# New Gyokko Ryu Book



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Dec 20, 2010)

I searched the forum to see if this has been discussed and I didn't find anything on it. But I just came across this book on Ebay and I bought it.                         www.bujinkan-densho.de/index.php?site=bujinkan_us 

I haven't received it yet but if anyones already purchased one and read it I would to hear your opinion on the book. Thanks.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 21, 2010)

Hey Pablo,

Yeah, I have it. It's an English translation of a book they presented in German first, all in all, not bad. The diagrams are not entirely accurate, and there are some interpretations of kata that I don't entirely agree with, but the main reason I got it was for a cross-reference with other versions of the Gyokko Densho I already have.

The intro is interesting, and the glossary is well done, with the kanji supplied (as well as the kanji for each individual kata), and it wasn't too expensive, so I was pretty happy with it. Apparently there is going to be Koto Ryu next, and others to follow (I'd probably expect Shinden Fudo, myself).


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## Muawijhe (Dec 21, 2010)

I do not have the book, but according to the website you linked us Kukishinden Ryu will be the next available (the Deutsche Ausgabe is currently in print), with Togakure Ryu to follow.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 21, 2010)

Ah, the page has changed since last I was there.... these should be fun. Honestly, I wasn't expecting them to go to Togakure so early, it has such a limited Taijutsu aspect to it. Still, very cool.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (Dec 21, 2010)

Cool. Thanks Chris and thanks Muawijhe for your replies...Sounds like I"m going to enjoy the book.


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## gregtca (Dec 21, 2010)

These are interesting reading 

http://www.hotfilesearch.com/ryu-pdf.html

Hope they might help in your journey

Greg


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## Troy Wideman (Dec 21, 2010)

I looked at the Takagi Yoshin Ryu download. And as I said before some of the patterns preformed by Manaka don't look like Ishitani or Mizuta. I know he received menkyo kaiden but I am confused as to why his patterns are so different. 
The download shows some patterns in the okuden sections which are shinden fudo ryu, not takagi yoshin ryu.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 23, 2010)

Took a look at the Gyokko Ryu book download, didn't seem too bad except for a few differences from what we've been shown in terms of targetting etc. Mind you that could just be my lack of experience with the techniques talking. 

However according to my friend, the Togakure book was funny! Seems one of the techniques (at work now so can't download the file and look at the name) shows a picture of a ninja in full kabuki costume "hiding" on top of a wall with one leg hanging over at perfect eye level to his samurai attacker before leaping out to kick the attacker before going back to hiding on top of the wall. 

Hopefully no one is trying to teach themselves anything based on these books!


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## Chris Parker (Dec 24, 2010)

Er, hate to tell you this, Supra, but the kata Shige Gaeshi and Shige Dori are legitmate kata of Togakure Ryu, found within the Hiden Gata section. They fit in with the rest of the Ryu quite well, actually, but they do need to be looked at within context, and for the reasons they exist. Wait until July onwards for these things.... but it's not funny when you know what it actually is, so you know.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 24, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Er, hate to tell you this, Supra, but the kata Shige Gaeshi and Shige Dori are legitmate kata of Togakure Ryu, found within the Hiden Gata section. They fit in with the rest of the Ryu quite well, actually, but they do need to be looked at within context, and for the reasons they exist. Wait until July onwards for these things.... but it's not funny when you know what it actually is, so you know.


 
Will do Sensei! Sorry didn't mean to say the entire book was funny, more the images of the shozoku clad ninja. I still haven't had a chance to look at that particular book myself, due to extended working hours over the holidays so cannot put forward any particular thoughts at this stage. That being said, as you mentioned, I think I'll leave it till we cover things in class and take notes based on what we cover so I'm not jumping ahead. It's the reason I've only looked at the Gyokko book so far (given we've just spent 6 months on the Ryu)


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## Chris Parker (Dec 24, 2010)

The Togakure download is the Jinenkan web-store list, with the kata  being demonstrated by Manaka Sensei. He wears a dark blue keikogi with Hakama tucked into his tabi, and a scarf tied over his head. It's not exactly the same as a movie-style Shinobi Shozoku, and this manner of dressing was semi-common in old Japan. There are numerous ukiyo-e and so forth depicting this, by the way.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 24, 2010)

Wow, I totally rescind my previous post about the book being funny then! Apologies to any students who might have taken offense.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 25, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Wow, I totally rescind my previous post about the book being funny then! Apologies to any students who might have taken offense.



I know neither the book mentioned nor much about Togakure ryu, but I do know that Manaka sensei is a traditionalist when it comes to training, and he follows the scrolls very closely. So if I would see him do anything, my first guess would not be that it was made up or added for the hollywood favor.

