# Sword Combat



## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 13, 2004)

Let's have a discussion about hand eye coordination, ma-ai (combative engagement distance) and suki (opportunity), as well as zanshin (a kind of physical and mental domination of your opponent).


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## AnimEdge (Oct 13, 2004)

What about it?


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 13, 2004)

Just your opinions.  Maybe a little expose on your experience.  I'm a new student for about 4 months now.


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## Charles Mahan (Oct 13, 2004)

It's all important?  I appreciate your enthusiasm and interest, but these are things that are very difficult to talk about online.  Why?  Lots of reasons.  One of the most important is that the principles are unique for each style.  It also takes a certain amount of training to even understand enough to discuss the concepts in a meaningful way.  They're very difficult concepts to describe in words, and to a large degree not all that easy to demonstrate in person either.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 13, 2004)

Ok.  I will try to find a concept in the Sword Arts that we can dicuss.  I just trying to learn.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 21, 2004)

While reading and meditating on the "Book of Five Rings", I was struck by the statement Musashi makes about the Stance.  Do you agree that the stance should be just as though you are walking normally, or do any of you use different stances?


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## Eldritch Knight (Oct 21, 2004)

What he says about stance is definetely true in kendo, and I would assume that it would translate into the other koryu and kobudo, though I can't speak for them.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 21, 2004)

Thanks Knight.  I am not a practioner of Kendo, but do you ever practice Kata!


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## J. Lee (Oct 26, 2004)

Realize the historical and geographical significance of his writing including his role in LIFE .

I believe be prepared , be able to change .
With walking everyday we change to accomadate 
daily for co-existance .

He was a Samurai who had authority over others of lesser status , so his gait was one of influence and ...

j lee


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 26, 2004)

Lee:  Are you speaking of a natural gait?


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## Ronin Warrior (Jan 11, 2005)

Do any of you play RPGs? Cuz some of those moves found some games can be useful to learn. Like there's a game called "Legend of Dragoon" and it has a feature called additions and some of the sword moves are easy, realistic, and effective if used properly and quickly. I personally think it's cool, but do anybody else use game moves to practice with? I'm a nerd so bear with me not bash me please.


   "There can be only one" :jedi1:


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## Charles Mahan (Jan 11, 2005)

Umm... no.  Most of us are studying at one dojo or another.  We do not attempt to copy "moves" out of video games.


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## Ronin Warrior (Jan 11, 2005)

FYI it is only for practice. I can't go to a dojo. Don't have a car or the money to do it. What am I supposed to do? Great, just great I already established my nerdism on a distinguished martial arts site. Sorry about that. Swords and stuff is my thing and for me practicing moves from stuff i saw is the only way i get some contrast into my self-training. I only pick the realistic combos, the ones that could actually be used. At least I'm not just slashing in the same direction right? I also incorperate Tai-Chi into my sword training. Is what I do bad or pathetic for a beginner?


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## Cruentus (Jan 11, 2005)

Ronin Warrior said:
			
		

> Do any of you play RPGs? Cuz some of those moves found some games can be useful to learn. Like there's a game called "Legend of Dragoon" and it has a feature called additions and some of the sword moves are easy, realistic, and effective if used properly and quickly. I personally think it's cool, but do anybody else use game moves to practice with? I'm a nerd so bear with me not bash me please.
> 
> 
> "There can be only one" :jedi1:



Ronin,

You seem really interested in Japanese swordsmanship, which is a good thing I think. I really think that you would have a good time training at a Dojo somewhere if you are truly as interested as you seem in Japanese swordsmanship. Have you looked into that yet?

Yours,

Paul


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## ShadowKnight (Jan 11, 2005)

Ronin Warrior said:
			
		

> FYI it is only for practice. I can't go to a dojo. Don't have a car or the money to do it. What am I supposed to do? Great, just great I already established my nerdism on a distinguished martial arts site. Sorry about that. Swords and stuff is my thing and for me practicing moves from stuff i saw is the only way i get some contrast into my self-training. I only pick the realistic combos, the ones that could actually be used. At least I'm not just slashing in the same direction right? I also incorperate Tai-Chi into my sword training. Is what I do bad or pathetic for a beginner?


 What you do isnt bad, just fairly impractical. Yes you may learn the moves from games like Legend of Dragoon, or anime like Rurouni Kenshin but there are things you can only learn in a dojo that dont pertain entirely to the actual sword style but to your character and self improvement.

 I love to hold a sword and feel the cut through the air, but I study Gumdo at a dojo to better improve myself and learn a bit about culture different from my own. One of the advantages of being a proper student is learning the etiquette of that particular style. 

 Again, its not wrong to want to learn something on your own. Im self taught with the guitar, and I do like to cut my swords through the air, but I also like the things I learn or realize about myself and others around me from the dojo.


