# Mr. Trejo and teaching at the IKKA HQ



## kenpo3631 (May 14, 2003)

_Taken from the KenpoNET from Angelo Collado_ 

Its True! I workout at Trejo's house on Monday and Wed Eve in his garage. On Mondays we do Stickyhands variation drills/forms and technique work covering the belt material. On Wed eve we bang and run the line. We play alot, graft alot mix up all the technques and create some kick *** KENPO!
Trejo announced on Monday that we are officially meeting starting on Wed(Tommorrow) at the Pasadena School at 6:00PM. We will drill and run the line. I personally invite all you local blackbelts to come over and bang with us. We are supporting the new IKKA movement and I hope you will all keep an open mind to all the new changes.
Frank Trejo is now the first 10th in the IKKA and will be the lead player along with a few more well established Blackbelt seniors. Come one come all!!!
Angelo Collado


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## kenpo3631 (May 14, 2003)

He's teaching here Monday through Thursday, full time under the IKKA!! Mon & Wed. nights starting from 6pm. Tues & Thurs from 11-12noon, then 7-8pm. 


:asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 14, 2003)

Great, I wish him great success in the new venture.  I hope his expectations remain fufilled and he is happy with the new IKKA.  I look forward to hearing more.

Oss,
-Michael


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## Kirk (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I look forward to hearing more.*



Anyone have any idea when that's gonna be?!?!?

Everyone's known about the IKKA's "plans" now (everyone on the
net) for *months* now, yet there's all this secrecy and
mystery behind it by the powers that be.  Even Edmund, when 
asked just spoke of a "major announcement" .. but won't say
when.  He's treating the smaller schools like the ***** of kenpo.
I'm a bit tired of it... how about a press release?


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## kenpo3631 (May 14, 2003)

> He's treating the smaller schools like the ***** of kenpo.


 Down boy down


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## tarabos (May 14, 2003)

guess i don't keep up on all these organization comings and goings as much as i used to. can someone explain what the big deal is with this "new IKKA"?

this is pretty much the first i've heard of it...


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## Kirk (May 14, 2003)

*IKKA Answer:* We'll be making a major announcement in the
very near future, but what's happening is very exciting.

*Rumors I've heard all over the net:* One of Mr Parker's
daughter married a wealthy business man who's specialty is 
turning profitable companies into multi million dollar corporations.
He's going to attempt to do that with Kenpo, via the IKKA, which
he apparantly bought from Mrs Parker.  Ed Jr is the president of
said organization, and the Pasadena studio is like a museum of
sorts for kenpoists.  The new IKKA will clamp down on anything
American Kenpo that they legally can do, such as not selling 
Infinite Insights to anyone that's not in the IKKA, not allowing the
use of the tech names to new schools, etc.  A bunch of seniors
have been offered big salaries, and severence packages to do
what it is that they do, just under the umbrella of the IKKA ... so
the personal management of doing seminars goes away.  They're
going to start doing infomercials, advertising kenpo somehow, to
promote kenpo.  So if you have an IKKA affiliate school, and 
someone sees the infomercial and calls for more info, well they'll
give them the address to your school.  I've heard lil pieces from all
sorts of people, and this is the collective ... for some reason, no
one wants to talk about it online.


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *He's treating the smaller schools like the ***** of kenpo.
> I'm a bit tired of it... how about a press release? *



 First off, just who are you again to be ' tired ' of waiting around for the official ' opening up '?

 I have spoken with Mr. Larry Kongaika, and he says that though some of the details behind the new movement of the IKKA have already been leaked, they do not wish to make their official announcement until everything is set up and ready to go. Is that what you're tired of, Kirk?

 Also, I'd have a bit more respect for those who have been working their asses off for this art longer than you've even been in it, *especially* when you speak of Edmund. He is a good man who pours himself into trying to keep his father's dreams alive and in the positive light SGM Parker wished them to be in.

 I don't mean to come off as harsh here, however I would advise that you think twice before typing such disrespectful words on a public forum.


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## Kirk (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *First off, just who are you again to be ' tired ' of waiting around for the official ' opening up '?
> 
> I have spoken with Mr. Larry Kongaika, and he says that though some of the details behind the new movement of the IKKA have already been leaked, they do not wish to make their official announcement until everything is set up and ready to go. Is that what you're tired of, Kirk?
> ...



You have your opinion, and I have mine.  Edmund has gone out
to other schools and recruited them into the IKKA.  Yet others
get the "hold off till I'm ready to tell you the 'big secret' " routine.
He's a good man, open to comment, and criticism .. he told me
himself.


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *You have your opinion, and I have mine.  *



 Indeed. And openly-shared opinions should at least carry some respect underneath the words.


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## Kirk (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *Indeed. And openly-shared opinions should at least carry some respect underneath the words. *



Respect is an earned thing .... I didn't say anything about him, or
who he is .. just the way things are being handled ... and it's not
just him, it's the whole org that's taking this stance.


