# Where are Five Swords' five swords?



## MisterMike (Jan 26, 2004)

I think I've got them, but wanted to see what other people have found. I'll post mine after. TIA :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think I've got them, but wanted to see what other people have found. I'll post mine after. TIA :asian: *


Three at the beginning and two at the end. Did I win?
Sean


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## Steve Howard (Jan 26, 2004)

In the older variation of the technique (still taught in many of the Tracy's, Tracy-variant & "Chinese" system curriculums), Five Swords was a one-handed/one-sided technique, with the initial block being  a knife-hand block.   Thus, the original five swords were (again, all strikes being executed with the same hand):
1) knife-hand block
2) knife-hand strike to side of neck
3) spear-hand to the solar plexis or floating ribs
4) knife-hand strike to back of neck
5) knife-hand strike to temple
(note that targets would be adjusted according to opponent's reaction; particularly with strikes 4 & 5).

The more common variant of "Five Swords"  practiced by most studios today is actually a modification of an older "Seven Swords" technique, which incorporated strikes with both hands.   Again,  all of those strikes were openhanded.    The modern "Five Swords" adapted  the  technique "Seven Swords", substituting "safer" strikes in place of the traditional spear-hands (strikes which required no hand or finger conditioning) and omiting the final strike, but keeping the more recognized and popular  "Five Sword" moniker.

Thus, in the EPAK version of "Five Swords",  the reference is to the five strikes performed after the initial inward block,  regardless of which combination or variation of strikes is being used.

Salute,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com


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## MisterMike (Jan 27, 2004)

Interesting! Thank you Steve. I knew there were variations of it out there.

I run it with the following handswords/pokes:

Right outward handsword to the neck
Left 4-finger poke to the eyes
Left outward handsword to the neck
Right hammering handsword to the back of the neck
*extension*
Right outward handsword to the front of the neck

Now, I have heard that before the extension, everything was open handed, so the uppercut was a poke as well as you stated.

Thanks,


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## Rainman (Mar 9, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Interesting! Thank you Steve. I knew there were variations of it out there.
> 
> I run it with the following handswords/pokes:
> 
> ...




1. As you step in the left handsword above the wrist- the right handsword to the bicepts
2.  As you pivot into a forward bow left thrusting handsword to the corotid artery
3. Pivot into a horse stance as you execute a right hand sword to the heart
4. Left rear cross as you execute a slicing left handsword to the left side of the neck and immediately shape the hand in the form of a crane and pull the opponent down
5. Right handsword to the medulla oblangata or gv 16.

So here is a version with all handswords  artyon:


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## Seig (Mar 9, 2004)

The way I was originally taught it:

1.) Step in and execute a double sword hand block (left hand to wrist, right hand to radial nerve at the head of the forearm.)
2.) Rebound the right hand to an inward handsword strike to the hinge of the jaw.
3.) Shift to a forward bow and execute a spear hand (palm down) to the throat (Adam's apple)
4.) Step with the left foot to 4:30 in a slight rear twist while executing a right spear hand (palm up) to the zyphoid process or solar plexus (depending on skill level) as you are retreacting the right hand rebound off of your biceps with the left hand using an outward handsword (palm down) to the mastoid.
5.) Immediately crane the hand and pull the head down as you shift into a horse stance and execute a downward hand sword to the juncture of the cervical spine and the thoracic spine.


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## Michael Billings (Mar 10, 2004)

Trouble finding 5?? 

 Not to mention the outward handsword that clears the left arm (if it is there) when your left rebounds into the throat or mastoid, the right is rebounding from the stomach/ribs/solar plexus into the brachioradialus on the inside of the opponent's left arm (watch it drop like a lead weight).

 ... then again, I learned it originally as Seven Swords, I think I can still sqeeze in that many if I do the extension, but I prefer a good uppercut to the vertical spear hand of 25 years ago.

  -Michael


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## ob2c (Mar 19, 2004)

Interesting...

I've heard that Five Swords was originally called 'Five Count', and three versions were taught for three different attacks. Anyone know if this is true? If so, did 'Five Count' pre or post date 'Seven Swords'?


