# Yee Chuan Tao



## Ninway J

http://www.unitedmartialartists.org/vendrell/

I was wondering if anyone here practices or has even heard of Yee Chuan Tao Kung Fu?  Is it the same as Yee Chuan Kung Fu?  The above site is the only Kung Fu school in my area, and I was wondering if it's a legit art to take up.


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## arnisador

> Sifu Mike Vendrell is the 88th generation master of Yee Chuan Tao Kung Fu, an internal/external system developed by Taoist monks, which gets its power from chi. He is also one of the few classically trained practioners of Chi Gung, a highly effective Chinese healing art. Sifu Rob Moses is a certified Northern Shaolin/Tai Chi Praying Mantis instructor, and founded Tai Shan Mantis, a complete martial fitness system based on neo-classical Kung Fu.





> Sifu Michael Vendrell is the last remaining master of Yee Chuan Tao in the world. He was taught the art by Grandmaster Leong beginning at the age of three. By the Sifu Michael Vendrellage of 16 Michael had passed a very rigorous 48-hour trial to become the next and only master of the system in the world. For the next three years he fought in underground no-fules cage-fighting, never losing a match.





> Yee Chuan Tao Kung Fu is an internal/external system which uses chi (sometimes spelled qi or chee) as its primary source of power. Originated by Taoist monks, the system predates the Shaolin Temple by 3,000 years.



I'm guessing this is meant as parody--no one would actually write such nonsense as though they believed it, would they?

If anyone thinks he's the 88th generation grandmaster--figure at least 20 years/generation, on average--I'd like to make them a very speciall offer on the City of Beijing, China, which I happen to own but am looking to unload.

Mind you, he may be teaching good kung fu--but the backstory is pure BS.


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## 7starmantis

> (Remember, too, that Yee Chuan only "hurts" when someone comes at you; there are only defensive moves: it is not violent).



 

I think it sounds as if he likes to talk about himself a bit. I couldn't comment about his skill, but it sounds a little hoky to me.

7sm


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## Ninway J

Yeah, I did a search on the web, and he's the only person that came up in the search results as teaching "Yee Chuan Tao", but there are quite a few that teach "Yee Chuan", so I am a little suspect because they both seem different, and Yee Chuan seems to be the more legit one.


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## arnisador

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9589


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## aNadia

I practice and have heard of Yee Chuan Tao. I go to the kung fu school you're talking about, vendrell martial arts, or "the welcome mat". It's definitely a legit art, it isn't the same as yee chuan.
Sifu Mike is amazing, he's qualified to teach 23 different martial arts, and I don't want to waste my time trying to convince you guys to change your minds about him but it set me back to see how some of you commented him on his background being BS and "hoky". Like I said, he's amazing, he's extremely talented, a great teacher, very intellegent and experienced. He's so kind and humorous too I love him to death. Sifu Rob as well is so amazing, he makes class very fun, he's incredibly talented and intelligent, and he usually teaches the kicking class. I've been going for 6 months and I'm excited for every class still yet I couldn't be happier i joined, it's such a unique school with the most absolutely unbelievably mind blowing teachers !!!


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## 7starmantis

My only problem is that a reasonable time to go from beginner to instructor in a legit art would be what, 4 years at the lowest? Lets say 3 years just for argueing.....23 arts?....that would be 69 years of training, and thats consecutive. If at 4 years he would have to have spent 92 consecutive years training. Thats a long time.

7sm


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## RHD

aNadia said:
			
		

> I practice and have heard of Yee Chuan Tao. I go to the kung fu school you're talking about, vendrell martial arts, or "the welcome mat". It's definitely a legit art, it isn't the same as yee chuan.
> Sifu Mike is amazing, he's qualified to teach 23 different martial arts, and I don't want to waste my time trying to convince you guys to change your minds about him but it set me back to see how some of you commented him on his background being BS and "hoky". Like I said, he's amazing, he's extremely talented, a great teacher, very intellegent and experienced. He's so kind and humorous too I love him to death. Sifu Rob as well is so amazing, he makes class very fun, he's incredibly talented and intelligent, and he usually teaches the kicking class. I've been going for 6 months and I'm excited for every class still yet I couldn't be happier i joined, it's such a unique school with the most absolutely unbelievably mind blowing teachers !!!



Well...
Nice of you to come to your teacher's defense.
I'm inclined to say that the guy is not legit.  My reasoning for this is:

1)I've been in Chinese martial arts since 1990 and I've researched them extensively, but never heard of yee chuan tao.  Is that name in Mandarin or Cantonese?  If I knew, maybe one of my Chinese speaking friends could translate it for me.  A system's name can speak volumes as to its origins.
2) The video clips on the website show what could be any number of system's, slightly tweaked, altered, or jumbled together.
3)The guy claims to be a master, but there's no one else teaching his system...in other words no one else to back up his claims.  He could claim to teach almost anything as long as there's no one else alive to verify it...the general public would have no clue.
4)In the video clips there's not a good visible root in his stances and footwork, a clear marker for skill and understanding in any Chinese system.

I can't comment on the Mantis guy much.  His stuff is slower than most Mantis I've seen, and Tai Mantis is rarer than say...Seven Star.  Maybe someone else (7*?) could comment on this.

aNadia, I'd like to ask you what your background in Chinese martial arts is.
Is this your first experience with them? And please, don't be angry from my post, I'm only relating what I can from my experience.
Mike


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## 7starmantis

RHD said:
			
		

> I can't comment on the Mantis guy much. His stuff is slower than most Mantis I've seen, and Tai Mantis is rarer than say...Seven Star. Maybe someone else (7*?) could comment on this.


I want to do this objectivly and not offend.

There were a few things that struck me as odd. 
"[font=Arial, Helvetica, Univers, 'Zurich BT', sans-serif]Students learn concepts, and train their ballistic reflexes in order to create an art suited to their individual needs." [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, Univers, 'Zurich BT', sans-serif]As far as kung fu goes, that is very strongly against the norm for CMA systems.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, Univers, 'Zurich BT', sans-serif]I watched the mantis video. The only thing I can say about it is that he lacks a rooted stance in any of the forms. There seems to be a lack of application in the techniques. I see alot of flashy pretty stuff, but its high unbalanced stances. He is very smooth but his kicks and punches are not extended as to give more fluidity. None of the kicks had application behind them. I don't think he has no skill, it just doesn't look to be applicable as far as fighting. Very pretty, and nicly performed, but I see no application in it.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, Univers, 'Zurich BT', sans-serif]Let me say, I'm no expert. I have studied CMA since I was a kid, and mantis for the last few years. I'm in the lineage of masters such as Raymond Fogg, Henry Chung, Lee Kam Wing, Chan Poi, Chu Leun. Having sat under most of them for seminars and such, I can see a huge difference in thier forms from what I saw on the video. Again though, my expertise is in 7* mainly and I'm not extremely familure with Tai Mantis, especially his system he created.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, Univers, 'Zurich BT', sans-serif]7sm[/font]


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## Keaka o Kanaka

I too am a fellow student of Sifu Mike Vendrell.  I can't really expect you all to believe me, but I will still do what I can to defend Sifu Mike's background.  He truly is an awesome teacher.  The 23 martial arts that he has learned and is qualified to teach he learned in a short period of time.  Sifu Mike mastered the system of Yee Chuan Tao at the age of 17 because he started at the age of 3.  His master played games with him and he said he didn't even know he was learning kung fu until he was about 11 or 12.  After he mastered Yee Chuan Tao he wanted to learn more.  He learned and became a 3rd degree blackbelt in Taekwondo in a year and a half.  I asked him how he did this and he simply replied, "A lot of these martial arts are like kung fu, just done badly."  I was very skeptical at first.  Sifu mike isn't slim, but he is fast.  He makes forms up in his head.  He worked as a stunt man for so long.  We've seen him in shots of several movies.  In a matter of fact David Carradine called the studio a month ago asking if sifu mike would like to help choreograph in Kill Bill 2.  He is leaving island in May to go to canada and do a movie called "Hitman." 

Sifu does several kung fu animal forms.  When he does forms he doesn't do it from memory.  He fights as if he were really in one.  He imagines several people attacking him and he fights them all until he wishes to stop.  His forms are different because they are his own.  The techniques are the same though.  Sifu Rob as well.  Sifu Rob stays light on his feet when doing forms because he pretends that he's actually fighting.  His kicks are dynamic.  So quick and so effortless.  He is very amazing.  Type Mike Vendrell in any search engine and his name pops up everywhere.  I feel very lucky to train with him.  

One of our fellow students won 3 gold medals at the Taiji Legacy 2003 competition for her fan form.  Sifu mike taught her everything she knows about kung fu.  She's training to be a sifu as well and should be by the end of next year.  

As I've already said...I can't really convince any of you by writing this.  The only way you can see how "legit" he is, is by going to our school and trying it out yourself.

Thanks...

Kala


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## aNadia

And to the slow forms of Sifu Rob's mantis form, what he's doing in the videos are clips of some free-styling with "dancing hands". He's making different spirals with his hands that he uses in his philosophy of teaching, 'dancing hands' was originally founded by Sifu Mike. A lot of Sifu Rob's teachings has come from learning or experiencing what Sifu mike has taught him.

Sifu Rob used to be hard core on shaolin mantis and founded his own style of Taishan mantis and 9 psalms...

This is the first time I've done kung fu, I've done kyudo before this.

Also, Sifu Rob has a much rooted stance, if you were to see him in real life, he's beautifully centered.

Of course, I can only give you so much information about him, you could write him an email, I'm pretty sure he is the one who looks at it. 
information@vendrellmartialarts.com
he's really laid back, won't take offense to any questions you might have, so you haven't much to lose if youre interested in knowing about his history and Yee Chuan Tao. There is also a phone number, but that might seem a bit to much since long distance cost money, but you could do that too.


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## RHD

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> The 23 martial arts that he has learned and is qualified to teach he learned in a short period of time.  Sifu Mike mastered the system of Yee Chuan Tao at the age of 17 because he started at the age of 3.  His master played games with him and he said he didn't even know he was learning kung fu until he was about 11 or 12.  After he mastered Yee Chuan Tao he wanted to learn more.  He learned and became a 3rd degree blackbelt in Taekwondo in a year and a half.



Alarm bells...
How can a child master a fighting system?  How can anyone learn 23 martial arts?  This is the kind of thing that makes a person have to wonder...Perhaps the definition of learning and mastering is different from my own.
Mike


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## 7starmantis

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> One of our fellow students won 3 gold medals at the Taiji Legacy 2003 competition for her fan form. Sifu mike taught her everything she knows about kung fu. She's training to be a sifu as well and should be by the end of next year.
> 
> As I've already said...I can't really convince any of you by writing this. The only way you can see how "legit" he is, is by going to our school and trying it out yourself.
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> Kala


This is good, I will be at the 2004 taiji legacy competition for san shou, I would love to look you guys up and see for myself. (that sounded rude, but I mean it seriously). My school competes in the Taiji Legacy Tournement every year, I'm trying to remember who your talking about. I'll be there this year, I'll try and look for you guys.

7sm


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## Ninway J

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> One of our fellow students won 3 gold medals at the Taiji Legacy 2003 competition for her fan form.  Sifu mike taught her everything she knows about kung fu.  She's training to be a sifu as well and should be by the end of next year.



Greetings Keaka o Kanaka,

Is that Chee, by any chance?

Also, would you, or anyone, be able to name all 23 arts that Sifu Mike has mastered?  I'm not trying to attack you in any way.  I'm just curious and I would like to know, and also give you an opportunity to name those arts.

Thanks.


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## RHD

Ninway J said:
			
		

> Greetings Keaka o Kanaka,
> 
> Is that Chee, by any chance?
> 
> Also, would you, or anyone, be able to name all 23 arts that Sifu Mike has mastered?  I'm not trying to attack you in any way.  I'm just curious and I would like to know, and also give you an opportunity to name those arts.
> 
> Thanks.


No reply yet:
Must be looking up an encyclopeida of martial arts to figure out which one's to list...  :idunno: 
Mike


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## InvisibleFist

Did anybody check out the "hoop" form?  What the heck is that thing?  It looks like the Klingon sword from "Star Trek".


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## Keaka o Kanaka

I apologize for the not replying sooner.  I don't check the forums everyday.  I will ask sifu mike to give me the full list of all the martial arts he is qualified to teach.  I also asked him about Yiquan.  Yiquan means the intellectual martial art.  It has been confused with Sifu Mike's martial art for years.  Yee Chuan Tao means the way of one fist.  It was a martial art developed supposedly by a one armed man.  Yee Chuan Tao is supposed to be older than any other chinese martial art (even tai chi chuan).  It wasn't originally developed as a defensive/offensive martial art, but as a healing art.  Yee Chuan Tao is also a family martial art, so it has only recently been taught outside.  Sifu Mike's sifu's son died and took in Sifu Mike as a student.  Yiquan on the other hand was only recently developed a few decades ago, and is an open to anybody system.

As for the Taiji Legacy Competition.  The top students from our school will be there.  Chee was the one who had won the 3 gold medals from the competition last year with her fan form and her gim form.  
I hope to see you there 7sm.  I think it would be an excellent learning experience.  I plan on competing with a broadsword form that sifu mike is helping me create.  

I will get the list from sifu mike on the martial arts that he is certified to teach as soon as I can.  But for those who still don't believe I quote sifu mike, "If I'm a con or a liar, then I have been for the last 30 years."  The reason why his martial application looks so different is because it is his own.  Nobody in the world fights like him.  Thanks again 

Kala


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## Keaka o Kanaka

As for the Kung fu la hoop...That's sifu rob's design.  He does kung fu with everything.  He has made a lot "wackier" weapons than the kung fu la hoop.

Kala


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## 7starmantis

So this school isn't one based on fighting or self defense but rather on the performance of forms? 

7sm


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## RHD

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> Yee Chuan Tao is supposed to be older than any other chinese martial art (even tai chi chuan)...Yee Chuan Tao is also a family martial art, so it has only recently been taught outside.
> As for the Taiji Legacy Competition...I plan on competing with a broadsword form that sifu mike is helping me create....
> I will get the list from sifu mike on the martial arts that he is certified to teach as soon as I can.  But for those who still don't believe I quote sifu mike, "If I'm a con or a liar, then I have been for the last 30 years."
> Kala



Older than any other CMA=  unable to prove, probably B.S.

Family art, only recently taught "outside" the family=  unable to prove, probably B.S.

Creating a broadsword set= Wushu? What about Yee Chuan Tao's broadsword sets?  Or Preying Mantis? Aren't these any good?

Yes, lets see a list of the 23 martial arts that your sifu is _certified_ to teach.  

Sorry Keaka o Kanaka, I know you really like your sifu, but the credentials smell extremely fishy.  Knowing David Carradine doesn't make someone a kung fu master. Realistically, its very difficult to learn and master even one system.  Mastering and being certified to teach in 23 is a ridiculous claim.  Maybe learning a form or two from 23 systems is possible, but not mastering them.  Perhaps you should take some time out and visit some other kung fu schools and take a look at what they're doing to give yourself some reference. 
Mike


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## Keaka o Kanaka

7starmantis said:
			
		

> So this school isn't one based on fighting or self defense but rather on the performance of forms?
> 
> 7sm


No this school is definetely based on self defense.  We learn all types of animal kung fu techniques and ballistic drills.  Sifu mike doesn't like wushu too much.  He has nothing against it I guess, but he says that kung fu already naturally looks beautiful and that wushu has kind of lost all it's applicable techniques.  We do still work on our performance for competitions.  I think performance is 3/5 of your score.  But nonetheless, all the techniques we do in our forms are fully applicable for combat.  Thanks

Kala


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## Keaka o Kanaka

RHD said:
			
		

> Older than any other CMA= unable to prove, probably B.S.
> 
> Family art, only recently taught "outside" the family= unable to prove, probably B.S.
> 
> Creating a broadsword set= Wushu? What about Yee Chuan Tao's broadsword sets? Or Preying Mantis? Aren't these any good?
> 
> Yes, lets see a list of the 23 martial arts that your sifu is _certified_ to teach.
> 
> Sorry Keaka o Kanaka, I know you really like your sifu, but the credentials smell extremely fishy. Knowing David Carradine doesn't make someone a kung fu master. Realistically, its very difficult to learn and master even one system. Mastering and being certified to teach in 23 is a ridiculous claim. Maybe learning a form or two from 23 systems is possible, but not mastering them. Perhaps you should take some time out and visit some other kung fu schools and take a look at what they're doing to give yourself some reference.
> Mike


You are correct about the proof part.  I have no way of proving to you that Yee Chuan Tao is the oldest form of CMA.  Nor do I have any proof that this is the first generation Yee Chuan Tao has ever been taught out of the family.  All I have are what sifu mike has shown me and what he has told me.  I don't expect you too believe or trust him, and neither does he.  He says if people choose not to believe in something they'll make up any excuse not to.  As for me, I've seen him do amazing things and I believe him fully.  

No.  My broadsword form will not be wushu.  It's just a single combat form.  Sifu mike is showing me all types of techniques I can compile into one form.  I practice with my other students attacking me from different angles and then I memorize how I had defended myself.  I then practice the form by myself and then polish it up.  That's how we make forms.  Eventually I hope to be able to develope enough imagination to make forms up in my head, but I'm still just a beginner.  

Sifu Mike didn't just "know" David Carradine, he trained him.  He also trained several other high up there Martial Artists like Brandon Lee and Gene LeBelle.  I don't have any interest in leaving this school.  Sifu Mike can teach me everything I want to learn.  It is far from unbelievable for someone to master a martial art quickly after already mastering one previously.  You are able to learn quicker because you are already experienced with another form of fighting.  You are also already conditioned and stretched which is probably the most time consuming part of learning a martial art.  Sifu Mike achieved the title of si gung at the age of 17, becoming grandmaster.  He is now 50 to date.  I have seen other kung fu schools.  In my area, Sifu Mike teaches the best from what I've seen.  

As far as the martial arts list, I'm supposed to get it tomorrow when there is class.  The martial arts I know he knows are:

Yee Chuan Tao
Taekwondo
Mantis
Judo
Kendo
5 animal forms
Jiu Jitsu
Chin Na
Tai Chi

These are the ones he has shown me and has taught to some of his other students.  As I've already said.  I truly can't expect any of you to believe me unless you were to meet Sifu Mike for yourselves.  He is so knowledgeable about so many things that it's amazing to me, and that I enjoy training under him very much.  Thanks again

Kala


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## 7starmantis

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> Sifu Mike didn't just "know" David Carradine, he trained him. He also trained several other high up there Martial Artists like Brandon Lee and Gene LeBelle. I don't have any interest in leaving this school. Sifu Mike can teach me everything I want to learn. It is far from unbelievable for someone to master a martial art quickly after already mastering one previously. You are able to learn quicker because you are already experienced with another form of fighting. You are also already conditioned and stretched which is probably the most time consuming part of learning a martial art. Sifu Mike achieved the title of si gung at the age of 17, becoming grandmaster. He is now 50 to date. I have seen other kung fu schools. In my area, Sifu Mike teaches the best from what I've seen.


I've been trying to be as objective as possible but here are a few things I don't quite understand. David Carradine doesn't impress me in the least so neither would someone who trained him. Simply stating that fact doesn't do much for his skill credibility. The training of "hollywood Maist" also doesn't impress me much, so these types of claims don't really hold much weight.

The term sigung is not so much a title as simply a word that is used for teacher's teacher. My instructors instructor would be my sigung. That in and of itself doesn't mean you have "mastered" anything in today's society. It certainly isn't the deffinition of grandmaster. If he is 50 years old and we go back to my earlier post about spending 3 years in each art he mastered, he is lacking 19 years of study. If he spent less than 3 years in a system, I don't find it believeable to say he mastered it. Actually I don't think 3 years in a system should even allow you to teach it, but thats just me.



			
				Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> The martial arts I know he knows are:
> 
> Yee Chuan Tao
> Taekwondo
> Mantis
> Judo
> Kendo
> 5 animal forms
> Jiu Jitsu
> Chin Na
> Tai Chi
> 
> These are the ones he has shown me and has taught to some of his other students. As I've already said. I truly can't expect any of you to believe me unless you were to meet Sifu Mike for yourselves. He is so knowledgeable about so many things that it's amazing to me, and that I enjoy training under him very much. Thanks again


I'm glad you are comfortable training under him, and you enjoy your training. That is what its all about for some.
I must address a few things here however. In your list you listed Mantis. Thats a pretty broad statement as there are many styles of mantis. What style has he mastered, or is it the mantis system in its entirety? Not speaking for any other system of mantis, but 7 star is quite a large system to master, and if he did master it he should be accepted by a legitament instructor, right? Who did he train under for mantis? Also you listed 5 Animals Forms. Is this mean he knows some 5 animal forms? If so I wouldn't qualify that as mastering a system. Speaking of Chin Na, I know the 23 mantis chin-na techniques, does that mean I can list myself as having mastered the system of chin-na? Same goes with Tai Chi, what style? Who did he study under? What forms does he know?

Please don't take this as an attack, it is not. I'm simply saying that if your trying to convince someone of your teachers ligitimacy, these general statements will not do it. 

Also I asked if your system was focused on fighting and self defense or on forms and performance. Neither is wrong, I'm just curious.

7sm


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## aNadia

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I've been trying to be as objective as possible but here are a few things I don't quite understand. David Carradine doesn't impress me in the least so neither would someone who trained him. Simply stating that fact doesn't do much for his skill credibility. The training of "hollywood Maist" also doesn't impress me much, so these types of claims don't really hold much weight.
> 
> The term sigung is not so much a title as simply a word that is used for teacher's teacher. My instructors instructor would be my sigung. That in and of itself doesn't mean you have "mastered" anything in today's society. It certainly isn't the deffinition of grandmaster. If he is 50 years old and we go back to my earlier post about spending 3 years in each art he mastered, he is lacking 19 years of study. If he spent less than 3 years in a system, I don't find it believeable to say he mastered it. Actually I don't think 3 years in a system should even allow you to teach it, but thats just me.
> 
> 
> I'm glad you are comfortable training under him, and you enjoy your training. That is what its all about for some.
> I must address a few things here however. In your list you listed Mantis. Thats a pretty broad statement as there are many styles of mantis. What style has he mastered, or is it the mantis system in its entirety? Not speaking for any other system of mantis, but 7 star is quite a large system to master, and if he did master it he should be accepted by a legitament instructor, right? Who did he train under for mantis? Also you listed 5 Animals Forms. Is this mean he knows some 5 animal forms? If so I wouldn't qualify that as mastering a system. Speaking of Chin Na, I know the 23 mantis chin-na techniques, does that mean I can list myself as having mastered the system of chin-na? Same goes with Tai Chi, what style? Who did he study under? What forms does he know?
> 
> Please don't take this as an attack, it is not. I'm simply saying that if your trying to convince someone of your teachers ligitimacy, these general statements will not do it.
> 
> Also I asked if your system was focused on fighting and self defense or on forms and performance. Neither is wrong, I'm just curious.
> 
> 7sm


It is nice to know you are very curious, there is nothing wrong with questions..
We don't really come to our Sifu and ask him the details of every martial art he knows, since he mainly is there to teach Yee Chuan Tao. Though if we were interested in learning a particular differ style/martial arts, we could ask him, or sifu rob, but we too are mainly there to learn Yee Chuan Tao. 
Every 'answer' we will give will sprout more questions and doubts, Kala and I are still beginning students and we cannot always accurately remember and quote everything our sifu had told us about his background. I personally don't want to bother because I'll probably just make sifu mike sound lesser in my inexperience and horrible explanatory skills. 
If Sifu Mike was giving false info, we would be able to see it in how effective his skill is, which is very effective. So far he has been able to live up to and show us he can do everything he said he can do, and that is more than enough proof to me. I would ask him every question everyone had asked above, but that would take a lot of mine and his time just to give to people over the internet that I will probably never meet, keep in touch with, or find it vital that they get this information, so I am sorry if your questions are left unanswered.
If you are going to the dallas Taiji Legacy tournament, we will be there, and then you can gawk and laugh and question us or whatever all you like when you see our performance for yourself I guess.
If you are seriously interested in and must know anymore questions please send a private message.
I appreciate everyone's interest in Yee Chuan Tao and our teachers


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## 7starmantis

aNadia said:
			
		

> It is nice to know you are very curious, there is nothing wrong with questions..
> We don't really come to our Sifu and ask him the details of every martial art he knows, since he mainly is there to teach Yee Chuan Tao. Though if we were interested in learning a particular differ style/martial arts, we could ask him, or sifu rob, but we too are mainly there to learn Yee Chuan Tao.
> Every 'answer' we will give will sprout more questions and doubts, Kala and I are still beginning students and we cannot always accurately remember and quote everything our sifu had told us about his background. I personally don't want to bother because I'll probably just make sifu mike sound lesser in my inexperience and horrible explanatory skills.


I certainly didn't mean to offend, I'm seriously curious. I work at my school so I have contact with allot of different sifus from allot of different places, so I'm very interested in lineages and different styles of CMA. I don't think that answers to certain questions will sprout more doubt, by their nature alone they will solidify beliefs about your school. See, good or bad, you want people to at least know about your school. You will never please everyone, so don't be afraid to produce answers, it will only help. 



			
				aNadia said:
			
		

> If Sifu Mike was giving false info, we would be able to see it in how effective his skill is, which is very effective. So far he has been able to live up to and show us he can do everything he said he can do, and that is more than enough proof to me. I would ask him every question everyone had asked above, but that would take a lot of mine and his time just to give to people over the internet that I will probably never meet, keep in touch with, or find it vital that they get this information, so I am sorry if your questions are left unanswered.


That is not necessarily true, no one here is saying your sifu doesn't have skill. In fact it seems he does, but it also seems he like to embellish. In this web savvy society, it is wise to understand and accept questions from online martial artists, especially a group this large and diverse, it can really help your cause. As a beginner your perception of skill is different from say mine, since I've been doing CMA since I was a kid. Performance is not a bad thing to be focused on, and it seems that is your schools focus. Don't be ashamed of that, accept it. There are few out there who understand the difficulty performance can impose. 



			
				aNadia said:
			
		

> If you are going to the dallas Taiji Legacy tournament, we will be there, and then you can gawk and laugh and question us or whatever all you like when you see our performance for yourself I guess.
> If you are seriously interested in and must know anymore questions please send a private message.
> I appreciate everyone's interest in Yee Chuan Tao and our teachers


Now this is disappointing. I've done nothing but ask serious questions that any sifu or student should be able and willing to divulge. Lineage is something that is extremely important in today's society. Without it, your school is already at a disadvantage. No one has said anything about gawking, laughing or questioning your skill. I will be there as will the entire US Kung Fu Exchange I am a part of. If you want to get into bragging of medals, we have plenty to show, but to me that is not the point. I am seriously interested and curious about your sifu and your style, but it seems you guys are a little closed to interests, so I will be forced to make my own assumptions and go from there. We already communicated in Private Message and you were very polite, why has that changed now? I don't understand why you perceive our interests and questions as threats.


