# What positive contribution have YOU made to Modern Arnis?



## DrBarber (Oct 6, 2005)

During an exchange of posts on the thread, *Modern Arnis Basic Striking Patterns Discussion*, Tim Hartman, made the following comment: "It is very evident that the members of camp Barber would rather cause trouble than contribute to the growth of our late Teachers legacy." (Tim Hartman - 9-26-2005)

On 9-27-2005, I replied in part: This is what "...I have done in the past to positively contribute the legacy of Professor, I have taught Modern Arnis at Erie Community College in both Orchard Park and Buffalo, NY since 1987 to the present. My four course sequence is taught for academic credit through the PE Department. Professor himself approved the entire program in writing in 1989. I also hosted Professor for at least one seminar and camp every year from 1986 to 1994." 

Over the course of the next week, I have noticed that no one else has stepped up to inform this forum of any contributions that they have made to "...contribute to the growth of our late Teachers legacy."  Therefore I am posing this question to ALL of the MTC subscribers who are students and /or instructors in Modern Arnis: What have you done to make a positive contribution "...to the growth of our late Teachers legacy." 

Mr. Hartman's statement is actually contains the basis for a very good question and discussion. 

Please note and understand that a contribution to the art has nothing to do with what rank and/or title one might have. This question is not directed toward others. It is specificly being asked of each individual person - YOU. I am asking each of you to answer the question for and about yourself.  What someone else has done is not important relative to this question. I am looking forward to your replies and particularly that of Mr. Hartman. 

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2005)

Mr. Hartman is out of town, doing a seminar in Colorado, and may not be able to reply immediately.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2005)

My contributions:
- Founded MartialTalk under the idea of offering a common area of communication and news sharing to help the community stay in touch, and informed on what everyone is doing. As part of that, the policy of minimal topic removal was instituted to allow MT to serve as a living, growing archive of history.

- Setup one of the first memorials to the late GM Presas online where his students and friends have contributed memories of who he was so that we can all remember him.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 6, 2005)

I tried to work here at MT to have aplace for Modern Arnis.

I have have been training for about 20 years and enjoy dharing the art with other people

I have worked with those who are Blind and with other physical disabilities, each case is unique for how one address self defense to compensate for a disability.

I have taught at churches andother womens clubs about self defense and awareness.

I have also taught and assisted at the Intermural classes for U of M - Flint. Nothing recently but while I was there in the 80's.

I recently have with the help of those here on this board and with those I have met by going to functions / events, increased my seminar schedule to teach more people. As of date I have done 3 100% benefit seminars to help individuals or tragic events. As I enjoy the teaching I also enjoy helping others when ever I can.

I have travelled to see as many of those who also teach as I can in the last four years. This has helped me to make friends and connections as well to see where I stand myself. One can never be too good at teaching and there is almost always something you can learn to help you improve and to reach more people.

Personally my 6 events this year, and those previously, as well as the club I teach, is not what I would call a major contribution. I am just doing what little I can.

Peace
:asian:


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## Gryphon (Oct 6, 2005)

What is the point of this question? I've been training for little over a year, never met Professor Presas, and can't kill anyone with the super secret death punch. So what? I contribute by simply learning about Modern Arnis and Professor. I tell others about Filipino Martial Arts and how much I enjoy them. Why does every forum here turn into a contest? Dr. Barber, Datu's Worden and Hartman, Dan Anderson, Bram Frank, Jeff Delaney, and Dippo the Wondermutt can all kick my butt, so why does it matter to a begining student like me who has contributed the most. I say this with much respect for everyone, but *I DON'T CARE!* You are all important to Modern Arnis and I think it cheapens the very thing you all love so much to continually revisit the "who's best", "who's the true successor", "who's teacher can beat up who's teacher", etc., contest

I've been intimidated to participate too much in the forum because I lack experience and by the hostility that erupts around here and I wonder how many students or interested parties see the posts here and decide that Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do better suits them because these Modern Arnis guys seem like such jerks. The point is that you all may be doing more damage than you think every time you type before you think. I've been fortunate to have met some really great and interesting people in the short time I've been training, but if I had read the forum before meeting them I probably would have chosen not to associate with them. 

My dream would be to travel around the country and train with as many of you as I could. You all have a unique interpretation that makes you valuable contributors. In my opinion, one of the beauties of Arnis is that there is such a variety of techniques, skills, and interpretations, and personalities to learn and learn from. Market that instead of yourselves and and I think Modern Arnis will grow. 

I've attended a seminar with Datu Hartman that I fully enjoyed. He was a very good instructor and broke down the techniques for those of us with limited skills and shared some of his moments with Professor with us. I've looked at Dan Anderson's website and I'm asking my wife for his books for Christmas because they seem like they will be an excellent resource. This doesn't mean that Datu Worden isn't as good an instructor as Datu Hartman or that someone else can't write an excellent training guide. Perhaps I am hammering the point too much, but I *LIKE* the fact that I have all these options and resources at my fingertips and I could care less that Datu A doesn't like Datu B. In all honesty, its not about *YOU*. Its about your students and the art. That will be the true legacy and I can't help wondering if Professor might not be just a bit disappointed with some of you.

I truly hope that I have not offended because that was not the intent. This is one frustrated individuals attempt to express himself. If anyone wishes to continue this discussion I promise to respond with civility and as much eloquence as I posses.

Respectfully,

Ryan J. Kelsey


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## Bester (Oct 6, 2005)

Well said Ryan.
Reading things in the MA forum often seems like a soap opera. I've said it before that the egos, nitpicking and need to be "top dog" hurt the art's progression. All the BS just turns potential students or partners away. 


Here's the opposite question, directed to the so called "Leaders" in MA: What have you done to damage Arnis and tarnish the dreams of GM. Presas? All the backbiting, politics, sending your students to argue while you sit back and act innocent, game playing on forums, spreading lies and rumor, constantly cutting each other down? Theres an almost 600 post thread on another forum which features a few clueless crap-slingers, banned losers from this site, and the students of at least 2 of the so-called "Leaders" locked in a war of words. All arguing over who's good and who's crap, and a ton of other pointless drivel. All it really means is that I'd never personally train with any of those involved, or their instructors.  Why? Because I prefer my training partners and instructors to have reached a certain level of maturity, little of which is on display there, and is often in short supply here. If you've engaged in politicking, scheming, game playing, sniping, sending your drones to battle, or screwing around with other instructors students, then shame on you.

