# Anybody ever heard of shaolin-do???



## RRouuselot (Dec 16, 2004)

Anybody ever heard of these guys???

http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/history.shtml

 What is your opinon on them?


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## shane23ss (Dec 16, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Anybody ever heard of these guys???
> 
> http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/history.shtml
> 
> What is your opinon on them?


Never heard of this.  I do see a school on that site near me. Maybe I will check them out to see what's up.


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## clfsean (Dec 16, 2004)

Robert... I got my CMA start there, but once I found what I was after, I left.

I met some really great folks there, some really good martial artists, but it's just not what it says it is. It has pieces, but they're largely incomplete. 

PM me for more info... this is too big a kindling pile.


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## The Kai (Dec 16, 2004)

A got's a 2 tape series on the art of shaolin -do.  Mostly comes out a little later at parties, great goofy fun

Todd


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## CMack11 (Dec 16, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Anybody ever heard of these guys???
> 
> http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/history.shtml
> 
> What is your opinon on them?



Do a topic search on this.  There are lots of old threads that address Shaolin-Do.


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## Xequat (Dec 16, 2004)

Whoa. I just did a search on MT about Shaolin-do (one of my arts) and it appears that they are not very well-respected by some people. I'll tell you my opinion, though. It seems to be very much a sport-style karate at my level more than a kung fu killing method. At the later levels, the black belts begin learning the pressure points, cycle of destruction, etc, but I believe that the belts from white to black are for weeding people out. Most of the BB's claim that the real training and learning begins at black belt. It's very secretive, which could annoy some people and drive them away, but I am there for the exercise as well as the knowledge; I love the kata. At my school (and each is a little different), we only learn one or two applications at a time for a move in a kata and we aren't really required to come up with more at this stage.  It's kind of like manly aerobics in a way, heh.

The tournaments are great fun and exercise, but it's mostly kickboxing-type stuff rather than chokes, locks, holds, pressure points, tackles, etc.I really enjoy it for the conditioning and the people, but I'm glad I've taken some kyusho on the side because it is teaching me how to more effectively break down kata into practical fighting uses. It's probably stuff that comes later.

It claims to be the most comprehensive martial art in the world and it might be; that would be one of the first words I'd use to decribe it. So it gives you a taste of white crane, Shaolin bird, monkey, drunken style, tiger, preying mantis, etc, but only at the higher levels do you choose your specialties, from what I hear (could be wrong). For example, we learn 3 White Crane forms for 3rd brown to second brown and 3 Shaolin Bird for 2nd to 1st. So spending 4-6 months on an entire temple's worth of material seems like you could become a jack of all trades, master of none. I guess it comes down to what you practice best.


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## The Kai (Dec 16, 2004)

Golden Roaches

Golden Rooster

tai Chi
and 
Bagua

Wow! 
Todd


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## 7starmantis (Dec 16, 2004)

Its like anything else, there are phoneys out there in every "system". Yes, a search will reveal many thread dedicated to shaolin-do, its quite a heated topic as well. But I know no one is going to get out of hand on *this* thread though, right? 

 7sm


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## archmagician (Dec 16, 2004)

I think 7starmantis just applied a chin na lock on this thread!!! LMAO!!!


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## 7starmantis (Dec 16, 2004)

archmagician said:
			
		

> I think 7starmantis just applied a chin na lock on this thread!!! LMAO!!!


  :rofl: I actually laughed out loud at that one!!  

 Sorry, I wan't trying to stifle discussion, please everyone feel free to continue. I just wanted to make sure we all knew to play nice. 

  7sm


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## RHD (Dec 16, 2004)

Shaolin Do...
 :toilclaw: 
This is one of those threads where if I say what I really think, I'm going to piss some people off.  All I can say is this:  Is Shaolin Do Chinese martial arts?  Kind of( :idunno: ).  Is it capable of producing good martial artists?  As well as any art( :asian: ), it's really up to the student after all.  Would I recommend it to someone seeking to learn CMA?  No.

Mike


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## RRouuselot (Dec 16, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Shaolin Do...
> :toilclaw:
> This is one of those threads where if I say what I really think, I'm going to piss some people off. All I can say is this: Is Shaolin Do Chinese martial arts? Kind of( :idunno: ).  Is it capable of producing good martial artists?  As well as any art( :asian: ), it's really up to the student after all.  Would I recommend it to someone seeking to learn CMA?  No.
> 
> Mike


 What seems kind of strange to me is that they use Japanese words and wear Japanses type Gi (with LOTS of patches)in their Chinese "art"....also I guess you don't really need to train at one of their schools to be a member:

http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/application.html


http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/mission.shtml

  there are 2 "red flags" for me. Organizations that allow you to join via the Internet or by mail allows give me the creeps.


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## sifu Adams (Dec 17, 2004)

I know 7* is watching me on this one.   Let me see if I can fill in some gaps.  The shaolin-do system has some great forms with some great application.  And I have sparred with some of the Masters in the system  Believe me they are some of the best I have ever ran across.  I have been to tournaments throughout the north east US and even went to Athens Greece to a tournament and have yet to run across masters that can preform at the level of the Master's I sparred out of the Shaolin Do system.  There is two branches of the Shaolin Do.  there is Master Sin The' and Master Hiang The'  they are brothers but they split back in the 90's and Hiang The' calls his system centreal Shaolin.  Grand Maste Ie that they talk about was there grand father on their mothers side.  the brothers took diffent paths acording to the note on the back of the photos you see of GM Ie.   According to the Note GM Ie travaled all over china studeing at differnt temples.  Master Sin studied mainly under his grand father witch was a internal master.  Master Hiang studied under 4 differnt masters under the direction of his grand father.   Now let me break the questions down.

Uniforms--according to the brothers and the letter on the back of the photo.  GM Ie fled down to Indonesia why we don't know the brothers say he was wonted for killing gards or militay of some sort.  Can't tell you if this is real or not.  but he did "Flee" to indonesia.  during that time in Indonesia the japanise and Chinise did not get a long.  So GM Ie hid the system by developing a karate style of short forms that had all the main form in the system but would give him time to see if they were spying on the sytle.  this is also why he used the Karate style uniform and the belt ranking that it has today.  

Dose the system have 900 forms-- well I can't say it does.  I have 86 myself and My instuctor (7th degree) has showed out close 150.  We believe that there is around 200 between the brothers.  900 well believe what you wont on that!!! 

Probles with the system-- I will say I teach the art and I can show you take down, throws, hold, locks, ground fighting, inside fighting, outside fighting, weapon fighting, and much more in the system.  however it was not untill my instructor met and started traning with Ramy Preses (who loved are art) and Master Gin foon Mark that he started really showing the applications out.  I believe the coment made before he started teaching was "why should it take you 20 years to learn what I already know".  The brothers don't think that way.  by the way my insturctor was one of the first to reach 7th degree under two brother.  

Is it any good.  Yes if you are trained by some of the upper rake (3-7 degrees) you will and can learn a lot.  if you are training under a 1 black you it will take you much longer to gain skill in the art.  what I have found and truely believe is the shaolin-do white - Green belts are below advrage, the brown belts to 1st black is advrage, but the higher ranks like 3,4 -7 are above the advrage by far.  

 if you are looking for a art to be in and enjoy for years while you contenue to learn new stuff Shaolin do is great.  just remember it will take you a while to become great at the system. but you will be come great if you spend the time in it.
  If you are looking to Kick but tomarrrow.   well I don't know of a system that will do that.  Maybe someone else will.  I can tell you this no matter what system your are in the one who puts the time, heart, and effort in is the one who will be great.


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## RHD (Dec 17, 2004)

As with many other "fringe" CMA's one of the major porblems with SD is that it has no connections to any other CMA's.  There is no common thread there, and literally no one to authenticate by saying "yes, that's what we learned/observed/recall from China back in the day".   Heck, even the 200 forms thing is a major alarm bell.  The only place you can get 200 forms from other than an SD school is a Green Dragon Studios catalog.  (Jack of all trades, master of none)  While I have no doubts that you can become a good fighter by studying at an SD school, I doubt it has anything to do with all the forms or the questionable history.  To me it's a Chinese influenced fighting _art_ that comes out of Indonesia and plays heavily into the Shaolin myth.  

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Dec 18, 2004)

I can agree with this post. I was suprised to hear someone say they had 86 forms allready. Thats quite a bit. I was thinking about how much time we spend on each form. If you spend 6 months on a form, that would take like 43 years. Even if you spent 3 months on a form, thats around 21 years I believe? To learn 200 forms at only 3 months on each form thats what, 50 years? 900 forms would take 225 years at 3 months each. 900 forms would take 75 years at only 1 month for each form! I'm not sayin this to discredit SD, just to show that there are some tall claims floating around.

7sm


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## Xequat (Dec 18, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> also I guess you don't really need to train at one of their schools to be a member:
> 
> there are 2 "red flags" for me. Organizations that allow you to join via the Internet or by mail allows give me the creeps.


The application asks for the name of your teacher and your rank, so maybe you do have to be in training...I'll try to find out. I can understand why you might be creeped, but it's not like you're buying a belt or anything. You're pretty much signing up for the newsletter and getting discounts on seminars and tournaments.

RHD, I'm not sure what you mean by "fringe" CMA. But, yeah, that's pretty much what I said before...it gives you a taste of a bunch of CMA's, but it's up to you at the later levels to choose one and master it. I'm not sure what the Shaolin myth is, either.  Now with the 900 forms claim, maybe GM Sin The has documentation on all of thses forms because so many of them are included. I mean, Shaolin-Do teaches forms from Tai Chi, Pa Kua, internal, external, and several animal forms as well, so maybe these forms are all in the system somehow. I don't know and I don't think anyone can answer that but a few of the higher-ranks. As for the 86 forms, it's kind of misleading, but not untrue. Supposedly in order to appear more Japanese or something, several short forms were created. There are 30 "short kata," 20 "sparring techniques," 20 "Ippon Kumite" (yes, I know it's another Japanese word), and 20 self-defense. So there's 90 right there. As a second-brown, I know those 90 plus 10 long forms and five weapon kata. So yeah 105 sounds like a lot for a brown belt, but I guess it's all in how you define a form.


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## RHD (Dec 18, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> RHD, I'm not sure what you mean by "fringe" CMA.




Didn't really want to go there but:

It's not a CMA recognized by anyone in the CMA community.  It's not silat, it's not karate, so it gets lumped in with CMA.

The thing that really is unappealing to me personally is the smattering of forms from (or reportedly from) multiple styles of kung fu, but utterly lacking the strategic and conceptual base that makes each one unique.  Not to mention the fact that each of these kung fu/fighting systems are comprised as much by the conditioning exercises, drills, and theory specific to them.  I mean really, how can you learn TaiChi, Bagua, Black Tiger, Preying Mantis, and White Crane forms and expect to be accomplishing anything other than some physical activity without the style-specific training methods that go with them?  Shaolin Do is a modern phenomenon: A little bit of this, a little bit of that, and some belts to earn.  Sorry fella's, I know it's going to tick you off, but take the time to do some research on Chinese martial arts and ask the hard questions.

To give an example:
I'm a practitioner of Hung Gar kung fu as passed down through Wong Fei Hung lineages.  Within that system there are 3-5 core empty hand forms that really define the system _(Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen/Gung Pattern Taming Tiger Fist, Fu Hok Sheuhng Ying Kuen/Tiger and Crane Combined Fist, Five Animals, Sup Ying Kuen/Ten Forms Fist, and Titsin Kuen/Iron Wire Fist)_ and 1 or 2 weapon forms _(Ng Long Pa Kwa Gwun/Fifth Son 8 Diagram Long Pole, and possibly a butterfly knife set)_ that can be considered "original". 

Different schools will vary in the number of supplememtary forms they may teach, but these are the defining forms of Hung gar.   However, the forms alone amount to very little.  The drills, "gung"/attribute building exercises, and theory behind them is the important part, in addtion to hours and hours of time spent training hands on practicing what's contained within the forms and backed up by the gung.  In essence, once learned the forms really need to be put on the back burner so the real training can commence, and it's all very specific to Hung Gar's strategies and theories and wouldn't apply to the way a Preying Mantis or BaGua practitioner moves in a direct way.

What I'm getting at here is that it's so very un-CMA like to have that many forms, from completely different strategies and backgrounds, and expect to produce an effective fighting method from them.  My thoughts are that those who obtain martial skill from SD get it from whatever drills and exercises you do in or out of class other than forms practice.

So, I apologize if my opinion upsets you.  However, I have no doubt it's an opinion shared broadly throughout the CMA community.

Mike


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Dec 18, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> What I'm getting at here is that it's so very un-CMA like to have that many forms, from completely different strategies and backgrounds, and expect to produce an effective fighting method from them.


Agreed.  About twenty years ago, I ran into a guy who claimed that he was going to create a style by combining Wing Chun and Taekwondo.  His reasoning was that since Wing Chun has great punches, and Taekwondo has great kicks, putting them together would make a superior martial art.  I pointed out to him that the two arts' respective strategies would conflict, and he would wind up with bad Wing Chun or bad Taekwondo (as it turned out, it was just bad, _period._) 

As for Shaolin-Do, a central Ohio school of the style has dropped the "Do" and replaced the belts with colored "T" shirts indicating their rank (or at least they did at the Asian Festival in Columbus last summer).  Maybe the gis and belts were catching flack from the CMA community.  Just a guess on my part  :idunno: .


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Agreed. About twenty years ago, I ran into a guy who claimed that he was going to create a style by combining Wing Chun and Taekwondo. His reasoning was that since Wing Chun has great punches, and Taekwondo has great kicks, putting them together would make a superior martial art. I pointed out to him that the two arts' respective strategies would conflict, and he would wind up with bad Wing Chun or bad Taekwondo (as it turned out, it was just bad, _period._)
> 
> As for Shaolin-Do, a central Ohio school of the style has dropped the "Do" and replaced the belts with colored "T" shirts indicating their rank (or at least they did at the Asian Festival in Columbus last summer). Maybe the gis and belts were catching flack from the CMA community. Just a guess on my part :idunno: .


 I call those kinds of styles Cuisine Art styleslike that blender thingy.....add a little of this a little of that and you get a whole lot of garbage.


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## sifu Adams (Dec 21, 2004)

OK I am back I have been off for a few days.  First of all the Shaolin do form I have are long forms not short.  The short forms and Sparing tech.  all come out of the forms that are in the system.  They were taken out to help train the student before learning the forms.  just like you would teach a front kick before you would teach a form that has a front kick in it.  *Randy Strausbaugh* I see you are from Ohio I am located just south of dayton I would invite you down to my school to see the way we teach the are and to show you my 86 forms.  I am not just talking I can back them up and am willing to show you any of them.  I can also show you how they work for fighting as well.  This goes out to anyone If your forms are not showing you how to fight why are you doing them?  All my fighting tech. comes out of my "Shaolin Do" forms.  *RhD  *we don't clam to be CMA we are a shaolin art.  We do have a core forms in our system like the Taipang Birds and Iron man.  There are a complete 18 taipang system and a complete 18 throwing dagger system, they start with training forms and move up to more advance tech. You also say  "...that can be considered "original". " why bebecause someone told you this, because some one typed it on the internet?  What is ment by "original".  If you look back no one can tell you what is "original" when it comes to the old style of shaolin.  the temples were burnt so many times a lot of history was lost.  You say the system is not "silat, it's not karate"  lets look at that.  Were did silat and karate come from?  If I remember it came form the Shaolin arts?  if this is true.  why don't they look like the shaolin we see today?  why don't they have the stance of the hung Gar?  Maybe it's not that the Shaolin do looks like Karate, maybe its Karate looks like Shaolin do?  I have showed some top masters like Ramy Presas, Gin foon Mark, some of the advance forms of the Shaolin do and they don't question it.  Master Gin foon Mark who is respected my any style of kung fu walked into my instructors Gym in Hazard KY (yes Hazard, I have photos if you would like to see them) and he walked around the gym and he looked at all the Photo's, certificate's, weapons ect that was on the walls of the Shaolin do system and made the commit as he read the Certificate "shaolin Karate".  My instructor walked to the middle of the floor and preformed  our brown belt Iron man form we he was done Master Mark said "that's shaolin", my instructor preform a advance taipang form, Master Mark said "that's  anchent Shaolin".  Standing there in the room and watching Master Mark call the system Anchent Shaolin was all I needed to believe in the art.


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## RHD (Dec 21, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Didn't really want to go there but:
> 
> It's not a CMA recognized by anyone in the CMA community.  It's not silat, it's not karate, so it gets lumped in with CMA.



Silat and Karate are two other marital arts widel practiced in Indonesia.  Doesn't SD trace it's history through Indonesia?



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> The thing that really is unappealing to me personally is the smattering of forms from (or reportedly from) multiple styles of kung fu, but utterly lacking the strategic and conceptual base that makes each one unique.  Not to mention the fact that each of these kung fu/fighting systems are comprised as much by the conditioning exercises, drills, and theory specific to them.  I mean really, how can you learn TaiChi, Bagua, Black Tiger, Preying Mantis, and White Crane forms and expect to be accomplishing anything other than some physical activity without the style-specific training methods that go with them?  Shaolin Do is a modern phenomenon: A little bit of this, a little bit of that, and some belts to earn.  Sorry fella's, I know it's going to tick you off, but take the time to do some research on Chinese martial arts and ask the hard questions.



I stand on this.



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> To give an example:
> I'm a practitioner of Hung Gar kung fu as passed down through Wong Fei Hung lineages.  Within that system there are 3-5 core empty hand forms that really define the system _(Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen/Gung Pattern Taming Tiger Fist, Fu Hok Sheuhng Ying Kuen/Tiger and Crane Combined Fist, Five Animals, Sup Ying Kuen/Ten Forms Fist, and Titsin Kuen/Iron Wire Fist)_ and 1 or 2 weapon forms _(Ng Long Pa Kwa Gwun/Fifth Son 8 Diagram Long Pole, and possibly a butterfly knife set)_ that can be considered "original".



When I refer to original here, I am talking about what is documented in text from the early 20th century *specific to Hung gar  * as an example of a Chinese martial art.[/B]  Unfortnately it's as old as the known documentation goes, but it's from books that detail what Wong Fei Hung taught his students.  So yes, it was something I was told, and have read, and even found on the internet.  Unfortunately most of the history of Southern Shaolin is verbal.  However, this is what is uniformly accepted by the international Hung Gar community, at least those who trace thier history through Wong Fei Hung.  



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> In essence, once learned the forms really need to be put on the back burner so the real training can commence, and it's all very specific to Hung Gar's strategies and theories and wouldn't apply to the way a Preying Mantis or BaGua practitioner moves in a direct way.



I stand on this as an example of why so many forms from all over the place are a bad idea.



