# SKK Combos and Various Attacks



## MJS

In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up.  Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is! 

We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.

Let the games begin!


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## 14 Kempo

MJS said:


> In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up. Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is!
> 
> We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.
> 
> Let the games begin!


 
I'd like some clarification first, that being are we "changing" the combination to suit the attack, or modifying movement, strikes and target areas without changing the basic concepts and theories of the original combination?

I believe that each combination has its own set of concepts. As a very basic example, combination 6 teaches us that we can beat a punch with a linear kick (the leg is longer than the arm) as long as we react in a timely manner. With that being said, with somebody attacking from the rear, a back kick to stop his attack is a modified combo 6 without changing the basic concept of the kick beating the punch. A sidekick to an attacker encraoching from that direction, same concept. Combination 7, too late to beat the punch, step off the line and deliver a linear kick ... front, side or back kick, doesn't matter, same concept. You get the idea.


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## JTKenpo

I agree with the concept but feel that the variables widen too much at first glance.  Maybe if we start with varying the attack and what has to change to make the combo work as close to its original form and then if we get going on an indepth of a particular combo reintroduce the concept as you discuss.  To make a long story short I think interpretation may get in the way in that context.


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## JTKenpo

For example lets start at the beginning, well sort of.

#1 - 
RIGHT FOOT STEPS BACK AND LEFT FOOT DRAWS INTO CAT WITH A LEFT MONKEY BLOCK. LEFT FOOT STEPS UP TO HALF MOON STANCE AND WRAP ATTACKERS RIGHT ARM WITH YOUR LEFT. EXECUTE RIGHT RAKING TIGERS CLAW TO LEFT SIDE OF FACE AND RIGHT CRANE STRIKE TO RIGHT SIDE OF FACE (REVERSING DIRECTION). EXECUTE OSOTO GARI TAKEDOWN. FINISH WITH RIGHT VERTICAL PUNCH TO SOLOR PLEXUS AND RIGHT KNIFE HAND TO THROAT. CROSS AND COVER.

If we change the punch to a right push does anything change?  No, actually it becomes a more viable defense against this attack because I am trying to grab the wrist after a parry.  

If we change the attack to a roundhouse punch now we have to do some changing.  We must stop the momentum of the arm, I would suggest stepping into the attack with the left and execute a left extended outward block or knife hand block.  Then we can finish the combo as described.


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## MJS

14 Kempo said:


> I'd like some clarification first, that being are we "changing" the combination to suit the attack, or modifying movement, strikes and target areas without changing the basic concepts and theories of the original combination?
> 
> I believe that each combination has its own set of concepts. As a very basic example, combination 6 teaches us that we can beat a punch with a linear kick (the leg is longer than the arm) as long as we react in a timely manner. With that being said, with somebody attacking from the rear, a back kick to stop his attack is a modified combo 6 without changing the basic concept of the kick beating the punch. A sidekick to an attacker encraoching from that direction, same concept. Combination 7, too late to beat the punch, step off the line and deliver a linear kick ... front, side or back kick, doesn't matter, same concept. You get the idea.


 
I was under the impression from some posts that I saw in that other thread, that the combos could be used to deal with attacks other than punches.  So, I took it as doing our best to keep with the same movements, although some alterations may be necessary to adapt to something other than a punch.


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## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> For example lets start at the beginning, well sort of.
> 
> #1 -
> RIGHT FOOT STEPS BACK AND LEFT FOOT DRAWS INTO CAT WITH A LEFT MONKEY BLOCK. LEFT FOOT STEPS UP TO HALF MOON STANCE AND WRAP ATTACKERS RIGHT ARM WITH YOUR LEFT. EXECUTE RIGHT RAKING TIGERS CLAW TO LEFT SIDE OF FACE AND RIGHT CRANE STRIKE TO RIGHT SIDE OF FACE (REVERSING DIRECTION). EXECUTE OSOTO GARI TAKEDOWN. FINISH WITH RIGHT VERTICAL PUNCH TO SOLOR PLEXUS AND RIGHT KNIFE HAND TO THROAT. CROSS AND COVER.
> 
> If we change the punch to a right push does anything change? No, actually it becomes a more viable defense against this attack because I am trying to grab the wrist after a parry.
> 
> If we change the attack to a roundhouse punch now we have to do some changing. We must stop the momentum of the arm, I would suggest stepping into the attack with the left and execute a left extended outward block or knife hand block. Then we can finish the combo as described.


 
Looks like we're on the same page with this.


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## Hand Sword

Do you mean to decide what type of attck each combo was designed for? I know they are all taught as punch defenses, but that's not the design for all.

For example # 1-- With the quick draw back into a cat stance and the monkey hand block could be to avoid and catch an incoming kick, or thrusting weapon.

The combos with overhead blocks are for overhead attcks etc..

Also, my point with changing the idea of half mooning applies too. Take combo 3, no half mooning in with a punch allows that groin shot off of the slip. Doing it as taught, not a good angle for it.  Also. w/o it, after the jaw shot, they are moving away not allowing the follow up takedown which came after the 1/2 mooning introduction.


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## JTKenpo

Hand Sword said:


> Do you mean to decide what type of attck each combo was designed for? I know they are all taught as punch defenses, but that's not the design for all.
> 
> Yes and no.  Although taught off a punch as you stated below it is very obvious some work best off different attacks.  In my mind this thread is more about exploring many different attacks, what changes and what stays the same for each of the combos
> 
> For example # 1-- With the quick draw back into a cat stance and the monkey hand block could be to avoid and catch an incoming kick, or thrusting weapon.
> 
> Thats what I'm talking about.  I like the kick app, never thought about it that way.
> 
> The combos with overhead blocks are for overhead attcks etc..
> 
> Also, my point with changing the idea of half mooning applies too. Take combo 3, no half mooning in with a punch allows that groin shot off of the slip. Doing it as taught, not a good angle for it. Also. w/o it, after the jaw shot, they are moving away not allowing the follow up takedown which came after the 1/2 mooning introduction.


 
Again absolutely, so now what changes?  Instead of a nice clean sweep of the front leg you have to take the person down face first or at the very least down on their right side.  Going back to the half mooning issue, when there is no half moon it becomes more difficult for the attacker to use a breakfall.  Also I was taught to grab the right shoulder after the left palm block to ensure they aren't going anywhere.


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## MJS

Interestingly enough, I came across these 2 techs. on youtube today, compliments of our very own KenpoJoe!   Rather than start a new thread, I posted them here, as I feel that they are addressing the same topic that we're discussing here.  

Combo 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2FltacEzg&NR=1

Combo 16


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## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> Interestingly enough, I came across these 2 techs. on youtube today, compliments of our very own KenpoJoe!  Rather than start a new thread, I posted them here, as I feel that they are addressing the same topic that we're discussing here.
> 
> Combo 3
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2FltacEzg&NR=1
> 
> Combo 16


 
I happen to be the guy getting smacked around.


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## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> I happen to be the guy getting smacked around.


 
Yes, once KenpoJoe said your name I was like, "Hey, thats JT from the forum!"  Nice job in the clips man!!  I'm planning on getting together with Joe for a workout in the near future.


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## Hand Sword

JTKenpo said:


> Again absolutely, so now what changes? Instead of a nice clean sweep of the front leg you have to take the person down face first or at the very least down on their right side. Going back to the half mooning issue, when there is no half moon it becomes more difficult for the attacker to use a breakfall. Also I was taught to grab the right shoulder after the left palm block to ensure they aren't going anywhere.


 

I don't know, we never had any sweeps etc.... We were taught that combo as a boxing combo. Slip, groin/body shot, left cross (now a grab/check) then uppercut.


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## DavidCC

we took out the groin shot and slip.


step left foot to 1030 with left inward block, rebound block off your own right shoulder to grab their right shoulder, with right thrust punch to floating ribs.

pull down with left hand into right back 2 knuckle to temple; follow through to grab left shoulder arm apssing behind their head.

step right foot back into right half moon, while pushing with left hand toward 130 and pulling right hand towards right hip, take attacker down their right shoulder in front of your right foot.

left C&S, left punch to SP, cross out.


if they leave the right foot behind, it is difficult to get the angle on the shoulders



ps -upward blocks work well for punches to the face too.


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## marlon

DavidCC said:


> we took out the groin shot and slip.
> 
> 
> step left foot to 1030 with left inward block, rebound block off your own right shoulder to grab their right shoulder, with right thrust punch to floating ribs.
> 
> pull down with left hand into right back 2 knuckle to temple; follow through to grab left shoulder arm apssing behind their head.
> 
> step right foot back into right half moon, while pushing with left hand toward 130 and pulling right hand towards right hip, take attacker down their right shoulder in front of your right foot.
> 
> left C&S, left punch to SP, cross out.
> 
> 
> if they leave the right foot behind, it is difficult to get the angle on the shoulders
> 
> 
> 
> ps -upward blocks work well for punches to the face too.


 
we grad the neck from behind..easier to reach than the shoulders and press on the shoulder of the attacking arm this way it does not matter which leg is forward...plus the goin shot tends to bend them forward a bit helping access for the rest of the technique.

marlon


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## karate-dragon

After watching the You Tube clip on Comb#16, does anyone do this as a timing tech. where the kick is first, then step forward and grab the arm for a take down?


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## marlon

karate-dragon said:


> After watching the You Tube clip on Comb#16, does anyone do this as a timing tech. where the kick is first, then step forward and grab the arm for a take down?


 

i do not know any other way to make it work

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Matt

marlon said:


> i do not know any other way to make it work
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon



Check out KenpoJoe's combination 16 clip. He explains the grab first, kick second idea. When I was with MSDC, the kick first made sense to me as it made the arm more stationary and stopped the forward momentum of the attack.  I actually do it a third way somewhat based on Professor Kimo's 'dodging the lance'.


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## 14 Kempo

Matt said:


> Check out KenpoJoe's combination 16 clip. He explains the grab first, kick second idea. When I was with MSDC, the kick first made sense to me as it made the arm more stationary and stopped the forward momentum of the attack. I actually do it a third way somewhat based on Professor Kimo's 'dodging the lance'.


 
Wondering if this is what you're talking about, Matt ... 

Step to 10:30 with the left foot, lefthand parries the opponents right punch. Right upward palm to the chin. Right hand wraps the head and pulls the opponent downward into a rising right knee to the sternum/solar-plexus area. Rotate clockwise to the armbar/break. Use a left cresent kick to the second armbar. Step out with the right leg, a third break. Deliver a finishing strike to the bas of the skull using a dragon fist or pheonix fist. (Hope I wrote that up correctly)


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## Matt

14 Kempo said:


> Wondering if this is what you're talking about, Matt ...
> 
> Step to 10:30 with the left foot, lefthand parries the opponents right punch. Right upward palm to the chin. Right hand wraps the head and pulls the opponent downward into a rising right knee to the sternum/solar-plexus area. Rotate clockwise to the armbar/break. Use a left cresent kick to the second armbar. Step out with the right leg, a third break. Deliver a finishing strike to the bas of the skull using a dragon fist or pheonix fist. (Hope I wrote that up correctly)



Sort of... You are probably thinking of an EPAK technique, but just to make things especially confusing, several of Professor Kimo's techniques share names with EPAK techniques without matching the movements, or even attacks.  The opening move is similar, except the right arm shoots up so that the parry turns into a hyperextension. 

One version goes like this: Dodging the Lance variant (Straight punch) - Parry (l) to rising punch (r), hammer arm down (r) and do roundhouse elbow to face. Grab and pull down head, shoot thrust punch 
across the back of the neck.  Then on the way back you go either into a crank or a takedown, as preferred. It's kind of fluid. I think it's easier to show.


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## marlon

Matt said:


> Check out KenpoJoe's combination 16 clip. He explains the grab first, kick second idea. When I was with MSDC, the kick first made sense to me as it made the arm more stationary and stopped the forward momentum of the attack. I actually do it a third way somewhat based on Professor Kimo's 'dodging the lance'.


 

i'll take a look, thanks Matt.  BTW i do a dragon stomp / stop kick to the lead knee or just above it now as taught by Shihan I, i find it more effective than the front kick to the bladder.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

Matt said:


> Check out KenpoJoe's combination 16 clip. He explains the grab first, kick second idea. When I was with MSDC, the kick first made sense to me as it made the arm more stationary and stopped the forward momentum of the attack. I actually do it a third way somewhat based on Professor Kimo's 'dodging the lance'.


 

Matt thanks for the clip.  I see what sensei Rebelo is saying, however, i find the way i have been taught to do it better inhibits a follow up attack.  the grab first does not do so as well in my opinion.

Respectfully,
marlon


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## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> Matt thanks for the clip. I see what sensei Rebelo is saying, however, i find the way i have been taught to do it better inhibits a follow up attack. the grab first does not do so as well in my opinion.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
It never seases to amaze me how many different variations can be taught in different schools off of one technique and this is in the "ideal" phase.


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## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up. Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is!
> 
> We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.
> 
> Let the games begin!


 
In my opinion #2 is probably the most versatile combo in the system which fits into this discussion.  This defensive manuever can be used with little or no adjustment off a right or left straight punch (step through or not), right hook, right side club, right high roundhouse kick, right or left one hand push, two hand push, left lapel grab, left lapel grab with right hook, right lapel grab and that is without adding or making major adjustments.

Try a few and tell me what you think or if you have others I would love to hear them.  It is also a great manuever to graft other techniques with.


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## DavidCC

Our version of #2 is similar. I would type it out, but it just so happens that I have taken our version of #2 and changed it to use the indices and alignment mechanisms that Doc Chapel taught me. So for your reading pleasure I now present, my own unique take on SKK Combo #2.

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.



			
				David C's version of SKK #2 said:
			
		

> Attack - right roundhouse punch or haymaker
> step forward with right foot to 12 with right inward block with PAM right foot (stomp) as you pivot into horse stance facing 1030, left hand BAM (slap) to right shoulder.
> Right hand travels straight back to right outward block (arm in line with shoulder, elbow at shoulder height) as left hand pushes attackers right hand outward. (right hand positioned to block possible left punch).
> Right hammer fist to temple with left BAM to right shoulder, left hand pulls to left elbow position as right hand continues travel to rebound off your own left shoulder.
> Simultaneously strike right hand back fist to nose with left punch to solar plexus, then roll right arm down to hammer groin while left palm heel positions next to right shoulder (positioned to deflect head butt or falling attacker), shuffling forward if necessary as attacker stumbles back.
> Strike to chin or neck with upward right elbow as attacker bends over from the groin strike.
> Cross out, he's done.


 
I left out some of the details becasue if you don't have the SL-4 vocab it won't matter anyway 

I think this could be useful for outside left although  the targets have to change for outside left since this one attacks targets moving down and up the center line, and for outside left those targets are not available.


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## JTKenpo

"I think this could be useful for outside left although the targets have to change for outside left since this one attacks targets moving down and up the center line, and for outside left those targets are not available." DavidCC

Thats the fun of this thread and looking at the combos against different attacks.  Our natural weapons stay the same but in this case instead of targeting their center line now we are looking at the floating ribs and temple.


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## kidswarrior

marlon said:


> *we grad the neck from behind*..easier to reach than the shoulders and press on the shoulder of the attacking arm this way it does not matter which leg is forward...plus the goin shot tends to bend them forward a bit helping access for the rest of the technique.
> 
> marlon


Thanks, I'd forgotten this nuance. Was taught this as the *advanced* way to do the technique.


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
> quote]
> 
> 
> This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch.  Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face.  This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.


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## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> DavidCC said:
> 
> 
> 
> before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
> quote]
> 
> 
> This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch. Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face. This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting changes, I'll have to think about those.  but I think that these changes assume that I ahve read the attack as a clinch and not a punch.  The dilemma I am having is, after the initial block of the initial punch (conforming to the same "ideal" attack so far), the attacker collapses into you...
> 
> Wait did you say to step forward with right foot, and hammer fist to his left ribs with my right as he clinches me?  Have you worked with that or did you just make that up LOL??? OK I said I would try it so I will
Click to expand...


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## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> DavidCC said:
> 
> 
> 
> before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
> quote]
> 
> Sorry David if i am misinterpreting your statement.  When you talk about the issue of the attacker trying to clinch, is it before i get my attack off or after I have already hit the person?  If the clincher gets me before i hit him, then I am to slow and i need to change my style quickly because he's going to grab me.  If you are talking about the clinch of a person buckling forward after a hit, then you have a few options.  Be aware of a persons body movements when you hit them.  When you hit them low you know they are going to buckle so be ready for follow up.  I just did a quick run through of combos 1-21 in my head and I could see few red flags that would be considered "a problem with many of our combos."  Could you elaborate on this a little, thanks.
> Jesse
Click to expand...


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> JTKenpo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting changes, I'll have to think about those. but I think that these changes assume that I ahve read the attack as a clinch and not a punch. The dilemma I am having is, after the initial block of the initial punch (conforming to the same "ideal" attack so far), the attacker collapses into you...
> 
> Wait did you say to step forward with right foot, and hammer fist to his left ribs with my right as he clinches me? Have you worked with that or did you just make that up LOL??? OK I said I would try it so I will
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No I didn't say step, I thought you meant that you are already in an attackers clench and wanted to use defensive manuevers.  As for the attacker running into you after the initial block let them run into the back punch or the side elbow.
Click to expand...


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## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> quote=DavidCC
> before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
> /quote
> 
> Sorry David if i am misinterpreting your statement. When you talk about the issue of the attacker trying to clinch, is it before i get my attack off or after I have already hit the person? If the clincher gets me before i hit him, then I am to slow and i need to change my style quickly because he's going to grab me. If you are talking about the clinch of a person buckling forward after a hit, then you have a few options. Be aware of a persons body movements when you hit them. When you hit them low you know they are going to buckle so be ready for follow up. I just did a quick run through of combos 1-21 in my head and I could see few red flags that would be considered "a problem with many of our combos." Could you elaborate on this a little, thanks.
> Jesse


 


JTKenpo said:


> No I didn't say step, I thought you meant that you are already in an attackers clench and wanted to use defensive manuevers. As for the attacker running into you after the initial block let them run into the back punch or the side elbow.


 
Yes, nwo you are reading me there  ... for example after the initial block in combo 2, attacker attempts to wrap you up in a bear hug or clinch, trying to smother your arms perhaps.  

I think this could be an issue with any tech where we are inside on their center.  What do you teach, do, or are taught to deal with that?  Mostly (generalizing) the techs don't seem to have mechanisms built in, so what adaptations have been developed or found - and why aren't they part of the base technique?  OR are they when you teach it???


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## marlon

DavidCC said:


> Yes, nwo you are reading me there  ... for example after the initial block in combo 2, attacker attempts to wrap you up in a bear hug or clinch, trying to smother your arms perhaps.
> 
> I think this could be an issue with any tech where we are inside on their center. What do you teach, do, or are taught to deal with that? Mostly (generalizing) the techs don't seem to have mechanisms built in, so what adaptations have been developed or found - and why aren't they part of the base technique? OR are they when you teach it???


 

after the initial move of #2 whether you block with it , strike with it or both...not to mention the body movement involved there are quite a few mechanisms built in.  You may need to work on training them in different scenarios, however and not be so fixed on the targets.  Each combo needs to be explored, yet i find that too much of this too early leads to poor body mechanics and "adjustments" based on flawed execution rather than a need for change.  Try your combo's lefty against a right attack is a simple difference that teaches much.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> DavidCC said:
> 
> 
> 
> before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
> quote]
> 
> 
> This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch. Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face. This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or lift your arm for a rising elbow to the head...
> 
> marlon
Click to expand...


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Yes, nwo you are reading me there  ... for example after the initial block in combo 2, attacker attempts to wrap you up in a bear hug or clinch, trying to smother your arms perhaps.
> 
> I think this could be an issue with any tech where we are inside on their center. What do you teach, do, or are taught to deal with that? Mostly (generalizing) the techs don't seem to have mechanisms built in, so what adaptations have been developed or found - and why aren't they part of the base technique? OR are they when you teach it???


 
Gotcha...lets say the block is good but his momentum brings him through your defense before it happens and you end up in a bear hug.  Do you not have techniques against bear hugs?  I'm not being sarcastic some people do not.  I teach techniques against rear bear hug arms pinned, arms free, front bear hugs arms pinned and arms free.  The fact that now you are in a bear hug shouldn't put you in a mindset that #2, or insert any number here, is flawed.  The attack has changed so must your defense.

Grafting techniques also is a great way to enhance all your defenses but you need to have a solid understanding of each technique so as Marlon put it you aren't changing techniques due to lack of understanding.

Great questions.


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## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> Gotcha...lets say the block is good but his momentum brings him through your defense before it happens and you end up in a bear hug. Do you not have techniques against bear hugs?


 
Or the hammer to the temple dazes him and he falls into you...

But yeah that's a really great point.  Need to do more of that for sure...

However I'd still prefer to address it within the _(to steal some terminology)_ "ideal phase" of the scenariso by employing some kind of depth control within the techniques' base version; then "grafting" _(THIEF!)_ into something else as a "what-if-this-fails" idea, not a "what-if-he-does-this"


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Or the hammer to the temple dazes him and he falls into you...
> 
> But yeah that's a really great point. Need to do more of that for sure...
> 
> However I'd still prefer to address it within the _(to steal some terminology)_ "ideal phase" of the scenariso by employing some kind of depth control within the techniques' base version; then "grafting" _(THIEF!)_ into something else as a "what-if-this-fails" idea, not a "what-if-he-does-this"


 

David in your #2 which is the first strike the hammer to the groin or the back punch to the head?  If it is the hammer I see where you are coming from, there is no depth control in fact you are inviting the attacker to fall on top of you.  Ours has the back punch to the head first which is where the depth control comes from as he moves forward opposing motion helps out in the strike to the head.  Oh and it isn't thievery its flattery, isn't that the saying "The best form of flattery is imitating another".


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## DavidCC

lets' see.....


box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin

we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> lets' see.....
> 
> 
> box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
> right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
> rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin
> 
> we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.


 
Naah, block harder make him fall the other way!!


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## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> lets' see.....
> 
> 
> box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
> right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
> rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin
> 
> we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.


 
That answers a lot for me.  You do not do #2 the way most SKK people do it.  I do not either, I do it off a left right punch with Left foot staying forward, but the rest of it is basically #2 SKK way.  If you hit someone in the temple and they are falling forwards then they are knocked out.  If you hit them hard enough to the temple from this angle they should only be going back and over. Insted of the ridge hand, try a rising elbow you may like it.
Jesse


----------



## Mark L

DavidCC said:


> lets' see.....
> 
> 
> box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
> right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
> rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin
> 
> we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.


This isn't really SKK #2 (as RevIV pointed out), nor does it demonstrate the principles of SKK #2.  There are two take away messages I get from 2, the primary is that you relentlessly drive the opponent backwards ending with them stacked onto their shoulders/neck.  Done properly with some degree of contact and intent the BG ends up about 7-10' behind where they started.  The other salient feature is that the technique is one handed.

This is all not to say your version is bad, it simply diverges significantly from the SKK version in practice and principle.


----------



## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> That answers a lot for me. You do not do #2 the way most SKK people do it. I do not either, I do it off a left right punch with Left foot staying forward, but the rest of it is basically #2 SKK way. If you hit someone in the temple and they are falling forwards then they are knocked out. If you hit them hard enough to the temple from this angle they should only be going back and over. Insted of the ridge hand, try a rising elbow you may like it.
> Jesse


 


Mark L said:


> This isn't really SKK #2 (as RevIV pointed out), nor does it demonstrate the principles of SKK #2. There are two take away messages I get from 2, the primary is that you relentlessly drive the opponent backwards ending with them stacked onto their shoulders/neck. Done properly with some degree of contact and intent the BG ends up about 7-10' behind where they started. The other salient feature is that the technique is one handed.
> 
> This is all not to say your version is bad, it simply diverges significantly from the SKK version in practice and principle.


 

Many of our techniques are different than standard SKK combos, either changed to teach differnet principles or movements, or just completely replaced. (I detailed a bit of that over on Matt's kempoinfo.com)

I'm glad we don't do it one-handed   what's that teach, how to fight if your left hand is choppd off LOL  

Our version does indeed drive attacker backwards too.  Maybe even more because we are hitting on 6-12 with both hands!

The take-aways I get from our version of #2:

it's our first tech that addresses follow-up attacks
learn the risks/rewards of fighting "inside"
first tech that uses "double-tap" blocking - block&parry
rising elbow - Like I said earlier, I have used #2 as a vehicle for experimenting with the SL-4 kenpo pricniples and information I got from Doc Chapel.  The SL-4 variation I practice does use the rising elbow, and is scary effective.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> I'm glad we don't do it one-handed  what's that teach, how to fight if your left hand is choppd off LOL
> 
> .


Wow, that is scarily naive.  What if you have an arm in a sling, carrying a suitcase, or a child....many many possibilities for only having one arm....multiple attackers one of which is grasping your arm....here is a scary thought how about some idiot has handcuffs and manages to get one on you.  As your friend doc quotes Mr. Parker minds are like parachutes they work best open. 
Remember most every teacher changes something but if you blindly discard what others may have to offer then you are only seeing one side of a wide variety the arts have to offer.


----------



## Mark L

DavidCC said:


> I'm glad we don't do it one-handed  what's that teach, how to fight if your left hand is choppd off LOL
> 
> Our version does indeed drive attacker backwards too. Maybe even more because we are hitting on 6-12 with both hands!


Training for the ideal phase only is a recipe for disaster, no need to belabor the point so succinctly made by JTKenpo.

I don't agree that a low-high combination is more effective than the single back punch to the face in the standard SKK #2. The back punch puts the attacker on his heels (and checks forward progress to address your initial depth control issue) and the rising elbow is there if you need it.  Hitting to the midsection tends to bend the opponent forward.  The driving elbow moves him back and further disrupts balance, making the heel sweep much easier to execute. 

