# wing chun vs muai thai



## Jens (Oct 28, 2015)




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## Danny T (Oct 28, 2015)

This was not wing chun vs muay thai.This is a very inexperienced someone who may be a muay thai practitioner vs some who has a lot more experience; 20 years of TKD, Wing Chun, Ninjutsu, and Boxing.


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## KPM (Oct 28, 2015)

That!  ^^^^^   I don't know anyone that would consider that video any kind of representation of Muay Thai.


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## Steve (Oct 28, 2015)

Proof that Muay Thai doesn't work in the ring.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2015)

Jens said:


>


This is just a simple case of one person knowing how to fight and the other not knowing.  It's clear that one person has more experience which is why the title of the video is "Jai Harman vs Muay Thai" and not "Wing Chun vs Muay Thai."  It's only "Wing Chun vs Muay Thai" when wing chun is actually being used.

Everything about the guy who was losing screams BEGINNER.  For me personally I wouldn't have done that to someone who was clearly not at my level unless the person said something to deserve it.  If it was just a friendly match then I would have just saved my "awesome skills" and use the match as a skills practice for me.  Like maybe baiting the guy so that I can work on my counter attacks or allowing the guy to attack so I can work on my defense.

I watched a couple of videos that Jai Harman put on youtube and he always seems to be sparring with people who are at a low skill level for fighting.  I'm not saying that he isn't good.  For me, the better my opponent is, the more I can let loose with my technique without being worried that I may hurt the other guy, and the better I'll get using my fighting style.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2015)

Why does WC always has to be "vs." some styles? We don't see:

- boxing vs. ...
- wrestling vs. ...
- Judo vs. ...
- long fist vs. ...
- praying mantis vs. ...
- ...


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2015)

Yes, we do, actually. YouBoob is drowning in "vs" videos, which are pretty much all crap.


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## Danny T (Oct 28, 2015)

The so called muay thai person wasn't ready and his coach should have never allowed him to be in such a position at this point in his training. It is bad enough he was outclassed skill wise but he didn't know what to do or how to handle being hit. He should not have been in a competition, smoker, or sparring match like this to begin with. Terrible example of developing a student. (and quite honestly for someone with 20 years of training Harman's fundamentals, in this video, leave a lot to be desired)


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes, we do, actually. YouBoob is drowning in "vs" videos, which are pretty much all crap.


The "fighting style vs fighting style" videos are is usually 1 good fighting vs a fighter that isn't good or a fighting system vs another fighting system and you really can't tell the actual techniques being done.  But there are some good videos showing good practitioners going against each other; you just have to swim through the crap to see good ones.  
Taekwondo vs Muay Thai has some good videos that represent both fighting systems really well.
Kung fu vs any fighting system is 99% really horrible.  The only thing were you'll see really kung fu techniques used against another style is from Yi long. You'll have to watch his earlier matches in other to see the stuff that non-kung fu practitioners would consider "kung fu."
Capoeira has good ones. You can see their opponents faces freak out when they deal with these guys. The movement isn't the normal "mma / boxing / kickboxing" movement so you'll see clearly that they don't know how to deal with capoeira.









I blame modern day kung fu martial arts tournaments for trying to make Kung Fu safe. Which results in crap like this. This stuff is training for how to get knocked out. Stuff like this is one step away from turning into an anime nerd convention full of make believe.   Tru2Form Kung Fu is the worse idea ever.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 29, 2015)

Danny T said:


> The so called muay thai person wasn't ready and his coach should have never allowed him to be in such a position at this point in his training. It is bad enough he was outclassed skill wise but he didn't know what to do or how to handle being hit. He should not have been in a competition, smoker, or sparring match like this to begin with. Terrible example of developing a student. (and quite honestly for someone with 20 years of training Harman's fundamentals, in this video, leave a lot to be desired)


I don't know the context of why the beginner was in the ring fighting, but his ego probably took a bigger hit that day. lol.  For all we know he could have had an ego problem and his coach decided to bring him back into reality.

I've sparred against people who were no where near my skill level and I went easy on them.  I gave them just enough so that they could fight back and be challenged at the same time.  I also benefited from this because it allowed me to work on new techniques without the fear of being knocked out from trying it. 

There have been cases where I lowered my output level too low and got rocked, when I went easy on a female fighter.  I quickly made adjustments to the level where I wasn't dominating the fight but I wasn't getting rocked like before.  Doing this allowed me to gain a better understanding on one of the techniques I knew. That day I learned 4 new applications of the same technique thanks to this lady.
Video of me getting rocked from a punch.  She was faster and hit harder than I initially thought she was able to.  I quickly had to raise my skill level higher but not so high where I was dominating the fight.  Out of all of the people I sparred with that day she is the one that I talked the most about.  She definitely earned my respect.  The rules stated that we had to match our intensity to the level of our opponent.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 29, 2015)

No head movement, hands coming to meet strikes, hands dangerously low for no reason most of the time, no attempt to move around the opponent: 

1. This guy doesn't have the basics of any kind of kickboxing down very well.

2. Why did his instructor allow him to be in that fight

3. Well done to him for being brave enough to get in there.

Hopefully he leaves it a couple of months before fighting/sparring like this again, you can have any confidence you had in your training broken pretty easy by continuously putting yourself in that kind of position before you're ready. It'll do more damage than good imo.


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> No head movement, hands coming to meet strikes, hands dangerously low for no reason most of the time, no attempt to move around the opponent:
> 
> 1. This guy doesn't have the basics of any kind of kickboxing down very well.
> 
> ...



Possibly the most interesting idea so far. Do you or don't you put your new student in a situation where he will loose?

For me probably sometimes? It can get you over the brink and turn you in to a fighter. But it is an unpleasant way to do it.

I mean that is how I learned to fight and just kept doing it until I didn't care anymore. From there I was able to work on technique regardless as to what they did.


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## LFJ (Oct 29, 2015)

Danny T said:


> (and quite honestly for someone with 20 years of training Harman's fundamentals, in this video, leave a lot to be desired)



Fundamentals of what? Do you think he was trying to use VT there? 

What specifically for example would you have desired with regard to his fundamentals?


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 29, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Possibly the most interesting idea so far. Do you or don't you put your new student in a situation where he will loose?
> 
> For me probably sometimes? It can get you over the brink and turn you in to a fighter. But it is an unpleasant way to do it.
> 
> I mean that is how I learned to fight and just kept doing it until I didn't care anymore. From there I was able to work on technique regardless as to what they did.



I think putting students in controlled environments where they should lose, like sparring against a better person, is good for their development at any stage of their training - beginner to expert. In the beginning I think it's important that they don't get roughed up too badly too often though; I went through a period of getting my *** handed to me frequently when first starting kickboxing and it wasn't pleasant - and I think there definitely was a limit as to how much I could have learned from the process, before more padwork and drills became the answer. 

For me it is an iterative process: padwork/drills > sparring > lessons learned > work on these in padwork/drills > apply to light sparring until comfortable ... and so on. 

From the video, it didnt look like that guy had done much of the "apply to light sparring" before jumping into medium/heavy contact. Hopefully he gets a bit of practice in before his next fight


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## Danny T (Oct 29, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Fundamentals of what? Do you think he was trying to use VT there?
> 
> What specifically for example would you have desired with regard to his fundamentals?


Fundamentals of body unity and mechanics for empty hand fighting in a stand up striking event. Lack of protecting the jaw and head when punching. Numerous examples of wide open punching even opening up the arms in an attempt to punch with more power because his body mechanics are so poor. The only reason he did as well as he did against that particular person was the other person was so much worse. What he showed within this video was more boxing and kickboxing vs a wing chun stylist though several punches were straight down the center. Elbows were out a lot more than in and he telegraphed many of his wide swinging hook punches. Not a very good example of a seasoned 20 year practitioner he is purported to be. I already stated this wasn't wing chun vs muay thai.


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## LFJ (Oct 29, 2015)

@Danny T

I don't look at it that way. You're perhaps thinking you'd do such and such if he did that, but there's nothing to say he'd fight like that against you. There's no need for him to tighten up against someone of obviously lesser skill. Like a cat toying with a mouse, nothing wrong with a loose freestyle. If the opponent can't deal with it, that's not Jai's problem.


