# Sharing Space with another lineage.



## yak sao (Mar 17, 2019)

Over the years I have shared space with Tai Chi guys, Hung Gar guys and BJJ guys , and there's never been an issue.

There may be an opportunity to share space in a Wing Chun school if it works out.
 Trying to decide if that's a good idea or if I'm just asking for trouble by bringing two separate lineages into close proximity like that. 

Thoughts?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 17, 2019)

What are the other lineages sifu's like?


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## JR 137 (Mar 17, 2019)

I think it’ll only be a problem if you and/or the other teacher make it a problem. I don’t see how it should be any different than the previous places. So long as no one’s telling anyone they’re wrong, it should be all good.

I’m not a CMA guy, so take that as you will. Being a Seido Karate guy, I wouldn’t see a problem on my end if I were to lease/share space in a Shotokan or Kyokushin school for example. They’ve got a shared lineage that split at different points. It would come down to the individual rather than what style they teach. There’s plenty of people out there who make great and bad roommates; it’s not limited to MA by any means.


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## dvcochran (Mar 17, 2019)

Teaching/owning/running a MA dojo/dojang is a business, and major component of your way of thinking about it has to be geared that way. When I opened our first dojang it was partnership. I had little to no concern about the business/promotion side of the school, basically I was a silent partner of sorts. I was only concerned with teaching and learning TKD. Had my partner not been business minded we may not have survived those first lean years. 
Early on we also shared our space with an aerobics class. It was kind of cheesy having some of their stuff on the walls but nothing overboard and it paid the bills. I feel when sharing space in our environment there has to be very clear delineations; this is my class time, this is your class time. Then it is all about the quality of the class and the instructor. It should never be a competition between styles. If you are concerned about the other style poaching students that is something you need to talk through with the other instructor of there will be hard feelings. Sooner or later a student will migrate from one style to the other. Then it comes down how confident you are in the quality of your product. 
It can certainly work. You just have to be very thorough on laying the ground rules. 

What is the purpose of doing this in the first place?
Are you getting back in to teaching?
Is this for profit?
Is this an opportunity for a better class schedule/times?
Is there a junior/senior relationship with the other style?
Are you financially prepared? 
Do you have the necessary equipment?
Do you have a *business plan*?
Do you have a *business plan*?
Do you have a *business plan*?
Yea, that last one is important.


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## Headhunter (Mar 17, 2019)

As long as everyone acts like adults it shouldn't be an issue


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 17, 2019)

yak sao said:


> Over the years I have shared space with Tai Chi guys, Hung Gar guys and BJJ guys , and there's never been an issue.
> 
> There may be an opportunity to share space in a Wing Chun school if it works out.
> Trying to decide if that's a good idea or if I'm just asking for trouble by bringing two separate lineages into close proximity like that.
> ...



TRAITOR!!!!!! 

The CMA school I currently train push hands at has the owner and head teacher and he teaches Long Fist, Taijiquan and Sanshou, another Chen Taiji teacher who is Chen, from a Chen family lineage, Another Wudang Taijiquan teacher and a JKD guy. And then in the push hands class there is me. All different lineages and they all seem to get along pretty well. 

It is the attitude and the feeling you get when you walk in the door of a Chinese Marital Arts Guan (Kwoon) that makes all the difference and where I hang out now has real positive energy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I think it’ll only be a problem if you and/or the other teacher make it a problem. I don’t see how it should be any different than the previous places. So long as no one’s telling anyone they’re wrong, it should be all good.
> 
> I’m not a CMA guy, so take that as you will. Being a Seido Karate guy, I wouldn’t see a problem on my end if I were to lease/share space in a Shotokan or Kyokushin school for example. They’ve got a shared lineage that split at different points. It would come down to the individual rather than what style they teach. There’s plenty of people out there who make great and bad roommates; it’s not limited to MA by any means.


I completely agree with this. I could teach in the same space (even sharing students) with someone teaching a different style of NGA, or a different Aikido...if they could also accept that there are differences and not black-and-white right/wrong approaches. If the other folks (and you) are okay with questions coming up - which they will under this kind of approach - it should be workable.

