# What do you do if someone runs at you with punches?



## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

Hello! I´ve been doing Martial Arts for around 3-4 Years and for the past few months I´ve been doing Muay Thai. What I´ve never learned is what you do if someone comes at you with swinging, wild punches. I´ve tried to google and youtube it but nothing seems to work the way it should. What do you guys think is the best things to do? I told my friend to come at me with swinging punches (with gloves obv) I tried to clinch but that didn't work out so well. What I think is the best thing to do it step to the side if you have enough space and attack. What do you think you can do more?


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## frank raud (Feb 17, 2017)

Morote-gari is your friend.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 17, 2017)

Bart Simpson style? 

I think that there are a number of things that you could do, you try and train many of them so that you're comfortable with more than one answer. 

Getting out of the way is a good idea, but probably way more difficult than it sounds.

Your Muay Thai front kick should outreach his arms. If you plant it in his sternum you could stop that momentum and regain control of the range. At this point, knowing that he's a wild swinger (by the way, if you google "wild swinger", I'm not responsible for your search results), you probably want to fight from very close, otherwise he's just going to come back at you again.

If you were a BJJ/Shootfighter type, which it sounds like you are not, I think you would want to bait him with a high target and then shoot in and take him down from the legs. Then you'd have to be ready to deal with him on the ground, though.

As a striker though, keep in mind that if he's swinging wildly (again..) he is almost definitely leaving himself wide open for your strikes.

There are techniques from a variety of places, but they all require training for that scenario, just like anything else.


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## DanT (Feb 17, 2017)

Try stepping out to the side, towards the persons back, make sure you keep yourself covered when you move and try to counter where you see an opening.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Hello! I´ve been doing Martial Arts for around 3-4 Years and for the past few months I´ve been doing Muay Thai. What I´ve never learned is what you do if someone comes at you with swinging, wild punches. I´ve tried to google and youtube it but nothing seems to work the way it should. What do you guys think is the best things to do? I told my friend to come at me with swinging punches (with gloves obv) I tried to clinch but that didn't work out so well. What I think is the best thing to do it step to the side if you have enough space and attack. What do you think you can do more?



That works.  Also, run away.  Create space.  Etc.

The idea is that you don't stand and wait for the person charging you to do what they want to do.  They have to cover distance and that takes time.  In that time, change the circumstances of the attack.  Their wild charge also commits them to a direction and a velocity.  It is hard to change speed and direction if you're running full-tilt.  So take advantage of that.


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## frank raud (Feb 17, 2017)




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## kuniggety (Feb 17, 2017)

As a BJJ guy, if I can't deescalate the situation, my go to move would be to shoot and do a double leg take down (or single depending on his leg location). From there you have a few options: 1. if it's a hard surface and the take down is nicely done/they don't know how to take it, that might be enough to finish the encounter 2. they're still angry and so you take mount, control, and submit them (joint lock or choke with a choke being preferable against a belligerent person) or 3. mount and rain hell on them with strikes..ie ground and pound.


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Morote-gari is your friend.





ShortBridge said:


> Bart Simpson style?
> 
> I think that there are a number of things that you could do, you try and train many of them so that you're comfortable with more than one answer.
> 
> ...



Yeah the front kick actually never came to my mind  The only problem I have with kicks is that I never can get far enough from my target to actually throw the kick since he constantly runs at me.


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

DanT said:


> Try stepping out to the side, towards the persons back, make sure you keep yourself covered when you move and try to counter where you see an opening.


Yeah that´s what I plan to do if I get in such a situation


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That works.  Also, run away.  Create space.  Etc.
> 
> The idea is that you don't stand and wait for the person charging you to do what they want to do.  They have to cover distance and that takes time.  In that time, change the circumstances of the attack.  Their wild charge also commits them to a direction and a velocity.  It is hard to change speed and direction if you're running full-tilt.  So take advantage of that.


Sounds intressting, do you think that you could explain a bit more of what you mean with changing the circumstances etc?


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

frank raud said:


>


sick


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> As a BJJ guy, if I can't deescalate the situation, my go to move would be to shoot and do a double leg take down (or single depending on his leg location). From there you have a few options: 1. if it's a hard surface and the take down is nicely done/they don't know how to take it, that might be enough to finish the encounter 2. they're still angry and so you take mount, control, and submit them (joint lock or choke with a choke being preferable against a belligerent person) or 3. mount and rain hell on them with strikes..ie ground and pound.


Yeah that actually sounds really good, the thing is that I´m not confident in my BJJ skills so I would prefer to use Muay Thai or something similar


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## marques (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Hello! I´ve been doing Martial Arts for around 3-4 Years and for the past few months I´ve been doing Muay Thai. What I´ve never learned is what you do if someone comes at you with swinging, wild punches. I´ve tried to google and youtube it but nothing seems to work the way it should. What do you guys think is the best things to do? I told my friend to come at me with swinging punches (with gloves obv) I tried to clinch but that didn't work out so well. What I think is the best thing to do it step to the side if you have enough space and attack. What do you think you can do more?


Leg kicks, front kicks or step aside and follow up.

Not easy, but if the timing is quite perfect, stop kicks (knee level) and teep (push kick) are enough to stop the guy. Then you finish as you want. I am not very good at punching, so I will avoid to box against a (wild) boxer. Of course, other people may prefer a different strategy.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 17, 2017)

Lots of options, depending on your skill set, relative sizes, the attackers exact angles, how far away he starts from, etc.

If you're a solid striker, a stop-hit down the center should do the job nicely. Wild swinging punches from long range means a straight  shot should hit him first, with your combined momentum adding to the impact.

Clinching should be easy when someone attacks that way. Heck, it should be almost automatic. From the clinch you can work, knees, elbows, dirty boxing, and takedowns.

Evading will probably require some skill with bobbing and weaving, otherwise a sidestep may take you into the path of a circular punch.

What is happening when you experiment with your friend? Why is clinching not working for you?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Yeah the front kick actually never came to my mind  The only problem I have with kicks is that I never can get far enough from my target to actually throw the kick since he constantly runs at me.


If he starts a couple of steps away, you get the kick in before he makes it in the first time. Once he closes, you can't use it, unless you create new space.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Yeah the front kick actually never came to my mind  The only problem I have with kicks is that I never can get far enough from my target to actually throw the kick since he constantly runs at me.



Systems are generally not the techniques that people think they are. They are timing, range, application, experience. 

