# Dan rank in another system - your input...



## A.R.K. (Feb 9, 2003)

Here is a question for your consideration...

An individual has earned Dan rank in one or more systems.  The individual comes in contact with the founder/Head Grandmaster etc of a style or system that differs from the ones he/she has attained Dan rank.  The Grandmaster of the differing style/system decides to honor this individual with Dan rank in his [the GM] style/system due to factors such as reputation, achievments, teaching ability, contributions to the Arts etc.

In your opinion, can a Grandmaster do this?  Does he have that authority concerning who he considers worthy to issue Dan rank in his style/system.  Is the Dan rank legitimate?  

I look forward to opinions from everyone.  I'll check back in a day or so.  Thanks for your considered input.

Stay safe.


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## Aegis (Feb 9, 2003)

A Grandmaster (by which I assume you mean the head of a system) answers to no-one within his system, so he can do whatever he likes when it comes to awarding ranks. However, if he awards a Dan grade in his system to someone who has never trained in it, he cheapens the whole grading structure. 

Honorary grades are different, but these days it seems to be fairly commonplace for honorary grades to be mistaken for real grades, which again causes problems.

I suppose the simple answer would be to award Dan grades only to those who have actually trained in the system, to people you would be proud to have as students. After all, if I graded someone to a rank in Judo (which I can't do anyway, not being a coach and all  ) when all they've trained in is karate, then their rank would not be indicitive of their ability in judo. It makes no sense to do that.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> In your opinion, can a Grandmaster do this?  Does he have that authority concerning who he considers worthy to issue Dan rank in his style/system.  Is the Dan rank legitimate?
> *



If the person didn't study the style and therefore doesnt know it he shouldnt be ranked in it.

Also, if a person doesnt do whatever style you do he shouldnt be giving you rank in your own art.

There is a dipstick here in Tokyo that is a Judoka by the name of Saito or Sato that runs the Kokusai Budoin (International Martial Arts Federation). I met him at a demo they gave here. The group has members from all kinds of arts karate, kenjutsu, judo, jujutsu etc
When I met Saito/Sato he asked if I might like to demonstrate karate at one of his little shindigs. I told him maybe but it depends on my schedule.
Saito/Sato added to his invitation that I would first have to be graded in their Kokusai Budoin. (i.e cough up some cash)
I asked him who would be grading me and he said he would. 
I then asked him what he knew about karate since he was a Judoka.he said he could tell what grade I was because he knew martial spirit when he saw it.
At that I asked him which was the proper way to do a certain technique..of course he was clueless. So I told him he had no business offering me dan ranks in an art he knew nothing about and he could take his dan factory and go fxxk himself. Which is the same response I give to all dan factoriesespecially ones offering me rank.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *Honorary grades are different, but these days it seems to be fairly commonplace for honorary grades to be mistaken for real grades, which again causes problems.
> *



I agree.
Honorary grades are just that Honorary and should state so, and shouldn't be confused with real grades.


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## DAC..florida (Feb 9, 2003)

I AGREE THAT A GRANDMASTER OR FOUNDER OF A STYLE CAN PRETTY MUCH DO WHAT THEY WANT WITHIN THIER OWN STYLE, WHO COULD TELL THEM THEY CANT!!!!
ON THE SAME NOTE I ALSO AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE AN HONOR AND VERY RESPECTFUL TO DO THIS BUT IF IT WERE ME, I WOULD SPECIFY THAT IT WAS AN HONORARY TITLE TO AVOID ANY QUESTIONS THAT MAY COME UP IN THE FUTURE ABOUT THIS PERSON NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT STYLE. THE GRANDMASTER SHOULD ALSO BE AWARE OF PAPER CHAMPIONS AND MAKE SURE THIS PERSON KNOWS THIER SH#T.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I AGREE THAT A GRANDMASTER OR FOUNDER OF A STYLE CAN PRETTY MUCH DO WHAT THEY WANT WITHIN THIER OWN STYLE, WHO COULD TELL THEM THEY CANT!!!!
> ON THE SAME NOTE I ALSO AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE AN HONOR AND VERY RESPECTFUL TO DO THIS BUT IF IT WERE ME, I WOULD SPECIFY THAT IT WAS AN HONORARY TITLE TO AVOID ANY QUESTIONS THAT MAY COME UP IN THE FUTURE ABOUT THIS PERSON NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT STYLE. THE GRANDMASTER SHOULD ALSO BE AWARE OF PAPER CHAMPIONS AND MAKE SURE THIS PERSON KNOWS THIER SH#T. *



Ya know on the Internet all caps means you are yelling........just a thought.:shrug:


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## Hollywood1340 (Feb 10, 2003)

I've been told General Choi's first TKD ranking was an HONORARY fourth dan, later _taken back_.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *I've been told General Choi's first TKD ranking was an HONORARY fourth dan, later taken back. *




I have never heard that. Maybe you should take that up in the TKD/Korean arts section. They might know more about it.


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 10, 2003)

After ten years training in Japanese Shoto-ryu [Tani-ha], I went to Okinawa to begin training in Goju-ryu. In Shito-ryu I had reached nidan [2nd dan] level, however, I trained in Goju-ryu for three years before being tested, and then I was awarded shodan [1st dan]. Did this mean that my Shito-ryu grade was of no value, or of less value than a grade in Goju-ryu? I don't think so.
When I came to Goju-ryu I was not a beginner in karate, but I was in Goju-ryu, so I had to just train and try to learn and aquire some understanding. Once I had, and that became clear to my sensei, he tested me for the first level of proficency. I'm glad to say I passed.
Having some ability in one system will no doubt help you [?] if you change systems, but that's not the same as 'understanding' the system you are new to.
Mike.


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## chufeng (Feb 10, 2003)

Hollywood wrote: 





> I've been told General Choi's first TKD ranking was an HONORARY fourth dan, later taken back.



General Choi founded TKD...how could anyone award him honorary rank in it? He was, in fact, a NiDan in Shotokan Karate prior to founding TKD...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Cthulhu (Feb 10, 2003)

If your style and this hypothetical grandmaster's style were similar, maybe.  I stress *maybe*.  By similar, I mean the same kata are trained, and the same fundamentals.

However, if your studying, say, Wing Chun, and some GM from a karate system wants to give you dan ranking, why take it?  You can't teach the system.  You don't know the forms, or at least, don't know them well.  Your fundamental techniques will be vastly different.  The only reason to accept it would be to inflate your background.

And that's just wrong.

Cthulhu


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## Hollywood1340 (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Hollywood wrote:
> 
> General Choi founded TKD...how could anyone award him honorary rank in it? He was, in fact, a NiDan in Shotokan Karate prior to founding TKD...
> ...



The founding of TKD was a group effort, and history has shown that the General took to much of the credit.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *The founding of TKD was a group effort, and history has shown that the General took to much of the credit. *




Never heard that before.
Can you direct us to any info (website/book) on what you are talking about?


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## jazkiljok (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *
> However, if your studying, say, Wing Chun, and some GM from a karate system wants to give you dan ranking, why take it?  You can't teach the system.  You don't know the forms, or at least, don't know them well.  Your fundamental techniques will be vastly different.  The only reason to accept it would be to inflate your background.
> 
> ...



ok- i'm all against one style promoting another without any background or standing in the other style... BUT if you're giving a rank recognition cause you are simply giving your own thumbs up to the instructor- i don't see that as wrong  in and of itself.

If you hang up some honorary certificate and the wording lets you know that it's honorary-- then i can see it being not big deal to display your acceptance by other martial artists. As long as you stay honest about it -if not, probably tells us a lot about the guy who handed it out in the first place as well as the guy who recevied it.

I mean they hand out honorary PH'ds-- and those folks can freely put them up in their offices-- it just goes without saying that you don't go around trying to teach at a  university with it or misrepresent its intent to others.

peace
:asian: 

Jaz K.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

Some styles over lap..a bit anyway.
I teach one of Kise Fuses 3rd dans and although we do the same kata they arent always done the same way between us, they are similar and he and I can be on the same page sometimes but at times it seems we are reading from two different books about the same kata.
Kise was kohai (Jr. student) to my teacher, Mr. Oyata, in Nakamura Shigerus Okinawa Kenpo dojo back in the 50~60s.
However, Kises version of the Naihanchis, Pinanas, and Kusanku katas are a bit different than the ones we learn.
This could be because he has modified them or is doing the Matsumura Shorin ryu version or any number of reasons.
He also teaches different bunkai to go with them.
I couldnt in my right mind expect to go to Kises dojo and get ranked without actually training with him and knowing the in & outs of what he teaches. 
I could probably to pass myself off as one of his students by doing some of the kata the way his dojo does them, but that is not what gets you ranked. 
Anyone can do monkey see monkey do karate, thats not hard.
Its the techniques, the performance there of and the understanding of them that is the foundation for the rank.


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## Marginal (Feb 10, 2003)

Arnold Schwarzenegger was awarded a rank in TKD a couple of years ago. Arnold himself professes no understanding of or inclination to study a MA. 

I would not want to or be able to learn TKD from Arnold even if he had a 7th dan BB or whatever.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 11, 2003)

Some of the discussion here brings up a good question...

What constitutes a legitimate Dan rank?  Speaking about an individual in his/her own system of choice, who is the authority, or by what authority does he/she receive Dan rank?

Look forward to the input....


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## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

I was trained here in the SF Bay Area in a system. My Sifu was trained by his father who was a student of the founder.

My Sifu does not certify and I no longer train with my Sifu so I went outside to another source to certify.

A fellow student of my Sifus father went on to found his own system based on the original system. He taught a student who went on to found his own system based on the system that he was taught. Now this man promoted me in his system and given me permission to teach his system which is based on the same system that I was trained in. 

Note: we came down with the same lineage very closely. And we both learned the same original systems that are instructors had learned. He promoted me to full instructor in that system as well based on what I had been trained in and the fact that I had video taped my Sifu teaching me for over 2 years in that system and that I have expanded on that for several more years since we made the original tapes.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 11, 2003)

Teacher A teaches Yiliquan.  Teacher B teaches Ryu Te Karate.  Student X wants to learn both.

Student X puts in years of training in Yiliquan.  He is ranked at a particular "dan" rank.  He begins to study with Teacher B.

Because Yiliquan and Ryu Te Karate both punch and kick, both practice forms, both have joint locks and concealed techniques within their forms, should Student X expect Teacher B to recognize his rank under Teacher A and grant him similar rank in Ryu Te Karate (even though Student X just started studying)?

Not just no, but *hell no*.

There are similarities between nearly ever art if you look closely enough.  There are more similarities between some arts, far fewer between others.  But no matter how closely they may resemble each other, that _does not_ mean that they are similar enough for a person to allege to have advanced "certification" in that style without having sufficient training in that style to warrant "certification" anyway!

:angry:

I can't believe this is actually an issue.  

If I go to school to learn to fly a Cessna, and I am a certified pilot of a Cessna, then that is all I am certified, by training, to fly.

Can I then go to an aviation school and say "I know how to fly a Cessna, so please certify me on flying 767 Jumbo Jets, because they are both planes and are so similar in the method of their piloting."

How about having a podiatrist perform surgery in place of a neurosurgeon...  They are both doctors, after all, and they both study the same human body, and since everything is the same there shouldn't be a difference, right?

How about since I have a college degree in X, why can't I get another one in Y, even though I didn't take any of the required classes, but a degree is a degree, after all, and college educations are all so similar that they amount to the same thing in the end anyway...

We need a smilie to represent "bullsh*t," so I could include it here. :angry:

The premise of ranking in styles other than the one you have studied is assinine.  It fails the logic test straight out of the gate.  If a "grandmaster" (whatever the hell _that_ means) bestows rank upon someone who has never, not a single solitary day, trained under him (or another instructor) in that style, then regardless of what Heavenly rank he may or may not have, he has absolutely no business whatsoever "promoting" said individual to any grade, basic nor advanced.

Sorry to get all heated about this, but it just amazes me how someone can manage to follow the train of thought on this and not reach the same conclusions.

*akja -*

I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you, but you provided an example that fails the logic test as well...



> I was trained here in the SF Bay Area in a system. My Sifu was trained by his father who was a student of the founder.
> 
> My Sifu does not certify and I no longer train with my Sifu so I went outside to another source to certify.
> 
> ...



You studied Style 1.6, your sifu studied 1.5, your sifu's dad 1.4.  A student of your sifu's dad created his own style based on version 1.4, taught that to someone else who learned 1.4 beta.  So you are now ranked in 1.4 beta but have never formally studied it long enough to warrant that grade anyway?  You received ranking because you have a similar lineage traced back to the same person?  So if you are an instructor in 1.4 beta, and you learned 1.6, but now you teach 1.7, what are you actually "certified" to teach?  It just doesn't make any sense...  

