# How Much Does it Cost?



## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

I run a small Wing Chun school in Seattle's Chinatown. There's no storefront. I don't teach kids and my web site describes it as "non-commercial". The only statement on cost that I make on it is:

"Modest monthly dues enable us to share the expense of our training space and a few essential pieces of equipment. We do not require contracts or sell anything and never charge for tests, awards, or certificates."

95% of all inquiries just say something like "I'm interested. How much do you charge?"

That's it? No other questions? Not about the system or how we train or anything? Just cost?

Something about that just frustrates me. I get that money is tight for some people and I actually would rather teach working people. It just seems like the wrong way to approach it. Not really a question, I'm just venting and wondering if you all have similar experiences.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jan 24, 2017)

Well no ones going to train somewhere that charges a huge amount of money


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## KangTsai (Jan 24, 2017)

Well, they managed to find your under-advertised school and they clearly want to learn. To be honest I would ask that too, I mean, they surely have the most basic baby's grip on what the heck wing chun is, they know they're going to be taught it, and whatever else happens doesn't matter however it plays out. It would be frustrating, for sure, but I don't think they lack any respect.


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## Tames D (Jan 24, 2017)

I think they want to know if they can afford it before getting too excited about the details of the art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> I run a small Wing Chun school in Seattle's Chinatown. There's no storefront. I don't teach kids and my web site describes it as "non-commercial". The only statement on cost that I make on it is:
> 
> "Modest monthly dues enable us to share the expense of our training space and a few essential pieces of equipment. We do not require contracts or sell anything and never charge for tests, awards, or certificates."
> 
> ...


Most people don't know enough to ask much before they walk in. Most are calling to find out if it's worth visiting. Let's say I want to train in MA (and I am untrained), and live next door to your school. So, living next door, I'd probably just visit and find out what the place is like and what it costs. However, if I lives further away, I'd call first to see if it was worth the trip. It wouldn't matter how good you were if it cost $250/month. That's not the highest rate I've seen, but it's more than we can afford right now.


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## Jedmus (Jan 24, 2017)

Personally, I would need to know how much I could be expected to pay before I looked into a club. If I went somewhere and absolutely loved it but found out I couldn't afford the fees I would be extremely disappointed and would have wasted the instructors and my time


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## clfsean (Jan 24, 2017)

I was teaching CLF at a rec center more than a few years back & didn't charge. People didn't believe me & I nearly no students. I started charging close to $100 a month & I had people lining up. 

Charge what you can based on what the area supports.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

I get it. I understand that cost and finances are important.

...I get it...


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## yak sao (Jan 24, 2017)

If I came across your advertisement it sounds like a place I would definitely check into .
 Maybe reword your advertisement . Instead of saying we charge modest dues, don't charge for anything etc. , state right up front the cost of classes, no contracts , no hidden fees.
 So instead of justifying what you're charging to people you are stating right upfront what you expect to be paid.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

yak sao said:


> If I came across your advertisement it sounds like a place I would definitely check into .
> Maybe reword your advertisement . Instead of saying we charge modest dues, don't charge for anything etc. , state right up front the cost of classes, no contracts , no hidden fees.
> So instead of justifying what you're charging to people you are stating right upfront what you expect to be paid.



Not bad advice. I just hate that it has to be about money.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Not bad advice. I just hate that it has to be about money.


It's not really about the money. The money is just something you have to deal with so you can teach.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

A friend who is a software developer once said "It would be a much better job if there were no users."

I guess it's kind of the same thing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> A friend who is a software developer once said "It would be a much better job if there were no users."
> 
> I guess it's kind of the same thing.


Yes. If I were wealthy, and it wouldn't hurt other instructors, and people would show up for "free", I'd just teach for free. Unfortunately, that's 3 "if's" that don't hold up.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

I considered teaching for free as well, but I needed to rent a space and I wanted to incorporate, so that if someone got inadvertently poked in the eye it would be hard for them to come after my house. And, I spend a bit of money keeping my website up and a few other misc expenses. 

My monthly dues are exactly on-par with a few similar schools in town and well under others. One of the reasons I don't make them public is that I don't want to undercut anyone. I would never want anyone who wanted or needed training not to get it because they couldn't afford it, but I also don't want to lure people away from other choices with my low-low prices. I've tried to take money out of the equation as much as possible so that people could make the choices that are right for them and we could focus on training.

I suppose that I feel differently when someone is inquiring and it's ONE of the things they want to know vs THE thing they felt compelled to contact me about.

Eh, I'm just whining. Ignore me.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 24, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> 95% of all inquiries just say something like "I'm interested. How much do you charge?"
> 
> That's it? No other questions? Not about the system or how we train or anything? Just cost?



It is a wonderful filter.  Consider it a gift.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> I considered teaching for free as well, but I needed to rent a space and I wanted to incorporate, so that if someone got inadvertently poked in the eye it would be hard for them to come after my house. And, I spend a bit of money keeping my website up and a few other misc expenses.
> 
> My monthly dues are exactly on-par with a few similar schools in town and well under others. One of the reasons I don't make them public is that I don't want to undercut anyone. I would never want anyone who wanted or needed training not to get it because they couldn't afford it, but I also don't want to lure people away from other choices with my low-low prices. I've tried to take money out of the equation as much as possible so that people could make the choices that are right for them and we could focus on training.
> 
> ...