I suspect that you have room, but not time. Keep working on it.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2017)

You could always get to the ground, and hope they start punching down.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

marques said:


> Leg kicks, front kicks or step aside and follow up.
> 
> Not easy, but if the timing is quite perfect, stop kicks (knee level) and teep (push kick) are enough to stop the guy. Then you finish as you want. I am not very good at punching, so I will avoid to box a (wild) boxer. Of course, other people may prefer a different strategy.


The stop kick to the knee is one of my favorites, though I admit to questioning its reliability on unpredictable surfaces.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

In NGA, we have a technique called the "Body Block", which works quite well against this sort of insane attack. If the attacker commits that much forward momentum, the Body Block throws our body at their legs (around knee level) to cut them out from under them. It's surprisingly effective - and effectively surprising - for something that looks like a playground technique.


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2017)

Welcome to MT, MorzMP

They're coming to you. It's like pizza delivery and you don't even have to tip.
The punches are wild, swinging. It's like Christmas and you don't even have to wrap presents.

You can bob and weave, slip, sidestep, intercept - maybe throw that bomb of a right cross that you almost killed so and so with.
You can time it, and blast that head butt into his chops as you grab him.
If you're a good body puncher - you might even have a little mercy as you weave.....nah, F him.
If you're a skilled kicker - you're probably going to get charged later, call your lawyer.
Double leg, tackle, whatever. Zen the bastard, make him "one with ground".

Wild, swinging punches means that God loves you.


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In NGA, we have a technique called the "Body Block", which works quite well against this sort of insane attack. If the attacker commits that much forward momentum, the Body Block throws our body at their legs (around knee level) to cut them out from under them. It's surprisingly effective - and effectively surprising - for something that looks like a playground technique.



I've always loved that technique. We even used to use it in tournaments (at feet level rather than knees) No scoring from it, but the look on the other guy's face...priceless.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 17, 2017)

A lot of it depends on your training, which you didn't really tell us a lot about. "Muay Thai for the last few months", isn't really a Muay Thai background. You will be taught what I suggested, assuming you are not self taught. The 3 or 4 years before that...it is working out with your friends or is it training?

"Take him to the ground" is great advice if you're trained to survive doing so, but probably not great advice if you're not. 

I agree with Buka, competence in almost anything would provide a solution to the problem you describe, but if you're trying to construct your own system from YouTube videos, you're taking a chance with whatever strategy you employ.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

Buka said:


> I've always loved that technique. We even used to use it in tournaments (at feet level rather than knees) No scoring from it, but the look on the other guy's face...priceless.


Agreed. I was "the other guy" in one dude's black belt self-defense test. I was giving him a front kick. Mine were pretty fast back then (by NGA standards, anyway). While I'm on one leg, Zach throws a Body Block at my supporting leg and I had to make a little hop to keep him from taking out my knee. I was mighty glad for my breakfall that day.


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## frank raud (Feb 17, 2017)

As Short bridge says, your training background will influence what techniques will work for you. Another possibility would be to duck under a strike and sinking in a standing arm triangle, which could set up either a standing choke or an easy takedown 
Easy for you, not the guy being taken down.


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

marques said:


> Leg kicks, front kicks or step aside and follow up.
> 
> Not easy, but if the timing is quite perfect, stop kicks (knee level) and teep (push kick) are enough to stop the guy. Then you finish as you want. I am not very good at punching, so I will avoid to box against a (wild) boxer. Of course, other people may prefer a different strategy.


Yeah but if I try to do leg kicks I the person throwing wild punches will probably get in some punches while I do a low kick or? Idk


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MT, MorzMP
> 
> They're coming to you. It's like pizza delivery and you don't even have to tip.
> The punches are wild, swinging. It's like Christmas and you don't even have to wrap presents.
> ...


Lmfao best answer ever! Thanks that really helped me out!


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

frank raud said:


> As Short bridge says, your training background will influence what techniques will work for you. Another possibility would be to duck under a strike and sinking in a standing arm triangle, which could set up either a standing choke or an easy takedown
> Easy for you, not the guy being taken down.


Hmm yeah, like I said i prefer using Muay Thai/Boxing since I´m much more confident in that  But thanks


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## ShortBridge (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Yeah but if I try to do leg kicks I the person throwing wild punches will probably get in some punches while I do a low kick or? Idk



If you haven't trained it to the point where you are confident with it, then the answer is probably "yes".


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## yak sao (Feb 17, 2017)

If he's getting inside of your kicking range, throw knee instead keeping your hands up to cover your face and then drive right down the middle with  punches


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## kuniggety (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Yeah that actually sounds really good, the thing is that I´m not confident in my BJJ skills so I would prefer to use Muay Thai or something similar



In MT, you would use a teep to create distance and then destroy them with a round house. If they get close, ie you don't get in the teep, then clinch. Clinch is another go to move from a BJJ perspective. It's good for both MT and BJJ... we just hold it different. You have soooo many options from a clinch.


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## frank raud (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Hmm yeah, like I said i prefer using Muay Thai/Boxing since I´m much more confident in that  But thanks


Fair enough , however as you've said, you have 3-4 months of Muay Thai, and have trouble landing your kicks as the person is rushing you, so that says you need more practice with your teep. If you haven't been shown how to bend at the waist to get your body out of range while throwing low kicks, you might want to be having this discussion with your instructor. We still don't know what your background is other than 3-4 months of Muay Thai, so it is difficult to suggest techniques you may be comfortable with, other than extremely basic MT.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Hello! I´ve been doing Martial Arts for around 3-4 Years and for the past few months I´ve been doing Muay Thai. What I´ve never learned is what you do if someone comes at you with swinging, wild punches. I´ve tried to google and youtube it but nothing seems to work the way it should. What do you guys think is the best things to do? I told my friend to come at me with swinging punches (with gloves obv) I tried to clinch but that didn't work out so well. What I think is the best thing to do it step to the side if you have enough space and attack. What do you think you can do more?


My personal thoughts on this is that you should ask your friend to come at you again so that you can find out the answer to this question on your own.  What I would do vs what you would do, vs what someone else would in that situation could all be different things.  What works for me may not be good for you.

I think you would  benefit more by training against this attack and sharing what works, what doesn't work, what you are having trouble with.  The reason I say this is because it is possible that you are doing the right thing to deal with an attack like that, but your timing may be off which is why it isn't working.

when your friend is swinging wildly, are all of his punches linear, or are all of the punches circular.  Knowing things like that can help you determine your options.  When your friend punches at you do you turtle, can you see openings as he's charging in? Do you see openings? These are things that you should be doing.   Fighting is less about "What I can do if..." and more about "What opportunities does my opponent give me to strike...."