Feel free to continue on at will...  I am still reeling from the fact that this is a question that needs to be asked.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> I can't believe this is actually an issue.
> *



I can. 
Getting the approval of others for credentials and ranks is ALWAYS an issue with fakes and wannabees. 

This game of getting recognition by others outside your own training realm has really taken off since the Internet started. Not only has the dan factory business taken off so have the mutual rank approval socities. Both are a joke and so are the people that participate in them. 

Then they can say well master so and so recognizes me so I am legit.
I guess it has some sort of fairy godmother magic and once they are blessed they aguire all the skills and knowledge needed. 
:rofl:


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## chufeng (Feb 11, 2003)

Un-friggin-believable!!!

It's like: "I have seven brown belts...that should add up to something like 5th dan, right?"

NO...It adds up to seven friggin brown belts...in other words, "I almost got far enough to really learn something, but then changed systems (for whatever reasons)...so now I should be recognized for all of my work in those other systems, even though I never qualified for dan rank in any of them..."

Give me a break...this has nothing to do with traditionalism...it is quite simply a rip-off of those who would train in such a system.

In an old Okinawan system...not only did they not MMA...they oftentimes focused on one or two or three (at the most) forms...
THAT took them an entire lifetime to digest and understand...HOW can anyone learn anything except the superficial stuff with the approach proposed by AKJA (and others)?

If you go to the well of knowledge, drink deeply...or don't drink at all.

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Feb 11, 2003)

Very interesting the things people lose control over.  Makes me wonder about how they would deal with a real issue that comes up in their lives....

I ask again, what constitutes a 'real' Dan rank and who has the authority to issue such rank?


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## sweeper (Feb 11, 2003)

well if by grandmaster you mean a head of a system than I guess yeah he could give an outsider dan ranking in that system, but by doing so he in effect lowers the level of skill required to be that rank to whatever level of skill this special case has. In other words if stylist of style X has zero knowledge of style Y yet Grandmaster of Y gives Stylist of X a given rank in Y that rank (and presumably all below it if rank is linear) now requires zero skill. So basicly giving rank without merit invalidates any ranking given in that system. But I still think it can be done..  just would be stupid.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Very interesting the things people lose control over.  Makes me wonder about how they would deal with a real issue that comes up in their lives....
> 
> I ask again, what constitutes a 'real' Dan rank and who has the authority to issue such rank? *



Mr. Shultz - 

It is very interesting that the bulk of the responses to your question have indicated a complete lack of respect for those who would assume that Teacher A of System P can "promote" Student X from System Q to any rank unless Student X studied Teacher A's system...

It is also interesting how you condescend to their (and my) aggravation that such an idea really needs any kind of debate to determine whether such an act is feasible or reasonable.

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your idea of what constitutes real "dan" ranking, and who has the authority to issue such rank...

I think you need to define what "real" means.  I know of two schools from my hometown where a black belt means they are almost ready to be close to being equal to Yiliquan novices with less than 6 months of training.  I know of another school where their 1st kyu students flatly frighten me and I'm glad their school and ours are friends... 

What is "real" black belt material?  Depends on the school.  I'd be happy to share with anyone interested what the examination requirements are for Yiliquan Senior students...  I think many people will balk at the volume of information that is required.  Is that the same amount required everywhere?  No.  Should it be?  It depends on who you ask.  "Real" black belt material is about more than technique, however.  There is insight, experience, humility, confidence, and a whole host of other characteristics that simply are not developed in a year or two of mini-mall dojo training, nor of "recognition" by someone that hasn't spent years watching over your training.

Who has the authority to issue a black belt?  Any teacher who is authorized to promote people of their system to such a grade.  But not someone who is not part of the system you study.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Disco (Feb 12, 2003)

Yiliquan 1. Please forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with your particular style. But that's nothing new, I'm not familiar with a lot of things (Married with children so I'm legally brain dead). Is there information I can access?

Thank You........


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## Kirk (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Yiliquan 1. Please forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with your particular style. But that's nothing new, I'm not familiar with a lot of things (Married with children so I'm legally brain dead). Is there information I can access?
> 
> Thank You........ *



Thats an entirely different subject.  I opened one up that you
can contribute in, here.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Teacher A teaches Yiliquan.  Teacher B teaches Ryu Te Karate.  Student X wants to learn both.
> 
> Student X puts in years of training in Yiliquan.  He is ranked at a particular "dan" rank.  He begins to study with Teacher B.
> ...




You don't seem to understand what I've done and where I've been since I wore those brown belts and you are wearing my patients thin. You guys knickpicked me to death so I adjusted my site, please don't get mad again.

You just don't understand JKD. Either you have it or you don't.  Don't take it personal but your to caught up on the traditionalism which has nothing to do with the Oakland JKD school. You guys have knickpicked like you really know me or something.

DO ANY OF YOU KNICKPICKERS HAPPEN TO LIVE IN CALIFORINA?
I'D LIKE TO SEE WHAT MAKES YOU RANK BETTER THAN MINE!
MY EMAIL IS IN MY PROFILE! 
I'm not trying to start anything here. You haven't listened to anything I've said. You only see through the eyes of TMA which just isn't the case here.

Your probably very well versed in your art but JKD is like BJJ in the sense that you can go to other schools. The JKD world is universal.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *You don't seem to understand what I've done and where I've been since I wore those brown belts and you are wearing my patients thin. You guys knickpicked me to death so I adjusted my site, please don't get mad again.
> 
> You just don't understand JKD. Either you have it or you don't.  Don't take it personal but your to caught up on the traditionalism which has nothing to do with the Oakland JKD school. You guys have knickpicked like you really know me or something. *




Unlike yourself that has called me a liar and said my training was typical American karate and then added that it was WEAK.



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *DO ANY OF YOU KNICKPICKERS HAPPEN TO LIVE IN CALIFORINA?
> I'D LIKE TO SEE WHAT MAKES YOU RANK BETTER THAN MINE!
> MY EMAIL IS IN MY PROFILE! *



UH OH here it is the BIG INTERNET CHALLENGE.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I'm not trying to start anything here. *



Sure you are. You just threw out a challenge over the Internet.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

I really would like to meet you 3 stooges:
chufeng, RyuShiKan, Yiliquan1

IF YOUR ART IS AS BAD AS YOUR BIG MOUTHS,
I WILL BOW DOWN!!


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I really would like to meet you 3 stooges:
> chufeng, RyuShiKan, Yiliquan1
> 
> ...



And what would you do if you did meet one of us??

Virtual Sensei 
How To Spot "Teachers" Worth Avoiding 

The VS, by contrast, can't stand to be questioned. Bullies are quick to anger, and martial arts frauds are insecure and easily threatened. When they find themselves cornered they will start swearing and making vulgar threats, often sending e-mail or private messages to their detractors. These messages would make a sailor blush, and often include explicit or implicit threats of bodily harm.

A more subtle VS tactic is to politely invite the critic for a "free lesson" at the VS's school. The implied threat is the same. 
Oh? What school are you with? Where do you teach or train? Why don't you post your location so we can seek you out? What are you afraid of? ...If you think I'm not skilled, why don't you stop by my dojo? I'll be happy to give you some free, hands-on instruction.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

Just turn on the camcorder and see whose art is !functional!"


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## shadowdragon (Feb 12, 2003)

I simply think that the GM/founder has the authority to give Dan ranks to someone owning dan rank/ranks in another art,  since no one can question his authority, but those dan-ranks are not legitimate if the person in question has no training whatsoever in a particular art.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I really would like to meet you 3 stooges:
> chufeng, RyuShiKan, Yiliquan1
> 
> ...



You are welcome to train with us any time you find yourself in the Pacific NW.  Let me know when you will be up here, and I will put you up myself...

I wanna be Curly Joe, though...  He has a way with the ladies...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

I let loose a little to easily, accept my opology for my ignorance but I've been on the defensive end for a few days now. I will be up there in the future and maybe we could workout. thats what i plan on doing for the rest of my life is travel and train around the world.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

Yiliquan1,



> It is also interesting how you condescend to their (and my) aggravation that such an idea really needs any kind of debate to determine whether such an act is feasible or reasonable.



Why would it aggrivate you?  The purpose of this board has been the exchange of information/ideas amoung varied individuals.  I think it folly to assume that everyone thinks the same way, thus it is interesting to put forth questions and learn from intelligent responses.  

It is also a character test of sorts.  Being new to this particular site I want to get the feel of the thoughts and ideas of 'regulars'.  Never know when you might pick up some new information or a twist that you had not considered before.



> Perhaps you could enlighten us with your idea of what constitutes real "dan" ranking, and who has the authority to issue such rank...



I would be happy to give my thoughts as to this.  Basically 'belts' are, if I'm not mistaken, a Judo invention of sorts.  The idea spread from there and seems to be quite popular around the world.  We still have sashes and the like, but belts have taken off quite a bit.  A belt is basically a measure of skill, at least ideally.  Since most martial arts systems did not start off with them they have been 'borrowed'.  

You mentioned somewhere recently your Dan rank I believe, and I apologies that I do not remember it.  But it is a measure of your skill in the eyes of your instructors.  I'm sure it is also a measure of your character, commitment and contrubutions to your style.  Boiled down, is that not the bottom line?  A student's overall ability in the eyes of their instructor?  

The words 'real' or 'legitimate' could be considered subjective terms with no real meaning when applied to 'rank' be it belt, sash or other.  Who granted you your present rank?  Answer is more than likely your instructor.  Who gave him/her that right?  Answer, their instructor.  So on and so forth all the way back in the lineage to either the beginning of the present rank structure of the system founder.  In either case, who gave them rank or the authority to issue rank in the style they created?  Nobody did because they were the first one so to speak with no 'head'.  Or, someone from another system 'allowed' them to start their own off-shoot and recognized them as the head...but of a different style than their own.  

Do you see the point?  In general terms you have your rank ultimately from someone who did not have rank, they 'ivented' it so to speak for themselves for the purposes of testing others skill.  OR, you have your present rank ultimately from someone who had no rank but was given permission and recognized from someone outside your present style to do so.  So at some point along the line your 'founder' either was granted rank from another GM or 'founder' or he gave the rank to himself.

Does this invalidate your rank?  Or mine?  Or everyone here?  Well, ultimately from a purely technical perspective the arguement could be made that yes we don't have 'real' rank because nobody else did up the pyramid.  Because that same GM that granted someone else permission and recognition himself is in the same boat.  

But I don't think there will be an enmass voluntary turn in of belts any time soon,do you?     Of course not.  Rank may have been 'earned' along the line but it was created out of thin air at the top.  

But since 'rank' is now the accepted norm I would suggest that if a GM/founder/whatever wishes to grant rank to another in his particular discipline he is not doing anything that was not done at some point originally by those that came before him.  I would clarify that if it is done purely for $ gain and not based on more noble qualities then it is wrong.  However, if that system head deems someone truly worthy because of reputation, qualifications, contributions etc then it is entirely up to them and completely within their 'authority' to do so.

Ryushikan,

I'm beginning to wonder if you are truly that angry with me or if this is some sort of baptism by fire ritual some newbies go through?  Either way.  You continually are interested in my qualifications, history etc al.  I am curious about this, and you.  Up until today I was simply going to ignore you as just antagonistic, but I am curious if there is more than meets the eye?  

One of the reasons I have not given you my lineage is because on a different thread, to a different poster you trashed his lineage.  I don't know if you are/were correct in your assestment or not, and it's none of my business.  But by and large you seem prepared and determined to respond negatively to quite a bit.  First, if his lineage was questionable, why say so?  Truth be told, we ALL have questionable lineage in one way or another, you, me, everyone here.  There are skeletons in all of our 'lineage' closets.  And just based on the short time I've been exposed to you, you'll try to find something to bash or go with the 'never heard of em'.  I could be wrong, but I base this on my evaluation of you so far.  I have confidence in those that have taught me and evaluated me.  My background has been scrutinized extensively by those who have more years than you and I put together.  By those that have impecable reputations in the MA community.  They were satisfied enough to put their very names on the line to vouch for my background, my 'lineage'.  That is enough for me.  If this is not enough for you then thats a shame.

Either way, I would love to fellowship with you if you are willing to put aside the antagonism.  Perhaps we could even learn from one another.  The ball is in your court.  Either way, as I have said to Yiliquan1 I wish you a long, happy, healthy life with much joy.  