If you want to learn Modern Arnis, there are many excellent instructors out there. Many don't care if they are in the limelight, seen as the "heir", or on the cover of "Black Belt".  They just want to train, share and enjoy the art. Seek them out, they are out there. 

Worden, Hartman, Anderson, Barber, etc, all reportedly offer solid training, though each person approaches things a little differently, a combination of personal flavor, experiences, influences, etc.  Exp-Anderson's is reportedly flavored a bit with his Karate background, Barbers influenced by Tracy Kenpo, and Dippo's with Scooby Snaks.  It's all good, just different. It's just a shame theres such a desire to be seen as "The Best" and rather than just show how good they are, that they engage in the crap we've seen.

People have been "run outta dodge" here because others thought they were game playing under false names. Others have used multiple accounts to push their own agendas. I'm not sure I'd want to study under an instructor so insecure of their own ability that they have to resort to such tricks to boost their own visibility.

So, what is a positive contribution?
- How many seminars did you teach?
- How many seminars were you invited to teach?
- How many events did you attend, just for the sake of being there?
- How many of your own students did you bring with you?
- How much do you encourage your students to attend other MA events?
- How many other MA events do you attend outside your own 'circle'?
- How many of your own students have you helped guide to a teaching level?
- How have you helped promote, expand or otherwise get the word out about Modern Arnis and it's benefits?


But, I'll answer the original question:
What have I done?  I refer people here to the leading Modern Arnis forum online so that they can find information, training partners, events, seminars and schools to train at. Modern Arnis looks to be a wonderfully adaptable and flexible art, and there are many excellent instructors out there.  Once you get them out of primadona mode that is.


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## Mark Lynn (Oct 6, 2005)

Gryphon said:
			
		

> 1) What is the point of this question? I've been training for little over a year, never met Professor Presas, and can't kill anyone with the super secret death punch. So what? I contribute by simply learning about Modern Arnis and Professor. I tell others about Filipino Martial Arts and how much I enjoy them. Why does every forum here turn into a contest? Dr. Barber, Datu's Worden and Hartman, Dan Anderson, Bram Frank, Jeff Delaney, and Dippo the Wondermutt can all kick my butt, so why does it matter to a begining student like me who has contributed the most. I say this with much respect for everyone, but *I DON'T CARE!* You are all important to Modern Arnis and I think it cheapens the very thing you all love so much to continually revisit the "who's best", "who's the true successor", "who's teacher can beat up who's teacher", etc., contest
> 
> 2) I've been intimidated to participate too much in the forum because I lack experience and by the hostility that erupts around here and I wonder how many students or interested parties see the posts here and decide that Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do better suits them because these Modern Arnis guys seem like such jerks. The point is that you all may be doing more damage than you think every time you type before you think. I've been fortunate to have met some really great and interesting people in the short time I've been training, but if I had read the forum before meeting them I probably would have chosen not to associate with them.
> 
> ...



Ryan 
I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) Relax a little, I think Dr. Barber might be trying to address a point here about what have students and teachers done to benefit the art that the Professor left us.  I didn't take this as who's better and who's has done more and who can beat up who.  Actually as a beginning student you are doing all that you can, and that's great by just learning and sticking with the system.

2) I'm sorry that you have felt intimidated at times to join in, but all of us here don't get into some of the issues that are expressed on MT.  However for the most part this is a great forum.  I visit here far more often than some other forums for the wide experience on this forum and the wide view points that are presented.  I hope you stick around.

3) I totally agree with you here.  It is great to be able to see the different instructors who teach MA, since everyone has a bit different take on the material.  Seeing the different instructors helps one to get a broader understanding of the art, to think outside of the box so to speak.  This has been my goal as well and one that I'm actively trying to fullfill.

4) Again I agree with you here Dan's books are excellent resource material, Datu Tim is a good instructor as well as Datu Worden (I speak from the experience of having seen them all at one time or another).  I hold all of them in pretty high regard and there shouldn't be a problem with going to see anyone of them (or anyone else for that matter).  However I don't think the Professor would be dissapointed in any one of his instructors except for individuals like myself who aren't teaching and spreading his art as these other gentleman are.

I believe that GM Remy would be proud of how his art has grown and how his students are now supporting and coming out to see his older students/instructors.  This couldn't or wouldn't have happened if the Professor was still alive since he would be the main man and the person that everyone would go see.  But now that he has left us, we have some excellent sources of MA that are now coming out that we would never have seen before.  Think about it in the past few years Dr. Barber put on the Symposium (let's not get into Symposium bashing OK), SM Dan Anderson put on the Inernational Modern Arnis Summercamp, The MOTTs and the IMAF have put on their arnis seminars, Datu Worden put on some camps as well.  And all of these had instructors from abroad (Datu Dieter, Samual Bambit Dulay, Gabbi, Roland Dantes), and I believe these wouldn't have taken place if the Professor were still alive.  Not forgetting that Dr. Remy Jr. was traveling with the late Dr. Willy promoting his fathers art, and the other instructors of MARPPIO.

While I'm not in anyway suggesting that we are better off without the Professor, what I am saying is that this art isn't dieing but I believe it is growing and expanding and that GM Remy would be proud of it.

OK group hug time.
Respectively submitted

Mark Lynn


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## Mark Lynn (Oct 6, 2005)

Ok sorry for the double post.

I forgot to reread my post before I clicked submit, so please forgive my spelling or grammer errors.

In the spirit of how I understood this thread to be here is my contributions to Modern Arnis.

Not much.

About the only thing that I have done except try and get my students and friends to see the Professor and teach them MA etc. etc. is to try and support several different instructors events over the years.

