# "Flow Fighting" with Scott Sonnon



## Phil Elmore

Recently I had the opportunity to review Scott Sonnon's Flow Fighting videotape.  This is a very good conceptual tape that ought to be required viewing for all martial artists, in my opinion.


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## Rich_

Glad you enjoyed the tape, Phil... which bits particularly struck you? I only ask as an interested ROSS instructor, it's sometimes surprising what untrained people (or those trained in other arts) find new or different - almost every person I've trained with has picked out different skills or approaches as new or surprising.


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## Phil Elmore

The review is pretty detailed, but off the top of my head I'd say Scott's discussion of confidence was particularly good, as well as his comparison of Sport and Combat systems and what they can offer one another.


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## Kirk

Do you ever discuss martial arts, or just do what you're doing 
here, jump from site to site doing your own little commercials?
Hey, it beats REAL advertising and marketing, huh?


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## Phil Elmore

Since I don't make any money from doing reviews of martial arts materials and products, I fail to see what "commercial" I am doing in posting links to articles or columns I've written.  I admit that I don't have as much time to respond to other topics as I might like at this particular forum, but I'm quite active at e-budo.com, among others.

I happen to see sharing this kind of material as a substantive way of contributing.  I could post the text of the review, rather than a link to it, but that would mean that if I discover typos or have to make modifcations later, I'd have to change each and every post.  This way is more efficient.

Do you have something other than empty hostility to offer?  I can't recall as I've done anything to violate the rules or offend anyone.


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## RMAX.tv

Dear Kirk,
This morning Phil sent me his review of my resource, Flow-Fighting: Mental Toughness Training for Combat Sports and Martial Art.
Being the senior most RMA-ROSS trainer in North America, and a former USA National Sambo Coach and Distinguised Master of Sport in Sambo (international champion), people interested in Russian Martial Art and Russian Physical Culture often hold interest in my resources and programs.  Therefore, I provided Phil with several links regarding various interest groups of Russian Martial Art and Russian Physical Culture where his review would probably be of more interest.  This link obviously being one of them.
If you blame him for coming here for his first post to comment on Flow-Fighting, then blame me, not Phil.  Phil has proven himself over the years online to be a stand-up man that debunks martial mythology and makes no money from what he does, and it's quite rude and unprofessional to imply that he does so for commercial gain.
Regards,
Coach Sonnon
RMAX.tv Athletic Performance Enhancement Solutions


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## Kirk

This is NOT his first post.  He's often times posted the same exact
commercial in *several* forums on this site.  

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3202

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3224

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=43339#post43339



> I admit that I don't have as much time to respond to other topics as I might like at this particular forum, but I'm quite active at e-budo.com, among others.



So you limit your activity on this board to pretty much the 
commercials?


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## Phil Elmore

It is not a "commercial."  

For it to be a "commercial" I would have to reap some sort of financial gain from promoting these works, which I do not.  (The exception would be the e-books I reviewed for Alan Graham and Keith Pascal, which, when sold through clickbank, generate a tiny commission.  At the rate I'm going from my "commercial" gains, I will be able to purchase a new car very soon -- provided it uses AA batteries.)

Among the many activities in which I engage where the martial arts are concerned is the consumption of instructional videotapes and other products.  When I do so I often evaluate the item for my web page, a repository for a variety of my writing on different subjects.  I enjoy participating at web forums, and posting links to the columns and articles I write is one way in which I can participate at more of them.  I consider it a substantive contribution to the discussion.

Many people involved in the martial arts find benefit in being told whether or not a given product is worth their money.  Others engage in my in discussion on the topics.  But generally they see the value in what I'm trying to do.

I'm sorry if you don't, Kirk.  I'm also sorry if the manner in which I choose to contribute here does not somehow meet your standards of "really" discussing the martial arts.  Perhaps if you read any of the reviews on my web page you'd see that I try to bring genuine insight into evaluations of the material reviewed.


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## Rich_

Having read the linked articles, I honestly don't see where your problem stems from, Kirk. He's not doing it for profit, he's just reviewing martial arts books and putting his personal opinions up on his personal website. 

