# Horse stance?



## Zoltan97 (Dec 29, 2016)

I Googled it and I think I have nightmares! How in the world is someone supposed to stand that way and what arts do this?

I'm thinking of joining my school's TKD team when I get back. Please tell me TKD doesn't do this!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2016)

It's supposed to be a good leg-strengthening exercise, for one thing. I wouldn't know. I feel about it the way some feel about push-ups.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> I Googled it and I think I have nightmares! How in the world is someone supposed to stand that way and what arts do this?
> 
> I'm thinking of joining my school's TKD team when I get back. Please tell me TKD doesn't do this!


The

- hip throw,
- shoulder throw,
- embracing throw,
- bear hug,
- ...

all require to have a low horse stance.

The

- horse stance,
- bow arrow stance,
- golden rooster stance

are the 3 major stances used by the throwing art.

When someone gets a "bear hug" on you from behind with your arms surrounded by his arms, a quick low horse stance dropping with both elbows expanded outside can free you from that "bear hug".

The "bear hug" starts from a low horse stance.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 29, 2016)

You don't want easy. 

Anyone can do easy.


----------



## Zoltan97 (Dec 29, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The
> 
> - hip throw,
> - shoulder throw,
> ...



Hmm... Maybe the pics I saw were advanced horse stances, I've done hip and shoulder throws and haven't been in those stances. Or maybe I'm so used to getting that low I don't even realize it...?


----------



## Zoltan97 (Dec 29, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It's supposed to be a good leg-strengthening exercise, for one thing. I wouldn't know. I feel about it the way some feel about push-ups.



So then you know my pain regarding pushups!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> Hmm... Maybe the pics I saw were advanced horse stances, I've done hip and shoulder throws and haven't been in those stances. Or maybe I'm so used to getting that low I don't even realize it...?


The "shoulder throw" training will require you to hold on your opponent's waist belt and your shoulder has to drop below his waist. That's a very low horse stance. If you can move freely in low horse stance, you can move freely in high horse stance. The other way around may not be true.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> So then you know my pain regarding pushups!


Of course. Why do you think I'm so sadistic about them??


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "shoulder throw" training will require you to hold on your opponent's waist belt and your shoulder has to drop below his waist. That's a very low horse stance. If you can move freely in low horse stance, you can move freely in high horse stance. The other way around may not be true.


Shoulder below his waist? You're right that's a very low stance. For what reason?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Shoulder below his waist? You're right that's a very low stance. For what reason?


If you train "shoulder throw" by holding on your opponent's waist belt, your "shoulder throw" will work on short opponent as well. Not many people have gone through this kind of serious training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you train "shoulder throw" by holding on your opponent's waist belt, your "shoulder throw" will work on short opponent as well. Not many people have gone through this kind of serious training.


That would be outside the principles we use for the shoulder throw, which is why I asked. The waist belt doesn't allow the proper use of the uke's weight for our throw. We also use a narrower stance, rather than horse stance. And we simply wouldn't use a shoulder throw on someone significantly shorter - again, it violates some of our principles so isn't a good fit for NGA.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That would be outside the principles we use for the shoulder throw, which is why I asked. The waist belt doesn't allow the proper use of the uke's weight for our throw. We also use a narrower stance, rather than horse stance. And we simply wouldn't use a shoulder throw on someone significantly shorter - again, it violates some of our principles so isn't a good fit for NGA.


It's similar to train your kick while you stand in front of a table. This will force you to bend your knee and let your knee to touch on your chest before you kick out. Again, it's for training. In fighting, that will make your kick too slow.

The horse stance used in the throwing art is a bit less than shoulder width which is narrower than the one used in the striking art.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's similar to train your kick while you stand in front of a table. This will force you to bend your knee and let your knee to touch on your chest before you kick out. Again, it's for training. In fighting, that will make your kick too slow.
> 
> The horse stance used in the throwing art is a bit less than shoulder width which is narrower than the one used in the striking art.


Okay, to me, horse stance (jigotai) is a wide stance. We don't have a formal name for the narrow stance.

It's an interesting approach to the shoulder throw. It would definitely improve the range of the throw. A large range isn't all that key to us - we wouldn't go low into a shoulder throw (we have another throw that fills that gap). I'm trying to remember how the shoulder throw was trained at my Judo dojo, but that was too many years ago. We probably trained it lower there, since you'd expect to have to sneak it in under a competitor. For that, I can see where that deep training would help.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It's supposed to be a good leg-strengthening exercise, for one thing.


It is. the stance training strengthens ligaments and tendons in the knees along with muscle.

