# USA should not be in haiti



## DeLamar.J (Feb 15, 2010)

Before i get flamed, at least hear me out. We have people in the USA who are homeless, losing there homes, not getting proper medical care, ect ect if your here you know whats going on in our economy. 
Before we reach out to help others, shouldn't we at least make sure that every AMERICAN has the help they need? We have people struggling in our country and we go to another country and drop millions? If you want to help, go to down town cleveland and help some of the starving homeless people there, why do americans feel the need to travel to another place to help people when OUR OWN need help. I don't understand it and it annoys the hell out of me.


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## Omar B (Feb 15, 2010)

So what you're saying is, in times of crisis where minutes, hours and days means more life lost we should stay out.  Sure.


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## DeLamar.J (Feb 15, 2010)

No, what I'm saying is, why are we not helping own own struggling people? Why fly to another place when there are people in your community that are in need of help. 
If you want to do good things for people, get in your car and drive down the street, I'm positive there is a struggling family close by. We are having issues in our own country that should be resolved before we go spending millions on other non americans.


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## Omar B (Feb 15, 2010)

Because Cleavland, Ohio or down the street was not hit with a series of earthquakes and those people have not had their whole life, all their possessions and their loved ones crushed by debris.  The people in Cleavland, Ohio or down the street still live in a country with working infrastructure, where as in Haiti the ability to feed, water or medically help itself has been crippled.


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## DeLamar.J (Feb 15, 2010)

There are hard working americans who need help, who contribute to the government by paying taxes. What does haiti contribute? nothing. They take, take, and take some more. They contribute nothing to us and take much. 
But on the other hand, we have american tax payers, who contribute everyday, and struggle, lose there homes, and pay tax to help....guess who, haiti.


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2010)

DeLamar.J said:


> No, what I'm saying is, why are we not helping own own struggling people? Why fly to another place when there are people in your community that are in need of help.
> If you want to do good things for people, get in your car and drive down the street, I'm positive there is a struggling family close by. We are having issues in our own country that should be resolved before we go spending millions on other non americans.


 
Ok we'll remember that next time you have a disaster like Hurricane Katrina and we all sent help..

You may wish to look at some of the reasons Haiti is so poor and the involvement of America in keeping it that way. Have a look at 'sugar' and sugar tariffs etc. Also look up the 19 year Military Occupation of Haiti by the Americans. Then move onto the CIA involvement in the 80s with drugs, corruption etc. 
Perhaps you should have kept and stayed out of Haiti's business a long long time ago and they wouldn't have needed so much help now.


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## Omar B (Feb 15, 2010)

So you wish to not help anyone because they are from another country and don't pay taxes here.  I guess all the other countries helping Haiti should pull up and leave too.  Same way they they pulled out and left New Orleans after Katrina ... oh wait, other countries actually helped then too.

I'm quite sure that picking up leaving them without electricity, running water, communication, roads, hospitals won't result in thousands more catastrophic death.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Ok we'll remember that next time you have a disaster like Hurricane Katrina and we all sent help..
> 
> You may wish to look at some of the reasons Haiti is so poor and the involvement of America in keeping it that way. Have a look at 'sugar' and sugar tariffs etc. Also look up the 19 year Military Occupation of Haiti by the Americans. Then move onto the CIA involvement in the 80s with drugs, corruption etc.
> Perhaps you should have kept and stayed out of Haiti's business a long long time ago and they wouldn't have needed so much help now.


 
Plus lets not forget the Canadian forest firefighters who cross the border every season to help battle fires, or the Canadian coast guard who rescues American sailors, or any number of other cross border help that goes on.

You're either part of the world or you're not. I understand what you're saying, I really do, but if you want to be involved in the world, you're either all in or youre not. If you choose an isolationist policy then you need to live with the consequences, that means hundreds of billions in trade drying up, millions more unemployed, amongst other things. 

There are choices to be made. The argument can be made that if the $$ that goes into a weeks worth of US military spending were spent on the poor and helpless, the US would be all the better for it.


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## Omar B (Feb 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Ok we'll remember that next time you have a disaster like Hurricane Katrina and we all sent help..
> 
> You may wish to look at some of the reasons Haiti is so poor and the involvement of America in keeping it that way. Have a look at 'sugar' and sugar tariffs etc. Also look up the 19 year Military Occupation of Haiti by the Americans. Then move onto the CIA involvement in the 80s with drugs, corruption etc.
> Perhaps you should have kept and stayed out of Haiti's business a long long time ago and they wouldn't have needed so much help now.



You forgot to mention the CIA's ousting of Haiti's elected president _Jean_-_Bertrand Aristide_ because he wasn't going to go along with business as usual with the US military occupation.  The man had to run away from his own country in the middle of the night and hide out in Jamaica from CIA hitmen.  Of course you'll never hear about CIA hitmen trying to kill the president (and Roman Catholic Priest) of a 3rd world country and him having to hide in other countries while the US installs yet another puppet.  Gotta love watching that news in the US.


