# Olympic style sparring vs. traditional TKD: why all the fuss??



## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

On quite a few threads here and on other MA boards, I see this subject come up whenever taekwondo is discussed and particularly with the Olympics having just concluded.  Those who practice primarily traditional martial arts or non WTF taekwondo take a lot of shots at the olympic style of sparring and some those who participate in it go to great lengths to explain why Olympic sparring isn't a martial art.

I am always a bit bemused by this.  As a kendo instructor, I teach an art that has an 'art' side and a sport side.  On the art side are forms, step sparring, and in our school, elements of iaito and kenjutsu.  On the sport side is a fencing style characterized by a bamboo sword and protective gear with limited target areas and limited selection of techniques.  Nobody complains that the tournament style is in some way not a martial art or is somehow inferior to the martial art side.  It is simply a part of kendo and kendoka have no issue with it.  Those who do not have an interest in sparring either focus on the forms and step sparring or seek out a school that is entirely 'art' (such as an iaito school), and have their respect for the sport kendo.  The kendoka have their respect for them.  No issues.

So why is it that WTF/Olympic style sparring is often such a hot button?  Is there some reason that it isn't looked upon in a similar fashion without the animosity I sometimes see towards it?  I have seen it called everything from silly to garbage, which I personally find a bit extreme, when a simple, 'it's not for me' would do just fine.  While I think that it has its flaws, what doesn't?  I've also noticed that bad behaviour by some of the athletes has been used as on opportunity in various places to say that the sport should not even exist.

On the other side, there are some, the Lopez family seemingly among them, who would separate the sport from the art.  Some go so far as to answer any criticism from the MA community with the line, 'it isn't a martial art.'  I don't quite understand that either.  The sport of taekwondo is tied, no matter how you slice it, with the martial art from which it came.  It uses punches, kicks, and blocks from the full martial art, limits the use of techniques and target area, and has a point system.  You don't have to spar to learn taekwondo, but if you want to learn the Olympic sparring style, you certainly can.

So why the big divide? 

Daniel


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 26, 2008)

Partially because it is an olympic sport and as such brings a lot attention to the art.  Positive in the sense of popularity but negative in the sense that is *all* some people see of the art, including other martial artists


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> Partially because it is an olympic sport and as such brings a lot attention to the art. Positive in the sense of popularity but negative in the sense that is *all* some people see of the art, including other martial artists


 

FF is right nobody looks beyod the sport side playeds with hands down and just checking and waiting. It goes against everything a SD principle art delivers.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

But if they don't look beyond it, do you think that they will then go out and get into fights with their hands down? 

Or, if they never look beyond that, but decide to take taekwondo, unless they go to a sport only school, with no SD element, they'll learn very quickly that there is much more to taekwondo than just the sport element.

Also, 99% of the people who never look beyond it would never take taekwondo anyway, even if the sport was more like the SD.

Daniel


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> FF is right nobody looks beyod the sport side playeds with hands down and just checking and waiting. It goes against everything a SD principle art delivers.


 
That is why people like me think that we should just change the name of the sport.  I propose Karkwonjitdo


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 26, 2008)

Karkwonjitdo?  Sounds catchy, though I have no clue what it means. 

Mango, I know that you draw a very definative line of separation between the two, and enthusiastically promote the sport on the forums.  And Terry and FF feel that the sport should be separated for their own reasons while not being enthusiastic about it.  

But why do you feel that the sport should be separated?  Can it simply not exist as the sport aspect of taekwondo, being treated as an athletic competition with its base in the martial art, much as the sport of kendo has its basis in the art of kendo?

Daniel


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## mango.man (Aug 26, 2008)

Simply because there are already so many different variations of Taekwondo and all with their own set of rules for life as well as sport.  Let's just separate this and then ITF people won't tune in expecting to see punches to the face.  And ATA people won't tune in and wonder why they dont stop and reset after each point is scored.  And Martial Artists won't tune in and wonder why they scream and pump their fists in the air.  Etc.


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2008)

mango.man said:


> That is why people like me think that we should just change the name of the sport. I propose Karkwonjitdo


 
I agree mango.man a name change would help both the sport side and the MA side. I can never see this happening to many people would need to agree.


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Karkwonjitdo? Sounds catchy, though I have no clue what it means.
> 
> Mango, I know that you draw a very definative line of separation between the two, and enthusiastically promote the sport on the forums. And Terry and FF feel that the sport should be separated for their own reasons while not being enthusiastic about it.
> 
> ...


 
This is not true I am enthusiatic about the sport side of TKD, my reason is simple I trained in the original side of TKD combat ready for a better word, got envolved in the sportside about ten years ago, we do both for all students that want it. I guess we need seperation so the Art of TKD and the sport of TKD can grow in harmony.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I agree mango.man a name change would help both the sport side and the MA side. I can never see this happening to many people would need to agree.




Not to mention the big and obvious question, which side gets to keep "Tae Kwon Do" as the name?

I just can't see what the big deal is, "Tae Kwon Do" is just doing what other names have done, becoming generic.  Karate & Kung fu are no different, in fact I would say there is even more variation within different branches of them then there are in TKD right now.  Given more time it will spread out even more.


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 26, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Not to mention the big and obvious question, which side gets to keep "Tae Kwon Do" as the name?
> 
> I just can't see what the big deal is, "Tae Kwon Do" is just doing what other names have done, becoming generic.  Karate & Kung fu are no different, in fact I would say there is even more variation within different branches of them then there are in TKD right now.  Given more time it will spread out even more.



I mentioned that in a post a few weeks back.  That the term "Tae Kwon Do" was a generic name to make the marketing of Korean Martial Arts easier to the rest of the world, and there's a lot you can put under that umbrella.


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## crushing (Aug 26, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Not to mention the big and obvious question, which side gets to keep "Tae Kwon Do" as the name?


