# What kinds of KMA practitioners do we have here these days?



## SahBumNimRush

Since I've been gone a while, and just to inject some new discussions into a stagnant forum.. .

What kinds of Korean martial arts do you all practice.  If it is some version of TKD, what "style/association" do you belong to?  

I'm curious if there are any practitioners of the "older" stylings of TKD that are not affiliated with KKW or ITF.

For those of you who do not know me on here, I practice Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo (i.e. my KJN was part of the MDK prior to the unification, went with the unification, left Korea in the late 60's, opened up shop in the U.S. and still teaches the same curriculum that has since that time).  We practice the old form sets (Gicho hyungs, Pyung Ahn hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.)


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## Xue Sheng

Well I guess we let the CMA guy start off.

I use to be a KMA guy, many years ago, but I have no idea what version, it was pre-Olympic and with Jae Hun Kim in Boston.


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## Dirty Dog

SahBumNimRush said:


> Since I've been gone a while, and just to inject some new discussions into a stagnant forum.. .
> 
> What kinds of Korean martial arts do you all practice.  If it is some version of TKD, what "style/association" do you belong to?
> 
> I'm curious if there are any practitioners of the "older" stylings of TKD that are not affiliated with KKW or ITF.
> 
> For those of you who do not know me on here, I practice Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo (i.e. my KJN was part of the MDK prior to the unification, went with the unification, left Korea in the late 60's, opened up shop in the U.S. and still teaches the same curriculum that has since that time).  We practice the old form sets (Gicho hyungs, Pyung Ahn hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.)



So it's called Tae Kwon Do but you teach the Tang Soo Do curriculum? Is that because TKD has more name recognition, or to avoid conflicts (and if history is any indication, law suites...) from the MDK Soo Bahk Do people? The Palgwae forms were introduced in (if memory serves...) 1965, so as part of the unified system, your KJN would probably have learned them prior to emigrating.

Our KJN was a direct student of GM HWANG, Kee prior to the unification, stayed with the unification as a direct student of GM LEE, Kang-Ik, and came to the USA in 1969. 
We teach MDK TKD using the Kicho, and Palgwae poomsae. We use the KKW yudanja poomsae (Koryo, Keumgang, Taebaek, Pyongwon, etc). For students who want to obtain KKW Dan rank I teach the Taegeuk poomsae as well. Coming from an (ancient) ITF background, I also practice the Chang Hon forms (without sine wave), although they are not taught as part of our curriculum.


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## SahBumNimRush

I agree, it is somewhat of a unique position.  Although my KJN doesn't talk much of his life prior to immigrating, here is what I do know.  The year that Kwans began to unify under the name Tae Kwon Do, my KJN became the TKD instructor with the Korean Army‘s 9th Division. He continued to serve as the first instructor until 1957. He then became the instructor for the Police Cadet School in Korea from 1957 to 1961. From 1961 to 1969, he was an instructor for the United States 8th Army stationed in Korea.  

It could be that during his positions with the ROK army, national police academy, and the U.S. army that he did not learn or train the new form sets?  I know that he sided with the KTA during the unification process.  

If memory serves me, I believe the newer forms were not implemented until 1967-ish, which still leaves 2 years before my KJN immigrated to the U.S.  

I won't speculate as to why he chose not to adopt the new forms, but we have always practiced the older shotokan/shudokan form sets.


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## paitingman

I am 4th dan under kkw taekwondo. My master was part of the OhDoKwan but I believe they have always been very closely knit with kukkiwon.

The revamp of kukki taekwondo standards and techniques over the recent years has been an interesting change. I personally enjoy having the clearly standardized techniques and forms. 
It serves it's purpose as just that, a standard, in the sporting world. Poomsae competition has had its resurgence with a clear, transparent, standardized path to victory. So for those who enjoy that it's pretty neat.

But also it serves as a cool talking point, common denominator for masters from all areas. We all are familiar with eachothers techniques/curriculum due to the standards, and can have and talk about our own reasons for any deviations we have to those standardized techniques.