Something that has shown up in some research is that not telling the price can increase a customer's focus on price. This appears to be especially true when you talk about the price without providing it. Best approach appears to be either don't mention money at all, or go ahead and put the price out there.

(Note: I've seen evidence that contradicts these findings, but these seem to be the more supported conclusions.)


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## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

That makes sense. Maybe I'll change the verbiage for February and make note of the results.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 24, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> That makes sense. Maybe I'll change the verbiage for February and make note of the results.


I'd love to hear an update after you try that. I'm currently doing both approaches, at once. My website mentions no price. Flyers at the center where I teach provide price. I don't do any other marketing, so neither has much impact.

(I'm currently running a Groupon promotion. That obviously includes price, but that's a different matter.)


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## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

I might and I will update you if I think I get some data. I only have 2 maybe 3 spots available right now before I have to start turning people away. I generally try to stay below the radar and then advertise once a year in coordination with Lunar New Year (which is this weekend) and then drop below the radar again. 

So, this is not the week to experiment and as Bill pointed out, it's a good filter and I need a filter during this annual campaign, so maybe it will suit me. 

It's a weird thing that we do...


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## Kickboxer101 (Jan 24, 2017)

Honestly I'd say that's good they're asking the price. Most untrained won't know a thing about martial arts so won't really know what to ask and they could ask silly questions like can I be a ninja turtle in2 weeks but if they're asking the price that shows they're considering it and considering paying out. 

Fact is money is important in this world it'd be great if it wasn't but it is. Money and savings is more important than martial art training so most aren't going to go broke doing classes that's why they ask


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 24, 2017)

I took a look at your website. Most of the obvious questions besides price I might want to ask are already covered. The remaining ones are stuff I would want to see in person anyway.

A potential student with no background either won't know what questions to ask or will have a bunch of silly questions you'd rather not deal with anyway. ("Will I learn to break bricks? How long will it take my 8 year old to get his black belt? Do you fight in the UFC?")


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## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Fact is money is important in this world it'd be great if it wasn't but it is. Money and savings is more important than martial art training so most aren't going to go broke doing classes that's why they ask



You're right...I know, you're right.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 24, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I took a look at your website. Most of the obvious questions besides price I might want to ask are already covered. The remaining ones are stuff I would want to see in person anyway.
> 
> ...



Maybe I should be less forthright on everything else, to prompt better questions.


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## JR 137 (Jan 24, 2017)

I always encourage newbies who come here asking what style to take to do the same thing...

Make a list of all MA schools in the area, eliminate the ones they can't afford, and the ones that don't align with their schedule.  Visit the rest.

I always ask price, and it's typically one of the first questions I ask.  It turns a lot of instructors off for some reason.  The way I look at it, as a potential student, is if I can't afford it, let's not waste each other's time.  It doesn't matter how good the instruction is, if I can't afford it, I can't train there.  I'd love to drive a Porsche 911 Turbo every day, but I can't afford that either.

There was a place locally that I'd have liked to join. If me, my wife, my 6 year old and 4 year old joined, it would have been almost $400/month.  And that included discounts with their family plan.  That's more than my car payment was at the time.  

Like just about everyone else, I wish cost was no object.  Until that day comes, I have to ask how much.  Good thing that found my current dojo; it's the best dojo I found in the area, and it's cheap.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm not sure why I started this thread, but I'm actually learning some things from your responses and may change my approach as a result, so thank you. I basically advertise once a year, during Chinese New Year (tomorrow) and usually stay full for the year and don't normally have open spots available, but because of my current ad push, I'm getting more calls than normal and it is interesting to me to see patterns in the dialogue. Some are very good, by the way.




JR 137 said:


> I always encourage newbies who come here asking what style to take to do the same thing...
> ...
> I always ask price, and it's typically one of the first questions I ask.  It turns a lot of instructors off for some reason.
> ...
> The way I look at it, as a potential student, is if I can't afford it, let's not waste each other's time.  ...



You typed some things that helped me, so let me try to explain the part that you said you don't really get from my perspective. As others have pointed out, I deliberately didn't put the cost on my website, that may be prompting the question and I'll consider that, but it's also I sign that I don't really want it to be public. So, when someone contacts me and ONLY asks that, they're just fishing for information that I clearly withheld. I'd like to know who they are and what their interest is, ideally before I share.

When I visit a kung fu teacher of any kind in their space, even if they are junior to me, the first thing I do is thank them for having me and discretely press a red envelope into their hand with enough money in it to buy themselves a beer. This is universal code for "I respect who you are and I'm not here to be any trouble to you." It opens up tremendous doors for me.

I don't expect someone not on the inside to be quite there, but I would like them to tell me who they are, tell me why they're contacting me e.g.- "I trained x years ago and am interested in starting up again because y." and it seems like there are a few critical things that they would want to know about us, - like how do we train? Is it dangerous? What do I think about x? In that line of questioning, logistics like "what do you charge?" and "do I need any special equipment?" is fine.

Oddly enough, most of the people who ask, never follow through. The one who prompted me to start this finally caught up with me and said he is not available on our class nights....which are posted on my website...so he really didn't need to know what I charge and he actually did waste both of our times.

What I have learned from this discussion is that by not making it public, I may be making people concerned that it isn't affordable. The irony is that I'm under-priced for the market, which is one of the reasons, I don't have it posted. I don't want to undercut the sifu up the block and I don't want people choosing us because we're cheap.