 
Given what strikes earn points, I thought it would be obvious that Olympic TKD should be simply called Taedo.  Well, I suppose NoKwondo would work too!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2008)

I no longer train TKD but when I did it was Pre-Olympic and we were trained in close range fighting as well as high kicks and there were take downs and strikes to areas that would not exactly give you points in Olympic TKD, actually they would get you kicked out. It became an Olympic sport while I trained it and my teacher did teach both sides, although he thought most protective gear was pretty funny. 

There is no problem, IMO, teaching both sides but many TKD school do not these days. They ONLY teach the Olympic side that is, IMO, the problem. My last step into the TKD world was by invitation and I had been training CMA for a few years by then. We went there for sparing and upon arrival they TKD teacher told us that we could only hit certain areas and we could not use joint locks and we could not stick to the other guy. After hearing this I sat down and did not spar. He later did ask me why and I told him he pretty much told me I could not fight the way I had been trained to and that I had to fight like a sport TKD guy and since I was not a sport TKD guy I did not see any reason to spar. 

That is the problem I have with Olympic TKD


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## punisher73 (Aug 27, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> On quite a few threads here and on other MA boards, I see this subject come up whenever taekwondo is discussed and particularly with the Olympics having just concluded. Those who practice primarily traditional martial arts or non WTF taekwondo take a lot of shots at the olympic style of sparring and some those who participate in it go to great lengths to explain why Olympic sparring isn't a martial art.
> 
> I am always a bit bemused by this. As a kendo instructor, I teach an art that has an 'art' side and a sport side. On the art side are forms, step sparring, and in our school, elements of iaito and kenjutsu. On the sport side is a fencing style characterized by a bamboo sword and protective gear with limited target areas and limited selection of techniques. Nobody complains that the tournament style is in some way not a martial art or is somehow inferior to the martial art side. It is simply a part of kendo and kendoka have no issue with it. Those who do not have an interest in sparring either focus on the forms and step sparring or seek out a school that is entirely 'art' (such as an iaito school), and have their respect for the sport kendo. The kendoka have their respect for them. No issues.


 
In a way you are comparing apples to oranges.  With Kendo, you learn the same material whether you want to spar/compete or if you don't compete in the art.  Now, talk to someone who practices ken-jutsu and related japanese sword arts and they badmouth kendo and talk about how the sport has no relation to real swordfighting and that stuff only works in sportfighting.  THAT is the argument you are getting with the differing branches of TKD, one is based on a sport and fights according to that sport, the other branch(es) try to maintain the fighting art and are not concerned with just the limited sports rules.


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## zDom (Aug 27, 2008)

Here's what part of the problem is, as I see it:

When I heard TKD was becoming an Olympic sport, I thought: wow! awesome! Not only can keep myself in shape and learn to defend myself, but I could, conceivably, even compete in an Olympic sport!

It didn't take long for me to discover that Olympic TKD was not FOR people doing TKD! Almost immediately, people figured out how to "game the game" and began inventing a NEW TKD that had almost nothing to do with REAL TKD.

And Olympic competition was ONLY FOR the people who were training this new TKD.

They (the Olympic-style TKD folk) decided that only arc kicks (they call them "roundhouse kick"), Axe Kicks (which, as they do them, are very often Crescent kicks) and spinning kicks are "effective" and narrowed down their training to include only those.

These Olympic Style TKD folk race up through the ranks (it doesn't take nearly as long, does it, when you only have a couple of kicks to learn and don't really care if the forms are done correctly  or "redefine" the forms so that they are SUPPOSED to be done as the sport TKD folk were doing them: lazy stances ands sloppy indistinct, non-practical for combat movements).

Officials are all FROM this alternate-reality TKD (raced up through the ranks  many can't fight their way out of a paper sack or do a decent form if their lives depended on it  but what does that matter when they have a 5th or 6th degree "black belt", judging credentials from the WTF, and a snappy suit?), and so they have these preconceived notions about what is and what is not a point.

After all, THEY never managed to throw a sidekick or punch with any "trembling shock" (nor ever FELT one ...), so SURELY that silly traditionalist using them in the ring is just playing patty-cake on the hogu* no points for HIM!


And so, in short, I feel as if the Olympic TKD folk HIJACKED the art I used to study, the art I LOVE, and distorted it into something laughable  and then the world began to THINK and BELIEVE that 

OLYMPIC style TKD _*IS*_ Taekwondo!!!


And its not. It's a game that SHOULD be played by REAL TKD'ists, but was taken over, highjacked by folk who use the TKD name, wear "TKD" rank, and don't know any more about the art of TKD than I had learned by GREEN belt.

Animosity? Hell ya. They stole a game that coulda ended up being really fun and ruined it.

The excitement that I felt when I heard TKD was going to become an Olympic sport was replaced by a hope that they really WILL remove it from the list of Olympic sports so all these

USURPERS

will dry up and blow away.

Good luck, Karate folk, in your drive to see Karate become an Olympic sport. But don't get your hopes up TOO high. It might not turn out like you think it should.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The USAT can start by changing the rules so that fighters who are not Ji Do Kwan are equal to those that are. The USAT is a Ji Do Kwan organization. If you are not JDK, good luck.


This is reposted from Terry's thread, 'can we overcome the Olympics?'  I thought that it was an interesting observation.  I ask the question; if this is indeed the case, would simply calling it Ji Do Kwan  be appropriate? 

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Simply because there are already so many different variations of Taekwondo and all with their own set of rules for life as well as sport. Let's just separate this and then ITF people won't tune in expecting to see punches to the face. And ATA people won't tune in and wonder why they dont stop and reset after each point is scored. And Martial Artists won't tune in and wonder why they scream and pump their fists in the air. Etc.