I figure its a win win situation, I try and see as many different instructors of the Professor's in as many different places as I can and I help the promoter's bottom line (one more person at the event) and I get to learn some neat stuff. This ultimately helps me to get a broader understanding of MA and the martial arts as well. 

Whenever I go to a seminar I try and learn what the instructor is showing and then help others learn it as well.  It isn't about me as it is about them, the student is paying to see the instructor not me, I'm paying to see the instructor and learn his material, I can impress myself and others at home.  So if I help someone it is to help them with the instructor who is on the floor material not mine. 

That's my only contribution.  In my previous post I mentioned that GM Remy might be dissapointed in people like myself, let me explain.  The Professor always wanted us to promote MA, and sadly due to things outside of my control, job family, etc. etc. I haven't been able to do that.  With all of the experience that I have in the system, all of the instructors I have seen, all of the hundreds of pages of notes taken at the seminars and the hundreds of hours typing them, are all to no avail to anyone unless you get out and teach it.  It does no good if it goes with you to the grave.  The Datus, MOTTS, the IMAF, MARPPIO, and all of the other instructors that are spreading his art I think are doing what he would have wanted instead of being the eternal student that I am.  So I haven't done much.

But I have had a lot of fun.    

Mark


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## Tgace (Oct 6, 2005)

Contribution? Not much here. The only thing I do is try to use what Ive learned at work. Which is advantageous for both me and the people I work for.


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## DrBarber (Oct 6, 2005)

Gryphon said:
			
		

> What is the point of this question? I've been training for little over a year, never met Professor Presas, and can't kill anyone with the super secret death punch. So what? I contribute by simply learning about Modern Arnis and Professor. I tell others about Filipino Martial Arts and how much I enjoy them. Why does every forum here turn into a contest? Dr. Barber, Datu's Worden and Hartman, Dan Anderson, Bram Frank, Jeff Delaney, and Dippo the Wondermutt can all kick my butt, so why does it matter to a begining student like me who has contributed the most. I say this with much respect for everyone, but *I DON'T CARE!* You are all important to Modern Arnis and I think it cheapens the very thing you all love so much to continually revisit the "who's best", "who's the true successor", "who's teacher can beat up who's teacher", etc., contest
> 
> I've been intimidated to participate too much in the forum because I lack experience and by the hostility that erupts around here and I wonder how many students or interested parties see the posts here and decide that Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do better suits them because these Modern Arnis guys seem like such jerks. The point is that you all may be doing more damage than you think every time you type before you think. I've been fortunate to have met some really great and interesting people in the short time I've been training, but if I had read the forum before meeting them I probably would have chosen not to associate with them.
> 
> ...


Dear Ryan J. Kelsey,

IF you had read my post that opened this thread and kept in mind the title, you would have understood that if YOU have not made what you consider to be a positive contribution to Modern Arnis then you need not reply! As a new short term student, I doubt that anyone expects that you have or are ready to make a positive contribution to the art. Not a problem. You need time to learn and grow within the art.

The purpose of my question was to ask people to reflect on and then report what they believe was THEIR OWN positive contribution to Modern Arnis. I DID NOT SET any conditions other than each person must discuss what they did. They are to ignore what others have done for the purpose of this thread. Rank and/or titles ARE NOT to be included or discussed because these things are not contributions! 

YOU introduced the negative tones within this thread. YOU have reflected back on and given reports about other instructors. IF YOU had read my post carefully you would not have done that! 

In summary, so as not to belabor the point any further, the question to be addressed is:

"What positive contribution have YOU made to Modern Arnis?"

Given that the word YOU is in capitals, that should indicate that the proper way to answer this question is to focus solely on your own activities. That is what I have asked, that is what I hope most repondents will focus on and there shouldn't be any comments about who is good, better or best, because nowhere in my post or the question itself was there any reference to that concept.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Gryphon (Oct 6, 2005)

Dr. Barber,

I had just finished a nice long response to you and of course I accidentally hit the "Back" button on my browser and lost the whole message...sigh. I will try to recreate it to the best of my ability. First, I would like to thank you for taking the time to respond back to me and taking my comments seriously. I would like to attempt to clarify a few items from my previous post and address a couple of items from yours.

First and foremost, I hope that you will not interpret my previous response as an attack directed at you. It was more of a visceral response to the cummulative effect of several hundred posts on this forum seeking to aggrandize an individual or group above others. Many seemingly innoccous posts have turned into several page long "chest thumping" sessions. Though an uniterested 3rd party would probably wonder why I reacted as I did I think you will admit that the historical evidence in this forum has created an environment that causes some of us to read between the lines. In addition, you did throw down the gauntlet to Datu Hartman specifically by name to list his positive contributions. However, if you truly had no such intent and I misinterpreted what you were saying, please come right out and say it and I will humbly beg your pardon on the list, no questions asked. I'm not interested in being "right", I just wanted to express the frustration of a new student that thinks all of you are worth knowing and training with and is tired of seeing the backbiting.

[/QUOTE] YOU introduced the negative tones within this thread. YOU have reflected back on and given reports about other instructors. IF YOU had read my post carefully you would not have done that!
[/QUOTE] 
Yes, I did introduce a negative tone, but that was not the intent and I introduced other instructors because they are some of the more common names thrown around in these "chest thumping" sessions that I referred to earlier. The point was that just because I have trained at one seminar with Datu Hartman does not mean that I don't have an open mind in regard to training with you, or Datu Worden, or Dan Anderson. In fact, I wish I had the opportunity to do so. However, it almost seems that you have to join one camp or another and I find that sad. I believe that the strength is the diversity of all the instructors and I don't think of any of you being better, or worse than each other, just different. 

This leads me to my last point. The question you asked "What positive contributions have you made..." is a challege and will be taken as such by those who are invested in the concept of "I'm better, no I'm better". I am a devout cynic, and I've been wrong before, but does this not create an environment where we once again will have the top instructors of Modern Arnis trying to outdo each other? I think that we all have made a contribution just by choosing and learning about Modern Arnis and I guess thats enough for me to want to know more of you. I don't need to know how many seminars, schools, organizations, or doodads you have or created.

