# Anatomy and KOs



## Brownielox (Jun 10, 2017)

As far as I understand (kindly correct me if I'm wrong), there are 2 ways to end/win an MMA fight: knockout or submission.

How does a knockout usually happen? The most common one I've heard of is a fighter punches or kicks someone, and they go down and remain unresponsive. How is that possible? I'm studying human physiology right now, and this really interests me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2017)

It's a brain injury. The brain bounces inside the skull, from the impact of the strike. Essentially, the brain isn't working properly for a period of time.


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## CB Jones (Jun 10, 2017)

Doesn't a good strike to the chin or jaw cause flash KOs due to the nerves in and or around the jaw?  Or is that wrong and it's solely just the quick turning of the head that does it.

Also you have liver shots.....not sure exactly what happens physiologically though.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2017)

Well there is chokes. And outright shock as well.

(We had a guy go unconscious from a body shot. Took him maybe 15 seconds to go out)

You can also nail nerves that will shut the brain down.

But involuntary head movement is a big factor and becomes a bit of a conversation when it comes to how a guy is knocked out. And how to prevent it.


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## Brownielox (Jun 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's a brain injury. The brain bounces inside the skull, from the impact of the strike. Essentially, the brain isn't working properly for a period of time.





drop bear said:


> Well there is chokes. And outright shock as well.
> 
> (We had a guy go unconscious from a body shot. Took him maybe 15 seconds to go out)
> 
> ...



This is all so cool to learn about!! So the brain just rattles around from being hit too hard?

My *curse word for butt* of an ex once let me try and knock him out using a punch and then a kick to the chin -- with gloves on of course -- but it didn't happen? Either I was too weak or didn't hit him in the right spot. It was like an upper-cut sort of punch

In other news: S/O to y'all for _politely _answering the question. The other forum I joined doesn't seem to be as welcoming. I guess you guys really do live up to the name "friendly MMA forum"


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## Danny T (Jun 10, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> As far as I understand (kindly correct me if I'm wrong), there are 2 ways to end/win an MMA fight: knockout or submission.


Can also go for the full rounds whether it be 3 or 5. That will end the fight and the win will be from from the fighter having won the highest total point accumulation per round.

Fighter can be put to sleep through a choke. 
Fighter can be physically damaged and the fight stopped by the referee stoppage.
Fighter corner can request the fight be stopped by throwing in the towel.
Fight can be ended by referee stoppage due to disqualification.


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## CB Jones (Jun 10, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> This is all so cool to learn about!! My *curse word for butt* of an ex once let me try and knock him out using a punch and then a kick to the chin -- with gloves on of course -- but it didn't happen? Either I was too weak or didn't hit him in the right spot. It was like an upper-cut sort of punch
> 
> In other news: S/O to y'all for _politely _answering the question. The other forum I joined doesn't seem to be as welcoming. I guess you guys really do live up to the name "friendly MMA forum"



Next hit him with a straight right or a hook on the chin causing his head to swivel around.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> This is all so cool to learn about!! My *curse word for butt* of an ex once let me try and knock him out using a punch and then a kick to the chin -- with gloves on of course -- but it didn't happen? Either I was too weak or didn't hit him in the right spot. It was like an upper-cut sort of punch
> 
> In other news: S/O to y'all for _politely _answering the question. The other forum I joined doesn't seem to be as welcoming. I guess you guys really do live up to the name "friendly MMA forum"



We are definitely the pips.

So if you look at trying to ko dudes. Simple things like their head position can effect the outcome. If they brace their neck and meet the punch where their head is strong.

Their head won't move and you won't get that brain shake. 

Now if they are fighting back and you can catch them on a bit of an angle moving towards you and not so ready to take a shot. You get a lot more movement.


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## CB Jones (Jun 10, 2017)

Explanation of the liver shot

Fight Doctor - The Liver Kick | FIGHTLAND


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## Brownielox (Jun 10, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Next hit him with a straight right or a hook on the chin causing his head to swivel around.



I'm not planning on their being a next time...for both our sakes 



drop bear said:


> We are definitely the pips.
> 
> So if you look at trying to ko dudes. Simple things like their head position can effect the outcome. If they brace their neck and meet the punch where their head is strong.
> 
> ...



Good to know...if I ever have to use it. I'm not looking to intentionally hurt people though haha. I've only ever seriously hurt someone a few times, and that was during grappling and all totally accidental.


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## Brownielox (Jun 10, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Explanation of the liver shot
> 
> Fight Doctor - The Liver Kick | FIGHTLAND



I think that was in Sherlock Holmes!!


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 10, 2017)

You can end


Brownielox said:


> As far as I understand (kindly correct me if I'm wrong), there are 2 ways to end/win an MMA fight: knockout or submission.
> 
> How does a knockout usually happen? The most common one I've heard of is a fighter punches or kicks someone, and they go down and remain unresponsive. How is that possible? I'm studying human physiology right now, and this really interests me.


