# who has incorporated grappling



## Makalakumu (Nov 11, 2003)

Who has incorporated grappling into their TSD practice?  Why?  What?

I know that with ho sin shul, stand up grappling is traditionally done, but there are also many other places in our forms where applications show grappling.  I think that martial artists had a revelation when the first few UFC matches were fought and there is something to be learned from one on one combat when it comes to grappling.  

As far as the applications themselves, I teach falling, throws, joint locks, escapes from grabs and ground positions and actual groundwork, although that is pretty darn hard to find as applications in our forms.  

upnorthkyosa


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## karatekid1975 (Nov 14, 2003)

You sure we don't attend the same school??? Just kiddin. 

My school is TSD based (sort of). But yea, my instructor teaches grappling. We learn everything from break falls, throws to grappling (standing and ground). Plus all the kicks, blocks, forms, ect.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 14, 2003)

In my opinion, the applications for grappling are in our art, they are not emphasized though.  In many cases they are hidden.  I will tell you though, many of the Old Masters up here, they know how to grapple and can handle themselves quite nicely on the ground.  Where did they learn it?  From their old teachers because the USED to teach it!

upnorthkyosa


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## Seigi (Nov 14, 2003)

We have incorporated grappling, throws/Takedowns & locks into our system, though very little of it is practiced on a regulatr basis. We are no where near the abilities of someone who trains in grappling arts on a regular basis, but we don't have a basic working knowledge. Which i feel is better than none.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 14, 2003)

I think it is important for a striker to have at least a basic working knowledge of grappling and vice versa.  Most people really don't have time to become good at both, but as far as being a well rounded martial artist, it is important.  

As far as applications of grappling.  Does anyone else see the throw tai-o-toshi in bassai?  Right at the end.  How about other applications for grappling?  Care to share?

upnorthkyosa


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## Yossarian75 (Dec 9, 2003)

"How about other applications for grappling? Care to share?"


Ive got some, heres one from my favourite Hyung, Naihanchi cho dan.

Right near the start when you perform the right hand open back hand strike(just before the the first elbow)

Some one has grabbed your right wrist(with thier left hand), step in towards them with your right leg(you should be side on to your oponent) at the same time bring your right hand into the preparitory position for the back hand (hand comes up and rests near left side of your chest, with your elbow at a right angle) ,you should use your elbow to push into his. 

this should turn the attackers wrist and loosen his grip, it will also turn them so their other arm is out of reach. Using your left hand, grab the attackers wrist(the one youvejust turned and brought to your chest) and pull it back to the hip, putting pressure on thier elbow. At the same time strike out and hit the attacker with the back of your hand/fore arm. the side of thier neck and jaw will be right in place for this strike.

You could also use the backhand motion to grab your attackers hair/ear and whip thier head back. 

Next place your right hand behind attackers head(making sure he doesnt move) and pull the head in as you deliver an elbow strike to the side of the jaw/neck.

Then grad thier hair with your left hand and pull their head down and to your left( the low block) and follow up with a punch to the back of the head/ neck.

I hope you can understand the above as im sure you know this kind of thing is hard to put into words. .


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## Makalakumu (Dec 9, 2003)

I love that form.  There is so much grappling in it.


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## Zepp (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yossarian75 _
> *Ive got some, heres one from my favourite Hyung, Naihanchi cho dan.
> *



Just to clarify, that is a form that is done entirely in horse stance isn't it?  I believe we call that one Chul gi 1.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 9, 2003)

It is done in horse stance, but most of the applications are at 45 degrees from center.


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## Zepp (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *It is done in horse stance, but most of the applications are at 45 degrees from center. *



Yup, same form.  Thanks.


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm not clear on how much grappling is traditionally contained in TSD itself?


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## Makalakumu (Dec 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I'm not clear on how much grappling is traditionally contained in TSD itself? *



Buried in the forms and many of our basics are techniques in japanese are called tuite.  Standing grappling and throwing.  

Bassai hyung, for an example, contains a dramatic application for taiotoshi.

Ha Dan Soo Do Mahkee is ogoshi with very minor changes.  Bunkai.

Chil Sung Ee Lo has an application for tominage in its latter half.

Joint locks are buried everywhere and leg sweeps are prevelant.  Actual ground work is lacking though.  I have added that to the curriculum I teach only to give my students a rudimentary knowledge of the subject.


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## dosandojang (Apr 7, 2004)

Bassai Sho or Bassai Dai has a Taiotoshi in it? Where?

 And I am 4th Dan in Yudo and Hap Ki Do, so I DO have grappling in my style....


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## Makalakumu (Apr 8, 2004)

dosandojang said:
			
		

> Bassai Sho or Bassai Dai has a Taiotoshi in it? Where?
> 
> And I am 4th Dan in Yudo and Hap Ki Do, so I DO have grappling in my style....



The body drop throw is shown in the latter half of bassai.  When the knee touches the grounds and the hand flows over the shoulder so that it looks like a backfist to the ground.  This is where bassai shows tai o tosho.  I wish there was a better way to describe technique on this forum.


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## dosandojang (Apr 8, 2004)

After the double punch with the left hand on top, and right Before the last three knife hands?


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