# Moo Duk Kwan?



## mjd (Jul 24, 2006)

Some one turn the lights on in here, I must understand one thing before I die and move on to the after life.

What is this about Tang Soo Do being Moo Duk Kwan or not?, maybe I missed the boat, but are not all Tang Soo Do from the Moo Duk Kwan.

I understand that some Tang Soo Do orgs do not use the Moo Duk Kwan name, but so what, however remote they still came from the same founder Master Hwang Kee.

help me I'm sinking in sinking sand.


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## aerotd (Jul 25, 2006)

I am not totally sure since I am pretty new.  But, according to my study guides and a lot of the books I've found, there are differences.  I belong to the World Tang Soo Do Association and our hyungs are different than most Moo Duk Kwan books I have seen.  Our Grandmaster is Jae Chul Shin and I have been unable to find our beginning forms in any other books about Tang Soo Do.  We use Sae Kye Hyung Il Bu, E Bu, and Sam Bu.


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## Grenadier (Jul 26, 2006)

mjd said:
			
		

> What is this about Tang Soo Do being Moo Duk Kwan or not?, maybe I missed the boat, but are not all Tang Soo Do from the Moo Duk Kwan.
> 
> I understand that some Tang Soo Do orgs do not use the Moo Duk Kwan name, but so what, however remote they still came from the same founder Master Hwang Kee.


 
In a nutshell,

Tang Soo Do changed its name to Soo Bahk Do (the style taught by current Moo Duk Kwan).  

Not everyone in the Tang Soo Do family, though, followed this course, and Tang Soo Do continues to operate on its own.


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## Butch (Jul 26, 2006)

Tang Soo Do was around before the Moo Duk Kwan. The term Tang Soo Do was first used by GM Lee, Won Kuk, but most of the Tang Soo Do stylist, except for the Moo Duk Kwan, went with TaeKwonDo after 1957.

GM Shin has changed the hyungs somewhat after he left the Moo Duk Kwan that is the reason for the different look in the WTSDA.

Yes the USTSDMDKF has changed their name and also changed their hyungs so that they are no longer TSD but are now SooBahkDo.

TangSooDo is so ingrained in MDK that when someone talks about one they are talking about the other, but that is changing.

I hopes this helps.
Butch


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## rmclain (Jul 26, 2006)

Before 1965 or so, most strike/kick-type martial art schools called their art either Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, Kwon Bup or Kwon Soo Do (not a well known name).

All of the 5 major kwans in S. Korea following WWII used one of the above names:  1) Chang Moo Kwan, 2) Moo Duk Kwan, 3) Chung Do Kwan, 4) Song Moo Kwan, 5) Ji Do Kwan.

Some schools still linked to an old kwan will still use the "Tang Soo Do" name and not "Tae Kwon Do."  Though most people nowadays relate the "Tang Soo Do" name with the Moo Duk Kwan and Hwang Kee, this was not the case until the early 1960's.

So, if you see the name, "Tang Soo Do" somewhere, it doesn't necessarily mean a Moo Duk Kwan school.

R. McLain


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## mjd (Jul 29, 2006)

Very good info, I must say I am still don't understand, maybe I am looking at it differently. 

Master Hwang Kee was Moo Duk Kwan. 
Master Hwang Kee was the originator of Tang Soo Do.

I look at it like Moo Duk Kwan is Tang Soo Do family tree, even if we don't call ourselves Moo Duk Kwan, or we do different hyungs, or have different organizational connections to the Moo Duk kwan, we all came from the same source through some path, if we trace back our instructors, Masters, we will find at some point it ends up at Master Kwang Kee.

Moo Duk Kwan is a way of life, not a name or hyung, it is a style of training, the whole body concept and all that stuff, in this respect Tang Soo Do has not changed or broken from. The Spirit of Moo Duk Kwan continues to live in all Tang Soo Do artist.

Moo Duk Kwan has been defaced by politics and legalities for money, trade marks, and commercialism.

What a mess.


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## rmclain (Jul 29, 2006)

mjd said:
			
		

> Very good info, I must say I am still don't understand, maybe I am looking at it differently.
> 
> Master Hwang Kee was Moo Duk Kwan.
> Master Hwang Kee was the originator of Tang Soo Do.
> ...


 

There were 5 major schools of Tang Soo Do established following WWII.

1) Ji Do Kwan
2) Chung Do Kwan
3) Moo Duk Kwon
4) Song Moo Kwan
5) Chang Moo Kwan

All of these schools called their art "Tang Soo Do" back then.  