Generally it pays not to judge things if you are not certain about whether what you think is correct or not. That way your sensei does not have to make you eat your words in public.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 25, 2010)

Point well taken Bruno! As I said I had not seen the book myself, I've only looked at the Gyokko Ryu book so far as that's what we've just covered. Also I had no idea that it was Manaka Sensei himself in the pictures. 

That's no excuse though, you're right of course, I was wrong to post something that came across as judgmental or belittling based on something a friend said. I took his word on it as he's had a lot of spare time recently and supposedly was doing a lot of reading on the topic etc. Won't happen again


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## Chris Parker (Dec 25, 2010)

Just out of interest, would I know the friend who's done a fair bit of reading no the topic? Send an email if you'd rather not put it up here, of course, my private messages are rather full at present....


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 25, 2010)

Sure Sensei, Mr. Evans. Not saying he's specifically studied any of the ryu-ha (I honestly don't know) but he has been studying the overall histories etc. Without wanting to cause any trouble for him so to speak, the following is the message I received from him:

I had a flick through togakure complete
liam is suspicious
theres  one technique where its like, disappear onto a wall, the top of the  wall mind you and when an enemy comes past on clearly some sort of  stroll you fly out and kick them and then go back tohiding on top of the  wall -_-, it.has.photos. its not taking cover in the shadows
its broad  daylight, he's dressed as a "ninja" and his leg is  hanging over the edge of the wall in the eyeline of his "samurai"  attacker"


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## Chris Parker (Dec 25, 2010)

Ha, okay. I'll see if I can explain it a little more to you both when we return in a few weeks... but it's suffice to say that the "daylight" aspect is mainly so you can see what is going on in the photo. The "shadow" principle is covered elsewhere in the Ryu-ha's teachings (along with other aspects), that particular part of the Ryu is dealing with it's Taijutsu. Ideally it all gets used together, especially in kata like the Shige forms, but for demonstration purposes it is photographed so you can see what's happening.

Oh, and his description is a bit out as well, the entire kata involves teaching how to obtain the hiding spot, how to move from it, and how to get down and away. A wall is only one representation of the principles. Feel free to send him a link to this thread....


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 25, 2010)

Have done Sensei. I've also been telling him for the past month to find his login details (he signed up and then never visited so doesn't remember them) so maybe this will be a good motivator. 

Again, apologies for the way my post came across. It should have been phrased a question rather than a statement. I'll be mindful of it in future and avoid making judgment calls on things I have no basis in.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 25, 2010)

Completely seperate area of study, but one of the pieces of advice I live by is "never judge". I may take you through some of that at some point (at present a couple of the City guys are being taken through some initial bits). Other than that, don't stress about it. Mistakes are part of learning, remember. Humans learn by making mistakes, if we didn't make them, we wouldn't learn.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 25, 2010)

No stress  I've just spent today reading threads by DoubleZ711 and spent a fair while on the posts by Joab that Aikido is ineffective against hard/fast attacks even though he had no personal experience. A lot of posters seemed to take offense to that (rightfully so IMO) and I just didn't want to offend any Jinenkan practitioners who may come across this thread.

That being said, thanks for all your advice lately, as I said in my email I know I'm asking a lot of questions but I'm not sure how much of what I find on the internet as an answer will be accurate.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 27, 2010)

Troy Wideman said:


> I looked at the Takagi Yoshin Ryu download. And as I said before some of the patterns preformed by Manaka don't look like Ishitani or Mizuta. I know he received menkyo kaiden but I am confused as to why his patterns are so different.
> The download shows some patterns in the okuden sections which are shinden fudo ryu, not takagi yoshin ryu.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> ...


 
Hi Troy,

I was wondering if you could clarify this statement? I've been going through my notes here for as many sources as I can find, and am unsure which kata you are refering to. The lists I have for Takagi Yoshin Ryu are as follows, with the following code (Jinenkan Download = JNK, Bujinkan List from Arnoud Cousergue = BJK, Missouri Budo Taijutsu list [mbdojo.com] = MBT, Takagi Ryu Chugokui Mokuroku, a translated Makimono of Takagi Ryu from 1844 by Stephen Greenfield = TRC, Hatsumi's Unarmed Fighting Techniques book = UFT):

Okuden Shirabe no Gata

1: Gai Do (JNK), Baido (BJK), Gai Do (MBT), Kuruma Gaeshi (TRC), Ume Haki (UFT)

2: Kuruma Gaeshi (JNK), Kuruma Gaeshi (BJK), Kuruma Gaeshi (MBT), Ten Gaeshi (TRC), Kuruma Gaeshi (UFT).

3: Ten Gaeshi (JNK), Ten Gaeshi (BJK), Ten Gaeshi (MBT), Baido (TRC), Ten Gaeshi (UFT)

4: Nagare Dori (JNK), Nagare Dori (BJK), Nagare Dori (MBT), Nagare Dori (TRC), Nagare Dori (UFT) - NOTE: For Hatsumi's book, it then states that the rest of the 12 kata are kuden, and appear under the title of Gokui. They are not listed in the book.