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## Miles

I too have been away from MT for awhile.  I practice KKW Taekwondo but started many years ago in the pre-sine wave ITF.  Three years ago I started Hapkido which has been a lot of fun.


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## Dirty Dog

paitingman said:


> I am 4th dan under kkw taekwondo. My master was part of the OhDoKwan but I believe they have always been very closely knit with kukkiwon.



That's unusual, given that the Oh Do Kwan, founded by Gen CHOI, Hong Hi, was the birthplace of the ITF.


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## paitingman

Dirty Dog said:


> That's unusual, given that the Oh Do Kwan, founded by Gen CHOI, Hong Hi, was the birthplace of the ITF.



That's just what I was told by him. After looking into it, they were founded by Gen Choi, but claims to have aligned with kukkiwon in 1972. And kukkiwon was made official in 73 I think. 

It'd be cool if someone posted a timeline or something.


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## clfsean

SahBumNimRush said:


> Since I've been gone a while, and just to inject some new discussions into a stagnant forum.. .
> 
> What kinds of Korean martial arts do you all practice.  If it is some version of TKD, what "style/association" do you belong to?
> 
> I'm curious if there are any practitioners of the "older" stylings of TKD that are not affiliated with KKW or ITF.
> 
> For those of you who do not know me on here, I practice Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo (i.e. my KJN was part of the MDK prior to the unification, went with the unification, left Korea in the late 60's, opened up shop in the U.S. and still teaches the same curriculum that has since that time).  We practice the old form sets (Gicho hyungs, Pyung Ahn hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.)



That's what I started with back in the 80's. Now CMA though


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## thanson02

SahBumNimRush said:


> Since I've been gone a while, and just to inject some new discussions into a stagnant forum.. .
> 
> What kinds of Korean martial arts do you all practice.  If it is some version of TKD, what "style/association" do you belong to?
> 
> I'm curious if there are any practitioners of the "older" stylings of TKD that are not affiliated with KKW or ITF.
> 
> For those of you who do not know me on here, I practice Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo (i.e. my KJN was part of the MDK prior to the unification, went with the unification, left Korea in the late 60's, opened up shop in the U.S. and still teaches the same curriculum that has since that time).  We practice the old form sets (Gicho hyungs, Pyung Ahn hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.)


I started in TKD when I was younger and then transitioned into Hwa Rang Do.  Been doing that for 15 years now.

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## SahBumNimRush

How similar is the training/techniques in your current Hwa Rang Do school compared to your previous TKD school?


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## ks - learning to fly

I am a 2nd Dan in Tae Kwon Do (WTF)


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## Dirty Dog

ks - learning to fly said:


> I am a 2nd Dan in Tae Kwon Do (WTF)



It may be seen as splitting hairs, but no, you're not. There's no such thing. The WTF is an organization that sets the rules for and oversees competition in the Olympic sport of TKD. That is all. There is no such thing as WTF rank, since the WTF does not define a curriculum nor award rank. 

 Your rank is from the Kukkiwon, not the WTF. Go look.


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## thanson02

SahBumNimRush said:


> How similar is the training/techniques in your current Hwa Rang Do school compared to your previous TKD school?



It is different.  The kick boxing is basically the same, but there are more hand strikes and there are throws and takedowns.  The sparring program is also full round fighting after you get through the introductory program with ground submissions.  They also train in weapons and have their own meditation practices.

Here is a video of the sparring if your curious:


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## thanson02

Dirty Dog said:


> It may be seen as splitting hairs, but no, you're not. There's no such thing. The WTF is an organization that sets the rules for and oversees competition in the Olympic sport of TKD. That is all. There is no such thing as WTF rank, since the WTF does not define a curriculum nor award rank.
> 
> Your rank is from the Kukkiwon, not the WTF. Go look.



I would say your splitting hairs since the two work together, but you make a valid and correct point.


