# What I learned after 4 months of punching the heavy bag



## JowGaWolf (Jun 12, 2022)

I had to stop hitting the heavy bag hard after 4 months of hitting it without gloves.  It turns how that as I got stronger I was able to penetrate the bag more which is good in a sense but bad in terms of conditioning.  When I hit the bag now, it wraps around my fist instead of just landing on the knuckles that I'm striking with.  The wrap around damages the other knuckles  that I don't use when doing linear or hook punches.  

The picture below looks good, but take note of how the bag wraps around the fist.  This is brutal on the other knuckles.  Eventually those knuckles would be conditioned as well but there's now real reason to have conditioned and deformed knuckles. The human body gives much more than a bag does.  I still hit the heavy bag, but I don't hit it hard anymore. I also try to punch on the harder spots that are more compact.  Hitting the small areas of the bag are just brutal for me when punching my hardest.





Now this training tool makes more sense to me and I find myself wanting to punch something that doesn't give as much as the bags are giving.




This is one of the strangest things I've experienced in my training.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I had to stop hitting the heavy bag hard after 4 months of hitting it without gloves.  It turns how that as I got stronger I was able to penetrate the bag more which is good in a sense but bad in terms of conditioning.  When I hit the bag now, it wraps around my fist instead of just landing on the knuckles that I'm striking with.  The wrap around damages the other knuckles  that I don't use when doing linear or hook punches.
> 
> The picture below looks good, but take note of how the bag wraps around the fist.  This is brutal on the other knuckles.  Eventually those knuckles would be conditioned as well but there's now real reason to have conditioned and deformed knuckles. The human body gives much more than a bag does.  I still hit the heavy bag, but I don't hit it hard anymore. I also try to punch on the harder spots that are more compact.  Hitting the small areas of the bag are just brutal for me when punching my hardest.
> View attachment 28535
> ...


How often are your sessions?
How heavy is your bag?


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 12, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> How often are your sessions?
> How heavy is your bag?


My sessions were about 45 minutes.  I'm guessing the heavy bags are close to 100lbs. It may be more, but not by much.   Below is breakdown.
1. 10 minutes of soft tapping of the knuckles on the bag.  This was done with various strikes, Linear punches, back fists, hooks.  1 minute for each, this is a preparation exercise.   With 15 second rest between rounds

2. 10 minutes of low impact striking.  With 15 second rest between rounds

3. 20 minutes of high impact striking but with fewer reps with a focus of driving power.

4. 5 minutes of heavy combos.   With 1 minute rest between rounds.

#1 and #2  are done 5 days a week.  I still do these or our lose my knuckle conditioning.
#3 and #4  were done every other day.

The total time of this will vary depending on how soon I bruise and the amount of rest that I take between striking.  This is a picture of where I train. The heavy bags that I hit are along the wall..  I can't see them being more than 135lbs if that.  I'll have to ask the gym for an accurate number.  They are heavy but I smash them into the wall with front kicks so either I'm underestimating my kicking power or the bags are aren't too much more than 100 lbs.  I've punched and kicked heavy bags that felt like packed sand.  These aren't those types of bags.

Not me in the picture.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> My sessions were about 45 minutes.  I'm guessing the heavy bags are close to 100lbs. It may be more, but not by much.   Below is breakdown.
> 1. 10 minutes of soft tapping of the knuckles on the bag.  This was done with various strikes, Linear punches, back fists, hooks.  1 minute for each, this is a preparation exercise.   With 15 second rest between rounds
> 
> 2. 10 minutes of low impact striking.  With 15 second rest between rounds
> ...


I wonder if you are getting injured because you are doing too much.  I train in the heavy bag without gloves or wraps, but only once a week.  You are training up to five times a week.  Without the protection, that might just be too often.  You gotta give the hands and wrists time to heal.  Without wraps and gloves you cannot train with the same intensity as if you are training for a competition with wraps and gloves and nine rounds.  You can still hit the bag hard but not as frequently.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 13, 2022)

Great to hear from ya JGW, was literally wondering recently how you've been travelling.

Yes that is an odd phenomenon! I would agree with Flying Crane, it may simply be too much volume/frequency. But just a thought.

And yesss, I'd love to get a makiwara one day!


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 13, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I wonder if you are getting injured because you are doing too much.  I train in the heavy bag without gloves or wraps, but only once a week.  You are training up to five times a week.  Without the protection, that might just be too often.  You gotta give the hands and wrists time to heal.  Without wraps and gloves you cannot train with the same intensity as if you are training for a competition with wraps and gloves and nine rounds.  You can still hit the bag hard but not as frequently.


The knuckles that I strike with arent the ones being damaged its only one knuckle and the damage is to the side of it, which I know is because of the bag wrapping around my fist. it only happens when I hit areas on the bag that give alot when I hit it hard.

The frequency wasn't always at this level. It took a little more than 4 months to get to this level.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I had to stop hitting the heavy bag hard after 4 months of hitting it without gloves.  It turns how that as I got stronger I was able to penetrate the bag more which is good in a sense but bad in terms of conditioning.  When I hit the bag now, it wraps around my fist instead of just landing on the knuckles that I'm striking with.  The wrap around damages the other knuckles  that I don't use when doing linear or hook punches.
> 
> The picture below looks good, but take note of how the bag wraps around the fist.  This is brutal on the other knuckles.  Eventually those knuckles would be conditioned as well but there's now real reason to have conditioned and deformed knuckles. The human body gives much more than a bag does.  I still hit the heavy bag, but I don't hit it hard anymore. I also try to punch on the harder spots that are more compact.  Hitting the small areas of the bag are just brutal for me when punching my hardest.
> View attachment 28535
> ...


Been wondering where you have been…


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Been wondering where you have been…


Training hard until I tore my calf muscle a week ago.  Now I'm trying to rehab the muscle.  I pushed myself too hard and paid the price.


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## geezer (Jun 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not me in the picture.
> 
> View attachment 28536


Not _you?_ Good to know, cuz I think the pink gloves look really dumb.

...BTW, good to see you posting again!


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The knuckles that I strike with arent the ones being damaged its only one knuckle and the damage is to the side of it, which I know is because of the bag wrapping around my fist. it only happens when I hit areas on the bag that give alot when I hit it hard.
> 
> The frequency wasn't always at this level. It took a little more than 4 months to get to this level.


What kind of damage is it?  Is it abrasions that leave the skin raw?  It sounds like it’s not an impact injury that is jamming the joints?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Training hard until I tore my calf muscle a week ago.  Now I'm trying to rehab the muscle.  I pushed myself too hard and paid the price.


We train MA so we won't get hurt in fighting. If we get hurt in training, that defeat the purpose of training. To train MA is important. To know how to protect yourself in training is also important.

In another thread, someone said that TKD high kick can hurt your hip joint and spine. I train high kick so my hip joint and spine can be stretched and relaxed.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 13, 2022)

That "wrap around" can rip your other knuckles (and the thin skin between them) upon hitting the soft spots on the bag.  But smacking the heavy bag feels (and sounds) sooo good and is a great power and endurance developer.  

The makiwara is an entirely different animal and yields its own benefits.  The main difference is the amount of penetration.  As can be seen in the photo JowGaWolf included, this can be four or five inches into the heavy bag, plus moving the entire bag itself.  So, the muscles are pushing that compliant resistance thru space.

In contrast, penetration with the makiwara is limited to about a half inch, maybe a little more on some, resulting in the muscles' power meeting and, for a tiny fraction of a second, resisting against a practically immovable object. This, I think, builds a different kind of strength.  It's a more focused kind of practice, concentrating on tensing at the moment of impact (_kime_), rather than driving thru the target, compared to the heavy bag.  I would say it's more nuanced.

I'll also say the makiwara is more unidimensional than the heavy bag, usually working with single strikes and 0-1 steps (though a second strike or step can be done as well), as compared to the heavy bag where combos, footwork and angles are more the norm.

So, two kinds of practice, physically and mentally; both worth doing, IMO.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 14, 2022)

geezer said:


> Not _you?_ Good to know, cuz I think the pink gloves look really dumb.
> 
> ...BTW, good to see you posting again!


Sigh... Now I have learn to "be on my toes again." lol


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What kind of damage is it?  Is it abrasions that leave the skin raw?  It sounds like it’s not an impact injury that is jamming the joints?


It's abrasive but not much movement and it only happens with my hardest hits.  As my fist sinks into the bag it tightens around my fist and it's bruising the side of the middle finger knuckle.  The joint that is affected is the Proximal interphalangeal joint.  It only happens on my right hand because my right hand hits harder than my left.  I haven't hit the bag in about a month and 1 week now.   I hyper extended my left thumb and I keep injuring it when I just do the daily stuff around the house.  For example,  I accidently put weight on it when getting out of a chair so I'm back on the injury list for that.  I originally hurt my thumb doing some landscaping.





I'm satisfied with not being able to hit the bag my hardest.  It's the same solution of hitting harder heavy bag.  So it's no big lost.  I just wish I knew ahead of time so that I could avoid the softer parts of the bag and avoid injury.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 14, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We train MA so we won't get hurt in fighting. If we get hurt in training, that defeat the purpose of training. To train MA is important. To know how to protect yourself in training is also important.


Injuries are bound to happen in training. The key is to keep them at minimal.  Me breaking my wrist or fingers on a heavy bag would be a unacceptable training.  



Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread, someone said that TKD high kick can hurt your hip joint and spine. I train high kick so my hip joint and spine can be stretched and relaxed.


The MMA guy that trains around the same time I train used to train TKD.  He has hip problems, he's younger than me.  My biggest problem is that I forget that I'm not 20 years old.  I like that problem better than hip problems.  Speaking of bad hips.  My hip problems from my car accident are unnoticeable now.  The only time my hip bother's me is when I sit too long in certain chairs.   Other than that mobility is good, not the best but there's still room for improvement and that's a good thing.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's abrasive but not much movement and it only happens with my hardest hits.  As my fist sinks into the bag it tightens around my fist and it's bruising the side of the middle finger knuckle.  The joint that is affected is the Proximal interphalangeal joint.  It only happens on my right hand because my right hand hits harder than my left.  I haven't hit the bag in about a month and 1 week now.   I hyper extended my left thumb and I keep injuring it when I just do the daily stuff around the house.  For example,  I accidently put weight on it when getting out of a chair so I'm back on the injury list for that.  I originally hurt my thumb doing some landscaping.
> View attachment 28538
> 
> 
> I'm satisfied with not being able to hit the bag my hardest.  It's the same solution of hitting harder heavy bag.  So it's no big lost.  I just wish I knew ahead of time so that I could avoid the softer parts of the bag and avoid injury.


It sounds to me like two things happening:

1) perhaps your structure and placement of the punch could be a bit better, to keep that knuckle from coming into contact with the bag.

2) I still think this may be an issue of overtraining.  I hit the bag without gloves and wraps, and I never have injuries.  I hit pretty hard, too.  My fist does sink in.  However, I only do it once a week.  In my opinion, that is plenty for my purposes.  I am not interested in preparing for a full-contact competition (both because I am simply not interested, and because at age 51, that ship has kinda sailed already).  At once a week, I have developed and maintained the ability to reliably hit hard, without the support of gloves and wraps, and without injury, so that if I ever need to do so on the street, I have no fear of it.  If I felt more ambitious about it, I could increase the frequency to twice a week and I suspect it would not be a problem.  

However, at nearly every day I bet you are accumulating little injuries and abuse of your knuckles that may be adding up.  You aren’t giving your hands time to recover.  With that frequency I think you need to be doing at least some of it with wraps and gloves to protect from those injuries, and allow your hands to recover.  But really, time off is the best way to ensure that recovery.  I don’t want to use wraps and gloves because I want to feel confident in my ability to punch without that protection.  You can’t train with the same level of intensity and frequency without that protection, as you could with that protection.  It’s a trade-off.  Train smart.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I had to stop hitting the heavy bag hard after 4 months of hitting it without gloves.  It turns how that as I got stronger I was able to penetrate the bag more which is good in a sense but bad in terms of conditioning.  When I hit the bag now, it wraps around my fist instead of just landing on the knuckles that I'm striking with.  The wrap around damages the other knuckles  that I don't use when doing linear or hook punches.
> 
> The picture below looks good, but take note of how the bag wraps around the fist.  This is brutal on the other knuckles.  Eventually those knuckles would be conditioned as well but there's now real reason to have conditioned and deformed knuckles. The human body gives much more than a bag does.  I still hit the heavy bag, but I don't hit it hard anymore. I also try to punch on the harder spots that are more compact.  Hitting the small areas of the bag are just brutal for me when punching my hardest.
> View attachment 28535
> ...


What kind of bag are you using? Get a harder bag!!

I know there are a lot of bags that are very soft for whatever reason, I hate that kind of bags. It's like punching air, it dent in like 5 to 6".

I use EverLast, one 70lbs white canvas bag and one 100lbs leather bags. They are quite hard. I stuffed them a little more using stuffs from the old bags I broke to make it harder. So if you get a hard bag and still not hard enough, stuff it to make it harder.

Like I said before, I punch 6X6 wood poles 20times with the first 2 big knuckles and 20times with the small knuckles. I never have issue with bones and joints. In fact I just had an x-ray, my bones are perfect. I have been doing this twice a week for years and punching bare knuckles for decades.

My problem is more the skin. I have chronic scabs on my knuckles that won't heel, just starting to happen this year. Something about old age that make the skin change.

If you can make a big dent on those bags I have, maybe you should practice less and you are punching very hard, no need to practice that hard anymore!!! Remember you linked me a youtube of some guy punching, he punch quite hard. That's the 70lbs white canvas bag I have. You can see he only made like 2" dent into the bag. That's my experience. If you can make 6 to 7" into that bag, you must be a super puncher.


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## jayoliver00 (Jun 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I had to stop hitting the heavy bag hard after 4 months of hitting it without gloves.  It turns how that as I got stronger I was able to penetrate the bag more which is good in a sense but bad in terms of conditioning.  When I hit the bag now, it wraps around my fist instead of just landing on the knuckles that I'm striking with.  The wrap around damages the other knuckles  that I don't use when doing linear or hook punches.
> 
> The picture below looks good, but take note of how the bag wraps around the fist.  This is brutal on the other knuckles.  Eventually those knuckles would be conditioned as well but there's now real reason to have conditioned and deformed knuckles. The human body gives much more than a bag does.  I still hit the heavy bag, but I don't hit it hard anymore. I also try to punch on the harder spots that are more compact.  Hitting the small areas of the bag are just brutal for me when punching my hardest.
> View attachment 28535
> ...



Man, why w/o gloves?  IMO, doing that is just hocus pocus MA. Yeah you get good at bare knuckles punching, but why?  Good reasons for this kind of training would be (that I can think of):  wanting to be a BKFC fighter, need to streetfight about once every 6 months due to living in a bad area, or about to go to prison.  And it looks cool to punch a tree. 

And this is coming from myself, who does all kinds of Larping, including Survivalist EOTW fantasies and prepping with guns, ammo & canned goods...that are really just, fantasies (so far).


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 16, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> What kind of bag are you using? Get a harder bag!!
> 
> I know there are a lot of bags that are very soft for whatever reason, I hate that kind of bags. It's like punching air, it dent in like 5 to 6".


I'm not sure, it's one that the gym got.  I'm going to speak with them to see if they can prep a harder bag for me.  Most of the people who use the bags don't know how to punch with correct technique.  And I'm not being "kung fu arrogant" when I say this.  They literally have really bad basics simply because no one has shown them how to correctly make a fist and punch..  They normally punch the bag 5 times and then walk away.  My guess is that they hurt their hands in the process.  Because of this these bags are what I would probably put a first time puncher on.  Most use the boxing gloves and the punching becomes worse.   The speed bag was like that until a few weeks ago.  We tore the first speed bag up, it was soft like a sponge.  Now it's packed the way that it should be and it feels much better too.

But for the heavy bags.  They should have at least 2 for the experienced members.  I'll put it this way.  It doesn't take much for me to move the bag.  I kick the bag into the wall all the time, so I have to put something in between the wall the bag.  This causes me to get more feedback than I sometimes enjoy but it keeps from breaking the window and stops the bag from putting holes into the wall.


Alan0354 said:


> If you can make a big dent on those bags I have, maybe you should practice less and you are punching very hard, no need to practice that hard anymore!!!


Yeah I'm going to follow the advice that was given here and lower the power level of my strikes. I will still will ask the gym if they can pack one of the bags better So I can have only one row of knuckles digging into the bag per punch.


jayoliver00 said:


> Man, why w/o gloves?  IMO, doing that is just hocus pocus MA. Yeah you get good at bare knuckles punching, but why?  Good reasons for this kind of training would be (that I can think of):  wanting to be a BKFC fighter, need to streetfight about once every 6 months due to living in a bad area, or about to go to prison.  And it looks cool to punch a tree.
> 
> And this is coming from myself, who does all kinds of Larping, including Survivalist EOTW fantasies and prepping with guns, ammo & canned goods...that are really just, fantasies (so far).


I've always punched without gloves. I just believe that it's good to condition the body for the impact that the body may take.  The thing about conditioning is that it takes a long time to reach that point.  I can't wait until the last minute to decide that I need conditioning. 

 The other thing that I like is that it really teaches a person to be selective with punches and makes a person more aware of punching structure.  For example, people who hit with gloves are highly likely to swipe punches instead of punching directly into the target and returning the fist directly from the target.   

I wouldn't recommend punching trees. The hardest thing I've punched is a punching bag. My accuracy is also good because I can't  afford to just be swinging and hope I hit something.

There are other benefits from punching without gloves when done correctly.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure, it's one that the gym got.  I'm going to speak with them to see if they can prep a harder bag for me.  Most of the people who use the bags don't know how to punch with correct technique.  And I'm not being "kung fu arrogant" when I say this.  They literally have really bad basics simply because no one has shown them how to correctly make a fist and punch..  They normally punch the bag 5 times and then walk away.  My guess is that they hurt their hands in the process.  Because of this these bags are what I would probably put a first time puncher on.  Most use the boxing gloves and the punching becomes worse.   The speed bag was like that until a few weeks ago.  We tore the first speed bag up, it was soft like a sponge.  Now it's packed the way that it should be and it feels much better too.
> 
> But for the heavy bags.  They should have at least 2 for the experienced members.  I'll put it this way.  It doesn't take much for me to move the bag.  I kick the bag into the wall all the time, so I have to put something in between the wall the bag.  This causes me to get more feedback than I sometimes enjoy but it keeps from breaking the window and stops the bag from putting holes into the wall.
> 
> ...