In Jow Ga there are a few techniques that only work with a low stance.  It doesn't have to be super low because it depends on the height of your opponent.  If your opponent is the same height as you then the stance has to be considerably low.
You can see in this video how these guys move in and out of the low stance


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> It is. the stance training strengthens ligaments and tendons in the knees along with muscle.
> 
> In Jow Ga there are a few techniques that only work with a low stance.  It doesn't have to be super low because it depends on the height of your opponent.  If your opponent is the same height as you then the stance has to be considerably low.
> You can see in this video how these guys move in and out of the low stance


Well, crap, now you're going to tell me if I go back and do more horse stance practice, my knees might get better. Damn you, JGW.

We only have a few throws that require us to get up under uke like that. We have a few others that let us drop down under uke (so, sacrificing stance to bring body weight to bear), and another group that lets us come over the top of uke (breaking structure from the head, down). Part of our approach is using the technique that fits their body size. So, something like a shoulder throw is normally for someone roughly your size or taller. Something like Pull-down from the Rear is for people roughly your size or shorter. Something like Bear Hug throw is for someone roughly your size. Those are guidelines - it's the "feel" that leads into the right technique, rather than their height. If their weight is high enough, we can treat them as taller. If it's very low (regardless of them being taller than us), the taller-person technique is right out.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> I Googled it and I think I have nightmares! How in the world is someone supposed to stand that way and what arts do this?
> 
> I'm thinking of joining my school's TKD team when I get back. Please tell me TKD doesn't do this!


Can you post the link that got you troubled over it?  Then we can maybe make some more directed comments.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 30, 2016)

My style uses a somewhat higher and more natural horse stance, called seuinchin. I can't speak for TKD. 

You get used to it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 30, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> I Googled it and I think I have nightmares! How in the world is someone supposed to stand that way and what arts do this?
> 
> I'm thinking of joining my school's TKD team when I get back. Please tell me TKD doesn't do this!



Never dealt with this in TKD, but I did TKD before it was an Olympic sport. You find this type of stance training in a lot of Chinese Martial arts styles. IT works for leg strength and learning about connections within the body, particularly upper and lower.


----------



## Saheim (Dec 30, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> I Googled it and I think I have nightmares! How in the world is someone supposed to stand that way and* what arts do this?*
> 
> I'm thinking of joining my school's TKD team when I get back. Please tell me TKD doesn't do this!



More experienced folks have already explained the purpose of the stance, but no one (that I saw) answered the question in bold, so I'll give ya the bad news - Everything I've ever trained, except Muay Thai.  Maybe it is just the places I've trained, but the Horse stance seems to be a staple in MA.  It would be like wanting to box, but not wanting to jump rope.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Dec 30, 2016)

If your club does do it then get on with it. Yeah it hurts but any kind of exercise hurts


----------



## Zoltan97 (Dec 30, 2016)

So this was the pic that popped up with the description on Google. I feel stupid (hopefully you all don't think I'm lazy for complaining!) but in our club we don't call it horse stance nor do we stretch with it. Maybe this picture is an extreme version of it?


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> View attachment 20314
> 
> So this was the pic that popped up with the description on Google. I feel stupid (hopefully you all don't think I'm lazy for complaining!) but in our club we don't call it horse stance nor do we stretch with it. Maybe this picture is an extreme version of it?


Thanks, and yes this is fairly extreme, used for developing that leg strength.

This kind of training is often found within many of the Chinese methods, as it relates to the concept that powerful technique is delivered with a full-body connection and not, for an example, simply throwing a punch with the strength of the arm and shoulder alone.  That full-body connection starts with the feet and leg, and drives power into the torso and down the arm to the fist.  So developing strong legs is part and parcel to having powerful techniques.

It isn't just for punching either.  Joint manipulations and grappling can also benefit from a full-body application of power, and that always comes back to having strong legs.

However, strong legs alone are not the answer.  One also needs to work on how that strength is used, what movement and other mechanisms come into play in order to take advantage of that leg strength.  So it is part of a larger training regimen and philosophy that is common to many of the martial arts.  But not everything is done in this kind of deep horse stance.  Application of technique can be from anywhere.  But if you have built up that leg strength, along with an understanding of how to use it, then you can harness that power from any position.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2016)

Keep in mind, the term "Kung fu" does not mean fighting methods.  That is a misinterpretation of the term.  It actually means "skill acquired through hard work".  That skill can be anything, including the fighting methods.

But my point is, it's HARD WORK.  

All martial training, if done right, and if you intend to develop some genuine skill, is a whole lot of hard work.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Dec 30, 2016)

Some stances are used for fighting, others for training. The lower horse stance (in my opinion) is a training stance, to help strengthen the legs. I would never go into a lower horse stance during a fight because there are far better stances to use, but I still practice the lower horse stance for body conditioning.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 30, 2016)

Tony Yang - Bajiquan stance training


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, to me, horse stance (jigotai) is a wide stance.