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## Tony Dismukes

thanson02 said:


> It is different.  The kick boxing is basically the same, but there are more hand strikes and there are throws and takedowns.  The sparring program is also full round fighting after you get through the introductory program with ground submissions.  They also train in weapons and have their own meditation practices.
> 
> Here is a video of the sparring if your curious:


Interesting. What's the scoring like?


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## thanson02

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting. What's the scoring like?



Competitors are judged in 3 categories:
*Striking control: includes how clean your strikes are, are you using effective combo, and how much control do you have in the fight.
*Throws and takedowns: self-explanatory, both offensive and defensive.
*Fighting Spirit: Are you just letting the opponent attack you, are you going after your opportunities when you see them, are you Ki-Hap-ing loudly as you attack, ect. 

It is basically semi-full contact where points are rewarded depending on how you do.  Rounds last 5 minutes and if you get a submission (doesn't have to be on the ground), the match is over.


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## Dirty Dog

thanson02 said:


> I would say your splitting hairs since the two work together, but you make a valid and correct point.



They're still not the same thing...


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

I was tested under KKW standards and they certified my Dan ranking, however as I also trained directly with my grandfather (Kyongwon Ahn) one on one in and outside of the dojang I've been exposed to a number of "non-curiculum" techniques.  I was also encouraged and allowed to cross train particularly in Hapkido, Judo, BJJ and even Boxing and Wrestling.  

I'm currently learning more about the roots of the arts, and the knowledge you guys possess is really amazing.  Much respect fellows.


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## SahBumNimRush

Drew Ahn-Kim.  I have met your grandfather many times, and I hold the upmost respect for him.  My KJN and GM AHN were childhood friends.  In fact he was on the examiners table at many of my early tests in the 1980's and early 1990's.  If you don't mind me asking where do you currently live and train?


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

SahBumNimRush said:


> Drew Ahn-Kim.  I have met your grandfather many times, and I hold the upmost respect for him.  My KJN and GM AHN were childhood friends.  In fact he was on the examiners table at many of my early tests in the 1980's and early 1990's.  If you don't mind me asking where do you currently live and train?



I appreciate that Master Rush, my grandfather is an amazing man in dojang and outside.  I'll have to ask about you, he's got a steel trap memory.  Who were you masters over the years?

I currently live in London and am training at Urban Kings an MMA gym, primarily working on grappling/BJJ under Jude Samuel one of the UK's elite black belts who comes from a great lineage and has several of the major championships to his name.

I'm not at the moment training TKD on a daily basis in terms of attending classes, but I have plans to head to Cincinnati and get in some training in TKD with Grandmaster Hickey, and Hapkido and TKD Master Chuck Beyersdorfer, and a few of my Grandfather's other students.

I've really been on a bit of a quest to explore other disciplines and see what I can potentially pass along to my students should I one day open a school or at the very least train some individuals.


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## kitkatninja

Tang Soo Do MDK here (came from a Shotokan and kickboxing/freestyle background)


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## Tony Dismukes

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> I have plans to head to Cincinnati and get in some training in TKD with Grandmaster Hickey, and Hapkido and TKD Master Chuck Beyersdorfer, and a few of my Grandfather's other students.


If you're back in Cinci long enough to travel around a bit, you're invited to drive down to Lexington and visit the gym I teach and train at. Let me know you're coming and I'll cover your mat fee.


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## SahBumNimRush

My Kwan Jang Nim has always been Sok Ho KANG, I have been training under my Sah Bum Nim, Chuck Hannah since 1985.  I'm not sure your grandfather would necessarily remember me personally, but I am sure that he has many memories of my KJN and my SBN.  He used to sit on the examiners table at our promotion tests when I was a child.


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## SahBumNimRush

I remember Master Ron Hickey from the tournament circuit from the 80's and 90's, a very nice gentlemen.


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## chrispillertkd

paitingman said:


> That's just what I was told by him. After looking into it, they were founded by Gen Choi, but claims to have aligned with kukkiwon in 1972. And kukkiwon was made official in 73 I think.
> 
> It'd be cool if someone posted a timeline or something.



