# Help me choose a grappling art



## Flea

I never thought I'd pose this question in a million years.  :roflmao:

But there you have it.  I want a good supplement to my Systema.  Yes, Systema has grappling, but I'd like to branch out a little and see what else is out there.  SD, as always, is my top priority so I'd want something that provides for escape.  And I'm not a big fan of being thrown because it's tough on my poor backal region.  I'm also quite petite.

So ... any suggestions?


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## K831

As per usual, more than the art, I would make the instructor and the school the more prominent deciding issue. 

If you are looking for SD, I would personally avoid sport oriented grappling classes. You don't want to be conditioning and learning how to stay on the ground and roll around hunting for submissions as a small female who is trying to address SD situations. 

Find a school that teaches from a perspective that understands:

1.) You are easy to take down/throw, and rape happens from a guard position.
2.) as such, prevention of the above is first priority, ESCAPE from is second (not staying there trying to submit.)
3.) Class should take into account the importance of positioning to strike soft targets, draw/deploy and utilize both carried and improvised weapons while on the ground. 
4.) Class should work on striking from the ground while in grappling range, but also, if you are downed and the opponent is standing

Any grappling art (wrestling/catch/BJJ/JJ/Judo) can be tailored to the above by a competent and experienced instructor. 

However, in my opinion, western wrestling and Judo based curriculum lend them selves to the above more readily than BJJ for a few reasons; 1.) Wrestling and Judo have a much greater focus on take down defense, and wrestling is much more focused on achieving and maintaining top control and positions which lend themselves more to striking and returning to ones feet.  BJJ classes tend to be more focused on ring oriented competition and submissions - neither are a great choice for a small gal seeking SD. 

Just my .02

EDIT: Judo does a lot of throwing (which you don't want) but my instructor (who is both a wrestler and Judo player) does not have us throw anyone who doesn't want to be thrown, and has a lot of classes dedicated to "surviving the ground" without throwing at all. All about the instructor and his curriculum.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I would advise you to check around and find a grappling instructor that you like.  You will have a much better time and probably stick with it.  Judo, Wrestling are both very good but.... I would always go with Brazilian Jiujitsu as it simply has more options open to you. ie. jacket chokes, more choking techniques in general, armbars, etc.  It also works well for women and I have seen sixteen year old girls tie up thirty and forty year old men. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   The only other option that I personally feel is equal or maybe even better is Sambo.  If you look around you can easily find a BJJ coach who will tailer it to your self defense needs rather than competition!  Good luck and look around!


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## K831

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would advise you to check around and find a grappling instructor that you like.  You will have a much better time and probably stick with it.  Judo, Wrestling are both very good but.... I would always go with Brazilian Jiujitsu as it simply has more options open to you. ie. jacket chokes, more choking techniques in general, armbars, etc.  It also works well for women and I have seen sixteen year old girls tie up thirty and forty year old men.
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> The only other option that I personally feel is equal or maybe even better is Sambo.  If you look around you can easily find a BJJ coach who will tailer it to your self defense needs rather than competition!  Good luck and look around!



Agreed about Sambo. I have seen the lapel chokes etc in Judo as well as JJJ etc. 

Never in my life have I seen or found a small female who could execute submissions with  high percentage against a non compliant and committed man, especially when being attempted outside "BJJ" rules. Many times I have pealed off chokes etc from women who were far superior grapplers than me. They just didn't have the strength. I can break them in so many ways at contact manipulation range before they can stop the threat. I really think submissions should be a last resort for women in SD.


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## Thesemindz

If you're looking for self defense, I'd look for a school that teaches you to _hurt_ people, rather than _beat_ people. Ask around your current training group first. You might already have someone who has something to offer, or at least get a reference. Failing that, call around, try some classes. Look for an instructor who's willing to tailor his instruction to your interests. Many of the techniques are going to be similar from school to school regardless of style. There's only so many ways to sit on a person and smash their head into the ground. Most of the differences will be in training method, philosophy, and finishing techniques.