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> What I'm getting at here is that it's so very un-CMA like to have that many forms, from completely different strategies and backgrounds, and expect to produce an effective fighting method from them.  My thoughts are that those who obtain martial skill from SD get it from whatever drills and exercises you do in or out of class other than forms practice.
> 
> So, I apologize if my opinion upsets you.  However, I have no doubt it's an opinion shared broadly throughout the CMA community.
> 
> Mike



I stand on this as well...*And again, the post wasn't to piss you off or make light of your art.  This is a discussion board.  I refuse to play "politically correct" so that everyone feels good.*



			
				sifu adams said:
			
		

> RhD we don't clam to be CMA we are a shaolin art. We do have a core forms in our system like the Taipang Birds and Iron man. There are a complete 18 taipang system and a complete 18 throwing dagger system, they start with training forms and move up to more advance tech.



Well, shaolin is a CMA term.  Your profile says you have rank in kung fu, another CMA related term...

Now, the core forms you mention, that is interesting.  How do they relate to the other 84 forms?  Do they build on the same foundation, work off of the same strategies and concepts?  



			
				sifu adams said:
			
		

> I have showed some top masters like Ramy Presas, Gin foon Mark, some of the advance forms of the Shaolin do and they don't question it. Master Gin foon Mark who is respected my any style of kung fu walked into my instructors Gym in Hazard KY (yes Hazard, I have photos if you would like to see them) and he walked around the gym and he looked at all the Photo's, certificate's, weapons ect that was on the walls of the Shaolin do system and made the commit as he read the Certificate "shaolin Karate". My instructor walked to the middle of the floor and preformed our brown belt Iron man form we he was done Master Mark said "that's shaolin", my instructor preform a advance taipang form, Master Mark said "that's anchent Shaolin". Standing there in the room and watching Master Mark call the system Anchent Shaolin was all I needed to believe in the art.



Okay, so Remy Presas and Gin Foon Mark liked your stuff. That's fine.  *Did anyone ever say here it was bad or ineffective?  No.  * The discussion has been:  Is it a Chinese Martial Art?  Earlier you referred to my belief in something becasue I was "told"...When did Gin Foon Mark become an expert in the area of "ancient Shaolin"?  He's a Southern Preying Mantis guy (with a very good reputation I might add), which is a Hakka style and not of what is widely recognized as shaolin origin.  Maybe he has some historicall knowledge above and beyond the rest of the CMA community, or maybe he was simply being polite.  It's not like he was going to walk into your school and say "you suck"...

Sifu Adams, I have no doubt as to the effectiveness of your style, and your ability to use it.  I do think that there's some missing chapters to its evolution.

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 21, 2004)

And so, the general consensus is...

Shaolin-Do = Shaolin Don't. :idunno:


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## sifu Adams (Dec 21, 2004)

You ask about the form and how we train.   I have 7 taipang (bird) forms, 3 white crane form, and 3 shaolin bird forms. when I practic I work all the 13 birds forms together, all 9 tiger forms together, all 9 dagger forms, ect.  so once I go into the style I remain in the style for that work out.  same with the internals.  They may be differnt in name ( black tiger, white tiger, ect) but they "build on the same foundation, work off of the same strategies and concepts".  I will say this it is not a easy art.  you have to put the time in.  When I do a form I am shadow boxing as should be with any form.  granted you have to use sparring for timing and distanceing but the heart of the aplication should be in the forms.  We excel in sparring because we can change are whole way of fighting 3-4-5 times is a single match.  If I fight a TKD I am not going to trade kicks with them that is what they are good at instead I might use the mantis try to shut the legs down.  At the same time if I fighting someone in judo, I don't wont to fight close I might fight like a monkey go in attack and get out.  Having all the forms dose not limmit me to one way of fighting.  I have the abblity to change if needed.  I have my styles I like most but push comes to shove I will change before I lose.  when you fight someone in SD you don't know they will do.  they can kick high low, ground fight, fight inside, outside, they can throw, hold, grab, lock, use pressure points, strike, punch, ect... how many differnt ways can you fight?


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## clfsean (Dec 21, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> ... how many differnt ways can you fight?


All of the ones you mentioned & maybe a couple more, but the difference is that the majority of us fight with just one flavor ... Hung Ga, Choy Lee Fut, Praying Mantis, etc... Not saying other things are discounted since it may not be what we do, but when we do it, it's done with our distinct flavor. 

One of my big gripes with SD is that you never learned anything... you practiced lots of different things (some credible, some not) ... but you never stopped & learned one idea... flavor... style... pai... whatever you want to call it. It was always a smidge here, a smidge there... you never made anything your own by doing just that.


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## RHD (Dec 21, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> We excel in sparring because we can change are whole way of fighting 3-4-5 times is a single match.  If I fight a TKD I am not going to trade kicks with them that is what they are good at instead I might use the mantis try to shut the legs down.  At the same time if I fighting someone in judo, I don't wont to fight close I might fight like a monkey go in attack and get out.  Having all the forms dose not limmit me to one way of fighting.  I have the abblity to change if needed.  I have my styles I like most but push comes to shove I will change before I lose.  when you fight someone in SD you don't know they will do.  they can kick high low, ground fight, fight inside, outside, they can throw, hold, grab, lock, use pressure points, strike, punch, ect... how many differnt ways can you fight?



Okay, this is interesting, so how different are the changes?  I mean, from mantis to monkey are you using a completely different set of concepts or are you using the same ones adapted to your opponent?  What I'm looking at with a critical eye here is that the structure and mechanics of monkey are waaaaaay different from mantis and so forth.  How can you spend enough time learning how to use them both?  Or is it like: vs. a kicker, we use mantis tactics, vs. a boxer, we use monkey?  On top of all the forms, the drills and breakdown for switching like that I would speculate it would take years and years to get even basically competent with.

To compare and contrast with what I practice (and please, the intention is not to say that my art is better!):

In Hung gar we use a few footwork patterns, combined with bridging skills (which must be trained intensively) against whatever comes.  If it's a kicker we don't let them kick or make them wish they hadn't.  Against boxer we don't let them box, or make them wish they hadn't, etc...  I have it on good advice that most other Chinese styles stick to thier guns and don't switch mechanics much.




			
				clfsean said:
			
		

> All of the ones you mentioned & maybe a couple more, but the difference is that the majority of us fight with just one flavor ... Hung Ga, Choy Lee Fut, Praying Mantis, etc... Not saying other things are discounted since it may not be what we do, but when we do it, it's done with our distinct flavor.



This is what I was trying to get at...clfsean says it better.  A person reading this will be tempted to say that fighting with one flavor is a disadvantage to someone who can fight with more than one flavor.  However, those pai all have thier own methods within them for dealing with the kicker, the boxer, the judo player, etc...The thing here is, working within one style (my bias of course being Southern kung fu styles) within three years of training one should be competent in most situations.  The whole idea of it taking a lifetime to become skilled is one of those myths that have somehow made it into CMA training from people who don't really understand what thier doing.

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Dec 21, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> We excel in sparring because we can change are whole way of fighting 3-4-5 times is a single match. If I fight a TKD I am not going to trade kicks with them that is what they are good at instead I might use the mantis try to shut the legs down. At the same time if I fighting someone in judo, I don't wont to fight close I might fight like a monkey go in attack and get out. Having all the forms dose not limmit me to one way of fighting. I have the abblity to change if needed. I have my styles I like most but push comes to shove I will change before I lose. when you fight someone in SD you don't know they will do. they can kick high low, ground fight, fight inside, outside, they can throw, hold, grab, lock, use pressure points, strike, punch, ect... how many differnt ways can you fight?


 Here is the problem I see. Your abandoning your "guns" or your style to try and fight a "different style" because what your doing isn't working. In my opinion your just simply not skilled enough in what you were doing to make it work. It shouldn't matter what the fighter does, kick high, kick low, punch, bite, scratch, spit. If your system can't handle a certain type of fighter, my advise would be look at another system. In mantis we have ways of dealing with all of the "types" of fighters you mentioned without having to "switch to TKD". It comes down to that "jack of all trades" argument, which for the record, I completely agree with. 

  7sm


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## sifu Adams (Dec 21, 2004)

Let me go back to some of the history I posted once before.  acording to the grandfather of the brothers (and I will be talking about Master Hiang becuase that is the one I know the most.  Sin The' is the brother and I only trained under him untill my instructor go sued by him then we when under his brother, long story).  master Hiang learned the complete tai pang system from master Lu su Pong who was under his grandfather.  after learning the system he was trained by 4 other master who taugh him what would enhance his bird system and would round him out.  example is we have a lot of traping tech.  Tiger trap, mantis trap, Tai pang Trap ect.  we also have a lot of blizing tai pang bliz, prying mantis blitz, dragon blitz.  As for the flavor I fight Shaolin Do flavor.  this is what I don't understand with all the arguments.  If you train in the SD long enough you will find that we have a flavor of fighting.  I travaled to Athens greece last year to a tournament and I was watching a guy do countinous sparring.  after the first 30 sec. I knew he had been in our art.  He had came to greece  with a school that he had been with only 3 months.  he had trained in a SD school in Tenn. befor that.  ( He also won the black belt contenous sparing)  

  As for breaking our form.  we are taugh to bounce from one style to another.  What is 5 anamil kung fu?  only one style?  Bruce Lee even said in a interveiw that in most schools if you can beat the theorys and consepts then you can beat everyone in the schools theory and consepts.  That doesn't mean you can beat everyone their, in means the only differnts between the students is one is faster, one slower, one has a faster kick, one has a faster punch ect.  Bruce lee took theory and consepts from everywhere put them together and became veary good.  His ability to change is what made him so tough.  you can not walk into my school and fight me beat me and expect to beat all my student.  they all have diffent ways of fighting.  because some like the mantis, drunken, birds, drangon, tigers ect...  what works for me may not work for my student.  example in tkd they love to kick to the head. well I am 5'5" and if I try to kick someone to the head that is 6'10" it will take 3 days for my foot to get there and if he is kicking back his leg will reach me 2 days be for my leg gets even close. 
   by teaching and learning the diffent forms in our system then I know what it takes to kick head level.  and that helps me know how to defend from it.  do I think there is some problems with the art yes as with all styles.  I do feel we have a better chance at recovery that what most styles have.  I something don't work what do you do?  in a perfect would everything works but I don't live it that world.  I may like mantis but what if I crossed 7* and he is better at mantis than me should I take my loss? or make him work by changing my whole theroy to tiger or Hsing I or monkey.  even for a brief min. would that catch you off gard?  I'm asking you to think about your art.  Do you know how to spar someone in the monkey style, Hsing I, Tiger, drunken, snake, bird system?  have you ever spared anyone that has done these styles?  if not how do you know your art will work when you do face it?  I know how I will react because I do the styles all the time I know the basics of the systems.  my main style is tai pang bird.  but you art going to supprise me with the mantis.


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## sifu Adams (Dec 22, 2004)

7* your right in SD it dose not make a differnts in what you throw at me I can change to a differnt style with in my SD system  just like you change within you mantis to fit.  or are you saying you use the same block on every move?  you use differnt hands to fit differant moves. How would you fight if I was able to use the bird to keep you from moving in close.  If I keep you at a 3-4 step spacing.  I know how to close the gap and I know how to keep the gap wide do you?


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## clfsean (Dec 22, 2004)

You get better by working one thing to fit anything that's thrown at you. You get better by not doing a smidge of this & a smidge of that. You get better by focusing your efforts & adapting to whatever attack is coming at you with what you do. With that in mind, why would I try to learn something I don't practice all the time to try to fight with? I've learned a couple of PM sets & they're fun to play, but I don't try to use them in class. Since they're not my focus, I'd be at a disadvantage in using them. 

As far as fighting other CMA styles, why switch to something different to try to combat them?? One of two things has happened in that scenario... 1) You're fighting a way better fighter & the best thing to do is go have tea & not fight... 2) Your training may not have been as comprehensive in nature as originally thought & switching gears constantly is a reflex that is prolonging the inevitable. 

Do one thing... maybe two... do them well & don't sweat the rest. If you'll notice many "old school" CMA guys may know sets from several different systems, but only practice/teach one, maybe two styles at most. Why?? Keeping the techniques clean & reflexes unhindered.


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## RHD (Dec 22, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> Do you know how to spar someone in the monkey style, Hsing I, Tiger, drunken, snake, bird system?  have you ever spared anyone that has done these styles?  if not how do you know your art will work when you do face it?  I know how I will react because I do the styles all the time I know the basics of the systems.  my main style is tai pang bird.  but you art going to supprise me with the mantis.



This is what we're getting at.  You are doing forms, but are you working the theories, concepts, mechanics and strategies of each of those systems?  We are fort he most part saying that each one of those is unique with its own methods for dealing with different types of oppnenets, but staying within the system.  Not to mention the supplementary training and conditioning specific to each.  

Even within five animal kung fu, though there are distinct differences between each animal there are a few very important ideas.  One is that you pick one that suits you best and stick with it.  Another, and more interesting is that most schools only have a five animal form.  That's it.  just a form, and it's mostly for show.  Also, the very few "pure" five animals systems that there are, and thses are extremely rare...all of the animals work off the same basics.  The hand shapes change, and there are a few unique points to each animal, but they work off the same base and are clearly within the same system.  I doubt many people will ever see a true five animal style in action.

There's lots of kung fu in Ohio...Mantis, even monkey if my memory serves me right.  It would be of tremendous benefit to you to check some of them out and spend a little time training in them.


Mike


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## The Kai (Dec 22, 2004)

* I travaled to Athens greece last year to a tournament and I was watching a guy do countinous sparring. after the first 30 sec. I knew he had been in our art. He had came to greece with a school that he had been with only 3 months. he had trained in a SD school in Tenn. befor that. ( He also won the black belt contenous sparing) 
*He only trained in your style for 3 months??
Todd


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## 7starmantis (Dec 22, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> 7* your right in SD it dose not make a differnts in what you throw at me I can change to a differnt style with in my SD system just like you change within you mantis to fit. or are you saying you use the same block on every move? you use differnt hands to fit differant moves. How would you fight if I was able to use the bird to keep you from moving in close. If I keep you at a 3-4 step spacing. I know how to close the gap and I know how to keep the gap wide do you?


 Well, first let me clarify what I meant by "change". When you say your able to "change" to fit the situation your speaking of chaning styles which also inplies a changing of intent, concept, and principle. When I said I can "change" within mantis, I'm only chaning a techniques within the mantis system which holds to the same intent, concepts, and principles. If you were to kep me at 3 or 4 steps, you wouldn't be able to touch me since 3 or 4 steps would most deffinitely be out of anyones reach. I could just run if I needed to. However, your assuming that because you train to be able to keep people "out" that you can do it 100% of the time. Dont most people train to not get hit? Your still going to get hit in a fight aren't you?

 My problem is that you can't possibly know or be able to use all of the techinques and concepts of the mantis system. See, just touchingon the mantis system doesn't mean you can fight the way a mantis fighter would. You may know a mantis set or a few mantis techniques but its impossible for you to know the true concepts and principles behind mantis kung fu by just touching on the mantis for a month or so in your training.

  7sm


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## clfsean (Dec 22, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> My problem is that you can't possibly know or be able to use all of the techinques and concepts of the mantis system. See, just touchingon the mantis system doesn't mean you can fight the way a mantis fighter would. You may know a mantis set or a few mantis techniques but its impossible for you to know the true concepts and principles behind mantis kung fu by just touching on the mantis for a month or so in your training.
> 
> 7sm


Give that man a Twinkie & Beer!!! artyon:


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## 7starmantis (Dec 22, 2004)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Give that man a Twinkie & Beer!!! artyon:


  Hey now, its only 8am here!!

 7sm


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## sifu Adams (Dec 22, 2004)

How long do you practice a form  I do all mine at least 3 times a week if not 4-5 a week.  You keep saying only a few months in the style.  do you believe you need all the forms in your system to fight?  I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86. however if you work on the 86 just as hard as you would the one or two what do you think would happen.  One of the problems I see in the SD system is just that.  many of the students only work on the form 2-3 months then put it on the self.  in that case i would agree with you.  but I train as hard at all my forms.  And I believe that is the diffenance in what I see in the SD system.  If I train in your mantis forms 3-4 times a week do you think I would be any good at it?


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## 7starmantis (Dec 22, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> How long do you practice a form I do all mine at least 3 times a week if not 4-5 a week. You keep saying only a few months in the style. do you believe you need all the forms in your system to fight? I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86. however if you work on the 86 just as hard as you would the one or two what do you think would happen. One of the problems I see in the SD system is just that. many of the students only work on the form 2-3 months then put it on the self. in that case i would agree with you. but I train as hard at all my forms. And I believe that is the diffenance in what I see in the SD system. If I train in your mantis forms 3-4 times a week do you think I would be any good at it?


 Actually no. I dont think training in a mantis form 3 -4 times a week would make you good at it. I do all of my forms 5 times each 5 times a week at a minimum. However that is just one very small part of my mantis training. What makes you fight like a mantis practitioner isn't the amount of mantis techniques you have, or the amount of mantis forms you know. Its the concepts and principles of the mantis system. I'm sorry, you just can't take a few mantis forms and practice them and truly know the principles and concepts of the mantis system, any system for that matter. Your relating doigna mantis form to fighting like a mantis fighter, thats simply not the case.

  7sm


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## RHD (Dec 22, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> How long do you practice a form  I do all mine at least 3 times a week if not 4-5 a week.  You keep saying only a few months in the style.  do you believe you need all the forms in your system to fight? * I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86. * however if you work on the 86 just as hard as you would the one or two what do you think would happen.  One of the problems I see in the SD system is just that.  many of the students only work on the form 2-3 months then put it on the self.  in that case i would agree with you.  but I train as hard at all my forms.  And I believe that is the diffenance in what I see in the SD system.  If I train in your mantis forms 3-4 times a week do you think I would be any good at it?



_I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86._

Actually, you'd be much much better off rather than doing just as good.  This is what we've been trying to say.  There's no way you can conssitently do this with 86 forms.  Heck, even 10 forms would be an incredible undertakeing.  You'd have to be spending a good 6 hours a day doing this and need training partners available as well...
Mike


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## clfsean (Dec 22, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> * I travaled to Athens greece last year to a tournament and I was watching a guy do countinous sparring. after the first 30 sec. I knew he had been in our art. He had came to greece with a school that he had been with only 3 months. he had trained in a SD school in Tenn. befor that. ( He also won the black belt contenous sparing) *


 
What's his name?? I know many of the people in Tennessee... who is he? Drop the name...


