# Agnostics?



## Josh (Feb 10, 2007)

Any fellow Agnostic Martial Artists ???

Just checking to see if I am alone in that area here.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 11, 2007)

Atheist here.  I don't wuss out with agnosticism. JK! 

That is one of the things I appreciate about my art, American Kenpo, is the lack of supernatural or mystical elements.  I don't believe in God, what makes you think I am going to believe in mystical energy blasts or the guiding spirit of my Art's founder?


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## Flatlander (Feb 11, 2007)

I used to believe that I was atheist.  I never believed that I was agnostic.  I now believe something entirely different.


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## CoryKS (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't deny the possibility that I may be an agnostic, but I'm waiting for definitive proof.


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## Carol (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm a political agnostic, does that count?


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## Josh (Feb 12, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I'm a political agnostic, does that count?



As am I


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2007)

Joshua said:


> As am I


 
Woot!!   

:highfive:


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## Josh (Feb 12, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> Atheist here.  I don't wuss out with agnosticism. JK!
> 
> That is one of the things I appreciate about my art, American Kenpo, is the lack of supernatural or mystical elements.  I don't believe in God, what makes you think I am going to believe in mystical energy blasts or the guiding spirit of my Art's founder?



See, while I respect your point of view.. I can't go that far. I'm a soft agnostic. I believe that God might be out there. I just don't know how, or in what form. I believe that trying to understand him/her/it is pointless. The Bible, Torah, Koran (sp?) never did anything for me because if you actually read any of them.. they have some bad messages. For example my name is Joshua.. but I would not want to be like the biblical Joshua... who killed pretty much everyone in his way to the promised land.
also, "The way, the truth and the life" never worked for me either.

 I'll make my own way, my own truths and my own life... thanks.

I think that organized religion and evengelicals(sp) especially are the worst.

However, I think all faiths have something to offer. I just don't believe anyone walking this earth has it all right about God 100%.

and I sure as hell (pun intended) don't believe in a God that would let his children suffer in a pit of fire forever and ever.

I keep an open mind though. Who knows, someday I might change my mind

for now, I'll keep my feet on the ground and take from each belief system that which I find useful....


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## Josh (Feb 12, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Woot!!
> 
> :highfive:



Horay! Another New England NON liberal!
but then again we're.. not quite the right wingers either!

cheers!


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## Cirdan (Feb 12, 2007)

I am a sceptic with an open mind. I suppose that makes me an agnostic :ultracool


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## Andrew Green (Feb 12, 2007)

I am an atheist, my brain is not capable of accepting the idea of a God.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't have a name for what I believe.  I guess it could be agnostic.  I don't believe in a god, heaven or hell, but I think there are multiple levels of existence in the cosmos.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 12, 2007)

Joshua said:


> See, while I respect your point of view.. I can't go that far. I'm a soft agnostic. I believe that God might be out there.



Hey that's cool, to each their own.  For me, after reading and studying all the arguments, I realized that there is no real evidence that anything you might call a God exists.  As a trained scientist, I couldn't make a special exception for my religious beliefs when I refused to accept propositions without evidence in every other aspect of my life.  Of course, I really knew there wasn't any evidence when I still called myself a Christian, but eventually I realized I just didn't have that transcendent faith without some reason to believe.


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## Josh (Feb 12, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> Hey that's cool, to each their own.  For me, after reading and studying all the arguments, I realized that there is no real evidence that anything you might call a God exists.  As a trained scientist, I couldn't make a special exception for my religious beliefs when I refused to accept propositions without evidence in every other aspect of my life.  Of course, I really knew there wasn't any evidence when I still called myself a Christian, but eventually I realized I just didn't have that transcendent faith without some reason to believe.



I can understand that point of view. I resepct that.


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## terryl965 (Feb 12, 2007)

Well I know two things I believe in Me and who-ever is greater than me, if that be GOD let it be if that be the ice cream man let it be we will all find out one way or another in the end.


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Well I know two things I believe in Me and who-ever is greater than me, if that be GOD let it be if that be the ice cream man let it be we will all find out one way or another in the end.


