# do you drink in the dojo



## ackks10 (Jun 21, 2008)

Heres one for you, i was at this school (kenpo) and after the last class, the teacher went and got a beer and was drinking it,
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (i don't drink) and i don't have anything against anyone who does, (except when you drive), but i was taken back with this
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, what do you people think about this,i mean in the dojo????


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## KenpoDave (Jun 21, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> Heres one for you, i was at this school (kenpo) and after the last class, the teacher went and got a beer and was drinking it,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I would have a problem with that.


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> Heres one for you, i was at this school (kenpo) and after the last class, the teacher went and got a beer and was drinking it,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hmm...this sounds like an interesting story George.  I'm going to have to call you for this one. 

As for the question...the only thing someone should be drinking in the dojo is water or a sports drink.  If someone wants to go out for a drink afterwards, fine, but no alcohol should be consumed in the dojo.

Mike


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## Sukerkin (Jun 21, 2008)

Quite right.  

If you're dealing with a koryu art, nothing should be consumed on the dojo floor (unless medically required).

Certainly no alcohol or other stimulant/depressant substance should be consumed on the premesis, let alone on the dojo floor.

It has exactly the same connotations as swearing (or other inappropriate behaviour) in church.

For example, even before the change in law over here on smoking in public places and despite the fact that our dojo is in a sports hall in a community centre, my sensei would go outside to have a smoke.


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## tellner (Jun 21, 2008)

Anything that could impair a person is unsafe and to be avoided. That said, there have been times when the weather was hot and class was slow. Guru Plinck offered cold drinks including beer to one and all. It was appropriate for the situation and wasn't a problem. Strangely enough, that's never happened when class was in the garage or the welding shop. It only happens during the Summer and out of doors.

People bring non alcoholic drinks all the time. Hydration is important. On cold days or for Saturday morning classes coffee is appreciated. As I have said before, Silat is caffeine-based martial art


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## Drac (Jun 21, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> For example, even before the change in law over here on smoking in public places and despite the fact that our dojo is in a sports hall in a community centre, my sensei would go outside to have a smoke.


 
I still do...Smoking in the dojo, dojang is just WRONG..The ONLY drink allowed is WATER, or my favorite Ice Tea...


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## Kacey (Jun 21, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> Heres one for you, i was at this school (kenpo) and after the last class, the teacher went and got a beer and was drinking it,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a problem with it too - if there's an after-class or after-event get-together that's held in the dojang, that's one thing - but during class?  Never.  Hydration liquids only.  I realize that there are those who feel that beer is a hydration liquid (and it is) - but alcohol has no place in the dojang when people are working out.


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## terryl965 (Jun 21, 2008)

That is a big problem with me, what ones does outside the school his there own business but inside the school, that is like drinking in a court house. Just plain stupid !!!!!


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## Twin Fist (Jun 22, 2008)

Well, since my dojo is my garage, never when students are there.


plus, we need to remember, your dojo is where ever you teach. If there is no class going on, it's just a building.

you can learn, or teach anywhere


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 22, 2008)

My first black belt ceromony we did it more traditional and drank sake.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Jun 22, 2008)

Kempojujutsu said:


> My first black belt ceromony we did it more traditional and drank sake.


 
That's a bit different from crackin open a beer during class.  It's the context of the thing.  To me it shows a lack of discipline.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 22, 2008)

Provided class has ended for the night and all students present are of drinking age and do not drink enough to get drunk on the way home, I have no problem with it.

Under any other conditions, I would.


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## Matt (Jun 22, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> Heres one for you, i was at this school (kenpo) and after the last class, the teacher went and got a beer and was drinking it,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm interpreting this as the beer was obtained *after* the class was over, yes? If so, that's a little unorthodox, but not too out of the realm of possibility.


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## stickarts (Jun 22, 2008)

We don't have alcohol in my dojo and I haven't seen it allowed in other dojos that I know of. The only exception was that on one of my own tests we each were given a small sip of some kind of rice wine at the end of the ceremony but this was hardly enough to taste and was part of the traditional ceremony. There was also non-alcoholic beverage for those that opted to sip that instead.


