# You could have heard a pin drop.



## searcher (May 30, 2009)

*I am not sure if this should be in here or somewhere else.    So, if it needs to be moved then please do so.    I got this in an e-mail form my brother-in-law.*


YOU COULD HAVE HEARD A PIN DROP 

When in England , at a fairly large conference, Dr.  Condi Rice was asked 
by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were  just an example 
of empire building  by George Bush. 

She answered by saying, "Over the years, the United  States has sent many 
of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight  for freedom 
beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for  in 
return is 
enough to bury those that did not return." 

You could have heard a pin drop. 


There was a conference in France where a number of  international engineers 
were taking part, including French and American. 

During a break, one of the French engineers came back  into the room saying 
"Have you heard the latest dumb stunt Bush has done? He has  sent an 
aircraft carrier to Indonesia to help the tsunami victims. What does he 
intended 
to do, bomb them?" 

A Boeing engineer stood up and replied quietly: "Our  carriers have three 
hospitals on board that can treat several hundred people;  they are nuclear 
powered and can supply emergency electrical power to shore  facilities; they 
have three cafeterias with the capacity to feed 3,000 people  three meals a 
day, they can produce several thousand gallons of fresh water from  sea 
water each day, and they carry half a dozen helicopters for use in 
transporting 
victims and injured to and from their flight deck. We have eleven  such 
ships; how many does France have?" 

You could have heard a pin drop. 



A U.S. Navy Admiral was attending a naval conference  that included 
Admirals from the U.S. , English, Canad ian, Australian and French  Navies. 

At a cocktail reception, he found himself standing  with  large group of 
Officers that included personnel from most of those  countries. Everyone was 
chatting away in English as they sipped their drinks but  a French admiral 
suddenly complained that, whereas Europeans learn many  languages, Americans 
learn only English.  He then asked, "Why is it that we  always have to speak 
English in these conferences rather than speaking French?" 

Without hesitating, the American Admiral replied,  "Maybe it's because the 
Brits, Canadians, Aussies and Americans arranged it so  you wouldn't have to 
speak German." 

You could have heard a pin drop. 



AND THIS STORY FITS RIGHT IN WITH THE ABOVE.... Robert  Whiting, an elderly 
gentleman of 83, arrived in Paris by plane. At French  Customs, he took a 
few minutes to locate his passport in his carry on. 

"You have been to France before, monsieur?" the  customs officer asked 
sarcastically. 

Mr. Whiting admitted that he had been to France  previously. 

"Then you should know enough to have your passport  ready." 

The American said, ''The last time I was here, I  didn't have to show it." 

"Impossible. Americans always have to show their  passports on arrival in 
France !" 

The American senior gave the Frenchman a long hard l  ook. Then he quietly 
explained, "Well, when I came ashore at Omaha Beach on  D-Day in 1944 to 
help liberate this country, I couldn't find a single Frenchmen  to show a 
passport to." 

You could have heard a pin drop. 


If you are proud to be an American, pass this on!  If not delete it.


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## Tez3 (May 30, 2009)

While I appreciate the feeling behind it, the first isn't exactly true and is much simplified. The question wasn't about empire building at all. The respondant was Colin Powell to the former not current Archbishop Of Canterbury in 2003.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/powell.asp

I understand that you want to make America look good but don't make George Carey look bad while you are doing it. It was a discussion not political statements.


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## yorkshirelad (May 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> While I appreciate the feeling behind it, the first isn't exactly true and is much simplified. The question wasn't about empire building at all. The respondant was Colin Powell to the former not current Archbishop Of Canterbury in 2003.
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/powell.asp
> 
> I understand that you want to make America look good but don't make George Carey look bad while you are doing it. It was a discussion not political statements.


 
I like the spirit of the e-mail. After reading the text in the 'snopes' website although some of the details are incorrect, it is plain to see that Carey's question was designed to put Powell on the spot. It would be nice if high ranking European politicians/religious leaders thanked the US from time to time instead of the incessant finger pointing, ridicule and bickering the US in subjected to.

On his recent trip to Europe, it seems that Obama thought it prudent to apologise for the behaviour of the US. Why not instead remind Europe of the debt of gratitude it owes to the PEOPLE of the US?


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## Tez3 (May 30, 2009)

On the spot? No it was a conference where people were debating, should the Archbishop then have asked easy questions?

this is from an American educational website and may explain perhaps why Europe is grateful for American help but doesn't need it rubbed in.


*The war had helped the economy recover. Similar to the situation after World War I, America emerged from the Second World War with a strong economy and relatively few casualties. The war, however, devastated other nations on both sides of the struggle. In the Soviet Union, for example, the number of casualties in Germany's siege of Leningrad exceeded the combined total of British and American wartime deaths. *
The United States possessed the atomic bomb and was now the most powerful nation in the world. 
American were ready for a rest, just as they had been after World War I.
http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/lectures/lecture21.html

America came out of the war stronger, richer and more powerful, Europe was left with destruction on a massive scale, refugees, split countries, communist dictators, famines, shortages and poverty. its taken us up till now to get back on an even keel. some countries still haven't. 

Britain and the Commonwealth have followed America into wars and supported them, Australia lost soldiers in Vietnam, we were Allies in Korea. we have lost and are losing hundreds now along with your troops Iraq and Afghanistan.


