# Standing, bones and breath



## Elbowgrease (Jan 4, 2016)

So I've been standing in training for the last few months. Just standing. Occasionally moving just a little bit, but mostly just standing there. Staring at the white wall. Now it feels completely different. I'm starting to feel my bones. Starting to feel the space between them. Feeling my breath move them. Feeling my feet. My toes. My fourth toe. I started to move again on new years eve. Still not done standing there, but moving again now. It's been interesting. Anyone have any thoughts on that?


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## mograph (Jan 4, 2016)

Excellent. How do you maintain this sensitivity when you move?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 4, 2016)

Stance training is a big part of Xingyiquan and when I was training Xingyi and standing it ws at first painful and then when I got to about 15 minutes things got interesting and started to feel all sorts of connection...from head to toe

Xingyiquan Santi Shi Standing (XInggyiquan, and Yiquan)






also have done stance training using Zhan Zhuang (XInggyiquan, Yiquan and Taijiquan)





ad Wuji standing (XInggyiquan, Yiquan and Taijiquan)






I have found all of then rather beneficial. But then any posture will work, it is just some are harder than others to stand in for long period of time

If I may ask, what posture are you using to stand and how many minutes have you built to? and how long was it when you noticed the connections?


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## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2016)

As I don't do CMA I've never heard of this before and it sounds absolutely fascinating. Hope you don't mind if I follow this thread with great interest.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 4, 2016)

Elbowgrease said:


> Just standing. ... Anyone have any thoughts on that?


- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than to be dead.

The moving water won't grow bugs. The daily used garbage disposal won't get rusty.

When you move a

- tree, that tree may die.
- person, that person will live longer.

For example, you can train "*钝链割谷(Dun Lian Ge Gu) - dull sickle cut rice*" through the static method.






But you can also train it through dynamic method. The CMA "十三太保 (13 Tai Bo)" has 13 static training postures. For each static training posture, it also has dynamic training posture. IMO, you will get more benefit out of your training through the dynamic method. The reason is simple. When you train the dynamic method, you also train the "application". This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.


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## mograph (Jan 4, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> As I don't do CMA I've never heard of this before and it sounds absolutely fascinating. Hope you don't mind if I follow this thread with great interest.


Stance training is the foundation of Yiquan, Tez3. Some see the practices as conditioning, useful to martial artists of many styles.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 4, 2016)

Elbowgrease said:


> So I've been standing in training for the last few months. Just standing. Occasionally moving just a little bit, but mostly just standing there. Staring at the white wall. Now it feels completely different. I'm starting to feel my bones. Starting to feel the space between them. Feeling my breath move them. Feeling my feet. My toes. My fourth toe. I started to move again on new years eve. Still not done standing there, but moving again now. It's been interesting. Anyone have any thoughts on that?



Interesting.  We train various stances, but nothing like that (Okinawan TMA).


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 4, 2016)

In some cases, such as Santi Shi in Xingyiquan, it is training structure as well. Ultimately you have to move and the idea is to be able to maintain and/or return to that structure without thinking.


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## mograph (Jan 4, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, you will get more benefit out of your training through the dynamic method. The reason is simple. When you train the dynamic method, you also train the "application". This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.



Attempting to kill two birds with one stone by combining two practices simultaneously isn't always productive: often the focus is divided, and each practice suffers. For example: simultaneous texting and driving often results in bad texting and bad driving. In the martial case, attempting to combine static and dynamic would likely introduce distractions (the motion) into the static training, preventing the adaptation and incrementally-increasing internal focus that comes from static training.

Dynamic practices are a useful complement, but not a substitute, for static stance training, in my opinion. The benefits of the latter can be found with long-term standing, at least 30 minutes at a time (we did 45), over a long period. At first, it seems difficult, and, well, boring and pointless. But after a time (months to years, depending on the artist and frequency), the mind and body adapt, leading to unexpected benefits that could not be felt before.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 4, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang's post reminded me of a conversation I once had about stance training, specifically Santi shi, with a student of Wang Peisheng

He said his teacher stood about 1 hour, but no one has that much time these days so.....