You can end a fight through body blows as well.


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## DanT (Jun 10, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Doesn't a good strike to the chin or jaw cause flash KOs due to the nerves in and or around the jaw?  Or is that wrong and it's solely just the quick turning of the head that does it.
> 
> Also you have liver shots.....not sure exactly what happens physiologically though.


No it's not the nerves around the jaw, it's the head quickly rotating causing a concussion that knocks people out.


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## Brownielox (Jun 10, 2017)

DanT said:


> No it's not the nerves around the jaw, it's the head quickly rotating causing a concussion that knocks people out.



So if that's the case, are "shock" KOs treated as serious injuries like concussions are?


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## Headhunter (Jun 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Well there is chokes. And outright shock as well.
> 
> (We had a guy go unconscious from a body shot. Took him maybe 15 seconds to go out)
> 
> ...


I've had something similair when I injured my fingers on Thursday my body kind of went into slight shock and damm near passed out from it. I've had that trouble all my life


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## drop bear (Jun 11, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> So if that's the case, are "shock" KOs treated as serious injuries like concussions are?



Not technicality. Because a concussion is a bit different to a knock out.

So a person gets knocked out. You then check to see if they are concussed.


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> So the brain just rattles around from being hit too hard?



It doesn't have to be a hard hit. There is fluid around the brain that protects it to a certain extent but basically any blow/knock to the head will cause the brain to connect with the hard skull. Imagine knocking your hand against a door as you leave a room, it may be just a glancing blow and leave no mark, a bit harder and you have the beginnings of a bruise, a good wallop will break blood vessels and leave a very noticeable bruise, that's what happens to your brain when it hits the skull.
The problem is compounded in martial sports where weight cutting happens, it most definitely happen in horse racing with jockeys constantly weight cutting. The fluid around the brain is diminished with the weight cut and dehydration so even that protection has gone. Even with the crash helmets jockeys wear doesn't stop the brain hitting the skull in a fall, likewise the head guards worn in martial arts when being punched. Unless you can actually cushion the brain itself there's little you can do to stop concussion or brain 'bruising'. Helmets worn for motorcycling, cycling etc should be worn though because they prevent other types of brain injury.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> This is all so cool to learn about!! So the brain just rattles around from being hit too hard?
> 
> My *curse word for butt* of an ex once let me try and knock him out using a punch and then a kick to the chin -- with gloves on of course -- but it didn't happen? Either I was too weak or didn't hit him in the right spot. It was like an upper-cut sort of punch


As DB and CB pointed out, there are some nerve points that can cause a KO .I'm not familiar with the mechanics and physiology on those, so I'm not sure how easy they are to get to. I do think they are a major portion of why some people are KO'd easily and others aren't. I don't think an uppercut activates any of those on most people, though.



> In other news: S/O to y'all for _politely _answering the question. The other forum I joined doesn't seem to be as welcoming. I guess you guys really do live up to the name "friendly MMA forum"


We try. Some of us get on each other's nerves, but we mostly get along really well. Even most of us who annoy each other get along between those moments.


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## CB Jones (Jun 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Not technicality. Because a concussion is a bit different to a knock out.
> 
> So a person gets knocked out. You then check to see if they are concussed.



All knockouts from blows to the head cause concussions.  They are checked afterwards to determine what grade of concussion they received.


Basically you are fighting until you cause enough of a concussion for the refs to stop the fight and award a KO.


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## DanT (Jun 11, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> So if that's the case, are "shock" KOs treated as serious injuries like concussions are?


Yes, depending on the severity of the KO, because they are the same thing. Anyone you see getting KOed, got concussed.


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## DanT (Jun 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Not technicality. Because a concussion is a bit different to a knock out.
> 
> So a person gets knocked out. You then check to see if they are concussed.


This is incorrect. All KOs from a hit to the head resulting in a temporary loss of consciousness are caused by a concussion.


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## CB Jones (Jun 11, 2017)

DanT said:


> Yes, depending on the severity of the KO, because they are the same thing. Anyone you see getting KOed, got concussed.



You can also be concussed without being KO'd.  Grade 1 concussions do not require unconsciousness.


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## DanT (Jun 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> You can also be concussed without being KO'd.  Grade 1 concussions do not require unconsciousness.


Yes, and grade 1 concussions happen frequently during fights. Grade 2 and 3 are your KOs.

I know this stuff as I'm studying to become a PT and a concussion specialist. If you guys have any questions you can ask.


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## JR 137 (Jun 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Not technicality. Because a concussion is a bit different to a knock out.
> 
> So a person gets knocked out. You then check to see if they are concussed.



