# Knife of Baseball Bat?



## Kane (Jul 29, 2004)

The knife has always been the most widely used self defense tool for a normal civilian. It is small and simple to carry.

However, baseball bats are becoming very popular in street fights and even gang wars. In fact, the baseball bat is probably used the most in gang fights besides guns. At least I see it used a lot in the big cities near my house.

Anyway, if you had NO choice and you have to fight a street fight using one of the two weapons, which one would you choose? Lets try to broaden the question a little and not limit it to street fights. How about fights in the wild, which weapon would you choose between the two to defend your self against wild animals?



To the following challenges, state which weapon you would use for each battle;



Black Belt Martial Artist in a Striking Art (Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, ect.)

Black Belt Martial Artist in a Grappling Art (Wrestling, Judo, Ju Jitsu, ect.)

Huge Man over 300 pounds that knows a little fighting but a lot of BRUTE strength

Angry 130 pound Alpha Male Wolf 

Hungary 155 pound Male Puma

Enraged 150 pound Male Chimpanzee


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## Zepp (Jul 29, 2004)

Some of those situations you picked are rather interesting...

Against any human, I'd prefer the weapon with a longer reach- the bat in this case.  If you count a machete as a knife, then I'd take that instead (assuming I don't have to worry about legal consequences).

Fighting animals is always an odd case compared to humans, but I think the longer, more visible weapon would be a better deterent and do a better job of keeping you out of harm's way (if it's possible to stay out of harm's way with a 155lb. puma).  FYI, I 'm pretty sure there's never been a documented case of a wild grey wolf attacking a human in North America.  In the case of the chimp, the best tactic is usually to throw some food on the ground and run away.  A chimp would have to be rabid to bother running after you in an attempt to hurt you, and they don't tend to get rabies very often.

Ok, funny story:  I once actually had to get out of the way of a scared chimpanzee that was running loose at the LA zoo. Some moron had thrown a rope into the chimp enclosure, and he had already bitten one of the zoo keepers who had tried to coax him into a trap.  The idiot who got bit (probably did something to deserve it) stood up on a bench and told the crowd "everyone run, he's dangerous."   I was much more worrried about a crowd of stampeding, stupid humans than I was about some scared ape, so I convinced my mom and my younger sister (I was 12 at the time) to head away from the crowd.  Unfortunately the chimp had the same idea as us, and we met up with him.  He then decided he wanted to follow us.  I dropped my half-eaten ice cream butterfinger bar on the ground in the hopes of distracting him while we ran, and he stopped to pick it up.  No weapon of any kind needed except common sense.


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## lonecoyote (Jul 29, 2004)

The knife against any human and the bat against any animal, though I'd prefer a staff or stick or almost anything else. Baseball bat is a weapon that is easily obtainable and that's why it gets used. Not the greatest weapon. It takes both hands to use and In close one can jam it up, or if an attacker misses a swing, there's a pretty good lag, in comparison to knife, stick or whatever to get another swing off. In other words, dont miss. If one were going to use a bat, I'd say shorten up the stance, feet closer together, get low, and swing for the knees.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 29, 2004)

Against the Hungarian Puma...I'd use the knife.  Against a Romanian puma, the baseball bat.  I've heard the latter is less aggressive.  :wink2:

Actually...it'd be the knife in any instance where I thought lethal force was required.  Against the wolf, puma and chimp, neither weapon would work that well...but I'd take the knife in the forlorn hope I could kill the animal before he eviscerated me.

Regards,


Steve


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## Kenpodoc (Jul 29, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> The knife has always been the most widely used self defense tool for a normal civilian. It is small and simple to carry.
> 
> QUOTE]
> Actually I believe the stick has been the most widely used self defense tool.  I believe that English records prior to 1900 show the cudgel as the most common weapon used in homicides on that island.  I suspect that the low cost, easy access and ability to slip beneath the radar of law enforcement  make the stick the most commonly used self defense tool.
> ...


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## Brother John (Jul 29, 2004)

> To the following challenges, state which weapon you would use for each battle;


OK, I will.


> Black Belt Martial Artist in a Striking Art (Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, ect.)


Fully loaded/ignited Flame Thrower.
 :flame: 


> Black Belt Martial Artist in a Grappling Art (Wrestling, Judo, Ju Jitsu, ect.)