This is how wide the "horse stance" used in the "hip throw".


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I would never go into a lower horse stance during a fight ...


One time I sparred with a Karate guy, I dropped into a low horse stance. Since my opponent was used to high kick (I don't think he had ever trained low kick), he didn't know what to do with me. Soon he gave up and said, "I hate to spar with you Kung Fu guys. You guys fighting stance are just too low".

When you drop down into low horse stance, you don't have much space to protect. When your opponent kicks at you, it's easy to grab his kicking leg, move in, and take him down. IMO, that's a good strategy and it's called "earth strategy" (earth against wood, low horse stance against kick).


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2016)

IMO, this horse stance is too wide.

When you put your feet together, your base is small. You have poor balance. When your move your feet apart, you base is increased, your balance is also increased. When you have reached to one point and you further move your feet apart, even if your base is increased, you balance will decrease.

In other words, there is only one width that your horse stance can have the maximum balance, that will be about your "shoulder width".


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> View attachment 20314
> 
> So this was the pic that popped up with the description on Google. I feel stupid (hopefully you all don't think I'm lazy for complaining!) but in our club we don't call it horse stance nor do we stretch with it. Maybe this picture is an extreme version of it?



Not sure, but I use the chair stance. No idea if that is real or not, but I do it as if sitting in dinner table chair. The traditional wooden ones. Anyway I commend on the balence there, but are you're knees not screaming?


----------



## Zoltan97 (Dec 30, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Not sure, but I use the chair stance. No idea if that is real or not, but I do it as if sitting in dinner table chair. The traditional wooden ones. Anyway I commend on the balence there, but are you're knees not screaming?



I'm not a 40 something year old man so I wouldn't know  I got the pic off Google.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 30, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> I'm not a 40 something year old man so I wouldn't know  I got the pic off Google.



Huh, you ain't no whipper slapper for long, I can tell you  Anyway, mine is more down to my scoliosis and balance issues. I tell you what though, try the chair combined with dynamic stretches back and forth. Well actually I should that is what I like doing. It may or not be a bit dodgy as an idea.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That would be outside the principles we use for the shoulder throw, which is why I asked. The waist belt doesn't allow the proper use of the uke's weight for our throw. We also use a narrower stance, rather than horse stance. And we simply wouldn't use a shoulder throw on someone significantly shorter - again, it violates some of our principles so isn't a good fit for NGA.








You can do it without landing on your knees. But you will have to have strong legs.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Well, crap, now you're going to tell me if I go back and do more horse stance practice, my knees might get better. Damn you, JGW.


lol.. only if you have your weight centered correctly so that you feel it in your thighs and not in your knees. Weight over your knees has the opposite effect and works a different set of tendons and ligaments which aren't as strong to begin with.

Second thought.  The correction on that may be it works the same tendons but at their weakest and not their strongest point and forces more pressure and tension on the ligaments.  This is probably a more accurate statement without me breaking out body charts.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2016)

Saheim said:


> Maybe it is just the places I've trained, but the Horse stance seems to be a staple in MA


Muay Thai horse stance training?





Horse stance, cross stance, cat stance training going on?  Especially with the Tiger Steps boxing walk at 3:52.  I guess it just depends on the type of Muay Thai school a person goes to as to how much significance the school puts on stance training place.  My brother trains Muay Thai at his school and they don't do horse stance.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> View attachment 20314
> 
> So this was the pic that popped up with the description on Google. I feel stupid (hopefully you all don't think I'm lazy for complaining!) but in our club we don't call it horse stance nor do we stretch with it. Maybe this picture is an extreme version of it?


This picture would be extreme for Jow Ga Kung Fu.  Students are taught that when it gets that low, it places unnecessary stress on the knees.  The stance that the students train is something that we can move in and out of without changing the height of our stance.  I should be able to go from horse to bow or to cat with ease without having to raise the level of my stance.  If I need to move quickly I should be able to move in and out of that horse stance with very little problems.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One time I sparred with a Karate guy, I dropped into a low horse stance. Since my opponent was used to high kick (I don't think he had ever trained low kick), he didn't know what to do with me. Soon he gave up and said, "I hate to spar with you Kung Fu guys. You guys fighting stance are just too low".
> 
> When you drop down into low horse stance, you don't have much space to protect. When your opponent kicks at you, it's easy to grab his kicking leg, move in, and take him down. IMO, that's a good strategy and it's called "earth strategy" (earth against wood, low horse stance against kick).


