# Why didn't the TAGB adopt Sine Wave?



## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

Pretty chocked to learn this. I thought for sure the relations between the ITF and TAGB would result in them teaching Choi's sine wave addition to patterns. Especially since the TAGB is huge in GB. Only the KKWs are bigger. Scott Adkins is from the TAGB, just to name one.


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## dvcochran (Jul 1, 2020)

I am sure it has much to do with the people involved with TAGB and their personal MA influences.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Pretty chocked to learn this. I thought for sure the relations between the ITF and TAGB would result in them teaching Choi's sine wave addition to patterns. Especially since the TAGB is huge in GB. Only the KKWs are bigger. Scott Adkins is from the TAGB, just to name one.


From what I understand, not even all ITF schools do sine wave.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> From what I understand, not even all ITF schools do sine wave.



99% do. I know of no one that doesn't but it's possible.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> 99% do. I know of no one that doesn't but it's possible.



Where do you get your data from?


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> Where do you get your data from?



They can't compete in ITF tournament forms without it, unless they want to lose first round by default. The fact that Choi advocated it and is the founder of organization, etc.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> They can't compete in ITF tournament forms without it, unless they want to lose first round by default. The fact that Choi advocated it and is the founder of organization, etc.



Do you have literature that says that? Because my research suggests that sine wave was mostly phased out and is more of a fringe thing today.  That even Choi stopped advocating for it after some time.  I can look it up and provide sources for this later (when I'm on a PC instead of my phone), but my understanding is sine wave is taught in the minority of ITF schools.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

[


skribs said:


> Do you have literature that says that? Because my research suggests that sine wave was mostly phased out and is more of a fringe thing today.  That even Choi stopped advocating for it after some time.  I can look it up and provide sources for this later (when I'm on a PC instead of my phone), but my understanding is sine wave is taught in the minority of ITF schools.



What do you mean? Any ITF world championship has Sine wave. It's not phased out at all.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> 
> What do you mean? Any ITF world championship has Sine wave. It's not phased out at all.



Sine Wave (ITF TKD)  | Iain Abernethy



> Where did it originate from as I have researched some ITF schools don't teach the Sine Wave to their Forms (Poomsae)?





> Sine wave is (IMHO) the misapplication of a principle (dropping power) across the system to give the system a flavor of its own. It did not exist in TKD until relatively recently (I first saw it in 1998 or 1999) but it came from the top. I don't know if Gen. Choi came up with the idea, but he certainly endorsed it. I imagine it never caught on with some ITF instructors.
> 
> (My information is from conversations with an old instructor of mine who earned a 5th Dan from the ITF under Chuck Seriff and trained personally with Gen. Choi. He bought in to Sine Wave. I played with it for a bit, then dismissed it. It is certainly possible that I misunderstand the concept, but I don't think so. I think the ITF just needed a "characteristic" that distiguished it from the hundreds of independent TKD schools that do the Chang-Hon hyung.)





> As far as I'm concerned it's a concept similar to the falling step as used by Jack Dempsey and sinking from goju ryu and chinese arts. Basically you are dropping your weight into a technique. Some thing that can be useful.
> 
> I started TKD when sine wave was not so prevelent and currently train with someone that doesn't really teach it, but it's always been in TKD but only recently has it become so pronounced. There are certainly many ITF TKD branches that don't use it (hip twist was what I was taught).



Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy



> So which way should you practice? Well this is a question that only instructors can answer, as for a student you have to follow your instructor, or as an instructor you have to follow your association & what they say they want!



Non sine wave form videos?



> because the school I attend, does the ITF forms, but has never done the sine wave. he's been open since 1978





> There are plenty of schools that use the Chang Hon forms but don't use sine wave. You're aware I'm sure that sinewave wasn't emphasised until well after the Chang Hon forms were taught and adopted by many instructors across the world. I daresay in the southen United States there's more people who DON'T practice sinewave than do. My first MA instructor was a Jhoon Rhee student. He did not teach sinewave and neither does Mr. Rhee.



I know I'm going ruffle some feathers here.  ITF practitioners, let's talk about sine wave. : taekwondo



> My ITF training back in the day was in a sort of splinter group so they never taught us sine wave, although when we moved forward we had to move our back foot in a sine-wave shape (say from long stance, the right foot would move forward, sweep in past the left foot and touching it on the way through, then sweep out to form long stance again). Foot never loses contact with the ground. I still have the habit, the current WTF training buddies laugh at me for being a dinosaur.



Thoughts on the "SINE WAVE" as established by GM Choi Hong Hi  in ITF.



> Look, Honestly, I did the SINE WAVE for 10+ years. It is useless. I met spoke with a real close friend(Grandmaster Kim Bok Man) of General Choi and he stated that he thought that sine wave was useless. He approached the General before his passing and and told him. General Choi agreed with him and wanted to revert, take out, the Sinewave technique out of Taekwondo. But the ITF and other related federations were too big and indoctrinated, and basically to late to change because of General Choi's I'llness at that time.



Sine wave - the ups and downs | ITF Taekwon-Do Australia



> When performing ITF patterns, they have a tendency to look faster, even rushed at times, as there is no need for the preparation time Sine Wave requires. This is a charateristic of how the ITF Tul were performed in the early days. Many Taekwon-Do people say. ‘oh it was Taekwon-Do patterns performed in karate fashion’. This is also incorrect, becuase this was the Taekwon-Do of the time, as taught by the Founder, General Choi Hong Hi.



Tons and tons of examples of people who train ITF and don't do sine wave.  This was from a quick Google search.  I spent more time typing the quote tags than I did finding these posts.  If you're going to make such bold claims, please try to be correct.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> Sine Wave (ITF TKD)  | Iain Abernethy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a difference between an ITF school and ITF off-shoot school. Some people who say "ITF" mean that particular style of TKD associated with the ITF federation (Chang hon style) but not technically ITF in terms of certificates.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

TAGB is case in point. An ITF off-shoot.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There's a difference between an ITF school and ITF off-shoot school. Some people who say "ITF" mean that particular style of TKD associated with the ITF federation (Chang hon style) but not technically ITF in terms of certificates.



Can you back that up?


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> Can you back that up?



