# Why the order of the belt colors?



## IWishToLearn (Apr 15, 2007)

Anybody who was around when the colored system was instituted - why did Mr. Parker choose to put Purple after Orange instead of the generally accepted place between blue and brown? Just wanted to be different?


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## Doc (Apr 15, 2007)

> Anybody who was around when the colored system was instituted - why did Mr. Parker choose to put Purple after Orange instead of the generally accepted place between blue and brown? Just wanted to be different?



I would be careful with phrases like, generally accepted. Generally, accepted by whom? Many different interpretations of Kenpo have various belt orders, grading, and designations. There are even variations within lineages including Parker. Im sure all of them feel what they been taught or passed is generally accepted, and all are correct.

Your questions suggests, one day Parker sat down and said, This is the order of belts that Im going to use. Nothing could be further from the truth. Like everything else Parker did, it was a result of a process, evolution, deviation, and circumstances of the time.

In his native Hawaii, colored belts were in use in varying orders, all influenced by the Japanese ranking structures of judo and later jiu-jitsu prevalent in the islands, as much of Kenpo is today. Parkers rank structure is based on the original ju-do kyu/dan system that counts downward from 10 to 1, and then upward 1 to 10. This is the reason brown belt starts at 3rd Kyu and counts upward in rank, but down numerically to 1 Kyu, then 1st black or sho-dan counts upward from there. This is also, why philosophically earning a black belt is the beginning of learning and not a significant level. It simply means that you should now have a basic understanding and skill that allows you to now finally be taught the art. 

It should be noted that Parker abandoned all Asian influences in favor of an American Cultural Perspective. He only maintained the things that were necessary. The uniform was practical, the rank structure already in place, (although he dropped the Asian terminology in favor of all English), and later certain customs like salutes and bowing so it retained enough Asian Flavor to be effective as a sales tool. After all the American public wanted to learn, (at the time) Japanese Ju-do and Karate-do, and expected and embraced the culture deviations.

However, when originally coming to the mainland Parker initially abandoned all belt colors with the exception of white, brown, and black belt. The reasons for this were simple. The average time to make black in those days was about a year, as compared to the lengthy time in Qungfu circles of 3 to 4 years to black sash. Because of the relatively short time spent at any one level, Parker replaced the change of belts with tips or stripes on the white belt until brown and ultimately black as a matter of practicality.

Why did people make black so quickly? Because in the beginning the original Kenpo-Karate, (still practiced by many from that era), was fairly simplistic and straightforward, and was devoid of significant information and knowledge. Some still find this approach for strict self-defense a better model for most people. There is evidence to suggest they may be correct, but for business purposes, this method is sold and packaged differently in varying promotional packages.

When Parker made the transition to the Chinese influence, he was bombarded with significant knowledge and concepts to which he was previously not exposed, that necessitated a lengthening of the process. Later upon commercialization, different information was inserted to ease the teaching process, and additional information upon demand from the consumers.

Parker gradually filled in the blanks of his three belt rank structure, initially adding green, purple, and orange, in that order moving downward from black belt. Later blue was inserted between purple and green, and finally once again because of consumer demand, yellow was added last originally designed for women and children.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 15, 2007)

Interesting bit of history and perspective, Doc. Thanks.

It's been curious watching the changes over the years. I first learned kenpo under a model in which yellow did not exist, and the instructor -- tired of the confusion around the brown title/stripes -- went with 1st, 2nd, 3rd, black, indicated by 1 stripe, then two, then three. Made it easier (like private, corporal, seargant...you knew by looking who was senior on the floor).

A few years back, I even monkeyed with it. I wanted to include a pre-black belt level that would focus on combat handgunning and judo skills, and first attempted a 2nd degree green. Later, having added some of the TKD kicks and boxing to this non-rank, I went with the advanced beginner Korean version of our brown, and replaced the 2nd degree green with a red belt. It was a nice place to park people for a while to let their mind simmer with the rush of info they just blew through in white thru green, as well as to say "work the hell out of it, then forget it for awhile and think about something else". 

In learning and memory theory in psych, performance is improved by walking away form a thing after cramming, and getting a little break from it. Allowing some "creative distraction" time. So I used red for that pause before delving into the browns, thesis, etc.

Thought I was being original, then bumped into some Hawaiians that had been doing the same thing for several years. Idunno...maybe I heard about it elsewhere, but liked how it felt to steal the idea unconsciously and take credit for it. :idunno: 

There is a tendency to view kenpo as having emerged from the womb fully formed. I'm glad you interject to add perspective for the next generation.