Now I see, you are using the bag in the gym. EXACTLY the same in my case when I was talking about bags that are soft. It was in the gym also. Why people want soft bags? The only reason is they are for boxing where people wear huge gloves.

In my case, it's even worst, they gym hang the bag on a stand and use weights to hold it in place. The bag cannot swing freely. Can't exactly do kicking as the bag got nowhere to swing. You might really want to consider hanging bags at home and not relying on the gym. There must be people that prefer soft bags.

 I am looking at the RED 80lbs Everlast. I had a chance to punch on one in my friend's house, it's hard enough and the covering seems strong enough to hold up. I never have problem with EverLast canvas and leather bags, they last about 3 years for me. Do NOT get Toughware, I bought the black color that looks like cloth/canvas, I broke two new ones within 2 weeks, I thought the first one was defective, I went and exchanged. But the second one was exactly the same. I returned both. Do NOT get vinyl cover, they don't last. I notice the gym changed quite a few bags at the time, they kept buying those vinyl or some plastic that is a little shinny. Some are even worst, they drag on the floor.

I have to buy a new bag soon, The white 70lbs got enough duck tape on it already, it's ready to go any time. I am seriously considering the red 80lbs one and take my chance. Too bad they don't sell the white canvas one anymore. Not all canvas bags are the same, the Everlast canvas is very thick and rough.

Yes, I agree totally to punch bare hands. You don't get a feel using gloves. I can literally punch without holding the fist with gloves and won't matter. Try punch bare hands without holding a fist, that won't end good. I punch bare hands for decades for the better or the worst. I like the feel of the punch.

Against conventional believes, I never hurt my hands, wrist punch bare handed. In case people question whether that will damage the hands in long run. I can tell people I am a guitarist, I can still run high speed picking after decades of punching. Only thing that really hurt my hands was the IRON PALM training that I regret even getting into. I told that story a few times here already. My problem is the skin on the knuckles that don't heal.

Good luck, hang your own bags at home. When you break the bag, do NOT dump it away, you might need those stuffings to stuff the new bag. Particularly the top part, it's always soft. The harder you stuff, the longer they last before it cracks.



EDIT: I kept talking about canvas bags ONLY because that's the one that need to be changed for me. The EverLast LEATHER bags are good too. It's just a lot more expensive. My 100lbs is leather, I have to tape it up, but no where in sad condition as my canvas one. If you don't want to tear the skin on the knuckles, go with the leather bag. It's better for the skin.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 16, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> What kind of bag are you using? Get a harder bag!!
> 
> I know there are a lot of bags that are very soft for whatever reason, I hate that kind of bags. It's like punching air, it dent in like 5 to 6".


I'm not sure, it's one that the gym got.  I'm going to speak with them to see if they can prep a harder bag for me.  Most of the people who use the bags don't know how to punch with correct technique.  And I'm not being "kung fu arrogant" when I say this.  They literally have really bad basics simply because no one has shown them how to correctly make a fist and punch..  They normally punch the bag 5 times and then walk away.  My guess is that they hurt their hands in the process.  Because of this these bags are what I would probably put a first time puncher on.  Most use the boxing gloves and the punching becomes worse.   The speed bag was like that until a few weeks ago.  We tore the first speed bag up, it was soft like a sponge.  Now it's packed the way that it should be and it feels much better too.

But for the heavy bags.  They should have at least 2 for the experienced members.  I'll put it this way.  It doesn't take much for me to move the bag.  I kick the bag into the wall all the time, so I have to put something in between the wall the bag.  This causes me to get more feedback than I sometimes enjoy but it keeps from breaking the window and stops the bag from putting holes into the wall.


Alan0354 said:


> If you can make a big dent on those bags I have, maybe you should practice less and you are punching very hard, no need to practice that hard anymore!!!


Yeah I'm going to follow the advice that was given here and lower the power level of my strikes. I will still will ask the gym if they can pack one of the bags better So I can have only one row of knuckles digging into the bag per punch.


Alan0354 said:


> Now I see, you are using the bag in the gym. EXACTLY the same in my case when I was talking about bags that are soft. It was in the gym also. Why people want soft bags? The only reason is they are for boxing where people wear huge gloves.
> 
> In my case, it's even worst, they gym hang the bag on a stand and use weights to hold it in place. The bag cannot swing freely. Can't exactly do kicking as the bag got nowhere to swing. You might really want to consider hanging bags at home and not relying on the gym. There must be people that prefer soft bags.
> 
> ...


They only sell the white canvas bags empty.  You'll have to stuff it yourself unfortunately.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure, it's one that the gym got.  I'm going to speak with them to see if they can prep a harder bag for me.  Most of the people who use the bags don't know how to punch with correct technique.  And I'm not being "kung fu arrogant" when I say this.  They literally have really bad basics simply because no one has shown them how to correctly make a fist and punch..  They normally punch the bag 5 times and then walk away.  My guess is that they hurt their hands in the process.  Because of this these bags are what I would probably put a first time puncher on.  Most use the boxing gloves and the punching becomes worse.   The speed bag was like that until a few weeks ago.  We tore the first speed bag up, it was soft like a sponge.  Now it's packed the way that it should be and it feels much better too.
> 
> But for the heavy bags.  They should have at least 2 for the experienced members.  I'll put it this way.  It doesn't take much for me to move the bag.  I kick the bag into the wall all the time, so I have to put something in between the wall the bag.  This causes me to get more feedback than I sometimes enjoy but it keeps from breaking the window and stops the bag from putting holes into the wall.
> 
> ...


Go to a sporting goods store and check the bags out, Don't stuff the bags on your own. Not all canvas are the same, the Everlast canvas is very heavy. The picture of Bruce Lee punch a big dent on the canvas bag, I think it's for show, you don't know what stuffings was in it. I bet that bag won't even last a week if he punch it like that.

Check out the leather ones. I can't find the exact same bag in the Everlast site, so I cannot recommend anyone of those 100lbs leather bag. I can't even find the 80lbs Never Tear red bag that I want to buy either. Maybe I should go buy the one on display in Big-5 near me before it's sold out.

It's NOT easy to find a heavy bag, went through that over and over already.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 16, 2022)

Ive got an Everlast, weighs about 85 pounds and I believe it is a vinyl material.  So far it has held up well, I’ve had it for at least 15 years and it has spent a lot of time in the garage.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 16, 2022)

There are different "vinyl" material, I can't speak for any particular one. I just had vinyl bags before, it cracked fast. Attached is the picture of my 70lbs white canvas bag. The bottom is vinyl. You can see it ripped and have cracks even though I don't punch the bottom. I might be kicking 10 kicks to the bottom a week to practice groin kicks. Not heavy use at all. You can see how clean the canvas it this area to prove I don't kick or punch that area. The rest of the bag is all taped up already.







That's my experience with vinyl. This bag is about 5 years old only.


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## jks9199 (Jun 16, 2022)

A quick note... You can still condition your hands and not tear the skin up nearly as badly if you just use thin leather (or similar) gloves, like driving gloves or light work gloves.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 16, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> A quick note... You can still condition your hands and not tear the skin up nearly as badly if you just use thin leather (or similar) gloves, like driving gloves or light work gloves.


I don't know about very thin gloves, I have all sort of gloves, thick and thin, it's not the same.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 16, 2022)

The problem with canvas is that they tend to tear the skin of the knuckles if you have any lateral movement at all when you impact. Then you end up with scabs that take a while to heal and you can’t train with those, without tearing them open and bleeding on the bag.   Vinyl is much more forgiving.  I’ve had very very few problems of that sort.  It happens on occasion, and is very minor, but it’s a fraction of what was happening when I had a canvas bag.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 16, 2022)

I even want to go one step more extreme. Remember the scull is hard under a thin layer of skin. When in fight, opponent move, you might aim at the face(softer), but if he dug, you hit the skull. If your hand is not conditioned, you can break the knuckles.

I was playing with people in breaking boards. I worn a thin bag gloves and attempted to break 3 boards by punching. I broke  them......so was my big knuckle. That was like 17 years or so ago. After I recovered, I started practice punching 6X6 wood pole, starting very light, but I kept doing it for all these years. My knuckles are much stronger now.

Now, I am not doing it for show or anything. I don't punch and kick that hard. Only do it twice a week and 15 to 20 reps each.





BTW, you see my 70lbs canvas bag in the background, it was still newer, no black tape towards the bottom. The lower bag did not crack yet!!! This was recorded about a year ago.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> The problem with canvas is that they tend to tear the skin of the knuckles if you have any lateral movement at all when you impact. Then you end up with scabs that take a while to heal and you can’t train with those, without tearing them open and bleeding on the bag.   Vinyl is much more forgiving.  I’ve had very very few problems of that sort.  It happens on occasion, and is very minor, but it’s a fraction of what was happening when I had a canvas bag.


That's where leather shines. It's just more expensive, like double the price. They last at least as long as heavy canvas if not longer. They don't crack, you wear out holes. I use duck tape and it last quite well so far.

Don't get suede type, of leather. They don't last as well as the smooth leather ones. They tend to make holes easily!!! Don't ask me why, it's Everlast also.


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## MTguy (Jun 17, 2022)

Are you training at one of those Title type facilities where they have fitness classes all day that don't teach actual kickboxing techniques except if you hire a personal trainer? I mean you can come in and do your own work. I helped manage one and got fired for teaching my classes 'too much knowledge and it hurts personal training'. The last session I had with a guy, the steroid owner came and said we don't need you anymore and I said oh well, this is my last class here ( I had a real job lined up) and he stepped towards me and stopped. He knew I could kick his butt. he was a 10-0 professional boxer but that was years ago and he thought MMA wasn't real fighting.

What I was getting to is man, for longevity, you should not be hitting the heavy bag without at least hand wraps. Unless you are fighting a guy with a titanium head, you are likely to break your hands if you hit him on the skull anyway. I don't see any benefit to this training. Don Wilson, was a side kicker so he will probably have a hip replacement. Have you seen him fight thais in thailand? kind of embarassing though some of the kicks kept the thais off him for a minute. hand wraps and or MMA gloves would be better for your tendons and ligaments than bare fisted.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 17, 2022)

MTguy said:


> Are you training at one of those Title type facilities where they have fitness classes all day that don't teach actual kickboxing techniques except if you hire a personal trainer? I mean you can come in and do your own work. I helped manage one and got fired for teaching my classes 'too much knowledge and it hurts personal training'. The last session I had with a guy, the steroid owner came and said we don't need you anymore and I said oh well, this is my last class here ( I had a real job lined up) and he stepped towards me and stopped. He knew I could kick his butt. he was a 10-0 professional boxer but that was years ago and he thought MMA wasn't real fighting.
> 
> What I was getting to is man, for longevity, you should not be hitting the heavy bag without at least hand wraps. Unless you are fighting a guy with a titanium head, you are likely to break your hands if you hit him on the skull anyway. I don't see any benefit to this training. Don Wilson, was a side kicker so he will probably have a hip replacement. Have you seen him fight thais in thailand? kind of embarassing though some of the kicks kept the thais off him for a minute. hand wraps and or MMA gloves would be better for your tendons and ligaments than bare fisted.


I am 69, I punch heavy bag for over 3 decades, I even punch 6X6 wood pole shown in post #28 above. My hands are fine. I particular use my hands in delicate work, I play guitar, my picking slow down only because I don't practice anymore, I still can play quite fast though not as fast as 12 clean notes per second quick(out of practice, not physical hand limit). I do a lot of soldering of micro electronic components that I have to use magnifying glass to do, this require a lot of hands coordination. I have absolutely no problem. Like I can take a mechanical watch apart without damaging anything.

I just had x-ray on my left hand, no arthritis at all.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 17, 2022)

I absolutely agree with @Alan0354.  If you are smart about how you train, there is no problem with training without wraps and gloves.  I also have been doing it for decades, with zero injuries or debilitations from it.  

There certainly are reasons for training with wraps and gloves, but if those reasons do not pertain to you then you do not need to do it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 17, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Go to a sporting goods store and check the bags out, Don't stuff the bags on your own. Not all canvas are the same, the Everlast canvas is very heavy. The picture of Bruce Lee punch a big dent on the canvas bag, I think it's for show, you don't know what stuffings was in it. I bet that bag won't even last a week if he punch it like that.
> 
> Check out the leather ones. I can't find the exact same bag in the Everlast site, so I cannot recommend anyone of those 100lbs leather bag. I can't even find the 80lbs Never Tear red bag that I want to buy either. Maybe I should go buy the one on display in Big-5 near me before it's sold out.
> 
> It's NOT easy to find a heavy bag, went through that over and over already.


I'll see if I can find the link with the canvas bags.  I think I bookmarked it.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 17, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll see if I can find the link with the canvas bags.  I think I bookmarked it.


Let me know, I can't find one so far in the shop. Particular I want to hear how hard it is and how long it last also.

Ha ha, I am into punching bags. When I was still going to class, I found a school that had a bag hanging, it was in another room away from the class. Every time, I got there 2 to 3 hours before class, work on the bag on my own. I was surprised nobody do that at all. Even after I injured my back and quit the class, I hung my bag and start doing at home as soon as my body let me and never stopped since.

Ha ha, you talk bag, I am here all day!!! Experimenting bags, how to hang bags and all!!!


EDIT:

I have been looking at the Everlast NEVERTEAR red 80lbs bag in the store. The cloth is very heavy duty and I tried punching it in my friend's house, it felt good. No guaranty as I did not own it. But that's the one I would take a chance. Go to stores like Big-5 to see whether you can find one and punch before you buy.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 17, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> The problem with canvas is that they tend to tear the skin of the knuckles if you have any lateral movement at all when you impact.


The way to fix this is to hit softer and learn how to punch directly in and out of the bag.  There will be times where you will scrape the skin off the knuckles in the beginning.  Simply heal and stop punching.  Once the skin heals then punch softer and learn how to punch directly in and pull the fist directly back without any lateral movement.  The process will gradually toughen up the skin gradually and keep the person from hitting the bag too hard.  It will also force good punching structure because it's so unforgiving.  Once the punch has been "perfected" the person will no longer get cut from the bag.   For beginners, I think this slow pace is best and prevents them from trying to punch the bag their hardest. 

When I first learned how to punch a canvas bag it took my skin.  Then I had no desire to punch the bag my hardest or even medium.  I think it took 6 months of light punching and developing punches.  Over the 6th months I discovered that I was punching harder and that the skin on my knuckles became thicker.  I also noticed that my punches were becoming stronger from better punching technique..

Those first 2 weeks were a learning experience.  Even now when I think of a canvas bag. I think of this thing.  





The downside is like you stated. Damage to the skin (the bag will take the skin off if it's not it directly head on).  Any cuts on the skin should be treated and taken care of right away.  Punching should stop.  Allow the skin to heal.  Don't train on wounds. Scar tissue makes the worse type of padding.


*Training tip for a canvas bag*: Get electrical tape and create cross marks that are the same height and locations of the soft parts of your body.  Focus on hitting directly into these marks and avoid hitting across the marks.  The tape will help to improve accuracy and striking technique.   Most people who hit heavy bags really aren't aiming for certain areas.  They are just hitting the bags which isn't the best method of training.  Not saying it's wrong.  I'm just saying a person can improve more by striking with more mindfulness


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 17, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Then you end up with scabs that take a while to heal and you can’t train with those, without tearing them open and bleeding on the bag.


My friend left blood marks all over my bag.  I remember having to clean the bag.  He never did learn to hit the bag correctly.  He was stubborn to hit soft and too eager to hit the bag hard.  I think I might not have helped as he was probably trying to hit the bag hard like me.

If I were to train my son on the same bag then I would probably tape square pieces of cloth that would allow him to feel when he swiped the punch without taking his skin off.  But then again, he does a really good job with following instructions when I coach him.. So he may not need the cloth.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 17, 2022)

This is where I different from you guys. I don't stand still, carefully aim to make sure my punch goes in and out straight. Particular as I said before, I punch high because I am short(5'5"). I am NOT willing to give up the head of a tall guy. I want their face and head!!! So there's no way to punch straight in and out on a bag when I punch above my forehead.

Also, I don't believe in standing there, focus and all. I intentionally hung two bags, I punch and kick one bag, turn around, punch and kick the other, then turn back and do the same. The point of mixing in kicks is because I want to bag to move around. When I turn and punch the other bag, I lost track of where the first bag is, then turn around, ACQUIRE the position as fast as possible and start punching and kicking to make the bag swing around. Then turn to the other bag while it's still swinging around to try to stick it to the bag.

All these is to simulate in real life where the opponent is not going to stand still. he likely move around trying to avoid the strike. So it's unreal to take the time to acquire the target to go straight in and out punch. This is real life. The point for me is to practice fast acquisition and able to punch hard. But obviously I am going to miss some too and scrape the skin. Particular punching high, there is no straight in and out.

I have enough blood stains on the top part of the bag from head hunting!!!




But I am the only one that punch the bag, so it's not an issue. That's part of the reason I have chronic scabs on my knuckles.

Standing there, focus and punch at shoulder level is too easy, you see the duck tape at the lower part of the picture, that's where my shoulder level(and a little higher) is. I cracked the bag in no time. Surprisingly, those duck tape hold up quite well.

I still punch at shoulder level on and off, when I got discourage in punching and kicking, punching high, sometimes, it's discouraging. Then I punch at shoulder level and hear the loud echo sound and the feel of a solid connection, it's like.......YEH!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 17, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> This is where I different from you guys. I don't stand still, carefully aim to make sure my punch goes in and out straight. Particular as I said before, I punch high because I am short(5'5"). I am NOT willing to give up the head of a tall guy. I want their face and head!!! So there's no way to punch straight in and out on a bag when I punch above my forehead.


Here are some of the things that my son and I have been training on the heavy bag for the past 5 months..  Some of these things we stay in front of the bag other's we move and use our footwork.