When the attempt to merge these major schools into one large organization came about, the Moo Duk Kwan went its own way and kept its name.  This is why students nowadays think Moo Duk Kwan is the only "Tang Soo Do," since all of those original school quit using the "Tang Soo Do" name and distinction.

While Hwang Kee was the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan, he was NOT the founder of Tang Soo Do.  "Tang Soo Do" was just a generic term used by many of the schools.  

R. McLain


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## Butch (Jul 30, 2006)

Tang Soo Do is the Korean translation for Kara Te Do an Okinawan term meaning The Way Of The Tang or China Hand. I think that it was first used by Lee, Won Kuk so you could say he founded Tang Soo Do. He was a 2nd Dan in ShotoKan and trained in Japan while going to school. After returning to Korea he open a school using the Korean translation to be more open to the Korean students.
Hope this helps,
Butch


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## mjd (Aug 2, 2006)

WMDK Org claims Hwang Kee was the fouder of MDK and TSD

Check out thier website history link below

http://worldmoodukkwan.com/history.html


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## mjd (Aug 2, 2006)

Sorry Retract that, WMDK only claims Hwang Kee founded MDK, not TSD.


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## tsdclaflin (Aug 6, 2006)

"kwan" means school.

Moo Duk Kwan was the name of Hwang Kee's school.

The name of his style was "Tang Soo Do".

The phrase "Tang Soo Do" in korean was so common that it was attributed to a lot of different styles, kind of like we use the word "karate" in the USA.  Hwang Kee's style was renamed "Soo Bahk Do".  But the school name is still "Moo Duk Kwan".


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 5, 2006)

Not the school name, the "organization"...


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## MALibrarian (Sep 6, 2006)

Since we're on the question of Moo Duk Kwan..  Who should/can claim to be Moo Duk Kwon?  I'm not affiliated with any larger organization, nor is my instructor, nor is his (anymore).  On the other hand, the name of the system as it was handed down (from Hwang Kee via Kim Song Ki and Kim Chong Su) was Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwon.

So, is labeling what I teach as Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwon accurate?


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Sep 8, 2006)

Lineage wise...if you are teaching the curriculum utilized by the Moo Duk Kwan prior to 1995, then it may be accurate.

But is it ethical?  No.  Since Hwang Kee gave the Moo Duk Kwan (His school by the way) to his heir (Hwang Hyun Chul), then unless your are affiliated to a certified dojang under the umbrella of the Moo Duk Kwan under his egiss....then it would be unethical to claim to CURRENTLY be Moo Duk Kwan.

Many of us have already faced this moral delimna and chosen to use other names for our Kwans today.  We can always teach our history of where we come from, but it would be wrong  and misleading to claim to be something we are not.

And trust me, if you have become familiar with what the new administration has done to the Moo Duk Kwan.....you might not want to be affiliated.

The Emperor


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## MALibrarian (Sep 8, 2006)

A very good point that.  Thank you very much for the reply


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 15, 2006)

The main problem with this issue is that practitioners that have come from lineage that began with the Moo Duk Kwon, the fact is, as has been stated many times is that; we (or most of us on this discussion board) teach Tang Soo Do (The name KJN Hwang Kee gave to his system/art/Way). Moo Duk Kwon is the name of an organization that was started by KJN Hwang Kee, and was given at the time of his death to his son, H.C. Hwang.

The only way to call your self a member of the Moo Duk Kwon is to join the Soo Bahk Do Federation, under H.C. Hwang and be a Card Holding Member. If you are not involved with this specific Federation, you may be teaching Tang Soo Do, but thats it no Moo Duk Kwon membership.

At this point in time, H.C. Hwang has a serious team of lawyers chasing down and bringing law suits against those who choose to use the name Moo Duk Kwon, use the fist and laurels with the Moo-Tang-Soo in the scroll, etc.

As JH stated; many who were once Moo Duk Kwon members (like me) changed our association names and artwork to remove any such possibility of being caught up in the court room.


Yours in Tang Soo Do (not *Moo Duk Kwon*) ,


Master Jay S. Penfil


*TANG SOO!!!* (not *Soo Bahk*)


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## Butch (Sep 17, 2006)

I will ditto Master Penfil and John Handcock"s statements in fact I have took down the flag and tore off the patch and will never mention Moo Duk Kwan in my school again. I am disapointed in the way they have treated the pass members of the Moo Dulk Kwan and the people that help make it what it was, not what it is!
Butch Voss
World Traditional Tang Soo Do Fed.