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## elder999 (May 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> On the spot? No it was a conference where people were debating, should the Archbishop then have asked easy questions?
> 
> this is from an American educational website and may explain perhaps why Europe is grateful for American help but doesn't need it rubbed in.
> 
> ...




In reference to #2, Britain *also* possessed the atomic bomb, which we shared with them quite readily, as they had supplied a great deal of talent to the Manhattan Project in developing it, and were our allies throughout the war. While they might not have actually tested  a working weapon until 1952, they had all the know-how to make one,  and access to the necessary materials at the close of WWII.


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## Tez3 (May 30, 2009)

elder999 said:


> [/list]In reference to #2, Britain *also* possessed the atomic bomb, which we shared with them quite readily, as they had supplied a great deal of talent to the Manhattan Project in developing it, and were our allies throughout the war. While they might not have actually tested a working weapon until 1952, they had all the know-how to make one, and access to the necessary materials at the close of WWII.


 
The site and the statement is an American one not ours.


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## elder999 (May 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> The site and the statement is an American one not ours.


 
Well, #2 is *wrong*. :lol:

Your lot had a big hand in introducing that particular atrocity to the world-not as big as ours was, but you were right there with us.That's why Churchill knew all about it before Truman did.....(that, and of course that he was the _head of state..._ )


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## yorkshirelad (May 30, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Well, #2 is *wrong*. :lol:
> 
> Your lot had a big hand in introducing that particular atrocity to the world-not as big as ours was, but you were right there with us.That's why Churchill knew all about it before Truman did.....(that, and of course that he was the _head of state..._ )


Good try, George was Head of State, Churchill was the head of the government.


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## elder999 (May 30, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> Good try, George was Head of State, Churchill was the head of the government.


 

Interesting, then, that Churchill knew all about what was, from its inception, a joint American-British project, but the royal family, including the titular Head of State, was not informed until its completion......

....of course, the fact that theroyal family is German in descent, and that some had Nazi sympathies early on might  had something to do with that-not a lot of trust on the part of  General Lesley Groves there......


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## Sukerkin (May 30, 2009)

Is that true?

EDIT:  Ah, I tried to edit this to elaborate and whilst I was battling with my browser (which triggered an anti-phising response to something) got a little tied up.  I've lost what I wrote but the core of it was that I was just going to say that there was some mistrust of the monarchy in political circles at that time due to the abdication and that might have some bearing on the matter.


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## MA-Caver (May 30, 2009)

The last one is also just a variation of one where instead of landing on the beaches at Normandy the guy flew bombing missions over Germany... you could've heard a pin drop. 

Stories like these have to be taken with a grain of salt. They're near urban legends and thus have SOME truth to them... but more n likely a clever writer put better words or wittier responses to the actual replies. 

Still they're a good read, but taken with a grain of salt. I'd like to see verification of authenticity for them... each of them. Mainly because it seems that it's French bashing at best.


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## elder999 (May 30, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Is that true?


 

"Yes" to all of it.

Edward VIII, the Duke of Windsor, the man who would have been king if he hadn't abdicated to his brother, Albert (know you know all this,Suk, just pointing it out for others) was thought to have Nazi sympathies-though he may or may not have-and spent the war as Governor of the Bahamas because of it, and a possible Nazi plot, that he may or may not have been aware of, to have him take over the British government and form one more sympathetic to Germany. 

If Leslie Groves had had his way, Britain would have had no part in the Manhattan Project at all-a near impossibility. Of course, the man also tried to ensure that the U.S. gain control of all the uranium in the world-a true impossibility...:lol: Oddly enough, I think he was only one or two generations removed from Britain himself...

George VI didn't know about the atomic bomb until the Trinity test.


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## Ken Morgan (May 30, 2009)

You dont have to be an American to appreciate the OPs point or subsequent discussion. Its sad to say but I almost think that its the English speaking world that gets involved in shaping and stabilizing our world. With the US being the largest in terms of population and wealth, it will naturally take the lead. Hell Id much prefer the USA being the worlds policeman then the likes of China, Russia, Brazil or India.

I wrote an article a couple of years back for a small paper up here, there are many Canadian political rants, but I think our American friends may appreciate the positive tone. Most people are easy going but you always get some nut jobs that attack everything the US does, I just want to smack upside the head and make the open their eyes. Last article. http://guelphfirst.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html


Yes I know terrible primary source material but, Wiki states that the Manhattan project while being primarily American had substantial input from the UK and Canada. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project


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## yorkshirelad (May 30, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Interesting, then, that Churchill knew all about what was, from its inception, a joint American-British project, but the royal family, including the titular Head of State, was not informed until its completion......
> 
> ....of course, the fact that theroyal family is German in descent, and that some had Nazi sympathies early on might had something to do with that-not a lot of trust on the part of General Lesley Groves there......


 
Edward was the Nazi 'sympathizer' or appeaser. As far as I'm concerned he should have been shot for treason for his connection to Hitler. 

Regardless of what the Royal family knew or didn't know, the King was the Head of State, period. Nothing you can churn up from history will change that mate. Remember Churchill himself swore an oath to the King.


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## CoryKS (May 30, 2009)

Are you sure that Ben Franklin didn't say that first?  Or Winston Churchill?


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## elder999 (May 30, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Yes I know terrible primary source material but, Wiki states that the Manhattan project while being primarily American had substantial input from the UK and Canada. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project


 
And I stated that it was, from its inception, a _joint_ U.S.-British project. 

I mean, after all, I do live and work here-I even know some people who were around at the time-that are *still* around.....


