# Humilities role, if any, in training for self defense?



## Brian King (Jun 15, 2015)

In the fundamental pillars of self-defense thread, a brief interesting discussion of humility evolved but like many a long and intense conversations, the topic wandered and then disappeared. It seemed like an interesting topic perhaps worth further discussion and exploration. What is your opinion of the two following questions. 

Is there a role for humility in training for self-defense? 
If so what is it? 

@Jenna, @drop bear, @elder999

Some of the quotes from the pillars thread, I think I missed some of them. Sorry.



Jenna said:


> Is the mind of humility relevant at all? I mean acceptance of limitation that the limitation might be overcome? what do you think? Jx





elder999 said:


> Humility might be just what some need to get through the aftermath.....it really has n_ext to no place at all _in the encounter itself.





Jenna said:


> Yes Sir agreed and understood.
> 
> I see people -MA people- unwilling to admit the short comings of their art or of their selves in the practice of that art for whatever reason.. I worry for those people.  So right now before any encounter happens from the safety of our places and as a pillar of defence would you say humility in this way is at all useful?? I mean so our limitations might be conceded in order to be surmounted?
> 
> Jx





drop bear said:


> Yes.
> 
> I know a few street fighters. And if you engage in enough violence eventually you are going to get bashed.
> 
> ...


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## elder999 (Jun 15, 2015)

Brian King said:


> In the fundamental pillars of self-defense thread, a brief interesting discussion of humility evolved but like many a long and intense conversations, the topic wandered and then disappeared. It seemed like an interesting topic perhaps worth further discussion and exploration. What is your opinion of the two following questions.
> 
> Is there a role for humility in training for self-defense?
> If so what is it?
> ...



Later, I did say that there was a role for humility in the situation: that verbal de-escalation, and leaving the assailant a face-saving way out required some humility, and also that as I near 55 (just weeks away!) I have to recognize that I'm _physically_ not quite the (as someone else put it back in the day) "absolute *monster*"  that I once was, and adjust accordingly. Those are, at least, two places where humility has a place in training for self defense-in fact, I was in my early 30's (35...ish?) and surprised a woman I was dating by saying, _Yeah, I'd* coward out o*f a fight, if it meant everyone involved got to wake up at home in the morning, relatively unscathed._

It's been my experience that wounded pride heals much, much faster than lacerations, or even skinned knuckles.....


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## Brian King (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks Elder. I tried to find that post before starting this thread, but missed it and could not locate it. Thanks for adding it to this thread.


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## marques (Jun 16, 2015)

_how to delete it?_


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## marques (Jun 16, 2015)

_how to delete it?_


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## elder999 (Jun 16, 2015)

marques said:


> _how to delete it?_


True humility is indelible son........

EDIT: "inedible" snuck by the spell check.....kinda funny....


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2015)

elder999 said:


> True humility is inedlible, son........



Tastes like chicken?

If you consider avoid conflict "humility", then that is the role it has in training.
Other than that, I don't really think it does.
I'll do my damnedest to avoid trouble. But if there IS trouble, the only thing that really matters to me is making sure that the good guys don't get hurt.


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## elder999 (Jun 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Tastes like chicken?
> .


 More like crow, I'd bet!


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## Tez3 (Jun 16, 2015)

I would say 'humility' had no place in a confrontation but using common sense and having no ego would be better. Not letting your ego get the better of you and looking for ways out, all ways out including talking and running for it are better than any sense that you should be humble or feel you are lower than anyone else. Calm thinking which can be difficult is a good thing to cultivate if you can, along with sensible training which you can actually do.
Whether training for self defence, competition or fitness there's no room for egos nor humility. The ability to take a cold hard look at yourself and your training is very useful, if you are good at something then you should capitalise on that, if you are poor at something either change it or work until you are good at it.
Of course it depends on what you think 'humility' is.


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## pgsmith (Jun 16, 2015)

I agree Tez, it depends on what you think humility is. I've been taught that humility means not letting your ego get the better of you and not trying to put yourself up as better than everyone else. You've obviously been taught that it means something else.
  I feel it is a vital part of de-escalating any encounter. I've been in quite a number of encounters that did not escalate into violence because I let the other fellow believe they were better than I was. As Elder said in his earlier post, wounded pride heals much quicker than wounded flesh, and I can always smirk at them to myself later.


