# The Karate "Chop" and other "underrated" technques?



## chrissyp (Feb 11, 2017)

So this is something i've been playing with...Is this a "practical" technique? I'm starting to think "yes".

For the longest time, i've wrote this technique off, thinking it couldn't generate power, You never see it done in a real fight or UFC, the angles were not right, ext, but then I started to play with it..

And I realized, this is the REAL DEAL!!! You can really generate a lot of power with it and create very good angles....the reason I think people write this off, is the learning curve is high....you have to develope hand strength and toughness to really make it work...

So now that I've seen the light, I was wondering, what techniques do you feel are underrated, or one that took you a while to see the light on?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2017)

The lapel grab. Just pull down, and he is in a world of trouble.


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## chrissyp (Feb 11, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> The lapel grab. Just pull down, and he is in a world of trouble.


 I agree! This is a big reason why  i want to learn judo!


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> I agree! This is a big reason why  i want to learn judo!


Or you could just let go. You don't want a reversal. you just want him to fall down.


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## chrissyp (Feb 11, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Or you could just let go. You don't want a reversal. you just want him to fall down.


 Valid point! Touche!


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2017)

I do have a pet technique, which isn't exactly practical, but some people just are open for the collar bone grab.


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## frank raud (Feb 11, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> The lapel grab. Just pull down, and he is in a world of trouble.


As an opening gambit in hockey fighting, it is second nature to Canadians.


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## Paul_D (Feb 11, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> the reason I think people write this off, is the learning curve is high....you have to develope hand strength and toughness to really make it work...


I think the reason people write it off is because they think it's designed to be used in "real fights or the UFC" rather than civilian self protection from non consensual violence.

Also people think you are supposed to strike with the hand, rather than the forearm.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> So this is something i've been playing with...Is this a "practical" technique? I'm starting to think "yes".



Yes, it is practical.  It is also, perhaps, underrated.  It is not a do-all or a be-all panacea, however.  It is limited in comparison to other techniques.



> For the longest time, i've wrote this technique off, thinking it couldn't generate power, You never see it done in a real fight or UFC, the angles were not right, ext, but then I started to play with it..



Generating power is similar to the way one generates power to perform any upper-body technique, so there's not really a difference there.  The power is there if you know how to generate power with your hips and body rotating correctly.



> And I realized, this is the REAL DEAL!!! You can really generate a lot of power with it and create very good angles....the reason I think people write this off, is the learning curve is high....you have to develope hand strength and toughness to really make it work...



The requirement is not so much hand strength, in my opinion.  It is learning to use the shuto correctly to avoid injuring your hand.

The shuto portion of the hand, which is the part used to deliver the so-called 'karate chop' is the outer edge of the hand between the top of the wrist and the base of the little finger.  There is a pad there which can be conditioned if one desires.  So perhaps this is the 'toughness' you speak of.  More important than strength in the hand, however, is formation and learning focus.  Hit with the fingers instead of the shuto part of the hand and you've got problems.  Hit with the wrist, less so but still potential damage to the practitioner there.

Delivering the shuto requires practice to get the form correct.  It is not a natural act for most people who learned how to throw a punch or even a kick on their own.  It is primarily delivered palm up or palm down, in a curving motion which involves the elbow, shoulder, and of course power generation up through the hips and knees, etc.  It can be delivered at several different angles, but it is not ideal for all angles, you have to find the places where the shuto works and the ability to do damage is high.



> So now that I've seen the light, I was wondering, what techniques do you feel are underrated, or one that took you a while to see the light on?



Let me take a minute to expound on the shuto first.

As a so-called 'karate chop', it can be used on a neck or a collarbone.  I think most people can visualize how that would work.  Straight down like a tomahawk chop on the collarbone, or palm up in a sideways motion to the neck, base of the skull, etc.

However, there's a lot more to the shuto than that.

From a basic kamae stance, the hands are generally open, and the shut can be delivered from that position easily.  Typical targets - straight up to the base of the opponent's nose, across the bridge of the nose/eyes, strikes to the inside of the opponent's upper arms in nerve clusters, under the armpits, tricep strike, etc.  These are short snapping motions that generate power, yes, but not bone-crushing power; they are strikes to move someone backwards, get them to pay attention to the gallons of blood rushing out of their broken nose, make their arm hurt so badly they can't throw a punch, etc.  Not power here, technique rules.

Shuto can also be used across the body to balance points.  Here more power is required, but it's something you learn to generate and the goal is not to damage with the shuto per se, but to disrupt the opponent's balance, which will be immediately taken advantage of.  Think of a shuto, palm down, to the point of the opponent's hip.  It only takes a moment to steal balance, but they will recover quickly; this is a setup move to allow you to take advantage of that moment when they are disrupted.

Shuto also creates opportunities to grab, since the hand is open.  A shuto block can not only strike nerve points in the arm of the attacker, but quickly turn into a grab and pull, which should complement the movement of the arm - circular.  Out for the strike, in with the grab.  Again, taking away balance as a set up for the next technique.

Now, as to other underated techniques...

The opposite of the shuto is the haito, which is a strike with the inside edge of the hand.  Less common, less useful, harder to implement correctly, but it can do things that no other strike can do.  For example, wrap around the opponent's head and attack the base of the skull from behind, by using the arm in a circular motion.  Imagine 'wax on / wax off' in a counter-clockwise motion with the right hand, palm down.  The haito is the curved area between the base of the thumb and the wrist - a much smaller impact area.   Imagine throwing that 'circle' around the opponent's shoulder, and impacting the base of the skull as your arm is retracting.  I've done this working with an uke; you have to be very careful, even a small blow is instantly disorienting and can potentially hurt someone very badly.  I advise to only try this under competent supervision.

To me, almost all techniques are under-utilized except punching and some kicking.  Very few people know how to use elbows and knees correctly or remember to use them when in close.  Fewer still understand the concepts of body positioning, stance training, and body shifting.  Hips.  When I can hip-check someone across the floor after getting inside their preferred range, I have all the time in the world to look for openings and weaknesses to strike; understanding my own body structure, weight, center of gravity, terrain, and how the opponent stands, I feel like I'm at a pot luck.  Just take whatever looks appealing.