I get that I'm marketing a service to the public and in marketing (I'm told) if you're not getting the response you desire, you have to change something about your marketing and I will consider and do so at some point. But, sheesh.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 27, 2017)

Side note, I just got a call from a 21 year old man who has been trying to learn on YouTube and expressed an interest in formal training, was very respectful, asked all the right questions, NEVER ASKED what I charged, and offered to meet me for tea. 

I love this kid already.


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## JR 137 (Jan 27, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> I'm not sure why I started this thread, but I'm actually learning some things from your responses and may change my approach as a result, so thank you. I basically advertise once a year, during Chinese New Year (tomorrow) and usually stay full for the year and don't normally have open spots available, but because of my current ad push, I'm getting more calls than normal and it is interesting to me to see patterns in the dialogue. Some are very good, by the way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not saying call or stop in and make the first thing you say is "How much?"  That's just rude.  For the sake of argument, here's more or less what I did when I was looking to restart my training around 2 years...

Hello.  I'm currently looking to restart martial arts training after about 15 years off.  I've seen your website and what I think you do looks interesting.  Unfortunately being a private school teacher and having 2 little ones doesn't leave me much disposable income these days, so I have to ask about how much do you charge for tuition?

There's usually breaks in that conversation, due to being asked questions by the person answering the phone, and answers from me.

There were several places that didn't want to disclose how much they charge.  A few said I should take an intro class, then we could discuss tuition.  I don't run a dojo so I don't fully understand their side of it, but as a potential student, it turned me off.  My reply was usually a polite "I'm very interested in your school, but I don't want to take a free lesson and potentially waste your time if I can't afford your school.  It's the same principle as I don't test drive a car without knowing I can afford it."

Most of them chuckled and gave me a price.  2 still refused.  One said they don't reveal their price until after 3 private assessment lessons.  After speaking to a few students and parents, it's quite obvious it's a highway robbery belt mill.

I visited most places rather than calling.  I figure stopping in and a face to face conversation is better than a phone call out of the blue.  I called a few though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Side note, I just got a call from a 21 year old man who has been trying to learn on YouTube and expressed an interest in formal training, was very respectful, asked all the right questions, NEVER ASKED what I charged, and offered to meet me for tea.
> 
> I love this kid already.


Here's an interesting note. I wouldn't be as interested in him as you are. And I wouldn't be as irked by the money question. And I'd find it odd if someone visiting my school slipped me money. None of that is wrong, I just have different expectations. My point in this is that perhaps your website speaks to my audience, and not yours. I'm not sure how to fix that, but it's something to think about.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 27, 2017)

That all seems very reasonable and respectful on your part and shady on the part of the places that wanted to hook you without answering your question.

That's not the type of dialogue I'm reacting to and I'm happy to talk about it with people once I know who they are and that they are sincerely interested.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Here's an interesting note. I wouldn't be as interested in him as you are. And I wouldn't be as irked by the money question. And I'd find it odd if someone visiting my school slipped me money. None of that is wrong, I just have different expectations. My point in this is that perhaps your website speaks to my audience, and not yours. I'm not sure how to fix that, but it's something to think about.



Interesting, tell me why. And remind me what system you teach. The "lucky envelope" is a Chinese thing, I would not do it in a Japanese school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Interesting, tell me why. And remind me what system you teach. The "lucky envelope" is a Chinese thing, I would not do it in a Japanese school.


I teach Japanese art that's a cousin to Ueshiba's Aikido. 

I can't really clearly spell out the why in all of it. Let me try a bit, though. Something like going for tea (or coffee, or beer) seems awfully personal for someone asking about classes. That might not bother me if they had stopped by and talked to me and we started a good conversation first, but otherwise it just seems odd as a starting point - well outside my normal experience. As for the money question, to me it's a natural question to ask, so it doesn't bother me if that's the first thing they ask. They are likely outside the MA culture, so I rather expect them to take a retail approach at first. And the lucky envelope, you already addressed.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 27, 2017)

I studied Daito-Ryu briefly a million years ago. Close?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> I studied Daito-Ryu briefly a million years ago. Close?


That's the primary source art for Nihon Goshin Aikido. We also incorporate some striking from Shotokan Karate and some principles from Judo, and possibly some directly from Ueshiba's Aikido.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 27, 2017)

I loved that style. I will say Chinese and Japanese systems are starkly different culturally.


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## JP3 (Jan 28, 2017)

Whatever you are charging your average student, just go ahead and put that on the website.  If nothing else, it'll cut way down on those types of calls and you won't feel the need to pull your hair out about it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Whatever you are charging your average student, just go ahead and put that on the website.  If nothing else, it'll cut way down on those types of calls and you won't feel the need to pull your hair out about it.


I think I agree with this. I understand not wanting to undercut the others in the area, but I don't think most students make their selection entirely based on price, anyway. If anything, you're likely to lend him some credibility in the view of some prospective students, as he is "able" to charge more.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 28, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Whatever you are charging your average student, just go ahead and put that on the website.  If nothing else, it'll cut way down on those types of calls and you won't feel the need to pull your hair out about it.



If you saw my shiny head, you'd fall out of your chair at this point.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 29, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> 95% of all inquiries just say something like "I'm interested. How much do you charge?"


