# UFC 89 Bisping vs Leben Results



## Clark Kent (Oct 22, 2008)

10-19-2008 09:39 AM:Michael Bisping defeated Chris Leben via decision, Keith Jardine took a split-decision over Brandon Vera, Luiz Cane defeated Rameau Sokoudjou, and more as the UFC went to London. 

More...
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The hardest hitting news from the hardest hitting sport.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2008)

LONDON?  it was in Birmingham!!!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 26, 2008)

What I saw it looked like a great show!


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2008)

I missed it all as I went down to Cornwall for a weeks break but am busy catching up on it all! I was told Mikey had won, though of course lol!
Disappointed for Jess and Sammy, la prochaine fois mes amis! Dan Hardy, well, we knew he'd be a good addition to the UFC, joining Terry!


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Oct 26, 2008)

Bisping did great!! nice combos awesome timing and was pretty much beating Leben to the punches. Leben was taking a real beating and he seemed to want to rely on throwing wild lefts.

The fight for the most part was stand up and an exciting one at that.


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## punisher73 (Oct 27, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Bisping did great!! nice combos awesome timing and was pretty much beating Leben to the punches. Leben was taking a real beating and he seemed to want to rely on throwing wild lefts.
> 
> The fight for the most part was stand up and an exciting one at that.


 
I can't remember it staying on the ground except for a little bit in the first round.  It was almost all stand up.

It also was more of a technical fight.  Both fighters came out looking good. But, Bisping had 5 inches of reach on Leben and just stood outside of range and then struck when Leben would try and close the distance.  As the fight progressed you could see Leben getting more frustrated and then started throwing the big bombs looking for a KO.

I was disappointed after the fight to hear Bisping say you wanted to take it to the judges and get a unanimous decision.  I like it when fighters FIGHT and try to win the fight.  I don't like it when fighters do only enough to get the judges nod and not fully commit to ending it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> I can't remember it staying on the ground except for a little bit in the first round. It was almost all stand up.
> 
> It also was more of a technical fight. Both fighters came out looking good. But, Bisping had 5 inches of reach on Leben and just stood outside of range and then struck when Leben would try and close the distance. As the fight progressed you could see Leben getting more frustrated and then started throwing the big bombs looking for a KO.
> 
> I was disappointed after the fight to hear Bisping say you wanted to take it to the judges and get a unanimous decision. I like it when fighters FIGHT and try to win the fight. I don't like it when fighters do only enough to get the judges nod and not fully commit to ending it.


 

Interview with Bisping http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...sputed-decision-at-UFC-89-Boxing-and-MMA.html he says here he went out to win and it was a tough fight. Knowing Mikey I doubt he'd just go for a points win, for one thing it's too precarious to rely on just doing enough. He certainly looks as if he'd had a tough fight.

On some American forums there has been a lot of anti Bisping and anti British talk. I think one of the problems is that possibly British MMA fans and American MMA fan seem to differ in what they want to see. Over here Bisping's tactical fighting is much appreciated and is the normal way of fighting whereas possibly because the UFC is what most American fans see as MMA they want the more sort of brawling fight - big punches and big KO's. From reading comments from both sides of the pond this seems to the thoughts of most British MMA supporters. As I've said before most of us are TMA trained people (Bisping certainly is, kickboxing, TKD and BJJ) and the tactical part of the competition is vitally important.


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## crushing (Oct 27, 2008)

I haven't really seen any anti British talk, but much of the anti Bisping talk started with Bisping's trash talking leading up to the Matt Hamill fight and only escalated with the controversial results of that fight.


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## punisher73 (Oct 27, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Interview with Bisping http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...sputed-decision-at-UFC-89-Boxing-and-MMA.html he says here he went out to win and it was a tough fight. Knowing Mikey I doubt he'd just go for a points win, for one thing it's too precarious to rely on just doing enough. He certainly looks as if he'd had a tough fight.
> 
> On some American forums there has been a lot of anti Bisping and anti British talk. I think one of the problems is that possibly British MMA fans and American MMA fan seem to differ in what they want to see. Over here Bisping's tactical fighting is much appreciated and is the normal way of fighting whereas possibly because the UFC is what most American fans see as MMA they want the more sort of brawling fight - big punches and big KO's. From reading comments from both sides of the pond this seems to the thoughts of most British MMA supporters. As I've said before most of us are TMA trained people (Bisping certainly is, kickboxing, TKD and BJJ) and the tactical part of the competition is vitally important.


 
Maybe he just misspoke himself, or I misunderstood what was said.  It kind of surprised me because before the fight he talked about ko-ing him and wanting a short fight.  Then the comments after it seemed opposite.

I agree with the British vs. American view of fighting.  I remember in boxing watching Lennox Lewis and how much grief he got over being a technical fighter instead of really going for the KO a la Tyson.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2008)

crushing said:


> I haven't really seen any anti British talk, but much of the anti Bisping talk started with Bisping's trash talking leading up to the Matt Hamill fight and only escalated with the controversial results of that fight.


