# Some ideas for defending against dogs



## Isaiah90 (May 20, 2016)

I came upon the subject of defending against dog attacks and wondered what the best tactics for defending against an aggressive dog. 

* Feeding it - Throwing a treat will most likely divert it's attention away from you which will give you enough time to move past it. 

* Standing still - Standing motionless in a non-threatening position will let the dog know your harmless. 

* Climbing to high ground - If the dog doesn't listen, quickly climb onto a tree, a fence, or on a car roof. Dogs are horrible climbers and will not be able to reach you. 

If you find yourself attacked by a dog, i find these tips to be important. 

* Keep the dog at a distance - The dog is strongest from the center so you must attack from the side. Kicks to the side of a medium or large sized dog will keep it at bay and stomp kicks might work well with small dogs. It's important to avoid getting bitten. 

Attacks:

* Grab the neck and wrestle the dog - No matter how big the dog is, it will never be able to outwrestle you. Grabbing the neck while moving out of the line of attack then putting the dog into a headlock effectively keeps the dog from landing a bite. From there, you will be able to wrestle it to the ground and use your knees to plant your body weight in it's side along with controlling the neck. 

* Target the legs, throat, eyes, nose, shoulders, neck, and other vitals - Never attack the head unless your trying to stun the dog or keep it at a distance with an object. Dogs are weakest at other areas of their bodies. When you wrestle a dog to the ground, gouge it's eyes out, crush it's windpipe, rip it's tongue out, break it's neck, rip it's legs apart, break it's teeth out, and if possible - break it's spine. This will immobilize the dog and give you enough time to escape. 

Defense: 

* Dogs may try to use your body weight as support for a throat bite. To counter this, you can deliver a knee strike to the chest or grab them by the neck and slam them to the ground. 

* Use your bad arm for bait - Your going to have to sacrifice an arm to achieve a better chance of attack. Wrestle it to the ground once it's latched onto your arm and force your entire weight in it's mouth. This will cause the dog to choke to death if held long enough. 

* Redirect the dog's momentum if it jumps at you - This is where Martial Arts such as Judo or simply stepping aside and/or landing a kick to it's side if your quick enough will counter that attack. Either that or simply sacrificing your non-dominant arm before slamming it to the ground will work better.


----------



## hoshin1600 (May 20, 2016)

No offense but these all sound like bad ideas.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2016)

In one of my teacher's government mission, he was attacked by more than 20 dogs. He hated dog all his life since then. 

- One day he was in a park, a dog jumped on him. 
- He used one hand to grab on that dog's front leg, 
- spun his body,
- smashed that dog on a tree, and
- killed that dog.

The whole body motion is just like in the following clips.


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 20, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> No offense but these all sound like bad ideas.



why?


----------



## Buka (May 21, 2016)

Depends on the dog and it's training, depends on the person and his training, and depends on the situation.

Climbing atop a car might be okay, might not...






An umbrella works pretty good against your average dog, but they are hardly carried any more.


----------



## Tez3 (May 21, 2016)

Dealing with dog attacks isn't easy. This happened in the UK on Wednesday.  Blyth dog attack: Updates and reaction after a dog attacked and bit children in a play park


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2016)

Old saying said, "wolf has bronze head, steel body, and straw legs". Dog should be similar to wolf. Attacking it's legs sound like a good idea.


----------



## jks9199 (May 21, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> I came upon the subject of defending against dog attacks and wondered what the best tactics for defending against an aggressive dog.
> 
> * Feeding it - Throwing a treat will most likely divert it's attention away from you which will give you enough time to move past it.
> 
> ...


A lot of bad ideas here...

You're not going to distract or deter an aggressive dog with a treat.  That only works reliably in movies...
Standing still might work -- or it might not.  You have to send the right signals -- and decide wether those are really the signals you want to send...

Rather than running through all of this point by point... Yeah, most of it is pretty off.  Contact a dog handler, maybe see if your local PD's K9 unit will let you wear a bite suit...  A truly attacking dog is more than a little on the formidable side of things.  One thing... a dog relies on it's rear legs to drive into an attack.  If you can get them off the ground... you get a lot of control.  But that's a damn sight easier to say than do while being attacked...


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 21, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> Rather than running through all of this point by point... Yeah, most of it is pretty off.  Contact a dog handler, maybe see if your local PD's K9 unit will let you wear a bite suit...  A truly attacking dog is more than a little on the formidable side of things.  One thing... a dog relies on it's rear legs to drive into an attack.  If you can get them off the ground... you get a lot of control.  But that's a damn sight easier to say than do while being attacked...



I disagree, anyone will lose in a tug of war with a dog but that's not the goal of self defense against a dog. Your goal should be to receive the force and/or redirect it not fight it. If the dog comes in, bites your arm, and pulls back - you go in the direction it wants you before you counter-attack. The common mistake people make is pulling away from a dog bite which will lead to a torn limb.


----------



## Tez3 (May 21, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> I disagree, anyone will lose in a tug of war with a dog but that's not the goal of self defense against a dog. Your goal should be to receive the force and/or redirect it not fight it. If the dog comes in, bites your arm, and pulls back - you go in the direction it wants you before you counter-attack. *The common mistake* *people make is pulling away from a dog bite which will lead to a torn limb*.



Nope. In the job I had before I retired we had dogs, a lot of us got to play the 'baddie' with them. Suit and pad up, once a dog has your arm frankly it doesn't matter what you do you will not dislodge those jaws, move whichever way you want. Being trained these dogs release on command, non trained dogs don't, in fact some breeds of dogs have jaws that lock on and only they can 'unlock' them. Your arm will be savaged even if you 'go' with them and will make it ver hard to fight them off, basically that's why dogs are trained to take the arm.
Which Dog Breed Has the Strongest Jaw


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Nope. In the job I had before I retired we had dogs, a lot of us got to play the 'baddie' with them. Suit and pad up, once a dog has your arm frankly it doesn't matter what you do you will not dislodge those jaws, move whichever way you want. Being trained these dogs release on command, non trained dogs don't, in fact some breeds of dogs have jaws that lock on and only they can 'unlock' them. Your arm will be savaged even if you 'go' with them and will make it ver hard to fight them off, basically that's why dogs are trained to take the arm.
> Which Dog Breed Has the Strongest Jaw



The dog's "locking jaws" has been proven to be a myth. Regardless, you will want them to bite down as you can immobilize rather than force the dog to let go of it's grip. Ripping out the dog's tongue, gouging it's eyes and nose, cutting off it's air supply, or severing major arteries so that it bleeds to death will eventually make any dog eventually let go no matter how strong their will to hold on is. 

Pet Myths: Do certain dog breeds have “locking jaws?”


----------



## Tez3 (May 21, 2016)

Oh please, do you actually understand what I meant by  looking. Obviously not because you don't understand what happens when a dog attacks. Dogs jaws are designed to grip and in those breeds that haven't had it bred out of them have jaws that grip with teeth that align perfectly when sunk into flesh so that they are considered to be locked, combined with the power of the jaw muscles your arm is not going to be pulled out until the dog was wants to let go usually to go for your throat. That is what is meant by 'locking', same way we have arm and leg locks, they aren't myths either.
 I suppose the dog is going to just stand there while you rip it's tongue out etc? Good luck with that one.


----------



## jks9199 (May 21, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> The dog's "locking jaws" has been proven to be a myth. Regardless, you will want them to bite down as you can immobilize rather than force the dog to let go of it's grip. Ripping out the dog's tongue, gouging it's eyes and nose, cutting off it's air supply, or severing major arteries so that it bleeds to death will eventually make any dog eventually let go no matter how strong their will to hold on is.
> 
> Pet Myths: Do certain dog breeds have “locking jaws?”


Do you have any idea how hard it is to cut a dog's air off?  They don't choke easy....  way too much muscle in their necks.

Since you're telling what's wrong when we disagree,  maybe some explanation of your qualifications and expertise would boost your credibility.   

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Tez3 (May 22, 2016)

The last thing you want is a dog biting down on your arm. During the training of police dogs, guard dogs and patrol arm true dogs  when a dog will not let go ie 'locks onto' an arm ( which is what is meant by 'locked jaws btw) it is very difficult to make them let go. The dog's idea is to drag on the arm to bring his 'prey' down then release and go for the throat. The dog doesn't stand still, it's alert to your movements. if you've ever played 'tug' with a dog you'll know they can let go of the toy but immediately bite on again without losing it but closer to your hand.  
Your ideas are going to get you very badly bitten if not killed.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 22, 2016)

I'd give it my arm to bite, under certain very specific circumstances...
1 - I really had no other choice anyway.
2 - The arm is wrapped in a heavy (not that word, it is key!) leather coat.
3 - I'm using my other hand to retrieve a weapon.
And even then I'm pretty sure I'd be really unhappy afterwards.


----------



## Tez3 (May 22, 2016)

Even through a sleeve specially made for dog baiting you can feel the power of the dog's jaws luckily without the teeth biting but it lets you know in no uncertain terms that the bite would be to the bone.
If you look on the internet there are thousands of horrendous photos of dog bites.


----------



## Transk53 (May 22, 2016)

Difficult one. Even a Staffy is bloody strong. Got bitten by a Labrador as a kid, and even being a quick bite (it disengaged as quick as the bite) it still went through my hand. But like the incident the other day, you can never tell when an animal is going to turn. I guess all animals like humans can have bad days, even cows and what not.


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 22, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The last thing you want is a dog biting down on your arm. During the training of police dogs, guard dogs and patrol arm true dogs  when a dog will not let go ie 'locks onto' an arm ( which is what is meant by 'locked jaws btw) it is very difficult to make them let go. The dog's idea is to drag on the arm to bring his 'prey' down then release and go for the throat. The dog doesn't stand still, it's alert to your movements. if you've ever played 'tug' with a dog you'll know they can let go of the toy but immediately bite on again without losing it but closer to your hand.
> Your ideas are going to get you very badly bitten if not killed.



ok so what do you suggest is the best solution to dealing with a dog attack then?


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 22, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> Do you have any idea how hard it is to cut a dog's air off?  They don't choke easy....  way too much muscle in their necks.
> 
> Since you're telling what's wrong when we disagree,  maybe some explanation of your qualifications and expertise would boost your credibility.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



If you have credibility and expertise then please enlighten me. I'm willing to admit i'm wrong if i can find a better solution.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (May 22, 2016)

*Isaiah90, Tez3, jks9199, myself* and more all have work related experience with police dogs.  So credibility is there.  I actually have several friends that are K9 handlers as well and have had long conversations on this. 
*
Dealing with a large size dog is problematic*.  They have teeth and a strong bite.  However, what makes dealing with a dog so dangerous is that we are just plain slow compared to them.  *In other words they are really fast!*  This is incredibly obvious when I play with my husky/sharpie mix.  When just goofing around if he does not want me to touch him I simply can't touch him.  If he wanted to strike my arm or groin, neck, etc. I think his chances are really, really good and for a human I am pretty fast.  Why I have going for me is size and the ability to trick him.  Still, if I take him or a similar dog on empty handed I am going to more than likely get bit really bad.  So, with that in mind have an equalizer.  Some kind of tool to even the odds like a stick, knife, gun.  Then you can improve your chances!


