# Beginning emphasis in randori?



## Formosa Neijia (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm coming into judo having extensive experience in some other martial arts. I pulled my first randori last night and I have a question: should I try to stick with attempting to make classical, basic techniques work or should I just try to get what I can to work?

I've been doing lots of uchikomi on things like o-goshi, etc. and working on my kuzushi. But even the black belts in my class are telling me that they can rarely get hip throws to work in randori and they prefer speed over trying to get a perfect kuzushi. But for some reason, I feel like I'm supposed to be trying to make these basic techniques work in randori.

However, I'm finding that many of the throws that I learned from my other arts have counterparts in judo, albeit some of the rarer throws. My other arts had throws a lot like sumi-otoshi, uke-otoshi, iriminage (okay, aikido but I turned it into osoto-gari) etc. In my second randori match last night, I tried some of these throws and I got two of them to work right off the bat probably due to prior experience with them. But these aren't considered beginning throws in my class. In fact, I've never seen anyone in my dojo do them so far, let alone been taught these by my teachers. 

So in randori, go with what I can make work or make what I'm being taught (basics) work?


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## bignick (Jul 10, 2008)

In randori, do your best to make the basics work.  You see a lot of competition people only have a couple of basic throws perfected.  That's all you really need. In an actual shiai, use whatever you can.

Remember randori is for learing to execute moves in a dynamic situation, it's a teaching tool, not a competition.


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## jks9199 (Jul 10, 2008)

One other thought...

You may know similar/comparable skills from other styles... but does your training partner know how to handle them?  It doesn't take much to put someone in over their head, and in things like judo randori, that can get someone hurt.

Focus on really learning those basics in judo now; do the other stuff down the road.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 10, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> One other thought...
> 
> You may know similar/comparable skills from other styles... but does your training partner know how to handle them?  It doesn't take much to put someone in over their head, and in things like judo randori, that can get someone hurt.
> 
> Focus on really learning those basics in judo now; do the other stuff down the road.



Actually, I'm noticing the opposite situation. Many of the throws that I know and am finding similar versions of in judo are done in ways that don't utilize as much strength. 

For example, my version of osoto-gari goes outside the arm instead of inside, meaning the opponent doesn't struggle as much. I put my opponent down pretty softly because the setup doesn't allow him to use strength. 

My other art is taijiquan, BTW. I have done tons of push hands over the years, including some throwing.

The guys that stick with the straight Kodokan way of throwing in my dojo seem to always end up in strength contests, tugging back and forth of each others' gis. I think this is because the throws are always executed from the inside where the opponent is strong instead of at angles or on the outside where he is weak.

In looking around, I'm finding that some judo players execute the throws the way that I do. I see a lot of similarities, for example, in the way Karo Parisyan does his throws because he does gi-less judo on his tapes. That's sort of what my throws look like.

I'm not interested in having my judo turn into a struggle-fest so I'm likely going to try to find ways to avoid that. Perhaps me working these non-standard versions will be a way to do that. I'm not really worried if I have a unorthodox style. 

But I do appreciate any and all thoughts on this matter.


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## jarrod (Jul 14, 2008)

think of "the basics" as a template.  the way you actually execute the throw will depend greatly on a variety of factors.  i know very few good judoka who execute live throws exactly the way that they are taught. 

one of the biggest things to consider is gripping.  the traditional right hand lapel/ left hand sleeve grip is pretty much only for practicing the mechanics of the throw.  think of it this way; if you & your opponent each have the same grip, you each have a 50/50 chance of getting the throw.  establishing the grip you want while preventing your opponent from getting his is a HUGE part of the game.  Neil Adams has an excellent book on gripping; most sambo practitioners have a really good gripping approach.

tai chi & judo are very complimentary styles.  if you stick with it i think you will find your understanding of energy & circular movement will really pay off.  

jf


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## Darth F.Takeda (Jul 14, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> Actually, I'm noticing the opposite situation. Many of the throws that I know and am finding similar versions of in judo are done in ways that don't utilize as much strength.
> 
> For example, my version of osoto-gari goes outside the arm instead of inside, meaning the opponent doesn't struggle as much. I put my opponent down pretty softly because the setup doesn't allow him to use strength.
> 
> ...


 
You sound like you are stumbling into Aiki Jujutsu, due to your prior Taiji and your new Judo training.

 When you see films of the older Judo masters, like Kotani, they were very "sift" in their application.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 14, 2008)

jarrod said:


> think of "the basics" as a template.  the way you actually execute the throw will depend greatly on a variety of factors.  i know very few good judoka who execute live throws exactly the way that they are taught.
> 
> one of the biggest things to consider is gripping.  the traditional right hand lapel/ left hand sleeve grip is pretty much only for practicing the mechanics of the throw.  think of it this way; if you & your opponent each have the same grip, you each have a 50/50 chance of getting the throw.  establishing the grip you want while preventing your opponent from getting his is a HUGE part of the game.  Neil Adams has an excellent book on gripping; most sambo practitioners have a really good gripping approach.
> 
> ...



Good stuff. Yeah, the gripping game is tripping me up a bit. I'll need to do some research on that. Thanks for the leads. I also like your ideas about the basics as templates. That does seem to be the way to go.

I'm looking forward to seeing how my judo training combines with my taiji background. Loving it so far.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 14, 2008)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> You sound like you are stumbling into Aiki Jujutsu, due to your prior Taiji and your new Judo training.
> 
> When you see films of the older Judo masters, like Kotani, they were very "sift" in their application.



That does seem to be my direction so far, but I don't mind mixing some of the more physical/strength based stuff into the randori either. I want to make sure I develop both sides of my game so I can switch back and forth. Confuses the opponent that way.


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## jarrod (Jul 14, 2008)

approach gripping the way you would push hands & you should have some pretty amazing results.


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