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> I think putting students in controlled environments where they should lose, like sparring against a better person, is good for their development at any stage of their training - beginner to expert. In the beginning I think it's important that they don't get roughed up too badly too often though; I went through a period of getting my *** handed to me frequently when first starting kickboxing and it wasn't pleasant - and I think there definitely was a limit as to how much I could have learned from the process, before more padwork and drills became the answer.
> 
> For me it is an iterative process: padwork/drills > sparring > lessons learned > work on these in padwork/drills > apply to light sparring until comfortable ... and so on.
> 
> From the video, it didnt look like that guy had done much of the "apply to light sparring" before jumping into medium/heavy contact. Hopefully he gets a bit of practice in before his next fight



Yeah I  say tentatively. He had spazed out by the end. So he might have been better than he was showing at that time.

I see people people fight my Coach like that because he is unconventional and just awkward to fight. They start second guessing and punching short. Put them with a less skilled guy and they take more advantage of openings.


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## JPinAZ (Oct 29, 2015)

LFJ said:


> @Danny T
> 
> I don't look at it that way. You're perhaps thinking you'd do such and such if he did that, but there's nothing to say he'd fight like that against you. There's no need for him to tighten up against someone of obviously lesser skill. Like a cat toying with a mouse, nothing wrong with a loose freestyle. If the opponent can't deal with it, that's not Jai's problem.



I agree with this for the most part. When going against someone of obviously less skill, you can indulge in letting yourself loosen up a bit, but it's not necessary and could be a bad habit to get into and cause you to get caught with a wild lucky swing (but still fun I guess if you're feeling risky). 
That aside, for 20 years experience and going against someone of obviously lesser skill, he did look a bit sloppy to me over all (looser guard or not).


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2015)

By the way if I box someone I am better than I tend to go very authodox light power but high pressure. So they don't get into this idea that running gives them safety or collapsing gives them safety.


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## Danny T (Oct 29, 2015)

LFJ said:


> @Danny T
> You're perhaps thinking you'd do such and such if he did that, but there's nothing to say he'd fight like that against you. There's no need for him to tighten up against someone of obviously lesser skill. Like a cat toying with a mouse, nothing wrong with a loose freestyle. If the opponent can't deal with it, that's not Jai's problem.


No actually I wasn't. I was looking at what he was doing based upon someone who has 20+ years of training and look at his fundamentals. (as you asked). I didn't say anything about Jai having a problem because of being far better skilled than his opponent. What I did say was his fundamentals 'in that video' left a lot to be desired. The video was displayed as an example of what the OP titled as "wing chun vs muay thai". My comments are based upon wing chun vs muay thai. Harman has a lot of training in several fighting systems and relaxed or not the fundamentals displayed by him 'in this video' were lacking.


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## LFJ (Oct 30, 2015)

Danny T said:


> The video was displayed as an example of what the OP titled as "wing chun vs muay thai". My comments are based upon wing chun vs muay thai.



Well, that's odd. I don't know the OP's experience, but you should be able to tell Jai wasn't using Wing Chun there.

Video 2 of 5 has been uploaded now, anyway. I don't know why he calls it "Modern Day BeiMo" though. That seems a little more than silly... 

Again, no Wing Chun. Looks like he's trying to imitate Mayweather's boxing style.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 30, 2015)

The first video is a club kickboxing/muay thai match. Regardless of what else the opponents may have studied, they were kickboxing. The 2nd video, is a club boxing match. They take place in gyms all over the world, every day. 

Not taking anything away from it, it's really cool thing, it's super fun to train and do, I respect the players. But, these things are really common, there is no deeper meaning or statement to be made with it.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2015)

Danny T said:


> No actually I wasn't. I was looking at what he was doing based upon someone who has 20+ years of training and look at his fundamentals. (as you asked). I didn't say anything about Jai having a problem because of being far better skilled than his opponent. What I did say was his fundamentals 'in that video' left a lot to be desired. The video was displayed as an example of what the OP titled as "wing chun vs muay thai". My comments are based upon wing chun vs muay thai. Harman has a lot of training in several fighting systems and relaxed or not the fundamentals displayed by him 'in this video' were lacking.


Other people on youtube have commented about his fundamentals as well.  Ironically we often measure fighters by their fundamentals more so than the flashy stuff.  I think of fundamentals like a strong root system of a large tree; even when the tree has been cut the root is not so easy to get rid of.  The quality of a person's fundamentals will always show no matter how a person fights.  I know for me, my fundamentals still show even when I fight lazy.  People who have strong stances tend to show it when they fight or when they are just walking. Fundamentals become a part of the person so when the fundamentals of a person are weak, it shows.


LFJ said:


> Well, that's odd. I don't know the OP's experience, but you should be able to tell Jai wasn't using Wing Chun there.
> 
> Video 2 of 5 has been uploaded now, anyway. I don't know why he calls it "Modern Day BeiMo" though. That seems a little more than silly...
> 
> Again, no Wing Chun. Looks like he's trying to imitate Mayweather's boxing style.


He finally got went against someone of the same skill level.   About time.


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## Danny T (Oct 30, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Well, that's odd. I don't know the OP's experience, but you should be able to tell Jai wasn't using Wing Chun there.
> 
> Video 2 of 5 has been uploaded now, anyway. I don't know why he calls it "Modern Day BeiMo" though. That seems a little more than silly...
> 
> Again, no Wing Chun. Looks like he's trying to imitate Mayweather's boxing style.



As I stated in post #2: "This was not wing chun vs muay thai."


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 30, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> [edit]
> Everything about the guy who was losing screams BEGINNER.  For me personally I wouldn't have done that to someone who was clearly not at my level unless the person said something to deserve it.  If it was just a friendly match then I would have just saved my "awesome skills" and use the match as a skills practice for me.  Like maybe baiting the guy so that I can work on my counter attacks or allowing the guy to attack so I can work on my defense.
> [edit]


\
Yes, but this is the vast conventional wisdom of the sport fighting (kick boxing represented here) approaches....  learn to fight by fighting....
\
Moreover,,, the post below about keeping hands up.... another disaster as the beginner re actively does just that.... and gets totally creamed....
\
My karate plug: Get serious and learn some real TMA.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why does WC always has to be "vs." some styles? We don't see:
> 
> - boxing vs. ...
> - wrestling vs. ...
> ...


\
That's because virtually no one can really do wing chun; hence the WC (or most any TMA) always fails syndrome is proven over and time again in these vids...


JowGaWolf said:


> The "fighting style vs fighting style" videos are is usually 1 good fighting vs a fighter that isn't good or a fighting system vs another fighting system and you really can't tell the actual techniques being done.  But there are some good videos showing good practitioners going against each other; you just have to swim through the crap to see good ones.
> Taekwondo vs Muay Thai has some good videos that represent both fighting systems really well.
> Kung fu vs any fighting system is 99% really horrible.  The only thing were you'll see really kung fu techniques used against another style is from Yi long. You'll have to watch his earlier matches in other to see the stuff that non-kung fu practitioners would consider "kung fu."
> Capoeira has good ones. You can see their opponents faces freak out when they deal with these guys. The movement isn't the normal "mma / boxing / kickboxing" movement so you'll see clearly that they don't know how to deal with capoeira.
> ...


\
The Kung fu numbskull in your 1st vs. caporira vid (nice outfight) is the typical, "...throw a technique and see what happens.... oooooppss while I was checking out my nifty technique, it's effect; I got clocked by a tricky kick move,,,,"  Again, zero mental discipline = massive TMA fail....  Any TMA isn't for egotistical morons....  let alone the high level TMA of kung fu....


Dinkydoo said:


> No head movement, hands coming to meet strikes, hands dangerously low for no reason most of the time, no attempt to move around the opponent:


\
Right, the lacked defensive capability.... so common... but he did put his hands up versus your  criticism.... to absolutely no avail.....



Dinkydoo said:


> 1. This guy doesn't have the basics of any kind of kickboxing down very well.


\
Again, I take or sample some TMA stuff and since I don't really have the mental discipline to actually use TMA, I'll just revert to monkey-see-monkey-do kickboxing that all these 'expert' MMA promoters and competitors are doing....