Honestly, it's not all that unusual given historical circumstances, and technically _all _the Kwans are affiliated with the KKW. Gen. Choi founded the Oh Do Kwan and it became the spearhead for the development of Taekwon-Do. It was founded in 1953, shortly after the Korean War and he began referring to the martial art he was instructing as Taekwon-Do in 1955. In 1959 he became the first president of the Korea Taekwon-Do Association. In 1962 Gen. Choi was sent to Malaysia as ambassador by Park, Chung Hee (who had become president of the ROK in 1961 via a military coup). The ITF was set up to better promulgate the international spread of Taekwon-Do in 1966.

In 1972 Gen. Choi fled South Korea and settled in Toronto, Canada.

The Oh Do Kwan, which had at least one other Kwanjang since being founded was still headquartered in South Korea and the political pressure exerted by the Park regime for people to distance themselves from Gen. Choi, who was a sharp critic of Park, was considerable. In effect, Koreans could no longer be affiliated with the ITF after Gen. Choi fled the ROK for his own safety. There were Korean expats and Koreans who had become citizens of other countries who remained with the ITF, including members of the Oh Do Kwan. But the Oh Do Kwan itself was still in Korea and became part of the Kwan unification movement under the order of the Korean government.

We do have a few members of the Oh Do Kwan here on MT, both independent and, IIRC, affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd

Xue Sheng said:


> Well I guess we let the CMA guy start off.
> 
> I use to be a KMA guy, many years ago, but I have no idea what version, it was pre-Olympic and with Jae Hun Kim in Boston.



GM Kim was at one point affiliated with the ITF and even submitted a series of photographs for Gen. Choi's textbooks showing the speed of various techniques using strobe flashes. His punch was timed at 0.03 seconds and his front snap kick was 0.1 seconds, if I recall correctly. I believe he is now affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd

I'm a 6th dan with the ITF and this will be my 30th year training.

Pax,

Chris


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## Xue Sheng

chrispillertkd said:


> GM Kim was at one point affiliated with the ITF and even submitted a series of photographs for Gen. Choi's textbooks showing the speed of various techniques using strobe flashes. His punch was timed at 0.03 seconds and his front snap kick was 0.1 seconds, if I recall correctly. I believe he is now affiliated with the Kukkiwon.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Thanks, this would have been back in the late 70s


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## HanmudoJohn

Hammudo student here. I started Hammudo when it was in it's infancy in 1990. We where a Hapkido/Kuk sul school under Dr He Young Kimm. After founding Hammudo we branched off to learn and teach Hammudo with Hammudo technique curriculum but still using Kuk sul forms. I received 1st Dan in 1997 at 17, to be one of the first Black Belts awared to my age group. Before that Dr Kimm was not a fan of "kids" with black belts. Anyway, 19 years later I am training under GM Serio. I have training in western boxing, Muay Thai, Kuk Sul, Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do. Most recently I have had the privilege to train Haidong Gumdo as well.  I love KMA. I feel it does not receive the respect it deserves... Thank yall for having me here

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## Earl Weiss

Dirty Dog said:


> That's unusual, given that the Oh Do Kwan, founded by Gen CHOI, Hong Hi, was the birthplace of the ITF.



IIRC the existence of the KKW pre dates formation of the ITF and then of course the WTF and goes back to the ODK days. This of course was before it was reinvented after General Choi became persona non grata to be the Center for WTF  / KKW TKD in 1973 or so. 

A quick internet search only reveals typical history starting from 1973 onward.   I think there is a mention of it in general Choi's Bio as a training center.   So, a connection to KKW from ODK is not that unusual.   However, there are maany misnomers out there.   Met some who claim they do CDK (Because their founder was CDK) but in reality they do the Chang Hon forms.


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## Earl Weiss

So Far found this

"Though, the term ‘Kukki’  is now synonymous with the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters - built in 1972) and WTF (World Taekwondo Federation - founded in 1973), the term was used much earlier, in relation to Taekwon-Do, by General Choi Hong Hi, when in 1965, he named his travelling demonstrations of Taekwon-Do the ‘Kukki Taekwondo Goodwill Tour’. A tour incidentally sponsored by the South Korean Government!"