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> What I´ve never learned is what you do if someone comes at you with swinging, wild punches.


You can

- let your opponent chest to run into your front kick.
- let his face to run into your rhino guard.
- take him down by "single leg".
- move out of the way and lead him into the emptiness
- ...


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

yak sao said:


> If he's getting inside of your kicking range, throw knee instead keeping your hands up to cover your face and then drive right down the middle with  punches


Hmm yeah didn't think of that


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> In MT, you would use a teep to create distance and then destroy them with a round house. If they get close, ie you don't get in the teep, then clinch. Clinch is another go to move from a BJJ perspective. It's good for both MT and BJJ... we just hold it different. You have soooo many options from a clinch.


 yeah true, I tried to clinch but it was pretty hard cuz of his arms being in the way tho. Probably did something wrong


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> yeah true, I tried to clinch but it was pretty hard cuz of his arms being in the way tho. Probably did something wrong


Can you describe the punches? I'm picturing three very different scenarios at the same time, based upon how I read your posts. Clarification would be...well, clarifying.


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Fair enough , however as you've said, you have 3-4 months of Muay Thai, and have trouble landing your kicks as the person is rushing you, so that says you need more practice with your teep. If you haven't been shown how to bend at the waist to get your body out of range while throwing low kicks, you might want to be having this discussion with your instructor. We still don't know what your background is other than 3-4 months of Muay Thai, so it is difficult to suggest techniques you may be comfortable with, other than extremely basic MT.


Yeah well I have a friend that have been praticing MT for 1 year but he is pretty damn good so I ask him alot. Also I quick learned the basics of MT and some advanced things. Before MT I mainly watched youtube videos and trained at home. I did some taekwondo and aikido too tho.


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> My personal thoughts on this is that you should ask your friend to come at you again so that you can find out the answer to this question on your own.  What I would do vs what you would do, vs what someone else would in that situation could all be different things.  What works for me may not be good for you.
> 
> I think you would  benefit more by training against this attack and sharing what works, what doesn't work, what you are having trouble with.  The reason I say this is because it is possible that you are doing the right thing to deal with an attack like that, but your timing may be off which is why it isn't working.
> 
> when your friend is swinging wildly, are all of his punches linear, or are all of the punches circular.  Knowing things like that can help you determine your options.  When your friend punches at you do you turtle, can you see openings as he's charging in? Do you see openings? These are things that you should be doing.   Fighting is less about "What I can do if..." and more about "What opportunities does my opponent give me to strike...."


Yeah okay got it! I have a hard time to see openings etc though since my reaction time isn't good enough, can't even see if my opponent is gonna throw a jab or a hook before it lands :/


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## MorzMP (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Can you describe the punches? I'm picturing three very different scenarios at the same time, based upon how I read your posts. Clarification would be...well, clarifying.


Jabs, crosses and hooks.


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## marques (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The stop kick to the knee is one of my favorites, though I admit to questioning its reliability on unpredictable surfaces.


Why unreliable on unpredictable surfaces (if there is no rotation on the supporting foot)?

I prefer this one in relation to the front kick since it is safer (against takedowns), faster (because shorter), and can be done from shorter distance (so still an option if the reaction time is slow). It will hardly produce a TKO, but it nullifies largely footwork, 'punch work' and everything. 

I also like leg/low kick. Still done from longer distance than punches. But a bit more complex in a stressful situation and on irregular ground... So instead I use a lot an inside low kick (just above the knee - SP 10 Sea of Blood) done with the toes or shoes (long, safe, unpredictable and painful - just needs accuracy), which requires little to no rotation. Never used in real life (or competition), but in training they are great. When the partner starts managing it, I am already doing something else. 

PS: It looks like I am a kicker. I just like to avoid the opponent strengths (wild box in this case).
PS2: I am trying to put too much in too little words. Again...


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## marques (Feb 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> My personal thoughts on this is that you should ask your friend to come at you again so that you can find out the answer to this question on your own.


This is my concept of ideal training. After 3-4 years' training and all the suggestions you have here, there is already a lot of hypothesis.

If you have the opportunity to do it, do it. Ask him to go slower as an intermediate step, if needed.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

If done right, charge punch is devastating.  I'm not talking about Bart Simpson flailing at you.

From close, you drive with the legs and drill that first punch, followed by two more, each powered by another driving step, and it's over in under a second.  If the timing is good so you catch him at a vulnerable moment, you've got him.  You charge right over him as he goes down.

It isn't so easy to defend against.  I think in sparring and whatnot, a lot of people do it with low committment, it doesn't work.  Do it like you mean it, it works very well.  It can't be done from a distance, too much broadcast.  It has to be from close enough that the first punch really drills him hard, with full body mass driving in behind it, with zero warning.


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## crazydiamond (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The stop kick to the knee is one of my favorites, though I admit to questioning its reliability on unpredictable surfaces.



More or less what comes to my mind. Jeet Tek in my MA







or Teep (also taught in my MA)


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 17, 2017)

For me the side kick usually keeps them out of reach and they can't land anything when doing that.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

crazydiamond said:


> More or less what comes to my mind. Jeet Tek in my MA
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is way too much distance there, that is the wrong setup and wrong distance to try to use charge punch.


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## frank raud (Feb 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> There is way too much distance there, that is the wrong setup and wrong distance to try to use charge punch.


So, a straight blast?


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Yeah but if I try to do leg kicks I the person throwing wild punches will probably get in some punches while I do a low kick or? Idk



Move off line then kick.

Cover dig in and throw punches back.

Learn good footwork. And move out of their way.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

frank raud said:


> So, a straight blast?


Well, I'm not sure what you mean by a blast.

Think of it as three driving steps, not quite actually running, we try to keep some more stability than that.  But each step has a punch that it is powering.  But it can't be set up from a distance, where the guy can see you.  Better from some engagement where he has his mind on something already, then BAM BAM BAM like lightning.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Yeah okay got it! I have a hard time to see openings etc though since my reaction time isn't good enough, can't even see if my opponent is gonna throw a jab or a hook before it lands :/


You have that backwards. Your reaction time is slow because you don't see the openings. Much of the skill in martial arts is pattern recognition - seeing the openings that are about to happen.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Jabs, crosses and hooks.