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## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2015)

[


pgsmith said:


> I agree Tez, it depends on what you think humility is. I've been taught that humility means not letting your ego get the better of you and not trying to put yourself up as better than everyone else. You've obviously been taught that it means something else.
> I feel it is a vital part of de-escalating any encounter. I've been in quite a number of encounters that did not escalate into violence because I let the other fellow believe they were better than I was. As Elder said in his earlier post, wounded pride heals much quicker than wounded flesh, and I can always smirk at them to myself later.




I haven't been 'taught' it means anything different but it does have a couple of meanings and many words change as they cross the Atlantic. Humility is most often used in religious discussions rather than martial arts, it rarely comes up outside religion.
I wouldn't say that 'humility' had anything to do with you letting the other fellow think they are better than you, that's the calm thinking and common sense part of what I was saying, (you could even call it craftiness), doing what you have to. I don't see that pride or ego should come into it if you are confident of your abilities. There would be no reason for wounded pride.


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## elder999 (Jun 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> [
> I wouldn't say that 'humility' had anything to do with you letting the other fellow think they are better than you, that's the calm thinking and common sense part of what I was saying, (you could even call it craftiness), doing what you have to. I don't see that pride or ego should come into it if you are confident of your abilities. There would be no reason for wounded pride.


 
*humility*
_noun_ hu·mil·i·ty \hyü-ˈmi-lə-tē, yü-\
: the quality or state of* not thinking you are better than other people* : the quality or state of being humble
a modest or low view of one's own importance; humbleness


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## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2015)

One shouldn't have a_ low estimate_ of one's abilities, one should have a realistic view, unfortunately many think that having a realistic view is also being big headed. neither humility nor bigheadness have a place in self defence, taking a cold hard look at your skills and knowing what you can do is vital. Common sense tells you not to think you are better than anyone else.


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## elder999 (Jun 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> One shouldn't have a_ low estimate_ of one's abilities, one should have a realistic view, unfortunately many think that having a realistic view is also being big headed. neither humility nor bigheadness have a place in self defence, taking a cold hard look at your skills and knowing what you can do is vital. Common sense tells you not to think you are better than anyone else.


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## Danny T (Jun 17, 2015)

It is not about what one things humility is. Humility the state of being humble has a specific definition.

Being humble doesn't mean having a low estimate of ability. It is being in the state of or displaying humility.
Just because one is humble or displays humility don't underestimate their abilities. Even in a self-defense situation one can and maybe should show a lower importance of yourself (always depends upon the situation) until the time is right to make the proper move.

This should be a common sense thing Tez but unfortunately many people it seems, leave their common sense at home.


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## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2015)

You have to bear in mind though that the very act of looking humble can trigger attacks. Displaying 'humility' can make you look like an easy target so you have to find the middle ground where you don't look like a threat but also don't look like a pushover. Learning to cultivate a quiet confidence along with a fair amount of empathy has always worked for me when I've had to deal with fights and conflicts. I do believe though that men and women handle situations differently. An attitude of humbleness may not work for a woman and will most likely be taken for weakness or fear, which is often exactly what the attacker wants before he harms them.
I think everyone has to work out for themselves the best way of dealing with events. It was like my job, what works for me more than likely wouldn't have worked for a male officer and vice versa.


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## Danny T (Jun 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> You have to bear in mind though that the very act of looking humble can trigger attacks. Displaying 'humility' can make you look like an easy target so you have to find the middle ground where you don't look like a threat but also don't look like a pushover. Learning to cultivate a quiet confidence along with a fair amount of empathy has always worked for me when I've had to deal with fights and conflicts. I do believe though that men and women handle situations differently. An attitude of humbleness may not work for a woman and will most likely be taken for weakness or fear, which is often exactly what the attacker wants before he harms them.
> I think everyone has to work out for themselves the best way of dealing with events. It was like my job, what works for me more than likely wouldn't have worked for a male officer and vice versa.


I agree, it is always situational.


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## Argus (Jun 22, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I would say 'humility' had no place in a confrontation but using common sense and having no ego would be better. Not letting your ego get the better of you and looking for ways out, all ways out including talking and running for it are better than any sense that you should be humble or feel you are lower than anyone else. Calm thinking which can be difficult is a good thing to cultivate if you can, along with sensible training which you can actually do.
> Whether training for self defence, competition or fitness there's no room for egos nor humility. The ability to take a cold hard look at yourself and your training is very useful, if you are good at something then you should capitalise on that, if you are poor at something either change it or work until you are good at it.
> Of course it depends on what you think 'humility' is.



