# Dobok question



## ETinCYQX (Mar 1, 2011)

Excuse my ignorance, all, but I have a quick question regarding HapKiDo dobok's. We use a fair number of HapKiDo tech's in our TKD cirriculum (I think all of our hoshinsul are derived from HKD actually) and I always feel like I'm going to tear my dobok on collar grabs. How heavy are the ones you guys use? My TKD one is so thin you can tell what color shorts I have on underneath when I don't have the dobok top on, while my Fuji single weave Judogi is like wearing a snow suit. Are they more like a Judogi or closer to TKD doboks?

Also, while I'm here, some of the footage I've seen of HKD classes looks like TKD-style sparring with hogu's and all. Is this normal? What techniques do you guys use sparring? I know there's a lot of striking in HKD, like TKD, but do you guys use more grappling-type things too?

Again, thanks for bearing with me.


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## kiddk1 (Mar 3, 2011)

I use the Judo ones since we do alot of throws and grabs, they are durable, has not tore in 6 yrs.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 3, 2011)

That's kind of what I was thinking; my Fuji Gi's seem pretty durable. Cheap too.

Thanks


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> That's kind of what I was thinking; my Fuji Gi's seem pretty durable. Cheap too.
> 
> Thanks



I do not have a lot of experience with the diamond doboks used in hapkido, but the ones worn by the local hapkido guys here aren't that thick.  They seem to be equivalent to 10-12 oz karate uniforms.  I think even a cheap judo single weave top would be more durable if you do much throwing using the lapels or sleeves.


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## zDom (Mar 4, 2011)

We just use plain white (usually single-weave) judo uniforms.

We do manage to wear them out eventually, but they last a good four or five years.


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## puunui (Mar 5, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I do not have a lot of experience with the diamond doboks used in hapkido, but the ones worn by the local hapkido guys here aren't that thick.  They seem to be equivalent to 10-12 oz karate uniforms.  I think even a cheap judo single weave top would be more durable if you do much throwing using the lapels or sleeves.




You're right, those cross stitch uniforms are thin and doesn't hold up well to grabbing, not like a Judo uniform does.

The white uniform with black cross stitching is actually the Jidokwan dobok, not Hapkido. The cross stitching comes from the bottom of the judo gi top, and is an acknowledgment of the Jidokwan's early beginnings at the Chosun Yunmookwan, which was a Judo school. 

The black uniform with white cross stitching was a uniform used by some of the actors in Game of Death, the movie by Bruce Lee. They are shown normally in the scenes with Hapkido GM JI Han Jae, and ever since, that black uniform with white cross stitching has been associated with Hapkido and is even called Hapkido uniform in the martial arts supply company catalogs. But to my knowledge, they don't wear that dobok in Hapkido dojang in Korea.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 7, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Excuse my ignorance, all, but I have a quick question regarding HapKiDo dobok's. We use a fair number of HapKiDo tech's in our TKD cirriculum (I think all of our hoshinsul are derived from HKD actually) and I always feel like I'm going to tear my dobok on collar grabs. How heavy are the ones you guys use? My TKD one is so thin you can tell what color shorts I have on underneath when I don't have the dobok top on, while my Fuji single weave Judogi is like wearing a snow suit. Are they more like a Judogi or closer to TKD doboks?


My student HKD dobok was white with the black diamond patern and was about as thick as a medium weight TKD vee neck dobok. It is essentially just a plain cross over gi like you'd see in a karate school but with the black diamond pattern.

I now have a 'heavy' black with white diamond pattern HKD dobok, but it is not as heavy as a judogi.  It is like a heavy karate gi.



ETinCYQX said:


> Also, while I'm here, some of the footage I've seen of HKD classes looks like TKD-style sparring with hogu's and all. Is this normal? What techniques do you guys use sparring? I know there's a lot of striking in HKD, like TKD, but do you guys use more grappling-type things too?


Most hapkido schools, to my knowledge, do not use hogu. Also, tourament fighting is not an integral part of hapkido the way that it is with taekwondo. Certainly, hogu can be adopted for use (and is), but where I learned, we did not use hogu. 

As far as free sparring, we did light contact striking mixed with the techniques from the hoshinsul. Cups and a mouthpiece were all that were used. High belts would do full contact and wore gloves, instep pads, and headgear in addition.

There is no standard "HKD" sparring gear the way that there is in Taekwondo because there is no large organized sanctioning body that is requiring it.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Mar 8, 2011)

Moo Sool Sa makes a Judo Federation Sanctioned heavy top thats awesome or just step up and get the Mizuno Yawara.


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## puunui (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My student HKD dobok was white with the black diamond patern and was about as thick as a medium weight TKD vee neck dobok. It is essentially just a plain cross over gi like you'd see in a karate school but with the black diamond pattern. I now have a 'heavy' black with white diamond pattern HKD dobok, but it is not as heavy as a judogi.  It is like a heavy karate gi.