Okay, the hooks and crosses probably leave some room in the center. The jabs cover that. None of those are covering low, so that's your first place to think. And none of those are likely to keep you from moving off-line (taking an angle), so there's a second place to think, and perhaps a place to move, to get access to the ribs that are exposed while he's throwing all those punches.

Have him slow down, and keep working the scenario. He should slow down until you can do something useful about 75% of the time. Then he can start to speed up, to keep you at about that success rate.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

marques said:


> Why unreliable on unpredictable surfaces (if there is no rotation on the supporting foot)?
> 
> I prefer this one in relation to the front kick since it is safer (against takedowns), faster (because shorter), and can be done from shorter distance (so still an option if the reaction time is slow). It will hardly produce a TKO, but it nullifies largely footwork, 'punch work' and everything.
> 
> ...


It's a risk of any kick on unpredictable surfaces, because you have to pick up one foot. It's part of the trade-off.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Yeah okay got it! I have a hard time to see openings etc though since my reaction time isn't good enough, can't even see if my opponent is gonna throw a jab or a hook before it lands :/


If you were my student, then this would be the first thing I would recommend.  If you can't stay calm enough for your brain to analyze what is coming at you then much of what the others are recommending isn't going to be use to you.  

When I teach my students how to fight. I refer to this as "sitting in the storm."  What this means is that my first move is to protect my head and at the same time watch and analyze my opponent for an opening to either, counter, attack, escape, bait, or move to a position that give me an advantage or takes me out of danger.  I make students learn how to do this without closing their eyes. They need to see every punch even if it slips in and hits them in the nose.  

Here's of a video of me "sitting in the storm."   My sparring partner rushes in with some good combinations.  I sacrifice my stomach because I know I can take a punch there better than I can take in my head. So it's really not much of a sacrifice.  When you watch the slow motion part at the end, you can see that my punch follows as his punch retreats.  You can see how my one punch stuns him and knocks him backwards.  It wasn't a hard punch just a well placed one. In this video that punch landed on his heart.  Also pay attention to my head and you can tell that I'm analyzing him while he's attacking me.





You don't have to go fancy  when dealing with charging punches, but you will always have to be able to analyze what is coming at you, while you are defending against a punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 17, 2017)

marques said:


> This is my concept of ideal training. After 3-4 years' training and all the suggestions you have here, there is already a lot of hypothesis.
> 
> If you have the opportunity to do it, do it. Ask him to go slower as an intermediate step, if needed.


5 different people can attack me with charging punches and there's a high possibility that I will respond in a different way for each of the 5 people.  Sometimes I've done a heel kick, and other times I take an angle.  If my feet are in a good position to do a heel kick as a counter, then I have to use something else.  If my body position isn't good enough to take an angle then I'll "sit in the storm."  There's never really a standard answer where "if my opponent does A, then I do B."

I agree with you 100%.  I like your recommendation about asking the partner to go slower.  I'm a big fan of that.  If the punches are coming in too fast and too hard then he'll never take the risk to try any of suggestions.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> If done right, charge punch is devastating.  I'm not talking about Bart Simpson flailing at you.
> 
> From close, you drive with the legs and drill that first punch, followed by two more, each powered by another driving step, and it's over in under a second.  If the timing is good so you catch him at a vulnerable moment, you've got him.  You charge right over him as he goes down.
> 
> It isn't so easy to defend against.  I think in sparring and whatnot, a lot of people do it with low committment, it doesn't work.  Do it like you mean it, it works very well.  It can't be done from a distance, too much broadcast.  It has to be from close enough that the first punch really drills him hard, with full body mass driving in behind it, with zero warning.


These are actually very easy for me to defend against.  The more committed a person is to their punch, the harder it will be for them to change directions.  The more committed they are to their punch the less they are thinking about their legs.


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## frank raud (Feb 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I'm not sure what you mean by a blast.
> 
> Think of it as three driving steps, not quite actually running, we try to keep some more stability than that.  But each step has a punch that it is powering.  But it can't be set up from a distance, where the guy can see you.  Better from some engagement where he has his mind on something already, then BAM BAM BAM like lightning.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 17, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Yeah okay got it! I have a hard time to see openings etc though since my reaction time isn't good enough, can't even see if my opponent is gonna throw a jab or a hook before it lands :/


You can force your opponent to open himself.

If you protect your

- center, your opponent will use hook, or hay-maker to punch you from the side.
- sides, your opponent will use jab, or cross to punch you from the center.

Which door that you want your opponent to come in is up to you.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 17, 2017)

frank raud said:


>


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this video is probably not a good representation of how to charge in with punches.  That type of charge doesn't have power, it's unstable, and a quick person would knock the mess out of him charging in like that.  Mike Tyson does the appropriate charge it's rooted but mobile and quick.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> These are actually very easy for me to defend against.  The more committed a person is to their punch, the harder it will be for them to change directions.  The more committed they are to their punch the less they are thinking about their legs.


Ok.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you were my student, then this would be the first thing I would recommend.  If you can't stay calm enough for your brain to analyze what is coming at you then much of what the others are recommending isn't going to be use to you.
> 
> When I teach my students how to fight. I refer to this as "sitting in the storm."  What this means is that my first move is to protect my head and at the same time watch and analyze my opponent for an opening to either, counter, attack, escape, bait, or move to a position that give me an advantage or takes me out of danger.  I make students learn how to do this without closing their eyes. They need to see every punch even if it slips in and hits them in the nose.
> 
> ...


He isn't committed to the charge, but that's what happens in sparring. It isn't a genuine test of the strategy.  It can't be. 

It's easy to defend against when you know it's coming, and when everyone is wearing clunky boxing gloves.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this video is probably not a good representation of how to charge in with punches.  That type of charge doesn't have power, it's unstable, and a quick person would knock the mess out of him charging in like that.  Mike Tyson does the appropriate charge it's rooted but mobile and quick.


Tyson isn't charging in the video.  He is pressing, at times.  He is not charging.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

frank raud said:


>


Similar concept, I'm not a fan of the centerline punch like that, and his stepping is different.  He is punching faster than his steps, so they aren't worked together.  That eliminates the potential power that he could get from a driving step.  He also seems to be rising up and losing his root,  it's not easy to keep your root when moving quickly.  It's something to strive for, tho.


