# New student in my Dojo



## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

Hello,

I'm asking this question to all the Shidoshi and Shihan that have a long experience in teaching.

In my Dojo there's a new student who studied with another Shidoshi for some years. He claims to be 1st kyu but he doesn't have any basic. He is not able to perform Kihon Happo, Sanshin No Kata and Ukemi. His movements are like a beginner, he doesn't have balance and often he hits hard my other students because he is not able to perform what I teach.
This could be his Ex Shidoshi fault who didn't teach him ANYTHING or his fault whom during all this years didn't study what his Ex Shidoshi taught him.

Now... from my point of view he should start again from the beginning but he asked me about the black belt many times and I'm sure that he will not accept my decision.

His ex teacher is a Shihan and he gave him the 1st kyu.. Do I HAVE TO accept his rank even if his real rank is not more that 9th kyu??

My 8th kyu students are asking me how it's possible that a 1st kyu doesn't know Kihon Happo and Sanshin no Kata!

I will accept any suggestion to solve my problem...

Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad english.

Francesco
Italy


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## newtothe dark (Feb 23, 2008)

I would say if you are the one testing him your standards appy.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2008)

I'm from karate, if a student came in claiming a rank and could do everything that was expected of that rank to an acceptable standard I would accept him at that rank. If, like your student he doesn't know what he should for that rank, he must learn and test again to your satisfaction.It's not fair on your other students who have worked hard for their rank. 
Test him at 1st kyu and when it's clear to him that he doesn't know what he's doing he should accept the rank you give him, if he doesn't and leaves I think there will be no loss to you!

By the way your English is excellent, better than many English speakers! Where in Italy are yu? I went to Naples a couple of years ago as one of our MMA fighters was in a competition there, the fighters were good but the drivers on the streets were very scary!! We were looked after very well by the Italians, very nice people!


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## Carol (Feb 23, 2008)

If you don't honor his rank, then you will have one student that is not happy.  The unhappy student is the one not performing to your standards.

If you do honor his rank, then you are likely to have many unhappy students.  Worse, the unhappy students are the ones that performing to your standards.


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

I am the one who test him. 
The problem is that last week I tested him for the 9th and 8th kyu and he wasn't able to pass the test! I think it's useless to test him for 1st kyu don't you think?
I asked him simple things that usually I teach to beginners who train for the first time and he didn't know it... You should have seen my other student's faces! :erg:
I think will will talk to him clearly about his rank... I can't accept it.

I'm happy you enjoyed your italian trip.
I'm located in the centre of Italy, do you know Firenze (Florence) ?
Naples is a wonderful city but the drivers are crazy!  They are famous all over Italy...


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2008)

Simple anybody can claim anything, but a real student that has been studying can proform simple task if not they start over.


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> If you don't honor his rank, then you will have one student that is not happy.  The unhappy student is the one not performing to your standards.
> 
> If you do honor his rank, then you are likely to have many unhappy students.  Worse, the unhappy students are the ones that performing to your standards.



That's it...
My students work hard to improove their skills also outside the Dojo and I'm sure that they will not accept such a decision.
I will definitively confirm his real rank...


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Simple anybody can claim anything, but a real student that has been studying can proform simple task if not they start over.



He could really be the rank he claims... I know that many students of this Shihan got high ranks without knowing anything.
I think that people should not accept high ranks if they don't deserve it.


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## terryl965 (Feb 23, 2008)

Mizu said:


> He could really be the rank he claims... I know that many students of this Shihan got high ranks without knowing anything.
> I think that people should not accept high ranks if they don't deserve it.


 
I agree your school your rules plan and simple.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 23, 2008)

In your Training Hall it is your standards that do apply!


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I agree your school your rules plan and simple.



That's a basic rule I think.


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In your Training Hall it is your standards that do apply!



I think this problem is not about Dojo standards.
I have never seen a 1st kyu that doesn't know what Shako Ken is..... just to make an example...
We are talking about a person near the Shodan who doesn't know beginner's techniques.
I teach Kihon Happo and Sanshin No Kata everyday, to everyone.... 10th kyu and Nidan. That's my Dojo standards....

Francesco
Italy


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## Cryozombie (Feb 23, 2008)

Ask to see his rank certs from Japan.  If he cannot produce them make him start over... or leave him at 1st kyu, but make him stay first kyu until his taijutsu is up to your standards as a first kyu.

