# Your 1st Dan testing..



## Sylo (Dec 15, 2008)

I wanted to get a fresh look at what different schools require as far as testing for 1st dan goes.

what did you have to endure?
be detailed.


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## terryl965 (Dec 15, 2008)

For me it was three days

1st day all about conditioning

second day was kikcs and punches combo's and then self defense and one steps.

3rd day was sparring all day one on one two on one and three on one, if you was able to stand to recieve your BB you did if not you tested again.

It was more about your mental then physical, as the instruvtor already knew you knew it just if you could endure it.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 15, 2008)

Mine was in 1985. I was 17. I'm not I can remember all the details. It was 3 hours long & I tested alongside the gup students. I did all the forms alongside the gups students in addition to doing them alone. One-steps, sparring several people (including all BB's who were in attendance...3-4), breaking.

It was in front of a master whom I'd never met before.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 15, 2008)

Ours was a closed test for students testing for BB's and dans only.

Our instructor flew in a fellow instructor that had been a student in the same dojang at the same time, and he gave the instruction to all of us.

We first had to do line drills in various combos...and we had to do them at full speed and intensity, hitting target pads held by the judge.  This was done for the first 25 minutes.

Next, we had to perform the forms from Chon-Ji to our current form, twice, at our own time.

After that, we had to break boards...I had to break 4 stations of 2 boards:  a back-elbow, reverse punch, spinning backfist, and axe kick...I was not allowed to concentrate before each break...instead, I was given enough time to set up the stations to the point I wanted them, and I was allowed 2 "dry runs" to make sure the distances were right...and then I had to break at full speed, as if performing a combo against opponents.

After that, I had to spar a 1st dan who was testing for 2nd, who outweighed me by 65 pounds at the time, and then another recommended blackbelt who was roughly the same size as I was.  I sparred each person for 3 3-minute rounds.  After that, I sparred 2 other recommended blackbelts at the same time that were roughly the same size as I was for 3 3-minute rounds.

Once we were through with that, we were told to line up and perform axe kicks at full speed and intensity until the judge was tired.  We did this for about 15 minutes, non-stop.

After we were told to stop that, we had to perform our forms from Chon-Ji up again twice.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 15, 2008)

*TKD*
1st dan
chun ji
tan gun
to san
won hyo
yul gook
guen gwen
hwa rang
chug mu
chul gi
bassai

then all punches and kicks

then 20 one steps (8 set, 12 made up)

Self Defense

Knife defense

breaking 8 boards total, 2 boards at a time

sparring

Mine was 22 fights, including 1-1, 2-1, and 3-1, all against BB's

2nd dan was
4 kata
3 step sparring
bull in the ring vs 6 attackers for 5 minutes
specialty (i did kenpo self defense demo vs multiple attackers)
Made up bo kata, min 40 moves
breaks
4 fights vs BB's 



Kenpo was harder mentally and easier physically

about 75 self defense techniques

4 kenpo kata
2 shotokan kata
1 lua kata
1 weapon kata

breaking (very unusual in a kenpo school, but the guy was a maverick)
3 inch punch through 2 boards

no sparring (i still had a busted nose from the last sparring class)


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## RobertS (Dec 16, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Mine was 22 fights, including 1-1, 2-1, and 3-1, all against BB's



22 fights?  Wow.

This thread is interesting to me because we get to see the differences of focus and standards for different schools to some extent.

My 1st dan test:

Several Forms (Palgwe forms, and Hwarang)

One-steps, Two-steps, and Three-steps with and without takedowns

I think we did knife defense but I could be confusing that with the previous test (temporary/recommended black belt test)

Falls and rolls

Contact sparring (with gear-more or less olympic style)

2 on 1 sparring (vs two third dans with no gear and only light contact)

Breaking (had to break a concrete slab with a ridgehand)

Questions about terminology, philosophy etc.


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 16, 2008)

Good question. Hope I can remember what happened.

First was a ton of basics. 
stances, punches, strikes, kicks, foot maneuvers

After that was the forms. Chong-Ji through Choong-Moo. 

Next, came the self defense techniques.
There were a lot of techniques to do. 

Lastly, there was a 30 minute sparring session between me & the other guy who was testing for first black.


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## KELLYG (Dec 17, 2008)

light warm 
200 to 300 single punches in horse stance if not more  
45 min blocking if not longer
45 min kicking if not longer
45 min combo blocks and kicks if not longer 
every form from (taeguek) white up twice  at different counts
all self defenses taught from white up 5 one one-steps each level
endurance drills 30 to 45 min if not longer
breaking  five self designed breaks
sparing  usually with an elite sparing team member. 

we were tested by masters outside of our school to insure non bias grading.  testing was opened to public, friends, family, and fellow students.


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## bluekey88 (Dec 17, 2008)

I've detailed my 1st dan test in a coupel of old posts...unfortunately do not have the time to dig them up.

Short version,
Have to demonstrate all 8 taeguk forms plus koryo, 10 prescribed self defesne techs, 10 prescribed one step punch sparring techs, 4 different kicking combinations (prescribed), 1 minute instant creation self defense, breaking (5 different breaks prescribed), 2 on 1 sparring no pads medium contact, grappling (back to back and from back press position...so at least 3 rounds), dive tumbling/falling skills, self defense from knife (3 prescribed techs), treminology, written essay, physical skills (25 pushups, 50 rowing excercises).

Peace,
Erik


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## miguksaram (Dec 17, 2008)

1) Write the check
2) Sign the check
3) Hand the check over to Grandmaster
4) Wait for check to clear
-Note- Step 1 could be substituted with cash or money order. ha.ha.ha. Kidding

My first black belt was in TSD.  We did the following:

A - Techniques - All techniques (blocks kicks punches) from White - Black belt...you were supposed to do them 10 times each per side, but the average was about 15-20 times each.  You had to do stance work, shifting and moving in your stances, which entailed executing technique combos

B - Self Defense - 10 pre-arranged SD techniques vs. punches, 20 free form SD techniques vs punches, SD vs knife (5), SD vs stick (5), SD vs wrist grab (5), SD vs lapel grab (5), free form SD vs grabs (10)

C - Forms - Kicho 1-3, Pyoung-ahn 1-5, Palgue 1-8, Bassai

D - Sparring 2 minute rounds - 1 vs 1 (4), 2 vs 1 (3), 3 vs 1 (2), Instructor vs you (1)

E - Breaking - 1 Hand, 1 foot, 1 head, 1 demo

F - Weapons - If you had a weapon form you did it (He did't teach weapons as a formal lesson, only if you were doing tournaments)

For my 1st dan in Kumdo

8 basic cutting Set 1-3
5 two man sets
5 Hwarang O'Gae forms
2 Advance forms
5 rounds of sparring (5 minutes per round different opponents)

For my first dan in KKWTKD

All techniques
Taeguk 1-8
One Step Sparring
Breaking.

