# Hwa rang Do - Kook Sul Won connection?



## Bob D.

I know that Hwa Rang Do and Kook Sul Won are very similar and that the founders are from the Choi, Young-Sool lineage. My question is where Lee, Joo Bang was a student of Kim Moo-Hong, who was Suh, In hyuk's teacher?
What other art besides Hapkido did he study?


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## jkn75

The Kuk Sool Website just got revamped. The history is here. Some stuff has been added from the history that is in the textbook, especially the Thumb technique. 

Grandmaster Suh doesn't talk about all of his teachers for whatever reasons. A couple are mentioned but finding out about all the masters that he trained with really would be interesting.  Hopefully, all the history comes out. It seems a lot of the newer Korean arts were developed from people who trained together and it's hard to know the whole story. Hopefully, Dr. He Young Kimm's book sheds some light on modern Korean MA history.

Some of the videos I've seen show some differences in the arts though. The advanced forms are very different. Kuk Sool's advanced forms are more animal style based intead of advanced kicks based. The techniques are similar though but that can be said about a lot of the arts based on the aikijujitsu lineage. However, I haven't seen a lot of the Hwa Rang Do forms or techniques so I'm basing that on the above videos and some other videos I've seen.


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## Bob D.

It's funny...nobody seems to know these old monks that Lee joo bang and Suh In Hyuk trained under. There are no records or independant knowledge of Suam Dosa and I imagine the same is true of the others as well. Is it hypocricy that in Arts that demand strict loyalty and adherance to "tradition", the "founders" seem to have disassociated themselves from their teachers and assembled new arts?


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## glad2bhere

Dear Bob: 

I remember that Carsten, a strong advocate for the HwaRang organization had been able to at least identify the monastery at which Suahm Dosa resided but there is very little about the actual content of what he taught beyond what GM Lee has shared. I found sound, thought-provoking material on Bob Duggans' website regarding the early years of HwaRang in the US and have no reason to think that it is any more or less accurate than anything else anyone is espousing. 

BTW: You may find this interesting as a side light.  Another student of Moo Woong Kim teaches up in the San Francisco-Redwood area somewhere. Interestingly enough he identifies the material as "HwaRang Kwan Hapkido". Coincidence? Who knows? I just stop by here for the brainfood.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## pknox

The lineage from the Hwa Rang Do perspective can be found here...

http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/history/map.htm


To summarize, according to the chart, the "Kuk Sool Hwe" was an organization that was founded by the Lees in Seoul, and existed from 1962-1966.  Listed as a suborganization is "Kuk Sool Won Hapkido" which is listed as a member of the Kuk Sool Hwe from 1962-1964, and has In Hyuk Suh listed from 1965-1974, located in Pusan.  The chart then breaks off "Kuksoolwon" as a separate organization arising out of "Kuk Sool Won Hapkido", attributing it to In Hyuk Suh and giving the date as 1974, and the location as "USA."  If you work your way up the chart you'll see common source arts, but the aforementioned info also shows that there was a common organizational structure between the two founders at one time as well.


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## Bob D.

> I remember that Carsten, a strong advocate for the HwaRang organization had been able to at least identify the monastery at which Suahm Dosa resided



Yes, but  Lee Joo Bang burned it down after Suam Dosa died. I have yet to hear of anyone else that can confirm the story. Maybe there was  this monk but what did he actually teach? Granted, HRD is different enough from KSW and Hapkido that I beleive JBL studied some form of Chin Na or Pa qua (spelling?).  Alot of the early joint lock sets are almost identical to KSW as well as some of the forms. The style is different, but the order and type is the same.
But, if HRD was a seperate art, what was it? Ancient fighting arts incompassed mostly weapons. Why does JBL appear to not know how to hold a Korean Bow? (Magazine cover from the 80's)
There are some great Knife, sword, staff, rope, and stick forms-techniques in HRD. Where did they come from? 
The HRD kicking is unique and vast. 15+ years ago I did not find any other arts teaching the same form of kicks that are HRD. Now more and more arts seem to have picked up alot of it.
In fact I was told JBL's kicking is different from his brother Lee Joo Sang. JBL's style is more like TKD and alot of Hapkidoists and JSL is more power oriented with a fairly unique style. There are so many questions I am interested in finding the truth about.
 This is all from a purely scholarly interest.      Bob


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## Bob D.

PKNOX,
That info is originally from the WHRD web site. All of which is very suspect. I can't even read a word on that site anymore...it has "CULT" written all over it. A shame really.    Bob


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## glad2bhere

Dear Bob: 

"......Yes, but Lee Joo Bang burned it down after Suam Dosa died. I have yet to hear of anyone else that can confirm the story...." 

Sorry about the confusion. What I understand is that Lee burned down the hut or house that the monk had elected to live in by himself. He still had an affiliation with a monastery and perhaps knowing more about the traditions of that monastery might provide greater insight. Then again, maybe not. A friend of mine had the honor of participating in a tour of Korea in the company of Dr. He-young Kimm which included visiting a Son monastery. They were given a demonstration of the martial traditions practiced at this monastery. My understanding is that the material demonstrated was closer to Chinese Chi Kung than a dynamic MA. However, Jere did mention that there were monks at the monastery who, while not involving themselves in the demo executed highly sophisticated MA technique during the subsequent study period. 

Personally, my issue with Lee was his original assertion that he had somehow inherited the 59th GM-ship of the HwaRang lineage, later modifying this to identify himself as having learned "Um-Yang Bup" (essentially "hard-soft method). To my mind this would be tantamont to someone asserting they had inherited some exotic art such as TSKSR and then later "clarifying" by saying "well, I studied Japanese sword". Big Difference.  

As far as getting someone to catalog all of their learning experiences I wouldn't hold my breath. There may be a few variables at work here. 

1.) You might find out that the "survey" of "many" teachers was little more than meeting and greeting a number of the regional personalities and checking to see what they were doing. Also in the Korean mind, spending time talking with a teachers' students over a couple of beers can easily be represented as talking with the teachers themselves. 

2.) In Korean culture (much like in the States) Image is everything. Its not so much what you have done but what you have represented to others and been accepted as that counts. In this way I could train under an obscure member of a particular lineage and feel absolutely comfortable saying that I trained under the head of the tradition itself. 

3.) Don't discount the Human side of the story. Put the personalities and their respective auras to oneside. Consider that at one time you had a group of young turks wanting to build a MA  organization to rival the income and prestige of the growing TKD/TSD folks at the time. How many times have we seen this same story played out here in the States. A bunch of young turks want to start the "next big thing" and then have a falling out when they can't agree on who will sit at the top of the stack. 

