# Self Defense System vs Friend? (non-malicious attacker)



## Nick Stanovic (May 29, 2012)

I'm going to be attending university starting in late August. The university has a club called Green Dragon Kung Fu (my friends are already jokingly making fun of me for "thinking about joining the villain dojo from The Karate Kid") where a form called White Lotus is used. From research it seems like this is not an official system/style but a name that various teachers use to make their system "sound cool." The system advertised is supposed to be female in nature because it focuses on self defense via finger strength by teaching nerve strikes and disabling moves like attempting to dig out eyes or tear off ears.

My question from the title is: What systems are there that I could use to fend off a friend or someone 'play fighting'? Obviously I don't want to severely injure a friend messing around with me so I was just curious about a system for stopping or controlling incoming attacks without trying to maim the other person, if this question even makes sense. Sorry.

EDIT: This is a demo of White Lotus (



) but animal forms are taught at the school as well. Oh and does anyone have any personal experiences or have heard of Sifu John R Allen? Thanks again!


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## Ceicei (May 29, 2012)

Does your university have a judo or jujitsu club or class?  That may be something to meet your criteria of learning how to physically control without causing serious harm.

Ceicei


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## Nick Stanovic (May 29, 2012)

I've heard of Judo will look into if the university has a club! I don't really want to study Jujitsu because (this will probably offend someone I'm sorry) there are so many guys walking around with Tapout t-shirts in bars trying to act really macho and talking non-stop about UFC, it is just a clash with my personality. I'm sure there are people practicing Jujitsu for reasons other than wanting to be a cage fighter but in my area, Jujitsu clubs/gyms attract the people I naturally don't get along with.


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## Chris Parker (May 30, 2012)

Blunt honesty? If it's a good system, it won't really be good for mucking around with friends. And if it's good for mucking around with friends, it's not a self defence orientated system. There are many reasons for this, by the way.


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## Tez3 (May 30, 2012)

Nick Stanovic said:


> I've heard of Judo will look into if the university has a club! I don't really want to study Jujitsu because (this will probably offend someone I'm sorry) there are so many guys walking around with Tapout t-shirts in bars trying to act really macho and talking non-stop about UFC, it is just a clash with my personality. I'm sure there are people practicing Jujitsu for reasons other than wanting to be a cage fighter but in my area, Jujitsu clubs/gyms attract the people I naturally don't get along with.




Hint...the guys in Tapout Tshirts and talking about the UFC don't train anything, don't fight and know bugger all. If they call themselves a 'cagefighter' then they aren't, we do MMA not 'cagefighting'.

Where are you going to uni? That would help people advise you on what to try out.


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## WC_lun (May 30, 2012)

A good kung fu system will have controling via chin na.  Do not mistake "controlling" for weak.  Chin na can be very painful and do incredible amounts of damage to the human body if taken far enough.  If a kung fu system does not have controlling techniques and/or teaches ONLY things that are dangerous to use, I would not even give them a second glance.  They are not a real CMA system and more importantly, not a real self defense system.  You MUST be able to practice what you use under the stress of real resisting opponents or you will never know if you are learning correctly.  Once basic, solid, reliable concpets and principles are learned, then it becomes a much easier to do things that can cause serious damage.  Relying on pressure points and such things as eye gouges for a beginner as reliable self defense methods is seriously bad.

As far as using your martial arts to play around with your friends, don't do it.  Chris is right in that martial arts, even sporting martial arts, can seriously hurt a person.  A bad fall, a limb bent at slightly the wrong angle, a hold held slightly too long, etc can have terrible consequences as a result of just messing around.  A better route would be grow a bit thicker skin and don't let a friend goad you into doing something stupid.


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## Chris Parker (May 30, 2012)

Not exactly what I meant....

When "mucking around" with friends, you often have to omit what is needed for the techniques to work properly. You have to omit softening strikes, for instance, as well as having to deal with rather different "resistance" than an actual assault would give. As such, techniques that are designed to have a realistic application are not really available (in the true sense) in such situations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't do anything with friends... but I will say that my friends pretty quickly learn not to ask.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 30, 2012)

> What systems are there that I could use to fend off a friend or someone 'play fighting'?