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Move off line then kick.
> 
> Cover dig in and throw punches back.
> 
> Learn good footwork. And move out of their way.



ok. so now i have access to youtube.

Basically you need to learn decent head movement, defence and counter punching off a guy who knows that sort of thing.

Then you need to move backwards and then sideways. no more than two steps back. A person running forwards can overrun a person running backwards. But a person turning a corner can beat a person following.

so it will look a little something like this.





or this.





or this.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 18, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> He isn't committed to the charge, but that's what happens in sparring. It isn't a genuine test of the strategy.  It can't be.
> 
> It's easy to defend against when you know it's coming, and when everyone is wearing clunky boxing gloves.


People do charging attacks on me all the time. That's why it's easy for me.  The size of the gloves does not make a difference when it comes to doing a proper charge.  It's in the legs.  If the root isn't there for the punch then the punch will be weak. Running after a person as shown in that video is not the correct way to charge at someone.


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> People do charging attacks on me all the time. That's why it's easy for me.  The size of the gloves does not make a difference when it comes to doing a proper charge.  It's in the legs.  If the root isn't there for the punch then the punch will be weak. Running after a person as shown in that video is not the correct way to charge at someone.



ben 10 hitting that little cross step with a charging attack.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 18, 2017)

drop bear said:


> A person running forwards can overrun a person running backwards. But a person turning a corner can beat a person following.


You are exactly correct.  This is the rule for linear punch charges. Which is why martial art charges should not be running charges.  If someone charges in linear then step off the line of attack. If a person can time the beginning of the charge then the charge will stall.


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You are exactly correct.  This is the rule for linear punch charges. Which is why martial art charges should not be running charges.  If someone charges in linear then step off the line of attack. If a person can time the beginning of the charge then the charge will stall.



Not really. 

Just because a counter exists. Doesnt invalidate the tactic. Charges work, counters to charges work. 

That is fighting.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 18, 2017)

drop bear said:


> ben 10 hitting that little cross step with a charging attack.


excellent video showing a charge.  Very similar to what Mike Tyson was doing with his pad word.  Both had a root from which they could draw power from.  Ben 10 isn't running on his toes like the video of the other guy. This allows him to change direction as well as move forward, unlike that other guy who had to pull up like a plane recovering from a nose dive. lol

Those are the types of charges that I often get attacked with.   His opponent didn't understand how that charge works, because the charge is with circular punches.   Still a great technique for Ben 10, because even while he was attacking he was analyzing his opponent which allowed him to duck that punch.  Had Ben 10 been punching wildly then he would have been hit solid as the guy tried to counter him with that punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 18, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Not really.
> 
> Just because a counter exists. Doesnt invalidate the tactic. Charges work, counters to charges work.
> 
> That is fighting.


I think you misunderstood me.  I know charges work.  I use them myself, but I'm never on my toes and I never charge in a way that doesn't allow me to change direction.


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## Buka (Feb 18, 2017)

People who run at you swinging wildly are either doing it for the first time - or have done it before and it worked for them. Doesn't take a brain trust to figure what is the more likely.

But we all train here. We have emulated that wild swinging/charging scenario and have practiced our response to it over and over, because we all know it is a common thing. We have done so with the appropriate contact, with as much madness as we could safely recreate, and with as many options that are at our disposal.

We, all of us, don't just train to defend against what we do in our particular art, we train to defend against actual attacks, actual violence.

May we all survive to fight another day. Hoorah.


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## Headhunter (Feb 18, 2017)




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## RTKDCMB (Feb 18, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> The only problem I have with kicks is that I never can get far enough from my target to actually throw the kick since he constantly runs at me.


Try side stepping and using a turning (roundhouse) kick.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 18, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> People do charging attacks on me all the time. That's why it's easy for me.  The size of the gloves does not make a difference when it comes to doing a proper charge.  It's in the legs.  If the root isn't there for the punch then the punch will be weak. Running after a person as shown in that video is not the correct way to charge at someone.


Well, as I'm saying, in any sparring situation it can only be half way because to use it for real requires full committment and if successful, requires and results in real injury to the opponent.  And yes, size of the gloves absolutely makes a difference.  It's best as a bare knuckle attack, this is really meant for real, not a game.  So it will never quite work completely, in sparring.  But sparring is a good time and place to experiment with it, as long as expectations are realistic.

Yes, it's in the legs, and no, you don't chase someone with it.  That's why the set up is so important.  You launch when he will have no opportunity to retreat.

None of the videos posted show a proper charge punch, done the way it's meant to be done


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## Flying Crane (Feb 18, 2017)

Headhunter said:


>


I'm not sure what you are trying to show with this video?  Was it the end of the fight where Silvia knocked him out?

If so, that guy had already lost. His fight was gone, he had nothing left to give.  He launched his charge from too far away, with no setup, against a guy who still had a lot of fight left in him.  So it didn't work.

Like anything, it's not a magic bullet.


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## marques (Feb 18, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's a risk of any kick on unpredictable surfaces, because you have to pick up one foot. It's part of the trade-off.


I think it is more riskier a bad* kick than raising a foot alone.

I don't remember using kicks 'in real life' and even in training when things are a bit serious, I start using only super safe and defensive kicks, and lots of fake kicks just for step in. Because a bad kick is high risk.

*bad choice or quality

PS: Long time ago, I did great high kicks in a light contact competition. As it was light contact, the opponent was throwing me down after the connected kicks. I lost the combat (as throwings where more valuable). I love kicks, but I don't trust them as finishing techniques (since putting power on them compromises a lot my defence or follow up to the next move).


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2017)

marques said:


> I think it is more riskier a bad* kick than raising a foot alone.
> 
> I don't remember using kicks 'in real life' and even in training when things are a bit serious, I start using only super safe and defensive kicks, and lots of fake kicks just for step in. Because a bad kick is high risk.
> 
> ...


Agreed. The risk on unpredictable surfaces is that an impediment can ruin what would otherwise be a solid kick, so even a "good" kick can turn out to be "bad".

For others reading, I'm not saying kicks are useless in self-defense. Given their power, there are times the risk is worth the benefit. The better your kicks, the higher the benefit. If you've also practiced on some unpredictable surfaces, you reduce the risk a bit.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 18, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can force your opponent to open himself.
> 
> If you protect your
> 
> ...


Here are examples:

1. Invite your opponent to come in through your side doors.






2. Invite your opponent to come in through your front door.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 18, 2017)

marques said:


> Because a bad kick is high risk.