7sm


----------



## aNadia

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I certainly didn't mean to offend, I'm seriously curious. I work at my school so I have contact with allot of different sifus from allot of different places, so I'm very interested in lineages and different styles of CMA. I don't think that answers to certain questions will sprout more doubt, by their nature alone they will solidify beliefs about your school. See, good or bad, you want people to at least know about your school. You will never please everyone, so don't be afraid to produce answers, it will only help.
> 
> 
> That is not necessarily true, no one here is saying your sifu doesn't have skill. In fact it seems he does, but it also seems he like to embellish. In this web savvy society, it is wise to understand and accept questions from online martial artists, especially a group this large and diverse, it can really help your cause. As a beginner your perception of skill is different from say mine, since I've been doing CMA since I was a kid. Performance is not a bad thing to be focused on, and it seems that is your schools focus. Don't be ashamed of that, accept it. There are few out there who understand the difficulty performance can impose.
> 
> 
> Now this is disappointing. I've done nothing but ask serious questions that any sifu or student should be able and willing to divulge. Lineage is something that is extremely important in today's society. Without it, your school is already at a disadvantage. No one has said anything about gawking, laughing or questioning your skill. I will be there as will the entire US Kung Fu Exchange I am a part of. If you want to get into bragging of medals, we have plenty to show, but to me that is not the point. I am seriously interested and curious about your sifu and your style, but it seems you guys are a little closed to interests, so I will be forced to make my own assumptions and go from there. We already communicated in Private Message and you were very polite, why has that changed now? I don't understand why you perceive our interests and questions as threats.
> 
> 
> 7sm


Actually, I don't perceive your interests and questions as threats. I'm not offended at all, and I'm not trying to brag about any medals. Gawking i guess is not the best word, what I had meant is just that you can see us and however you may react to how we do or what not-in my opinion I thought it would be a better understanding for people if they were already going to the tournament, then they would be able to see us, maybe meet us, you'd have much more answers that way I think? it is only my opinion.
Also, my class does not spend a lot of time on performance actually. Throughout the class we learn mostly self defense techniques and ballistic drills.
And I did realize that you have serious questions and that other people do which is why I'm hinting onto you to please send me a private message with your questions from now on


----------



## 7starmantis

I got you, thank you for being polite and understanding. I know it is hard via this medium to answer questions especially when being pressured.

I look forward to seeing and maybe meeting you guys at taiji legacy. Good luck in your training.

7sm


----------



## RHD

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> The martial arts I know he knows are:
> 
> Yee Chuan Tao
> Taekwondo
> Mantis
> Judo
> Kendo
> 5 animal forms
> Jiu Jitsu
> Chin Na
> Tai Chi
> 
> These are the ones he has shown me and has taught to some of his other students.
> Kala



Yee Chuan Tao=red
Taekwondo=green
Mantis=yellow
Judo=blue
Kendo=purple
5 animal forms=pink
Jiu Jitsu=orange
Chin Na=white
Tai Chi=black

Mix them all togehter and you get Brown, the color of mud.  Again I have to question whether your sifu is really a master of all these systems.  This is only 9 out of a supposed 23.  Sorry folks, I think you're buying into the hype.  It's a strange quality about student-instructor loyalty: Students will believe almost anything thier instructor tells them.  I know this from personal experience.  The truth is out there and I think as students you should have the right to know it.
Mike


----------



## 7starmantis

Yeah, that is the main problem I have, 23 systems. Speaking from experience, which allows me only to speak of mantis and tai chi, I would find it hard to believe someone who said they have mastered either one of them alone in 23 years.


7sm


----------



## aNadia

RHD said:
			
		

> Yee Chuan Tao=red
> Taekwondo=green
> Mantis=yellow
> Judo=blue
> Kendo=purple
> 5 animal forms=pink
> Jiu Jitsu=orange
> Chin Na=white
> Tai Chi=black
> 
> Mix them all togehter and you get Brown, the color of mud. Again I have to question whether your sifu is really a master of all these systems. This is only 9 out of a supposed 23. Sorry folks, I think you're buying into the hype. It's a strange quality about student-instructor loyalty: Students will believe almost anything thier instructor tells them. I know this from personal experience. The truth is out there and I think as students you should have the right to know it.
> Mike


Being skeptical is not a bad thing, you have every right, that's all apart of the way things work, right?
the 9 that were listed were pretty much the only ones remembered because everything except taekwondo and 5 animal are all publicly taught and listed on the class schedule-constantly mentioned during class, easily remembered..all the others aren't, so we don't remember them as well.
Do you think us students would have never been suspicious? Students have always been very suspicious, it's not like it's easy to believe you have a teacher too good to be true. 

This forum thread is not the first to have made and pointed out these observations. These questions, they've been asked many, many times before you. Even so, no one has yet found out if he was lying and faking it this whole time after 50 years old? For a famous stunt and movie fight scene choreographer and all the connections and hook ups from all those people that would have already tried to prove him wrong, though he just slipped through that and continues faking 23 certifications so easily?

It is not an easy thing to believe,it is highly uncommon for one- which I think everyone could agree on?

well if you have more questions keep asking but I'd really prefer private msg


----------



## RHD

aNadia said:
			
		

> Being skeptical is not a bad thing, you have every right, that's all apart of the way things work, right?
> the 9 that were listed were pretty much the only ones remembered because everything except taekwondo and 5 animal are all publicly taught and listed on the class schedule-constantly mentioned during class, easily remembered..all the others aren't, so we don't remember them as well.
> Do you think us students would have never been suspicious? Students have always been very suspicious, it's not like it's easy to believe you have a teacher too good to be true.
> 
> This forum thread is not the first to have made and pointed out these observations. These questions, they've been asked many, many times before you. Even so, no one has yet found out if he was lying and faking it this whole time after 50 years old? For a famous stunt and movie fight scene choreographer and all the connections and hook ups from all those people that would have already tried to prove him wrong, though he just slipped through that and continues faking 23 certifications so easily?
> 
> It is not an easy thing to believe,it is highly uncommon for one- which I think everyone could agree on?
> 
> well if you have more questions keep asking but I'd really prefer private msg



Sorry, I don't think you're getting the point.  Perhaps loyalty _is_ blinding.  *No One * can MASTER 23 complete systems.  Unless this guy is 300 years or more old of course there's no way he could have mastered 23 complete fighting systems.  And think about it a little bit, this supposed Yee Chuan Tao system he learned as a child...What child do you know that is physically, intellectually, and emotionally capable of mastering a martial art?  Are you telling us that he was some kind of martial arts child prodigy extroadinaire?

But again perhaps my definition of mastering is different from yours.  To me, mastering means having a deep understanding of and ability to use.  Say it out loud once:  Deep understanding and ability to use 23 complete fighting systems including empty handed and weapons training, deep understanding and ability to use a complete fighting system as a child.  Only Grandmaster of a rare and secretive family style unheard of anywhere other than in your teacher's school.  
Does it even sound possible?  No.  Need I mention the three years of underground no holds barred cage fighting (another unproveable I suppose)this guy supposedly engaged in from age 16 to 19? LOL!!! Give us a break!  It sounds a lot more like a comic book. Where were his parents?  Let me guess, he did this after school instead of chasing girls and doing his homework... Give me an "F", give me an "R", give me an "AUD", what's that spell?  FRAUD!

Sheesh, ask SevenStar how many different forms and weapons Preying Mantis has alone.  Hung Gar has 3 to 12 empty hand forms (depending on lineage and instructor) and at least as many weapons.  This is forms alone, there are drills, training tolls and exercises, concepts, strategies, internal training, self defense, and fighting skills.  I've been studying it for 14 years and am not so arrogant as to call myself a master.  20+ systems!?  BS! 

I may not have been the first to ask these questions, but I am surely not going to be the last.  There are many decent, honest, and hard working practitioners of real Chinese fighting systems that are grounded in reality and sick of this kind of blatant nonesense being associated with them.
Mike


----------



## 7starmantis

I kind of *have* to agree. I sent a few emails to said Sifu and they were completely against answering any of my very polite and simple questions. The number one sign of fraud is the refusal to answer any questions.


Oh, and in 7* mantis there are 18-20 empty hand forms alone. If you add in some of LKW's and others you can get higher. Then add in the weapons. It would be completely impossible to "master" mantis in a few years. I would say less than 10 would be almost 100% proof of a liar. In fact, anyone who tells me they have mastered mantis (or any CMA for that matter) I usually immediatly write them off a liar. My Sigung has done 7* for over 40 years and will be the first to say he has not mastered it.

7sm


----------



## RHD

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I kind of *have* to agree. I sent a few emails to said Sifu and they were completely against answering any of my very polite and simple questions. The number one sign of fraud is the refusal to answer any questions.
> 
> 
> Oh, and in 7* mantis there are 18-20 empty hand forms alone. If you add in some of LKW's and others you can get higher. Then add in the weapons. It would be completely impossible to "master" mantis in a few years. I would say less than 10 would be almost 100% proof of a liar. In fact, anyone who tells me they have mastered mantis (or any CMA for that matter) I usually immediatly write them off a liar. My Sigung has done 7* for over 40 years and will be the first to say he has not mastered it.
> 
> 7sm



Kind of felt jerky to dog that guy's students, but B.S. is B.S.
Mike


----------



## aNadia

Though I do not remember me being as bold to say he mastered 23 martial arts, I do remember saying he was qualified to teach them.


----------



## 7starmantis

aNadia said:
			
		

> Though I do not remember me being as bold to say he mastered 23 martial arts, I do remember saying he was qualified to teach them.


Even so, his website says he has spent 45 years as a martial artist. that equals just under 2 years in every system. I don't think anyone would agree that 2 years is enough time to legitimatly teach said system. Plus is says he spent 6 years in judo so that leaves each of the other 22 systems only right over a year and a half. I think that is the problem people are having with him and his legitimacy.

7sm


----------



## aNadia

I take judo, chi gung, and kung fu 5/7 days of the week. Even though he took judo for 6 years, is it not possible to be taking other arts at the same time? and I realize what you are saying about this, but I am just clearing up that nothing had been said particularly that he 'mastered' 23 martial arts.


----------



## RHD

aNadia said:
			
		

> I take judo, chi gung, and kung fu 5/7 days of the week. Even though he took judo for 6 years, is it not possible to be taking other arts at the same time? and I realize what you are saying about this, but I am just clearing up that nothing had been said particularly that he 'mastered' 23 martial arts.



Cool, only 20 more systems to go and some underground no holds barred cage matches and you're ready for your own website.  :ultracool 
 It's possible to take more than one class, and if that's your thing then I hope you enjoy it.  You're also right that you did not say "mastered", but rather "qualified" but that's a fairly vague term, especially when applied to various kung fu systems.

Let me tell you a bit about my background.
I'm 34, and have been involved with martial arts for 22 years.
At age 12 I began kenpo karate and made it through Orange belt.
I tried out Judo briefly, but found the instructor unpleasant.
I moved on to "American Karate" in High School, and from there into amatuer kick boxing.  I took up Hung Gar at age 20, and had some exposures to forms from Choy Li Fut, various animal styles, and Northern Shaolin, roughly 5 or 6 different systems.  With the exception of Hung Gar, none of these things do I feel qualified to teach.  I don't know the inner workings of anything except perhaps the Hung Gar, though I know others who've been doing it longer who are better.  
So you see, I could tell my students that I know all of those different styles, but that would be using a common sales tactic known as _guilding the lilly_, in other words, lying.  This is the problem I see you teacher as having. 
Mike


----------



## 7starmantis

aNadia said:
			
		

> I take judo, chi gung, and kung fu 5/7 days of the week. Even though he took judo for 6 years, is it not possible to be taking other arts at the same time? and I realize what you are saying about this, but I am just clearing up that nothing had been said particularly that he 'mastered' 23 martial arts.


I really have to agree with RHD on this, the embelishment of the statement is pretty obvious. I have the same kind of story that RHD does, I started CMA when I was 9 years old. That gives me a grand total of 16 years in MA. Now I've only studied 3 systems: Dragon Kung Fu, Jeet Kune Do, 7* mantis kung fu. I spent the longest in JKD so far at 7 years. I would not consider myself a qualified instructor of JKD. My point is that just mere time in a system doesn't a teacher make. If your doing 4 or 5 systems at the same time I think its going to take you even longer to get to a point of teaching in either of them.

Its these types of statements that make it unbelieveable. Like the never loosing a match in the underground no holds barred fighting. My sigung was the East Coast Full Contact Fighting Champion when he was young and he never claims to have never lost a match. Its just that little extra embelishment that makes things so unbelievable.

7sm


----------



## aNadia

> Cool, only 20 more systems to go and some underground no holds barred cage matches and you're ready for your own website.


I feel like I've been polite to you so far rhd, and I'd kind of appreciate if you could state your points without being so rude.
I was saying the three martial arts i do at the same time simply to compare that sifu mike could have done stuff at the same time, and studying more system at the same time seem easier to me, chi gung/tai chi helps a lot with kung fu and judo, doing judo at the same time as kung fu helps me apply grappling work better with it and kung fu is helpful in judo so it all works out.
I think it's cool about your backgrounds I think all martial arts are great. i did kickboxing/tkd at 11 and kyudo at 14, now this.
Although Sifu Mike did his underground cage fighting it is something I don't brag about because I'm not too keen on that kind of violence and fighting for money and I'm glad that that was when he was in his late teens and grown out of it. If Sifu Mike had lost a challenge, he'd probably be crippled or dead, because that's how brutal it was, fights lasted about 15 seconds.


----------



## RHD

aNadia said:
			
		

> I feel like I've been polite to you so far rhd, and I'd kind of appreciate if you could state your points without being so rude.
> I was saying the three martial arts i do at the same time simply to compare that sifu mike could have done stuff at the same time, and studying more system at the same time seem easier to me, chi gung/tai chi helps a lot with kung fu and judo, doing judo at the same time as kung fu helps me apply grappling work better with it and kung fu is helpful in judo so it all works out.
> I think it's cool about your backgrounds I think all martial arts are great. i did kickboxing/tkd at 11 and kyudo at 14, now this.
> Although Sifu Mike did his underground cage fighting it is something I don't brag about because I'm not too keen on that kind of violence and fighting for money and I'm glad that that was when he was in his late teens and grown out of it. If Sifu Mike had lost a challenge, he'd probably be crippled or dead, because that's how brutal it was, fights lasted about 15 seconds.



You're right aNadia, I've been rude.  I am a bit of a rude person and I don't believe in being PC, especially when it comes to Chinese martial arts discussion.  Why?  Because as a practitioner and a teacher of kung fu I am affected by highly visible people who make bogus claims about thier kung fu.  The general public often can't or won't distinguish crap from reality and thier perceptions, if based on crap, make it much more difficult to legitimize what I teach.  To most people, kung fu is kung fu.  Sadly, I think that others on this board will understand what I'm saying.  Look at what has happened to TKD...the proliferation of shi**y TKD has overshadowed many of the decent, honest, hardworking TKD schools out there.  I don't want that to happen with CMA.  I may not be able to stop it, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and keep my mouth shut while it happens.

Its very clear that you buy into what your sifu has told you.  Look at what you're saying: _underground cage fighting...in his late teens[/I.  Again, more unprovable hype.  Look at this forum and others and you will find that the vast majority of level headed people see claims like this as a flag for B.S.  
It would benefit you to do a little research aNadia into the styles your sifu claims to teach.  Find out what they're about and what it takes to get an understanding of them.  Seek the truth rather than waiting for your teacher to tell it to you.  I doubt you will take the time to do this however, as you seem to be more interested in taking whatever the almighty super-sifu tells you as an unquestioning follower...(more danger flags)
I was once like that myself.  My own sifu told me a lot of things that I wanted to believe about his background.  In my eyes he was something beyond the norm, an undefeatable master of many styles.  Over the years there were a few cracks that appeared in his stories and claims, but I mostly ignored them, and adamantly defended him to any and all who questioned his ability and legitimacy.  Eventually, I made some inquiries of my own and found out that things were definately not the way my sifu had told me and I couldn't ignore it any more.   I felt like a major a** for following him so blindly, and it took me years to sort it all out.  It was like a very sad and painful divorce.  I learned many valueable lessons from this experience about people, kung fu, and the business of kung fu.  You see, it is a business, and I believe your teacher is probably an excellent salesman.  When you make your living teaching martial arts you are in a highly competitive business and you have to make youself stand out or you will not make your $.  This is a cold hard truth about this line of work.  But most of all I learned that if it doesn't look right, and doesn't sound right, and if it can't be backed up with facts, then its probably not true. 
So, once again, sorry if you find me rude, but I hate to see a nice person like you get ripped off or lied to and I feel passionate about fraud or B.S. associated with CMA.
Mike_


----------



## Keaka o Kanaka

I don't know if I should revive this thread or not considering that everyone's pretty well convinced Sifu Mike is a fake.  I have a website that has Gene Lebell speaking very highly of him.  Gene Lebell even named a move after my Sifu.  If this doesn't prove to you people that he's legit....then I really don't know what will.  Read the story about Brandon Lee and he speaks of Sifu Mike.

http://www.genelebell.com/stories.asp


----------



## 7starmantis

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> I don't know if I should revive this thread or not considering that everyone's pretty well convinced Sifu Mike is a fake. I have a website that has Gene Lebell speaking very highly of him. Gene Lebell even named a move after my Sifu. If this doesn't prove to you people that he's legit....then I really don't know what will. Read the story about Brandon Lee and he speaks of Sifu Mike.
> 
> http://www.genelebell.com/stories.asp


I don't know who Gene LeBell is and having looked at that website I see someone who places alot of their identity in being recognized by famous people. I find that kind of sad and it doesn't really give me a huge respect for this Lebell guy or whomever he recognizes as legit. You guys seem to place alot of stake in what actors say. A hollywood actor doesn't hold much weight for me. Whether or not one of them says good things about someone, doesn't make me think they are legit. I think its also a sign of something that you feel the need to prove the legitimacy of your sifu. Your legitimacy should be proved by your skill, not by signed pictures of famous people.

7sm


----------



## RevelationX

I hate to interject at this late in the game but...here is my take. Ask your instructor to name EVERY liniage from EVERY art he has "masterd" by at least _one _generation. Names, schools, organizations, locations, even phone numbers of the most recent. This will give you (and everyone else) the answer.

I do not doubt that your teacher may have some Martial skill and/or experience. From my second day training in Wing Chun I could show your average joe something impressive and look good doing it. This ,however, did not make me a "Master". And, I also do not doubt that you are receiving some benefit from your association and training with him. I do however doubt his claims, his system, and his scruples, for if he his in fact decieving you in a few aspects, what other parts of his character (that you have yet to see) are also deceptive?  Just some food for thought.

FWIW, In all my years of studying the history and background of CMA, I personally have NEVER heard of an art created by a one arm man. Rumor, written, or otherwise. 

In contrast, new arts are created all of the time based on improvisation, social, environmental, or economic change, and in combining, deleting or distorting various current Martial Arts styles. Not that im claiming this to be inherently good or bad, I am just saying it happens.  When it does, the "creator" normally is forward and truthful about its design and his/her intentions, so there is a trust and understanding even if you agree with that instructor's methods or not.

IMO, this it what I see this instructor doing (i.e. to combine a little of the best of what he knows) however, then trying to pass it off as something its not. Not the type person I would train from, sad to say.

Good Luck with your training. I hope everything works out.


----------



## WLMantisKid

Just to interject... 
My sifu went through the "sifu training program" of Wah Lum and it took him 6 years, at 8 hours a day every day to become qualified enough to teach the system. Teaching in most Mantis school requires you to be very proficient in many of the weapons (maybe all of them... and theres 32).

and by a rough estimate, it would take 15 years at 6 hours a week to learn everything in the Wah Lum Mantis system. There's loads of empty hand forms, 2 man forms, weapon forms, 2 man weapon forms, etc. etc. plus all the advanced stuff to keep you VERY busy for a VERY long time.


----------



## Keaka o Kanaka

http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/halloffame/genelebell.htm


----------



## RHD

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/halloffame/genelebell.htm



Does Gene LeBell support your sifu's claims?  Or are they just show biz industry friends?  I still wonder about those no holds barred underground fights in his teens.  What a brutal childhood :wink2: 

Why doesn't he come online here and give us some info to back up his claims?
Mike


----------



## aNadia

What had started out as curiousity seems to have changed into some sort of competition. Why would I waste my time asking my sifu such a large question for a person I will never meet, never know, and therefore I do not see it worth my time of my life to do a favor for someone I'm sorry to say I do not care very much for. If all you want to do is contradict everything we have to say, then just mind your own business already. I have no desire whatsoever to help people with such a negative, cocky attitude. Would you? Would you keep your patience with how most of you are approaching us? You think you have the right to disrespect us and our sifu based on your knowledge of martial arts? Are you a master? do you teach kung fu? have you studied martial arts for 45 years? Until you can meet your match I wouldn't suggest to speak with such ill remarks.



> Ask your instructor to name EVERY liniage from EVERY art he has "masterd" by at least _one _generation. Names, schools, organizations, locations, even phone numbers of the most recent
> 
> Does Gene LeBell support your sifu's claims? Or are they just show biz industry friends?


Did I not already mention we have never said our sifu mastered any other arts than Yee Chuan Tao? We said qualified to teach. What I'm receiving is that these questions are no longer questions of interest but withering into mockery and reasons to try and prove us wrong. With those intentions, you've lost my respect. 



> I think its also a sign of something that you feel the need to prove the legitimacy of your sifu. Your legitimacy should be proved by your skill, not by signed pictures of famous people.


Funny you should analyze my friend that way. Do you know his hair color? Do you know his thoughts? Do you know his face, his humor, do you know him at all? If you do not know even these you much less likely would have any idea of how he feels. If we could prove it to you by our skill that would be much easier, unfortunately, you are a bit of a far swim from here. 
I respected you once upon a time, 7starmantis.

If any of you were sincerely interested, you would have private messaged me like I've asked more than once.

We had been nothing but tolerant with rudeness. If you're sincerely interested, private message me, or you will not get any answers.

thanks. -Nadia


----------



## Bod

7* I'm surprised you haven't heard of Gene Lebell. He was a catch wrestler,  judo player and stuntman and professional wrestler. Quite a showman, but very skilled in wrestling. Definitely a well known in the movie martial arts business.

I've seen the stuff on him on the web, and it al fits together. The man is primarily a showman. The amount of movies he has stunt coordinated is impressive, but the time spent doing so must have precluded him from the amounts of training that would make him 'qualified to teach' the arts in his bio.

I don't think he is a martial arts charlatan per se just not a trad CMA sigung in the classical sense. I think he is using the term 'qualified to teach' to mean 'qualified to teach skills wise' rather than 'certified to teach'.

My guess is that the 23 MAs include judo, catch wrestling, greco roman, folk style and nhb wrestling. That's six for the price of one. 

He sounds like a great guy, but you do have to take talk of 88 master lineages with a pinch of salt. Even if he's telling the God's-honest truth as he heard it, it only takes his master's master's creative story telling to knock it down to a 3 master lineage.

Also, when you start making up forms on the fly, you can reset your lineage back to 0. If his art has any trace of Taoist belief in it, then you could trace the origins to cave-men, at the dawn of history. These beliefs are, in some form, really that old, and must have been passed down through many generations to get to us. But when that is all said and done, do you have a system? What does the system mean now, and what did it mean then?

Why isn't Sifu Mike learning from Sifu Rob? After all, Sifu Rob is good enough to create his own style, whereas in Sifu Mike's lineage, no-one was good enough to change it for the past 88-generations. It does seem strange that both strict tradition and innovation appear together in the same school.

The answer would be that, regardless of skill, your teacher is a showman, and probably good at it. Personally I'd give him a go, because guys who have been in the industry that long probably have something to offer.

However, the question "Is this guy legit" means, in the context of this forum, "Is this guy teaching trad. CMA?" It looks like the answer is no.


----------



## 7starmantis

aNadia said:
			
		

> Funny you should analyze my friend that way. Do you know his hair color? Do you know his thoughts? Do you know his face, his humor, do you know him at all? If you do not know even these you much less likely would have any idea of how he feels. If we could prove it to you by our skill that would be much easier, unfortunately, you are a bit of a far swim from here.
> I respected you once upon a time, 7starmantis.
> thanks. -Nadia


Whoa now, lets calm this down a bit. I understand your loss of patience, but be careful at whom you direct your anger. I didn't analyze anyone in anyway Nadia, you seem to have misinterpreted what I said as an attack. I can see where you could do that as this thread has caused some attacks, but it still makes it incorrect. I was not attacking anyone, what I was simply saying is that to prove your legitimacy should not and cannot be done by quoting famous people who have said your legit. The only true way to prove your legitimacy is by your skill, that is how kung fu works, you stand on your own skill. I never mentioned anything about how your friend or you feel, I don't understand why you said that. You can prove your skill level via this medium, videos and pictures and such are very well acclimated for proving skill level. 

Having read this last post Nadia, I'm sorry to say that I to respected you at one time, however posts like these do not inspire me to keep that respect. We communicated via private messages, remember, you _*were*_ very polite and respectful, a long cry from today. I'm sorry you feel the need to be disrespectful just because others have been, I was seriously interested in your art, lineage, and even sifu until now.


:asian:  7sm

PS: I have also sent this to you via PM as per your request.


----------



## RHD

aNadia said:
			
		

> What had started out as curiousity seems to have changed into some sort of competition. Why would I waste my time asking my sifu such a large question for a person I will never meet, never know, and therefore I do not see it worth my time of my life to do a favor for someone I'm sorry to say I do not care very much for. If all you want to do is contradict everything we have to say, then just mind your own business already. I have no desire whatsoever to help people with such a negative, cocky attitude. Would you? Would you keep your patience with how most of you are approaching us? You think you have the right to disrespect us and our sifu based on your knowledge of martial arts? Are you a master? do you teach kung fu? have you studied martial arts for 45 years? Until you can meet your match I wouldn't suggest to speak with such ill remarks.
> 
> -Nadia



Touchy, touchy...

Don't ask for me.  Ask for yourself. Caveat Emptor.
  As for respecting your sifu, we ask questions to establish factual basis to give some respect to your teacher.  Your response is to get defensive.  We explain why we feel the way we do, based on personal experience, and your response is again defensive, and now personal.  

 Am I a master?  No, I will never claim such a title.  Anyone who introduces themself to you or anyone as a master, is the arrogant one, and probably far form the mark on thier title.  I have studied martial arts for 23 years, not as long as your sifu claims, but a fair amount of time.  I have a decent level of knowledge about my chosen system of Hung Gar, and have studied and researched other Chinese systems, but claim little functional knowledge in them.  So, sorry your so easily offended.

Rather than ask about your sifu's background, may I ask about the Yee Chuan Tao system itself?  Is it Northern or Southern?  The name is Mandarin, so one would assume that it is Northeren.  Is is animal based?  A Long fist style?  Are there many forms?   If so, what are the major forms of the system.   Are there trademark techniques or tools that Yee Chuan Tao uses?  Are the forms linnear or cross pattern?  How does one in Yee Chuan Tao transition from forms to fighting?  Weapons?

Feel free to ask me any questions about Hung Gar. 

Mike :hammer:


----------



## RevelationX

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Whoa now, lets calm this down a bit. I understand your loss of patience, but be careful at whom you direct your anger. I didn't analyze anyone in anyway Nadia, you seem to have misinterpreted what I said as an attack. I can see where you could do that as this thread has caused some attacks, but it still makes it incorrect. I was not attacking anyone, what I was simply saying is that to prove your legitimacy should not and cannot be done by quoting famous people who have said your legit. The only true way to prove your legitimacy is by your skill, that is how kung fu works, you stand on your own skill. I never mentioned anything about how your friend or you feel, I don't understand why you said that. You can prove your skill level via this medium, videos and pictures and such are very well acclimated for proving skill level.
> 
> Having read this last post Nadia, I'm sorry to say that I to respected you at one time, however posts like these do not inspire me to keep that respect. We communicated via private messages, remember, you _*were*_ very polite and respectful, a long cry from today. I'm sorry you feel the need to be disrespectful just because others have been, I was seriously interested in your art, lineage, and even sifu until now.
> 
> 
> :asian: 7sm
> 
> PS: I have also sent this to you via PM as per your request.


I *also* gave you no disrespect, nor was it intended. I _was_ trying to give you a way to quell the masses with their inqurys, as well as, the possibilty to represent your style, and your teacher, to those who range from curious to skeptical. 

