# I need advice.



## Ivo (Nov 6, 2018)

Hello everyone! 

My name is Ivo and I come from Europe.

I've been training Capoiera for over 5 years. I stopped training 2 years ago because I didn't feel any joy coming from my training. My way of thinking was wrong and I didn't understand what martial arts is. On every training I avoided facing my weaknesses and didn't make any progress at all. 
Now I've been thinking about it a lot and i finally realised what is the purpose of training and martial arts - to master my own body. 
Meanwhile while searching inspiration in life I've become and exchange student and I'm currently studying in a highschool in Taiwan.
Having that opportunity of staying in Asia, the motherland of martial arts I want to come back to training martial arts, although don't know what to choose.

Now, to my question:

As I've been learning Capoiera I realized it's not really that effective if it comes to sparring with a person who uses another style, since it's very different in terms of positioning.

I'm interested in learning a martial art which is actually helpful with fighting/defending.

Here, in Taiwan I can only choose between Kung Fu and Karate. Can anyone share their thoughts about these two?

Thanks in advance


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2018)

Some times you just have to really learn how to work those techniques


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## Hanzou (Nov 7, 2018)

Ivo said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> My name is Ivo and I come from Europe.
> 
> ...



There are multiple Bjj and MMA schools in Taiwan. Why can't you go to any of those? I would HIGHLY recommend Bjj to compliment your Capoeira skills. You will find that the leg based chokes and various types of guards work extremely well with the movements found in Capoeira.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 7, 2018)

Hi Ivo and welcome to the forum.  I train in Kyokushin Karate so I may have some bias but I firmly believe that the style you choose is less important than the quality of the instruction of the schools near your location.   The instructor and students you are training with are more important than the curriculum itself.   Ultimately you are looking to learn how to punch, kick and block.....etc. So make sure you find s place you are comfortable at and cares about you as a student that will develop.  If the places near you have a free trial that is the best way to find out if that is the right school for you.  Good luck.


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## Hanzou (Nov 7, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some times you just have to really learn how to work those techniques



The first two vids were nonsense. Calling them "real fights" is laughable.


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## Ivo (Nov 7, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> There are multiple Bjj and MMA schools in Taiwan. Why can't you go to any of those? I would HIGHLY recommend Bjj to compliment your Capoeira skills. You will find that the leg based chokes and various types of guards work extremely well with the movements found in Capoeira.



It's mostly because of my location. Thanks for the answer!


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## Hanzou (Nov 7, 2018)

Ivo said:


> It's mostly because of my location. Thanks for the answer!



In that case, I would recommend a karate school. That will develop your hand techniques, and balance out the kicks found in Capoeira.


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## FriedRice (Nov 7, 2018)

Easy way to beat a Capoeiraista is to knockout the guy playing the music and they won't be able to fight after that.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The first two vids were nonsense. Calling them "real fights" is laughable.


I posted them because it shows people working the techniques found in the system.


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## Hanzou (Nov 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I posted them because it shows people working the techniques found in the system.



Meh, I wouldn't consider that an example of the technique working. I could do all kinds of whacky stuff to someone if they aren't allowed to punch or grab me.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 8, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I could do all kinds of whacky stuff to someone if they aren't allowed to punch or grab me.


The same techniques that you call whacky are the same techniques that were used in the MMA (which allowed people to punch and grab)


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## Hanzou (Nov 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The same techniques that you call whacky are the same techniques that were used in the MMA (which allowed people to punch and grab)



A whopping three times in the nearly 30 year history of MMA.

Whoop Dee doo.


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## DaveB (Nov 8, 2018)

You can find a bunch of martial arts all over the world,  but if you're in Taiwan there are things you can only get there, at least in terms of learning directly from Grand Masters.

I would look for Any type of Crane kungfu. In particular I know Calling Crane is based out there and Tiger-crane through the Nam Yang Pugilistic School.


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## Hanzou (Nov 8, 2018)

Yeah, dont bother with Kung Fu. It'll take you backwards instead of forward.


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## BrendanF (Nov 8, 2018)

Unless Shuai Jiao.

Perhaps J Wang Laoshi could provide some assistance.


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## Hanzou (Nov 8, 2018)

BrendanF said:


> Unless Shuai Jiao.
> 
> Perhaps J Wang Laoshi could provide some assistance.



Shuai Jiao is considered Kung Fu?

Yeah that would be a good choice if available. Crane Kung Fu or something similar? Not so much.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 8, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> A whopping three times in the nearly 30 year history of MMA.
> 
> Whoop Dee doo.