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## sifu Adams (Dec 22, 2004)

I disagree.  I think with the flow of the forms that we do you can be consistant in the system the 86 forms gives me more information and ways of fighting than any other style I have seen. if I have 300 ways to attack and you have only 2-3 what happens if the three you use don't work?   If you watch football they don't run the same play over and over or even run the 4-5 plays over and over.  they have all differnt ways depending on how the defence is set up.  they don't pass on every play because the QB has a good arm.  they have so many plays with hopes that they can confuse the defence and keep them wondering what they are going to do next.  This is the way we fight.  we change and change and change so our oppont dose not know what we are going to do next.  I can fight you 2-3-4 times or more and never fight the same way.   I think what everyone is missing is the ability to change is the heart of the system. That is why we do well in sparing, we can change with out notice.  just when  I convince you I am going to kick low I kick high ect.    the anamials in the art teach you this.  the ground dragon teachs you to attack on the ground with legs and hands.  it teaches you  locks, take downs, breaks and evading movements from your back.  not a place I wont to be but I can recover quickly or use it to a advange if I have to.  I may not be a expert in every style and I have never made that claim, the Tai Pang bird is what we do that is  the Main style on master Hiang side is.   Many of the students and instuctors I see on this sight has trained in 3-4-5 differnt styles why?  how many have you trained in and why did you change?  Not everyone but most train in diffent styles becuase they needed work in a differnt area of sparing.  I think this is where the SD system uses the differnt forms.


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## RHD (Dec 22, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> I disagree.  I think with the flow of the forms that we do you can be consistant in the system the 86 forms gives me more information and ways of fighting than any other style I have seen. if I have 300 ways to attack and you have only 2-3 what happens if the three you use don't work?   If you watch football they don't run the same play over and over or even run the 4-5 plays over and over.  they have all differnt ways depending on how the defence is set up.  they don't pass on every play because the QB has a good arm.  they have so many plays with hopes that they can confuse the defence and keep them wondering what they are going to do next.  This is the way we fight.  we change and change and change so our oppont dose not know what we are going to do next.  I can fight you 2-3-4 times or more and never fight the same way.   I think what everyone is missing is the ability to change is the heart of the system. That is why we do well in sparing, we can change with out notice.  just when  I convince you I am going to kick low I kick high ect.    the anamials in the art teach you this.  the ground dragon teachs you to attack on the ground with legs and hands.  it teaches you  locks, take downs, breaks and evading movements from your back.  not a place I wont to be but I can recover quickly or use it to a advange if I have to.  I may not be a expert in every style and I have never made that claim, the Tai Pang bird is what we do that is  the Main style on master Hiang side is.   Many of the students and instuctors I see on this sight has trained in 3-4-5 differnt styles why?  how many have you trained in and why did you change?  Not everyone but most train in diffent styles becuase they needed work in a differnt area of sparing.  I think this is where the SD system uses the differnt forms.



*You are totally misunderstanding what we are saying.*



			
				sifu adams said:
			
		

> if I have 300 ways to attack and you have only 2-3 what happens if the three you use don't work?



We are not talking about numbers of techniques.  If you think forms are about the techniques within them, then you are definately not CMA.  The forms of a system, while they contain technique, are all about strategies and concepts.  




			
				sifu adams said:
			
		

> If you watch football they don't run the same play over and over or even run the 4-5 plays over and over.  they have all differnt ways depending on how the defence is set up.



*Ugggggggggghhh!!!!!! 

Each style has it's own methods for dealing with different kinds of attacks. 

You don't have to switch styles to deal with different opponents.  

You don't have to go mantis-monkey-tai bird-tiger-hsing yi because you are facing different attacks or fighting styles.  You simply need to know one style and how it works against those things.  

Why is that so hard to understand?*

Mike


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## sifu Adams (Dec 22, 2004)

lets slow down.  (and calm down) Now I am asking you some questions not to make you mad but to make you think.  I understand what you are saying about one style is the best.  you are saying you can defend from anything anyone does by using your style and you dont have to change anything you do because you can defend from anything I throw at you.  (per say)  What am I going to throw at you? What move am I going to do first?  My style is SD what am I going to use?  My style is Mantis what am I going to do?  my style is tiger what am I going to do?

think about this I would like to hear what your approch to each question would be using your style.  

Now I have a bigger question? if you do not have the tech in your forms what art you doing with them.  maybe that is why we don't see eye to eye on this.  when I do a form I am fighting. (shadow boxing) If it is the Mantis I am thinking of the way the mantis attacks,  fast, hard, pulls everything in, pinpointed pressure point stikes.  one move in our mantis you hit with one hand (mantis hand) over (to pressure point beside nose) you hit striat ( to the pressure point third vertabray down on the chest) you hook with the back of the forarm and strike the temple.  I break the timing and do it hard fast and with reason.  this is just one example of one form within the SD system every part of my forms this is my mind set.  What are you thinking when you go throgh your forms?  are you thinking I look like a mantis?  or hit, hit, pull, hit with no meaning?  You will have to fill me in on what your forms are like.  If your tech. don't come out of the forms where do they come form. I thought the monks used the forms to help remember the tech they got from the anamials.  Help me understand this.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 22, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> lets slow down. (and calm down) Now I am asking you some questions not to make you mad but to make you think. I understand what you are saying about one style is the best. you are saying you can defend from anything anyone does by using your style and you dont have to change anything you do because you can defend from anything I throw at you. (per say) What am I going to throw at you? What move am I going to do first? My style is SD what am I going to use? My style is Mantis what am I going to do? my style is tiger what am I going to do?


  I can answer that one from my experience. It matters not. I dont know what youre going to throw first, and if you think you can know that, youre sadly mistaken. Also, if you think it matters what you throw first, your sadly mistaken. Why on earth would it matter what your first technique is? I'm still going to defend, regardless of what your attack may be, I may do different techniques, but it will all be mantis, I guarantee you that much.

 7sm


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## RHD (Dec 22, 2004)

Sifu Adams,

In forms there are techniques.  They are only one of many layers.  The techniques are there to be extracted, drilled solo and with training partners in a variety of gradients.  But also there is footwork, which is key.  The footwork of the system is extremely important, and usually in CMA the forms are one of if not _the_ way to transmit it on a rudimentary level.  Also, there are repetitive bridging patterns.  Also, there is a lot of conditioning built into Hung Gar forms.  Also there are a lot of breathing patterns energy delivery concepts in the forms. Also there is a lot of pressure point mapping and strategical concepts "written" into them.   It baffles me that a person can even begin to scratch the surface of 86 forms within a lifetime.

I don't do my forms like prearranged shadow boxing.  When I shadow box, I shadow box or train combinations that may or may not be taken directly from forms.

As to what to do against different attacks...
Well in Hung Gar (my understanding of it) it is to Bridge,Control, and Strike ( which means hit, kick, ram, lock, throw, etc...).  We us solid footwork using angles and rootedness to off balance the opponent along with various methods of bridging at medium to close range, with the intent to control by jamming, sticking, directing, at various key anatomical points (such as the elbow for instance) , and then launch the attack whatever it may be.  This process can be played out in myriad ways, but the main strategy is the same.

A few of the mainstays of this method are:
If the opponent doesn't want to commit, we use "hard bridging" to cause pain and injury to thier weapons.  Then control from there and strike with lots of forward motion through the weak point of the opponent's stance.  This is true whether on the offensive or defensive.

If the opponent comes in hard and heavy, we use "soft bridging" to off balance and control.  Then strike.  There may be a brief retreat here, but then it's right back into forward motion through the weak point of the opponent's stance.

To attack, most often we will create a bridge that clears or completely bypasses and controls the guard position of our opponent, and then strike.  Most often this means both hands are working togther.

We drill against as many different attacks as possible, and spar whenever possible with whatever stylists are available.

So really, I don't care what's being thrown at me...I've trained to bridge it, control it, and launch my counter.  If this doesn't work, it's time for more training and practice, not time to switch styles.  

As far as techniques go, again the bridging, footwork, and other strategies are paramount, but a rule of thumb is to use the five element punches to "soften" our target.  Finish off or dominate a weaker opponent with tiger techniques.  Use crane against a larger/stronger opponent in a more defensive mode...Always keeping in mind that it's the attributes and not the techniques or handshapes themselves that make it all work.  It's basically a yin/yang principle played out on many levels.

What we don't do is:

*Kick above our own waist.  
*Block for the sake of blocking unless it's a last resort (bridging is a very active process that's part of my attack whether I'm on offense or defense)
*Retreat incessantly, bounce around on the balls of the feet, or fight as if walking a balance beam in a straight line back and forth.
*Break contact once a bridge is established unless forced to or it's necessary for defensive reasons.
*Care what style we're up against.  If we have to hunt them down...fine.  If they come to us...even better.


Anyway, hope that answers some of your questions.

Mike


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## sifu Adams (Dec 23, 2004)

RHD,  Ok I was looking for some things when I ask the questions.  

you said

"*Finish off or dominate a weaker opponent with tiger techniques. Use crane against a larger/stronger opponent in a more defensive mode." *

is that two diffent systems?  that sounds like what I was saying before about how I use my forms.  

*"We us solid footwork using angles and rootedness to off balance the opponent along with various methods of bridging at medium to close range, with the intent to control by jamming, sticking, directing, at various key anatomical points (such as the elbow for instance) , and then launch the attack whatever it may be."*

we do this as well.  the footwork in the birds is used to move around the opponents as well as uprooting and causing your opponent to shift there weight as we apply the move. the tech. we have in the form teach us to use our body weight as part of the strike.  most of the time when we apply a block it is in combantion with a strike.  

*"We drill against as many different attacks as possible, and spar whenever possible with whatever stylists are available"*

we do this as well but we can do it within our own school because we all like are diffent ways of fighting.  Some like to kick, some like to punch, some like to ground fight, some like to throw, some like to fight inside, some like to fight from a distance.  

*What we don't do is:

*Kick above our own waist. 
*Block for the sake of blocking unless it's a last resort (bridging is a very active process that's part of my attack whether I'm on offense or defense)
*Retreat incessantly, bounce around on the balls of the feet, or fight as if walking a balance beam in a straight line back and forth.
*Break contact once a bridge is established unless forced to or it's necessary for defensive reasons.
*Care what style we're up against. If we have to hunt them down...fine. If they come to us...even better.
*
other than kicking above the waist we don't do any of this eather.  Is this what makes you kung fu?  

7* I was looking for that answer.  we don't think you could guess what the opponent is going to do.  we react.  but they way this was leading I thought RHD would give me a speific block or strike for a punch or style.  

I think everyone's lack of training in the SD style is why you don't see the meaning behind it.  I will also say that many of the SD students that talk on the the sights like MT lack the experiance that is need to argue the point.  however I do believe if given the chance I could open some eyes on how effective the forms are and how we use them if you or anyone could take the time to spend one day with me training, not to learn the art but just the understanding.  i think you would find that it is a shaolin art of kung fu.  I know everyone does not have that oppertuity. but my gym is always open if you are in the Dayton Ohio area.  When I say I can do 86 forms i am not talking about just doing them I understand them that is what I would have to show.   I also think that some of Sin the's clams like he knows 900 kata leaves a bad tast with everyone.  to me 200 is impressive and hard for anyone to believe.  when they push is to 900 everyone shoots it down and rightfully so.  But I havn't seen anyone who can say it is NOT shaolin. they say it's not complete, certain forms don't look like theres, but nothing that states that it is not form shoalin.


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## RHD (Dec 23, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> RHD,  Ok I was looking for some things when I ask the questions.
> 
> you said
> 
> ...




Mike


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Dec 23, 2004)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> *Randy Strausbaugh* I see you are from Ohio I am located just south of dayton I would invite you down to my school to see the way we teach the are and to show you my 86 forms.  I am not just talking I can back them up and am willing to show you any of them.  I can also show you how they work for fighting as well.  This goes out to anyone If your forms are not showing you how to fight why are you doing them?  All my fighting tech. comes out of my "Shaolin Do" forms.


Sorry it took a while to get back to you, but I've been offline the past few days (seasonal stuff).  Thank you for the invite, but having re-read my original post, I believe that you have mistaken it for someone else's.  My post did not address the number of forms you practice/teach or whether or not you can glean fighting techniques from them.  Instead, I spoke of the Shaolin-do group which I saw having dropped the "do" and using "T" shirts instead of gis and belts.  Unless, of course, you are that guy I met years ago who wanted to mix Wing Chun with Taekwondo.


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 23, 2004)

some people cant seem to get behind the whole concepts and theories of martial arts. ive got 500 techniques.....ive got 3000.
thats a lot of bull. 
techniques dont mean squat. if you're using techniques for self defense, you might as well be rhyming off tongue twisters or dirty limericks.
you can learn one form....and take from that form all the theory and conceptual fighting principles you need. tai chi ring a bell?
switching from one style to another makes about as much sense as training in 10 different arts at one time.....you might learn a lot of cool tricks and neato forms....but the one thing you're not doing is understanding the core principles of movement.
the point of forms, from my point of view, is study of movement.
you can flap your arms like a bird......but if you dont leanr the principle behind it, you're just flapping your arms trying to hit someone.
if 7* is thoroughly versed in his mantis......you could know 10,000 forms but not know how or what they are teaching you....you're just acting. his knowledge of concept and understanding of movement will defeat you. and this is true of any martial artist.
if a martial ARTIST (and i am using this term in the truest sense of the word) understands movement and motion.......it doesnt matter how much you dance around, because he could beat you while pretending to brush his hair, or eating a ham sandwich.

shawn


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## clfsean (Dec 23, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> ...really cool post...


*Golf Clap Ensues* Good post... well done... *Golf Clap Contiuing*


....AND....

I still wanna know who the guy was that went to Greece from Tennessee...


----------



## The Kai (Dec 23, 2004)

With 6 months training.......



All your forms and techniques should revolve around the principles.  even principle based "styles"  need to define thier principles to stay on track
Todd


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## Black Tiger Fist (Dec 25, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Well, first let me clarify what I meant by "change". When you say your able to "change" to fit the situation your speaking of chaning styles which also inplies a changing of intent, concept, and principle. When I said I can "change" within mantis, I'm only chaning a techniques within the mantis system which holds to the same intent, concepts, and principles. If you were to kep me at 3 or 4 steps, you wouldn't be able to touch me since 3 or 4 steps would most deffinitely be out of anyones reach. I could just run if I needed to. However, your assuming that because you train to be able to keep people "out" that you can do it 100% of the time. Dont most people train to not get hit? Your still going to get hit in a fight aren't you?
> 
> My problem is that you can't possibly know or be able to use all of the techinques and concepts of the mantis system. See, just touchingon the mantis system doesn't mean you can fight the way a mantis fighter would. You may know a mantis set or a few mantis techniques but its impossible for you to know the true concepts and principles behind mantis kung fu by just touching on the mantis for a month or so in your training.
> 
> 7sm


Great Post!!!




			
				 Sifu Adams said:
			
		

> *I believe that you could take one or two forms and break them down and do just as good as the 86.*




*Most Gtrandmastetrs and Masters did just that ,although they knew the entire list of forms within their style ,they usually mastered just 1 or 2.*


*jeff*


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## InvisibleFist (Jan 5, 2005)

When I was shopping for schools I visited a Cinese Shaolin center in california.  I chose not to attend there (there was a world class Hung Gar school a mile from my house), but they had my respect.  They train HARD.  

Saying they are not CMA is just silly.  There may be some descrepencies with their history, but they clearly teaching chinese movements and teaching them well.  

The whole idea of "Styles" being a descreet school distinct from all the others. is really more of a japanese concept than a Chinese one. Every Chinese master I've met knows dozens of forms.  Because forms are so central to CMA, its possible to add supplementary forms for various reasons. 

Hung gar is a perfect example.  There are four "pillar forms" that make up the "core" of the style.  But diferent lineages bring in different forms from elsewhere.  Wing Lam's lineage added the Northern Butterfly palm form.  Buck Sam Kong added Choy Li Fut to the Hung Gar curriculum.  

Really the various "styles" of kung fu have more similarities than differences.  They may have "singnature" techniques (the mantis hand, Hung Gar's twelve bridges.) Most of them use the same stances and the same set of basics.  When you have strong basics, adding more forms is easy.


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## sifu Adams (Jan 6, 2005)

InvisibleFist great reply.  I agree every form I have has a horse stance.  And I can show you all the hands of the southern mantis in the tai pang birds


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## brothershaw (Feb 6, 2005)

The main point is that everybody generally agrees that it takes at least a few years steady pracitice to become comfortable and competent in any one style.Doesnt matter what it is. 
Even if you lump some things in groups  ( judo, sambo, bjj) , (karate, tae kwon do), ( southern chinese wing chun, mantis, bai mei) jumping around within a group can be hard much less training arts that have differnt ways of using the body, different footwork, and hand positions. 
So at best Shaolin Do to me sounds like either a mma or some kind of JKD. 
As long as it works cool. However the handful of people who i have met who were really exceptional tended to have put in a solid 10-20 years of training in primarily just one thing,soup to nuts.
From my own personal experience trying to learn differnent "stlyes" at once really slows down your progress at least in the first couple of years especially if the body mechanics are not similiar.


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## InvisibleFist (Feb 27, 2005)

Its not JKD or MMA... its KUNG FU. While there are a wide variety of forms they all depend on the same basics. Its just got a wider cirriculum than most kung fu schools. 

 In China it is very common for a school to have a curriculum that encompasses more than one style...generally the student will learn the theory of several forms, and make one or two his speciality. I repeat, the idea of Styles being encapsulated into specific schools is more Japanese than Chinese.  The Chin Woo Association was a project very much like Shaolin do...they established a cirriculum that was the common ground of all kung fu, and allowed its teachers to teach the various local specialities.  



> much less training arts that have differnt ways of using the body, different footwork, and hand positions.


 Thats the thing, the different forms aren't alll that different.  Kung fu looks pretty much like kung fu...same footwork, same hand positions, with a few minute differences.  Its a lot like cooking...a bechamel sauce is different than a veloute, but you use the same tools (Sausepan and wire whisk) and the same techniques to make them.


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## clfsean (Feb 28, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Its not JKD or MMA... its KUNG FU. While there are a wide variety of forms they all depend on the same basics. Its just got a wider cirriculum than most kung fu schools.


No... actually it's closer to Japanese karate with some misunderstood Chinese techniquese in it at this point. It may have been kung fu at one time, but that time has passed.



			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> In China it is very common for a school to have a curriculum that encompasses more than one style...generally the student will learn the theory of several forms, and make one or two his speciality. I repeat, the idea of Styles being encapsulated into specific schools is more Japanese than Chinese. The Chin Woo Association was a project very much like Shaolin do...they established a cirriculum that was the common ground of all kung fu, and allowed its teachers to teach the various local specialities.


In China it depends on the school you visit/study at. I've been to a major modern wushu school where everything in the modern curriculum was taught as well as one or two related traditional styles. I've been to two major traditional schools as well where only one style was taught since that's what the schools were set up for. It just depends on where you go & what you're looking for.

From www.jingmo.org website....



			
				jingmo.org said:
			
		

> Towards the end of the Ching Dynasty, China was weak and politically confused. The country was suffering from one natural disaster after another on top of oppression. The Chinese people were regarded as invalids because of the miserable economic conditions. The idea behind starting a center for martial arts was to help lift the peoples feeling as Invalids of Asia. Ching Wu (Jing Mo)Association was founded in 1909 by Huo Yuan Chia with the aim of cultivating sagacity, benevolence and courage and improving the health of the people. With the failure of the Boxer Rebellion in 1900, the reputation of Chinese martial arts among the populace had fallen to its lowest point since the time when the Chinese martial arts was at the Shao Lin Monastery in the late 1400s. From 1909 to 1939, the Ching Wu (Jing Mo) Physical Cultural Association was able to restore the populace faith and respect for Chinese Martial Arts.





