# Winning - Important or Irrelevant?



## Champ-Pain (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm always accussed of being over-competitive. I may very well be - I love nothing more than to win, at anything and everything I do. For me, there is no greater feeling in the world than winning, being best, victorious, champion.

Do you believe that winning is important or irrelevant? - Please explain your position. Thanks in advance


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 18, 2011)

Winning is fun.  To me, more important than winning is improving.  I learn something every time I lose, and winning is a goal.  But if I never win, at least I kept trying and kept learning.  I understand the ultra-competitive thing, but it's just not part of my life.  No disrespect intended, I think it's great to be competitive.


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## oaktree (Sep 18, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I'm always accussed of being over-competitive. I may very well be - I love nothing more than to win, at anything and everything I do. For me, there is no greater feeling in the world than winning, being best, victorious, champion.
> 
> Do you believe that winning is important or irrelevant? - Please explain your position. Thanks in advance



I do not compete I rather let other's win I find more satisfication that way. If I win at something I share my win with the one who did not so both of us are winners. To me the greatest feeling in the world is knowing I helped someone. Do I believe winning is important? There is no win or loose there is simply IS and in my thought of mind we are all winners.


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## Monroe (Sep 18, 2011)

Winning feels pretty good, but the reward is rarely worth the effort to me.


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## MJS (Sep 18, 2011)

Bill pretty much echoed my thoughts.  Sure, you do get a good feeling when you win, but, what mattered most to me, when I'd compete, would be what I'd gain out of the whole event.  Obviously if I win, I did something right, but if I lose...well, what did I do wrong, and what can I do to fix those mistakes?


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## Buka (Sep 19, 2011)

An old baseball quote comes to mind - "Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometimes you get rained out, but you gotta suit up for them all." 

The next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing, it sure beats not playing.


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## seasoned (Sep 19, 2011)

Re: Winning - Important or Irrelevant? 

Self defense imperative. All else is training and learning.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 19, 2011)

If you Set Yourself Up to be Let Down, then youre just asking for Bitterness.

If you Win, so be it. Enjoy it.
If you Dont, then Hopefully you didnt get your Expectations up.

Albeit, it oughtnt be the *Focus*.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 19, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Winning is fun. To me, more important than winning is improving. I learn something every time I lose, and winning is a goal. But if I never win, at least I kept trying and kept learning. I understand the ultra-competitive thing, but it's just not part of my life. No disrespect intended, I think it's great to be competitive.



I think we all have a desire to win at things we do.  Nothing wrong with that unless it consumes us, or we can't appropriately deal with not winning.  Probably because as Bill says, we let winning attack us instead of using it to improve.  In that case, we probably haven't properly defined winning.


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## Nomad (Sep 19, 2011)

Winning is great.  Learning to lose with dignity and composure, and then using a loss to motivate yourself to train harder and improve can be much more valuable in the long term.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 20, 2011)

Depends on what you define as winning.

Coming in 1st place in a tournament or race? Sure who doesnt like that? Being #1 is the best and you are acknowledged for it.

What about passing a test? That is winning to me. Especially when you study for it day and night. Working on for hours at a time. 

Personally for me it is teaching. I love to see the look on peoples face when I have helped them jump that hurdle in their training. Seeing them walk away with a new swagger they lacked previously.

So in answer to your question, yes winning is important it just depends on how you define it.

B


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 20, 2011)

I agree. Winning is passing a test, getting married to the love of your life - til death, buying your dream home, running a successful business, having a wonderful, loving family, etc. - but - I'm specifically talking about sports winning. Taking home the GOLD at a tournament and/or being part of a championship team in sports... however, more so in individual sports, rather than team sports - because although you get all the credit when you win - you can't blame anybody else when you don't. 

I just want to make an observation - Some of the BEST / GREATEST athletes in their individual sport - were all very competitive, very confident, and in many cases, they bragged... Muhamad Ali, Mike Tyson, $Money$ Maywheather, Roberto Duran, Brock Lesner, John Mcenroe, BJ Penn - Hell - most UFC fighters do it, even the not so good ones and many, many others. None of them ever said that "winning is not important" or "irrelevant". On the contrary, to most of them, it was the only thing.


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## seasoned (Sep 20, 2011)

seasoned said:


> Re: Winning - Important or Irrelevant?
> 
> Self defense imperative. All else is training and learning.


Back stepping on this one a bit. I feel it is age and training related.



JudoChampion said:


> I agree. Winning is passing a test, getting married to the love of your life - til death, buying your dream home, running a successful business, having a wonderful, loving family, etc. - but - I'm specifically talking about sports winning. Taking home the GOLD at a tournament and/or being part of a championship team in sports... however, more so in individual sports, rather than team sports - because although you get all the credit when you win - you can't blame anybody else when you don't.
> 
> I just want to make an observation - Some of the BEST / GREATEST athletes in their individual sport - were all very competitive, very confident, and in many cases, they bragged... Muhamad Ali, Mike Tyson, $Money$ Maywheather, Roberto Duran, Brock Lesner, John Mcenroe, BJ Penn - Hell - most UFC fighters do it, even the not so good ones and many, many others. None of them ever said that "winning is not important" or "irrelevant". On the contrary, to most of them, it was the only thing.


When I was a young black belt it felt darn good to win. Not that my Sensei pushed it or made a big deal out of it, but to the contrary, he taught, to do your best and live with the outcome. Needless to say, deep down I loved the win, and the trophy was awesome. But, as I said in the above comment, it is age and training related. When I stated Martial Arts it was self defense centered, so consequently everything I did, whether training or competing, it was about the survival aspect and not the sport outcome. At my age now my mind is geared toward a different type of thinking, but hopefully my input is still pertinent. I do feel thought, that a sensei needs to allow his students to experience all aspects of the arts and evolve where it takes them..


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## Sukerkin (Sep 20, 2011)

Some very good and insightful points made in the posts above.  All I can add to the mix is somewhat short and pithy - don't get 'sport' confused with 'fighting'.  

When it comes to sparring or competition, I really couldn't care less whether I win or lose, just as long, as has been said earlier, that I learn something from either outcome.  

The one time I had to put what I knew into practise for 'real', I 'won' in no uncertain terms ... and it still felt like one of the worst experiences of my life.  That said, even tho' being the 'winner' felt like being the 'loser', it was better than the alternative (physically at least; psychologically I am not so sure given that I still feel guilty even nearly three decades on).


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## Monroe (Sep 21, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I just want to make an observation - Some of the BEST / GREATEST athletes in their individual sport - were all very competitive, very confident, and in many cases, they bragged... Muhamad Ali, Mike Tyson, $Money$ Maywheather, Roberto Duran, Brock Lesner, John Mcenroe, BJ Penn - Hell - most UFC fighters do it, even the not so good ones and many, many others. None of them ever said that "winning is not important" or "irrelevant". On the contrary, to most of them, it was the only thing.



That's not something I have ever aspired to. That's not everyone's cup of tea.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 21, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I just want to make an observation - Some of the BEST / GREATEST athletes in their individual sport - were all very competitive, very confident, and in many cases, they bragged... Muhamad Ali, Mike Tyson, $Money$ Maywheather, Roberto Duran, Brock Lesner, John Mcenroe, BJ Penn - Hell - most UFC fighters do it, even the not so good ones and many, many others. None of them ever said that "winning is not important" or "irrelevant". On the contrary, to most of them, it was the only thing.



If there is only one heavyweight champion in the world at (for example boxing), then everyone else is a loser.  Not everyone can be the champion.  Not everyone wants to be the champion.  And there is nothing wrong with either wanting to win or not being particularly interested in winning.  All winning is both *temporary and illusory*, as it all losing.  In the end, the grave yawns wide for winners and losers alike.  If winning is a goal, then by all means strive to do that.  But if you are not the 'champion' and you spend your life in bitter frustration striving for something you'll never have, in my opinion, that's a sad and wasted life.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 21, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If there is only one heavyweight champion in the world at (for example boxing), then everyone else is a loser.  Not everyone can be the champion.  Not everyone wants to be the champion.  And there is nothing wrong with either wanting to win or not being particularly interested in winning.  All winning is both *temporary and illusory*, as it all losing.  In the end, the grave yawns wide for winners and losers alike.  If winning is a goal, then by all means strive to do that.  But if you are not the 'champion' and you spend your life in bitter frustration striving for something you'll never have, in my opinion, that's a sad and wasted life.


 I don't want you, or anyone else to take this the wrong way - I'm just showing the other side of the coin, here. I agree on your points, but - Isn't trying and failing, better than not having tried at all? If most/all great champions - and contenders, alike - strive to be the best at what they do - are often super competitive, over-confident, brash and braggy - are they all wrong in doing so? I've never heard a champion or contender say winning is not important in competition. They put a lot of sacrifice into their training, by putting aside their family and anything else that may distract it. They constantly diet and lose weight before fights/competition. They often lose out on family time and social events. Why? Because to them - there is nothing as important as winning. 

Now, I'm thinking. Are those who say it is not important, doing so because they've never been good at competition? - Perhaps it's the, how can something I'm not very good at be important to me, mentality? Maybe fear of the unknown and/or failure, so I won't even compete, to keep myself from failing? I don't know, but sometimes it seems as though, the folks saying that "winning is unimportant" - probably didn't win very often, some may have never won at all. 

I'm NOT referring to any member with any of my above observartions. Just making a point / opinion.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 21, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I don't want you, or anyone else to take this the wrong way - I'm just showing the other side of the coin, here. I agree on your points, but - Isn't trying and failing, better than not having tried at all?



Better is relative.  I'm a champion husband and family man.  That's my 'better'.  I'm physically past my prime and not interested in competing for the sake of becoming a champion, and certainly not willing to sacrifice my family (per your statement) to do so.  I like to compete; and I like to do well; and I would like very much to win at some point.  But not at the cost of my family.  That's not 'better' to me.



> Now, I'm thinking. Are those who say it is not important, doing so because they've never been good at competition? - Perhaps it's the, how can something I'm not very good at be important to me, mentality? Maybe fear of the unknown and/or failure, so I won't even compete, to keep myself from failing? I don't know, but sometimes it seems as though, the folks saying that "winning is unimportant" - probably didn't win very often, some may have never won at all.
> 
> I'm NOT referring to any member with any of my above observartions. Just making a point / opinion.



And here's MY opinion.  I'm a US Marine.  I don't have to prove I can be a champion to anyone, ever.  I did all my proving, and my trophy says _"Honorable Discharge"_ on it.  Paid in full.


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## Em MacIntosh (Sep 21, 2011)

My apologies if I offend anyone.  It's unintentional.

I detest competition in almost all its forms (or perhaps all of them). I can't shake the feeling that the participants are just on the quest to be the alpha male, whatever other reasons they espouse. I hate the alpha male concept. The participants are _voluntary_ stepping stones but stepping stones nonetheless. 

I'd rather they were competing in a tourney as opposed to pushing an old lady out of the way on the bus for a seat though. 

As far as arrogant champions, nothing about arrogance makes you less of a fighter, just less of a person (or more of a person based on what society values). 

Not that I'm bitter about losing either, I've done alright in the tourneys I've participated in but I can't stand the pervasive arrogance, the advertisement of testosterone or the macho attitudes that so many forget to leave at the door. I've found that sort of thing is actually welcomed and encouraged. Perhaps not to the extent of taunts and derogatory remarks but the subtle signs of disrespect for rival schools, instructors and fellow students are so common. 

When I won I felt like I'd taken some happiness from another to feed my own. I felt miserable about it and stopped participating in tourneys.

I would love it if someone could convince me of the positive aspects of competition because I don't feel or see them. It's something to strive for but the strife is what counts, not the competition.

Again, my apologies if I'm being offensive.


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## Monroe (Sep 21, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Now, I'm thinking. Are those who say it is not important, doing so because they've never been good at competition? - Perhaps it's the, how can something I'm not very good at be important to me, mentality? Maybe fear of the unknown and/or failure, so I won't even compete, to keep myself from failing? I don't know, but sometimes it seems as though, the folks saying that "winning is unimportant" - probably didn't win very often, some may have never won at all.



I'm good at a few things and won some things. A little competition is healthy. but I'm not going to make sacrifices for it. I have a life outside of sports and I don't want to make sacrifices to it for sports. Winning requires sacrifing time and effort, with no guarantees. When I work for something, I expect that outside of some unusual event, I want a reward that matches the effort I put into it. A medal that lasts until the competition doesn't cut it for me. 3-5 hours per week cardio/exercise is the minimum to lead a health lifestyle. I want to enjoy myself, maintain my health, learn something new and a little adrenalin. 

I've set goals that I wanted to accomplish and for the most part reached them. 

I'm not afraid to fail. I fail at stuff all the time and I have the witnesses to prove it. Like my attempt at paintball shooting. After screaming like a girl when I got hit, I realized my throat was going to be sore by the end of the day. I would have appreciated it if just one of the guys would have screamed. 

Training to compete seems like a lot of effort for not a lot of reward. It's not impossible that I could win if I worked for it, but I don't think it's worth the effort.


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## Nomad (Sep 21, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> They put a lot of sacrifice into their training, by putting aside their family and anything else that may distract it. They constantly diet and lose weight before fights/competition. They often lose out on family time and social events. Why? Because to them - there is nothing as important as winning.


 
To me, this is the key sentence in this argument.  In order to be "the best" (if that's possible, since genetics undoubtedly plays a role (e.g. Michael Phelps - size 14 feet and double-jointed ankles!)), you have to make a choice to effectively eschew many other aspects of what I'd consider a balanced life.  This includes personal and familial relationships, work (until you're good enough to make your competitive sport your job at least), and social activities.



JudoChampion said:


> Now, I'm thinking. Are those who say it is not important, doing so because they've never been good at competition? - Perhaps it's the, how can something I'm not very good at be important to me, mentality? Maybe fear of the unknown and/or failure, so I won't even compete, to keep myself from failing? I don't know, but sometimes it seems as though, the folks saying that "winning is unimportant" - probably didn't win very often, some may have never won at all.



When I started martial arts, I was much more competitive than I am now, and I was pretty good at it and have a few boxes of trophies to show for it.  

The change away from competition came from a few things.  One was tearing my ACL and having to undergo the long road to recovery following that.  Another was the accompanying realization that while the 20 year olds were somehow staying 20 (or being replaced by new 20 year olds), I wasn't anymore, and had definitely passed my prime.  A third was looking at the lack of attention that other things, like my family and my work, were getting while I was in this uber-competitive mode.  The focus of my interest in martial arts started to shift away from competition towards more self-defense applications.  Altogether, the plastic trophies weren't worth the cost (in terms of health, money, lost time with family & friends, etc) to me.


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## Blindside (Sep 21, 2011)

I will give all respect to those who push the limits of the art and themselves and test it again and again against others. Personally I am not a particularly competitive person, I enjoy competition but I am not willing to put in the time to become an elite competitor (assuming the natural talent was there to begin with.) I will study with those champions and hope to get whatever insights they have developed from their experiences and thank them for providing them to me. Even though I don't have much interest in competing regularly these days I still draw lessons from when I did, and I do use competition as a training tool to motivate me to work harder.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 22, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Better is relative.  I'm a champion husband and family man.  That's my 'better'.  I'm physically past my prime and not interested in competing for the sake of becoming a champion, and certainly not willing to sacrifice my family (per your statement) to do so.  I like to compete; and I like to do well; and I would like very much to win at some point.  But not at the cost of my family.  That's not 'better' to me.
> 
> 
> 
> And here's MY opinion.  I'm a US Marine.  I don't have to prove I can be a champion to anyone, ever.  I did all my proving, and my trophy says _"Honorable Discharge"_ on it.  Paid in full.


 You are obviously a man of principle, no doubt. Keep in mind, I'm only talking about sports winning - nothing else.

I thank and commend you for your service to this great country we live in. It's folks like yourself that make it so great to begin with.


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## robb805 (Sep 22, 2011)

If I become stronger, more physically fit, and have more mental clarity and focus, I'd consider that a win.

I've got nothing but respect for those who compete at the highest levels (and the lower levels) of martial arts, competition just isn't my thing.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 22, 2011)

I'm just saying that those who are on top of whatever world they sit on - will almost always be competitive, proud and often times loud - with few exceptions... and will do whatever possible to win. On the other hand, those who are not very good at sports, whatever sport it may be they participate in, and rarely, if ever, find themselves on a podium receiving an award - will almost always deny the importance of winning (in sport) - with very few exceptions... and in fact, will often avoid competition altogether.

What does that say to you?


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## Twin Fist (Sep 22, 2011)

winning is nice, but it isnt the point, IMO


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 22, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> winning is nice, but it isnt the point, IMO


 Why else would you compete, then? For fun? It's much more fun when you win, IMHO... losing sux! What is "the point"?


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 22, 2011)

My list of reasons on why I say that "Winning is IMPORTANT":

I gain -

1) Confidense

2) Esteem


3) It feeds my ego

4) It gives me something to brag about 

Winning a Championship, Title, Cup - can and has lit up, woken up and brought together - a city, state, country and on occation - a whole region - and forged a unity that was not there, pryor to the Victory - due to pride and joy - that only Victory could have ever accomplished. People often forget wars, death, hardship, sickness, hunger, etc. - when their national team wins - even if only for a short while. So, is it important? I say - Hell Yes!


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## Monroe (Sep 22, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I'm just saying that those who are on top of whatever world they sit on - will almost always be competitive, proud and often times loud - with few exceptions... and will do whatever possible to win. On the other hand, those who are not very good at sports, whatever sport it may be they participate in, and rarely, if ever, find themselves on a podium receiving an award - will almost always deny the importance of winning (in sport) - with very few exceptions... and in fact, will often avoid competition altogether.
> 
> What does that say to you?



I think you're looking to stroke your own ego. I don't know if I have any talent in MA. It's been less than 2 weeks since I started checking out schools. I do know that I'm not looking to get competitive. I have a husband, kids, work and a life more important than competition. But who can argue with you by your logic? Regardless of what anyone says, you've decided that anyone that doesn't want to compete is talentless and would never win even if they tried. It's like arguing with Christians, because everyone who doesn't believe is a lost soul that needs to be prayed for. 

I don't think all Shaolin Monks compete for medals. Are those who don't compete sore losers?


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## Monroe (Sep 22, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> My list of reasons on why I say that "Winning is IMPORTANT":
> 
> I gain -
> 
> ...



For you. I've seen a person come in first and say years later that they should have spent that time with their family.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 22, 2011)

Monroe - In no way am I trying to stroke my own ego, nor is this an attack on your views or opinions. I say "it is important" - and I gave some resons why I believe it, to be so. I'm not trying to change your mind, or anyone elses. I have my opinions - you have yours - no hard feelings. I've never said anybody is a sore loser - certainly, not about those who don't compete. Please, don't misrepresent my words, quotes, or meanings. Thanks 

Your point about Christians - pretty much goes for all religions.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 22, 2011)

From the standpoint of Japanese arts, particularly armed ones, winning or losing truly are irrelevant.  To consider either of them is to lose _mushin_.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 22, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> From the standpoint of Japanese arts, particularly armed ones, winning or losing truly are irrelevant.  To consider either of them is to lose _mushin_.


 OK - I understand. Maybe you don't, so I'll say it again.

I'm talking about "SPORTS" winning - none of which is intended to be played / fought to the death.

I gave what I thought to be a great and valid point on winning, bringing a region together (blah-blah-blah), when all else has failed. I guess you don't believe that's ever happened before - I'm making it up?


