# Help Me, Please!



## JasonASmith (Sep 1, 2006)

Hello All,
I have just started in Shotokan last week, and I have been shown the movements for the first few kata..
As I have been practicing the movements at home, I have been trying to focus on the concept of Embusen(sp?), or in other words, starting and ending the kata on the same point... It is important to my Sensei(and therefore, me) to get this right...Are there any tips, other than picking a line/s on the floor and following it, that you can give me?
This has been driving me nuts for the past few days;  I just can't seem to get back to the same point every time...:rpo:


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 1, 2006)

Mark the spot you start in and try to get to Carigie Hall.

Practice, practice, practice.

Jeff


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## Kacey (Sep 1, 2006)

Work on your stances.  The only way to make any form of pattern end on the same spot it began is to make sure that your stances are all a consistent length - that is, that every time a particular stance appears in a pattern it is the same length and width as every other time.


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## Carol (Sep 1, 2006)

Do some work specifically on your stances.   Make a line on the floor, strectch out some belts if you have to, then position one foot on each side of the belt, and do each stance up and back...moving from say (using an EPAK stance as an example) right neutral to left neutral to right neutral to left neutral.

Work with your instructors to determine the proper depth of your stances.  Ask them for drills that you can work on to help tone up your footwork.  Also ask your instructors for help with your kata.  It is not enough simply to point out a problem, your instructors should also offer some guidance as to what specifically you are stumbling with and how you can correct it.  You may need to arrange to chat with them a few minutes before or after class so you can get a bit of individual attention.

Stances are the basis of everything.  They take time to develop.  Work to improve them, but don't be too hard on yourself.


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## Drac (Sep 1, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Practice, practice, practice.


 
*Don't get discouraged*.and *Don't give up..*I was feeling the same way when I studied Shorin-Ryu..It will fall into place..Sorry I can't offer any more help...


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## twendkata71 (Sep 2, 2006)

*I agree with the others. It is about your stances. If your stances are off slightly then you won't end where you began. It takes a lot of practice.  And the more advanced kata that you learn the harder it will be to get it exactly right.  The thing about karate is that it is really a life time of work. You are always practicing, and you are always learning about yourself. Just keep at it and it will fall into place. *


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## JasonASmith (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks for all of the replies, I figured that it would be an experience thing...It DOES seem that the more I do the various kata, the closer I get to ending on the same point...


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## oldnewbie (Sep 5, 2006)

The first five Katas follow the letter "I" pattern. (In reality its kind of a "C").. but needed to say, what you will find is that your forward stance will tend to be longer than your back stance.

Try shifting from foward to back without moving your feet, to get it similar.

And as other have said, marking the floor is a great way to measure yourself.

Keep working on it.!!


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## crushing (Sep 5, 2006)

The other responses pretty much cover it.  But I want to add that I think this is the key phrase in your post:



JasonASmith said:


> I have just started in Shotokan last week, [...]


 
Relax, it has only been a week.  Relax, it has only been a week.  Don't get discouraged, and keep on practicing.  Did I say relax yet?  It has only been a week ya know!


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## matt.m (Sep 5, 2006)

Drop a yard stick on the floor or a piece of something and stand where you are equally over it, like it could cut you in half and try that.  I used that technique on some of my tae kwon do forms and it helped.


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## Grenadier (Sep 6, 2006)

As you practice any kata, whether it's your first Taikyoku all the way to the more advanced ones (Unsu, Suparinpei, Nijushiho, etc), you're going to continually make small adjustments as your body builds up enough of a sense memory.  Once your sense memory is built up, then everything else is going to fall in place, provided that your techniques are relatively clean and consistent.  

Also, keep in mind that while many kata do start and end up in the same place, this is not necessarily the case for all of them.


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## JasonASmith (Sep 30, 2006)

I have found that Heian Nidan is my Waterloo, so to speak...
All of the other Heian kata that I have been shown/am working on I have been becoming successful in achieving Embusen(or somewhere close), but Nidan is kicking my *** for some reason...I am going to REALLY analyze the hell out of what I am doing(that's what I did with Sandan, with success!) Hopefully I will come up with an answer on my own, rather than taking my problem into class and having Sensei or one of the Yudansha do it for me....


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## oldnewbie (Oct 2, 2006)

What seems to be the hang up??


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## JasonASmith (Oct 2, 2006)

It's the Kokutsu dachis on line 3, and the Yoko-geri/Back fist combo on line 1...


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## exile (Oct 2, 2006)

oldnewbie said:


> What seems to be the hang up??



Yes, that was my thought...