It was an easy test to say the least.

When I go for my Shorei the format is this - 

Techniques from White to Black
Ippon kumite kata - 1 - 15
Tazu nara waza - 1-10
Circular self defense (pre-arranged) 1-8
Advance self defense (pre-arranged) 1-10
Free form self defense

Katas - Taikiyoko 1-3, Wansu, Anaku, Empi Sho, Gyakusei, Tai Ichi Gedon, Bassai-Dai, Seuonchin, Sanchin, Taichi Neko, Dahnanho (any other forms you may have learned for traditional tournaments as well as any other forms from prior training)

You will need to know bunkai for all katas performed.  You will need to know hidden moves as well as history of katas

Weapons - Bo, Tonfa, Sai, Kama, Nunchaku (must know theory for each as well as history).  You will have to run all weapon katas as well as implement them in empty hand katas.  You will have to run any other weapons that you learned in prior training.

Sparring - We do not have formal sparring.  What you do is called walking the line.  All black belts line up and will execute some sort of technique.  You will counter and try to move up to the next person in line.  The next person can execute as soon as he sees your "finishing move" with the first person.  They can punch, kick, take down, whatever.  You are done when you finally pass a certain distance.

The average time for the test is about 4-6 hours all done in one setting.


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## YoungMan (Dec 17, 2008)

Demonstrate Palgue Chil and Pal, free fight three separate people, combination break.  This is a 1st Dan testing, not Marine basic training.  Never understood three day testings or fighting 22 people. You can't tell someone's worthiness in 20 minutes?


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## Sukerkin (Dec 17, 2008)

Is the question specific to TKD?

I ask only because the very concept of having to 'endure' for a belt test is a little strange to me.  

In my Lau days, we were drilled until physically exhausted before testing to show that technique was inate and not reliant on physical freshness but to construct an examination to deliberately 'abuse' the student to see if they will quit ...

A test should be a formality.  You wouldn't be doing it if you weren't ready and didn't have the requisite skills and attributes.  Turning it into a Japanese game show (you know the sorts I mean) just sits wrongly with my concept of how the martial arts should be.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 17, 2008)

My I dan test was back in 1989 when I was 18. If I recall everything correctly it went like this:

*Patterns:*
Saju Chirigi
Saju Makki
Chon-Ji
Dan-Gun
Do-Son
Won-Hyo
Yul-Gok
Joon-Gun
Toi-Gye
Hwa-Rang
Choong-Moo

*Fundamental Exercises:*
Fee combinations back and forth across the floor demonstrating techniques from all gup levels.
Free combinations on body shields.
Demonstrated various kicking techniques as directed by instructor.

*Sparring:*
3 step sparring
1 step sparring
Free sparring against one other red belt.
Free sparring against a black belt.
Free sparring against another higher ranked black belt.
Free sparring against two opponents.
(Note: My instructors have since added 2 step sparring and semi-free sparring to their testing syllabus.)

*Breaking:*
5 boards with a side piercing kick.
1 board, suspended break, with a reverse turning kick.
1 board, suspended break, with a knife-hand strike.
Flying twin footed front kick, one board with each foot. 

*Theory:*
Written paper on some aspect of Taekwon-Do. Mine was about 7-8 pages long on sport versus traditional martial arts.
Verbal testing on terminology for various techniques and the different aspects of the Theories of Power.

I was plenty tired at the end of an almost 3 hour test and I didn't even even spend three days testing nor did I do 10,000 push ups. Those kind of things are fine in training, to be honest, but they fit better in special training camps or even (and perhaps better) in individual training excursions undertaken in private where the person pushes himself to and past his previous limits. They have nothing to do with rank but rather relate to training and forging one's spirit. 

Pax,

Chris


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 18, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Is the question specific to TKD?
> 
> I ask only because the very concept of having to 'endure' for a belt test is a little strange to me.
> 
> ...


 
I agree in a way.  It is true that if you weren't ready for the test, then you wouldn't be testing.  But that's the key:  you're ready for the *test*, not what comes after the test.  In a way, it kind of goes into the question of why have a formal test...why not just have your instructor judge whether or not you're ready without your knowledge that you're being tested?

Testing, IMO, can be viewed as a formality.  But, then again, college students are required to take final exams to determine if they need to go back over the cirriculum again...some have the option of bypassing the test, but normally everyone takes finals.

A blackbelt test is like a final exam to me.  Now, I agree that the test shouldn't be "game show" material, but it also shouldn't just be a walk in the park, either.  Wearing someone down before their test to the point of exhaustion and then have them complete the test is a test in itself.  It's all in how you look at it.

I have seen people fail blackbelt testings.  They could come to a regular class, have good technique, good attitudes, and comprehension of the material...but, once it came time to test, and were tested under the same things they were taught in class, they didn't perform as well as they needed to.  Now, in some cases, this can be considered under the notion of "test anxiety"...but, you can you usually tell who has test anxiety and who just has poor peformance.

But I do understand where you're coming from.


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## terryl965 (Dec 18, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Demonstrate Palgue Chil and Pal, free fight three separate people, combination break. This is a 1st Dan testing, not Marine basic training. Never understood three day testings or fighting 22 people. You can't tell someone's worthiness in 20 minutes?


 
Well for my GM it was about your mental discipline more so techniques, he knew you knew but was you willing to put your body though hell if need be. The physical part was just to test your mental strentgth. See some still believe you must be mentally strong to recieve a BB and just not go though the motion.


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## Sylo (Dec 18, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Is the question specific to TKD?
> 
> I ask only because the very concept of having to 'endure' for a belt test is a little strange to me.
> 
> ...


 

I agree more than I disagree with this.

An exam in school, would consist of things you already know/have been taught. Not to say it won't be difficult, but you should know or have the ability to decipher exactly what to do to pass. Thats kind of the idea. I don't disagree or agree with the long drawn out testings some of the users here have had to endure. I see why they were made to do this, but I also see why it wouldn't make a difference if you didn't. I'm tested physically every single time I go to class. I feel like the test should be a direct correllation to what I have been taught in class. I'm not sure testing should be an "iron man" contest as it is in some schools. It should be difficult, yes.. but it shouldn't just be a "lets see how long you can go til you fall out" thing either.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 18, 2008)

Sylo said:


> I wanted to get a fresh look at what different schools require as far as testing for 1st dan goes.
> 
> what did you have to endure?
> be detailed.