It doesn't matter how many times it was done.  They pulled it off.  It shows that the technique is usable and can be effective.  A person doesn't just stumble into doing random capoeira techniques.

How many times has the "Oblique kick" been done in the history of MMA.  How many times was it done before Jon Jones?   People who can pull of techniques like that are highly skilled and they don't just stumble into it.



Hanzou said:


> Yeah, dont bother with Kung Fu. It'll take you backwards instead of forward.


It just depends on how you train.  You either train to use the techniques or you don't.  If you don't train to actually use the techniques in a fight, then don't be disappointed when you suck in a fight.   But if you train to actually use the techniques in a fight, then you'll be able to do the techniques with little problems.  This is something I know for a fact with my own training.  



Hanzou said:


> Shuai Jiao is considered Kung Fu?


Yes it's the grappling component of kung fu.


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## Hanzou (Nov 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> It doesn't matter how many times it was done.  They pulled it off.  It shows that the technique is usable and can be effective.  A person doesn't just stumble into doing random capoeira techniques.



You do understand that those so-called "Capoeiristas" aren't only trained in Capoeira when they enter a MMA ring right?



> How many times has the "Oblique kick" been done in the history of MMA.  How many times was it done before Jon Jones?   People who can pull of techniques like that are highly skilled and they don't just stumble into it.



The "Oblique Kick" isn't unique to Capoeira, and Jon Jones is coming from a completely different martial background when he's applying it.




> It just depends on how you train.  You either train to use the techniques or you don't.  If you don't train to actually use the techniques in a fight, then don't be disappointed when you suck in a fight.   But if you train to actually use the techniques in a fight, then you'll be able to do the techniques with little problems.  This is something I know for a fact with my own training.



My point is that dealing with a Kung Fu school is more than likely not in his best interest. Not only is there a lot of BS in TCMA, but there's also a lot of schools that do ridiculous stuff like disallowing sparring or focus far too much on forms and tradition. TS wants to learn effective fighting techniques, not waste more time learning to dance.

Take your experience for example; You got tossed out of your Kung Fu school because you were focused on the actual fighting art. You think TS wants to deal with that potential pitfall? A better option would be for him to simply do Kyokushin Karate or TKD. At least there he would somewhat know what he's getting into.



> Yes it's the grappling component of kung fu.



Isn't that Chin-Na?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 8, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You do understand that those so-called "Capoeiristas" aren't only trained in Capoeira when they enter a MMA ring right?


Talking about Capoeira techniques whatever else they know doesn't have anything to do with a capoeira technique.



Hanzou said:


> he "Oblique Kick" isn't unique to Capoeira, and Jon Jones is coming from a completely different martial background when he's applying it.


I'm not referring to the Capoeira here. because the oblique kick has been present in many TMA systems for a long time now.. It is the one technique that no one else in MMA has been able to use effectively.  Other's have tried but they just can't get it right.



Hanzou said:


> My point is that dealing with a Kung Fu school is more than likely not in his best interest. Not only is there a lot of BS in TCMA, but there's also a lot of schools that do ridiculous stuff like disallowing sparring or focus far too much on forms and tradition.


It's all about how you train. "BS and disallowing sparring is secondary stuff it doesn't have to stop the way you train."  There is a thing call practice outside of school.



Hanzou said:


> Take your experience for example; You got tossed out of your Kung Fu school because you were focused on the actual fighting art.


Very true, but it doesn't stop the way I train. You also can't compare what happened to me as the norm for TMA..  I'm pretty sure my situation was unique.



Hanzou said:


> Isn't that Chin-Na?


Chin Na is a grappling component as well but it deals with joint locks (more accurately joint destruction.)  This is a better definition of it than what we see in Demos "Chin Na or Qinna is a term describing techniques used in the Chinese martial arts that control, lock or break an opponents joints or muscles/tendons so he cannot move, thus neutralizing their fighting ability."  "*Chin means to seize or trap*, *na means to lock or break* and while those actions are very often executed in that order (trap then lock), the two actions can also be performed distinctly in training and self defence."  source:China Na - the martial art of joint control, breaking and locking.

You often see it done in a slow demo manner because it's easy to accidentally injure your training partner.  The entire goal with Chin Na is to quickly break then control the broken joint.  Considering the speed and the intensity of real fighting, I just don't see how someone can avoid not breaking or seriously damaging the attackers joint.  I know I think of wrist grabs.  If I grab someone's wrist then I'm going to do my best to try to pop the hand right off the arm.  I don't want to try to be gentle to control my attacker.  It's better that I dislocate that hand wrist and separate it from the arm. That way I can have better control and my attacker will be minus a usable hand.  