I thought I was the only one who gets a kick out of doing that to people.   The low stance throws a lot of people off and everything that you stated is true, so please stop telling those types of secrets lol.  I always enjoy how they freeze as if they are trying to solve a puzzle, because I know at that point I could unleash a lot of other things while they are sitting there being stunned lol.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 30, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> View attachment 20314
> 
> So this was the pic that popped up with the description on Google. I feel stupid (hopefully you all don't think I'm lazy for complaining!) but in our club we don't call it horse stance nor do we stretch with it. Maybe this picture is an extreme version of it?



I'd consider that an extreme example, yes.
Anything we teach as a "stance" would be something you can move in and out of quickly, during sparring or fighting. That's not true of something that deep. It IS could exercise to stay in that position, though. We do an exercise where students drop about that low, then come up and throw a kick. 

We teach the Horse Stance like this. Ignore the arms; this is taken from my 2nd book and shows one of the techniques in Keumgang.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is how wide the "horse stance" used in the "hip throw".


Similar leg movements for us - the transitional stance would possibly be wide (depending upon distance to their midpoint, of course). We just use a narrower stance for the throw.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One time I sparred with a Karate guy, I dropped into a low horse stance. Since my opponent was used to high kick (I don't think he had ever trained low kick), he didn't know what to do with me. Soon he gave up and said, "I hate to spar with you Kung Fu guys. You guys fighting stance are just too low".
> 
> When you drop down into low horse stance, you don't have much space to protect. When your opponent kicks at you, it's easy to grab his kicking leg, move in, and take him down. IMO, that's a good strategy and it's called "earth strategy" (earth against wood, low horse stance against kick).


That would have some advantages. It would also mean I could finally try to kick you in the head.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, this horse stance is too wide.
> 
> When you put your feet together, your base is small. You have poor balance. When your move your feet apart, you base is increased, your balance is also increased. When you have reached to one point and you further move your feet apart, even if your base is increased, you balance will decrease.
> 
> In other words, there is only one width that your horse stance can have the maximum balance, that will be about your "shoulder width".


Interesting. Our jigotai ("horse riding stance" is the translation, I think) is about this wide, but not nearly as deep in most circumstances.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Not sure, but I use the chair stance. No idea if that is real or not, but I do it as if sitting in dinner table chair. The traditional wooden ones. Anyway I commend on the balence there, but are you're knees not screaming?


That's the same as "chair pose" in yoga. I hate that thing as much as I hate deep horse stance - and for the same reason: my knees.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Huh, you ain't no whipper slapper for long, I can tell you  Anyway, mine is more down to my scoliosis and balance issues. I tell you what though, try the chair combined with dynamic stretches back and forth. Well actually I should that is what I like doing. It may or not be a bit dodgy as an idea.


Many of my ideas are a bit dodgy, so I might give that one a try just on principle.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.. only if you have your weight centered correctly so that you feel it in your thighs and not in your knees. Weight over your knees has the opposite effect and works a different set of tendons and ligaments which aren't as strong to begin with.
> 
> Second thought.  The correction on that may be it works the same tendons but at their weakest and not their strongest point and forces more pressure and tension on the ligaments.  This is probably a more accurate statement without me breaking out body charts.


Hmm... I might hold off on this until I can catch up with you in person. I'm probably better off waiting until someone who's well-acquainted with this for training makes sure I'm doing it properly. The last thing I need is to make my damned knees worse.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Interesting. Our jigotai ("horse riding stance" is the translation, I think) is about this wide, but not nearly as deep in most circumstances.


When a horse stance is that wide, if you use your leg to "spring" (or "scoop") one of your opponent's legs from inside out (to make his base even larger), it will take you almost no effort to take him down. That stance will have very little resistance against "inside out spring/scoop".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd consider that an extreme example, yes.
> Anything we teach as a "stance" would be something you can move in and out of quickly, during sparring or fighting. That's not true of something that deep. It IS could exercise to stay in that position, though. We do an exercise where students drop about that low, then come up and throw a kick.
> 
> We teach the Horse Stance like this. Ignore the arms; this is taken from my 2nd book and shows one of the techniques in Keumgang.
> View attachment 20315


That's pretty close to our jigotai, as well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When a horse stance is that wide, if you use your leg to "spring" one of his legs from inside out (to make his base even larger), it will take you almost no effort. That stance will have very little resistance against "inside out spring".


Our shoulder throw is part hip throw, so the hip is what moves their structure (fairly common in NGA, at least in my interpretation).


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 30, 2016)

Isshyin Ryu's 'horse stance' is called 'Shiko Dachi' as seen above.  It's higher and not as wide as the horse stance shown by the OP.

The reason we are not as deep in the stance is because we believe it is important to be able to quickly transition in and out of it and kick from within it as well.  Hard to do if the tops of your legs are parallel with the floor.