One of the issues that confuses things, Mango, is that Olympic schools that teach it soley as a sport still have belts and traditional rankings.  Why not do what fencing did; have an A-E rating for competative fencers and a U rating (unrated) for those who do not actively compete.  All ratings are based upon competative status and competative record and go up and down depending on the competitor's status.  Why not just dispense with belts entirely?  That would certainly help to separate the two.  

But when you say that the Olympic sport TKD is not a martial art, but have the traditional trappings, don't you think that that lends to the confusion that those unfamiliar with the Olympic style have?

Regarding the fist pumping, I see that as a separate issue.  That comes down to sportsmanship.  I'm not personally averse to it, but I'm not in favor of it either.  When I score a touch in epee, I don't shout 'yes!' and pump my fist.  Generally, neither so those I fence with.  And many of them are USFA competative fencers.  The coach there also discourages such behavior and calls it unsportsmanlike.  

I don't think that _anyone_ wonders why they pump their fists; we all watch other competative sports or have played in sports at some point in our lives.  Personally, I just find it juvenile and on the Olympic stage, I consider it out of place, Taekwondo or not.

Daniel


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## Kwanjang (Aug 27, 2008)

ZDom, I beleive you are dead on the money with your post! I like how you used the term "highjacked"! You and I (and probably many other on this forum) Have witnessed beautifil, powerful, almost cat like TKDist point sparring. The matches- full of counter spinning kicks, controled well placed hand techniques. No hiting after break, No raising of the hand on a technique that scored. I could go on..grumble, grumble.


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## zDom (Aug 27, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Regarding the fist pumping, I see that as a separate issue.  That comes down to sportsmanship.  I'm not personally averse to it, but I'm not in favor of it either.  When I score a touch in epee, I don't shout 'yes!' and pump my fist.  Generally, neither so those I fence with.  And many of them are USFA competative fencers.  The coach there also discourages such behavior and calls it unsportsmanlike.
> 
> I don't think that _anyone_ wonders why they pump their fists; we all watch other competative sports or have played in sports at some point in our lives.  Personally, I just find it juvenile and on the Olympic stage, I consider it out of place, Taekwondo or not.
> 
> Daniel



I agree. I was brought up to show class and sportsmanship &#8212; after all, anyone who has the courage to get in there and risk injury is worthy of our (mutual) respect!

It seems those that DON'T have this type of class and sportsmanship are, well, MISSING something; they didn't end up with the development of character that I (and others) associate with training in martial arts.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2008)

I agree.  Funny thing is, Scott, the athletes that we collectively seem to respect most are the ones who show humility in victory.  

Everyone (hyperbole, not truly everyone) hates Tom Brady and the Pats.  Not because they suck; they don't at all.  But they're arrogant about it.  There's allegations of cheating (spygate).  People don't like them because they're perceived as unsportsmanlike.  They're perceived as 'win at any cost'.  Then there's Brady's public breakup with his girlfriend and dating of Giselle that generated a lot of news.

On the other hand, everyone likes Joe Gibbs, even if they don't like the Redskins and even if they can't stand the team owner, Dan Snyder.  Gibbs is a good coach with four superbowls on his resume, but he carries himself as a humble guy.  

Evander Holyfield was very gracious in his victory over Mike Tyson and magnanimous regarding the ear biting.  Everyone respected that.  

While I don't know that he coined it, Maitre Adam Adrian Crown (fencing master) once said that it cost nothing to be polite in victory.  He also advocates the idea that if a viewer were to see only the two opponents at the conclusion of the match, they should not be able to tell who was the winner and who was the loser.  Each opponent should simply salute, bow, or handshake and acknowledge the other with a 'good game/match/bout/whatever' and then exit the strip/ring/field/whatever.

Though this comes from the old school fencing world, I believe that it should apply to all athletics: "Humble in victory, gracious in defeat"

Daniel


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## Cirdan (Aug 28, 2008)

In short Olympic TKD in a way represents all the problems in the art. The deeper aspects have been largely lost in the rush to unify and popularize it and flashy useless stuff fills the void.


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## terryl965 (Aug 28, 2008)

*The corruption to gain acceptance has over shadow the purity of an *
*Art.*

I believe this has said it all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> In short Olympic TKD in a way represents all the problems in the art. The deeper aspects have been largely lost in the rush to unify and popularize it and flashy useless stuff fills the void.


 
Yes, but does it have to be that way?  Does a practitioner of taekwondo lose all that they have been taught by joining USAT and going for the gold?  They don't have to.  My grandmaster is the 1992 Korean National champion.  But he teaches a very traditional class with two nights dedicated specifically to the Olympic style sparring.  He expects the _same_ calibre of behaviour in both classes and _will_ make you do fifty knuckle pushups if you can't conduct yourself appropriately.  Incidentally, he is a member of USAT and formerly a member of USTU.  Neither this, nor his days in competition, nor the fact that he teaches the Olympic sport, have caused him to lose any of the deeper aspects of the art.

This is one of the reasons that I _don't_ advocate separating the two.  In fact, I think that severing the link between taekwondo as a martial art and taekwondo as a sport would be detrimental to the sport.  The art would suffer nothing.

Daniel


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## Manny (Aug 28, 2008)

For me the competitions of TKD (kyorugi) are apreciation GAMES where the fighter who makes more POINTS is the winner, sure there are times when a well executed KO ends the competition.

The TKD olimpic stile competition is a point game period. In this olimpic games as in the others ,score a point is subjetive, I saw a lot of good kicks that were no scored, I saw maches where one competitor scored ono or two points and then, protected these points to win a mach I don't like it, also I don't like the gold point (sudent death) and what really bothers me is that the judges must to say who's the winner when there are no points.

TKD competition is no MA fight, it's  a sports oriented game.

What I really like about TKD is the martial side, how to punch, how to block,parry and dodge, how to avoid harm using the MA, how to kick efectively to disable (not to score a point) a BG.