Your best bet for this purpose is some grappling system with a freestyle, sportive component.  Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, or Sambo will all give you the capacity to take someone down and pin them without necessarily hurting them.  (These systems can also be useful in real self-defense situations as well, although the application may be a bit different.)

BTW - Tez is right, the odds are that most of the guys you see wearing their Tapout shirts and talking tough in bars are not actually training jujutsu.


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## oftheherd1 (May 30, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> A good kung fu system will have controling via chin na. Do not mistake "controlling" for weak. Chin na can be very painful and do incredible amounts of damage to the human body if taken far enough. If a kung fu system does not have controlling techniques and/or teaches ONLY things that are dangerous to use, I would not even give them a second glance. They are not a real CMA system and more importantly, not a real self defense system. You MUST be able to practice what you use under the stress of real resisting opponents or you will never know if you are learning correctly. Once basic, solid, reliable concpets and principles are learned, then it becomes a much easier to do things that can cause serious damage. Relying on pressure points and such things as eye gouges for a beginner as reliable self defense methods is seriously bad.
> 
> *As far as using your martial arts to play around with your friends, don't do it. Chris is right in that martial arts, even sporting martial arts, can seriously hurt a person. A bad fall, a limb bent at slightly the wrong angle, a hold held slightly too long, etc can have terrible consequences as a result of just messing around. A better route would be grow a bit thicker skin and don't let a friend goad you into doing something stupid*.



Worth repeating. The only people you should "play around" with are your dojang mates, and then as controlled by your teacher. 

Don't let friends goad you into showing what you can do. Typically, they are out to prove they are better, and the more you frustrate them, the more they will try to win, and require you to do something hurtful or damaging. 

Frankly, I wouldn't consider them friends anyway it they continue to pursue that course of action. That, or you need to be more emphatic about not "playing" with them.

EDIT: I second Tony Dismukes on looking for a grappling art, but AFIK, most King Fu has a lot of grappling. A Kung Fu practitioner can correct me if I am wrong. I could add Hapkido to his list as that is my art.

The main thing you want is a good, properly taught art, with a good teacher. There really isn't a best art if you are wondering. Some do some things better, or just fit the body or mind set if different people, so they become the best for that person. If you have the chance, you need to find one that fits you best at a good school. That is the hardest part.


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## punisher73 (May 30, 2012)

Any good system should be able to instruct you in different levels of force and how to deal with them.  So you would learn techniques to use when your "drunk friend" keeps trying to see how tough you are all the way up to someone really attempting to cause serious injury and/or death.  But, as with all things, the "playfighting" with your friend is not a good idea.  Too many things can go wrong and turn into a real deal because of ego.


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## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Blunt honesty? If it's a good system, it won't really be good for mucking around with friends. And if it's good for mucking around with friends, it's not a self defence orientated system. There are many reasons for this, by the way.


Actually one reason: you can't use a system, you can't practice. Whoa upon edit I misread your post. If you can't play with your buddies you need a better Art. Sorry.
Sean


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## shesulsa (May 30, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Any good system should be able to instruct you in different levels of force and how to deal with them.  So you would learn techniques to use when your "drunk friend" keeps trying to see how tough you are all the way up to someone really attempting to cause serious injury and/or death.  But, as with all things, the "playfighting" with your friend is not a good idea.  Too many things can go wrong and turn into a real deal because of ego.



This.  I'm a fan of contain-and-control techniques and systems that have a good portion of curriculum on this aspect of fighting arts. It's good for police and anyone who may need to learn ... well, pain compliance.

No matter what you train, however, you will need to ask the instructor (if it is not readily offered to you as part and parcel of regular instruction) about the concept of "control." You will need to practice all levels of control regularly.

Good luck!