			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Thats the thing, the different forms aren't alll that different. Kung fu looks pretty much like kung fu...same footwork, same hand positions, with a few minute differences. Its a lot like cooking...a bechamel sauce is different than a veloute, but you use the same tools (Sausepan and wire whisk) and the same techniques to make them.


Yeah but bad kung fu is still bad kung fu. Lack of understanding techniques & principles doesn't make up for a billion forms, shakey history & looking more like something else than what it's supposed to look like.


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## InvisibleFist (Feb 28, 2005)

> No... actually it's closer to Japanese karate with some misunderstood Chinese techniquese in it at this point. It may have been kung fu at one time, but that time has passed.


 Sean, you're just wrong here.  It's NOT Japanese karate, it doesn't look anything like Japanese Karate.  Its clearly kung fu.  It may in fact be badly performed kung fu, but its still kung fu.  The only thing that looks japanese about it are the uniforms.


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## clfsean (Feb 28, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Sean, you're just wrong here. It's NOT Japanese karate, it doesn't look anything like Japanese Karate. Its clearly kung fu. It may in fact be badly performed kung fu, but its still kung fu. The only thing that looks japanese about it are the uniforms.


Nope... 'fraid not. However if you'll re-read what I said which was... 



			
				me said:
			
		

> No... actually it's *closer* to Japanese karate with some misunderstood Chinese techniquese in it at this point. It may have been kung fu at one time, but that time has passed.


... I added the bolding for the quote ...

In delivery of techniques, power generation & expression... it could be confused quite easily with a "X" flavor of Karate. Not saying it's bad for that (karate), but it's not what it says it is (CMA) & that is bad.


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## brothershaw (Feb 28, 2005)

There are differences from one style to the next in cma, yes they may all use the horse stance , but but wing chun isnt northern mantis, wing chun isnt hung gar and hungar isnt bai mei. Yes a person can know forms and imitate the movements but the energy and the philosphy from one style to the next is different. Knowing a form from observation and being taught how it "feels" are 2 different things.


Even in karate which on the surface looks the same their are still differences
goju isnt shorin ryu which isnt shotokan which isnt kyokushin.
I have bounced around alittle but have stuck to my main thing and theres a big difference between imitating someone because you have some coordination compared to someone who actually knows the ins and outs.


----------



## InvisibleFist (Mar 1, 2005)

Not sure how we're going to settle this, we are getting dangerously close to "yes it is" -- "no it isn't".  

 I was going to post a link to the videos at http://www.shaolincenter.com/ but they've taken them down.  Obviously they got tired of people ridiculing their technique. 

 A lot of southern styles (including Hung Gar) have basics which are indistinguishable (to the untrained eye) from Karate. 

 Sean, what experience do you have with the Shaolin do people?  I took their introductory offer, so I've actually trained with them (only two classes, but enough to get a good idea of what goes on.)  The first thing they start you with is 18 fists of lohan.


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## clfsean (Mar 1, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Not sure how we're going to settle this, we are getting dangerously close to "yes it is" -- "no it isn't".


Yeah kinda... 



			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> I was going to post a link to the videos at http://www.shaolincenter.com/ but they've taken them down. Obviously they got tired of people ridiculing their technique.


Well the majority of that has to do with them redesigning their website & changing the focus of it. I'm sure they got tired of the flack they caught to be sure considering they were the only school in the entire organization to post videos. Some of the worst bashing came from other schools within the organization that never put videos up.



			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> A lot of southern styles (including Hung Gar) have basics which are indistinguishable (to the untrained eye) from Karate.


To a degree yes. If you've ever seen Yongchun White Crane, it's almost identical to Goju-ryu. 



			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Sean, what experience do you have with the Shaolin do people? I took their introductory offer, so I've actually trained with them (only two classes, but enough to get a good idea of what goes on.) The first thing they start you with is 18 fists of lohan.


Oh a wee bit more than 2 lessons it's safe to say. Where did you happen to take these two lessons? Also... since you're calling me by my name, what's yours? Quid pro quo for more info...


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## The Kai (Mar 1, 2005)

Actually I don't think it is close to Karate at all. I guy standing there moving his arms or legs around is not karate.  If you say well there are no signatures of power from Kung fu, don't assume therefore that it must them be Karate. - Cuz it moves nothing like Karate should


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## pekho (Mar 1, 2005)

I don't see what the problem is.  Within any style it is common for there to be several sub-styles.  So Shaolin five animals style has the five sub-styles.  A true master can build a school based on techniques from different schools without it all becoming hand waving.  A person who lacks understanding of even one small style cannot make a school that is anything more than hand waving.  The advantage to having different styles within a style is the ability to change from one to another.  A crane block and strike is similar to a tiger block and strike, but the energies are very different.  The differences in energy make it very useful to have several different styles to choose from while sparring.  Changing styles and energy gives one an advantage over someone limited to a single style and energy.  I also agree that to get anywhere, it is necessary to stay with a single school for ten-twenty years, but that does not preclude sub-styles within a school.  

Josh


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## 7starmantis (Mar 1, 2005)

pekho said:
			
		

> I don't see what the problem is. Within any style it is common for there to be several sub-styles. So Shaolin five animals style has the five sub-styles. A true master can build a school based on techniques from different schools without it all becoming hand waving. A person who lacks understanding of even one small style cannot make a school that is anything more than hand waving. The advantage to having different styles within a style is the ability to change from one to another. A crane block and strike is similar to a tiger block and strike, but the energies are very different. The differences in energy make it very useful to have several different styles to choose from while sparring. Changing styles and energy gives one an advantage over someone limited to a single style and energy. I also agree that to get anywhere, it is necessary to stay with a single school for ten-twenty years, but that does not preclude sub-styles within a school.
> 
> Josh


 I'm not sure what you mean about every style having sub-styles? I would consider each style as a "style" of its own, not a sub-style. I mean, take mantis for example, what is it a sub-style of, or what are its sub-styles? I think you may be using the word "styles" to mean techniues per se in your example about fighting. I just dont see the need to change from one style to another durign a fight. 

 I think your making the school of higher important when saying you need to stay at the school for 10 or 20 years. What about the school is so important? Is it the teacher? The familiarity of the building? The school is of little importance. If its not the style that is important at the school, what is? My school teaches 7* mantis, no other "sub-styles". Does that mean I should seek out other schools to train with? I dont think so, why would I need another style if I can truly use the one I study?

  7sm


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## sifu Adams (Mar 1, 2005)

I am back, shift change messed everything up.  



where did Karate, TKD, ect...come from?  was it wushu, 7* mantis, shaolin, kung fu?  I thought it came from the the  kung fu styles.  If so why don't they look like the form you do?  why do they kick high? Punch hard? If they trace their roots to the old kung fu styles befor the 5 ancetors then why do they look so diffenent that the CMA does now?  Maybe Shoalin do don't look like Karate, Maybe Karate looks like Shaolin do?


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## The Kai (Mar 1, 2005)

Nope


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 1, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> To a degree yes. If you've ever seen Yongchun White Crane, it's almost identical to Goju-ryu.
> 
> 
> Oh a wee bit more than 2 lessons it's safe to say. Where did you happen to take these two lessons? Also... since you're calling me by my name, what's yours? Quid pro quo for more info...


 I'm using your name, cause its in your handle.  My name's Zack for what its worth.  

 The school I visited is not exactly Shaolin Do, its a "Chinese Shaolin Center"  but still part of the Sin The lineage.


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## TaiChiTJ (Mar 1, 2005)

where did Karate, TKD, ect...come from? was it wushu, 7* mantis, shaolin, kung fu? I thought it came from the the kung fu styles. 


My understanding is that all Karate came from Okinawa, and they developed it in association with masters from China. Here is a quote I found online:

"Historically, Okinawa was an independent kingdom, but it was strongly influenced by Chinese culture. Okinawa established a tributary relationship with China, which allowed Okinawan martial artists to study in China (and to train with Chinese martial artists visiting Okinawa). 

There were originally three styles of Okinawa-te, named for the towns where they were located: Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. Shotokan karate is a modern Japanese style, descended from these traditional Okinawan styles. "

My understanding is that Japan invaded Okinawa, and as part of that process they became aware of Karate and started practicing it. Then later Korea developed Tae Kwon Do from Japanese Karate. 

But it all comes from China, where the Shaolin temple and other temples were already established years before. It was however, further developed by Okinawans. 

This is the link where that quote above comes from: 
http://www.karatedojo.com/history/history.htm

If you want to see an Okinawan master moving, do a search on this site for Oyata, his interpretation of karate forms include grappling, throwing, and I think he was the inspiration for the point striking work George Dillman is doing. Dillman has furthered developed it, however I think his first exposure to the idea came from Master Seishu Oyata. He is an awesome martial artist and lives in Missouri, I think.


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## clfsean (Mar 1, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> I'm using your name, cause its in your handle. My name's Zack for what its worth.
> 
> The school I visited is not exactly Shaolin Do, its a "Chinese Shaolin Center" but still part of the Sin The lineage.


Well Zack no reason to be snippy about it. Simple question, simple answer, no clouds.

A Chinese Shaolin Center is exactly Shaolin Do. There are a few of those around. Were they out west or in Ga? What you were exposed to were their "Lohan Short Forms".. i.e. basics. No Lohan Kung fu... no "Louhan Shibashou"... nothing like that. Moving basic drills that's all. Normally done much more rigid in nature than anything you'd find in Northern & most Southern kung fu as well.


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## clfsean (Mar 1, 2005)

If you want to see the origins of Japanese Karate... look to Okinawa. 

If you want to see the origins of Okinawan Karate... look to Fujian province & Ngo Cho Kuen, Tai Chor Kuen, Yong Chun Bai He or Fuzhou Bai He. There's plenty of video on the Net to see what I mean.

Don't look to Nothern Shaolin... Totally different movement theories & structures than Southern MA & to me IMHO most Okinawan Karate bears a strong resemblance to Southern Shorthand & Longhand stuff.


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## brothershaw (Mar 1, 2005)

karate came from china to okinawa to japan 

Just based on the things I have read,experienced, and been told some of the Shaolin-DO stuff sounds " interesting". 
If I knocked Shaolin Do in previous posts that was sort of out of line.Anybody can knock anybodys school or teacher without having actually experienced the teacher or school first hand.

Now on the other hand a student of ANY school needs to do thier own research, which means reading different books, unfortunately checking stuff on the internet, and also intereacting with people from other schools, and styles.  Otherwise you can run the risk of blindly taking what is passed on to you as the gospel when it isnt, and that could happen in any style or school.

If I am ever in a state with a shaolin do school I will check it out.


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 1, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Well Zack no reason to be snippy about it. Simple question, simple answer, no clouds.
> 
> A Chinese Shaolin Center is exactly Shaolin Do. There are a few of those around. Were they out west or in Ga? What you were exposed to were their "Lohan Short Forms".. i.e. basics. No Lohan Kung fu... no "Louhan Shibashou"... nothing like that. Moving basic drills that's all. Normally done much more rigid in nature than anything you'd find in Northern & most Southern kung fu as well.


No snippyness intended, mate.   

This was in Northridge CA,  a  Los Angeles suburb.  

So you actually studied with them for a while?


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## clfsean (Mar 2, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> No snippyness intended, mate.


Cool cool... that's the bad thing about the Net... you can't hear inflection in written form.



			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> This was in Northridge CA, a Los Angeles suburb.
> 
> So you actually studied with them for a while?


Gotcha... A Soards school. 

Yeah I was with them about 5 years. Met a lot of really good people with the majority of them making SD work & work well with little to no effort. I still have many friends & one of my best friends involved with SD & they're happy & I dig it for them. But I was approaching some material that wasn't going to agree with my body & some of the training methods were already taking a toll on me. So I left school & moved on. 

My problem was the packaging & presentation of it. It's called kung fu & does have several legit kungfu styles/systems/forms contained in it. However about 95% of the people in SD don't play it with CMA foundations & practices. Those 5% that do are few & far between with the rest of the organization hating because of it yet due to politics won't look at how or why their training changed to try to reintroduce the CMA methods to it. 

Said it before & I'll say it again... it was CMA at some point. That point is mostly long gone.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Mar 2, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Cool cool... that's the bad thing about the Net... you can't hear inflection in written form.
> 
> Gotcha... A Soards school.
> 
> ...


 
I haven't followed this thread much lately ,but have to agree with pretty much everything Sean has said. Shaolin- Do might have once favored CMA or come from CMA ,but those days are long gone now. It looks,moves,and acts alot like karate now.

There are some southern china styles that look like karate to a degree but not as much as Shaolin-Do.

jeff


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 2, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Cool cool... that's the bad thing about the Net... you can't hear inflection in written form.
> 
> Gotcha... A Soards school.


Yes, the Soards.  



> Yeah I was with them about 5 years. Met a lot of really good people with the majority of them making SD work & work well with little to no effort. I still have many friends & one of my best friends involved with SD & they're happy & I dig it for them. But I was approaching some material that wasn't going to agree with my body & some of the training methods were already taking a toll on me. So I left school & moved on.


I see.  In that case I will bow to your opinion, since you obviously have a lot more experience with them.  

I was under the impression that the Shaolin-do haters were simply out to get them because of a few bad videos (and the hung kuen on that site was REALLY bad) and their Japanese uniforms.  

How long have you been with CLF now?


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## clfsean (Mar 2, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Yes, the Soards.
> 
> 
> I see. In that case I will bow to your opinion, since you obviously have a lot more experience with them.


Nah dude... no bowing needed. Just a little longer in & eyes were always wide open. 



			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that the Shaolin-do haters were simply out to get them because of a few bad videos (and the hung kuen on that site was REALLY bad) and their Japanese uniforms.
> 
> How long have you been with CLF now?


The uniform bit never bothered me much. I've got a set of monk robes I bought at the Wushu Guan at Shaolin. It's reminiscent of a Japanese gi, but to relate the two is a stretch. I personally like Jimmy Woo's (of Kung Fu San Soo) answer to why his people wore a gi to practice... (paraphrasing) "They're cheaper & more available".

Yeah the videos... wasn't exactly "best foot forward" with much of it, but that's as far as I'm going on it. I've seen better performed by SD people, here in Atlanta & a couple of other places.

I've only been playing CLF a year now. But I've got a pretty good background besides SD so I adjust & learn pretty quick.

What are you studying now?


----------



## 7starmantis (Mar 5, 2005)

Anyone got a link to any SD videos for us to check out ourselves?

7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

Yes, and I have visited the local school...


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## 7starmantis (Mar 6, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Yes, and I have visited the local school...


 Ok, care to share them with the rest of us?

 7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

First Note:
It is never my intention to belittle any martial art, martial art organization, instructor, practitioner/people. I am only going to write about my experience(s), or past discussions, and not generally post my opinion. I may post a seemingly "negative" thread or statement. Thus playing a "devils advocate", or "suppose" statement to stimulate a more response from others. Be it, for I tend to enjoy others' viewpoints/opinions, equally, and some cases, better, than mine.


I went and visited the local school. They were hesitant to reveal much. They must have been aware that I had many years of experience. From my past experiences, you can almost "profile" a experienced martial artist. I had decided to join, but they wanted to institute and contractoral agreement. I did not know if that was their normal precedure, but I had told them that I wanted a "trial membership"

Although their lineage is speculative, their teaching mood, curriculum, and structure was the same as any other commercial school.

Their forms were different and the instructors were very polite.

I was not concerned on how they came to be, but how do they benefit their students/practitoners. In what ways, does the teacher and student relationship differ than any other school? 

Although, a interesting school, it wasnt for me. Mainly, I wasn't looking for a "new" or different place to learn. I have so much to learn and do in my current system. I went to explore in such the case on their existence.

On a scale of McDojo 1-6, (McDojo-too make-shift/too commercial/too hyped) (1 being not so good, 6 being great for something to learn), I have to rank them around a 4-5. For what it is worth, if there wasn't a large selection of martial arts in that area, they have the martial concept. And, not to belittle or insult, I beleive there are other martial art schools that have better worth.


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 6, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Nah dude... no bowing needed. Just a little longer in & eyes were always wide open.
> 
> 
> The uniform bit never bothered me much. I've got a set of monk robes I bought at the Wushu Guan at Shaolin. It's reminiscent of a Japanese gi, but to relate the two is a stretch. I personally like Jimmy Woo's (of Kung Fu San Soo) answer to why his people wore a gi to practice... (paraphrasing) "They're cheaper & more available".


 Yeah.  That plus the fact that there's really no such thing as a "Traditional kung fu uniform".  The thing that people wear is just traditonal Chinese clothes...common dress up some time in the fifties (and you can still see it on old men in HK).  The Chinese wushu teams actually train in tracksuits.  

 But when MA was becoming big in the US in the seventies, people expected a cool costume, so if you were teaching kung fu, you either used a gi, or came up with the "kung fu uniform" that they use now. 





> I've only been playing CLF a year now. But I've got a pretty good background besides SD so I adjust & learn pretty quick.
> 
> What are you studying now?


 Hung Gar and CLF.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

_Yeah. That plus the fact that there's really no such thing as a "Traditional kung fu uniform". The thing that people wear is just traditonal Chinese clothes...common dress up some time in the fifties (and you can still see it on old men in HK). The Chinese wushu teams actually train in tracksuits._



And is there no such thing as "Authentic Shaolin Monks." Because of traditional apsects.

_But when MA was becoming big in the US in the seventies, people expected a cool costume, so if you were teaching kung fu, you either used a gi, or came up with the "kung fu uniform" that they use now._ 

Or worked out with old clothes anyway.



_The uniform bit never bothered me much. I've got a set of monk robes I bought at the Wushu Guan at Shaolin._ 
Sure it has botherd or influenced you, why else would someone buy monk's robes?




Here is a interesting link on uniforms:

http://www.spiritualminds.com/articles.asp?articleid=2021


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## clfsean (Mar 6, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> me said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ummm.... maybe because I was there & wanted them???  

Kinda like when people go to NYC or LA or San Fran or London or Rome or where ever the hell they decide to visit & buy something that says "I was here"?? Kinda like I'll buy another Cancun t-shirt in a couple of weeks to add to my collection... :whip:


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Ummm.... maybe because I was there & wanted them???
> 
> Kinda like when people go to NYC or LA or San Fran or London or Rome or where ever the hell they decide to visit & buy something that says "I was here"?? Kinda like I'll buy another Cancun t-shirt in a couple of weeks to add to my collection... :whip:


 
Nah, I mean being bothered by owning them. Perhaps a souvenir. Perhaps they look cool.

per-

_But when MA was becoming big in the US in the seventies, people expected a cool costume, so if you were teaching kung fu, you either used a gi, or came up with the "kung fu uniform" that they use now._


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## 7starmantis (Mar 6, 2005)

ok guys, lets try to stay on topic here, my original question was about videos we could view, evidentally no one has any?