 
Hmmm....could bring a totally different dimension to Van Halen's "Ice Cream Man"


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 12, 2007)

*Mod Note

Thread moved to the Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts Forum.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator*


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## Josh (Feb 12, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Well I know two things I believe in Me and who-ever is greater than me, if that be GOD let it be if that be the ice cream man let it be we will all find out one way or another in the end.



I hope it's the ice cream man. That would be interesting.


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## CoryKS (Feb 12, 2007)

What I believe right now is that Empty Hands' parakeet is making me nervous staring like that.


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## Josh (Feb 12, 2007)

ha, I think it's kinda cool actually.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 12, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> What I believe right now is that Empty Hands' parakeet is making me nervous staring like that.



You should be nervous.  She looks cute like that to lull you in, and then slakes her thirst...FOR BLOOD! -vampfeed-


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2007)

My cat is staring at the parakeet right now


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## terryl965 (Feb 12, 2007)

Joshua said:


> I hope it's the ice cream man. That would be interesting.


 

yes it would be


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## Empty Hands (Feb 12, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> My cat is staring at the parakeet right now



She also has our cats living in mortal terror of her.  If they get too close, she fluffs out all her feathers, opens her beak as wide as it will go, and charges straight at 'em.  The cats scatter. :lol:  Perhaps a new Kung Fu style - Striking Cockatoo? :ninja:


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## Amazon (Feb 12, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> What I believe right now is that Empty Hands' parakeet is making me nervous staring like that.



You should be nervous.  Cause she's a Cockatoo ('bout 20 times bigger than a parakeet).  

And she currently loves Mommy more than Daddy, which is fantasic because I got sick of bloody hands.  :ultracool


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## Amazon (Feb 12, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> She also has our cats living in mortal terror of her.  If they get too close, she fluffs out all her feathers, opens her beak as wide as it will go, and charges straight at 'em.  The cats scatter. :lol:  Perhaps a new Kung Fu style - Striking Cockatoo? :ninja:



Not a bad idea - there would be no defense for it.  It's pretty hard bust out Delayed Sword on a parrot...


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## Sukerkin (Feb 13, 2007)

Altho' I was brought up in a strictly religious environment and have a definite 'spiritual' side (if I can call it that) I am most assuredly a fully paid-up member of the Agnostic camp.

As has been stated above, one reason for wanting a little supporting evidence for the existence of a creator is that all those devout individuals who proselytise in his/her name do seem to spend an awful lot of time killing each other - not a terribly good advert.

Also pivotal for my position is the explaination of how life came about.  Neither the religionists nor the scientists have what are for me convincing arguments.  So until proof comes along, I keep an open mind and keep listening to and reading about relevant ideas that crop up.

Maybe we don't have that long to wait for an answer given that many mystical/occult/tribal calendars and legends seem to point to 2012 as an important year .


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## Josh (Feb 13, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Maybe we don't have that long to wait for an answer given that many mystical/occult/tribal calendars and legends seem to point to 2012 as an important year .



hmm, I wonder what is so important about 2012?
AH, im not too worried. The world was supposed to end in 2000 too.


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## CoryKS (Feb 13, 2007)

Amazon said:


> You should be nervous. Cause she's a Cockatoo ('bout 20 times bigger than a parakeet).
> 
> And she currently loves Mommy more than Daddy, which is fantasic because I got sick of bloody hands. :ultracool


 
Sorry!  Couldn't see the thingy on her head.


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## heretic888 (Feb 13, 2007)

Joshua said:


> Any fellow Agnostic Martial Artists ???
> 
> Just checking to see if I am alone in that area here.


 
Tell you what. You define "God" for me and I'll tell you if I believe in him/her/it.


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## heretic888 (Feb 13, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Also pivotal for my position is the explaination of how life came about. Neither the religionists nor the scientists have what are for me convincing arguments. So until proof comes along, I keep an open mind and keep listening to and reading about relevant ideas that crop up.


 
I should point out that a "[for me] convincing argument" and "proof" aren't the same thing. The evidence is there, in the form of the Urey-Miller experiments and similar studies. That you refuse to accept the evidence is your choice, of course, but it doesn't mean "proof" isn't already there.