4.) Don't discount the Chinese influence. Its easy to draw on resources which are rich in information but for a number of reasons won't step forward and make themselves known. Lee, Seo and maybe many others had experience with other traditions and at least Seo owns that one of his teachers was of a Chinese tradition. There are at least four major styles of Chinese Boxing in Korea and probably a lot more smaller teachers. but you don't hear a lot about them. Doesn't mean they didn't/don't exist. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Bob D.

Bruce, It would be nice if JBL and IHS just admitted they learned from Kim moo-hong if that's the case. I think JBL did state that in a 90's Blackbelt magazine interview, but you can't find any mention of it on his web site.
There is no doubt in my mind that JBL knows some unique stuff and was one of the most gifted martial artists of his time. I have spoken to many senior martial artist over the years who say his abilities are vast and he was very powerful. Many say he performed with lots of "aki" in his technique though he never taught it. He certianly developed a dynamic MA with vast sets of seemingly endless variations of joint locks. 
It's unfortunate though that ego, money and his eldist son have spoiled a good thing.        Bob


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## pknox

> _Originally posted by Bob D. _
> *PKNOX,
> That info is originally from the WHRD web site. All of which is very suspect. I can't even read a word on that site anymore...it has "CULT" written all over it. A shame really.    Bob *



That may be, but I figured as the KSW info was already posted, it would be fair to put up the info according to HWD as well, and let people make up their own minds.


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## glad2bhere

".....It's unfortunate though that ego, money and his eldist son have spoiled a good thing. Bob...." 

No argument there. I have often wished that it might be possible to get in contact with more people who trained under Kim. His lineage must be one of the best kep secrets in the MA world. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## jkn75

It would be fantastic if all the Korean masters had histories as complete as Dr. He Young Kimm. I would like to know when everyone's path crossed in Korea. But as time goes by In Hyuk Suh is revealing more and more details about himself and may at some time release a complete autobiography, however I haven't heard any rumors that this will happen.

Although there is no confirmation, there have been two events that may reveal which monks IHS trained under. On the Korea trip in 2002, the Kuk Sool group stayed at the Bak Dahm Sa Temple. They were allowed to stay the night and the group was taught some meditation techniques. The second event was during the 2003 World Tournament. The Great Monk Cho, Oh Hyun visited the KSW Ranch, spoke at the Master's Demo and again at the Ranch the next day. I assume there would be some connection for the Great Monk to come to the US and allow outsiders into the temple for a night. 

It's thin but at least it's something .


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## Hwarang

Bob D. :
>> I know that Hwa Rang Do and Kook Sul Won are very similar and that the founders are from the Choi, Young-Sool lineage. My question is where Lee, Joo Bang was a student of Kim Moo-Hong <<

Joo Bang Lee was not a student of GM Kim, what is your source of this?

About the HRD - KSW similarity, this goes back to the Korean Martial Arts Association (Kuk Sool Hwe), but it does not take much training in any style to see that the "similar" techniques are really very different in the two styles.

I've trained with KWS students and masters, but compare HRD and KSW yourself and make up your own mind. If you don't live near both Dojangs there are now videos of both styles available and more and more stuff gets online. I think it's easy to see who did what, but you should really make up your own mind if you're interested.

jkn75:
>>Some of the videos I've seen show some differences in the arts though.<<

Sure, there are major, major differences. It is, and were different styles.
What is best KSW or HRD? Whichever style you like, but they are certainly different.

Bob D:
>> Is it hypocricy that in Arts that demand strict loyalty and adherance to 
"tradition", the "founders" seem to have disassociated themselves from their teachers and assembled new arts? <<

I don't understand what you're saying? GM Lee has ALWAYS said he had two teachers, the monk Suam Dosa and Choi Yong Sul who taught him Yawara. And of course neither of them taught "styles", they taught different techniques for different people - no system.

glad2bhere:
>> I remember that Carsten, a strong advocate for the HwaRang organization <<

I post on history, not on politics. Could you show me a post where I advokate WHRDA? Anyone are free to tell me if what I post on Hwarang Do history is wrong, but don't simply say that I advocate the Hwarang orgainsation. I'm not a spokesperson for WHRDA, but I do know a lot about the history.

Bob D:
>> Granted, HRD is different enough from KSW and Hapkido that I beleive JBL studied some form of Chin Na or Pa qua (spelling?) << 

Hey good, we agree on something, HRD is certainly different from KSW and HKD. 
But what is your reason to believe he studied Chin Na or Paqua?

>> Alot of the early joint lock sets are almost identical to KSW as well as some of the forms. The style is different, but the order and type is the same. <<

The Kuk Sool Hwe - text and photos on Hwarangdo.com. It's actually not 'a lot of sets' but 'some sets', for instance "defense against wrist grab", (20 techniques on the same side and 8 cross grab) and "basic attacking joint locks" (15 techniques, first is attack to the wrist and the last a throw). And again. the way each style does the techniques in the sets are certainly not identical.

>> In fact I was told JBL's kicking is different from his brother Lee Joo Sang. <<

Of course it's a basic concept in Hwarang Do that there is no "standard" way we do techniques. For instance some people are predominant liniar and some more circular, some use more power, some more speed. We think this is a good thing, so there is absolutely nothing strange about two HRD grandmasters kicking "differently". Already around black belt level you'll see big differences in how different black belts move.

>> JBL's style is more like TKD <<
Naturally we all agree that originally Karate only did a few low snapping kicks, which is nothing like JBL kicks?

>> That info is originally from the WHRD web site. All of which is very suspect. I can't even read a word on that site anymore...it has "CULT" written all over it. A shame really. <<

This is a discussion I'm looking forward to! I'll be back full time on January 14th, but until then feel free to explain how Hwarang is *really* a business cult. Do remember to include how much money people in Hwarang Do are required to pay to WHRDA!! 

Carsten
(back in a month)


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## glad2bhere

Dear Carsten: 

I have to admit that you have done a pretty good job of telling everyone what HwaRang tradition is NOT. You have also done a pretty good job of telling us what you are NOT doing. Thats fair. But I think its time for you to come up front and tell us what it is that you ARE advocating. 

I have been to the sites you have mentioned and read the material that you have recommended but I don't see anything in the way of facts that connects what is being taught today with whatever traditions you think you know about back in the Three Kingdoms Period. All I can discern is that one particular personality is invoking the spirit of the HwaRang warriors and wants people to take his truthes on faith for no reason other than its what he identifies as truth. Now, nobody is denying the existence of the HwaRang warriors in Korean history and I don't think anyone is denying the existence of Joo Bang Lee. What I would like to see is documented evidence that the two are connected. If you have some other agenda then I suppose this would be a good time to share that. In the meantime, if you are half as thorough in your research as you would like the readership to believe, now would be a good time to start sharing your resources and citations. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Bob D.