- 30 minutes is better than 20.
- 20 minutes is better than 15
- 15 minutes is better than 10
- 10 minutes minutes is better than 5
- 5 minutes is better than nothing

but preferred his students stand at least 15 minute a day, but he understood that time was much tighter these days and if all they got was 5, it was better than nothing. Had another Xingyi sifu, in China, tell me less than 20 minutes you are wasting your time. And one of my XIngyi sifu's sifu was known to say that your not even a beginner unless you can stand 20 minutes per side per day.


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## mograph (Jan 4, 2016)

I agree that 15-20 minutes would be the minimum in order to make a breakthrough. Less than that is just endurance and leg training, IMO.
(There's nothing wrong with endurance and leg training, but it ain't no breakthrough.)

We shouldn't make the assumption that stance training is just like standing, only longer. It's quite different, but to see that, we have to stand in one spot long enough to make a cognitive/sensory breakthrough.

Edit: once you make the breakthrough, the benefits of standing are different. I found that standing for about ten minutes gave me a lot of energy. It certainly helped my squash game, to the point where I was described as a jack rabbit. But I had to make the breakthrough.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 4, 2016)

Absolutely, I had a teacher who would have us switch sides every 5 minutes until we go to 20 per side. Basically, IMO, you get not much from that. You have to maintain the stance for an extended period of time and then things get beyond endurance and start to get real interesting. But you can never forget, at least in the case of Xingyiquan, that you also have to be able to move, which is also very important.


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## mograph (Jan 4, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> But you can never forget, at least in the case of Xingyiquan, that you also have to be able to move, which is also very important.


Yes. In our practice, we had exercises that helped us make a gentle transition from standing to moving. If we lost the "feeling," we could stop to get it back, then continue. The exercises looked similar to walking in santi shi, changing sides, but with hands out to the side as if on the water's surface.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 4, 2016)

I think I did some of that when I went to the Rengang Wang seminar last year, I did not do it right, but it was quite interesting, actually I found his approach to training in general rather interesting as well.


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## 23rdwave (Jan 5, 2016)

One of the mistakes made in zz is that people try to take a zen approach and tune out. It is actually an awareness exercise, both mentally and physically. 

One should be asking oneself:
Are my shoulders down?
Are my elbows heavy?
Do I have an energetic feeling in my fingertips?
Are my joints all open?
Am I holding the bao in all those joints?
As I compress the imaginary ball I am holding does my body expand?
Re: Is the energy going in/out at the same time?

The body should be alive like an animal not semi-alive like a tree. There should be movement in the stillness. Try standing on the balls of your feet, ready to move. Try moving while holding the bao. Stay mentally focused. It's hard to do it this way for 10 minutes let alone 5. I have done the standing for an hour and it develops more bad habits than good ones. But I wouldn't know the difference unless I had spent some time treading those unfamiliar waters.


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## ChenAn (Jan 5, 2016)

ZZ nowadays is one of favorite way of Chenjiagou masters to makes money  Traditionally Chen didn't really have ZZ, but there were some  standing exercises  with limited motion that are pretty useful. Chen Zhaokui was teaching them. 

My personal opinion ZZ can help at beginners stage, for the rest it's pretty useless as it develops absolutely nothing that can be used in motion. I remember Chen Bing used to advocate to practice ZZ in motion. I think motion add more value to it. 

Oh yeas and I used to spend hours in ZZ for years. Fortunately I don't practice village method, so no more ZZ for me


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## mograph (Jan 5, 2016)

Sustained, calm, aware, curious practice of zhan zhuang can lead to great speed and unified application force by connecting components of the body and helping us become aware of subtelties in the function of our bodies. In my opinion, its best application is at the moments where motion changes: at the start of motion, and at changes of direction. However, it also allows the body to maintain a desired motion in the face of interrupting forces.

Standing requires patience, humility and an appreciation of subtlety: it is a game of millimetres. However, without those qualities, standing is indeed a waste of time.


