# Opinions on Defense Lab?



## Justin Chang (Sep 30, 2016)

Anyone have any opinions on Defense Lab or DNA Fight Science?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2016)

I don't know much about them so this is based on what I see from their promotional videos.  I see flickers of kung fu techniques and I'm old school when it comes to kung fu, which means the person first learns how to do the technique properly and with power first then they learn how to apply it.  When I see people do kung fu techniques but don't include the proper training of it then my first thoughts is that stuff is going to be weak.
The fairest way to give comment about them is to analyze what I see.




0:18 Technique (kung fu based) to defend against someone pushing or grabbing with both hands.  The arm isn't circled high enough when done properly that technique will lock your opponents hand and will torque their wrist.  You can actually probably dislocated, but not the way they are doing it.

0:18 Stances are wrong for the technique.
0:27 Lady throws up a double arm face guard mask thing.  If she raises both of her hands like that with me then I'm going to do my best to rupture her organs because you have now she has left the bottom half of her body open.  If I don't think I can strike the stomach, liver, or kidneys in time then I'll definitely kick the legs.
0:29  Technique (kung fu based) is done to the inside of the body. If they do that same technique to the outside of the body then they can break the elbow and end the fight quickly, If they don't break the elbow then they can do enough damage to control or make that arm less useful.
0:49 I don't know what he's doing there. It looks like a bunch of wasted movement.
1:01. Same double arm face guard mask thing.  Fake a hook like it's going to the head and then crush the ribs kidneys or liver.  If you don't want to punch it provide more than enough space for a knee or kick.  Since their hands are wrapped around their head, simply pin their arms against the head.  Their system seems to be based around this guard. 
1:24: Valid head block but wasted technique.  take note of where the elbow is.  In Jow Ga instead of trying to use the elbow to block, we would just land it on the face as we move forward.
1:42 Valid kung fu groin strike, but not the best technique for that type of attack.
1:45  Valid kung fu groin strike, but once again not sure I would try to use it in that position. When in a head lock you have to address the headlock because that's where the danger is.  If the groin strike misses then you will still be in a headlock and the time that you could have spent getting out of it or preventing it from being fully locked was wasted.
2:06 Total crap strike technique.  Better technique in that range would be elbow strikes.
2:34 Total crap blocking a kick like that.  You have better odds of trying to cross a busy road with your eyes closed. If he misses the foot he's going to get kicked really hard in the face or throat.
2:25 Double upper cut  Total Crap, The mechanics for that movement aren't efficient and the effort that it takes to stand up from a squatting position is significant. If you don't think so then give it a try.






Once again many opportunities for kicks, knees, and body shots.  Sparring and demos are always cool so let's look at some students use the techniques in free sparring





Now how well will this system work?  Probably good for everyday people who like to head hunt and don't know how to kick.  Most people don't kick nor do they fight blow the face. Which is why I tell people to learn and utilize good kicks.

Would I take the class? Only if it was free and only if I could test apply my Jow Ga against their defense.


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## Tez3 (Sep 30, 2016)

This is the only 'Defence Lab' I've had dealings with. Defence Science and Technology Laboratory - GOV.UK


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> This is the only 'Defence Lab' I've had dealings with. Defence Science and Technology Laboratory - GOV.UK


I should have known. lol.  Walked right into that one.

I agree that defense lab works


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## marques (Sep 30, 2016)

I was curious about this since the beginning. Just because it looks different (when actually it is the old kung fu - thanks, @JowGaWolf ).

And it seems an interesting method against untrained people. They don't like that short distance and they punch the head. (Should we train to defeat only untrained people?) 

Otherwise, it will be difficult. A kickboxer will keep the distance and..., a Thai boxer will clinch and... and a wrestler will not wait for elbows or other tricks. Anyway, as JowDaWolf, I would like to try my 'sort of style' against this. To be sure about what I am saying.

Another thing I do not appreciate is they advertise the style to the public, as much as the business to new instructors. And greed is not good to any art... Especially when it is very new and needs, above all, excellent (few?) instructors.

We can include in the discussion the Keysi (by Justo Dieguez) since they have the same origin...