5: Yama Otoshi (JNK), Yama Otoshi (BJK), Yama Otoshi (MBT), Yama Otoshi (TRC)

6: Tomo Arashi (JNK), Kura Arashi/Tomo Arashi (BJK - second name taken from Ueno Takashi 20th Anniversary booklet), Tomo Arashi (MBT), Sode Guruma (TRC)

7: Sode Guruma (JNK), Sode Guruma (BJK), Sode Guruma (MBT), Tan Sai/Kimo Kudaki (TRC)

8: Ryo-te Gake (JNK), Ryo-te Gake (BJK), Ryo-te Gake (MBT), Rai Raku (TRC)

9: To Sai (JNK), Tan Sai (BJK), To Sai (MBT), Tai Kudaki (TRC)

10: Sue Otoshi (JNK), Sue Otoshi (BJK), Sue Otoshi (MBT), Sofu (TRC)

11: Tai Kudaki (JNK), Tai Kudaki (BJK), Tai Kudaki (MBT), Gyaku Dori (TRC)

12: Sofu (JNK), Sofu (BJK), Sofu (MBT), Fu Setsu (TRC - this is the last kata presented, and the second section for the Okuden does not appear in the Makimono)

13: Gyaku Dori (JNK), Gyaku Dori (BJK), Gyaku Dori (MBT)

14: Ranpu (JNK), Ranpu (BJK), Rampu (MBT)

15: Fu Setsu (JNK), Fu Setsu (BJK), Fu Setsu (MBT)

So for the Shirabe Gata, there is a slight change to the order from the Chugokui Mokuroku, and a few omissions, but it is essentially easily recognisable as the same Ryu-ha. For the rest, it is pretty much identical, with one or two minor variations.

Okuden Moguri no Gata

1: Gokuraku Dori (JNK), Gyakuraku Otoshi (BJK), Gokuraku Otoshi (MBT), Gokuraku Otoshi (UFT)

2: Jigoku Dori (JNK), Jigoku Otoshi (BJK), Jigoku Otoshi (MBT), Jigoku Otoshi (UFT)

3: Tama Kudaki (JNK), Tama Kudaki (BJK), Tama Kudaki (MBT), Tama Kudaki (UFT)

4: Hicho Dori (JNK), Hicho Dori (BJK), Hicho Dori (MBT), Hicho Dori (UFT)

5: Oni Buse (JNK), Oni Buse (BJK), Oni Buse (MBT), Oni Buse (UFT)

6: Inazuma Nage (JNK), Inazuma Nage (BJK), Inazuma Nage (MBT), Inazuma Nage (UFT)

7: Mizu Dori (JNK), Mizu Dori (BJK), Mizu Dori (MBT), Mizutori (UFT)

8: Rai Setsu (JNK), Kisetsu/Rai Setsu (BJK), Rai Setsu (MBT), Kuru Yuki (UFT)

9: Tai Otoshi (JNK), Tai Otoshi (BJK), Tai Otoshi (MBT), Tai Otoshi (UFT)

10: Moguri Dori (JNK), Moguri Dori (BJK), Moguri Dori (MBT), Moguri Dori (UFT)

11: Moguri Nage (JNK), Moguri Nage (BJK), Moguri Nage (MBT), Moguri Nage (UFT)

Again, there are a few variations, but it is fairly universal across the lists.

Now, some of the names are the same as ones found in the two forms of Shinden Fudo Ryu (Ryote Gake in the Dakentaijutsu, Shizen Shigoku no Gata; Fu Setsu in the Jutaijutsu, Chuden no Gata), as well as some that are very similar (Yama Otoshi in TYR, Yama Arashi in SFRJTJ, and others), and there are certainly very similarly executed kata, I was just wondering which ones in particular you felt (in Manaka Sensei's performance and list) were SFR rather than TYR?


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## Troy Wideman (Dec 27, 2010)

Hi Chris,

Sorry but just give me a bit....to busy this week to clarify what I was saying....4 year old and christmas/new years takes precedent. Other wise my wife would Takagi my you know what.

Send me a private post as well.

Merry Christmas by the way.

Kind Regards,

Troy


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## Chris Parker (Dec 28, 2010)

Ha, thanks Troy.... honestly I wasn't expecting you to get back so soon, no hurry on anything.

All the best to you and yours,


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (Dec 28, 2010)

Just received the book yesterday...its seems ok. I think I'll do like you did Chris I'll just keep it and use it as a comparison with other Densho interpretations that I've aquired over the years. But all in all its a pretty good book by what I've read so far.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 1, 2011)

I have this book as well and it is okay!


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