# What Religion??



## Shogun

I know there is going to be some debate about this topic. some people wont answer this question, and thats fine. Its a simple question really. War is not needed. 

I am a practicing Shinto.
link to Shrine


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Don't think there's a name for it. Oddly, though, some guiding Shinto & shugendo thought (Hongwanji), as well as old animalistic shamanism (Great Uncle Walter, recently passed in WA). In our souls, we are divine. Stages of seperation secondary to limitations of perception cause us to superimpose interceding structures between us, and the percieved-as-seperate-but-not-really divine. 

Divine = the progenitor of creation, made as a vehicle to expand on self-exploration. Creation = the mirror the creator gazes in to to learn about, and explore, all aspects of experience. No seperation or difference...just love looking at itself. 

Lotsa argle-bargle; not much huffle-puff.

D.


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## michaeledward

Athiest!


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## shesulsa

I'm not much into organized religion - more of a spiritualist.


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## Genin Andrew

I am a catholic. I also have a roots in Taoism as it is a big part of my art.Although not necessarily a "religion" so to speak The Tao still has a big influence on my spiritual side and development in martial arts.

I am also very interested in Shinto,although never practiced it i just like its "loose" structure and its great appreciation/worship of the natural environment.I think thats a great aspect of many religions that should be more strongly enforced.


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## TigerWoman

Christian


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## Scout_379

No idea yet,  but I lean more towards the asiatic philosophies
currently learning about buddism <---liking the concepts so far!


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## Zepp

Judaism


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## auxprix

Well, many would consider me an athiest, But that's not something I identify with. IMO, all religion has some good insight to offer. I believe that the general life lessons of all religion are largly universal. At the same time, I am unable to accept that there is a higher power.

I consider myself a christian who doesn't believe in divinity. I say that because I was raised christian, and cling to mainly those values. I've also learned alot from studying Buddhism.

Shogun, I'm very intrigued. Are you Japanese, or did you just stumble upon Shintoism and decide that it was what you wanted to practice?


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## CanuckMA

Judaism


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## Gary5000

I'm Morman and PROUD of it.


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## Sarah

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm not much into organized religion - more of a spiritualist.


Same Here


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## Gary5000

At least there's another MORMAN on board!:boing2:


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## MA-Caver

Predominately Christian in my base beliefs but have interspersed my experiences with many different religions/faiths. I guess I'm a closet Buddihist because I identify so closely with many of their beliefs as well. I guess one could say that my Religion is like JKD of Theology, learning from each and finding the truths related to my own core/base belief system. Even studying Satanism for a *VERY* brief period helped me to see the dark so to compare it to the light and to know the differences in my heart/soul if the need arises. 
I honestly did TRY being an athiest, but my own heart/soul tells me that it would be impossible for me to do so when I have seen/felt/acknowledged/experienced so much during my life's span on this earth...  :idunno: what can I say?  





> a respectful :asian: to michaeledward


Because I hang out with them chances are that later this year I'll convert to Latter-Day Saint (Mormon --- take note of the spelling Gary), I've been lovingly called a dry-mormon for years.  :idunno: wonder why?


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Agnostic


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## mj-hi-yah

Shesulsa I like the way you think!


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## shesulsa

And I, you, MJ!


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## Feisty Mouse

Eastern Orthodox.  (For those of you saying, "Hhhhhhuuuh??", it's the oldest and most traditional branch of Christianity.  You might see signs for Greek Orthodox or Coptic Orthodox or Russian Orthodox churches...etc etc etc.)


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## Enson

christian


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Agnostic


Hopeful doubter?


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## someguy

I'm a Christian.


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## Scout_379

nm quote edited out
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




someguy, it was your quote! lol weird opinion!


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## Mark Weiser

Here is one for ya. I am a Ben Noachide, in Judaism, a Rightesous Gentile.


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## Shogun

> Shogun, I'm very intrigued. Are you Japanese, or did you just stumble upon Shintoism and decide that it was what you wanted to practice?


 I am half native american (Wyandotte, Koyukon, Alaskan eskimo). I grew up with mostly Shamanistic beliefs (G-dad inspired), but was drawn to shintoism about 3 years ago. I started practicing certain parts of shintoism about 2 years ago, at the Tsubaki shrine, in Granite falls, WA.

thanks


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## OULobo

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Eastern Orthodox.  (it's the oldest and most traditional branch of Christianity.)



Not to start a holy war, but that's debatable.

I'm a practicing psudo-Roman Catholic. 

I guess I owe an explanation. I still go to a Roman Catholic church and I still follow the rituals, but I don't believe completely in some of the Vatican's choices, tenants and beliefs, most specifically that you have to believe in only their choices, tenants and beliefs. Basically I'm a free thinking Catholic that won't tow the party line because I believe I am an adult that can make my own decisions. I spent some time researching other beliefs and experiencing their worship practices, and to some extent I am a grand connectionist. I see them as the same with subtle unique differences.


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## Shodan

Christian here


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## Feisty Mouse

> Not to start a holy war, but that's debatable.


 

Allow me to rephrase - after the Great Schism (c. 1000AD), the Catholic church continued to evolve, continued on with the papacy, etc.  Orthodoxy has remained remarkably the same since, oh, maybe the 4th or 5th century AD.


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## OULobo

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Allow me to rephrase - after the Great Schism (c. 1000AD), the Catholic church continued to evolve, continued on with the papacy, etc.  Orthodoxy has remained remarkably the same since, oh, maybe the 4th or 5th century AD.



Good by me. :boing2:


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## OUMoose

I like that term "spiritualist"

I don't conform to a religion, but have my own tenet of beliefs.


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## Josh

Joint Heir with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, no religion needed.


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## Feisty Mouse

I am not sure what "joint heir" means.  Do you consider yourself a Christian of some denomination or particular sect, or something else entirely?

Just curious.


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## Jay Bell

> Hopeful doubter?



More to point...hopeful, don't spend a great deal of time caring either way.


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## PeachMonkey

Atheist.

 Many of the world's spiritual traditions have valuable teachings, though, and studies of all religions are enlightening.


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## Mark Lynn

Christian

I lean more to the Calvinist side although I'm not a true five pointer.  A friend calls me some kind of name for it though.

Mark


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## Ray

Even though their are several "brands" of religion, I like the definition given in the New Testament:

James 1:27:  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Regardless of our theology, I think the actions (of charity and love) are going to have more consequence than our particular faith.

Nevertheless, I am a Mormon.


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## Darksoul

-Human.

-To me, when you strip away all else, you're left with being human. I like to study about other religions, but haven't found anything that I could believe in, or feel inspired to practice. Most of what I've seen out there is good, regardless of affiliation, although my mind has rejected a great deal of it in terms of a viable option for spiritual growth. Most religions do share the same values, so makes you wonder why we all can't get along.

-Walking my own path.


A---)


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## Adept

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Atheist.
> 
> Many of the world's spiritual traditions have valuable teachings, though, and studies of all religions are enlightening.


 Ditto that.


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## ninhito

Roman Catholic would be the first organuzed christain religion then Eastern Orthordox or Coptic with the fall of the western empire of Rome.


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## BrandiJo

christian .. seventhday adventist


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## Dan Anderson

Scientologist.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## markulous

I really don't have a "religion".  Anything that is fixed and static will eventually be wrong because all things change.  I have a lot of Buddhist values and I pray to Jesus.  I have a basic structure of things but my views on things are constantly growing and changing.