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## splice42 (Jan 17, 2005)

Ronin Warrior said:
			
		

> FYI it is only for practice. I can't go to a dojo. Don't have a car or the money to do it. What am I supposed to do? Great, just great I already established my nerdism on a distinguished martial arts site. Sorry about that. Swords and stuff is my thing and for me practicing moves from stuff i saw is the only way i get some contrast into my self-training. I only pick the realistic combos, the ones that could actually be used. At least I'm not just slashing in the same direction right? I also incorperate Tai-Chi into my sword training. Is what I do bad or pathetic for a beginner?



I want to be a neurosurgeon. I can't go to university, don't have the time or the money to do it. What am I supposed to do? Practicing stuff I saw on dramas on TV and read about on the internet is the only way. I only pick the realistic stuff. At least I'm not just cutting up people without any qualifications, right?

If you don't get that, maybe you'll get this: until you actually are studying under qualified instruction, you're not doing a sword art. It doesn't matter what you incorporate in it or where you get the inspiration from; in this regard, a comic book or a book written by a high ranking japanese sensei are the same. You can't just do the art by yourself based on what you understand from dead media, you need a teacher.

You're genuinely interested in japanese sword arts and practicing one? Read books related to the arts, inform yourself, keep your interest up. Don't try to "practice" anything, you don't have a teacher. One day you'll find a way to study an art.

Don't care about the japanese sword arts? By all means, keep swinging steel around, do be careful, and don't pretend (to yourself or others) that you're doing anything else than playing around. It can be fun, could be a workout, but it's not preserving the arts, so you shouldn't pretend that it is.


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## Charles Mahan (Jan 17, 2005)

And most importantly when you chop your foot off or the blade breaks and flies across the yard and impales some poor kid, please don't tell the authorities that you were practicing kendo or iaido.  We don't need the bad press.


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## Ronin Warrior (Jan 18, 2005)

Wow aren't we all just so nice to each other. I do practice actual sword moves that I've read in books about. And, yes I know that by practicing realistic moves I saw in a game I know that that is stupid. YOu've all made your point and I get what you're all saying, and I apologize......yeah, right FU all.


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## splice42 (Jan 20, 2005)

Ronin Warrior said:
			
		

> Wow aren't we all just so nice to each other.



So far. We haven't flung insults or anything, have we?



> I do practice actual sword moves that I've read in books about.



That's not practicing a Japanese Sword Art.



> And, yes I know that by practicing realistic moves I saw in a game I know that that is stupid.



And it's not Japanese swordsmanship. In addition to that, without training with someone who knows what he's doing, how are you qualified to say a move is realistic? By thinking about it and reasoning it out? That won't work. They used to go out and fight to the death, now we don't do that anymore. We preserve the traditions, we don't evaluate what we think is realistic or not and pick and choose what we like. That's not what Japanese swordsmanship is.



> YOu've all made your point and I get what you're all saying, and I apologize......yeah, right FU all.



I wonder if you really understand our point. The question is, do you really want to PRACTICE a Japanese sword art, or do you want to be able to SAY and SHOW other people that you can swing a sword around?

If you really want to practice a Japanese sword art, picking moves from books and video games and saying that's Japanese swordsmanship (see your "Art:" in your profile here, you certainly seem to believe that's what you're doing), well, that's just cheating yourself. Without being part of a tradition, without a school and a teacher to guide you, it just plain isn't Japanese swordsmanship.

If you're not concerned by that, that's fine too. Swing the sword around, cut stuff up (but be careful), pick out your moves from anywhere, even Japanese sources if you like. But whatever you do, it's not Japanese swordsmanship. Don't even pretend it is, it can't be. 

Japanese swordsmanship isn't about you picking realistic moves from a variety of sources and doing what you want with them. It's about showing up for class and doing what Sensei says, and maybe later, if Sensei asks you, teach other people what he said.

And see, no insults? Isn't that easy?


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## Angelusmortis (Mar 6, 2005)

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt reference your self implied "nerd" status, ultimately it seems you have low self esteem. However, your final comment, made me seriously question your maturity to study a sword art. They aren't toys, with which to recreate a "video game move". 
Although I don't profess to be an expert on any sword art, my interest is such that when I have the money and time to study a second MA, I will do it properly, not sit there and insult people from my computer. No need for the smart-arsed comments, just sort it out, and learn whatever art it is you want to do properly.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 15, 2005)

Well, I can't agree with Ronin's "FU all", but i can certainly understand his frustration. Many people, including myself, do not have formal training in swordsmanship available to them, for one reason or the other, but do have a great interest. So we try as best we can. I've been "trying" for three years now, almost completely void of media impact such as video or TV show moves, but if you can get something out of them Ronin, then kudos to you, friend, they may help you think in new ways. You should know also, Ronin, that martialists and martial artists without formal training tend to be far more open minded and understanding of other martialists and martial artists than those with formal training. I can't imagine why.
 PS: perhaps this point was never considered, but have any of you "real" swordsmen ever stopped to think of how difficult it is for one to try and forge ahead with no direction of any kind; no teachers, no opponents, not even a place to practice your art? It's quite difficult, and it takes a level of dedication and raw talent I fear some of you don't quite grasp. See? no insults.
 PPS: I can think of nothing that would please me more than to fight a man, or better yet, a great many men, to the death so long as i had my twin blades at my side.