I was a little concerned about it when I went to talk to talk to the dojo owner of the Karate school I teach at now. She could have been very touchy about it, and not wanted someone teaching a different approach under her roof (I know some NGA instructors who wouldn't be able to set their ego aside and give up always being "right"), but she and I are getting along well.

You seem humble enough to make this a good thing. If the other instructors are, too, this could be really good for the students (and maybe for the art?).

Maybe try teaching a seminar together first. If you can present side-by-side, discussing differences and where you each have strengths and weaknesses without anyone getting pissy, it's probably workable.


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## yak sao (Mar 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Maybe try teaching a seminar together first. If you can present side-by-side, discussing differences and where you each have strengths and weaknesses without anyone getting pissy, it's probably workable.



Interesting idea


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## yak sao (Mar 17, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> As long as everyone acts like adults it shouldn't be an issue



Please, we're WC practitioners. Have you ever known any of us to act childish?


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## ShortBridge (Mar 20, 2019)

I can't say that it would be a problem, but I could see it being weird.

Assuming the sifu are cool and proper with it all, I can't see the students not comparing and contrasting and looking over the wall and wondering. It's usually not experts who can't get along on this point, it's usually people with 0-1 or 2 years of experience. Maybe it's a great social experiment to tease this dysfunction out in the open and see if you and the other sifu can help everyone rise above, but ... I don't know. I can see it being a problem. 

Sharing with a Hung Gar or a Danzan Ryu club or something would be much easier.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 20, 2019)

ShortBridge said:


> I can't say that it would be a problem, but I could see it being weird.
> 
> Assuming the sifu are cool and proper with it all, I can't see the students not comparing and contrasting and looking over the wall and wondering. It's usually not experts who can't get along on this point, it's usually people with 0-1 or 2 years of experience. Maybe it's a great social experiment to tease this dysfunction out in the open and see if you and the other sifu can help everyone rise above, but ... I don't know. I can see it being a problem.
> 
> Sharing with a Hung Gar or a Danzan Ryu club or something would be much easier.


I don't think the disagreement at <2 years experience is normal, either. I think it's a result of the way they are taught. If you tell them things are "right" and "wrong", they'll believe you for a while (and some will never change their minds). Then put two people together who've been told each other's approach is "wrong", and they'll argue.

Take those same students, and teach them why something is done - including both the advantages and disadvantages - and teach them to think about the "why". Show them some variations you've seen elsewhere, and explain why you don't teach those (not just "that's not how we do it"). Now, put the same two students together who've been taught differently, and they're more likely to want to see how the other person does it, and why.

I can't say for certain, obviously, but I've seen this in other arts. The more right/wrong talk there is, the more closed-minded the students are, and the more bickering they'll get into between disparate groups.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 20, 2019)

My gym has at least eight active BJJ instructors (brown and black belts) along with a few more senior ranks who don’t currently teach but might if their schedules change.

If you randomly look at any two of us, there’s a decent chance that there will be as much difference between our personal styles as there is between representatives of two different Wing Chun lineages. We move differently, we may teach specific techniques differently, we have different focuses in our teaching and practice. The underlying principles are the same, but the specifics change.

We don’t tell our students “my way is right, Matt’s way is wrong.” We tell them, “this is the way I want you to try this for now and this is why it works this way. When you are in someone else’s class, do it the way they show and try to understand why they are showing it that way. Then go out and spar a whole bunch and figure out which way works for you. If you find a variation that isn’t what we showed you but it works really well, come back and show me. Maybe it will be something I want to try.”

I don’t see why this approach shouldn’t work for WC as well.


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## yak sao (Mar 20, 2019)

Yeah, never been a fan of  "we're right, they're wrong."
I prefer the "this is why we do it this way"" approach.


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## dvcochran (Mar 20, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think the disagreement at <2 years experience is normal, either. I think it's a result of the way they are taught. If you tell them things are "right" and "wrong", they'll believe you for a while (and some will never change their minds). Then put two people together who've been told each other's approach is "wrong", and they'll argue.
> 
> Take those same students, and teach them why something is done - including both the advantages and disadvantages - and teach them to think about the "why". Show them some variations you've seen elsewhere, and explain why you don't teach those (not just "that's not how we do it"). Now, put the same two students together who've been taught differently, and they're more likely to want to see how the other person does it, and why.
> 
> I can't say for certain, obviously, but I've seen this in other arts. The more right/wrong talk there is, the more closed-minded the students are, and the more bickering they'll get into between disparate groups.