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## Dan Anderson

2 cents worth here.  I am very impressed by the civility and manners in this thread.  Excellent that we can be of different religeous beliefs without slamming those who do not share another's views.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> 2 cents worth here.  I am very impressed by the civility and manners in this thread.  Excellent that we can be of different religeous beliefs without slamming those who do not share another's views.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



Gosh...scientologists are so weird...lol :roflmao:

Sorry Dan...I couldn't resist!


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## bignick

Christian, Lutheran....

Not "actively" practicing at the time.  I still believe, still have faith...but don't go to church.  I actually wrote a paper about this when I was a freshman in college.  The basis was how fed up I was with what I saw in a lot of organized religion.  I summed myself of like this...

Since one of the definitions of atheism isn't necessarily about believing there is no god, but that man can do better, I described myself as an atheist who had lost faith in my religion.  Not that I believe all of mankind is horrible...but I think that we've got a lot more to learn before we can say that we have it all figured out...


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## Dan Anderson

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Gosh...scientologists are so weird...lol :roflmao:
> 
> Sorry Dan...I couldn't resist!


Paul,
If I didn't know you were a swine, I'd think you were a swine.   :ultracool 

Dan


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## Digger70chall

christian here


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## The Prof

Hi,

Why would anyone go to war over an honest question?  I am happy with the way the responses were witten, I hope the you are too.

Prof


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## Skankatron Ltd

Hah! I have my own religion! You could call me spiritual, I guess. I beleive my philosophies, and my philosophies happen to include god, though not some old guy with a beard on a throne. In fact, in my philosophy god neither cares about right or wrong, happiness or sadness, and in fact can't necessarily comprehend them. God is everything, nothing, can't communicate, yet communicates constantly. Think of a paradox and that's most likely god. Think of anything, in fact. God IS everything, and..... I think that's it.


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## Skankatron Ltd

War over religion is about the stupidest thing I can think of. As far as I know, there are VERY few religions which say war, killing, or burning towns/cities to the ground is OK. Leave that to god, you won't be doing the will of god by killing 'hethen' pagans.
I realize you might think this kind of goes against my philosophy (you know, of everything being god), but no. It's very complicated, I'll try and put it into words.... So..... ok. We choose things and they become the will of god. If you want the will of god (because everything is god, for lack of a better word) to be going around killing people then go for it, but you're going backwards. I ussually have to rely on people groking (understanding) my philosophy on their own since it is highly limited by words. It's kind of like "the dao".


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## markulous

I agree war doesn't make sense.  If we all just tolerated each other's beliefs and accepted that we are all different the there wouldn't be any religious wars.  Killing hundreds/thousands "in the name of God" doesn't get you any closer to God.  They are only hurting themselves in the long run.


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## elder999

I practice a few forms of Native American sprituality, but I believe that there's beauty and truth to be found in almost all religious traditions.


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## Jaymeister

I'm technically a christian, but for the last couple of years I've been considering converting to islam.


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## Shaolinwind

I am both Agnostic and dyslexic.  I can't tell you how many nights I lost sleep wondering if there really is a dog.


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## Eldritch Knight

I was born and raised a Hindu. Recently, though, I've found that my belief structure has shifted more towards Buddhism/Taoism, so now I consider myself a practitioner of all three until I can sort out the dogmatic conflicts.


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## SwedishChef

Jaymeister said:
			
		

> I'm technically a christian, but for the last couple of years I've been considering converting to islam.


This may not be the greatest time for that.  Why by the way?

Being a good Scandi I'm partial to attending a Lutheran Church but in reality I hate denominations--Christian is good enough for me.


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## thesensei

I am a born-again believer in Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father, but by me."

I was born under the penalty of sin, living under the wrath of God, and on my way to Hell.  But now, by the grace of God, I am a new man, sanctified (but no better than you  :ultracool ), washed in the blood of the Lamb, accepted in the beloved, and on my way to Heaven!  WOW - what that'll do for your self-image! :CTF: 

If you want to know more, you can check out: How to Know for Sure 


Salute
JB


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## Jaymeister

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> This may not be the greatest time for that.  Why by the way?


I'm aware that islam doesn't have the best reputation, but the more I learn about it, the more I find that most criticism of it is based on ignorance. The reason that I've considered converting, is that I simply find it to fit me better than christianity.


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## Shaolinwind

Chobaja said:
			
		

> I am both Agnostic and dyslexic. I can't tell you how many nights I lost sleep wondering if there really is a dog.


But in all seriousness, I'm agnostic bordering athiest.  I am not one for believing something I can't see or get any proof of at all.  Sometimes I think that the whole heaven concept is too good to be true and just a way for people to cope with death in general.  Heaven sounds fun, hell sounds like a drag but oblivion is truly terrifying.


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## Gemini

I grew up Protestant. I raise my kids Catholic, but I don't, and never have, considered myself a religious man. I'm a Christian. That's enough.


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## Brother John

Christianity. 
I don't ascribe to any single 'denomination', even the very church I attend I don't FULLY agree with. 
I see it as a very personal relationship with my creator and His creation. It's important to me. I think that knowing what you believe and why, no matter what it IS that you believe, is very important!
...and once you 'know'...you must "do". 
There's the trick.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Many of the world's spiritual traditions have valuable teachings, though, and studies of all religions are enlightening.



GOOD POINT!





Your Brother
John


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## FearlessFreep

_ The reason that I've considered converting, is that I simply find it to fit me better than christianity._

I'm curious what that means.  I mean, Christianity or Islam or whatever are about the nature of reality and what is truth.  It's not about 'what fits me' but abuot 'what is true'.  Jesus is either God, as the Christian believe, or just a man and prophet, as the Muslims believe.  Mohammad was either the greatest prophet of God, as the Muslims believe, or a false prophet, as the Christians believe.  It's not a matter of "What fits me" but "what I think is true".  Like a physics scientist saying "well, I believe in string theory 'cause it fits me better".  It should be "I believe in string theory because after looking at the evidence, I think it is the truth"

I guess I'm not sure I understand the idea of "I believe one thing but I'm thinking of believing something else because it fits me better?"  What do you beleive to be true?


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## tsdclaflin

I am a "pentecostal" Christian...

Pentecostal = we believe that God still works miracles and heals people in response to our prayer

Christian = disciple or follower of Jesus Christ, literally "little Christ" or "Christ-like"

And BTW, I'm an ordained minister.


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## Marginal

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I guess I'm not sure I understand the idea of "I believe one thing but I'm thinking of believing something else because it fits me better?"  What do you beleive to be true?


You're dealing with levels of subjective "truths" in this case. Along similar lines, if you take TKD, but see a boxing match one day, and boxing seems more appealing to you and you take up boxing instead, does that make one truer than the other? 

Or a musician that focuses mainly on the piano. Why do that? What's more "right" about the piano than a xylophone?


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## Jaymeister

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I'm curious what that means.  I mean, Christianity or Islam or whatever are about the nature of reality and what is truth.  It's not about 'what fits me' but abuot 'what is true'.  Jesus is either God, as the Christian believe, or just a man and prophet, as the Muslims believe.  Mohammad was either the greatest prophet of God, as the Muslims believe, or a false prophet, as the Christians believe.  It's not a matter of "What fits me" but "what I think is true".  Like a physics scientist saying "well, I believe in string theory 'cause it fits me better".  It should be "I believe in string theory because after looking at the evidence, I think it is the truth"
> 
> I guess I'm not sure I understand the idea of "I believe one thing but I'm thinking of believing something else because it fits me better?"  What do you beleive to be true?