> Joo Bang Lee was not a student of GM Kim, what is your source of this?


It's common knowledge he was. Infact he says so in a 90's Blackbelt article. If your "research" had gone beyond the WHRD web site, you would know that.:shrug: 


> About the HRD - KSW similarity, this goes back to the Korean Martial Arts Association (Kuk Sool Hwe), but it does not take much training in any style to see that the "similar" techniques are really very different in the two styles.


Not just similar, THE SAME. I've seen vidio footage of Suh doing HRD yellow belt form exactly as I learned it. I've been told son muk sool is the exact same 28 techniques in the same order. There are others. It makes sense since JBL and IHS were friends and training together at one time 


> I don't understand what you're saying? GM Lee has ALWAYS said he had two teachers, the monk Suam Dosa and Choi Yong Sul who taught him Yawara. And of course neither of them taught "styles", they taught different techniques for different people - no system


If you can't understand what I'm saying then I can't help you.






> This is a discussion I'm looking forward to! I'll be back full time on January 14th, but until then feel free to explain how Hwarang is *really* a business cult. Do remember to include how much money people in Hwarang Do are required to pay to WHRDA!!



I don't need to explain it. Look up the word "Cultist" in a English dictionary, take a good look in the mirror. As to your last sentence, did you read your Black belt contract? Have you seen the latest? If not there is a copy of a 90's version posted on Bob Duggans web site for you to read.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Carsten: 

The source on JBL as Kim, Moo Woongs' student is related by Dr. Kimm, He-Young in his book HAPKIDO in the history chapter. Furthermore another student of Kims',  GM Dong Ki Song, likewise teaches in California and likewise identifies his style as HwaRangKwan. I can reasonably imagine that JBL and a lot of other people saw the growing success of TKD and TSD back in the 50-s and 60-s and wanted to mimic that success with a tradition of their own. It didn't work because the young turks couldn't agree on who would be the identified authority at the head of the organization.  I don't know Bob Duggan, his organization or his politics, however, his material on his website seems to make a lot more sense and is better supported with evidence than to continue to say that JBL was taught by an obscure monk and is now the 59th inheritor of a martial art tradition that goes back 58 generations--- none of which is supported with documentation. 

Now in fairness to the readership here I should remind you that on two previous occasions we have come to this point in similar discussions (most recently last year on the DOCHANG DIGEST) and on both of those previous occasions you have quite suddenly dropped out of the discussion. I think it is fair to say that the days of martial art people being "wowed" by oral traditions passed around by self-agrandizing personalities have died with the coming of the Internet. In this spirit perhaps it would be a service to either show your evidence or quit trying to market a position that is no longer tenable. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Hwarang

Good grief - I don't have time for this, but one last post this time.  

>> It's common knowledge he was. Infact he says so in a 90's Blackbelt article. If your "research" had gone beyond the WHRD web site, you would know that. <<

If that is true then you shouldn't have any problems posting the quote here, right? My research is a little more than reading the website. Actually I wrote the first draft for the history on the site (long time ago, the text is much, much more detailed today). What is your own research? Reading magazines?

>> Not just similar, THE SAME. I've seen vidio footage of Suh doing <<

No, not the same. Go visit any KSW dojang and see for yourself. The order of techniques are the same, but the way they are executed are very different.

>> I've been told son muk sool is the exact same 28 techniques in the same order. <<

If you bothered reading what I wrote above I *did* write "defense against wrist grab", (20 techniques on the same side and 8 cross grab)" - Hoshin Wan Sul in Hwarang Do and Sohn Mohk Soo in Kuk Sool Won. It goes back to the Kuk Sool Hwe - The Korean Martial Arts Association.

>> If you can't understand what I'm saying then I can't help you. <<

Of course you can help me, just explain what you mean. 

>> I don't need to explain it. <<

Sure you do, you can't just go around saying Hwarang Do is a cult if you can't explain why!

>> Look up the word "Cultist" in a English dictionary, <<

Sorry I don't have an English dictionary, only an English spell checker which I don't use nearly enough. You'll have to look it up for me.

>> take a good look in the mirror. 

Show me some examples of my cultist behavior! Is it cultish behavior to post on MartialTalk?

>> did you read your Black belt contract? Have you seen the latest? <<

Of course I read it, one of my students tested for black belt this year, so I've also seen the latest contract, why?

>> If not there is a copy of a 90's version posted on Bob Duggans web site for you to read. <<

Yes, Bob D's site is funny. Come on describe the contract to us.


glad2bhere:
>> The source on JBL as Kim, Moo Woongs' student is related by Dr. Kimm, He-Young in his book HAPKIDO in the history chapter. <<

Yes, there are quite a few errors in the chapter on Hwarang Do. I don't think GM Kimm feels the book is 100% accurate?

>> Furthermore another student of Kims', GM Dong Ki Song, likewise teaches in California and likewise identifies his style as HwaRangKwan. <<

Dong Kie Shin? Why is Hwarang Kwan relevant? On http://www.hwarangkwan.com/about.html is says GM Shin opened his school in 1965 which means he's certainly a senior master, but not one of the original masters.

>> better supported with evidence <<

What evidence do you see? 

>> Now in fairness to the readership here I should remind you that on two previous occasions we have come to this point in similar discussions (most recently last year on the DOCHANG DIGEST) and on both of those previous occasions you have quite suddenly dropped out of the discussion. <<

:lol: 

Sorry, I will neither quit my job nor stop travelling just to make you happy. 
I have said at least four times that I'm busy untill next year. Too bad.

I spent some time on the HRD><HKD post yesterday, and when I'm back I'll write the text on Suam Dosa together with "what I'm advocating", and we can take it from there. If you like.

Carsten
(still back on January 14th)


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## glad2bhere

Sorry, Carsten, but what you are doing simply won't pass for solid research. And the fact that your responses are general subjective repartee pretty much confirms that you have nothing to actually back-up what you are saying. 

Now, on the contrary allow me to present the following. 

"......glad2bhere:
>> The source on JBL as Kim, Moo Woongs' student is related by Dr. Kimm, He-Young in his book HAPKIDO in the history chapter. <<

Yes, there are quite a few errors in the chapter on Hwarang Do. I don't think GM Kimm feels the book is 100% accurate?....." 

I have spoken with Dr. Kimm about his material. We need to remember that he was connected with many of the players including In Sun Seo at the very time many of the things that were going on happened. Whatismore, he has interviewed numbers of other players and has derived consistent reports from many sources. I find his research impeccable and only people with a vested and dare I say unsubstantiated
version of history have seen fit to deride his efforts. Dr Kimm can support his versions with both personal experience, documents and collaborating testimony of others. What do YOU have?