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## kenpo3631 (May 15, 2003)

I spoke with an extremely reputable source yesterday about this subject, and I can say this, without this push that Ed is making with his brother-in-law, the IKKA would be CAPUT!!! Yes Ed is approaching individuals to help draw back members into the almost defunct association. Yes they will be well compensated and why shouldn't they, many of them were discarded after years of  loyal service and dedication to Ed's father, however that isnot what the compensation is for...it is for there services within thenew corporation. Many are leary, and naturally so, if you knew how some were treated after Mr. Parkers death you'd know why. Let this  thing take its course and see where it leads. It might be a worth while venture!:asian:


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## jeffkyle (May 15, 2003)

But this sounds like a positive step in a good direction.


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## gravity (May 15, 2003)

I'm curious with the new improved IKKA, what do you all think will happen to the other organisations (WKKA, AKKS, AKKI, IKKO, LTKKA etc). I'm not too sure how different the material taught in these organisations differ from the IKKA. I suppose organisations such as the IKCA will still grow because of the different type of material being taught. Any opinions would be great.

Thank You Kindly


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## Kirk (May 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gravity _
> *I'm curious with the new improved IKKA, what do you all think will happen to the other organisations (WKKA, AKKS, AKKI, IKKO, LTKKA etc). I'm not too sure how different the material taught in these organisations differ from the IKKA. I suppose organisations such as the IKCA will still grow because of the different type of material being taught. Any opinions would be great.
> 
> Thank You Kindly *



I *heard* that they'll still be allowed to exist, under the IKKA.


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## jeffkyle (May 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I heard that they'll still be allowed to exist, under the IKKA. *



Whew!  That is going to have an impact.....


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## tarabos (May 15, 2003)

i don't know any of the facts with what is going on with this "business venture." that's what it's being made out to sound like. right now it gives me that feeling in your gut you get after you girlfriend dumps you. just sounds like a big mess, focusing so much on the business side of things. i really don't know what to make of it.


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## Kirk (May 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tarabos _
> *i don't know any of the facts with what is going on with this "business venture." that's what it's being made out to sound like. right now it gives me that feeling in your gut you get after you girlfriend dumps you. just sounds like a big mess, focusing so much on the business side of things. i really don't know what to make of it. *



I think it'll be either REALLY good .. or REALLY bad ... depends on
how they handle it.   The internationals would be pretty awesome
if ppl, because of this venture were able to put their politics aside.


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## Roland (May 15, 2003)

School or even Organisation 
curriculum is not supposed to be an issue.
The idea is to open the IKKA to everyone, including other Arts.
I hear there may be a special out reach towards other 'American' arts to try and get them on board.

I know a lot of people have been waiting to see what is going to happen for some time now.  Me included. And it seems a little scarry when we all hear stories and it seems like the seniors are disappearing into this 'new' IKKA all the time.

I remember when groups of school owners said that if Edmund took over, then they would either sign up or re-sign up again. 
He replied many times that he had no wish to do so. Obviously things have changed, all we can hope for is that this change is for the better.


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## True2Kenpo (May 15, 2003)

Fellow Kenpoists,

My opinion means nothing, but I do think that this reorganization of sorts within the I.K.K.A. will be for the best...  not just for the members of the I.K.K.A., but the entire Kenpo Community.

I feel that it is only a matter of time before we all are aware of the new improvments being made and like any matter of importance, information is leaked and is misguidied.  

Lets not make assumptions, but wait for the truth from those higher up in the ranks of the I.K.K.A.  I do not think they are trying to hide anything from anyone, they are just waiting for the right time.

In the words of Mr. Ed Parker Sr., "Patience is an Art that can make success pleasurable."

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh
IKKA


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## Billy Lear (May 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> *School or even Organisation
> curriculum is not supposed to be an issue.
> The idea is to open the IKKA to everyone, including other Arts.
> I hear there may be a special out reach towards other 'American' arts to try and get them on board.*



Then why call it The International *Kenpo* Karate Association?

If it is going to represent other arts, then change the name.

On the same note:

Why call it an International association if the other arts that are given special interest when joining are primarily *American*?

It doesn't wash with me right now. Sorry. :shrug:


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## JD_Nelson (May 16, 2003)

Bringing all these groups under the IKKA will result in a flop.

These groups cannot see eye to eye now, the members of these groups posture up like a bunch of peacocks now what would it be like if they were all were working together.  Granted the knowledge would benefit the students, but would the attitudes.  The backbiting would not benefit the students.   We all have heard this or that about him or her, and it grows tiring.

As critical of some on this board are of those who promote a noncommercial version of Kenpo, think about the fact they are wanting to save the IKKA the leaks have not concerned the quality of kenpo.  

Ask yourself why the seniors left the IKKA in the first place.  Was it because of differences in rank??? belt requirements???  A simple reason would be $$$$.   If you are the leader of an Organization (Business) the top dog gets to be in control.  Should have a top salary (within the means of the business).   As an instructor inside an organization with rank.  What happens when they get four X degree belts making different salaries.  Why is he/she being paid more??  Feeling will get hurt, egos will be bruised, and the IKKA will finally fall apart.  None of the Seniors look up to each other as they did Mr. Parker.  The respect required will not be acheived for the leader.  The driving force for the business may not be a kenpo practitioner, most likely will not be a Kenpoka.  If he/she is not a 10th, the current 10ths will have the attitude of I am a tenth, and I will do it this way like it or not.  I think this is called tailoring, I do it with my boss.    What about organizational dues.  The IKKA will not want to let the AKKI keep all the dues the AKKI collects.  That is a revenue source the IKKA is looking at.  I do not think the people who have developed these Organizations would be so willing to let their money go to someone else just because they are under the umbrella of the IKKA.So, the students dues will go up, tuition would could go up due to a monopolistic environment.  Competition is good for the consumer.  It helps us to get the most bang for our buck.  