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Sep 19, 2006)

Butch, Thank you for your compliment.  But please, there is no 'd' in my name.  Don't worry.  Lots of people make this mistake, but my name is spelled exactly the same as the famous Constitutional signer.  

However, I still prefer 'The Emperor'.  LOL!!

Thanks.


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## Dillon Hall (Oct 11, 2006)

mjd said:


> Some one turn the lights on in here, I must understand one thing before I die and move on to the after life.
> 
> What is this about Tang Soo Do being Moo Duk Kwan or not?, maybe I missed the boat, but are not all Tang Soo Do from the Moo Duk Kwan.
> 
> ...


 
First, let me say that I am a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan.
The Moo Duk Kwan was started by Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee in the 1940's. He had found the Muye Dobo Tongji and Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan was created from that. 
In the 1970's, the art changed its name to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan because of philisophical changes that were made to the art and new concepts that were being taught. At this point, many people split off to continue Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. It is these people that are Moo Duk Kwan lineage, but only Soo Bahk Do is the "true" Moo Duk Kwan since Hwang Kee stuck with Soo Bahk Do. Any other Tang Soo Do that was created by others to use the name are certainly not Moo Duk Kwan.
I hope this helps!
Dillon Hall


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## Dillon Hall (Oct 11, 2006)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> The main problem with this issue is that practitioners that have come from lineage that began with the Moo Duk Kwon, the fact is, as has been stated many times is that; we (or most of us on this discussion board) teach Tang Soo Do (The name KJN Hwang Kee gave to his system/art/Way). Moo Duk Kwon is the name of an organization that was started by KJN Hwang Kee, and was given at the time of his death to his son, H.C. Hwang.
> 
> The only way to call your self a member of the Moo Duk Kwon is to join the Soo Bahk Do Federation, under H.C. Hwang and be a Card Holding Member. If you are not involved with this specific Federation, you may be teaching Tang Soo Do, but thats it no Moo Duk Kwon membership.
> 
> ...


 
Ok,
So I dont see why people care if they are part of the Moo Duk Kwan or not. If you disagree with the concepts being taught in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan then dont use the name/logo. There is such a thing a copyright. If you wanted to use Coca-Cola to help out out business without Coca-Cola's consent and they brought you to court, it would be understandable, right? I dont see why peopel are so angry at the Moo Duk Kwan. 
Just one question: why did you start training? Was it for self defence, or better health, better flexability, just to train, to have fun, etc? Or was it to insult another art? To play politics? what? 
I do take offence to your incorret criticism of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and I dont think that this was the origional intent of the person posting this.


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Oct 11, 2006)

> I dont see why peopel are so angry at the Moo Duk Kwan.



Oh....please don't be confused.  Most are not angry at the MDK...just the current leadership and some of their decisions.  But you are correct in that if you are not a SBD practitioner today, then you are definitely not MDK.  But that doesn't mean you 'weren't' ever MDK.  I trained and tested and ranked in TSD in the MDK in Seoul in 1984.   The MDK didn't officially drop TSD as it art unitl 1995.  And even today they still have some TSD Hyung in their system.  So many can legitimately say they have a lineage to/through the MDK.  I think the majority of people who have expressed their displeasure with the MDK are thinking about some of the egotiscal and nasty letters that were mailed out to several instructors who had given their sweat, heart and soul to the MDK for many years only to be accused of bringing 'impurities' to the school and not following 'moo do' like a good little drone should.  Making threats to financially ruin people with protracted legal battles is a poor demonstration of Kyum Son if you ask me.  And it is ludicrous to tell people that after 20 years of practicing forms they have to suddenly either stop teaching them or start paying a royalty to the MDK.   They say they are an organiztion devoted to education....but they seem to be more worried about protecting a franchise.  I don't remember my University ever sending me a letter saying I have to pay them everytime I counsel someone.

The Emperor


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## exile (Oct 11, 2006)

I don't want to churn things up still more, just seek a bit of additional clarification on the name`Moo Duk Kwan'. Isn't it the case that the Kwan split when the WTF was formed, with some members of the MDK going with the WTF? Richard Chun has a two-volume set of books called _Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwan Do_; I gathered from this that he was one who threw in his lot with the WTF way back when... is this an accurate summary of what happened?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 11, 2006)

Naw, we're hashing over stuff that happened after that.  All of it is ******** in the end.  The bottom line is this, you can't control what other people do, but you can control what you do.  

Control what YOU do.