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## ChenAn (Jan 5, 2016)

Chen Xin in his "Illustrated Explanation of Chen Family Taijiquan" has never mentioned ZZ. ZZ and SSG (silk reeling) are something what Chen Xiaowang generation brought in.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2016)

And yet Yang Chengfu said Wuji standing is not used enough in training.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> One of the mistakes made in zz is that people try to take a zen approach and tune out. It is actually an awareness exercise, both mentally and physically.
> 
> One should be asking oneself:
> Are my shoulders down?
> ...



Yes and no. You need to do that at the beginning but as you progress you do actually end up in a Zen like place, you no longer think of all that, but that is not tuning out, you are focused on what is now going on in your body, the connections and what happens when you move your foot, where does that energy/force go, then it moves.


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## mograph (Jan 5, 2016)

As we progress and make breakthroughs, the form and frequency of our questions, focus and inner dialogue change. We become more mindful and aware of our bodies, giving less time to random thoughts; instead, observing the miniscule events in our bodies as they occur. We still "check in," but _what_ we check and _how_ changes as we progress.


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## ChenAn (Jan 5, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> And yet Yang Chengfu said Wuji standing is not used enough in training.



Chenshi comes with set of setting meditation as part of neigong. The focus of neigong in achieving wuji state


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## Elbowgrease (Jan 5, 2016)

Lots of replies. I'll have to respond in pieces. Standing in wuji, mostly. And I do have to move. Standing is not moving and moving is not standing, but if I can't move correctly then I might as well not be moving at all, and if I can't stand correctly, I'm far less likely to move correctly. Duration changes daily. Usually not less than ten minutes, and usually not more than one hour at a time. But sometimes several hours in a day. I've started reading the Tao te ching for an hour a day while I'm standing if I just can't get in the right space. Lots of little things. Fixing a nasty foot injury by standing and feeling my feet. Fixing my foot but finding a lot more than just that. Not just standing there, posture is a verb. The entire body is fully engaged in the act of standing upright. In motion in every direction at once without moving anywhere.


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## Elbowgrease (Jan 5, 2016)

mograph said:


> Excellent. How do you maintain this sensitivity when you move?


          Exactly.


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## Elbowgrease (Jan 5, 2016)

Some breakthroughs happened really fast, honestly. Doesn't mean I've attained any sort of mastery of whatever thing, just finding it, knowing it's there and being unable to allow myself to go back to the old say voluntarily because of it. Last winter I started this and did it briefly, at least one hour every morning before I had coffee. Found the center of my foot the first day. When I started it this time, roughly the end of September, I was holding the iron rings. Ten per arm for a half hour then down to five per arm to finish the hour, listening to the clock for some amount of seconds and then changing posture. Get to the point of shaking, rings jingling like bells, then just let go and suddenly feel the breath hold all that weight for me. Then realized my foot was out of whack and needed to be dealt with first. So I stopped using the rings and stopped moving because I just really could NOT move without adding to my injury. Still can't really, but its getting closer. I can't move correctly but I can move very carefully and gently without hurting my foot.   Sorry, I'm a bit out of it today.


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## Elbowgrease (Jan 5, 2016)

Also, bitter. Eating bitter. Of the most unbelievable kind. On so many levels its just ridiculous. You just don't even want to know. With myself, its no problem. I have been dealing with all that for as long as a 30 year old can call a long time. The gym I train at might have to close. The other alternatives are even less positive. No one is really talking about it, but the tension is growing. Just one of the many bitter things. I guess maybe the challenge is to accept the bitter without becoming bitter.


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## ChenAn (Jan 5, 2016)

You can stand all anyway you want and can feel good about. Form consists of multiple postures that can be  tested by spending as much time as you want.

However, one thing is begging  a question if you can't move correctly what may you think that you can stand correctly?

