# Heroic Consequences ~ Questions to ask yourself before going in defense of others



## Lisa (Nov 4, 2007)

> When we holster up, an astounding emotional transformation often occurs: We become empowered. We feel defended, secure--we almost feel immortal. It's as if the firearm we carry imparts strength and shielding approaching superhero proportions.



FULL ARTICLE

Do you agree with what the Author is saying?  What don't you agree with?


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## Jai (Nov 4, 2007)

I agree, something much along the same lines happens to me from time to time, I have tried to train my mental state to not accept this way of thinking over the years, but sometimes it still slips through.


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## jks9199 (Nov 4, 2007)

The article raises a number of very important issues.  Very bluntly, for a civilian (or even an off-duty LEO) to jump into the middle of something is taking a big risk; you don't know the circumstances.  The "apparent" attacker may actually be a victim successfully defending themselves -- or as the article pointed out, a cop effecting an arrest.  My general advice, whether or not you're armed, is that the best rule is to call 911 (or your emergency number), and be a good witness UNLESS immediate action is necessary to save a life AND your actions don't create a greater danger.  For example, yesterday I was at a church bazaar with my 2 year old niece.  In the really unlikely event of a robbery there, I would have been seriously irresponsible to jump out and try to deal with it; I had my niece in my care.  But -- if I thought that the robber was about to shoot someone, then my choices might change, if I had someone else to watch my niece.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 4, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The article raises a number of very important issues. Very bluntly, for a civilian (or even an off-duty LEO) to jump into the middle of something is taking a big risk; you don't know the circumstances. The "apparent" attacker may actually be a victim successfully defending themselves -- or as the article pointed out, a cop effecting an arrest. My general advice, whether or not you're armed, is that the best rule is to call 911 (or your emergency number), and be a good witness UNLESS immediate action is necessary to save a life AND your actions don't create a greater danger. For example, yesterday I was at a church bazaar with my 2 year old niece. In the really unlikely event of a robbery there, I would have been seriously irresponsible to jump out and try to deal with it; I had my niece in my care. But -- if I thought that the robber was about to shoot someone, then my choices might change, if I had someone else to watch my niece.


 
This is really good, solid advice from someone in the daily business of protecting othe people.  Calling 911 and being a good witness is definately something that all of us need in our game plan.  Of course if immediate action is necessary to save a life or defend a helpless person then you may need to do so depending on every situations various individual circumstances.  Definately each situation will be different but we all need to have in our game plan on calling an emergency number and being a good witness!


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## Lisa (Nov 4, 2007)

I think the author brings up good points about staying safe and not putting yourself in any situation to begin with.  I particularly liked the part of "If you carry it you must train with it and maintain situational awareness at all times."  I found the article straight forward and good sound advice.


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## Cruentus (Nov 4, 2007)

I thought the article was great advice. Police and Military personel observe all of the same type of potential consequences (from psychological/emotions to physical to legal), but are given an SOP and trained to think about these things. Citizens, need to think about these things too, and have a realistic picture when taking on the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon.


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## tellner (Nov 4, 2007)

I really don't see it that way. And neither do most of the gunnies I personally spend time with. Anyone who has been in bad situations knows that it doesn't make you Superman. It doesn't even make you Green Arrow. But it does change the odds and alters most conflict situations. Most of the time it makes you avoid them. When a gun is present anything can become a deadly force situation instantly. Most of us would prefer not to have anything to do with that unless we absolutely have to. So you learn to let things slide. 

As for coming to someone else's aid, I've done it. With a gun present but concealed and without one. It's something I would have done anyway, but it was much better to do so with that option available. It wasn't heroism or a feeling of invulnerability. It was just what I do augmented by having the right tool for the job. 

I will say something that will get almost all the gunnies and knifers here mad at me. And in this case it might be a good thing.

There's a stage of development where you do feel invulnerable, covered with hair, ten feet tall and with huge swinging testicles. And that's just the girls  With the boys it can be much worse. Fortunately, almost everyone grows out of it pretty quickly. It's kind of like Green Belt's Disease but with a higher geek factor due to the hardware. It's a combination of novelty, insecurity, fear, unintegrated psychic factors, power and a number of other things. It's sort of like getting a driver's license for the first time. And like the driver's license almost everyone gets past the "Vroom! Vroom!" stage pretty quickly. It just becomes part of life, another set of capacities and responsibilities.

