# USA Karate and National Karate



## sfs982000 (Oct 19, 2009)

Is there anyone out in MT that practices at either one of those dojangs?  It seems like they're pretty popular here in the Midwest and from what I've seen on their websites I'm a bit skeptical.  I've called a couple of thier schools to try and get more information (contracts, dues, etc...) and really didn't get any more information except for a pre canned speech from whomever answered the phone.  I'm curious if there is anyone out there that can tell me if they're viable alternatives for training?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 16, 2009)

Are these karate studios or taekwondo studios?  Do you have links?  I have not practiced at either of them, being on the east coast, but I am curious to see the websites.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2009)

Karate = dojos surely? If it's karate there should be details on the style etc, if it's TKD or TSD then why are they calling it karate? Confusing!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Karate = dojos surely? If it's karate there should be details on the style etc, if it's TKD or TSD then why are they calling it karate? Confusing!


It is pretty much the norm in the States for taekwondo schools to have 'Karate' on the sign. This goes back to the seventies when nobody knew what taekwondo was, but most everyone had at least heard of karate.

So far as I know, and recall from my tenure with TSD, TSD is Shotokan with Korean terminology. They use the same forms (so far as I know, the Pyung-ahn forms are the same as the Pinan and Heian forms). Calling TSD karate does make sense.

I am of the opinion that taekwondo falls under the general category of karate, as it is Shotokan derived and has more in common with Shotokan than it does with anything that is native to Korea.

But knowing whether it is karate, taekwondo, or TSD is fairly important, as it determines the next set of questions: type of sparring, parent org, and which style thereof. 

If it is karate, Japanese or Okinawan? What Ryu?
If TKD, Chang Hon, Kukkiwon, or something else?
If TSD, I am sure that there are questions as well, but I am not familiar enough with the permutations of TSD to know what one would even ask, let alone what the answers would be.

Certainly, a karate school with Korean writing in the windows and on the belts is a good indication that you are not dealing with authentic 'karate' but, with something Korean.

All things considered, calling TKD or TSD karate is not entirely dishonest, but I do believe that the practice has outlived its usefulness. Simply putting 'martial arts' on the sign would suffice.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2009)

I did Wado Ryu before I had to change to TSD, the TSD katas seem to me to be a very simplified version of the Pinan katas. I don't want to be rude but TSD is very much a dumbed down version of Wado and I suspect Shotokan, it has none of the nuances, stances and to me the joy of Wado. It has TKD type movements which I find 'jerky' put into the Wado/Shotokan katas which are far more flowing than the TSD ones.
If I were able I'd be back to Wado in a shot, if a class opened close enough for me to attend so it would make a big difference to me what style was being practised at somewhere that just said 'karate' in a dojang.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 16, 2009)

I wonder if that is true of TSD in general or if it was a school issue.  

I have heard stories of TKD schools converting to another art (either due to the owner joining a new org or the owner simply changing and renaming what he or she was doing and forgoing organization affiliation entirely), and usually it turns into TKD with different forms and more handsy sparring.  

Someone on TKDspace recently had her school go from KKW taekwondo to Goju ryu.  When asked what was 'Goju' now, she said that it is rather difficult to tell.  She indicates that the common techniques (whatever is common between the two) are all still the same as before.  The sparring is still WTF but with more hands and they are doing both Taegeuks and whatever kata are part of Goju.  

In her case, there was an organziational shift to a Goju org., though she did not know the reasons for the shift.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2009)

I've had a look at books, videos and seen demos of TSD from different orgs and it's pretty much TSD as a whole that's easier. I doubt it was meant to be but in trying to make it different a lot of good stuff was left out. We only teach the children it along with Judo so perhaps it doesn't matter. We don't belong to any organisation so I feel free to put a lot of Wado stuff in anyway, the children will move on to other clubs and need to have good basics for whatever style they do next.  Adults do MMA and fight full contact.


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## sfs982000 (Nov 16, 2009)

I appoligize for not posting these before, but here are the links to both organizations.

http://www.usa-karate.net/

http://www.nationalkarate.com/

It appears to be that both are TKD or some variant of it.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2009)

Neither are to my taste, far too flashy and commercial. Doesn't mean they aren't any good just too far away from my idea of martial arts training.


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## Kwan Jang (Nov 16, 2009)

I don't know the individual quality of either group of schools, but I do know a bit about their backgrounds. The people involved at the top of both orgs. were some of the top students of GM Jhoon Rhee of TKD. Most of these guys were high level pioneers of kickboxing in the USA and Gordon Franks was the PKA lightweight champ back in the early days with peers like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis and Jeff Smith. They also promoted the Diamond Nationals which was one of the most successful and well orgainzed/run open tournaments on the US circuit and did a very good job of taking care of the athletes.

While I know of (too) many cases of people with very good qualifications watering down the training when it comes to expanding their schools and org., some just simply are good at taking a high quality product to a mass audience. Given their background, I would suggest they would be worth taking a look at. If they have kept the standards high, they have more than the qualifications to be far above the norm of smaller, local schools.