Thanks,

Dr. Dave


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## IWishToLearn (Apr 15, 2007)

Doc said:


> I would be careful with phrases like, generally accepted. Generally, accepted by whom? Many different interpretations of Kenpo have various belt orders, grading, and designations. There are even variations within lineages including Parker. Im sure all of them feel what they been taught or passed is generally accepted, and all are correct.
> 
> Your questions suggests, one day Parker sat down and said, This is the order of belts that Im going to use. Nothing could be further from the truth. Like everything else Parker did, it was a result of a process, evolution, deviation, and circumstances of the time.
> 
> ...



Gah, thanks for pointing out the (what is now) obvious deficiency in specificity of my original question. Most japanese based/derived systems I'm familiar with place purple between green and brown - I was looking for an idea of how it developed into orange/purple/blue/green. You hit what I wanted and reminded me yet again specificity counts.  Thanks Doc


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## Doc (Apr 29, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Interesting bit of history and perspective, Doc. Thanks.
> 
> ... the instructor -- tired of the confusion around the brown title/stripes -- went with 1st, 2nd, 3rd,


We've done the same thing with the idea in mind of simply "Americanizing" the rank structure sans the "kyu" system. Therefore, the three degrees of brown count upwards 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, as it should in American ranking. Another distinction is there is only a SL-4 designation on the belt for all three grades. Black belt is the same. Students where no stripes whatsoever for any reason. My philosophy is, your rank should be obvious from your performance. Whatever you look like, is what you are in the real world. No matter what's around your waist, if you have no skills and look like a white belt by established standards - than that's what you are in reality. Even the traditional arts from where the rank structure comes has no stripes. The stripes are an American Commercial accouterment to create externally visible goals for Americans, over obvious performance and personal pride in accomplishment.


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## JamesB (May 1, 2007)

I missed this thread first time round. Thanks Doc, that was very interesting - I'd always assumed that (with the exception of white,brown,black) that the belts had been gradually introduced in the order they appear today.

I have a question though if you don't mind? The brown belt techniques that I'm familiar with have a very different feel from the orange-to-blue syllabus. I'd always assumed that 'brown' had been developed last of all, to support the 'motion' concept of kenpo. But I'm also seeing that 'brown' was there from the early days. Perhaps the brown-belt of the 50s/60s is very different from what you'd see today?


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## Doc (May 1, 2007)

JamesB said:


> I missed this thread first time round. Thanks Doc, that was very interesting - I'd always assumed that (with the exception of white,brown,black) that the belts had been gradually introduced in the order they appear today.
> 
> I have a question though if you don't mind? The brown belt techniques that I'm familiar with have a very different feel from the orange-to-blue syllabus. I'd always assumed that 'brown' had been developed last of all, to support the 'motion' concept of kenpo. But I'm also seeing that 'brown' was there from the early days. Perhaps the brown-belt of the 50s/60s is very different from what you'd see today?


Yes james, you're correct. Although the belts at various levels have been around and introduced at different times, the material they represent has always been in a state of flux predicated on when it was taught, who it was taught to, what the students reasons were for learning, their limitations, and Mr. Parker's own personal preferences he had for them.

When I started kenpo, a Black Belt took about a year or so to achieve. Before that most received it in less than a year. But it was a tough year, with the emphasis on very hard training for tough minded men. Techniques were few, but the applications were done over and over on each other with a tough sense of reality. You had to defend yourself in class and if you failed, it hurt. You bled. It left marks and bruises on a nightly basis. I'm not sure I would have survived had I met Parker much earlier because I was young and green, and coming from a Qung fu school where the emphasis was on 'forms perfection,' and proper posture and strict movements was the order of the day. Everything was about 'perfecting movement,' with very little attention given as to how you would actually use it. To that end, a 'Black Sash' there would take you a very long four or five years, compared to the other arts. But that was the Chinese way to make you prove yourself before they actually taught you something you could go out and use.

Kenpo had a reputation of being 'thugish and unrefined' in comparison with plenty of uncontrolled contact. Truth is, it was. Guys mixing up with gi's. The weak and squeemish would bale just watching a class. Women and children? Forget it. It was a tough man's activity for very tough men. You had your police and ex-military special forces, but there was also the bouncers, loan collectors, 'bikers,' and others from shady activities that needed to be capable of 'handling themselves.' 

Most men attracted to the training could already 'fight' when they came to Parker, but  Parker made them better fighters. Not like today where you have people with no street experience trying to learn it from a rather 'youthful' black belt, who also doesn't have any real street experiences. It's 'consumer friendly' because anything else would run the average person and their checkbook away. 

