# Kempo / Kenpo Self-defense/Sparring



## Q-Man (Aug 28, 2007)

Another thread that I read somewhere around here was talking about sparring in Kempo / Kenpo.  
*Disclaimer* It made me wonder about something that I saw as an inconsistency but could easily just be my ignorance.  

As I understand Kempo / Kenpo is an art that places a large amount of training time on specific self-defense techniques (ex: cross wrist grab).  But when sparring came into that class module or as was more often the case on a seperate class day we did not "spar" the self-defense techniques we were learning so much as we sparred more like a point karate style and sometimes kickboxing.  

Could you please explain to me why we did this instead of sparring something more like scenario sparring which I would think would have been more relavant to all the SD techniques we were doing (This was many years ago and for all I know it was just how they had kids and young teens spar).


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## marlon (Aug 28, 2007)

a lot of schools do this type of thing to practice for tournaments.  there is kempo sparring which has nothing to do with point sparring and uses much much more of the kempo material.  to do point sparring you need to give up at least 70% of your kempo.

respectfully,
marlon


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## Jdokan (Aug 28, 2007)

I agree... Point well made, both why is it done and then Marlon's response...Tournament training is a great way for students to apply certain techniques...I think the tournament kick/punch routines may be the easiest for most students to apply. Once a student reaches a certain level (not neccessarily rank) I also think it is a good idea to train as Marlon indicated...using your defensive techniques applied to sparring.....


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## Q-Man (Aug 28, 2007)

marlon said:


> a lot of schools do this type of thing to practice for tournaments. there is kempo sparring which has nothing to do with point sparring and uses much much more of the kempo material. to do point sparring you need to give up at least 70% of your kempo.
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


So would you say that if a person did not want to do any tournaments then there would be little to no value in doing that type of sparring and they could just stick with practicing the SD techs and doing scenario sparring?  Or is there another benefit for someone not intending on doing tournaments?


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## Blindside (Aug 29, 2007)

Q-Man said:


> So would you say that if a person did not want to do any tournaments then there would be little to no value in doing that type of sparring and they could just stick with practicing the SD techs and doing scenario sparring? Or is there another benefit for someone not intending on doing tournaments?


 
Yes, there is a huge benefit.  If you look at the AK curricullum freestyle techniques are a designated part of the system.  These techniques are teaching you the offense.  Competitive martial arts (of whatever variety) have you going against a resisting opponent who doesn't want to lose, that can only be a benefit.  You learn to read the opponent, when he is going to attack and when he is vulnerable, once you learn that, most "street" attack tends to look pretty dang slow.  If you can't hit a guy in sparring with a lead hand vertical punch, what makes you think your SD technique eyeshot is going to magically hit? 

Lamont


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## Q-Man (Aug 29, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Yes, there is a huge benefit. If you look at the AK curricullum freestyle techniques are a designated part of the system. These techniques are teaching you the offense. Competitive martial arts (of whatever variety) have you going against a resisting opponent who doesn't want to lose, that can only be a benefit. You learn to read the opponent, when he is going to attack and when he is vulnerable, once you learn that, most "street" attack tends to look pretty dang slow. If you can't hit a guy in sparring with a lead hand vertical punch, what makes you think your SD technique eyeshot is going to magically hit?
> 
> Lamont


 
The thing is im just not crazy about that type of sparring.  I train in mma and have competed a couple of times at the armature level and would prefer to stay with that type of sparring.  I was thinking about getting back into Kenpo 1-2x per week and was considering looking to go to a school that focused more on the SD techs and not so much on the point style of sparring.  Thanks.


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## marlon (Aug 29, 2007)

Lamont makes good points for point sparring.  But if you really do not want to just make it clear before you join.  However, i would consider the point sparring thing.  i believe that it has benefits but too much of it creates diminishing returns

respectfully,
marlon


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## Blindside (Aug 29, 2007)

Q-Man said:


> The thing is im just not crazy about that type of sparring. I train in mma and have competed a couple of times at the armature level and would prefer to stay with that type of sparring. I was thinking about getting back into Kenpo 1-2x per week and was considering looking to go to a school that focused more on the SD techs and not so much on the point style of sparring. Thanks.