Just my suggestion.


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## Carol (Feb 23, 2008)

A compromise situation could be to start the student at the beginning, but to be prepared to promote him at a faster pace than you have your other students if (and only if) he shows that he has the aptitude.   This respects the past training of the individual while still maintaining the value of the education that you give in your dojo.  It also give you as the instructor the chance to see what he does know and what he doesn't know in more detail.

The 1st kyu may not think that is enough.  If his dissatisfaction is to the point where he starts to create a disruption in the class, you may have to consider not having him train at your school.


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## jks9199 (Feb 23, 2008)

Mizu said:


> He could really be the rank he claims... I know that many students of this Shihan got high ranks without knowing anything.
> I think that people should not accept high ranks if they don't deserve it.


There's a problem with that thinking...  If you don't know you aren't ready or capable, you don't know that you don't deserve the rank.

Is rank important in your dojo?  He should realize by now that he doesn't know what your students do; he may be willing to accept holding his rank, and training up to it.


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Ask to see his rank certs from Japan.  If he cannot produce them make him start over... or leave him at 1st kyu, but make him stay first kyu until his taijutsu is up to your standards as a first kyu.
> 
> Just my suggestion.



I already know that he doesn't have the rank cert from Japan.. there's no need to ask. 
I think I will keep teaching him what he really need, without giving him the only thing he wants from me... the Shodan. I will see what happen.


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> There's a problem with that thinking...  If you don't know you aren't ready or capable, you don't know that you don't deserve the rank.
> 
> Is rank important in your dojo?  He should realize by now that he doesn't know what your students do; he may be willing to accept holding his rank, and training up to it.



The rank is not so important in my Dojo. 
We are together just to train and improove. We are all friends and higher ranks always help lower ranks. The rank is just a number but it help the organizazion of a Dojo. 
I think (not only me) that his is training with me just because he wants the Shodan.


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> A compromise situation could be to start the student at the beginning, but to be prepared to promote him at a faster pace than you have your other students if (and only if) he shows that he has the aptitude.   This respects the past training of the individual while still maintaining the value of the education that you give in your dojo.  It also give you as the instructor the chance to see what he does know and what he doesn't know in more detail.
> 
> The 1st kyu may not think that is enough.  If his dissatisfaction is to the point where he starts to create a disruption in the class, you may have to consider not having him train at your school.



He is in my Dojo since last September. I tried to teach him but it seems he doesn't want to learn! He didn't improove in anything in the last 6 months!

As I already said, I think he's training with me just to get the Shodan. 

People in the Dojo don't respect him a lot because when I teach something he never train in it with his training partner. He just want to show his skills hitting hard and not letting the other person train correctly.


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## morph4me (Feb 23, 2008)

Keep training him and expecting him to live up to your standards, he'll either learn from you or leave, either way you haven't compromised your standards or reputation.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 23, 2008)

Mizu said:


> I already know that he doesn't have the rank cert from Japan.. there's no need to ask.
> I think I will keep teaching him what he really need, without giving him the only thing he wants from me... the Shodan. I will see what happen.


 
That's a good solution.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (Feb 23, 2008)

Sounds to me like everyone's input is excellent. As for me I would just have to let him know that in my dojo I expect certain kyu ranks to know certain parts of the kihon happo and sanshin no kata. And if he doesn't have rank from Japan then technically he's still mukyu until he pays for his annual membership AND his sensei sends in for his rank like everyone else. Eventually in the long run if he is serious about his training then he'll continue training if not then you just weeded out someone who otherwise wasn't truly serious about learning Bujinkan.


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## LuzRD (Feb 23, 2008)

is there any chance that this student is confused and reversed 1st and 9th kyu? thinking that 1st kyu is the lower rank??
...not likely, however worth a shot.i
if not, i believe (correct me if im wrong) it is up to you (his teacher) to decide when he is ready/if you should advance him early to motivate him (not my first choice if the student thinks they are ready for advancement)/rank him where you feel he belongs... etc


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## Fiendlover (Feb 23, 2008)

Mizu said:


> That's a basic rule I think.