I think you've "fixed" something that wasn't broken, at the expense of some quite worthy lessons.


----------



## RevIV

I was administering a black belt test at Master Chris Hatch's school in the cape (where Matt Barnes Trains out of)..one of the canidates going up for black belt was the chief of Police down there.  He ended up breaking 2 ribs during the test (not the norm, bad fall)  He continued the test in pain and kept trying to use his bad side.  I pulled him off by himself and told him that if he continued to use his bad side and hurt himself more i would personally vote no on his black belt recomendation. He continued for four more hours doing everything one handed. David, have you ever done a class in a sling?  I know i make my student train all day with their good arm in a sling.  Here we are teaching techniques that should damage people, we better be prepared if it happens to us.  I agree with Mark L.  you have fixed one of the "original" Skk Combos.
Jesse


----------



## kidswarrior

RevIV said:


> Here we are teaching techniques that should damage people, we better be prepared if it happens to us.
> Jesse


Excellent point. Had an instructor once who said s.th. like, If you damage his arm and he can't use it, you're half way home; if he damages your arm, you tuck it in your belt and keep fighting.


----------



## DavidCC

Wellllll,  LOL :dramaqueen:  I never said it was broken, or that we fixed it! LOL   

"Many of our techniques are *different* than standard SKK combos, either changed to teach *differnet principles or movements*, or just completely replaced."

I would have said "better" if I meant "better"! :asian:


Is it good to be able to fight injured? yes, a good skill to have. Would I dedicate a technique to addressing that? No, I would not. 

Given limited amount of time most students have to train, and the relatively small chance that they will need to defend themselves with one arm, I might go through some one-armed drills occaisionally, but that's about as much time as I would dedicate to it.  

Isn't it a lot more likely to have your strong side arm injured than your off-arm?  Left arm defense against right hand attack?

One arm held by an attacker while a 2nd attacker punches?  That'is our bread and butter  it's the kind of stuff we train all the time, but it's nothing like doing a combo with one hand at elbow position, simulating an injury :/


----------



## Mark L

The thread is about SKK techniques, you don't practice one of the original combinations.  I'm not really interested in a long debate on the subject, but replacing a core technique so you can teach a "different principle or movement" leaves a hole.  You don't have to sacrifice one for the other.  





DavidCC said:


> Is it good to be able to fight injured? yes, a good skill to have. Would I dedicate a technique to addressing that? No, I would not.


Getting injured in a fight is a high probability, why wouldn't you practice dealing with a likely occurrence?



DavidCC said:


> Given limited amount of time most students have to train, and the relatively small chance that they will need to defend themselves with one arm, I might go through some one-armed drills occaisionally, but that's about as much time as I would dedicate to it.


  Then I think the training you're receiving is inadequate.  If you are instructing, I think you need to re-evaluate what you think is important.



DavidCC said:


> Isn't it a lot more likely to have your strong side arm injured than your off-arm?  Left arm defense against right hand attack?


 No, I don't think so.  Right handed people almost always take a stance with the left hand forward, think boxers.



DavidCC said:


> One arm held by an attacker while a 2nd attacker punches?  That'is our bread and butter  it's the kind of stuff we train all the time, but it's nothing like doing a combo with one hand at elbow position, simulating an injury :/


I don't recall saying anything about elbow position, hands on guard at all times.  Nor did I say the technique was simulating an injury, just that it uses the same hand throughout.  Combinations get practiced against myriad attacks by resisting opponents, if you keep your hand at your waist you're going to get whacked.


----------



## DavidCC

"if you keep your hand at your waist you're going to get whacked."

well, unless you've been diligently practicing the original combo #2 that is...


----------



## DavidCC

"Then I think the training you're receiving is inadequate."

I think you leap to judgement on far too few facts.


"Right handed people almost always take a stance with the left hand forward, think boxers."

Untrained right handed people that is... 
We don't model our execution on boxers, and we don't train to fight weak-side forward. Beginners, when first facing a full-speed continuous attack, often fall back on emulating what they've seen boxers or kick boxers do; but they are taught to use kempo and stop doing that as they train more. 
My point was that the right hand does most of the striking so it seems most likely to be injured. That's just a guess though.


"I don't recall saying anything about elbow position, hands on guard at all times. "

Well, what is the left hand doing in the standard #2? Hovering by your left ear or in front of your SP? Tucked into your belt or hanging limp LOL??


"Nor did I say the technique was simulating an injury, just that it uses the same hand throughout. "

Well, not you but some others said that one reason for training to fight with one arm was because injury was likely, and one salient point in #2 was fighting with 1 arm... so at least part of the purpose of teaching #2 as a 1-armed technique was to train for situations where your left arm might be injured...



			
				kidswarrior said:
			
		

> if he damages your arm, you tuck it in your belt and keep fighting.


 


			
				revIV said:
			
		

> I know i make my student train all day with their good arm in a sling. Here we are teaching techniques that should damage people, we better be prepared if it happens to us


----------



## DavidCC

mark L said:
			
		

> I don't agree that a low-high combination is more effective than the single back punch to the face in the standard SKK #2. The back punch puts the attacker on his heels (and checks forward progress to address your initial depth control issue) and the rising elbow is there if you need it. Hitting to the midsection tends to bend the opponent forward. The driving elbow moves him back and further disrupts balance, making the heel sweep much easier to execute.


 
Well, you have to look at the bigger picture within the tech.

Before I do the backfist, I also hit him with a hamer fist across his left temple. I didn't rebound off my inward block, it's coming from my left shoulder as I followed through with the backfist.

Maybe I need to back up again...

After the L-step / inward block, I do a left parry to the attacker's right arm, while bringing my right arm up and back, in line with my right shoulder, an outward block. This accomplishes 3 purposes:
1) blocks a potential left strike to my head
2) sweeps the zone between us, could be forearm strike to head if attacker is leaning in or collapsing
3) places my arm & shoulder in ideal position for maximum power hammer strike to the left temple.

so... right inward, right outward, right hammer to temple whihc follows through to rebound from my left shoulder. The left hand retracts to elbow position after it's parry, so I have a momentary cup & saucer left (sortof)  My body should be rotated slightly CCW from front as a result of the hammer fist.

So now I deliver the backfist to the face and punch to SP together. The right shoulder is closer and the whipping motion of the backfist is faster, so the backfist will get there first, certainly standing him up and yes I agree shifting his weight up & back over his heels ideally. A splt second later, the thrust punch lands, just as his abdominal muscles are stretching out, getting excellent penetration at the SP. And since his weight is shifted up and back is COG is also shifted up, so while he will have the physical reaction of folding around the SP strike, the impact against his rooted mass at COG will send him reeling backwards.


 :asian: good stuff, keep going....
In fact we teach that a shuffle step to 12 might be required to stay in range for the hammer fist to the groin, then rising ridge-hand (or elbow!!) to the jaw which is where we end the technique (although a "good-bye" right side kick is a favorite extension of mine)


----------



## marlon

just want to point out that while the techn (#2) is fast and effective as a one handed technique there is no reason to assume that the other hand is doing nothing.
i am enjoying the discussion btw

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Mark L

David,
I'm not going to argue that your version of 2 is invalid, as I don't know it nor have I seen it performed.  The point I'm trying to make is that the original SKK 2 is teaching some useful lessons, and to scrap it in favor a different technique that doesn't necessarily honor those lessons is, in my opinion, short changing the art and its' practitioners.  My observations and resulting commentary in my last post are based on what I've read in this thread and my experiences over the years.  You may not agree, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.  And you could say the same ...


----------



## DavidCC

Mark L said:


> David,
> I'm not going to argue that your version of 2 is invalid, as I don't know it nor have I seen it performed. The point I'm trying to make is that the original SKK 2 is teaching some useful lessons, and to scrap it in favor a different technique that doesn't necessarily honor those lessons is, in my opinion, short changing the art and its' practitioners. My observations and resulting commentary in my last post are based on what I've read in this thread and my experiences over the years. You may not agree, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. And you could say the same ...


 
We can disagree about the merits of the techniques but I think it is a hasty judgement to say our training is inadequate, and you are wrong about that.

We didn't scrap #2, we changed it.  You said earlier that you had 2 things you took from #2 - (1) relentlessly pushing the depth of the encounter, and (2) fighting with one hand.

Our version also teaches (1) quite well, and we don't consider (2) to be a lesson important enough to warrant being a central theme of a technique. 

Instead we use combo 2 to teach about (a) controlling follow-up strikes, (b) double-factor blocking, and (c) fighting from "inside" at very close range and of course (d) driving forward (pushing the depth).  In our opinion, a,b,and c are more important than (2).  We can teach (2) using ANY technique.  Therefore I don't believe our students are gettign short-changed by our version of #2 :asian:


----------



## DavidCC

marlon said:


> just want to point out that while the techn (#2) is fast and effective as a one handed technique there is no reason to assume that the other hand is doing nothing.
> i am enjoying the discussion btw
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 

One thing I picked up from my exposure to SL-4 is it's extreme level of detail.  If the written technique is not describing any activity for my left hand, what should it be doing?  It can be doing any number of things, which can be classified anywhere ranging from very detrimental to very effective.  I prefer the most effective.  If the student is left to assume or imagine some activity for the ignored hand, what are the chances they will discover the most effective thing for it to be doing?  This is why I always account for all the body parts when teaching or doing techniques 

So what do YOU do with your left in #2????

-D


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> "Then I think the training you're receiving is inadequate."
> 
> I think you leap to judgement on far too few facts.
> 
> 
> "Right handed people almost always take a stance with the left hand forward, think boxers."
> 
> Untrained right handed people that is...
> We don't model our execution on boxers, and we don't train to fight weak-side forward. Beginners, when first facing a full-speed continuous attack, often fall back on emulating what they've seen boxers or kick boxers do; but they are taught to use kempo and stop doing that as they train more.
> My point was that the right hand does most of the striking so it seems most likely to be injured. That's just a guess though.
> 
> 
> "I don't recall saying anything about elbow position, hands on guard at all times. "
> 
> Well, what is the left hand doing in the standard #2? Hovering by your left ear or in front of your SP? Tucked into your belt or hanging limp LOL??
> 
> 
> "Nor did I say the technique was simulating an injury, just that it uses the same hand throughout. "
> 
> Well, not you but some others said that one reason for training to fight with one arm was because injury was likely, and one salient point in #2 was fighting with 1 arm... so at least part of the purpose of teaching #2 as a 1-armed technique was to train for situations where your left arm might be injured...


 

No sir, you made a point of why would we be fighting with one arm?  With a LOL attached.  Myself and kidswarrior made points of why we would practice fighting with one arm but never said that it was the reasoning to #2.  That was all you.  On our #2 (speaking for myself), as we block with our right arm the left hand is always on the right cheeck.  Taught to the lower ranks of kempo to keep it simple, as a gaurd in case of the 2nd punch.  The reality is that it counters the grab/fall forward that you are worried about. If the person is able to go into you before you fire off the back punch the open tiger gaurd gouges eys and a new technique begins.  As for the untrained fighter issue I did not understand that.  To not train Kempo against boxers does not make sense to me.  A good chunck of these techniques were developed to defend against the boxer.  The people who are just going to be attacking you in the streets for no good reason probably have some fighting experience and if they dont you will not see them coming.  The people you have to worry about in the streets are the ones who have no problem picking a fight with you. Those are the ones that know what they are doing and you need to be prepared for that.  The untrained fighters will either get their one lucky punch in or they will lose fast to a more trained martial artists.
Jesse


----------



## 14 Kempo

I was and am taught to stay true to the original combinations. I teach this way as well. We are all different for various reasons; age, weight, frame, stature, and what not ... not all of the combinations, or any techniques for that matter, work for every person in its original format, but each has its concepts, theories and movements that they are designed to teach. First and foremost it is necessary to understand those concepts and movements. Making adjustments to a technique while holding true to it is not a problem. However, teaching the next person to "do it my way" may or may not work for them dependent on who and what they are. We believe in teaching it in its original format and allowing the individual, with some guidance, to grow with it as we were allowed to do.
In my mind, there is no need to change the original. The original will always be just that, the original. Any change is simply another technique, it can be called a combination, kempo, technique, whatever, you name it. We try to hold true to the founders, there is a reason why these techniques were added to the system. 
There's my two cents ... nice discussion, keep it going!!


----------



## Mark L

DavidCC said:


> We didn't scrap #2, we changed it.


I re-read the description of your #2, the only thing in common with the original SKK #2 is the initial footwork, block, and eventually a backfist.  I see no elbow to the SP with a shuffle, heel sweep with more shuffling, groin attack, leg control.  Your insistence on "changed" instead of "scrapped" isn't consistent with an examination of the two techniques.

I won't comment on this topic anymore, as it seems you are unwilling to empty your cup.


----------



## kidswarrior

RevIV said:


> To not train Kempo against boxers does not make sense to me.  A good chunck of these techniques were developed to defend against the boxer.  The people who are just going to be attacking you in the streets for no good reason probably have some fighting experience and if they dont you will not see them coming.  The people you have to worry about in the streets are the ones who have no problem picking a fight with you. Those are the ones that know what they are doing and you need to be prepared for that.
> Jesse


Unfortunately, this is true. I work with a segment of the general population which has learned/honed street fighting skills since roughly their elementary school days, and they model their technique on (1) boxing punches, which are (2) thrown in overwhelming strength and number. They expect to win every time, to overwhelm the victim with firepower and surprise. And they've often become very good at it (again, unfortunately). One mostly-reformed teen told me recently, people on the street don't block. Implications: They don't need to, since they have the victim moving backwards; they don't take the time to, since the victim never gets off a shot; and _they have no idea how to handle it when someone blocks them._

The good news to me is, there is not a lot of imagination used by these guys, so you sort of *know* what they're going to do. And as Jesse said, they can be defeated quickly by a well-trained martial artist. Whatever our take on some of the combos, I think we need to believe completely in what we're doing, be prepared for the rawness of street rage, and practice till it's second nature. Just some random thoughts for a Saturday morning. 

BTW, this is one of the better discussions I've seen in awhile, and I hope everyone hangs in with it and as 14 Kempo and Marlon said, let's keep it going. :asian:


----------



## John Bishop

kidswarrior said:


> Unfortunately, this is true. I work with a segment of the general population which has learned/honed street fighting skills since roughly their elementary school days, and they model their technique on (1) boxing punches, which are (2) thrown in overwhelming strength and number. They expect to win every time, to overwhelm the victim with firepower and surprise. And they've often become very good at it (again, unfortunately). One mostly-reformed teen told me recently, people on the street don't block. Implications: They don't need to, since they have the victim moving backwards; they don't take the time to, since the victim never gets off a shot; and _they have no idea how to handle it when someone blocks them._



From the outside (Kajukenbo) looking in, I have to agree with this ascertainment.  Generations of American/European boys have been raised with some boxing lessons from a dad, grand dad, uncle, etc.  
Visit any poor barrio or ghetto.  You won't see very many people paying a $100.00 a month  for martial arts lessons, but you will probably find some community sponsored boxing clubs.   
You get into a fight with one of these individuals, and I can just about guarantee you that they will not step in and try and punch you in the chest, while chambering their other hand to their waist.  
Even if you don't want to deviate from your traditional sets and change them, you should still consider adding punch defenses against typical boxer type punches.  Things like a right "cross", "jab & cross" combination,  "cross and hook"  combinations, "grab and punch" combinations, "grab from behind"  and punch combinations.

Kidswarrior: I see your in Rancho Cuc.  I'd be nice to someday get together and exchange ideas sometimes.


----------



## marlon

John Bishop said:


> From the outside (Kajukenbo) looking in, I .
> Even if you don't want to deviate from your traditional sets and change them, you should still consider adding punch defenses against typical boxer type punches. Things like a right "cross", "jab & cross" combination, "cross and hook" combinations, "grab and punch" combinations, "grab from behind" and punch combinations.
> 
> Yes yes yes yes!!  without this in the training of you techniques you might as well be dancing.  eExcellent point to direct us to master Bishop.  The body mechanics of the combos and the animal/ kempos are very functional against these attacks and more but the must be worked.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


----------



## marlon

DavidCC said:


> One thing I picked up from my exposure to SL-4 is it's extreme level of detail. If the written technique is not describing any activity for my left hand, what should it be doing? It can be doing any number of things, which can be classified anywhere ranging from very detrimental to very effective. I prefer the most effective. If the student is left to assume or imagine some activity for the ignored hand, what are the chances they will discover the most effective thing for it to be doing? This is why I always account for all the body parts when teaching or doing techniques
> 
> So what do YOU do with your left in #2????
> 
> -D


 

well i do not have that level of written detail nor do i give thatmuch to my students.  My thoughts on this matter is NOT to create clones.  I am not saying that sl-4 does at all, i am merely explaining my reasons for not going in to the minutae of detail.  One of Prof.I's favorite sayings when teaching a form or a technique is..."or"  i  like this.  In anycase every interatcion is a relationship and is dynamic therefore my response / or better yet my leading of the interaction needs be dynamic as well.  So with a proper structural base and understanding of movement, alignment, power and opportunity the left hand in #2 may be a positional check; a grab of the opponent a lower body strike as the back 2 knuckle strikes the head up and back the contact of the left hand can guide the positioning of the attacker for the follow up elbow, after the elbow it can defend against a possible kick or an incedental kick as the attacker is taken down; if the person had being striking lefty as you blocked the left hand can provide the counter balance on the offending arm as your back 2 knuckle strike extends from underneath the offending elbow...and on.  the point is we do not train with opne arm hanging around our waist or ankles and with it properly positioned much can be done with it.
i really like sl-4 from what i know of it which is little so i naturally teach things differently.  With the higher belts i go into an extreme amount of detail about why a technique will work or not and where we can go with it and we often discuss what makes sense ands what is crap, yet i do not set these things in stone, i point out what i see and why and how and hopefully they grow from there asnd may yet come back and teach me things...then i will have donme a good job...imho

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Mark L

marlon said:


> well i do not have that level of written detail nor do i give thatmuch to my students.  My thoughts on this matter is NOT to create clones.  I am not saying that sl-4 does at all, i am merely explaining my reasons for not going in to the minutae of detail.  One of Prof.I's favorite sayings when teaching a form or a technique is..."or"  i  like this.  In anycase every interatcion is a relationship and is dynamic therefore my response / or better yet my leading of the interaction needs be dynamic as well.  So with a proper structural base and understanding of movement, alignment, power and opportunity the left hand in #2 may be a positional check; a grab of the opponent a lower body strike as the back 2 knuckle strikes the head up and back the contact of the left hand can guide the positioning of the attacker for the follow up elbow, after the elbow it can defend against a possible kick or an incedental kick as the attacker is taken down; if the person had being striking lefty as you blocked the left hand can provide the counter balance on the offending arm as your back 2 knuckle strike extends from underneath the offending elbow...and on.  the point is we do not train with opne arm hanging around our waist or ankles and with it properly positioned much can be done with it.
> i really like sl-4 from what i know of it which is little so i naturally teach things differently.  With the higher belts i go into an extreme amount of detail about why a technique will work or not and where we can go with it and we often discuss what makes sense ands what is crap, yet i do not set these things in stone, i point out what i see and why and how and hopefully they grow from there asnd may yet come back and teach me things...then i will have donme a good job...imho
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


An exceptional attitude towards teaching _and_ learning from any given technique!


----------



## kidswarrior

John Bishop said:


> Kidswarrior: I see your in Rancho Cuc.  I'd be nice to someday get together and exchange ideas sometimes.


I'd like that. Shoot me a PM when you see some daylight in your schedule, and we can compare days and times.


----------



## Hand Sword

Not a combo, but kind of is by itself. The 10 pt. and plum tree blocking sytems. I bring it up due to watching a bunch of youtubes and came across this by Master Rebelo.  (



) I saw the connection immediately. Give it look all and see what you think. Then ask, a blocking system, or closer to what is shown 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ?

Thanks Master Rebelo!! :asian: :asian: :asian:


----------



## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> Not a combo, but kind of is by itself. The 10 pt. and plum tree blocking sytems. I bring it up due to watching a bunch of youtubes and came across this by Master Rebelo. (
> 
> 
> 
> ) I saw the connection immediately. Give it look all and see what you think. Then ask, a blocking system, or closer to what is shown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> Thanks Master Rebelo!! :asian: :asian: :asian:


 

I second  that thanks to ,master Rebello.  Shihan has a great discussion of the ten point blocking applications on his video, also.  BTw it also reminded me of plum tree.  these are great to work reaction drills and flow from these situations and the blocking systems to finish the attacker.  Of course we need to keep in mind and add to what we do the other hand and body postitioning.  Great point Handsword. thanks...is there enough here for another thread?

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## DavidCC

I missed a lot of posts over the weekend  

in no particular order...

I brought up 'trained fighters' in reference to the point of which arm was most likely to be injured. Mark wrote that most right handed people will take a stance left forward. My reply to that was most UNTRAINED people would take that stance, but that we, at my school, train right lead - I wasn;t talking at all aoubt the stance of the attacker. My point was that the hand that is most active, and in SKK combos that appears to be the right hand, is the most likely to be injured.

Jesse, Mark was the only one who suggested that #2 had a core principle of learning to fight one handed. Although many wrote that this was a good lesson, and I agree it is, I just don't think that it is important enough to design a one-handed technique to be part of the rank requirements. And if I did it would be a left handed tech since the right is most likely to be injured IMHO. I spoke to my teacher and his opinion is that we could train ANY technique to be done (or at least examined) with either hand injured.

==========
left hand at right cheek "... it counters the grab/fall forward..." interesting, I will def. look at that  that makes a lot more sense than blocking a left punch LOL

======

'I re-read the description of your #2, the only thing in common with the original SKK #2 is the initial footwork, block, and eventually a backfist. I see no elbow to the SP with a shuffle, heel sweep with more shuffling, groin attack, leg control'

I think our 2 versions have these things in common: the principle of attacking from "inside" the attacker; the principle of manipulation of posture through attacking targets on the center line; the principle of controlling height by attacking the groin and head alternately; the principle of controlling depth through manipulating the control of height. 

By changing the technique we also have added : controlling width through double-factor blocking; using attacker's involuntary body reactions to add force to our strikes; striking with body momentum (shuffle&strike); and being prepared for follow-up attacks.

We don't do the leg sweep/groin attack in #2, but it sounds a LOT like what we do in our version of #26. 

=============

I'm not sure if y'all are aware of this or not, but I didn't change these technqiues  I am only a green belt, about to test for brown. I play with some of them to work with SL-4 or YiLiQuan or Uechi Ryu or whatever new knowledge I got... but I don;t teach any of that to anyone.

The guy who did has his own ideas about what is most, somewhat, and least effective and practical, and he rearranged what he knew into his own take on SKK mixed with what he knew of Goju Ryu and Cerios Kenpo and some other stuff. So some of our techniques that are different than yours you will see for example almost move for move on a Cerio Kenpo Hands tape! but really how many of the techs you are doing were taught by Sonny Gascon or George Pesare or Nick Cerio? So when you confess a loyalty to "the original" I have to wonder "which original?" Keeping the old for the sake of tradition is of course nothing any of us would do on purpose. 

My point is that our system of SKK is not just randomly changed versions of USSD or FV's SKK. It all works together and while it isn't perfect (at leat to my green belt eyes) it's not just " I never liked that technique so I'll just drop it" either.

Also until recnetly I was on an "***'t Instructor" program where I was teaching some kids and sometimes an adult class but I had to put that on hold for a while so now I just train myself.

============

"BTW, this is one of the better discussions I've seen in awhile, and I hope everyone hangs in with it and as 14 Kempo and Marlon said, let's keep it going. " - Awesome, me too. 


"nice discussion, keep it going!! " - I agree 

"I won't comment on this topic anymore, as it seems you are unwilling to empty your cup. " :erg: 
what, you need someone to catch the overflow from yours???   Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I am not considering what you say. I just disagree with you on some things, for example, the quality of training at my school or our short-changing of our students. Those remarks were kindof rude, Mark, and not helpful to a good discussion.


----------



## DavidCC

marlon said:


> I second that thanks to ,master Rebello. Shihan has a great discussion of the ten point blocking applications on his video, also. BTw it also reminded me of plum tree. these are great to work reaction drills and flow from these situations and the blocking systems to finish the attacker. Of course we need to keep in mind and add to what we do the other hand and body postitioning. Great point Handsword. thanks...is there enough here for another thread?
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 

I can't wait to see this vid on 10-pt, but have hard time getting to YT at work :/  We train 10-pt as a breath control form (meditative), not with applications.  I got an interesting writeup on that once from Joe Shuras, I wonder if I can find that anywhere and re-post it... Honestly it is not a big part of what we train and I'm not sure why we still carry it, so hopefully this video will inspire some new love for it around here


----------



## marlon

DavidCC said:


> I can't wait to see this vid on 10-pt, but have hard time getting to YT at work :/ We train 10-pt as a breath control form (meditative), not with applications. I got an interesting writeup on that once from Joe Shuras, I wonder if I can find that anywhere and re-post it... Honestly it is not a big part of what we train and I'm not sure why we still carry it, so hopefully this video will inspire some new love for it around here


 
the yt vid is not on ten pt. blocking but you can 'see' ten pt. in the moves he demonstrates. the vid is on jujitsu.

marlon


----------



## DavidCC

DavidCC said:


> I had to put that on hold for a while so now I just train myself.


 
I'm still in class, training, just not teaching.


----------



## DavidCC

marlon said:


> the yt vid is not on ten pt. blocking but you can 'see' ten pt. in the moves he demonstrates. the vid is on jujitsu.
> 
> marlon


 
Well that sounds cool too.  We do lots of JJ, some of us go for private and group lessons (a group from our school that is) at a local MMA school a couple times a year, and some of their seminars


----------



## Hand Sword

marlon said:


> I second that thanks to ,master Rebello. Shihan has a great discussion of the ten point blocking applications on his video, also. BTw it also reminded me of plum tree. these are great to work reaction drills and flow from these situations and the blocking systems to finish the attacker. Of course we need to keep in mind and add to what we do the other hand and body postitioning. Great point Handsword. thanks...is there enough here for another thread?
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 

I guess another thread can come of it. Less of a topic has generated some in the past-lol.

