# World black Belt Bureau



## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

Is any one here a member of the World Black Belt Bureau.  I have seen this add in themagazines for yrs. I know a guy who told everybody how rigorous their standards are, but I know this guy couldn't tie his belt.  I have also seen them in an expose on how easy it is to get a certificate from an organization like this.  My opinion is it is just another papermill.  Has anybody had any experiences with them.


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## GouRonin (Jan 14, 2002)

Weren't they the people who gave the honourary black belt to that guy in NY who has a chimpanzee?


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## GouRonin (Jan 14, 2002)

It was the chimpanzee they gave the black belt to.


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

I have it on video tape where they sent a certificate to a reporters dog.  I thought it was in TKD that a chimpanzee earned Black belt in Australia back in the late 80s.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2002)

What I want to know is:

Why are we not allowed to hunt these people down and 'discuss' the error of their ways?  Why do we have to let these genetic defects bastardize what we all work so hard doing?  What's worse is that the damn fool media gets a hold of this information and makes it exponentially worse!  

_"Someday a real rain will come and wipe this scum off the streets."_

I certainly hope so.

Cthulhu
grumpy


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

The chimpanzee thing was actually used to promote TKD as a user frindly martial art.  Anyone can do TKD, if we can train a chimpanzee to do it, then we can train you too.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2002)

Grrrrr...

We've trained chimps to fly in space, but I don't see anyone giving one a damn aerospace degree.

Urge to kill...rising...

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

I wil temper my comment to have no disrespect what so ever.  The organization that did this needs to be put out of business.  Since they exploded onto the scene in the 80's I have not seen anyone do as much damage to ligimate martial arts as they have.

And what kind organization allows you to kick to the head but not punch it.  Yeah thats smart!


As for the World Black Belt Bureau, these guys are a major paper mill.  If you have the money you get the certificate.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2002)

Is this the same group in question:

World Black Belt Bureau? 

If so, I've come up with a cunning plan (no, my name is not Baldric...let's see how many people get _that_ reference ):

Let's all e-mail them as various animals, asking for black belt certification.  I claim sea otter.

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

No the World Black Belt Bureau is not the group that gave the Black Belt to a chimp, but a reporter sent in the name of his dog to them, and sent in the payment.  He got a certifiacte in a few weeks.

The organization that promoted the chimpanzee is also the same group that has promoted 4 yr olds to Black Belt.  Yes it is the WTF.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2002)

Okay, then...simple enough: we write to BOTH organizations as small animals requesting black belt certification.

Evil!

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

It is $40.00 for a lifetime membership to the WBBB, regularily $75.00.  maybe I'll apply as Mr. Fu Fu.  I posted a link to them in my opening post.

As for the other organization it wold be a lot more money, not worth the fancy toilet paper they sent back, after attending classes, where you can kick but not punch.  Don't worry about blocking the chest protector will stop you from getting hurt.


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

I have just read in their ad in the magazines:  Director Kang Rhee  Instructor of Elvis Presley & Bill Wallace.  Wasn't Kang Rhee who gave Elvis an honorary rank for attendingone of his functions.


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## arnisador (Feb 1, 2002)

It seems as if every martial arts related search I do on Yahoo! returns a "sponsored link" for an organization that is willing to sell me a black belt at the level I feel I deserve. I wish that this was seen as being as clearly fraudulent as the academic diploma mills.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *It seems as if every martial arts related search I do on Yahoo! returns a "sponsored link" for an organization that is willing to sell me a black belt at the level I feel I deserve. I wish that this was seen as being as clearly fraudulent as the academic diploma mills. *



The bane and boon of capitalism:  anything can be bought.  *Anything*.

Cthulhu


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 16, 2002)

hummmmm that place is based near memphis thats about 3 hours from me.... hummmm wonder if i should pay them a visit and see how good they really are.... i wish i could around to all these guys selling black belts over the net and in magazines id love to stomp the hell out of all of them but alas im limited my little area lol anyone near nashville tn wanna take a field trip to memphis with me lol


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## TheArtofDave (Nov 30, 2007)

I have a life time membership to the World Black Belt Bureau I believe and I'm about 30 minutes from Memphis. Based on my early experience, and trying to get back into the arts I'm interested in I'd be a blue belt, but naturally any place you go especially when it concerns cross training you may be able to wear your previous rank but play catch up in the current rank you're in.

I've run into a few instructors who allow you to do this, but also some just want you to wear the white and progress up the scale naturally which either appeals to me as long as you're learning what you need to learn. Sadly where I'm at there are just a few schools here in which I could actually go to and anything I'm really, really interested in is way too far for me to drive.

My favorite art has always been Kenpo but no school here teaches it, and I'd have to move in order to learn it which right now is not an option for me.

I have to find other ways to cross train. I was taking Pasaryu which was a blend of kung fu,tkd,and karate as I understood it but as it was explained to me it was a Korean art.

To be honest from my year or so with it its a nice little gritty art, but with the shady dealings of WBBB, it makes me wonder if maybe I should cross train and practice perfecting the art I lean towards with my brother so we both get something out of it, and can be legitimately certified. Sure its nice to be ranked with a place and give reference to, but ultimately if you have the knowledge but the place who certifies you makes you look bad then its better to put your knowledge to the test, and get ceritified by an organization who people look highly upon.

So what happened with my experience in Pasaryu you may ask? After finding something I truly enjoyed (again), my car broke down and after getting a busted radiator fixed, I did go back, and with the promise of two years I'd be at a black belt but could wear a blue belt til I caught up. It wasn't meant to be I still have my gi in my closet with the World Black Bureau patch on the right side of it.

That must have been a sign that it was not meant to be because shortly after I was going regularly the school suddenly shut down, and is now just an empty space which I've been noticing a lot here lately except for Jimmy Blanns which has been around forever. I could further my boxing training, and shotokan, or kickboxing. 

So maybe the realibility of the WBBB was called into question and so ends my experience with the art. & the WBBB even though I apparently am a life time member.

Happy I found something regarding them because I value my work towards completing something I'm interested in, and even with the little experience I have I'm not willing to settle. Thanks for pointing this out. I'd much rather be certified by worth their weight instead of anybody who can just get ranked for the sake of being ranked.


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## ackks10 (Mar 9, 2008)

i know this guy, who went  to WBBB and  got a black belt from them (no question asked)  :toilclaw: and on his web site he has them listed, i called them and they told me to send them a copy of my cert. and $$$ and they would send me a rank,, IN WHAT:BSmeter:  any way check his site out www.njkenpo.com


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## ackks10 (Mar 9, 2008)

oh yes one more thing, he saids that he is with *Larry Tatum but look at his patch its Parkers, btw i spoke to **Larry Tatum and this guy is not with him.
*


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 9, 2008)

Like many organizations of this sort the money means more than the cert. Print up a cert on you comp with some made up organization name on it and claim whatever rank you want and I bet you get a cert back from them saying they recognize your rank (that is if you sent enough money)


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## ackks10 (Mar 9, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> Like many organizations of this sort the money means more than the cert. Print up a cert on you comp with some made up organization name on it and claim whatever rank you want and I vet you get a cert back from them saying they recognize your rank (that is if you sent enough money)





should be a law:enfo:


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> should be a law:enfo:


 
Yep.....


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## kidswarrior (Mar 9, 2008)

Yes, more laws, more bureaucracy, more conformity. Kinda like how the NCAA, IOC, NFL, MLB, etc. have preserved the purity of the practices within their purview.


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## aiokma (Sep 5, 2008)

im a member of the world black Belt Bureau. So what!

I have traveled to Memphis to preform for grand Master Rhee my self. he is a kool man. humble and very philosophical. 


look if you lie on your membership card and mail him a fake cert. thats on you.  if you bring you dog in there and want to get a black belt cert for him. be stupid and pay the fee. id take your money to. give fido a black belt.  when you left id call all my friends and laugh at you for your black belt dog. id spend your money on shoes. look hes just helping guys out that don't have a master get rank. look a black belt is only the beginning. you people try to say its the end all. 



i up for my 5th dan master i had to wait till i was 30. i have to be tested by my master or by master kang his self.  its not like you walk in the door and go hi. im Sam id like a  100th deg black belt with trim. and the lady goes please pay and 10 min latter your walking out with a black belt. 

now i can walk in there and say i have a student and here is there name and address. Id get one for that guy. because master Rhee is trustful. I would never disrespect his art or my own by falsifying information.  

this is not a paper mill. you have different levels of black belts "A" black belt is like xma. "B" is like Average and a "C" is not that flashy. but all can defend them self from a attacker. i see "c" black belts in the best schools around. A black belt is something in your heart not around your wast.