Agree! If your opponent can 

- catch your kicking leg,
- hook your standing leg,
- you will have no leg left but fall,
- if he also drops his knee right into your groin area, 

that will be a "finish move" and you will regret for the rest of your life


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 18, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. The risk on unpredictable surfaces is that an impediment can ruin what would otherwise be a solid kick, so even a "good" kick can turn out to be "bad".
> 
> For others reading, I'm not saying kicks are useless in self-defense. Given their power, there are times the risk is worth the benefit. The better your kicks, the higher the benefit. If you've also practiced on some unpredictable surfaces, you reduce the risk a bit.


Surfaces really aren't unpredictable.  if you are walking on a surface then you should already have an idea of the footing for that surface.  For example think of all of the different surfaces that you walk on throughout the year.  You are able to navigate these surfaces with very little trouble because your body and mind recognizes the change in surfaces.  There are exceptions such as wet spill on the floor where the same surface goes from dry to wet.  But for the most part when I step on grass, the majority of that grass is going to be the same.  When I train students during warm ups, I tell them to focus on how their feet interact with the ground, I tell them to take notes of shifts and changes in their muscles. Most people walk on the ground without paying attention to the ground they are walking on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Surfaces really aren't unpredictable.  if you are walking on a surface then you should already have an idea of the footing for that surface.  For example think of all of the different surfaces that you walk on throughout the year.  You are able to navigate these surfaces with very little trouble because your body and mind recognizes the change in surfaces.  There are exceptions such as wet spill on the floor where the same surface goes from dry to wet.  But for the most part when I step on grass, the majority of that grass is going to be the same.  When I train students during warm ups, I tell them to focus on how their feet interact with the ground, I tell them to take notes of shifts and changes in their muscles. Most people walk on the ground without paying attention to the ground they are walking on.


By "unpredictable", I'm referring to surfaces that don't present a consistent level and footing. Gravel is unpredictable - sometimes it feels solid, sometimes it slips quickly. Some sidewalks are unpredictable - they can go quickly from level to broken. Those are the things I'm talking about. Observation can fix some of that, but that's not the same as prediction. Mats, most pave parking lots, hardwood floors, etc. are more predictable, excepting any impedimenta. Impedimenta can make any surface unpredictable. In my house, it's possible at any point to step on a dog toy. That's not predictable, and can only be solved by observation. That kind of observation is difficult in the heat of an attack (tunnel vision).

As for walking on a surface, most of us occasionally stumble when walking. That's when we're using both feet (not the case in a kick), and not suffering tunnel vision. Add the force vectors from a kick, and things get less stable, yet.


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## JR 137 (Feb 18, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this video is probably not a good representation of how to charge in with punches.  That type of charge doesn't have power, it's unstable, and a quick person would knock the mess out of him charging in like that.  Mike Tyson does the appropriate charge it's rooted but mobile and quick.



I can't get enough Mike Tyson in his prime training videos.  The ones where he's with with Teddy Atlas and/or Kevin Rooney.  After he fired those guys, he stood up straight, effectively turning him into a punching bag for anyone who was any good.

But the real point of my post... notice how many times he's in horse stance?  Modified front leaning stance?  We call that one suri ashi dachi and use quite it often in Seido.

And some people think the karate stances are a waste of time.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 19, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I can't get enough Mike Tyson in his prime training videos.  The ones where he's with with Teddy Atlas and/or Kevin Rooney.  After he fired those guys, he stood up straight, effectively turning him into a punching bag for anyone who was any good.
> 
> But the real point of my post... notice how many times he's in horse stance?  Modified front leaning stance?  We call that one suri ashi dachi and use quite it often in Seido.
> 
> And some people think the karate stances are a waste of time.


his stance is how he was able to deliver the power that he had.  Most people know him for that power but he had solid footwork and strong stances


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## kuniggety (Feb 19, 2017)

Pfft... here is all you need to beat Mike Tyson,
Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!/The Dream Fight — StrategyWiki, the video game walkthrough and strategy guide wiki


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## JP3 (Feb 20, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Morote-gari is your friend.


Yep. As is Ipponseoinage, harai makikomi, hiza guruma/sasae tsurikomi goshi depending on the flavor of the instant.

Note how almost all the responses start out with something like, "Get out o the way?" If they really are literally running at you and bringing the flailing, it IS easy to simply step aside, now they've got to deal with the problem of decelerating, changing direction, then reaccelerating in your new direction... all while their flank or rear is exposed to... pick something.

The judo throws above you'd have to learn to make work on a charging opponent, but that's a simple task (not easy, simple. There's a difference.) You get out of the way by dropping below the opponent's attack and their momentum literally causes them to throw themselves... you mearly become a fulcrum. If you're being nice. If not, you can be a jet-assist fulcrum.

Personally, if they initiated by the charging, swinging attack, I'm not going to let them get away and just do that again, as anyone can get caught. If I turned their momentum advantage into a disadvantage, I'm going to press it home, right into their side (side of head, neck, kidney, hip socket, knee or ankle) right there, right when I've slipped them if able to do so.


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## JR 137 (Feb 20, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> his stance is how he was able to deliver the power that he had.  Most people know him for that power but he had solid footwork and strong stances



Tyson is like Michael Jordan in a sense - everyone remembers those spectacular dunks and fade-away jumpers.  They forget that he always put himself in the right place at the right time by reading the opposition, anticipating correctly, and reacting at the right time.

Tyson wouldn't have been able to unload those bombs had he not put himself in the right place at the right time.  His footwork and head/torso movement put him at the perfect angle to deliver clean punches, all while making him a very difficult target.  The way he moved, it was pretty hard to tell his defense from his offense. 

It's too bad he forgot this.  After D'Amato and Abrams (his original promoter) died, he surrounded himself with yes-men.  Teddy Atlas and Kevin Rooney told him what he needed to hear, not what he wanted to hear; so they were fired.

He knew he could knock anyone out with one punch, but he forgot he had to set up that punch.  He stopped moving, stood up straight, and looked for the homerun swing.  His angles of attack that really made him who he was became pretty much non-existent.

He forgot he actually had to train.  It's reported that trained a total of 3 days for the Buster Douglas fight.

If Tyson kept his work ethic and training style throughout his career, he'd easily be in the conversation of the best of all time.  Just my opinion.


