# Long Pole



## yak sao (May 20, 2009)

Let's compare long poles......there's a straight line in there somewhere.....

In my lineage the form is very short, some 2 dozen mvmnts depending on how you count them. What about you guys?


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## mook jong man (May 20, 2009)

Just from looking at my Sifu's weapons book there are step by step photos of the whole form and there are 45 photos not including the starting position.
Every single raise and dip of the pole or step is a different photo so I estimate there is 45 moves.


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## geezer (May 21, 2009)

yak sao said:


> Let's compare long poles......there's a straight line in there somewhere.....
> 
> In my lineage the form is very short, some 2 dozen mvmnts depending on how you count them. What about you guys?



Mine is the same. Very short.  But if that _really_ bothers you, try repeating it four times, linking it together, alternating left and right hands forward, and changing direction each time.  That way you can make it come out to exactly 108 moves... which is a classical "round" number in Chinese culture and plenty long enough. Anyway, if you like long sets, there's always the Bart Cham Dao form. But that's over my head. Maybe some day....


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## Tensei85 (May 22, 2009)

The pole form I learned via Ip Ching lineage was also very short.
With 3 forward Tiu Guan and 3 Back Tiu Guan 2 Hyun Guan at 45 degree angles. Followed by 2 Tiu Guan at 45 degree angles (to map out each direction) and then a Lan Guan to finish.
Very basic but sweet to practice, however as stated before the Baat Jaam Dao was more complicated with 8 sections in my lineage.


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## KamonGuy2 (May 22, 2009)

Yep about 2 minutes is right. It is a very short form. 
Mainly because if you do it with an 8 and a half foot pole your arms would give out. It is meant to train powerful short snappy movements (6 and a half movements), and is not like the other forms which are almost like an encyclopedia 

Also, the pole form is seen by many schools as the less interesting form - the one that was added last to the wing chun system

I personally love it and believe it is the most applicable form in the entire wing chun system

I still haven't been able to crack walnuts on the surface of a pond though


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## yak sao (May 22, 2009)

geezer said:


> Mine is the same. Very short. But if that _really_ bothers you, try repeating it four times, linking it together, alternating left and right hands forward, and changing direction each time. That way you can make it come out to exactly 108 moves... which is a classical "round" number in Chinese culture and plenty long enough. Anyway, if you like long sets, there's always the Bart Cham Dao form. But that's over my head. Maybe some day....


 

That's what I do, I just always have in the back of my head did LT leave stuff out. I have seen other lineages with a longer form.
As for the knives...............sigh


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## geezer (May 23, 2009)

yak sao said:


> That's what I do, I just always have in the back of my head did LT leave stuff out. I have seen other lineages with a longer form.
> As for the knives...............sigh



You know, I had some doubts about the pole stuff too. But I've seen LT demonstrate pole techniques (a long time ago). His skill is... s_cary real._ I think there's a lot more to the pole than meets the eye. And, if people don't really know the techniques, they usually pad their forms with a lot of flashy BS. The fact that the WT form is so concise argues for it's authenticity. 

A flashy form would be more commercial. That's the real irony about LT. At times he comes across as a money loving jerk, but he also has a fierce commitment to maintaining the quality of his art. The unresolved conflict between these two aspects of his personality accounts for a lot of the strange, contradictory behaviors attributed to him. People are complicated. I just got sick of it and opted out. But I still respect the man's technique. Always will.


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## Tensei85 (May 23, 2009)

Hey guys, in your pole training: hows the progression? do you start from the form, gei bun gong, chi guan? Or how does the linear progession follow?

The way i learned was

Gei Bun Gong (basic exercises were pre-requisites to build cordination, timing, power and the centerline concept)
We started as follows:
Wrist strengthening exercises One handed:
Vertical (straight up/down keeping centerline and tip placement)
Horizontal (high reference, keep centerline-outside shoulder reference tip placement should be in center)
Inside curl using jut guan (generated proper wrist torque with energy)
Basic exercise seen in a lot Shaolin Guan (Gun) ji ben gong was shoulder line lower the tip to the ground via wrist energy keep should connected.