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## JDenver (Feb 15, 2010)

This style of argument is really a paper tiger.

It's great that you feel strongly about helping Americans, but don't be so callously isolationist about things.  Be a human being ahead of being an American.  For example, what if I told you that your country, the wealthiest in the world, doesn't even hit spending .7% of GDP in other countries?  That only leaves a puny 99.3% spending of American money in America.

In fact, you could solve all of America's social problems.  Stop building roads.  Curb your military spending.  No funding for schools or hospitals, funnel it to other areas.  Put a cap on income levels or tax the wealthiest 2% above 50% and refunnel that money.  That would solve it.  Being in Haiti has almost nothing to do with it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2010)

DeLamar.J said:


> There are hard working americans who need help, who contribute to the government by paying taxes. What does haiti contribute? nothing. They take, take, and take some more. They contribute nothing to us and take much.
> But on the other hand, we have american tax payers, who contribute everyday, and struggle, lose there homes, and pay tax to help....guess who, haiti.


 
I think you'll find America has had more than it's pound of flesh out of Haiti, time to give something back I'd say. You owe them mate, you owe them. Open your eyes and learn your history.


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## Omar B (Feb 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think you'll find America has had more than it's pound of flesh out of Haiti, time to give something back I'd say. You owe them mate, you owe them. Open your eyes and learn your history.



Quite true Tez, though I was taking the issue from a stopping the loss of life where you can standpoint.  There's the side that I didn't think about till you posted, the US's interference in other countries that is never go reported.  

Luckily I've got a different perspective being born in another country.  Like why were there US military bases and airfields dotting Jamaica.  My father grew up next to one that was on no map called Camp Hill, when the US shut down operations there the government the name to Kemp's Hill and now it shows up on maps!  Or the airfield named Vernam Field close to Camp Hill where American planes came in all day and night flying out of Jamaica to observe Cuba, my father grew up watching this and spending time at my grandparents homes I've seen this for myself.


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2010)

Like it or not America has interfered in a lot of countries politics and civil disputes, always for America's good, never for the natives of that country.
Britian has done it's fair share in the past of messing around with countries but not for a very long time now and anyway I'm not the person whinging about my country saving lives in another. We sent help, rescue teams, money, help etc and I've never heard anyone say we shouldn't have done it. Here even the children fund raised to save people poorer than themselves.
Haiti has a very sad history, left to itself perhaps it wouldn't be as poor as it is now, it certainly didn't start as a poor country.


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 15, 2010)

Ask the mayor of Cleveland if hed really like the US Army to take over police work in his city, declare martial law, and so on.


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## Marginal (Feb 15, 2010)

DeLamar.J said:


> Before i get flamed, at least hear me out. We have people in the USA who are homeless, losing there homes, not getting proper medical care, ect ect if your here you know whats going on in our economy.
> Before we reach out to help others, shouldn't we at least make sure that every AMERICAN has the help they need? We have people struggling in our country and we go to another country and drop millions? If you want to help, go to down town cleveland and help some of the starving homeless people there, why do americans feel the need to travel to another place to help people when OUR OWN need help. I don't understand it and it annoys the hell out of me.


If you want an equally cold rationale, if you don't help them there, then they'll probably flee their country creating more sour illegal immigrant threads.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 15, 2010)

DeLamar.J said:


> Before i get flamed, at least hear me out. We have people in the USA who are homeless, losing there homes, not getting proper medical care, ect ect if your here you know whats going on in our economy.
> Before we reach out to help others, shouldn't we at least make sure that every AMERICAN has the help they need? We have people struggling in our country and we go to another country and drop millions? If you want to help, go to down town cleveland and help some of the starving homeless people there, why do americans feel the need to travel to another place to help people when OUR OWN need help. I don't understand it and it annoys the hell out of me.


Our poorest live better than 98% them!
Sean


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## Blade96 (Feb 15, 2010)

DeLamar.J said:


> Before i get flamed, at least hear me out. We have people in the USA who are homeless, losing there homes, not getting proper medical care, ect ect if your here you know whats going on in our economy.
> Before we reach out to help others, shouldn't we at least make sure that every AMERICAN has the help they need? We have people struggling in our country and we go to another country and drop millions? If you want to help, go to down town cleveland and help some of the starving homeless people there, why do americans feel the need to travel to another place to help people when OUR OWN need help. I don't understand it and it annoys the hell out of me.


 
I think this little fella has his heart in the right place. He wants to help people in his own country. Well and good. go for it. BUT......



Omar B said:


> Because Cleavland, Ohio or down the street was not hit with a series of earthquakes and those people have not had their whole life, all their possessions and their loved ones crushed by debris. The people in Cleavland, Ohio or down the street still live in a country with working infrastructure, where as in Haiti the ability to feed, water or medically help itself has been crippled.


