# Shoppers stepped over victim



## Ceicei (Jul 4, 2007)

This is kind of sad....



> WICHITA, Kan. (AP) -- As stabbing victim LaShanda Calloway lay dying on the floor of a convenience store, five shoppers, including one who stopped to take a picture of her with a cell phone, stepped over the woman, police said.



Why would this stop anyone (other than emt) from rendering help?  This is beyond comprehension.  If the danger is past and someone is hurt, why (as a bystander) do not help?



> It was uncertain what law, if any, would be applicable. A state statute for failure to render aid refers only to victims of a car accident. Eagle columnist Mark McCormick told The Associated Press he learned about the video when he called Wichita Police Chief Norman Williams to inquire about a phone call he had received from a reader complaining about a Police Department policy that requires emergency medical personnel to wait until police secure a crime scene before rendering aid.



Link to article below:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/STABBING_VIDEO?SITE=UTSAC&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

- Ceicei


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## exile (Jul 4, 2007)

OK. I know we need to suspend judgment till all the facts are in. I know that a lot of times things are not nearly as straightforward as they appear...

... but, in my current state of near-total ignorance of the situation, I still find it hard to avoid feelings of loathing for the person who (apparently calmly) snapped a photo of this poor woman dying on the floor of a convenience store... is that the best she could do for a fellow suffering human in what turned out to be the latter's last moments? No evidence of compassion or grief for what happened? Just a voyeur's souvenir of an unexpected death in the course of a shopping trip for some diet Coke?

It could be very different. I hope it is. But I'm finding it _very_ hard not to react along those lines.... and I'd be very glad to turn out to be wrong about it...


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## Kacey (Jul 4, 2007)

The article stated that it took ~2 minutes to call 911... I can imagine being in shock and not reacting immediately - but continuing to shop?  To take pictures?  Eeuuww....


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## theletch1 (Jul 4, 2007)

FIVE people stepped over the victim?!  That is outrageous.  Has society as a whole become so callous that the life of anyone means nothing?  What does it say about us as a people when things like this happen?  I could not have just walked away and still been able to look at myself in the mirror afterward.  I know that I'm not the most eloquent guy in the world but even my limited ability to express my disgust has been overloaded by this.

The law requiring EMTs to wait only applies if there is still an expectation of danger to the lives of the rescuers I think.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 4, 2007)

I second *Exile*'s opinions made clear above and, *letch*, that short paragraph said all it needed to as eloquently as can be :tup:.

I've said elsewhere that I've been 'programmed' from an early age to render assistence if required, sometimes to the point of not allowing fear of consequences to hold me back.  

Perhaps it's the latter fear of consequences that is in play here i.e. the litigous society has reared up to bite individual members because others will not come to their aid in case they get sued?

Anyway, like *Exile* rightly said, we don't know the facts so I shall bite my tongue ... but sometimes I'm not proud of my species.


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## jks9199 (Jul 4, 2007)

All I can say is that, yes, society has indeed been filled with such callous folk.  I'm only amazed that no one actually stepped ON her...


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## MA-Caver (Jul 4, 2007)

I programmed myself to render aid where needed, especially in a situation like that. Where the perp had already left the scene and someone's life's blood is running out on the ground crying for help. 
Inexcusable, inhuman and one hopes that the same will befall those who didn't help. That they will SEE people stepping over them as they lie bleeding. 

Sad.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 4, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> I programmed myself to render aid where needed, especially in a situation like that. Where the perp had already left the scene and someone's life's blood is running out on the ground crying for help.
> Inexcusable, inhuman and one hopes that the same will befall those who didn't help. That they will SEE people stepping over them as they lie bleeding.
> 
> Sad.



Being a civilian and having been a first responder to couple of accidents, I understand giving aid, even if it nothing more than a jacket or blanket while a person is trapped in a vehicle. Or trying to stop the blood flow. Or in one case making sure no one else came along in the fog and ran into them. 

Although, given what I read in the linked article, it seems to be either a triangle or two woman who were fighting and one stabbed the other. Not knowing tghe neighborhood and past issues, but if it was a gang issue then some people might be concerned about retaliation if they helped. In particular if it has happened before. So, until more information is available I will hold my comments, and hope that it just does not happen again.