Any time someone is hit in the head and a loss of consciousness results, it is technically a concussion.  Doesn't matter if they're out for a second or an hour.  Symptoms can go away quickly, or they can linger on for quite some time.  It's still a concussion, according to neurologists.

Even "getting your bell rung" for a second or two is technically a concussion.

There are grades (or severity) of concussions.  The trend here has gone to grades 1, 2, and 3.  1 meaning minor and resolving itself within a short time, like a half hour or so.  2 meaning anything beyond that, including coma, grade 3 being death.

I liked the Glasgow and Colorado scales, where there were graded on scales going to 10 or higher, but 1-3 simplified it.  Glasgow and Colorado were phased out shortly after I received my bachelors degree in sports medicine.  I graduated in 2001, so around 2003 or so?


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## Brownielox (Jun 11, 2017)

DanT said:


> Yes, and grade 1 concussions happen frequently during fights. Grade 2 and 3 are your KOs.
> 
> I know this stuff as I'm studying to become a PT and a concussion specialist. If you guys have any questions you can ask.



Thanks! I'm studying kinesiology right now and hoping to be a PT too.

This is all so cool to learn about!! I might sound like a horrible person, but I wanna learn how to take someone out like this. It just screams badass!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> Thanks! I'm studying kinesiology right now and hoping to be a PT too.
> 
> This is all so cool to learn about!! I might sound like a horrible person, but I wanna learn how to take someone out like this. It just screams badass!


Most of us pretend to be more mature than that. Most of us aren't. Sometimes, we just want to learn something that seems at least a little badass.


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## JP3 (Jun 11, 2017)

Check this out:

The Science of a Boxing Knockout

I think there are other types of "shutdowns" built intot he body which can cause unconsciousness and/or body shutdown. Liver shots do the body shutdown thing. I caught a guy with a spinning back kick once during an aggressive sparring class and he went straight down, couldn't move anything and was just staring forward... but he was breathing fine. He was down for maybe 10, 15 seconds then started to move around as his systems came back online. First time I'd ever experienced that, but it IS a thing. Can't be explained witht he explanation given thru the above link.


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Liver shots do the body shutdown thing.



Yes but you stay conscious so get to experience all the nastiness of it!


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## marques (Jun 11, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> As far as I understand (kindly correct me if I'm wrong), there are 2 ways to end/win an MMA fight: knockout or submission.
> 
> How does a knockout usually happen? The most common one I've heard of is a fighter punches or kicks someone, and they go down and remain unresponsive. How is that possible? I'm studying human physiology right now, and this really interests me.


It can also be won by decision or ending in a draw (which is rare). Can also be Technical KO, when the fighter is clearly conscious but unable to defend himself.

How does it happens... I think over here we know better what it is a 'practical sense' than the physiological processes.  Anyway, it is a really interesting topic. Thanks for starting it.


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2017)

I've seen a fight ended with corners throwing in the towel. There's no governing body here and while most promotions will use the 'UFC' rules and variations of, some will allow the towel throwing to end the fight. Some refs would throw the towel back out and carry on though! Most bizarre fight ending I've seen was one fighter throwing a couple of punches then getting out of the ring and walking away, though at least he started the fight, another I saw walked in, went to his corner, got up and walked back out.


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## JP3 (Jun 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Yes but you stay conscious so get to experience all the nastiness of it!


That is certainly what it looked like. We were all really worried about the guy, I thought I'd hurt him bad, like maybe I broke some ribs or something. He ended up with a bit of a bruise, but that was it. He told us later that he really could see or hear much... or at least couldn't do anything with what he was seeing and hearing... and then everything sort of returned to focus ina rush. He did Not care for it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

Here's a decent article about how a liver shot causes a KO.


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## Brownielox (Jun 11, 2017)

marques said:


> It can also be won by decision or ending in a draw (which is rare). Can also be Technical KO, when the fighter is clearly conscious but unable to defend himself.
> 
> How does it happens... I think over here we know better what it is a 'practical sense' than the physiological processes.  Anyway, it is a really interesting topic. Thanks for starting it.



Nah, thank all y'all for responding. I really didn't expect this post to blow up like it did. I woke up to like 6 notifications...like on Facebook or something. Knocking people out, as bad as it sounds, has always really interested me ever since it happened to me a few years ago. It honestly inspired me to learn more about our bodies and our limits, hence why I'd like to be a PT





JP3 said:


> That is certainly what it looked like. We were all really worried about the guy, I thought I'd hurt him bad, like maybe I broke some ribs or something. He ended up with a bit of a bruise, but that was it. He told us later that he really could see or hear much... or at least couldn't do anything with what he was seeing and hearing... and then everything sort of returned to focus ina rush. He did Not care for it.