If you do Chin Na slow in a fight then you'll never be able to get the locks to work.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 8, 2018)

Ivo said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> My name is Ivo and I come from Europe.
> 
> ...


Hi Ivo,

It is unfortunate that your experience with capoeira left you feeling as if something was lacking.  Quality of training, as well as the degree that training is focused on the game of capoeira in the roda, vs. training to actually fight, can vary a lot from school to school.  Many schools train for the roda, and often have very friendly games.  They often do not train for a rough roda, nor to fight.  

Be aware though, when trained appropriately, capoeira can produce some very capable fighters.

Everyone needs to find the method that works best for them.  All the best to you in your training.


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## BrendanF (Nov 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yes it's the grappling component of kung fu.



No - there are a few different styles of Shuai Jiao.  They are discrete schools - not components of other arts.

Shuai jiao - Wikipedia

FYI - John Wang was a disciple of Chang Tung Sheng.


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## DaveB (Nov 9, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You do understand that those so-called "Capoeiristas" aren't only trained in Capoeira when they enter a MMA ring right?
> 
> The "Oblique Kick" isn't unique to Capoeira, and Jon Jones is coming from a completely different martial background when he's applying it.
> 
> ...



I've said this before, but despite having no sensible counter argument, people like yourself just carry on putting feelings ahead of the facts.

Once more, training is not the martial art.
Training is skill and attribute development. 
Training is what determines fighting ability. 
Training varies from school to school, never mind art to art.

In 20 years of being in and around martial arts I've encountered only one martial arts school that doesn't spar. 
I've encountered only one that could be called a McDojo.

Now maybe things are different here in the UK to the US or wherever you may be, but I'd wager your impression of "BS in TCMA" is based more on YouTube videos and forums than anything that could be considered evidence.

If you've never trained with a Southern crane school you have no idea about either the content of the arts nor the common cultural emphasis in their training. 

If you really want to learn only what is common to combat sports all he need do is check for schools that do Sanshou 

The guy is in a place far from home. What is the point in visiting the other side of the world to do the same stuff he could do in his own back yard. 

My Advice to the OP: take the opportunity to experience as much as you can from as wide and unusual a variety of sources as you can. 
The more you experience, the broader your perspective will be, the broader your skill set will be, the better your foundation.

After you get back home a Taekwondo school will be the best way to learn to understand how to apply your Capoeira.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 9, 2018)

BrendanF said:


> No - there are a few different styles of Shuai Jiao.  They are discrete schools - not components of other arts.
> 
> Shuai jiao - Wikipedia
> 
> FYI - John Wang was a disciple of Chang Tung Sheng.


Does Shuai Jiao have punching or kicking techniques?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I've said this before, but despite having no sensible counter argument, people like yourself just carry on putting feelings ahead of the facts.
> 
> Once more, training is not the martial art.
> Training is skill and attribute development.
> ...


Exactly.  It's no different than anything else in life.  I guess some people make it too hard.   There are so many people who jump from system to system without understanding this and all that they end up doing learning different system and never knowing how to actually use the techniques.  They fail to understand that it's not the system, it's the training.


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## Hanzou (Nov 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I've said this before, but despite having no sensible counter argument, people like yourself just carry on putting feelings ahead of the facts.
> 
> Once more, training is not the martial art.
> Training is skill and attribute development.
> ...



And once again you and Jowga simply refuse to get it.

For many people, how they train is largely influenced by how the art is trained within their school. If their teacher is training them a certain way, there's a high chance that that's going to be how they train the art itself, inside the school and outside the school. Not everyone is going to be spending time looking for the martial aspect of their art if it isn't taught within the school. And frankly there are arts that simply push bad principles that can't be transitioned to sound principles no matter how much extra study you do in attempting to transform the art into a fighting art.

Again, I use Jowga's example as a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about. His instructor tossed him out of his school because he was sparring too much and trying to make his art more fighting oriented, while his "sifu" wanted the school more focused on forms and whatever. Jowga decided to continue pushing his art in a more fighting direction, but we're lying to ourselves if we don't acknowledge that most people would have simply stopped sparring and did as their "sifu" commanded.

Now, me saying that TCMA is full of BS schools may have offended some, but that's simply the reality. There isn't much quality control within that particular group of MA, so you could find a very good school, or a very bad school, and there's no way to tell the difference until you're getting pummeled by someone. I'm also very skeptical of the effectiveness of kata/form practice in terms of developing martial skill. As I said, I would recommend the TS simply search out a school within a group of MA that has a high level of quality control, and is simply more fight-oriented by design instead of some archaic traditional system that's more than likely going to lead him right back to where he is now. If you're seeking to learn about Chinese culture and some archaic fighting principles, by all means, go learn how to fight like a bird. If you're trying to learn how to fight in the modern context, TS would be better served finding a modern system designed for actual fighting.