Two handed exercises:
Saat Guan
Hyun Guan
Lan Guan
Biu Guan
Tiu Guan
Hold pole in center with both hands rotate to lower reference keeping centerline. (build linking coordination)

Then from these pre-requisites we went into the Luk Dim Poon Guan form and applications verse Baat Jaam Dao and Long Pole

Then the Chi Guan exercises were practiced as the last phase to develop Pole sensitivity, linking power etc...


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## yak sao (May 23, 2009)

geezer said:


> You know, I had some doubts about the pole stuff too. But I've seen LT demonstrate pole techniques (a long time ago). His skill is... s_cary real._ I think there's a lot more to the pole than meets the eye. And, if people don't really know the techniques, they usually pad their forms with a lot of flashy BS. The fact that the WT form is so concise argues for it's authenticity.
> 
> A flashy form would be more commercial. That's the real irony about LT. At times he comes across as a money loving jerk, but he also has a fierce commitment to maintaining the quality of his art. The unresolved conflict between these two aspects of his personality accounts for a lot of the strange, contradictory behaviors attributed to him. People are complicated. I just got sick of it and opted out. But I still respect the man's technique. Always will.


 

I guess what I mean is not that I was looking for flash, in fact, the form's outward appearance is what I was expecting. It's just that I had anticipated it for so long I was like "that's it???!!!"
As for LT, I too have seen him do too much to doubt his ability. Even though I'm no longer in his organization, I will always hold his skill in high regard.


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## yak sao (May 23, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Hey guys, in your pole training: hows the progression? do you start from the form, gei bun gong, chi guan? Or how does the linear progession follow?
> 
> 
> I learned it much like you did. The only thing my si-fu did differently
> ...


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## Tensei85 (May 23, 2009)

Hey Yak Sau,

Yea, your absolutely right. Thanks for bringing it up we did the same thing from a Sai Ping Ma stance with a vertical punch (yat ji chong choi) across the floor. In fact I still practice it, it was a useful training device even if your not learning the Wing Chun Pole. 

We also practiced the Diu Tai Ma (Ding Ji Ma) with the pole from a retreating position. I've seen the diu tai ma in a lot of CMA'S just different variations but in some factors I believe Wing Chun's back stance is unique.


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## mook jong man (May 24, 2009)

yak sao said:


> Tensei85 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys, in your pole training: hows the progression? do you start from the form, gei bun gong, chi guan? Or how does the linear progession follow?
> ...


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## geezer (May 24, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Hey Yak Sau,
> 
> Yea, your absolutely right. Thanks for bringing it up we did the same thing from a Sai Ping Ma stance with a vertical punch (yat ji chong choi) across the floor. In fact I still practice it...



I like that excercise too. I also like the wrist excercises that Mook mentions. The problem is that between those and my Escrima training, I've overdone it and developed tendonitis in my left wrist. It's taking forever to get better. Also, being a bit stiff-jointed, the strength training aspects of the pole have not really helped my chi-sau. Last time my instructor came to town a couple of weeks back, he told me to lay off the pole stuff. Besides, as a hobbyist, and not a professional martial artist (I'm being brutally honest here), I don't spend enough time practicing what really matters--the basics. It seems like I'm always short of time or will-power. Anybody else feel that way?

Oh and BTW "Tensei" has a Japanese ring to it? Is that so? It's just that a lot of CMA people on this forum use Japonese sounding names. I always wondered about that. Now "Geezer" or _Gee-Sa_. there's a proper Chinese name, right?