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## jks9199 (Jul 4, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Being a civilian and having been a first responder to couple of accidents, I understand giving aid, even if it nothing more than a jacket or blanket while a person is trapped in a vehicle. Or trying to stop the blood flow. Or in one case making sure no one else came along in the fog and ran into them.
> 
> Although, given what I read in the linked article, it seems to be either a triangle or two woman who were fighting and one stabbed the other. Not knowing tghe neighborhood and past issues, but if it was a gang issue then some people might be concerned about retaliation if they helped. In particular if it has happened before. So, until more information is available I will hold my comments, and hope that it just does not happen again.


I've got no sympathy for these bystanders...

We know at least one had a damn cell phone.  How ****ing hard would it be to dial 911, say "A woman's been stabbed at wherever" and hang up?

I guarantee police would have responded to check it out.  Caller would have been anonymous.

The need to publish the video, complete with stills and enhanced images of the people who walked by...  They apparently can't be bothered to do the bare minimum... No, wait.  They did do the bare minimum in that they didn't step on the victim.  What they didn't do was the minimum duty expected of another human being, especially Christians.


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## Drac (Jul 4, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> All I can say is that, yes, society has indeed been filled with such callous folk. I'm only amazed that no one actually stepped ON her...


 
Ya beat me to saying that..Just when I think I've seen every act of calliousness, something like this happens..


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## Brian King (Jul 4, 2007)

I was not there and will try to withhold rendering my own judgment on the bystanders and the stabber and the women stabbed. Gangs, retaliations and street justice may be individually or together playing a part in this particular event. Having seen first hand mans inhumanity I am no longer surprised at it but now marvel at how man can risk all for a stranger and understand and deeply admire the greatness and grace that some display. This event is a reminder to all that bad things do happen and that to rely on help from authorities or even from others can be a lethal mistake. I pray for the victim and the young lady charged in the murder and those that witnessed the crime and their families. A single brief act of violence can affect so many people in so many ways. 

Brian King


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## MJS (Jul 4, 2007)

Even if nobody was medically trained, at the least, someone should have called 911 and started medical and police services.  Had this been done sooner, there may have been a chance that she could've lived.  

As Sukerkin stated, its possible people were afraid of retaliation by the suspects, further injuring the victim, etc.  

Its certainly a sad situation.


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## bluemtn (Jul 4, 2007)

It should just be a natural instinct to want to help someone else, especially if they're injured.  Even if no one there knew first aid, they could've at least made an attempt at helping her.  It's not exactly brain surgery, in regards of applying a bandage (at the VERY least).  All the more reason to learn first aid/ CPR...


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## Steel Tiger (Jul 4, 2007)

How sad has society gotten when something like this happens?  

And what the hell are you going to do with a picture of a dying person?  Show it to your mates and say, "Look here's a shot I got of a person I couldn't be buggered to help?"

Two minutes to call 911?  What was the store owner doing?  Hmm someone's been stabbed in my store, I'll just serve this customer then call emergency services.

Have we become so inured to violence and callous behaviour that it no longer impacts us?  Have we become so foolish with petty litigation that we have created a situation where no one will help another?

Hearing of people doing this infuriates me.  I'd just like to get them all and give them slap and shout "WAKE UP!!!"


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## exile (Jul 4, 2007)

tkdgirl said:


> It should just be a natural instinct to want to help someone else, especially if they're injured.



This, I think, is the heart of all our outrage, however we try to suspend it while awaiting more information. _How could no one care??_ Where is the human warmth and empathy that we ourselves crucially depend on when we're in trouble and must rely, as the old saw has it, on the kindness of strangers? 

Beyond our anger at the apparent callousness here&#8212;and Drac is dead right, just when you think you've seen or heard of everything, something like this happens&#8212;I think it chills us a bit to think that the attitude that the people in the store displayed, particularly the one who took the picture, might be the way we really feel about each other now. Is that the most we can now expect of our fellows?


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## Brian King (Jul 4, 2007)

*exile wrote*



> Is that the most we can now expect of our fellows?


 
Yes, that is what we can and should expect of our fellows, it is nothing new this callousness and selfishness. It has been with man since the beginning with only a few bright lights shining here and there throughout our shared history. Our job as I see it is to understand this weakness of man and to recognize it in ourselves and with the recognition and understanding to then choose to step beyond the evil of it, setting the example for others to follow and acknowledging and thanking others when they do step beyond, and raise the bar for all with-in our spheres of influence

Brian King


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## CoryKS (Jul 5, 2007)

exile said:


> Is that the most we can now expect of our fellows?