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## BlackPhoenix (Apr 7, 2004)

Without getting to much into detail it's pretty easy to figure out...This is basically the Swords in Five Swords.

*1.* Right Outward *Handsword* To Right Side Of Opponent's Neck.
*2.* Left Thusting *Spear-Hand* Palm Down To Opponent's Eyes.
*3.* Right Thrusting Vertical *Spear-Hand* To Opponent's Mid Section Below Solar Plexus.
*4.* Left Outward *Handsword* To Left Side Of Opponent's Neck.
*5.* Right Hammering *Handsword* To Opponent's Mastoid Or Back Of Neck.

Number 2. could be a Two Finger Eye Thrust Also, ( *"Spock-Hand"* ).
Numebr 3. would be a vertical three finger thrust, ( *"First Three Fingers Tips Alligned With Each Other So That They Are Flush When Making Contact"* ). Keep In Mind That Most People Will Not Take The Time To Condition Their Fingers To Create An Effective Strike To Such Targets.


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 13, 2004)

Uh...since a spear-hand is not a hand-sword, maybe y'all might want to learn the useless filler extension. Or at least Long Form 4, eh?


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## BlackPhoenix (Apr 14, 2004)

Remember that the sword hand can chop, slice or stab. It's still part of the sword-hand.



			
				rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Uh...since a spear-hand is not a hand-sword, maybe y'all might want to learn the useless filler extension. Or at least Long Form 4, eh?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 15, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Trouble finding 5??
> 
> Not to mention the outward handsword that clears the left arm (if it is there) when your left rebounds into the throat or mastoid, the right is rebounding from the stomach/ribs/solar plexus into the brachioradialus on the inside of the opponent's left arm (watch it drop like a lead weight).
> 
> ...


I remember one version of Seven Swords going around that had a R. rigid hand to the groin in place of the vertical spear:

1. R. Inward Knife Hand Block
2. R. Outward Handsword
3. L. Horizontal Spearhand to eyes (opponents R., preferably); R. hand moves to position behind the body (like reachnig for a holstered gun on R. hip)
4. R. Rigid Hand to groin w/ L. fulcrum at medial biceps (also serving as a check)
5. L. Outward Handsword; R. hand positioning as if to stick fingers in R. ear, palm up, palmar aspect of wrist facing away fom body
6. Right Inward-Downward handsword, following through past target to to the contralateral side of the body, describing a figure-8, leading to..
7. R. Outward descending Handsword.

Fun speed, positioning, and momentum drill, but feels open compared to more recent models.  Anybody else get this one?

BTW...Whatever happened to the Dble Hooking Parry versions of the short forms? Does anybody do them anymore? Are they part of any of the major AK organization's cirricula?  Found them in some old notes from, like, 76-77. Hey? Where did my hair go?

Tchuss!

D.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 15, 2004)

In the spirit of Print, then Script, then Shorthand, Mr. White showed a fun shorthand piece. On the way in to the inward knife hand block, open up the path of travel to include an inward finger slice to the eyes. How cool is that?


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 15, 2004)

I wouldn't have thought that saying a spear-hand is not a sword hand was exactly radical knowledge, but OK, fine.

In Long 4, "right side," of "Five Swords," the hands, simplified a bit:

1. Step forward and block with a left outward hand-sword and a right inward hand-sword (that's two).
2. Execute a right outward hand-sword, maintaining the left check (total three so far);
3. After the eye-poke and right shot to the gut, step off and execute a left outward hand-sword to the opponent's neck, turning that sword into a hooking chop aand setting up a right hand-sword to the back of an opponent's neck as they attempt to rise...(total five, eh?)

Et voila. Five swords there are...my understanding is that this is the oldest or, "root," form of the technique, but I could very well be wrong about that...


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## Kenpo_Chick (May 22, 2004)

Hey I know it's probably too late to add in my bit as you guys haven't replied to this since April but...