When Parker created the commercial system, he was accused by many of his own students and other masters of the time, as 'going Hollywood.' Many students broke away rather than learn the 'new weak material.' The truth is, he did. Parker was smart enough to know, that's were the money was. This is also why he compiled the longest list of celebrity students of probably anyone that ever taught the arts. 

But those same accusers ultimately tried to duplicate Parker's method of doing business. Parker's success however, was due more to the particular business model that he chose, than anything else. Ultimately everyone in the various lineages of self-defense arts attempted to duplicate that business model, with varying degrees of success.

You are correct also about the development of the material in a way. Brown  was created last but not the way you think. Under the original 32 technique charts, all of the written material and techniques ended at 'Green," and there were only three charts of material to cover the belts up to that point. There was no 'Blue" at this time. But, as Parker was going through his 'Chinese Kenpo Phase,' the techniques were developing and the beginning techniques were elongating. So the idea came about, (I don't know or remember who said it first) to take the 'Orange' techniques and chop off the endings and save them to be taught for 'Brown.' This is how the so-called 'extensions' were born, when in reality originally they were just techniques. 

But this too created a problem, because there still wasn't any real 'Brown material,' just 'extended orange.' They were called "Green/Orange Techniques." I still have one of those manuals. When Parker decided to drop the number of techniques down to 24 enroute to ultimately 16, it meant the extensions were now short as well by 16 for the next chart up.

So material was created specifically for 'Brown' and the extensions were moved upward, and '10 Yellow techniques' were created for women and children to allow them to promote before they got bored or discouraged. Later on in the seventies some of the 'newbies' helped 'flesh out' the extensions and added more and many of the 'two sets.' Many techniques changed, were created, or dropped over the years. And a good barometer to follow lineage inception is what, and the kind of techniques taught. Old school remembers techniques with no names. Still later there was one set of Yellow, that also changed over the years.

Parker was constantly adjusting and refining the business model material, as well as his own 'personal kenpo' yet to be generally revealed or written in an effort to expand, as well as give the consumers in the schools material they requested. He was tweeking the commercial system still when he passed away, in an effort to establish a consistent base of material for an expanion planned to capitalize on the publicity given the art by Larry Tatum's student, jeff speakman. Parker only owned two schools and only one of them was profitable. He was looking to change that. So the last written material he worked on was the commercial system, for his commercial students. No wonder everyone has a headache, and is different from everyone else.


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## Hand Sword (May 1, 2007)

Given all of that, would you say that the techniques look as they did back then, just with a different emphasis placed on them. Or, were most of them created along the way as well, following a commercial model?


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## Doc (May 1, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Given all of that, would you say that the techniques look as they did back then, just with a different emphasis placed on them. Or, were most of them created along the way as well, following a commercial model?



Once Mr. Parker made that decision to commercialize, they look pretty much the same as today. I have video from the sixties of Parker demonstrating all of the techniques that existed at the time up to green. You would recognize everyone of them with no problem sir.


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## Hand Sword (May 1, 2007)

Interesting. In the beginning, since BB took a short time, how many techniques were there in total, if you had to take a guess?


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## Doc (May 1, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Interesting. In the beginning, since BB took a short time, how many techniques were there in total, if you had to take a guess?



It wasn't so much the number of thechniques, which was small. Maybe as much as twenty standup. But there were many different variations for everything, that weren't written down. The actual "numbered technique" was only the beginning point to get everyone on the same page, than they took off from there. The written techniques weren't really written. they more like 3x5 cards with cliff notes.


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## Hand Sword (May 1, 2007)

:asian:

Thank you sir.

I get that. When I first started, we were taught kind of like that. Take one technique, and apply it in different situations. 

Were any of today's techniques one of those twenty? Or completely different?


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## Doc (May 1, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> :asian:
> 
> Thank you sir.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, a bunch. Like; Lone Kimono, Crossing Talon, Sleeper, Striking Serpants Head,  and even Leap of Death. Like I said, you're recognize most of them sir.


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## Hand Sword (May 1, 2007)

Sorry to keep at this, evolution is fascinating to me. One more question if you don't mind. Then I'm off to school. Do you know if any of them came from Professor Chow's side? Or did Mr. Parker come up with them himself? I know they kind of just did technique after technique. I was wondering if any of them translated over.


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## Doc (May 1, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Sorry to keep at this, evolution is fascinating to me. One more question if you don't mind. Then I'm off to school. Do you know if any of them came from Professor Chow's side? Or did Mr. Parker come up with them himself? I know they kind of just did technique after technique. I was wondering if any of them translated over.