Academy of Taekwon-do - Martial Arts Training In Harrow and Pinner


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## chrispillertkd

Earl Weiss said:


> IIRC the existence of the KKW pre dates formation of the ITF and then of course the WTF and goes back to the ODK days. This of course was before it was reinvented after General Choi became persona non grata to be the Center for WTF  / KKW TKD in 1973 or so.
> 
> A quick internet search only reveals typical history starting from 1973 onward.   I think there is a mention of it in general Choi's Bio as a training center.   So, a connection to KKW from ODK is not that unusual.   However, there are maany misnomers out there.   Met some who claim they do CDK (Because their founder was CDK) but in reality they do the Chang Hon forms.



Master Weiss, Gen. Choi mentions in his autobiography having the initial plans for the Kukkiwon drawn up in 1967 while the ITF had been formed in 1966. I am unsure of the exact date of the KKW's completion but it was the site of the WTF's first WC in 1973, IIRC.

Pax,

Chris


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## Dirty Dog

Earl Weiss said:


> IIRC the existence of the KKW pre dates formation of the ITF and then of course the WTF and goes back to the ODK days. This of course was before it was reinvented after General Choi became persona non grata to be the Center for WTF  / KKW TKD in 1973 or so.



I do not believe this is really correct. The Kukkiwon was founded in 1972, and the WTF in 1973. Both well after the founding of the ITF. Perhaps you're thinking of the KTA, which was an earlier group that eventually spawned the KKW. General Choi was affiliated with the KTA for a time, but I do not think he ever had any connection to the KKW or the WTF.


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## Dirty Dog

Earl Weiss said:


> So Far found this
> 
> "Though, the term ‘Kukki’  is now synonymous with the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters - built in 1972) and WTF (World Taekwondo Federation - founded in 1973), the term was used much earlier, in relation to Taekwon-Do, by General Choi Hong Hi, when in 1965, he named his travelling demonstrations of Taekwon-Do the ‘Kukki Taekwondo Goodwill Tour’. A tour incidentally sponsored by the South Korean Government!"
> 
> Academy of Taekwon-do - Martial Arts Training In Harrow and Pinner



Kukkiwon means "national gym" and the word "kukki" can be correctly applied to many many contexts other than TKD. While some may well shorten "kukkiwon" to kukki, this would be an incorrect usage, since the word means, basically, "nation" or "national." The name of the goodwill tour basically indicates that the team doing the tour is meant to represent the country, rather than an individual school.


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## Raymond

I trained privately/one-on-one with an instructor who was a third dan in TKD under an instructor who was 9th dan in TKD, HKD and 6th dan in Judo.  My instructor's GM's bio says he was Moo Duk Kwan but I can't confirm as I have not met him (my instructor moved away to where he is now).  

My instructor is not affiliated with any group or organization and does not teach Taeguk or Palgwe forms to kyu ranks and uses a unique set of forms.  After Dan gradings he teaches Taeguk forms.  For the past several years he has not taught at a school but only privately/one-on-one.  

Even though my dan certificate says TKD I typically am uncomfortable calling myself a TKD person since I am not affiliate/recognized by major orgs and I did not officially learn either of the major form sets.  Also, he teaches much self defense from HKD and what I learned from him looks and feels more like a blended system of his own (he also had Goju-ryu influences as he trained it for a long time too).


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## paitingman

Dirty Dog said:


> Kukkiwon means "national gym" and the word "kukki" can be correctly applied to many many contexts other than TKD. While some may well shorten "kukkiwon" to kukki, this would be an incorrect usage, since the word means, basically, "nation" or "national." The name of the goodwill tour basically indicates that the team doing the tour is meant to represent the country, rather than an individual school.



Some teams and individuals call it kukki taekwondo in reference to this




which reads "Kukki Taekwondo" dated 1971, when the president declared taekwondo the national sport. A lot of people have this hanging in their schools. Earlier uses of the term may reflect the same idea of the "nations taekwondo" though before it was a set style like wtf or itf.

nowadays kukki taekwondo as a term now references "the national sport-taekwondo"/"the style that is national sport" i.e. WTF Taekwondo.


