# what would an instructor/teacher and student do if,..,.,



## CiNcO dOsE (Feb 18, 2004)

hello peeps, ive got two situations here, one for the instructor and later for the student.  (an event that ive recently witnessed).


for the instructor:
1) after class, a student of 2 years jokingly said "i havent even paid yet" (referring to the fee for the class/training), and a couple of students heard and laughed about it, would you tell the student that if he/she doesnt bring the money next time, he/she doesnt need to go to future classes, basically saying, no money no training and that he meant it?!  (btw, the instructor knew that the student hadnt paid and he was all okay about it, until i guess, he felt embarrased when others heard and laughed at the no pay joke.  the instructor took it as a sign of disrespect eventhough the student didnt mean any intention of disrespect).


for the student:
2) after the above instructor told you that "if you dont bring the money next time, then you dont need to go to future classes" and gave you some lecture and some b*tching about  how you can spend money on other things (necessity spendings inlcuded) but cant pay him and when you try to talk to him he jsut simply gets rid of you by saying he is busy, and walking away, or closing the door on you, would you still want to go to his class and learn under him?!  (the instructor knows that the student didnt have any money but the instructor didnt know why the student didnt have any money).


i would like to hear others opinions about this.


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## bdparsons (Feb 18, 2004)

Sorry, I'm totally on the instructor's side here. The student did show disrespect in two ways: 1) By not approaching the instructor with an explanation for not paying what he/she committed to and 2) making it a topic of discussioin with other students, whether jokingly or not. When it comes to paying for lessons, you've made an agreement for certain services. This situation to me actually demonstrates the class of the instructor in that he was not reminding the student of his obligation, he was patiently waiting for the person to come to him. The student's actions can clearly lead other students to believe they don't have to pay either. The student stepped in it and should write a written apology, enclose the amount owed and give it to the instructor personally. If they can't pay, they should inform the instructor that they will no longer attend class until they can pay. Then let the instructor decide what to do from there.

Respects,
Bill Parsons


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## loki09789 (Feb 18, 2004)

Disrespect on both parts, but the student is the real problem.

"Punish in private, praise in public" is a general idea that I try to work from.

The actions are already done, but if the instructor had separated the student from the area so that they could talk more privately, it would have seemed more professional and respectful and been a better example of behavior on the instructor's part.

It is also not the instructor's job to lecture the student about money management.  It is the instructors job to decide how to deal with the payment issue and the character of the class that he is teaching in.

Simply put, the student pays based on a communicated agreement between him and the instructor (1/2 now the rest later, but the next payment in the schedule has to be in full... all now or go, or just get out until you pay...).  

As far as the disrespect by the way the student made it public and the other student's reactions, the instructors character/grace/dignity will be more humbling and a positive lesson that any 'action' because these types of students will not see it as a lesson.  It will seem to be 'getting back at them.'  They need grow up.

Paul M


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## MJS (Feb 18, 2004)

CiNcO dOsE said:
			
		

> hello peeps, ive got two situations here, one for the instructor and later for the student.  (an event that ive recently witnessed).
> 
> 
> for the instructor:
> ...



Ok- let me see if I got this straight.  The Inst knew that the student didnt have any money and yet he still let them attend classes, and for 2 yrs!!!!!!  First off, the Inst must be one of two things.  Either they are not concerned with the money or they are prety stupid for letting it go on for that long.  He has nobody to blame but himself!  The should have been taken care of after the first month, nevermind 2 yrs.

As for the student....just goes to show that they are very selfish and are only thinking of themselves.  

Mike


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## theletch1 (Feb 18, 2004)

I see the student as the definite problem here.  Granted the instructor may have reacted in an unprofessional/immature manner BUT the student not only disrespected the instructor (by not setting up some sort of arrangement) on an individual basis but did so in public.  If there is an up side to the instructors behavior at least the message may have been gotten across that that sort of behavior will not be tolerated.  I've gotten behind in payment myself (medical bills) but have had the respect for my instructor to discuss it with him.  He offered to stretch the payments out over time once I was back to work and healthy but I managed to get him payed back all at once.  I would imagine that the instructor in this case would have done the same had he been consulted instead of insulted.