As for my post, I dunno why...it just struck me in a "WoW" moment for some reason. Maybe overstudying for finals, overtired, ... I dunno. It just struck me that theses "blocking systems" were always taught, and applied as blocks. Here, Master Rebello is talking about something from another system, and BOOM! The movements stood out immediately and were identical. So I started wondering (in my foggy state-lol) Were these "blocking" systems? Did those that teach this ever see these applications before? I know they probably have, as would any serious student. But sometimes you get that OH! moment, even for the obvious. That V8 slap off the forehead so to speak. I dunno, I just had to share what I saw I guess. Then again, I'm even foggier now lol. Am I making sense as to my reason? If so, god bless any of you who are following me, if not, oh well, back to my studies! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :asian:


----------



## kidswarrior

Hand Sword said:


> Not a combo, but kind of is by itself. The 10 pt. and plum tree blocking sytems. I bring it up due to watching a bunch of youtubes and came across this by Master Rebelo.  (
> 
> 
> 
> ) I saw the connection immediately. Give it look all and see what you think. Then ask, a blocking system, or closer to what is shown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> Thanks Master Rebelo!! :asian: :asian: :asian:


Yeah, the more I reflect on what was demo'd, the more I can see what you mean. Have to go back and look again after practicing the 10-pt. a few times--it's been awhile.



			
				marlon said:
			
		

> Shihan has a great discussion of the ten point blocking applications on his video, also.


Is there a link, Marlon? To me, the 10 point has always been intriguing, but I learned no application. So it's either reverse engineer at some point, or as David said, restrict it to a meditative exercise; or, if there's already a good application vid around...?


----------



## Hand Sword

Think of applying #2 combo off of a lapel grab. Might explain the use of one hand as the other pins/traps the grabbing hand, then the flow into the elbow.


----------



## DavidCC

kidswarrior said:


> Is there a link, Marlon? To me, the 10 point has always been intriguing, but I learned no application.


 
that's a relief, I was worried I might be the only one LOL


----------



## marlon

kidswarrior said:


> Yeah, the more I reflect on what was demo'd, the more I can see what you mean. Have to go back and look again after practicing the 10-pt. a few times--it's been awhile.
> 
> Is there a link, Marlon? To me, the 10 point has always been intriguing, but I learned no application. So it's either reverse engineer at some point, or as David said, restrict it to a meditative exercise; or, if there's already a good application vid around...?


 

not on yt or anything.  He teaches it that way and i am sure it is on one of his dvd's ...probably green belt or green stripe.
you can ask him at www.shaolinkempo.com

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## kidswarrior

marlon said:


> not on yt or anything. He teaches it that way and i am sure it is on one of his dvd's ...probably green belt or green stripe.
> you can ask him at www.shaolinkempo.com
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


OK, thanks.


----------



## Hand Sword

Alright, sticking with the ot, how about making #5 combo a defense against a round house kick, as you move up the circle?


----------



## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> Alright, sticking with the ot, how about making #5 combo a defense against a round house kick, as you move up the circle?


 

or against a spinning back fist...what do you mean "as you move up the circle"?

respectfully,

Marlon


----------



## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> In my opinion #2 is probably the most versatile combo in the system which fits into this discussion. This defensive manuever can be used with little or no adjustment off a right or left straight punch (step through or not), right hook, right side club, right high roundhouse kick, right or left one hand push, two hand push, left lapel grab, left lapel grab with right hook, right lapel grab and that is without adding or making major adjustments.
> 
> Try a few and tell me what you think or if you have others I would love to hear them. It is also a great manuever to graft other techniques with.


 
Sorry I've neglected this thread.  Jumping back in though.   Looking at your attacks above, everything seems like it'd work just fine.  Sure, a slight adjustment step or two may be needed, but for the most part, the tech. in its original form can be used.

Mike


----------



## MJS

DavidCC said:


> lets' see.....
> 
> 
> box step, w/inward rt block, then outward left parry (right hand does outward block at same time)
> right hammer to temple, then double punch (left thrust to SolPlex / right backfist to nose)
> rolling hammer to groin, rising ridge hand under chin
> 
> we train Kyusho strikes too, so a good hammer to the points just below the elbow (on the initial block) can cause right leg to collapse... maybe just I need to block softer LOL.


 

Interesting variation.  Slightly changes the way I originally learned it and the way I usually have seen it done, but if it works...

Mike


----------



## MJS

DavidCC said:


> Many of our techniques are different than standard SKK combos, either changed to teach differnet principles or movements, or just completely replaced. (I detailed a bit of that over on Matt's kempoinfo.com)
> 
> I'm glad we don't do it one-handed  what's that teach, how to fight if your left hand is choppd off LOL
> 
> Our version does indeed drive attacker backwards too. Maybe even more because we are hitting on 6-12 with both hands!
> 
> The take-aways I get from our version of #2:
> 
> it's our first tech that addresses follow-up attacks
> learn the risks/rewards of fighting "inside"
> first tech that uses "double-tap" blocking - block&parry
> rising elbow - Like I said earlier, I have used #2 as a vehicle for experimenting with the SL-4 kenpo pricniples and information I got from Doc Chapel. The SL-4 variation I practice does use the rising elbow, and is scary effective.


 
I have performed this tech. the way I learned it...with using just the right hand.  Of course, the left hand is not hanging dead, its still checking.  IMO, every tech. even the ones that I do today, which are not SKK, involve both hands.  Granted one hand may do more work than the other but nonetheless, its still an active part of the tech.

Mike


----------



## MJS

Mark L said:


> The thread is about SKK techniques, you don't practice one of the original combinations. I'm not really interested in a long debate on the subject, but replacing a core technique so you can teach a "different principle or movement" leaves a hole. You don't have to sacrifice one for the other. Getting injured in a fight is a high probability, why wouldn't you practice dealing with a likely occurrence?


 
Yes, thats correct.  I started this thread as a spin off from another, and yes, the intent was to talk about the SKK techniques against different attacks while at the same time, doing our best to keep the same ideas, concepts, principles, etc. 

Mike


----------



## MJS

Lets take a look at #3.  Seems like it would work well against the right punch, a rt. jab, a rt. push or 2 hand push and a lapel grab with the rt. hand.  Unless I'm missing it, I'm not seeing much off of a left side attack.


----------



## RevIV

Hand Sword said:


> Alright, sticking with the ot, how about making #5 combo a defense against a round house kick, as you move up the circle?


 

Have you been watching the old Ted Tabura tapes from his Lima Lama (sorry if i spelled that wrong) from Panther productions.  He does combo#5 on that tape off of a roundhouse kick.  He also does the move from Sho Tan Kwa with the simotaneus Left backfist right back heal kick.  Makes you wonder what else couldve come from tapes or books that are in the system.


----------



## RevIV

MJS said:


> Lets take a look at #3. Seems like it would work well against the right punch, a rt. jab, a rt. push or 2 hand push and a lapel grab with the rt. hand. Unless I'm missing it, I'm not seeing much off of a left side attack.


 
Do it backwards..  Sorry, just having fun, getting ready for my long weekend and then a busy end of the month.


----------



## Hand Sword

RevIV said:


> Have you been watching the old Ted Tabura tapes from his Lima Lama (sorry if i spelled that wrong) from Panther productions. He does combo#5 on that tape off of a roundhouse kick. He also does the move from Sho Tan Kwa with the simotaneus Left backfist right back heal kick. Makes you wonder what else couldve come from tapes or books that are in the system.


 
Actually, I've never seen it. I was just speculating about the combos movements. The reason for all of these crossovers IMHO is because All of the material goes back to men that trained together. They all got the same techniques from which to build from. They have slight variations, but the connections are tangible.

As an example: http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week26/TipOfTheWeekMedW25.html

Not exact, but almost identical, with slight adjustments.


----------



## JTKenpo

Hand Sword said:


> Alright, sticking with the ot, how about making #5 combo a defense against a round house kick, as you move up the circle?


 
LOve it!!  as I hear in my kids favorite show dragon tails.  Sorry.

I would change the block to a universal block though, easy enough just let the hands seperate more and cross your arms as if doing an x block to the side (for those who do not know what a universal block is).

Marlon, walking up the circle is a AK term.  From your starting point picture a circle where the bottom or 6 oclock is at your feet and and the top or 12 oclock is directly in front of you.  Walking up the circle means taking your back leg (in this case your left) and sliding it counter clockwise from 6 to say 4:30 ish.


----------



## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> Lets take a look at #3. Seems like it would work well against the right punch, a rt. jab, a rt. push or 2 hand push and a lapel grab with the rt. hand. Unless I'm missing it, I'm not seeing much off of a left side attack.


 
Doing #3 off a left side is very interesting to me as this is normally an outside technique and this makes it an inside technique.  The left hand now grabs the inside of the right shoulder further out then a lapel grab, and pushes back a bit to momentarily check the right hand (or you can wrap there right arm with your left).  Right punch goes to groin, back punch to head (now we are at there center line, wait werent we here for #2) grab the back of the head to pull down and give the man a cement facial.


----------



## Hand Sword

JTKenpo said:


> LOve it!! as I hear in my kids favorite show dragon tails. Sorry.
> 
> I would change the block to a universal block though, easy enough just let the hands seperate more and cross your arms as if doing an x block to the side (for those who do not know what a universal block is).


 
I agree with that. I think if you parry it as opposed to blocking it, in order to pull into the back punch, your arms end up in that anyway.


----------



## DavidCC

My concerns would be

1) a roundhouse kick delivered correctly could easily damage the blocking arms... however this can be mitigated somewhat as you guys described.  I wouldn't use the wrist/hand block from #5 vs roundhouse kick.

2) using 2 hands to block one leg attack is going to make it very easy to punch you in the head, especially if you block that kick, stopping its motion, the punch is automatic and your hands are busy.  Parry the kick, distort the balance / spacial perception etc and the punch is not such a concern, but then how much liek 5 is this at that point?

IMHO The follw-up left punch in #5 is not such a concern because having control of the right arm, pulling it to 6, cancels the power of the left punch long enough to retaliate.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> My concerns would be
> 
> 2) using 2 hands to block one leg attack is going to make it very easy to punch you in the head, especially if you block that kick, stopping its motion, the punch is automatic and your hands are busy. Parry the kick, distort the balance / spacial perception etc and the punch is not such a concern, but then how much liek 5 is this at that point?
> quote]
> 
> In this particular case I am not worried about the follow up punch because it is after a roundhouse.  In order for him to hit me with the punch he has to bring his weight off the one leg and kind of load the punch so to speak.  That should give me ample time for the right back punch to the head, which again will stop the follow up and then add my own side kick.  Also the back punch will be hitting him as the kicking leg comes down which will create more power due to opposing motion.


----------



## Hand Sword

DavidCC said:


> My concerns would be
> 
> 1) a roundhouse kick delivered correctly could easily damage the blocking arms... however this can be mitigated somewhat as you guys described. I wouldn't use the wrist/hand block from #5 vs roundhouse kick.
> 
> 2) using 2 hands to block one leg attack is going to make it very easy to punch you in the head, especially if you block that kick, stopping its motion, the punch is automatic and your hands are busy. Parry the kick, distort the balance / spacial perception etc and the punch is not such a concern, but then how much liek 5 is this at that point?
> 
> IMHO The follw-up left punch in #5 is not such a concern because having control of the right arm, pulling it to 6, cancels the power of the left punch long enough to retaliate.


 
If you move up the circle as I described that will cover points 1 and 2. The kick loses power after it "turns the corner" and any following punch will be avoided. Also, if done like the "Intellectual departure" example (funny how identical these two techniques are hmm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








), your shots will land before their kicking leg does, off balancing them.


----------



## JTKenpo

Hand Sword said:


> If you move up the circle as I described that will cover points 1 and 2. The kick loses power after it "turns the corner" and any following punch will be avoided. Also, if done like the "Intellectual departure" example (funny how identical these two techniques are hmm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), your shots will land before their kicking leg does, off balancing them.


 
Do you mean swinging pendulum?  Yes I agree very similar.


----------



## MJS

RevIV said:


> Do it backwards.. Sorry, just having fun, getting ready for my long weekend and then a busy end of the month.


 

LOL! Hey Jesse!!  Actually I was thinking about that...but, you know some people don't feel that it serves a purpose to do the techs. on the other side.  For myself, I do perform them on both sides.  

Have a great weekend!!

Mike


----------



## Hand Sword

JTKenpo said:


> Do you mean swinging pendulum? Yes I agree very similar.


 That could work also as it's similar as well. The example from Mr. Tatum that I used fits with the block (your arm ends up that way), move up, back knuckle and kick.


----------



## 14 Kempo

MJS said:


> LOL! Hey Jesse!! Actually I was thinking about that...but, you know some people don't feel that it serves a purpose to do the techs. on the other side. For myself, I do perform them on both sides.
> 
> Have a great weekend!!
> 
> Mike


 
Both sides is far different from 'backwards'  : )


----------



## DavidCC

Hand Sword said:


> If you move up the circle as I described that will cover points 1 and 2. The kick loses power after it "turns the corner" and any following punch will be avoided.


 
If we aren't concerned with the kick's power, why not just let the kick roll of the top of the thigh after moving up the circle as shown by Prof. Cerio in his Kenpo Hands tape?

also 

not sure how all punches could be avoided by this footwork?


----------



## Hand Sword

I'd rather not just let a kick hit me in the leg, but, it can just roll off w/o damage. The arms are used as a guide to draw into your shots. As for the footwork, coming off a round kick, wher you're at and how they land (remember too, your shot hits them before or at the moment of their landing, as they parry off you.) They are squared with you. Not a good position to throw a shot.


----------



## Hand Sword

Hand Sword said:


> I'd rather not just let a kick hit me in the leg, but, it can just roll off w/o damage. The arms are used as a guide to draw into your shots. As for the footwork, coming off a round kick, wher you're at and how they land (remember too, your shot hits them before or at the moment of their landing, as they parry off you.) They are squared with you. Not a good position to throw a shot.


 

The arms parry also off balances them by stretching them out after the kick. Trying to maintain or re-establish their balance will overide their trying to throw a punch. Added to that, your own shots, you'll be alright.


----------



## MJS

RevIV said:


> Have you been watching the old Ted Tabura tapes from his Lima Lama (sorry if i spelled that wrong) from Panther productions. He does combo#5 on that tape off of a roundhouse kick. He also does the move from Sho Tan Kwa with the simotaneus Left backfist right back heal kick. Makes you wonder what else couldve come from tapes or books that are in the system.


 

Could you explain this in more detail?  I'm having a hard time picturing #5 used against a roundhouse kick, unless the initial block is changed.  IMO, I wouldn't want to use the block that is used for a punch against a kick.

Mike


----------



## MJS

Hand Sword said:


> I'd rather not just let a kick hit me in the leg, but, it can just roll off w/o damage. The arms are used as a guide to draw into your shots. As for the footwork, coming off a round kick, wher you're at and how they land (remember too, your shot hits them before or at the moment of their landing, as they parry off you.) They are squared with you. Not a good position to throw a shot.


 


Hand Sword said:


> The arms parry also off balances them by stretching them out after the kick. Trying to maintain or re-establish their balance will overide their trying to throw a punch. Added to that, your own shots, you'll be alright.


 
I agree with this.  Even if they did mangane to throw a punch with the kick, if we go with the idea you list, which sounds good to me, I doubt the punch will have much impact.  Catching their balance, as you said, will most likely be their first concern.

Mike


----------



## 14 Kempo

MJS said:


> Could you explain this in more detail? I'm having a hard time picturing #5 used against a roundhouse kick, unless the initial block is changed. IMO, I wouldn't want to use the block that is used for a punch against a kick.
> 
> Mike


 
There is a variation in the block as it applies to a kick. For a punch, some SKK systems use a left knifehand coupled with a right chicken wrist, usually against a straight punch. More of an 'x' block is used, arms meeting at mid forearm, against a hook punch. Another variation is against a roundhouse kick where, if a right roundhouse, the left arm is down, almost straight, the right arm up and across, meeting at about the elbows ... hope I explained that properly, Mr. Dwire would probably be able to do better, if this is in fact what he was talking about. I've also seen this technique done using a #3 block, same as the beginning of combo #2.


----------



## MJS

14 Kempo said:


> There is a variation in the block as it applies to a kick. For a punch, some SKK systems use a left knifehand coupled with a right chicken wrist, usually against a straight punch. More of an 'x' block is used, arms meeting at mid forearm, against a hook punch. Another variation is against a roundhouse kick where, if a right roundhouse, the left arm is down, almost straight, the right arm up and across, meeting at about the elbows ... hope I explained that properly, Mr. Dwire would probably be able to do better, if this is in fact what he was talking about. I've also seen this technique done using a #3 block, same as the beginning of combo #2.


 
Thanks!   There are some techs in the Parker/Tracy line that use the last block you mention.


----------



## 14 Kempo

MJS said:


> Thanks!  There are some techs in the Parker/Tracy line that use the last block you mention.


 
No problem, glad it was readable. Maybe some other will be able to add or elaborate. Oh, and yes to the EPAK thing, I've seen Mr. Tatum use the block in some videos.


----------



## Hand Sword

14 Kempo said:


> There is a variation in the block as it applies to a kick. For a punch, some SKK systems use a left knifehand coupled with a right chicken wrist, usually against a straight punch. More of an 'x' block is used, arms meeting at mid forearm, against a hook punch. Another variation is against a roundhouse kick where, if a right roundhouse, the left arm is down, almost straight, the right arm up and across, meeting at about the elbows ... hope I explained that properly, Mr. Dwire would probably be able to do better, if this is in fact what he was talking about. I've also seen this technique done using a #3 block, same as the beginning of combo #2.


 

Thank You!!! I was getting frustrated not being able to word the block correctly. I kept thinking of how point fighters would cover their bodies in that fashion, with their arms crossed together.  Anyway, when we would do the technique the chicken wrist/knife block flowed into what you described, as you stretched them out and into your strike.


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> Could you explain this in more detail? I'm having a hard time picturing #5 used against a roundhouse kick, unless the initial block is changed. IMO, I wouldn't want to use the block that is used for a punch against a kick.
> 
> Mike


 

step in and start with the block above the knee of the offending leg.

marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

To "borrow an idea" or in this case a phrase...."whatever the attitude so is the response"

How about #6 used against a right front kick?

Move off the angle, as you would slipping the jab, right hand is low to check/parry/block which ever may be needed, left hand is high checking the punch and the kick goes to the groin under the opposing kick...


----------



## DavidCC

If you move off line and respond with a linear kick, isn't that just #7?  I mean, depending on how you define #7, is the side kick necessary for it to be 7?


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> If you move off line and respond with a linear kick, isn't that just #7? I mean, depending on how you define #7, is the side kick necessary for it to be 7?


 
The way I was taught, David, you are exactly correct. #7's basic principle is to move off the line and respond with a linear kick. Whether it be a front, side or back kick does not matter.


----------



## JTKenpo

14 Kempo said:


> The way I was taught, David, you are exactly correct. #7's basic principle is to move off the line and respond with a linear kick. Whether it be a front, side or back kick does not matter.


 
I believe there is more to it than that, not that I think what you are saying is incorrect.  We vary the natural weapon due to target as well.  The side kick is an identifyable mark of #7 and is also not a good weapon to hit the groin, while #6 the strike regardless of weapon is to the groin.  So could this be construed as #7 well yes because as you mention we are moving off the line and striking with a linear kick.  Is it #6, well yes becuase you are slipping the attack and striking the groin with a front kick.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> If you move off line and respond with a linear kick, isn't that just #7? I mean, depending on how you define #7, is the side kick necessary for it to be 7?


 
I do agree here, exept for the target area.  I believe the intent of #7 is to strike the ribs not the groin and the intent of #6 is to strike the groin.  The interesting thing I see here is how they cross paths when we change the attack or how each principle compliments one another.


----------



## 14 Kempo

JTKenpo said:


> I believe there is more to it than that, not that I think what you are saying is incorrect. We vary the natural weapon due to target as well. The side kick is an identifyable mark of #7 and is also not a good weapon to hit the groin, while #6 the strike regardless of weapon is to the groin. So could this be construed as #7 well yes because as you mention we are moving off the line and striking with a linear kick. Is it #6, well yes becuase you are slipping the attack and striking the groin with a front kick.


 
We'll probably need to agree to disagree here. I see the principle of the technique as "move off the line, deliver a linear kick." #7 is usually deployed when a person is a bit late to deploy #6. I never use the traditional #7 to the groin, you're correct, a side kick doesn't work well to the groin. But still the principle of moving off the line is the one key difference between #6 and #7 ... IMO ... I do not see the target area as a key principle in these two techniques. As you stated, not saying you are incorrect, that's not my place. I'll leave that to people far more experienced than myself.


----------



## DavidCC

We target the solar plexus in #6.

moving (we teach a hop) to 730 for #7, then kicking back to 130, presentsa real challenge for generating power becasue your body momentum is in the opposite direction.

How do you address this?

If you try to kick too quickly, power and balance are weak, however you can catch them on the downside of the haymaker.  I find that if I use my left leg as a spring, absorbing my momentum and launching it back to 130, this take 1/2 beat longer but... in that half beat Mr. Attacker is probably going to turn to attack me, and he will eat my side kick with full momentum behind it, right down the center to his solar plexus, best case is he is throwing a left punch, because then he adds his momentum too


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> We target the solar plexus in #6.
> 
> moving (we teach a hop) to 730 for #7, then kicking back to 130, presentsa real challenge for generating power becasue your body momentum is in the opposite direction.
> 
> How do you address this?


 
This shouldn't pose a problem for power in fact it should help.  As long as your power is in a straight line (7:30 to 1:30) your good to go.  I don't do #7 with a hop, I step back to 7:30 and pivot, bracing the angle to deliver the kick to the floating ribs.


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## JTKenpo

14 Kempo said:


> We'll probably need to agree to disagree here. I see the principle of the technique as "move off the line, deliver a linear kick." #7 is usually deployed when a person is a bit late to deploy #6. I never use the traditional #7 to the groin, you're correct, a side kick doesn't work well to the groin. But still the principle of moving off the line is the one key difference between #6 and #7 ... IMO ... I do not see the target area as a key principle in these two techniques. As you stated, not saying you are incorrect, that's not my place. I'll leave that to people far more experienced than myself.


 

Thank you for your input on these two combo's, I never have a problem with different ideas.  There is good and there is better and what ever works better for you is what you should use.  I enjoy exploring my options and the feed back that comes with it.


----------



## 14 Kempo

JTKenpo said:


> This shouldn't pose a problem for power in fact it should help. As long as your power is in a straight line (7:30 to 1:30) your good to go. I don't do #7 with a hop, I step back to 7:30 and pivot, bracing the angle to deliver the kick to the floating ribs.


 
Boy, this isn't my day, I think we may need to disagree on this one as well. We use the movement off the line as a guage. It can be a pivot and lean; step to 730, 900 or even 1030; it can also be a jump to any of those angles ... it all depends on the attacker and what needs to be done to get out of the way and to also deliver the counter attack, that being a linear kick.

This one may throw you all way off, but here goes ... the attacker is coming balls to the wall with a right hand punch. We step off the line towards 1030, just as in combo #3, even ducking under the punch if necessary and deliver what relates to a right back kick to the kidney area as the assailant passes by. It's combo #7 adjusted to the attackers over aggression.


----------



## JTKenpo

14 Kempo said:


> Boy, this isn't my day, I think we may need to disagree on this one as well. We use the movement off the line as a guage. It can be a pivot and lean; step to 730, 900 or even 1030; it can also be a jump to any of those angles ... it all depends on the attacker and what needs to be done to get out of the way and to also deliver the counter attack, that being a linear kick.
> 
> This one may throw you all way off, but here goes ... the attacker is coming balls to the wall with a right hand punch. We step off the line towards 1030, just as in combo #3, even ducking under the punch if necessary and deliver what relates to a right back kick to the kidney area as the assailant passes by. It's combo #7 adjusted to the attackers over aggression.


 
Why not your day?  These are slight differences and also remember that I was changing the attack to a front kick, as the attack changes minor adjustments need to be made to the defensive manuever.  As far as the step forward and duck under...Absolutely especially if they are throwing an overhand right.

No disagreement here!


----------



## kidswarrior

14 Kempo said:


> Boy, this isn't my day, I think we may need to disagree on this one as well. We use the movement off the line as a guage. It can be a pivot and lean; step to 730, 900 or even 1030; it can also be a jump to any of those angles ... it all depends on the attacker and what needs to be done to get out of the way and to also deliver the counter attack, that being a linear kick.


While I teach step to 7:30-kick to 1:30 (prefer knee), would have no problem with any of these adjustments as tactical decisions. 



> This one may throw you all way off, but here goes ... the attacker is coming balls to the wall with a right hand punch. We step off the line towards 1030, just as in combo #3, even ducking under the punch if necessary and deliver what relates to a right back kick to the kidney area as the assailant passes by. It's combo #7 adjusted to the attackers over aggression.


I like it! Think I'll steal it and tell everyone it was my idea.


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> This shouldn't pose a problem for power in fact it should help. As long as your power is in a straight line (7:30 to 1:30) your good to go. I don't do #7 with a hop, I step back to 7:30 and pivot, bracing the angle to deliver the kick to the floating ribs.


 

we do a double block for 6 contact and control with a straight kick

7 is slip and kick...no block
i like the variations and  these discussions...i may steal one or two ideas..but if anyone asks  kidswarrior made me do it  

marlon


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## kidswarrior

marlon said:


> we do a double block for 6 contact and control with a straight kick
> 
> 7 is slip and kick...no block
> i like the variations and  these discussions...