 
There's some rabid comments on Sherdog sadly and a lot of comments on others. 
Of course some of the comments are funny and witten by troll or kids who don't actually know what MMa is about. A couple of my favourites are 'the brits should get better dentists' and ' even David Beckham knows American sports are better' on an thread about Bisping. 
Trash talk is there to publicise a show, we don't have a lot of it here but no one takes it seriously anyway however it seems expected in the UFC.


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## Odin (Oct 27, 2008)

Whats that? trolling on sherdog? never   itrs actually a shame since there are some good folk on sherdog who really know their MMA but the site is just covered in idiots who I cant help but wonder why they even watch the sport.

The american audience are under the impression that Dana is giving Bisping an easy ride,to some extent I can agree, they have an investment that they are trying to keep, but thats not to say that they have not given bisping some difficult fights they just seemed to give him easier ones when he gets to the UK.

Bisping will have to fight the winner of the franklin Hendo fight both of whom will show where bisping stands in the middleweight division.

Bisping did say at the end of the fight that his plan was to win by decision, in all fairness to him it was a smart plan, the one thing that Bisping really lacks is knock out power I think him and his team knew they wouldnt be able to knock out 'iron chinned' leban, staying on the outside and out striking him was the way to go ( although I would go far to say that Bisping has a better ground game and should have at least given a thought to tapping Leban out, or at least putting him in a positon to cause a stoppage ) 

Im really hoping that we have some good guys representing England in the next TUF, it could go a long way in changing the minds of some american MMA fans.and hopefully that teeth myth will be put to rest aswel


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## theletch1 (Oct 27, 2008)

Yes, trash talking seems to be getting more and more the norm for the UFC.  I find it to be a big turn off for me.  I'm an old fashioned kind of guy that believes in sport fighting there should be a bit more "good sportsmanship" and there's no place for trash talking in that.  Ah, well, it's the spectacle of the thing that fills the seats for folks that don't understand the martial arts in general and MMA specifically so I suppose we'll continue to hear it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Yes, trash talking seems to be getting more and more the norm for the UFC. I find it to be a big turn off for me. I'm an old fashioned kind of guy that believes in sport fighting there should be a bit more "good sportsmanship" and there's no place for trash talking in that. Ah, well, it's the spectacle of the thing that fills the seats for folks that don't understand the martial arts in general and MMA specifically so I suppose we'll continue to hear it.


 
I agree, the problem with trash talking is that it will attract people to buy tickets but when they get there it doesn't prove to be what they were expecting and you tend to get trouble in the crowd then. the other problem of course with trash talking is if you lose and end up looking very stupid lol!
There's still some misconceptions about MMA that need to be dispelled, it's a game of physical chess not a 'last man standing' thing. Something I think TMA people should appreciate perhaps, the art of fighting using your head as in brains not your head as in head butt! if you know you can't knock your opponent out you use whatever tactics you can to win. That's as much a part of MMA as kicking, punching and groundwork. It's about 'clever' fighting not brawling.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2008)

http://www.fightersonlymagazine.co.uk/news/viewarticle.php?id=1299

The next UFC in the UK.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2008)

Odin said:


> Whats that? trolling on sherdog? never  itrs actually a shame since there are some good folk on sherdog who really know their MMA but the site is just covered in idiots who I cant help but wonder why they even watch the sport.
> 
> The american audience are under the impression that Dana is giving Bisping an easy ride,to some extent I can agree, they have an investment that they are trying to keep, but thats not to say that they have not given bisping some difficult fights they just seemed to give him easier ones when he gets to the UK.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegrap...=1138275681&bclid=1365762219&bctid=1871011299

The first guy, Mark, being interviewed I hope gets through. I watched his first amateur and his first semi pro fights, on the same night! Following that he's fought on our shows as I thought he was entertaining as well as a good fighter and has the personality I think the tv guys will want. He's very funny as well as being confident in front of the cameras. He's been on a couple of game shows here lol. He's brave both in the ring and at his job as a firefighter. Fingers crossed!


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## Fiendlover (Oct 30, 2008)

Clark Kent said:


> 10-19-2008 09:39 AM:Michael Bisping defeated Chris Leben via decision, Keith Jardine took a split-decision over Brandon Vera, Luiz Cane defeated Rameau Sokoudjou, and more as the UFC went to London.
> 
> More...
> MMA Ring Report
> The hardest hitting news from the hardest hitting sport.


 WHOO HOO BISPING WON!  i love Bisping and i hate Leben that was an awesome fight.  I also LOVED marcus "the irish hand grenade" davis' fight.  Freakin awesome.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> WHOO HOO BISPING WON! i love Bisping and i hate Leben that was an awesome fight. I also LOVED marcus "the irish hand grenade" davis' fight. Freakin awesome.


 
http://www.wolfslairmma.co.uk/Mike_Bisping.html
As I never get tired of pointing out Bispings first fight against Steve Mathews ( one of our fighters) was on our show rofl!
This site is Wolfslair where Mikey trains, he posts on the forum as 'The Count'.