I think it would be great to see the Kenpo community come together.   I would like to feel comfortable approaching some of the seniors and tapping their knowledge, but I can do that in a seminar if I want.  There have been a couple of Seniors that have allowed me to contact them and communicate with them.   I am greatful, My instructor knows about these times of sharing with the seniors as well but not ready to jump to the IKKA.  I think overall this will result in more hard feelings between instuctors due to egos.

Salute

JD


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JD_Nelson _
> *Bringing all these groups under the IKKA will result in a flop.
> 
> These groups cannot see eye to eye now, the members of these groups posture up like a bunch of peacocks now what would it be like if they were all were working together.  Granted the knowledge would benefit the students, but would the attitudes.  The backbiting would not benefit the students.   We all have heard this or that about him or her, and it grows tiring.
> ...



I couldn't agree with you more.   Mr. Parker was the IKKA, he's not here and to me, the IKKA passed on with him.     I'm certainly not going to spend my money on it, I know, no one asked me, but I'm sure they'll get to it, but I do wish them well in their endeavors if they think it's what they have to do.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JD_Nelson _
> * The IKKA will not want to let the AKKI keep all the dues the AKKI collects.*



 Though I understand that this is simply a hypothetical example, I do feel that I should make it clear that, to my knowledge, the AKKI is not under the umbrella of _any_ organization, it is a seperate family under the guidance of Mr. Paul Mills.


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## JD_Nelson (May 16, 2003)

XtremeJ........

Agreed.  The IKKA and the AKKI are two seperate entities.  I read this post a few times before I published it.  I wanted to try to be clear with my point and have some reasoning behind and why I feel this way.   I realize I am not the best writer by any means, and I did write this at work while saving the a SQL server so some of the  points may stray. My apologies for some of the grammar and typo mistakes.


Salute

JD


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## Roland (May 16, 2003)

Cause I guess that is where the 
announcement is going to be made.


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 16, 2003)

No need to apologize. :asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (May 17, 2003)

> Kirk:
> I heard that they'll still be allowed to exist, under the IKKA.



Well kiss my @$$ and call me suzy, that sounds like a great deal.  Hey why the hell wouldn't anybody want to do this?

Here is a thought for you, most of these individual organizations, leaders, and members don't like people from some of the other organizations.  So let's say you bring 4 tenth degrees under the "Umbrella" what do you think will happen?  Do you really think that there will be a melding of minds? Or that each one of them will teach their hardcore material at any of the camps or on the videos?  Hell NO!!!!  They will teach dumbed down material and will continue to do what they are doing now with their own students.  A new organization cannot change human behavior, especially in those who have had it engrained for 50+ years.  
You are correct trust and respect is something that is earned so other than the opportunity to toot their own horns why do you think any of these individuals would want to be back in the IKKA?

As for allowing other associations to exist... well that sure is mighty nice of the IKKA considering organizations like the AKKI don't use IKKA material and are thriving on their own.  

How's this for a thought Kirk, when you played pick up games of basketball, football, etc.  you and the other captain always wanted the best players first, so if you're still being left out in the cold..  what does that tell you? 

Just my thoughts and opinions.


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## Billy Lear (May 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Well kiss my @$$ and call me suzy, that sounds like a great deal.  Hey why the hell wouldn't anybody want to do this?
> *



Let's talk money for a minute... How much does it cost? Will it be in addition to your normal tuition and association dues? Are you really expected to pay all this money?

Let's Itemize this for Joe Average:

1. Normal Association Dues +

2. Association Dues Under the IKKA +

3. Testing Fees (where they apply) +

4. Certification Fees (Under the IKKA) +

5. School Tuition 

= TOO MUCH MONEY 

Melting Pot? Under the umbrella? How about... *I'M MELTING!*


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## Kirk (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Well kiss my @$$ and call me suzy, that sounds like a great deal.  Hey why the hell wouldn't anybody want to do this?
> 
> Here is a thought for you, most of these individual organizations, leaders, and members don't like people from some of the other organizations.  So let's say you bring 4 tenth degrees under the "Umbrella" what do you think will happen?  Do you really think that there will be a melding of minds? Or that each one of them will teach their hardcore material at any of the camps or on the videos?  Hell NO!!!!  They will teach dumbed down material and will continue to do what they are doing now with their own students.  A new organization cannot change human behavior, especially in those who have had it engrained for 50+ years.
> ...



If they're getting paid a lot, and allowed to continue teaching the material as they always have, it works fine for them.  Hard to pass up.  But will they be allowed to do seminars in non IKKA schools?  Doubtful.  

If you're insinuating that my school sucks because they haven't been approached yet, go ahead with that feeling.  My school isn't a place where someone like you should EVER show up at.  Sit back and feel happy with yourself and that little comment.


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## Seig (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> *Cause I guess that is where the
> announcement is going to be made. *


Roland,
Tess and I are taking a contingency, Mr. C is supposed to be there with us.  We will relay as much as we can when we get back.  Kaith, have you thought about contacting Ms. Cogliandrio and getting some MT stuff there?