Dinkydoo said:


> 2. Why did his instructor allow him to be in that fight


\
Because everyone knows that TMA only worked 100's of years ago....



Dinkydoo said:


> 3. Well done to him for being brave enough to get in there.


\
RIGHT ON.... WEED OUT THE SISSIES....  WE'RE REAL MEN HERE....



Dinkydoo said:


> Hopefully he leaves it a couple of months before fighting/sparring like this again, you can have any confidence you had in your training broken pretty easy by continuously putting yourself in that kind of position before you're ready. It'll do more damage than good imo.


\
YEAH, SHAKE IT OUT AND COME BACK IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS.... SAME ADVICE THE BLACK-GI'E TKD INSTRUCTORS LIKELY GAVE THE SUPPOSED TKD BLACK-BELT IN MY BACKFIST BREAK FAIL YT VID..... SHAKE IT OUT & COME BACK IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS....
\
EDIT: Not trying to chase prospective students away from your schools, not purposely anyhow....


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 30, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> [edit]
> There have been cases where I lowered my output level too low and got rocked, when I went easy on a female fighter.  I quickly made adjustments to the level where I wasn't dominating the fight but I wasn't getting rocked like before.  Doing this allowed me to gain a better understanding on one of the techniques I knew. That day I learned 4 new applications of the same technique thanks to this lady.
> Video of me getting rocked from a punch.  She was faster and hit harder than I initially thought she was able to.  I quickly had to raise my skill level higher but not so high where I was dominating the fight.  Out of all of the people I sparred with that day she is the one that I talked the most about.  She definitely earned my respect.  The rules stated that we had to match our intensity to the level of our opponent.


\
Oh, oh, the natural athlete out fought you....  I can't hit girls. myself.... so I feel for ya...
\
I have to be blunt though... you're emphasis on sparring is wrong... and your sparring form is even wronger by Kung fu standards....
\
All your defenses are sport fighting-like and way too passive....
\
Enjoyed the vid-clip tremendously,,, I've found myself in similar situations.... and why I generally avoid free sparring which tends to become play-sparring.... which is not productive @ all...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2015)

I don't like terms such as "vs.", "anti-", ... as if the entire world is your enemy.


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## geezer (Oct 30, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't like terms such as "vs.", "anti-", ... as if the entire world is your enemy.



Or, maybe it's all a confusion over_ spelling_. Maybe it's  reference to techniques learned from your Sifu's "auntie"! That would explain some of the problems pointed out with WC "auntie grappling" for example.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Oh, oh, the natural athlete out fought you.... I can't hit girls. myself.... so I feel for ya


 No it wasn't that she was a female that was an issue as it was that she was a female and I didn't know the extent of her skills.  While it's easy to point to female professional fighters, it's not so easy to determine if an everyday woman will have fighting skills.  Most girls are taught "to be girls" and do "girls things" so the chances of me sparring with a woman that hits like she did is rare. It's difficult to know just how skillful a woman will be at fighting until you actually fight or spar with her.  It would have been different if I was in in gym full of professional fighters.

I don't have that "men don't or aren't supposed to hit women" mentality.  Self-defense knows no gender. She also didn't out fight me. The type of sparring that we were doing was so that they can get better at Sanda and I could get better using my Jow Ga. It wasn't a sparring to see who was better.

She showed me what she was capable and I raised my intensity level from a beginner to an intermediate and gave her the respect as a fighter of skill which she deserved. 



ShotoNoob said:


> I have to be blunt though... you're emphasis on sparring is wrong... and your sparring form is even wronger by Kung fu standards


.  What's wrong with my emphasis on sparring?  What's wrong with my sparring form? 



ShotoNoob said:


> All your defenses are sport fighting-like and way too passive


   Which is funny to me because you are saying this to a guy whose Sifu refers to as "Pearl Harbor."  I'll have to share this with him.  He'll get a kick out of it.  If you had a chance to spar with me then you would find humor in your statement as well.  But it's good that you see my sparring this way.



ShotoNoob said:


> why I generally avoid free sparring which tends to become play-sparring.... which is not productive @ all...


 The Sanda group my school spars with doesn't do "play-sparring" so the sparring sessions are very productive both for my school and theirs. I can only assume that they learned from sparring against us. I know I was able to gain a deeper understanding of my technique when I sparred against the same woman who lit me up with that combo.  lol.  Because we weren't trying to knock each other's head's off, I was able to work on some techniques and take a few punches to the face while I gain a better understanding of the technique.  Thanks to her I can now do the technique without being hit in the face.  

It's better for me to learn and get hit in the face while sparring than it is to be trying to learn a technique in a real fight where a mistake or a missed block or trap could result in serious damage.


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 31, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> No it wasn't that she was a female that was an issue as it was that she was a female and I didn't know the extent of her skills.  While it's easy to point to female professional fighters, it's not so easy to determine if an everyday woman will have fighting skills.  Most girls are taught "to be girls" and do "girls things" so the chances of me sparring with a woman that hits like she did is rare. It's difficult to know just how skillful a woman will be at fighting until you actually fight or spar with her.  It would have been different if I was in in gym full of professional fighters.


\
Well I agree with you there.... most girls / woman aren't natural fighters....  We have a woman @ our dojo who fits the bill of the student you posted.... quite surprising when one runs across one like her.
\
A bit of an aside in WMMA, where Ronda Rousey is dominating so largely.... Her female competition, some just can't stand for more than a few seconds to a few minutes....  I like to joke that someone like me can defeat a Ronda Rousey.... when apparently she has been a handful for male opponents and even in a self defense situation....


JowGaWolf said:


> I don't have that "men don't or aren't supposed to hit women" mentality.  Self-defense knows no gender. She also didn't out fight me. The type of sparring that we were doing was so that they can get better at Sanda and I could get better using my Jow Ga. It wasn't a sparring to see who was better.


\
Well of course training is training in the dojo....  It's just personal quirk of mine that hitting a women is not in my DNA.   Could I hit a woman if it was called for by her conduct.  Sure, absolutely....  Woman don't have a free ride when it comes to abuse....
\
Incidentally, I have sparred with the woman-fighter in my dojo and she too is loaded with natural talent.  I did hit her on purpose once (defensively) when she was getting carried away turning a sparring session into a tournament.  She later told the head instructor that I put up a good challenge unlike the other male sparring partners in the dojo.  I found that humorous since I really can't fight women without a good reason... and was really playing along trying to get her to practice her kihon techniques for her upcoming belt-rank test (the head instructor had asked me to step in to help her.).  Aggressive & competitive women are subject to the same ego trip as men....



JowGaWolf said:


> She showed me what she was capable and I raised my intensity level from a beginner to an intermediate and gave her the respect as a fighter of skill which she deserved.


\
Yeah, I had to ramp up from helpful partner mode to competition mode to teach her that assuming a cooperative partner with an inborn reluctance to fight women = / = dormat....



JowGaWolf said:


> .  What's wrong with my emphasis on sparring?  What's wrong with my sparring form


\
To be fair, I didn't put up a personal video & you did.  I have put up reems of illustrations on traditional karate (read TMA) approach to actual fight training....  I did put up some general comments so you can refer to those for a start,,, and my postings address those directly....
\
I will say in brief,,,, that I don't seek to out trade strikes,,,, I end the confrontation....


JowGaWolf said:


> Which is funny to me because you are saying this to a guy whose Sifu refers to as "Pearl Harbor."  I'll have to share this with him.  He'll get a kick out of it.  If you had a chance to spar with me then you would find humor in your statement as well.  But it's good that you see my sparring this way.