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Oct 11, 2006)

Master Chun indeed was a MDK TSD practitioner that went along with the Kwan consolidation and the TKD movement.  While Hwang Kee never authorized nor approved of any MDK members participating in the TKD movement, that didn't keep members from believing that TKD was the way to go.  The Korean Taekwondo Association, during its initial phase catorized the various member under  5 recognized Kwans...and they listed MDK as one of them.  They didn't have a right to do this...but that didn't keep them from doing it anyway.

THe Emperor


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## exile (Oct 11, 2006)

EmperorOfKentukki said:


> Master Chun indeed was a MDK TSD practitioner that went along with the Kwan consolidation and the TKD movement.  While Hwang Kee never authorized nor approved of any MDK members participating in the TKD movement, that didn't keep members from believing that TKD was the way to go.  The Korean Taekwondo Association, during its initial phase catorized the various member under  5 recognized Kwans...and they listed MDK as one of them.  They didn't have a right to do this...but that didn't keep them from doing it anyway.
> 
> THe Emperor



EoK---thanks for the clarification; that dovetails with what I had thought. 



upnorthkyosa said:


> Naw, we're hashing over stuff that happened after that.



Right, UpNKy, I knew that was later---what I meant was, was my statement correct about the TKD/TSD split within MDK, before any of the other stuff you guys were posting about happened. Apart from that, though, I hadn't realized that MDK had gone through so many convulsions as it seems to have...


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Oct 11, 2006)

Actually, I think all the intrigue of the MDK is what makes it such an interesting study.

I know.  Typical American, right?!   LOL!

The Emperor


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## exile (Oct 11, 2006)

EmperorOfKentukki said:


> Actually, I think all the intrigue of the MDK is what makes it such an interesting study.
> 
> I know.  Typical American, right?!   LOL!
> 
> The Emperor



Nah, we Canucks are the same in that respect :wink1: Anything with a sufficiently complex history... I have to say, the MDK saga is way more convoluted than I had realized. 

The world (some of it, anyway) is ready for a definitive history of the post -WWII MA scene in Korea, with the story of the Kwans a major focus. I never quite have the sense that I understand how things really worked then, no matter how much stuff on it I read.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Oct 12, 2006)

Dillon Hall said:


> Ok,
> So I dont see why people care if they are part of the Moo Duk Kwan or not. If you disagree with the concepts being taught in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan then dont use the name/logo. There is such a thing a copyright. If you wanted to use Coca-Cola to help out out business without Coca-Cola's consent and they brought you to court, it would be understandable, right? I dont see why peopel are so angry at the Moo Duk Kwan.
> Just one question: why did you start training? Was it for self defence, or better health, better flexability, just to train, to have fun, etc? Or was it to insult another art? To play politics? what?
> I do take offence to your incorret criticism of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and I dont think that this was the origional intent of the person posting this.


 

Dillon,
In my posting here, I am not stating any issue of discontent with the Moo Duk Kwan of with H.C. Hwang regarding the use of the name Moo Duk Kwan in any non Federation schools.

I was simply clarifying what it means to be a Moo Duk Kwan practitioner. Most of the people asking about this specific issue do not understand the difference between the art and the organization. It was my intention to clarify this difference, not bash the Federation or H.C. Hwang for going after those who choose to use the name Moo Duk Kwan in their association or school name when they are not members of H.C. Hwangs Federation


You may have misunderstood what I was stating


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## Dillon Hall (Oct 12, 2006)

EmperorOfKentukki said:


> Oh....please don't be confused. Most are not angry at the MDK...just the current leadership and some of their decisions. But you are correct in that if you are not a SBD practitioner today, then you are definitely not MDK. But that doesn't mean you 'weren't' ever MDK. I trained and tested and ranked in TSD in the MDK in Seoul in 1984. The MDK didn't officially drop TSD as it art unitl 1995. And even today they still have some TSD Hyung in their system. So many can legitimately say they have a lineage to/through the MDK. I think the majority of people who have expressed their displeasure with the MDK are thinking about some of the egotiscal and nasty letters that were mailed out to several instructors who had given their sweat, heart and soul to the MDK for many years only to be accused of bringing 'impurities' to the school and not following 'moo do' like a good little drone should. Making threats to financially ruin people with protracted legal battles is a poor demonstration of Kyum Son if you ask me. And it is ludicrous to tell people that after 20 years of practicing forms they have to suddenly either stop teaching them or start paying a royalty to the MDK. They say they are an organiztion devoted to education....but they seem to be more worried about protecting a franchise. I don't remember my University ever sending me a letter saying I have to pay them everytime I counsel someone.
> 
> The Emperor