As I wrote earlier, I'm only technically a christian. My parents are protestants, and therefor I'm a member of the protestant church. Until a few years ago I'd never even thought about religion, so it's not like I used to believe in christianity and now believe in islam. As far as what is true, who can say? There is no way we'll ever have any solid evidence that one religion is correct, so my interest in islam is based on the tenets of it.


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## searcher

Christian.  I attend an independant, fundamental, bible-believing, bible banging, foot stomping, pew jumping, door knocking, soul winning, devil chasing, sin hating, King James only version Baptist.   If you want the specifics.


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## TonyM.

Raised roman catholic, now see God in everything ala Gandhi.


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## AikidoCal

Shogun said:
			
		

> I know there is going to be some debate about this topic. some people wont answer this question, and thats fine. Its a simple question really. War is not needed.
> 
> I am a practicing Shinto.
> link to Shrine


War isn't needed....if you are someone who is satisfied with what you have. Unfortunately people are not satisfied and war takes place. 

Aikido is influenced heavily by the idea of war is not needed, that come in part from Shinto and O'Sensei's experience being part of a war politically and physically. He felt war and violence isn't a good thing. That peace and harmony are for the betterment of society. With the understanding that there are people who don't feel as you do. As idealistic as this is, I think it was a movement to have the majority of people embrace the avoidance of war, and the acceptance of peace and harmony among people. The problem is people want more and want what others have, this creates war. 

I brought up Aikido because of Shinto's influence on Aikido.


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## goshawk

Hmm. If I wanted to get technical about it, I'd say I'm a Solitary Ecclectic Non-Denominational Neo-Pagan. Generally, I label myself a witch, get the initial reaction over with, and answer questions.

No sacrifices except from myself, final responsibility for all my actions, recognition of the "divine" in everything. I'm still having some trouble defining what that "divine" is for me. But I guess the thing to say about my religion (would spirituality be a better term here?) is that I can find as much transcendence in a busride as I can in an hour-long meditation, and as much ritual in a freestyle sparring class as in a full Catholic Latin Mass.

Oh, and a big thing for me is tolerance. Most of the religions out there are not for me; I don't enjoy restrictions on worship as I consider it to be an extremely private part of my life. But I have no right to tell someone else their path is wrong.


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## AikidoCal

Is anyone a Druid? In Northern California there is a town that was dedicated to the Druid religion? At one time, possibilily still many of the city leaders and community leaders where followers of the Druid religion. They even have a public monument dedicated to the Druid religion on a street corner. Lots of oak trees in that area of California.


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## searcher

AikidoCal said:
			
		

> Is anyone a Druid? QUOTE]
> 
> I am of Celtic/Druidic ascestory, but I am 100% Christian.


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## Jmh7331

Born-again Christian.  Hey Searcher, I like your "specifics"!


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## ed-swckf

I find areas of particular religions interesting, particularly zen buddhism but i am by no means a religious follower of any kind.  I'm not athiest or agnostic either i just don't concern myself with a lot of the questions religions raise.  I concentrate more on on being a respectful and upstanding person and care not of what happens after this life or what came before.


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## 47MartialMan

I am on a new path of new discoveries.

Looking to examine at lot.


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## Makalakumu

AikidoCal said:
			
		

> Is anyone a Druid? In Northern California there is a town that was dedicated to the Druid religion? At one time, possibilily still many of the city leaders and community leaders where followers of the Druid religion. They even have a public monument dedicated to the Druid religion on a street corner. Lots of oak trees in that area of California.


What community are you talking about? Are you referring to Bohemian Grove?

I am Unitarian Universalist.  I'm not sure if I mentioned that before...


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## AikidoCal

The town I was speaking of pertaining to Druids is a small town on the way to Lake Tahoe called Placerville. We passed through some years ago on vacation to Lake Tahoe. We just happened to stop and look around and passed by the monument and read it. On it, it tells about the Druid history of the town I mentioned. I thought it was an interesting thing to have a town in the US to have openly practicing Druids. An old religion you don't hear much of.


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## 47MartialMan

I guess one will find thngs were it is least expected


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## TonyM.

Druidism is a modern religion. Less than two hundred years old.


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## 47MartialMan

I thought is was a little older than that


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## BruceCalkins

TonyM. said:
			
		

> Druidism is a modern religion. Less than two hundred years old.


You might want to look deeper. ;-) I have found text on Druids over 2000 years old. Pre Dating Christinanity


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## 47MartialMan

Thats along the lines I was thining, unless he is speaking of something different.


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## Randy Strausbaugh

As far as I can tell, there is no direct link between modern Druids and the Druids of antiquity.  It is a sort of "reconstituted" religion.  That doesn't make it less, of course.  Just more recent.


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## Eldritch Knight

I'd believe that. Something like how you have an emergence of people worshipping ancient Greek or Norse gods and the whole Neo-paganism movement.


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## searcher

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> You might want to look deeper. ;-) I have found text on Druids over 2000 years old. Pre Dating Christinanity


It only pre-dates Christianity in the British Isles.  Remember that we Christians also follow the Old Testament.   Our beliefs are older than 2000 years.


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## 47MartialMan

searcher said:
			
		

> It only pre-dates Christianity in the British Isles. Remember that we Christians also follow the Old Testament. Our beliefs are older than 2000 years.


Not many Christian I know follow Old Testament. Some think that if they did, they wouldnt be "true' Christians.


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## searcher

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Not many Christian I know follow Old Testament. Some think that if they did, they wouldnt be "true' Christians.


And those I feel truely sad for.


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## Ray

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Not many Christian I know follow Old Testament. Some think that if they did, they wouldnt be "true' Christians.


From the Christian view: Mosiac law was done away with Christ.  However, some of the apostles continued to visit and participate at the temple even after the ressurrection.

Many Jewish rituals were done away with by Christians but the some things in the OT are still practiced (adherence to 10 commandments, the greatest and second greatest commandment).


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

I don't know what religion I would qualify as a follower of, but I have a crippling fear that somewhere, for some reason, there is a duck staring at me.


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## Andrew Green

No God(s) for me


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## Bigshadow

I was raised Apostolic Pentacostal (Christian). I do not agree with their views, now that I am an adult. I guess I would consider myself a "Spiritualist" to some degree. I find I can relate more to (what little I know) Mikkyo, Tendai, and possibly Shinto (don't know enough about it). I have no interest in Organized Religion.

 However, I might add that I find there is a commonality throughout most if not all religions, then they become dramatically different.


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## Loki

Atheist, of the "there's no reason to believe in god" school (as opposed to "there is no god").

 Like PeachMoneky and Adept said, most religions teach postivie values. I respect that.


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## Dan Anderson

Loki said:
			
		

> Like PeachMoneky and Adept said, most religions teach postivie values. I respect that.


I would add to the above that most religions teach that a person is a spiritual entity and not just a body (a "meat stick").

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## kenpochad

can any one geuss iam the same religion that SGM Parker was..


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## Loki

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> I would add to the above that most religions teach that a person is a spiritual entity and not just a body (a "meat stick").


 I dunno, meat stick sounds good to me. Beef jerky, anyone?

 But seriously, I doubt it. Not to be disrespectful or anything, but I'm just finishing Dawkin's Selfish Gene and the theory is contagious (a successful meme, if you will).


