# Are steel toe boots useful for self defense? What SD items do you carry?



## kehcorpz

I like cat boots and since I get new ones all the time I thought why not get the ones with steel toes? can only be an advantage. they aren't heavier. i got no issues with them.

but i wonder how useful could they be in a self-defense situation?`i cant really imagine how devastating it would be to be hit by a steel toe when you really try to kick as hard as possible.
Do you think that you could break someone's shin when you kick against it right with the front of the toe like on the pic. But on the pic he hits his leg with his foot and not the tip of his toe.

http://www.usarmycombatives.com/images/image1057.jpg

But even if the tip of the steel toe could be very destructive then the question is how difficult is it in a fight to really kick somebody against the shin and hit exactly with the tip?

------

And what SD items do you carry every day? I am looking for usefull low profile stuff.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

kehcorpz said:


> And what SD items do you carry every day? I am looking for usefull low profile stuff.


After you have the following, if someone tries to mess with you, he will regret that his mother ever brought him into this world.  

This is good for "long range stand up game".







This is good for "short range stand up game".






This is good for "ground game".


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Where in Europe do you live, what are the laws there, what are you trained to fight with, and what are the chances you will actually end up getting attacked?


----------



## Tames D

HIS


----------



## Tames D

HERS


----------



## Tames D

His and Hers


----------



## RTKDCMB

Double post


----------



## RTKDCMB

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is good for "long range stand up game".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is good for "short range stand up game".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is good for "ground game".





Tames D said:


> HIS





Tames D said:


> HERS



Most or all of these items would be illegal in most civilized countries and good luck trying to convince a judge that you were using these items for self defense.


----------



## MAfreak

of course would these boots be useful. even when you're to drunk to hit a shin, it prevents you at least to get stomped on your toes.
try slingshots.
i always carry keys when leaving the house.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

kehcorpz said:


> But even if the tip of the steel toe could be very destructive then the question is how difficult is it in a fight to really kick somebody against the shin and hit exactly with the tip?
> 
> And what SD items do you carry every day? I am looking for usefull low profile stuff.



You seem to be asking several questions.  I'll try to answer them for you.

1) Are steel-toed boots useful in self-defense?  Sure, why not?  One drawback might be that the heavier weight of the boot slows down kicks and response times, but I am guessing the steel toe itself would help with the kick, both from the perspective of mass and solidity.

2) How difficult is it to kick in a fight and hit with the toe of the shoe?  Impossible to answer.  Every fight is different, people are different, etc.

3) What SD items do I carry every day?  None.  Carrying weapons is a choice I choose not to make.  When you carry a weapon, it introduces several liabilities along with the advantages it offers.

First, a weapon is a weapon.  Regardless of how people might try to convince a cop that a steel stabby thing in their pocket is actually a 'pen', most cops are not that stupid.  You carry a steel stabby thing, it's a weapon and if the cop wants to charge with with carrying an unlawful concealed weapon, guess what?

Second, carrying a weapon pretty much means any fight you get into where you produce said weapon is now a fight with deadly force.  If you are not lawfully permitted to use deadly force in that circumstance, you have a legal problem on your hands at the minimum.

Third, once you produce a weapon in a fight, now you have to defend that weapon as well as yourself.  A bad guy will want to acquire said weapon to use on you, so your weapon is now something he would like to have and you have to defend it as well as yourself.

Fourth, if you choose to go about armed, you have to remember your weapon every single day. The day you decide to leave it at home because it's too big, bulky, hot, doesn't look good in your cargo shorts, etc, is the day you will need it.

And finally, I don't live in a world where I am randomly attacked by bad guys.  I use common sense and have managed to avoid being jumped for so long, it's difficult to remember my last self-defense fight.

My personal recommendation is to train hard with unarmed self-defense techniques, use common sense to stay out of trouble, and train with weapons, but don't carry them around with you.  More trouble than they are worth.  My 2 cents, opinion only.


----------



## Flying Crane

I have just found that the world is actually pretty safe.  Believe it or not, bad guys are not lurking around every corner, waiting for their chance to pounce on me for my lunch money.  I have seen little or no reason to arm myself, and while I now live outside the City, I did live for several years right smack in a big city, in a gritty neighborhood.  Still didn't find a need to be armed.

Meh.


----------



## pgsmith

kehcorpz said:


> And what SD items do you carry every day? I am looking for usefull low profile stuff.



