# First Months???



## noob (Feb 16, 2012)

I noticed that there's a lot of piss taking in my Wing Chun class, focused on how "fat" and "bald" specific people are. There is a lot of emphasis towards the negative aspects of members and their appearances or lives in general. While this can be amusing, I am wondering if this is normal? Is it like that in your classes? Or is this a bad dojo? Or is this what martial arts are like in general?

I am interested to hear your views


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## mook jong man (Feb 16, 2012)

noob said:


> I noticed that there's a lot of piss taking in my Wing Chun class, focused on how "fat" and "bald" specific people are. There is a lot of emphasis towards the negative aspects of members and their appearances or lives in general. While this can be amusing, I am wondering if this is normal? Is it like that in your classes? Or is this a bad dojo? Or is this what martial arts are like in general?
> 
> I am interested to hear your views



Normally the students should be so engaged in what they are doing that they shouldn't have time to be worrying about what other people look like.

Bit hard to not concentrate on what your doing when someone is swinging punches at your head.
Sounds a bit  like the instructor is not working you hard enough if people have time to stand around and gossip.

I would go and find some place else , seems like that mob aren't too serious about their training it would seem to me.


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## noob (Feb 16, 2012)

Good points, thank you. It's also the instructor during warm up.

I usually have the belief that martial arts are for personal growth and not for ridicule. Do you agree? IMO that doesn't really aid in personal growth. Maybe I am wrong here though.

I was generally trying to be less critical of people but the class is actually making me more so since I started...


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## mook jong man (Feb 16, 2012)

noob said:


> Good points, thank you. It's also the instructor during warm up.
> 
> I usually have the belief that martial arts are for personal growth and not for ridicule. Do you agree? IMO that doesn't really aid in personal growth. Maybe I am wrong here though.
> 
> I was generally trying to be less critical of people but the class is actually making me more so since I started...




You can have a bit of a joke around for sure , but then you have to get straight down to business.

As an instructor you feel that there's never enough time to cover all the material that you want to in class as it is without people wasting time like that.


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## WC_lun (Feb 16, 2012)

Seems that your instructor isn't working you guys hard enough if you have breath to waste on ridiculing others.  I'd go train elsewhere.

Oh, Chinese martial arts schools are not called dojos.  They are "kwoon."


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## noob (Feb 16, 2012)

Cheers I didn't know they are named "kwoon".


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## hunt1 (Feb 16, 2012)

An instructor should never ridicule or allow anyone in the class to be ridiculed by another. Occasional jokes by friends are fine but there is a line not to be crossed. To learn you need to be comfortable and relaxed .


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## noob (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your advice


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## WCman1976 (Feb 17, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> You can have a bit of a joke around for sure , but then you have to get straight down to business.
> 
> As an instructor you feel that there's never enough time to cover all the material that you want to in class as it is without people wasting time like that.



I agree. Sifu was talking to a new student about how we used to do a cardio warm-up, stretches, push-ups, and a hell of a lot more before class even started. He said, "I dropped it because I have so much to teach."

As for noob's question, I think it is a bad school. That kind of behavior usually stems from the top down. Example: in my school, I have a Sifu who is very humble, polite, approachable, friendly, etc. Every now and then we get people who come that want to be bada$$es, talk bad about other people, and the whole nine...but they last only a few months. I think the Sifu sets the tone for the school.


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## noob (Feb 17, 2012)

Every time I ask a question it feels like I almost get laughed at by the bloke in charge. It's odd how it's taken me so many months to realise this is a bad school!

Live and learn I guess...


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## Domino (Feb 17, 2012)

You learnt something.
Some people like to turn it into coffee morning and wonder why they then don't remember this and that, find another school perhaps.


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## Jenna (Feb 17, 2012)

noob said:


> Every time I ask a question it feels like I almost get laughed at by the bloke in charge. It's odd how it's taken me so many months to realise this is a bad school!
> 
> Live and learn I guess...