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## Dan Anderson

Loki said:
			
		

> Not to be disrespectful or anything,


Your statement doesn't sound disrespectful.  It sounds like an opinion stated.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## heretic888

I'm what you could call a Neo-Perennialist, Neo-Hegelian, or Neo-Neo-Platonist D). My beliefs are very much in alignment with the "integral" model of philosopher Ken Wilber.

That being said, the traditional religions I tend to draw the most insight from are the Mahayana Buddhism traditions --- especially Zen and Vajrayana.

Now --- since it was brought up --- regarding Dawkins and evolutionary psychology as a whole (I'm a psych major myself), I tend to treat all that with a very, very skeptical eye. This isn't the first time in human academic history that the proponents of a new school or system of thought are somewhat too "enthusiastic" about many of their claims. My guess is that, over time, evolutionary psychologists will increasingly "temper" or "moderate" the claims of their school, much like neo-Freudians and neo-Marxists have done.

Laterz.  :asian:


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## Seabrook

Shogun said:
			
		

> I know there is going to be some debate about this topic. some people wont answer this question, and thats fine. Its a simple question really. War is not needed.
> 
> I am a practicing Shinto.
> link to Shrine


 
I put all of my faith in Jesus. 

Christianity is not about "religion", it's about relationship. 

This relationship has helped all areas of my life - from family, to marriage, to kenpo, to education, and so on. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## OnlyAnEgg

Me?  Taoist with some Buddhist leanings.

I attend a Pentacostal church because my wife likes it that way.  She knows my soul; but, I tend to keep quiet about it in church.  Don't wanna rile the Pentacostals.

I admire any system that strives to be find a way to be better humans.


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## Mark Barlow

Back Slidden Southern Baptist.


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## IcemanSK

I am a Christian.


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## heretic888

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Christianity is not about "religion", it's about relationship.


 
In much the same way...

Islam is not about "religion", it's about submission. Buddhism is not about "religion", it's about enlightenment. Taoism is not about "religion", it's about harmony. Vedanta is not about "religion", it's about self-realization.

Any religion can switch the word "religion" with its own terminology and rhetoric. That doesn't change the fact it's still a religion.

Laterz.


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## Seabrook

heretic888 said:
			
		

> In much the same way...
> 
> Islam is not about "religion", it's about submission. Buddhism is not about "religion", it's about enlightenment. Taoism is not about "religion", it's about harmony. Vedanta is not about "religion", it's about self-realization.
> 
> Any religion can switch the word "religion" with its own terminology and rhetoric. That doesn't change the fact it's still a religion.
> 
> Laterz.


 
I can understand where you are coming from with your perspective. 

If I may, why the "fish" with "buddha" in the middle?

Thanks.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## heretic888

Seabrook said:
			
		

> If I may, why the "fish" with "buddha" in the middle?


 
Because I personally found it irreverant and hilarious. :boing2: 

Additionally, I have an affinity for certain strands of Mahayana Buddhism and often correlate them with mystical treatises within Christianity.

Laterz.


----------



## Kane

I was born into a Christian family (protestant father, catholic mother) but as I reached my teens I never had much faith in it. I would say I was pretty agnostic in my teens all they way till like a year or two ago when I started reading and studying religion. My parents went bonkers about me not being "saved" if I don't accept Jesus. But I just could accept Jesus beyond what he seemed to me, a wise teacher that may have achieved moksha or nirvana. I truly respect Jesus a lot and tend to have a more Gnostic view of Jesus.

Anyways after studying many of the other great faiths Christianity started to decline even more in my belief. Christianity doesn't seem anything more than mythology, perhaps a more advanced version of Odinism and Zeusism. This is NOT to say I don't believe many of the Bible events happened, but like the Iliad and many other great books, these are mere retellings with more of a supernatural twist. And of course I do still believe the Bible teaches many valid morality but I do not think that it by any means is anywhere near what God is all about. The Old Testament description of an angry God that literally "spreads dung upon people's faces" does not seem to maybe as the real God. The description is just too primitive; I can create a much more detailed better deity than Yahweh .

I am still searching for the truth according to how I can interrupt it but so far I have to say Hinduism has caught my attention than most. The religion seems to be very misunderstood by most people, especially westerners. It really isn't just another polytheistic religion. In fact Hinduism maybe the most complex religion in the world although many people do not know much about it. I reject the rituals and any sort of superstition this family of religions (Hinduism) may teach, but I do believe in the Brahman or ultimate reality as the true God. In my opinion it is just to primitive to put deity like qualities to the supreme "being". We can never know God for sure and Hinduism teaches that in order to really know God you must learn about the universe.

I hold science more than anything else as the true nature of God, so in a sense I am pantheistic. I do however believe in many metaphysical and cosmological views of Hinduism such as the ghost universe paradox. The Rig Veda is filled with many astronomical philosophies cosmologists use today to describe to universe. The cyclical universe theory for example is not a modern scientific theory, the theory is actually a fundamental concept in Hinduism (and now Buddhism as well).

Yoga also seems to be a more ideal way to reach God besides science. I do not believe much in prayer or anything superstitious that cannot really be proven. Prayer works for some but for others it does not work.

I also do have a lot of respect for Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism, Gnosticism and Sufism .


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I put all of my faith in Jesus.
> 
> Christianity is not about "religion", it's about relationship.
> 
> This relationship has helped all areas of my life - from family, to marriage, to kenpo, to education, and so on.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


 
I respect that. Although I'm an agnostic (raised Christian Fundamentalist), I have nothing against Christianity - only those who use it OR other faiths as a weapon against their fellow man. Those who use it as an inspiration and guide have my respect - and protection (politically as in activism against religious intolerance or physically if it really came down to it).


----------



## bcbernam777

I am a christian (follower of Christ)


----------



## Southwell

As Jamie said,I put all my faith in Jesus.


----------



## DeLamar.J

Shogun said:
			
		

> I know there is going to be some debate about this topic. some people wont answer this question, and thats fine. Its a simple question really. War is not needed.
> 
> I am a practicing Shinto.
> link to Shrine


I am a Satanist. If you want clarification of this, I recomend reading the Satanic bible by Anton LaVey. You can also visit the church of satan website, then check out the theory~practice section, that will cover the basics of my religion.
I know what you must be thinking but guess what, satanists dont worship the devil. We dont even belive in the devil. We dont harm children or animals either. These are the main misconseptions of this religion.
Some of the reasons why this religion holds the name Satanism is for shock value, and to keep close minded people away. The down side to this name is that it can attract some real morons who are just involved to stir up trouble and be a rebel. These types normally have no clue, or desire to study this religion to find out what its really about. They misrepresent it, and give it a bad name.
These people sacrifice animals, hurt children, and many other horrible acts that a true Satanist would never have any part of. 
Here are some great links for those who wish to learn more. One of the main things about Satanism is that it demands study not worship, so if your interested here you go.....


 This is a great web site with LOADS of Satanic information www.dpjs.co.uk/

This web site has some great essays by some of the higher up people in the church http://web.satanism101.com/


----------



## heretic888

In other words, it's basically secular humanism with some rather shallow and sporadic usage of Jungian shadow psychology.


----------



## DeLamar.J

heretic888 said:
			
		

> In other words, it's basically secular humanism with some rather shallow and sporadic usage of Jungian shadow psychology.


I guess you could find some similarities there. However, I dont find Satanism to be shallow in any way. It is a very down to earth, honest religion that fits *ME* perfectly.