  I carry the most important self defense item with me everywhere I go. It's low profile, and undetectable. It's use is legal in almost every country, and it's the single most important weapon as far as self defense is concerned. That would be my brain. I use it constantly, and it's never let me down yet. Exercise it, expand it, learn everything you can about self defense and, unless your work involves law enforcement or security, the likelihood of you needing any other self defense weapon drops down to almost nothing.


----------



## oftheherd1

Bill Mattocks said:


> You seem to be asking several questions.  I'll try to answer them for you.
> 
> 1) Are steel-toed boots useful in self-defense?  Sure, why not?  One drawback might be that the heavier weight of the boot slows down kicks and response times, but I am guessing the steel toe itself would help with the kick, both from the perspective of mass and solidity.
> 
> 2) How difficult is it to kick in a fight and hit with the toe of the shoe?  Impossible to answer.  Every fight is different, people are different, etc.
> 
> 3) What SD items do I carry every day?  None.  Carrying weapons is a choice I choose not to make.  When you carry a weapon, it introduces several liabilities along with the advantages it offers.
> 
> First, a weapon is a weapon.  Regardless of how people might try to convince a cop that a steel stabby thing in their pocket is actually a 'pen', most cops are not that stupid.  You carry a steel stabby thing, it's a weapon and if the cop wants to charge with with carrying an unlawful concealed weapon, guess what?
> 
> Second, carrying a weapon pretty much means any fight you get into where you produce said weapon is now a fight with deadly force.  If you are not lawfully permitted to use deadly force in that circumstance, you have a legal problem on your hands at the minimum.
> 
> Third, once you produce a weapon in a fight, now you have to defend that weapon as well as yourself.  A bad guy will want to acquire said weapon to use on you, so your weapon is now something he would like to have and you have to defend it as well as yourself.
> 
> Fourth, if you choose to go about armed, you have to remember your weapon every single day. The day you decide to leave it at home because it's too big, bulky, hot, doesn't look good in your cargo shorts, etc, is the day you will need it.
> 
> And finally, I don't live in a world where I am randomly attacked by bad guys.  I use common sense and have managed to avoid being jumped for so long, it's difficult to remember my last self-defense fight.
> 
> My personal recommendation is to train hard with unarmed self-defense techniques, use common sense to stay out of trouble, and train with weapons, but don't carry them around with you.  More trouble than they are worth.  My 2 cents, opinion only.



All good advice.  I would add the old saying, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."  That means in the context of your questions and Bill's answers, that a weapon often causes one to concentrate on when and how to use a weapon, not other means to end a confrontation, such as trying to disengage, using less deadly force, using a well tested no weapon fighting technique, etc.

And FYI, once you have practiced any martial art for a year, give or take a few months, you should have no problem cracking, if not completely breaking a shin bone.  That providing you work on acquiring and maximizing strength, power, and technique.


----------



## gerardbu07059

Non of those things are SD they are weapons you can be as effective with a rolled up newspaper 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## JowGaWolf

Steel toe boots aren't a game changer.  If you are in a fight, the boots aren't going to be such a beneficial advantage that you'll win a fight solely because you have steel toe boots.   I'm sure there many fights where the person has steel toe boots and they never stop to think about kicking shins..  Other than protecting your toes from a foot stomp you aren't going to be worth it for "self-defense" purposes.  I put it this way,  I have never heard anyone push steel toe boots as a recommendation for self-defense footwear.

In my opinion I think trying to rely on a steel toe boot as a weapon will just cause the person to kick ineffectively.  My guess is that you'll also be at risk of breaking your toe as it smashed against the inside of the boot.  Steel toe boots were never designed for the purpose of kicking with the toe.

Here's a video of someone who has tried using steel toe boots for self defense.  All of what he shows and says pretty much validates my thought about steel toe boots being bad for self defense purposes of kicking with toe.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Here is a steel bottom boots.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> Steel toe boots aren't a game changer.  If you are in a fight, the boots aren't going to be such a beneficial advantage that you'll win a fight solely because you have steel toe boots.   I'm sure there many fights where the person has steel toe boots and they never stop to think about kicking shins..  Other than protecting your toes from a foot stomp you aren't going to be worth it for "self-defense" purposes.  I put it this way,  I have never heard anyone push steel toe boots as a recommendation for self-defense footwear.
> 
> In my opinion I think trying to rely on a steel toe boot as a weapon will just cause the person to kick ineffectively.  My guess is that you'll also be at risk of breaking your toe as it smashed against the inside of the boot.  Steel toe boots were never designed for the purpose of kicking with the toe.
> 
> Here's a video of someone who has tried using steel toe boots for self defense.  All of what he shows and says pretty much validates my thought about steel toe boots being bad for self defense purposes of kicking with toe.