1. Stick (hit) and Move
2. Evade
3. Cut Angle
4. Engage and Disengage.
5. Close the gap
6. Strike with shoulder
7. Off Center strikes
8. Bump and Strike. - This is where you allow the bag to swing into you. so that you can recover and strike.
9. Stand your ground - This is where you allow the bag to swing into you, so that you can counter the impact, but not avoid it.
10. Grappling/ Clinch work.
11. Maintain Distance with footwork.
12. Maintain Distance with Arm.
13. Maintain Distance with Kicks
14. Maintain Distance with  Punches.
15. Punch / Strike the gaps, (if your heavy bag can swing).
16. Step off center (with and without swinging bag)

I'm always taking a look at how I fight and try to translate it into a drill to use along with the foundational stuff that I do.  It helps to keep things from being dull.

My personal thoughts on "Aiming punches"  It think it's a must to have that type of accuracy.  Well aim punches land.  Carefully aimed punch helps to avoid the areas you don't want to hit, like the skull.  

Aiming for the head vs Wild swing to the head.  Which is most likely to land?
Aiming for the head vs Carefully aiming for the jaw.  Which is most likely to result in hitting the skull?

Punch Accuracy and why it's important.  Being focused doesn't have to look like a Martial Artist standing in a horse stance punching one punch at a time.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 17, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Remember the scull is hard under a thin layer of skin. When in fight, opponent move, you might aim at the face(softer), but if he dug, you hit the skull. If your hand is not conditioned, you can break the knuckles.


This is why I carefully aim my shots.  Striking techniques should guide your opponent to where it's the best time and place to hit them.  If your opponent ducks then it's because he saw your punch coming or because  he thought a punch was coming.  If your opponent ducks and you kneed him in the face then its because you knew he was likely to duck or you thought he would duck.   If you are shorter than your opponent then it's not likely that a taller opponent is going to duck your punch.  People most likely to duck your punches are those who are about the same height as you.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 17, 2022)

hey JowGaWolf, you gave me more ideas to do with the bags.

Yes, I already do distance type of drill. I always step forward to punch to close the distance pretending the opponent is farther away, not just stand and punch. This make it a lot harder with step forward and punch. Yes, I always aim to the center of the bag(various height, but always in the middle). You see the blood stain all around because with punch kick combination, the bag not only swing, it rotate too. Usually is because when I kick a little off center, the bag starts to rotate. So punching right in the middle become all over the area as it keep turning.

Ha ha, I even do hip throw(judo) by grabbing the bag and turn my body and pull the bag over my hip.

I have to do a video one day and let you give me suggestion. *Now, I am not an expert, do NOT expect to see some good skill or what.*

Last time you suggested about punching slow, I really did started with that. Even now, I start the bag session punch relax, WITHOUT even touching the bag, just going through the motion the first 30sec. Then tab the bags lightly, slowly increase the force. That goes on for at least like 3minutes before I start really hitting the bag. This give me time to concentrate in how my body move, how my shoulder move and all.


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## MTguy (Jun 19, 2022)

Most people don't understand how to use the heavy bag. Some people posted good advide above. Just because the bag is heavy does not mean you have to hit is heavy every time. I usually start the round with light work but good contact and up the intensity and force and work my way back down. When I do 9-12 rounds. I spend about half of it on footwork and moving around the bag to work on angles. I would say that since I'm mainly a Muay Thai guy that my round kicks are 75 percent full bore for shin conditioning as well as elbow work. My persoanl bag has sand and rags in it at the right areas. Little softer where punches are and heavy packed where kicks go. shin conditioning is the step child of training yet one of the most viscious weapons available.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 19, 2022)

MTguy said:


> Most people don't understand how to use the heavy bag. Some people posted good advide above. Just because the bag is heavy does not mean you have to hit is heavy every time. I usually start the round with light work but good contact and up the intensity and force and work my way back down. When I do 9-12 rounds. I spend about half of it on footwork and moving around the bag to work on angles. I would say that since I'm mainly a Muay Thai guy that my round kicks are 75 percent full bore for shin conditioning as well as elbow work. My persoanl bag has sand and rags in it at the right areas. Little softer where punches are and heavy packed where kicks go. shin conditioning is the step child of training yet one of the most viscious weapons available.


There are many approaches that can be taken in using a heavy bag.  Different disciplines that have different goals will place emphasis in different areas.  My opinion is that they are all potentially good, if it moves you toward the goals that are important to you. 

I recently had a debate on a different forum with a fellow who believes that Western boxing actually invented the heavy bag (which I do not believe is true) and there is really only one correct way to use the bag in accordance with boxing methods, that would include using wraps and gloves, and anything other than that is amateurish and dangerous and simply the wrong way to use the bag in an absolute sense.

My opinion: use the bag in accordance to how you have been trained and within your comfort levels.  I would never insist that someone needs to train in a way in which they are not comfortable, and in which they are not confident that they are safe from injury.  However, just because they are comfortable with one way, does not mean that others are not perfectly capable and can train safely in other ways.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 19, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here are some of the things that my son and I have been training on the heavy bag for the past 5 months..  Some of these things we stay in front of the bag other's we move and use our footwork.
> 
> 1. Stick (hit) and Move
> 2. Evade
> ...


OK, here is the video of my practice. Don't laugh, remember I am 69, I don't kick high because of my chronic back problem. Let me know if you have any suggestion.

I started and ended with punching to shoulder level. I just want to show it's so much easier to punch at shoulder level, the bag doesn't move nearly as much and I can stick into the bag much better. Problem starts when I punch higher, the bag just start jumping. Gets worst when adding kicks into the mix.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 22, 2022)

Anyone has comment on how I should improve my bag work? This is the first time I even record my workout. The first thing I notice is I move my right hand before I punch out, I need to stop doing that, it's like telling people my punch is coming. If you see anything I should work on, let me know.

I was looking for videos on bag work, this guy is really good, talk about speed and power.





Don't think I can even come close to this guy in this life, maybe next. When he punches, the bag hardly move, all the power goes into the bag, no waste energy in pushing the bag. The speed!!!!

Only thing is he still punching low, barely at shoulder level. It's so much easier to punch good at that level. Punching above the forehead is a completely different animal all together.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 22, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> OK, here is the video of my practice. Don't laugh, remember I am 69, I don't kick high because of my chronic back problem. Let me know if you have any suggestion.
> 
> I started and ended with punching to shoulder level. I just want to show it's so much easier to punch at shoulder level, the bag doesn't move nearly as much and I can stick into the bag much better. Problem starts when I punch higher, the bag just start jumping. Gets worst when adding kicks into the mix.


Hay Alan, here are some of the top things I would have you focus on during your bag work.

You are flaring your elbows way out when throwing straight punches. This telegraphs the punches, robs you of body connection and power. and gives more openings for someone to counter you. Get those elbows in.

You have a little bit of body rotation, but your punches are still being powered mostly by your arms. Turn your hips more and you'll generate more power with less effort. 

You are completely ignoring every aspect of defense. Always pretend that the bag can hit you back. Some possibilities to improve this are: 

Keep your non-punching hand high to protect your head
Move your head off-line with each punch
Keep the elbow of your non-punching hand in tight to protect your body
Keep your chin tucked
Use footwork to take your body offline to a different angle after or even during each combination
Start out of range, step into range with your first punch, then immediately exit range at the end of your combination
Place your forehead against the bag while throwing close range hooks and uppercuts. This simulates putting your head against your opponent's shoulder to make it hard for him to punch you.
Use head movement (slipping, bobbing & weaving) between punches
Keep a tight guard with both hands in-between punches



Alan0354 said:


> I was looking for videos on bag work, this guy is really good, talk about speed and power.
> 
> Don't think I can even come close to this guy in this life, maybe next. When he punches, the bag hardly move, all the power goes into the bag, no waste energy in pushing the bag. The speed!!!!


Don't worry so much about his speed and power, study his technique and compare it to the suggestions I just gave you:

He keeps his elbows in tight, he maintains his guard at all times, he keeps his chin tucked, he powers his punches with hip rotation, he frequently takes his head offline during punches, he changes his angle sometimes, and he fits in occasional elements of head movement in-between combinations. He doesn't use every single one of the options I listed for maintaining a strong defense in this particular short clip, but I'll bet he does use the others at times, depending on what his training is focused on that day.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 22, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hay Alan, here are some of the top things I would have you focus on during your bag work.
> 
> You are flaring your elbows way out when throwing straight punches. This telegraphs the punches, robs you of body connection and power. and gives more openings for someone to counter you. Get those elbows in.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tony

I really have to work on the elbow. I think one of my problem is I try to punch 7 to 8 punches. That not only make it harder to use the body, it really slow me down. Like the guy only punch 2, max 3. I find it easier to use body and increase speed because I only need to turn the body forward and reverse once. It's when I have to turn back and fore multiple times that make it slow and harder. I wonder whether it is useful to punch many punches at one time.

Another thing I find very hard is the front kick. I find it's the hardest kick to master. A lot of people ending up pushing the bag rather kicking the bag. It should really be like a punch that snap in and penetrate, not a pushing motion. Still long ways off for me.

Thanks


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks Tony
> 
> I really have to work on the elbow. I think one of my problem is I try to punch 7 to 8 punches. That not only make it harder to use the body, it really slow me down. Like the guy only punch 2, max 3. I find it easier to use body and increase speed because I only need to turn the body forward and reverse once. It's when I have to turn back and fore multiple times that make it slow and harder. I wonder whether it is useful to punch many punches at one time.
> 
> ...


I believe that people tend to misunderstand what a push is and is not, and often call something a push that is not a push.

A push can land roughly and continues through with the intent of displacing the object.  But a strike that lands hard and continues into the target is not automatically a push.  It is a damaging strike that continues through and causes displacement.  That displacement can cause additional damage depending on the target.  A strike to the head can cause trauma to the neck if that penetration and displacement is done, for example.   A deep penetrating strike to the torso could drive someone back and drop him onto his butt or back, as well as cause deeper injury.  

I often see comments about hitting the bag and wanting a loud pop with minimal movement of the bag.  I don’t automatically agree.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe that people tend to misunderstand what a push is and is not, and often call something a push that is not a push.
> 
> A push can land roughly and continues through with the intent of displacing the object.  But a strike that lands hard and continues into the target is not automatically a push.  It is a damaging strike that continues through and causes displacement.  That displacement can cause additional damage depending on the target.  A strike to the head can cause trauma to the neck if that penetration and displacement is done, for example.   A deep penetrating strike to the torso could drive someone back and drop him onto his butt or back, as well as cause deeper injury.
> 
> I often see comments about hitting the bag and wanting a loud pop with minimal movement of the bag.  I don’t automatically agree.


There's factor of penetration. It's when it penetrates the bag, but not pushing the bag that is better. It's like the target absorbs all the force, but not being pushed backwards.

As for front kick, I really want it to be like a punch, penetrate into the bag and making loud pop. Now it has to be the harder bags, those boxing bags seems to be so soft you can penetrate 5 to 6" easily, it's like hitting air.

I have to go bag shopping very soon, the white one is going to pop any day now!!! (


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There's factor of penetration. It's when it penetrates the bag, but not pushing the bag that is better. It's like the target absorbs all the force, but not being pushed backwards.
> 
> As for front kick, I really want it to be like a punch, penetrate into the bag and making loud pop. Now it has to be the harder bags, those boxing bags seems to be so soft you can penetrate 5 to 6" easily, it's like hitting air.
> 
> I have to go bag shopping very soon, the white one is going to pop any day now!!! (


As I said, some things are a push, but some things that get called a push, are not.  It depends.  Just because the bag moves does not automatically mean it is a push.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> As I said, some things are a push, but some things that get called a push, are not.  It depends.  Just because the bag moves does not automatically mean it is a push.


Oh, just because the bag move doesn't mean it's push. I've seen a lot of people doing front kick literally push into the bag. Of cause, it is good if combining snap and push, that's good, but I've seen too many people literally push when they do front kick. That was the common mistake I saw in the class I was in.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Oh, just because the bag move doesn't mean it's push. I've seen a lot of people doing front kick literally push into the bag. Of cause, it is good if combining snap and push, that's good, but I've seen too many people literally push when they do front kick. That was the common mistake I saw in the class I was in.


Gotcha.  I just wanted to comment because I am not always convinced that people can tell the difference.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Gotcha.  I just wanted to comment because I am not always convinced that people can tell the difference.


I really stopped and think. That's what my teacher taught back in the 80s how to look at a punch. Maybe I should rethink that again. I always take it as max penetration, min movement is good.

I am open for suggestion particular the front kick. I always like front kick, I feel it's easy to throw it, but it's hard to master it. At this point, with my back problem, that's the only kick I can really do. I can do low round house kick to the knee and thigh. I cannot do side kick or high round kick. I don't even want to try, I am just happy I can do this much already.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I really stopped and think. That's what my teacher taught back in the 80s how to look at a punch. Maybe I should rethink that again. I always take it as max penetration, min movement is good.
> 
> I am open for suggestion particular the front kick. I always like front kick, I feel it's easy to throw it, but it's hard to master it. At this point, with my back problem, that's the only kick I can really do. I can do low round house kick to the knee and thigh. I cannot do side kick or high round kick. I don't even want to try, I am just happy I can do this much already.


I think we would all benefit from taking a second look at any of our assumptions.

Do you do a front kick as a thrust, with the heel?  You pull the toes toward your knee to extend the heel forward.  Lift the knee up and thrust the foot forward.  Strike with the heel.  When you do it right, it makes a nice sharp smack on the bag, and the bag moves a lot.  I train in shoes.

It can be done as a push.  Just shove through with the leg when you put the heel on the target.  But it also works very well as a striking kick.  Thrust hard and land the heel into the target.  Penetrate until the leg is straight.

In my opinion, the biggest problem people have with a snapping kick is that they want it to whip back with lightning speed.  So they snap it back before it has a chance to land solidly and penetrate enough to do some actual damage.  Slow it down and penetrate.  Hurt that guy.  THEN retract the kick quickly.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I think we would all benefit from taking a second look at any of our assumptions.
> 
> Do you do a front kick as a thrust, with the heel?  You pull the toes toward your knee to extend the heel forward.  Lift the knee up and thrust the foot forward.  Strike with the heel.  When you do it right, it makes a nice sharp smack on the bag, and the bag moves a lot.  I train in shoes.
> 
> ...


I know exactly what you talk about using the heel. Actually I did practice and it can hit hard with sharp smack on the bag. I don't use it often because I lost a few inches of kicking height/reach. It might not be important for taller people, but I am only 5'5", every inch of reach matter. Also I learn TKD that use the ball of the foot to kick. If you look at the video, that's How I kick most often. I don't try to pull back as it does not give penetration. I try to "kick" as oppose to push motion.

I try to kick to the solarplex of a tall guy, It's hard to stick it in when I am short because as I kick higher, the angle become steep to the body and a lot of time, the ball of the foot just slide up the bag instead of penetrating. That's really my biggest issue.

One problem is it hurt the ball of my foot as those Everlast bags are very very hard at the bottom. Forget penetration, you ain't going to penetrate towards the bottom of the bag.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> retract the kick quickly.


When you kick, if your

- kick land on your opponent's body, you want your kicking power to go deeply into his body.
- opponent catches your kicking leg, you want to shift weight on your leading leg so it can be hard for him to hold on your leg.
- opponent steps back, you want to land your kicking foot forward to gain the distance.

I can find 3 reasons not to retract the kick. What's the reason to retract the kick?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you kick, if your
> 
> - kick land on your opponent's body, you want your kicking power to go deeply into his body.
> - opponent catches your kicking leg, you want to shift weight on your leading leg so it can be hard for him to hold on your leg.
> ...


When first learned it, the reason was to avoid it being caught.   But I agree, there are reasons to not retract quickly.


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## geezer (Jun 22, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can find 3 reasons not to retract the kick. What's the reason to retract the kick?


Some people like to use snapping kicks almost like a boxer's jab, snapping it out and back to chamber ready to snap out again.

In my WC, we say,"every kick a step, every step a kick" and do not retract our kicks like that. But what you really don't want to do is_ leave a kick hanging out there in space_.

But does anybody ...at least anybody with experience, do that?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 22, 2022)

geezer said:


> In my WC, we say,"every kick a step, every step a kick" and do not retract our kicks like that. But what you really don't want to do is_ leave a kick hanging out there in space_.
> 
> But does anybody ...at least anybody with experience, do that?


In the following clip, it's clearly to see that in CMA, "a kick is also a step". Not sure this concept also exist in Karate or TKD.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 23, 2022)

geezer said:


> Some people like to use snapping kicks almost like a boxer's jab, snapping it out and back to chamber ready to snap out again.
> 
> In my WC, we say,"every kick a step, every step a kick" and do not retract our kicks like that. But what you really don't want to do is_ leave a kick hanging out there in space_.
> 
> But does anybody ...at least anybody with experience, do that?


I practice the WC step kick to the knee. I've seen people use this in MMA. Very effective. I just did not do that in the video as the thread is about punching. Also, I spend more time working on front kick.

I did practice kicking with heel, like Tony said, it can penetrate good. My issue is like I said, I am only 5'5", I lose like 2" of reach using the heel. I need every little bit of reach. BUT, as I am typing, something comes to mind. If I can stretch more and kick higher, I might still get the height using the heel to kick.

Problem of kicking with the ball of the foot in TKD is if I kick too high on the bag, the angle of the kick is so high that the ball of the foot easily slide up the bag instead of penetrating the bag. Kicking with the heel should not have that problem. I have to try again using the heel, just need to stretch more!! (


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## Alan0354 (Jun 23, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following clip, it's clearly to see that in CMA, "a kick is also a step". Not sure this concept also exist in Karate or TKD.


I can only speak for TKD, we don't kick like that at all. This really close to the push kick to me. We kick with the ball of the foot and really kick out. In TKD, the kick that combine push is side kick. BUT side kick involves pivot of the hip to generate power. That's why it's about the most power kick in TKD. It's hard to pivot in front kick, it just doesn't have the power.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I can only speak for TKD,


You can't do that, either.


Alan0354 said:


> we don't kick like that at all.


Yes, we do.


Alan0354 said:


> This really close to the push kick to me. We kick with the ball of the foot and really kick out. In TKD, the kick that combine push is side kick. BUT side kick involves pivot of the hip to generate power.


So does the front kick.


Alan0354 said:


> That's why it's about the most power kick in TKD. It's hard to pivot in front kick, it just doesn't have the power.


