# Should a Black Belt begin a new art as a White Belt?



## fnorfurfoot (Mar 14, 2007)

I just started studying a new style of MA this week and the instructor told me to wear my black belt to the classes.  I was expecting to start as a white belt and was kind of hoping that I would.  The same thing happened when I started studying GoJu.  The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes.  When I was promoted in his style, I would recieve a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi.

At the time I had a problem with his reasoning.  I may be a black belt in Kenpo, but I was just starting Goju.  It felt wrong.  When the class started or ended, I would have to line up at the white belt end of the room, but my belt visually outranked everyone else in the room accept the head instructor.  Plus I felt like an idiot when brand new students would come to ask me questions and I would have to explain that I was new too.

My new instructor explained his reasoning a little better.  He doesn't really have a plan for me to promote through his system like a regular white belt would.  His system is close enough to what I already do that he feels like I am going to run through it rather quickly.  I just need to learn the particulars of his system.  So instead of having his white and yellow belt students wonder why I was working with blue belts when I was just with them a couple of weeks before, I should keep my current rank and then he can pair me up with whoever he wants at the time without causing confusion.

I was wondering what everone's thoughts were on this.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 14, 2007)

No, I have fantasies of doing the same thing, but lets be realistic; you are a black-belt. "You wear it well" Rod Stewart
Sean


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## Carol (Mar 14, 2007)

I think it's the instructor's decision.

I would have an issue with a black belt demanding to start a new art at someplace other than white but that isn't your case, Fnorfurfoot.

It is his school and you are his student.  He's not only expressed his wishes but he has reasons behind them as well.  I think it's fair that his wishes are respected.


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## grydth (Mar 14, 2007)

I agree with the thread author..... I have personally seen two martial artists I respect highly, one a 4th dan and one a senior brown belt, both start new arts as white belts.

It is a dose of humility, and shows a willingness to have a fresh start that we all could learn from.


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## Tames D (Mar 14, 2007)

I think you should start the new style/system as a white belt. You should be able to blow right through each rank. And this way earn the respect of your fellow students.


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## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

I think, myself, I'd rather start as a white belt. It would be a good symbolic reminder to _me_ not to mindlessly transfer techniques that I'm familiar with to the new art. Even if they only diverge by 20% in technical content, say, I would rather start from the premise that every tech is different and I'm going to learn it as it's properly done in that new art. 

If the tech I'm learning and the tech I already know happen to be congruent, great!that's a freebie. But I'd rather start from the opposite assumption, that things are going to be quite different; that way, I won't blur what significant distinctions there are between the art I'm newly learning and the art I've been practicing for a long time... and that white belt and the regular series of tests and belt-by-belt advancements would, I think, help me keep focused on that learning strategy.


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## Tames D (Mar 14, 2007)

Better to be a bad *** white belt than an embarrassed black belt.


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## tradrockrat (Mar 14, 2007)

It should be up to the instructor in my humble opinion.  As a supposed learned student of the arts we should trust that the instructor knows best for his school.  And we shold be equally happy to wear a white belt as a black because we're there to learn, not put on a fashion show, right?

again, jmho.


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## jdinca (Mar 14, 2007)

I can understand your point of view and I can also understand your instructor's point of view. Your BB is in a different system and you're right in your feelings about starting out as a white belt in the current system. As for your instructor, he doesn't plan on teaching you as he would a "normal" new student. You won't be a white belt for long and will probably advance to an advanced level fairly quickly. Go with it, see what happens.


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## Kacey (Mar 14, 2007)

If I started a new art, I would much rather start as a white belt and work my way up like everyone else.

As an instructor, if someone who held a BB in a different art wanted to take my class, I would, generally, start them at white belt.  The only exception would be for a very similar style - say, if someone from a WTF class transferred into my ITF-style school, in which case they would have to learn our tuls (patterns), techniques and technical details before they could test.  It's entirely possible that a BB in another style would be one of those rare students who is allowed to advance faster than the normal sequence, because they would (one hopes) have better control over how they move, and (one hopes) a greater understanding of MA and body mechanics in general - but they'd still _start_ as white belts.


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## Adept (Mar 15, 2007)

Personally, I think belts are an un-necessary artifice designed to give students short-term goals.

Having said that, a competent black belt in one style will have many of the skills and abilities of most arts down pat. A kick is a kick, a punch is a punch, after all, so it wouldn't make sense to start you off as a white belt.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 15, 2007)

I think it is completely the instructor's choice.  I'm anxious just about going to a different school in the SAME art and having my rank transfer, because I know that there is a vast difference in standards and techniques.

In the end, trust the instructor.


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 15, 2007)

It is the instructor's decision, however, I have a point of view. I was at Nidan and switched styles, to a very similar style ... both SKK. After a preliminary workout, one-on-one with the instructor, I was given the choice to wear my rank. I chose to start at white. My first test in the new style, 5-months in, was from white to green belt, but during that period of time I was able to attend both beginner and advanced classes and prove myself to the student population and therefore had thier respect. I tested for green-stripe the very next week at corporate.

My thoughts on black belt may differ from others, but here goes ... at black belt the real training begins. Up until that time, a person is working primarily basics. A black belt symbolizes that a person is pretty darned good at the basics of the arts. With this line of thinking, can it not then be said that basics are basics, a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick. Some styles may have different names for certain strikes, such as thrust punch and vertical punch, same thing, different art. But all in all, a black belt is a black belt. 

There are black belts of certain arts that have come into my dojo and we've stood toe-to-toe as BBs and had some pretty good sparring sessions, some I won, some I lost. But it goes to prove that a BB is a BB no matter what the style.

Now having said all that, and I'm sure some of the thoughts may be controversial, or at least outside the thinking of others ... given the choice, I would still choose to wear white. I don't care about rank, as far as I'm concerned whether I'm wearing a black belt or a brown leather belt from K-Mart, I know what I know and I can do what I can do. I like the innocence of it all. I like the excitement that comes with the white rank, I'm new, it's a fresh start, rejuvenating.


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## Shaderon (Mar 15, 2007)

I think you have to trust your instructor.  I can see both points of view, but in my eyes, in order to learn from someone in a MA, you have to have trust in that person and I feel it goes as far as trusting them to tell you what belt to wear.   They will have their reasons, possibly some they haven't explained due to class politics which will become evident, or it could be just the simple basics thing, whatever it is, you just gotta trust him.


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## LawDog (Mar 15, 2007)

My point of view is a belt rank, in part, is ability. When a black belt from another system joins my school I have him/her wear an unranked black belt. They still have to learn the system from white belt on up and are tested for each level.
If the transfere student wore a white belt he will still have the ability of a black belt. Most students will compair their ability to another students ability. They may know that he is a black belt but they still see a colored belt in front of them. It is better for all to see the B.B. and know that they are dealing with a person who is very skilled.
Ranking is ability, it transcends a style/system.