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## Nick Stanovic (May 30, 2012)

Okay thanks a bunch for clearing up misconceptions. The points about teaching something extremely harmful to beginners not being a good approach makes sense. I would not be able to practice/spar if the only techniques possible are ones that would put someone in the hospital. The university is Kent State University. Their biggest Martial Arts club is called Green Dragon Kung Fu (http://www.greendragonkungfu.com) and is taught by Sifu John R Allen. In their pictures on their facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Green-Dragon-Kung-Fu-Club/25008813989) I've seen pictures with weapons handling and one of the forms was called White Lotus but I don't know if it was the same as the video I linked with heavyset Asian instructor because the video I originally linked was the first youtube result for 'white lotus.' I have not looked into what the smaller MA clubs are at the university but any more input regarding opinions of the website or personal experiences with the club/Sifu would be appreciated.

EDIT: Check over this page http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/recommendations.asp and tell me if you agree with his recommended forms based on experience level. I have no idea what any of the forms mean and if that is the proper order to learn.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 30, 2012)

> This. I'm a fan of contain-and-control techniques and systems that have a good portion of curriculum on this aspect of fighting arts. It's good for police and anyone who may need to learn ... well, pain compliance.



I'm actually not a huge fan of pain compliance techniques.  They have their place, but they're not that reliable.  A good wrestler/judoka/BJJer can control an opponent through the manipulation of balance, application of leverage, placement of weight, and the use of good body structure, without relying on pain to enforce compliance.  In my experience, that approach is much more reliable.


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## Sukerkin (May 30, 2012)

*As far as using your martial arts to play around with your friends, don't do it.


*Such good advice from WC that it was worth putting in big, bold, font .  Fortunately for me, in my Kung Fu days, my close friends were also training at the same school so it wasn't really an issue; we weren't play-fighting, we were practising :lol:


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## K-man (May 30, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Blunt honesty? If it's a good system, it won't really be good for mucking around with friends. And if it's good for mucking around with friends, it's not a self defence orientated system. There are many reasons for this, by the way.


In principle this is right but as *WC lun *said, a complete system will give various degrees of response ranging from simple deflection to all out destruction. Chin Na is a very good suggestion and seeing there is a Kung Fu club available, I would be there like a shot.

But the other point is also very important to remember. A little knowledge can get you into a lot of trouble, and there can be a lot of alcohol fueled situations at University.   Enjoy your opportunity.     :asian:


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## pgsmith (May 30, 2012)

If I remember correctly, Kent State has an aikido club. Aikido is an art where you can thump your friend's face in the dirt without hurting him too much.


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## WC_lun (May 30, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm actually not a huge fan of pain compliance techniques.  They have their place, but they're not that reliable.  A good wrestler/judoka/BJJer can control an opponent through the manipulation of balance, application of leverage, placement of weight, and the use of good body structure, without relying on pain to enforce compliance.  In my experience, that approach is much more reliable.



This is true of any good kung fu system as well.  This describes good chin na more than just pain compliance.


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## Nick Stanovic (May 30, 2012)

Thanks for the helpful advice and replies once again. I found out that the university does not have Judo or Aikido but if Chin Na is part of Kung Fu that is similar then that will be pretty neat. I'm not very strong but I have good muscle tone so trying a MA that is force meets force would not work good for me. I will research Chin Na now.


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## Gentle Fist (May 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Hint...the guys in Tapout Tshirts and talking about the UFC don't train anything, don't fight and know bugger all. If they call themselves a 'cagefighter' then they aren't, we do MMA not 'cagefighting'.
> 
> Where are you going to uni? That would help people advise you on what to try out.



You mean learning jujutsu from YouTube to impress your friends doesn't count?


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## oftheherd1 (May 31, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm actually not a huge fan of pain compliance techniques. They have their place, but they're not that reliable. A good wrestler/judoka/BJJer can control an opponent through the manipulation of balance, application of leverage, placement of weight, and the use of good body structure, without relying on pain to enforce compliance. In my experience, that approach is much more reliable.



In the Hapkido I learned, we used a variety of pressure points and joint locks, all of which caused pain, and in the case of joint locks, gave control or broke things depending on how far we carried it.  Pressure points are different.  A proper joint lock should hurt anyone if done correctly.  I have found that some pressure points don't work the same for all people, if at all.  But frankly, those people are in a small minority.  Usually, a properly applied pressure point will cause pain.  But again, as we learned pain pressure points, they were mostly to facilitate a technique.