Now, some of the replys here may be a little harsh, but most are legitimate questions for people who care with whom they spend their hard earned time and money to acquire knowledge to further thier own Martial and Spiritual growth. You can understand this point if you have ever started training with a teacher to then later find out that he is just there to take your money, and/or his skill level is not where it should be as far as a "Mastery" is concerned.
You then feel cheated, and that your precious time has been wasted. 

Now, No one wants to feel that, so do not blame them for inquiring about an off-beat or rare art that few have trained in or heard of. I you feel that it is not your place to speak for your teacher, his liniage, or the art (Which most people could respect), then have him come on to answer any questions, prospective students, scholars, or curious individuals may have regarding the system. If he declines, so be it. You are no worse for the wear, and your teacher has made his decision to not promote the art that he holds so dear.

That being said, Please, be a little more carefull in your generalized accusations in the future.

Anyways, as I said before, Good Luck to you, and Happy Training.


----------



## RevelationX

aNadia said:
			
		

> What had started out as curiousity seems to have changed into some sort of competition. Why would I waste my time asking my sifu such a large question for a person I will never meet, never know, and therefore I do not see it worth my time of my life to do a favor for someone I'm sorry to say I do not care very much for. If all you want to do is contradict everything we have to say, then just mind your own business already. I have no desire whatsoever to help people with such a negative, cocky attitude. Would you? Would you keep your patience with how most of you are approaching us? You think you have the right to disrespect us and our sifu based on your knowledge of martial arts? Are you a master? do you teach kung fu? have you studied martial arts for 45 years? Until you can meet your match I wouldn't suggest to speak with such ill remarks.
> 
> Did I not already mention we have never said our sifu mastered any other arts than Yee Chuan Tao? *We said qualified to teach*. What I'm receiving is that these questions are no longer questions of interest but withering into mockery and reasons to try and prove us wrong. With those intentions, you've lost my respect.
> 
> 
> thanks. -Nadia


In regards to this specific quote: 

Let me simply change the question a prospective student (or even yourself) has the right to ask someone who they are about to make a large commitment to (i.e. money and time).  Instead of the word "Mastered", all you have to do is change the wording around to what you decribed as "Qualified to teach".  Now, the question will be more easily answered. 

One may then ask for this possible (or current) teacher his specific "quaifications" in _each_ art that he claims to hold this particular level of competentcy in. Each liniage, each instructor, each contact references (i.e. location, school name, phone number, website, etc.) 

As stated in my previous post, you do *not* _have to_*,* perform this task yourself, if you feel it isnt your place to do so.
However, the individual who started this thread may feel so inclined, as it is his right to question what he/she may be getting his or herself into. Your teacher now has the option to respond accordingly, or to not respond at all. Either way, the ball is in his court, and his decision will reflect the "outcome" of this thread, including the view of the people monitoring this thread.

To ask this question (as well as others) is also the right of the scholar, the curious, and the skeptical, because it is also their responsibility to themselves to ponder and question any information that they come across so as to make the best conclusion or decision for their own specific needs within their life, and their realm of influence.

This post, as well as my previous, contains no malice or ill intent towards you, or your teacher. It is just a simple question, a statment of fact, and one man's view of the information provided.

Good Luck to You.


----------



## 7starmantis

RHD said:
			
		

> Rather than ask about your sifu's background, may I ask about the Yee Chuan Tao system itself? Is it Northern or Southern? The name is Mandarin, so one would assume that it is Northeren. Is is animal based? A Long fist style? Are there many forms? If so, what are the major forms of the system. Are there trademark techniques or tools that Yee Chuan Tao uses? Are the forms linnear or cross pattern? How does one in Yee Chuan Tao transition from forms to fighting? Weapons?
> 
> Feel free to ask me any questions about Hung Gar.
> 
> Mike :hammer:


I would be very interested in hearing the answers to some of these questions. It seems little has actually been presented about the art itself on this thread, and I would love to hear more about it.

7sm


----------



## Keaka o Kanaka

RHD said:
			
		

> Rather than ask about your sifu's background, may I ask about the Yee Chuan Tao system itself? Is it Northern or Southern? The name is Mandarin, so one would assume that it is Northeren. Is is animal based? A Long fist style? Are there many forms? If so, what are the major forms of the system. Are there trademark techniques or tools that Yee Chuan Tao uses? Are the forms linnear or cross pattern? How does one in Yee Chuan Tao transition from forms to fighting? Weapons?
> 
> Feel free to ask me any questions about Hung Gar.
> 
> Mike :hammer:


I don't know everything about Yee Chuan Tao, but I will happily share all that i know about it.  Yee Chuan Tao translates into "The way of one fist" because it was developed by a man who had lost his arm in war.  the style has been past on from master to one student for generations.  Since it's a family system, it's supposed to be past down the bloodline.  When my Sifu was three his grandfather died, and Tiong Leong (i doubt i spelled that correctly) lost his son to illness.  Tiong Leong was good friends with Sifu Mike's parents and needed a student, so he took in Sifu Mike.  I know this will be hard to believe but most family forms teach you all the animal forms (all from Crane to Reindeer).  He also learned all the weapons (first chinese and then later learned a vast amount of foreign weaponry).  Yee Chuan Tao's fighting style consists of splashing hand techniques, grabs, pushes, and a lot of wrist locks and joint locks.  Right now I'm injured so i only have one arm to use.  Sifu mike has been teaching me the same thing he teaches in class just with one arm.  i have to go now though.  i'm scheduled for surgery tomorrow.  i know this isn't much.  i'll post more later


----------



## RHD

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> I don't know everything about Yee Chuan Tao, but I will happily share all that i know about it.  Yee Chuan Tao translates into "The way of one fist" because it was developed by a man who had lost his arm in war.  the style has been past on from master to one student for generations.  Since it's a family system, it's supposed to be past down the bloodline.  When my Sifu was three his grandfather died, and Tiong Leong (i doubt i spelled that correctly) lost his son to illness.  Tiong Leong was good friends with Sifu Mike's parents and needed a student, so he took in Sifu Mike.  I know this will be hard to believe but most family forms teach you all the animal forms (all from Crane to Reindeer).  He also learned all the weapons (first chinese and then later learned a vast amount of foreign weaponry).  Yee Chuan Tao's fighting style consists of splashing hand techniques, grabs, pushes, and a lot of wrist locks and joint locks.  Right now I'm injured so i only have one arm to use.  Sifu mike has been teaching me the same thing he teaches in class just with one arm.  i have to go now though.  i'm scheduled for surgery tomorrow.  i know this isn't much.  i'll post more later



Good luck with your surgury.

Not a rip, but isn't it ironic that a system developed by a one armed man has a lot of wrist locks? :idunno: 

Anyway, When you recove could you give some more infor on the animal forms?  I've never heard of reindeer.  Actually, I wasn't aware that reindeer lived in China.  Does the footwork for Yee Chuan Tao have some common threads or does each animal have different patterns?  Also, any idea on the Northern-Southern thing?  I am particularly interested in Southern Tiger based forms from a reasearch perspective.  Perhaps angry Nadia can provide some input.

Mike


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## 7starmantis

That is interesting, I've never heard of reindeer either. Another question is about the weapons. Traditionally there are 118 chinese weapons, did he learn all of them and then go to other weapons or was there a certain amount he had to learn?


7sm


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## Keaka o Kanaka

Thanks for the wishes of luck.  My surgery is finished though my arm is sore.  I had to practice Yee Chuan Tao with one arm today.  It was pretty cool.  I just asked my sifu all the questions that you guys asked...all that i remembered anyway...Yee Chuan Tao is a northern system.  It isn't shaolin.  The first chinese martial art was something called Yo yin or Jo yin or something like that.  Which was a military martial art.  This evolved into the taoist martial arts.  Yee Chuan Tao being the first.  After aspects of Yee Chuan Tao were made known, other taoist arts branched off (tai chi, bagua, etc.).  The Taoist martial arts are over 4,500 years old.  The Taoist priest were also travelers of the land seeing many things.  Reindeer are found in the Gobi desert.  There are over a hundred animal forms.  weird ones like reindeer and elephant, and scorpion aren't as widely known as the five main animal forms.  As for the wrist lock thing, we do some one handed catches with wrist locks and joint locks.  They work very well.  I forgot to ask about the weapons.  Sifu mike has demonstrated a great deal of weapons and claims to know all the weapons in chinese martial arts and all the other foreign weapons he's ever trained with.  I hope i got mostly everything.  I hope this aids in furthering your knowledge about Yee Chuan Tao.


----------



## 7starmantis

Please dont take this as me being rude, but I do have a few questions I would be interested in hearing your response to. Are these lesser known animals forms such as reindeer only taught in Yee Chuan Tao? Its also interesting that yee chuan tao claims to be one of the first and even predating taiji. Do you know any of the names of who developed this system? I mean back when it became one of the first taoist martial arts? Like who is claimed as the founder?  One other thing, I couldn't find a lineage chart on the website, do you guys know your lineages?

7sm


----------



## Keaka o Kanaka

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Please dont take this as me being rude, but I do have a few questions I would be interested in hearing your response to. Are these lesser known animals forms such as reindeer only taught in Yee Chuan Tao? Its also interesting that yee chuan tao claims to be one of the first and even predating taiji. Do you know any of the names of who developed this system? I mean back when it became one of the first taoist martial arts? Like who is claimed as the founder? One other thing, I couldn't find a lineage chart on the website, do you guys know your lineages?
> 
> 7sm


I don't think questions of this nature are rude.  Feel free to ask so you may learn.  There are other styles that do the exotic animal forms too.  Shaolins I've seen do crab and elephant.  The exotic animals just aren't as widely practiced as the others.  Ihave to ask my Sifu who the Sijo of yee chuan tao is.  Our lineage chart, as well as a great deal of other ancient antiquities passed down the generations, was stolen.  My Sifu can recall back a few generations and knows the founder, but the knowledge of our lineage is completely lost forever.  Well, i shouldn't say forever.  I'll check into the founder and the Sigungs before Sifu Mike.  As of now,I only know my Sifu's Sifu who was Xian Leong (that is the correct spelling) who fled from the communists of china.


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> Does Gene LeBell support your sifu's claims? Or are they just show biz industry friends? I still wonder about those no holds barred underground fights in his teens. What a brutal childhood :wink2:
> 
> Why doesn't he come online here and give us some info to back up his claims?
> Mike


Gene Labell is a grappling legend. Doesn't matter where your from, Gene is for real. I don't know if any one person can 'support' another persons 'claims' without either being a member of the same 'association' or 'lineage', or having taken part in the experience themselves.... 

With that said... I emailed Gene Labell about Sifu Mike Vendrell a couple years ago while researching Sifu Vendrells background before going to Hawaii to meet him. Sifu Mike Vendrell is a Gene Labell black belt. I believe Mr. Labell has only given these to 12 people in his lifetime. Nor is it something that is for sale. Labell is in his 80's now. 

Thought that might interest you. 

Kind Regards,

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon


----------



## grappling_mandala

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Are these lesser known animals forms such as reindeer only taught in Yee Chuan Tao?
> 
> 7sm


There are forms of "deer" boxing in other systems.

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=4848

I've never seen any of them. 

Dave


----------



## grappling_mandala

Bod said:
			
		

> 7*





			
				Bod said:
			
		

> The answer would be that, regardless of skill, your teacher is a showman, and probably good at it. Personally I'd give him a go, because guys who have been in the industry that long probably have something to offer.
> 
> 
> 
> However, the question "Is this guy legit" means, in the context of this forum, "Is this guy teaching trad. CMA?" It looks like the answer is no.





I will attempt to address the idea of what teaching CMA has come to mean in regards to style and lineage.

I went to hawaii myself to judge (for myself) the claims by those greater then I (like Gene Labell) that Michael Vendrell has something unique to offer all martial art practitioners. Afterall we all seek 'unique' experiences with known 'masters' of various systems whever we get the chance, if not, you miss out on judging for yourself what others simple gossip about. What I found at the 'welcome mat' is a man who appears to have been traditionally trained from a young age in a system of taoist healing and martial art. 

The reason I went is because one of my first martial art teachers (Rhys) was an ex-student of Mike's. While my main focus for my time in the arts has been grappling, the perspectives that were continually offered me by Rhys helped my grappling game grow in the alive environment (active sparring) that I love to train in. 

Rhys was always teaching me about concepts, principles and ideas that built up technique. (rather than technique leading me to the concepts) What I found is that once I understood a concept I was free to spontaneously create my own form out of the need of the moment. 

My traditional jiu jitsu training was based on memorizing forms/moves, and then trying to get those moves to work in a non-confrontational environment. My not so traditional grappling training emphasizes alive application of technique vs. memorizing forms that may or may not work. As a result technique is understood in the context of the situation and is applied easily under stress. 


Being a part of both cultures has been beneficial to me in so far that I have come to see there are various ways of teaching any art. 

One way of teaching art is form based, a textbook of memorized patterns between positions, the goal being to lead you to the edge of the art into spontaneous creativity that transcends the formula of the 'form'. 


Another way of teaching is the formless way, similiar to what Bruce Lee was trying to transmit via Jeet Kune Do, or Ueshiba via Aikido. Read anything of what these two men had to say about movement and you will see some common threads. Both seek aliveness in combat, the perfect organic answer (we are organic) to the myriad of possible variations in human movement. Both use nature in their greatest metaphors. 

What I found Sifu Vendrell has to say about form seems unique compared to what is labeled as 'Traditional Chinese Martial Art' (TCMA) He says basically that to become a slave to form at the expense of understanding the meaning behind movement is to limit yourself. There are no forms in Yee Chuan Tao. 

This formlessness I have personal interest in. Being as I love to grapple I've found similar thought on the mat, especially when it comes to the aliveness guys like Matt Thorton offer in their clubs. This Aliveness (or formlessness) is the basis of many 'new schools of martial thought' that are actively involved in providing an environment for the practitioner to train reflexes to respond to what is in the NOW. vs. what the memorized form is. Yes, you've heard it before, all the brand named 'formless' forms, the form vs. formless argument of traditional vs. mma schools of thought.... Bruce Lee said it, modern mixed martial art fighters practice it to the limits of what the sport allows. 

I think the common misunderstanding for many is that formless means meaninglessness. Good posture, balance, and technical understanding are still a part of formless arts formless simple means no 'memorized' forms outside of what is in the now. (ie the context of physical interaction with people or elements) 

If in the context of this forum, TCMA encompasses the memorization of 'form' passed down thru a lineage, based on my experience I don't believe Mike Vendrell would want to be associated with that. Mike teaches that the form is there only to transcend. To find your own personal 'art' that is effective because it's yours. Thus he teaches animal forms because he knows them, but there is an emphasis in his classes on the reoccurring patterns inside of forms that utilize available body mechanics in an effective way. 

It's a bit of a paradox this form and formless debate. 

Yet the paradox is embraced by TCMA's who practice standing forms for long periods. Standing Meditation is practiced by all three internal 'treasures', Tai Chi, BuGua and Xing Yi, and not isolated to them alone. 


In the sliver of artists practicing Pile Standing, Stake Standing, Universal Post, etc, we find a group interested in understanding the deeper kinesthetic connections that the form attempts to reveal to the practitioner. This seems to me an attempt to strip away the unneeded and align the body to a natural state. A transcendence of form.

Personally, I find it odd that 'stillness' would make a difference in any art based on movement, yet this is what occurs. How many of us have heard all the stories about the old master who stands still in the park and is light as a feather when you push hands with him. 


In researching other known lineages of Yi Quan (the other yi quan) I find lots of reference to standing forms of meditation as well. This supports my experience that there are different styles of teaching and transmitting arts, even inside of what is called 'traditional' channels.

Its very easy to place emphasis on certain aspects of information based on the medium in which it is transmitted. There are many mediums to transmit information by, we can see this in our own evolution of communication technology. Language, Symbol, Printed Word, Photography, Telegraph, Telephone, Television, the Internet. All mediums that amplify certain parts of the spectrum of information available to us. The oral transmission of martial art would fall somewhere near the top of the list, predating previous information technology. Only in the recent past have we placed an emphasis on forms of mediated information that actually DILUTE natural human relationships. I ask myself why, and I have to say because people feel SAFER reading a book or watching television or reading the internet. Its harder to take an honest breath and FEEL what someone else has to teach. 

Thats why I went to Hawaii. Because every person who Ive ever felt like I learned something from had a feel to them. Well, sometimes I DONT feel them, then its even better! But anyways I FELT what is was they had learned, the accumulation of life experience. Not just what they said, or what names where before them, but the whole person. 

I wont discount the convenience of lineage charts, but Ive met plenty of TCMAs who have lineage and forms, but dont actually have a core understanding of the nature of physical conflict resolution. 

Which leads us back to the formless nature expressed as the goal of so many TCMA and embodied by modern founders like Bruce Lee and Ueshiba.

Far as I can tell, Vendrell was trained traditionally in a way that allowed him a base to know other systems. Thus the formlessness of the Taoist mystics takes shape as it manifests in any style. Tai chi practitioners would know this as wu chi what existed before tai chi. Vendrell simply says, Its what Leong taught me. 

But the real reason I keep going back is what he feels like. And that you just have to experience yourself. Words can not describe the wordless and when they do, they are simply enigmatic reflections of the moon on water. 

In conclusion Form as it relates to formlessness means that good martial art isn't based on 'style' it's based on understanding yourself. A style is a result of movement as it has occured inside of social and personal historical context.  


My honest opinion is that Mike Vendrell teaches a 'living' form of martial art, he doesnt seek fame, and from my experience seems to have gone out of his way to stay out of any limelight that would draw attention to him. He's one of the most gifted teachers I have had the honor of learning from. 

Kindest Regards to all and good training to you,



Dave Copeland

Portland, Oregon

PS - Mike is also a very gifted healer. I would say go and visit him and just be honest about your love for the art and ask questions and see what happens. Genuine artists have genuine questions. Any teacher can give any answer, but in the end your own progress is a result of you being a good student AND finding good teachers.


----------



## RHD

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> Gene Labell is a grappling legend. Doesn't matter where your from, Gene is for real. I don't know if any one person can 'support' another persons 'claims' without either being a member of the same 'association' or 'lineage', or having taken part in the experience themselves....
> 
> With that said... I emailed Gene Labell about Sifu Mike Vendrell a couple years ago while researching Sifu Vendrells background before going to Hawaii to meet him. Sifu Mike Vendrell is a Gene Labell black belt. I believe Mr. Labell has only given these to 12 people in his lifetime. Nor is it something that is for sale. Labell is in his 80's now.
> 
> Thought that might interest you.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Dave Copeland
> Portland, Oregon



I have no question about Gene Labell or who he gives a black belt to.  

What I question is anyone who claims to be the undefeated survivor of "underground" no holds barred matches in their teen years.  I question anyone who claims to be the only successor to a Chinese martial art that 1) no one has ever heard of before  2) an art that has no documented existence before now  3) claimes to have be taught to a level of mastery as a child  etc...etc...etc...

It sounds like you are a friend of Mr. Vendrell who's coming to his defense online.  Very noble of you.  I'm sure that Mr. Vendrell also has very little to do with anyone else in the Chinese Martial arts community.  Why would that be I wonder...If he does, it would be very nice to hear from them.  I won;t hold my breath though, because I truly believe that if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck....its probably a duck.

Mike


----------



## RHD

BTW...

As far as my research goes, Yi Quan is a rather recent development in CMA, an offshoot of Hsing Yi.  Yee Chuan Tao is Yi Quan?  I don't think so.

Mike


----------



## Sifu Mike

Peace! The system is Yee Chuan Tao (One Fist Way) not Yi Chuan that means Intellectual Fist. The reason why YCT is not well known is that I am the last surviving teacher of the system due to a little thing called the Chinese Communist Party. If you know anything about the history of China you know that the Party killed and exiled thousands of artist for not conforming to the Party's ideas. My Sifu's son was one of the unlucky ones and was killed. That is why I was taught to take his place. It is a very long story of how a 80 year old Chinese martial art master got hooked up with a Irish/Mexican Amercan I am sorry that more people don't know of my art. If I am a "BS" artist I must be a very good one! I have worked around some of the best martial artists in the world and they seem to have no problem with me. If you say like who? Eric Lee, Phil Tan, Kam Yuen Dougles Wong, Ark Y. Wong, Jeff Imada, Danny Inasonto, Ed Parker, Chuck Norris, Gene Labell, Bob Wall, James Lew, Al Liong, Mo Chow just to name a few. I have never clamed to be a master of 23 arts. If you look at my web page I never refer to myself as master. I love the the Chinese martial arts, they have kept me alive and have made me a better person. I feel very blessed to have learned what I have learned, it is real and just because it is not one of the the more well known arts does not mean that it does not have strong roots. For me, I like being different, not like everyone else. Peace to all who doubt, for they are seekers of the truth.


----------



## RHD

Sifu Mike said:
			
		

> Peace! The system is Yee Chuan Tao (One Fist Way) not Yi Chuan that means Intellectual Fist. The reason why YCT is not well known is that I am the last surviving teacher of the system due to a little thing called the Chinese Communist Party. If you know anything about the history of China you know that the Party killed and exiled thousands of artist for not conforming to the Party's ideas. My Sifu's son was one of the unlucky ones and was killed. That is why I was taught to take his place. It is a very long story of how a 80 year old Chinese martial art master got hooked up with a Irish/Mexican Amercan I am sorry that more people don't know of my art. If I am a "BS" artist I must be a very good one! I have worked around some of the best martial artists in the world and they seem to have no problem with me. If you say like who? Eric Lee, Phil Tan, Kam Yuen Dougles Wong, Ark Y. Wong, Jeff Imada, Danny Inasonto, Ed Parker, Chuck Norris, Gene Labell, Bob Wall, James Lew, Al Liong, Mo Chow just to name a few. I have never clamed to be a master of 23 arts. If you look at my web page I never refer to myself as master. I love the the Chinese martial arts, they have kept me alive and have made me a better person. I feel very blessed to have learned what I have learned, it is real and just because it is not one of the the more well known arts does not mean that it does not have strong roots. For me, I like being different, not like everyone else. Peace to all who doubt, for they are seekers of the truth.




Cool, how about those no holds barred underground fights you engaged in what must have been your teen years?  Could you tell us more about them?  Like names, places, dates, etc...
The whole "commies killed my lineage" story is very convenient.  Are you saying that there are absolutely NO other practitioners of Yee Chuan Tao?  I've asked around with some fairly knowledgeable people...None of them have ever heard of this system.  
Names of famous people do not mean much.  No doubt you've had some exposure to good martial arts...your website infers much.  Anyway, you must be a supremely talented martial artist to have mastered it in your childhood.

Mike

Mike


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD - All I can really tell you is that you should go and train with Sifu Vendrell and feel the difference. I would be honored if I was called a friend of his. I would be honored to be called a student. Defense? I offer you facts, an honest window into my life in the arts.  

*"Anyway, you must be a supremely talented martial artist to have mastered it in your childhood." *

... Children have a grasp of language at a very young age due to neurological conditions that promote FAST learning. Adults put in the same situation as children could not be expected to learn as fast. 

... if you were to combine the learning ability of a child with a competent master who had something real to teach, the result would be a teenager with ability that would far superseed an adult who has put in the same amount of training time later in life. 

... a good example is any of the Machado or Gracie brothers who have been saturated from childhood with mat work. It's simply another language. 

All I can say at this point is just be honest and seek truth. If you love the arts the right teachers will be in your path, it's not a question of having a certificate on the wall, it's a matter of truth. Romantic? Yes. I prefer to live my life that way, it keeps me healthy. 

Good training to you,

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon


----------



## Sifu Mike

RHD your Sifu must be very ashamed of your bad manners. That's if you even have a sifu? You speak of things you know nothing about. That comment you made about my teacher son was uncalled for. He died for what he believed in, freedom. The martial arts have been part of my life for almost 50 years and I most likely started chinese boxing before you were born. 

About my streetfighting days, who cares? That was along time ago. I am a man of peace now and could care less what some punk thinks or doesn't think of me. I only wrote back for my students. To them it matters.

Yee Chuan Tao is a family base system and was pasted down from one teacher to one student at a time for over 3000 years. We are Taoist in origin not Buddhist. The Buddhist sold out that's why Wu Shu is still around. If you did a little more studying and a lot less talking you would know there were thousand of systems of boxing before the "Commies" conveniently killed them off. 

This will be my last word on the subject *Stop* talking about me or my art with such disrespect. If you have anything else to say come to Hawaii like a man and say it to my face. Its pretty easy to talk big on the internet. If you wish to truly learn about what I do ask question that pertain to the art it self. Look with a child's eye. May you find the truth, for all your questions. 

Peace
Sifu Michael Vendrell


----------



## RHD

Sifu Mike said:
			
		

> RHD your Sifu must be very ashamed of your bad manners. That's if you even have a sifu? You speak of things you know nothing about. That comment you made about my teacher son was uncalled for. He died for what he believed in, freedom. The martial arts have been part of my life for almost 50 years and I most likely started chinese boxing before you were born.
> 
> About my streetfighting days, who cares? That was along time ago. I am a man of peace now and could care less what some punk thinks or doesn't think of me. I only wrote back for my students. To them it matters.
> 
> Yee Chuan Tao is a family base system and was pasted down from one teacher to one student at a time for over 3000 years. We are Taoist in origin not Buddhist. The Buddhist sold out that's why Wu Shu is still around. If you did a little more studying and a lot less talking you would know there were thousand of systems of boxing before the "Commies" conveniently killed them off.
> 
> This will be my last word on the subject *Stop* talking about me or my art with such disrespect. If you have anything else to say come to Hawaii like a man and say it to my face. Its pretty easy to talk big on the internet. If you wish to truly learn about what I do ask question that pertain to the art it self. Look with a child's eye. May you find the truth, for all your questions.
> 
> Peace
> Sifu Michael Vendrell




Bad Manners?  Maybe.  My sifu isn't the topic.
You however, are the one who's website boasts of "underground no holds barred cage matches".  When you make public claims like that, you should be prepared to back them up.

Buddhists sold out to the communists?  Oh boy, can of worms.  Talk about rude.  
Look at what you're saying...Yee Chuan Tao is 300 years old,  yet no one has ever heard of it.  Must've beeen one of those "secret" systems.  

If I have the opportunity to go to Hawaii, I 'll be sure to stop buy.  My question to you is this:

Am I just some punk talking big on the internet, or am I asking legitimate questions based on the information provided by your website and students?
Don't present things as public information if you're not willing or able to discuss them.

So about Yee Chuan Tao, how many emptyhand and weapon forms are there? Which Taoist enclaves was it primarily practiced at?  Huashan?  Ermei?
Is there any other resource besides yourself that one can learn more about this art?  Tell us more about the testing process you underwent to become the grandmaster of the style.

Mike


----------



## 7starmantis

Sifu Mike, I can understand your frustration with having so many questions asked of you, but there is really no reason to become so defensive and even challenging. You stated in your first post that 





			
				Sifu Mike said:
			
		

> Peace to those who doubt, for they are seekers of the truth


 And now your getting angry towards those who are asking legitimate questions. I too have some legit questions to ask and I am hoping you won't get so defensive and angry at my questions as well. If you read another's post as rude in inconsiderate, don't do the same thing and become rude yourself. 

I for one am glad to see you on the boards, I'm interested in hearing about YCT and its origins. As I understand it there are no forms or sets in YCT? Is that correct? So it is more along the lines of a fighting philosophy such as JKD? I'm also very interested in the 9 Psalms Praying Mantis you guys teach as I am a mantis practitioner myself. Does it also have no forms or sets? Do you guys work on stances alot? Do you practice chi sau at all? How do you guys start "sparring" or fighting? These are questions I'm interested in hearing the answer to for both YCT and the mantis system you guys teach. As far as the underground fighting, if its not important why list it on your website? Since it is listed and evidently such a major part of your martial arts career, I would love to hear about it as well.


