# Pros and Cons of Carrying A Weapon



## MJS (Feb 28, 2006)

Looking at the Isolated Places thread in this section, I noticed that some people suggested carrying a weapon, such as a gun, mace/pepper spray, etc. to use in the event someone tried to attack you.

I'm certainly not against anyone carrying something with them. IMO, if you need to use it and if it saves your life, that is the goal. However, if someone was to carry a gun or mace, are these items going to be easily accessable in the event that you need them? Unless they are already in your hand, what are the odds that you're going to be able to be able to get to it, aim, and have it be effective before the attacker is able to counter anything you're doing? 

Keys are a great tool, and no matter how you're holding them, they can be effective. A gun however, is going to need to be aimed at the person in order for it to be effective. In addition, is the person who is using that gun going to be able to function under circumstances that are usually not covered in the average gun class. Low light, a ton of stress as well as a moving target, are all factors that need to be taken into consideration.

So, thoughts?

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Feb 28, 2006)

That is a very good question.  I have a conceal carry permit and do often carry but it really isn't immediately available most of the time.  I carry a knife clipped into my pocket that is easily accessible (I am ordering a good tactical folder this week).  I use it alot to cut things, so it would most likely be with me if I needed it.  However, the more I train, the more I see that, one cannot rely on using the weapon.  I think the weapon can often lure the owner into a FALSE sense of security.  More emphasis should ALWAYS be put on situational awareness, and good body skills, hopefully, everyone won't forget their hands, arms, legs, and feet at home when they leave.

 I guess that is a long winded way of saying, I am more inclined to recommend to people to not get focused on a weapon, train, be aware and know your environment (cover and escape routes). You don't always have to engage the enemy.


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That is a very good question. I have a conceal carry permit and do often carry but it really isn't immediately available most of the time. I carry a knife clipped into my pocket that is easily accessible (I am ordering a good tactical folder this week). I use it alot to cut things, so it would most likely be with me if I needed it. However, the more I train, the more I see that, one cannot rely on using the weapon. I think the weapon can often lure the owner into a FALSE sense of security. More emphasis should ALWAYS be put on situational awareness, and good body skills, hopefully, everyone won't forget their hands, arms, legs, and feet at home when they leave.
> 
> I guess that is a long winded way of saying, I am more inclined to recommend to people to not get focused on a weapon, train, be aware and know your environment (cover and escape routes). You don't always have to engage the enemy.


 
Great points!  Personally, I see more people with a blade clipped to their side, than I do a gun.  As you said, much more accessable, can be opened with ease, and is not something that needs to be held in a certain way in order for it to be effective.  Also alot more effective in close.

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Feb 28, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> As you said, much more accessable, can be opened with ease, and is not something that needs to be held in a certain way in order for it to be effective.  Also alot more effective in close.
> 
> Mike



At this point in my training and so forth, I think I prefer the knife because of it's multi-use capability.


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> At this point in my training and so forth, I think I prefer the knife because of it's multi-use capability.


 
Ditto.  Since training in the FMA's, I've come to see the blade in a different light. 

Mike


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## beau_safken (Feb 28, 2006)

Being that I am a silat player..I usually carry a Kershaw torsion blade.  Nice and quick like a switch but totally legal.  Not to mention all the above points but the largest selling point is not going the jail for brandishing a firearm even if its in self-defense.  I am now in the people's republic of california...So only criminals can conceal carry here.  But either way, a knife attracts no attention, no red flags and can open some taped boxes.  Also the knife allows for you to both inflict more damage(Open arteries, severe muscles, etc) compared to a gun.  Sides, the self defense plea will stick a little more if you are using a pocket knife even with the most liberal of judge.


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## SAVAGE (Feb 28, 2006)

PRO: its a weapon!

CON: its a weapon!

Remember as with all weapons do not pull it and wave it about...pull it and use it IMMEDIATELY!

It can very easily go from working for you to working against you!


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## Zoran (Feb 28, 2006)

If you are to carry a weapon, then you should train yourself to use it. Which means you need to practice drawing your weapon of choice.

For example, when training with your weapon, you should not always train with it in your hand. Just like we train to defend ourselves when we are in a natural stance (not in a fighting stance), you should train with the weapon sheathed. So if a situation arises, you know how to get to your weapon while in the process of defending yourself. 

As to gun, learn how to point shoot. Aiming will not happen if your are attacked.


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## bignick (Feb 28, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Also the knife allows for you to both inflict more damage(Open arteries, severe muscles, etc) compared to a gun.



I don't know if you've ever seen the damage a gunshot can do, but it's pretty severe, obviously, depending on the caliber.  

The real problem with weapons is that they may give the person an undeserved sense of safety, but so can martial arts training.  What makes a knife in the hands of someone who's never used one in the context of trying or practicing to hurt someone else better than a gun?  Both are very simple to use, stab and cut, point and click...?

I recommended carrying a weapon, but I also recommended putting some serious time into training it.  If you're really worried about your safety, carry a knife and a gun, and wear them so they ARE accessible.  Practice drawing, think ahead and save yourself a lot of trouble.  

Weapons are worthless, or even worse, if you can't access them and it doesn't matter what you are carrying if you are not prepared enough or skilled enough to use it.


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## Carol (Feb 28, 2006)

Con:  different legalities and licensing requirements in different states...esp. difficult for those of us that live near near a state line or two.  Or three.  Or four...

Pro:  Keys are legal to conceal and carry in all SIX New England states!  Woo hoo!


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## Cryozombie (Feb 28, 2006)

Accessable or not, having a weapon is a good thing, IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT.