Kajukenbo has a reputation for teaching grappling techniques with a striking, standing, and escaping philosophy. So does Krav Maga. Hapkido and JJJ schools are more likely to be taught as war arts. BJJ, Judo, and Western Wrestling are more likely to be taught as peace arts. But you can find TKD guys and kenpo guys teaching grappling classes these days too. You just have to look around.

I think the advice from *K831* was all accurate.



> Find a school that teaches from a perspective that understands:
> 
> 1.) You are easy to take down/throw, and rape happens from a guard position.
> 2.) as such, prevention of the above is first priority, ESCAPE from is second (not staying there trying to submit.)
> 3.) Class should take into account the importance of positioning to strike soft targets, draw/deploy and utilize both carried and improvised weapons while on the ground.
> 4.) Class should work on striking from the ground while in grappling range, but also, if you are downed and the opponent is standing



Any good instructor can teach you that, but not all instructors are interested in it. I don't teach sport grappling, many sport grapplers won't teach self defense. That doesn't mean their art won't work in a self defense situation, just that they don't train for that arena. We don't train for the ring.

Find an instructor you like. With no standard of quality in the martial arts community picking a style by name isn't very effective. A great style's name can be on the sign of some really awful schools. You want an instructor you can trust who knows what he's talking about, and the only way to find out if that's the case is to try some classes.

Good luck. I really enjoy ground fighting. It's a valuable skill, and a lot of fun to train in.


-Rob


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## Flea

Sambo?  Awesome!  I hadn't even thought of that.  

I went online and looked up grappling arts in my city, and I found one gym that offers JJ and BJJ.  Best of all it's very accessible to me by bus, which is a big priority for me as well.  Sambo isn't listed on their schedule, but the website says one the instructors is certified to teach it. I'll give them a call.


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## Steve

What's the school, Flea?  If you have questions about BJJ schools in your area, I might be able to help, particularly in the Pac. NW.


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## Flea

(Sent via PM.  If anyone else is interested, I can send it out to them as well.)


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## lklawson

Flea said:


> I never thought I'd pose this question in a million years.  :roflmao:
> 
> But there you have it.  I want a good supplement to my Systema.  Yes, Systema has grappling, but I'd like to branch out a little and see what else is out there.  SD, as always, is my top priority so I'd want something that provides for escape.  And I'm not a big fan of being thrown because it's tough on my poor backal region.  I'm also quite petite.
> 
> So ... any suggestions?


Judo, BJJ, Catch Wrestling (the old school stuff), or Sambo are the most readily accessible which teach decent grappling skills.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

K831 said:


> As per usual, more than the art, I would make the instructor and the school the more prominent deciding issue.
> 
> If you are looking for SD, I would personally avoid sport oriented grappling classes. You don't want to be conditioning and learning how to stay on the ground and roll around hunting for submissions as a small female who is trying to address SD situations.


It's important to be able to work in this context because, quite simply, it's very easy to force the fight there, particularly if the person forcing the fight is bigger and/or stronger.  Surely you've seen someone losing a fist-fight barnacle on to his opponent and drag him inelegantly to the floor?



> EDIT: Judo does a lot of throwing (which you don't want)


Umm... What?  Throwing is very important to self defense oriented work.  There are only about 5 or 7 basic throws but a myriad of variations among them.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Thesemindz said:


> But you can find TKD guys and kenpo guys teaching grappling classes these days too.


I'd be wary of these.  In the last 10 years or so, I've seen a lot of TKD and Karate schools hanging shingles that say they now teach Grappling or MMA.  My experience is that they're not really all that good at it.  If you're lucky, the guy is taking BJJ or Judo classes on the side (Yudo if he's TKD) and incorporating that into his stuff.  If you're not lucky, he bought a DVD on grappling to "augment" his curriculum.

Short circuit the whole thing and just got take BJJ or Judo.  

Of the two, I prefer Judo but, honestly, the BJJ guys are more likely to have a secondary "MMA" class in their curriculum which will teach you to effectively blend striking and grappling.  Don't see that too often in Judo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

stevebjj said:


> What's the school, Flea?  If you have questions about BJJ schools in your area, I might be able to help, particularly in the Pac. NW.