In my dojan we use a lot of kicking techniques (sport oriented I have to confess) but almost CERO punching techniques, and very few self defense, that's why if  I had a dojan I would teach more traditional TKD than sports oriented TKD, I will leave the sports TKD as a complement not the whole thing.

Manny


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## zDom (Aug 28, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> This is one of the reasons that I _don't_ advocate separating the two.  In fact, I think that severing the link between taekwondo as a martial art and taekwondo as a sport would be detrimental to the sport.  The art would suffer nothing.
> 
> Daniel



The link is already weak enough that sport TKD _HAS _suffered. 

I think the Cuban fighter indicident illustrates this: how far has his school fallen from the character-building aspects of TKD, the tenets of taekwondo, that not only is sportsmanship completely out of the picture, but he actually ASSAULTS an official?

And the art HAS suffered: nobody respects TKD anymore as a martial art. TKD should be _THE_ "go-to" art for MMA stylists who want to learn how to kick. Instead, they laugh at TKD and hunt down a Muay Thai school.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2008)

zDom said:


> The link is already weak enough that sport TKD _HAS _suffered.
> 
> I think the Cuban fighter indicident illustrates this: how far has his school fallen from the character-building aspects of TKD, the tenets of taekwondo, that not only is sportsmanship completely out of the picture, but he actually ASSAULTS an official?
> 
> And the art HAS suffered: nobody respects TKD anymore as a martial art. TKD should be _THE_ "go-to" art for MMA stylists who want to learn how to kick. Instead, they laugh at TKD and hunt down a Muay Thai school.


Absolutely right regarding the sport suffering due to a weak link between the art and the sport, which is why I disagree with Mango's wish to see the two separated entirely.

Regarding the martial art suffering, yes, it has.  But is that due to inclusion in the olympics or the proliferation of TKD McDojos, where six year old kids and a lot of undeserving teens and adults wear blackbelts?  Very, very few of these schools have anything like a competative team.  Yet these are the most commonly encountered schools.  

Not disagreeing with you; you're very right, particularly about the go-to for kicks part (Bruce Lee did just that when he approaced Jhoon Rhee).  But I don't think that Olympic inclusion is the main problem.  

I _do_ think that Olympic inclusion is a result _of_ the main problem, which is the lure of money.  The lure of suburban soccormom's money is how you get six year old blackbelts (the ATA even has a division for them) and the lure of the sponsorship dollars and national prestige of the Olympics is why the WTF became one of the IOC's many wives.

Anyway, excelent post as always

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Aug 28, 2008)

Your question how do we get a six year old Black Belt is an easy one it is paid for, from the parents who are so lame that they cannot see the wool being pulled over there very own eye's. TKD in general is a mass elusion of ones own dream, I get told everyday that I do not teach TKD because we hit to hard or we are trying to hurt people or the every popular one, why do we need to actually sweat at the other school we had pretty uniforms. 

Man has the art and sport gone down the drain and I see no way of retrieving it back.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Terry, I don't question how we get six year old black belts.  Sadly, it is as you say: money.  Which is the big problem I see with all of TKD's problems.

As for no way to retrieve it back, I do think that there is a way.  The one thing that the public looks at is what is presented to them: sports.  The public, as everyone has observed, sees the athletes in the Olympics.  No doubt in my mind that the best traditional schools are also capable of putting out the best athletes.  The best traditional schools already train hard, which to be a successful athlete, you need to do.  

Unfortunately, the traditional schools steer clear of the Olympic sport by and large.  But if more traditional schools were to involve themselves in the sport, then they'd be the ones with the best athletes.  Then they'd be the ones that everyone would want to emulate.

Just a few thoughts.

Daniel


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## mango.man (Aug 29, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Unfortunately, the traditional schools steer clear of the Olympic sport by and large. But if more traditional schools were to involve themselves in the sport, then they'd be the ones with the best athletes. Then they'd be the ones that everyone would want to emulate.


 
Sure if traditional schools had all the same tools and technology at their disposal that sport-centric "We build olympians" type places have.  Things like access to the best sports medicine in the country, nutritionists, use of technology like dartfish, a staff of people that go around to all the competitons solely to scout and put together notebooks on fighters, and of course staff and athletes who devote themselves to training 2-3 time per day for 2-3 hours at a time so that they achieve a major accomplishment like making their kick just .001 second faster.

But once you do all of that, you have crossed the line from traditional to sport.  Because once you are doing all of the above and so much more that I did not include above, there is no time in the day left for anything "traditional".


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## igillman (Aug 29, 2008)

The way that traditional TKD will survive today is the same way it survived under Japanese rule, by teaching it. The more people who teach it, the more people who learn it and the more people there will be to teach it down the road. The art is only lost when it is forgotten, as long as we do not let it be forgotten it will survive.

Olympic TKD will have its day, it will probably always be around in one form or another. Anyone who is convinced that they can get a black belt in 2 years or with no sweating can do to those schools, traditional TKD would not be for them anyway.

If a school cannot survive just doing traditional TKD then it is going to have to put on a class or two per week of "Olympic TKD". That is just the way the world works, sometimes you have to accept that something you don't like is here to stay (Windows Vista springs to mind). Encourage the people that go to each type of class to come along to the other type. The important thing is to keep teaching the traditional TKD.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Sure if traditional schools had all the same tools and technology at their disposal that sport-centric "We build olympians" type places have. Things like access to the best sports medicine in the country, nutritionists, use of technology like dartfish, a staff of people that go around to all the competitons solely to scout and put together notebooks on fighters, and of course staff and athletes who devote themselves to training 2-3 time per day for 2-3 hours at a time so that they achieve a major accomplishment like making their kick just .001 second faster.
> 
> 
> 
> But once you do all of that, you have crossed the line from traditional to sport. Because once you are doing all of the above and so much more that I did not include above, there is no time in the day left for anything "traditional".