If you get into a confrontation and cannot get your weapon, so be it.  Thats why we train without them, right?  But having it, like any tool, at a crucial moment, is a plus as well.  Ite a pain to pound nails with your hand, and its hard to turn a nut with your fingers... so having those things, even if you dont always need them is a good thing right?  How is a weapon different?

I cant really go into a list of pros-cons, because I think that can vary from person to person, weapon to weapon, location to location.

For Example. Ive practiced yanking my belt out of the loops in my pants, and can get it out _pretty fast_... So, I always have it, Pro, but a flexible weapon like that is difficult to use well without a lot pf practice... Con.

Someone else might be great with flexible weapons, but never wear a belt, or not be adept at removing theirs in a pinch... so the pro/con thing is reversed.


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## evenflow1121 (Feb 28, 2006)

I think one that can be either a pro or a con is to know yourself and what you are capable of.  For example, I a buddy of mine who is a martial artist in a different style than me, he is a great guy but a bit complex.  He has his gun license, but I fear that someone may tell him something stupid some day and he might just use the gun on the person.  I guess what I am getting at is your own personality if you can control yourself and use the weapon in a life threatening situation then sure that is a pro, but if you have a short temper then maybe best to not carry one.


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## beau_safken (Feb 28, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> I don't know if you've ever seen the damage a gunshot can do, but it's pretty severe, obviously, depending on the caliber.


\\

Well obviously, but my main point was just that people will more than likely not cry if your carrying or have to use a knife.


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## thetruth (Mar 1, 2006)

If you carry a weapon of anykind you must be prepared to be stabbed, hit or shot by that weapon.  I think I prefer weapons such as keys, a pen or what ever else is immediately available in your environment.  I don't know where you guys live but I don't need to worry about arming myself
Cheers
Sam


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## rutherford (Mar 1, 2006)

Last night, I knew I was going into what could very quickly turn into a domestic violence situation.  Before I even got into the car to head out there, I made sure to take off my knife.

I was prepared for it to go anyway it was gonna go, but *I* didn't want to have any part in escalating any conflicts.  And I didn't want any chance for me to have to explain why I'd brought a weapon into such a situation.

Thankfully, the person I was worried about was just as interested in avoiding problems, and I did have a good night.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 1, 2006)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I guess what I am getting at is your own personality if you can control yourself and use the weapon in a life threatening situation then sure that is a pro, but if you have a short temper then maybe best to not carry one.


That is a very good point.  For instance, my brother wigs out to easily and he just recently bought a handgun.  He knows how to handle firearms, he has been around them all his life and was also in the USMC.  Now he is talking about a conceal carry permit.  I don't think that is a good idea. I hunt with him often, go the gun range, etc.  But it is other times I worry about him.  When he talks about it, I passively do not encourage his excitement in getting it, by not entertaining the conversation.  He simply lacks the self control to carry something like that.


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## shesulsa (Mar 1, 2006)

Lots of good advice here.  

If you decide to move forward towards carrying a knife, gun or spray, you should practice with it - a lot.  If you have the capability of using your imagination to where you can visualize an extremely fast-paced full frontal assault on your person to where your heart rate is up, you're shakey and physically try to pull whatever your weapon of choice is and use it effectively, that's fairly good training, but you need more, imo.

Nervous hands and a gun or knife are a dangerous match to the carrier.  For the time being, using something you use every day (like the cologne spray we were talking about in another thread) or carrying your keys on a lanyard or cord such that you can swing them ... something you have in your hands a lot is what makes the best improvised weapon until you can put a lot of time training into an edged weapon or firearm or spray.

A pen is another good one - a steel pen carried properly.  Someone else suggested keys on another thread - I'll see if I can hook my digital camera up and post a shot of a good way to carry a pen or key.


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## rutherford (Mar 1, 2006)

For all you smokers, I always suggest a Bic lighter.  Held bottom up, it's very concealable and that corner is still strong enough to do some wicked damage.

To continue a tangent from my above post, it's important to remember that you're carrying a weapon both for deployment and for instances when just carrying a weapon will get you into trouble.  I'm going through a divorce right now (unrelated to last night's trouble), and twice now I've gotten all the way to the metal detectors at the courthouse before remembering that I'm carrying a knife.  This is a seriously bad slip, and thankfully I've never forgotten about it totally and had to have the guard find it on my person.

It's also a seriously bad idea to carry a weapon into a bar, and frequently a seperate crime all its own.


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## Cirdan (Mar 1, 2006)

Unless you know your life is in danger; I`d say that carrying a gun or a knife is a very bad idea. These are tools for killing, not defence. If you know you are in danger from someone, contact the police. I`ve seen too many people get sliced up by their own knives in a situation wich clearly could by avoided.


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## shesulsa (Mar 1, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Unless you know your life is in danger; I`d say that carrying a gun or a knife is a very bad idea. These are tools for killing, not defence. If you know you are in danger from someone, contact the police. I`ve seen too many people get sliced up by their own knives in a situation wich clearly could by avoided.



While I agree that your own weapon can be used against you - and knife training in particular takes time and repetition - and we've already stated such, I don't agree in not carrying a knife specifically for self-defense if you feel pretty confident in doing so and have had lots of training and practice in it.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 1, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Unless you know your life is in danger; I`d say that carrying a gun or a knife is a very bad idea. These are tools for killing, not defence. If you know you are in danger from someone, contact the police.


I disagree with ALL of the above.

1.  You generally never know when your life is in danger, until it is imminent.

2.  Neither is a bad idea, as long as you KNOW how to use them, HAVE used them, and WILL use them with restraint.

3.  They are not tools for specifically killing.  Knives are used for many things, guns don't even have to be used to prevent criminal assault.  Often times it prevents crime just by it's knowledge of existence.  Other than that, guns and knives can be a life giver just as easily as it can be a life taker.

