-reacted big time.  I wasn't there and can ONLY go by the sparse details you've seen fit to provide.  Either way, I'm happy that your safe and hope you have become better aware of your surroundings.



I didn't kick him in the head. And there are all kinds of strikes to the throat, although it sounds like you only have one type. And maybe next time I don't have to injure his wrist. But I give a lot of details. And I was aware of my surroundings. 

Any comments on the way I snatched the pebble from that scalper's hand? Or should I have kicked him in the knee instead?


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Either way, your situational awareness was not at a level it should have been. You still allowed a man to come up behind you and grab your elbow while conducting an ATM transation. Not good. But that is okay as well for the purpose of this thread as it provides things for all of us to consider.



Again, he didn't come up from behind me. He came from the side. You make it sound like he clubbed me from behind and ran off with my money, which did not happen.




Kong Soo Do said:


> And how do you know this may I ask? How many times have you fought for your safety against a determined, resisting attacker and you've done either?



Actually, I've fought many times against a determined, resisting attacker, more than you will ever know. I actually get calmer the more the predicament gets hairier. Perhaps I will turn the corner and get cut, shot, beat up, bludgeoned to death because my "situational awareness" was not up to par, but it hasn't happened yet. But you can always hope, right? 

We have experimented with it as realistically as possible, without actually hurting someone. To me, it is easier to hang on to that edge than not. Try it if you do not believe me. But if that is not good enough for you, if you wish to take everything in the light most disfavorable to me, then that is your business. The fact of the matter is, I am still here, I was never injured, arrested, prosecuted or much less thrown in jail, despite your monday morning quarterbacking to the contrary, about how what I did left much to be desired.


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## Kong Soo Do

> Perhaps I will turn the corner and get cut, shot, beat up, bludgeoned to  death because my "situational awareness" was not up to par, but it  hasn't happened yet. But you can always hope, right?



Do you really think this?  Seriously, do you really think I would hope you get hurt or worse?  Were having a discussion, and to me that is all.  If you're thinking I have ill feelings towards you you're incorrect.  

I thought about your last post on the previous page.  I was going to come back with a point for point commentary showing you that you weren't doing yourself any favors with the added details.  But your taking all this way to personal and way to serious.  So I'm going to reverse gears and simply say that I'm glad you are alive and well after all of your altercations to be able to be apart of this board.  In fact, since you've mentioned that you've had many altercations, I'd like you to share them if you like.  Put in the points from the altercations that you think are important for people to know and train for.  After all, that is the purpose of the thread.

It's late, I'm tired and I'm going to bed.  Peace


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Do you really think this?  Seriously, do you really think I would hope you get hurt or worse?



If I or a "sport guy" like me did get hurt and failed to defend himself in a self defense situation, it would tend to validate your position. As it stands, I pretty much invalidate your assumptions about "sport" types, in kind of the same way that I invalidated your historical connection to Mabuni Sensei. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> In fact, since you've mentioned that you've had many altercations, I'd like you to share them if you like.  Put in the points from the altercations that you think are important for people to know and train for.  After all, that is the purpose of the thread.



Your turn. Do you have any situations that you would like to share that didn't occur when you were on duty and you used Korean Martial Arts to defend yourself? That would be more applicable to the majority of Korean Martial Arts practitioners than the inmate story, because it would be more real, at least to them.


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## troubleenuf

OK .... you two need to find a new hobby.  

So the one time I actually had to use force to defend myself was when a I had only started training.  I was a lowly yellow belt and a guy takes a big haymaker at me.  I hit him once with a right straight he dropped like a rock and it was over but for the police report.  Worse part of it was I thought I killed the guy.  He was not breathing very good and lost a few teeth.  Im thinking he gave up drinking after that... or at least he should have.  Long shot was, I was justified in defending myself and it was his fault for attacking me.  The police thought it was kind of funny as the guy had a rep for picking fights and they thought it was about time he got what was coming to him.  

Now I did have some other situations restraining some kids in the high school I worked at but nothing serious.


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## TAGBmark

puunui said:


> You mention training, but could you be a little more specific? For example, what is the primary focus of your training? Self defense, sport, recreation, exercise, something else? How much is self defense training is incorporated into the work outs? Are you focusing in on adrenal dump, anti wolfing techniques, gun and knife defense, etc.? Any tournament training stuff? I noticed your name, and had a look at the TAGB webpage, and noticed that there does seem a strong focus on tournament fighting, specifically competition under the WTF rules.



The TAGB are a seperate entity to the ITF & WTF, however the competition rules are very similar to the ITF.

The training sessions vary from class to class, although we always do 30-45 mins of sparring per lesson on average. The rest of a session's are made up of any variety of things, heavy bag work, pad work, Patterns, Self Defence and Circuit training/Drills.

We don't focus on defending against gun's in our classes as firearms are illegal in the UK and very difficult to get a hold of, yes occassionally people will get a hold of them but the only time that seems to happen is when serious organised crime is involved.

The self defence/protection training varies, there is a big focus on calming a situation down through body language and stance (For instance using your Fence); after that it varies, punch/kick defence, grabs, if you end up on your a*se, milling etc - they generally teach what has worked for them when working on the doors.


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## andyjeffries

TAGBmark said:


> We don't focus on defending against gun's in our classes as firearms are illegal in the UK and very difficult to get a hold of, yes occassionally people will get a hold of them but the only time that seems to happen is when serious organised crime is involved.



REALLY!?

28 gun crimes committed in UK every day

_"Children as young as 11 or 12 are carrying guns," he said. "The sad reality is that it is becoming so routinely reported by the press that a child has been shot that the shock value has been eliminated."_

Also considering this report it would seem that there were about 18,000 major crimes where firearms were reported to be involved in the year 2006-2007 including burglary (and surely not all burglary is "serious organised crime" related).

While I agree with you that it's not a frequent enough occurence to be worth training for in the UK, I disagree that it's that rare an occurrence and just related to mobs/gangs.


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## Daniel Sullivan

oftheherd1 said:


> I guess I worded that poorly. I was interested in Puunui's personal experiences, as I thought what he was referring to was more general, true though it might be. Also, in response to andyjeffries, that wasn't meant to be a challenge. I am new here. Although Puunui seems experienced, I don't know his background.


Actually, I just thought you had missed his post. 



oftheherd1 said:


> As to your example of Kendo, is it possible that is just an example of a disguise? Sort of "... let's not look like mean bad guys training to kill people. Let's look like spiritually good people who choose sword practice as our vehicle to enlightenment?" Then anyone can practice swordsmanship as a means to being a better spiritual person, never a fighter. In your example of the sword, it allowed swordsmen to continue to practice, and teach others, without sounding too old school, and in violation of the meiji edicts. Also, in the East, there is also a propensity for giving a spiritual aspect to everything possible. It then has greater value.


Don't think anything is hidden.  The purpose of kendo was penned in 1975, but by the time kendo came about, swordsmanship was on the way out.  Japan's military was modernizing and the riffle had become the weapon of the modern soldier, as it had everywhere else.  Kendo was, and to my knowledge, still is, used as part of Japanese police training.  But the benefits to the police have little to do with improving their police skills and more to do with cultivating a vigorous spirit and contributing to improved stamina.  That and its fun!



oftheherd1 said:


> I don't mean anything I said to belittle anyone's choice of spirituality. I just prefer mine from the Bible. You or anyone else is free to choose differently. We all are free to make our own choices for our own reasons.


You and I both.



oftheherd1 said:


> Getting back to the direction this thread has taken, rather than as it started, I understand there is physical work in martial arts. You can get in much better shape. You can gain self confidence in yourself in threatening situations. Discipline is necessary to really learn martial arts. Self discipline as well as submitting to authority is a good life lesson. Family time? If all or a lot of the family buys into the training, and its is a part of their family life, nothing wrong with that. I just didn't know it was a reason for studying martial arts. I never heard of family boxing schools.


Family time in martial arts means parents bringing their school agekids to a later, but usually late afternoon/early evening class, where students tend to be a little older and mom or dad is required to discipline and keep their own kid in line during the class.  The main idea of a family class is to get either the parent or the kid hooked.  Frequently, the kids quit after black belt or sometime along the way due to the call of other activities, but often the parent will stay in the class.  My younger son and I got involved with the school where I have been for the past eight years because he wanted to take kendo and we couldn't make the kids class due to my work schedule (I have full custody of my kids, so there was no wife to cart them around while I was at work.  Older son drives now.)



oftheherd1 said:


> And regardless of anyone's stated reason, or a teacher's sales technique, martial arts are by defination, war arts. That is, fighting arts. I don't think anyone past their first visit to a dojo can miss that.


That may be what the term means, but taekwondo and frankly, most empty handed MA were never war arts.  The term 'martial art' is a western term.  They didn't call karate bujutsu and taekwondo, while practiced by Korean military, is not a war art.  Anymore than boxing and wrestling are, even though those are both practiced by US military personel.  



oftheherd1 said:


> Finally, I am not sure I disagree profoundly with anyone's position in this thread. It's all sort of splitting hairs to me. Martial arts are just that. In some cases, they have become sporterized; but they are still martial arts. Are there other benefits besides defense, such as self confidence, disciple, and others already mentioned? Of course. So why are we contesting? Jeesh, maybe I should delete my answer here? :shrug: :asian:


Technically, they are martial ways, though personally, I'm not contesting anyone.  I think that sport is just fine.  I do however, think that training for sport and training for self defense are two different specialities, but there is room for both in most MA programs.

Daniel


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> If I or a "sport guy" like me did get hurt and failed to defend himself in a self defense situation, it would tend to validate your position. As it stands, I pretty much invalidate your assumptions about "sport" types, in kind of the same way that I invalidated your historical connection to Mabuni Sensei.



Actually you didn't.  You take Hapkido from your own statements.  Hapkido is widely recognized as one of the more SD related Korean arts, though it depends from school to school.  You did not use sport techniques on this bad guy.  Unless there is a competition out there that I'm unaware of that allows wrist locks, strikes to the throat and kicks to the head after the opponent has gone to the ground???

As far as Mabuni, I'd say it all depends on who you want to believe, the Jidokwan or Hanmukwan.  I didn't buy your whole, 'this is what he was really saying bit'.  But it doesn't really matter and has nothing to do with the thread.



> Your turn



Okay, but I'm going to use another on-duty altercation.  Although you haven't made to connection of the applicability yet, others have 

Escorting a drunk into the processing area of the jail (where they do the booking, prints, photos etc).  At this point he's a 'happy drunk' and he's complying with my escort hold which is simply one hand on the elbow and the other on his wrist.  It isn't a lock or anything, rather a low level 'come-along' for compliant individuals that allows you to have your hands on them in case they go non-compliant.

Well...he becomes non-compliant.  I knew he was drunk from the smell.  What I didn't know is that he was also a trusty of modern chemistry.  I think meth if I remember right.  Anyway, he stops in his tracks like his feet are nailed to the floor.  I'm thinking, 'well...here we go'.  He stiffens up his entire body, so try as I might, I can't get him in an arm lock.  Which was momentarily frustrating because I'm suppose to be the guy at work that wraps them up like a pretzel.  Well...not today.  At this point (I'm talking about two seconds into the incident) I'm looking for a distraction strike so that I can re-try an arm lock of some type.  I never got the chance.  He wheels around with a haymaker from his other hand.  I still have a grip on the other arm and don't see the incoming punch but I do feel he body movements.  Since this is something we've trained for I know there is a punch coming even though I haven't seen it yet.  I raise my right arm into a cover we call a 'shield block' which catches his punch on the outside of my right arm.  I then chop down with an edge-of-hand strike to the side of the neck (brachial plexus), followed up be the same strike with my other hand on the other side of his neck.  Since both my hands were already around his upper body I grab the back of his head Muey Thai style and give him a knee spike into the solar plexus.  He goes down and with the help of the Deputies in the processing area we cuff him up.