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 22, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Isaiah90, Tez3, jks9199, myself* and more all have work related experience with police dogs.  So credibility is there.  I actually have several friends that are K9 handlers as well and have had long conversations on this.
> *
> Dealing with a large size dog is problematic*.  They have teeth and a strong bite.  However, what makes dealing with a dog so dangerous is that we are just plain slow compared to them.  *In other words they are really fast!*  This is incredibly obvious when I play with my husky/sharpie mix.  When just goofing around if he does not want me to touch him I simply can't touch him.  If he wanted to strike my arm or groin, neck, etc. I think his chances are really, really good and for a human I am pretty fast.  Why I have going for me is size and the ability to trick him.  Still, if I take him or a similar dog on empty handed I am going to more than likely get bit really bad.  So, with that in mind have an equalizer.  Some kind of tool to even the odds like a stick, knife, gun.  Then you can improve your chances!



And what if you don't have a weapon at your side?


----------



## Buka (May 22, 2016)

I've worn bite sleeves many times, and a full bite suit twice. Kind of scary.

"The Yearling" was a 1946 film based on the Puiltzer Prize winning novel of Marjorie K Rawlings. Set in the backwoods of the 1870's.

When the film was made, it was long before the humane society oversaw the safety of animals in film. There's a scene where Gregory Peck's character, along with his boy and a couple dogs, go hunting a bear that's been getting at the livestock. So, the film makers got some dogs and went looking for a bear, which they found. One of the dogs was a Pit Bull name of Rip. They used the same name in the film. Old Rip got his tail handed to him by the bear. As the story goes, from old Pit Dog Men I used to know back in the day, Rip broke several ribs and needed a lot of stitches to put him back together. But he just didn't care.

Here's the scene from the film. I don't ever want to fight a dog. But, if I do, I sure don't want to fight a determined dog like ol' Rip.


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 22, 2016)

Buka said:


> I've worn bite sleeves many times, and a full bite suit twice. Kind of scary.
> 
> "The Yearling" was a 1946 film based on the Puiltzer Prize winning novel of Marjorie K Rawlings. Set in the backwoods of the 1870's.
> 
> ...



Believe me, i don't want to fight a dog either but i'm not just going to let myself get bitten or mauled around and hope that the dog stops attacking me.


----------



## Tez3 (May 22, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> Believe me, i don't want to fight a dog either but i'm not just going to let myself get bitten or mauled around and hope that the dog stops attacking me.



How likely are you to be bitten by a dog? Do you have a lot of strays where you live or neighbours with uncontrolled dogs? Do you have a job where you come in contact with dogs?
Like most 'dangers' you have to weigh up the probabilities and the likelihood of you being attacked by dogs.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (May 22, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> And what if you don't have a weapon at your side?



Then you are unprepared and not that concerned about your personal protection!


----------



## jks9199 (May 22, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Isaiah90, Tez3, jks9199, myself* and more all have work related experience with police dogs.  So credibility is there.  I actually have several friends that are K9 handlers as well and have had long conversations on this.


Not only do I have experience with working dogs...  In my department, patrol often has to handle animal complaints.  So I've got a fair bit of experience catching and dealing with aggressive and hostile dogs.  And other critters, too...


----------



## Tez3 (May 22, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> And other critters, too...



Rampaging hamsters are a real bugger to catch......


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 22, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> Not only do I have experience with working dogs...  In my department, patrol often has to handle animal complaints.  So I've got a fair bit of experience catching and dealing with aggressive and hostile dogs.  And other critters, too...



That's because you have the proper tools and organization to deal with containing animals. That doesn't explain how the average person can defend him or herself against an attacking dog.


----------



## jks9199 (May 22, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Rampaging hamsters are a real bugger to catch......


Was actually chased by a rabid woodchuck, once...

And we're about due for another bear. Though I think they're all looking for the guy building the giant boat.  Lots of snakes, raccoons, possums...  Lots of critters.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 22, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> And what if you don't have a weapon at your side?



I'm not really concerned about a dog attacking me while I'm getting out of the shower...


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 23, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Then you are unprepared and not that concerned about your personal protection!


You don't have to carry a weapon to be prepared and concerned about your personal protection.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 23, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> That doesn't explain how the average person can defend him or herself against an attacking dog.


Have a bigger, meaner dog handy.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (May 23, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> You don't have to carry a weapon to be prepared and concerned about your personal protection.



Yet, if you do not have tools available for some situations you will be woefully unprepared and that shows a lack of concern for your personal protection skills sets!


----------



## oftheherd1 (May 23, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> ok so what do you suggest is the best solution to dealing with a dog attack then?



Climb a tree avoiding the terrified cats already there?  Lay down, roll over and expose your belly and throat and hope?

I'm sorry, you have no idea how a dog can attack.  They are fast and have strong bites.  Headlock on a dog?  Pull its tongue out?  What do you expect the dog is going to be doing, give you instruction on who to improve your technique, start tapping out?  Most dogs have very strong necks as well as strong bites.  Their head/neck are structured differently from ours.  They can struggle with great strength and agility.  One lingering bite or a flurry of bites is not going to make you happy.  Kick them in the face?  Which leg do you want to lose the use of during your struggle?  You will go down, can you protect your groin or throat while down?  Attack dogs don't really know fear, only attack.    You cannot outrun a dog, you must freeze or fight.  Expect to get hurt either way.

I'm no expert, nor have a lot of training, but in Vietnam, Thor didn't care what you looked like or how big your were.  If he thought you were a threat to me, he would attack until you froze.  He wouldn't let go until I gave him the command.  Otherwise he was sweet, lovable, and craved affection.  Clipper would not approach anyone but a recognized handler.  He had some 4 or 5 personal enemy kills in the field.  Toby mauled his airforce handler so bad they discharged him from the Air Force.  Toby was given to an Army Trainee who handled him but had the scars to prove Toby's hair-trigger disposition.  Every dog has its own personality, but if they attack, they are very likely to hurt you unless you have a weapon, and maybe even then.


----------



## oftheherd1 (May 23, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> If you have credibility and expertise then please enlighten me. I'm willing to admit i'm wrong if i can find a better solution.



How many of those techniques have you tried on an attack trained dog, or just a mean dog?  Maybe we can learn from you.


----------



## drop bear (May 23, 2016)

Let's see if this works.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=502612546598191
			




Ok. Mate of mine trains them. I have worked with dog handlers. Seen them bite people.

They are not your normal dog they are mike Tyson with bigger teeth. So A lot of ideas that work with a normal dog just won't fly with one that is specifically trained to fight you.

Otherwise try to get hold of the collar and avoid the mouth parts.


----------



## Isaiah90 (May 23, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Climb a tree avoiding the terrified cats already there?  Lay down, roll over and expose your belly and throat and hope?
> 
> I'm sorry, you have no idea how a dog can attack.  They are fast and have strong bites.  Headlock on a dog?  Pull its tongue out?  What do you expect the dog is going to be doing, give you instruction on who to improve your technique, start tapping out?  Most dogs have very strong necks as well as strong bites.  Their head/neck are structured differently from ours.  They can struggle with great strength and agility.  One lingering bite or a flurry of bites is not going to make you happy.  Kick them in the face?  Which leg do you want to lose the use of during your struggle?  You will go down, can you protect your groin or throat while down?  Attack dogs don't really know fear, only attack.    You cannot outrun a dog, you must freeze or fight.  Expect to get hurt either way.
> 
> I'm no expert, nor have a lot of training, but in Vietnam, Thor didn't care what you looked like or how big your were.  If he thought you were a threat to me, he would attack until you froze.  He wouldn't let go until I gave him the command.  Otherwise he was sweet, lovable, and craved affection.  Clipper would not approach anyone but a recognized handler.  He had some 4 or 5 personal enemy kills in the field.  Toby mauled his airforce handler so bad they discharged him from the Air Force.  Toby was given to an Army Trainee who handled him but had the scars to prove Toby's hair-trigger disposition.  Every dog has its own personality, but if they attack, they are very likely to hurt you unless you have a weapon, and maybe even then.



Put pressure on your dog's windpipe with the bony part of your forearm with your body weight forcing the dog on the ground. Put your knee on the dog's side with your body weight pushing down and control the neck with your hand to see if the dog can get out of the hold. Film it so you can prove me wrong.


----------



## oftheherd1 (May 24, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> Put pressure on your dog's windpipe with the bony part of your forearm with your body weight forcing the dog on the ground. Put your knee on the dog's side with your body weight pushing down and control the neck with your hand to see if the dog can get out of the hold. Film it so you can prove me wrong.



You haven't answered my question yet:  Are you trying to deflect the conversation so you don't have to do so?



oftheherd1 said:


> How many of those techniques have you tried on an attack trained dog, or just a mean dog?  Maybe we can learn from you.



Perhaps you could make a video and show us.  Remember though, no padded suits or handlers to call off the dog.

Fact is several of the MT members do have some experience with dogs.  If you have any, you haven't mentioned it.  Have you?  You were the one who raised the question, and you have received answers from some people who do have experience.  You have not said if you have ever used that as a defense, nor even trained using any of the techniques you mentioned.  Can you enlighten us?

BTW, what is your art and your ranking.  That might help us understand why you believe the techniques you mention will work.


----------



## oftheherd1 (May 24, 2016)

FWIW, I have thought on this some in the past.  Knowing how dogs attack, the only thing I have ever been able to come up with is if the dog leaps at you, put a hand up for the dog to concentrate on.  As the dog focuses on that, step to the side as you move the hand out of the way (if you can) and strike at whatever presents itself; head, ribs, shoulder, hip, sternum, whatever.  Repeat as often as necessary and as it works.  You must be very fast and willing to continue under pain if the dog isn't fooled and grabs the arm you so graciously provided him. 

It is not a high probability thing.  But I haven't come up with anything better.  

I would not try to stick my hand in an attacking dogs mouth to try and grab his tongue and get my hand back before he clamps down on my hand.  The fastest human I ever personally saw was Henry Cho.  I am sure he couldn't have done that.  I know I can't.


----------



## drop bear (May 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Let's see if this works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By the way. See the tail?

That is not an angry dog. That is a happy one.


----------



## Buka (May 24, 2016)

I love dogs, I always have.  Probably more than most. I know dogs, have known them since I was a kid. Been a cop, have a good friend who trains police dogs and have spent some years with him while they were trained. We, my wife and I, raised pits and staffs, our breeds of choice, and we've spoiled every dog we've ever had so rotten that we should probably be chumps in a sitcom.
*
But make no mistake about, there's a reason Homo-Sapiens are at the top of the food chain....and not dogs.* I would rather have a big, strong violent dog surprise me than a big, strong violent man.

"DOWN, you furry mother f'ker, or meet the Jesus dog while I line my boots with your belly fur." Belly fur be soft.