Yeah, didn't realize how much could be gleaned from what I've always thought of as the most basic techs I ever learned. The flow of ideas will certainly effect the way I see and teach them.



> i may steal one or two ideas..*but if anyone asks  kidswarrior made me do it*
> 
> marlon


It's a lie, I tell ya, a vicious lie.


----------



## MJS

marlon said:


> step in and start with the block above the knee of the offending leg.
> 
> marlon


 
Are you still using the knife hand/bent wrist combo for this block?


----------



## Hand Sword

Taking a front, side, or round kick, for me I start with the knife/bent wrist block but slide the arms parrying the kicks, and stretching the attacker out, off balancing them. As I put it earlier, you start that way, and end like those point fighters used to do to protect the body.



As for #6 combo, I was taught originally with no block, just a kick to the gut to outlength a punch with your leg. Then, the kick went to the ribs, with a pressing block. Then, we dragon trapped with a kick to the groin. Last was a dragon trap/ or pressing block and a front ball kick to the groin, gut, or knee. 

#7 combo was originally a side step and side kick to the ribs. Then an instructor from the West coast came in and taught it as a side blade kick. Never liking that for a kick, and getting new, east coaster instructors, it was a side step and and a kick to the knee after the punch goes through. Their weight is forward on that supporting leg and the side kick to the knee drops them.


----------



## Mark L

We do #6 with a double block, kick target is the solar plexus or floating ribs.  Legs are longer than arms 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

#7 side step followed by side thrust kick to the ribs, the step direction and depth is guaged by the depth of attack.  14 Kempo's variation with a back kick is a pretty cool idea, looking forward to trying that out.


----------



## DavidCC

so, not too concerend with body mass moving in one direction, strike going in opposite direction?

and the move to 1030 doubles it... your mass moving to 1030, kick to 430, attacker moving away at same time... your masses are moving away from each other and your kick is chasing him.  How much power can you get on that?  Oh, I know you are going to say "plenty" LOL 

But how much relative to a kick where your masses are moving toward each other and your kick is in line with your momentum? 20%?


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> so, not too concerend with body mass moving in one direction, strike going in opposite direction?
> 
> and the move to 1030 doubles it... your mass moving to 1030, kick to 430, attacker moving away at same time... your masses are moving away from each other and your kick is chasing him. How much power can you get on that? Oh, I know you are going to say "plenty" LOL
> 
> But how much relative to a kick where your masses are moving toward each other and your kick is in line with your momentum? 20%?


 
First of all, if you're doing the technique properly and understand how to root your stance, you are not moving when deploying the kick. Yes, the attacker is moving, agreed, the kick won't be of full power, but will be effective in creating distance between you and the attacker. Can't always think you're going to end things with a single blow.

Secondly, after you avoid the original attack, the attacker's normal response will be to catch himself and right himself, thus he will be correcting himself back into the direction your kick is being delivered from, adding to it a certain amount of force.


----------



## RevIV

Seems like a lot of words to me, Get out of the way, kick real hard, if person does not fall down,,,, repeat.
Now that i have that out of my system....  When i practice this technique there are always variations, I was taught it as dodge Left, pivot and blast with the side thrust kick to ribs, my body more at 7 and theirs at 2 or so.  What do you say we all move to another technique? just a thought.


----------



## MJS

Hand Sword said:


> Taking a front, side, or round kick, for me I start with the knife/bent wrist block but slide the arms parrying the kicks, and stretching the attacker out, off balancing them. As I put it earlier, you start that way, and end like those point fighters used to do to protect the body.


 
I'm not getting a good picture in my mind with this, so I'll need to use an actual body to test it.  Personally, just due to the structure of the hands, I don't feel that this block would be wise to do against a kick.  Again, perhaps if I work it on a body, I'd have a different result.





> As for #6 combo, I was taught originally with no block, just a kick to the gut to outlength a punch with your leg. Then, the kick went to the ribs, with a pressing block. Then, we dragon trapped with a kick to the groin. Last was a dragon trap/ or pressing block and a front ball kick to the groin, gut, or knee.
> 
> #7 combo was originally a side step and side kick to the ribs. Then an instructor from the West coast came in and taught it as a side blade kick. Never liking that for a kick, and getting new, east coaster instructors, it was a side step and and a kick to the knee after the punch goes through. Their weight is forward on that supporting leg and the side kick to the knee drops them.


 
6: I originally learned it with the block and then front kick.  Ribs, groin...whatever target was available.

7: side kick to the ribs is how I learned this.  No block


----------



## MJS

DavidCC said:


> so, not too concerend with body mass moving in one direction, strike going in opposite direction?
> 
> and the move to 1030 doubles it... your mass moving to 1030, kick to 430, attacker moving away at same time... your masses are moving away from each other and your kick is chasing him. How much power can you get on that? Oh, I know you are going to say "plenty" LOL
> 
> But how much relative to a kick where your masses are moving toward each other and your kick is in line with your momentum? 20%?


 


14 Kempo said:


> First of all, if you're doing the technique properly and understand how to root your stance, you are not moving when deploying the kick. Yes, the attacker is moving, agreed, the kick won't be of full power, but will be effective in creating distance between you and the attacker. Can't always think you're going to end things with a single blow.
> 
> Secondly, after you avoid the original attack, the attacker's normal response will be to catch himself and right himself, thus he will be correcting himself back into the direction your kick is being delivered from, adding to it a certain amount of force.


 
I have to agree with 14Kempo on this.  I'm not moving...I've already replanted, when I throw the kick.  I'm also not kicking to 4:30. 

Mike


----------



## DavidCC

Well, this probably gets back to the level of detail in the descriptions etc.  I've gotten accustomed to much more detail in describing and teaching, I guess, than "just move and kick" LOL.  We examine and teach specifically how to use and change your momentum and stuff that it seems most of you guys either just pick up through exposure/osmosis/practice or teach much later than yellow.

We observed a few years ago that the deepest lessons of SKK seemed to be nonverbal, that is, feel it/do it kindof thing.  We set out to change that, so that sortof why I am raising these detailed execution questions...

------------------

'if you're doing the technique properly and understand how to root your stance, you are not moving when deploying the kick'

I guess that depends on what you mean by "not moving".  Look at a tree blown by the wind.  Is it moving?

if you hopped or stepped to 730, and then at some point "stopped moving" towards 730 so that you could kick back to 130, you changed your momentum, whcih is exactly what I was addressing 


"...but will be effective in creating distance between you and the attacker. Can't always think you're going to end things with a single blow."

I try to do just the opposite, unless I am trying to disengage or dealing with multiple attackers etc.  We train to fight at close range.  If you get in close, stay there, don't make or let him make distance.

Second, if the technique doesn't end with the attacker unable to attack you again, why does it stop there?  No I am not assuming that a technique will be done in entirety in a real confrontation, but why train combos that end with you at long range and an attacker who is still able to attack?


-----------

"Secondly, after you avoid the original attack, the attacker's normal response will be to catch himself and right himself, thus he will be correcting himself back into the direction your kick is being delivered from, adding to it a certain amount of force."

Exactly, giving you plenty of time to shift your momentum so that you can get back-up mass into the kick. Which is why I wrote 
"I find that if I use my left leg as a spring, absorbing my momentum and launching it back to 130, this take 1/2 beat longer but... in that half beat Mr. Attacker is probably going to turn to attack me, and he will eat my side kick with full momentum behind it, right down the center to his solar plexus, best case is he is throwing a left punch, because then he adds his momentum too"


----------



## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> I'm not getting a good picture in my mind with this, so I'll need to use an actual body to test it. Personally, just due to the structure of the hands, I don't feel that this block would be wise to do against a kick. Again, perhaps if I work it on a body, I'd have a different result.


 
Think right inward block and left downward block at the same time.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Well, this probably gets back to the level of detail in the descriptions etc. I've gotten accustomed to much more detail in describing and teaching, I guess, than "just move and kick" LOL. We examine and teach specifically how to use and change your momentum and stuff that it seems most of you guys either just pick up through exposure/osmosis/practice or teach much later than yellow.
> 
> We observed a few years ago that the deepest lessons of SKK seemed to be nonverbal, that is, feel it/do it kindof thing. We set out to change that, so that sortof why I am raising these detailed execution questions...
> 
> ------------------
> 
> 'if you're doing the technique properly and understand how to root your stance, you are not moving when deploying the kick'
> 
> I guess that depends on what you mean by "not moving". Look at a tree blown by the wind. Is it moving?
> 
> if you hopped or stepped to 730, and then at some point "stopped moving" towards 730 so that you could kick back to 130, you changed your momentum, whcih is exactly what I was addressing
> 
> 
> "...but will be effective in creating distance between you and the attacker. Can't always think you're going to end things with a single blow."
> 
> I try to do just the opposite, unless I am trying to disengage or dealing with multiple attackers etc. We train to fight at close range. If you get in close, stay there, don't make or let him make distance.
> 
> Second, if the technique doesn't end with the attacker unable to attack you again, why does it stop there? No I am not assuming that a technique will be done in entirety in a real confrontation, but why train combos that end with you at long range and an attacker who is still able to attack?
> 
> 
> -----------
> 
> "Secondly, after you avoid the original attack, the attacker's normal response will be to catch himself and right himself, thus he will be correcting himself back into the direction your kick is being delivered from, adding to it a certain amount of force."
> 
> Exactly, giving you plenty of time to shift your momentum so that you can get back-up mass into the kick. Which is why I wrote
> "I find that if I use my left leg as a spring, absorbing my momentum and launching it back to 130, this take 1/2 beat longer but... in that half beat Mr. Attacker is probably going to turn to attack me, and he will eat my side kick with full momentum behind it, right down the center to his solar plexus, best case is he is throwing a left punch, because then he adds his momentum too"


 
The theory is good but Jesse is right the application can be summed up by move then kick.

I'm not interested in a debate on "my 7 is better then your 7" the only thing I want to point out is that in every situation mentioned previously every one moves then kicks and that is the end of the combo (cross and cover out I hope), so David yes you are ending the combo there.  Thats not to say that will end the confrontation and it isn't to say that it won't.

And yes I think it is time to move on as well, but thats just me.

Does anyone have any interesting attack variations on the next couple of techniques?


----------



## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> every one moves then kicks and that is the end of the combo


 

well, I was trying to discuss HOW to move and HOW to kick for maximum efficiency.  Apparently not an intersting topic LOL.


----------



## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> Think right inward block and left downward block at the same time.


 
Yes, that makes more sense and IMO serves as a more solid block.  I thought it was being suggested, and maybe it is, that the typical block in #5 is used.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> well, I was trying to discuss HOW to move and HOW to kick for maximum efficiency. Apparently not an intersting topic LOL.


 
Its not that it isn't an interesting topic the problem lies with the "I know best, do it my way or be wrong" type attitude.  I'm not saying that anyone actually feels that way but thats how it comes off sounding.  Honestly "HOW to move and HOW to kick".


----------



## RevIV

i say, lets skip the long drawn out discussion of 8 and 9 combo cuz they are just both combo 6 with an extension and we see how long it took on 7, so what do you say about combo 10.  I love it. Simo block and strike, stepping in with right foot, then simo trap and strike to ear continued with a circular flow take down with no sweep followed by knife hands and dislocating the shoulder.  short and simple version.. 
Jesse


----------



## MJS

DavidCC said:


> well, I was trying to discuss HOW to move and HOW to kick for maximum efficiency. Apparently not an intersting topic LOL.


 
Lets talk about it then.  If we look at the description of 7 here, it says...

Step out on a 45 degree angle with the left foot and then deliver a side blade kick with the right foot to the floating ribs, then cross and cover.

So going on that, I interpret that as stepping up not back on the 45. Depending on how the person punches, ie: cross or step thru, the step can be slightly modified. Going on the written version that I linked, will you get max. efficiency?


----------



## MJS

RevIV said:


> i say, lets skip the long drawn out discussion of 8 and 9 combo cuz they are just both combo 6 with an extension and we see how long it took on 7, so what do you say about combo 10. I love it. Simo block and strike, stepping in with right foot, then simo trap and strike to ear continued with a circular flow take down with no sweep followed by knife hands and dislocating the shoulder. short and simple version..
> Jesse


 
I agree, it is a good tech.   As for other possible attacks...a right push, and if the angle is right, a kick as well.


----------



## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> I agree, it is a good tech.  As for other possible attacks...a right push, and if the angle is right, a kick as well.


 

No it must be a step through right straight punch to the chest that is how we will be attacked!!


Ok sorry.....

I think 10 lends itself well to the roundhouse kick attack.  We are stepping into the attack which is where you want to be on any roundhousing motion.  The groin is very exposed for the simo strike (I use a ridge hand).  Then grab the leg and wheel back and let him go for a ride.....Of course we still want to follow up once he gets there.


----------



## Matt

DavidCC said:


> well, I was trying to discuss HOW to move and HOW to kick for maximum efficiency.  Apparently not an intersting topic LOL.



Actually, I'm interested. I think it's a matter of picturing your center mass going  in a direction like this "<" so that you evade the kick but your mass is headed toward your target. 

There seem to be a lot of movements I do that follow that shape.


----------



## kidswarrior

RevIV said:


> Seems like a lot of words to me, Get out of the way, kick real hard, if person does not fall down,,,, repeat.


:lol: NO! We need to keep beating the dead horse! :deadhorse 



			
				RevIV said:
			
		

> ...i say, lets skip the long drawn out discussion of 8 and 9 combo ...so what do you say about combo 10. I love it.


OK, I may need to change my screen name in this section to The Apostate Kempoist...or something jazzier, but along those lines. Cos I've not remained a purist w/ my kempo. Have put some of it through the grid of (an)other art(s). But here goes anyway.

I do 10 as the lunge to 10:30 with a same side knife hand/arm or even a down windmill block (whatever feels natural given the specific attack), and almost simultaneous Right leopard paw to the throat. Right finger hook (fish hook?) to nerve...whatchamacallit--the one that really hurts on the front/side of neck. Spin back 270 degrees with his neck in your Right grasp and his attacking limb still in your Left, driving him into the pavement spine first, and give it the standard finish. 

This is pretty strong stuff, and I don't teach it till about 18 months into the program.

Am I nuts, or does any of that make sense? Or, both? :erg:


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> Are you still using the knife hand/bent wrist combo for this block?


 
yep


----------



## RevIV

kidswarrior said:


> :lol: NO! We need to keep beating the dead horse! :deadhorse
> 
> OK, I may need to change my screen name in this section to The Apostate Kempoist...or something jazzier, but along those lines. Cos I've not remained a purist w/ my kempo. Have put some of it through the grid of (an)other art(s). But here goes anyway.
> 
> I do 10 as the lunge to 10:30 with a same side knife hand/arm or even a down windmill block (whatever feels natural given the specific attack), and almost simultaneous Right leopard paw to the throat. Right finger hook (fish hook?) to nerve...whatchamacallit--the one that really hurts on the front/side of neck. Spin back 270 degrees with his neck in your Right grasp and his attacking limb still in your Left, driving him into the pavement spine first, and give it the standard finish.
> 
> This is pretty strong stuff, and I don't teach it till about 18 months into the program.
> 
> Am I nuts, or does any of that make sense? Or, both? :erg:


 
Explain?  10:30 with left or right foot?  Did you take out the strike to the groin? (I do the ridgehand)  I like the image though "neck in your right grasp"  tear that sucka.  Oh and Matt.... Your killin me, you put us back to 7.


----------



## kidswarrior

RevIV said:


> Explain?  10:30 with left or right foot?  Did you take out the strike to the groin? (I do the ridgehand)  I like the image though "neck in your right grasp"  tear that sucka.  Oh and Matt.... Your killin me, you put us back to 7.


10:30 with left foot for his right-limb attack. If I can catch the inside of his knee with my strong lunging horse stance, what a bonus--but not necessary. Similar foot movement to Combo 3, but inside instead of outside.

Yeah, took out the ridge hand to the groin because it required me to drop my right while his left is still cocked, or maybe even already on its way in a follow up swing/combo. I was never fond of my ridge hand to his groin leaving one whole side of my face/body open. Just used too many *chin blocks* in my misspent youth.  But my way, my right elbow/forearm should be sufficient to impede any such follow up move by him in the natural course of the leopard strike (or, it can be toned down to an open tiger's mouth/web hand to take it out of the possibly-lethal category).


----------



## kidswarrior

Matt said:


> Actually, I'm interested. I think it's a matter of picturing your center mass going  in a direction like this "<" so that you evade the kick but your mass is headed toward your target.
> 
> * There seem to be a lot of movements I do that follow that shape.*


This is an interesting concept to me, and one I haven't really contemplated. Have any examples at your fingertips?

Oh, and sorry Jesse. But sometimes discourse is just ugly and disorderly. :bangahead:


----------



## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> No it must be a step through right straight punch to the chest that is how we will be attacked!!


 
LOL!!! 




> Ok sorry.....
> 
> I think 10 lends itself well to the roundhouse kick attack. We are stepping into the attack which is where you want to be on any roundhousing motion. The groin is very exposed for the simo strike (I use a ridge hand). Then grab the leg and wheel back and let him go for a ride.....Of course we still want to follow up once he gets there.


 
Nice!!


----------



## MJS

marlon said:


> yep


 
Thanks for getting back to me.   A few more questions...

Are you concerned about any injury to the hand, specifically the one with the bent wrist when doing this block on a kick?  This could simply be me not 'seeing' how its done, as there could very well be some differences between the way you and I are performing this.

What part of the leg are you blocking?

Thanks,

Mike


----------



## MJS

kidswarrior said:


> :lol: NO! We need to keep beating the dead horse! :deadhorse
> 
> OK, I may need to change my screen name in this section to The Apostate Kempoist...or something jazzier, but along those lines. Cos I've not remained a purist w/ my kempo. Have put some of it through the grid of (an)other art(s). But here goes anyway.
> 
> I do 10 as the lunge to 10:30 with a same side knife hand/arm or even a down windmill block (whatever feels natural given the specific attack), and almost simultaneous Right leopard paw to the throat. Right finger hook (fish hook?) to nerve...whatchamacallit--the one that really hurts on the front/side of neck. Spin back 270 degrees with his neck in your Right grasp and his attacking limb still in your Left, driving him into the pavement spine first, and give it the standard finish.
> 
> This is pretty strong stuff, and I don't teach it till about 18 months into the program.
> 
> Am I nuts, or does any of that make sense? Or, both? :erg:


 
Just so I'm reading this right.  You're doing 10 with a left step on the initial block?  Interesting variation.   I step with my rt. blocking the punch with my left and a rt. ridgehand to the groin.  Wrap the arm, rt. 'bear paw' or palm strike with rt. as I pull them in, step back with lt. taking them down.


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> Thanks for getting back to me.  A few more questions...
> 
> Are you concerned about any injury to the hand, specifically the one with the bent wrist when doing this block on a kick? This could simply be me not 'seeing' how its done, as there could very well be some differences between the way you and I are performing this.
> 
> What part of the leg are you blocking?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mike


 

i block above the knee.  the bent wrist is either coming up or is used in a swining motion without a hard stop so i do not see any issues with injury...by the way, keeping the bent wrist places your elbow in a very disadvatageous position for the attacker.

marlon


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> Just so I'm reading this right. You're doing 10 with a left step on the initial block? Interesting variation.  I step with my rt. blocking the punch with my left and a rt. ridgehand to the groin. Wrap the arm, rt. 'bear paw' or palm strike with rt. as I pull them in, step back with lt. taking them down.


 

me also


----------



## 14 Kempo

MJS said:


> Just so I'm reading this right. You're doing 10 with a left step on the initial block? Interesting variation.  I step with my rt. blocking the punch with my left and a rt. ridgehand to the groin. Wrap the arm, rt. 'bear paw' or palm strike with rt. as I pull them in, step back with lt. taking them down.


 
This is also the way we do it, from the beginning. We do vary the strike with the right from 'bear paw' to 'palm' to 'knife' to 'sword' depending on the situation. The importance is places on the wrap and control of the head and upper spine. The takedown can be varied as well, from somewhat gentle to an all out judo type right hip throw. 

There are more, but we see its major principle as the first combination that teaches us to control the head/neck/spine region. "Where the head goes, so does the body"


----------



## kidswarrior

MJS said:


> Just so I'm reading this right.  You're doing 10 with a left step on the initial block?  Interesting variation.   I step with my rt. blocking the punch with my left and a rt. ridgehand to the groin.  Wrap the arm, rt. 'bear paw' or palm strike with rt. as I pull them in, step back with lt. taking them down.


Yep, left block/left *step*--a very aggressive 'block' meant to stop their momentum dead, and even unbalance them.



			
				4Kempo said:
			
		

> This is also the way we do it, from the beginning. We do vary the strike with the right from 'bear paw' to 'palm' to 'knife' to 'sword' depending on the situation.


Later, I teach (or probably, more accurately the student discovers on his own ) variations in the strike such as you've listed. But I don't do the lower strike (ridge to groin, or whatever), since it impedes the flow of the tech the way we do it. The leopard paw, or half-fist, to the throat--even missing slightly and hitting the front/side of neck--has plenty of stopping power/shock value--especially since his forward momentum (throat) is meeting ours (all squeezed into the ridge formed by the line of second knuckles). 

And then for the take down, the fingers digging into the nerve as the push, along with the Left grab/pulling right arm, with a back spin. Follows the old shuai chiao principle of push/pull for a take down.



> The importance is places on the wrap and control of the head and upper spine.


Good point.


----------



## 14 Kempo

kidswarrior said:


> Yep, left block/left *step*--a very aggressive 'block' meant to stop their momentum dead, and even unbalance them.
> 
> Later, I teach (or probably, more accurately the student discovers on his own ) variations in the strike such as you've listed. But I don't do the lower strike (ridge to groin, or whatever), since it impedes the flow of the tech the way we do it. The leopard paw, or half-fist, to the throat--even missing slightly and hitting the front/side of neck--has plenty of stopping power/shock value--especially since his forward momentum (throat) is meeting ours (all squeezed into the ridge formed by the line of second knuckles).
> 
> And then for the take down, the fingers digging into the nerve as the push, along with the Left grab/pulling right arm, with a back spin. Follows the old shuai chiao principle of push/pull for a take down.
> 
> Good point.


 
Yeah, I like the idea of going straight to the throat and it is something we use at higher ranks. I like it, thanks.


----------



## marlon

kidswarrior said:


> Yep, left block/left *step*--a very aggressive 'block' meant to stop their momentum dead, and even unbalance them.
> 
> Interesting the differences, we do this technique with more of an aikido flow to it. there is no stop until the assailant is on the ground.  i want thier momentum to become my tool.
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> i say, lets skip the long drawn out discussion of 8 and 9 combo cuz they are just both combo 6 with an extension and we see how long it took on 7, so what do you say about combo 10. I love it. Simo block and strike, stepping in with right foot, then simo trap and strike to ear continued with a circular flow take down with no sweep followed by knife hands and dislocating the shoulder. short and simple version..
> Jesse


 

sorry Jesse.  i know that you already do not like many of my posts and now i am bring us back to 6.  But you see 8 and 9 are not simply extensions of 6 for me.  Basically 6 is a quick straight kick top the lower body to stop a forward attack.  The biginners are always taught the double block..or as Prof. Kimo called it the sun and moon block.  this is a place in SK where Doc's term "indexes and indices of knowledge" is true for us.  the double block is not necessary to 6 but the movement taught at beginnier level teaches the continuous motion that is kempo and is related to the multiple hammer strikes that sit at the core of my kempo systems.  It teaches to check / eliminate the aggressors weapons through skeletal manipulation; cover movement; high low striking;a host of limb destruction concepts; hidden movement/attacks/ controls...and going outside the attack.  8 specifically goes inside the attack zone and eliminates possible counter attack with a low level strike to the groin or knees and distractracts with the pain mechanism from the initial block.  9 is closer to 6 in that the front kick stops the forward momentum and allows for control of the forward limb and teaches skeletal manipulation and control of an attackers balance by bringing a single limb to ones center.  Both 8 and 9 teach flow to the natural target through follow up strikes with the same limb (the leg)....or i could be delusional 
so i do not see them as subsets or extensions of 6.  i find the contain very different and valueable knowledge about kempo even though each separate piece may not be completely necessary to the technique
Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> Yeah, I like the idea of going straight to the throat and it is something we use at higher ranks. I like it, thanks.


 

which techniques do you go straight to the throat with?  Just curious  

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

10 is great from a standing clinch..replace the ridge to the groin with a blade or front kick to the inner thigh, rotate your hands counter clockwise the left wraping the opponents arm btwn the shoulder and the elbow pressing in a downwards circle ccw towards the attackers lower center the right hand strikes the ear if possible to further disrupt the balance and pulls the head (twisted so the face is turning towwards your rt shoulder) then front kick the opponents right inner thigh or do a sweep as you turn your torso  ccw ansd slam them into the ground.  the head must go back a little to effect the twist \and then should be brought as close to your chest as possible.  it can work as a reversal if someone is attempting to pin you on your back except the skeletal manipulation of the left arm wrap and pressure on the elbow in orderto turn the shoulder needs more emphasis.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> which techniques do you go straight to the throat with? Just curious
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Not neccessarily combinations, but many techniques, we call them kempos. However, there are some variations of the combinations where we will do this ...  
#1: Block and wrap with the left, Tiger's mouth to the throat with the right.
#11: Block with the left, right trigger finger, left crosshand shuto to the throat.
#13: Block with the left, right punch to the temple, scissor strike to the throat/neck.
#16: Parry block with the left, right leopard paw to the throat.
#20: Left outward block, right tiger's mouth to the throat.
#22: Right upward block, left spear to the throat.
#24: After the initial block, scissor strike to the throat/neck.
#25: Spear hand to the throat.
That to list some, again, many of these are from variations and variations of the combinations are, in our style, called kempo techniques, or simply kempos.