Very, very few of the schools that use the Olympics to promote themselves have anything close to what you describe.  

I'm not sure how you define a traditional school, but the typical suburban dojang isn't it.  Traditional dojangs train you to fight for your life.  By virtue of that, the fighters train to make their kicks as fast as humanly possible and their block, parry and evasion skills as high as humanly possible.  After all, you'll fight a lot harder for your life than you will for belt or trophy.

If the school your daughter trains at has at its disposal all of what you say, then I'd imagine that it is a fantastic place for a blossoming athlete.  From the vids you've posted of her, she looks quite good and well trained.  

Obviously, for a traditional dojang to do what I described in my last post, they would have to have people there who can do what you described (notebooks on atheletes, nutritional advice etc.) but that does not preclude the traditional side.  Beside, what better place to start than with a group of well trained martial artists?    

Also, traditional schools fielded tournament champions for decades before the Olympics and those folks trained as hard as any modern athlete.  Lastly, technology does not make better athletes.  Very few modern boxers can equal Ali, either in ability or accomplishment.  It isn't for lack of technology.

Daniel


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## mango.man (Aug 29, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Very, very few of the schools that use the Olympics to promote themselves have anything close to what you describe.


 
And that is why very few schools produce olympians.  Schools can advertise themselves as olympic style schools but they will likely never produce an olympian.

There is a reason that people like Jean Lopez, Juan Moreno, Jimmy Kim, Patrice Remark, Jin Suh and a small number of others consistently end up with their players on the National Teams and why people travel from all over the country to train at these schools for a week or two during the summer or over winter break from school etc.  It is because those people have those types of resources and consistently use those resources to develop the best olympic TKDists in the country.

To use Charlotte as an example.  Her parents drive her roughly 60 miles each way to train at Jimmy Kims, 3-4 times a week.  I am sure there are Olympic style schools much closer to her home than that.  But if she went to those schools she would not have been on this years olympic team.  Because their olympic sparring program probably consists of sparring evey friday from 6:00-6:45 

And on those days that she is not training at Jimmy Kims she trains at home for hours on end.  Also several time a year, you will find her traveling to Texas to train with the Lopezes and Colorado Springs to train at the Olympic Training Center.  Her parents spend 10s of thousands of dollars a year on her training.  She has no life outside of TKD.  Everytime I speak with the parents and students that train with her at Jimmy Kims I ask what it is like to train with her and if seeing her success motivates the others to want the same thing.  9 out of 10 say they would not want Charlotte's life, because she has no life.  She is 100% dedicated to being the best and nothing is allowed to interfere.


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## mango.man (Aug 29, 2008)

igillman said:


> Olympic TKD will have its day, it will probably always be around in one form or another. Anyone who is convinced that they can get a black belt in 2 years or with no sweating can do to those schools, traditional TKD would not be for them anyway.


 
If you truly believe that Olympic TKDist do not sweat than I invite you to join us at our school someday.  Of course we don't really have a school yet.  But you can join us on the driveway we train on for now.  My daughter loses about 3 pounds per 2 hour workout.  That is what happens when you train on a driveway in full gear for 2 hours at a time in the San Fernando Valley where in August 100+ temps are common place.


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## bluekey88 (Aug 29, 2008)

I'll second that notion.  Our competition team kids put in the MOST work out of anybody in our dojang.  They also do best in the traditional curriculum as well as doing pretty well in the Olypic style sport aspect. We're not cranking out olympians (nore are we trying to), but for what it's worth...we work hard to train good martial artyists who are also good ocmpetitiors.  

The two sides aren't mutually exclusive, nor should one side disrespect or belittle the other.  THAT'S what makes TKD look bad in my opinion...all the factionist in-fighting, bickering and politics.  

Just get on the mat and train.  

Peace,
Erik


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## igillman (Aug 29, 2008)

I apologise, it came out wrong. I should have put a paragraph break between the two sentences or said something along the lines of...

Anyone who is interested in getting to the olympics OR wants a black belt within 2 years without sweating.

I know that whatever style you do, traditional, olympic, wtf, itf etc... you can train very hard for it if you want to.

My comment was about those people who do not want to train hard or who only want to do what they see on TV (hands down, Irish dancing type of sparring) without the rest of the moves (forms, board breaking etc...) getting in the way.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

mango.man said:


> And that is why very few schools produce olympians. Schools can advertise themselves as olympic style schools but they will likely never produce an olympian.
> 
> There is a reason that people like Jean Lopez, Juan Moreno, Jimmy Kim, Patrice Remark, Jin Suh and a small number of others consistently end up with their players on the National Teams and why people travel from all over the country to train at these schools for a week or two during the summer or over winter break from school etc. It is because those people have those types of resources and consistently use those resources to develop the best olympic TKDists in the country.
> 
> ...


 
Nobody training for the actual olympics is any different, regardless of the sport/art.  Charlotte, Nia, and the Lopezes are the exception rather than the rule.  Very few people can afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars on either their own training or that of their children.  

99.999% (guestimation based on observation, not hard numbers) of those who train in Olympic style TKD will ever make it to the olympics, or even train with the intent to do so.  Most quit after blackbelt, as most of those schools don't train their students to be either top athletes or top martial artists.  Most are just collecting the money.  If they push their students to be top athletes, the parents will complain just as much as traditional schools that push the students to be top martial artists. 

There are also competitors who do train in traditional schools and compete on the tournament circuit with no intent of making the Olympics, and I'm sure that these folks do have a life outside of TKD.  (Perhaps we should refer to it as Sport TKD, just as olympic fencing is technically Sport fencing?)