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## Buka (Sep 30, 2016)

Looks like a bunch of people working out in a martial art. Looks kind of fun and interesting, wouldn't mind spending some time with them. If they were down the street I'd go on my day off. Bet I'd have fun, too.

As for picking apart every minute detail per second of film - probably could be done with any and all film of any kind of martial Art, including all of ours.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 30, 2016)

i would say its a mixed bag.  somewhat hard to tell from the speed of the clips linked together.  i saw some good mechanics and some bad mechanics.  a lot of the punches where thrown when the guy was to far from his target. i see some reality based stuff mixed with some typical fantasy stuff that only works in movies.  without taking a class or talking to the instructors i get the feeling that its lacking in some reality, it looks like its supposed to be more a reality based training system but they start from same assumptions and platform that fail to match the needs of actual combat.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 30, 2016)

Buka said:


> Looks like a bunch of people working out in a martial art. Looks kind of fun and interesting, wouldn't mind spending some time with them. If they were down the street I'd go on my day off. Bet I'd have fun, too.
> 
> As for picking apart every minute detail per second of film - probably could be done with any and all film of any kind of martial Art, including all of ours.


I'm more than happy to let people pick through a video of my class, I guarantee that you won't find as many flaws in the techniques, nor the instruction.  I'm pretty sure a lot of people here will learn something new or at the very least will be exposed to something that can help them in their own system.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm more than happy to let people pick through a video of my class, I guarantee that you won't find as many flaws in the techniques, nor the instruction.  I'm pretty sure a lot of people here will learn something new or at the very least will be exposed to something that can help them in their own system.


um yeah,,i wouldnt voice that guarantee  to loud


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 1, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> um yeah,,i wouldnt voice that guarantee  to loud


Why not?


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know much about them so this is based on what I see from their promotional videos.  I see flickers of kung fu techniques and I'm old school when it comes to kung fu, which means the person first learns how to do the technique properly and with power first then they learn how to apply it.  When I see people do kung fu techniques but don't include the proper training of it then my first thoughts is that stuff is going to be weak.
> The fairest way to give comment about them is to analyze what I see.



It seems to be based on KFM (Keysi Fighting Method) , hence the 'Fight like Batman and Jack Reacher' bit in the title.


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## frank raud (Oct 1, 2016)

I use a similar head/shield position. However as they consistently put their palm on the bicep of the arm that they bend to use the elbow for defense, they can only counter with the bent elbow arm(hope that description makes sense) until they dissolve the head shield. Essentially they trap their own hand in what appears to be a go to/signature move.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> It seems to be based on KFM (Keysi Fighting Method) , hence the 'Fight like Batman and Jack Reacher' bit in the title.


Have you seen any videos of them defending against an upper cut, body shot, kick, or someone controlling the elbow?


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 1, 2016)

waking  up this morning i thought about this system again and to quote Donald Trump " _this is big ...its huge"_
this could be a game changer!!
as a disclaimer i do not have all the facts and i am not familiar with either system.  this is my thoughts on what i see,  Keysi was created by Justo Dieguez.  the style has its own look and feel. it became popular in the movies. Andy Norman possible student and system co-founder broke away and created Defence Lab.  Defence Lab is more about business.  i think Norman saw the possibilities in creating a full brand. everything i saw on youtube and on the web sight is full blow marketing.  so now Defence Lab is a brand based on recognizable stylistic movements.  
this is the first time i have seen a fighting system with branding and marketing on this scale.  this is the way business will be done in the future.
the second part of my thought is this....
if Defence Lab brand revolves around its movement style then by default, in a way it has a copyright or a trademarked way of moving.  if the feel of the movement can be branded and hold a copyright then  Dieguez can sue Defence Lab since he is the original creator and can prove it.
if The Chiffons ( wrote "Hes so fine")  can sue George Harrison ( wrote "My sweet Lord") because the two songs sound and feel alike, and WIN...( it was acknowledged  "In 1976, Harrison was found to have subconsciously plagiarised the earlier tune")  then Keysi can sue and win a copyright infringment lawsuit based on the feel and style of the movements. 
 a good lawyer could argue that both sound and movement are based on the "feel" and why can one be considered property and not the other?  also that the feel gives the movements a recognizable trait that one can see and clearly recognize them as unique from other martial arts.
if a law suit was filed and possibly won then that would rock the entire martial art world on its axis.  it seem like we are headed in that direction sooner or later since the stakes of business within the martial art community has reached the level of professionalism that has not existed before.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Have you seen any videos of them defending against an upper cut, body shot, kick, or someone controlling the elbow?