And again, Sanshou/Sanda, and Shuai Jiao would fit the bill just fine.


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## Hanzou (Nov 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Talking about Capoeira techniques whatever else they know doesn't have anything to do with a capoeira technique



Actually it does. A MMA fighter well versed in striking and grappling can afford to do crazy stuff to win fights. See Anderson Silva and Jon Jones who do wacky stuff in the octagon because they dominate fights and are highly skilled in multiple MAs. 



> I'm not referring to the Capoeira here.



Then why are you bringing it up?



> It's all about how you train. "BS and disallowing sparring is secondary stuff it doesn't have to stop the way you train."  There is a thing call practice outside of school.



As I said before, for many martial artists, the only place where they can train is their school. In my case for example, I never had the space or the partner to effectively practice Bjj alone in my house, so instead I spent additional time in the training hall which had extended hours for practice. Now imagine if my school didn't offer that training time, or the school looked down on sparring or fighting? That would retard my development.



> Very true, but it doesn't stop the way I train. You also can't compare what happened to me as the norm for TMA..  I'm pretty sure my situation was unique.



Not really. I've heard of plenty of Kung Fu practitioners who have gotten the axe because they cross-trained in other systems, or were too focused on fighting instead of what their teacher thought their art was supposed to be like.




> Chin Na is a grappling component as well but it deals with joint locks (more accurately joint destruction.)  This is a better definition of it than what we see in Demos "Chin Na or Qinna is a term describing techniques used in the Chinese martial arts that control, lock or break an opponents joints or muscles/tendons so he cannot move, thus neutralizing their fighting ability."  "*Chin means to seize or trap*, *na means to lock or break* and while those actions are very often executed in that order (trap then lock), the two actions can also be performed distinctly in training and self defence."  source:China Na - the martial art of joint control, breaking and locking.
> 
> You often see it done in a slow demo manner because it's easy to accidentally injure your training partner.  The entire goal with Chin Na is to quickly break then control the broken joint.  Considering the speed and the intensity of real fighting, I just don't see how someone can avoid not breaking or seriously damaging the attackers joint.  I know I think of wrist grabs.  If I grab someone's wrist then I'm going to do my best to try to pop the hand right off the arm.  I don't want to try to be gentle to control my attacker.  It's better that I dislocate that hand wrist and separate it from the arm. That way I can have better control and my attacker will be minus a usable hand.
> 
> If you do Chin Na slow in a fight then you'll never be able to get the locks to work.



My question is that if you're never able to practice the movements slow and deliberately, and at full speed/power, how would you ever be able to apply it when someone is trying to punch or kick you?


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## Hanzou (Nov 9, 2018)

BrendanF said:


> No - there are a few different styles of Shuai Jiao.  They are discrete schools - not components of other arts.
> 
> Shuai jiao - Wikipedia
> 
> FYI - John Wang was a disciple of Chang Tung Sheng.



Yeah, that's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.


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## DaveB (Nov 9, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> And once again you and Jowga simply refuse to get it.
> 
> For many people, how they train is largely influenced by how the art is trained within their school. If their teacher is training them a certain way, there's a high chance that that's going to be how they train the art itself, inside the school and outside the school. Not everyone is going to be spending time looking for the martial aspect of their art if it isn't taught within the school. And frankly there are arts that simply push bad principles that can't be transitioned to sound principles no matter how much extra study you do in attempting to transform the art into a fighting art.
> 
> ...



If I'm the one who doesn't get it, how come nothing you wrote actually countered my point?

You are writing about a fantasy that you have in your head.
"For many people", "If their teacher trains them a certain way it's indicative of how the art trains,"

This is all BS supposition based on an impression you have. As I said in my experience Schools that don't spar are the exception not the rule. I've never encountered anything to disprove that. 

The idea that the way one school trains indicates how the art trains is disproven by the wing chun forum. Each art brings it's own traditions, but whether they are good or bad there is a world of scope outside of those traditions. It is foolish to reduce any art to it's stereotypes.


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## Hanzou (Nov 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> If I'm the one who doesn't get it, how come nothing you wrote actually countered my point?
> 
> You are writing about a fantasy that you have in your head.
> "For many people", "If their teacher trains them a certain way it's indicative of how the art trains,"
> ...



