# Advice for ending contract early?



## SmellyMonkey (Sep 8, 2004)

I made a rookie mistake of signing a long term contract with a McDojo.  It made sense at the time to sign a 3 year contract because my wife and I really loved the two masters who taught at our school.  As of today, however, both of the masters who were there when we started have left.  The grandmaster (who doesn't teach classes himself) hired two new replacement masters.  I don't like the hapkido style of one of the new masters, and the other master only knows TKD.

I have a year and a half left on my contract. 

Also, the master I am most fond of has opened her own school.  My wife and I have had private lessons with her before she opened the school, and of course now we want to be students at her school.

Any ideas how I can get out of this thing?  

FYI, the school I attend is Hyun's Hapkido in Chicago.  If you are thinking of going to this school, don't.  GM Hyun is only looking for your money.

Jeremy


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## D_Brady (Sep 8, 2004)

Did they leave an out for you some where, like the fact you signed up to be with those particular instructors and now there gone.

Or if you show up naked will they ask you to leave and terminated your contract, hey just a thought


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## Kumbajah (Sep 8, 2004)

The non confrontational approach - 

Usually there is a contract stipulation if you move so many miles from the dojang you can void the contract - tell them you are moving. Proof? give a friend or relatives address that qualifies. Adding, thanks for your time there and you will miss them is a nice touch. 

Or just stop payment and hash it out with the collection agency.


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## SmellyMonkey (Sep 8, 2004)

I like the showing up naked part...but my wife is pretty jealous and I don't think I could get that one by her.

Anyway, I'm looking for some honorable ways to get out of the contract.


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## Lisa (Sep 8, 2004)

It seems a good heart to heart talk with the owner/operator is out of the question especially if he is only after the money aspect of the school.  The instructors are hired employees so going to them would be mute.  I understand your need to end it honorably, but is his iron clad contract honorable?  People often change their views on training and move on to other things.  Having new students sign a three year contract does not seem very honorable in my eyes.  Can you offer him a buy out of some kind?  I know you probably don't want to pay him anything but if you could come to a mutual amount then you can leave with your honor and credit rating in tact and he can be rid of a student that really doesn't want to be there and could become disgruntled during classes, and avoid the costs of a collection agency etc?  Just a thought.


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## SmellyMonkey (Sep 8, 2004)

You're right.  I suppose his lack of honor does not require me to act as honorable as I would normally.  

I will call him and see if I can work something out.  I really don't want to show up for a face to face chat because I am really intimated by him!

I will let you all know what happens.  I'll call him in 5 minutes.


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## Taimishu (Sep 8, 2004)

I dont know how things work that side of the pond but I had a similar problem over here a while ago.

It was much the same, 3 year contract, and I wouldnt even call them Mcdojo they wer'nt that good. Talking to them, no good, tried to suggest a compromise, no good. so I just left.

Next thing collections agents on my doorstep, politely told to foxtrot oscar. Letters demanding payment for the full term of the contract getting more and more threatening as time went on, totally ignored and passed to my solicitor.

Collections agents went too far and broke the law, great the local news loved that and my brief slapped them with a restraining order.
Dumb joe sorry dojo threatened "to send the boys around" found me playing with my Katana, decided to come back later, did and were met by the local cops.

result, in the end had my day in court and the court decided in my favour. No more contract.
It seems that I was not the only one in this situation and the conmen have moved on.

The fact that I was not really interested in my so called credit rating and refused to be bullied paid off.

David


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## SmellyMonkey (Sep 8, 2004)

I just got yelled at!  He thought I was attacking his school because I said we haven't been happy for a few months.  I was trying to say we believe our techniques have suffered due to the large class size, but he cut me off after "techniques suffered" saying that "I am trying to do the best I can, don't attack my school!"

Arrggg.  Sometimes Korean/American cuture really clash!


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 8, 2004)

Call your state attourney general's office, make a complaint, and you will be told you are SOL or you will be thanked for one more reason to invalidate all the schools contracts; because, you are not the only one. If you and your fellow complaintants can convince the state that you all feel mislead from an ostensibly good situation to a bad one, you just might walk.
Sean


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 8, 2004)

> politely told to foxtrot oscar


I love it.

I think Touch'O'Death has it right.


