# Kata Origin



## Seeking Zen (Nov 12, 2006)

In my last post I asked about foreign kata.  I was wondering... what is the origin of Kata Wanshu? I have researched and found several versions of the kata and the history of the kata.


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## searcher (Nov 12, 2006)

It is my understanding that it came from the Tomari lineage.   It is a compilation of the techniques from a merchant sailor by the same name.


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## Boomer (Nov 13, 2006)

I've heard this also...a bit different, perhaps.  In shotokan, we call the form "empi", and we trace it also to Tomari-te.  Kosaku Matsumora adapted it from a chinese envoy called Wang Ji or Wan Xi....from there, it came to the shorin ryu "Bushi" Sokon Matsumura and began it's trip thru shotokan.
Not sure how "Wang Ji" became "Wanshu" or "Wansu"...but remember, there were Okinawan dialects, so the translation from Chinese (probably Cantonese) to Okinawan to Japanese to English may have made the name a bit murky.


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## Seeking Zen (Nov 13, 2006)

Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!! Why do you suppose...it is so previlantly taught in whatever form in several styles. Is it because it is short, fairly simple...for newer students.  Or is the applicable bunkai so effective it is seen as an important core universal kata.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 13, 2006)

*Wansu/Wanshu/Empi, has many hidden techniques. It looks like a simple short kata, but in reality it has many hidden treasures. *
*First off it has several scooping or pulling blocks which leads to strikes to vital points. It has a takedown/throw depending on which version you do.  Learn the Shorin ryu versions as well as the Shotokan version.  You  will see many advantages to this kata.*


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## Seeking Zen (Nov 13, 2006)

The version I do doesn't have a throw that I am aware of...but hey I'm finding new things in kata everyday!  I will ask my Sensei which version I am doing as I am not sure.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 13, 2006)

*I have not seen a version of Wansu that does not have a throw in it. *
*Yes ask your sensei which version he imported. You are a Goju ryu stylist correct? I am sure the throw is in there somewhere.  Perhaps it is something more subtle like a takedown of a body shifting technique. This is another thing that Wansu has in it.*


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## searcher (Nov 13, 2006)

Seeking Zen said:


> Why do you suppose...it is so previlantly taught in whatever form in several styles. .


 
The reason is that the three main areas of influence in Okinawan MAs are relatively close together.   Many of the masters we know today would travel around and learn from each other.   Then as students went off to train farther away, they took the kata with them.   They would then teach it to another who would, in turn, teach them.    Many styles draw heavy influence from the Tomari, Shuri, Naha areas.


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## Seeking Zen (Nov 13, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> *I have not seen a version of Wansu that does not have a throw in it. *
> *Yes ask your sensei which version he imported. You are a Goju ryu stylist correct? I am sure the throw is in there somewhere.  Perhaps it is something more subtle like a takedown of a body shifting technique. This is another thing that Wansu has in it.*



Yes take downs are very previlant!


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 14, 2006)

Yasashii Do has a version of "Wansu" which is a highly condensed and cut down form of Empi we teach to the white belts. Empi is taught at Shodan. Both forms are derivitive of the same base form, and yes, there are throws, locks, takedowns, pressure point activations, hidden elbow strikes, knee checks, etc. all throughout. That was the first kata I ever learned, and it's still one of my favorites.


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## Seeking Zen (Nov 14, 2006)

I asked my Sensei last night on my way out.  He advised that the version I am learning comes from Chinese Kempo.  We are to talk more about it tonight when he is not teaching. Thanks again for all the great info!


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## twendkata71 (Nov 14, 2006)

*Someone on here said that they taught a condensed version of wansu from    Empi.  Empi comes from Wansu, Empi is the Shotokan version of wansu. *


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 14, 2006)

I understand that. What I mean by condensed is that the entire form is 23 moves long.  Empi/Wanshu is a lot longer than that.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 15, 2006)

*Ah, I see what you mean. Yes it is pretty short. Another very short kata in Shotokan is Wankan. It is very different from the original Okinawan version.*


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## TimoS (Nov 15, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> You are a Goju ryu stylist correct?



Goju has a version Wanshu in it? Well, you learn something new every day  Anybody know of a video where I could see it?


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## twendkata71 (Nov 15, 2006)

*Perhaps I misworded that. in the statement before that I stated that his sensei imported the kata. I was just making sure that I was addressing the person that is a Goju kai stylist, who posed the original question. Of course Wansu is not a Goju ryu kata. It is from the Shuri te,Tomari te lineage. *


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## TimoS (Nov 15, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> *Perhaps I misworded that. in the statement before that I stated that his sensei imported the kata. I was just making sure that I was addressing the person that is a Goju kai stylist, who posed the original question. Of course Wansu is not a Goju ryu kata. It is from the Shuri te,Tomari te lineage. *



Ok, now it makes sense  I just read too fast


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## Seeking Zen (Nov 15, 2006)

TimoS said:


> Goju has a version Wanshu in it? Well, you learn something new every day  Anybody know of a video where I could see it?



No, Goju doesn't, however, we do learn what we refer to as " foreign kata" as I had pointed out in another post. I was just curious as to the the origin of Wanshu as there was so many takes on its origin. So ....nope no video here


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## chinto (May 19, 2007)

Seeking Zen said:


> In my last post I asked about foreign kata. I was wondering... what is the origin of Kata Wanshu? I have researched and found several versions of the kata and the history of the kata.


 
The kata wanshu as far as I know was brought back to Okinawa from Taiwan by Chotoku Kyan, or at least the the insperation for it as it could have been modified from one from taiwan. there was a great deal of trade with taiwan as well as with the fukuin provance of china.


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## chinto (May 19, 2007)

searcher said:


> It is my understanding that it came from the Tomari lineage. It is a compilation of the techniques from a merchant sailor by the same name.


I beleave you may be refering to the kata Chinto. that kata was developed and compiled by Bushi Matsumura from the techniques from a shipwrecked sailor named Chinto. matsumura fought him but only aparently to a draw and both survived and became friends as I understand it. either way that is the origin of Chinto as I have learned it.


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