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## Drac (Mar 15, 2007)

I must agree with the others as far as it being the Sensei's, Sabum, Sifu etc..etc..choice..As for myself my first day on the floor its a white belt..


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## terryl965 (Mar 15, 2007)

I agree with Drac and the otherson this, It is nice to completly empty your cup when starting over


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## MJS (Mar 15, 2007)

fnorfurfoot said:


> I just started studying a new style of MA this week and the instructor told me to wear my black belt to the classes. I was expecting to start as a white belt and was kind of hoping that I would. The same thing happened when I started studying GoJu. The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes. When I was promoted in his style, I would recieve a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi.
> 
> At the time I had a problem with his reasoning. I may be a black belt in Kenpo, but I was just starting Goju. It felt wrong. When the class started or ended, I would have to line up at the white belt end of the room, but my belt visually outranked everyone else in the room accept the head instructor. Plus I felt like an idiot when brand new students would come to ask me questions and I would have to explain that I was new too.
> 
> ...


 
I could see this going either way.  A) Start fresh, new art, new belt (White) and join in the beginner class.  Will you pick things up a bit quicker?  Sure, although there may be a slight variation to the application of things.  B) Wear the Black Belt, but still join the beginner class.

The Black Belt is already yours and nobody is taking it away.  I recently switched versions of Kenpo.  Parker to Tracy.  99% of the material is the same, although slight variations are present.  I still wear my 3rd Black. Same art (Kenpo).  The class is small and its open rank, so everyone is working on their material.  At this time, I'm half way thru the Green Belt material.  Like your inst. said to you, mine also is not promoting me like he would the other students.  The "tests" are done during the private lesson that I take prior to the class.  Its more of a review of the past and present material.

Your instructor seems like he has your best interests in mind.  If you still have doubts, talk to him again.

Best of luck to you in your new art!:ultracool 

Mike


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## crushing (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm not sure I will add any value to what has already been said, but I'll throw in my $.01.  It's not a full $.02 because I am not yet a black belt.  

I can understand your concern.  Personally, I would feel very uncomfortable not starting out as a white belt in a new martial art, indepedent of how similar it may be to another art in which I have been promoted.

I would not feel so uncomfortable though if my previous experience and training led to earning a black belt in another art also led to quicker promotions in the new art though.  In fact, I think I have been experiencing that in the second art I picked up.

I don't think the belts are the the most important things, they are merely the milemarkers of your journey.  Perhaps this is how the new teacher sees it, and sees this new endeavor as a continuation of your journey as a whole.  With this in mind, I think his use of the color chevron to indicate your progress in his class is a good idea and would (for me if I were in your situation) help offset the uncomfortable nature of wearing the black belt.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 15, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> I agree with Drac and the otherson this, It is nice to completly empty your cup when starting over


 
Absolutely.  That mind set is the key to learning.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2007)

Adept said:


> Personally, I think belts are an un-necessary artifice designed to give students short-term goals


 
 There speaks someone who doesn't understand the crisis times of lack of confidence and the panic of thinking it's never going to come together. Please don't knock belts, it's great if you don't need one but a lot of us do. We need to be told yes you are doing it and yes we need short term goals. Just because it's easy for you doesn't make it so for the rest of us. I'm very proud of eraning my black belt, it took 9 long years and huge effort not just on my part please don't belittle it!
To get it I started again from white belt. I was 1st Kyu Wado Ryu and went across to Tang Soo Do


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## Carol (Mar 15, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> There speaks someone who doesn't understand the crisis times of lack of confidence and the panic of thinking it's never going to come together. Please don't knock belts, it's great if you don't need one but a lot of us do. We need to be told yes you are doing it and yes we need short term goals. Just because it's easy for you doesn't make it so for the rest of us. I'm very proud of eraning my black belt, it took 9 long years and huge effort not just on my part please don't belittle it!
> To get it I started again from white belt. I was 1st Kyu Wado Ryu and went across to Tang Soo Do



What a great story! :asian:  

Kudos to you for toughing it out and sticking to it all.


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## exile (Mar 15, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I was 1st Kyu Wado Ryu and went across to Tang Soo Do



Hey Tez, I don't think I realized that you did KMAsthat's a real kick!!


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## TraditionalTKD (Mar 15, 2007)

How in the world could you start practicing a new art and NOT be a white belt? A black belt in, say, Tae Kwon Do, has nothing to do with a black belt in aikido. You start in a new style, you start over again regardless of rank, end of discussion.
Not only that, but many times a black belt in one art's organization means nothing in another organization but same art. A black belt in Yoshokai aikido would not be recognized in a different aikido organization.


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## crushing (Mar 15, 2007)

TraditionalTKD said:


> How in the world could you start practicing a new art and NOT be a white belt? A black belt in, say, Tae Kwon Do, has nothing to do with a black belt in aikido. You start in a new style, you start over again regardless of rank, end of discussion.
> Not only that, but many times a black belt in one art's organization means nothing in another organization but same art. A black belt in Yoshokai aikido would not be recognized in a different aikido organization.


 
I agree with you on that, but that is not what is happening in this case.  fnorfurfoot is NOT going into the new MA as a black belt, but will be allowed to wear the black belt because it has been earned.  fnorfurfoot's rank in the new MA will be indicated by the color chevron on the sleeve.


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## TraditionalTKD (Mar 15, 2007)

Shouldn't matter. I tested for 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do last year. When I go to my aikido class, nothing on my dogi indicates this. They are aware of my rank, but it has no bearing to them. I wear a white dogi and color belt like everyone else.


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## PictonMA (Mar 15, 2007)

I've been training in the martial arts for 25years now, every time I've tried a new art I've begun again as a white belt.

Just because I have Dan rank in my core art (Goju Ryu) it has no bearing on everything else I've chosen to train in other than to a) provide me with a base level of mental and physical fitness that most true beginners lack and b) create within me sometimes good and sometimes bad habbits that either help or hinder my learning a new art.  My Dan rank in one art is irrelevant.

Also, I found this to be odd:



> Having said that, a competent black belt in one style will have many of the skills and abilities of most arts down pat. A kick is a kick, a punch is a punch, after all, so it wouldn't make sense to start you off as a white belt.


 
Maybe I'm just crotchety but a kick is not a kick and a punch is not a punch between various arts.  I have seen more people that were taught poorly or just plain old differently then were taught the same when comparing styles.