Have you or can you ask your instructor why he chose that as the school uniform? I've been to lots of Hapkido schools in Korea, but I don't think I ever saw that type of uniform used. Mostly it was judo uniforms, that KHF style uniform, or the Kuk Sool black uniforms. Some styles wore different colored uniforms, but I don't remember what the material was made out of. I remember one student bought the black with white cross stitch uniform for GM Ji for his birthday, but he never wore it.


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## puunui (Mar 8, 2011)

dortiz said:


> Moo Sool Sa makes a Judo Federation Sanctioned heavy top thats awesome or just step up and get the Mizuno Yawara.




I used to visit the Moo Sool Sa store in Seoul whenever I went to Korea, but the last time they moved locations and I couldn't find the new store. Moo Sool Sa is basically a Hapkido oriented store. There was a Kumdo store very close by and I think that one moved too. Very cool specialty stores.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> Have you or can you ask your instructor why he chose that as the school uniform? I've been to lots of Hapkido schools in Korea, but I don't think I ever saw that type of uniform used. Mostly it was judo uniforms, that KHF style uniform, or the Kuk Sool black uniforms. Some styles wore different colored uniforms, but I don't remember what the material was made out of. I remember one student bought the black with white cross stitch uniform for GM Ji for his birthday, but he never wore it.


So far as I know, it is a continuation of what he was doing with taekwondo doboks; geub grade students wore plain white vee necks and yudanja wore a black vee necks.  He has since switched back to yudanja wearing white vee necks with black collars.  

With HKD, he simply continued to have geub grade students in white and dan grades in black.  As of last night, he has all new student doboks which are plain black with the school logo on the back and no cross stitching.  I was told that the new doboks are thicker and the black color is easier to keep clean.  

Daniel


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## puunui (Mar 8, 2011)

Why the use of the cross stitched uniforms though? Did he have a reason for using that. Is he a member of the Jidokwan for example?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2011)

puunui said:


> Why the use of the cross stitched uniforms though? Did he have a reason for using that. Is he a member of the Jidokwan for example?


Nope. When I asked him about kwans back in 2004, he said that his master had been Kang duk won. 

I did not see him last night, but as I said, I'm 100% sure that he chose them because it seems to be generally accepted as the hapkido uniform. Most sites that have a specific HKD dobok are selling the cross stitched dobok, either white with black or black with white.  As of Monday, all HKD students are getting a black crossover with the school logo on the back and no cross stitching, and he is wearing the same dobok, but with a US and a Korean flag on the upper left.

Not sure if it is a regional thing, but a lot of the schools in my area have their instructional staff in black and students in white, the blackbelts and staff in black and geub/kyu grades in white, or staff, blackbelts and black belt club members in black and geub/kyu grades in white. Some schools put assistant instructors in red. Doesn't seem to be art specific either.

Daniel


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## puunui (Mar 9, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I did not see him last night, but as I said, I'm 100% sure that he chose them because it seems to be generally accepted as the hapkido uniform. Most sites that have a specific HKD dobok are selling the cross stitched dobok, either white with black or black with white




I know Sang Moo Sa does that, market the cross stitch uniform as a Hapkido uniform, and maybe some others out there. But Moo Sool Sa doesn't sell that one. they sell the KHF dobok and also the Sinmoo Hapkido dobok as well. I made my embroidered belts from moo sool sa a couple few times. They have weird sizing for belts though, it isn't the standard 1,2, 3, or 160, 170 cm.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks a lot, everybody. I appreciate your input and your help. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> My student HKD dobok was white with the black diamond patern and was about as thick as a medium weight TKD vee neck dobok. It is essentially just a plain cross over gi like you'd see in a karate school but with the black diamond pattern.
> 
> I now have a 'heavy' black with white diamond pattern HKD dobok, but it is not as heavy as a judogi.  It is like a heavy karate gi.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the insight, Mr. Sullivan. It's very much appreciated. 

I saw a few videos on YouTube of HapKiDo sparring and it looked quite cool, like TKD competition with sweeps and submissions. I was thinking, actually, that it'd be a great ruleset to try in a TKD class to incorporate our hoshinsul techniques somewhat. Our students like to spar and our head Master seems to have an interest in HKD, so why not?


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## goingd (Mar 16, 2011)

When I teach Hapkido techniques in my Taekwondo classes I rarely teach grabs against parts of the clothing. Rather, I try to limit grabs to parts of the body like the arm, shoulder and throat, so our Taekwondo dobock adequate.

When I was coming up in Hapkido our sparring was more similar to Judo sparring than to Taekwondo. There was no gear, light contact strikes were allowed, but the focus was on standing grappling, but smaller joint locks, done carefully, were allowed.