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## Ken Morgan (May 30, 2009)

elder999 said:


> And I stated that it was, from its inception, a _joint_ U.S.-British project.
> 
> I mean, after all, I do live and work here-I even know some people who were around at the time-that are *still* around.....


 
LOL! That's what I get for rushing through a thread....


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## CuongNhuka (May 30, 2009)

searcher said:


> The only amount of land we have ever asked for in
> return is
> enough to bury those that did not return."


 
Uhh, should I be the one to point out that the US buries it's dead _Stateside._


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## crushing (May 30, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> Uhh, should I be the one to point out that the US buries it's dead _Stateside._



Yes, you should be the one to point that out.  There are over 20 cemeteries, mostly in Europe, that contain about125,000 graves of US soldiers.  Not to mention the bodies of soldiers never found or determined to be US soldiers.

There is a documentary called Hallowed Grounds about those cemeteries.  Here is the official link:  http://www.pbs.org/hallowedgrounds/


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## Tez3 (May 30, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Well, #2 is *wrong*. :lol:
> 
> Your lot had a big hand in introducing that particular atrocity to the world-not as big as ours was, but you were right there with us.That's why Churchill knew all about it before Truman did.....(that, and of course that he was the _head of state..._ )


 
Actually you've missed my point, I'm not saying we weren't involved, I was pointing out what this particular American educational site was teaching.


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## Big Don (May 31, 2009)

*CuongNhuka* said this 				


> Uhh, should I be the one to point out that the US buries it's dead _Stateside_


Crushing said this





crushing said:


> Yes, you should be the one to point that out.  There are over 20 cemeteries, mostly in Europe, that contain about125,000 graves of US soldiers.  Not to mention the bodies of soldiers never found or determined to be US soldiers.
> 
> There is a documentary called Hallowed Grounds about those cemeteries.  Here is the official link:  http://www.pbs.org/hallowedgrounds/


You could have heard a pin drop...


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## CuongNhuka (May 31, 2009)

crushing said:


> There are over 20 cemeteries, mostly in Europe, that contain about 125,000 graves of US soldiers.


 
The amount of swearing I need to do right now would ensure my being banned from this site and sued. Please just tell me that those graves are from WWII. If they're from Iraq I'll have to kill my recruiter.


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## Big Don (May 31, 2009)

cuongnhuka said:


> the amount of swearing i need to do right now would ensure my being banned from this site and sued. Please just tell me that those graves are from wwii. If they're from iraq i'll have to kill my recruiter.


WWI and WWII


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## Big Don (May 31, 2009)

Nearly 200,000 casualties at the Battle of the Bulge alone...


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## Bruno@MT (May 31, 2009)

searcher said:


> At a cocktail reception, he found himself standing  with  large group of
> Officers that included personnel from most of those  countries. Everyone was
> chatting away in English as they sipped their drinks but  a French admiral
> suddenly complained that, whereas Europeans learn many  languages, Americans
> ...



The Americans did help for sure. But they were comfortable enough pretending there was no war until they were attacked themselves. Even then, they only got involved in Europe because Japan and Germany had linked their fates with a pact.

If we have anyone to thank, it's the Russians who sacrificed millions, fighting their way from moscow to Berlin.
While the Americans did speed up the process of ending the war, it was already turning in favor of the allied forces by the time they arrived.

The US did make a significant difference in the timeframe, but let's not oversimplify things to the point where your message is just propaganda.
There are just as many black pages in the US history as in ours, and pretty much anyone elses.


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## Sukerkin (May 31, 2009)

True and it's something that 'history' really needs to remember but I don't think that *Searcher* was attempting to make a point that elevated America above the rest of us - maybe I missed a post, I'll go back and read before I put my foot in it .


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## Bruno@MT (May 31, 2009)

Aditionally, when Americans are making fun of the French, they are conveniently forgetting that without the French support during their war for independence, their founding fathers would have probably been hung, drawn and quartered for high treason.

http://www.google.be/search?hl=en&q=french+support+american+revolution&meta=&aq=0&oq=french+support+
French support was a decisive factor.

I am all in favor of patriotism, but it should be more than parroting propaganda, quoting punchlines and hollow symbolism.


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## Sukerkin (May 31, 2009)

It's one of the reasons why I'm such a strong advocate of people being aware of their history both the good and the bad.  It's also why I get so stuffy when Hollywood makes such travesties as 'Braveheart', 'The Patriot' or 'U-571' because that becomes history to people whose only contact with the subject is the movies.

If we don't take care to recall what past steps lead us to where we are and substitute stories instead then you end up with Korea ... has anyone seen any of their supposed history books?  It's not a world I recognise :lol:.


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## mook jong man (May 31, 2009)

Well down here in Australia we certainly appreciate the help we got from the Yanks in fighting the Japanese in the Pacific theatre .

We were pretty damn close to spending the rest of our lives eating sushi, our small forces were already drained from fighting the Germans in Europe and elsewhere .

 The Japanese were already in the Solomon Islands and New Guinea , wasn't too far till they got to the top of Australia .They had even started bombing raids on Darwin. Thats how dire the cicumstances were at that time.

 A little known fact and one that even most Australians don't know about is that Darwin right at the top of Australia there , had more bombs dropped on it by the Japanese than what Pearl Harbour did .