----------



## Hyoho (May 24, 2016)

Taser


----------



## drop bear (May 24, 2016)

Buka said:


> I love dogs, I always have.  Probably more than most. I know dogs, have known them since I was a kid. Been a cop, have a good friend who trains police dogs and have spent some years with him while they were trained. We, my wife and I, raised pits and staffs, our breeds of choice, and we've spoiled every dog we've ever had so rotten that we should probably be chumps in a sitcom.
> *
> But make no mistake about, there's a reason Homo-Sapiens are at the top of the food chain....and not dogs.* I would rather have a big, strong violent dog surprise me than a big, strong violent man.
> 
> "DOWN, you furry mother f'ker, or meet the Jesus dog while I line my boots with your belly fur." Belly fur be soft.



I thought cats were the top of the food chain. After they managed to domesticate humans


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 17, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> A lot of bad ideas here...
> 
> You're not going to distract or deter an aggressive dog with a treat.  That only works reliably in movies...
> Standing still might work -- or it might not.  You have to send the right signals -- and decide wether those are really the signals you want to send...
> ...




When I was on a narcotics unit my partner was K-9 officer.  Beyond going deaf in my left ear until the pup got used to me I got to wear the bit suit for training and demos.  I loved one demo (sarcasm).  I weighed 160 at the time.  The pup was a Belgian Shepherd and dragged me from the pitchers mound in jerks with very little effort.  Miss that pup.  He was a beast and dedicated.  After one vehicle pursuit he made two apprehensions in a matter of minutes without missing a beat.  R.I.P partner of my Partner.


----------



## SenseiHitman (Jun 18, 2016)

I once kicked a pit pull that had attacked another dog in an attempt to save it's life.  I attacked from the side kicking to the belly,  the kick picked the dog up a couple inches but did not phase it and it did not cause it to let go of the other dog so I kicked it again, it still did not let go.  The dog was so committed to the bite it ignored me.  I avoided kicking the legs since I was a friend of the owner and the dog and I had a relationship.  When the owner of the dog came out of the house he gained control and we saved the other dog.  I learned that day if I ever had to defend myself against a dog it would be life or death, as if I was being attacked by an experienced knife fighter. In other words be prepared to get cut and cut again. I would look for Joint locks or kicks or strikes to the legs, attacks to the throat eyes groin solar plexus skull etc., throwing on the head  and any other dirty trick are all fair game against any dog.  If the dog has friends and they jump in I hope your life insurance is paid up your family may need it.


----------



## Hyoho (Jun 19, 2016)

My post of use a taser was partly in jest. But as dog owner.(7 German shepherds right now) I have an idea of what dogs do. My dogs are trained on command. Not in English as I want to control them not somebody else. My female swims out 50 meters through waves to bring back whole coconuts or runs 200 meters down a mountain to bring them back. I have her trained to attack people between the legs. Seems reasonable as most of the would be criminals here are male. If she came at you? You might have a slight chance of trying to grab her front legs and rip them apart as the heart. This does a lot of damage to a dog. But seriously my first suggestion is best.


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 19, 2016)

Tasers do work, the problem is if the gasser is not cycling,, the dog can come right back at yas,  the recovery from a taser cycle is very fast, even for a human, a matter of seconds.

The best thing I have found is oleoresin capsicum.  Get one that is a spray, not stream, aim for the snout.  It will get in the eyes, nose and lungs.  It wears off but after about 30-40 minutes.  Dogs are actually more sensitive to some of the effects due to their heightens sense of smell.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jun 19, 2016)

Just punch it in the dick. Ameridote works on all life forms.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Just punch it in the dick. Ameridote works on all life forms.



Not female ones though.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 19, 2016)

It's difficult to discuss "defending against dogs" if you realize how lovely a dog can be. She is only 3 lb.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2016)

On the other hand...


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2016)




----------



## Hyoho (Jun 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Tasers do work, the problem is if the gasser is not cycling,, the dog can come right back at yas,  the recovery from a taser cycle is very fast, even for a human, a matter of seconds.
> 
> The best thing I have found is oleoresin capsicum.  Get one that is a spray, not stream, aim for the snout.  It will get in the eyes, nose and lungs.  It wears off but after about 30-40 minutes.  Dogs are actually more sensitive to some of the effects due to their heightens sense of smell.


Pepper spray is fine unless you are in a confined or windy area. Easy just to make your own. Chili grows in my garden as a weed.


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 19, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Pepper spray is fine unless you are in a confined or windy area. Easy just to make your own. Chili grows in my garden as a weed.




Well windy yes.  Confined?  OC is like any weapons learn it and train with it.  Hold your breath on deployment, so long as it isn't a fogger, and you are good.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jun 21, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Tasers do work, the problem is if the gasser is not cycling,, the dog can come right back at yas,  the recovery from a taser cycle is very fast, even for a human, a matter of seconds.
> 
> The best thing I have found is oleoresin capsicum.  Get one that is a spray, not stream, aim for the snout.  It will get in the eyes, nose and lungs.  It wears off but after about 30-40 minutes.  Dogs are actually more sensitive to some of the effects due to their heightens sense of smell.



I don't know.  Many years ago I had a large Great Dane.  I used to leave him in my efficiency apartment sometimes.  I once left my mace where he could get to it and he did.  When I got back and realized he had chewed it I quickly checked the walls for claw marks.  I figured he would have had to have made at least 10 or 15 laps around the walls at the first puncture.  When I picked up the dispenser, he just looked at me sort of disappointed like, as if to say I needed to get him a better play toy than that.


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 21, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know.  Many years ago I had a large Great Dane.  I used to leave him in my efficiency apartment sometimes.  I once left my mace where he could get to it and he did.  When I got back and realized he had chewed it I quickly checked the walls for claw marks.  I figured he would have had to have made at least 10 or 15 laps around the walls at the first puncture.  When I picked up the dispenser, he just looked at me sort of disappointed like, as if to say I needed to get him a better play toy than that.



OC spray is actually very different than mace is terms of effect and duration of said effect, so if it was actual chemical Mace I would not be surprised at your description


----------



## SenseiHitman (Jun 25, 2016)

I think the pepper spray is a great idea, but I am never armed so it would be a lifetime away for me.  If it happens to me I'll use throws, joint locks, strikes to the vital points and a prayer. 
Every dog I ever practiced joint locking on gave complete resistance to the hold, which as we all know, makes them work even better, I have played aggressively with dogs I have owned and known and they are a sucker for joint locks, dogs don't seem to understand much about the gentle side of combat.  When playing with the dogs I have 4 modes.  I call them Dograte = hand strikes to vitals, Dog Kwon Do = kicks to vitals, Dog Fu = deception and tricks, and Dog Jitsu = various grappling tech. In a perfect world, the fight would end with a Dog Kwon Do tech.  In many instances the dogs counter with bite attacks to the attacking limb or they will attack center mass. If not they make some distance.  The problem with this training is every time I go to my buddy's house down the street his dogs think its playtime and they get ruff( pun intended).


----------



## Tortoise (Jun 25, 2016)

If the dog has a collar, grab and twist to choke them.  Dogs have been killed by other dogs playing with them who accidently got their teeth stuck in collars.


----------



## geezer (Jul 1, 2016)

Buka said:


> *But make no mistake about, there's a reason Homo-Sapiens are at the top of the food chain....and not dogs.* I would rather have a big, strong violent dog surprise me than a big, strong violent man.



We are _not at the top of the food chain _by virtue of individual strength or fighting skill.  We are more dangerous than other animals for two reasons:

First of all, we are social and travel in _packs or bands_. You know, strength in numbers and all that.

Secondly, we've used our intelligence to develop _weapons_.

...So we can kill any other animal including other, stronger humans if we have the necessary weapons and numbers on our side. One thing to remember about dogs is _they've got the pack thing down too_. If you are alone and you don't have a weapon, the odds aren't good.

As for reverting to our primate roots and escaping by climbing... usually _there simply isn't enough time._ I speak from experience. Once in my grad-school days I climbed over a tall fence topped with barb-wire to get into a junk yard late at night. It was a property leased by my friend Dave who was converting it into an alternative art-space/club called "Crash" where I was going to be setting up a show.

Anyway, I'd misplaced my key to the padlock, and being young, agile, and really stupid, I topped the fence and  jumped down inside. I got about ten yards across the yard heading towards the "office" building when a black shadow appeared from around the corner and charged me. I didn't even have time to take a step. I can still clearly remember seeing a large doberman, a black blur with a lot of white teeth coming at me ...fast.

I just had time to realize that there was no possible way I could make it back to the fence. The dog jumped, slammed into me, knocked me back about three steps, ...somehow I kept on my feet and about then I realized that ..._hey it's a *friendly* dog! _He looked really evil though. Pointed ears, full length un-bobbed tail like some kind of demon.

Later Dave told me that he was a rescue dog named "Crack" and that he just had him there as a deterrent. "He barks like the devil, scares everyone away. But he wouldn't harm a soul". ....Lucky me.


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> We are _not at the top of the food chain _by virtue of individual strength or fighting skill.  We are more dangerous than other animals for two reasons:
> 
> First of all, we are social and travel in _packs or bands_. You know, strength in numbers and all that.
> 
> ...



Pretty much this^^^^

As for other suggestions the last thing you want to do against big strong dogs is go hands on, grabbing collars, legs etc.  I have seen "bad guys" try this stuff time and time again vs a K-9.  I even had a scenario, back in may Narcotics days, when my partner and I had to go into the creek mid apprehension because the bad guy was trying to drown his K-9.  The pups are faster, good luck grabbing a leg and once they sink their teeth in, if they are truly aggressive they will not let go because of simple pain compliance unless ordered or forcibly pulled off.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 1, 2016)

One thing is for sure, telling dogs to 'get down' doesn't work, ask Ramsey Bolton ... cue evil laugh.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2016)

Isaiah90 said:


> I came upon the subject of defending against dog attacks and wondered what the best tactics for defending against an aggressive dog.
> 
> * Feeding it - Throwing a treat will most likely divert it's attention away from you which will give you enough time to move past it.



The dog is unlikely to notice if he is truly aggressive, unless you hit him with it, which might seem aggressive.


> * Standing still - Standing motionless in a non-threatening position will let the dog know your harmless.



Only if he's making a display and NOT being territorial. Standing still in what he thinks is his territory will not calm him if he's trying to defend his territory.



> * Climbing to high ground - If the dog doesn't listen, quickly climb onto a tree, a fence, or on a car roof. Dogs are horrible climbers and will not be able to reach you.



Not true of all dogs, by any stretch of the imagination. Big dogs can easily jump onto a car hood.


> * Dogs may try to use your body weight as support for a throat bite. To counter this, you can deliver a knee strike to the chest or grab them by the neck and slam them to the ground.



Defending their neck is what dogs do best, as it is their natural attack point. Watch dogs wrestle (their form of MA), and you'll see they will give up a leg much quicker than the throat, even in play.