I disagree. Humility -- true humility, is important and very useful in every aspect of life. It's a highly undervalued and misunderstood quality, and one I constantly aspire to develop.

Humility isn't about thinking little of yourself. It's simply about having an empty cup and an open mind, and not letting anything threaten your ego - not by outwardly judging and dismissing it, but by taking it with a grain of salt, considering it earnestly, and not feeling that you have to protect your self image or prove yourself in anyway. You seek to accept and appreciate everything for what it is, and not worry about what relation it has to yourself.

The few individuals I've met who exhibit a truly humble attitude never come off as in-confident. Rather, they just come off as very squared-away, open-minded, personable, and even confident -- but as a result of "being at peace with / accepting things" kind of way, rather than a cocky kind of way.

That's a deeply important quality for training, as well as for being able to handle stressful situations productively or tactfully, I think. If you're worried about your own image, status, self-worth, or presume to know more than you do, or protect any of that by passing outward judgment as opposed to first examining yourself, you will not grow or meet with as productive results as if you had done otherwise.

All that said, I'm not there yet, personally -- I'm still more concerned with myself than I'd like to be. But, it's something I strive to change. And if nothing else, I try to remind myself never to assume that I "know better," as I sometimes have the habit of thinking.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2015)

Argus said:


> Humility isn't about thinking little of yourself. It's simply about having an empty cup and an open mind, and not letting anything threaten your ego - not by outwardly judging and dismissing it, but by taking it with a grain of salt, considering it earnestly, and not feeling that you have to protect your self image or prove yourself in anyway. You seek to accept and appreciate everything for what it is, and not worry about what relation it has to yourself.



But one should be like that anyway. We should be like that as a matter of course, it's a part of being a well rounded human being.


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## Argus (Jun 22, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> But one should be like that anyway. We should be like that as a matter of course, it's a part of being a well rounded human being.



I agree! But, isn't that being humble?

I guess I'm more concerned with what's underneath than what you necessarily show outwardly. Your point about not looking like an easy target, for example, is quite valid. But I don't think an outwardly confident appearance has any bearing on whether someone is humble or not. It's just a bit of a misnomer(?) that people tend to equate confidence with ego, ego with ability, and humility with lack either confidence or ability.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2015)

Argus said:


> that people tend to equate confidence with ego, ego with ability, and humility with lack either confidence or ability.



Quite honestly I don't nor do people I know think like that.
When people say 'humble' I tend to think of Uriah Heep being ever so 'umble and I shudder. I think it's more a certain religion's way of thinking about things, that one should always be humble, quiet and obedient. Whereas I think if you are brought up properly you will have a sense of self worth and self esteem which is very necessary but not allow yourself an inflated ego. You should have a realistic sense of self as well as common sense both of which  which will tell you if you are verging on being boastful or idiotic ( therefore not getting yourself into aggressive situations you don't need to) etc.
I believe some societies in the world are such that children are brought up to be ego driven and demanding. 'Go getting' is the mantra along with 'greed is good' so being humble in a society like that will have a different meaning to how others see it. It also means a different thing to women than to men!
How to be Humble without being a Wimp - Contemporary Voices


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## toddfletcher (Jun 24, 2015)

Great discussion. Something that had come to mind several times this year. I have a friend teaching at my school. He teaches a different flavor of martial arts, and that organization has several differences. Among others, they have added 'humility' to the tenets of Taekwondo. And have contemplated whether or not I should also add it to my teaching. 

My take.... it don't think it should be an aspect of fight technique training. In teaching a kick, I don't want my student burdened with the abstract notion of if they are being a humble or prideful fighter. I want them to training the technique correctly. It should - however - be an aspect cultivated in life training and displayed when interacting with fellow students and instructors. In my experience, it isn't pride or humility that matters in winning a confrontation. Instead I suggest 'empty-mind'. A lack of self consideration. Instead be in the moment, react to and act on an opponent's movements and technique with a full realization of your own skill level. It seems to me that if you focus on pride or humility you are trying to project a modified version of self. My perception of my skill will not succeed or fail to defeat an opponent. It is my actual action. Remove that abstraction, and use only what is real. 

