# For CCW people



## Hudson69 (Dec 5, 2010)

What is your EDC when you are carrying?  If I am working it is a Glock 23, spare mag, a tactical folder (any one of many) and a small surefire.  When I am not working it is a Smith 3913 (single stack 9), Smith Model 36 (snub .38) or a Taurus 606 (.357 snub) with one or two reloads (for the wheel guns I carry two speed strips each), a tactical folder and a pocket light.


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## jks9199 (Dec 5, 2010)

Off duty, Glock 27.  On duty, concealed, I either carried a Glock 27 or Glock 22.  In uniform -- it's the 22.  I almost always have a knife and a multi-tool on me.  I always carry some form of restraint if I'm carrying a gun, so that if I end up drawing on someone, I'm not stuck holding them at gunpoint until the cavalry shows up...


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## KenpoTex (Dec 6, 2010)

*Always:*
-G19 or "19L"
-spare mag
-folding knife
-flashlight

*Usually* (in addition to above):
-either a fixed-blade or a Sap, depending on how I'm dressed.

*Sometimes:*
-BUG (j-frame)
-OC


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## Skpotamus (Dec 6, 2010)

Pretty much always a glock 34 or 21 with a spare mag and a waved delica.  Always have a surefire tucked away in a pocket as well as a steel kubaton.  

Occasionally a Ruger LCR in a pocket holster depending on how I'm dressed.


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## lklawson (Dec 6, 2010)

When and where I can:

I rotate between, depending on circumstances: 
Customized CZ52 (Hornady JSP's - mostly winter carry), spare mag
Kel Tec P11 (Hornady Critical Defense), spare mag
Kel Tec PF9 (Cor-Bon Pow'rBall), spare mag
Kel Tec P32 (hot FMJ)

Always:
Schrade SW7 "Switch-it," ColdSteel Voyager X2, Electro Lumens XM-2, stout Cane, and a generic utility knife (today it's an Okapi).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Blindside (Dec 6, 2010)

Glock 26
Emerson Commander
cell phone


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## Grenadier (Dec 6, 2010)

Where legal...

General weather (up to hot weather):

Glock 32, stoked with 13+1 Speer Gold Dot 125 grain hollowpoints, resting in a Desantis Mini Slide (OWB)
2 extra 13 round magazines
Spyderco Police

Ultra hot and humid weather:

Smith and Wesson 442, stoked with 130 grain Speer Gold Dot +P JHP designed for short barrels, tucked away in Desantis Nemesis pocket holster
Speedstrip with 5 more rounds
Spyderco Police


Freezing cold weather: 

Glock 17, stoked with 17+1 Winchester Ranger +P+ 127 grain JHP, nestled in the above Desantis mini slide.
2 extra 17 round magazines (same ammo)
Smith and Wesson 442 in a pocket holster
Spyderco Police


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## jks9199 (Dec 6, 2010)

Let me throw something out, whether you're a civilian or a cop.

You draw down on someone in a fully justified situation (for argument's sake, a guy approaches brandishing a machete).  They comply, and you do not end up shooting them.  What now?  Stand there, gun out, until the cops arrive?

I'm not suggesting carrying a full set of cuffs (though with what some of you are carrying, you wouldn't notice...)  But you can carry a piece of string long enough to tie 'em up and learn a handcuff knot.  Or... Tuff Ties.  At the very least -- have a plan.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 6, 2010)

jks, I can see the point about having some sort of restraints available.  I guess the issue I see is that, as you know, the process of restraining someone puts you in a vulnerable position (close proximity, weapon holstered, etc.).  
I could maybe see doing it if you had someone to cover you (or have someone else do it while you cover them), but I'm not crazy about the idea otherwise.

If I felt compelled to stick around, as opposed to leaving and calling the cops from a safe location, I'd probably keep the guy proned-out and at the very least, maintain a firing-grip on the gun in the holster (can still engage quickly, but can also let go of it and have my hands empty without losing control of the gun).

I understand the point about not wanting to stand there with a gun out for a long period of time (having the arriving officers possibly mistake you for the bad guy).  However, I don't know if the alternative, restraining them, is worth the risk.