 How do you answer this question?  Do you just answer the question or do you add additional information about the school along with the answer?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 29, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> If you saw my shiny head, you'd fall out of your chair at this point.


Damn! Too late!


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## ShortBridge (Jan 29, 2017)

I was walking around our Lunar New Year festival yesterday with a friend who teaches a Karate style in a fairly big dojo with kids classes and the whole bit. We were comparing notes on things like this and it made me aware of a couple of major differences in approach.

1) Commercial vs non-commerical / modern vs traditional approaches. If I was trying to grow more than I am, I'd need to be more American business-like about it. and

2) Chinese vs Japanese vs other culturally.

I'm guided somewhat by what I think is traditional in Chinese systems taught semi-privately. I chose my students, they chose me. I have a process that I take people through when they call and it usually results in (I hope) them saying "Wow that guy was really nice and super-helpful, but I'm going to check out some other places or maybe join a rock-climbing gym instead". I don't want to explain or hash this piece out too much, but there are suggestions of this elsewhere on my website and people who recognize it, push through it quite easily. I also know that I'm not Chinese, this isn't China and no one is trying to restore the Ming Dynasty, so I don't think I overdue it and frankly most people who inquire miss the whole thing. But, this is how I get good students and I have very good students and they count on me to bring new people in who will also be good students and not drag them down.

So, maybe that explains why "Dude, how much?" starts that process off on the wrong foot for me the way that it does.

But, here's what I'm going to do:

I think that I will be at capacity after this month or I'll have one theoretical spot that I could fill or leave open indefinitely, so there will be no hurry on my part. I have virtually zero attrition, so spots tend not to open up unless I decide to grow again or someone moves away. I'm continuing to work on my website and I think there needs to be a FAQ section in it's future. The next time I am actively fishing for a new student, I'll put the price up and see if I get better or worse responses as a result. And I'll report back...and I'll take the stick out of my *** about it all.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 29, 2017)

@gpseymour Clearly I'm a little bit guarded about publishing my price, even here, but from the other thread, where you did, I'll share that my prices and conditions are almost exactly the same as yours. A bit higher, but not nearly as much as the cost-of-living differences between our cities.

Except that if we add days that look and feel like private training, I don't charge for that and I don't do extra people discounts, because I don't have that much space and I don't really like to deal with couples as a package. They can join together, but they each have to deal with me separately.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 29, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> 95% of all inquiries just say something like "I'm interested. How much do you charge?"
> 
> That's it? No other questions? Not about the system or how we train or anything? Just cost?



Most people aren't going to know what else to ask.  So you can do one of two things, post the answer on your website.  Or, use their inquiry as what it is, the start of a conversation.  Like talking about weather, or asking someone how they are doing, it's just a way to start a conversation.  You can either give the answer and let them go away, or keep the conversation going and see if they are a good fit for your program.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 29, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> ...post the answer on your website.



I will try this at some point.



Andrew Green said:


> ...Or, use their inquiry as what it is, the start of a conversation.  Like talking about weather, or asking someone how they are doing, it's just a way to start a conversation.  You can either give the answer and let them go away, or keep the conversation going and see if they are a good fit for your program.



This is exactly how I respond to it now...except that then I ***** about it on MartialTalk.


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## JP3 (Jan 29, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> If you saw my shiny head, you'd fall out of your chair at this point.


Sorry I'm too late. Shoot.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 29, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Sorry I'm too late. Shoot.



Woulda, coulda, shoulda, JP3


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## JP3 (Jan 29, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Woulda, coulda, shoulda, JP3


Are you related to my wife? Man...

lol...


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## ShortBridge (Jan 29, 2017)

Maybe I am your wife. Never can tell with the internet.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 29, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> @gpseymour Clearly I'm a little bit guarded about publishing my price, even here, but from the other thread, where you did, I'll share that my prices and conditions are almost exactly the same as yours. A bit higher, but not nearly as much as the cost-of-living differences between our cities.
> 
> Except that if we add days that look and feel like private training, I don't charge for that and I don't do extra people discounts, because I don't have that much space and I don't really like to deal with couples as a package. They can join together, but they each have to deal with me separately.


If we added days that look and feel like private training, I'd be talking about half of my classes ATM (as I said, a very small program). 

With a closed program (I'm not sure what your space limitations are - I probably can't teach more than a total of 20, spread evenly across 3 classes of 15), you'd have no reason to offer the discount. My discount is mostly because I find that those who bring a partner are more likely to stay when life interferes. I've even considered offering the discount when they bring in a referral, for as long as that referral stays. Your prices seem more than reasonable, again, especially with the difference in COL between our areas.


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## JP3 (Jan 29, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Maybe I am your wife. Never can tell with the internet.



Nah, she's got a full head of long blonde hair.

But, more to the point, she would NEVER despair of telling someone how much it costs. Ever. Kind of her thing.


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## MacPark (Jun 8, 2018)

I know when I was looking at schools price was important. Some schools charge alot of and dont offer much in way of class where as others priced the same offered more classes etc. Its not the be all and end all and im happy to pay a good teacher but its an important starting point when looking up schools and comparing prices and timetables etc.


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## CrazedChris (Jun 9, 2018)

I know when I was looking, cost was a big thing, especially since I am now paying for 4 people.