 The Australian government kept it hushed up so as not to alarm the Australian people.
  There was no way in hell we could of stopped the Japanese by ourselves , so the Australian people will forever owe a debt to the American people for their help.


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## arnisador (May 31, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> The Americans did help for sure. But they were comfortable enough pretending there was no war until they were attacked themselves. Even then, they only got involved in Europe because Japan and Germany had linked their fates with a pact.



This isn't so. Americans had great sympathy for England in particular, and was anti-Nazi. The Americans helped in soft ways until they were once again dragged into a conflict on another continent(s). Saying that the Americans were 'comfortable' as a second European-induced World War raged is absolutely incorrect. They remembered WWI all too well. Americans wanted to help but getting your country to enter such a huge conflict "just to help" isn't so easy a task. But the U.S. didn't get involved in Europe "only" because of a German-Japanese agreement. We helped our allies...again.



> If we have anyone to thank, it's the Russians who sacrificed millions, fighting their way from moscow to Berlin.
> While the Americans did speed up the process of ending the war, it was already turning in favor of the allied forces by the time they arrived.
> 
> The US did make a significant difference in the timeframe



I'm not sure it's quite so obvious how things would've turned out if the Germans had had to fight a war on only one major front (delaying the invasion of England as needed). The U.S. presence was certainly a morale-lifter in a way that the unpredictable Russians weren't--including that it was clear that the Americans' _only_ goal was to help and liberate. (and think what the aftermath might've been post-May 1945 if the Americans hadn't been in Germany too.) But yes the Russians in the East made a huge difference. 

Now, what about the related war in the Pacific? Who was waging that? The Japanese may have been a less direct threat to England, but to a World at War they certainly mattered.



Bruno@MT said:


> Aditionally, when Americans are making fun of the French, they are conveniently forgetting that without the French support during their war for independence, their founding fathers would have probably been hung, drawn and quartered for high treason.



I think most people do realize that--it's heavily taught in schools--but the French make it just too easy to lob the occasional insult at them.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 31, 2009)

Someone needs to look into Lend-Lease.  The Russians were getting their asses pushed back hard until US provided weapons and ammunition started to flood into the country. It was only with the US's help, combined with German tactical and strategic errors that turned the tide on that front.

As to the European and African front's, the Germans pushed the Brits half way across Africa. It took Monty to turn that tide, and between him and Patton, they pushed the Germans and Italians out of Africa, across Sicily, and into the boot of Italy. Lets keep in mind that Patton's 7th army took the brunt of the Sicily campaign capturing both Palermo and Mesina.  Patton and Monty resumed their rivalry in Europe and pushed the Germans back, hard. The only reasons the Russians made it to Berlin, was due to politics, as the US was within reach well before the Russian advance came up, a fact that pissed Georgie off to no end.

The war was hardly over when the US entered. When they did, the Brits had been holding on by their iron willpower, France was a conquered country, and most of Northern Africa was under Axis control. A year later, the map was quite different, with Italy on the wires, and Germany in retreat.

American aid in WW2 was huge.


> A total of $50.1 billion (equivalent to nearly $700 billion at 2007 prices) worth of supplies were shipped: $31.4 billion to Britain, $11.3 billion to the Soviet Union, $3.2 billion to France and $1.6 billion to China. Reverse Lend Lease comprised services (like rent on air bases) that went to the U.S. It totaled $7.8 billion, of which $6.8 billion came from the British and the Commonwealth. Apart from that, there were no repayments of supplies that arrived before the termination date, the terms of the agreement providing for their return or destruction. (Supplies after that date were sold to Britain at a discount, for £1,075 million, using long-term loans from the U.S.) Canada operated a similar program that sent $4.7 billion in supplies to Britain and Soviet Union.[2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend_lease



On a side note, regarding my own personal disdain for the French.
The stories I've heard from several veterans, was that when the US forces were leaving France at the wars end, the French would line the streets and make obscene gestures, and tell them to "get out". So grateful were they that American's shed their blood to save their country when they themselves couldn't, that they would shower the trains with rocks in joy.  So, to me, while the US can say thank you to the French for loaning us some money, and selling us some guns back in our infancy, we have more than repaid that debt, with high interest by our own sacrifices in recovering and restoring their own country to them.  It also I am sure chaffs them terribly to owe the British the same debt for saving their collective asses, though they seem to forget that often I hear.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 31, 2009)

big don said:


> *cuongnhuka* said this
> 
> crushing said this
> you could have heard a pin drop...


 
Owned


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## Sukerkin (May 31, 2009)

A most informative post, *Cap'n Bob*.  

I must confess that I had forgotten about the aid to the Russians at certain points in the war - given that the Arctic Convoys was a study of mine in times gone by that is particularly embarassing.

I would say that because of the tendency of the 'received media history' to overstate the impact of the American prescence in the European theatre, people sometimes become negatively reactive to it.  I'm honest enough to admit that I do at times (tho' some of that is again opinions inherited from my grandfathers and certain personality clashes between allied commanders).

Would 'we' still have won?  That's a tough one to call in terms of achieving any sort of victory.  We certainly would not have driven the German's out of Western Europe and I suspect that the Russians would have eaten them up from the East instead.  

I feel that without the Lend Lease agreement we certainly would more likely have been forced to enter into a treaty with Hitler (which he actually wanted), not because we didn't have the will to fight but because we would't have had enough to fight with.  For such a treaty to be signed, Churchill would have had to go because he would not have stood for it.