1. Write and recite an essay on how Taekwondo changed your life.  
2. Know the Korean vocabulary used in class.
3. Warm up and calisthenics.
4. All techniques.
5. One steps.
6. Perform Taegeuks il-jang through pal-jang without error.
7. 100 round house kicks, axe kicks, front kicks, and side kicks alternating from right leg to left leg, 100 punches.
8. Breaking of three stacked 1" pine boards using whatever technique GM Kim calls out (for me it was a knife hand, a jump side kick, and a jump axe kick if I remember correctly).
9. Sparring four students WTF style for two three minute rounds apiece.
10. Maintain composure and proper etiquette throughout the testing.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 18, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Is the question specific to TKD?
> 
> I ask only because the very concept of having to 'endure' for a belt test is a little strange to me.


I had to do a similar test for kendo.  At our school, the test is a test.  It is assumed that you know the material: the test is to challenge the student under pressure and to test the student's mental composure when he or she is physically exhausted and cannot rely on things such as youth or natural strength and speed when the sparring starts.

Daniel


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## Sylo (Dec 18, 2008)

Brandonlucas goes to the same school as me.. but it seems the testing procedures for black have changed... or are at least lessened for the younger folk.

the last black belt test I witnessed.. it went as follows.

1. stretching
2. basic techniques
3. all kicks
4. forms white to black in succession
5. essay about how tae kwon do has help me
6. Breaking. 4 stations 2 boards each.. you pick the techniques.
7. sparring - 1 vs. 1 for 2 3 minute rounds, 2 vs. 1 for 2 - 3 minute rounts, 3 vs. 1 for 2 - 3 minute rounds


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## Manny (Dec 18, 2008)

Back in 1987 when I did my firsth dan black belt examination, the examn took several hours, we did punches,kicks,blocking technikes at first, then we did poomse, then we did light sparring,then self defense aplications (on step, three steps and long), then breaking and finally full sparring (olly wearing shin protectors if you like) with three oponents.

Today as long as I know the black belt testings are, morning one (very early) conditioning, day two technikes, and day three, technikes,board breaking,self defense,poomse and sparring (one on one or with more guys).

Manny


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## YoungMan (Dec 19, 2008)

I agree, and most of the judges I know can tell that within 20 minutes, based on how aggressively you do form, free fighting, and break. Again, you're not graduating from Marine basic training here.


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## CDKJudoka (Dec 19, 2008)

TKD-Old ITF Style

1st Dan BB testing.

All Basic Techniques- Stances, Blocks, Kicks, Hand techniques
All of the 1 steps 3 per Gup, until Brown Belt which has 12.
4 station two board breaks
5 Original 1 steps and 5 hapkido SD
And the "Gauntlet". Basically 45 mins of medium to full contact sparring against any BBs testing for there promotion. All gear except for hand and foot pads, takedowns allowed.
All Forms from 10th Gup up to 1st Dan
2 Original Weapons forms with Short Stick and Long Staff.


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 19, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> *TKD*
> 1st dan
> chun ji
> tan gun
> ...


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 19, 2008)

one on one fighting for about 30 min, then one on two for another 30 min, then the ultimate three on one for 30 min. Then if you can stand you get your stripe!


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## miguksaram (Dec 19, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Demonstrate Palgue Chil and Pal, free fight three separate people, combination break. This is a 1st Dan testing, not Marine basic training. Never understood three day testings or fighting 22 people. You can't tell someone's worthiness in 20 minutes?


 
I've got to ask...who are you to question someone else's testing?  First and foremost, there is a lot more to some people's testing than if they know the material.  Some testings are meant to build character or make you feel you are part of a higher group of people.  

If we are to question worthiness in 20 minutes, then why not just give them a belt when you first meet the student.  Can't you tell if they are worth of it then?  After that they just have to learn the material and won't have to focus on the 2 inch piece of cloth wrapped around their waist.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 19, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> 10. Maintain composure and proper etiquette throughout the testing.


 
And this may well be the most important part of the testing, especially when you're under the high pressure usually associated with dan testings. Maintaining composure and displaying proper etiquette shows that you've reached a certain level of maturity as a person and it may also allow you to deal with stress better so that you may perform the required techniques better.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 19, 2008)

Oops, a slight update to my previous posting. My instructors also had a portion of the black belt exam dedicated to *flexibility*. We would have to demonstrate front and side splits as well as other stretches. This was a common area for testing from 10th gup through III dan.

Pax,

Chris


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## Sukerkin (Dec 19, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> I've got to ask...who are you to question someone else's testing?


 
I'm not so sure you took that point the way it was intended.  Also, given the stark nature of 'conversation' on the Net, you words may well have come across as far ruder than you think.



miguksaram said:


> First and foremost, there is a lot more to some people's testing than if they know the material. Some testings are meant to build character or make you feel you are part of a higher group of people.


 
I think some of us are coming at this from the view that those administering the testing know the students involved and thus it is a given that they 'know' the material.  To my mind, the point at which testing is taking place is not really the time for the student to be building character; tho' if your meaning is that they show their character then, I agree.  Again, if the students are known to the examiners then this is moot.



miguksaram said:


> If we are to question worthiness in 20 minutes, then why not just give them a belt when you first meet the student. Can't you tell if they are worth of it then? After that they just have to learn the material and won't have to focus on the 2 inch piece of cloth wrapped around their waist.


 
I think a slight misinterpretation of the posters meaning.  I know that I certainly can form a reliable judgement of a student of higher grade quite quickly and that is what I feel he meant.  

A beginner, however, would be much more problematic.  You cannot really judge very accurately how a person will grow in the arts until they've been at it a while (tho' some are clearly not in it for the 'long road' when you first lay eyes on them ).


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## miguksaram (Dec 19, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm not so sure you took that point the way it was intended. Also, given the stark nature of 'conversation' on the Net, you words may well have come across as far ruder than you think.


 


			
				youngman said:
			
		

> This is a 1st Dan testing, not Marine basic training. Never understood three day testings or fighting 22 people. You can't tell someone's worthiness in 20 minutes?


 
With this statement made, it sounds like he is belittling the other person's test because it was more strict than his own...plus the last comment questions the testing methodology as well as the judgement of the instructor, in my opinoin, in a rude way.  Perhaps a better way for the poster to phrase it would just be to ask the question "Is there a reason for the long test?" or "What is the tradition behind having to do the long test?" or simply "Wow, your test seems a bit harsh any reason why?"  

If he finds my questioning of his questioning rude then perhaps a revisit of the original post made by YM would in order to see why I would pop off like that.  I make no apologies for the question or whatever tone it may come off as based on the current understanding that I have.





> I think some of us are coming at this from the view that those administering the testing know the students involved and thus it is a given that they 'know' the material. To my mind, the point at which testing is taking place is not really the time for the student to be building character; tho' if your meaning is that they show their character then, I agree. Again, if the students are known to the examiners then this is moot.