To use a bit of an anaology, to me it's like comparing fruit - obvisouly when comparing the apples (striking arts) to the oranges (locking / grappling arts) to the peaches (weapon arts) there are very stark difference and one would think that it is obvious that they are different enough to remain appart in terms of title and classification.

What gets me is that people seem to be more willing to blur the lines when comparing apples, me not so much so.  Apples can be as different from each other as from other fruit - red delicious (Goju Ryu), golden delicious (Shotokan), spartan (Tae Kwon Do), empire (Kempo), macintish (Muay Thai) etc etc.

Just because you are a really tasy red delicous doesn't mean that you would be any good as a macintosh ;p


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## Carol (Mar 15, 2007)

TraditionalTKD said:


> Shouldn't matter. I tested for 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do last year. When I go to my aikido class, nothing on my dogi indicates this. They are aware of my rank, but it has no bearing to them. I wear a white dogi and color belt like everyone else.



But your Aikido sensei did not specifically tell you to wear your black belt to class, correct?


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## Mark L (Mar 15, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> IAfter a preliminary workout, one-on-one with the instructor, I was given the choice to wear my rank. I chose to start at white. My first test in the new style, 5-months in, was from white to green belt, but during that period of time I was able to attend both beginner and advanced classes and prove myself to the student population and therefore had thier respect.


My experience is virtually identical to this, though it followed  a 15 year hiatus rather than a style switch.  I think it is fairly easy to guage a practitioners skill level simply by watching them move, regardless of the belt color.


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## morph4me (Mar 15, 2007)

I took a different art for a short time while I was still training in my main art. My instructor told me to wear my black belt, but I never felt comfortable wearing a black belt when I didn't know particulars of that art. I think that skill, or the lack of it, will show through no matter what color belt you wear. In my opinion, if I do start another art, I want to start as a white belt.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 15, 2007)

Key word here - begin.
If you are a beginner, you should act like one. And if we are starting up another style, then we are beginners at it.
If its the teachers of the class wish that you wear a black belt there, then wear one. Its his class. 
If the choice were up to me personally, I'd wear a white belt. Its always been the belt Ive felt most comfortable wearing.


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## avm247 (Mar 15, 2007)

Your wanting to start at and wear a White Belt is a testament to your strong character.

Your TKD instructor's wish to recognize your experience (albeit in another art) is a testament to his/her strong character.  

Respect the wishes of your instructor,  if it doesn't work out, privately ask to speak with your instructor after class and express your concern.  It seems to me that he, your instructor has already thought this through; trust his or her judgement.


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 15, 2007)

Mark L said:


> My experience is virtually identical to this, though it followed a 15 year hiatus rather than a style switch. I think it is fairly easy to guage a practitioners skill level simply by watching them move, regardless of the belt color.


 
I had an 11 year hiatus, so we were in the same boat. As far as the style switch, the new style was a breakoff of my old style, so the change was mainly of name.

Deal was, in my case, my instructor left it up to me and I made the choice to wear white. If my instructor had simply told me to wear my rank, I would have expressed my side but honored his decision.


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## Nomad (Mar 15, 2007)

We've had folks start in our style after getting a black belt (usually some time in the past) in another style or art.  Our instructor usually will have a look at them, and ask them to wear a mid-range belt (eg. green).  This is because their skill level is obviously way above beginning white belts, but the student still has to learn our requirements for the various ranks, and more importantly, he or she has to earn the trust of the other seniors.  

If they are good, they can move fairly rapidly through the ranks once they learn the katas and other requirements.  Our instructor does the exact same thing for some of *our* students who progressed to a high rank before taking an extended break... when they come back, they are asked to wear the lower belt until they have sharpened up their skills again.

As a new white belt, it would be depressing to see someone wearing the same beginner belt doing things SO much better than you, and catching on quicker... they frequently won't realize that the other person has prior training unless told.

That said, if the art you're starting is radically different from the one you trained in before, you should try to start as a complete beginner... because you are (an example might be Shotokan karate to BJJ... a few principles might carry over, but almost none of the techniques are likely to overlap).


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## Adept (Mar 15, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> There speaks someone who doesn't understand the crisis times of lack of confidence and the panic of thinking it's never going to come together.



You didn't need the belt. People had these problems long before coloured belts were used to denote ranks, and still have them in styles that don't use belts at all.



PictonMA said:


> IMaybe I'm just crotchety but a kick is not a kick and a punch is not a punch between various arts. I have seen more people that were taught poorly or just plain old differently then were taught the same when comparing styles.



Why concentrate on the differences? For the most part, I've found people who nit-pick differences in similar techniques are missing the point. It doesn't matter if your foot is pointing "here" or over "there", so long as the end result is the other person getting hurt.

It's a testament to just how flexible these things are that there are dozens of different ways to kick and punch, all of them being effective. A punch from a boxer is going to look very different to a punch from a karateka, or a muay thai fighter, or a TKD fighter. They'll look different, but they'll all be the same in their intent, they'll be similar in their execution, and they'll be nearly identical in their results.

It doesn't matter if you kick or punch exactly the same way as your new style does. So long as you kick or punch *well*.

Now, I know there are some people out there who, for whatever reason, want to learn how a particular style does something simply for the sake of learning it. In those cases, it is beneficial to forget everything you have previously learned. Myself, I am more interested in learning the best way for *me* to do things, and if that means I am throwing boxing punches and BJJ takedowns in a TKD class, then that is what will happen...


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## green meanie (Mar 15, 2007)

I think a person should be humble enough to be willing to wear a white belt when starting to study something new... 

...but also humble enough to respect their instructor's decision when told they should wear their black belt. 

:asian:


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 15, 2007)

Sorry, maybe it's just me, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but how many ways can there be to throw a front punch, or a front ball kick effectively? Anyone, please list them ... enlighten me.


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## Jenna (Mar 15, 2007)

grydth said:


> I agree with the thread author..... I have personally seen two martial artists I respect highly, one a 4th dan and one a senior brown belt, both start new arts as white belts.
> 
> It is a dose of humility, and shows a willingness to have a fresh start that we all could learn from.



Hey there   this is very well put and unfortunately I think there are more than a few holding the rank of black belt and above who suffer from a complete lack of humility so it is nice to see when it does actually rear its head!