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## Fiendlover (Oct 30, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> http://www.wolfslairmma.co.uk/Mike_Bisping.html
> As I never get tired of pointing out Bispings first fight against Steve Mathews ( one of our fighters) was on our show rofl!
> This site is Wolfslair where Mikey trains, he posts on the forum as 'The Count'.


 OMG thank you!  I'm freakin in love with Bisping er I mean as a fighter of course...:fanboy:  lol!


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> OMG thank you! I'm freakin in love with Bisping er I mean as a fighter of course...:fanboy: lol!


 
LOL! think you better have this link as well then! You can contact him and leave a message too. Tell him Irene/Tez from Pride & Glory told you about site and I was going to speak to him at M1 but Ian F sidetracked me lol!

http://www.bisping.tv/


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## Fiendlover (Oct 30, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> LOL! think you better have this link as well then! You can contact him and leave a message too. Tell him Irene/Tez from Pride & Glory told you about site and I was going to speak to him at M1 but Ian F sidetracked me lol!
> 
> http://www.bisping.tv/


 OMG Thank you, you are the best Tez.  :bow:


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## Tez3 (Oct 31, 2008)

Cheers! LOL! best keep your heroes at a distance though lol they are never as good as you think close up! Actually Bispings okay but can't stand his dad lol!


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## Fiendlover (Nov 1, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Cheers! LOL! best keep your heroes at a distance though lol they are never as good as you think close up! Actually Bispings okay but can't stand his dad lol!


 lol yeah i do try to keep a distance but i had to send Bisping just a tiny email.  :ultracool  lol.


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## K831 (Nov 1, 2008)

I haven't heard much trash talking about British fighters. And I don't think people were talking trash on Bisping after the Leben fight because "Americans like brawls" and Brits like "technical fights". Hardly the case. While Bisping is good, technical etc is game plan is often to stay away and score points, as it was in the case with Leben. Leben pushed the fight the entire time. While Bisping's strategey worked, it becomes frustrating because someone has to "step up" and bring the fight to the other guy in that case. Leben did that, it made the fight, but it also cost him the fight. He walked through everything Bisping had, charged forward even though he was at a reach disadvantage, and lost on points as a result. That kind of thing gets old.

Now, for a comparison look at the best fight of the night; Paul Taylor vs Chris Lytle. Wow what a fight. Technical, both fighters pressed the fight, both took the opportunity to take angles and counter punch, then press. I'm a fan of Lytle, but man can Paul fight,  technical, clean and crisp - I love his style. I would love to see Bisping come out and bang like Paul did.


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## K831 (Nov 1, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Maybe he just misspoke himself, or I misunderstood what was said.  It kind of surprised me because before the fight he talked about ko-ing him and wanting a short fight.  Then the comments after it seemed opposite.


 

You are correct on what he said - that he wanted to stay outside of reach, use his movement and let Leben come to him, and win on points. 



punisher73 said:


> I agree with the British vs. American view of fighting. I remember in boxing watching Lennox Lewis and how much grief he got over being a technical fighter instead of really going for the KO a la Tyson.



Tyson wasn't a technical fighter?


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## Brian S (Nov 3, 2008)

I don't know why anyone likes bispingy as a fighter. The guy is a weiner. He lost to Rashad, and to Matt Hamil imo. He runs around the cage like a sissy boy. Can't wait to see him get thrashed by a good fighter that he can't outrun! :2xbird:


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## Tez3 (Nov 3, 2008)

Brian S said:


> I don't know why anyone likes bispingy as a fighter. The guy is a weiner. He lost to Rashad, and to Matt Hamil imo. He runs around the cage like a sissy boy. Can't wait to see him get thrashed by a good fighter that he can't outrun! :2xbird:


 

Ah and they say trash talk is going out of style. It's a shame though that Bisping doesn't actually care what people think though isn't it?


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## Brian S (Nov 3, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Ah and they say trash talk is going out of style. It's a shame though that Bisping doesn't actually care what people think though isn't it?


 
 Hey, it's the internet and this thread was turning all lovey dovey,lol.

 I just can't respect the way the guy "fights". 

 Why would he care about what I think? He's the one getting paid!!


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## Tez3 (Nov 3, 2008)

Brian S said:


> Hey, it's the internet and this thread was turning all lovey dovey,lol.
> 
> I just can't respect the way the guy "fights".
> 
> Why would he care about what I think? He's the one getting paid!!


 
What's wrong with lovey dovey? fighters have fans ....and mates so you can hardly be surprised if fans and mates stick up for them can you? 
This is more than the internet, this is MT where conversations and debates are civilised.
of course he's being paid but here's the question..... you can criticise but can you do better lol?


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## Brian S (Nov 3, 2008)

I'm not the one being paid, the one competing, or the one up for criticism. So, the question of what I can or can't do is irrelevant.

 The competitors are up for criticism, not the spectators, in any sport.