Yeah, you probably should have quoted the entire sentence:



> For many people, how they train is largely influenced by how the art is trained *within their school*.



It doesn't matter how every single school in the art trains if the school close to you happens to be the school that doesn't spar, and is more concerned about looking pretty or adhering to tradition than actually learning how to fight. Even if they have sparring, it can be sparring within a bubble if the school disallows hard sparring, disallows cross-training, limits sparring to a few times a week or even once a month, spend too much time on forms, or disallows bringing in outside influences to enhance the sparring experience. Sherif Bey had plenty of sparring in his Hung Ga school, and he still got tooled by some amateur street fighter.

Why? Because he was operating under bad principles.


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## BrendanF (Nov 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Does Shuai Jiao have punching or kicking techniques?



I believe so - but i'm no expert on SC.

John Wang and his older brother developed Combat SC from Chang's traditional version - I think it includes striking.

Hopefully he'll chime in.


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## DaveB (Nov 9, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, you probably should have quoted the entire sentence:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My point is that all this is "if, if, if".

Put all those ifs on an Mms school and it would suck just as much. 

If your school is crud, then your school is crud, it doesn't matter if it's MMA, kung fu or whatever. 

The reverse is also true: a good school is a good school regardless of the style.


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## Hanzou (Nov 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> My point is that all this is "if, if, if".
> 
> Put all those ifs on an Mms school and it would suck just as much.
> 
> ...



Again, there is a higher level of quality control in Bjj, Judo, Boxing, Sanda, MMA, Muay Thai etc. because there is a competitive standard in place. There is no such standard in TCMAs, and some schools get upset when you have the audacity to want to spar, cross train, or consider adding other style's techniques to your system. That sort of environment allows all sorts of crazy myths, legends and nonsense to flourish.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 9, 2018)

BrendanF said:


> No - there are a few different styles of Shuai Jiao.  They are discrete schools - not components of other arts.
> 
> Shuai jiao - Wikipedia
> 
> FYI - John Wang was a disciple of Chang Tung Sheng.


Shui Jiao may be it's own style, but Kung Fu isn't an art, it's an umbrella term for CMA. So styles within that umbrella of CMA that are grappling focused, could be considered the grappling part of Kung Fu.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 9, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Not everyone is going to be spending time looking for the martial aspect of their art if it isn't taught within the school.


People who fall into this category are ones who really don't want to actually know how to fight using Martial arts.  Most people take martial arts for exercise and not to learn how to fight and that's why they don't push to learn about the martial aspect of the system.  Those who actually want to learn how to fight will always take the extra step and venture into sparring.  



Hanzou said:


> but we're lying to ourselves if we don't acknowledge that most people would have simply stopped sparring and did as their "sifu" commanded.


 Most people I know who want to know how to fight make that a goal regardless of what a teacher says. Most people who are looking for Status of being sifu or "cool martial arts guy / gal" are more likely to stop and follow the teacher's wishes to not fight.

There will always be resistance when someone's goal doesn't line up with your own, which is why you and I are often at odds.  It's not a bad thing, it's just a human thing.  If I really want to learn how to use Kung Fu in a fight then that's my goal.  If my teacher goal is interferes with mine then I'll quit and find another teacher.   In my on case, I just got kicked out, but my dedication to Jow Ga brought 1 thing out to light.  Kung Fu is bigger than any  on Sifu. 

I have never had difficulty in knowing which schools actually cared about being able to fight.   The only difficulty I have ever had with  Martial Arts was knowing who was teaching crap.  Now that I know more about martial arts techniques in general and fighting.  It's much easier for me to spot schools that are serious about learning how to use their techniques.











If I saw this I would walk away.  Not because of what I see, but because of what I don't hear.  COACHING,   Saying SEPARATE and GET ON YOUR FEET, is not coaching.  No corrections are being made for serious mistakes.  Make a serious mistake in my class and I'll stop the sparring to point it out, while it's fresh on your mind.







BrendanF said:


> John Wang and his older brother developed Combat SC from Chang's traditional version - I think it includes striking


No need to add.  I have a good idea of how he trains and he has made it clear on how he has learned, so there would be striking in what he teaches, but that may be exception and not the norm. For example,  GPSeymour would be the exception and not the norm for his system.  Anything that these two guys do would be to expand the system in a way that is different from what is normally taught.


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## DaveB (Nov 10, 2018)

Note the world


Hanzou said:


> Again, there is a higher level of quality control in Bjj, Judo, Boxing, Sanda, MMA, Muay Thai etc. because there is a competitive standard in place. There is no such standard in TCMAs, and some schools get upset when you have the audacity to want to spar, cross train, or consider adding other style's techniques to your system. That sort of environment allows all sorts of crazy myths, legends and nonsense to flourish.