7sm


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> Bad Manners?  Maybe.  My sifu isn't the topic.
> You however, are the one who's website boasts of "underground no holds barred cage matches".  When you make public claims like that, you should be prepared to back them up.



You know... when people are driving in traffic, they do and say things they probably wouldn't do face to face, say for instance... in the supermarket... the internet is a lot like that. Your initial questions / comments on the illigitimacy of the system (from your first post on this thread) were:

1. what does the name yee chuan tao mean
2. the videos of the 'forms' appear tweaked
3. there is no one else 'teaching' the 'system'
4. there is no clear visable 'root' to stances and footwork

Your intention is clear now as time has passed... now you have changed your argument to try and dismiss details of Vendrell's life. 

Hey bro, I mean if your interested in the system your interested right? But your not interested at all I think, you just seem to be afraid that there might be some people out there that are practicing 'traditional' chinese art that doesn't fit into the box you've been trying to put them in since 1990. Your not really taking time to communicate with any of us, your engaging in deconstructive argument. 



			
				rhd said:
			
		

> Look at what you're saying...Yee Chuan Tao is 300 years old,  yet no one has ever heard of it.  Must've beeen one of those "secret" systems.



Actually I believe Sifu Vendrell said it's 3000 years old. Pretty tall order ehh? Almost like Ripleys belieive it or not! There are plenty of closed door schools still around, they arn't just reserved for secret societies of 'triads' like in the comic books. The dissapointing thing for me is that really, the master / disciple relationship predates most organized 'clubs'. Oral tradition is a very powerful form of transmitting information. I don't believe that Vendrell is claiming Yee Chuan Tao is a secret system. But maybe you are being sarcastic, if you would stop that it would be easier to communicate with you clearly. It's hard to discern sarcasm on the internet, and sarcasm is one of those things that is used sparringly face to face. The internet does have it's limits bro. Be nice. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Am I just some punk talking big on the internet, or am I asking legitimate questions based on the information provided by your website and students?
> Don't present things as public information if you're not willing or able to discuss them.
> 
> So about Yee Chuan Tao, how many emptyhand and weapon forms are there? Which Taoist enclaves was it primarily practiced at?  Huashan?  Ermei?
> Is there any other resource besides yourself that one can learn more about this art?  Tell us more about the testing process you underwent to become the grandmaster of the style.
> 
> Mike



Mike - you didn't read my response to you previously, you must have skipped over it. Yee Chuan Tao is formless. There are no set forms.

Also take into concideration there are no tones on the internet, I know you know this. Sarcasm is hard to discern. 

I hope this is helpful to you in some way

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon


----------



## RHD

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> You know... when people are driving in traffic, they do and say things they probably wouldn't do face to face, say for instance... in the supermarket... the internet is a lot like that. Your initial questions / comments on the illigitimacy of the system (from your first post on this thread) were:
> 
> 1. what does the name yee chuan tao mean
> 2. the videos of the 'forms' appear tweaked
> 3. there is no one else 'teaching' the 'system'
> 4. there is no clear visable 'root' to stances and footwork
> 
> Your intention is clear now as time has passed... now you have changed your argument to try and dismiss details of Vendrell's life.
> 
> Hey bro, I mean if your interested in the system your interested right? But your not interested at all I think, you just seem to be afraid that there might be some people out there that are practicing 'traditional' chinese art that doesn't fit into the box you've been trying to put them in since 1990. Your not really taking time to communicate with any of us, your engaging in deconstructive argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I believe Sifu Vendrell said it's 3000 years old. Pretty tall order ehh? Almost like Ripleys belieive it or not! There are plenty of closed door schools still around, they arn't just reserved for secret societies of 'triads' like in the comic books. The dissapointing thing for me is that really, the master / disciple relationship predates most organized 'clubs'. Oral tradition is a very powerful form of transmitting information. I don't believe that Vendrell is claiming Yee Chuan Tao is a secret system. But maybe you are being sarcastic, if you would stop that it would be easier to communicate with you clearly. It's hard to discern sarcasm on the internet, and sarcasm is one of those things that is used sparringly face to face. The internet does have it's limits bro. Be nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike - you didn't read my response to you previously, you must have skipped over it. Yee Chuan Tao is formless. There are no set forms.
> 
> Also take into concideration there are no tones on the internet, I know you know this. Sarcasm is hard to discern.
> 
> I hope this is helpful to you in some way
> 
> Dave Copeland
> Portland, Oregon



My initial comments and questions stand.  The video clip on the website is of a form...now the system is formless.  I'm attempting to find out the reality behind the claims.  If somone publically claims to have fought in underground cage matches in thier teens, and uses this as a "selling point" for thier validity as an instructor, they better damn well be able to prove it...otherwise it fall intothe category of B.S.  
I'm not dismissing parts of Mr. Vendrell's life.  These are questions and comments based upon what information is available:  a short biography, some remarks from students, and a few video clips.  Too me, with what experience I have, the Yee Chuan Tao system sounds made up.  The history in the biography sounds made up or at the least quite exaggerated.  There's a lot of big holes in the story, and I'm very surprised that in 2004 their are still systems that no one's heard of.  All of these things are usually signs of fraud.  If its a Taoist art that's 3000 years old, it should have more of a documented history than what's given.  What is the link to other Taoist arts? No one seems to want to answer anything.

Deconstructive?  How about damaging to CMA?  Big claims, unverifiable history, and now no forms.  So as a kid, he just learned weapons with no prearranged training patterns?  What about the mysterious reindeer form mentioned by aNadia?  Older than Tai Chi?  Oldest martial art, blah blah blah.
Give us all a break.  And please...stop trying to play the "higher" ground routine.  The questions and comments come from what's been presented.  Have you done any research into the background of Yee chuan tao?  Or do you take it all at face value?  The role of the student is to study and ask quetions, not blindly follow.  Consider me a student of CMA's in general.

Mike


----------



## tshadowchaser

MOD WARNING

Gentlemen Please keep the discussion POLITE and RESPECTFUL.
 RHD please read the threads on Fraud busting and comply with what is posted there. They have answered some of the questions.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sifu Mike  welcome to the forum. You have entered into a "hot " thread and we thank you for joining us and answering some of the questions asked. I know that others including 7*Mantis have some questions. Most of us ask for the gain of knowledge not to belittle anyone. I hope you enjoy your stay here at Martialtalk. Please feel free to ask and answer questions and to start threads on subjects you feel you would like to explore.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
tshadowchaser
Sheldon Bedell  MT MOD


----------



## RHD

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> MOD WARNING
> 
> Gentlemen Please keep the discussion POLITE and RESPECTFUL.
> RHD please read the threads on Fraud busting and comply with what is posted there. They have answered some of the questions.
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Sifu Mike  welcome to the forum. You have entered into a "hot " thread and we thank you for joining us and answering some of the questions asked. I know that others including 7*Mantis have some questions. Most of us ask for the gain of knowledge not to belittle anyone. I hope you enjoy your stay here at Martialtalk. Please feel free to ask and answer questions and to start threads on subjects you feel you would like to explore.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> tshadowchaser
> Sheldon Bedell  MT MOD



No problem tshadowchaser...I'll drop the thread.

Mike


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> My initial comments and questions stand.  The video clip on the website is of a form...now the system is formless.



Allow me to clarify. Formless form is movement that is not rehersed or memorized. What you saw Sifu Mike do was spontaneous movement in response to an imaginary fight made up on the spot. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> I'm attempting to find out the reality behind the claims.  If somone publically claims to have fought in underground cage matches in thier teens, and uses this as a "selling point" for thier validity as an instructor, they better damn well be able to prove it...otherwise it fall intothe category of B.S.



The only way for him to prove something like that to you would be for you to square off with him and prove it. how else could you prove street fighting? That's a choice all artists can sense when they approach a teacher. We're all looking for answers we can FEEL right? Yet somehow we don't all go around fighting each other, you should just be able to tell, then learn. You can learn from everyone this way, but it's a lot more amplified with practitioners that are a couple generations ahead of you and then THEY have studied with people a couple generations ahead of them! that puts you in contact with real historical knowledge of 4 generations within a basic, teacher-student natural relationship. That just doesn't exist without oral tradition. 

Lets move on though, cage fighting is a more 'personal' issue of believe between you and sifu mike, I'd rather talk about what you are defining 'traditional chinese martial art' as. 

As a student of chinest martial are "in general", you probably already know that there seems to be a common 'goal' in the arts right? What is the goal? 

To play music with others. We can listen to the music we like, but that doesn't make you a musician. On another level, a recital pianist is no jazz player. Memorizing poetry is not writing it. The search for reality in the 'forms' of the art beg to be questioned by those practicing.  The historical evidence that all true chinese martial art is isolated to the popular lineages highlighted by family lineage charts is errored. The philosophy of kung fu came from india, but there is history that says taoists developed arts independant of that lineage and independant (and predating) the three treasures (tai chi ba gua xing yi). The treasures are to recent to account for all lineages in 3000 years of taoist oral tradition. What is it about those darn mystic traditions that seem to breed alternative Ways of thinking? .... 

Why are all the legends and tails of old monks and hermits, why is philosophy and knowledge associated with mastery? It's funny that all those old lineage charts always go back to a single founder, i wonder what made the founders special... is there a connective thread between the founders? We could never know because we'd have to travel in time...  Nah it's just how 'family trees' works. And there is something about geneology that just kinda grounds a person in their trust that they are searching for truth in the right direction. It's easy to trust written history, it seems the Anglo culture began to distrust word of mouth long ago. Winners of wars write history. The rest is B.S. Forget about travel, it's worthless. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> I'm not dismissing parts of Mr. Vendrell's life.  These are questions and comments based upon what information is available:  a short biography, some remarks from students, and a few video clips.  Too me, with what experience I have, the Yee Chuan Tao system sounds made up.  The history in the biography sounds made up or at the least quite exaggerated.  There's a lot of big holes in the story, and I'm very surprised that in 2004 their are still systems that no one's heard of.  All of these things are usually signs of fraud.  If its a Taoist art that's 3000 years old, it should have more of a documented history than what's given.  What is the link to other Taoist arts? No one seems to want to answer anything.



Basically you'd actually have to trust he wasn't lying, and we don't do that today. It's very difficult because our perceptions of the people around us are suspicious. But you know if you called him up, he would want to talk to you about kung fu, cuz he's a kung fu master. The system embodies Taoist principles. True, you are basing your assumptions on the limited perception bandwidth of the internet... so lets expand a bit.... Taoists traditionally passed on knowledge thru master disciple relationships based in oral tradition. There are still oral traditions occuring today in places where 'the grid' hasn't touches yet. But nomads and tribes and all other 'primitive' people groups will soon be overtaken by the 'new economic order' of the world, so anyways lets move on.... 

One thing about Taoist principles is a sense of constant innovation based on personal experience and context. Natural relationships of growth. If passing on a 'form' means that the "system" of the originator is preserved, yet those learning it can not embody the princples that the form teaches, then what has been 'preserved'? Nothing. The form looses it's meaning. If the founder can't get students to have their own realizations he doesn't transmit his art. You can memorize poetry but that doesn't mean you can write. To speak your own shakespear is to transcend form. Poetry comes from the heart. The traditional master disciple relationship is significant. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> ] Deconstructive?  How about damaging to CMA?  Big claims, unverifiable history, and now no forms.  So as a kid, he just learned weapons with no prearranged training patterns?  What about the mysterious reindeer form mentioned by aNadia?  Older than Tai Chi?  Oldest martial art, blah blah blah.



Big Claims? I'm trying to use the internet to it's fullest in communicating with you, but what the pursuit of Art in general has to communicate you can't some up in words. All I can say is Vendrell is a good tour guide. But i'm driving my own boat. Just like you. I we should all train with as many people as we can, to seek and reach thru our own movement rather then simply replicating others, we are all unique. Yet the process of realization is constant. 

Damaging to CMA? Ouch. Let's examine that one more clearly.... 

I don't think that teaching an art that embodies taoist principles is damaging to the chinese arts. It would be damaging to associations founded around exploiting the natural master disciple relationship. Perhaps it would damage people making money off reassuring westerners that what they are learning is 'authentic'. Simple the ability to discern kinesthetic experience is very powerful. To FEEL what it is we;re looking for! Without discernment I suppose it's just easier to relie on lineage charts, and family name associations. 

Shouldn't we be looking for the common truths behind the arts. That all the variables lead into a singularity, and the only way to get there is to learn the underlying language? So I wonder what this language is.  

What is the truth of martial art? Us. Humans. The art of movement of the human body. Relationship. Style is secondary to the core of what movement is. If you look hard enough, the core the lays benieth the style of any 'master' is very similar. 

You say that I am playing a higher ground... thanks for the compliment? I'm just being myself. I love martial art. I can talk about it all day long! Read what Bruce Lee, and Ueshiba have said about 'form' and 'formlessness'. They are much higher then me. They both had much to say on form and formlessness. 

A little more on form and formlessness. i think once a form is learned, there must be a transitional period between learning the form, and embodying the form to make it your own. To let it teach you something about movement. Once you learn... is it still a form anymore? 

Once you understand a jab, cross, hook and uppercut is that it? How do you make conversations with these things? Transitional awareness. The working together of the whole, a relationship of stillness to motion. 

How do other arts embody the same principles as this? What is the connective thread that links movement of all styles? Yee Chuan Tao is an art that seeks the truth of movement, not style. Style exists as an embodiment of personality once your art is your own. Animal styles? Different tools for different tasks. The myriad of animals partake in the same creation. They are not all the same, but if you look closely, you see the same geometry connects them all to the web of creation. The geometry of human form connects all martial style together. It's not hard to see, it's very natural. Observing animals is an important aspect of kung fu! Hey that sounds taoist. Weird. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Give us all a break.



Ok. Break time. I LOVE martial art. In fact. I love ART. You see ART to me is the meaning of martial art. Which is love manifest in expression. If we were only 'martialists'.... and then there were 'artists'... well that would be a different world. But me, I'm a 'martial artist'. To me that is a lot bigger then just learning how to beat people up, which although it's fun to dissapoint peoples violent aspirations, doesn't really promote peace in and of itself.  Ok, I'm done with break time. <wink/sarcasm>



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> And please...stop trying to play the "higher" ground routine.



I like to put a lot of thought into what I put out on the 'internet' for people to read. If we really want to know each other we shouldn't be afraid to share our hearts. I believe that we write is important, it's language, a part of the puzzle for us to put together. Yee Chuan Tao is a unique art that I have happened to cross paths with. I'm not trying to sell you anything bro. We're actually brothers in so far as we're both artists looking for truth. I take the time to write all this because I love sharing martial art. No doubt countless people will read this outside of the context of it being delivered to RHD. The internet is awesome! keep the internet non-corprate controlled!

Judgement is judgement. Regardless of style or art. Judgement is a false  reflection confused by ego awareness. I could judge you based on the line of arts you've studied, to think I know something about your movement based on what tools, ranges and direction those styles you have have transmitted to you. But that wuld only be an ego assumption. Not a real relationship with you.  

In fact we are dealing with a language. A language of movement and expression. We are communicating with it on both a social... and personal level. My judgement without physical presense will not be able to reflect on your personality... that's a big deal! With judgement I don't really know you. I do not know your LOVE of movement. Where you are able to manifest energy, that is a product of your enthusiasm. Movement that occurs from within. That's the importance of good teachers, spotting areas of love and bringing them out. Just as much as it's important to strengthen the weak, amplifying enthusiasm brings a love that translates into real skill. 

It is not violence that feeds true skill, it's love which breeds enthusiasm for the work. Anger simply attempts to quench spontaneous creativity in expression. The ability to yeild to neutrality ceases with anger. Sounds taoist. A creative approach is formless in that it does not cling to habits unsuited for the task at hand. Sounds taoist. 

Knowing the myriad of expressions nature reflects, the artist is free to respond from the most neutral of positions possible, internal and external. Shock absober and whip built into one. 

Compare the master of movement to a master swimmer. the swimmer knowing all his strokes could be tossed about the currents yet work freely between his strokes to actually move WITH the currents. (sounds pretty taoist ehh? - don't worry I'm a Christian too!)

We're dealing with a language of movement and everyone has a unique dialect. Sure you can say it's just the effects of body type on any specific style, and we're genetically predispositioned to just automatically go there like the conditioned robots that we are... that martial art is conditioned reflexes that are just meant for killing during fight or flight. That the whole 'highest martial art is healing' is bogus nonsense. But where is the magic in that? Where is that real peace and healing that love brings? It's not there. The real skill thru understanding natural relationship isn't there. That's pretty taoist huh...



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> The questions and comments come from what's been presented.  Have you done any research into the background of Yee chuan tao?  Or do you take it all at face value?  The role of the student is to study and ask quetions, not blindly follow.  Consider me a student of CMA's in general.



Yes I hope the depth of this message constitutes reassurance that I love to research movement arts thru direct physical contact with other artists. In this way the substance of 'masters' and 'lineages' can be experienced in a directly experiential way for the seeker. I just can't be the judge until I feel, then I know. I don't trust much I can't experience. Books and hear say is nice, but I need cold hard facts to back up claims. Thus my reason for traveling to hawaii to study yee chuan tao from sifu mike vendrell. 

Honestly, the questions and comments seem to me a product of overreliance on information technology to affirm self-interest in the art your currently studying. I think in seeking face to face training with as many different masters as possible you have the rare oppotunity to constantly look for the common connective thread between true masters. The more limited your contact with masters, the less opporunity you have to look for it. It doesn't matter what style, just what you feel and the connections that are made during the process of discovery in natural master disciple relationships. 

We are all striving for realizations that stick. Realizations that take on kinesthetic significance. We live in a time that we can take advantage of modern technology to travel the globe and trade information...  yet words remain abstractions to the actual experience of good push-hands. Poetry in motion.

Cooperative movement and yeilding can only increase awareness, endless misapplied force will only increase bad habits. Sound pacifist? That's cuz Yee Chuan is taoist. Taoism is a form of philosophy that uses observation of natural relationship as a guide to understanding internal and cosmic relationships. 

Perhaps martial art is simplly a discovery process of something inside of us that is already apart of us? Sounds more like religion, but  Modern media has produced some odd perceptions of what strength and power are. I believe to detriment of the martial artist in search of the realities behind the language that he is learning to speak. 

The mind of the artist that can not see between the lines... can he move between the lines? Poetic higher ground? You can't fight with poetry can you? Can you? Unless of course, the phonetic source, is a hermetic course... in self discovery... but to some simply synthetic, a pathetic drum to some a discoursive arrangement of magnetic aesthetics... or possibly poetic arrangements of an energetic alphabet. A puzzle for the mind... this language we speak. Expressed in so many ways we say the same things over and over, and if we're lucky when we die we arn't saying the same things we learned from our parents.

In closing, it's important for everyong to step out of the box of form once it's learned. The air is fresh and your missing valuable time you could be standing outside with your arms playing in the wind, breathing the fresh air of the season.

Kindest Regards and good training to you,

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon

PS - you gotta do kung fu in a strong wind, it's the best. Elemental spirals correcting posture from honest fatigue.


----------



## Ninway J

Interesting.

So in regard to forms, YCT does seem to have the same philosophy as JKD.  What about when it comes to doing forms at competitions?  Do you just make up the forms prior to the competition, or is it an impromptu form right when you hit the floor at the competition?  After the competition, I guess the form is never recalled ever again?


----------



## Sifu Mike

Great question. I for one do not like competition it only breeds contempt.  &#8220;He who does not compete has no competitors.&#8221; But some of my students like to do so anyway so what I do is using the concepts that align with the students and their chosen weapon, (that includes the body) and we create a form made up of techniques and movements customized just for them. 

When I do demos or exhibitions I always free form, it's much more fun and alive. 

 Sifu Mike


----------



## Ninway J

Grappling Mandala mentioned lots of philosophical observations, or truths even, in his last post.  I am reminded of Bruce Lee's saying regarding martial arts in that unless humans have more than 2 arms and 2 legs, then we will never have a different kind of martial art.

YCT, like JKD, seems to encourage finding your individual way of fighting.  JKD does not believe that training in forms is the way.  YCT, similarly, does not believe that training in SET forms is the way, however impromptu forms are okay to perform.  Hence, the "formless form."

There seems to be two different types of martial artists.  The first being traditional, in that they prefer to keep the techniques, training, forms, and philosophy the same as it was hundreds or thousands of years ago.  Then theres the non-traditional, of course, who prefers to keep "what works" and discard "what doesn't" work for the individual.  JKD and other MMA fit into this category.

YCT seems to straddle both categories in that it claims to be 3000 years old, but has a non-traditional approach to fighting.  How much of what was created in the art of YCT 3000 years ago is still being taught today?  And then the same question could also be asked of other traditional martial arts.  How much of what was created in the art of *a certain traditional martial art**a certain number of years ago* is still being taught today?  I think most, if not all, traditional martial arts evolve in some way.

What makes a martial art "legit?"  For most people nowdays, a legit martial art must have a verifiable history and lineage, among other things, on record.  If people see a certain martial art as not legit, does it mean it is not effective in a combat or street-fighting situation, or even spiritually?  Probably not.  YCT does not have a verifiable history or lineage, which means it could not be true, but doesn't mean that it isn't true.  It would be up to the individual to take up a martial art like this, or not.

I think people in the CMA community are resentful of YCT, it's instructors and practitioners, because they(CMArtists) have a preconceived idea of what a CMA should be like.  They don't see YCT as being in the CMA box, so to them it must not be a true CMA.  With this in mind, what then would make YCT a CMA?  Maybe the Taoist principles?  Maybe the use of traditional Chinese weapons?  Maybe the use of animal fighting techniques so characteristic of CMA?  Maybe that Sifu Mike was trained by a Chinese person?

I was once told a long time ago that NO martial art has ever been created.  There is no such thing as a new technique, new weapon, new form, new meditation, etc.  Everything has actually been here from the beginning, and we as human beings have just found out things through discovery and realization.

I also like how Pesilat put it in one of his posts regarding the "pool."

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=181114&postcount=7


----------



## Sifu Mike

YCT is not a traditional martial art. For by saying it is traditional is to say that each person that does the art looks like every other person who does the art. Thats what it takes to keep a tradition alive, and for some people that is a good thing.
I like to look at YCT as a classical martial art instead. By learning concept instead of set moves a student can learn what works for them best and then build on that. 
If you were to learn any other art form say, like painting. You would learn first to draw then how to make thing look 3D through shading and you would keep building your concept base untill you could get to use paints and brushes to paint oil paintings and so on. The goal in that art form is to paint an original work of art that transfers the feeling of the artist to viewer.

It is much easier to learn and teach the pre-set forms of the traditional martial arts, its like painting by number. YCT is a creative art form and to the best of my knownledge has always been taught this way. One of of my favorite sayings is "You can't step on the same river twice" no two students of the art look alike. This is how it was taught to me, and it has always proven effective. 

Sifu Mike


----------



## chee

I only compete because I like competing. It is the only way I get to perform and tell others about Yee Chuan Tao. I believe it also builds character strength in younger students. Of course they should never be _made_ to participate. It is however, something I believe every student should have to face at least once in their life. Facing or doing something that is challenging to them, facing their fears then coming to terms with perhaps not winning but doing their best is the real reward. It's not all about winning.


----------



## chee

The Chinese written characters for Yee Chuan Tao literally translates as "One Fist Way" and can also mean "The First Martial Way". Chi Gung is embodied as a part of this system. In earlier postings, there were questions regarding the "legitimacy" of Yee Chung Tao. Just because most CMA practitioners, even Chinese, have not heard of it means nothing. If you ask an elderly CMA practitioner who is at least seventies of age they may have heard of it. Many Chinese "_Gar_" (means family) style arts were lost during the Communist Cultural Revolution Years. All persons of professional or martial background were killed or those that could, went underground. Many fled the country to Taiwan (my birthplace). There are many, many artifacts, records lost (destroyed) during this time. Even the written word in China were simplified due to lost of professional educators. Who can teach the masses on a language that consist of thousands of characters? In view of all this, it is not inconceivable that Yee Chuan Tao became an undocumented art. (It is not "lost" since we are now discussing it) It was first created by Taoists as a means to protect themselves. Taoism is a word that today is misinterpreted with a religious connotation. Unlike Shaolin, Yee Chuan Tao is not based on a religion. There have also been several times in which Chi Gung was put underground by Taoists, when it reached the point when it could become a cult; this action can attest to the seriousness and down to earth nature of Taoist. Furthermore, Chi Gung was banned several times in Chinese history, the last one during the Cultural Revolution: it represented one of the "old" things to be eliminated. Nevertheless, during the mid '50s, the same Chinese government had chosen Chi Gung, along with Tai Chi, as official methods for prevention and treatment of many illnesses: Chi Gung could be practiced at home and was also inexpensive. In later years the Chinese government declared the "officially approved" Chi Gung systems, in the attempt to control its diffusion. 

There are hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of martial arts systems. Can a handful of martial artists here name all the names of the martial arts systems in the world? Can a handful of martial artists here in this thread determine the "legitimacy" of an ancient art form when they cannot even tell me how many existing Chinese dialects there are in China? Have the modern day Chinese Martial Artists become so arrogant that they think they can determine a "legitimacy" of an art they don't understand and have never experienced for themselves? I hope not for the sake of martial arts! You cannot _judge _a system by how many forms it has, or how it is rooted in stances by looking at an online video of a flowing, moving form that is alive. If I was in a fight, I certainly would not root long but for the amount of time needed to redirected my opponent's force by changing into another stance. As far as lineage goes, it is important in traditional standards in a an established traditional art like Wing Chun or Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, etc. It shows how one's martial training background may be true to the original method of the founder. Even then, I have seen many school's forms looking very different from another school's form even though it's the same form name. Does that mean one school is not as good or is wrong in their teaching? No, it is the interpretation of the teacher (Sifu, Sensi, etc). That is the nature of evolution of the arts. What is now "traditional" was not traditional in the beginning. Someone had to use methods or forms to develop a standard way to teach, for ease of teaching. The Taoist uses no forms nor do they believed in writings (since forms create limits), any "forms" you see now are the evolution of what was then a set of movements practiced over and over again passed on by students.

_Quoting RHD: I'm sure that Mr. Vendrell also has very little to do with anyone else in the Chinese Martial arts community. Why would that be I wonder...If he does, it would be very nice to hear from them. I won;t hold my breath though, because I truly believe that if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck....its probably a duck_

Do you think that your thread merits the attention of the Chinese Community? Traditional Chinese are (normally) very composed, inward people - speak little, pay little attention to trivial matters, try to mind their own business, try not to offend if possible. I am not traditional (I guess) having been in America for more than half my life. I grew up in Hong Kong and did Gung Fu with my grandfather informally, in who knows what (or cares) style. It was not like what is being taught now. Style name was not important to him. He just did what he was taught. This was when Bruce Lee was still living in Hong Kong and fighting his own "traditional" vs his own style battles with the Chinese practitioners there. When I first met Grandmaster Mike Vendrell, I was also skeptical at first but after seeing him teach and do Yee Chuan Tao Gung Fu, I was reminded of how the art looked and feel when I was training with my Grandfather. I knew the art was for real and after checking into his background, I too (as Grappling Mandala did), came to find that this man is no ordinary man. He has done so much that no ordinary guy could have done  but that is Michael Vendrell. 