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## marlon (Jun 22, 2008)

there should be a clear separation btwn training and socializing, imo.  So i would not be for drinking alcohol in the training area, especially if we just finished training, the instructor is still representing the art in the role of teacher.  

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Matt (Jun 22, 2008)

marlon said:


> there should be a clear separation btwn training and socializing, imo.  So i would not be for drinking alcohol in the training area, especially if we just finished training, the instructor is still representing the art in the role of teacher.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon



Just to clarify, I teach in Chris Hatch's dojo, and he has a clear 'no drinking or swearing' rule. I remember we were visiting another dojo and the owner of that dojo was describing a Christmas party with jello shots in that person's dojo, and we both thought it was perhaps a bad idea. 

However, I know several other folks who feel differently and I guess it's the owner's prerogative.


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## ackks10 (Jun 22, 2008)

i'm not talking about taking a little "rice wine" after a test,i just could not understand why someone would drink in the dojo, i just think it makes the whole martial arts way of life thing go right down the drain,i mean like the other person said,you don't swear in the dojo, no chewing gum while in class, but go ahead have a beer after class,yea ok but not in the damm, school,go to the the bar,in fact i remember a teacher that i had, after the school was closed, they all went over to the bar across the street, but i'm from the old school.:soapbox: it don't belong in the dojo, sorry


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## RevIV (Jun 23, 2008)

Matt said:


> Just to clarify, I teach in Chris Hatch's dojo, and he has a clear 'no drinking or swearing' rule. I remember we were visiting another dojo and the owner of that dojo was describing a Christmas party with jello shots in that person's dojo, and we both thought it was perhaps a bad idea.
> 
> However, I know several other folks who feel differently and I guess it's the owner's prerogative.


 
Hey, I was at that party and there was a lot more than Jello-Shots being done....  I think i met my wife there..heehee. (no GM Elmer it was not my dojo)  but, I used to have a hidden apt. at one of my schools that i lived in for awhile and a beer or 2 were consumed.  Also - just so we know i am not a saint -- at the old school we would re-paint the dojo every year -- mostly adult students and parents and we would have a beer when the painting was done and i find no problem in that.  There is a time and place for everything, just like i would not talk to or teach my younger students the same as adults.  I do not have a problem with people doing whatever they want to do in there schools, it does not affect me or my traditions and if they are great teachers then all the better.  I know people who straight up lie to there students to make themselves seem all holy but then go home and get wasted every night.  I think that is worse then the honest person having a beer and showing people that moderation and responsibility are best.  Way better then the fakes with double lives.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 23, 2008)

marlon said:


> there should be a clear separation btwn training and socializing, imo. So i would not be for drinking alcohol in the training area, especially if we just finished training, *the instructor is still representing the art in the role of teacher*.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
:asian: Yes, a subtle but important distinction.

Now if the instructor was in his office and it was after all training was done for the day, and done discreetly, then okay, not great, but less disturbing IMO. But even better -- I think instructors should disassociate their drinking from the dojo altogether. Teachers are called to higher responsibilities (and subject to a higher judgement) for a reason -- they leave an impression, esp. on the younger students.


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## jkembry (Jun 24, 2008)

Yes...during training I would have an issue with it.  Condensation and spillage may happen and cause the floor to become slick...then it is a safety issue.

Now after training and after tests types of celebrations...no problem at all.

- Jeff -


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## almost a ghost (Jun 24, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> Heres one for you, i was at this school (kenpo) and after the last class, the teacher went and got a beer and was drinking it,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was after class. Big deal. Then again I train to learn how to fight, not be an uptight, pious "martial" artist.


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## ackks10 (Jun 24, 2008)

almost a ghost said:


> It was after class. Big deal. Then again I train to learn how to fight, not be an uptight, pious "martial" artist.



what the hell does that mean???    "uptight, pious "martial" artist"


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 24, 2008)

I have been know to drink with friends in the dojo. Not when class was going on but after when the students had gone home. 
Now have I ever had students come to class after they had been drinking, YES, but that is a different story and needs a different thread. 
My dojo is mine and what happens in it after the students are gone and friends gather is a different story.  I will say that practicing after a few drinks is an eye opener or closer if you forget to block.
Would I purposely walk onto the floor when students are practicing with a drink Maybe if I wanted to judge their reaction and how they dealt with such an unknown.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 24, 2008)

Let it go, *ackks*.  