It's hard? Maybe for you. Because people are different. A rear leg front kick should absolutely involve rotation.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks Tony
> 
> I really have to work on the elbow. I think one of my problem is I try to punch 7 to 8 punches. That not only make it harder to use the body, it really slow me down. Like the guy only punch 2, max 3. I find it easier to use body and increase speed because I only need to turn the body forward and reverse once. It's when I have to turn back and fore multiple times that make it slow and harder. I wonder whether it is useful to punch many punches at one time.
> 
> ...


3 punches that use the body for power and don't telegraph is much better than using 7 punches that telegraph and only use the arms. I'd recommend practicing that more. And as time goes on you'll be able to throw more than 3 punches that use the body, and get your punches faster, and as a side bonus improve your cardio more quickly.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There's factor of penetration. It's when it penetrates the bag, but not pushing the bag that is better. It's like the target absorbs all the force, but not being pushed backwards.


It depends on the type of front kick that you are doing.  All of the front kicks should penetrate even if it's a push.  If the push doesn't penetrate then the person will end up pushing themselves away from the person.  I won't go into the details of it because it goes into the stuff that you care for.  Sort of like punching straight in and straight back on a heavy bag.  Lost of technical stuff the more you dig into it. But in general a kick that pushes has it's place. 




Alan0354 said:


> I try to kick to the solarplex of a tall guy, It's hard to stick it in when I am short because as I kick higher, the angle become steep to the body and a lot of time, the ball of the foot just slide up the bag instead of penetrating. That's really my biggest issue.


There are advantages when you are smaller than someone and I think that's where you should focus your training.  Your training should be based your current flexibility and height.  For me personally, I would never try to kick the solarplex of a guy that is significantly taller.  This will actually put you in a range that is not beneficial to your well being in a fight.

You should have 2 separate fighting strategies. One based on people who are the same height as you and a different one for people who are significantly taller than you.   The other thing that you will have to come in terms with is to accept that you have to train the small stuff, like making sure strikes go directly into the target and come directly out.  No swipes, unless a technique "shaves" (grinds) the target that you are striking.  I know you don't like to focus on things like that, but you have come to a point where you'll need to.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can find 3 reasons not to retract the kick. What's the reason to retract the kick?


Reasons for retracting the kick.
1. Kicking while retreating or going back 
2. Kicking off center the center line.    I have a front kick that is done by stepping off my opponent's center line. This requires that I bring my foot back to regain the stance.
3. When doing front kick, don't leave your leg there for your opponent to grab.  There are times to step through and times where you should reclaim your leg.  The higher your front kick is, the less practical it becomes to "step forward."


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I practice the WC step kick to the knee. I've seen people use this in MMA. Very effective. I just did not do that in the video as the thread is about punching.


The kick that Kung Fu Wang is talking about is different.  He's talking about a front kick that is more like what you showed in the video.
There are different ways to exit a front kick.

1. You can bring your leg back  (retract it)
2. You can step forward
3. You can let it hang


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## Alan0354 (Jun 23, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can't do that, either.
> 
> Yes, we do.
> 
> ...


You have different TKD than we have.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I try to punch 7 to 8 punches. That not only make it harder to use the body, it really slow me down.


For

- power, your body pushes your arm.
- speed, your body chases your arm.

The power training is different from the speed training.

One time my shopping cart was sliding away in the parking lot. My hand went first to reach my cart, my arm followed, my body followed after my arm.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> 3. You can let it hang


When your opponent catches your kicking leg, it's not the end of the world.

This can be a bait to invite your opponent to catch your leg. When he does that, you can

- shift all your weight onto your leading leg.
- use both hands to control his head.
- raise your back leg off the ground horizontally (this will make your gravity center to be away from your opponent).

This will make your opponent very difficult to hold on your leg. The moment your opponent drops your leg. The moment you take him down.







Sometime you just want to give your leg to your opponent so you can change a striking game into a wrestling game.


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## drop bear (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Anyone has comment on how I should improve my bag work? This is the first time I even record my workout. The first thing I notice is I move my right hand before I punch out, I need to stop doing that, it's like telling people my punch is coming. If you see anything I should work on, let me know.
> 
> I was looking for videos on bag work, this guy is really good, talk about speed and power.
> 
> ...



Ok. There is a strange dichotomy when it comes to punching. So you get told to punch through the target. But what happens is you wind up spending too much time with your hand contacting the target. And you push the bag rather than strike it.

And then it isn’t as hard and it is more exhausting. 

So quite often less is more. You still punch through. But you also don't.

Which then gets that nice crisp impact you are looking for.


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## drop bear (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I practice the WC step kick to the knee. I've seen people use this in MMA. Very effective. I just did not do that in the video as the thread is about punching. Also, I spend more time working on front kick.
> 
> I did practice kicking with heel, like Tony said, it can penetrate good. My issue is like I said, I am only 5'5", I lose like 2" of reach using the heel. I need every little bit of reach. BUT, as I am typing, something comes to mind. If I can stretch more and kick higher, I might still get the height using the heel to kick.
> 
> Problem of kicking with the ball of the foot in TKD is if I kick too high on the bag, the angle of the kick is so high that the ball of the foot easily slide up the bag instead of penetrating the bag. Kicking with the heel should not have that problem. I have to try again using the heel, just need to stretch more!! (



Flare your toes outward.


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## drop bear (Jun 23, 2022)

geezer said:


> Some people like to use snapping kicks almost like a boxer's jab, snapping it out and back to chamber ready to snap out again.
> 
> In my WC, we say,"every kick a step, every step a kick" and do not retract our kicks like that. But what you really don't want to do is_ leave a kick hanging out there in space_.
> 
> But does anybody ...at least anybody with experience, do that?



I take that snap idea to the next level with the stabby toe teep. And it genuinely hurts people.

It has a few cool tricks to it that I will explain when I have more time


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2022)

drop bear said:


> gets that nice crisp impact ...


When you throw hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, hay-maker, ..., you don't pull your punch back fast. Why do you need to pull your punch back fast in jab and cross? The only reason that I can see is the jab-jab-cross that you use 2 fake jabs to set up a real cross. But when you throw that cross, you want to knock down your opponent. You don't need to pull your cross back fast.

You punch, your opponent blocks, you pull his blocking arm, and open him up, your other hand then punch through that opening. In order for you to pull your opponet's arm, you will need time to do that. A fast pulling back won't be able to do that job.

I can see the value to train the "knock down cross" on heavy bag. I just can't see the value to train the "fake jab" on heavy bag.

To train fast fake jab, I will use speed ball instead.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You have different TKD than we have.


I think the problem is you don't have enough training or experience. Because you make some very incorrect statements about some very basic things.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 23, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think the problem is you don't have enough training or experience. Because you make some very incorrect statements about some very basic things.


Been there for 3 years, at the time, we concentrate on front leg kicks, not from the back leg. It was Bruce Lee influenced that using the lead leg to kick. It's harder to pivot.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Been there for 3 years, at the time, we concentrate on front leg kicks, not from the back leg. It was Bruce Lee influenced that using the lead leg to kick. It's harder to pivot.


Like I said, not enough training or experience. 3 years is a mid-level colored belt. Certainly not someone who can "speak for TKD".


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 23, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you kick, if your
> 
> - kick land on your opponent's body, you want your kicking power to go deeply into his body.
> - opponent catches your kicking leg, you want to shift weight on your leading leg so it can be hard for him to hold on your leg.
> ...


The main reason to retract the kick is Newton’s third law…


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## drop bear (Jun 23, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you throw hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, hay-maker, ..., you don't pull your punch back fast. Why do you need to pull your punch back fast in jab and cross? The only reason that I can see is the jab-jab-cross that you use 2 fake jabs to set up a real cross. But when you throw that cross, you want to knock down your opponent. You don't need to pull your cross back fast.
> 
> You punch, your opponent blocks, you pull his blocking arm, and open him up, your other hand then punch through that opening. In order for you to pull your opponet's arm, you will need time to do that. A fast pulling back won't be able to do that job.
> 
> ...



I use the Dutch trap a lot less than I use the cover after a jab cross.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 23, 2022)

geezer said:


> Some people like to use snapping kicks almost like a boxer's jab, snapping it out and back to chamber ready to snap out again.
> 
> In my WC, we say,"every kick a step, every step a kick" and do not retract our kicks like that. But what you really don't want to do is_ leave a kick hanging out there in space_.
> 
> But does anybody ...at least anybody with experience, do that?


I might do it to bait the grab, I’m sure we can think of infinite reasons and circumstances where any, and every different motion could be applicable. Even the obviously incorrect technique can be applicable, as in “All war is deception.”


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Been there for 3 years, at the time, we concentrate on front leg kicks, not from the back leg. It was Bruce Lee influenced that using the lead leg to kick. It's harder to pivot.


If you train "jab, cross" combo, should you also train "front kick, back kick" combo?

When you throw a front kick, if your opponent switches sides, your back roundhouse kick can get to his belly nicely.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Training hard until I tore my calf muscle a week ago.  Now I'm trying to rehab the muscle.  I pushed myself too hard and paid the price.


Ow.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 24, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you kick, if your
> 
> - kick land on your opponent's body, you want your kicking power to go deeply into his body.
> - opponent catches your kicking leg, you want to shift weight on your leading leg so it can be hard for him to hold on your leg.
> ...


How about because you don't want to take a step forward.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 24, 2022)

Thanks guys for the comments. I am starting over in slow and light movement concentrating on body, keep my elbows in to punch. I particularly working on pivot when doing front kick, that I am not getting use to.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks guys for the comments. I am starting over in slow and light movement concentrating on body, keep my elbows in to punch. I particularly working on pivot when doing front kick, that I am not getting use to.


It's also a good idea to use the heavy bay to train "3 stars" to tough your arms.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 25, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's also a good idea to use the heavy bay to train "3 stars" to tough your arms.


I regularly practice hitting the pole. I use my fiber filled nylon cane to hit my forearm on both sides. Here is a video I practice hitting the pole, that's what I do twice a week for years.





I just do not have the forearm practice in the video. I think it's very important to toughen the bones and joints. I don't believe that I have to break my knuckles if I hit the forehead of the opponent. I believe I can train my knuckles strong enough to hold up.


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## drop bear (Jun 25, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I regularly practice hitting the pole. I use my fiber filled nylon cane to hit my forearm on both sides. Here is a video I practice hitting the pole, that's what I do twice a week for years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are also punching differently than you do on the bag.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You are also punching differently than you do on the bag.


Punching pole is just to strengthen the knuckles, really different from punching bag. It's like I use a cane to hit my forearms, it's for strengthening the bones.


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## drop bear (Jun 25, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Punching pole is just to strengthen the knuckles, really different from punching bag. It's like I use a cane to hit my forearms, it's for strengthening the bones.



Yeah. You should be punching the bag more like you hit that pole.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. You should be punching the bag more like you hit that pole.


I don't understand why, the pole doesn't give at all, if you punch like hitting bag, say upper cut, it's going to scratch the skin instead. Also depending on the angle, you can land on the second knuckle which is not the main contact point of the punch. Human body and even heavy bag, they give and the big knuckle will be the main penetrating point.

To me, punching the pole is just to strengthen the knuckles. You can see I punch half with the big two knuckles and the other half with the last two knuckles commonly use in Wing Chung. I train 2 knuckles at a time.

As for strengthening the skin, nothing is better than a heavy canvas bag that is rough. That's why even though the leather bag last longer, I much rather have a very rough canvas bag.


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## drop bear (Jun 25, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't understand why, the pole doesn't give at all, if you punch like hitting bag, say upper cut, it's going to scratch the skin instead. Also depending on the angle, you can land on the second knuckle which is not the main contact point of the punch. Human body and even heavy bag, they give and the big knuckle will be the main penetrating point.
> 
> To me, punching the pole is just to strengthen the knuckles. You can see I punch half with the big two knuckles and the other half with the last two knuckles commonly use in Wing Chung. I train 2 knuckles at a time.
> 
> As for strengthening the skin, nothing is better than a heavy canvas bag that is rough. That's why even though the leather bag last longer, I much rather have a very rough canvas bag.



Because you want to punch the bag with a penetrative snap. Not a push.

You were trying to achieve the effect that other guy had on his video.






So here you are pushing the bag. Which is why it doesn't react the way you want.





Here you are no longer pushing. Because the surface is hard and you would hurt yourself.


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## drop bear (Jun 25, 2022)

And by the way. For all you bare knuckle fiends out there. Get a water filled bag. Which kind of splits the difference between a heavy bag and a pole.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Because you want to punch the bag with a penetrative snap. Not a push.
> 
> You were trying to achieve the effect that other guy had on his video.
> 
> ...


I think the reason in my video that the bag jump more is because I punch above my forehead(punching above the silver duck tape band of the white bag) and also combining with kicking that push the bag. Also, I punch a little deeper into the bag instead of not trying to penetrate into the pole for very obvious reason!!! If I only punch to shoulder level like most of the videos, it will look a lot better. I even explained I intentionally punch into the silver duck tape(my shoulder level) at the very beginning and very end of the video to show the bag behave very different.  Punching high, I cannot achieve straight in and out.

I am not saying I punch good, I explained in the post that I punch high to simulate fighting with a tall guy as I am only 5'5". Also the white bag is only 70lbs, not 100+lbs that doesn't move as much. When I punch at the silver duck tape bag doesn't move nearly as much. In most videos, people punch at shoulder level or even lower. It is SO SO SO MUCH EASIER. Try it yourself and compare punching at shoulder level vs above your forehead, you'll see the difference on how the bag moves and how much harder to punch good at higher level.

Most of the people are taller than me, I don't think they realize how hard it is to punch higher. If I have to punch to the face of the taller guy, I have to punch above my forehead level, that's the way I practice for the better or worst, this is life for me as a short guy.

Also, I think the heavy bag makes a big difference. Some bags, even though it is stiffer, it does give and you can penetrate more. Those Everlast do NOT give, it's not like a rock, but the stuffing inside really doesn't give and cushion like those boxing bags. Particular towards the bottom, it's like rock. I did stuffed both bags a little at the top portion using the old stuffings I pulled from the old heavy bag I cracked. Like the while one is about to crack any time, I am going to save the bag and use the stuffings to stuff the top portion of the new bag. This not only make the new bag harder, it also make it last longer. If you don't stuff and punch at shoulder level, the bag will crack quite fast.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2022)

I forgot to mention one very important thing and the editing period is over. I am not trying to make excuses, it is just my conscious decision how I practice it.

Most of the videos in punching heavy bag not only punch lower at shoulder or even below level. Most only do jab then reverse punch. Always starting with the jab. This also is so so so much easier as you kind of wind up your body to turn for the reverse punch. It's like the jab set up the reverse punch to get good body rotation using the feet hip and shoulder. I put a lot of effort in making the first punch with reverse punch. That is if I lead with left side, my first punch is right hand instead of like most people that lead with the left jab to wind up for the right cross(reverse punch).

I try to get to 50:50 to make it harder to predict. In the tape, it must be 60:40, still more starting with jab. It is harder to get good body rotation when the first punch is reverse punch from the non-leading side and to cover the distance. I feel reverse punch hits harder than jab, so I want to be able to do that. Obviously, I still have work to do on that. Actually I am starting from ground scratch with slow motion to get more feet waist and shoulder into the punch. I do listen, it's important. From watching my own video, I can see what I need to improve also......Particularly on the front kick which is very important to me. I am really starting from the beginning, go slow, go light and try to put more hip and rotation.

Again, I am not trying to make excuses, but these are all conscious decisions: To punch high to the face of a taller guy, combining punching and kicking and start with the reverse punch instead of a jab.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 26, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It is harder to get good body rotation when the first punch is reverse punch from the non-leading side and to cover the distance. I feel reverse punch hits harder than jab, so I want to be able to do that.


I use my reverse punch like a jab and here's what I understand about my punch
- Good body rotation is determined by the stance.  Squaring off with both shoulders facing the bag means that you are going to have very little rotation as you are standing at the end rotation position that a reverse punch finishes.  Bladed stances put the reverse punch at the beginning rotation position.

- Power hand forward = devastating jabs.

- Punching at a vertical angle (punching someone's head, punching someone's stomach) shortens your punching ranging.  Punching straight ahead shoulder's length will give you the maximum punching distance.

- Reverse punches have a longer distance to travel so it's naturally a slower punch

- Reverse punch is a short range punch when stationary.


Alan0354 said:


> To punch high to the face of a taller guy,


This is a vertical angled punch that will shorten your punching distance and forces you to be closer to your opponent than if you punch straight. 



Alan0354 said:


> combining punching and kicking and start with the reverse punch instead of a jab.


Starting off with a reverse punch to the face = super short punch.  

Not trying to talk you out of your punch strategy.  I just wanted to highlight the realities that you'll be dealing with so that you can use them at the "best fit" situation.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I use my reverse punch like a jab and here's what I understand about my punch
> - Good body rotation is determined by the stance.  Squaring off with both shoulders facing the bag means that you are going to have very little rotation as you are standing at the end rotation position that a reverse punch finishes.  Bladed stances put the reverse punch at the beginning rotation position.
> 
> - Power hand forward = devastating jabs.
> ...


I am experimenting, I am open for suggestion and I spent today on the advice I got.

I want more suggestion on front kicks. I practiced pivot, it helps. If anyone have video how to start practicing a good front kick, I am open to that. Believe me, I start going slow on punching and kicking like your video of punching slow. It's like I start from the very beginning.

This is what I am teaching my grand daughter. Just when you think you know it all. Stop and listen whether you like it or not. Think about it, worst is you don't learn anything. What if you learn something?!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 27, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's like I start from the very beginning.


It's really not the beginning. When you get good at front kicks,  you'll still practice this stuff. 



Alan0354 said:


> This is what I am teaching my grand daughter. Just when you think you know it all. Stop and listen whether you like it or not. Think about it, worst is you don't learn anything. What if you learn something?!!!


Best life advice ever for everything, unfortunate it's one of the hardest things to accept. From time to time I still have to tell myself that.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Most of the videos in punching heavy bag not only punch lower at shoulder or even below level. Most only do jab then reverse punch. Always starting with the jab. This also is so so so much easier as you kind of wind up your body to turn for the reverse punch. It's like the jab set up the reverse punch to get good body rotation using the feet hip and shoulder. I put a lot of effort in making the first punch with reverse punch. That is if I lead with left side, my first punch is right hand instead of like most people that lead with the left jab to wind up for the right cross(reverse punch).