Fully loaded/ignited Flame Thrower.
 :flame: 


> Huge Man over 300 pounds that knows a little fighting but a lot of BRUTE strength


Fully loaded/ignited Flame Thrower.
 :flame: 


> Angry 130 pound Alpha Male Wolf



Fully loaded/ignited Flame Thrower.
 :flame: 



> Hungary 155 pound Male Puma



Fully loaded/ignited Flame Thrower.
 :flame: 

I'd go ahead and do the last one, but I think you pick up on the trend.

Your Brother
John


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## Bammx2 (Jul 29, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> OK, I will.
> 
> Fully loaded/ignited Flame Thrower.
> :flame:
> ...


But my moral side would get to me.....and I'd have to beat the flames out with the baseball bat.
All that screamin would just get on my nerves after a while................I think.


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## OULobo (Jul 29, 2004)

Anything with a large advantage in body mass to me I would say the knife. It negates the effect of muscle insulating against impact. I would say that the current common usage of the baseball bat is due to it's acceptance in everyday life. It is a formidable weapon that usually won't get construed as a concealed weapon.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 29, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Anything with a large advantage in body mass to me I would say the knife. It negates the effect of muscle insulating against impact. I would say that the current common usage of the baseball bat is due to it's acceptance in everyday life. It is a formidable weapon that usually won't get construed as a concealed weapon.



I agree... I see local bangers wandering around in groups with kids following them carrying aluminum bats... who's gonna take a kids bat away from him, but its painfully obvious the bats are for the bangers... I mean, 2 kids, carrying 2 bats each, no gloves, no balls... Uh huh, they are playing baseball.

Against the people... I would use whichever the situation warranted.  Each weapon has its strengths and weaknesses.

Against the wolf, The bat.  I wouldnt wanna get TOO close to it, and the bat would help with that. 

Against the  puma, probably the knife, lashed to the bat. 

Against the Chimp.  A banana flavored bat.


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## hkg (Jul 29, 2004)

id use my crazy tiger teeth! no seriously id use a bat agaisnt both as of the longer reach but actually havin said that if either got in close then a knife!


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## Flatlander (Jul 29, 2004)

hkg, welcome to the board!  Feel free to browse around.  You'll find a lot of good stuff throughout the various forums.  Enjoy your stay!


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## hkg (Jul 29, 2004)

thanks alot. so hows this belt system done is it how many posts u do?


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## Flatlander (Jul 29, 2004)

hkg said:
			
		

> thanks alot. so hows this belt system done is it how many posts u do?


check out this thread:  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5312

As well, spend some time in that forum and familiarize yourself with how things work.


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## Cruentus (Jul 29, 2004)

I feel like a moron for participating in this, but...

I'd use a bagwell bowie every time!  :supcool:


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 29, 2004)

"gun" as an answer for each one, although ideally I'd be able to figure out why the wolf, puma, or chimp were pissed and behaviorally placate them.  (For an enraged chimp, if you submit, they tend to thump you a few times but then calm down a little bit.)  If "gun" (and hopefully being a good shot) is not an option, it would depend on whether I thought they could take the knife or bat away from me.


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## Tydive (Aug 22, 2004)

In my experience very few attackers have knives and even fewer have a clue how to use them. Bats, sticks, tire irons, chains etc.. are much more common. Now it's been quite a few years, but I don't think that has changed much.

Vs Humans I would pick a knife / sword. Mainly because I know how to use blades and the rest of my body at the same time. A knife is a fantastic distraction and very deadly.

Vs Animals the Bat. Because I want to bash the sucker on the nose before it gets it's teeth into me. Also I can jam the bat into it's mouth while kicking the crap out of it.

Also keep in mind that if you use a baseball bat as a weapon you should wield it like an axe. Two hands spaced out, dominant hand on the heavy end. You swing with the handle end, not the heavy end of the bat. Also keep in mind all the stuff that works with a Bo works with a Bat, people forget straight strikes and pressure locks which can be lots of fun.


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## Trent (Sep 3, 2004)

I would say it will depend upon your training and your opponent; however, if it were me and I had to choose one-- the knife.