 

i agree.  when i own my own dojo im going to be as strict as hell.  if u can't do something then try and try and try until u do.  until he proves himself to be the rank he claims then start him at um was it 9th kyu?  (im in karate we do white belt to black)


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## jks9199 (Feb 23, 2008)

LuzRD said:


> is there any chance that this student is confused and reversed 1st and 9th kyu? thinking that 1st kyu is the lower rank??
> ...not likely, however worth a shot.i
> if not, i believe (correct me if im wrong) it is up to you (his teacher) to decide when he is ready/if you should advance him early to motivate him (not my first choice if the student thinks they are ready for advancement)/rank him where you feel he belongs... etc



I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but if he's pushing to test for black belt... he knows where he thinks he is.

This highlights one headache in many styles where there aren't a lot of formal criteria for promotion system-wide.  You get people being promoted to a certain level by one teacher who would never meet the criteria in another class...  Which can get frustrating for teachers when students move.


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## Mizu (Feb 23, 2008)

First I would like to thank everyone for the precious suggestions and help... I really appreciated it.

What I can say is that this person is just looking for an easy Shodan.
It's not possible that after 6 months of training with me he hasn't got anything about my teachings. 
You should see him training and you would understand.
We use to start our classes with some warm up... usually 45 minutes of running, stretching, push ups, jumps, ukemi and so on... After 10 minutes he is done and he sit down untill the warm up is ended.
When I teach something, he get a training partner (everyone try NOT to train with him) and he perform completely different things than I shown. My students always come to saying that they can't train correctly with him. He try to show them his own techniques without following my teachings.

One night I was ill and I couldn't go to the Dojo. I called one of my studets and told him to make some warm up and train in the basics they know.
This 1st kyu arrived at the Dojo and pretended to teach to my students just because he is an higher rank. They said that I gave them istructions to train in Kihon Happo and you know what? He answered... Kihon Happo? Ok tonight i don't train... I go home.

I'm writing all this to make you understand that this problem doesn't depend from the Dojo standards differences. I got many guests in my Dojo from other countries... from 8th kyu to Shodan but their levels were great.
This person doesn't want to learn, doen't want to improove... he just want the black belt!

Anyways... I decided to keep teaching him what he really need and if he will get tired he will leave... better for me.

After 5 years of teaching, 2 active Dojos and 35 students, this is the first time I have problems with one of my(?) students.

Thanks again for all your answers and sorry if I annoyed you all.


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## paulee (Feb 23, 2008)

I recently re-entered the martial arts after a multi-year layoff.  I was extended the opportunity to claim my previous rank, but I chose to start at the begining.  Within the first few weeks, I had people asking me if I had previous training, telling me "You don't move like a beginer."  This guy can claim whatever he wants to, but if he walks like a beginer, talks like a beginer, well .... he isn't worthy of the rank he claims.  Tell him so.  If all he wants from you is the shodan, he'll move on, having contributed nothing to your dojo.  If he is serious about the art, he will humble himself, and add to your dojo.


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## Tez3 (Feb 24, 2008)

_


Mizu said:



			First I would like to thank everyone for the precious suggestions and help... I really appreciated it.

What I can say is that this person is just looking for an easy Shodan.
It's not possible that after 6 months of training with me he hasn't got anything about my teachings. 
You should see him training and you would understand.
We use to start our classes with some warm up... usually 45 minutes of running, stretching, push ups, jumps, ukemi and so on... After 10 minutes he is done and he sit down untill the warm up is ended.
When I teach something, he get a training partner (everyone try NOT to train with him) and he perform completely different things than I shown. My students always come to saying that they can't train correctly with him. He try to show them his own techniques without following my teachings.

One night I was ill and I couldn't go to the Dojo. I called one of my studets and told him to make some warm up and train in the basics they know.
This 1st kyu arrived at the Dojo and pretended to teach to my students just because he is an higher rank. They said that I gave them istructions to train in Kihon Happo and you know what? He answered... Kihon Happo? Ok tonight i don't train... I go home.

I'm writing all this to make you understand that this problem doesn't depend from the Dojo standards differences. I got many guests in my Dojo from other countries... from 8th kyu to Shodan but their levels were great.
This person doesn't want to learn, doen't want to improove... he just want the black belt!

Anyways... I decided to keep teaching him what he really need and if he will get tired he will leave... better for me.

After 5 years of teaching, 2 active Dojos and 35 students, this is the first time I have problems with one of my(?) students.

Thanks again for all your answers and *sorry if I annoyed you all.[/*quote
		
Click to expand...