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## marques (Jun 9, 2018)

As an instructor, I would not like. If a car costs $25,000, how would do we know if it is fair before knowing what car are we talking about. And students want to know the price before knowing the thing...

But as a student, I know how far I can or want to go in price. It just becomes a non option above a limite. Knowing the price, I can then try the style if it fits my budget; and schedule.


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## pdg (Jun 9, 2018)

marques said:


> As an instructor, I would not like. If a car costs $25,000, how would do we know if it is fair before knowing what car are we talking about. And students want to know the price before knowing the thing...
> 
> But as a student, I know how far I can or want to go in price. It just becomes a non option above a limite. Knowing the price, I can then try the style if it fits my budget; and schedule.



If you've got 20K to spend on a car, it doesn't matter what car it is or how good it is if it costs 25K... It may or may not be a fair price, but that can become irrelevant.

If the price was a secret until after a test drive, imagine how much time would be wasted by people who just can't justify the money (or simply can't afford it).

That's why car dealerships (and private adverts) put the price front and center for all to see - if it's in budget give it a try and if you like it, buy it.

Why is MA training different really?

If you won't discuss price until after an intro lesson or two, and your price is over budget that's a bunch of wasted time and some bad feelings straight off.

Unless you intend to bully the prospective student into paying more than they can afford anyway...

There's plenty of stories on the web about MA schools charging multiple hundreds per month with minimum term contracts - finding out if that's the case is surely part of due diligence on behalf of the student?

If I called a place about training the price would be one of the first questions I'd ask - if I got a cagey response or told "come and try first" I'd hang up and never bother again.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 9, 2018)

marques said:


> As an instructor, I would not like. If a car costs $25,000, how would do we know if it is fair before knowing what car are we talking about. And students want to know the price before knowing the thing...
> 
> But as a student, I know how far I can or want to go in price. It just becomes a non option above a limite. Knowing the price, I can then try the style if it fits my budget; and schedule.


I got a new car a couple months back, the price limit and the durability of the car were the only two things i cared about, mainly because i dont know cars. I assume its the same for someone trying MA who doesnt know MA


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## marques (Jun 9, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I got a new car a couple months back, the price limit and the durability of the car were the only two things i cared about, mainly because i dont know cars. I assume its the same for someone trying MA who doesnt know MA


Especially when it is _only_ for kids or fitness, [poor] students or for all family together, price becomes the main thing.

But the ones that usually can pay more, young adults, are also doing martial arts less and less... I feel.

This is a poor market, isn’t it? Which leads me to another question. Who can pay the bills only from martial arts instruction? I digress...


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## dvcochran (Jun 9, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> I run a small Wing Chun school in Seattle's Chinatown. There's no storefront. I don't teach kids and my web site describes it as "non-commercial". The only statement on cost that I make on it i, Is:
> 
> "Modest monthly dues enable us to share the expense of our training space and a few essential pieces of equipment. We do not require contracts or sell anything and never charge for tests, awards, or certificates."
> 
> ...



Reading your post and viewing your site I think you are setting yourself up for the frustration. Get the question out of the way so you and your perspective student can focus on class. If you are not for profit use that as part of your marketing but be ready to prove it if needed. I strongly suggest promoting trial classes. That is the perfect time to talk money as well. Unless you are worried about competition or setting a price, just advertise your pricing structure.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 9, 2018)

Price has never been an issue for any place I trained. It was an issue a few places I didn't.


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## JR 137 (Jun 10, 2018)

I still don’t get why the price is something to safeguard or keep from a prospective student until you think they’re a serious student.

For the ones that think if the student asks this before anything else, what’s the problem?  If you don’t want to discuss tuition because you think what you’re teaching is more important than the tuition and the prospective student only cares about the cost, then tell them the cost so you can both move on.  Are you ashamed to charge tuition?  Do you feel you’re charging too much? Do you think that a prospective student will tell you you’re charging too much?  Do you feel they’ll try to negotiate a lower rate like a bidding war between car dealers?

For those of you that don’t want to discuss it, it seems to me like you’re making it a far bigger deal by not discussing it.

If you wanted to learn to play the guitar, would you want the guitar teacher to go on and on about everything he/she does and avoid telling you how much he/she charges?  Or do you want to know if it fits within what you’re willing to spend?  Do you think the teacher should interview you and decide if you’re worthy of being their student before they give you a price?  What if you’re required to take an intro lesson or two before they’re willing to discuss the price?

I’m pretty sure you’d think they’ve got an inflated sense of themselves and/or what they’re teaching.  And you’d be right.  I’m pretty sure you’d find another teacher.  MA isn’t any different in this regard, no matter how much you tell yourself otherwise.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 11, 2018)

I've been away from MT for a good while, but I got notices that there were responses to my old thread, so I'm checking in. 

I'll say that none of you are wrong on this and I appreciate the perspectives you've each shared. I'm at capacity as far as how many students I'm willing to carry at any one time, so this hasn't really been an issue this year. If something happens and I'm considering adding students at some point, I'll consider a revised approach. I don't have much attrition, so we're a pretty stable group.

I charge less than most in my city, but so does my SiFu. We don't do that to undercut the market, but because we don't want to take what we don't need and I would never want someone who felt like training would be good for them to not get it because of cost. I don't want the market to look at us as the budget option or to be comparing the cost of our classes vs another club in the area. I also am concerned about the correlation of cost vs value. It's not a secret, I just don't like to publish it.