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

sorry to hear you got into this bad situation...i'd always heard about schools that make students sign contracts...but never really thought about it til i got on this board and found out how bad it gets sometimes....good luck fighting the good fight


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## Kumbajah (Sep 8, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> FYI, the school I attend is Hyun's Hapkido in Chicago.  If you are thinking of going to this school, don't.  GM Hyun is only looking for your money.
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking for some honorable ways to get out of the contract.
> 
> ...


You are getiing the short end of the stick here but...
First you made a commitment to study there for 3 years. A mistake, but one you made of your free will. Now you are trying to get out of your commitment. Understandably, because you are not happy with the training but ditching your committment is not loaded with honor to begin with. He has taught you... don't sign long term contracts. You have attacked his school on a public forum (see above).  You are not willing to meet him face to face to discuss it, also not loaded with honor. As as outside observer the only truely honorable ways are pay him the remainder and move on and call it a life lesson or take it to court and take your chances. As a hapkido practitioner you have learned to use an opponents power against him. In this case the contract. Find a loophole and exploit it. Not filled with honor but you have veered from that course already. My 2¢


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## AaronLucia (Sep 8, 2004)

Contracts..gotta love 'em.


I know when i signed up for the Army i looked over the contract carefully..

The last line on the said

'Anything written or guaranteed in this contract can be changed according to the needs of the Army.'

So much for that.


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 8, 2004)

Indeed. But thats the American stance on many things.


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## SmellyMonkey (Sep 8, 2004)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> You are getiing the short end of the stick here but...
> First you made a commitment to study there for 3 years. A mistake, but one you made of your free will. Now you are trying to get out of your commitment. Understandably, because you are not happy with the training but ditching your committment is not loaded with honor to begin with. He has taught you... don't sign long term contracts. You have attacked his school on a public forum (see above). You are not willing to meet him face to face to discuss it, also not loaded with honor. As as outside observer the only truely honorable ways are pay him the remainder and move on and call it a life lesson or take it to court and take your chances. As a hapkido practitioner you have learned to use an opponents power against him. In this case the contract. Find a loophole and exploit it. Not filled with honor but you have veered from that course already. My 2¢


You are right, I have much blame in this matter. I should not have signed such a long term contract, but because I have I have to deal with it. 

As for attacking the school in a public foreum, I suppose you are right.  I acted in anger and that was not correct.  If I could delete that line I would.

Anyway, thanks for your input. During difficult decisions like this it is always good to be humbled.


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## howard (Sep 8, 2004)

AaronLucia said:
			
		

> I know when i signed up for the Army i looked over the contract carefully..
> 
> The last line on the said
> 
> ...


man, that is great!  thanks for a good bellylaugh.


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## Sapper6 (Sep 8, 2004)

as for the law and how it pertains to contracts, do a search at your state governments website pertaining to health club (or something similiar) contract law.  believe me, it exists.  i went through a very similiar situation not long ago with a kenpo school.  like i said, look through the sections of contract law in your states revised statutes.  almost all laws pertaining to health club contracts are 99.9% the same from state to state.  and yes, as dumb as it sounds, martial arts schools fall under the term "health club" in the eyes of the most state's law books.  even if you dont like it, it works in your favor, especially in this case.  so find the law, contact your states attorney general office AND the better business bureau, just to get these complaints on the record, and then once again go to your school owner.  you'll be in the driver's seat then and he will most likely back down.  

if in your instance this guy _is_ running a money-hungry mcdojo, he almost certainly doesnt want this type negative advertising.  in addition, with having the thought of written law on your side, he'll be less likely to persure civil financial action against you.  almost any lawyer (smart one) will take your case and collections division wont touch his case with, especially with the looming notion of his financial contracts being perhaps unlawful.

hope this helps, good luck to you.

 :asian:


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

perhaps you need to have a sit down conversation...at least try to explain yourself and your situation before you take further action


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## SmellyMonkey (Sep 9, 2004)

After Kumbajah's post, I realized I had to be more honorable and have a man to man chat with the school owner.  I gave him another call and we had a long chat.  I told him what I liked and did not like about the school and my reasons for leaving.  I thanked him for the training his school gave me.  Anyway, he offered to cancel the contract if I paid him 1/3 of the balance owed.  That comes out to a little over $1000.  A ton of money, but again...it was my stupidity for signing a three year contract in the first place.  I think I will pay the money and concider it an expensive lesson.

Thanks for all your help with this topic.


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## D_Brady (Sep 9, 2004)

Don't forget to walk in naked and then drop into a low horse stance and hand him the money, it'll be a moment he won't soon forget.