\
Well, the experience with my sparring partners is that they usually lose.... almost never land an offensive strike... or if they do they experience a potentially damaging strike in return....  I have very strong TMA defense which neutralizes offensive tactics.... your girl for all her athleticism leaves herself open to countering defense & offense which then puts her squarely in the vulnerable zone....
\
Yeah, it would be interesting in sparring with you.... but I usually end up showing how mental discipline trumps tactics...  so it is a lost exercise in training....  The real training for sparring comes with performing the TMA curriculum as a mental exercise... that is where the value of training with me lies....  but tns for the acknowledgement....
\
As an editorial note, my 1st TMA instructor who started with TKD then left TKD for CMA, never asked or required me to spar with him.   He was on a plane above most instructors I've had, in that such sparring would have been a complete waste of time..... the training of the curriculum components to TMA standards the real, important test.
\
The other kung fu instructor I mentioned in the "WC is really hard karate Thread," did request I spar with him as a new student, which was completely stupid, IMO....  He didn't appreciate my interest in the traditional karate's and thought he had to prove himself to the class, and me too.  Nothing could have been farther from the truth.... I could see how skilled he was.... and I already had concluded at the that time that kung fu was vastly superior to traditional karate.... that is if you could really perform kung fu to CMA standards...  I chalked that (his request) up to ego & pressures of running a branch of a martial arts school....



JowGaWolf said:


> The Sanda group my school spars with doesn't do "play-sparring" so the sparring sessions are very productive both for my school and theirs. I can only assume that they learned from sparring against us. I know I was able to gain a deeper understanding of my technique when I sparred against the same woman who lit me up with that combo.  lol.  Because we weren't trying to knock each other's head's off, I was able to work on some techniques and take a few punches to the face while I gain a better understanding of the technique.  Thanks to her I can now do the technique without being hit in the face.


\
Well, yes sparring is legitimate, I have a more traditional view of it's worth and emphasis in the overall curriculum.  TBT, my perspective is really applicable to those who want to go deeper into the roots of what the TMA curriculum is supposed to do, re developing the mental discipline, the mental qualities spelled out by more specific terms in Gichn Funakoshi's karate....   yet present as universal foundation principles across all TMA models... Interestingly, my 1st TMA instructor's school manual specifically divided the mental capabilities of TMA training into a distinct dimension, although still very general.  Tang Soo Do does this in a more, vague general statement also.



JowGaWolf said:


> It's better for me to learn and get hit in the face while sparring than it is to be trying to learn a technique in a real fight where a mistake or a missed block or trap could result in serious damage.


\
Well, reality testing lies somewhere important & critical.  So as a general principle, I'm all for sparring in the TMA curriculum.  But here's the view of that kung fu instructor who I wrote about in the WC vs. karate Thread.... And one which I Whole-heartly agree in matter of principle.
\
_*He said, "I have a comrade who goes to tournaments and never loses in [kumite-the Chinese version] competition.  And what this kung fu stylist does is train a single form which he does to perfection.  He has perfected this one form.  And that has made him unbeatable."*_
\
*By my understanding of TMA and it's principles.... I can see how this is true, and has the potential to be true to any devoted TMA practitoiner who has certain requisite mental & physical faculties....  Sure it's purist in a sense.  I prefer the traditional karate model of kihon, kata, kumite... which is what his kung fu school curriculum follows....*
\
The TMA truth that kata, or chinese kung fu forms, Tang Soo Do hyung, whatever you want to call TMA forms is the comprehensive TMA exercise that done to the standards of TMA principles... .will give the base to be a superior fighter / self defense, whatever.  There is still a place for reality testing... but the TMA base done to standards will provide the mental & physical capability to overcome virtually any athlete with any physical approach.... in principle....
\
I'll give a brief explanation using your vid-cap in my next post....  Other Martial Talk members / posters have addressed these mental qualities @ a number of different threads....


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 31, 2015)

ILLUSTRATION #1: EXACTLY HOW I DON'T TRAIN





LFJ said:


> Well, that's odd. I don't know the OP's experience, but you should be able to tell Jai wasn't using Wing Chun there.
> 
> Video 2 of 5 has been uploaded now, anyway. I don't know why he calls it "Modern Day BeiMo" though. That seems a little more than silly...
> 
> Again, no Wing Chun. Looks like he's trying to imitate Mayweather's boxing style.


\
As a matter of principle, I could wipe out either of these KICKBOXING, WHATEVER, stylistS...
\
The only difference martial arts wise is as one poster commented: The Host Jai Harman has good athletics + very experienced.  His opponent appears less athletic and largely inexperienced.
\
So you have a good athlete with good training pretty much physically dominating the less capable noob.
\
The TMA model addresses this by preparing the noob so that mentally his can out act a Jai Harmon-- with off course physical conditioning being a necessary TMA requisite....
\
By TMA standards, the noob shouldn't be any where near the ring....  He's  a double / triple disaster by TMA standards....


JowGaWolf said:


> [edit]
> There have been cases where I lowered my output level too low and got rocked, when I went easy on a female fighter.  I quickly made adjustments to the level where I wasn't dominating the fight but I wasn't getting rocked like before.  Doing this allowed me to gain a better understanding on one of the techniques I knew. That day I learned 4 new applications of the same technique thanks to this lady.
> Video of me getting rocked from a punch.  She was faster and hit harder than I initially thought she was able to.  I quickly had to raise my skill level higher but not so high where I was dominating the fight.  Out of all of the people I sparred with that day she is the one that I talked the most about.  She definitely earned my respect.  The rules stated that we had to match our intensity to the level of our opponent.


\
Here's your link.  I will refer to a specific point... I know it's a sparring exercise, and I too have been surprised by the ferocity of my sparring partners.... but as a general rule.... not.... only on rare occasions such as when I was requested to prepare someone for specific issues and the partner broke the premise for the sparring session....
\
TIME = 0.15 [GREAT CLIP INCIDENTALLY]
\
You initiate a half-hearted right forward punch or front punch which then she parries or presses down.
\
She then feints a counter right reverse punch which your back hand raises to parry / block.
\
You also employ the hands up guard and chin tuck, with combined with head movement and body lean- twisting raises your rear foot off the floor, with your weight largely planted on your front, lead foot.
\
Now this is a little confusing 'cause you fight southpaw.... So I'll have to switch to southpaw to make a specific comment....  Let's also assume I will use what I understand to be the standard kung fu guard....
\
First of all, I am upright with my chin up, standing in a TMA stance, typically a high bow & arrow stance or fighting stance by karate... or a forward or front stance by karate...  My hands are in a TMA guard with my right hand extended about chest to chin high by my opponent.  My left arm  is retracted and in front of my abdomen, I typically keep that hand (both hands) clenched although open hand(s) is traditional as well..
\
The right I would have initiated would have extended through her guard to a target... it's that simple in physical movement.  I would have also transitioned to deliberate contact range prior to initiating my strike.
\
Had she interfered with my lead right (doubtful), upon her reverse right punch feint.... I would have absolutely done nothing physically.  Not a thing....  Mentally, I would have gauged the feint as harmless, which it was.... I would for that instant, remained exactly in place (both feet firmly on the floor), exactly upright and exactly in standard guard....
\
Her speedy follow-on reverse right is exactly in position to be standard tma - blocked by either of my guard hands (inside or outside).... the most expedient is my outstretched right...which is probably what I would use given her extreme speed...
\
With her lead hand weapon neutralized.... one hand momentarily taken out of action.... in that precise moment I would counter with either hand.  The head is the logical target because it is the closest and completely exposed by my negating her right striking hand.
\
Just as head moment, body lean, hands up guard doesn't work for you in this instance.... It's not going to work for her either because I'm too fast, accurate & dynamic for her to react.
\
All the kihon karate (basic kung fu) techniques give one the palate of strikes & stances to use and the one steps give you the tactics... all represented in the kata or forms with continuous motion....
\
It's the heightened mental discipline of TMA training that provides the mental capability for me to overcome her.... or any one else (in principle).  No learning from sparring that my assumptions  & guesses about what she is doing will enable me to react or out react her skills....  That's the TMA watershed////
\
Good luck learning that from me.... it's not done by sparring with me.... it's done by doing what that kung fu instructor said about forms training... _IN PRINCIPLE....  edit: Despite his request to spar with me (stupid-a-mondo), his TMA skills and perspective were real...._


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## ShotoNoob (Oct 31, 2015)

@ja Gow... on the 2nd exchange... where you are covering .... I'm striking while she is preparing her ultimately successful reverse middle punch.... I'm that dynamic.....  she wouldn't even have gotten out-of-the-box on the 2nd part of her combo....
\
EDIT: Of course, if I have let my mental guard down, I would have gotten slaughtered like you.... that would be fault on me.... not an ode to her aggressive, athletic ability.....  which Jai Harman or any number of males can exhibit.....