7sm


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## clfsean (Mar 6, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> ok guys, lets try to stay on topic here, my original question was about videos we could view, evidentally no one has any?
> 
> 7sm


Sorry 7*... check http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13 for a video page


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## 7starmantis (Mar 6, 2005)

No problem, thanks for the page. I'll go check them out right now!

7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

Sorry-

And I had responded to the thread formost question of "Anybody ever heard of shaolin-do???"


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 7, 2005)

No techniques on that site, unfortunately.  Just shots of the manual.


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## clfsean (Mar 7, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> No techniques on that site, unfortunately. Just shots of the manual.


But there should be a short clip of Sin The doing something I think on one of the clips...


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 7, 2005)

Yeah, not a whole lot there...some pointy finger stuff, and a few kicks.


----------



## InvisibleFist (Mar 7, 2005)

AH!  

 Here we go:

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=66

 Honestly, CLFsean, the stuff I'm seeing here is obviously Chinese.  Howmany Japanese karate ryu use Daos, Jims, and fans?  And there's a lot of stuff I regonize...tiger claws, dropped twisted stances, and that floor kick from butterfly palm.  Sure looks like CMA to me.


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 7, 2005)

Here's some more:

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=65


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## Eldritch Knight (Mar 7, 2005)

I'll let him answer for himself, but I think what CLFSean was referring to was the philosophy of motion and angular nature of many SLD movements which are more indicative of Japanese hard styles than other TCMA.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 8, 2005)

Eldritch Knight said:
			
		

> I'll let him answer for himself, but I think what CLFSean was referring to was the philosophy of motion and angular nature of many SLD movements which are more indicative of Japanese hard styles than other TCMA.


Good start EK & well put.

If you'll notice not what they do (totally different thread there), but how they do... you'll see what I'm talking about. Watch how they move... watch the body... more importantly on the clips where you can see them, watch their feet. There's no CMA connectivity or continuity. It's broken & choppy at best. 

In CLF or Praying Mantis, I'm constantly changing rythyms. However, what doesn't happen is I don't separate my body into pieces to try to do things, I don't disconnect my body core from my arms & legs & even in broken rythym, I'm always (or at least trying my hardest) connected.


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## j_m (Mar 8, 2005)

I cannot seem ot view or download any of these clips.  Would anyone have any they could post elsewhere for viewing or possibly e-mail me a clip or two.  I'd like to see what all the hub-bub is about :supcool: 


thanks,


jm


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 8, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Good start EK & well put.
> 
> If you'll notice not what they do (totally different thread there), but how they do... you'll see what I'm talking about. Watch how they move... watch the body... more importantly on the clips where you can see them, watch their feet. There's no CMA connectivity or continuity. It's broken & choppy at best.
> 
> In CLF or Praying Mantis, I'm constantly changing rythyms. However, what doesn't happen is I don't separate my body into pieces to try to do things, I don't disconnect my body core from my arms & legs & even in broken rythym, I'm always (or at least trying my hardest) connected.


 So would you say that it's CMA forms, but with Okinawan movement ideas?  
 I can see what you mean about the choppiness.   I would tend to chalk that up to lack of practice in the forms.  The guys on this site are much better than the one we critiqued last time, but still, they don't seem to have achieved the kind of effortless action that you see from real kung-fu players.  That I would ascribe to too many forms. 

 Incidentally, thats one of the things I found confusing about CLF.  Hung Gar is played a lot like Karate, really.  Each movement has a beginning and an end.  (Kiu sau, punch).  In CLF, every movement is flowing into another one.  It makes it damn near impossible to take notes.


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## clfsean (Mar 9, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> So would you say that it's CMA forms, but with Okinawan movement ideas?


Nah... like I said that's a different thread.  There a couple of Chinese systems/styles contained in the curriculum, but lots of it I question. 



			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> I can see what you mean about the choppiness. I would tend to chalk that up to lack of practice in the forms. The guys on this site are much better than the one we critiqued last time, but still, they don't seem to have achieved the kind of effortless action that you see from real kung-fu players. That I would ascribe to too many forms.


Ummm... that's not lack of practice. Those people in the videos you saw have generally 3 or more years of training in. That's how they train... 



			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Incidentally, thats one of the things I found confusing about CLF. Hung Gar is played a lot like Karate, really. Each movement has a beginning and an end. (Kiu sau, punch). In CLF, every movement is flowing into another one. It makes it damn near impossible to take notes.


True, but Hung Ga contains & uses the continual flow & connection with the body. Sure there are stops like say after your description of kiu sau ping choy. But that's not to say you can or will or do in set practice & drilling. That's just can option. I've seen Hung Ga played a couple of different ways & those base elements I was talking about were always played & always performed because that's how they trained as a CMA.

Who do you train with? Bucksam Kong? Vernon Reita?


----------



## j_m (Mar 9, 2005)

Well fine.  I found some clips on my own 


http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/clips.htm


You have to download the DivX bundle to view them (or so it says)...  I'll look at a few after a while.



jm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 9, 2005)

But are the Shaolin-Do?


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## Black Tiger Fist (Mar 9, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But are the Shaolin-Do?


 
Yes those vids are Shaolin-Do.

jeff


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## 7starmantis (Mar 9, 2005)

j_m said:
			
		

> Well fine.  I found some clips on my own
> 
> 
> http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/clips.htm
> ...


 I watched the mantis ones and the sparring ones. I dont have the words. I saw nothing in the mantis clips that looked like mantis, let alone CMA. Why are the forms not used in the sparring? I saw nothing from any of the forms used in the sparring clips. Why are they sparring with their hands on thier knees? I dont know what to say. Are these basically highly skilled SD players? Is this accepted SD clips? I'm really speachless and thats not normal for me.


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 9, 2005)

While we're on the subject, the west coasts equivalent is Kung Fu San Soo.  

 Here's some vids:

http://www.easthillskungfu.com/main.htm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 10, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I watched the mantis ones and the sparring ones. I dont have the words. I saw nothing in the mantis clips that looked like mantis, let alone CMA. Why are the forms not used in the sparring? I saw nothing from any of the forms used in the sparring clips. Why are they sparring with their hands on thier knees? I dont know what to say. Are these basically highly skilled SD players? Is this accepted SD clips? I'm really speachless and thats not normal for me.


Not all mantis forms and techniques actually capture/imitate the insect.
For instance, there is a move (although a series-the complete series is condodered a move) in Chat Sing Tohng Lohng, called Baahk Yuhn Cheut Duhng...._lit-White Ape Exits_. It looks like an "ape tactic" in Mantis Style.

There are so many sub-syles, who can state for sure if it is mantis or not?

The mantis and humans are of different structure. Any tactic that is merciless, can be considered mantis.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Not all mantis forms and techniques actually capture/imitate the insect.
> For instance, there is a move (although a series-the complete series is condodered a move) in Chat Sing Tohng Lohng, called Baahk Yuhn Cheut Duhng...._lit-White Ape Exits_. It looks like an "ape tactic" in Mantis Style.
> 
> There are so many sub-syles, who can state for sure if it is mantis or not?
> ...


 You assume I'm saying that the form didn't look like mantis because it didn't look like the mantis insect? You should really not make such large assumptions. I actually know the form you are talking about and yes, mantis contains much "monkey" footwork, that is very well known. 

 How many "sub-styles" of mantis do you believe there are? So you are saying that because there is so much in mantis no one can say what is or is not mantis? Thats ridiculous. There are principles and yes, even certain techniques that are in the mantis system that if broken can pretty much exclude something from being from the mantis system. I dont even really understand how you could even truly believe that. If that was correct, anything youdo with your arms or legs would be mantis kung fu. 

 Its ridiculous to say that anything considered merciless could be considered mantis. I haven't the words to even retort to that. What in the world would make you post something like that? :idunno:

   7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 10, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> You assume I'm saying that the form didn't look like mantis because it didn't look like the mantis insect? You should really not make such large assumptions.


No. I am saying that everything in a form doesn't have to look like what it impersonates. Face it, the insect has forearms designed by nature way different than humans. Trapping in "human mantis" are very simular in other CMA's.





> How many "sub-styles" of mantis do you believe there are? So you are saying that because there is so much in mantis no one can say what is or is not mantis?


No, I am saying that the foundations and traditions of a system get changed as it is "passed down". Their own version or interpretation. However, practitioners/generations of those have a tendancy to "add" or "subtract" info.




> If that was correct, anything you do with your arms or legs would be mantis kung fu.


Come on, how many tactics have you seen in other arts that mantis has? 





> Its ridiculous to say that anything considered merciless could be considered mantis. I haven't the words to even retort to that. What in the world would make you post something like that?


Hmmn,, if one is to imitate the life-form, then the actual life-form is merciless.


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## clfsean (Mar 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Not all mantis forms and techniques actually capture/imitate the insect.
> For instance, there is a move (although a series-the complete series is condodered a move) in Chat Sing Tohng Lohng, called Baahk Yuhn Cheut Duhng...._lit-White Ape Exits_. It looks like an "ape tactic" in Mantis Style.


Because all Northern Mantis systems rely/base/build/reference/use the 12 keyword formula. SD does not.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> There are so many sub-syles, who can state for sure if it is mantis or not?


I can... been there, done that. They are superficial motions with an incomplete understanding of mantis. Sure it hurts to get hit by them, but it's not mantis just because they use gou sau or tong long dil sau or stand in chat sing ma. Of this I state with authority of having been in the organization & been through their version of mantis. Let it go... 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> The mantis and humans are of different structure. Any tactic that is merciless, can be considered mantis.


Nope... the bug is doing it to eat. Humans do it for fun.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 10, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Because all Northern Mantis systems rely/base/build/reference/use the 12 keyword formula. SD does not


 So mantis cannot be use for SD and some of those do not look like other arts?




			
				clfsean said:
			
		

> I can... been there, done that. They are superficial motions with an incomplete understanding of mantis. Sure it hurts to get hit by them, but it's not mantis just because they use gou sau or tong long dil sau or stand in chat sing ma. Of this I state with authority of having been in the organization & been through their version of mantis.


Not trying to sound sarcastic, but the org you are with is the only/authentic/"true" authority?





			
				clfsean said:
			
		

> Nope... the bug is doing it to eat. Humans do it for fun.


So mantis methods are not devastating-they're fun? Humans do not study it to learn to better fight/defend-it must be like dancing.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So mantis cannot be use for SD and some of those do not look like other arts?


 Sometimes I dont even understand your posts. Yes, SD could use a mantis form, but its not mantis if it doesn't follow the core principles of the mantis system. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So mantis methods are not devastating-they're fun? Humans do not study it to learn to better fight/defend-it must be like dancing.


  I think what your missing is that devistating is not the determining factor on what is or is not from the mantis system. 

  7sm


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## 7starmantis (Mar 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> No. I am saying that everything in a form doesn't have to look like what it impersonates. Face it, the insect has forearms designed by nature way different than humans. Trapping in "human mantis" are very simular in other CMA's.


 You just pulled that out of the blue. No one said that everything in a form must look like what it impersonates. Its obvious your limited knowledge and understanding of the mantis system, because the forearms are not used to trap all that much in mantis. Trapping is also not a defining quality of the mantis system. Your taking one technique and resting an entire system on it, thats incorrect. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> No, I am saying that the foundations and traditions of a system get changed as it is "passed down". Their own version or interpretation. However, practitioners/generations of those have a tendancy to "add" or "subtract" info.


 First, would you mind answering the question about how many "sub-styles" you believe there to be? 

 Thats absurd! The foundations of a system get changed as it is "passed down"? Thats ridiculous, that wouldn't be the same system anymore. In which case, it wouldn't be mantis. If you change the principles, foundations, add or subtract "info", you are not practicing mantis anymore. You have this viewpoint that nothing is absolute and that anything could be everything, but its just not so. There are determining guidlines to practicing a certain style, and if broken, you are not practicing the style correctly. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Come on, how many tactics have you seen in other arts that mantis has?


 I'm not sure what your asking? Tactics? Most CMA share "tactics" as I would define the word to be, but I'm unsure about what your asking. There are many shared techniques and even principles from CMA style to style, but there are also non shared ones as well. What is your point? 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Hmmn,, if one is to imitate the life-form, then the actual life-form is merciless.


 What? :idunno: The "life-form" being the insect? What are you saying? Your posting very unclearly. Mantis kung fu isn't imitating an insect, thats incorrect. I guess with that argument, humans breathe, so to breathe means you are a human? Most living creatures breathe, human or not. 

   7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 10, 2005)

You just pulled that out of the blue. No one said that everything in a form must look like what it impersonates. Its obvious your limited knowledge and understanding of the mantis system, because the forearms are not used to trap all that much in mantis. Trapping is also not a defining quality of the mantis system. Your taking one technique and resting an entire system on it, thats incorrect. 
_I did say they were, in fact I am saying that can be like each other. No, I am taking one tactic and riding the rest. it wads an example._

First, would you mind answering the question about how many "sub-styles" you believe there to be? 
_Webrowsing.....everyone seems to have it. They seem different. This is almost the same issue/analogy with those websites claiming "Authentic Shaoin Kung Fu"._

 Thats absurd! The foundations of a system get changed as it is "passed down"? Thats ridiculous, that wouldn't be the same system anymore. In which case, it wouldn't be mantis. If you change the principles, foundations, add or subtract "info", you are not practicing mantis anymore. You have this viewpoint that nothing is absolute and that anything could be everything, but its just not so. There are determining guidlines to practicing a certain style, and if broken, you are not practicing the style correctly. 
_My point exactly per my above response. Why can things change in a system as generation pass? Anyhing could be everything-no Anything could be misused or named as something else causing confusion._ 

I'm not sure what your asking? Tactics? Most CMA share "tactics" as I would define the word to be, but I'm unsure about what your asking. There are many shared techniques and even principles from CMA style to style, but there are also non shared ones as well. What is your point? 
_How can someone actually know that theirs is the real deal in comparison to another (CMA or other Mantis) when some of the tactic are the same? In other words, how can a total begiiner or person just coming in, find out those differences?_

What? :idunno: The "life-form" being the insect? What are you saying? Your posting very unclearly. Mantis kung fu isn't imitating an insect, thats incorrect. I guess with that argument, humans breathe, so to breathe means you are a human? Most living creatures breathe, human or not. 
_Gee, I sense that you maybe either don't understand what I am saying, or just want to get in a uproar about it. How about this-do you have a lineage/link to the Mantis system that you study and let me read from there? "Its ALL good" (OK-no hard feelings-no intentional insult)_


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## clfsean (Mar 11, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So mantis cannot be use for SD and some of those do not look like other arts?


It was said by 7* & re-iterate... if the defining principles are left out, then it's a shell of a form & not true mantis or anything else. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Not trying to sound sarcastic, but the org you are with is the only/authentic/"true" authority?


Well you are being hardheaded because you're not paying attention to the information being given you & you come back with nonsense replies. One more time... I'm ex-SD. I've done their Mantis training. It's not Mantis. I've seen, done, spoken with, watched & trained with other Mantis people since I've left & I can say categorically, it's not Mantis. They may use stances & hand positions, but the core is left out, hence... one last time... it's not Mantis.




			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So mantis methods are not devastating-they're fun? Humans do not study it to learn to better fight/defend-it must be like dancing.


Yeah they're fun. They're also only truely worthwhile if they're understood properly & applied correctly. 

So exactly... what is it you study & how long?


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## 7starmantis (Mar 11, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> _I did say they were, in fact I am saying that can be like each other. No, I am taking one tactic and riding the rest. it wads an example._


_
     :idunno: _You either need to spend a little time proof reading your posts before submitting it, or your just making up nonsense one line posts. Your not listening to our posts, you just continue to post nonsense and repost your own agendas. 


			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> _Webrowsing.....everyone seems to have it. They seem different. This is almost the same issue/analogy with those websites claiming "Authentic Shaoin Kung Fu"._


 Again, what is this? This is not an answer by any stretch of the imagination. You can refrence another thread, but your still not making a rational argument. The styles of mantis or any system for that matter are different to a degree, but they are also similar to a large degree. Would you please just answer the question? 


			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> _My point exactly per my above response. Why can things change in a system as generation pass? Anyhing could be everything-no Anything could be misused or named as something else causing confusion._


 Now your contradicting yourself. This is starting to look like your doing this on purpose. There is no confusion if you understand the core principles. Looking at something claiming to be mantis, you can tell very quickly if its true by the usage or non-usage of core principles. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> _How can someone actually know that theirs is the real deal in comparison to another (CMA or other Mantis) when some of the tactic are the same? In other words, how can a total begiiner or person just coming in, find out those differences?_


Oh come on! You can't be serious. This is starting to look trollish. Because systems share tactics its impossible to know what you study from something else? Your just posting nonsense.

 A beginner must spend time training, studying, and watching the skill of thier teachers. Its true that a complete beginner to Martial Arts might not know that what we saw on the videos is poor quality and not really true mantis. Thats why I have a problem with the school promoting it as such. Your need to stay on topic here though, your bouncing all over the place. The discussion about how can beginners know what is real before studying it is another thread altogether. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> _Gee, I sense that you maybe either don't understand what I am saying, or just want to get in a uproar about it. How about this-do you have a lineage/link to the Mantis system that you study and let me read from there? "Its ALL good" (OK-no hard feelings-no intentional insult)_


 Well, I can tell you I really truly dont understand most of what you post. What in the world does my lineage have to do with the discussion at hand? You posted this....





			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Hmmn,, if one is to imitate the life-form, then the actual life-form is merciless.


 Thats just a nonsensical random babling. Your answer to it is to read my lineage? This is getting ridiculous. If your unable to stay on topic or post coherant thoughts which add to the discussion, you may want to refrain from posting. 

     7sm


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 11, 2005)

I'm a little confused at this point.  

 Are we agreed that the form is in fact a mantis form, just done without the core concepts?  

 If so, I'm reluctant to say that they are not "doing" mantis. 

 As I said before their tiger crane IS tiger crane, its just BAD tiger crane.  

 I have no problem if people want to say that Shaolin Do do improperly formed Kung fu, but I think its hard to argue that what they are doing is NOT kung fu.


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## j_m (Mar 11, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> I have no problem if people want to say that Shaolin Do do improperly formed Kung fu, but I think its hard to argue that what they are doing is NOT kung fu.


You make it sound like there is a difference.   


This forum has become quite tedious 



jm


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 11, 2005)

_Mod. Note._ 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Please, return to the original topic





Tshadowchaser

Sheldon Bedell


----------



## 7starmantis (Mar 11, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Are we agreed that the form is in fact a mantis form, just done without the core concepts?


 Its no mantis form I've ever seen.

    I agree with j_m, whats the difference?

    7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 11, 2005)

_Well you are being hardheaded because you're not paying attention to the information being given you & you come back with nonsense replies. One more time... I'm ex-SD. I've done their Mantis training. It's not Mantis. I've seen, done, spoken with, watched & trained with other Mantis people since I've left & I can say categorically, it's not Mantis. They may use stances & hand positions, but the core is left out, hence... one last time... it's not Mantis.
_What did you meant by the core is left out?