The most underutilized technique?  Training.  People stop training.  I know it sounds trite, but it's true.  I don't care what a person's style is; when they stop training, they start losing ability.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Also people think you are supposed to strike with the hand, rather than the forearm.



The traditional so-called 'karate chop' is indeed delivered with the hand; specifically the shuto portion of the hand.  Not the forearm.  You can certainly strike with the forearm, but that's not the traditional 'karate chop'.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

frank raud said:


> As an opening gambit in hockey fighting, it is second nature to Canadians.



I thought it was pulling the sweater over the head of the opponent.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

Addendum:  I think a lot of people discount the shuto because of what they have seen on TV or in the movies, especially the ones with "Hollywood" techniques.  They think of the karate chop as being like a hatchet chop.  You wind up and let it go.  That would be wrong.  If one winds up a chop to deliver it, one is going to be stopped.  Either the opponent moves out of the way, or they block, deflect, trap, or simply strike you before you can unwind the chop.

The shuto is delivered without preamble.  It is not an excessively telegraphed motion.  That's why it works from a kamae; your hand and arm are already in the correct position to fire without further ado.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Addendum:  I think a lot of people discount the shuto because of what they have seen on TV or in the movies, especially the ones with "Hollywood" techniques.  They think of the karate chop as being like a hatchet chop.  You wind up and let it go.  That would be wrong.  If one winds up a chop to deliver it, one is going to be stopped.  Either the opponent moves out of the way, or they block, deflect, trap, or simply strike you before you can unwind the chop.
> 
> The shuto is delivered without preamble.  It is not an excessively telegraphed motion.  That's why it works from a kamae; your hand and arm are already in the correct position to fire without further ado.


I blame William Shatner.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I blame William Shatner.



And he never tucked that thumb in, either.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And he never tucked that thumb in, either.


Not even once.


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## frank raud (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I thought it was pulling the sweater over the head of the opponent.


Need to pull down other player to reach the back of jersey. You use lapel grab as an anchor for throw haymakers.


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## frank raud (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Addendum:  I think a lot of people discount the shuto because of what they have seen on TV or in the movies, especially the ones with "Hollywood" techniques.  They think of the karate chop as being like a hatchet chop.  You wind up and let it go.  That would be wrong.  If one winds up a chop to deliver it, one is going to be stopped.  Either the opponent moves out of the way, or they block, deflect, trap, or simply strike you before you can unwind the chop.
> 
> The shuto is delivered without preamble.  It is not an excessively telegraphed motion.  That's why it works from a kamae; your hand and arm are already in the correct position to fire without further ado.


When I learned the "chop" from Carl Cestari, he said there were two version, short and long. He was a strong proponent of non-telegraphic striking, but once you had made your opening gambit, it was quite acceptable to wind up for a power strike. One of the advantages of the edge of hand blow is that it can be delivered from almost any angle, and does not require a return to the original position to initiate another strike.


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## frank raud (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And he never tucked that thumb in, either.


Nor should he, as he was delivering an edge of hand blow, not a shuto. There is a difference in the hand formation. If you look at any  WWII combatives book,(Fairbairn, Applegate, Cosneck, Navy V5, etc)you will see the flagged thumb. I have a book by Kawaishi(the founder of judo and jiu jitsu in France) demonstrating the flagged thumb.


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## JR 137 (Feb 11, 2017)

It wasn't until I regularly started hitting a heavy bag that these "underrated" strikes had much purpose for me.  I figured they were all stupid Hollywood/Kung Fu movie stuff.

Hitting a bag, a lot of these strikes were pretty weak for me.  After a few sessions and actually trying to develop them, they became incredibly powerful.  Not as strong as a solid cross or hook, but just about there.

These underrated strikes are all tools.  Using the right tool for the job makes them effective.  A properly thrown and trained shuto strike to the side of the neck or throat is going to do more damage than a punch to the same spot.  Why?  The hand shuto simply fits better there.  Why would a fist to the side of the jaw he better? Because the fist fits there better.

Another one people disparage is the crescent kick.  Same as above - the first few times I did them on a bag were very weak.  Sticking with it, they became quite strong.  Far more effective and strong for me than a head height roundhouse kick.  My head height roundhouse sucks; I'm no where near flexible enough in that regard. 

Moral of the story... Train the technique with intent and it'll be a realistic option.  Train it only against the air or even focus mitts, and it'll remain a worthless technique.  And learn to actually use it from someone who knows.

One of these days I'll work on making nukite (spear hand) a realistic option for me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 11, 2017)

When you throw a left side kick, your opponent blocks your kick and spin your body to your left. Since your body is spinning, a straight punch will be difficult to deliver, a right palm edge strike right on your opponent's neck or left collar bone will be perfect.

When you use left palm to press back on your opponent's forehead, his throat will expose to you, a palm edge chop to the throat can be an effective finish move.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

OK, here is an example of what I am talking about.






This is an example of an outside shuto strike.  In my style of karate, I am taught to keep the elbow inside my frame rather than hung out to the side like this karateka does; however, I am not criticizing him; he clearly was trained differently and that's cool.

And he may not realize it, but he is actually delivering two shut strikes.  His strike to the neck or head of the opponent with the palm up is one shuto strike.  But look closely, the other hand is ALSO performing a shuto; in this case used for a block.  This is an inside shuto and can redirect, block, or strike to a balance point.  These can be used together (our basic exercise known as 'shuto uchi, shuto uchi' or 'chop low, chop high') or by themselves.

A basic open-hand middle-body block in Okinawan karate styles is in effect a shuto, although many do not see the shuto that is in the form.  It's there, it's there.

Karate is full of 'chops'.  Most people just don't recognize them when they see or do them.


