# Why people steal music.....



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 5, 2005)

Ok, I've had a tune running through my head for a week. Unfortunately, my only copy is on vinyl and I don't currently have access to a turntable. I thought, what the hell, I'll go buy the single.

 So, I do a search on a few of the online music sites and end up at Buy.com.  I order my tune, pay for it (99 cents), and proceed to process the order. I get all the way through to the "Download" point when I start running into problems.

 First, they want to download and install some 'special' software that after 20 minutes waiting for it to finish downloading and installing I discover that it's not compatable with any browser except IE.

 So, log in with the security hole, and try again.  This time, it breezes right through, file downloads and I think cool.

 Wrong. 3 reboots later, I'm steaming.  Farking crap DRM software drives the CPU load on my system up to 100 and locks it in. 

 Following Buy.com's lack of helpful FAQs I clean boot, update Windows Media Player (the only thing allowed to play the download initially), WMP DRM, and run a bunch of M$'s tests.  Everything looks good.

 Except the fracking file still won't play. >_<

 WMP gives a "page not found" error when trying to aquire and install the licence.

 Buy.com's "helpful" advice?  Contact M$ for help...not their problem.

 Last time I ever buy anything from them.
 Last time I buy music online.
 :angry:


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## Andrew Green (Oct 6, 2005)

Copyright infringment is not stealing.  It is a crime, but it it not stealing.

 If it was it wouldn't have been lobbied by the **aa groups to the point where the punishment for going into a record store and actually stealing a disk is less then downloading it.

 That said, people download songs for the convienience.  It's there, it's fast, it's free and it's not DRMed.

 Thankfully, Canadian law works a little different and we still have some rights


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## MA-Caver (Oct 6, 2005)

IMO, that downloading music or copying a CD (or movie) or whatever, is okay... as long as *you're* not trying to make a buck off it. I mean is it any different than say when you were transferring all of your vinyl records to cassette? Or recording this and that song on to a cassette so you'd have all your favorites on one tape? For *your* listening pleasure?
Now we do it with better technology. Oh wait a tic... we didn't buy it and am getting it for free. Hmm, much like borrowing a friend's record or tape to listen to it (and probably record it on to a [another] tape.)
Now if I were to make say a 100 copies of a vinyl record on to cassettes and then try to sell them for a buck or two apiece then I think the companies/artists have a legitimate beef with me. But I don't...okay? Still I have various (CD's) with my favorite songs mixed in my favorite way of my favorite artist(s). What was wrong about that? Oh... I still didn't PAY for those songs... hmm even if I recorded them off an (free) Internet radio station??? Oh... fine print... wasn't supposed to? Wow... gotta learn to read more ... 
But as to why I did it is simple. about an average of 8 months out of the year I'm basically unemployed/poor and thus cannot enjoy the comforts of buying a $14 - 22.00 CD/Video. Ah, alas in keeping with the letter of the law I must do without. Sucks to be me eh?  .... I ... don't... think... so. 

Actually I think instead of going after the folks who copy/record media (read: general public/consumer) they should go after the folks that are making the technology to begin with. Millions of DVD/CD burners have sold since they've been created. Has anyone stopped them? No, because they were created for legitimate use; backing up your HD. Ah! So perhaps they need to chase down the program writers for Nero, Roxio and other choice companies who make programs (specifically to copy media) conversion/recording programmes. 

Bust me and they'll have to bust nearly 20 to 40 million other people who've done just what I've done. Oh, easy for me to say that... until I'm behind bars eh? At least they *GOT* me huh?...


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Ok, I've had a tune running through my head for a week. Unfortunately, my only copy is on vinyl and I don't currently have access to a turntable. I thought, what the hell, I'll go buy the single.
> 
> So, I do a search on a few of the online music sites and end up at Buy.com. I order my tune, pay for it (99 cents), and proceed to process the order. I get all the way through to the "Download" point when I start running into problems.
> 
> ...


Try a large record store. Some will let you select (and pay for) titles that they will burn onto a CD for you. Unfortunately, most online sites ASSume that you are a Windows and Explorer user.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob...