 
Yet, it seems like even though TKD has the largest population of marital artists also has the biggest drop out rate amongst 1st dan black belts as well especially amongst kids.  Character building is an on going process at any given time.  Testing not only builds character but it can test their character.  I've seen people give up during a black belt test before and most likely I will see it again.  I have seen people fail a black belt test and drop out because of it.  What does that say about their character?  




> I think a slight misinterpretation of the posters meaning. I know that I certainly can form a reliable judgement of a student of higher grade quite quickly and that is what I feel he meant.
> 
> A beginner, however, would be much more problematic. You cannot really judge very accurately how a person will grow in the arts until they've been at it a while (tho' some are clearly not in it for the 'long road' when you first lay eyes on them ).


 
Right.  I agree that you can't make character judgements for newbies.  In the same since you really can't make correct character judgements on long term people.  Example, when judging the black belt applicant, do you judge him on his hard work and mental capacity of being able to remember curriculum like a robot?  Or do you judge him in a high stress situation where you have several seniors getting on his butt and pushing him to his limits making sure he is strong not to second guess his own answers?  And I'm talking about 3 black belts sitting behind a table resting their butts, but up and in his face.

I'm not saying one method is better than the other, I am saying no one has to right to question in a rude way (again my opinoin) another person's testing methods or make off the wall comparisons.


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## YoungMan (Dec 22, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> I've got to ask...who are you to question someone else's testing? First and foremost, there is a lot more to some people's testing than if they know the material. Some testings are meant to build character or make you feel you are part of a higher group of people.
> 
> If we are to question worthiness in 20 minutes, then why not just give them a belt when you first meet the student. Can't you tell if they are worth of it then? After that they just have to learn the material and won't have to focus on the 2 inch piece of cloth wrapped around their waist.


 
1st Dan means you have a solid understanding of the basics of your art, nothing more or less. Therefore, to me, a two day test involving everything you ever learned is unnecessary and overkill.  I could probably tell whether you deserve 1st Dan in 15-20 minutes by watching your form and free sparring and seeing whether your breaking meets certain criteria. I don't need to see you do every form you ever learned, spar 20 people, and do 15 breaks. Not necessary. And after teaching you for 2-3 years to the black belt level, I would hope by that point I know where your mind is. 
If your instructor needs two days to figure out whether or not you deserve 1st Dan, maybe you need a new instructor.


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## TKDHermit (Dec 22, 2008)

Wow compared to y'all, Singapore's grading is considered simple. For geup grades, clubs with more than 250 members can undergo supplementary grading, at their own region, with 2 or 3 examiners coming down. If less than 250, then centralized grading. For Dan grades, we undergo centralized grading by the Singapore Taekwondo Federation, the only recognized organisation governing KKW/WTF TKD in Singapore.

Anyway, the requirements for 1st Dan are as follows:

Taeguek Pal-Jang
Taeguek Il to Chil-Jang (1 pattern) ​360 turning kick followed by back kick
(2 time each A to B & B to A) 
Free (2 round with the same grade and 1 round with a 1st Dan blackbelt)​


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## TKDHermit (Dec 22, 2008)

sorry i meant to sae sparring, free sparring.


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## TKDHermit (Dec 22, 2008)

bah sorry for triple post, but i think i should put it nicely in one post instead -.-

Anyway, the requirements for 1st Dan are as follows:

*Poomsae*
Taeguek Pal-Jang
Taeguek Il to Chil-Jang (1 random poomsae, examiner picks)
*_if I'm not wrong, the poomsae are supposed to be performed at a standard of score 7.0 or above [as in poomsae competition scoring system] in order to pass, although scores are not actually calculated like in poomsae competitions._

*Technique Demonstration*
360 turning kick followed by back thrust (2 times each A to B & B to A)

*Kyeorugi*
Free (1 round each with 2 1st Geups and 1 round with a 1st Dan)


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## miguksaram (Dec 22, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> 1st Dan means you have a solid understanding of the basics of your art, nothing more or less. Therefore, to me, a two day test involving everything you ever learned is unnecessary and overkill. I could probably tell whether you deserve 1st Dan in 15-20 minutes by watching your form and free sparring and seeing whether your breaking meets certain criteria. I don't need to see you do every form you ever learned, spar 20 people, and do 15 breaks. Not necessary. And after teaching you for 2-3 years to the black belt level, I would hope by that point I know where your mind is.
> If your instructor needs two days to figure out whether or not you deserve 1st Dan, maybe you need a new instructor.


 
So you are saying people like myself and Terryl should find new instructors because ours choose to push us not only physically but mentally for our black belts.  Hmmmm....interesting. 

So tell me, why even bother testing at all?  Why do you need only 15-20 minutes.  Couldn't you tell within the 2-3 years that you have been training them if they deserve the black belt or not?  Or is the testing more for you than them so you get a chance to sit behind a desk with all the other big shots looking important?


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## Sukerkin (Dec 22, 2008)

Play nicely, gentlemen.  

Sniping at each other, no matter how well phrased the language, is outside the parameters of the agreement you signed up to when you joined.

By all means feel free to strongly disagree with each others points of view on the issue but constrain the responses to discussing the subject rather than imbedding barbs in each other.


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## CDKJudoka (Dec 22, 2008)

Osu!! Well said.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 22, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> 1st Dan means you have a solid understanding of the basics of your art, nothing more or less. Therefore, to me, a two day test involving everything you ever learned is unnecessary and overkill.


I agree with you regarding what a first dan means.  And with a KKW first dan consisting of *nothing but KKW material*, I think a couple of hours is sufficient.  Having said that, some schools have a more comprehensive curriculum.  



YoungMan said:


> I could probably tell whether you deserve 1st Dan in 15-20 minutes by watching your form and free sparring and seeing whether your breaking meets certain criteria. I don't need to see you do every form you ever learned, spar 20 people, and do 15 breaks. Not necessary. And after teaching you for 2-3 years to the black belt level, I would hope by that point I know where your mind is.


Again, I agree with you.  For the most part, an instructor does know this.  But what if the instructor isn't the one testing the student, but some GM who flies in from, say, Oakland California who does all testings and has never seen the student before?



YoungMan said:


> If your instructor needs two days to figure out whether or not you deserve 1st Dan, maybe you need a new instructor.


I would agree, except that in most tests, the instructor isn't actually trying to figure it out; they already _know_ if the student is ready, other wise the student wouldn't be testing.  Often the test is also a lesson in and of itself, to prove something not to the instructor, but to the student taking the test.  Perhaps to prove to the student that they really _can_ withstand a level of rigor that they have never been subjected to.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Dec 22, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Play nicely, gentlemen.
> 
> Sniping at each other, no matter how well phrased the language, is outside the parameters of the agreement you signed up to when you joined.
> 
> By all means feel free to strongly disagree with each others points of view on the issue but constrain the responses to discussing the subject rather than imbedding barbs in each other.