Now, my take home points to offer;


Never take a drunk for granted, they may turn their behavior on a dime.  I was Mr. I.P.C. with this guy but at some point he just stopped being nice.
My specialty is locks.  But there was no way I was going to get a lock on this joker at this time and place. Although momentarily frustrated I couldn't pull of one of my signature moves, I shook it off and made the decision to do something else.
By training hands-on as much as I have, I knew what he was trying to do without actually seeing it.  That isn't magic.  The body commonly moves only so many ways.  When you're familiar with that you can anticipate probable actions.  For example, a boxer looks for the dipping of the opponents shoulder before a punch.  It is simply body language and knowing the language.  It isn't difficult and I think it is good for anyone to train even if their focus is other than SD.
I trained for those two edge-of-hand strikes and just did them instinctively.  Under duress, those simple gross motor strikes just came back automatically.  Nothing fancy.
The knee spike is also a gross motor skill that I've trained for as a conclusion.
There are areas of the body that are generally better to strike than others.  The side of the neck, with appropriate force, and the solar plexus are high % areas.  In my situation, due to this individual being taller than me and our body position, I had no choice but to use an edge-of-hand to the sides of his neck.  But it can cause damage depending on the force in addition to the stunning effect.  In this case it didn't, but would have been justified if it had due to Officer/subject factors and his level of resistance.  But taking into account the advice Puunui has offered, if one can use the inside or outside of the forearm for this strike, it is perhaps even more effective and lessens the change of actual damage.  In otherwords, the force of the strike is spread out over a larger area and doesn't 'penetrate' as much.  I would have preferred this over the EOH but couldn't due to several factors as mentioned.


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## Grenadier

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

This thread has been moved to the Korean Martial Arts - General forum. 

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## Kong Soo Do

This demonstrates a principle called *CWCT* (closest  weapon closest target).  As I did a shield block on his hayaker, my  right hand was raised high in the air close to his upper body/head  area.  I simply brought the hand down into the strike.  My 'closest'  weapon was my hand the the closest 'target' was the side of his neck.


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## ATACX GYM

puunui said:


> But you didn't answer the question: WHY is self defense training so important, if as the other poster stated, the majority of students will never get into a self defense situation in their entire lives?
> 
> PS: Most dojang neither emphasize self defense nor sport, but rather cater to what the overwhelming majority of students seem to want from a martial arts experience today -- which is exercise, health, discipline of mind, respect taught to children, and family time. The "sport vs. self defense" dichotomy really does not apply. And to tell you the truth, I don't think it ever applied. It was never "either or" of those two choices.



The SD mindset is utterly vital because it is one of the primary roots and fonts for excellent achievement and quality character for human beings regardless of the culture,gender,age and challenges that life throws at us,in whatever venue. The difference between the SD mindset and the sports mindset is that the sportive mindset is the range and depth of stimuli: the sportive mindset's stimuli peaks at about half of the intensity level of the SD mindset. This difference oftentimes has a direct impact on one's performance and character quality throughout one's entire life. Both the SD and sport mindset take execise,health,discipline,respect,family and more to very very high levels,if done properly...so both sport and SD mindsets encompass the laudable activities that you mention.

On to a few instances that come to mind that are real word examples of me using or observing the use of Korean martial arts:

1) My favorite. I was coming to pick my children up from school--something that I normally don't do but we had a family function to attend directly after school--and as I pulled up,my daughters and neice sprinted up to me and told me that my son was being accosted by bullies. As all of these girls are pretty capable martial artists, 2 of the 3 of them being older than my son--the best elementary school martial artists in the Long Beach Unified School division,in my highly biased opinion lol--I was a bit surprised that the girls weren't with him or hadn't alerted the school officials. Turns out that when I arrived I saw that the school officials were busy directing several hundred kids and a dozen or so animated parents who were parked in the teachers' parking lot and weren't leaving because they thought that they had a right to be there (don't ask me why,never found out). The school staff had been slashed to the bone due to Arnold's gubernatorial fiscal policies (I live in CA),so the security and other personnel which usually absorbed and dealt with this kind of thing without a problem wasn't there.The current staff--at just barely more than half of their previous numbers--was quite simply overwhelmed.

That's when I espied my son being heckled by nearly a half-dozen larger older boys.I didn't catch their words,but their body language was aggressive and threatening.Closed fists waving. They'd gotten within half an arm's length of my son. I started walking toward him with the intent to deescalate the situation,when my son saw me coming,bent down to pick up his backpack...and that's when one of the bigger boys sought to push him and another one tried to cuff him on the back of the head.

Smooth as can be,my son scooped his backpack from the ground and morphed that movement into a dive roll on cement which he executed flawlessly.He leaped clear of the half circle of bullies,tucked and rolled and came to his feet maybe 10 yards from me."Hey Daddy!" My powerfully built son smiled at the same time that other witnesses--adults and kids,and even a few of the bullies--exclaimed:"whoa!"  I hugged him and looked at the bullies.They hadn't moved an inch. I gave each of them THE LOOK.They got the message.I informed the vice-principal--a no-nonsene Latina--and she immediately sent the bullies into the main office to await punishment and to call their parents. My son and I walked to my SUV. "Did you see that they tried to hit you,son?" "Yeah Daddy," my son responded without the least worry or concern,"Sam and Clyde and those guys TRIED to hit me,but it didn't work." "So why didn't you hit them back,son?" "'Cause you said that if nobody hit me,don't hit them.Plus you said that using my martial arts on somebody for the wrong reason makes me a bully and I don't wanna be a bully.Clyde and Sam didn't hit me...they missed. So I didn't have a reason to beat them up.And you told the principal and she took care of it soooo...I was thinking I could play some Mortal Kombat in your car while we go to Auntie's house."  "Next time,son,you tell the principal yourself so it never gets to a point where a bunch of boys are trying to mess with you in the first place.Okay?" "Promise,Dad. Betcha Dallas beats Miami in Game 2(NBA Finals talk..and turned out he was right). But Miami is prolly gonna win the whole thing. But Sub-Zero is cooler than all of them though."

I love him soooo much.Lol.


2. THE ANIME ANGELS

That's what my neice,my daughters,their Korean friend Sun and their Latin friend Alicia call themselves.I always thought it was their name for their group which absolutely loves anime,reading,and their online gaming escapades (which it is) but I had an opportunity to observe them work as a unit together when some neighborhood girls tried to jump my youngest daughter (who'd been entrusted with their video games while the older girls played with their friends) and make off with a few hundred dollars of their beloved video games.

I came upon the scene when the conflict had already escalated to the physical level.It was quickly over with.There was a chorus of kiyaps as: I saw Princess plant a lead leg round house to the stomach of one girl,folding her like origami.My neice--whose nickname is BODACIOUS--nailed another girl with a jump sidekick,Sun drilled another girl with a spin kick to the back of the girl's neck and Alicia landed a backfist jump switch kick to the stomach-face of another girl.Before I could do anything,my daughter ran and tackled another girl who'd seized my youngest daughter--who's only 6--by her hair and was smacking her in the face. My daughter and the older bigger girl she tackled rolled on the ground for a second,disentangled,and scrambled to their feet.Princess got to her feet faster with a kip up that she instantly transformed into front kick which made glancing contact to her opponent's thigh but followed with a devastating tornado kick which smacked home on the left cheek of the girl and dropped her like a sack of rocks.

I comforted my youngest daughter,and when she stopped crying I sent THE ANIME ANGELS to my daughters' mother's house.I was joined by park staff and we checked the victims of THE ANIME ANGELS to be sure that the girls weren't badly hurt. Bumps,bruises,a missing tooth (tornado kick) but nothing serious. These girls had done a few rowdy things before,so the overall vibe I got was:"You girls deserved that beatdown" from staff and witnesses. I was of like mind,so I exited. The girls' parents didn't really press the issue; I agreed not to consider any police charges if they agreed not to press me to pay for the tooth that my Princess kicked out,and that was that. Almost never does a scrape with children rise to the level of legal matters between parents in my neck of the woods.

3. THE SCRAP AT THE DRIVE THRU DAIRY

I was at the local dairy standing waiting in line behind this guy when he starts in on the cashier.Seems like he was swearing that he was being overcharged. The cashier is wife to the store's co-owner;she's a sweet but strong Latina whom I've known for over a decade now.She doesn't overcharge people. Well,this guy was really getting worked up.His buddy gets out of his car from the drive thru window to see what's going on,takes in the argument,literally says:"**** this wetback *****" snatches the milk and sweets on the bar and starts walking away with it. As Madre (that's what we call her) said:"I'm calling the police" and turned to reach for the phone,the first jerk reached across the bar and grabbed her by the throat with his right hand,put his left forefinger in her face and hissed:"You ain't doin ****,*****!"

I chopped his right arm at the bicep,a shocking blow.I'm not a big guy at 5'7" 158 but I can bench double my bodyweight,squat quadruple my bodyweight,can slam dunk,have Olympic level 400 speed,etc. and I don't lift weights.He yelped as he released her and I snaked my left arm under his arm into a half-Nelson,banged his face off of the cashier bar's hard surface as I fed his right arm behind his back and applied a painful wristlock,which elicited a loud howl of shocked agony. The guy with the food read the situation,reversed course away from his car with the running engine and toward me and his friend,I hurled his friend into the oncoming bad guy and dropped them both with the same sweep kick.Lol.I stomped on the back of the idiot on top of the idiot on the bottom,reached behind my back like I had something in my back pocket which was more menacing than the wallet that I actually was gripping,and informed them:"You are under arrest for disturbing the peace,attempted robbery and assault.Any further resistance by you will result in a corresponding escalation of force." The combination of the shock of my martial arts skill,my verbal judo and use of police jargon was enough to keep the stupid bad guys down and docile until the real cops arrived,and cuffed em.Lol.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> But you didn't answer the question: WHY is self defense training so important, if as the other poster stated, the majority of students will never get into a self defense situation in their entire lives?
> 
> PS: Most dojang neither emphasize self defense nor sport, but rather cater to what the overwhelming majority of students seem to want from a martial arts experience today -- which is exercise, health, discipline of mind, respect taught to children, and family time. The "sport vs. self defense" dichotomy really does not apply. And to tell you the truth, I don't think it ever applied. It was never "either or" of those two choices.


I know that this was not directed at me, but I'd like to comment on it if you don't mind.  

I think that it is important to at least connect the techniques to realistic self defense situations, though I don't think that the classes have to be entirely, or even mostly SD based.

By and large, I am a huge proponent of repetition of technique and of forms.  A sparring element is always fun and I think that it is vital because it allows students to work with a resisting opponent.  

Having said that, if a school promotes self defense in its literature, then they darned well better deliver. 

Daniel


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## mastercole

tinker1 said:


> I'm a biker.  Not a 1%er - but I do hang around with those guys from time to time.  I go into "biker bars" all the time - for the music and the fun.



Korean martial arts, SD, Rock n' Roll and 1%ers

Over the years I was fortunate enough to have made friends with Dickie Peterson, bass player/singer/co-founder of the pioneer hard rock band Blue Cheer (if you never heard of them and you like hard blues-rock, you must check them out!) We would go see them when they came to Cleveland, Detroit, DC, NYC, etc.

The first time I saw Blue Cheer in Cleveland, they had a big 1%er logo on their drum set. I thought that was interesting. I started to notice that as the crowd packed into the venue, it seemed half of the folks were HA's.  Sure enough Dickie later told me that Blue Cheer along with Big Brother & the Holding Company (Janis Joplin) were the official house bands for a California based HA club. Being in a rough area of Cleveland, that made me feel kind of safe, in a strange kind of way. Then right after the show in the parking lot, I guess two guys got into it with a 1%er, wow, it was like bee's to honey, must have been 15+ other 1%er's taking a piece out of those two guys, it was a brutal, scary serious self defense situation that turned out real bad for the two guys. 

As soon as I saw that going down, I told the people I was with to immediately follow me, using the logic I teach in class. We walked around about the block to get to my car, avoiding the situation.

That's Korean Martial Arts in action.