And again, your spreading myths and rumours about non competitive ma is my issue, especially when you can find TCMA with competitive training standards as well.

Instead of trashing what you don't know why not just promote what you do know?


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> People who fall into this category are ones who really don't want to actually know how to fight using Martial arts.  Most people take martial arts for exercise and not to learn how to fight and that's why they don't push to learn about the martial aspect of the system.  Those who actually want to learn how to fight will always take the extra step and venture into sparring.



Hence my point that it would be in TS' best interests to simply find a MA school that is based around learning how to fight, and whose martial aspect is apparent and available on the surface. For example, I read a thread in the Internal Arts forum about a guy who is digging through Taiji for fighting applications. In Bjj, we don't need to do any digging, it's directly taught to us and we drill it constantly.



> Most people I know who want to know how to fight make that a goal regardless of what a teacher says. Most people who are looking for Status of being sifu or "cool martial arts guy / gal" are more likely to stop and follow the teacher's wishes to not fight.
> 
> There will always be resistance when someone's goal doesn't line up with your own, which is why you and I are often at odds.  It's not a bad thing, it's just a human thing.  If I really want to learn how to use Kung Fu in a fight then that's my goal.  If my teacher goal is interferes with mine then I'll quit and find another teacher.   In my on case, I just got kicked out, but my dedication to Jow Ga brought 1 thing out to light.  Kung Fu is bigger than any  on Sifu.
> 
> I have never had difficulty in knowing which schools actually cared about being able to fight.   The only difficulty I have ever had with  Martial Arts was knowing who was teaching crap.  Now that I know more about martial arts techniques in general and fighting.  It's much easier for me to spot schools that are serious about learning how to use their techniques.



And that's my second point: I don't have to worry about getting kicked out of a Bjj gym because of desire to learn how to use my skill in a fight, or is serious about learning to use their techniques, because that's one of the main purposes of the system. What happened to you is almost exclusively a feature of TCMA.


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Note the world
> 
> 
> And again, your spreading myths and rumours about non competitive ma is my issue, especially when you can find TCMA with competitive training standards as well.
> ...



Where's the myths and rumors?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> For example, I read a thread in the Internal Arts forum about a guy who is digging through Taiji for fighting applications. In Bjj, we don't need to do any digging, it's directly taught to us and we drill it constantly.


There is no difference in these two. Both are the same process.  


Here's the process that everyone want to learn how to fight goes through, regardless of if they are in a school or learning on their own.  The only real changes is going to be the degree in which they do #3 -#5

TMA Application Process
1. Learn the technique
2. Drill the technique
3. Learn to apply the technique through attempted use in quality/ effective sparring
4. Review and analyze your efforts, failures, successes, plans and dig for better understanding. Figure out the why and how. *("digging" occurs here)*
5. Make necessary changes and continue to apply the technique through attempted use in quality/ effective sparring

BJJ Application Process
1. Learn the technique
2. Drill the technique 
3. Learn to apply the technique through attempted use in quality/ effective sparring
4. Review and analyze your efforts, failures, successes, plans and dig for better understanding. Figure out the why and how. *("digging" occurs here)*
5. Make necessary changes and continue to apply the technique through attempted use in quality/ effective sparring

Muay Thai Application Process
1. Learn the technique
2. Drill the technique 
3. Learn to apply the technique through attempted use in quality/ effective sparring
4. Review and analyze your efforts, failures, successes, plans and dig for better understanding. Figure out the why and how. *("digging" occurs here)*
5. Make necessary changes and continue to apply the technique through attempted use in quality/ effective sparring



Hanzou said:


> And that's my second point: I don't have to worry about getting kicked out of a Bjj gym because of desire to learn how to use my skill in a fight, or is serious about learning to use their techniques, because that's one of the main purposes of the system. What happened to you is almost exclusively a feature of TCMA.


 You can still get kicked out of BJJ gyms for other reasons.  My situation was probably unique to me and not representative of TMA as a whole.  
1. How many TMA school are there in the World?
2. How many TMA student have trained in the school or are training in the school, since it's creation
3. How many TMA schools have kick a student out because of their interest to learn how to use the system to fight?

You'll find more cases of people accidentally shooting themselves than you will a TMA student getting kicked out for wanting to learn how to use the system for fighting.

Using my experience as a reason not to do TMA is a horrible reason for not training in a TMA.  It's even more unreasonable to think that the exact same thing is going to happen to someone else.