I already did. All ITF world events include Sine Wave. Thus the only possible ITF school that would not use Sine Wave would be one that does not train for the sport side of Taekwondo at all.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There's a difference between an ITF school and ITF off-shoot school. Some people who say "ITF" mean that particular style of TKD associated with the ITF federation (Chang hon style) but not technically ITF in terms of certificates.



Last time I checked, there were at least three different orgs all insisting that they are the _*real*_ ITF.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Last time I checked, there were at least three different orgs all insisting that they are the _*real*_ ITF.



And they all do Sine Wave. By "real" they refer to lineage.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I already did. All ITF world events include Sine Wave. Thus the only possible ITF school that would not use Sine Wave would be one that does not train for the sport side of Taekwondo at all.


You said it. You didn't provide any literature to prove it, which I asked.

You also claimed that the people who don't do sine wave don't have a real ITF certificate.  Where is your proof of that?

As it stands, it sounds like you're just talking out of where most people sit. Back up what you say with facts.  If you're as roght as you think you are, it should be easy.  Show me some literature or documentation that every ITF school does sine wave, or that every competition requires it.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> You also claimed that the people who don't do sine wave don't have a real ITF certificate.  Where is your proof of that?
> 
> .



No I did not. I wrote that the only way for a school to give ITF certificates, in other words have direct ITF affiliation, yet not practise Sine Wave, would be to abandon ITF competition, or at the very least the forms competitions. So while they are not theoretically bound to it, they are in practise if they ever want students to compete in ITF world events in forms.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And they all do Sine Wave. By "real" they refer to lineage.



Well, not really. Because they each also insist that they are the _*only*_ real ITF.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I did not. I wrote that the only way for a school to give ITF certificates, in other words have direct ITF affiliation, yet not practise Sine Wave, would be to abandon ITF competition, or at the very least the forms competitions. So while they are not theoretically bound to it, they are in practise if they ever want students to compete in ITF world events in forms.


Back it up with evidence. All I have is your hearsay. And the more you talk, the less credible that hearsay sounds.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> Back it up with evidence. All I have is your hearsay. And the more you talk, the less credible that hearsay sounds.



I won't do your homework. If you are not affiliated with any of the ITFs, you can't give out a certificate of any of these ITFs. This is not rocket science.

I won't waste more time on you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I won't do your homework. If you are not affiliated with any of the ITFs, you can't give out a certificate of any of these ITFs. This is not rocket science.
> 
> I won't waste more time on you.


You can very easily be an ITF school though that doesn't require competition forms for advancement (unless it is hardcoded into the organization's syllabus for rank requirements/advancement. Some quick google-fu wasn't able to find that though).


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I won't do your homework. If you are not affiliated with any of the ITFs, you can't give out a certificate of any of these ITFs. This is not rocket science.
> 
> I won't waste more time on you.



Here's the thing: I don't believe you.  I'm perfectly happy not looking anything up, and continuing to believe that you're wrong.  If you want people to take what you say seriously, then back up what you say.

The fact that you're taking this route makes me think even more that you're wrong.  You're just losing credibility.  Everything you say is said only on your authority, and as far as I can tell, you have the same authority as the average white belt.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You can very easily be an ITF school though that doesn't require competition forms for advancement (unless it is hardcoded into the organization's syllabus for rank requirements/advancement. Some quick google-fu wasn't able to find that though).



There is no divide between competition forms and non competion forms. So the normal route is that you either go all in with SW or you reject it. It's a philosophy in TKD just as much it is a sport element.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There is no divide between competition forms and non competion forms. So the normal route is that you either go all in with SW or you reject it. It's a philosophy in TKD just as much it is a sport element.


But is there a set syllabus that all ITF schools are expected to follow for promotions? And if there is, does that syllabus include sine wave?


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There is no divide between competition forms and non competion forms. So the normal route is that you either go all in with SW or you reject it. It's a philosophy in TKD just as much it is a sport element.


So can you reject it and still receive an ITF certificate?


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But is there a set syllabus that all ITF schools are expected to follow for promotions?



More or less. Some might skip throws though. 



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> And if there is, does that syllabus include sine wave?



If Sine wave is taught, then it is part of the syllabus and has to be performed everytime a pattern is performed. So if it's there, it's not optional.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> From what I understand, not even all ITF schools do sine wave.


That might apply to some newer clubs that have not yet adopted the 30+ year old technical parameters.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> That might apply to some newer clubs that have not yet adopted the 30+ year old technical parameters.



Isn't the other way around more likely? Old school club refusing to update itself and stay with the current trend and hostility towards ITF sport TKD?


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Do you have literature that says that? Because my research suggests that sine wave was mostly phased out and is more of a fringe thing today.  That even Choi stopped advocating for it after some time.  I can look it up and provide sources for this later (when I'm on a PC instead of my phone), but my understanding is sine wave is taught in the minority of ITF schools.


In my experience this is not correct.   What is that experience? .   I  was with the ITF From 1974-2010 and during that time officiated at   3 International Championships and one world cup.   I attended 7 international Instructor courses with General Choi in 3 countries (Hosting One)  (Plus 3 taught by others)  Since 2010 Officiated at a couple of Non ITF competitions where International ITF competitors also competed.    I am still well acquainted with various ITF competitors and coaches.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Tons and tons of examples of people who train ITF and don't do sine wave.  This was from a quick Google search.  I spent more time typing the quote tags than I did finding these posts.  If you're going to make such bold claims, please try to be correct.[/QUOTE]

Some of your quotes are from unidentified sources. Some I am not personalty familiar with . Many seem to be those who have a strong but very old Chang Hon lineage   back to instructors who never changed their habits from "Korean Karate" Mr. Anslow (Rayners Lane TKD) and I are well acquainted.  He puts out "Totally TKD"  magazine and has published  a couple of dozen of my articles.   Suffice it to say he is tremendously knowledgeable in many areas but  his history with regard to  SW started much later than mine.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, not really. Because they each also insist that they are the _*only*_ real ITF.