The Pacific theatre is a whole other ball game.  Once we got our feet back under us out there then we gave a decent account of ourselves but the opening of the war was a complete shambles for the Empire .  The American's can be justifiably proud of their efforts there and blow their own trumpet as much as they please - it can hardly be called bragging if it's something that was actually done after all :tup:.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 31, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> A most informative post, *Cap'n Bob*.
> 
> I must confess that I had forgotten about the aid to the Russians at certain points in the war - given that the Arctic Convoys was a study of mine in times gone by that is particularly embarassing.
> 
> ...


 

Maybe you can comment on something I have heard as to its veracity.

I have heard that when Churchill was delivering his famous " we shall go on to the end, so much to so few, we shall fight in the streets" speech" that after the radio cut he is said to have added, "But by God, I do not know what we shall fight WITH".


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## Big Don (May 31, 2009)

I, for one, haven't forgotten the help the French gave us during the American Revolution. But, then, I haven't forgotten the help the French gave the Nazi's in WWII either. That's the thing about memory, it isn't always fun...


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## Andy Moynihan (May 31, 2009)

Look, if we're gonna go down that road, everyone's done ****ty things to EVERYONE at some point in their dealings. that's by and large what humans DO.


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## Bruno@MT (May 31, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Look, if we're gonna go down that road, everyone's done ****ty things to EVERYONE at some point in their dealings. that's by and large what humans DO.



Exactly. Noone can claim moral high ground in cases like this. Not the French, not the US and not Belgium.

I *really *appreciate the help we got from the US in WW2. I really do.
But I get tired of the 'we saved your ***' arrogance that too many seem to accept unthinkingly.


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## Sukerkin (May 31, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Maybe you can comment on something I have heard as to its veracity.
> 
> I have heard that when Churchill was delivering his famous " we shall go on to the end, so much to so few, we shall fight in the streets" speech" that after the radio cut he is said to have added, "But by God, I do not know what we shall fight WITH".


 
Hmm, I have heard of this before, Andy but I don't know if it's true or not.  It will be no surprise that I have several books by and about Churchill and I don't recall reading such a thing in them - it has been quite some time since I last delved them, however.

What I can say is that after the well known "fight them" segment, the speach actually ends with:

*and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.*

Which means that the noted comment wouldn't 'fit' very well.  Nontheless, I shall research this a little during the week and see if I can't get a more definitive answer for you.


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## elder999 (Jun 1, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> Uhh, should I be the one to point out that the US buries it's dead _Stateside._


 

We've buried our dead all over.

here ya go, _Marine_:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6f_FvZpm3g


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 1, 2009)

http://www.contracostatimes.com/bay-area-living/ci_12399583


> *Remembering the fallen: Overseas cemeteries honor U.S. war dead*
> 
> Cemeteries overseas honor U.S. war dead
> By Jim Winnerman
> ...





> "They were built to reflect the sacrifices Americans made fighting for freedom, and to attract people to come and reflect on the accomplishments made by the deceased," Sell says.





> Only American forces and those serving with them, such as the Red Cross, are buried in the cemeteries. All are also closed to new burials, except when remains from a long-ago war are discovered.
> 
> 
> From the Philippines to the United Kingdom, the headstones tell silent stories of sacrifice. Manila American Cemetery is the final resting place for 28 men awarded the Medal of Honor. Several cemeteries contain graves of multiple sets of brothers buried side by side. The Brookwood American Cemetery outside London holds the graves of 114 shipmates of the USS Tampa, sunk in 1918 by a German submarine.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Jun 1, 2009)

I think Bobs post does prove that people are grateful for the sacrifices of young lives given by America, I don't think thats ever in doubt but it's a quiet thing,* held in the hearts of people* who show their appreciation in many ways such as that shown above.

However it is very crass that some expect people to gush and fawn over America as the saviour of the world and constantly want us to go on our knees and say thank you, thank you all the time.

The gratitude is there, don't ever doubt it but don't cheapen it or poison it by trying to rub our noses in it with phrases like 'oh if it wasn't for us you'd be speaking German now' and 'we saved your butts'. We were and are Allies, it doesn't behove anyone to claim they did more than another, gave more or suffered more. It's not a pissing contest, it was a dark and desparate hour in mankinds history, so much suffering, death and destruction so more than a little dignity is called for when remembering this time.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 1, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> The Americans did help for sure. But they were comfortable enough pretending there was no war until they were attacked themselves. Even then, they only got involved in Europe because Japan and Germany had linked their fates with a pact.
> 
> If we have anyone to thank, it's the Russians who sacrificed millions, fighting their way from moscow to Berlin.
> While the Americans did speed up the process of ending the war, it was already turning in favor of the allied forces by the time they arrived.
> ...


 
American arrogance has us as the greatest contributors to the defeat of Nazi Germany, and the reluctant hero's who bore the greatest brunt of the war. I lived in Bruxelles for a bit as a student, and had the pleasure and privilege of travelling around the continent quite a bit on holiday.

I wish so many of the dumb hicks I share a country with could have seen what happens to the consciousness of a people when the tumults of war have devastated their own backyard. When food was so scarce, stews were made from grass and old leather...for months on end. When elder sisters would sell their bodies to US G.I.'s for rations, so they could feed their younger siblings...parents having been executed by the Nazi's. (which side should they thank? The Germans who shot their parents in the head, or the Americans who baited them with sustenance to act like whores?).