Some don't. And you can spot them. They're the ones who are *constantly* playing scenarios in their head. Usually involving Sarah Brady, Senator Schumer, a reinforced platoon of swarthy terrorists, a dozen large Negroes with razors and half the European Kindred Aryan prison gang. The fantasy usually has the special effects budget of a minor Hollywood action flick with them as the heroes. It's almost always coupled with inarticulate fears about "Them" rushing out and "coming for our Guns". It's all motivated by fear with the corresponding desire for control and power. That's not unhealthy in itself. But when someone is stuck there it's a sign of lack of balance in other areas of his or her emotional life. It's like staying in Condition Orange or Red all the time. 

The weird sexual stuff that the hoplophobes talk about is almost never a gun thing. Shooting someone isn't even a violent act. There's a noise, a slight thump, and someone falls down sometimes a quarter mile away. That just isn't going to carbonate most people's hormones. Unless it's the "They tried to kill me, but I survived!" rush which is a well-known turn on, shooting is just too, mmm, delicate an act for that visceral rush. Bang! Thud. meh.

Now knives are another thing altogether. Sticking a knife into someone, watching the tissues part, feeling the body give way, blood, smells and all the rest of that is a very intimate act. If someone is cross-wired in unwholesome but unfortunately not uncommon ways it can plug into the libido. I see that one way more often than I'd like to in people who are heavily into knives, not as tools or collectible objects but just out of knife-craziness. If you've been in the RBSD or FMA community for any length of time you'll know what I'm talking about. And you're a damned liar if you say you haven't seen it :shrug:

Again, most people who get into those areas go through a mild form of the disease. In some reasonable time it evens out and gets integrated into their personalities. The objectionable parts go away. And it's all good.


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## Cruentus (Nov 4, 2007)

tellner said:


> I really don't see it that way. And neither do most of the gunnies I personally spend time with. Anyone who has been in bad situations knows that it doesn't make you Superman.


 
Of course. But I think that the article speaks to people who haven't been in bad situations or in a situation where they have successfully fought with a weapon, and have misconceptions. I have met people with misconceptions before who could get a benefit from reading the article.


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## tellner (Nov 4, 2007)

Yeah, you right 

People at a certain stage could really benefit from that article. Fortunately, most people grow out of it. The ones who don't? Anything that helps get them there is good.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 4, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Of course. But I think that the article speaks to people who haven't been in bad situations or in a situation where they have successfully fought with a weapon, and have misconceptions. I have met people with misconceptions before who could get a benefit from reading the article.




Is that why I did not have the Super-Man feeling? My past and bad situations having already told me what can happen, that I am more often to be even more hesitant with a firearm on me than normal avoidance procedure.


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## Drac (Nov 5, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The article raises a number of very important issues. Very bluntly, for a civilian (or even an off-duty LEO) to jump into the middle of something is taking a big risk; you don't know the circumstances. The "apparent" attacker may actually be a victim successfully defending themselves -- or as the article pointed out, a cop effecting an arrest. My general advice, whether or not you're armed, is that the best rule is to call 911 (or your emergency number), and be a good witness UNLESS immediate action is necessary to save a life AND your actions don't create a greater danger


 
Very well said jks..Let me touch on the being a good witness...Something not glamoized my the movies, but is of *GREAT* help to the responding units..Vehicle make, color, plate, direction of travel and suspect description..


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## tellner (Nov 5, 2007)

Being a good witness is great for after the fact, making Officer Friendly's job easier. But it can be worse than useless while a crime is being committed. If you are actively defending yourself or another from a violent assault you would be a damned fool to stop what you're doing to note the color of his hair, the make, model and license plate of the car, etc. It's a perfect invitation to the freeze response. And that will cause you to end up in the hospital or dead if the situation actually warrants guns being drawn. 

Save that for when he's running away or if you are completely disabled and can't do anything but look. Take care of the immediate business before worrying about how to make it easier for someone else to arrest him sometime down the road.

I know that you don't mean it that way. But I've seen a number of police crime prevention workshops for the public. Too many of them stressed stopping, looking, noting all sorts of details and how to be a good witness. When they don't stress heading over the horizon, giving him the wallet and running, or tearing off his head and beating him to death with it at least as much for life-threatening crimes they're doing a disservice to the public.