4.  If you are being attacked (physically attacked, ie being knifed in the back), calling the police only means they can come mop up after your dead, faster!  Your safety and protection is YOUR responsibility alone!  They are not there to protect you, they are for keeping the peace in the community!  There is a big difference.  They are a reactionary force and they are not meant to be your personal body guard!  Make the situation as safe as possible FIRST, then call the police!  

EDIT:  I edited #4 because it did not read as I intended it.  The intent is if you are being attacked, defend yourself and get to safety then CALL the police.

When I say "you" I am referring to the readers of this post in general.


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## shesulsa (Mar 1, 2006)

Oh my goodness.

There are some cans of worms begging to be opened here, but let's not do that.

I think what most of us agree on is that IF one decides to carry a weapon that lots of training is required, no? Situational preparedness (mental) is required as well, no?

I have to say one thing about the police ... should anything happen and you fight for yourself and fail to call the police, this would not look good in court should the police get involved to any degree - if you want to press charges against an attacker, you're going to have to call them anyway.  Call them, please, no matter what they actually do, this is what they are there for.  Let them do their job.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 1, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I have to say one thing about the police ... should anything happen and you fight for yourself and fail to call the police, this would not look good in court should the police get involved to any degree - if you want to press charges against an attacker, you're going to have to call them anyway.  Call them, please, no matter what they actually do, this is what they are there for.  Let them do their job.


I did not mean to imply NOT calling!   I simply meant that trying to call the police while someone is knifing you in the back is not going to save your life.  Certainly, make the situation as safe as possible then call.  Sorry if my post was mis-interpreted.


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## shesulsa (Mar 1, 2006)

LOL!  No, I agree ... 

"*stab* help, I *stab* am being *stab* attacked"

... well maybe the ambulance could arrive in time ... dunno ....

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post, Bigshadow.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 1, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> LOL!  No, I agree ...
> 
> "*stab* help, I *stab* am being *stab* attacked"
> 
> ...



That's ok, I read it and thought the same as you!   I changed it.


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## shesulsa (Mar 1, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That's ok, I read it and thought the same as you!   I changed it.



:wink2:  no problemo!


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## Cirdan (Mar 1, 2006)

Really, if I lived in a neighborhood where I felt the need to carry a knife I would move as fast as possible. 

And I did not mean that you should call the police if you are attacked and let them collect your body. If dangerous people seem to be following you around in the neighborhood then you should call or consider changing your habits.

Thinking that a knife can scare an attacker away is dangerous to say the least. There is no "safe" way to use a kinfe in a fight. The road to becoming a knife killer is really short. And don`t even get me started on the psycological fallout.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> If you know you are in danger from someone, contact the police.


 
That makes me laugh.

"Im gonna kill you, you ****ing jerk!"

"What?  Hold, On, I gotta call the police."

"Oh, ok."

"Police 911, whats your emergency?"

"This guy is trying to kill me."

"Right now?"

"Well, no, right now, he's waiting for the cops to get here..."

Ok, I admit, thats a bit of an exaggeration, but lets face it, even in the best of situations, the cops can take 10 minutes or more to respond, based on how far they are, what they are doing when the call arrives, etc... And thats assuming the come to your aid in the first place.  Remember, the courts recently ruled they are not required to...  So Im gonna agree with Bigshadow and Shesulsa here.

It's only *MY* opinion, so I may be worthless to everyone else, but I'd rather keep my defense in my hands than hope that someone else saves me.  Part of that is training _with_ and _against_ the appropriate weapons.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 1, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> And I did not mean that you should call the police if you are attacked and let them collect your body. If dangerous people seem to be following you around in the neighborhood then you should call or consider changing your habits.


I guess I misunderstood your post.  



			
				Cirdan said:
			
		

> Thinking that a knife can scare an attacker away is dangerous to say the least. There is no "safe" way to use a kinfe in a fight. The road to becoming a knife killer is really short. And don`t even get me started on the psycological fallout.


Hopefully, nobody would try to use a knife to scare anyone away, if so that was not how it should be used.  No, there is nothing safe about using a knife in self-defense, there is nothing safe about self-defense (with or without a knife), it is risky and it can get very messy.  However, a knife can be useful, if needed.


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## Cirdan (Mar 1, 2006)

Agreed  
:redeme:


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## Bigshadow (Mar 1, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Read again. "in danger" not "being attacked". Awareness is the essense of self defence, not combat.


I see it now.  My apologies!


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Really, if I lived in a neighborhood where I felt the need to carry a knife I would move as fast as possible.


 
I have to hit on this as well, because its the #1 thing I am told when people hear how bad my neighborhood is.

It's nice to know you can afford to live someplace better.  I cannot.  However, I am accepting donations.


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## Cirdan (Mar 1, 2006)

Some interesting reading on the subject of using a knife:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighter.html


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## rutherford (Mar 1, 2006)

Yes.  Marc MacYoung should be required reading for anybody thinking about carrying a weapon.


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Lots of good advice here.
> 
> If you decide to move forward towards carrying a knife, gun or spray, you should practice with it - a lot. If you have the capability of using your imagination to where you can visualize an extremely fast-paced full frontal assault on your person to where your heart rate is up, you're shakey and physically try to pull whatever your weapon of choice is and use it effectively, that's fairly good training, but you need more, imo.


 
I couldn't agree more with this statement!  I think that many times when someone decides to carry a weapon, they neglect the fact that they constantly need to hone their skills with it.  As I said in another post, taking your training out of the normal relm, and working under some stress, low light, moving targets, etc. are all key things that are all too often neglected.  Of course, the same can be said about our empty hand skills.