> * Use your bad arm for bait - Your going to have to sacrifice an arm to achieve a better chance of attack. Wrestle it to the ground once it's latched onto your arm and force your entire weight in it's mouth. This will cause the dog to choke to death if held long enough.



While I doubt this can kill by choking, it is at least a good bit of advice for keeping a big dog from breaking the bones. A dog will have difficulty bearing down if you put pressure toward the back of the mouth. This not only shoves the jaw back, it also shoves their weight backwards and puts their neck at an odd angle to their torso. All of these reduce the dog's ability to bite harder or to start shaking its head (as if you were prey).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> if they are truly aggressive they will not let go because of simple pain compliance



This. I've seen a basset hound grab another dog in a display of dominance (lots of pain to the dog, but no tears in the skin). A guy hit the basset with a shovel twice with no effect.


----------



## Buka (Jul 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> We are _not at the top of the food chain _by virtue of individual strength or fighting skill.  We are more dangerous than other animals for two reasons:
> 
> First of all, we are social and travel in _packs or bands_. You know, strength in numbers and all that.
> 
> ...



True, dat.

As for being "_young, agile, and really stupid"_...we had a pretty big club, didn't we?


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 3, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Pepper spray is fine unless you are in a confined or windy area. Easy just to make your own. Chili grows in my garden as a weed.



Well I would wonder how you may find yourself in a confined space that would effect you too (in 18 years I have only taken a "hit" from spraying someone when it was indoors in a confined space) as for wind, you would be surprised at how well the propellant works, unless we are talking "possible thunderstorms" type wind conditions."

The only problem I see with making your own is the propellant issue.  Getting the proper mix of OC to propellant, with consistency, isn't something most people are capable of.  

Since these are rather rare occurrences, if you are concerned about range, weather conditions etc. Might I suggest this  Kimber America | Pepperblaster | The most powerful pepper defense system.

Yes it is only a two shot unit, but typically a dog will posture before attacking (unless ordered two or basically feral) so this unit provides you more than adequate range to deal with the issue.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Well I would wonder how you may find yourself in a confined space that would effect you too (in 18 years I have only taken a "hit" from spraying someone when it was indoors in a confined space) as for wind, you would be surprised at how well the propellant works, unless we are talking "possible thunderstorms" type wind conditions."
> he only problem I see with making your own is the propellant issue.  Getting the proper mix of OC to propellant, with consistency, isn't something most people are capable of.



Are you kidding? I've seen ER staff wheezing and coughing just from being in the same room as someone who was sprayed in the field. Sensitivities vary widely. They were not as miserable as the person who was sprayed directly, but miserable enough. And if they're asthmatic (just as one example) they can be dangerously sick. I get watery eyes just being in the room too long, with some formulations. I've given albuterol nebs to staff asthmatic staff.

Which is not to say pepper spray isn't a viable defense against dogs. I'm just saying that, as with any weapon, it's can be a danger to the wielder.


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 3, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Are you kidding? I've seen ER staff wheezing and coughing just from being in the same room as someone who was sprayed in the field. Sensitivities vary widely. They were not as miserable as the person who was sprayed directly, but miserable enough. And if they're asthmatic (just as one example) they can be dangerously sick. I get watery eyes just being in the room too long, with some formulations. I've given albuterol nebs to staff asthmatic staff.
> 
> Which is not to say pepper spray isn't a viable defense against dogs. I'm just saying that, as with any weapon, it's can be a danger to the wielder.



Oh I am not just talking about weezing etc.  I get that.  I am talking about being genuinely "combat ineffective".  Sorry I wasn't clear.  I know the incidenal effects of such exposure, I have just become accustomed to it.  In terms of "combat ineffective" we actually saved a video of the following at work for "dark" humor value and I was one of the butts of that joke...

Bad guy somehow managed to rip glass cover out of light fixture in the ceiling of his holding cell.  Proceeds to cut himself.  Me, another officer and and Sgt enter block and open cell.  Suspect doesn't drop glass on command.  Sgt sprays.  Bad guy thrusts face into toilet, the three of us go hand to knees gasping for air and stagger in different directions.  I have been sprayed, on purpose in training and accidentally as above (more than once ) so I suppose it's a perspective thing in terms of effect.

And I get the last (preexisting conditions).  I once worked with an Officer who was actually allergic.  We were made aware, he had n inhaler and epi-pen and he, obviously, didn't carry.  I was think more so "average reaction" and still being able to effectively, even if very uncomfortably, withdraw after deployment because imo that is what you should be doing here... once the dog is discombobulated, get the heck out of Dodge as safely as is possible.  However this I think is simply, as you say, a truth of any weapon in that you need to be aware if you are personally capable of wielding such a tool safely before you consider deploying it.

But again this may be a case of "perspective" is everything.  With the exception of major respiratory interference (or complications of asthma) I know you can fight through most "incidental" contact if necessary.  If I flashback to my first direct exposure in the Academy however...yeah it sucks.

But if that is a concern, and it was clearly one for the person I responded to, there are new delivery systems that mitigate the risk.


----------



## konann (Aug 11, 2016)

protection dogs - baton-belt
baton  belt — combat canes, self-defense   stiks, Folding  weapon, baton  belt


----------



## Winchester (Aug 11, 2016)

The sjambok does wonders for mean dogs.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 11, 2016)

Winchester said:


> The sjambok does wonders for mean dogs.


Better get that thing in fast. I train my dogs to attack between the legs and twist, not grab somebodies arms.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 12, 2016)

konann said:


> protection dogs - baton-belt
> baton  belt — combat canes, self-defense   stiks, Folding  weapon, baton  belt


As illegal for a civilian as any folding baton in most places.


----------



## stonewall1350 (Aug 12, 2016)

So I grew up with a veterinarian as a parent. Spent thousands of hours around dogs. Now I spent a lot of time at a dog park with mine. The MOST IMPORTANT self defense thing to remember about a dog:

Don't be afraid.

When you are afraid you act different. You do that and it is a warning sign to the dog. They are hard wired to respond to that. Even the nice ones. And it may not be good. 

Dogs are great climbers...just took mine to the mountains and they scaled a few rock faces and rock hopped and all.

If you didn't stop an attack and you can't put something between you and the dog and you don't have a weapon? Don't go down! Stay on your feet. 


Sent from my grapefruit using smoke signals.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> As illegal for a civilian as any folding baton in most places.



Loocks like a cane to me! Are canes illegal?  No.  You can unfold it it advance before coming into "dog" terrain, and then fold id back and put it in a bag or backpack.  
Great idea i think.

As for defence against dogs... I believe it is helpful to view a dog as... mean shorty human.  It's being shorty is dog's huge disadvantage. Use it!


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

konann said:


> protection dogs - baton-belt
> baton  belt — combat canes, self-defense   stiks, Folding  weapon, baton  belt




I totally like the idea of almost 50" light alloy collapsible baton cane!!!  Whe can I get one of those?


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> It's being shorty is dog's huge disadvantage. Use it!



Great Danes, mastiffs, Rhodesian Ridgebacks etc all weigh more than many people and can easily be taller than humans when attacking and go on their rear legs, even Rottweilers and German Shepherds can.


----------



## Tames D (Aug 14, 2016)

I would rather face a knife wielding maniac, than a dog baring it's teeth.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Agains those I would use a hand gun... Then it does not matter how much this thing weight )))


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Agains those I would use a hand gun... Then it does not matter how much this thing weight )))



this can be a solution too


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

You would have to walk around with a weapon in your hand all the time then. The military security here has attack dogs ( they are attack dogs not police dogs) and trust me they will attack quicker than you can draw your weapon or get your magic whip out. If you are walking down the street how fast do you think you can get any sort of weapon out before you are taken down by a dog or dogs. You have to be a really good shot to be able to shoot a fast moving target then you'd better make sure it's a killing shot because dogs have been shot before and still keep coming. I think you have an unrealistic idea of using whips etc as a defence in an everyday situation.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You would have to walk around with a weapon in your hand all the time then. The military security here has attack dogs ( they are attack dogs not police dogs) and trust me they will attack quicker than you can draw your weapon or get your magic whip out. If you are walking down the street how fast do you think you can get any sort of weapon out before you are taken down by a dog or dogs. You have to be a really good shot to be able to shoot a fast moving target then you'd better make sure it's a killing shot because dogs have been shot before and still keep coming. I think you have an unrealistic idea of using whips etc as a defence in an everyday situation.



You know, we have a lot of stray dogs in Russia, they are not particularly well controlled.  Most of the times that is not a problem, but certain times, especially in mating season they can get agressive and dangerous for children for instance.  Now some areas are more dog populated (industial areas where people even feed them). I remember having to walk through one of those to get to work years ago.  I felt a lot of hostility from a gang of dogs...  I tool a good old sling shot and after hitting couple of times the gand the dogs would avoid me instead of me avoiding them, which (avoiding) actually a good idea )))


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> You know, we have a lot of stray dogs in Russia, they are not particularly well controlled.  Most of the times that is not a problem, but certain times, especially in mating season they can get agressive and dangerous for children for instance.  Now some areas are more dog populated (industial areas where people even feed them). I remember having to walk through one of those to get to work years ago.  I felt a lot of hostility from a gang of dogs...  I tool a good old sling shot and after hitting couple of times the gand the dogs would avoid me instead of me avoiding them, which (avoiding) actually a good idea )))




The thing there though is that you know this and are prepared but we don't often have dogs wandering around here, we have dog wardens to round them up so any dog attack comes out of the blue and people are obviously unprepared for it.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

There are different degrees of being prepared for any attack (including dog attack) I believe.  Ranging from being totally unaware and taken off guard to being generally aware of the possibility and having something (cane, heavy boots, knife, pepper spray, hand gun) to meet that possible attack.  In latter case one's chances are infinately better )))


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> There are different degrees of being prepared for any attack (including dog attack) I believe.  Ranging from being totally unaware and taken off guard to being generally aware of the possibility and having something (cane, heavy boots, knife, pepper spray, hand gun) to meet that possible attack.  In latter case one's chances are infinately better )))



It's not practical for everyday wear though in case of a dog attack which is highly likely *not* to happen. Dog attacks are rare though when they do happen a big fuss is made about 'dangerous' dogs leading people to think they are more common than they are. Just about every dog attack here has been that of a 'family pet' attacking usually a child, often there are reasons for this, unsuitable breed, lack of training etc. Most dog bites are on owners or those whose dogs have been attacked by another dog, ignorant and careless owners are nearly always the cause of this. It's rare to see a dog out on it's own here, all dogs have to be microchipped by law and each local council has a dog warden responsible for picking up strays so stray dogs are not a problem.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Then, what is the problem?  One cannot prepare for everything (especially things one would not generally) expect to happen.  We can speak only about some general principles like do not show fear, do not panic, go for the vulnerable spots like nose, eyes, go for your life using whatever you can grab to kill the bastard less it kills you. That's as good an advice as it gets )))

My experience with dogs:  whenever I had something with me (knife, kubaton, whip) dogs would feel it and would avoid me even without me showing them my weapon. They would know I was armed and stayed away from me. 