If there are students at this school then perhaps they do not think it is a bad school *for them*.  

The point is that if a school does not suit *you*, as has already been advised, move on and find one that does.  You would not cook your food in a way that is disagreeable to your palate, correct? No different for the way you practice your MA.  I wish you well in finding a school that better suits what you are looking for.  

I would suggest that in some instances, gut feeling counts for a great deal.  I think in choosing a martial arts school or instructor, that instinct is valuable.  

I wish you well in your endeavours.  Let us know how you get on and when you find a better alternative!


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## noob (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm already looking at one which has better credentials. I also found a good link that helps rationalising for "sane" people when choosing a school or wondering if their current school is any good. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/sanity.htm


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## Vajramusti (Feb 17, 2012)

hunt1 said:


> An instructor should never ridicule or allow anyone in the class to be ridiculed by another. Occasional jokes by friends are fine but there is a line not to be crossed. To learn you need to be comfortable and relaxed .


---------------------------------------------
Agree completely.

joy chaudhuri


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## mograph (Feb 17, 2012)

hunt1 said:


> An instructor should never ridicule or allow anyone in the class to be ridiculed by another. Occasional jokes by friends are fine but there is a line not to be crossed. To learn you need to be comfortable and relaxed .


This is true for any leader-driven group dynamic, whether martial or not. If the leader allows that sort of ridicule, he is a bully, not a leader, certainly not a teacher, and is more concerned about showing his power.


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 17, 2012)

noob said:


> Good points, thank you. It's also the instructor during warm up.
> 
> I usually have the belief that martial arts are for personal growth and not for ridicule. Do you agree? IMO that doesn't really aid in personal growth. Maybe I am wrong here though.
> 
> I was generally trying to be less critical of people but the class is actually making me more so since I started...



Keep in mind context, as well. That's the type of motivation I usually thrive on, maybe some particular classmates of yours are the same way and the instructor is in tune with this. Just another perspective, but an instructor/sifu/sensei/sabum/whatever should not make a student uncomfortable, upset or feel unwanted.


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## WCman1976 (Feb 17, 2012)

noob said:


> Every time I ask a question it feels like I almost get laughed at by the bloke in charge. It's odd how it's taken me so many months to realise this is a bad school!
> 
> Live and learn I guess...



This only confirms my original impression. If you don't understand something, you are going to be too intimidated to ask because you don't want to be laughed at. I wonder what the teacher of that school's sifu would think if he knew what his pupil was up to. Sounds like he might not have even gotten approval to run his own school, nor has he earned the moniker "Sifu" from anyone.


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## noob (Feb 18, 2012)

Thanks again.

Another thing is that Wing Chun is supposed to be a simple martial art and easy to learn if you try. There are people there who have been there for a year and are still on the first form and "sifu" keeps telling them how rubbish they are.

I get the gut feeling that information is being held back to keep students as slaves, so they end up staying much longer than they need to. Most likely, this is something prevalent in loads of martial arts.



> That's the type of motivation I usually thrive on.



You thrive on someone mocking yours and others faults? Interesting perspective. I don't. I guess everyone is different.

I thrive from learning the skills and getting them right and generally try to relate to people with a courteous demeanor. It's fun to hear stories of other martial arts and share knowledge and experiences. That's how I was brought up. I don't take the piss out of people, I would assume it is not appropriate behaviour. That part could stem from empathy. 

Or is it that there are an awful lot of extremely thick people out there who don't have  the intelligence to make conversation and they are so patheticly insecure that  they have to put others down to make themselves feel big and clever and  important.