 
Gotcha, you are fine, I thought you were talking about all sparring.  If you do MMA you'll be getting more than what just point will give you.  I will say that point sparring emphasizes the first movement, and really makes you work the non-telegraphic part of initial movement, but you should be doing that in MMA even if many do not.

Lamont


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## DavidCC (Aug 29, 2007)

It is possible to ramp up the intensity of the attacks, and to introduce some randmoness in attacks, and still be within the parameters of the techniques.  It seems to me the difference between sparring and defending yourself is large.  There are some skills that crossover but not as many as many people think... put on the protective gear and get your partner to try to mug you, not spar you.


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## Blindside (Aug 29, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> It is possible to ramp up the intensity of the attacks, and to introduce some randmoness in attacks, and still be within the parameters of the techniques. It seems to me the difference between sparring and defending yourself is large. There are some skills that crossover but not as many as many people think... put on the protective gear and get your partner to try to mug you, not spar you.


 
Why is someone trying to punch you different if it is sparring or self-defense?


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## marlon (Aug 29, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Why is someone trying to punch you different if it is sparring or self-defense?


 

sparring is a sport attitude self defense is defending someone atacking with a clear intention to hurt you badly.  it makes a big difference

respectfully,
marlon


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## Blindside (Aug 29, 2007)

So if my training partner is trying to ko me or at least give me a black eye that we can both laugh about, how does this change my response?  I know my training partners, I know they like giving noogies as much as I do.  I'm not in fear of my life, but the adrenaline should be there.

To flip the phrase; why is this punch, not a punch?  

Lamont


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## marlon (Aug 29, 2007)

your trainign partner is trying to knock you out or give you a black eye...your training partner will stop if things go too far, if you are knock out nothing else will happen to you ,your training partner is concerned about how much damage s/he will do to you.  think of your groin, back neck, eyes that your training partner will be careful withAll of this changes how an attack is launched and followed, it changes body positioning it is not just an attitude or adreneline thing.  when something does not work no one simply smiles and laughs about it your response to someone trying to make you tap out can biomechanically `work`where it would mean little if someone was trying to tear your tendons, rip your ligamnets and break your bones in many places...the speed and intensity and positional aligemnt of such attacks are different...the punch is the last thing to worry about, because it is always just a punch

respectfully,
marlon


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## marlon (Aug 29, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Why is someone trying to punch you different if it is sparring or self-defense?


 

because of what comes next

marlon


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2007)

Q-Man said:


> Another thread that I read somewhere around here was talking about sparring in Kempo / Kenpo.
> *Disclaimer* It made me wonder about something that I saw as an inconsistency but could easily just be my ignorance.
> 
> As I understand Kempo / Kenpo is an art that places a large amount of training time on specific self-defense techniques (ex: cross wrist grab). But when sparring came into that class module or as was more often the case on a seperate class day we did not "spar" the self-defense techniques we were learning so much as we sparred more like a point karate style and sometimes kickboxing.
> ...


 
Even when performing techniques in a real situation, its very possible that you will only pull off a part of the actual tech.  The same can be applied for sparring.  I can think of a few techs., namely Attacking Mace and Deflecting Hammer, where parts can be applied.

As for the type of sparring, I'd say its going to vary from school to school.  Perhaps you can mention this to your instructor.

Mike


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## Blindside (Aug 29, 2007)

marlon said:


> your trainign partner is trying to knock you out or give you a black eye...your training partner will stop if things go too far, if you are knock out nothing else will happen to you ,your training partner is concerned about how much damage s/he will do to you. think of your groin, back neck, eyes that your training partner will be careful withAll of this changes how an attack is launched and followed, it changes body positioning it is not just an attitude or adreneline thing. when something does not work no one simply smiles and laughs about it your response to someone trying to make you tap out can biomechanically `work`where it would mean little if someone was trying to tear your tendons, rip your ligamnets and break your bones in many places...the speed and intensity and positional aligemnt of such attacks are different...the punch is the last thing to worry about, because it is always just a punch
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
So you feel that "self-defense" training, specifically the various kenpo techniques, takes into account these differences?  That the "speed and intensity and positional alignment" of your SD attacks reflects reality better than a full-contact sparring session?  I curious where you get your "attackers" and how intense your average SD class is.  What kind of padding do you use, what kind of padding does the defender use?