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## Drac (Nov 5, 2007)

tellner said:


> I know that you don't mean it that way


 
Well thank you for that




tellner said:


> But I've seen a number of police crime prevention workshops for the public. Too many of them stressed stopping, looking, noting all sorts of details and how to be a good witness. When they don't stress heading over the horizon, giving him the wallet and running, or tearing off his head and beating him to death with it at least as much for life-threatening crimes they're doing a disservice to the public.


 
Because too many non-LEO's run off half cocked with the BEST of intentions and usually wind up getting themselves in trouble..


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 5, 2007)

tellner said:


> Being a good witness is great for after the fact, making Officer Friendly's job easier. But it can be worse than useless while a crime is being committed. If you are actively defending yourself or another from a violent assault you would be a damned fool to stop what you're doing to note the color of his hair, the make, model and license plate of the car, etc. It's a perfect invitation to the freeze response. And that will cause you to end up in the hospital or dead if the situation actually warrants guns being drawn.
> 
> Save that for when he's running away or if you are completely disabled and can't do anything but look. Take care of the immediate business before worrying about how to make it easier for someone else to arrest him sometime down the road.
> 
> I know that you don't mean it that way. But I've seen a number of police crime prevention workshops for the public. Too many of them stressed stopping, looking, noting all sorts of details and how to be a good witness. When they don't stress heading over the horizon, giving him the wallet and running, or tearing off his head and beating him to death with it at least as much for life-threatening crimes they're doing a disservice to the public.


 
Theres a difference between being a witness and being a victim. I dont think anybody said "If attacked, just be a good witness". What theyre saying is "unless you feel you absolutely have to get involved or someone is going to get hurt or killed, just be a good witness and help the cops catch the guy."  Many "crimes" dont require you to tackle a guy and hold him for police.


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## jks9199 (Nov 5, 2007)

tellner said:


> Being a good witness is great for after the fact, making Officer Friendly's job easier. But it can be worse than useless while a crime is being committed. If you are actively defending yourself or another from a violent assault you would be a damned fool to stop what you're doing to note the color of his hair, the make, model and license plate of the car, etc. It's a perfect invitation to the freeze response. And that will cause you to end up in the hospital or dead if the situation actually warrants guns being drawn.
> 
> Save that for when he's running away or if you are completely disabled and can't do anything but look. Take care of the immediate business before worrying about how to make it easier for someone else to arrest him sometime down the road.
> 
> I know that you don't mean it that way. But I've seen a number of police crime prevention workshops for the public. Too many of them stressed stopping, looking, noting all sorts of details and how to be a good witness. When they don't stress heading over the horizon, giving him the wallet and running, or tearing off his head and beating him to death with it at least as much for life-threatening crimes they're doing a disservice to the public.


This thread (and the article that inspired it) deal largely with the issues of getting involved as a third party.  If you're being attacked... WIN.  After all, the broken bad guy lying at your feet is great evidence, all by himself.

But -- if you SEE a crime being committed, no matter whether your armed or not, often the best choice of action is NOT to become directly involved.  Instead, call it in, pass along what info you can, and stick around and give the responding officers what you saw.  I've had cases where one witness's information made the difference in who got charged.  Unless your action is necessary to save a life, it's not only safer, but avoids a lot of confusion if you don't intervene directly.  (I'm not saying you can't do something like yell "HEY!  I'M CALLING THE COPS!!!" that might act as a deterent.)


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## Cruentus (Nov 5, 2007)

A great example of when not to get involved unless you absolutely have too is domestic disputes. If you see a man and woman going at it and it is clear that they are in a relationship, unless someone is about to die call the cops and steer clear. Back in my younger days of event/bar security, a few of the guys I worked with had to learn that the hard way when they stepped in on the male slapping a female, only to find themselves fighting both the male and female who were in a relationship, and having police reports filed against them...


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## MarkBarlow (Nov 5, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> A great example of when not to get involved unless you absolutely have too is domestic disputes. If you see a man and woman going at it and it is clear that they are in a relationship, unless someone is about to die call the cops and steer clear. Back in my younger days of event/bar security, a few of the guys I worked with had to learn that the hard way when they stepped in on the male slapping a female, only to find themselves fighting both the male and female who were in a relationship, and having police reports filed against them...



I had that happen to me once.  Driving through a shopping center parking lot, I saw a man holding a woman by the throat with one hand and slapping her with the other.  I pulled up, stepped behind him and choked him out.  Imagine my surprise when the squad car pulls up a few seconds later and the girl is pointing at me screaming that I attacked her and her husband.  Thank God for bystanders who set the story straight and that one of the responding officers was a student of mine.  