I had a Master i enrolled in the Black belt bureau. he came here and must have read the post and was very skeptical about joining. He sent in a false name and   got back he needed to supply the bureau with a cert.  and she wanted the name of his master. he was convinced and i enrolled him.

a honorey black belt is just that its not a real black belt at all. it only works in that gym or dojo or dojang. I rather a guy have black belt form some where then their printer.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 5, 2008)

If you are happy with the organization . good stay with it.

If you feel the ranks are just good stay there and be happy

I am happy that you feel you belong to a good organization and believe in the head of it

Many people just have trouble with organizations that say "send your money for this rank" test or no test. Heck I have never seen anyone not pass on of the tests given but such organizations.  For those that do not like such organizations stay away from them

See it is really simple in the end


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## aiokma (May 19, 2015)

Its that Ive Found out you can have the most exstive martial arts org. and people still look like babys doing martial arts and you can train in a cave in china and look like a pro with no paper to back it.  I do have have a kukkiwon Rank.  Your paper that says your rank does not define you - 


 your art Does. With that said the way you move, you train that makes you.  Ive seen people with High ranks that cant teach and ive seen people with no rank teach.  I chosse to back the WBBB cause I can't stand politics.


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## Buka (May 20, 2015)

Seven years between posts. That's gotta' be some kind of record!


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## Dirty Dog (May 20, 2015)

It's the Zombie Apocalypse!


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## hoshin1600 (May 21, 2015)

One fact that everyone overlooked was that the monkey was really good. I hear he has his own school now.  Besides his great great grandfather had a Kung-fu style named in his honor. So martial arts runs in the family. I also heard his students are good too. The zebras have one heck of a side kick.


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## Buka (May 21, 2015)

Zebra side kick.......I'm picturing a striped gi. Awesome!


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 2, 2018)

Rob_Broad said:


> Is any one here a member of the World Black Belt Bureau.  I have seen this add in themagazines for yrs. I know a guy who told everybody how rigorous their standards are, but I know this guy couldn't tie his belt.  I have also seen them in an expose on how easy it is to get a certificate from an organization like this.  My opinion is it is just another papermill.  Has anybody had any experiences with them.


I am a member of the World Black Belt Bureau. Im going to tell you why and why I register my Black Belt students with WBBB as well. I know  a lot of school owners that when that pass away or close down the students do not have any record of their rank outside of the cert they show you. WBBB is nothing more than a record keeper. Now you can say haha they black belted a monkey, dog or even a dragon. It only maters to the school name and rec being accounted for.
In other words i do not share black belt status with any other style in WBBB outside of my school. This is a nice way for people to look someone up to see if their Master BB them instead of the countless liers people run across often claiming they are a BB.

Also if you question the skills and level about my rank and my students I have over 100 videos on youtube as well as a Black Belt test. I dont like tournament but my students do and are ranked number one. We also did a mock tv show a few years ago for Japanese tv and you can see that on youtube as well.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 2, 2018)

We are members of WBBB and here is a video from a black belt test


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 2, 2018)

Im a member of WBBB. If you know another better record keeper of all styles of Martial Arts please share with us that info and I will also look into them as well.


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## wab25 (Mar 2, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> I am a member of the World Black Belt Bureau. Im going to tell you why and why I register my Black Belt students with WBBB as well. I know a lot of school owners that when that pass away or close down the students do not have any record of their rank outside of the cert they show you. WBBB is nothing more than a record keeper.


Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks of my rank?

I watched both of your videos that you posted here. I can tell one thing right away. None of the people in the videos have trained Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. If any of them came to my school, they would start as white belts. I'll give a concrete example of why. The falls demonstrated are not Danzan Ryu falls. This matters, because Danzan Ryu throws require uke to take the correct fall, so that uke does not get hurt. There are details to our falls that match up with details in our throws. Now the throw will work just fine... I would just need to find another uke.

Now, let me turn this around. If I posted video of myself doing Danzan Ryu, you would learn very quickly, that I have no training in your art. (I think the sign on the window in your video said Karate) If I came to your school, what good would it do me to strap on my black belt and demand that every start "Siring" me? Not only can I probably not do your white belt katas... I don't even know what they are. If I wore a black belt, but had no clue about your art, might I get hurt trying to participate with the black belts?

In my gi bag, I carry my black belt and a white belt. In my school, I wear the black belt. If I go to an AJJF event, I will also wear my black belt. If I go to another Danzan Ryu organizations event, I hold both white and black in my hand, let them know my rank in the AJJF and ask which they prefer I wear. When I go to any other art, put the white belt on. I let them know I have been training a number of years in Danzan Ryu, but want to be treated like any other white belt.

My belt, my rank, really only mean things in my school and my organization. So, my school records and my organization records are all that should matter. If I am teaching Danzan Ryu, who cares what the kukkiwon thinks of my rank? If I were to teach TDK who cares what the AJJF says about my rank?


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 2, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> I know a lot of school owners that when that pass away or close down the students do not have any record of their rank outside of the cert they show you.


and as such if the school does not have a legit parent organization, then those students if they continue in another art will revert back to a white belt in some other style.




ScorpionShawn said:


> This is a nice way for people to look someone up to see if their Master BB them instead of the countless liers people run across often claiming they are a BB.



yeah maybe, except that your making an assumption that it has some kind of authoritative power, which it doesnt.   if John is a black belt because Sally gave it to him,  no one cares because we dont know John and we dont know sally.  its a non valued currency.  if i print up some Hoshin dollar bills, no one will accept them because there is no accepted value. without the authoritative power of a governing body and an accepted value by the general populace, there is no value.

if John gets his black belt from Sally that is backed by the American Uechi-Ryu Organization that has ties to every other uechi -ryu organization world wide, then there is an accepted value by hundreds or thousands of other practitioners who do the exact same style and who can validate that person based on their proficiency.


now to register yourself and your students in a black belt Bureau,  could be construed as a lie.  it is a deception or passing the bureau off as having an authoritative governing body that acts as valuation giving power when in fact it has no power as such.
the registry is only recording the fact that Sally gave John a black belt.   BUT WE ALREADY KNEW THAT, because John said so.  does the record tell us who gave sally the authority to pass out black belts?  does the bureau tell us if the "Take Muh Do"  style is any good or worth studying ?  maybe Sally sucks as a martial artist and shouldnt be giving out rank to begin with.   so you see there is no governing body or collective group that can give credence and value to sally or John.
the bureau is a deception to create an illusion of giving credence and value.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2018)

Thread started in 2002 and revived every few years, in the running for the oldest thread still going I imagine.

I miss very much some of the posters on this thread that sadly no longer post, ah those were the days.


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## Buka (Mar 2, 2018)

Hi ScorpionShawn, welcome to MartialTalk, bro. Hope you enjoy it here.

Nice vids, thanks for sharing them. I enjoyed them.


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## JR 137 (Mar 2, 2018)

A gentleman I just met is in a situation that’s related to this thread...

There was a local independent school that just closed due to the CI having Parkinson’s Disease and is no longer physically able to run the school.  She had no affiliation with any group beyond the professional connections she’s made over the past 30+ years.  She taught Shotokan karate.  

There’s quite a few of her senior black belts who get together and work out, but none of them can make the commitment to carry on the school.

If she registered her black belts, what would that do?  Absolutely nothing IMO.  It doesn’t make them black belts anywhere else but the now defunct school.  If they go to a new school, what rank they start as depends on the CI.  The new CI May honor their previous rank.  The new CI might let them wear their old belt until he/she can fully asses where they belong in the new school.  The new CI might tell them they start at white belt and have to earn every promotion like every other new student. It doesn’t matter if their rank is accessible online, proven through a phone call, certificate, belt, nor any other means.  It’s solely the CI’s discretion.