> This is more than the internet, this is MT where conversations and debates are civilised.


 
 So, if I don't agree and have harsh things to say about a "top level" ufc fighter then I'm not being civilized? How is that debate? Yes, I made my point a little aggressively,but so what? The guy runs around avoiding the fight, does he not? You like him, I don't like the way he fights.....so?

 Do you bust everyone's chops who don't agree with you?


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## Tez3 (Nov 3, 2008)

Brian S said:


> I'm not the one being paid, the one competing, or the one up for criticism. So, the question of what I can or can't do is irrelevant.
> 
> The competitors are up for criticism, not the spectators, in any sport.
> 
> ...


 

Yep.


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## Tez3 (Nov 3, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Yep.


 

You can however have the last word ....as long as it's "yes dear" ROFLMAO

I wouldn't say I like Bisping, we have as the Americans like to say 'issues' lol! Mostly over the way he and a female fighter of his spoke to me at one of our shows but hey he's a British fighter so of course I'm gong to stand up for him when johnny foreigner starts crticising him lol!
How many times have TMA people said oh the way to win a fight is not to fight? Bisping is a TMA fighter at his core so what did you expect? A brawler or someone who uses his brains? MMA is a brain game not a stand and punch each other in the face turn about game.


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## K831 (Nov 4, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> You can however have the last word ....as long as it's "yes dear" ROFLMAO
> 
> I wouldn't say I like Bisping, we have as the Americans like to say 'issues' lol! Mostly over the way he and a female fighter of his spoke to me at one of our shows but hey he's a British fighter so of course I'm gong to stand up for him when johnny foreigner starts crticising him lol!
> How many times have TMA people said oh the way to win a fight is not to fight? Bisping is a TMA fighter at his core so what did you expect? A brawler or someone who uses his brains? MMA is a brain game not a stand and punch each other in the face turn about game.



So, what happens when both fighters decide to fight "smart" like Bisping? TMA or not, if Leben had done the same thing Bisping did, the crowd would have been unhappy, MMA would lose its appeal, and then Bisping wouldn't be getting "paid". Good thing somone stepped up and pressd the fight. Someone has to do it. 

As far as Bisping caring what others think..... I remember the public appology regarding his remarks after the fight with Matt. Pretty sure he cares what the fans think. D. White is no dummy. N crowd appeal, no fight.


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## Tez3 (Nov 4, 2008)

K831 said:


> So, what happens when both fighters decide to fight "smart" like Bisping? TMA or not, if Leben had done the same thing Bisping did, the crowd would have been unhappy, MMA would lose its appeal, and then Bisping wouldn't be getting "paid". Good thing somone stepped up and pressd the fight. Someone has to do it.
> 
> As far as Bisping caring what others think..... I remember the public appology regarding his remarks after the fight with Matt. Pretty sure he cares what the fans think. D. White is no dummy. N crowd appeal, no fight.


 

We see tactical fights here every week and the crowd appreciate them emormously. We tend not to like the 'stand toe to toe bashing each other until one falls down' type of fights.
The fight was in Birningham England so Bisping's type of fighting goes down well, if Leben had followed suit it would have been more interesting not less. Leben may even have won, though he would have had the fight taken off him for taking banned substances.


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## Journeyman (Nov 4, 2008)

I like Bisping. He was who I wanted to win TUF that season. Smart fighter, good work ethic.  I think he was a bit more cautious than he really needed to be against Leben, but he did pick Leben apart.  Don't think that approach is going to work against Franklin or Henderson.  It should be an interesting fight, but I'm sorta expecting Bisping to get mauled against either of those guys.


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## Tez3 (Nov 4, 2008)

Don't know when Bisping will be fighting again nor who his opponent will be, we're expecting it to be on a UK UFC though.

Dan Henderson did a seminar here last month with Caged Steel.
some photos http://mappuk.ifp3.com/root/mappuk/iphoto/main2.cfm


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## K831 (Nov 4, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> if Leben had followed suit it would have been more interesting not less. Leben may even have won,.



I fail to see how both fighters running from each other would be more interesting?

As to your comments about technical fighting  look to Paul Taylor and Chris Lytle they managed to have a pretty technical exchange.without running from each other.


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## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2008)

K831 said:


> I fail to see how both fighters running from each other would be more interesting?
> 
> As to your comments about technical fighting  look to Paul Taylor and Chris Lytle they managed to have a pretty technical exchange.without running from each other.


 
Do you fight MMA? is your opinion based on getting into the ring/cage yourself and fighting or do you just watch?


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## Brian S (Nov 6, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Do you fight MMA? is your opinion based on getting into the ring/cage yourself and fighting or do you just watch?


 
 Here you go again.

 I can tell when plays are messed up in football, I don't play football. 

 Do all the announcers in mma fight mma? I don't recall Joe Rogan fighting mma. 

 Same thing goes for ALL sports. You don't have to participate to give a good analysis or critique of what transpired. Otherwise, we wouldn't have much discussion here would we.