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## chrissyp (Feb 11, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> It wasn't until I regularly started hitting a heavy bag that these "underrated" strikes had much purpose for me.  I figured they were all stupid Hollywood/Kung Fu movie stuff.
> 
> Hitting a bag, a lot of these strikes were pretty weak for me.  After a few sessions and actually trying to develop them, they became incredibly powerful.  Not as strong as a solid cross or hook, but just about there.
> 
> ...


 I agree with this so much! That's one part why I wrote it off, and like you I didn't get much power out of it first, until I started conditioning my hand and technique, and then I found it does work! I 

I love what you said "Train the technique with intent"...that goes for STYLE!! I started my martial art career as mostly a Muay Thai guy, and when I went to Shotokan, people laughed and thought I was wasting my time... I learn, while Shotokan doesn't prep so much like Muay Thai, now a days at least....but if you train it hard, like muay thai, and learn to apply and use it hard sparring/living situations, you can make Shotokan, or any other style, work!


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

Naka Tatsuya Sensei has a very nice shuto strike.  Anyone would do well to emulate his moves here.  This is from the movie Kuro Obi (Black Belt) but the karate is real.


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## Buka (Feb 11, 2017)

This isn't really an underrated technique, just one I've always practiced and sometimes used.

I like a two handed shove to the chest. Not as a push, although it works that way, but as a strike. I throw it really fast and very hard. It's a warning shot, really, a shot across the bow, it creates space, gives the opponent time to rethink what he's about to get into. And you measure as his momentum stops, sets you up wonderfully for your distance management should anything transpire after the shove. He has to stop going backwards before he can come forward. You could count one Mississippi if you wanted. That split second when he stops going backwards and starts to come forward (if he does) is like a moment in time. And there's always the option of following that shove, attached right to it - him going backwards, you going at him.

And while technically an assault, it can be argued in court a lot easier than a punch in the nose.

Like anything else, it has to be practiced. But it can be incredibly strong - well, heck, you're using both arms and your whole body. 

Sometimes fighting is getting the other person not to fight. I like a good shove.


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## frank raud (Feb 11, 2017)

Again, differences in training methods and application. In Combatives, I was taught to never deliver an edge of hand blow palm up. Why? In a system that has no defined blocks,  keeping your hands in front of you is a priority. If you throw a right hand EOH coming from your left shoulder area, that is also your block, as it protects your upper torso. Moving your arm to the outside to deliver a palm up strike exposes your chest, and the system has no blocks. Does not make the outside shuto Bill shows in the video incorrect, but from a different philosophy.


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## Paul_D (Feb 11, 2017)

Buka said:


> And while technically an assault, it can be argued in court a lot easier than a punch in the nose.


It's only assault if you use it when there is no threat, otherwise it's a pre-emptive strike, which is legal for many of us.


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## KangTsai (Feb 11, 2017)

frank raud said:


> As an opening gambit in hockey fighting, it is second nature to Canadians.


I personally want to see a roller skate/ice-skate boxing revolution. Would take hockey fights to a new level.


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## KangTsai (Feb 11, 2017)

Chops are great. It's like a backfist, but with more pressure on the other end.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> It wasn't until I regularly started hitting a heavy bag that these "underrated" strikes had much purpose for me.  I figured they were all stupid Hollywood/Kung Fu movie stuff.
> 
> Hitting a bag, a lot of these strikes were pretty weak for me.  After a few sessions and actually trying to develop them, they became incredibly powerful.  Not as strong as a solid cross or hook, but just about there.
> 
> ...


Crescent kick is one I should work on with someone who actually uses it. The version I learned in NGA has never felt useful to me, and I've never seen someone in NGA actually put it to use in anything other than a drill for that particular kick.


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## KangTsai (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Crescent kick is one I should work on with someone who actually uses it. The version I learned in NGA has never felt useful to me, and I've never seen someone in NGA actually put it to use in anything other than a drill for that particular kick.


The movement and muscle use of the roundhouse kick, or wheel kick, inherently is able to generate multiplicatively more force than a crescent kick. Because rather than a relatively isolated movement like the crescent kick, which draws most of its power from the hips, glute, groin and hamstring, the roundhouse uses a full body torque. You can still use it, sure. I think the axeing variation of the crescent is better.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Crescent kick is one I should work on with someone who actually uses it.


I use the outside crescent more for defense than for offense. When my opponent tries to sweep/trap my leg, I can use a waist high outside crescent kick to escape out of it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> Chops are great. It's like a backfist, but with more pressure on the other end.



There's another underutilized technique.  Backfist.  A true gift to martial artists.   It's like answering the phone.  "Hello?  Phone's for you, Flicka!"  Bam.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I use the outside crescent more for defense than for offense. When my opponent tries to sweep/trap my leg, I can use a waist high outside crescent kick to escape out of it.


We don't even have an outside crescent kick. Right now, I'm pretty sure my right hip would murder my entire family line if I tried one.


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## Headhunter (Feb 11, 2017)

They are absolutely effective and not just from a combat point of view but also if something ever goes to court you using an open hand strike doesn't look as devastating as punching a guy in the face. A friend of mine is a lawyer and he does shotokan and he said that to me years ago using a chop or heel palm etc will look better in court than a punch or a kick


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## Headhunter (Feb 11, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> It wasn't until I regularly started hitting a heavy bag that these "underrated" strikes had much purpose for me.  I figured they were all stupid Hollywood/Kung Fu movie stuff.
> 
> Hitting a bag, a lot of these strikes were pretty weak for me.  After a few sessions and actually trying to develop them, they became incredibly powerful.  Not as strong as a solid cross or hook, but just about there.
> 
> ...