However, each style has their own horse stance and their own reasoning for it; I don't claim what we do it best; it's just what we do.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Isshyin Ryu's 'horse stance' is called 'Shiko Dachi' as seen above.  It's higher and not as wide as the horse stance shown by the OP.
> 
> The reason we are not as deep in the stance is because we believe it is important to be able to quickly transition in and out of it and kick from within it as well.  Hard to do if the tops of your legs are parallel with the floor.
> 
> However, each style has their own horse stance and their own reasoning for it; I don't claim what we do it best; it's just what we do.


I'm going to hang onto this image as a reference. I see most of our stances in that list.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Our shoulder throw is part hip throw, so the hip is what moves their structure (fairly common in NGA, at least in my interpretation).


Our hip throw can be done in 2 different ways. The

1. Ancient way -  use hip to bounce your opponent's feet off the ground.
2. Modern way - start from a low horse stance, straight your legs into a high horse stance, and lift your opponent off the ground. A new name is called "waist lift".


----------



## Saheim (Dec 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Muay Thai horse stance training?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's pretty interesting.  Yea, I don't remember EVER being shown a Horse Stance in MT.  I wasn't there for very long, maybe it was something that would've come up later.  I don't know.  I know that with every TMA I've been in, the Horse Stance is learned right away.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 31, 2016)

Try doing the invisible chair against the wall if you think Horse stance is bad.


----------



## KangTsai (Dec 31, 2016)

Here's me doing a horse stance for two minutes before bed. It just burns your quads alot but nothing really exhausting. Heavy squats (I haven't tried over 80kg yet) make me hyperventilate in seconds. I'm about 71kg as of now - looking to cut more fat.


----------



## KangTsai (Dec 31, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Try doing the invisible chair against the wall if you think Horse stance is bad.


That's harder because it isn't actually a static hold, but rather a constant push toward the wall. First-degree murders my quads in two minutes.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That's the same as "chair pose" in yoga. I hate that thing as much as I hate deep horse stance - and for the same reason: my knees.



Yeah. I was doing some Yoga like Cobra for years without even realising it. One of my goals for 2017 is to try and link in to the spiritual element. Not donning a black robe and nicking a horse to spread some message, just simply out of curiosity. Yes but of course though, got to watch my right knee especially. It is starting to feel a little old lol.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Here's me doing a horse stance for two minutes before bed. It just burns your quads alot but nothing really exhausting. Heavy squats (I haven't tried over 80kg yet) make me hyperventilate in seconds. I'm about 71kg as of now - looking to cut more fat.



Yeah. You can do that when you are 14. Brushing your teeth, just rubbing it in lol


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 31, 2016)

in ITF I did do horse stances quite frequently for exercise - and I think there is a horse stance in the pattern Hwa Rang at the start, also the 'low/long L stance' in one of the patterns before it is almost low horse stance in angle for the 'back' leg.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

KabutoKouji said:


> in ITF I did do horse stances quite frequently for exercise - and I think there is a horse stance in the pattern Hwa Rang at the start, also the 'low/long L stance' in one of the patterns before it is almost low horse stance in angle for the 'back' leg.



Have you an image or a link for that. Sounds interesting.


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Have you an image or a link for that. Sounds interesting.



I'll find some when I get home for you  - in Hwa Rang as far as I remember the pattern starts, step out from 'ready' stance into horse stance then two punches in horse stance, then the other side.

The low L stance part I was talking about is I think different depending on school, some people seem to do it lower than others - I can't remember the pattern name right now, but it's the one that starts with L Stance twin forearm knifehand block, cat stance back arm knifehand strike (possibly to neck), followed by the 'low L stance' part with a side on leading punch.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Our hip throw can be done in 2 different ways. The
> 
> 1. Ancient way -  use hip to bounce your opponent's feet off the ground.
> 2. Modern way - start from a low horse stance, straight your legs into a high horse stance, and lift your opponent off the ground. A new name is called "waist lift".


I'd need to see what you mean by the difference between the two. It sounds like we're doing a bit of both, so probably less of each, though our focus is closer to what you're calling the "modern way". We just don't go as low, and we use a hip rotation to augment it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah. I was doing some Yoga like Cobra for years without even realising it. One of my goals for 2017 is to try and link in to the spiritual element. Not donning a black robe and nicking a horse to spread some message, just simply out of curiosity. Yes but of course though, got to watch my right knee especially. It is starting to feel a little old lol.


I practice mostly the physical side. I've considered looking into the spiritual side, but it has just never drawn me. For the physical (and mental), I practice Vinyasa flow. It has helped my knees significantly, and you work with your breath throughout, which works well with my martial arts.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I practice mostly the physical side. I've considered looking into the spiritual side, but it has just never drawn me. For the physical (and mental), I practice Vinyasa flow. It has helped my knees significantly, and you work with your breath throughout, which works well with my martial arts.