In conclusion, in my own little way, I'm trying to contribute to Modern Arnis by asking you all to be a little nicer to each other, respect each other a little more, and spend more time teaching your students the super secret death punch so we can all be super ninjas like you.  

Respectfully Yours,

Ryan


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## Bester (Oct 7, 2005)

Maybe Ryans positive contribution here is reminding the morons pushing new students away that they are hurting the art more than helping it by all their selfish and selfserving actions?  I said it before, would be nice to see more history/content rather than event ads and "I da best" pap.


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## Cebu West (Oct 7, 2005)

From the tone of Dr Barber's opening statement this thread had no place to go but down hill. It should have never gotten off the ground.

Sal     :feedtroll


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## Guro Harold (Oct 7, 2005)

Ok Everyone,

Let's go on with adding your personal contributions if you please. It would be a pleasure to read about them.

Some of you have set the bar high in your contribution to your students and community and that's what I care to read about in this thread.

-Palusut
MT Member


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## James Patrick (Oct 7, 2005)

The problem is, this thread is one big loaded question to begin with. If you don't answer (especially if your Hartman because he was specifically called out), then the assumption that certian people will make is that you haven't made any contributions. If you do answer, then you come off as a blowhard egomaniac who is on an internet forum trying to justify himself and brag about all his contributions. Then, as a natural progression of many of the threads on Modern Arnis, it gets reduced to a pissing match of "who has done more," with all participants scrutinizing each other and cutting each other down. Nothing positive comes of it, and everyone walks away from it with ill feelings about Modern Arnis people in general. 

So, how is that a good contribution? It isn't. This is a prime example of some of the stupidity that goes on in the martial arts. I can't see anything good coming out of answering the proposed question, as good intentioned as guys like Mr. Parsons and "Boarman" might be when posting.

So, I am actually humbly asking the leadership here to NOT participate in this thread, as I can only see it going south. Time could be better spent actually making the contributions rather then talking about them.

Yours,

James Patrick


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## Guro Harold (Oct 7, 2005)

None the less, lets hear about your individual contributions.


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## DrBarber (Oct 7, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Ok Everyone,
> 
> Let's go on with adding your personal contributions if you please. It would be a pleasure to read about them.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this comment.  I am very interested in what people believe that they did to contribute to the art and Professor's legacy.  By asking everyone to refer only to their own efforts, the likelihood of bashing others while praising ones' self has been greatly diminished, athough certinly not eliminated.  

I am only interested in what people see themselves doing on the POSITIVE side of the ledger.  If people stay within the strictures of  my original post, there will be only positive material presented.  Some people may not be able to post, that's OK, because they can read and possibly learn something from what others have contributed.  

Please note that I took a negative statement, revised it and asked a positive question, while citing my source.  I gave full and positive credit to that same person.  If some people "see", "sense" or "read" some negative intent into my question about positive contributions, there is nothing that I can do about that.  I will basicly ignore them.

Resepctfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Oct 7, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Maybe Ryans positive contribution here is reminding the morons pushing new students away that they are hurting the art more than helping it by all their selfish and selfserving actions? I said it before, would be nice to see more history/content rather than event ads and "I da best" pap.


Come on, James... Sith Jitsu...?  Why champion and encourage Ryan's theme?  Here is an opportunity for people to comment in a positive manner and tell us what they believe is a positive contribution to the art from their perspective.  You have beaten this "selfish, self-serving, argumentive" theme beyond death.  Let it go!  Make a positve statement about what you have contributed to Modern Arnis and Professor's legacy.  If you can't do than, then lay out and leave some band width for those who can and are willing to speak up.  Thanks.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Oct 7, 2005)

James Patrick said:
			
		

> The problem is, this thread is one big loaded question to begin with. If you don't answer (especially if your Hartman because he was specifically called out), then the assumption that certian people will make is that you haven't made any contributions. If you do answer, then you come off as a blowhard egomaniac who is on an internet forum trying to justify himself and brag about all his contributions. Then, as a natural progression of many of the threads on Modern Arnis, it gets reduced to a pissing match of "who has done more," with all participants scrutinizing each other and cutting each other down. Nothing positive comes of it, and everyone walks away from it with ill feelings about Modern Arnis people in general.
> 
> So, how is that a good contribution? It isn't. This is a prime example of some of the stupidity that goes on in the martial arts. I can't see anything good coming out of answering the proposed question, as good intentioned as guys like Mr. Parsons and "Boarman" might be when posting.
> 
> ...


Dear Sir,

You have assumed quite a bit, based on a simple one sentence question.  I happen to like and see nothing wrong with the answers posted by Mr. Hubbard, Mr. Parsons and "Boarman".  They answered within the letter and spirit of the question as asked.  I have no comments and make no judgements with regard to anything that they posted.

Regarding Mr. Hartman, he hasn't posted as of this moment and that is based on either his choice or availability.  I have nothing to say one way or the other if he posts or does not post.  I simply took a negative and short-sighted statement, turned it into a question and presented that to everyone on the forum.  If you chose not to participate and give us an idea of what you have done in the past to contribute to Modern Arnis and Professor's legacy, that's fine and prefectly acceptable.  If you contribute, that will be equally fine and your contribution will be accepted as posted.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 7, 2005)

Ok,

Now on with the thread.

-Palusut


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## DrBarber (Oct 7, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Ok,
> 
> Now on with the thread.
> 
> -Palusut


That works for me.  I am looking forward to more positive contribution statements.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 7, 2005)

My goodness.  I just found out about this thread and for once it got toasty without my participation.  My timing must be getting better.

So, the thing I have done most for the art has been the _clarification_ of the instruction and history of my teacher.  I do this via my books, seminars, and upcoming video instruction.  On a brief side note, my arnis has been less influenced by the physical training karate background I've had (but who can honestly deny their background?) and more by my research into martial arts principles.

Ryan - unfortunately the clashing of personalities of the senior students of Remy Presas does not make a good presentation of the art but hey, we could be Ed Parker's American Kenpo shortly after the founder's death so we're not that bad.  We each are doing our part to continue our teacher's, and now _our_ art.  As Mark said, Modern Arnis is not dying.  