For me I'm never going to do a crescent kick to the head or use it as an actual strike. I'd use it as a way to clear an arm out the way if they've got a weapon (e.g, a bottle, knife etc) use the kick to get it out the way then follow up. Never use it on a gun though. I say because I was training with a taekwondo guy once just in an informal way and I asked what he'd do against a gun so I held up my fingers representing a gun and he tried a crescent kick. I said okay then got a water pistol that looked a regular gun. I told him to do it again. He didn't know it was a water pistol and he tried it and I fired it before his kick was anywhere near me


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

The inside crescent kick is a lovely thing for clearing out an incoming strike, for example a kick.  That's about all I'd use it for.  I have no outside crescent kick and can't think of a good reason to have one.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> We don't even have an outside crescent kick.


This clip uses the waist high outside crescent kick to escape:

- sweep.
- cut,
- hook.
- lift,
- ...

It's a very important defense skill used in wrestling. When your opponent attacks your leg, you just move that leg out of the way.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 11, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> For me I'm never going to do a crescent kick to the head or use it as an actual strike. I'd use it as a way to clear an arm out the way if they've got a weapon (e.g, a bottle, knife etc) use the kick to get it out the way then follow up. Never use it on a gun though. I say because I was training with a taekwondo guy once just in an informal way and I asked what he'd do against a gun so I held up my fingers representing a gun and he tried a crescent kick. I said okay then got a water pistol that looked a regular gun. I told him to do it again. He didn't know it was a water pistol and he tried it and I fired it before his kick was anywhere near me



I'd like to see you use this effectively against any weapon. I don't think it's going to happen. Not very often, at any rate. Yes, it can be done. No, it's not exactly a high percentage move.



Bill Mattocks said:


> The inside crescent kick is a lovely thing for clearing out an incoming strike, for example a kick.  That's about all I'd use it for.  I have no outside crescent kick and can't think of a good reason to have one.



Performed correctly, a crescent kick (in either direction) is a strong, powerful strike. It's also, because of the way human hips work, one of the easiest kicks to use on a higher target. In a tournament setting, it's awfully easy to score with, especially when you bring it up behind your opponent and smack them in the back of the head. That's really tough to block. Done full power, such a strike can knock your opponent out, down, or at least disrupt their balance.


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## DanT (Feb 11, 2017)

Chops are great, I use them in sparring, but i hit the head instead of the throat, and they're pretty powerful.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Performed correctly, a crescent kick (in either direction) is a strong, powerful strike. It's also, because of the way human hips work, one of the easiest kicks to use on a higher target. In a tournament setting, it's awfully easy to score with, especially when you bring it up behind your opponent and smack them in the back of the head. That's really tough to block. Done full power, such a strike can knock your opponent out, down, or at least disrupt their balance.



I'll just say that *I* can't kick that high effectively with a crescent kick.  I am able to clear the top of a wavemaster at the lowest position; which is to say perhaps 5 feet high.  That's about all she wrote.  I do find the motion to be very powerful, fast, and as you said, difficult to block.  That is why I confine it to interrupting kicks, forward steps, and other such motions towards me.






Seen in Wansu kata of Isshinryu.  This karateka does not clearly demonstrate it but it is at :42 seconds in and again at :44.

The 'fumi komi' or crossover kick is another inside crescent kick, but applied to a different target with different focus.  Many do not realize that it's a crescent kick, event those who perform it.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The 'fumi komi' or crossover kick is another inside crescent kick, but applied to a different target with different focus.  Many do not realize that it's a crescent kick, event those who perform it.



Do you happen to have something showing this in use? The way it's shown in these videos, I'd consider it more of a stomp kick than a crescent kick. For it to count as what I'd call a crescent kick, the impact needs to be with the edge of the foot (inside edge, for the movement shown) while it's moving more or less parallel to the ground.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 11, 2017)

@Bill Mattocks I found this 



If that's typical of the application, then no, I wouldn't call it a crescent kick. I'd classify it as a stomp kick.
But I'm not about to claim that the way our system defines kicks is anything like universal.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Do you happen to have something showing this in use? The way it's shown in these videos, I'd consider it more of a stomp kick than a crescent kick. For it to count as what I'd call a crescent kick, the impact needs to be with the edge of the foot (inside edge, for the movement shown) while it's moving more or less parallel to the ground.



It's a crescent kick with the emphasis on a different syllable, if you will.  The core movement is the same in the beginning.  Knee lifts, hips pull the leg across center.  The difference is that as you noted, the power is delivered in the form of a stomp, and the movement to get the leg into position to do the stomp is simply how one gets to that position.

However, consider a person about to deliver this stomp kick and something gets in the way of the knee/hip movement.  The resulting strike is the essence of the crescent kick, delivered point of the knee instead of the edge of the foot.

I relate the two in the same manner that I consider an uppercut in Isshinryu to be a block to an incoming punch as well.  The movement of the arm extending towards the opponent's face happens to intersect the location where the incoming punch is arriving; this rudders the punch away and actually guides the uppercut into the opponent's face more forcefully.  That may not make an uppercut a proper block, but it sure can be one if need be.  

I was just considering the core motion.  Knee lift, hip turn, power moving inside (or outside in the 'Wansu' example).


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> @Bill Mattocks I found this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Right; not quite the way we do a fumi komi, but I get the basic notion they are showing.  No, in that sense, it is not a crescent kick in any manner that I can see.  Our fumi komi crosses the entire body; the right foot stomps down well past the left edge of the body.  It is also a long scraping kick and not just the 'stomp' at the end.  Designed to bring the inside heel of perhaps a shod foot painfully down the inside of a shin, terminating in a stomp to the foot.

The fumi komi does not generate power the same way a crescent kick does.  But the core movement, I argue, is the same.  One merely needs to recognize it.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 11, 2017)

@Bill Mattocks I see what you're saying, but...
I'm watching the video you posted again, and I don't see any real power in the lateral movement. There's minimal hip movement, no rotation to speak of...
There's plenty of power in the stomp, though.




While there are certainly some things in this video that could be picked apart (like turning completely around), the basic technique is sound.
There's a ton of hip movement with rotation of the pelvis and torso lending power to the kick.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> @Bill Mattocks I see what you're saying, but...
> I'm watching the video you posted again, and I don't see any real power in the lateral movement. There's minimal hip movement, no rotation to speak of...
> There's plenty of power in the stomp, though.
> 
> ...