Reason being, I'm more comfortable with a bladed weapon, although I've trained in both for quite awhile.  Further, there is far less room for error on the part of your opponent more room for error on the part of yourself regarding your opponent if you have a sharp edge and point.  Just a touch during dynamic conditions and the skin is open, blood flows.  Much more pressure and at least muscle is severed, a good target and an artery and/or organ is compromised.  Also, believe it or not, a decent strike with even a well constructed 3" folder will cleave through bone in living tissue astonishingly well.

With a bat a great crushing blow can be delivered, but it is far slower, and position is much more important for and real damage. Unless you work specifically with a bat for combat the timing is very different even than another stick due to its weight and shape.  Sure you can punyo close up and do some grappling, but the damage is more annoying than anything else unless you're very skilled, and I still have my knife.  I wise assailant will rush a bat wielder to close distance, then that weapon is nearly moot with most people.  And if the defender is more experienced with it, it now becomes a liablity for the attacker instead of a weapon.

Just food for thought.


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## bignick (Sep 3, 2004)

> Huge Man over 300 pounds that knows a little fighting but a lot of BRUTE strength



what about the huge man over 300 pounds that has a brute strength and training?
(aka me :wink: )

honestly...it depends...for me...i'd use the baseball bat for most situations...i know how to use a baseball bat and i've had very little training with offensive knifework...also i could use the bat as short staff and do some takedowns and joint locking/controls with it...

but i know a guy who's dad is a fencing instructor and he's been fencing since he could walk...and i've seen him use a knife during self-defense practice and i'm sorry but, i defy anybody to apply a successful defense against him with a knife...if you manage to grab the hand that's using the knife, before you even think about disarming, it is in the other hand and you've been cut 3-4 times...my point...if i were him...i'd go with the knife


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## AaronLucia (Sep 3, 2004)

I'd choose a knife in a heartbeat..

While bats are nice for range, knives are just..eek!


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## Silat Student (Sep 4, 2004)

Black Belt Martial Artist in a Striking Art (Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, ect.)

Bat, lashing out at any limb the guy trys to hit me with.

Black Belt Martial Artist in a Grappling Art (Wrestling, Judo, Ju Jitsu, ect.)

Knife, since I'll probably end up at close range and unable to effectively employ the bat.

Huge Man over 300 pounds that knows a little fighting but a lot of BRUTE strength

Knife, Most Brute Strengthers I've met try to grapple.

All the Animals

My friends scoped 7mm Savage Arms 110. From what I've seen  (and thankfully never experienced) fighting animals is difficult and extremely unpleasant.


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## someguy (Sep 8, 2004)

Knife?  Baseball bat? pah
Gun? don't be silly.
:xwing: 
Yeah I win.
Or maybe :apv:  or :biggun:


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

yes...i'll chose tank anyday...against any animal


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## someguy (Sep 9, 2004)

How about against Godzilla?


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## bignick (Sep 9, 2004)

oooh...that could be a tough call...then i'd probably go for a giant robotic godzilla that i could control...that should do the trick


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## OULobo (Sep 9, 2004)

Just don't try little model Japanese tanks or "special sonic tanks". They never seem to do much. Personally, I'd just zip a few heat packs into the suit and watch the guy inside bake.


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## bignick (Sep 9, 2004)

haha...yes, i suppose that could do it...


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## Kane (Dec 20, 2004)

Against Godzilla I would use a hydrogen bomb. Makes you wonder why they never use nuclear weapons against Godzilla in any movie.

What about King Kong?


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## bignick (Dec 20, 2004)

because godzilla was always in their cities...and i'm sure they would prefer not to wipe out half their population...


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## still learning (Dec 20, 2004)

Hello, Against humans, my choice will be the bat. Most of us know it has a longer reach and most people can't take the blows of a bat to any part of the body,expecially the head, the limbs,

 Against animals, maybe the knife might work better, better to cut than hit the animal, just my thoughts, ....Aloha

 This is for fun....our comments?  OK.


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## Kane (Dec 20, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> because godzilla was always in their cities...and i'm sure they would prefer not to wipe out half their population...


Yea but if they tell the people to evacuate the city (which they do in one of the movies I saw a while back) then they can use and I'm sure Godzilla can't survive the force of Nuclear Fusion. Oh wait, I forgot that Japan does not have nuclear weapons.


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## Marginal (Dec 21, 2004)

I dunno how effective a nuke would be on Godzilla. The whole reason he supposedly woke up in the first place was due to them testing one where he was dozing. Also that fire he breathes is supposed to be atomic fire... 