All that to say joint locks, properly applied should work on anyone.  If it wasn't properly applied, or your opponent knows a counter, you need to disengage quickly and try something else.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 31, 2012)

> All that to say joint locks, properly applied should work on anyone.



Yep - if you're using them to cause structural damage by wrecking the joint.  That's different from using them for pain compliance, where you take the technique to that fine line where you're starting to inflict pain but not damage and hope that your opponent cooperates due to the pain.  Using joint locks that way creates a lot more chances for a serious opponent to escape or for a friend to get damaged accidentally.


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## oftheherd1 (May 31, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep - if you're using them to cause structural damage by wrecking the joint. That's different from using them for pain compliance, where you take the technique to that fine line where you're starting to inflict pain but not damage and hope that your opponent cooperates due to the pain. Using joint locks that way creates a lot more chances for a serious opponent to escape or for a friend to get damaged accidentally.



All true. I have usually cranked in a joint lock untill I see them on their toes of hurrying to get where I am taking them.  

Then I can usually stop and not apply more pressure, just keep what I got.  But again, you are right that joint locks or pressure points must be approached with the knowledge they may not work as you intended, and you need to be able to transition to something else or put distance between you and your opponent until you can apply something that works.


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## punisher73 (May 31, 2012)

Nick,

I have heard on about Green Dragon studios before, and the amount of stuff that they teach is from MANY different styles.  The complaint that I have heard about all of them is that they are all done with the same "flavor" as each other, something that shouldn't happen in some of those styles.  For example, you should see and feel a big difference between Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin.  

Here is a list of all the forms that they teach.
http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/formsindex.asp

I'm not saying that they are bad, but it doesn't seem that they specialize in one system and do it very, very well.  They kind of collect forms and add them to their curriculum and it has the "green dragon" specialization to it.


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## punisher73 (May 31, 2012)

Here is a look at some Chin Na


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## Nick Stanovic (May 31, 2012)

Yes I saw that they teach a lot of forms and thought it would be confusing. I don't know much about Kung Fu but figured each school would specify in one form/style and get really good at it. That way I could tell my friends that I am studying a certain form of Kung Fu instead of just saying I'm learning Kung Fu. Thanks for the video too


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 1, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Nick,
> 
> I have heard on about Green Dragon studios before, and the amount of stuff that they teach is from MANY different styles. The complaint that I have heard about all of them is that they are all done with the same "flavor" as each other, something that shouldn't happen in some of those styles. For example, you should see and feel a big difference between Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin.
> 
> ...



I understand and can't disagree. However, it may be the instructor has simply chosen to incorporate what he believes to be the best of several systems, into one "new" system that he will eventually (if not already) become GM of.

Thanks for that link BTW. I haven't watched all of it, but saw some similarities to some techniques I learned in Hapkido. One difference I seem to see is that we would have stopped our take down at a point where we would have kicked the opponent in the head; disorienting if not damaging to the face and neck. Is what is shown at the beginning common in that regard?


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## Cyriacus (Jun 1, 2012)

First, I love how I could disappear for a while, and miss out on very very little.



Nick Stanovic said:


> Thanks for the helpful advice and replies once again. I found out that the university does not have Judo or Aikido but if Chin Na is part of Kung Fu that is similar then that will be pretty neat.* I'm not very strong but I have good muscle tone so trying a MA that is force meets force would not work good for me.* I will research Chin Na now.



Now,  let me teach You something:

Im out of shape, Im not fast, Im not strong, and so forth, is what just about everyone says before taking any given Martial Art. Those are things that are taught to You. Youre not born a muscle clad machine.

That being said...



Nick Stanovic said:


> Yes I saw that they teach a lot of forms  and thought it would be confusing. I don't know much about Kung Fu but  figured each school would specify in one form/style and get really good  at it. That way I could tell my friends that I am studying a certain  form of Kung Fu instead of just saying I'm learning Kung Fu. Thanks for  the video too



Is it really important to You that You can call it something other than Kung Fu to Your friends?