----------



## heretic888

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> I guess you could find some similarities there. However, I dont find Satanism to be shallow in any way. It is a very down to earth, honest religion that fits *ME* perfectly.


 
I didn't say Satanism itself was shallow.

I said the way Satanism employs Jungian psychology is shallow and sporadic. The way they present the 'Other' archetype demonstrates a considerable lack of proper context in understanding.

Laterz.


----------



## Cujo

Roman Catholic, Veeerrrry Roman Catholic.

Pax
Cujo


----------



## TheBattousai

Southern Baptist, but much more liberal than most. I believe that there are many more paths to God than one (i.e. buddhism, other religons that I won't mention because I'll misspell them). Its a matter of what works for that person.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia

I am a Muslim, a follower of Islam. However the Indonesian brand of Islam that I adhere to is very different with the ones practiced by Osama bin Laden, Khomeini and Ahmadinejad. In Indonesia we accepts cultural pluralism as something we should embrace, and we do not see non-Muslims as enemies.


----------



## Henderson

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> However the Indonesian brand of Islam that I adhere to is very different with the ones practiced by Osama bin Laden, Khomeini and Ahmadinejad. In Indonesia we accepts cultural pluralism as something we should embrace, and we do not see non-Muslims as enemies.


jujutsu_indonesia, As sala'amu alaikum. I find the uneducated generalization of Islam as anything other than peaceful to be disgusting at the least. The men mentioned above (IMO) are not true Muslims. I am sorry you felt you had to differentiate yourself from them. Anyone who would have lumped you together with the bin Laden's of the world is simply a fool. Peace to you!

Respects,

Frank


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I'm not sure what you would call me.

I started out Episcopalian and devoured everything I could read on biblical history. (was the top of my Sunday school class for a while, got an autographed prayer book from the bishop. He looked like Jonathan Winters. Was a cool guy)

The church thing got "old" when I hit the rebellious teens. I spent some time agnostic, then atheist, then found Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible. It made sense to me, though some parts were a little 'weird'.  What do you expect though from a guy who enjoyed the 'shock'.  I wandered a bit, was "Born Again" for a bit, but walked away from that due to there being too many "rules" being imposed by those I was associating with. (Long, ugly story. Lets just say conservative, nit picky and hypocritical were they ways). I went back to agnotstism, then started looking at various "new age" systems, primarily Wicca. I also began studying Taoism, and Egyptology. I've expanded into the Norse, Roman and Greek pantheons over time, dabbled a bit with Zeb Buddhism, and most recently begun exploring Hinduism. If I had to get specific, my house gods are Isis, Aphrodite, Anubis, Horus and Shiva.

The best way to sum up my system is, I believe there is something out there that we don't understand. A unifying and underlining force which we are all part of. It takes many forms, has many faces, and many paths for us to explore.  I don't believe any 1 path is more right than any other, just more right for the individual. I believe in balance, so karma is real, and reincarnation may be possible. I believe this universal force is accessible to those who work to hear it, and is the base root for what we call "ki/chi". I believe all people are created equal, but become unequal through action, inaction and choices.


----------



## Navarre

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The best way to sum up my system is, I believe there is something out there that we don't understand. A unifying and underlining force which we are all part of. It takes many forms, has many faces, and many paths for us to explore. I don't believe any 1 path is more right than any other, just more right for the individual. I believe in balance, so karma is real, and reincarnation may be possible. I believe this universal force is accessible to those who work to hear it, and is the base root for what we call "ki/chi". I believe all people are created equal, but become unequal through action, inaction and choices.


 
That's very well said, Bob. This sums me up fairly well.


----------



## DeLamar.J

Have any of you put a real effort into learning what Anton LaVeys philosophy is all about? If so, what do you like/dislike about it.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Have any of you put a real effort into learning what Anton LaVeys philosophy is all about? If so, what do you like/dislike about it.


Some. It's been a while, so much of what I read is hazy. I liked the focus on personal responsibility and respect for life, but I disliked the "carnyness" that seemed to surround it. Some of his other works struck me as "out there". Again, hazy memories from over 15 years ago. Been meaning to reread a bit, but seem to never have enough time in the day.


----------



## Blotan Hunka

Roman Catholic.

There is some Native American blood in my family so some cousins follow the old way.


----------



## mantis

speaking of religions
dont you guys think secularism became a religion
i feel that its followers are becoming very extreme tho...
maybe i shouldnt be saying this, coz we're not supposed to initiate debates here!
just something i had to say


----------



## heretic888

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Have any of you put a real effort into learning what Anton LaVeys philosophy is all about?


 
Yes. 



			
				DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> If so, what do you like/dislike about it.


 
Outside of his criticism of evangelical religion, I dislike pretty much everything expounded in the Church of Satan.

The use of Jungian psychology is extremely shallow and unprofessional, the emphasis on egocentrism and self-importance is regressive and narcissistic, the use of "black magic" promotes manipulation of other human beings, there is a lack of any sense of development or ultimate purpose beyond the fulfillment of temporary desires, and the entire image itself is absolutely hokey.

When it comes to pure philosophy, you're much better off going with some of the well-established giants in the field: Kant, Fichte, Hegel, Nietzche, Foucault, Derrida, Wittgenstein, Habermas, and so on. What LaVey propounded is just juvenile.

Laterz.


----------



## heretic888

mantis said:
			
		

> speaking of religions
> dont you guys think secularism became a religion
> i feel that its followers are becoming very extreme tho...
> maybe i shouldnt be saying this, coz we're not supposed to initiate debates here!
> just something i had to say


 
Honestly, it depends on how you define "religion".

There is a concerted effort on the parts of both traditional religious authorities and secular humanists to define religion on the basis of its _content_, not its actual _substance_. In this way, an illusory dichotomy between the two groups is maintained to highlight their sense of individuality.

When you start analyzing them on the basis of substance, then it becomes glaringly obvious an extremely similar pattern is emerging.

Laterz.


----------



## DeLamar.J

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Outside of his criticism of evangelical religion, I dislike pretty much everything expounded in the Church of Satan.
> 
> The use of Jungian psychology is extremely shallow and unprofessional, the emphasis on egocentrism and self-importance is regressive and narcissistic, the use of "black magic" promotes manipulation of other human beings, there is a lack of any sense of development or ultimate purpose beyond the fulfillment of temporary desires, and the entire image itself is absolutely hokey.
> 
> When it comes to pure philosophy, you're much better off going with some of the well-established giants in the field: Kant, Fichte, Hegel, Nietzche, Foucault, Derrida, Wittgenstein, Habermas, and so on. What LaVey propounded is just juvenile.
> 
> Laterz.


Thank you for giving your honest opinion, I dont agree with it, but I respect it.


----------



## Kane

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The best way to sum up my system is, I believe there is something out there that we don't understand. A unifying and underlining force which we are all part of. It takes many forms, has many faces, and many paths for us to explore. I don't believe any 1 path is more right than any other, just more right for the individual. I believe in balance, so karma is real, and reincarnation may be possible. I believe this universal force is accessible to those who work to hear it, and is the base root for what we call "ki/chi". I believe all people are created equal, but become unequal through action, inaction and choices.



  I agree with you but how do you think we can reach God? I say through Rajah Yoga (Meditation) and learning science. Nature is a part of God and maybe the only part of God we can truly know. We might be able to understand the God beyond through special mind exercises such as meditation but that is it. Everything else is more based in blind faith........well that is if someone is to believe their way is the only way. But of course truly knowing God is impossible, as we would have to be God to do so. Karma seems to be a notion accepted by most modern freethinkers, which isn't surprising .