I just wanted to point out that some systems use a wider variety of punches than others.  From what I understand of boxing, for example, is uses a limited arsenal of punching techniques, to great effect.  Kung fu systems like Tibetan crane use a lot more punching techniques, striking with all parts of the fist.  This includes straight punches that strike with the front of the knuckles, as well as various swinging punches that land with the forward knuckles, the back knuckles, the top of the fist, and bottom of the fist.  Other open-handed techniques such as knife-hand, ridge-hand, claw-hand and beak-hand/fingertip techniques are found in many of the Asian systems.  All of these techniques can be trained on the heavy bag and can become surprisingly, sometimes even shockingly, powerful. 

Your personal arsenal will consist of those techniques you have learned.  If your arsenal is more limited, it can still be very effective, and rule sets and the use of gloves and wraps limit what is able to be used in sports applications like boxing.  Those skills can still apply very well in self-defense.  The options available in other systems create further possibilities.  You don’t need to be restricted to jab and cross/reverse punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> You don’t need to be restricted to jab and cross/reverse punch.


I might be wrong but I think in an early post he stated that he wanted to use the basics.  I could be confusing discussions but for some reason, I'm thinking that he wanted to use the basic strikes since that's what most people revert to.  Alan please correct me if I'm confusing you with a statement that someone else made.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I might be wrong but I think in an early post he stated that he wanted to use the basics.  I could be confusing discussions but for some reason, I'm thinking that he wanted to use the basic strikes since that's what most people revert to.  Alan please correct me if I'm confusing you with a statement that someone else made.


Ok, if he said that, I missed it.  

But then, what do you consider basics?  Many of the punches I described above are considered basic and fundamental to how our system works.  Pau choi and baht gim and chou choi are basics for us, but may be considered unusual by others.  We have a wide enough variety that people can choose to focus on certain techniques and not on others, based on what they are interested in and what they feel works well for them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 27, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Always starting with the jab.


You can also start with a cross (I'm talking about training and not fighting). When your cross can stretch your body to the maximum (compress), you then let your body to retract and send out your powerful jab (release).

This is one of the Baji system basic power generation drills.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 27, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's really not the beginning. When you get good at front kicks,  you'll still practice this stuff.
> 
> 
> Best life advice ever for everything, unfortunate it's one of the hardest things to accept. From time to time I still have to tell myself that.


ha ha, nobody said it's easy. I can tell you when I read criticism, I had to walk away from the computer, do some other things, calm down before I think more about it. That's human weakness. But I try very hard to look at it objectively to calm myself down. Then just try it anyway.

I keep going back to your short video of punching the little object slowly, I actually started my workout going slow for the first few minutes and observe. I was surprised I lost so much throughout the years. I did that before, it's like " How can I lost so much of this?!!!". I did!!! So start from ground scratch. Of cause I got it back much faster than someone just started. 

This is what I am working on my front kick now, very relax, concentrate on the pivot of the non kicking leg, pay attention to make sure my hip rotate with the kick.

I am also working on the punching also from the input here. I am slow compare to the young guys, yes, I don't turn  shoulder enough, it's about +/-30deg only. But I kept watching my own video, I don't think my punching have anything to laugh at. It can be better, but also can be worst.

Grand daughter is staying with us, so I am taking a week off from training. For now, I only doing jaw exercise(say typing exercise) this week!!! )


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> But then, what do you consider basics? Many of the punches I described above are considered basic and fundamental to how our system works.


Basics depends on the system you are training, it won't be the same for all systems.  The only thing that they all have in common is that they are foundation skill in which more complex skills are learned.


Flying Crane said:


> But then, what do you consider basics?


Basics for me are more numerous than the systems that only have straight punch, jab, reverse punch, hook, upper cut, cross.  These are my basics as well but like you have other techniques that are basics as well.  They are the foundational skill set that I build upon.  I've been working on these basics for 6 months now.  Tonight I started to work on my Jow Ga specific basics. my first step was to simply swing my arms and try to relax in the process.  



Flying Crane said:


> We have a wide enough variety that people can choose to focus on certain techniques and not on others, based on what they are interested in and what they feel works well for them.


A person doesn't have to train all basics. For example, I haven't train Jow Ga basics out side of what I mentioned above.  For 6 months it's been those punches and footwork.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 27, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> ha ha, nobody said it's easy. I can tell you when I read criticism, I had to walk away from the computer, do some other things, calm down before I think more about it. That's human weakness. But I try very hard to look at it objectively to calm myself down. Then just try it anyway.


Reading what people type is always difficult.  Sometimes I read in the wrong tone, which makes me think that there is some conflict.  I'm not sure, but I feel a little more calm now when replying.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 27, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> what do you consider basics?


Alan talks about heavy bag training and doesn't do solo form training in another thread.

In my long fist system, to be able to use your left hand to touch your right foot when kicking is a very important basic training.

If people stop solo form training, and only work on the heavy bag, this basic training may disappear from the face of the earth. It may not affect the fighting ability. But the body flexibility is not pushed to the maximum.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 27, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Alan talks about heavy bag training and doesn't do solo form training in another thread.
> 
> In my long fist system, to be able to use your left hand to touch your right foot when kicking is a very important basic training.
> 
> If people stop solo form training, and only work on the heavy bag, this basic training may disappear from the face of the earth. It may not affect the fighting ability. But the body flexibility is not pushed to the maximum.


I said I don't do forms doesn't mean I don't practice punching and kicking in combination in air. In fact I do half and half now a days. I just don't like any forms that I know of so far. Forms have a lot of useless moves that to me is a waste of time to even doing it.

I practice combinations like the video I did on the bag in air also, it's not just jab reverse punch, I combine punching and kicking, elbows and knees. I even put in judo. I do similar to that in air to work on smoother transition from one to the other.

There's a lot more freedom doing combination in air. With heavy bag, I have to limit my combination so I can hit the bag as solid as possible. But in air, I can continuous moving forward and backward while doing the combination. They each serve a specific purpose. You never get power unless you hit heavy bag. You don't get speed and smooth transition if you don't do combination in air.* You need both*, they are working hand in hand.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Basics depends on the system you are training, it won't be the same for all systems.  The only thing that they all have in common is that they are foundation skill in which more complex skills are learned.
> 
> Basics for me are more numerous than the systems that only have straight punch, jab, reverse punch, hook, upper cut, cross.  These are my basics as well but like you have other techniques that are basics as well.  They are the foundational skill set that I build upon.  I've been working on these basics for 6 months now.  Tonight I started to work on my Jow Ga specific basics. my first step was to simply swing my arms and try to relax in the process.
> 
> ...


Basic punches we do every single workout include flat, vertical, uppercut, roundhouse, back knuckle roundhouse, overhead, hanging, chopping hammer, lifting, circling knuckle, jab, and hook punches. On sundays we also do all the open hand variations and all elbow variations. That’s just punches. It’s common to shoot upward of 1500 to 2000 punches in a workout. It adds up quick when you do fifty of each on each side. That’s only part of the workout. Now I know everybody has their own name for these things so likely most of you are doing some, if not all of these.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Basic punches we do every single workout include flat, vertical, uppercut, roundhouse, back knuckle roundhouse, overhead, hanging, chopping hammer, lifting, circling knuckle, jab, and hook punches. On sundays we also do all the open hand variations and all elbow variations. That’s just punches. It’s common to shoot upward of 1500 to 2000 punches in a workout. It adds up quick when you do fifty of each on each side. That’s only part of the workout. Now I know everybody has their own name for these things so likely most of you are doing some, if not all of these.


Then, after you have worked through them in the simplest fashion, you work through them again in stepping and movement patterns, advancing, retreating, changing directions, in combinations, on the heavy bag, etc. 

You can go down that rabbit hole and spend all week there, if you want.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 28, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Basic punches we do every single workout include flat, vertical, uppercut, roundhouse, back knuckle roundhouse, overhead, hanging, chopping hammer, lifting, circling knuckle, jab, and hook punches. On sundays we also do all the open hand variations and all elbow variations. That’s just punches. It’s common to shoot upward of 1500 to 2000 punches in a workout. It adds up quick when you do fifty of each on each side. That’s only part of the workout. Now I know everybody has their own name for these things so likely most of you are doing some, if not all of these.


Interesting, do you have any video on your exercise routine you can show? You do one hand at a time?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Then, after you have worked through them in the simplest fashion, you work through them again in stepping and movement patterns, advancing, retreating, changing directions, in combinations, on the heavy bag, etc.
> 
> You can go down that rabbit hole and spend all week there, if you want.


Yep, that is in fact my regular habit. Kick punch combos, three six punch combos even have a repeating ten punch combo we do with cross steps and twist steps and cross, H, and box patterns with both step and low jump. And on and on rinse and repeat. Cal Gon take me away!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Interesting, do you have any video on your exercise routine you can show? You do one hand at a time?


I don’t normally film. My Sifu was opposed to it. I may do it at some point. I am happy to give you some basic recipes. Foundational basics is my focus.  As far as hands, I do singles, doubles, and triples of each punch standing, then deep horse, then while moving deep horse, then with kicks while moving. The back hand is never stagnant. A basic ten punch combo I use is   right hand uppercut, left roundhouse, left back knuckle roundhouse, right overhead, right hanging punch, left uppercut, right roundhouse, right back knuckle roundhouse, left overhead, left hanging punch. Just keep looping and repeating and add footwork. Stay low in the stance when you move to work your legs and make sure everything comes from the root. I try to focus on the balance and stability of what im doing. I practice these things over and over so much I could do it drunk or asleep. I feel like having a small number of basic utility tools that I can do flawlessly is more useful than a hundred things I can do with passing or mediocre ability. I focus my efforts on strict adherence to alignment and structure. I want it to be an expression of me, not something I do sometimes. I want to say that I am no Sifu, I am only a student of martial arts, and not the most knowledgeable by any means. Take whatever I say in my opinions or posts with a grain of salt.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Then, after you have worked through them in the simplest fashion, you work through them again in stepping and movement patterns, advancing, retreating, changing directions, in combinations, on the heavy bag, etc.
> 
> You can go down that rabbit hole and spend all week there, if you want.


It sounds like you have been watching me.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Forms have a lot of useless moves that to me is a waste of time to even doing it.


All things are useless if you don't understand how to use them.   

For someone not familiar with computer communication, OMG or  may be undecipherable.  Some moves in kata have purpose and meaning not readily seen with an untrained eye.

Post your style, the name of the form and a couple of moves you see as "useless" and I'm sure I, or someone else here, will be able to describe their meaning and practical application.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It sounds like you have been watching me.


HA!  I’ve been writing the book.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Forms have a lot of useless moves that to me is a waste of time to even doing it.


Or... and I'm just throwing this out there based on your history... maybe you just don't understand those movements.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Or... and I'm just throwing this out there based on your history... maybe you just don't understand those movements.


Entirely possible for me as well. When I watch some other systems do forms I may understand that “it’s a block” but I may question why they do it that way. Not that it’s good or bad, just different from how I might move. I find I can often learn a lot by visiting different schools just to see how they move. I’m not interested in techniques as much as the qualities of movement.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I said I don't do forms doesn't mean I don't practice punching and kicking in combination in air. In fact I do half and half now a days. I just don't like any forms that I know of so far. Forms have a lot of useless moves that to me is a waste of time to even doing it.
> 
> I practice combinations like the video I did on the bag in air also, it's not just jab reverse punch, I combine punching and kicking, elbows and knees. I even put in judo. I do similar to that in air to work on smoother transition from one to the other.
> 
> There's a lot more freedom doing combination in air. With heavy bag, I have to limit my combination so I can hit the bag as solid as possible. But in air, I can continuous moving forward and backward while doing the combination. They each serve a specific purpose. You never get power unless you hit heavy bag. You don't get speed and smooth transition if you don't do combination in air.* You need both*, they are working hand in hand.


Ok I agree with most of this. I do feel that many people end up leaning into the heavy bag in a way that builds bad habits. A bag isn’t a person. If you lean in too much as a habit of trying to create more force, a skilled person in a throwing or grappling art can take you to the cleaners if you are unbalanced or improperly aligned. Someone may correct me here but posture, balance and coordination are both offensive and defensive tools that are useful outside of martial arts.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Forms have a lot of useless moves that to me is a waste of time to even doing it.


You shouldn't make a generalized statement like this without giving an example.

What kind of moves are you talking about?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> HA!  I’ve been writing the book.


Well I better end up in the footnotes. And I expect a first edition autographed copy.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Entirely possible for me as well. When I watch some other systems do forms I may understand that “it’s a block” but I may question why they do it that way. Not that it’s good or bad, just different from how I might move. I find I can often learn a lot by visiting different schools just to see how they move. I’m not interested in techniques as much as the qualities of movement.


Sure. There are different ways to move and more than one way to reach a given goal. When someone says the moves in forms are "useless" all it really seems to mean is that they lack the training and experience to understand them.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. There are different ways to move and more than one way to reach a given goal. When someone says the moves in forms are "useless" all it really seems to mean is that they lack the training and experience to understand them.


I think that is a fair statement. It is the reason I don’t teach forms until people have a solid and consistent basics practice. Not saying that my way is the only way. It’s easy to make those blanket statements, people do it all the time.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. There are different ways to move and more than one way to reach a given goal. When someone says the moves in forms are "useless" all it really seems to mean is that they lack the training and experience to understand them.


I also think that when people say these things they are giving up their chance to learn. A very common failing in martial arts amongst the accomplished as well as the beginners.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I think that is a fair statement. It is the reason I don’t teach forms until people have a solid and consistent basics practice. Not saying that my way is the only way. It’s easy to make those blanket statements, people do it all the time.


Sure, unless you have forms to teach those basics. 


Wing Woo Gar said:


> I also think that when people say these things they are giving up their chance to learn. A very common failing in martial arts amongst the accomplished as well as the beginners.


Agreed.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure, unless you have forms to teach those basics.
> 
> Agreed.


Interesting, is all tkd taught this way? So when does that start, day one? Like a short single move at a time that is part of a longer form? Is learning the forms or katas tied to belt ranks? Lots of questions…


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Interesting, is all tkd taught this way?


I hesitate to use words like "all", but certainly every system of TKD I have any experience with or knowledge of does, yes.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> So when does that start, day one?


Yes. That seems like the ideal time.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> Like a short single move at a time that is part of a longer form?


So day one... I will be teaching a number of things. Amoung them will be the ready stance, the front stance, the middle punch, and the low block. Combine those with stepping and turns and you have Kicho Il Jong or Basic Form 1. 20 moves which will have you performing those techniques with both sides of the body.
TKD forms in general tend to be fairly short compared to what I understand about CMA forms.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> Is learning the forms or katas tied to belt ranks?


Yes. To earn a given rank you have to know the curriculum up to that rank. I understand there are some schools that don't care if you forget the lower ranked materials, but to me that seems... silly. 
Our curriculum requires written material, forms, self-defense, free sparring, and breaking. All of which become more complicated as rank increases. 


Wing Woo Gar said:


> Lots of questions…


Happy to answer them, if I can. I won't claim to speak for all of TKD, but I have quite a bit of experience with KKW, ITF and MDK schools, and at least minimal exposure to several others.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I hesitate to use words like "all", but certainly every system of TKD I have any experience with or knowledge of does, yes.
> 
> Yes. That seems like the ideal time.
> 
> ...


Thank you. How would you describe the differences in forms from one tkd style to another in your experience? Along that same line, how would you describe the differences between those styles themselves, and do those Differences drive the differences in the forms?


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thank you. How would you describe the differences in forms from one tkd style to another in your experience?


The form sets are more similar than dis- really. They all cover essentially the same movements, But strung together in different orders. the KKW Taegeuk forms are designed to be more readily learned by younger students. This is in keeping with the KKW philosophy that 1st Dan is a beginner rank and can be awarded very quickly, with a year not being uncommon.

There are subtle differences in the movements, but to a layperson or someone without a fair bit of experience, the movements seem the same. Some examples...
The MDK front stance is long, wide, and deep, much as it is done in the Shotokan that provided the basis for much of TKD. The KKW front stance is much shorter, more narrow, and more upright.
The MDK and KKW back stance are done with about 75% of the weight on the rear leg. The ITF is more centered.
The MDK and KKW teach roundhouse kicks (initially) striking with the arch of the foot, and with the ball of the foot later. The ITF calls it a turning kick and starts with the ball of the foot.
Stepping in the MDK and KKW is done while keeping the head essentially at the same height. The ITF standard includes sine wave movement, basically rising up and dropping back down as a way to generate power. I'm not convinced it does anything, and I learned the ITF curriculum before sine wave was really a thing. I don't teach it. And lots of ITF off-shoots that still use the Chang Hon forms do not.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> Along that same line, how would you describe the differences between those styles themselves, and do those Differences drive the differences in the forms?


To be brutally honest, many of the differences are strictly political. Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do exist only because GM HWANG, Kee got upset that he wasn't elected to head the KTA and left. He took about 1/3 of the Moo Duk Kwan with him. And since General Choi passed, how many branches of the ITF have been birthed? There are at least three totally different orgs that claim to be *the* ITF.
The other differences are, I think, primarily the result of different founders views on what should be stressed, e.g. the ball of the foot vs arch of the foot. 

In my experience, it's really very easy for a person to change styles of TKD. When I decided to add KKW rank (because we offer it as an option) I spent a couple of weeks learning the Taegeuk forms and then tested with a KKW 4th and 6th Dan. The Yudanja forms for the KKW and our branch of the MDK are the same, except for when you learn them. In the KKW, you learn Koryo as a 1st Dan. In our MDK, you learn it as a 1st Geup.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The form sets are more similar than dis- really. They all cover essentially the same movements, But strung together in different orders. the KKW Taegeuk forms are designed to be more readily learned by younger students. This is in keeping with the KKW philosophy that 1st Dan is a beginner rank and can be awarded very quickly, with a year not being uncommon.
> 
> There are subtle differences in the movements, but to a layperson or someone without a fair bit of experience, the movements seem the same. Some examples...
> The MDK front stance is long, wide, and deep, much as it is done in the Shotokan that provided the basis for much of TKD. The KKW front stance is much shorter, more narrow, and more upright.
> ...


