# Defensive spin applications



## MattJ (Apr 6, 2015)

Short vid describing some uses of spins as a defensive mechanism.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 6, 2015)

That looks unsafe!


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## MattJ (Apr 7, 2015)

In what way? It's actually very hard for the opponent to stop you or hit you clean in a spin. I'm certainly not talking about leading with offensive spinning techniques. That is a bad idea, imho. I use all of these in sparring, and in other resistant scenarios.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 7, 2015)

MattJ said:


> In what way? It's actually very hard for the opponent to stop you or hit you clean in a spin. I'm certainly not talking about leading with offensive spinning techniques. That is a bad idea, imho. I use all of these in sparring, and in other resistant scenarios.


Don't get me wrong. I am a spinner. I just think spinning in place is dangerous; because, you aren't moving off any previous lines of attack. Instead of just spinning, we call this maneuver, a rolling check.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> because, you aren't moving off any previous lines of attack.


Agree! When you spin, You should not just spin along your spine. You should spin along one of your foot. This way, you can move yourself to be out of your opponent's attacking path.  If you want to make a bigger spin, you will need to make an extra side step (this will move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path), land your foot at your desired "spinning center" so your body can spin from there.

In MA, this kind of footwork is called "车轮步(Che Lun Bu) - wheeling step". It should be called "defensive footwork applications" and not just "defensive spin applications".


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! When you spin, You should not just spin along your spine. You should spin along one of your foot. This way, you can move yourself to be out of your opponent's attacking path.  If you want to make a bigger spin, you will need to make an extra side step (this will move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path), land your foot at your desired "spinning center" so your body can spin from there.
> 
> In MA, this kind of footwork is called "车轮步(Che Lun Bu) - wheeling step". It should be called "defensive footwork applications" and not just "defensive spin applications".



There is a piece of capoeira footwork that is like that. You shift left then right. 

But spinning in that tight is seriously giving up your back.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> There is a piece of capoeira footwork that is like that. You shift left then right.
> 
> But spinning in that tight is seriously giving up your back.


Iif you just spin half way and your chest always face to your opponent's chest. You will never turn your back into your opponent.

In the following picture, your move your left foot from the solid L box into the dashed L box, you then move your right foot from the solid R box into the dashed R box. That should be your maximum amount of body spin and you will not give up your back.


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Iif you just spin half way and your chest always face to your opponent's chest. You will never turn your back into your opponent.
> 
> In the following picture, your move your left foot from the solid L box into the dashed L box, you then move your right foot from the solid R box into the dashed R box. That should be your maximum amount of body spin and you will not give up your back.



Very similar to the capo except we would step our leg foot to the right rather than straight ahead creating a fake.

But you are still giving your back. You can't spin and not give your back up.


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## MattJ (Apr 7, 2015)

In a technical sense it is giving up your back, but again, the momentum of the spin is going to make it very difficult for anyone to hold on or get a clean hit on you. If they try to hang on to your clothes, they will risk breaking their fingers.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You can't spin and not give your back up.


In order to solve this problem, you can

- force your opponent to spin with you,
- spin through your opponent's side door and behind his back,
- only spin half way and still remain face to face,
- cut in through a 90 degree angle, or
- ...



MattJ said:


> In a technical sense it is giving up your back, but again, the momentum of the spin is going to make it very difficult for anyone to hold on or get a clean hit on you. If they try to hang on to your clothes, they will risk breaking their fingers.


I think it's the "rear neck choke" that drop bear may have concern about. Also when you spin and if your opponent spins with you, he may drag you down to the ground with him.


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In order to solve this problem, you can
> 
> - force your opponent to spin with you,
> - spin through your opponent's side door and behind his back,
> ...



Back control. Gives me a bit more to grab.


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## MattJ (Apr 8, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Don't get me wrong. I am a spinner. I just think spinning in place is dangerous; because, you aren't moving off any previous lines of attack. Instead of just spinning, we call this maneuver, a rolling check.



I'm not talking about spinning in place. If you watch the video, I end up to the side and/or behind the attacker.  Most of the spins are used because some is trying to get *my* back. The standard RNC defense is to turn in against the choke.  Crocodile roll against someone trying to trap your legs and mount. My spins are the same concept, just upright. They have to be done explosively, for sure. If someone already has back control, spin probably won't work, it would be too late. If they don't have it, it can work well, because it's very hard to hang on to someone doing an explosive spin. I've never personally had anyone spin with me when I tried one, but I suppose it's possible. Very low percentage, though.


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## Danny T (Apr 8, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Don't get me wrong. I am a spinner. I just think spinning in place is dangerous; because, you aren't moving off any previous lines of attack. Instead of just spinning, we call this maneuver, a rolling check.


I'm seeing movement to the outside of the opponent and an angling on his spin. I believe if I was in a defensive mode as he states I would use the spin with a counter-attack action within the spin.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 8, 2015)

I've got no gripe with the last two applications shown. If someone is attacking from behind, you need to turn and face them. That just makes sense.

The first two applications, I'm not so fond of. Even though you're getting a bit off angle (which is good), you're wasting a lot of movement, disrupting your own balance, taking your eyes of your opponent, and exposing your back without any particular benefit.

For the spin against a grab, you are stepping with your feet either 3 or 4 times (depending on which time you demoed it). A good rule of thumb in evaluating a technique is "when I get a move, he gets a move." As demoed, your technique required you to step 3-4 times, but your opponent only has to step once to compensate for your spinning. That leaves him a free tempo to hit or tackle you as you come out of the spin.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 8, 2015)

[Beside


Tony Dismukes said:


> "when I get a move, he gets a move." As demoed, your technique required you to step 3-4 times, but your opponent only has to step once to compensate for your spinning. That leaves him a free tempo to hit or tackle you as you come out of the spin.


That's my concern as well. If your opponent shoot at your legs when you spin, you have no defense to deal with it. When you spin, your legs will be crossed. That will also give your opponent a chance to sweep your leg. To prevent the RNC, you can swing your fists to protect your upper body (such as hay-maker, spin back fist), but you still can't protect your legs.


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## MattJ (Apr 8, 2015)

It does take some steps, but you can see from the vid that it can be done fast.  The spin is done by the time opponent realizes what's happened.  Back exposure is minimal because I'm not stopping in the middle, similar to the crocodile rolls used in BJJ.  Is my back exposed? Technically yes, but the momentum involved is a reliable ally. A clean hit or grab is very difficult during the spin. Nate Diaz uses something similar fairly often against single leg attempts. The application against the punch is clearly worst case scenario - getting hit - but spin is a good option to absorb the strike and lessen the impact.  Very unorthodox, I grant you.  I've only ever seen a few people use it, but it's very effective.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 8, 2015)

MattJ said:


> I've never personally had anyone spin with me when I tried one, but I suppose it's possible. Very low percentage, though.


It depends on how close your body and your opponent's body are. When you spin, if one of your opponent's arms can wrap around your waist, his other hand can press down behind your knee joint, he can spin with you, help you to spin a bit more than you really want to, and press/drag you down to the ground. In order to prevent that from happening, you will need to control your opponent's arms such as under hook, over hook, ... You will need to guide your opponent's arms away from your waist/neck when you "spin".

There is a good reason that grapplers like to replace "body rotation" with "90 degree sharp turn" just because there is too much risk involved in "body rotation".


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## thanson02 (Apr 20, 2015)

I am 50/50 on this.  The spins to the outside make sense.  Never been a fan of spins to their inside.  You end up in line with their rear hand strikes.  Although the one where he spins in for the elbow strike could work, assuming the other guy doesn't have a knife on him.


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