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## Gnarlie

Up until at least 1996, Kukkiwon were calling it Kukki Taekwondo too, see the Textbook published in 96:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oQGBuzDxL._SL500_SX338_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

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## Dirty Dog

Yes, I was incorrect to state that "Kukki TKD" was an incorrect usage, especially when I pointed out in the same post that "kukki" could be used to prepend any number of nouns. And since the kukkiwon is sanctioned, endorsed and controlled by the South Korean government, it's certainly reasonable to say it's the national TKD.

None of which changes the fact that the WTF is not a style of TKD, but merely a governing body for a specific ruleset used for a subset of competition.
Look at the WTF website. They clearly define themselves as a sport governing body, not a style. 
There are no WTF schools. 
The only members of the WTF are the National Associations governing Olympic competition appointed by the Olympic Committee for that country.
There are no procedures for awarding rank.
There are no standards for curriculum.
There are no training programs for instructors (only referees...).
Notice that in their publications (for example, HERE), participants are referred to as athletes or players. Not as Martial Artists.
What is used in WTF competition is a tiny subset of the art of Taekwondo. The WTF does not pretend to be a style.


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## Gnarlie

Agree - these are facts. The WTF, soon to be rebranded 'World Taekwondo', regulates their competition sparring and their Poomsae competition including judging standards. Nothing to do with syllabus or grading standards for KKW, except for KKW students being expected to show an awareness of current competition techniques and standards. Beyond that, the KKW syllabus goes way further as a martial art. 

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## Earl Weiss

chrispillertkd said:


> Master Weiss, Gen. Choi mentions in his autobiography having the initial plans for the Kukkiwon drawn up in 1967 while the ITF had been formed in 1966. I am unsure of the exact date of the KKW's completion but it was the site of the WTF's first WC in 1973, IIRC.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



That must be what I recall.


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## Azulx

@Dirty Dog you seem to have so much knowledge of TKD. I would love to pick your brain some time about how you teach certain techniques, forms, etc.


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## Dirty Dog

Azulx said:


> @Dirty Dog you seem to have so much knowledge of TKD. I would love to pick your brain some time about how you teach certain techniques, forms, etc.



I'm always happy to help how I can, within the limits of the medium.


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## Azulx

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm always happy to help how I can, within the limits of the medium.



A couple days ago I posted on the importance of the principles of the way one spins during Hyungs. Specifically the Ch'ang Hon Forms, my instructor teaches us to spin clockwise, while the traditional forms spin counter clockwise. His reasoning, "It is the fastest way to strike the opponent." This is the way he was taught. I didn't think this was a wrong or unethical change, but I didn't know if other schools had these changes. You stated that you weren't a fan of the change of direction. I was wondering why? Is there a big picture that is missed as to why to spin a certain way? What do you teach is the importance of spinning a certain way?  

Ex: In the traditional CH pattern, move 9 of Dan-Gun pattern requires an anti-clockwise spin into the Twin Forearm block (Square Block), we step together and spin clockwise into this move.


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## Dirty Dog

Azulx said:


> A couple days ago I posted on the importance of the principles of the way one spins during Hyungs. Specifically the Ch'ang Hon Forms, my instructor teaches us to spin clockwise, while the traditional forms spin counter clockwise. His reasoning, "It is the fastest way to strike the opponent." This is the way he was taught. I didn't think this was a wrong or unethical change, but I didn't know if other schools had these changes. You stated that you weren't a fan of the change of direction. I was wondering why? Is there a big picture that is missed as to why to spin a certain way? What do you teach is the importance of spinning a certain way?
> 
> Ex: In the traditional CH pattern, move 9 of Dan-Gun pattern requires an anti-clockwise spin into the Twin Forearm block (Square Block), we step together and spin clockwise into this move.