That sounds pretty scary, tbh. Is striking more likely to cause long-term damage or grappling?? I like grappling better, I'm waaaayyyy better with my groundwork. My strikes, as you can see in my kickboxing, is pretty atrocious


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## Tez3 (Jun 12, 2017)

The thing about a liver shot is that requires only a small force to be effective. I always think when people are ranting about the eponymous eye gouge and the 'notorious' groin shot they really should experience a liver shot to see how much it disables an attacker.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The thing about a liver shot is that requires only a small force to be effective. I always think when people are ranting about the eponymous eye gouge and the 'notorious' groin shot they really should experience a liver shot to see how much it disables an attacker.


Agreed. I teach eye gouges and groin shots in appropriate situations, just like liver shots, face shots, etc. Livers are as easy to hit as groins in many situations, easier in some (certainly with hands), and less often reflexively protected.


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## CB Jones (Jun 12, 2017)

Always wondered why from side control why MMA fighters don't use more knees to the liver area.

Does a person lying down diminish the effect of a liver shot?


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## JR 137 (Jun 12, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Always wondered why from side control why MMA fighters don't use more knees to the liver area.
> 
> Does a person lying down diminish the effect of a liver shot?



Good question.  Speculating, as I'm not an MMA guy, but have plenty of wrestling experience...

The liver is in the front, not so much the side, so it may be a harder target to hit with knees from side control.

In side control or just about any other ground position), you want to keep maximum body contact to control your opponent and also not give him an escape.  You've got to give some of that up to swing a knee shot.

The mechanics of striking with a knee while on the ground don't allow it to be as strong as it would on your feet/in a clinch.

Perhaps I'm off here.  I'd have to try striking while on the ground to get a better understanding.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Good question.  Speculating, as I'm not an MMA guy, but have plenty of wrestling experience...
> 
> The liver is in the front, not so much the side, so it may be a harder target to hit with knees from side control.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much it. In order to get the right angle for a knee to the liver of an opponent under side mount, you'd be giving up a lot of control and would likely lose the position.


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## Brownielox (Jun 12, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Good question.  Speculating, as I'm not an MMA guy, but have plenty of wrestling experience...
> 
> The liver is in the front, not so much the side, so it may be a harder target to hit with knees from side control.
> 
> ...



Oh so you're a wrestler? You mind if I ask you some questions?


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## JR 137 (Jun 12, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> Oh so you're a wrestler? You mind if I ask you some questions?



I don't wrestle any more.  I haven't coached it in a few years too, but by all means, ask away.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> Thanks! I'm studying kinesiology right now and hoping to be a PT too.
> 
> This is all so cool to learn about!! I might sound like a horrible person, but I wanna learn how to take someone out like this. It just screams badass!



Go with chokes. Choking someone out is pretty badass to be honest


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Always wondered why from side control why MMA fighters don't use more knees to the liver area.
> 
> Does a person lying down diminish the effect of a liver shot?



Here is my guess.

Any way you knee they can pretty much put an arm in the way. Which is where they want that arm to go to turn inwards anyway.


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## Brownielox (Jun 12, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I don't wrestle any more.  I haven't coached it in a few years too, but by all means, ask away.



Oh cool. Do I just ask here, or is there like a separate chat function on this thing?



drop bear said:


> Go with chokes. Choking someone out is pretty badass to be honest



Ohhhh trust me...after tonight I definitely want to choke someone out....I'm majorly POed and would _love _to dish it out on a [expletive]...


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## JR 137 (Jun 12, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> Oh cool. Do I just ask here, or is there like a separate chat function on this thing?
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhh trust me...after tonight I definitely want to choke someone out....I'm majorly POed and would _love _to dish it out on a [expletive]...



You can ask here or start a new thread.  You're the one who started this thread, so I don't think there's any issue with you asking here.  A separate thread might get more responses from the community and more focused responses though.


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## DanT (Jun 12, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's pretty much it. In order to get the right angle for a knee to the liver of an opponent under side mount, you'd be giving up a lot of control and would likely lose the position.


This is what I was gonna say. The opponent would probably go into guard.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 12, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> Oh cool. Do I just ask here, or is there like a separate chat function on this thing?
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhh trust me...after tonight I definitely want to choke someone out....I'm majorly POed and would _love _to dish it out on a [expletive]...


Ask here or a separate thread, but I will selfishly request you don't ask general questions in a pm (if they're personal questions ignore this).

How are the rest of us supposed to learn if you keep the questions hidden?


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## Brownielox (Jun 14, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Ask here or a separate thread, but I will selfishly request you don't ask general questions in a pm (if they're personal questions ignore this).
> 
> How are the rest of us supposed to learn if you keep the questions hidden?


You got it! I don't really know what y'all can really learn from me. I don't know jacksh*t haha


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## CB Jones (Jun 15, 2017)

Brownielox said:


> You got it! I don't really know what y'all can really learn from me. I don't know jacksh*t haha



You ask questions....other posters answer and discuss....multiple people learn from your question.

So your questions bring a lot of good value to the board.


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