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## jks9199 (Dec 6, 2010)

KenpoTex said:


> jks, I can see the point about having some sort of restraints available.  I guess the issue I see is that, as you know, the process of restraining someone puts you in a vulnerable position (close proximity, weapon holstered, etc.).
> I could maybe see doing it if you had someone to cover you (or have someone else do it while you cover them), but I'm not crazy about the idea otherwise.
> 
> If I felt compelled to stick around, as opposed to leaving and calling the cops from a safe location, I'd probably keep the guy proned-out and at the very least, maintain a firing-grip on the gun in the holster (can still engage quickly, but can also let go of it and have my hands empty without losing control of the gun).
> ...


Notice I didn't say "absolutely hook 'em."  I said have a plan...  otherwise, with no obvious threat remaining, you're in a position where it can look like you're brandishing a firearm to the first officers on scene...

The reality is that MOST civilian and even most off-duty cops that reach a situation where they pull a gun on someone stand a good chance of shooting.  But have a plan...


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## lklawson (Dec 6, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Let me throw something out, whether you're a civilian or a cop.
> 
> You draw down on someone in a fully justified situation (for argument's sake, a guy approaches brandishing a machete).  They comply, and you do not end up shooting them.  What now?  Stand there, gun out, until the cops arrive?


Evac the area and call the cops.  File a report.

You're a civvie, not a LEO.  If he has stood-down then you are no longer under threat. GTFO and file a report to establish justification and paper trail.  Further, removing yourself from the area removes you from any potential reinvigorated attack and helps to establish you as the victim because you exercised your "Duty to Retreat."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Skpotamus (Dec 7, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Let me throw something out, whether you're a civilian or a cop.
> 
> You draw down on someone in a fully justified situation (for argument's sake, a guy approaches brandishing a machete).  They comply, and you do not end up shooting them.  What now?  Stand there, gun out, until the cops arrive?
> 
> I'm not suggesting carrying a full set of cuffs (though with what some of you are carrying, you wouldn't notice...)  But you can carry a piece of string long enough to tie 'em up and learn a handcuff knot.  Or... Tuff Ties.  At the very least -- have a plan.




Honestly, as a private citizen, my gun isn't coming out unless I need to shoot.  If someone is threatening me with a machete, knife, gun, whatever, if they're enough of a threat to warrant my gun coming out of it's holster, it's enough of a threat to warrant me shooting.  Anything less and the guns not coming out.  Me firing is going to be part of my drawstroke.  

For the sake of argument, if the BG sees me starting my draw stroke while moving off the X and immediately drops the machete/knife/weapon, whatever before I clear my holster, I'm getting the hell out of dodge while calling the police.  Get your story into the police first.  Let the people that are trained and with backup detain the BG.


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## DRANKIN (Dec 23, 2010)

Skpotamus said:


> Honestly, as a private citizen, my gun isn't coming out unless I need to shoot. If someone is threatening me with a machete, knife, gun, whatever, if they're enough of a threat to warrant my gun coming out of it's holster, it's enough of a threat to warrant me shooting. Anything less and the guns not coming out. Me firing is going to be part of my drawstroke.
> 
> For the sake of argument, if the BG sees me starting my draw stroke while moving off the X and immediately drops the machete/knife/weapon, whatever before I clear my holster, I'm getting the hell out of dodge while calling the police. Get your story into the police first. Let the people that are trained and with backup detain the BG.


 

Good chance is that as soon as you do draw, badguy with a blade is going to retreat somehow. You won't need to shoot him. Comes down to, YES you are justified in discharging your weapon, but you don't really have to. Not shooting him will give yourself less of a problem in the long run. Besides, I understand that in such a case your weapon can be confiscated (for bureaucratic while) until everything is sorted out. Just sayin.


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## Archangel M (Dec 23, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Let me throw something out, whether you're a civilian or a cop.
> 
> You draw down on someone in a fully justified situation (for argument's sake, a guy approaches brandishing a machete). They comply, and you do not end up shooting them. What now? Stand there, gun out, until the cops arrive?
> 
> I'm not suggesting carrying a full set of cuffs (though with what some of you are carrying, you wouldn't notice...) But you can carry a piece of string long enough to tie 'em up and learn a handcuff knot. Or... Tuff Ties. At the very least -- have a plan.