 TECHNICALLY since you own the Vinyl it shouldnt matter.  I know the Organized Crime Syndicate known as the RIAA (It still makes me giggle to know they are being sued on the RICO act) says any download is evil and "illegal" but Fair use says you can own a copy... what difference does it make where the source of that copy came from?


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, most online sites ASSume that you are a Windows and Explorer user.


 Well, yeah, if you were a MAC user they would assume that you would be downloading some silly propriatry format like Itunes, and Linux users dont listen to music unless its the soundtrack to "Deep Space Nine" right???

 *rolls eyes*


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Bob...
> 
> TECHNICALLY since you own the Vinyl it shouldnt matter.  I know the Organized Crime Syndicate known as the RIAA (It still makes me giggle to know they are being sued on the RICO act) says any download is evil and "illegal" but Fair use says you can own a copy... what difference does it make where the source of that copy came from?


 I had it in mp3 format way back when, but can't find the file. Figured dropping a buck was cheaper than spending a few hours looking for it.  Didn't realize I'd have to spend a few hours rebooting and reconfiguring my system in vain and piss away the buck.

I've found that the error I'm getting indicates that the licence for the file is unavailable (ie been pulled/moved). So, it looks like Buy.com sold me a non-playable file.  Nice.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 6, 2005)

I had a similar problem with an iTunes tune I bought at me bruddah's house and took back to my house.  It sucks working with proprietary encodes.  Normally, I d/l music for 'evaluation' purposes.  If, after 30 days, I have not bought the cd, then I keep the mp3 a while longer.  Mostly, it's stuff I already bought at one time or another anyway.


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## mrhnau (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I had it in mp3 format way back when, but can't find the file. Figured dropping a buck was cheaper than spending a few hours looking for it. Didn't realize I'd have to spend a few hours rebooting and reconfiguring my system in vain and piss away the buck.
> 
> I've found that the error I'm getting indicates that the licence for the file is unavailable (ie been pulled/moved). So, it looks like Buy.com sold me a non-playable file. Nice.


ouch... very stinky... Are you going to try to contact them and let them know what happened? I don't know how good customer service is w/ them..

I wonder... if you have already purchased an item and try to download it for free, how would the legal case go? If you have the vinyl, would they prosecute if you download from kazaa or some other source? I had my car stolen a while ago w/ alot of rare tapes. No longer being published, and to buy them *used* would cost me about 100 for some of them. Alot of them I can't even find online anywhere!

MrH


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## Andrew Green (Oct 6, 2005)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> Actually I think instead of going after the folks who copy/record media (read: general public/consumer) they should go after the folks that are making the technology to begin with.


 That one goes right back to the betamax case.  Movie and tv producers where sure that the entertainment market would suffer huge loses as everyone would just copy there favorite movies and tv shows.

 It fell through (thankfully) because there where legitimate uses.  Home video has become a big thing.  VHS tapes sold far better then other formats before...

 Lately they have been going after the makers of peer to peer software, notably the victory over grokster.  But it didn't loose because of what it was, as much as what the marketed use of it was.

 Even photocopiers and scanners have come under fire for providing the public with the means to make there own and skip paying the producers.

 Yet these things are all rather important to how our culture has grown lately, so a technology that makes it possible to do legal things can't be shut down just because there are also illegal uses.

 Fair Use, or Fair Dealing up here, gives you the right to make personal copies.  Something that was very important a few years ago with floppy disks failing regularlly...

 It also lets you transfer the format of something. So if I own a cd I have the ability to transfer it into MP3 and put it on my computer or MP3 Player.  I also have the ability to make a back up copy in case the original is damaged.

 So it is not the technology, the technology is important and a big part of promoting innovation.