I prefer for people to contact me with interest, tell me what they are looking for and why and ask whatever questions they have about me or us or the system or how we train and unless that conversation goes poorly for some reason, I always offer a visit class for free and will tell them what our dues are. I'd be very skeptical of a student who said "Only $X? When do I start?" Without actually vetting us on more substantive points.

What I think I've learned from you guys' responses has been that by not putting it out there up front it is probably becoming a thing that I don't intend for it to be. That's not what I was going for and if I have spots open up in the future, I'll consider a different approach. Thanks everyone for their perspectives.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 11, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> Side note, I just got a call from a 21 year old man who has been trying to learn on YouTube and expressed an interest in formal training, was very respectful, asked all the right questions, NEVER ASKED what I charged, and offered to meet me for tea.
> 
> I love this kid already.





gpseymour said:


> ... I wouldn't be as interested in him as you are...



You guys prompted me to re-aquaint myself with this thread and I wanted to respond to a couple of things. The quotes above (Gary and I) made me smile. "This kid" has been with me almost a year and a half now. He's a GREAT student. He's developed really well in that time. He's worked hard and is way ahead of where I usually see people with this amount of time in. I'll ask him tonight at class what was going through his mind that week and how money factored into it. He's exactly the type of student that I want. I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't be thrilled to have him as a student.





JR 137 said:


> I'm not saying call or stop in and make the first thing you say is "How much?"  That's just rude.  For the sake of argument, here's more or less what I did when I was looking to restart my training around 2 years...
> 
> Hello.  I'm currently looking to restart martial arts training after about 15 years off.  I've seen your website and what I think you do looks interesting.  Unfortunately being a private school teacher and having 2 little ones doesn't leave me much disposable income these days, so I have to ask about how much do you charge for tuition?
> ...



I would not react negatively to that at all and I would give you a straight answer. That's not really what I was getting though. I would get entire emails that just said "how much?" which I still hate. 

Funny related story. One of my other students, who's been with me a bit over two years, initially emailed me and just said "location?" 

I don't have a storefront. I have some industrialish space in a basement. I forget how I replied exactly, but I would have either sent something equally terse and unhelpful like "Seattle" or "Chinatown" or I would have replied with something like "Hi, thanks for your note. Are you inquiring about training?". I don't remember what I went with, but we went back and forth 1/2 a dozen times before he would even tell me his name, but he was obsessed with knowing where, precisely, the kwoon was. I eventually told him to call me, we had a decent conversation and I invited him for a class and the rest is history.

We joke about this now and he says "I just couldn't handle not knowing where it was. I looked all up and down King Street and it just bugged me that I couldn't find it." I don't think that he was even interested in kung fu, but once he came that far he felt like he should give it a try. I taught him for the first year or more expecting every month to be the one that he flaked out and disappeared, but 2+ years later, he's still there and is going strong.

It is a funny thing that we do.


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## dvcochran (Jun 11, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> You guys prompted me to re-aquaint myself with this thread and I wanted to respond to a couple of things. The quotes above (Gary and I) made me smile. "This kid" has been with me almost a year and a half now. He's a GREAT student. He's developed really well in that time. He's worked hard and is way ahead of where I usually see people with this amount of time in. I'll ask him tonight at class what was going through his mind that week and how money factored into it. He's exactly the type of student that I want. I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't be thrilled to have him as a student.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's very refreshing to hear about such a fine young man. They are still out there but main stream media makes them harder to find. Congrats.


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## dvcochran (Jun 11, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> I've been away from MT for a good while, but I got notices that there were responses to my old thread, so I'm checking in.
> 
> I'll say that none of you are wrong on this and I appreciate the perspectives you've each shared. I'm at capacity as far as how many students I'm willing to carry at any one time, so this hasn't really been an issue this year. If something happens and I'm considering adding students at some point, I'll consider a revised approach. I don't have much attrition, so we're a pretty stable group.
> 
> ...



I hope to hear back the next time someone joins and hear how you approached all the cursory details.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> You guys prompted me to re-aquaint myself with this thread and I wanted to respond to a couple of things. The quotes above (Gary and I) made me smile. "This kid" has been with me almost a year and a half now. He's a GREAT student. He's developed really well in that time. He's worked hard and is way ahead of where I usually see people with this amount of time in. I'll ask him tonight at class what was going through his mind that week and how money factored into it. He's exactly the type of student that I want. I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't be thrilled to have him as a student.


I never said I wouldn't be interested, at all - just less than you. And that works out well, as you might be a better fit for him anyway. Of course, with hindsight, who wouldn't be happy to have a student who has fit in well and continued training past where most quit - and making good progress. Good on both of you!


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## ShortBridge (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I never said I wouldn't be interested, at all - just less than you. And that works out well, as you might be a better fit for him anyway. Of course, with hindsight, who wouldn't be happy to have a student who has fit in well and continued training past where most quit - and making good progress. Good on both of you!



It just goes to show what a guessing game it is with students.

I asked him last night what he remembered about contacting me and said mostly that he was nervous. I pointed out to him that he didn't ask about cost. He said that he was worried about it, but really wanted to train and was surprised that it was much less than he expected.