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## Seig (May 18, 2003)

Kirk, Cool down Fido.  I read his post and don't think he was slamming YOUR SCHOOL.  I interpreted the statement to mean that the IKKA is not approaching people like, you, me and others that were not a driving force within the organization at the time of Mr. Parker's death.


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## Kirk (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Kirk, Cool down Fido.  I read his post and don't think he was slamming YOUR SCHOOL.  I interpreted the statement to mean that the IKKA is not approaching people like, you, me and others that were not a driving force within the organization at the time of Mr. Parker's death. *



You should read the entire thread.  I made mention of how some schools have been approached, and others are still being kept in the dark of the "mystery" behind this ... when everybody already knows.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin_
> Just a note that Forest City Martial Arts Academy is now the IKKA HQ for Canada.
> 
> Call for more details.


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## RCastillo (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tarabos _
> *guess i don't keep up on all these organization comings and goings as much as i used to. can someone explain what the big deal is with this "new IKKA"?
> 
> this is pretty much the first i've heard of it... *[/QUOTE
> ...


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## tarabos (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Tarabos, that dude is way too ugly, bring back the "Big Dog!" *



hey...all the sudden you love triumph?:rofl:


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## RCastillo (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tarabos _
> *hey...all the sudden you love triumph?:rofl:
> 
> 
> ...



It's either Triumph, or Jim Kelly! That dude is too scary!


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *If you're insinuating that my school sucks because they haven't been approached yet, go ahead with that feeling.  My school isn't a place where someone like you should EVER show up at.  Sit back and feel happy with yourself and that little comment. *



 I saw no such insinuation either ( and yes, I've read the entire thread several times ). I think the point KenpoYahoo was trying to make is, they're going to go to those who they believe will be valuable assets to the organization. Perhaps if you weren't being so defensive, you'd understand that. 

 However, I'm pretty sure he'd have no hesitation about visiting your school. Hell, I'd go with him, to stop by and say HI.


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## Kirk (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *I saw no such insinuation either ( and yes, I've read the entire thread several times ). I think the point KenpoYahoo was trying to make is, they're going to go to those who they believe will be valuable assets to the organization. Perhaps if you weren't being so defensive, you'd understand that. *



Notice, I said _*IF*_ .


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Notice, I said IF . *



 I did.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (May 19, 2003)

Well, once again words on a computer screen are misconstrued, but hell I'd love to come down and see why I shouldn't ever come to a school like yours.  I have to admit that I'm curious what some guy, who throws out open challenges on an internet forum, is capable of doing.  Should be interesting.

Scheduling right now is a little rough, but I'll be in that area about mid fall, any earlier and the Riverwalk is just a walk along sauna.  Oh yeah.. You can count on me contacting you. 


Extreme_J
Hey man, you gonna make to Illinois, Salt Lake, or Vegas this Year?


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## Kirk (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *I have to admit that I'm curious what some guy, who throws out open challenges on an internet forum, is capable of doing.   *



Where did I throw out a challenge?


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Extreme_J
> Hey man, you gonna make to Illinois, Salt Lake, or Vegas this Year? *



 Vegas and SL I'm too poor for right now ( moving to SLC in three years, can't wait ). HOWEVER, I'll definately be in Illinois ( going up for my second....nervous as Hell....but pumped for a kick-rear day of seminars from The Man!!! )! I'll be the big guy with the ( nearly ) shaved head in Rick Brumby's group. Cya there!!


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## Kirk (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Well, once again words on a computer screen are misconstrued*



And you honestely can't see how that could happen with this comment?



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> How's this for a thought Kirk, when you played pick up
> games of basketball, football, etc. you and the other captain
> always wanted the best players first, so if you're still being left
> out in the cold.. what does that tell you?



Yet somehow you were able to pull a challenge out of my words 
to you somewhere???


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> * My school isn't a place where someone like you should EVER show up at.  *



 Easily sounds like one there, Kirk. So, what night would be best for guys like us to show up on?


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## Kirk (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *Easily sounds like one there, Kirk. So, what night would be best for guys like us to show up on?  *



Well I was accused of misconstruing a post, and now I throw it right back ..the point I was trying to make, was if ... IF IF IF IF IF
he was insinuating that my school was "last to be picked" because they were choosing "the best players first" and that my school was terrible, then it's fine with me that you and he believe that, and it's not a school you'd want to visit.


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## Michael Billings (May 19, 2003)

XtremeJ_AKKI, I am sure Mr. Mills would not appreciate the threatening way you are coming across to a purple belt.  I sure don't.   I know you were not insulting his school, Mr. Abernathy or Huk ... but one of you guys needs to play nice.  

KIRK, see where your "If's" get you?  

Come on, respect all around guys!  Not threats, vieled or otherwise!  

Oss,
-Michael


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *XtremeJ_AKKI, I am sure Mr. Mills would not appreciate the threatening way you are coming across to a purple belt.   *



 Threats? :rofl: 

 Mr. Billings, I don't need to make threats towards anyone, he simply implied that his school isn't the type of place that KenpoYahoo would want to show up at, and that statement alone piqued my curiousity. 