_


Mizu said:


> ]
> 
> You haven't annoyed anyone at all! it's a good discussion and it's always valuable to hear peoples views even if the subject doesn't concern us at the time. It's good to learn from other peoples experiences, it helps when the situation happens to us. Thank you for posting this and please...keep posting!


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## fireman00 (Feb 24, 2008)

Your school - your rules.  If he hasn't mastered the basics and does not meet your critia for promotion then he doesn't get a black belt.  If he can't accept that fact then his previous teacher failed him twice.


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## Shicomm (Feb 24, 2008)

From my personal experience i've noticed that things work a bit "odd" in Italy but that's a different discussion.

The behaviour of the student seems "disturbing" so proper action could be taken, no issues regarding rank there  
On the other hand ; when there is actual testing going on for new ranks it could attrack rank chasers.

As you said he's just asking about his possibilities to get to a new rank, seems clear to me ...  
It would be nice to ask such person why he/she is in training, no need for 'stupid talk' there but it would be nice to get to their point of view.
You can learn from everyone!


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## jks9199 (Feb 24, 2008)

Mizu said:


> First I would like to thank everyone for the precious suggestions and help... I really appreciated it.
> 
> hat after 6 months of training with me he hasn't got anything about my teachings.  What I can say is that this person is just looking for an easy Shodan.
> It's not possible that after 6 months of training with me he hasn't got anything about my teachings.



Sure it is.  He's not choosing to learn from you.  



> You should see him training and you would understand.
> We use to start our classes with some warm up... usually 45 minutes of running, stretching, push ups, jumps, ukemi and so on... After 10 minutes he is done and he sit down untill the warm up is ended.
> * When I teach something, he get a training partner (everyone try NOT to train with him) and he perform completely different things than I shown. My students always come to saying that they can't train correctly with him. He try to show them his own techniques without following my teachings.*


At this point, I have a simple question.  Why are you still even trying?  Sometimes, someone is just too much of a disruption, and this guy seems to be one of _them_.  He's refusing to learn what you're teaching, he's not working properly with his partners, and he's doing his own thing instead of the lesson you're teaching.  He doesn't want to be there.


> One night I was ill and I couldn't go to the Dojo. I called one of my studets and told him to make some warm up and train in the basics they know.
> This 1st kyu arrived at the Dojo and pretended to teach to my students just because he is an higher rank. They said that I gave them istructions to train in Kihon Happo and you know what? He answered... Kihon Happo? Ok tonight i don't train... I go home.


See, he doesn't want to be there.  And he tried to derail the class when you weren't there.  It speaks well for your students that they didn't let him.


> I'm writing all this to make you understand that this problem doesn't depend from the Dojo standards differences. I got many guests in my Dojo from other countries... from 8th kyu to Shodan but their levels were great.
> This person doesn't want to learn, doen't want to improove... he just want the black belt!
> 
> Anyways... I decided to keep teaching him what he really need and if he will get tired he will leave... better for me.
> ...




I respect your attitude and desire to teach this guy, but I'd say that you're wasting your time, your student's time, and his time.  You're not going to give him a black belt (and you shouldn't!) unless he meets your standard, and there's nothing to suggest that he'll ever choose to train to do so.

Maybe it's just the Bujinkan students here on MT, but it's my understanding that Kihon Happo is the key, base set of techniques in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.  If the guy won't learn and practice it... why try to work anything else with him?


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## Mizu (Feb 24, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> _
> 
> 
> Mizu said:
> ...


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## Mizu (Feb 24, 2008)

Shicomm said:


> From my personal experience i've noticed that things work a bit "odd" in Italy but that's a different discussion.
> 
> The behaviour of the student seems "disturbing" so proper action could be taken, no issues regarding rank there
> On the other hand ; when there is actual testing going on for new ranks it could attrack rank chasers.
> ...



I can't do much more than try to make him uderstand that he doesn't deserve and higher rank... teaching him what he really needs it's maybe the best way to get him "bored".

I'm not the owner of the Dojo and I'm not the one who get the money from the students so I can't tell him to stop attending my classes.

Maybe I know why he is training... He likes to be a MASTER, it's clear. 
He often attend other classes around Italy with Neo Ninja groups and when he goes there he wears the black belt.