I believe in making a lasting impression.


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## Sapper6 (Sep 9, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> After Kumbajah's post, I realized I had to be more honorable and have a man to man chat with the school owner.  I gave him another call and we had a long chat.  I told him what I liked and did not like about the school and my reasons for leaving.  I thanked him for the training his school gave me.  Anyway, he offered to cancel the contract if I paid him 1/3 of the balance owed.  That comes out to a little over $1000.  A ton of money, but again...it was my stupidity for signing a three year contract in the first place.  I think I will pay the money and concider it an expensive lesson.
> 
> Thanks for all your help with this topic.



good luck with your decision but i still dont think that is the only alternative.  you've allowed someone to make you feel guilty about all this and that in itself is dishonorable.  the math here is blowing my mind.  if i remember right, you are half way through your contract and he wants you to pay 1/3 of what is still owed which is over $1000?  that's absurd my friend.  

tell me, what kind of "honorable" master is going to force his students into 3 year contractual terms at that kind of total price...?  obviously someone who is not teaching for his students.  it's a shame this kind of thing exists.  i wouldnt feel bad about putting this guy's name/school out in the public realm either.  people need to know this kind of thing happens, but more importantly, where this kind of thing happens and who is doing it.

sorry to hear about this :asian:


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## bignick (Sep 9, 2004)

yeah...i just noticed that too...1/3 the remaining cost? sounded reasonable enough...according to you...you have about a year and a half left of the contract...

total price then would be $3000

3000/18 months = $166.66 a month

i can not possibly comprehend where that could go to..


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## whalen (Sep 9, 2004)

I think the whole contract thing is a good thing if you are a martial arts Business , I use the word BUSINESS because it is strictly that a business Decision to protect the interest of the dojang and the owner from loosing money if you decide you made a wrong choice he gets paid plain and simple.

I personally Do not agree please read a letter below i sent to my students about this issue

 As a martial artist and as a Master  I write to you about the destiny and  the path of the MUDO ACADEMY and our Decision.

 When we first opened our Doors I promised I WOULD NEVER TEACH FOR MONEY ( Nor did I realize it would cost me as much as it does and then some)

 Nor would I want someone in my class to be here because of a commitment on a piece of paper this is the Martial Arts Business and I cannot, and will not do this I am MUDO-IN a man of the Mudo way and this has cost us.

Unfortunately do to all the obstacles facing us We are forced to close our Doors on Oct. 1,2004 which coincidentally is my 25 year anniversary teaching Hapkido in the Boston area. And I am not doing this without tears in my eyes and sense of letting you down.

So when I leave the Dojang I will do it not as someone who failed but as someone  whom has made a contribution to Hapkido and to my students this allows me to walk with my head held high.

 I have memories of all my students from the first look in their eyes when they did their first Joint lock . And the look on their face when they grew in Hapkido. And some of the funny stories and experiences we have shared.


 I have talked to and tried to find appropriate Dojangs for you to train but very few share values and the caring for their students . There are many fine Martial Arts business in the area if you decide this is for you . I wish you luck in your endeavors wherever they may lead you. 

 I will not be leaving Hapkido as it is my life I have taken a different path or Detour . I am returning to JUDO as a white Belt removing my Black Belt and emptying my cup of tea. to once again become a student with no ego and return to my roots where i began my journey in 1967.


If you wish to train with with people that care about the arts like we do putting the ART first  and money is never an issue. then you are welcome to follow me To the Phoenix judo club where Will be taking a different path to the same destination self improvement and the Martial Way (MUDO)


  To those that i have had the privilege of leading and sharing the mat with . I thank you because of you I am who I am today. To those that are using this as reason to retire or give up the Martial arts, remember the strength  that have acquired along with the determination to succeed and the ability and determination to go the distance. If this all that you take from what I taught you I have not failed but you are a stronger person because of it. I m proud to say that I have taught and turned out some of the Best Black Belts this country has ever seen And I am proud to have the opportunity and the privilege of being your Master and instructor and friend. 



 HAPKI.........


     Hal


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## Disco (Sep 9, 2004)

Hal, sorry to hear of the closing of your dojang. Alas, this seems to be the trend for those that teach the correct way. Todays society is techno bent. It must be fast and it must be easy. The students who trained when we entered into the arts, wanted/needed and were not affraid of the challenge. I too am closing my small school next month. My partners and students all work in law enforcement/corrections, but we can't get enough of our own (who really need the training) to keep the doors open. There's always the exception of course, like Master Lugo in NY (keep up the good work Lugo), but they are becoming fewer and fewer. It's a sad commentary on our society in general though. Take care and enjoy your white belt time.