BTW, I am in the hub of wado in the USA and while I have several friends who are wado instructors and some do have quality programs, in my area at least, they are (as a group) among the lowest quality of "remedial" martial arts I have ever seen. It is really bad around here. As I said, I DO know a few who are good who run quality programs and teach quality martial arts, but Tez, be grateful that you found good ones on your side of the pond. The majority of the ones here would make you ashamed of the amount of McDojos in your previous style.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 16, 2009)

sfs982000 said:


> I appoligize for not posting these before, but here are the links to both organizations.
> 
> http://www.usa-karate.net/
> 
> ...


The sites are tasteful.  They look commercial, but not shameless.

Had Kwanjang not posted first, I would have said that I cannot tell with USA Karate.  Nothing about the site gives it away.

National Karate, however has the 'might for right' slogan, which ID's him as a Jhoon Rhee associate in some fashion.

Given the time period that Kwanjang mentions, at that time in the US, it pretty much was Korean karate.  They were competing in the same tournaments and may have even been doing some of the same forms.  

Nothing on either website that would specifically turn me off.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2009)

Kwan Jang said:


> I don't know the individual quality of either group of schools, but I do know a bit about their backgrounds. The people involved at the top of both orgs. were some of the top students of GM Jhoon Rhee of TKD. Most of these guys were high level pioneers of kickboxing in the USA and Gordon Franks was the PKA lightweight champ back in the early days with peers like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis and Jeff Smith. They also promoted the Diamond Nationals which was one of the most successful and well orgainzed/run open tournaments on the US circuit and did a very good job of taking care of the athletes.
> 
> While I know of (too) many cases of people with very good qualifications watering down the training when it comes to expanding their schools and org., some just simply are good at taking a high quality product to a mass audience. Given their background, I would suggest they would be worth taking a look at. If they have kept the standards high, they have more than the qualifications to be far above the norm of smaller, local schools.
> 
> BTW, I am in the hub of wado in the USA and while I have several friends who are wado instructors and some do have quality programs, in my area at least, they are (as a group) among the lowest quality of "remedial" martial arts I have ever seen. It is really bad around here. As I said, I DO know a few who are good who run quality programs and teach quality martial arts, but Tez, be grateful that you found good ones on your side of the pond. The majority of the ones here would make you ashamed of the amount of McDojos in your previous style.


 

To be honest we have less of the McDojo thing going on here anyway in any style. Most are martial arts clubs here not big schools. It's starting to creep in but thankfully is still on the rarer side. Martial arts doesn't 'sell' as well here. At the weekend I was at a seminar where ther were several different styles taking part and all were traditional clubs including Wado which is a common style here along with Shotokan.
Daniel. I have to disagree with you the sites are far from tasteful in my opinion, they are awful! flashy, commercial, full of marketing stuff. Cheap and nasty lol!
http://www.wadoryu.co.uk/index.php
http://www.devonwadoryu.co.uk/
http://miltonkeynes.schooljotter.com/shotokan
http://www.shotokan.co.uk/
http://www.tagb.biz/


I don't know any of the above, they are just taken at random but they are all typical of the websites we have here.


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## isshinryu guy (Jan 28, 2010)

I live in Minnesota, and was a student at National Karate. It is in fact a homoginized Taekwondo. They are ALL about tournament karate. They were all part of one group together, and the eventually split into the 2 companies. I know nothing about USA Karate, althought they seem very similiar.

 I only stayed with them for about a year. I found that i had little interest in the tournament style they emphasize.

 They teach you flashy forms that look good, but have no substance. No applications are taught. Their self defense is very weak as they only teach things like wrist grabs, etc.

 They are totally what I have heard referred to as a McDojo. Get 'em in, get them to sign contracts, and get them to buy lot's of sparring gear. They get you into tournament point sparring as fast as possible, as it is easy to teach.

 If you are looking for tournament Karate, you would love them. I just did not. The teachers were good hard working guys. I have nothing bad to say about them. I simply thought their program from a martial arts stand point was almost non-existant. I always had a sense that it was more of a business than a martial art, and the Board of Directors just happened to be wearing black Gi's (Doboks).


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## sfs982000 (Jan 29, 2010)

isshinryu guy said:


> I live in Minnesota, and was a student at National Karate. It is in fact a homoginized Taekwondo. They are ALL about tournament karate. They were all part of one group together, and the eventually split into the 2 companies. I know nothing about USA Karate, althought they seem very similiar.
> 
> I only stayed with them for about a year. I found that i had little interest in the tournament style they emphasize.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for the info, I did manage to make it in and observe a couple of their classes and pretty much came to the same conclusions that you made.  Not quite my cup of tea, but if that is what the individual is looking for then good for them.


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## miguksaram (Mar 10, 2010)

As it has already been indicated these schools are "American" Taekwondo.  The founders were students of Jhoon Rhee and have since evolved (for a better use of a word) their art to include more stuff.  The head of the NK in Minnesota, Larry Carnahan, is the owner of N.A.S.K.A open martial arts tournament and runs the Diamond Nationals.  Most of the USA and NK schools do open circuits not TKD circuits.  

I would not say they are good or bad, it really is up to the individual to judge for themselves.


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