Lamont


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## marlon (Aug 29, 2007)

Blindside said:


> So you feel that "self-defense" training, specifically the various kenpo techniques, takes into account these differences? That the "speed and intensity and positional alignment" of your SD attacks reflects reality better than a full-contact sparring session? I curious where you get your "attackers" and how intense your average SD class is. What kind of padding do you use, what kind of padding does the defender use?
> 
> Lamont


 

Lamont,
i believe i have stated that there is benefit in point sparring training and full contact sparring training.  the comment was made that there seems to be a lagre difference between self defense and sparring.  i agree with this, and that is all.  i enjoy my training and you seem to enjoy yours.  this is good
be well

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Aug 29, 2007)

Blindside said:


> So you feel that "self-defense" training, specifically the various kenpo techniques, takes into account these differences? That the "speed and intensity and positional alignment" of your SD attacks reflects reality better than a full-contact sparring session? I curious where you get your "attackers" and how intense your average SD class is. What kind of padding do you use, what kind of padding does the defender use?
> 
> Lamont


 
Lamont why don't you ask Doc his opinion which i am sure you will respect more than mine.  I do not want to argue back and forth on this subject. peace

respectfully,
marlon


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## kidswarrior (Aug 30, 2007)

marlon said:


> your trainign partner is trying to knock you out or give you a black eye...your training partner will stop if things go too far, if you are knock out nothing else will happen to you ,your training partner is concerned about how much damage s/he will do to you.  *think of your groin, back neck, eyes that your training partner will be careful withAll of this changes how an attack is launched and followed, it changes body positioning it is not just an attitude or adreneline thing.  *


This has always been my problem with sparring--we train in street or combat scenarios, then suddenly convert to sport rules and equipment and have to unlearn all that we've just learned. This is why I teach San Soo practice instead of sparring. Students (and I) use what we would use on the street, but must of course hold the power, which could damage internal organs, muscles, or vital points, and the defender must stop short of actually attacking things that would maim (e.g., eyes, throat). Yet we are practicing what we've learned. 


> it would mean little if someone was trying to tear your tendons, rip your ligamnets and break your bones in many places...*the speed and intensity and positional aligemnt of such attacks are different*...the punch is the last thing to worry about, because it is always just a punch


 Again, in San Soo practice (which I've integrated into Kempo study, so don't want anyone to feel I'm getting us OT here) the actual 'attack' is not usually going to come as a simple right-hand high swing one step. May be a grab, maybe from behind, maybe multiple attackers, maybe an all out assault of multiple quick, hard strikes. Once the defender responds with the first of his defense, we ask the 'attacker' to let it play out as it would in reality: the defender gets three shots to put away the attacker.

And yes, in case someone is wondering, I did a lot of sparring and cross training before coming to this solution. This does not mean I'm advocating my way for everyone, just that I can't accept some others' call for sparring as all encompassing mandate for me or my students.


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## DavidCC (Aug 31, 2007)

I guess it gets down to how the fight starts, how you are attacked, and what is in the attacker's mind.

In my experience two people who are sparring are probing each other for openings, carefully jabbing and retreating, engaging and disengaging, boxing, maneuvering and generally are as much or more concerned with not getting hit back than they are with successfully attacking you.

In my experience someone trying to mug you fully expects that their initial surprise attack will land and that they will continue to pound on you until you fall down.  They are not generally concerned with ranges, angels, or your defense etc. They want to take your head off.

So we each just need to consider which situation we are most likely to need to be ready for, and train appropriately.  For our school, we train for the second situation.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 31, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> In my experience someone trying to mug you fully expects that their initial surprise attack will land and that they will continue to pound on you until you fall down. They are not generally concerned with ranges, angels, or your defense etc. They want to take your head off.
> 
> *So we each just need to consider which situation we are most likely to need to be ready for, and train appropriately*. *For our school, we train for the second situation.*


Agreed. :asian:


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## Doc (Oct 3, 2007)

Q-Man said:


> Another thread that I read somewhere around here was talking about sparring in Kempo / Kenpo.
> *Disclaimer* It made me wonder about something that I saw as an inconsistency but could easily just be my ignorance.
> 
> As I understand Kempo / Kenpo is an art that places a large amount of training time on specific self-defense techniques (ex: cross wrist grab).  But when sparring came into that class module or as was more often the case on a seperate class day we did not "spar" the self-defense techniques we were learning so much as we sparred more like a point karate style and sometimes kickboxing.
> ...