In training outside of the fight, one should always be teachable and self-critical. This is a path to real improvement. But in the moment of conflict, forget such concepts, and use the reality of your skill and the reality of your opponent's skill. A prideful fighter will still defeat a humble one, if his skill is better. The abstract concept of pride or humility addresses what leads to the fight. IMO.


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## wingchunguy (Jun 24, 2015)

Brian King said:


> In the fundamental pillars of self-defense thread, a brief interesting discussion of humility evolved but like many a long and intense conversations, the topic wandered and then disappeared. It seemed like an interesting topic perhaps worth further discussion and exploration. What is your opinion of the two following questions.
> 
> Is there a role for humility in training for self-defense?
> If so what is it?
> ...



 I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT! You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.


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## toddfletcher (Jun 24, 2015)

@wingchunguy - If I understand correctly, the question was regarding "humility" and "self-defense". Self-Defense meaning the study and teaching of a smaller set of techniques for better protecting yourself in a confrontation. The term 'martial arts' as you are referring (and I would agree) encompasses an entire circle of life lessons, fighting, etc..


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## Tez3 (Jun 24, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT! You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.



I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that a great many MMA people aren't all fighters, are pursuing the system 'to the end' and are most likely to be graded martial artists form other systems. I would suggest you rethink the bit about MMA not teaching respect by the way, it certainly does, along with being humble, trust me on this one.  I think before style bashing MMA you should perhaps calm down ie not shout at us in capital letters and actually take the time to learn more about MMA and the people before deriding them.


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## wingchunguy (Jun 24, 2015)

toddfletcher said:


> @wingchunguy - If I understand correctly, the question was regarding "humility" and "self-defense". Self-Defense meaning the study and teaching of a smaller set of techniques for better protecting yourself in a confrontation. The term 'martial arts' as you are referring (and I would agree) encompasses an entire circle of life lessons, fighting, etc..


Right, todd! The term "martial arts" is all-encompassing, and includes not only the techniques needed for self defense, but also the correct mind-set, humility, and spiritual awareness. Like I said, it is a lifetime journey, and each one is different for each individual.


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## wingchunguy (Jun 24, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that a great many MMA people aren't all fighters, are pursuing the system 'to the end' and are most likely to be graded martial artists form other systems. I would suggest you rethink the bit about MMA not teaching respect by the way, it certainly does, along with being humble, trust me on this one.  I think before style bashing MMA you should perhaps calm down ie not shout at us in capital letters and actually take the time to learn more about MMA and the people before deriding them.


No, it doesn't! Where do you see respect when they are all talking trash about each other and getting in each other's faces? I don't think you know what respect means. I know all about the mma. It is a sham and just a sideshow for our amusement, nothing more. If you want to learn REAL respect, then take a traditional martial art, like wing chun or karate.


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## Tez3 (Jun 24, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> No, it doesn't! Where do you see respect when they are all talking trash about each other and getting in each other's faces? I don't think you know what respect means. I know all about the mma. It is a sham and just a sideshow for our amusement, nothing more. If you want to learn REAL respect, then take a traditional martial art, like wing chun or karate.



Really? So you are taking what you see on television and applying it to ALL MMA people, even though you don't know them? As for trash talking aren't you doing exactly the same thing by trash talking MMA and it's practitioners . One would expect better then from someone intent on proving that only TMA's have humble and respectful students.
You obviously don't understand MMA because it is actually made up of traditional martial arts, many of us are what you call traditional martial artists who also chose to train MMA. As I said not everyone fights, many train because they enjoy it, they often also train a single style as well.
As for disrespect you have shown a great deal of that by jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, as for WC I suggest you pop over to that section on here and read some of the 'discussions', it will be educational for you.


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## Buka (Jun 24, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT! You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.



Wow.

I didn't think I'd see "code of conduct" "real Martial Artist", yelling through capitalization and insulting others as a representation of someone who loves the Martial way.

If you printed out your above post and showed it to your Sensei, my guess is he/she would be less than pleased. I know if one of my students spoke like that it would be off to the Martial woodshed for them.


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## ballen0351 (Jun 24, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT.


Says who?


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## Tez3 (Jun 24, 2015)

Please watch through to the end and note the behaviour of the winner. You can also note, whinchunguy, that the techniques are more than adequate for self defence if necessary.
This is from the European Games this week.