Anyway, hard training will produce good fighters, whether training for sport, SD or art.  The biggest issue that most of us in the MA community have with the bulk of schools _billed_ as olympic is that the hard training is absent (That is also true of many non olympic schools).  The other problem that many in the MA community have with them is that the students hold Kukkiwon rank, and the Kukkiwon is not an athletic body (the WTF is).  For that reason, they are still judged by the MA community from an MA perspective, whereas boxers and fencers, for example, are not.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> I'll second that notion. Our competition team kids put in the MOST work out of anybody in our dojang. They also do best in the traditional curriculum as well as doing pretty well in the Olympic style sport aspect. We're not cranking out olympians (nore are we trying to), but for what it's worth...we work hard to train good martial artyists who are also good ocmpetitiors.
> 
> The two sides aren't mutually exclusive, nor should one side disrespect or belittle the other. THAT'S what makes TKD look bad in my opinion...all the factionist in-fighting, bickering and politics.
> 
> ...


200% agree with you, and I'd rep you twice if I could!  You sum up my thoughts perfectly.

Just for the record, I _do_ enjoy and train for sport TKD.  Not exclusively, mind you, but I have a goal of competing later this year.  My first taekwondo tournament in over twenty years will be in October.  Just an interschool one, but hey, I've gotta start somewhere.

Daniel


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## KickFest (Aug 29, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> So why is it that WTF/Olympic style sparring is often such a hot button? Is there some reason that it isn't looked upon in a similar fashion without the animosity I sometimes see towards it? I have seen it called everything from silly to garbage, which I personally find a bit extreme, when a simple, 'it's not for me' would do just fine.


 
To go off on my own little rant: It's not as simple as saying "it's not for me", at least in my case. As the olympic rules are created by the WTF, the WTF schools I've seen all use these rules. They do learn all the hand techniques, but then when it comes to sparring, they're something of a taboo. My WTF 1st dan friend (at another school) a while ago said something along the lines of "only newbies use hands". Why learn these techniques if you're never going to learn how to apply them in a dynamic environment? 

Coming from an ITF background (now doing WTF), sparring without hands seems downright crazy. How on earth can it be as effective as it should be if you're throwing out at least half of your techniques when you're simulating a "combat" situation?? I've read comments about the probability of WTF practitioners keeping their guard down in a fight. My experience has suggested this is not the case, but the lack of hand experience shows up sorely if you chuck a fist at them above torso height.

This then contributes to the "TKD is worthless" argument and misconceptions.

There's some peeps on the board that are saying words to the effect of "My school isn't restricted by these rules" which is fantastic, but this seems to be the exception in the grand scheme of things.

SO

If we could split Sport TKD from MA TKD, then the current WTF schools could all use a "better" sparring model and then adapt to sport rules if and when required, rather than being crippled by said rules 100% of the time. I don't think Sport TKD should die (as grating as it is), but there needs to be a distinction between it and MA TKD, not just in definition but also in the common dojang.

Just my 0.02.


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## Zendokan (Aug 30, 2008)

I read the thread, and another problem with olympic TKD is the Olympic *television viewer*.
In those ten days fan of all types of sport watch every competition, not because they like them, but to see if their national athletes win medailles.
So people who normally only watch for example soccer and swimming will now also watch atletiques, sailing,cycling,ping pong...These type of viewers don't watch a Kyokushin Karate tournement, Muay Thai competitions or the UFC's.
And that's were there is a problem: "old school" TKD doesn't look "nice and sweet", so the WTF/Kukkiwon started slowly changing techniques years before TKD became Olympic to make it more appleasing to the overall viewer and getting it to become an Olympic sport.
(There's a lot of money to earn with the Olympic Games).

I try to describe my "old school" TKD as "Muay Savate" to let outsiders know that it is more effective and harder and has more techniques then the "Olympic Ballet". I could stand my ground against KKs and MTs without any problem and without modifying my techniques that I had learned. This is something Olympic TKDs can't say.

But nowadays when people think of TKD they think of Olympic TKD. General Choi would be so ashamed of the sellout. And when you don't play the rules of WTF/Kukkiwon they will destroy your club (I've seen it happen with my old club).


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## terryl965 (Aug 30, 2008)

Sorry but  the thing about people going out of there way to train because most cannot do it is ******** period. The only reason people go to them except Master Jimmy Kim is because they have the clout to help them get on the scene with USAT and they carry some wieght to who really gets the calls. I am sorry I have trained with all of them and so have my son but to me I am the best he has because I really care about him not about the money. Jean, Jaun and a few other go to them with talent and no cash and see if they will train you, forget it, go to USAT without some big name player. Last year my son at thirteen beat the kids up and down the matt and did not get a single point and this was at Colorado spring for the junior National team and I was told by Master Jimmy Kim you need to be in the limelight or just knock someone out so this year that is his goal just knock them out then no question about points and being the fan favorite. Sorry it is a kiss *** party that I do not play but will let my player speak with there feet instead.


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## KickingAngel16 (Aug 31, 2008)

I like the sport and traditional TKD. The traditional gets me to work on my technique and the sport gives me the workout. I'm also a competitive swimmer, so I became used to extreme cardio and everyday workouts. I may not be the fastest, but I enjoy improving myself and it also relaxes me somehow when I get a good workout. I have a long way to go in olympic sparring though. I recently started.


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## Shadow tkd (Aug 31, 2008)

My friend this is a very interesting topic and and excellent thread.I personally enjoy olympics style sparring and I know it gets a very bad rap it has been called a cheap imitation of a martial art but what people dont seem to understand is it is a martial sport it is an event with rules and regulations based on a traditional korean martial art. I like olympic sparring because it is a good way to practice the application of your kicks and in my opiion its just plain fun I actually go to the class that the lopez family go to so olympic sparring is very fun to me I dont understand why so many people dislike it though.