Cool. Where I am Yoga classes seem to everywhere. Vinyasa I look out for. A friend of mine swears by hot yoga, but I don't deal with heat very well. Do you meditate as well?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Cool. Where I am Yoga classes seem to everywhere. Vinyasa I look out for. A friend of mine swears by hot yoga, but I don't deal with heat very well. Do you meditate as well?


I don't, though I used to. I have difficulty quieting my mind to meditate, which is why I need it. My wife meditates a bit every morning.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> It just burns your quads alot but nothing really exhausting


 That means you are doing it correctly and not putting the stress on your knees.  I'm not sure if you do this when you normally practice.  When you do your horse stance pay attention to the movement of your muscles.  You want to make sure that your weight is balanced 50- 50 on the left and right side.  Be aware of the smallest shifts that your muscles make and it will help to increase your ability to sense those small changes.  You can do this if you want your horse stance to be more productive (if you aren't already doing this.)

By the way nice horse stance for brushing your teeth.  I'll see if I can match your 2 minute stance.  I think the most that I do is one minute.   I'll try to up your stance with a little forearm exercise.


Saheim said:


> That's pretty interesting.  Yea, I don't remember EVER being shown a Horse Stance in MT.  I wasn't there for very long, maybe it was something that would've come up later.  I don't know.  I know that with every TMA I've been in, the Horse Stance is learned right away.


This is the only video that I could find with anything like a horse stance being shown.  I did find anotherThailand martial art that trained the stance while holding weapons but it wasn't Muay Thai.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 31, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I did find anotherThailand martial art that trained the stance while holding weapons but it wasn't Muay Thai.


Krabi Krabong?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Krabi Krabong?


yes that's the one


----------



## KabutoKouji (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Have you an image or a link for that. Sounds interesting.








actually I don't need to go to earlier patterns, the sequence straight after the horse stances than ends in the L stance punch, when we did that it was a much lower L stance almost like si li bu in Longfist.


----------



## Zoltan97 (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I don't, though I used to. I have difficulty quieting my mind to meditate, which is why I need it. My wife meditates a bit every morning.



Same trouble here. Way too much going on. What kind of meditation does your wife use? I only know of the stereotypical ooooom cross-legged thing, if that's even legitimate.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2016)

my 1st try for 2 minute horse stance.  Failed.  Hopefully I'll get to the 2 minute mark tomorrow after class.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

KabutoKouji said:


> actually I don't need to go to earlier patterns, the sequence straight after the horse stances than ends in the L stance punch, when we did that it was a much lower L stance almost like si li bu in Longfist.



Thanks for that, and the info


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> my 1st try for 2 minute horse stance.  Failed.  Hopefully I'll get to the 2 minute mark tomorrow after class.



The chair one is easier.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> The chair one is easier.


nope. I'm going hardcore on this one.  I'm 44 so I have to show that I still got it. Which is why I'm trying to accomplish it after working out instead of before working out when I have fresh legs lol.  I probably would have gotten it if I didn't do the forearm exercises while doing the stance.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> nope. I'm going hardcore on this one.  I'm 44 so I have to show that I still got it. Which is why I'm trying to accomplish it after working out instead of before working out when I have fresh legs lol.  I probably would have gotten it if I didn't do the forearm exercises while doing the stance.



Arm excises, missed that lol. I'm 46 next year, so get it. Just maybe stagger it a little. Anyway good luck


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> Same trouble here. Way too much going on. What kind of meditation does your wife use? I only know of the stereotypical ooooom cross-legged thing, if that's even legitimate.


She doesn't follow any formal style. She simply spends time either sitting or laying down, being mindful of her thoughts while she quiets them some.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> She doesn't follow any formal style. She simply spends time either sitting or laying down, being mindful of her thoughts while she quiets them some.



You know what, this could be bloke thing. I can rarely get to a fully relaxed state. I know it can done by blokes, but maybe a minority sadly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> You know what, this could be bloke thing. I can rarely get to a fully relaxed state. I know it can done by blokes, but maybe a minority sadly.


I did meditate at one time. I have a hard time quieting myself and being mindful when I'm stressed, which is exactly when I need it. This year has been stressful, so my attempts to get back to meditation weren't good. My closest moments have been when I had no students for class, so had the opportunity to train alone, away from home and the interruptions of 6 pets.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I did meditate at one time. I have a hard time quieting myself and being mindful when I'm stressed, which is exactly when I need it. This year has been stressful, so my attempts to get back to meditation weren't good. My closest moments have been when I had no students for class, so had the opportunity to train alone, away from home and the interruptions of 6 pets.