What I strive for really in this process is for the prospective student and I to both learn enough about each other to make our own best decisions. I direct a lot of people to other schools or teachers in this process, when I think that's best or sometimes just to see if they'll go.

I've been wanting to convert my site to Wordpress and I may do so this year and in the process update my language on things like dues.


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## Buka (Jun 12, 2018)

Nice to see you back, ShortBridge. Even nicer to see that you're still teaching.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 12, 2018)

Thank you, Buka.


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## evan.fedora (Jul 7, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> I run a small Wing Chun school in Seattle's Chinatown. There's no storefront. I don't teach kids and my web site describes it as "non-commercial". The only statement on cost that I make on it is:
> 
> "Modest monthly dues enable us to share the expense of our training space and a few essential pieces of equipment. We do not require contracts or sell anything and never charge for tests, awards, or certificates."
> 
> ...


 I have faced this for years, Now it does't hurt anymore, Wish You Luck for Future Though!!


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## Douwe Geluk (Oct 4, 2018)

@ShortBridge

I also run a school but only for Tai Chi Chuan and Chi Kung 'Bron van Geluk' in the Netherlands.

I often get that question also, what is the price. Well when they ask that, through email or the phone i just reply as follows:

Basically i say something like:
--------------------------------
Thank you for your email (call). The prices we have at our school are not expensive but we only give that information to people who actually do a trial lesson because only for those it matters.

A trial lesson is totally free, and after your trial lesson we can give you all the information you need to practise at our school, including the fees etc.

If you have more questions about our Tai Chi styles and our classes feel free to ask!

-------------------------

Then some route information to.my school and basically thats it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

Douwe Geluk said:


> @ShortBridge
> 
> I also run a school but only for Tai Chi Chuan and Chi Kung 'Bron van Geluk' in the Netherlands.
> 
> ...


Why don't you want to give them that information up front? It actually matters to some - to those for whom you don't fit into the budget. If I know I have  a certain amount I can afford to pay, there's not much sense going to trial lessons where the monthly fee is more than that amount.


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## Douwe Geluk (Oct 4, 2018)

Well internet is internet, many people who ask you for the prizes can be other schools as well. 

i live by the idea that people should come for the quality of the lessons. Here in this country we can sometimes arrange an extra budget for people on wellfare.

Money should not be something we can not overcome.
I teach because it is something i love to do, besides that i have a job. 

I do not have.to make a living out of my classes.
When people really need to know the prize they will ask again, and then i considder it.

If people do not want to come because i do not give prozes immediately then they can go.

When people really look for the arts at my school then they will try it anyway...


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

Douwe Geluk said:


> Well internet is internet, many people who ask you for the prizes can be other schools as well.


I've never much worried about that. If they're going to set their prices to beat mine, I don't really think that's going to matter much. 



> i live by the idea that people should come for the quality of the lessons. Here in this country we can sometimes arrange an extra budget for people on wellfare.


I think most of us live by that precept. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they chose someplace primarily because it was inexpensive. I have, however, heard folks NOT choose someplace because they didn't have the money. Studies have shown that if people are conscious of cost, and cannot find the price, they don't usually go any further. So, not having the price available likely doesn't improve the chances of someone who can't afford it taking a trial lesson.



> Money should not be something we can not overcome.


Shouldn't be, but for the folks wanting lessons, it sometimes is. 


> I teach because it is something i love to do, besides that i have a job.
> 
> I do not have.to make a living out of my classes.


Many of us on here are in the same situation. I've never really cared whether I make any money off my teaching. I'm not sure what that has to do with whether a prospective student can find out the price over the phone.


> When people really need to know the prize they will ask again, and then i considder it.


That's reasonable.



> If people do not want to come because i do not give prozes immediately then they can go.
> 
> When people really look for the arts at my school then they will try it anyway...


I'm not sure that is aligned with how people who have a limited budget deal with things. Some folks find it embarrassing to ask what the price is, and find out they cannot afford it. The further into the process they get, the worse that feeling is. Some folks will avoid the trial lesson to avoid the possibility of that discomfort.

Please note I'm not saying there's anything wrong with not wanting to share the number. I'm just pointing out that it may not have the effect your post suggests. Not providing prices tends to make people more price-conscious. As long as you're aware of the effect, and your policy does what you need it to do, there's no reason to change it.


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## Douwe Geluk (Oct 4, 2018)

Yes

I see well i think there is something to say for all ways.

On my website i have added the numbers now, i will see if that makes a difference.

Yes i never think my way is the right one, always willing to learn and adapt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

Douwe Geluk said:


> Yes
> 
> I see well i think there is something to say for all ways.
> 
> ...


I'd be interested to hear if you notice any difference - one way or the other - after the change. This is one of those areas where we can get information from studies, but it's hard to tell how closely it applies to what we do.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 4, 2018)

It's really not just money, it's more the style of communication. I've had a flurry of interest and I briefly had a spot open for a new student (about 36 hours) for the first time in quite a while.

I try to be courteous to everyone who contacts me, but I don't feel that the general courteousness of those inquiring doesn't quite match the tone I'm setting. But I was only looking for one student, so it worked out.

Not a big deal really, I'm good.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> It's really not just money, it's more the style of communication. I've had a flurry of interest and I briefly had a spot open for a new student (about 36 hours) for the first time in quite a while.
> 
> I try to be courteous to everyone who contacts me, but I don't feel that the general courteousness of those inquiring doesn't quite match the tone I'm setting. But I was only looking for one student, so it worked out.
> 
> Not a big deal really, I'm good.