One reason for the turn to be in that direction (as I mentioned in that thread) is to practice turning backwards, the way you'll need to be able to turn for things like spinning back kicks. A balance drill. The turn itself can also be seen as an evasion of an attack.


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## Earl Weiss

Azulx said:


> A couple days ago I posted on the importance of the principles of the way one spins during Hyungs. Specifically the Ch'ang Hon Forms, my instructor teaches us to spin clockwise, while the traditional forms spin counter clockwise.
> 
> Ex: In the traditional CH pattern, move 9 of Dan-Gun pattern requires an anti-clockwise spin into the Twin Forearm block (Square Block), we step together and spin clockwise into this move.


 
While the system as more 3/4 turns to the left, there is one to the right in Yul Guk.  There may be other s but I have not thought about it right now past Gae Beck.  There are plenty of half turns in each direction.


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## Azulx

@Earl Weiss If you don't mind me asking, where is your school located?


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## Earl Weiss

My main location is in Des Plaines Illinois a little north of O'Hare airport. I have another very small - currently club in Skokie Il..


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## Earl Weiss

Azulx said:


> @Earl Weiss If you don't mind me asking, where is your school located?




National Taekwon-Do Academy, Inc.


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## oftheherd1

The discussion seems to have gotten away from the original question (never saw that happen before  ).

I have not actively pursued training or teaching since about 2000/2001, my main art is/was Hapkido.  Many years ago, about 1965, I studied briefly under Jhoon Goo Rhee in Washingto, DC, never getting past 8th Green belt.  That was when he was still teaching traditional (whatever that is understood to be) TKD.  Back then we never questioned any such thing as lineage, nor suspected there was any such important thing. 

Same with the Hapkido I studied. 

Good to see others who are studying Hapkido.


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## Earl Weiss

oftheherd1 said:


> ..................).
> 
> ...  Many years ago, about 1965, I studied briefly under Jhoon Goo Rhee in Washingto, DC, never getting past 8th Green belt.  That was when he was still teaching traditional (whatever that is understood to be) TKD.  Back then we never questioned any such thing as lineage, nor suspected there was any such important thing.
> 
> .



In 1965 if you walked into a school doing TKD there was little chance it was anything but Chang Hon.  It stayed this way thru  1974 or so.   Even then it took schools to convert to a new system or jump on the newly popular moniker without changing their old Kwan ways.


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## oftheherd1

Earl Weiss said:


> In 1965 if you walked into a school doing TKD there was little chance it was anything but Chang Hon.  It stayed this way thru  1974 or so.   Even then it took schools to convert to a new system or jump on the newly popular moniker without changing their old Kwan ways.



I looked up Chang Hon.  As I recall, our first three forms at the beginning white belt lever were called "H Forms" which looks like a Dan Gun form in Chang Hon, at the green belt level.  We had two white belt levels, two green levels, 2 blue levels, and four brown belt levels before black belt.

That was a very long time ago so I could disremember.


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## SahBumNimRush

Earl Weiss said:


> In 1965 if you walked into a school doing TKD there was little chance it was anything but Chang Hon.  It stayed this way thru  1974 or so.   Even then it took schools to convert to a new system or jump on the newly popular moniker without changing their old Kwan ways.



That is an interesting observation, and certainly before my time.  In my neck of the woods, the Young Brothers TK-D were the only ones from that lineage that I remember seeing with prevalence in the early 80's when I started taking TKD.   My KJN opened a school in 1969, teaching Moo Duk Kwan "Korean Karate."  I'm sure it was more of a case of running in circles you were familiar with, but we had various MDK masters visit our promotion examinations and tournaments through my early years, as well as representatives from Jidokwan, Song Moo Kwan, and various other kwan.  

I cannot say with certainty that they were present in the 60's and 70's as that was before my time.  

I do know that Sok Ho KANG (my KJN), Il Joo KIM, Kyongwon AHN, S. Henry Cho, Ki Whang KIM, and Jae Chul Shin all opened schools in the 1960's and were not of the ITF or Oh Do Kwan lineage.