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## YoungMan (Sep 1, 2008)

When the USTU was on the verge of losing its IOC credentials and dissolving , my first thought was that's a nice start. The USAT has probably done as much to harm TKD in this country as anything else. Get rid of it.


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## terryl965 (Sep 1, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> When the USTU was on the verge of losing its IOC credentials and dissolving , my first thought was that's a nice start. The USAT has probably done as much to harm TKD in this country as anything else. Get rid of it.


 
agree to a point.


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## KickingAngel16 (Sep 5, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> When the USTU was on the verge of losing its IOC credentials and dissolving , my first thought was that's a nice start. The USAT has probably done as much to harm TKD in this country as anything else. Get rid of it.


 What is USTU, IOC, and USAT?


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## bluekey88 (Sep 5, 2008)

USTU = United States Taekwondo Union...the old nationa WTF TKD org.  Defunct due to corruption and flim-flammery.

USAT = USA Taekwondo...what the USTA morphed into.  Like USTU light with only half the corruption and flim-flammery.  Linked closely with US invovlement in Olympic TKD through...

IOC = International Olympic Committee...the guys who run the Olympics and decide where they're held, what sports are in adn the rules they play by.

Peace,
Erik


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## Kwanjang (Sep 5, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> USTU = United States Taekwondo Union...the old nationa WTF TKD org. Defunct due to corruption and flim-flammery.
> 
> USAT = USA Taekwondo...what the USTA morphed into. Like USTU light with only half the corruption and flim-flammery. Linked closely with US invovlement in Olympic TKD through...
> 
> ...


 
You nailed it Bluekey (respectful bow) :asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 5, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> You nailed it Bluekey (respectful bow) :asian:


He's good at that

Daniel


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## bluekey88 (Sep 5, 2008)

Aww, shucks.  I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 5, 2008)

The refs in the Olympics should have taken a cue from you, Bluekey

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Sep 9, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Sure if traditional schools had all the same tools and technology at their disposal that sport-centric "We build olympians" type places have. Things like access to the best sports medicine in the country, nutritionists, use of technology like dartfish, a staff of people that go around to all the competitons solely to scout and put together notebooks on fighters, and of course staff and athletes who devote themselves to training 2-3 time per day for 2-3 hours at a time so that they achieve a major accomplishment like making their kick just .001 second faster.
> 
> But once you do all of that, you have crossed the line from traditional to sport. Because once you are doing all of the above and so much more that I did not include above, there is no time in the day left for anything "traditional".


 

Man I guess Jimmy Kim had all that technology, wait no he did not he just trained and I guess the Lopezs had these when they where training in there garage. Traditional school can compete at any level I have three that are always there competing and winning 90% of the time. As far as nothing left B.S. we find time to work on Self Defense and poomsae's and the sport side it is called time management. See I have been in TKD for over 25 years we did not need all this special equipment we needed to learn how to kick and counter, how to react to the opponet action and the ever popular just kick the living craps out of them.


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## mango.man (Sep 9, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Man I guess Jimmy Kim had all that technology, wait no he did not he just trained and I guess the Lopezs had these when they where training in there garage. Traditional school can compete at any level I have three that are always there competing and winning 90% of the time. As far as nothing left B.S. we find time to work on Self Defense and poomsae's and the sport side it is called time management. See I have been in TKD for over 25 years we did not need all this special equipment we needed to learn how to kick and counter, how to react to the opponet action and the ever popular just kick the living craps out of them.


 
How many years have passed since the Lopezes trained in their garage?  Or since Jimmy Kim competed at the Olympic level.  Times change and technology changes they way people train.

Yes, you will find the occassional competitor that will rise to the top without the advantages of technology, but these days that is less common and I believe that in the years ahead it will be even less common than it is today.

Babe Ruth was a great baseball player back in the day.  Can you imagine if he had access to the same knowledge and technology that baseball players today have access to.  He probably could have hit a thousand or more homeruns even without steroids, if he had access to today's technology.


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## terryl965 (Sep 9, 2008)

mango.man said:


> How many years have passed since the Lopezes trained in their garage? Or since Jimmy Kim competed at the Olympic level. Times change and technology changes they way people train.
> 
> Yes, you will find the occassional competitor that will rise to the top without the advantages of technology, but these days that is less common and I believe that in the years ahead it will be even less common than it is today.
> 
> Babe Ruth was a great baseball player back in the day. Can you imagine if he had access to the same knowledge and technology that baseball players today have access to. He probably could have hit a thousand or more homeruns even without steroids, if he had access to today's technology.


 
mango I agree technology is important but grit and grind is just to me. I have seen people that can kick the living **** out of someone and not get the calls because of who they are and not what they know. In today game it is about kissing *** and making certain groups and people happy.

I applaud you and Samantha for staying with her dreams best of luck in the future.


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## mango.man (Sep 9, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> mango I agree technology is important but grit and grind is just to me. I have seen people that can kick the living **** out of someone and not get the calls because of who they are and not what they know. In today game it is about kissing *** and making certain groups and people happy.
> 
> I applaud you and Samantha for staying with her dreams best of luck in the future.


 
I am with you Terry.  If you feel you are not getting the calls you deserve because you are not kissing anyones butt, than you gotta tell your player to get out there and leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to who is the best.  Even if that means KOing anything that stands in front of you.


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## bluekey88 (Sep 9, 2008)

A sounds strategy.  One I plan on using next summer. 

Peace,
Erik


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## terryl965 (Sep 9, 2008)

mango.man said:


> I am with you Terry. If you feel you are not getting the calls you deserve because you are not kissing anyones butt, than you gotta tell your player to get out there and leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to who is the best. Even if that means KOing anything that stands in front of you.


 
Absolutely right and that is what we do best now a days.