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## Kong Soo Do

ATACX GYM said:


> Smooth as can be,my son scooped his backpack from the ground and morphed that movement into a dive roll on cement which he executed flawlessly.He leaped clear of the half circle of bullies,tucked and rolled and came to his feet maybe 10 yards from me."Hey Daddy!"...."Did you see that they tried to hit you,son?" "Yeah Daddy," my son responded without the least worry or concern,"Sam and Clyde and those guys TRIED to hit me,but it didn't work." "So why didn't you hit them back,son?" "'Cause you said that if nobody hit me,don't hit them.Plus you said that using my martial arts on somebody for the wrong reason makes me a bully and I don't wanna be a bully.Clyde and Sam didn't hit me...they missed. So I didn't have a reason to beat them up.


 
You've got good reason to be proud of your boy, he's got a good head on his shoulders.  Thank you for sharing this


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## puunui

TAGBmark said:


> The TAGB are a seperate entity to the ITF & WTF, however the competition rules are very similar to the ITF.
> 
> The training sessions vary from class to class, although we always do 30-45 mins of sparring per lesson on average. The rest of a session's are made up of any variety of things, heavy bag work, pad work, Patterns, Self Defence and Circuit training/Drills.
> 
> We don't focus on defending against gun's in our classes as firearms are illegal in the UK and very difficult to get a hold of, yes occassionally people will get a hold of them but the only time that seems to happen is when serious organised crime is involved.
> 
> The self defence/protection training varies, there is a big focus on calming a situation down through body language and stance (For instance using your Fence); after that it varies, punch/kick defence, grabs, if you end up on your a*se, milling etc - they generally teach what has worked for them when working on the doors.



Sounds like your dojang is like most dojang out there, a balance of everything. I'll take your self defense story as one which supports the idea that you don't need to train in a specialized self defense program in order to learn self defense. Thanks.


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## puunui

ATACX GYM said:


> The SD mindset is utterly vital because it is one of the primary roots and fonts for excellent achievement and quality character for human beings regardless of the culture,gender,age and challenges that life throws at us,in whatever venue. The difference between the SD mindset and the sports mindset is that the sportive mindset is the range and depth of stimuli: the sportive mindset's stimuli peaks at about half of the intensity level of the SD mindset. This difference oftentimes has a direct impact on one's performance and character quality throughout one's entire life. Both the SD and sport mindset take execise,health,discipline,respect,family and more to very very high levels,if done properly...so both sport and SD mindsets encompass the laudable activities that you mention.




Personally, I don't see any difference between the "sportive" mindset and the "SD" mindset. If anything, I think it is easier to defend yourself against the normal situation (like your son's, weak kids with weak skills trying to assert themselves) than competition, because the higher you go, the harder it is.


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## puunui

ATACX GYM said:


> Betcha Dallas beats Miami in Game 2(NBA Finals talk..and turned out he was right). But Miami is prolly gonna win the whole thing.




Personally, that's a hard choice for me, because I like both teams, for different reasons. Both Dirk and Lebron are on a mission, Dirk trying to win at least one championship before he retires, and Lebron trying to surpass his (former?) idol Michael Jordan in every way, including number of championships. It's like Rocky vs. Apollo Creed.


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## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> As soon as I saw that going down, I told the people I was with to immediately follow me, using the logic I teach in class. We walked around about the block to get to my car, avoiding the situation.



Best way not to get hit is not to be there in the first place.  

Has anyone ever seen the movie "Tremors"?  That's the one with the giant underground monster worms that attack the people in the valley.  There is a great scene which has 'Vale' and 'Earl' are trapped on top of a huge boulder in the middle of the desert as one of the monsters circles around underground like a shark waiting for them.  Earl says, 'We need a plan".  Vale shoots back, "I say we just run like hell"!  And Earl say, "Run!!!....running isn't a plan...running is what you do when the plan fails"!  It's a silly example but I use it in our classes as people tend to remember it because of the humor.  I tell the student that it is the same thing with fighting.  Fighting isn't the plan, fighting is what you do when the plan fails.  SD happens long before we have to go hands on with someone.  SD is;



Having situational awareness.
Layering your defenses i.e. the security of your home.
Avoidance.
Evasion or tactical retreat.
De-esculation.
Good call in the above quote.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Actually you didn't.  You take Hapkido from your own statements.  Hapkido is widely recognized as one of the more SD related Korean arts, though it depends from school to school.  You did not use sport techniques on this bad guy.



That's right, I didn't. So how do you know other "sport guys" wouldn't do the same thing, use non-sport techniques in a self defense situation? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as Mabuni, I'd say it all depends on who you want to believe, the Jidokwan or Hanmukwan.  I didn't buy your whole, 'this is what he was really saying bit'.



It has nothing to do with I say he say, it has to do with the fact that Dr. Yoon, who is your connection to Mabuni Sensei, in fact was a heavy competition advocate, not a self defense advocate, as was Mabuni Sensei. It is no coincidence that the photo with Mabuni Sensei wearing sparring equipment is the exact same equipment that Dr. Yoon used when he brought the exchange team from Korea to fight in Japan, against students from his old Kanbukan organization. Dr. Yoon was a sport guy, as was Mabuni Sensei, irrespective of what Mabuni Sensei's experience as a police officer in Okinawa when he was 18 years old, back in early 20th century. By the time Dr. Yoon trained with him, he was busy working on a competition format for Karatedo. 





Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, but I'm going to use another on-duty altercation.  Although you haven't made to connection of the applicability yet, others have



I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. I get the fact that this is a "real" situation and that you can learn from it. What I don't think YOU get is the fact that what is a real situation for YOU isn't necessarily a real situation for the average martial arts student learning in a strip mall in USA suburbia. The fact that I specifically asked you for a non-LEO example and that you could not come up with one only underlines that particular point. You get paid to put yourself at risk. That is your job and your reality, just like soldiers voluntarily join the infantry and get sent to Afghanistan or Iraq and risk death and permanent injury. But the cardio kickboxing mom who is dropping off little johnny to his tkd tiny tigers class in her brand new mercedes suv, isn't in that same situation. She made a different choice than you or the soldier did. So maybe her martial arts training and her son's doesn't have to focus so much on self defense, that maybe some exercise and discipline and family time is and should be, ok too. If you want to be a special ops guy, that's great, but some join the army simply to get the GI Bill and be an accountant, or lawyer, or doctor, or cook, and so they don't need a ranger tab or eib. 

That's all.


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## mastercole

puunui said:


> It has nothing to do with I say he say, it has to do with the fact that Dr. Yoon, who is your connection to Mabuni Sensei, in fact was a heavy competition advocate, not a self defense advocate, as was Mabuni Sensei. It is no coincidence that the photo with Mabuni Sensei wearing sparring equipment is the exact same equipment that Dr. Yoon used when he brought the exchange team from Korea to fight in Japan, against students from his old Kanbukan organization. Dr. Yoon was a sport guy, as was Mabuni Sensei, irrespective of what Mabuni Sensei's experience as a police officer in Okinawa when he was 18 years old, back in early 20th century. By the time Dr. Yoon trained with him, he was busy working on a competition format for Karatedo.



This is true. Chong Woo Lee and other Jidokwan seniors often talked about their "friendship exchanges" in Japan. There is a story that Chong Woo Lee kicked a Japanese competitor with a front kick, with the toes curled under. Seniors said it broke through the old bamboo hogu and killed the guy.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

After I logged off last night a thought struck me that I wanted to share in the thread.  Although not a KMA thing, it may have some application regardless of whether or not one trains with an edged weapon.

Back when I was in the service I had a situation arise on my first trip back from overseas.  On the way back to the families house from the base we stopped at a diner for a cup of coffee and a bathroom break.  It was around midnight give or take.  As we walked to the car in the parking lot we heard a crash down the road.  A car had hit a telephone poll about 50 yards or so from the diner's parking lot.  I was the first one to get there.  I was only about 19 or 20 and had never seen anything like that in person.  It was a little 'toaster on wheels' type of car and the telephone poll did a number on it.  The driver was slumped over the steering wheel and I could see cerebrial fluid running out of his ears.  The passenger was slumped down in his seat with his seat belt on.  Somehow in the crash his right leg was was sticking out of the passenger window, almost severed and hanging by skin.  The odd thing was that no blood was flowing from the injury.  As I tried to get in the smashed passenger side I was looking directly into his eyes and saw the 'lights go out' for lack of a better description.  That was the first time I ever saw a man die in front of me.  Well, fire rescue was there in a flash and took over.  I don't know what happened to the driver.

The point of the story is this;  there was really nothing I could have done for either in the time that I had.  It took the jaws of life to get them out.  But it got me thinking.  What if I could have somehow gotten inside the car.  I had absolutely nothing if the seat belt didn't unfasten.  A knife, while obviously making a good weapon for defense, is also a tool for many other functions such as a rescue tool.  Since then I've seen many times a knife has been useful for a rescue.  I've personally cut down 12 people attempting suicide.  In this light, I've carried a knife (Spyderco Endura with serrated blade) daily for over 17 years.  I also carry a Swiss Army Tinker pocket knife.  Both have come in handy countless times for common tasks as well as some rescues.  So for me, an edged weapon is a rescue tool primarily, common tool secondarily with the added function of a weapon last.

Just wanted to add this to the thread.


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## ATACX GYM

puunui said:


> Personally, I don't see any difference between the "sportive" mindset and the "SD" mindset. If anything, I think it is easier to defend yourself against the normal situation (like your son's, weak kids with weak skills trying to assert themselves) than competition, because the higher you go, the harder it is.


 

I believe I addressed this area already...and yes I agree that the median wavelength for sport situations visavis fitness technical skill etc. is higher visavis civilian SD because athletes tend to be in better shape overall.They're generally stronger,faster, possess grater quickness,flexibility,agility,greater endurance,etc. than the average person.But the more severe SD scenarios require superior skill sets that are not addressed for the most part by sport combatives,and this reality is what tends to make the SD specialist superior overall than the sports combatant. We don't tell say Mark Lopez to go smash those terrorists,despite the fact that he'd kick the holy crap out of them (literally) if he caught them at range with his patented kicking combos. We send guys like Navy SEAL TEAM 6 or DELTA FORCE.Their training is superior,their athleticism is superior,their weaponry and tactics are superior visavis SD. If Mark Lopez tried to apply his skills and somebody broke out a knife,he got tackled,he was in the midst of a multifight,etc. etc.? He'd be out of his element. Not so the SD martial mindset and martial artist.


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## ATACX GYM

Kong Soo Do said:


> You've got good reason to be proud of your boy, he's got a good head on his shoulders. Thank you for sharing this


 

Thank you very much! I enjoy reading your posts,as imo your posts tend to have something of value that I can glean from them.So far I agree with the overarching sentiment and content of your posts.Keep on posting,my brother.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> I believe I addressed this area already...and yes I agree that the median wavelength for sport situations visavis fitness technical skill etc. is higher visavis civilian SD because athletes tend to be in better shape overall.They're generally stronger,faster, possess grater quickness,flexibility,agility,greater endurance,etc. than the average person.But the more severe SD scenarios require superior skill sets that are not addressed for the most part by sport combatives,and this reality is what tends to make the SD specialist superior overall than the sports combatant. *We don't tell say Mark Lopez to go smash those terrorists,despite the fact that he'd kick the holy crap out of them (literally) if he caught them at range with his patented kicking combos. We send guys like Navy SEAL TEAM 6 or DELTA FORCE.Their training is superior,their athleticism is superior,their weaponry and tactics are superior visavis SD.* If Mark Lopez tried to apply his skills and somebody broke out a knife,he got tackled,he was in the midst of a multifight,etc. etc.? He'd be out of his element. Not so the SD martial mindset and martial artist.


Except that their skills aren't superior visavis SD.  Their skills are superior vivavis search and destroy.  Smashing terrorists is not self defense.  It is a military operation.  The comparison makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Its like comparing baseball player to an NFL football player; each is good at what they do and both are far removed from the realities of daily life.