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## sacramentotaichi (Jun 25, 2015)

> hu·mil·i·ty
> (h)yo͞oˈmilədē/
> _noun_
> 
> ...




Being humble will help you not get into the situation that needs self defense in the first place. - Tai Chi Sacramento


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## Jenna (Jun 25, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT! You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.


If there is some thing I do not grasp then I would not want you to bother your self too much over it.. there is abundantly plenty of things I do not grasp so you must for the meantime accept my ignorance. I am grateful though you care to correct me.

I have two questions if you mind to answer that will help to clarify.. and if not that is ok too I do not mean you any offence in asking..

1. is the way you practice your wing chun a perfect practice?
2. is your wing chun the way you practice it a perfect art?

thank you


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Jun 25, 2015)

For what its worth, I'm a Shotokan base karateka w. some small circle training..still training solo for a few years now. Afa the capacity to learn control through humility is conscerned, its difficult to select a semantic based syllabus to enlighten this capacity, however I could not see an inability to deal with humility an asset in and of itself.

On the actual applied training aspect, I do have one drill where I use a cable pull/ hoist for a 70lb heavy bag on a footbal field goal post. After I do passing drills (football) and of course striking drills, there is one segment that is based on awarenes and reaction to being hit with the swinging bag in a relaxed state. Its a good test of my temperament to see how I react to the feeling of being pushed without provocation. It's also an interesting physical note on how the body reacts without gaurd.  Added to that being a solo drill I have to come up with some self control reactions...its actually quite telling. I won't lie though..I've gotten angry at the bag before, starring at it like it had some kind of attitude problem. 
>:O


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## Danny T (Jun 26, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> I think ALL of you are missing the point here. The point being that the more secure you become in your skills, the LESS you have to show off. Yes, humility is good in a REAL martial artist and is part of the code of conduct, which NONE of you, especially JENNA, seem to grasp. THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT!


Code of conduct. Interesting choice of words from someone shouting at the rest of us.
As to your statement on "THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE...".
For some yes for others not so much.



wingchunguy said:


> You will find that the higher up the skill level, the LESS arrogant people SHOULD become because they know their own skills and that they are able to handle themselves in a situation. This self-confidence comes through the practitioner much like someone who is self-confident in business does. People pick up on it and respond the same way, with respect. This DOESN'T apply to the MMA because THEY are NOT real martial artists. A real martial artist takes ONE SYSTEM to it's conclusion, learning the WHOLE system, not just bits and pieces of it. THEN and ONLY THEN, if he wants to learn another, complimentary system (like grappling or an internal system), should he proceed. It teaches respect for others also, which mma does NOT teach. Someone who does REAL martial arts makes it a LIFETIME commitment, not just for ten years or however long the career of an mma fighter is.


It appears to me you know little about the MMA field. Yes there are some in mma just as there are in the many other systems who are not very humble, who train with an attitude of I'm better than everyone else but that is not the norm.
I've been in the martial arts for over 40 years. I have trained in boxing, shotokan, wrestling, wing chun, muay thai, pekiti-tirsia kali, tai chi, hapkido, silat, combat submission wrestling and a few others. I am a high level practitioner and instructor in wing chun, muay thai, and pekiti-tirsia. And I coach MMA. Other than muay thai I have witnessed far more respect and admiration by those who are in the mma community toward each other than in any of the other arts.

What you witness on the media is almost always show. It is about building controversy for ticket sales and it is psychological combat. Read the 'Art of War'. Combat sports - MMA is a very respectful group toward each other. You may have to be behind the scenes to see.


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## Mabus (Jun 26, 2015)

Depends how you understand humility. 

I very much like how Don Juan puts it in the Castaneda books:

"The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity."

In this sense, it is paramount, as it has everything to do with awake awareness and a deeper understand of self (know thyself) and will give you a much more appropriate and authentic response to a possibly ultra-violent, hyper volatile, chaotic and spontaneous situation. 

With humility, you will always have the answer. Indeed... It is everything you need to have a beautiful death.


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## elder999 (Jun 26, 2015)

Mabus said:


> . Indeed... It is everything you need to have a beautiful death.


 
-meh- I've seen death, and come close to dying several times.

Desiring or aspiring to a "beautiful death," kind of strikes me like praying to God for "courage."