 
I'm not taking jabs.  My question was one that I am seriously asking.  Why bother with a test if it can be determine in 20 minutes or less if the person testing is black belt material or not.  Who is the test for?  The guy testing or the people testing them?

If I was going to make a jab it would be more along the line of "You mean to tell me it takes you less time to test someone for a black belt than it does to order a pizza?"


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## YoungMan (Dec 22, 2008)

Every organization, whether KKW, ITF, ATA etc., has certain criteria of what someone testing for 1st Dan should meet. Either you meet those criteria or you do not. Either you have good stances, balance, accuracy, stopping power, and speed, or you do not. I do not need to see you do every form you ever learned to tell this. The final forms are sufficient. I do not need to see you spar 30 people until you drop to determine if your ability is worthy of 1st Dan. Sparring several people will tell me the same thing. Same with breaking. 2-3 well placed breaks will tell me if your speed, accuracy, stopping power etc. is adequate. Now, if there are only a few people testing, I may want to see more because I have more time.  But essentially, any legitimate Master or GM should be able to tell within 20 minutes whether a 1st Dan candidate is ready.
I am reminded of the quote by Albert Einstein who, when told that 100 scientists had signed a petition stating he was wrong, replied, "Why 100? If I'm wrong 1 will do."


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## miguksaram (Dec 22, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Every organization, whether KKW, ITF, ATA etc., has certain criteria of what someone testing for 1st Dan should meet. Either you meet those criteria or you do not. Either you have good stances, balance, accuracy, stopping power, and speed, or you do not. I do not need to see you do every form you ever learned to tell this. The final forms are sufficient. I do not need to see you spar 30 people until you drop to determine if your ability is worthy of 1st Dan. Sparring several people will tell me the same thing. Same with breaking. 2-3 well placed breaks will tell me if your speed, accuracy, stopping power etc. is adequate. Now, if there are only a few people testing, I may want to see more because I have more time. But essentially, any legitimate Master or GM should be able to tell within 20 minutes whether a 1st Dan candidate is ready.
> I am reminded of the quote by Albert Einstein who, when told that 100 scientists had signed a petition stating he was wrong, replied, "Why 100? If I'm wrong 1 will do."


 

Right you have already said this.  Why not answer my question about why can't you just give him/her the belt without the testing if you already know that they have earned it.  Why waste the 20 minutes?


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 22, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Every organization, whether KKW, ITF, ATA etc., has certain criteria of what someone testing for 1st Dan should meet. Either you meet those criteria or you do not. Either you have good stances, balance, accuracy, stopping power, and speed, or you do not. I do not need to see you do every form you ever learned to tell this. The final forms are sufficient. I do not need to see you spar 30 people until you drop to determine if your ability is worthy of 1st Dan. Sparring several people will tell me the same thing. Same with breaking. 2-3 well placed breaks will tell me if your speed, accuracy, stopping power etc. is adequate. Now, if there are only a few people testing, I may want to see more because I have more time. But essentially, any legitimate Master or GM should be able to tell within 20 minutes whether a 1st Dan candidate is ready.
> I am reminded of the quote by Albert Einstein who, when told that 100 scientists had signed a petition stating he was wrong, replied, "Why 100? If I'm wrong 1 will do."


 
I think Daniel actually had a very good response to this...

It could be that the person testing is being judged by someone that is not from their school and is impartial to the student.  And, really, IMO, that's the best way to test...that way, you're not getting a biased opinion on your technique and ability...there's no room for excusing a poor test performance on the student being sick or something along those lines.

If an outside judge comes in, they don't know the student that's testing personally, so they won't know what they're capable of on a regular day...so if the student is having an off day, it is going to appear to the judge as if the student needs more time at their current rank.

Even if they don't test in front of someone outside of their school, I don't see the harm in putting a student through a hard test to earn a 1st dan in any martial art.  Admittedly, I don't understand the 2 and 3 day tests, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should happen.  I simply don't understand them.  

A blackbelt is supposed to be earned through hard work and dedication.  Isn't it better to have a student subject themselves through a grueling exam, even if it lasts several days, than to pass them through in conveyor-belt fashion?


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## jks9199 (Dec 22, 2008)

Folks,
This particular forum is a Tae Kwon Do forum.  I hope there's some agreement about what a black belt means.  I also would hope that people who share an art can be reasonable, agreeable, polite, and courteous when they discuss the means of testing for black belt, or what their particular test was like.  I'd hate to see such a potentially interesting discussion become problematic.

jks9199
Moderator


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 22, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Even if they don't test in front of someone outside of their school, I don't see the harm in putting a student through a hard test to earn a 1st dan in any martial art. Admittedly, I don't understand the 2 and 3 day tests, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should happen. I simply don't understand them.
> 
> A blackbelt is supposed to be earned through hard work and dedication. Isn't it better to have a student subject themselves through a grueling exam, even if it lasts several days, than to pass them through in conveyor-belt fashion?


From what I have seen, heard from others, and read on forums like this, there is a great deal of latitude regarding first dan test.  Some instructors go for a more direct approach, such as what Youngman describes, and others seek to make the even more of a milestone than just a test.  Different instructors place value on different aspects of the art too.  

Not only that, some teach a great deal of additional material to what their parent org requires.  Thus one day could be the base curriculum, a second the additional material, and the third could be the intellectual/philosophical aspects of the art.  

We should keep in mind that some schools associate themselves with a parent org because they want their blackbelt/dan certs to have authority above just the individual school's say-so.  But that doesn't change the fact that *that* master has his or her own requirements for *that* school and an org such as the KKW serves only as a sanctioning body to provide the student with more "official" certificate.

Consider that the three day test doesn't have to be three full days.  It could be a total of six hours, but spread out over three days.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (Dec 22, 2008)

3-4 forms, 3 breaks and a couple fights wont tell you the most important thing:

Do they have HEART

Do they have WILL

Do they have FIRE

My system used to make people fight till they passed out, just to see if they would get back up.NO ONE got black belt without passing out or throwing up.

to see if they wanted it bad enough.

My own instructors have had me take a (adult) person testing for 1st dan and just manhandle them in sparring, grab thier gi, work thier ribs over till they couldnt breath right, sweep them and stomp on 'em

to see if they had HEART

If every school did this, we wouldnt have the curse of 5 yr old BB's

If every school did this, TKD would still be a respected SELF DEFENSE ART, not some Olympic slappy sport

First Degree Black Belt SHOULD be an endurance test, IMO

my student's tests will be

In fact,, i showed them the tape of my BB test after class on sat so they will know what they have in store for them


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 23, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> If every school did this, we wouldnt have the curse of 5 yr old BB's
> 
> If every school did this, TKD would still be a respected SELF DEFENSE ART, not some Olympic slappy sport
> 
> First Degree Black Belt SHOULD be an endurance test, IMO


These three sentences should be ingrained in the the minds of every aspiring school owner.  