I think this is an interesting question regardless of its validity in the larger scheme of things.  Whether I get along with (insert name here) or not is not necessarily valid nor is the question of if my contributions are equal, better, or lesser than (insert name here).  _That_ has no validity, in my opinion.  What we have done and what we are doing is valid and that we continue is valid.  One other thing which I think is great is that in the last number of years, there are some quiet, yet skilled and knolwedgeable guys who have been minding their own business have come out and have begun to publicly contribute.  One such person known to this forum is Rich Parsons.

Anyway, my twenty seven cents worth.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Ryan - You don't need to join my camp to come by and train (if you ever get out this way).  That is an open invitation to eveyone else, by the way.  That is now twenty eight cents.  DA

PPS - James - if the leadership does not take this as an open invitation for a pissing match ( and  I think they won't), it could turn into a great "4-years since" assessment of what we _*collectively*_ done to keep the art going and growing.  I, for one, won't turn this into a pissing match.  DA


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 7, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Well said Ryan.
> Here's the opposite question, directed to the so called "Leaders" in MA: What have you done to damage Arnis and tarnish the dreams of GM. Presas?


Bester,

I'll take you up on that one.  My online clashes with Kelly Worden and Tim Hartman.  How damaging has it been to the art?  The art survives and thrives.  How damaging has it been to Remy's dreams?  Again, the art survives and thrives.  The only difference is that it thrives under the leadership of many instead of just one - the founder.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Gryphon (Oct 7, 2005)

As I promised in my last post to Dr. Barber, I said that if he said that I was mistaken in his intent that I would take his word at face value and publicly apologize to him. 

Dr. Barber,

I did not have malicious intent in questioning you, but I take you at your word that I was wrong. I apologize for reading things in your question that were not there and hope that this is a suffucient means of redress.

Sincerely,

Ryan J. Kelsey


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## SHADOW (Oct 7, 2005)

Ryan - unfortunately the clashing of personalities of the senior students of Remy Presas does not make a good presentation of the art but hey, we could be Ed Parker's American Kenpo shortly after the founder's death so we're not that bad. We each are doing our part to continue our teacher's, and now our art.  

What's that supposed to mean??

Craig Dishmon
Kenpo-Parker/Planas Lineage
Pekiti-Tirsia- McGrath/Whitson Lineage
Remy Presas Arnis
THE DIRTY BOYZ


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 7, 2005)

SHADOW said:
			
		

> Ryan - *1.* unfortunately the clashing of personalities of the senior students of Remy Presas does not make a good presentation of the art but hey, we could be Ed Parker's American Kenpo shortly after the founder's death so we're not that bad. *2. *We each are doing our part to continue our teacher's, and now our art.
> 
> What's that supposed to mean??
> 
> ...


Craig,

1. From my understanding, when Mr. Parker died, the mad scramble for who was the top of the heap outstripped the Modern Arnis mess.  If I am incorrect then I stand corrected.

2. As an art is transmitted down, it becomes part of us.  Since the founder of Modern Arnis died, the art has passed down to us for better or worse.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Oct 9, 2005)

Well, well, well....

I'm out of town for a couple days and the place goes to hell! I just got back from Denver and had a great time. Unfortunately I have to be at the school at 7:00 am for classes. It will be a couple days before I get a chance to post, especially with getting ready for the upcoming seminar in Philly. So let me ask this What have you done Jerome?


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 9, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> On 9-27-2005, I replied in part: This is what "...I have done in the past to positively contribute the legacy of Professor, I have taught Modern Arnis at Erie Community College in both Orchard Park and Buffalo, NY since 1987 to the present. My four course sequence is taught for academic credit through the PE Department. Professor himself approved the entire program in writing in 1989. I also hosted Professor for at least one seminar and camp every year from 1986 to 1994."
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


Tim,
This is from Jerome's very first post.  There is, at least, one of his answers.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## dearnis.com (Oct 10, 2005)

Against my better judgement...

I have travelled around, met some folks, shared in the  art and made new friends. (the important part).
I have hosted various seminars and camps.
I have served on the boards of two major Modern Arnis associations.
I have introduced folks in other FMA systems to Modern Arnis.
I have been instrumental in establishing Modern Arnis as a program core in martial arts clubs at two top-tier Universities.
I have taught seminars/camps in several states.
I have introduced new students to the art (the next generation, post RP, so to speak).
I have continued to seek out training from my seniors within the Modern Arnis community and found acceptance and support from top FMA players in other systems.
I am using Modern Arnis as a means to provide a hand up to members of our family in the devastated Gulf South.
I have dealt with a small number of posers and agenda hounds messing  with the above out of some twisted feelings of inferiority.

I don't think Professor would be entirely un-pleased.


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## Mark Lynn (Oct 10, 2005)

I thought the thread had started to get back on track.  

This reminds me of a kid's story "Lil Toot" (something like that) about the little train that kept running of the tracks and running out in the fields chasing butterflies, looking at buttercup flowers, chasing a horse etc. etc. instead of staying on the track. 

Sorry I'm a bit cranky this morning, my hands are bothering me again and I've got to go see the Chiropracter before work.  I just didn't want to see the thread disinagrate into another pissing match.  Which it doesn't have to.  I actually thought this could be a decent thread to see what things others students and instructors have done to further Modern Arnis, and I hope it will go that way.

Each of us have a choice to take it down that path (the decent way) or have it go down a  path to the dark side.  

Mark


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## DrBarber (Oct 10, 2005)

Gryphon said:
			
		

> As I promised in my last post to Dr. Barber, I said that if he said that I was mistaken in his intent that I would take his word at face value and publicly apologize to him.
> 
> Dr. Barber,
> 
> ...


Thank you, Ryan,

Apology accepted. Let's move forward .

Respectfully yours,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Oct 10, 2005)

T Hartman said:
			
		

> So let me ask this What have you done Jerome?


A beautiful and positive thing, Tim. I asked a question based on a statement of yours.