This seems like a valid and useful martial arts resource; since he was reviewing a ROSS-related product it seems pertinent to the RMA discussion board. Which, let's face it, isn't creaking under the strain of too many postings...  OK, it's more 'information' than 'discussion', but surely there's room for both on this site?


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## Phil Elmore

Thanks, Rich.

If Kirk had said to me, "Hey, buddy, how's about you give us your input on the topics here in addition to posting these articles," I would completely understand, and I'm more than happy to make the effort -- as I genuinely enjoy discussing the martial arts.  But I have no sinister "commercial" motive.  Rarely is the sharing of such articles ever met with such hostility as Kirk has displayed;  usually the forum participants and administration take them in the spirit in which they are offered.


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## Kirk

Just because there's no seeable direct profit, doesn't mean you
don't have a personal agenda.  Are you trying to tell me that you 
decided to make your web page, without regard to ANYONE 
reading it?  Would you still produce the articles if you had no hits?
Sounds a bit far fetched if you ask me.  

MANY of your posts were deleted for the fact that you put the
same exact thing all over this board.  Why would you do that, if
you were merely trying to engage in a discussion about martial
arts?  Many were moved to other forums on this board because
they didn't apply to the forum in which you posted.  Why would
you do such a thing, if you had nothing to gain?  An example
would be posting a review of an Arnis video in the TKD forum.
If your intent was to discuss the Arnis video, why post in TKD??
I noticed you "coincidentally" just posted for the first time in other 
areas that were NOT commercials.  Why is this?  You never felt 
moved to do so in the past.   You wouldn't have to reap an 
immediate financial gain, in order for it to be a commercial.  When 
a politician advertises that he wants your vote, is he selling a 
product with a given price tag?  Is he looking for "commercial" 
gain?   Commercials don't always sell a product or service, do 
they?   Maybe fame is what you seek.  Maybe you're looking for 
an ego boost?  A fan club?  A large following on your website, so 
that you can sell advertising?  

You stated that you're a frequent contributor elsewhere, yet not
here.  Why post here at all then?  You just come in, post your little
link to your site and leave, and do it in the name of having a 
discussion about martial arts.  Hmmm ... I'm having trouble 
swallowing that one, sorry.  Is the other forum better than this 
one?  What is it that you find wrong with this board, what is it
that you don't like?  Is it the members?  It certainly can't be me,
since this is the first time I've replied to any of your commer....er
... posts since you became a member here WAAAAAAY back in 
march  (that's 7 months ago to you and me!  7 Months, 25 total
posts, for a whopping average of 0.13 posts per day).  How 
many of those posts were saying "go check out my web site, 
because I reviewed such and such commercial product" ??? 
 
Sorry .. but I think you have an agenda.


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## Jay Bell

My ghod...get over it


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## Phil Elmore

> Just because there's no seeable direct profit, doesn't mean you don't have a personal agenda. Are you trying to tell me that you  decided to make your web page, without regard to ANYONE  reading it? Would you still produce the articles if you had no hits? Sounds a bit far fetched if you ask me.



Obviously I'd like people to view my page.  When you post your opinion, do you do so hoping no one will read it?  But how is this some sinister agenda?  I don't derive anything from visits to my page except the personal satisfaction of having my opinion read.  If hoping to have others agree with me and know what I think is a sinister agenda, then so be it.



> MANY of your posts were deleted for the fact that you put the same exact thing all over this board. Why would you do that, if you were merely trying to engage in a discussion about martial arts? Many were moved to other forums on this board because they didn't apply to the forum in which you posted. Why would you do such a thing, if you had nothing to gain?



Oh?  "Many" were deleted?  What posts were those, exactly?  And how were they "all over" the forums?  I don't recall ever posting a link to the same review twice in the same forum;  the exception would be this first Sonnon review, which I posted in the general forum.



> An example would be posting a review of an Arnis video in the TKD forum. If your intent was to discuss the Arnis video, why post in TKD??