 Of course the work around for the RIAA / MPAA and other such groups is the DMCA, which makes it illegal to work around or remove copy protection.  So even though you have the right to transfer your cd to MP3, if they put a form protection on the CD, you can't legally work around it, and can't legally use your fair use rights.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2005)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> ouch... very stinky... Are you going to try to contact them and let them know what happened? I don't know how good customer service is w/ them..
> 
> I wonder... if you have already purchased an item and try to download it for free, how would the legal case go? If you have the vinyl, would they prosecute if you download from kazaa or some other source? I had my car stolen a while ago w/ alot of rare tapes. No longer being published, and to buy them *used* would cost me about 100 for some of them. Alot of them I can't even find online anywhere!
> 
> MrH


 I tried contacting them, and it bounced. Interestingly enough, the "help" request was sent from their website through an online form, and the bounce message indicates it was rejected as spam. So, Buy.com seems to think that it's customers asking for help is spam.

Interesting ne?


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## mrhnau (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I tried contacting them, and it bounced. Interestingly enough, the "help" request was sent from their website through an online form, and the bounce message indicates it was rejected as spam. So, Buy.com seems to think that it's customers asking for help is spam.
> 
> Interesting ne?


grrr.... is there a phone number to be found? let me see if I can find one. thats -really- stinky dude...

MrH


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## mrhnau (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob, I found this web site:

http://www.computergripes.com/buy.com.html

It has the following responses at the very bottom:
*FYI: *Phone numbers for buy.com:  949-389-2000 (thanks Pegi) and toll-free 877-780-2464 (thanks Rick). An anonymous poster on my blog said the toll-free number is answered in New Dehli India by people with strong accents. I have not verified this. 
*Update:* Another anonymous poster confirmed the above toll-free number and that it is answered in New Delhi. This person (Carrie) like me, had used buy.com happily for years before having recent problems. April 12, 2005. 
*Update*: Another anonymous poster said: "even if you call the non-toll free number, once you are transferred to customer support you get their agents in India. Every time I have called after the American operator answers I get shuffled off to India". September 1, 2005. 
*Update:* Another anonymous poster said the 877-780-2464 number is a waste of time and at the 949-389-2000 you have to insist that you not be transferred to India.

I've not used them, but this might be a good starting point for you. Hope this helps!

MrH


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2005)

I appreciate the digging.  At this point, I'm going to write it off, and either re-encode the vinyl (once I locate a turntable), buy the cd (used) or get the MP3.  Not worth spending a day going nuts over a buck.  Just pissed that my first (and now only) attempt to buy online turned into a headache.


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2005)

Give them grief!

But refusing to ever buy music because of one glitch, one day...what if you applied that same logic to bulletin board software?


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2005)

Good point.

But I won't do business with Buy.com again.


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2005)

I hear ya.

I bought my iPod Nano at CompUSA last week. They tried 5 times to sneak in a $60 warranty. I had to keep refusing it. If she hadn't scanned my credit card already I would've walked out, but I was afraid they'd send the charge through. It was like buying a used car.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> (once I locate a turntable),


Bob... I have one that I tried to sell in my garage sale but it didnt sell. It was my fathers, Im assuming it works... if you want it... you can have it if you pay for me to ship it to you.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2005)

What type of output jacks does it have?


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> What type of output jacks does it have?


Dunno, Ill check when I get home tonite


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## mantis (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Ok, I've had a tune running through my head for a week. Unfortunately, my only copy is on vinyl and I don't currently have access to a turntable. I thought, what the hell, I'll go buy the single.
> 
> So, I do a search on a few of the online music sites and end up at Buy.com. I order my tune, pay for it (99 cents), and proceed to process the order. I get all the way through to the "Download" point when I start running into problems.
> 
> ...


 woof.. oh man
 after all this i wouldnt steal music, i would quit music...


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## BlueDragon1981 (Oct 13, 2005)

If I'm not mistaken...you can make a copy of anything you own, as long as you don't sell the copy for profit. That is copyright infrindgement. So if you have the right to copy your music, dvds, etc. What gets me is that the recording industry is complaining about it intsead of adjusting to it. Wasting money on lawyers and some are even trying to shut down companies that offer burning software. If that is happening then I guess we really don't have the right to create a copy of things we own.

The recording industry should simply find a way to get things online. Stop complaining and get with the program.

Personally I don't download much music. Don't find the need to. Unless I can't find something in the store or the prices around here are just to high.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 13, 2005)

BlueDragon1981 said:
			
		

> If I'm not mistaken...you can make a copy of anything you own, as long as you don't sell the copy for profit.