Mike Dunn


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## SmellyMonkey (Sep 9, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> yeah...i just noticed that too...1/3 the remaining cost? sounded reasonable enough...according to you...you have about a year and a half left of the contract...
> 
> total price then would be $3000
> 
> ...


The contract is for myself AND my wife.  We pay $211/month for the two of us to take 4 classes a week.


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## kwanjang (Sep 9, 2004)

Some time ago, several States implemented a restriction on long term contracts for the fitness industry (which apparently included martial arts) due to lack of integrity by facility owners.  The rules vary from State to State, so you need to check with your area Secretary of State to find the answer for your particular location.  It may well be that your school has an illegal contract with you.  Worth checking out.


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## Kumbajah (Sep 9, 2004)

Master Whalen, 

I am  sorry that circumstances have caused you to close your doors. It is a great loss for the Hapkido Community. I hope you will continue with your work with the KHF and your seminars. We  don't want to lose you entirely. Best of luck in next part of your journey.  

Brian


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## whalen (Sep 9, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> The contract is for myself AND my wife.  We pay $211/month for the two of us to take 4 classes a week.



My students paid $75 a month  five class's a week in witch Four i taught all class's two hours . 

It sounds a little high could be a BMW payment hahaha,,,,,


Hal


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## whalen (Sep 9, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Hal, sorry to hear of the closing of your dojang. Alas, this seems to be the trend for those that teach the correct way. Todays society is techno bent. It must be fast and it must be easy. The students who trained when we entered into the arts, wanted/needed and were not affraid of the challenge. I too am closing my small school next month. My partners and students all work in law enforcement/corrections, but we can't get enough of our own (who really need the training) to keep the doors open. There's always the exception of course, like Master Lugo in NY (keep up the good work Lugo), but they are becoming fewer and fewer. It's a sad commentary on our society in general though. Take care and enjoy your white belt time.
> 
> 
> Mike Dunn



I am not leaving Hapkido permanently i am still training two hours a day at the gym to keep in shape and i have one of My Black Belts to work with to keep my Hapkido Skills up to par.

I still will be conducting seminars as usual and I have few goals before i hang up the Belt altogether.

Hapki....

     Hal


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## Sarah (Sep 9, 2004)

whalen said:
			
		

> My students paid $75 a month five class's a week in witch Four i taught all class's two hours .
> 
> It sounds a little high could be a BMW payment hahaha,,,,,
> 
> ...


Wow....we pay NZ$55 a month for unlimited classes, includeing Stretch, Sparring and Cardio Classes!!


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## Sapper6 (Sep 9, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Some time ago, several States implemented a restriction on long term contracts for the fitness industry (which apparently included martial arts) due to lack of integrity by facility owners.  The rules vary from State to State, so you need to check with your area Secretary of State to find the answer for your particular location.  It may well be that your school has an illegal contract with you.  Worth checking out.



exactly Rudy!  you echo my point exactly.  :ultracool 

to smellymonkey:

dont feel compelled to abide by this contract before checking your state law.  it could turn out that this contract is illegal to begin with.  honor or no honor...it doesnt matter, you're getting ripped off.  dont let this guy win, it will only motivate more of his kind to open schools and do the same.

like i said before, i had encountered a similar situation before.  an 18 month contract...not bad, eh?  sure it wasnt until "things" within the school began to take a turn for the worse about 4 months in.  i too felt guily/compelled to do the right thing, and continue to pay; until i checked the state statute pertaining to such topic.  it seemed in my state, contracts of this nature could NOT exceed 12 MONTHS.  and even the 1 year contracts had to have an "out" clause for extenuating circumstances.

be safe, check into it, dont be screwed over.

good luck


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## Hollywood1340 (Sep 9, 2004)

In my town we have had over twenty schools come and go in the last ten years. For various reasons they closed the doors. IMO I think people fail to understand if you want to stay in buisness you need to run a buisness. And if buisness is secondary, you are shorting your students, as they will have no place to train, and yourself, for losing your buisness venture. I'm proud to be a member and employee of a full time martial arts facility. Five years to black belt and sweat and toil the whole way. Our results prove it that nothing comes easy, but nothing comes cheap either. If you'd like to be the best, pay for the best, but understand what you are paying for. We have a state of the art facility and feel with a full time professional staff that we are justifed in making money for ourselves and the school.