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## Sukerkin (Sep 22, 2011)

I realise that, good sir.  What I was attempting to get across was the alternative concept that within martial arts it really is not the way to think in terms of victory or loss.  It's fine for actual sports from boxing to darts, it just has no place in martial arts ... or tennis :lol: :


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## Monroe (Sep 22, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> OK - I understand. Maybe you don't, so I'll say it again.
> 
> I'm talking about "SPORTS" winning - none of which is intended to be played / fought to the death.
> 
> I gave what I thought to be a great and valid point on winning, bringing a region together (blah-blah-blah), when all else has failed. I guess you don't believe that's ever happened before - I'm making it up?



Then I guess I don't understand what you're still driving at then. Winning is important to some and not important to others.


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## mook jong man (Sep 22, 2011)




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## Cyriacus (Sep 22, 2011)

mook jong man said:


>



*Shamelessly Adds this to his Future Wallpaper*


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 23, 2011)

Monroe said:


> Then I guess I don't understand what you're still driving at then. Winning is important to some and not important to others.


 Yes! - Exactly!!! Winning is it important to some and not to others. The question is ... WHY? and WHY the huge spread between the outstanding athletes, who believe it is, and the average ones, who believe it's not? Although, I've known some very average folks - with lots of intensity and competitiveness - and a love for winning.


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## Monroe (Sep 23, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Yes! - Exactly!!! Winning is it important to some and not to others. The question is ... WHY? and WHY the huge spread between the outstanding athletes, who believe it is, and the average ones, who believe it's not? Although, I've known some very average folks - with lots of intensity and competitiveness - and a love for winning.



I'm guessing for the same reason a large portion of the population don't participate in ANY sports. Because not everyone shares the same interests or the same drive.


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## Nomad (Sep 23, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Yes! - Exactly!!! Winning is it important to some and not to others. The question is ... WHY? and WHY the huge spread between the outstanding athletes, who believe it is, and the average ones, who believe it's not? Although, I've known some very average folks - with lots of intensity and competitiveness - and a love for winning.



I think it may be safe to say that to *be* a champion, you have to have that drive to win that eclipses all else.  Otherwise you're just talented.  Unfortunately (in my opinion), this drive is often accompanied by extreme arrogance and the need to put others down to make sure your place is secure.

Just having the drive alone won't generally get you there though; you also need to have great trainers, good genetics to be well-suited to your sport, a load of individual talent, and a fair bit of luck along the way.

For those of us who don't eat, sleep and breathe towards the goal of becoming a champion in a specific sport, the wins or losses along the way to greater understanding are much less important.  Indeed, as I said before, I think it can be far more beneficial for any competitor to learn how to lose graciously (at least occasionally!) than to win.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 23, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> What does that say to you?



It says you're a troll.  It just took me longer than usual to come to that conclusion.  Later.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 23, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It says you're a troll.  It just took me longer than usual to come to that conclusion.  Later.


 Why? My opinion may not be agreed with, by many - but my arguement does have some real merit and valid points. Although not many members of MT agree with my point of view, I assure you, there are many others who do.

BTW: Nothing I've posted is false or made up - and none of it has been shown to be incorrect... 

I complimented you on being a Marine and a Champion husband - I commended you on serving your country, I thanked you, in what I thought, you would have taken as a good gesture. I've never disrespected you, or anyone else on MT - and your conclusion is that I'm a troll? OK, Later.


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## Monroe (Sep 23, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Why? My opinion may not be agreed with, by many - but my arguement does have some real merit and valid points. Although not many members of MT agree with my point of view, I assure you, there are many others who do.



What are you even arguing?


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## Cyriacus (Sep 23, 2011)

This is a slightly confusing Conversation.

Firstly, I Refuse to State My Opinion on any of these Topics.

In regards to the Previous Statement on Page 2;
This can be True, but it can also be a Result of how many Competitors there are. And someone not Winning doesnt make them Bad at what they do. And so and so forth.
In regards to this Page;
Complimenting someone may be a Good Gesture, but it doesnt give you some kind of Immunity.

Overall; Not being Shown to be Incorrect is a Poor Defense. Since that would mean, that if I said that Martial Talk has less Users than Sherdog, that MT is an Inferior Website; You couldnt Disprove that, due to a lack of any viable way to do so. Short of just slandering one of the two, and looking like a moron.

However, your Reply to *Sukerkin* is slightly Narrow, as it Excludes an Entire Archetype of Competition.
In regards to the UFC, they do want to Win Monotopically, albeit for Money. Not for "Drive".
In regards to Champions; The Current Oceanic/World (I think hes still World?) Champion for the ITF travels around the World on Flights that are Paid for by the Organisation, to Compete, and make Money if he Wins. Hes a Heavyweight, and spends more time at Home than he does doing anything else. But, he doesnt Brag about it at all. Barely anyone even knows who he is. It tends to be other People who Discuss him.

The other Factor, is that a Beginner wont be put up with a Champion in the first place; Even if the Beginner is Better, the Beginner still needs to Navigate their way up. And even then, just having Skill aint enough to get you into World Tournaments.

Some People do Enjoy Losing, largely due to the Competition itself, Learning from their Mistakes, and aiming to Improve.
Competition is the Truest way of Testing your Skill against an Opponent who wants to do the same.



*Bottom Line:*
Your Views could be a bit more Restrospectively Inclusive, but whether or not theyre Deliberately Inflammatory is Debatable.
In Inclined to think theyre Not, but I can see how Others might perhaps think so if Read under that Light.

I do not, however, see any Disrespect. On the other hand, Disrespect is Irrelevant to the Discussion.

--This is mostly for the Benefit of anyone else Reading this, so they can Exploit my Overview of whats been said so far, and come to their own Conclusions. So they dont have to Re-Read the Entire Thread to do so.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 24, 2011)

Monroe said:


> What are you even arguing?


 That winning in sports is important and has many benefits... that's all.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 24, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> This is a slightly confusing Conversation.
> 
> Firstly, I Refuse to State My Opinion on any of these Topics.
> 
> ...


 I don't disagree with your well written and useful comments - except for that part which I've highlighted in red... it may be true, but I've certainly never known anyone who enjoys losing - at least nobody that will admit to it, but it's possible, I guess.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 24, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I don't disagree with your well written and useful comments - except for that part which I've highlighted in red... it may be true, but I've certainly never known anyone who enjoys losing - at least nobody that will admit to it, but it's possible, I guess.



Enjoy possibly wasnt the Right Wording.

Appreciate?


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## Buka (Sep 24, 2011)

I competed in various arts from 1973 to 2000. Trained with a lot of folks who compete and had long talks with more than I can remember. For what it's worth, the only thing we all agreed on was you learn a hell of a lot more from a loss than you do from a win.


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## Carol (Sep 24, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I don't disagree with your well written and useful comments - except for that part which I've highlighted in red... it may be true, but I've certainly never known anyone who enjoys losing - at least nobody that will admit to it, but it's possible, I guess.



I don't think its really the right frame to say that someone enjoys losing, I think its more that the person realizes a benefit in the experience regardless of outcome. Winning and learning do not always follow the same path. 


Personally I'm not the athletic sort so athletic wins aren't important to me....but professional wins, now that's another story.  I have dug in to challenges at work in scenarios that seem impossible.  There have been occasions where I have done the impossible and solved problems everyone around me couldn't solve.   THAT was awesome...a stunning victory, if you will!  Quite the adrenaline rush too....and yup, that's what gets ya hooked. 

But I have also dug in to challenges that seem impossible and not succeed, yet they still seemed like a moral victory in their own right.  Perhaps I learned something that I used to solve another problem.  Perhaps I that I couldn't solve the problem but I could present a workaround to the problem that was better than no solution at all.  

To me a loss would be mismanaging a scenario.  Boss wants me to work with Customer A on their issue.  I don't work with Customer A, I work on the Impossible Challenge instead.  Boss gets madand takes action against me for not focusing on the primary task at hand.  That's a loss.  I miss my friend's birthday party because I decide to stay late at work and dig at the Impossible Challenge, my friends are disappointed in me for not being there.  That's a loss.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 24, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Enjoy possibly wasnt the Right Wording.
> 
> Appreciate?


 Personally, I can appreciate a good loss - if it comes with effort, especially - if I can turn it into a learning experience. Now I agree with your entire post.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 24, 2011)

Buka said:


> I competed in various arts from 1973 to 2000. Trained with a lot of folks who compete and had long talks with more than I can remember. For what it's worth, the only thing we all agreed on was you learn a hell of a lot more from a loss than you do from a win.


 I don't disagree with that - but seriously, who would rather lose, than win? Winning just makes us feel a whole lot better, in most cases - I suppose that there are always exceptions.

I attended a High School Wrestling event today - I just got back, in fact. Every single teen I saw after a victory was happy, proud of himself, and talking about their wins with team-mates, family and friends, and showed lots of confidense. Those I saw after a loss were hunched over, heads down, seemingly sad and insecure. Anybody could tell who won or lost the match - without having watched it - just by looking at the competitors on the way off the mat. Just an observation - not certain what it means.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 24, 2011)

Carol said:


> I don't think its really the right frame to say that someone enjoys losing, I think its more that the person realizes a benefit in the experience regardless of outcome. Winning and learning do not always follow the same path.
> 
> 
> Personally I'm not the athletic sort so athletic wins aren't important to me....but professional wins, now that's another story.  I have dug in to challenges at work in scenarios that seem impossible.  There have been occasions where I have done the impossible and solved problems everyone around me couldn't solve.   THAT was awesome...a stunning victory, if you will!  Quite the adrenaline rush too....and yup, that's what gets ya hooked.
> ...


 I appreciate your post - but once again, I'll repeat that I'm only talking about "SPORTS" winning. I totally understand that there are other forms/ways of "winning" - However, this thread is not about them.


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## Carol (Sep 24, 2011)

Then no, sports winning - to me - doesn't matter much.  Eh....so I join Nastar this year and I win 10 out of 10 races.  Or I win 0 out of 10.  Wouldn't change my life much either way.  I wouldn't do it just for the chance at medaling.  I woudn't quit it just because I didn't medal all season.

 Getting out there, trying something new, having fun, watching yourself improve, that's what motivates me.


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## Monroe (Sep 25, 2011)

The thing is, winning in sports isn't going to have an impact on my life. It doesn't change our income, it doesn't change the oil in my car, it doesn't really do anything. I feel good for an evening and what do I care the next day? I don't. The pay off just isn't there for me.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 25, 2011)

Monroe said:


> The thing is, winning in sports isn't going to have an impact on my life. It doesn't change our income, it doesn't change the oil in my car, it doesn't really do anything. I feel good for an evening and what do I care the next day? I don't. The pay off just isn't there for me.



Professional Sports Pay You If You Win.


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## Langenschwert (Sep 25, 2011)

I like winning. But I enjoy the training even more.

One thing I've noticed is that the next best thing after pulling off a technique perfectly and whacking your opponent with it, is being on the receiving end of such a technique. It's a great learning experience. It's most satisfying when one of my students makes it work on me... it tells me I'm doing my job. Or that I suck worse every day. Hopefully it's the former and not the latter.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Monroe (Sep 25, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Professional Sports Pay You If You Win.



Did he say professional? I didn't see that.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 25, 2011)

Monroe said:


> Did he say professional? I didn't see that.


He Didnt Specify, Either.
Therefore, Sport is a Contextually General Term.


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## Monroe (Sep 25, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> He Didnt Specify, Either.
> Therefore, Sport is a Contextually General Term.



I'm used to seeing women's sports that generally haven't been a place to make money.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 25, 2011)

Monroe said:


> I'm used to seeing women's sports that generally haven't been a place to make money.



Then Refrain from Generalizing


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## Monroe (Sep 25, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Then Refrain from Generalizing



I'm not supposed to respond based on my own perspective? Have you seen the number of women who dropped out of sports in their teens? Clearly a lot of women agree that in sports, winning isn't important.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 25, 2011)

Monroe said:


> I'm not supposed to respond based on my own perspective? Have you seen the number of women who dropped out of sports in their teens? Clearly a lot of women agree that in sports, winning isn't important.



Generalising is basing that A: You Countered me Referring to Professional Sports; And B: That it was Subject to Womens Sports without Specifying as such until after.
Your Perspective is fine. But remember that only You know the Context in which you say something.


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## OKenpo942 (Sep 26, 2011)

I too am super competitive. to the point where it is a fault in some areas . However, I feel that it is my competitiveness that has gotten me to where I am today. I have accomplished many goals and achieved certain levels of skill because of my competitiveness. I also feel that because of others' will to be victorious or to be the best, I have had to push myself even more. I may never be THE best in an area, but because I strive to be, I can be the best that I can be. I think that is the most important thing. BE YOUR BEST.

I love the saying, "you are only as strong as your weakest link". I'll be damned if I am the weakest link. If every link strives to be the strongest or best, the weakest will at the very least be THEIR best.

Winning may not be the most important thing, but I believe that doing everything you can in order to be victorious is.If that makes sense.:ultracool


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## Nomad (Sep 26, 2011)

It's also interesting to me that this attitude of the all-importance of winning is not prevalent in many sports.  Very few people (ok, maybe some Kenyans) start training for a marathon or a triathlon thinking they're going to win it, nor is that the point of the training or performing in these type of events at all.  Instead, these competitions really stress the goal of self-improvement... you run your first marathon to prove to yourself that you can.  Subsequent events are often run to try to improve your personal time.  How everyone else does is fairly irrelevant to the vast majority of the people competing.

Elite runners who have a good chance at winning marathons rarely take the time to trash-talk their opponents either, for what it's worth.

I think many people approach their martial arts in a similar manner, where the emphasis is on self-improvement rather than number of victories.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 27, 2011)

Nomad said:


> Elite runners who have a good chance at winning marathons rarely take the time to trash-talk their opponents either, for what it's worth.
> 
> I think many people approach their martial arts in a similar manner, where the emphasis is on self-improvement rather than number of victories.


 Maybe runners don't trash talk - but just about every top athlete in sports that I'm interested in viewing, do it... in football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer, boxing, MMA, UFC, etc. Most brag, many trash talk - it's part of the game - to create interest and bigger audiences on PPV.

BTW: Does Zola Bud and Mary Decker bring back any memories? Lots of trash talking before and after the Olympic race took place... a race that neither of the two won.

In M/A - amateur or pro - winning is important... perhaps more so than in other sports. You win, you get to fight in bigger events, make money, get ads & commercials, become a movie star, etc, etc.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 27, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Maybe runners don't trash talk - but just about every top athlete in sports that I'm interested in viewing, do it... in football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer, boxing, MMA, UFC, etc. Most brag, many trash talk - it's part of the game - to create interest and bigger audiences on PPV.
> 
> BTW: Does Zola Bud and Mary Decker bring back any memories? Lots of trash talking before and after the Olympic race took place... a race that neither of the two won.
> 
> *In M/A - amateur or pro* - winning is important... perhaps more so than in other sports. You win, you get to fight in bigger events, make money, get ads & commercials, become a movie star, etc, etc.



Im just going to Off Topically Praise that you Specified it as being MA in their Amateur or Professional Variety, rather than Generalizing MA like Sports altogether.


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## Blade96 (Sep 29, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I'm always accussed of being over-competitive. I may very well be - I love nothing more than to win, at anything and everything I do. For me, there is no greater feeling in the world than winning, being best, victorious, champion.
> 
> Do you believe that winning is important or irrelevant? - Please explain your position. Thanks in advance



I believe that competition is more relevant than winning, because competition drives human civilization to get ahead and progress. Winning is a result  of competing and progressing. Its the competition that is the important one. and part of that is that people like to feel important. Look up dale carnegie. he writes about it too.


[/quote=jc]I just want to make an observation - Some of the BEST / GREATEST athletes in their individual sport - were all very competitive, very confident, and in many cases, they bragged... Muhamad Ali, Mike Tyson, $Money$ Maywheather, Roberto Duran, Brock Lesner, John Mcenroe, BJ Penn - Hell - most UFC fighters do it, even the not so good ones and many, many others. None of them ever said that "winning is not important" or "irrelevant". On the contrary, to most of them, it was the only thing.[/QUOTE]



JudoChampion said:


> Maybe runners don't trash talk - but just about every top athlete in sports that I'm interested in viewing, do it... in football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer, boxing, MMA, UFC, etc. Most brag, many trash talk - it's part of the game - to create interest and bigger audiences on PPV.
> 
> BTW: Does Zola Bud and Mary Decker bring back any memories? Lots of trash talking before and after the Olympic race took place... a race that neither of the two won.



Sean Avery has talent. Maybe if he spent more time actually playing his sport and less time trash talking, being a douche, and talking about sloppy seconds (look it up), he would show it more.  Trash talking can hurt you, not make you better.

And some great leaders don't even brag at all about good at sports and winning championships. They don't have to. Like Steve Yzerman. He doesn't brag.  Nobody likes a bragger. Its cocky. Its arrogant.

I like to compete. When I get a medal, I feel happy yes. But my reason for entering was to show people I overcame my balance problem. (Progression of people's thinking) And I did that. That's what competition is all about.


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## Buka (Sep 29, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Maybe runners don't trash talk - but just about every top athlete in sports that I'm interested in viewing, do it... in football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer, boxing, MMA, UFC, etc. Most brag, many trash talk - it's part of the game - to create interest and bigger audiences on PPV.
> 
> BTW: Does Zola Bud and Mary Decker bring back any memories? Lots of trash talking before and after the Olympic race took place... a race that neither of the two won.
> 
> In M/A - amateur or pro - winning is important... perhaps more so than in other sports. You win, you get to fight in bigger events, make money, get ads & commercials, become a movie star, etc, etc.



I STILL hate Zola Bud and I can't even blame her for what happened, but I'm still gonna hate her.


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 30, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> Nobody likes a bragger. Its cocky. Its arrogant.


 Muhamad Ali was the BIGGEST bragger, most cocky & arrogant athlete that ever lived - yet he has always been one of the most beloved, popular and admired athlete, of all time, through out the whole world. just saying 

On a different note: I spoke to my young students about this subject, and asked their opinion. Every single one of them (36) said winning is very important to them. Many of them laughed at me - when I presented them with the opposite scenario (irrelevant) - almost to the point of ridicule, for having done so. These are all children between 5 and 8 y/o.


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## Monroe (Sep 30, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Muhamad Ali was the BIGGEST bragger, most cocky & arrogant athlete that ever lived - yet he has always been one of the most beloved, popular and admired athlete, of all time, through out the whole world. just saying
> 
> On a different note: I spoke to my young students about this subject, and asked their opinion. Every single one of them (36) said winning is very important to them. Many of them laughed at me - when I presented them with the opposite scenario (irrelevant) - almost to the point of ridicule, for having done so. These are all children between 5 and 8 y/o.



That's not the reaction I've seen of my daughters soccer team. Is this regional? Or the parents that are choosing the class?


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## Champ-Pain (Sep 30, 2011)

Monroe said:


> That's not the reaction I've seen of my daughters soccer team. Is this regional? Or the parents that are choosing the class?


 I went as far as to say that it's not about winning, it's about enjoying what you are doing and having fun at it. Their reply... How can you enjoy and have fun - if you don't win? I tend to agree.


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## Monroe (Sep 30, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I went as far as to say that it's not about winning, it's about enjoying what you are doing and having fun at it. Their reply... How can you enjoy and have fun - if you don't win? I tend to agree.