The element you're looking for is not included in the commercial system. There is a componant that addressed this and formed a bridge between your traditional self defense techniques and anticpated altercations thst result in  "street sparring" self defense scenarios. Mr. Parker did however include what he termed "Offensive Formulas" as a suggestion in a formulized method of teaching tournament point sparring. These were included in the earlier commercial Big Red Operations Manual, but few actually taught them because of the somewhat complexity of the material.


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## DavidCC (Oct 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> There is a componant that addressed this and formed a bridge between your traditional self defense techniques and anticpated altercations thst result in "street sparring" self defense scenarios.


 
I'd love to learn more about this.


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## Doc (Oct 4, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> I'd love to learn more about this.



You already seen a bit of it Dave.


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## JamesB (Oct 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> You already seen a bit of it Dave.


 
tell me! tell me!


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## Doc (Oct 4, 2007)

JamesB said:


> tell me! tell me!



Let's just say that the base AOD Drill is the beginning of the process.


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## DavidCC (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes, I thought that was a little nugget of it.  I am teaching tonight, and I had already planned to do the AOD with them


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## Doc (Oct 4, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> Yes, I thought that was a little nugget of it.  I am teaching tonight, and I had already planned to do the AOD with them


The next time you come out, I'll demo some of the places this can take you, and how this training methodology (dances) bridges the gap between forms, sets, and traditional self defense techniques, and takes them to another level.


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## JamesB (Oct 6, 2007)

Doc said:


> Let's just say that the base AOD Drill is the beginning of the process.


 
I *love* AOD drill 

Cannot begin to imagine where it goes from there, but I'm sure I'm going to like it all the same.


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2007)

JamesB said:


> I *love* AOD drill
> 
> Cannot begin to imagine where it goes from there, but I'm sure I'm going to like it all the same.


Yes you will, guaranteed. Now (just to mess with you), imagaine that base drill being done with an inward elbow to the head instead of a punch.

These AOD's (called dances in the old days by Lefiti and Parker), are as engaging as traditional self defense techniques, and compliment them with the "bridge" is inserted, rasing the level of execution of everything. It is the primary componant of traditional "Directed Sparring."


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## DavidCC (Oct 8, 2007)

Doc said:


> The next time you come out, I'll demo some of the places this can take you, and how this training methodology (dances) bridges the gap between forms, sets, and traditional self defense techniques, and takes them to another level.


 
OK, I will definitely take you up on that


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## SilatFan (Oct 23, 2007)

Doc said:


> Let's just say that the base AOD Drill is the beginning of the process.


 
Doc,

Could you please talk some more about the A.O.D. drills and how and why you use them?  How many are there?  What do they lead to (I think in an earlier post you wrote that they were 'just the beginning')?  

Have you had the opportunity to see Bob Orlando's Reflex Action DVDs or the late Terry Gibson's six volume set on Silat?  They both have drills that look identical/very similar to the *limited* number of A.O.D. drills that I've seen.  If you have seen them are their concepts similar to those that the A.O.D. drills are meant to relay?  If not or you have not seen those sources could you talk at length as to what concepts they do teach.  It always interests me to see the similarities that Kenpo and the Chin/Indo arts share.

Thanks


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## Doc (Oct 29, 2007)

SilatFan said:


> Doc,
> 
> Could you please talk some more about the A.O.D. drills and how and why you use them?  How many are there?  What do they lead to (I think in an earlier post you wrote that they were 'just the beginning')?
> 
> ...


A.O.D. stands for Anticipated Offensive Drills. When moved from the drill to the application stage they become A.O. techniques. 

Taught and utilized properly, they form a bridge of knowledge and applications between traditional forms, and sets to the self defense technique applications. 

When the lessons that are learned are transferred to traditional self defense techniques, they raise the level of effectiveness and execution to an advanced degree.