 
......I was gonna say this. DeLamar, your country wasnt the one hit with some ungodly huge freakin earthquake at the beginning of 2010 that killed at least 200,000 qand injured how many more.

and if you were, we would help you.


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## David43515 (Feb 15, 2010)

I think it`s just a matter of perspective. Like someone mentioned earlier, Cleveland or any other city in the US has a functioning infrastructure. Yeah we have people who are out of work and on the streets, but we have lots of people here helping them. We have government agencies and private volunteer groups that are there to support them and try to get them the help they need, so that eventually most of them have a fighting chance to pull themselves up by thier bootsraps and get back into the race with the rest of us.

in Haiti, all that support structure was gone overnight. Everyone was homeless. There was no fresh water, no supermarket, no hospital for the survivors. And there was no organized govt effort to help search the rubble for the living, because the people in the govt were just as bad off as everyone else.

It kind of harkens back to FDR`s explaination of the lend lease program before we entered WWII. If your neighbor`s house is on fire, and you have a hose you let them borrow it. In this case they`re too busy fighting the fire to come and get it, so you turn on the water yourself and try to lend a hand where you can. 

What you don`t do it say "I`ve got to finish fixing my leaky roof first."


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## Thesemindz (Feb 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think you'll find America has had more than it's pound of flesh out of Haiti, time to give something back I'd say. You owe them mate, you owe them. Open your eyes and learn your history.



Easy there Tez.

I don't owe them anything. I didn't do anything to them in the first place. Others may have in my name, but it was either without my knowledge or against my express wishes. I can't be held responsible for evil done by others.

You want to help Haiti with your own money, feel free. In fact I think that's admirable and commendable. But you can not attach moral value to actions taken under duress.

The government money which has gone to the legitimate victims of both foreign and domestic state oppression and natural disasters was itself extracted from private citizens at the point of a sword. This doesn't make things "squaresies," it simply further spreads violence.

If you want to feel good about helping others, encourage people to give, not to take.


-Rob


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 15, 2010)

I really don't understand the mentality of keeping, Cuba, Haiti, Central, and South America Dirt poor. Can't we give eachother a hand up instead of isolating ourselves from the rest of the world? If we did go ahead and let millions die and suffer after a tragedy, most people will cross the street to avoid giving money to a homeless guy for beer.
Sean


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## Thesemindz (Feb 16, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> I really don't understand the mentality of keeping, Cuba, Haiti, Central, and South America Dirt poor. Can't we give eachother a hand up instead of isolating ourselves from the rest of the world? If we did go ahead and let millions die and suffer after a tragedy, most people will cross the street to avoid giving money to a homeless guy for beer.
> Sean



It's really very simple.

Their governments have a vested interest in keeping them poor so that the people who run those governments can make fortunes in graft off foreign aid. Our government has a vested interest in keeping them poor because they can use them as a justification for taxation to fund foreign aid, which they will also make fortunes supplying.

The people of those countries don't want to be poor, and we don't want them poor, but we don't get a say.

These things don't happen by accident. Look at Mexico, or most of Africa, or Asia, or most of Europe and Russia. These places are filled with natural resources, yet their dirt poor. 

It's by design.


-Rob


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2010)

Thesemindz said:


> Easy there Tez.
> 
> I don't owe them anything. I didn't do anything to them in the first place. Others may have in my name, but it was either without my knowledge or against my express wishes. I can't be held responsible for evil done by others.
> 
> ...


 
Yes but you aren't the one whinging so it wasn't aimed at you was it?


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## CoryKS (Feb 16, 2010)

DeLamar.J said:


> No, what I'm saying is, why are we not helping own own struggling people? Why fly to another place when there are people in your community that are in need of help.
> If you want to do good things for people, get in your car and drive down the street, I'm positive there is a struggling family close by. We are having issues in our own country that should be resolved before we go spending millions on other non americans.


 
You need to be more clear on what the problem is rather than vaguely lumping poor Americans and Haitian earthquake victims together as "struggling people".  

The Americans you refer to struggle for a number of reasons which may include one or more of the following: physical disability, mental illness, drug addiction, poor education, local economic downturn, bad personal choices, or just plain old dumb luck.  Because there is a multitude of problems to be addressed, a couple million dollars is not going to make much of an impact.  We know this because quite a few million dollars in the form of taxpayer money and charitable contributions _are_ being used to tackle these issues, and have been for many years.  Now, it may be possible that those millions that were sent to Haiti might have been the crucial expenditure that would have finally brought resolution to all these problems after all these years.  I have my doubts.

The Haitians may have a segment of the population with the same problems listed above.  We are not addressing that.  Relief to Haiti is addressing the problem that their entire infrastructure was wiped out, and that money is going toward fixing basic things like water supply and hospitals.  This will help a lot more people, more directly and more efficiently than anything that could be done for the people in this country that you are referring to.