".......Dong Kie Shin? Why is Hwarang Kwan relevant? On http://www.hwarangkwan.com/about.html is says GM Shin opened his school in 1965 which means he's certainly a senior master, but not one of the original masters......." 

His curriculum is nearly identical to the one that both he and JBL derived from their experience with GM Kim, Moo Woong. If there is no collusion among these many disparate teachers why does the curriculum continually come back to the many same techniques taught in the many same order as other Hapkido traditions. Are we to believe that everyone from Choi, to Kim, to Ji to Myung all pirated material from a young JBL? 


"..... Now in fairness to the readership here I should remind you that on two previous occasions we have come to this point in similar discussions (most recently last year on the DOCHANG DIGEST) and on both of those previous occasions you have quite suddenly dropped out of the discussion. <<

 Sorry, I will neither quit my job nor stop travelling just to make you happy. 
I have said at least four times that I'm busy untill next year. Too bad......" 

Yes, such excuses are understandable. Its not the excuse but the timing I am pointing out. As long as people take your inferences at face value and don't question too deeply things are fine and you have more than enough time. You also have the advantage of people wanting a more romantic view of the KMA to be true. I am sure that Stanley Henning ran into the same thing when he finally documented that Chinese Boxing did not start with the Shaolin Temple but had been going on long before. People wanted the Hollywood version of robbed monks kicking butt to be true and didn't want to be confused with the facts. But now people such as myself are not willing to stand in awe of fabricated and misrepresented facts. So unless you can support your statements with facts I guess I need to know what your investment is in perpetuating these romantic myths. Whats in it for you? 

".........I spent some time on the HRD><HKD post yesterday, and when I'm back I'll write the text on Suam Dosa together with "what I'm advocating", and we can take it from there. If you like........................"

Thats fine. I'll be here. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Bob D.

Yes, this should be entertaining!


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## glad2bhere

Dear Bob: 

I can't speak for the entertainment value, but somewhere along the line this crap has got to stop. For some 40 years people in positions of responsibility have been spouting various stories to validate their organizational efforts. Sometimes I can't believe the man-hours and efforts that have been made to try and bring some reality to this stuff. I have noticed recently that many of the former statement spoken like Hold Writ now come with a number of qualifiers and disclaimers such as the interview in BLACK BELT magazine some time back by GM Lee.  Its not bad enough that many of the typical practitioners WANT to believe, but the authorities KNOW they are bending the truth and continue to do it until they are painted into a corner. Even then they won't own that they were propagating an image to bolster membership enrollment. 

The simple truth is that the Hapkido arts are 25% physical, 25% intellectual, 25% emotional and 25% spiritual. The people are passing these arts on to us jumped into the pool at a particular historical point and wanted to make something out of it that exceeds what it really is in truth. The arts themselves are difficult, sweaty, and painful work, and even if a person busts his butt his whole life he may only become reasonably good at them and not a BMOC.  I have come to thoroughly resent these martial fantasies that people soak Korean martial science in to make it more salable to gullible publics around the world which is the whole reason I bang away at these things. If JBL wants to invoke the HwaRang so as to build membership, let him show some guts and come out clearly and say that what he is doing. If he put half as much effort into telling the whole truth as he does in defending the half-truths the man would probably not have to spend so much time working on building his organization. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Bob D.

Bruce, The stories JBL has told are only a small part of the problem with WHRDA. The reasons that there are so few schools has to do with a great system being watered down, promotions gien without ability or enough time behind them, arrogant leaders, abusive leaders, money, fees, more money, and a general lack of mutual respect from leaders.
Any talent that went through the system has left (I know of 12 senior instructors personally and the blackbelts under them as well). I remember in around 1981, there were about 8 Master instructors that moved to California from S. Korea. They all left the orginization within a couple of years because of issues with JBL and his oldest boy. The schools on east coast are under GM Yum and are far enough away that they are less effected by world HQ. After 30 years you can count the number of schools that REALLY exist on both hands. The good thing is that there are a few schools that are no longer affiliated with WHRDA that teach some of the old way.
What was originally taught by Lee, Joo-Sang the older brother of JBL was power and combat oriented (Kicks - joint locks). It was taught somewhat randomly. The system with numbered sets and hyungs was implemented after JBL came in 1972. Four of the five instructors I've directly trained under came from Lee, Joo Sang. They all say the subtleties of how JSL did kicks and joint locks was different then the way JBL does them. This has to be due to more then Carstens explaination. It might be partly due to the fact that JBL was still in Korea for 8 years longer then JSL.  It might be that they trained with different teachers before '65. It would be interesting to know.
Many instructors say JSL was more able and willing to teach details of technique.  JBL would show it and expect one to get it then move on. I think the emphisis changed to demo techniques and new students got cought up in memorizing the large sets of techniques for belt tests and not perfecting them or training them to work spontaneously. I started in late '79 and I left in 1986 to further my college education. When I came back in 1990 things had changed dramatically. I continue with HRD and have dabbled in Hapkido, Judo, BJJ, and now Yanagi Aki-jujitsu. I find the latter 3 have filled in the blanks so to speak. ...OK I'm rambling now. I guess I will always have HRD, whatever it is, in my blood. I am very impressed with your knowledge of Korean MA and share your interest. I have some things to add to the story when the time is right or when they can be verified.      Regards, Bob


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## Bob D.

BTW, I studied Kuk Sool Won with Master Moon in Tarzana, CA. for a month. Granted, one month is not very much time but I was 4 years into Hwa Rang Do at the time and knew what I was looking at. I found that while the "look" of the forms, some of the joint lock sets, and the "name" of the kicks and when they were taught are similar, They are infact done differently. I found it very "studio" oriented compared to the HRD I was doing. The joint locks were "nice" and overly stylized. The kicks had no power and thier form (the kicks)was basic and lacking sophistication. It seemed to be very "pretty" but not "dynamic" like HRD was.  I was not very impressed  with KSW and never went back even though my HRD school was 20 min. farther.     B


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## glad2bhere

Dear Bob: 

"......What was originally taught by Lee, Joo-Sang the older brother of JBL was power and combat oriented (Kicks - joint locks). It was taught somewhat randomly. ...." 

I think we are definitely on the same wave-length. Of course, it follows that the next question would be who still does things the "old way"? For instance, the material of the KUK SOOL people seems to have really gone down hill since the brothers split up and went their separate ways. I am not surprised to hear that the material has become essentially "theatrical." But there are still folks who teach the older material though it is provided under an alternate name now that things have been trademarked. In like manner, then, I should think that someone is still doing things the older way, even if it is not with WHRDA trademarks and titles all over it. If JBL's material was related to Kim, Moo-Woongs' style of kicking would it be enough to find a person or persons' who trace their material back to Kim? Are there people who still practice the earlier method of what we know now as HwaRangDo albeit under a different name? I hope I am making myself clear enough. I know their are people who purport to teach HwaRangDo, though I don't know them to be WHRDA members. What I think I am asking is if somehow the original approach was preserved in some obscure location while JBL went forward with his organization? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Bob D.

