# Square shoulders and hit training



## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Nov 10, 2009)

Do square shoulders in kata lend themselves to proper hit-training? Do the form requirements change with rank?


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## Grenadier (Nov 11, 2009)

Rolls_Royce_Phantom said:


> Do square shoulders in kata lend themselves to proper hit-training? Do the form requirements change with rank?


 
Correct mechanics are correct mechanics, regardless of what rank someone may be.  Squared shoulders give a stable platform, and make a good ending position, if one were twisting the hip while throwing the punch.  

This aspect of punching and using the whole body to deliver the punch, should never change with increasing rank.  There are only so many ways to throw a punch with good mechanics, after all.


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## jks9199 (Nov 11, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> Correct mechanics are correct mechanics, regardless of what rank someone may be.  Squared shoulders give a stable platform, and make a good ending position, if one were twisting the hip while throwing the punch.
> 
> This aspect of punching and using the whole body to deliver the punch, should never change with increasing rank.  There are only so many ways to throw a punch with good mechanics, after all.


True -- but sometimes things can get hidden as one advances and you learn to do something more compactly that was done with a large movement earlier in your training.

That said -- I didn't really understand the question here, though it may be simply due to it not being my style.  We do turn our shoulders -- and I've had to wind a couple of students back when they started turning too far...


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Nov 11, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> True -- but sometimes things can get hidden as one advances and you learn to do something more compactly that was done with a large movement earlier in your training.
> 
> That said -- I didn't really understand the question here, though it may be simply due to it not being my style. We do turn our shoulders -- and I've had to wind a couple of students back when they started turning too far...


 
I find myself in bag work and sparring with much more fluid movements. Same goes for field work where I mix in and shadow box on the run. I know esp. for Shotokan, the kata movements are very linear, regardless of what application (grappling etc) is later extracted from them and that much of the training is muscle memory for more fluid movements. I have been out of official training for a while and now doing solo training, so I find myself doing both shoulders square movements and an extra set of more forward striking (turning shoulders) to compensate until I get back. I do the hip movements though. I know that is key. That and keeping my base.


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## jks9199 (Nov 11, 2009)

Rolls_Royce_Phantom said:


> I find myself in bag work and sparring with much more fluid movements. Same goes for field work where I mix in and shadow box on the run. I know esp. for Shotokan, the kata movements are very linear, regardless of what application (grappling etc) is later extracted from them and that much of the training is muscle memory for more fluid movements. I have been out of official training for a while and now doing solo training, so I find myself doing both shoulders square movements and an extra set of more forward striking (turning shoulders) to compensate until I get back. I do the hip movements though. I know that is key. That and keeping my base.


Since I don't train in Shotokan, realize that I'm just guessing -- but I suspect that there should be some movement of the shoulders in everything once you get out of the most basic stationary punching exercises.  It's something you might want to look at, because as Grenadier pointed out, there's just so many ways the human body can move efficiently.  Different arts don't generally have new ways of moving the body -- but different areas and points of emphasis.


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes, you can imagine my situation. In the (my) Shotokan katas it is strictly important to keep the shoulders square as part of the curriculum. The same practice was utilized in my TJJ class as well. In both classes the sparring is/was looser. Now it is difficult to question the method of the square shoulders in Shotokan as power output/efficiency is the main focus anyway, plus what Grenadier said. I suppose I was looking for the connection or transition point. Then again sparring and kata applications (or fighting for that matter) are not the same either although a few emphasize kata based sparring in progressive schools nowadays.


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## Brian S (Nov 12, 2009)

Take a look at Lyoto Machida. I believe he trains traditional style shotokan and can do some amazing things against resisting opponents.

 I think standard training like what you describe is outdated (just my opinion), but I still get enjoyment from training that way. It's not that it is ineffective, but I believe there are better ways to get the same results. 

 You could go indepth with the kata and figure out where uke is in relation to you or what move happened before that one or after and get a better understanding of the movement.


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## Grenadier (Nov 12, 2009)

Rolls_Royce_Phantom said:


> In both classes the sparring is/was looser. Now it is difficult to question the method of the square shoulders in Shotokan as power output/efficiency is the main focus anyway, plus what Grenadier said. I suppose I was looking for the connection or transition point. Then again sparring and kata applications (or fighting for that matter) are not the same either although a few emphasize kata based sparring in progressive schools nowadays.