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## yak sao (Oct 31, 2015)

geezer said:


> Or, maybe it's all a confusion over_ spelling_. Maybe it's  reference to techniques learned from your Sifu's "auntie"! That would explain some of the problems pointed out with WC "auntie grappling" for example.



Which begs the question, that if your auntie gets you in an arm lock you can't get out of, would you still call "uncle" ?


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> ILLUSTRATION #1: EXACTLY HOW I DON'T TRAIN
> \
> As a matter of principle, I could wipe out either of these KICKBOXING, WHATEVER, stylistS...
> \
> ...



So you win because superpowers.


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## wckf92 (Oct 31, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So you win because superpowers.



\
now THAT is funny!!!!
\
hahahahahaha
\
shake it out, shake it off
\
oh, and 'good luck with that
\
the end


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 31, 2015)

@ShotoNoob 

Although I appreciate that you're being purposefully facetious here; just because this guy was showing crap fundamentals of kickboxing whilst apparently fighting against an opponent who's 20 years of Wing Chun looked more like boxing, doesn't mean that every video analysis gone before on Martial Talk has no merit. 

If certain styles repeatedly look rubbish in a competitive sparring match, then as someone who is fairly critical about their own training, I have to question the effectiveness of said art and the training methods that are typically associated with it. By all means, it isn't indicative of the style as a whole, but it definitely can provide an inisight into it's capability and the typical practitioner.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 31, 2015)

So, even if you are only trying to be humourous or sarcastic, I'm still actually quite confused by your post...so I've responded. 



ShotoNoob said:


> The Kung fu numbskull in your 1st vs. caporira vid (nice outfight) is the typical, "...throw a technique and see what happens.... oooooppss while I was checking out my nifty technique, it's effect; I got clocked by a tricky kick move,,,,"  Again, zero mental discipline = massive TMA fail....  Any TMA isn't for egotistical morons....  let alone the high level TMA of kung fu....



The "Kung Fu Guy" sweeps the Capoeira fighter in that video, that's literally all that happens...



> Right, the lacked defensive capability.... so common... but he did put his hands up versus your  criticism.... to absolutely no avail.....



What, like twice in the entire video - whilst he was hit with multiple strikes by failing to parry, cover-up, use head movement or defensive footwork... You're right, I'm sure that finally bringing his hands up those few times was to blame.



> Again, I take or sample some TMA stuff and since I don't really have the mental discipline to actually use TMA, I'll just revert to monkey-see-monkey-do kickboxing that all these 'expert' MMA promoters and competitors are doing....



The fighter who lost badly was Muay Thai, apparently...



> Because everyone knows that TMA only worked 100's of years ago....



The Wing Chun guy used virtually zero Wing Chun - even in principle



> RIGHT ON.... WEED OUT THE SISSIES....  WE'RE REAL MEN HERE....



Regardless of what this weird attempt at humour and/or deeply confusing online persona is, anyone who decides to get in a ring and fight receives and (in my opinion) deserves my respect. 



> YEAH, SHAKE IT OUT AND COME BACK IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS.... SAME ADVICE THE BLACK-GI'E TKD INSTRUCTORS LIKELY GAVE THE SUPPOSED TKD BLACK-BELT IN MY BACKFIST BREAK FAIL YT VID..... SHAKE IT OUT & COME BACK IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS....



Go away, train smart, return and take the test again. Seems like a good way of measuring progress to me. 

What would you suggest?


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> \
> now THAT is funny!!!!
> \
> hahahahahaha
> ...


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> @ja Gow... on the 2nd exchange... where you are covering .... I'm striking while she is preparing her ultimately successful reverse middle punch.... I'm that dynamic.....  she wouldn't even have gotten out-of-the-box on the 2nd part of her combo....
> \
> EDIT: Of course, if I have let my mental guard down, I would have gotten slaughtered like you.... that would be fault on me.... not an ode to her aggressive, athletic ability.....  which Jai Harman or any number of males can exhibit.....


Your analysis is correct about the countering the 2nd exchange. That's pretty much what I did.  I would have create another thread in order to show that. I don't want to take this topic off too far off course.  This is the end result of the technique I was working on that day. It looks like it's just a hook, but it's not.  The technique is what got me there.  Also take notice of the placement of the hook.  This is why I don't blast people in sparring. I've been hit with the same technique before and I'm not ashamed to admit that I was happy that my partner didn't put power into the punch.  I kept using the same technique on everyone because I wanted them to catch on and to be able to defend against it.  This means that I have to be able to alter a technique slightly in order to keep it effective.  It's one of those techniques that you can block one way and feel safe, only to have it hit you in the same place by slightly altering it.







Even though I let my mental guard down, I can't deny that she took advantage of that and did a good job at it. I have to be humble enough to acknowledge that as well as accept that I failed myself when I let my guard down mentally.  It was a good learning experience so in that light the sparring match was a good one. I got about a year's worth of improvement with that technique by sparring with them.  

The difference between Jai Harman and the woman I sparred with, is that his attitude is all about winning even when his skill level is higher than his opponent.  It shows in the way he spars and the type of videos he posts.  Both of our schools were there to improve our skills.  It never ever become about winning. So in that light I can appreciate someone using a technique on me and being successful with it. 

Jai Harman only cares about winning so me sparring against him would be more aggressive and I wouldn't care if he learned anything from the experience or not.  This is attitude is good for competition or actual fighting but not good for skill development.  I wouldn't have any problem with telling the guys I spar with how I was exploiting their openings, but I wouldn't do the same with Jai. He doesn't have that type of respect from me, based on what I see in the video.  It's his right to be that way so I'm not saying he's wrong for being that way.  It's just that it's not a good learning method for me.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> The Wing Chun guy used virtually zero Wing Chun - even in principle


 Out of that entire video this is what I noticed the most. Jai clearly had more skills to the point where he could have easily demonstrated good Wing Chun or good Muay Thai, or good Kickboxing skills and technique, but he didn't do it. Instead he just freestyle attacked the guy.  He did a little bit of boxing, a little bit of Muay Thai, a little bit of show boating and none of it really showing an ability of technique. Things like punching with elbows out and only generating power with the arms really stood out to me.


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Your analysis is correct about the countering the 2nd exchange. That's pretty much what I did.  I would have create another thread in order to show that. I don't want to take this topic off too far off course.  This is the end result of the technique I was working on that day. It looks like it's just a hook, but it's not.  The technique is what got me there.  Also take notice of the placement of the hook.  This is why I don't blast people in sparring. I've been hit with the same technique before and I'm not ashamed to admit that I was happy that my partner didn't put power into the punch.  I kept using the same technique on everyone because I wanted them to catch on and to be able to defend against it.  This means that I have to be able to alter a technique slightly in order to keep it effective.  It's one of those techniques that you can block one way and feel safe, only to have it hit you in the same place by slightly altering it.









[/quote]
\
I see how you are using the sparring to define & refine technique.  I do that before I even think of sparring...  Your approach is the much more common approach, though I don't endorse or follow such.  You do clearly show how active sparring can be used to develop & up one's skills.  The Jai Harman vids don't show the intelligence of your training approach @ all.... pretty much degenerating & deteriorating into your post & comment below, TMA wise that is...



JowGaWolf said:


> Even though I let my mental guard down, I can't deny that she took advantage of that and did a good job at it. I have to be humble enough to acknowledge that as well as accept that I failed myself when I let my guard down mentally.  It was a good learning experience so in that light the sparring match was a good one. I got about a year's worth of improvement with that technique by sparring with them.


\
As a strict traditionalist, the mental dimension is dominant &overriding....  This is one of the lessons in my much earlier posts on other MT threads regarding the opening step(s) of traditional karate kata.... which kung fu forms have a similar but more involved openings, TMU.  No one here has grasped that lesson....  Hence, the mental focus is missing and the traditional forms movements become hollow & false in their effect & intent... Same goes for basics & fighting drills such as 1-steps....  Mental discipline in TMA is paramount and this maxim can never be violated....  The reality of TMA is that your mind had better be working in a disciplined manner....  there's your TMA reality test...