Have you tried doing the kata in `slow motion'? Not rushing it all, but sort of doing it as a series of separate moves, and maybe getting someone to watch you as you do it? A lot of small left/right side differences, or small difference in the 2nd half as vs. the first, will add up to a noticeable different in your starting and finishing points. If you move slowly through the kata a few times with someone watching, they may be able to spot where these differences are coming in...


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## JasonASmith (Oct 2, 2006)

I've noticed that some of the back stances are longer and deeper than the others...It's my attempt to get closer to where my Sensei is when he performs the kata...I also have noticed that I have trouble with the pivoting from front stances to back stances...Guess that I just have to get it in my head to do the same thing all of the time...


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## exile (Oct 2, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> I've noticed that some of the back stances are longer and deeper than the others...It's my attempt to get closer to where my Sensei is when he performs the kata...I also have noticed that I have trouble with the pivoting from front stances to back stances...Guess that I just have to get it in my head to do the same thing all of the time...



Another thing to consider is getting someone to do a camcording of you while you move through the kata. A lot of stuff might come out on video that you don't realize you're doing. But it sounds like you already have some clues to what you should work on to clear up the problem---good luck with it!


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## JasonASmith (Oct 2, 2006)

good luck with it![/quote]

Thank You...
I slowed everything WAY down today during practice, and I started to draw closer to achieving Embusen everytime that I performed the kata, although it's difficult for me to walk now!  AHHH!!!! Must make stances deeper!, Must make stances deeper!, Must maintain the same plane throughout the movements! :erg:


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## exile (Oct 2, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> good luck with it!


 
Thank You...
I slowed everything WAY down today during practice, and I started to draw closer to achieving Embusen everytime that I performed the kata, although it's difficult for me to walk now!  AHHH!!!! Must make stances deeper!, Must make stances deeper!, Must maintain the same plane throughout the movements! :erg: [/QUOTE]

This is part of the, um _conditioning_ aspect of the katas that you hear people talking about sometimes. Pretty brutal, those low stances, eh? ;-)

But probably, once it clicks in the lower stances and at the slower performance rate, you'll be able to get back to a more normal stance... I mean, I like low stances---they look so solid and powerful---but the human frame can only endure so much.


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## twendkata71 (Oct 3, 2006)

*Funakoshi Osensei stated that Deep stances are for novice and shallow stances are for advanced. Not the exact wording. I think that was in the Karatedo Kyohan. Or perhaps I read it in his book.*
*Karate do my way of life.*


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## Shotochem (Oct 3, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> good luck with it!


 
Thank You...
I slowed everything WAY down today during practice, and I started to draw closer to achieving Embusen everytime that I performed the kata, although it's difficult for me to walk now! AHHH!!!! Must make stances deeper!, Must make stances deeper!, Must maintain the same plane throughout the movements! :erg: [/quote]

The good news is that it does get easier over time.  You are still new.
Keep in mind that when you are in a back stance you should be able to snap a kick off your front leg with ease and without shifting your balance.  If you can't lift that front leg, you are too long and need to shorten up.
Remember shortening up does not mean coming up in the stance keep your but down and most of your weight on that back leg. :whip1: 

Yes, I know it does hurt......


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## oldnewbie (Oct 3, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> It's the Kokutsu dachis on line 3, and the Yoko-geri/Back fist combo on line 1...



Oh yes, the combo on line one...all I can say is ...balance..

Good luck, and wait til you get to Heien Godan.. one of my favorites!!


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## JasonASmith (Oct 3, 2006)

Good luck, and wait til you get to Heien Godan.. one of my favorites!![/quote]

I'm already there, and I agree...With the exception of the jump...I hate to leave the ground!


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## JasonASmith (Oct 3, 2006)

Well, I had a BIG boost of confidence in my practice tonight at class...
One of our Renshi(we have two, I believe) listened to my woes with Heian Nidan and had me perform the kata while he observed...
According to him, I landed almost exactly at Embusen...so close, in fact, that he wasn't bothered by it! Practice(and beating myself to death) makes perfect, baby, yeah!  Actually, he was more worried about the individual techniques themselves than Embusen, and he didn't have very many quibbles with my performance, so praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!:boing2:


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## exile (Oct 3, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Well, I had a BIG boost of confidence in my practice tonight at class...
> One of our Renshi(we have two, I believe) listened to my woes with Heian Nidan and had me perform the kata while he observed...
> According to him, I landed almost exactly at Embusen...so close, in fact, that he wasn't bothered by it! Practice(and beating myself to death) makes perfect, baby, yeah!  Actually, he was more worried about the individual techniques themselves than Embusen, and he didn't have very many quibbles with my performance, so praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!:boing2:



Hey JAS---well done! No matter what it is, if you keep going after it really hard, you're going to get it.