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> Not neccessarily combinations, but many techniques, we call them kempos. However, there are some variations of the combinations where we will do this ...
> #1: Block and wrap with the left, Tiger's mouth to the throat with the right.
> #11: Block with the left, right trigger finger, left crosshand shuto to the throat.
> #13: Block with the left, right punch to the temple, scissor strike to the throat/neck.
> #16: Parry block with the left, right leopard paw to the throat.
> #20: Left outward block, right tiger's mouth to the throat.
> #22: Right upward block, left spear to the throat.
> #24: After the initial block, scissor strike to the throat/neck.
> #25: Spear hand to the throat.
> That to list some, again, many of these are from variations and variations of the combinations are, in our style, called kempo techniques, or simply kempos.


 

thanks...i would be interested in knowing oneof your kempo's that go straight for the throat.  we have a few also.

marlon


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> sorry Jesse. i know that you already do not like many of my posts and now i am bring us back to 6. But you see 8 and 9 are not simply extensions of 6 for me. Marlon


 
Haaa,, Marlon I love your posts i just didnt think my mind right now could go through 4 more pages of a kick combo.  Do and say whatever you want,,  I can always scan past if my ADD kicks in..


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> Haaa,, Marlon I love your posts i just didnt think my mind right now could go through 4 more pages of a kick combo. Do and say whatever you want,, I can always scan past if my ADD kicks in..


 

so many reasons to like you sir


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> thanks...i would be interested in knowing oneof your kempo's that go straight for the throat. we have a few also.
> 
> marlon


 
I'll do that for you, just have to be after this hellish weekend sometime. We had testing yesterday and a street faire today where we were told on Friday that we had a 45 minute demo to prepare ... it's going to be pretty much impromptu. Whatever they like, they get more of.


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## kidswarrior

14 Kempo said:


> I'll do that for you, just have to be after this hellish weekend sometime. We had testing yesterday and a street faire today where we were told on Friday that we had a 45 minute demo to prepare ... it's going to be pretty much impromptu. Whatever they like, they get more of.



Good luck!!! :karate: :duel: :boing1:


----------



## kidswarrior

marlon said:


> kidswarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, left block/left *step*--a very aggressive 'block' meant to stop their momentum dead, and even unbalance them.
> 
> Interesting the differences, *we do this technique with more of an aikido flow to it. there is no stop until the assailant is on the ground.  i want thier momentum to become my tool.*
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting take. We have other techniques that are more take down (shuaijiao) than percussive, and these would be right in line with your version of combo 10. Like the old saying, The ground never misses.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mark L

I've always done 10 with a right step, simultaneous left outward block and spearhand to the groin (shearing across the berries), followed by the takedown already detailed.  We strive to flow quickly to the takedown.  I'm looking forward to trying the variation with a neck grab instead of the bear paw to the ear (thumb to the carotid, mastoid grab?).  An interesting variation after the takedown is a head stomp with the left, then fall into an armbar.  I know, don't go to the ground unless you have to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

I was never really clear on why the system has 8 and 9, as they're so similar.  What am I missing?


----------



## marlon

Mark L said:


> I've always done 10 with a right step, simultaneous left outward block and spearhand to the groin (shearing across the berries), followed by the takedown already detailed. We strive to flow quickly to the takedown. I'm looking forward to trying the variation with a neck grab instead of the bear paw to the ear (thumb to the carotid, mastoid grab?). An interesting variation after the takedown is a head stomp with the left, then fall into an armbar. I know, don't go to the ground unless you have to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I was never really clear on why the system has 8 and 9, as they're so similar. What am I missing?


 

Hello Mark, i think a neck grab in 10 uses too much force whereas the bear paw moves the head back and continues the circles to bring the opponents rt ear into your chest (from a right attack) this controls the spine and if the spine is controlled... just how i do it.

as for 8 and 9 i do them differently from each other.  I mentioned the differences in post 154 of this thread.  I see little value in doing them the same with an extra kick added to 9

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## Mark L

Marlon,
Thanks, I'll look at that post on 8 and 9.  As for 10, I'm with you on keeping the circle going.  But I'm going to try the neck thing just for fun, even if it does disrupt the flow, 'cause I can picture the grimace ...
Mark


----------



## Mark L

OK.  I agree that 8 and 9 _are_ different than 6, but don't see that they're significantly different from each other.  What I do see is that 8 is (simplistically stated), a defend, counter, then get out of Dodge.  9 does all that, then goes back with a potentially devastating finish.


----------



## marlon

Mark L said:


> OK. I agree that 8 and 9 _are_ different than 6, but don't see that they're significantly different from each other. What I do see is that 8 is (simplistically stated), a defend, counter, then get out of Dodge. 9 does all that, then goes back with a potentially devastating finish.


 

With 9 there is a wrist grab and a control that allows for some musculoskeletal manipulation.  the first kick in 9 acts like 16 in that it checks the forward motion to facilitate the grab.  the step down before the side kick uses your weight shift to unbalance the attacker before the kick or can cause a reaction in the attacker to pull back thereby allowing you to borrow force that is channeled into the side kick..there is also the possiblity for a great amount of tension to the elbow of the attacker before the last kick.  hope what i am typing  is clear enough.

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

Mark L said:


> Marlon,
> Thanks, I'll look at that post on 8 and 9. As for 10, I'm with you on keeping the circle going. But I'm going to try the neck thing just for fun, even if it does disrupt the flow, 'cause I can picture the grimace ...
> Mark


----------



## Mark L

Thanks Marlon.  I was never taught the wrist grab, that certainly does present options not available otherwise.


----------



## DavidCC

I think our #8 must be different.

Ours starts with the outer block and right HM step, but also uses a simultaneous tiger-mouth to the throat.  Then we drop the elbow to the SP, bending them forward, where we wrap the head up similar to a guillotine choke, then step back, grabbing the chin and pulling it up and around while slapping downward with the left hand to the bladder meridian (between the spine and scapula).

9 sounds the same.  I never thought of it as 6 with an extension, but it sure is .

For 10, (we use ridgehand to groin) if the block and strike are in fact done at the same time, I don;t think you have to wrry about the left - at the time when your right hand is low, he is still punching with his right.  by the time he is able to throw the left your right hand should be already circling around to strike the neck, the path of that strike should cover that zone.


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> 8,9,12,19,27 i teach as a "bubble" just a term which means they fit together.  I show how they are all extensions of 6.  And yes marlon, I am sure there are a million strategies and principles in there but the main one is combo 6 did not take the person out so we have to do more.
> Jesse


----------



## RevIV

Mark L said:


> Thanks Marlon. I was never taught the wrist grab, that certainly does present options not available otherwise.


 
On Matts page Kempoinfo.com there is a video on 8 and how he talks about not holding the arm.. I was originally with a grab, but holding onto them after such a powerful kick did not work for me.


----------



## Mark L

RevIV said:


> On Matts page Kempoinfo.com there is a video on 8 and how he talks about not holding the arm.. I was originally with a grab, but holding onto them after such a powerful kick did not work for me.


Yup, seems like I'd be too crowded for the RH if we didn't let the body react to the front kick.


----------



## RevIV

On my #8 after the front kick i put my foot down and set up for more of a Muay Thai wheel kick to the head.  for #9.  I do the double kick followed by a step behind side kick..  I remember when i first learned nine it was am outward knife hand block with the left, then the 2 kicks, switch hands so you are now holding with the right arm, raise attackers arm up and then almost a back kick to the floaters.  I have also seen SGM Pesare do a kindof 9 in his video and in person where after the double kick you move towards 10 o'clock getting behind the person as they are being erected back up after the second kick and side kicking them in the back/kidneys.
Jesse


----------



## RevIV

I have never had a bear paw in 10, I do have it in 17 though.  In 10 I was always taught the ridge hand to the groin followed by a willows palm to the ear.  My bear paw is not just a slap though.. It strikes like the willows palm then digs into the ear holding onto it and tearing it with the takedown.
Jesse


----------



## MJS

marlon said:


> i block above the knee. the bent wrist is either coming up or is used in a swining motion without a hard stop so i do not see any issues with injury...by the way, keeping the bent wrist places your elbow in a very disadvatageous position for the attacker.
> 
> marlon


 
Ok..thanks for the clarification.


----------



## 14 Kempo

OK, here goes, Marlon. This is a variation to our #16 ... 

- Left foot steps towards 1030.
- Left hand parries across.
- Righthand leopard paw to the throat.
- Right hand wraps the neck and pulls down into a right knee strike.
- Pivot body clockwise to 0600, right arm staying in contact with inside of opponents right arm, sliding down to the wrist.
- Left forearm strike to elbow causing break or armbar at the least.
- Finish like #16, left leg steps over arm, may axe kick back of head on way to ground.
- Slight rotation counter clockwise to again break arm.
- Step out counter clockwise with right foot.
- Deliver right phoenix fist to base of skull.

... I hope that is understandable


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> On Matts page Kempoinfo.com there is a video on 8 and how he talks about not holding the arm.. I was originally with a grab, but holding onto them after such a powerful kick did not work for me.


 
the grab i use in 9. the kick moves the attackers center away from my center so i am not so crowded and if i rotate the attackers wristexternally then i have musculoskeletal manipulation so it kind of works for me.  However, Matt and Jesse are my seniors in kempo so please remember that when taking my approach into consideration.  i am seeking to learn

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

the main one is combo 6 did not take the person out so we have to do more.
Jesse[/quote]


interesting..i was never taught it that way, but i understand your thinking here.  The front kick did not end the attack so continue with something else.  i look at it as though my intention with my kick was to do something different and follow up appropriately.  i will re think things.  I hope to get out to you guys sometime this summer and train with you.

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## Matt

marlon said:


> the grab i use in 9. the kick moves the attackers center away from my center so i am not so crowded and if i rotate the attackers wristexternally then i have musculoskeletal manipulation so it kind of works for me.  However, Matt and Jesse are my seniors in kempo so please remember that when taking my approach into consideration.  i am seeking to learn
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon



On my site, the video he's referencing is of Jim Brassard, a 10th dan in his style of Shaolin American Kempo. 

As far as me being your senior in Kempo, Marlon, let's not get carried away- I certainly remember our shodan test together (quite fondly!) - so I certainly think your thoughts on this carry at least the same weight mine do. I know you and I are always looking to learn something that will benefit our Kempo and our students. When we're old, (and hopefully before then) I'm sure we'll be looking back once again at the parallels in our journeys. 

I actually don't grab in 9 based on the unbalancing issue, but if you can get the skeletal manipulation going on, then that's one way I might consider it. I tend to like to continue the attacker's movement as to allow a collision with the kick. On Professor Kimo's triple kick with parry ( an outside double parry with a front, round and side kick, what a coincidence!) the outside nature of the positioning makes me more likely to use the manipulation as it keeps me away from the other hand/ shoulder coming around. 

p.s.
Master Dwire, this one really reminds me of combination #6...:btg:


----------



## marlon

our parallels are very curious to me. I, also have fond memoories of the shodan test Matt.  i have a great deal of respect for you and your focus and love of kempo and kempo history.  I respectf Jesse as well..yet it is a fact you both out rank me and are at mastery level.  My friend it would be good to train with you this summer , if we can work it out

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> OK, here goes, Marlon. This is a variation to our #16 ...
> 
> - Left foot steps towards 1030.
> - Left hand parries across.
> - Righthand leopard paw to the throat.
> - Right hand wraps the neck and pulls down into a right knee strike.
> - Pivot body clockwise to 0600, right arm staying in contact with inside of opponents right arm, sliding down to the wrist.
> - Left forearm strike to elbow causing break or armbar at the least.
> - Finish like #16, left leg steps over arm, may axe kick back of head on way to ground.
> - Slight rotation counter clockwise to again break arm.
> - Step out counter clockwise with right foot.
> - Deliver right phoenix fist to base of skull.
> 
> ... I hope that is understandable


 

right hand leopard paw to the throat or neck...?  cause i am thinking of the body reation to a leopard paw to the throat and i cannot see how the attacker would be close enough for the wrap..although i really like the strike sequence.  thanks

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> right hand leopard paw to the throat or neck...? cause i am thinking of the body reation to a leopard paw to the throat and i cannot see how the attacker would be close enough for the wrap..although i really like the strike sequence. thanks
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
It's to the throat, a speed strike, not a power strike. I am right hip-to-right hip in this position, same position as combo 3. If a straight punch, I parry with my left off my right shoulder. The right comes up underneath and at a slight angle into the adams apple, then snakes over thier shoulder, around the right side of thier neck.

Hopefully that helps clarify the positioning.


----------



## MJS

Just out of curiosity, which combo are we talking about currently?  Just trying to keep up with the discussion.


----------



## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> Just out of curiosity, which combo are we talking about currently? Just trying to keep up with the discussion.


 

We are talking about #9.  I personally do the wrist grab for the front and roundhouse and then grab the fore arm with my right, as well, to pull him into the side kick.  Reasoning - both the front and the roundhouse are snapping here.  I want to get his head moving forward with the front kick so that the snapping roundhouse whips his head back then grab with my right hand as well,  pulling him into the side kick (lua principles).  The other reason I want that attacking hand is that I work two different sequences of lock flow from there.  B (breaking sequence) - bringing the arm over the left shoulder, turning away from the attacker for an elbow break on my shoulder, then over my right shoulder for the same break, then into a shoulder wrench (aikido type throw four directions I believe it is called).  C (control sequence) - we step under the bridge pulling the arm into a 90 deg angle, then sliding the left arm through the bend of the elbow into a cradle (attackers hand is in your inside elbow and yours is through theirs) then with the right hand up to the phyltrum.  Again these lock flows are not done as technique extensions but more of a vessel to teach the different lock flows.


----------



## 14 Kempo

We, too, use a grab on #9, however, our version "B" uses the two snapping kicks, they are a bit different in our version "A". We deliver the right front kick, we then return our right leg to the ground, its original position, and deliver a full roundhouse kick. After the round kick, our right leg crosses over the left. As our right foot hits the ground, our left hand still holding on, we deploy a right upward forearm strike to hyperextend, dislocate or break the opponents right elbow. Finish with a right side thrust kick to the ribs.


----------



## DavidCC

Our #9 is a little shorter.

We do the same block/grab wit the left hand, and front ball kick to SP.
After the kick we return the right foot into a crossover (twist stance), then side thrust kick to floating ribs, while with our right hand we use a rising tiger mouth strike to the wrist, knocking their arm straigh upwards. This elongates and their right side making it more vulnerable to the kick.

That's all, 2 kicks. but I do like the idea of flowing into a lock flow, more fun for class  :whip:


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> Our #9 is a little shorter.
> 
> We do the same block/grab wit the left hand, and front ball kick to SP.
> After the kick we return the right foot into a crossover (twist stance), then side thrust kick to floating ribs, while with our right hand we use a rising tiger mouth strike to the wrist, knocking their arm straigh upwards. This elongates and their right side making it more vulnerable to the kick.
> 
> That's all, 2 kicks. but I do like the idea of flowing into a lock flow, more fun for class  :whip:


 
At a previous school I attended (name withheld ... LOL), we used the tiger's mouth to raise the arm, but we still had the three kicks.


----------



## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> We are talking about #9. I personally do the wrist grab for the front and roundhouse and then grab the fore arm with my right, as well, to pull him into the side kick. Reasoning - both the front and the roundhouse are snapping here. I want to get his head moving forward with the front kick so that the snapping roundhouse whips his head back then grab with my right hand as well, pulling him into the side kick (lua principles). The other reason I want that attacking hand is that I work two different sequences of lock flow from there. B (breaking sequence) - bringing the arm over the left shoulder, turning away from the attacker for an elbow break on my shoulder, then over my right shoulder for the same break, then into a shoulder wrench (aikido type throw four directions I believe it is called). C (control sequence) - we step under the bridge pulling the arm into a 90 deg angle, then sliding the left arm through the bend of the elbow into a cradle (attackers hand is in your inside elbow and yours is through theirs) then with the right hand up to the phyltrum. Again these lock flows are not done as technique extensions but more of a vessel to teach the different lock flows.


 
Ok, thanks.   As for 9...you and I are performing this pretty much the same way.  I feel that if you don't change to the right before the sidekick, you'll be in an awkward position.


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> Ok, thanks.  As for 9...you and I are performing this pretty much the same way. I feel that if you don't change to the right before the sidekick, you'll be in an awkward position.


 
i guess i can see how it might feel ackward, however i think of it as unbalancing the person with my weight and then having then fall into myon coming side thrust.  With the right timing it feels like the kick in 3 kata.  front ball back then side thrust *then escape with the left leg and suddenly return a left side thrust.*  But without looking at the timing it does feel ackward.  If the wrist grab is done as a msk manipulation then the step down into a dragon stance after the roundhouse could easily drop the attacker on thier back...then the kick is to a downed opponent and if it does not take them down then their motion to straighten up you use as added force for your kick that is in the same direction they are most likely moving.

ok i think we were at 11 when i hijacked this for 9...apologies

Marlon


----------



## marlon

11 is good if you can slip in close to the attacker's body anything from a punch to a grab to  a standing clinch..it is a great takedown and more eeffective than a basic "tackle" if you rush someone.

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> 11 is good if you can slip in close to the attacker's body anything from a punch to a grab to a standing clinch..it is a great takedown and more eeffective than a basic "tackle" if you rush someone.
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
Also very effective if you find yourself down on one or two knees as well!


----------



## JTKenpo

14 Kempo said:


> Also very effective if you find yourself down on one or two knees as well!


 

I like it!!  Might have to tie my shoe when some jrk tries to do me wrong, very nice.

I like 11 against a two handed push (ok attempted push as I do not train to get hit in the face with an attempted punch either).  It flows nice, my left hand can block then check both of the attackers hands while I get into the technique.


----------



## 14 Kempo

JTKenpo said:


> I like it!! Might have to tie my shoe when some jrk tries to do me wrong, very nice.
> 
> I like 11 against a two handed push (ok attempted push as I do not train to get hit in the face with an attempted punch either). It flows nice, my left hand can block then check both of the attackers hands while I get into the technique.


 
Nice, I can see that ... 

Also, the take down, try it from one knee. Use your foot to hook behind thier leg and a forearm strike just above their knee to execute the takedown. 

Our normal 11 is ... 
- Parry block with left hand pinning them
- Right trigger finger to temple (we dont concern ourselves with the exact target here, could be eyesocket or orbital ... just hit)
- Left crosshand shuto to the neck/throat
- Left circles down to right heel of opponent
- Right forearm strike just above the knee as you lower your level
- Stand up, right kick to tailbone
- Turn clockwise, turning them over
- Various things can happen here
- Smash their knee into the ground
- Twist or break their ankle
- Pull leg back, drop knee on lower back
- Etc.
- Drop the leg and continue your turn clockwise
- Plant the right foot, thrust/vertical punch to the kidney area
- Right front heel kick to their right ribcage/kidney area
- Right axe kick to their left ribcage/kidney area
- May choose to right stomp on the back of the head here or just step out, cross and guard

Damn, it's easier to do this stuff than it is to write it up


----------



## JTKenpo

14 Kempo said:


> Also, the take down, try it from one knee. Use your foot to hook behind thier leg and a forearm strike just above their knee to execute the takedown.
> 
> Damn, it's easier to do this stuff than it is to write it up


 
Isn't that the truth....

We have a technique similar to this done from a standing position called circling hook.  The similarity is the right hand striking the top half while the left leg pulls the rug out underneath.  Very cool.


----------



## JTKenpo

JTKenpo said:


> Isn't that the truth....
> 
> We have a technique similar to this done from a standing position called circling hook. The similarity is the right hand striking the top half while the left leg pulls the rug out underneath. Very cool.


 
Here is the technique, I bolded where I see the similarity.  Good thing too becuase I found a typo in my write up.  

*CIRCLING HOOK *- RIGHT FOOT STEPS BACK TO HALF MOON STANCE WITH LEFT KNIFE HAND BLOCK. EXECUTE RIGHT INVERTED CROSS KNIFE HAND TO UNDERSIDE OF ATTACKERS HAND, GRAB AND PULL TO RIGHT SIDE OF BODY (AS IF DOING A RIGHT DOWNWARD BLOCK) AND EXECUTE RIGHT FRONT KICK TO GROIN. RETURN KICK TO RIGHT HALF MOON STANCE AND *EXECUTE LEFT LEG REAP AND RIGHT ROUNDHOUSE ELBOW* TO FACE TAKING ATTACKER DOWN. FINISH WITH RIGHT FRONT KICK TO GROIN. CROSS AND COVER.


----------



## 14 Kempo

JTKenpo said:


> Here is the technique, I bolded where I see the similarity. Good thing too becuase I found a typo in my write up.
> 
> *CIRCLING HOOK *- RIGHT FOOT STEPS BACK TO HALF MOON STANCE WITH LEFT KNIFE HAND BLOCK. EXECUTE RIGHT INVERTED CROSS KNIFE HAND TO UNDERSIDE OF ATTACKERS HAND, GRAB AND PULL TO RIGHT SIDE OF BODY (AS IF DOING A RIGHT DOWNWARD BLOCK) AND EXECUTE RIGHT FRONT KICK TO GROIN. RETURN KICK TO RIGHT HALF MOON STANCE AND *EXECUTE LEFT LEG REAP AND RIGHT ROUNDHOUSE ELBOW* TO FACE TAKING ATTACKER DOWN. FINISH WITH RIGHT FRONT KICK TO GROIN. CROSS AND COVER.


 
Yes, very similar technique, done at a different level, of course. Thanks for sharing, I have done a similar, upright leg reap before, we call it 'Deadly Dance'


----------



## 14 Kempo

What number are we on, 12?

As stated before, this is an extension of #6. Standard version ... 

- Left front kick to stop the momentum.
- Right spinning back kick to send them away.

This technique will work against just about any empty hand attack where you have enough time to get the first kick in. Some adjustments can be made dependent upon the attack and your counter. We use the step down after the front kick as a guage step. In other words, I can move forward, stay in place, move to one side or the other, or even backwards ... whatever the need for the situation.


----------



## JTKenpo

14 Kempo said:


> What number are we on, 12?
> 
> As stated before, this is an extension of #6. Standard version ...
> 
> - Left front kick to stop the momentum.
> - Right spinning back kick to send them away.
> 
> This technique will work against just about any empty hand attack where you have enough time to get the first kick in. Some adjustments can be made dependent upon the attack and your counter. We use the step down after the front kick as a guage step. In other words, I can move forward, stay in place, move to one side or the other, or even backwards ... whatever the need for the situation.


 

Yeah 12 is pretty cut and dry in my book to.

Now, 13.....some people have issue with belt techniques I personally like them.  Not to say you are going to whip your belt off (if you are even wearing one) but at a gym or pool side you will have a towel.....camping at a camp ground you will probably have some rope.  These are not crazy ideas.  Along with the standard #13 I have a couple similar belt techniques I teach along with it.


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> What number are we on, 12?
> 
> As stated before, this is an extension of #6. Standard version ...
> 
> - Left front kick to stop the momentum.
> - Right spinning back kick to send them away.
> 
> This technique will work against just about any empty hand attack where you have enough time to get the first kick in. Some adjustments can be made dependent upon the attack and your counter. We use the step down after the front kick as a guage step. In other words, I can move forward, stay in place, move to one side or the other, or even backwards ... whatever the need for the situation.


 

OMG!!! We do 12 the same way.  

What's your targets?

We basically use solar plexus / chest.  (I can get more specific if you want the pressure point designations!)


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> We basically use solar plexus / chest. (I can get more specific if you want the pressure point designations!)


 
David can I ask why you seem to use the solar plexus as the first shot rather than the groin or the knee?  Is it your preference, your instructors preference and/or is there a specific reason you are not targeting low?  I ask because on your previous posts it seems that you prefer targeting the solar plexus on combos that I have always heard going low to knee or groin.


----------



## JTKenpo

Combo #15 

One of my favorite under black techniques.  This technique in my opinion is one of those jack of all attacks.  Linear attacks we push away getting behind the person, circular attacks we push upward and away to get behind the person, kicks we can deflect and let them pass us so we are behind.   The meat of this technique with the palm, rake, elbow and hammer then drop the person on their back just makes me smile.


----------



## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> David can I ask why you seem to use the solar plexus as the first shot rather than the groin or the knee? Is it your preference, your instructors preference and/or is there a specific reason you are not targeting low? I ask because on your previous posts it seems that you prefer targeting the solar plexus on combos that I have always heard going low to knee or groin.


 
Sure  for the knee - the idea is that the knee is a thin target for a linear thrusting or snapping kick from the front, so for #12 for example, kicking the knee in motion is a lot more difficult than the body.  In some techs we do kick to the knee but it is not the first kick, or it is in a grappling/grabbing situation (where their movement is limited).

Groin vs SP... depends on what you mean by groin.  Do you mean a linear kick into the bladder or lower abdomen, or a rising kick into the testicle/perineum? The lower abdomen kick can probably be interchanged with our SP kick, although the reaction of the attacker will be slightly different so that might need to be accounted for in any specific application.  Kicking to the "goodies"  will have a bigger difference in reaction and that will almost always need to be accounted for in the execution of any specific technique.  In order to optimize the ability to respond spontaneously, techniques that use each reaction should be trained.


----------



## RevIV

Just back tracking,, combo 12 is def. one of the original New England Combo's.  SGM Pesare teaches it as his 2nd one.  Found that out yesterday.
Jesse


----------



## Jdokan

2nd technique WOW...what a way to challenge the newbie......


----------



## Jdokan

My # 12
Still the same concept...Left #2 Sword block Left snap kick ( a penatrating kick as opposed to a kick that drives the person backwards) to the lower triangle. Step down in that foot forward stance, spin into a 180* twist stance (facing the same way they are) while delivering a right spinning sword to their Liver....Right foot rises from the floor delivering a mule kick to the sternum....cross out the same way the kick originated....NO SPIN..go on guard..
We push 12 as being a Tiger technique so the aura of the technique should resemble that..Blocking hands....strike to ribs...guard....