I agree that the videos I posted did not generate power with the hip movement.  That's why I said they're missing the goodies that are in the movement.

Sometimes I think these are the 'secrets' that everybody whispers about.  It's not a secret, the ability to generate power in this way is right there in the move; the karateka just has to open their eyes and mind to see it.  When applying the fumi komi, for example, I try to mindful that there is power to be had in the lateral movement of the hip and knees and to generate that power, not just 'lift the knee and move the leg over the target' like a derrick crane.

With regard to the video you posted, I see that our crescent kick and yours are slightly different if this video represents your crescent kick.  I see a leg fully extended as it performs the clobbering motion.  In our case, the knee comes up first, then the leg extends.  It's almost like a high front snap kick that retracts along an arc instead of straight back; with the moment of contact being more the heel than the inside of the foot.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> With regard to the video you posted, I see that our crescent kick and yours are slightly different if this video represents your crescent kick.  I see a leg fully extended as it performs the clobbering motion.  In our case, the knee comes up first, then the leg extends.  It's almost like a high front snap kick that retracts along an arc instead of straight back; with the moment of contact being more the heel than the inside of the foot.



The extended leg will have more power, but be slower to the target and thus easier to block/evade. I teach both ways, because both have their place. 
As a matter of fact, I had people working the various crescent kicks just this morning, and we spent some time specifically considering the pros and cons of both the straight and bent leg methods.


----------



## JP3 (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I blame William Shatner.



Captain Kirk had a mean tomoenage though...

Coming out of Korean styles, and never really being taught the Korean nomenclature for what we were doing in TKD & HKD (*shrug*), we called the shuto the knifehand and the haito a ridgehand, but once I sort of turned sideways on traditional TKD and went off to the more... stern... streets of hapkido, I really enjoyed all the different angles, entries, striking points etc. associated with both. For example, I was once light sparring with a guy who happened to keep his lead hand low, since he  had been, and was used to be training in, a TKD school where nearly all they dealt with was kicks. After I told him 3 times his hands were low, and he'd bring them up for a second or two then they'd drop back down as he assayed a kick combination, I showed him. Very quick, light little snappy ridgehand, came straight out from the traditional boxing stance I was in, right hand flattening, and corkscrewing in to strike, slightly differently than Bill said (about the striking surface only) with the  base of the thumb, the thumb's first knuckle, and the base knuckle of the forefinger (3 hard little points) and caught him on his left temple.  Not truly "hard" at all, as all I was trying to do was get his attention.

Problem was, he looked off in space for about a second and a half, then slowly slumped to the floor in a kneeling, then hands and knees position.  My very first experience with pressure points, apparently.  Open hand strikes are sort of tuned to those, should you choose to really work on them, apparently. I don't.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The inside crescent kick is a lovely thing for clearing out an incoming strike, for example a kick.  That's about all I'd use it for.  I have no outside crescent kick and can't think of a good reason to have one.


I've always thought it would be useful for that, but mine is too slow and clunky.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> @Bill Mattocks I found this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's how we'd identify it, too. Probably another of those situations where different systems have different reasons for calling it that way. For us, a crescent kick has to pass across the body in an arc-ish motion.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've always thought it would be useful for that, but mine is too slow and clunky.


Pick up your heel like the floor is hot, and start the kick, from there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Pick up your heel like the floor is hot, and start the kick, from there.


It's not the "up" that's problematic. "Up" and "down" work well. It's the lateral element that's complete crap. I have a student with several years of Shotokan - I might ask him to show me his crescent kick. I'd love to get it to something useful, and it's just a neglected part of our art, so far as I can tell.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's not the "up" that's problematic. "Up" and "down" work well. It's the lateral element that's complete crap. I have a student with several years of Shotokan - I might ask him to show me his crescent kick. I'd love to get it to something useful, and it's just a neglected part of our art, so far as I can tell.


The idea is to make it more out and back, to a tight, heel under butt, position; so that you can gauge, a controlled step, as a landing.


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## JR 137 (Feb 11, 2017)

I don't use crescent kicks for blocks or anything like that.  I've heard of it, but honestly only seen Jackie Chan do it.

I only use them as kicks to the head.  Most people in my dojo really only use them as leg stretches during line drills. I'll mainly use them at the beginning or end of a combination, most often as a beginning.  Throw two in a row, wait for my opponent to try blocking high a third time, then bury a front kick into their stomach.  Or I'll use it in close range to the side of the head.  Or I'll turn it into an axe kick coming straight down on the collar bone or sternum.  Like everything, it's all in the setup.  Set it up wrong, and it'll fail.  Set it up right, and they never saw it coming.  I use inside-out far more than outside-in.

Since my hips are the way they are, it's either a crescent kick to the head or roundhouse to the thigh.  I can easily reach a front kick to an equally tall opponent in the nose, but that's not a high percentage move by any means for me.

When I first started hitting a bag regularly, it was ridiculously weak.  My foot practically bounced off the bag.  It was more of a slap than anything else.    After a few weeks, it was quite powerful; I'd bury my foot in the bag.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Crescent kick is one I should work on with someone who actually uses it. The version I learned in NGA has never felt useful to me, and I've never seen someone in NGA actually put it to use in anything other than a drill for that particular kick.


I never cared for the crescent kick, but I have to say that the version I'm learning in Capoeira seems much more effective than what I've seen elsewhere. I've still got a lot of work to do before it catches up to the rest of my arsenal though.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 11, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> The movement and muscle use of the roundhouse kick, or wheel kick, inherently is able to generate multiplicatively more force than a crescent kick. Because rather than a relatively isolated movement like the crescent kick, which draws most of its power from the hips, glute, groin and hamstring, the roundhouse uses a full body torque. You can still use it, sure. I think the axeing variation of the crescent is better.


The version of the crescent kick my Capoira instructor taught me is absolutely a full body torque. Very different from what I've learned elsewhere.