Bruce, There are a few different answers to your question. There is a Hwa Rang Do in Australia that is totally independent of JBL and never was affiliated as far as I know. I don't know what the details are. 
<p>There are Hwa rang do in Korea that are not WHRDA. From what I've seen it is very soft style and very dynamic at the same time.
<p>There are Korean instructors here in the States that were with JBL but now teach thier own system. Unfortunatly some of the senior masters have changed things just for the sake of doing it differently then WHRDA and the results are silly. Others are pretty amazing.
<p> I'll come back later.     Bob


----------



## Hwarang

>> Yes, there are quite a few errors in the chapter on Hwarang Do. I don't think GM Kimm feels the book is 100% accurate?....." 
I have spoken with Dr. Kimm about his material. <<

Of course there are errors, GM Kimm has done a lot of great work, but he has the same problem as anyone else:  
There were very, very few original teaching people originally. If it was complete he probably wouldn't have to update it?

One example of errors in the Hwarang Do text is about GM Lee and GM Kim Mu Hong:
GM Joo Bang Lee opened his first school in 1960, GM Kim Mu-Hong opened his first school in 1961. That's a problem, how did Kim teach Lee then?
GM Kim Mu-Hong was a student of GM Suh Bok-Sup. So, because of the book, you're now saying that GM Lee really was NOT a student of GM Choi. You now think he's a student of GM Kim, who was a student of GM Suh, who was a student of GM Choi? Then we have alot of long discussions ahead of us.
I'd like you to explain your position on this.

>> ".......Dong Kie Shin? Why is Hwarang Kwan relevant?
His curriculum is nearly identical to the one that both he and JBL derived from their experience with GM Kim, Moo Woong. <<

You have to explain a little more before I can post. Are you saying GM Shin says GM Lee was a student of GM Kim, or are you saying you think GM Shin's curriculum = GM Lee's curriculum = GM Kim's curriculum???

>> Are we to believe that everyone from Choi, to Kim, to Ji to Myung all pirated material from a young JBL? <<

Are any of the many, many "Hapkido" styles identical to Daito Ryu? Are you saying it was a young Ji, a young Myung or a young Kim who changed it? They were all young, there were no one else there teaching at the time... 

>>Now in fairness to the readership here I should remind you that on two previous occasions we have come to this point in similar discussions (most recently last year on the DOCHANG DIGEST) and on both of those previous occasions you have quite suddenly dropped out of the discussion. <<

I have been a member of two mailing lists: Glenn's TKD list and the_dojang. I was kicked off TKD because I posted on the_dojang. Denmark is a free country and I don't like censorship, so I did not sign up again. I certainly did unsubscribe the_dojang however. There were several reasons, not least that the discussions were going in circles and I've been doing this for very long. At least here I can refer to the old posts instead of having to repost everything. It takes me a long time to write this in English and I don't appreciate you're imply I'm evading discussing with you.

>> So unless you can support your statements with facts I guess I need to know what your investment is in perpetuating these romantic myths. Whats in it for you? <<

There you go again - show me where I'm perpetuating romantic myths!
I post on history, and if you can show me examples of doing anything else, I'd appreciate you either show some posts or stop slamming me. 
What's in it for me? I would like to say here on a public list that I am not a spokesman for World Hwarang Do Association. They do not know I post here, or anywhere else. I do not make any money from teaching Hwarang Do, but I am one of the people who knows the most about Hwarang Do history and it irritates me that you and other people in America are posting the most unbelievable nonsense on Hwarang Do without anyone showing you're wrong.

>> Yes, this should be entertaining! <<

Hi Bob D, hope it was entertaining for you. 
Did you explain how Hwarang Do *really* is a business cult yet?
I'll start a new thread for you.

Ill have a follow-up to the last couple of posts in this thread in a moment.


----------



## dohap

Hwarang:
the only way to clear the internet from "nonsenses" is to publish real  history.
Don't be surprised.
Let's look at the lineage of JBLee.
If the lineage was preserved (and was, if JBLee knows He's 58th) also names should be known. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So why You don't write it?


----------



## Hwarang

lol - I can't finish writing it because I'm busy answering all your comments.

Almost there.


----------



## dohap

so just answer this about hyungs and lineage. In others I'm not so interested.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Carsten: 

OK. Lets try this again. 

Three simple questions. 

a.) Joo Bang Lee represented himself as the 59th grandmaster of his lineage.  Please given the names of #58, #57, #56, and #55 and perhaps a brief bio on each. 

b.) When Did Joo Bang Lee start teaching his art, how old was he and who were his first 10 students? 

c.) Joo Bang Lee is the product of a system based on the O-Gae. Why is he unwilling or unable to maintain a sustained relationship with various members of his organization? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Michael Billings

... many of us are reading these threads with interest.  I do not understand the dichotomy between what you are asking, with how you are asking it.  

There is a very challenging tone to the posts, and you stated that you all have reached this impasse previously on other Boards.  Please try to include some of the subtext or history, so that the average reader, like myself, gets a better understanding of what is pretty obviously occurring between you.

Respectfully,
-Michael


----------



## Michael Billings

I have read the thread here re: Hwa rang-Do 

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=191041#post191041*

So I have a little perspective.  

-Michael


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## dohap

It's taking so long only because "Hwarang" doesn't want to answer 2 simple questions: what is JBLee's lineage (with names) and who created hrd forms (sulsa is another story).


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Michael: 

Your post begs a very long and complex answer, so at the risk of over-simplifying things let me provide a few background points as I see them. 

1.) We don't really know what it was that Choi studied in Japan, but he did bring back to Korea some art that he chose to teach, first out of an independent school, then, failing that, out of the back of a brewery, and finally out of his house. 

2.) The Big Five, as I call them---- Ji, Han Jae; Seo, In Hyuk; Lee, Joo Bang, Kim, Moo-woong and Suh, Bok Sub were all part and parcel of the early Choi years and each went on to represent a tradition when it became plain that they could not work together to produce a unified art to represent Korean martial tradition after the fashion that TKD was doing at the time. 

3.) While Japanese traditions usually get the lions share of recognition in the development of these modern Hapkido arts, the role of the indigenous arts of Korea as well as the influence of Chinese traditions usually get short shrift. This lack of focus on these influencial arts from China and the arts practiced in Korea itself often provides a loophole through which people such as Lee, Joo Bang and Suh, In Hyuk can represent their arts as somehow more authentic Korean arts and use obscure references to validate their arts. The problem is that uniformly the support for these claims always comes back to "cuz teacher says" rather than supported by documentation, citations and references. 