Sensitivity ? It can only be achieved through the touch. Push hands is our friend here, not ZZ


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## mograph (Jan 5, 2016)

Elbowgrease, Tez3, 23rdwave, Bill: if you'd like to learn more, you can google Zhan Zhuang, Santi Shi, Yiquan, Dachengquan or Taikiken. Here are a few links for you:

Yiquan - Power of the Mind
Publications
Four Paradoxes of Standing Meditation


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## mograph (Jan 6, 2016)

While many sources call Zhan Zhuang "standing meditation," probably to distinguish it from simple standing in one spot, I try to _avoid_ looking at it as a standing version of other types of meditation (concentration, insight) that call for specific mental practices not addressed in Zhan Zhuang practice. I think that standing while meditating might distract from those practices.

Meditation is really mentally-focused, doing head stuff that isn't called for in Zhan Zhuang. ZZ is really _body_-focused, in my opinion, where we note changes happening in how we stand, how we sense our bodies and their components, and how we can help them interact together, more efficiently.

However, I think that _mindfulness_ can enhance Zhan Zhuang practice, allowing for an unbiased, non-judgmental examination and awareness of the changes happening (at the present moment) during standing practice. Mindfulness doesn't have to be practiced sitting down in a monastery: instead, it's an approach to how we sense things around us: unbiased, non-judgmental, non-evaluating, current. Mindfulness can be practiced while doing anything: eating, working, walking, cleaning. It's also called paying "bare attention" to what's at hand, without letting our mind wander to judge the thing, to compare it to things not at hand, to "multi-task" ... that sort of thing.

Mindfulness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article defines mindfulness as "a moment-to-moment awareness of one's experience without judgment." http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/07-08/ce-corner.aspx

Here's an article on concentration meditation vs. mindfulness:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/07-08/ce-corner.aspx


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## mograph (Jan 6, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> The body should be alive like an animal not semi-alive like a tree. There should be movement in the stillness. Try standing on the balls of your feet, ready to move. Try moving while holding the bao. Stay mentally focused. It's hard to do it this way for 10 minutes let alone 5. I have done the standing for an hour and it develops more bad habits than good ones. But I wouldn't know the difference unless I had spent some time treading those unfamiliar waters.


23rdwave, please feel free to contribute more -- I look forward to hearing about your experiences.


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## East Winds (Jan 6, 2016)

I agree with what Xue Sheng and mograph wrote about ZZ. Yang Cheng Fu did indeed advocate ZZ although he did not call it that. Read his description of the Preparatory Posture (illustrated by Xue Sheng in the OP) where he finishes by saying "......_*.Let it happen naturally, for you cannot make it happen. I preserve my stillness to await the opponent's movrment. However people typically are liable to neglect this posture, ignorant in particular that regradlessof whatever technique is being practised or applied, none of them can be disassociated from this one. I hope the reader or student will give it first priority and pay attention to it" *_To me, the whole essence of Taijiquan is here. Ignoring this is to ignore the meaning of Taijiquan as a martial art. 

Very best wishes

Alistair

The above quote comes from "Methods of Applying Taiji Boxing" by Yang Cheng Fu and Dong Yingjie, 1931.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2016)

mograph said:


> While many sources call Zhan Zhuang "standing meditation," probably to distinguish it from simple standing in one spot, I try to _avoid_ looking at it as a standing version of other types of meditation (concentration, insight) that call for specific mental practices not addressed in Zhan Zhuang practice. I think that standing while meditating might distract from those practices.
> 
> Meditation is really mentally-focused, doing head stuff that isn't called for in Zhan Zhuang. ZZ is really _body_-focused, in my opinion, where we note changes happening in how we stand, how we sense our bodies and their components, and how we can help them interact together, more efficiently.
> 
> ...



I agree, except on one minor point. Early in your ZZ training it becomes rather similar to meditation training. You do need to quiet the mind in order to get to the body focused bits. Past the; hold my arms like this, there are balloons between my fingers, I'm holding a ball, did I leave the coffee maker on, hey that's a siren.....etc. Then you find you can focus on the body...or at least that was my experience with just about any standing form I did.