Ha, one more point I just remembered is the question I asked in the final class. "Do you want to keep your students?" The reply I got was: "pfft"


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## noob (Feb 18, 2012)

I found another good link that helped me. Thought you lot might be interested as it might help other unsuspecting people that might have similar problems http://apittman.com/blog/teaching/martial-arts-abuse-by-teachers


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## Jenna (Feb 18, 2012)

The good thing from the point of view of a student is that -unlike relationships, education or work- not only are you free to walk away from a situation which does not match your personality, but also the time and effort you have invested in the formerly unsuitable situation is perfectly transferrable to another school irrespective even of whether it is the same style or not.  The skills you have accrued in your MA journey will allow you to hit the road running as soon as you find another school (provided it does not take you all day to find it )  Now get out there browsing around what is available to you and find yourself something that suits the person who is noob  More footwork and less reading I say! the world is waiting for you. Wishes, Jenna.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

noob said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> Another thing is that Wing Chun is supposed to be a simple martial art and easy to learn if you try. *There are people there who have been there for a year and are still on the first form and "sifu" keeps telling them how rubbish they are.
> 
> ...



If the instructor is telling them they are rubbish after a year then the only one that truly is rubbish is the instructor! Your description of the way things are taught and they way the students behave demonstrates things that are unacceptable in any coaching/teaching situation regardless of which martial art or even which sport is being taught. My daughter is a cheer leading coach and she'd regard the things you describe as being unacceptable in her classes. I teach karate as well as MMA, in the latter we are considered less structured than TMA's but laughing *at *people, telling them they are rubbish and having people unable to ask questions lest they are laughed at are unacceptable, anyone 'rubbishing' another would be talked to strongly and if they persisted thrown out.
Find somewhere more congenial and discplined to train in.


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## bully (Feb 18, 2012)

The Sifu sounds like a prick to be honest.

As for the students still being on the first form after a year, that is the only thing he is doing right by the sounds of it!! He shouldn't be telling them they are rubbish though.

That link made interesting reading, thanks.

What part of the world are you in noob? I know that this type of  "banter" (as some see it) is more prevalent in UK/Oz than the US. Not that the US guys don't do it of course but I always found that the Americans I have met are respectful and polite. I know I know, I should be saying they are all loud and brash boasters, but honestly most of the guys I have met in a MA environment have been great.:ultracool


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

bully said:


> The Sifu sounds like a prick to be honest.
> 
> As for the students still being on the first form after a year, that is the only thing he is doing right by the sounds of it!! He shouldn't be telling them they are rubbish though.
> 
> ...



What he is describing isn't 'banter', we have that in the MMA classes and it's certainly not what is going on in this guys classes.


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## noob (Feb 18, 2012)

> As for the students still being on the first form after a year



A year? Other reputable "experts" say you can learn the entire empty handed system in a year? How can the learning gap differ so much from one teacher to the next? I am suspicious of instructors holding back information to keep the student as a permanent income. The sooner people realise this is going on the faster they can develop.

Anyway I definitely felt that something was missing and information was being held back.

Unfortunately money makes the world go round, and I guess that in many cases, moving forward is sacrificed in favor of increasing revenues.

I hope any fellow noob's find this thread helpful when choosing a school


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2012)

noob said:


> A year? Other reputable "experts" say you can learn the entire empty handed system in a year? How can the learning gap differ so much from one teacher to the next? I am suspicious of instructors holding back information to keep the student as a permanent income. The sooner people realise this is going on the faster they can develop.
> 
> Anyway I definitely felt that something was missing and information was being held back.



It was four years until I learned the second form Chum Kiu .
In our lineage after twenty years you are considered a junior master , you probably could try and mimic the movements of the whole system in one year , but you will have no stance and no power and thus your speed , power and reflex will be *****.
All Wing Chun power comes from the stance and the stance doesn't just happen over night , it takes many years.

Have you considered that maybe knowledge is not being held back , but the extent of the instructors knowledge has been reached.

Someone who runs a class like the way you say he does sounds very dodgy to me and just maybe his experience and credentials are not what they should be.