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Yes. Marc MacYoung should be required reading for anybody thinking about carrying a weapon.


 
I agree.  Marc has some very interesting material out there.  He does a good job of showing what will/will not work.

Mike


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## KenpoTex (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Really, if I lived in a neighborhood where I felt the need to carry a knife I would move as fast as possible.


 This attitude is really naive.

It doesn't matter who you are or where you live, you can still be targeted as a victim. Just for the sake of example, I live in a small to medium sized city (approx. 165k ) with relatively little violent crime compared to other cities of this size. However on Monday at one of the local college campuses some guy dragged a female student into a restroom and sexually assaulted her. This happened right around noon (middle of the day, lots of people around) on a campus that's located in a "normal" part of town. 

Stories like this (and numerous others that we could post) simply illustrate the fact that no one is immune to violence. You either prepare/train for it, or you don't. I highly encourage everyone to train with and carry some type of weapon. Carrying a firearm can be a little complicated due to age requirements and legality in various jurisdictions. Impact weapons can be good but again, they're often illegal. Pepper-spray (or similar products) is effective against many people but not all (and again, not legal everywhere). IMO, knives are a great choice because they can be carried into places where guns can't and I don't know of anywhere in the US that bans them completely (other than airports, courthouses, etc.). There are many times that I go somewhere that I'm not allowed to carry my firearm(s) but I can still carry my knives.

Regardless of what you choose to carry you need to put in some serious time practicing with it. Not only just using it against someone, but accessing it both prior to and during a fight. The knife in your pocket or the pepper spray in your purse won't do you any good if you can't deploy it.

Edit to add:  Since this thread ties in with lady_kaur's thread I wanted to toss out a couple more ideas for items that you can carry for defense.  As I mentioned above, impact weapons (kubatons, koppos, etc.) are often illegal.  However, there's nothing anybody can say about a Super-Sharpie Marker, or a small flashlight (think mini-Maglite, Surefire E2-D, etc.)  Both make devastating striking tools and can be carried anywhere, including secured areas of airports, courthouses, schools, etc.  They're also about the same size as your average kubaton...coincidence?


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> This attitude is really naive.
> 
> It doesn't matter who you are or where you live, you can still be targeted as a victim. Just for the sake of example, I live in a small to medium sized city (approx. 165k ) with relatively little violent crime compared to other cities of this size. However on Monday at one of the local college campuses some guy dragged a female student into a restroom and sexually assaulted her. This happened right around noon (middle of the day, lots of people around) on a campus that's located in a "normal" part of town.
> 
> Stories like this (and numerous others that we could post) simply illustrate the fact that no one is immune to violence. You either prepare/train for it, or you don't. I highly encourage everyone to train with and carry some type of weapon. Carrying a firearm can be a little complicated due to age requirements and legality in various jurisdictions. Impact weapons can be good but again, they're often illegal. Pepper-spray (or similar products) is effective against many people but not all (and again, not legal everywhere). IMO, knives are a great choice because they can be carried into places where guns can't and I don't know of anywhere in the US that bans them completely (other than airports, courthouses, etc.). There are many times that I go somewhere that I'm not allowed to carry my firearm(s) but I can still carry my knives.


 
Of course it matters where you live. If you "must" arm yourself with lethal weapons in a peaceful community that`s just sheer paranoia or "the seventeen uzi wielding ninja syndrome." Honing your awareness and practice running are much better self defense than training with knives. 
No training in the world will prepare you for stabbing another person.


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## shesulsa (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Of course it matters where you live. If you "must" arm yourself with lethal weapons in a peaceful community that`s just sheer paranoia or "the seventeen uzi wielding ninja syndrome." Honing your awareness and practice running are much better self defense than training with knives.
> No training in the world will prepare you for stabbing another person.


While what you say bears merit, it is important to understand that preparedness is not paranoia.  Peaceful communities don't remain that way because people relax under those circumstances - that's like a hunter finding an untouched wilderness chock full of prey.  

Crime happens everywhere - EVERYWHERE. More in some parts of town, but it still happens everywhere. The unsuspecting victim feeling errantly secure because they are in a nice part of town might as well wear a large target upon their person.  

Smarts + preparedness does not paranoia make.  And as some on this board (Don Roley, are you listening) would say ... it's not whether or not you are paranoid, it's are you paranoid _enough_?



			
				kenpotex said:
			
		

> However, there's nothing anybody can say about a Super-Sharpie Marker, or a small flashlight (think mini-Maglite, Surefire E2-D, etc.) Both make devastating striking tools and can be carried anywhere, including secured areas of airports, courthouses, schools, etc. They're also about the same size as your average kubaton...coincidence?



Excellent suggestions.  Everyone has use for a minimag!


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> While what you say bears merit, it is important to understand that preparedness is not paranoia. Peaceful communities don't remain that way because people relax under those circumstances - that's like a hunter finding an untouched wilderness chock full of prey.
> 
> Crime happens everywhere - EVERYWHERE. More in some parts of town, but it still happens everywhere. The unsuspecting victim feeling errantly secure because they are in a nice part of town might as well wear a large target upon their person.



Notice what I said about awareness? I did not say "be stupid"

And oh yes, the minimag is great


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## shesulsa (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Notice what I said about awareness? I did not say "be stupid"


Cirdan, could you please point to my exact wording that made you feel I said you were saying "be stupid"?


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> The unsuspecting victim feeling errantly secure because they are in a nice part of town might as well wear a large target upon their person.


 
There is a differenc between feeling secure and being oblivious.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Of course it matters where you live. If you "must" arm yourself with lethal weapons in a peaceful community



You also make an assumption when we say "carry a weapon" that we mean a knife.