They don't keep score at my daughter's soccer games. They are there to play with the ball.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 30, 2011)

Monroe said:


> They don't keep score at my daughter's soccer games. They are there to play with the ball.



This is were Generalizations come in again.

I.e., you should have said that to begin with. Noone is going to naturally assume your Daughters Soccer Games dont take Scores.
When you refer to a Soccer Team, you are referring to Soccer. Which is a Sport. What she is doing is a Recreational Variety.


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## Monroe (Oct 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> This is were Generalizations come in again.
> 
> I.e., you should have said that to begin with. Noone is going to naturally assume your Daughters Soccer Games dont take Scores.
> When you refer to a Soccer Team, you are referring to Soccer. Which is a Sport. What she is doing is a Recreational Variety.



Sport is a recreational activity.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2011)

Monroe said:


> Sport is a recreational activity.



Not Necessarily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreation
"*Recreation* is an activity of leisure, leisure being discretionary time.[SUP][1][/SUP] The "need to do something for recreation" is an essential element of human biology and psychology.[SUP][2][/SUP] Recreational activities are often done for enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure and are considered to be "fun". The term _recreation_ implies participation to be healthy refreshing mind and body."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport
"*Sport* is all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants. Sport may be competitive, where a winner or winners can be identified by objective means, and may require a degree of skill, especially at higher levels. Hundreds of sports exist, including those for a single participant, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as Some non-physical activities, such as board games and card gamesare sometimes referred to as sports, but a sport is generally recognised as being based in physical athleticism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_sport
"A *Combat sport*, also known as a *Fighting sport*, is a competitive contact sport where two combatants fight against each other using certain rules of engagement (usually significantly different from the rules in simulated combats meant for practice or challenge in martial arts), typically with the aim of simulating parts of real hand to hand combat. Boxing, kickboxing, amateur wrestling, mixed martial arts, Muay Thai and fencing are examples of combat sports."


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## chinto (Oct 1, 2011)

ok, sparring at a tournament, or in class? winning is not as important as learning something while doing it.   on the street? winning is SURVIVAL!!!!!!!! so on the street its everything!.


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## Carol (Oct 1, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I went as far as to say that it's not about winning, it's about enjoying what you are doing and having fun at it. Their reply... How can you enjoy and have fun - if you don't win? I tend to agree.




A few years after Mary Drecker and Zola Bud came one of the most memorable moments in Olympic track....and it wasn't from the guy who won.  Derek Redmond popped his hamstring.  He was done.  He lost.  Finito.  Yet he tried desperately to limp around the track.  Why? The medics were right there with a stretcher What inspired his dad to run out of the stands and help him around the track?   Why was dad melting with pride?




http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/94

I don't think Dick and Rick Hoyt have ever won a marathon or a triathalon.  Yet when the Boston Marathon brings them to downtown, the city explodes in cheers!  



"Dad, when we run, it feels like I'm not handicapped." -- Rick Hoyt

So why do they do it? Why does the city even give a damn?  Why do they keep going?  At 70 years old, does Dick race because he wants to win?

http://www.teamhoyt.com/about/index.html



Winning *is *important for sport.  The Boston Marathon wouldn't have anywhere near the prestige it does if no one ever timed the runners.   The Bruins winning the Stanley Cup wouldn't be anywhere near as exciting for the spectators or players if it wasn't a hard fought season.  The Olympics wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting if the competitors weren't trying for medals.  

But the Olympics also have the athletes with the infectious grin. They placed 17th or someplace way out of medal contention yet they leave with a huge smile on their face because they KNOW they gave it their all.  Its personal triumph.  Its possible for personal triumph and winning to be one and the same, but not always required.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2011)

Carol said:


> A few years after Mary Drecker and Zola Bud came one of the most memorable moments in Olympic track....and it wasn't from the guy who won.  Derek Redmond popped his hamstring.  He was done.  He lost.  Finito.  Yet he tried desperately to limp around the track.  Why? The medics were right there with a stretcher What inspired his dad to run out of the stands and help him around the track?   Why was dad melting with pride?
> 
> View attachment 15429
> 
> ...




...17th out of HOW many? I had to say that


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## Carol (Oct 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> ...17th out of HOW many? I had to say that



You missed my point.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2011)

Carol said:


> You missed my point.



Dont Worry, I didnt overlook your Point. But im sure No. 17 out of however many possble Dozens if not Hundreds, let alone getting INTO the Olympics at all is mighty glad as well ;D


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## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2011)

http://www.derekredmond.com/


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## Carol (Oct 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Dont Worry, I didnt overlook your Point. But im sure No. 17 out of however many possble Dozens if not Hundreds, let alone getting INTO the Olympics at all is mighty glad as well ;D



Exactly!  Or this fellow:




Kwame Nkrumah-Acheampong. Born in Glasgow, raised in Ghana.  He went to the Vancouver games, where he was the first person from Ghana to ever participate in any Winter Olympics!  

He finished 53rd out of 102 participants of whom 54 finished.  (Thanks Wiki!)  That's triumph.  You can see it in his eyes.


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## Carol (Oct 1, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> http://www.derekredmond.com/



Tez, there's a petition circulating for he and his dad to light the Olympic Flame for the London games 

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/redmonds2012


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2011)

Carol said:


> Exactly!  Or this fellow:
> 
> View attachment 15432
> 
> ...



Yes. And His Victory was being in those Games at all. And being a Finisher


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> What she is doing is a Recreational Variety.


 Yeap. Very different from a M/A event - Judo, Bjj, Boxing, Grappling, etc.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 1, 2011)

Monroe said:


> Sport is a recreational activity.


 A recreational activity that keeps score and has winners and losers.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 1, 2011)

There are definitely many momorable moments in sports, where winning was not the motivating factor, at all. A few have been mentioned above, by other members. All are wonderful and inspirational stories that actually go far beyond the sport itself. I completely agree that sometimes, on rare occations, these stories are heart warming and take presidence over the sport involved and the actual winner of such event. It does happen. However, these cases are NOT the norm, they are the exception to the rule. Playing a sport/game should be fun for the player/competitor. Winning said events should be, and in fact IS important to most of them, as well.


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## Monroe (Oct 1, 2011)

I've played plenty of sports and not bothered keeping score and enjoyed it. I think about the guys I spent how long skateboarding with. No one competed. We challenged ourselves all the time. I haven't bothered to learn the new point system in Badminton. When I play on occassion, I don't follow score. I'm not interested. 

I enjoy the adrenalin rushes, I enjoy getting to the point where I've practiced enough so it flows naturally. I like the focus and feeling my muscles work. 

I know plenty of women that aren't interested in competitive sports. They'll go to yoga, aerobics classes, jogging, swimming, etc.. I put up with competition. But I'd rather not. If the only point to MA/sports is competition, I can see why they lack women. Women can be competitive. But in the culture I see around me, I don't see many competitive women.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2011)

Monroe said:


> I've played plenty of sports and not bothered keeping score and enjoyed it. I think about the guys I spent how long skateboarding with. No one competed. We challenged ourselves all the time. I haven't bothered to learn the new point system in Badminton. When I play on occassion, I don't follow score. I'm not interested.
> 
> *Your Personal Preference.*
> 
> ...



And there are, indeed, less Competitive Women.
A; You are one of them.
B; They are not the Overall. There are Competitive Women. Just not as a Majority.
C; This Statistic cannot be Generalized to Sports, Overall. One Female Participation in Competitive Aspects of Competitive Sports.

And the "Only Point" to MA and Sports are not Competition. MA are Hostile by Nature, even if theyre Defensive. There is a Theme of Will to Victory, no matter what you Practice. Sports are Competitive by Nature. Some choose to Ignore that Aspect. And they are the Minority.

Even Non-Sportists; Look at the SHEER NUMBER of Football (Of the American or Australian Variety, incase Soccer pops into your Head for some reason) Fans. Cheering and Brawling over who will Win. And having a Good Drink and a Good Time. And thats just One Sport. With ALOT of Participants.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 1, 2011)

Monroe said:


> I've played plenty of sports and not bothered keeping score and enjoyed it. I think about the guys I spent how long skateboarding with. No one competed. We challenged ourselves all the time. I haven't bothered to learn the new point system in Badminton. When I play on occassion, I don't follow score. I'm not interested.


 I don't think anyone here is saying that you're wrong - for not keeping score, not learning the point system in badminton, or not competing. Please, don't tell me that I'm wrong for being competitive and having the belief that winning is important in whatever sport I choose to participate in. What works for you, may not work for me, and visa versa. We have opposing views on this topic - it doesn't make one right and the other wrong - just different.


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## Carol (Oct 1, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> There are definitely many momorable moments in sports, where winning was not the motivating factor, at all. A few have been mentioned above, by other members. All are wonderful and inspirational stories that actually go far beyond the sport itself. I completely agree that sometimes, on rare occations, these stories are heart warming and take presidence over the sport involved and the actual winner of such event. It does happen. However, these cases are NOT the norm, they are the exception to the rule. Playing a sport/game should be fun for the player/competitor. Winning said events should be, and in fact IS important to most of them, as well.



Not the norm, eh?  How many people ran a 5K race this weekend?  Or a half-marathon?  1 winner each race, everyone else went home defeated?  Migosh what a depressing view of sports.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 1, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I went as far as to say that it's not about winning, it's about enjoying what you are doing and having fun at it. Their reply... How can you enjoy and have fun - if you don't win? I tend to agree.



That is nonsense and psychologically damaging nonsense at that, given that nearly everyone in the world does not 'win' in a competitive environment that does not allow for success to be measured in more 'human' terms.  To not counter that mind-set in your students is setting them up to be ill equipped for when 'real life' comes calling.  

Maybe you should get some Kobra-Kai tee-shirts printed? {that would be a joke by the way, just in case my tiredness is making me less than transparent}.

What rank did you say you were again?  What organisation?  The art is TKD tho', right?  I mean no confrontational nastiness, I'm just too tired to go seeking for it now and the answers will amend my perceptions accordingly.

Actually, no, I shall be stern with myself, match-sticks in the eye-lids and have a look back through the thread .  Oh, the art is Judo {smacks own forehead hard as the clue is in the username and profile  :lol:}.  I am surprised in some ways, altho' I suppose the 'sport' background is similar to TKD, in the sense of the 'testing ground' being a competitive venue.

EDIT:  Just noticed your post No#90 earlier.  In the context of that, I do think you are wrong.  Maybe not for yourself, for that *is* your own choice.  But as I noted above, your are teaching others, who are very young, martial arts and it sounds like you are leaving out some key elements that are more to do with philosophy than physical 'success'.  I was in a school with such an attitude back in my Lau Gar days, where victory in competition (for the trophy cabinet) was all important.  That probably accounts for my unsympathetic view in these early hours .


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2011)

Carol said:


> Not the norm, eh?  How many people ran a 5K race this weekend?  Or a half-marathon?  1 winner each race, everyone else went home defeated?  Migosh what a depressing view of sports.



Ill just pitch that it also depends on the Sport


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## Chris Parker (Oct 2, 2011)

You know what, I'm a little bored. So I figure I'll throw something different in here....

Considering you (JC) have decided to post this in the "General Martial Arts" section, rather than the "Competitive Arts" section, I'm going to say that, in regards to competition and sport, sure, winning is the aim and therefore important (note: not all-important, but it is still what you strive towards... whether than means winning each time, or just improving and getting closer to the elusive win, the aim is to get to the top there, it's really how they're set up), however in martial arts, absolutely not. Martial arts have nothing to do with competition, winning, losing etc are not concepts that have any real place in their context.

I'll see if I can explain where I'm coming from here.

I have a background in a form of Karate that was developed specifically to win tournaments, as well as a form of TKD, which focused on a more competitive training approach; I've won and lost tournaments. And none of it has anything to do with what martial arts actually are. All they are, really, is the application of technical methods taken from martial arts in a competitive environment.

One big difference is in the mind set. It's not uncommon to hear, in competitive forms, that you need that "killer instinct", and that sounds all martial art-y, doesn't it? After all, martial arts are methods of violence and killing, aren't they? So you could hardly have a martial art without this "killer instinct", could you? Actually, yes. In fact, a "killer instinct" approach takes you away from a martial approach. It is limited, as it is only designed for a single approach, it is overly aggressive to the detriment of other options, and removes the other legitimate strategic approaches that any martial, or military methods require.

What's actually needed, when dealing more with the older, traditional martial arts, is not a "killer instinct", it's a "killer intention". Essentially, I don't give a damn about winning or losing, I care about killing you. My only intention is to kill you. My aim revolves around killing you. The only important thing is, you guessed it, killing you. When I come in as an attacker in my training, I am aiming to kill my partner (with control, but without remorse or concern for them on an emotional level that way). When I am the "defending" partner, I aim to kill my partner in the same way. 

"Winning" is thoroughly irrelevant if discussing martial arts. And yes, I know the context that you have been using it in, but as we are in the General section, perhaps a broader understanding could help you here.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> You know what, I'm a little bored. So I figure I'll throw something different in here....
> 
> Considering you (JC) have decided to post this in the "General Martial Arts" section, rather than the "Competitive Arts" section, I'm going to say that, in regards to competition and sport, sure, winning is the aim and therefore important (note: not all-important, but it is still what you strive towards... whether than means winning each time, or just improving and getting closer to the elusive win, the aim is to get to the top there, it's really how they're set up), however in martial arts, absolutely not. Martial arts have nothing to do with competition, winning, losing etc are not concepts that have any real place in their context.
> 
> ...



...People actually use the Competitive Arts Forum? *Dashes Off To The Boards Menu*

Also, Complete Agreement. Ill just add that in.


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## Jenna (Oct 2, 2011)

Carol said:


> Not the norm, eh?  How many people ran a 5K race this weekend?  Or a half-marathon?  1 winner each race, everyone else went home defeated?  Migosh what a depressing view of sports.


Exactly!  That is a hugely relevant point!  Winning the 1st prize and trophy is the aim for many competitors and but not all are capable of being number 1 for one reason and another.  And so competing for them is not about the trophy.

I do not think it is any kind of "new thinking" if I were to suggest that victory over oneself if often the biggest motivation to compete at any level.  Perhaps that entails beating a personal best and finishing in the highest position for oneself - and that is irrespective of winning the actual trophy.  

Also, sometimes the biggest and baddest opponent is oneself or the defeat of one's apportioned physical or mental limitation.  I have helped athletes with disability and to suggest to them that because they have not won they are losers (in any sense) is frankly absurd and verges on a derisory condescension that I despise. This applies to any competitor who has tried their best.  

My son and moreover, ANY student of mine in ANY discipline, martial arts or no, I will say to them - your best is ALWAYS good enough for me.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Carol said:


> Not the norm, eh?
> 
> How many people ran a 5K race this weekend?  Or a half-marathon?
> 
> ...


 No - not the norm.

I have no idea.

Your words, not mine.

Again, your words, not mine.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> That is nonsense and psychologically damaging nonsense at that, given that nearly everyone in the world does not 'win' in a competitive environment that does not allow for success to be measured in more 'human' terms.  To not counter that mind-set in your students is setting them up to be ill equipped for when 'real life' comes calling.
> 
> Maybe you should get some Kobra-Kai tee-shirts printed? {that would be a joke by the way, just in case my tiredness is making me less than transparent}.
> 
> ...


 I don't really understand much of your post - a lot of rumbling.  

Judo, JiuJitsu, No-Gi - Sandan, USA Judo certified instructor/coach (intercontinental). I run a very competitive M/A school, among the best jr teams in the USA. A combined 28 medals last year (2010) at the jr Olympics (8 GOLD) & jr US Open (7 GOLD) - more than any other team in the US. I also have the distinct honor of having the only "pure Judo" school, to win the BEST team award at any NAGA event. All with students 13 years old or younger. I don't advertise, yet my classes are full. Why? Because my students win at competition - and when others see good results, they want to be part of that winning team, as well. I love what I do, and I enjoy doing it. Having a successful team, with students that win consistently -  makes it fun, as well.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> You know what, I'm a little bored. So I figure I'll throw something different in here....
> 
> Considering you (JC) have decided to post this in the "General Martial Arts" section, rather than the "Competitive Arts" section, I'm going to say that, in regards to competition and sport, sure, winning is the aim and therefore important (note: not all-important, but it is still what you strive towards... whether than means winning each time, or just improving and getting closer to the elusive win, the aim is to get to the top there, it's really how they're set up), however in martial arts, absolutely not. Martial arts have nothing to do with competition, winning, losing etc are not concepts that have any real place in their context.
> 
> ...


 Chris: I have already explained (several times) that I only teach the competitive aspect of M/A - (Sport M/A) - NOT the ancient, traditional M/A - where you fight to the death. I run a busuness - NOT the armed forces.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 2, 2011)

JC, I'm more than familiar with your approach, both from here and from MAP, however you put forth a thread asking if winning was important, or irrelevant, in the General Martial Arts section. Therefore, honestly, what you teach is only relevant to your own perspective on martial arts, not on anyone else's. To that end I was putting forth a view based on a far broader understanding and range of experience in martial arts. Kay?


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## Sukerkin (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I don't really understand much of your post - a lot of rumbling.



:chuckles:  That happens to me when I'm nearly asleep in my keyboard.  Apologies.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> JC, you put forth a thread asking if winning was important, or irrelevant, in the General Martial Arts section. Therefore, honestly, what you teach is only relevant to your own perspective on martial arts, not on anyone else's. To that end I was putting forth a view based on a far broader understanding and range of experience in martial arts. Kay?


 Kay - perhaps I posted this thread on the wrong section, my bad - but why keep talking about oranges - when the topic is about apples? 

I'm posting about the importance of winning at M/A competition, or sports in general - NOT a kill or be killed - battle to the death. There is a BIG difference.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Chris: I have already explained (several times) that I only teach the competitive aspect of M/A - (Sport M/A) - NOT the ancient, traditional M/A - where you fight to the death. I run a busuness - NOT the armed forces.



Training to be able to Fight to the Death is Comparable to the Armed Forces?

So... Training with every Approach geared towards being rather Lethal would be...
Good to Know!


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Jenna said:


> I have helped athletes with disability and to suggest to them that because they have not won they are losers (in any sense) is frankly absurd and verges on a derisory condescension that I despise. This applies to any competitor who has tried their best.
> 
> My son and moreover, ANY student of mine in ANY discipline, martial arts or no, I will say to them - your best is ALWAYS good enough for me.


 I'm making the suggestion that winning in sports is important - and I've made no defamatory statements about those who don't win - I most certainly have not called anyone a loser. I understand that sometimes, on rare occations, some people gain more from a loss than they do from a win. I'm not arguing with such point of view... and I also tell my students "your best effort is ALWAYS good enough for me"... WIN or LOSE.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Training to be able to Fight to the Death is Comparable to the Armed Forces?


 NOBODY I know trains to fight to the death, although, I suspect most people can do so, if forced into such a situation, without any other choice - whether they train in M/A or not.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> NOBODY I know trains to fight to the death, although, I suspect most people can do so, if forced into such a situation, without any other choice - whether they train in M/A or not.



It depends on the Style, then.
To be fair, since you Train a Competition Geared Form, you likely associate with Competition Geared People.

I was mainly saying that, because by those Standards, ive never Trained somewere that DIDNT Emphasise being as Effective as Possible. Lethal or Non Lethal. With everything able to be Geared into Lethal at a moments notice.

Which is why it interests Me that Youd Relate that theme to the Armed Forces


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## Jenna (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> and I also tell my students "your best effort is ALWAYS good enough for me"... WIN or LOSE.