The argument that "we shouldn't waste money on _____ when we have so much ________" has been used many times by people who have a project that is close to their hearts.  Why spend money on AIDS research while people are dying of breast cancer?  Why spend money on breast cancer while heart disease is on the rise?  The point is that there are finite resources that can be brought to bear against an infinite number of problems.  Somebody's always going to have a different opinion on where the money is best spent.  If you feel so strongly about the plight of your fellow Americans, you are welcome to use your resources to help them.  I would recommend the United Way.


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## punisher73 (Feb 16, 2010)

Hmmmm..interesting idea and concept.  I don't think the debate should be whether or not we should help out another country like Haiti in time of great need.  I think we should because it's the right thing to do, all politics aside.

My problem lies in that Americans (talking private citizens here not gov't) are more than happy to throw a few extra dollars here and there in places like Haiti because they feel bad about what happened and it makes them feel good, but take no part to relieve the suffering at their own doorstep by donating time or money to help out their fellow neighbors.

To me that is frustrating.  A tragedy happens in another country and many people trample over the homeless person at their doorstep to put their money in the mail and then brag about how good they are and how they helped out.  All the while never sacrificing of themselves, only giving out of their excess.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 16, 2010)

DeLamarJ, you brought up a very good discussion and I've pondered this myself for many years over many disasters and situations. 
Having been among the homeless, poor, destitute in America and then climbing my back outta that hole (more than once) and then sitting quietly in a nice warm house/apartment, safe, secure, food in the fridge and pantry and a decent (minimum) wage job and all that... reading how we are $ending million$ to Africa, Asia and all those other countries (3rd World) and asking the same question... why? Why when we are in need here.
Omar and the others gave great answers and I'll not knock them at all. 

In a lot of ways America is obligated to help out, and to see that just go to a very crowded area and sit and watch people for a little while... Look at the immense diversity of that crowd. Think of how many ancestral countries are represented. Think about how much work their grandfathers and grandmothers and great-grandparents and so on had put in to make this country? They could've stayed in their own home country and put in the amount of effort. 
Chances are they'd have different results because of the level of freedoms by comparison. 
Either way we send help because we can, because they can't. 
The people are now still in need and they're praying and praying hard as this particular essay shows... one month after the earthquake. 
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/photos/2010/02/haiti-one-month-after-the-eart.html
If anything think about the children getting stuck in the middle of all of it.

There's poor all over the world... this photo essay shows one other tiny little corner that is really suffering...  http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/photos/2010/02/poverty-in-cambodia.html 
If anything... think about the children getting stuck in the middle of all of that.

:asian:


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2010)

There is no reason why people can't help at home and overseas, often what's needed to help people in your own country is spending time and effort rather than just throwing money at a charity. Money is easiest for overseas charities for many reasons in times of disaster such. Governments and official bodies can send out relief teams such as the search and rescue people.
Helping people at home can take many forms, charities often find it hard to find volunteers to help in many different ways, it could be as simple as doing the paperwork for them, filing etc or it could be campaigning and lobbying political bodies, working in charity shops, teaching people to read and write, there's a very long list. sometimes money isn't just whats needed, its human beings on the ground doing their best. It's not someone elses job to help, it's everyone's country so everyone should be doing their bit.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 16, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> DeLamarJ, you brought up a very good discussion and I've pondered this myself for many years over many disasters and situations.
> Having been among the homeless, poor, destitute in America and then climbing my back outta that hole (more than once) and then sitting quietly in a nice warm house/apartment, safe, secure, food in the fridge and pantry and a decent (minimum) wage job and all that... reading how we are $ending million$ to Africa, Asia and all those other countries (3rd World) and asking the same question... why? Why when we are in need here.
> Omar and the others gave great answers and I'll not knock them at all.
> 
> ...


The United States just happens to be a place where if you really make a few personal changes you can pull yourself out of poverty; in Haiti, you got no chance.
sean


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 16, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> The United States just happens to be a place where if you really make a few personal changes you can pull yourself out of poverty; in Haiti, you got no chance.
> sean



As much as I admire the USA for many things it does well, I'd have to say the above is a bit of an over-statement. I don't know of any place where pulling oneself out of poverty is anything but really hard work. It can be done in the USA; I'd say it's bloody unlikely in Haiti.

The OP asks specifically why resources should be expended in Haiti and not the USA, which has invited criticism of US international policy. I'm sure, in reality, that people in all countries pose this same question.

Helping people in Haiti and helping people in the US are two different things. The US and others are helping Haitians because they are living amongst rubble without potable water, sanitation, food or shelter. The reason for helping people who are in that situation is that if you don't, you're kind of being a dick.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 16, 2010)

The whole thing is simple. There's no need for a political debate. People are dying, children are parentless, the infrastructure is destroyed. It is not our duty as Brits or Canadians or Americans to help. It is our duty as HUMAN BEINGS. This is not a time for politics or political debates. It's a time to act. It annoys me no end to here people gripe about helping an already poor nation who have literally lost everything. Of course we have our problems here, but we have the means to deal with those problems. The Haitians don't.


