# "Why I left America"



## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2011)

http://www.bidstrup.com/exile.htm


I'm off on nights, see you in the morning


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## Archangel M (Feb 6, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> http://www.bidstrup.com/exile.htm
> 
> 
> I'm off on nights, see you in the morning





> I've long contended that America is headed for a fascist dictatorship, and have said so publicly on this web site as long ago as 1996. Yet, while many people, from across the political spectrum, have agreed with me in theory, they don't seem to think that serious repression that will inevitably accompany the fascism will ever happen in their lifetimes - a clear case of denial, *based on my own personal, recent experiences with death threats (which I traced to government IP addresses), illegal secret searches of my home, and monitoring trucks openly parked in front of my house for days at a stretch, and even an attempt on my life after I fled into exile*. What finally convinced me I was right, and convinced me to flee into exile, was when a fellow webmaster, whose site was no more seditious than mine, even if rhetorically more inflammatory, was arrested and convincted on a trumped up terrorism charge



[yt]TPMS6tGOACo[/yt]


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## Big Don (Feb 6, 2011)

Wow. What a load of crap. Unlike Cuba, which the left loves to celebrate, no official of the US government will stop anyone from leaving. Don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Can I borrow that guy's hat? I need some tinfoil...


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## Archangel M (Feb 6, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Bidstrup



> Scott Bidstrup (b. 12 January 1949 in Idaho Falls, Idaho) is an anti-capitalist, a skeptic and a self-taught electronics specialist who has written essays on a range of topics. The youngest of four siblings, he is a self-declared gay activist who suffers from Asperger's syndrome. Bidstrup currently lives in Tobosi, El Guarco, Costa Rica.[1]


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## Big Don (Feb 6, 2011)

> who suffers from Asperger's syndrome.


That isn't the only thing he suffers from... He left America, for the same reason he does everything else, he is mentally unbalanced.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 6, 2011)

If you are thinking about leaving, it's not as simple as you might think.  Another country has to WANT you to be there.  And then there is the fact that you are leaving people you love behind when you know what we're really looking at.  IMO, it's selfish to not try and change it and it's stupid to not make plans in case your political activity fails.  IMO, America isn't a lost cause yet.


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## crushing (Feb 6, 2011)

With Goldman Sachs pretty much taking over, I doubt he will be coming back anytime soon.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 6, 2011)

Bahamas and Bermuda want you to have a million bucks cash before they'll hand over citizenship. New Zealand's not as much but they have more paperwork.  Belize is only a couple hundred bucks, plus some background and medical tests.

What? Canada's ok, but it's too zarkin cold there now.


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Bidstrup


 

Sounds like a fun guy 

Would any of  you consider seriously someone ( not this guy necessarily) who said America was turning into a fascist state and think about it or would you dismiss it out of hand thinking it's impossible?


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## ballen0351 (Feb 7, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Sounds like a fun guy
> 
> Would any of you consider seriously someone ( not this guy necessarily) who said America was turning into a fascist state and think about it or would you dismiss it out of hand thinking it's impossible?


 Well since Fascism is normally considered the far right of the political spectrim and 2 years ago we elected the most far left president we have ever had Im pretty sure were  not turing into a fascist state. I also think the American people are to divided to ever be a true fascist state.


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Well since Fascism is normally considered the far right of the political spectrim and 2 years ago we elected the most far left president we have ever had Im pretty sure were not turing into a fascist state. I also think the American people are to divided to ever be a true fascist state.


 
It's interesting that to you Obama is left, to the rest of the world he's seen as conservative, we don't see you as having any left leaning politicians or at least none that have come to notice on the world stage. I think our ideas of what constitutes liberalism, socialism and conservatism are poles apart from each other. Like the word 'fanny' socialism has a whole different meaning to you than us.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 7, 2011)

"It's a big fat fanny" means such different things in English and Amerish. 
LOL


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## crushing (Feb 7, 2011)

The US political spectrum definately has me confounded.  I'm not sure anymore if I lean towards the authoritarian-anarchists of the left or towards the anarcho-authoritarians on the right.


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## Big Don (Feb 7, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It's interesting that to you Obama is left, to the rest of the world he's seen as conservative,


It's just as I always suspected, the rest of the world is on CRACK.


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2011)

Big Don said:


> It's just as I always suspected, the rest of the world is on CRACK.


 

As I said somewhere else on here, this is the land of 'I'm right and you're wrong'.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 7, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It's interesting that to you Obama is left, to the rest of the world he's seen as conservative, we don't see you as having any left leaning politicians or at least none that have come to notice on the world stage. I think our ideas of what constitutes liberalism, socialism and conservatism are poles apart from each other. Like the word 'fanny' socialism has a whole different meaning to you than us.