Then in competition, why is it important to win?

Is not the most important thing to compete?


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## Monroe (Oct 2, 2011)

*@ judochampion* - Parents looking to have their kids win are probably prone to going to your school. If I was looking for a school for my kids to learn MA, I'd be put off by an emphasis on winning. 

No one's changing their mind here. Look at how many people simply don't participate in sports at all. If we want to see more people participate, I doubt emphasizing the importance of winning is going to encourage a lot of people.


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## Carol (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> No - not the norm.
> 
> I have no idea.
> 
> ...



Your words were:



JudoChampion said:


> Why else would you compete, then? For  fun? It's much more fun when you win, IMHO... losing sux! What is "the  point"?



So of all the people that competed in something this weekend, and didn't win....  (fill in the blank).

Go ahead, fill in the blank with your own words.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Then in competition, why is it important to win?
> 
> Is not the most important thing to compete?


 I'll ask my students during class tomorrow - why it's important to win... I'm pretty sure it has something to do with feeling good about yourself when you win, and the fact that winning is much more fun and enjoyable than losing - under almost every circumstances, with very few exceptions.

If you don't believe it is important to win - why do you feel it is important to compete, at all?


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Carol said:


> Your words were:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Simple. Better luck next time.  My words were "Losing Sux" with NO reference or mention about those who do so.


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## Blindside (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I'll ask my students during class tomorrow - why it's important to win... I'm pretty sure it has something to do with feeling good about yourself when you win, and the fact that winning is much more fun and enjoyable than losing - under almost every circumstances, with very few exceptions.
> 
> If you don't believe it is important to win - why do you feel it is important to compete, at all?



To test yourself against strangers rather than dojo-mates.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Blindside said:


> To test yourself against strangers rather than dojo-mates.


 A test you will try to pass, by winning. No?


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## mograph (Oct 2, 2011)

(in competition, not "the street") 
It's all about self-gratification -- getting the dopamine hit.
I get it by performing well. That's primary.
I'd rather lose by performing well, rather than win by performing badly. 
In the long run, improving is more important to me than winning. _Improving_ gives me the dopamine hit. I want to be better than I was last time.
If the thought of winning motivates you to perform well, then that's your means to our end.

I interpret Blindside's point of view of the test as: _evaluation_. Not a binary "win/lose" evaluation, but one more on a continuum of value, comparing current performance to memory of past performance and expectations of future performance. 

No attachments. 
Mushin.


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## shima (Oct 2, 2011)

Blindside said:


> To test yourself against strangers rather than dojo-mates.



And when it comes to sparring we all get far too used to sparring w/ the same people in class and being able to predict their fighting style and what they'll do generally. It's essential if you want to become a better fighter to spar in a tournament (or at least visit another school and spar them there). Winning isn't necessarily the goal, improving is. 

Likewise I find that the students who compete have far better looking kata's than those who don't. That's because the incentive to win drives them to practice and fine tune their kata far more than if they're just doing it for class to pass a test. It's like taking the SAT's or something, if you just take them because you have to do you'll do ok... if you take them because you're trying to get into Harvard, you're going to study harder and as a result do a lot better. Competing raises the bar for practice.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Maybe I've used the wrong word - when I posted winning is important. I suspect that in the great scheme of things, it's nowhere near the top of important things in a real life scenario. It still remains much more fun and enjoyable to win than it is to lose, at anything. It serves as a motivator, confidense & self esteem builder, gives a sense of worth, puts a smile on our faces, a spring in our walk and lots of other wonderful feelings that make us happy and proud of our accomplishments... 

... but I'd rather be one of the Jamaican bob-sled team members that made it to the Olympics, in a puff of smoke, several years ago.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 2, 2011)

An interesting perspective there, *Shima*.

I think, as *JC* has been trying to reiterate, that it depends upon the art and what your aims are in practising that art.  

In a sense this loops around to the old sparring-or-kata debate as to which is the better for learning technique i.e. doing the technique full power and full speed but without a literal opponent or doing the technique 'wrongly' but with a resisting opponent.

That competition teaches you to perform the techniques your art improperly (and outright forbids the use of some) cannot really be gainsaid, so the discourse then becomes whether there is something to be obtained from competition that counterbalances that derailing of training.  I think (and I don't want to put words in his mouth) what JC is saying that what you get from competition is that the drive towards 'winning' and the transitory fillip of self-esteem that comes from that if you do win encourages you to try ever harder to get that feeling again.  

What many of the rest of us have been saying is that that apparent prize is of little value to a martial artist whose aim is not 'sport'.  However, in the context of someone who *consciously* knows that what they are doing is sport and is thus down a very different path than a practitioner who is training for reasons of self-improvement or self-defence, then, on reflection, I think he may have a point.  

It's just very alien to my mindset of what martial-arts are supposed to be and so it is harder for me to accept it as valid as compared to holding such a mindset when playing something like table-tennis competitively.  It doesn't mean he's wrong but it does mean that, within my terms of reference, *I* think he's wrong to put winning at the top of the list rather than as a pleasant adjunct to the other things that I feel to be more important about training in a martial art.

EDIT:  JC posted whilst I was typing away and I wholeheartedly agree with what he said {post #116}.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 2, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> An interesting perspective there, *Shima*.
> 
> I think, as *JC* has been trying to reiterate, that it depends upon the art and what your aims are in practising that art.
> 
> ...


 You know, sometimes I say something - and it sounds like something else, when interpreted by others. I'm certainly very happy that you understand my point of view, even if you don't agree with it... 

... We don't have to agree - only to understand and respect one another.


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## Blindside (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> A test you will try to pass, by winning. No?



Sure, if I compete at something I try to win, but the real object is to learn something.  I found with my old kenpo school, those students that competed regularly in tournaments generally did better in class, tested better, advanced faster.  They didn't have to be winning students, but the experience they got prepping for and competing in tournament paid dividends for the rest of their martial experience.


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## Monroe (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I'll ask my students during class tomorrow - why it's important to win... I'm pretty sure it has something to do with feeling good about yourself when you win, and the fact that winning is much more fun and enjoyable than losing - under almost every circumstances, with very few exceptions.
> 
> If you don't believe it is important to win - why do you feel it is important to compete, at all?



Enjoying a game/sport/exercise. I enjoy feeling my body work. I enjoy the effort. Don't you enjoy bursts of adrenalin?


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## Monroe (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> ... but I'd rather be one of the Jamaican bob-sled team members that made it to the Olympics, in a puff of smoke, several years ago.



It's always fun to surprise people. 

I want to learn and improve, for exercise and self-defence. But I want to enjoy myself in the process. I'm not enjoying myself when I focus on competition. I find the whole thing distracting. In school I was excused from timed exams (for learning disability). I actually completed exams within the time limits regular exams were done. But taking the timer off helped me focus and I eventually learned how to stop focusing the clock and focus on the questions. By college I didn't sign up for my exemption. I can compete, I can test, I don't enjoy it. I like to win, but the stress kills most of the joy. I'd rather enjoy myself than worry about winning. I already tend to put a lot of pressure on myself and worry too much. I don't need more stress.


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## Carol (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> If you don't believe it is important to win - why do you feel it is important to compete, at all?



Competing is fun!!   

That's the main reason....everything else is just gravy.   Competing demands more, and offers more than just getting out there.  There's the discipline of committing to a schedule, and extra motivation for your workouts.  As a racer, I'll be ranked and categorized by age and handicap.  I get to see if I improve or not.

The big difference between how I compete and how you compete is that you're in an environment that's very....binary.  Whether boxing, judo, muay thai, MMA...one person against another.  One winner, one loser.   Winner advances to whatever comes next, loser ices their bruises knowing the what comes next is to regroup and retry.  I think winning means more in that environment.  There is certainly more on the line, and its a lot more personal!  I don't even get a chance to meet many people in my age bracket, they are scattered around the country.  The sport is dominated by younger people.

I like encouraging people to get out on the slopes and enjoy the gorgeous New England countryside.  It saddens me when I see ladies my age, and their participation is mostly watching their kids compete.  While I wish there were more 40-somethings out there with me, its kind of cool when some of the parents come talk to me and ask me if I have kids racing, and I say no, its just me out there, and I get a chance to say.you can do this too! Racing isn't just for the young and/or super-fit, there's room on the course for people of all ages and fitness levels.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2011)

Now Ill actually state My Full Opinion, now that I no longer need to withhold it for the sake of Debate.

Id prefer to Win. Not for the sake of Competition, but because I feel that the WILL to WIN is a Factor in maintaining Control. The same Control thatll let you keep resisting whilst youre being choked by someones Shin, and either get them off with Brute Force, or Fight Back as long as you can manage.

Will to Win, or more accurately, Will to Overcome your Opponent; I consider to be Imperative.
In Martial Arts overall.

Competitions are a bit different.
Competitions are Competitive; And Competitors Compete.
Why wouldnt you want to Win, as a Main Goal? Its not like you dont Spar wherever You Train, anyway.
Competitions are designed especially for that Contrast.

So in Short:
In MA: Will To Overcome Your Opponent.
In Sport Bouts: Will To Win.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 2, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Kay - perhaps I posted this thread on the wrong section, my bad - but why keep talking about oranges - when the topic is about apples?
> 
> I'm posting about the importance of winning at M/A competition, or sports in general - NOT a kill or be killed - battle to the death. There is a BIG difference.


 
Yes, you are. But just because you started the thread that doesn't mean that you can control the direction it takes, nor does it invalidate my perspective on things. The topic is not apples, they are your reference point.



JudoChampion said:


> NOBODY I know trains to fight to the death.



Then consider yourself introduced to someone who does.


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## elder999 (Oct 3, 2011)

In the first place, there are more than a few of us who train in bladed "martial arts," or in martial arts that don't have a "competitive sport" aspect-many of us train pretty strictly for "self-defense." Interestingly, though, from my perspective, anyway, winning is the most important thing in this kind of training: a win is when you get to walk away, or, best of all, don't have to strive at all to walk away, because there was no contest to begin with.

However, I'm also pretty competitive-I certainly didn't go on JEOPARDY! looking to lose-I wanted to win :lfao: . That doesn't mean that the experience had no value, either-I fulfilled that part of a lifelong dream, just by making the show.

Likewise, while I had some victories in my competitive martial arts days, I'm no athlete-in fact, I'm something of a congenital klutz. What victories I did have came from lessons learned from much more numerous losses. The competitions themselves were fun, though. These days, most of my competition is in races: marathons, triathlons and ultras. I've never really been much of a runner, though-I have deformed feet, not debilitating or crippling, but not the best for running, and a congenital lung defect which is just starting to become somewhat debilitating at this point in my life. I have no hope of ever winning any race-I might win my age group if the right people don't bother showing up, and I've won when there were _Clysedale_ divisions, that is, divisions for those of us who weigh more than 200 lbs., but I've never placed anywhere near the top 50% of all runners-pretty far from it, in fact. In this instance, "winning" is completely irrelevant. Every race finished, especially at distances longer than a marathon, is a win for me.


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## Blade96 (Oct 3, 2011)

about the 2010 olympics, The girl who won in female figure skating singles was a teen from Korea. She was beautiful, but the most memorable one was Joannie Rochette, from my country. Heck, I don't even remember the korean girl's name or even what she looks like. But Rochette is different. Her mom died just as she was going to compete. Must have been so hard for her, but she did it anyway. She won an award for that and being such an inspiration to millions. She got bronze btw. 

Shows that gold medalists and the so called 'winners' arent always the best known or most memorable. Winning comes in different forms.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 3, 2011)

Blindside said:


> I found with my old kenpo school, those students that competed regularly in tournaments generally did better in class, tested better, advanced faster.  They didn't have to be winning students, but the experience they got prepping for and competing in tournament paid dividends for the rest of their martial experience.


 Agreed. I've found that those same students - not only do better in class, test better and advance faster - they also make those around them (training partners) better as well (in my experience).


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 3, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> (1)  But just because you started the thread that doesn't mean that you can control the direction it takes.
> 
> 
> 
> (2) Then consider yourself introduced to someone who does.


 (1) Nor will I allow you to do so, either... unless your a MOD, then I have no choice. 

(2) OK - Mr. - Ninja/Samurai assassin.  Nice to meet you.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 3, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> Winning comes in different forms.


 Agreed!


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## Cyriacus (Oct 3, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> (1) Nor will I allow you to do so, either... unless your a MOD, then I have no choice.
> 
> (2) OK - Mr. - Ninja/Samurai assassin.  Nice to meet you.



Oh, right. Introducing yourself to People who Train to Kill.

...Wheres MY Introduction?


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## Carol (Oct 4, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Oh, right. Introducing yourself to People who Train to Kill.
> 
> ...Wheres MY Introduction?


 
 Cyriacus -- notorious for capital(ization) murder ...  
*runs for cover*

Sorry...couldn't resist...

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Cyriacus (Oct 4, 2011)

Carol said:


> Cyriacus -- notorious for capital(ization) murder ...
> *runs for cover*
> 
> Sorry...couldn't resist...
> ...



Huggles?


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## Blade96 (Oct 4, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Agreed!



  so nice when we agree xD


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## Chris Parker (Oct 4, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> (1) Nor will I allow you to do so, either... unless your a MOD, then I have no choice.
> 
> (2) OK - Mr. - Ninja/Samurai assassin.  Nice to meet you.



First off, Angel, I wasn't controlling the conversation, I was providing an alternate view of martial arts for the conversation to go in other directions. Secondly, this isn't MAP, I'd recommend against the passive aggressive taunts. You've already been bounced from how many forums for such behaviour?

Kay? Kay.


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## Carol (Oct 4, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Huggles?



  Huggles


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 4, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> First off, Angel, I wasn't controlling the conversation, I was providing an alternate view of martial arts for the conversation to go in other directions. Secondly, this isn't MAP, I'd recommend against the passive aggressive taunts. You've already been bounced from how many forums for such behaviour?<br>
> <br>
> Kay? Kay.


 Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest. You have NO clue what really transpired behind the scenes. Furthermore, it is you who is getting aggressive and taunting me, unsuccessfully, in all your replies to all my posts. Your "warrior assassin" view of yourself is comical to me - so please don't try to bully me here on MT, or anywhere else, it won't work... and I would recommend that you not come around my neighborhood with all that attitude in your pocket, holding that rather large chip on your shoulder. You may have to walk away with neither, if you walk away, at all. 

If I had a problem with a certain member, for whatever reason, as you appear to have with me - I'd ignore their threads & posts, rather than reply negatively to each and every one of them, as you appear to be doing. You don't like me? So you're making it hard for me to like you? Let it go bro - there are far more important things in life to worry about, than the importance or irrelevance of winning, really. YOU WIN! Kay? Kay.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 4, 2011)

Gentlemen, it might be better if those unpleasant attitudes got themselves tucked away.  Past histories between members on other boards is of no interest to us here at MT unless it becomes a cause of behaviour we'd rather not see.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor

N.B.  For the benefit of JC, who might not know, when you see a post by either a Moderator or a Mentor that is 'signed' as above, that means it is an 'official voice' being used as opposed to the more usual 'private voice' that we use when posting our own opinions.  From a Mentor it is a strong suggestion rather than the more direct instruction it is from a Moderator but one tends to lead to the other if things do not improve.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 4, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest. You have NO clue what really transpired behind the scenes. Furthermore, it is you who is getting aggressive and taunting me, unsuccessfully, in all your replies to all my posts. Your "warrior assassin" view of yourself is comical to me - so please don't try to bully me here on MT, or anywhere else, it won't work... and I would recommend that you not come around my neighborhood with all that attitude in your pocket, holding that rather large chip on your shoulder. You may have to walk away with neither, if you walk away, at all.
> 
> If I had a problem with a certain member, for whatever reason, as you appear to have with me - I'd ignore their threads & posts, rather than reply negatively to each and every one of them, as you appear to be doing. You don't like me? So you're making it hard for me to like you? Let it go bro - there are far more important things in life to worry about, than the importance or irrelevance of winning, really. YOU WIN! Kay? Kay.



...You do realise that its you who called him a Warrior Assassin, right?


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 5, 2011)

Sorry, Mark, just gotta deal with this little one first. My apologies.



JudoChampion said:


> Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest. You have NO clue what really transpired behind the scenes. Furthermore, it is you who is getting aggressive and taunting me, unsuccessfully, in all your replies to all my posts. Your "warrior assassin" view of yourself is comical to me - so please don't try to bully me here on MT, or anywhere else, it won't work... and I would recommend that you not come around my neighborhood with all that attitude in your pocket, holding that rather large chip on your shoulder. You may have to walk away with neither, if you walk away, at all.
> 
> If I had a problem with a certain member, for whatever reason, as you appear to have with me - I'd ignore their threads & posts, rather than reply negatively to each and every one of them, as you appear to be doing. You don't like me? So you're making it hard for me to like you? Let it go bro - there are far more important things in life to worry about, than the importance or irrelevance of winning, really. YOU WIN! Kay? Kay.



Angel, I'm not "judging" you for anything here or elsewhere other than your behaviour, examples of which are coming through here. I am advising that you check your responces before you end up the same way here than you have in other places. Lecturing me on "attitude" after your posting history is rather rich, though, don't you think? How many threads have you started about your interactions with other members around the place? Hmm, we'll come back to a few aspects of this...

When it comes to my "warrior/assassin" view of myself, uh, where did you get that from? I train in old systems where the aim is to kill the other person, end of story. There is no competitive aspect, both the Uchidachi and Shidachi (attacking and defending partners) are trying to kill each other during the training, if it's being done properly. The attacks are designed to kill, and the responces are the same. If that very part is missing, then the training loses it's value and purpose; there is no concept of winning, nor of losing, aside from the idea of losing your life. It is this very mindset that is the crucible for development in these arts, giving you a psychologically high-stress situation, much higher than in competitive sports. All I have done is to put forth that as an alternative, which you have simply decided doesn't fit what you want the thread to be about, so you've ignored such comments from myself, Mark, and others.

Tell you what, here's an example of the training I'm talking about:





Now, this is an Embu, a public demonstration, the training is a lot scarier, as if you don't move in time, you get smashed in the head, or get your fingers broken by a solid lump of oak... and the aim is to have it miss you by as little distance and time as possible - but the point here is that this is martial arts training, and in this "winning" is completely irrelevant. 

And, if we look at your original post, we see that that's all you really asked about:



JudoChampion said:


> I'm always accussed of being over-competitive. I may very well be - I love nothing more than to win, at anything and everything I do. For me, there is no greater feeling in the world than winning, being best, victorious, champion.
> 
> *Do you believe that winning is important or irrelevant? - Please explain your position. Thanks in advance*



You know, that's all I did... I said that, in martial arts training, not competition, it's thoroughly irrelevant, and I explained my position. Your responce was basically "that's not what I'm talking about, so it's irrelevant". My point was that your perspective is rather limited when it comes to martial arts, and the variety that's out there, as well as the variety of reasons that people train, which is evidenced by your posts, so I was providing you with a broader viewpoint. You do get that that's how these discussions work, yeah?

But, of course, it's not just with me. Mark (Sukerkin) made similar comments, and your responce was to dismiss his comments as well:



Sukerkin said:


> From the standpoint of Japanese arts, particularly armed ones, winning or losing truly are irrelevant. To consider either of them is to lose _mushin_.





JudoChampion said:


> OK - I understand. Maybe you don't, so I'll say it again.
> 
> I'm talking about "SPORTS" winning - none of which is intended to be played / fought to the death.
> 
> I gave what I thought to be a great and valid point on winning, bringing a region together (blah-blah-blah), when all else has failed. I guess you don't believe that's ever happened before - I'm making it up?