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## noob (Feb 18, 2012)

It seems there are several arguments then. Experienced people who believe that it takes a long time and experienced people who think it can been learned in a year. Then the question is who to trust. I would be more inclined to trust someone who, first of all, skimmed over ALL the drills and forms, giving the students a taste of the entire system first (if they asked), and only then go right back to the beginning and perfect them to develop the power you speak of.

I wouldn't see this as a problem. But when an instructor argues and says he can't "reveal" those inner secrets yet, it really does make you wonder if you're being taken for a ride. 

I just find it really odd how experts disagree about everything. One Wing Chun expert says one thing and the other totally disagrees. Now this is a worrying disagreement where some say "x" amount of time and some say "y". 

What are your thoughts?

I at least want to be impressed from every lesson and at least enjoy it. It just wasnt happening in that place.



http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/making-a-monster/


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## WCman1976 (Feb 18, 2012)

I agree with mook jong man. You can learn all the forms inside of a month. Learning them is simply a matter of memorizing the proper sequence of techniques. Doing them RIGHT is another thing completely.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2012)

Despite what some marketing will have you believe Wing Chun is not simple.

The techniques appear outwardly to be very simple , but underneath the surface several things are going on at once.
Aspects such as the proper focusing of forward force , cultivation of a deep level of relaxation in key muscle groups , and skill in chi sau take many , many years to perfect.


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## WCman1976 (Feb 18, 2012)

I didn't say the style was simple. I was agreeing with a point you made earlier that learning all the forms is easy, but actually doing them properly is the hard part. I've gone to plenty of schools where, once you memorize the order of the techniques, the teacher will say, "All right, you are ready for the next form." Not so with wing chun.


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## noob (Feb 18, 2012)

Argument taken into consideration. Thanks for all your input again.

BUT instructors should not have any problem demonstrating more advanced techniques or at least letting people have a go, otherwise it really does make you wonder if you're being taken for a  ride.

Saying it takes so long is also an excellent customer retention and profit strategy, keeps students for years, and achieves "lock-in".

But hey I'm out of this thread now. Thanks for your help. Hopefully the new class will be better 

It would nice to be at least impressed, satisfied, and worked-out properly after each lesson.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2012)

noob said:


> It seems there are several arguments then. Experienced people who believe that it takes a long time and experienced people who think it can been learned in a year. Then the question is who to trust. I would be more inclined to trust someone who, first of all, skimmed over ALL the drills and forms, giving the students a taste of the entire system first (if they asked), and only then go right back to the beginning and perfect them to develop the power you speak of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## noob (Feb 18, 2012)

> It was unfortunate that you happened to find such a crappy school , don't waste anymore time and money there.
> Chalk it up to experience , cut your losses , and hopefully your next school will be a good one whatever style it is.



Will do thanks Mook Jong Man. Next one's still gonna be Wing Chun.


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## Nabakatsu (Feb 18, 2012)

Good choice


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## bully (Feb 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> What he is describing isn't 'banter', we have that in the MMA classes and it's certainly not what is going on in this guys classes.



No mate I agree, I was wondering if he was from the UK as some see it as banter, I don't. Bloody internet and my inability to get my point across ;-)

Bullying is often disguised as "banter" in the UK, which is what I sort of asking.

Im just digging myself a hole here....:uhyeah:

Edit, also in regard to the what you can be taught in a year. I still think SLT only, but....I used to watch my seniors doing CK and BJ etc and that spurred me on.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

bully said:


> No mate I agree, I was wondering if he was from the UK as some see it as banter, I don't. Bloody internet and my inability to get my point across ;-)
> 
> Bullying is often disguised as "banter" in the UK, which is what I sort of asking.
> 
> ...



I know what you mean though, it's the sort of thing that always ends with 'can't you take a joke' after they've said something offensive. In our club we tend not to have banter as such but we do have a good amount of craic! We all share the same sense of humour...warped lol!


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## noob (Feb 19, 2012)

You are correct bully. Banter is just another word for abuse. Kind of like tax is just another word for robbery, and war another name for mass murder.