Jerome


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## DrBarber (Oct 10, 2005)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Tim,
> This is from Jerome's very first post. There is, at least, one of his answers.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


Tnanks Dan, I was in Rochester and Syracuse this weekend and just didn't have time to get on the computer to check the progress of this thread.  The ECC Modern Arnis Program and the Symposium are two of the positive contributions that I have made to Modern Arnis.

I would also like to reinterate that I have enjoyed reading what others have pointed to as their individual contributions to Modern Arnis.  Contrary to the suggestion that people would use the thread as a self-serving testimonial, the posts have been factual and very informative.  I am impressed and very pleased with the results thus far from the people who followed the format and simply answered the question as asked.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Oct 10, 2005)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Against my better judgement...
> 
> I have travelled around, met some folks, shared in the art and made new friends. (the important part).
> I have hosted various seminars and camps.
> ...


Dear Chad,

I am sorry that you felt that you were posting against your better judgement.  I appriciate what you have done and see as your positive contributions to Modern Arnis.  The university club programs are of special interest to me, personally because of what I have done in the past and in a modified manner still do in the present.  I see no reason why you should be apprehensive about posting your contributions.  You are on solid ground and there's no bragging or hype in your presentation.  Thanks for your participation on this threaad.

Respectfully yours,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 10, 2005)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> I don't think Professor would be entirely un-pleased.


I am in total agreement.  Well done!

Yours,
Dan


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 10, 2005)

Gents,

Back on track please.  Here's one for Tim - he has worked over the last couple of years opening up northern Europe for Modern Arnis.

Yours,
Dan


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## Guro Harold (Oct 10, 2005)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> I am in total agreement.  Well done!
> 
> Yours,
> Dan


I am agreement as well.

Chad, you set the bar high.

-Harold


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## Tgace (Oct 11, 2005)

How about a twist on the question?

What CAN YOU DO to contribute to Modern Arnis? Is spreading the art (seminars, schools etc.) all you can do to be considered a contributor? What does the art need?


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 11, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> How about a twist on the question?
> 
> What CAN YOU DO to contribute to Modern Arnis? Is spreading the art (seminars, schools etc.) all you can do to be considered a contributor? What does the art need?


Good twist but another thread topic, I believe.  Question 2 I would answer yes.  Any contribution should be validated.  Question 3?  Hoo boy, that's a loaded question with as many answers as there are opinions.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 11, 2005)

Just as a slight tangent, looking at all the activity going on in the Modern Arnis realm, its a good time to be involved. 

Just a few things I've noticed:
- Dan Anderson's published several books
- Various leaders have videos out on the art, including Tim Hartman, Kelly Worden, Dieter Knuttel and the Presas family.
- There are seminars all over the place. The WMAA's got at least 30 listed on their site, the IMAF has done at least a dozen, Dr. Barber had the Symposium a few years back, there has been a higher presence at various FMA events.
- and so much more!

I think it's all good.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 11, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Just as a slight tangent, looking at all the activity going on in the Modern Arnis realm, its a good time to be involved.


I quite agree.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Dieter (Oct 12, 2005)

OK, here a few things that I have done for Modern Arnis:

I teach Modern Arnis continuously since 1980 in many different schools and groups.
I have organized Modern Arnis seminars with Remy Presas, Ernesto Presas, Roland Dantes, Rodel Dagooc, Cristino Vasquez, Bambit Dulay and in 3 weeks with Rene Tongson as well as with others like Cui Brocka, Dionisio Canete, Bob Breen and Bram Frank.
Since mid of the 80ies, I teach 15 - 25  weekend seminars a year. 
I have heades 9 biannually summercamps with 80 to 145 particioner each.
I am co-founder of the German Modern Arnis association, DAV in 1985 and have been the chief-instructor of the DAV ever since. I have written several examination programs for Modern Arnis, that were adapted in other countries as well.
Around 4000 people have been members of the DAV. We are spreading Modern Arnis in around 70 different groups in Germany and we have examined around 200 Modern Arnis black belts, art the moment from 1st up to 5th Dan.
The DAV organizes around 40 Modern Arnis weekend seminars a year.  
I have helped to start Modern Arnis in Denmark, Sweden and Norway from the   beginning of the 80ies, teaching there twice a year for about 10 years. 
I have taught Modern Arnis in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, England, Spain, Switzerland, Austria, France, Holland, Russia, Australia and in the USA, at the Modern Arnis Symposium 2003 in Buffalo and the Modern Arnis summercamp in Brevard in 2005 but also on other seminars earlier. 
Maybe I have even taught in more countries that I don't remember right now.
Students of mine and black belts of the DAV are currently teaching and helping groups to grow in Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland and Italy.

I was the co-organizer of the first 2 FMA-Festivals in Europe, with 450 and 600 participants.
Also I have iniciated and co-organized the first European Philippine Modern Arnis camp in the Philippines in 1986, as well as I have iniciated the coming Modern Arnis events in the Philippines: The 3rd FMA Festival and Modern Arnis camp in July 2006.

I have released 17 videos or DVDs with Modern Arnis or Modern Arnis related topics over the last 18 years, most of them also available in english and NTSC. In my ABANICO company, that produces instuctiuional vidoes and DVDs, I have issued around 35 to 40 titles that are related to FMA.

I have given Monder Arnis exhibitions in Galas and Shows in Germany, Holland, Sweden and Norway in front of up to 15.000 spectators sometimes even being the opening and closing act of the exhibition als well.

I have appeared in Germany several times on TV to demonstrate Modern Arnis and have been 4 times on the cover of the leading german martial arts magazines. Also I have written many articles and technical series about Modern Arnis for the martial art magazines in the last 25 years.

But the one thing, that I am most proud of is, that I have 15 to 20 students, that are training with me and the DAV already for more than 20 years. My "oldest" student is with me since 1978.

There is more, but I think it would only bore you with too many of the details.
I hope it was not too long anyway. But you asked for it.

Thanks for reading and regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## DrBarber (Oct 12, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> How about a twist on the question?
> 
> What CAN YOU DO to contribute to Modern Arnis? Is spreading the art (seminars, schools etc.) all you can do to be considered a contributor? What does the art need?