Good post

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Mar 15, 2007)

green meanie said:


> I think a person should be humble enough to be willing to wear a white belt when starting to study something new...
> 
> ...but also humble enough to respect their instructor's decision when told they should wear their black belt.
> 
> :asian:


Hey GM   personally I think it is a complete folly for a novice practitioner of any art to wear a black belt whether of their own accord or at the behest of their instructor.  Surely a BB signifies both technical competence and a degree of personal mastery..  either one of these on their own signify a BB only partially therefore wearing the belt as a novice to an art is plain wrong imnsvho..
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## green meanie (Mar 15, 2007)

Jenna said:


> Hey GM  personally I think it is a complete folly for a novice practitioner of any art to wear a black belt whether of their own accord or at the behest of their instructor. Surely a BB signifies both technical competence and a degree of personal mastery.. either one of these on their own signify a BB only partially therefore wearing the belt as a novice to an art is plain wrong imnsvho..
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
I think it's a big mistake too. When I went to a Kenpo school wanting to study I was a brown belt in Jujutsu. When I was told to wear my brown belt I hated it. But I felt if I was gonna study there I had to respect the instructors decision and I still feel that way. But if I had it to do over again I would've found another school.

:asian:


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## Marginal (Mar 15, 2007)

fnorfurfoot said:


> My new instructor explained his reasoning a little better. He doesn't really have a plan for me to promote through his system like a regular white belt would. His system is close enough to what I already do that he feels like I am going to run through it rather quickly. I just need to learn the particulars of his system. So instead of having his white and yellow belt students wonder why I was working with blue belts when I was just with them a couple of weeks before, I should keep my current rank and then he can pair me up with whoever he wants at the time without causing confusion.


 
I think in arts that are fairly similar, there's usually no reason to start over at white, since most of your skills will carry over and its more an issue of picking up the new flavor more than learning new techniques etc. If the arts were signifigantly different (say, you moved into Judo) then I'd think it would be silly to wear a BB while you're essentially starting from scratch in that art.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 15, 2007)

fnorfurfoot said:


> I just started studying a new style of MA this week and the instructor told me to wear my black belt to the classes.  I was expecting to start as a white belt and was kind of hoping that I would.  The same thing happened when I started studying GoJu.  The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes.  When I was promoted in his style, I would recieve a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi.
> 
> At the time I had a problem with his reasoning.  I may be a black belt in Kenpo, but I was just starting Goju.  It felt wrong.  When the class started or ended, I would have to line up at the white belt end of the room, but my belt visually outranked everyone else in the room accept the head instructor.  Plus I felt like an idiot when brand new students would come to ask me questions and I would have to explain that I was new too.
> 
> ...



I'm of the same mind as you when I start at a new location. I've started over now 4x and I won't have it any other way.

For my own students, I allow them to wear whatever uniform they like for classes. If they choose to go through the ranking structure I require them to wear the commensurate rank in our system to their skill level in our system. Thus far it hasn't been an issue - because everyone thus far has voluntarily taken off their previous rank and started at white. I choose to recognize people who have previous training by giving them a belt that has a black stripe running the length of the belt. White w/black stripe, yellow w/black stripe, etc. This is the indicator that serves several purposes. These people generally pick up things very quickly and for the other new people that start at the same time as the ones with previous training, seeing their meteoric progress comparitively speaking sometimes has a detrimental effect. When they are explained that the black stripe means black belt from another style, the pressure goes away and they refocus on their training like they're supposed to.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 15, 2007)

PictonMA said:


> Maybe I'm just crotchety but a kick is not a kick and a punch is not a punch between various arts.  I have seen more people that were taught poorly or just plain old differently then were taught the same when comparing styles.
> 
> To use a bit of an anaology, to me it's like comparing fruit - obvisouly when comparing the apples (striking arts) to the oranges (locking / grappling arts) to the peaches (weapon arts) there are very stark difference and one would think that it is obvious that they are different enough to remain appart in terms of title and classification.
> 
> ...




VERY WELL SAID!!!


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## dianhsuhe (Mar 15, 2007)

Good thread!  I started a new Martial Art as a white belt after I had earned BB in another.  I was excited to empty my cup and fill it up again...Heck I looked forward to just "taking in" the class and material instead of teaching all of the time.

In your case however I would do as the instructor says-


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## Sukerkin (Mar 15, 2007)

An interesting thread and a wide array of opinions made known, which is always good :tup:.

For myself, having only progressed to black sash/shodan in two completely different arts (kung fu and iaido) this has never been an issue, particularly as we don't wear outward signs of rank in iaido anyway .

However, in my early years in Lau (I think I was a green belt when this happened) I ran into a 'new-starter' who, unbeknownst to me, was a black belt, shotokan karate.  In the free sparring session, I was told to help this pre-'white sash' fellow out and show him whats what.  He proceeded to wipe the floor with me in front of everyone, much to my embarassment (remember I was young enough to care about such things as ego back then ).

What I'm trying to say is that wearing the outward signs of previous rank is not only for that persons benefit but also for those they train with.  I think that the decision under discussion (wear your original rank with a shoulder flash to show rank-in-style) is a good solution to a difficult problem.  The other students know you are an experienced artist and also know what you have learned of your newly adopted style.  No-ones in the dark or makes false assumptions and, as long as your sensei makes it known you haven't 'demanded' you wear your BB, everyones happy.

As to whether 'belts' are necessary {other than for holding up your trousers :lol:}, I have to agree with *Tez* that they are invaluable to a Western, goal-oriented, mind set.  They give a tangible sense of progression by small steps and also allow for comparison with your fellows.  

Imagine if in the dojo you were thrown in with a bunch of people, all of differing abilities but you had no idea what was right, what was wrong, who was good, who was a beginner et al.  

The rankings are to help people along by not giving them a cliff to scale all in one go.  If you're a white belt training with your fellows and look over and see the 4th Dans going at it, you're going to think "I'll never be able to do that!".  But if you see the yellow belts there instead, doing similar stuff to you but just a bit better, you think "I could do that if I practice a bit harder".

Of course, that falls down a bit in iai because we don't have that helpful visual clue.  However, we know what rank we're all at anyhow because the class sizes are much smaller than an empty handed art.  Plus, if we're being formal, you know where you stand, literally, because that is determined by seniority  .


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## scottcatchot (Mar 15, 2007)

I think it is good that you are concerned with this, it shows that you are not hung up on having a BB. I do agree that you should respect your instructors wishes. If the styles are as similar as it sounds, then you will progress at a very rapid speed and so you would not have the white belt long anyway. Besides, The important thing is that your mind is open to being taught and you have a humble attitude. If you approached the training with the attitude that you already know everything because you have a black belt or judge everything you are shown against your other art, then your attitude will hinder your learning regardless of the color of belt you wear. Based on your posts thi does not seem to be the case, therefore your training should be enjoyable and beneficial regardless of the color of the belt you wear. It is the training and new skills that you are after anyway. So roll with it and have fun. Besides there are lessons  that can be learned just from following the instructors wishes on this when it is something you may feel should be done another way... Think of it as Character building.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 15, 2007)

I recently ran into someone who simply refused to discuss his previous training.  His feeling is basically that he has no experience in the system we were talking about and previous experience didn't matter.  Seems to me that one answer - if you are concerned about it - is "I have some experience" and just stop there.  There is no need to share more unless you are specifically pressed for it.  I think most would be content if you simply say that you feel uncomfortable discussing your previous experience and rank.