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 16, 2010)

yorkshirelad said:


> it is our duty as human beings.



qft


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## xJOHNx (Feb 16, 2010)

yorkshirelad said:


> The whole thing is simple. There's no need for a political debate. People are dying, children are parentless, the infrastructure is destroyed. It is not our duty as Brits or Canadians or Americans to help. It is our duty as HUMAN BEINGS. This is not a time for politics or political debates. It's a time to act. It annoys me no end to here people gripe about helping an already poor nation who have literally lost everything. Of course we have our problems here, but we have the means to deal with those problems. The Haitians don't.


Best post in this topic.
Overhere, the number of events dedicated to Haiti (by young people) are uncountable. I like it, it shows that even in this modern day and age, youngsters still have some common sense to help out and forget about their own worries. 
The B-fast team was there within 24 hours of the disaster. Doctors from the university hospital (especially nefrologists) go there on their own initiative to help people with the crush-syndrome.

Never heard anyone complain about it. We expect it from our govt.

And not to bash you original poster, but don't you find your own signature a bit ironic? Besides, helping the people in your own neighbourhood/town is easier than helping overthere. Start a People'sKitchen or a Food Not Bombs. You'll probably help the poor more than by handing them money.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 16, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> And not to bash you original poster, but don't you find your own signature a bit ironic?


 
I've only just noticed that.......ironic indeed


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## CoryKS (Feb 16, 2010)

It's bad enough that people feel compelled to preach to others regarding their charitable "duties", as if it wasn't a personal issue that has nothing to do with them. It's disgusting, quite frankly, to listen to people complain that you're helping the _wrong_ people.


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## Stac3y (Feb 17, 2010)

ken morgan said:


> there are choices to be made. The argument can be made that if the $$ that goes into a weeks worth of us military spending were spent on the poor and helpless, the us would be all the better for it.


 
qft


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## MJS (Feb 17, 2010)

This has been the topic of debate with a few people that I work with.  Some are of the mind that we should help, others feel that we should worry about the issues in our country.  Some are probably looking at it like, "Well, when 9-11 happened, how many of these places that we often help, came to help us?"  Difference is, which has already been pointed out, is that these places dont have anything, so how can you give, when you dont have it to give?  

I gave a contribution when I was asked at the grocery store.  The clerk asked if I wanted to donate, so I gave $5.  When 9-11 happened, the job I was working at, at the time, had a big collection, and I donated.  I'm not going to go crazy, donating things, but I gave something, and IMO, its the thought that counts.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 17, 2010)

MJS said:


> Some are probably looking at it like, "Well, when 9-11 happened, how many of these places that we often help, came to help us?"


 
Many countries helped with 9/11. I remember seeing Canadian covoys on the news. Same with Katrina, many helped.

But you're right, most of the places that need the aid, can't give it back, as they are just too poor.

So that asks the question, are you being nice only to get something in return, or because its the right thing to do?


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## MJS (Feb 17, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Many countries helped with 9/11. I remember seeing Canadian covoys on the news. Same with Katrina, many helped.


 
Just for clarification, that wasn't my opinion, but the opinion that I've heard from others, who've been in my company, when discussions like this surface.




> So that asks the question, are you being nice only to get something in return, or because its the right thing to do?


 
I'm not concerned about getting something in return.  I do it because, as you said, its the right thing.  Just prior to Christmas, my wife and I, along with my sister and brother in law, made our yearly trip to NYC.  We drive to New Haven, CT., park and take the train.  Upon our return, it was late, probably close to 11pm.  The garage we park in, is a bit of a walk from the train station.  So, as we're walking, this woman comes up from behind, calling to us.  We all stop and turn to see what she wanted.  She went on to say that her mother was sick and in the hospital in NY, and she was trying to get money for a ticket so she could see her.  Now, 98% of me started to call BS on this, but the 2% was thinking...and hoping, and it was for real.  My wife proceeded to go into her purse to get some cash.  Of course, while she's doing this, I'm keeping an eye on the lady, as well as the 2 males who were standing outside of a nearby apt. building.  Who knows...in that area, it could've been a set up. 

So, she gives her $10, the woman thanks us, and the 4 of us continue to the parking garage.  We did our good deed for the day, and hopefully the money was put to good use.  I could have easily told her that she was getting nothing from us, and kept on walking.  

There have been other times, when I've witnessed homeless people digging thru the trash, looking for food.  The sight of that made me sick, and I began to stand up, as I was going to approach the person, and offer to buy them a hot meal.  Before I had the chance, the lady grabbed a few trays of half eaten food, and ran off.  Again, it was the thought that counts.  This incident took place while we were in Macys, sitting down, taking a quick break from all the walking.  