Hi Tom,

Actually as I asked an open ended question and having no desire to "steer" the answers in any direction, teaching/operating a school that has a Modern Arnis program within it is a contribution. Going outside of your particular school format and hosting other instructors of Modern Arnis or conducting seminars would be a contribution. In order for the art to continue in existence, people have to present it to the next generation. Teaching is a positive contribution. 

I want no part of that last question. I agree with Dan, that is a seperate thread. If you want to take the lead and start that thread, I will be happy to read through it as it develops. 

My question is still a simple one sentence posting that allows people to answer for themselves and gives us, the readers of this thread, an idea of what others believe that he/she has done to positively contribute to the art. Speaking on behalf of others was discouraged in the text of my post. I very specificly wanted to avoid testimonials and praise-singing on behalf of someone's instructor or friend. I wanted to hear from individuals, speaking on behalf of themselves. 

Thus far those who have posted and answered the question have been direct and factual. There hasn't been any puffed up self-serving pronouncements. I'm quite pleased with what I have read thus far but the tangents are not worth the time it takes to read them.  It seems that some people are easily distracted from the stated task.
If people stay on task, post what they consider as their own positive contributions, I believe that we will see some good ideas coming out. If people want to bicker and see all sorts of negatives or challenges coming 
from a simple one sentence question then we will loose the spirit of my question, which was to turn a negative into a positive. 

By staying within ones self, leaving all others out of their statements, each poster positively adds to the legacy of the late Professor Presas. I can't count the number of times that people have posted that everyone should be working toward keeping his memory and good works alive. Here is a simple and unfettered opportunity to tell everyone what we are doing as individuals to achieve that noble goal. Therefore, I believe that posting must be left as an optional individual activity and all judgements must be suspended. If someone has nothing good to say, then don't say anything on this thread. 
Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 12, 2005)

Dieter,

As usual, you seem to be at a loss for words.   

In the spirit of Brevard,
Dan


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## kruzada (Oct 13, 2005)

I have encouraged my students to return to the Philippines to train with the  IMAFP Masters of Modern Arnis. 4 have gone back to train so far.

I made sure that all of my students registered as members of the International Modern Arnis Federation Philippines (IMAFP).

I encouraged the Black Belts that studied under me to register their ranks with IMAFP (A unique honor approved by the IMAFP Council of Masters). 2 out of 7 have registered so far.

I hosted Senior Master Samuel "Bambit" Dulay for a seminar, and private lessons in NYC, and hope to host more Modern Arnis Masters from the Philippines.

I created the website for the International Modern Arnis Federation Philippines - www.imafp.com

I teach Modern Arnis as a part of my regular curriculum in Kuntaw Kali Kruzada, from the basics to the advanced techniques as they were taught to me by Master Samuel Dulay and my brother Maestro Rico Acosta (New York Coordinator for IMAFP).

On a personal level, I practice Modern Arnis constantly and keep the memory of Grandmaster Remy's advice with me as a reminder of what I have yet to accomplish and why. :asian: 

Everything I have done, as small as my contribution has been, is to honor Grandmaster Remy and his vision for Modern Arnis. I hope more people in the Modern Arnis community will continue to show support for our Modern Arnis brothers in the Philippines and the growth of IMAFP as Datu Dieter Knuttel, Master Dan Anderson and others have done.

Rich Acosta
Chief Instructor
Kuntaw Kali Kruzada


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Oct 20, 2005)

> Gents,
> 
> Back on track please. Here's one for Tim - he has worked over the last couple of years opening up northern Europe for Modern Arnis.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dan, its good to see that people can disagree yet give credit where its due. Im not going submit a list of accomplishments for anyones approval. Those who have been on MTs forum for any period of time know how to find my website or search MT to find out how much I put in Modern Arnis. I dont feel that in matters if you teach one person or a thousand, everyones contribution helps in the huge task of continuing Professors dream. 

What I would like to discuss is my plans for the future. Four years ago Bob Hubbard came to me and told me his concept for MT. He had tried it earlier and couldnt populate it. I reinsured him that if he tried it a second time I could help him get it off the ground. Four years late MT has out grown the two of us. 

Now its time for a new project. My goal, with the help of an excellent staff from MT are trying to duplicate the MT success for the Filipino Martial Arts community with www.FMATALK.com The goal of this MT spin off brand is to help bring the FMA community together in order to give it greater exposure. In its third week the stats are as follow:
*
Members: 87 
Threads: 125 
Posts: 426*

FMAT has already surpassed many FMA forums that have been in existence for years. If FMAT is half as successful as MT has been it will help give our community the exposure that it deserves. 

Unfortunately this project (along with the WMAA and HMA) has already taken much of my MT time. I will still be posting, but no wheres near as I have in the past. I hope to see some of you there. I want to thank everyone who has supported MT the last four years and Im looking forward to extending its brand into uncharted territory. Ill see you all later.


 :cheers:  :asian:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 21, 2005)

My advise to anyone would be to just keep doing what you do
and have a lot of fun with it! I have met so many wonderful
people through the years, that the occasional bad contact is
really meaningless to me! No matter what I just keep teaching,
training and learning and passing on what I know to my students!
I could list all of the things that I have done but really that is
unimportant! What is important to me is to just keep going and
enjoy what I do! I would also ad that there are a lot of events
going on now so you really can pick and choose and have an
opportunity to train almost anywhere and at any time! Modern
Arnis is blessed with many wonderful teachers some of those
include but are not limited to: Dan Anderson, Tim Hartman, 
Kelly Worden, Dr. Remy Presas Junior, Shiroshir Inocalla, Jim Powers,
Rich Parsons, All of the Masters from the Phillipines who have a 
world of knowledge and so on! You really can't go wrong, just
train and enjoy it! Good luck!

Brian R. VanCise


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 21, 2005)

Kudos to your Mr. Hartman and Bob for the FMA Talk forums! 
Hopefully they will be a big success! 