----------



## DavidCC

Our versio of 12 uses no blocks - left front ball kick to Solar Plexus, right spinning back kick to the SP or floating ribs.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Our versio of 12 uses no blocks - left front ball kick to Solar Plexus, right spinning back kick to the SP or floating ribs.


 
#12 was once explained to me as #6 left side into #7 (although there is a spin involved).  This would very easily translate into no block, although I personally use one.


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> Our versio of 12 uses no blocks - left front ball kick to Solar Plexus, right spinning back kick to the SP or floating ribs.


 
Only difference I see in ours is the end.

Left front kick to the midsection, land forward (of course this is a gauge step).
Right spinning back kick to the midsection.
After the kick, we do not continue the spin back to facing our opponent. We simple walk out, cross and cover.
We use the back kick in one of two ways, either it launches the person towards their exit, creates distance, or we spin through, landing in a right foot forward fighting stance, moving towards the opponent applying continuous pressure.


----------



## kempo

What are your thoughts on combo #14.  Who has it and who has elimated from their training.  

Chris


----------



## marlon

kempo said:


> What are your thoughts on combo #14. Who has it and who has elimated from their training.
> 
> Chris


 
i teach it the standard way first but do it myself a little differently:  eliminate the block offset the jump to move out the way and it is an ok technique.  good for checking to see if your in shape.  Personally i am not qualified to eliminate any of the core skk curricullum.  Plus it is in 3 kata

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> i teach it the standard way first but do it myself a little differently: eliminate the block offset the jump to move out the way and it is an ok technique. good for checking to see if your in shape. Personally i am not qualified to eliminate any of the core skk curricullum. Plus it is in 3 kata
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
Hey Marlon, enough of this "im not qaulified" stuff....  if you do not like it, chuck it.. you are qaulified enough to teach your students in any way you see fit.
Jesse


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> Hey Marlon, enough of this "im not qaulified" stuff.... if you do not like it, chuck it.. you are qaulified enough to teach your students in any way you see fit.
> Jesse


 
thanks for the vote of confidence Master Dwire.  My thoughts in this area is that as long as i am teaching SKK and not my owen personal system then i will stick to the core curricullum.  i will do everything i can to make sure i give effective training with the material.  but it is not my system to change, nor am i a master of it.  I will always be honest about what i think is good and what i think sucks and why, but i will teach the core stuff as i have learned it.  Dropping things has been done too often and too easily in kempo for my tastes.  I have not delved so deeply into the material that i feel i can unilaterally decide to drop something because I do not 'get it'.  Perhaps one of my students will.  I did drop the half moon becuase of the concrete information out there to demonstrate that it was a 'martial art' mistake to use it.  I dropped it after discussing it with my teacher and getting his approuval.  Some of the material is challenging on many levels and b/c i have not risen to the challenge does not mean that it is not valueable.  SKK is not my system, so dropping things is not something i take lightly.  to do so would mean that i had exhausted all the knowledge, resources and training necessary to conclude something as not- worth-teaching.  from all the combinations i know and forms have (these are the core things in skk imo) cannot say that i have found any that through bettering my training and using the corrections of body alignment and timing, are not worth teaching as legitimate tools for self defense.  And, i still have a great deal to learn!  I respect other peoples choices in this area, yet my judgement for myself stands as is for now.  I am not qualified to eliminate techniques or forms from the core skk system as i know it.  ITo be sure there are things outside the core system that i have changed and eliminated as it is my dojo and i am responsible to teach things that wont get people in trouble.  I feel good about the changes, i went through a process to  do everythign i could to make it work and i checked with my teacher first. before hand. I respect your opinion and your martial art skill and your teaching ability and your drive to improve, master Dwire, and i count you as a friend in the arts, Jesse.  we are in different places about this subject though.  I hope i can still come and take some privates from you, sometime soon!  

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

Not that my word means anything, but I have to agree with Marlon on this one. We teach the core curriculum as it is. There are things that we alter or change, but those are called variations or kempo techniques. Not in all cases, but in many cases, people change things because they don't yet understand them. As an example, have any of you ever been shown a technique and after trying it for a while made a statement such as "I'd never do that" ... well, I have and Ive also found that down the road, maybe even a few years down the road, all of a sudden I learned something from someone, or just gained the experience that allowed me to now understand the movement and therefore validated the technique. Again, I'm with Marlon on this one. Another way that we teach is to teach the original method then allow a person, as they gain experience, to modify the movement to work for them ... always encouraging them to teach the original method and allow the person to grow with it under a teacher's guidance. Let me say this, there are things that some can do that I can't and vice versa. There are adjustments I make to fit my body type and stature, that I would never expect a smaller person to do and although I may show my way as a variation, I can't teach persons my way as 'the way' it just doesn't always work ... does for me. Well, I hope my rant (is it a rant?) is understandable!


----------



## marlon

Of course your words mean something...when you agree with me and especially when you do not.  I appreciate your input.
Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## kempo

marlon said:


> thanks for the vote of confidence Master Dwire. My thoughts in this area is that as long as i am teaching SKK and not my owen personal system then i will stick to the core curricullum. i will do everything i can to make sure i give effective training with the material. but it is not my system to change, nor am i a master of it. I will always be honest about what i think is good and what i think sucks and why, but i will teach the core stuff as i have learned it. Dropping things has been done too often and too easily in kempo for my tastes. I have not delved so deeply into the material that i feel i can unilaterally decide to drop something because I do not 'get it'. Perhaps one of my students will. I did drop the half moon becuase of the concrete information out there to demonstrate that it was a 'martial art' mistake to use it. I dropped it after discussing it with my teacher and getting his approuval. Some of the material is challenging on many levels and b/c i have not risen to the challenge does not mean that it is not valueable. SKK is not my system, so dropping things is not something i take lightly. to do so would mean that i had exhausted all the knowledge, resources and training necessary to conclude something as not- worth-teaching. from all the combinations i know and forms have (these are the core things in skk imo) cannot say that i have found any that through bettering my training and using the corrections of body alignment and timing, are not worth teaching as legitimate tools for self defense. And, i still have a great deal to learn! I respect other peoples choices in this area, yet my judgement for myself stands as is for now. I am not qualified to eliminate techniques or forms from the core skk system as i know it. ITo be sure there are things outside the core system that i have changed and eliminated as it is my dojo and i am responsible to teach things that wont get people in trouble. I feel good about the changes, i went through a process to do everythign i could to make it work and i checked with my teacher first. before hand. I respect your opinion and your martial art skill and your teaching ability and your drive to improve, master Dwire, and i count you as a friend in the arts, Jesse. we are in different places about this subject though. I hope i can still come and take some privates from you, sometime soon!
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 

Could you ilaberate on your reasoning for not teaching the half moon.

Thanks
Chris


----------



## marlon

kempo said:


> Could you ilaberate on your reasoning for not teaching the half moon.
> 
> Thanks
> Chris


 
It was not really my reasoning that did it , sir, rather the weight of truth.  see the threads on stepping and skk half moon.  If training is truth, if it is dangerous to teach something in effective then you will see that i had no choice if i wanted to maintain my intergity

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## kempo

marlon said:


> It was not really my reasoning that did it , sir, rather the weight of truth. see the threads on stepping and skk half moon. If training is truth, if it is dangerous to teach something in effective then you will see that i had no choice if i wanted to maintain my intergity
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
I checked out the other thread on half mooning and now I understand what you are talking about.  What I find wrong is doing the techniques against someone throwing a right punch while half mooning in.  The techniques should be done off of a right cross, but I am sure of the 101 combinations in SKK a large handful of them wouldnt work without some modifications.  How many actually do their combo off a right cross as apposed to right punch while half mooning in. 

Chris


----------



## 14 Kempo

kempo said:


> I checked out the other thread on half mooning and now I understand what you are talking about. What I find wrong is doing the techniques against someone throwing a right punch while half mooning in. The techniques should be done off of a right cross, but I am sure of the 101 combinations in SKK a large handful of them wouldnt work without some modifications. How many actually do their combo off a right cross as apposed to right punch while half mooning in.
> 
> Chris


 
I actually think this has all been covered before and we may be being set up, but here goes anyway.

If you are advanced and only working your techniques against a right punch using a half-moon, you are stuck in a box. You need to get outside the box. All techniques should be worked off various attacks; left jab, right cross, left/right hook, various grabs, etc. No, they don't all work against every type of attack, but best to know that in the studio. In the street, they throw a right, whether the right foot comes forward or not, you can rest assured that the left is next.

It is my belief that, at least in my school, we work the basic techniques off a half-moon in right punch ... this is in the beginning, for safety reasons. The half-moon in gives a student learning a new technique time to react. The right punch makes the opponent predicatable which can ensure safety of the opponent, and the person performing the technique as well. Once a technique is understood, the student needs to experiment with it off various attacks. What works, what doesn't work, what can be done to make it work. There are  other questions that can be asked, but I think most will get the idea.

Biggest message here, at least in my opinion, is get outside the box, use your mind. Your instructor isn't going to be there to shout out numbers at you, even if he/she was, you would probably not hear it during a scuffle and if you did, you wouldn't be able to hear it, process it and react in time. 

JMHO


----------



## RevIV

I assume when we talk "core" Skk we can only be talking about Fred Villari's core.  As I respect you Marlon (and yes we have to figure out the private lesson) and 14 Kempo,  within the same breath of you saying I do not want to drop something because I may not understand it yet, I must think of what was added just because?  Our choices that we make are ours for good or bad - what can be done can be undone - and i feel his conversation is going to lead back to a lengthy discussion on Combo # 6... haha.. kickum accurate, kickum hard.!


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> I assume when we talk "core" Skk we can only be talking about Fred Villari's core. As I respect you Marlon (and yes we have to figure out the private lesson) and 14 Kempo, within the same breath of you saying I do not want to drop something because I may not understand it yet, I must think of what was added just because? Our choices that we make are ours for good or bad - what can be done can be undone - and i feel his conversation is going to lead back to a lengthy discussion on Combo # 6... haha.. kickum accurate, kickum hard.!


 
well combo 6 is one of the core techniques of skk.  Perhaps a discussion of what we can learn from it is indeed warranted?!!!!  jj   

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

Going back to combo #14, I do not teach the scissor kick I teach a hopping front kick, and that is what I teach in 3 kata as well.  I do however say that originally it was a scissor kick, show the scissor kick and let the student know that it is a great tool to practice but have yet had someone apply a scissor kick to me or anyone else that I have seen.


----------



## DavidCC

punching in
We do not have the attacker half-moon.  When attacking we will either throw a looping haymaker type punch (comes from outside and drags the fight foot behind it), or a step-forward right cross (punch and step are together, punch straight at the face).  Because these are closer to how you will really be punched.  For beginners we just punch slower.  We do a drill where one person is moving forward and punching and the other is moving backwards and blocking, both are half-mooning, but I think tha is the only time an "attacker" is to use that footwork.

changing techniques
my school started under a guy who never was trained into the upper levels, so we started with havin to make some stuff up.  Also he probably never got to the point where some stuff that seemed unworkable later made sense; so that stuff was dropped or changed.  Now that we are independant, that process actually continues.  My teacher has been working with a number of senior instructors, some of whom have extensive experience in SKK or NCK or similar (Pantazzi, Seeley, Robyn to name a few) and in other styles; our goal is to teach techniques that "make sense" right away.  If a student needs 2-3 years experience before a particular movement "works" for them, perhaps that movement is not the best choice... We are trying to do more with less as it were.

For example, we have gun #3, gun #5, gun #10, and it slips my mind but there is also a punch combo  -  all 4 get to a similar position - you are cup&saucer on your right with attackers arm pulled and twisted, he is bent over facing 430.  Previosuly all 3 ended differently from this same position, but we have modifed them to now all include the same finishing kick.  

We give ourselves license to do this because we believe that the system is more than just the techniques, and that the techs can be different and it still be the same style.  Also, we know many layers of changes have been made on top of the CORE, who is to say that they are all good?  And what is the CORE anyway?  Villari?  Cerio?  how about Pesare, or Chow, or Chun or Gascon? Or was it Godin, or Emperado or even Mitose?  

Technique #14 and Kata 3
We have a COMPLETELY differnt technique that we call 14; and in kata 3 at that point where 14 is included, we do OUR 14 

our 14 - defense vs body punch or straight kick. step fwd with left foot, downward x-block.  Raise x'd hands to face height, uncross them with tiger rakes to attakers face, flowing thru to elbow position,  then poison thumb strkes to eyes, followed by right front ball kick to SP.

OK, I think I am all caugth up on the thread now


----------



## marlon

my opinion about core techniques is only my own.  It is how i approach things yet i do not impose this on anyone else.  SKK core material is the Fred. Villari stuff.  although it did not grow from inside his mind and experience alone it is distinctly different from other styles and still recognizeable as a Chow lineage system.  There is a great deal of wonderful kempo out there and if i say it is not SKK, it is only my opinion and i only mean that it is not Fred Villari kempo.  I teach fred Villari kempo which means i teach the combos as i have learned them and the forms of Villari's kempo.  SKK is Fred Villari kempo and not all kempo is SKK (thank goodness)


----------



## Jdokan

marlon said:


> i teach it the standard way first but do it myself a little differently: eliminate the block offset the jump to move out the way and it is an ok technique. good for checking to see if your in shape. Personally i am not qualified to eliminate any of the core skk curricullum. Plus it is in 3 kata
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 Obviously you have younger knees......even my 3 kata has adapted....the low sweep has morphed (as well) into a more upright attack....ahhh the joys of having to acknowledge the body changing faster than the mind...


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> For example, we have gun #3, gun #5, gun #10, and it slips my mind but there is also a punch combo - all 4 get to a similar position - you are cup&saucer on your right with attackers arm pulled and twisted, he is bent over facing 430. Previosuly all 3 ended differently from this same position, but we have modifed them to now all include the same finishing kick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> question off thread (this seems to happen alot  ), when you change these techniques or more to the point drop #'d techs how do you address the break in sequence?  i.e dropping tech #3 so then teaching 1,2,4....  I ask becuase I know what you guys are doing and the background from which you are coming from and this must have been addressed by now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> our 14 - defense vs body punch or straight kick. step fwd with left foot, downward x-block. Raise x'd hands to face height, uncross them with tiger rakes to attakers face, flowing thru to elbow position, then poison thumb strkes to eyes, followed by right front ball kick to SP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sounds like 5 pinan.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> For example, we have gun #3, gun #5, gun #10, and it slips my mind but there is also a punch combo - all 4 get to a similar position - you are cup&saucer on your right with attackers arm pulled and twisted, he is bent over facing 430. Previosuly all 3 ended differently from this same position, but we have modifed them to now all include the same finishing kick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> question off thread (this seems to happen alot  ), when you change these techniques or more to the point drop #'d techs how do you address the break in sequence? i.e dropping tech #3 so then teaching 1,2,4.... I ask becuase I know what you guys are doing and the background from which you are coming from and this must have been addressed by now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sounds like 5 pinan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we replace them with other techs.  We have a 14, it's just not the same 14 you have.
> 
> 6, 7, 3, 2, 5, 18, 4, 8, 12, 9... does that sound familiar?
> we only have 26 "Shaolin defense maneuvers" but we have 10 Gun Defense, 10 Knife Defnese, 15 grab defense, 10 Club defense manuevers too... requirements incldue techs from all 5 groups.  I bet some of the combos we are "missing" show up in our weapon defenses... if I ever get on the mats with some of you guys I'd like to try to figure that out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never drew a parallel to pinan5, I'll have to think about that.  Our pinans are heavily influecned by Goju, so a buit different than the SKK standard.  In fact they most resemble what I see in Tang Soo Do videos...
Click to expand...


----------



## LawDog

I, like JTKenpo removed the scissors kick a long time ago. The primary reason that I removed it was,
1) torque kicking when air bound damages ones knees,
2) most who try the kick do not land properly, they tend to land so that the front knee goes back into joint lock, again damaging ones knees.
3) if you do the technique against an extended strike you will be in the proper range for the kick. If the strike is done so that it with it's proper power curve you will be to close for the kick.


----------



## LawDog

JTKenpo,
who was your instructor out there in Seekonk land?


----------



## JTKenpo

LawDog said:


> JTKenpo,
> who was your instructor out there in Seekonk land?


 
Thomas Sullivan from Masters brought me through 2nd Black then when he retired and sold the school to his student Dan DaRocha I stayed on through 3rd Black and am now with Joe Rebelo, who promoted me to 4th, but have been focusing more on the American Kenpo curriculum for the past few years.


----------



## Hand Sword

Don't know where we're at but does anyone see the similiarity of combination #5 and "Intellectual Departure?"


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> just want to point out that while the techn (#2) is fast and effective as a one handed technique there is no reason to assume that the other hand is doing nothing.
> i am enjoying the discussion btw
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 

I really like the point marlon is making on this. DM#2 teaches 1 arm defense, but if your not injured that left hand will be checking or even aiding in the technique. I think we are pressed to use only 1 arm to make sure that principle doesn't get lost.


----------



## Hand Sword

Try it when the lapel is grabbed and you pin the arm with your left hand.


----------



## SK101

MJS said:


> Lets take a look at #3. Seems like it would work well against the right punch, a rt. jab, a rt. push or 2 hand push and a lapel grab with the rt. hand. Unless I'm missing it, I'm not seeing much off of a left side attack.


 
just taking the first initial step and punch makes a nice angulation sparring drill off a left front punch. Just step and hit. 

People often have a hard time with angle on the front punch to groin on DM #3. If you change the attack to hook punch and use a bob and weave the groin strike hits easily. 

Movement wise I like DM 3 off a cross hand wrist grab. you do loose the concept of hitting while the attacker is still coming forward, but the movements are almost identicle.


----------



## SK101

MJS said:


> Lets take a look at #3. Seems like it would work well against the right punch, a rt. jab, a rt. push or 2 hand push and a lapel grab with the rt. hand. Unless I'm missing it, I'm not seeing much off of a left side attack.


 
  On the right push are you saying right hand pushing opponents right shoulder? That could be really effiecient if you moved back before they actually landed the push then hit them with their energy still coming forward. Are you just shifting from horse facing 12 to horse facing 3 as they attack or another type of footwork?


----------



## SK101

Hand Sword said:


> Alright, sticking with the ot, how about making #5 combo a defense against a round house kick, as you move up the circle?


 
Can the initial block be used to insure they land right leg forward? 

I would feel more comfortable being able to the rake and back punch if the attacker is going to land forward rather then pulling his kick back.

If someone is using a box step or even stepping forward into a half moon facing 9, would they be better off stepping left foot back into horse facing 9 to deal with a roundhouse kick?


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> or against a spinning back fist...what do you mean "as you move up the circle"?
> 
> respectfully,
> 
> Marlon


 
I am thinking I would want to be able to absorb the back fist if I have to so I would step back with left foot into rt half moon facing 9. If they can't over power me then it is a simple break. If they can then my left foot being farther back will allow me to continue their circular motion without getting knocked over or just hit.

Do you use the draping block on 5(left knife/right upside down #3 block)? I think I have heard you say that before. I especially like that version of block with the spinning back fist attack.


----------



## SK101

JTKenpo said:


> Is it #6, well yes becuase you are slipping the attack and striking the groin with a front kick.


 
We may need to clarify versions of 6 here. Some people have as step off line w/blocks then kick to groin. Others may have front kick to solar plexus than cross out. I like the 2nd version for an attempted forward bear hug. 

Someone commented early that bearhugs from any direction are 6 just using different kicks. I like their thought on that.

I know many people already know this, but i'll throw it incase somewhen has not heard it. The crossover on the front kick to solar plexus version is done in case your attacker was too big. you are bouncing off and being thrown into the cross out.

If you injured your opponent you generally should continue forward.


----------



## Hand Sword

SK101 said:


> Can the initial block be used to insure they land right leg forward?
> 
> I would feel more comfortable being able to the rake and back punch if the attacker is going to land forward rather then pulling his kick back.
> 
> If someone is using a box step or even stepping forward into a half moon facing 9, would they be better off stepping left foot back into horse facing 9 to deal with a roundhouse kick?


 

Yes. Think of my last post about Intellectual Departure to get an idea of how it works for a round or front kick. Moving up the circle is usually the fastest and most safe way to step. It takes the steam off as past the point where the leg is straight, all of the power almost evaporates.


----------



## SK101

Going back to 6. How about against slashing knife to neck? Lean back heavily and deliver FrBlKick to solar plexus or ribs?


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## Hand Sword

SK101 said:


> Going back to 6. How about against slashing knife to neck? Lean back heavily and deliver FrBlKick to solar plexus or ribs?


 

I wouldn't do that. Leaning your body and weight back takes the power out of your kick going forward. Plus if they are lunginging in, your impact will knock you backward, off balance. It could be messy for you.

Probably better for a finger pointing at your face and threatening words, then, slap block and kick. Or something along those lines. Though, at one time, I do remember it being taught like Kajukenbo's #1 technique.


----------



## JTKenpo

Hand Sword said:


> Though, at one time, I do remember it being taught like Kajukenbo's #1 technique.


 

I would agree that #6 in  skk probably came from #1 in Kajukenbo.


----------



## SK101

JTKenpo said:


> David can I ask why you seem to use the solar plexus as the first shot rather than the groin or the knee? Is it your preference, your instructors preference and/or is there a specific reason you are not targeting low? I ask because on your previous posts it seems that you prefer targeting the solar plexus on combos that I have always heard going low to knee or groin.


 
I also have solar plex shots on 6,8,9,12,14. My guess on 6 & 12 is those who are kicking to the groin are using some extra footwork or blocking to move them offline. I have no footwork prior to the initial kick so a kick to the groin on that interpretation would have my opponent falling on me on those two atleast. 8,9,14 could probably be just 1st kick to the groin without any change in the initial movement.


----------



## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> I would agree that #6 in skk probably came from #1 in Kajukenbo.


 
So many things... where is Matt when I need him..
we are talking about a front ball kick here right?  found in almost any system? A scared person with no training what so ever can at least be scared into kicking someone.  Plus I remember arguements back in the day when people compared our combos to Kajukenbo and that started up a fun storm...  you know kindof like the one we had 2 weeks ago when we lost power for 5 days.. yeah, real fun.
So yes, I see that #6 has a move like in Kaju.  but I feel that it really is just one of the no brainer moves that you want to teach first because its easy and will help the student to develop more adv. techniques later.
Justin, this is not aimed at you just qouted you.


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> What number are we on, 12?


 
  I like the idea of using as retreating (redeployment) technique. If you are going to move away from your opponent might as well throw out the kicks in case they charge. I wouldn't step the feet into a pinetree after the 1st kick. I would place the foot into a left half moon facing 5 or 6 O'Clock then do the back kick and spin. 

   On that note the interpretation Professor I shows on his video for the last two kicks in No Nienglis(Left outer crescent then right roundhouse) he does while retreating. I like that interpretation since you have the retreating blocks toward the beginning of the form. It ties in a theme of learning to hit while you are moving away. Then if you compare that to southern nienglis you have the long section of retreating while blocking using the side leaning stances. 

   My son likes to practice 12 with a golden rooster kick(the kick done with a back fist in Shou tong kwok) after the front ball kick. You land in side horse stance after front kick. It keeps you from turning your back to the opponent and gives him a place besides STK to practice that kick.

   Going back to 7 you can use a right handed 7 against a left roundhouse.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> I also have solar plex shots on 6,8,9,12,14. My guess on 6 & 12 is those who are kicking to the groin are using some extra footwork or blocking to move them offline. I have no footwork prior to the initial kick so a kick to the groin on that interpretation would have my opponent falling on me on those two atleast. 8,9,14 could probably be just 1st kick to the groin without any change in the initial movement.


 
The kick doesn't necessarily need to be targeted to the groin, I see your point there, however, the kick will stop an attacker if targeted to the pelvis or bladder area as well. I some cases, the kick can be to the shin or knee. There are many times that the time is not available to get the kick to the dolar plexus without completely jamming yourself. Think about #6 against a left jab, can it be done? I say yes, use the forward leg to deliver a kick the the shin or knee, mostly as a check, but a low level kick can take the juice out of the jab. Yes, you may still get hit, it's a fight, expect it. Get hit with a weakened punch and besides the low kick/check normally brings your opponents head downwatd and within striking range, not a place they want to be in an off-balanced state. Just another thought added to all the others I've read.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Our #9 is a little shorter.
> 
> We do the same block/grab wit the left hand, and front ball kick to SP.
> After the kick we return the right foot into a crossover (twist stance), then side thrust kick to floating ribs, while with our right hand we use a rising tiger mouth strike to the wrist, knocking their arm straigh upwards. This elongates and their right side making it more vulnerable to the kick.
> 
> That's all, 2 kicks. but I do like the idea of flowing into a lock flow, more fun for class  :whip:


 
that's interesting Dave your 9 is what is often shown as 6&7 done one right after the other. You have the added block grab as 9 has and later the tiger's mouth lifting the wrist, but the middle section is exactly the 6 to 7 concept.


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> So many things... where is Matt when I need him..
> we are talking about a front ball kick here right? found in almost any system? A scared person with no training what so ever can at least be scared into kicking someone. Plus I remember arguements back in the day when people compared our combos to Kajukenbo and that started up a fun storm... you know kindof like the one we had 2 weeks ago when we lost power for 5 days.. yeah, real fun.
> So yes, I see that #6 has a move like in Kaju. but I feel that it really is just one of the no brainer moves that you want to teach first because its easy and will help the student to develop more adv. techniques later.
> Justin, this is not aimed at you just qouted you.


 No harm no foul and to be honest I agree with you.


----------



## JTKenpo

SK101 said:


> I also have solar plex shots on 6,8,9,12,14. My guess on 6 & 12 is those who are kicking to the groin are using some extra footwork or blocking to move them offline. I have no footwork prior to the initial kick so a kick to the groin on that interpretation would have my opponent falling on me on those two atleast. 8,9,14 could probably be just 1st kick to the groin without any change in the initial movement.