Sorry for the rant here.   My point was simply that I have, many times, given money or helped those less fortunate.  I'm not looking for any recognition, a medal or to have the red carpet rolled out.  I simply do it, because I wanted to.


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## Grenadier (Feb 17, 2010)

In the end, we are all God's children, and we should be helping one another.  I see no problem sending aid to a nation that is unable to help itself for now.  

At the same time, though, God also helps those who help themselves.  If Haiti doesn't stabilize itself, it will continue going through one coup after another, and the situation will never improve.  



Tez3 said:


> Like it or not America has interfered in a lot of countries politics and civil disputes, always for America's good, never for the natives of that country.


 
Bash America for its involvement with Haiti? As if the country hadn't been interfered with previously? 

Let's take a look at history:

15th - 16th century Spain essentially conquers the area, sucking the area dry of valuables, while also forcing their beliefs onto the people. Forced conversion to Catholicism was quite common. Also, don't forget about the "gift" of smallpox and the enslaving of the uncooperative natives.

18th century France exploits the area for its resources, and also keeps the population enslaved. France grows rich, while the natives remain dirt poor, and in decrepit conditions. 

19th century France makes an attempt to conquer the island again, essentially extorting money from the gov't of Haiti.

19th century Germany supports the suppression of reform movements. 

Early 20th century USA occupies Haiti, and in their evil conquering ways, created many miles of highways and bridges, along with a very good water structure. As a result, Haiti had a pretty good economy. 

The occupationalist US leaves Haiti in 1937. 




> Haiti has a very sad history, left to itself perhaps it wouldn't be as poor as it is now, it certainly didn't start as a poor country.


 
It was transformed from a poor country to a better one because of US involvement.


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 17, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> So that asks the question, are you being nice only to get something in return, or because its the right thing to do?


 
I answer this with some trepidation, as I know very little about Haiti. Are Haitians not now trying to help each other through a difficult time -- sharing food or other resources with neighbours? Have they not aided in rescue and recovery? There are other ways that people give back.

During the 1930s people on the Canadian Prairies, where my father grew up, had to contend with The Great Depression and protracted droughts that led to crop failures -- fields of wheat turned to dust. In an era when no one had any money, help came from an unexpected source.

The people of Newfoundland -- during this time a British Protectorate, not a Province of Canada -- bundled up what they could: goods canned at home, fish, blankets. They sent it west to help their neighbours.

Decades later, when the Newfoundland and Labrador were stuggling without power or water during an ice storm, a pairie phmaracist who had heard the stories of eastern generosity from his parents and grandparents, organized a mission to send supplies to the rock. 

In much the same fashion, I was very moved by the scene in _Sicko_ where the 9/11 first responders met with Cuban firefighters. The Cuban first responders spoke of how they wished they could have to the aid of their colleagues in NYC. I don't think it was propaganda -- just good people wanting to do right by eachother.

After all the mess that Haiti has seen over the years, I hope that my reward as a Canadian for contributing to the effort is that Haitians can live decently and in safety.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 17, 2010)

MJS said:


> My point was simply that I have, many times, given money or helped those less fortunate. I'm not looking for any recognition, a medal or to have the red carpet rolled out. I simply do it, because I wanted to.


 
and your country and the world is a better place for what you've done. :asian:


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## Carol (Feb 18, 2010)

You can always support Martial Talk....just sayin' :idunno:


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## Phoenix44 (Feb 18, 2010)

They're human beings for cryin' out loud.  They had nothing before the quake, now they have less than nothing.

And yes, I do believe we should also help our fellow Americans.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 18, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think you'll find America has had more than it's pound of flesh out of Haiti, time to give something back I'd say. You owe them mate, you owe them. Open your eyes and learn your history.


 
sorry Tez but this quote is crap. We do not Owe anyone anything.

I for one do not agree with the original poster.
I am all for having us go in and help immediately in disasters such as this so that the initial loss of life is not turned into a monumentally larger loss of life, culture, and family in the area..
I have no problems sending our nuclear powered ships down there to provide power for the nation to get back on its feet, to use the desal plant on the ship to provide safe water for the survivors, to supply tents in quantity to provide immediate shelter for those displaced, basic food supplies, medical supplies, and professionals to help mend the wounded, and prevent any further disaster from spreading.
What I am completely against, is spending hundreds of millions, or billions of our tax dollars to rebuild the city from the ground up, or the infrastructures from the ground up. That should all be handled by the Haitian government and awarded as contracts to whoever they choose to do it. We do not owe anyone anything, we can choose to be compassionate world neighbors and help immediately in a crisis like this at our own cost, and have our citizens donate millions more in private charity funding, and millions more then the rest of the world combined at that... I have no problem with people choosing how to be charitable, and I encourage it, however the comments about us Owing anyone else disgust me, and make me want to just say fine, do it yourself.

as for out own problems, I am sorry but I believe in the saying, help those that help themselves. Our country was not founded on the basis of everyone having the right to everything.... nowhere in our constitution does it say you have the right to a publicly funded house, or publicly funded medicine, or publicly funded food. Sure people need a hand time to time, but it seems to many people think that its a right and that working hard itself is an optional endeavor.


