# hi all couple of questions



## bradtash (Jul 16, 2009)

i have been doing muay thai for the last 6 months roughly and did hapkido for a few months before that.
however due to moving i am no longer able to continue these due to where i am located.
i have seen a wing chun school, i once did 1 lesson in this but chose hapkido over it as it was closer.

i have a few questions about wing chun,

first of all i have been told by a few people not to do it as it is only for slappers and not effective in real life. i know that there is great hand speed involved, but does this outweigh powerful strikes?
secondly i read somewhere that you need to do wing chun for 3 years before you became decent at it. i read that someone who did it for over a year could not "hold his own" against other fighters.
and thirdly are there many or any katas involved? if so are they like a dance routine? i know that sounds weird but when i did hapkido i noticed that alot of our katas involved more dancing moves rather then usefull techniques. i know that they all had a place somewhere but at one stage there was clapping and jumping involved.

i am not writing this to bag out wing chun at all, i really want to do it. but just had to get ease of mind before i joined the club. i read and hear so many conflicting things about everything in the internet so thought i should ask actual practioners rather then average people who are making stuff up.


----------



## Domino (Jul 16, 2009)

bradtash said:


> i have been doing muay thai for the last 6 months roughly and did hapkido for a few months before that.
> however due to moving i am no longer able to continue these due to where i am located.
> i have seen a wing chun school, i once did 1 lesson in this but chose hapkido over it as it was closer.
> 
> ...



Hey man, hope your well,
I would say you have 'heard' and have 'read', now is the time to see and feel for yourself. 

I disagree that its about 'slapping' as you put it and isnt used to 'hold your own' against other fighters, its a simple form of self defence with offense. We dont have katas, we have 'forms' that help develop self-awareness, balance, relaxation and sensitivity. Usually empty hand and weapons forms.

Dont choose the closest to your house either, choose what you like / would like from MA.

Some others will correct me if wrong  Good luck !


----------



## yak sao (Jul 16, 2009)

As with any MA, there are good schools/practicioners and bad. 

Wing Tsun/Wing Chun is a very effective and practical MA. I'm not saying this as a brain washed groupie. I had a second level black sash in Southern Shaolin Kung Fu with 14 years experience, and not to brag, but I wasn't exactly a slouch.  I then attended a Wing Tsun seminar to check it out and was absolutley blown away. The teacher, a 40 ish year old man, who looked like he would be more at home doing my taxes proceeded to make me look like I didn't know my right foot from my left. That was in 1995. I have been practicing Wing Tsun ever since and haven't looked back. 
As for the strikes, I think you will find them very powerful. In appearance they look like a flurry of weak strikes, but do yourself a favor and hold a pad for a WT/WC man and get on the receiving end of one!
I could go on all day but there are many on this forum much more articulate than I who can fill you in. Last word...try it!!


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 16, 2009)

People tend to disparage that which they do not understand.
Walk into a reputable Wing Chun school , ask for the yellow pages phone book.
Hold it up to your chest , then ask the Sifu nicely if he will do a 1 inch punch on you.
Then get back to us and tell us if it feels like a slap.


----------



## Tensei85 (Jul 16, 2009)

```
[quote="bradtash, post: 1199349"]i have a few questions about wing chun,
first of all i have been told by a few people not to do it as it is only for slappers and not effective in real life. i know that there is great hand speed involved, but does this outweigh powerful strikes?[quote][/quote]
```

I disagree with this statement, some of the M.A.'s that I've found that have great knockout potential in there punches are Wing Chun guys/girls.
I've personally experienced it, but as with any style there are good ones and bad ones, as stated above. 



```
secondly i read somewhere that you need to do wing chun for 3 years before you became decent at it. i read that someone who did it for over a year could not "hold his own" against other fighters.[quote]
```
I disagree with that as well, in fact Ip Man at one time said that if his students could not use what they learned in Sil Lim Tau to fight than they should start there training all over again. In fact we would generally start sparring at full contact but with gear after 6 months to a year of training.



```
[quote]and thirdly are there many or any katas involved? if so are they like a dance routine? i know that sounds weird but when i did hapkido i noticed that alot of our katas involved more dancing moves rather then usefull techniques. i know that they all had a place somewhere but at one stage there was clapping and jumping involved.[/quote]
```
If your studying a Ip Man lineage than most likely you would have 6 forms and maybe a few adaptations. 