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## JR 137 (Feb 20, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Pfft... here is all you need to beat Mike Tyson,
> Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!/The Dream Fight — StrategyWiki, the video game walkthrough and strategy guide wiki



He used to destroy me when I was in elementary school.  I picked up the game again in college and beat him up pretty regularly.  Picked it back up several months ago, and it was ugly.  I guess I didn't keep up my "finger speed" (as Tyson calls it when you beat him).


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## frank raud (Feb 21, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Yep. As is Ipponseoinage, harai makikomi, hiza guruma/sasae tsurikomi goshi depending on the flavor of the instant.
> 
> Note how almost all the responses start out with something like, "Get out o the way?" If they really are literally running at you and bringing the flailing, it IS easy to simply step aside, now they've got to deal with the problem of decelerating, changing direction, then reaccelerating in your new direction... all while their flank or rear is exposed to... pick something.
> 
> ...


I intentionally chose Morote-gari over other throws as it does not involve controlling an arm prior to the throw, making the ability to capture a flailing(punching) arm a moot point. Heck if you could time it, Kani-basami would work.


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## wingerjim (Feb 21, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Hello! I´ve been doing Martial Arts for around 3-4 Years and for the past few months I´ve been doing Muay Thai. What I´ve never learned is what you do if someone comes at you with swinging, wild punches. I´ve tried to google and youtube it but nothing seems to work the way it should. What do you guys think is the best things to do? I told my friend to come at me with swinging punches (with gloves obv) I tried to clinch but that didn't work out so well. What I think is the best thing to do it step to the side if you have enough space and attack. What do you think you can do more?


Deflect their energy and use it against them by getting them off balance. Almost all arts teach us to take advantage of someone off balance, my art Wing Chun does just that to be able to capitalize on this advantage.


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## Balrog (Feb 22, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Hello! I´ve been doing Martial Arts for around 3-4 Years and for the past few months I´ve been doing Muay Thai. What I´ve never learned is what you do if someone comes at you with swinging, wild punches.


A defensive side kick to the midsection or upper thigh will completely ruin the guy's entire day.


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## KangTsai (Feb 25, 2017)

That's the single easiest scenario to deal with. I prefer to slip and pound the crap out of the body followed by a kick, or shoot. Depends what I feel like.


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## Buka (Feb 25, 2017)

Balrog said:


> A defensive side kick to the midsection or upper thigh will completely ruin the guy's entire day.



Oh yes indeed.


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## JP3 (Mar 5, 2017)

frank raud said:


> I intentionally chose Morote-gari over other throws as it does not involve controlling an arm prior to the throw, making the ability to capture a flailing(punching) arm a moot point. Heck if you could time it, Kani-basami would work.



Frank... you'd not use a banned technique against some idiot running at you with punches, would ya? Say it isn't so...

I know, that's not what you meant.  But, pulling Kani-basami out of the bag like that just begged for the joke.


But,... I have to ask. Morote-gari?  You critique the examples of techniques which to my mind are designed to take a charging opponent and let him go for the ride of his... er... life, and you'd use the two-hand reap?  Meaning, you'd crouch down, in front of the guy who is running at you, and try to get running feet instead?  Sounds like a semantics style statement.   Unless I'm missing a sarcasm button or something. Which... I might be. Was in Cancun with wife-unit last week and lost a few more brain cells and am perhaps below the threshold necessary.

Personally, I don't duck if my feet can move. Ducks get shot (old karate instructo's favorite sparring session cliché to utter).


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## drop bear (Mar 6, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Frank... you'd not use a banned technique against some idiot running at you with punches, would ya? Say it isn't so...
> 
> I know, that's not what you meant.  But, pulling Kani-basami out of the bag like that just begged for the joke.
> 
> ...



All of rugby disagrees with you.


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## frank raud (Mar 6, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Frank... you'd not use a banned technique against some idiot running at you with punches, would ya? Say it isn't so...
> 
> I know, that's not what you meant.  But, pulling Kani-basami out of the bag like that just begged for the joke.
> 
> ...


Well, as my first suggestion was a banned technique, I was thinking for consistency...... besides if he's throwing windmill punches, aint no ref going to give me hansoku-make. I  figure if someone is throwing windmill punches with any force, it is harder to time the grab of the arm for kuzushi than to throw your shoulder into stomach/hip area and grab the legs. Works in football and rugby all the time.
In jiu jitsu, used to do a technique we called an airplane throw, essentially a hip throw without grabbing the arms or controlling the hips. Only worked on someone running at you. But as the OP was asking for what he could do, I would still recommend morote-gari. Your mileage may vary.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2017)

Yesterday in my Sunday class, we drilled this "rhino guard" when your opponent runs toward you and tried to knock your head off. You then aim your "rhino guard" between his arms, right at his face, and run toward him with full speed. That was an interested training.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

Front kick to his chest. Your leg is longer than his arms. It will keep his fists from you and stop him from charging.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 10, 2017)

MorzMP said:


> Hello! I´ve been doing Martial Arts for around 3-4 Years and for the past few months I´ve been doing Muay Thai. What I´ve never learned is what you do if someone comes at you with swinging, wild punches. I´ve tried to google and youtube it but nothing seems to work the way it should. What do you guys think is the best things to do? I told my friend to come at me with swinging punches (with gloves obv) I tried to clinch but that didn't work out so well. What I think is the best thing to do it step to the side if you have enough space and attack. What do you think you can do more?



Run the other way ?


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## JP3 (Mar 10, 2017)

Ahh I got it now.  Two leg shoot, driving takedown, front tackle from Rugby or Football. I gotcha.

Might look sorta like morote gari, but ain't.  Morote-gari is classified as Te-waza for a reason, it's done with hands. Well, when done properly, it is. There is no shoulder drive into the belly and pounding drive witht he legs forcing the issue.

Problem is, Morote-gari is HARD to do right, so it almost always looks like a technically-correct tackle.  I get it now. Yep, Drop, all of rugby would disagree.... or at least 99.89%  because there may be 0.11% who do and know judo done correct.  Still doesn't mean those dudes to a correct Morote-gari on the pitch, they blow the dude up, as well they should.


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Ahh I got it now.  Two leg shoot, driving takedown, front tackle from Rugby or Football. I gotcha.
> 
> Might look sorta like morote gari, but ain't.  Morote-gari is classified as Te-waza for a reason, it's done with hands. Well, when done properly, it is. There is no shoulder drive into the belly and pounding drive witht he legs forcing the issue.
> 
> Problem is, Morote-gari is HARD to do right, so it almost always looks like a technically-correct tackle.  I get it now. Yep, Drop, all of rugby would disagree.... or at least 99.89%  because there may be 0.11% who do and know judo done correct.  Still doesn't mean those dudes to a correct Morote-gari on the pitch, they blow the dude up, as well they should.