I will admit early in my Xingyi training my first sifu talked about standing; Santi Shi and Zhan Zhuang, although we never stood in either all that long, and he was talking about Micro-cosmic circulation and macro-cosmic circulation,and although it all made very little sense to me based on all I had read over the years about XIngyi, I went through with it, go frustrated and eventually stopped. After a bit of a break I went back to what I had read and tried to apply that to what he had shown me, but I was at that point unsure about any of it. Went to my Yang sifu and the stuff he was saying about ZZ and Wuji made sense so I used that in Santi as well. It was not until after I trained with my 2nd xingyi sifu that my 1st sifu was way off the mark, what I read was right, and then the real Santi started.


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## Ruhaani (Jan 6, 2016)

I did zz for a year and it greatly helped my vascular and breathing system very quickly I tested it while playing sports although I did 10mins a day now looking back at it what you say makes complete sense I think also you have to let go and go into half wake half deep sleepy focused state to go deeper within

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## 23rdwave (Jan 6, 2016)

Ruhaani said:


> I did zz for a year and it greatly helped my vascular and breathing system very quickly I tested it while playing sports although I did 10mins a day now looking back at it what you say makes complete sense I think also you have to let go and go into half wake half deep sleepy focused state to go deeper within
> 
> Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk



When I first started zz I would practice for a few minutes at night right before getting into bed. I thought that half wake half deep sleepy focused state would help my zz. But I realized the fallacy in this later because in zz we want to be in an awakened, alive state. It is a soft focus rather than a half wake half deep sleepy focused state. 

Capture the feeling and hold onto it.


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## Ruhaani (Jan 6, 2016)

Yh thats what I meant I practised alot at night and sunrise since I live in rural country side was perfect

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## Ruhaani (Jan 6, 2016)

I think I stopped when my body started shaking once I got kinda freaked out so stopped lol

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## 23rdwave (Jan 6, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> You can stand all anyway you want and can feel good about. Form consists of multiple postures that can be  tested by spending as much time as you want.
> 
> However, one thing is begging  a question if you can't move correctly what may you think that you can stand correctly?
> 
> ...



Without zz one cannot generate power without force. Push hands without a foundation in zz is just that, a sensitivity exercise without power. It should be both.

This is why all push hands competitions turn into shoving matches. No zz.


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## 23rdwave (Jan 6, 2016)

Ruhaani said:


> I think I stopped when my body started shaking once I got kinda freaked out so stopped lol
> 
> Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk



That happened to me the first time I did qi gong. If it did not occur I may have given up.


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## ChenAn (Jan 6, 2016)

Chen family was doing just find before Chen Xiaowang introduced ZZ. 

I guess modern taiji marketing really works. People  are reciting something they don't really  understand. ZZ has nothing  to do with generating power. Before practitioner even can think about power he has to learn a proper body method - shenfa and stepping method -bufa.

Given that practitioner understand basic body method there comes jibengong and etc.

It's just like a Lego pieces that has to come together before you can build anything else

As mentioned before ZZ may make feel people comfortable and happy. However, ultimate test of gongfu come under stress of actually using it. We can all talk about great benefits and theory. But unless any of us able to manifest it, it really means nothing.

Standing endlessly in  ZZ see will not provide practitioner with much benefit  or practical usage. Yes one will gets stronger legs, but so what? Weight lifters have strong legs as well does it make them great taiji practitioners? No!

Taiji is alive art not static, so maintaining body composure in the motion is very important. There is a taolu practice for that..



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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> Chen family was doing just find before Chen Xiaowang introduced ZZ.
> 
> I guess modern taiji marketing really works. People  are reciting something they don't really  understand. ZZ has nothing  to do with generating power. Before practitioner even can think about power he has to learn a proper body method - shenfa and stepping method -bufa.
> 
> ...



You find ZZ as a integral part of Dai Xinyi (that would be pre-1700) and after that it is found in Xingyiquan. There is a variation form Dai Xinyi called Ape standing that did not transfer into things like Hebei Xingyiquan. Dai family could not understand how you could make Xingyi work without Ape standing.