One of the reasons in motion based kenpo most teach a move first philosophy is because the material does not have functional knowledge in its curriculum for anything else. 

Unfortunately the move first edict, while acceptable on one level when someone punches or kicks, omits all the knowledge mechanisms necessary when that opportunity is absent. Thus, the reason why there are no grappling or hands on understandings inherent in the commercial system. 

A.O.T.'s are practiced as A.O.D.s and are mechanism learned for the expressed purposes of defending against, by word or actions, announced attacks. They are designed to teach effective mechanisms and timings in all aspects of the defense sciences, offensively and defensively. They are specifically created to bring swift conclusions to an anticipated assault, without resorting to the tradition self defense technique, which are designed for surprise assaults.

There are more A.O.s than there are Traditional Techniques. I do not look at videos.

Offensive and defensive BAM's (Body Alignment Mechanisms), PAM's (Platform Alignment Mechanisms), misalignment, muscle re-assignment, nerve cavity presentation, PMD (Physical Mental Disassociation), etc. and a host of things that without studying the art would be difficult to comprehend the applications of, and "why" we don't do or watch instructional video.


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## SilatFan (Nov 1, 2007)

Taught and utilized properly, they form a bridge of knowledge and applications between traditional forms, and sets to the self defense technique applications. 

When the lessons that are learned are transferred to traditional self defense techniques, they raise the level of effectiveness and execution to an advanced degree.

- Can you explain what it is the A.O.D.s do to improve a students physical and/or mental execution of the Self-Defense techniques?  

- Are the A.O.D.s something taught at the intermediate to advanced stages of a students training or do you do this in the beginning also?  Is learning the Self-Defense techniques necessary as a pre-requisite before beginning the A.O.D.s?





There are more A.O.s than there are Traditional Techniques.

-Do you mean that there are more A.O.D.s or A.O.T.s than there are Traditional Techniques (or something else)?



Offensive and defensive BAM's (Body Alignment Mechanisms), PAM's (Platform Alignment Mechanisms), misalignment, muscle re-assignment, nerve cavity presentation, PMD (Physical Mental Disassociation), etc. and a host of things that without studying the art would be difficult to comprehend the applications of, and "why" we don't do or watch instructional video.

-Well Im sure youve been around the block enough times that you probably wouldnt see much of anything new to you but you might be shortening yourself by not watching some instructional videos.  Like I said the few A.O.D.s I saw seemed physically really similar to exercises Ive seen some Silat and Kuntao instructors teach and principals covered seemed similar enough as well that Id think they would compliment one another tremendously.  I also I think its a loss for a lot of people who could learn a ton from material that you could make on this subject.  Maybe one day youll revisit your position on the issue.


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## Doc (Nov 13, 2007)

SilatFan said:


> Taught and utilized properly, they form a bridge of knowledge and applications between traditional forms, and sets to the self defense technique applications. When the lessons that are learned are transferred to traditional self defense techniques, they raise the level of effectiveness and execution to an advanced degree.
> 
> Can you explain what it is the A.O.D.s do to improve a students physical and/or mental execution of the Self-Defense techniques?



They teach execution over and above the basics by building on the foundation. Speed and signification of execution move to an advanced level.


> Are the A.O.D.s something taught at the intermediate to advanced stages of a students training or do you do this in the beginning also?  Is learning the Self-Defense techniques necessary as a pre-requisite before beginning the A.O.D.s?


They are taught in tandem with the appropriate level matching the students skill level.


> There are more A.O.s than there are Traditional Techniques.
> 
> Do you mean that there are more A.O.D.s or A.O.T.s than there are Traditional Techniques (or something else)?


There are more A.O.s than there are Traditional Techniques.


> Offensive and defensive BAM's (Body Alignment Mechanisms), PAM's (Platform Alignment Mechanisms), misalignment, muscle re-assignment, nerve cavity presentation, PMD (Physical Mental Disassociation), etc. and a host of things that without studying the art would be difficult to comprehend the applications of, and "why" we don't do or watch instructional video.
> 
> Well Im sure youve been around the block enough times that you probably wouldnt see much of anything new to you but you might be shortening yourself by not watching some instructional videos.