Ok. so the difference is?


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## JP3 (Mar 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Ok. so the difference is?



Drop, I can't see your attached examples, but analyze them through the following prism:  it's in the name. Gari, i.e. "reap,"  Technically-correct, principle-driven judo reaping actions are when the foot/leg has no or very little weight on it. The whole maximum-efficiency thing.

A properly done front leg sweep, De Ashi Barai, or traditional Osoto-gari (or any of the other gari entry variations) is done as the uke's weight is stepping down into the mat but has yet to settle, or right as their leg is lifting out of the mat, in both instances, very little weight still in place with down vector, normal force/gravity  combining with friction to hold foot in place on the surface.

One can, of course, blast with power through a leg with weight on it, and many, many people do and lots of them have won up to Olympic contests with this type of Osoto (Yasuhiro Yamashita, most notable... man was a beast).  Still, even yamashita sensei indicates in his Fighting Spirit book that this is technically incorrect, though effective. Perfect vs. Practical, as Gerry also understands it.  The below is an aargument best viewed as "Perfect is the Enemy of Good Enough."

Morote-gari is classified as a hand technique, the primary throwing is done with the hands, gripping the legs/ankles and even the heel/foot if you happen to be low enough.  You don't drive the guy backwards on stopped/stuck feet, you hook & lift the legs from the position you find yourself in, thus lifting uke enough to remove his feet/legs from beneath him and he drops/falls on his back.  Wrestler's shoot, football rugby tackle, you are stopping uke in his tracks, and blowing his center back off of his feet.  This latter, requiring a Lot more power to function is a less-efficient physics solution.  Thing is... it's way hard to do, just like taiotoshi, also a "hand technique" is taught with the leg step across to block uke's step-off of the throw... but if you ... manage ... to hit it ... just right, you don't need the leg at all.  In 22 years of judo I've managed to do taitoshi without the leg and get the gake right one, single time. Planet alignment with Jupiter in Saturn's pocket or some such luck, I am certain.

But, I see what Frank was driving at, now.  Dude running and swinging haymakers, and if there's any groundwork background, why not drop and fire out, tackle the guy, wrap him up in a choke or armbar and handle it that way. As long as there's only  the one bad guy and you don't mind get a bit of clothing mussed up, solid solution.  Personally, I'm still a fan of out of the way and send him on his...


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2017)

If you are relying on your friends to jump in and throw head kicks at the guy on the ground in some sort of effort to save you.

You would want them to be pretty quick.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you are relying on your friends to jump in and throw head kicks at the guy on the ground in some sort of effort to save you.
> 
> You would want them to be pretty quick.


I don't think I like the video.  It's probably because it's one of the things that shouldn't have happened if the kids were being taught with a self-defense focus. Even for small kids I would be telling them things like:  "O.K. guys keep your hands up so no one can hit your head."  "Don't do this and don't do that."  "Doing this will get you in trouble."  "Doing this will make it easy for someone to put you on the ground and beat you in the face."

Somewhere in their teaching, should have been the lesson of "This is how you approach your opponent."  Clearly only one student got that memo and it wasn't the one that was laying on his back.  Good news is that kid not only read the MEMO but he probably has it framed.  Maybe one of those expensive wooden frames.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> "This is how you approach your opponent."


How to enter safely is a major part of the MA training. IMO, you have to know exactly where your opponent's arms and leading leg are when you enter.

This come down to the "chasing hands" discussion. If you just chase our opponent's head (or body) and you don't chase where his hands are, his hands will give you problem.

If you punch my head, I'll get your legs. If you get my hands, I can't get your legs.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think I like the video.  It's probably because it's one of the things that shouldn't have happened if the kids were being taught with a self-defense focus. Even for small kids I would be telling them things like:  "O.K. guys keep your hands up so no one can hit your head."  "Don't do this and don't do that."  "Doing this will get you in trouble."  "Doing this will make it easy for someone to put you on the ground and beat you in the face."
> 
> Somewhere in their teaching, should have been the lesson of "This is how you approach your opponent."  Clearly only one student got that memo and it wasn't the one that was laying on his back.  Good news is that kid not only read the MEMO but he probably has it framed.  Maybe one of those expensive wooden frames.



Dont be a duchebag to a better fighter is pretty much always taught in that manner.

If it was taught in a self defence focus the take down would never have worked because of imaginary downward elbows or something.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If it was taught in a self defence focus the take down would never have worked because of imaginary downward elbows or something.


  let me be rephrase that.  If it was taught with a realistic self-defense focus.


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## frank raud (Mar 12, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Ahh I got it now.  Two leg shoot, driving takedown, front tackle from Rugby or Football. I gotcha.
> 
> Might look sorta like morote gari, but ain't.  Morote-gari is classified as Te-waza for a reason, it's done with hands. Well, when done properly, it is. There is no shoulder drive into the belly and pounding drive witht he legs forcing the issue.
> 
> Problem is, Morote-gari is HARD to do right, so it almost always looks like a technically-correct tackle.  I get it now. Yep, Drop, all of rugby would disagree.... or at least 99.89%  because there may be 0.11% who do and know judo done correct.  Still doesn't mean those dudes to a correct Morote-gari on the pitch, they blow the dude up, as well they should.


 Hmmm.... page 55 Kodokan Judo Throwing techniques by Toshiro Daigo (Chief instructor at the Kodokan), one of 3 living 10th Dans    "Tori holds the back of uke's legs from the outside with both hands. At the same time, he pushes uke's chest and abdomen with his right(left) shoulder while reaping him downwards towards the rear to throw him."


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## JP3 (Mar 13, 2017)

... "while reaping him downwards towards the rear to throw him..."

     ... while reaping... being the operative term.  We're probably not going to agree, so let's stop.  I've been to clinics with Bob Rea, Gary Berliner, Ray Richards, all 7th dan and higher and these guys describe it the way I've described it above.  I've been at other seminars with other folks who describe it as you did from Kodokan Judo above. Somebody is doing it wrong, but it depends on who you want to follow the logic of... Personally, I like it when a set of techniques follows a common set of principles applicable to all, but that's probably just me.


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