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## CiNcO dOsE (Feb 18, 2004)

i should have made some points more clear.

the student has been learning under him for like more than 2 years now.  and the student only havent paid 2 payments  (1 payment for sept-dec, and another for jan-april).

the instructor was always cool about the student paying late, and the instructor knew that the student would pay as he always does.  and for the first time the instructor reacted the way he did during this situation.

when the student said that he hasnt even paid, he was not talking directly to anyone, and in fact he was standing all by himself with a good distance from the others.  2 or 3 others heard it and just reacted with a smile/giggle/laugh.  it was more kinda a fake laugh or jsut a respond laugh.  and the student didnt have any meaning behind what he said, or any intentions, it was jsut one of those things that you say, and thats it, jsut pure combination of words and nothing else.

an update:
the student tried to talk to the instructor, and tried to go over his house a couple oif times already.  but the instructor kept telling the student that he is busy and jsut closes the door on the students face without even giving a chance for him to speak.

this is like a soap opera in our dojo hahah.  now 2 guys dont have a partner for their testing next month.


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## loki09789 (Feb 19, 2004)

Again, it is on both sides.  The instructor has set up a situation of permissiveness.  It might have been better to work out installments if these long blocks instead of waiting - which obviously has led to some frustration on the instructors part.  He set himself up for stress.

NO ONE should discuss money on the dojo floor, unless it is a new student situation with rates.  What if the instructor decided to adjust his rates for this or some other student because of financial circumstances/trading services for lessons (administrative, graphics/advertising work... I have traded lessons for construction and T Shirt making in the past).  These details are private and confidential, verbal contract between two people.

The student really should have been better about making somekind of 'good faith' installments instead of making the instructor sweat out a three month block.  That is a long time when it is your livelyhood.

The instructor set a bad precedence, the student demonstrated an immaturity - not necessarily hostile, but poor judgement.  Now the instructor is living with the consequences as well as the student.

The student should really just give the instructor what ever money he can, with a written outline of an offered payment plan and apologize for not being more considerate of the position he put the instructor in.  The instructor SHOULD at least take the offer into consideration and open communication up with the student again.  He sounds young/immature, but not a waste of time.  Maybe the instructor is even reacting to something entirely unrelated, this was just the last straw...

Wow that was long.

Paul M


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## Grasshoppah (Feb 19, 2004)

CiNcO dOsE said:
			
		

> i should have made some points more clear.
> 
> the student has been learning under him for like more than 2 years now.  and the student only havent paid 2 payments  (1 payment for sept-dec, and another for jan-april).
> 
> ...




This teacher should still except this student if he is loyal and wants to learn. If he has a hard time with paying he should come to class early and sweep the floors before and after. This is part of martial arts showing your respect to your training area and towards your teacher and to the rest of the students if they feel this situation with payments maybe unfair. Sweeping the floor is a work out especially if your Dojo is big. I don't know about Dojo's with carpet though maybe I would still make him sweep it. This should not only be for this one particular student to sweep floors but for anyone who comes in early or stays late. The guy who cleans the Dojo has the whole floor to himself and may know more because he has more feeling.


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## Tapps (Feb 20, 2004)

Sorry, gotta side with the instructor here.

Maybe the teacher was trying to cut the student a break. 
By making that a public announcement the student caused the problem.

Talk money in Private. If you can't pay ... don't attend or it is your obligation to try to negotiate a deal.  

I've seen good will abused. My instructor has been very generous to myself and others in the past. I would NEVER embarass him by announcing that I wasn't paying There were times when I was extended some credit **NOT free** just some leeway. In fact Remy Presas offered to loan me the money to go to my first camp. Why would I go to camp and tell people who just shelled out $400 plus that bit of info ?