Sil Lim Tau 
Cham Kiu
Biu Gee
Muk Yan Jong
Luk Dim Poon Guan
Baat Jaam Dao

These forms train concepts and core body mechanics that are important for a Wing Chun identity, but again the form's themselves are only part of the equation, you also have to integrate what you've learned into a reactional phase. This is where partner drills come into play, once you have a good Wing Chun identity I would say then start the San Da phase. Where you can let your expression come into play in a realitic but controlled environment. 

Good luck!


----------



## geezer (Jul 16, 2009)

Hi Brad. Good questions. Let me throw in my 2 cents. 




bradtash said:


> i have a few questions about wing chun,first of all i have been told by a few people not to do it as it is only for slappers and not effective in real life. i know that there is great hand speed involved, but does this outweigh powerful strikes?



A lot of WC/WT guys obsess about their speed. If they aren't generating good power too, they aren't doing good WC/WT. We specialize in "short power", but we don't use it in all our drills... that wouldn't be practical. But if the instructor and senior students can't demonstrate it on demand, head for the door.



bradtash said:


> secondly i read somewhere that you need to do wing chun for 3 years before you became decent at it. i read that someone who did it for over a year could not "hold his own" against other fighters.



Yeah, it takes at least a couple of years to use what is unique to Wing Chun/Tsun. And that is pretty quick by the standards of a traditional Chinese martial art. But you can start from day-one using things you learn to augment the fighting skills you already have. Things like a "centerline punch", "chain-punching" or the "straight blast", wedging, deflecting, and so forth can be great "tools for your toolbox". But, even in a fighting-oriented style, like it's taught by the EBMAS group, it will take some time before you can really put it all together and exploit it _as a system_.



bradtash said:


> and thirdly are there many or any katas involved? if so are they like a dance routine?



There are three empty handed forms and the wooden dummy set. Also, advanced practitioners may learn the long pole and Bart Cham Dao (Butterfly-Swords). These forms are short, and very unlike dances. They are more like a solo recitation of foundation techniques, and very helpful in developing basic structure and so forth. Compared with other traditional martial arts, WC/WT places less emphasis on forms and more emphasis on paired drills, chi-sau (sticking-hands) and sparring. It was designed to be practical, not pretty.

Finally, most negative stereotypes are built on a seed of truth. Visit some WC/WT schools, and if it looks like they do weak, "slap-fighting", if the students progress too slowly and it takes years before they spar, or if they spend an inordinate amount of time on forms... then it's not what I'd call good Wing Chun/Tsun. Hit the door and keep on looking for the real thing. Good luck.


----------



## sesvet (Jul 16, 2009)

Hi Brad

Common questions before committing yourself to an art. I read a book recently called "Wing Chun Warrior" written by Ken Ing about the experience of a Duncan Leung. It speaks about how he applied WC in a real world environment. I think it will answer most of your questions if you can get your hands on one and have a read.


----------



## bradtash (Jul 16, 2009)

thanks alot guys for all the help.
i should of stated what i wanted to get out of wing chun rather then come on an attack lol. i want to gain more skills than just basic punches and kicks (muay thai). i want to be able to to use holds, and gain great speed. 
i work in the LEO industry and would rather be able to stop someone with as little force as possible. rather then punching them or kicking them, i would like to use my skills to deflect their attack and control them.
the school i am looking at, the sifu has a great reputation. it is the yip man, william cheung lineage. 
thanks for the tip on the book, i will have a look around the bookstore today.
i wasnt saying that i belive that there is no power in wing chun punches, but a few people have told me that their is no power. i just wanted to see what you guys all said.
i will be training 4 nights a week, with the possibility to train 2 x 1 hour sessions those nights.
once i finish moving i will go down and have a few lessons.
this is the place i did my free lesson 2 years ago.
as for distance yeah i agree that i should not choose the closest but it is the closest within 1 hour from my house and i really dont have the time to travel that much.
and wing chun has always facinated me, the hand speed has always amazed me and i would love a chance to be able to get that fast.
thanks,
brad.