And if you were highly ranked in another system....it will show.


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## Brother John (Mar 16, 2007)

Two ways to look at it:
#1: FIRST and foremost.............your new instructor asks you to wear a rank while training with him, then that's what you do.
(Pretty Simple)
#2: I'd personally want you to wear the Black Belt IF it was in a martial art that was related to or very similar to the one that I teach. IF, however, your art that you hold a black belt in were...say......Tae Kwan Do and you wanted to study Jujutsu with me.....yeah..............you'd start at white.

In the end though, #1 is the RULE, as I see it.

Your Brother
John


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## Shotochem (Mar 16, 2007)

I switched to Kempo from Shotokan and happily wore a whitebelt.  I would not have it any other way.  I did not know anything about the system, its concepts and philosophies.  To represent myself as anything other than a beginner in my new style would make me no better than the nearest MCDojo.

     Yes, I have been going through the ranks much quicker than my other dojomates.  Whenever I see them getting frustrated at not getting something after I pick thing up so quickly, I quickly encourage them and remind them that I have trained before and have been in the same place they are now.  I have the complete respect of the senior ranks and I am allowed to train in the advanced level classes.  We all learn with each other and from each other there are no ego problems in our all adult classes.
                                                                        -Marc-


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## fnorfurfoot (Mar 16, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> I recently ran into someone who simply refused to discuss his previous training. His feeling is basically that he has no experience in the system we were talking about and previous experience didn't matter. Seems to me that one answer - if you are concerned about it - is "I have some experience" and just stop there. There is no need to share more unless you are specifically pressed for it. I think most would be content if you simply say that you feel uncomfortable discussing your previous experience and rank.


If it was at any other school, I probably would have gone this route.  The problem here is that I have been associated with this group for over 5 years.  I have gone to seminars and every year I bring my students to their tournaments.  There is now way I could have hidden my rank from them.


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## fnorfurfoot (Mar 16, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> I choose to recognize people who have previous training by giving them a belt that has a black stripe running the length of the belt. White w/black stripe, yellow w/black stripe, etc. This is the indicator that serves several purposes. These people generally pick up things very quickly and for the other new people that start at the same time as the ones with previous training, seeing their meteoric progress comparitively speaking sometimes has a detrimental effect. When they are explained that the black stripe means black belt from another style, the pressure goes away and they refocus on their training like they're supposed to.


I like this idea and will probably use it whenever the situation becomes reversed.


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 16, 2007)

OK, I have to chime in again ... 

I truly believe in starting again at white, I like it, and I really like the idea of a black stripe running the length of the belt, that's cool ... in any case, it should be considered that a person with a previous ranking of BB is going to be different from a person off the street. Why? Cause of the previous training. 
Send me into a TKD studio and I may not kick as well as they do, but I may give them all kinds of problems that they aren't used too. A person with previous training will have a really hard time not adapting thier previously learned techniques when the gloves are on, I don't care what style it is. The instructor and other students need to know that thier is previous experience, and advanced experience at that. How it is done is up to the individual school. But as I've seen here in at least one post, refusing to talk about it? I may end up sending that person back to the street. It needs to be known, if for no other reason than the safety of the other students.

OK, that's enough for now ...


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 16, 2007)

An instructor is showing disrepect for his students' many years of hard work when someone comes in off the street and wears a Black Belt.   

Now, if the alien Black Belt comes from another style, wears the uniform and patches of the other style, making it clear that he is representing himself as a Black Belt in the other style, then you can avoid the disrespect to your students of enabling him to wear his rank.

Every style is like a language.  You can get a PhD in English.  That does not entitle you to walk around the French class posing as a PhD in the French language.  

Bottom-line is that a Black Belt in one style does not entitle you to wear a Black Belt in another.


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## Marginal (Mar 16, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> Sorry, maybe it's just me, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but how many ways can there be to throw a front punch, or a front ball kick effectively? Anyone, please list them ... enlighten me.


One or several depending on your point of view.


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## jks9199 (Mar 17, 2007)

Adept said:


> Why concentrate on the differences? For the most part, I've found people who nit-pick differences in similar techniques are missing the point. It doesn't matter if your foot is pointing "here" or over "there", so long as the end result is the other person getting hurt.
> 
> It's a testament to just how flexible these things are that there are dozens of different ways to kick and punch, all of them being effective. A punch from a boxer is going to look very different to a punch from a karateka, or a muay thai fighter, or a TKD fighter. They'll look different, but they'll all be the same in their intent, they'll be similar in their execution, and they'll be nearly identical in their results.
> 
> ...



There can be very important differences in the way one style throws a punch versus the way another style does; the mechanics may feed different options or set up different follow ups.  I agree that there are only so many ways to throw a punch, kick, etc. -- but I disagree that the differences are unimportant when learning a particular style.  You cant write a sentence in English using the Cyrillic alphabet or Norse runes; if you're learning Tae Kwon Do, you have to learn their approach to throwing a punch, not use the mechanics you learned in Shaolin Kung Fu or boxing.


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## jks9199 (Mar 17, 2007)

With regard to the original question...

If I start training in a new style -- I'll wear a white belt.  And I'll do things there, in their way.  Day one won't be "wipe the floor with the newbie showing me the basics" because I don't know their basics; I'll be trying to use their basics.  After all, I'm in their house, not mine.  

Our chief instructor frequently used white "humility belts" made of simple rope in group trainings as a reminder to all of us why we were there, and the attitude we should have.  I've used the same principal in some of my own teaching since.


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## blackxpress (Mar 17, 2007)

The school where I used to train closed down.  4 of us, including our Sensei, joined a dojo of a different style.  Our sensei asked to start out as a white belt but the new sensei refused his request.  Although he has a lot to learn in making the transition he is still a black belt and sensei insists he receive the proper respect.  The other night I was watching my old sensei running kata.  The kata was new to him but I noticed that he ran it better than the other students even though most of them were very familiar with it.  His moves were sharper and more powerful than theirs and his focus was awesome.  New material comes to him very quickly.  He's a black belt for a reason.


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## Marginal (Mar 17, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There can be very important differences in the way one style throws a punch versus the way another style does; the mechanics may feed different options or set up different follow ups. I agree that there are only so many ways to throw a punch, kick, etc. -- but I disagree that the differences are unimportant when learning a particular style. You cant write a sentence in English using the Cyrillic alphabet or Norse runes; if you're learning Tae Kwon Do, you have to learn their approach to throwing a punch, not use the mechanics you learned in Shaolin Kung Fu or boxing.