Peace


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *  One of the reasons I have not given you my lineage is because on a different thread, to a different poster you trashed his lineage. *



If you are as legit as you claim then you have nothing to worry about.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * Truth be told, we ALL have questionable lineage in one way or another, you, me, everyone here. *



No, thats not true. 
Many people on this board can prove the rank they claim and have been forth coming about.
You on the other hand have skirted the issue every since it was mentioned. 
Basically all you have done is comment on the chip on my shoulder and the way I post.
It would seem this some sort of tactic to discredit me so you wont have to post the information I and several others have asked for.
Never the less, if you have the rank who did you get it from?
If there are teachers in Okinawa teach Shuri Te Ryu who are they?
If you were granted a Soke title in Kobe who gave it to you?
Simple questions that have simple answers.
Usually people that claim certain ranks and titles have no qualms about teling you from who and where they got ranked.
I know I dont



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * And just based on the short time I've been exposed to you, you'll try to find something to bash or go with the 'never heard of em'. *



Hell, I have already done that so what do you have to lose.
If you are as legit as you say nobody will question you.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * I have confidence in those that have taught me and evaluated me.  My background has been scrutinized extensively by those who have more years than you and I put together.  By those that have impecable reputations in the MA community.  They were satisfied enough to put their very names on the line to vouch for my background, my 'lineage'.  That is enough for me.  If this is not enough for you then thats a shame. *



Again, more excuses. 




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * Either way, I would love to fellowship with you if you are willing to put aside the antagonism.  Perhaps we could even learn from one another.  The ball is in your court.
> Either way, as I have said to Yiliquan1 I wish you a long, happy, healthy life with much joy.  Peace  *



Nope the ball is in your court and has been for the last couple of days waiting for you to post the info you have been claiming.
You want to be pals with me fine. But I like to know who my pals are. As a show of good faith post the answers to the questions I and others have asked of you.
Bottom line, you want people to be friendly towards you, respect you, or be "pals" with you then you can't be deceptive like you are now.

I , Yiliquan1, Chufeng & others are pals.
I had never heard of the art they do until I met Yiliquan1. When I asked him who his teacher was he didnt hesitate or give excuses or get paranoid. He answered it like most people with nothing to hide would. Come to find out his teacher and my teacher actually know each other!


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Either way, I would love to fellowship with you if you are willing to put aside the antagonism.  Perhaps we could even learn from one another.  The ball is in your court.  Either way, as I have said to Yiliquan1 I wish you a long, happy, healthy life with much joy.  Peace  *



This is one thing that gets really old on these boards.
People that start their post off by bashing someone, or calling someone xxxx & xxxx.
And then at the end of their post say stuff like I hope we can be friends.

How sincere is that???


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

As I have said, I have nothing that needs to be justified before you.  Others have placed their stamp of approval on me so to speak, so if you don't want to be 'buds' because I don't want to continue playing games with you, then that is fine. You have been negative from your first post towards me, and as I'm finding out, quite a few others.  

Yes you do have questionable lineage, somewhere up the line there is going to be skeletons.  It's admirable of you not to think so, but not very realistic.  I have been 'checked out' by people such as GM Jack 'Pappasan' Stern, GM Yuri Kostrov, Dr. Mihal Pupsh and others.  The KYHA has ties to not only Korea [Dong Koo Yudo Kwan] but to Japan [Kobe], Saudi and quite a few other countries.   My Sokeship is recorded in Kobe with all the honku stamps etc.  You live in Japan feel free to check it out.  That is why I occasionally use the title in corrospondence and on the site.  Right or wrong in your eyes.  

There are three Kata's btw in Pangai-noon.  It found quite a home in the central temple.  And I trained with Brad Barnett in the Military when stationed in Turkey at Incirlik AB.  He was and is my superior...my better in this area.   I was able to maintain a sporatic relationship with him for sometime afterwards but we have now gone our separate ways.  He is a good man.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

I have never 'bashed/ you Ryu, I have commented on your lack of courtesy.  I can let your behavior thus far go to the wayside.  Can you start being courteous?  And if not, can you follow the instructions of the Admin and contact me with your remarks via email?  

Peace and love


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *As I have said, I have nothing that needs to be justified before you.  Others have placed their stamp of approval on me so to speak, so if you don't want to be 'buds' because I don't want to continue playing games with you, then that is fine. You have been negative from your first post towards me, and as I'm finding out, quite a few others. *



Asking/Answering a legit question is not a game.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Yes you do have questionable lineage, somewhere up the line there is going to be skeletons.  It's admirable of you not to think so, but not very realistic.  I have been 'checked out' by people such as GM Jack 'Pappasan' Stern, GM Yuri Kostrov, Dr. Mihal Pupsh and others.  The KYHA has ties to not only Korea [Dong Koo Yudo Kwan] but to Japan [Kobe], Saudi and quite a few other countries. *



You have no problem throwing these names out but when it comes to things in Japan you wont. Why is that?



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *  My Sokeship is recorded in Kobe with all the honku stamps etc.  You live in Japan feel free to check it out.  That is why I occasionally use the title in corrospondence and on the site.  Right or wrong in your eyes. *



How can I when you wont post any of the names of your teachers/organizations in Japan.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *  There are three Kata's btw in Pangai-noon.  It found quite a home in the central temple.  And I trained with Brad Barnett in the Military when stationed in Turkey at Incirlik AB.  He was and is my superior...my better in this area.   I was able to maintain a sporatic relationship with him for sometime afterwards but we have now gone our separate ways.  He is a good man. *



There are 4 kata in Pangainoon.
Sanchin
Sesan
Sanseryu
Suparinpe

So is Brad Barnett the person who tested you for 8th dan?


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## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

RyuShiKan, 
Your site claims that you lineage goes back 400 years.

If you could be so kind to give us the exact line of instructors that goes back 400 years.

Just to verify that there are no skeletons in the closet!


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

No, there are only three.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *RyuShiKan,
> Your site claims that you lineage goes back 400 years.
> 
> ...



Mr. Oyatas ancestor was Jana Uekata who was the Lord Chamberlain (basically the #2 guy in Okinawa) to the Ryukyu King during the Satsuma invasion in 1609.
Much of the the Kobudo, Bo specifically, we do comes from the Uhugushku family. 
To be exact, Kenyu "Uni" Uhugushuku (cic. 1454).
Actually it's more like 500 years.

Here is the link to his bio.

http://www.gushikawa.com/oki-cul/ijin/yama-image/yama-01.htm


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *No, there are only three. *



Nope 4.
Take a look at Mark Bisop's book, page 42.
It states that there are 4, however Kanbu Uechi didn't have time to learn the 4th (Suparinpe) due to lack of time.

See you just learned something from me already and we aint even "pals" yet.

Care to clarify that dan/soke info you were asked about?
Maybe some names or organizations.

Since I have emailed you and PMed you feel free to answer here on this thread or by PM/email.

PLease no long daitribe about me or skeletons......just the answers to the questions that have been asked of you repeatedly


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

.


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## Hollywood1340 (Feb 12, 2003)

Yes, it could star a Bruce Lee Look alike, searching through ancient China to verify his lineage, and kicking the crap out of all who dare to question it, because he is "pure" the perfect example of Kung Fu Lineage.
Gentleman, please. This pissing contest is getting old. Altough I must admit going back 400 years does indeed seem like a good question.
Oh, and yes before you ask here's mine:
GM Choi, GM Seo, GM Pelligrini, Taylor, Me
I can clarify if you wish, and back it up with independant data.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *
> Gentleman, please. This pissing contest is getting old. Altough I must admit going back 400 years does indeed seem like a good question.
> *



Just waiting for an answer by post, email, or PM.
As for the lineage.....I have posted it.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *Altough I must admit going back 400 years does indeed seem like a good question.
> *



Why is that so hard to fathom.
Schools like the Katori Shinto Ryu have lineage that is 600 years old.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

Ryushikan,

I received your PM but the reply was to long so I sent it to your email. Please let me know if you received it.

Thank you.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Ryushikan,
> 
> I received your PM but the reply was to long so I sent it to your email. Please let me know if you received it.
> ...




Yes I got.
It still didn't answer any of the questions I asked. 

You claimed Shuri Te Ryu was a legit art in Okianwa.

I asked who teaches it in Okinawa?

You claimed there is some place in Kobe, Japan that you were given the tilte Soke from.

I asked Who and what Organization?

You claim an 8th dan in Pangainoon.

I asked Who tested you for 8th dan?

In your email I got 881 words on various things from family troubles to who your friends trained with but no answer to 3 simple questions.

I fail to see how my questions could be seen as confusing or difficult. Why not just answer them with a simple reply?


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

Ok.

Peace and love.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Ok.
> 
> Peace and love. *



 
Your unwillingness (or is it inability) to put forth the information asked for speaks volumes.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *RyuShiKan,
> Your site claims that you lineage goes back 400 years.
> 
> ...




More on Mr. Oyatas lineage.

Jana Uekata, as stated earlier, was a direct ancestor of Mr. Oyatas and the Lord Chamberlain to the Ryukyu King during the Satsuma invasion of 1609. 
Uekata is a title that was used in Okinawa much as the title Daimyo was used in Japan around the same time period. (Good God, I hope Uekata is not the new buzz word and people dont start calling themselves Uekata like they have used Soke) 
When the Satsuma clan took control they wanted the Ryukyu King to go to Edo (Tokyo) for a visit/audience with the Tokugawa Shogun. This was seen by the Okianwans for what it really was, basically a fancy kidnapping.
The Satsuma figured that with their King in Edo the Okinawans would not dare revolt, which they didnt by the way, and would be easier to manage. The Okinawan King remained in Edo for many years....not sure how many I would have to check.
One of the main protesters to this was Jana Uekata. He resisted the taking of the King and was executed for it.
The Satsuma wanted to make an example out of him and after killing him made all the Jana family change their name to Shinda. Shinda has the same sound as dead in Japanese but use different kanji. The kanji for shinda they were made to use are oya=parent and ta=field, so they can also be pronounced as Oyata. The reason for this "shinda" name change was to remind anyone else that thought of resisting what the consequences would be..........."death" 

Akja, 

Hope this sheds some light on his background.
If not feel free to ask more.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 13, 2003)

I don't want to be Uekata...  I want to be *Shogun*!  

Anybody remember Sho' Nuff, the Shogun of Harlem?  Football shoulder pads, red hakama and untied hightop sneakers...

SHO' NUFF!

WHAT'S MY NAME???

*SHO' NUFF*

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I don't want to be Uekata...  I want to be Shogun!
> 
> Anybody remember Sho' Nuff, the Shogun of Harlem?  Football shoulder pads, red hakama and untied hightop sneakers...
> ...



Am I the prettiest mo fo low down around this town?

SHO' NUFF!
:rofl:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 13, 2003)

Of course when I went to the link that you provided, I could not translate it, but you took it upon yourself to shed some lite as you did.

But you did leave a lot of holes, like the names of the actual family members who were approved to teach and pass on the art.

I know there exists much controversy in all of martial art lineage. An example is James Mitose who is responsible of bringing Kenpo to the USA. From him many great warriors have come from students of his students. But everything about him (according to the public) is questionable.

Then theres Choki Motobu. I don't know which story to beleive.

My Instructor lineage (as noted on my site that you should of seen) was broken by my Sijo and has lost tradition from him all the way down to me, but it did show a direct line all the way back to the destruction of the Shaolin Temple.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *But you did leave a lot of holes, like the names of the actual family members who were approved to teach and pass on the art. *



 



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Then theres Choki Motobu. I don't know which story to beleive.
> *



Which stories have you heard?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I don't want to be Uekata...  I want to be Shogun!
> 
> Anybody remember Sho' Nuff, the Shogun of Harlem?  Football shoulder pads, red hakama and untied hightop sneakers...
> ...


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## James Kovacich (Feb 13, 2003)

I believe you lineage is strong. All I mean is you didn't name the instructors. Especially in family arts lineage, not all family members were trained or for that matter approved to teach. Having  the name or being a decendant does not make make the legitimacy. 

I believe that in most lineages there are gray areas that go back far enough that nobody alive can actually dispute.

With Choki Motobu supposedly James Mitose was his nephew, possibly by marriage and that he had taught James Mitose from James being 5 years old until adulthood (15 years+ or -). 

Also I've heard that the Motobu family (possibly aristrocrats or something) would not train Choki. The family style was to be taught to the eldest son which was not Choki. That he became a fighter pretty much on his own from being observant and that eventually someone did take him under their wing but that he only learned one form throughout his lifetime.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I believe you lineage is strong. All I mean is you didn't name the instructors. Especially in family arts lineage, not all family members were trained or for that matter approved to teach. *



I dont have the names of all the family members, maybe you can ask my teacher for that info.
If I did have it I doubt I would have the time to list several hundred years worth on this forum.





> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> With Choki Motobu. supposedly James Mitose was his nephew, possibly by marriage and that he had taught James Mitose from James being 5 years old until adulthood (15 years+ or -). *



Thats BS. There was no connection what so ever between the two.



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Also I've heard tht the Motobu fmily would not train Choki. The family style was to be taught t the eldest son which was not Choki. That he became a fighter pretty much on his own from being observant and that eventually someone did take him under their wing but that he only learned one form throughout his lifetime. *



Choki Motobu was only a half brother of Choyu, the reason being he was the son of his fathers mistress and not his fathers wife. 
Motobu has been painted in a bad light mostly by those that either didnt know him or feared him.
Motobu had several teachers. Several of them are very respected, Itosu is probably the best known, Matsumora (not Matsumura, different guy), his brother was another. 
He did learn much on his own and by testing himself in actual fights.
Contrary to popular BS Motobu is said to have never picked a fight but never ran from one either.
He's been painted out to be rude and crass by the likes of Funakoshi. (long story there) Something that is entirely untrue. Motobu was from one of the highest ranking families in Okinawan, what would be considered royalty today. In Japan and Okianwa there were certain ways to speak to people beneath your class level and above your class level. Since Motobu was of one of the highest class levels and a teacher he felt no need to use overly polite language to his students. This is still common among many Japanese teachers today. He did stress courtacy and manners in his teaching however. One thing that hindered him was his lack of knowledge of Japanese language and customs. Because of that there may have been many people that felt him to be rude. 
Motobu learned many forms and said one only really needs to know one form to be an effective fighter. One can only guess what he was driving at but this statement somehow got twisted into him knowing only one form. I read in one of his books he claimed to know 5 kata.


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 14, 2003)

Zhao Dai Wei,
I knew you were talking B.S. regarding your rank.
Why can't you simply answer the questions with names and dates. It's clear you are yet another "Kuchi Bushi".


Ryu Shin Kan,
Do you think it may have something to do with the water down in Florida 

Keep on truck'in.

Mike.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Zhao Dai Wei,
> I knew you were talking B.S. regarding your rank.
> Why can't you simply answer the questions with names and dates. It's clear you are yet another "Kuchi Bushi".*




Just in case anybody is wondering what a "kuchi bushi" is.....it means "mouth warrior".





> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Ryu Shin Kan,
> Do you think it may have something to do with the water down in Florida
> *



Could be........I don't think it is only Florida though. It seems to be spreading.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

Yes it is spreading but it came from Asia. Based on what I've heard the American teachers were not taught correctly and should not of been given their black belts in the first place!

This bad water is snowballing but who is responsible? The bad "instructors who brought it to America" or the the "bad instuctors" who gave the the rest of the world the right to teach martial arts in the first place.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 14, 2003)

I think this problem has become bigger since the invention of video testing and the Internet.

I have yet to see this problem in Japan or Okinawa but I doubt it is far away.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Yes it is spreading but it came from Asia. Based on what I've heard the American teachers were not taught correctly and should not of been given their black belts in the first place! *



Can you supply any information to support these statements.
Like which teachers........which American black belts.....and how they were taught incorrectly?

I have met several foreigners that got black belts in Japan/Okinawa from pretty respected organizations that suck.

I have also seen some that got black belts from  Japan/Okinawa that were awesome.for example Joe Lewis, Bob Boggs, etc..
So it works both ways.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *This bad water is snowballing but who is responsible? The bad "instructors who brought it to America" or the the "bad instuctors" who gave the the rest of the world the right to teach martial arts in the first place. *



Quite often these foreigners that study in Asia have a tendency to gain dan rank on the plane back to their country. 
I have seen several folks that were say a shodan in this country but mysteriously became 4th or 5th dans on the flight home.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

I based it on what you said about Gogen Yamaguchi and Peter Urbin.

I think its a two way street here. A lot of instructors are accused of gaining rank on the planes not just Americans and then what you ust said about Kise. Its hard to say he learned crappy and teaches wrong, when it could of been avoided by his instructor in the first place.

But like you said good American instructors trained in Asia. Some like Joe Lewis abandoned their traditional training though.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *But like you said good American instructors trained in Asia. Some like Joe Lewis abandoned their traditional training though. *



Actually Lewis didnt abandon his traditional roots. I will send you and anyone else that wants a copy some info on him via email on a PDF file. It's actually too large to post here.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

I got that from an article that he was being interview in Black Belt mag. or one the others. But his Joe Lewis fighting system is based JKD. I found a site that has posted his whole curriculum.

heres the site:

http://www.kenpousa.com/lewis.htm


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## A.R.K. (Feb 14, 2003)

Mike,

You don't know squat.  Otherwise you'd be backing up your allegations with hard fact.  Still waiting......


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Mike,
> 
> You don't know squat.  Otherwise you'd be backing up your allegations with hard fact.  Still waiting...... *




No, I think you should be the one backing up your claims by answering 3 simple questions.
Nobody else seems to mind doing it.why have you played ring around the rosy when being asked SO MANY TIMES?


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## Matt Stone (Feb 14, 2003)

Interestingly enough, on the *Points to Ponder* thread, so far myself, akja and Chufeng have all posted our entire _curricula vitae_ for all to see, read, enjoy and dissect.

I will start a new thread, with my info posted again, encouraging folks to step up to the plate and come clean about their training...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (Feb 14, 2003)

> Nobody else seems to mind doing it.why have you played ring around the rosy when being asked SO MANY TIMES?



You think maybe it was the way you asked Ryushkan?  Do you think it was the way you jumped me from the very beginning and continued slamming me with accusations for ten posts and I had not even had time to respond to your FIRST post?  Go back and look at your posts Ryushikan.  Look at the time frames between them and mine.  I had gone to bed after the second post and my third post was late in the next day.  Forgive me for not living on this site but I do have other responsiblities.  Now look at your time frames, did you give me ANY opportunity?  Did you give me ANY courtesy?  No you went from hostility to being a smart aleck to making inuendo to making accusations all of which were unsubstantiated....and I didn't even have the opportunity to respond to the first one.  You could'nt even wait for a response.  You tried and convicted me and you don't even KNOW me.

So you'll just have to understand if I'm not to overjoyed to be talking to you.  Even your buddy Yiliquan admitted I got e-mugged.  

You think you just might have gotten better responses had you been respectful, courteous even patient?  You know Ryushikan I might even be able to learn something from you...and here's a thought, you might even be able to learn something from me.  Which is one of the whole points to this site in the first place.  

You think about tha Ryushikan.  It would not kill you to start off friendly.  If I tell you to go jump of a bridge then maybe you can get hostile.  

You tell me straight up...did you give me a fair shake from the beginning?  Did you give me a fair opportunity to discuss anything with you?  Right or wrong, agree or disagree...did you have any friendliness in you at all?

From me end it sure didn't look that way.

Yiliquan1,

I've already discussed things in another thread.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 14, 2003)

Zhao Dai Wei, 

First off I was not the only one asking about your obviously totally bogus claims. 
Youre using my jumping on your case as a cop out so you STILL wont have to come clean. Heel I and others could tell you were bogus from you first post.
I even sent you an email and a PM asking you about your bogus claims.
All I got was a whiney sob story of how you werent Hitler but a nice guy and you are busy working 2 jobs, who your friends trained with and a lot of extra information that I didnt ask forbut not answers to the the questions I asked. 

You did say, My system is registered in Kobe, Souel and Rydlk.

Well sport I think I have given you ample time to answer the question both publicly and privately. 
As a long time resident and a very active person in the martial arts community in Japan I can tell you there is no such place to register Soke titles in Kobe. 
Some somebody either lied to you or you yourself are lying.
In fact if you were to register a system and you Soke title in Japan you would go through one of the Kobudo organizations. You think I am giving you the 3rd degreetry registering with one of them! For some reason though I dont think you would cut the mustard with them.

I asked you about Pangainoon kata.
You said there were only 3. Being an 8th dan as you claim you should have know there are 4. You also didnt answer who you got an 8th dan from in your email.

You did claim some American as your teacher in a style you claimed was in Okinawa..you never told me who those Okianwans are that teach this style.

Why am I on your case.because martial arts people that claim bloated dank ranks, Soke titles, etc are a disease and cheapen the martial arts to nothing more than a carnival sideshow and I dont wont to sit idly by and watch that happen. Guys like you with your bloated ranks & fake titles are a dime a dozen on the Internet.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 14, 2003)

Feel better now?  For all your chatter, it is still only your opinion.  Your entitled to it, but doesn't change anything.  Those I respect have given me respect in return.  I have wonderful knoweldge to teach...and do so...mostly for free.  I have real-world, practical knowledge to share...and do.  So you can keep on ranting all that you like it doesn't affect me in the slightest.  I still have BB's in other systems seeking me out to teach them despite your low opinion of me.  

Don't get yourself to worked up though, its not healthy.  Have a nice day.


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## GaryM (Feb 14, 2003)

Ryushikan, 
      this is directed to you.  First of all I have already posted my meger credentials on another thread under the Kenpo techniques forum (see gift of destruction, if that aint it get back to me and I'll give you what you want). After seeing all of show u the way's posts I feel that I must bow to his obvious superiour knowledge and suck up his wisdom. Far more knowledgable people than either you or I have been taken in by his retoric so who are we to challenge his credentials. There is a secret martial arts society here in the U. S. that you may not be aware of and its practicioners are required to take strict oaths never to reveal the true origins of thier 'art', for in reality they can trace thier true origins back to Atlantis. I can only hope that some day I can study with one of these 'masters' and only then will I be able to open my own school and teach a modern version of this ancient art. I think I will call it Tae Kue Ennwe Beesss.  I only hope for whirled peas.


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## chufeng (Feb 15, 2003)

> There is a secret martial arts society here in the U. S. that you may not be aware of and its practicioners are required to take strict oaths never to reveal the true origins of thier 'art', for in reality they can trace thier true origins back to Atlantis



Whatever you are smoking, I want some  

Atlantian Martial Arts...what a concept...but I heard the Atlantians were a very peaceful people and IF they ever needed to defend themselves, they would use their superior science...no hand to hand stuff...

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng (Feb 15, 2003)

and by the way,
RyuShiKan lives in Japan, not the United States...

:asian:
chufeng


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## GaryM (Feb 15, 2003)

This is to 'show the way'. Look guy, if you have some truely good info then present it when the time is appropiate. The forum will pretty much evaluate your opinion/technique and either rip it apart or give alternatives but it will be evaluated on it's own merits. We don't really give a s**t who you are or what your bogus credentials are, what works works and what is bs is just that. BUT .. IF you try to substantiate your opinions with claims to dubious claims of title, even if you do have a valid point you will be reguarded as S**T. Nuf said. By the way anything that I have seen from you so far has been crap. I'm talking on a technical level here, not philosophical, whos your sense or what ever. If you give advice to a question asked on any forum  and I see that you are wrong I will rutlessly tear your logic apart. peace love horshit .


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## GaryM (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *and by the way,
> RyuShiKan lives in Japan, not the United States...
> 
> ...


 I knew that, read the thread. I challenge you to a duel of bongs. Gives a whole new meaning to the term sensie eh?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Feel better now?  For all your chatter, it is still only your opinion.  Your entitled to it, but doesn't change anything.  Those I respect have given me respect in return.  I have wonderful knoweldge to teach...and do so...mostly for free.  I have real-world, practical knowledge to share...and do.  So you can keep on ranting all that you like it doesn't affect me in the slightest.  I still have BB's in other systems seeking me out to teach them despite your low opinion of me.
> 
> Don't get yourself to worked up though, its not healthy.  Have a nice day.   *



As for your fictitious Soke factory down in Kobe......well there is no such place in Kobe that gives out or recognizes Soke titles and that is a fact. If you have some proof to the contrary like maybe some certificate they issued then let's see it.
Funny how every time I ask you to step up to the plate and supply some truth to your claims you babble on about something else either in email or in your posts.

Your message rings home loud and clear. I doubt you have even earned anything higher than a real shodan. 

Whats that Forrest Gump said."Bogus is as bogus does".:rofl:


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## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Feel better now?  For all your chatter, it is still only your opinion.  Your entitled to it, but doesn't change anything.*



Perhaps it _is_ only opinion, but it appears that it is an opinion held by at least 3 - 4 people here so far...  Sure, we aren't necessarily the majority on this board, but we do seem to be the majority of those on this thread vocalizing an opinion on the subject.  Does it change anything?  No.  Does it prove anything?  No again.  Does it continue to speak volumes that rather than posting the information requested you continue to tap dance and evade the issue by trying to put those who question you on trial for having the audacity to do so?  You bet.