This is a good point. If you practice consistently to use moves that make the STBs useful, they will be a distinct advantage. Of course, when you're not wearing them, you'll be at a disadvantage, since your training will encourage you to do things that are potentially self-harmful without the boots.

The same can go for any weapon. I rarely choose to carry a weapon, though I frequently bother to note potential weapons around me. I figure the latter means I'm more likely to have a weapon handy, since I'm looking for them in the environment. I used to carry a gun, but spend too much time in places where they are not allowed (in my state, that includes anyplace people pay admission and any place people put up a sign). I used to carry a kubotan, but I can't take that on a plane, and I fly several times a month. In the end, I rely on my skills and whatever weapons I have handy.


----------



## mograph

JowGaWolf said:


> My guess is that you'll also be at risk of breaking your toe as it smashed against the inside of the boot.


Now there's a compelling argument!


----------



## drop bear

Steel caps do more damage if you have a guy on the deck and you are kicking them in the face.

For me by the time I am in that position I am generally looking at ways to do less damage.


----------



## crazydiamond

*What SD items do you carry? *

I don't know about "everywhere" but into the big city every day -  I carry a small tactical flashlight, 3" blade, and a tactical pen.


----------



## Dirty Dog

gerardbu07059 said:


> Non of those things are SD they are weapons you can be as effective with a rolled up newspaper



Welcome to MartialTalk. 
It's a shame that your first post has to be so... misguided...
Weapons absolutely are a part of self defense. To claim otherwise is just ridiculous.
Similarly, to claim you can be "just as effective with a rolled up newspaper" as you be with a real weapon is also pretty silly.
You're not seriously suggesting that a rolled up newspaper is as effective as the knife in my front pocket are you?
And then there's the Glock 19 that generally sits behind my right hip... 
While I am a big fan of improvised weapons, and do believe that they can be used effectively, it's utter nonsense to claim that they're even close to being as effective as an actual weapon. Especially in the hands of someone who has spent significant time training in the use of that weapon.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk.
> It's a shame that your first post has to be so... misguided...
> Weapons absolutely are a part of self defense. To claim otherwise is just ridiculous.
> Similarly, to claim you can be "just as effective with a rolled up newspaper" as you be with a real weapon is also pretty silly.
> You're not seriously suggesting that a rolled up newspaper is as effective as the knife in my front pocket are you?
> And then there's the Glock 19 that generally sits behind my right hip...
> While I am a big fan of improvised weapons, and do believe that they can be used effectively, it's utter nonsense to claim that they're even close to being as effective as an actual weapon. Especially in the hands of someone who has spent significant time training in the use of that weapon.


From what I've seen at the range, some folks would, actually, be as effective with the rolled-up newspaper as with your 9mm.


----------



## Flatfish

RTKDCMB said:


> Most or all of these items would be illegal in most civilized countries and good luck trying to convince a judge that you were using these items for self defense.





RTKDCMB said:


> Most or all of these items would be illegal in most civilized countries and good luck trying to convince a judge that you were using these items for self defense.




Unfortunately THIS is legal:


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

RTKDCMB said:


> Most or all of these items would be illegal in most civilized countries and good luck trying to convince a judge that you were using these items for self defense.


Nothing illegal about this. I had this on my waist once when I walked into Austin police academy. I didn't get any trouble.


----------



## Kickboxer101

A steel toe cap to the groin will probably stop most attackers....it'll also stop their kids attacking because they'll be non existent after that lol


----------



## JowGaWolf

Kickboxer101 said:


> A steel toe cap to the groin will probably stop most attackers....it'll also stop their kids attacking because they'll be non existent after that lol


  As someone who has some experience with being kick in the groin, I can say with certainty that a kick to the groin with or without steel toe boots is painful.  I've been kicked, kneed, punched, and have had things like tennis balls, footballs, soccer balls, lacrosse balls, hand bags, falling on bike frames, and basketballs put me down lol. 