Agree. I have seen an isolationist mentality by instructors in some schools so much so that it seems apparent they are pulling the wool and may not even know it. A confident, progressive school is going to actively teach new and relevant things along with the main curriculum. We have around a dozen BB's that teach in some capacity. Each has their own personality and teaching style. Some have experience in other styles or schools and I welcome the input. If for no other reason than to break up the grind that repetition in learning can create. It is fun to get outside the lines sometimes.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 20, 2019)

I don't really teach right and wrong, except on the lines of principals, but it is pervasive in Wing Chun. I guess it comes down to how well you and other-sifu can set an example and lead by it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 20, 2019)

ShortBridge said:


> I don't really teach right and wrong, except on the lines of principals, but it is pervasive in Wing Chun. I guess it comes down to how well you and other-sifu can set an example and lead by it.


What?? I've never seen evidence of black and white thinking in the WC forum here. When does that ever happen?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 20, 2019)

Assuming the people involved are adults, or can at least pretend to be adults, why would it matter in the slightest who you share space with?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 20, 2019)

yak sao said:


> asking for trouble by bringing two separate lineages into close proximity like that.
> 
> Thoughts?


As long as students don't take both classes at the same time.

When I started my UT Austin Kung Fu informal class, it was 2 hours class. The 1st hour was WC and the 2nd hour was long fist. After few weeks, all the students got really confused.

The confuse started from the basic punch training.

- Long fist punch requires punching arm and chest make a straight line.
- WC punch requires there is an angle between chest and the punching arm.

I don't think "cross training" should start when students are beginners.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 20, 2019)

It might create an interesting situation if all the students gradually migrate away from one teacher, in favor of the other.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 20, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> It might create an interesting situation if all the students gradually migrate away from one teacher, in favor of the other.


Or one student from class A beats up one student from class B. Worse than that, one student from class A may tell one student from class B, "My teacher can beat up your teacher."

Sometime even if you don't look for trouble, trouble will look for you.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 20, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Or one student from class A beats up one student from class B. Worse than that, one student from class A may tell one student from class B, "My teacher can beat up your teacher."
> 
> Sometime even if you don't look for trouble, trouble will look for you.



Read the comment above about being, or pretending to be, adults. I mean, are these schools run by third graders?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 20, 2019)

If Bruce Lee shared teaching space with another MA style. When Bruce said "When I fight, I punch, I don't push." Do you think Bruce's comment might upset MA styles that love pushing?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As long as students don't take both classes at the same time.
> 
> When I started my UT Austin Kung Fu informal class, it was 2 hours class. The 1st hour was WC and the 2nd hour was long fist. After few weeks, all the students got really confused.
> 
> ...


It depends on the instructor and what's being cross-trained. It sounds like trying to start both Long Fist and WC would be problematic. Probably the same is true of trying to start two branches of WC at once. Boxing and  BJJ, not as much problem. And if someone starts my Aikido class when they start at the Karate school, I just don't teach the formal punch or basic kicks as early as usual. They can get by with the Shorin-ryu basic strikes for their first rank.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> It might create an interesting situation if all the students gradually migrate away from one teacher, in favor of the other.


That would be more likely to create conflict. In that case, if I were the first teacher, I'd be desperate to figure out why...or I'd join the other instructor's class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Or one student from class A beats up one student from class B. Worse than that, one student from class A may tell one student from class B, "My teacher can beat up your teacher."
> 
> Sometime even if you don't look for trouble, trouble will look for you.


Those seem like really unlikely scenarios, except where kids are involved.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If Bruce Lee shared teaching space with another MA style. When Bruce said "When I fight, I punch, I don't push." Do you think Bruce's comment might upset MA styles that love pushing?


It wouldn't upset me. Sometimes I punch, sometimes I push. I wouldn't expect another instructor - even in my same art - to actually have my same approach in every way.


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## geezer (Mar 21, 2019)

Sharing space with another WC group would be gutsy. I can think of two ways you might approach it. One would be to train at different times, to have a as little contact with the other group as possible, and have a standing rule for students not to talk about or compare techniques with the other group , period.