This was a discussion brought up in our class and I think (if I can remember rightly) that our instructors said that the upper cut in the old times use to be a knife hand to the sternum but because it's risky we use upper cuts. So we have put a variation on Five Swords so that it's not true to it's name. So...this is what I think is five swords:

1/ Step in double block - _1st Knife Hand _

2/ Knife hand to the neck - _2nd Knife Hand_

3/ Palm heel to the jaw (or under the nose) - _Not a knife hand_

4/ knife hand to sternum - _3rd_ _Knife Hand_

5/ Knife hand to the throat - _4th Knife Hand_

6/ Pull attacker down and knife hand to the back of the neck - _5th Knife Hand_

_:idunno: _I think that's what they said :uhyeah:


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## Bill Lear (May 22, 2004)

Kenpo_Chick said:
			
		

> 1/ Step in double block - _1st Knife Hand _



1. While standing naturally, have your right foot step forward into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00) checking the inside of your opponent's right knee with your right knee. In the process execute a right inward block to the inside of your opponent's right forearm, while using your left hand to check high. (The effect of both actions is to expose the width of his body.)

*No handsword strike here.* :idunno: 





			
				Kenpo_Chick said:
			
		

> 2/ Knife hand to the neck - _2nd Knife Hand_



2. Immediately strike to the right side of your opponent's neck with a right outward handsword. (This action helps to nullify the Height, Width, and Depth Zones of your opponent.)

*Ahhh, a handsword.*  





			
				Kenpo_Chick said:
			
		

> 3/ Palm heel to the jaw (or under the nose) - _Not a knife hand_



3. Pivot into a right forward bow (facing 12:00) as you execute  left four-finger thrust (palm down) to your opponent's eyes while your right hand cocks to your right hip (fist clenched and palm up). (The effect of this poke should snap your opponent's head back and away from you.)

*Hmmm... Is a four-finger thrust to the eyes a handsword? I dunno. In this instance I'll say yes. Handsword #2?* :idunno: 





			
				Kenpo_Chick said:
			
		

> 4/ knife hand to sternum - _3rd_ _Knife Hand_



4. Having caused your opponent's head to move away from you will cause his midsection to jut forward. Take advantage of this anticipated response by pivoting into  right neutral bow, as you strike with a right uppercut punch to your oppoent's stomach. In the process, your left hand becomes a cocking check that is guarding horizontally, palm down near your right biceps. (This action should result in your opponent bending over at the waist.) 

*Uppercut. Not a handsword.* :uhohh: 





			
				Kenpo_Chick said:
			
		

> 5/ Knife hand to the throat - _4th Knife Hand_



5. With your opponent now bending over, immediately have your left foot slide counterclockwise (toward 4:30) into a right forward bow (while now facing 10:30), as your left handsword strikes to the left side of your opponent's neck. Your right hand acts sa a positional check against any further potential danger from your opponent's left arm.

*A handsword!* artyon: 





			
				Kenpo_Chick said:
			
		

> 6/ Pull attacker down and knife hand to the back of the neck - _5th Knife Hand_



6. Without hesitation and while pivoting into a right neutral bow, have your left hand (during the interum) hook to the left side of, as well as on top of, your opponent's neck, to aid you in pulling his head down if necessary. Within the double flow (the circular movements of both of your hands) of your action, execute a right inward handsword to the back of your opponent's neck. At the time your right handsword strikes, your left hand should be checking low.

*Another one! But, that's only four so far, right?* 

*EXTENSION TIME!* :uhyeah:

7. Immediately (from your left hand checking position) execute a left inward-upward heel palm under your oppoent's chin. Instantly convert this strike into an inward five-finger claw across your opponent's face as your right hnd cocks (palm up) to the left side of your heart. This action shouldturn your opponent's head toward you.

8. Instantly pivot counterclockwise into a right reverse as you execute a right outward (diagonally upward) *handsword* to the right side of your opponent's neck.

*Handsword #5!!!* :knight: 

9. From your right reverse bow, deliver a right back stiff-leg lifting kick to your opponent's groin. (Drag your left foot toward your right foot if you need to gauge your distance.)

10. From the point of contact of your kick, execute a right front crossover, and cover out twice toward 4:30.

*Sometimes the techniques get their names from their extensions. Like Dance Of Death, you technically don't start dancing on your opponent in that one until you hit the extension. Just a thought... I could be wrong.*


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## Michael Billings (May 22, 2004)

Billy,

 Just an FYI that you may already know, but may be new for the others.