 
Kata is an excellent way to practice the techniques, using the most ideal mechanics.  Even if those techniques aren't performed in kumite as they are in kata, the body is still well-conditioned as a result of such practice, and the techniques used in kumite are going to hit with better accuracy, precision, and power.  

As a a result of "practical application" in kumite, the practitioner will get a better understanding of how such techniques work, and one's kata should similarly improve.  

The way I see it, the kata and kumite should help each other in a mutually beneficial cycle.


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Nov 12, 2009)

> Take a look at Lyoto Machida.


 
Machida has excellent tegumi/newaza from what I've seen (I don't have to mention his striking ability), although his karate is a modified form of Shotokan and an amalgamation with BJJ? It's difficult to say where he gets his core sense of balance and throwing in grappling, although his root started in Shotokan. I've always wondered what his father's stance approach to fighting larger opponents means as well. I was going to go on about Lyoto possibly trying to prove he didn't have a glass jaw by the performance in his last fight, but I'm not sure anyone trained on his level is that flirtatious with potential disaster in competition...?



> You could go indepth with the kata


 
I don't know all of the traditional kata, yet. I am (fairly) new to martial arts, (+/-2 years) so I am looking from my small window of experience that much of the rest of kata is similar posture-wise to the few I know. Most of my bunkai I have borrowed from Abernethy and some of my personal TJJ picks. His (main) base _appears_ to be Wado(?), although he examples from other styles.



> I think standard training like what you describe





> the body is still well-conditioned as a result of such practice, and the techniques used in kumite are going to hit with better accuracy, precision, and power.


 
I was glad to talk about this and see if anyone noticed the transitional gap and felt the same way. I suppose I worded the question wrong and should have asked "Does turning the shoulder take away from hit-training?" No doubt the shorter strike from shoulders² seems more explosive, it just lacks the same range. As long as I know I'm not doing things wrong as I lay down the tracks for strike variations in muscle memory, I can justify using shoulders² as my base. This has been haunting me for some time, and I've had difficulty being able to word it correctly. 

Much thanks.


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## Tez3 (Nov 13, 2009)

Rolls_Royce_Phantom said:


> Machida has excellent tegumi/newaza from what I've seen (I don't have to mention his striking ability), although his karate is a modified form of Shotokan and an amalgamation with BJJ? It's difficult to say where he gets his core sense of balance and throwing in grappling, although his root started in Shotokan. I've always wondered what his father's stance approach to fighting larger opponents means as well. I was going to go on about Lyoto possibly trying to prove he didn't have a glass jaw by the performance in his last fight, but I'm not sure anyone trained on his level is that flirtatious with potential disaster in competition...?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Iain's style is indeed Wado. He also trains Judo. Have you been to any of his seminars at all?


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## punisher73 (Nov 13, 2009)

Looking at Shotokan and it's foundation will give you an answer.

1)  Japanese, everything has a kata.  There is a "right way" to do everything properly and everything is governed by this right action.  This is in contrast to the okinawan way of doing things (strictly speaking time period when karate was introduced and training methods used by these two places) where in things were modified for each individual student.

2) Okinawan training involved very small classes and a "family style" training wherein it again was individualized.  Japanese traning involved large classes and a "military style" training where everyone had to do it the exact same way and helped to train young people for the military (remember this was right around the time before WWII when Japan was increasing her military).

3) -Do vs. -Jitsu:  What approach are you using in your training?  Gichin really focused on the -do aspect when he taught in Japan.  Therefore everything had to be pleasing to the eye.  Your arm would be parrallel to the ground, shoulder/hips squared to the front, your arm extended out and at a 90 degree angle to the shoulders etc.  It was meant to be pleasing to the eye and NOT concerned with combat effieciency when training for "the way of karate".

You can think of it this way, "-do" is an art form with combat implications.  "jitsu" is a combat form with artistic implications.  Recognize which you are training for and make sure your training matches those goals and outcome.


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Nov 13, 2009)

> Iain's style is indeed Wado. He also trains Judo. Have you been to any of his seminars at all?


 
I live in Canada and currently going solo, so it will be a while before I see anyone. I do have his Bunkai Jutsu book and one of the Heian series DVDs.



> Looking at Shotokan and it's foundation will give you an answer....You can think of it this way, "-do" is an art form with combat implications. "jitsu" is a combat form with artistic implications. Recognize which you are training for and make sure your training matches those goals and outcome.