If they call it mantis, can it be "their" style of mantis?

So are we in agreement that their forms are watered/trickled, or perhaps totally created by scratch, having little or none of the actual methods or series of other/mantis-etc., methods/forms?

Perhaps that they might be a new sub-style that have less in comparison with others of straighter lineage, (This is why the request of lineage comes in). because their lineage is vague. Do we agree upon this?

Are they considered a McDojo franchise?

And, do they have a lesser degree of teaching because they created a sub-style on their own?


----------



## clfsean (Mar 11, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> _Well you are being hardheaded because you're not paying attention to the information being given you & you come back with nonsense replies. One more time... I'm ex-SD. I've done their Mantis training. It's not Mantis. I've seen, done, spoken with, watched & trained with other Mantis people since I've left & I can say categorically, it's not Mantis. They may use stances & hand positions, but the core is left out, hence... one last time... it's not Mantis._
> What did you meant by the core is left out?


I'm not repeating myself again. Please read my previous posts. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> If they call it mantis, can it be "their" style of mantis?


Yes but erroniously...



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So are we in agreement that their forms are watered/trickled, or perhaps totally created by scratch, having little or none of the actual methods or series of other/mantis-etc., methods/forms?


In part only. You can't be something without training the heart & essence of a thing. Otherwise it's empty... It'd be like buying a house to find the interior framework missing... not good.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Perhaps that they might be a new sub-style that have less in comparison with others of straighter lineage, (This is why the request of lineage comes in). because their lineage is vague. Do we agree upon this?


Their lineage isn't vague. They have a clear lineage of where they come from. Their claims of skills are vague & questionable at best. They do not claim a sub-style. They claim a fountain head. Nope... no agreement.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Are they considered a McDojo franchise?


By some yes, others no.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> And, do they have a lesser degree of teaching because they created a sub-style on their own?


They didn't create it because it can't be proven they did. It can be speculated at best they did, but there's no proof & they do teach several mainstream sets. The teaching skills of those who teach are fine, however with the essence of a thing missing, they are teaching an incomplete thing.

I believe I asked you earlier about your training... you haven't responded.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 12, 2005)

I mean think about all the many seemingly "different Mantis Kung Fu:

First there is two classicfications:
Northern/Southern

Then there are many names/styles:
Seven Star
8 Steps
Jook Lum
Chow Gar
Wah Lum
Ah-Nan
Chi Gar
Iron Ox
Chu Gar

....are there any more?

Next, how can something still be the "core" being passed many generations with many styles, with many practitioners? What is meant by "core"?

If a lineage isnt vague and thus methods/form are a part of that lineage, surely they have a "core" (Depenong on what is meant by "core")

I mean, how can one state. in essence of any Kung Fu (Tiger, Crane, etc.), that there is only one, with one "way or the highway"?


----------



## 7starmantis (Mar 12, 2005)

Nice google skills 

 First, Southern mantis and northern mantis are not really realted. Your talking about two different systems. However, the northern systems, even the many different "styles" still all follow the 12 keyword formula, they still have a core set of principles which they all follow that make them "mantis". If these core principles are not followed, or the 12 keyword formula is not known or followed, it makes it not really correct, or true mantis. 

 You dont seem to be listening to any of us, you just keep repeating the same questions. There are principels which define CMA and each style of CMA. If these principles are ignored, its not considered CMA anymore.

  You have been asked a few questions which you are ignoring. Do you plan on answering them?

  7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 12, 2005)

Perhaps SD teaches Southern mantis


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## 7starmantis (Mar 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Perhaps SD teaches Southern mantis


  Nope, thats not Southern Mantis either.

 Basically, from watching the videos, I would even go so far as to say that it didn't look like they had some of the core principels of kung fu or CMA at all. 

  7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 12, 2005)

The Southern that you have seen, how do you know if these are correct?


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## 7starmantis (Mar 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> The Southern that you have seen, how do you know if these are correct?


 What? :idunno:

 Again, watching all the videos, not just the mantis ones, you can see they ignore certain core principels which define CMA in general. That is why I have said what I have.

 7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 12, 2005)

No. I mean have you seen all of Northern or Southern? (Not your own ssytem of mantis or the one that you study), how can you tell if others are not with other systems?

You have stated that you have seen Southern Videos, how do you know if these are correct (Not speaking of SD).

And, what is to determine the "authenticity" of any of it?. I keep relating this to "Authentic Shaolin Monks/Kung Fu". Because their is a cornucopia of many out there that claim to have/teach "Authentic..." this or that.

*Please, I beseech, do not get frustrated*, I only desire to gather understanding of what anyone may say from opposing views. I am not taking sides, per SD. I am asking "as if" I was with SD.

I keep getting reports and commentary on SD all over. Other martial art acquaintences tell me other stories/information on them. How many techniques/substyles/terminology/ within their curriculum seem to be hastenly thrown together or pieced together. if so, are they conssited mixd or eclectic?. This is why I had paid them a visit. And, for the sake of their practitoners, I am posting simplistic questions and making pressing surreal questions, is what I came across from other SD ex-practitioners.

Woe, are the one remaining in believing that have something "authentic".

But, in retro-process, did SD actually state they teach authentic SD, or "some" methods, stance, principles? Or do they have anything, resembling mantis, that they call mantus? Are they calling their mantis "complete"?

And so, if SD is fictious with mantis, then their lineage may be as well. perhaps their recent Master/Sin Kwang Thé may have created this own thing. Even the pics of the GrandMasters, which are sketches seem surreal.

One thing I found disturbing with their main website is:
_"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' __As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust." Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'_ However, this contradicts another section on the same site:
http://www.shaolin-do.com/events/tournaments/index.shtml
.....to tournaments that they hold


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## Black Tiger Fist (Mar 12, 2005)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> I'm a little confused at this point.
> 
> Are we agreed that the form is in fact a mantis form, just done without the core concepts?
> 
> ...


Many of Shaolin-Do sets are copied ,like the Tiger-Crane set. Others are just made up from somewhere without the actual styles theroy,principals,ideals,etc...

I've studied several of the systems that Shaolin-Do claims to teach forms from ,the last of which is Black Tiger. Of the three known Black Tiger systems ,Hak Fu Muhn,Fu Jow Pai, and Shantung. Those Black Tiger forms and techniques don't have "ANYTHING" in common with any of those systems. 

The movements are choppy at best and don't contain any of the Black Tiger core principals.

It sounds to me like 47MartialMan has a JKD/Kenpo/Kempo ideal about kung fu ,he wouldn't be the first ,but it's not CMA

You can't just take movements from a system or imitate a style and think you have the goods!

There is much more that makes a style or system.

You must have the "CORE" or you just have an imitation.

jeff


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 12, 2005)

What if you have the core, but decide to eliminate, alter, add, generally change it?


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## brothershaw (Mar 12, 2005)

If you have the core but choose to change it?

Change it because you think you can make it better, or maybe  your teacher showed it to you incorrectly, ? 

Some things you have to take on faith however if you change the core you also change the entire system since often the higher levels are built on the core. 
Whos to say the persons ho created the core know best but whos to say the persons changing the core know any better?

A beginner gets bored with the basics then as an intermediate or advanced student finds how the basics are the building blocks of everything, and practicing the basics makes everything else better.


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 12, 2005)

First, I think its unfair to judge all SD by these videos.  As we've seen that site took flak from the OTHER SDs because of the poor quality.  

 The core issue is well founded. However, many cirriculums use supplemental forms from other systems.  Hung Gar, for example, incorporated Lau Gar kuen, after recoreographing it so that it had a Hung core.  

 My Hung Gar school's cirriculum also includes a mantis form (Fo Ching Kuen.).

 The one SD practicioner on this board has opined that the CORE of SD is the bird forms...the others are supplemental.  

 Incidentally, I thought that the dragon and 8 drunken immortals on the site looked OK.


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## brothershaw (Mar 12, 2005)

Better yet, my experience with the chinese arts are they are very concept based as opposed to technique based generally speaking.


Whereas many styles teach various techniques from which you should learn the unifying concepts eventually, but if not at least you have a large bag of techniques.
The chinese arts teach you some techniques but also alot of concepts through various means and techniques are secondary. 

Sort of learning math through practice problems as opposed to learning mathematical theory. 

Any good teacher or style should not just give you what works, but how it works and why.


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## clfsean (Mar 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Perhaps SD teaches Southern mantis


No they don't... bottom line.

Are you going to answer my question or ignore it?? Just tell us all if you plan on ignoring my open question or if you plan on continuing to talk in circles looking for a answer to a question that's not gonna happen...


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## clfsean (Mar 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> No. I mean have you seen all of Northern or Southern? (Not your own ssytem of mantis or the one that you study), how can you tell if others are not with other systems?


This is my last response & waste of time in trying to talk to you. You apparently don't know when to stop so I am. I get further yelling at a tree than trying to talk to you.

I've seen... Taiji, Taiji Meihua, Meihua, Qixing, Liu He, Ba Bu & Wah Lum from the Northern branch of Mantis. They all share, use & practice the 12 keyword formula common to ALL Northern Praying mantis.

I've seen... Jook Lum & Chow Gar from the Southern branch of Mantis. They use none of the 12 keyword formula because it's not Northern mantis. They are based on a common Hakka ancestor art & they do resemble each other in many ways. 

I've practiced the SD version of mantis... it is neither of the above.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> You have stated that you have seen Southern Videos, how do you know if these are correct (Not speaking of SD).


Because when you get multiple people doing the same things who haven't trained together, like each other or get along doing & saying the SAME thing... what do you think?



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> And, what is to determine the "authenticity" of any of it?. I keep relating this to "Authentic Shaolin Monks/Kung Fu". Because their is a cornucopia of many out there that claim to have/teach "Authentic..." this or that.


What does this have to do with anything mentioned specifically about Mantis since this topic turned to Manits?? You get a couple of people (7*, me) saying it's not what it says it is, one of us (me) with first hand experience & you continue to try to say or twist words to something different?? 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> *Please, I beseech, do not get frustrated*, I only desire to gather understanding of what anyone may say from opposing views. I am not taking sides, per SD. I am asking "as if" I was with SD.


No you don't desire understanding. You're a troll & I'm done playing with you. If you really wanted to understand, you would stop & listen to people who have experience as opposed to being petulant.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I keep getting reports and commentary on SD all over. Other martial art acquaintences tell me other stories/information on them. How many techniques/substyles/terminology/ within their curriculum seem to be hastenly thrown together or pieced together. if so, are they conssited mixd or eclectic?. This is why I had paid them a visit. And, for the sake of their practitoners, I am posting simplistic questions and making pressing surreal questions, is what I came across from other SD ex-practitioners.


The world is the size of keyboard now. If somebody in SD wants to know or chooses to find out, they can Google it up. Don't confuse whatever your agenda is with public service for the people who don't want to know, don't care to know or just enjoy what they do there. But don't call a Chevy Cavalier in a trick kit a Ferrari... it's not. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Woe, are the one remaining in believing that have something "authentic".


No... woe to the ones who buy what they're told without the foresight to investigate on their own...



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But, in retro-process, did SD actually state they teach authentic SD, or "some" methods, stance, principles? Or do they have anything, resembling mantis, that they call mantus? Are they calling their mantis "complete"?


They stated they teach Praying Mantis from the Shaolin Temple in Henan. Guess what? Mantis isn't a Shaolin art from the Henan Temple. They call every thing they teach "Complete". To their credit, some of their stuff is, but that's not on the table & won't be. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> And so, if SD is fictious with mantis, then their lineage may be as well. perhaps their recent Master/Sin Kwang Thé may have created this own thing. Even the pics of the GrandMasters, which are sketches seem surreal.


Stranger things have happened.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> One thing I found disturbing with their main website is:
> _"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' __As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust." Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'_ However, this contradicts another section on the same site:
> http://www.shaolin-do.com/events/tournaments/index.shtml
> .....to tournaments that they hold


And.... ??


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 13, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Are you going to answer my question or ignore it?? Just tell us all if you plan on ignoring my open question or if you plan on continuing to talk in circles looking for a answer to a question that's not gonna happen...


What question?


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## Flatlander (Mar 13, 2005)

47MartialMan, I believe that clfsean is referring to this question:





			
				clfsean said:
			
		

> So exactly... what is it you study & how long?


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## Matt Stone (Mar 13, 2005)

I seem to remember, quite a while back when KFO was still up and running as a CMA oriented forum, that a concensus about Shaolin-Do was reached after discussion by both those who had trained in it and those who had observed it.

Sin The's background is suspect and unverifiable.  Does this, by itself, imply that it is false?  No.  Does his trip to Shaolin legitimize his ties to the temple?  In the minds of some, perhaps.  There are those who believe Shaolin is dead, only a tourist oriented shell of its former self, and any claim by any person to true links to the temple are invalid.

Bottom line, any style that claims over 500 forms; claims to teach the "entire system" for Manits, Xingyi, Taiji, Bagua, and other styles; claims it is too lethal for tournament competitions and then organizes its own tournaments; is simply raising entirely too many red flags for anyone but the most ignorant to sign up.

Maybe all Pintos won't explode from a rear end collision, but I'm not going to take the chance...  If a thing looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and is waterproof, there's a good chance it is exactly what it looks like...

I saw a Shaolin-Do class in Colorado about 15 years ago, and it was pathetic.  The brown belts in the class were apparently practicing the fetal defense against multiple attackers, since the defender did little other than run to the corner and ball up on the floor to defend against his three attackers...  I was definitely less than impressed.

Whatever.  If folks want to train in an art that has little other than a fanciful, fantastic background story to support its claims, fine.  Some sheeple, like it or not, are only into martial arts for the fantasy of it...  They see themselves as adepts, aspirants to the mystical secrets of some martial temple.  Whatever.  Let them have their fantasy.  It won't be us getting sued when they get their asses beaten in an alley somewhere...  That "honor" will go to their so-called "masters."

Now back to training...  Enjoy.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 13, 2005)

Extremely well put/posted Matt.

I enjoyed reading that commentary.......kudos....


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 13, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> 47MartialMan, I believe that clfsean is referring to this question:


Japanese, Korean, and Chinese martial arts, in that order. "In and out" and simo training.

Presently, as for the past 34 years, a "Chinese Family Art" which none here would have heard of.


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## The Kai (Mar 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Japanese, Korean, and Chinese martial arts, in that order. "In and out" and simo training.
> 
> Presently, as for the past 34 years, a "Chinese Family Art" which none here would have heard of.


What Japanese and Korean arts?


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## 7starmantis (Mar 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Japanese, Korean, and Chinese martial arts, in that order. "In and out" and simo training.
> 
> Presently, as for the past 34 years, a "Chinese Family Art" which none here would have heard of.


 Its almost better not to answer a question than answering with ridiculously vague answers, or pseudo answers.

 7sm


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## Matt Stone (Mar 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Japanese, Korean, and Chinese martial arts, in that order. "In and out" and simo training.



Usually, when citing one's C.V., it is best to name the art and time spent in training with that particular art (and/or starting and ending dates, grades earned, etc.) rather than listing generic categories and amorphous time periods...



> Presently, as for the past 34 years, a "Chinese Family Art" which none here would have heard of.



I think you'll find, 47MM, that claims like this will earn you no respect to speak of.  If you've trained in an art nobody has heard of (as I do, at least most folks have never heard of it), simply name the art.  Don't do your audience's thinking for them - let them say "I've never heard of that.  What is it?" instead of saying "You'd never know what it is, so I won't bother naming it."

Just some constructive criticism.  Take it for what it is worth...


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## Flatlander (Mar 13, 2005)

No kidding.  Someone just might jump in and say, "Hey!  I've heard of that!"  
Or not, who knows. :idunno:


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 13, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> What Japanese and Korean arts?


In order from the late 60's to 80's:

Judo/Jiu Jitsu (slash means same instructor-two classes)
Kuk Sul Won 
Tae Kwon Do/Hapkido
Aikido


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 13, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> I think you'll find, 47MM, that claims like this will earn you no respect to speak of. If you've trained in an art nobody has heard of (as I do, at least most folks have never heard of it), simply name the art. Don't do your audience's thinking for them - let them say "I've never heard of that. What is it?" instead of saying "You'd never know what it is, so I won't bother naming it."
> 
> Just some constructive criticism. Take it for what it is worth...


Thanks for the advice......

The Chinese system is called
Chin Ga Kuyhn....


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 13, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> No kidding. Someone just might jump in and say, "Hey! I've heard of that!"
> Or not, who knows. :idunno:


Rightly so.....I see what you mean.

But in analogy of a local restaurant or business, how will one know of a family art on a national or global scale?


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## sifu Adams (Mar 16, 2005)

Every body talks about the "Core Movements" of CMA what are they?  who can name them.  what fighting tech. are the Core Movements.  As for mantis I thought one of the key movements to the mantis is that it's a inside fighter, you work to get your opponet as close to you so you can fight at a 0-1 step fighting range.   I thought the mantis used pressure points with fast quick movements that would end the fight fast and quick?  Call me a fool but I have watched a real mantis before and it used it's front two legs to strike and the hook on them to pull the pray in.  he also used his middle legs to stike (like a instep kick).  now what is the "Core" of the mantis.  SD mantis uses these tech. in the forms. Dose everyone else use these movements?  If they are not then the whole history of Shaolin kung fu (where they watched the anamials to get their movements) is not true.  All who have talked bad about SD and there history I have a question if the monks Learned from the anamial souldn't the forms look like the anamials?  If someone was watching you do your forms with no knowlage of Martial arts would they say that looks like a Mantis or tiger or another anamial?


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## 7starmantis (Mar 16, 2005)

Um, first of all, monks and shaolin are not the cradle, or birthplace or authorities of CMA as you imply. Saying so only shows the difference between your understand of CMA and mine. Not that one is right and one is wrong, just very, very different. 

 "Core" is used normally to describe more principles than techniques. You can't make a list of "core" using techniques, its about principles. Your misguided thinking that practicing a certain style of kung fu means you must "look" like the animal. Thats absurd. Mantis have more legs than I do, how can I act like a mantis? A tiger weighs 800 pounds, I weight 200, how can I look like a tiger. Its a misunderstanding and misconception that is prevalent today on the outskirts of CMA. Mantis core principles are in line with CMA principles. However, simply mimicing a bug, or a form is not using principles at all. What are the fighting principles of the mantis in SD? The history of shaolin kung fu is allready incorrect and quite untrue. Someone watching real kung fu who has no martial arts background should say it looks like crap and that the fighters aren't really doing much to each other. Kung fu is quite unatural in its movements, an untrained person shouldn't look at kung fu and understand it at all really. Let alone think it looks like a mantis, or a tiger, or anything for that matter. 