----------



## qwksilver61 (Jul 19, 2009)

As was mentioned earlier....some want the easy out,you are supposed to be learning Chinese combat,even lower level students should be able to hold their own if *taught properly*.in this manner; skill,speed then power,again train like you fight for pete sakes! also,once you advance,or grasp the seeds of Wing Tsun don't let yourself fall into the trap of "this technique or that technique" this is a flexible art,if you get  into a jam as GM Ting would say"beginning Wing Tsun completely empty your cup",and "adapt to your opponent" for me it's all about the total freedom and not countering force with force.I am not a big person but I have fought big people and that its part of the reason I chose this art,because once you begin to understand how it works "it works!" again if people are slapping each other(nyuk,nyuk,nyuk),you are in the wrong place.


----------



## matsu (Jul 20, 2009)

hey mate
 ive been at it about 18months and i think i,m pretty rubbish at it to be honest but i know i can hold my own against a karate guy or any other art of similar experience.poss not a boxer jsut yet
and i,m a slow learner!!

and in the street i would be very confident of not getting hurt.

there is no way once you have experienced a few lassons that you would agree with most of the crap you have been"informed" with.

have a go.... only you can decide!
hope that helps
matsu


----------



## zepedawingchun (Jul 20, 2009)

bradtash said:


> i have been doing muay thai for the last 6 months roughly and did hapkido for a few months before that.
> however due to moving i am no longer able to continue these due to where i am located.
> i have seen a wing chun school, i once did 1 lesson in this but chose hapkido over it as it was closer.


 
I have a friend who teaches Hapkido (for 30+ years) watch our class one time and he was very impressed with WC.  He couldn't believe how practical the art was and how physical we are in our training.  He said 'you guys like to rock and roll'.  



bradtash said:


> first of all i have been told by a few people not to do it as it is only for slappers and not effective in real life. i know that there is great hand speed involved, but does this outweigh powerful strikes?


 
The people talking about slapper have probably seen a technique we call pak sao or slapping hand.  It doesn't look impressive to train, but it is a very effective technique used to crash an opponents strong arm positon to strike or stop an opponents punch or strike.  When perfected, it can feel like an explosion of sorts on a person's forearm (the intended target).  it can be _very_, *very*, painful.



bradtash said:


> secondly i read somewhere that you need to do wing chun for 3 years before you became decent at it. i read that someone who did it for over a year could not "hold his own" against other fighters.


 
It depends on what you mean by decent.  If you're wanting to be an awesome fighter, I can teach you to be that in about 6 month.  If you're looking to defend youself during the average altercation, 1 - 2 months.  But if your looking to learn, know, and understand the system, truely learn and understand the whole system, it takes many, many years, maybe a lifetime.  You can't judge an art by a person who couldn't hold his own against other fighters.  That is the person's fault and not the art, he may not be any kind of a fighter at heart.



bradtash said:


> and thirdly are there many or any katas involved? if so are they like a dance routine? i know that sounds weird but when i did hapkido i noticed that alot of our katas involved more dancing moves rather then usefull techniques. i know that they all had a place somewhere but at one stage there was clapping and jumping involved.