Sir, like politics, you need to differentiate between what some leaders or orgs say and how the populace feels.    Many people from   each of the orgs take a live and let live attitude vis a vis "Who the real ITF is"   Perhaps all as real, or unreal as the others.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> In my experience this is not correct.   What is that experience? .   I  was with the ITF From 1974-2010 and during that time officiated at   3 International Championships and one world cup.   I attended 7 international Instructor courses with General Choi in 3 countries (Hosting One)  (Plus 3 taught by others)  Since 2010 Officiated at a couple of Non ITF competitions where International ITF competitors also competed.    I am still well acquainted with various ITF competitors and coaches.



Which federation did you affiliate yourself with after 2010?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 2, 2020)

If i recall correctly, i dont think TAGB is a ITF orgnisation, its seperate and is just the U.K's regulatory body.  I could be entirely wrong as i havent looked into it that much and finding info about who is affilitated to who is difficult, but treating it as its own body is the best way to go.  Isnt the ATA, in a similar sort of thing?
TAGB may draw more from ITF than WTF though.  (and yes it will always be WTF to me)

If sine wave is what i think it is, it wasnt phased out of the place i went to (not TAGB, but a legitimate ITF offshoot)  If its that weird crouching sort of thing black belts are taught to do.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> So can you reject it and still receive an ITF certificate?


As a rule I would say no. But exceptions apply. I.E. Chuck Norris, Bob Wall and one other received "Special" 8th  Dans.    Is it possible some slip thru the cracks - absolutely.  Videos of their higher level competitions would establish that it is not very likely.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Isn't the other way around more likely? Old school club refusing to update itself and stay with the current trend and hostility towards ITF sport TKD?


By "Newer"   I meant those with an older established habits  that were "Newer" to the organization.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> Isnt the ATA, in a similar sort of thing?
> .


It was a long time ago.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Which federation did you affiliate yourself with after 2010?


I continue to be a USTF member.   In 2010 the ITF told me if I wanted to be an ITF member I would have to choose between them and the USTF.   As far as I was concerned that action violated the ITF constitution. I chose to remain with the USTF..   I had been a member since it's formation.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> If i recall correctly, i dont think TAGB is a ITF orgnisation, its seperate and is just the U.K's regulatory body.  I could be entirely wrong as i havent looked into it that much and finding info about who is affilitated to who is difficult, but treating it as its own body is the best way to go.  Isnt the ATA, in a similar sort of thing?
> TAGB may draw more from ITF than WTF though.  (and yes it will always be WTF to me)
> 
> If sine wave is what i think it is, it wasnt phased out of the place i went to (not TAGB, but a legitimate ITF offshoot)  If its that weird crouching sort of thing black belts are taught to do.



TAGB split from ITF in the 80s but kept everything the same.

The ATA used the Chang Hon/ITF patterns only a year or so before inventing new ones. Their rational was that there wasn't enough kicking in lower grade Chang Hon patterns.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I continue to be a USTF member.   In 2010 the ITF told me if I wanted to be an ITF member I would have to choose between them and the USTF.   As far as I was concerned that action violated the ITF constitution. I chose to remain with the USTF..   I had been a member since it's formation.



Were you surprised that you still got an ITF Grandmaster title post 2010? You are not a celebrity like Chuck Norris.. (no offense).


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But is there a set syllabus that all ITF schools are expected to follow for promotions? And if there is, does that syllabus include sine wave?


The technical Parameters for ITF Technique is set forth in General Choi's encyclopedia.    Sine wave is part of that.   Additionally, many of the Seniors in the ITF orgs spent considerable classroom time at courses with General Choi. - Much more classroom time than many of the ITF Pioneers, getting to know what he wanted thru first hnd observation and not simply reading a book.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Were you surprised that you still got an ITF Grandmaster tite post 2010? You are not a celebrity like Chuck Norris.. (no offense).


My rank and Title is through the USTF.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> My rank and Title is through the USTF.



You are listed on Wiki as an ITF grandmaster

List of taekwondo grandmasters - Wikipedia


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> TAGB split from ITF in the 80s but kept everything the same.
> 
> The ATA used the Chang Hon/ITF patterns only a year or so before inventing new ones. Their rational was that there wasn't enough kicking in lower grade Chang Hon patterns.


I don't believe it was only a year. My belief is based on my experience with so many former ATA people doing the Chang Hon patterns. Would seem to be way to many for only a years worth of the association having taught them. They have a strong  Chung Do Kwan " Flavor"   Since GM H U Lee was a CDK guy.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You are listed on Wiki as an ITF grandmaster
> 
> List of taekwondo grandmasters - Wikipedia


Yes sir, , That's wrong - don't believe everything you find on the internet.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I don't believe it was only a year. My belief is based on my experience with so many former ATA people doing the Chang Hon patterns. Would seem to be way to many for only a years worth of the association having taught them. They have a strong  Chung Do Kwan " Flavor"   Since GM H U Lee was a CDK guy.



Yes. I don't remember but it was a decade tops. Probably 5 years? I don't know the exact nr of years


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Bruce Lees buddy Jhoon Rhee also jettisoned the Chang Hon forms after some time.

A shame.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

I mixed them up with Jhoon Rhee. Jhoon Rhee was the one who only used Chang Hon forms for a few years.

"*During its early years, the ATA used the Chahng-hun style of forms (also used by the International Taekwondo Federation). But although this style was widely accepted in the Taekwondo community, Eternal Grand Master H.U. Lee felt that its forms did not accurately reflect Taekwondo -- particularly the strength and beauty of Taekwondo kicking techniques.

As a result, he believed the forms contributed little to the Taekwondo curriculum. For example, white belts were expected to know front kicks and side kicks, but no front kick appeared until the third (yellow belt) form, and there was no side kick until the form after that! From 1983 to 1990, Eternal Grand Master introduced the eighteen Songahm forms."

About Songahm Taekwondo*


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

So the ATA used Chang hon/ITF forms between 1969-1983.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Another difference I've heard is that the TAGB schools a greater emphasis on kicks than ITF schools. Kicks are first line of defense in basics training while they are considered equal to hands in ITF curriculums. So a TAGB kick  distribution is more like 65%-70% compared to ITF it's more like 50- 60% distribution.. Generally speaking.

I've heard former students give accounts of their training structure and it was different in ways that go beyond coincidences, even though their techniques are the same.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, like politics, you need to differentiate between what some leaders or orgs say and how the populace feels.    Many people from   each of the orgs take a live and let live attitude vis a vis "Who the real ITF is"   Perhaps all as real, or unreal as the others.