For some reason when the names of these words are changed it makes it acceptable.


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2012)

noob said:


> You are correct bully. Banter is just another word for abuse. Kind of like tax is just another word for robbery, and war another name for mass murder.
> 
> For some reason when the names of these words are changed it makes it acceptable.



I disagree, banter is banter, nothing wrong with that but when bullies are brought to book they often excuse what they are doing as banter, it gives banter a bad name. Bullying is bullying, no excuses, no reasons, it's unacceptable.
Tax is hardly robbery either, if you want running water, sewerage, fire brigades etc etc you need to pay  for them and taxes is how. If you are attacked or invaded then war is hardly an excuse to commit mass murder. Life isn't that black or white.


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## geezer (Feb 19, 2012)

Banter? It all depends on how it's meant and how it's taken. My old training partner used to be the master of banter. Of course he was more overweight and balding than I, but man he could lay it on, non-stop... especially when the gang would go out for a beer after class. More than once he ripped into me so ruthlessly that I practically blew my drink out my nose and laughed myself out of my barstool. If it's meant in good fun, that's how I take it. If not... well then that's another story.


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2012)

geezer said:


> Banter? It all depends on how it's meant and how it's taken. My old training partner used to be the master of banter. Of course he was more overweight and balding than I, but man he could lay it on, non-stop... especially when the gang would go out for a beer after class. More than once he ripped into me so ruthlessly that I practically blew my drink out my nose and laughed myself out of my barstool. If it's meant in good fun, that's how I take it. If not... well then that's another story.



I'm suspect that when we say banter we are talking about different things according to our nationality.

British   http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/banter_1   "_conversation which is funny and not serious_"

We don't insult each other, it's just not talking seriously.


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## noob (Feb 19, 2012)

> I disagree, banter is banter, nothing wrong with that but when bullies are brought to book they often excuse what they are doing as banter, it gives banter a bad name. Bullying is bullying, no excuses, no reasons, it's unacceptable.


Yes I agree with the first bit, it gives banter a band name (I thought banter meant something different).  I don't find insulting people funny. I guess some people think it's funny to laugh about others misfortune. People seem to use banter as an excuse to be mean. I've heard it loads: "you fat bald loser", "it's just banter", "it's funny". So its like disguised abuse in the name of banter when its not banter.



> Tax is hardly robbery either, if you want running water, sewerage, fire brigades etc etc you need to pay for them and taxes is how. If you are attacked or invaded then war is hardly an excuse to commit mass murder. Life isn't that black or white.




Someone taking your belongings without consent and threatening to lock you away if you refuse to comply is robbery. Here's the definition of robbery:The felonious taking of personal property from someone using force or the threat of force. Now that is income tax. 

Sorry but remove the life-long brainwashing and indoctrination and that's what it is.


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2012)

noob said:


> Yes I agree with the first bit, it gives banter a band name. I don't find insulting people funny. I guess some people think it's funny to laugh about others misfortune. People seem to use banter as an excuse to be mean. I've heard it loads: "you fat bald loser", "it's just banter", "it's funny". So its like disguised abuse in the name of banter when its not banter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually the legal definition of theft in the UK is 'dishonestly appropriating property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.' With your income tax you receive services in return, you have sewerage, water, street lights, rubbish collection, protection of the police and fire service, roads, defence, education and a lot more so you are hardly being robbed are you, in fact you receive far more for your money than the income tax is worth that you pay.


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## noob (Feb 19, 2012)

http://www.poeticexpressions.co.uk/POEMS/The Tax Poem.htm


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2012)

noob said:


>



To discuss this you'd be better to go across to the Study and start a new thread.


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## noob (Feb 19, 2012)

I was trying to make a point.


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## wtxs (Feb 21, 2012)

noob said:


> I was trying to make a point.



Point acknowledged ... that you may had been lied to.  As recommended, remove yourself from that setting and try to find another more reputable school.


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