> *Those I respect have given me respect in return.*



You have only been posting here for a short time.  So you only return respect to those who have given it to you first?  What have you done here to earn anyone's respect?  I have over 700 posts of speaking my mind, making myself known, being shown my errors and publicly correcting them, showing others that I know what I am talking about and qualifying my information to demonstrate to those here whether I am worthy of their respect or not.  So far all you have done is avoid the questions asked of you.



> *I have wonderful knoweldge to teach...and do so...mostly for free.  I have real-world, practical knowledge to share...and do.  So you can keep on ranting all that you like it doesn't affect me in the slightest.  I still have BB's in other systems seeking me out to teach them despite your low opinion of me.*



Okay, you're a saint.  Are you happy now?  While I admire that you allege to have used your skills in over 200 situations, that you teach for free, yada yada yada, all you seem to do is try to show how selfless and special you are but you continue to avoid providing the answers several people have asked you for.

And stating that black belts from other systems doesn't necessarily support that you are a source of great information and training, but could also be construed as proof that their training could have been lacking in their prior systems...

I am asking nicely.  Please provide your training, complete with names and dates of formal training, practice on your own, advancements, etc., on the Curriculum Vitae thread.  If you don't, fine, but don't continue to play the martyr if others take that as evidence of your having something to hide...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

Yiliquan1, 

I wouldnt hold my breath for any type of answer.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

I don't plan on it.

Gambatte, ne?  Against "bogus budo" wari wari wa gambarimasu...

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I don't plan on it.
> 
> Gambatte, ne?  Against "bogus budo" wari wari wa gambarimasu...
> ...



...........and "kuchi bushi"
Shogani na..sono pepe Soketachi dandan fueteru na.

Ahondara na budoka wa dakidrai


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## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

So.



Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Aegis (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Perhaps it is only opinion, but it appears that it is an opinion held by at least 3 - 4 people here so far...  Sure, we aren't necessarily the majority on this board, but we do seem to be the majority of those on this thread vocalizing an opinion on the subject.  Does it change anything?  No.  Does it prove anything?  No again.  Does it continue to speak volumes that rather than posting the information requested you continue to tap dance and evade the issue by trying to put those who question you on trial for having the audacity to do so?  You bet. *



I'd guess at more than 3-4. Some of us just lurk in the shadows of the board, and only peek out every now and then to add a point. Usually this point has next to no significance, but hey, I value my own input too much.

Anyway, just thought I'd add my name to the list of people that would actually like to hear some straight answers out of this discussion. I'm always happy to provide my credentials, and while they might not be anywhere near as impressive as some people's (and _certainly_ not as impressive as some have claimed  ), I am still entitled to an opinion as much as the next guy.

Aaaanyway, I'm not feeling too well at the moment, so i hope that makes something resembling sense...


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Here is a question for your consideration...
> 
> An individual has earned Dan rank in one or more systems.  The individual comes in contact with the founder/Head Grandmaster etc of a style or system that differs from the ones he/she has attained Dan rank.  The Grandmaster of the differing style/system decides to honor this individual with Dan rank in his [the GM] style/system due to factors such as reputation, achievments, teaching ability, contributions to the Arts etc.
> ...


 


Okay heres 2 examples of 2 great and very influential American martial artist who received their high rank certificates from an outside organization and I have heard nothing of them testing in the organizations or learning these organizations systems for that matter. A lot feathers are about to be ruffled!

http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=hist_gen

CN: How well did you know Ed Parker? 

EMPERADO: Before he started training with Professor Chow, Ed trained with me for about 2 weeks. While he was with me he took the first 8mm movies of the Palama settlement training. I knew him for many years. At times when I was in California he would have me as his guest of honor at the Long Beach Internationals. After Ed left Hawaii he became estranged from Professor Chow. It was Ed who brought kenpo to mainland America, made it popular, and made so many contributions to the art, so in the late 60s I promoted him to 8th degree black belt. 


CN: Kajukenbo has a lot of kung fu elements, did you also train in kung fu? 

EMPERADO: Yes, in my 30s I also trained in various forms of kung fu under , Professor Wong, and Professor Lau. It was several years later that these Professors and the Hawaii Chinese Physical Culture Association awarded me the title of Professor, 10th degree. I was also awarded a certificate by Grandmaster Ho Gau of Hong Kong appointing me as an advisor and representative of the "Choy Li Fut" system. This certificate was signed by Grandmaster Ho Gau, Professor Cheuk Tse and the directors of the Hawaii Chinese Physical Culture Association.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 15, 2003)

Interesting interview, but to me it begs the question:  how many of us are Ed Parker?  

Cthulhu


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Interesting interview, but to me it begs the question:  how many of us are Ed Parker?
> 
> Cthulhu *



There are a whole lot of people in MT that are from Ed Parkers lineage.

What it does, is directly dispute what many people in here has been stating to be "legitimate' and what is not and it rehashes the credibility issue of receiving certification from an "Outside Source."

It may be in other parts of the world that they frown on this. But the martial arts have been in America for a long time, so now they are American and this has been done in America.

Just as a citizen comes from one country. They become citizens in another country and live by the standards of their new country.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

Not just America but in many others as well.  To show some pride in lineage is fine but lineage does not make a student good or bad.  A student can have great lineage and fine instructors and not be very good.  The reverse can also be said to a degree.  The bottom line is ability.  

It doesn't matter what an intructor can do, it only matters what the instructor can teach the student to do.  

Yiliquan1 if I'm a maytr then its because I was jumped out of the starting gate.  If I'm a saint its because I have done my best to be courteous.  A foreign concept to some here.  I believe you even admitted that I was e-mugged.  All because of a word.  I founded ZDW plain and simple.  It's small, but it works and has some fine people in it.  Those with more experience than I call me Soke which to them and me simply means founder.  There is no arrogance there, nor was any intended.  But some folks have lost their minds over it and have ranted about it for a week now, you included.  Doesn't mean a thing and doesn't change a thing.  

What I have, I have earned.  Your acceptance or disapproval of this is inmaterial.  You along with your buddies have leveled quite a few inuendos and alligations at me.  So prove them.  

Gary, the fact that some of my comments went over your head does not invalidate them.  I can not be blamed for your limitations.  Same thing goes for you and ryushikan, prove I do not have the credentials that I do.  Prove that I have not had the real-world occasions to use them.  Prove that my techniques and tactics do not work and that I am a bad instructor.  

The burden is on you as you have made the allegations.

But above all...have a nice day


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## Cthulhu (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *There are a whole lot of people in MT that are from Ed Parkers lineage.
> 
> What it does, is directly dispute what many people in here has been stating to be "legitimate' and what is not and it rehashes the credibility issue of receiving certification from an "Outside Source."
> ...



That wasn't the point.  The point was, how many are of Ed Parker's caliber?  Or Bruce Lee's?  Any old fool can go off and start there own system, though it doesn't mean they _should_.  

Cthulhu


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *   Not just America but in many others as well.  To show some pride in lineage is fine but lineage does not make a student good or bad.  A student can have great lineage and fine instructors and not be very good.  The reverse can also be said to a degree.  The bottom line is ability.
> 
> 
> ...


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *That wasn't the point.  The point was, how many are of Ed Parker's caliber?  Or Bruce Lee's?  Any old fool can go off and start there own system, though it doesn't mean they should.
> 
> Cthulhu *




Some people think they are on the same level as them I guess.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

.


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## GaryM (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> [
> 
> Gary, the fact that some of my comments went over your head does not invalidate them.  I can not be blamed for your limitations.  Same thing goes for you and ryushikan, prove I do not have the credentials that I do. [/B]


 I just channeled Baktoou, one of the Great Ascended masters of Atlantis and he told me that you can't answer RyuShiKan's questions satisfactorally. Can you prove me wrong?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *I just channeled Baktoou, one of the Great Ascended masters of Atlantis and he told me that you can't answer RyuShiKan's questions satisfactorally. Can you prove me wrong? *




Gary, 

Baktoou speaks to you too?!


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

> So you teach things you cant actually do yourself then..



You keep missing out on all the good stuff don't you, keeps going right over the ole melon.  Interesting that you can't understand this very basic principle of instruction.  

I will attempt to educate you on this.  Listen carefully you 'might' learn something.  It is not your job to show a student all the wonderful things you can do.  It is your job to show a student what they are capable of doing with what you teach them in regard to their body style, strength, height, weight etc.  If a student cannot perform something that you can do to whatever factor it is your responsibility to show them something that works that they can do.  If you don't do this you are not much of an instructor and are probably in it for the money not the student.

I have a hard time believing this very basic, simple concept of instruction escaped your grasp.



> Their definition is wrong.



Could be, but it's used worldwide by alot of people.  I don't think your opinion is going to change things much...do you?



> I know people with more experience and they would call you a bloody joke.



Perhaps..perhaps not.  I know alot of Grandmasters with more experience than the two of us together and they presented my and/or honor me with it.  Bottom line...opinions vary.

Oh no, now he's attacking my Ph.D.  Guess you have to hop over to that since you can't back up your ranting and raving.  Here it is simply put.  You mouthed off 10 times between my 2nd and 3rd post.  You did not give my a fair opportunity to respond to even your first post.  You tried and convicted me without me even having the fair opportunity to address anything.  So either you have PROOF of what you claim or you are a blowhard and liar.  

Hmmm, I wonder which is the more logical choice.  Since you KNOW I'm wrong and you KNEW it without me even saying one word to you....let's see the proof.

Show us ALL I didn't earn an 8th Dan.  Show us ALL I didn't earn a 5th Dan.  etc etc etc.

Burdens on you baby.  You don't need me, I was wrong t you before I said the first word to you.


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## chufeng (Feb 15, 2003)

Zhao,

Who awarded you the eighth dan? Just curious...
...and where did you earn your PhD? and what is it in?

My rank was awarded by Phillip Starr...
My Master's degree is in Health Science and was awarded by Texas Wesleyan University...

There...I share...you share...
I didn't slap you, kick you, mug you, insult you, or anything...
Just two simple questions...

Thanks in advance for your answers.

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

chufeng,

Alright, you asked fair questions without trying to rip my head off.  Thanks.

Brad Barnett.  In the 'Half hard/Half soft' style of Pangai-noon with just 3 basic Kata.  With the circle blocks and straight blocks.  With three basic kicks.  Sanchin is still my favorite with the thumb strikes and spearhands.  In addition, I have received much training in Chin Na though I hold no 'recognition' for it.  I am familar with finger, wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck, waist and leg Chin Na as well as muscle grabbing and cavity press.  I did not get into the yin/yang and the meridian portion to heavily as it was just not my thing.  

Conditioning was done with exercises such as arm rubbing and arm pounding [both sides and top of forearm] with blocks and strikes [hammerfist].  We kicked each other on the sides of the leg as well as use the poles.  We stood in Sanchin 'forever' while the instructor tested us with punches, strikes, kicks and boards.

I never imagined going this high nor was it my original intention.  the opportunity briefly presented itself so I took it.  Looking back it was a bad idea as this is not my primary focus, nor will it ever again be.  Call it temporary vanity if you like...it probably was.  I should never have taken that opportunity as it put me in a position that I will not fullfill because of my energy into ZDW.  It short changed those under me and let down those above me.  And for that I am truly sorry.  We all make mistakes and this was one of mine.  I figured [incorrectly] that it might lend validation to ZDW in some way.  Any jackoff can train for a few years and then hang out a shingle with the 'ultimate fighting art'.  I did not wish to go this route.  I train mostly LEO off duty and through alot of hard work have established a sound reputation within the community.  This is why I have sought out the people I have and asked for their guidance.  I mistakenly though [back at that time] that going for the 8th would lend 'more' credibility to ZDW.  I now know that paper is not who I am and it didn't matter.  We all have to live with our mistakes and if I could do it over I would.  But I can't.

The Ph.D. was conferred on me by a royal Saudia Arabian prince through the college of criminology in that country and is registered in the State of Delaware.  I can't tell you his name off hand as it is long and although I speak some Arabic I am not fluent...yet.  Is it a Harvard degree...no.  Is it legite...yes.  I did not pay a dime for it.  It was confered on me because of my experience and background and the work I have done thus far here in the Academies, through the KYHA as State of Florida Representative and previous education.  Why the Arabs?  I have strong ties to Israel, Jordan, Saudi, Turkey and Iran.  Politics aside, the are fine people and MA's.  I also have family that is Arabic.  It is in philosophy.


