# Bong gerk vs Tan gerk



## Kwan Sau (Jan 7, 2015)

Figured I'd get a wing chun technical discussion started...

Does your particular lineage / brand / flavor of wing chun contain these two leg shapes?
Are they physically formed the same or are there differences in shape?
Or, is it simply a matter of where on your own leg (Bong gerk / Tan gerk) intercepts the opponents leg that makes it one or the other?
Welcome any discussion...thx gents.


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## geezer (Jan 7, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Figured I'd get a wing chun technical discussion started...
> 
> Does your particular lineage / brand / flavor of wing chun contain these two leg shapes?
> Are they physically formed the same or are there differences in shape?
> ...


 
I've met pratctitoners who are are just "naturals" with their legs, or who grew up playing soccer/football or hackey sack and are much more comfortable with lead-leg fighting, using their legs a lot more actively than I do. In my personal WC I do better to keep my legs on the ground as much as I can. The following videoclip by Alex Richter (same lineage, different organization) pretty much agrees with my perspective on Bong and Tan Gherk.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 7, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Figured I'd get a wing chun technical discussion started...
> 
> Does your particular lineage / brand / flavor of wing chun contain these two leg shapes?
> Are they physically formed the same or are there differences in shape?
> ...


----------------------------------------------------------------
Paralleling the hands- legs can also have bong, tan and fook gerk- among other leg formations-sui, jut etc---
depends on what side of the leg structure is being used. Close quarters work where hands are touching.
Yes- the interception area is the key.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 7, 2015)

geezer said:


> I've met pratctitoners who are are just "naturals" with their legs, or who grew up playing soccer/football or hackey sack and are much more comfortable with lead-leg fighting, using their legs a lot more actively than I do. In my personal WC I do better to keep my legs on the ground as much as I can. The following videoclip by Alex Richter (same lineage, different organization) pretty much agrees with my perspective on Bong and Tan Gherk.



Thx Geezer. 
So, in your (Alex's) lineage...the Tan gerk is differentiated by whether the knee is rotated outward (Tan gerk) vs inward (Bong gerk)? Am I understanding your video clip correctly?


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 7, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Paralleling the hands- legs can also have bong, tan and fook gerk- among other leg formations-sui, jut etc---
> depends on what side of the leg structure is being used. Close quarters work where hands are touching.
> Yes- the interception area is the key.



Thanks Vaj. So a Bong gerk can look exactly like a Tan gerk...but whether it is a 'bong' or a 'tan' depends on whether or not it (the deflection of the opponents leg) is happening on the inside of your leg vs the outside, correct?


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## geezer (Jan 7, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Thx Geezer.
> So, in your (Alex's) lineage...the Tan gerk is differentiated by whether the knee is rotated outward (Tan gerk) vs inward (Bong gerk)? Am I understanding your video clip correctly?


 
I look at the leg positions as roughly analogous to the hand positions, like Joy stated above. So when there is an opeing I go forward, if I encounter a leg attack, I lift my knee (wu gherk), if the attack is on the outside of my leg it may press my leg into tan gherk, or if it is on the inside it may press my leg into a bong gherk, but my real goal is to intercept and kick/strike. Basically just  _"Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung"_ ...applied to stance, steps, hands and legs.


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## Danny T (Jan 7, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Thanks Vaj. So a Bong gerk can look exactly like a Tan gerk...but whether it is a 'bong' or a 'tan' depends on whether or not it (the deflection of the opponents leg) is happening on the inside of your leg vs the outside, correct?


And the knee may or may not be outward based upon the situation.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 7, 2015)

Danny T said:


> And the knee may or may not be outward based upon the situation.



Thanks Danny.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2015)

geezer said:


> I encounter a leg attack, ...


You can use it as your "enter strategy" as well. When you have right side forward and your opponent has

- right side forward (uniform stance), you can use your inward leg
- left side forward (mirror stance), you can use your outward leg

to jam your opponent's leading leg. You can then add a "scoop" to take him down.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can use it as your "enter strategy" as well. When you have right side forward and your opponent has
> 
> - right side forward (uniform stance), you can use your inward leg
> - left side forward (mirror stance), you can use your outward leg
> ...