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## blindsage (Feb 18, 2010)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> as for out own problems, I am sorry but I believe in the saying, help those that help themselves. Our country was not founded on the basis of everyone having the right to everything.... nowhere in our constitution does it say you have the right to a publicly funded house, or publicly funded medicine, or publicly funded food. Sure people need a hand time to time, but it seems to many people think that its a right and that working hard itself is an optional endeavor.


I had originally written a longer response to this, but in an attempt to not derail this thread I will just leave it at-  your philosophy sounds good, not based in historical reality, but it sounds good.


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 18, 2010)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> as for out own problems, *I am sorry but I believe in the saying, help those that help themselves. Our country was not founded on the basis of everyone having the right to everything.... nowhere in our constitution does it say you have the right to a publicly funded house, or publicly funded medicine, or publicly funded food.* Sure people need a hand time to time, but it seems to many people think that its a right and that working hard itself is an optional endeavor.



I keep hearing this 'help those who help themselves,' and I don't have the first bloody clue how it applies to the people of Haiti. There's no evidence to show that Haitians don't work -- day-to-day survival is hard work. Haitians have been doing that long before this earthquake. What we have here is an impoverished people with few opportunities and probably low educational attainment and literacy. Bootstrapping lectures are fine for people who actually have bootstraps to pull themselves up by.

The US Constitution, I'm sure, says nothing about supporting Haiti. Neither does the Canadian Constitution say anything about it. And while you're sending ships to provide power -- good on you, BTW -- we just popped for the cost of rebuilding government offices. Why? Because our Constitutions have nothing to do with the fact that good people in Canada, the USA and elsewhere understand a moral imperative to help neighbours in their darkest time.

Will there be a tipping point? Sure. I'm happy to see the good that's being done for Haiti, and I expect my government to hold the Haitian gov't's feet to the fire if necessary and make sure they don't treat the federal coffers like a personal piggy bank.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 18, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> I keep hearing this 'help those who help themselves,' and I don't have the first bloody clue how it applies to the people of Haiti. There's no evidence to show that Haitians don't work -- day-to-day survival is hard work. Haitians have been doing that long before this earthquake. What we have here is an impoverished people with few opportunities and probably low educational attainment and literacy. Bootstrapping lectures are fine for people who actually have bootstraps to pull themselves up by.
> 
> The US Constitution, I'm sure, says nothing about supporting Haiti. Neither does the Canadian Constitution say anything about it. And while you're sending ships to provide power -- good on you, BTW -- we just popped for the cost of rebuilding government offices. Why? Because our Constitutions have nothing to do with the fact that good people in Canada, the USA and elsewhere understand a moral imperative to help neighbours in their darkest time.
> 
> Will there be a tipping point? Sure. I'm happy to see the good that's being done for Haiti, and I expect my government to hold the Haitian gov't's feet to the fire if necessary and make sure they don't treat the federal coffers like a personal piggy bank.


 
well I probably did not make it as clear as I could have, but the text you bolded had nothing to do with haiti... it had to do with the comment of helping all of our own homeless before we help other people..
like I said I have no problem with going over and taking care of the immediate needs so no further deaths or seperations of the people happen. The rest of the long term needs to be decided upon by the Haitian government and awarded out as contracts to whatever international contractors they choose. 

and while you pledged to pay for the cost of rebuilding the government offices, I will not bother holding my breath for it... the rest of the world has been horrible in actually coming through with what they pledge when it comes to this kind of thing historically.... of course the United States has almost always come through with what they pledged or more, much of the rest of the world wants to say they are going to pay, then stall and stall, and eventually just drop giving what they pledged if at all.
So you will have to forgive me if I wait to see it to believe it...


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## Big Don (Feb 18, 2010)

IIRC, the American people, gave and give more to charities of all stripes, than the government does.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 18, 2010)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> well I probably did not make it as clear as I could have, but the text you bolded had nothing to do with haiti... it had to do with the comment of helping all of our own homeless before we help other people..
> like I said I have no problem with going over and taking care of the immediate needs so no further deaths or seperations of the people happen. The rest of the long term needs to be decided upon by the Haitian government and awarded out as contracts to whatever international contractors they choose.
> 
> and while you pledged to pay for the cost of rebuilding the government offices, I will not bother holding my breath for it... the rest of the world has been horrible in actually coming through with what they pledge when it comes to this kind of thing historically.... of course the United States has almost always come through with what they pledged or more, much of the rest of the world wants to say they are going to pay, then stall and stall, and eventually just drop giving what they pledged if at all.
> So you will have to forgive me if I wait to see it to believe it...