  7sm


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## pekho (Mar 17, 2005)

Well there is a very good point in saying the animal style movements should not necessarily look like the movements of a particular animal.  But then why have animal movements?  It seems to me the character of a movement comes from the perceived character in nature as expressed in Chinese culture.  I learned a bamboo movement, and had trouble with it for years.  I watched giant bamboo and tried to figure out how to copy it, and as you can imagine I got nowhere.  Then I saw Crouching Tiger, and watching it, I began to understand the Chinese romantic ideal of bamboo.  This started me on a path to a better understanding of the character of the movement.  Movements like tiger, snake, and dragon may be based on a mixture of nature and myth, but you need to understand the myth to see the nature in a useful way.  If one begins to understand what the figure of a tiger is in Chinese mythology, then watching one in the zoo can be useful.  It sounds like the discussion of the movements of a praying mantis was based at least as much on the mythology as the mantis itself; this is as it should be.  A description of how a mantis shears open its prey with its mandibles would not necessarily be useful.  A description of the grabbing and holding power of a mantis is precisely applicable.

Josh


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## sifu Adams (Mar 17, 2005)

_Um, first of all, monks and shaolin are not the cradle, or birthplace or authorities of CMA as you imply. Saying so only shows the difference between your understand of CMA and mine. Not that one is right and one is wrong, just very, very different. 
_
*So you are saying that the monks and shaolin have nothing to do with CMA?* 

_You can't make a list of "core" using techniques, its about principles._ 

*Still no answer.  lets change the names.  what are the Techniques and Principles that I am missing in the SD mantis.  Prove me wrong!!!!! please you keep changing the names but can't seem to tell me what SD is missing that makes your mantis so much better.  *

However, simply mimicing a bug, or a form is not using principles at all.

*I agree if you JUST mimic the bug.  I am talking about understanding the BUG.  Do you fight at 0-1 step sparring?  if so why.  could it be that the mantis is a inside fighter?  If so where did this Principle come from?  This is common in the SD mantis and in the Southern Mantis I learned form Gin Foon Mark.  Granted they are diffent in the way they approch a opponite but the Principle of fighting in close are the same.  The SD has a little wider attacks that the southern.  When I fight I like to use the SD mantis to move in then go to southern mantis.  I like the combo when someone is useing kicking before I move in.  *

What are the fighting principles of the mantis in SD?

*There are only 4 main forms in the SD Mantis.  the first teaches you thrusting movements to striking pressure point in the body and head.  We work from a close rang and in combos of 3-4 strikes ( once we move in we wont to finsh), the arms are bent at the elbows and kept away from the body. The second form teaches you how to blitz.  In this form you learn to strike fast pushing off the back foot to get distence.  you also learn combo attacks that open your oppontts body and head for attacks. ( like high, low tech) you learn to blitz your oppontt with both hands and feet.  The thrid is for Trapping.  this kata helps you learn to trap your oppontts legs and arms. allowing you to move in and attack.  I have seen many styles teach self defence move that I can show you out of this kata.   You use a lot of Morshu ( sorry if spelled wrong) tech.  the last one teaches you how to change from one to another useing all the other forms.   *


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## 7starmantis (Mar 17, 2005)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> _Um, first of all, monks and shaolin are not the cradle, or birthplace or authorities of CMA as you imply. Saying so only shows the difference between your understand of CMA and mine. Not that one is right and one is wrong, just very, very different.
> _
> *So you are saying that the monks and shaolin have nothing to do with CMA?*


 C'mon, you can't be serious. That actually made me laugh out loud its so much of a twist from what I said. I said nothing even close to, or implying anything close to that. Please re-read my post. Shaolin is considered by many to be the grandfather of CMA that is simply wrong. Shaolin is considered the grandfather and may have just been a grandson. 



			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> _You can't make a list of "core" using techniques, its about principles._
> 
> *Still no answer. lets change the names. what are the Techniques and Principles that I am missing in the SD mantis. Prove me wrong!!!!! please you keep changing the names but can't seem to tell me what SD is missing that makes your mantis so much better. *


 I'm changing names? What do you mean? Changing what names? I didn't say you are missing techniques, but since you mention it.... If you have only 4 mantis forms, you can't seriously believe you cover every technqiue that a full mantis school would do you? Your getting awefully personal, I dont think I've seen you do any mantis, or trained with you, so to get that personal would be impossible. I can tell you the videos I saw were lacking. As far as missing principles, do you recognize these?
   ou, lou, tsai, kwa, tiao chin, peng ta, chan, nien, tieh, kao, chien shan, teng-nuo



			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> However, simply mimicing a bug, or a form is not using principles at all.
> 
> *I agree if you JUST mimic the bug. I am talking about understanding the BUG. Do you fight at 0-1 step sparring? if so why. could it be that the mantis is a inside fighter? If so where did this Principle come from? This is common in the SD mantis and in the Southern Mantis I learned form Gin Foon Mark. Granted they are diffent in the way they approch a opponite but the Principle of fighting in close are the same. The SD has a little wider attacks that the southern. When I fight I like to use the SD mantis to move in then go to southern mantis. I like the combo when someone is useing kicking before I move in. *


 While fighting distance is important in mantis, its simply not a determining factor of the mantis system. I'm not sure what you mean by 0-1 step sparring, is that like point sparring? I dont really spar at all, I play chi sou and I do full contact fighting. I dont really refer to anything I do as sparring, its very different in intent and methods. Your post about "using SD mantis to move in and then switch to southern mantis" pretty much sums up why I think SD is missing some principles. Let me say this, I'm not trying to attack you or your style. I'm not trying t osay you have no martial skill or anything like that. Just want to make that clear. I just think your understanding of CMA and mine are quite different as well as our application of CMA. 



			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> What are the fighting principles of the mantis in SD?
> 
> *There are only 4 main forms in the SD Mantis. the first teaches you thrusting movements to striking pressure point in the body and head. We work from a close rang and in combos of 3-4 strikes ( once we move in we wont to finsh), the arms are bent at the elbows and kept away from the body. The second form teaches you how to blitz. In this form you learn to strike fast pushing off the back foot to get distence. you also learn combo attacks that open your oppontts body and head for attacks. ( like high, low tech) you learn to blitz your oppontt with both hands and feet. The thrid is for Trapping. this kata helps you learn to trap your oppontts legs and arms. allowing you to move in and attack. I have seen many styles teach self defence move that I can show you out of this kata. You use a lot of Morshu ( sorry if spelled wrong) tech. the last one teaches you how to change from one to another useing all the other forms. *


 Ok, I did not ask for techniques your forms (sorry kata) teach you. I asked for fighting principles, again showing the differences in our understanding. Principles are not technqiues. I'm not really sure how to explain that to you :idunno:. Your talking about bending the arms and keeping them away from the body which is really quite directly oposite from most mantis principels of keeping the elbows close to the body. You open your arm up and lift it away from your body and you just gave your opponent a huge handle to control your entire body with. I'm sorry, I was going to stop posting on this thread, but I just couldn't resist. Would you mind naming the 4 forms you guys have for mantis? Also, how did these forms come about? They are not forms from other mantis systems, so were they created when SD was created? Do they hold any ties to the mantis lineage accepted by mantis schools?

  7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 17, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> "Core" is used normally to describe more principles than techniques. You can't make a list of "core" using techniques, its about principles. Your misguided thinking that practicing a certain style of kung fu means you must "look" like the animal. Thats absurd. Mantis have more legs than I do, how can I act like a mantis? A tiger weighs 800 pounds, I weight 200, how can I look like a tiger. Its a misunderstanding and misconception that is prevalent today on the outskirts of CMA. Mantis core principles are in line with CMA principles. However, simply mimicing a bug, or a form is not using principles at all.


Yes, not all techniques in a given system, per animal, are mimicking. One must realize that the forms/methods, were created my martial art masters with previous fighting skills. They blended their fighting skills/ability, into a system best suited for them. For instance, if someone had practices/methods, to develop a certain area of skill, say power striking. Then he could relate to those skills as "Tiger". Because he is human, he doesn't have the weight, fangs, and claws, like the animal, he could never be a true mimick of it. The misconception is thought of as the animal systems must mimick the animal. In many animal systems, there are other title given to methods that doesn't reflect the given animal. For example:_*DAAIH FU YIN KYUHN*_.translates roughly as Big Tiger Swallow Fist. One would assume by observation that this is in a Tiger system, which it is in a Mantis system.





			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> The history of shaolin kung fu is allready incorrect and quite untrue. Someone watching real kung fu who has no martial arts background should say it looks like crap and that the fighters aren't really doing much to each other. Kung fu is quite unatural in its movements, an untrained person shouldn't look at kung fu and understand it at all really. Let alone think it looks like a mantis, or a tiger, or anything for that matter.


Everybody, um-most inexperience people, are on tha "animal kick". Or the "monks watched animals". I too was thinking that-in my way-back, earlier years. But I did painstaken research, before the "almighty interent". And I had any interesting things that stating otherwise. One of my major sources was speaking to Buddhists. Two Buddhist monks of the Ch'en order had told me that much of "Shaolin History" has been fabricated because that was a form of entertainment in a place and/or time, that had no modern conveniences like the internet, electricity, television, etc. Each, especialy of those two, I had interviewd and had long discussions via mail correspondance at different intervals in the distant past.

I am thinking that SD, or other martial artists don't realize this because they want/desire the myths surrounding martial arts. And become in denial if something else should surface against these myths.


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## sifu Adams (Mar 17, 2005)

_While fighting distance is important in mantis, its simply not a determining factor of the mantis system._

*Wow,  Help me understande this.  Gin foon Mark must be wrong.  He stressed this to us over and over. What is the determining factors of the Mantis?  I though this was a principle of the mantis.  *

_ou, lou, tsai, kwa, tiao chin, peng ta, chan, nien, tieh, kao, chien shan, teng-nuo_

*Are these moves tech. decribe one for me.  I may not know what you call it but that dose not mean I don't know the move.  *

_If you have only 4 mantis forms, you can't seriously believe you cover every technqiue that a full mantis school would do you?_ 

*Nope never said we did.  How many forms dose it take to understand the mantis style.  10, 20, 30, 300, or 1 ?  I have said before according to Hiang The'  and the letters that was wrote by his grandfather that the brothers leard from 4 other masters each having differnt styles.  the Masters would only show what they thought the brothers needed.  example: master Hiang is a master of the Tai Pang system from Lu Su Pong.   He learned from other masters only what they thought would compliment the Tai pang System.  Example if the mantis style had 18 forms they would learn the 2nd form, 6th form, 14th form and the 18th form.   A better example of this so far almost all the differnt systems we have always have a trap.  Ex. tiger trap, mantis trap, dragon trap, dagger trap, ect... Do all the movements look the same "no" each anamial has a differnt pricipal about how they trap becuase the mantis can't trap like a bird or tiger.  All of our forms do have common moves in them however the way each system sets up a attack is all differnt. *

*you talk about not understanding the anamial thing.  I think you are all wrong on this.  Ex. in our 5 anamial form their is a snake.  during the snake you make two differnt hand depending on what side you are on.  the first side your hand is cuped like the back of the cobra on the other side you have two figers out like a fangs of a vipor.  when you do the moves you have to think of the differanet snakes because that determans the way you strike.  ex the cobra strikes fast (300 mph according to the anamial planet) and retraces back-- so when you strike you should hit fast to a Pressure point and pull back  on the other side you strike like a viber. They have to inject the poison through the fangs. so they strike and latch on.  We do the same this would be like a strike to the jugular vain in the neck.  we would strike and grab.  That's how we use the anamials and I do believe that is how the monks used the aniamials.  *


*This to me is princapals of that styles.  Please explain what you are talking about when it comes the the principals of the mantis.  *
*  I am not trying to make anyone mad I just really believe that the SD system is talked about only becuase they cant trace the history.  Instead of chanllanging SD on the history ( that everyone know onone can prove right or wrong) how about chanllanging me and the SD system on the the knowlage of how to fight using the forms and the principals behind them?  *

*I ask what do you see in the mantis that dose not reflect the pricipals of the mantis you do.  Better yet help me learn how to make SD mantis better.  the last two post I have showed you our thinking behind the differnt systems.  What's Yours.  Or do you know?  (don't mean that in a bad way, just asking.  Maybe if you explain one of your tech. I could help you understand it?)*


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 17, 2005)

*according to Hiang The' and the letters that was wrote by his grandfather that the brothers leard from 4 other masters each having differnt styles. the Masters would only show what they thought the brothers needed.*

Yeah, I have to somewhat agree with some mantis principles in differences of system/teacher.

However, I disagree that a move has to mimick the animal. Although, the methods that I had learned, per Mantis, were aggressive-like the bug. But, some were not mimicking it always.

My very own Shifu, had his own that he taught and had learned. Ie became part of the "family's heirarchy".

Does this mean his mantis, or where he had learned it, is less valuable or not mantis?


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## sifu Adams (Mar 17, 2005)

I not saying that you have to mimick that anamial.  I have been told that when the monks first started they mimicked the anamial to a "T".  then the 4 ancestors changed the forms to make them quicker to learn and tighten the forms up for the wooded south.  At this point the forms started looking less like the anamials.  

As for your Sifu I don't think any style is better that another if you understande what you are doing.  I am sure your sifu had a reason for putting the style of mantis in your system.  that is what Master do. they improve that systems.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 17, 2005)

I have been told that when the monks first started they mimicked the anamial to a "T". 

This is not fact.


_However, the 4 ancestors changed the forms to make them quicker to learn and tighten the forms up for the wooded south. At this point the forms started looking less like the anamials._ 
But, you must realize, things of past was changed, including the event(s). This was a story told. Such stpries, including some that one of my Shifus told, are not entirely factual. As stories are tols through a raconteur, this was a method of entertainment or past time.


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## sifu Adams (Mar 17, 2005)

47Martialman,

I would love to see some of your research and facts.  Where they come from who your contact is.  You are making some big statements. I not saying they are not true or they are true but names, dates, and how you know that the facts you believe are true would be a great help to all styles kung fu.  I have learned my believes from differnt masters and a china intelagace officer.  When you are discrediting a lot more masters than just SD's.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 17, 2005)

I would love to see what a china intelagace officer has to say. I did not state my research was fact. I am stating that I had found indifferences in many of what was taken as common "belief". I am stating that such info/belief, that has been passed and exchanged for so long, has more chance of "clouding". Do you train in SD?


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## sifu Adams (Mar 17, 2005)

the guy from china lives now in NJ he is veary interesting to talk to.  his name is John Lee.  Off topic but he just got me a braodsword with my school name and one one side a tiger the other a dragon and a bird on both sides near the wide part of the blade.  veary nice.  and good price.


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## sifu Adams (Mar 17, 2005)

Back on topic.  

I agree there are differant history.  I have alway said I believe there is some good forms and tech. in the SD system but I really believe the brothers didn't spend that much time understanding the History of the system they were learning.  I don't believe they made that many forms up that had  the setup and tech. that you can get out of the forms.  If they did I am impressed.  if they did copy them from someone the picked good ones to copy.


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## thepanjr (Mar 17, 2005)

nope i didnt heard about this one


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## thepanjr (Mar 17, 2005)

how mant belts are in kung fu


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## 7starmantis (Mar 17, 2005)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> _While fighting distance is important in mantis, its simply not a determining factor of the mantis system._
> 
> *Wow, Help me understande this. Gin foon Mark must be wrong. He stressed this to us over and over. What is the determining factors of the Mantis? I though this was a principle of the mantis.*


 Once again you have taken and twisted what I said. I didn't say anything about Gin Foon Mark at all, niether did I say fighting distance wasn't worth being stressed, or that it isn't a principles of the mantis system. What I actually said was, "fighting distance is important in mantis". It is and worthy of being stressed, but your fighting distance is not going to determine if your following the mantis principels or not( at least to a point reasonable to most intellegent people). 


			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> _ou, lou, tsai, kwa, tiao chin, peng ta, chan, nien, tieh, kao, chien shan, teng-nuo_
> 
> *Are these moves tech. decribe one for me.  I may not know what you call it but that dose not mean I don't know the move.*


 No, these are principles, not techniques or "moves". Again, I can't explain the difference to you here. Principles are the "core" your hearing everyone talk about. Techniques or "moves" follow principles. Ou is basically hooking, but its not something I can explain via this medium, its something you have to see and feel. 


			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> _If you have only 4 mantis forms, you can't seriously believe you cover every technqiue that a full mantis school would do you?_
> 
> *Nope never said we did. How many forms dose it take to understand the mantis style. 10, 20, 30, 300, or 1 ? I have said before according to Hiang The' and the letters that was wrote by his grandfather that the brothers leard from 4 other masters each having differnt styles. the Masters would only show what they thought the brothers needed. example: master Hiang is a master of the Tai Pang system from Lu Su Pong. He learned from other masters only what they thought would compliment the Tai pang System. Example if the mantis style had 18 forms they would learn the 2nd form, 6th form, 14th form and the 18th form. A better example of this so far almost all the differnt systems we have always have a trap. Ex. tiger trap, mantis trap, dragon trap, dagger trap, ect... Do all the movements look the same "no" each anamial has a differnt pricipal about how they trap becuase the mantis can't trap like a bird or tiger. All of our forms do have common moves in them however the way each system sets up a attack is all differnt.*


 Its not about the number of forms, but the understanding and folowing of principles. Most all mantis systems are similar and all follow the 12 keywords I listed above. 


			
				sifu Adams said:
			
		

> *I ask what do you see in the mantis that dose not reflect the pricipals of the mantis you do. Better yet help me learn how to make SD mantis better. the last two post I have showed you our thinking behind the differnt systems. What's Yours. Or do you know? (don't mean that in a bad way, just asking. Maybe if you explain one of your tech. I could help you understand it?)*


 Its basically the lack of adhearance to sid principels and application of mantis techniques. I'm not sure what your asking. Do I know my thinking behind the mantis system? I'm not really sure what your asking. 

  7sm


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## sifu Adams (Mar 18, 2005)

7* I wont to under stand the principles of the mantis.  With ou are refering to feeling.  I SD mantis we have hooking tech. that use feel.  the thought is you can feel your oppont move before you can see them move.  We also work on sinsitivty training.  this trianing is use differn in SD mantis that in the Southern Mantis that Gin Foon Mark show.  however the principle is the same.  In the Suthern Mantis you move in make hand to hand contact with your oppont then use feel.  It has been said that once you move in the mantis dont quit untill the job is done.  In the SD mantis you do the same however, the feeling you use is stronger.  Ex.  you may blitz your oppoint's gard with multible attacks using the arms in a downward hooking motion.  After the opponit feels the pressure on the arms he will start resisting.  Once you feel the resistance you release the pressure. If done right your oppont will kindly raise his arms leaveing you with a great shot to the head or body.  

The reason I like the SD mantis to move in is because I have trouble using the Southern Mantis to move in when my oppont is throwing multible kicks.


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## brothershaw (Mar 18, 2005)

I believe you are missing the point, 
when sevenstar is referring to prinicples, the principles are not movements but ideas and qualities that should be followed and be in everything you do for a given style. You can do a movement but not have the principles in the movement and that will be the difference between a beginner and an advanced student.  
Perhaps sevenstar could define the principles and qualities that define the mantis he is learning?