4.) In the last 10 years various people have begun to press for more standardized and valid resources to support the claims of Hapkido leadership about their arts. Many times the result is that when painted into a corner, the advocates for these arts close-up only to resurface later at another location to start the whole process over again.  

In closing, let me say that the Hapkido arts of Korea are among the finest in the World with many varied forms and takes on their content or curriculum. We don't need outlandship claims to lineage and heritage to validate these arts. They come through hardwork and dedication and invoking some romantic history won't change that or make them any better. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Hwarang

Bruce:
>> Are there people who still practice the earlier method of what we know now as HwaRangDo albeit under a different name?<<

Would it be an idea talking with GM Lee himself rather than talking with other people about him?
You know, he does live in America. He's really very friendly, if he has the time, I've never seen him turn away people.

BobD:
>> There is a Hwa Rang Do in Australia that is totally independent of JBL and never was affiliated as far as I know. I don't know what the details are. <<

GM Lee called him in Australia long time ago. There is no connection, the Australian master used the name because when heard about GM Lee and the Hwarang Do people when he trained Taekwondo in Korea.

>> There are Hwa rang do in Korea that are not WHRDA. <<

There are many old Hwarang Do people in Korea from when GM Lee was there. Some of them teach under the name "Hapkido" because it's much better known today. But there are certainly WHRDA in Korea.

>> Four of the five instructors I've directly trained under came from Lee, Joo Sang. They all say the subtleties of how JSL did kicks and joint locks was different then the way JBL does them. This has to be due to more then Carstens explaination. <<

Of course it has to be something strange, the fact that Hwarang Do black belts moves and kicks differently doesnt apply to grandmasters  <ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz>

Bruce:
>> Three simple questions. <<

Thanks!

>> a.) Joo Bang Lee represented himself as the 59th grandmaster of his lineage. Please given the names of #58, #57, #56, and #55 and perhaps a brief bio on each. <<

58th generation was the monk Suam Dosa. I have never asked about 57-55. I can if you're interested, or you could go talk with him in LA?

>> b.) When Did Joo Bang Lee start teaching his art, how old was he and who were his first 10 students? <<

The first school opened April 17th 1960 and the first black belt test was on May 5th 1961. GM An Sang-duk, the Korean chiefgrandmaster was one of the people who tested at the first blackbelt test. 

http://www.hwarangdo.com/certif.htm is a searchable list of Hwarang Do black belts. You can also list all black belts here: http://www.hwarangdo.com/blacksash.cgi , this includes pictures and will take a long time if you have a slow Internet connection.

If you go to the page listed you'll notice that only the active masters are listed. But since I typed all Korean black belts into the computer in 1989 (some obscure program I'm sure no current computer can read  I know for a fact that the list is complete.
This was before I could read Korean, so GM Lee wrote down the names on sheets of paper, and I typed them in. I'll see if I still have the original papers so I can answer your question completely Bruce.

In case you are still not convinced GM Lee opened his school in 1960: here is the cover from the tournament program from the "5th National Hwa Rang Do Tournament and Exhibition November 1972". 
The top line reads in Korean "Che 12chu-nyon ki-nyoum - 12 years founding anniversary" (1972 minus 12 years = 1960), http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/5th-exhibition.html . Would you like to discuss the validity of the tournament program?

I don't have GM Lee's birthday here, but I'm guessing early 20ies.

>> c.) Joo Bang Lee is the product of a system based on the O-Gae. Why is he unwilling or unable to maintain a sustained relationship with various members of his organization? <<

I started this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12382 called "Talking bad about Hwarang Do". As I say in the thread there are as many reasons for people to stop training Hwarang Do as in any other style. 
Are you saying that all GM Lee's student hate him?

Could you please follow up on this in the other thread so we can keep this for discussions about Hwarang Do and Kuk Sool Won?

Here you go Dohap, thanks for your patience 
The monk Suam Dosa and Hwarang Do :
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=12393


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## Bob D.

Carsten, You still don't understand! We want info that does not originate with JBL. 

Also, are you saying that JBL at 18 years of age was given highest masters rank over all other GM Choi students?


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## Hwarang

You want?

What part of my post do you find would improve with information from other sources?

1960 was before they were giving ranks. People just trained there without the students knowing about the other students. It was not until 1968 that GM Ji and GM Lee recieved the 8.dan from GM Choi.

But age is really not a good argument for anything Bob D, they were all young.


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## Bob D.

> You want?



No, don't mis-quote. "We want"



> What part of my post do you find would improve with information from other sources?



First off, the parts where you say ask GM Lee yourselves.
Then, most of what you have written on other threads.



> 1960 was before they were giving ranks. People just trained there without the students knowing about the other students. It was not until 1968 that GM Ji and GM Lee recieved the 8.dan from GM Choi.



You just got through saying on another thread that he was given masters rank in 1956.
You make it sound like they were training in secret.  Do you really believe one could  train to master level for 6 years or so and not know about thier teachers other students?? That's silly.






> But age is really not a good argument for anything Bob D, they were all young



You believe that an 18 year old mastered an art beyond all others in about 6 years while going to regular school and training with the monk? Amazing!

Where does In yuk Suh fit in to all of this? Do you think he studied with Choi? 

Why do you suppose HRD & KSW share  the same syllibus?


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## glad2bhere

Dear Carsten: 

Thank you for your post, however, what I am (and I think everyone else is) seeking is independent validation or verification of statements made regarding the nature and content and history of what is presented by JBL as "HwaRangDo"/Um-Yang Kwon. No independent verification, no facts. Its as simple as that. Nobody faults that JBL can represent anything as anything he might care to. However, to represent his statements as facts, unlike in countries such as China and Korea one cannot mix myth and fact. Please provide independent sources and verification of the information I requested. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Michael Billings

History is often written by the winners ... or survivors.  Sometimes it is mallable even within your own lifetime.  This is not a good thing, but it is accurate and not just within your Arts, respectively.

You are looking for black and white facts, trust me, recollections change, even when you are not talking about a 40 year difference.  I hear contradictory stories all the time, by people who were at the same scene, at the same time, observing the same thing.  Many things color our recollections of events pasts.  Even written documentation could be conveniently "created."  

Just visit one of the other forums, Ninjitsu, Kenpo, Modern Arnis, and you will see this same disagreement, different players, different words ... but the same theme.

Be proud of your lineage, respect your seniors, and be tolerant of those who just don't know what they don't know, (another way of saying they don't know any better.)  I do not see this thread coming to a fruitful conclusion, do you?  Can there be an agreement to disagree?  Yes, I know this is difficult, but as we respect our own sources of information and history, we will zealously protect them.  I have seen this same stance in many a good person, who just did not know they had been hoodwinked, or misled unintentionally by the "sources" of their information.