I wonder why that is... 

I mentioned training with my belt, and its no secret that I have a kuboton on my keyring, Ive talked about it quite a bit on this board.


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

The knife was an example. Insert gun if you wish. However I do view the knife as an extremely poor item for self defense since it does not let you control the situation like a gun does and unlike a club any offensive use with it can result in death real fast.

As for the mag-lite, good idea. How do you use a belt to any effect? Does it need a heavy buckle to work? I was slapped in the face with belts several times by some would-be robbers once but it only made me mad and I scared them off.


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## hemi (Mar 2, 2006)

Wow I have been away from this forum for a little bit, but I was reading all the posts on this thread and it got me to thinking. I have been considering carrying a knife for defense but came to the conclusion that in my case its probably is not a good idea as I have no training in combat use of a knife. But on that note that got me to thinking as a martial artist maybe a new one but none the less I am training in a form of fighting hand to hand. It seems to reason that a person with some martial arts skill would be able to throw and land some if not most of the strikes they were throwing. Also in the case of using a knife for defense as some choose to do in that case would you not have to be pretty close to the attacker to use said weapon? Could you not replace the knife with a stun gun? You have to be close with either weapon one uses non lethal force and would have much less serious ramifications if used even for self defense.

Just my .02


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> The knife was an example. Insert gun if you wish. However I do view the knife as an extremely poor item for self defense since it does not let you control the situation like a gun does and unlike a club any offensive use with it can result in death real fast.
> 
> As for the mag-lite, good idea. How do you use a belt to any effect? Does it need a heavy buckle to work? I was slapped in the face with belts several times by some would-be robbers once but it only made me mad and I scared them off.


 
Please take note of my first post. There are many things that can be used as a weapon. I mentioned a gun, knife, pepper spray and mace. Keys a pen, book bag, purse, etc. can all be improvised weapons. 

Regardless of the choice of weapon, being able to access it when you need it is important. A gun is most effecitve at a distance, although it can be used in-close. What we should be looking at is: Can we access our weapon, regardless of what it is, and use it effectively? 




> Of course it matters where you live. If you "must" arm yourself with lethal weapons in a peaceful community that`s just sheer paranoia or "the seventeen uzi wielding ninja syndrome." Honing your awareness and practice running are much better self defense than training with knives.
> No training in the world will prepare you for stabbing another person.


 
As its been already mentioned, crime can happen anywhere. Of course, there are areas that are worse, but just because a town/city seems good, that does not mean anything. I live about 20 min away from Hartford, CT. the capital city. The crime rate is much higher than the town in which I live. However, 2 days ago, a bank, just down the road from where I live, was robbed. Around the beginning of the year, a female was carjacked in a shopping plaza about 2 miles from where I live. My town has a low crime rate compared to a larger city in CT. but as you can see, crime can happen anywhere. 

Mike


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## Cryozombie (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> I was slapped in the face with belts several times by some would-be robbers once but it only made me mad and I scared them off.


 
If the person is only "slapping" you with the belt, they didnt know how to use it.  The deal is that "flexible" weapons are hard to use, but if you can use em they are good weapons.  Watch video of shirt techniques sometime and see what I mean...


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Can we access our weapon, regardless of what it is, and use it effectively?


The first tought of any responsible person should be if he is prepared to use the weapon and if he is ready to deal with the concequenses of this. That`s why it is important to consider the properties of what you intend to carry and if you need it.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> As its been already mentioned, crime can happen anywhere. Of course, there are areas that are worse, but just because a town/city seems good, that does not mean anything. I live about 20 min away from Hartford, CT. the capital city. The crime rate is much higher than the town in which I live. However, 2 days ago, a bank, just down the road from where I live, was robbed. Around the beginning of the year, a female was carjacked in a shopping plaza about 2 miles from where I live. My town has a low crime rate compared to a larger city in CT. but as you can see, crime can happen anywhere.
> 
> Mike


Indeed. The ultimate self defense is to lock yourself in a room.


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> If the person is only "slapping" you with the belt, they didnt know how to use it. The deal is that "flexible" weapons are hard to use, but if you can use em they are good weapons. Watch video of shirt techniques sometime and see what I mean...


 
I still got a scar from the experience but how do you do some real damage? What is a shirt technique and where can I watch a video of it?


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> The first tought of any responsible person should be if he is prepared to use the weapon and if he is ready to deal with the concequenses of this. That`s why it is important to consider the properties of what you intend to carry and if you need it.


 
Having an understanding of the laws would come in handy here.  




> Indeed. The ultimate self defense is to lock yourself in a room.


 
Well, I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I need to make a living, so locking myself in my house and never going out is an option that is not available to me.  Being aware of your surroundings is one of the most valuable tools that anyone can carry.

Mike


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Having an understanding of the laws would come in handy here.
> Mike


 
I guess it would, but I was actually talking about the psychological concequenses.

Some interesting reading:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/costknife.htm
(yes knives again. sorry)


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> I guess it would, but I was actually talking about the psychological concequenses.
> 
> Some interesting reading:
> http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/costknife.htm
> (yes knives again. sorry)


 
Thanks for the link. Marcs' material does make for very interesting and informative reading. I do have to say though, that you seem to be fixated on the knife, although I stated that that was only one of the many weapons available to us. We need to keep in mind, that regardless of whether we use a knife, a gun, a pen, a marker, or empty hand, any self defense situation will prove to be very stressfull and take a toll on us, both mentally and physically. This area...the after effects of the fight as well as the actions that we choose...is often neglected by many schools, but seems to be a big part of what the RBSD (Realtity Based Self Defense) guys preach. 