My CI has had people inquire about training under him from other organizations and arts.  He’s had people claim dan ranking in other arts insist on wearing their own belt.  One was a guy who somehow thought his 3rd in judo should carry over to our karate school, and he should wear his 3rd dan belt and line up as a 3rd dan in our school.  My CI informed him that everyone from outside of our organization starts as a white belt, regardless of previous experience and rank.  People who have previous experience and/or who are above average athletes typically promote faster than the norm, but it’s an individual thing.  He’s not going to hold someone back if they’re worthy of promoting, yet he’s not going to promote someone early solely because they’ve had a higher rank elsewhere.

I was preparing to test for 2nd dan when I left my original dojo to go to grad school.  15 years later I found my current dojo.  My CI trainer under one of the heads of my previous organization.  When I initially met him he told me I couldn’t wear my old belt due to it being a different organization.  I chuckled and told him I didn’t want to wear it.  The curriculum between the two organizations is about 90% identical.  I’ve progressed significantly faster than the other who started around the same time I did, but I wasn’t handed anything because of my past.

To bring the second half of my post full circle, it wouldn’t matter if I was registered somewhere as a black belt.  I’m not a black belt in my current organization, so why should I wear one?  What credibility would ring registered as a black belt give me?  After about 20 minutes on the floor, my current CI had a good idea of where I was.  Probably a lot less than 20 minutes into it.


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## CB Jones (Mar 2, 2018)

@ScorpionShawn 

Welcome.

Just a suggestion, take a minute and introduce yourself in the meet and greet forum.

Hope you stick around.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 6, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks of my rank?
> 
> I watched both of your videos that you posted here. I can tell one thing right away. None of the people in the videos have trained Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. If any of them came to my school, they would start as white belts. I'll give a concrete example of why. The falls demonstrated are not Danzan Ryu falls. This matters, because Danzan Ryu throws require uke to take the correct fall, so that uke does not get hurt. There are details to our falls that match up with details in our throws. Now the throw will work just fine... I would just need to find another uke.
> 
> ...





wab25 said:


> Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks of my rank?
> 
> I watched both of your videos that you posted here. I can tell one thing right away. None of the people in the videos have trained Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. If any of them came to my school, they would start as white belts. I'll give a concrete example of why. The falls demonstrated are not Danzan Ryu falls. This matters, because Danzan Ryu throws require uke to take the correct fall, so that uke does not get hurt. There are details to our falls that match up with details in our throws. Now the throw will work just fine... I would just need to find another uke.
> 
> ...


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 6, 2018)

*Wow touched a nerve with some people on this post here lol. Ok Ill start with your reply...*

with your words "Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks" then why do you care about others or WBBB?

In fact why would anyone care to go as far as to tear something like this down when it truly means no harm to anyone unless you want people to buy into your organization?

Next question is...what is Danzan Ryu Jujitsu lol never heard of it but i will look it up might be something i would like to train myself. Also where in the hell did you see anything about my school teaching it?

Both TKD and Kenpo are polar opposite and most of the time both communities dont mix well or agree on much.

So that is why I use WBBB. The Kukkiwon and IKKA, Tracys or Speakman systems do not mix outside of their organization and it make sense why they don't i enjoy learning from all of these styles and love teaching them.

Hope using the WBBB doesn't bother you so much that you can only relate to the Tiger and not the Dragon with in you


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> Hi ScorpionShawn, welcome to MartialTalk, bro. Hope you enjoy it here.
> 
> Nice vids, thanks for sharing them. I enjoyed them.


Thank you sir I have over 100 videos on youtube. If you have any questions about then. I would love to answer asap


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> *Wow touched a nerve with some people on this post here lol. Ok Ill start with your reply...*
> 
> with your words "Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks" then why do you care about others or WBBB?
> 
> ...


I don’t have a dog in this race and in the end people can and will do what they want, and it doesn’t matter to me.

However, since this is the topic of discussion, I will weigh in with my opinion.

I feel that membership in such an organization actually does the opposite of what people may be trying to accomplish by becoming a member.  In my eyes, it undermines the legitimacy of their professed ranking.

There is no real quality control in place.  They recognize rank based on one’s word which may or may not be honest, and they do so for a fee while having taken no part in the hard work of training a student, which means they are simply looking to make a profit off the labor of others, while assuming an authority that they have no legitimate claim to.  A large part of their operation is based on the insecurities of folks who crave recognition, and they take advantage of those insecurities.  And they are an open door for people to inflate their rank at their whim, without any further training or justification.  

When it comes down to it, I hold these rankings in zero regard.  None.

The only ranking I would give any credence to is that given by one’s instructor, or given by the parent organization at the recommendation of one’s instructor.  All others, including “recognizing organizations” like this one, I utterly disregard.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2018)

Maybe it is because I am a TCMA (Traditional Chinese Martial Arts) person and we don't deal with belts, but my view of this is if that is what makes  you happy then register, it will likely make the org happy because they got more $$$.

 However, my feeling on getting a belt in one organization/style and then going to another organization/style and expecting to have that rank honored or not wanting to wear the white belt again is purely an ego issue. Maintaining a beginners mind is the best way to learn. Show up thinking you're a master then there is no learning possible...due to ones ego..


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## wab25 (Mar 7, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> *Wow touched a nerve with some people on this post here lol. Ok Ill start with your reply...*
> 
> with your words "Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks" then why do you care about others or WBBB?
> 
> In fact why would anyone care to go as far as to tear something like this down when it truly means no harm to anyone unless you want people to buy into your organization?


Sorry, but no nerves were touched. I am sorry you felt attacked by my post. I was not trying to tear you or anything else down. My apologies if you felt that way, it was not intended.

I was trying to give a perspective from a guy looking into your school... what would make me want to join? The only certificate I would want to see, is the one from your organization, in the art you are teaching. (and not for the reason you think, more on this below) What I am looking at is your technique as the instructor, is it good and effective? Is your students techniques good and effective? (if your students can't get it... I probably won't either... a good instructor should be able to get his students to progress with good technique as well) Then I am looking at how the class works. These are things that make me want to train with you or not. The number of certificates on your wall, the number of trophies in your window... don't mean anything to me or my decision to train with you. If you are teaching me Judo... I don't care what your TKD rank is. As a matter of fact, your Judo rank is not that important either... just that you are qualified to teach Judo. It more important that you can do the art and teach the art, than what color thingy you have around your waist.

Now, I did mention that I would want to see the certificate from the organization of the art you are teaching. Your organization saying you are a "15th degree Grandmaster Plus" is not going to override my thoughts if your teaching is bad and your technique is worse. But, seeing your certificate, from the correct organization, goes to your personal character. There is a guy in our organization that has a 5th dan rank. I have been on the mat with him, he is very good and teaches very well. However, when I looked up his website, at his school (which has both TKD and Danzan Ryu) he claims a higher rank, 6th dan and he claims the title of Professor. (no organization has given him that rank or title) In my view, that speaks to his character, and I would look elsewhere to train. If you can't be honest about who you are and what rank you have... why should I expect you to be honest anywhere else? Why should I now trust you? In short, the only reason to see a certificate for the art being taught, for me... is a character check.

When I look at a school to train in, I look first at the instructor: can he do the art? can he teach the art? Then I look at the students: are they learning the art? Then I look at the class format: Would I enjoy that format? If all those pan out... then I do a quick character check on the instructor, is he honest about who and what he is and what he is teaching me? The rest of the certificates and trophies and photos.... don't mean anything to me.

If you want to join the WBBB or any other Black Belt Hall of Fame type thing.... go for it. I am not looking at it anyway.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 7, 2018)

If the WBBB and the other organizations like it were openly acting merely as record keepers, then I don't imagine anyone would object to them _too_ much.

That's not to say they would be worthwhile. The records they keep would be completely unreliable given that anyone could register any rank they wanted for the right fee. If you did want a online repository for records of ranks you've awarded, you could create your own website for that purpose which would cost less than the price of one WBBB certificate. But hey, spend your money as you like.