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## Juany118 (Feb 11, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I think the reason people write it off is because they think it's designed to be used in "real fights or the UFC" rather than civilian self protection from non consensual violence.
> 
> Also people think you are supposed to strike with the hand, rather than the forearm.



The "chop" with the forearm is actually a modification for those who don't do the body hardening of the hand or practice the technique properly because both are time consuming, at least in the Ryushinkan I took (and also in the WC I currently study).  The hand, if properly toughened and then the proper technique applied, has the potential to do more damage than a punch and some palm strike due to physics, same force impacting a smaller surface = more force per square inch.


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## Juany118 (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As a so-called 'karate chop', it can be used on a neck or a collarbone.  I think most people can visualize how that would work.  Straight down like a tomahawk chop on the collarbone, or palm up in a sideways motion to the neck, base of the skull, etc.



I find that it is also very useful if you are aiming for the area just beneath the cheek bone/orbit for a few reasons.
1. due to the narrow nature of the striking surface it can fit in there and impact part of the Trigeminal Nerve.  This is one of the physiological cause of knockouts.
2. if you overshoot you hit the eye itself
3. undershoot and you hit the mandible (which doesn't like moving sideways and also causes issues with the Trigeminal Nerve.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I'd use it as a way to clear an arm out the way if they've got a weapon (e.g, a bottle, knife etc) use the kick to get it out the way then follow up.



It is a bit dangerous to do against a knife as it would be an easy way to cut your foot.



Dirty Dog said:


> It's also, because of the way human hips work, one of the easiest kicks to use on a higher target.



It is also one of the easiest kicks to learn.


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## Headhunter (Feb 12, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> It is a bit dangerous to do against a knife as it would be an easy way to cut your foot.
> 
> 
> 
> It is also one of the easiest kicks to learn.


I'd rather have a cut foot than a knife in the stomach. Anyway you're wearing shoes so it wouldn't do much damage. In any fight with a knife involved you'll most likely get cut I'd rather get cut on the foot than the wrists


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I'd rather have a cut foot than a knife in the stomach. Anyway you're wearing shoes so it wouldn't do much damage.



If you cut your foot and don't succeed in disarming the knife you could have both.


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## Buka (Feb 12, 2017)

I f you're a kicker, like a lot of guys here are, that kick probably isn't your _go to_ in times of real danger. Sure it's okay, but if you were being pressed it's not what you would initially think of to rip a guy in half. At least not a guy who moves into kicks.

You guys that can really kick would have field day sparring me (and mine). I would be so dead I'd be sleeping in a chair covered in ice. But there's no way that kick would ever come close to landing. Too easy to jam, block, evade, dump, take down, get under - just turn against the kicker. Don't get me wrong, I teach that kick too. As I do every kick. But when you're a fighter, and truly learn kicking - that's one you learn to take advantage of real fast.

I've been hit by exactly one of those in forty years of fighting. And I'm talking about guys who like to throw them.

As for throwing it against a knife attack...might be a good idea to practice that against someone who doesn't train in your dojo.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> The idea is to make it more out and back, to a tight, heel under butt, position; so that you can gauge, a controlled step, as a landing.


I'd have to see that - it doesn't actually sound like the same mechanics as the way I was taught the kick. Which may mean it's a different kick, or it may be why my kick feels so weak.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd have to see that - it doesn't actually sound like the same mechanics as the way I was taught the kick. Which may mean it's a different kick, or it may be why my kick feels so weak.


I'm not a fan, of them but it would look like a front kick that went panoramic.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd have to see that - it doesn't actually sound like the same mechanics as the way I was taught the kick. Which may mean it's a different kick, or it may be why my kick feels so weak.


The crescent knee strike is an under rated tech. It is the pre-crescent kick.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm not a fan, of them but it would look like a front kick that went panoramic.


That's an image I may be able to work from. I'll tinker a bit with taking my front kick into it, rather than starting it as its own kick.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> The crescent knee strike is an under rated tech. It is the pre-crescent kick.


Hmm...I'm not picturing that, at all, unless you're rotating your body through for the knee? Just to clarify, what we call a "Crescent" kick comes up one side (usually about shoulder-width between sides), across on a short arc, then down on the other side - we stay facing front for the entire kick. This is always done outside-to-inside (so right leg moves right-to-left). I'm not picturing that, at all, with a knee.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm...I'm not picturing that, at all, unless you're rotating your body through for the knee? Just to clarify, what we call a "Crescent" kick comes up one side (usually about shoulder-width between sides), across on a short arc, then down on the other side - we stay facing front for the entire kick. This is always done outside-to-inside (so right leg moves right-to-left). I'm not picturing that, at all, with a knee.


Well, you just knee to one side, and swing it like you are swinging a bat. We have one technique, where he is bent over and you are behind him. You start a crescent, hit the knee, swing up, hit the groin, and check the opposite leg, in one swing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Well, you just knee to one side, and swing it like you are swinging a bat. We have one technique, where he is bent over and you are behind him. You start a crescent, hit the knee, swing up, hit the groin, and check the opposite leg, in one swing.


AH! I thought you were _*using*_ the knee, not_* striking *_the knee! Much clearer that way.


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## JP3 (Feb 12, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm not a fan, of them but it would look like a front kick that went panoramic.



Roger that. In TKD I had developed a set of front leg kicks which I used, after I'd watched the Bill Wallace videos way too much (about how he concealed which kick he was doing by chambering all 3 of his kicks the same way, which I never was able to do), but it did start to work after a few years of actually paying attention to it.  I had what I called a snap outer crescent kick which went sort of like this:  The mechanics in the leg itself (not hips or foot) worked exactly as a high front kick which I'd throw at the opponent's opposite shoulder area, depending on how they held their hand guard. As the kick would snap, I'd also fire a snap-twitch of my hip flexors and leg abductors to flare the kick (describing a right leg kick here) from my left to my right.  At the same time, my support leg would drive forward and intot he opponent, sometimes describing the skip-in hop seen in TKD people.  When I'd get the best effect is when the blade edge of my foot would catch the opponent under the jawline, while rising. My buddies described it as being caught by an uppercut, but delivering the kick didn't feel like that at all, it felt like I was slapping their face with my foot, inside to out.