I do, because it really is just politics. And I share that attitude; there are lots of MDK organizations, too. Only one claims to be _*The One True Path*_ while the rest of us are pretty much unconcerned. The various ITFs seem to be more fractured than that, at least at the organizational level. The "real" members (in this context) most likely fall into three groups; those who don't really care (probably the largest), those who drink the _*One True Path*_ Kool-Aid, and those who don't know what organization they're in.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I do, because it really is just politics. And I share that attitude; there are lots of MDK organizations, too. Only one claims to be _*The One True Path*_ while the rest of us are pretty much unconcerned. The various ITFs seem to be more fractured than that, at least at the organizational level. The "real" members (in this context) most likely fall into three groups; those who don't really care (probably the largest), those who drink the _*One True Path*_ Kool-Aid, and those who don't know what organization they're in.



My ITF lineage (North Korean) filed a lawsuit to another one for using the ITF logo. It's so silly.

Just to tease them I asked about entering another ITF groups tournament to which my group replied: You just don't do that.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

I would like to meet the poor district attorney who gets bogged down in that rabbit hole


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## skribs (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> In my experience this is not correct.   What is that experience? .   I  was with the ITF From 1974-2010 and during that time officiated at   3 International Championships and one world cup.   I attended 7 international Instructor courses with General Choi in 3 countries (Hosting One)  (Plus 3 taught by others)  Since 2010 Officiated at a couple of Non ITF competitions where International ITF competitors also competed.    I am still well acquainted with various ITF competitors and coaches.



I'll defer to you, because I know your history and qualifications.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> My ITF lineage (North Korean) filed a lawsuit to another one for using the ITF logo. It's so silly.
> 
> Just to tease them I asked about entering another ITF groups tournament to which my group replied: You just don't do that.



I have the court decisions - not what happened. All pretty much  water under the bridge since they entered into a settlement agreement to live and let live.   Some small changes to some logos were made.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have the court decisions - not what happened. All pretty much  water under the bridge since they entered into a settlement agreement to live and let live.   Some small changes to some logos were made.



GM Weiss is all knowing in the ITF. 

Can you provide us with a link of the modified logo? I don't know which one it is.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'll defer to you, because I know your history and qualifications.


 Sir, thank you. For what it's worth though no longer having official affiliation since I am near O'Hare airport I get lots of visitors, transplants etc.   Last fall I hosted an ITF Instructor from Poland for a couple of classes. Previously I hosted one from Canada.   I have had, transplants,  tourist visitors, people here attending college, here on business etc. from many states in the USA as well as Poland, Canada,  Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia, Siberia, Argentina  and probably some others I forget. There are only very small technical differences.   I had a Non ITF but Chang Hon visitor  watch a pattern and then had people state where they learned it.   The Answers aside fro My School included. Canada, Poland, Siberia.   His comment was that if he had not been told he would have guessed they were all my students since white belt.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Then Dirty Dog knows the answer to the age old question. The North Korean lineage is the true ITF according to the court


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> GM Weiss is all knowing in the ITF.
> 
> Can you provide us with a link of the modified logo? I don't know which one it is.


I don't have a link. I am sure various cites wll have different examples. Multi Color ITF,   Korean on the legs of the uniform instead of "ITF"    The main "Fist'; logo is the same.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Then Dirty Dog knows the answer to the age old question. The North Korean lineage is the true ITF according to the court


I suggest you read the decision - Not really what the court said.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Then Dirty Dog knows the answer to the age old question. The North Korean lineage is the true ITF according to the court



Um, no...


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Um, no...



Why not?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

I have never heard the term "sine wave" before. I Google it and find that clip. It seems to me that he tries to borrow the counter force from the ground.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why not?



Because that isn't what the court said. And even if it was, there are other courts. In other countries.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have never heard the term "sine wave" before. I Google it and find that clip. It seems to me that he tries to borrow the counter force from the ground.



Bad illustration IMO

It's supposed to be more seamless,like this.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Bad illustration IMO
> 
> It's supposed to be more seamless,like this.


Should power come from:

- bottom -> up,
- back -> front?


----------



## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should power come from:
> 
> - bottom -> up,
> - back -> front?



Yes, that's how I view it. I'll pass this one over to Earl Weiss, though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes, that's how I view it. I'll pass this one over to Earl Weiss, though.


Should his back leg move from bend -> straight?

It seems to me that the power transfer from his back leg up to his hip is not noticeable.  What's your opinion on this?


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It seems to me that the power transfer from his back leg up to his hip is not noticeable.  What's your opinion on this?



I see it as a consequence of an intentionally higher stance than you are used to see in for example Shotokan Karate. It is well known to make some compromises with power in favor of more flexible follow up for kicking. This is the best theory I can offer you at this moment.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Here's how I do it.

I'm by no means an authority.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)




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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> intentionally higher stance ... to make some compromises with power in favor of more flexible follow up for kicking.


IMO, if low stance can generate more power than the high stance, the low stance should be used for training.

I agree that MA is all about compromise and trade off. But if we only talk about power generation training, we should try to generate power to the maximum even if we have to sacrifice speed and mobility by doing so.

When you try to

- smash a fly, you try to achieve the maximum speed. You should not concern about your power at that moment.
- knock down a wall, you try to achieve the maximum power. You should not concern about your speed at that moment.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I agree that MA is all about compromise and trade off. But if we talk about power generation training, we should try to generate power to the maximum even if we have to sacrifice speed and mobility by doing so.
> 
> .



I disagree. If you are in a self defence situation, you want to fire off and get out of there. Not maximize power that might backfire on you - break your hand, gass you out, etc.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> if we only talk about power generation training



Forms is not power training. Power training is on mitts and there the mechanics is a bit more loose and less rigid.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I disagree. If you are in a self defence situation, you want to fire off and get out of there. Not maximize power that might backfire on you - break your hand, gass you out, etc.


I assume we are talking about training (no compromise) and not combat (with compromise).


----------



## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I assume we are talking about training (no compromise) and not combat (with compromise).



But you did in the context of forms which is not power training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Forms is not power training. Power training is on mitts and there the mechanics is a bit more loose and less rigid.