I don't recall doing a review of an Arnis video, nor do I see one anywhere on my site.  I try to put reviews in the forums where they are most applicable, though I am not perfect and sometimes miss the best forum for the application.

If posting links to my articles was a problem, why was nothing said to me?  If my posts were being deleted and moved in the wholesale fashion you describe, why was I not warned or otherwise scolded?



> I noticed you "coincidentally" just posted for the first time in other areas that were NOT commercials. Why is this? You never felt moved to do so in the past. You wouldn't have to reap an immediate financial gain, in order for it to be a commercial.



Did you just wake up this morning feeling unpleasant?  I made the effor to participate in other discussion *specifically because* you have this gigantic problem with how I have chosen to participate so far.  What do you want from me, Kirk?  
Is this the approach you usually take to moderating a forum?



> When a politician advertises that he wants your vote, is he selling a product with a given price tag? Is he looking for "commercial" gain? Commercials don't always sell a product or service, do  they? Maybe fame is what you seek. Maybe you're looking for an ego boost? A fan club? A large following on your website, so that you can sell advertising?



Is that it, then?   You think I'm seeking "fame," and the venue through which I'll do this is MartialTalk?  Okay, you got me.  I'm amassing a legion of adoring fans so that I can sell more than a single PhilElmore.com "Beware Angry Ninja" coffee mug in the next CafePress sales period.



> You stated that you're a frequent contributor elsewhere, yet not here. Why post here at all then?



Because I like to participate in as many discussions as possible, yet have a finite amount of discussion time available to me.  Is that so hard to understand?

Or is it that you're just personally offended that I haven't given a forum that you moderate the attention you believe it deserves?



> You just come in, post your little link to your site and leave, and do it in the name of having a discussion about martial arts. Hmmm ... I'm having trouble  swallowing that one, sorry. Is the other forum better than this one? What is it that you find wrong with this board, what is it that you don't like? Is it the members? It certainly can't be me, since this is the first time I've replied to any of your commer....er ... posts since you became a member here WAAAAAAY back in  march (that's 7 months ago to you and me! 7 Months, 25 total posts, for a whopping average of 0.13 posts per day).



That must be it, then.  You're upset that I've not afforded MartialTalk the attention you believe it deserves.  Fine.   



> How many of those posts were saying "go check out my web site, because I reviewed such and such commercial product" ???



You really are having a hard time grasping this concept, aren't you?



> Sorry .. but I think you have an agenda.



Yep, you caught me.

Since nothing I do or say seems to change your opinion, Kirk, I won't waste your time -- or mine -- by spreading my insidious "commercials" here.

I will, however, happily add MartialTalk to my list of forums that are best avoided, and never again trouble you with my agendized opinions.


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> Obviously I'd like people to view my page. When you post your opinion, do you do so hoping no one will read it? But how is this some sinister agenda? I don't derive anything from visits to my page except the personal satisfaction of having my opinion read. If hoping to have others agree with me and know what I think is a sinister agenda, then so be it.
> *



I never said sinister, I said agenda.  Thanks for proving me right.
I post here, because I hope people will read it *here.*  Not
somewhere else.  



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> Oh? "Many" were deleted? What posts were those, exactly? And how were they "all over" the forums? I don't recall ever posting a link to the same review twice in the same forum; the exception would be this first Sonnon review, which I posted in the general forum.
> *



Make whatever false claim you want buddy boy, but you and I
both know the truth now don't we?  If you're so adamant abuot
proving me wrong, how about some links to previous times where
your post was *not * a link to your page.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> I don't recall doing a review of an Arnis video, nor do I see one anywhere on my site*



Do you understand the meaning of the word example?  Here,
let me help you out.  "a parallel or closely similar case especially 
when serving as a precedent or model."  Surprising that a writer doesn't know this.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> I try to put reviews in the forums where they are most applicable,
> though I am not perfect and sometimes miss the best forum for
> the application.
> *



Why put them in MANY forums?  "Sometimes" miss the best 
forum?  C'mon dude, I was born at night, but not last night.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> If posting links to my articles was a problem, why was nothing said to me? If my posts were being deleted and moved in the wholesale fashion you describe, why was I not warned or otherwise scolded?
> *



Show me where in my post I said it wasn't allowed.  I'm merely
exercising my own free will in posting MY opinion of your use of
this board.  Funny ... you want to freely post links to your site, 
yet limit my posting ON THIS BOARD, my opinion.  Now that's
funny! 