Listen to Steve.  He knows what's what in BJJ.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Thesemindz

lklawson said:


> I'd be wary of these.  In the last 10 years or so, I've seen a lot of TKD and Karate schools hanging shingles that say they now teach Grappling or MMA.  My experience is that they're not really all that good at it.  If you're lucky, the guy is taking BJJ or Judo classes on the side (Yudo if he's TKD) and incorporating that into his stuff.  If you're not lucky, he bought a DVD on grappling to "augment" his curriculum.
> 
> Short circuit the whole thing and just got take BJJ or Judo.
> 
> Of the two, I prefer Judo but, honestly, the BJJ guys are more likely to have a secondary "MMA" class in their curriculum which will teach you to effectively blend striking and grappling.  Don't see that too often in Judo.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I'd be wary of any instructor of any style. Regardless of what it says on his sign, you won't know what he's teaching until you go in and try a class. If you're lucky, you might find something really useful and interesting. If you're not lucky, you go try another school.


-Rob


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## msmitht

Bjj. Gracie academy style is best for pure self defense on the ground. Not sport oriented at all. Gb, atos, att, humatia are all good but there is more sport focus. Judo for throws but can be rough till you learn the falls. Wresting for speed but will lead to you turning your back on the ground.


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## Flea

msmitht said:


> Gb, atos, att, humatia are all good



Are those acronyms?  I haven't heard those terms before.


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## Brian R. VanCise

K831 said:


> Agreed about Sambo. I have seen the lapel chokes etc in Judo as well as JJJ etc.
> 
> Never in my life have I seen or found a small female who could execute submissions with high percentage against a non compliant and committed man, especially when being attempted outside "BJJ" rules. Many times I have pealed off chokes etc from women who were far superior grapplers than me. They just didn't have the strength. I can break them in so many ways at contact manipulation range before they can stop the threat. I really think submissions should be a last resort for women in SD.


 
There are simply huge attribute advantages to being a male vs. a female in grappling.  Yet I have seen both young women and older fare very well.  Here is a video clip of a woman dismantling a very, very fit young man.

[yt]CYGY_FMnrD8&feature=related[/yt]
The match starts around 7:42 or so!


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## Steve

Flea said:


> Are those acronyms? I haven't heard those terms before.


 They're different affiliations.  GB = Gracie Barra, perhaps the biggest. 

Others include Alliance, Gracie Humaita, Checkmat... there are many.


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## oftheherd1

Flea said:


> I never thought I'd pose this question in a million years. :roflmao:
> 
> But there you have it. I want a good supplement to my Systema. Yes, Systema has grappling, but I'd like to branch out a little and see what else is out there. SD, as always, is my top priority so I'd want something that provides for escape. And I'm not a big fan of being thrown because it's tough on my poor backal region. I'm also quite petite.
> 
> So ... any suggestions?


 
Interesting to see only 1 or 2 mentions of Hapkido. Hapkido is primarily a defense oriented art. That offense taught is usually just before the next black belt rank, and is a modification of one of the defensive techniques already learned. However, there are indeed throws. If you were to decide on Hapkido, be sure it is one that teaches breakfalls as a regular part of skills. 

Aikido is another. Again, breakfalls are a regular part of continuing education. From what I know of it, it is a little different in that it seems to be content with allowing an attacker to tire and decide to go home if possible. Hapkido tends towards an attitude of I didn't want to be bothered to begin with, and I don't intend to be bothered again.

Seeing they are both defensive in basic nature, there are plenty of escapes from different attacks and holds. Some attack joints, some pressure points, and most combine the two.   There are also escapes from being in the sitting position as well as on the ground.  There is no punch, kick, hold, or weapon that a defense against isn't learned.

Just another option you might want to consider.


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## lklawson

oftheherd1 said:


> Interesting to see only 1 or 2 mentions of Hapkido.