Daniel


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## Kong Soo Do

ATACX GYM said:


> Thank you very much! I enjoy reading your posts,as imo your posts tend to have something of value that I can glean from them.So far I agree with the overarching sentiment and content of your posts.Keep on posting,my brother.


 
I appreciate it


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## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Except that their skills aren't superior visavis SD. Their skills are superior vivavis search and destroy. Smashing terrorists is not self defense. It is a military operation. The comparison makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Its like comparing baseball player to an NFL football player; each is good at what they do and both are far removed from the realities of daily life.
> 
> Daniel


 

Okay then we have differing perspectives of SD.I include the military and any other group like law enforcement within SD.If you're defending lives by taking the lives of bad guys who would prey on the innocent? That's self-defense to me.Because those bad guys will either come for you first or the people whom you love and/or are sworn to protect.Taking down a serial killer,a robber,a rapist,a guy that jumped bail,a internationally wanted terrorist,and the neighborhood bully are ALL SD to me...just one is CIVILIAN SD and the other is MILITARY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT SD.But SD is SD.To me? The unspoken,tacit agreement regarding SD and martial training is that you're defending your life and/or the lives of others honorably using martial techniques.I think your definition is more exclusive to civilian SD,and therefore I understand where you're coming from.I hope that you now have a better understanding of my perspective now.If you wish to debate the matter further? Fine with me too.


----------



## Archtkd

ATACX GYM said:


> Okay then we have differing perspectives of SD.I include the military and any other group like law enforcement within SD.If you're defending lives by taking the lives of bad guys who would prey on the innocent? That's self-defense to me.Because those bad guys will either come for you first or the people whom you love and/or are sworn to protect.Taking down a serial killer,a robber,a rapist,a guy that jumped bail,a internationally wanted terrorist,and the neighborhood bully are ALL SD to me...just one is CIVILIAN SD and the other is MILITARY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT SD.But SD is SD.To me? The unspoken,tacit agreement regarding SD and martial training is that you're defending your life and/or the lives of others honorably using martial techniques.I think your definition is more exclusive to civilian SD,and therefore I understand where you're coming from.I hope that you now have a better understanding of my perspective now.If you wish to debate the matter further? Fine with me too.



Wow! Those sad civilians. So the "real world" studio you attend offers anti-terrorism classes? You work with firearms, bombs, etc. as part of the regular self defense curriculum? Do students, including children,  have to bring in machetes to class? Are live-round duels part of regular sparring in the dojang? Is water boarding included in belt tests? Do black belts have to walk on mines to show ability to stay balanced under stress?


----------



## ATACX GYM

Archtkd said:


> Wow! Those sad civilians. So the "real world" studio you attend offers anti-terrorism classes? You work with firearms, bombs, etc. as part of the regular self defense curriculum? Do students, including children, have to bring in machetes to class? Are live-round duels part of regular sparring in the dojang? Is water boarding included in belt tests? Do black belts have to walk on mines to show ability to stay balanced under stress?


 

Nope,none of that stuff except for the firearms part and every once in a while we work machetes for the heft fun and feel of it.See,we do CIVILIAN SELF DEFENSE in addition to sport tournaments in my Gym. The distinction that I've made isn't a new one,and in fact is derived from the military,LEO and correctional professionals martial artists who are both professionals in this field AND martial arts instructors.

Ask Doc about it.I'm sure that he could enlighten you if for some reason you're unable or unwilling to see the difference between civilian self-defense and military self-defense...and fail to recognize that (despite the differing scenarios) it's STILL self-defense.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Archtkd said:


> Wow! Those sad civilians. So the "real world" studio you attend offers anti-terrorism classes? You work with firearms, bombs, etc. as part of the regular self defense curriculum? Do students, including children, have to bring in machetes to class? Are live-round duels part of regular sparring in the dojang? Is water boarding included in belt tests? Do black belts have to walk on mines to show ability to stay balanced under stress?


 

Excepting the firearms and machete part (you ever train in kali?),we don't do any of that stuff.Somehow,my developing master of The Force encourages me to intuit that you may not do such a thing either.As I stated before,we're focusing on CIVILIAN self-defense in our Gym and sport combat tournaments.Doing so,however,doesn't prevent us from being able to see what imho is a veeerrry obvious and even blatant connection between civilian and military self-defense. If you would like to personally experience our efficacy in the spirit of helping one another develope our martial efficacy and in the tradition of martial arts brotherhood? We'd love to have you.Bring your machete.Lol. I also travel periodically,so if you're not too far from California? It's not impossible that I may visit you,if that is acceptable to you.And we can work out.Hard.On the mat.Videotape it for posterity and stuff like that.Whaddya say?

Krav Maga makes the distinction between civilians and military self-defense,yet acknowledges that it's self-defense.I think our correctional officers would strenuously assert that they would benefit from our training (I'm being facetious here--half a dozen of my regulars are CO's for Termino Island and now a few other places too,so I know FOR A FACT that our training has saved their lives and a few of their colleagues too from severe harm,not to mention more than several dozen inmates).Matta fact? You can talk to Doc about his 20+ years as a Sheriff,a martial arts pioneer and legend,and I'm sure that he can articulate a position that you might be able to respect/grasp/both/whatever.

With the greatest respect,if you wish to discuss or debate this further--there is a sharp difference--I would be happy to engage you and anyone else.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Archtkd said:


> Wow! Those sad civilians. So the "real world" studio you attend offers anti-terrorism classes? You work with firearms, bombs, etc. as part of the regular self defense curriculum? Do students, including children, have to bring in machetes to class? Are live-round duels part of regular sparring in the dojang? Is water boarding included in belt tests? Do black belts have to walk on mines to show ability to stay balanced under stress?


 

Sarcasm much? Lolol.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> Okay then we have differing perspectives of SD.


No.  Not differing perspectives.  You are applying a definition that is inapplicable.  



ATACX GYM said:


> I include the military and any other group like law enforcement within SD. If you're defending lives by taking the lives of bad guys who would prey on the innocent? That's self-defense to me.Because those bad guys will either come for you first or the people whom you love and/or are sworn to protect.


This is common defense and maintaining peace, not self defense.  That is the function that the military and law enforcement perform.  



ATACX GYM said:


> Taking down a serial killer,a robber,a rapist,a guy that jumped bail,a internationally wanted terrorist,and the neighborhood bully are ALL SD to me...just one is CIVILIAN SD and the other is MILITARY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT SD.


What you are talking about is not self defense.  You are talking about arrest and incarceration of a felon.  If the serial killer/robber/rapist/guy that jumped bail/internationally wanted terrorist or neighborhood bully attack the officer in question in the process, then the officer is *also* defending him or herself at the time.  But the act of going after the serial killer is not self defense.  

Nor is the apprehension of internationally wanted terrorists by coordinated military action.  

Self defense, by definition, is defense of one's self.  Legally, this extends to include defense of property or of another person.  Another term for self defense is private defense.  By its nature, self defense is personal in nature.  I defend myself, my family or my property.  If I come to the direct aid of another person, I am now in harm's way and am really defending myself at that point. 



ATACX GYM said:


> But SD is SD.To me? The unspoken,tacit agreement regarding SD and martial training is that you're defending your life and/or the lives of others honorably using martial techniques.I think your definition is more exclusive to civilian SD,and therefore I understand where you're coming from.I hope that you now have a better understanding of my perspective now.


My definition is not the issue, as it is not my definition.  

The reason that we differ has nothing to do with civilian vs. military/LEO.  Honor and martial arts techniques have nothing to do with it either.  If I decide to go to a crack house and start kicking the crap out of the crack dealer and he fights back without having had any training, he's still acting in self defense.

The reason that we differ is because you have made up your own definition.  

The actual definition is not mine and is as follows:



			
				Merriam-Webster said:
			
		

> Definition of SELF-DEFENSE
> 
> 1
> : a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide
> 2
> : the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative



If you disagree, take it up with these folks: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self defense



ATACX GYM said:


> If you wish to debate the matter further? Fine with me too.


There is nothing to debate.  Your definition is simply incorrect.  Romantic perhaps, but incorrect.  There are other terms for the things that you describe.

And comparing Mark Lopez' taekwondo skills to the specialized skills of anti terrorism units makes no sense.

If you feel that it does, then fine.  I have no personal investment in how you choose to re-purpose terms with established meanings for your own use.

My point was simply that your analogy is inapplicable.  Mark Lopez doesn't go "smashing terrorists" for the same reason that firemen don't chase down suspects in a homicide: they are neither qualified nor have the tools needed to do so.

Daniel


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## Archtkd

ATACX GYM said:


> Sarcasm much? Lolol.


 
A little laughter is not a bad thing, is it?


----------



## oftheherd1

Mr. Sullivan - You have a right to have your own opinions, and I like the respectful as well as thoughtful way you present your side of an issue.  But I think you and *ATACX GYM* are splitting hairs.  I would like to suggest a scenario for your comment.

Suppose I am an LEO and go to *ATACX GYM's* house with an arrest warrant.  He disagrees with the arrest, but being a good citizen, he submits immediately and passively to a wall search and being hand cuffed.  He wishes to obey the law and will submit himself to the courts for redress.  We chat genially on the way to my vehicle and on the way to the hooskow.

Next I go to your house with an arrest warrant.  You are not going to be a good citizen, and are incensed that someone has sworn out a warrant for your arrest.  That person isn't present, so you decide to resist and take your anger out on me.  You begin to agressively resist, attacking me with your training, with the apparent intent to do harm to me.  I use training I have received and manage to subdue you with minimal injury to you and especially to myself.

How do you define my actions in regard to you?  Is there any self defense on my part?  Where does one draw the line?  

Citizens have a duty to submit to lawful actions by LEO.  In the real world, it often happens they don't, but under the law, that is what they are supposed to do.

As to your mention of military offensive actions, I agree, that is a different.  Military (including insurgents) being attacked have a duty to resist, and must be expected to do so.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

oftheherd1 said:


> Mr. Sullivan - You have a right to have your own opinions, and I like the respectful as well as thoughtful way you present your side of an issue. But I think you and *ATACX GYM* are splitting hairs. I would like to suggest a scenario for your comment.


I disagree that we're splitting hairs.  I also am not stating opinion.  I am sticking with facts.  I posted the dictionary definiton to demonstrate that.

In any case, this whole tangent developed because I said that Atacx comparing of Mark Lopez to anti-terrorism special forces units did not make any sense.  And it doesn't.  He furnished a very lengthy response wherein he volunteered his rather romantic notion of self defense.  As I said, he is welcome to view it that way if he so chooses, but he is using his own definition for the term, or has adopted one that someone else came up with.    



oftheherd1 said:


> Suppose I am an LEO and go to *ATACX GYM's* house with an arrest warrant. He disagrees with the arrest, but being a good citizen, he submits immediately and passively to a wall search and being hand cuffed. He wishes to obey the law and will submit himself to the courts for redress. We chat genially on the way to my vehicle and on the way to the hooskow.
> 
> Next I go to your house with an arrest warrant. You are not going to be a good citizen, and are incensed that someone has sworn out a warrant for your arrest. That person isn't present, so you decide to resist and take your anger out on me. You begin to agressively resist, attacking me with your training, with the apparent intent to do harm to me. I use training I have received and manage to subdue you with minimal injury to you and especially to myself.
> 
> *How do you define my actions in regard to you? Is there any self defense on my part? Where does one draw the line? *
> 
> Citizens have a duty to submit to lawful actions by LEO. In the real world, it often happens they don't, but under the law, that is what they are supposed to do.


I addressed this in my response to Atacx:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> What you are talking about is not self defense. You are talking about arrest and incarceration of a felon. If the serial killer/robber/rapist/guy that jumped bail/internationally wanted terrorist or neighborhood bully attack the officer in question in the process, then the officer is *also* defending him or herself at the time. But the act of going after the serial killer is not self defense.



Self defense occurs in the line of duty because of the nature of the job.  But the things that he classifies as self defense simply are not self defense in and  of themselves.  