It's these passive aggressive methods that I'm cautioning you against, Angel. MT is far more stringently moderated than MAP, or other forums, so be careful what you say and how you say it.



JudoChampion said:


> Now, I'm thinking. Are those who say it is not important, doing so because they've never been good at competition? - Perhaps it's the, how can something I'm not very good at be important to me, mentality? Maybe fear of the unknown and/or failure, so I won't even compete, to keep myself from failing? I don't know, but sometimes it seems as though, the folks saying that "winning is unimportant" - probably didn't win very often, some may have never won at all.


 
When it comes to controlling the discussion or not, you have tried to do that multiple times, including the above comments to Mark, the same ones to myself, and the following to Bill Mattocks. That is you trying to control the discussion, rather than allow it to move into areas that you are not so versed in, or that could possibly contradict or challenge your take on things. Not the sign of a truly confident person, I must say.



JudoChampion said:


> You are obviously a man of principle, no doubt. *Keep in mind, I'm only talking about sports winning - nothing else.*
> 
> I thank and commend you for your service to this great country we live in. It's folks like yourself that make it so great to begin with.



That is you trying to control the discussion, rather than allow it to move into areas that you are not so versed in, or that could possibly contradict or challenge your take on things. Not the sign of a truly confident person, I must say.



JudoChampion said:


> Now, I'm thinking. *Are those who say it is not important, doing so because they've never been good at competition? - Perhaps it's the, how can something I'm not very good at be important to me, mentality? Maybe fear of the unknown and/or failure, so I won't even compete, to keep myself from failing? *I don't know, but sometimes it seems as though, the folks saying that "winning is unimportant" - probably didn't win very often, some may have never won at all.





JudoChampion said:


> I'm just saying that those who are on top of whatever world they sit on - will almost always be competitive, proud and often times loud - with few exceptions... and will do whatever possible to win. *On the other hand, those who are not very good at sports, whatever sport it may be they participate in, and rarely, if ever, find themselves on a podium receiving an award - will almost always deny the importance of winning (in sport)* - with very few exceptions... and in fact, will often avoid competition altogether.
> 
> What does that say to you?



When it comes to the above, all it shows is a very shallow take on personal values. I was very good at the competitive side of things, but have no interest in it at all. The implication that it's sour grapes on the part of anyone who isn't good at sports is childish, frankly. You're basically saying that if people don't agree with you, then that just means they couldn't "cut it" in your world... but we'll get to your world in a little bit.



JudoChampion said:


> Maybe runners don't trash talk - but* just about every top athlete in sports that I'm interested in viewing*, do it... in football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer, boxing, MMA, UFC, etc. Most brag, many trash talk - it's part of the game - to create interest and bigger audiences on PPV.
> 
> BTW: Does Zola Bud and Mary Decker bring back any memories? Lots of trash talking before and after the Olympic race took place... a race that neither of the two won.
> 
> In M/A - amateur or pro - winning is important... perhaps more so than in other sports. You win, you get to fight in bigger events, make money, get ads & commercials, become a movie star, etc, etc.



Honestly, I think the biggest clue to your take on things (and your personality here) was in the post on why you value winning... you basically said in four different ways "it feeds my ego". That then comes through in your entire posting style, essentially that if it's not something you're interested in, or something that fits what you want things to be, the discussion to be, or similar, it's not wanted here. Again, not the sign of a confident personality.



JudoChampion said:


> Muhamad Ali was the BIGGEST bragger, most cocky & arrogant athlete that ever lived - yet he has always been one of the most beloved, popular and admired athlete, of all time, through out the whole world. just saying
> 
> On a different note: I spoke to my young students about this subject, and asked their opinion. Every single one of them (36) said winning is very important to them. Many of them laughed at me - when I presented them with the opposite scenario (irrelevant) - almost to the point of ridicule, for having done so. These are all children between 5 and 8 y/o.


 


JudoChampion said:


> I went as far as to say that it's not about winning, it's about enjoying what you are doing and having fun at it. Their reply... How can you enjoy and have fun - if you don't win? I tend to agree.



Right, "your world". There are a range of threads elsewhere that I could link, but the important thing to recognise here is that you teach kids, teens at the most. Kids are highly malleable, and it's hardly surprising that, given your views, and the way you have treated the kids, that they'd come back with the type of thing that you are saying yourself. You taught them, didn't you? I'd be surprised if the kids you taught didn't come back with a reflection of your values... that's kinda what Mark was getting at earlier when he mentioned the Kobra Kai Dojo (that's a Karate Kid reference, the original, by the way) in the post you referred to as "a lot of rumbling". Essentially, a highly aggressive, and psychologically damaged and damaging instructor guides his students with the mantra "STRIKE FIRST, STRIKE HARD, NO MERCY SIR!!", along with teachings like "We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition: A man confronts you, he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy." and "Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it?... Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it?.... DEFEAT does not exist in this dojo, does it?" "NO SENSEI!!!" 

Basically, the lesson is that the instructor was consumed by this win-at-all-costs attitude, and he was dragging his students down with him, leading them to be aggressive thugs and bullies. They followed the Sensei's lead, good or bad. And when it comes to yourself, there are a range of less-than impressive credentials that you have put around the place, with you essentially living vicariously through the victories of the 6, 7, and 8 year old kids that you put in competitions... so how important is winning to you, if you don't compete yourself? 



JudoChampion said:


> Why? My opinion may not be agreed with, by many - but my arguement does have some real merit and valid points. Although not many members of MT agree with my point of view, I assure you, there are many others who do.
> 
> BTW: Nothing I've posted is false or made up - and none of it has been shown to be incorrect...



Hmm, nothing false? Are you sure about that?



JudoChampion said:


> Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest.



http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97850




> I've been banned at other forums (more than one) for unknown reasons, NO explanation or motive that I can think of... sometimes I was attacked and gangged up on repeatedly by members who did not agree with my views, opinions or ways, often the mods would join in and harrass me as well... and then BAN me.



And that's not getting into the whole "I haven't tried to control the discussion" thing.

Seriously, Angel, my main point is simple. When someone comes in with a perspective or opinion that is contrary to yours, or challenging to yours, take the time to learn and listen, rather than just dismiss it out of hand. And cool that ego, it's doing you no favours.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 5, 2011)

It appears that I'm saying one thing and you are hearing something else - and taking my comments out of context. I'll let it go. Ego cooled - I'm moving on. Thanks


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 5, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> ...You do realise that its you who called him a Warrior Assassin, right?


 What do you call someone who trains in "how to kill"?


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 5, 2011)

"Serious."


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 5, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> What do you call someone who trains in "how to kill"?


Im inclined to Agree with "Serious".
Or Traditional.
Or a Martial Artist. Its the Martial Art that does the Training and sets the Syllabus; The Trainee is always a Martial Artist.
Some Martial Arts still teach you to Employ Lethal Force.


----------



## elder999 (Oct 5, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> "Serious."


.

[yt]Wok_qezGCpQ[/yt]


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 5, 2011)

elder999 said:


> .
> 
> [yt]Wok_qezGCpQ[/yt]


Im just trying to work out how he went from being Under a Staircase, to being in the Ceiling. On the other side of the Building.


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 5, 2011)

elder999 said:


> .
> 
> [yt]Wok_qezGCpQ[/yt]



Nice. I was expecting this one:






Some may say it's closer to reality for me.... I'm not saying anything, other than I'm a man of my word.....


----------



## The Last Legionary (Oct 5, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest. You have NO clue what really transpired behind the scenes. Furthermore, it is you who is getting aggressive and taunting me, unsuccessfully, in all your replies to all my posts. Your "warrior assassin" view of yourself is comical to me - so please don't try to bully me here on MT, or anywhere else, it won't work... and I would recommend that you not come around my neighborhood with all that attitude in your pocket, holding that rather large chip on your shoulder. You may have to walk away with neither, if you walk away, at all.
> 
> If I had a problem with a certain member, for whatever reason, as you appear to have with me - I'd ignore their threads & posts, rather than reply negatively to each and every one of them, as you appear to be doing. You don't like me? So you're making it hard for me to like you? Let it go bro - there are far more important things in life to worry about, than the importance or irrelevance of winning, really. YOU WIN! Kay? Kay.



Before you "quit" here too, I think you should reread the rules. You have read them right? You didn't just check the box that said you read them but didn't read them? Only stupid pooperheads do that. When are you sending me my pony? It's in there.  Section 1.8. Read it. Then send me my pony.

Winning. Define it. Then I'll tell you if it's important. Never mind. I'll do that for you. I'm always doing this extra work. Winning is of supreme importance. I always win. I have never lost in my life. I will never ever lose. I will always win. Even on the day that I die, I will beat the doctors best efforts to keep me alive. 

Now, if we're talking about winning some stupid contest, where you see if I can hit you in the accepted spots, while ignoring actual effective techniques, so that some guy raises a flag and yells "point!", while a bunch of mouth breathers who think Power Rangers is real karate, who cares? That is irrelevant. Might be fun. Might make you think you're something with a wall full of trophies. But it doesn't make you a 'martial artist' any more than scoring a touchdown in hockey does.  Can you tell I think competitions are a joke? Am I being too subtle again?  I can be more blunt. Winning a competition where the prize is a little medal you wear or trophy you display is irrelevant. Winning a life or death struggle is important. Knowing the difference between the too? Priceless.  For everything else, there's LegionaryCard. (TM)


----------



## The Last Legionary (Oct 5, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> What do you call someone who trains in "how to kill"?


A Martial Artist.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 5, 2011)

The Last Legionary said:


> Before you "quit" here too, I think you should reread the rules. You have read them right? You didn't just check the box that said you read them but didn't read them? Only stupid pooperheads do that. When are you sending me my pony? It's in there.  Section 1.8. Read it. Then send me my pony.
> 
> Winning. Define it. Then I'll tell you if it's important. Never mind. I'll do that for you. I'm always doing this extra work. Winning is of supreme importance. I always win. I have never lost in my life. I will never ever lose. I will always win. Even on the day that I die, I will beat the doctors best efforts to keep me alive.
> 
> Now, if we're talking about winning some stupid contest, where you see if I can hit you in the accepted spots, while ignoring actual effective techniques, so that some guy raises a flag and yells "point!", while a bunch of mouth breathers who think Power Rangers is real karate, who cares? That is irrelevant. Might be fun. Might make you think you're something with a wall full of trophies. But it doesn't make you a 'martial artist' any more than scoring a touchdown in hockey does.  Can you tell I think competitions are a joke? Am I being too subtle again?  I can be more blunt. Winning a competition where the prize is a little medal you wear or trophy you display is irrelevant. Winning a life or death struggle is important. Knowing the difference between the too? Priceless.  For everything else, there's LegionaryCard. (TM)


 NOTE: Pony is in the mail. Advice me when it arrives.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 5, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> NOTE: Pony is in the mail. Advice me when it arrives.



...Didnt the Post Office Question the...
This Pony is Alive, right?


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 6, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> ...Didnt the Post Office Question the...
> This Pony is Alive, right?


 ?? I dunno...


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 6, 2011)

Folks - The fact of the matter is that I clearly, did NOT make this thread clear to understand what I was referring to - when posting my original question. In the future, I will try to be more informative and give a better description of what I mean. In this case, I should have been more clear - that I was only referring to winning in sports - NO other kind. Although, I did bring it up on a few posts, after the fact - in my defense.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 6, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Folks - The fact of the matter is that I clearly, did NOT make this thread clear to understand what I was referring to - when posting my original question. In the future, I will try to be more informative and give a better description of what I mean. In this case, I should have been more clear - that I was only referring to winning in sports - NO other kind. Although, I did bring it up on a few posts, after the fact - in my defense.



It is slightly tragic, that alot could have been avoided by adding "Sport/Tournament Wise" to the start of the OP


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 28, 2011)

?? You are comparing me to the Sensei from Cobra Kai? :BSmeter:


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 28, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> It is slightly tragic, that alot could have been avoided by adding "Sport/Tournament Wise" to the start of the OP


 Do my many attempts of correcting my OP, by adding that exactly, in later posts, not count? Several times I posted "competition" winning - NOT kill or be killed in a battle to the death. Yet, those who train to kill, couldn't accept that.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 28, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> ?? You are comparing me to the Sensei from Cobra Kai? :BSmeter:



Noone EVER should.
Thats silly.


John Kreese is an awesome Instructor, period. Too Awesome to be surpassed!


----------



## Carol (Oct 28, 2011)

Who would win a sparring match between his hair and Chuck Norris' beard?


----------



## Steve (Oct 28, 2011)

Heated arguments aside, I have a pretty simple perspective, and I haven't seen it raised yet.  I believe that there's a fine line between competing to improve yourself and making excuses for losing before you've even lost.

What I mean is, for competition to be of value to you in your training, you have to compete to win.  If you go out on the mat (or whatever) and half-*** the thing, that's not doing anyone any good.  I'm competing to test myself and find gaps in my training... to measure my game against people with whom I don't train regularly.  If I go out and you've already decided that this is "just for fun" or you're simply "trying it out, but don't expect to win" that's wasting my time.  It's disrespectful to me and to you.

Given that you're out there to win, doing your best, taking it seriously, the rest doesn't matter.  You don't grow if you don't stretch yourself.  And the only way to stretch yourself is to take risks.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 28, 2011)

Carol said:


> Who would win a sparring match between his hair and Chuck Norris' beard?



This Dude, Obviously.

Who manages Relevance when talking about TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE!


----------



## Buka (Oct 28, 2011)

If the thread had been titled, "How important is winning"........
I wonder if our replies would have been any different?

P.S. Ameri-Do-Te just cracks me up!


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 29, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> ?? You are comparing me to the Sensei from Cobra Kai? :BSmeter:


 


Champ-Pain said:


> Do my many attempts of correcting my OP, by adding that exactly, in later posts, not count? Several times I posted "competition" winning - NOT kill or be killed in a battle to the death. Yet, those who train to kill, couldn't accept that.



Are you serious, Angel? That's one hell of an edit, compared to what turned up in my email notification there.... and you've come back three and a half weeks later to answer this way? Hmm. 

Tell you what, to answer these two smaller posts, the answers are yes, we are (I might note that in your original reply you directed that question at me, although I wasn't the one who made the comparison, as I explained it when you said you didn't get the reference), and secondly, no, that doesn't count. You started a thread, cool, but if it didn't go to exactly what you wanted it to be, telling people that their answers were irrelevant is not a mature response, no matter what you wanted the conversation to be, people did exactly what you asked, which is explain their position and why. You basically said that anyone who wasn't interested in winning must be bad at sports and a loser, and when people such as myself said we don't train in competitive arts, you told us that our opinions were irrelevant.

In terms of you being John Kreese, do you need me to link threads where you talk about demoting 7 and 8 year old kids because of them getting upset at a tournament, crying and walking off? Do you need me to go to threads where you complain about the ungratefulness of students who want to train under someone else? Really?

I do want to address a couple of things in the original reply, though:




			
				Champ-Pain said:
			
		

> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> > I train in old systems where the aim is to kill the other person, end of story. There is no competitive aspect, both the Uchidachi and Shidachi (attacking and defending partners) are trying to kill each other during the training, if it's being done properly. The attacks are designed to kill, and the responces are the same. If that very part is missing, then the training loses it's value and purpose; there is no concept of winning, nor of losing, aside from the idea of losing your life.
> ...



You really don't get what I'm talking about, do you? 



			
				Champ-Pain said:
			
		

> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> > Now, this is an Embu, a public demonstration, the training is a lot scarier, as if you don't move in time, you get smashed in the head, or get your fingers broken by a solid lump of oak... and the aim is to have it miss you by as little distance and time as possible - but the point here is that this is martial arts training, and in this "winning" is completely irrelevant.
> ...



No, that's a complete misreading of the situation. For one thing, you're equating being hit or injured with losing, which is not the case at all in this training. So there is no loser or winner here, and if you think there are, you don't get martial arts training.



			
				Champ-Pain said:
			
		

> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> > It's these passive aggressive methods that I'm cautioning you against, Angel. MT is far more stringently moderated than MAP, or other forums, so be careful what you say and how you say it.
> ...



No, we just don't put up with as much as others do. Tread carefully, Angel. Free speech doesn't mean you can dictate what people can reply, you know... (oh, irony....)


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

Chris: I edited post 154, not because I wanted to, but because my internet went down, while typing my reply. By the time I got service again - it appeared that the entire post had been messed up and I didn't want to take another hour retyping it again. 


You brought up two members names (MODS) - Which I will not mention. One has never complained about any of my replies to him. I don't see why you feel you have to answer for him. The other is the founder, which I did nothing but compliment him, even after he called me a troll. Again, I don't see why you feel the need to reply for him, either. They both seem like they have the ability to reply for themselves.

I believe winning is important, at all levels. You believe it is irrelevant. We very strongly disagree with each other - and nothing you say will change my opinion. Furthermore, in my opinion, you are just taking advantage of your "high and mighty" position here on MT - knowing full well that you have all the backup in the world, to attack me, without repercaution of any kind. Unfortunately, I don't have your status, and I will be penalized, or worse, banned, for the slightest little things I say, if not in accordance with the mods liking. You question my competence, confidense, and God knows what else... on the internet, NOT to my face. I suppose that makes you a very brave man, in your own eyes. I see you more like a coward, in mine. 

With all the respect in the planet, I will continue to defend myself against your attacks on me - regardless who likes it and who doesn't - regardless of the final outcome, whatever it may be.


----------



## Jenna (Oct 29, 2011)

Can I ask Sir, of the young boys and girls whom you train, maybe they train hard, maybe they put in every effort in competition and yet they lose in a bout or match.  How do you react then?  If you have pinned your system on winning "at all cost - regardless of the pricetag" then how do you persuade them that just because they have lost that they are NOT _losers_?  Would that eventuality not force to you into hypocracy?  Would you tell them that it is ok to lose if they have tried their best?  I am just wondering how you deal with such young ones? When you indoctrinate them with the message that they must win at all cost, what happens when they lose?

For what it is worth, I applaud you for working with such young students who need guidance and role models.  I just worry about the force with which you deploy your core message.


----------



## Carol (Oct 29, 2011)

Personally I don't give a flip about drama on other boards, I wanna talk about winning here!  

Champ, if you don't mind, your sig caught my eye as well especially where you work with kids.  What does winning at all cost regardless of the pricetag mean to you?  If I were a parent and my child had (say) an important project due in the morning at school that wasn't quite done, I'd want him doing his homework before he goes to train.  I personally wouldn't believe that not doing homework, or not attending school, or not doing their part with family so they can instead shirk responsibilities and train is an acceptable price tag.  But...that's me.  What do you think?


----------



## Sukerkin (Oct 29, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> <snip several lines of testosterone>
> 
> With all the respect in the planet, I will continue to defend myself against your attacks on me - regardless who likes it and who doesn't - regardless of the final outcome, whatever it may be.



*CP*, whilst you might not have a care, you are on both a slippery slope and a losing wicket with that line. 

You have a right to your views and you can 'speak' them to whoever will listen and where-ever you want.  But just be aware of the most pertinent fact that Free Speach is an ideal that has limits when it comes to internet fora.

For the record, the more you type, the more I *do* hear the cry of "Kobra Kai!!!!" echoing down the years.  So that might tell you that, unless such irony is your aim, you are failing to get your message across in a meaningful sense.