Because most of the Hapkido that I've seen is, in essence, TKD with some standing joint-locks mixed in and very little/no ground grappling.  Further, the experience is that most sparring in HKD does not include grappling, particularly ground grappling.

YMMV of course, but that seems to be the typical setup for HKD.



> Aikido is another. Again, breakfalls are a regular part of continuing education. From what I know of it, it is a little different in that it seems to be content with allowing an attacker to tire and decide to go home if possible.


Aikido's "grappling" is very narrow focus.  Aikido looks at one particular element of fighting (Aiki/"Blending") and elevates that but at the expense of all other elements.  The problem is, in order to fully functionalize the skills Aikido teaches, you really need to have a solid foundation in the fundamentals, otherwise it's an art with no way to express itself under stress (noted prodigies excepted, of course).  Aikido is the calculus of the martial arts world.  It's no good to try to learn calculus if you've never learned basic math (noted prodigies excepted, of course).

If I had my way no one would be allowed to learn Aikido unless they had a minimum of 2-5 years prior experience in something else.  Karate, Boxing, Judo, whatever.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian King

Flea,
Congratulations, it shows the hard work that you have put into discovering/understanding yourself, recognizing the injury/weakness to your psyche and doing the very difficult work necessary to strengthen and repair the psyche. It was what, only two years ago and you could not grapple or face contact at all with out severe negative reaction to it. Slowly by gaining understanding of breathing and relaxation and working with understanding partners and instructors bit by bit you have increased your tolerance of the contact. So many give up on the battle Flea and yet you remained and persevered until here you are now asking for more grappling. An amazing accomplishment and one you and your instructors and class mates should be proud of.

*Flea wrote*


> SD, as always, is my top priority so I'd want something that provides for escape.



I would recommend any of the pure grappling programs with the caveat that you do not worry too much about self defense with any of them, far more important in my opinion is that you get along with the instructor and fellow students and that the environment is safe and not too competitive. They are sport arts and should, in my opinion, in your case be trained as such. Grappling for grapplings own sake is fun and very healthy. Watch untrained children wrassling and seek to recapture that feel of enjoyment and joy that contact and movement can bring. The grappling sports can teach and practice some self defensive attributes no doubt, but their ideas of what escape means in both physical and spiritual terms if addressed at all will be likely be very different. Rather than trying to shoehorn them into your self defense model perhaps accept them as they are and seek the enjoyment and lessons they can offer. I STRONGLY recommend dousing after those kinds of workouts. 

I would also recommend prior to your regular class, grab a student or two and a knife or three or a rifle or pistol, and do some ground work to help warm up and get in some time on the floor. Ten minutes each practice adds up over time. At the end of class again grab a student or two but rather than working on self defense or serious work just roll around and grapple for movements sake, not trying to choke, arm-bar or submit but just sweeps and reversals, movement and flowing with a partner(s) for the pleasure and health benefits that contact brings. Think moving massage and relaxation rather than submitting and glory. Think calming work rather than cardiovascular aerobic work. This practice if done correctly should calm your psyche after class not ramp it up. It should increase your tolerance of the type work not reintroduce fear.

Good luck and again congratulations. 
Regards
Brian King


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## Flea

I thought you'd appreciate it Brian.  :ultracool


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## Brian King

> "I thought you'd appreciate it Brian."



Right you are Flea. 

Your journey might make a interesting and helpful thread in the women of martial arts section. Where you were when you started the journey, some of the issues faced, how you faced them, lessons learned along the way...that sort of thing. To not only help others that may be facing similar internal conflicts and experiences but to help others when giving  'advice' or working with ladies facing the battle. 

Again, congratulations and good luck with your training.

Regards
Brian King


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## Flea

Good suggestion Brian.  I'll chew on it, and see what happens.