 
One thing that has to be taken into consideration is that most people don't attack with a step through punch, and if they are stepping through they have to plant before they throw the punch for it to be effective so why wait, hit them  in transition.


----------



## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> One thing that has to be taken into consideration is that most people don't attack with a step through punch, and if they are stepping through they have to plant before they throw the punch for it to be effective so why wait, hit them in transition.


 
Our typical class punch attack we train against is a step-after haymaker, wherein the right foot starts in the rear, and the momentum of throwing that right hand drags the right foot forward.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Our typical class punch attack we train against is a step-after haymaker, wherein the right foot starts in the rear, and the momentum of throwing that right hand drags the right foot forward.


 
no problem with that, still leaves the groin open which was my point.  Not saying strikes to the solor plexus are wrong in these combos.


----------



## DavidCC

Generally we have taught SP for most applications, with the thought that if you can kick high enough and accurately enough to get that, you can modify the target (ribs, groin etc) if needed.

However lately we have been tightening that up a bit (teaching specific targets w/o the variation) given the different body reactions from different targets, at least for our beginner students - senior students account for circumstances and reactions.

but what I am getting at is that we don't always teach the SP any more.  many of our techs that had used the SP are now targeted at the top of the pelvic bone (CV3, CV4) depending on the reaction we want for that particular tecnique...


----------



## Hand Sword

RevIV said:


> So many things... where is Matt when I need him..
> we are talking about a front ball kick here right? found in almost any system? A scared person with no training what so ever can at least be scared into kicking someone. Plus I remember arguements back in the day when people compared our combos to Kajukenbo and that started up a fun storm... you know kindof like the one we had 2 weeks ago when we lost power for 5 days.. yeah, real fun.
> So yes, I see that #6 has a move like in Kaju. but I feel that it really is just one of the no brainer moves that you want to teach first because its easy and will help the student to develop more adv. techniques later.
> Justin, this is not aimed at you just qouted you.


 
For us back then it was a combination of both. As it was at one time taught exactly as Kajukenbo's #1 technique (carried over probably from the lineage) I remember the change to what it is recognized as now. As was explained, it was being simplified in order to "spoon feed" the people looking to join. Kicking, blocking, and striking the bicep all at once was thought to be too difficult and it was made easier. :asian:


----------



## punisher73

Hand Sword said:


> For us back then it was a combination of both. As it was at one time taught exactly as Kajukenbo's #1 technique (carried over probably from the lineage) I remember the change to what it is recognized as now. As was explained, it was being simplified in order to "spoon feed" the people looking to join. Kicking, blocking, and striking the bicep all at once was thought to be too difficult and it was made easier. :asian:


 
I don't see #6 as a "simplified" version of Kajukenbo's punch counter #1 at all.  They may have taught #1, but I would say it is more accurate to say that the new SKK #6 REPLACED the previous.  All of the concepts and ideas of Kajukenbo's #1 are not there in the current #6 and it does not resemble it in anyway.

From your post I wasn't clear if you just meant that the system was simplified and the change was made or the technique was simplified and turned into the #6.  I would be interested in hearing more though, I like the historical roots stories of how things progressed.  In this case who/when made the change?


----------



## SK101

JTKenpo said:


> no problem with that, still leaves the groin open which was my point. Not saying strikes to the solor plexus are wrong in these combos.


 
   If the left leg is forward instead of right you may very well be changing targets. You also have the jab, which doesn't change targets necessarily, however you have to deal with the timing difference. 

   That being said anyone tried left handed 3 on a right handed cross punch attack? It may well be that any outside technique can be varied to left handed for right crosses. I will try that this weekend.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> If the left leg is forward instead of right you may very well be changing targets. You also have the jab, which doesn't change targets necessarily, however you have to deal with the timing difference.
> 
> That being said anyone tried left handed 3 on a right handed cross punch attack? It may well be that any outside technique can be varied to left handed for right crosses. I will try that this weekend.


 
Yes, I've done it. It works, but as with any technique that moves you to the inside, well, need to deal with follow-ups


----------



## Hand Sword

punisher73 said:


> I don't see #6 as a "simplified" version of Kajukenbo's punch counter #1 at all.  They may have taught #1, but I would say it is more accurate to say that the new SKK #6 REPLACED the previous.  All of the concepts and ideas of Kajukenbo's #1 are not there in the current #6 and it does not resemble it in anyway.



It doesn't? Let's see...Front kick? Yep. Both have it. Brush Block. Yep both have it. The only difference is Kaju's hammer to the bicep. So they are identical in everyway except for that. As, I said, that's how we taught #6 origially--exactly like Kaju's #1. And the reason it was dropped, or changed was given by what I said- "public friendly" basically.



punisher73 said:


> From your post I wasn't clear if you just meant that the system was simplified and the change was made or the technique was simplified and turned into the #6.  I would be interested in hearing more though, I like the historical roots stories of how things progressed.  In this case who/when made the change?



I didn't say anything about a system, just this specific technique. Overall, though, Mr. Villari did order things eased back, with the explanation of "spoon feeding" being used a lot. So, my guess is the order came from him at the time, as he was more involved.


----------



## punisher73

Hand Sword said:


> It doesn't? Let's see...Front kick? Yep. Both have it. Brush Block. Yep both have it. The only difference is Kaju's hammer to the bicep. So they are identical in everyway except for that. As, I said, that's how we taught #6 origially--exactly like Kaju's #1. And the reason it was dropped, or changed was given by what I said- "public friendly" basically.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say anything about a system, just this specific technique. Overall, though, Mr. Villari did order things eased back, with the explanation of "spoon feeding" being used a lot. So, my guess is the order came from him at the time, as he was more involved.


 
I can see your point if #6 has the brush block, the way I have seen and learned #6 is JUST the front ball kick and then cover out.  There is no hand motions at all.  That was why I made my post about it being a replacement and not a simplification.  The version you cited would be a simplified Kajukenbo #1.

That was my question, I wasn't sure your meaning.  I didn't know if just certain DM's were simplified by Villari or if you meant alot of the material was simplified for "commercial use".  What other changes did you observe with the DM's?


----------



## Hand Sword

Through the years with Villari's SKK, I saw plenty of changes. I had forms and combo's changed a few times. Especially when west coast instructors came in from Master Mattera's side. As for the DM's, I'm not familiar with them. I know they must have been overhauled too.

(Don't feel bad about your version of #6, I had that as one of my few changes too.-lol.) 

I guess that's the problem overall--standardazation of SKK. When it was just Villari related, the changes were dojo to dojo, instructor to instructor.


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> If the left leg is forward instead of right you may very well be changing targets. You also have the jab, which doesn't change targets necessarily, however you have to deal with the timing difference.
> 
> That being said anyone tried left handed 3 on a right handed cross punch attack? It may well be that any outside technique can be varied to left handed for right crosses. I will try that this weekend.


 
it works well for most of them

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

at some point one thinks that all the discussions on the what if's of various attacks are not missing the point. Perhaps, having as many techniques as skk does amounts to having effective follow up moves from any block / reaction we may have to an attack. No need to reset, built for situations where you are out numbered, with readily available controls to be used on the attacker or to punch a hole and run. It is interesting to have an elevated level of intensity, with an un known attack, with the knowldege that you are not going to be maimed or killed but could end up 'hurt', react then see if a combo was in there or what did you learn from a combo that helped you survive the attack. The set material is a way of training the information (WITH PROPER BASICS) skk is not , imo, about a plethora of techniques it is about learning effective continuous destructive motion until the threat is neutralized(Prof.I teaches skk defined this way) or you find a way to get out.
However, this thread and the discussions are interesting and useful, only it is in a slightly different direction than my end game with skk
just some thouhgts

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, I've done it. It works, but as with any technique that moves you to the inside, well, need to deal with follow-ups


 

Agreed, and the basics and mechanics of your entry / engagement move is to negate the follow up.  To try to out block some one for too llong is asking to get hit

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## SK101

Going back to DM 3 - I was watching some sparring drills the other day and a couple had low roundhouses to the lead leg to break the balance. It seemed to be an interesting entry to set up DM 3 or other outside techiques depending on their guard and how much they buckle. There is probably alot of ways to use DMs offensively, but it is a newer concept for me so I thought I would throw it out there. At that point is a variation a kempo or do we have to call them OMs?


----------



## Hand Sword

Could. The only problem for me, which has gone back throughout my training years, always arguing-lol, is the reality. Assuming it's the combination #3 as I know it, a real puncher is going to have the right leg in the rear. So, rounding the lead leg would be against the left front, having you end up in an less than ideal position to launch the combo. We originally learned it as against a right cross, slip, straight right/hook to ribs or groin area, left hook jaw, right upper cut, take down, hit.

I guess my beef is about building "wrong" or "bad" habits. Going for a leg that won't be there if for real.


----------



## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> Could. The only problem for me, which has gone back throughout my training years, always arguing-lol, is the reality. Assuming it's the combination #3 as I know it, a real puncher is going to have the right leg in the rear. So, rounding the lead leg would be against the left front, having you end up in an less than ideal position to launch the combo. We originally learned it as against a right cross, slip, straight right/hook to ribs or groin area, left hook jaw, right upper cut, take down, hit.
> 
> I guess my beef is about building "wrong" or "bad" habits. Going for a leg that won't be there if for real.


 
true but one could go for the lead leg before the punch is thrown then enter with #3 lefty rt hammer to the head, left bladder/ groin strike then rt cross hammer to the chest left back 2 knuckle to the head control manipulate take down ...

could one still call this combo 3 or an application of the form of combo 3?...

Here is a fun drill prof I gives as a mushin exercise...no stopping to think to work it out just respond to the wild attack controlling for the variables given:  start with one technique end with another...start with the middle of a technique from a grab or push or something other than the usual step through punch...in other words ,explore.  Yoiu will find some crap but then you may find the philosophers stone
.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Hand Sword

:flushed: So much for my input, if you wanna play the "what if" game.


----------



## punisher73

Hand Sword said:


> Could. The only problem for me, which has gone back throughout my training years, always arguing-lol, is the reality. Assuming it's the combination #3 as I know it, a real puncher is going to have the right leg in the rear. So, rounding the lead leg would be against the left front, having you end up in an less than ideal position to launch the combo. We originally learned it as against a right cross, slip, straight right/hook to ribs or groin area, left hook jaw, right upper cut, take down, hit.
> 
> I guess my beef is about building "wrong" or "bad" habits. Going for a leg that won't be there if for real.


 
I agree, the DM's are set up for a self-defense type situation.  The original #3 was set up for a boxer's stance, and the right leg would be back.  If you kick "first" you are attacking and have changed the concept of what #3 taught, that being slipping and moving off-line.  If you work with the "step-through" punch it is still valid, because an untrained person that is going to attack throws his weight forward and this brings that leg forward and through.  #3 is still valid because you are slipping and getting off-line of the attack.

To use an analogy, in American Kenpo they have "freestyle" techniques.  Many people assume that they are designed for tournament fighting only.  But, their main application is knowing you are about to be in a fight and are taking the initiative, or your self-defense technique didn't work and you are in a "free fighting" type situation.  While the lessons of the DM's are going to be applicable, their application is going to be different because of the nature of the fight at that point.  

Adding "what-ifs" to the situation is sometimes a futile exercise because it is endless and isn't sometimes the most productive because you really need to define some parameters of the scenario and what you are trying to accomplish.


----------



## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> :flushed: So much for my input, if you wanna play the "what if" game.


 
not at all.  i was responding to your comment.  there are too many endless what if's.

marlon


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## Hand Sword

That's ok. I was attempting sarcasm back, but with my home computer I couldn't paste this p) on there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It's true about the what if's as both you and punisher spoke about. You do need parameters IMHO too, and anything can fit with prefixes and suffixes added to it. I was simply talking towards the question of the post about particular attacks that the design of the combo/dm is set up for as is. That was my response to SK101's idea of doing things. I always saw the danger that came from automatic responses to targets that probably wouldn't be there for real. Combine that with going for them, or "the deer in the headlight syndrome" of freezing up as your brain scans the file for the stimuli that wasn't prepared for or familiar.


----------



## marlon

no problem sir.  Hand sword, what is your solution to the problem you raise?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Hand Sword

I guess the only solution is when designing a defense do it against a set attack based on realism. If it's a cross then the front leg is the left, etc..

Overall though, this argument can and will go on forever (especially in this forum). I'd rather discuss what the topic is and that's the attacks that the Combos or DM"S are set up for-as is.


----------



## SK101

Hand Sword said:


> Could. The only problem for me, which has gone back throughout my training years, always arguing-lol, is the reality. Assuming it's the combination #3 as I know it, a real puncher is going to have the right leg in the rear. So, rounding the lead leg would be against the left front, having you end up in an less than ideal position to launch the combo. We originally learned it as against a right cross, slip, straight right/hook to ribs or groin area, left hook jaw, right upper cut, take down, hit.
> 
> I guess my beef is about building "wrong" or "bad" habits. Going for a leg that won't be there if for real.


 
  This is just my humble opinion. 

  To me the half moon isn't incorrect it is the easy way to learn a technique since their is more time for the student to react, then you vary from working off a cross punch, hook, grab, kick, to having the attacker spar slow to medium pace while attacking. You learn the alphabet first rather than teaching words first and saying we don't talk with letters.


----------



## Hand Sword

Ok. 

As I said, a whole 'nother argument for a seperate thread.


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## SK101

Hand Sword said:


> Ok.
> 
> As I said, a whole 'nother argument for a seperate thread.


 
   I hear ya. I hope if we disagree on something no one takes it as we don't want to hear the input. Disagreement is a good thing alot of times and I like the way you phrase your responses. You are very respectful. In my humble opinion there is not enough of the humility in the martial arts. It is an ego driven industry. I stopped associating with people outside SK when to many crazy outsiders had stopped by the studio. It was amazing how many people were world champions in my little neighborhood. There must have been something in the water.

   I may get some people disagreeing here, but I like the what ifs sometimes if you practice them substantially less than the "regular" technique. I always worry if I practice DM 2 x 50 times assuming I missed the left control will I be practicing "screwing up" to the point where I actually make screwing up more likely. I think there may be some danger in that respect.


----------



## 14 Kempo

I have to agree, in a way. The halfmoon in with the right lunge punch makes the opponent predictable while learning a technique. Predictability makes for a safer environment for both. If I am asked to perform a new movement and you are allowed to punch at me in anyway you feel is right at the time, well, most likely somebody is going to get hit, possibly hurt and it could very well be me. If #3 is new to me and you decide to throw a right hook while I'm stepping to 11 o'clock and parrying across with my left, well, I'm gonna catch a punch in the left temple. A workout partner needs to be predictable in the beginning. As you become more proficient with a movement, ecperiment with it against varying attacks. As with the example above, some would say that #3 won't work against a right hook punch. And as it is taught, I would have to agree, however, once advanced enough I would vary that technique to make it work. Maybe use an open handed #2 block while closing the distance by still stepping to 11 o'clock. Strike to the groin, it will be wide open in this position. Maybe after that I would think  about bringing my right up with a tiger's mouth to the throat as I use my left to collapse the opponents right leg. Or maybe after the punch to the groin, finish with #7 to the opponents front leg. I don't know, but it is obvious, at least to me, that if the opponents varies, I need to do the same. I don't believe anybody should be fooled into thinking that a technique has to be done in its entirety, repeat the basic mvement over and over so that they become tools that are available. Your mind will begin to recognize varying positions that you find yourself in with varying attacks and will begin to react acordingly without having to think through this stuff. In most situations, if you take time to think of what you are going to do, you will get hurt. JMHO


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## Hand Sword

1st....Can I have some of that water? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




2nd.... you're right in a way, as there is truth to what you say, as well as to all of the other points people give. That's why I don't want to get into this in this area, which is famous for these on going arguments about "the gospel" of training methods they use. Everyone has proof for their reasoning, so it can be backed up. I respect everyone's ideas and it is great to interract and hear them. But, i want to stay with the idea of the thread with how the design is already and what they are dealing with. Unfortunately, they are all "punch defenses" even though, when looking at them, they are clearly not intended for that. I'd like to get at that source as it is slowly disappearing in favor of the do what ever you want and run with it theory. It's also kind of tough when the Combo people compare notes with the DM people after everything has been changed.


----------



## Hand Sword

To my Kempo brothers and sisters, I realize that my post "Hi-Jacked things" sending them into a philosophy discussion instead of the one asked by the question.

I apologize to all. :asian: 


Back to the discussion. I won't interfere, and I'll play nice.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Hand Sword said:


> To my Kempo brothers and sisters, I realize that my post "Hi-Jacked things" sending them into a philosophy discussion instead of the one asked by the question.
> 
> I apologize to all. :asian:
> 
> 
> Back to the discussion. I won't interfere, and I'll play nice.


 
I'm not so sure it was a complete hi-jack, the words "Various Attacks" is in the title afterall ... maybe a partial hi-jack.


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## SK101

Hand Sword said:


> 1st....Can I have some of that water?
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> Unfortunately, they are all "punch defenses" even though, when looking at them, they are clearly not intended for that. I'd like to get at that source as it is slowly disappearing in favor of the do what ever you want and run with it theory. It's also kind of tough when the Combo people compare notes with the DM people after everything has been changed.


 
   I am leaning in that direction as well. I believe the DMs were meant for a high punch, low punch, hook,etc., but to make them easy to learn were put into a format of working only off the half moon in with front punch to chest. There are very few DMs that I have been taught that I haven't been able to utilize myself, but prior to interacting with different SK instructors there were many more that confused me. If you look at USSD manual or at least the one that was around when I was there DM 3 is said to be the first technique where we learn bob and weave. There is no bob and weave in the #3 unless the attacker is using a hook. As far as I can tell there is no other reason to use the bob and weave for #3 besides changing the attack to a hook. DM #5 is listed in the manual as a stabbing knife defense and if you alter the block it is, but it certainly isn't a knife technique if you do exactly the standardized way.

   I heard someone say once that every technique is a knife,club,hook, kick attack. I wouldn't go to that degree, but change the footwork and the block and you can use a DM at least a dozen ways. Just don't change the DM, because you are right we then can't exchange ideas very easily since it becomes SK James or SK Curtis instead of SK. 

   From a teaching point of view I also agree with the one attack format. I can imagine teaching each DM with a different attack and watching the beginners and intermediates trying to remember what attack goes with what #. As it is the students complain about trying remember what tech was 3 vs 8. At some point you have to stop acquiring more material and start exploring.


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## Hand Sword

As a side note, and my last interference, we're almost on 20 pages and we're still discussing # 3 combination! And still, we haven't come away with any answer of how to do it, or go about it decisively! It also carried over into other threads which involved #6 just as much. You gotta love it in some twisted sense!

Only in the Kempo area can this go on! You at least got to feel some specialness.


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## SK101

Hand Sword said:


> As a side note, and my last interference, we're almost on 20 pages and we're still discussing # 3 combination! And still, we haven't come away with any answer of how to do it, or go about it decisively! It also carried over into other threads which involved #6 just as much. You gotta love it in some twisted sense!
> 
> Only in the Kempo area can this go on! You at least got to feel some specialness.


 
   I actually like that. I wasn't actually looking for an answer to how to do #3. Only looking to see if we can reach 1,000,000 variations of 3(JK). If your really stuck with doing 3 off a cross punch and that is where your heart is I would say do it "left handed off a right cross". Your angle will be varied so you may not use a front punch, but you can always use a hook to the groin or something else. 

   Does anyone have a variation on higher DM so I don't drive everyone insane with my insistance on playing with #3. I don't usually toy(exp w/variations) with the DMs above the first 6 for some reason so I don't have anything I can really contribute on those.


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## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> I guess the only solution is when designing a defense do it against a set attack based on realism. If it's a cross then the front leg is the left, etc..
> 
> Overall though, this argument can and will go on forever (especially in this forum). I'd rather discuss what the topic is and that's the attacks that the Combos or DM"S are set up for-as is.


 
agreed, my thing is that i do not look at the dm's as being set up for particular attacks.  i see the learning tool of the step through punch to teach the body mechanics and such (like a mini form) and then the application is another story.  Realistically we cannot stop and sort throufgh possible responsess to an unexpected attack.  we react, hopefully with the right body mechanics then flow logically from there

Respectfully,
marlon


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## marlon

SK101 said:


> This is just my humble opinion.
> 
> To me the half moon isn't incorrect it is the easy way to learn a technique since their is more time for the student to react, then you vary from working off a cross punch, hook, grab, kick, to having the attacker spar slow to medium pace while attacking. You learn the alphabet first rather than teaching words first and saying we don't talk with letters.


 

the reason that the thread on the c step or half mooning convinced me to let it go was the issue of the body mechanics.  See the thread and decid for yourself it those issues out weigh the safety issues which imo can be controlled with out the comprimise discussed in the other thread.  Your choice, of course

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## DavidCC

I agree that using a slowly executed, precisely specified attack in the learning stages of acquiring a new technique is absolutely the right thing to do.  However, none of those factors dictate that it be a "right half moon w/ front punch to the chest" or even that it be the same attack for every technique.

For many years my teacher taught all of the punch counters against the same punch.  But now we are teaching vs haymaker w/ step-thru, cross, hook, roundhouse since each tech seems to work OPTIMALLY against one of them...  Using a specific technique against other attacks is still addressed once a student has progressed past the learning stage, even if it is "and here's why you don't go to the outside of a haymaker or the inside of a cross... unless..."

Our program categorizes punch, knife, club, gun and grab techniques but we do also look at mixing those up - doing club tech vs knife, punch vs a grab etc.  Each weapon brings its own concerns but the movements can be applied...


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## SK101

marlon said:


> the reason that the thread on the c step or half mooning convinced me to let it go was the issue of the body mechanics. See the thread and decid for yourself it those issues out weigh the safety issues which imo can be controlled with out the comprimise discussed in the other thread. Your choice, of course
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
   I can understand and respect that. Did you start teaching it to white belts or choose a point where students loose the training wheels so to speak. Just curious what attack are you using for the DMs?


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## marlon

SK101 said:


> I can understand and respect that. Did you start teaching it to white belts or choose a point where students loose the training wheels so to speak. Just curious what attack are you using for the DMs?


 
i used to teach the half moon the first class. now i simply do not teach it at all. as for the combos we learn each one with the step through punch and then later start adding the variable attacks. we often discuss what was difficult and go back to the basics, practice again with the step through punch with a better understanding of the basics and get better with the variables. More often though i like to have people react from thier intial block and show where such things are in the combos, animal techniques/ jujitsu techniques and forms.  My intent is to help them realize the efficacy of thier learning and that way have them bring more to thier practice.  My intent is that thier reactions have solid basics and effective follow up movement, and not necessarily to have them pull off a combo perfectly when they are threatened.  my intent is to make sure they make it home

Respectfully,
marlon


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## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> i used to teach the half moon the first class. now i simpley do not teach it at all ...


 
We teach the halfmoon for a few reasons, but the simpliest reason is to teach people to step through their center. Stepping through their center allows for non-committed movement. I could go more into this, but without having gone through the previous thread talking to this, I will assume it has been covered.



marlon said:


> ... as for the combos we learn each one with the step through punch and then later start adding the variable attacks. we often discuss what was difficult and go back to the basics, practice again with the step through punch wit habetter understanding of the basics and get better with the varialbes ...


 
We are the same here. We teach in virtually the same manner.


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## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> Think about #6 against a left jab, can it be done? I say yes, use the forward leg to deliver a kick the the shin or knee, mostly as a check, but a low level kick can take the juice out of the jab. Yes, you may still get hit, it's a fight, expect it. Get hit with a weakened punch and besides the low kick/check normally brings your opponents head downwatd and within striking range, not a place they want to be in an off-balanced state. Just another thought added to all the others I've read.


 
   I would think even if you don't use it as jab variation of 6, practicing the leg checks are intergral. Utilize the technique anytime someone steps toward you.


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## SK101

Hand Sword said:


> I wouldn't do that. Leaning your body and weight back takes the power out of your kick going forward. Plus if they are lunginging in, your impact will knock you backward, off balance. It could be messy for you.
> 
> I would agree there is less power. I haven't had any problems stopping my training partners so far. I was watching Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's students doing the lean away kick for 3 of their knife attacks on his self defense video volume II. The first technique was pick up two rocks throw one then shoot in with lean away front kick. I like the idea of being to just hit your training partners with rocks. That must work wonders for the stress reduction.


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## Hand Sword

Any hitting, where you are not on the receiving end relieves stress!  Although, there are some they get relief being on the receiving end too. I dunno.


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## Hand Sword

#1 Combo against a south paw. Jab with right, You tight monkey block it and the normally circular arm wrap now picks up the left cross. The right eye rake flows into an arm bar, chicken wrist, take down by stepping in front of their legs-face plant!


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## Hand Sword

#1 combo with you on the ground, them mounted, choking you (with 1 or 2 hands): Monkey grab choking tricep/back of arm and pull, Arch body into "cat" stance -- bucking them forward and sideways (they post with free right arm). Do the arm wrap-around their head and back of neck. Continue roll over and finish the technique (rake, chicken wrist, tiger mouth, punch, chop--a little ground and pound! )


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## Hand Sword

Opponent lapel grabs you with a left hand and draws back his right for a face puch...do #2 combination while your left hand traps his. The arm will break or open their body up for the rest of the technique!


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## Hand Sword

Hmmm.. #2 combination and "Mace of Aggression?"  Yep! It's there. Just add #2's takedown and chop to the same attack!


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## Yondanchris

I really enjoy Kenpo Joe and Jim Brassard cover the variables of the combinations in their teaching style, I was thankful that others are considering the possibilities. 