 
I know that people were part of the Moo Duk Kwan at one point, that was not what I was intending to argue. What I meant was that when so much **** happened during the transition why people felt that they couldn't continue to practice their art. I realize that a lot of people were hurt during that time, though I think that it is time to let it go a little. If we forever remain angry, then it will give us all a bad feeling and eventually hurt our reputation. If people still want to use the Moo Duk Kwan symbol, then they can re-join the Moo Duk Kwan, just as any other place with a copyright would require. 
I also don't understand what you mean by "I don't remember my University ever sending me a letter saying I have to pay them everytime I counsel someone." What is that supposed to mean? I counsel people all the time, and I don't pay anything. As for the fee to stay part of the Moo Duk Kwan, much of that money spent on keeping the organization together. Sure some is also spent in legal disputes and I wont argue against that. But I don't see why it's such a big deal to people. If you don't want to be associated with the Moo Duk Kwan, then change your name, logo, etc and be rid of it. You can't use a place's logo just because you want to. You need permission. It is a law.


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Oct 12, 2006)

Ah.  You must not be aware of the letters that got sent out to selected Sabomnims telling them if they ever teach a Chil Sung or Yuk Ro form to a student then the MDK is entitled to a percentage of their collected tuitions from that student.  

And my reference to college was an example of this type of behavior.  What if every time you did something you learned in college in your professional life, you alma mata required you to send them part of your payroll check.   What the current leadership in the MDK was saying to those Sabomnims were the same kind of thing.   And that is what pissed people off.   Most that left the MDK did't have any ill feeling over not advertising themselves at a MDK school anymore, nor were they put off by not using the MDK symbol anymore.  It wasn't the loss of the symbols that bothered folks...it was the hypocracy of them saying people lacked humility and loyalty and then they turn around and tell them they have to control the forms because if they didn't it would cause the MDK to be impure.  That along with demanding money is a left handed way of saying, "You are all beneath us....and you are theives."   It would probably piss you off if the the Okinawan Shorin-ryu Federation sent you a letter demanding a percentage of your income because you taught your student the Pyong Ahn forms....as these were originally the Pinan forms of the Shorin-ryu founders.  The MDK leadership has broken faith with the Kodanja.  Look around the MDK today.  You don't see too many of the old Kodanja from the first days as members (and no...it isn't because they are all dead now...because they aren't.  Don't belive me....ask Charles Ferarro....or Dan Segarra....or Andy Ahpo).

The Emperor


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 13, 2006)

EmperorOfKentukki said:


> Ah. You must not be aware of the letters that got sent out to selected Sabomnims telling them if they ever teach a Chil Sung or Yuk Ro form to a student then the MDK is entitled to a percentage of their collected tuitions from that student.
> 
> And my reference to college was an example of this type of behavior. What if every time you did something you learned in college in your professional life, you alma mata required you to send them part of your payroll check. What the current leadership in the MDK was saying to those Sabomnims were the same kind of thing. And that is what pissed people off. Most that left the MDK did't have any ill feeling over not advertising themselves at a MDK school anymore, nor were they put off by not using the MDK symbol anymore. It wasn't the loss of the symbols that bothered folks...it was the hypocracy of them saying people lacked humility and loyalty and then they turn around and tell them they have to control the forms because if they didn't it would cause the MDK to be impure. That along with demanding money is a left handed way of saying, "You are all beneath us....and you are theives." It would probably piss you off if the the Okinawan Shorin-ryu Federation sent you a letter demanding a percentage of your income because you taught your student the Pyong Ahn forms....as these were originally the Pinan forms of the Shorin-ryu founders. The MDK leadership has broken faith with the Kodanja. Look around the MDK today. You don't see too many of the old Kodanja from the first days as members (and no...it isn't because they are all dead now...because they aren't. Don't belive me....ask Charles Ferarro....or Dan Segarra....or Andy Ahpo).
> 
> The Emperor


 
I agree. Folks like Andy Ahpo MADE TSD in the United States and, IIRC, they were more or less thrown away by the association. Still, I think TSD is better off anyway as these American instructors you mentioned, IMO, are better trained and teach a finer style than their former masters - GM Hwang Kee excepted, of course.


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## Butch (Oct 21, 2006)

D. Hall,
 You want to know why people get pissed off? Then talk to some of the members of the Moo Duk Kwan that made it what  it was. Ask H. C. Hwang why he went after his instructor, who helped his father build the Moo Duk Kwan for over 30 years.  You can also ask him where the patch your so proud of came from, here is a hint it wasn't Hwang Kee.
Butch


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