Well, moving between one striking style to the next is more like moving from writing technical reports to grant writing. You're still using the same language, mostly the same grammar, the same punctuation. The focus has shifted somewhat, and possibly the style guidelines. That's not the same thing as being asked to write a love poem in Spanish at all.


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## crushing (Mar 17, 2007)

fnorfurfoot said:


> I just started studying a new style of MA this week and the instructor told me to wear my black belt to the classes. I was expecting to start as a white belt and was kind of hoping that I would. The same thing happened when I started studying GoJu. The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes. *When I was promoted in his style, I would recieve a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi.*
> 
> [...]


 
I've seen so many posts in this thread saying that fnorfurfoot should start out as a white belt in the new art.

I take the highlighted sentence in *red* in the quoted section above to mean the fnorfurfoot *is* starting out as a white belt in the new art.


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## green meanie (Mar 18, 2007)

crushing said:


> I've seen so many posts in this thread saying that fnorfurfoot should start out as a white belt in the new art.
> 
> I take the highlighted sentence in *red* in the quoted section above to mean the fnorfurfoot *is* starting out as a white belt in the new art.


 
It doesn't look that way to me. Right above what you highlighted he says, *"The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes." *In what you highlighted he says, *"When I was promoted in his style, I would receive a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi." *I'm taking that to mean that he's wearing his black belt and sewing yellow - orange - green - etc. chevrons onto the sleeve of his gi to show where he is in the new curriculum.

:asian:


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## Adept (Mar 18, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There can be very important differences in the way one style throws a punch versus the way another style does; the mechanics may feed different options or set up different follow ups.



Absolutely, and a student should always have the reasoning explained to them.

"We do it this way, because of this"

And then the student should decide whether or not that different way is for them.


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## jks9199 (Mar 18, 2007)

Adept said:


> Absolutely, and a student should always have the reasoning explained to them.
> 
> "We do it this way, because of this"
> 
> And then the student should decide whether or not that different way is for them.


I actually think this is tied to the whole belt issue.  I envision 2 different training relationships at work; that of a visitor, who only experiments with another system, and that of the person who chooses to learn a different system.  Each involves a very different mindset.  The visitor can pick and choose; they simply have to "play along" for the few hours they spend with working with the new system.  For example, say I were to attend a few judo classes, simply to develop better breakfalls and learn a throw or two.  I'm not trying to learn judo; I'm getting a few pieces of judo and grafting them into my home system.  But, if I decide that I want to learn judo, I have to start at the bottom, and learn their ways of doing things, and I have to accept their ways as long as I choose to train in judo. (An analogy might be made between ordering _a la carte_ and ordering a dinner platter.)  If I'm experimenting or visiting, I may wear my black belt.  But if I'm studying the system -- I'll wear a white belt.

If you choose to train in a system, you accept that you have to do things their way, at least while you are training in it.  You don't, no matter your rank, have the option to decide which part you'll accept and which you'll reject; you're training in the system and that means accepting the whole thing.  Of course, this is just my opinion...  But if you want to learn about or learn a particular technique from another system, rather than actually train in and learn the system -- then you can pick and choose.  You can dump what you don't like.


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## crushing (Mar 18, 2007)

green meanie said:


> It doesn't look that way to me. Right above what you highlighted he says, *"The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes." *In what you highlighted he says, *"When I was promoted in his style, I would receive a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi." *I'm taking that to mean that he's wearing his black belt and sewing yellow - orange - green - etc. chevrons onto the sleeve of his gi to show where he is in the new curriculum.
> 
> :asian:


 

Hi green meanie,

Perhaps I misunderstand, or I wasn't clear.  You say it doesn't look that way to you, but then I don't see disagreement in your explanation.

The chevrons will be symbolic of the achieved belt rank, rather than the belt itself in the new art.  fnorfurfoot is not a black belt in the new art despite wearing a black belt.

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2007)

Allright you negative repers; the whole point of wearing the back belt is for the other students not you. geez... rep away.


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## green meanie (Mar 18, 2007)

crushing said:


> Hi green meanie,
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstand, or I wasn't clear. You say it doesn't look that way to you, but then I don't see disagreement in your explanation.
> 
> ...


 
Hehe. No worries. Maybe I'm just the confused one then. :asian:


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## Adept (Mar 18, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> If you choose to train in a system, you accept that you have to do things their way, at least while you are training in it.  You don't, no matter your rank, have the option to decide which part you'll accept and which you'll reject;



While I agree with the rest of your post, I strongly disagree with this part.

If you are taught something you don't like, ask to have it explained to you. If it still doesn't seem right, or you have a better option from another art, then drop the orginal technique and use the better one. Sticking with Judo just because it's Judo and you are learning Judo so you should only be doing Judo only serves to limit yourself.


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## fnorfurfoot (Mar 18, 2007)

Adept said:


> While I agree with the rest of your post, I strongly disagree with this part.
> 
> If you are taught something you don't like, ask to have it explained to you. If it still doesn't seem right, or you have a better option from another art, then drop the orginal technique and use the better one. Sticking with Judo just because it's Judo and you are learning Judo so you should only be doing Judo only serves to limit yourself.


I agree with what you are saying from a personal knowledge point of view, but I believe that if you are training in a particular system you should follow that system's rules.  If you want to alter techniques on your own time because it is what you personally believe is right, by all means go for it.  But when it comes to test time, you need to do what you were taught.  If you dissagree so strongly with they way of doing things, you need to find a different instructor.


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## jks9199 (Mar 18, 2007)

Adept said:


> While I agree with the rest of your post, I strongly disagree with this part.
> 
> If you are taught something you don't like, ask to have it explained to you. If it still doesn't seem right, or you have a better option from another art, then drop the orginal technique and use the better one. Sticking with Judo just because it's Judo and you are learning Judo so you should only be doing Judo only serves to limit yourself.


You skipped the second part of my paragraph:


> But if you want to learn about or learn a particular technique from another system, rather than actually train in and learn the system -- then you can pick and choose. You can dump what you don't like.



I'm distinguishing between two very different approaches to learning martial arts.  One is about learning the system; not just a few moves, but the hows and whys and wherefores that go into it and underlie it.  The other is about developing your own personal fighting style, and finding what works for you, based on whatever combination of training, experience, insight, skills, and wisdom you bring to the table.  Neither is superior to the other; both are effective.  And I've used both in my own training; in fact, I believe everyone has the responsibility as their training advances to develop their own personal style.  The issue becomes one of where you start.  