Believe it or not, there isn't anything new to see on any video. At a certain level the options become more finite. Less is more in true advanced arts.


> Like I said the few A.O.D.s I saw seemed physically really similar to exercises Ive seen some Silat and Kuntao instructors teach and principals covered seemed similar enough as well that Id think they would compliment one another tremendously.


Maybe, but looking at video only taints the process and doesn't really add anything.


> I also I think its a loss for a lot of people who could learn a ton from material that you could make on this subject.  Maybe one day youll revisit your position on the issue.


Maybe, but looking at the video and seeing what I'm teaching is night and day. Not even close and just not visible in the medium.

Back in the sixties Parker's attempted to improve the officiating at the IKC with "Instant Replay." That's right Ed Parker had instant replay before anyone in any sport. He tried it one year and dumped it immediately. Rarely could a dispute be resolved because you really couldn't see what actually happened. Mr. Parker and I were looking at a video of a well known "Mak Gar" practitioner. He asked me, "What do you think? I said, "I'm not really sure but it really looks kinda like it's just really bad kenpo." Mr. Parker smiled and said, "Exactly!" and turned the dam thing off.

When I find a way that it can truly be beneficial to the student, then and only then will I give it a look. Right now I have students who use video as "notes" to their physical lessons. I can't see that changing significantly.


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## kidswarrior (Nov 13, 2007)

Doc said:


> Believe it or not, there isn't anything new to see on any video. At a certain level the options become more finite. Less is more in true advanced arts.


Now this is interesting. I hope I live long enough to learn/practice/teach enough to get to this point. By the way, I have experienced a parallel in my career field. At a certain point, there were no more classes to take/degrees to get/books to write. All the learning that was to come after that tipping point would be from experience (just doing it), so the parallels help me understand what Doc is saying.


> Back in the sixties Parker's attempted to improve the officiating at the IKC with "Instant Replay." That's right Ed Parker had instant replay before anyone in any sport. He tried it one year and dumped it immediately. Rarely could a dispute be resolved because you really couldn't see what actually happened. Mr. Parker and I were looking at a video of a well known "Mak Gar" practitioner. He asked me, "What do you think? I said, "I'm not really sure but it really looks kinda like it's just really bad kenpo." Mr. Parker smiled and said, "Exactly!" and turned the dam thing off.


Wow. Living history. Gotta love it.


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## Doc (Nov 13, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Now this is interesting. I hope I live long enough to learn/practice/teach enough to get to this point. By the way, I have experienced a parallel in my career field. At a certain point, there were no more classes to take/degrees to get/books to write. All the learning that was to come after that tipping point would be from experience (just doing it), so the parallels help me understand what Doc is saying.
> Wow. Living history. Gotta love it.


Naw, just memories.


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## SilatFan (Nov 15, 2007)

Doc said:


> There are more A.O.s than there are Traditional Techniques.


 
Forgive me.  This must be because english is my second language.  Are you saying that there are more Anticipated Offenses than there are "traditional techniques"?


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## LawDog (Nov 15, 2007)

There are three main ways of fighting,
1) Defense,
2) Offense,
3) Counter,
Optional:
4) To cut and run.
All of these are broken down into,
1) Single opponent - injured or uninjured,
2) Multi opponent - injured or uninjured.

A few golden rules one should consider,
1)To anticipate will get you "set up" by your opponent(s) if he/they use a fake/throw away technique on you.
2) During a confrontation "lack of thought" and "lack of emotion" with give you clarity during a confrontation.
a) If you think to much you will start to develope tunnel vison, much like when reading a book. If your opponent makes a quick move you may not see it. This is known as being caught "flat footed".
b) If you get emotional you will by pass your training and, let fear take over, get mad and begin strike away or even begin to second guess yourself.
:ultracool


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## Doc (Nov 15, 2007)

SilatFan said:


> Forgive me.  This must be because english is my second language.  Are you saying that there are more Anticipated Offenses than there are "traditional techniques"?



Yes.


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## dragonswordkata (Nov 24, 2007)

[... put on the protective gear and get your partner to try to mug you, not spar you.[/quote]
 Very good point. Sucient and to the heart of the matter.


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