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> There is no difference in these two. Both are the same process.
> 
> 
> Here's the process that everyone want to learn how to fight goes through, regardless of if they are in a school or learning on their own.  The only real changes is going to be the degree in which they do #3 -#5
> ...



If you're learning the technique through a form/kata instead of direct application, it's extremely different. ESPECIALLY if your instructor has a negative attitude towards sparring and just wants to teach the form.



> You can still get kicked out of BJJ gyms for other reasons.  My situation was probably unique to me and not representative of TMA as a whole.
> 1. How many TMA school are there in the World?
> 2. How many TMA student have trained in the school or are training in the school, since it's creation
> 3. How many TMA schools have kick a student out because of their interest to learn how to use the system to fight?



I've heard of similar situations occurring in other TMAs. Mainly opposition to cross-training and sparring practice. What happened to you didn't surprise me one bit.

Frankly the only way you can get kicked out of a Bjj gym is if you're a rude jerk during instruction (interrupting the teacher while his giving instruction) or you purposely hurt your training partners. You're not going to get kicked out because you went to a Judo gym the other day and wanted to practice a few Judo throws during rolling.



> You'll find more cases of people accidentally shooting themselves than you will a TMA student getting kicked out for wanting to learn how to use the system for fighting.



Don't tens of thousands of people accidentally shoot themselves every year?



> Using my experience as a reason not to do TMA is a horrible reason for not training in a TMA.  It's even more unreasonable to think that the exact same thing is going to happen to someone else.



I'm not just using your experience, I'm also using the internal flaws of TMA practice as well.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If you're learning the technique through a form/kata instead of direct application, it's extremely different. ESPECIALLY if your instructor has a negative attitude towards sparring and just wants to teach the form.


 It's not different.  It goes through the same process.  It just takes longer because you don't have the coaching there to point out the mistakes.  For me I had to be my own coach.  There was no one telling me where I was missing opportunities.  I had to separate my sparring into 3 train of thoughts.  Study, coach, and fight.  Had I had a coach then I could have focus on just the fighting part.  A coach would have picked up on the things I could have studied to improve and could point out my mistakes.   

This is why I showed the videos of sparring where in 2 of the videos you could hear coaching going on.  In the last video, kids were just through punches and kicks and making a lot of mistakes that should have been corrected right there on the spot, starting with stances.  

If the TMA school doesn't coach during sparring then I wouldn't bother training there. While I didn't have my own coaching after I stepped into the instructor's role, I did have some before then.  Not only from my school but from schools that I sparred against. I always made sure those who I trained were also coached.
I would have been all over this as an instructor or coach.  





Sometimes you can let the little mistake go by and then address them after the round, but the big mistakes need to be addressed right away and in front of the class so that the others can learn as well.  This not only helps people to learn but it also helps the students who are watching to identify vulnerabilities. In there opponent.  When you don't have coaching then you need to record your sparring sessions so you can start to identify some of the things that coaches would have been correcting.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> ESPECIALLY if your instructor has a negative attitude towards sparring and just wants to teach the form.


By the way.  This would be a valid reason for leaving a TMA school if your goal is to learn how to actually fight using the techniques.   This is an example of a conflict of interest. Where your goal is to learn how to fight and your Teacher's goal is not to teach students how to fight.

As a student this would be a no win for any system, not just TMA


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not different.  It goes through the same process.  It just takes longer because you don't have the coaching there to point out the mistakes.



Those issues would make them different Jowga. If it takes you 10 years to become decent in a MA versus 2 years, you've wasted an inordinate amount of time just learning the basics. Some people never become decent because as you said, there's no one there to point out their mistakes. Thus, the mistakes compound upon themselves over and over again, and you never actually learn the correct method unless someone comes along to correct your mistakes. 

Sometimes, NO ONE comes along to correct your mistakes and you're just practicing nonsense, and then you go on to teach someone else that same nonsense, and thus we have the watering down of the art itself. Look at the "bunkai" of Kata or Kung Fu forms; Most of it reaches silly territory because there's no real guide to what it actually is. Many people just make stuff up in order to sell books or seminar tickets.


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I've said this before, but despite having no sensible counter argument, people like yourself just carry on putting feelings ahead of the facts.
> 
> Once more, training is not the martial art.
> Training is skill and attribute development.
> ...



That cuts both ways.

So let's say we ignore a system and just suggest a good training module is a school that has a variable record success. Either in competition or self defense.

That way we can include Machidas karate or Alan Orrs kung fu. And still say Ninjitsu is junk.

I would just do it on a case by case basis. Rather than collectively.