I would guess that some did because they were reconizable as having come from Dan Zan Ryu Jiujitsu, which Parker learned from Chow. Parker switched to the Chinese when he came here, so that had to be a carry over from the Island training sir.


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## Carol (May 1, 2007)

Doc,  did a red belt fit anywhere in to the Kenpo system?

Some Kenpo schools award a red belt or red striped belt as an "instructor" rank. The actual rank where the belt was awarded varied but it was always at some level above 1st black.  I also see this practiced frowned upon (to put it politely) by other Kenpoists.

I was curious about this...especially where red seems to vary in significance.  Some systems denote red as being one of the colors to pass through on one's way to black, but red as an instructor rank seems to denote red being "higher" than black.

Is there a story behind the use of red sir?


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## LawDog (May 1, 2007)

Not trying to cut in on the American Kenpo Seniors forum but to me and my affiliates this is a sore subject.
In many of the Hawiian based Kenpo systems the color red, when used in Kenpo belting, was usually reserved for the most highly respected of black belt instructors.
Today many commercial school owners are inventing their own belt ranking system. Many Kenpo schools are now using a solid red belt for their Ikkyu level students. The black belt with a red stripe is now being used by many Kenpo schools as a junior black belt rank. As one school owner told me, these new belt's will motivate a student to attain rank. They will also help the student create a more positive image about himself(?). When I told him what the red really stood for his response to me was, I don't care, I will do what I want, I'm in business to make money.
Reality here, they are pushing the attainment of rank($) instead of ability.
Both here in the USA and over in Europe the meaning of the red on a Kenpo belt has lost it's meaning.

I had to get this off my chest some what.


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## JamesB (May 1, 2007)

Well I really don't know about Europe - all the kenpoists I've met on the 'mainland' have not been how you describe, and in here in England I don't know of a single commerical kenpo school (run as a business in other words), and certainly not one that parades red around on their belts anyway.

peace.


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## Doc (May 1, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Not trying to cut in on the American Kenpo Seniors forum but to me and my affiliates this is a sore subject... I had to get this off my chest some what.



Sir, please do cut.


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## JamesB (May 1, 2007)

Doc said:


> Kenpo had a reputation of being 'thugish and unrefined' in comparison with plenty of uncontrolled contact. Truth is, it was. Guys mixing up with gi's. The weak and squeemish would bale just watching a class. Women and children? Forget it. It was a tough man's activity for very tough men. You had your police and ex-military special forces, but there was also the bouncers, loan collectors, 'bikers,' and others from shady activities that needed to be capable of 'handling themselves.'


 
Mr Rose tells the exact same story about when he started teaching/expanding kenpo in England - he would say how he was described as a thug, that Kenpo wasn't a martial-art because it was just like street-fighting. Ain't that the whole point? lol!



Doc said:


> Not like today where you have people with no street experience trying to learn it from a rather 'youthful' black belt, who also doesn't have any real street experiences.


 
haha you know you are exactly describing me there but thats no problem, I'm doing my best to learn the material and teach it as best I can  But I also get alot of folks who walk in the door, and walk straight out again when they see us practising attacking-mace  WHAACKKK!!!



Doc said:


> When Parker decided to drop the number of techniques down to 24 enroute to ultimately 16, it meant the extensions were now short as well by 16 for the next chart up.
> 
> So material was created specifically for 'Brown' and the extensions were moved upward, and '10 Yellow techniques' were created for women and children to allow them to promote before they got bored or discouraged.


 
that helps to explain why some of the 'commercial' brown-techniques seem very good, but some make your eyes roll to the back of your head. But he did a good job with 'yellow', those techniques really rock! (well the PAMs and BAMs certainly make a difference anyway!)



Doc said:


> No wonder everyone has a headache, and is different from everyone else.


 
yup I've got a headache now just thinking about it! When I started posting here I had no clue how diverse techniques were between the various schools/lineages, I just couldn't figure out why it was so hard to discuss techniques, and its because everyone does them differently.!


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## Doc (May 1, 2007)

JamesB said:


> Mr Rose tells the exact same story about when he started teaching/expanding kenpo in England - he would say how he was described as a thug, that Kenpo wasn't a martial-art because it was just like street-fighting. Ain't that the whole point? lol!


Well yes because it wasn't Japanese in origin, (inspite of what some believe), so it didn't have the 'cultural refinement and rituals' that made it a "civilized" activity with a code of honor, pride, and later sportsmanship.' Parker inherited a down a dirty kick-*** martial art from Kwai Sun Chow, that eliminated everything that had nothing to do with street fighting self-defense. To the traditionalist, this was awful and violated every cultural code of ethics they had established for their martial art.