I'd settle for yelling "Oh no! Godzilla!" That guy never seems to never get killed. 

While we're on fictional characters, I'd take the bat vs animals due to the fact that Johnny Goodboy Taylor killed a bear with a club, and he wasn't worried about panthers because all he had to do was sidestep them and smash 'em in the head while they were helplessly flying by after their failed leap.


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## Hwoarang_tkd26 (Dec 21, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> The knife has always been the most widely used self defense tool for a normal civilian. It is small and simple to carry.
> 
> However, baseball bats are becoming very popular in street fights and even gang wars. In fact, the baseball bat is probably used the most in gang fights besides guns. At least I see it used a lot in the big cities near my house.
> 
> ...



 Okay, so your telling me I have basically two choices: baseball bat, or Knive.

 



> Black Belt Martial Artist in a Striking Art (Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, ect.)


Baseball bat. 



> Black Belt Martial Artist in a Grappling Art (Wrestling, Judo, Ju Jitsu, ect.)


 
Baseball bat.



> Huge Man over 300 pounds that knows a little fighting but a lot of BRUTE strength


Baseball bat. 



> Angry 130 pound Alpha Male Wolf


 
Baseball bat.



> Hungary 155 pound Male Puma


 
Baseball bat.



> Enraged 150 pound Male Chimpanzee


Baseball bat.

I think that I have thing with range and distance, I dont like an apponent getting too close to me (unless its grappling then im fine with it). I like being at a certain distance were I can hit my opponent but they cant hit me.
Maybe that is why I prefur to kick rather than punch most of the time.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 21, 2004)

For a large cat, anything short of a sword or spear would be futile.  As for a lone wolf, if he did attack, a large stick or bat.  A pack of wolves who really want you, you had better back yourself in a corner and keep swinging.  Humans?  It helps to understand the strengths and limits of each.  A bat is great for keeping someone at bay.  Once they get inside it's range, however, it becomes almost useless.  A knife works from jabbing range all the way in to grappling range.  A knife also has the ability to cause the most disabling and potentially fatal damage in the shortest period of time.  Either weapon needs to be used aggressively and with committment against a dedicated attacker.  If you swing a bat simply like you are hitting a baseball, you'll succeed only against an opponent who isn't experienced or trained.  A trained fighter can get passed the baseball swing fairly easily.  The knife is harder to counter.


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## Kane (Dec 22, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> For a large cat, anything short of a sword or spear would be futile.


Not true, people have even bested larger bears with knives. Actually there have even been doumented cases of people who strangled leopards and cougars to death. almost all of these people had no martial art experiance. Meaning in general a knife or baseball bat is all what is needed for a leopard, jaguar, or cougar. As for a lion or tiger anything lower than a sword or spear would be futile, but mot for the other cats.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 23, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> Not true, people have even bested larger bears with knives. Actually there have even been doumented cases of people who strangled leopards and cougars to death. almost all of these people had no martial art experiance. Meaning in general a knife or baseball bat is all what is needed for a leopard, jaguar, or cougar. As for a lion or tiger anything lower than a sword or spear would be futile, but mot for the other cats.


Yeah, and there have been known instances of people falling out of airplanes and surviving after falling thousands of feet.  I wouldn't place my survival on a freak accident.  If a knife or baseball bat is all you brought, it's all you brought, but the odd's are low.  I'm not giving up without a fight, but i'm not extremely optimistic.  The best bet you have is to make a good stand and scare the animal off.  If he's committed, though, you'll have a heck of a time. I see you take on a jaguar with a baseball bat, and i'll believe it can be done effectively.  Until then, it's wild speculation.  More to the point, take on a Kodiak grizzly with a baseball bat or a knife and win, and i'll take my hat off to you.  At any rate, if you're going in to wild animal country, don't bring a knife or a bat and hope it'll protect you.


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## Flamebearer (Dec 23, 2004)

If I weighed 300 lbs and all of it was muscle I'd use the bat.

But for scrawny old me -- pass the knife, please.
-Flamebearer


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 23, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> The knife has always been the most widely used self defense tool for a normal civilian. It is small and simple to carry.
> 
> However, baseball bats are becoming very popular in street fights and even gang wars. In fact, the baseball bat is probably used the most in gang fights besides guns. At least I see it used a lot in the big cities near my house.
> 
> ...