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## terryl965 (Sep 9, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> A sounds strategy. One I plan on using next summer.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


 
Me too


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 10, 2008)

mango.man said:


> How many years have passed since the Lopezes trained in their garage? Or since Jimmy Kim competed at the Olympic level. Times change and technology changes they way people train.
> 
> Yes, you will find the occassional competitor that will rise to the top without the advantages of technology, but these days that is less common and I believe that in the years ahead it will be even less common than it is today.
> 
> Babe Ruth was a great baseball player back in the day. Can you imagine if he had access to the same knowledge and technology that baseball players today have access to. He probably could have hit a thousand or more homeruns even without steroids, if he had access to today's technology.


Or if the baseball season in his day had as many games as the modern season has.  Or bats made with modern materials.  Neither of which would make him a better athlete; one provides more opportunities to hit more runs and the other is an equipment change. 

Illegal drugs not withstanding, the biggest advantage of technology is the abililty to measure an athlete's performance to provide them with a target to reach.  But it is the hard and consistent training that makes the difference.  Technology does make it _easier_ to train smart, which is good, but athletes can and have trained smart without it.  There is no substitute for dedication and hard work.

A big part of why few modern athletes rise to the top without technology is because technology is a pervasive part of the athletic world.  You train with the best coaches, you will have access to tech.  And if an athlete has access to it, then certainly, it would be foolish not to use it.  In fact, the only reason that we're even having this discussion is because taekwondo has its feet in both the traditional world and the modern athletic world, thus older training methods exist side by side with modern ones.  Not a bad thing; a modern taekwondoin can have the best of both worlds, a very positive thing indeed.

About the only thing that you mentioned earlier that really would have made night and day difference in the athletes of old is nutrition.  Babe was not exactly a picture of prime conditioning.  Modern athletes have so much access to to nutritional knowledge that didn't exist thirty years ago.  Nutrition maximizes everything and modern athletes really do have the best in that area, hands down.

Daniel


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## Flynn_ (Sep 10, 2008)

Sorry, accidental post.


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## roymark (Sep 10, 2008)

It seems there was more fuss in 2004 on TKD being perceived by the world at large as an overly stylized fighting system without the practical applications of the other Olympic combat sports- boxing, judo, wrestling, ~shooting~ 
Unfortunately the lasting legacy involving "practicality" this time round is the action of one man against a referee.


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## mango.man (Sep 10, 2008)

roymark said:


> It seems there was more fuss in 2004 on TKD being perceived by the world at large as an overly stylized fighting system without the practical applications of the other Olympic combat sports- boxing, judo, wrestling, ~shooting~
> Unfortunately the lasting legacy involving "practicality" this time round is the action of one man against a referee.



Are you suggesting that had Matos killed the referee, that people would have more respect for TKD and see it as more "practical"?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 10, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Are you suggesting that had Matos killed the referee, that people would have more respect for TKD and see it as more "practical"?


Believe it or not, if he had KO'd the ref, yes there is an element of people who would be checking out TKD.  

Nobody thinks that TKD is full of people like the Cuban athlete who kicked the ref, but a lot of people (wrongly) think that Olympic style taewondoin do not kick all that hard; they kind of see it as (again wrongly) being like foil, where you really need only touch your opponent to score.

Daniel


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## mango.man (Sep 10, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Believe it or not, if he had KO'd the ref, yes there are a lot of people who would be checking out TKD.
> 
> Nobody thinks that TKD is full of people like the Cuban athlete who kicked the ref, but a lot of people (wrongly) think that Olympic style taewondoin do not kick all that hard; they kind of see it as (again wrongly) being like foil, where you really need only touch your opponent to score.
> 
> Daniel



Well, granted I was not in Matos' head, so I really don't know what he was thinking or what his intention was in kicking the ref as in, I don't know what outcome he wanted to see.

Was he trying to kill him?  If so he demonstrated an ineffective technique and gave TKD a bad rep.

Was he trying to KO him?  If so he demonstrated an ineffective technique and gave TKD a bad rep.

Was he trying to miss him but make a point?  If so he demonstrated an ineffective technique and gave TKD a bad rep.

Was he trying to split his lip to make a point?  If so he demonstrated an excellent technique with great skill and control but still gave TKD a bad rep as it demonstrated a complete lack of self control violating one of the tenets of the art.

Other than Matos, nobody really knows what his intention was and therefore nobody can truly say if he kicked hard enough, used an appropriate weapon or chose an appropriate target.  I do admit though that it is great fun to speculate.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 10, 2008)

I think that he was just bullying people around and throwing a general temper tantrum because he was mad that he was counted out.  I doubt that he had any intent other than to biarch 'slap' the ref with a kick.

Daniel


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## roymark (Sep 11, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> I think that he was just bullying people around and throwing a general temper tantrum because he was mad that he was counted out. I doubt that he had any intent other than to biarch 'slap' the ref with a kick.
> 
> Daniel


 
True, his rage got the best of Matos driving him towards the ref, maybe a culmination of frustration with the injury, a perceived slight, and the lost hope of fulfilling glories through training many hours a day for years.

It was just a little jib including riflery with the combat sports without intent to counterbalance the public perception of practicality towards those sports. MM, I did like your breakdowns of effectiveness behind the hypothetical outcomes of his motivation. 
Olympic players are at the forefront of representing the sport to the world every 4 years. Those that hardly follow martial arts might only have heard of this action from the combat sports of the 2008 games. Dedicated martial artists who practice tae kwon do (inclusive of traditional form and Olympic style sparring) will continue thriving to express the tenets of the art showing that the action of one man was really an anomaly.


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## Flynn_ (Sep 12, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Well, granted I was not in Matos' head, so I really don't know what he was thinking or what his intention was in kicking the ref as in, I don't know what outcome he wanted to see.
> 
> Was he trying to kill him? If so he demonstrated an ineffective technique and gave TKD a bad rep.
> 
> ...


 
That analysis was very amusing :roflmao:


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