Self defense is also what you will plea if you injure or kill the resisting suspect in the process of the arrest. 



oftheherd1 said:


> As to your mention of military offensive actions, I agree, that is a different. Military (including insurgents) being attacked have a duty to resist, and must be expected to do so.


And that brings us back to where we started: Mark Lopez being compared to special forces.

Daniel


----------



## oftheherd1

I addressed this in my response to Atacx:


Quote:
Originally Posted by *Daniel Sullivan* 

 
_What you are talking about is not self defense. You are talking about arrest and incarceration of a felon. If the serial killer/robber/rapist/guy that jumped bail/internationally wanted terrorist or neighborhood bully attack the officer in question in the process, then the officer is *also* defending him or herself at the time. But the act of going after the serial killer is not self defense._

Yes, I see that you did.  I think what was was reacting to was what I took to be ambiguity in saying "also" defending himself.  

Without going back and looking, if another poster said going out to initiate an arrest was self defense, I agree, it is not.  That is simply performing one's duty.  If another poster said a military action was self defense, I covered that above.  Some may wish to argue it is defending society or the country.  While that may be true, it may sometimes be done without resulting violence.  

Regardless, it is a performance of duty for the individual, and only becomes SD in the sense that the person tries to keep from being injured or killed himself, if an apparent non-violent situation suddenly turns to violence.  Again, initiating an attack by military is not SD.

I'm in a bit of a hurry so I hope that makes sense.  If not, ask for clarification.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I appreciate all the discussion this thread has generated.  Thank you.

I'd like to have others post their examples as well.  I feel we can all learn from these examples.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> No. Not differing perspectives. You are applying a definition that is inapplicable.
> 
> 
> This is common defense and maintaining peace, not self defense. That is the function that the military and law enforcement perform.
> 
> 
> What you are talking about is not self defense. You are talking about arrest and incarceration of a felon. If the serial killer/robber/rapist/guy that jumped bail/internationally wanted terrorist or neighborhood bully attack the officer in question in the process, then the officer is *also* defending him or herself at the time. But the act of going after the serial killer is not self defense.
> 
> Nor is the apprehension of internationally wanted terrorists by coordinated military action.
> 
> Self defense, by definition, is defense of one's self. Legally, this extends to include defense of property or of another person. Another term for self defense is private defense. By its nature, self defense is personal in nature. I defend myself, my family or my property. If I come to the direct aid of another person, I am now in harm's way and am really defending myself at that point.
> 
> 
> My definition is not the issue, as it is not my definition.
> 
> The reason that we differ has nothing to do with civilian vs. military/LEO. Honor and martial arts techniques have nothing to do with it either. If I decide to go to a crack house and start kicking the crap out of the crack dealer and he fights back without having had any training, he's still acting in self defense.
> 
> The reason that we differ is because you have made up your own definition.
> 
> The actual definition is not mine and is as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> If you disagree, take it up with these folks: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self%20defense
> 
> 
> There is nothing to debate. Your definition is simply incorrect. Romantic perhaps, but incorrect. There are other terms for the things that you describe.
> 
> And comparing Mark Lopez' taekwondo skills to the specialized skills of anti terrorism units makes no sense.
> 
> If you feel that it does, then fine. I have no personal investment in how you choose to re-purpose terms with established meanings for your own use.
> 
> My point was simply that your analogy is inapplicable. Mark Lopez doesn't go "smashing terrorists" for the same reason that firemen don't chase down suspects in a homicide: they are neither qualified nor have the tools needed to do so.
> 
> Daniel


 

This is an excellent post,Daniel,but you've just elaborately proven my point.You indicated that the definition that I used is inapplicable.That's not the case.I just didn't apply ONLY the definition that you have.I applied ALL of the primary definitions related to the phrase "self-defense" and merely navigated the areas that they all have in common with my response.

Observe: the legal definition for "self-defense" is:

*Self-Defense*

(n) Self defense is the action by which a person protects himself from any bodily harm arising out of an encounters or attacks from other person either by protecting him or by blocking the opponents advancement by a counter attack. Self defense is not a crime so accused may be tempted to show their action as self defense to escape punishment 


*self&#8211;de·fense (merriam)*

_noun_ \&#716;self-di-&#712;fen(t)s\
*Definition of SELF-DEFENSE*

1
*:* a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide 

2
*:* the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative 

*Dictionary*


*Search Results*


*self-de·fense* *noun*&#8195;

The defense of one's person or interests, esp. through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime
- he claimed *self-defense* in the attempted murder charge
*Web definitions*

the act of defending yourself
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Self-defence (or self-defense; see spelling differences) is a countermeasure that involves defending oneself, one's property or the well-being of another from physical harm. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense

The right of self-defense (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in violence for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(theory)

- *self-defense* classes

the means of defending oneself from physical attack; the right to protect oneself against violence by using reasonable force, especially when used as justification in a murder charge
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-defense


Protection of oneself from an unprovoked attack, which cannot be avoided. (410.01)
www.doc.state.vt.us/about/policies/glossary_s


(as defined by outside observers, not by the universal claim of all persecutors, including the Nazis, that this was all they were doing).
www.questia.com/PM.qst


the protection of oneself or one's property from unlawful injury or the immediate risk of unlawful injury; the justification for an act which would otherwise constitute an offense on the ground that the person who committed it reasonably believed that the act was necessary to protect self or ...
securitybeyondborders.org/global-security-glossary/global-secur
*1.* (Military) of or relating to the armed forces (esp the army), warlike matters, etc.


And the purpose of me comparing Mark Lopez to the special forces/military/law enforcement forces was specifically to point out that Mr.Lopez would likely be in jeapordy of life and limb despite the fact that he's an Olympian of elite skill.Mr.Lopez is not trained for the rigors that are the purview of the aforementioned professionals,and the converse is also true,despite the fact that Mr.Lopez is likely superior athletically to most if not all of the aforementioned professionals and despite the fact that Mr.Lopez's strikes would speedily defeat all of his opposition should they engage in empty hand combat.



 




Very simply put,the purpose of law enforcement is to protect their communities,cities,counties,states,and our nation from the predations of criminals and the daily oftentimes minor transgressions of our regular citizenry.It's literally both law enforcement AND protection...defense...of a group of citizens who've specifically entrusted law enforcement with that mandate.It IS defense...and on the individual level police,citizen or military...it becomes self-defense when you're in the midst of the lawful commission of whatever activity that you're involved in.

If you smacked around the crack dealer and the crack dealer defended himself,YEP...he's engaging in self-defense.You're breaking the law visavis vigilantism,even though you'd probably be right in perceiving that the community would be better off without the criminals in it.And you could call the police who--in the midst of executing their lawful duty--are defending the community/city/county/etc. that we live in.

Now,that THAT'S out of the way,let me reemphasize what I ACTUALLY said in its ENTIRETY so the proper context may be observed,instead of merely the portion of what I said that you concentrated on:



ATACX GYM said:


> I believe I addressed this area already...and yes I agree that the median wavelength for sport situations visavis fitness technical skill etc. is higher visavis civilian SD because athletes tend to be in better shape overall.They're generally stronger,faster, possess grater quickness,flexibility,agility,greater endurance,etc. than the average person.But the more severe SD scenarios require superior skill sets that are not addressed for the most part by sport combatives,and this reality is what tends to make the SD specialist superior overall than the sports combatant. We don't tell say Mark Lopez to go smash those terrorists,despite the fact that he'd kick the holy crap out of them (literally) if he caught them at range with his patented kicking combos. We send guys like Navy SEAL TEAM 6 or DELTA FORCE.Their training is superior,their athleticism is superior,their weaponry and tactics are superior visavis SD. If Mark Lopez tried to apply his skills and somebody broke out a knife,he got tackled,he was in the midst of a multifight,etc. etc.? He'd be out of his element. Not so the SD martial mindset and martial artist.


 

Now we can see that your response,Daniel,focused on perhaps 1/3 of my entire post above.When reintegrated into the entirety of my post,it should be clear that my point was something beond what Daniel mistook it for...and we can return more accurately to the main point of the OP.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> This is an excellent post,Daniel,but you've just elaborately proven my point.You indicated that the definition that I used is inapplicable.That's not the case.I just didn't apply ONLY the definition that you have.I applied ALL of the primary definitions related to the phrase "self-defense" and merely navigated the areas that they all have in common with my response.
> 
> Observe: the legal definition for "self-defense" is:
> 
> *Self-Defense*
> 
> (n) Self defense is the action by which a person protects himself from any bodily harm arising out of an encounters or attacks from other person either by protecting him or by blocking the opponents advancement by a counter attack. Self defense is not a crime so accused may be tempted to show their action as self defense to escape punishment
> 
> 
> *selfde·fense (merriam)*
> 
> _noun_ \&#716;self-di-&#712;fen(t)s\
> *Definition of SELF-DEFENSE*
> 
> 1
> *:* a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide
> 
> 2
> *:* the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative
> 
> *Dictionary*
> 
> 
> *Search Results*
> 
> 
> *self-de·fense* *noun*&#8195;
> 
> The defense of one's person or interests, esp. through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime
> - he claimed *self-defense* in the attempted murder charge
> *Web definitions*
> 
> the act of defending yourself
> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
> 
> Self-defence (or self-defense; see spelling differences) is a countermeasure that involves defending oneself, one's property or the well-being of another from physical harm. ...
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense
> 
> The right of self-defense (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in violence for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others ...
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(theory)
> 
> - *self-defense* classes
> 
> the means of defending oneself from physical attack; the right to protect oneself against violence by using reasonable force, especially when used as justification in a murder charge
> en.wiktionary.org/wiki/self-defense
> 
> 
> Protection of oneself from an unprovoked attack, which cannot be avoided. (410.01)
> www.doc.state.vt.us/about/policies/glossary_s
> 
> 
> (as defined by outside observers, not by the universal claim of all persecutors, including the Nazis, that this was all they were doing).
> www.questia.com/PM.qst
> 
> 
> the protection of oneself or one's property from unlawful injury or the immediate risk of unlawful injury; the justification for an act which would otherwise constitute an offense on the ground that the person who committed it reasonably believed that the act was necessary to protect self or ...
> securitybeyondborders.org/global-security-glossary/global-secur
> *1.* (Military) of or relating to the armed forces (esp the army), warlike matters, etc.
> 
> 
> And the purpose of me comparing Mark Lopez to the special forces/military/law enforcement forces was specifically to point out that Mr.Lopez would likely be in jeapordy of life and limb despite the fact that he's an Olympian of elite skill.Mr.Lopez is not trained for the rigors that are the purview of the aforementioned professionals,and the converse is also true,despite the fact that Mr.Lopez is likely superior athletically to most if not all of the aforementioned professionals and despite the fact that Mr.Lopez's strikes would speedily defeat all of his opposition should they engage in empty hand combat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very simply put,the purpose of law enforcement is to protect their communities,cities,counties,states,and our nation from the predations of criminals and the daily oftentimes minor transgressions of our regular citizenry.It's literally both law enforcement AND protection...defense...of a group of citizens who've specifically entrusted law enforcement with that mandate.It IS defense...and on the individual level police,citizen or military...it becomes self-defense when you're in the midst of the lawful commission of whatever activity that you're involved in.
> 
> If you smacked around the crack dealer and the crack dealer defended himself,YEP...he's engaging in self-defense.You're breaking the law visavis vigilantism,even though you'd probably be right in perceiving that the community would be better off without the criminals in it.And you could call the police who--in the midst of executing their lawful duty--are defending the community/city/county/etc. that we live in.
> 
> Now,that THAT'S out of the way,let me reemphasize what I ACTUALLY said in its ENTIRETY so the proper context may be observed,instead of merely the portion of what I said that you concentrated on:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now we can see that your response,Daniel,focused on perhaps 1/3 of my entire post above.When reintegrated into the entirety of my post,it should be clear that my point was something beond what Daniel mistook it for...and we can return more accurately to the main point of the OP.