As for whether I'll respond or not, the question for me is how would I feel about myself the next morning if I walked away without trying to help.


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## jks9199 (Nov 5, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> As for whether I'll respond or not, the question for me is how would I feel about myself the next morning if I walked away without trying to help.


 
That's really the ultimate question...

But HOW you choose to help is a different question.  You're helping if you simply call it in and get the cops coming.  You're helping if you stick around and tell the cops what you saw.  (Weren't those bystanders who straightened out the cops helpful to you?)  As I've said several times, the wisest option is often to make the appropriate calls, and stick around, rather than jump into the middle of something.  Direct intervention ALWAYS carries risks; if the danger involved at that moment doesn't outweigh those to yourself, to the people you're responsible for, to the people around you (the backstop rule, for example, still applies even if you are shooting at bad guys), to the people involved, and finally to the responding cops -- then sit back, and let the cops handle it.  At least they get paid to face those risks...


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## tellner (Nov 6, 2007)

That stage of development I was talking about?




​


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## Cruentus (Nov 6, 2007)

lol... awesome!


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## Lisa (Nov 6, 2007)

Very Funny!


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## Grenadier (Nov 6, 2007)

"Walk a mile in another man's shoes before you judge." -some wise man

The above statement can certainly apply here.  You have to put yourself in the other person's shoes.  Sometimes, it's obvious that you should act on behalf of another person.  If, for example, you seem some 300 lb thug kicking some old lady to the curb, or if you see some oddball slinging live grenades at a nearby building, then there's no question that you would be justified in acting on someone's behalf.  I'm sure that the old lady, or the people in that building would certainly want to defend themselves against a criminal. 

However, sometimes, you run into a grey area, where you're not sure.  There have been times, where a good Samaritan sees some guy beating up another guy, and shoots the guy who has the upper hand...  

...only to find out that the guy who had the upper hand was some good guy who was beating up a robber.  

The important thing is, to be certain that you would be justified in intervening.  If you do decide to intervene, remember, that you're there to stop the conflict, not to necessarily kill someone.  At the same time, you must be aware, that intervening could very well result in someone's death (preferably not yours...), and you must be willing to accept that someone could die.


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## Cruentus (Nov 6, 2007)

The "reasonable man" doctrine always applies...


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## tellner (Nov 6, 2007)

The "be sure you're justified in intervening" part is vital. You see two guys beating up a third one. You help the third man and find out that the two undercover cops you just punched out are not as happy with you as the serial mugger they were trying to arrest is. Or the man is knocking the woman around. You intervene. They both attack you.

Sometimes it's obvious what you should do. Sometimes it only seems that way.

If someone pouring gasoline on an occupied house you are absolutely justified, and I'd almost go so far as to say obliged, in shooting him immediately before he can light the match. I say obliged because you only have to look at what one kid playing with matches did in SoCal.

Or there was a case I got involved in some years back. A woman was holding her ~six year old down, had grabbed his hair and had already wanged his head off the pavement once. The "Respect Life" bumper sticker seemed like a particularly bad joke :angry: One of the people with me grabbed her before she could do it a second time. I don't give a **** if it was her son or what her theories were on child discipline. She could have killed him. 

In a sense you _are_ putting yourself in the shoes of the guy you defend. You'd better be sure that it's the right one. There are people I know well enough that I'd jump in without hesitation. I trust their judgment well enough to stake my life, freedom and everything I own on it. Make no mistake, that's what you're risking.


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## thardey (Nov 6, 2007)

In my CCW class, we were talking about 3rd party interventions, and the instructor told us about a guy who saw a hold-up in a convenience store. Some guy had a shotgun aimed at the clerk, a young girl. The hero pulled his pistol and shot the attacker through the window, only to learn that the "thug" was the owner of the store, and was doing a "simulation" of a robbery to teach the girl how to respond.

There's a slight difference between bad people and stupid people, and it's hard to know the difference at a moment's glance.


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## Guardian (Nov 11, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This is really good, solid advice from someone in the daily business of protecting othe people. Calling 911 and being a good witness is definately something that all of us need in our game plan. Of course if immediate action is necessary to save a life or defend a helpless person then you may need to do so depending on every situations various individual circumstances. Definately each situation will be different but we all need to have in our game plan on calling an emergency number and being a good witness!


 
Especially if you are not a first hand witness to the event taking place.  Johnny come lately's have always caused me and my co-workers problems also even now in my present career field.


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