It turns out that steel toe boots don't work as well as one would think






Now for some more entertainment.

Notice how he treats the baby after it happens.  





Notice how the son says "I don't like daddy" after it happens.





On a side note there are an amazing number of people willingly letting others kick them in the groin.  The good news is that we probably won't have to worry about them passing on their genes.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Flatfish said:


> Unfortunately THIS is legal:



Ben-Hur's car.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Nothing illegal about this. I had this on my waist once when I walked into Austin police academy. I didn't get any trouble.


Well I did say  'Most or all'.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

*What SD items do you carry?*

It says to "knock you out with one strike." 







This is good for long distance and 100% legal.


----------



## kehcorpz

Hi folks!

I'm in Germany and all the stuff you posted isnt allowed her, like brass knuckles and so on.

With SD item I didn't men obvious weapons. Carrying a real weapon is risky cause then you could get into legal trouble
even when you only defend yourself.

I also ask myself how likely is it that in a real fight you even get the chance to kick somebody against the shin? What if
you simply dont have that much time or what if the attacker is too fast so that you wont even be able to kick him?

Kicking also disrupts your balance. :/

But generally said I feel better with ST boots than lets say with sneakers. Sneakers definitely are not useful at all in combat.


----------



## JowGaWolf

kehcorpz said:


> Hi folks!
> 
> I'm in Germany and all the stuff you posted isnt allowed her, like brass knuckles and so on.
> 
> With SD item I didn't men obvious weapons. Carrying a real weapon is risky cause then you could get into legal trouble
> even when you only defend yourself.
> 
> I also ask myself how likely is it that in a real fight you even get the chance to kick somebody against the shin? What if
> you simply dont have that much time or what if the attacker is too fast so that you wont even be able to kick him?
> 
> Kicking also disrupts your balance. :/
> 
> But generally said I feel better with ST boots than lets say with sneakers. Sneakers definitely are not useful at all in combat.


I think you put too much value in kicking shins with steel toe boots.  There are  many different ways to kick a leg that are more effective than kicking shins with steel toe boots


----------



## Langenschwert

JowGaWolf said:


> If you are in a fight, the boots aren't going to be such a beneficial advantage that you'll win a fight *solely* because you have steel toe boots.



I saw what you did there.


----------



## Dirty Dog

kehcorpz said:


> I also ask myself how likely is it that in a real fight you even get the chance to kick somebody against the shin? What if
> you simply dont have that much time or what if the attacker is too fast so that you wont even be able to kick him?



If you can't fight back, you're going to lose. It's that simple. 



kehcorpz said:


> Kicking also disrupts your balance. :/



Only if you're doing it wrong. If anything, the added weight of your armor plated boot flailing around on the end of a lever (your leg) is going to lead to the lack of skill (which is the actual cause of your balance disruption, not the kick) even more pronounced.



kehcorpz said:


> But generally said I feel better with ST boots than lets say with sneakers. Sneakers definitely are not useful at all in combat.


[/QUOTE]

Also not true.

It looks like you came here having already made up your mind that steel toe boots are an awesome weapon (they're not) and looking for validation of your preconceived notion (which you didn't get) and are now just trying to rationalize your position.

I've treated countless people following assaults of various sorts, and I cannot say that the type of shoe worn makes any significant difference in the severity of the injuries. There are too many other factors involved. 

Personally, I'd rather wear sneakers. I can run faster (which is valid self defense), and move my ankle (which is important to proper kicking technique as well as proper body mechanics in all sorts of movement) and kick hard enough to break things.


----------



## crazydiamond

kehcorpz said:


> Hi folks!
> 
> I'm in Germany and all the stuff you posted isnt allowed her, like brass knuckles and so on.
> .



You can't carry a flashlight ? I hear it can get dark in Germany.

Or a pen - ya know - to sign checks for a couple of countries in the EU?


----------



## kehcorpz

Pens and flashlights are allowed, but how helpful are they? Some people advocate kubotans and others say they suck. Pretty confusing.

If STBs arent really good then this sucks. But I'm not switching to sneakers. I like boots in general and I cant really run fast anyway lol.

What kind of kicks would you recommend against an attacker?


----------



## Dirty Dog

kehcorpz said:


> What kind of kicks would you recommend against an attacker?