Yes, I am aware of this. Thx.
This is more to do with terminology and shape, not entering. Thx for your input though.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 7, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Thanks Vaj. So a Bong gerk can look exactly like a Tan gerk...but whether it is a 'bong' or a 'tan' depends on whether or not it (the deflection of the opponents leg) is happening on the inside of your leg vs the outside, correct?


------------------------------

Lord Kwan
The knee joint will be somewhat equivalent to the elbow. Just as bong sao is on the pinkie side of the hand bridge, so bong gerk wil be on the little toe side of the foot bridge. Tan sao is on the thumb side and for tan gerk the knee will rotate  to have the bridge on the big toe side of the bridge.

Confederate dollars are in the mail(g)


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 7, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------
> 
> Lord Kwan
> The knee joint will be somewhat equivalent to the elbow. Just as bong sao is on the pinkie side of the hand bridge, so bong gerk wil be on the little toe side of the foot bridge. Tan sao is on the thumb side and for tan gerk the knee will rotate  to have the bridge on the big toe side of the bridge.
> ...



Excellent.  Thanks for the feedback Sri Swami Vaj!   ;-)


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## geezer (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm not sure if our way of doing bong/tan gherk is the same as Joy's (Vajramusdi) or not. His big toe-little toe analogy left me a little confused.  However, like him we also view the leg and knee as analogous to the arm and elbow, but _upside down_ ...like a p is to a b if you get my drift.

For example, if you stand on one leg with the knee raised and foot slightly extended while positioning the same side arm in a tan sau you will see that they "mirror" each other. And, just as a tan-sau (spreading-hand) most commonly deflects incoming attacks to the outside, so the tan-gherk (spreading-leg) deflects to the outside.

On the other hand with bong-sau, the elbow typically rolls over and deflects attacks _across_ the body to the opposite side. So too with our bong-gherk, the knee rolls inward and deflects the attack across to the opposite side.

In either case, I prefer to stick and deflect using as little movement as possible, slipping free and converting either tan or bong gherk into a counter-kick or intruding step at the first opportunity. The kind of _chi-gherk_ style "leg fencing" some experts love to demonstrate is a very risky approach in my book. Looks great though.


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## Thunder Foot (Jan 8, 2015)

We also have the tan and bong gerk used as demo'd in close quarters. We usually follow with a kick to the support leg. 
We also use a lan version. 
As for long distance, we believe the techs have just as much merit as we look to also answer those we can't go straight in on. In those cases, we believe stepping in to block with the knee is added assurance as opposed to potentially getting kicked. dummy form.
The frontal kick defense we also have a similar response for an option... but I suppose we do the tan gerk and yup gerk simultaneously.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 9, 2015)

My lineage (Duncan Leung) has both bong gerk and tan gerk and also lan gerk, which differs from tan by energy and application, more than shape.


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## Kwan Sau (Feb 12, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> My lineage (Duncan Leung) has both bong gerk and tan gerk and also lan gerk, which differs from tan by energy and application, more than shape.



Thx. So, does your knee location change between the two? (ie Tan vs bong gerk?)


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## ShortBridge (Feb 12, 2015)

I watched most of that video. It's hard to not react to the words people use. Let me say that I think I mostly agree with what's he's communicating. There are a few things that might challenge or express differently if he and I were sitting down for a soda pop, but if I ignore the linguistic differences of how we talk about this, I'm pretty much consistent with what he's demonstrating. 

Does my knee position move between bong gerk and tan gerk? Yes, but it's really not about that. It has much more to do with intent and expression of each position.

Maybe if I understood better what you were trying to understand or resolve, I could be less oblique. It it just about the name that goes with the shape or something else?

I still photo of lan gerk would actually look a more similar to tan gerk than bong gerk does, but a video of them would appear quite different.

What if I asked:  What is the difference between a pak sao and a palm strike?


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> I watched most of that video. It's hard to not react to the words people use. Let me say that I think I mostly agree with what's he's communicating. There are a few things that might challenge or express differently if he and I were sitting down for a soda pop, but if I ignore the linguistic differences of how we talk about this, I'm pretty much consistent with what he's demonstrating....