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## Tez3 (Nov 6, 2008)

Brian S said:


> Here you go again.
> 
> I can tell when plays are messed up in football, I don't play football.
> 
> ...


 

Ah but the MMA section seems to be the only one where people feel free to criticise without actually practising the style doesn't it? People from TKD don't go on to the CMA forum telling them their stylists are rubbish, the Aikidoists don't tell the Judo players the way they fight is pants now do they but here everyone feels free to be a critic.
As for announcers on shows here where it's either on television or is videoed we have fighters commentating, that way they know what they are talking about. Lee Remedious and Ian Freeman both UFC vets are the favourite ones, they also train fighters. We don't use non fighters.
With other sports the chances are that if you are interested in them you've probably participated in then at sometime even if only at school level and there's an awful lot of armchair critics who think they can do better, we've all heard them, without actually knowing much. MMA is much better understood if you have walked the walk as it were!


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## Brian S (Nov 6, 2008)

> Ah but the MMA section seems to be the only one where people feel free to criticise without actually practising the style doesn't it? People from TKD don't go on to the CMA forum telling them their stylists are rubbish, the Aikidoists don't tell the Judo players the way they fight is pants now do they but here everyone feels free to be a critic.


 
 I don't know where you've been,but every art gets criticized by non-practitioners all the time. I don't know how many times I've heard kata is a waste of time by those who don't even train kata. 

 It's not that difficult for a martial artists who spars with any realism to say what a fighter is doing wrong or should be doing. They don't HAVE to do mma to know what they're talking about.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 6, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but the MMA section seems to be the only one where people feel free to criticise without actually practising the style doesn't it? People from TKD don't go on to the CMA forum telling them their stylists are rubbish, the Aikidoists don't tell the Judo players the way they fight is pants now do they but here everyone feels free to be a critic.
> As for announcers on shows here where it's either on television or is videoed we have fighters commentating, that way they know what they are talking about. Lee Remedious and Ian Freeman both UFC vets are the favourite ones, they also train fighters. We don't use non fighters.
> With other sports the chances are that if you are interested in them you've probably participated in then at sometime even if only at school level and there's an awful lot of armchair critics who think they can do better, we've all heard them, without actually knowing much. MMA is much better understood if you have walked the walk as it were!


 

In all fairness, this is the MMA forum...*mixed martial arts*...so by the definition of the term, we *all* can speak on what happens in the MMA world.

I don't fight in MMA events, and I comment all the time on how poorly someone strike or how well someone strikes.  I've only wrestled a little in highschool, so I only know a small bit about grappling.  I'm a striker, so that's what I know most about, and I feel right at home commenting about someone else's striking ability.

Something else to consider, everyone who watches MMA events on television is not always an MMAist.  Those who view it don't have to have prior experience in fighting to enjoy watching the sport.  

I know this is off topic in a way, especially since I didn't even catch the Leben/Bisping fight, but I hope everyone realizes that when you perform publicly, you are open to criticism from anyone and everyone, whether they know what they're talking about or not.  It's the nature of the beast.


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## Tez3 (Nov 6, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> In all fairness, this is the MMA forum...*mixed martial arts*...so by the definition of the term, we *all* can speak on what happens in the MMA world.
> 
> I don't fight in MMA events, and I comment all the time on how poorly someone strike or how well someone strikes. I've only wrestled a little in highschool, so I only know a small bit about grappling. I'm a striker, so that's what I know most about, and I feel right at home commenting about someone else's striking ability.
> 
> ...


 

Fair one but it's also understood that when a mate is criticised one stands up for him! A mate is a mate before anything else. Thats fair!


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## K831 (Nov 7, 2008)

I don't blame you at all for sticking up for a mate. However, loyalty, or "mates for mates" as you describe it, often means we stick up for them whether they are right or wrong.

Here are a couple of things we seem to have miss communicated on;

1.) I don't think Bisping is rubbish - and I never said he was.

2.) You seem to be taking any criticism of his approach or tactics or game plan as an assertion that he isn't a good athlete, or isn't a talented fighter. That is simply not the case.

3.) You are confusing "technical" with "tactics". By his own admission at the end of the fight (I have re-watched it) his "tactics" were to stay away, and score points for a unanimous decision. While that proved to be tactically sound, and it did exactly what it was designed to do,  that has no bearing on how "technical" the fight was. Technical refers to the level of technique - technique may be used to employ certain tactics, but they are not the same, and his technique is not what we are discussion, rather, we are discussing his chosen "tactic" for a fight.

To answer you personal question; I come from an MMA background in the truest sens of the term - I wrestled in high school, spent a couple years boxing, training Kenpo and FMA. My goal is street applicable, real-world SD, which I believe is very different from what is known as MMA today. Having clarified that, yes, I have competed. Wrestleing (RG) boxing and small time regional MMA. I know exactly what it is like to fight the guy you have to chase the entire time. I have stopped chasing long enough to hear the crowd boo, and to realize that SOMEONE has to step up an press that fight. You can't have a fight where both people run. Leben stepped up and pressed the fight, and lost because of it. I agree Bisping is talented, technical - but his tactics in too many of his fights are to force his apponent to come to him. That gets old, as others have noted.  Again, I look at the fight of then ight, Taylor and Lytle - no loss of technique (technical) but a far more interesting tactical display.