MJS said:


> Interestingly enough, I came across these 2 techs. on youtube today, compliments of our very own KenpoJoe!  Rather than start a new thread, I posted them here, as I feel that they are addressing the same topic that we're discussing here.
> 
> Combo 3
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2FltacEzg&NR=1
> 
> Combo 16


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## Yondanchris

marlon said:


> i used to teach the half moon the first class. now i simply do not teach it at all. as for the combos we learn each one with the step through punch and then later start adding the variable attacks. we often discuss what was difficult and go back to the basics, practice again with the step through punch with a better understanding of the basics and get better with the variables.


 

Half-Moon movement is important to me because of its prevelance in the SKK forms and its lessons on balance and movement are crucial for a beginner in the Martial Arts much less Kenpo/Kempo. 

Beginner students do not have the knowledge and much less the experience, to comprehend or even facilitate multiple variables that we 
are talking about. With time, skill, and training Beginner students become aquinted with the art and then are introduced to variables and "extensions" to the base techniques that we are discussing. 

Because of these reasons I encourage intermediate/advanced students to 
begin thinking of mutations/permutations of these techniques and to place them into catagories or subjects to evaluate on their own. This aids in the forming of their thesis for Black Belt. 

My humble yet ignorant .02 cents, 

Chris


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## KenpoJustin

So as far as the half mooning is concerned we're referring to the practice of having the uke half moon in as he punches, correct? I have to say how I do it, instead of doing the half mooning is you have the uke already have their right leg forward for beginner students and treat the punch as if it were a jab from a south paw, and then I do practice my techniques versus an orthodox boxing stance as well. An interesting thing to do to make it a little more difficult is to have your uke attempt to immediate withdraw the strike as would be expected from a boxer. Those are all changes I try to teach people as they go up in ranks.

Now concerning the initial conversation of combinations from different strikes. I'm gonna jump to 21 just because I enjoy that one! First off, the way I have 21 is with an outward left knifehand block rolling into grabbing the attacker's wrist while stepping underneath their arm and doing a leopard's paw strike to their armpit. After the strike you step your right foot through and your left foot into a right front stance on their back right side while maintaining control of their arm. Followed by a knifehand strike to the back of their elbow into a rolling back fist to the base of their skull. Then a dragon's tail stomp to their right leg and a spinning hook kick to the back of their head after they are forced to take a knee. 

I don't see a lot of problems doing this combination from a right cross with the left leg forward. I think the big difference is you may have to step a little further when going under the arm and you may be doing the dragon tail stomp a little more to the side of the knee, which should still successfully compress their knee. Now a slightly more interesting one! I think you could do this technique with the standard method to the outside of the body. Say for example your opponent was in an orthodox boxer's stance and they threw a jab. You could step into a right front stance, while slipping their jab, grab their left wrist, knifehand strike just past their elbow, roll into a backfist to the face, probably just below their left eye. Shift your weight more to your back leg and do a dragon tail stomp to their left leg. Followed by a spinning hook kick from either leg really, but I think going into a good cross step and doing it with your left leg to their back of the skull would be the better move. Anyone have any opinions on this?


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## KenpoJustin

Thinking about it again I think the hook would more likely come to the temple... I'm going to have to try this on someone today and see how it works.


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## RevIV

I do it slightly different, after the step through we do a downward elbow right above the elbow on the end of the Tricep and then a cross body shuto to the back of the neck followed by a grab of their left shoulder.  The grab is crucial if you are doing the spinning hook kick after the stomp.  As you stomp bring your right hand (holding shoulder) to your left hip.  this forces uke down and keeps them upright at the same time.  I like your variations and starting points of the tech.  Something I def. could play around with in the school.


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## KenpoJustin

RevIV said:


> I do it slightly different, after the step through we do a downward elbow right above the elbow on the end of the Tricep and then a cross body shuto to the back of the neck followed by a grab of their left shoulder.  The grab is crucial if you are doing the spinning hook kick after the stomp.  As you stomp bring your right hand (holding shoulder) to your left hip.  this forces uke down and keeps them upright at the same time.  I like your variations and starting points of the tech.  Something I def. could play around with in the school.



I like what you're saying about the shoulder hold to keep them up, but if you do a little bit of a slower motion when stepping into your spinning hook kick you'll find it's second nature for a lot of people to start standing up immediately after you do the stomp to the back of their leg. Although some may go into a roll or something to get away from the situation, it is kind of hard to gauge what a real person would do on the response of an uke.

Another thing I've noticed about the combinations, especially the first 26, they're for the most part fairly simple to accomplish during a sparring situation, in my opinion a lot simpler than many of the techniques that I've learned. So I'm wondering if this may necessitate a review of which techniques are really worth keeping. My father was telling me the other day that when he trained with Professor Nick Cerio he said he wasn't a huge fan of anything having a lot of strikes in it, that you'd be lucky if you were fast to get off two or three. I guess that's why he was really big into shotokan, and I think you can see that a lot in Nick Cerio's Kenpo... just some thoughts I was having.


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## Hand Sword

It's also realistic too. Hitting someone multiple times, in multiple places, with multiple strikes is almost impossible. Too many reactions, movements by both of you, unexpected things, etc... Think of how even trained fighters have trouble doing that, even when an opponent is "stunned." Now, after striking briefly and going for control (BJJ, wrestling, Clinching, felling, etc..), that's a different take.


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## KenpoJustin

So what do people think about combination 4? I read through this entire forum the other day and I don't think it was mentioned. In general it's ridiculously brutal and I don't think expecting the person to fall down immediately after the downward roundhouse ball kick to the chest makes a whole lot of sense. Does anyone have/do the beginning another way to make it actually function as a take down? I have something I was kind of working on, but I'm not sure how well it'd work... It's one of those things I think I'd have to practice quite a few times against an uki with a chest pad. Pretty much I've been trying it with a palm block on the outside of their punching hand, simultaneously while stepping 45 degrees to the left and then a downward roundhouse with effectively your ankle hitting them in the neck and your shin hitting across their chest. Not really so much like the kicks I've been taught in kenpo, because I was doing it without bringing it to crane first. I would love some feed back on this or just other ideas to kind of keep the spirit of the combination but make it seem more realistic.


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## KenpoJustin

By entire forum, I meant this thread... my bad.


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## Josh Oakley

KenpoJustin said:


> So what do people think about combination 4? I read through this entire forum the other day and I don't think it was mentioned. In general it's ridiculously brutal and I don't think expecting the person to fall down immediately after the downward roundhouse ball kick to the chest makes a whole lot of sense. Does anyone have/do the beginning another way to make it actually function as a take down? I have something I was kind of working on, but I'm not sure how well it'd work... It's one of those things I think I'd have to practice quite a few times against an uki with a chest pad. Pretty much I've been trying it with a palm block on the outside of their punching hand, simultaneously while stepping 45 degrees to the left and then a downward roundhouse with effectively your ankle hitting them in the neck and your shin hitting across their chest. Not really so much like the kicks I've been taught in kenpo, because I was doing it without bringing it to crane first. I would love some feed back on this or just other ideas to kind of keep the spirit of the combination but make it seem more realistic.


 
I have that kick to the head. Also, I have a tiger rake to the head before the kick. 

Also, how in God's name fo you manage to hit the neck with with your ankle at the same time you hit the chest with your shin? (do you mean instep?)

Plus the way you're stepping, it would be hard to pull off at medium to close range.


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## Jdokan

My instructor's version of #4 is more linear.  The opening is still left palm to right hand but as the right rediects the punch it isn't as violent, it gets passed off to your left side.  As that happens the left hand does a downwards rake followed by 2 more..a right and left.  Just as the second left finishes the right foot ball/toe kicks the stomach/sternum.  Step forward into a right foot forward twist stacnce and deliver double palms to the midsection driving the opponent backwards and down to the floor...the tricky part with this portion is to ensure the energy/force is downwards to the floor behind them (not towards the wall behind them)...they end up on their back directly in front of you...finsh as usual......For me this is to fancy...a very nice technique but I like the old way...throw the arm & roundhouse them to the face....I don't even bother with the ending movements anymore....


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## Matt

As far as I know, the ending (jump over someone who is on their back and break you own ankles trying to land on their round head) did not exist in the Pesare version, and Walter Godin would expressly forbid straddling a downed opponent as they would be likely to execute 'monkey steals the peach' on you. Since Godin is credited as contributing combination four, (see the kaju roots) I'd certainly respect his opinion on it. His version also stepped forward on the initial move, not back. I still do the arm whip to lead their torso into the shin kick that takes them off their feet, but I contemplate the ending very differently these days.


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## RevIV

I do the downward rake and kick them in the face, landing in right over left twist.  I then pause and watch downed opponent, if they are no longer a threat i continue my cross and cover.. if they are still twitching I uncross stepping near their outer hip with right leg and then one more step with left near head and deliver a final blow with right hand.  Taking my time at the end.


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## Jdokan

TO deal with a potentially still 'live" opponent we used to heel kick the groin in a upwards scooping action then deliver a downward stomp kick as they reacted to the groin kick....then end with the straddle....I do have mixed emotions about straddling the guy as well but I think depending on the situation the responsiveness of the opponent these are all factors that have to taken into consideration...as we'd do throughout any portion of the technique....We always consider the potential for where we are in a technique:  "If I continnue with this do I place my safety in jeopardy"...I think we do this without even thinking about it anymore...isn't that what helps determining advanced skill?


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## Josh Oakley

KenpoJustin said:


> and then a downward roundhouse with effectively your ankle hitting them in the neck and your shin hitting across their chest.



I'm still not understand how this is physically possible.


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## KenpoJustin

Josh Oakley said:


> I'm still not understang how this is physically possible.



I think i was thinking the instep of your right foot hitting the left side of the neck more so than the instep, then hopefully keep following through to have the rest of your leg, i.e. shin go across the left side of their chest. I think it lines up like that especially if they're taller than you. Maybe I'm trying too hard trying to squeeze that in their with the throat strike. I do like some of the comments about how you guys perform this combination. Especially about not doing the finishing up part do to the giant vulnerability you're leaving yourself in... not to mention the legal ramifications!


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## KenpoJustin

Sorry, right leg going across the right side of their chest... yeah, again not so sure how well it'd work, need to mess with it. hell maybe I'd be better just forgetting about the neck and trying to lay my entire leg into their chest.


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## Josh Oakley

KenpoJustin said:


> I think i was thinking the instep of your right foot hitting the left side of the neck more so than the instep, then hopefully keep following through to have the rest of your leg, i.e. shin go across the left side of their chest. I think it lines up like that especially if they're taller than you. Maybe I'm trying too hard trying to squeeze that in their with the throat strike. I do like some of the comments about how you guys perform this combination. Especially about not doing the finishing up part do to the giant vulnerability you're leaving yourself in... not to mention the legal ramifications!



This makes more sense than somehow hitting the neck with your _ankle_
while at the same time hitting the chest with your _shin_.Anatomically impossible.


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## KENPOJOE

Hi folks!
2 years ago [yes this thread has been going on that long!]
There had been discussion on several of the Karazenpo Goshinjutsu/New England based kenpo/Shaolin Kempo combinations So I thought I'd mention one and go over it and see what people had to say about it and possibly supplement it with a youtube video!
Combination 4:
vs a front right step through straight punch to the face
From a horse stance facing opponent, step back to 6 o'clock into a left halfmoon stance  while executing a right upward block [#5 block from the 8 point blocking system] to the underside of opponent's wrist. Grab underside of opponent's wrist with right hand and execute a clockwise vertical sweeping action to clear opponent's hand and open up opponent,causing his upper body and face to draw forward and downward and his arm straightens and extends backward. from the end of your circular arm sweep,your hand  in a tiger claw position,executes  outward downward diagonal rake to the right side of your opponent's face [preferably at the right maxillary hinge to dislocate the jaw and rip at the right ear] causing the opponent's face to turn to diagonally down to the left as the hand drops to a diagonal downward position past the your right hip. Immediately execute a right roundhouse ball kick to your opponent's heart area [NOTE:some stylists will kick an opponent in the face (nose)] to cause opponent to fall backwards to the ground.[NOTE: the previous bent over position cause the roundhouse kick to work more effectively on said opponent ] As the opponent falls,have your right foot that is still in the air cross over into a twist stance [AKA twisted horse,Lady,Dragon or crossed leg stance {"front twist stance-EPAKK}]toward 7:30,looking to 12-10.30 depending angle of opponent's fall. With your opponent prone with legs apart, execute right front stomping heel kick to opponent's groin.Using his groin a a springboard,push off his scrotum and leap into the air and land with both feet simultaneously on your opponent's face/nose,thereby crushing his nose and splitting his face open. As your feet part, land in ahorse stance over your opponent's face. Squat down and execute {Beginner}a right front two knuckle immediately followed by a left front two knuckle to opponent's nose/face. {Advanced} Execute simultaneous vertical "immortal man" two finger pokes to each eye, followed by a right then left vertical "trigger finger/phoenix eye/one knuckle strike to each sinus cavity/cheekbone of opponent's face. execute a right inward sweeping kick with the arch/sole of your right foot to the left side of your fallen opponent's face to turn it toward you as your foot goes into a right side blade flamingo stance [aka crane stance,one leg stance] and immediately execute a right  side blade kick to opponent's face [acting as a vertical knife edge strike to opponent's face. Cross and cover out to 9 o'clock 
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

KenpoJustin said:


> So what do people think about combination 4? I read through this entire forum the other day and I don't think it was mentioned. In general it's ridiculously brutal and I don't think expecting the person to fall down immediately after the downward roundhouse ball kick to the chest makes a whole lot of sense. Does anyone have/do the beginning another way to make it actually function as a take down? I have something I was kind of working on, but I'm not sure how well it'd work... It's one of those things I think I'd have to practice quite a few times against an uki with a chest pad. Pretty much I've been trying it with a palm block on the outside of their punching hand, simultaneously while stepping 45 degrees to the left and then a downward roundhouse with effectively your ankle hitting them in the neck and your shin hitting across their chest. Not really so much like the kicks I've been taught in kenpo, because I was doing it without bringing it to crane first. I would love some feed back on this or just other ideas to kind of keep the spirit of the combination but make it seem more realistic.


Hi folks!
Dear Justin,
I read your post and let me ask you a few questions:
If you read my description of combo #4, at the point of the roundhouse kick, is your opponent's sufficiently bent over w/ right arm extended and twisted to locked position?
Is his face turned away from you rather than looking downward [allowing you to possibly kick him in the right temple?] By placing your opponent in the proper reactionary position, he is far more off balance o knock him down from the kick.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## SK101

*Response to write out on #4*

   I love the detail on the description of the technique. I don't have the patience to write stuff out in that amount of detail. The only areas I would question are the axe kick to groin and the landing on the face. There have been arguments made that your platform becomes unstable after you hit the groin. Some people view the legs as closer together and step next to the hip without performing any kick before the jump. Others have used an axe ball kick to groin so they can slide there foot onto the floor before jumping. 

   GM Cerio had once argued that landing on the face would break your ankles as you slide off. I don't know if he was viewing the technique with the head up from a groin strike or with the step to side of hip and jump version. Like any technique there may be a detail that avoids the ankle problem assuming that it is a problem. 

*Response to applying the takedown*

   On the takedown the two full applications that I have heard are the continuous change in direction theory where the opponent is extended with the #5 block toward roughly 4:30 then sent back with the arm throw toward 10:30 then pulled 4:30 with the rake and then finally taken off there feet with the roundhouse kick to the nose/face sending them again toward 10:30.

   The other was described by my former assistant who punched in for master black from USSD Vegas. He was hit with a roundhouse roughly in the mid sternum and launched into the air. The logo/heart may be a training target for safety. Master Lei from my understanding once hit to high on the roundhouse and wound up striking a students windpipe instead of the sternum nearly killing the student. This was at least a third party conversation I had so always best to recheck the source if someone talks to master Lei in San Diego. 

*Details on technique*

   The twist stance in DM/Combo 4 is often translated as a what if. If the take down isn't succesful you have the option to cross out and attack again. You look at the situation as you are moving into the twist and your next move is based on the opponents response.

   The strikes to the eyes were taught me as a way to create pressure in the head before striking the temples. If those four strikes are reversed (triggers then immortals) then you are bugging the eyes out with the first strikes and driving them back in with the second. There is an argument against reversing them on this technique as you are coming down after the jump so immortals should be more advantages as you have marriage to gravity on your side.

*Misc thoughts*

   Many MA techniques are hard to verify if we are doing them right when you can't actually try them on people. I don't really care for people landing on my face. I am too sensitive that way. 

   It is good to see more SK people posting on this sight. I learn and relearn alot when I reread these posts.


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## SK101

A variation off 4 - Step toward 10:30 and block overhead club. 2nd move is the same as normal except you use a shuto to neck instead of tiger rake and end technique there.


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## Josh Oakley

SK101 said:


> Many MA techniques are hard to verify if we are doing them right when you can't actually try them on people. I don't really care for people landing on my face. I am too sensitive that way.
> 
> It is good to see more SK people posting on this sight. I learn and relearn alot when I reread these posts.



Of course you can try them!
:snipe2:
Just... you know.... don't get caught...


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## RevIV

Combination #11.

After the take down I wrap up the leg like a headlock. My forearm (radial bone) is in the middle of their calf and foot is all the way through my lock.  I see some schools just hold the foot with their hands after take down.  What do the people here do?


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## Jdokan

I also wrap the leg...my r/arm encirles their leg while my left hand presses into it...causing more pain to that nerve area...the intent is to cause them to respond to that pain (and not try and fight me while I turn them over).....After the wrap I drop my r/knee into femoral artery of their l/leg....


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## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> I also wrap the leg...my r/arm encirles their leg while my left hand presses into it...causing more pain to that nerve area...the intent is to cause them to respond to that pain (and not try and fight me while I turn them over).....After the wrap I drop my r/knee into femoral artery of their l/leg....


 
or their groin?  Def. hit the nerve bundle where their gastroc. (calf) and soleus meet.  Give a good tuck on that nerve and they lift their hips off the ground themselves -- JDokan you should check out the seminar I have coming up on Nov. 6th and 7th.


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## marlon

In 11, after the sweep I let the back of the hand that swept the leg stick to the inner ankle and the other hand shaped like a ridge hand makes contact near the small toe.  I squeeze both hands to my chest.  This applies pressure twisting the ankle.The knee drop to the groin facilitates this little intricay, but once prcticed it flows nicely.  As I step across their body they move in no small part because of the pressure on the ankle.  If they don't I can walk away because they won't be running after me any time soon


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## SK101

"So what do people think about combination 4? I read through this entire forum the other day and I don't think it was mentioned. In general it's ridiculously brutal and I don't think expecting the person to fall down immediately after the downward roundhouse ball kick to the chest makes a whole lot of sense. "

When I was taught combination 4 I was told the twist stance was the what if. If the person doesn't fall down you can cross out or anything else you want, but it is there in case they don't fall down. The are different versions of the take down with the roundhouse kick. One version puts the roundhouse slightly below the throat and one of my students had the fun of being put through the air with application so he knew it worked. On the negative side I was told one of the Masters injured a student by kicking slightly too high and catching the throat with the roundhouse. This may be the reason that particular SK school tends to teach roundhouse to the heart for safety.

Another version has the body being constantly manipulated forward and backwards with block pull throw of the arm and roundhouse to face in that version. The changing of direction is supposed to be a major component in performing the takedown. Doesn't really matter if it doesn't take then down however since the changing of direction ends with the face coming forward into the roundhouse so the attempted takedown helps with injuring the attacker even if you don't pull it off well enough for the takedown.

There have been a couple of tips over the years about the jump. When you strike the groin some SK/SKK people hit with just the ball of the foot and slide off to the ground after the strike. Theory being if you do the jump right off their groin they get wobbly with your weight on their groin. The person who taught me that found out the hard way that people move when you step on them.

Also one of the Masters was told by the late Professor Cerio that the ankles will break if you try splitting the face as taught from the jump. I have wondered for awhile if turning the feet outward and using the heel portion of your feet landing on the face would be better for landing on the face and peeling the face as I was taught.


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## punisher73

Ummmm.............

SKK Combo 4, first the person is not going to fall down from a kick to the solar plexus.  BUT, let's say you hit the liver with the kick or do knock the wind out of him and the attacker goes down.  That's it!  Self-Defense is over...get away!  If you continue the rest of the attack, you will go to prison for a very long time for the damage you are causing to a helpless person (at this point).

Remember, the attack is against a punch, no weapon involved.  You are good with the initial part of defending against the punch and offline to respond.  The rest of it is just nonsense that will get you into big legal trouble.  You jump and stomp on the attacker's face/head and then poke out both eyes and then kick his head/face again as you leave.  

There isn't a scenario I can think of right off that the technique as shown is a tactically logical or legal response.  Let's put in a knife into the mix for the sake of discussion so a lethal response would be legally justified in your response.  You kick the attacker and then there is NO attempt to control the attacker's knife hand so the response doesn't make sense tactically.  If you say that the attacker would "drop the knife" because of the kick, then you are not legally justified in the rest of the response because there is no threat of deadly force.

Let's assume it is a multiple attacker scenario that you are in fear of your life and chose a lethal response.  The technique STILL does not make sense because you are taking WAY too much time on one attacker to disable them that you wouldn't be able to pull of that response because you would be pummeled by the rest.

If this was actually taught as a technique, the ONLY thing that keeps running through my mind is that it was a throwback to the "old days" when people did purposely hurt an attacker (think curb stomping) because he pissed you off and it has nothing to do with actual self-defense.

IMO, it looks like Combo 4 should have stopped after the kick and Prof. Cerio (or whoever added it) took a page out of Ed Parker's book on "extensions" and added in the rest of the moves on a downed attacker.


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## JKDJade

punisher73 said:


> Ummmm.............
> 
> SKK Combo 4, first the person is not going to fall down from a kick to the solar plexus.  BUT, let's say you hit the liver with the kick or do knock the wind out of him and the attacker goes down.  That's it!  Self-Defense is over...get away!  If you continue the rest of the attack, you will go to prison for a very long time for the damage you are causing to a helpless person (at this point).
> 
> Remember, the attack is against a punch, no weapon involved.  You are good with the initial part of defending against the punch and offline to respond.  The rest of it is just nonsense that will get you into big legal trouble.  You jump and stomp on the attacker's face/head and then poke out both eyes and then kick his head/face again as you leave.
> 
> There isn't a scenario I can think of right off that the technique as shown is a tactically logical or legal response.  Let's put in a knife into the mix for the sake of discussion so a lethal response would be legally justified in your response.  You kick the attacker and then there is NO attempt to control the attacker's knife hand so the response doesn't make sense tactically.  If you say that the attacker would "drop the knife" because of the kick, then you are not legally justified in the rest of the response because there is no threat of deadly force.
> 
> Let's assume it is a multiple attacker scenario that you are in fear of your life and chose a lethal response.  The technique STILL does not make sense because you are taking WAY too much time on one attacker to disable them that you wouldn't be able to pull of that response because you would be pummeled by the rest.
> 
> If this was actually taught as a technique, the ONLY thing that keeps running through my mind is that it was a throwback to the "old days" when people did purposely hurt an attacker (think curb stomping) because he pissed you off and it has nothing to do with actual self-defense.
> 
> IMO, it looks like Combo 4 should have stopped after the kick and Prof. Cerio (or whoever added it) took a page out of Ed Parker's book on "extensions" and added in the rest of the moves on a downed attacker.



 Agreed...


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## marlon

I like the back “down” concept instead of back up. Prof. teaches the initial block as almost a duck / slip with a small step back in-order to drop your height. Now this position allows better control of the attacker because the cw circular motion manipulates the shoulders not only preventing rotation for a second punch but also turns the attacker into the kick and not to mention opens the base of the skull as a target. Agree the rest is impractical. I use the dragon stance to teach catching ones wieght and balance after good follow through with the kick. And the ability / skill of generating power with speed to a second kick


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

punisher73 said:


> Ummmm.............
> 
> SKK Combo 4, first the person is not going to fall down from a kick to the solar plexus.  BUT, let's say you hit the liver with the kick or do knock the wind out of him and the attacker goes down.  That's it!  Self-Defense is over...get away!  If you continue the rest of the attack, you will go to prison for a very long time for the damage you are causing to a helpless person (at this point).
> 
> Remember, the attack is against a punch, no weapon involved.  You are good with the initial part of defending against the punch and offline to respond.  The rest of it is just nonsense that will get you into big legal trouble.  You jump and stomp on the attacker's face/head and then poke out both eyes and then kick his head/face again as you leave.
> 
> There isn't a scenario I can think of right off that the technique as shown is a tactically logical or legal response.  Let's put in a knife into the mix for the sake of discussion so a lethal response would be legally justified in your response.  You kick the attacker and then there is NO attempt to control the attacker's knife hand so the response doesn't make sense tactically.  If you say that the attacker would "drop the knife" because of the kick, then you are not legally justified in the rest of the response because there is no threat of deadly force.
> 
> Let's assume it is a multiple attacker scenario that you are in fear of your life and chose a lethal response.  The technique STILL does not make sense because you are taking WAY too much time on one attacker to disable them that you wouldn't be able to pull of that response because you would be pummeled by the rest.
> 
> If this was actually taught as a technique, the ONLY thing that keeps running through my mind is that it was a throwback to the "old days" when people did purposely hurt an attacker (think curb stomping) because he pissed you off and it has nothing to do with actual self-defense.
> 
> IMO, it looks like Combo 4 should have stopped after the kick and Prof. Cerio (or whoever added it) took a page out of Ed Parker's book on "extensions" and added in the rest of the moves on a downed attacker.


Two responses to this. The first is that I learned (and taught) the roundhouse kick from a couple different dojos as one to the face, and teaching it to the ribs/heart/liver/whatever was just to work your way up to the face. The second is that the purpose is to do something lethal in a multiple  attacker scenario...but that the tech is an opportunity to practice it, when in reality you would only do one move. So rather than having multiple techniques to get you in a position where you practice two different eye pokes, and two different kicks/stomps, you just learn one technique with an ending where you can practice all of them.


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