 So who would you consider Left leaning?


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> So who would you consider Left leaning?


 
I thik we all go by what we have experience of. Obama, Clinton etc seem to be akin to David Cameron's Conservatism while the Bush's are akin to Thatcher's. You don't seem to have a party that is even close to our Labour Party. Obama may seem to be more British and European Liberal which is nothing like your liberals, here Churchill was Liberal. I can't see anything Socialist about any of your politicans, not compared to ours.
Liberalism here has a long and hounourable past, it's the centre party here, it wants citizens rights, less government etc etc which sounds nothing like what your 'liberals' seem to say. Your politicians seem to be varying degrees of the Right with some who stray to the centre but no one that we could point to and recognise as being of the left.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 7, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> So who would you consider Left leaning?




This man is the one that leapt to my mind at that question.

http://www.attlee.org.uk/the-foundation/about-clem-attlee/

There haven't been many who have more than a little left-of-centre since then.  Mostly, other than Mrs. 'Adolf' Thatcher, who was more to the Right than most (being in the pocket of very rich business interests) we have had parties in power that have squabbled over the slightly-to-the-right-of-the-middle territory in their public debate.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 7, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> This man is the one that leapt to my mind at that question.
> 
> http://www.attlee.org.uk/the-foundation/about-clem-attlee/
> 
> There haven't been many who have more than a little left-of-centre since then. Mostly, other than Mrs. 'Adolf' Thatcher, who was more to the Right than most (being in the pocket of very rich business interests) we have had parties in power that have squabbled over the slightly-to-the-right-of-the-middle territory in their public debate.


 He reminds me of Chavez from Venezuela from that little bit I read on him


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> He reminds me of Chavez from Venezuela from that little bit I read on him


 
Good grief no! Attlee was what is now out of fashion, a man who believed in doing his duty and doing the best for the people of his country. He's possibly the best Prime Minister we've ever had. 

http://www.number10.gov.uk/history-and-tour/prime-ministers-in-history/clement-attlee

I love this quote of his.

Often the experts make the worst possible ministers in their own fields. In this country we prefer rule by amateurs​


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## Nomad (Feb 8, 2011)

When the right is so very very far to the right, the left ends up pretty close to what the rest of the world would consider "the center"...  on one side or another of it.  I agree strongly that there really is no national left-wing party in the US; it's more a matter of which _type_ of big business owns which party...


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2011)

Probably one of the problems non Americans have with understanding American politics is that we can't see politicians we can recognise as being different from each other idealogically. To us there is a sameness about all of them and it's hard to work out who is who. The sameness to us is that they are all varying degrees of conservative. That's why Obama seems to us to be cut from the same political cloth as David Cameron and not to be like anyone from the Labour Party here.
Is there any party in America that would correspond to our Labour Party?


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## Empty Hands (Feb 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Is there any party in America that would correspond to our Labour Party?



The Socialist Party or the Green Party.  Neither are a national party in the sense that they have not won any elections for national office.  Senator Bernie Sanders from Vermont is a self-described socialist, but not a member of any party (independent) and caucuses with the Democrats.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Good grief no! Attlee was what is now out of fashion, a man who believed in doing his duty and doing the best for the people of his country. He's possibly the best Prime Minister we've ever had.
> 
> http://www.number10.gov.uk/history-and-tour/prime-ministers-in-history/clement-attlee
> 
> ...


 I guess it was the nationalizing private industry that I thought they were the same


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> I guess it was the nationalizing private industry that I thought they were the same


 
Nationalising industries that provided services for the public was a big thing of the Labour Party, we had the railways, water, gas, electric companies etc nationalised. It was felt that the nation should benefit from providing these services to the people not private companies. It was felt too that the people owning their own companies was a better idea than making individuals rich and leaving everyone else poor. Some companies were nationalised to save them from bankruptcy so saving jobs.

I think Attlee was of his time, it was when people went into politics after spending time working at something else because they felt they had something to offer the country. It's an outmoded idea these days. Now people leave university and want to be a professional politician, it's just a career now not a calling.
Labour then was the working people's party even though many like Attlee were middle class. Class still has a lot to do with politics here, David Cameron is an Old Etonian, something that people either hold against him or consider it the essential thing for running the country. It's certainly true that the Old Etonian network is probably one of the most powerful and influential networks in the world.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Nationalising industries that provided services for the public was a big thing of the Labour Party, we had the railways, water, gas, electric companies etc nationalised. It was felt that the nation should benefit from providing these services to the people not private companies. It was felt too that the people owning their own companies was a better idea than making individuals rich and leaving everyone else poor. Some companies were nationalised to save them from bankruptcy so saving jobs.
> 
> .