Personally, I am much more interested in what happened before the Big Bang (i.e., "before" time itself). That is something science actually can't answer at this point. 



Sukerkin said:


> Maybe we don't have that long to wait for an answer given that many mystical/occult/tribal calendars and legends seem to point to 2012 as an important year .



That "many" is less impressive when you realize that they all take them from the Aztecs. That's like arguing "many" religious groups think the number 666 is important. Well, yeah, but it all comes from one book (i.e., the Revelation of John). So, really, there's only one source for both speculations.

Laterz.


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## Josh (Feb 13, 2007)

heretic888 said:


> Tell you what. You define "God" for me and I'll tell you if I believe in him/her/it.



God, as in a higher power. Not nessicarily the Christian God. A creator of all life on earth and the universe, or more than one God responsible for the same thing.


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## heretic888 (Feb 13, 2007)

Joshua said:


> God, as in a higher power. Not nessicarily the Christian God. A creator of all life on earth and the universe, or more than one God responsible for the same thing.


 
Sorry, Joshua, but this definition is too vague for me to answer your question satisfactorily. I can think of about five things your definition could feasibly apply to, perhaps the most interesting of which is an advanced alien civilization (whether in this universe or another).

I also don't think the "Christian God" is a helpful term, either. The "God" that mystics like St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, or St. Gregory of Nyssa had in mind is definitely not the same "God" evangelicals like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have in mind. Yet, they're all "Christian".

Laterz.


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## Josh (Feb 13, 2007)

I'm sorry that it was too vauge.


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## Josh (Feb 13, 2007)

heretic888 said:


> Sorry, Joshua, but this definition is too vague for me to answer your question satisfactorily. I can think of about five things your definition could feasibly apply to, perhaps the most interesting of which is an advanced alien civilization (whether in this universe or another).
> 
> 
> Laterz.



Aliens notwishstanding ALL definitions are okay to go by. Any spiritual being that created the earth and the universe.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I am an atheist, my brain is not capable of accepting the idea of a God.


Pray


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## heretic888 (Feb 14, 2007)

Joshua said:


> Aliens notwishstanding ALL definitions are okay to go by. Any spiritual being that created the earth and the universe.


 
Well, this definition still begs the question, so you'll have to forgive my Socratic method for the time being.

What is a "spiritual" being as opposed to a "non-spiritual" being? How do we know this "God" or "Creator" is "spiritual" as opposed to "non-spiritual"?? Are there any other "spiritual" beings besides "God"?? 

While I can respect agnositicism, I think it is important to figure out just what exactly you are agnostic about in the first place.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 14, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Pray




For what?  To whom?

This makes no sense, praying to a non-existant being to remove my current sense of logic and rationality, so that I may believe in something I don't think exists?

Kind of like writing a letter to Santa when your 30, figuring if you right enough letters, he might suddenly exist again isn't it?

Sorry, but I have no problem with people believing in God, providing they still keep there head (ex - Not rejecting science in favour of religious doctrine, I'd rather not go back to the dark ages), but it is most definately not for me.

I am, and probably always will be a atheist, my belief in God dissapearred shortly after the tooth fairy and Santa.


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## Josh (Feb 14, 2007)

heretic888 said:


> Well, this definition still begs the question, so you'll have to forgive my Socratic method for the time being.
> 
> What is a "spiritual" being as opposed to a "non-spiritual" being? How do we know this "God" or "Creator" is "spiritual" as opposed to "non-spiritual"?? Are there any other "spiritual" beings besides "God"??
> 
> While I can respect agnositicism, I think it is important to figure out just what exactly you are agnostic about in the first place.



you're making something more complex than it has to be. I respect that you want to look deeply into things, but sometimes peoples beliefs, or non beliefs are simple. I know what im agnostic about, and exactly why. I've told you and you insist on coming up with definitions for everything. soon you will say, "what exactly do you mean by, air".. and to that I would say that which we breathe. yesss that could mean smog in LA, but we all have a pretty good idea what people mean when they say "air"

but i'm all for continuing this for purpose of conversation. by spiritual, I mean that which is not natural on earth. any greater being that which I cannot see or measure.
if you need me to further define what I believe, I will.

always respectfully,

Josh


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2007)

Based on my limited experience I am not sure if I am or am not an agnostic 

Sorry, couldn't resist

If you mean are there any agnostics based on the definition being 
"A person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study"

I guess I am a martial arts agnostic, I do not believe anyone can know it all.