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## shesulsa (Jun 1, 2012)

Nick - there is an awful lot of analysis here ... here's a thought:

How about just starting somewhere and restrain yourself around your friends?


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## rickster (Jun 1, 2012)

Nick Stanovic said:


> club called Green Dragon Kung Fu


Name sucks/Flowery - RUN AWAY




QUOTE=Nick Stanovic;1494409]  (my friends are already jokingly making fun of me for "thinking about joining the villain dojo from The Karate Kid") where a form called White Lotus is used. [/QUOTE]
Common Name found in texts. 
RUN AWAY


QUOTE=Nick Stanovic;1494409]  From research it seems like this is not an official system/style but a name that various teachers use to make their system "sound cool." [/QUOTE]
If it is cool-it sucks RUN AWAY



QUOTE=Nick Stanovic;1494409]  The system advertised is supposed to be female in nature because it focuses on self defense via finger strength by teaching nerve strikes and disabling moves like attempting to dig out eyes or tear off ears. [/QUOTE]
Flowery-RUN AWAY            

QUOTE=Nick Stanovic;1494409] EDIT: This is a demo of White Lotus (



) but animal forms are taught at the school as well. Oh and does anyone have any personal experiences or have heard of Sifu John R Allen? Thanks again!  [/QUOTE]
If there are many animals.\, it is a thrown together miX-sucks - RUN AWAY


QUOTE=Nick Stanovic;1494409] My question from the title is: What systems are there that I could use to fend off a friend or someone 'play fighting'? Obviously I don't want to severely injure a friend messing around with me so I was just curious about a system for stopping or controlling incoming attacks without trying to maim the other person, if this question even makes sense. Sorry. !  [/QUOTE]
"Play Fighting" - RUN AWAY


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## K-man (Jun 1, 2012)

I think that *rickster*&#8203; has it right.  The style you really want is Ree Bok Do!


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 1, 2012)

The Tapout thing is one part I'm not getting into. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is what's prominent in MMA, not Jujutsu. BJJ is closer to Judo. 

Judo is not a gentle style and it is not good for what you want. It may look like its easier on your friend than punching him in the face, but when you throw someone you are hitting them with a planet. I have been hurt over and over again doing Judo on tatami with skilled friends. Even in non resisting drills. 

Dont play fight. If your friends want to play fight, find smarter friends.


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## Kenpo17 (Jun 11, 2012)

Many universities have a Hapkido, Judo, or Jiu-Jitsu club/group.  As far as using any system/discipline on your friends, do not do it.  First, if any administrators caught you or heard about you using Martial Arts on another student, you would run the risk of being suspended or expelled, and secondly, you wouldn't want to hurt yourself or your friend.  Even though you don't mean to, the chances of you accidentally striking him hard are high.  I know after classes when the instructors are fooling around, we sometimes strike each other too hard, not because we mean to, we just lose control.


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## David43515 (Jun 13, 2012)

Nick, I'm originally from Northern Ohio and have had the chance to train with some of John R. Allen's students. They are all very good, and they are very well rounded. While the White Lotus style is one that they teach, they all get a very firm grounding in northern and southern shaolin systems before branching out into any specialized training. They also do alot of traditional training to make women and men of small size very strong. So don't worry about not being strong to start with. And also don't worry that all they teach is "deadly nerve strikes", they'll teach you alot of basic strikes, kicks, throws and joint locks that you could use against someone without doing irreversible damage. Like someone else said, they tend to make several styles look the same, but they have a great deal of solid, traditional, and above all practical experience. 
Just train hard and take plenty of notes. They LIKE to see that.


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## Curlykarateka (Feb 16, 2013)

just slap 'em and grap an ear. Worked for me!


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## Curlykarateka (Mar 6, 2013)

Finally, a subject I can claim some genuine experience with...despite my relative incompetence defending keyboards from probing hands is a specialty. just jab a couple fingers in their ribs, genty though. usually enough to neutralise an Alt+F4 attacker


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## Prostar (Mar 17, 2013)

When confronted with the "What would you do if..." question, a friend of mine would answer with, "What can I break?"