> haha you know you are exactly describing me there but thats no problem, I'm doing my best to learn the material and teach it as best I can  But I also get alot of folks who walk in the door, and walk straight out again when they see us practising attacking-mace  WHAACKKK!!!


But that's alright. I gave a speech to some of my non-gun carrying students recently, because we spend as much time on how to 'attack' each other as defend. Realistic attacks help students to evaluate their true self defense capabilities, as well as the effectiveness of the material being taught. 

'Good people' in society have to be taught 'how' to attack someone with the mentality of a 'street savy' predator. Good people don't have either side of the equation in their experience. So with the exception of my cops, all my students are professional doctors, lawyers, etc with no clue. 

This why the instructor is so important, (especially in the commercial system), and why his instructor must be street savy, to teach someone else how to be street conscious and survive. I have a whole bunch of guys, just like you, but they're learning because I'm teaching them the "street" where I not only grew up but continue to work. I'm teaching them how to attack, defend, AND the culture and mentality of street people who are very serious predators.


> that helps to explain why some of the 'commercial' brown-techniques seem very good, but some make your eyes roll to the back of your head. But he did a good job with 'yellow', those techniques really rock! (well the PAMs and BAMs certainly make a difference anyway!)


Well there are mnay who won't admit it, but I've always heard students from all over say, "Oh, I would never do that technique on the street. I'd get my butt kicked." So, I always ask, "Than why are you learning it?" The answer is always the same, "Because I need it to get promoted." This is one of many reasons why most of the commercial lineages are failing. The culture of the business breeds people who want belts instead of the real expereince. Unfortunately the "real" expereince is not user friendly for the casual. Here in Southern California I get questions about the "fighters" in Kenpo all the time. I always mention Bob Whites group because they bring a realism to their training that few do. Gotta keep in real folks.

The 'Yellow Techniques' have undergone the most significant revisions over the years because they are seen and taught more than any other, even though they were an afterthought to the system. Initially they were designed to be "easy" for there intended students, but ultimately expanded to everyone and that brought additional changes as well.


> yup I've got a headache now just thinking about it! When I started posting here I had no clue how diverse techniques were between the various schools/lineages, I just couldn't figure out why it was so hard to discuss techniques, and its because everyone does them differently.!


I take a lot of heat from people trying to lay common ground for discussions, but its not "us vs them." It's all of us trying to learn and get better, and we should not let semantics or pride keep us from what should be our ultimate goal. Not belts and rank, but competence.

Thanks James, always a pleasure until you 'cross the pond' and I see you again.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> I take a lot of heat from people trying to lay common ground for discussions, but its not "us vs them." It's all of us trying to learn and get better, and we should not let semantics or pride keep us from what should be our ultimate goal. Not belts and rank, but competence.


 

Perfectly said Sir! :asian:


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## kidswarrior (Jun 11, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Perfectly said Sir! :asian:


What *HS* said.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 11, 2007)

Doc,  
this may be a little off topic but refers back to Carol's question on the red belt.  I remember when I started studying the arts that stories always said that the RED BELT was a grandmaster who had killed another man in combat (sometimes for the right to wear that belt). Did you ever hear those stories back when you started.
Not saying they where true but just asking a off topic question


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## Doc (Jun 11, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> Doc,
> this may be a little off topic but refers back to Carol's question on the red belt.  I remember when I started studying the arts that stories always said that the RED BELT was a grandmaster who had killed another man in combat (sometimes for the right to wear that belt). Did you ever hear those stories back when you started.
> Not saying they where true but just asking a off topic question



Oh, are you trying to say I was around waaay back then?  OK I may have been around then, but I also know the stories are martial arts mythology. You know kinda like the one that says "Black Belts have to have their hands registered." 

In my experience the "red" belt was something some Korean Stylists used in place of brown belt. The Japanese Traditional "red belt" wasn't really red, but a combination of red and white to designate both ends of the spectrum, and was an honorary distinction awarded at 5th and beyond.

Keep in mind the basic rank/belt structure we see today came from the Japanese beginning with Jigoro Kano in Ju-do, and later Karate-do. Karete-do traditionally training was all based in kata, and not fighting, sport or otherwise. At one point they were both known as "players" in their respective "sports." "Judo players and Karate players" indicating the nature and basis of their arts of the time.

In modern times we have so many made up styles, and made up traditions these things have virtually lost their meaning and significance in the big picture. One of the reasons of many, my people don't wear any stripes at all. The stripes came about in the "business era" and didn't exist when I first started. No need unless you selling something to the public. We all know where each of us is, so it's unnecessary.

So much of what's seen today is about the business of the art, and not about the tradition sir.


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