By the way when you study Hinduism, be sure to not become too attached to the mythology for long . The myths are fun but there is a philosophical system that as more beautiful than all explanations for the origins of our world. The philosophical side of Hinduism is often not seen by many people .


----------



## heretic888

Kane said:
			
		

> But of course truly knowing God is impossible, as we would have to be God to do so.


 
The fundamental tragedy of _samsara_: we assume a duality exists in the first place.



			
				Kane said:
			
		

> By the way when you study Hinduism, be sure to not become too attached to the mythology for long . The myths are fun but there is a philosophical system that as more beautiful than all explanations for the origins of our world. The philosophical side of Hinduism is often not seen by many people .


 
The term you're looking for is _Vedanta_.

Laterz.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia

Henderson said:
			
		

> jujutsu_indonesia, As sala'amu alaikum. I find the uneducated generalization of Islam as anything other than peaceful to be disgusting at the least. The men mentioned above (IMO) are not true Muslims. I am sorry you felt you had to differentiate yourself from them. Anyone who would have lumped you together with the bin Laden's of the world is simply a fool. Peace to you!
> 
> Respects,
> 
> Frank


 
Wa alaykum salaam Frank. Thank you for your kind words about Islam. I believe that right now Allah is testing us, the Muslims. He wants to test our patience and our ability to show non-believers that being a Muslim means being a peaceful person. 

All this talk about Islam hates the West mostly came from Muslim persons who uses the Islam religion as political tools to gain power. Us peaceful Muslims does not get much media exposure so we understand why westerners often regards Islam as a religion of hatred.

If you have time, please visit http://islamlib.com and you will see that many Muslims actually share my views.

Thank you again for the nice words. wa salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh 

it means: may Peace be upon you, may Allah gave you rahmah (Allah's love) and barakah (blessings).


----------



## Darksoul

-Been awhile since I've read up on responses here, at least to this thread. Forgot I even posted. Have to say I haven't really changed much spiritually, or at least in regards to "religion" since that post. I guess to me, religion was always the practice of faith, not the actual faith. Hard to put into words. Two quick comments.

1. After going to a goth club for over 7 years, I've only met one satanist. And she's a rather nice person. Just wanted to point out another common stereotype. Black is just such a comfortable color to wear. Love it!!! Which leads me to the next.

2. True Islam is something we hear about rarely, especially with the war and terrorism. It never made any sense that a "faith" group (as opposed to religious) would believe in something silly like kill an American, get into Heaven. And thats not the case at all. Yeah, people, ie extremists/fundamentalists take something good and carry it too far in the wrong direction. Always promising they know whats best for you.

-I haven't had a chance to read up on any of the paths lately, too much going on in life. Too busy trying to slow it down, haha! Been have been doing a lot thinking. I do believe that a person should be physically fit, to support a calm and clear mind, to support spiritual growth. Its all connected to me. But, once again, what path? Do I need a path?

-Some paths seem geared to one goal, say going to the light, or the sun, if you want to get space-agey. Other paths seem content to stay here on planet Earth. And she is a beautiful planet; can't believe we trash her so much. But none of those paths ever appealed to me, especially as of late. I think there is a group of free spirited people out there who come from somewhere else. It doesn't feel like home here, at least not to me. Perhaps home is among the stars. I'll keep looking.

-But while I'm spending time here, I shall accept those who believe in the things I do, and those that do not. I shall protect those who are in need, and defend against those who disturb the peace. To a lot of people out there, I just want to scream at them that life is more than an image. Be more than an image. There is something more out there, even if we don't know what it is.

A---)


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia

Darksoul
2. True Islam is something we hear about rarely said:
			
		

> That's very true Mr. Darksoul. Those extremists are interpreting our Muslim Holy Book with bad intentions, thus producing very evil interpretation. Nowhere does in the Quran you will find any command to kill Americans. The Quran says that we should all be doing good and Allah himself will be our judge. No matter who we are, whether we are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Sabians or any other religions, if we do good deeds Allah will not make us sad. If you have a Yusuf Ali edition of Quran commentaries, please have a look at chapter 2:62 of the Quran. Bin Laden will never quote those, I am sure!


----------



## rziriak

I'm a one God, Apostolic, tongue talkin, born again, Jesus name baptized child of God.


----------



## mantis

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> That's very true Mr. Darksoul. Those extremists are interpreting our Muslim Holy Book with bad intentions, thus producing very evil interpretation. Nowhere does in the Quran you will find any command to kill Americans. The Quran says that we should all be doing good and Allah himself will be our judge. No matter who we are, whether we are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Sabians or any other religions, if we do good deeds Allah will not make us sad. If you have a Yusuf Ali edition of Quran commentaries, please have a look at chapter 2:62 of the Quran. Bin Laden will never quote those, I am sure!


oh come on
muslims should stop denying the verses that talk about war, attack, and self-defense
if you change your mentality and defend or explain why those verses are there instead of denying their existence i think it would be a lot better!
also, youre saying "No matter who we are, whether we are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Sabians or any other religions, if we do good deeds Allah will not make us sad" that totally doesnt make sense. if this were true, why is there islam, and why's there hell and heaven?!!
this verse that you're quotin i have read before, and it DOES set a condition for this. the condition is believing in the ONE God, and not associating people/idols with Him, right?!
sad when i realize i know about islam more than muslims!


----------



## heretic888

I would suggest looking into Sufism, mantis.

Laterz.


----------



## mantis

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I would suggest looking into Sufism, mantis.
> 
> Laterz.


i am not talking about sufism
im talking about sunnie(sp!?) muslims which make the majority of muslims around the world.


----------



## heretic888

mantis said:
			
		

> i am not talking about sufism
> im talking about sunnie(sp!?) muslims which make the majority of muslims around the world.


 
So, an Appeal To Common Practice, then??


----------



## mantis

heretic888 said:
			
		

> So, an Appeal To Common Practice, then??


is that a question?
i dont get it
sorry


----------



## heretic888

mantis said:
			
		

> is that a question?
> i dont get it
> sorry


 
It's a logical fallacy whereby one assumes that a proposition is true solely because it is popular or commonly practiced.

Laterz.


----------



## mantis

heretic888 said:
			
		

> It's a logical fallacy whereby one assumes that a proposition is true solely because it is popular or commonly practiced.
> 
> Laterz.


oh so ur saying just coz sunni islam is the common one that doesnt make it the right thing?
im not saying it is, what i am saying sunni islam is islam, sufism is not islam. sufism is sufism. simple!
i wanted to discuss islam, not sufism. coz it seems that people when they attack islam they are attacking sunni islam, the common islam and they're not attacking sufism. i have no interest in sufism whatsoever by the way!


----------



## heretic888

mantis said:
			
		

> oh so ur saying just coz sunni islam is the common one that doesnt make it the right thing?
> im not saying it is, what i am saying sunni islam is islam, sufism is not islam. sufism is sufism. simple!
> i wanted to discuss islam, not sufism. coz it seems that people when they attack islam they are attacking sunni islam, the common islam and they're not attacking sufism. i have no interest in sufism whatsoever by the way!


 
The very fact that you are claiming Sufism is not Islam demonstrates you don't know what you're talking about. I would suggest looking into the influence that many notable Sufi mystics, such as Rumi, al Hallaj, and Ibn 'al Arabi have had on the history of Islam. Your Strawman Argument just doesn't hold out.