For instance if you know there are dogs in  a certain area and they are likely to be agressive you can take with you some weapon and just by having it (and being prepared to use it) you will make yourself a less likely target for dogs. Or should you have to defend yourself your chances will be much better!

Like this baton - cane I just received - i think it's just perfect for a task like this:


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Loocks like a cane to me! Are canes illegal?  No.  You can unfold it it advance before coming into "dog" terrain, and then fold id back and put it in a bag or backpack.
> Great idea i think.
> 
> As for defence against dogs... I believe it is helpful to view a dog as... mean shorty human.  It's being shorty is dog's huge disadvantage. Use it!


It looks like a cane about the same way an ASP baton looks like something for propping up the hatchback on your car. It's not a cane, and unless you walk around using it as one, it will likely not be seen as one. As with any weapon, it's not what you could claim it is, but what the law sees it as that matters when we're considering what's legal.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Agains those I would use a hand gun... Then it does not matter how much this thing weight )))


Assuming you see them coming far away enough to draw. Guns are a great universal solution only if it's in your hand and pointed at the threat while the threat is too far away to attack.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> You know, we have a lot of stray dogs in Russia, they are not particularly well controlled.  Most of the times that is not a problem, but certain times, especially in mating season they can get agressive and dangerous for children for instance.  Now some areas are more dog populated (industial areas where people even feed them). I remember having to walk through one of those to get to work years ago.  I felt a lot of hostility from a gang of dogs...  I tool a good old sling shot and after hitting couple of times the gand the dogs would avoid me instead of me avoiding them, which (avoiding) actually a good idea )))


That's not the same thing as dealing with an attack. An attacking dog is fast, violent, and relentless. You were dealing with dogs who were mostly posturing to defend their territory - standard pack behavior.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Assuming you see them coming far away enough to draw. Guns are a great universal solution only if it's in your hand and pointed at the threat while the threat is too far away to attack.



Why would a dog attack someone all of a sudden? What kind of dogs are we talking about anyway?


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Assuming you see them coming far away enough to draw. Guns are a great universal solution only if it's in your hand and pointed at the threat while the threat is too far away to attack.



Carrying handguns around is not an option in Russia.  Knives are allowed.  So my choice of universal tool against dog attack would be a good old bowie knife of a combat knife with handguard.  Yes the dog can still bite you and cause injuries... but meanwhile you can almost cut it into chunks, rip it open, stab it, and make it bleed to death.  You being bigger and just makes your chances better.  Provided you know how to use the knife of course and have the balls to take on a dog. With a bit of luck you'll get the upper hand!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Why would a dog attack someone all of a sudden? What kind of dogs are we talking about anyway?


I have, in fact, seen dogs charge from a short distance away (short enough that it only took a second or two to cover it) to attack people and dogs without stopping to posture. These were not trained "attack dogs" - merely vicious dogs. That's the kind of dogs I'd expect to defend against. The trained attack dogs Tez refers to are unlikely to attack me unless I make some very different new life choices.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Why would a dog attack someone all of a sudden? What kind of dogs are we talking about anyway?



Woman arrested after bull terrier bites 11 children in park

Lincoln quarry dog attack: Owner arrested - BBC News

Blackburn dog attack: Recap updates after baby girl mauled to death by family pet



As I said before these aren't stray dogs, these are attacking for various reasons but the one thing in common is the owners.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I have, in fact, seen dogs charge from a short distance away (short enough that it only took a second or two to cover it) to attack people and dogs without stopping to posture. These were not trained "attack dogs" - merely vicious dogs. That's the kind of dogs I'd expect to defend against. The trained attack dogs Tez refers to are unlikely to attack me unless I make some very different new life choices.




Would you agree to this statement: normally dogs would not attack anyone but just the people or other dogs whom they see as easy target?


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Would you agree to this statement: normally dogs would not attack anyone but just the people or other dogs whom they see as easy target?



Are there dogs that would attaclk you even if you are armed with handgun in one hand and machete in the other?  Yes, there are crazy dogs just as there are crazy humans )))  You cannot understand their logic.  But normally dogs would not attack 1) for no reason, 2) someone they perceive as "dangerous" - meaning if you have something you can confidently use to defend yourself (doent matter what it is) dog woul sense it and would not attack you unless it has a very compelling reason for doing so


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Would you agree to this statement: normally dogs would not attack anyone but just the people or other dogs whom they see as easy target?



Dogs can and will attack anyone if they have a reason to, it's not necessarily just those they see as an easy target. They don't think as we do. Military and police dogs will attack without the command if they think their handler is under threat or being attacked, dogs do defending really well. Dogs do not think someone with a weapon is dangerous, they don't see you with a gun etc in your hand as a threat because they simply don't think to themselves 'oh he's got a gun I'll not attack', they see you as prey if they want to. You are projecting onto them human thoughts and emotions. Don't forget some breeds are bred for fighting and aggression, they have little fear of anyone or thing.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Dogs can and will attack anyone if they have a reason to, it's not necessarily just those they see as an easy target. They don't think as we do. Military and police dogs will attack without the command if they think their handler is under threat or being attacked, dogs do defending really well. Dogs do not think someone with a weapon is dangerous, they don't see you with a gun etc in your hand as a threat because they simply don't think to themselves 'oh he's got a gun I'll not attack', they see you as prey if they want to. You are projecting onto them human thoughts and emotions. Don't forget some breeds are bred for fighting and aggression, they have little fear of anyone or thing.



Maybe I just have different experience... however like I told you... I noticed that same dogs can behave deferently towards diferent people or even same people depending if they are armed or not.  Maybe being armed gives you an air of confidence dogs can sense.  Now, the beeds you are referring to are clearly crazy, their mind and senses are just twisted by selection that they are numb to fea and pain and those IMHO should be banned from being in public altogether. If I had to be in the area where I knew those kind of dogs were on the lose I would have a shotgun ready to fire ))) Or at least twist-lock my cane-belt in ready to battle position and get my folder ready for the other hand.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Would you agree to this statement: normally dogs would not attack anyone but just the people or other dogs whom they see as easy target?


Not necessarily. They will attack what they see as either prey (easy target) or a threat they either think they can beat or they don't think they can escape. Dog don't always know what weapons are unless they've had them used on them, but they can assess risks, including the perceived power of their opponent (which is influenced by prey behavior and countered by confidence in some cases).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Are there dogs that would attaclk you even if you are armed with handgun in one hand and machete in the other?  Yes, there are crazy dogs just as there are crazy humans )))  You cannot understand their logic.  But normally dogs would not attack 1) for no reason, 2) someone they perceive as "dangerous" - meaning if you have something you can confidently use to defend yourself (doent matter what it is) dog woul sense it and would not attack you unless it has a very compelling reason for doing so


Most dogs won't know what a handgun is, at all. Few will recognize a machete as more than a stick.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Maybe I just have different experience... however like I told you... I noticed that same dogs can behave deferently towards diferent people or even same people depending if they are armed or not.  Maybe being armed gives you an air of confidence dogs can sense.  Now, the beeds you are referring to are clearly crazy, their mind and senses are just twisted by selection that they are numb to fea and pain and those IMHO should be banned from being in public altogether. If I had to be in the area where I knew those kind of dogs were on the lose I would have a shotgun ready to fire ))) Or at least twist-lock my cane-belt in ready to battle position and get my folder ready for the other hand.


Likely the difference is your behavior. When you are not armed, you may feel more intimidated by them (as you rightly should). Dogs can smell hormones, including those we secrete when we experience fear. Many (especially those living "wild") also are keenly attuned to prey behavior, which is more likely when you are not armed in a way that you perceive as sufficient. If I gave you a wallet-sized device would prevent any and all dogs from being able to attack you (and you believed me), it would be as useful a deterrent as that gun, since it would change your behavior.

This is the same reason most martial artists never have to use their training. Confident behavior is not prey behavior.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Maybe I just have different experience... however like I told you... I noticed that same dogs can behave deferently towards diferent people or even same people depending if they are armed or not.  Maybe being armed gives you an air of confidence dogs can sense.  Now, the beeds you are referring to are clearly crazy, their mind and senses are just twisted by selection that they are numb to fea and pain and those IMHO should be banned from being in public altogether. If I had to be in the area where I knew those kind of dogs were on the lose I would have a shotgun ready to fire ))) Or at least twist-lock my cane-belt in ready to battle position and get my folder ready for the other hand.



The dogs aren't crazy they have been bred for aggression/guarding in the same way sheepdogs have been bred to work, their minds aren't twisted nor are their senses, quite the opposite, they are goal orientated and intelligent,  confidence in others, man or dog won't worry them. Pit bulls and a few others (Controlling your dog in public - GOV.UK) are banned in the UK and will be put down if found.
Most of the problem with dogs is the owners, who cannot or will not train their dogs properly and often encourage aggression Too often it's a macho thing to have an aggressive dog.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The dogs aren't crazy they have been bred for aggression/guarding in the same way sheepdogs have been bred to work, their minds aren't twisted nor are their senses, quite the opposite, they are goal orientated and intelligent,  confidence in others, man or dog won't worry them. Pit bulls and a few others (Controlling your dog in public - GOV.UK) are banned in the UK and will be put down if found.
> Most of the problem with dogs is the owners, who cannot or will not train their dogs properly and often encourage aggression Too often it's a macho thing to have an aggressive dog.


The prejudice against pitbulls is not sensible, in my experience. They are gentle, playful dogs who like everybody. Unless they are mistreated or trained to attack, then they have the capability to do great damage, but that's not a problem with the breed - it's back to your comment about owners.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2016)

Sadly these breeds have been banned because they are being used as fighting dogs in organised dog fights and also for badger baiting. The two South American breeds however have proved resistant to breeding out aggression and short tempers, they are also very big heavy dogs which makes them fairly unsafe as pets for normal families as opposed to dog handlers.


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 14, 2016)

Tried to adopt a very large pitbull once. Took him out of a cage and put him on a leash. He saw another dog, ran and pulled me to the ground and dragged me 3 or 4 meters. Good job I didn't have the chain wrapped around my wrist. 

I have two GSDs. They dont do anything unless told. They only bark when somebody lurks around the perimeter fence. That's partly why I have them. Wonderful pets. But as mentioned they do sense fear. 

Like the dog whisperer teach humans how to deal with them and there are no problems.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Tried to adopt a very large pitbull once. Took him out of a cage and put him on a leash. He saw another dog, ran and pulled me to the ground and dragged me 3 or 4 meters. Good job I didn't have the chain wrapped around my wrist.
> 
> I have two GSDs. They dont do anything unless told. They only bark when somebody lurks around the perimeter fence. That's partly why I have them. Wonderful pets. But as mentioned they do sense fear.
> 
> ...


That issue with the large pitbull is not a problem with the dog by breed. Any large dog that is high energy will do that if not trained. Some dogs are more easily trainable than others (by breed, and by individual).

