# Wing Chun causes knee injuries?



## Nyrotic (Aug 20, 2007)

I've noticed that while doing SLT, after about 2-3 reps of it (I do them SLOW), my knees start to hurt. I've been told to flex my pelvis forward, to keep the weight on my heels, and to keep my back straight. I try all of this at once and after a while, i still feel stress in my knees. What else can I do to avoid injuring my knees? I'm going to ask my sifu about this in a few hours when he gets home, but I'd like some advice from everyone here as well.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
-Nyro


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2007)

The stance can cause, or at least contribute to, knee injuries, even if done properly.  If it is injuring you, you may need to make adjustments, nevermind that someone tells you your kung fu will suffer for it.  They are YOUR knees, and you need to walk on them.  Do what's right for you.


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## Nyrotic (Aug 20, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> The stance can cause, or at least contribute to, knee injuries, even if done properly. If it is injuring you, you may need to make adjustments, nevermind that someone tells you your kung fu will suffer for it. They are YOUR knees, and you need to walk on them. Do what's right for you.


 
I see, it just seems so...strange. Why, if the stance would cause such damage to the body, was WC taught for years and years, and how are long time practitioners of the art able to do WC with seemingly little injury to the knees?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> I see, it just seems so...strange. Why, if the stance would cause such damage to the body, was WC taught for years and years, and how are long time practitioners of the art able to do WC with seemingly little injury to the knees?


 
well, it's not guaranteed to cause injury.  and maybe some people are more inclined to injury than others, based on genetics or some other influences.  Maybe one person got a minor injury while young, and years later the WC training brought that back to the front line.  If you start out doing the stance somewhat incorrectly, it may cause an injury that never fully heals, and any continued training just makes it worse, even if you correct the stance.  At that point the damange is done, and any further training with this kind of stance might just compound the problem.

But it is an odd stance, and I believe it CAN cause problems, and if that happens to you, you should listen to your body and take appropriate actions.  Talk to your sifu and see if he can identify any errors in your stance, get it as correct as you can and see if that helps.  But if it doesn't, you may simply not be able to do the stance the prescribed way.  You may need to relax your knees and raise your stance and not have the knees pointed inward.

My WC sifu has terrible knees from football and a career as a fireman.  His stance is not at all like the ideal, but it's what he has to do now.  If he tried to do the stance the ideal way, he would just destroy his knees even further.


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## bcbernam777 (Aug 20, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> I've noticed that while doing SLT, after about 2-3 reps of it (I do them SLOW), my knees start to hurt. I've been told to flex my pelvis forward, to keep the weight on my heels, and to keep my back straight. I try all of this at once and after a while, i still feel stress in my knees. What else can I do to avoid injuring my knees? I'm going to ask my sifu about this in a few hours when he gets home, but I'd like some advice from everyone here as well.
> 
> Any advice is greatly appreciated.
> -Nyro


 

Theres the problem, with all due respect to your Sifu, you do not keep your weight on your heels, it is an improper distribution of weight and places to much pressure on the knees. SLT if done properly will NOT lead to sore knees, infact sore knees is the indicator that the stance is not being performed correctly. The weight of the stance needs to be on the balls of the feet, witht he toes gripping the ground.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 20, 2007)

bcbernam777 said:


> Theres the problem, with all due respect to your Sifu, you do not keep your weight on your heels, it is an improper distribution of weight and places to much pressure on the knees. SLT if done properly will NOT lead to sore knees, infact sore knees is the indicator that the stance is not being performed correctly. The weight of the stance needs to be on the balls of the feet, witht he toes gripping the ground.


 
While I do agree with you, isn't it true that when in the beginning stages it is quite common for students to have sore knees? Atleast until the muscles have become strong enough to hold the stance for streches of time?


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## brocklee (Aug 20, 2007)

If you're knees are hurting, re-adjust until they don't.  There are many different types of stances, depending on the type of WC you are training.  It is taught in my class that the weight must be placed on the heals.  When I was taking WT, the weight seemed to shift between heal and toe and the pivot point was directly down the center of the foot....kinda like where Jesus' foot holes would be (not meaning to bring up religion, I just don't know how to better describe it).  In WT, my instructor told me of all the soreness that is to come.  While my Sifu on the other hand states that all bodies are unique and the stance should be comfortable and one practitioner may look completely different from the next but they both have the proper concept applied.  