Even when you punch on heavy bag, your body should still try to generate the maximum power. The body method should be the same whether you hit on a target, or just hit into the thin air.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But you did in the context of forms which is not power training.


Should the form training help one to develop the correct "body method" so he can generate the maximum power?

What's the difference between a side kick into the thin air vs. a side kick to hit on a heavy bag? I assume both "body method" should be the same.

Why should you treat punching differently from kicking?


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The body method should be the same whether you hit on a target, or just hit into the thin air.



That would dilute the art aspect of martial arts and is totally uncalled for. Boxers don't go for power when they shadow box and their body mechanics is different as well. It's not meant to be power training.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should the form training help one to develop the correct "body method" so he can generate the maximum power?
> 
> What's the difference between a side kick into the thin air vs. a side kick to hit on a heavy bag? I assume both "body method" should be the same.



Kicks are indeed less explosive in forms in order to not blow out your limbs since they lack cushion from a target. Against targets you employ more torque.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That would dilute the art aspect of martial arts and is totally uncalled for. Boxers don't go for power when they shadow box and their body mechanics is different as well. It's not meant to be power training.


Again, do you do your side kick any differently between

- kick into the thin air vs.
- kick on a heavy bag?


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again, do you do your side kick any differently between
> 
> - kick into the thin air vs.
> - kick on a heavy bag?



In patterns I do kick differently, yes. If I want to prep for a sparring session, I will shadow kick the same way I spar.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But you did in the context of forms which is not power training.


What's the purpose of the "sine wave" if it's not used for power generation? May be I misunderstand it's purpose completely.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the purpose for "sine wave" if it's not used for power generation?



It can be a tool used in self defense for forward motions. It is also a way to create harmony and flow in the pattern delivery.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It can be a tool used in self defense for forward motions. It is also a way to create harmony and flow in the pattern delivery.


What you have stated is a bit too abstract for me. 

- forward motion.
- create harmony and flow.

So the purpose of the sine wave is not for power generation - borrow the counter force from the ground, transfer through back leg, body, arm, and reach to the fist.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So the purpose of the sine wave is not for power generation - borrow the counter force from the ground, transfer through back leg, body, arm, and reach to the fist.



 It can be. I had muscle memory from SW when trying out boxing. And there are boxers who sink into punches in a SW type of way from time to time.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

My body mechanics can change depending on context just as my stance. It isn't fixed. Nothing is fixed when applied.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 3, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again, do you do your side kick any differently between
> 
> - kick into the thin air vs.
> - kick on a heavy bag?


Yes, - mostly - Kicks on heavy bag, can be done in a variety of ways as can  kicks in the air  and kicks to target pads.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 3, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the purpose of the "sine wave" if it's not used for power generation? May be I misunderstand it's purpose completely.


IMO the "Purpose of Sine wave" Tends to put the "Cart Before the Horse"    Sine wave describes the smooth rise an fall of the head as the knee or knees are flexed to facilitate power in a hand technique.   Various texts on Boxing reference punching power coming from the legs, so the concept is not unique to General Choi - only the terminology is - convenient metaphor to contrast with no knee flexion - Flat Wave, and  Sharply angled motion- Saw tooth wave.      This knee flexion can facilitate power thru what is sometimes referred to as Kinetic  or Closed Chain linking, and since certain motions of the  Human Body tend to have various parts wok in concert,   (Exhaling on the exertion is a common item)   the knee flexion can help use the larger muscles of the hips and abdomen as part of the twist -  no I don't have scientific data - but I googled some slow motion videos of Floyd Mayweather and I will leave it to other to see if they think his power shots (As opposed to flicking jabs) use any / all of these concepts.   So, back to my initial comment.   The purpose is to generate max power when applicable - this is done (partly) thru knee flexion, as a result the head moves up and down - sine wave.


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## Acronym (Jul 3, 2020)

Whenever you see a boxer throw a mid range jab to the body, he is using SW.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Whenever you see a boxer throw a mid range jab to the body, he is using SW.


I do not know how anyone could make such a generalization.


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## Acronym (Jul 4, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I do not know how anyone could make such a generalization.



You can't slip one through in any other way due to the range.


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## dvcochran (Jul 4, 2020)

Donato Nardizzi has a Youtube channel that does a good job of explaining sinewave ideology. It is from an advocating point of view but in no way overbearing about it. 
Being a tech/science minded person I appreciate trying to apply/reconcile geometry to MA movements. For some people it can help the learning phase make more sense. 
From my experience I have seen people/styles take the idea too far and instead of moving in a smooth sinusoidal wave with a rounded peak they move in very steep inclination/declination with sharp peaks, lessening the effect.
I also think it is prone to leak to foreshadowing, letting your opponent know something is coming. There is just too much "wind up" for me. If you watch the Youtube channel I mentioned you will see some instances where he will drop first so that he can rise so that he can fall. Just too much preamble. IMHO 

By in large, I think most all styles use the principal, or at least parts of it, where applicable. The most common being a stepping motion, particularly a rear leg step.
I would say the least applicable may be something like a straight boxers jab (not a dig). I am having a hard time applying sinewave to that type of strike. 
If your style teaches long(er) stances there will naturally be fall in you elevation when stepping. Gravity, velocity, mass, etc... can create value to this motion IF you have learned how to apply them.


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## Acronym (Jul 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Donato Nardizzi has a Youtube channel that does a good job of explaining sinewave ideology. .



Not a huge fan of his pattern delivery, though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 4, 2020)

The sine wave is a repeatable pattern. It's like to beat a drum in constant speed. But a form training should not follow a predictable speed pattern. A form training speed should like to play the music.

When you drive a car, you may increase speed and decrease speed depending on the road condition. You don't want to drive a car with square wheels in "slow constant speed" that turn 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, and ...


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## Acronym (Jul 4, 2020)

I detest Sine Wave deliveres that are slow and tensed. They tend to look baggy and contrived. Sine Wave is supposed to be as natural as walking.


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## Acronym (Jul 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> From my experience I have seen people/styles take the idea too far and instead of moving in a smooth sinusoidal wave with a rounded peak they move in very steep inclination/declination with sharp peaks, lessening the effect.



