# Bring the most with the smallest...



## Cruentus (May 11, 2005)

What is the best concealment pistol (most compact design) that holds the most rounds? The rounds need to have enough power to stop a human attacker (I know that this depends mostly on accuracy, but use your descretion and common sense here. No .22's).

I know opinions will vary here....but let's here them!

Paul


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## Tgace (May 11, 2005)

Springfield 1911-A1 Ultra Compact 3.5 Inch Custom Loaded Pistol. Stainless Steel, 45 ACP with night sights.


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## Cruentus (May 11, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Springfield 1911-A1 Ultra Compact 3.5 Inch Custom Loaded Pistol. Stainless Steel, 45 ACP with night sights.



Cool... how many rounds?


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## Bammx2 (May 11, 2005)

Very nice!

 I know its a bit extreme...

But I used to carry a darringer.
Double Barreled.
The caliber was .410
for the most part...I only had to show it and people would stop dead in thier tracks!

I know thats not what you're looking for,I just wanted to throw it in...


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## Jerry (May 11, 2005)

That's so much a matter of personal taste it's not funny. How many mm is the loss of one bullet worth? How many bullets is the loss of 1lb (or 1") worth?

I tend to think of the 9mm as about the minumum "manstopper" round, though in most compacts you only seem to sacrifice 1 round to step from 9mm to .40. I've chosen my Glock as a good combination, and am looking strongly at the Springfields, but don't really know who has the highest cap.


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## Tgace (May 11, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Cool... how many rounds?


6


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## AnimEdge (May 11, 2005)

Theres the new springfield 1911 defender thats a .45 GAP wouldnt mind getting that


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## KenpoTex (May 12, 2005)

I'd have to give the "smallest with the mostest" prize to Para-Ordnance.  They have one called the Warthog  with a 3" barrel and a weight of 24 oz. that packs 10+1 in .45 acp.  Or, you could go with the Hawg9 that's the same size & weight but holds 12+1 in 9mm.  Kimber also makes guns of the same size/capacity.  At least in .45

If, God forbid, you should stray from the true path of the 1911 D), There's always Glock.  Also, one of the Taurus Millenniums holds 10+1 in .45 with a weight of 23 oz.


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## Tgace (May 12, 2005)

I have a G27 (.40mm) with a +1 mag extender to give me 11 (+1 in the chamber) rounds. Night sights. I like it. Straight shooter.


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## arnisandyz (May 12, 2005)

For largest capacity in smallest size I'd have to vote for the G19.  Not much bigger than my XD subcompact and 15+1 rounds of 9mm +P.  Probably the largest compact I'd feel comfortable carrying everyday. My XD hides a little better, but doesn't have the capacity.  I'm thinking of getting a G38 which is the same size as the 19 (slightly wider slide) but in 45 GAP. (only holds 8+1 rounds though.


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## dearnis.com (May 12, 2005)

OK; are we talking radical chops on service guns or true hide-out guns?  There is a difference.


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## Tgace (May 12, 2005)

Ya want big punch in a small package look at this....

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/News-11-11-2004B.html


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## Gray Phoenix (May 13, 2005)

Sig Sauer P239. .40S&W 7+1
I like mine simple and match grade out of the box.


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## KenpoTex (May 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Ya want big punch in a small package look at this....
> 
> http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/News-11-11-2004B.html


Ouch, I wouldn't mind one in .45 but anything bigger would just HURT.
Kinda like this one


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## arnisandyz (May 13, 2005)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> OK; are we talking radical chops on service guns or true hide-out guns?  There is a difference.




I was going by Tulisan's criteria

1. Holds the MOST rounds
Most guns people have listed have a big bang 45 or 40 but hold LESS rounds. 

2. Round must have enough power to stop a human attacker 
Again, many people said 45 or 40 but most "gun experts" would say that 9mm would be the minimal caliber for effectiveness.And with modern technology in bullet design, the 9 is fine.

3. Be able to conceal
Personal preference, what is concealable for one size person may not be for another.


If you go be that criteria, 15 rounds of 9mm fits Tulisan's formula better than 10 rounds of 45.  15 is more than 10 (#1) AND 9mm has enough power.  I'm not saying 9mm is BETTER than 40 ot 45 or vice versa, just going by the formula.


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## dearnis.com (May 13, 2005)

I used a colt officers model for civilian carry for years; hid fine, but NOT all the time.  My department precludes both .45 and single action, so I am now limited there; but I am decently familar with chopped .45s.  They are not all the time guns.  You won't carry one running; you may leave it at home when going to the store, and you will likely not have it at the beach.
The answers above are good, but Paul has set awful wide criteria...hard to get a straight answer.


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## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

Yes..Is it the largest caliber in the smallest package, or the smallest gun thats "capable" of doing the job?


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## hardheadjarhead (May 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yes..Is it the largest caliber in the smallest package, or the smallest gun thats "capable" of doing the job?



What is the job?

If you're going jogging, you might not elect to carry a steel framed .40/.45 ...or even a polymer one.  If you're anticipating a gun fight, how could you want anything less?  