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2008)

We were talking about this in the club the other day, the point everyone wanted to make is that it's Mixed Martial Arts ( thats not just KB and wrestling, it includes karate, aikido, TKD, Judo etc) and you use what ever you have to to win. I'm not confusing techniques with tactics, if you read I said it was tactical and an MMA fighter has to use tactics. The crowds here don't boo when these tactics are used they know its part of the game, I think perhaps our crowds expect different things in an MMA fight to yours. I've never heard a fighter booed for his tactics just things like low blows, hits to back of heads etc. Oh and maybe coming from France lol.
Talking to fighters here and reading the UK forums nobody seems to understand why the American forums and comments are so negative about the fight, thats not just because Bisping won.

some quotes from British fighters, a promoter and a fight coach/manager

"Mike fought the perfect fight against Leben, (do people actually think he'd fight any different way?), 

"A perfect cerebal / intelligent performance."

"If guys likeLeben etc are so much better then why can't they stop him? As for never finishing fights, what about his fights with Jason Day, charles McCarthy, Sinosic, Shafer etc?"


"He's stopped 5 of 8 in his UFC fights, not to mention his overall (T)KO rate - and they're all banging on that he's boring / doesn't look for the finish etc.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




It really is pathetic."


"people complained about the standard of so called mma boxing for years, you get a guy that uses good footwork and counters and now everybody hates it
out of Bispings style and Leben plodding forward like a zombie i know which i prefer watching"


"The thing is, dude, these are the people who think that Samuel Peters is a good boxer despite his lack of movement, strategy or overall skill. A good boxer/good boxing is a guy who throws haymakers and KOs people"


"When Randy beat Silvia did they say he was a *****?"


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## K831 (Nov 7, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> you use what ever you have to to win.



I agree with this, for the most part. It is obvious in a real life situation. However, there are constraints placed on "sport" fighting and competition that disallow this notion in practice. Further more, we have seen talented fighters get shorted on fights in the major associations because the fight didn't have the crowd appeal or the fighter didn't have a strong enough draw. If fans as a whole think Bisping's "runaway tactics" are boring, and he loses appeal, he will get less and less fights. So while "anything to win" may work in the short term, it may not be in his best interest long term... 





Tez3 said:


> I'm not confusing techniques with tactics, if you read I said it was tactical and an MMA fighter has to use tactics.



I know what you wrote, but it seems the argument is incongruent. Doesn't matter though. If we argee to talk about tactics and not technique, than you may well be right; It is probably fair to say that over here in the USA, we prefer tactics that lead to agressive matches, with both fighters showing a lot of "heart" and pressing forward. It is the "technique" then, that keeps it from becoming a brawl (I understand the term brwal to mean that fighters lack skill or technique.) 




Tez3 said:


> The crowds here don't boo when these tactics are used they know its part of the game,



Sure, because Bisping has been fortunate enough to fight guys that will chase him. What happens when both fighters stand on opossite sides of the ring waiting? You will hear booing. 



Tez3 said:


> I think perhaps our crowds expect different things in an MMA fight to yours.



Cleary, I expect to see a fight. 



Tez3 said:


> Oh and maybe coming from France lol.



Hahah agreed! 




Tez3 said:


> "If guys likeLeben etc are so much better then why can't they stop him?



Because he ran away! Honestly, its not that I think Leben is better, but usually when you refer to a fighter who can't be "stopped" I think of fighters who are running guys over. They are putting guys away. I don't think of fighters who are "surviving" and looking for unanimous decisions by explointing the other guys willingess to try and make it a fight. 





Tez3 said:


> "people complained about the standard of so called mma boxing for years, you get a guy that uses good footwork and counters and now everybody hates it



Again, I would mention the Taylor and Lytle fight. Footwork? Technique? Tactics? yep.... did either spend the entire fight running? Nope.


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2008)

I think you look for boxing more in your fights whereas we go for TKD, MT and karate. You seem to want the blood and guts type of fighting which _*we*_ call brawling instead of the martial arts fighting we have. 
The thing is Bisping isn't considered boring here! He will continue to be offered fights here and in Europe if the UFC decide they don't want him. We had him fight on our show for his pro debut long before he was chosen to go on TUF, he was getting fight offers aplenty after that. TUF just put him in the Americans eyes.