EDIT: In my experience, there's a lack of braininess among pitbulls. I'm sure there are some smart ones somewhere, but two of the three dumbest dogs I've ever known were a pitbull and a pitbull mix. Both were among the most loving and lovable dogs I've ever met, too.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 14, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The dogs aren't crazy they have been bred for aggression/guarding in the same way sheepdogs have been bred to work, their minds aren't twisted nor are their senses, quite the opposite, they are goal orientated and intelligent,  confidence in others, man or dog won't worry them. Pit bulls and a few others (Controlling your dog in public - GOV.UK) are banned in the UK and will be put down if found.
> Most of the problem with dogs is the owners, who cannot or will not train their dogs properly and often encourage aggression Too often it's a macho thing to have an aggressive dog.



The problem is the issue is not with the breeds themselves actually, it's rather with the owners.  German Shepherds and Rottweilers have close to the same number of attacks.   The problems, imo, are:
1. Any High Drive dog is going to require proper training and handling.
2. certain breeds become "faddish" in certain communities and people buy them without considering #1.
3. certain breeds are simply more powerful in the bite than others.  So when #1 and 2 happen they are more likely to cause hospitalizations.  Example Cockerspaniels bite more than almost any other breed BUT they don't cause as many hospitalizations.
4. media exposure or appearance thus causing reputation.  As an example Tosa's have a reputation as Japanese fighting dogs but Rottweilers and German Shepherds have actually worse statistics with it comes to numbers of attacks. 

An actual perfect example of this is the Dogo Argentino.  It looks like an American Pitbull, is as strong (if not stronger) in a bite than an Pitbull BUT it was actually bred on purpose to be non-aggressive and gentle with people.  They actually make good service dogs.

To ram #4 home, after doing so research I even discovered that the Dogo was added to the list before there was even a single one in the UK and there was only one Tosa puppy in the country at the time.  Basically it was "they look like Pitbulls so ban them."  That kind of legislation always irks me.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 15, 2016)

I am not a "dog person" and clearly don't see the point of having a dog, especially big one in a city appartment or in the streets with many people and children.  I believe it's unnecessary threat to the public and should be discouraged by legal means.  Some people just cannot control even themselves and much less the dogs in their possession so they should not be allowed to own one.  Then there are certains breeds that just have no reason to be in the city around people they can hurt.  If all that was followed defense against dogs would not be even something worth much discussion.  Stray dogs when they form big gangs are another big threat, and in such situation you want to have something big and heavy enough to keep them at a distance.  Sjambok or cane seem perfect for this task.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 15, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> I am not a "dog person" and clearly don't see the point of having a dog, especially big one in a city appartment or in the streets with many people and children.  I believe it's unnecessary threat to the public and should be discouraged by legal means.  Some people just cannot control even themselves and much less the dogs in their possession so they should not be allowed to own one.  Then there are certains breeds that just have no reason to be in the city around people they can hurt.  If all that was followed defense against dogs would not be even something worth much discussion.  Stray dogs when they form big gangs are another big threat, and in such situation you want to have something big and heavy enough to keep them at a distance.  Sjambok or cane seem perfect for this task.



But aren't he issues you raise people issues?  Can I sue Ford because an asshat bought one, was irresponsible and killed my wife in a crash?  No.  Ultimately, legally a Dog is property same as the car (this is actually a fact) so, imo, the responsibility for "bad things" should be on the owner, not the animal who had the misfortune to be purchased by said owner...

Note I have no dogs, my wife and I are the "crazy cat neighbors."


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 15, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> I am not a "dog person" and clearly don't see the point of having a dog, especially big one in a city appartment or in the streets with many people and children.  I believe it's unnecessary threat to the public and should be discouraged by legal means.  Some people just cannot control even themselves and much less the dogs in their possession so they should not be allowed to own one.  Then there are certains breeds that just have no reason to be in the city around people they can hurt.  If all that was followed defense against dogs would not be even something worth much discussion.  Stray dogs when they form big gangs are another big threat, and in such situation you want to have something big and heavy enough to keep them at a distance.  Sjambok or cane seem perfect for this task.



 Well I live on the edge of a mountain jungle. I have already lost two dobermans with cobra bites. Mine are a deterrent as well as being pets. People here will climb in if they think you are an easy touch to steal things from outside. 

I wish they were more aware here of how smart some dogs are. Kids will occasionally stand outside make silly dog noises to try and upset them and run off. What they dont realize is the dogs can smell them and remember. I can walk the dog up the road to go down into the jungle and if someone walks past that has done this in the past ? They know growl aggressively. also I have a high fence but if they wanted to they could jump it easily if upset and provoked. 

They live outside in 1000 sq meters. It's 27c here all year round.

I throw a coconuts down the slopes and they bring it back in seconds. Wonderful strong animals and loving pets if you can give them the time they require, Trained to respond in Japanese.

I still love the signs that say "Never mind the dog, Look out for the owner" My partner shoots the flames out on candle on the fence at 50 meters. shot a cobra clean through the head. If anyone does ever try to get in? We are more than prepared.

 They come around and shoot any strays and the Gates foundation has injected for two years now for free.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 15, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> But aren't he issues you raise people issues?  Can I sue Ford because an asshat bought one, was irresponsible and killed my wife in a crash?  No.  Ultimately, legally a Dog is property same as the car (this is actually a fact) so, imo, the responsibility for "bad things" should be on the owner, not the animal who had the misfortune to be purchased by said owner...
> 
> Note I have no dogs, my wife and I are the "crazy cat neighbors."




Sure, they are people issues!  My point is: not everybody should be allowed to have big dangerous dogs just like not everybody is allowed to own and drive a car.  And some type of dogs clearly have no place in the city or arounf people, and some dogs should be treated same as owning a weapon and licensed accordingly.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2016)

While the breeds are banned now those people who had them before the ban can keep them but with restrictions. I understand what you are saying about blanket bans but it's hard to legislate on each and every dog in the country so unfair as it is a ban was ordered. There simply isn't the money to test each dog for aggressive tendencies and bad temperament. The Dogos were added to the Act a few years later when there were some in the country, they weren't originally in the 1991 Act, which only applies to England and Wales by the way Scotland and Northern Ireland have a different system and laws.

We don't have gangs of dogs roaming around here nor do we have Rabies in the country, as I said before the dogs that do attack are the responsibility of bad owners. Living in a rural area the problem we have is dogs who chases and kill sheep, many dog owners put their pet into the car and drive up here to have a nice walk in the Dales, usually with the dog off the lead. The dogs see the sheep and chase them often savaging them or causing the ewes to abort. owners simply refuse to believe their beloved pooch will do such a thing but they do, that lovely cuddly dog at home turns into a killer.  The owners are then devastated when the farmer has shot their dog dead which legally they are allowed to do. there is also heartbreak for the farmers as they have to cope with the aftermath of savaged animals.https://www.dalesman.co.uk/dog-owne...d-while-walking-in-yorkshire-countryside/6487


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> While the breeds are banned now those people who had them before the ban can keep them but with restrictions. I understand what you are saying about blanket bans but it's hard to legislate on each and every dog in the country so unfair as it is a ban was ordered. There simply isn't the money to test each dog for aggressive tendencies and bad temperament. The Dogos were added to the Act a few years later when there were some in the country, they weren't originally in the 1991 Act, which only applies to England and Wales by the way Scotland and Northern Ireland have a different system and laws.
> 
> We don't have gangs of dogs roaming around here nor do we have Rabies in the country, as I said before the dogs that do attack are the responsibility of bad owners. Living in a rural area the problem we have is dogs who chases and kill sheep, many dog owners put their pet into the car and drive up here to have a nice walk in the Dales, usually with the dog off the lead. The dogs see the sheep and chase them often savaging them or causing the ewes to abort. owners simply refuse to believe their beloved pooch will do such a thing but they do, that lovely cuddly dog at home turns into a killer.  The owners are then devastated when the farmer has shot their dog dead which legally they are allowed to do. there is also heartbreak for the farmers as they have to cope with the aftermath of savaged animals.https://www.dalesman.co.uk/dog-owne...d-while-walking-in-yorkshire-countryside/6487



My main issue was a ban without data.  I may have personal issues with global bans in general but really my issue with the ban you linked was that at least half of that list was clearly based on appearance and not actual data.

I respect laws, even when they ban things, but the Vulcan in me wants objective data for the individual things banned, it's simply how I am wired and dang does that result in "interesting" conversations with the wife 

Btw we have laws in the US that are similar to the one you noted on a number of topics, ...that wasnt a shot a UK law.  Laws like that irk me regardless.  Heck I even have to enforce some of them as it is my duty, but it is irksome nonetheless.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 15, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Sure, they are people issues!  My point is: not everybody should be allowed to have big dangerous dogs just like not everybody is allowed to own and drive a car.  And some type of dogs clearly have no place in the city or arounf people, and some dogs should be treated same as owning a weapon and licensed accordingly.



I would actually say there is no domesticated dog breed that has "no place among people".  As for in a city I would narrow down to what parts.  I lived in different sections in Philadelphia.  Some, imo are not suited to dogs that "need to run" (Port Richmond for one) but size is not the Judge of that in dogs actually.  However in the Chestnut Hill section, there were people who had enough space so their dog could run in wide circles to utter exhaustion.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> My main issue was a ban without data.  I may have personal issues with global bans in general but really my issue with the ban you linked was that at least half of that list was clearly based on appearance and not actual data.
> 
> I respect laws, even when they ban things, but the Vulcan in me wants objective data for the individual things banned, it's simply how I am wired and dang does that result in "interesting" conversations with the wife



I can understand that, there's several problems though and no one answer that isn't going to cost a fortune. Dog fighting and badger baiting is a problem, we have family pets being stolen for use in training and badger setts being dug up to get the badgers. The breeds with the reputation for being aggressive are being bought and bred by those who want a weapon or something macho on the end of a lead, obviously these dogs aren't trained properly. The police are stretched, we have two major terrorist warnings in place one from the IS types and one from the IRA, along with 'normal' crime. The police aren't equipped to go around checking all dogs to see if they are safe or not. those particular breeds were 'picked on' because they appeal to a certain type of owner mostly and could become a danger. It may be a poor law but frankly I don't think anyone can think of a better way at the moment. The RSPCA is supposed to investigate dog fighting but has also turned into a political lobby group which rakes in money so seems a bit off.
A terrifying encounter with the brutal world of dog-fighting


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> I am not a "dog person" and clearly don't see the point of having a dog, especially big one in a city appartment or in the streets with many people and children.  I believe it's unnecessary threat to the public and should be discouraged by legal means.  Some people just cannot control even themselves and much less the dogs in their possession so they should not be allowed to own one.  Then there are certains breeds that just have no reason to be in the city around people they can hurt.  If all that was followed defense against dogs would not be even something worth much discussion.  Stray dogs when they form big gangs are another big threat, and in such situation you want to have something big and heavy enough to keep them at a distance.  Sjambok or cane seem perfect for this task.