Say that you enjoy learning parts of various systems; fantastic.  There are lots of very skilled fighters who do that.  And, as you do that, you have every right to pick and choose what you integrate into your personal tool box.  But, others choose to learn "the system", and if you make that choice, you have to accept that you have to learn it their way, in my opinion.  You can't decide to only learn the parts that you like; then you're not learning the system.  If you don't like what they're teaching or how they're explaining it -- you have a simple choice.  Go elsewhere.  Or -- if you're concern is only to learn something about the system or a particular set of moves, that's fine.  Then you can reject what you don't like...  

And -- after you've learned their principles, you absolutely can integrate them with your previous training.  In fact, you absolutely should be doing that -- in my opinion, again.  I know I'm not alone in this view; consult Forrest Morgan's book *Living the Martial Way* to find at least one person who agrees with me.


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## Marginal (Mar 19, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> And -- after you've learned their principles, you absolutely can integrate them with your previous training. In fact, you absolutely should be doing that -- in my opinion, again. I know I'm not alone in this view; consult Forrest Morgan's book *Living the Martial Way* to find at least one person who agrees with me.


 
But, Forrest Morgan is of the belief that someone trained in one art shouldn't waste time in formal study of a similar art since they're redundant. He said if I remember correctly that you should just find a few BB's from the style of interest and train informally with them to see what they do differently.


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## Grasshopper22 (Apr 11, 2012)

In some martial arts, once you earn your black belt the black belt your instructor gives you is made of satin and it's white underneath so eventually the black wears off and the master become the student again to complete the cycle.


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## clfsean (Apr 11, 2012)

Dude... this is the second one today you've resurrected. 5 years on this one...


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2012)

In the past, I generally start back at white belt whenever I join a new school, because I think it is important to start from the beginning in order to understand my new teacher's perspective on the art. I certainly start at white belt if I am starting a new style in a new school. That is a no brainer.


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## chinto (Apr 14, 2012)

That is normally up to the head instructor of the school. many will have you wear your belt if you are a brown belt or above.  but then some will not. Like I said its up to your instructor.  when I started the second style of karate, I arrived with my gi and a white belt in my bag and in the bottom my other belt because I forgot to take it out. I leave the belt in the bag when i take it home to wash the gi so I do not forget it.  anyway I was approached by my new Sensei, before class as i tied the white belt.  He asked me if I had my brown belt with me? I answered yes, and he told me to put it on. I said I would but line up with the white belts, his answer was " if I wanted you to line up there I would have you wear a white belt."  I did learn the kata and things quickly and he promoted me differently then a new student.  so it is not unusual to have an upper belt treated that way depending on the Sensei.


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## Haakon (Apr 14, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> In some martial arts, once you earn your black belt the black belt your instructor gives you is made of satin and it's white underneath so eventually the black wears off and the master become the student again to complete the cycle.



I've never heard of that, sounds rather like something from a fortune cookie. Who told you, or where did you read it? Black belts naturally fade over the years, they're usually just dyed cotton afterall, so many do get white wear marks, but I've never heard of that symbolizing anything other than someone who's been a black belt for a dang long time.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 14, 2012)

If I were a Black Belt in TKD, that doesnt mean I should be able to go out and start as anything but a White Belt in Judo, if I were to go do Judo for some reason.


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## frank raud (Apr 15, 2012)

Haakon said:


> I've never heard of that, sounds rather like something from a fortune cookie. Who told you, or where did you read it? Black belts naturally fade over the years, they're usually just dyed cotton afterall, so many do get white wear marks, but I've never heard of that symbolizing anything other than someone who's been a black belt for a dang long time.


First you start with a white belt, and never wash it. It gets yellow with sweat, you start working groundwork and it becomes green, eventually turning to black, then as it ages further, it sheds the outer layer and becomes white again. Nice story, too bad it isn't true.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Apr 15, 2012)

I most likely think that a black belt from another Martial Art system who is going to train at a different art should start at white belt because the curriculum is at least almost completely different from the previous system he trained in, but nonetheless he or she can progress faster and possibly earn black belt within two years. 

However, let's you have earned a black belt certification in Meibukan Goju-ryu and then change organizations, but not systems to the IOGKF Goju-ryu, then it is not necessary to start back to white belt and work your way up to black belt because the curriculum for both organizations are exactly the same, only the techniques and applications of those techniques from templates can be a little different.


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## chinto (Apr 15, 2012)

Haakon said:


> I've never heard of that, sounds rather like something from a fortune cookie. Who told you, or where did you read it? Black belts naturally fade over the years, they're usually just dyed cotton afterall, so many do get white wear marks, but I've never heard of that symbolizing anything other than someone who's been a black belt for a dang long time.



that is indeed why the under part of the black belt is white. It does symbolize becoming the student again.  Also I can tell you that when you do teach you learn more then you teach more often then not. sometimes its because you find you see something about a technique or kata you had not seen before, and others its that you have to brake it down completely to explain some question that never would have come to you in that context to that part of a kata or what have you.

Either way you are again the student in some ways! and its really cool!!


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## shima (Apr 21, 2012)

chinto said:


> Also I can tell you that when you do teach you learn more then you teach more often then not. sometimes its because you find you see something about a technique or kata you had not seen before, and others its that you have to brake it down completely to explain some question that never would have come to you in that context to that part of a kata or what have you.



As my instructor says "to teach is to learn twice." It's so true. 

My first black belt is in Karate. When I later moved states and started studying Tae Kwon Do, the instructor there let me retain my black belt and line up with the black belts (But learn all the new curriculum of course). After almost 3 years once I'd perfected their kata's for 1st degree black belt, I tested for my black there. A year later I moved states again and this time started to study Kenpo. Again I was allowed to retain my black belt(s) from my previous schools but this time I had to line up in order of my rank in their style. It's really all about the instructors preference how they treat your black belt. I'm ok with whatever the instructors preference is.


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## Buka (Apr 21, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> I actually think this is tied to the whole belt issue.  I envision 2 different training relationships at work; that of a visitor, who only experiments with another system, and that of the person who chooses to learn a different system.  Each involves a very different mindset.  The visitor can pick and choose; they simply have to "play along" for the few hours they spend with working with the new system.  For example, say I were to attend a few judo classes, simply to develop better breakfalls and learn a throw or two.  I'm not trying to learn judo; I'm getting a few pieces of judo and grafting them into my home system.  But, if I decide that I want to learn judo, I have to start at the bottom, and learn their ways of doing things, and I have to accept their ways as long as I choose to train in judo. (An analogy might be made between ordering _a la carte_ and ordering a dinner platter.)  If I'm experimenting or visiting, I may wear my black belt.  But if I'm studying the system -- I'll wear a white belt.
> 
> If you choose to train in a system, you accept that you have to do things their way, at least while you are training in it.  You don't, no matter your rank, have the option to decide which part you'll accept and which you'll reject; you're training in the system and that means accepting the whole thing.  Of course, this is just my opinion...  But if you want to learn about or learn a particular technique from another system, rather than actually train in and learn the system -- then you can pick and choose.  You can dump what you don't like.