If I'm a student on that floor struggling to pay my way and someone makes an announcement like that  .... I'm pissed.


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## Cruentus (Feb 20, 2004)

I have to side with the instructor as well.

It can be very frustrating for an instructor when your trying to keep the doors open and a roof over your head, and you have students who seem to completely take for granted this fact. This is always the case; its rare to find a student who treats the money situation fairly. How many students do YOU see who are eager to pay the instructor for his time, on time, and maybe slip him a bonus on the holidays or during slow periods just to show appreciation? How about rarely. A bonus shouldn't be expected, especially from students in financial dilemmas. The problem isn't a bonus, though, its that many people are almost always trying to get something for nothing.

And the sad thing is, it doesn't seem to matter whether you charge $5 dollors or $50 dollars for a lesson, there always seem to be complaints from someone. Trust me....I charge so little for my services as an instructor that its highways robbery, yet I have had people complain, make little comments, or convienently "forget" to pay me to where I have to chase after them for money.

So, as fustrating as this can be, the instructor was willing to put himself on the line for his student, and allow him to pay late. And it doesn't matter that he always has paid eventually...the bills don't away. I can't call the electric company and tell them I am going to be a month late paying, but its cool "because I always pay eventually". I'll be training in the dark if I were to do that! 

So, the instructor puts himself on the line, and the student draws attention to it by publically mentioning it so a bunch of other students can hear. And he's "joking around" about it to boot, which makes matters worse. This adds insult to injury, not to mention it creates a major business problem. The instructor HAD to publically tell him what he told him, otherwise every other student would be asking to pay him late, and "Why not...you did it for so-and-so!" This cannot happend, because like I said, the bills don't go away. And, I am sure that the instructor doesn't give deals for everyone.

I have been in money situations before, and have gotten deals. I give deals to others who are in money situations. I don't EVER talk about these in public because its just in bad form.

I am sure the instructor feels hurt and angry at this student. I am sure he feels stabbed in the back. Now, I can't say that the instructor was completely faultless in everything he did. He should have probably expressed to the student that he doesn't allow all his students to pay late, so to not mention it to the others. I personally would probably not be so upset over the matter, and would allow the student to talk with me, and not close the door on his face. Yet, I cannot tell someone how they should feel. All I can say is that yea, maybe the instructor could have done some things differently, but its the student who is in the wrong here on many levels.

If I were the student, I'd learn a lesson from this. Also, If I were the student, I'd recognize that I am in the wrong, and the need to right that wrong. If I were the student, I'd mail the instructor a letter of apoligy, and a check for my owed dues, and I would ask him permission to be able to come to class again, but that I'd understand if I wasn't welcome. I'd call or stop by if I didn't hear a response in a week. This would be the right thing to do.

Perhaps you should give your friend my advise? Or better yet, I am sure your friend has internet access...maybe let him give his take on the issue here?

Keep us updated...it will be interesting to see how this gets resolved, and your students character in the end.

PAUL
 :ultracool


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## CiNcO dOsE (Feb 21, 2004)

my friend, the "student,"  registered and now waiting for his account to get activated.  he actually didnt know that i posted this   , i was just curious on what other students/instructors have to say or think or their opinion or what they would have done if they were in this situation.

for the meantime, i will try to provide more info about the situation and keep you guys updated.

actually the instructor doesnt have to pay bills (water/electricity) for the dojo.  he teaches in a community center, basically he jsut walks in teach and leave.  he did have to pay for the membership for the center though.  

there are 2 ways to register to train, one through the community center, and one through the instructor.  if the student registers through the instructor, the instructor gets the whole payment, the center gets none.  if the student registers through the community center, the instructor gets partial and the center gets most of it.  the amount the community center pays the instructor depends on the number of students who registered through the community center.