I've lived around and owned dogs my entire life, including several over the 75-lb. mark. I grew up in neighborhoods where dogs were allowed to roam freely around children. I've never been bitten, and have only witnessed people being bitten who stepped into a dog fight. Large dogs are not a threat to people if treated well.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've lived around and owned dogs my entire life, including several over the 75-lb. mark. I grew up in neighborhoods where dogs were allowed to roam freely around children. I've never been bitten, and have only witnessed people being bitten who stepped into a dog fight. Large dogs are not a threat to people if treated well.



Actually I dislike small dogs, they are yappy, trip you up and are far more likely to bite you.
We've also had retrievers as gun dogs, we also had a German Shepherd we took in at six months old because the owner couldn't 'manage her,' too boisterous he said, she wasn't she just needed exercise. We had 13 lovely years with her.



Russian Whips said:


> I am not a "dog person" and clearly don't see the point of having a dog, especially big one in a city appartment or in the streets with many people and children. I believe it's unnecessary threat to the public and should be discouraged by legal means



Dogs as such aren't a danger to the public or in private, we have guide dogs here for the blind, hearing dogs for the deaf, dogs who can warn when epileptic attacks are about to happen, dogs interact with autistic children they provide comfort, companionship, safety. Around our way farmers need them for working the sheep, police dogs are invaluable. Ex Forces personnel with PTSD find dogs a huge help as well. Dogs all in all provide far more than they detract.
As I've said before we don't have problems with packs of dogs here and I really think you are having a love affair with this whip/sjambok thing, they are just tools, not objects to be gloated over (or to have endless videos posted on, I've seen the same one from you on several threads now)


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 15, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've lived around and owned dogs my entire life, including several over the 75-lb. mark. I grew up in neighborhoods where dogs were allowed to roam freely around children. I've never been bitten, and have only witnessed people being bitten who stepped into a dog fight. Large dogs are not a threat to people if treated well.



Then what's the whole point of discussion?  Defense against a dog for a farmer looks pretty simple to me: walk around with a shotgun and if you see a strange dog approaching shoot it down before it attacks.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 15, 2016)

I heard that if you get bitten by a dog you want to push into the bite. If you try to pull away all that does is result in further damage from the bite as that's how a dog bite works, it bites onto its opponent and as the opponent pulls away it causes tearing, so the thing you want to do is push into the bite not pull away. I don't have any experience working with dogs and I claim no authority on whether or not this would be effective but Im checking with anybody who does have experience with dogs if this would work.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Actually I dislike small dogs, they are yappy, trip you up and are far more likely to bite you.
> We've also had retrievers as gun dogs, we also had a German Shepherd we took in at six months old because the owner couldn't 'manage her,' too boisterous he said, she wasn't she just needed exercise. We had 13 lovely years with her.
> 
> 
> ...




I belive that each breed of dogs have been breeded to serve specific purpose. You understand what I mean.  Life n the city has no room for those original purposes and therefore no room for most dogs breeds except for little types, with whom no "defense against the dogs" issues are relevant.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 15, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> I heard that if you get bitten by a dog you want to push into the bite. If you try to pull away all that does is result in further damage from the bite as that's how a dog bite works, it bites onto its opponent and as the opponent pulls away it causes tearing, so the thing you want to do is push into the bite not pull away. I don't have any experience working with dogs and I claim no authority on whether or not this would be effective but Im checking with anybody who does have experience with dogs if this would work.



Sounds very much like common sense idea to me.  Better still not let the bastard bite you!


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Then what's the whole point of discussion?  Defense against a dog for a farmer looks pretty simple to me: walk around with a shotgun and if you see a strange dog approaching shoot it down before it attacks.



No, you cannot go around destroying animals just because they might do some damage.





Russian Whips said:


> I belive that each breed of dogs have been breeded to serve specific purpose. You understand what I mean.  Life n the city has no room for those original purposes and therefore no room for most dogs breeds except for little types, with whom no "defense against the dogs" issues are relevant.



I don't know what your cities are like but here we have huge open areas in our cities, not just parks but vast common land, we have rivers, canal and lakes which all have areas where you can walk around them. people have gardens too that are big enough for dogs. I don't think you know a lot about dogs. If you think small dogs can't be dangerous then you are mistaken. Three-week-old baby dies after being bitten by dog in Sunderland - BBC News
Toddler's face savaged by pet dog


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> No, you cannot go around destroying animals just because they might do some damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We have such places.  Heck some cities have actually started putting fenced in "dog parks" to address the paranoid.  Tbh I should actually be one of the paranoid.  As a kid growing up our neighbors had a German Shepherd.  They trained it to be mean, were I mean to be a guard dog, themselves.  When the owner took the dog for a walk he had a ratan cane and wore a welding glove.  On my sister's 8th birthday we were roller skating down the sidewalk.  As I passed the dog it took hold of my calf.  Luckily only have was torn off so it was sewn back on.

Thing is that was the owners issue.  They thought a "guard dog" meant mean dog and decided they could "train" it themselves.  Every time I find "mean dogs" at work, size is not a factor actually.  The only factors are high drive (many small dogs are high drive, hunting and herding dogs don't need to be big, just look at Corgis and Jack Russells) and bad owners.

I also totally get your prior point about LE not being able to "police" or investigate every dog owner but here I think we end up with a legal/cultural difference.  In the US we have the 4th Amendment. 





> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



Dogs are considered property under the law so, as an example, in my State we have a dangerous dog law.  To be defined at such you need 2 attacks AND then the Law Enforcement Official (usually a Humane Officer or SPCA Officer) has to initiate a court proceeding.  If the Judge rules the Animal is indeed dangerous then the owner has one of three options.  

1. Spend A LOT of money having a kennel installed on their property (concrete slab, chain link fencing of a specific height etc.
2. Find a place that will take the dog.  There are rescue organizations in the US that will take such dogs and try to "reeducate" them.
3. Have it put down.

It is actually interesting just home many things in the US are different simply because of the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, how far their influence stretches.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You would have to walk around with a weapon in your hand all the time then. The military security here has attack dogs ( they are attack dogs not police dogs) and trust me they will attack quicker than you can draw your weapon or get your magic whip out. If you are walking down the street how fast do you think you can get any sort of weapon out before you are taken down by a dog or dogs. You have to be a really good shot to be able to shoot a fast moving target then you'd better make sure it's a killing shot because dogs have been shot before and still keep coming. I think you have an unrealistic idea of using whips etc as a defence in an everyday situation.




Then you have the dogs that don't die.  There is a reason we use shotguns to put down large animals hit by cars.  Their muscles are often more dense than ours, sometimes even bone, and anything short of a perfect head shot, or into the chest cavity, won't drop them.

We did a search warrant someday on a drug house.  The owner had a pitbull trained to attack and it did.  An officer hit it 5 times with a .40 cal in the back and sides and it simply wouldnt stop, it just slowed down, but it did run out of the house where one of the perimeter guys took it down with a shotgun as it went for the crowd that was forming.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Then you have the dogs that don't die.  There is a reason we use shotguns to put down large animals hit by cars.  Their muscles are often more dense than ours, sometimes even bone, and anything short of a perfect head shot, or into the chest cavity, won't drop them.
> 
> We did a search warrant someday on a drug house.  The owner had a pitbull trained to attack and it did.  An officer hit it 5 times with a .40 cal in the back and sides and it simply wouldnt stop, it just slowed down, but it did run out of the house where one of the perimeter guys took it down with a shotgun as it went for the crowd that was forming.



Here you go!  Shotgun is the best self-defense against dogs!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Then what's the whole point of discussion?  Defense against a dog for a farmer looks pretty simple to me: walk around with a shotgun and if you see a strange dog approaching shoot it down before it attacks.


A farmer walking around with a shotgun all day won't get much farming done.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2016)

A man was killed in the UK just two days ago by a dog, neighbours tried to help him, the dog was stabbed and hit and still carried on attacking. The man's dog a small Yorkshire terrier was badly injured.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> A farmer walking around with a shotgun all day won't get much farming done.



well, protecting livestock is essential part of farming in't it?  If sheep get killed by dogs with any regularity at all make perfect sense to get a shotgun and go about this business.  Or hire someone to do it.  Takes 1-2 times to kill the intruding dog to discourage other owners to bring their dogs to hunt on your property.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 17, 2016)

Sounds like dogs are a problem after all.  What breed was that btw?


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> well, protecting livestock is essential part of farming in't it?  If sheep get killed by dogs with any regularity at all make perfect sense to get a shotgun and go about this business.  Or hire someone to do it.  Takes 1-2 times to kill the intruding dog to discourage other owners to bring their dogs to hunt on your property.




A farmer is only going to get his shotgun if he knows there's a dog worrying sheep, he cannot patrol hundreds of thousands of acres of hills just in case. The Dales are a huge area and sheep roam freely.

It's owners that are the problem not the dogs, the breed was a pitbull type. The owner is being charged with the man's death though the dog will be put down.


----------



## Russian Whips (Aug 17, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> A farmer is only going to get his shotgun if he knows there's a dog worrying sheep, he cannot patrol hundreds of thousands of acres of hills just in case. The Dales are a huge area and sheep roam freely.
> 
> It's owners that are the problem not the dogs, the breed was a pitbull type. The owner is being charged with the man's death though the dog will be put down.




Modern technologies (like drones) allow one to patrol virtually thousands of acres.  Then if a farmer spots trouble - he can go exactly where it is and eliminate the threat.

That brings us back to the issue of banning certain dog types from public ownership, doesn't it?


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 17, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> A man was killed in the UK just two days ago by a dog, neighbours tried to help him, the dog was stabbed and hit and still carried on attacking. The man's dog a small Yorkshire terrier was badly injured.



Your mentioning of the dangerous dog act really got me looking into it and I am saying, no offense intended, what silly legislation.  In one year West Yorkshire spending over half a million £ on kenneling dangerous dogs?  This in light of the reality(imo) Ms Kisko relates



> Speaking to the BBC following the man's death Caroline Kisko, from the Kennel Club, said she believed the act was "completely flawed".
> 
> She said the legislation had led to people "being fooled into thinking that just the way a dog looks defines its behaviour".
> 
> ...



Now if just the above quote was in play (especially the last sentence which I agree with) I would just shrug.  However according to the BBC Greater Manchester and Merseyside forces each spend more than West Yorkshire.  So three areas spend well over a Billion and a half £ a year to comply with the act?  That is an insane amount of money based on a largely "it looks bad" statute.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2016)

Ah the Kennel Club which actually is responsible for some of the worst breeding mistake in dogs has an agenda.
The figures are ridiculous, for one thing the police don't kennel nor do they pay for dogs. They don't even have that much in their total budgets.
Drones, yeah really? Who has time to fly them, you're not a farmer obviously and seeing an attack and getting there are two different things, After a couple of hours travelling the dog would be long gone.