Joon Pyo CHOI, Young Pyo CHOI, Song Oh MOON, Chun Shik KIM, and Choong Woon KIM all opened their schools in the early 70's.

Again, the most prominent school near me that was open during that time was the Young Brothers.  I remember getting excited seeing their dobahks in the movie, "The Best of the Best" when I was a kid, haha.

I'm not asserting that you are wrong Master Weiss, I just didn't realize that the ITF/Oh Do Kwan was that prevalent throughout the U.S. in the 60's and 70's.  Thanks!


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## Earl Weiss

SahBumNimRush said:


> .......................  My KJN opened a school in 1969, teaching Moo Duk Kwan "Korean Karate."  I'm sure it was more of a case of running in circles you were familiar with, but we had various MDK masters visit our promotion examinations and tournaments through my early years, as well as representatives from Jidokwan, Song Moo Kwan, and various other kwan.
> 
> .....................................
> 
> I do know that Sok Ho KANG (my KJN), Il Joo KIM, Kyongwon AHN, S. Henry Cho, Ki Whang KIM, and Jae Chul Shin all opened schools in the 1960's and were not of the ITF or Oh Do Kwan lineage.
> 
> Joon Pyo CHOI, Young Pyo CHOI, Song Oh MOON, Chun Shik KIM, and Choong Woon KIM all opened their schools in the early 70's.
> 
> ......................................
> I'm not asserting that you are wrong Master Weiss, I just didn't realize that the ITF/Oh Do Kwan was that prevalent throughout the U.S. in the 60's and 70's.  Thanks!



My point is as you state above: "  

My KJN opened a school in 1969, teaching Moo Duk Kwan "Korean Karate." .

People from these other Kwans were doing what those Kwans did.     The "TKD" moniker had not become popular, in some circles was disfavored and generally not used by other Kwans .  They did not adopt the TKD moniker instead avertising MDK, CDK, Tang Soo Do, Korean Karate etc.   So, were they doing TKD?

  So, if you walked into a school saying and advertising "TKD" in 1965 -1973  there was little chance it was anything but Chang Hon. 

And therein lies the confusion.   To now look back and say that any Korean who was kicking and punching was doing TKD even though they did not use and in fact may have rejected the name but later adopted the name,,, so that is what they were doing is the confusing part.


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## SahBumNimRush

I apologize, I missed the context of your statement above.  I always had the impression that the "Korean Karate" moniker was purely an attempt to get folks in the door, because most had heard the term "karate," but most were unfamiliar with the term Tae Kwon Do.  Our dobahks and patches all read Tae Kwon Do, even back in the 60's, albeit not advertised on the signage out front.  

It is interesting that, for the most part, the ITF/ODK lineage were the first to "advertise" the term TKD on their signage in the U.S.

I wonder why that is?  General Choi's influence?  Better standardized unification efforts by the ITF/ODK?  Either way, interesting piece of history.


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## Earl Weiss

SahBumNimRush said:


> It is interesting that, for the most part, the ITF/ODK lineage were the first to "advertise" the term TKD on their signage in the U.S.
> 
> I wonder why that is?  General Choi's influence?  Better standardized unification efforts by the ITF/ODK?  Either way, interesting piece of history.



No mystery. If you were ODK or later ITF you followed the General's orders.  If not , you were not his subordinate  the fact that he was an authoritative figure would piss you off. Therein was a basis for much animosity and rejection of the name.


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## SahBumNimRush

Earl Weiss said:


> No mystery. If you were ODK or later ITF you followed the General's orders.  If not , you were not his subordinate  the fact that he was an authoritative figure would piss you off. Therein was a basis for much animosity and rejection of the name.



It's threads like this that keep me coming back to MT, thank you for the insight Master Weiss.


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## Raymond

I've done TKD and HKD in the past but have just started training Jungki Kwan HKD


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## Jedmus

I started in TAGB Tae Kwondo which is based on pre sine-wave ITF but have since moved to ITF and am 5th Kup (grading today to go to 4th Kup)


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