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## Tensei85 (May 24, 2009)

Hey Geezer,

The name Tensei (tensai-japanese/english) or chinese pinyin: tiän cái
but the characters are the same: &#22825;&#25165;


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## Tensei85 (May 24, 2009)

I speak both Japanese, Mandarin and a decent amount of Cantonese as well.
So sometimes I interject various translations of words, hey it beats trying to translate characters into English (talk about difficult) I guess that's why they invented Pinyin : )


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## yak sao (May 24, 2009)

Now "Geezer" or _Gee-Sa_. there's a proper Chinese name, right?[/quote]


Speaking of names, years ago when we first began training in WT, we would get together between classes and train. Usually we went at it pretty hard (we did a lot of lat sao in the early days) but from time to time we would end up talking when we should have been training and someone coined the term "yak sao".


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## mook jong man (May 24, 2009)

geezer said:


> The problem is that between those and my Escrima training, I've overdone it and developed tendonitis in my left wrist.


 
Have you tried doing a lot of Huen Sau's on that wrist , in the past I've had my wrist's damaged by wrist locks from over zealous partners . 

After the injury I would start doing the Huen Sau movement many times through the day and usually the wrist would be ok in a couple of days . Don't know if it would work for tendonitis though.


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## Tensei85 (May 24, 2009)

Geezer,

I seen the suggestion for Hyun Sau training but have you also thought about trying various Qigong training sets? One that would be beneficial would be Zhan Zhuang (Canto- Jaam Jong), which is very simple as far as postures but takes a lot of discipline and foundation to train. We used this training set to couple our Wing Chun training and had good results as far as Nei Gong training and developing a strong foundational root.


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## geezer (May 24, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> I speak both Japanese, Mandarin and a decent amount of Cantonese as well.



Whoa... being a typical "linguistically challenged" yank, I am deeply impressed. I've spent a lot of effort to gain a limited command of Spanish and that's it. I know this is off-topic, but, how did you manage to learn _three difficult languages_ beyond English?


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## Tensei85 (May 24, 2009)

Geezer,
I'm coming from a mixed or messed up background lol however you want to look at it. So I have Asian and European heritage. So i grew up learning Mandarin, English since I was little. Then when I was around 12 I started learning Japanese and when I became a teenager I started studying Southern Lian Gong as well as Northern Lian Gong so given the Southern Fist via Wing Chun, Nan Siu Lam and Bak Mei I felt the need to pick up Cantonese to complement the training and communication difficulties that may occur. (Sifu was from Hong Kong) thats it in a nutshell.


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## CuongNhuka (May 25, 2009)

yak sao said:


> Speaking of names, years ago when we first began training in WT, we would get together between classes and train. Usually we went at it pretty hard (we did a lot of lat sao in the early days) but from time to time we would end up talking when we should have been training and someone coined the term "yak sao".


 
So, would insulting someone be Yak Dar?


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## geezer (May 25, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> So, would insulting someone be Yak Dar?



Nah. _Yak Da_ is simultaneously insulting them as you punch 'em in the mouth! BTW, my training partners and I are pretty talkative too (big surprise, right). So our motto for chi-sau is, if you won't rock 'n roll, then talk 'n roll... but no standing around! One way we shut each other up is to start putting on the pressure. Then you've gotta shut up or you can catch a palm to the jaw and really bite your tongue. Now excuse me, ...my tongue still hurts.


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## Domino (May 27, 2009)

lol ^^
Im unsure of the form, but recently had the opportunity to use pole, very difficult but something I plan to practice often. Luk dim boon kwun much easier than bart cham dao.


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## Tensei85 (May 28, 2009)

Domino said:


> lol ^^
> Im unsure of the form, but recently had the opportunity to use pole, very difficult but something I plan to practice often. Luk dim boon kwun much easier than bart cham dao.



I would have to agree with that however there are a lot of angles and concepts that are sometimes forsaken or not expressed properly. So there is a lot to the Luk Dim Poon Guan even though it appears simple but to perform it correctly is not always easy:mst:

You see a lot of these concepts expressed in Chi Guan (Kwan) as well.