----------



## Sukerkin (Oct 29, 2011)

Oh and that Enter the Dojo sketch series is wonderful - I chortled most heartily .


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Can I ask Sir, of the young boys and girls whom you train, maybe they train hard, maybe they put in every effort in competition and yet they lose in a bout or match.  How do you react then?  If you have pinned your system on winning "at all cost - regardless of the pricetag" then how do you persuade them that just because they have lost that they are NOT _losers_?  Would that eventuality not force to you into hypocracy?  Would you tell them that it is ok to lose if they have tried their best?  I am just wondering how you deal with such young ones? When you indoctrinate them with the message that they must win at all cost, what happens when they lose?
> 
> For what it is worth, I applaud you for working with such young students who need guidance and role models.  I just worry about the force with which you deploy your core message.


 I would obviously like for all my students to win all their matches, but that is completely unrealistic. When my students put out a good effort and still lose a match - I high five them, hug them and I tell them "great job - we'll get'em next time". 

My signature is just a silly little quote - no more, no less. Most everyone has one - no big deal. I don't really live my life in accordence to "Win at all cost - Regardless of the pricetag". If you'd like, I'll change it, just for you. Please, let me know what you'd like it to be.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

Carol said:


> Personally I don't give a flip about drama on other boards, I wanna talk about winning here!
> 
> Champ, if you don't mind, your sig caught my eye as well especially where you work with kids.  What does winning at all cost regardless of the pricetag mean to you?  If I were a parent and my child had (say) an important project due in the morning at school that wasn't quite done, I'd want him doing his homework before he goes to train.  I personally wouldn't believe that not doing homework, or not attending school, or not doing their part with family so they can instead shirk responsibilities and train is an acceptable price tag.  But...that's me.  What do you think?


 I agree. School is much more important. I ask my students how they are doing in school, on a regular basis... it's important to me, how they do.


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## jks9199 (Oct 29, 2011)

Folks,
The Mod Team does it's level best not to take sides.  As a general rule, we avoid moderating threads where we are involved.  That said -- EVERYONE must follow the rules.  Bob Hubbard has even received infractions and been suspended...  

If you feel that you have been attacked unfairly, in violation of the rules -- please use the RTM button.  It's a triangular logo, with an exclamation point inside, at the bottom of each post.  Submitting a report generates notice to all Staff.  We review the report, and take appropriate action.  We rarely disclose the action taken against a particular user publicly.  

Personal attacks are against the rules.  However, everyone is responsible for what they say, and what they say may be addressed and challenged by others.  Just like a conversation at a bar or party, what you're saying to one person may be "overheard" and others may join in the discussion, bringing different points of view and ideas.  If you want a private conversation with someone -- use the PM system.

Let's all play nice, and we can all learn something from each other.


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## Jenna (Oct 29, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> I would obviously like for all my students to win all their matches, but that is completely unrealistic. When my students put out a good effort and still lose a match - I high five them, hug them and I tell them "great job - we'll get'em next time".
> 
> My signature is just a silly little quote - no more, no less. Most everyone has one - no big deal. I don't really live my life in accordence to "Win at all cost - Regardless of the pricetag". If you'd like, I'll change it, just for you. Please, let me know what you'd like it to be.


If you are saying that the win at all costs is just a strapline then I have no issue at all and again only wish to encourage you to likewise encourage the young students under your care.  I like your trailer video btw, it is professionally done. 

As to your original question: winning, is it important or irrelevant? I think it is both.  And neither.  

I do not agree that it is the aim of all competitors is to win (though I am quite ok if my view is not shared universally).  I say that the goal of all competitors should be to COMPETE to the very best of their ability.  Yes! if they are better than everyone else then they WILL win.  However, if there is someone better than they (and they are not afraid of disappointing you or their parents), then they will at least be able to leave with a sense of pride in having given their very best effort. In my mind, there is no defeat in that.

I do not like the idea that there can only be one winner or only one way to win.  And if you needed concrete proof, well here it is 

[yt]J-GkwIRbLw8[/yt]


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 29, 2011)

Just to interject here: -ALL- members of this site function under the same ruleset. No one is 'above reproach', including myself. Report issues, they will be discussed and dealt with as necessary. No visible action does not mean we did nothing as we prefer not to discuss policy in public. As to free speech, no, it doesn't exist here, or on any forum really. US Constitution doesn't apply here either. We do however allow a great deal of leeway to facilitate the free flow of conversation, as long as it's within our posted guidelines.  So, putting it shortly, everyone review the rules, stay within them, and I don't have to pause my latest Scooby Doo marathon and work. Ok, back to the topic.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Oh and that Enter the Dojo sketch series is wonderful - I chortled most heartily .


 Slippery slope, losing wicket, enter the dojo sketch, chortled most heartedly... I'm sorry, but I don't get it. I'm not allowed to speak my mind and/or defend myself against the negative statements made against me, by other members? Members that question my motives, competence, confidense, ability and so on... 

...Oh well.

Winning is important! It always has been, it is now, and it always will be. How important was it for the original colonies, which later became the USA, to send the British back to where they came from, during the revolutionary war? How important was it, when the Americans drove back the evil forces of Japan into a complete and total surrender during WW2? How important was it for the free world to defeat Germany, Hitler and his crazy ideas of domination by white folks?


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Just to interject here: -ALL- members of this site function under the same ruleset. No one is 'above reproach', including myself. Report issues, they will be discussed and dealt with as necessary. No visible action does not mean we did nothing as we prefer not to discuss policy in public. As to free speech, no, it doesn't exist here, or on any forum really. US Constitution doesn't apply here either. We do however allow a great deal of leeway to facilitate the free flow of conversation, as long as it's within our posted guidelines.  So, putting it shortly, everyone review the rules, stay within them, and I don't have to pause my latest Scooby Doo marathon and work. Ok, back to the topic.


 Sir, I agree with what you say on this post, however, some/many of my posts are wrongly misinterpreted, purposely or otherwise, and often taken out of context. I actually speak, understand, read and write in english, fairly well IMHO. So then, why is it so hard for some to understand exactly what I'm saying? Why misrepresent my point of view, opinions and positions and try to make it sound like something other than what I say and/or mean?


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

Jenna said:


> I like your trailer video btw, it is professionally done.


 Thanks, I appreciate it. Just wanted to make a quick point. This video is now almost 2 years old, and all but 1 of the children on it are still my students at Champion Martial Arts USA - "Where Children Become Champions".


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## Sukerkin (Oct 29, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Slippery slope, losing wicket, enter the dojo sketch, chortled most heartedly... I'm sorry, but I don't get it. I'm not allowed to speak my mind and/or defend myself against the negative statements made against me, by other members? Members that question my motives, competence, confidense, ability and so on...



Within the limits of behaviour set out within the agreement that you signed when you joined the site, of course you are.  

To clarify, I highlighted the part that I was commenting on when I replied above.   Whether you intended it or not, the passage intimated that you would persist in behaving as you wished regardless of what anyone else thought or whatever the outcome would be.  *That* was the 'slippery slope' and why it is a 'losing wicket' was eloquently pointed out soon after - the rules apply to everyone, even the chap who pays the bills for the place.

This thread is turning into a classic example of why text-based communication has it's pitfalls when it comes to getting your point across ulls at hair:.

By the way, post #116 was a separate post, distinct from what I had to say in post #115.  I'd not seen that web-series before and it was very funny, striking all those cliche points about over-intense MA instructors with accuracy.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Whether you intended it or not, the passage intimated that you would persist in behaving as you wished regardless of what anyone else thought or whatever the outcome would be.


 Another misrepresentation!!! What I said was "I will defend myself against those who attack me" - referring to one person, in general. I say one thing - you hear something completely different - purposely or otherwise.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 29, 2011)

I was telling you what I thought your words implied.  Misinterpretation, aye maybe so, but not misrepresentation.

I would suggest that it might be the case that what this thread is also showing, as well as the shortfalls of the medium, is that very often what we think we write is not always what others read.  I've been in those shoes quite a few times and it's usually not very comfortable, particularly if I've seriously upset someone.  "Oh!  I didn't mean such-and-such in THAT way!" has been a phrase I have learned to couch in several different fashions so as to avoid repetition :lol:.


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## Carol (Oct 29, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> I agree. School is much more important. I ask my students how they are doing in school, on a regular basis... it's important to me, how they do.



:asian:

That was my impression too.  You're...as subtle as a freaking bulldozer  but, you also strike me as a coach that really cares about his kids.  Unfortunately there are some kids out there that don't have enough of that.


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## Jenna (Oct 29, 2011)

I would echo Carol's sentiment above.  You can be how you like with adults online or in the real world, that is up to you.  Regarding your young students though, if you abide by the idea of NEVER doing anything that you do not feel will benefit them then I think that is a good thing.  It is implicit for me that that idea includes giving them credit for having given their best effort, whether or not they have taken a win on the mats.  Good luck, Jenna.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> *CP*, For the record, the more you type, the more I *do* hear the cry of "Kobra Kai!!!!"


 I can't believe I missed this one - so I'll answer to it, now. Your opinion is obvious, by your replies. The thing is that - I would bet my house with everything in it - your opinion would be very different if you actually knew me personally. I'd also bet that we are probably NOT as different as you may believe - and it is quite possible that we have many things in common, despite of our disagreements, here on MT. Perhaps this can be the start of us, both, in understanding one another a little bit better. BTW - I'm probably a whole lot closer to the karate kid's Sensei than the other guy.    Believe it or not.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 29, 2011)

I don't doubt it at all :nods:.

What I was trying to show, in the phrase that you quoted, was what the *appearance* was that was being received, at least by this member of the readership - I can see tho' that it does not read that way in isolation and I apologise that it came across so ill.


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## chinto (Oct 29, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> NOBODY I know trains to fight to the death, although, I suspect most people can do so, if forced into such a situation, without any other choice - whether they train in M/A or not.



I guess that depends on the person. I do NOT train for tournament type fighting.  I train to be able to defend myself and my loved ones.  This could mean a fight to the DEATH , or just enough force to stop the person from continuing. ( that would depend on the attacker and other variables.) but the fight could very very easily be lethal.  UNTRAINED DRUNKS KILL EACH OTHER IN BAR FIGHTS BY ACCIDENT!!!  there is a very old saying, and it defiantly applies to the streets, " If you FIGHT you may DIE!" 

So I would submit that a lot of the older styles do train with an eye to a fight to the death. the kata teaches techniques for that.  of course it is the practitioner who will decide if it is a situation that requires that level of force.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 29, 2011)

chinto said:


> I guess that depends on the person. I do NOT train for tournament type fighting.  I train to be able to defend myself and my loved ones.  This could mean a fight to the DEATH , or just enough force to stop the person from continuing. ( that would depend on the attacker and other variables.) but the fight could very very easily be lethal.  UNTRAINED DRUNKS KILL EACH OTHER IN BAR FIGHTS BY ACCIDENT!!!  there is a very old saying, and it defiantly applies to the streets, " If you FIGHT you may DIE!"
> 
> So I would submit that a lot of the older styles do train with an eye to a fight to the death. the kata teaches techniques for that.  of course it is the practitioner who will decide if it is a situation that requires that level of force.


 My point is that you don't have to train to kill, in order to do so. Anybody can kill, if the situation requires it. I don't train to kill, I train to kick ***. The thing is that - the *** kicking can very easily turn deadly... for either combatent.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 29, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> My point is that you don't have to train to kill, in order to do so. Anybody can kill, if the situation requires it. I don't train to kill, I train to kick ***. The thing is that - the *** kicking can very easily turn deadly... for either combatent.


Do you Practice Throat Pinches, Eye Gouges, or Neck Breaks, for Example?

Its two different Schools of thought.
Its like how Wrestlers think they can Punch, and Strikers think they can Wrestle; Assuming theyre just Brawler Types. Or Training a Form that Exclusively covers One.

Yes, the Wrestlers can Punch. Yes, the Strikers can Wrestle.
But the Strikers are BETTER at Striking, and the Wrestlers are BETTER at Wrestling.
As such, Training to Kill makes you better at delivering that kind of Force.
Training to "Kick ***" may well make you Good at Kicking ***. But attempting to make the Outcome more Lethal, it would be sloppy, and probably rather sluggish.
Similarly, Training to Kill can make doing less effectual stuff look strange. I know someone where I am now, who did some Tai Chi once. The whole Relaxing, Fancy Tai Chi anyone can do. He had Powerful Movements. In Slow, Relaxed Tai Chi. Because thats what He had learnt to do with those types of movements. Generate Power. Even moving Slowly, Relaxedly, and Calmly.
Its all effectual.
Itd be like telling a Boxer to Choke someone out. He could do it. But it wouldnt be the neat 5-10 Second Chokes-To-Unconsciousness were used to.

Besides - If "Anybody can Kill", then "Anybody can Fight". So why Practice it, if it wont make you *Better* at it?

If you can see what Im Presenting here.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> My point is that you don't have to train to kill, in order to do so. Anybody can kill, if the situation requires it. I don't train to kill, I train to kick ***. The thing is that - the *** kicking can very easily turn deadly... for either combatent.



I'll see if I can explain it to you, then.

Training in lethal methodology is one thing, but the emphasis is on the mindset created by such training. Without training to kill, having the intent and resolve behind such actions, on both the Uchidachi's and Shidachi's side, it is what some refer to as "martial calisthenics", and has no real value whatsoever. Let's face it, I'm hardly about to need sword skills against a sword wielding attacker in the street, am I? So the training is about something else, yeah? And no matter how much you train in a sport, no matter how intense you think it is, it really is completely different to the mentality of a martial art concerned with life and death encounters and combat. When I'm in my more elitist mindset, I'd say that what you do isn't a martial art, it's a martial sport, and a limited one at that. You really can't give kids actual martial arts the way I do them, and that's one reason I don't teach kids. As a result, your potshot about "how many of those students would do better under you than under me - rhetorical.. I know the answer, few to none" (from your "edited" post) is completely irrelevant, Angel. Under me, they'd learn a martial art. Under you, they'd get trophies and trinkets. They're not the same thing.

But to the crux of the matter, you started this thread, yeah. But then you've complained that you were misinterpreted and misunderstood throughout the entire thing whenever someone gave an opinion outside of your realm of sporting contest. Deal with it, that's the viewpoint people are coming in with, if you don't like a conversation being open to all, don't start one. You haven't been misunderstood, it's just that people have been coming at the conversation from other places and understandings than yours. Seriously, deal with it. Kay?

NOTE: I am not saying here, before anyone gets upset, that Judo isn't good, great, or even saying it isn't a martial art, other than in the strict combative versus sporting sense here. Personally, I love Judo, but it's very different from the type of thing that I'm talking about, and even further when it's basically just kids, as in Angel's school.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

I completely understand where you guys are coming from. I just don't agree. I'll start with the sword, mentioned above. Who in God's earth carries a sword around with them, for self defense, or any other reason? Out of those who do, how many bring it with you when you get out of your vehicle? Example: movie, theatre, super market, school, etc.? I'm prepared to say - nobody. Which brings me to my next point. How can you use it to kill, if it's not in your posession, at a time of need? I will still have my Judo and other *** kicking abilities with me, at all times. And besides, if I wanted to kill - I'd use a weapon which I can easily hide on my person. Like a handgun. I just want to defend myself, not kill. But if I did want to kill, I most certainly could do so, in a heartbeat. As far as throat pinch, eye gouch and neck breaks, do I personally practice it? No. But if I'm in a life or death situation and my life depended on it, I'd bite, scratch, poke, pinch, gouch, pull hair, whatever it took, to make it out alive. I'd also use weapons not practiced in the dojo. Example: bottle, rock, chair, trash can, solid lump of oak, anything I can get my hands on. 

My point is that just because someone doesn't train to kill - doesn't mean they can't do so, if they actually had to. And just because you do train to kill - doesn't mean you will be able to do so in the way or manner in which you practice to do so, if your sword is not around for you to use.

PS - I teach kids, but I train with adults, whenever I train, at all. I'm also a very good shot with most any fire arms. So you see, I don't train to kill - but I can do so, in more ways than one.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

Angel, seriously, read the damn responses, okay? It's about the mindset and personal development that such training brings up, nothing whatsoever to do with using a sword to kill someone in real life. It's not about actually killing people, it's about the emphasis in the training.

Seriously, look past your own limited approach and listen to what you're being told. This is the very crux of why winning is irrelevant to persons such as myself. You really need to recognise that there are other reasons to train in these arts, and other arts that are far better suited to these other reasons. Ideally, you'd listen to us saying that, and learn, rather than just come back with "but it's not practical". 

Do you get it yet?


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

Chris: Like I said, I completely understand your point, I just don't agree. My limited approach and common sense tells me that it's not practical. But if you put it that way - I suppose I do train to kill, as well, same as you - but differently. I got it, I guess...


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

Sigh... No, Angel, you don't get it. At all. The big indication is you're talking about whether or not it's "practical". Still. After I just pointed out that that's really not anything to do with it.

And no, you don't train the same as me. Trust me on that one. Nor do you train to kill. Otherwise there'd be some rather dead bodies at the tournaments. What you train in can be used as such, but that's incredibly different to what I'm talking about here. But I feel you'd need to experience it in order to understand.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

A tournament is one thing, a street fight is something completely different. Did you ever compete? Did you ever kill someone in competition? You do realize that you can do both, train to compete and to kill. It doesn't have to be one or the other.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

And again, you demonstrate that you don't get what I'm talking about. At all.

Yes, Angel, I did compete, both in TKD and Karate, as well as doing some time in a BJJ school, and some boxing. And trust me, you are not getting what I'm saying. I'm talking about the overall aims of the martial art training experience, based on the particulars of the art itself, the mentality and mindset of it's teachings, and the training methods employed. What you do is nothing like what I do. And it really has little to do with practical usage, particularly when dealing with things like armed combat (swords, staffs, spears etc)... but, for the record, my unarmed has the same mindset.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't train in or use swords, spears, staffs, etc. - I carry a 9 mm Sig with a full clip, at all times... and for the record, my unarmed skills are just as deadly as anyone elses, even if I do have a different mindset than yours.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

Okay, one more time, Angel.

This is not about skill sets, it's about the mindset that the training instills.

Forget about what is done for practical reasons, that's irrelevant.

Forget about if you're more deadly, or I am, that's irrelevant.

Forget about the mechanics of the art, that's irrelevant.

It's about the reasons to train, and the benefits that they give. For you, there's competition, and winning. For me, it's the personal growth through the form of training that my arts provide, a great part of it is based in the "aim to kill" training methodology. As a result, winning is completely irrelevant to me, and others training like me. Which is the question that this thread is about (you may have wanted it to only refer to sporting endeavours, but face it, that would be a one sided, boring discussion - "Hey, when you compete, do you want to win?" "Yeah, I do." "Hey, me too").

Please tell me you get it now, and can stop the useless posturing with a gun, and 'deadly judo unarmed skills', yeah? It doesn't do you any favours at all, and actually completely weakens your position.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Please tell me you get it now, and can stop the useless posturing with a gun, and 'deadly judo unarmed skills', yeah? It doesn't do you any favours at all, and actually completely weakens your position.