JowGaWolf said:


> The difference between Jai Harman and the woman I sparred with, is that his attitude is all about winning even when his skill level is higher than his opponent.  It shows in the way he spars and the type of videos he posts.  Both of our schools were there to improve our skills.  It never ever become about winning. So in that light I can appreciate someone using a technique on me and being successful with it.


\
Always good to have goal posts and reality testing.  I believe in the traditional preparation as paramount: kihon, kata, kumite centered on 1-steps and the like....  I appreciate those higher skilled than myself, which I divide into 2 camps: better natural abilities (plenty) and better TMA (far fewer).  On that kung fu instructor I spoke about, I gave myself 3 years (at that time) until I could match him.... on a probable basis.... still wide open question....  And that would assume a higher than average intensity of training....  I would definitely be pushed to my limits.  Remember... he was a solid forms (not sparring) proponent....  In TMA, it tends to be the really solid kung fu stylists in my area that I can see I can't handle....  most karate guys I can beat or match....



JowGaWolf said:


> Jai Harman only cares about winning so me sparring against him would be more aggressive and I wouldn't care if he learned anything from the experience or not.  This is attitude is good for competition or actual fighting but not good for skill development.


\
Yeah, the woman student the head instructor asked me to help prepare for her belt test, turned the match into a tournament.... karate skill development (& and my unguarded attitude) were thrown out the window.  YOu hit the nail on the head, TMA wise or even good sport training wise... too much stress and the mind cannot learn effectively.... let alone integrate with the body functioning....


JowGaWolf said:


> I wouldn't have any problem with telling the guys I spar with how I was exploiting their openings, but I wouldn't do the same with Jai. He doesn't have that type of respect from me, based on what I see in the video.  It's his right to be that way so I'm not saying he's wrong for being that way.  It's just that it's not a good learning method for me.


\
Well, I don;t train with guys like Jai... 'cause it just degenerates into a contest..... then I am forced to literally destroy the opponent rather than let them use me as a punching bag...plus always risk of injury when things escalate.  In fact, I try to avoid free sparring most of the time.... reserving it for belt tests alone is my preference.... or occasional reality testing....  Guys like Jai do make an excellent reality test for mentally disciplined TMA, when that is appropriate...  Other than that, I could care less about getting in the ring and showing I can slug it out or not.... I walk away from the Jai-like guys unless it's formal testing.... then I take 'em out.... pissing some off to no end....
\
What I'd like to see is that kung fu instructor I mentioned earlier who challenged me (inappropriately) take out some of his frustration and need to demonstrate, do so against a Jai Harman....  I have no doubt that kung fu instructor could flatten many an opponent having Jai Harman skill sets.... Put these two together who feel the need to prove to others they can fight.   I know that kung fu instructor is for real, I don't need to test it....  what i do need to do is train it.... that's why I was in his kung fu class...


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Out of that entire video this is what I noticed the most. Jai clearly had more skills to the point where he could have easily demonstrated good Wing Chun or good Muay Thai, or good Kickboxing skills and technique, but he didn't do it. Instead he just freestyle attacked the guy.  He did a little bit of boxing, a little bit of Muay Thai, a little bit of show boating and none of it really showing an ability of technique. Things like punching with elbows out and only generating power with the arms really stood out to me.


\
Here's my kumite training approach illustrated by an instructor who has my personality and appearance... though formally he is much more impressive...



\
The point is not the hard physical form we see outwardly in Shotokan.  The point is the mental discipline it takes to execute these tactics in real time.... developed through the 1-step process.... Once the mental facilities are developed to a high level... then the minor adjustments you speak of in your sparring training, can be made instantaneously & precisely to meet any adaptation or adjustment of the technique by the opponent...
\
Of course the smart aleck answers to my posts apparent by some above indicate those like minded will never acquire the mental discipline to become accomplished at TMA.  They belong with Jai & Co., duk-ing it out.... and no amount of belts or supposed training of different fighting styles will ever overcome their fundamental lack of mental discipline.
\
Jai boys, good luck with that....
\
EDIT: Note that the instructor employs a karate guard which transitions into technique for both defense & offense.  Note that the instructor moves in response to the action of the opponent, transitions into stances which tactically change his location.  Note that the techniques serve a tactical purpose and work together....  Note that the instructor expects you to listen & think about what the 1-step is accomplishing, instead of the kind of responses I just received above which are just rhetoric and don't address the principles this instructor is attempting to convey....  The Jai kind of martial artist is going to be drawn to rhetoric and the kind of training exhibited in his vids, and he is going to have loads of company..... but it is not TMA which is truly represented by the Shotokan instructor in my YT vid.


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Out of that entire video this is what I noticed the most. Jai clearly had more skills to the point where he could have easily demonstrated good Wing Chun or good Muay Thai, or good Kickboxing skills and technique, but he didn't do it. Instead he just freestyle attacked the guy.  He did a little bit of boxing, a little bit of Muay Thai, a little bit of show boating and none of it really showing an ability of technique. Things like punching with elbows out and only generating power with the arms really stood out to me.


\
Ya know I can readily point how how karate fighters in MMA make the same kind of mistakes....  Wonderboy, who is pretty much tearing up the MMA competition, makes major traditional karate mistakes all the time....  there's a couple of great highlight YT vids out on Wonderboy.  His only MMA loss is to Matt Brown, not unsurprisingly to me, a Muay Thai stylist....
\
When Matt Brown really comes on strong, you can see  Wonderboy at a loss with his sport karate with what to do... and starts head movement, ducking, backing up, etc.  Is that what the Shotokan instructor does in my Shotokan 1-step video from YT?  hell no!  The difference is having the mental discipline to stand & fight with that mental discipline in a deliberate & precise manner, defending, hitting strong & hitting hard at an earmarked target.  Wonderboy's sport karate is lacking in mental discipline, evident against Matt Brown. That is the big lesson in the Shotokan karate style (super - over- emphasized), for all it's faults and unattractive qualities....  Get that big lesson correct, and Matt Brown will be stopped in his tracks.... the fact that Shotokan is far from perfect in many regards won't really matter.
\
A truly good Shotokan karateka traditionalist will knock the Jai Harman's of the world right out of the ring....IMO  The trick is to become a truly mentally disciplined karate fighter... or CMA, etc...  Putting that Shotokan instructor's lesson into action can't be done by physical training; it's only done by concerted mental training.... led by angels like me...
\
Hasty Edit: Strike "me" and replace with "the YT Vid Shotokan karate instructor."


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Out of that entire video this is what I noticed the most. Jai clearly had more skills to the point where he could have easily demonstrated good Wing Chun or good Muay Thai, or good Kickboxing skills and technique, but he didn't do it. Instead he just freestyle attacked the guy.  He did a little bit of boxing, a little bit of Muay Thai, a little bit of show boating and none of it really showing an ability of technique. Things like punching with elbows out and only generating power with the arms really stood out to me.


\
If i look at your counter... a hook-like punch from the outside... it's more akin to boxing, or kenpo tactics... which kempo to me is applied kung fu.  What I propose is more straightforward... akin to what the Shotokan Instructor shows in his 2nd embedded 1-step Video selection within the YT video.
\
The relevance to Wing Chun, is if the Jai Harman's can't begin to exhibit the discipline of Shotokan karate done well.... then how in the world can those in his shoes hope to accomplish something as sophisticated as Wing Chun kung fu which to me is Shotokan karate discipline x 50?  It's no wonder we don't see competent WC or WC succeed in MMA, cause it's just to hard for Mr. Sporting Competitor to fathom, let alone muster the mental training to accomplish traditional WC kung fu.  It's no wonder we see those who have claimed to have skill in WC actually end up exhibiting what we see Jai Harman do in his YT vid.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> I have no doubt that kung fu instructor could flatten many an opponent having Jai Harman skill sets


 No instructor needed.  I don't see why a kung fu student that knows how to apply their technique would have a problem sparring against him.

I also understand what you are saying about the mental training. My school has a training session where we one student attacks with a '10 hit combo" while the other student is there defending or taking cover in a guard.  The purpose of the 10 hit combo isn't to hurt so there is no danger of injury.  The purpose of the 10 hit combo is to be a distraction to focus.  We use this drill  to train focus, get rid of the fear of being hit, and train the ability to see through "flying fists".