The USADR is the only American organization I have submitted the Pangai-noon to.  Dr. Mihails Pupinsh of the International Combat Martial Arts Union International has also recognized it in Europe.  KYHA recognizes my 5th alone as I never submitted Pangai-noon to them.  The 5th is recorded at Dong Koo Yudo Kwan.

As far as Soke, do you think my intention was to barge in here and insult people with it?  Do you think my intention was to piss people off.  I can assure you I didn't wake up that morning and say 'hmmm, I'm going to go piss people off on some web site today'.  The bulk of my experience has been military, executive protection and LEO [corrections].  It has been hands on.  I have spent VERY little time in a dojo, in a Gi, doing kata.  Yes I have done it...but the majority of training was how to take down crack heads that felt no pain.  [I will not comment on my military service because I CAN'T].  So when I decided to 'officially' name my system and teach under that name I decided to get back into a semi-martial arts feel so to speak.  Instead of BDU's we wore Gis.  And I decided to look around for an organization to view my training and help me flesh out the ideas I had for ZDW.  I found two.  Men with twice the years that I have from multiple countries use the title Soke, right or wrong.  I didn't have the first clue what it meant.  It was explained to me that it simply meant founder.  Sounded simple enough to me.  

I do have an extensive background in some areas [not a boast, thats just the way my life ended up].  So they addressed me as 'grandmaster'.  Looks good on the ole website but I honestly don't use it except for MA coorospondence.  I don't use Ph.D. either.  It is not who I am.  My student's address my as David and they do NOT bow to me.  It is against my beliefs and I just don't need it.  So to me, Soke means founder becuase that is what I was taught.  If it is wrong and means something different in Japan then so be it.  I've been wrong before and I'm sure it will happen again.  I don't get hung up on it.  I don't even wear my BB except for testing students and the occasional photo or seminar...and that's iffy.  Paper and cloth don't make me who I am.

That is my life, slam me as you all see fit.

I'm actually a fairly decent guy if you ever gave me half a chance.

Take care.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *You keep missing out on all the good stuff don't you, keeps going right over the ole melon.  Interesting that you can't understand this very basic principle of instruction.
> 
> I will attempt to educate you on this.  Listen carefully you 'might' learn something.  It is not your job to show a student all the wonderful things you can do.  It is your job to show a student what they are capable of doing with what you teach them in regard to their body style, strength, height, weight etc.  If a student cannot perform something that you can do to whatever factor it is your responsibility to show them something that works that they can do.  If you don't do this you are not much of an instructor and are probably in it for the money not the student. *



Spoken like a true Internet Warrior. How can you teach a path you have never been on. Well I may not be a Soke-doke like you but I can do the things I teach. 
Actually I have been thinking of teaching brain surgerymind you I cant actually do it but I guess that doesnt really matter.




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Oh no, now he's attacking my Ph.D.  Guess you have to hop over to that since you can't back up your ranting and raving. *



*I* am not the one who has to supply the credentials you claim. 




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * Here it is simply put.  You mouthed off 10 times between my 2nd and 3rd post.  You did not give my a fair opportunity to respond to even your first post.  You tried and convicted me without me even having the fair opportunity to address anything.  So either you have PROOF of what you claim or you are a blowhard and liar. *



More excuses.


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## chufeng (Feb 15, 2003)

Thank you...

That wasn't so hard was it?
Disregard my post on another thread asking for the same information...

Slam you?
That was never my intent...you were just so secretive that RED flags went up...
...as I posted in one of the other threads...our organization has had to "convince" certain schools to NOT use our name...why? Because the head instructor was NOT certified to teach and had no school/club license...

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

As I said in the other thread, you are welcome....and thank you for the fair shake.  :asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *The Ph.D. was conferred on me by a royal Saudia Arabian prince through the college of criminology in that country and is registered in the State of Delaware.  *



Conferred..you mean like an "Honorary" degree that you didnt actually have to write a thesis or attend classes for.


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## chufeng (Feb 15, 2003)

Zhao,



> The Ph.D. was conferred on me by a royal Saudia Arabian prince through the college of criminology in that country and is registered in the State of Delaware. I can't tell you his name off hand as it is long and although I speak some Arabic I am not fluent...yet. Is it a Harvard degree...no. Is it legite...yes. I did not pay a dime for it. It was confered on me because of my experience and background and the work I have done thus far here in the Academies, through the KYHA as State of Florida Representative and previous education. Why the Arabs? I have strong ties to Israel, Jordan, Saudi, Turkey and Iran. Politics aside, the are fine people and MA's. I also have family that is Arabic. It is in philosophy.



What you have is an "Honorary PhD in Philosophy..."
Nothing wrong with that...but you should be careful how you present it to the public. If you did not complete a university PhD program, here, or elsewhere, you did not receive a PhD...one of the requirements for a PhD is a formal dissertation on something you researched...usually they are published...

Not a slam...just some advice...when you present credentials, make sure you do it in such a way so as not to draw fire (I think you are familiar with drawing fire:wink:
Honorary degrees are granted for experience (like yours) and they should be presented as such...they are conferred as a recognition for your real world experiences (which usually are more legitimate than book learning)...

Thanks again for the information.

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng (Feb 15, 2003)

Zhao,



> The bulk of my experience has been military, executive protection and LEO [corrections]. It has been hands on. I have spent VERY little time in a dojo, in a Gi, doing kata. Yes I have done it...but the majority of training was how to take down crack heads that felt no pain. [I will not comment on my military service because I CAN'T].



I have 22 years in the military...I know a number of people who can't talk about what they do or what they did...I don't expect you to put that kind of information on the internet...and the less you say about it the better...

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

Chufeng,

What I have are three separate certificates with the royal seals etc.  None of them say 'honorary' but then, I don't know if they would.  I do not use the 'title' except for limited coorospondence.  For example, here at work I don't sign a report Deputy XXX YYY Ph.D.

For the limited corrospondence that I do use it [MA] the only way I know how to use it is Ph.D.  I feel that I have earned them from experience and if they are [and they probably are] honorary I know of no other way to use the initials.  

Are they not presented the same either way at the end of a signature?  If there is a different way then please show me.

Appreciate it.


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## chufeng (Feb 15, 2003)

Zhao,



> Men with twice the years that I have from multiple countries use the title Soke, right or wrong. I didn't have the first clue what it meant. It was explained to me that it simply meant founder. Sounded simple enough to me.



Maybe you should reconsider the title...
You admit you didn't know what it meant...
RyuShiKan, although a bit harsh, has provided you and everyone here with an excellent history of that term...
No harm, no foul if you change that title to something that is more in line with what you actually did..."create/found" a system.

My teacher went out on a limb when he founded YiLiQuan...
He was truly a Soke in the real sense of the word because Master Chen Wing Chou bequeathed the system of BaiXingQuan to Sifu in his Last Will and Testament...but Sifu saw that the WAY BaiXing was taught was very inefficient and he streamlined the teaching method...he founded YiLiQuan in 1982...he MADE all of his BaiXing seniors conform to the new system...he gave them a year to get the revised information straight...he held intensive seminars to help them do that.
Does Sifu use the term Soke? No...never did...(mostly because it is a Chinese system...but he never used the Chinese equivalent, either)...

He never referred to himself, publicly, as anything other than Pete (or Phillip) Starr...we students always referred to him as Sifu (teacher)...

Think about it...if ego is not an issue with you, then save yourself a lot of hassles and use the appropriate terms to describe yourself...Back in 1990. I was offered a Master of Martial Arts certificate from ??? organziation simply because I had been training for ten years...I said No Thank You! My license to teach comes from my teacher...not some self appointed council...

Thanks again for your post...and I hope this post helps you.

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

chufeng,

I lost me ego about twenty years ago and haven't been able to locate it since  

I don't have a problem using 'founder' and even changing it on my site.  I don't use it in person so that's not even an issue.

As far as Ryushikan, I know your friends but he was not 'a bit harsh', he was an A-hole and is still being one to this very hour [my apologies to the moderator for being blunt].  He bum rushed me with his bull-in-the-china-shop routine.  Do you think if he had tried the polite approach and just welcomed me in and got to know me and offered his opinion/advice in a professional manner that things might have gone different?

I'm not fond of him but I bear no ill will against him.  Doesn't matter though, he'll continue on as he has been despite anything I do or say.  Its a shame to because he seems to have some good knowledge on somethings and that is my reason for being here to begin with.  I don't know everything.  But I do know somethings and am willing to share them as well.

But he's not having any.

So I appreciate your civility and look forward to other issues with you.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Zhao,
> 
> 
> ...



As I said in a few posts before..why not just use the English word Founder instead of misusing a foreign word. Nobody could have any beef with that since you are the "founder".


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> As far as Ryushikan, I know your friends but he was not 'a bit harsh', he was an A-hole and is still being one to this very hour [my apologies to the moderator for being blunt].  He bum rushed me with his bull-in-the-china-shop routine.  Do you think if he had tried the polite approach and just welcomed me in and got to know me and offered his opinion/advice in a professional manner that things might have gone different?
> *



You are not the first person that I have questioned about this kind of thing.
I had dealings with another Soke that was making claims to certain ranks and so on from dojo in Okinawa and Japan. He made the mistake of claiming to have trained at my friends dojo and claimed to have gotten dan rank as well.
I quick call to my friend and he was proven to be a liar not only on that issue but on many others. 

As for my harshness I have lost my patience with people claiming various things over the Internet. Basically 
At the top of the list are foreigners that use/misuse the title Soke. 
Second is people that claim one or more, especially more, extremely high dan ranks.
Third is people that claim one or more, especially more, extremely high dan ranks from Okinawan based styles when the people that have trained daily in the Honbu for decades havent reached the rank these folks claim. Things like that just dont add up.
Fourth are people selling rank over the Internet for reasons I have stated?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)




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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

It is never correct to lose patience with someone you don't know.  This other person is not a reflection of me.  You would have known this had you simply welcomed me in and gotten to know me.  

I have already changed my site to 'founder'.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> 
> I have already changed my site to 'founder'. *




Kool


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## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *I mistakenly though [back at that time] that going for the 8th would lend 'more' credibility to ZDW.  I now know that paper is not who I am and it didn't matter.  We all have to live with our mistakes and if I could do it over I would.  But I can't.*



Well, one step toward avoiding having to deal repeatedly with rank you don't care about is to cease publishing it for the world to see...



> *The USADR is the only American organization I have submitted the Pangai-noon to.  Dr. Mihails Pupinsh of the International Combat Martial Arts Union International has also recognized it in Europe.  KYHA recognizes my 5th alone as I never submitted Pangai-noon to them.  The 5th is recorded at Dong Koo Yudo Kwan.*



Are there no organizations for Pangainoon nor Shuri-te that you could belong to and validate your rank with?  It would seem a far more consistent thing to do, belonging to an organization for the particular art you study as opposed to going to other organizations with nothing to do with the art you studied...



> *The bulk of my experience has been military, executive protection and LEO [corrections].  It has been hands on.  I have spent VERY little time in a dojo, in a Gi, doing kata.  Yes I have done it...but the majority of training was how to take down crack heads that felt no pain.  [I will not comment on my military service because I CAN'T].*



So you have a 5th dan and an 8th dan, both granted with "VERY little time in a dojo, in a Gi, doing kata."  Now you are also trying to say that your Air Force time (I remember you referred to an Air Force base in a post a bit back, so I am guessing you were in the Air Force - feel free to correct me) has some bearing on your martial arts skills.  This lends additional red flags, since very little time is spent training on HTH skills in the military - we have rifles, grenade launchers, machine guns, and artillery to take care of the bad guy long before HTH becomes an issue.  It is yet another modern myth in the martial arts community that military service equates to advanced HTH training.  It just doesn't exist.  And if your military service is of such high security classification, why did you bring it up in the first place?  I have never discussed any of the particulars of my service...  RyuShiKan, who I consider a very close and dear friend, even had elements of my military history confused, simply because I have never discussed my background to any great degree (I have cool "Army Buddy" stories, but that is as far as I usually go).

You are hinging on the "e-mugging" you received after posting here.  You continue to hinge on how RyuShiKan hit you 10 times before you were able to reply.  Now, after 80+ posts of your own, you are only now beginning to answer some of the questions posed to you by RyuShiKan and others...  

Whatever.  If I had any more strength left after Chufeng kicking my *** this morning, I'd type more.  But I am done with this silliness.  Until I see what you have to offer, I am simply filing "David Shulz" martial arts in a back drawer labeled "X-files."  You could have posted your training details, but you have tapdanced around and away from such disclosure.  You have been shown that the terms you use lead others to view what you do in a questionable light, but rather than acquiesce or simply acknowledge that they may be right, you paint yourself as a victim of internet impoliteness.