ZZ does not generate power, but it helps you understand how to get things form the root to where you want it to go.

Bottom Line, Zhan Zhaung has been around a lot longer than Chen Xiaowang.


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## ChenAn (Jan 6, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> You find ZZ as a integral part of Dai Xinyi (that would be pre-1700) and after that it is found in Xingyiquan. There is a variation form Dai Xinyi called Ape standing that did not transfer into things like Hebei Xingyiquan. Dai family could not understand how you could make Xingyi work without Ape standing.
> 
> ZZ does not generate power, but it helps you understand how to get things form the root to where you want it to go.
> 
> Bottom Line, Zhan Zhaung has been around a lot longer than Chen Xiaowang.




Yes it has, but Chen never used it before. There are other similar semi static drills but not ZZ. Right now ZZ is great deal of taiji marketing. Which takes it out of context or original purpose . Take a private lesson with CXW and enjoy standing in ZZ for $400 in hour..Just saying..


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2016)

Think I may have read that somewhere before

But it didn't cost me $400 and I did not first learn ZZ in taiji, learned it in Xingyi. However my Yang sifu (student of Tung Ying Chieh) does teach it on occasion and he has no connection to the Chen's other than through Yang Luchan. But he does not put great emphasis on it. His feeling is that all you truly need is in the form.

However things were added to taiji and changed by the Yang family. Also coming from Tung Ying Chieh you get some Wǔshì (Wu/Hao) taiji as well.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2016)

Elbowgrease said:


> So I've been standing in training for the last few months. Just standing. Occasionally moving just a little bit, but mostly just standing there. Staring at the white wall. Now it feels completely different. I'm starting to feel my bones. Starting to feel the space between them. Feeling my breath move them. Feeling my feet. My toes. My fourth toe. I started to move again on new years eve. Still not done standing there, but moving again now. It's been interesting. Anyone have any thoughts on that?


 It's harder to stand still than it is to move.  It sounds like you are starting to gain awareness of your body which is normal for internal martial arts.  Standing still  or moving slowly forces you to focus on the smaller things about your body that matter.  If you think this is exciting wait until it kicks in when you start sparring against someone. 

Just recently I was sparring against a Sanda person and my limited Tai Chi skills came into use (I have on video).  I didn't do anything incredible, but you can tell by my opponent's movements that something internal was at work. This is only the second time that this has happened and each time is was something that was totally unplanned  for me.


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## Ruhaani (Jan 6, 2016)

I personally think zz does generate power because your connecting all the wiring back to the power source you have to have an understanding on subtlety of the human mechanics and besides I think true tai chi is not within the forms but something more spiritual.

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## Elbowgrease (Jan 6, 2016)

Honestly not concerned about power generation at the moment. That just is what it is. And my sifu never sold me anything, he gave me things. He talked about what happened when he told sifu Woo he was thinking about teaching. Sifu Woo made him stand there until he told him to move again, and then only do the very first movement of the form until he could do it right. Months of each of them, 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. A little extreme, but teaching tai chi and gongfu is serious. It can't be taken lightly. I wanted to find out what that was all about. Now I have an ever so slightly better understanding of what that's all about. And I'm only just beginning. And push hands is puah hands and not the real thing. I can uproot a push hands champ without even trying and I don't know push hands, but he can't beat me in a fight because he doesn't know anything about fighting. So I'm probably not going to be playing push hands with anyone and calling it tai chi chuan.


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## Elbowgrease (Jan 6, 2016)

And thanks to all for the many great replies.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2016)

Elbowgrease said:


> Honestly not concerned about power generation at the moment. That just is what it is. And my sifu never sold me anything, he gave me things. He talked about what happened when he told sifu Woo he was thinking about teaching. Sifu Woo made him stand there until he told him to move again, and then only do the very first movement of the form until he could do it right. Months of each of them, 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. A little extreme, but teaching tai chi and gongfu is serious. It can't be taken lightly. I wanted to find out what that was all about. Now I have an ever so slightly better understanding of what that's all about. And I'm only just beginning. And push hands is puah hands and not the real thing. I can uproot a push hands champ without even trying and I don't know push hands, but he can't beat me in a fight because he doesn't know anything about fighting. So I'm probably not going to be playing push hands with anyone and calling it tai chi chuan.



push hands is not fighting, it is not even sparing, its a training tool


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2016)

Elbowgrease said:


> And push hands is puah hands and not the real thing. I can uproot a push hands champ without even trying and I don't know push hands, but he can't beat me in a fight because he doesn't know anything about fighting. So I'm probably not going to be playing push hands with anyone and calling it tai chi chuan.