Yea, differences of terminology between different groups, even within the Yip Man lineage can make verbal or written communication tough. Even more so for people (like me) that don't speak Cantonese. Heck, I even have trouble with that term _soda pop._ Do you mean a sweet _carbonated beverage_?


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## ShortBridge (Feb 12, 2015)

geezer said:


> ... Heck, I even have trouble with that term _soda pop._ Do you mean a sweet _carbonated beverage_?



You know, that stuff that the jerk pulls from the fountain when you're stepping out with your gal?


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> You know, that stuff that the jerk pulls from the fountain when you're stepping out with your gal?



So you do speak geezer (aka old-phart)! Much respect. Anyway it's good to have you posting here on Martial Talk. It's always good to have another informed perspective.

Now back to that Lan Gerk. I would understand that as a "bar-leg" based on lan-sau being translated as "bar arm".  Do you apply it as a block, a deflection, or as a strike? What is it's intent?


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## ShortBridge (Feb 12, 2015)

So, first let me say that we're probably speaking on the edges of my expertise as well. I understand these 3 kicks relate to a tri-pole set that I don't formally know. I've been told some of these things by someone very senior in my lineage, but I don't want to quote him because I might misrepresent something and wouldn't want it attributed to him.

I will also caveat that I don't speak Cantonese either and I don't mean to get caught up in the words too much, which I was avoiding in response to the video too. It's about the training and the application in the end.

That said, yes "barring leg". The difference in application for me is intent. Lan is a bridge, a cover, might have some turning, but is fairly rigid. Tan gerk has much more circular expression and whipping power is generated from the hips. It can cover, but it can also function as a kick, usually to the inside of a knee or inner thigh. In a still photo, they might look the same, but how you perform them and what you intend to do with them is very different.

So, to the OP. The differences in tan and bong gerk are much greater than where your knee is pointed in my mind. The similarities between bong gerk and what I was taught is lan gerk. I practice and use tan gerk very differently.

Again, I'm at the fringes of my comfort-ability of linguistic expertise here. I can't confidently defend my terms, but in training, I feel I have these things pretty straight. This is just how I understand them and one of the reasons I'm here is to challenge my own understanding of this system.

Interested in your thoughts as well.


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## Kwan Sau (Feb 13, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> I understand these 3 kicks relate to a tri-pole set....



Ok, so how about the orientation of your foot during the execution of Tan gerk, Bong gerk, & Lan gerk. Is it constant or changing? Or, like you and others have mentioned, it isnt positioning that matters per se...just intent(?)

For what its worth I too dont parlay the language...and I can use the leg arsenal of wing chun just fine... I'm just curious about these two kicks, how they are shaped, and named, in others' wing chun. 

Thanks!


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## ShortBridge (Feb 13, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> ... I can use the leg arsenal of wing chun just fine...



Well, I wouldn't worry about it then.


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## Kwan Sau (Feb 14, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> Well, I wouldn't worry about it then.




Well, I am NOT WORRIED about it at all...   I am curious. And, this is a discussion forum.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 14, 2015)

Ah, see, linguistics again. Words will be our ultimate undoing. 

I get the curiosity, I do it too. Not sure I can articulate anything further on these movements, though. Hopefully someone else can step in and pick the conversation up.


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## geezer (Feb 14, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> ...Not sure I can articulate anything further on these movements, though. *Hopefully someone else can step in* and pick the conversation up.



Be careful what you wish for! 
https://kristaopettaa.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/humpty-dumpty.jpg?w=540

Anyway, if you are good enough (and I'm not) almost anything you can do with your hands can be done with your legs and feet. So if you have  chain punching, pak sau, tan sau, bong sau, lan sau, gum sau and so on, it follows that you will often have something analogous with the feet and legs ...whatever you call it. 

About the only limitation is that, *unless you have a stout tail like a kangaroo*, you need to only work one leg at a time since you need the other to stand on. Me, I want that tail!:

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/kangaroo-boxing.jpg


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## yak sao (Feb 14, 2015)

but isn't that against the marquess de queensberry rules?


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