 Sadly that does not work well here.  Everything the Govt touches can be done more efficent and cheaper if done by the private sector.  You dont need to look any farther then the US Postal service to see FED EX and UPS are hands down more cost effective and better run operations.

Its interesting that you can say you don't see a difference in our politicians because its kind of the same way I view your political system its a choice between left and far left.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 8, 2011)

I have to disagree on that one, Ballen.  Some things that are services to society as a whole are better done by the central authority rather than relying on the auspices of a private cartel.

The profit motive works well as an organising model for things that are not essential but is a very poor tool (unless you have enough money not to care) for provision of infrastructure services.

America's electricity supply network is a case in point (that being my area of professional expertise these days).  It's appalling.  Admittedly there is a vast area to cover but the lack of safety mechanisms or redundancy or reserve capacity was a real shock {yeah, electricity supply pun attack !} to me when I first encountered it.

Britains Grid has decayed almost to inoperability thanks to being put into private hands by Thatcher - they have profit stripped for three decades and have not maintained the infrastructure or planned for future demand.

Such things need to be managed for provision of service, not for skimming of profit.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Sadly that does not work well here. Everything the Govt touches can be done more efficent and cheaper if done by the private sector. You dont need to look any farther then the US Postal service to see FED EX and UPS are hands down more cost effective and better run operations.
> 
> Its interesting that you can say you don't see a difference in our politicians because its kind of the same way I view your political system its a choice between left and far left.


 

LOL at you seeing the Iron Lady, Maggie Thatcher as left leaning, hell, she was to the right of Genghis Khan! The Tory Party is the party of the 'toffs', the rich, the landowning, the titled and the Establishment, it's centuries old and could no more be left leaning than the Pope could marry. They de-nationalised the industries and companies here, sold of as much as they could and genrally made the rich richer and the poor poorer.


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## WC_lun (Feb 8, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Sadly that does not work well here. Everything the Govt touches can be done more efficent and cheaper if done by the private sector. You dont need to look any farther then the US Postal service to see FED EX and UPS are hands down more cost effective and better run operations.
> 
> Its interesting that you can say you don't see a difference in our politicians because its kind of the same way I view your political system its a choice between left and far left.


 
This isn't always true.  Medicare, a nationalised health insurance, runs on about an 11% operating cost.  Most private insurance companies run on an 18 to 21% operating cost.


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## David43515 (Feb 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Sounds like a fun guy
> 
> Would any of you consider seriously someone ( not this guy necessarily) who said America was turning into a fascist state and think about it or would you dismiss it out of hand thinking it's impossible?


 
I wouldn`t dismiss it out of hand, but I would also stop to consider the source. This blogger seems to be off his nut and so I`d take everything he said with several grains of salt. I think that instead of "fascist" I would have said "totalitarian" because both the left and the right seem to be more power hungry.

I have to admit though that I was practically dumb-struck when you said that the rest of the world views Obama as a conservative. My general view of Europe is that they`re so much more left-leaning than the US that they might view him as a moderate or a centrist....but as a conservative? Really? It`s like you told me that the rest of the world believes the sun actually rises in the southwest. I wouldn`t know where to begin forming a reply. I thought it was very interesting though that you said America doesn`t seem to have any well known liberals, just varying degrees of conservatives. Hearing what the neighbors think goes on in a house  is always enlightening.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2011)

David43515 said:


> I wouldn`t dismiss it out of hand, but I would also stop to consider the source. This blogger seems to be off his nut and so I`d take everything he said with several grains of salt. I think that instead of "fascist" I would have said "totalitarian" because both the left and the right seem to be more power hungry.
> 
> I have to admit though that I was practically dumb-struck when you said that the rest of the world views Obama as a conservative. My general view of Europe is that they`re so much more left-leaning than the US that they might view him as a moderate or a centrist....but as a conservative? Really? It`s like you told me that the rest of the world believes the sun actually rises in the southwest. I wouldn`t know where to begin forming a reply. I thought it was very interesting though that you said America doesn`t seem to have any well known liberals, just varying degrees of conservatives. Hearing what the neighbors think goes on in a house is always enlightening.


 

When Ballen however said he sees our politicians as all left, just various degrees it has the same effect on me lol! 