Thank you. That was very informative. It makes me glad I’m independent of such organizations. I see the use and the benefits, but I don’t care much for politics or the results of internecine warfare in martial arts. I do wish there were more of us in my art, there is a lot I still would need to learn to complete my training. Alas, and a lack…


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thank you. That was very informative. It makes me glad I’m independent of such organizations. I see the use and the benefits, but I don’t care much for politics or the results of internecine warfare in martial arts. I do wish there were more of us in my art, there is a lot I still would need to learn to complete my training. Alas, and a lack…


On the other hand, what does it mean for your training to be “complete”?  

I havent learned all the forms in my system.  If I lived closer to my Sifu I suppose I would hope to do that.  But honestly, there is a part of me that is glad I don’t have them all.  There are a lot, and it can become burdensome to have more to work on.  What I have is more than enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life, and more than enough to offer a robust training regimen to my students. 

Forms are a tool, meant to teach you some lessons.  I am not convinced that every form has lessons that are unique to it, and don’t overlap with other forms.  How many forms do you need, to get those lessons to sink in?  If those lessons have sunk in after learning three or four, do you really need eight more?  If you have learned eight forms and those lessons haven’t sunk in yet, will learning four more help?  

In my opinion, the curriculum isn’t what is important in a martial method.  The principles and concepts are important.  The techniques and the forms and the curriculum are important as tools to help you understand the concepts and the principles.  But you don’t need every technique or every form in order to accomplish that.

Just something to think about.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 29, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I am not convinced that every form has lessons that are unique to it, and don’t overlap with other forms.


Agree with you 100% there. This is why you should grow tall and not grow fat. If you train the same kind of forms, you just grow fat.

In my long fist system, we have 10 must learn open hand forms. IMO, 5 of those forms may only help you to grow fat. Only 5 of those 10 forms can help you to grow tall.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. There are different ways to move and more than one way to reach a given goal. When someone says the moves in forms are "useless" all it really seems to mean is that they lack the training and experience to understand them.



Not necessarily. The issue is we could apply that logic to anything. Which then becomes this weird backwards training method where we would have to understand it to understand if we gained benefit from it. This is about the most inefficient way to train a skill. 

So say I suggested singing opera makes you swim better. I mean it might. Who knows. But you are probably not expected to spend 10 years learning opera to find out. 

What we do Instead would be look for a cause and effect from kata to whatever it is you think kata is good for.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 29, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> On the other hand, what does it mean for your training to be “complete”?
> 
> I havent learned all the forms in my system.  If I lived closer to my Sifu I suppose I would hope to do that.  But honestly, there is a part of me that is glad I don’t have them all.  There are a lot, and it can become burdensome to have more to work on.  What I have is more than enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life, and more than enough to offer a robust training regimen to my students.
> 
> ...


Complete wasn’t the right word. It won’t ever be complete. What I mean is that I know there was a lot left to learn from him( he died suddenly and quite unexpectedly). I was simply lamenting that fact. I wasn’t referencing forms at all, in fact it was the things that he could do that I can’t rightly explain or understand.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Not necessarily. The issue is we could apply that logic to anything. Which then becomes this weird backwards training method where we would have to understand it to understand if we gained benefit from it. This is about the most inefficient way to train a skill.
> 
> So say I suggested singing opera makes you swim better. I mean it might. Who knows. But you are probably not expected to spend 10 years learning opera to find out.
> 
> What we do Instead would be look for a cause and effect from kata to whatever it is you think kata is good for.


How about as a coordination training exercise ? Footwork coordinated with punches and blocks and dips and slips. No different than some boxing drills.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with you 100% there. This is why you should grow tall and not grow fat. If you train the same kind of forms, you just grow fat.
> 
> In my long fist system, we have 10 must learn open hand forms. IMO, 5 of those forms may only help you to grow fat. Only 5 of those 10 forms can help you to grow tall.


Absolutely agree. I'd rather learn 2-3 good forms and focus on them, than learn 10+ forms and spend time memorizing movements when I could be benefiting from the principles of it.

The exception to this is I do enjoy learning/dabbling in forms from new systems, as they give me insight into other methods of fighting and power generation.


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## drop bear (Jun 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> How about as a coordination training exercise ? Footwork coordinated with punches and blocks and dips and slips. No different than some boxing drills.



The reasoning is wrong. That's all.

Kata might do something. It might not. Understanding kata doesn't change that.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So say I suggested singing opera makes you swim better. I mean it might. Who knows. But you are probably not expected to spend 10 years learning opera to find out.


I'm quite confident it would. Opera singers, as a rule, have phenomenal breath control and lung capacity. Both of which would be useful for a swimmer.


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## Yokozuna514 (Jun 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The reasoning is wrong. That's all.
> 
> Kata might do something. It might not. Understanding kata doesn't change that.


Respectfully I think you are looking at kata from a narrow perspective.  I am far from being a kata expert but I believe kata is first and foremost an attempt to preserve ideas that can be passed on from one generation to another in sort of physical tradition. 

I would think that a founder of an art or system would want their system to have some method to pass on their work.  I have no idea how wealthy the progenitors of the fighting systems we have today are but I suspect that there are very few in the last 100 years that have had enough wealth and foresight to find a method that would be able to create a method that would stand the ravages of time.   In comparison,  the cost of creating a kata is fairly low.  Creating a kata is about instilling sweat equity into the ideas that can be passed along to as many or as little as the proponents are willing and able to propagate the art. 

Also consider the rapid change of technology and the effect that would have to preserve information.   Even though we have access to amazing technology now and we can preserve many things, this is relatively new.   Think back 40 years ago and the technology they had back then.   They wrote books and manuals that had to be printed and distributed manually at a fair cost.   Now go back 80 or 100 years which isn't a very long time at all but look at the challenges it would have taken to preserve the work of a fighting system.   

There was no real thing as IP back then either.   Can you imagine spending time and energy to describe your work but have no way to protect it from being stolen by someone else who had the means to do so. 

I agree that there are now other ways to preserve an art which are both affordable and protected in the modern world but I would not be so quick to judge and discard the methods that founders used in the past.  In the same respect that most of us are not writing manuals and taking videos of how we parent our children. we have those that do to a greater or lesser extent and if we jump to 40 years in the future what will those generations think of us and what we've accomplished.  They will probably review and dissect the information we have left behind and will still not have 100% of the picture.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The reasoning is wrong. That's all.
> 
> Kata might do something. It might not. Understanding kata doesn't change that.


It doesn’t? Well if I don’t understand the use, then how can it be useful? Maybe I misunderstand your meaning here. It’s a tool. Maybe there are other tools for similar purpose. Maybe some of those tools work better for some people. Objectively speaking, there have been a lot of skilled martial artists that used kata in addition to other tools to train. Some of them are likely to say that kata was useful to them. Since so many styles from so many places have produced skilled martial artists independently from one another using similar training tools, I would start by saying it must do something for some people. Remember, even placebo can be quite efficacious. Application of logic to perception is tricky. Belief can be very powerful, regardless of how science gets applied to it.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm quite confident it would. Opera singers, as a rule, have phenomenal breath control and lung capacity. Both of which would be useful for a swimmer.



Are you an opera singer?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Are you an opera singer?


No. Are you? And the lung capacity and breathing control isn't limited to opera singers. It's true of most singers. And most people who play wind instruments as well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> How about as a coordination training exercise ? Footwork coordinated with punches and blocks and dips and slips. No different than some boxing drills.


I don't know about Karate and boxing, but in CMA, to cordinate punch with leading foot landing is a very important training. This will give you the maximum knock down power.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. Are you? And the lung capacity and breathing control isn't limited to opera singers. It's true of most singers. And most people who play wind instruments as well.


And you think kata is justified the same way?

Because the opera link to swimming is honestly a generous mabye.

I mean the whole yeah this will work probably is kind of the issue I am discussing.

Investing too much time in to a probably is not an efficient system.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It doesn’t? Well if I don’t understand the use, then how can it be useful? Maybe I misunderstand your meaning here. It’s a tool. Maybe there are other tools for similar purpose. Maybe some of those tools work better for some people. Objectively speaking, there have been a lot of skilled martial artists that used kata in addition to other tools to train. Some of them are likely to say that kata was useful to them. Since so many styles from so many places have produced skilled martial artists independently from one another using similar training tools, I would start by saying it must do something for some people. Remember, even placebo can be quite efficacious. Application of logic to perception is tricky. Belief can be very powerful, regardless of how science gets applied to it.



Ok. So we can link cause to effect without understanding why that link occurs. Because cause and effect doesn't care about our understanding 

I don't need to understand newton's laws to throw a ball in a hoop. I can just do it until it goes in the hoop. 

If that link between cause and effect doesn't exist. Understanding doesn't magically make that link appear. 

So if i do understand newtons laws that doesn't automatically mean i can put a ball in a hoop.

So when someone says.

"it doesn't work because you don’t understand kata" It is an empty statement. Because nobody has made a decent claim that kata does work. 

And nobody will. Making a Statement and then supporting it with evidence isn't a high priority for martial artists generally. 

Now this doesn't mean kata does or doesn't work. It means at this stage we don't know. And that we are not using the right tools to understand if it does or doesn't work.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Now this doesn't mean kata does or doesn't work.


One of my forms has combo:

- groin kick,
- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook.

Even if you just throw this 5 moves combo at your opponent, you can keep him busy for a while. If you always start a fight by using this combo, you can put your opponent in defense mode and that will be toward your advantage.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know about Karate and boxing, but in CMA, to cordinate punch with leading foot landing is a very important training. This will give you the maximum knock down power.


I have zero karate experience. I have boxing experience and I have cma experience. I agree that coordination is important for all aspects of martial arts.  How that is applied and by whom is more important in my opinion.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok. So we can link cause to effect without understanding why that link occurs. Because cause and effect doesn't care about our understanding
> 
> I don't need to understand newton's laws to throw a ball in a hoop. I can just do it until it goes in the hoop.
> 
> ...


We should establish what most martial artists think the definition of kata is, and what it’s actual intended purpose is. Now I won’t presume here, I would instead ask what it is, and what its purpose is. See how many different answers we get.  That could be an interesting start.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We should establish what most martial artists think the definition of kata is, and what it’s actual intended purpose is. Now I won’t presume here, I would instead ask what it is, and what its purpose is. See how many different answers we get.  That could be an interesting start.


We've "beat that horse to death"  It would be interesting to see if that horse still has enough life for another round of "What is Kata"


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## Flying Crane (Jul 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> We've "beat that horse to death"  It would be interesting to see if that horse still has enough life for another round of "What is Kata"


Yeah, part of the problem is that not all forms were created for the same purpose.  As much as I like to say that forms were meant to be a training tool and not as performance art, that isn’t always true.  Modern Wushu and XMA are modern examples of forms that were specifically meant to be performance art.

It is also my opinion that not all forms were created equal.  Some forms are well crafted and worth the effort to practice.  Other forms are pure junk and are a waste of time.  I do not automatically accept that the ancestors who created the forms, including the traditional fighting forms, were geniuses who unquestioningly created a quality form.  Maybe in some cases that was true, but not in others. 

There is a lot of room for debate and disagreement.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> And you think kata is justified the same way?


No, I think kata is justified because there are a bazillion people who will say it helps them learn.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok. So we can link cause to effect without understanding why that link occurs. Because cause and effect doesn't care about our understanding


But we do know why that link occurs. Repetition is an excellent way to learn a skill. Forms are one way to do that.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We should establish what most martial artists think the definition of kata is, and what it’s actual intended purpose is. Now I won’t presume here, I would instead ask what it is, and what its purpose is. See how many different answers we get.  That could be an interesting start.



We don't really need to. Any kata that leads to a result is a link that lata has a result.

If  someone else's kata is fundamentally different then it would have to make its own case.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> But we do know why that link occurs. Repetition is an excellent way to learn a skill. Forms are one way to do that.


Provided that repetition actually leads to that skill.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Provided that repetition actually leads to that skill.


But it demonstrably does in thousands of gyms all over the world. So what is your point then? We know this from watching kids even. They learn kata, repeat it, then they repeat the motion from the kata, thus the kata lead to the skill.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Provided that repetition actually leads to that skill.


What is your teaching method to gain a skill?


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What is your teaching method to gain a skill?



Do the skill. Pretty much.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> But it demonstrably does in thousands of gyms all over the world. So what is your point then? We know this from watching kids even. They learn kata, repeat it, then they repeat the motion from the kata, thus the kata lead to the skill.



The skill of kata.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Provided that repetition actually leads to that skill.


Millions of people around the world have practiced things and gotten better at them.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Millions of people around the world have practiced things and gotten better at them.



That doesn't validate your one specific process though.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That doesn't validate your one specific process though.


How many millions of people need to use forms to improve their skills before you will accept that it works?


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Maybe someone can video tape some fights of themselves using moves from their forms so we can see. We might really learn something.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe someone can video tape some fights of themselves using moves from their forms so we can see. We might really learn something.


Every fight video you've ever watched used moves from forms. You don't understand forms, we get it.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Every fight video you've ever watched used moves from forms. You don't understand forms, we get it.


Using put down language doesn't make your case. NO I NEVER SEEN FIGHT VIDEOS THAT USE A LOT OF MOVES FROM THE FORM.

Maybe you should make a video of yourself, you are supposed to be expert in TKD, do a real fight using ONLY punch and kicks and footwork in TKD forms. We can all learn a lot.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe someone can video tape some fights of themselves using moves from their forms so we can see. We might really learn something.


Form:







Fight:


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## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Form:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's just a single kick. AND it got countered and being kicked to the stomach by a front leg round kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2022)

Within 15 seconds, he uses the same combo (form)

- right roundhouse kick.
- right side kick.
- left hook.
- right hook.
- bear hug.
- right knee.
- right outer hook.

It works twice back to back. It's a pre-arranged combo form.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2022)

In one of my forms Pu Han Dua Da, there is a combo as:

- groin kick.
- right jab.
- left cross.
- right hook.
- left hook.

that I like to use it a my starting attack. The combo can keep my opponent busy and put him in defense mode. That will be toward my advantage.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Within 15 seconds, he uses the same combo (form)
> 
> - right roundhouse kick.
> - right side kick.
> ...


Show me in those forms that do those. That's typical MMA stuffs that don't do any forms. These are pretty much the way we learn in our kick boxing/TKD school( no grappling and knee at the time)


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Using put down language doesn't make your case. NO I NEVER SEEN FIGHT VIDEOS THAT USE A LOT OF MOVES FROM THE FORM.


You have. But you don't understand the forms, so you don't understand how they're used.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In one of my forms Pu Han Dua Da, there is a combo as:
> 
> - groin kick.
> - right jab.
> ...


You have video of that form? You might actually have a form that is useful without all the long punch, big steps, horse stands, fancy arm whaling etc.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> You have. But you don't understand the forms, so you don't understand how they're used.


One video says 1000 words. I don't understand, show me what you have. Actually fight, not point sparring. Show me you use traditional TKD punch to fight. Using big horse stance to move around.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Show me in those forms that do those. That's typical MMA stuffs that don't do any forms. These are pretty much the way we learn in our kick boxing/TKD school( no grappling and knee at the time)


You said "form". You didn't say

- forms that you have learned (ancient form), or
- forms that you have created (modern form).

By definition, form is a pre-arranged sequence. It includes that you have learned from your MA teacher and also those that you have created yourself.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> One video says 1000 words. I don't understand, show me what you have. Actually fight, not point sparring.


You've already shown that you don't understand forms or how those movements apply to fighting. You've seen how many fights without making the connection? There's no reason to think making yet another video would help. There are already millions of videos out there showing movements from forms.
The problem isn't the forms, or the videos. The problem is your lack of understanding.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> One video says 1000 words. I don't understand, show me what you have. Actually fight, not point sparring. Show me you use traditional TKD punch to fight. Using big horse stance to move around.


I have shown you a video that someone used a pre-defined sequence (combo) and works twice within 15 seconds, but you said it's MMA stuff.

When both you and I have right leg forward. If I sweep your right leg, jam your leading arm, and punch your face. At that moment, I have put you in defense mode.

The combo

- foor sweep.
- leading arm jam.
- face punch.

can be an effective entering strategy.

So you create a form (or drill) that has those 3 moves. You then try to use it in the ring over and over until one day it becomes your "door guarding" skill.

To me, that's the purpose of form (drill) training.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> You've already shown that you don't understand forms or how those movements apply to fighting. You've seen how many fights without making the connection? There's no reason to think making yet another video would help. There are already millions of videos out there showing movements from forms.
> The problem isn't the forms, or the videos. The problem is your lack of understanding.


Yes, you are the expert, I don't understand. Why don't you make a video of your fight to enlighten me. Not point sparring, actually full contact. Use the TKD punch and kicks, and horse stand footwork to fight.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> How many millions of people need to use forms to improve their skills before you will accept that it works?



Does it improve their skills though? or do millions of people just do forms.

There is no automatic requirement for martial arts practices to work.

Here is a quote about chiropractic methods. That millions of people use to get better. 

"The fact that patients swear by us does not mean we are actually helping them. Satisfaction is not the same thing as effectiveness."

Chiropractor Preston Long, author of Chiropractic Fraud and Abuse: An Insider's Lament


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## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have shown you a video that someone used a pre-defined sequence (combo) and works twice within 15 seconds, but you said it's MMA stuff.
> 
> When both you and I have right leg forward. If I sweep your right leg, jam your leading arm, and punch your face. At that moment, I have put you in defense mode.
> 
> ...


Is this show in the tradition form? Including the throw? I seems to remember all the forms you show are nothing like that, all long fist, big stand.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Does it improve their skills though? or do millions of people just do forms.
> 
> There is no automatic requirement for martial arts practices to work.


This is going nowhere, that's why I want to see demonstration like using punching from below the shoulder, big step horse stance in TKD forms to actually fight.

Of cause you can use the kicks, BUT, punching below the shoulder where you tuck your elbow in, and walk around with that horse stance to move around? I have to see these used in a real fight. If not, why people spend the time on those? Just practice the kicks, forget the forms!!!

Time has moved on, I am surprised so many people still holding on to the yester-decades.

Maybe I don't know enough, that's why I want people to demonstrate with video, maybe I can learn something. Maybe you can learn something too!!!


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, you are the expert, I don't understand. Why don't you make a video of your fight to enlighten me. Not point sparring, actually full contact. Use the TKD punch and kicks, and horse stand footwork to fight.