 Five Swords originally was done with a "Spear Hand" (verticle 4-finger thrust), instead of the uppercut.  

 The extension used to be the whole thing, and it was called Seven Swords.  Boy am I getting old or what?  Doc, check me if I am wrong.

 The technique has evolved and mutated so the initial move can be two handswords; or

 inserted between the right outward handsword to the right side of the neck and the horizontal finger thrust to the eyes, is a right outward downward raking handsword (to check width and height); etc

 some do a heel palm instead of the finger thrust to the eyes, some do a heel palm, grafting into a fulcruming 4-finger horizontal eye strike.

 Ideal phase?  Depends on whether you are doing EPAK, or Tracy, or a Chinese variant.

 Have fun and play with them all considering this is not the EPAK Forum, but a Technical Kenpo/KEMPO forum.

 -Michael


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## Bill Lear (May 23, 2004)

Mr. Billings,

I've been told that the original did have a spear hand instead of an uppercut. I also know that the original technique with extension was Seven Swords.

I understood the topic as being "Where are the five swords in Five Swords?" I guess this thread should more appropriately be called "Why is Five Swords called Five Swords?".

I know that this in the Technical Kenpo/KEMPO forum. I'm only offering the version that was published in the I.K.K.A. manuals circa 1987.

Lastly, I maintain that in Ed Parker's American Kenpo the technique name has remained Five Swords because that is what it is when executed in it's entirety (including the extension).


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## Doc (May 23, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Billy,
> 
> Just an FYI that you may already know, but may be new for the others.
> 
> ...



As usual, on the money Big Mike. Originally, the "orange belt" chart (the first chart) was 32 techniques that included what are now called "extensions" as a part of the technique. When the extensions were lopped off to be added later, 7 Swords became 5 Swords, which was originally known as the "Five Count" before techniques had specific names.

All the "old farts" know that. (Sorry Mike)


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## Doc (May 23, 2004)

ob2c said:
			
		

> Interesting...
> 
> I've heard that Five Swords was originally called 'Five Count', and three versions were taught for three different attacks. Anyone know if this is true? If so, did 'Five Count' pre or post date 'Seven Swords'?




1. Five Count

2. Seven Swords

3. Five Swords

4. Five Swords w/ extension or Seven Swords

5. Actually 4 Swords now but retains the name 5 Swords for some.

6. Eany meany chili beany, the spirits are about to speak! (any takers?)


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## Michael Billings (May 23, 2004)

Thanks for the history Doc.  I missed the 5 Count.  

 Billy, no offense intended.  I knew what you were referencing and why, and was merely trying to refocus given some of the non-EPAK people who still do Five or Seven Swords.  The extension did not have anything to do with the naming convention however.  But I can see how it could be rationalized or explained that way, as it makes sense.

 -Michael


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## sumdumguy (May 23, 2004)

Hey, what about "Slicing the Sun" ?.... Doc?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 23, 2004)

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Hey, what about "Slicing the Sun" ?.... Doc?


Chees-N-Crackers, Gotallmuddy...how old do you think he is?


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## Bill Lear (May 23, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Thanks for the history Doc.  I missed the 5 Count.
> 
> Billy, no offense intended.  I knew what you were referencing and why, and was merely trying to refocus given some of the non-EPAK people who still do Five or Seven Swords.  The extension did not have anything to do with the naming convention however.  But I can see how it could be rationalized or explained that way, as it makes sense.
> 
> -Michael



Thanks. Ya know... there are still a couple of guys that call it the "Five Count". Albert Cornejo, for instance, does that sometimes.

:supcool:


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## sumdumguy (May 23, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Chees-N-Crackers, Gotallmuddy...how old do you think he is?



      So, you have heard it as "slicing the sun"? or are you just crack'n..... 
 :boing2:


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## Doc (May 23, 2004)

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Hey, what about "Slicing the Sun" ?.... Doc?


Now that's one I haven't heard, but in the old, and even not so old days when guys would break off from Parker, they would use his basic techniques but change some of the names to make it "different." Tracy's did both, using some names and creating new names for old techniques I recognized.