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 26, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT JUST FOR SELF DEFENSE! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE THAT INCLUDES SELF-REALIZATION AND SELF IMPROVEMENT IN BODY, MIND AND SPIRIT!


Old Chinese MA saying said, when you are

- fighting, you should act like a tiger and eat your opponent alive.
- not fighting, you should act like a sheep and be the nicest person on earth.

To me, MA is as simple as "send bad guys to hell, keep good guys on earth".


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## MaxRob (Jun 27, 2015)

Humility in my view has a roll.
We are all vulnerable despite our pain thesholds, the element of humility is actually being aware of what you can do and also what you may not be able to do, self defense is highly situational, humility is a weapon ,they don't see you coming.
Humility is a virtue hard to learn, but it has many advantages.


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## Jenna (Jun 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To me, MA is as simple as "send bad guys to hell, keep good guys on earth".


how can you be sure some one does not think of you as one of those bad guys?


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## Jenna (Jun 28, 2015)

MaxRob said:


> humility is a weapon ,they don't see you coming.


can you explain how it is you put these two together?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 28, 2015)

Jenna said:


> how can you be sure some one does not think of you as one of those bad guys?


When you are

- fighting, you should act like a tiger (bad guy) and eat your opponent alive.
- no fighting, you should act like a sheep (good guy) and be the nicest person on earth.

If someone tries to knock you out, should you knock him out first?


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## Steve (Jun 28, 2015)

Humility is like a sense of humor.   Some people are funny and some are not.   You can learn a few jokes, but if it's not who you are, you will never get a laugh.  

Some people are humble and some are not.   If it's not genuine, it just comes off as insincere, like false modesty.  

  At some point, we should all make peace with who we are.


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## Jenna (Jun 29, 2015)

Steve said:


> At some point, we should all make peace with who we are.


I would be interested if you would explain how you see it Steve.. like is it at a certain age? or when does it happen, as you suggest, that we say.. ok I am at that point, there is no more to be done and nothing that can any longer be changed, I must make peace with who I am??


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## Jenna (Jun 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you are
> 
> - fighting, you should act like a tiger (bad guy) and eat your opponent alive.
> - no fighting, you should act like a sheep (good guy) and be the nicest person on earth.
> ...


so do you become the "tiger (bad guy)" when you are fighting?


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## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you are
> 
> - fighting, you should act like a tiger (bad guy) and eat your opponent alive.
> - no fighting, you should act like a sheep (good guy) and be the nicest person on earth.
> ...




Sounds like a personality disorder frankly.


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## Steve (Jun 29, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I would be interested if you would explain how you see it Steve.. like is it at a certain age? or when does it happen, as you suggest, that we say.. ok I am at that point, there is no more to be done and nothing that can any longer be changed, I must make peace with who I am??


First, just to be clear, I think we can always try to improve ourselves.  But I believe that after about age 6 or 7, the core of a person is pretty much set, and absent a momentous event, these traits are unlikely to ever change very much.  Lazy, humble, thoughtful, shy, competitive.  You are who you are.   As to when we make peace with it?  Sometimes never. 

This isn't to say that you can't be a better version of yourself.


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## pgsmith (Jun 29, 2015)

Steve said:


> First, just to be clear, I think we can always try to improve ourselves.  But I believe that after about age 6 or 7, the core of a person is pretty much set, and absent a momentous event, these traits are unlikely to ever change very much.  Lazy, humble, thoughtful, shy, competitive.  You are who you are.   As to when we make peace with it?  Sometimes never.
> 
> This isn't to say that you can't be a better version of yourself.



  That sounds like a cop-out to me personally. It may become harder to change your basic self as you get older, and your early traits are unlikely to ever change very much _without significant work_. However, to say that a person is the way they were made in their youth sounds like an easy way to avoid taking responsibility for who a person is. We are all responsible for who we are, and can make whatever changes we deem necessary at any age. Anything less is making excuses and passing the buck to avoid the difficult job, in my opinion.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 29, 2015)

Jenna said:


> so do you become the "tiger (bad guy)" when you are fighting?


Yes I do. I also don't teach any students who doesn't have tiger spirit. One guy tried to test his 1st degree black belt. His skill met the requirement, but since in one fight, he was afraid to step into the ring because his opponent was too strong. Without showing his "tiger spirit", his 1st degree black belt testing was denied.