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## Domino (Jun 2, 2009)

I do agree, more to the 'quality than quantity' of things.
Unsure if this is a good example but short and simple motions.


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 2, 2009)

Domino said:


> I do agree, more to the 'quality than quantity' of things.
> Unsure if this is a good example but short and simple motions.


 
Agreed. However, someone else mentioned a few ways to vary the Pole form. This is a great idea to do with any form, as it will give you a more indepth understanding of the material.


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## Domino (Jun 3, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> Agreed. However, someone else mentioned a few ways to vary the Pole form. This is a great idea to do with any form, as it will give you a more indepth understanding of the material.


Thanks,
I would like to see variation if you can find it please.


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 3, 2009)

geezer said:


> Mine is the same. Very short. But if that _really_ bothers you, try repeating it four times, linking it together, alternating left and right hands forward, and changing direction each time. That way you can make it come out to exactly 108 moves... which is a classical "round" number in Chinese culture and plenty long enough. Anyway, if you like long sets, there's always the Bart Cham Dao form. But that's over my head. Maybe some day....


 


Domino said:


> Thanks,
> I would like to see variation if you can find it please.


 
Good?


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## Domino (Jun 3, 2009)

Oh ok yep, thanks.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 4, 2009)

I agree,

I think you can vary it to tailor the To dai's needs however the core concepts and mechanics should not be changed. Atleast my take on it, it initiates such concepts as Chi Guan, Jung Sin, Jik Sin, Saat Guan etc...

Each of these are viable, but as far as Pole forms or Guan Faat I've seen multiple variations in fact I don't believe there's any two Sifu's that practice it identical.


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## mook jong man (Jun 4, 2009)

Well Lok Dim Boon is supposed to mean six and a half point pole.
Meaning there are six and a half movements in the pole form.

All the applications are based on these moves , and all the useless showy stuff was thrown out in keeping with Wing Chun's emphasis on efficiency.
So I would be pretty suspicious if I saw someone swinging it around like a quarterstaff.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 4, 2009)

6 in a half point principles:

Tai, Dim, Kit, Lan, Wan, Got & Lau

I was always told that Lau (Flow) represents the half point concept as it was to be half of the focus (training) of the Pole.


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## yak sao (Jun 13, 2009)

New training aid discovery.
I was out in the backyard this morning practicing with the long pole.
We have one of those plastic weighted stands that a patio table umbrella goes in sitting there on the patio. (my wife just recently bought a new one, and me being the dutiful husband that I am have't thrown the old one away yet)
Next to it leaning against the wall was one of my old wax wood staffs from my earlier kung fu days that my son had been messing around with. Lightbulb moment.
I stuck the staff down where the umbrella would normally go and now I have a long pole training aid.
I used it to practice striking and side to side in sort of a chi gwun fashion.

I'm very easily entertained.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 13, 2009)

Awesome!

Another training practice that works well is to hang Iron wrist training rings on either branches of a tree (if your outside) or hang from a banister of a ceiling (if inside) and practice the thrusting motions of Biu Guan and try and hit the center of the rings. Its best to have varying ring sizes so as to mix up the size of the targets. So start out with the largest ring & work your way to the smallest wrist ring.

I enjoy this training module.


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## bully (Jun 26, 2009)

For the UK people, Pagoda are doing a clearance on a few poles which have bends in them. 

http://www.pagodaimports.co.uk/p-45-authentic-85-wing-chun-long-pole.aspx

£39

Tempted but I think shipping across the channel might be expensive for a 8.5 foot pole.


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## graychuan (Jun 26, 2009)

Interchanging the pole with a spear and doing the same form offers a nice flavor...


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## Tensei85 (Jun 26, 2009)

Yea, I agree some Schools of Wing Chun utilize the 13 Spearing Principles originally meant for the Spear as opposed to the Pole. 

http://books.google.com/books?id=S7...Lb0asB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2


And based on Master Benny Meng's research, the original Wing Chun Pole based on Southern Shaolin lore was actually a Spear for warfare at the time of mid 1600's around 1655 give or take a few. And it incorporated the Center line concept which is as we know today. He goes on to say that Wing Chun originally taught the components of weapons 1st as opposed to as we see today the general. SNT (SLT), CK, BJ, etc...