I did just glance through their website, and they seem to be offering more than just record keeping services. They offer rank certifications, thus implicitly backing a claimed rank with their own credibility, such as it is. They offer letters ""Granting the Instructor Authority to Register and Promote Students as well as Other Martial Artists of Other Styles/Schools". I'm having a hard time imagining how such "authority" could be in any way meaningful.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 7, 2018)

@ *Flying Crane your words: When it comes down to it I hold these rankings in zero regard. None." *
Ok so i guess its silly to even bother to take the topic past that, Unless your just trolling for what ever reason.
*
@ Xue Sheng your words: getting a belt in one organization/style and then going to another organization/style and expecting to have that rank honored.*
I agree 100% that it should not hold any weight in other styles or even in the same style but under a different school. I don't think that's what they are trying to do with WBBB at all. I don't even think ITF and WTF honor each other. Nor does Kenpo Karate Jeff Speakmen, Tracys or Larry Tatum and all of them trained under the same Master Ed Parker. 

*@ wab25 your words: The only certificate I would want to see, is the one from your organization, in the art you are teaching.*
I agree 100% with a lot of stuff you brought up. In fact when I started TKD I looked all over town at ever school out there. In the end I went with the one that had the best looking BB and was attracted to the idea of the Kukkiwon. Then when I started Kenpo I trained with the head of the Sheriff Swat team for 10 years in my town. So I wouldn't just train with anyone. Now onto how you cert in my school. I have my own certs that says you completed everything up to BB standards as reviewed be me and others who out rank me in the systems I teach  having the WBBB is just a little something extra I do for my students in the event i pass away or records are lost. 

*In closing here. 
 I was like everyone else a skeptic about the WBBB at first. Then I **realized** how **using** them as a record keeper outside of my dojo for my students could be a great **benefit**. I was also **aware** of this topic before I did go with them and I did anyway. I know there will always be people out there pointing fingers at ever **organization ie the Kukkiwon.*
*I understand what WBBB is attended for and I approve. If someone doesn't want to train at my school because I use WBBB... ok so what. Find another school bro you wont be missed lol*
*Lastly do you know another organization that keeps record of all systems? *
*If so Ill look into them.*


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 7, 2018)




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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2018)

You had me here.....and I was agreeing



ScorpionShawn said:


> *@ Xue Sheng your words: getting a belt in one organization/style and then going to another organization/style and expecting to have that rank honored.*
> I agree 100% that it should not hold any weight in other styles or even in the same style but under a different school. I don't think that's what they are trying to do with WBBB at all. I don't even think ITF and WTF honor each other. Nor does Kenpo Karate Jeff Speakmen, Tracys or Larry Tatum and all of them trained under the same Master Ed Parker.*.*



but you lost me here....



ScorpionShawn said:


> View attachment 21311



I have read through this discussion and I do not think anyone was being trollish. They may not have agreed, they may have had a differing opinion than you but I do not think anyone was being a troll or casting aspersions on your school or telling you to stop using WBBB....People do not always agree and if you put something out there, a video for example, expect it to be critiqued... if you can't handle disagreement or critique...don't put it out there.....


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## JR 137 (Mar 7, 2018)

@ScorpionShawn other than googling someone to verify black belt status, what’s the point?  I’m just really struggling to figure out why.  It’s one thing if that registered rank is recognized by a significant number of people if the student were to train elsewhere for whatever reason, but that just doesn’t seem to be the case.

Wouldn’t you posting the names and ranks of students on your own website do the same thing?  Wouldn’t it actually skip a step if a CI from another school wanted to verify a prospective student’s rank AND the credentials and/or legitimacy of the person granting that rank?  I’ve seen a few dojos that post active black belts names and ranks, along with former members’ names and ranks.  If you’ve got a website already, why not do this instead and skip the middleman?

Just trying to make sense of it, nothing more.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> @ScorpionShawn other than googling someone to verify black belt status, what’s the point?  I’m just really struggling to figure out why.  It’s one thing if that registered rank is recognized by a significant number of people if the student were to train elsewhere for whatever reason, but that just doesn’t seem to be the case.
> 
> Wouldn’t you posting the names and ranks of students on your own website do the same thing?  Wouldn’t it actually skip a step if a CI from another school wanted to verify a prospective student’s rank AND the credentials and/or legitimacy of the person granting that rank?  I’ve seen a few dojos that post active black belts names and ranks, along with former members’ names and ranks.  If you’ve got a website already, why not do this instead and skip the middleman?
> 
> Just trying to make sense of it, nothing more.


Agreed.

Here's my take. I'm an independent program, no longer affiliated with any organization (two in my primary art have invited me). I actually prefer that. That being the case, though, ranks I confer mean little outside my school. With instructors in my primary art who actually know me, those ranks might mean something (though not what they mean at my school). I would expect other instructors within NGA to simply start my students over at white belt, because they couldn't be sure what my ranks mean compared to their own.

So, what good would it do to have them registered somewhere, even if that somewhere was some sort of highly recognized record-keeper? All that would do is certify that someone actually got that rank from me. You know, that rank that doesn't really translate to anywhere else.


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## Michele123 (Mar 7, 2018)

I can think of one instance where a record keeping might be useful. In Hollywood. You have someone claiming martial arts credentials in a movie. You want to know if he really holds those ranks. Having a legitimate and reliable record source might be useful in that scenario. 

I can’t see any other place it would be useful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 7, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I can think of one instance where a record keeping might be useful. In Hollywood. You have someone claiming martial arts credentials in a movie. You want to know if he really holds those ranks. Having a legitimate and reliable record source might be useful in that scenario.
> 
> I can’t see any other place it would be useful.



That IS the issue. Legitimacy. When you're talking about some place that will register any rank for anyone, for a fee, their claim to legitimacy is.... suspect.
Why waste time training, when all you need to do is write a check and *poof*, you're a 27th Dan Great Grand Master Soke?


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2018)

Posting in red is not eye friendly.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Here's my take. I'm an independent program, no longer affiliated with any organization (two in my primary art have invited me). I actually prefer that. That being the case, though, ranks I confer mean little outside my school. With instructors in my primary art who actually know me, those ranks might mean something (though not what they mean at my school). I would expect other instructors within NGA to simply start my students over at white belt, because they couldn't be sure what my ranks mean compared to their own.
> 
> So, what good would it do to have them registered somewhere, even if that somewhere was some sort of highly recognized record-keeper? All that would do is certify that someone actually got that rank from me. You know, that rank that doesn't really translate to anywhere else.


No one says that i know of that anyone in any other school has to honor a black belt from WBBB. In fact I also train in Haidong Gumdo... as a white belt!


Dirty Dog said:


> That IS the issue. Legitimacy. When you're talking about some place that will register any rank for anyone, for a fee, their claim to legitimacy is.... suspect.
> Why waste time training, when all you need to do is write a check and *poof*, you're a 27th Dan Great Grand Master Soke?


People can say that about all Organizations... I respect the WTF but some people dont.


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> That IS the issue. Legitimacy. When you're talking about some place that will register any rank for anyone, for a fee, their claim to legitimacy is.... suspect.
> Why waste time training, when all you need to do is write a check and *poof*, you're a 27th Dan Great Grand Master Soke?





ScorpionShawn said:


> People can say that about all Organizations... I respect the WTF but some people dont.



Well, people can say it about other organisations, but it wouldn't be the same.

To use your particular example - WT (hasn't been WTF for a while) doesn't issue rank, it's a sports body.

That video, I'm not even going to start...

A KKW black belt rank isn't something I can register for by making a payment, but apparently I can get a confirmation certificate from the WBBB.

A KKW dan dank isn't recognised as anything in any other art (reputedly there's a reciprocal recognition agreement 'twixt KKW and some ITF for competition purposes). Exactly as a 'karate' or 'kung fu' rank isn't recognised by the ITF.

I can't see the point myself - but if you can, for you, great - crack on.

Doesn't by itself legitimise your rank to me though.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

ROFL I keep hearing people say "I dont recognized your wbbb rank" ok... so then why care?
Also I still dont understand why anyone still thinks that any organization should be honored anywhere outside of itself? and if that is true... again if your not into the WBBB why care?


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

I appear to care less than you do - you joined specifically to drag up a thread that everyone else forgot about 3 years in an attempt to defend the 'organisation', and haven't contributed to any other discussion...