Even though Sigung Vendrell tries to stay out of the limelight, Kung Fu Magazine (April 1993 issue) wrote an article on on him. David Carradine has many books published in which he has mentioned Vendrell. I quote from _The Spirit of Shaolin, _by David Carradine in which he spoke of Vendrell:

"...Throughout the movie I studied with Mike informally. His coaching was almost always in sparring. He would match his style with mine, work at my level of proficiency, then gradually lift me to higher levels, changing styles rapidly and talking all the while --coaxing, teasing, threatening, praising, probing, story telling, philosophizing...
...He has healing hands and is adept at joint manipulation, reflexology, massage and other curative therapies, such as a passive skeletal alignment similar to the "Alexander technique", and a "gong" therapy in which differently pitched massive bronze bells are placed around the subject's body and struck alternately in patterns and cycles designed to clear blockage and align the chi. The amazing thing about all this is that is works.* If this is hard to believe, you've got Mike exactly; hard to believe*! "

Gene LeBelle speaks very highly of Vendrell. He even named a move "The Vendrell Vice" after him. If you are a serious martial artist (or are old enough to remember), you should have heard of Gene LeBelle. He is famous in the Judo world on a highly documented, publicized event when he took on a challenge from the Boxing World back in the days of "whose martial art is the best," a boxer against a martial artist. It was after this that Gene became famous doing movies - as some of your postings imply you are too young to know. If you are a serious martial artist, you should be exposed to other arts and know of some other arts besides your own. After all, if you ever had to go against someone with another martial background, then you would have an advantage if you know how their system works since it will determine how they would fight you. 

There is a saying, "you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time." 
Michael Vendrell did all these things and more. So he was in show business. Do you think he can fool all of Hollywood? For 30 years? I think not! He was one of the most sought-after stuntman and stunt coordinator in Hollywood and holds many credits in major movie releases. Being a stuntman is not like being an actor. You actually have to _do _the moves and make the actors look good. There is no faking it. Grandmaster Vendrell has trained many famous actors, don't you think they would have checked him out first?? Famous personalities have a way of seeking out the best for personal training. Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee is in show business, could they be frauds? Bruce Lee created his own system and also trained many famous actors. Is that considered as traditional CMA?

Grandmaster Michael Vendrell is very well-respected among the Chinese communities in the US as well as Canada. You cannot see in the video clip on his website the parts that were cut out. I have seen the original video, it is a large celebration of a Canadian Chinese community in Toronto which he was invited to do a demonstration. He was introduced (in Chinese) as an "accomplished Gung Fu Grandmaster". (BTW: he never insists on being called a grandmaster (_Sigung_) but just be referred to as Sifu. I insist on calling him one because that is truly what he is, a _Grandmaster_. There is no shame in being called a _Sigong_ when one has _demonstrated _profound knowledge and skill, living up to the name as he has done.

Some of the postings seems to be stuck on the _one line, single paragraph_ mentioned on his website of being " the undefeated survivor of "underground" no holds barred matches". If you were living in Chinatown L.A. in the 70's (ask any Chinese who is now 60 or older and was living there during that time period), then you would know these matches exist, are underground, and the price of loosing may be death or being crippled for life (_so you think it's only in the movies, huh?_). The only rule is to win. Chinese underground society are not nice people. Today's so-called "No-holds barred" matches are a cake-walk, no comparison to this kind of thing. I believe it _is _important to mention the "cage" fighting bit because it shows that Yee Chung Tao Gung Fu does work for Grandmaster Vendrell. If it has kept him alive in something as brutal as that, it will work for anyone, that it is an effective system of self-defense. _aNadia_ is correct, most his matches lasted about 15 seconds. Also note that it read _survivor_, that didn't mean that he never got hurt or was untouched by the opponent. 

Yee Chuan Tao is a classical art not a traditional art. It was developed by the Taoist; there is no single "founder," but was developed by groups of people. Taoism is the most ancient system of knowledge on earth, probably even preceding the traditions of Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt, India and Greece. It began over 6000 years ago and Chi Gung (and Nei Gung) was a fundamental part of this system. The Taoists began as scientists of nature. In the beginning, it was not a religion. Being a Taoist created art form, it is often that serious students of Yee Chung Tao become quite philosophical since the Taoist puts everything into philosophical ideas. If you know Chinese culture, then you would know that there are not many Taoist writings except for the Lao Tzu "book". Taoists do not put things down in writing.

Read _Tao Te Ching_, written by Lao Tzu who put in writing its philosophical principles of living (and legend has it when threatened) in order to be allowed out of the country into voluntary exile. Though it is a legend how the book came to be, it is an accurate description of the way in which true teaching happens. He who knows doesn't talk, but words are no hindrance for him. He uses them as he would garden tools. It is a book of 81 brief paragraphs, it is today the most translated text in the world after the Bible. 

Grappling Mandala shared some excellent insight into this ancient art. Please read his postings if you are truly interested in YCT. It appeared from these postings that some of you "skeptics" are not really trying to seek the truth but merely to dispute or criticize. There is no box you can put a living art form into. Yee Chuan Tao is such a living self-defense art form. I also spent 23 adult years formally training in other art forms such as (ITF) Tae Kwon Do, Judo and (American) Karate, in which I have been honored with my 3rd degree. Notice I stated _formal _training. I wouldn't want some of your more "skeptical" martial artists to think I was doing it on my own - without lineage or proof... I have an open mind on all martial arts. My love is Gung Fu however. 

I would suggest that it would be wise for all CMA to learn a little more about the Chinese culture if you are to do their arts and advise others about what the Chinese do or do not do. Tradition is a necessary thing. Those that require it, embrace it, those who despise it, rebel against it. Both traditional and modern have advantages. Classical on the other hand is harder to grasp since it is based on a foundation of concepts and proven methods. It allows creativity and adaptability. For some people, it is easier to follow set rules then it is to discover the limits. The limits in these terms are only defined by the individual involved. In this modern day world, people live in a box (house is a good example) every principal behaves in an expected manner. When we get sick, we go to a doctor who earns a degree that certifies his knowledge of human physical make-up, how it behaves and how certain medication can affect our ailments. In ancient China and even in today's China, people place their trust in a classically trained doctor who may hold no certification but has had a lifetime of knowledge passed on to them by their family or Sifu. People experienced for themselves that herbs and treatments by these _doctors _work_. _Why don't these people request a certification? Because they see and feel it working. That is worth more than any certificate in the world. A piece of paper cannot guarantee healing. What really matters is results. 

How many martial artists out there explored the healing side of the art? In ancient times (I'm only speaking about the Chinese since that is my heritage), martial artists learned not only to defend but also to heal. It goes hand-in-hand. After all, if one is to learn the killing art, shouldn't one also learn the healing art? Chi Gung is one such healing art dated back to 16th Century *BC. *There is an excellent article here about the history of Chi Gung: http://www.chigung.com/en/history_page.html

Perhaps this thread is a good thing. The system has been acknowledged by bringing it out into the open in this forum. People are now discussing it. Good or bad. It has brought some of us out who would never have posted nor taken the time to do something out of our environment. Thanks to you, all you critics, you have given us power by your critiques and disputes. *It is truly a Yee Chuan Tao concept in action*: to redirect a certain force, taking that force directed at us, over-extending the force then using the same force for our advantage. How's that for a working martial application?

I could just go on but I will spare all of you (I hear sighs of relief) more about my philosophy regarding the martial arts. I only took on this writing since I can no longer stand idly by and read posts from people who judge without merit and lack of understanding, of someone whom I deeply respect.

Seek first to understand, then to be understood...


----------



## RHD

chee said:
			
		

> The Chinese written characters for Yee Chuan Tao literally translates as "One Fist Way" and can also mean "The First Martial Way". Chi Gung is embodied as a part of this system. In earlier postings, there were questions regarding the "legitimacy" of Yee Chung Tao. Just because most CMA practitioners, even Chinese, have not heard of it means nothing. If you ask an elderly CMA practitioner who is at least seventies of age they may have heard of it. Many Chinese "_Gar_" (means family) style arts were lost during the Communist Cultural Revolution Years.
> 
> *proof for this?*
> 
> All persons of professional or martial background were killed or those that could, went underground. Many fled the country to Taiwan (my birthplace). There are many, many artifacts, records lost (destroyed) during this time. Even the written word in China were simplified due to lost of professional educators. Who can teach the masses on a language that consist of thousands of characters? In view of all this, it is not inconceivable that Yee Chuan Tao became an undocumented art. (It is not "lost" since we are now discussing it) It was first created by Taoists as a means to protect themselves.
> 
> *proof for this?*
> 
> 
> Taoism is a word that today is misinterpreted with a religious connotation. Unlike Shaolin, Yee Chuan Tao is not based on a religion. There have also been several times in which Chi Gung was put underground by Taoists, when it reached the point when it could become a cult; this action can attest to the seriousness and down to earth nature of Taoist. Furthermore, Chi Gung was banned several times in Chinese history, the last one during the Cultural Revolution: it represented one of the "old" things to be eliminated. Nevertheless, during the mid '50s, the same Chinese government had chosen Chi Gung, along with Tai Chi, as official methods for prevention and treatment of many illnesses: Chi Gung could be practiced at home and was also inexpensive. In later years the Chinese government declared the "officially approved" Chi Gung systems, in the attempt to control its diffusion.
> 
> There are hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of martial arts systems. Can a handful of martial artists here name all the names of the martial arts systems in the world? Can a handful of martial artists here in this thread determine the "legitimacy" of an ancient art form when they cannot even tell me how many existing Chinese dialects there are in China? Have the modern day Chinese Martial Artists become so arrogant that they think they can determine a "legitimacy" of an art they don't understand and have never experienced for themselves? I hope not for the sake of martial arts! You cannot _judge _a system by how many forms it has, or how it is rooted in stances by looking at an online video of a flowing, moving form that is alive.
> 
> *no, but you can get a good idea of the skill level of the practitioner...ther are telltale signs.*
> 
> 
> If I was in a fight, I certainly would not root long but for the amount of time needed to redirected my opponent's force by changing into another stance. As far as lineage goes, it is important in traditional standards in a an established traditional art like Wing Chun or Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, etc. It shows how one's martial training background may be true to the original method of the founder. Even then, I have seen many school's forms looking very different from another school's form even though it's the same form name. Does that mean one school is not as good or is wrong in their teaching? No, it is the interpretation of the teacher (Sifu, Sensi, etc). That is the nature of evolution of the arts. What is now "traditional" was not traditional in the beginning. Someone had to use methods or forms to develop a standard way to teach, for ease of teaching. The Taoist uses no forms nor do they believed in writings (since forms create limits), any "forms" you see now are the evolution of what was then a set of movements practiced over and over again passed on by students.
> 
> [B]does traditional now mean making up for competition?  Sounds like the modern performance art of wushu[/B]
> 
> _Quoting RHD: I'm sure that Mr. Vendrell also has very little to do with anyone else in the Chinese Martial arts community. Why would that be I wonder...If he does, it would be very nice to hear from them. I won;t hold my breath though, because I truly believe that if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck....its probably a duck_
> 
> Do you think that your thread merits the attention of the Chinese Community? Traditional Chinese are (normally) very composed, inward people - speak little, pay little attention to trivial matters, try to mind their own business, try not to offend if possible.
> 
> *thanks for the tip*
> 
> 
> I am not traditional (I guess) having been in America for more than half my life. I grew up in Hong Kong and did Gung Fu with my grandfather informally, in who knows what (or cares) style. It was not like what is being taught now. Style name was not important to him. He just did what he was taught. This was when Bruce Lee was still living in Hong Kong and fighting his own "traditional" vs his own style battles with the Chinese practitioners there. When I first met Grandmaster Mike Vendrell, I was also skeptical at first but after seeing him teach and do Yee Chuan Tao Gung Fu, I was reminded of how the art looked and feel when I was training with my Grandfather. I knew the art was for real and after checking into his background, I too (as Grappling Mandala did), came to find that this man is no ordinary man. He has done so much that no ordinary guy could have done  but that is Michael Vendrell.
> 
> Even though Sigung Vendrell tries to stay out of the limelight, Kung Fu Magazine (April 1993 issue) wrote an article on on him. David Carradine has many books published in which he has mentioned Vendrell. I quote from _The Spirit of Shaolin, _by David Carradine in which he spoke of Vendrell:
> 
> "...Throughout the movie I studied with Mike informally. His coaching was almost always in sparring. He would match his style with mine, work at my level of proficiency, then gradually lift me to higher levels, changing styles rapidly and talking all the while --coaxing, teasing, threatening, praising, probing, story telling, philosophizing...
> ...He has healing hands and is adept at joint manipulation, reflexology, massage and other curative therapies, such as a passive skeletal alignment similar to the "Alexander technique", and a "gong" therapy in which differently pitched massive bronze bells are placed around the subject's body and struck alternately in patterns and cycles designed to clear blockage and align the chi. The amazing thing about all this is that is works.* If this is hard to believe, you've got Mike exactly; hard to believe*! "
> 
> Gene LeBelle speaks very highly of Vendrell. He even named a move "The Vendrell Vice" after him. If you are a serious martial artist (or are old enough to remember), you should have heard of Gene LeBelle. He is famous in the Judo world on a highly documented, publicized event when he took on a challenge from the Boxing World back in the days of "whose martial art is the best," a boxer against a martial artist. It was after this that Gene became famous doing movies - as some of your postings imply you are too young to know. If you are a serious martial artist, you should be exposed to other arts and know of some other arts besides your own. After all, if you ever had to go against someone with another martial background, then you would have an advantage if you know how their system works since it will determine how they would fight you.
> 
> *Carradine, LeBelle...blah blah blah...name drop*
> 
> There is a saying, "you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time."
> Michael Vendrell did all these things and more.
> 
> *sounds like you got that one right*
> 
> 
> So he was in show business. Do you think he can fool all of Hollywood? For 30 years? I think not! He was one of the most sought-after stuntman and stunt coordinator in Hollywood and holds many credits in major movie releases. Being a stuntman is not like being an actor. You actually have to _do _the moves and make the actors look good. There is no faking it.
> 
> *what does hollywood hve to do with reality?  So you mean those fight scenes are for real?*
> 
> Grandmaster Vendrell has trained many famous actors, don't you think they would have checked him out first?? Famous personalities have a way of seeking out the best for personal training. Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee is in show business, could they be frauds? Bruce Lee created his own system and also trained many famous actors. Is that considered as traditional CMA?
> 
> *so he taught famous people...does that legitimize him?*
> 
> Grandmaster Michael Vendrell is very well-respected among the Chinese communities in the US as well as Canada.
> 
> *proof?*
> 
> You cannot see in the video clip on his website the parts that were cut out. I have seen the original video, it is a large celebration of a Canadian Chinese community in Toronto which he was invited to do a demonstration. He was introduced (in Chinese) as an "accomplished Gung Fu Grandmaster". (BTW: he never insists on being called a grandmaster
> 
> *many people are called this out of politeness*
> 
> 
> (_Sigung_) but just be referred to as Sifu. I insist on calling him one because that is truly what he is, a _Grandmaster_. There is no shame in being called a _Sigong_ when one has _demonstrated _profound knowledge and skill, living up to the name as he has done.
> 
> Some of the postings seems to be stuck on the _one line, single paragraph_ mentioned on his website of being " the undefeated survivor of "underground" no holds barred matches". If you were living in Chinatown L.A. in the 70's (ask any Chinese who is now 60 or older and was living there during that time period), then you would know these matches exist, are underground, and the price of loosing may be death or being crippled for life (_so you think it's only in the movies, huh?_). The only rule is to win. Chinese underground society are not nice people. Today's so-called "No-holds barred" matches are a cake-walk, no comparison to this kind of thing. I believe it _is _important to mention the "cage" fighting bit because it shows that Yee Chung Tao Gung Fu does work for Grandmaster Vendrell. If it has kept him alive in something as brutal as that, it will work for anyone, that it is an effective system of self-defense. _aNadia_ is correct, most his matches lasted about 15 seconds. Also note that it read _survivor_, that didn't mean that he never got hurt or was untouched by the opponent.
> 
> *well you seem to have the "inside track" on these matches, can you actually verify them?  Were you there?  Any witnesses or is this just word of mouth?*
> 
> Yee Chuan Tao is a classical art not a traditional art. It was developed by the Taoist; there is no single "founder," but was developed by groups of people.
> 
> *proof?*
> 
> Taoism is the most ancient system of knowledge on earth, probably even preceding the traditions of Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt, India and Greece. It began over 6000 years ago and Chi Gung (and Nei Gung) was a fundamental part of this system. The Taoists began as scientists of nature. In the beginning, it was not a religion. Being a Taoist created art form, it is often that serious students of Yee Chung Tao become quite philosophical since the Taoist puts everything into philosophical ideas. If you know Chinese culture, then you would know that there are not many Taoist writings except for the Lao Tzu "book". Taoists do not put things down in writing.
> 
> *thanks for the remedial history lesson...proof that Yee Chuan Tao was in existence even 300 years ago?*
> 
> Read _Tao Te Ching_, written by Lao Tzu who put in writing its philosophical principles of living (and legend has it when threatened) in order to be allowed out of the country into voluntary exile. Though it is a legend how the book came to be, it is an accurate description of the way in which true teaching happens. He who knows doesn't talk, but words are no hindrance for him. He uses them as he would garden tools. It is a book of 81 brief paragraphs, it is today the most translated text in the world after the Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> *he who claims on website should be able to back them up*
> 
> 
> Grappling Mandala shared some excellent insight into this ancient art. Please read his postings if you are truly interested in YCT. It appeared from these postings that some of you "skeptics" are not really trying to seek the truth but merely to dispute or criticize.
> 
> *Wrong.  I have asked for verification of Mr. Vendrell's fight record.  I could care less if you don't want to answer me personally, but since it's a public claim on his website he should have some concrete evidence to back this up.* \
> 
> There is no box you can put a living art form into. Yee Chuan Tao is such a living self-defense art form. I also spent 23 adult years formally training in other art forms such as (ITF) Tae Kwon Do, Judo and (American) Karate, in which I have been honored with my 3rd degree. Notice I stated _formal _training. I wouldn't want some of your more "skeptical" martial artists to think I was doing it on my own - without lineage or proof... I have an open mind on all martial arts. My love is Gung Fu however.
> 
> *good for you*
> 
> I would suggest that it would be wise for all CMA to learn a little more about the Chinese culture if you are to do their arts and advise others about what the Chinese do or do not do. Tradition is a necessary thing. Those that require it, embrace it, those who despise it, rebel against it. Both traditional and modern have advantages. Classical on the other hand is harder to grasp since it is based on a foundation of concepts and proven methods. It allows creativity and adaptability. For some people, it is easier to follow set rules then it is to discover the limits. The limits in these terms are only defined by the individual involved. In this modern day world, people live in a box (house is a good example) every principal behaves in an expected manner. When we get sick, we go to a doctor who earns a degree that certifies his knowledge of human physical make-up, how it behaves and how certain medication can affect our ailments.
> 
> *modern people like facts rather than myths*
> 
> In ancient China and even in today's China, people place their trust in a classically trained doctor who may hold no certification but has had a lifetime of knowledge passed on to them by their family or Sifu. People experienced for themselves that herbs and treatments by these _doctors _work_. _Why don't these people request a certification? Because they see and feel it working. That is worth more than any certificate in the world. A piece of paper cannot guarantee healing. What really matters is results.
> 
> *beleif is a strong factor in all folk cultural healing systems...but these aren't in question*
> 
> How many martial artists out there explored the healing side of the art? In ancient times (I'm only speaking about the Chinese since that is my heritage), martial artists learned not only to defend but also to heal. It goes hand-in-hand. After all, if one is to learn the killing art, shouldn't one also learn the healing art? Chi Gung is one such healing art dated back to 16th Century *BC. *There is an excellent article here about the history of Chi Gung: http://www.chigung.com/en/history_page.html
> 
> *what does this have to do with proving anything?[/B**]
> 
> Perhaps this thread is a good thing. The system has been acknowledged by bringing it out into the open in this forum. People are now discussing it. Good or bad. It has brought some of us out who would never have posted nor taken the time to do something out of our environment. Thanks to you, all you critics, you have given us power by your critiques and disputes. It is truly a Yee Chuan Tao concept in action: to redirect a certain force, taking that force directed at us, over-extending the force then using the same force for our advantage. How's that for a working martial application?
> 
> 
> [B]psychobabble...how about answering three simple questions":  Can you prove that Mike Vendrell learned classical weapons as a child?  Can you prove that Mike Vendrell is undefeated in his teen years in underground cage matches that lasted less than 15 seconds?  Can you prove that Yee Chuan Tao existed prior to Mike Vendrell proclaiming his grandmastery of that system?*
> 
> I could just go on but I will spare all of you (I hear sighs of relief) more about my philosophy regarding the martial arts.
> 
> *a miracle?*
> 
> I only took on this writing since I can no longer stand idly by and read posts from people who judge without merit and lack of understanding, of someone whom I deeply respect.
> 
> Seek first to understand, then to be understood...



*Just seeking the truth for the betterment of CMA's*  

Hate me if you must...but since you dragged me back into this thread...
Moderators, feel free to ban me if I'm insulting anyone or breaking any rules.

Mike


----------



## Flatlander

chee said:
			
		

> Taoism is the most ancient system of knowledge on earth, probably even preceding the traditions of Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt, India and Greece.


Nice post, but I take issue with this particular statement.  I do not believe that Taoism predates the Sumerian civilization.  Depending on how you are defining "system of knowledge", I believe the Sumerians, had they been around now, would likely disagree with you as well.


----------



## chee

Oh RHD, you're funny​ 
"If you can snatch these pebbles from my hand..."​


----------



## Ninway J

Interesting post from Chee.  Lots of things were mentioned that some other YCT students have already said.  Also, there are still no answers, proof, or resources cited for RHD's questions in his last post.  The possible answers to those questions either can't be proven, not true, or are simply not chosen to be answered for some reason.

It seems that YCT practitioners emphasize a difference between _traditional_ and _classical._  Most people don't differentiate between classical and traditional, and their respective definitions are basically the same.  Example: Bruce Lee was against the "classical mess" of _traditional_ Gong Fu.  It was also mentioned that "classical...is based on a foundation of concepts and proven methods."  Can't this also be said about all other martial arts nowdays, whether it be traditional or modern?  Perhaps it _is_ hard to explain.

It has also been mentioned, "Bruce Lee created his own system and also trained many famous actors. Is that considered as traditional CMA?"  By most peoples standards, Jeet Kune Do would not be considered a traditional Chinese
Martial Art, but instead a modern American Mixed Martial Art.  However, that's another discussion.


----------



## chee

Ninway J said:
			
		

> By most peoples standards, Jeet Kune Do would not be considered a traditional Chinese Martial Art, but instead a modern American Mixed Martial Art. However, that's another discussion.


Some JKD follwers may disagree with you there. 

I have said all I am going to say about Sigung Vendrell. Take it or leave it. Now that all of us have stated our point of views and first-hand experiences, it really makes no difference to me or him whether anyone believe us or not. I enjoy my Gung Fu, Chi Gung and Taiji and martial arts in general. I'd love to extend my knowledge by finding out about other arts. With or without lineage or proof of existance. As the saying goes, the "proof" is in the pudding. Exerience it for yourself. I have nothing to proof to anyone nor do I need approval from anyone.

Happy exploration!


----------



## Ninway J

Originally Posted by Ninway J
"By most peoples standards, Jeet Kune Do would not be considered a traditional Chinese Martial Art, but instead a modern American Mixed Martial Art. However, that's another discussion."

Originally posted by Chee
"Some JKD follwers may disagree with you there."

And I would not disagree with that!


----------



## chee

flatlander said:
			
		

> ... I take issue with this particular statement. I do not believe that Taoism predates the Sumerian civilization. Depending on how you are defining "system of knowledge", I believe the Sumerians, had they been around now, would likely disagree with you as well.


I'm sorry, I didn't make that very clear. I didn't mean to imply that the Taoist developed the only system of knowledge but the _universal explanatory principle_: All phenomena can be understood using yin-yang and the five agents: the movements of the stars, the workings of the body, the nature of foods, the qualities of music, the ethical qualities of humans, the progress of time, the operations of government, and even the nature of historical change. All things follow this order so that all things can be related to one another in some way: one can use the stars to determine what kind of policy to pursue in government, for instance. I was making the reference that Chi Gung (and Nei Gung) was a fundamental part of this system.​



I tried to research on Sumerian civilization but can't really come up with a good timeline that shows exactly what's happening between Lao-Tsu (born c. 560 BC), considered to be the "First" Taoist and the Sumerians (2900-1800 BC) except that (regarding to inventions): the Sumerians seem to have developed one of the world's first systems of monarchy and bureaucracy. And regarding writing: the early Sumerian writing was pictographic writing. Eventually, the Sumerians made their writing more efficient, and slowly converted their picture words to a short-hand consisting of wedged lines created by bending the reed against the wet clay and moving the end closest to the hand back and forth once. And thus was born a form of writing that persisted longer than any other form of writing besides Chinese: cuneiform, or "wedge-shaped" (which is what cuneiform means in Latin) writing. And regarding Science and Mathematics: The Sumerians invented calendars, which they divided into twelve months based on the cycle of the moon. The interest in measuring long periods of time led the Sumerians to develop a complicated knowledge of astronomy and the first human invention of the zodiac in order to measure yearly time. Among the inventions of the Sumerians, the most persistent and far-reaching was their invention of law. This great invention, law, would serve as the basis for the institution of law among all the Semitic peoples to follow: Babylonians, Assyrians, and, eventually, the Hebrews.


Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## Keaka o Kanaka

RHD

Even if Sifu Mike were to tell the dates and people he fought in the underground fights, what good would it do?  You wouldn't know any of the people he fought and then you would restate "where's the proof" towards the dates.  There is no way Sifu can prove it to you via internet.  

And as for the lineage...You still haven't even listed yours.  Why are you so bothered by our lack of lineage when you completely avoid the questions directed towards yours?  You're kind of just contradicting to just be contradicting now.  We have spent all the time we're willing to try and explain to you that we are what we say we are.  It's like arguing with a child:  "My Sifu can beat your sifu up" or "My Style is cooler than yours is" is kind of the scenario I see us in.  Then when we try to explain ourselves you act like a six year old with a "nuh uh" attitude, leave, and mock us outside of this forum with more child like behavior.  How can you say that we disgrace CMA when you are the one acting like this?  

There is no reason to your mockery.  Why don't you ease up a bit, and instead of bashing on us with your "I know your wrong" attitude, save up the money and come visit us.  You are more than welcome to come down and visit our school and converse with Sifu Mike and his students.  If you don't like it after meeting us, *then* you can say whatever you feel is right.


----------



## RHD

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> RHD
> 
> Even if Sifu Mike were to tell the dates and people he fought in the underground fights, what good would it do?  You wouldn't know any of the people he fought and then you would restate "where's the proof" towards the dates.  There is no way Sifu can prove it to you via internet.
> 
> And as for the lineage...You still haven't even listed yours.  Why are you so bothered by our lack of lineage when you completely avoid the questions directed towards yours?  You're kind of just contradicting to just be contradicting now.  We have spent all the time we're willing to try and explain to you that we are what we say we are.  It's like arguing with a child:  "My Sifu can beat your sifu up" or "My Style is cooler than yours is" is kind of the scenario I see us in.  Then when we try to explain ourselves you act like a six year old with a "nuh uh" attitude, leave, and mock us outside of this forum with more child like behavior.  How can you say that we disgrace CMA when you are the one acting like this?
> 
> There is no reason to your mockery.  Why don't you ease up a bit, and instead of bashing on us with your "I know your wrong" attitude, save up the money and come visit us.  You are more than welcome to come down and visit our school and converse with Sifu Mike and his students.  If you don't like it after meeting us, *then* you can say whatever you feel is right.



Keaka...
I don't have a website making public claims that I engaged in underground cage matches.  If you claim it, be prepared to back it up.

I'm not contradicting to be "contradictive".  I'm asking questions based on the information publically presented by Mr. Vendrell.

Call me childish if you will...It's an avoidance technique just like asking about my background.  And certainly I've never said anything about "beating anyone up" or "my style is cooler than yours".  Also, where am I mocking you outside of this forum?  Am I mocking you?

Mike


----------



## Riley

Let me ask you something. Why do you care? Sifu Mike Vendrell was street fighting when you were still in your Underwear running around the house pretending that you were Superman! It was along time ago. Just Let It Go Already!!!