Huh?

Well, I can't really show you what I would do unless you come at me full power and I defend it, usually breaking something.  So what can I break?

That put an end to silly questions.

Other than that, I would suggest that you shop around and find the class that looks like the best fit for you.  If they give you a week or two free trial, take it.  You will find the best one for you.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 17, 2013)

Prostar said:


> When confronted with the "What would you do if..." question, a friend of mine would answer with, "What can I break?"
> 
> Huh?
> 
> ...



Optionally, you could just answer "I dunno man. What would you suggest?"
Its a bit less toughguy.


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## Kenpo5.0Hawker (Aug 26, 2013)

Man. I'm just a white belt these days. But I'd guess I have enought street exp mixed with some training to weigh in on this. I wont ever wrestle or spar with guys (or gals) who don't train seriously. They don't have the disciplin and are more Likly than not asking you to wrestle/spar for the wrong reasons. Chances are as others have said, they want to prove themselves better than you. Even if you hold back and they win. One day their false security will come back and bite you. I've lost friends several times over this kinda thing. Nowadays I don't get those kind of requests unless my friend is also I training.  I'm older and we are all mellowed a bit. 



Tom


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## CK1980 (Nov 15, 2013)

I had a coworker who used to like to come up behind me and attempt to put me in a rear choke...  He did this because he knew I was a martial arts student.  I would always tell him to stop messing around.  On a particular night at work, I wasn't in a very good mood and he came up behind me and attempted to put me in a rear choke...  Before I realized it, I had countered, escaped, and put him on his knees with his elbow just below the back of his own neck...  It wasn't intentional, but it was reactionary and it was enough to get him to finally back off...

I like the responses of "I dunno..." or "Hmmm, I never really thought about it".  But I say if your friends are dumb enough to put their hands on you then go ahead and show them what you would do, but demonstrate enough self control to stop before seriously hurting them.  It should get the point across.


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## SENC-33 (Nov 16, 2013)

Play fighting leads to nothing good IMO but there are instances when a friend or co-worker can't take a hint so here is my 2 cents. Most people hate to be hit, slapped or smacked in highly sensitive areas like the small of the back, ribs or solar plexus. If you have to send a message train your hands to be heavy so you can whack a sensitive area without "aggressive power" into one of these areas. Don't be antagonistic or arrogant about it or invite further conflict


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## CK1980 (Nov 16, 2013)

I agree...  and that was pretty much my point...  When you play around with anything combat oriented (martial arts, swords, guns, knives, atom bombs, etc)...  Eventually, someone is going to take it too far and someone is going to get hurt...  Thats why many of the schools I have attended always tell their students to show up in street clothes, change, attend class, change back into street clothes and leave.  If people see you sporting a belt or anything that associates you with a school, they naturally want to know "how good you are".


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## Balrog (Dec 4, 2013)

Pressure points.  Learn them, live them, love them.

If your friends start playing grab-*** with you, tell them politely but firmly to stop.  If they don't, make them.  Pressure points are great for that.  They hurt like hell, but they don't do lasting damage.  And while they are whining and rubbing the sore area, you can explain to them that this stuff is not for screwing around with.  Then invite them to come train with you to find out what it is really like.


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## never-finished-learning (Feb 7, 2014)

Aikido- the entire point of Aikido is to control your opponents attack and to re direct them to safety or to guide them back to harmony


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## K-man (Feb 7, 2014)

never-finished-learning said:


> Aikido- *the entire point of Aikido *is to control your opponents attack and to re direct them to safety or to guide them back to harmony


Two things. Why are you training Aikido? I mean, why did you choose it as your martial art of choice? 

and ...

In the unlikely event you are ever in a real fight, (as distinct from this thread about dealing with a friend) just how do you think it will pan out?  Let's say for example you are in a situation where you can't get away and this punk, on drugs, is in your face pushing you around then he grabs your partner. Are you really going to guide him back to harmony?
:asian:


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