Some people have no interest in the elements of martial arts that are not to do with breaking things.  Most of us might think that they're missing out on some important developments of the personality and the psyche but it's a choice for them to make.

*Ghost*, your comment didn't really add a great deal to the conversation and could be interpreted as a snipe against any other member here who doesn't hold your view.  Constructive is good; even negative can be good if something can be learned from it.  

Being rude achieves little.

But then, I am a spiritually minded sword-slinger with an eye for the aesthetic and another for tradition and history - I'm guessing I know where that places me in your view of the world :lol:.


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## ackks10 (Jun 24, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Let it go, *ackks*.
> 
> Some people have no interest in the elements of martial arts that are not to do with breaking things.  Most of us might think that they're missing out on some important developments of the personality and the psyche but it's a choice for them to make.
> 
> ...




thank you:asian:


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## bowser666 (Jun 26, 2008)

I think it is very unprofessional to allow such things in a training facility.  Granted if it is not a traditional dojo, dojang , etc......  such as a Community Center then there isn't much you can do.  However, instructor's and students should refrain from usage at the place where they train.


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## JBrainard (Jun 26, 2008)

At any outside of class social function, I think drinking would be just fine, but in the dojo? OK, sure, it was after the last class, but it sends the wrong message. Considering that you should be as alert as possible so that you can get the most out of training, I think drinking in the dojo is pretty wierd.


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## Todd Reiner (Jul 11, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> Heres one for you, i was at this school (kenpo) and after the last class, the teacher went and got a beer and was drinking it,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Its after the last class so beer and hopefully BBQ is a non-issue to me. This really depends on the dojo and what is being taught. If the school is commercial then probably not a good idea for public image. If the school is based on fighting then alcohol has its place as long as all those training are fully aware and willing. Lets face it, people like to fight drunk and many fights occur in bars or parking lots of bars. Why not prepare? This really boils down to personal choice. I've chosen in the past to train drunk, just as I have chosen to train on ice, sand, in water, pavement, snow, whateva.


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## tellner (Jul 11, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> Considering that you should be as alert as possible so that you can get the most out of training, I think drinking in the dojo is pretty wierd.



Doing anything that detracts from your training is a bad idea. Sometimes conditions don't allow you to train hard enough for a very small amount to make a difference. And there are days when serious intensity just isn't in the cards or times when training extends throughout the day and ebbs and flows accordingly.

I think part of it is the difference between "training happens in class in a dojo" and "training happens whenever people are together and doing martial arts".


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## TheEdge883 (Jul 11, 2008)

Interesting training utility though, alcohol. Can a student make his kenpo work drunk? The possibilities....


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 11, 2008)

Have to admit that I sure have  had a few after being to the dojo

we always hear about reality training so why not include alcohol in that training


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## LanJie (Jul 12, 2008)

It seems quite unprofessional to me.


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## Mark L (Jul 12, 2008)

I can't think of a single scenario where alcohol could or should be part of training in the dojo.  I do think we should consider our capabilities at a time when we are under the influence, but I suspect that at those times we might be imbued with unrealistic characterizations of our skills. Personally, I wouldn't do that against a resisting partner for their safety and mine.  But I do think about it.  What is the martial arts equivalent of beer goggles?

The only time we have alcohol in the dojo is for the staff _after_ events where we've volunteered out time.  With Chinese take-out after the St. Jude's Kick-a-Thon kind of thing.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 12, 2008)

If some unites of our elite fighting forces have had weapons training while under the influence so that could be prepared to fight under any circumstances (and I do consider there training to be Martial) then why or how can anyone claim to instruct people in realistic life situations with out alcohol being involved?  I am not saying this should be done every day but how well do/can you defend yourself after drinking.  Have you ever been attacked after you have been drinking, if so what where your reactions like?


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## Jdokan (Jul 12, 2008)

Alcohol and any tool or weapon should never be mixed.....


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## Pacificshore (Jul 15, 2008)

Hmm...no I don't drink in the dojo...unless it is water


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 15, 2008)

As a soldier, I'll say this once. Weapons and alcohol do not mix. We are not SUPPOSED to train under the influence.