So, here we go, here's why I think it's a pointless endeavour:

The WBBB as far as I can see isn't an art, or a training programme, it's essentially a database that you can pay to be listed on.

As you've agreed yourself, any rank isn't recognised outside of it's own art.

Each system has it's own record keeping system, you can make enquiries, confirm details - so what purpose does WBBB serve?

If/when I get a dan rank from the ITF, it's recognised in the ITF and essentially nowhere else. If that organisation disappears, I no longer have a rank so there's no need to verify it - so what purpose does WBBB serve?

I could start my own system, issue black belts. Someone could phone/email me to verify I issued that rank. If I give up and take the system with me that rank means nothing - or I could pass it to one of my senior students and you can check with them - so what purpose does WBBB serve?


Given all that, and all you've said, and all everyone else has said - the only purpose I see it serving is getting an extra certificate to frame.

If you need that to validate yourself to yourself, fine.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

People spending so much time to say... what purpose does* WBBB* serve? Then I answer it omg like how many times now? 
Just seems like trolling to me. 
forgot to use red text in the last reply  enjoy


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## Michele123 (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> People spending so much time to say... what purpose does* WBBB* serve? Then I answer it omg like how many times now?
> Just seems like trolling to me.
> forgot to use red text in the last reply  enjoy



You have repeatedly said it’s for record keeping. People keep asking what the point of record keeping is. Especially when you started out by saying it was for if your school disappeared. So folks here pointed out that if your school disappeared, the rank would be worthless because no other school accepts outside ranks. Then you kept harping on the record keeping aspect and the folks here pointed out that if a school still exists, the records are still accessible without the WBBB. So yes, you’ve answered several times that it is for record keeping. But people want here want to know what the point of that record keeping is?  If the school that issued the black belt still exists, the records still exist at that schools, this no need for outside record keeping. If the school that issued the black belt no longer exists, yes the records are probably gone but so is the value of that black belt. It doesn’t matter anymore. So, if you can explain WHY having records after a school goes defunct matter, than maybe the conversation can move on. 

I tried to suggest one place that I thought basic, external, record keeping could be helpful (but that would only work if the record keeping place had extensive checks to verify all ranks before adding them to the record, which many here have explained WBBB doesn’t do).  But even that is kind of a superfluous use. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> People spending so much time to say... what purpose does* WBBB* serve? Then I answer it omg like how many times now?
> Just seems like trolling to me.
> forgot to use red text in the last reply  enjoy





Michele123 said:


> You have repeatedly said it’s for record keeping. People keep asking what the point of record keeping is. Especially when you started out by saying it was for if your school disappeared. So folks here pointed out that if your school disappeared, the rank would be worthless because no other school accepts outside ranks. Then you kept harping on the record keeping aspect and the folks here pointed out that if a school still exists, the records are still accessible without the WBBB. So yes, you’ve answered several times that it is for record keeping. But people want here want to know what the point of that record keeping is?  If the school that issued the black belt still exists, the records still exist at that schools, this no need for outside record keeping. If the school that issued the black belt no longer exists, yes the records are probably gone but so is the value of that black belt. It doesn’t matter anymore. So, if you can explain WHY having records after a school goes defunct matter, than maybe the conversation can move on.
> 
> I tried to suggest one place that I thought basic, external, record keeping could be helpful (but that would only work if the record keeping place had extensive checks to verify all ranks before adding them to the record, which many here have explained WBBB doesn’t do).  But even that is kind of a superfluous use.
> 
> ...


*Yawn* ok if something happens and I lose all rec of my black belts then its nice to know there is another source keeping rec of it... 
Is this ok with you or do you need something else to make that clear?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> People can say that about all Organizations... I respect the WTF but some people dont.



Oh my. So much wrongness.

Let's start with the fact that it hasn't been the WTF for quite some time.
Then let's finish with the obvious fact that you're talking apples and oranges. WT is not a martial arts style. They have no curriculum. They award no rank. They have no schools. They're a sport governing group. That's all.

Legitimate organizations do not issue Dan ranks to anyone who simply writes a check. It's really that simple.
Does that mean that every person who writes them a check is a clown? No. Not at all. But it does mean there is a good chance that martial artists will be skeptical of that rank.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

If you start a origination that does extensive checks to verify all ranks before adding them to the record. Ill join that to rofl


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Oh my. So much wrongness.
> 
> Let's start with the fact that it hasn't been the WTF for quite some time.
> Then let's finish with the obvious fact that you're talking apples and oranges. WT is not a martial arts style. They have no curriculum. They award no rank. They have no schools. They're a sport governing group. That's all.
> ...


I agree


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> *Yawn* ok if something happens and I lose all rec of my black belts then its nice to know there is another source keeping rec of it...
> Is this ok with you or do you need something else to make that clear?



As a backup system, it has a (slight, debatable) purpose.

But I could set up a secure and robust backup storage solution for you, for about £300/year, for unlimited records. Of course it would mean nothing to anyone else, but your current records don't either.

If it was that sort of thing, fine - it could help in cases such as if a 'federation' or 'association' disbanded and some senior people wanted to reform it.

Something else it could do (if it was certified and authorised by the various systems) is act as a central point of reference. To do that, it would have to get all it's details through official channels (not a random applicant).

But, I can't see that's actually what it is - it has no authority or credibility as it stands to verify or certificate rankings.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Pointing out that WBBB rec system means nothing to you is something you keep going back to and thats trolling


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> If you start a origination that does extensive checks to verify all ranks before adding them to the record. Ill join that to rofl



There are bunches of them. I hold rank from several of them.
But you can't just join. That's a large part of why they ARE legitimate organizations. If you could just write a check and get a certificate, they'd be... I dunno... the WBBB? Or Ashida Kim?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

*  Do you need me to say it again why I still use WBBB? *


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> View attachment 21319*  Do you need me to say it again why I still use WBBB? *



So you can troll?


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## Michele123 (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Pointing out that WBBB rec system means nothing to you is something you keep going back to and thats trolling



Hmm. That’s a new one to me. I never realized that sharing a dissenting opinion expressed clearly and respectfully was trolling. I always thought trolling involved insults and taunts. 

ETA: for example, the two posts directly above mine. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> But I could set up a secure and robust backup storage solution for you, for about £300/year, for unlimited records. Of course it would mean nothing to anyone else, but your current records don't either.



I pay $5 a month for a cloud server. I use it primarily to access my home computers (which are behind a router/firewall), but with 25GB of storage (and unlimited available...) I could put an awfully large rank database on it, as well as the web server to access it. If you don't want a whole server, the same company will give you 250GB of storage for $5 a month. That ought to be enough to record the rank of, say, every martial artist in the US...


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

The same question keeps getting asked and the answer never changes... What do you call that?
Also I love and respect the *WTF* and the *Kukkiwon* but I can pull up videos of people that are *WTF* black belts and cant even kick above the waste. Does that mean *WTF* is crap?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I pay $5 a month for a cloud server. I use it primarily to access my home computers (which are behind a router/firewall), but with 25GB of storage (and unlimited available...) I could put an awfully large rank database on it, as well as the web server to access it. If you don't want a whole server, the same company will give you 250GB of storage for $5 a month. That ought to be enough to record the rank of, say, every martial artist in the US...


Thats cool I can do that as well but I still like having WBBB as another rec keeper and I respect Master Kang Rhee.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> The same question keeps getting asked and the answer never changes... What do you call that?
> Also I love and respect the *WTF* and the *Kukkiwon* but I can pull up videos of people that are *WTF* black belts and cant even kick above the waste. Does that mean *WTF* is crap?



No, you can't. Because there is no such thing as a WTF black belt.
There's no longer any such thing as the WTF, for that matter.
How high is the "waste", by the way? Does that mean  being able to throw a kick above a trash can? What size trash can? 
Nobody is saying anything about any art, except you. What has been said is that some orgs (like, say, the WBBB) lack legitimacy because of their "if you can afford it, we will award it" policy.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, you can't. Because there is no such thing as a WTF black belt.
> There's no longer any such thing as the WTF, for that matter.
> How high is the "waste", by the way? Does that mean  being able to throw a kick above a trash can? What size trash can?
> Nobody is saying anything about any art, except you. What has been said is that some orgs (like, say, the WBBB) lack legitimacy because of their "if you can afford it, we will award it" policy.