I have only seen the videos in this thread.


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## Hanzou (Oct 1, 2016)

Looks quite cool actually. I like how they end up in a guillotine choke. That choke is probably the most efficient standing choke around, and will end a confrontation very quickly. Also looks pretty solid for close-quarter fighting, and dealing with haymakers and multiple opponents. If my kid wanted to learn self defense, I'd probably put them into something like this over a traditional striking style like Karate or Kung Fu.

Anyway, definitely interested in seeing more.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 26, 2017)

Justin Chang said:


> Anyone have any opinions on Defense Lab or DNA Fight Science?


Self Defense is a big tent. From throwing sand in the eyes to launching missiles could all be considered Self Defense.
Watching these guys reminds me of Crazy Monkey Boxing. Their style is very much about violently stopping the opponent quickly. Looks fine if you like that style.


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## drop bear (Jan 26, 2017)

The striking seems complicated. I will probably only ever use a tenth of that in a fight.

I think there would be a lot of time spent not doing the absolute necessities it takes to finish a fight.

Like for example the combination elbows which are not set up. This is fine in drills. But when a head is moving around in a fight it means a proportion of those strikes will miss. Now if the same proportion of the other guys strikes don't miss then there are issues.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> launching missiles could all be considered Self Defense.



That's more in the defence of the nation, self defence is considered here at least as to be the defence of the person/s. 'Liking' styles is fairly irrelevant, it's what works for you, what you can do instinctively in the precious few seconds you have to react. Self defence is rarely pretty, never how you practice it but hopefully effective.


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## veritasAequitas (May 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The striking seems complicated. I will probably only ever use a tenth of that in a fight.
> 
> I think there would be a lot of time spent not doing the absolute necessities it takes to finish a fight.
> 
> Like for example the combination elbows which are not set up. This is fine in drills. But when a head is moving around in a fight it means a proportion of those strikes will miss. Now if the same proportion of the other guys strikes don't miss then there are issues.



You hit the nail on the head, when its tested in actual sparring you use hardly any of it.


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## veritasAequitas (May 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Have you seen any videos of them defending against an upper cut, body shot, kick, or someone controlling the elbow?



Good luck with that...


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 18, 2018)

Justin Chang said:


> Anyone have any opinions on Defense Lab or DNA Fight Science?



Defense lab is bullcrap. All hype and no substance. They might have like one or two good techniques, but that's about it. If i can recall, they based their stuff off of action movies. Completely unrealistic. They claim that their approach is based on science when really, it's just based on Hollywood fantasy. They rehearse almost everything in unrealistic settings.


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## frank raud (Jul 20, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


> Defense lab is bullcrap. All hype and no substance. They might have like one or two good techniques, but that's about it. If i can recall, they based their stuff off of action movies. Completely unrealistic. They claim that their approach is based on science when really, it's just based on Hollywood fantasy. They rehearse almost everything in unrealistic settings.


Action movies are based on their stuff. It doesn't necessarily make it better, but defense lab or keysi method did the choreography for Batman and Jack Reacher.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 21, 2018)

Keysi did look pretty good in batman, of the fight scene i saw.  Not going to lie.    (it was keysi for one of the batman films)


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## drop bear (Jul 21, 2018)

Rat said:


> Keysi did look pretty good in batman, of the fight scene i saw.  Not going to lie.    (it was keysi for one of the batman films)



Keysi looks terrible in movies. It just looks so forced.






as oposed to jackie chan for example.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Keysi looks terrible in movies. It just looks so forced.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Im not listening, lalalalala. 



Nah, i just found it interesting in batman seeing him do a loose head guard.    it looks pretty rigid when done in that scene though.


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