 
In a word, no.  We're comparing the actions of what?  Five people?  Against the thousands of people who have seen the report and been horrified by it?  The fact that this is even a national news article belies the claim that this is in any way representative of our society in general.  If it was, they wouldn't have reported on it because the rest of us wouldn't care either.


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## exile (Jul 5, 2007)

Brian said:


> *exile wrote*
> 
> 
> *Yes, that is what we can and should expect of our fellows, it is nothing new this callousness and selfishness.* It has been with man since the beginning with only a few bright lights shining here and there throughout our shared history. Our job as I see it is to understand this weakness of man and to recognize it in ourselves and with the recognition and understanding to then choose to step beyond the evil of it, setting the example for others to follow and acknowledging and thanking others when they do step beyond, and raise the bar for all with-in our spheres of influence
> ...





CoryKS said:


> *In a word, no.  We're comparing the actions of what?  Five people?  Against the thousands of people who have seen the report and been horrified by it?*  The fact that this is even a national news article belies the claim that this is in any way representative of our society in general.  If it was, they wouldn't have reported on it because the rest of us wouldn't care either.



Well, we have a clear difference of opinion here! 

I'd much prefer it if Cory were right (I suspect Brian would as well )... but I'm not at all sure what the answer is here (or even whether we're asking the right question)...


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 5, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I've got no sympathy for these bystanders...
> 
> We know at least one had a damn cell phone. How ****ing hard would it be to dial 911, say "A woman's been stabbed at wherever" and hang up?
> 
> ...



Believe me, I have no sympathy if as stated it is al the evidence. 

Now personally I would be asking who took the picture. To me this sounds like a confirmation picture of someone who put a "hit" or "Lesson" out on someone. This person would be someone I would be investigating. I am not paranoid I know most people are evil and out to get me. I just follow the the idea of wait and see until I have mroe information. 

Not trying to bring up old news but I also took a wait and see with the Duke Case. As in this case there seems to be a lot of questions on how people acted and why. What are their affiliations and or motivations (* revenge or survival *). If the person taking the picture was a local "Known" affiliate then I could see people trying to wait to give aid until this person left so as to not be the next target. Terrorism and fear are horrible things to live with. 

Yet, as I have painted an even more horrible picture of the fear, it still does not justify their actions. It could explain them, though.


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## jks9199 (Jul 5, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Now personally I would be asking who took the picture. To me this sounds like a confirmation picture of someone who put a "hit" or "Lesson" out on someone. This person would be someone I would be investigating. I am not paranoid I know most people are evil and out to get me. I just follow the the idea of wait and see until I have mroe information.


 
It's worth looking into -- but I don't think it's very likely.  It's more likely that it was just some loser who decided this was "just to KEWL!" and had to take a picture.

Just like the folks who were busy trying to catch the VA Tech shooting on camera istead of calling the cops with the very same cell phones -- or just plain getting out of the way.

As a culture, we've developed this obsession with watching and recording and getting that "film at at eleven" so much that people are so distanced from what's happening that they don't make the connection to realize that they are seeing real people really getting hurt.  At least I hope it's that benign...  Because the other alternative is just that people don't give a damn anymore.  And that scares me.


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## Brian King (Jul 7, 2007)

*Ceicei wrote*



> Why would this stop anyone (other than emt) from rendering help?


 
There are well known phenomenon regarding the way that people think and react while in a mob or crowd state. People usually good natured and reliable can show and give in to other instincts. Often people will assume that others are handling the situation or they wait for somebody else to take charge and give orders. The waiting is contagious and soon the very air and tensions prevent people from stepping forward. Another factor that can be assumed is that some people get paralyzed by analysis. They get so caught up and then frozen in a thought loop that they never react to a changing situation. There are other situations when the crowd can keep others from helping with threats and hostile actions. One of the shootings up here during the Fourth of July celebrations gives an example of this 
http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/washington/stories/NW_070507WAB_skyway_shooting_LJ.45873242.html
_from the above article_



> According to a news release from Dave Nelson of Fire District 20, the crowd was so hostile and threatening that firefighters and paramedics took the man to an undisclosed location to try to revive him. Their efforts at cardiopulmonary resuscitation failed, and he was pronounced dead soon afterward.