In the video from the Original post you can see where the fighter mentally falls apart where the combos start coming in. He goes from thinking about fighting to trying not to get hit. He was beaten so mentally that he was still covering as if he was being hit even though Jai had stopped punching.



ShotoNoob said:


> If i look at your counter... a hook-like punch from the outside... it's more akin to boxing


 yes it definitely does look that way but there's a difference in how we throw it and the parts of the fist that we use. Other than that the only two people that would notice the difference is the one throwing it and the one receiving it.  Even to me looking at the images it looks like a boxer's hook. People probably wouldn't recognize it if they saw it used in a form.


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## guy b. (Nov 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> The relevance to Wing Chun, is if the Jai Harman's can't begin to exhibit the discipline of Shotokan karate done well.... then how in the world can those in his shoes hope to accomplish something as sophisticated as Wing Chun kung fu which to me is Shotokan karate discipline x 50?  It's no wonder we don't see competent WC or WC succeed in MMA, cause it's just to hard for Mr. Sporting Competitor to fathom, let alone muster the mental training to accomplish traditional WC kung fu.  It's no wonder we see those who have claimed to have skill in WC actually end up exhibiting what we see Jai Harman do in his YT vid.



I think Jai Harman probably does have skill in wing chun.

Wing chun training is not at all like one step karate sparring. There is a metal method but I wouldn't say it is 50 times more difficult than karate's method to internalise. In fact, since it actually works, I would say that it is easier. Wing chun is quite simple to understand. More difficult to do it well. A matter of practise more than anything else.


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> No instructor needed.  I don't see why a kung fu student that knows how to apply their technique would have a problem sparring against him.


\
By your philosophy, you are perfectly correct.  The premise, however, is your philosophy.  I tried to state that I recognize your philosophy and approach to sparring in my posts... probably got lost in my long-winded prose....  So by your perspective, by all means proceeds that way....



JowGaWolf said:


> I also understand what you are saying about the mental training. My school has a training session where we one student attacks with a '10 hit combo" while the other student is there defending or taking cover in a guard.  The purpose of the 10 hit combo isn't to hurt so there is no danger of injury.  The purpose of the 10 hit combo is to be a distraction to focus.  We use this drill  to train focus, get rid of the fear of being hit, and train the ability to see through "flying fists".


\
Well it's nice to see a formal recognition of the issue, the mental dimension.  I differ in that yours is a pressure testing scenario, controlled tightly of course.  I've never really engaged in such mental conditioning exercises as you describe.  I built my mental discipline without pressure testing and it's become very, very strong.  I use the approach described by the Shotokan master instructor in my YT vid on Shotokan 1-steps, and the additional embedded Shotokan vids in that vid, if you want more material, examples....
\
This is of course problematic, if not impossible to convey over the internet.... what I am saying can only point to the concept.  The mental discipline strength that I am talking about is wholly internally generated... no outside influence is necessary....  Hence, this is why I can agree in principle with the kung fu instructor, that the gentleman who really mastered 1 kungfu form becomes unbeatable by those who haven't mastered the same level of mental discipline it took to actually master that form.... and kung  fu forms are chocked with substance about building mental discipline...  A major by-product of that strong mental discipline is KIME,or focus, or even a broader interpretation.... which is what you are also after in your 'pressure testing' exercise I've quoted above...



JowGaWolf said:


> In the video from the Original post you can see where the fighter mentally falls apart where the combos start coming in. He goes from thinking about fighting to trying not to get hit. He was beaten so mentally that he was still covering as if he was being hit even though Jai had stopped punching.


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EXCELLENT interpretation of the problem statement.  The mental collapse you speak of is actually on several fronts.... including on not having clue how to fight....  he's basically a victim in my book....  traditional karate prepares winners, not victims... by an arduous and long-term training regimen.  of which free sparring is minor portion....  Here, Jai's opponent is forced back into the animal-like protective state.... the reverse end of the spectrum by TMA training theory....
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Check out a Wonderboy (kenpo karate base) vs. Matt Brown (Muay Thai, BJJ base) UFC highlight... you're the sparring aficionado....Wonderboy for all his experience sparring and actually competing (>100 tournament matches), for all his Kenpo black-belt karate training by his dad,,,, ends up many-a-time looking just like Jai's befuddled opponent.... at a loss, on the run, getting his head pounded in, knocked to the ground.... all in the face of Matt Brown's aggressive Muay Thai...  Same problem, not enough mental discipline....  Nothing wrong with Wonderboy's ability (as a general proposition) to kick and punch.  But against a truly tough opponent who can stand & bang, personified by Matt Brown.... Wonderboy is time & again mentally on the losing end through out that fight....
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Now kenpo karate IMO is much more sophisticated than the Shotokan karate I posted in the Instructor-led 1-step vid.  Caveat is, it also takes then more mental discipline to effect.  The lesson of the Shotokan 1-step vid is that it is more effective to do a simple defense & linear strike or two with strong mental disciple in the face of  Matt Brown than just rely on physicality & good tactical gambits (Wonderboy) that Brown is strong enough to stand up to and come again onto you. Wonderboy's athletics & mental capability has worked superbly against his other MMA competiton to date... but they are the pretty standard MMA quality which means comparatively weak striking & definitely weak mental discipline....
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The Wonderboy / Matt Brown UFC fight makes a great sparring / reality testing case study....


JowGaWolf said:


> yes it definitely does look that way but there's a difference in how we throw it and the parts of the fist that we use. Other than that the only two people that would notice the difference is the one throwing it and the one receiving it.  Even to me looking at the images it looks like a boxer's hook. People probably wouldn't recognize it if they saw it used in a form.


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Well, I'm not an expert on your style... but I'm aware of such nuances....  The greater lesson I take from your illustration of that counter is that your opponents are too into landing a scoring blow,,, and not much else...  The Shotokan Instructor in his series on the 1-steps specifically addresses this issue, as does all the karate kata, kihon technique  exercises,strictly speaking....  Most students at my dojo, and instructors too can't really apply the 1-step principles well.... it's a mental process & they are too physical....  Hence, we have the shift to your approach of learning in actual sparring....


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I think Jai Harman probably does have skill in wing chun.
> 
> Wing chun training is not at all like one step karate sparring. There is a metal method but I wouldn't say it is 50 times more difficult than karate's method to internalise. In fact, since it actually works, I would say that it is easier. Wing chun is quite simple to understand. More difficult to do it well. A matter of practise more than anything else.


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A new poster. Hmmm. Jai may well have experience with the WC style.  I would say WC is way, way, way more mentally dependent than the japanese-like karates..... and that's why in my book,,, WC we see applied publicly is typically a massive fail 'cause the practitioner like Jai can't really do it to CMA standards.... We see alot of cut & paste of physical WC form which is pretty much vulnerable to the boxer or street fighter....not CMA WC....
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And I don't believe wing chun is simple to understand.... it's a specialized style of kung fu, and kung is very very sophisticated and complex in the mental dimension.... karate doesn't really measure up to kung fu mentally... though it can approach....
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Obviously WC can be practical.... and one can develop a practical WC form on athletics alone.... but it's not TMA, let alone WC.
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Unless you are wiling to become a disciple of an Ip Man-type master and complete the regimen to that standard.... WC is not for MMA or even a realistic alternative to traditional karate...IMHO.


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## guy b. (Nov 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> A new poster. Hmmm. Jai may well have experience with the WC style.  I would say WC is way, way, way more mentally dependent than the japanese-like karates..... and that's why in my book,,, WC we see applied publicly is typically a massive fail 'cause the practitioner like Jai can't really do it to CMA standards.... We see alot of cut & paste of physical WC form which is pretty much vulnerable to the boxer or street fighter....not CMA WC....
> \
> And I don't believe wing chun is simple to understand.... it's a specialized style of kung fu, and kung is very very sophisticated and complex in the mental dimension.... karate doesn't really measure up to kung fu mentally... though it can approach....
> ...



I'm not a new poster.

What do you know about wing chun? I don't see the relevance of karate anecdotes.