In Chinese wrestling, it's encouraged to play offense and lose than to play defense and win. This kind of mind set is very different from the other MA systems. This is why all the defense and counters are taught a year later (some teachers even teach it 3 years later). The Chinese wrestling system just encourage attack, attack, and still attack. The ACSCA (American Combat Shuai Chiao Association) black belt testing requirement are:

1st degree - attacking skills,
2nd degree - tournament experience and record,
3rd degree - defense and counter skills.

You can see that "defense and counters" are only tested during the 3rd degree black belt time frame.

The "tiger spirit" can be seen in the following clip.








Tez3 said:


> Sounds like a personality disorder frankly.


I have always told my students, "If you are not crazy enough and enjoy to be thrown on the ground 200 times daily, the Chinese wrestling may not be for you."

To me, the "personality disorder" is far from enough.


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## Steve (Jun 29, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> That sounds like a cop-out to me personally. It may become harder to change your basic self as you get older, and your early traits are unlikely to ever change very much _without significant work_. However, to say that a person is the way they were made in their youth sounds like an easy way to avoid taking responsibility for who a person is. We are all responsible for who we are, and can make whatever changes we deem necessary at any age. Anything less is making excuses and passing the buck to avoid the difficult job, in my opinion.


I don't see this as having anything to do with accountability one way or the other.    I personally just think that's the way it goes.  Accept who you are without blinders and work to become the best possible version of yourself you can be.   I even said that in the post you quoted.  Striving to be a better version of yourself sounds like accountability to me. 

Reminds me of the fable about the frog and the scorpion.  A scorpion asks a frog to swim him over to the other side of a river.  The frog is like, 'No way.  You'll sting me and I'll drown."  The scorpion replies, "Why would I do that?  If you drown, I'd drown, too."  This convinced the frog, and so the scorpion climbs onto the frog's back and away they went.

Halfway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog, who begins to feel the paralysis right away.  "Why did you sting me?  Now we'll both drown," said the frog.  "I had to," replied the scorpion.   "It's my nature."


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## pgsmith (Jun 29, 2015)

Steve said:


> I don't see this as having anything to do with accountability one way or the other.    I personally just think that's the way it goes.  Accept who you are without blinders and work to become the best possible version of yourself you can be.   I even said that in the post you quoted.  Striving to be a better version of yourself sounds like accountability to me.
> 
> Reminds me of the fable about the frog and the scorpion.  A scorpion asks a frog to swim him over to the other side of a river.  The frog is like, 'No way.  You'll sting me and I'll drown."  The scorpion replies, "Why would I do that?  If you drown, I'd drown, too."  This convinced the frog, and so the scorpion climbs onto the frog's back and away they went.
> 
> Halfway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog, who begins to feel the paralysis right away.  "Why did you sting me?  Now we'll both drown," said the frog.  "I had to," replied the scorpion.   "It's my nature."



  You're entitled to your beliefs, but I vehemently do not agree with them. In my mind, they leave entirely too much room for excuses. I used to tell my Scouts, and my own kids, that if you find yourself making an excuse, stop and figure out what you messed up so you don't do it again as you never have an excuse without messing something up first.   Your idea that we are the way we are, and can only hope to improve upon the way we are rather than rebuild our own character, just sounds to me like an excuse waiting to happen. It's a really simple thing for a person to say " ... sorry, but that's just the way I am" rather than facing the difficult job of changing themselves into something better.

  Of course, that's just my opinion and I'm sure other's will vary.


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## Steve (Jun 29, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> You're entitled to your beliefs, but I vehemently do not agree with them. In my mind, they leave entirely too much room for excuses. I used to tell my Scouts, and my own kids, that if you find yourself making an excuse, stop and figure out what you messed up so you don't do it again as you never have an excuse without messing something up first.   Your idea that we are the way we are, and can only hope to improve upon the way we are rather than rebuild our own character, just sounds to me like an excuse waiting to happen. It's a really simple thing for a person to say " ... sorry, but that's just the way I am" rather than facing the difficult job of changing themselves into something better.
> 
> Of course, that's just my opinion and I'm sure other's will vary.


If there's one thing we truly, vehemently disagree on, is that one should be so unhappy with who they are that they would want or need to fundamentally rebuild their own character.  That's a sad statement.  The person who is so broken that they must rebuild their character is the exception, and not the rule.  I can't think of anyone, particularly any kids, who are so wrecked that their core personality should be "rebuilt." 