People join the Martial Arts for many different reasons. For those that join for the purpose of SD, should ask themselves, if faced with an attacker, bent on causing us harm, will we be able to bring ourselves to actually defend ourselves, even if it was to go as drastic as gouging someone in the eyes? What about a gun? Can or could we actually bring ourselves to shoot someone? Whats the purpose of having that gun if you are not going to be able to bring yourself to shoot someone?


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

A very interesting question indeed. The percentage of soldiers during WWI that actually fired their guns at the enemy was as low as *2%!* The others were either not pulling the trigger or shooting at the sky, ground or whatever. However they did help out by just being there for support and acting as cannon fodder. It was much later that the military managed to get this percentage up to a accseptable level (85%?) by using better preparing training methods. Carrying a gun for defense might very well cause a false sense of security, espesially for untrained civillians. Then again the threat of a gun makes it a good control tool since there is little defense against a bullet.


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## rutherford (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Indeed. The ultimate self defense is to lock yourself in a room.


That's not self-defense, in fact it's the exact opposite. That's called Agoraphobia, and it's when your fear gets the best of you.


			
				Cirdan said:
			
		

> I still got a scar from the experience but how do you do some real damage? What is a shirt technique and where can I watch a video of it?


 
For striking, most people understand how to crack a towel. It's the same principle. Strike like you're wielding a whip, and your belt will likely leave some nasty scars.  A buckle, or a chain, will shatter bone.

However, I far prefer to use flexible weapons to control limbs and deny access to tools. Tie up a wrist, take their space and move so that it's now pinned to their body.  Take their balance, and now they're on the ground.

I also use them to wrap up and lock opponents. Consider the simple example of wrapping your belt around somebody's neck and putting your knee in their back. I think you get the idea.

pesilat has some video of him doing some flexible weapons teaching in the Members in Motion forum.


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> A very interesting question indeed. The percentage of soldiers during WWI that actually fired their guns at the enemy was as low as *2%!* The others were either not pulling the trigger or shooting at the sky, ground or whatever. However they did help out by just being there for support and acting as cannon fodder. It was much later that the military managed to get this percentage up to a accseptable level (85%?) by using better preparing training methods.


 
I'm a bit behind on my history, but I'd be interested in seeing a link, if you can provide one, that shows the stats.




> Carrying a gun for defense might very well cause a false sense of security, espesially for untrained civillians. Then again the threat of a gun makes it a good control tool since there is little defense against a bullet.


 
Well, as I said in the beginning, a weapon is going to be only as good, if its able to be accessed in a timely fashion.  If the gun is tucked away in a purse or under a winter jacket, is the person using it, going to be able to access it, and apply it, before a counter from the attacker?  Keep in mind that this goes for any weapon that we may use.  

In addition, as I also stated, a gun needs to be pointed at the person in order for it to be 100% effective.  Going on what I said above, is the person using it also going to be able to function under the conditions that normally do not get practiced by the average person at the average range in the average gun class?  Conditions meaning: low light, moving targets, stressfull conditions.

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> However, I far prefer to use flexible weapons to control limbs and deny access to tools. Tie up a wrist, take their space and move so that it's now pinned to their body. Take their balance, and now they're on the ground.
> 
> I also use them to wrap up and lock opponents. Consider the simple example of wrapping your belt around somebody's neck and putting your knee in their back. I think you get the idea.


 
Great points!  I was thinking along the same lines!


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I'm a bit behind on my history, but I'd be interested in seeing a link, if you can provide one, that shows the stats.
> Mike


 
I don`t have any links right now, however the National geographic channel had a documentary or two some time ago about this subject. I think the title was "about killing" or somehing similar.



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> That's not self-defense, in fact it's the exact opposite. That's called Agoraphobia, and it's when your fear gets the best of you.


Agoraphobia or not, if you lock yourself in a box where you cannot be attacked, that is the ultimate way to defend yourself form physical harm from others. 

Thanks for the information on flexible weapons.


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## rutherford (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Agoraphobia or not, if you lock yourself in a box where you cannot be attacked, that is the ultimate way to defend yourself form physical harm from others.


But then you'll be without a life or liberty to defend.  A hopeless and worthless existence, with nothing left.  Physical harm would be a welcome change if I had to live that way.

Some people have no capacity for violence.  These people should not carry weapons.  Some people do have a capacity for violence, carry weapons, and have a willingness to use them (in only the most dire of circumstances, knock on wood, hope that day never comes).  

It is this second group of people towards whom this thread is directed.  People who know that situational awareness is first.  That avoidance is always best.  And that when the **** hits the fan, it's time to do something about it.

Have you read any Dave Grossman?  It goes well with the Marc MacYoung books.  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18410


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## KenpoTex (Mar 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Of course it matters where you live. If you "must" arm yourself with lethal weapons in a peaceful community that`s just sheer paranoia or "the seventeen uzi wielding ninja syndrome." Honing your awareness and practice running are much better self defense than training with knives.
> No training in the world will prepare you for stabbing another person.


Actually I'm neither paranoid nor am I affected by the "the seventeen uzi wielding ninja syndrome." I simply choose to arm myself as effectively as is legally and practically possible. Also, when did I ever say or infer that weapons could replace awareness and training?


			
				Cirdan said:
			
		

> The knife was an example. Insert gun if you wish. However I do view the knife as an extremely poor item for self defense since it does not let you control the situation like a gun does and unlike a club any offensive use with it can result in death real fast.


 Personally, I feel that if the situation has degenerated to the point where it becomes necessary to introduce a weapon, "controlling the situation" is no longer a real option. 