British martial arts style fighting
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QiV2CU5Gb6Y

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9fOzhj2cdZ0

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_aTMpZ-BLUE&feature=related

and this one, Jess Liaudin was in the last UFC with Bisping, the ref too Grant Waterman was officiating on the same show.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gmKbnQ9YLPU&feature=related

We don't have the equivelant of this
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ng-WznfWqV8&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oJX87j4agd4&feature=related


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2008)

For the ladies perhaps lol, Jess is an absolutely charming and sexy Frenchman as well as being a very technical ( and tactical) fighter. he does have a fan club! He's fought on our shows a couple of times which was a real pleasure ( smirk smirk). I have some nice photos of him!!


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## K831 (Nov 7, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think you look for boxing more in your fights whereas we go for TKD, MT and karate.



I fail to see any logic in that statement, or how you could arrive at that conclusion, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree there. 



Tez3 said:


> You seem to want the blood and guts type of fighting which _*we*_ call brawling instead of the martial arts fighting we have.


 
Not sure how much different that looks than MMA from any other country, but ok.

However, I do not understand how you can make that argument, refer to Bisping as a fighter who represents British tactics and style, and then post that highlight real of Marios Zaromskis. That does more to invalidate your argument than anything. Watch that highlight real, then watch Bisping vs Leben again. Didn't see a lot of running or looking for a unanimous decision out of Mario... thats exactly what we saw out of Bispiing. 

Your choice of fights to represent American MMA, or even to draw a comparison, made me laugh, I am assuming you weren't being serious.  

Still though, you haven't answered; how do British fans feel when both fighters choose to run, and stand on the other side of the ring? Or is it just Bisping who can get away with that?


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2008)

K831 said:


> I fail to see any logic in that statement, or how you could arrive at that conclusion, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The videos were posted more to show what British crowds are like more than anything else, they understand what's going on. You stated crowds will boo when the action isn't fast enough them and will get bored, my point is that the crowds here are knowledgable enough to be able to follow a fight all the way through. 
My argument is that you don't like Bisping  and find reasons not to like the way he fights tactically. I've never seen two fighters 'run away' lol, one of the rules in MMA as you know is you will be penalised for passivity. Bisping isn't passive he fights tactically, each fight will be fought differently, his team will have worked out tactics and have him fight  according to the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent, physical chess not bar brawling. We don't see it the way you do and more and more it just sounds like sour grapes. We've watched him long before the pro fights, TUF and UFC, you are judging him on one fight with Leben which you didn't like but as someone said... Bisping won, Leben didn't.
here's an early fight of Mikes.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c58SOsChiyw&feature=related


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2008)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfHyM5vUQnU&NR=1

This one has Ian Freeman as MC and Leigh Remedious commentating, both have fought on UFC.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ln0UKYJb8&feature=related


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## K831 (Nov 8, 2008)

This is getting altogether too circular for me. Its hard to discuss with you when your argument/point/agenda changes. Youre incongruent, bur at least you consistently incongruent. 


The issue began with this statement;



punisher73 said:


> I was disappointed after the fight to hear Bisping say you wanted to take it to the judges and get a unanimous decision. I like it when fighters FIGHT and try to win the fight. I don't like it when fighters do only enough to get the judges nod and not fully commit to ending it.



Your immediate reply;



Tez3 said:


> Knowing Mikey I doubt he'd just go for a points win, for one thing it's too precarious to rely on just doing enough. He certainly looks as if he'd had a tough fight.



Then you go on to say;



Tez3 said:


> I think one of the problems is that possibly British MMA fans and American MMA fan seem to differ in what they want to see. Over here Bisping's tactical fighting is much appreciated and is the normal way of fighting whereas possibly because the UFC is what most American fans see as MMA they want the more sort of brawling fight



That has been / was your argument from the begining. That is the argument that I, and others had contention with. 

1.) Bispings display of runaway and try and win a unanimous decision is one tactic or approach to a fight  pretty common for Bisping, and he did say that is exactly what his plan was. 
2.) Your generalization that because of few of us on the forum are prone to getting tired of a fighter whose tactic is most often to run must mean that we as fans dont understand MMA, dont understand tactical/technical fighting and only have the attention span for a brawl is ridiculous. It is both a red herring and ad hominem fallacy.

You then begin to change your reasoning and your argument; First, the issue is that Americans dont like/ understand tactics, then its 



Tez3 said:


> How many times have TMA people said oh the way to win a fight is not to fight? Bisping is a TMA fighter at his core so what did you expect? A brawler or someone who uses his brains?



So its a TMA issue, but you admit Bisping would rather not fight and win by that strategy, which is of course, using his brains. Confusing

The argument changes again;



Tez3 said:


> My argument is that you don't like Bisping and find reasons not to like the way he fights tactically.


 
So now tactics are ancillary, and the issue is my personal feelings on Bisping? 

Lets look at your comments on the subject;



Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't say I like Bisping, we have as the Americans like to say 'issues' lol!



-Vs-



Tez3 said:


> ... it's also understood that when a mate is criticised one stands up for him! A mate is a mate before anything else. Thats fair!



Huh? 

Then its back to the ad hominem; 



Tez3 said:


> Do you fight MMA? is your opinion based on getting into the ring/cage yourself and fighting or do you just watch?