Whatever.  I'm going to look around other threads and unsubscribe from this one.  Somebody tell me if ZDW ever comes clean.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Feb 15, 2003)

A bit off of subject here, but there is a marketing benefit to a high
rank.  To those with little, or no previous martial art training.


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 16, 2003)

ZDW,
"Are you talk'in to me?"

I don't know squat!!!!

If you mean hiding behind military secrets, you're right.
If you mean claiming ranks that I don't have, you're right.
And if you mean getting a Phd from the University of Looserville, then you're correct there too.

Your not old enough to have an 8th dan in Okinawan karate both in terms of age or years training, which in your case wasn't much by your own account. 
Be the founder of your own system by all means, but don't think that puts you in any position other than the hundreds of others who couldn't go the distance as a student, and felt it was time they became a leader.

I've read nothing you have had to say that would make me think you are anything other than what I said in my last post, a Kuchi Bushi. You don't have to prove anything to me. I already recognise you for what you are.

Mike.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *That wasn't the point.  The point was, how many are of Ed Parker's caliber?  Or Bruce Lee's?  Any old fool can go off and start there own system, though it doesn't mean they should.
> 
> Cthulhu *



OK, that was your point. But my point was as stated.

And any old fool can go on and start there own system, though it dosen't mean they should, it also dosen't mean they shouldn't.

If someone makes significant enough changes in what they have learned, should it carry the original name?

If they used the original name then the "purist" of the original art will say that you are no longer the original art.

Really, you are damned and damned if you don't.

It dosen't matter what the world thinks, theres always going to be someone out there whining about something I just did. I'm not referring to you Cthulhu, you've been rational, I'm talking about those that thiink they should be the worlds authourity on martial arts, which is what they imply when they tell people of other systems that they are wrong.

What I practice and teach does not represent any single art and deserves its own name and Kempo and Jujitsu is just the simplest and most direct explanation of what I do.

Also Kempo and Jujitsu does not imply a style nor does it imply that they are are affiliated with anybodys elses style. It couldn't be anymore generic. My use of the word Atemi is to make it not to be considered related to one of the other Kempo Jujitsus out there.


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## GaryM (Feb 16, 2003)

I would like to address the original question that started this thread. This is just my opinion and how I see things in this reguard. I always understood a blackbelt to be a teaching certificate. It is supposed to mean that you are proficient in a certain art and have the ability to teach that art up to that level. A dan ranking I understood to mean the same thing. My instructor is good friends with one of the local TKD org's. here in Ut. and for a while they were trading teaching each other a Kata. (fishing buddies too). At one time Mr. Hanna presented Sammy with a blackbelt certificate in his organization. There was no cerimony or witnesses and although it doesn't say so it was understood by each of them that it was 'honorable'. Sammy doesn't use it for credibility (never mentions it), and would never profess to be able to teach TKD. Sammy's older brother trained in Hapikido back in the day and was the one who first introduced him to the martial arts and you might say was his first instructor. A few years back Sammy presented him with a blackbelt in martial arts from his school, Oquirrha Mountain Kenpo Karate. Notice I said 'blackbelt in martial arts' , not in Kenpo. He cannot teach Kenpo and would not claim to be able to. But he can teach martial arts, if you take that to mean how to fight.  I feel that to award someone a blackbelt in a system you would have to be from that system. How else could you evaluate the knowledge that the practicioner had in that art? However what happens when a martial arts teacher (whatever his art or system may be) is no longer affiliated with his instructor or organization? If he/she is activly teaching, unless there is a way for the teacher to be promoted the students can never rise above the rank that thier teacher holds. For this I feel that the ATAMA organization has the best solution. They recognise teaching ability and promote based on this.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *I would like to address the original question that started this thread. This is just my opinion and how I see things in this reguard. I always understood a blackbelt to be a teaching certificate. It is supposed to mean that you are proficient in a certain art and have the ability to teach that art up to that level. A dan ranking I understood to mean the same thing. My instructor is good friends with one of the local TKD org's. here in Ut. and for a while they were trading teaching each other a Kata. (fishing buddies too). At one time Mr. Hanna presented Sammy with a blackbelt certificate in his organization. There was no cerimony or witnesses and although it doesn't say so it was understood by each of them that it was 'honorable'. Sammy doesn't use it for credibility (never mentions it), and would never profess to be able to teach TKD. Sammy's older brother trained in Hapikido back in the day and was the one who first introduced him to the martial arts and you might say was his first instructor. A few years back Sammy presented him with a blackbelt in martial arts from his school, Oquirrha Mountain Kenpo Karate. Notice I said 'blackbelt in martial arts' , not in Kenpo. He cannot teach Kenpo and would not claim to be able to. But he can teach martial arts, if you take that to mean how to fight.  I feel that to award someone a blackbelt in a system you would have to be from that system. How else could you evaluate the knowledge that the practicioner had in that art? However what happens when a martial arts teacher (whatever his art or system may be) is no longer affiliated with his instructor or organization? If he/she is activly teaching, unless there is a way for the teacher to be promoted the students can never rise above the rank that thier teacher holds. For this I feel that the ATAMA organization has the best solution. They recognise teaching ability and promote based on this. *



I checked it out and it is a definate move in the right direction. What it is lacking is what they can't help. It is based on being able to judge those by which they have members who can do the judging. 

The number of actual styles represented is limited thus leaving membership in ATAMA limited to advancement only if your style is represented.

There are other organizations and organizations in the works that addresses this by offering the experienced martial artist a chance to learn the core of the organizations system and test within that system along with guidance in the future.


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## GaryM (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> [B
> 
> The number of actual styles represented is limited thus leaving membership in ATAMA limited to advancement only if your style is represented.
> ...


 No, not true. Being accepted to the organization takes a bit because they feel that by recognizing someone of questionable abilities or credentials or character would reflect negativly on all. However promotion within is based on activly teaching, learning, and the rank of your students. I admit that this could be abused and a member could start to be a 'belt factory' in order to quickly gain high rank, however every effort is made to verify the 'character' of the applicant for promotion and the guidelines for said promotion tend to be self policeing as much as possible. Nothing is perfect of course. I went to one of thier seminars a few years back and there were about 10 different systems there teaching, everything from TKD and Kempo to BJJ and Taijjquan (sp?) I read your 'resume' and this may be a very good route for you. Since this is a teaching org. you better have a real cirriculm for your school, with standards and requirments for grade spelled out. Being able to 'kick a**' and teach people how to fight won't be quite enough. Your professionalism, chracter and attitude, as well as the attitude and abilities of you students will have as much bearing on your acceptance as your knowledge and abilities do.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *No, not true. Being accepted to the organization takes a bit because they feel that by recognizing someone of questionable abilities or credentials or character would reflect negativly on all. However promotion within is based on activly teaching, learning, and the rank of your students. I admit that this could be abused and a member could start to be a 'belt factory' in order to quickly gain high rank, however every effort is made to verify the 'character' of the applicant for promotion and the guidelines for said promotion tend to be self policeing as much as possible. Nothing is perfect of course. I went to one of thier seminars a few years back and there were about 10 different systems there teaching, everything from TKD and Kempo to BJJ and Taijjquan (sp?) I read your 'resume' and this may be a very good route for you. Since this is a teaching org. you better have a real cirriculm for your school, with standards and requirments for grade spelled out. Being able to 'kick a**' and teach people how to fight won't be quite enough. Your professionalism, chracter and attitude, as well as the attitude and abilities of you students will have as much bearing on your acceptance as your knowledge and abilities do. *




I see what your talking about now. I did bookmark that site. I may of misunderstood what I was reading. I do have a curriculum which is nearly completely documeted for my manual and the same goes with the videos that I'm working on. Its a medium for defining evrything that I do. Also it is my goal that all of my instructors will recognize my system.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> Your logic works like this:
> A:I claim I have $100,000 in my pocket..........prove I don't.
> ...



Bravo!  The one who makes the claim, has the burden of proof.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *It is never correct to lose patience with someone you don't know.  This other person is not a reflection of me.  You would have known this had you simply welcomed me in and gotten to know me.
> 
> I have already changed my site to 'founder'. *



I read the thread. I lost my patience with this crap.

I am Her Majesty's OO7, with licence to kill. 
I have a PHD in Neural science, Astronomy, Military strategy, conferred to me by a Bavarian Prince, from an internationally known prestigious institute.
I served in the Gulf War, Somalia, covert operations all over South America, Middle East, Bosnia.  My security clearance is Code Omega, authorized by the Directorate of Operation personally.
Everybody calls me Soke. I am the founder of the top secret DeltaOmegaSpeztnazMaga covert operation martial art.

By the way, due to my Top Secret Security Clearance status, I am not allowed to talk about anything in specific or in details.

Now you prove me wrong.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *Bravo!  The one who makes the claim, has the burden of proof. *



I don't blame him for not wanting everyone to rip apart what he has. I put myself out there for the world to see.

But out of all of you out there that stuck your noses in, only 2 besides me were bold enough to put their experience out there to be scrutinized. 

Granted some have sites that we can refer too, but the rest of you out there. We are being coldcocked by who knows who.!??


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *ZDW,
> 
> Be the founder of your own system by all means, but don't think that puts you in any position other than the hundreds of others who couldn't go the distance as a student, and felt it was time they became a leader.
> ...



Thats harsh, there are many reasons why people don't train with their instructors and I don't want to type the same stuff in every thread, but if you go to the thread " how long before you can / should teach" you will see why I quit training with my brother-in-law.

Also we are still friends and we talk at great lenth. Don't take this wrong, but when I read your posts, for some reason I picture him.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Thats harsh, there are many reasons why people don't train with their instructors and I don't want to type the same stuff in every thread, but if you go to the thread " how long before you can / should teach" you will see why I quit training with my brother-in-law.
> 
> Also we are still friends and we talk at great lenth. Don't take this wrong, but when I read your posts, for some reason I picture him. *




There is a big difference between how long until you teach & how long until you make up your own style.

Any idiot can make up his/her own style..........as can be seen all over the Internet.
That doesnt mean it will be as good as other systems nor does it mean that person has the skill and experience to make up their own system.

I have yet to see a new made up system that wasnt a hodge-podge collection of poorly executed techniques from other systems.
Some may argue the point that people like Ueshiba made up their own system.
What people fail to see is he tested is art by going around and challenging other dojo.
Ueshiba in his prime was about 5 nothing and 230lbs of muscle.
Contrary to popular misconception he was of quite a different mind set when he was younger.  At the end of his life he was all love and peace but in his younger days was a real head knocker. 
Another person that comes to mind is Miyamoto Musashi. He fought and killed 60 people by the time he was 30 years old. When he was in his 60s he remarked that he was just lucky and had no idea about strategy or fightinghe basically spent his whole life developing his art..which I might add nobody has been able to replicate. 

So those of you that have invented your own style dont think that qualifies you to rub shoulders with the likes of the above two gentlemen..it sorely does not.
People talk of how their art has been tested by real life encountersBS!
To those people I say go into someones dojo and drop a challenge to kick all their asses.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *It is never correct to lose patience with someone you don't know. *



Thats nonsense.
I ride a bike here in Japan and people I dont know pull out in front of me or cut me off all the time. I lose patience with them because if they were to hit me I would be dead.






> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *  This other person is not a reflection of me. *



Oh but he is! He had the same excuses & rhetoric that you used, refused to produce certain documentation to back his claims of multiple high ranks, belongs to several Soke factories of dubious standing as do you, and even claims a PhD. .Id say you guys were two peas in a pod. 



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * You would have known this had you simply welcomed me in and gotten to know me.
> *



Any westerner that uses the title Soke coupled with high unverifiable dubious sounding dan ranks and a PhD. gets the same treatment by me for the mere fact that it is the first of many rad flags that will pop up.


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## GaryM (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Gary,
> 
> Baktoou speaks to you too?! *


 We seem to be on the same wavelength. Be afraid. BE VERY AFRAID!


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## sweeper (Feb 16, 2003)

out of curiosity, did Miyamoto Musashi ever teach his art to anyone? I mean did he found a school in the physical sence? Because if not, it's virtualy imposable to replicate a martial art given only litirature to go on, and musachi didn't even write much about it right?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 16, 2003)

Yes he did. I know he had at least one student that he wrote the Book of 5 Rings for. I have can't remember the students name though.