That wouldn't work for me though, or my (last remaining) students. They are a curious bunch and they are always asking questions about stuff. So after class we will often have lengthy conversations comparing what we do to other things we have seen or experienced so we can better understand why we do what we do ...understanding that there may be no "best" way, just different approaches.  

So if I had to share a studio with the WC guy down the street, I'd have to get him on board and maybe at some point do some joint workshops where we talk about similarities and differences. From my previous contacts with him, I'm pretty sure he'd be open to at least talking about the idea. Decent guy. 

On the other hand, the association I first belonged to preached the _we're right and they're wrong _line ...or more like _we're superior and they're all really stupid _line. And even informal training with other groups was really frowned upon. Even among (or _especially_ among) people that had previously trained in our lineage and association. Very cult-ish. 

So if you are in dealing with anyone like that, or anyone who is 100% about making money and crushing any possible competition, better walk the other way. 

BTW if you give this a try, keep us posted and let us know how it works out.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 21, 2019)

geezer said:


> Sharing space with another WC group would be gutsy.


Some issue also happen in SC as well. Before my wife and I got married, she went to another SC school. When she applied a "front cut", she used her hand to push on her opponent's throat. The SC instructor said, "That's John Wang's way. In my school, we push on the shoulder instead". In that SC school, the throat hold was not allowed.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If Bruce Lee shared teaching space with another MA style. When Bruce said "When I fight, I punch, I don't push." Do you think Bruce's comment might upset MA styles that love pushing?


You do need to understand the context in which Bruce Lee said that.  

Some Sifu were settling into horse stance and taking turns trying to push each other out of that stance.  It was merely to test the rootedness of the stance; in and of itself it was not meant as a combative application.  According to the story, Bruce walked up to one of these Sifu who had settled into the stance, and popped him in the nose, which was a real dick thing to do.  As if there is any difficulty in sucker-punching someone who is absolutely not expecting it, and in fact has reason to expect the opposite.  Wow, really deep stuff there.

Bruce was not saying that you never push in a fight.


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## Eric_H (Mar 25, 2019)

In case you care about such things, there's always your future reputation to consider.

My teacher shared space with another teacher back in the 90's I think. To this day that other teacher's students talk trash that my teacher learned from the other person. Not true, they've only met a handful of times, but they keep rumors circulating. People like to build themselves up by cutting others down.


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## yak sao (Apr 8, 2019)

Turns out this thread was one big hypothetical situation.
The guy that runs the school decided not to go for it. Can't say I really blame him, and besides it gave us something to talk about.


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2019)

yak sao said:


> .... besides it gave us *something to talk about*.



Yeah, and we need more of that. This place has really been slowing down lately!


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## wckf92 (Apr 8, 2019)

geezer said:


> Yeah, and we need more of that. This place has really been slowing down lately!



yeah...we need our WSL guys back...and maybe even...ahem...HS!


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## yak sao (Apr 8, 2019)

wckf92 said:


> yeah...we need our WSL guys back...and maybe even...ahem...HS!



You sick twisted bastard


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2019)

yak sao said:


> Turns out this thread was one big hypothetical situation.
> The guy that runs the school decided not to go for it. Can't say I really blame him, and besides it gave us something to talk about.


That's a shame. I liked the idea and was looking forward to hearing about it.


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2019)

wckf92 said:


> yeah...we need our WSL guys back...and maybe even...ahem...HS!



Actually, I'd really like to get the _other_ WSL guys back. The ones who knew what they were talking about, but who wisely avoided the dumb arguments!


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 9, 2019)

geezer said:


> Actually, I'd really like to get the _other_ WSL guys back. The ones who knew what they were talking about, but who wisely avoided the dumb arguments!


Wait, you guys had some of those, and let them leave??


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## Callen (Apr 12, 2019)

geezer said:


> Actually, I'd really like to get the _other_ WSL guys back. The ones who knew what they were talking about, but who wisely avoided the dumb arguments!


I haven't posted very much, but I'm still here


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 12, 2019)

Callen said:


> I haven't posted very much, but I'm still here


That's probably a result of the "wisely avoided the dumb arguments" condition


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