My own Inner crescent, almost exclusively to convert to Axe once over what I was interested in hitting, which was usually collarbone. Big leg, big weight on structure, typically operated to drive them to a knee. Glad groin strikes weren't legal, as a certain target area was literally open right there, as it were.  The thought makes me cringe, now. Bad habit that. "Here! Punch This!" 

It is interesting to me that, as I was converting my TKD/HKD background into full-contact Muay Thai, learning the knee strikes (yeah Gerry, there's a method of turning the hips while a rising knee describes the same arc of a crescent kick which you can use to deliver knee-to-rib strikes), the crescent kicks just... disappeared.  At the "end" of that 5 years-ish, my kick arsenal which I actually used had dropped significantly. No more just trying to "score." Nope, now it was "Hit, and hit hard, so they can't hit you back."  So, crescent kicks went away, but the front snap stayed, in addition to MT's own push-style front kick, spinning heel stayed, but the spinning wheel kick didn't. TKD style roundhouse kick went Poof, but the MT style of shin striking surface round kick got a huge portion of training and use time... and was hardly ever delivered above the hip socket, most often from the lower portion of the quadricepts down. Think on that TKD people. It was definitely a change of style.  Went from headhunter kicker to a guy who eliminates the opponent's foundation.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm...I'm not picturing that, at all, unless you're rotating your body through for the knee? Just to clarify, what we call a "Crescent" kick comes up one side (usually about shoulder-width between sides), across on a short arc, then down on the other side - we stay facing front for the entire kick. This is always done outside-to-inside (so right leg moves right-to-left). I'm not picturing that, at all, with a knee.


On a related note, to what we are talking about, our school teaches the round house punch, as a straight punch, with some tricky footwork, so that you can go around the guard.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> On a related note, to what we are talking about, our school teaches the round house punch, as a straight punch, with some tricky footwork, so that you can go around the guard.


I'd like to see that. Not a "roundhouse punch" in my vocabulary, but still sounds interesting, and on the receiving end would carry some of the characteristics of a roundhouse.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd like to see that. Not a "roundhouse punch" in my vocabulary, but still sounds interesting, and on the receiving end would carry some of the characteristics of a roundhouse.


Try it yourself. Just before throwing a punch off the lead hand, take your rear foot straight to the right (on the ball of your foot) , turn and face as you do a straight punch; so, you start facing 12:00, rear cross-over, to end up facing 10:30.


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## O'Malley (Feb 12, 2017)

It kind of sounds like what my Kajukenbo sifu used to call the "Filipino hook punch" or at least the application would be similar.

Basically the punch is done either with the lead or rear hand, you keep your fist vertical and you make a circular movement to the inside, moving parallel to the ground, like using a big, imaginary coffee grinder.







It looks and feels halfway between a straight and an ordinary long hook punch. It actually is a very intriguing technique, I'd like to try it out more in sparring but the times I did land it were when I stepped to the outside like you described. That's also the way the instructors did it.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2017)

And, on a related note, spinning back kicks are just back kicks, precede by a reverse close-kneel.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 13, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Try it yourself. Just before throwing a punch off the lead hand, take your rear foot straight to the right (on the ball of your foot) , turn and face as you do a straight punch; so, you start facing 12:00, rear cross-over, to end up facing 10:30.


Which side are you starting forward, when you say step to the right? (We don't always stand with the same side forward, so it's ambiguous when I read it.)


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Which side are you starting forward, when you say step to the right? (We don't always stand with the same side forward, so it's ambiguous when I read it.)


Right foot forward, right hand punching, left leg steps to the right, and up the circle.


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## Headhunter (Feb 15, 2017)

Another thing the chop is great for is a bit to the bicep if you can time it right. I used it a lot in my kickboxing and mma sparring and I remember in one fight I used and the guy started complaining to the ref that it was illegal lol. Just to note that wasn't a proper chop because of the glove but It was the same mechanics


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I never cared for the crescent kick, but I have to say that the version I'm learning in Capoeira seems much more effective than what I've seen elsewhere. I've still got a lot of work to do before it catches up to the rest of my arsenal though.



The capo is hips forward which gives it a bit extra pep. (ok this could also be a front kick i cant tell for sure.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 16, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Right foot forward, right hand punching, left leg steps to the right, and up the circle.


Thanks.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The capo is hips forward which gives it a bit extra pep. (ok this could also be a front kick i cant tell for sure.)


My instructor also uses more hip rotation than what is shown in that clip.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm...I'm not picturing that, at all, unless you're rotating your body through for the knee? Just to clarify, what we call a "Crescent" kick comes up one side (usually about shoulder-width between sides), across on a short arc, then down on the other side - we stay facing front for the entire kick. This is always done outside-to-inside (so right leg moves right-to-left). I'm not picturing that, at all, with a knee.





gpseymour said:


> AH! I thought you were _*using*_ the knee, not_* striking *_the knee! Much clearer that way.



Muay Thai curve knee:





Basically, you open your hips away from your opponent while raising your knee, then rotate your hips inwards so that the side of the knee joint impacts the target. Generally this is used from the clinch, so you will also pull your opponent into the strike.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 16, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Muay Thai curve knee:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, not one I've looked at before. I'll give that some experimentation when my hip heals up.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Ah, not one I've looked at before. I'll give that some experimentation when my hip heals up.


The main reason for it is that it allows you to attack at angles and ranges where the straight knee is being blocked or stifled.


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## InternetMartialArts.com (Feb 16, 2017)

My favorite sparring technique is a sweep to a back fist. You sweep their leg by quickly hooking their achilles with your foot and then hit them with a back fist. The sweep is always a great distraction and the back fist often catches them off guard!