Bet you have chihuahua's lol. Yeah though stress is unwanted at any time, reason why I changed jobs. But that is invidual of course, but the methods of release pretty much the same. Hope it gets better for you


----------



## Balrog (Dec 31, 2016)

IMNSHO, the images that appear when you google horse stance are not functional.  They are training exercises to strengthen the quads and the lower back.  A good middle stance (it's what we call it) should look like you are actually riding a horse.  The feet are about 1 1/2 shoulder widths apart, the knees are bent slightly and pushed out over the feet, kinda like this.


----------



## JP3 (Dec 31, 2016)

In my TKD/HKD time, we spent a lot of time in line drills, practicing hand striking while in deep horse stances, which I never understood as it's tactically NOT a good idea to fight a guy with your feet wide apart, very low and trying to just trade blows.... But I wasn't thinking about it from the conditioning angle. After a couple years of 3 to 5 classes a week in which you hung out in horse stance for something like 10 minutes a class, your leg strength gets really good, and the up/down as you move tends (it did me, anyway) the explosive/fast-twitch release muscles.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Bet you have chihuahua's lol. Yeah though stress is unwanted at any time, reason why I changed jobs. But that is invidual of course, but the methods of release pretty much the same. Hope it gets better for you


3 big dogs (lab/hound, chow/newfie, lab/pitbull), 2 cats (12 lbs., 22 lbs.), and a miniature dachshund. The pit mix is the youngest, and the most disturbing (and disturbed).


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> 3 big dogs (lab/hound, chow/newfie, lab/pitbull), 2 cats (12 lbs., 22 lbs.), and a miniature dachshund. The pit mix is the youngest, and the most disturbing (and disturbed).



Lab/Pitbull? A 22 pound cat. That seems a little heavy, depending on the cat.


----------



## Zoltan97 (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> You know what, this could be bloke thing. I can rarely get to a fully relaxed state. I know it can done by blokes, but maybe a minority sadly.



Then I have the mind of a man  The days I feel relaxed are the days hell freezes over (so think snow in Florida!)


----------



## Zoltan97 (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> 3 big dogs (lab/hound, chow/newfie, lab/pitbull), 2 cats (12 lbs., 22 lbs.), and a miniature dachshund. The pit mix is the youngest, and the most disturbing (and disturbed).



Those sound awesome and adorable and way better than my jack russell/rat terrier mix.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Lab/Pitbull?


Yeah. A 75 lb. lovable idiot.



> A 22 pound cat. That seems a little heavy, depending on the cat.


When he was 24 lbs (2 years ago), we asked the vet if he needed to lose weight. Vet said, "No, he's supposed to be that big. Your cat has dinosaur bones."

Everyone, meet Sir Isaac...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> Then I have the mind of a man  The days I feel relaxed are the days hell freezes over (so think snow in Florida!)


I've seen snow in Florida. It's hilarious!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> Those sound awesome and adorable and way better than my jack russell/rat terrier mix.


Terriers are good dogs. Each one is like 3 good dogs. 3 good dogs on crack.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

Zoltan97 said:


> Then I have the mind of a man  The days I feel relaxed are the days hell freezes over (so think snow in Florida!)



Oh, its not that bad


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> You know what, this could be bloke thing. I can rarely get to a fully relaxed state. I know it can done by blokes, but maybe a minority sadly.


I tried meditating once and went to clear my mind then thought to myself hey has it worked is my mind clear? Wait no I'm thinking right now crap try again.

That went on for about 3 minutes before I quit lol


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Terriers are good dogs. Each one is like 3 good dogs. 3 good dogs on crack.



Get three Yorkies, less manic, but do have a bite.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Dec 31, 2016)

My horse stance sucks lol I keep getting told off for bending my knees inward I don't know Id I have funny knees or something as I genuinely try and push them out. I am slightly duck footed so that could be a reason.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> I tried meditating once and went to clear my mind then thought to myself hey has it worked is my mind clear? Wait no I'm thinking right now crap try again.
> 
> That went on for about 3 minutes before I quit lol


The idea that your mind will be completely empty is one I've heard countered by people who are experienced in traditional meditation. The focus, at least early on, is simply on being aware of your thoughts and bringing them back to the meditation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> My horse stance sucks lol I keep getting told off for bending my knees inward I don't know Id I have funny knees or something as I genuinely try and push them out. I am slightly duck footed so that could be a reason.


I have a similar problem. I have to compromise between angling my feet too far out and having my knees too far in.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> I tried meditating once and went to clear my mind then thought to myself hey has it worked is my mind clear? Wait no I'm thinking right now crap try again.
> 
> That went on for about 3 minutes before I quit lol



Yeah, Yoga and the fighting mindset seem ad odds, but somehow a little relevant.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> traditional meditation.