Which is not how the illustration look. What we've ended up with is a caricature of SW

Choi supposedly agreed on his death bed that it had been exaggerated in later years.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> very steep inclination/declination with sharp peaks,...


When you throw 3 punches, you can throw:

- fast, fast, fast.
- slow, fast, fast,
- fast, slow, fast,
- ...

IMO, to train your form in constant speed can be too boring and not realistic.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Choi supposedly agreed on his death bed that it had been exaggerated in later years.


It's a good idea for power generation if lower stance can be used. In high stance, the leg bend and leg straight are not noticeable.

I like the coordination punch with leading foot landing. I can see that the sine wave training can help one to uniform his body in one union. All body parts start to move at the same time, and all body parts stop at the same time. I believe this is the main purpose for the sine wave training.


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## Acronym (Jul 4, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's a good idea for power generation if lower stance can be used. In high stance, the leg bend and leg straight are not noticeable.
> 
> I like the coordination punch with leading foot landing. I can see that the sine wave training can help one to uniform his body in one union. All body parts start to move at the same time, and all body parts stop at the same time. I believe this is the main purpose for the sine wave training.



Knee higher facilitate a potential front kick follow-up with the other leg. The higher it is, the smoother and faster you can execute it.

If you trained Shotokan with stances even lower than default, like extremely low for beginners, ITF-style is very welcoming. It isn't penalized either if you bend the front leg slightly more.


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## Acronym (Jul 4, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>



He seems to be inconsistent in how much he bends for each technique, but he's overall a solid practitioner and a worthy World Champion in forms.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jul 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> ................ I have seen people/styles take the idea too far and instead of moving in a smooth sinusoidal wave with a rounded peak they move in very steep inclination/declination with sharp peaks, lessening the effect.
> .


Someone did a comparison of the Videos General Choi Supervised in the 1990's - If you find them they are the ones with Black Backgrounds  versus  later videos with the conclusion that the performer's motions have become more exagerated.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Which is not how the illustration look. What we've ended up with is a caricature of SW
> 
> Choi supposedly agreed on his death bed that it had been exaggerated in later years.


General Choi  supposedly said lots of stuff on his death bed.   Stuff he never mentioned or alluded to before.


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## Acronym (Jul 4, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Someone did a comparison of the Videos General Choi Supervised in the 1990's - If you find them they are the ones with Black Backgrounds  versus  later videos with the conclusion that the performer's motions have become more exagerated.



If you are referring to these ones, then I have to say that they are also a very poor representation. The performers are fine martial artists, though. 






Compare with this (denis front knee bending is once again inconsistent and frequently not bent enough, but other than that superb


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Acronym said:
> 
> 
> > If you are referring to these ones, then I have to say that they are also a very poor representation. The performers are fine martial artists, though.
> ...


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## Acronym (Jul 5, 2020)

The performer's exhibit the infamous bouncing that we've been discussion was a distortion of Sine Wave. If there is nothing better to compare it with at the time, it's not surprising that someone doing it won a world event.

General Choi was a promoter of the system and the source of much of the ideas, but he did not neccesarily set the exact parameters for Sine Wave.

We have the illustration. If one examines the practitioner instead of the actual sine wave, which is interposed as a metaphor, he does not exhibit a bounce


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> General Choi was a promoter of the system and the source of much of the ideas, but he did not neccesarily set the exact parameters for Sine Wave.
> 
> View attachment 22953



You state General Choi did not set parameters but use the illustration he provides from his book? 

I'm sorry - This is wrong. General Choi was not simply a promoter. Although he had many assist him and provide input. , he was THE Founder. He set all technical parameters.   If you think it was someone else, who was that person or people?


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## Acronym (Jul 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I'm sorry - This is wrong. General Choi was not simply a promoter. Although he had many assist him and provide input. , he was THE Founder. He set all technical parameters.   If you think it was someone else, who was that person or people?



General Choi was head and founder of the Chang Hon style of TaeKwonDo, and while  the parameters had to be approved by him, he did not tune all of them. Sine Wave was not apart of Chang Hon TaeKwonDo when it was first conceived, making the question of who the founder is not the pressing issue.


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## Acronym (Jul 5, 2020)

This guy is good


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> This guy is good


This clip make me to think the following questions:

Do you need to

- add power generation into your defense (such as a block)?
- use constant speed for both of your offense (kick/punch) and your defense (block)?
- keep your body on the same level all the time? What if you need to drop down to dodge a high kick?
- ...

Also if you need to throw 3 punches with 1 step, which punch will your foot landing coordinate with (the 1st punch, the 2nd punch, or the 3rd punch)?


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## Acronym (Jul 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This clip make me to think the following questions:
> 
> Do you need to
> 
> ...



I'm not going to adress your points, but he does have power "leakage" on and off. I was strictly referring to his sine wave transitions.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> General Choi was head and founder of the Chang Hon style of TaeKwonDo, and while  the parameters had to be approved by him, he did not tune all of them. Sine Wave was not apart of Chang Hon TaeKwonDo when it was first conceived, making the question of who the founder is not the pressing issue.



If he did not "tune" all the parameters who do you think did? 

The term did not exist. What the term describes existed since the 1972 Text  which refers to springing action of the knee joint.


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## Acronym (Jul 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> If he did not "tune" all the parameters who do you think did?
> 
> .



One of his masters performing what he had sketched/envisioned as a concept. And in some cases he might have done all of it.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> One of his masters performing what he had sketched/envisioned as a concept. And in some cases he might have done all of it.


You might want to check out the third  from last paragraph of this article to see how it was described.   https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...BIILKv64hzrcOrdp_E0l6cxwu43qU=&attredirects=0


----------



## Acronym (Jul 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> You might want to check out the third  from last paragraph of this article to see how it was described.   https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/ntkdacad/files/NamTaeHiTKDTimesJan.2000.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cpY4lKfzkW7sYhQ6bFpQlghc3RshE0beSpIIxhG6B0RoIE37OQgcUzofRFB46Tfprn1o2-mgS2HgHpuf3Yvnfj3CUKjDJj7wPFp6F4bvAQF8jVlEyDyowe_upZ3kL5gbVl--IV6cNTk98ilyleYRw_CSfIn6zquPkOJ126UKvlWaYQd_Djq_jk_qqSb7cSj--b41vkjs-k_ovb7vnBJAmBIILKv64hzrcOrdp_E0l6cxwu43qU=&attredirects=0



While I do that, you might want to check this out


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 6, 2020)

If this is from the 1959 book, as you said - Books have mistakes.   (As General Choi acknowledged as well.)    That is why they were corrected in later editions.   Having the thumb side of the fist at the centerline,  was a conscious choice designed to "protect as well as Block"   as opposed to leaving it exposed in the Shotokan. / Okinawan Block where the fist was over the knee.