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## dortiz (Mar 22, 2011)

Shame,
now that everyone take BJJ lots of folks come to class and grab the heck out folks shirts and doboks as a first technique. Trapping a hand wrapped in your uniform and spinning can really make a big guy light up.
Teach everything so it always passed on and only edit in real application. Its fine to favor a couple of moves for your self defense but know them all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 22, 2011)

goingd said:


> When I teach Hapkido techniques in my Taekwondo classes I rarely teach grabs against parts of the clothing. Rather, I try to limit grabs to parts of the body like the arm, shoulder and throat,


Why?

Daniel


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 22, 2011)

dortiz said:


> Shame,
> now that everyone take BJJ lots of folks come to class and grab the heck out folks shirts and doboks as a first technique. Trapping a hand wrapped in your uniform and spinning can really make a big guy light up.
> Teach everything so it always passed on and only edit in real application. Its fine to favor a couple of moves for your self defense but know them all.



I have to admit that my preferred self defense is a really good kick to the midsection . SD has not historically been a major part of my interests although I have taken a vested interest in it lately.

I'm not teaching Judo or Jiu Jitsu grips, just defense from the lapel grab. It's just TKD hoshinsul that we lifted from HKD. I don't really want to tear my dobok or my student's doboks when they're almost all also Judoka as well and have the heavy Gi's anyway.


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## dancingalone (Mar 22, 2011)

dortiz said:


> Shame,
> now that everyone take BJJ lots of folks come to class and grab the heck out folks shirts and doboks as a first technique. Trapping a hand wrapped in your uniform and spinning can really make a big guy light up.
> Teach everything so it always passed on and only edit in real application. Its fine to favor a couple of moves for your self defense but know them all.



One of my students who is in law enforcement used a lapel-assisted arm bar I taught him to disarm a suspect with a knife.  The guy was wearing a leather jacket at the time that provided an excellent place to grip and he started the physical encounter by likewise grabbing the cop by his shirt!

The old classical techniques exist for a reason.  I agree they are important and should be practiced vigorously.


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## goingd (Mar 23, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Why?
> 
> Daniel


Well, on the side of the defender, (and this may sound silly) but I don't like to assume that my attacker is wearing a shirt. For that matter, I don't like to assume that my attacker has hair. They very well may not and I'd like the practice to not be limited to that. From the side of the attacker, I find that it is easier for most people to defend a grab to clothing rather than a grab to limbs and flesh. For that reason I like to teach to defend against a situation that I find to be a more difficult one. Keep in mind that I do not regularly teach Hapkido, nor are my students regular students of Hapkido. If I was teaching a complete Hapkido program I would certainly teach to defend against both situations.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2011)

goingd said:


> Well, on the side of the defender, (and this may sound silly) but I don't like to assume that my attacker is wearing a shirt.


Sorry. Not many packs of shirtless muggers out there. Given that you're teaching defenses that do not involve clothing grabs, I think you'd be safe in teaching at least a few clothing grab defenses. Most of us are wearing clothes during 99% of our interractions with other people, so defenses against clothing grabs would be quite helpful.



goingd said:


> For that matter, I don't like to assume that my attacker has hair.


They may or may not, but the big question is whether or not the defender has hair.



goingd said:


> They very well may not and I'd like the practice to not be limited to that. From the side of the attacker, I find that it is easier for most people to defend a grab to clothing rather than a grab to limbs and flesh. For that reason I like to teach to defend against a situation that I find to be a more difficult one.


It isn't a question of difficulty; the two are different sets of techniques. Being better at what you perceive as the more difficult of the two does not make you better at what you perceive to be the less difficult.



goingd said:


> Keep in mind that I do not regularly teach Hapkido, nor are my students regular students of Hapkido. If I was teaching a complete Hapkido program I would certainly teach to defend against both situations.


Fair enough.

Daniel


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sorry. Not many packs of shirtless muggers out there. Given that you're teaching defenses that do not involve clothing grabs, I think you'd be safe in teaching at least a few clothing grab defenses. Most of us are wearing clothes during 99% of our interractions with other people, so defenses against clothing grabs would be quite helpful.




The only time the shirtless thing comes up for us is at the beach, which can get a little rowdy if you are a surfer. But that might not be a factor where you live. But it is true most grabbing situations involve attackers with clothing. I think that the myriad of Hapkido self defense techniques, clothing or non-clothing, are there for a reason and it is best to practice them all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> The only time the shirtless thing comes up for us is at the beach, which can get a little rowdy if you are a surfer. But that might not be a factor where you live. But it is true most grabbing situations involve attackers with clothing. I think that the myriad of Hapkido self defense techniques, clothing or non-clothing, are there for a reason and it is best to practice them all.


QFT!

Daniel


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