We start getting into the Mouse Gun versus the "pocket rockets" here.  I have a Glock 27 and a KelTec P-32.  I can think of times where I might carry the latter rather than the former...versus going unarmed at all.  KelTec now has a .380 version that is roughly the same size of the P-32...an even better option.  

Still, some won't go with anything that small...ever...at all.  Even a .38 +P is anathema.  Internet arguments over caliber and stopping power approach a level of intensity equal that of a religious debate.

I have to admit, however, that when holding that Kel-Tec, I feel rather impotent.  I'd almost rather have a butcher knife.



Regards,


Steve


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## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

Personally .380 is the smallest I would go. Some folks like .25 ACP.... better these than nothing I guess, but Im not too impressed with them.

If I needed "tiny" Id go with...

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976109233.htmhttp://bastardsinc.blogs.com/bastardsinc/2004/06/bond_arms_derri.html


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## KenpoTex (May 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Some folks like .25 ACP.... better these than nothing I guess,


  Barely...

*How to Use a .25:*


Method 1:
a) Carry rounds in one pocket and the gun in the other

b) If faced with a violent encounter, throw loose rounds at the guy to distract him (they'll be flying almost as fast as they would be if you had shot them through the gun).

c) Hit the guy in the head, throat, temple, and other sensitive areas with the pistol.

d) Repeat "c" as neccessary until the guy goes down.


Method 2:
a) Carry the weapon (?) loaded.

b) if faced with a violent encounter close distance, stick the pistol up under the guys chin and pull trigger

c) Repeat "b" until he goes down or until the gun runs dry. If this happens, revert to step "c" from Method 1.


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## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

The case for bringing a knife to a gunfight there....


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## Cruentus (May 14, 2005)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> The answers above are good, but Paul has set awful wide criteria...hard to get a straight answer.



Wide criteria's lead to good discussions and a variety of preferences.

I personally like 9mm caliber wise, and feel that it is sufficient enough to do the job. But for size and capacity....there are just so many to chose from...

 :supcool:


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## Cruentus (May 14, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> I'd have to give the "smallest with the mostest" prize to Para-Ordnance.  They have one called the Warthog  with a 3" barrel and a weight of 24 oz. that packs 10+1 in .45 acp.  Or, you could go with the Hawg9 that's the same size & weight but holds 12+1 in 9mm.  Kimber also makes guns of the same size/capacity.  At least in .45
> 
> If, God forbid, you should stray from the true path of the 1911 D), There's always Glock.  Also, one of the Taurus Millenniums holds 10+1 in .45 with a weight of 23 oz.



I have seen the ads for the Warthog. Have you (or anyone) tested it out yet to be able to attest for its reliability?


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## KenpoTex (May 14, 2005)

I haven't had a chance to shoot one personally but, for what it's worth, I've heard good things about them.


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## TonyM. (May 15, 2005)

I like the Colt Double Eagle Officers ACP. Double action .45, 8+1, 3 1/2" barrel. King makes a great custom package for it and the 1911 officers acp.


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## Cthulhu (May 15, 2005)

Just for fun, and because I don't think I've seen it mentioned yet, the American Derringer re-make of the Semmerling LM4:

http://www.amderringer.com/lms.html

 Cthulhu


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## Cruentus (May 16, 2005)

I know we talked about S&W Sigma's here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22136&page=2&pp=15&highlight=sigma

The older Sigma's didn't get very good reviews.

However, there are newer models that are out that are supposed to be made much better:

http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=294660&item=1210881&sw_activeTab=2

Anyone have a chance to get their hands on the NEWER Sigma's?

I'm looking at the 4" barrel with 16 rounds for 9mm. For the $380 range, if this proves to be a good gun, how could one go wrong?
 :idunno: 

Paul


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## KenpoTex (May 16, 2005)

I recently read a review that spoke very highly of the new Sigma.  Personally I won't think about buying one until (if) they're proved to be a whole helluva lot better than the old ones (which wouldn't take much).  If that turns out to be the case then it sounds like a good deal.


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## hardheadjarhead (May 16, 2005)

Personally, I'm waiting for Smith and Wesson to come out with a small lightweight five shot Scandium revolver (oh, about twelve ounces) that is chambered for the .500 Linebaugh.  

I suspect when loaded its weight might double, and it might not sit very flat on the hip.  I imagine the recoil might be a tad severe, as well.  I'm concerned the fireball out of the muzzle might ignite anything within fifteen feet, as well.

But, hey...one has to take the good with the bad.



Regards,


Steve


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## KenpoTex (May 17, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Personally, I'm waiting for Smith and Wesson to come out with a small lightweight five shot Scandium revolver (oh, about twelve ounces) that is chambered for the .500 Linebaugh...*I imagine the recoil might be a tad severe, as well.  *


  This man, ladies and gentlemen, just made the greatest understatement of our time.


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## TonyM. (May 17, 2005)

'course you could always build a .300 weatherby mag zipgun.....Not!


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