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## DaveB (Nov 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That cuts both ways.
> 
> So let's say we ignore a system and just suggest a good training module is a school that has a variable record success. Either in competition or self defense.
> 
> ...



If you mean what I think you do, that you have to take each case/school on its merits, that's all I've really been saying. Not sure how you dismiss Ninjitsu though? I know the history is dubious, but much of the technique I've seen seems sound. 

Potentially the style is a factor in the effectiveness of an individual's use of a martial art, it's just that it's usually a smaller factor because of the ubiquitous nature of fighting techniques. 

If an art has your basic punch then it's potential effectiveness is the same as any other art that includes a punch.

With the obvious exceptions of the magic arts ie no touch/one touch etc, most arts contain enough effective fundamentals to make the training the more relevant factor.

The only exception I can think of is Aikido, because it seems to lack a base of applicable fundamentals, but I'm no expert on it.


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## drop bear (Nov 11, 2018)

DaveB said:


> If you mean what I think you do, that you have to take each case/school on its merits, that's all I've really been saying. Not sure how you dismiss Ninjitsu though? I know the history is dubious, but much of the technique I've seen seems sound.
> 
> Potentially the style is a factor in the effectiveness of an individual's use of a martial art, it's just that it's usually a smaller factor because of the ubiquitous nature of fighting techniques.
> 
> ...



Name a ninjitsu school that has a variable result?

If you can't. Then that really is all of ninjitsu.


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## DaveB (Nov 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Name a ninjitsu school that has a variable result?
> 
> If you can't. Then that really is all of ninjitsu.



No, it means I don't know all Ninjitsu schools in the world or what they aim to achieve in training, I highly doubt it is ring fighting though. 

What habe you seen to label the art as junk?


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2018)

DaveB said:


> No, it means I don't know all Ninjitsu schools in the world or what they aim to achieve in training, I highly doubt it is ring fighting though.
> 
> What habe you seen to label the art as junk?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That cuts both ways.
> 
> So let's say we ignore a system and just suggest a good training module is a school that has a variable record success. Either in competition or self defense.
> 
> ...


100% agree with all that, except the Ninjitsu thing, Not that I disagree, but never being to a ninjitsu school I have no schools to think of case by case on.


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## drop bear (Nov 11, 2018)

DaveB said:


> No, it means I don't know all Ninjitsu schools in the world or what they aim to achieve in training, I highly doubt it is ring fighting though.
> 
> What habe you seen to label the art as junk?



And that is where you go off. It is not about accepting the vague possibility of every method working until you can prove it doesn't.

You use methods that work. Because there is evidence they work.

I am not here to try to validate every martial art. Just to honestly look at what has results and then use those results.

No evidence of working equals junk. So imagine I am thinking about using reiki to cure cancer.

And I look up medical journals and it says the treatment is not supported by science.

I will consider reiki junk. 

Not. Well has science tested every single reiki practitioner on every single patient? No? Then shut up and take my money.


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## drop bear (Nov 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> 100% agree with all that, except the Ninjitsu thing, Not that I disagree, but never being to a ninjitsu school I have no schools to think of case by case on.



When the evidence presents itself I will change my view.


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## DaveB (Nov 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And that is where you go off. It is not about accepting the vague possibility of every method working until you can prove it doesn't.
> 
> You use methods that work. Because there is evidence they work.
> 
> ...



But you don't need to test all reiki because reiki is a method.

My contention is that what you think is testing a method, ie a martial art, is invariably actually a test of an individual's training. 

Effectively your saying heart surgery doesn't work because all the doctors trained at the Quack school of medicine have high mortality rates.

Even that analogy fails to account for all the flaws in your thinking. 

If you wanted to test Ninjitsu in the manner you speak of, you'd need to build a dojo that took expert fight coaches from various disciplines and trained exclusively for MMA to a professional standard.
That is what boxing, just Thai and bjj all get before "proving themselves" in MMA.

But if you did that, the likes of hanzou would say that any victory was down to the other arts that influenced the training or any cross training that may have happened. 

The only other thing would be to place a thousand Ninjitsu students in a variety of self defence situations and count the survival rates.


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2018)

DaveB said:


> But you don't need to test all reiki because reiki is a method.
> 
> My contention is that what you think is testing a method, ie a martial art, is invariably actually a test of an individual's training.
> 
> ...



Or you could just view the source where Ninjas got their training from, which comes from Masaaki Hatsumi or Stephen Hayes.

A fish rots from the head down.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 12, 2018)

Hanzou said:


>


Are we back on the ninja stuff now?


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