 

I wont cuff a guy I have at gunpoint alone while Im on duty. I really don't suggest it for non-le/off duty. Hold em at gunpoint till someone else arrives or beat feet.

BTW: Right now...
G22
Extra Mag in Fobus holder
Spyderco knife
Cell Phone


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## Skpotamus (Dec 24, 2010)

DRANKIN said:


> Good chance is that as soon as you do draw, badguy with a blade is going to retreat somehow. You won't need to shoot him. Comes down to, YES you are justified in discharging your weapon, but you don't really have to. Not shooting him will give yourself less of a problem in the long run. Besides, I understand that in such a case your weapon can be confiscated (for bureaucratic while) until everything is sorted out. Just sayin.




You're assuming the bad guy doesn't really want to hurt you, that the man or woman threatening you with deadly harm is somehow the hooker with a heart of gold and won't really go through with the violence they promise unless you comply with their demands.  

I'm going to assume that if someone brandishes a weapon and THREATENS my life or the life of my family with it that they mean it.  If my gun comes out of the holster again, it's going to fire once it's on target if the threat is still there, if they have backed away and dropped the knife, then there is no threat, if they're still holding the knife, the threat is still there regardless of their motion/movement and I'm emptying my magazine as quickly as I can.  

The old Tueller drill showed that the average person could cover a distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds (the average draw time for the officers Sgt Tueller was working with with a belt holster with no concealment or pressure).  Inside of that distance, a knife is deadly and faster than my gun.  21 feet is a LOT farther away than someone will be threatening you with a knife from.  Someone inside of that distance, threatening me with a knife is a lethal threat and should be treated as such IMO.  Not as a possible threat that may or may not run away when the gun is shown to them.   Me drawing and waiting for them to react is a great way to get stabbed.  Work it out with some airsoft and some training blades at your dojo sometime.  If you are reactive to a knife person, you get the blade.  

Now, if you're worried about the legal consequences of drawing your firearm in a defensive situation, well, let's examine that.  It's kind of a push, if you draw and don't fire, you can be charged, if you draw and do fire, you can also be charged.  It's dependent on the circumstances and a lot of times, how you react after the incident and your choice of words to the police. In my state, drawing and presenting or showing a firearm constitutes a deadly force situation.  Whether I shoot or not, me drawing my firearm is the same level of force to the law.  If I drew it and didn't use it, it could be argued that I didn't need to do so and I was the escalator of violence.  I've seen that happen before.  The BG argued that he was conversing with the GG and the GG freaked out, drew a gun and threatened him at which point, the BG drew his knife.  His word against the BG's, prosecutor looked at it as an argument that got out of hand, and charged both people with assault.  My buddy (the GG), pleaded it down to a misdemeanor and got some community service, but it could've been much worse for him.  His lawyer told him that had he shot the guy, it would've been a pretty clear cut self defense case.  

My one instance of dealing with a threatening person with a knife was a sobering one.  I drew my 1911 and presented it, expecting the guy to back down.  His response instead was "do you think you're fast enough to shoot me before I gut you?"  and then charge me from about 8 feet away.  Had his buddy not tackled him, I'd have gotten a hunting knife in my guts before I couldn't put a round into him.


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## Archangel M (Dec 24, 2010)

The Tueller Drill, while a useful tool, is a set piece exercise that has a tendency to be overblown. The major factor of the Tueller Drill is INTENT. The knifer knows he is going to attack and when. The other person stands there...holstered...and waits. It never takes into consideration obstacles between opponents, it never considers taking the initiative and drawing, giving commands and or preempting your opponent. I have always wanted to be asked to participate in a "Tueller Drill" and be told "You stand here..he has a knife and when he moves you react"...I'd ask "he has a knife?" and when told yes draw down...place an obstacle between us and give commands. 

I know that I am ignoring the intent of the drill here..the intent being to simply make you aware of the "reaction gap" and the realities of edged weapons, but the Tueller Drill is ultimately an example of "physics" more than it is an example of "combative truth".