My opinion is that you should still do the push hands.  Push hands teaches you how to sense the slightest movement through fighting and to recognize the intent of that movement.   Push hands trains you to sense changes and shifts in the body's balance.  Here's a short video of what  I learned in Push Hands being applied to free sparring.  I'm still a long way off for being able to actually fight using tai chi but this video represents the second time where the skills I learned from push hands was utilized.
It's not going to look like Tai Chi push hands so I'll explain what is going on.  

Description of the video:
My opponent charges into me and is unable to move me by punching.  I sense that he's off balance so I push, when I feel that he's off balance from the push, I pull. The key parts of the video is to look at how his body reacts to the push and to the pull in comparison to how much my body actually moves.  You can also tell how much energy he's fighting against by the way he spins off and the sound of his foot landing.  When you look at me, it looks like I'm doing very little.  

Like I said it doesn't look like much but there's a lot of sensing and timing going on, all of which I developed from Tai Chi and as far as Tai Chi goes, I'm barely a beginner in the world of Tai Chi.


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## mograph (Jan 6, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> My opinion is that you should still do the push hands.


Yes. Standing can _complement_ push hands, and does not replace it.


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## Elbowgrease (Jan 6, 2016)

I have mixed feelings about push hands and very little knowledge or experience with it. It was never taught where I train and there was a reason for that, although we do have some paired exercises similar to it. I don't know it and have no way to learn it. So I can't really pursue it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2016)

Elbowgrease said:


> I have mixed feelings about push hands and very little knowledge or experience with it. It was never taught where I train and there was a reason for that, although we do have some paired exercises similar to it. I don't know it and have no way to learn it. So I can't really pursue it.


Then that's a different story and it's not really by your decision not to do it.  Push hands requires training because there's more to it than just pushing someone.  If there is no one there that can guide you with push hands then it will be very difficult to learn it on your own.


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## Elbowgrease (Jan 7, 2016)

And I'm really not interested in learning it. There is someone around who knows it, and is trying to teach it, but he's not much of a teacher.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 7, 2016)

Elbowgrease said:


> And I'm really not interested in learning it. There is someone around who knows it, and is trying to teach it, but he's not much of a teacher.


That's a good reason for not learning it.


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## 23rdwave (Jan 7, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> Chen family was doing just find before Chen Xiaowang introduced ZZ.
> 
> I guess modern taiji marketing really works. People  are reciting something they don't really  understand. ZZ has nothing  to do with generating power. Before practitioner even can think about power he has to learn a proper body method - shenfa and stepping method -bufa.
> 
> ...



I learned Yiquan zhan zhuang first from Henry Look who learned from Han Xing Yuan who learned from Wang Xiang Zhai. I was then taught the Han Shi Yi Quan method by Han Jing Chen, son of Han Xing Qiao. Han Xing Qiao and Han Xing Yuan were brothers and two of the Four Diamonds who accepted challenge matches on behalf of Wang Xiang Zhai, the founder of Yiquan.

I practice Han Shi Yi Quan and Guang Ping Yang Taiji not Chen Taiji.

Without zhan zhuang there is no proper body method.

Read my earlier posts about movement in stillness and not wasting one's time standing for long periods. I do zhan zhuang for just a few minutes at a time.