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Dec 23, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I have seen, heard from others, and read on forums like this, there is a great deal of latitude regarding first dan test. Some instructors go for a more direct approach, such as what Youngman describes, and others seek to make the even more of a milestone than just a test. Different instructors place value on different aspects of the art too.
> 
> Not only that, some teach a great deal of additional material to what their parent org requires. Thus one day could be the base curriculum, a second the additional material, and the third could be the intellectual/philosophical aspects of the art.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed.  Everyone is different in what they do.  If what you do suits you and you sleep well at night, then so be it.  I just didn't appreciate the judgemental attitude YM took with those of us who have tests that last longer than 20 minutes and then tell us that perhaps we need to find different instructors if our current ones need to put us through a rigorous testing process to see if we are deserving of a black belt.  Sorry...my instructor has been in the game for over 40 years, so I would guess he knows a bit with what he is doing in his testing process.


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## YoungMan (Dec 24, 2008)

My instructor was practicing Taekwondo before it was even called Taekwondo. I fully trust his approach because he has never steered me wrong.
Keep in mind, it is a free country, and different instructors are free to pursue their own vision. I still fail to see what a three day 1st Dan test accomplishes that can't be done in half an hour.
I can judge someone fit to wear the black belt in 1/2 hour, and also decide they are not worthy to wear it within that time period, as I have also done.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 24, 2008)

If you don't mind me asking, Youngman, was your test limited to a half an hour?  That is was may be implied in your posts, but I wanted to clarify.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (Dec 24, 2008)

wernt you the one who's system has a 5 mile run in their BB test?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 24, 2008)

Not I.  It would have been cool if we had, though.

Daniel


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## faerie2 (Dec 25, 2008)

I am intrigued by this thread, we just had a (poom) BB test at our McDojang, and it was ... appalling! It really made me second guess whether I wanted to continue there at all. I do hope that they have different standards for the adults testing.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 25, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> I am intrigued by this thread, we just had a (poom) BB test at our McDojang, and it was ... appalling! It really made me second guess whether I wanted to continue there at all. I do hope that they have different standards for the adults testing.


I am of the firm belief that poom rank students should wear poom doboks and poom belts; poom doboks have a half black/half red collar and the poom belt is half black half red.  Then the less demending test would be more in line.  

Perhaps it was an appalling test for any upper belt of any age, so the poom belt may not solve the problem here.  Generally, I find that most schools with young kids just move them through the colored belt ranks because that's what the parents want and it keeps the school in business.  Not saying that I'm personally real thrilled with this, mind you; just that I understand the mentality.

Daniel


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## faerie2 (Dec 25, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am of the firm belief that poom rank students should wear poom doboks and poom belts; poom doboks have a half black/half red collar and the poom belt is half black half red.  Then the less demending test would be more in line.
> 
> Perhaps it was an appalling test for any upper belt of any age, so the poom belt may not solve the problem here.  Generally, I find that most schools with young kids just move them through the colored belt ranks because that's what the parents want and it keeps the school in business.  Not saying that I'm personally real thrilled with this, mind you; just that I understand the mentality.
> 
> Daniel



Interesting - is that the way it's done elsewhere too? At our (mc)Dojang, the "black stripe" (1st Gup) is half black, half red and the poom uniforms are red, with a black belt with gold print. THe instructors are the only adult BB's there, and their uniforms are white, black or blue.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 25, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am of the firm belief that poom rank students should wear poom doboks and poom belts; poom doboks have a half black/half red collar and the poom belt is half black half red. Then the less demending test would be more in line.


 


faerie2 said:


> Interesting - is that the way it's done elsewhere too?


No, not for the most part.  That is technically how it should be done though.  Very few schools are willing to tell mom and dad that their eight year old can't have his black belt until he's sixteen.


faerie2 said:


> At our (mc)Dojang, the "black stripe" (1st Gup) is half black, half red and the poom uniforms are red, with a black belt with gold print. THe instructors are the only adult BB's there, and their uniforms are white, black or blue.


Our school uses a red with a black stripe in the center for furst geub.  We have adult BB's who aren't instructors.  Our school uses the white dobok with the black collar or an all black dobok for blackbelts, though the kids never get the all black.  Not sure if that is by design or just how it works out.  Our poom rank students also have black belts with the golds stitching, just like yours does.  

Daniel


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## YoungMan (Dec 26, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you don't mind me asking, Youngman, was your test limited to a half an hour? That is was may be implied in your posts, but I wanted to clarify.
> 
> Daniel


 
Our 1st Dan tests are limited to whatever the judges and our GM want to see, which generally take no more than a half hour. Each candidate does Palgwe Chil and Pal no count, free fights at least three different people, and does a break that they feel represents their best technique. We don't make them run through every form they ever learned because it is unnecessary. Red belt forms should represent your cumulative technique up to that point. 
And yes, the judges can tell whether or not you deserve 1st Dan based on your performance in a half hour time frame. I can watch a student I've never seen before test for 1st Dan and decide whether or not they should be 1st Dan relatively quickly.


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## miguksaram (Dec 26, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> My instructor was practicing Taekwondo before it was even called Taekwondo. I fully trust his approach because he has never steered me wrong.
> Keep in mind, it is a free country, and different instructors are free to pursue their own vision. I still fail to see what a three day 1st Dan test accomplishes that can't be done in half an hour.
> I can judge someone fit to wear the black belt in 1/2 hour, and also decide they are not worthy to wear it within that time period, as I have also done.


 
Right...free country to test how you see fit.  Just because you don't understand it does not mean it is wrong.  Through out this whole thread you have implied that your method is the correct way of judging canidates for black belts and that if you don't follow this way or something close to it then your instructor should be questioned.  

How many instructors have you had?  How many different methods have you witnessed?  I have seen the gambit of 3 days tests down to an instructor just tossing the next belt to you and say congrats, now get back to work.  Everyone is different and has a different philosophy behind their method.  Perhaps you should open your mind and just accept than to condem based on how things are done in your little corner of the world.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 26, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> Right...free country to test how you see fit. Just because you don't understand it does not mean it is wrong. Through out this whole thread you have implied that your method is the correct way of judging canidates for black belts and that if you don't follow this way or something close to it then your instructor should be questioned.
> 
> How many instructors have you had? How many different methods have you witnessed? I have seen the gambit of 3 days tests down to an instructor just tossing the next belt to you and say congrats, now get back to work. Everyone is different and has a different philosophy behind their method. Perhaps you should open your mind and just accept than to condem based on how things are done in your little corner of the world.