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## oftheherd1

lklawson said:


> Because most of the Hapkido that I've seen is, in essence, TKD with some standing joint-locks mixed in and very little/no ground grappling. Further, the experience is that most sparring in HKD does not include grappling, particularly ground grappling.
> 
> YMMV of course, but that seems to be the typical setup for HKD.
> 
> Aikido's "grappling" is very narrow focus. Aikido looks at one particular element of fighting (Aiki/"Blending") and elevates that but at the expense of all other elements. The problem is, in order to fully functionalize the skills Aikido teaches, you really need to have a solid foundation in the fundamentals, otherwise it's an art with no way to express itself under stress (noted prodigies excepted, of course). Aikido is the calculus of the martial arts world. It's no good to try to learn calculus if you've never learned basic math (noted prodigies excepted, of course).
> 
> If I had my way no one would be allowed to learn Aikido unless they had a minimum of 2-5 years prior experience in something else. Karate, Boxing, Judo, whatever.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
Wow!  Indeed my mileage has varied.  I never saw a Hapkido that was as you described.  At least in my style, we defend against all forms of attacks.  In the lower belts, we first learned grappling from grabs to all parts of the body.  Then we went on to defense against punches, then against kicks.  A little of striking and kicking, then more defense against both.  Then on to some lapel grab defenses, and on to some throw defenses.  After that knife defense (That has now been moved to 2nd Dan I understand), a little offense, which was primarily adaptations of defenses, and black belt test.  There are no forms.  You are right that we don't spare as a TKD artist would do.  It would be too dangerous.  However, practice of being attacted in some manner and reacting to it are often done.

After attaining BB, you learn more grabs, punch and kick defenses, sword defense, and defense using the short stick.  Some very basic sword techniques are taught.  There are defenses from sitting position, and while on the ground and being attacked.  Other types of attacks/holds are defended against, such as head locks, choke holds, etc.

After attaining 2nd dan, you learn defenses against many of the defenses learned in the colored belts, and a lot of short stick defenses.  More basic sword practice as well.  I don't know about 4th Dan teaching, but I was told there are a lot of healing techniques.  I never got to continue my training to find out.

Throughout all, there are blocks, strikes and kicks used, joint manipulation, pressure points, and throws, and of course combinations of all those.

I studied TKD many years ago.  I assure you the Hapkido I learned was nothing like TKD.

I am not an Aikido practicioner, but I played one on TV.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Not!  But I am acquainted with a practitioner, and we trade skills.  His Aikido and the Aikido you describe aren't the same either.  You do not need knowledge of other MA to be successful in Aikido, at least as he learned it.  And if anyone is curious, you don't need it as a prerequisite for Hapkido either.

What Hapkido have you seen or studied?


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## lklawson

oftheherd1 said:


> Wow!  Indeed my mileage has varied.  I never saw a Hapkido that was as you described.  At least in my style, we defend against all forms of attacks.  In the lower belts, we first learned grappling from grabs to all parts of the body.  Then we went on to defense against punches, then against kicks.  A little of striking and kicking, then more defense against both.  Then on to some lapel grab defenses, and on to some throw defenses.  After that knife defense (That has now been moved to 2nd Dan I understand), a little offense, which was primarily adaptations of defenses, and black belt test.  There are no forms.  You are right that we don't spare as a TKD artist would do.  It would be too dangerous.  However, practice of being attacted in some manner and reacting to it are often done.
> 
> After attaining BB, you learn more grabs, punch and kick defenses, sword defense, and defense using the short stick.  Some very basic sword techniques are taught.  There are defenses from sitting position, and while on the ground and being attacked.  Other types of attacks/holds are defended against, such as head locks, choke holds, etc.
> 
> After attaining 2nd dan, you learn defenses against many of the defenses learned in the colored belts, and a lot of short stick defenses.  More basic sword practice as well.  I don't know about 4th Dan teaching, but I was told there are a lot of healing techniques.  I never got to continue my training to find out.
> 
> Throughout all, there are blocks, strikes and kicks used, joint manipulation, pressure points, and throws, and of course combinations of all those.


So, no ground grappling and no grappling during sparring.



> I am not an Aikido practicioner, but I played one on TV.
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> Not!  But I am acquainted with a practitioner, and we trade skills.  His Aikido and the Aikido you describe aren't the same either.  You do not need knowledge of other MA to be successful in Aikido, at least as he learned it.