The polarity you have from each other will continue as long as you allow it.  I don't see either of you as the type to "back down."

Good luck and keep training ... it is a lot better than typing.

Oss,
-Michael


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## Bob D.

I think it's just a search for accurate info.


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## glad2bhere

BTW: Did we ever get an answer regarding the similarities or differences between the hyung used by the WHRDA and the WKSWA? Do both use the same Keecho hyung? How about advanced forms? Does anyone have any insights into who formulated the original forms or where they may have been derived from in either art?  Anyone? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## dohap

Please, check and join my discussion with Bob D. under "the origin of HRD forms".


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## Bob D.

JKN75:





> Although there is no confirmation, there have been two events that may reveal which monks IHS trained under. On the Korea trip in 2002, the Kuk Sool group stayed at the Bak Dahm Sa Temple. They were allowed to stay the night and the group was taught some meditation techniques. The second event was during the 2003 World Tournament. The Great Monk Cho, Oh Hyun visited the KSW Ranch, spoke at the Master's Demo and again at the Ranch the next day. I assume there would be some connection for the Great Monk to come to the US and allow outsiders into the temple for a night.



Did this monk offer any martial arts?

Do you know of the late master Moon?


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## glad2bhere

Monasteries are funny places. 

Dr He-young Kimm sheparded a rather large group to a Son monastery a couple of years back. The group was treated to training in breathing techniques and there was a demo of a sort of MA. The reviews were somewhat mixed on the technical excellence of the performance. However, later Dr. Kimm confided that there were a number of very proficient practitioners who for one reason or another were reluctant to show their skills. From Dr. Kimms' report these gentlemen were very accomplished, and I would trust his assessment implicitly.  I share this because I find some of the same retiscence on the part of Koreans to discuss much about the Chinese influences on the Korean arts.  Its almost as though there is the "public face of KMA" that is put forward for mass consumption and then there is the very private side reserved for a select few. The Koreans have always been very isolative as a people. Guess there is no reason to think that character has changed just because they have been exposed to Western thought, yes? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Zendokan

The problem with the KMAs is the same with almost all native information of the land. Almost all of it was destroyed after the Japanese invasion and replaces by JMAs and the japanese version of the history...a well known tactic that we see appear in almost every war between etnic groups and countries. And if that wasn't enough the civil war that followed thour up the country and really destroyed the few things that had survived the Japanese occupation.

So after the civil war the koreans had to build up their country and try to resurrect their history, which was almost impossible.

The original KMAs were REcreated from old documents and a few very old persons who studied them before the Japanese invasion and maybe covert during the early years after the invasion.
That's why we speak nowadays of "modern" taekyon and not taekyon because it's a REcreation of how the koreans interpreted the documents.

The second methode was to koreanifate the foreign MAs, Shotokan karate became TSD and TKD, Aiki Ju Jutsu became Hapki Yu Sul and later Hapkido. Chuan Fa became Gwon Beop, Judo became Yudo, etc...

There's nothing wrong with both methodes but like most (asian) peoples they had a proudness and saying that you train in an Re-invented or a Koreanfided art (of your enemy) was really not done. So they invented lineages to their MAs to boost popularity, cultural awareness, etc...
Example:Everyone heard of the 2000 year old lineage of TKD.

Only the last decade this mentallity is changing and new created KMAs don't try to boost with a (fictional) linaege.

There are forrests destroyed for paper of the books with pro-linaeges debate, contra-linaege debate, facts and fictions.

Simple resumé is:

Aiki Ju Jutsu was renamed into Hapki Yu Sul.
Hapkido = Hapki Yu Sul + "Modern" Taekyon
Hwa Rang Do = Hapkido + Yudo
Kuk Sool Won = Hapkido + Kung-Fu (an animal style).

All the rest of (fictional) linaege, who trained with who and in what, doesn't matter nowadays (or shouldn't anyway).

Greetz,

Zendokan


----------



## howard

Zendokan said:


> ...Aiki Ju Jutsu became Hapki Yu Sul and later Hapkido...
> 
> ...Aiki Ju Jutsu was renamed into Hapki Yu Sul... Hapkido = Hapki Yu Sul + "Modern" Taekyon...


I don't have much time now, but this is pretty far from demonstrably accurate.

If you have reliable evidence that Aikijujutsu (of which there are really only two known strains - Daito-ryu and Yanagi-ryu) is the basis of Hapkido, and that mainstream, modern Hapkido's kicks come from Taek Kyeon, please share it. You would resolve some gargantuan controversies in one stroke.


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## arnisador

Hapkido did come from aikijutsu, but the kicks are ultimately from Shotokan and similar JMAs, later modified.


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## Zendokan

howard said:


> ...mainstream, modern Hapkido's kicks come from Taek Kyeon...


 and it's Aiki Ju Jutsu from the Daito-Ryu linaege.

I said "Modern" Taekyon, the REcreation of Taekyon using the few documents and practisiners that survived. And those practisiners didn't start teaching new students since they were after the civil war very old, their knowdledge was writen down.
With only that information and a (shotokan) karate background they tried to REcreate Taekyon, that's why I said "modern" Taekyon, because except the name it is not an decendant of pre-occupation Taekyon.

You could take the example of American Football and Soccer:
The USA gets conquered, American Football gets replaced with Soccer and only this gets trained. Almost all documents concerning American Football get destroyed and the Starplayers get executed.
After +/- 55 years the USA gets free and want to recreate American Football by using a few documents that survived and some 70 year old second league players, well what will you get than...
an American Football like sport, played with a soccer ball and not the "egg-shaped" ball with passages that have to be kicked to each other instead of throwing.
It would still be a great sport but except the name it would have got nothing to do with pre-occupation American Football.


----------



## howard

Zendokan,

Nice analogy, but we still have no reliable evidence that Hapkido actually comes from Daito-ryu.

With respect to the Jujutsu-based material that Choi taught, there is strong suggestive evidence that it comes from either Daito-ryu or the Yoshida family art (which became Yanagi-ryu), but no proof.

If we compare the original yawara techniques that Choi taught (and that a few have stuck with) with Daito-ryu, we see both strong similarities and significant differences.

I can't speak about the kicking techniques that Ji and Kim added to Choi's yawara base, because the kwan I train in does not use them. But we do use ten basic kicks that Choi taught, and none of them is seen in Daito-ryu.

All we have at present to connect Choi's art to Daito-ryu are anectodal accounts. It is very well known that there are no known written records of Choi ever having trained under Takeda Sokaku.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that, at the very least, Choi was exposed to Daito-ryu. There are simply too many similarities between his original art and Daito-ryu for it to be attributable to chance. But, we still don't know.