I wish my hick compatriots who think Europeans should grovel in thanks could see the shrines made out of things like tanks that ran out of gas. A tank breaks down in a march through the countryside. The locals, so happy that help has come, keep it freshly painted and covered in flowers to this day. And you want to accuse them of being ingrateful? Get out more, and grow up.

I wish my hick compatriots that insist Europeans suck up all pride for the rest of their lives could meet and lunch with the Europeans who had to try to rebuild a continent after the liberation. We bombed parts of Germany into the dark ages. I knew a Dutch woman who, after seeing the Germans kill her parents, her sister, her nieces and nephews; had been raped and beaten and broken by the occupying forces; and after having been in the resistance where members killed each other on suspicion alone, joined a humanitarian brigade that ran trains into Germany to fetch German children starving in the streets, schlep them to better grounds to feed them and nurse them back to some semblence of help, then return them to the streets of rubble with some supplies and collect the next round of starving oprhans. No Americans to be seen; Europeans, helping other Europeans...the ones who had been terrorizing them for the last decade of war.

WW2 did not hit our shores in anything resembling a destructive wave. We rationed meat, while they had none. 1-in-3 Russians were killed in the war, making it really hard to find a Russian citizen who was not directly affected by loss. 

I was private security for a woman who was in the Dutch underground, and one of the caretakers for Anne Franks family, mentioned in the Diary. After Schindlers list came out, she was invited to speak at a UC Irvine event. A panle of speakers was aksed to tell their stories: A young medical student, placed in the concentration camps & made to conduct amputations with a piece of wire and no drugs...an American tank driver, first in the gates at Buchenwald...the families of people whose names were on the list. And outside, a parade of *American* neo-fascists, insisting it never happened, protesting loudly on the sidewalk outside the hall, while inside the old tank driver broke down in tears, describing trying to save the prisoners, only to accidentally kill them with single bites of food and small sips of water bursting their stomachs...where you could have heard a pin drop, for real.

I love my country, what it stands for. I've bled for it, and would again. But I can't stand the abhorrent ignorance that governs the minds of so many Americans. And while we had the exhorbitant largesse of the 1980's putting yuppies in large houses and convertibles, countries like Britain and Belgium saw a huge working class struggling just to break even in a heavily taxed economies, old pairs of trousers with sewn holes, and Ireland looking like a 3rd world country. I recall clearly sitting on the plane next to a young Irish man, beaming with pride that he had just recieved his European passport, and that now he was a citizen of Europe. And how the changes on the horizon would mean his kids would have a better chance than he did, having grown up in a poverty-filled Dublin. And they do; Ireland looks now more like American University towns did back then, and I'm glad for them.

Sorry for the rant...something about it all just gets in my craw. Price paid; move on, and be grateful you didn't have to come up from under the burdens they did.


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## crushing (Jun 1, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> However it is very crass that some expect people to gush and fawn over America as the saviour of the world and constantly want us to go on our knees and say thank you, thank you all the time.


 
Where do you see that expectation all the time?

I've seen the "you'd be speaking German" comments in a couple flag waving chain emails, or as a counter or defense to some attack on something some "patriot" making the comment holds dear in an online forum, but other than that???????


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 1, 2009)

crushing said:


> Where do you see that expectation all the time?
> 
> I've seen the "you'd be speaking German" comments in a couple flag waving chain emails, or as a counter or defense to some attack on something some "patriot" making the comment holds dear in an online forum, but other than that???????


 
I'll bite. Ever hear the term, "ugly American?" Where there is smoke, there is fire. American tourists stand out among a crowd, and can be heard making small-minded comments in the Metro, in the squares, the malls, on the rail, in hotel lobbies. I had a friend I was pissed at for saying he was Canadian, instead of American, as a way to explain his accent without having to admit being a U.S. citizen. 

Then, after living in Bruxelles and Luxembourg, I kinda got it. Instead of denying my US origin, I would just say, "We aren't all like that".

I was there during the presidency of Bush the First, while bits of the Berlin Wall and tons of fake wall were being sold on streetcorners. If there was a "crass idiot" comment to be heard in the crowd, chances were better than 3/4 it was an American.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 1, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> On a side note, regarding my own personal disdain for the French.
> The stories I've heard from several veterans, was that when the US forces were leaving France at the wars end, the French would line the streets and make obscene gestures, and tell them to "get out". So grateful were they that American's shed their blood to save their country when they themselves couldn't, that they would shower the trains with rocks in joy. So, to me, while the US can say thank you to the French for loaning us some money, and selling us some guns back in our infancy, we have more than repaid that debt, with high interest by our own sacrifices in recovering and restoring their own country to them. It also I am sure chaffs them terribly to owe the British the same debt for saving their collective asses, though they seem to forget that often I hear.


 
My own personal disdain for the French came from reviewing joint field operations with them in NATO drills...you know; the alliance that the French snubbed when they thought they were strong enough, switched to OTAN, but expect to come to their aid if the dooky ever hits the rotary cooling device again?

I have to say...the families in the French countryside were delightful folk; that seemed to be a universal thing, wherever I went. The Parisians, on the other hand...a Canadian Colonel we were hanging with frequently used the phrase in Paris, "France is too beautiful for the French." Usually after a Parisian went out of their way to snub us, or express their disdain for us English speaking foriegners.