 I not only get it, I was ready to agree and accept your position 100%... but if you'd like me to stop the useless posturing with a gun - I suggest you do the same with the swords, spears and staffs that you won't be carrying with you, when you actually need them... it completely weakens your position, as well.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

You know, you almost had me there, Angel, thinking you did get what I was saying, until you put in that bit about "when you actually need them". There is no posturing from me, there is no "when you need them", as that is not part of the idea at all. I think I've said that about, what, six or seven times now? And what I mean by your posturing weakening your position is that, when confronted by something outside of your sphere of experience (someone who doesn't necessarily train in order to use the physical skills, but for other reasons), you go immediately to "it's not practical... you won't have them when you need them... but I am deadly unarmed.... and I carry a gun with me, locked and loaded...." 

Pointless, Angel, utterly pointless.

What that shows is a lack of belief and internal confidence, which shows a gap in your approach, as it's based on ego and defeating others, which is where your emphasis on winning falls down and fails you as a personal development method. You don't get better as a person, you just get more trophies and trinkets, and you can't lead your kids to anything meaningful other than more trinkets for them. If that's all you're interested in, and all they're interested in, fine. I demand more out of my life experience, though.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

So, carrying a sword, spear or staff, instead of a gun - will give me internal confidense? Fill the gap in my approach? Pick me up when I fail and fall? Make my life more meaningful? 

Seriously Chris - I get, I really do.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

For crying out loud, Angel, no, we are NOT talking about carrying weapons around, only you are talking about that. I am talking about an approach to training in a martial art, and you continue to not understand. Try reading it all again, and see if that helps. Because you don't get it. You really don't.


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## Jenna (Oct 30, 2011)

Dear Angel and Christopher, 

I worry that you are both obstinately trying to WIN this discussion.  

It is ok to disagree, that is fine, yes? Discussions cannot be WON only shared and sometimes the opposing views just can neither be given to nor accepted by one another.  That is ok.  Perhaps this is one of those times where it might help alleviate tension by taking a breath, and gaining perspective. * This is just an internet discussion and not a matter of either personal honour or integrity or life and death! *
Otherwise, I worry over where this competition of words will lead.  Can I ask, are either of you benefitting from hearing the points of view of the other?  If not then are you both only continuing in order to WIN the conversation?  I hope not. 

Seconds out...


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

My dear, I'm not trying to "win", I can see Angel's side fine, I'm just trying to ensure he actually gets the answer he asked for in the first place ("Is winning important or irrelevant, and please explain why"). If I don't get him to understand, then I don't consider that an adequate explanation.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

I agree! He's not listening to me and won't give an inch... NOT one positive reply to any of my posts, NOT one. Therefor - I'm not listening to him, either. We disagree - PERIOD. I'm moving on.

 Thanks J, for your wake-up call.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

Re-read the thread, Angel. Seriously. Then tell me I don't see your side, and I'm the one not listening.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 30, 2011)

I think the Main Issue is that Angel, as ive gathered Champ-Pain is called; Is Argueing a Point. Chris Parker is Debating that Point with a Valid Counterpoint, in answer to statements by Angel.

Im not going to say any more than that, but this is a Classic Case of Two People Discussing something, but with different Pretexts. And therefore coming across as Critical to one anothers Views to the other.
I mean, feel free to go back to... Page 10, I think? When Angel begun the Discussion regarding Training to Kill. Which was carried on, which was carried on.
But I am going to say ONE thing.
In fact, feel free to disregard all but the following:

*"He's not listening to me and won't give an inch..."
And what do You think Hes thinking at this point?*


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

Chris: I'm sorry to tell you that I won't be replying to your posts any longer. I don't want to make you upset with my answers - nor do I want to be upset by yours. I don't want to argue, fuss and fight anymore. I'm actually trying to come clean with all those whom I may have offended in the past, but you just won't give me such opportunity... God knows I've tried, publicly and via PM, as well, with NO results what-so-ever, I'm sad to say. I wish you all the best - good luck.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

Angel, it's very simple. You haven't offended me, but you have frustrated me. You need to be able to see another point of view, which is very lacking in your approach to these forums. I pointed out that practical use of the skills was not the point, and you continued to refer to using them. That is not listening to the other side of the discussion. I know exactly what you were saying, I knew that winning was very important to you, but you have been unwilling to listen to why it's not important to myself, instead clinging to ideas that had no place, despite being repeatedly informed of that fact. It's very hard to have a discussion with someone who doesn't hear anything you're saying, so try to listen more in future, okay?


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I think the Main Issue is that Angel, as ive gathered Champ-Pain is called; Is Argueing a Point. Chris Parker is Debating that Point with a Valid Counterpoint, in answer to statements by Angel.
> 
> Im not going to say any more than that, but this is a Classic Case of Two People Discussing something, but with different Pretexts. And therefore coming across as Critical to one anothers Views to the other.
> I mean, feel free to go back to... Page 10, I think? When Angel begun the Discussion regarding Training to Kill. Which was carried on, which was carried on.
> ...


 It's obvious who you agree with... but I did not begin any such discussion about training to kill... in fact, I stated that I know nobody who does so, when that point first came up. As far as what I think he's thinking at this point - I don't have a crystal ball, so I have no clue. Do you?


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## Sukerkin (Oct 30, 2011)

I think this one has circled the drain for long enough, don't you gentlemen?

Jenna's point above is a well made one and is something to be taken on board.  

Before things get more heated it is better to leave this to settle peacefully into the quiet of the pit into which all threads eventually fall (unless they are amongst the lucky few to be Stickied ).  

For after all, there is no point in a 'discussion', that does not eventually serve to enlighten or inform, if all it *does* achieve is unsettle the atmosphere of the fora.

Be reminded that the header for the site contains an exhortation to be friendly - so, as Bill and Ted so famously said, "Be Excellent to Each Other" and let discord fade.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 30, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> It's obvious who you agree with... but I did not begin any such discussion about training to kill... in fact, I stated that I know nobody who does so, when that point first came up. As far as what I think he's thinking at this point - I don't have a crystal ball, so I have no clue. Do you?



Well, Yes.
But I dont allow who I agree with cloud my ciew of the overall discussion.

Im pretty sure He mentioned it, then You discussed it. That could be debated both ways;

I dont have a Crystal Ball - I can Deduce things however


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, Yes.
> But I dont allow who I agree with cloud my ciew of the overall discussion.
> 
> Im pretty sure He mentioned it, then You discussed it. That could be debated both ways;
> ...



Crystal balls are a liability in sparring and fighting.


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, Yes.
> But I dont allow who I agree with cloud my ciew of the overall discussion.
> 
> Im pretty sure He mentioned it, then You discussed it. That could be debated both ways;
> ...



In terms of who began the conversation of training to kill, it could be said that Angel did, by asking the question in the first place (as to why winning would be irrelevant), as it was specifically in answer to that. The first reference, though, was actually Sukerkin, implicit on page 3, followed by myself, rather more explicitly as a way of explaining the mindset difference between sport arts and what I do, on page 7. Since then it was taken out of context, applied incorrectly, and misunderstood, so I sought to rectify that. Didn't work, but I feel that has more to do with the receiver than the message.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 30, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> In terms of who began the conversation of training to kill, it could be said that Angel did, by asking the question in the first place (as to why winning would be irrelevant), as it was specifically in answer to that. The first reference, though, was actually Sukerkin, implicit on page 3, followed by myself, rather more explicitly as a way of explaining the mindset difference between sport arts and what I do, on page 7. Since then it was taken out of context, applied incorrectly, and misunderstood, so I sought to rectify that. Didn't work, but I feel that has more to do with the receiver than the message.



Duly Noted - See, I wouldnt have Re-Read that much to find out


----------



## The Last Legionary (Oct 30, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Crystal balls are a liability in sparring and fighting.



*Checks Balls*
Yup, not a liability here. My wife still has mine safe in the freezer.


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 30, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Duly Noted - See, I wouldnt have Re-Read that much to find out



Ah, yes, but I'm thorough...


----------



## The Last Legionary (Oct 30, 2011)

Training with swords, spears and the lot is still vauable. Most people don't carry them today, some do. There's at least 1 idiot who ends up in the news each month who gets nailed swinging a machette, which is the most common swordlike object around nowadays.  I highly doubt you'll try an oni-bongo double leg sweep roll over to a maki-roll armbar against some nut case swinging one of those. But, then again in a real NHB match anything is possible.  :roflmao:


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 30, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Crystal balls are a liability in sparring and fighting.


 Not if you use it as a weapon and hit your opponent on the head with it. Oh, I see - you mean liability for the other guy.


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't find winning in tournaments important, what more important is having the courage to test your skills. I remember my first tournament as a black belt going against 2nd, 3rd, 4rth, 5th degree balck belts who have been training longer than me. I was the underdog. Despite not being place in the top 3, I earned respect from many people. The highest level is earning respect not winning. I competed in more tournaments and I have improved being in the top 3 consistantly. The key is not to think about winning and losing, I think about putting in the effort.


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## shesulsa (Oct 31, 2011)

In sports, winning is a number ... a score derived from the opinions of judges ... judges who each have his/her own priorities in their fields.  It is the luck of the draw - the slip of the jab - the millimeter needed to strike far enough. It is the luck of the match of honed skill.

Victory is, like good alcohol, easy to appreciate, soothing, warming ... and oh-so-very intoxicating.  Often it is very unrealistic.

Good sportsmen - especially in this field - need to impart the ability to accept all, to keep humility in a jar rather than self-praise, and to drink of this tonic *often* - for it is by FAR the more practical lesson.

Celebrate your victories - but remember - they are very temporary and tend to incite the hunger of others.


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## Champ-Pain (Oct 31, 2011)

The Last Legionary said:


> Training with swords, spears and the lot is still vauable.
> 
> 
> 
> So is training with firearms - the most lethal of the Martial Arts weapons we speak about, and easier to carry around, as well... but, to each his own.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Oct 31, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> In sports, winning is a number ... a score derived from the opinions of judges ... judges who each have his/her own priorities in their fields.  It is the luck of the draw - the slip of the jab - the millimeter needed to strike far enough. It is the luck of the match of honed skill.
> 
> Victory is, like good alcohol, easy to appreciate, soothing, warming ... and oh-so-very intoxicating.  Often it is very unrealistic.
> 
> ...


 I don't agree with everything you've posted here - but you make some very good points and observations... and expressed yourself beautifully.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 31, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> The Last Legionary said:
> 
> 
> > Training with swords, spears and the lot is still vauable.
> ...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 31, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Thats debatable - A Needle, if inserted directly into an Artery, is more than likely going to Kill.



While having zero interest in joining the food fight, I do feel obligated to step in and point out that this is just flat out wrong. Needles are stuck in arteries all the time. I generally do it at least 2-3 times per shift in the ER. Most commonly it's done to measure the dissolved gases in the blood, to evaluate respiration & perfusion. Often it's done to directly measure & provide real-time constant monitoring of blood pressure.  And sometimes it's done because you really need blood for labs, and the veins are shot (i.e an IV drug abuser). While pulling them out without applying pressure afterwards will result in a mess, and a really ugly bruise, it is extremely unlikely to prove fatal. Except in Hollywood, of course.

There is NO debate here. Guns are far more lethal than even the biggest needle in our supply room.

Click-click-pow is absolutely the most lethal martial art.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 31, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> While having zero interest in joining the food fight, I do feel obligated to step in and point out that this is just flat out wrong. Needles are stuck in arteries all the time. I generally do it at least 2-3 times per shift in the ER. Most commonly it's done to measure the dissolved gases in the blood, to evaluate respiration & perfusion. Often it's done to directly measure & provide real-time constant monitoring of blood pressure.  And sometimes it's done because you really need blood for labs, and the veins are shot (i.e an IV drug abuser). While pulling them out without applying pressure afterwards will result in a mess, and a really ugly bruise, it is extremely unlikely to prove fatal. Except in Hollywood, of course.
> 
> There is NO debate here. Guns are far more lethal than even the biggest needle in our supply room.
> 
> Click-click-pow is absolutely the most lethal martial art.



Im still inclined to disagree with Guns being most Lethal; But thats a matter of Opinion. A Punch to the Head has been known to Kill, so has a Bullet. Both have failed in that regard as well.

Yogendra Singh Yadav.
http://www.cracked.com/article_17019_5-real-life-soldiers-who-make-rambo-look-like-*****.html
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/yadav.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogendra_Singh_Yadav
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/HEROISM/Yadav.html
I could find more Links;
Bottom line is: Dude Climbs Up Mountain, at one point being shot at. Dude Charges at Machine Gun Bunker, getting shot a couple of times. Dude Grenades Bunker. Dude Runs at next Bunker, Runs Inside, and Kills the Inhabitants with Hand to Hand Combat, albeit Two (One with an Thrown Ice Axe, and the other by means of Throat Cutting). He did a few other things in the process as well, but given that he survived all of this, and got a Medal, id say he did pretty well against the apparently Super-Lethal Machine Guns.

I do find your Counterpoint very interesting.
Have you ever had anyone with a Needle, as in, a Large Sewing Needle, put through their Jugular Vein/Carotid Artery? (Just Curious)


----------



## shesulsa (Oct 31, 2011)

Heh - reading the entire thread, I was very convinced that it was far more about attitude than actual notches on the lipstick case.  Silly me. *giggle*


----------



## Carol (Oct 31, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> Heh - reading the entire thread, I was very convinced that it was far more about attitude than actual notches on the lipstick case.  Silly me. *giggle*



Gasp.  You mean you don't teach that its all about the notches on the lipstick case?  %-}i


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Im still inclined to disagree with Guns being most Lethal; But thats a matter of Opinion. A Punch to the Head has been known to Kill, so has a Bullet. Both have failed in that regard as well.



Then you're a very silly person. Which do you think you're more likely to survive, and assuming you survive, which are you most likely to have any meaningful function following? The suggestion that guns are in any way shape or form less lethal than hands is just ludicrous. If you're still inclined to argue feel free. I won't waste my time arguing what should be painfully obvious.




Cyriacus said:


> I do find your Counterpoint very interesting.
> Have you ever had anyone with a Needle, as in, a Large Sewing Needle, put through their Jugular Vein/Carotid Artery? (Just Curious)



Are you kidding? I put 16g (and larger, sometimes) in the external jugular on a regular basis. When we canulate the internal jugular vein, it's (at the very smallest) a triple lumen catheter that includes 2 18g and 1 20 g. That works out to about the size of a 10g needle. If you don't know how big that is, go look at 10g wire. Same size. For a trauma pt, it's an even bigger line, placed in either the internal jugular, the subclavian vein or ther femoral vein. Much much larger than a sewing needle. And do you know what one of the most common 'ooopsies' is for that procedure? Hitting the carotid (or subclavian or femoral, depending on the site...). Easy to do, if you look at the anatomy involved. And do you know how many people I've seen die from our poking a hole in their carotid? I can count the number on the fingers of one foot. Zero. Life is not a Ninja movie...

Your example doesn't say what sort of wounds the "Dude" received, but it's irrelevant. A gunshot wound will always, without exception, cause more damage than the same wound caused by a needle. Or a fist.
 And for every example you can find of someone surviving, anybody who cares to can find 10,000 that died. If 1:10,000 is the sort of odds you like, then I'd very much like to play poker with you. I'll deal.


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 1, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Then you're a very silly person. Which do you think you're more likely to survive, and assuming you survive, which are you most likely to have any meaningful function following? The suggestion that guns are in any way shape or form less lethal than hands is just ludicrous. If you're still inclined to argue feel free. I won't waste my time arguing what should be painfully obvious.
> 
> *So, your Gun, for Self Defense, is going to be Loaded and Cocked, and accessible within the Fraction of a Second it could take to be Struck? Im not Argueing - Im not saying Hands are more Lethal. Im saying PEOPLE are Lethal, and what those People do. And I dont believe a Gun makes you all powerful.
> Why do you think Armed Police and Security Guards can get beaten up?**And if that makes me silly, so be it.*
> ...



You seem to think im Argueing with you for some reason


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> The Last Legionary said:
> 
> 
> > Training with swords, spears and the lot is still vauable.
> ...


 


Cyriacus said:


> Thats debatable - A Needle, if inserted directly into an Artery, is more than likely going to Kill.
> A Bullet to the Head has been known on many occasions to be Unsuccessful.
> 
> So Yes.
> To Each His Own.



That's not the debatable part, it's that Angel has again shown that he doesn't get what training with swords, spears etc is actually about... pity, because it's the answer to what he's asked about. Sadly, he cannot look past his own small take on what he thinks martial arts are about, which means he will never get what I and others are talking about. Oh, well.


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 1, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> That's not the debatable part, it's that Angel has again shown that he doesn't get what training with swords, spears etc is actually about... pity, because it's the answer to what he's asked about. Sadly, he cannot look past his own small take on what he thinks martial arts are about, which means he will never get what I and others are talking about. Oh, well.



True - Im mostly trying to stay out of that particular Conversation, but I could have perhaps looked at it from that Perspective.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Thats debatable - A Needle, if inserted directly into an Artery, is more than likely going to Kill.
> A Bullet to the Head has been known on many occasions to be Unsuccessful.
> 
> So Yes.
> To Each His Own.


 Would you be willing to go into battle, holding a needle vs. someone who's holdind a firearm? I sincerely doubt it.


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Would you be willing to go into battle, holding a needle vs. someone who's holdind a firearm? I sincerely doubt it.


Give Me more Details for this Theoretical Battle.
Because I actually would be.

And Im guessing You assume this Firearm is already Loaded, Cocked, and Drawn? Possibly Aimed as well.
Though thats Irrelevant.


----------



## Jenna (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Would you be willing to go into battle, holding a needle vs. someone who's holdind a firearm? I sincerely doubt it.


Needle, no.  

Teacup, or can key... Maybe lol


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> That's not the debatable part, it's that Angel has again shown that he doesn't get what training with swords, spears etc is actually about... pity, because it's the answer to what he's asked about. Sadly, he cannot look past his own small take on what he thinks martial arts are about, which means he will never get what I and others are talking about. Oh, well.


 Your negative replies towards me are making me soooo sick... I'm going to sit on the toilet for while and smell up the place. I'll probably barf, as well. You have your opinions, views and positions. I have mine. They are obviously very far apart. 

I'm starting to think that maybe you are obsessed with me... Just let it go, bro. I've seen what you look like - you're not my type.  Bug off!


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Give Me more Details for this Theoretical Battle.
> Because I actually would be.
> 
> And Im guessing You assume this Firearm is already Loaded, Cocked, and Drawn? Possibly Aimed as well.
> Though thats Irrelevant.


 If it's my firearm we are talking about... you are 4 for 4.


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> If it's my firearm we are talking about... you are 4 for 4.


I doubt you could Internationally Shoot your Firearm upon Me, and stand ANY Chance of Success, even if it is already Loaded, Cocked, Drawn, and Aimed.
But then, I doubt I could Kill You with a Needle from Australia.

So I Guess Were Square...


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I doubt you could Internationally Shoot your Firearm upon Me, and stand ANY Chance of Success, even if it is already Loaded, Cocked, Drawn, and Aimed.
> But then, I doubt I could Kill You with a Needle from Australia.
> 
> So I Guess Were Square...


 What? You think I'd miss? LOL


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Needle, no.
> 
> Teacup, or can key... Maybe lol


 I will now lay down my firearm and start training to KILL with Teacups & Can Keys. I've seen the light.


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> What? You think I'd miss? LOL


Do You think Id Miss with My Needle?
It could totally make it to Florida!

...Who it would Hit is another Story.
Much like Your Bullets. Im sure youd hit the Country, but that might be taken as a Declaration of War! Or it might hit some Desert Warrior, or something 



Champ-Pain said:


> I will now lay down my firearm and start training to KILL with Teacups & Can Keys. I've seen the light.