			
				2004hemi said:
			
		

> Could you not replace the knife with a stun gun? You have to be close with either weapon one uses non lethal force and would have much less serious ramifications if used even for self defense.


 I would not recommend a stun gun. They are not a self-defense tool, they're a control device. Even as a control device their effectivness is questionable. I've been zapped with one of the 250,000 volt models and while it hurt, it was not enough to limit my mobility.


			
				MJS said:
			
		

> I'm a bit behind on my history, but I'd be interested in seeing a link, if you can provide one, that shows the stats.


 That stat comes from Col. Dave Grossman's book On Killing. However, I wouldn't take it as the gospel, there has been a lot of controversy over his "findings." I honestly haven't formed a solid opinion about his stats because there's so much debate.


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Actually I'm neither paranoid nor am I affected by the "the seventeen uzi wielding ninja syndrome." I simply choose to arm myself as effectively as is legally and practically possible.


Well that is your choise. Since 99% of self defense is awareness and 99% of the remaining percent is knowing how to get out of any dangerous situation (run) I feel I need to carry a gun or a knife in my daily knife as much as I need a charm against vampires. I have however carried a weapon when I knew I might get into trouble.



> Personally, I feel that if the situation has degenerated to the point where it becomes necessary to introduce a weapon, "controlling the situation" is no longer a real option.


So when you pack a gun you only intend to use it to shoot holes in people?

Rutherford: thanks for the link. Seems really interesting.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Agoraphobia or not, if you lock yourself in a box where you cannot be attacked, that is the ultimate way to defend yourself form physical harm from others.


 
Lets keep in mind that we're trying to have a serious discussion here.  While you say that this is the 'ultimate way to protect yourself from harm' please keep in mind that it is certainly not realistic in any way.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Some people have no capacity for violence. These people should not carry weapons. Some people do have a capacity for violence, carry weapons, and have a willingness to use them (in only the most dire of circumstances, knock on wood, hope that day never comes).
> 
> It is this second group of people towards whom this thread is directed. People who know that situational awareness is first. That avoidance is always best. And that when the **** hits the fan, it's time to do something about it.


 
Thank you!:asian:


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## KenpoTex (Mar 3, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Well that is your choise. Since 99% of self defense is awareness and 99% of the remaining percent is knowing how to get out of any dangerous situation (run) I feel I need to carry a gun or a knife in my daily knife as much as I need a charm against vampires.


I definately agree that awareness and avoidance top the list of important skills. However it's for that 1% of 1% (would that be .0001% ???) that I want the abilty to respond with something more effective than empty-hand technique alone should the need arise.


			
				Cirdan said:
			
		

> I have however carried a weapon when I knew I might get into trouble.


 When you KNEW you might get into trouble? sounds like the types of places/situations that should be avoided in the first place. Again, [most] people who choose to carry weapons for self-defense are not paranoid. We don't see ninja assassins behind every tree. We just recognize that you can be attacked regardless of where you are. Just because there are probably fewer violent crimes in a "nice" part of town than there are in the ghetto doesn't mean that it never happens.


			
				Cirdan said:
			
		

> So when you pack a gun you only intend to use it to shoot holes in people?


Short answer, guns are _designed_ to shoot holes in people. So...yeah, pretty much.

Slightly less flippant answer: As I said before, if I have to draw a weapon, whether it's a gun or a knife, the situation is very bad. Basically, for me to deploy a weapon, I'd have to feel that my life/safety or the life/safety of someone whom I felt an obligation to protect was in serious jeapordy and that nothing short of an armed response would neutralize the threat. Once this point has been reached, there should be no hesitation. This is not to say that drawing a weapon automatically means someone is going to die. Theoretically, it's possible that they may see me draw, decide that they aren't as serious as they were a moment ago, and give some indication (verbal or physical) that they wish to disengage/de-escalate. Obviously at this point, any further force would be excessive. I'm not going to shoot or stab someone once they've backed off and raised their hands or started running away. In fact, in the USA, it's estimated that over 90% of defensive gun uses involve nothing more than presenting the weapon. For that matter, look at police statistics. Most of the incidents in which they draw their sidearms do not involve actual shooting (I'm sure our various LEO members would confirm this). 
So, how do the above factors "dovetail" into my individual philosphy? It's simple. If I have to draw a weapon, the person(s) who are the source of the threat have however long it takes for me to deploy the weapon to disengage. If they still present a threat once I've gotten my pistol to a firing postion, or once I have a knife in my hand (neither of which takes more than about 1.5-2 seconds on average), I will use said weapon with the intention of *immediately rendering them incapable of further violence*.

I've said everything I intend to say on this particular subject. Like you said, it's a personal choice. If you really believe that you can handle any situation without weapons: Fine, don't carry them. But don't be so arrogant as to cast disparaging remarks at those of us who do.

edit: rutherford beat me to the Grossman info...didn't catch it earlier


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## shesulsa (Mar 3, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Short answer, guns are _designed_ to shoot holes in people.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

That said, however, a person can sometimes be held at gunpoint as a control tactic, no?  Knifepoint as well?  The bad guys aren't the only ones who can/will do this.


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## Cirdan (Mar 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Lets keep in mind that we're trying to have a serious discWhen you KNEW you might get into trouble? sounds like the types of places/situations that should be avoided in the first place.ussion here. While you say that this is the 'ultimate way to protect yourself from harm' please keep in mind that it is certainly not realistic in any way.


 
This was meant in all seriousness. The point is that we all sacrifice some safety in order to live the lives we want. Arming youreslf is yourself is in many ways putting a cube of responsibility around you.



			
				kenpotex said:
			
		

> When you KNEW you might get into trouble? sounds like the types of places/situations that should be avoided in the first place.