But, to be fair, have you ever seen the way Southern California locals treat foreigners who struggle with English?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2009)

A woman I once worked with was from Norway and she spoke more languages than I ever thought possible for one human (however she just did not speak the language of her in-laws  ) She traveled all over Europe the US and Canada and she did not have any thing bad to say about anyone but she refused to comment on Parisians. She had been to Paris and she loved the French countryside and thought French Canadian were great people but would not comment on Parisians. 

And my only comment on WW II and the French tends to always be about the success of the Maginot Line, I could say more but why bother. 

Listen people it was a long time ago and likely none of use were there fighting. I had a few uncles there one was at D-Day and was injured after he got off the beach, one in the Pacific and I have never heard any of them say anything against any of their allies or say anyone in Europe owed them a thing. 

Frankly there was good a bad done by all and from my study of the history of it there are a few I am not all to happy with but at this point since it appears that everyone else on the planet is looking to fight see the middle east, Korea and a few others, I hate to sound cliché here but can't we all just get along.

As for idiotic, rude nasty comments made by American's abroad well they are idiots but I have head people form other countries make a few rude, nasty, idiotic comments here in the US too and some of them have become citizens others were tourists. Does that mean everyone there is a Jerk.... no.... just the ones I heard. 

And you want to stand out like a sore thumb be you from Britain, USA or Europe go to China and pick a city go where tourist don't.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 1, 2009)

Sadly, at the moment it looks like we are entering a period where, more than usual, we (humanity) cannot seem to get along. I wish it were otherwise but that wish is not fated to be answered anytime soon I'm sorry to say.

I just wanted to thank Kempoka openly for the veracity of his words in those posts earlier. I know that many of our members here won't want to acknowledge them as being true and that some think we (British especially) are not being fair in some things that we say or hint at when we speak of those times. 

However, it was, not gratifying exactly but certainly a relief to hear that there are those who understand somewhat how the gulf of difference in experience has marked the generations (and their descendants) that saw that war as widely as the Atlantic physically seperates the continents.


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## mook jong man (Jun 2, 2009)

The French aren't exactly popular down here in Australia and New Zealand either .
 Because they kept on doing nuclear testing on Mururoa Atoll , and not only that they sent some of their secret agents to blow up the Green Peace protest ship " The Rainbow Warrior ".


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## Tez3 (Jun 2, 2009)

crushing said:


> Where do you see that expectation all the time?
> 
> I've seen the "you'd be speaking German" comments in a couple flag waving chain emails, or as a counter or defense to some attack on something some "patriot" making the comment holds dear in an online forum, but other than that???????


 
I've seen it on several posts on this forum.


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 2, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I wish so many of the dumb hicks I share a country with could have seen what happens to the consciousness of a people when the tumults of war have devastated their own backyard. When food was so scarce, stews were made from grass and old leather...for months on end. When elder sisters would sell their bodies to US G.I.'s for rations, so they could feed their younger siblings...parents having been executed by the Nazi's. (which side should they thank? The Germans who shot their parents in the head, or the Americans who baited them with sustenance to act like whores?).



My grandmother was born in WW1 and raised / managed a large family through WW2 while my grandfather was first fighting, and then imprisoned in a POW camp. Her side of the family was wealthy (not just well off).

2 houses further down the road, people were eating grass, because they had nothing left. So my grandmother started sharing what she had. Many people were fed for free by the produce of her orchards and fields. She took people in as well, and did what she could without resentement. At the end of the war, all they had left were the house and the land.

I used to ask her about the war, and she'd tell things about the daily life, not about the ugliness, when I was a kid. She died last week, at age 95. Her funeral was packed, because she knew everyone and everyone knew her.

How is this relevant to the argument?
Europeans, Nato, the EU, etc are often ridiculed for their endless talking and diplomatic efforts, even against all odds. But the thing is: for most of us, the war is not a vague concept. It's not something that happened far enough in the past that we can glorify it. We don't think of war as something where you go to, kill someone and then come back home as a 'hero'. We don't think war is a solution. Even today, there are many people alive who lived through the war (my kids day care parents for example) or who (like me) know people (my grandparents)who did.

We -know- the impact and consequences of land war, and we will do anything to prevent it. We still have a living memory of the war.

Even today, Flanders is littered with WW2 bunkers. They are not torn down. They are maintained. I know several bridges where the guard bunker is cared for, and where a new bridge was built alongside to increase capacity without having to tear down the bunker.
The trenches in Ieper where so many died are maintained to keep them stable and strong. Even some of the death camps are still kept standing.
We do those things as a remembrance to those who died, as a reminder of the horrors, and as a motivation for doing everything in our power to prevent it from happening again.

While it is pointless to raise my blood pressure over what people say on the internet (and I tend not to let it do that) comment like those which started this thread make me angry because they are an insult to the people like my grandparents who lived through it, who knew the horror, and who gave everything they had, fighting and caring.


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 2, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I love my country, what it stands for. I've bled for it, and would again. But I can't stand the abhorrent ignorance that governs the minds of so many Americans. And while we had the exhorbitant largesse of the 1980's putting yuppies in large houses and convertibles, countries like Britain and Belgium saw a huge working class struggling just to break even in a heavily taxed economies, old pairs of trousers with sewn holes, and Ireland looking like a 3rd world country. I recall clearly sitting on the plane quote]
> I grew up in working class Northern England in the '80s. The person I call father didn't arrive in our lives until '86. We did'nt resent American wealth though. As kids, America gave us hope for the future. We all wanted to be in the US, in California, riding in the van with the A-Team.
> 
> The first Americans I met were LDS missionaries. It was in '84. They gave me my first 'Twinkie' and showed me how to throw a football. Some of the kids cried when they left.
> ...