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## ChenAn (Jan 7, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> I learned Yiquan zhan zhuang first from Henry Look who learned from Han Xing Yuan who learned from Wang Xiang Zhai. I was then taught the Han Shi Yi Quan method by Han Jing Chen, son of Han Xing Qiao. Han Xing Qiao and Han Xing Yuan were brothers and two of the Four Diamonds who accepted challenge matches on behalf of Wang Xiang Zhai, the founder of Yiquan.
> 
> I practice Han Shi Yi Quan and Guang Ping Yang Taiji not Chen Taiji.
> 
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong Yiquan doesn't have any form sets aka taolu,  just drills and "standing poles" aka ZZ? Well Chen style has set of postures that included in taolu. Each of them can represent similar concept as ZZ if enough time spent. But ZZ by itself which adopted by Chen taiji doesn't carry the value than one in Yiquan. Chen taolu if done 30-40 minutes designed to serve the same purpose  as ZZ in Yiquan. 

Here is what adopted ZZ looks like in Chen


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2016)

Here is what adopted ZZ looks like in Chang Taiji.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 7, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong Yiquan doesn't have any form sets aka taolu,  just drills and "standing poles" aka ZZ? Well Chen style has set of postures that included in taolu. Each of them can represent similar concept as ZZ if enough time spent. But ZZ by itself which adopted by Chen taiji doesn't carry the value than one in Yiquan. Chen taolu if done 30-40 minutes designed to serve the same purpose  as ZZ in Yiquan.
> 
> Here is what adopted ZZ looks like in Chen



Yiquan has push hands and if you look up Wang Rengang you will see a kind of taolu. You will also find sanda in Yiquan as well, especially in Beijing from Yao


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## 23rdwave (Jan 7, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong Yiquan doesn't have any form sets aka taolu,  just drills and "standing poles" aka ZZ? Well Chen style has set of postures that included in taolu. Each of them can represent similar concept as ZZ if enough time spent. But ZZ by itself which adopted by Chen taiji doesn't carry the value than one in Yiquan. Chen taolu if done 30-40 minutes designed to serve the same purpose  as ZZ in Yiquan.
> 
> Here is what adopted ZZ looks like in Chen




In Han Shi Yi Quan we do our version of Xingyi's five elements fists and San Ti. There are eight postures in the zhan zhuang and sixty-four in Guang Ping Yang Taiji. All of the taiji postures contain several movements within them. There are over 100 postures of zz to explore.


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## mograph (Jan 8, 2016)

23rdwave, could you recommend any resources for standing practice?


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## 23rdwave (Jan 8, 2016)

For books: "The Tao of Yiquan" and "Masters of Perception" by Jan Diepersloot

For videos: 
韩星垣 - Хань Синъюань Ицюань


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## mograph (Jan 8, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> For books: "The Tao of Yiquan" and "Masters of Perception" by Jan Diepersloot


Thanks. What do you think of Lam Kam Chuen's books, _Qigong: Way of Power,_ and _Qigong: Way of Energy_?


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## 23rdwave (Jan 9, 2016)

Books are hard to assess if I haven't trained in the particular method written about. I have read Chuen's books and like with all of them I recommend taking a concept or two that you think you understand and working on it until a deeper understanding is developed and building on that. Even Jan's books have their downside. Mainly that Jan, after 40+ years of training, is still a neophyte. If he is giving his interpretation of something rather than quoting his teachers it is best to gloss over it.


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## greytowhite (Jan 17, 2016)

Hmmm... As I learned Chen taiji zhuang the standing was one of eight postures from the laojia yilu that my teacher thought was important for jin development. He would have me hold one posture, correct it, then "load" my structure in various directions and using various jins. Once he was satisfied he would have me transition into the next posture, correct the transition, and then tell me what I was supposed to be feeling during the transition. The transition portion was more enlightening than the stillness.

Now I'm learning the xingyibagua through Kenny Gong's line and I would honestly say that this is a MORE internal practice than the Chen as I was taught. There were some very vague portions of the taiji I disliked, particularly instruction on using middle dantian. The teaching methodology leads me to believe that in Chen the middle dantian is developed through push hands whereas my xingyibagua teacher gives explicit instructions for ribs.


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