Before I didn't know why people want to meditate. One day my doctor told me that meditation can low my "blood pressure". I have tried this myself so many times. My BP may start as 130. I can use meditation to make it drop to 110, even 95. May be someday someone will publish a paper on this.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

As I said, the chair.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> My horse stance sucks lol I keep getting told off for bending my knees inward I don't know Id I have funny knees or something as I genuinely try and push them out. I am slightly duck footed so that could be a reason.



It's just a question of balance. Find the sweet spot.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> It's just a question of balance. Find the sweet spot.



The Yoga will help get the hips flexible enought to horse stance well.

And flexable hips is in turn necessary to lift things correctly. Which is why even after reading the correct lifting techniques pamphlet people still lift with their back.

And on that point. The correct lifting structure is a very basic martial arts structure.


----------



## KabutoKouji (Jan 1, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Thanks for that, and the info



no problem at all  - and Happy New Year


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The Yoga will help get the hips flexible enought to horse stance well.
> 
> And flexable hips is in turn necessary to lift things correctly. Which is why even after reading the correct lifting techniques pamphlet people still lift with their back.
> 
> And on that point. The correct lifting structure is a very basic martial arts structure.



Yes. Correct lifting is important, especially when having a bad back.


----------



## Paul_D (Jan 1, 2017)

Zoltan97 said:


> I Googled it and I think I have nightmares! How in the world is someone supposed to stand that way


Stance is a misleading word, you're not supposed to stand like and fight, it just a position you are in momentarily.

Imagine if you took a photo of someone serving in tennis, that position they are in in the photo is not the position you get into to serve a tennis ball, it's just a position they happened to be in fleetingly during the act of serving.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 1, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Stance is a misleading word, you're not supposed to stand like and fight, it just a position you are in momentarily.
> 
> Imagine if you took a photo of someone serving in tennis, that position they are in in the photo is not the position you get into to serve a tennis ball, it's just a position they happened to be in fleetingly during the act of serving.


Agreed. Most stances are rarely held in application. In training, we spend much more time in them.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 1, 2017)

Not kung fu training but I was interested  "stance training in general" since it's basically stance training, just not martial art stance training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 1, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not kung fu training but I was interested  "stance training in general" since it's basically stance training, just not martial art stance training.


Body mechanics are body mechanics. Stances matter in every physical endeavor for the same reason they matter in MA.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Body mechanics are body mechanics. Stances matter in every physical endeavor for the same reason they matter in MA.


I like that one of the coaches says that his guys train stances every day.  I'll probably end up using the same video to stress the importance to some of my students who get lazy about their stances.    My lecture about how bad stances will damage the knees doesn't seem work.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 1, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I like that one of the coaches says that his guys train stances every day.  I'll probably end up using the same video to stress the importance to some of my students who get lazy about their stances.    My lecture about how bad stances will damage the knees doesn't seem work.


I used to think I was lazy about training stances. Then I noticed that every time I'm standing in line, I start practicing them. When I'm on the phone (I have a hard time sitting and talking), I often practice stance transitions. When I'm waiting for students to arrive for class, I often take a few moments to check the balance and mobility in my stances.

Turns out I'm not lazy in my stance training. I'm just not willing to pay attention to how often I do it.


----------



## punisher73 (Jan 3, 2017)

Zoltan97 said:


> View attachment 20314
> 
> So this was the pic that popped up with the description on Google. I feel stupid (hopefully you all don't think I'm lazy for complaining!) but in our club we don't call it horse stance nor do we stretch with it. Maybe this picture is an extreme version of it?



Reminds me of the movie "Forbidden Kingdom" with Jet Li and Jackie Chan.  They argue about the training and Jet Li tells him that the horse stance like that is only good for going to the bathroom.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2017)

- My teacher's teacher could finish his dinner while sitting in a horse stance.
- My teacher could finish Beijing opera while sitting in a horse stance.
- I can finish a beer while sitting in a horse stance.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - My teacher's teacher could finish his dinner while sitting in a horse stance.
> - My teacher could finish Beijing opera while sitting in a horse stance.
> - I can finish a beer while sitting in a horse stance.


I like the third option better lol.


----------



## WaterGal (Jan 3, 2017)

Zoltan97 said:


> View attachment 20314
> 
> So this was the pic that popped up with the description on Google. I feel stupid (hopefully you all don't think I'm lazy for complaining!) but in our club we don't call it horse stance nor do we stretch with it. Maybe this picture is an extreme version of it?



That looks more like a squat than a horse stance.  Which is _great_ for working your glutes, BTW.  I take a weights class at the gym and  one of the things that we do is to squat like that with a barbell on our shoulders, and then "pulse" it (basically, go maybe 1/4 back up to standing and back, 8-10 times).


----------