Brian R. VanCise


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## monkey (May 17, 2006)

HERE ARE THE CONTRIBUTIONS!!1-I study the art with the Brothers in the old days.Yes Remy & Ernesto did as 1 art-1 line-1 goal.I keep that dream alive by emulating my teachers (being kind hearted & showing the art to those who show a egor or hungur for the art to go on.2-keeping the art as they did for no political or factions or groups to collect as thier own but, rather to teach as a gift.You would not sell or other a good x-mass gift you waanted as a kid.So it gose for the gift of the art of thier dad & grandfather.From Stoke we get the corto-From Jose we get the abinico & kuntao.Now together we have Close range cut of kuntao.Now Remy & Ernesto gave it the Arnis of the line Balintawak-Surada-Espada y Daga ect.This gift I gladly open & show-not for profit sake but,for the fact its fun-historicaly interesting & keeps 1 fit.Mabuhay Balisalomit


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## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> HERE ARE THE CONTRIBUTIONS!!1-I study the art with the Brothers in the old days.Yes Remy & Ernesto did as 1 art-1 line-1 goal.I keep that dream alive by emulating my teachers (being kind hearted & showing the art to those who show a egor or hungur for the art to go on.2-keeping the art as they did for no political or factions or groups to collect as thier own but, rather to teach as a gift.You would not sell or other a good x-mass gift you waanted as a kid.So it gose for the gift of the art of thier dad & grandfather.From Stoke we get the corto-From Jose we get the abinico & kuntao.Now together we have Close range cut of kuntao.Now Remy & Ernesto gave it the Arnis of the line Balintawak-Surada-Espada y Daga ect.This gift I gladly open & show-not for profit sake but,for the fact its fun-historicaly interesting & keeps 1 fit.Mabuhay Balisalomit



Excuse me?

Balintawak-Surada-Espada y Daga from both the Ernesto and Remy Presas?

First, as far as I know Ernesto never trained in the Cebu Balintawak Club. He may have gotten a little from his brother Remy, but form what I have seen I do not think so. Remy talked to GM Bacon before he left CEBU and explained he woudl be doing his own thing and would not teach Balintawak. 

Now I agree that some did get aspects of Remy Presas Balintawak for example Rocky, and a few others. There are some aspects in the blocks and a few other things as well if he spent the time with you and cared, but to say that both taught Balintawak and used the name, I do not believe it.


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

Ernesto in his move are not how we say without  degrading the family(not to clean)Lot of what he dose like the butterfly-bonkow-mono y mono-serada-esapd y daga seem to have the same basic patterns though many katas are shown -same Remy dose- He tends to stay stagnet.His skills are good & strong but repition tends to lead to the over site of the attackrs to view this & lets them see the chance for opning.Ernie also likes to utilies videos so time to time he uses his brothers for referance of what he dose.This is why Remy changes his styles from mondern arnis -practical-arnisr de tranka-tapi tapi.He knew were they come from.Some times students cross train with both & things or teachings get exchanged.


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## HKphooey (May 18, 2006)

First off, I am still a beginner in the FMA's...

I created StickArts.com, a website decicated to the proliferation of any art involving sticks.  No politics, no bias, no BS, no cost.  All I asked was that poeple supply me with info they want posted.  I have taken the time to gather schools, events and organizations.  I have then sent emails to school owners, organization heads and businesses.  Many do not even reply.  I have personally contacted some individuals asking they put links on their websites, and they do not.  I guess they are afraid of their students finding a better instructor, school or organization.  

Enough rantings, the positives... 
There are many that have taken advantage of the 5,000 unique monthy visitors (I know not a lot compared to MT ).  So people submit articles, photos and seminars on a weekly basises.  Many of them looking for schools in there area.  I thank all of you for your support and appreciation.  Many days I have thought about giving up on it, but then a school owner sends an email thanking me for a new student.

I hope my efforts have gotten the word out there and more people are starting to try the FMA's.  I have met some great people and I hope to meet even more!


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## Cruentus (May 18, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> First off, I am still a beginner in the FMA's...
> 
> I created StickArts.com, a website decicated to the proliferation of any art involving sticks. No politics, no bias, no BS, no cost. All I asked was that poeple supply me with info they want posted. I have taken the time to gather schools, events and organizations. I have then sent emails to school owners, organization heads and businesses.



Not to me. 

Although we are more into general combatives then anything art specific, I am currently offering privates in Balintawak, and I have been active in FMA for over 16 years now. I'll check out your site, and send you info if you are interested. Just give me some time (like months), because I have a lot on my plate right now.

Paul


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## Cruentus (May 18, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Not to me.
> 
> Although we are more into general combatives then anything art specific, I am currently offering privates in Balintawak, and I have been active in FMA for over 16 years now. I'll check out your site, and send you info if you are interested. Just give me some time (like months), because I have a lot on my plate right now.
> 
> Paul


 
Sorry! I was in a hurry and I should of specified that your site sounds like a nice concept, and by "not to me" I mean that I was never notified of it.

If your doing good work, then keep it up, and I'll talk to you soon. 

Paul


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## James Miller (May 22, 2006)

Tim Hartman said:
			
		

> Now its time for a new project. My goal, with the help of an excellent staff from MT are trying to duplicate the MT success for the Filipino Martial Arts community with www.FMATALK.com The goal of this MT spin off brand is to help bring the FMA community together in order to give it greater exposure. In its third week the stats are as follow:
> *
> Members: 87
> Threads: 125
> ...



As of today, May 22, 2006 FMATalk has hit these numbers!

Members: *320* 
Threads: *648* 
Posts:  *4,539

Not bad for 8 months!
*


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 22, 2006)

That is great!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## HKphooey (May 22, 2006)

Way to go!


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## arnisador (May 22, 2006)

Anyone who wants to discuss the FMA is most welcome at FMATalk.com--please join us!


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## The Game (May 24, 2006)

Mine is I ask lots of dumb newbie questions. lol


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## Rich Parsons (May 24, 2006)

The Game said:
			
		

> Mine is I ask lots of dumb newbie questions. lol



It is the Newbies that make the world go round


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## The Game (Sep 4, 2006)

Hey, I'm a newbie!


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