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## Sapper6 (Sep 9, 2004)

that's perfectly understandable hollywood :ultracool 

of course you have to make money to keep the doors open and to improve upon your facilities to attract new students.

what i question is the length of financial obligation this school imposes on it's students, that's all.  it seems to me it would scare more people away than attract them.  how many people on this forum can say at a moment's notice what they are going to be doing or where they will be living in the next 36 months?  i doubt many people can, this is real life, things tend to change over that course of time.  it should seem apparent that this karate master should be aware of this, but he didnt.  kinda like he set himself up for failure in the beginning.


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## Black Belt FC (Sep 9, 2004)

Master Dunn thanks for the praise! The secret the school success is due largely to our committed students and full support from my family. There are other factors that are allowing us to increase location facility workout space by 100%; professional curriculum, superior instruction formula and student center goals. Any instructor that will wish to partake in my success is welcome to contact me for business seminar. 





As for getting out of contract thats a sensitive issue since Im a full time owner but some factors I do allow for breaking agreement.  Loss of job, moved away, sick and job schedule change. In all cases solid proof must be shown otherwise student is require to paid. In your case I can understand wanting to leave school since the original instructors left, otherwise ultimately you must take full responsibility for your actions. Our society is based on contracts; jobs, marriage, local government and relationships. We will be in turmoil if everyone retracted on their agreements, to balance out settlements are made.  Signing for martial art instructions is no different than buying a lease on a car, if you dont pay it will be taken away and still have to pay!


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## SmellyMonkey (Sep 9, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Some time ago, several States implemented a restriction on long term contracts for the fitness industry (which apparently included martial arts) due to lack of integrity by facility owners. The rules vary from State to State, so you need to check with your area Secretary of State to find the answer for your particular location. It may well be that your school has an illegal contract with you. Worth checking out.


 Kwangjang, you are the MAN!  After reading your post, I did a google for illinois martial arts contracts.  As it turns out, contracts for services greater then 2 years are illegal in the state of illinois.  So my wife and I DID have illegal contracts.

 Before we went over to the school today, we stopped by the big downtown Chicago library and made photocopies of the actual act.

 When we arrive at the school, the grandmaster already has all the paperwork set up for us to pay $1023.33.  Well, I just lay down the copy of the act and ask him to read it.  Turns out he found out that 3 year contracts were illegal a few months after my wife and I signed our contracts.

 We had quite a long talk/debate/haggling session.  He kept trying to threaten/scam me into paying him the $1023 cancelation fee that he first quoted me, and I kept telling him that I couldn't afford such a fee.  I told him that I would be happy to pay some money, but not the entire amount.   He kept on asking for the $1023, and I finally told him that Illinois law says the entire contract is void.  I want to be honorable and pay hims SOME money so we can end our relationship on a positive note, but $1023 was too much.  He finally agreated to accept $460 for payment in full of over $3000 balance on my wife and my contracts.

 I think this was an honorable way to end our relationship.  He got paid a little cash and was happy at the end of our conversation.  In fact, he invited me to come back if I ever wanted to.  I am happy because I didn't have this go to court to come to an end.  And my new master is happy because she really respects my old grandmaster and wants to make sure he doesn't blame her for breaking my contract early.

 Great advice, all of you.  This worked out well.  The lesson I learned is always try to treate people with honor, even if they are dishonorable.  And look at your state laws!  There are a lot of laws out there to protect you.


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## Sapper6 (Sep 10, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> Kwangjang, you are the MAN!  After reading your post, I did a google for illinois martial arts contracts.  As it turns out, contracts for services greater then 2 years are illegal in the state of illinois.  So my wife and I DID have illegal contracts.



ah man, my feelings are hurt now :waah:  i thought i had the idea first...oh well, glad you found a happy ending to it.

 :asian:


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

good to hear there was a satisfactory illusion...well...let this be a lesson to those out there...contracts may not necessarily bad...but do your homework before you commit to anything


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## SmellyMonkey (Sep 10, 2004)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> ah man, my feelings are hurt now :waah: i thought i had the idea first...oh well, glad you found a happy ending to it.
> 
> :asian:


You are correct!  Thank you also for your advice!  :asian:


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