----------



## elder999

howard said:


> Zendokan,
> 
> Nice analogy, but we still have no reliable evidence that Hapkido actually comes from Daito-ryu.
> 
> With respect to the Jujutsu-based material that Choi taught, there is strong suggestive evidence that it comes from either Daito-ryu or the Yoshida family art (which became Yanagi-ryu), but no proof.
> 
> If we compare the original yawara techniques that Choi taught (and that a few have stuck with) with Daito-ryu, we see both strong similarities and significant differences.
> 
> I can't speak about the kicking techniques that Ji and Kim added to Choi's yawara base, because the kwan I train in does not use them. But we do use ten basic kicks that Choi taught, and none of them is seen in Daito-ryu.
> 
> All we have at present to connect Choi's art to Daito-ryu are anectodal accounts. It is very well known that there are no known written records of Choi ever having trained under Takeda Sokaku.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I believe that, at the very least, Choi was exposed to Daito-ryu. There are simply too many similarities between his original art and Daito-ryu for it to be attributable to chance. But, we still don't know.


 
I tried to shed what little light there is for this conversation once, with  this post.  Granted, it's anecdotal, but considering that it came from Kisshomaru Ueshiba, it's probably fairly reliable.


----------



## Zendokan

Dear Howard,

I agree with what you say on the fact that Choi was no "official" student of Daito-Ryu. And the statements that connect Choi to the grandmaster at that time of Daito-Ryu aren't sure if Choi was an adopted son or a servent. But he lived for 31 years with that grandmaster, this we now.

But I saw in your profile that you did Hapkido and Aiki Ju Jutsu.

I think you would agree with me that there excist alot of techniques of which you could say that they are unique to Daito-Ryu and his offspring styles. A sort of style fingerprint.
Well you can find that fingerprint from Daito-Ryu in Hakko-Ryu, Aikido and Hapkido. 
All other Japanese Ju Jutsu-systems nowadays have the fingerprint of Shinto Tenshin-Ryu (every modern JJJ system, Judo and BJJ).

So the fingerprint proofs that Daito-Ryu is the ancestor-style of Hapkido, ofcourse Hapkido is different from Daito-Ryu thru evolution and adaption (Koreans are not Japanse, militairy use in an effective war, expotior to other korean systems, etc...), but the fingerprint techniques stayed.

And the truth of it all, we will never know, but is this important, Daito-Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu and Hapkido can excist perfectly side by side without being 100% eachother competitor.

With kind regards,

Zendokan


----------



## howard

Hello, Zendokan, thanks for your reply. I'd like to try to respond to some of your points if I might.



Zendokan said:


> I agree with what you say on the fact that Choi was no "official" student of Daito-Ryu. And the statements that connect Choi to the grandmaster at that time of Daito-Ryu aren't sure if Choi was an adopted son or a servent. But he lived for 31 years with that grandmaster, this we now.



Actually, we don't know those things.

We know that Choi spent about 30 years in Japan. We know beyond any doubt that he learned a sophisticated form of Jujutsu that definitely has aiki techniques.

We know, from Choi's accounts to at least one of his long-time direct students, that Choi always maintained that while he was in Japan he  learned Daito-ryu directly from Takeda Sokaku. We know further that he maintained that he taught exactly what he learned in Japan - without modification.

We _don't_ know for a fact if Takeda actually taught him.

It is next to impossible that he was considered an "adopted", or surrogate, son of Takeda (by the way, the source of that story is highly suspect). He might have been Takeda's servant, but with the evidence available to us today, we can neither prove nor refute that hypothesis.



Zendokan said:


> But I saw in your profile that you did Hapkido and Aiki Ju Jutsu.



Yes sir, that's right.



Zendokan said:


> I think you would agree with me that there excist alot of techniques of which you could say that they are unique to Daito-Ryu and his offspring styles. A sort of style fingerprint.



Yes.



Zendokan said:


> Well you can find that fingerprint from Daito-Ryu in Hakko-Ryu, Aikido and Hapkido... So the fingerprint proofs that Daito-Ryu is the ancestor-style of Hapkido, ofcourse Hapkido is different from Daito-Ryu thru evolution and adaption (Koreans are not Japanse, militairy use in an effective war, expotior to other korean systems, etc...), but the fingerprint techniques stayed.



 With regard to Hakko-ryu and Aikido, there is no doubt about the link to Daito-ryu.

With regard to Hapkido, to repeat, we simply can't prove it.

I'd be elated to find proof that Choi learned Daito-ryu. I can tell you from first-hand experience that if you are fortunate enough to be able to find both a school that teaches the Jujutsu-based art that Choi taught when he returned to Korea (there aren't many - most teach the expanded art, with a strong focus on kicking, that can be traced back to Ji Han Jae), and a legitimate Daito-ryu school (of which there are very few in the US), and you train for a while in both, you will most likely conclude that Choi did learn Daito-ryu somehow.

But, as confounding as it is, we still can't prove it. Nor do we know who really taught him during all of those years in Japan.

Again, thanks for your reply.

 All the best, Howard


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## miguksaram

"I post on history, and if you can show me examples of doing anything else, I'd appreciate you either show some posts or stop slamming me."

I am curious.  When you say you post on history what references are you using.  Example, if you say HRD is 2000 years old, what are the references you are using to back such a claim?  

In regards to the Dosa, why did he only teach the Lees?  What about the 57th or 56th leader?  Did they only teach one person?  If not then why don't we see other HRD systems besides Lee's?  Lastly you make a lot of reference to JBL but very little to JSL, why is that?  It was my understanding that JSL was the senior until he retired from teaching.  Most of the "renegades" learned under JSL and had problems with JBL.


----------



## shesulsa

miguksaram said:


> "I post on history, and if you can show me examples of doing anything else, I'd appreciate you either show some posts or stop slamming me."
> 
> I am curious.  When you say you post on history what references are you using.  Example, if you say HRD is 2000 years old, what are the references you are using to back such a claim?
> 
> In regards to the Dosa, why did he only teach the Lees?  What about the 57th or 56th leader?  Did they only teach one person?  If not then why don't we see other HRD systems besides Lee's?  Lastly you make a lot of reference to JBL but very little to JSL, why is that?  It was my understanding that JSL was the senior until he retired from teaching.  Most of the "renegades" learned under JSL and had problems with JBL.



I don't know if you realize this, but the post you're quoting is five years old and the account is closed.  

:asian:


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## miguksaram

shesulsa said:


> I don't know if you realize this, but the post you're quoting is five years old and the account is closed.
> 
> :asian:


 
Oopss...Well it has been a loooong time since I was a member and I just started reading the posts.  Oh well.  I already sort of know the answer he was going to give.


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