 As for threats....if I had to resort to making any, they definately wouldn't be veiled. I grew up in the inner city around gangbangers and pushers, threats weren't something we put much stock in. 

 ( kinda sucks knowing that my words are now being misconstrued as ' threats ', but I suppose it happens, this being the internet and all, devoid of communication characteristics such as tone of voice, facial expression, etc.... )


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 20, 2003)

On a side note, though I am a proud member of the AKKI, my opinions reflect my own viewpoints, and not those of Mr. Mills or the AKKI. Just that I'd remind everyone of that, since we seem to think I'm threatening people and all. 

 Besides, Kirk may be a purple belt, but he stands and and puts his cojones out there on the chopping board with the rest of us, so I think he's up for any verbal exchange.  

 IN all seriousness, no one's threatened anyone, no one's challenged anyone, and to my knowledge, this string was still pretty light-hearted in it's discussions and exchanges. :asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 20, 2003)

I understand, Kirk puts 'em out there ... and they get squished, stomped, chopped, puree'ed, and smashed on a regular basis.  But you gotta give him, he says what is on his mind.  It just does not always come out the way he intends.

His school is great as is his instructor and lineage.  It got personal when he said his school was not the kind of place KY would want to show up.  I see how that could come across bad, but it went from bad to worse by saying yall would "show up."  

The first comment I saw that may have set Kirk off was the *



			How's this for a thought Kirk, when you played pick up games of basketball, football, etc. you and the other captain always wanted the best players first, so if you're still being left out in the cold.. what does that tell you?
		
Click to expand...

* In the true spirit of his school, yall would be welcome and have a great  Kenpo workout.  No challenge, no intimidation.  

Kirk can stand up for himself, as can you, but I did not want anyone thinking Kirk's school would be the kind that issued or accepted challenges.  That is just so far from reality as to be ridiculous.  His instructor is a great guy who comes to Kenpo after a good career as a TKD black belt, with lots of fighting experience.  

He is entirely too good natured to produce students like Kirk ... just kidding Kirk.  Your attitude was great this weekend with Sigung LaBounty as was everyone in your school.  

Sorry for the interference, but in re-reading the thread, it still seemed threatening or intimidating to me.  I will back out now and let the "good natured" posturing and kidding get back to what it was.

Oss,
-Michael:asian:


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## roryneil (May 20, 2003)

How can this AKKI work if this THREAD doesn't even "get along" ??


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## roryneil (May 20, 2003)

OOPS I meant IKKA


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## JD_Nelson (May 20, 2003)

> How can this AKKI (IKKA NOTED)work if this THREAD doesn't even "get along" ??
> OOPS I meant IKKA




Perfect Example

JD


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 20, 2003)

Thanks for understanding where I was coming from. :asian:


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## Billy Lear (May 21, 2003)

Kirk,

You're a good man. You definately have the courage to stand up for yourself. Especially when it may be unpopular to voice your opinion. Sometimes you can jump the gun, which is not unusual for a purple belt in American Kenpo. My advice is not to get your undies in a bunch every time someone disagrees with you about something.

Your friend,
Billy


XtremeJ_AKKI,

Your post did seem a little rash, and Kenpo Yahoo did come accross with a slight condescending tone when giving his analogy for the first choice picks for the IKKA. I'm glad to see that it isn't anything that's gone over board. Kirk is a good guy. I talk to him on the phone frequently. You've just gotta understand that he's gung-ho about kenpo right now, just like many are when they are new to the art.

Sincerely,
Billy


Kenpo Yahoo,

Ed Parker Jr. is working things intelligently right now. He going out and recruiting the First Generation crowd, at the moment, in hopes of getting their students to join under them. Not a bad move if you look at it from a business stand point. If he sells Mr. Planas on the new IKKA, he saves himself alot of time and money in the process of having to recruit all of the other people under Huk. Because eventually Huk will sell them on the idea at his next seminar or something. In effect it is working like a trickle down or pyramid scheme.

In addition, Edmund is not choosing the best players first. He's trying to corner the market on the seniors in our art before going to the little guy. All in all I think this is the best way to do things. If Edmund were taking students out from under the seniors, all hell would break loose! Catch my drift?

Just a thought,
Billy Lear, UKS


P.S. For every one else... Not everyone is going to join the IKKA, and we don't have to all be IKKA members to get along. Let's look past our differences and be men for a change. :asian:


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## cdhall (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by roryneil _
> *How can this AKKI work if this THREAD doesn't even "get along" ?? *



That is not a good analogy.

It would work for the same reason that while fights often break out at lunch in Junior High, they don't break out so often at lunch at work outside of Junior High.

It could also work because anyone who joined would want to make it work.

Too many people say and do things on the Internet/forums that they KNOW they would Never say or do in public.

I bet you that some of what has been posted  on here and elsewhere on the Internet would never be said to the face of most of the people who get speculated about.

Remember where you are.  Martial Talk used to be a refreshing place to gather some news and insights but it seems to me that in the past few months it has become more of a place to "stir the pot."

Also, anyone who is trying to detract from what the IKKA may be attempting, when they are not in full possession of any/all of the facts is very clearly NOT being constructive and seems to be taking an opportunity to kill the bably while it is sleeping.

I think it would be best to either be positive or be quiet.  They will make an announcement when they are ready and then the merits can be debated.