_Finally._


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> ...Who it would Hit is another Story. Im sure youd hit the Country, but that might be taken as a Declaration of War! Or it might hit some Desert Warrior, or something


 Guess who else lives in Australia... maybe I'll get lucky.


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## MJS (Nov 1, 2011)

Guys,

While I have posted in this thread, I'm not going to moderate it, however, just as a little reminder....lets try to keep the topic on track, k?  If you dont want to read someones posts, use the ignore feature, but taking personal issues from thread to thread won't result in anything positive.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

MJS said:


> Guys,
> 
> While I have posted in this thread, I'm not going to moderate it, however, just as a little reminder....lets try to keep the topic on track, k?  If you dont want to read someones posts, use the ignore feature, but taking personal issues from thread to thread won't result in anything positive.


 I've tried to make peace and I've tried ignoring, as well, without success. Perhaps someone can ask Chris in a very nice way to just move on and leave me behind. My good will towards him has all but evaporated, at this point, unfortunately.


----------



## MJS (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> I've tried to make peace and I've tried ignoring, as well, without success. Perhaps someone can ask Chris in a very nice way to just move on and leave me behind. My good will towards him has all but evaporated, at this point, unfortunately.



I'm talking about using the ignore feature on the forum.  Its on everyones profile.  It will disable his posts from your view.  

Anyways, lets try to return to the topic.  If you have questions, shoot me a PM.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

MJS said:


> I'm talking about using the ignore feature on the forum. It will disable his posts from your view.
> 
> Anyways, lets try to return to the topic.


 DONE! That was easy enough.


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 1, 2011)

Now you get to Enjoy the _really fun part:
_Where You click into a Thread, see that Hes said something, then find Yourself taking the Time to hit the Display Post Button to quickly see what He said... 


Seriously though, this Thread has gone on way longer than it should.
Ill direct that Statement to pretty much everybody.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:

If winning is irrelevant, then why do so many athletes train, practice and sacrifice so much, so hard and so regularly, in order to do so... sweating, bleeding and on occation crying, due to pain, exhaustion and injury, some even cheating, doping and/or using performance enhansement drugs, in order to win at whatever sport they participate in?


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 1, 2011)

Ah, it's a pity you're ignoring me, Angel, as I actually have an answer for you that you might appreciate (even after the veiled threat against me..."Guess who else lives in Australia?" And you're ignoring me? Classy...).

Winning is important from a sporting point of view. There's no denying that it is, in fact, it's something I've stated in my answers to you. But, and here's where you get to strap in and see if you can finally, after 6 pages, get what I've been saying, competitive endeavours are not the only expression of martial arts. And it's in these non-competitive ones that winning isn't important. If you can't see anything other than competition, this is a boring conversation ("Hey do you like to win when you compete?" "Yeah, I do." "Hey, me too". Hmm), so you may want to consider that, for those for whom winning isn't important, neither is competitive martial arts.

Seriously, I hope you do see this, and finally understand that all I've been talking about is an approach to martial arts that is far from what you know, and I've been trying to give you an insight into other facets of this world. I've never said that winning isn't important, or that it's irrelevant, other than it being irrelevant to me, based on the way I train, and the reasons I train. I've tried to explain that training to you, and those reasons to you, and you have taken my trying to explain to you, and your constant refusal to listen as my not being "positive" towards your posts. There was nothing positive to say about you constantly misreading and getting it wrong.

Then again, if you don't see this, I might just go ahead and report the threat you made. Hmm, sounds like a good idea anyway.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:
> 
> If winning is irrelevant, *then why do so many athletes train, practice and sacrifice so much, so hard and so regularly, in order to do so... sweating, bleeding and on occation crying, due to pain, exhaustion and injury, some even cheating, doping and/or using performance enhansement drugs, in order to win at whatever sport they participate in?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> For the money!


----------



## Jenna (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:
> 
> If winning is irrelevant, then why do so many athletes train, practice and sacrifice so much, so hard and so regularly, in order to do so... sweating, bleeding and on occation crying, due to pain, exhaustion and injury, some even cheating, doping and/or using performance enhansement drugs, in order to win at whatever sport they participate in?



Why do people do these things? Because people, martial artists and athletes _like _to compete.  There is nothing wrong with that.  People _like _to win.  It is our nature. And that is quite ok.

However... 

1. If winning becomes more important than the joys of competition then that is a recipe for horribly spoilt kids and bad sportsmanship in adults who feel they either DESERVE to win or throw a tantrum if they do not.  

2. When winning further becomes SO important that competitors must CHEAT with drugs and other frauds then that indicates a far deeper (probably familial) psychological issue that can NEVER be addressed by merely winning a competiton.  Those people are chasing a win like junkies chase their dragons.  Never will they achieve what will really satisfy them.  Even if they score a win.

Again, is winning important?  It depends upon how much weight you give it in your competitive priorities.  

I will say one thing, I would not wish to even bother competing against someone that had a mindset of winning _regardless of how well they compete_.  I would rather just let them have the win and be spared either their feigned magnanimity were they to beat me, or their poor sportsmanship were they to be beaten.  

I am not a competitor in my MA anyway so this is pure speculation.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Champ-Pain said:
> 
> 
> > Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:
> ...


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 1, 2011)

Because "winning" is seen as "success" and everyone wants to be a success.
Especially people whose normal lives are overall boring and mundane.

Can't be a CEO, but can be a championship golfer.
Can't be the NFL QB, but can be the local checkers champ.
Can't be Bill Gates, but can be the regional cage fight champ.

It's a way of feeling good about yourself.
I enter my photos in competitions. I sometimes win, it feels good.

Some people compete because they like the feel of winning. Some just like the competition. For some it's about medals and awards and applause, for others it's personal, an internal 'gut check' if you will.

I used to enter competitions not so much as to win, but to see how well I stacked up against others.  Losing the fight (especially when my opponent was years ahead of me) was less important than how well I did during the fight.  

Each person enters a competition for different reasons.
Personally, the ones who have to cheat to win are chasing the wrong goal in my view, but that's because I'm more about the battle than the victory.



On another topic, a reminder: Threats, real or perceived are grounds for an immediate ban. This matter is being reviewed by staff.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Guess who else lives in Australia... maybe I'll get lucky.


 If this is considered a threat by you or anyone else in the planet - I'll take the ban, immediately. Who am I even threatning, I'd like to know? 

I think someone is just very insecure about themself and is crying over spilled milk, calling on you and others to clean up the mess he can't clean up by himself.


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> If this is considered a threat by you or anyone else in the planet - I'll take the ban, immediately. Who am I even threatning, I'd like to know?
> 
> I think someone is just very insecure about themself and is crying over spilled milk, calling on you and others to clean up the mess he can't clean up by himself.



I told You You'd Read a Reply eventually 





Im just going to try and Re-Align this Topic now, since this is turning into a big Circle of Criticism.

What have We Learnt?
*1: It is not Necessary to Everyone to Compete.
2: If You do Compete, it can be for more Reasons than just Winning/Medals/Etc.
3: Different People Compete for Different Reasons which May or May Not make sense to Others. And some Train Insanely Hard for No Reason other than that they Choose to, and not for Medals. Others are the Opposite.
4: Training to use Swords and such can Psychologically Benefit You from a Combative (Im sure theres a better word) Perspective.
5: If You Ignore someone, Youll Inevitably Read one of their Posts eventually.
6: Probably some other stuff ive forgotten.
*


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 1, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> You know what, I'm a little bored. So I figure I'll throw something different in here....
> 
> Considering you (JC) have decided to post this in the "General Martial Arts" section, rather than the "Competitive Arts" section, I'm going to say that, in regards to competition and sport, sure, winning is the aim and therefore important (note: not all-important, but it is still what you strive towards... whether than means winning each time, or just improving and getting closer to the elusive win, the aim is to get to the top there, it's really how they're set up), however in martial arts, absolutely not. Martial arts have nothing to do with competition, winning, losing etc are not concepts that have any real place in their context.
> 
> ...



Chris Parkers Original Reply.
Assuming I understand Correctly, this is saying, that Martial Arts =/= Competitions. But Martial Artists can Compete in Martial Arts Competitions. But, some Places Teach the Competition Side as being more Important than the Martial Arts side. And that that Comment is Justified since this is the General Martial Arts Forum Section, and not the Competitive Arts Section.

I feel this is probably the best place to Start from, for any Future Discussion. As it is, youve succumbed to a Game of Counterpointing each other into Counterpoints.


----------



## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I told You You'd Read a Reply eventually *
> If You Ignore someone, Youll Inevitably Read one of their Posts eventually.
> *


 Especially if that certain someone you are trying to ignore has the power, or knows someone on MT who has the power to reverse the process I took in hitting the ignore button, just for a few moments, just long enough to have me see it, and then hit it to block his posts, once again. I know for a fact, I didn't hit the view button, yet it was very viewable to me.


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 1, 2011)

Agreed other than the "counter point to counter point" part. There really weren't any counterpoints, especially not put forward from Angel, what there was was Angel seizing on the idea of "train to kill", and myself explaining that it was not to go out and actually kill people (not training for practical purposes), to which Angel would reply something to the effect of "I get that, but it's not practical, is it?" I'd respond that that wasn't the point, the practicality wasn't in the techniques, and he'd respond "I get that, but it's not practical, is it?" I'd explain that he's looking at it from the wrong angle, and he'd say "It's not like you have a sword with you, I mean, it's not practical, is it?". I'd explain, again, that that wasn't the point, and he'd say "I get that, but it's not practical, is it? I have a gun."... and so on and so on. Not what I'd call counterpoint and counterpoint, more brick wall and head. Sadly, I was the head.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > Really? How about the amateur athletes who don't get paid?
> ...


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Especially if that certain someone you are trying to ignore has the power, or knows someone on MT who has the power to reverse the process I took in hitting the ignore button, just for a few moments, just long enough to have me see it, and then hit it to block his posts, once again. I know for a fact, I didn't hit the view button, yet it was very viewable to me.



The paranoia worm strikes again! :tantrum:


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## jks9199 (Nov 1, 2011)

In hopes of repairing this train wreck...

Personal shots are against the rules.  Threats, even if veiled or indirect, are against the rules.  A post that's intended to simply bother, harass, or any someone is also against the rules.  If what you're about to say feels like it might be interpreted as a shot or threat -- DON'T POST IT.  One thing I've found that can be very helpful is to write your post, and stop.  Read it again.  Make sure it says what you want it to say before you hit "Post Reply."

There will be no more warnings.  Further problems will be dealt with.

In short:

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

**Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Avoid personal shots; attack the message, not the messenger.

jks9199
Super Moderator*


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Especially if that certain someone you are trying to ignore has the power, or knows someone on MT who has the power to reverse the process I took in hitting the ignore button, just for a few moments, just long enough to have me see it, and then hit it to block his posts, once again. I know for a fact, I didn't hit the view button, yet it was very viewable to me.



To do what you suggest would require real-time monitoring at a level this forum software simply does not have, and a timing on par with a military operation. The only people here who has the power to do manually reverse, then reimpliment a block is me and you, and I've been scanning in model releases most of the morning. Unless there is a bug in the software I'm unaware of that's screwing up the ignore feature. But the only people not blockable are moderators.


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## shesulsa (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Especially if that certain someone you are trying to ignore has the power, or knows someone on MT who has the power to reverse the process I took in hitting the ignore button, just for a few moments, just long enough to have me see it, and then hit it to block his posts, once again. I know for a fact, I didn't hit the view button, yet it was very viewable to me.



Hm ... try this: make sure you have the user blocked. Log off, clear your browser cache and temp memory, etcetera, and reboot your device. If you are still having trouble blocking a user who is not on staff (i.e. Moderator, Senior Moderator, Super Moderator, Assistant Administrator or Administator), report the problem to Bob Hubbard - problems like that *might* be something else.


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## jasonbrinn (Nov 1, 2011)

I break it down as follows;

If it is a sport - You should want and try to win.  To do anything else is dishonest and why compete in the first place?  Plus winning and seeking to win is the only thing that can progress the sport to higher levels.

If it is an art - the concept is thrown out because it isn't relative - I just want to learn.

If it is self-defense - I want to live (if that is what you call winning then baby sign me up!).

I would bet that most people that like to "win" have assigned the values of improving and doing "good" to the act.  People that don't care for winning per se probably have assigned the value to other things.  As long as the assignment of the value set that motivates you is positive and not harmful to others - to each their own!


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## MJS (Nov 1, 2011)

I only made a few posts in this thread, but after reading a bit more, something else came to mind.  Many times, I think that its engrained in the minds of people that winning is "THE" only option.  Anything less is failure.  If you fail, you suck.  Well, fact is, people fail all the time.  The best of the best can fail.  IMO, nothing is 100%.  If people fail, they go into some great depression.  

I used to see this all the time in HS sports and even in the martial arts.  You'd swear some of these people were playing for a million bucks, with the way they'd act.  Parents on the sidelines, yelling at the kids.  Nice to make your kid feel like **** if Godforbid **GASP*** they lose! 

Now, dont mistake this for me saying that winning isn't important.  Sure, it is.  But also understand that you can't always be a winner.


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Ah, it's a pity you're ignoring me, Angel, as I actually have an answer for you that you might appreciate (even after the veiled threat against me..."Guess who else lives in Australia?" And you're ignoring me? Classy...).
> 
> Winning is important from a sporting point of view. There's no denying that it is, in fact, it's something I've stated in my answers to you. But, and here's where you get to strap in and see if you can finally, after 6 pages, get what I've been saying, competitive endeavours are not the only expression of martial arts. And it's in these non-competitive ones that winning isn't important. If you can't see anything other than competition, this is a boring conversation ("Hey do you like to win when you compete?" "Yeah, I do." "Hey, me too". Hmm), so you may want to consider that, for those for whom winning isn't important, neither is competitive martial arts.
> 
> ...


 Here it is, again. How does this show up for me to view if I've hit the ignore button? I guess I'm making it up - like everything else I post...


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

MJS said:


> Now, dont mistake this for me saying that winning isn't important.  Sure, it is.  But also understand that you can't always be a winner.


Completely understood and agreed with.


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## Steve (Nov 1, 2011)

MJS said:


> I only made a few posts in this thread, but after reading a bit more, something else came to mind.  Many times, I think that its engrained in the minds of people that winning is "THE" only option.  Anything less is failure.  If you fail, you suck.  Well, fact is, people fail all the time.  The best of the best can fail.  IMO, nothing is 100%.  If people fail, they go into some great depression.
> 
> I used to see this all the time in HS sports and even in the martial arts.  You'd swear some of these people were playing for a million bucks, with the way they'd act.  Parents on the sidelines, yelling at the kids.  Nice to make your kid feel like **** if Godforbid **GASP*** they lose!
> 
> Now, dont mistake this for me saying that winning isn't important.  Sure, it is.  But also understand that you can't always be a winner.


Very few people have the combination of tangible and intangible traits required to compete or perform at an elite level.  That goes for anything, whether sports or whatever.  

One of the greatest gifts we can give to our children is to teach them that playing a musical instrument has value, even if you won't be the next {insert rock star}.  Playing sports is valuable even if you won't make millions as a pro.  There is value in self improvement.

As I said earlier, winning every competition is an unreasonable expectation.  Competing to win is something we should all expect.  Learning to win AND lose with grace are important life lessons, but there's a third lesson, too.  That is to be a quality competitor.  To compete with grace, training seriously and competing with every intention of winning is the goal.  If you do this, the outcome doesn't matter.  If you don't, you're making excuses before you even start and, IMO, disrespecting yourself and your opponent(s).


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## shesulsa (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Here it is, again. How does this show up for me to view if I've hit the ignore button? I guess I'm making it up - like everything else I post...



Did you follow my suggestions?


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> Did you follow my suggestions?


 Yes, taken care of. I don't know weather to thank you or ignore you too, after the uncalled for PM you sent me about you ripping me and me being a loser. I still don't get it, but I realize you were trying to provoke me. ATTEMPT FAILED!


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## shesulsa (Nov 1, 2011)

Heh - back on the topic of winning and losing ... I liken the philosophical examination of these "opposites" to that of training and testing.  Some people think their grading or rank testing happens on the examination date. The TRUTH, however, is that every single day is a test; how hard are you going to train, how smart are you going to train, how are you going to accommodate your limitations and use your talents to compensate? Are you paying attention or are you just f&#cking around? Do you perform every day to the best of your ability so you can improve or do you just complete what you have to in order to get by?

It's not the end result, it's not even the first step - it's the path getting there.  If you fall a couple of times, you'd better get up and keep going, because *that* is winning. No one gives you a medal for the *real* winning ... getting up everyday and going forward *anyway* ... THAT plus an attitude of gratitude?  THAT is truly winning.

Winners don't need to denigrate others to "win" they don't bask in speaking harshly to others ... people who do that and who wear an award on their chests like a brownie button haven't grasped the importance of the path, the process.  Because Life isn't about getting to heaven in the end - it's about living heaven every single day right here ... as you dust, vaccuum, buy groceries, pick up the kids, pay the bills, fight the cancer, get the brows waxed, etcetera.  

Even amateurs know that winning is making progress or striving towards it.

Peace, y'all. I'm out.


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## shesulsa (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Yes, taken care of. I don't know weather to thank you or ignore you too, after the uncalled for PM you sent me about you ripping me and me being a loser. I still don't get it, but I realize you were trying to provoke me. ATTEMPT FAILED!



I recommend you report the PM. You can find that link at the bottom right of the dialog box. And yes, please do ignore me. I have ignored you. =)


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 1, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I recommend you report the PM. You can find that link at the bottom right of the dialog box. And yes, please do ignore me. I have ignored you. =)


 No report needed - delete and ignore is enough for me. I won't be a cry baby and get others involved - I get the feeling that they'd take your side, regardless of who's right or wrong... it's kinda like fighting my opponent on the mat - and having his dad referee the match while his two uncles serve as the judges.


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## Carol (Nov 1, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:
> 
> If winning is irrelevant, then why do so many athletes train, practice and sacrifice so much, so hard and so regularly, in order to do so... sweating, bleeding and on occation crying, due to pain, exhaustion and injury, some even cheating, doping and/or using performance enhansement drugs, in order to win at whatever sport they participate in?



Because when you pour your heart, soul, and mind to a pursuit that involves pushing the body to its limit, the pursuit is going to have a beginning and an end, be it time periods, or rounds fought, or distance covered.  You start with energy.  Your heart surges by the positive moments, your jaw set as you get through the negative moments.  When you finally get do get to the end, you don't wonder about whether you did your best, you KNOW whether you did everything that you could to do your best.  Your body tells you.

Then you leave the arena or the gym or the game, and climb in to your car to go to dinner.  When you get back home to your kitchen or to your restaurant of choice, you climb out of the car and realize your body is fiercely stiff.  Everything hurts as you limp your way inside.  You're so tired you're not even thinking clearly.  But that cup of soup or plate of salad or bowl of pasta or cut of meat tastes like the most delicious thing you ever had.  Despite the pain you're feeling good. Very good.  Perhaps you have an adult beverage, or perhaps you just enjoy draining a cup of water that's actually cold and icy and not lukewarm.

You finish your dinner and wind down the day enveloped by a sense of calm....even if you're damn sore.  And you wake up the next day feeling in freaking credible.  Even if you're sore, even if all you want to do is rest, you've got a charge running through you like no other.  Its why you keep going back and why you won't give it up.  

At least...that's how it is for me.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 1, 2011)

Thread locked pending staff review


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