Riley


----------



## RHD

Riley said:
			
		

> Let me ask you something. Why do you care? Sifu Mike Vendrell was street fighting when you were still in your Underwear running around the house pretending that you were Superman! It was along time ago. Just Let It Go Already!!!
> 
> Riley



snore...

I are enough about CMA's to feel very strongly that anyone making fantastic claims in order to sell thiem should be willing and able to give concrete proof.  Capiche?

Mike


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> snore...
> 
> I are enough about CMA's to feel very strongly that anyone making fantastic claims in order to sell thiem should be willing and able to give concrete proof. Capiche?
> 
> Mike


The proof you seek may not exist. No lineage charts. No 'proof' other then "claims" right? 

What then do you have to base your 'belief' on in seeking the essence any art? I mean you ARE genuinely seeking truth in martial art right? If legitimacy is based on lineage alone, then your forced to simply disregard any further interest.

But here is what I would do: 

I would... Ask other people: but you call that name dropping.

I would... Ask students: but you call that loyaty.

I would... Ask the master: but you call him a liar.

So you have two choices left in your search for truth, as the burden of proof ball falls in your court, because YOUR the one calling Michael Vendrell a liar. 

#1. Write him off as a liar and a fraud and be done with it.

#2. You should seek kinesthetic experience from Michael Vendrell himself. That means real face to face with this man your concidering to be a fake and fraud. And then and only then can you really decide for yourself. 

If your interest in martial art means that your seeking something you can genuinely FEEL, then you should be able to judge a master from a laymen. 

If the truth your seeking only exists in lineage charts and you can't really feel the different between master and novice, then theres no need to seek face to face experience I suppose, all masters are the same except for their lineage.... <sarcasm>

My opinion? Lineage is overrated, books are over rated, face to face experience is the only way to truly uncover the essence of any movement and make it your own. Learn as much as you can. Truth builds upon itself. 

Dave in Oregon


----------



## Flatlander

YUP.  I agree with Dave in Oregon.  (see now locked thread in horrors forum).


----------



## RHD

Okay, I concede.  I publically proclaim that Sifu Mike Vendrell and Yee Chuan Tao are as up front and legitimate as his publicized background.  I hope to some day travel to Hawaii and experience it for myself in person.  (hugs and handshakes all around)

In that light, how about some more friendly discussion of Yee Chuan Tao?

So, Yee Chuan Tao is formless?  How do students learn the foundational skills and basic tools of the system?  Are there any training patterns at all, or are these skills learned through some other method of transmission?  I am very curious about footwork as it tends to be a signature element of differing styles.  Is there any particular footwork patterns or concepts in Yee chuan Tao? 

Being an ancient art (3000 years old) and pre-dating Tai Chi Chuan, what influence has Yee Chuan Tao had on other Chinese martial arts?  Does this influence only extend to Taoist based systems, or is it felt in others such as buddhist, hakka, and muslim styles?  Is it necessary to study Taoist philosophy to learn YCT?

What weapons are taught in Yee Chuan Tao, and how are they taught without forms/pre-arranged training patterns?  

Mike


----------



## grappling_mandala

flatlander said:
			
		

> YUP. I agree with Dave in Oregon. (see now locked thread in horrors forum).


Hey Flatlander, I read your reply... I also have a thought on that thread.

The funny thing about the logic behind an argument for 'making up your own art' and calling yourself a 'master' of that system, is this.

What happens when your faced with another master and you don't perform at anything close to the other masters level? What does that say about the 'ligitimacy' of your art? The argument is based on subjective truth. If it was based on objective truth, any art, invented or otherwise, exists in relationship to all other art. It's kinesthetic comparison is significant, whichout which Mastery has no judge. 

I enjoy that fact that regardless of lineage or style, teacher / student relationships occur naturally as we make contact with one another. We're all brothers and sisters in the art of movement.

I enjoy your posts Flatlander, you are well spoken and organize your thought.

Dave in Oregon


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> Okay, I concede. I publically proclaim that Sifu Mike Vendrell and Yee Chuan Tao are as up front and legitimate as his publicized background. I hope to some day travel to Hawaii and experience it for myself in person. (hugs and handshakes all around)
> 
> Mike


You don't need to proclaim anything about Sifu Vendrell or Yee Chuan Tao. I think I speak on behalf of all in saying that it would be nice to just talk about martial art. Life is good.

Dave


----------



## chee

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> What happens when your faced with another master and you don't perform at anything close to the other masters level? What does that say about the 'ligitimacy' of your art? The argument is based on subjective truth. If it was based on objective truth, any art, invented or otherwise, exists in relationship to all other art. It's kinesthetic comparison is significant, whichout which Mastery has no judge.


I agree 100% and it's a logical conclusion if the two masters are of equal skill.


----------



## RHD

chee said:
			
		

> I agree 100% and it's a logical conclusion if the two masters are of equal skill.



That is interesting.  Wouldn't it be something if sifu's, masters, and grandmasters from all different styles could face off and see who's who and what's what?  That'll never happen  
Too bad.

Mike


----------



## Tgace

MORTAL KOMBAT....cool.


----------



## Flatlander

RHD said:
			
		

> That is interesting. Wouldn't it be something if sifu's, masters, and grandmasters from all different styles could face off and see who's who and what's what? That'll never happen
> Too bad.
> 
> Mike


No, it probably won't.  But it would be super cool to watch.


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> That is interesting. Wouldn't it be something if sifu's, masters, and grandmasters from all different styles could face off and see who's who and what's what? That'll never happen
> Too bad.
> 
> Mike


I think it would be better then the matrix reloaded highway chase scene. BUT...

... probably never happen. It would only breed competition and division because of the effects of "entertainment" on modern public discourse. 

What kind of ESPN highlight video could you get from two masters touching hands then kindly smiling to one another after a moments reflection. Never revealing to anyone outside themselves who the 'winner' was. This is not the blood that pay per view viewers order into their reality. Violence sells. 

The first few UFC's were cool though! All the different 'styles' faced off. This is before the 'hybrid' fighters of today. Gotta love the early ones where everyone was into their own styles and lineages... and with the neglect of ONE range.... and all those "standup" fighters fell victim to a single grappler.

Dave in Oregon


----------



## Sifu Mike

Dave, you know that those early UFC fights were geared for the ground fighters. The Grace family owed all the rights to UFC in those days and they made sure who got in the cage could not beat a Grace. That's not to say they are not a great fighting family but if you fight people who just do forms and know nothing of ground fighting its a "lamb to the slaught"
When I was fighting "No Rules" ment "No Rules" no mats, no padded cage, no gloves, no time limites, no weight class and no referee. I only weighed 175 most of the guy I fought were at least 200. I had a big advantage because most people back then in the early seventies never even heard of Chinese Boxing. Most of them were just very tough guys trying to make a fast buck. I have to say I fought only a handful of what I would consider martial artist. 

Mike (RHD)

The way I teach YCT is to first teach the student to stand in the Wu Chi stance to feel and find their balance. From there I work on having them feel their partner's balance through _Pushing Hands_ and _Balistic Drills. _Next, fundamental kicks like front thrust, side thrust and hand positions like Fist, Knife,Tiger's Mouth and Dragon's Tail. It is a matter of building a strong foundation and from there I get into the animal movements. I believe that it is up to the student to decide which animal works best for them. Not many takers on the reindeer though. LOL

Sifu Mike


----------



## Thundering Mantis

Dear Kung Fu Brothers and Sisters, 

 Before I formally introduce myself as a new member of this forum, I would like to express that as your fellow kung fu brother, a fellow brother who shares a lineage with you all, I am deeply offended and saddened by reading this message string.  T

 This message string began with a legitimate question, 



			
				Ninway J said:
			
		

> http://www.unitedmartialartists.org/vendrell/
> 
> I was wondering if anyone here practices or has even heard of Yee Chuan Tao Kung Fu? Is it the same as Yee Chuan Kung Fu? The above site is the only Kung Fu school in my area, and I was wondering if it's a legit art to take up.


  and from that question others' curiosity spurned, whichforth brough out some rude remaks from a few people..... 

 I am terribly appalled

 It does not befit people of Shaolin lineage to address their peers and seniors in such rude manner with outright snide comments and a fececious undertone of prejustice.  However in all fairness I do believe that Mike [RHD] would probably not speak out in such a manner if he had the chance to meet Sigung Vendrell in person, I imagine he would address himself more politely when asking such important questions.

 I have been online since 1995 and had my share of heated discussions in the early days on other forums (besides martial arts), and I'll tell you that what I see here is typical of newslists and forums, there's alot of subtle flaming (defamation), Ignorant posting, and some outright insulting  comments on this forum.  All of which break Internet ethics, and moreover, are insulting to Shaolin Philosophy and the honor of all the warriors who came before us both living and dead.  I suggest before you reply to my post you read the whole string again, from the beginning, analyze the language, not the argument... then you will see the wrong doings in your writings.  The questions are valid, some of the answers that were posted may be vague to you but I will try to clarify things later on in this post. RHD, pay special attention to the posts on pages 5 and 6, your answers lie within some of the most amazingly articulated writings on martial arts there, (some noteworthy of the asian journal of martial arts).  

 Now before I go on, I must state an observation about internet culture... (I believe 7sm also mentioned something along the lines of this)
 Internet savvy people are generally skeptical because they are seekers of knowledge, but to be a proper seeker of knowledge in any field (let alone a martial way) one must keep an open mind and always go as close as possible to the source to find the truth,  reading articles and webpages can't always be enough. Either find out what you need to know directly from the source or look for worthy secondary material reviews from students, associations with other sifus etc.  As far as I am concerned, you all should have had your answers by doing more research and listening to what has been written by some of your peers on this forum.. If you managed to read the spectacular posts of pages 5 and 6 your questions should be answered , but just in case some of you are still looking for more documented web stuff I can offer you a few things.  

     I don't mean to pick on Mike [RHD] only, if you read back his first post was written in a more gentle inquisitive manner but as more people started jumping on the bandwagon he got to be very offensive. Although you may deny mocking people, Mike [BHD] you did single yourself out as pretty rude when expressing your frustration and anger towards Sigong Vendrell's students, I couldn't believe that you were even so disrespectful towards Sigong Vendrell himself,even over a matter of true historical fact, basically calling him a liar, being ignorant enought to say that this historical event can't be proven,  that he's using a historical event to fabricate a lie about his lineage? You are denying Sigong Vendrells right to his own memories? Or are you calling his Teacher or someone along the line of his family a liar?  Are you denying the fact that a father mourned over his son's death?  In the purest sense of logic, It doesn't matter if you don't believe Sigong Vendrell's life story, he's living it, you're not. 

 RHD, Mike, you really wrote some shameful remarks, somewhat denying history itself with your ignorant plea, for forum members to not believe someone who claims a historical event is the reasoning of the outcome of events in his own REALITY.

 Go and Rent "The secret of the warriors power -ep 1" or wait for it to rotate back on the  discovery channel.  On that documentary you'll see video footage of thousands of boxers lined up for execution upon orders of the new communist regime, including footage of their executions.  Read about the Cultural Revolution of Communist China.  It might clear up some doubts you have.

 I think some members of this forum owe the students of the Vendrell Martial Arts Centre an apology.   I believe you also owe Sifu Mike Vendrell an apology, as each of us are entitled to knowing our own memories and knowing ourselves and our experiences...  He graciously wrote his post to answer your questions and you still continued on with the badgering.  

 If you read the hawaii newspaper article in .pdf form you should also have read the Kung Fu Magazine article as well (if you want to question the credibility of the author, contact him yourself, don't do it in this thread, please, call him yourself and raise your ruckus there)...  if you read it you would know that Sigong Vendrell became a Christian at 19 and gave up the underground fight scene,  I don't think that he likes to talk about it, let alone boast about it.  This man is about love, peace and harmony but people will remember the feats of his youth and will write about it if they were in the business of writing in the mass media, (sensastionalism sells newspapers).  It is a good article though, I can see why it has raised your questions [BHD], obviously it is a fantastic claim, but you know you aren't familiar with the underground fight circuit of L.A. way back in the day, so your only way of finding out how good Sigong Vendrell is on the mat is by visiting his mat, as a student.  It's hard to tell what he's doing in the video if you're not an internal stylist.  But studying external systems for long enough time you should be able to recognize proper combat techniques when you feel them, however your distance from Hawaii might be far... so you shouldn't make judgements of Sigung Vendrell's ability by stating that he looks non grounded etc. because you lack the eye for an internal style, and you've never seen footage of him applying his technique... so if you're so intrigued with his fighting ability, either take the word of people that have experienced his teachings or go and check out him and his students for yourself.

 Now this post from earlier today, the one with single phrase replys written in large bold fonts, the internet equivalent of yelling at a person.. very sad... and you've admitted that you are rude, but you then made an excuse for yourself by saying you hate being politically correct.

  I too hate being PC,  I'm probably a tad bit too liberal for the likings of most conservative people, but I respect the values of honour and tradition.  
   you have to understand, that we are priviliged people to be studying under a true lineage, and we should hold up the standards of respect, dignity and humility passed down from our Sifus into all our interactions with all people.  without respecting others and respecting ourselves we'd just be meatheads and thugs.

 As for any of you who still continue to doubt the legitimacy of the Sifus at the Welcome Mat, after reading my entire post, if you still harbor doubt, your only way of legitimizing answers to your questions is to seek the truth for your self by going to Hawaii and seeing for yourself.  And leave it at that.

 For now I will just quote some of the rude remarks, it would be too long of a post if i did them all, it's up to you to read the past posts.



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> No reply yet:
> Must be looking up an encyclopeida of martial arts to figure out which one's to list...
> Mike


 
_You wouldn't consider this a rude mockery?_




			
				InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Did anybody check out the "hoop" form? What the heck is that thing? It looks like the Klingon sword from "Star Trek".


 
_This snide one comes from a place of ignorance, the Klingon sword is based on an existing chinese weapon called Heaven and Earth Blade, check it out
_
http://www.gungfu.com/pics_general/pics_weapons/weapon_heaven_and_earth_blade.jpg

_The hoop does indeed resemble this weapon in some way, but the curvature of the hoop makes it something  entirely different in its self.  Anyone who's played extensively with a staff couldn't even imagine the avenues of movement (and combat application - if you wish) that would be explored through this unique shape, it would be hard to know unless you had a chance to get one in your hands.  
_


			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Yee Chuan Tao=red
> Taekwondo=green
> Mantis=yellow
> Judo=blue
> Kendo=purple
> 5 animal forms=pink
> Jiu Jitsu=orange
> Chin Na=white
> Tai Chi=black
> 
> Mix them all togehter and you get Brown, the color of mud. Again I have to question whether your sifu is really a master of all these systems. This is only 9 out of a supposed 23. Sorry folks, I think you're buying into the hype. It's a strange quality about student-instructor loyalty: Students will believe almost anything thier instructor tells them. I know this from personal experience. The truth is out there and I think as students you should have the right to know it.
> Mike


 
_This is obnoxious and rude_.  _It does not befit someone who's been studying Traditional Chinese Martial Arts for 14 yrs.  All People in Shaolin lineage learn spiritual values within their training, Shaolin philosophy is always taught to disciples, it's a strong part of our lineage.  Would your Sifu be proud of such arrogant behaviour?

_

 QUOTE=7starmantis]I want to do this objectivly and not offend.

 There were a few things that struck me as odd.
 "Students learn concepts, and train their ballistic reflexes in order to create an art suited to their individual needs."
 As far as kung fu goes, that is very strongly against the norm for CMA systems.


_Not true, almost all kung fu system's I've seen use ballistic drills to teach the 4 basic principles of avoid, redirect, strike, set-up 
 You should know this as a mantis practitioner that there are many 2 person drills within the diverse mantis systems.  All of these exercises are considered ballistic drills, if it's training your reflexes, it's a ballistic drill._


 "I watched the mantis video. The only thing I can say about it is that he lacks a rooted stance in any of the forms. There seems to be a lack of application in the techniques. I see alot of flashy pretty stuff, but its high unbalanced stances. He is very smooth but his kicks and punches are not extended as to give more fluidity. None of the kicks had application behind them. I don't think he has no skill, it just doesn't look to be applicable as far as fighting. Very pretty, and nicly performed, but I see no application in it.

 Let me say, I'm no expert. I have studied CMA since I was a kid, and mantis for the last few years. I'm in the lineage of masters such as Raymond Fogg, Henry Chung, Lee Kam Wing, Chan Poi, Chu Leun. Having sat under most of them for seminars and such, I can see a huge difference in thier forms from what I saw on the video. Again though, my expertise is in 7* mainly and I'm not extremely familure with Tai Mantis, especially his system he created.

 7sm[/QUOTE] 

_7sm, a mantis brother, I do feel offended, and I'll pass on the message my Sifu is offended aswell, I believe you might be talking out of ignorance here.  You have been polite yes, but you jumped the gun too soon - fuelling the fire some further.

_At this point, you brought the argument along to question the integrity of Sifu Rob Moses as well, thus bringing an attack upon the integrity of both teachers of the school.  Although you treaded softly you should have done more research.  On the official website, You can see Sifu Rob doing Bumbo (traditional mantis set), see for yourself, and yes he moves in the typical fluid way of a tai-mantis sifu, with his own personality shining through.  

http://www.unitedmartialartists.org/vendrell//Rob_Moses_Bumbo.wmv

 Here is his lineage, from the mantis cave, an incredible website containing a collection of international mantis sifu's lineage charts, all legit.

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/rmoses.htm

 If you're a mantis practitioner, you'll appreciate this website because it should have your lineage listed, if it doesn't you should contact the admin to begin the verification procedures (copy of certificate, & traditional photo of you by your sifu's side. he then contacts your assoc. headquarters)  You will see that Rob Moses is listed in some form of quantifiable evidence that would satisfy the curiosities of some people involved in this discussion, and if you look carefully, then think a bout timelines, you will see that he was amongst the generation of the first group of westerners in north america to receive the full transmission of the Tai-Mantis system.


 Now after watching the traditional form, with it as a reference point you should be able to see that he is indeed grounded, powerful in his motions, you should be able to see all the applications in the tai mantis manner of moving.  You should be able to see that he moves like an accomplished kung fu sifu.  

 Now look back at the other clip you saw before, and remember he's in free form, you should be able to recognize the grounded motions of both Sigung Vendrell and Moses, there are moments where they appear as if they are just dancing with their hands, indeed they are, that in itself is an aspect of Chinese Martial Arts, it's closed door,  it's evident in today's folklore, but most westerners can't see that the cute dance that chinese folklorists do has applications in joint locking and various self defence methods.  Within the free form there are elements of animals yes, and you can clearly see that Sigong Rob Moses' 9 Palms Mantis video is inspired by mantis movements.   And if you had an understanding of the internal arts you would see that ALL the movements' applications are evident.  

 Furthermore In order to be a Mantis Sifu (in any branch of mantis), one must not only learn the entire system but also be able to demonstrate it's application with in an efficient and effortless manner.  So to question the credibility of Sifu Rob Moses is also to Question the credibility of all those who came before him that handed down the certification of a mantis sifu...  Go read up on the Tai Mantis association, there's lots of info on the web.  Before making judgements do your research.  By questioning Sifu Moses' integrity, you are in effect questioning the integrity of All those in the lineage of Tai Mantis before him and after him.


 It should be our duty to do all our research thoroughly before writing here on this board, because jumping to conclusions as some did after viewing one website and laid comments within pages 1-3 only serves to decrease the intellectual capacity of our discussions as martial artists.


http://www.shaolinlomita.com/links.htm

 Now That is  a list of links from one of the clubs in the Tai Chi Mantis association (tai mantis), in it you will find a link to Sigong Vendrell and Moses, if you explore some of the other links, you will find a deep, rich tapestry of a community of martial artists that stem from one community to another across north america and the globe.  I am but one voice amonst thousands that know and can attest to the teachings of these two men.  If you don't want to believe what I say then look at the martial arts community that these men are associated with.   You would have to wonder now, why does a Tai Mantis Sifu (sifu since 1986) who has all the backing of a traditional association, move on to some esoteric ideas and associate himself with a teacher that doesn't fit your traditional classification?... Could it be that traditionally from the time of Wong Long, each branch head of the mantis style was requested to keep the system as a living system, meaning growing and adapting, gathering more and more applicable knowledge?  could it be that the two teachers have alot in common in their understanding of the application of the arts....???  Could it be that they both wish to teach people to learn how to move with free form application? Meaning for others have the ability to adapt and change as it would be the only way to survive battle?

 Remember people, kung fu is a martial art, and traditionally, the measure of one's kung fu  skills is what preserved his life during battle, life or death battle.  Not a sparring match.  A battle where you have to be ready in all eight directions, and familiarity with movement in all possible directions in no pre set order makes sense.  Would any of you race into battle, facing 2000 armed men prepared to do your form?  it's like reciting the dictionary when you were supposed to make a speech.  I love to do my traditional forms, but I do believe that training my reflexes and ability to move on a whim are more condusive to a proper fighting technique, you mantis guys should know, if you look into all of the combat arts, all of them, chinese or not, if they've been succefully used in modern combat, you will see the similarities in  logic and martial philosophy. .. you will see  what I and others here have tried to explain.... again, look it up for yourself.  

 now, back on the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts thing, look back at the homepage of Sifu Manuel 


http://www.shaolinlomita.com/

 While you're at it, go to the homepage and check out the photos, you'll see that Sifu Manuel is very serious and very accomplished kung fu sifu.

 on page 2 of the photos, there is this particular picture,
http://www.shaolinlomita.com/images/LRGhochowgroup.jpg

 This picture was taken and an annual Banquet for all the patriarchs within the Toronto Chinese community, many Sifus and Sigungs are continually present at these events.  It's pretty much a formal social event, with lion dance and performers from traditional kung fu schools and one wushu school (mostly southern stylists, my school has been invited on a few occasions) however there are other traditions that are involved at these banquets.. once every few years, especially when someone is being "made a sifu", _in traditional kung fu, to be made a sifu, all you have to know is that your sifu has told you that you have made it, true,_  yet amongst the community, the word is spread officially within associations and organizations. The easiest and most jovial way is announcements at banquets.  [It is one of these banquets that was brought up in question, and the integrity of the people of at these banquets was insulted by BHD, by saying that they were merely flattering him by adressing him as Sigong).  There in the picture you see Sifus Manuel, Rob Moses, Sigung Mo Chow, Mike Chow and Sigung Vendrell.
 Why would Sigung Vendrell be hanging around these people, at such an event, only because he's in the films?  Jean Claude Van Damme and Stephen Seagal have been filming in toronto many times, They haven't been to one of these banquets, neither has jackie chan.  Sigung Vendrell was involved with the community during the time that he lived in Toronto while working on filming the TV show, in his spare time he taught classes on and off set, many accomplished sifu's, instructors, stuntmen were among his students, they were exasperrant about his chin-na and methods of YCT training, (My Sifu being one of them).  Word around the kung fu community in Toronto spread quick and many CMA enthusiasts came to meet and learn from both Vendrell and Moses.

 What I'm trying to get to is that to be called Sigung, by your peers, let alone be accepted by a room with over 100 Chinese Sifus in their 70's-90's who would have not dared to teach westerners at one time, is no joke. Especially to the Traditional Chinese Kung Fu Sifus here in Toronto,  even Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malasia and probably to many other Traditionalists out there,  To be acknowledged as Sigung amongst those people, at that particular banquet, is not MERE flattery. 

 It is absolutely no joke and it is rude of you RHD to make a joke of it.  You are insulting an entire culture.

 Here where I live, in Toronto, Canada, there is a very rich cultural heritage of chinese immigrants.  They have been here since they first came to build our railroads, from the east coast to the west, here on the east side many settled in this country's largest town.  Our Chinatown is somewhat comparable to the size and history of LA's and SF's settlements.  Interaction between between these communities has long been existent, interactions with westerners has been more recent relative to the establishment of these communities and thus the kung fu associations themselves.

 These communities know and preserve their own history better than any western establishment of historical record, and historically they have been very secretive about their doings, especially with teaching kung fu to westerners.   To be an acknowleged Sigong among members of  Chinese Martial Arts communities in 2 Large Metropolitan Cities of North America should be enough to suffice that Yee Chuan Tao is legit.  

 Yes It is our duty as shaolin practitioners to preserve the truth, and if we don't believe what entire communities of Shaolin Elders accept, then who are we to say so?  

 So if you can't fathom this culture, if it is foreign to you, then you must just take my word for it's self, the acknowledgement from a room with over 100 elderly shaolin masters (who make up a large body of the Canadain Chinese Martial Arts Assoc.) shouldn't be taken lightly.  If you still question the Legitimacy of Sigong Vendrell or his Sifu, you could  go on a Trek to Toronto or California and try to speak to some of the old Masters and ask them what they remember of him, maybe they'd be a good source foryou could trust?  But seriously, I don't know if any of you have the desire or means to travel to LA let alone canada to bother people that you don't know about some petty squabble as far as they would be concerned, it really shouldn't have to go that far.  But any of you are truly curious about concepts that might seem foreign to you, curious to see for yourself, it would be best to take a trip to the Island, if you don't like what you experience at the Welcome Mat then you can still really have a good vacation on the Island.  It's a win-win situation.


 That is the end of my objective analysis of this matter...  administrators, moderators, do what you will but I believe that this thread has the potential go somewhere positive, I think that RHD Mike would be better off if he had his questions or curiosities satisfied rather than be booted off for writing before thinking his words through.  RHD Mike, please mind the manner of the tone in your writings, sarcasm, judgementalism, calling people fraudulent, all of this is wrong, in law it's called libel. try to remain civil and open yourself up to new possibilities, this is a large world we live in, even though the internet makes it seem much smaller than it is, there are still many people out there that have been exploring ideas that haven't crossed our paths yet.  

 I read most of this thread on saturday night, it really upset me, after only  3 hours of sleep had to be off for the regular weekly big outdoor training day, usually a 4-6 hour session depending on winter or not 

  regardless, I had to collect my thoughts for 2 days before replying, I've done my best to remain calm after reading the most recent posts , so I too apologize if any of my comments seem upsetting to anyone out there.

 I'll tell you honestly, I wouldn't have replied to this forum if it hadn't have continued to be hostile as of this morning.  I read on late Sunday night and thought that the intelligent responses on pages 5 and 6 would have quelled the argument into what it should be, a discussion.  Until this night, I hadn't posted on a message board for over 5 years because i was tired of the nature of the this (disjointed) communication, it is too easy for people to "get the wrong message", too many people causing arguments and swaying the communication into different tangents and loops. 

 It took me much too long to complete this message, if some parts seem repetitive or disjointed please let me know so I could try to be more clear.

 I felt that I had to take an objective view of what was going on here in order for some of you to remember the original question in this thread, and to help you remember that it is in our nature as Shaolin practioners seek to knowledge and be humble in this journey. 

 It seems that although this is a forum, people's personal testimonies to their own experiences are not considered true unless a trusted member of the board would speak on it's behalf, extinguishing any new source of information, and that's why I didn't want to subjectify too much of my own experiences and my journey in CMA to the scrutiny of hostile people involved in this deconstructive arguement.   But now, to satisfy anyone's curiosity I'll let you know more about me, what style I practice, all the expected stuff

_I can forsee the troublemakers stating arguments of my bias as I explain my own personal testimony and lineage.