But in the end those names are only for group consumption for teaching purposes (as you know), it's the content and effectiveness of the technique that's important no matter what its called. Some of them are bad on both ends. Bad names and bad techniques.

This was and is common since Parker in one Kenpo perspective emphasized "flexibility, self-expression, and creativity." Everyone may think they're a good cook, but a bad chef will be exposed as soon as the guests "sit down to eat."

"Nuthin' up my sleeve."


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## sumdumguy (May 23, 2004)

That's why I don't cook..lol
I may have heard the slicing the sun thing from someone else.. who knows? Mr. Rainey still calls it Five count to this day, along with ?????? tech that he calls "hot hands" anyone?
Thanks Doc     :asian:


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## Doc (May 24, 2004)

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> That's why I don't cook..lol
> I may have heard the slicing the sun thing from someone else.. who knows? Mr. Rainey still calls it Five count to this day, along with ?????? tech that he calls "hot hands" anyone?
> Thanks Doc     :asian:


Well I don't know about a technique, but A.C. always had smokin' "hot hands." One of the many, but few good guys of kenpo that not enough people know about.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 24, 2004)

Seen some very cool modifications, designed to augment the flare-of-specialty of the particular guy who broke off. Some wicked, purely head-hunting versions of the same general movement pattern, but obviously sacrificing some of the lessons perhaps meant to be in the originals.

Liked some of the names, sometimes even better than the techniques...Daggar Set (14-point), Whirling Swords (wider arcs), etc. All pretty much resembled slight modifications of the (sp?) redundo pattern from arnis.  Saw one called "perpetual swords", blending the six-point arnis drill with 5-swords. Fun drill.

For the coop-dee-grass, though, I still burn with envy & admiration when watching that clip of Mr. Parker doing 5-swords on Mr. Picks website. You would never think, in a million years, if you just met the stocky Hawaiian on the street that he could move that fast and walk away before non-chalantly before you identified which way your eyes rolled.

Just sickly freakin' cool.

D.


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## sumdumguy (Jun 2, 2004)

I think thier site is down.... wanted to see that darn it! I have a video of him doing a commercial for the pasadena school? maybe, pretty smoke'n stuff.....
 :asian:


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## dubljay (Jun 21, 2004)

The black text is verbatim from the EPAK orange belt manual. Blue is where I was taught to count the swords

 1.  While standing naturally with feat together, step forward and slightly to your left (to 11 o'clock) with your right foot (still in a neutral bow) and deliver a right inward strike to inside of opponent's right punch using your left hand to check.
 2.  Immediately strike to opponent's neck with your right outward chop.(1)
 3.  Left finger thrust (palm down) (2 modified to a heal palm to the chin) to opponent's eyes as your right hand cocks to your right hip.  This is done while you pivot into a right forward bow.
 4.  With left hand now guarding horizontally and open (palm down) deliver a right uppercut to opponent's solar plexus as you pivot to a right neutral bow(3).
 5.  Immediately have your left foot slide counter clockwise (to 4 o'clock) into a right forward bow as your left heal palm strikes to left jaw of opponent (4 modified to a left outward chop to the left side of the opponent's neck with frictional pull to bend the opponent over) (striking in an outwardly fashion).  Without hesitation and while shifting into a right neutral bow have your left hand hook and pull opponent's head down as your deliver a right overhead downward handsword (5) to the back of opponent's neck.


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## Kenpo_Chick (Jun 22, 2004)

HEY GUYS!! MISS ME!?!?! (Doubt it but I'm gonna tell you something anyway!)



			
				Bill Lear said:
			
		

> 1. While standing naturally, have your right foot step forward into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00) checking the inside of your opponent's right knee with your right knee. In the process execute a right inward block to the inside of your opponent's right forearm, while using your left hand to check high. (The effect of both actions is to expose the width of his body.)
> 
> No handsword strike here. :idunno:
> 
> ...


WELL CATCH YOU GUYS LATA!!


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## Michael Billings (Jun 22, 2004)

Kenpo Chick, 

 I am glad you had so much fun posting your instructor's interpretation of Five Sword.  It was very entertaining to read.  I particularly liked the"


> A handswartyon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Glad you are back,
 -Michael


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