 
This kind of stuff is important to understand so that God forbid you or yours are ever in a situation where action is needed you know how to get the crowd to help. One of the best ways is to make eye contact with one person and point at them and give them something easy to do, Loan me your coat, call 911, get some water,  type of commands then the next and the next. Ask if anybody knows CPR. Often people will assume somebody else knows it better, after all it has been years, but if you can get somebody to step forward and help that gets others to also want to help and you will not be doing it yourself. CPR is hard work and it helps to be able to work as a team.

*Exile wrote*


> Well, we have a clear difference of opinion here!
> 
> I'd much prefer it if Cory were right (I suspect Brian would as well )... but I'm not at all sure what the answer is here (or even whether we're asking the right question)...


I remember slightly a story out of New York a few years ago about a man suffering some kind of seizure and falling onto the subway tracks in the path of an approaching train and a stranger (a father I believe) jumping down and covering and protecting the stranger with his own body. This made national news to the point of the man being pointed out and recognized for his bravery and willingness to help and sacrifice by President Bush during a speech. I read and heard about this incident and wondered if I would have done the same and frankly I doubt it (I am a little big for trains to be passing over LOL). This makes me marvel at the grace of this man willing to sacrifice so much for a stranger in those circumstances. I read about others reacting in horror at the news of people stepping over the victim, up here we have had people run over by multiple cars with none stopping, others walk by people injured and hurt and just make space on the sidewalk so they do not get any of the yuck on their shoes or clothing. People can justify actions and sleep at night no matter how their actions or inactions affected themselves or those around them. I wonder how many of the thousands that have seen this report and been horrified by it are actually reacting to the questions they are asking of them selves and their friends and perhaps equally reacting to the perhaps unspoken answers. I am suspect mainly because the anger and horror makes me think that excessive anger and horror often act as cover for other feelings not so easily expressed.

Some questions I think people are asking as they place themselves in the place of both the victim and the crowd of witnesses are how would I feel if it was me lying in my blood and people were stepping over me, and would I react the same and not render aid to a fellow human in need and bleeding at my feet?

I think perhaps some better questions and lessons from this reported event might be

If I am stabbed or otherwise wounded or injured, what can I do to minimize the bleeding and shock until the fight is over and until help arrives or I get to somewhere safe?
If I am injured or near a injured person(s), how can I best get people around me to notice and to render aid, or if a hostile crowd keep them from hindering help?
These I think are good questions that can help our study of martial arts. The questions on human nature are also good questions to help us explore and understand our own instincts and feelings. As to preferring this or that I do not. I believe that we are here to experience things and that God has plans and I am not wise enough to understand why certain things are. They just are and I except it and continue try to learn about my self.

Brian King


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## Sukerkin (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry, *Brian* the Rep Gnomes bar me from giving you a little 'fillip' for the above - that is an excellent, well thought out, post.  Consider this an IOU until such time as you're off my rep stack once more :tup:.


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## Ceicei (Jul 7, 2007)

Thank you, Brian, for answering my question.  That was very, very well reasoned and you have brought up points that people may have vaguely wondered but didn't have the words to express.  Thank you.

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver (Jul 7, 2007)

Great post Brian. One of the key things learned at the First Responder class I attended was that it was important to not only secure the scene but to literally point out someone and *TELL* them to call 911 or do whatever it is that you need them to do if everyone else is acting like sheep or staring like cows at a passing train. 
There is the outside (very slim) chance you'll get the type of person that'll respond back: "You can't tell ME what to do!" If that happens then find someone else. If you're the victim then at least you'll lay on a good coat of guilt when they get home and read about you in the papers.


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## Mr. E (Jul 7, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> If the person taking the picture was a local "Known" affiliate then I could see people trying to wait to give aid until this person left so as to not be the next target. Terrorism and fear are horrible things to live with.



I had not thought of that possibility. We do not know is the guy taking the picture was wearing something that let others know he was in a gang.

But still the idea of _stepping over_ someone in this case bothers me. If they were scared of being targetted by the gang member, why not just run? Out of range they could have called the police. Someone might have done just that. But five people stepped over a dying woman. As Brian wrote, they may have thought someone else had already taken care of calling the police, but to _step over_ someone who has been stabbed?


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