Of course. But things are a little different when an unstable person in the local community has threatened your elderly parents and tried to run you over with a tractor. However the situation was resolved without much violence.



			
				kenpotex said:
			
		

> I've said everything I intend to say on this particular subject. Like you said, it's a personal choice. If you really believe that you can handle any situation without weapons: Fine, don't carry them. But don't be so arrogant as to cast disparaging remarks at those of us who do.


I won`t apologize for my views. Call me naive and arrogant all you wish. Let`s just agree that we disagree and leve it at that then.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> This was meant in all seriousness. The point is that we all sacrifice some safety in order to live the lives we want. Arming youreslf is yourself is in many ways putting a cube of responsibility around you.


 
I believe that you quoted 2 posts into 1.  Personally, I think that its pretty foolish to think that you can totally isolate yourself.  If thats the lifestyle that you wish to lead, then so be it, but as I said before, I think that we need to think on a more realistic level here.




> Of course. But things are a little different when an unstable person in the local community has threatened your elderly parents and tried to run you over with a tractor. However the situation was resolved without much violence.


 
Perhaps calling the police would be an option.




> I won`t apologize for my views. Call me naive and arrogant all you wish. Let`s just agree that we disagree and leve it at that then.


 
You're entitled to have your views, beliefs, etc., but please keep an open mind and be a bit more receptive to others that also have different views.  What may work for you may not work for the next person.


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## Cirdan (Mar 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I believe that you quoted 2 posts into 1. Personally, I think that its pretty foolish to think that you can totally isolate yourself. If thats the lifestyle that you wish to lead, then so be it, but as I said before, I think that we need to think on a more realistic level here.


I do not live that kind of life nor did I suggest that others should. However the statement is still true. If you think about it in a little philosophical way you might come to some interesting conclusions. I used it as a slihtly ironic reply to the argument that all places are potentially dangerous.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Perhaps calling the police would be an option.


An option taken but things takes takes time in cases of word against word and little hard evidence like this.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> You're entitled to have your views, beliefs, etc., but please keep an open mind and be a bit more receptive to others that also have different views. What may work for you may not work for the next person.


Thank you. I do try to keep an open mind. However what we are discussing here are serious things, not what shade of blue is better for the living room curtains. And frankly, some of the claims that has been made here are very much out of touch with reality. I did not indtend to derail the thread with my first post, nor start start an argument. I likely won`t post again.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> I do not live that kind of life nor did I suggest that others should. However the statement is still true. If you think about it in a little philosophical way you might come to some interesting conclusions. I used it as a slihtly ironic reply to the argument that all places are potentially dangerous.


 
Perhaps there was a misunderstanding, as that does happen on the forum from time to time. I guess I was getting the impression that rather than take the route of SD, you were suggesting to just totally isolate yourself, thereby eliminating the problem.




> An option taken but things takes takes time in cases of word against word and little hard evidence like this.


 
Yes, many times it is the word against word situation. That is the job of the LEO to sort out and come to a conclusion. However, it would be a good idea to have documentation of any threats, harrassment, etc. that you may get. In the event something did happen, the "My word against his word" argument would hold less ground on his end, as there would be documentation of past threats.




> Thank you. I do try to keep an open mind. However what we are discussing here are serious things, not what shade of blue is better for the living room curtains. And frankly, some of the claims that has been made here are very much out of touch with reality. I did not indtend to derail the thread with my first post, nor start start an argument. I likely won`t post again.


 
As it was said, both by myself and a few others. We all train for different reasons. Some choose to take one path of dealing with something, and some choose a different one. Is one better than the other? Depends on the person. Perhaps things were out of touch with reality in your eyes, but that does not mean that someone else may find that to be the complete opposite. 

Please don't let this stop you from posting. However, if that is the path you decide, thats fine.

Mike


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## KenpoTex (Mar 3, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Thank you, thank you, thank you.
> 
> That said, however, a person can sometimes be held at gunpoint as a control tactic, no? Knifepoint as well? The bad guys aren't the only ones who can/will do this.


 Yes they can be held at gunpoint/knifepoint. However, we're not cops, it's not our job to arrest or detain them; our job is to survive (preferably by running like crazy so we don't have to worry about using any force). Like I said, if they surrender, I'll prone them out and wait for the police to show up. However, I'm not going to draw with the _intent_ of "controlling" them, I'm going to draw with the intent of stopping them.


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## shesulsa (Mar 4, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> However, I'm not going to draw with the _intent_ of "controlling" them, I'm going to draw with the intent of stopping them.


And there it is, really, in a nutshell, now isn't it?  One should not carry _nor draw_ anything unless completely and totally willing and ready to use it and deal with the mess one gets to experience when one does.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 4, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> And there it is, really, in a nutshell, now isn't it? *One should not carry nor draw anything unless completely and totally willing and ready to use it and deal with the mess one gets to experience when one does.*


Well said.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 6, 2006)

Carry and train with a cane.

Check out www.goju-shorei.com or www.canemasters.com for some details on learning how.  The cane is an awesome self-defense weapon.

I've trained on the cane since 1998 and carried one with me while travelling in Asia and South America.  It goes easily through customs and they'll still let you take one on a plane.

Key advantages to a cane:

It's brutal:  imagine a jo staff with a hook on one end.

It's a little esoteric:  if you drop it, the bad guy is less likely to be able to weild it against you effectively.

It's non-escalatory:  canes are not perceived as being weapons.  You can take one to a confrontation and it won't put the other side on their guard.  In fact, people are _*more*_ likely to be nice to you because they think you're disabled.

Seriously,  there is no better weapon for 21st century America.  

Peace & Strength,

Jason Brick


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