If you look here at the accounts of the West Yorkshire police you'll see the only dogs mentioned are the police dogs ( however I did notice a worrying amount of accident repair bills for vehicles!)   http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/sites/default/files/files/foi/published_january_-_march_2016.pdf


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2016)

Russian Whips said:


> Modern technologies (like drones) allow one to patrol virtually thousands of acres.  Then if a farmer spots trouble - he can go exactly where it is and eliminate the threat.
> 
> That brings us back to the issue of banning certain dog types from public ownership, doesn't it?


Um...no. Do you have any idea how much time would be involved in flying a drone over just a hundred acres a day? We're back to a farmer who doesn't farm.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

I now know the ultimate weapon to use against dogs, it's the purrfect solution.
Dog and owner sent to hospital after cat attacks seven pit bulls


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

Grab them at the lower ear and at the end of their jaw line and twist their head in a downward motion towards the ground and pin them, they will submit and will see you as the alpha. It really is that simple. Every pack follows the alpha....take that and they will follow you.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> Grab them at the lower ear and at the end of their jaw line and twist their head in a downward motion towards the ground and pin them, they will submit and will see you as the alpha. It really is that simple. Every pack follows the alpha....take that and they will follow you.



Of course....not. When they've leapt and are ripping your throat out I'm sure that will do the trick. Simplistic in the extreme.


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Of course....not. When they've leapt and are ripping your throat out I'm sure that will do the trick. Simplistic in the extreme.


It works for me everytime. Its where their power is and where their power is nullified. Regardless of whether or not they are trained. And, a dog lunging, is the best example how easily this works. Tried and tested several times.

If a dog has made it to your throat...you are simply inexperienced.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> It works for me everytime. Its where their power is and where their power is nullified. Regardless of whether or not they are trained. And, a dog lunging, is the best example how easily this works. Tried and tested several times.
> 
> If a dog has made it to your throat...you are simply inexperienced.



Oh dear.


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

Of another example, if they get ahold of your hand, turn your hand(it will hurt) and shove it down their throat, suffocate them and and tend to your wounds. Worked for me at 14yrs old with a pitbull.

Dog gone now.


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear.


Yes, I can understand your inexperienced response.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I now know the ultimate weapon to use against dogs, it's the purrfect solution.
> Dog and owner sent to hospital after cat attacks seven pit bulls


This could easily happen to my Labrador-Pitbull mix. She's an idiot.


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

Right back at ya


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> Right back at ya


Very mature. I just don't get folks who see "dislike" as an attack. If you disliked my post, then you disliked it before I rated yours. It's just a way to communicate, not a reason to say "nuh-uh - you are!"


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Very mature. I just don't get folks who see "dislike" as an attack. If you disliked my post, then you disliked it before I rated yours. It's just a way to communicate, not a reason to say "nuh-uh - you are!"


If that makes you feel better...go with that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> If that makes you feel better...go with that.


You'd like me to have a different interpretation of your action? That would require some input from you, other than "right back at ya".


----------



## stonewall1350 (Aug 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> A farmer is only going to get his shotgun if he knows there's a dog worrying sheep, he cannot patrol hundreds of thousands of acres of hills just in case. The Dales are a huge area and sheep roam freely.
> 
> It's owners that are the problem not the dogs, the breed was a pitbull type. The owner is being charged with the man's death though the dog will be put down.



Positive it was a "put bull?" They are one of the most misidentified dogs on the planet. I've seen boxers and mastiffs labeled as pits before lol. Not even remotely the same breed. Much different personalities. Especially in how they think.

What hurts the breed of pits is that they are so damned independent. They think for themselves. If you train dogs...you know that isn't what you want. You want them to do as you say when you say. 

Anyway. I've always been of the view that it doesn't matter what weapon you have. It is a lot easier to avoid a dog if you simply react properly. If the question is...what do you do if it is attacking you? Depends on the breed. Not too threatened by a deadly dachshund lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> You'd like me to have a different interpretation of your action? That would require some input from you, other than "right back at ya".


Not really, over the last month, I have lost respect for your and Tez's opinions. To much drama. I know you disliked it because of the attitude, but it is funny, to me, that Tez's negative attitude towards my comment, escaped your thought process.

Drama, that is all you two are after.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

stonewall1350 said:


> Positive it was a "put bull?"



The report said 'pitbull *type*' not pitbull as such. The owner was young and male. the problem is more the owners than the dogs, many owners want something on the end of the lead that makes them look hard, bling the dog up with a spiked collar and a chain for a lead, make it growl and bark at everyone, wind it up so it goes for people and voila you have a 'problem' dog.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> Not really, over the last month, I have lost respect for your and Tez's opinions. To much drama. I know you disliked it because of the attitude, but it is funny, to me, that Tez's negative attitude towards my comment, escaped your thought process.
> 
> Drama, that is all you two are after.


If you choose to see it that way, I can live with that. Personally, I am here to share ideas with other martial artists and learn. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I like drama - I have little patience for it, myself. But you are certainly entitled to that opinion.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The report said 'pitbull *type*' not pitbull as such. The owner was young and male. the problem is more the owners than the dogs, many owners want something on the end of the lead that makes them look hard, bling the dog up with a spiked collar and a chain for a lead, make it growl and bark at everyone, wind it up so it goes for people and voila you have a 'problem' dog.


When I was growing up, I had a neighbor who had a rottweiler he tried to train to be mean. Our mailbox was against their fence, so I took her a dog biscuit every time I got the mail. The guy couldn't figure out why his dog wouldn't bark and growl at me.


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> If you choose to see it that way, I can live with that. Personally, I am here to share ideas with other martial artists and learn. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I like drama - I have little patience for it, myself. But you are certainly entitled to that opinion.


You are correct...but it is more of an observation...not an opinion. But, you can call it what you want.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> Yes, I can understand your inexperienced response.



Sweetie, trust me I'm experienced.    I've even done police dog handling as well.  I'm sure lots of things have worked for you, can't see you fighting off a military attack dog though however much fun that would be.


----------



## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Sweetie, trust me I'm experienced.    I've even done police dog handling as well.  I'm sure lots of things have worked for you, can't see you fighting off a military attack dog though however much fun that would be.


It would be a dead dog honey. I have a friend that trains police dogs. His thought was the same as yours, didnt buy it. Wanted me to put the suit on and try, I declined the suit but accepted his challenge on 3 different dogs, same result...the last one was very aggressive (his personal pick). It ended when he said "please dont kill my dog".

I think people give attack dogs to much credit. The only weapon they have, are teeth, thats it, nuetralize that and they are useless.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

Guthrie said:


> It would be a dead dog honey. I have a friend that trains police dogs. His thought was the same as yours, didnt buy it. Wanted me to put the suit on and try, I declined the suit but accepted his challenge on 3 different dogs, same result...the last one was very aggressive (his personal pick). It ended when he said "please dont kill my dog".
> 
> I think people give attack dogs to much credit. The only weapon they have, are teeth, thats it, nuetralize that and they are useless.



I like people with a good sense of humour, always like a good wind up too but you have to be careful not to go OTT.
Your friend, I guarantee, wouldn't think like me, unless of course he thinks you are a bit of a fantasist too of course. You realise of course, baiting in a suit with a dog trained to go for the arm isn't exactly what we are talking about don't you?  There is a big difference between police dogs and attack dogs btw.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 18, 2016)

Strangely enough.we have a town full of pig hunting dogs.  But dont seem to have many attacks. 

Better ownership or more stable personalities in the dogs mabye?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2016)

stonewall1350 said:


> Positive it was a "put bull?" They are one of the most misidentified dogs on the planet. I've seen boxers and mastiffs labeled as pits before lol. Not even remotely the same breed. Much different personalities. Especially in how they think.
> 
> What hurts the breed of pits is that they are so damned independent. They think for themselves. If you train dogs...you know that isn't what you want. You want them to do as you say when you say.
> 
> ...


Some of them can't seem to think, at all, much less for themselves. (Reference my quote about my intelligence-deficient pit-mix.)


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Strangely enough.we have a town full of pig hunting dogs.  But dont seem to have many attacks.
> 
> Better ownership or more stable personalities in the dogs mabye?



I imagine it's because they are working dogs who are trained and aren't used to boost their owner's egos.


----------



## stungunsusa (Sep 15, 2016)

I usually don't have issues with dogs attacking me. It's the ones that steal your identity that suck! One minute hes mans best friend! The next, hes stealing your checkbook and commiting fraud smashing your good name and bringing down your 775 FICO.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2016)

Mum and grandmother jailed after American pitbull killed baby in 'tragic and totally avoidable' incident - AOL News UK


----------



## Buka (Sep 15, 2016)

Watch yourselves, this thread is being watched.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2016)

Yes, it is...


----------



## Juany118 (Sep 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I like people with a good sense of humour, always like a good wind up too but you have to be careful not to go OTT.
> Your friend, I guarantee, wouldn't think like me, unless of course he thinks you are a bit of a fantasist too of course. You realise of course, baiting in a suit with a dog trained to go for the arm isn't exactly what we are talking about don't you?  There is a big difference between police dogs and attack dogs btw.



You beat me to it.  Working dogs aren't trained to go for the throat they are trained to apprehend so they go for the easiest bits to get to, namely the limbs.  Then you add in the other factor, how are they being trained.  Our dogs are trained to be very high drive.  Other departments get dogs with less drive because they also want them to tolerate a kid petting them at a PR rally.  These dogs are actually usually good off a lead for searches as well. We do demonstrations but no one but the handler touches the dogs and the dogs are never off the lead unless the handler can't follow or its apprehension time.


----------



## Buka (Sep 16, 2016)

For those that haven't, if you ever get the opportunity to put on a bite suit and have a trained police or military dog come get you - by all means do it. It's a heck of a thing.

Then read this whole thread again.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 16, 2016)

Buka said:


> For those that haven't, if you ever get the opportunity to put on a bite suit and have a trained police or military dog come get you - by all means do it. It's a heck of a thing.
> 
> Then read this whole thread again.



If it's a military dog please check what type, that's it's a military *police* dog not an *attack *dog lol. I doubt a handler of an attack dog would let you bait the dog but you never know so check! It is an interesting experience I agree.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> If it's a military dog please check what type, that's it's a military *police* dog not an *attack *dog lol. I doubt a handler of an attack dog would let you bait the dog but you never know so check! It is an interesting experience I agree.


Christopher Titus (comedian) has a bit on his experience doing this. It's worth listening to, if only to understand why comedians shouldn't mess with those dogs.


----------



## Juany118 (Sep 16, 2016)

Buka said:


> For those that haven't, if you ever get the opportunity to put on a bite suit and have a trained police or military dog come get you - by all means do it. It's a heck of a thing.
> 
> Then read this whole thread again.


I remember an old partner using me for a demo with his K-9.  The pooch dragged me from the pitchers mound to first base after he (the pooch) took me down.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I remember an old partner using me for a demo with his K-9.  The pooch dragged me from the pitchers mound to first base after he (the pooch) took me down.


Is it entirely kosher to refer to a K-9 officer as a "pooch"?


----------