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## crushing (Jun 2, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I've seen it on several posts on this forum.


 
Yes, exactly!  Thank you.  This forum has been up for years and has how many thousands of posts?  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just don't think it happens, as you said, "all the time."



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Ever hear the term, "ugly American?" Where there is smoke, there is fire.


 
Yes, of course, and unfortunately I've heard unflattering and insulting advectives used with various other nationalities as well.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I've seen it on several posts on this forum.


 
You know... I wrote a rather sarcastic response to the above post and then I went on a bit of a tirade (A1 top of the line Xue Sheng Rant), to all not just tez, about this entire thread. But after writing it and then rereading it my first thought was why waste my time, no one will listen and they will just go on arguing anyway and just try and include me in the argument.... I'd just be fanning the flames 

So I deleted the entire thing.

Enjoy tilting at windmills all, I'm done and out of this entire thread


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## just2kicku (Jun 2, 2009)

I think that all this happened a long time ago. It was horrible, war always is.

I've talked to my grandfather who said they would damn near crap their pants when the kamikazes would come in. My great uncle who, besides a buddy, was the only two survivors out of their company in the European theater. My grandfather in Hawaii who was a civil service worker at Pearl, and saw the Japanese pass three times before unloading. While he ran up to a roof top to man a gun.

People came together to fight a common enemy between them, and were successful. 

I, myself was on a fast attack submarine, the first nuke boat to pull into Japan since WWII. We got protested, I don't hate any of them.

I think all this talk about who did what for who, should be water under the bridge. Everyone worked together and came out on top. Period.

I have my own views on things. I've seen the arrogance on the part of Americans, Brits, French.
Whatever, I'm proud of my country, I'm sure just as they are.

The point is, move on. It was bad, learn from it, don't forget it, but don't dwell on it either.
There's gonna be *** wipes no matter where you go.


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## Tez3 (Jun 2, 2009)

crushing said:


> Yes, exactly! Thank you. This forum has been up for years and has how many thousands of posts? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just don't think it happens, as you said, "all the time."
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, of course, and unfortunately I've heard unflattering and insulting advectives used with various other nationalities as well.


 
I see that you read what I said the wrong way and you are interpretating the way you see it so I'm not going to bore everyone with long explanations. You believe what you want about how I feel or say things and I'll know what I feel and say things so we'll both be happy.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 2, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> I've talked to my grandfather who said they would damn near crap their pants when the kamikazes would come in.


Interesting side jaunt on this. When I was in Japan in '74, a couple buddies and I were on a train way out beyond nowhere (no Americans in sight and to make it more obvious, we were in uniform). Out of the blue, this middle aged guy standing next to me says, _I was a kamakaze pilot in the War_.  I didn't know whether to swing or dive under the seat. Before I could decide, he continued, _I was 17 years old, but before they could send me out the war ended_. We then had a nice chat -- in English. Taught me something about how much I didn't know about the experience of others.



> I, myself was on a fast attack submarine, the first nuke boat to pull into Japan since WWII.


Thanks for your service. :asian:


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## crushing (Jun 2, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I see that you read what I said the wrong way and you are interpretating the way you see it so I'm not going to bore everyone with long explanations. You believe what you want about how I feel or say things and I'll know what I feel and say things so we'll both be happy.


 
I appreciate you taking your time to reply to me.  I don't want to simply believe what I want about how you feel about those 'several posts'.  That is too easy.  I would rather gain understanding.


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2009)

crushing said:


> I appreciate you taking your time to reply to me. I don't want to simply believe what I want about how you feel about those 'several posts'. That is too easy. I would rather gain understanding.


 
That post was made in a hurry at half five in the morning before I went to work, as I work 12 hours 7-1900, there tends to be many posts added before I can ad more or explain.
As it is it's 7 in the morning now and I'm coming off night shift lol so this may not be too coherent!

Okay this is what I said.

_However it is very crass that *some* expect people to gush and fawn over America as the saviour of the world and constantly want us to go on our knees and say thank you, thank you all the time._

Whether you choose to believe it or not there are some who state that everyone else should be grateful to America but as I said it's only some. My quick post said I've seen it on here and I, in fact got into trouble on here when I first joined for arguing back against a particularly strongly worded post that stated the very thing I am talking about. There have been other occasions too, if you have the time, sadly I don't, go through all my posts to find them.
I didn't say it was most people or even many, just some and it's true. It doesn't take away the goodness of other Americans, it just means you have some idiots as we do, ours, however are mostly in govenment.
It wasn't an insult it was an observation based on things not on here but from reading what people say, read some of the comments on here.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3412490.ece

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread458332/pg1

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1034

this one says if if wasn't for the Americans we'd be speaking German and a few other choice insults to boot
http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2004-October/004425.html

There's loads more stuff out there in the same vein. After 9/11 and war was in the offing many peace campaigners protested about Britain getting ivolved, there were letter to the British press from Americans which all said the same thing, oh you should be grateful to us etc etc... and you must join in the war, well we did anyway but not for those reasons.

The OP is made up of anecdotal stories which were unnecessary, as have been demonstrated by other posts on here, America's contributions and sacrifices hasn't been forgotten nor will they be. 
Now I'm off to bed, good morning!


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