As a teacher, if a student came into the dojo drinking, I'd throw them out. Alcohol and martial arts should not mix in a learning setting.




tshadowchaser said:


> If some unites of our elite fighting forces have had weapons training while under the influence so that could be prepared to fight under any circumstances (and I do consider there training to be Martial) then why or how can anyone claim to instruct people in realistic life situations with out alcohol being involved? I am not saying this should be done every day but how well do/can you defend yourself after drinking. Have you ever been attacked after you have been drinking, if so what where your reactions like?


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## KELLYG (Jul 15, 2008)

I think that there is a time and place for everything.  I think that drinking after class is ok as long that it is not on school premisis.  There are some people that may have present that do not approve of drinking or have problems with drinking that this may offend. It may also send a message to younger students that their parents do not approve of.  

Then there could be a baby moment.  :hey baby hold my beer, yall watch this: that could endanger the person drinking or someone else that may be a bystander.  Then there is also the fact that this person will eventually leave the school load up in a car and could hurt someone while driving.


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## Danjo (Jul 15, 2008)

Well, in the old Kaju days, they used to train while drinking beer that they had sitting in an ice chest according to more than one senior that I've talked to. 

Also, Count Dante used to have his guys drink and smoke during training to get them used to fighting under those conditions since a bar was most likely where and when they would end up fighting.

Currently, in the school, I only drink tea, water and the blood of my opponents. The DUI laws are too strict these days to chance anything else.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 17, 2008)

JOSH,

I respect your views on training and how you run your school.  I just happen to have been studying longer than you have been alive and in the old days we did things a little different so I may have a little different attitude on such things.
I have not said it is a good thing to do but I have postulated the question on reality based training  and if reality training is really real without the use of alcohol.

As for the military training you may need to read up on some of the old time training methods of our elite forces ( seals, special forces, etc.) many of these methods where under the eye of the unite commander and most have changed over the years but I will assure you that some of the forces did indeed learn to shoot when drinking . Do I advocate the idea of shooting and drinking NO but hell if your in a war zone and your drinking on base and get attacked you might want to be able to react and shoot under those circumstances.


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## pete (Jul 17, 2008)

ok, i've been watching this discussion play out here and on other boards i frequent.  i guess i just don't understand what the major hangup is.!?!

some folks seem to be taking it way too seriously, and looking for reasons and rationale to either denounce it (unprofessional, bad influence, certain traditional views and moral code) or support it (reality based training, different traditional views and moral code) 

well, if drinking beer in the training space is something that would offend you, your personal beliefs, or not fit within your paradigm for martial training or what a martial arts studio represents... then don't go to that school. it is probably not a good match for you on several levels, this likely being the tip of an iceberg.

if on the other hand, you find it enhances the comaraderie, does not offend your sense of propriety, or cause what you would consider a dangerous situation, cool... the place is probable a good fit for you.

personally, i have participated in a St Paddy's Day Boxing & Beer Extravaganza, which was a load of fun and would do again in a NY minute. but to be clear, all were consenting adults, some of whom did not drink but chose to fight sober. it was not allowed to get 'out of control', so my opinion was that while it was fun & safe, it did not qualify as reality based training.

pete


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## KELLYG (Jul 17, 2008)

Well if you went to an event called  St Paddy's Day Boxing & Beer Extravaganza, you would expect some drinking involved and could make a decision if you want to be involved or not. If you just went to a regular class and someone broke out a case of bud then It's different.  Don't get me wrong drinking one way or another does not bother me in the least but It may others.  It seemed to bother the op enough to bring this topic up.


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## Pacificshore (Jul 17, 2008)

I suppose it can be a moral delimma for some and not for others.  However, is there or would there be a difference if you simply take out the dojo and change the setting to a class room at  your child's school?  I know this may be a lil off topic, but maybe not?!


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## Danjo (Jul 17, 2008)

Pacificshore said:


> I suppose it can be a moral delimma for some and not for others. However, is there or would there be a difference if you simply take out the dojo and change the setting to a class room at your child's school? I know this may be a lil off topic, but maybe not?!