Save those knees!!!

GL HF


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## Danny T (Aug 20, 2007)

Without seeing your stance it will be a bit difficult to know why. Unless you have alignment concerns with your leg and knees (bowlegged for instance) there should be no side pressure on the knees if you are in a proper stance. The knees follow the toes and should be flexed. The feet are turned inward with the knees bent and flexed naturally. The knees should NOT be pulled inward this creates a great amount of pressure on the out board side of the knees and can cause pain. As bcbernam777 has stated the weight should be on the balls of the feet not the heels. The heels should be on the ground but not holding the weight. Toes gripping the ground, inner thighs (Adductors)should be tensed as well as the glutes. The rest of the legs should be relaxed. It you are in a proper stance with the proper muscles utilized you should be quite relaxed yet very stable. If you were to attempt to stand up properly without releasing any of the tension or moving the feet or pelvis you would not be able to stand upright. You would feel as though your stance is keeping you from standing up properly and the knees will have no pressure or pain.

Danny T


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## bcbernam777 (Aug 21, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> While I do agree with you, isn't it true that when in the beginning stages it is quite common for students to have sore knees? Atleast until the muscles have become strong enough to hold the stance for streches of time?


 

Yes absolutly, but it is not because the muscles have not become strong enough, it is becasue they have not yet aquired the appropriate mechanics, I had sore knees for a solid six months before I found the proper mechanics of the stance, it is inevitable, unfourtuanatly, but in response to the original post, using the weight on the heel, is a sure sign of incorrect mechanics.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 21, 2007)

bcbernam777 said:


> Yes absolutly, but it is not because the muscles have not become strong enough, it is becasue they have not yet aquired the appropriate mechanics, I had sore knees for a solid six months before I found the proper mechanics of the stance, it is inevitable, unfourtuanatly, but in response to the original post, using the weight on the heel, is a sure sign of incorrect mechanics.


 
Well, I was close. I wasn't going to argue about weight placement, since we're told to put it more on the edge of the foot, but distribute the weight evenly through out the foot. If that makes any sense at all.


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## monji112000 (Aug 21, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> I've noticed that while doing SLT, after about 2-3 reps of it (I do them SLOW), my knees start to hurt. I've been told to flex my pelvis forward, to keep the weight on my heels, and to keep my back straight. I try all of this at once and after a while, i still feel stress in my knees. What else can I do to avoid injuring my knees? I'm going to ask my sifu about this in a few hours when he gets home, but I'd like some advice from everyone here as well.
> 
> Any advice is greatly appreciated.
> -Nyro



I have had allot of problems with knees so honestly I have been there many times.

I would suggest also pinching the knees. This is for 1)it strengthens them more 2)Fighting application. The transitions into and out of stances and footwork are based normally around turning the horse so pinching the knees a large part of that movement.

your knee has allot of ligaments and small parts. They can be injured from over usage. Constant hard training for years will hurt your knees nothing can stop that (every sport has this problem). We do allot of shocking off the ground, that can take be a problem also. I would suggest doing as much stance training for the first 3 months as you can handle. I did allot of it at first and I try to go back to it every so often. You will find that when you chi sao with allot of people stance training is a big deal. If the pain doesn't go away go see a doc, maybe you are doing something wrong( your sifu my be telling you something wrong its possible). often times bad practices(habits) are continued from sifu to student for many generations.

the mechanics of the horse vary from school to school. Some say to have the weight on the balls of the feet others the heel. I would suggest not pushing the hips too much, I used to push them way too much and it forced my horse to be worthless. Its a relaxed stance, nothing extreme, I personally put all my weight on my heels. Thats the way I was shown by many sifus, and I have tried both methods. Its not about whats the wrong way, its about what you can do.


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## brocklee (Aug 21, 2007)

My knees feel great.  Maybe Im doing something wrong.


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## DungHo (Sep 23, 2007)

the weight should be spread evenly on your feet.  that how I was taught.  and if you feel hurt stop practice relax for while and go at it again, that how I see it.