 
There are many different ways to test for anything.  I have heard of alot of instructors that don't let the students know that they're testing, and just observe them over a period of time, and simply give them the black belt with no ceremony.

There are others who test over several days, with the instructor continuously trying to wear down the student to test their heart and spirit.

There's nothing wrong with either test.  As long as the person wearing the blackbelt can demonstrate at any given time that they deserve to wear the rank around their waist, then it doesn't matter how they earned it.

I think the OP was started to see what other methods of testing there are, and to get everyone's input in how a test is done for different schools and students...not implying that there is a right and wrong way.


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## KELLYG (Dec 26, 2008)

Every Black Belt test I have taken has been difficult. 4 to 6 hours with most of the time being on the floor and preforming.  

I also understand that with in 20 minutes of that time a person with a good eye can determine if my technique is worthy of Black Belt.

 But I also feel that more than technique is involved in being a black belt and that this can not be brought out of a person in 20 min. I think that the longer test do have a valid purpose.  I learned more about myself during the latter stages of an exhausting test than I ever did in a class room setting.  Technique can be retaught/corrected at a later time but showing a person there personal limits and pushing them beyond builds character that will stay with them a lifetime.


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## miguksaram (Dec 26, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I think the OP was started to see what other methods of testing there are, and to get everyone's input in how a test is done for different schools and students...not implying that there is a right and wrong way.


Agreed.  That is what I thought it was as well and it has been interesting to see the different methodology used.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 26, 2008)

I'll have to dig out the article, but earlier this year, Blackbelt magazine interviewed a man who had devised an "Ultimate Blackbelt Test" which took a year.  Needless to say, there were a lot of non-martial aspects to the test.  It involved philosphy, spirituality, being a good citizen, volunteering, artistic areas outside of the martial arts, such as poetry and painting, and of course, an essay.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 26, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'll have to dig out the article, but earlier this year, Blackbelt magazine interviewed a man who had devised an "Ultimate Blackbelt Test" which took a year. Needless to say, there were a lot of non-martial aspects to the test. It involved philosphy, spirituality, being a good citizen, volunteering, artistic areas outside of the martial arts, such as poetry and painting, and of course, an essay.
> 
> Daniel


 
Now that sounds like an in-depth test...and I can 100% see the merit in that.  

Now, I'll throw this out there for some more discussion:

If a person knows that they're being tested, do they perform any differently than they normally do?  If this is the case, then wouldn't a test be self-defeating?  How can a person deserve to wear a blackbelt rank that changes their M.O. only for the test?

Just food for thought and good, healthy discussion....


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## KELLYG (Dec 26, 2008)

If Black Belt candidates are being picked or advised to test by their Masters than they should have shown the black belt spirit in class.  The test at that point has already been taken and passed.  The actual black belt test is just a formality and important one but a formality just the same.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 26, 2008)

In line with what *Brandon* said above, for both of my post-kyu grade promotions, I never knew that I was being tested.  That's how it should be in my book.  It shall certainly be how I conduct things if the time should come where I stand in the shoes deciding such matters.


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## <_> (Dec 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> 3-4 forms, 3 breaks and a couple fights wont tell you the most important thing:
> 
> Do they have HEART
> 
> ...




You need self defense, and it should take more than a few years to get there to. I like the idea of the 5 mile run, you might throw in something like cpr training to.


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## Miles (Dec 28, 2008)

I have done black belt tests which were nearly 72 hours straight through and black belt tests which were only 4 hours long.  

When I test someone for black belt, I already know what they can do since I've been watching them for 4-5 yrs.  But I want them to demonstrate how much they want it to the other students and any spectators who might be there.  I recently tested a 12 yr old for his 1st poom (jr black belt).  He did all basics, demonstrated footwork and kicking drills, all 8 Taegueks, he broke boards with every kick I could think of, then he sparred.  He had to spar one-on-one about 6 times, then 2 on 1 for 4 minutes.  One of his opponents is his 320lb father (3rd dan) who gave no quarter.  

My point is that the black belt test is an important milestone and it should be memorable (bruise-worthy).  I don't need to have anyone get knocked out, but I want them to sweat and work their butts off.  The students represent me, and by extension, my instructors and Taekwondo.  I want them to be good ambassadors for TKD which has a bad enough reputation anyway.


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## Raistlin (Dec 28, 2008)

YoungMan,

  I believe that the kind of test you are referring to and the kind of test that some of the others on this board are referring to are two different kinds of tests. The one you are referring to tests the skills of an individual to see if they are at black belt level. In that case, 20 minutes is certainly long enough. The tests that I administer are not to test their skill level. I already know their skill level before the test starts. If it was not at black belt level, I would not be testing them. I am testing their indomitable spirit. I want to see if they will give up when they are pushed to their limits. I want to see if they can still perform when they are exhausted. I push their buttons to try to confuse them and make them lose their temper. I want to see that they can master themselves and focus. This is what separates a black belt from the rest. I want to be confident that my students are able to defend themselves. In a street fight, your adrenaline gets pumping, you get exhausted quickly. You have a lot of emotions to battle (fear, anxiety, excitement). It is not at all like a sparring match when you are fresh. I can take a gymnast and make him look like an impressive martial artist in a short time. There is a big difference between demonstrating some techniques for 20 minutes and showing focus and determination through extreme adversity and still have the ability to perform.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 29, 2008)

It should also be remembered that the Black Belt is the start and not the end.  It's a cliche but it's the truth.

The only absolute arbiter of skill is combat and we're not going to be getting that usually in modern society (thank goodness).  Turning a belt test into Endurance (the game show), as I said before, makes a mockery of the process, turning it into a "Just how ****ing hard are you then?" question.

From my own reasonably lengthy experience of the arts (twenty five years or so), this Action Man Movie testing is a recent, mostly American, phenomenon.  When I was doing empty-hand rather than armed arts, you didn't need a three-week test to know who was good and who wasn't.

If it makes people feel good about themselves and their school then fine - just don't confuse it with martial arts.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 30, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> It should also be remembered that the Black Belt is the start and not the end. It's a cliche but it's the truth.
> 
> The only absolute arbiter of skill is combat and we're not going to be getting that usually in modern society (thank goodness). Turning a belt test into Endurance (the game show), as I said before, makes a mockery of the process, turning it into a "Just how ****ing hard are you then?" question.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not sure about the line that I've bolded within your reply.  

I agree that the fanfare and pomp that goes along with blackbelt tests these days is more of a mondern thing...but I don't know about what you're saying.  