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> Did you just wake up this morning feeling unpleasant? I made the effor to participate in other discussion specifically because you have this gigantic problem with how I have chosen to participate so far. What do you want from me, Kirk?
> Is this the approach you usually take to moderating a forum?
> *



Again, you want to freely post your opinion, yet inhibit mine?
Did I say I was acting as a moderator in this capacity?  Trust me
if I was acting as a mod here, we wouldn't be having this 
conversation. I would've just trashed your post altogether.  I
never said there was a rule violation, and there still isn't.  By me
or you.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> Is that it, then? You think I'm seeking "fame," and the venue through which I'll do this is MartialTalk? Okay, you got me. I'm amassing a legion of adoring fans so that I can sell more than a single PhilElmore.com "Beware Angry Ninja" coffee mug in the next CafePress sales period.
> *



Yeah, okay, that's the only way people have made money on the
net  .



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> Because I like to participate in as many discussions as possible, yet have a finite amount of discussion time available to me. Is that so hard to understand?
> *



Yes it is ... because you don't PARTICIPATE, you just post links
to your site.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> Or is it that you're just personally offended that I haven't given a forum that you moderate the attention you believe it deserves?
> *



The forums here get plenty of attention without your commercials.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> That must be it, then. You're upset that I've not afforded MartialTalk the attention you believe it deserves. Fine.
> *


The only thing you've given martial talk are your commercials.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> Since nothing I do or say seems to change your opinion, Kirk, I won't waste your time -- or mine -- by spreading my insidious "commercials" here.
> *



Thanks, I appreciate it.  You didn't do anything to sway or change
my opinion, you just got defensive.  



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> I will, however, happily add MartialTalk to my list of forums that are best avoided, and never again trouble you with my agendized opinions.
> *



Ah, so you expect that your website will be so popular that you
can sway public opinion in a dramatic way.  Sounds like a power
trip to me.  Also sounds like an agenda.  *patting self on back*

Adding MT to your list .. how many other forums got tired of your
commercials?  Kewl that you'll link here, because people will come
here, see it for the greatness that it is, and stick around.  Your
opinion won't change this board, nor become the opinion of your
fans.  They'll come to check out why it's "best avoided" and like
what they see.  Ya can't beat the product m'man!



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> I won't be returning to MartialTalk. If you post in response to something I've written, I'm afraid won't see you're replies.
> *



Okay, going by the NUMEROUS replies to your other commercials,
I'm afraid you wouldn't see their replies either way.  And just a
note ... I'm sure you can have your membership deleted if you'll
PM an administrator here.


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## tmanifold

Seriously Kirk, Lay off the coffee man. 
Phil is a writer and works as such. His reviews normally get quite favorable responses at the forums he posts at. Did you even read the review? I didn't see you attack Coach Sonnon, who is actually in the business of making money off his products. In fact, he sent the video to Phil to review and then gave him a list of places to post links. All for his (Scott Sonnon's) finanial gain. What an evil man.  How many people have posted links to things they have written or have hosted on there site.

I am active at many of the forums that Phil is and I can safely say (as can many moderators) that Phil is the Anti-troll. Had you given him a chance he may have answer questions about his review. He has at many other forums. Unfortunatly you just chased away a valuble resource for MartialTalk.

Tony


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## arnisador

I have appreciated Mr. Elmore's reviews and hope that he will continue to post them here.


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## Bob Hubbard

I want to address a few points in here.  Sorry if this is going to ramble a bit..I'm trying to hit points as I read thru this mess...