I am Yudansha in Aikido.  I am not pulling this opinion out of my butt.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian King

This section of the forum is called "Competitive Arts > Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling" I do not think that competitive means this art vs that art ego stroking, but refers to sporting grappling competitions and training. I am assuming that this section of the forum was chosen for the original post for a reason.

Regards
Brian King


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## K831

lklawson said:


> It's important to be able to work in this context because, quite simply, it's very easy to force the fight there, particularly if the person forcing the fight is bigger and/or stronger.  Surely you've seen someone losing a fist-fight barnacle on to his opponent and drag him inelegantly to the floor?



I would suggest you read my posts a little more carefully. I never suggested that one shouldn't be able to work in this context, or that one can avoid that context in all situations. In fact, I said the opposite, I merely clarified "how" a female should learn to work in that context.... there is a difference between ground fighting, and submission wrestling. 



lklawson said:


> Umm... What?  Throwing is very important to self defense oriented work.  There are only about 5 or 7 basic throws but a myriad of variations among them.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Again, you are not reading the thread carefuly enough. I included Judo in my list of recomended arts, however I made the comment to which you are referring "Judo has a lot of throwing, which you don't want" not because I am suggesting one doesn't want throws in their skill set, but because the OP had said they didn't want to do a lot of throwing. I was merely clarifying how some of the arts fit the criteria the OP listed. 

I appreciate your responses, however, you comments to my posts were miss-placed.


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## lklawson

K831 said:


> I appreciate your responses, however, you comments to my posts were miss-placed.


Fair enough.  Perhaps I did misunderstand the points you were hoping to make.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## oftheherd1

lklawson said:


> So, no ground grappling and no grappling during sparring.
> 
> I am Yudansha in Aikido. I am not pulling this opinion out of my butt.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
I'm not sure how you mean ground grappling.  We do train on defenses against being on the ground, sitting with attacks from front on rear, and being flat on our backs with someone on top, trying to strike or choke.  In my style that was between 1st and 2nd Dan.  As to sparing, that seems dangerous.  I don't know what may be taught at 4th Dan or higher.  We did spar on occassion, usually after a testing session.  But we sparred more as a TKDist would spar.  Using our techniques at full speed would often injure an opponent unless we pulled the response.  Not necessarily a good approach.

Congratulations on you accomplishment in Aikido.  As I said, I have never studied that art.  I willl say, that with the minimal training I had in TKD, as I became more proficient in Hapkido, I did sometimes wonder if more training in punching would have been benificial.  I never discussed it with my GM, and never came to any real solid conclusions.  I certainly have seen students who had no previous training seem unhandicapped even with no previous training.  I think as long as a punch is coming at full speed, the technical aspect of the punch is less important that the proper response.  And we did do a lot of kicking; for practice, stamina, and concentration.  We had some high kicks, but really, other than a heel-down kick to someone on the ground, considered middle and low kicks our real weapons.  Other styles may do it differently, and that is fine.

If you wish to discuss that further, not to hijack the thread, I suggest we continue the discussion in the Hapkido forum.  :asian:


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## lklawson

oftheherd1 said:


> I'm not sure how you mean ground grappling.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newaza#Ground_grappling



> As to sparing, that seems dangerous.


Several arts incorporate standing grappling in their randori.  Judo is a prime example.



> I don't know what may be taught at 4th Dan or higher.  We did spar on occassion, usually after a testing session.  But we sparred more as a TKDist would spar.


OK.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Thesemindz

K831 said:


> there is a difference between ground fighting, and submission wrestling.





K831 said:


> there is a difference between ground fighting, and submission wrestling.





K831 said:


> there is a difference between ground fighting, and submission wrestling.





K831 said:


> there is a difference between ground fighting, and submission wrestling.





K831 said:


> there is a difference between ground fighting, and submission wrestling.