I think that the method of testing should be up to each instructor and should be individual for each student.  Not everyone can test on the same material under the same circumstances, so there's really no fair way to test everyone the same.

To me, (and this is just my opinion), martial arts are very individual.  Each martial art gives the student the blueprint to work from, and then the martial art is molded to the student's needs.  This, IMO, is where the "art" comes into play.

Now, since each person is working off of a blueprint, but the end result can often vary, then I don't think it's fair to subject each student to the same test for blackbelt.

I do agree with what you're saying about it being the start of the journey, though.  It's up to the instructor's discretion as to whether the student is ready to embark on that journey.  IMO, it's also up to the instructor as to *how* they decide the student is ready.

Either way, I still consider it 100% martial arts...*as long as the student has honestly earned the right to wear a blackbelt.*


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Each candidate does Palgwe Chil and Pal no count, free fights at least three different people, and does a break that they feel represents their best technique. *We don't make them run through every form they ever learned because it is unnecessary. Red belt forms should represent your cumulative technique up to that point*.


 
Coming into the discussion late, and not a TKDer myself, but this comment by YoungMan was made a couple times here, and I wanted to comment on it.

Personally, I think it can be a good idea to test the full system, because I think a lot of people tend to focus on the newer material and put the older material on the back burner.  In my opinion, learning a martial system is cumulative.  New material, while often based on and built upon earlier material, does not replace that earlier material.  Instead, it should ALL be a part of regular practice.  But sometimes people become too focused on the new stuff and forget to keep up with the earlier stuff.  So the earlier forms may become sloppy or rusty, or, worse case, be forgotten.  

If someone cannot competently demonstrate all the material that they have learned so far, then I might question their rank.  After all, the rank is an indicator both of skill and having a body of knowledge.  If the knowledge is leaking away, then is the rank merited?  So testing it all is a way of making sure the student is keeping up with it all.

If the curriculum is very large and this would require an unreasonably long test, then perhaps not everything needs to be tested.  Instead, there could be a random selection of things that the testers want to see, but they can choose anything from the entire curriculum and not just the most recent material.  This way, the candidate at least has to be prepared to do anything, because he won't know ahead of time exactly what will be called.

Anyway, this is just my thoughts on it.  I kind of feel that if the formality of a test is to be done, then do it all and make the candidate work hard for it.  I don't know that I agree with a multi-day test, but for some people that works.  But testing the entire curriculum, and making it last at least a few hours seems reasonable to me.  Force the candidate to show his heart and spirit and committment.

AFter all, by the time someone reaches shodan, he should have a genuine personal committment to training.  He shouldn't need the teacher to push him to train.  And part of this personal committment means being mature enough to recognize the value in the complete system.

On the other hand, Sukerkin has raised another valid point, that being that some schools don't test at all, Instead, they are constantly testing the student daily.  When they see the skill and committment and body of knowledge necessary shown daily, then the rank is simply given. This makes a lot of sense to me, and perhaps in a perfect world this would be the best way to do it.  I think this kind of thing works best with a small group, where the teacher really works closely with every student and therefore knows exactly where the student is in his developement.  In a larger school with lots of students, it may be more difficult for the teacher to keep such close tabs on a student's progress.

anyway, just my thoughts here...


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## KELLYG (Dec 30, 2008)

I understand where everyone is coming from.  I think that the black belt tester should demonstrate cumulative knowledge.  This cumulative testing could also be used by the Masters as a training tool.  They see a group of people all a the same level would they not also see where the holes in there teaching are?  If something is glaring apparent, is wrong, then this information could be used to make all students better?  

Question.  Are your black belt tests pre-formated or are the more off the cuff?


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## bgirl-kr (Dec 30, 2008)

I took my 1st dan grading at the age of 12 so i cant really remember all of the details.
But i travelled for 3 and a half hour to reach a TAGB grading hall. We warmed up for an hour and then 6 students were called into a hall by themselves were they were instructed on line work to do (a series of movements selcted for us) in front of a panel of 5 official tae Kwon Do masters. We were then tested on out pattern work, we had to perform the pattern for our grade, a pattern of their choice and then a pattern of our choice. 
I was then taken individually into another room where there were 4 other masters and asked theory questions. they consisted of meaning of patterns, translations of moves, the background of the art meanings of colours and many others. in all i think i  was asked about 9 questions.

After that i returned back to the hall i was in previously to spar. we have 5 opponants, each spar lasting about 3 minutes. 
after that we showed our respects to the masters andhad to leave the room. We had to wait around until the whole grading was over, before we were aloud to leave the building. i then had to wait 4 days for my instructor to find out if i had passed or not. 

Fortunatley it was good news 
hope this helps Katie


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 30, 2008)

Welcome to MT, Katie!

Daniel


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## TKDHermit (Jan 1, 2009)

faerie2 said:


> Interesting - is that the way it's done elsewhere too? At our (mc)Dojang, the "black stripe" (1st Gup) is half black, half red and the poom uniforms are red, with a black belt with gold print. THe instructors are the only adult BB's there, and their uniforms are white, black or blue.


 
Our 1st geups wear a maroon belt [which is why our 2nd and 1st geups can be interchangbly called brown/red, no idea why they dont wanna make a clear distinction to unify the "color"] with a black stripe [duct tape] on both edges of the belt, with the white-collared v-neck dobok[all coloured belts wear this type of dobok].

Our poom holders wear the half-black half-red [top black bottom red]-collared v-neck dobok, with the half-black half-red[top black bottom red] belt. Belt embroidery colours are usually gold, although I've seen other colours.

Our dan holders wear the black-collared v-neck dobok with a black belt. Belt embroidery colours again are usually gold.

Our doboks are standardized in such a way that they are all v-neck, with SINGAPORE TAEKWONDO FEDERATION printed on the back, and a patch with the STF logo stitched on the left upper arm. Only these 3 types [one type, 3 colours of collars] are recognized by the STF. Doboks not meeting the requirement of the STF will not be allowed to be worn to competitions.


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2009)

bgirl-kr said:


> I took my 1st dan grading at the age of 12 so i cant really remember all of the details.
> But i travelled for 3 and a half hour to reach a TAGB grading hall. We warmed up for an hour and then 6 students were called into a hall by themselves were they were instructed on line work to do (a series of movements selcted for us) in front of a panel of 5 official tae Kwon Do masters. We were then tested on out pattern work, we had to perform the pattern for our grade, a pattern of their choice and then a pattern of our choice.
> I was then taken individually into another room where there were 4 other masters and asked theory questions. they consisted of meaning of patterns, translations of moves, the background of the art meanings of colours and many others. in all i think i was asked about 9 questions.
> 
> ...


 

Welcome Katie, you should go to the meet and greet section and do a formal introduction.


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