I didn't mistake your point for anything else.  Your analogy regarding Mark Lopez and the military is not a good analogy.  You are reading things into the definition of self defense that you wish to see.

That is okay; certainly hurts nobody.  But I agree: back to the OP. 

Daniel


----------



## Doomx2001

What a debate! I had to go back a few posts just to see what you all were talking about. 
I actually agree with both Mr. Sullivian and ATACX GYM . 

The whole debate right now is over the defintion of self-defense and how it actually relates to Mark Lopez and Navy Seals.

Well this is my take: Self-Defense means just that, self defense. Defense of one's self, property or of sometimes of some else (which sorta isn't self defense no more, it's debatable, lets put it that way  )

There are obviously situations where everyday citizens must defend themselves. There are situations where police must defend themselves due a sudden unexpected situation that happens out of the blue when dealing with crackheads. 

But, police are trained more in the field of command presence, talking down an aggressor, and arresting tactics (which are aggressive in nature as you are pursuing someone, and not neccessarily defending yourself). But having said that, police do have to defend themselves as citizens do from time to time. 

On the Navy Seals, Sullivian is right. Navy Seals are trained to do one thing really well that makes them the best at what they do: Search and Destroy. Killing. Hunting other men, finding them, and killing them in a way that makes Chuck Norris smile. Thats what Navy Seals do. They spend more time hunting trouble, than trouble finding them. I'm sure there are scenarious where self-defense is applicatable, but in this instance I don't think so. 

I agree with ATACX GYM also. Mark Lopez would probably be out of his element fight terrorist or on the battlefield. 

But really, I do think there is an element of spliting hairs here like oftheherd1 said while ago. Its all good natured debate though. Keep it coming, and then lets back on topic.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I didn't mistake your point for anything else. Your analogy regarding Mark Lopez and the military is not a good analogy. You are reading things into the definition of self defense that you wish to see.
> 
> That is okay; certainly hurts nobody. But I agree: back to the OP.
> 
> Daniel


 

Okay,the areas that we agree at imho trump the areas where we disagree.Back to the OP.

Today I was coming back home and saw about a half dozen late teen-very early twentysomethings engaging in what we in the hood call "slap boxing"...with about a dozen pretty girls as onlookers and a sprinkling of middle aged men with cans of beer in hand looking on. One rather large brutha--about 6'5",250-260--was asserting his dominance over another slightly shorter and smaller brutha--about 6'3",230--by doing what amounted to a less skillful impression of Kimbo Slice back in his backyard streetfighting days. As I bypassed these worthies--and received greetings from the girls and older men--one of the young bulls NOT slap boxing at the time called out:

"Betcha can't **** with karate cuz!" This assertion was met with a chorus of good-natured laughter from all,including me,as I slightly quickened my pace to the security gate that regulated entry to my apartment complex."What?" Kimbo Slice 0.5 half-seriously challenged."I whoop Bruce Leroy's ***!" And he came toward me,fists up in a boxer's crouch,shoulders hunched slightly. But I was definitely going to beat him into the apartment complex,as I was closer to the gate by a good dozen yards and I already had my key in hand...

...a few young teens already inside my apartment complex read the situation and playfully leaped to the security gate to hold it shut so I couldn't enter...thus ensuring that I would be there when Kimbo Slice 0.5 got to me.

"Come own,Bruce Leroy," Kimbo Slice 0.5 said to me from a distance of about a dozen paces."Lessee whatcha got." This challenge caught the attention of everybody within a 100 meters...about 40-50 witnesses entering and exiting their cars,as well as the denizens of my apartment complex within earshot.

"Naaahhh man..." I tried to aver. Boo's and sounds of disappointment from the crowd.

One of the older gentlemen looked at his peers and said:"I'd leave that young man [gestured at me with his beer can] alone,if I was him [gestured at Kimbo Slice 0.5]."

"Come owwnnn man! Just a lil street fun." Kimbo 0.5 encouraged.Then he broke out with an AMAZINGLY ACCURATE imitation of Sho'Nuff from the iconic martial arts movie lampoon of the 80's called THE LAST DRAGON,mishmashing Sho'Nuff's more famous lines into a single delivery."See! It's skinny little lizards like YOU...who think they da LAASST DRAGON...that gives kung-fu a bad name! You catchin bullets...with his teeth? ***** PLEASE!! I got somethin REEEALL for you in THESE hands! *****...KISS MY CONVERS!"





 




 
I turned to face him,and he flicked a playful jab at me.I didn't move because the jab was short of its mark.The crowd oooo'd and that egged him on,so the next jab and cross came to make contact,but he was still feeling me out.I slipped both shots without raising my hands."OH! That ***** didn't even raise his hands!" somebody commented."Yeah!" some other heckler jumped in."He didn't move like:'*****,please! I'm a ninja master!'" The crowd inside and outside of the apartment complex laughed,and now Kimbo Slice 0.5's rep was on the line.

"Man look,I have other things to do--" I tried to aver. "BOOO!" went the crowd,drowning me out.I looked to see how close the next gate was to me,but Kimbo Slice 0.5 was between me and the next gate allowing me entrance into the apartment complex,and there were other teens there crowding about to get a look at the excitement. I briefly considered explosively scaling the 12 foot gate at my back that the kids were holding shut but both Kimbo and the teens would have time to react prior to me touching the ground on the other side of the gate.

The roof,however,was merely 6 feet or so from the top of the gate.Hmmm.As I considered the distance from gate top to rooftop with my peripheral vision,3 things happened simultaneously:

1) The Old Man said:"Big man done bit off more than he can chew."

2) My oldest daughter--I call her SUPER STAR--descended the stairs from our apartment,and using my peripheral vision I saw her start at seeing me in this "predicament".

3) Kimbo Slice 0.5 came at me more seriously this time,1-2,1-2,attempted tackle.

I slipped each attack and did a dive roll (cell phone,wallet,keys,shoulder bag and all) UNDER his sloppy semi-Greco Roman+football tackle waist clinch attempt.The visual effect was that I arrowed under his arms in the exact opposite direction that he was going,and he kept charging forward punching and grabbing air as he'd gathered too much momentum to halt his movement.He slowed and used his palms to stop himself from slamming into the opposite wall--not even ten paces across from where I now stood having smoothly come up from my shoulder roll.

"OOOOOOOOOHHHHHH!" "DAAAAAYAAAAMN!" "THAT **** WAS TIIITE!"thrilled the crowd.

He turned to face me--a bit more wary but definitely more determined to put in work on me now--and I met him with a clash and a flurry of kicks in the center of the small walkway. I entered with a feint lead left leg side kick--which brought his hands down--that I took advantage of with my variant of Kenpo's Alternating Maces (top speed but a quarter power shots,so they had brisk impact but weren't truly painful or debilitating) which I followed with the  jumping right whipping heel hook to his cheek-midair turn-airborne back kick to his belly.

Looked like the first part of this video with the feint:





 
flowing smoothly into:





 
morphing into the jumping variant of this:





 
and finally this kick while still midair:





 

The superfast left back kick to the body landed flush.The lightning fast jump right whip heel hook kick which I snapped at him I halted with zero impact upon his cheek,I retracted before his startled hands could grasp my leg,torquing midair into my left body kick (purposefully fired into his belly with about a quarter power just as he raised both hands to his left cheek) which drove him stumbling backwards.

"OOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" gasped the crowd.

As the crowd was momentarily agog from my TKD and KENPO display,I flashed to the gate and scaled it rapidly.The teens in question braced the gate--misreading my intention--and kinda shook it in an attempt to dislodge me on the other side so that I'd be forced to conclude the "contest" with Kimbo Slice 0.5,but instead of dropping onto their side of the gate,I sprang directly to the rooftop some six feet away.

"OOOOOO!!! THAT ***** ON SOME FREERUNNING NINJA ****!" said the crowd.

I scampered across the roof and dropped swiftly to the second story walkway ringing the apartments.A hop,skip,a "hi sweetie Daddy loves you" to my oldest daughter,and a jump? And I'm inside the apartment telling you guys what happened. Thee end.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Doomx2001 said:


> What a debate! I had to go back a few posts just to see what you all were talking about.
> I actually agree with both Mr. Sullivian and ATACX GYM .
> 
> The whole debate right now is over the defintion of self-defense and how it actually relates to Mark Lopez and Navy Seals.
> 
> Well this is my take: Self-Defense means just that, self defense. Defense of one's self, property or of sometimes of some else (which sorta isn't self defense no more, it's debatable, lets put it that way  )
> 
> There are obviously situations where everyday citizens must defend themselves. There are situations where police must defend themselves due a sudden unexpected situation that happens out of the blue when dealing with crackheads.
> 
> But, police are trained more in the field of command presence, talking down an aggressor, and arresting tactics (which are aggressive in nature as you are pursuing someone, and not neccessarily defending yourself). But having said that, police do have to defend themselves as citizens do from time to time.
> 
> On the Navy Seals, Sullivian is right. Navy Seals are trained to do one thing really well that makes them the best at what they do: Search and Destroy. Killing. Hunting other men, finding them, and killing them in a way that makes Chuck Norris smile. Thats what Navy Seals do. They spend more time hunting trouble, than trouble finding them. I'm sure there are scenarious where self-defense is applicatable, but in this instance I don't think so.


Pretty much what I was saying.



Doomx2001 said:


> I agree with ATACX GYM also. Mark Lopez would probably be out of his element fight terrorist or on the battlefield.


On that, all three of us, and likely everyone reading this thread, agree.  In fact, that was never disputed.

And a Navy Seal would be out of his element fighting taekwondo olympians under WTF rules.  Each is trained in a different area of expertise.  

And both do what they do in a setting that the vast majority of civilians/non competitors will never set foot in.



Doomx2001 said:


> But really, I do think there is an element of spliting hairs here like oftheherd1 said while ago. Its all good natured debate though. Keep it coming, and then lets back on topic.


While I don't consider it splitting hairs, yes, it is friendly and light hearted.  Meaning no disrespect to Atacx, I am fairly exacting regarding definitions of words, as well as accepted usage of terms.  I get what he is driving at; I simply felt that a different analogy would have illustrated it better. 

Daniel


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Pretty much what I was saying.
> 
> 
> On that, all three of us, and likely everyone reading this thread, agree. In fact, that was never disputed.
> 
> And a Navy Seal would be out of his element fighting taekwondo olympians under WTF rules. Each is trained in a different area of expertise.
> 
> And both do what they do in a setting that the vast majority of civilians/non competitors will never set foot in.
> 
> 
> While I don't consider it splitting hairs, yes, it is friendly and light hearted. Meaning no disrespect to Atacx, I am fairly exacting regarding definitions of words, as well as accepted usage of terms. I get what he is driving at; I simply felt that a different analogy would have illustrated it better.
> 
> Daniel


 
No offense taken.Now do you have any "examples from the real world involving KMA's" to share with us,Daniel,or did I miss them/forget them if you posted them already?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I had posted it back on page 2, but it was so brief compared to many of the other posts that it was easy to miss:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Once had a man attempt to mug me. He brandished a knife and demanded my wallet. I delivered a low side kick to his knee. He went down and I quickly went on my way.
> 
> Aside from that and one or two scuffles, I have made use of tongue-fu to handle things. Works a lot better and it doesn't burden our law enforcement with needless paperwork.
> 
> Daniel


----------



## jda

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I had posted it back on page 2, but it was so brief compared to many of the other posts that it was easy to miss:


Tongue-Fu.  I love it!
Jim


----------



## Kong Soo Do

ATACX GYM said:


> Okay,the areas that we agree at imho trump the areas where we disagree.Back to the OP.
> 
> Today I was coming back home and saw about a half dozen late teen-very early twentysomethings engaging in what we in the hood call "slap boxing"...with about a dozen pretty girls as onlookers and a sprinkling of middle aged men with cans of beer in hand looking on. One rather large brutha--about 6'5",250-260--was asserting his dominance over another slightly shorter and smaller brutha--about 6'3",230--by doing what amounted to a less skillful impression of Kimbo Slice back in his backyard streetfighting days. As I bypassed these worthies--and received greetings from the girls and older men--one of the young bulls NOT slap boxing at the time called out:
> 
> "Betcha can't **** with karate cuz!" This assertion was met with a chorus of good-natured laughter from all,including me,as I slightly quickened my pace to the security gate that regulated entry to my apartment complex."What?" Kimbo Slice 0.5 half-seriously challenged."I whoop Bruce Leroy's ***!" And he came toward me,fists up in a boxer's crouch,shoulders hunched slightly. But I was definitely going to beat him into the apartment complex,as I was closer to the gate by a good dozen yards and I already had my key in hand...
> 
> ...a few young teens already inside my apartment complex read the situation and playfully leaped to the security gate to hold it shut so I couldn't enter...thus ensuring that I would be there when Kimbo Slice 0.5 got to me.
> 
> "Come own,Bruce Leroy," Kimbo Slice 0.5 said to me from a distance of about a dozen paces."Lessee whatcha got." This challenge caught the attention of everybody within a 100 meters...about 40-50 witnesses entering and exiting their cars,as well as the denizens of my apartment complex within earshot.
> 
> "Naaahhh man..." I tried to aver. Boo's and sounds of disappointment from the crowd.
> 
> One of the older gentlemen looked at his peers and said:"I'd leave that young man [gestured at me with his beer can] alone,if I was him [gestured at Kimbo Slice 0.5]."
> 
> "Come owwnnn man! Just a lil street fun." Kimbo 0.5 encouraged.Then he broke out with an AMAZINGLY ACCURATE imitation of Sho'Nuff from the iconic martial arts movie lampoon of the 80's called THE LAST DRAGON,mishmashing Sho'Nuff's more famous lines into a single delivery."See! It's skinny little lizards like YOU...who think they da LAASST DRAGON...that gives kung-fu a bad name! You catchin bullets...with his teeth? ***** PLEASE!! I got somethin REEEALL for you in THESE hands! *****...KISS MY CONVERS!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I turned to face him,and he flicked a playful jab at me.I didn't move because the jab was short of its mark.The crowd oooo'd and that egged him on,so the next jab and cross came to make contact,but he was still feeling me out.I slipped both shots without raising my hands."OH! That ***** didn't even raise his hands!" somebody commented."Yeah!" some other heckler jumped in."He didn't move like:'*****,please! I'm a ninja master!'" The crowd inside and outside of the apartment complex laughed,and now Kimbo Slice 0.5's rep was on the line.
> 
> "Man look,I have other things to do--" I tried to aver. "BOOO!" went the crowd,drowning me out.I looked to see how close the next gate was to me,but Kimbo Slice 0.5 was between me and the next gate allowing me entrance into the apartment complex,and there were other teens there crowding about to get a look at the excitement. I briefly considered explosively scaling the 12 foot gate at my back that the kids were holding shut but both Kimbo and the teens would have time to react prior to me touching the ground on the other side of the gate.
> 
> The roof,however,was merely 6 feet or so from the top of the gate.Hmmm.As I considered the distance from gate top to rooftop with my peripheral vision,3 things happened simultaneously:
> 
> 1) The Old Man said:"Big man done bit off more than he can chew."
> 
> 2) My oldest daughter--I call her SUPER STAR--descended the stairs from our apartment,and using my peripheral vision I saw her start at seeing me in this "predicament".
> 
> 3) Kimbo Slice 0.5 came at me more seriously this time,1-2,1-2,attempted tackle.
> 
> I slipped each attack and did a dive roll (cell phone,wallet,keys,shoulder bag and all) UNDER his sloppy semi-Greco Roman+football tackle waist clinch attempt.The visual effect was that I arrowed under his arms in the exact opposite direction that he was going,and he kept charging forward punching and grabbing air as he'd gathered too much momentum to halt his movement.He slowed and used his palms to stop himself from slamming into the opposite wall--not even ten paces across from where I now stood having smoothly come up from my shoulder roll.
> 
> "OOOOOOOOOHHHHHH!" "DAAAAAYAAAAMN!" "THAT **** WAS TIIITE!"thrilled the crowd.
> 
> He turned to face me--a bit more wary but definitely more determined to put in work on me now--and I met him with a clash and a flurry of kicks in the center of the small walkway. I entered with a feint lead left leg side kick--which brought his hands down--that I took advantage of with my variant of Kenpo's Alternating Maces (top speed but a quarter power shots,so they had brisk impact but weren't truly painful or debilitating) which I followed with the jumping right whipping heel hook to his cheek-midair turn-airborne back kick to his belly.
> 
> Looked like the first part of this video with the feint:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flowing smoothly into:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> morphing into the jumping variant of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and finally this kick while still midair:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The superfast left back kick to the body landed flush.The lightning fast jump right whip heel hook kick which I snapped at him I halted with zero impact upon his cheek,I retracted before his startled hands could grasp my leg,torquing midair into my left body kick (purposefully fired into his belly with about a quarter power just as he raised both hands to his left cheek) which drove him stumbling backwards.
> 
> "OOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" gasped the crowd.
> 
> As the crowd was momentarily agog from my TKD and KENPO display,I flashed to the gate and scaled it rapidly.The teens in question braced the gate--misreading my intention--and kinda shook it in an attempt to dislodge me on the other side so that I'd be forced to conclude the "contest" with Kimbo Slice 0.5,but instead of dropping onto their side of the gate,I sprang directly to the rooftop some six feet away.
> 
> "OOOOOO!!! THAT ***** ON SOME FREERUNNING NINJA ****!" said the crowd.
> 
> I scampered across the roof and dropped swiftly to the second story walkway ringing the apartments.A hop,skip,a "hi sweetie Daddy loves you" to my oldest daughter,and a jump? And I'm inside the apartment telling you guys what happened. Thee end.


 
This incident has some very good points for consideration;



> This assertion was met with a chorus of good-natured laughter from all,including me,as I slightly quickened my pace to the security gate that regulated entry to my apartment complex."


 
Some very excellent take-home points from this situation, and thank you ATACX GYM for providing it;

You tried to keep the situation from becoming something more serious by joking with the crowd rather than letting the ego take over.
You tried to exit the situation rather than face it.
You scanned the area for exits.
You didn't over-react to the situation and continued with an escape plan.
When the moment was right, you made an exit rather than sticking around where things could have really taken a bad turn.
Thank you again for sharing.


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## puunui

Oh, and I left out another reason why GM Ji says that we should not hurt or permanently injure our attackers if possible, because in Korea, there is no concept of justification. What I mean by that is that in Korea, it doesn't matter who starts the fight, if someone is injured, then the person causing the injury is responsible legally for compensation for the injury. 

Just adding another cultural gap consideration, which I bet no one thought about, when responding to what I said GM Ji told me.


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## oftheherd1

I guess I need to check up more closely on that one.  I don't know that to be true.  Certainly if the injured party can convince the law they are not at fault, hospitalization and loss of work is expected to be compesated for.  And in an arguement, the first one to throw a punch will usually be considered at fault.  You would sometimes see argueing people, and one would get very close up in the face of the other, knowing that if the frustration got too much and they were hit, the one hitting would be at fault with the law, regardless of who was deemed to have started the arguement.  But to say the one hospitalized gets compensation regardless isn't true to my knowledge.

It is sometimes a thing seen in statements, where a victim will give the amount of hospitalization expected or work lost as a means of justification for expected compensation.  I seem to remember seeing that in Vietnam more than in Korea.  But again, that was more just that, trying to establish compensation if they were (hopefully)seen as the victim.


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## Kong Soo Do

Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?


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## ATACX GYM

Kong Soo Do said:


> Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?


 

I think that being versed in the laws of the host country is pretty important...but there can be a labyrinth of laws to navigate,depending upon the country,and cultural issues to bridge too...


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## oftheherd1

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Kong Soo Do* 

 
_Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?_


I think that being versed in the laws of the host country is pretty important...but there can be a labyrinth of laws to navigate,depending upon the country,and cultural issues to bridge too... 
______________________________________________________________________________

While true each country gets to make and enforce its own laws, and when in that country it is good to know those laws, I guess I misunderstood Puunui's meanings to begin with.  I thought he was talking about MA morality, not unrelated legal aspects.

And I still need to try and run that down about Korean law when I get the opportunity.  As I stated, I don't think there is automatic compensation.  Under such a system, what happens if both parties hurt each other?  Certainly a plausible outcome of a fight.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?



My point is that you did not even think to consider his reasons for saying what he said, from his perspective. It is a very common point of view, from the American perspective.


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> My point is that you did not even think to consider his reasons for saying what he said, from his perspective. It is a very common point of view, from the American perspective.



Actually, I did consider it. I simply don't agree with it.


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Actually, I did consider it. I simply don't agree with it.



In my opinion, you did more than just disagree with him. But I am sure you have your reasons.


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## Kong Soo Do

oftheherd1 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Kong Soo Do*
> 
> 
> _Would it not be more appropriate for an instructor to be versed in the laws of the country in which he is teaching?_
> 
> 
> I think that being versed in the laws of the host country is pretty important...but there can be a labyrinth of laws to navigate,depending upon the country,and cultural issues to bridge too...
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> While true each country gets to make and enforce its own laws, and when in that country it is good to know those laws, I guess I misunderstood Puunui's meanings to begin with.  I thought he was talking about MA morality, not unrelated legal aspects.
> 
> And I still need to try and run that down about Korean law when I get the opportunity.  As I stated, I don't think there is automatic compensation.  Under such a system, what happens if both parties hurt each other?  Certainly a plausible outcome of a fight.



Many times a country is labeled for a particular belief.  Sometimes that belief is valid, sometimes it is outdated and occasionally it is entirely incorrect.  For example, it was often said that in Turkey (and other Muslim countries) that if you hit a goat or cow or other farm animal you would have to pay for the animal itself, all the milk it would have produced and all the offspring it would have had for a certain amount of generations.  For Turkey at least, this is incorrect and outdated information.  More inline with the flow of the discussion, an instructor doesn't need to be an attorney, but they should have at least a working knowledge of the defensive laws of the country in which they teach.  If they don't then they can't pass this information on to students.  Although a martial art may be taken for sport, social interaction, a hobby or anything other than self-defense, the bottom line is that it is (at least as a label) a _martial_ art.  If one should need to use it as a defensive tool then a working understanding of the law will go a long way to hopefully keep one out of trouble.  One needs to be able to intelligently articulate what they did and why they did it.


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## oftheherd1

Kong Soo Do said:


> Many times a country is labeled for a particular belief.  Sometimes that belief is valid, sometimes it is outdated and occasionally it is entirely incorrect.  For example, it was often said that in Turkey (and other Muslim countries) that if you hit a goat or cow or other farm animal you would have to pay for the animal itself, all the milk it would have produced and all the offspring it would have had for a certain amount of generations.  For Turkey at least, this is incorrect and outdated information.  More inline with the flow of the discussion, an instructor doesn't need to be an attorney, but they should have at least a working knowledge of the defensive laws of the country in which they teach.  If they don't then they can't pass this information on to students.  Although a martial art may be taken for sport, social interaction, a hobby or anything other than self-defense, the bottom line is that it is (at least as a label) a _martial_ art.  If one should need to use it as a defensive tool then a working understanding of the law will go a long way to hopefully keep one out of trouble.  One needs to be able to intelligently articulate what they did and why they did it.



That brings up the interesting question as to whether or not a person is responsible in any country for the consequences of teaching a martial art.  That is, if you teach a martial art, and a student uses it, provoked or unprovoked, is the teacher then responsible?  Especially if it is used in a manner considered illegal in that country.  I doubt that is so, but I couldn't be sure some country or culture would not hold a teach responsible.  If that were so, a teacher would need to know the laws of the country for sure.  Other than that, a teacher would probably be best advised not to try and become a lawyer as well.