This is sort of silly, but I'm bored at work, so whatdahey.

Knife, to all.

Get inside the arc of a ball bat, and the force delivery is significantly reduced. Changing direction in midswing, or switching hands in the event of limb injury to ones self are minimal options with a twig. Also, maiming with quick attacks is not an option due to the size and weight of a bat.

Blades let you do significant harm. Short, sweet. Easily controlled and maintained.

D.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 23, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> This is sort of silly, but I'm bored at work, so whatdahey.
> 
> Knife, to all.
> 
> ...


Shotgun 
Shotgun
Shotgun
Shotgun
Shotgun

Bringing a blade or a baseball bat means you failed to plan, and now you're stuck with 4th or 5th best.  If course, if it's what you brought, deal with it.  Proper Previous Planning Prevents Pour Performance.  I always at least have a .40 Glock and a folding knife.  That's even underarmed in some circumstances.  Give that some thought.


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## Adept (Dec 24, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I always at least have a .40 Glock and a folding knife. That's even underarmed in some circumstances. Give that some thought.


 Carrying that kind of weaponry in some countries will score you some serious jail time.


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 24, 2004)

Nike
Nike
Nike
Nike
Nike
Nike


Someone once said "just as discretion is the better part of valor, cowardice is the better part of discretion"


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 28, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> Carrying that kind of weaponry in some countries will score you some serious jail time.


Yeah, but i'm a cop, so I can carry concealed in all 50 states.  If it comes down to it, it's better to have a weapon and not need it, than need it and not have it.


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## Adept (Dec 28, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Yeah, but i'm a cop, so I can carry concealed in all 50 states. If it comes down to it, it's better to have a weapon and not need it, than need it and not have it.


 I dont think even cops are allowed to carry concealed in Australia, where I live. I absolutely agree with you though, better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Thats almost my signature phrase. I used it to make sure my fiancee gets her handgun licence and to make sure she keeps a first aid kit in the car (and knows how to use it).


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 28, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> I dont think even cops are allowed to carry concealed in Australia, where I live. I absolutely agree with you though, better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Thats almost my signature phrase. I used it to make sure my fiancee gets her handgun licence and to make sure she keeps a first aid kit in the car (and knows how to use it).


Yeah, I've been hearing about Austrailia's increasingly restrictive stand on firearms in the last few years.  How's that working out for you folks?


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## Simon Curran (Dec 29, 2004)

The chances of me going around with any kind of weapon at any time is virtually zero due to legal restrictions, so my answer in all of the above situations would be whatever I can find at the time.


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## Adept (Dec 29, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Yeah, I've been hearing about Austrailia's increasingly restrictive stand on firearms in the last few years. How's that working out for you folks?


 I'm not a fan. It hasnt done anything to decrease the amount of firearm related deaths, and while crime rates over all are falling, rates of violent crimes are climbing. I'm a keen hunter and recreational shooter, so its of particular interest to me.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 30, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> I'm not a fan. It hasnt done anything to decrease the amount of firearm related deaths, and while crime rates over all are falling, rates of violent crimes are climbing. I'm a keen hunter and recreational shooter, so its of particular interest to me.


Yeah, I really feel for you guys.  The nanny state is spreading across the world.  What's even more disgusting is these nanny staters can't deal effectively with real criminals, so they turn their sights to law abiding citizens.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 6, 2005)

Self defense and ownership of weapons is a G-d given natural right . States may DENY that right but the right remains. Every animal has some way naturally, of evasion, camoflage or defense. Man needs manufactured weapons, and G-d gave us a brain so that we could design and manufacture such. Think about that and you'll get my hidden point..


I've been a US 2nd Amendment activist since 1989 when we lived in California. My lady and I are very well trained in the use of most all small arms and we both have concealed carry permits for our State.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 6, 2005)

Self defense and ownership of weapons is a G-d given natural right . States may DENY that right but the right remains. Every animal has some way naturally, of evasion, camoflage or defense. Man needs manufactured weapons, and G-d gave us a brain so that we could design and manufacture such. Think about that and you'll get my hidden point..


I've been a US 2nd Amendment activist since 1989 when we lived in California. My lady and I are very well trained in the use of most all small arms and we both have concealed carry permits for our State.

BTW my favorite carry handguns are my custom 9mm Browning Hi-Powers and 1911 .45 ACPs.


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