I'll see if I can dig up the article, its worth a read at least.

As with anything I can't say I agree 100% but I try to be subjective and open minded about Wing Chun history. And I feel everyone has something to contribute.


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## BFL (Jun 26, 2009)

geezer said:


> I like that excercise too. I also like the wrist excercises that Mook mentions. The problem is that between those and my Escrima training, I've overdone it and developed tendonitis in my left wrist. It's taking forever to get better. Also, being a bit stiff-jointed, the strength training aspects of the pole have not really helped my chi-sau. Last time my instructor came to town a couple of weeks back, he told me to lay off the pole stuff. Besides, as a hobbyist, and not a professional martial artist (I'm being brutally honest here), I don't spend enough time practicing what really matters--the basics. It seems like I'm always short of time or will-power. Anybody else feel that way?
> 
> Oh and BTW "Tensei" has a Japanese ring to it? Is that so? It's just that a lot of CMA people on this forum use Japonese sounding names. I always wondered about that. Now "Geezer" or _Gee-Sa_. there's a proper Chinese name, right?


Geezer wrote:   "It seems like I'm always short of time or will-power. Anybody else feel that way?"
  Amen to that one sir.  Usually my past injuries come into play as well only making my will-power wain even further.  My Kung Fu has sufferred for it and I hate to admit but due to those issues and having no one to stick with, my Chi Sao is horrible.


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## graychuan (Jun 26, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Yea, I agree some Schools of Wing Chun utilize the 13 Spearing Principles originally meant for the Spear as opposed to the Pole.
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=S7...Lb0asB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
> 
> ...


 


Check this one out , Tensei...

Kali, Eskrima, Spear


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## Tensei85 (Jun 26, 2009)

graychuan said:


> Check this one out , Tensei...
> 
> Kali, Eskrima, Spear




Nice! I thoroughly enjoyed the vid, by the way enjoyed the music too! :ultracool

The only small recommendation I could make, is when using a Biu Guan or the spearing try a lower Say Ping Ma and just extend the shoulder out to allow the full reach of the spear. The Say Ping Ma will allow the base to generate your "Guan Jing" (But I'm not big on giving corrections, afterall were all learning) So take my advice if it helps, But everything looked great! I liked the kali demo as well, Very fluid.

Nice 2 person drills, very fluid and you were aware of your surroundings too. Never ran into the kid that was running back and forth lol.


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## graychuan (Jun 26, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Nice! I thoroughly enjoyed the vid, by the way enjoyed the music too! :ultracool
> 
> The only small recommendation I could make, is when using a Biu Guan or the spearing try a lower Say Ping Ma and just extend the shoulder out to allow the full reach of the spear. The Say Ping Ma will allow the base to generate your "Guan Jing" (But I'm not big on giving corrections, afterall were all learning) So take my advice if it helps, But everything looked great! I liked the kali demo as well, Very fluid.
> 
> Nice 2 person drills, very fluid and you were aware of your surroundings too. Never ran into the kid that was running back and forth lol.


 

Although I have Staff/Spear forms in my kempo , Ali has only taught me the Lok Kim Bok for conditioning and form practice only at this point. I use a 9 foot dowell from the closest hardware store. Im not too familiar with those terms but I think I hear ya.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 26, 2009)

graychuan said:


> Although I have Staff/Spear forms in my kempo , Ali has only taught me the Lok Kim Bok for conditioning and form practice only at this point. I use a 9 foot dowell from the closest hardware store. Im not too familiar with those terms but I think I hear ya.




 gotcha, that's cool though you'll definitely enjoy the luk dim poon guan training. Still one of my favorite training devices in Wing Chun.


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