But you and I agree about excuses and accountability. AND that doesn't contradict what I've said earlier. Can you see how that is so? If not, I'm still not being clearIf we must agree to disagree, so be it.  I'm just not sure I'm being clear, so please allow me one more shot.

I'm a lazy guy by nature.  But I'm also accountable.  I will happily and joyfully waste a lazy Sunday sitting on my back patio smoking a brisket or a pork butt, reading books and accomplishing nothing in particular.  that's my idea of a great day.  If I could do that every day, I couldn't be happier. 

But I also understand that if I don't mow the lawn it won't get done.  I understand that if I don't get my work done, I am accountable for it.  Over time, I have acquired sufficient self discipline to be lazy when it's time to be lazy and to work hard when it's time to work hard.  I haven't learned to not be lazy.  Can't be done.  It's my nature.  But I can be accountable for the repurcussions of allowing myself to be lazy when there is work that must be done.  

Does that make sense?  Accepting of one's nature, including the ones that are "negative" and also being accountable.  Much more positive life lesson, IMO, than recommending that people rebuild themselves from the ground up.


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## Jenna (Jun 30, 2015)

This is diverging from the OP point a little which was more about self defence rather than general demeanours of heads-down -and possibly hands-in-prayer- humility.. I had asked the question about humility in SD in particular.. all I had meant was that humility in our own defence is to concede.. yes I can be beat, or.. no I am not always assured of victory.. And why? because then we can stop pretending perfection in our SD or stop defending our practice when it is not entirely defensible.. and we can therefore openly look at the holes and flaws and we rectify those.. only this does not even mean we can say.. oh, I have looked at my weak left front kick or I have a technique to counteract my short reach and so now my SD practice is perfect.. no! if we keep a mind of humility that allow us to concede our failings and use it to continue to rectify, repair holes and improve then surely this is to our good?? the idea was not to be perfect.. the idea is keep at bay the tendence evident in MA which permits one to argue.. my art is better/best.. even see that in this very thread! and that might lead to complacency and complacency in SD is what get people hurt when it could be avoided.. any way that is what my point is though it is lost in among other very different ideas and but that is what I was meaning Jx


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## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2015)

Jenna said:


> This is diverging from the OP point a little which was more about self defence rather than general demeanours of heads-down -and possibly hands-in-prayer- humility.. I had asked the question about humility in SD in particular.. all I had meant was that humility in our own defence is to concede.. yes I can be beat, or.. no I am not always assured of victory.. And why? because then we can stop pretending perfection in our SD or stop defending our practice when it is not entirely defensible.. and we can therefore openly look at the holes and flaws and we rectify those.. only this does not even mean we can say.. oh, I have looked at my weak left front kick or I have a technique to counteract my short reach and so now my SD practice is perfect.. no! if we keep a mind of humility that allow us to concede our failings and use it to continue to rectify, repair holes and improve then surely this is to our good?? the idea was not to be perfect.. the idea is keep at bay the tendence evident in MA which permits one to argue.. my art is better/best.. even see that in this very thread! and that might lead to complacency and complacency in SD is what get people hurt when it could be avoided.. any way that is what my point is though it is lost in among other very different ideas and but that is what I was meaning Jx




To be honest I've only ever met or read of two people who think their SD is perfect and both of them on here, one stated he never has any trouble because he's a big guy and knows BJJ the other was a fantasist bouncer. everyone I know is always looking to improve, to find those weaknesses and rectify them because you can't stop learning and you can't stop trying but you do need confidence in the abilities you do have.
The other thing is do you mean that when fighting for your life in a SD situation you should be able to concede if you feel you can't win? If so that is not an attitude that is healthy not is it a good attitude to take if attacked without provocation or at random. If you mean that you should think that before YOU start a fight over something stupid then yes I agree.


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## Jenna (Jun 30, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> The other thing is do you mean that when fighting for your life in a SD situation you should be able to concede if you feel you can't win?


no Tez.. this conceding would be*before* there is ever any defence or any thought of any fight.. before this when there is plenty of time to work on the areas of shortfall or weakness, it is far too late when SD skills are needed to think of any thing.. this is why complacency that say -like some one earlier- my MA is great and yours is not, display lacking humility that can lead to that person not ever stopping to concede their weaknesses.. this is what I mean by humility in SD, nothing else..  Jx


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