 Yes, this is called fair use or fair dealing or something else depending on where you are.

 The catch is the DMCA, and that is why it has caused so much trouble lately.

 What they can do now is implement some form of copy protection on the media they sell.  Legally you have the right to make back up copies and switch it to a different format (cd -> mp3).  BUT, it is illegal to break the copy protection, even if you own it.  So even though you have the right to make copies you have no legal way of doing it.



> The recording industry should simply find a way to get things online. Stop complaining and get with the program.


 Do you own any cd's that you also owned records or cassettes for?  There is a lot of money in selling people stuff they already own for a better format.  Once it goes digital and copying doesn't cause a loss in quality that market dissappears.

 Why would I pay for a MP3 when I can just burn it off a disc I already own?



> Personally I don't download much music. Don't find the need to. Unless I can't find something in the store or the prices around here are just to high.


 I just don't like having all those cd cases to store, which is all they are after they get converted to digital... something to store.


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## Loki (Oct 14, 2005)

I was thinking of starting to use an online music service, but after reading this thread, it doesn't seem to pay off.

 My problem with downloading music is that it's stealing intellectual property. If you download a whole album or movie off the internet and burn it, you're not going to but it from the store, right? You made no profit, but neither did the artist. Some of you might say that the record company takes all the money anyway, but if the records don't sell, there'll be no contracts.

 I do see the benefit of P2P networks, such as letting you hear a song before you decide you want to own the rights to a copy of it. Some songs are acquired tastes as well, and you only like them after several hearings.

 What I do is download a song, and when I reach 5 songs or more by the same artist, I go out and buy an album. Of course if I go even higher, I'll buy another and so on. Since I had over 500 songs before developing a "moral responsibility", this process is gradual. Like MACaver, I'm not swimming in money, so I buy an album when I can. It's not perfect, but I think it's decent.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 14, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> My problem with downloading music is that it's stealing intellectual property.


 No, it's copyright infringement.  Don't let the brainwashing work. 

 "Intellectual Property" is just a new burry buzzword, and it is *not* stealing.  It is illegal... depending on where you are and what you do with it.


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## Loki (Oct 14, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> No, it's copyright infringement.  Don't let the brainwashing work.
> 
> "Intellectual Property" is just a new burry buzzword, and it is *not* stealing.  It is illegal... depending on where you are and what you do with it.


 I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. Could you be clearer?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 14, 2005)

It is not theft, not stealing either.

 What it is is copyright infringment.  

 Calling it theft or stealing is intentionally missleading and using word play to influence perception.

 I, as a Canadian, Have the right to make personal copies of music, including peer to peer downloads.  I believe it falls under fair dealing.  I can't sell or distribute or in any way profit, but I can make personal copies for my own use.  In compensation a levy is charged on all blank media sold.

 Copyright infringement is a crime, but it is seperate from theft.  No theft has occured, it is simply advertising buzz words to influence the way people think.  

 By making it out to being theft they are trying to influence public perception and remove what rights people do have.

 It would be like calling vandalism murder cause you "killed" the aesthetics of the neighbourhood...


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## Loki (Oct 14, 2005)

Then maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I referred to songs which I don't in any format.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 14, 2005)

I know, it's still not stealing.

 I was talking about songs not owned in any format


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## Loki (Oct 15, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I know, it's still not stealing.
> 
> I was talking about songs not owned in any format


 Really? How so?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 15, 2005)

For me to commit theft I have to take something from you, and you have too loose it.

 Copyright infringement does not do this.  We don't call counterfiting money theft do we?  We call it counterfiting.

 Or if I make a watch, right "Rolex" on it and sell it as such, have I commited theft? No, that's counterfitting.

 Music is the same, copying it when you are not allowed to is not theft, it is copyright infringement.  Which is still a crime, but one that has nothing to do with theft.

 It gets especially tricky as different countries have different laws on what counts as copyright infringment, and what is considered fari use / fair dealing.

 But if you got taken to court for downloading music the charge would not be theft, it would be copyright infringement.


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## Loki (Oct 15, 2005)

Andrew, thanks for clearing that up.


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