People have posted numerous videos in this very thread showing exactly what you're asking for, but you don't get it. The problem is not the forms, the problem is your lack of comprehension.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> This is going nowhere, that's why I want to see demonstration like using punching from below the shoulder, big step horse stance in TKD forms to actually fight.
> 
> Of cause you can use the kicks, BUT, punching below the shoulder where you tuck your elbow in, and walk around with that horse stance to move around? I have to see these used in a real fight. If not, why people spend the time on those? Just practice the kicks, forget the forms!!!
> 
> ...



Yeah. The way people think about it is wrong . Which is the issue. And that becomes really hard to deal with because they think these things like millions of people do it. So it has to work. Is some sort of iron clad evidence. 

It is like the marketing has taken over the product.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> People have posted numerous videos in this very thread showing exactly what you're asking for, but you don't get it. The problem is not the forms, the problem is your lack of comprehension.


You only know how to insult? Don't you want to show people how you do it?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Is this show in the tradition form? Including the throw? I seems to remember all the forms you show are nothing like that, all long fist, big stand.


When you were young, you learned tradition forms from your teacher. One day when you become a teacher, you start to create your own modern forms.

1000 years from today, your modern forms will become tradition forms.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. The way people think about it is wrong . Which is the issue. And that becomes really hard to deal with because they think these things like millions of people do it. So it has to work. Is some sort of iron clad evidence.
> 
> It is like the marketing has taken over the product.


I think it's blind loyalty to tradition. I cannot believe it's been almost 50 years they got their behind handed to them and we still debate this. Funny after Bruce Lee died, so many of those so called "masters" came out and said they could beat Lee. They just totally avoid talking about MMA.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> This is going nowhere, that's why I want to see demonstration like using punching from below the shoulder, big step horse stance in TKD forms to actually fight.
> 
> Of cause you can use the kicks, BUT, punching below the shoulder where you tuck your elbow in, and walk around with that horse stance to move around? I have to see these used in a real fight. If not, why people spend the time on those? Just practice the kicks, forget the forms!!!
> 
> ...



Interestingly if we look at portal movement or knees over toes. There could be a case for doing a bunch of weird movement to train structural strength and flexibility.






It doesn’t have to look like fighting because you are training other things.

But they make a case and then go on to justify that case.

So mabye I could do that weird systema kata or contact improv or something.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You only know how to insult? Don't you want to show people how you do it?


What insult? You keep asking for videos of people fighting using things in forms. You've seen countless examples, but you don't get it. That's very much a you problem.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you were young, you learned forms from your teacher. One day when you become a teacher, you start to creat your own forms.


I was at least lucky(I also audition schools) to find a school that actually not doing forms. We drilled on things like you showed in the fight video INSTEAD of doing those useless TKD forms. Like in your video, we concentrate on front leg kicks like Bruce Lee instead of all the back leg kicks like in traditional TKD. All in drill practice, no forms.

Like those you called "add-on" in the other thread, those ARE the useful ones, the judo hip throws, leg trips and all that, those are the useful ones. Spend all the time on those, forget traditional forms.

Like I said, our teacher only made us practice forms 2 weeks before belt test as we have to go to HIS teacher's school to have the belt test. That's the only reason we even practice those forms.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> What insult? You keep asking for videos of people fighting using things in forms. You've seen countless examples, but you don't get it. That's very much a you problem.


Sure, you are the moderator, you are right, more right than us.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I think it's blind loyalty to tradition. I cannot believe it's been almost 50 years they got their behind handed to them and we still debate this. Funny after Bruce Lee died, so many of those so called "masters" came out and said they could beat Lee. They just totally avoid talking about MMA.



I mean here is a case to be made.





In that doing this kata for example means he can do movements that you or I could not even approximate. 

Not fighting but teaching athleticism and range of movement.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> walk around with that horse stance to move around?


Do you see any value to train the hip throw solo form?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe someone can video tape some fights of themselves using moves from their forms so we can see. We might really learn something.


Like a punch or a kick? or footwork?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Like those you called "add-on" in the other thread, those ARE the useful ones, the judo hip throws, leg trips and all that, those are the useful ones. Spend all the time on those, forget traditional forms.


Most of the time you just say what I want to say. If I call myself socialist, I may call you communist. I though I'm anti-traditional enough. You are just more anti-traditional than me.

Spend all the time on those forms that I have created and forget traditional forms is exactly what I'm doing.

Form:






Application:


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I mean here is a case to be made.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is athletic but not necessarily martial. It doesn’t mean anything one way or another. Many can approximate these motions, Otherwise there wouldn’t be a video of the competition. It doesn’t mean he can or can’t use it. Lots of high school majorettes can possibly put him to shame. Now that said, he had to learn this through repetition of motion. That is, doing the skill. Same as how you teach. New guy comes in, you show him the skill and he repeats it until he is able to approximate your motion. What is the difference?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Show me in those forms that do those. That's typical MMA stuffs that don't do any forms. These are pretty much the way we learn in our kick boxing/TKD school( no grappling and knee at the time)


And where do you think that came from? Outer space? UFC isnt divine inspiration it’s the evolution of prostitution.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. The way people think about it is wrong . Which is the issue. And that becomes really hard to deal with because they think these things like millions of people do it. So it has to work. Is some sort of iron clad evidence.
> 
> It is like the marketing has taken over the product.


You use YouTube videos of individuals for your evidence. Isn’t that the same? Why not post yourself teaching your higher quality method? Who are your students? What do they look like? You make a lot of assertions about other arts that you don’t practice. That’s like talking about dancing when you have never been on the floor.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> And where do you think that came from? Outer space? UFC isnt divine inspiration it’s the evolution of prostitution.


UFC got rid of all the useless moves and only pick out the ones that works. That's how the new world is now.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> UFC got rid of all the useless moves and only pick out the ones that works. That's how the new world is now.


This is funny.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Interestingly if we look at portal movement or knees over toes. There could be a case for doing a bunch of weird movement to train structural strength and flexibility.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do a lot of weir stuffs to fix myself, these are very important. I can write a multiple pages on my own body treatment using weights, stretches body movements. I am no expert, that's why I never share all these. But it works for me. Whatever I can do in MA, I credit all to those exercise.

But this is not part of the kata or form. None of the forms I've seen helps body injuries NOR make you stronger and have more muscles. That's is something that is very important to me. Not only you need skill, you need strength.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> This is funny.


Well, they sure made TMA funny. You watched the first few UFC with all the kung fu people there? Now that was funny.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I do a lot of weir stuffs to fix myself, these are very important. I can write a multiple pages on my own body treatment using weights, stretches body movements. I am no expert, that's why I never share all these. But it works for me. Whatever I can do in MA, I credit all to those exercise.
> 
> But this is not part of the kata or form. None of the forms I've seen helps body injuries NOR make you stronger and have more muscles. That's is something that is very important to me. Not only you need skill, you need strength.


You are welcome to train in any way that you like.  

Let me ask you a question:  you come here and spend a lot of time complaining about forms and how you don’t like them.  Ok, you don’t have to like them, you don’t have to train them.  That is your free choice.

So what are you trying to accomplish?  What do you think will happen, if you just complain hard enough, about how other people train?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Well, they sure made TMA funny. You watched the first few UFC with all the kung fu people there? Now that was funny.


Oh, I don’t waste my time watching UFC.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> UFC got rid of all the useless moves and only pick out the ones that works. That's how the new world is now.


I want what you are taking. It seems like a good flavor of kool aid.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I do a lot of weir stuffs to fix myself, these are very important. I can write a multiple pages on my own body treatment using weights, stretches body movements. I am no expert, that's why I never share all these. But it works for me. Whatever I can do in MA, I credit all to those exercise.
> 
> But this is not part of the kata or form. None of the forms I've seen helps body injuries NOR make you stronger and have more muscles. That's is something that is very important to me. Not only you need skill, you need strength.


Maybe you are beyond kata. I think of kata as other people’s music. I want to play my own music but there is a process to getting there. Unless you are a prodigy, that means learning scales and chords first.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Well, they sure made TMA funny. You watched the first few UFC with all the kung fu people there? Now that was funny.
> 
> 
> Alan0354 said:
> ...


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

Oh I forgot small joint manipulation.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> UFC got rid of all the useless moves and only pick out the ones that works. That's how the new world is now.


Like kicks to the knee? Like air chokes? Like elbows to back of head? Like groin strikes? Oh yeah those definitely dont work.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Like kicks to the knee? Like air chokes? Like elbows to back of head? Like groin strikes? Oh yeah those definitely dont work.


Do not confuse with those with forms, we are talking about forms.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 1, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> You are welcome to train in any way that you like.
> 
> Let me ask you a question:  you come here and spend a lot of time complaining about forms and how you don’t like them.  Ok, you don’t have to like them, you don’t have to train them.  That is your free choice.
> 
> So what are you trying to accomplish?  What do you think will happen, if you just complain hard enough, about how other people train?


@Alan0354, do you have an answer for this?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You use YouTube videos of individuals for your evidence. Isn’t that the same? Why not post yourself teaching your higher quality method? Who are your students? What do they look like? You make a lot of assertions about other arts that you don’t practice. That’s like talking about dancing when you have never been on the floor.



It isn’t about me. And I don't teach. As far as students go we have had some success. Title belts. Golden gloves, wins in multiple disciplines. 

The person who does teach is objectively reputable in multiple disciplines. Objectively because he competed at an elite level. 

I can tell if a school can teach dancing. Because there is dancing competitions. And it is an objective measure.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Like kicks to the knee? Like air chokes? Like elbows to back of head? Like groin strikes? Oh yeah those definitely dont work.



You have never heard of John Jones. Have you?


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 1, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> So what are you trying to accomplish?  What do you think will happen, if you just complain hard enough, about how other people train?


I thought this is a discussion of usefulness of forms, my opinion is not, too much time spent on things that are NOT practical. Of cause there are kicks or something that can be used, BUT, why not just practice those that can be used in real life situation and cut out those that doesn't work?

Nobody said MMA is a brand new, The word Mixed Martial Arts MEAN picking ONLY the useful moves from different styles, put it into practice and use it in the closest to a real fight.

Notice they use WC step front kick to the knee? BECAUSE it WORKS. That does NOT mean WC is good all around. It would be really stupid to waste time on the stick hands in real fight. People move around, how the hell do you "STICK" the opponent's hand to trap his hands? You seriously want to do WC punches in real fight?

People use TKD kicks in MMA, doesn't  mean they are going to follow TKD punches where you tuck your elbows below the shoulders and leaving your whole face wide open to be attacked? Are you going to use wide horse stance in a real fight like Karate and TKD, punch like them in real fight?

MMA people find a lot of Muy Thai useful, Muy Thai is the closest to standup real fight, nothing pretty, just practical. Not to be offensive and I don't know the detail, I heard from a friend of mine that was into MA telling me back in the days(60s), they have open fight competitions in Asia every year where different styles not just from China, but the whole Asia get together and fight. He told me Muy Thai really WHOPPED all the Kung fu people. I cannot verify that. BUT looking at how Muy Thai and look at a lot of the Chinese kung fu. I believe it. It's a different dimension.

Muy Thai works, that's why MMA incorporates a lot of Muy Thai into the fight. Correct me if I am wrong, I never heard Muy Thai have forms, just practice individual moves. It's about efficiency, stop wasting time on things that don't work and put the time on things that work.

DO NOT think for a moment I am happy about this. I learned TKD/Kick boxing, my stuffs are way behind, not much better than all the TMA stuffs. BUT JUST BECAUSE I KNOW I AM NO MATCH TO THE NEW MMA DOESN'T MEAN I SHOULD PUT THEM DOWN AND DENY THEIR VALIDITY. Time has change, you either acknowledge and improve or you'll be made obsoleted.

Like I said, talk is cheap, you can make your point by winning some fights in the ring/octagon. Win using stuffs in the form, don't start fighting with boxing hands, TKD/Muy Thai kicks. Prove your style by using all the moves unique to your style. Don't trash talk and quietly learn from MMA and fight like MMA, use your signature stuffs of your style and win some fights.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It isn’t about me. And I don't teach. As far as students go we have had some success. Title belts. Golden gloves, wins in multiple disciplines.
> 
> The person who does teach is objectively reputable in multiple disciplines. Objectively because he competed at an elite level.
> *
> I can tell if a school can teach dancing. Because there is dancing competitions. And it is an objective measure.*


There's a saying, talk is cheap.

I watched competitions between different styles in Asia in the 60s before I even learn anything. But I had a lot of exposure to kung fu. I had good idea how different styles look. When I watched the fight on tv, first thing came to my mind was "How come they all fight like the same!!". I impression was it's a dog fight, no style, just punching and kicking each other stupid.

I guess even at the time, they knew what actually worked and what not. You sure cannot tell between each style in the fights.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most of the time you just say what I want to say. If I call myself socialist, I may call you communist. I though I'm anti-traditional enough. You are just more anti-traditional than me.
> 
> Spend all the time on those forms that I have created and forget traditional forms is exactly what I'm doing.
> 
> ...


*I think you and I interpret "form" different. *I meant form is in "kata". The kind that going on and on for over a minute. It's a whole sequence of stuffs.

*What you show here are all one or two steps stuffs. THESE ARE VERY PRACTICAL AND USEFUL.  This is what I have been talking about cut out all the stuffs in the middle, practice ONLY this kind of one step or two step techniques that can be used in real fight.*

If you mean this kind of practice, I agree 100%. It's the long form like katas that I am against as there are a lot of useless stuffs.


This is what I don't find useful:





If there is any one or two step technique that is useful, pick it out and just practice on those like what you show. forget all the other "dancing" stuffs that is a total waste of time.

I saw many styles spending so much time doing these kind of katas, it would be so much more effective and better off if they just extract only the part that is useful and practice on that only.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> *I think you and I interpret "form" different. *I meant form is in "kata". The kind that going on and on for over a minute. It's a whole sequence of stuffs.


If I link the following 5 4 moves combo, I will get a 20 moves form.  

C1 - front kick, jab, cross, hook.
C2 - side kick, hook, spin back fist, uppercut.
C3 - roundhouse kick, hook, back fist, overhand.
C4 - hook kick, hook, uppercut, hammer fist.
C5 - crescent kick, spin back fist, hook,  overhand.

Here is another example.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I link the following 5 4 moves combo, I will get a 20 moves form.
> 
> C1 - front kick, jab, cross, hook.
> C2 - side kick, hook, spin back fist, uppercut.
> ...


This is very different, I can only agree on those from your other post. This, *no*. You cannot do a form to throw people, you need to practice with a partner, forget the form. SIMPLIFY the moves, make it practical, don't whale the hand in big circles to make it look pretty. You don''t have to make things pretty!!! No, this is NOT what I am talking about.

You study some real fighting? You ever stop and watch how people fight in real fight, or you just think of everything as artistic and pretty, or in slow motion to show it works?

I guess I can see more and more how TMA gone down the pots, still hang onto this kind of stuff instead of studying how people kick butt in real competitions. Take a lesson from Muy Thai, nothing good looking, just kicking butt. I bet they spend a lot more time in running drills with partners, sparring  and full contact fights than to doing forms to look pretty. If you want to include grappling, you REALLY REALLY have to study MMA and watch UFC fights. People moved on for 30 years already. Royce Gracie that butt kicked all the CMA had his butt handed to him long time ago. And the guy that kicked his butt had his butt handed to him years ago already. It's a different world. Things are moving in warp speed the last 30 years.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You cannot do a form to throw people, you need to practice with a partner,


You may confuse about the Chinese wrestling training order.

You use

1. partner drill to develop skill.
2. wrestling/sparring to test skill.
3. equipment/weight to enhance skill.
4. solo drill to polish skill.

1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4

The solo drill polishing is the 4th step in that sequence.

The solo drill = partner drill without partner.

The form (sequence of solo drill) is just like a text book. It's ONLY used for teaching/learning. It's NOT used for training.

Step 1 - partner drill






Step 2 - wrestling/sparring






Step 3 - equipment/weight






Step 4 - solo drill


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## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may confuse about the Chinese wrestling training order.
> 
> You use
> 
> ...


This is just like Judo I learn before.

Those are good, but not put into a form doing solo. You cannot do throws by doing it in the form. In these videos, there's no fancy whiling the hands and all that, just to the point doing the throw. That's good. forget step 4. there are much better ways for step 3. Join the gym, plenty of weights for training strength.

But I just have a feeling we are not talking in the same key here.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> But I just have a feeling we are not talking in the same key here.


We both agree that form should not be used to develop skill. The difference is:

- You believe form is useless.
- I believe form can be used to polish an already developed skill. Also form can be used as text book to record information.


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## Ivan (Jul 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I had to stop hitting the heavy bag hard after 4 months of hitting it without gloves.  It turns how that as I got stronger I was able to penetrate the bag more which is good in a sense but bad in terms of conditioning.  When I hit the bag now, it wraps around my fist instead of just landing on the knuckles that I'm striking with.  The wrap around damages the other knuckles  that I don't use when doing linear or hook punches.
> 
> The picture below looks good, but take note of how the bag wraps around the fist.  This is brutal on the other knuckles.  Eventually those knuckles would be conditioned as well but there's now real reason to have conditioned and deformed knuckles. The human body gives much more than a bag does.  I still hit the heavy bag, but I don't hit it hard anymore. I also try to punch on the harder spots that are more compact.  Hitting the small areas of the bag are just brutal for me when punching my hardest.
> View attachment 28535
> ...


Hi it’s awesome to hear that you have improved. It’s important to note that punching the bag bare knuckle is quite taxing on the wrists too. I’m not sure if you wore wraps or not, but I made the mistake of punching heavy bags without wraps regularly for the 5 years which I focused on boxing, which has led to a bony swelling in one of my wrists (presumably from micro fracture heals) and pain in both of them. Please ensure you wear wraps if you do so again!


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## Flying Crane (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I thought this is a discussion of usefulness of forms, my opinion is not, too much time spent on things that are NOT practical. Of cause there are kicks or something that can be used, BUT, why not just practice those that can be used in real life situation and cut out those that doesn't work?
> 
> Nobody said MMA is a brand new, The word Mixed Martial Arts MEAN picking ONLY the useful moves from different styles, put it into practice and use it in the closest to a real fight.
> 
> ...