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## Acronym (Jul 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> If this is from the 1959 book, as you said - Books have mistakes.   (As General Choi acknowledged as well.)    That is why they were corrected in later editions.   Having the thumb side of the fist at the centerline,  was a conscious choice designed to "protect as well as Block"   as opposed to leaving it exposed in the Shotokan. / Okinawan Block where the fist was over the knee.



We don't know what is a misrepresentation compared to an evolution of the system. It would be highly peculiar if Choi looked at these pictures and didn't notice that they were nothing like the system he later devised. Especially since you claim he did tune all the parameters


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> .................. It would be highly peculiar if Choi looked at these pictures and didn't notice that they were nothing like the system he later devised.



Who says he didn't?   One of the reasons for later editions being different was to improve  the terminology and illustrations of what was previously used.


----------



## Acronym (Jul 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Who says he didn't?   One of the reasons for later editions being different was to improve  the terminology and illustrations of what was previously used.



I'm saying he didn't. What you propose as an
explanation is preposterous. General Choi did not purposely leave in various inaccurate illustrations (not just one) to justify further editions. It wouldn't make sense either since the first edition was only in Korean. There's also no way he was misses all of this and takes notice once it's published. Choi was very meticulous in various seminar, and the amount of glaring errors he would miss here does not make one bit sense.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jul 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'm saying he didn't. What you propose as an
> explanation is preposterous. General Choi did not purposely leave in various inaccurate illustrations (not just one) to justify further editions. It wouldn't make sense either since the first edition was only in Korean. There's also no way he was misses all of this and takes notice once it's published. Choi was very meticulous in various seminar, and the amount of glaring errors he would miss here does not make one bit sense.



 Sir, the difference between you and I is you come to conclusions based upon what you have read.   I come to the conclusions based upon what I have read, seen and what General Choi told me.   For instance when I had him sign my 1965 edition he said "Many Mistakes in that book. "    The need to get the books out trumped the need to have them be perfect which would have delayed things.  GM Vitale also references this with regard to the 1965 book which only contains 20 patterns saying the last 4 had been done but due to production   deadlines they ran out of time to have them included.  Don't view what it took to have a book printed in published in 1959-1972   as being anything like what it takes o do one in the digital age.   There were also various "Technical correction bulletins"  put out as part of the ITF newsletter indicating errors in texts and what the corrections should have been.  LAter editions corrected those items. 

There was also an IIC where I passed along a question about an apparent error. We reviewed the text and he told (Now GM ) Phap Lu  to make a note of it.   To be corrected later.  But it never happened.  There were other instances where he was asked questions about something in the text and he said "Book Wrong".

>.General Choi did not purposely leave in various inaccurate illustrations (not just one) to justify further editions.<<<

That is not what I said.


----------



## Acronym (Jul 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> . "    The need to get the books out trumped the need to have them be perfect
> .



Perfect? The original Korean edition is Shotokan reckapaged in new patterns. There's not just a deviation here and there. What makes the TGB case interesting is that they did not split until the 80s, yet Shotokan residuals are still in their system (annoyingly). I say annoyingly because it would be preferable both in spirit and practise if the Chang Hon style of TaeKwondDo was uniform outside of Sine Wave.





So why despite being ITF affiliated all the way to the 80s do they use the Shotokan blocks? They have Chois picture in the background  and openly accepts him as the founder just as much as the ITF folks. The only reasonable account I can offer is that they neglected the encyclopedia updates, for whatever reason, rather than their masters having permanent, unalterable muscle memories for 20 years.....!

It's also possible that they learned the new blocks and then decided to go back the Shotokan blocks when splitting from the ITF. It's however not clear what purpose that would serve except immense confusion.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jul 6, 2020)

Quick story - People don't like change.  1990 was my first IIC. I took note of 150 things I had to fix.   (I had been doing the General's system since 1971 and had some of the most senior instructors in the world).    I went back to my club and start talking about all this stuff we needed to fix.  .   Plenty of people said what they had been doing was good for 10 or more years and did not want to change.


----------



## Acronym (Jul 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Quick story - People don't like change.  1990 was my first IIC. I took note of 150 things I had to fix.   (I had been doing the General's system since 1971 and had some of the most senior instructors in the world).    I went back to my club and start talking about all this stuff we needed to fix.  .   Plenty of people said what they had been doing was good for 10 or more years and did not want to change.



So how did Choi manage to more or less universally implement Sine Wave into the ITF syllabus, eventually?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jul 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So how did Choi manage to more or less universally implement Sine Wave into the ITF syllabus, eventually?


In the late 1980's  the ITF started a program of conducting IICs throughout the world. (There were earlier ones but very few for the "Super Seniors)  My last IIC cert which is the last one General Choi did was #187-   so he did 187 of them Those I know who competed internationally said that in that 1980's there were large  variations in the way things were one.   Remember that prior to this we did not have easily accessible video via internet or even home players.   These same people competing or coaching said by the early 1990's  differences were very small.   My own experience having done what we called "Spring Style" since the 1970's was that it was somewhat different that what I saw him teach at my first IIC  in 1990. Although I understood it, I had some difficulty adjusting my habits.  I actually flew in someone who was a better physical specimen that I for a seminar to show and teach my students.   It probably took me about 6 months of working at it to  refine my habits.