I wish more people could hear and internalize this simple concept. _Fighting _on the ground is an important and valuable skill. But _staying _on the ground is a bad idea. Especially in a crowded, hostile, poorly lit, obstructed environment. That is the difference I was referring to up thread between "peace" arts and "war" arts. A competition art will encourage you to close, stay closed, and win the battle through technical skill. The whole concept, the limitation of techniques, the ring, the judges, the rules, is designed to determine _who the best fighter is_. A self defense art will encourage you to evade, escape, and cheat. The whole concept, the inclusion of an ever expanding technique base, the lack of a ring, or judges, or rules, is designed to determine who is left, and who is *dead*.

There is a ton to learn from competitive grappling arts. They have taken the techniques they use and elevated them to an extremely high skill level by using those techniques against other highly trained practitioners in a very controlled environment. Think of boxing. When you only have a few techniques, and you can only use them against a few targets, then the guy who is the more technically skilled fighter will win. But that is not the approach that a small woman wants to use for self defense. In self defense, she doesn't want to outskill her opponent. She wants to survive. Even if the techniques are taught with a mind towards self defense, the scenarios they are taught in in a competitive art may be completely contrary to a self defense approach. 

And vice versa. My students wouldn't thrive in competition. Because in competition you can't hit someone from behind and kick them while they are on the ground. Or stick your fingers in their eyes. Or break their toes. Or box their ears. Self defense training isn't about being the best fighter, it's about being the one who goes home and see's his family one more time. There's nothing wrong with judo, or MMA, or BJJ, and I don't doubt for a second that there are some extremely formidable fighters in those arts. This is a different point. This is a point about _how_ you train. Not what you train.


-Rob


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## Thesemindz

oftheherd1 said:


> I think as long as a punch is coming at full speed, the technical aspect of the punch is less important that the proper response.



I have to disagree with this. I don't think you can properly understand how to defend against an attack unless you understand how to properly execute the attack. If you aren't punching properly, then how do you know your punch defense would work against someone who does? I don't train to beat up civilians. I always assume my opponent will be bigger, faster, meaner, and more highly skilled.

The attack is just as important as the defense. You can't train a proper response without the proper stimulus. At least, that's my approach.


-Rob


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## oftheherd1

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Quote:
Originally Posted by *oftheherd1* 

 
_I'm not sure how you mean ground grappling._

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newaza#Ground_grappling


Quote:
As to sparing, that seems dangerous. 
Several arts incorporate standing grappling in their randori. Judo is a prime example.


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I don't know what may be taught at 4th Dan or higher. We did spar on occassion, usually after a testing session. But we sparred more as a TKDist would spar. 
OK.

 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Well, I had suggested we move this to another thread, but perhaps given the title of this thread, further discussion is warranted.

Indeed we don't do grappling as in your wikipedia example, nor as in Judo. Hapkido as I learned it is not a sport, nor really, does it have rules in defense other than make it work, and defend yourself without injury to yourself. We do have practice opponents grab us, or strike at us, or kick at us, and we apply a technique. Having an opponent attack us at speed without knowing what the attack will be, then reacting to that attact without the opponent knowing which technique will be used; no doubt it would work sometimes, but I still think it would lead to injury more often than not. Perhaps in your studies that was not so.


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## oftheherd1

Thesemindz said:


> I have to disagree with this. I don't think you can properly understand how to defend against an attack unless you understand how to properly execute the attack. If you aren't punching properly, then how do you know your punch defense would work against someone who does? I don't train to beat up civilians. I always assume my opponent will be bigger, faster, meaner, and more highly skilled.
> 
> The attack is just as important as the defense. You can't train a proper response without the proper stimulus. At least, that's my approach.
> 
> 
> -Rob


 
Maybe I said it without sufficient explanation.  If you throw a punch at me with tremendous speed and power, and a bent wrist, you may break your wrist.  You will likely hurt me too.  I don't care if your wrist is bent, I will defend against the punch.  For punches and kicks, we tend to train against a martial artist's type of attack.  That would likely be the most dangerous.  But a technique will work against a non-martial artist's punch or kick as well.

I don't know if that explains it or not.


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