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## Archangel M (Dec 24, 2010)

Skpotamus said:


> my one instance of dealing with a threatening person with a knife was a sobering one.  *I drew my 1911 and presented it, expecting the guy to back down*.



You example is one of misguided tactics vs a "Tueller Situation". A guy threatening me with a knife gets shot...not "presented to" to make him back down. Presenting and waiting for him to move just gives HIM the initiative.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 24, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> The Tueller Drill, while a useful tool, is a set piece exercise that has a tendency to be overblown. The major factor of the Tueller Drill is INTENT. The knifer knows he is going to attack and when. The other person stands there...holstered...and waits. It never takes into consideration obstacles between opponents, it never considers taking the initiative and drawing, giving commands and or preempting your opponent. I have always wanted to be asked to participate in a "Tueller Drill" and be told "You stand here..he has a knife and when he moves you react"...I'd ask "he has a knife?" and when told yes draw down...place an obstacle between us and give commands.
> 
> I know that I am ignoring the intent of the drill here..the intent being to simply make you aware of the "reaction gap" and the realities of edged weapons, but the Tueller Drill is ultimately an example of "physics" more than it is an example of "combative truth".


 
That's exactly right, the intent is to create awareness of reactionary gap.......if we're talking combative truth, than any knifer worth half his salt wouldn't display a knife until he's in stabbing distance, and then only for the moment it takes to bring it to bear.

The fact that we deal with folks at arms length in our society as it is pushes that issue home even further.

The real lesson of the Tueller Drill is to dispel the notion that a firearm can solve every problem, including someone suddenly attacking us with a knife.  If we're caught inside that reactionary gap, other counter-measures may have to be employed simply to access the firearm.


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## Skpotamus (Dec 25, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> The Tueller Drill, while a useful tool, is a set piece exercise that has a tendency to be overblown. The major factor of the Tueller Drill is INTENT. The knifer knows he is going to attack and when. The other person stands there...holstered...and waits. It never takes into consideration obstacles between opponents, it never considers taking the initiative and drawing, giving commands and or preempting your opponent. I have always wanted to be asked to participate in a "Tueller Drill" and be told "You stand here..he has a knife and when he moves you react"...I'd ask "he has a knife?" and when told yes draw down...place an obstacle between us and give commands.
> 
> I know that I am ignoring the intent of the drill here..the intent being to simply make you aware of the "reaction gap" and the realities of edged weapons, but the Tueller Drill is ultimately an example of "physics" more than it is an example of "combative truth".



The version we recreated for the sheriffs dept (after it being used at the LEO academy) involved the knife waiting for the person to try to start to draw the gun, then coming forward to attack, doing the back to back version with a lawn dart yielded similar results as the original Tueller Drill.  Starting with the gun weilder being reactive almost always resulted in the gun not getting out of the holster at all.  

The point I was trying to make by bringing up this easily re creatable drill was that drawing a firearm against a person with a knife and expecting them to drop the knife or not attack can get you stabbed because if they decide to attack you they'll get to you before you could deploy your firearm.  



Archangel M said:


> You example is one of misguided tactics vs a "Tueller Situation". A guy threatening me with a knife gets shot...not "presented to" to make him back down. Presenting and waiting for him to move just gives HIM the initiative.


Which is why I brought up this experience from 1999.  To point out to another poster that drawing and firing is the better option when dealing with a knife wielding attacker as waiting or hoping they'll back off or drop the knife isn't a given and they're too close to be reactionary.


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## RoninGirl82 (Dec 29, 2010)

In response to the original question posed:

My everyday carry is a Ruger SP-101, a folding fighter knife, a SAK, and a $5 whittler. That's just what's on my person. If its cold out and I have to wear multiple layers, the handgun changes to a CZ-75 in .40 s&w with an extra mag in my pocket. 

Of course, I never go anywhere without my 24hr bag, so I have the basics and backups in that: 2 speedloaders for the Ruger, box of extra hollowpoints, a mini-mag flashlight, poncho, FAK, CB radio, extra batteries for everything, basic toiletries, change of clothes, snacks, deck of cards, pens and notepad, and a good thick book. If I need the netbook during the day, it goes in the bag as well.


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