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## Mizu (Feb 24, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Sure it is.  He's not choosing to learn from you.
> 
> 
> At this point, I have a simple question.  Why are you still even trying?  Sometimes, someone is just too much of a disruption, and this guy seems to be one of _them_.  He's refusing to learn what you're teaching, he's not working properly with his partners, and he's doing his own thing instead of the lesson you're teaching.  He doesn't want to be there.
> ...



That's right. 
He won't have anything from me except what he really needs!
I have never been one of those teacher who give out ranks so easily. 
I'm more than sure that he will get tired of my classes very soon...


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## Tez3 (Feb 24, 2008)

Mizu said:


> I can't do much more than try to make him uderstand that he doesn't deserve and higher rank... teaching him what he really needs it's maybe the best way to get him "bored".
> 
> I'm not the owner of the Dojo and I'm not the one who get the money from the students so I can't tell him to stop attending my classes.
> 
> ...


 
Oh dear! he's certainly asking for trouble isn't he! As people will treat him as a black belt he will get found out very quickly or if he goes to a club like mine .. a 'fighting club'  he will end up getting hurt when sparring as we'd expect him to be able to defend himself. It's always dangerous to pose as a higher belt than you are!


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## kosho (Feb 24, 2008)

I Would look at there stuff and if you feel that the person is not at that level then tell them. If that person is not willing to lisen and respect you and your Dojo and come into learn. Then have that person leave. You are the Boss.  Do not lower your own standers to please others. It will weaken your other students thoughts aboue you...  GOOD LUCK

 Kosho


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## morph4me (Feb 24, 2008)

I don't know what your testing protocols are, but might I suggest that you let him test for Shodan, and fail him when he can't meet your standards, then he will have to choose to either stay and learn or leave.


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## Mizu (Feb 24, 2008)

morph4me said:


> I don't know what your testing protocols are, but might I suggest that you let him test for Shodan, and fail him when he can't meet your standards, then he will have to choose to either stay and learn or leave.



What I did is test him for 8th kyu last week in front of the class and he didn't pass the test. Maybe I won't see him again!

I know this person will cause trouble in the future. When he is in the Dojo there's always a bad atmosphere because none want to train with him.

I was looking for a gentle way to make him understand that my Dojo is not the right place for him.

I tried for 6 months to help him improoving but nothing works with him...


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## jks9199 (Feb 24, 2008)

Mizu said:


> What I did is test him for 8th kyu last week in front of the class and he didn't pass the test. Maybe I won't see him again!
> 
> I know this person will cause trouble in the future. When he is in the Dojo there's always a bad atmosphere because none want to train with him.
> 
> ...


Some folks don't take hints.

He sounds like the type that you'd have to hit with a board to give him a hint.

I gotta stick with my opinion; as one of my favorite writers would say, offer him "an invitation to the world."  Send him on his way.  Or at least offer him a simple ultimatum; do things your way, or find someone who'll teach him the way he wants.


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## bljohnson (Dec 28, 2011)

You could leave him at his current rank until he is able to perform at your standards. You will be doing him a favor although I am sure he will not see it that way. To give some one rank that does not deserve it is basically hurting them. If he were to get in a serious conflict and had to use his taijutsu which stinks then he is in serious trouble. I also think he is very arrogant to ask to be tested that is not his call it is yours.


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## Indagator (Dec 29, 2011)

well either that or let him be a paper tiger, but ultimately i believe the road you are taking is the more charitable one for his sake based on what you've said.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 29, 2011)

bljohnson said:


> You could leave him at his current rank until he is able to perform at your standards. You will be doing him a favor although I am sure he will not see it that way. To give some one rank that does not deserve it is basically hurting them. If he were to get in a serious conflict and had to use his taijutsu which stinks then he is in serious trouble. I also think he is very arrogant to ask to be tested that is not his call it is yours.



bljohnson, I'm going to first off say welcome to the forum, and invite you to make your way over to the Meet and Greet section to let us know something about yourself!

Next, you might not be aware, but resurrecting old threads (referred to as "necro'ing") is generally considered poor form. I've noticed that in all your posts you've been replying to threads from 2-4 years ago, including this one. The last post was over 3 years ago, in fact, nearly four years ago, and as such the OP probably isn't still looking for replies or help anymore. If you have something that can add to the conversation, that's great, but in specific cases like this (where the responces are about a specific situation that was then present for the poster in question), there's little that can be added.

That said, I look forward to seeing your contributions in the rest of the forum.


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