I was using it as a reference as a organization. Are you saying the the Kukkiwon does not cert people anymore as black belt?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> I was using it as a reference as a organization. Are you saying the the Kukkiwon does not cert people anymore as black belt?



Are you under the misapprehension that the Kukkiwon and WT are the same thing? 
For that matter, I don't have the flexibility that I did 40 years ago. Do you think I should stop teaching and give up my rank just because I got old?
Or are you just trying to change the subject, which was the legitimacy of places that award rank on the basis of a check cashing?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Are you under the misapprehension that the Kukkiwon and WT are the same thing?
> For that matter, I don't have the flexibility that I did 40 years ago. Do you think I should stop teaching and give up my rank just because I got old?
> Or are you just trying to change the subject, which was the legitimacy of places that award rank on the basis of a check cashing?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Kukkiwon is the World Taekwondo Headquarters founded in 1972 in Seoul, South Korea. It is a hub for learning and research. It is also the home of the World Taekwondo Academy where instructional seminars are held.

The Academy also trains and certifies Taekwondo Instructors from around the world through it regularly held leadership courses. In 1998, the Academy held its first instructor training seminar for Foreigner instructors which included only 20 Americans. This is a very prestigious certification.

It is the organization that issues dan rank and guidelines on belt promotion and certification including required poomse, breaking and sparring (kyorugi) techniques.

Additionally, it is the only taekwondo organization whose dan ranks are recognized by World Taekwondo Federation (WTF).


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> *Yawn* ok if something happens and I lose all rec of my black belts then its nice to know there is another source keeping rec of it...
> Is this ok with you or do you need something else to make that clear?


If you want to pay  (and have your students pay) inflated prices for a superfluous records keeper, then that's up to you and I don't imagine anyone (other than maybe your students) would object.

The initial complaints in this thread weren't about your choices in records keeping. They're about the fact that the WBBB doesn't just claim to be a records keeper. It purports to be a body which grants recognition, promotions, and even authority to promote others. That's a whole different ball game.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

How do you teach a spinning hook kick if you cant get your leg up past your own belt?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you want to pay  (and have your students pay) inflated prices for a superfluous records keeper, then that's up to you and I don't imagine anyone (other than maybe your students) would object.
> 
> The initial complaints in this thread weren't about your choices in records keeping. They're about the fact that the WBBB doesn't just claim to be a records keeper. It purports to be a body which grants recognition, promotions, and even authority to promote others. That's a whole different ball game.


Who's to say that can not recognition, promotions, and even authority to promote others?


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I pay $5 a month for a cloud server. I use it primarily to access my home computers (which are behind a router/firewall), but with 25GB of storage (and unlimited available...) I could put an awfully large rank database on it, as well as the web server to access it. If you don't want a whole server, the same company will give you 250GB of storage for $5 a month. That ought to be enough to record the rank of, say, every martial artist in the US...



Yeah, but I'll email you a certificate 

(Subject to signing up to a 5 year storage agreement, payment in advance, service can be withdrawn at any time for any reason, no refunds)


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Kukkiwon is the World Taekwondo Headquarters founded in 1972 in Seoul, South Korea. It is a hub for learning and research. It is also the home of the World Taekwondo Academy where instructional seminars are held.
> 
> The Academy also trains and certifies Taekwondo Instructors from around the world through it regularly held leadership courses. In 1998, the Academy held its first instructor training seminar for Foreigner instructors which included only 20 Americans. This is a very prestigious certification.
> 
> ...



Not true. WT also recognizes ITF rank. Of course, that's only for competition, and has nothing whatsoever to do with any of the silly things you've said.
So I guess the answer you're avoiding giving, is that you're trying to change the subject away from certificate mills.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Ok now is the question who are you and what have you done that is worth it? Because here is Master Kangs..

Instructor of Elvis Presley & Bill "Superfoot" Wallace
Frontier of American karate with Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris
BA in Business Administration from Yon Sae University, Seoul, Korea 1960
Established and served as captain of Yon Sae University Martial Arts Team
Head instructor for the Korean military intelligence (special forces) group officers 1958 to 60
Fifth Dan, Korean TaeKwonDo Assn., Seoul, Korea 1962
Trained in Kong Soo Do, Chang Mu Kwan, Kwon Bup, Kang Duk Won and Han Kuk Hap Ki Do 1953 to 1965 
Established PaSaRyu Mu Do Assn. in Memphis, TN 1966
Seventh Dan Kuk Ki Won (World TKD Headquarters) 1975
Producer of Annual Charity fund raiser for St. Jude Children's Hospital, Memphis, TN 1970 to present
City of Memphis Mayor - Certificates of Appreciation for various community services 1982 and 1989
Member of President's Advisory Council on Democratic and Peaceful Unification of Republic of Korea since 1991


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Ok now is the question who are you and what have you done that is worth it? Because here is Master Kangs.



I'm a Dan holder from several organizations that require more than a cashed check to award rank. That's who I am.

Who are you?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm a Dan holder from several organizations that require more than a cashed check to award rank. That's who I am.
> 
> Who are you?


BTW that was not towards you it was towards pdg thats trying to sell me a service. Also if you want to know who I am I have over 100 videos ans i have posted before but here you go again...


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm a Dan holder from several organizations that require more than a cashed check to award rank. That's who I am.



I think you'll agree with this:

None of that gives you any legitimacy to award/confirm/validate rank in any (other) art, nor issue certification.


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> How do you teach a spinning hook kick if you cant get your leg up past your own belt?



By making it a low section hook?

Or by teaching it by any means other than example?

You don't have to be able to perform a certain move to know how it's supposed to be performed and correct others...


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I think you'll agree with this:
> 
> None of that gives you any legitimacy to award/confirm/validate rank in any (other) art, nor issue certification.



Oh, I agree. The moment I did so, I'd lose most (if not all) of whatever credibility and legitimacy I have.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I think you'll agree with this:
> 
> None of that gives you any legitimacy to award/confirm/validate rank in any (other) art, nor issue certification.


Ummm with the WBBB it does... if you dont want to train with me because of that lol again so what?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Oh, I agree. The moment I did so, I'd lose most (if not all) of whatever credibility and legitimacy I have.


You dont hold any legitimacy in a ton of schools that porb teach the same thing you teach bro


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> You dont hold any legitimacy in a ton of schools that porb teach the same thing you teach bro



Really? And exactly how did you reach this conclusion? Did you take a survey?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> By making it a low section hook?
> 
> Or by teaching it by any means other than example?
> 
> You don't have to be able to perform a certain move to know how it's supposed to be performed and correct others...


if there are 2 schools across the street from one another. One has a *WBBB* instructor teaching TKD he can preform all the kicks and has students that are ranked number one in the state using TKD and the other school has another teacher that can not do the kicks only tell you how its done. Yet has some rank from oh i dont know the *Kukkiwon.*
What school are you going to train at? For me Im going with the *WBBB* school.


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Who's to say that can not recognition, promotions, and even authority to promote others?


If you want everybody to read your posts please refrain from posting in red. I don't see why we should get eye strain because you want to emphasise something. Be thoughtful.


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Ok now is the question who are you and what have you done that is worth it? Because here is Master Kangs..
> 
> Instructor of Elvis Presley & Bill "Superfoot" Wallace
> Frontier of American karate with Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris
> ...




And?


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> if there are 2 schools across the street from one another. One has a *WBBB* instructor teaching TKD he can preform all the kicks and has students that are ranked number one in the state using TKD and the other school has another teacher that can not do the kicks only tell you how its done. Yet has some rank from oh i dont know the *Kukkiwon.*
> What school are you going to train at? For me Im going with the *WBBB* school.



If I want to compete in WT sanctioned events (like say, the olympics) and the WBBB holder doesn't have KKW rank or association, then I'll go with the other guy.


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> BTW that was not towards you it was towards pdg thats trying to sell me a service. Also if you want to know who I am I have over 100 videos ans i have posted before but here you go again...



I just noticed you'd directed this at me.

So, who am I?