I only read bits and pieces of this thread so excuse me if this has already been said


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## 7starmantis (Mar 18, 2005)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> 7* I wont to under stand the principles of the mantis. With ou are refering to feeling. I SD mantis we have hooking tech. that use feel. the thought is you can feel your oppont move before you can see them move. We also work on sinsitivty training. this trianing is use differn in SD mantis that in the Southern Mantis that Gin Foon Mark show. however the principle is the same. In the Suthern Mantis you move in make hand to hand contact with your oppont then use feel. It has been said that once you move in the mantis dont quit untill the job is done. In the SD mantis you do the same however, the feeling you use is stronger. Ex. you may blitz your oppoint's gard with multible attacks using the arms in a downward hooking motion. After the opponit feels the pressure on the arms he will start resisting. Once you feel the resistance you release the pressure. If done right your oppont will kindly raise his arms leaveing you with a great shot to the head or body.
> 
> The reason I like the SD mantis to move in is because I have trouble using the Southern Mantis to move in when my oppont is throwing multible kicks.


 I'm having a hard time following your posts because of the spelling and grammer. I'm not trying to be funny or rude. 

 We simply disagree on what CMA is and how it is used. I'm not one that believes in the ability to "switch styles" while fighting and such. Feel is a huge principles that I dont think I will ever fully understand, but as of now I dont use feel with just my hands but rather my whole body. Contact is not restricted to the hands. 

 Actually, I'm not really here to debate the techniques of differing mantis systems, this thread is really about SD and I just simply feel that SD is missing alot in its application. Mantis sticks out to me because I study mantis myself, thats all. Watching the videos is the only exposure I really have to SD or SD's mantis "kata". Watching them, I saw no application, and no real understanding for what was happening in the form itself. 

 This thread is becoming quite circular and I dont mind the thread continuing if it stays on topic and is useful. Basically I think without training together, we can't really exchange much more than we allready have.

   Possibly you could look at this link: http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/clips.htm

 And view the video in the first column named "Praying Mantis - Pick and play" and explain the form, piece by piece for me in application of what each technique is and how it is used?

    7sm


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## 7starmantis (Mar 18, 2005)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> I believe you are missing the point,
> when sevenstar is referring to prinicples, the principles are not movements but ideas and qualities that should be followed and be in everything you do for a given style. You can do a movement but not have the principles in the movement and that will be the difference between a beginner and an advanced student.
> Perhaps sevenstar could define the principles and qualities that define the mantis he is learning?
> 
> I only read bits and pieces of this thread so excuse me if this has already been said


 Good post, yes you are correct. I have outlined the principles that define the mantis I'm learning with the 12 keyword formula. 

  7sm


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## sifu Adams (Mar 18, 2005)

brothershaw,
  I have been asking him to do that.  I agree that a style can be done without prinicples and at that point you are right it has no point.  however, what are you refering to as prinicples is my question. shouldn't your movements be based around the prinicples?  Let me do it this way.  Tell me what is wrong and how it dose not fit with the prinicples of the mantis.

Mantis Prinicples:
 1. Mantis uses feeling to fight.
 2. Mantis keeps his center line protected
 3. Mantis keep the arms extended from the body to move the oppont out of striking range. 
 4.  Miantis fights  close to his opponit, he is a inside fighter. (0-1 step away from opponit)
 5. Mantis uses fast pinpointed strikes to vital point in the body.
 6. Once the mantis has moved in they don't stop untill the fight is over. 
 7. the Mantis uses measuring tech to pinpoint pressure points in the body 
 8. Mantis uses short distance strikeing to decreasing the time his oppont has to react to the strike. 
 9.  Mantis will strike and block at the same time.

theres 9 prinicples tear them apart. Just remember I ask you to state WHY? don't just put "No".  I am willing to lisson and learn since I don't seem to be vary high up in rank according you all


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## 7starmantis (Mar 18, 2005)

This is some of what I'm talking about. This picture is from the video titled "Praying Mantis" His fingers are extended and open, his base foot is up on the toe (not rooted), his center is off balance and leaning back, his head is down (not looking ahead where the attacker would be), his guard hand is nowhere in sight, but if you watch the video is down by his stomach. The kick is obviously far beyond his natural abilities and a huge stretch to make. 

  These are the things that make me say what I have about these forms (sorry kata).

  7sm


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## 7starmantis (Mar 18, 2005)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> brothershaw,
> I have been asking him to do that. I agree that a style can be done without prinicples and at that point you are right it has no point. however, what are you refering to as prinicples is my question. shouldn't your movements be based around the prinicples? Let me do it this way. Tell me what is wrong and how it dose not fit with the prinicples of the mantis.
> 
> Mantis Prinicples:
> ...


 First, lets not put words in each others mouths. No one has said anything about your rank. If we are going to have an honest discussion it must be just that...honest. 

 Now, your list is a list of generalities from observance of the mantis system. They are not really principles. They are basically observances that can be recognized when seeing mantis kung fu. However, some of them are wrong even still.

   1.) Thats a generality of all CMA. How does mantis use feeling to fight?
 2.) Another mistaken observation. Keeping your centerline protected is simply not a principles of the mantis system. I guess you could argue that it is important in fighting, but its just not a principles of the mantis system.
 3.) This is actually contradictory to mantis principles. Mantis principles teach to keep the arms close to the body. We use alot of yielding and colapsing techniques which involve bringing the arms close to the body. You can't break a joint with your body weight from an extended arm position. When yielding out of a chin na or some hold, mantis principles teach 100% of the time to move in close and bring the lock in towards the body. We also do not try to keep opponents out of reach, thats ridiculous, how would we hit them? We actually move in close, your #3 and #4 contradict each other.
 4.) This contradicts your #3 principle. How can you push your opponent out of striking distance and fight in close? While fighting close is a characteristic of mantis kung fu its not really a principle. What is the principle behind fighting close?
 5.) Another characteristic of watching mantis fighters, but dont most martial artist do this as well? Its not a principle of the mantis system, but a smart technique to use when fighting in general.
 6.) This is a good observation of mantis kung fu, again however just an observation. Mantis is very relentless and non-stopping, but that isnt' started only after the fighter moves in. The principle is continuing throughout the fight from the very first situation to when you sit at home in your easy chair. 
 7.) I dont really even understand what this is talking about. What kind of measuring techniques? Again, we are back to talking about techniques, not principles. How do you measure and pinpoint a pressure point? If you dont know where the pressure points are, your most likely not going to make much use of them in a fight. 
 8.) This would seem correct from watching mantis kung fu, but its really not a principle of mantis. Short distance technqiues are used because there is only a short distance between you and your opponent, not to decrease his reaction time. While that may be a side-effect, its not the purpose. In fact, many times a reaction is what I'm looking for. His reaction will guide me right into an attack. Many technqiues are used to get a reaction such as a block in order to set up an attack.
 9.) Again, a characteristic of mantis, not a principle. Why do we strike and block at the same time? That would be the principle. In fact, we may strike, block, kick, and unbalance an opponent all at the same time. Some of those things might not be seen, so that could be why you left them out. Still, we aer staying on techniques instead of principles. There are few blocks in mantis, most are used to redirect.

 the problem I see is that you are only getting a surface understanding of mantis kung fu. Thats ok, I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't practice mantis kung fu to really understand it, but your stuck on techniques and visible characteristics instead of fighting principles. You claim to understand mantis kung fu when your only really getting an observational copy of mantis kung fu.

   7sm


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## CMack11 (Mar 18, 2005)

> when sevenstar is referring to prinicples, the principles are not movements but ideas and qualities that should be followed and be in everything you do for a given style. You can do a movement but not have the principles in the movement and that will be the difference between a beginner and an advanced student.


I think this is the key point of the whole thing. I'm a relative beginner to mantis, but this just seems like common sense. Every class I go to, for the entire class, we work under mantis principles. The whole time. So even though Shaolin-Do mantis work might use a trapping hand and we might use a trapping hand, we are using ours based completetly on mantis principles. When we kick, we are taught to kick a very specific way. The mantis way. There are many similarities with many kicks, but then there are differences. 

My sifu is a 7* mantis teacher. He has being doing it for 13 years. Our associate teacher has been doing mantis for 8 years. They have a very deep understanding of the fundamentals of 7* mantis principles, which translates into their instruction. So all of our instruction revolves around the mantis principles from Day 1.

*EDIT:* I wanted to include an example.  One of the drills we did last night was dealing a 3-step sparring method (basically a block, grab, sweep).  Our associate instructor kept correcting me on my blocking, because even though I was blocking the punch, I wasn't doing it 'the mantis way'.  We went over where my hip should be, and where my arm should be in relation to my shoulder and my chest in order to yield properly to the strike.  The proper yielding led to a better set-up for a variety of moves, and to paraphrase my instructor, it would be much more valuable when I was at a higher level because I would need the proper space between my arm and chest to avoid attacks, and to set up my own attacks better.


This is how every class is.  Even though we are doing techniques, my sifu and all of our other instructors go to great lengths to make sure we have all of the little details down.  We start learning every drill according to mantis principles starting with the first class.  Learning to 'think like a mantis boxer'.


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## sifu Adams (Mar 18, 2005)

_3. Mantis keep the arms extended from the body to move the oppont out of striking range._
_7. the Mantis uses measuring tech to pinpoint pressure points in the body_ 

Both of these principals I learned from Grand Master Gin Foon Mark (5th gereation master of southern Mantis--been doing it for over 70 years) I will admit that I did not know these two principals untill after I met Master Mark but they fit veary will with the SD Mantis. 

CMack11, I am guessing but I would say that your instructor told you the distance between you chest and arms was because if you have them to close into the body that you would get hit before you could block.  When you extend them out your opponits punch will fall inches short and you will be able to use your forarms to redirect or block.  this is what I ment in #3 and what was told to me by Master Mark.  

As for the Mesuring tech-- example-- there is a Pressure point in the chest 3rd rib down three finger withs from the sternum.  Most people that dose PP with just try to hit the point.  In the Mantis I have learned, in both SD and SM, If you aim your little finger at the sternum and stick you first knuck out you have a chance at hitting the point. You can flip your hand palm up and hit the other side.  A Better example it you block a left punch with your right hand from the inside out (palm up) your opponits arm will lead you right to his left temple.  

7*, all differances aside.  I think you are off on number 8, and I think you might wont to think about this.   On advrage it take a 1/4 of a second to throw a punch, it also on advrage take your oppont a 1/4 of a second to react to your punch.  this is all based of of a person drawing back and throwing a punch.  In your mantis if your hands are on your opponits and you dont draw back you just advance forward and strike, you can stike within this 1/4 of a second time frame not allowing your oppont time to even think about the block.  I have been on both sides of this.  if your striking its fun, if you are blocking you get flustrated because you start blocking after they have already hit you.  

I still haven't heard any one give me a example of a princapal that don't have anything to do with fighting or a tech.  If you saying I must live the life of the Mantis I would dissagree, I don't think this is what you are saying. but a example of a princiapal would be nice.  

Let me clear something up.  If you think we learn a form in 3-6 months and never go back over it you are wrong.  I work out 3 hours everyday.  I have been for 15 years.  I do my mantis forms at lease 3 times a week and when I do them I do nothing but mantis both SD and SM. I do all my forms this way.  I spend 1 hour each day doing drills from the forms that i am working on that day.  Now you might say I should spend all my time on the Mantis but I would tell you that I like the diversity of the differnant styles.  I will agree that most in the SD don't put that much time in and that most will learn and put it on a shelf somewhere out of reach. I would say you probly have that in a lot of styles and that is why many talk bad about the SD system.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 18, 2005)

I thought peng was to ward off, redirect, push? Or is it a chop/strike?


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## CMack11 (Mar 18, 2005)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> CMack11, I am guessing but I would say that your instructor told you the distance between you chest and arms was because if you have them to close into the body that you would get hit before you could block. When you extend them out your opponits punch will fall inches short and you will be able to use your forarms to redirect or block. this is what I ment in #3 and what was told to me by Master Mark.


Not really.  Part of it is because it's easier to move into a counter attack, and part of it is to prevent the other person from collapsing their elbow into your sternum.  




> Let me clear something up. If you think we learn a form in 3-6 months and never go back over it you are wrong. I work out 3 hours everyday. I have been for 15 years. I do my mantis forms at lease 3 times a week and when I do them I do nothing but mantis both SD and SM. I do all my forms this way. I spend 1 hour each day doing drills from the forms that i am working on that day. Now you might say I should spend all my time on the Mantis but I would tell you that I like the diversity of the differnant styles. I will agree that most in the SD don't put that much time in and that most will learn and put it on a shelf somewhere out of reach. I would say you probly have that in a lot of styles and that is why many talk bad about the SD system.


I've got nothing bad to say about SD.  Different strokes for different folks.  But if I take you, who works out 3 hours/day for 15 years working on a diversity of different styles, what % of that time is spent working on mantis?  What about in a given week?  How much time in a week do you work on your mantis?

My only take on this is that the depth of understanding a mantis practicioner has about his art is going to be more, simply because he spends more time working on his mantis.  This is a cheesy analogy, but it's like an onion.  Lots of layers.  Somebody who is purely mantis is going to have more time to understand the deeper layers, because he spends more time just doing mantis.  Doesn't mean that it's better or worse than SD at all.  Just diffferent.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 18, 2005)

_My only take on this is that the depth of understanding a mantis practicioner has about his art is going to be more, simply because he spends more time working on his mantis. This is a cheesy analogy, but it's like an onion. Lots of layers. Somebody who is purely mantis is going to have more time to understand the deeper layers, because he spends more time just doing mantis. Doesn't mean that it's better or worse than SD at all. Just diffferent._


It means that it is more than different...it is as close to "authentic, then someone fusing it withe their stuff.


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## sifu Adams (Mar 18, 2005)

_My only take on this is that the depth of understanding a mantis practicioner has about his art is going to be more, simply because he spends more time working on his mantis. This is a cheesy analogy, but it's like an onion. Lots of layers. Somebody who is purely mantis is going to have more time to understand the deeper layers, because he spends more time just doing mantis. Doesn't mean that it's better or worse than SD at all. Just diffferent_

*I agree, with more indepth understanding, however I don't think anyone can say it's not Mantis or brush it off as being made up.  Part of this whole thread started with others putting down the SD.  I have been (in a round about way) been throwed out by both brothers.  Most would tear the art up, but I think most don't understande SD.  As I have said before there are some great fighters that came out of SD that has trained in nothing else but SD.  I have also seen some of the student of SD that have high belt that don't understand the SD system.  I guess I look at Martial arts and I expect to be able to fight with the forms and tech that the instructor is teaching.  We have around 30 diffent self-defence moves that we show out at white belt rank.  they range from two hand chokes, head locks, arm bar locks, two hand shirt grab, ect... like most styles.  I can take any one of the 30 and show you the move in a form and some times two or three forms.  when done in the SD form most of the time it has a set up move before.  I can fight any style and feel like I have a chance.  I can change and adapt to anything.  If you ask what the princapals of SD I would say never let your oppont lead.  IF you wont to kick I will go inside, if you wont to fight inside I will keep you at a distance, if you wont to stand up and fight Iwill go to the ground.  The system seems to teach you how to fight in any situation.  a few weeks ago I had master from the Arnis come up and teach some police offercers in the area.  He was demostrating how once you got the person down you could lay on there chest and amost keep them from breathing.  As this 260+ lb guy layed on my (150lb) chest I started to lose my breath, at this point I went strate to the breathing I had learnd in the SD system and got my breath back.  I can tell you many stories where some one came at me and I did a move out of one of my SD forms.  *


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## 7starmantis (Mar 18, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> This is some of what I'm talking about. This picture is from the video titled "Praying Mantis" His fingers are extended and open, his base foot is up on the toe (not rooted), his center is off balance and leaning back, his head is down (not looking ahead where the attacker would be), his guard hand is nowhere in sight, but if you watch the video is down by his stomach. The kick is obviously far beyond his natural abilities and a huge stretch to make.
> 
> These are the things that make me say what I have about these forms (sorry kata).
> 
> 7sm


  Could you explain the application and purpose of this? 
   Do you have any videos of you performing a form that we could see?
  Could you answer my question about going through the video on that site technique by technique?

   7sm

 Edit: Using *bold* letters is considered yelling almost shouting. It also considered rude to type entire posts in that "tone of voice" if you will.


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## sifu Adams (Mar 18, 2005)

Sorry about the bold letter thing I didn't know. I was just trying to make it easyer to read.  


With out seeing the hole form I can't say he is doing it all wrong or not.  It looks like he is doing what SD calls a double smash. It is used throughout the SD system.  as for the mantis. it is used in all the mantis forms we have.  in the thurst it's at the veary end.  the lead in move is a left instep kick to your opponits left side,(yes head level--I know you don't like that but thats our system)  which will draw your opponit back and shift his wieght to his right side. then you set the Left foot down spin to your right and smash the right side of the there head with your left foot.  (like a ax kick) I am assuming this is what he is doing because his foot is off the ground.  We have this same move in another manits where you feed the hand to the oppist side of your opponits body and then smash with the foot.  Can it be done  Yes, I have had it happen to me and I have done it.  except I changed the kick to a spinning round house for safety reasons.  Think of this if you are in your mantis stance lets say right foot forward.  :Your hands are touching mine and my right leg is forward.  what happens when I move my left hand to the right side of your body?  Would you parry it to your left? if so what hand are you useing, where is your weight, and remember my next move is the left leg to the right side of your head.  Will it work every time? maybe, maybe not Can you defend from it Maybe, maybe not.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 18, 2005)

Well that was one question.

7sm


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## sifu Adams (Mar 18, 2005)

Did that help you understand?  You don't have to agree with it. I would just like for people to understand enought to recpect it.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 19, 2005)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> the lead in move is a left instep kick to your opponits left side,(yes head level--I know you don't like that but thats our system)


 Thats exactly my point, you have made it well. _Your_ system, not CMA. I dont think I have not understood the SD system, I just dont understand why they must persist in calling it CMA when they could just say its a new created system.

   You do things against CMA principles because its _your_ system but then try to say your witholding to CMA principles. In mantis, that explination you gave is completely against the principles.

   Also, that is only one of the questions I asked you.

   7sm


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## 7starmantis (Mar 19, 2005)

sifu Adams said:
			
		

> Did that help you understand? You don't have to agree with it. I would just like for people to understand enought to recpect it.


 I think you are fighting a personal battle here. It seems you feel the need to make everyone respect your system and skill. No one here is disrespecting the system or its players, just that its not withholding the CMA principles an dthus should be honest about its conception and principles.

  7sm


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 19, 2005)

But, from what I had talked to other people about it, it is not honest about its conecepts, lineage, principles on a CMA scale. True, it seems to be a "newly created" system then what their leaders make it to be. I had visited one and received that impression. But, be it as it may, it was well structured and organized.


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