As the techs used to say, `There are no problems---only solutions'.  Keep up the good work


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## oldnewbie (Oct 4, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Good luck, and wait til you get to Heien Godan.. one of my favorites!!


 
I'm already there, and I agree...With the exception of the jump...I hate to leave the ground![/quote]

Oh no... the jump is the best!!!!

Congrats!

Sounds like you are blasting through the katas!


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## JasonASmith (Oct 4, 2006)

Oh no... the jump is the best!!!!

Congrats!

Sounds like you are blasting through the katas![/quote]

I like to put it this way:  I am replicating the movements of the katas, which is important, but the application of the movements is what's really important...That will take time, and I will be happy to spend as much time as possible on the applications.


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> the application of the movements is what's really important...That will take time, and I will be happy to spend as much time as possible on the applications.



JAS---just as a matter of interest, when you talk about the applications here, is this something your instructor spends a lot of time going into? Is he showing how to analyze the kata to determine the bunkai, or is he just showing you the concealed uses without refering to any general method of decoding them into their combat uses? This is something I'm really interested in---it varies so much from dojo to dojo and instructor to instructor...


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## JasonASmith (Oct 4, 2006)

exile said:


> JAS---just as a matter of interest, when you talk about the applications here, is this something your instructor spends a lot of time going into? Is he showing how to analyze the kata to determine the bunkai, or is he just showing you the concealed uses without refering to any general method of decoding them into their combat uses? This is something I'm really interested in---it varies so much from dojo to dojo and instructor to instructor...


 
Often times, Sensei will go through part of the kata, and then stop and give us some bunkai for what he has just shown us...He was also "open the floor" for some bunkai from either Sempai or the Renshi to get a different take on the subject...Sensei's always attempting to get us to visualize what's going on, as well...
Sensei will also take some time(usually once every other week) during class and have US pick a portion out of a kata to analyze for bunkai...Usually we pair into groups and work something out in a short amount of time, then we have to present what we have worked out in our groups in front of the class...


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## oldnewbie (Oct 4, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Oh no... the jump is the best!!!!
> 
> Congrats!
> 
> Sounds like you are blasting through the katas!


 
I like to put it this way:  I am replicating the movements of the katas, which is important, but the application of the movements is what's really important...That will take time, and I will be happy to spend as much time as possible on the applications.[/quote]

No offense meant.. It's just that in my dojo, it took two years to get to Heien Godan, and in one of your posts, you stated that you started in Shotokan in late August, early September of this year.

Therefore, you are blasting through the katas, time wise.......


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## exile (Oct 4, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Often times, Sensei will go through part of the kata, and then stop and give us some bunkai for what he has just shown us...He was also "open the floor" for some bunkai from either Sempai or the Renshi to get a different take on the subject...Sensei's always attempting to get us to visualize what's going on, as well...
> Sensei will also take some time(usually once every other week) during class and have US pick a portion out of a kata to analyze for bunkai...Usually we pair into groups and work something out in a short amount of time, then we have to present what we have worked out in our groups in front of the class...



That's a _great_ approach to teaching---sounds to me like you're in a very good school. I think it's very wise on his part to try to get you all thinking on your own about how a given kata sequence could translate into a series of fighting moves.

Based on your original query starting off this thread (about his emphasis on  absolute precision in execution of the kata to get enbusen exactly right) and your comments about his interest in a `hands-on' approach to bunkai analysis, I'd say your instructor is someone who sees the forms as the _true_ foundation of the art. That's about as traditional as you can get, and in the end will wind up giving you a very rounded, sophisticated and versatile grasp of karate. You picked a great dojo!


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## JasonASmith (Oct 4, 2006)

You picked a great dojo![/quote]

Thank You, and everyday I thank God that I have stumbled upon this school and our Sensei...
All are welcome! Come watch! Come workout!


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## Robert Lee (Oct 4, 2006)

Coming in late on this subject I would say practice your stances seperate each day Then you learn the stance and its correction factor  As when you train Kata you will have that better understanding of the stance distance foot position and such. Use say some tape make a X on the floor the beeter you train your different stances the beeter you will move in your kata. And Its better to learn the kata at first in sections so you set them to memory better as you learn. Bunki shows you both the offence and defnce motion of that kata then also you have to rember to break each move down as a possible selfdefence motion. It takse time for Kata to come together and to be smooth Strech practices all your stances and train the kata slow at first then add some speed then a show of power. I was never taught bunki until I had trained a certion kata long enough to have smoothed itr out then bunki was introduced. Now kisokumite was given at same time bunki was training was started. But that was then this is now. Good luck with your training And remember do not try to learn fast try to learn good.


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## JasonASmith (Oct 4, 2006)

And remember do not try to learn fast try to learn good.[/quote]

Great advice, and I intend to use and follow through with it...


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