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 23, 2007)

I am told asian knees may have a slightly different makeup to ours, and this may account for our predecessors managing ok.  

Ree Ki Ha certainly commented on the weakness of westerners ankles.

Just my (non-WC) input but a thought for you.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 23, 2007)

While I don't practice Wing Chun, I have been taught the first form, and also practice the Naihanchi kata of which the stance is very similar.  We had one gentleman how couldn't do the Naihanchi kata very well, and we asked our head instructor about it who offered that, most (not trying to stereotype etc etc) asians are of smaller stature and that putting the extra bit of pressure on their knees wouldn't cause much pain or discomfort.  It must be remembered that the knees aren't supposed to take a lot of pressure (hence so many injuries in sports etc).

I find to really work on squats and knee exercises/rotations before and after doing any kata such as Naihanchi etc, if done with patience and insistence the joints and muscles will gradually become stronger.​


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## Decker (Sep 24, 2007)

Perhaps what I'm thinking of may be a little off, but hopefully it isn't.

Do y'all Wing Chun practitioners train barefooted or with them minimalist CMA shoes? When I was much younger, probably about 12 - 13, I almost got my knees killed doing wushu, the problem persisting for a couple of years till I saw a physiotherapist.

Turned out I had low (but not flat) arches that were screwing up my knee/leg alignment, and my leg muscles were too pathetic to do anything. Solution: gym workouts to strengthen the muscles, and wearing motion control shoes while running to correct the arch problem.

Worked wonders till I (stupid lazy me) stopped the workouts.

Main point: Perhaps you could see a physiotherapist?

Hope that helped.


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 24, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> While I don't practice Wing Chun, I have been taught the first form, and also practice the Naihanchi kata of which the stance is very similar. We had one gentleman how couldn't do the Naihanchi kata very well, and we asked our head instructor about it who offered that, most (not trying to stereotype etc etc) asians are of smaller stature and that putting the extra bit of pressure on their knees wouldn't cause much pain or discomfort. It must be remembered that the knees aren't supposed to take a lot of pressure (hence so many injuries in sports etc).​
> 
> I find to really work on squats and knee exercises/rotations before and after doing any kata such as Naihanchi etc, if done with patience and insistence the joints and muscles will gradually become stronger.​


 
Thats right the knees cannot take that level of strain, but if the stance (and the first form) is perfomed properly there is no strain on the knees at all.


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## gblnking (Sep 24, 2007)

The WC stance isnt correct form from an ergonomical standpoint or is it a natural body position in general. So naturally its going to hurt. Like all ma stances its situational. The various stances through out the fighting arts are for just that. The actual fight. So really you shouldnt be in the stance that long. Unfortunately we are taught from vary young ages that more is better so we tend to over train. The idea of if I train in the stance for an hour and a half everyday will mean that when the time comes to a real world situation then Ill naturally move right into it might be true. But it might also cause some serious problems down the road. Like another poster wrote. Let your body tell you when youve had enough.


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 25, 2007)

gblnking said:


> The WC stance isnt correct form from an ergonomical standpoint or is it a natural body position in general. So naturally its going to hurt. Like all ma stances its situational. The various stances through out the fighting arts are for just that. The actual fight. So really you shouldnt be in the stance that long. Unfortunately we are taught from vary young ages that more is better so we tend to over train. The idea of if I train in the stance for an hour and a half everyday will mean that when the time comes to a real world situation then Ill naturally move right into it might be true. But it might also cause some serious problems down the road. Like another poster wrote. Let your body tell you when youve had enough.


 
Although I understand where you are coming from I would have to respectfully disagree, I do train in the stance for extended periods of time (i.e. 45-60 Minutes) and I feel no pain at all in my knees, the pain I do feel is a burning sensation at the base of my feet in particular at the ball area of my feet, this is an indication of the proper stance. Pain in the knees is as I have stated before, an indication that the stance is not being perfomed correctly, it is an indication also of tense energy residing in the leg, relaxation and practice are the keys to ensuring the proper execution of the YJKYM.


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## DungHo (Sep 25, 2007)

thank you bcbrnam77 for the comment.  I agree with you on that


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