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## Ojiisan (Jun 16, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> PPS: I can think of nothing that would please me more than to fight a man, or better yet, a great many men, to the death so long as i had my twin blades at my side.


You know Steve, after reading this and some of your other inane babblings I just realized that you cant be more than 16 or 17 years old.  If you are older, than you should have enough sense not be giving such advice to Ronin (who definitely is a child).


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

but insane babble is so much fun!


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## shesulsa (Jun 16, 2005)

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> but insane babble is so much fun!


 And THAT, Steve, is why you need formal training before you swing a sword around.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 16, 2005)

mmmmmhmmmmm


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## Cruentus (Jun 16, 2005)

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Paul Janulis
-MT Moderator-*


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## Ojiisan (Jun 17, 2005)

Steve, I did not say *insane *I said *inane*.  The definition of inane is: immature, childish, silly, frivolus, absurd or ridiculous.


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 17, 2005)

woops, you're right; my bad


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## Hyaku (Jun 17, 2005)

Ronald R. Harbers said:
			
		

> While reading and meditating on the "Book of Five Rings", I was struck by the statement Musashi makes about the Stance.  Do you agree that the stance should be just as though you are walking normally, or do any of you use different stances?



Yes I find its great. The objective behind this and other techniques of Musashi is too try and not be too obvious that you are more than prepared to deal with an attack. Another objective he deals with is to get well inside and up under the nose, well inside the opponents Maai. This give him no other alternative than to move back to try and regain ground.

But as I practice his style I will pose you a question. Do you walk like Musashi?


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## SwordSoulSteve (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm sorry to pose such a dumb question, Hyaku, but would you mind telling me what Maai is? Or perhaps what it can be described as in english?


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## Cruentus (Jun 17, 2005)

Hyaku said:
			
		

> Yes I find its great. The objective behing this and other techniques of musashi is too try and not to be too obvious that you are more than prepared to deal with an attack. Another objective he deals with is to get well inside up under the nose and inside the opponent Maai. This give him no other alternative than to move back to try and regain ground.
> 
> But as practice his style I will pose you a question. Do you walk like Musashi?



I think that there is a lot of wisdom in Musashi's book. A natural step forward is a good combative stance for anyone to take. It's balanced and instinctive. As to "Walk like Musashi?" I say...just walk like YOU, and you'll be fine...

 :asian:


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## Hyaku (Jun 17, 2005)

Ma as in interval or space. To put a bit of a gap in between something. Ai as in au to meet. An interval/distance/timing situation. 

Issoku Ito no maai. A one step cutting distance. - To be able to use timing/interval to take one step and cut.

Toi maai - Toi means far. The ablity to control the situation and timing yet be at a distance.

Chikai maai. Chikai mens very near.  Same again being able to work very close well inside the distance of the opponent. 

Generally these are not mixed. Although an understanding of all must be maintained a particular ryu would have preference to use one particular maai to attack from.

Then it gets complicated when you add kamae. Pointing a sword at someone is one thing. Can one be able to adopt a stance such as Jodan, gedan and still be aware of maai? Can you walk up to some one with no weapon to set the maai then place a weapon in your hands to find it correct to a millimeter and still have maintained the correct distancing from hands to hara?  

Chikai maai is one of the hardest and why we dont use short swords without a great deal of experience.

Also sword power is generated by use of kahanshin (lower body power) as opposed to Johanshin (upper body power) and hara. The hips revolve sharply with a strongly generated twisting power which in turn is channeled up to arms wrists etc in a strong natural movement. The cutting hand operates as if there is a strong rubber band joining it to the hara that pushes in to attack. With big weapons we can work on this very technical movement. With small somehow there seems to be message that says, "Oh I dont need to generate kahanshin My arms can do the work". 

We didnt even teach short sword in the open dojo until recently. It really is running before you can walk. 

Footwork:Musashi had a special way of walking The sole of the foot touches down before the toes to stop getting stones between them. But most of all the foot outstretches but leaves bodyweight centralized. Not like a neko no ashi (cat stance) though. More of a floating feeling As the next foot comes in the body still remains centrally balanced but with strong hara pushed in. Moving back still has this application and is harder. The foot is taken back bust everything else remains in. Very difficult to put into words.

Gorin no sho is one thing. Putting it together with the practical application completes the puzzle. The rest is hours of damned hard work. I spent seven years working on one fundamental kahanshin movement before being allowed to move on. 

Hope this helps and gives you some small idea of what we do out there.

If only it was all so simple we would all be masters!


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