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## chrissyp (Feb 17, 2017)

InternetMartialArts.com said:


> My favorite sparring technique is a sweep to a back fist. You sweep their leg by quickly hooking their achilles with your foot and then hit them with a back fist. The sweep is always a great distraction and the back fist often catches them off guard!


 I LOVE THAT!!! The sweep is one of the most underrated techniques ever! It's easily one of the best things I learn from switching to Muay Thai to Shotokan!!


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## frank raud (Feb 17, 2017)

Various techniques go through phases of popularity. When Pride was a viable MMA organization, folks were impressed with the power of the slap, Bas  Rutten being a prime example. The slap has fallen out of popularity since then.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 17, 2017)

The "leg twist" can be an underrated technique used in wrestling.






If your opponent uses his right leg to twist on your right leg, it's very hard to get out of it the moment that your right knee is bending to your left.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 19, 2017)

chrissyp said:


> So this is something i've been playing with...Is this a "practical" technique? I'm starting to think "yes".
> 
> For the longest time, i've wrote this technique off, thinking it couldn't generate power, You never see it done in a real fight or UFC, the angles were not right, ext, but then I started to play with it..
> 
> ...



The '*karate-chop*' aka *knife-hand strike* aka *EOH *(edge of hand) strike is exceptionally effective.  The term 'karate-chop' probable comes from Hollywood.  Knife-hand strike from many karate circles and EOH from WWII Combatives (Fairbair, Applegate, Sykes, Nelson and O'Neill as a few examples).  In fact, the EOH along with the chin jab are a staple of WWII combatives.  

I've used this strike effectively while on-duty against numerous violent and out-of-control felons and it's simple and effective.  My main target area is the side of the neck, sometimes referred to as the brachial plexus in some circles.  Other good target areas are the temples, under the ear, behind the knee, kidneys, under the nose and of course the throat.  The angle you find yourself in when attempting the strike determines the target area.  

Some schools advocate thumb in while WWII combatives teaches thumb out.  Either can and is effective.  

One does not necessarily need to strike from an arcing motion.  A short, linear motion can also generate quite enough power to be effective.  Of course positioning and target area are vital to success.  

This can/is used to set up further techniques such as unbalancing the attacker setting them up for a fall/throw/grab.


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## Buka (Feb 20, 2017)

InternetMartialArts.com said:


> My favorite sparring technique is a sweep to a back fist. You sweep their leg by quickly hooking their achilles with your foot and then hit them with a back fist. The sweep is always a great distraction and the back fist often catches them off guard!





chrissyp said:


> I LOVE THAT!!! The sweep is one of the most underrated techniques ever! It's easily one of the best things I learn from switching to Muay Thai to Shotokan!!



Never lose your love for sweeps. Ever. And don't stay stagnant on what you already do, explore more sweeps.


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2017)

Throat grabs are under rated. Because everybody thinks they are this.





rather than a variation of collar control.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Throat grabs are under rated.


You can turn a throat grab into an elbow strike on the head any time you want to.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Throat grabs are under rated. Because everybody thinks they are this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. I've never thought of a throat grab as collar control, but as a choke (which nobody but Darth Vader does with just one hand). Hmm...are you talking about a grip behind the neck, then?


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Interesting. I've never thought of a throat grab as collar control, but as a choke (which nobody but Darth Vader does with just one hand). Hmm...are you talking about a grip behind the neck, then?



Front of the neck.  Just not arm out straight like a gumby.  And head wrestle. And arm control with the other hand.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Front of the neck.  Just not arm out straight like a gumby.  And head wrestle. And arm control with the other hand.


A bit foreign to my approach, but I think I'm picturing what you're describing. I need to experiment with that a bit, see how it feels when someone uses the neck that way and how it affects transitions to technique. I'm hoping to drop by my old school this week. Maybe a chance then, depending what they're working on.


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## CB Jones (Feb 26, 2017)

A Karate Chop is a great technique in a real fight.

I have a friend that while fighting a guy high on PCP my friend ended up breaking both the guy's collarbones with Chopping techniques.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> A Karate Chop is a great technique in a real fight.
> 
> I have a friend that while fighting a guy high on PCP my friend ended up breaking both the guy's collarbones with Chopping techniques.


I've got this, Grab the collar bone, push, or strike on the Jaw with the other hand, thing I have been meaning to try, but I would sooner, downward heel palm smash, or finger tip strike down, and behind the collar bone, before I would chop at it. I just see a broken metacarpal, with a chop, but I am delicate.


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## CB Jones (Feb 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I've got this, Grab the collar bone, push, or strike on the Jaw with the other hand, thing I have been meaning to try, but I would sooner, downward heel palm smash, or finger tip strike down, and behind the collar bone, before I would chop at it. I just see a broken metacarpal, with a chop, but I am delicate.



My friend actually used fists in a chopping motion .....actually I guess it was more of a hammer fist.


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I've got this, Grab the collar bone, push, or strike on the Jaw with the other hand, thing I have been meaning to try, but I would sooner, downward heel palm smash, or finger tip strike down, and behind the collar bone, before I would chop at it. I just see a broken metacarpal, with a chop, but I am delicate.



You can hook the collar bones from a full nelson. I have tried it and never really managed to make it work.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 28, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> My friend actually used fists in a chopping motion .....actually I guess it was more of a hammer fist.



No problem there, it is also highly effective.  Whether as a chopping motion or a whipping motion (where the hand acts like a wet dish towel).

For an example of the ax hand;

WWII combatives


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You can hook the collar bones from a full nelson. I have tried it and never really managed to make it work.


I'm having trouble picturing that as useful from either side of the full Nelson. When applying, you'd lose leverage. From inside it, you'd be using your arms at their weakest range, assuming you could reach the right spot, at all.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You can hook the collar bones from a full nelson. I have tried it and never really managed to make it work.


I don't have an older brother, and my uncle has passed away; so, there is nobody left in the world, that would ever try to put me in a full Nelson.


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