 
Well, if you had booze around kids, then you're screwing up IMO.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 17, 2008)

I think that is the point being made.  Alcohol has about as much place in the dojo as smoking or swearing does in church.  It's simply inappropriate.

Of course, my background is koryu and thus coloured by a sense of the martial arts as being as much about spirituality as kicking seven bells out of each other.  Plus, my art involves swords which is another reason for not reducing your sense of awareness one iota.


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## Danjo (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm kinda old school about it all:

*"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The karate of someone who is too serious has no flavor."---Choki Motobu*


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## pete (Jul 17, 2008)

maybe it has more to do with where and with whom you train and what you expect from your training experience.



			
				Pacificshore said:
			
		

> would there be a difference if you simply take out the dojo and change the setting to a class room at your child's school?


 who said anything about minors? not all martial styles cater to the kinder-club.



			
				Sukerkin said:
			
		

> Of course, my background is koryu and thus coloured by a sense of the martial arts as being as much about spirituality as kicking seven bells out of each other.


 i can guarantee that your art does not have a monopoly on spirituality, and well i do know of a highly spirtual being that did some neat tricks to make water a little more lively.

again, its up to the individual running the school and the students who choose to go. safety is paramount, but that is the case with or without imbibing.  yes, excess could lead to indiscretion so i'd be wary of a place that seems out of control, or drinking around kids and such. 

the way i see it, there are many factors that go into the personality of a school.  there are different traditions, many of which are contradictory across disciplines... for example, wearing of uniforms vs no set uniforms, the use of music during training vs no music, shoes vs barefeet, asking questions openly vs waiting to be told what to do, etc. etc. etc.   then you have the business aspects, such as contracts vs no contract, test fees vs no fees, black belt clubs vs no special clubs, etc. etc. etc.  Don't be the square peg in the round hole, and don't try and tell the studio owner how to run his school.. life's about the choices we make.

Make your choice and be happy.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 18, 2008)

pete said:


> i can guarantee that your art does not have a monopoly on spirituality, and well i do know of a highly spirtual being that did some neat tricks to make water a little more lively.


 
I hope that the impression you drew from my words was not an implication that only the art I currently practise had a spiritual dimension?  That was most assuredly not my intent.

What I was aiming at was that it was an example of one of the more heavily tradition shrouded arts and that those arts favour a more spiritual dimension to both the development of the student but, pertinent to the subject, also where the training is done.  Hence, the church analogy.




pete said:


> Make your choice and be happy.


 
Quite so - preferably with a decent bottle of wine on hand .


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 19, 2008)

For those that have read this whole thread let me state that NO I do not promote the idea of drinking within the school by students or instructor.

I will not however throw a student out of class unless I feel he is a danger to himself or others.  He may be regulated to doing forms, exercises, or whatever all night, but if he/she shows up i will work to have him and the rest of the class learn from his mistake.


The practice of the martial arts takes on many forms and differs for each individual.  Learning comes from many venues including observation, over coming difficulties and handicaps, and many other things not usually thought about.  Dealing with such issues is something each student and instructor must do by and of themselves.  We learn from many things in life and if we are fortunate we evolve a little with each experience


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## ackks10 (Jul 24, 2008)

well i can see that we are still one happy family,btw, i don't drink at all (i know i said that before) but if a student comes to class with the smell of it on him /her than that person would have to leave.:shock:

ps it feels good to come back and see everyone,thank you again.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

happy to see you back posting again


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## Jdokan (Jul 24, 2008)

In the days when I drank..(sounds like a rock song doesn't it???) I would frequently find myself in discussion that led to _physical discussion_...in most cases it ended up with an injury typically minor and usually due to too much beer...leading to impaired focus which usually left somebody with a bruise....Now in most of those cases it did prove the point ( to that person) that this stuff works (which was the typical beginning of each discussion)...

I have more memories behind me than in front and as such I want those as clear headed as possible...doesn't mean I'll remember them all (as my wife frequently points out...but that is whole 'nother thread...)

Would I drink alcohol in the the dojo...no...


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

> doesn't mean I'll remember them all (as my wife frequently points out...but that is whole 'nother thread...)


off topic but tell me about it  mine points out the same thing


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