I hold 7th dan in anglegrind-fu, 4th in alternator-ido and 2nd in migwel-do. I have over 2.000 videos online.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? And exactly how did you reach this conclusion? Did you take a survey?


What system do you teach? TKD


pdg said:


> If I want to compete in WT sanctioned events (like say, the olympics) and the WBBB holder doesn't have KKW rank or association, then I'll go with the other guy.


That makes sense... and I agree with that 100% but who ever said join WBBB to compete in the olympics?
No one that I know of. How ever if you want to learn a skill and one person can show how its done and the other can only tell you how its done? Does it even matter if they are WBBB or not?
"Your clothes are RED!"


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I just noticed you'd directed this at me.
> 
> So, who am I?
> 
> I hold 7th dan in anglegrind-fu, 4th in alternator-ido and 2nd in migwel-do. I have over 2.000 videos online.


Please share your best video of you doing Martial Arts so we can review and enjoy


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

In fact I think everyone here that is questioning any type of legitimacy about any martial arts organization. Should show video prof of themselves doing martial arts and Im not talking about a grainy video of kid from 40 years ago claiming its you. Otherwise you all could be really bad at martial arts and just looking to vent your anger towards others like WBBB.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2018)

How bout we all just step back and agree to disagree about the WBB.

@ScorpionShawn checkout the other threads (I suggest start with the active posts function), introduce yourself in meet and greet, and enjoy the discussions.

Typically, it’s a pretty friendly and accepting site.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Who's to say that can not recognition, promotions, and even authority to promote others?


Rank credentials, promotions and authority to issue such promotions are only meaningful when issued by someone who
a) has an appropriate level of expertise in the art for which the credentials are being granted and
b) has actual knowledge of the qualifications in that art of the person to whom the credentials are being granted.

The WBBB issues credentials in arts where Mr. Rhee has no qualifications to individuals about whom he knows nothing other than that their check cleared. He's free to do so, but others are free to express their opinions of such behavior.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Rank credentials, promotions and authority to issue such promotions are only meaningful when issued by someone who
> a) has an appropriate level of expertise in the art for which the credentials are being granted and
> b) has actual knowledge of the qualifications in that art of the person to whom the credentials are being granted.
> 
> The WBBB issues credentials in arts where Mr. Rhee has no qualifications to individuals about whom he knows nothing other than that their check cleared. He's free to do so, but others are free to express their opinions of such behavior.


CB Jones I agree and Im laughing over here because I will stand by WBBB all day long as long as i put vaule to it and my students do as well. Then case closed...

Tony there is vaule in my eyes to seeing other schools that use WBBB and have really good instructors and students. Yes sure there are some fakes out there that abuse what WBBB is trying to do by adding some unity to all systems. How ever all Im seeing here is a lot of hate towards it and that happens to anything that tries to unit instead of divide.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Master Kang Rhee.





ScorpionShawn said:


> Because here is Master Kangs..
> 
> Instructor of Elvis Presley & Bill "Superfoot" Wallace
> Frontier of American karate with Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris
> ...


If you, or anyone else, wants to train with Mr. Rhee, that's great. If he wants to promote any of his students to rank seems appropriate in his PaSaRyu system, that's great. If he wants to promote a PaSaRyu practitioner who is not his direct student, based on observing whatever appropriate test procedures are set out in that system, that's great.

If Mr. Rhee wants to award a rank in Ninjutsu or Aikido to someone he hasn't even met, that's going to strike a lot of people as rather shady.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Tony there is vaule in my eyes to seeing other schools that use WBBB and have really good instructors and students.


Sure, there's always value to seeing good schools, whether or not they use the WBBB.



ScorpionShawn said:


> Yes sure there are some fakes out there that abuse what WBBB is trying to do by adding some unity to all systems. How ever all Im seeing here is a lot of hate towards it and that happens to anything that tries to unit instead of divide.



Honest question here: how exactly is the WBBB adding or attempting to add unity to different systems? For that matter, what exactly does "unity" mean in this context?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

*ABOUT THE 
WORLD BLACK BELT BUREAU*

The World Black Belt Bureau (WBBB) is a full service organization dedicated to filling the needs of all martial artists.

Founded in 1972 by martial arts Master Kang H. Rhee, the World Black Belt Bureau provides certificates, pins, patches and other supplies, including manuals for instructors and individuals, in a cost efficient manner.

The WBBB enables martial artists to have their ranks recognized and recorded worldwide.

The World Black Belt Bureau is comprised of martial artists from all ranks, styles, systems and associations.

*It is required that members adhere to the basic martial arts philosophy of Honor, Dignity and Respect.*


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

Again if you yourself or others dont recognize BB from WBBB so what?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

I have a lot of respect for this man and will honor the WBBB by making sure my black belts look good and do effective techniques. Haters gonna hate and fakers going to fake. Sad people will abuse a honor system he has set in place to unite many different styles.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2018)

Like I said before, I don’t deal with belt ranks, I train Traditional CMA, and I have nothing against WBBB, frankly I don’t know enough about it to have much to say either way. But there is one point in their claim of recognition I question

*“The WBBB enables martial artists to have ranks recognized and recorded worldwide.”*​
I have my doubts that it would fly in Japan, not certain about Korea, likely not mean much in Taiwan, and I am certain it would mean nothing in China, and they are part of the world. Probably would not matter much in an MMA gym or Gracie school, or any CMA place that supports duan rankings. It would seem to me it would only enable martial artists to have ranks recognized in those school that are current members of the WBBB, much like any other martial arts organization.


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

I took the worldwide claim as you can be in Ireland open a school and say your part of WBBB and direct people to look it up. How ever it really doesn't mater what you teach what organization your part of to anyone outside of it as I have stated a few times in other post here before.


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## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2018)

My current teacher needs a hip replacement.  This will be #3 - both hips once, and now redoing one of them.  He can’t kick above his own waist; most kicks are about knee to mid thigh height.  Somehow, a lot of our students can kick quite high and quite gracefully.  Odd, huh?

When I was in my 20s, I used to care about how skilled my teacher was.  That teacher was the most talented MAist I’ve ever been around - fast, strong, and sharp.  During his Kyokushin days, he was the guy everyone watched out for.  What does that do for me as his student?  Entertain me.  Let me say “my teacher can beat up your teacher.”  Stuff like that.  It’s not like standing near him is going to transfer his skills by osmosis.

My former teacher was an excellent teacher too.  That’s what’s important.  My current teacher isn’t as good physically as my former teacher (the whole hips thing).   My current teacher is a better teacher than my former teacher.  He’s done a better job of breaking down my faults and giving me a realistic way of fixing them that suits me.  My former teach was good at that, my current teacher is great at it.

There’s a reason why Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson didn’t have very good coaching careers.  It certainly wasn’t because they weren’t talented enough.


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## pdg (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> I took the worldwide claim as you can be in Ireland open a school and say your part of WBBB and direct people to look it up. How ever it really doesn't mater what you teach what organization your part of to anyone outside of it as I have stated a few times in other post here before.



Ok, so a question.

How do I look up a WBBB member?


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 8, 2018)

I'm a little confused on all this record keeping stuff. Don't people issue paper Certificates anymore ?  I have paper certificates issued by the style organization, signed by the style head, the organization head and my teacher. All dated and stamped official.  If someone questioned me all I do is show them the certificate.  And many of my teachers are now dead but that paper is still with me. If someone still wants to question me I politely ask them to join a class and judge for themselves. Training on the floor should be more important that paper or record keeping anyway.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> *ABOUT THE
> WORLD BLACK BELT BUREAU*
> 
> The World Black Belt Bureau (WBBB) is a full service organization dedicated to filling the needs of all martial artists.
> ...


Certificates, pins, and patches?  For what?  Are they a design shop?  Can I email my personal design to them and get patches and pins made for me?  Can I request customized certificates for me exclusively to issue to my students?  Meaning: are they a print shop?

Manuals?  Of what kind?  Do they print/publish my own manuscript for me, or are they selling their own manuals to me?  If the latter, why would I want them? I do not train in whatever it is that their guy does.  Do they want me to do whatever it might be that they do?

Could you clarify these points?