_If you haven't already figured it out, I'm a Tai-Mantis practitioner from Toronto, Canada.  I'm just a student of this system, My Sifu, Rupert Harvey is a certified Tai-Mantis Instructor, you can check out his lineage on the Mantis Cave website, http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/taiji.htm

 As I mentioned briefly before, my Sifu was one of the CMA practitioners at a 
 school in Toronto (Sigong Mo Chow's school) where he was introduced to Sigongs Vendrell and Moses, with Sigong Mo Chow's permission my Sifu began learning Tai-Mantis Kung Fu and Yee Chuan Tao from each respective teacher.  Shortly thereafter he began working on the TV series (kung fu: legend...) with his Sifus.  Between takes all the martial artists/stuntmen on set would gather and practice, after a days shoot some would continue training, taking the opportunity to fulfill the accellerated 8 hours a day, every day, seven days a week that is neccessary to complete most mantis systems in such a short time (someone already posted this earlier, it's true, it normally would take about 15 yrs to complete most mantis systems, but if one literally lives to train for about 7-8 years they can do it.)  My Sifu was the only one among the group in Toronto that succeed in completing the system at the accellerated rate in which they pursued their training.  And remember that Sigong Vendrell was by their side, I am told that Sigong Vendrell was like a sponge when Sigong Moses would teach a form, he would only have to see it once and he would remember ever step.  I don't think Sigong Vendrell is certified as a Tai-Mantis Instructor, but I can imagine that In over 20 years of friendship with Sifu Moses he must have seen every set and touched hands with him many times.  And as anyone who practices sticky hands (chi sao) knows, it's a major part of the transmission of the knowledge of the art's application in close and mid-range closing techniques.  Now I personally have not met Sigong Vendrell, I only know him in spirit through his teachings that he passed down to my own Sifu, but I did meet my Sigong Rob Moses, and he has said that two of his greatest kung fu teachers have been his Sifu Dr. Kam Yuen, and Mike Vendrell.  Mike Vendrell taught my Sifu the principles of Yee Chuan Tao, with these principles in mind, one can employ various exercises for students to quickly learn the physics of human body mechanics, developing a feel of the transferrence of power from the ground up, a feel for inertia, making gravity your tool, developing a feel of your opponents, and yes believe it or not developing a feel for chi, as it has been mentioned before Chi-Gong is rooted within the practice of Yee Chuan Tao.  Now I don't want to get into the old argument of internal and external, but I definitely reccomend the benefits of internal study for all those who want to maintian practicing martial arts for the entire duration of their lifetime.  Along with the principles of Yee Chuan Tao,  a complete system of Chin-Na was taught to my sifu... 108techniques of dislodging the bone (not sure about the total number 108, I'm only proficient in 54 of them thus far), muscle separation, sealing the breath sealing the blood, cavity press, 36 pts.  Now remember, My Sifu is a Certified Tai-Mantis Instructor, he doesn't carry a certification in YCT but he has incorporated the full chin-na system with Tai-mantis (and all mantis practitioners would agree that these two systems are complementary of each other) as well as with the principles of Yee Chuan Tao, our particular style of Mantis has taoist influence (tai chi mantis) with emphasis on grounding, maintaining an aligned structure and generating power from center, and the taoist philosophies of Yee Chuan serve as a great part in our learning of the nature of our movements in both our traditional mantis forms and free-form practice.   

 so it was kind of funny for me to see Sigong Vendrell's credibility as a grappler come into question earlier on in the string.

 I've been training under Sifu Harvey for only six years, In this short time I have had the chance to touch hands with many practitioners from other CMA systems,  and any one who practices free-form sticky hands knows that you can learn alot from each other and also ascertain the level of your opponent depending on how much they want to show you, as you can put it "school you" (this exercise is not to be confused with pak-sao or chi-sao played with set patterns).  Of the different stylists that I had the chance to meet outside of my own school, in the past year I've had memorable experiences playing with 7 star mantis brothers, tai chi practitioners, a White Eyebrow (Pak Mei) stylist, all from which I learned a lesson or two on improving my kung fu.  A few years ago our class attended a seminar with 7 star Sifu John Funk, we found that it was a good experience to see the similarities of our styles, to know that a school in the other side of the country, from a different lineage still holds the principles that make the mantis system an effectively applicable system.  Our kung fu school has been occasionally visited by a couple of  John Funk's Sifu's, when in town, one in particular trained with us over this winter.  They expressed that the things that they enjoyed practicing the most were the variety of ballistic drills,  free sparring and sticky-hands with students.  They loved to touch hands with Sifu and expressed how even some of the students played a very challenging game.   And as we all know, touching hands with one's own sifu is the best way to get a direct transmission of the art.  (you have to feel the art as it is applied)

 I was lucky to have a chance to touch hands with my Sigong Rob Moses a couple summers ago at a 9 Psalm Mantis seminar here in canada, what an experience, it's hard to put into words.  It's hard enough to articulate my exeperiences in touching hands with my own teacher let alone the man that taught him!   There were four schools at this seminar 2 CMA (my school and another 7 star school) and we learned the principles of 9 Psalm Mantis, the free-form mantis system that Sigong Moses created, it's similar to Yee Chuan Tao, in that anyone at any level of experience and understanding in the martial arts can benefit from it, yet as a mantis practitioner one can really gain a sense of 9 Psalms as Sigong Moses has categorised 9 fundamental aspects of motion found in the mantis system as building blocks for Ideas to begin your free-form movements.  I'm afraid my explanation may be too vague, .....
 but i can say one of the many benefits that I've experienced from practicing 9 psalm mantis is the ability flow into some techniques that I might have learned in one particlar set-form and immediately flow into a technique from another and so on so forth ..... you can imagine that instead of seeing your opponent in the set place of the form that you are used to, the opponents are suddenly shifting from their orthodox position and appearing wherever you see them to appear and you have to quickly adapt to a technique that is familiar to your situation in time and space.

 This is as much as I can say at this moment as I have been here, writing for  over 12 hours and I must sleep, I hope that I have cleared some things up with peoples concerns on this forum... if anything  I hope that I have pointed  some of you in the right direction  for seeking out the answers for yourselves.

 Peace

 Selim


----------



## RHD

For those who've asked for my background: post #37.  e-mail me for any more details.

For Thundering Mantis: read post #40 for the reason behind my passion regarding this entire thread.  So sorry you're that upset.  Thundering is a good choice of names.  I really don't care if you think I'm bad or rude...I don't believe in being PC.  PC is a comforting shield behind which much B.S. can hide.  Try some deep breathing and relaxation techniques if you have trouble sleeping.

Sifu Mike, push hands and drills are good methods.  I think this is aninteresting method of instruction, but how much foundation do the students recieve before the push hands and so forth?  Also, do they learn things like chin na and do any type of conditioning before they touch hands?  Also, any comments on footwork?

In the fights that you engaged in...and thank you for finally discussing them...were they against trained fighters or primarily against those who had not recieved formal instruction?  Also, the eimeline of your background puts your fighting experiences in your teens.  This is very atypical.

Dave, two masters smiling and touching hands sounds like you've read "the Chronicles of the Tao" by Deng Ming-Dao too many times

Mike


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## chee

Thank you Thundering Mantis, for the well-written post. I hope we can meet someday. I would love to meet you and invite you to come to Hawaii and meet some of the students here. We can learn a lot from you too.


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## RHD

Okay all you YCT and 9Psalm supporters, allow me to step up on the soapbox one more time...

In my relatively short but illustrious career in martial arts I have met no less than 3 people who've claimed to have personally studied with Chuck Norris, but couldn't recall the name of the system he teaches or knew that it came from Tang Soo Do.  I met one fellow locally who claimed to teach Spider style having learnt it from an old Chinese guy who died shortly after...It turned out he only had a green belt in TKD.  I met one guy in El Paso, TX who claimed to have learned his kung fu from a group of Shaolin monks who fled china for politcal asylum in Mexico in the 1940's.  His kung fu strangely mimiced several popular video instruction series available through Panther video, and when I touched hands with him it was clear he had little idea of how his forms worked.  I've met countless veterans who all claimed to be special forces, snipers, or other "real dangerous" types, but turned out to have been far less.  Even recently in the news there was a fellow hired by the US Navy to beef up thier security procedures, but turned out to have falsified his own military records and at least for while even fooled the Pentagon.  

So, I am of the school of thought that big claims should be proven rather than taken on faith.  I also do not believe in titles like master, sifu, or grandmaster as this means next to nothing in terms of revealing one's skill.  How many times have I met "masters" of martial arts who clearly couldn't fight thier way out of a paper bag with a pair of safety scissors?  Plenty.  CMA's are as often represented poorly as they are with skill and knowledge.
I will always call it like I see it in regards to titles, skill, and big claims.  I will always stand firm in my convictions because I've been mislead int he past and know others personally that continue to be.
On that line of thought, I appreciate the offers to experience YCT first hand and I hope to be able to make that happen at a future date.  

Chinese Martial Arts are full of myths, mysticism, and exaggeration.  When I read a background story like Mike Vendrell's, my first and strongest reaction isn't "oh wow, this guy's a grandmaster!".  It's more like "yeah right!".  I will never accept a martial art's master's own word on how good they are or what they know because its all very subjective and relevant to the personal experience of who thier audience is.  I can appreciate the strong outcry of students and friends who are pissed off at me, but let's face it...The YCT story is fantastic.  It sounds like a movie script.  The references to Hollywood and actors are strangely ironic.  Somone tell me what makes a person a Grandmaster?  I once had a Cantonese friend tell me that in Hong Kong people will call a taxi driver "sifu".  Titles mean what?

Now, regarding the cage match thing...I think that the whole teenage cage match story is extremely fishy.  I'm glad that Mr. Vendrell has at least said a few things about them finally.  The problem here is that few people have ever seen real CMA's in action, and unfortunately they have with few exceptions been poorly or under represented in the next best thing which is MMA or UFC style competition.  I think that anyone making those kinds of claims in today's "reality" based martial arts world had better be willing and able to provide some healthy proof to back them up.  I'm surprised that the Bullshido types haven't zeroed in on this sooner and paid a visit to Mr. Vendrell's school.  Maybe the Gene LeBell black belt would come in handy then LOL.  Also, clearly this is a selling point for Mr. Vendrell's business on his website...so why the hesitance to discuss?  If it sells, it should be open to scrutiny.  Otherwise it sounds like snake oil.  I have a phone book in a cupboard nearby that easily lists half a dozen TKD schools where every head instructor has World Champion or Military Champion or some kind of Championb title to thier credit.  I've looked this up in every major US city I've been to and its the same in each one...Lots of champions, no way to verify it.

Then we have the whole philosphy-mystical-chinese master-practicing forms in the wind elemental forces-thingy.  
Dave, it blows my mind to hear you talk about the two masters duelling by touching hands together.  Maybe in your world this happens, but if it happens, it's way past due in public recognition.  This sounds like more mythology/faith/fantasy based CMA that really makes other CMA practitioners look stupid and sound hokey.  In fact, this kind of silliness plagues all martial arts.  If these kinds of masters exist, let them come forward and prove their skills to the general public.  Otherwise, it needs to remain in the category of interesting ideas for a fiction novel.

So there you have it.  Rude, disrespectful, shameful, sickening, whatever you like to call me.   If you can't see the reasons behind my angst then maybe I'm not the only one interpreting kung fu from behind my own little box.

Mike


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## Sifu Mike

Mike (RHD) I can see your point completely, coming from where you&#8217;ve been and whom you&#8217;ve met. I have been in the arts a long time and I can't tell you how many "World champs" I've met. I did not write those words on my web page to impress anyone it&#8217;s a very small Bio of what I have done in my life. If I were to write my whole life story down I am afraid that no one would ever believe me. I have lived a very full and exciting life and have done more then most people have done in ten life times. It was not that you did not believe me that offends, it's the attitude and the words you used that my students were insulted by. For me I am just a teacher I love to teach I have been teaching for most of my life and I have had the opportunity to teach some very fine martial artists. You're right in that a title is just that a title, it&#8217;s a person ability that makes a master and one does not refer to one self as a master, they allow others to call them that. I am amazed at the outcry of my students to defend my good name.  People wrote in to voice their opinion because they know that I am who I am. One more thing, my mom works at the school and read part of the thread. She even wanted to write in and put in her two cents but I told her that it was not necessary. I hope we can move on from here and I will do my best to relate what I do to all who cares on this forum.

Michael Vendrell


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## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> Okay all you YCT and 9Psalm supporters, allow me to step up on the soapbox one more time...
> 
> Then we have the whole philosphy-mystical-chinese master-practicing forms in the wind elemental forces-thingy.
> Dave, it blows my mind to hear you talk about the two masters duelling by touching hands together.  Maybe in your world this happens, but if it happens, it's way past due in public recognition.  This sounds like more mythology/faith/fantasy based CMA that really makes other CMA practitioners look stupid and sound hokey.  In fact, this kind of silliness plagues all martial arts.  If these kinds of masters exist, let them come forward and prove their skills to the general public.  Otherwise, it needs to remain in the category of interesting ideas for a fiction novel.



I suppose I&#8217;m a bit of an idealist. I read a lot. I&#8217;m searching for the truth of this infatuation with conflict and resolution humans have on a global social level. I hate television. I love mythology.

I think it&#8217;s way past due as well that we bring these things out on not just a public level but a GLOBAL level! I think the public needs to recognize that when people are honest with each other, there&#8217;s not really a need to prove anything to each other. We can just train together and increase each others skill, creative influences, and moments of inspiration and revelation. It&#8217;s the moments that &#8216;make sense&#8217; inside of extremes, that become a part of us. The martial artist strives for &#8220;A-HA!&#8221; moments inside a mirror of physical extremes. 

	Mike, please don&#8217;t take my idealism as a disconnection from &#8216;reality&#8217; based martial art. Yes I am interested in art, and life, and creativity, but the reality (aka truth) in martial art is &#8220;does it work&#8221;. We all know that. I personally think TCMA&#8217;s public image is currently stained because of this. A lot of schools have locked the arts inside of &#8216;forms&#8221;. 

I spend a great deal of time applying &#8216;theory&#8217; to &#8216;practice&#8217; against ALIVE resisting opponents. I have SBG to thank for this training environment. People you can trust, if I want someone to punch me while getting off my back, I can get a big old helping served up. But mainly mat time is in a BJJ environment both gi and no-gi. 

For me, if I can&#8217;t get a theory or principle to work on the mat, it gets shelved until I understand more about it, or it proves itself to be useless. This way even when we&#8217;re &#8220;slow rolling&#8221; we constantly seek the smoothest most effective routes to where we want to go, instead of struggling for dominance. This is the advantage that submission grappling has over traditional &#8220;pin-based&#8221; grappling.

Anyway I look at it, I can only improve as long as I train smart (no injuries) and continue to put myself in situations where I am challenged to &#8220;put it all together&#8221; while training. One thing is this, we have each other to challenge and test as friends on the mat. That way if anything happens &#8216;in real life&#8217; you already know what it&#8217;s like to hit, get hit, to throw, to be thrown, nothing will come as a surprise. All that time spent in the moment are yours to keep. It doesn&#8217;t go away. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> &#8220;This sounds like more mythology/faith/fantasy based CMA that really makes other CMA practitioners look stupid and sound hokey. In fact, this kind of silliness plagues all martial arts. If these kinds of masters exist, let them come forward and prove their skills to the general public. Otherwise, it needs to remain in the category of interesting ideas for a fiction novel.&#8221;



When I get on the mat with someone, once physical contact takes place I can tell quickly what their skill level is. When I got to roll with Baret Yoshida in Hawaii it was like he went off my radar completely, and instantaneously. Not only could I not really tell &#8216;how good he was&#8217;, but he simple wasn&#8217;t ever there, and he was always coming around a corner playing a wicked game of peek-a-poo where submissions were peek-a-boo&#8217;s. It was the most fun I&#8217;ve had in the last 2 years rolling! 

You can ask BJJ black belts about this, I HAVE! Soon after they touch they can tell what level the other guy is at. 

I don&#8217;t think that this concept is limited to grappling, but it&#8217;s just a natural human sense that develops naturally when you spend time DOING something. All martial artists have it.  Including Chinese masters. Ever been around someone which made you feel 'unsafe'. Subconscious body language bro! 

The above paragraph your wrote makes it sound like your limiting the teaching of TCMA to the &#8216;forms&#8217; and &#8216;technical information&#8217; of 'traditional fighting' rather then allowing for the natural development of the human that occurs when they walk on ANY &#8220;path&#8221;; martial or otherwise. People change naturally over time, training in martial art directs that change.   

	It&#8217;s the stories I hear about two &#8220;masters&#8221; that simply stare into each others eyes until one backs down because his center moved that are my most favorite fairy tales. True? I hope so! 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> So there you have it.  Rude, disrespectful, shameful, sickening, whatever you like to call me
> Mike



I call it honest!

Dave in Oregon


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> "This sounds like more mythology/faith/fantasy based CMA that really makes other CMA practitioners look stupid and sound hokey."



PS- Wow, that one hurt! Because I enjoy playing in the wind just as much as i enjoy choking someone. Sadistic? Yes. Real? Yes. But there are so many ways to close off the blood or wind! And the wind feels so good! 

Just as much as learning how to apply the mantis concepts of 'hooks' while training...I like playing in the wind. Sound weird? Try it. Practice your forms really slow, then go do them in a strong wind and you'll see. Wear something that will act as drag. Puffy Pants or something. Relax and let the wind tell you things about your form. It's like biofeedback without electronics. 

What's fantasy and hokey is the traditional arts that claim to be transmitting martial art, when in reality it's just art. Sure there are some guys who can get some moves off inside a style, but the inability of TRADITIONAL form based martail art to perform in the MMA community is significant. 

If someone was to succussfully complete an MMA fight fully inside of one style, say 'mantis', without ever doing any movement outside of the "form", it would revolutionalize all modern perceptions of traditional martial art. I bet there would suddenly be 'mantis fights from back' forms. <wink>

Forms are put there to transcend. I heard from Sifu Rob Moses (he learned all 10 Shaolin forms) that the Shaolin forms were really put there simply to weed out the non-dedicated from the serious student. 

Learn forms, understand them, see what they have to say, then say something yourself. Transcend form. (make them yours!)

All in good fun. 

Dave in Oregon


----------



## nlmantis

Ninway J said:
			
		

> http://www.unitedmartialartists.org/vendrell/
> 
> I was wondering if anyone here practices or has even heard of Yee Chuan Tao Kung Fu? Is it the same as Yee Chuan Kung Fu? The above site is the only Kung Fu school in my area, and I was wondering if it's a legit art to take up.


--
Hi there, just to add my $0.02 on this topic, maybe a fresh perspective.

I train daily in Toronto under Sifu Harvey, who has studied intensively under Sigong Vendrell and Sigong Moses and is certified to teach Tai Mantis (lineage as per Thundering Mantis email) and Tai Shan Mantis. Sifu Harvey also studied the Chin Na (sub)system and Kali under Sigong Vendrell. All of the principles from YCT transmitted to Sifu Harvey are passed on in his school.

I started this training coming from Rotterdam, NL after 7 years of intensive study of the Japanese MA Kyokushin and later separated Mas. Oyama's Oyama Karate. These schools focus on competitive training where matches are 2-3 rounds of 2-3 minutes (depends) knock-out/knock-down no protection. 

In the first visit to Sifu Harvey's school I was amazed with the level of applicability in the techniques displayed and analyzed. Since then all classes have been of excellent quality and my fighting skills have improved 100% just due to the principle-based and analytic approach to teaching combined with a wide range of drills and forms. Furthermore, exposure to Tai Shan Mantis has been extremely enlightening uplifting the mind beyond self defense into the infinite world of Fu. Also in weaponry specifically working with the rope has proved very effective to improve skills in staff, 3section and Kali. The components that I think stand out in this school's training are the advanced (low) kicking, Chin Na and free-form moving meditation.

A component of legitimacy for this school can be derived from the fact that the art taught is extremely applicable to whatever your focus is; self defense, experiencing Fu, life. The little I have seen of YCT stands up against any martial art I have seen. If you are looking to seriously improve your skill, this is definitely a school to consider.

I was actually wondering if the originator for this thread actually checked out Sigong Vendrell's and Sigong Moses' school and can share some experiences? I would like to know what happened..

Love, Peace, Harmony.

Bob.


----------



## ThatWasAKick

Greetings,

My name is Hjordes Norman. I read this thread out of curiosity because I had heard of this debate, and was under the false impression that there were some in the community who were denigrating the legitimacy of Sifu Mike and his teaching. Being an old-timer to boards, I am pleased to discover that this thread is a simple case of relatively mild flaming by a person with poor manners who has not trained under Sifu Mike and knows less of YCT than I do. Though Im sure it warms Sifus heart to see his students come to his defense, I would gently suggest that none of them take the bashing here too seriously. 

Ive enjoyed the reading because I have no personal, emotional stake in Sifus reputation, and can look at the discussion from an outside POV. The upshot is that Ive gained insight into YCT and have a greater respect for Sifu. 

Sifu Mike is a man of heart, a *joy* to train under, a person of quality as well as skill and experience. It has been my discovery in life that caliber attracts caliber, and he has a fine group of people. Those students of Sifu that Ive met  Kala, Chee, Nadia, Riley, et al, have impressed me as very bright, talented, and focused people.

I cant speak for Sifus history, nor am I greatly interested in it. (Those of us who are not sheltered in our youth know that it is possible to live lifetimes in a short existence, experiencing the unbelievable, and we are used to not being believed.) The past is water. What is important is this moment. What I care about is how I can apply the principles and skill taught by Sifu to enhance my own MMA training on the mainland. That, and a good cup of Kona coffee.  

It has been an *honor *to meet and train briefly under Sifu Mike Vendrell.

I, too, would like to hear from the originator of this thread. 

_***Looking forward to the swim back to Hawaii. Meanwhile, blessings to all at the Welcome Mat. A Hui Hoe.***_


----------



## RHD

ThatWasAKick said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> My name is Hjordes Norman. I read this thread out of curiosity because I had heard of this debate, and was under the false impression that there were some in the community who were denigrating the legitimacy of Sifu Mike and his teaching. Being an old-timer to boards, I am pleased to discover that this thread is a simple case of relatively mild flaming by a person with poor manners who has not trained under Sifu Mike and knows less of YCT than I do. Though Im sure it warms Sifus heart to see his students come to his defense, I would gently suggest that none of them take the bashing here too seriously.
> 
> Ive enjoyed the reading because I have no personal, emotional stake in Sifus reputation, and can look at the discussion from an outside POV. The upshot is that Ive gained insight into YCT and have a greater respect for Sifu.
> 
> Sifu Mike is a man of heart, a *joy* to train under, a person of quality as well as skill and experience. It has been my discovery in life that caliber attracts caliber, and he has a fine group of people. Those students of Sifu that Ive met  Kala, Chee, Nadia, Riley, et al, have impressed me as very bright, talented, and focused people.
> 
> I cant speak for Sifus history, nor am I greatly interested in it. (Those of us who are not sheltered in our youth know that it is possible to live lifetimes in a short existence, experiencing the unbelievable, and we are used to not being believed.) The past is water. What is important is this moment. What I care about is how I can apply the principles and skill taught by Sifu to enhance my own MMA training on the mainland. That, and a good cup of Kona coffee.
> 
> It has been an *honor *to meet and train briefly under Sifu Mike Vendrell.
> 
> I, too, would like to hear from the originator of this thread.
> 
> _***Looking forward to the swim back to Hawaii. Meanwhile, blessings to all at the Welcome Mat. A Hui Hoe.***_



 :deadhorse


----------



## grappling_mandala

RHD said:
			
		

> :deadhorse


I think it's great that so many people like learning with Sifu Vendrell. Dead horse? It's a thread on YCT. <shrug> 

Dave


----------



## RHD

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> I think it's great that so many people like learning with Sifu Vendrell. Dead horse? It's a thread on YCT. <shrug>
> 
> Dave



It's now a very one-sided thread.  Wouldn't want to offend anyone :waah: 

Mike


----------



## tshadowchaser

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful. tshadowchaser MT MOD
Aka Sheldon


----------



## ThatWasAKick

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> ...I hate television. I love mythology.....
> 
> .... We can just train together and *increase each others skill*, (bold is mine - TWK) creative influences, and moments of inspiration and revelation. Its the moments that make sense inside of extremes, that become a part of us.
> 
> ...Anyway I look at it, I can only improve as long as I train smart (no injuries) and continue to put myself in situations where I am challenged to put it all together while training.
> 
> ... All that time spent in the moment are yours to keep. It doesnt go away.


Grappling Mandala - I just wanted to mention how much I enjoyed your post #109. You hit it right on the money.
-Hjordes (TWK)


----------



## Sifu Mike

Aloha

   I would like to congratulate and thank my students that performed at the
*Chin Woo Taiji Legacy International Martial Arts Championships*.
They did well and I am very proud of them and their performances. The students are Chee, Nadia, Dylan, Riley(my nephew) and Kala. 

Mahalo
Sifu Mike


----------



## tshadowchaser

Any pictures you can post of the event?


----------



## Sifu Mike

Aloha Shadow Chaser,

Yes, we will post some pictures as soon as Chee gets back tomarrow, she is our computer person here at the Welcome Mat.

Mahalo,

Sifu Mike


----------



## ThatWasAKick

Congratulations Chee, Nadia, Dylan, Riley, and Kala.  Looking forward to photos!  :supcool:  

 -Hjordes


----------



## chee

Hello everyone!

Thank you for all your support and well wishes to us, The Welcome Mat (Vendrell Martial Arts) Team to the 2004 Taiji Legacy in Dallas, Texas. I just got back (after stops to see my Mainland relatives) and am posting a 800x703 photo here. I have more but they need reduction in size. I will post them as they become available so please stay tuned!

The team competitors are: (L to R Back row) Nadia, Dylan, Chee, Riley and (front) Kala

We did very well. From a team of 5, we received 8 medals (everyone got one!). Thank you Sifu Mike for getting us ready! We had a wonderful experience and a great time.


----------



## nlmantis

Congratulations on your achievements, well deserved I'm sure!


----------



## chee

Taiji Legacy is a well-run international Kung Fu tournament. It draws competitors from all over the world. All judges are invited by Jimmy Wong, the promoter (and he knows all their names- impressive) not like some Martial Arts competitions where any "Black Belt" can be a judge. 

The Teens catelogy is an especially hard category to compete in because there were so many people in the category. This one category (all levels) took 3.5 hrs to finish making it a very long and tiring wait for many competitors. No competitor in this category (or any) should ever feel bad about not being able to win a medal. There are just so many talented people in a limited amount of divisions and judging is always a subjective thing...

Here are a few photos:




*Kala- Broad Sword *








*Dylan - Staff*









*Riley & Chee - *
*3-Sectional Staff vs Spear **



*

*More to come...*


----------



## ThatWasAKick

Great photos.  Congratulations to all.

Chee - is the YCT tee still available on cafepress?  It seems to have disappeared.


----------



## chee

Yes, the Yee Chuan Tao T-Shirts can be purchased here: http://www.cafepress.com/yee_chuan_tao

Here's more photos from 2004 Taiji Legacy:

*Chee* doing classical Chinese Fighting Fan. Unlike Tai Chi style fan, it is done in the fighting style of Yee Chuan Tao Sigung Michael Vendrell taught me.









Here's *Dylan & Kala* in Dual Gim (straight double-edged sword) done Yee Chuan Tao style






*Riley* doing Bumbo taught by Sigong Rob Moses:


----------



## tshadowchaser

Great photos 

and Congradulations

Hope you all enjoyed your time at the festival


----------



## Flatlander

And my congratulations as well to the Yee Chuan Tao team at the Taiji Legacy.  Sifu Mike must be a most able teacher.  A fortunate group of students, enjoying the bounty of their hard work must be a most gratifying sight for him.  Way to go!

Dan Bowman


----------



## RHD

Great pics.  Were you competing in Wushu or traditional forms?

Mike


----------



## chee

Thanks. Some of us competed in traditional and some open. No Wushu though.


----------



## grappling_mandala

Congrats to all of Sifu Mikes students who competed! 

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon


----------



## RHD

chee said:
			
		

> Thanks. Some of us competed in traditional and some open. No Wushu though.