 
This varies in some of the WC systems, but as a whole, most WC lineages have 3 empty hand forms and 3 weapons forms.  They are not like dances, or imaginary fights between you and an opponent, but something much like a dictionary or encyclopedia . . . . books of reference.  To learn how to do something in WC, you refer to a form which teaches you how to punch, parry, step, advance, etc.  The order of learning the forms may vary from school to school, but as a whole, they are pretty much the same:
Siu Nim Tao
Chum Kiu
Muk Yan Jong (Mook Yan Jong or dummy form)
Biu Jee
Luk Dim Bune Kwan (6 1/2 strikes of the Long pole)
Bat Cham Do (8 cuts of the sword)


----------



## Bondservant (Jul 20, 2009)

Ok.  So why not learn how to slapp the bad guy silly?  Al long as what you are learning can feel balanced and efficient in its logic than you can make good use of it.  Bottom line.....if the bad guy is attacked by a grizzle bear with one swat to the head or a swarm of killer bees....the bad guy is still dead!
good luck in your quest!


----------



## Tensei85 (Jul 20, 2009)

Bondservant said:


> Ok.  So why not learn how to slapp the bad guy silly?  Al long as what you are learning can feel balanced and efficient in its logic than you can make good use of it.  Bottom line.....if the bad guy is attacked by a grizzle bear with one swat to the head or a swarm of killer bees....the bad guy is still dead!
> good luck in your quest!



Nah, its "Chainpunch" the bad guy silly :ultracool

Just joking!


----------



## Glycerine0160 (Jul 20, 2009)

I recently became hugely interested in wing chun again.


I've been doing a jkd/kali/silat mixture for 18 months.
I was thinking next summer I might go to the Kali group in minnesota a spend a month or two just training as much as possible. 
Possibly even move out there, depending on how serious my MA training gets.  It's just my school isn't really that supportive to become a good MA. It's an good price per month, but we seldomly do even unintense sparring.


The last time I was interested in wing chun I kept reading upon arguments of how unuseful trapping is beyond the basic level we learn in JKD. 

Anyway, I am from New Jersey. If there was a good place to spend a month or two at a wing chun school, where would that be?

And along that line, are there any credible schools around the new jersey area?



I'm still not really sure which direction I will go in,    kali/silat or wing chun.   I have a while to let this harbor, I just wanted some incite.


----------



## matsu (Jul 23, 2009)

glycerine.....have you ever been tied up in wing chun bridges and traps?? its a scary thing how little you can move and feel helpless and yet they seem to be doing so little and wacking you so much for almost a nose to nose distance......just love this art!!
oh and i have to say tho-........i just love thats slip the punch and big slap to the ear thang!!! ouch ouch ouch!!!
and it comes from nowhere so they always sooooo surpised lol!!
matsu


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 23, 2009)

Getting off topic , but one thing you don't want to do is under estimate the force behind a slap.
The power slap they call it , I learned it in Kali Ilustrisimo , the master who I was training under said it was from what he called Phillipino dirty boxing.
Its done with the open hand very relaxed , in a circular trajectory and torqued from the hip like a boxers hook.
Just from holding the focus mitts for him I would say that it would easily knock some one out , if not nearly separate their head from their shoulders.


----------



## Tensei85 (Jul 23, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> I recently became hugely interested in wing chun again.
> 
> 
> I've been doing a jkd/kali/silat mixture for 18 months.
> ...



As far as credible I'm not 100% sure but here's a link to some schools in or around that area.

http://www.wcarchive.com/html/schools/wing-chun-schools-usa-new-jersey.htm

I would give it a shot and check them out anyways.


----------



## Si-Je (Jul 27, 2009)

Hon, there are so many "arguments" on the web about how WC/WT trapping doesn't work. Well, there is much more to wing chun than trapping.

look, in regards to trapping. trapping just "happens" with good training. you don't go into a fight trying to force a trap.

and as far as WC in a street fight. well. it takes a bit longer to learn than some arts. so does kali and penjack silat. sure you can use it if you have to, but to really be sucessful in either arts you have to learn sensitivity. And no one on a forum can tell you how good your getting at that. It's the internet, we just cannot "feel" you.

I'd say stick with wing chun for at least a year with a good teacher, then make up your mind. I say a good teacher, because they are hard to find these days, but if you find one then you'll be able to do all sorts of stuff.