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## Kong Soo Do

oftheherd1 said:


> That brings up the interesting question as to whether or not a person is responsible in any country for the consequences of teaching a martial art.  That is, if you teach a martial art, and a student uses it, provoked or unprovoked, is the teacher then responsible?  Especially if it is used in a manner considered illegal in that country.  I doubt that is so, but I couldn't be sure some country or culture would not hold a teach responsible.  If that were so, a teacher would need to know the laws of the country for sure.  Other than that, a teacher would probably be best advised not to try and become a lawyer as well.



That is an interesting question.  I know that according to Uechi-Ryu history, Uechi Kanbun Sensei while teaching in China taught a student who reportedly killed a man over a land dispute.  The actual details are fuzzy, and according to some it was actually Uechi Kanbun Sensei that killed a man.  But going by the history as presented, Uechi Kanbun Sensei felt such personal responsibility for his students actions that he quite teaching and moved back to Okinawa, vowing to never teach again.  This isn't a vow he kept, but it was many years before he actually taught again.  A different version of the story is that the Chinese community no longer trusted Uechi Kanbun Sensei and would not allow him to teach any longer.  

Closer to home, as a L.E. instructor I am 'somewhat' responsible for what and how I teach.  For example, if I teach properly I can be called into court as an expert witness to discuss what was taught, why it was taught and the expected outcome(s).  I'm not on trial personally, but I have to be able to intelligently articulate the details of the training and if the Officer/Deputy/Agent used the training according to policy and how it was taught.  If I taught something outside the course outline and the Officer/Deputy/Agent used it with a bad outcome I _possibly could _be called into question.  I've not seen that happen, but that isn't to say it couldn't happen or has happened to some instructor somewhere.  

Could a martial arts instructor be called into a court of law to explain what he has taught, to whom he has taught it and why he has taught it?  Yes.  Would he be directly 'on trial'?  No.  But from a business aspect it probably wouldn't do very well to have bad publicity because you taught something 'incorrectly' or to the wrong person or in an irresponsible manner.  I'm not sure there is a criminal law but certainly anyone can be civilly sued.  

It would be interesting to hear what other countries do or have done.


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## oftheherd1

Kong Soo Do said:


> That is an interesting question.  I know that according to Uechi-Ryu history, Uechi Kanbun Sensei while teaching in China taught a student who reportedly killed a man over a land dispute.  The actual details are fuzzy, and according to some it was actually Uechi Kanbun Sensei that killed a man.  But going by the history as presented, Uechi Kanbun Sensei felt such personal responsibility for his students actions that he quite teaching and moved back to Okinawa, vowing to never teach again.  This isn't a vow he kept, but it was many years before he actually taught again.  A different version of the story is that the Chinese community no longer trusted Uechi Kanbun Sensei and would not allow him to teach any longer.
> 
> Closer to home, as a L.E. instructor I am 'somewhat' responsible for what and how I teach.  For example, if I teach properly I can be called into court as an expert witness to discuss what was taught, why it was taught and the expected outcome(s).  I'm not on trial personally, but I have to be able to intelligently articulate the details of the training and if the Officer/Deputy/Agent used the training according to policy and how it was taught.  If I taught something outside the course outline and the Officer/Deputy/Agent used it with a bad outcome I _possibly could _be called into question.  I've not seen that happen, but that isn't to say it couldn't happen or has happened to some instructor somewhere.
> 
> Could a martial arts instructor be called into a court of law to explain what he has taught, to whom he has taught it and why he has taught it?  Yes.  Would he be directly 'on trial'?  No.  But from a business aspect it probably wouldn't do very well to have bad publicity because you taught something 'incorrectly' or to the wrong person or in an irresponsible manner.  I'm not sure there is a criminal law but certainly anyone can be civilly sued.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear what other countries do or have done.



Yes, it would be interesting.  I think in the USA, a lot would depend on pre-testimony preparation.  As I am sure you know Kong Soo Do, a smart lawyer will discuss testimony with a witness prior to trial.  Not to tell the witness what to say (illegal), but to explore what will be asked and learn expected answers.  Questions can be modified if necessary.  For the LE instructor, it would seem important to make sure the lawyer knows what to ask since this is a field most lawyers won't be familiar with.  In the event the instructor is also a MA, it is important to emphacise the training needed to achieve whatever belt(s) the instructor has, which elevates the instructor to an even higher level of expertise.  It would probably help to explain what different styles bring to the art of an MA.  

This actually brings up another question I have often had, and a co-worker and I have discussed.  How does one equate black belts to formal college education?  Is a 1st dan equivalent to an undergrad degree?  If so, what constitutes a master and a doctorate.  Is all that work for 1st dan only equivalent to a HS diploma?  Therefore 2nd dan and higher being needed for undergrad equivalent?  That could also be useful to a lawyer in qualifying a witness as an expert.

I don't know if that has ever been discussed here at MT.  Either way, it would be interesting to get other's opinions.  It could be useful in court.  What do those here who have or are approaching their black belt level think?


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## Kong Soo Do

oftheherd1 said:


> This actually brings up another question I have often had, and a co-worker and I have discussed. How does one equate black belts to formal college education? Is a 1st dan equivalent to an undergrad degree? If so, what constitutes a master and a doctorate. Is all that work for 1st dan only equivalent to a HS diploma? Therefore 2nd dan and higher being needed for undergrad equivalent? That could also be useful to a lawyer in qualifying a witness as an expert.
> 
> I don't know if that has ever been discussed here at MT. Either way, it would be interesting to get other's opinions. It could be useful in court. What do those here who have or are approaching their black belt level think?



I don't know, but interesting thought.  It seems like it would be hard to equate the two.  Which art or arts would it be based on?  Different arts have different length times to reach a first Dan as well as the higher Dan levels.  Who would make the final determination?


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## oftheherd1

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't know, but interesting thought.  It seems like it would be hard to equate the two.  Which art or arts would it be based on?  Different arts have different length times to reach a first Dan as well as the higher Dan levels.  Who would make the final determination?



Well, I hadn't considered the question you correctly raise about different styles and different lengths required in different styles.  Or how does one equate a short seminar where one obtains rank of 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Dan from a school?

But assume a traditional schooling of say 1 or two or more years to 1st Dan, with similar lengths for subsequent Dan rankings.  Do you think that can be related to under-grad or post grad education?  I am inclined to think so, just not sure where the break downs should be.  Again, consider the time spent in getting a 4 year degree.  There is the time in class and the time independent study.  There is class taught learning, and there is homework to strengthen those skills.  It amounts to a lot of hours in study.  Granted there are other classes in college besides those specific to the degree material.  Does that put a MA ahead or behind?

Any thoughts by anyone?  Just for the sake of consideration, or with the idea of in Kong Soo Do's case, one who must qualify as a expert in court, what thoughts do all of you have?


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## Kong Soo Do

That is actually an interesting thought to consider.  I would submit that in order to have it equate as you've suggested that there would be a need for a recognized certifying body.  For example, if I were called into court as a training officer the court would recognize several things;  first, my state certification as an L.E.O. instructor.  Secondly, any further training I've received through our regional training center which is accredited.  Thirdly, the amount of documented experience I can demonstrate in the particular HL field.

For a MA to be accepted, be it in a court or for a degree or any other type of 'officially' recognized certification it would have to be recognized by that institution.  In some cases, a MA instructors credentials may be recognized, in others it may not be.  A lot depends on what can be documented.  It would be interesting to hear others thoughts.


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## oftheherd1

Yep, 25 years ago I would have said my certification of my Dan rank with the Korean Hapkido Federation was certification  enough. When I was teaching, that was what I offered, along with my GM's permission to teach. That has changed. 

Whether or not one thinks instructor certifications are good or just money making, the fact is, most who teach these days are expected to have instructor certificaion. Therefor, it would probably be significant in a court of law for any lawyer wishing to contest someone being qualified as an expert. State certificaions for training LEO in defensive measures would certainly not hurt attempts at qualification as an expert.

But suppose all one has to offer is MA training. How might it best be shown at some belted point to qualify one as an expert? Any one want to offer suggestions and why?


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## Kong Soo Do

Perhaps being able to articulate the amount of time it took, and the material demonstrated to become a black belt.  Taken a step further, if one has reached the 'master' level in a particular art, and is able to articulate and demonstrate what it took to achieve that level it may be taken even more seriously.  We have master plumbers, master electricians, master carpenters etc.  Each requires levels of advancement, internship etc.  Yes, some can just assume the title.  But if one can offer certification from a recognized source it would help.  But then the question becomes, 'what is a recognized source'?


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## oftheherd1

Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps being able to articulate the amount of time it took, and the material demonstrated to become a black belt.  Taken a step further, if one has reached the 'master' level in a particular art, and is able to articulate and demonstrate what it took to achieve that level it may be taken even more seriously.  We have master plumbers, master electricians, master carpenters etc.  Each requires levels of advancement, internship etc.  Yes, some can just assume the title.  But if one can offer certification from a recognized source it would help.  But then the question becomes, 'what is a recognized source'?



Hmmm, apprentice, journeyman, master from the trades.  I hadn't considered that.  That might be a way to relate it to a court.  Surely a master plumber or master electrician could qualify as an expert in court?  But somehow, it just seems there is more in the knowledge required, and the practice required, and time spent doing it, for comparisons to college.

But maybe not.  I need to think on the trades possibilities.  I'll try to get some ideas from some of the trades people I know at work.

Anyone else have any ideas?


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## Kong Soo Do

oftheherd1 said:


> Hmmm, apprentice, journeyman, master from the trades. I hadn't considered that. That might be a way to relate it to a court. Surely a master plumber or master electrician could qualify as an expert in court? But somehow, it just seems there is more in the knowledge required, and the practice required, and time spent doing it, for comparisons to college.
> 
> But maybe not. I need to think on the trades possibilities. I'll try to get some ideas from some of the trades people I know at work.
> 
> Anyone else have any ideas?



Any luck on this?


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## Kong Soo Do

oftheherd1 said:


> Hmmm, apprentice, journeyman, master from the trades.  I hadn't considered that.  That might be a way to relate it to a court.  Surely a master plumber or master electrician could qualify as an expert in court?  But somehow, it just seems there is more in the knowledge required, and the practice required, and time spent doing it, for comparisons to college.
> 
> But maybe not.  I need to think on the trades possibilities.  I'll try to get some ideas from some of the trades people I know at work.
> 
> Anyone else have any ideas?



Not an easy task.  

I'd like to see more examples of members who have used their training in self-defense.  Every incident can be utilized as a learning tool.


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## shesulsa

Kong Soo Do said:


> Not an easy task.
> 
> I'd like to see more examples of members who have used their training in self-defense.  Every incident can be utilized as a learning tool.



Someone I had an underlying conflict with for a lot of years embraced me - one arm over and one arm under such that my right arm was under his left and  my left arm was over his right. I was wary of this and for good reason - he turned quickly and tried to hip-throw me. I saw it coming so I dropped my weight a little, applied pressure points on the side of his neck with my right hand. My left hand found his left up on my left shoulder, so I grabbed his wrist, took the slack out of it, rotated the arm to lock it out across the back of my shoulders, stepped out to the left with one foot - he lost his balance here and reeled backward. I dropped down to one knee.  The table broke and he was surprised as hell.  "Are we done?"  

His reply, "Yeah, and that will never happen again."

"Let's make sure it doesn't."

He is my brother. I think I earned some of his respect that day. He resorted to idle, long distance threats until he got clean. Our relationship is much better now.

This is not a technique per se in our system but all the core elements were applied:

Dropped my center
Locked out the arm
Pressure point attack
Pain compliance
Control of the opponent
efficiency of motion


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## Kong Soo Do

shesulsa said:


> This is not a technique per se in our system but all the core elements were applied:



This is an excellent example of how the martial arts are realistically applied.  Real altercations are not choreographed affairs, except in Hollywood.  Real altercations are chaotic and usually ugly affairs.  One may not be apple to apply/use a specific technique as learned in the Dojang, which is why it is more important to have understanding/master of the principles behind the technique(s).  The principles can then be applied/utilized under duress with a flow from one to the next if necessary.

Thank you for the post and excellent point!


----------