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## ScorpionShawn (Mar 8, 2018)

its really about tell the trolls on here to post a video of them doing martial arts before they speak on it and then you get this message. haha now i know the true intent of these post thats why so much hate.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> View attachment 21321



WTH.

Dude, chill out a little.  Not everything has to be a battle.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> its really about tell the trolls on here to post a video of them doing martial arts before they speak on it and then you get this message. haha now i know the true intent of these post thats why so much hate.


Sigh.

Ok toughguy.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> its really about tell the trolls on here to post a video of them doing martial arts before they speak on it and then you get this message. haha now i know the true intent of these post thats why so much hate.



You are reading an awful lot into these posts that is not there.....and making rather large assumptions.....getting overly defensive and, IMO, over reacting..... alrighty then..... you have a nice day


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 9, 2018)

I'm starting to think this whole thing is nothing more than click bait for his Youtube channel.  I ain't clicking.


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## pdg (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> its really about tell the trolls on here to post a video of them doing martial arts before they speak on it and then you get this message. haha now i know the true intent of these post thats why so much hate.



It's nothing whatsoever to do with that actually.

You're taking this very personally (and personally on behalf of WBBB as well).

Whether you're good or not has no reflection on WBBB in the slightest - nor does whether I'm any good or not.

Likewise, buying a certificate from them doesn't make you or me any better.

The belt (or certificate) does not make the person.

From what I can gather from digging on the website, WBBB isn't a system - I think that's been established.

So, this is the part that bothers me most:



			
				world black belt bureau website said:
			
		

> WBBB Certified Instructor benefits include (with Additional $125):
> 
> 
> A Personalized World Black Belt Bureau independent school instructor certificate.
> *Granting you*, as the instructor, the *authority* to register and promote students under the World Black Belt Bureau.



What gives them the right to grant authority to anyone to be an instructor or run a school? They're suggesting they can override other system's governing bodies?

As I understand it, the usual way of things is to rise through the ranks until you're at a point deemed by the controlling body of a system where you are an instructor. You get assessed/graded by authorised representatives of said system (who have been through the same procedure).

WBBB, no. You get instructor authority purely by paying an extra fee. There is no assessment, no inspection, no quality control.

To go back to your earlier example - a WBBB instructor who can do a high kick vs. a KKW instructor who can't. Well...

The KKW instructor will have been through the system, they'll have to have proven knowledge.

The WBBB instructor - all I know is that they can write a cheque and kick high.


I'm probably repeating myself here, but doing a technique doesn't mean you can teach a technique. You might naturally turn your hips and supporting leg correctly to do a high technique, but if you can't spot someone else not doing that and correct them they're likely to blow a joint.

That's the instructor's fault - all the pins, patches and certificates in the world won't help.


It's also on the website that the WBBB was founded in 1972 - that's 46 years.

Looking at the online active member listing (additional 19$ for an entry, no other way to verify membership as an outsider) there are 127 listed members. Of those, 114 are in the US.

The Facebook page has 56 likes.

For a *worldwide organisation with a 46 year history*, that's pretty poor.


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## pdg (Mar 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I'm starting to think this whole thing is nothing more than click bait for his Youtube channel.  I ain't clicking.



Would you click to see a poor quality video of me freehand sharpening a broken drill bit with an angle grinder though?


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## Tez3 (Mar 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> Would you click to see a poor quality video of me freehand sharpening a broken drill bit with an angle grinder though?




Oooo I love it when you talk dirty!


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## pdg (Mar 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Oooo I love it when you talk dirty!



Really?

The usual response is more like "stop doing that, you're really putting me off"


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> Would you click to see a poor quality video of me freehand sharpening a broken drill bit with an angle grinder though?


depends on if you lose a finger.


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## pdg (Mar 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> depends on if you lose a finger.



No, all digits remain intact.

7th dan, remember?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2018)

I’d say we’ve all given this thread far more attention than it deserves.


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## pdg (Mar 9, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I’d say we’ve all given this thread far more attention than it deserves.



Can I see your certificate that shows you're authorised to think that thought and say that statement?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> Can I see your certificate that shows you're authorised to think that thought and say that statement?


The records have been lost.   I should have signed up.  Tragedy.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> Ok, so a question.
> 
> How do I look up a WBBB member?





pdg said:


> Looking at the online active member listing (additional 19$ for an entry, no other way to verify membership as an outsider) there are 127 listed members. Of those, 114 are in the US.



So the point of the business is to keep records of your rank in case your original school vanishes, but you have to pay extra to be listed publicly so that you could actually access that record if necessary? Okay ...


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> No one says that i know of that anyone in any other school has to honor a black belt from WBBB. In fact I also train in Haidong Gumdo... as a white belt!


My point wasn't about anyone having to honor a BB. My point was that record-keeping for BB from an independent school seems meaningless to me (as someone who runs an independent school). It matters in an association, because other schools in the association typically expect to be able to honor it (and may even be expected to), so they want to be able to verify it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> forgot to use red text in the last reply  enjoy


And you claim others are trolling??


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> As a backup system, it has a (slight, debatable) purpose.
> 
> But I could set up a secure and robust backup storage solution for you, for about £300/year, for unlimited records. Of course it would mean nothing to anyone else, but your current records don't either.
> 
> ...


I think we could get that down to pretty much $0. A record of promotions is just a list. Store it in a reasonably secure (I don't think we need to worry about international hackers stealing it) cloud space. Put a copy in another. Email a copy to a senior student occasionally.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> How do you teach a spinning hook kick if you cant get your leg up past your own belt?


I taught kicks while I was rehabbing from knee surgery, and couldn't kick, at all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Ok now is the question who are you and what have you done that is worth it? Because here is Master Kangs..
> 
> Instructor of Elvis Presley & Bill "Superfoot" Wallace
> Frontier of American karate with Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris
> ...


And what has any of that to do with the way the WBBB gives out certificates?


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## pdg (Mar 9, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> So the point of the business is to keep records of your rank in case your original school vanishes, but you have to pay extra to be listed publicly so that you could actually access that record if necessary? Okay ...



Well, that's what has been put forward, but...

I just noticed something.

Guess what you get as a 'certified instructor'



			
				wbbb site said:
			
		

> LETTER of Recommendation and Congratulations *Granting the Instructor Authority* to Register and *Promote Students* as well as *Other Martial Artists of Other Styles/Schools*



Read into that what you will...


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## pdg (Mar 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think we could get that down to pretty much $0.



But then I won't make any money!!!


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> if there are 2 schools across the street from one another. One has a *WBBB* instructor teaching TKD he can preform all the kicks and has students that are ranked number one in the state using TKD and the other school has another teacher that can not do the kicks only tell you how its done. Yet has some rank from oh i dont know the *Kukkiwon.*
> What school are you going to train at? For me Im going with the *WBBB* school.


I'm going to go with the one with the better instructor. The WBBB is at best a non-issue. If they stress it, it becomes an issue.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Please share your best video of you doing Martial Arts so we can review and enjoy


Why go all _ad hominem_ in a discussion about a specific organization and its practices?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> In fact I think everyone here that is questioning any type of legitimacy about any martial arts organization. Should show video prof of themselves doing martial arts and Im not talking about a grainy video of kid from 40 years ago claiming its you. Otherwise you all could be really bad at martial arts and just looking to vent your anger towards others like WBBB.


WBBB isn't a MA organization. It's a database company that hands out certificates in exchange for a fee.


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## wab25 (Mar 9, 2018)

I just found this on there site (bold added by me):

World Black Belt Bureau - Services



> WBBB Certified Instructors Receive:
> 
> 
> Opportunity for FREE DAN TESTING and AUTOMATIC DAN PROMOTION and Opportunity to become a WBBB AMBASSADOR
> ...


That might be another reason for joining and having your students join...


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2018)

ScorpionShawn said:


> Again if you yourself or others dont recognize BB from WBBB so what?


Somehow, you seem to have decided that anyone not seeing value in what WBBB does (or not liking their practice) is a judgment of or attack upon you. It is neither.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, that's what has been put forward, but...
> 
> I just noticed something.
> 
> ...


Yeah and guess what?  I can do that already.  For everybody who is willing to accept it from me.  And you can read into THAT what you will...


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