I think we probably could see Obama as Conservative because we don't have a left leaning ( to our definition of left) high profiled American politician to compare him with so we compare him with our Tories and our Labour politicians. He seems to fit in more with the Tories than the Labour lot. He has all the trappings too of a Tory lol.
The Socialist and Labour movement we are used to are far more in your face about themselves, far more left if you like than we see Obama as.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 9, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> This isn't always true. Medicare, a nationalised health insurance, runs on about an 11% operating cost. Most private insurance companies run on an 18 to 21% operating cost.


 Medicare also sets its own rates that it pays for services and doctors have to either eat the difference or raise rates on privately insured to make up the costs and in my opinion medicare gives substandard care as compared to a private insurance policy.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 9, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> I have to disagree on that one, Ballen. Some things that are services to society as a whole are better done by the central authority rather than relying on the auspices of a private cartel.
> 
> The profit motive works well as an organising model for things that are not essential but is a very poor tool (unless you have enough money not to care) for provision of infrastructure services.
> 
> ...


Im not saying it cant be done and it may work well in other placers Im simply saying It has not worked well here in the US. Maybe its to big of an area, or the Govt itself is just to big but It seems whatever the Govt. put its hands in gets bloated and over funded. I see it every year around this time with the Budget ending in July they come to us and say hey we got all this Fed Govt money left we dont need for this year so get a wish list together of items you want and well buy as much as we can. Nobody ever wants to return the money because they you dont get as much the next year so they waist so much if the money on things we dont really need. 1 Example just this week we asked for a few new sets of Binoculars for our unit. So we submitted to get 4 basic sets cost about $200 each. My supervisor said we have to spend more then that so he ordered 6 $400 sets and 3 $6000 spotting scopes.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 9, 2011)

*Why I left the UK for the Southern California:*

1) Freedom of Speech-I can express preety much any opinion I like, without the fear of being arrested for it.

2)Very little surveillance-The only cameras here in SoCal are either on private property, or for catching speeders on the freeways. In the UK the government have put cameras everywhere, monitoring all activity. It's positively Orwellian.

3)Beaches-Please compare Laguna Beach to Blackpool Beach.

4)Women-say no more, my mates and I have a little game we play on the beach, it's called "Spot the Brit lasses. We usually need polarized lenses to even look at them.

5)A True Meritocracy-Tell me when in the UK they've had a black Head of State.

It amazes me that the issue of migration to the UK from the US even comes up in this forum as an issue. Many Americans have gone to live in the UK, but usually it's for business reasons or because they want to connect with their roots. I know many ex pat Brits over here in SoCal, me being one of them. I don't know of any who would want to go back to Blighty to live for a second. Most of the lads are living here illegally, and hate the prospect of ever returning.


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## Archangel M (Feb 9, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> *Why I left the UK for the Southern California:*
> 
> 1) Freedom of Speech-I can express preety much any opinion I like, without the fear of being arrested for it.
> 
> ...



Grass is greener...

Foreign women are "exotic"....

The "usual" is boring....

We don't know how good we have it.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 9, 2011)

I became a US citizen in August of this year. It was one of the best days of my life. JAG did all the paperwork and the government didn't charge me a penny. The wife and I are going to Ireland next year for a visit, but if I never go back to Blighty, it'll be too soon!


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## Sukerkin (Feb 9, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> *Why I left the UK for the Southern California:*
> 
> 1) Freedom of Speech-I can express preety much any opinion I like, without the fear of being arrested for it.
> 
> ...



:chuckles:  It just goes to show what they say about it taking all sorts.

I'm not looking to gainsay or make out that my views are 'right' but let me see what I think on those points:

1) Freedom of speach, hmm, in theory great ... except when people use it to just be arrogant and rude as if it was some inalienable right.  There are few opinions you'll actually get arrested for over here - probably pretty much the same things you'd get arrested for in America.

2) Surveillance ... aye.  This one we are matched horses on in our views.  It's ludicrous.

3) Beaches - yeuk.  Can't be doing with them.  I'm a forests type of chap myself.

4) Women - California Dreaming?  Not for me.  Plastic perfection is not my idea of beauty.

5) True Meritocracy?  That's buying the story not the reality in my view.  But on the example given, no we've not had a black head of state yet ... but we have had a woman as the head of state for a good portion of our history and a female Prime Minister too.

There are undoubtedly some parts of America I would like to live in (the colder more foresty bits I reckon ).  But the system itself I would not like to live under so, as I've said before, half jokingly, I wouldn't live in America if you paid me .

Now Canada on the other hand ... .


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 9, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> :chuckles:2)
> Now Canada on the other hand ... .


 
That means we'd have to set another place setting at the table after iaido practice....you do scotch Mark...right?


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