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## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I have yet to see a new made up system that wasnt a hodge-podge collection of poorly executed techniques from other systems.*



Ever?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Ever? *



Not yet.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

RyuShiKan, are you calling me an idiot? I for one haven't made any claim of better. Just there is a need for changes. Our martial ancestors new this and they did this as needed.

But the last century failed to have the same vision as their instructors before them had. Do you really think that I have a bunch of hodge podge poorly ececuted techniques techniques?

Well since you haven't figured it out. Its about being a fighter. I like Chi Sao the way I was taught. You may see it differant in a Wing Chun School though but the concept is the same. 

My technique isn't based on techniques. Techniques are used as drills to develop sensitivity. Don't think any of your Ryuwhatever it is you do would be included. Thats not the way I would fight.

The way I train is 65% standing up and 35% on the ground.Theres more standup because thats where you want to be, on your feet. My groundwork is based on BJJ but it would be impossible to add all these "whole systems" into one, it would be too much, pure overkill. You guys logic is off. On the ground you need to be able to impose your will, if you can't then your system is lacking. The same goes for the grappling arts, if they can't impose their will while on their feet, then their system is lacking.

Theres always room to improve.

None of my art is based on what you teach, I guarantee it.

"Use what is usefull, reject what is useless and add what is specifically my own!"  That quote was famous by my Sijo and thats all I've done.

I know now why most of the BJJ and JKD guys stay out of the "General Talk" area!


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## Master of Blades (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *I read the thread. I lost my patience with this crap.
> 
> I am Her Majesty's OO7, with licence to kill.
> ...



Sarcasm.....I love it :rofl:


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## pesilat (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Here is a question for your consideration...
> 
> An individual has earned Dan rank in one or more systems.  The individual comes in contact with the founder/Head Grandmaster etc of a style or system that differs from the ones he/she has attained Dan rank.  The Grandmaster of the differing style/system decides to honor this individual with Dan rank in his [the GM] style/system due to factors such as reputation, achievments, teaching ability, contributions to the Arts etc.
> ...




Personally, I think it depends on the situation. I have Dan rank in Doce Pares Eskrima/Eskrido from Grandmaster Cacoy Canete. When I was awarded it, I had never formally trained in the system. I did, however, have some limited background in traditional Doce Pares and had a solid background in a system called Sikal (a blend of elements from various systems of Filipino Kali and Indonesian Pentjak Silat).

Eskrido uses stick work from Doce Pares, locks from Aikido, and throws from Judo.

Sikal uses stick work from several FMA systems (including some Doce Pares, but the core of it is Lacoste/Inosanto blend), locking from FMA influenced by Small Circle Jujitsu, and throws from Silat.

According to GM Cacoy, I had all the elements required of a 1st Dan in Eskrido. The fact that those elements came from different sources was of little importance. I was able to do everything that GM Cacoy brought out. My flavor was a little different, but my grasp of the underlying concepts was solid.

Now, though, I've spent several years working with the Eskrido and have a 4th Dan. I still draw my locks from FMA and, now, Shen Chuan and my throws from Silat (and some from Shen Chuan). But I have more of the Eskrido flavor in my work now. And I feel that I'm on equal footing with any of the other 4th Dans in the organization.

If, however, my background hadn't included the elements of Eskrido, GM Cacoy wouldn't have given me the 1st Dan.

So, if you're talking about (for instance) a TKD guy who's never picked up a weapon being awarded a Dan ranking (or equivalent) in a weapon art, then I'd have to say that I think it's wrong.

But, in the end, it's the Grandmaster's system -- his house, his rules. Personally, I think something like this should, at best, be qualified as an "honorary" ranking (this is, in fact, what I considered my 1st Dan in Eskrido until I had put the time and effort in to feel that I had earned it).

However, as a general rule of thumb, I personally feel that someone should have some training in a system before they get any kind of rank in it.

Mike


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Personally, I think it depends on the situation.
> 
> According to GM Cacoy, I had all the elements required of a 1st Dan in Eskrido. The fact that those elements came from different sources was of little importance. I was able to do everything that GM Cacoy brought out. My flavor was a little different, but my grasp of the underlying concepts was solid.
> ...



They don't undertand anything that isn't done the traditional way.

They've ripped me apart for being honest when their ringleader and 98% of the other bigmouths won't even come out and lay their training history on the line for scrutiny. 

They've barely got me warmed up!


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *RyuShiKan, are you calling me an idiot?  *




Read the statement over a couple of times before you get all paranoid and see if I single you out.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

I read it several times before opening up. Leave out the titles and phds and its all been said to me. Mostly by coldcockers who come and go so fast you don't know who they are or where they're coming from.

All that aside I'm just being me   I'm real good at being a big mouth


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## Matt Stone (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *They don't undertand anything that isn't done the traditional way.
> 
> They've ripped me apart for being honest when their ringleader and 98% of the other bigmouths won't even come out and lay their training history on the line for scrutiny.
> ...



I'm baaack!

I wanted to reply to akja's comment above - 

Once you posted your training, with dates and such, I felt there was no longer a really valid issue in haranguing you any further.  You have a good amount of training under your belt, supervised by instructors.  The only thing I take any exception to is still the whole ranking from outside your system thing.  It has been shown here and elsewhere that a lot of the big names in the past had the same thing done to/for them.  Some of them used it to validate what they did, most appear not to have given a damn.

If you feel you have enough information to start teaching something, so be it.  You admitted that the real test of whether you know/knew what you are/were talking about is time, so in 25 years we'll see if anybody is still practicing what you taught them.

Yiliquan turns 21 this year.  We have made it that far, and we are still growing and evolving (though it is likely we are nearing the end of the evolution phase).  I hope your Kempo Jujutsu lasts as long.  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> All that aside I'm just being me   I'm real good at being a big mouth *




So we have noticed.


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## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Not yet. *




What about JKD?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What about JKD? *




I didn't include JKD for several reasosns.

1) JKD is not really that new.

2) JKD was founded by somone that had plenty of training prior to founding JKD.


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## pesilat (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I didn't include JKD for several reasosns.
> 
> 1) JKD is not really that new.
> ...



Actually, he didn't have a lot of training prior to founding JKD ... not by some standards, anyway. He was only 33 when he died.

He'd only had 7 years of formal Wing Chun training and a couple of years of personal exploration when he began teaching Jun Fan. It was only a few years later that Jun Fan evolved into "JKD". Though he did have a good amount of experience in Hong Kong street fights.

Mike


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Actually, he didn't have a lot of training prior to founding JKD ... not by some standards, anyway. He was only 33 when he died.*




I and most other people are very aware of Bruce Lee's training background. I wasn't as good as him after 14 years of training let alone 7.
Different time frames for different folks. 
That doesn't change the fact that he had very good training and was skilled not to mention JKD was founded on pretty sound concepts.
I don't consider Bruce Lee to be one of those people that just woke up one morning and decided to pull a new martial arts style out of his backside.

What I am talking about are the people that hop from one dojo to another then think they have "Got it", then declare themselves founder Grand Poobah Soke-doke.
99.99% of the time these guys technique is far substandard in one art. 

A few years back I met a guy that said he had made a new art that combined Karate and Aikido. (I forget the name he used)
I asked him why he did that, and he said because karate doesn't have any of the restraining and lock techniques like Aikido does.
Little did he know that there is a thing called tuite that is within karate which describes the very thing he was looking for in Aikido.

I had someone from New Zealand that wanted to study with me while they were in Tokyo.
They said there teacher had lived here for two years and mastered two styles of Karate while he was here. 
Needless to say the rad flag meter popped up and the BS dector was warming up too.
I asked which arts did he master..........they said Shotokan and Goju and said their teacher had founded a new style called Gokkan Ryu since it was half Goju and half Shotokan.
For those of you that don't speak Japanese Gokkan is the way you say rape in Japanese. 
I had a look at this guys kata and his technique...........not good. 

There is a guy at Yokosuka Naval Base, just down the road from your's truly, that is 23 years old and claims to be a Soke. He has supposedly mixed Aikido with TKD and JKD and some other stuff I had never heard of but sounded like a made up name. This guy not only sucked but sucked big time. 

There is another Japanese guy teaching on Yokosuka that claims to have developed his own style and claims it is sanctioned by the Emperor of Japan as well.
First off the Emperor of Japan has no training in martial arts.
Also, this guys style he claims to have "invented" is straight out of the box Wado Ryu with no changes.

These are the kind of guys I am talking about.


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## pesilat (Feb 17, 2003)

I know the kind of people you're talking about, Ryu. They disgust me the same as they disgust you.

But while Bruce was an exception, there were many people at the time who said the same things about him. _He's too young. He doesn't have a foundation. blah blah blah_

People like him are rare, but I'm sure there will be others like him. Consequently, it's really only possible to make judgments on an individual basis. Without having met someone and felt their energy, it's really difficult to accurately assess their ability. Never know, they may, in fact, be the next Bruce Lee -- as unlikely as that is 

As for "Gokkan" ... maybe the "founder" knew exactly what it meant and fully intended to "rape" his students (at least figuratively/financially).

But it's more likely that he was just an idiot. I heard about a guy here who combined boxing and jujitsu and called it "Bo-Jitsu." When I heard this, I said, "Does he realize that Bo-Jitsu is already the name of an art?" Of course he didn't.

Mike


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I'm baaack!
> 
> I wanted to reply to akja's comment above -
> ...



I pretty much guarantee you Kempo Jujitsu will be tauht 20 years from now. The question is whose. Thats part of the reason I had to put a name in front of it. As words Atemi to me, just fits well with Kempo and nerve training is something that is a part of Jujitsu. BJJ claims to be effective as self defense but in my opinion it is more effective as self defense if you add the neverve centers and small joints as targets. Thats the kind of adding I see. Nothing really new, just more like overlooked.

There are good reasons to blend. The right blend is what makes the differance. Most of my years are Karate. So now I have two Karate instructors. I am ready to teach and I do teach. The fact that I am practicing Karate is my way of going back to finish what I started.

And something I did not mention is that I have actually been looking for my last Kajukenbo instructor who is in the Bay Area somewhere, just hard to find. I do know that I will never train under my brother-in-law again.


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## GaryM (Feb 17, 2003)

AKJA, Just a thought. Not being antagonistic. Why not call what you teach "James Kovacick martial art" . That way you aren't claiming to re-invent the wheel, and you are truly seperating yourself from the 'traditional'. Of course you would still show the traditional roots in the training that you have but you would basicly be saying, "I'll teach you to fight like me". I don't see how anyone would have a problem with that. I tend to feel that if you really think that the traditional martial arts systems are outdated usung a name like Kempo Jujitsu even though it is 'generic' seems a bit hippocritical.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> * As words Atemi to me, just fits well with Kempo and nerve training is something that is a part of Jujitsu. BJJ claims to be effective as self defense but in my opinion it is more effective as self defense if you add the neverve centers and small joints as targets. Thats the kind of adding I see. Nothing really new, just more like overlooked.*



Calling your art Atemi Kenpo is like calling boxing "Punching Boxing".
Both Kenpo and Jujutsu have used Atemi long before you and I were born..........you haven't made anything "new" by adding or practicing Atemi in either art.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *There are good reasons to blend. The right blend is what makes the differance. Most of my years are Karate. So now I have two Karate instructors. I am ready to teach and I do teach. The fact that I am practicing Karate is my way of going back to finish what I started..*



Here again, Karate has Atemi as well as kansetsuwaza...........you still haven't added or blended anything new or different.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

The blend I was referring to was adding elements to BJJ groundgrappling from Trad. Jujitsu. BJJ is great for controlling and finishing while in those positions but theres a lot that is not addressed that could be used from a self defense perspective while in those same controlling positions. 

It is not new, just differant from the way it is taught. BJJ comes from japan originally but its changed and it is good and it is effective. I just think they spend too much time in positions that are vunerable. To learn those postions you do have practice that way. But when rolling or randori or whatever you want to call it, I feel you should learn ways that not everybody else is practicing. I didn't say knowbody is practicing that way, I said not practiced by the majority.

BJJ is all over the place now. When we were first exposed here they were one up on us. Now we've been exposed and the pressure is on them because everybody is practicing BJJ.

Thats what I mean of differant. There are no new techniques, just the way we practice them.

So is there a proper use of those 2 words together?


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## sweeper (Feb 18, 2003)

was his name (Musashi's student) Tero Magonojo?

Kinda wonder what happened to the line..


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> *was his name (Musashi's student) Tero Magonojo?
> 
> Kinda wonder what happened to the line.. *




I think it was Makanojo.....with a "k"....the line still exists.


The school still does demonstrations at the Kubudo Taikai every time.


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