----------



## Acronym (Jul 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> In the late 1980's  the ITF started a program of conducting IICs throughout the world. (There were earlier ones but very few for the "Super Seniors)  My last IIC cert which is the last one General Choi did was #187-   so he did 187 of them Those I know who competed internationally said that in that 1980's there were large  variations in the way things were one.   Remember that prior to this we did not have easily accessible video via internet or even home players.   These same people competing or coaching said by the early 1990's  differences were very small.   My own experience having done what we called "Spring Style" since the 1970's was that it was somewhat different that what I saw him teach at my first IIC  in 1990. Although I understood it, I had some difficulty adjusting my habits.  I actually flew in someone who was a better physical specimen that I for a seminar to show and teach my students.   It probably took me about 6 months of working at it to  refine my habits.



But weren't the encyclopedias accessible world wide? What adjustments did you have to make from knee spring to sine wave?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jul 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But weren't the encyclopedias accessible world wide? What adjustments did you have to make from knee spring to sine wave?



I think the encyclopedia has a publication date of 1983 but in my experience most of the texts were not readily available until a year or 2 after whatever the publication date was.   Then you have the delay in people getting them.   The CD ROM with pattern videos became available in the late 1990's. . Then you have the issue of difficulty when it comes to describing a 3 dimensional motion in a 2 dimensional medium.   I think I mentioned previously how we did not understand  "Hooking Kick" the defensive on in Ko Dang and Ju Che, or how the Pick shape kick differed from downward kick from text illustrations. 

Prior to the course we  raised our heels off the floor in sitting stance and set them down again as we punched.   This was not needed when knees were flexed.   Another example would be a stationary walking stance   where we would now raise the rear heel, and bend the rear leg to allow the knee to flex and set the heel back down as we punched.  (I don't recall what I did before then.)  At this time (1990) General Choi would say "Up / Down" But as I watched him -say for example in a sitting stance punch there would first be a  slight relaxed Downward motion. As I related I flew a guy in from the course to do a seminar on this because he was one of those guys I love to hate.  He has better physicality than I and he can seemingly  see something and copy it without conscious thought.   I asked him about the initial slight down and at first he said "NO" but then as he thought about what he was doing he said yes. - but just a little. Sr. GM Sereff relates traveling with General Choi not long after the course and taking note of the initial slight down.    At subsequent courses, the same method was shown, but now explained as down up down.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jul 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Quick story - People don't like change.  1990 was my first IIC. I took note of 150 things I had to fix.   (I had been doing the General's system since 1971 and had some of the most senior instructors in the world).    I went back to my club and start talking about all this stuff we needed to fix.  .   Plenty of people said what they had been doing was good for 10 or more years and did not want to change.


I think this is more an issue in martial arts (or other organizations) where changes are dictated from the top down. If you've been doing something one way for ten years and you're happy with how it works, then when some grand poobah at the top of the org chart says "now throw that out and start doing it this way" you may not be so motivated to jump in to the new method.

BJJ techniques evolve at a fairly fast pace. A lot of fundamental techniques I learned 20 years ago have changed significantly since then, in some cases using completely different body mechanics. The difference is that there is no authority dictating the change. People (fighters/competitors/instructors) have just discovered improvements that make the techniques work better. If you don't keep up with the evolutionary process then you're likely to get your *** kicked by the people who do. That's generally enough incentive that we're eager to learn the new methods.


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## Acronym (Jul 8, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think this is more an issue in martial arts (or other organizations) where changes are dictated from the top down. If you've been doing something one way for ten years and you're happy with how it works, then when some grand poobah at the top of the org chart says "now throw that out and start doing it this way" you may not be so motivated to jump in to the new method.
> 
> BJJ techniques evolve at a fairly fast pace. A lot of fundamental techniques I learned 20 years ago have changed significantly since then, in some cases using completely different body mechanics. The difference is that there is no authority dictating the change. People (fighters/competitors/instructors) have just discovered improvements that make the techniques work better. If you don't keep up with the evolutionary process then you're likely to get your *** kicked by the people who do. That's generally enough incentive that we're eager to learn the new methods.



Western Boxing has evolved too. Although it might surprise people to know there are boxing instructors who insist on certain mechanics. I was for instance not allowed to throw vertical hooks on the heavy bag, only horizontal. That type of dogmatism is usually associated with TMA.


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Western Boxing has evolved too. Although it might surprise people to know there are boxing instructors who insist on certain mechanics. I was for instance not allowed to throw vertical hooks on the heavy bag, only horizontal. That type of dogmatism is usually associated with TMA.


I agree with what Tony Dismukes said as far as techniques/teachings changing over time. As information became more readily available, so did better understanding of how to do just about everything, including MA techniques and western boxing. 
Assuming, you are talking about fist orientation, I doubt that has anything to do with why you were told not to throw vertical hook punches.


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## Acronym (Jul 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I agree with what Tony Dismukes said as far as techniques/teachings changing over time. As information became more readily available, so did better understanding of how to do just about everything, including MA techniques and western boxing.
> Assuming, you are talking about fist orientation, I doubt that has anything to do with why you were told not to throw vertical hook punches.



 Vertical and horizon tal refers to the angle of the elbow. There is also a distinction in fist configuration, however, called european vs american hook


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Vertical and horizon tal refers to the angle of the elbow. There is also a distinction in fist configuration, however, called european vs american hook


So were you in one area of the world trying to learn from someone in the other area of the world?


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## Acronym (Jul 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> So were you in one area of the world trying to learn from someone in the other area of the world?



I was not referring to the positioning of the fist, but that is also something boxing coaches differ on.. Regardless of which country you're in


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Vertical and horizon tal refers to the angle of the elbow. There is also a distinction in fist configuration, however, called european vs american hook


Wouldn't a vertical elbow punch be an uppercut?


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## Acronym (Jul 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Wouldn't a vertical elbow punch be an uppercut?



No. The thumb is facing you in an uppercut and you are you doing an upward punch. A vertical hook travels up and to th side side, elbow down.


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## Acronym (Jul 8, 2020)

Turning punch in ITF but with the elbow down is a vertical hook in boxing.


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No. The thumb is facing you in an uppercut and you are you doing an upward punch. A vertical hook travels up and to th side side, elbow down.


I have never seen/heard of the punch you are describing. Cannot picture how it would even be possible. Can you post a video?


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## Acronym (Jul 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I have never seen/heard of the punch you are describing. Cannot picture how it would even be possible. Can you post a video?



It's exactly like doing the turning punch in ITF but neglecting the horizontal angle of the elbow.


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