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## Josh (Feb 14, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Based on my limited experience I am not sure if I am or am not an agnostic
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist
> 
> ...




yes, there are different levels of it. :]


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## Makalakumu (Feb 14, 2007)

I am an Athiest with a caveat...and that is, if I were to place a large bet that there are no gods or no God, I would do it.  Of course, I know that I could lose, but that is par for the course.

Why do I believe that?  The answer to that question is long and complex, but it revolves around science and it revolves around humanities insignificant place in this universe.


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## Flatlander (Feb 14, 2007)

heretic888 said:


> Personally, I am much more interested in what happened before the Big Bang (i.e., "before" time itself). That is something science actually can't answer at this point.


This is a non-sensical question.  There cannot be a before, as to define "before" requires a point on a timeline.  Without spacetime, this cannot be reasonably defined.  However, you already know that.

So, perhaps, the answer lies here:  There is no before, as there simply always was.  

I have a theory.  My theory throws out the duality of beginning and end.  I propose that black holes and the big bang are simply the same 'event' from different frames of reference.

Please note that you heard it here first.  Nobody else is proposing this yet, to the best of my knowledge.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 14, 2007)

Nope, I've heard that before. 

Anyways, the question may or may not make sense, we can't even answer that.  There could have been something before the big bang, we really don't know


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2007)

Perhaps the real question is this...is there some little anthropromorphic ethereal dicator that is responsible for the creation of this insignificant race on this insignificant planet and who truly feels that we are "special" in any sense of the word, when compared to the truly and awesomely vast beyond comparison universe?

No.

Physics is showing that there probably isn't even a Prime Mover.  Even deism is dying a slow death.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 15, 2007)

Hi *Upnorthkyosa*

A nice concise restating of the question in a form that I often use when discoursing the existence/non-existence of God with my father :tup:.

As an aside, could you elaborate a little on your last statement?


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Hi *Upnorthkyosa*
> 
> A nice concise restating of the question in a form that I often use when discoursing the existence/non-existence of God with my father :tup:.
> 
> As an aside, could you elaborate a little on your last statement?


 
To sum it up breifly, one of the last bastions of the theist is the view that God is the ultimate knob twiddler who set the dials of the constants so that it produced our universe.  Various multiverse theories are showing that these numbers aren't so special and that we just happen to live in a universe the produces us.  These theories are being supported by various conformations of Young's Double Slit experiment.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 16, 2007)

Ah, I see what you intended now - cheers :raises glass:


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## LawDog (Feb 16, 2007)

Timeline:
Universal time is constant, no beginning, no ending. A timeline began with the formation of the first trace energy. It will end when the last trace energy disappears.


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 13, 2007)

I am a former wrestler who is jewish and plays Judo simply for health, fitness, fun, and socialization.  While it is a method of ethical training, it is not a religion, so I don't see how religion is a factor in training, the spiritual/ethical benefits of the martial arts apply to everyone, regardless of what they say they believe in.  

Just my opinion.


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## qi-tah (May 14, 2007)

Nothing is known or can be known about the existence or nature of something that we cannot define? Now there's something i can believe in!


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## qi-tah (May 25, 2007)

Saw a cool bumper sticker the other day that made me smile - thought i'd share it around:

"Millitant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either"


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## SageGhost83 (Jun 3, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I don't have a name for what I believe. I guess it could be agnostic. I don't believe in a god, heaven or hell, but I think there are multiple levels of existence in the cosmos.


 
I'll second that. I am more of a spiritualist or something. I believe in spirits and higher levels of existence, but I don't believe that a single, personafied being is at the center of it all. I think that "god" is all people and all things as one. I believe that we are all like sparks to a flame.


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