This was actually a discussion about a member’s experience with the heavy bag.  However, here you are complaining about forms and how other people train.  You didn’t answer my question, so I ask again:  what do you expect to accomplish by coming on here and complaining about how other people train?  You are free to train however you want.  Why do you care so much that other people train forms?  What do you want to see happen?


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## Flying Crane (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There's a saying, talk is cheap.


And you do talk a lot.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Do not confuse with those with forms, we are talking about forms.


You said ufc got rid of stuff that doesn’t work.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jul 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You have never heard of John Jones. Have you?


Of course.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Of course.



That is pretty much all he did.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe someone can video tape some fights of themselves using moves from their forms so we can see. We might really learn something.


Does sparring count?  I have a video of intermediate sparring intensity.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Does sparring count?  I have a video of intermediate sparring intensity.


Anything is better than talk.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We both agree that form should not be used to develop skill. The difference is:
> 
> - You believe form is useless.
> - I believe form can be used to polish an already developed skill. Also form can be used as text book to record information.


To me, it's a waste of time practicing something that is not useful. Maybe in the older days where people didn't have better things to do. For today's people, time is money. If you only have time to practice 1hr a day, you really want to spend 1/2hr on forms?


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## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> And you do talk a lot.


Yes, I have the week off this week.

Also, I am surprised how much TMA people keep defending their style instead of being humble and learn when it's proven the new ways work better based on fights. I guess I was working in high tech where changes happen everyday. We learn to adapt, throw away the old knowledge and humbly learn the better way.

For me, I am too old and injured to learn and get into MMA, but I always said I won't last a minute with the new style. I have eyes and I keep my eyes open instead of blindly loyal to what I learned in the past.

Hey, I never claim I am good, I have been honest where I am at. I actually show videos of myself so people know exactly where I am at. I only spent a few years, not like you experts that are instructors. BUT I do have eyes to see and judge. I believe in show and tell. One video speaks a 1000 words.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You said ufc got rid of stuff that doesn’t work.


We are talking about one step or two steps drills, not the long form. It is important to practice one step or two steps drills with partners, then of cause sparring.

BTW, my teacher was really advanced beyond his time in the 80s. Not only we don't do forms and practicing punching and kicking on bags. Once a month, he invited a Jujitsu instructor to run the class to teach us jujitsu. That's why we at least have basic knowledge on jujitsu.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> To me, it's a waste of time practicing something that is not useful.


*Q: What's the value for a form?
A: It can be used to record information.*

Since Chinese wrestling has over 60 different categories of throw, a total over 230 throws, many years ago I tried to create a throwing form that throw 1 can set up throw 2, throw 2 can set up throw 3, ..., throw 23 can set up throw 24. It was a challenged task. I had come up many diferent forms for that task. The following sequence was one of those forms that I have created.

Purpose:

- Record information.
- This task has not been done before.
- Understand how to use one throw to set up another throw.
- ...

*1. 扣 Knee seizing (KOU) N
2. 踢 Foot sweep (TI) N
3. 合 Inner hook (HE) N - S
4. 挽 Send forward (WAN) S
5. 崩 Cracking (BENG) N
6. 管 Body control (GUAN) N
7. 刀 Inner sickle (DAO) N
8. 揣 Overhead (CHUAI)) S
9. 撞 Trunk hitting (ZHUANG) N
10. 靠 Advance squeeze (KAO) W
11. 切 Front cut (QIE) N
12. 挑 Leg lift (TIAO) S - S
13. 掛 Inner heel sweep (GUA) S - S
14. 蹩 Leg block (BIE) – N
15. 纏 Leg twist (CHAN), S
16. 摟 Outer hook (LOU) S
17. 搵 Hip throw (WEN), N
18. 掰 Split (BAI) S
19. 撿 Leg seize (JIAN) N
20. 裏 Back inner hook (LI) E
21. 沖 Inner kick (CHONG) N
22. 彈 Leg spring (TAN) W - N
23. 捆 Tie (KUN) W
24. 抱 Embrace (BAO) E*


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> To me, it's a waste of time practicing something that is not useful. Maybe in the older days where people didn't have better things to do. For today's people, time is money. If you only have time to practice 1hr a day, you really want to spend 1/2hr on forms?


*Video 1*: This





*Video 2: * Is the same as this (with them moving while in horse stance)





*Video 3*: and is the same footwork found here





Not all of it is useless.  The biggest problem that I see is that many people who see and train Video 2 don't understand the application of it because they never tried to actually use it.   People almost automatically think,  "You can't fight like that, at that speed, and with your hands to the side,"  That's the wrong way to think of Video 2.  With Video 2, the questions should be:
1. What is being trained
2. What is the benefit of doing that training
3. How does doing that training make you more effective in Video 1 and Video 3:

Video 2 conditions and train all of the components needed to be effective and efficient as shown in Video 1 and Video 3.  Without it that conditioning your knees, tendons, and ligaments will take a beating.  Your leg muscles will tire easily making it more difficult for you to move without tiring.

The improvement that you are trying to gain in your front kick can be improved by doing some of the stuff that you originally think as being useless.  If you like I can share some of those "useless exercises" with you and I guarantee that you'll see improvement in your front kicks. If you do them 5 times a week in a 5 minute sessions (per exercise and includes rest).  The first thing you'll experience is that something so simple is so challenging.   You won't break a sweat but it will make your legs stronger for kicking.  The only thing you'll need is some tape and a bendable drinking straw.  You see noticeable results within 3-4 weeks training at a comfortable pace.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Also, I am surprised how much TMA people keep defending their style instead of being humble and learn when it's proven the new ways work better based on fights.


Actually the pattern in professional fighting is showing that the old ways work and that young fighters are learning how to use the old ways better.  There's nothing to be humble about.  

MMA for beginners (I doubt that unless the person already had skills).  Same stuff I've seen in traditional martial arts classes.  If this guy was Silva's student, Silva would make the guy train punches and elbows until he can do a decent punch or elbow. Listen to what Silva says. "When you train this, you do it step by step, and you'll become better and better."  If that's not a TMA mindset then I don't know what is.  





But I could be wrong.  This guy seems to be working on the same things I work on.  He's MMA I'm TMA.





I still could be wrong, but this guy seems to working on some of the same things I've show in Jow Ga





How is my traditional martial arts training and drills more useless than what what these guys are doing?  I'm TMA all the way.  99% of what I do with TMA is to help show people that TMA is functional and relevant to today's hand to hand conflict and fighting environments be it self-defense or competitive.  I personally think that you have only been exposed to TMA or taught by people who only cared about the image of TMA and not the function of it and I've said it before in the past.  I think that mentality is just going to make it more difficult for you to progress.  If I saw some TMA that was crap, I'll be the first one to point it out, provided that I can point it out before 6 other people in here who would say it without being biased.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> For me, I am too old and injured to learn and get into MMA, but I always said I won't last a minute with the new style. I have eyes and I keep my eyes open instead of blindly loyal to what I learned in the past.


Not everyone trained what you train and importantly, I don't think anyone here learned from any of your teachers.


Alan0354 said:


> Hey, I never claim I am good, I have been honest where I am at. I actually show videos of myself so people know exactly where I am at. I only spent a few years, not like you experts that are instructors. BUT I do have eyes to see and judge. I believe in show and tell. One video speaks a 1000 words.


It would be easier to just nicely ask if someone could share a video of their TMA training and conditioning drills.  Kung Fu Wang shows his video, I show my videos.  Ivan shows his videos.  There is literally a section on this site where people have shared their videos.  Some videos are still up and some aren't.  My guess is that you would see more TMA that is functional if you simply ask to see it.  People are happy to share if they know it will help someone out.  But no one likes to feel like they have to Prove something to you, me, or anyone else.  I'm kind of the exception of that since part of my goal is to show that Jow Ga is functional and that it can be used.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> To me, it's a waste of time practicing something that is not useful.


There are a lot of useful skills in CMA that have not been used in MMA yet. For example, the "circular dragging". When you drag your oponent's arm and move in circle, you can change a striking game into a wrestling game right at that moment.

Will you see this skill be used in UFC in the next 10 years? May be, may be not.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are a lot of useful skills in CMA that have not been used in MMA yet. For example, the "circular dragging". When you drag your oponent's arm and move in circle, you can change a striking game into a wrestling game right at that moment.
> 
> Will you see this skill be used in UFC in the next 10 years? May be, may be not.












Similar principle?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Similar principle?


Those are complete different principles.

The "circular dragging (tearing)" is used that you want to have control on your opponent, but you don't want your opponent to have any control on you.

For example,

- You have 2 hands on me and I have 2 hands on you.
- I break apart one of your controls.
- I then break apart your other hand control.
- At this moment I have 1 hand control on you, but you have no hand control on me. If I start to run toward your back, you will be anxiously to get your hand control on me again. I can attack you at that moment because you are 1 step behind of me.

In other words, the circular dragging is used to avoid clinch.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Those are complete different principles.
> 
> The "circular dragging (tearing)" is used that you want to have control on your opponent, but you don't want your opponent to have any control on you.
> 
> ...


Then I don't think we will see that in MMA being that they are comfortable with getting into the clinch and trying to use the clinch for their advantage. Not unless BJJ has something similar.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, I have the week off this week.
> 
> Also, I am surprised how much TMA people keep defending their style instead of being humble and learn when it's proven the new ways work better based on fights. I guess I was working in high tech where changes happen everyday. We learn to adapt, throw away the old knowledge and humbly learn the better way.
> 
> ...


Talk is cheap.  As you like to say.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Talk is cheap.  As you like to say.


I show all I have already for the better or the worst. I said it from the beginning I only have 3 years of training before I injured my back. I show my video what I can do which is not much. BUT I did posted the video. I was very open to show what I have and even asked for advice.

I just want to see what all the experts here can do.

I watch videos posted, but most really look like boxing and TKD type of kicks and punches. Where are all the TMA fancy moves, deep horse stance and fancy stuffs? That's why my first impression watching the fighting contest back in the 60s between all different kung fu styles, they all looked the same in the fight. Just whaling on each other stupid, nothing used in their particular style. All looked the same. I want to see moves of the style used in the fight and actually win, not kick boxing, Muy Thai stuffs while everyone is bragging about their style.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Similar principle?


Are these in Your style?


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Actually the pattern in professional fighting is showing that the old ways work and that young fighters are learning how to use the old ways better.  There's nothing to be humble about.
> 
> MMA for beginners (I doubt that unless the person already had skills).  Same stuff I've seen in traditional martial arts classes.  If this guy was Silva's student, Silva would make the guy train punches and elbows until he can do a decent punch or elbow. Listen to what Silva says. "When you train this, you do it step by step, and you'll become better and better."  If that's not a TMA mindset then I don't know what is.
> 
> ...


Are those in your original TMA, or watching the new fighting and add on to it?

If it is add on, good, you are open to improvement, not stuck with the old stuffs. I would give a lot of credit to people that actually learn and constantly improve instead of being stubborn and discard the new knowledge.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Are these in Your style?


yes and no.
For the first video.  The technique that we use is more like this were we want to twist our opponent.   For me personally, I'm looking to twist the spine because it's an easy way to break structure.  I don't want to spin my opponent around because he will regain his root.   I have video of me light sparring that shows the twisting concept





For the second video.  The technique that we use is very similar.  The bumping that they are showing is the same thing that I train on the heavy bag.  The reason that I train it on the heavy bag is because I use that shoulder as a strike.  I don't have video of me actually doing this.  I can only show how I train it on the bag.



Alan0354 said:


> Are those in your original TMA, or watching the new fighting and add on to it?


Anything that I use will always be TMA.  I've just haven't seen any reason to do "any thing modern" tricking is the only modern martial art that I know.  Lots of stuff that's used in MMA can be found in TMA systems, be it Thai, Chinese, Japanese or European .


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't want to spin my opponent around because he will regain his root.


This is why you need to add in the "leg skill" and don't allow your opponent to have free legs.

IMO, this is the weakest area for all MMA guys used in UFC.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I show all I have already for the better or the worst. I said it from the beginning I only have 3 years of training before I injured my back. I show my video what I can do which is not much. BUT I did posted the video. I was very open to show what I have and even asked for advice.
> 
> I just want to see what all the experts here can do.
> 
> I watch videos posted, but most really look like boxing and TKD type of kicks and punches. Where are all the TMA fancy moves, deep horse stance and fancy stuffs? That's why my first impression watching the fighting contest back in the 60s between all different kung fu styles, they all looked the same in the fight. Just whaling on each other stupid, nothing used in their particular style. All looked the same. I want to see moves of the style used in the fight and actually win, not kick boxing, Muy Thai stuffs while everyone is bragging about their style.


Talk is still cheap.  You just keep on talking.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> You are welcome to train in any way that you like.
> 
> Let me ask you a question:  you come here and spend a lot of time complaining about forms and how you don’t like them.  Ok, you don’t have to like them, you don’t have to train them.  That is your free choice.
> 
> So what are you trying to accomplish?  What do you think will happen, if you just complain hard enough, about how other people train?


@Alan0354 
You have continued to dodge this question.  Do you have an answer, or shall we simply allow the record to show that you refuse to answer?


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## Alan0354 (Jul 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> @Alan0354
> You have continued to dodge this question.  Do you have an answer, or shall we simply allow the record to show that you refuse to answer?


I answered you in detail. This is a debate, I voice my opinion, so did you.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I answered you in detail. This is a debate, I voice my opinion, so did you.


No, you did not.  What do you expect will happen by complaining hard enough about how other people train?


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## Alan0354 (Jul 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> No, you did not.  What do you expect will happen by complaining hard enough about how other people train?


I don't expect anything, you guys are experts, I am only middle of the road, you give me too much credit that people would listen to me. I just voice my opinion.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What do you expect will happen by complaining hard enough about how other people train?


This is a very interested question. Someone asked me, "Why do you want to spend time in online discussion?" My answer to that person was, "There are something that I feel strongly and I want to say."

Why do you come to

A: a Judo forum and complain that people need to train no-gi wrestling?
B: a Taiji forum and complain that people need to train sparring?
C: this forum and complain that form is for teaching/learning/recording only, and form is not for training?
D: this forum and complain that self-defense should also include to protect family members and love one?

My answer to A, B, C, and D are:

Someone has to remind people that there are other things that they may need to consider. Sometimes, someone has to speak up even if his opinion is not popular, and he knows that he doesn't belong to the mainstream.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 3, 2022)

* Sometimes, someone has to speak up even if his opinion is not popular, and he knows that he doesn't belong to the mainstream.*

This remind me that I got A from a speech course when I was in the University of Kansas at Lawrence.

As a foreign student during my first year in US, my English was not very good. During the speech class, the teacher and all the students sat outdoor on the grass and just talked. Most students started their speech with, "I don't know ..." When teacher asked me, "What's your opinion about the limited resource on earth and the over human population problem?" My answer was, "The more population we have, the more genius that we will create, the more change that those genius will solve this problem." I was the only person in that class who expressed such unusual opinion. I got "A" in that course, and I was an "honor student" that semester (I got all A in that semester).


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## Alan0354 (Jul 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is a very interested question. Someone asked me, "Why do you want to spend time in online discussion?" My answer to that person was, "There are something that I feel strongly and I want to say."
> 
> Why do you come to
> 
> ...


And from talking, I get to see you do incorporate kicking and other stuffs into the training, my eyes opened.

My whole point is *not *about who's better or even where the technique came from. Who cares, the point is about improving and I am sure everyone can improve. Nothing wrong of practicing round kick, side kick, jump side kick like in your video, who cares who invented those!!! If it is useful, just use it.

Like my teacher never even want us to use TKD hands, he taught boxing hands and we practice literally kick boxing in the class. Still TKD kicks all the way. He even brought in a Jujitsu instructor once a month to teach us. I think this is how a good school should be.


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> No, you did not.  What do you expect will happen by complaining hard enough about how other people train?



You find out those who can justify their methods and those who can't.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't expect anything, you guys are experts, I am only middle of the road, you give me too much credit that people would listen to me. I just voice my opinion.


Well no, you keep complaining about it.  You must expect some outcome?


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## Alan0354 (Jul 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Well no, you keep complaining about it.  You must expect some outcome?


I think you are not listening( or reading). There's nothing I can do.

What outcome? You are in control of your school, not me. Other people are in control what they do, not me. I just voice my opinion. Seems like you are very defensive. Something only you know why.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why you need to add in the "leg skill" and don't allow your opponent to have free legs.
> 
> IMO, this is the weakest area for all MMA guys used in UFC.


Yep.  That concept of pinning an opponent against the ropes or the ring is probably only applicable to sports that fight in a cage or a ring.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yep.  That concept of pinning an opponent against the ropes or the ring is probably only applicable to sports that fight in a cage or a ring.


People spend so much time trying to control their opponent's arms. People don't spend enough time trying to control their opponent's legs.

Why?

I have asked this questin among Taiji people. They all hate me for saying that.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> People spend so much time trying to control their opponent's arms. People don't spend enough time trying to control their opponent's legs.
> 
> Why?
> 
> I have asked this questin among Taiji people. They all hate me for saying that.


The more I talk, the more I realize myself my issue with forms is on the arm and hand stuffs, not so much on kicking and others. It's like the movements are so fancy, blocking, trapping.....particular WC sticky hands.

If one can have good takedown defense, one can go a long way in fighting. Again I look at those UFC stuffs, so many strikers cannot standing and get taken down, all the striking techniques are out the window when one is flat on it's back.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have asked this questin among Taiji people. They all hate me for saying that.


Which is strange because some of the techniques in the form are for controlling the legs.  I think a lot is lost due to the fact that they are applying what they are training in open competition.  System A vs System A is not the best way to understand a fighting system.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 4, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Again I look at those UFC stuffs, so many strikers cannot standing and get taken down, all the striking techniques are out the window when one is flat on it's back.


Actually you see more people in UFC use take down defense.  If you can't take a person down then all of your ground fighting skills go out the window.


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## Alan0354 (Jul 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Actually you see more people in UFC use take down defense.  If you can't take a person down then all of your ground fighting skills go out the window.


for people that are not good in grappling, it's better to have take down defense and not getting on the ground.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Which is strange because some of the techniques in the form are for controlling the legs.  I think a lot is lost due to the fact that they are applying what they are training in open competition.  System A vs System A is not the best way to understand a fighting system.


In the folllowing clip, if the guy on the left just use the leg skill "shin bite" only, he can take down his opponent.





like this.


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