And, yes, arguing that because a given form of Islam is the most commonly practiced that it is the "real" or "true" Islam is indeed a fallacious Appeal To Common Practice.

Laterz.


----------



## mantis

heretic888 said:
			
		

> The very fact that you are claiming Sufism is not Islam demonstrates you don't know what you're talking about. I would suggest looking into the influence that many notable Sufi mystics, such as Rumi, al Hallaj, and Ibn 'al Arabi have had on the history of Islam. Your Strawman Argument just doesn't hold out.
> 
> And, yes, arguing that because a given form of Islam is the most commonly practiced that it is the "real" or "true" Islam is indeed a fallacious Appeal To Common Practice.
> 
> Laterz.


actually i dont understand
let us see then. what defines islam? 
let's go from there to prove to you that sufism is OUT of islam!
AND sufism is more a philosophy than a religion whereas islam is a "way of life" based on a certain belief
btw, islam is what the prophet Muhammad brought including the Quran and the "Sunnah" and he strictly instructed that any changes made after are OUT of islam. so what i want to ask about is the REAL Islam Muhammad brought to the human race. Not additions brought by people who abused people's ignorance (read more on the history of Ibn Arabi)
btw, i visited Ibn Arabi's shrine in the city of damascus, syria about 10 years ago, and I have seen how the practices he's left are not validated against the Islamic rules and what's known as "sharia".
again, i do not have any interest in discussion sufism, i've read enough about it. what i want is talking to the sunni muslims about the issues mentioned before
if you want please go ahead and start a new thread about sufism vs. islam or something like that.
thanks and good talking (kinda) to you!


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia

mantis said:
			
		

> oh come on
> muslims should stop denying the verses that talk about war, attack, and self-defense
> if you change your mentality and defend or explain why those verses are there instead of denying their existence i think it would be a lot better!


 
We are not denying that those verses existed. Those were revealed by Allah when Muhammad were facing the idolaters from his own home town of Makkah, and they waged war against him. So he had to defend himself. At least, that's what I know. I wasn't there personally, so I just have to rely on the History of the Prophet, written by Ibn Ishaq.



> also, youre saying "No matter who we are, whether we are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Sabians or any other religions, if we do good deeds Allah will not make us sad" that totally doesnt make sense. if this were true, why is there islam, and why's there hell and heaven?!!
> this verse that you're quotin i have read before, and it DOES set a condition for this. the condition is believing in the ONE God, and not associating people/idols with Him, right?!


 
Well, according to Prof. Nurcholish Madjid, the condition is simply to not wage wars against Muslims. 

verse 2:256 said that there are no compulsion in religion, so as long as non-Muslims doesn't wage wars against Muslims, then Muslims should not wage wars against them.

Off course, opinions may vary. I am from the liberal Muslims camp, www.islamlib.com

People like Ahmadinejad and Bin Laden have very different interpretations though, and their interpretations is more "Famous" than us, unfortunately. 

That's why I said in my previous posting, that I perfectly understand if westerners regards Islam as a religion of war and hate. That's because so many Muslims committed actions which shows so much hatred and so much emphasis in war. I don't condone the actions of those so-called Muslims, and that's why people from the liberal Muslims camp are not welcome in certain Muslim circles


----------



## dstuart

This seems like a good place for my first post.  

As for me, Born-again Christian.

I have to applaud the moderators of this site. 

This kind of topic typically gets out of hand. :mp5: 

Great Job!!!


----------



## Lisa

dstuart said:
			
		

> This seems like a good place for my first post.
> 
> As for me, Born-again Christian.
> 
> I have to applaud the moderators of this site.
> 
> This kind of topic typically gets out of hand. :mp5:
> 
> Great Job!!!



Welcome to MT, dstuart.  Please feel free to go to the Meet & Greet section and introduce yourself.  Happy Posting :wavey:


----------



## mantis

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> We are not denying that those verses existed. Those were revealed by Allah when Muhammad were facing the idolaters from his own home town of Makkah, and they waged war against him. So he had to defend himself. At least, that's what I know. I wasn't there personally, so I just have to rely on the History of the Prophet, written by Ibn Ishaq.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, according to Prof. Nurcholish Madjid, the condition is simply to not wage wars against Muslims.
> 
> verse 2:256 said that there are no compulsion in religion, so as long as non-Muslims doesn't wage wars against Muslims, then Muslims should not wage wars against them.
> 
> Off course, opinions may vary. I am from the liberal Muslims camp, www.islamlib.com
> 
> People like Ahmadinejad and Bin Laden have very different interpretations though, and their interpretations is more "Famous" than us, unfortunately.
> 
> That's why I said in my previous posting, that I perfectly understand if westerners regards Islam as a religion of war and hate. That's because so many Muslims committed actions which shows so much hatred and so much emphasis in war. I don't condone the actions of those so-called Muslims, and that's why people from the liberal Muslims camp are not welcome in certain Muslim circles


hello
sorry. i totally forgot i got involved in a discussion here!
anyway, im not denying the existence of those verses. but when you quote please put in the ENTIRE verse. sometimes in the Quran I noticed you do need to quote the verse before and after sometimes!
i am not "western", and I do not assume Islam is about hate and war, but it's not a good idea to deny those either. yes, there are a lot of war verses, and all i am saying is explain them rather than deny them.
could you identify what "liberal" muslim means?
thanks


----------



## Kane

Both Islam and Christianity have violent verses (yes Christianity too). There are a few verses in the Old Testament that tell that Christians must put homosexuals, adulterers, and even Non-Christians to death. Luckily there are no *official* Christian, otherwise it would be how it was in the middle ages or during puritan times at the most.

This is why Arabia and Iran have a lot more executions for homosexuals, adulterers, ect. Arabia, Iran, and a few other nations are officially muslim and follow books such as the Shariah without question. Muslim Jihad is similar Christian Crusade, and may not happen as often as it used too.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

The only problem with Faith is when *SPECIFIC *groups and individuals use it as a *WEAPON *to mistreat, oppress or kill "non-believers". Other than that, I agree with the late historian Will Durant that faith is necessary for a health civilization.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia

mantis said:
			
		