If you want to learn Kali, hey, I feel ya! lol! I've been exposed to kali back in the day and it is awesome (not to be confused with escrima. similar, but totally not the same. escrima is longer range stick fighting and Kali is very very short range stick fighting.)

Sorry I deviated. I do that alot. lol! But my meaning is the same.  learn, and be open for as long as you can, and then go on (if you feel you need to) and learn another style.
Give WC/WT a chance first, and your teacher.

And don't worry too much about the "web thing", because if you go by that you just won't know what to do. Or who to train with. everyone has a story, a controversy, and a reputation. Make up your own mind by trying it out. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 28, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> you don't go into a fight trying to force a trap.


 
These are words of wisdom from Si-Je and really cut to the heart of the matter . They should be inscribed on a stone tablet and put in every Wing Chun Kwoon and the words recited ad nauseum.

The trapping is mainly a by product of the opponent trying to block or obstruct your strikes.Typically he will try and raise his arm to ward off your punch , you feel that your strike has been obstructed .

 So you stick to his arm with forward force and cut down on his arm with wrist latching to clear the path for further striking. Zepeda mentioned Pak Sau that is a very basic trap.

The main thing is you want to hit the person in the face , but people are funny , they don't like being hit in the face. So they will try and guard with their arms , to stop you hitting them in the face . 

This is where trapping and Chi Sau skills come into play, you will either remove the obstruction or find a way round it. 
If the opponents centre is wide open , or my strikes are getting through without being impeded then there is no need for trapping.


----------



## BlueVino (Jul 28, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> People tend to disparage that which they do not understand.
> Walk into a reputable Wing Chun school , ask for the yellow pages phone book.
> Hold it up to your chest , then ask the Sifu nicely if he will do a 1 inch punch on you.
> Then get back to us and tell us if it feels like a slap.



I'm reminded of an incident... someone came in and asked the senior Sifu what his qualifications were to teach. He answered "what are your qualifications to ask?"


----------



## Si-Je (Jul 28, 2009)

Trueblood said:


> I'm reminded of an incident... someone came in and asked the senior Sifu what his qualifications were to teach. He answered "what are your qualifications to ask?"


 
Seriously?! He totally said that to a prospective student?
I'm realizing I'm really blessed to find this new teacher. He had no problem full on telling me his entire lineage, qualifications, his teacher's name and time in art and teaching.
And no problem talking my head right off with in depth, educated and thorough answers to even the simplist of my WC questions about his style, lineage or his perspective on teaching.

Ask your teacher current or prospective lots of questions. Every question you can think of. They should be happy to answer and take the time to fully explain and share their wing chun knowledge.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 29, 2009)

Trueblood said:


> I'm reminded of an incident... someone came in and asked the senior Sifu what his qualifications were to teach. He answered "what are your qualifications to ask?"


 
Ha , I like that one .
Its not politically correct , but I like it.


----------



## bekkilyn (Jul 29, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Ha , I like that one .
> Its not politically correct , but I like it.



 I thought it was pretty funny, too. I was picturing this belligerent student huffing in and acting all obnoxious, "Hey yo, what are your qualifications to teach, old man?" And then being put in his place by the Sifu.


----------



## zepedawingchun (Jul 29, 2009)

Trueblood said:


> I'm reminded of an incident... someone came in and asked the senior Sifu what his qualifications were to teach. He answered "what are your qualifications to ask?"


 
Now that's funny.  You could also point to the sparring ring, ask them to step in and you'd show them your qualifications.


----------



## BlueVino (Aug 1, 2009)

zepedawingchun said:


> Now that's funny.  You could also point to the sparring ring, ask them to step in and you'd show them your qualifications.



I cringe at the thought.

Best guess, he became a disciple and was made Sifu in the late 60s, early 70s, and things were different then. Challenge matches wouldn't have been meet on friendly terms.

I think the quote I attributed to him was roughly from that period as well, and the story is told along the lines of what bekkilyn imagined.


----------