 
Thanks for the history. Some of the info I knew, but have not pieced it together in that way, so it is interesting insight. I did not know that "do" training actually altered the combat mechanics. I thought it was just a "and don't be a pr1ck after class, don't kill your dog to see how it feels" type of anti-liability clause. (Without accusing Do practice of only having shrewd policy intentions) 

You pose an interesting challenge to the ego, because it intersects at the point of technique verses conviction. Do I risk going the do route and try not to think of Bambi whist tenatiously training? Or do I shed myself of my current patch that reminds of a trans-am logo and focus on combat semantics? I am a firm believer that conviction is the ultimate importance. I know you could make a martial art out of headbanging oak trees if you wanted. The question lies in whether I have seriously hamstrung my effectiveness for combat or competition while training in my "do" technique. I guess that is a question I have to answer myself as I continue my training...with help from the insight here of course.


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## seasoned (Nov 13, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> Correct mechanics are correct mechanics, regardless of what rank someone may be. Squared shoulders give a stable platform, and make a good ending position, if one were twisting the hip while throwing the punch.
> 
> This aspect of punching and using the whole body to deliver the punch, should never change with increasing rank. There are only so many ways to throw a punch with good mechanics, after all.


Excellent response, and my sentiments exactly.


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Nov 14, 2009)

So I am forming myself to be a Shotokan with a strong short range strike base who may or may not have long range capacity of equal effectiveness. I can live with that.


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## seasoned (Nov 14, 2009)

Rolls_Royce_Phantom said:


> So I am forming myself to be a Shotokan with a strong short range strike base who may or may not have long range capacity of equal effectiveness. I can live with that.


Two trains of thought. Long range is good for competition but leaves you vulnerable in combat. Most combat, of which kata was devised, is close quarter fighting. As was stated, kata teaches mechanics for power and balance, and discourages stretching to far past proper structure.


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Nov 14, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Two trains of thought. Long range is good for competition but leaves you vulnerable in combat. Most combat, of which kata was devised, is close quarter fighting. As was stated, kata teaches mechanics for power and balance, and discourages stretching to far past proper structure.


 
I suppose like anyone else, my martial arts study involves creating a hybrid approach so that my training is compact, and flexible to task. Some of this is for time, but another reasons because I envision training in explosive circuits for conditioning and repetition. I created this thread, because I _feel_ I put much effort into my training and want to discuss this issue, which began to plateau as an unresolved one. I had a feeling and I wanted to share this concern also for others thinking in the same line that are new to martial arts. I guess you could say competition is the outer ring of my focus in the same way that I enjoy a good tornado kick, (well outside of trad. Karate principle) but its flight is conservative in frequency.


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## Brandon Fisher (Nov 16, 2009)

In some of the Shorin Ryu schools you will see a slight turn in the shoulders but they are down and the body is rooted.  Shotokan and other japanese styles will be more rigid on the shoulders being completely square.

Some examples
Matsuda Sensei Shorin Ryu Myobukan




 
Chinen Sensei Shorin Ryu Oshukai




 
Miyahira Sensei Shorin Ryu Shidokan correcting and testing Kusanku Sho




 
Nakazato Sensei Shorin Ryu Shorinkan




 
Shimbukuro Sensei Shorin Ryu Seibukan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV_e...41378801&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=13

Shorin Ryu Seibukan




 
Just a few samples.  Search for Shotokan or other japanese styles kata on Youtube and you will see the differences.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 16, 2009)

Rolls_Royce_Phantom said:


> I suppose like anyone else, my martial arts study involves creating a hybrid approach so that my training is compact, and flexible to task. Some of this is for time, but another reasons because I envision training in explosive circuits for conditioning and repetition. I created this thread, because I _feel_ I put much effort into my training and want to discuss this issue, which began to plateau as an unresolved one. I had a feeling and I wanted to share this concern also for others thinking in the same line that are new to martial arts. I guess you could say competition is the outer ring of my focus in the same way that I enjoy a good tornado kick, (well outside of trad. Karate principle) but its flight is conservative in frequency.


 
In some Chinese systems you will see the hips and waist turn further, which translates into the shoulders not being squared.  When done correctly, this can generate a tremendous amount of power, as well as increase reach.  But that's the key: it needs to be done correctly, and the systems that do it this way are developed around that idea and make it the central focus of how techniques are done.

I'm just pointing this out for curiosity sake, not as an encouragement for you to do it this way without the proper guidance.  These systems tend to be somewhat obscure and not often available for most people to study.


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom (Nov 17, 2009)

It's all very interesting. The last thing I want to become is some hipster dufus, so I understand. Much to absorb here. Thanks guys.


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