> hello
> could you identify what "liberal" muslim means?
> thanks


 
Hello,

everything you need to know is here

http://islamlib.com/en/aboutus.php

let me quote our vision and mission



> About Liberal Islam Network
> 
> *1. What's Liberal Islam?*
> 
> Liberal Islam (LI) is a new interpretation form of the Islam religion with the insights:
> 
> a. _The openness of ijtihad's gates in the entire aspects._
> 
> 
> LI believes that _ijtihad_ (the rational thinking of Islamic texts) is the main tenet that enables Islam to hold out through any seasons. Any locking of _ijtihad_ gates, partially or even entirely, is a threat upon Islam itself. Since in this way, Islam would be rotten. LI believes that _ijtihad_ could be held almost in every aspect, within _ilahiyyat_ (theology), _ubudiyyat_ (ritual), or (especially) _muamalat_ (social interaction). _ijtihad_'s space in _ubudiyyat_ is exactly slighter than the other two aspects.
> 
> b. _Emphasize on the ethical- religious spirit, not the literal meaning of the text._
> 
> _Ijtihad_ that developed by LI is an endeavor of Islam's interpretation based on the ethical-religious spirit of the Qur'an and the Sunnah, not merely interpreting Islam based on the literal meaning of the text. The literal kind of interpretation would only "kill" Islam. Only by using the ethical-religious spirit based interpretation, Islam would live and grow creatively associated to the universal "humanistic civilization".
> 
> c. _The relative, open, and plural truth._
> 
> LI based on the notion vis-à-vis "truth" (in religious interpretation) as a _relative_ thing, since an interpretation is "human activity " which is shackled in a certain context; _open_, since each form of interpretation contain an erroneous possibility, instead of a correct one; _plural_, since each religious interpretation, in one and other way, is a reflection of any interpreter's need in an incessantly changes of time and places.
> 
> d. _Stand behind the minorities and the oppressed._
> 
> LI stands behind Islamic interpretations that withstand on minorities, oppressed, and marginalized. Every social-political structure that preserves injustice practices upon the minorities is against the spirit of Islam. In this context, minority should be understood in the wider meaning, including the religious minority, ethnic, race, culture, politic, economic, sexual orientation, etc. Gender equality is a problem that we concern of, since our social structure is still based on the patriarchal idea which against the justice idea in Islam. We consider any religious interpretations that do not concern on the gender equality is inappropriate with the justice principle of Islam.
> 
> e. _Freedom of belief and faith._
> 
> LI considers that the matter of "being religious" or "being not religious" is a personal rights that should be protected. LI does not abide any prosecution on the base of an opinion or belief.
> 
> f. _The separation of ukhrawi (heavenly) vis-à-vis duniawi (worldly) authority, and the religious vis-à-vis political authority._
> 
> LI believes in the very nature of separation between religious power and political one. LI does not withstand any notion regarding the religious state whereas the authority of _ulama_ (religious leader) or _kiai_ (Javanese-Indonesian term of religious leader) is observed as the highest authorities that could not be wrong. The healthy form of state for the religious and political growth is a state where both authorities are separated. Religion is an inspirational source that could influence public policies, but religion is not the one and the only source that have transcendental privilege that could not be denied to determine all public policies form. Finally, religion works on private and individual spaces. Public affairs should be held trough "collective _ijtihad_" process, where everyone can debate, where every truth is determined inductively through the fit and proper test of vision.
> 
> *2. Why named as Liberal Islam?*
> 
> The name of "Liberal Islam" illustrate our fundamental principles; Islam which emphasizes on "private liberties" (according to Mu'tazilah's doctrine regarding "human liberties"), and "liberation" of socio-political structure from the unhealthy and oppressing domination. The "liberal" adjective has two meanings: "liberty" (being liberal) and "liberating". Please note that we do not believe in Islam as such---Islam without any adjective as some people argued. Islam is impossible without adjective, in fact Islam have been interpreted in so many different ways in accordance to the interpreter's need. We choose a genre of interpretation, and by this way, we selected an adjective for Islam, it is "liberal".
> 
> 
> *3. What is this Network's major mission?*
> 
> Our missions are:
> 1. Develop the liberal Islamic interpretations that are appropriate to our principles, and disseminate it to as many people as possible.
> 2. Attempt to create dialogue rooms that are open and free from any pressures of conservatism. Only by the availability of open rooms for dialogues, the thought and Islamic action improvement could be well preserved.
> 3. Endeavor the formation of a fair and humanely social and political structure. We believe that the democratic system is a system that "in the very now" can accomplish those needs. In capitalism, we believe that there are some policies could be supported, and criticize some of its aspects as well.


 
BTW, for the record, I have no intention to convert anybody to Liberal Islam 

Please direct further questions about Liberal Islam to the website


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## tradrockrat

> "Is there a God?  Who knows.  Is there an Angy unicorn on the dark side of the moon?"
> 
> Edward Abbey



I am (I'm not making this up) a Reverend Minister in the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic.  We don't know, and we don't care.


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## KenpoEMT

Asatru or Nordisk sed.
http://www.asatru.org/


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## Carol

Sikh, which happens to be a faith with a deep martial tradition.


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## bcbernam777

Kane said:
			
		

> Non-Christians to death.


 
?? must have missed that verse


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## celtic_crippler

Agnostic Idealist. 

No offense, but prior to WWII the Christian Reformation was the bloodiest time ever in European history. That is a historical fact so feel free to investigate it for your self. 

Faith is blind, however ideas have vision. 

I believe it is the height of human arrogance to assign human traits to a supreme being. If you haven't seen it, I would recommend renting and watching a film called "What the Bleep do We Know?" Experts in this film giving commentary include Quantum Physicist and Theologist. I'll give you forewarning though, it'll make your head hurt. LOL.


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## evenflow1121

Well I guess I am a practicing atheist. No, I am agnostic as far as believing that some being, force, ect created all of this, but as far as an after life goes, I dont believe in one.

Why? Well, I was born into a Catholic home, all my siblings and my parents are Catholics, and I respect their views, and frankly I hope they are right.  However, man since the beginning of time has been praying to supernatural forces to get things done, and while I can accept the fact that the screw ups in society are as a result of our own stupidity, I can not conceive how some being, force, ect. would be so arrogant as to give some of his most irresponsible creations the gift of freewill knowing how badly they would screw up (not just hurt themselves, but others around them), just to prove a point to a lesser being (angel or whatever) that defied him, doesnt sound too much like perfection there.  Sounds like another Mt. Olympus story to me.  Sorry guys, my rant is done, but since you wanted to know what religion I practice, I just try to help people out as best I can.


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## Kacey

Reform Judaism - although not very observant.  I observe certain holidays, and Judaism has had a profound impact on my personal beliefs and philosophy, but has little impact on my day-to-day life.


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## bluemtn

I'm a born again Christian, to sum it up.


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## Wes Tasker

Buddhist (Theravada).  I'm also an ardent student of Ken Wilber and other transpersonal writers, as well as some of the Perennialists. 

-wes tasker


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## stone_dragone

I was raised in an Independent [not-so] Fundamental back-woods Bible-thumping bigotted Baptist church.  Despite that fact, I still love Jesus.  

Best description now?

Non-Demoninational Zen Christian.


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## bushidomartialarts

i believe the face of god is ever-present and shows itself to every person in its' own way.  i'm not certain i believe in god as a sentient, higher power or as a synergy of human potential or even an abstract representation of what we, as individuals and a species, are capable of.

still thinkin', still listening, still learning.


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## IcemanSK

I am a Christian. I'm a seminary graduate & I've worked in different capacities in a few churches. My wife & I are involved in what's being called the Emergent Church. It looks at how to "do Church" in the post-modern world we live in. Smaller group, rather than Mega-Churches, worship that pulls from many Christian traditions, & asks the question , "Its great that you believe in Jesus, but what does it compel you to do with what you believe?"


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## kamishinkan

"Judaic Christian" Actually I am a Pastor of a local Church. I use this terminology because I am a born again Christian but believe contrary to most Christians that we are to obey the Law of God as given to Moses.


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## qizmoduis

I do not practice any religion, nor do I hold any religious dogma.  Belief-wise, I'm an atheist.


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## SFC JeffJ

Athiest.  Even was one in a few different foxholes.


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## OnlyAnEgg

Modifying my earlier entry, I am born-again Christian/Pentecostal with a background in a wide variety of belief systems.

For a time I was even a Druid.  Well, Druid (Reformed).  We could pray at bushes.


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## Slihn

I believe that Jesus is the son of God,that he died on the cross and rose again,I have accepted him as my personal saviour.


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