Forgive my tardiness, but I just read this post for the first time.

Pure Gospel.


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## Kenlee25 (Apr 21, 2012)

Well, I think it largely depends. If a practitioner is transitioning to a completely different art that is not similar  ( Taekwondo to say, Kung fu for example ) Then they should start as white. They will be a skilled white belt and pull out strategies from different styles, but they are still new to art. But if you are transitioning from Taekwondo to say Karate, two arts that share numerous similarities, or even say goju ryu karate to kyukoshin karate, you should maintain some of your level. 

I don't believe that you should keep your black belt in that case, but you shouldn't have to start all the way over. Instead, I believe you should start at around either half way or 3/4 the way there. You must learn all of the new corriculum of course, but you should still be put at a rank in which your skills are tested rather than having to trudge through months or years of doing things you already know how to do ( A kick in taekwondo is very similar if not the same as a kick in karate for example. The application is just different. Application doesn't take long to learn ). 

It's a little different with sparring. If you already know how to spar, no matter what system you go into, you shouldn't have to wait months or years to gain the privileged to do it again, and you shouldn't have to face opponents much worse than you. In the case of my taekwondo to kung fu transition for example, the student, though a white belt, should still be able to spar with the black belts. They will have to learn any new rules and break any habits on their own, but they can do it. If they can't, the instructor can place them to students of similar skill, but with sparring, as long as you know how to spar from any style, you should be able to at LEAST keep your sparring rank.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 21, 2012)

Personally, I believe you should strap on a white belt and start over. I'd rather be wearing a white belt than wearing a black belt while not knowing the curriculum.
But ultimately you ought to do whatever your instructor wants.


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## jks9199 (Apr 22, 2012)

With this thread resurrected -- I've noticed one thing pop up again and again; what seems to be an idea that a person can, for lack of a better way to describe it, be treated only as one rank.  For example, a school may limit sparring to green belts and above... so a black belt coming in and starting new as a white belt couldn't spar.

Why?  Why must someone only be treated one way?  I shape my expectations of my students to the student as much as by belt.  So, you get a guy with prior training starting as a new student... fine.  He's gotta be taught the "new" stuff -- but he can also spar.  He's not a true white belt, and shouldn't be treated as one.


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## Zenjael (Apr 22, 2012)

I have found no matter what art one practices, if the black is gi it eventually fades back to white. There is an old saying, from white to black, from black to white... in martial arts I believe it told that this is when you come full circle, and should realize you are always a white belt, should you be humble enough to admit it. We never stop learning or growing. A lot of people see black belt as an end or intermediate benchmark... when it's really the point where you should consider yourself equivocal toward being a no-belt. The difference, is that with black, you're now ready to seriously start the study of the arts. 

That's my standard at least, and what guides me in my practice.


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## MLA9741 (Apr 22, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I have found no matter what art one practices, if the black is gi it eventually fades back to white. There is an old saying, from white to black, from black to white... in martial arts I believe it told that this is when you come full circle, and should realize you are always a white belt, should you be humble enough to admit it. We never stop learning or growing. A lot of people see black belt as an end or intermediate benchmark... when it's really the point where you should consider yourself equivocal toward being a no-belt. *The difference, is that with black, you're now ready to seriously start the study of the arts.*
> 
> That's my standard at least, and what guides me in my practice.



I actually like that and agree with it a lot. I wouldn't know yet (black belt test in a week ), but I heard that once you get you BB everything speeds and gets a lot more exciting.  It is visible in class that BB studies are a lot more exciting.


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## Kenlee25 (Apr 22, 2012)

MLA9741 said:


> I actually like that and agree with it a lot. I wouldn't know yet (black belt test in a week ), but I heard that once you get you BB everything speeds and gets a lot more exciting.  It is visible in class that BB studies are a lot more exciting.



In my Taekwondo class about a month ago, a fellow student and I were talking about how pretty much everything we learned was as a black belt. Sure we "knew" how to use that kick as a blue belt or "knew" how to spar as a purple belt, but we both commented that the most advancement in skill level came AFTER we had gotten our black belts. As a black belt, you may learn new moves ( or not ) and you may learn new forms ( or not ) and the sparring may be more difficult ( mostly because your opponents are better ), but I think it's the freedom that comes with the black belt that fosters this intensive study of the arts. When you are no longer worried about "I've been stuck at this belt level for so long" or "I need to test this month" and you get that top half of the classroom to do whatever without the instructors constantly watching you...you have free time to experiment and just find yourself in the arts. It's the fact that you suddenly take the LESS seriously that for some  reason makes you take it even more seriously ( woah paradox! ) 

That's when your own unique philosophies and styles tend to develop. For example, if you notice, most people in your class probably have similar fighting styles. You don't have to adjust much, just go autopilot right? But when you spar against the students who are nearly black belt, all of the sudden they all have different styles, some of which completely contrary to what has been taught to them all these years. Suddenly you are having to analyze or remember every opponent. 

That's just the thing. I don't think it's the belt level, but it's sudden thought the pressure has been taken off of you that makes you a better artists, because you begin to develop in a way that benefits YOU in a way it will benefit no one else. Some people never develop this free form mindset and just another typical *insert martial art here* drone. But when you take yourself out of the art and realize, I'm not a *insert martial art here* fighter, I'm just an artist, that's when you start to really develop.


In my opinion anyway..


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## Yondanchris (Apr 22, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Better to be a bad *** white belt than an embarrassed black belt.



That's exactly why I started over at white in EPAK over a year ago! Plus I realized how little I knew  after my instructor schooled me! Nothing like a little humble pie!


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## RedShyGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

It's really up to the instructor. If he decides to keep you as a black belt, he must have his reasons. You'll be bringing your knowledge to your new school and the other students (new or old) might be able to benefit from it. There's nothing wrong with keeping your rank as long as you know you're the newbie in the school and don't act you're the top dog. 

Personally though, if given the option, I would start at white belt. You would progress at a faster rate than the other students that are completely new and it would still give you ample time to really get a grasp on your new style. I got my 2nd Dan in TKD and then moved to RI to train in Kenpo and was told to keep wearing my black belt.

Don't expect to get special treatment just because you already have a black belt because that will just piss everyone off hahaha


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