"Comercials" - Sorry, don't see em that way... I checked Phils website out a while back, its informative, but not what I would consider 'comercial'.  

"Driving traffic to his site" - Teaser posts are a common means of doing so...I do it myself, so see nothing wrong with em.

"Amount of content in Phils posts" - While I agree with Phils comments about not posting the full text (I always find typos in my writings), a -bit- more info might help avoid the 'commercial' appearence, as well as give the reader a bit more to go on when deciding to follow the link...maybe a small paragraph or so about the subject.  Always good for the newbies (like me) who often have no clue on whats being discussed / mentioned.

"opinions" - we all have them.

"Rules violations" - I see none.

"moved/deleted posts" - I think (may be wrong) when Phil first posted we had to remove a few and/or move a few postings. Was no big deal. (I may be thinking of someone else, so appologies if this is the case)

""Beware Angry Ninja" coffee mug" - I'll take 1 if the price is right. 

"proper locations of review posts" - main topic (Ie kenpo if a kenpo review) and the "Library"...with primary discussion in the "Library" prefered (so we make that forum a RnD resource)

"Kirk acting as a mod in this discussion" - He wasn't...just his personal opinion.

"Phil being welcome on MartialTalk" - He is. He hasn't violated any of our posted rules, and his info is of interest to our members.  Personally, I wish he posted a bit more info with the links to his reviews, but thats my opinion, and if we had a problem with his postings I or one of the other administrators would have addressed it directly a while back. 

"who am I" - The owner of MartialTalk. (in case anyone didn't know)


When Phil first started posting his review-links here, we had a brief discussion about them...we decided that they were ok.  Also, I saw them on other forums and monitored their reactions too.  I find his postings to be ok. 

Phil, please reconsider on posting here. You have my personal apology that this flame was allowed to go this far without action on my part to address it sooner.


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## GouRonin

Please get off your lazy @ss and review the _'Shock-Ability"_ & the _"Fisticuffs"_ video series because I am interested in them and want some background on them in case I decide to spend the money on them. I'm very picky about what videos I buy from the USA due to currency exchange and I hate getting ripped off with cr@ppy videos when I pay 50% more for them. So quit arguing and get your butt in gear ya jerk! I have a life I'm trying to train for here!
 

Note: Anyone who doesn't understand sarcasm and humour please do not respond to this post.


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## RMAX.tv

Mr. Hubbard, 

Very professional.  Thank you for your intervention.




GouRonin,

Being the man who created Shock-Ability Biomechanical Impact Training and FISTICUFFS Peak Performance Pugilism, I can throw in a few comments for you.

If I am not mistaken you're currently training directly with Vladimir Vasiliev.  If so, you won't need Shock-Ability.  I don't believe you'll be in need of the first two portions of Fisticuffs.  Vlad covers some of this training in his own way through his system.  We definitely coach differently.

However, the last installment, Flow-State Performance-Spiral, is uniquely my creation based upon my experiences in training and coaching the US Sambo Team and other fighters and sports.  My sport psychology methods are used by many different instructors, coaches and sport psychologists.  The first two installments of Fisticuffs may give you more of a visual frame of reference for the performance enhancement techniques, but since you have someone like Vlad for a coach, I'm sure your training is substantial and comprehensive enough to use as a backdrop to process the methods.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me directly at sonnon@RMAX.tv or on my forum at www.RMAX.tv/discus/

Coach Sonnon
Athletic Performance Enhancement Solutons
www.RMAX.tv


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## GouRonin

The series are what I was interested in as I was already doing something similar with Vlad. My interest was in the similarities between the two, both being RMA.

For the creator of a series to evaluate what a person needs and tell them outright rather than try to sell them everything makes me rather impressed with your honesty in this matter. I thank you very much.


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## Phil Elmore

Scott's cool like that. 

Thanks, Bob (and everyone else), for being so nice about this.


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## GouRonin

Sometimes it's easier to just scrap on the net than to discuss and look for solutions. Sure it's fun to fight but solutions mean less work and I'm pretty d@mn lazy.


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