Then you post links with these statements;



Tez3 said:


> British martial arts style fighting






Tez3 said:


> We don't have the equivelant of this



Then change again with this statement; 



Tez3 said:


> The videos were posted more to show what British crowds are like more than anything else,



Oh, ok 

So listen bro, I get that you feel the need to stick up for Bisping  wrong or right, countrymen and all.


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2008)

Ok, you don't like my arguments, you don't like the way Bisping fights, fine, it doesn't matter, it's only a game BUT DON'T CALL ME BRO!


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## K831 (Nov 8, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, you don't like my arguments, you don't like the way Bisping fights, fine, it doesn't matter, it's only a game BUT DON'T CALL ME BRO!



easy dude.


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm not dude either. Would you call your mother or grandmother bro or dude? if not please don't call me that either, I find it rude.


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## K831 (Nov 8, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not dude either. Would you call your mother or grandmother bro or dude? if not please don't call me that either, I find it rude.



You want me to call you momma? Weird. 

All the years I lived in Scotland the colloquialism was "alright Pal" or "alright Jimmy" and when someone took something far too seriously it was "on yer bike"...


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2008)

People here, not even in Glasgow, do not go around calling women bro or dude, in fact we rarely call men that, it would be taken the wrong way. For Brits to go round calling each other 'bro' or 'dud' is affectation and very comical. Like wannabe 'gangstas'......and you'd get slapped.
In Glasgow as you should know I'd be called 'hen' not pal or jimmy.


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## K831 (Nov 8, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> People here, not even in Glasgow, do not go around calling women bro or dude, in fact we rarely call men that, it would be taken the wrong way. For Brits to go round calling each other 'bro' or 'dud' is affectation and very comical. Like wannabe 'gangstas'......and you'd get slapped.
> In Glasgow as you should know I'd be called 'hen' not pal or jimmy.




That assumes several things; first, I would have to know you're female (I don't put much time into considering the sex of someone I am having a discussion with - although it would have helped with the incongruous reasoning. ) Second, it would depend on your age. I wouldn't refer to you has hen if you were younger... might be just as rude. Now if your Glaswegian - that helps me get my footing - in Glasgow if someone called me "pal" I might be watching for the infamous "kiss" that may follow the word, especially if used when asking a question in close proximity. Not as much a term of endearment as it is in the rest of the country. I had to change a lot of colloquialisms when I moved from Glasgow to Inverness, where I might have called you "jenny". (Of course again, in some areas, it would depend on how much tea you drink). 

Other info that wold help us communicate; Rangers or Celtics? 
*http://everything2.com/*

*
*


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## K831 (Nov 8, 2008)

Let me rephrase; Leads or Man u? Arsenal maybe?


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2008)

K831 said:


> That assumes several things; first, I would have to know you're female (I don't put much time into considering the sex of someone I am having a discussion with - although it would have helped with the incongruous reasoning. ) Second, it would depend on your age. I wouldn't refer to you has hen if you were younger... might be just as rude. Now if your Glaswegian - that helps me get my footing - in Glasgow if someone called me "pal" I might be watching for the infamous "kiss" that may follow the word, especially if used when asking a question in close proximity. Not as much a term of endearment as it is in the rest of the country. I had to change a lot of colloquialisms when I moved from Glasgow to Inverness, where I might have called you "jenny". (Of course again, in some areas, it would depend on how much tea you drink).
> 
> *Other info that wold help us communicate; Rangers or Celtics?*


 

Neither! but of course asking that is a very loaded question that is religious and political!! Beside can't stand football, I'm a rugby fan. am also English who went to school and uni in Aberdeen, joined the RAF and now work for the MOD. Also, I'm hugely older than you lol!


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## K831 (Nov 8, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> . Also, I'm hugely older than you lol!



Then hen it is!  

And yes, it was a loaded question, lol.


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## K831 (Nov 8, 2008)

Oh and I meant to ask; Robert Gordon, University of Aberdeen or Aberdeen Uni? I really enjoyed my time in the Granite city.


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2008)

K831 said:


> Oh and I meant to ask; Robert Gordon, University of Aberdeen or Aberdeen Uni? I really enjoyed my time in the Granite city.


 
My brother went to Robert Gordons from age 5 -18 no girls allowed then, I was at the Albyn School for Girls then Marischal College. TBH I hated Aberdeen! It wasn't easy being English there before the Americans arrived and made it open it's eyes!!


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## K831 (Nov 8, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> My brother went to Robert Gordons from age 5 -18 no girls allowed then, I was at the Albyn School for Girls then Marischal College. TBH I hated Aberdeen! *It wasn't easy being English there before the Americans arrived and made it open it's eyes!!*



I can imagine, that would be pretty difficult.


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2008)

Yep! In the early sixties women weren't allowed in any bar or pub which closed at ten at night and didn't open on Sundays. Christmas wasn't celebrated and English people were refused jobs. It was a very insular place, dark and very Calvinistic then came the oil!!


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