Had to ask...
In the pictures there's some jumping and one of those butterfly-flippy-kick things.  Typical of wushu.  Are these common YCT movements?

Mike


----------



## Sifu Mike

Most of the kicks in YCT are executed at waist height or lower. We do have some jump kicks but not too many, it's hard to get any power when your feet are off the ground. I think you are referring to the photos of Dylan's and Kala's forms, and it was their choice to put those kicks in.  When we build a form, the students have the option to add any movement they choose.  That's what makes it an art.  I allow my students to create from things they learn from me and Sifu Rob.  

Sifu Mike


----------



## RHD

Sifu Mike said:
			
		

> Most of the kicks in YCT are executed at waist height or lower. We do have some jump kicks but not too many, it's hard to get any power when your feet are off the ground. I think you are referring to the photos of Dylan's and Kala's forms, and it was their choice to put those kicks in.  When we build a form, the students have the option to add any movement they choose.  That's what makes it an art.  I allow my students to create from things they learn from me and Sifu Rob.
> 
> Sifu Mike



Ha ha ha (sigh) 
Just wanted to see if the YCT gang was still monitoring this forum.  Looks like they are. :cheers: 
Enjoy.
Mike


----------



## RHD

Hey Dan, that quote about questioning is quite interesting wouldn't you say?
Mike


----------



## chee

RHD said:
			
		

> Had to ask...
> In the pictures there's some jumping and one of those butterfly-flippy-kick things. Typical of wushu. Are these common YCT movements?
> 
> Mike


Actually there are only 1 or 2 aerials in each form, they add to make the form more difficult in a competition where one needs an edge with so many other competitors, many times competing against Shaolins whose forms are composed of that type of "butterfly-flippy-kick things". In an open category, one can also go up against any kind of form or type of weapon. Our teens like aerials because they are more exciting to do and watch. Adults older than 30 don't normally attempt them since it's hard on the body and those that have been doing them when they were young (myself included) have one form of injury or another and can't handle things like that anymore. 

Tournaments are performance based so some of our forms are done especially for that reason. Since YCT is really a form-less art, we can use many classical as well as modern moves in them. Creativity allows YCT students to better understand when, how and why techniques are applied. Afterall, one should always do a form with an understanding of what technique one is using and why. In my 25+ years of martial arts study, I have always been taught that it should be an imaginary fight between another when one is performing a form of any kind.


----------



## RHD

chee said:
			
		

> Tournaments are performance based so some of our forms are done especially for that reason. Since YCT is really a form-less art, we can use many classical as well as modern moves in them. Creativity allows YCT students to better understand when, how and why techniques are applied. Afterall, one should always do a form with an understanding of what technique one is using and why.



So besides higher tournament scores, what is the application for the jumpy flippy thing and have any of you ever used it outside of a form?  I like the concept though...no forms, so just make them up.  

Mike


----------



## chee

RHD said:
			
		

> So besides higher tournament scores, what is the application for the jumpy flippy thing and have any of you ever used it outside of a form? I like the concept though...no forms, so just make them up.
> 
> Mike


Use your imagination. Haven't you ever seen KF movies where people do a butterfly kick or some kind of aerial to multiple attackers running at them? 

You can only make it up if you have some sort of a basic concept of what would work. There's always a counter to a counter to a counter as we learned in Chin Na which is also a part of our YCT training. It's in how you react to what's coming. We do study Shaolin's 12 basic forms as well as some other standard Shaolin forms Sifu Rob teaches us. To be a student of Yee Chuan Tao is to be versatile and think out of the box. Here's a question Sifu Rob Moses would ask us: have you ever tried doing Shaolin (or any of your own forms) in a phone booth? Well, you should be able to do them in any space, even in a phone booth.


----------



## 7starmantis

chee said:
			
		

> have you ever tried doing Shaolin (or any of your own forms) in a phone booth? Well, you should be able to do them in any space, even in a phone booth.


I like that, we do the same thing. We usually say an elevator, but a phone booth works as well. Although I can hardly get in a phone booth. 

7sm


----------



## chee

Yeah, on the way to the competition, Reily, one of our team member, went and did it in the airplane's bathroom. How's that for hard core?? I was surprised he didn't rock the plane as he can hardly fit in there as well! You can hardly find phone booths anymore in this country...


----------



## RHD

chee said:
			
		

> Use your imagination. Haven't you ever seen KF movies where people do a butterfly kick or some kind of aerial to multiple attackers running at them?
> 
> You can only make it up if you have some sort of a basic concept of what would work. There's always a counter to a counter to a counter as we learned in Chin Na which is also a part of our YCT training. It's in how you react to what's coming. We do study Shaolin's 12 basic forms as well as some other standard Shaolin forms Sifu Rob teaches us. To be a student of Yee Chuan Tao is to be versatile and think out of the box. Here's a question Sifu Rob Moses would ask us: have you ever tried doing Shaolin (or any of your own forms) in a phone booth? Well, you should be able to do them in any space, even in a phone booth.



Sure I've watched movies.  Choreography isn't fighting however.  So what is the application for that?  I think in this case it has much more to do with the winning of plastic trophies rather than true martial application.

Anyway I'm curious as to the Shao Lin references.  Which Shao Lin based systems are you referring to?  Bak Sil Lum has 10 forms that I know of, but there are many, many styles and systems that claim Shao Lin/Sil Lum heritage.  Also, has Sifu Moses ever tried _his_ forms in a phone booth?  How about his stick play thing?

Mike


----------



## Sifu Mike

True, Movie Choreography is not fighting, but neither is any of the form you learn in any martial arts. It is only one man interpatation or a dictionary of movements. Someone had to Choreograph all the forms in the Hung Gar and Shaolin system, right? 

Sifu Mike


----------



## Aegis

The difference is that if you look at most forms they have a set of useful techniques in them as well as a specific scenario for using them. If you're just sticking techniques in because they look good, and don't consider them to be learning to fight, why do them?

For example, the first form of seitei iaido has the following individual moves linked together:

Sitting down without dropping the sword of losing your sight of any potential threat

Sitting in a way that allows fast reaction

Drawing the sword to cut the eyes of an opponent

Flowing from a horizontal cut to a vertical cut while moving forwards

Awareness of the situation

Cleaning the blood off the sword

Sheathing the sword


All put together this form is supposed to represent an opponent kneeling in front of you trying to draw his sword to cut you. You anticipate the attack and draw your sword to cut across his eyes. Assuming he dodges back out of the reach of your initial cut, you follow up and cut vertically straight through his torso. He slumps to the ground, you look to see if he's dead while also checking for any friends, then you flick the blood off your blade and stand up.

That form has the individual techniques and a "practical" application of all the moves in that sequence. If you have moves that are totally unrealistic (like using aerial kicks to fight off several attackers or throwing your sword up in the air to catch it behind your back) then your form has problems, and teaches you impractical techniques.


----------



## 7starmantis

Sifu Mike said:
			
		

> True, Movie Choreography is not fighting, but neither is any of the form you learn in any martial arts. It is only one man interpatation or a dictionary of movements. Someone had to Choreograph all the forms in the Hung Gar and Shaolin system, right?
> 
> Sifu Mike


I have to disagree, all of the forms I have learned and continue to learn become fighting when I am able to use them in my fighting. If I'm unable to utilize whats in a form then yes, it is not fighting, but the idea, in my opinion, in learning forms is to be able to use them while fighting. During Chi Sau or real fighting is when you are able to apply what you learn in forms.

I also think that most forms are created through time and testing of many men, not just one man. Sometimes so, I guess, but not always.

7sm


----------



## RHD

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I have to disagree, all of the forms I have learned and continue to learn become fighting when I am able to use them in my fighting. If I'm unable to utilize whats in a form then yes, it is not fighting, but the idea, in my opinion, in learning forms is to be able to use them while fighting. During Chi Sau or real fighting is when you are able to apply what you learn in forms.
> 
> I also think that most forms are created through time and testing of many men, not just one man. Sometimes so, I guess, but not always.
> 
> 7sm



My understanding is that forms were first fighting techniques, then these evolved into drills, and from there strung together into forms.  It would make sense then that this could work in reverse from forms to drills to fighting...
And it does, if the content of the form is practical.
Mike


----------



## chee

RHD said:
			
		

> Anyway I'm curious as to the Shao Lin references. Which Shao Lin based systems are you referring to? Bak Sil Lum has 10 forms that I know of, but there are many, many styles and systems that claim Shao Lin/Sil Lum heritage.


Sifu Rob Moses is Northern Tai Mantis but also taught in the Shaolin system you can read the back posts of several people that discuss his lineage to determine which Shaolin style he may be. I personally don't care which style it is, it makes no difference to me. I am one of his student and I do what he teaches me.



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Also, has Sifu Moses ever tried _his_ forms in a phone booth? How about his stick play thing?


Why don't you ask him the next time you see or talk to him. He does not waste time on the Internet. He has too much to do then to be in with the computerized world.

I would like to know when you say "fight" what do you consider a fight to be? Is Boxing matches, fights? People call them fights. What about "Ultimate Fighting", some think they are fights, people pay a lot of money to go to them. What about a sparring match, they are not fights? Oh, a street fight perhaps, most street fights are just brawls. What about fights that breaks out in soccer matches? Those are fights too. OK, someone trying to rob you and you get into a fight. Police may call that something else.

How many fights then have you been involved in? How do you prepare for them? Sparring with others, friends, partners? How many fights have you been in that you believe your life may be in danger? Why do you do forms if they are not real fighting? Why does one practice on a Mok Jung or a bag if it's not a real person? They certainly don't hit back. Sparring is controlled practice of defensive or offensive responses so why do you do them. Or maybe you don't.

Why, why, why, grasshopper...


----------



## chee

One more thing, Wushu, the National martial arts of China. _Wushu_ mean _Martial Arts_ in Chinese. Do you believe they only put moves together for looks? Their forms are full of aerials and they are taught by old Masters. Do you think the Masters who created them have total disregard for why the moves are there? Who is to say something in a form does not have the "_true test of time_". These forms are relatively new in China.


----------



## nlmantis

Did anyone book a flight to Kona yet to check things out? I'm contemplating of going in February, catch a couple of classes at the Welcome Mat first hand.

(goes hand in hand with 5th wedding anniversary upcoming Feb-11, my wife will think it's about romance (HAHAHA!)):supcool:


----------



## chee

nlmantis said:
			
		

> Did anyone book a flight to Kona yet to check things out? I'm contemplating of going in February, catch a couple of classes at the Welcome Mat first hand.
> 
> (goes hand in hand with 5th wedding anniversary upcoming Feb-11, my wife will think it's about romance (HAHAHA!)):supcool:


Love to have you with us, Bob.


----------



## Sifu Mike

I don't believe in teaching things that have no use or that I have not used myself at one time or another in a real fight situation. There are NO!!! fake moves or just for show moves in YCT. I have done many jump and flying kicks in the matches I've been in and they work. There is though, a right time and place to use them and a wrong time as well but that's the same for any technique you use. Just because you may not do jump kick in your art does not mean that they are not useful. 

I truly believe that the reason my students did so well at the Chin Woo compatition was that what they did was a realistic interpetation of a Classacal Chinese Internal Martial Art. YCT is a real combat art. The fact that I work as a Stuntman and fight choreographer does not mean I can't tell the differance between real combat techniques and fake movie moves. 


Sifu Mike


----------



## RHD

Sifu Mike said:
			
		

> I don't believe in teaching things that have no use or that I have not used myself at one time or another in a real fight situation. There are NO!!! fake moves or just for show moves in YCT. I have done many jump and flying kicks in the matches I've been in and they work. There is though, a right time and place to use them and a wrong time as well but that's the same for any technique you use. Just because you may not do jump kick in your art does not mean that they are not useful.
> 
> I truly believe that the reason my students did so well at the Chin Woo compatition was that what they did was a realistic interpetation of a Classacal Chinese Internal Martial Art. YCT is a real combat art. The fact that I work as a Stuntman and fight choreographer does not mean I can't tell the differance between real combat techniques and fake movie moves.
> 
> 
> Sifu Mike



I find this very interesting.  _Very few_ Chinese martial arts have jumping/flying kicks.  Eagle Claw, Bak Sil Lum, a few others I've seen.  Msot do not.  Out of these, I have never seen or heard of an internal style that has them.  I would be curious to see if any other internal stylists have them in thier systems and what thier thoughts are regarding them.  YCT remains a bit of an enigma.  

Oh, and Chee...why ask me questions?  You will automatically disagree with my answers but take those of your sifu(s) on faith.  You have all the answers already...just ask the questions to the right people and maybe look for the answers yourself.
Mike


----------



## chee

RHD said:
			
		

> I find this very interesting. _Very few_ Chinese martial arts have jumping/flying kicks. Eagle Claw, Bak Sil Lum, a few others I've seen. Msot do not. Out of these, I have never seen or heard of an internal style that has them. I would be curious to see if any other internal stylists have them in thier systems and what thier thoughts are regarding them. YCT remains a bit of an enigma.


Internal systems do not have any flying kicks. Besides how would you practice that slowly anyway. Eagle Claw, Bak Sil Lum is not considered as an Internal art. Sil Lum is just a different pronouncation for Shaolin. It is in the Cantonese dialect. It means White Shaolin. It's just another style of Shaolin.



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Oh, and Chee...why ask me questions? You will automatically disagree with my answers but take those of your sifu(s) on faith. You have all the answers already...just ask the questions to the right people and maybe look for the answers yourself.
> Mike


Grasshopper, I already have my answers. The questions are to stimulate thoughts of being out of that box so many people are into. Sometimes your questions only seemed to be made only to ask a question without really caring what the answer is. If the questions are posed to seek an understanding or an insight to something then they indeed are worth an honest answer. 

Most people ask questions to seek the truth. The truth in this forum as well as in real life _are the truth of who ever is doing the answering_. One can take it or leave it. My knowledge is from what I gained in my 25+ years of martial arts studies of various styles of Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Jujitsu, various Gung Fu styles (including what my grandfather taught me when I was young), Escrama, Karate, Hapkido. So far I am only certified in two arts. I have never stopped learning from people nor closed my mind to non-traditional methods of teaching. New method does not mean they are untested or invalid. They just mean people took it out of the box. Some people learn best first by doing, some learn best first by watching then some gain knowledge by reading. I know "good" martial artists when I see one. It comes from the heart first, then ability and a continued thirst for knowledge, an open mind and always looking for someone better than them to learn from. I am blessed to have met many of these people and I truly believe that all my Senseis (4) and Sifus (3) are one of the best I can find. I have visited many schools and styles in different countries and cities in the US as that was my hobby when I used to have to travel across the US as a part of my job. I have many opportunities to make comparisons of the people I consider as _my_ Senseis and Sifus that they truly are great. I appreciate them very much.

I am sorry that you have had problems with yours. It apparently had hender your judgement of people and the ablity to trust. There's nothing wrong with asking valid questions. However, questioning just for the seek of asking a question is pointless. I hope someday you will find love, peace and harmony with life. Yee Chuan Tao is built upon that foundation.


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## RHD

Sifu Mike said:
			
		

> the reason my students did so well at the Chin Woo compatition was that what they did was a realistic interpetation of a Classacal Chinese Internal Martial Art. YCT is a real combat art. .
> 
> 
> Sifu Mike



Okay Chee...(and please, don't call me grasshopper, RHD or Mike will do).

Your sifus says that you were all doing a classical internal martial art...and there are clearly flying kicks being performed here.  Read the posts rather than simply reacting to them.

Most of all, I realiz that you and all of the other YCT gang don't like what I have to say and do not appreciate my opinions or questions.  That being said, I do not need your pity nor a justification of your mish-mash-of-martial arts background.  I will post my opinions and ask whatever questions come to mind because this is a discussion forum.  If you don't like what I have to say, don't listen. Oh...There is a point to my question, you just don't get it. 

Mike


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## chee

RHD said:
			
		

> Okay Chee...(and please, don't call me grasshopper, RHD or Mike will do).
> 
> Your sifus says that you were all doing a classical internal martial art...and there are clearly flying kicks being performed here. Read the posts rather than simply reacting to them.
> 
> 
> Mike


Mike, Only a hand full of Chinese Arts are considered as an _Internal System_. Some are Taijiquan, Yiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan. YCT is not one of these. Even though all Chinese MA relies on Chi (qi) for power, not all are considered as an internal art.


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## RHD

chee said:
			
		

> Mike, Only a hand full of Chinese Arts are considered as an _Internal System_. Some are Taijiquan, Yiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan. YCT is not one of these. Even though all Chinese MA relies on Chi (qi) for power, not all are considered as an internal art.



Chee, again I have to say please read the posts.  There must be some miscommunication between yourself and your sifu...Sifu Mike clearly stated that YCT was an internal art.  A classical one in fact.  I know what the three major classical "internal" martial arts are, I was only referrring to a previous post.  Please read them.  Maybe now you will have some more questions to ask at your school.  For instance, why do you say YCT is not an internal art, but your sifu does?  Am i misreading the posts or does he not say something to this effect?  Either way, I am sure you will have some great answer for this...I get the feeling you are all anxiously awaiting the next post on this thread so I won't dissapoint you.  Speaking of dissapointment, where's Grapplingmandala been?  I'm sure he's got some input just waiting to be spilled out.    :idunno: 

Mike


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## 7starmantis

That is true, Sifu Mike stated YCT is a classical internal martial art system. It does seem there is a bit of miscommunication going around.

This discussion is fine and is bordering on polite and respectful, lets keep it that way so we can continue the dicussion, if it gets out of hand I will close it.

7sm


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## chee

RHD said:
			
		

> Chee, again I have to say please read the posts. There must be some miscommunication between yourself and your sifu...Sifu Mike clearly stated that YCT was an internal art. A classical one in fact. I know what the three major classical "internal" martial arts are, I was only referrring to a previous post. Please read them. Maybe now you will have some more questions to ask at your school. For instance, why do you say YCT is not an internal art, but your sifu does? Am i misreading the posts or does he not say something to this effect? Mike


Apparently, what I posted _after_ my last post that did show, did not get posted or I was interrupted in the process because I don't see it now. I had actually wrote again clarifing my statement after that post. I will try to clarify my statement (again). YCT _is_ an internal classical MA in the practical sense. I have a complete understanding of what YCT art is and what Sigong Mike is all about. My follow-up post explaining what I meant unfortunately did not post somehow. YCT it's not _officially recognized _as an internal art. By the word "recognize", I mean _recognized _by those artists whose Internal System's are classified in the offical meaning of the classification _Internal System _(note that I stressed the word "offical"). 

The following incident is why I said "offically recognized". 3 years ago when I first competed in Taiji Legacy, I entered in the _Internal Weapons Forms_ Category because very naively, my Sifu and I thought since YCT is an internal art form, I should entered in that category. The weapon I used is the double-edge straight sword, _Gim_ (also known as Taiji Sword). I was the first one up, after my performance the judges circled-up among themselves talking to each other. Now, if you've ever been in a competition, you would know that judges gathering around is not a good thing after any performance. I came to find out that this category of "Internal" system is only for those "_recognized_" internal systems. All the people competing in this category are all doing their swords Taiji style (in slow execution) and here I was doing a _fighting_ Gim form (my form had Taiji moves but not done slowly). I was told I have been misclassified and I should have competed in the _Open_ category. This is the hard way that I learn about classifications in Chinese MA Tournaments. My sifu was not to blame since he is not in the tournament circuit. He does not believe in competitions. I wanted to do it for myself so I went and he supported that decision.

So now I know why there is so much confusion about what _Internal System_ really is. I did not make it up, some offical group of practitioner did. The _miscommunication_ referred to in the recent posts seemed to be generated by me, by not clarifing what I meant when I made the original statement. I will restate it now again:

YCT it's not _officially recognized _as an internal art by practitioners whose art is in the offically recognized Internal Arts system. But in a practical sense, YCT _is_ an internal martial art and is definitely classical.

Thank you.artyon:


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## RHD

Chee, thanks for the clarification.  Your previous posts were a bit confusing.
I have seen the circle of judges before...it's ugly.  I once witnessed a poor young man at a tournament who had performed what he called "shaolin fighting birds" form.  One of his judges was a well known mantis sifu...John funk, who recognized the form as a mantis form (Bung Bo I believe).  There was quite a scene between the student, Mr. Funk, the student's sifu, and the other judges when the kid was told it was a mantis form and not "fighting birds".

Mike


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## chee

Yeah, it's always something at tournaments so I guess that's why it turns off a lot of people who had bad experiences. We also had a couple of "mishaps" this year. Dylan was not allowed to use his own staff in the staff form because it was not classififed as a "Kung Fu" staff. We did not know obviously when we went or else we could have bought another one with us. One of his Shaolin competitor graciously lend Dylan his own staff so Dylan was able to compete. Later the judges told us that if we had enterd Dylan in the Open category, he would have been allowed his own weapon. 

Reily performed his Jiu Huan Dao (9 Ring) in the Open category because we did not know that he could be entered in the Broadsword category since all the competitors had "regular" broadswords. So after his performance, the judges circled-around (!) and decided to disqualify his entry. Unfortunately, the Broadsword category had already finished so Reily was not able to compete in that category. Luckily, Reily had other entires which he was able to perform very well so it was not a complete loss for him. 

These experiences and others like this are common place in _any_ tournament. However, we still had a great experience and lots of fun meeting other practioners in Chinese MA.

Oh, I forgot to post pictures of Nadia doing her Shaolin Six form. I did not mean to exclude her as we are all very proud of those who had competed!


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## RHD

Perhaps I will have my own "tournament blues" soon as I will be attending yet another tournament in November.
Mike


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## chee

I hope not Mike. Good luck on your tournament!


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## nlmantis

chee said:
			
		

> ... Dylan was not allowed to use his own staff in the staff form because it was not classififed as a "Kung Fu" staff...


What kind of staff were you using, not a regular white waxwood?



			
				chee said:
			
		

> ...Reily performed his Jiu Huan Dao (9 Ring) in the Open category because we did not know that he could be entered in the Broadsword category since all the competitors had "regular" broadswords. So after his performance, the judges circled-around (!) and decided to disqualify his entry. Unfortunately, the Broadsword category had already finished so Reily was not able to compete in that category.


So there is no opportunity to ask prior to the tournament on qualification? That's kinda strange.



			
				chee said:
			
		

> ...
> Oh, I forgot to post pictures of Nadia doing her Shaolin Six form. I did not mean to exclude her as we are all very proud of those who had competed!


Shaolin Six is a very cool form! How did she do and how does this kind of form compares to what other schools are doing? (off-topic? sorry.)


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## 7starmantis

nlmantis said:
			
		

> Shaolin Six is a very cool form! How did she do and how does this kind of form compares to what other schools are doing? (off-topic? sorry.)


No your fine, its not really off topic, since we are dicussing YCT. A little straying of topic is fine and expected. Now if you wanted to dicuss the variations in application from Shaolin Six before the reconstruction of the middle ages, then yes, I would say a seperate thread is in order. :ultracool 

7sm


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## chee

nlmantis said:
			
		

> What kind of staff were you using, not a regular white waxwood?


He ordered a "performance" staff made out of fiberglass. It looked really nice, we just didn't think there would be a problem since we have not done any KF tournaments prior to this one. This is the first time any of the teens did a KF tournament. 



> So there is no opportunity to ask prior to the tournament on qualification? That's kinda strange


No, we just did not know to ask. They would have answer if we knew what to ask. The year that I was placed in the Internal Taiji Sword category, I actually did call to ask telling them it's a Taiji sword but I don't do it with slow execution. I got put in there anyway. I guessed they looked at the weapon and thought there's only one way to do it.



> Shaolin Six is a very cool form! How did she do and how does this kind of form compares to what other schools are doing?


She did very well, receiving a Gold medal. Many teens there are very good. They were all doing traditional forms (of their style of CMA) since that was the category. I love the form. Sifu Rob Moses taught us Shaolin Six for performance and demostration purposes. He starts us all out doing the Shaolin 1-12 forms, then gradually teach us more basic forms such as Law Horn (sp?) and such. Shaolin Six is a more advanced form less than a hand full got to learn it.


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## grappling_mandala

RHD Said "YCT remains a bit of an enigma."

You might be on to something. I think good martial art is impossible to put into a box. 

Dave Copeland
Beaverton SBGi


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## grappling_mandala

RHD said 

"Most of all, I realiz that you and all of the other YCT gang don't like what I have to say and do not appreciate my opinions or questions. That being said, I do not need your pity nor a justification of your mish-mash-of-martial arts background. I will post my opinions and ask whatever questions come to mind because this is a discussion forum. If you don't like what I have to say, don't listen. Oh...There is a point to my question, you just don't get it."

Inquiry is the only method of truly understanding something. With that said there are certain aspects of movement that are lost in translation on the net. 

With that said I'll engage in dialog.

There is no such thing as the "YCT" gang your talking about man, and there is no such thing as a "mish-msh-of-martial arts" background. Fighting is fighting. Movement is movement. Every teacher of martial art is sometimes a student and sometimes the teacher. I know your interested in TCM, but I gotta tell you that you should study good movement for good movements sake. Figure out what makes good movement good. That is all that matters. There are plenty of stylists caught up in the style that forget they are suppose to be learning to move more effectively. 

This is my reason for studying with Sifu Vendrell. 

Your more then welcome to look at the effects of Sifu Vendrells teaching at my website gallery: http://sbg.technical-journal.com/gallery/

I have spent 10 years of my life studying jiu jitsu. The geometry you see on my site is a direct effect from Michael Vendrells mentoring. What is it you ask? It's nothing more then the wordless logic of form and function in any random moment of human motion & form. 

I spar my art every chance I get. There is no room for abstract inapplicable theory in the truth telling that occurs on the mat. I avoid lists of information now. Either what you know works or it doesnt. And it works all at once, or not at all. 

The SBGi philosophy is infamous for rejecting functionless form, and embracing methodical training environments that produce effective fighters. 

Now as an individual, in the environment I train in, that means that "style" for me has more to do with finding my own personality in my movement. How I'm made and how I am meant to move. Vendrell's "formless" approach to martial art has taught me to look not only for the most effect stuctures of the body and their means of transformation. (thru the use of the bodies natural tetrahedral relationship to the edge of it's sphere) (ref: musashi's biography: the criss-crossing diagonals of the body) 

Also in sensing the space between the seams of movement. The music of the body you could call this. 

This makes my movement while sparring much smoother and forgiving, and I get moves to work more effortlessly, accepting the reality of what is possible for the situation instead of trying to force my own agenda. Although I can take credit for the hardwork of the trial and error of consistant sparring, having consistant reference points to express what I feel kinesthetically has been invaluable for my overall growth.

For instance the concept of the "perfect move" has pretty much solved any problem I had "rehersing" forms either in my head or in body. 

I was very anti form before believing that practicing forms locked you into that response under stress. After training w/ Vendrell I believe there is a tremendous amount of potential locked away in the human body itself ready to come out thru our expression in movement. Once you know a basic concept or principle say for instance a "3-pattern" neutralize-redirect-attack it can be applied in any possible direction. No only inside the tight pattern of the mook jong, but along any natural plane our bodies move in. Now is that to say that there is now a form or pattern to follow? Who knows? There are whole systems following certain patterns of human motion. 

I understand your critical tone, I am skeptical of most traditional arts because of my background in the grappling community. But alas, I have found Art to be bigger then style, tradition, or lineage. Movement speaks for itself. Everything else is hearsay. 

Dave Copeland
Beaverton SBGi


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## RHD

Can we let dead threads stay dead?

BTW...nice to see you GM.  Where have you been all this time?

Mike


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## 7starmantis

Seriously. I was hoping this was one of the threads that would stay dead. Its not that I mind it being refreshed if it stays polite and respectful. I dont personally see much use in reviving it, as I think many others will agree, but your welcome to post as long as it stays above the rules. 

 MT Senior Mod
 7starmantis
 Adam C


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