I would also think that the camp in July is called a Homecoming for a reason.  (Sorry, my Macintosh won't let me get the URL for the flier... it just opens in Acrobat reader in Explorer...)

An announcement may be made there as well.  I would think that anyone who is trying to frustrate this effort must not have enough respect for the teachers listed for this event who must be going either because they are 1) Joining, 2) Investigating, and/or 3) Supporting this effort.

I think I'm going to the Homecoming Camp, I may have something else to say when I get back.


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## Billy Lear (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> Also, anyone who is trying to detract from what the IKKA may be attempting, when they are not in full possession of any/all of the facts is very clearly NOT being constructive and seems to be taking an opportunity to kill the bably while it is sleeping.*



I don't think anybody is trying to kill the I.K.K.A. here. People are curious about the changes that this may or may not have on their studios. Change can be a scary thing, and people need to be allowed to voice their oppinions and concearns.



> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> I think it would be best to either be positive or be quiet.  They will make an announcement when they are ready and then the merits can be debated.*



Aside from the positive things that can come about from the "rebirth" of the I.K.K.A., there are many negative things that can come about too. I think it is natural to have issues with the silent manner in which things are happening right now, although I can understand that it is necessary from a business perspective.

Doug,

This is an internet forum. People need to be able to share ideas, regardless of weather or not those ideas are popular. While I agree that personal attacks don't belong here, I think that negative and positive feed back on current issues should be welcomed.

Your brother In Kenpo,
Billy :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (May 21, 2003)

This thread is about power and money, ain't it?

You know, when I read through this thread this morning, my first thought was: thank ahura-mazda that I know enough at this point that I can keep training in my back yard,  and keep learning the myriad of things I have yet to learn, and teach a few students even, without having to belong to SPECTRE...UNCLE... whatever it is.

Sorry, and all respect to Mr. Trejo, but include me out. Especially after the call for everybody who can't write something positive to remain absolutely silent.


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## cdhall (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Sorry, and all respect to Mr. Trejo, but include me out. Especially after the call for everybody who can't write something positive to remain absolutely silent. *



Hey, so why is OK for others to post negative speculation and gossip and I can't say something founded in logic?  What are the facts?  There are not many, so debating them is almost pointless.  The ones I know of are these:
1. Mr. Trejo is in the IKKA
2. There is a Homecoming Camp this summer and a lot of high-profile people are teaching
3. Not much else has been confirmed as a fact

I think all of that is good news.  Do they require me to wear Pink Speedos to Banquets if I join?  I should wait to hear that before I react to it.  If they want my opinion they'll ask.  Otherwise why waste energy speculating?  Just a thought.  I understand the potential value of speculating as much as anyone else, but the IKKA seems to be moving purposefully toward a goal and I personally don't feel like I need to jump in and tell them how to steer their boat.  

At least I don't feel the need to tell others, in a public forum, how I would tell the IKKA to steer their boat if I were talking to them. That may be more to my point.  I have called them and sent them email directly, but none of that was broadcast to anyone else either before or after it happened.  Whoever answers the phone there was quite prepared to answer my questions.

I read part of this thread again a few hours ago and it prompted my post.  I can't say that in the land of free speech (2001 legislation not withstanding) that I want to edit people's thoughts.  So don't take my comments the wrong way.  I think there is a difference between debating a topic and trying to kill an idea.  A fine line.  That's my 2 cents.

However, I'm also not the IKKA and therefore I can't make "the call for everybody who can't write something positive to remain absolutely silent."

But if you are going that susceptible to my suggestions then send me $1000 and I'll certify your rank and give you permission to continue what you are doing.


I also plan on going to Pasadena in July to check this out for myself and get some great experience.  It will be sort of like Mr. Duffy's 1994 camp all over again.  I didn't get to take any classes at that one, I was shooting a documentary as several of you know.

Feel free to PM me if you like.  I don't want to get into a Flame war.  As we all know, there is no Interpersonal Communication over the internet.  No inflections, no body language, so it is easy to take stuff out of context. 

I still think it is disrespectful to say that you don't like what the IKKA is doing, particularly if you don't know what it is.  But on the other hand, I don't deny that you have a right to your opinion.

So carry on.  I know this is a convoluted issue but don't misconstrue my preference for everyone to be respectful (as they should be in person to each other) with any attempt to stifle free speech.  But one of my favorite sayings, which I adopted years ago while playing Sim City, is "Naysayers say Nay!"  I still think that is hysterical.  Often sad but true.  But very well put.


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## Billy Lear (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Hey, so why is OK for others to post negative speculation and gossip and I can't say something founded in logic?  What are the facts?  There are not many, so debating them is almost pointless.  The ones I know of are these:
> 1. Mr. Trejo is in the IKKA
> 2. There is a Homecoming Camp this summer and a lot of high-profile people are teaching
> 3. Not much else has been confirmed as a fact*



Here are some other FACTS:
1. The IKKA has raised their prices for association membership.
2. The IKKA is recruiting Seniors first, their students second...
3. The IKKA boycotted Mr. Trejo's tournament.
4. The IKKA is putting together a board of Seniors that will be in charge of the Kenpo side of the business.
5. They are revamping their merchandise (books, etc...)
6. They are going to hold more than one IKC a year.
7. Larry Kongaika is the Prsident of the IKKA.
8. Ed Parker Jr. is in charge of their creative department.
9. Yvonne Parker's husband pretty much owns it all.
10. Frank Trejo and Huk Planas are already members of the association.
11. They are talking about bringing "other" arts into the association.
12. They are talking about changing the IKKA curriculum to the 16 technique system.
13. They are talking about producing several video projects and revamping the Infinite Insights series.
14. They're planning infommercials to hit TV sometime later this year.

but... we'll have to wait and see... :shrug: 

Doug,

I again think it is good for people to question the motives and actions of an association like the IKKA. It will have a pretty big impact on them, especially if they are involved in Kenpo, and thier teachers sign on. 