the instructor did say that he has no problem with the money issues/fees/payments to everyone.  most students know this, if not all.  but if a student wants or has to test then the student must pay before he/she can test (training fee and test fee).

the instructor is knowledgeable about his art and generous about it.  easy going and a nice guy.  the class does not have a very formal atmosphere, it has more of an easy going atmosphere.  students exchange jokes and stuff during class, the instructor exchanges jokes with students, everyone is having fun during class.  of course there is a control to this.  (dont picture a dojo full of students laughing and giggling all the time all over the place).  but i think, sometimes, the problem is, you cant tell the instructor's mood most of the time.  the instructor could be joking around and once you blink your eyes hes all very serious.  the instructor jsut switches mood just like that.  so thats kinda hard for the students too.  like if one student is still in a joking mood becuase of the instructors jokes, and then the student pulls out his/her jokes right after, but then the instructor has already switched back to his serious mood (in a blink of an eye , for real), then its bad for the student, or he/she might get into some trouble.  you guys get what i mean!??!

so this is some background info about the dojo/class.  lets wait for "the student" to get some first hand updates.

later peeps.

 :asian:


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## max (Mar 16, 2004)

Good day all,

First of all, I would like to introduce myself, my name is Max and I am the "student" 5:12 was referring to.

My particular situation has been resolved already, a week or a couple of weeks ago?! To make a long story short, I am allowed to train again and the "instructor" and I have talked about the problem.

Although the problem has been resolved, and I am glad about the result, there are a few things which I am not pleased about. But first, let me share on how we talked about our situation. Bear with me.

I decided to call the instructor and after a few tries he finally answered his phone. At first he tried to come up with some excuses so he wouldn't have to talk to me, but I guess he couldn't come up with something reasonable so we talked. He started talking about what had happened and what he thought the problem was. At this time, the main reason he was emphasizing was that it was unfair for the other students if I don't pay or if I pay late and that I didn't make an arrangement with him about my payment. This matter I agree of course and I apologized for it and he accepted. He then told me that if I don't have the money, I could pay in other ways, like helping him with some work in his backyard, which I am completely alright and no problem with. But either way, I already have my money for my fees and so now I can pay him. To make the long story short again, he said I could go back to class and he is ok with it now and I apologized again for my mistakes. 

I saw the instructor outside of class and it seemed ok. He even approached me for a conversation  I am glad that everything is ok.

And now here is the part I am not so pleased about. When the whole conversation happened, the focus was all on my mistake and my mistake alone. Now, what about the "instructor's" mistakes? His unprofessionalism, the immaturity that he displayed? Another friend made a good point, maybe the instructor was power tripping? Being selfish? Big headed, in a way that it seemed that I came crawling back and begged to train again? Although I was prepared to accept whichever decision he would have made, to be allowed back or not.

Here is another thing, he told me that the main reason he got upset, mad, angry is that it was unfair for the other students if I don't pay or if I pay late and that I didn't make an arrangement with him. But then, he told the other students different reasons on why he got upset, mad, angry. He told the others that it was what I said ("I haven't even paid yet") that made him upset, mad, angry. And that because of this, what would the other students (referring mostly to the new comers) think of him, that they might look down on him or to undermine him. Basically, he was worried about his reputation or what others might think of him. I understand, yes, but why couldn't he tell me this or atleast mention it when we were talking about the situation? Why did he have to tell two different things? Or why did he have to go on telling the others about it?

One more thing, the following class after the incident, the instructor approached one of my good friends and started telling him things about the situation. The instructor tried to explain what had happened. My friend had no clue and didn't know what the instructor was talking about. The instructor already assumed that I have discussed the incident with my friend already (which I have not at that time). Just the fact that the instructor approached my friend and tried to explain to him what had happened, while assuming that I already told my friend is just :idunno:.

I apologize for ranting, my first post. That was long. By the way the smilies are cool. And thank you for reading it and for those who are/were interested with my situation :asian:.


Peace.


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