Wing chun is extremely simple to understand, there is no mystery. It just takes a lot of work to translate into reality


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

HERE'S CMA WING CHUN (SUPER NIFTY UNIFORMS)DRILLING:
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NOW IMAGE USING THIS AGAINST JAI HARMAN'S KICKBOXING....




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Here's my points:
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1. This is way more sophisticated and potentially effective compared to the rigid strength-based Shotokan 1Step YT Vid I posted.
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2. The mental discipline to muster this kind of skill for combat, what's required if off the charts compared to the simple block/ strike of karate...  Do we Jai looking like this in the ring.... wonder why... pause for thought....
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3. JA gOW, we don't see all the head movement, body twisting, applied parrying typical in your form.  That's because the mental discipline of the mind once WC strong.... can perform these drills in real combat.... .good luck on getting your mind strong enough to actualize these WC techniques....
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4. The design of these WC techniques & tactics will wipe out Jai Harman kickboxer.  So why doesn't this happen.... Because developing the true WC base is a humongous task compared to Jai Harman's good kickboxing....  Could either of the demo people in this WC vid actively compete against Jai Harman.... we just don't see it happening....  what we see is Jai Harmon like kickboxers competing against Jai Harmon-like kickboxers....  'cause it's so much more readily done....


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I'm not a new poster.
> 
> What do you know about wing chun? I don't see the relevance of karate anecdotes.
> 
> Wing chun is extremely simple to understand, there is no mystery. It just takes a lot of work to translate into reality





guy b. said:


> I'm not a new poster.
> 
> What do you know about wing chun? I don't see the relevance of karate anecdotes.
> 
> Wing chun is extremely simple to understand, there is no mystery. It just takes a lot of work to translate into reality


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Well ok then... you and Jai take it away....


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## guy b. (Nov 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> HERE'S CMA WING CHUN (SUPER NIFTY UNIFORMS)DRILLING:
> \
> NOW IMAGE USING THIS AGAINST JAI HARMAN'S KICKBOXING....
> 
> ...



This is your example of good wing chun?!?



> 2. The mental discipline to muster this kind of skill for combat, what's required if off the charts compared to the simple block/ strike of karate...  Do we Jai looking like this in the ring.... wonder why... pause for thought....



This won't work anywhere ever



> 3. JA gOW, we don't see all the head movement, body twisting, applied parrying typical in your form.  That's because the mental discipline of the mind once WC strong.... can perform these drills in real combat.... .good luck on getting your mind strong enough to actualize these WC techniques....



What's "your form"?



> 4. The design of these WC techniques & tactics will wipe out Jai Harman kickboxer.  So why doesn't this happen.... Because developing the true WC base is a humongous task compared to Jai Harman's good kickboxing....  Could either of the demo people in this WC vid actively compete against Jai Harman.... we just don't see it happening....  what we see is Jai Harmon like kickboxers competing against Jai Harmon-like kickboxers....  'cause it's so much more readily done....



Jai Harman is not a kickboxer.


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## guy b. (Nov 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Well ok then... you and Jai take it away....



You don't seem to know much about wing chun?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> By your philosophy, you are perfectly correct. The premise, however, is your philosophy. I tried to state that I recognize your philosophy and approach to sparring in my posts... probably got lost in my long-winded prose.... So by your perspective, by all means proceeds that way


  yep there's some misunderstanding.  I was just pretty much saying that an instructor wouldn't have any trouble with Jai.  If I was going to match him with someone  it would be an intermediate or skill level person.  My comment about "No Instructor needed" wasn't referring to the philosophy. Just pointing out Jai skills (that he showed) would be barely considered intermediate in some fighting systems.


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## guy b. (Nov 1, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> yep there's some misunderstanding.  I was just pretty much saying that an instructor wouldn't have any trouble with Jai.  If I was going to match him with someone  it would be an intermediate or skill level person.  My comment about "No Instructor needed" wasn't referring to the philosophy. Just pointing out Jai skills (that he showed) would be barely considered intermediate in some fighting systems.



Any intructor would have no trouble fighting Jai Harman? Have I strayed into the twilight zone?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Check out a Wonderboy (kenpo karate base) vs. Matt Brown (Muay Thai, BJJ base) UFC highlight.


 Seems like a good fight form what I saw. They're both excellent fighters, but they both threw away a lot of fundamentals and paid dearly for it.  Hopefully I'll be able to find the full fight video of it.



ShotoNoob said:


> Well, I'm not an expert on your style... but I'm aware of such nuances.... The greater lesson I take from your illustration of that counter is that your opponents are too into landing a scoring blow,,, and not much else


 Correct.  My rule is to fight my opponent where he isn't.  This is both physically and mentally.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Any intructor would have no trouble fighting Jai Harman? Have I strayed into the twilight zone?


I didn't say any instructor.  Reread my comment, that you quoted.
My comments about Jai are based on his sparring videos that he posted on Youtube.  That's all that I have to go on and from what I see, there's nothing that I would be overly concerned with, based on how I have seen other people fight.  As for instructors of schools that train to fight, they are usually very skilled with their techniques so I don't see how my comment would be "twilight zone" material.  If you know something about Jai that would prove otherwise then feel free to inform us.  But based on the videos that I saw his stance is weak and he over commits on his punches and movement.


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> yep there's some misunderstanding.  I was just pretty much saying that an instructor wouldn't have any trouble with Jai.  If I was going to match him with someone  it would be an intermediate or skill level person.  My comment about "No Instructor needed" wasn't referring to the philosophy. Just pointing out Jai skills (that he showed) would be barely considered intermediate in some fighting systems.


\
Yes, I concur completely given the video samples of his competition style...


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 1, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Seems like a good fight form what I saw. They're both excellent fighters, but they both threw away a lot of fundamentals and paid dearly for it.  Hopefully I'll be able to find the full fight video of it.


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JowGaWolf said:


> Correct.  My rule is to fight my opponent where he isn't.  This is both physically and mentally.


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That statement I can't handle...


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## ShotoNoob (Nov 2, 2015)

ON Thompson vs. Brown Highlight.... weLL?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> ON Thompson vs. Brown Highlight.... weLL?


Here's my read on the Thompson vs Brown Hightlight.
0:28 wasted kick to the face.  Within the same amount of time Thompson could have ended the fight with a kick to the ribs provided it was hard and solid enough to break them or bruise them.  The timing of the kick was good, but the type of kick was wrong. (I'm referring to the kick to the body at 0:28).  A person that prefers kicking to the body instead of the head would have kick to the body when the opponent tries to long punch to the head.

1:33 Thompson had brown backpedaling and should have used a low sweep while brown was unstable. Unstable footing is the idea to do low sweeps.  Even if brown doesn't fall from the sweep, he'll have to use a lot of energy to keep from falling.  If he falls then he'll use a lot of energy to get back up. Fighters usually miss opportunities for sweeps because they aren't looking for them.

Thompson does a lot of head hunting. Punches to the biceps and triceps helps to slow down punches, if they are open then they should be attacked when the hands are are covering the head.

Thompson at 2:41 should have been sweeping the mess out of Brown running away or at a bare minimum kicking the back of those legs.

Brown did a better job at attacking a backpedaling Thompson.  In my school we are taught not to backpedal as it makes things worse.  For me if I see my opponent backpedal then I'm going to take away his root. A person can't kick when they are back pedaling

I saw a lot of things that I would have clearly taken advantage of.  To me it didn't look like they were fighting with a specific strategy.  Strategy for fighting high kickers is to move in on the high kick, sweep the standing leg of the high kick. As seen in the video below.





Strategy for jab or cross is to parry it and then counter. I didn't see much of that.  They both also fought with their hands down low.  Brown always covered the right side of his head as if he was going to get kicked on the right side. This often left is face open for a punch.  If he fought with his hands up then he wouldn't have to guard like that.

There wasn't enough body work, both were trying to fight upstairs a lot, which goes back to how I fight. "Fight my opponent where he isn't." If both fists are flying at my face then everything below that punch is open and that's where I need to counter.  If kick comes to my head then there's an open at the bottom. If my opponent is kicking me low then I fight above the kick.  Watch the video with that in mind and you'll see all of the openings that I saw.

When I spar, I fight based on what my opponent gives me.  But they both seem determined to end the fight in a specific manner.


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