Sincerely,
Billy :asian:


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## cdhall (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *Doug,
> 
> I again think it is good for people to question the motives and actions of an association like the IKKA. It will have a pretty big impact on them, especially if they are involved in Kenpo, and thier teachers sign on.
> ...



Billy,

Once again, I don't want to stop anyone from thinking or from exercising their constitutional rights such as free speech.

But we apparently come from a different perspective.  I am not accustomed to questioning my instructor.  You either follow him/her or you leave.  I would not be caught dead on here questioning Mr. Duffy's motives or decisions and wondering out loud whether I thought I could do better.

I don't necessarily agree with you that the IKKA poses a threat to anyone.  If they allow dual affiliation then could my instructor join and also not require me to join?  What would that do to me?  Nothing I think. So I don't have an issue.  If this turns out to be the case, then no one may have an issue.  If your instructor requires you to join and your lessons go up $10/mo are you saying that you don't think your instructor is worth an extra $10/mo?  Again, if that happens to me I also don't think that is an issue either.  He is worth another $10 if he wants it.

As far as the IKKA boycotting Mr. Trejo's tournament, if he works for them now then he must have resolved that issue, no?

Regarding the 16 Technique Curriculum.  I'm partial to that idea myself.

It could mean that you all get a 2 Stripe promotion too, so what gives?  

P.S. No disrepect intended but how can I verify your list of facts if the IKKA has not released them themselves?  Unless they can verified they are just rumors.  Just another thought.  Remember, I live in Texas, so if there is a Crier on the front porch of the Pasedena studio announcing the news I can not be expected to know that. 

And don't forget. I'm just a Weed in the Kenpo Jungle. 
:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (May 21, 2003)

Here's what I know, and what I think anybody can verify--though they don't have to agree with my take on it, obviously.

1. The IKKA has been in decline for some time, in terms of membership, influence, etc.

2. The last two tournaments I went to in Long Beach (1999 & 2000) were dreadful. No attendance, lackluster performances, etc. And a lot of praying over the audience at the last one.

3. There's been a lot of--how shall I describe it--schnockering around on the various forums, that has had to do with politics and salesmanship. Some of it has been open and aboveboard; some has not. 

4. There appears to have been something going on involving Mr. Trejo's two tournaments, Dian Tanaka, Mrs. Parker, and the IKKA. It does not seem to have been pretty.

5. It has long been difficult to get copies of the "Infinite Insights," books.

6. American kenpo has a long history of being a bit grabby with the bucks, though I don't know enough to comment on whether or not there's more of this in kenpo than in other martial arts.

7. The means by which the IKKA is being rebuilt, from what's been reported on the forums, look sketchy to me. Of course, perhaps they have to.

8. The couple of folks who have been asking questions--Billy Lear and Kirk come to mind--are getting some fairly patronizing responses.

9. I don't care at all for the calls for silence, when forums are there so that everyone (including me, to be sure) can freely express their ignorance and ask questions.

10. Some of the dialogue suggests power and money organized around the same old father-and-son Oedipal model that is half the problem with Mr. Parker's legacy in the first place. For example, translating questions about money into rhetorical questions about our own instructors and hypothetical disrespect for them.

11. There is a general trend towards centralization in the martial arts, and towards turning their study into a new source of corporate revenue enhancement, that I don't care for at all. In part, this is because American martial arts have retained very little of the historical, cultural, and social structures that kept some kind of checks on crappy behavior in old world arts. (Though those old world arts also often excluded women and other undesirables on the grounds of those same protecting structures.) To be sure, holding back the tide of capitalism is a losing battle, and this trend is going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better.
12. I personally am damn glad that I've learned enough that I can keep learning on my own if I have to, for the rest of my life. 

13. Since H.L Mencken and Spiro Agnew at least, we nattering nabobs of negativism have been getting accused of being--well--aware of reality and critical about it. Good for us.

14. I would be thrilled to see Mr. Trejo do well with the revamped organization. Great guy, great martial artist.

Oh well. 
Robert


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## Michael Billings (May 21, 2003)

Speaking as an instructor, I think I would have a hard time charging my students $10 more per month.  It is not about whether I am worth it or not, it is about putting a strain on financial relationships in an already strained economy.  It also depends on what they have to offer my students for the money, not just what they offer me.  That was the whole crux of my changing Associations.  My students out here in *KenpoWeed land*, as Doug called Texas, just could not benefit from my previous Association.  They paid dues, got patches, and that was it for them.  If we lived elsewhere, closer to where my previous Association headquartered, there would have been a much stronger Kenpo community to participate in.  I would not take a raise in prices lightly Doug.  