You make a good point. The attitude we perceive is more important than the actual question.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 5, 2018)

Context first:


I was just whining when I started this. Not really trying to solve anything. 

I have the students that I want and need its not about getting more for me, though I do try to have positive interactions with people looking for training and if I can't make space for them, suggest other programs. This week, I even made a call to another teacher on someone's behalf. 
My new pet peeve is that I've had a small handful of inquiries/exchanges this year that go something like this:

Inquirer - "Hello, my name is xxxxx and I'd like to join your school. I am yyyy and very dedicated. I will be your best student, train night and day and do anything you require of me."

Me - "Thanks for the note, why don't you give me a call and let's talk about it."

Sworn dedicated student - <silence>


Sometimes they'll even email back or worse text me with something like "So, can I join?"


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> Context first:
> 
> 
> I was just whining when I started this. Not really trying to solve anything.
> ...


Whining OP's are entirely permissible. Just don't expect us not to drag the thread in some direction we consider more useful....to us. 

And continued whining will get commiseration, mockery, or most likely both.

To your point in this post, that's oddly un-unique to MA. I remember working with an insurance organization on their sales recruitment process. They'd get people saying they would surely be their top salesperson, that they really liked the business model, and were super-excited about the whole business plan. And that'd be the last they ever heard of them. ::SMH::


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## ShortBridge (Oct 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Whining OP's are entirely permissible. Just don't expect us not to drag the thread in some direction we consider more useful....to us.



Of course



gpseymour said:


> And continued whining will get commiseration, mockery, or most likely both.



I expect and deserve nothing less!


If I put my moaning aside for a second. I have a really good group of students and this process is probably helping make that the way it is. Probably a tax on me with a result worth having. Did I just type something optimistic on the internet? I must be late for my morning whiskey.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 5, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> Context first:
> 
> 
> I was just whining when I started this. Not really trying to solve anything.
> ...


Wait...their name changed from xxxx to yyyy in a sentence? Thats your first warning sign.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 5, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Wait...their name changed from xxxx to yyyy in a sentence? Thats your first warning sign.



"yyyy" represented some broad range of qualifications like "23 years old ... in amazing shape ... brilliant ... experienced ... exceptional in lots of ways that should matter to you"


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 5, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> "yyyy" represented some broad range of qualifications like "23 years old ... in amazing shape ... brilliant ... experienced ... exceptional in lots of ways that should matter to you"


Ahh. And likely the least important qualities in what you're looking for


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## ShortBridge (Oct 5, 2018)

Eh, it's fine, I do care about stuff, but if you're willing to do anything "pick up the phone and call me" seems like it would be table stakes.

I think that particular quirk is a generational one.


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## JR 137 (Oct 5, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> Eh, it's fine, I do care about stuff, but if you're willing to do anything "pick up the phone and call me" seems like it would be table stakes.
> 
> I think that particular quirk is a generational one.


That’s that generation. My brother is 31. I don’t think he’s ever answered his cell phone without me texting him to answer the damn phone after I get his voicemail. He’ll gladly have a half hour “conversation” through texting. His friends are the same way. Colleagues of mine around his age are the same way too.

I’m not some old and set in my ways 42 year old who doesn’t want to embrace things. But if it’s more than 2-3 sentences, pick up the phone. I’m all for kids reading and all that  but get your reading in some other way.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 5, 2018)

Right and I'm not Chinese and this isn't the 1600s, but there is still a bit of tradition to what we do. I teach a small group and have a personal relationship with each of them. 

You've got to be willing to talk to me.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 5, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> Eh, it's fine, I do care about stuff, but if you're willing to do anything "pick up the phone and call me" seems like it would be table stakes.
> 
> I think that particular quirk is a generational one.


I'd agree with that. It infuriates me how often my friends are told "just call me", and no matter what it is they don't. Theyd meet the guy in person, theyd text or email, but somehow calling is different


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## ShortBridge (Oct 5, 2018)

I'm good with meeting in person too, but I'm not going to take someone seriously if they won't engage with me.

This gets to another issue, maybe I don't blame this one on age demographics, but just the times. I want dedicated students. It's a small group, everyone is counting on everyone else to show up and train. If they don't, we all miss out on the training opportunity. People work, people get sick, there are birthdays and anniversaries, that's all good. But, I don't want people paying their dues and then disappearing and showing back up at random, like it's a well-intentioned, but poorly-used gym membership. I used to manage gyms and I know that people who sign up and pay, but don't ever come are a winfall. No one is ever waiting for them to finish with a bench or machine, but they're helping us pay our rent and salaries! But, that's not what I'm doing. That conversation is meant to help them understand that.

So, I'm looking to be convinced that they're going to be a good reliable training partner. They MUST HAVE questions about us to other than "how much?" Call me or let's meet and get it all out in the open, I'm almost always open in that conversation about our (very modest) monthly dues as well...but that can't be your only question and it certainly isn't the only thing that I want to know about them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> Right and I'm not Chinese and this isn't the 1600s, but there is still a bit of tradition to what we do. I teach a small group and have a personal relationship with each of them.
> 
> You've got to be willing to talk to me.


I’d love to be In a position to be that picky, actually. Good for you.


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