 
I agree with your first part completly. QFT.

But let me understand your second part properly. Are you saying that the rest of the worlds governments talk, and talk, makes promises and no one but the US follows through on their foreign aid promises?


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 18, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I agree with your first part completly. QFT.
> 
> But let me understand your second part properly. Are you saying that the rest of the worlds governments talk, and talk, makes promises and no one but the US follows through on their foreign aid promises?


 
No not in whole, go look up the numbers for international disasters over the last 20 years, look what countries pledged, and what they actually delivered... a few overdelivered, the vast majority did not even come close to delivering what they pledged. There are all kinds of claims as to why this happens, the one I happen to believe is that in the initial aftermath the worlds leaders get into the Ebay mode.... where they get caught up in the excitement and spirit and make pledges to feel good, sound good, and look good to the rest of the world.... Sure I am sure they want to help, but if they were honest, they would give whatg they pledged in the first place.


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 18, 2010)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> ...and while you pledged to pay for the cost of rebuilding the government offices, I will not bother holding my breath for it...



Dude, no need to hold breath. I'm not extolling the virtues of the Canadian gov't by any stretch. This is part of a longer term commitment to Haiti. It's gonna happen. It is happening. I'm just passing along info.



> *Canada* to help house *Haitian government*
> 
> Toronto Sun - Kathleen Harris - &#8206;Feb 15, 2010&#8206;
> *Canada* will continue to support the *Haitian government* as it moves forward with its reconstruction and development agenda. The base will allow the *Haitian* *...*
> ...



As Ken knows, I'm no supporter of the Harper gov't. In this case, we have our most conservative party leader doing what every other leader would do at a time when he needs all the good karma he can get. It's a no-brainer.

Besides, $12 million is petty cash. An expenditure of that size goes under "miscellaneous" on a budget sheet.


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 18, 2010)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> well I probably did not make it as clear as I could have, but the text you bolded had nothing to do with haiti... it had to do with the comment of helping all of our own homeless before we help other people..



Thanks for the clarification. I mistook your meaning.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 18, 2010)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> No not in whole, go look up the numbers for international disasters over the last 20 years, look what countries pledged, and what they actually delivered... a few overdelivered, the vast majority did not even come close to delivering what they pledged. There are all kinds of claims as to why this happens, the one I happen to believe is that in the initial aftermath the worlds leaders get into the Ebay mode.... where they get caught up in the excitement and spirit and make pledges to feel good, sound good, and look good to the rest of the world.... Sure I am sure they want to help, but if they were honest, they would give whatg they pledged in the first place.


 
Sounds fair. Is there a website that has them all listed?


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 18, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> Dude, no need to hold breath. I'm not extolling the virtues of the Canadian gov't by any stretch. This is part of a longer term commitment to Haiti. It's gonna happen. It is happening. I'm just passing along info.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
And that doesn't count what the Canadian people are donating, which in turn is being matched by the government.

Gord he's doing it because it needs to be done and its the right thing to do, not to gain karma. But if you gain some by doing it, so be it.


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 18, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Gord he's doing it because it needs to be done and its the right thing to do, not to gain karma. But if you gain some by doing it, so be it.



Quite so, Ken. I had a partisan brain fart. Thanks for summoning me back to my senses.

I think the intent is valid too, and I believe any Canadian leader of any mainstream party would be making the same pledge. Let me put it this way -- to reverse this plan, which clearly has popular support, and which cannot be challenged by the opposition, would not only be immoral, it would invite bad karma.

I don't think Harper or any of his opponents is that callous or stupid.


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## DeLamar.J (Feb 19, 2010)

My problem, if you choose to call it that, is that I need to be personally vested in the situation. So, if I know someone who is in need, or see it with my own eyes, I'm all about helping out if I have the resources to do so. 
Also, I am very partial to my own people, and by that I mean americans. 
For those who are confused by my sig, I admit that it can be kind of misleading, but to me my sig is talking about my country. It means I'm all for helping out my fellow americans FIRST. It means I wont descriminate against a feloow american based on there religion, race, ect ect.


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## blindsage (Feb 19, 2010)

DeLamar.J said:


> My problem, if you choose to call it that, is that I need to be personally vested in the situation. So, if I know someone who is in need, or see it with my own eyes, I'm all about helping out if I have the resources to do so.
> Also, I am very partial to my own people, and by that I mean americans.
> For those who are confused by my sig, I admit that it can be kind of misleading, but to me my sig is talking about my country. It means I'm all for helping out my fellow americans FIRST. It means I wont descriminate against a feloow american based on there religion, race, ect ect.


Will you only help your fellow Americans _after_ the people of your state? Will you only help your fellow statespeople _after _you help the people of your city? Will you only help your fellow city dwellers _after_ you help the people on your block? Why would you ever help anybody outside your family? Nationalism on these issues is poor logic.


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