Think about it from the perspective of you being a teacher.  And unless I am wrong Doug, and Sifu has changed greatly, he always entertained and answered my questions.  If he could not talk about an issue due to confidentiality issues, or it was just not appropriate for him to share, he would say so.  I always appreciated this honesty.  Your not questioning may be just that ... *your* not wanting to ask him the questions.  Think about it.  I did not want anyone to get the impression that your instructor stifled you.  I am sure that is not what you meant ... is it?


Oss,
-Michael


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## cdhall (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *My students out here in KenpoWeed land, as Doug called Texas...I did not want anyone to get the impression that your instructor stifled you.  I am sure that is not what you meant ... is it?*



A) I don't think I said Texas was *KenpoWeed land*, you are not trying to get me into any trouble I hope.   

B) I personally have more access to Mr. Duffy than maybe anyone.  I ask him stuff all the time. We meet for maybe an hour a week about material, business, etc.  He addresses every question I put to him.  He is more like my big brother than my teacher and I have gotten into trouble over this once or twice. I didn't say anything about him stifling me.  He encourages everyone to go to every seminar they can and see what is out there.

Oddly, other Kenpo instructors have jumped on me here on Martial Talk and tried to govern my behaviour.  I find that rather disturbing, but I'm not making any reference to you, sir.  You have been very nice to me in person and on the web since I've met you.

So, no I did not mean that Mr. Duffy was stifling. I'm not sure how you got that.  

Please don't get me in trouble by misquoting me here or mischaracterizing my statements.  Mr. Duffy has already asked me a few times about "what I've been up to" based on people misquoting to him what I have said.  I know you don't want to get me into any trouble.  Please post a reply if I have been vague about any of this.  I don't want to a rumor to get started.  I will try to make things as clear as I can right here before anything gets out of hand.

I understand that you probaby posed that question to me to give me a chance to clear it up and I appreciate it, sir.  You are right.  That is not what I meant. 

Thank you.
:asian:


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## Kirk (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> So, no I did not mean that Mr. Duffy was stifling. I'm not sure how you got that.
> *





> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> But we apparently come from a different perspective. I am not accustomed to questioning my instructor. You either follow him/her or you leave. I would not be caught dead on here questioning Mr. Duffy's motives or decisions and wondering out loud whether I thought I could do better.
> *




Both of you are my friends, so I'm not trying to fan anything ...
just wanted to say, it did come across to me that questioning him
could be "out of line" depending on the circumstance.


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## cdhall (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Both of you are my friends, so I'm not trying to fan anything ...
> just wanted to say, it did come across to me that questioning him
> could be "out of line" depending on the circumstance. *



I think I meant "questioning him indirectly via the internet."  I would question in person if I wanted to.  But I would not go do it on the Internet "instead" of asking him directly.  

I called Mr. Billings and now I see your post, Kirk.  I see what you were saying.

I also meant that if I did not like what he was doing, I would leave if I was not comfortable.  I would not stay and go vent via the internet.

I hope all that makes sense.  Let me know if it doesn't.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
:asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 21, 2003)

What are friends for if not to give you 7734 (upside down) every now and then?  Just to keep ya honest.  

Thanks for the call, but no big thang!

-Michael


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## roryneil (May 22, 2003)

Where are all these "facts" obtained from? Not saying its not true, just wondering where the info comes from.


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## Michael Billings (May 22, 2003)

Billy is one of Frank Trejo's long time students.  I have heard some of the same info from my teachers, at seminars and camps.  They are directly involved in that the IKKA is soliciting them.  A lot of the same info was shared with me as Billy or Doug are now making public.

-Michael


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## cdhall (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *A lot of the same info was shared with me as Billy or Doug are now making public.
> 
> -Michael *



Ack! :erg: 

I think I have only made public info that came to me from the IKKA and I have quoted them as the source.  I can see I am going to get in trouble for "gossiping."  My retirement from MT may be imminent.  

Again, let me know if I said something that seemed otherwise.  I don't think I have made any new info public.

I was wondering the same thing as Rory.  I told that to Billy yesterday as well.  So I have been operating from the premise that it is not a "fact" unless it comes from a verifiable source.  I would perhaps have posted the same thing that Rory posted if this topic kept going or came up again.

I try to be careful not to misquote anyone and to also identify my sources, so excuse me if I'm being paranoid, but I don't want to "polute the water" as it were.  Making a few waves of course is a different matter. Perhaps.


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## Billy Lear (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Ack! :erg:
> 
> I think I have only made public info that came to me from the IKKA and I have quoted them as the source.  I can see I am going to get in trouble for "gossiping."  My retirement from MT may be imminent.  *



Doug,

You're being too sensitive about this crap. Relax brother. It's not that important. You're giving these things too much real-estate in your head.


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## cdhall (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Billy Lear _
> *Doug,
> 
> You're being too sensitive about this crap. Relax brother. It's not that important. You're giving these things too much real-estate in your head.
> ...



Dead on.  I think you got it.

I should not expect "journalistic integrity" on a Message Board.

Especially when they don't even expect it at the New York Times!
:rofl:


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## Michael Billings (May 22, 2003)

HAH!!!  I like that ... "too much real estate in your head".  

-Michael


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