Um... all of them? There's these things called "circumstances" you know. And those will determine the most effective response.


----------



## oftheherd1

kehcorpz said:


> Pens and flashlights are allowed, but how helpful are they? Some people advocate kubotans and others say they suck. Pretty confusing.
> 
> If STBs arent really good then this sucks. But I'm not switching to sneakers. I like boots in general and I cant really run fast anyway lol.
> 
> What kind of kicks would you recommend against an attacker?



If, as seems so, you think knives, and perhaps clubs would be effective, why would pens and flashlights not be?  Have you thought that through?  And what do they have to do with kubotans?

It seems that in Dirty Dog's 2nd sentence in his 3rd quote in post #33, he has you pegged.  If not, then you might want to think about how you might express yourself a little more clearly.


----------



## Rayrob

This is an interesting link. And although clogs didn't have steel toe caps they were solidly built. 

A vicious clog fight

My personal take on this is that steel toe cap boots would be more of a hindrance than a help, especially for kicking at the shin. They would not make up for a lack of skill or be some kind of equaliser. To land with the cap part of the boot you would have to be close to your opponent, so close that you cold be struck with: elbows, hands, feet, knees or head,. At the same time offering up your entire body and most vulnerable areas as targets. If you don't get blasted out before you could kick to the shin then at close range a stop kick or leg jamb could negate any advantage a boot could offer. It would be like turning up at the golf course with only one club in your bag.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

kehcorpz said:


> Sneakers definitely are not useful at all in combat.


One time I decided to get into a fight just because I had my running shoes on. I had confidence that I could outrun my opponents after the fight if needed.



kehcorpz said:


> I like boots in general and I cant really run fast anyway lol.


IMO, there is no MA skill that can be more important than "be able to outrun your opponent." Not only you may have to run away from guys who try to kill you, you may also have to run away from "flying bullets" and "fat cops".

Believe it or not, I had outrun a motorcycle chasing (the guy sat behind the driver had a samurai sword in his hand) once in my life.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kehcorpz said:


> Hi folks!
> 
> I'm in Germany and all the stuff you posted isnt allowed her, like brass knuckles and so on.
> 
> With SD item I didn't men obvious weapons. Carrying a real weapon is risky cause then you could get into legal trouble
> even when you only defend yourself.
> 
> I also ask myself how likely is it that in a real fight you even get the chance to kick somebody against the shin? What if
> you simply dont have that much time or what if the attacker is too fast so that you wont even be able to kick him?
> 
> Kicking also disrupts your balance. :/
> 
> But generally said I feel better with ST boots than lets say with sneakers. Sneakers definitely are not useful at all in combat.


Actually, I'd rather be in sneakers than in ST boots. Better mobility, and less weight (so faster kicks, if I'm going to use them).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kehcorpz said:


> Pens and flashlights are allowed, but how helpful are they? Some people advocate kubotans and others say they suck. Pretty confusing.
> 
> If STBs arent really good then this sucks. But I'm not switching to sneakers. I like boots in general and I cant really run fast anyway lol.
> 
> What kind of kicks would you recommend against an attacker?


As with anything else, it's only useful if you know how to use it well enough. For me, a pen isn't all that useful, but a kubotan would be. A knife would be better, but I can't carry them often enough (as with the kubotan). A cane is better than a kubotan, less so than a knife, and I can literally take it anywhere I want. I'd be better served by a sword, but that's not legal anywhere I know of.


----------



## kehcorpz

But what exactly do you do with a kubotan? Do you just stab with it like with a knife?
Or do you hold it in your fist and then try to hit the attacker in the face cause a gaping wound all across the face?

A disadvantage of a kubotan with a sharp edge compared to a small flashlight with the same dimensions with a non-sharp edge
could be that if you're attacked you have restraints cause it's sharp and can do much more damage than a flashlight.

Another disadvantage of defending with a sharp object is getting in contact with the attacker's blood. I wouldn't want to get in contact
with any bodily fluids. This in itself is dangerous cause of hiv and other diseases. Then all you have to do is slightly rupture the skin on your
hand during the defense and then his blood gets into your wound and voila. Nowadays you never know what kind of infectious diseases a person
has, especially creeps which attack harmless people.


----------



## Dirty Dog

kehcorpz said:


> But what exactly do you do with a kubotan? Do you just stab with it like with a knife?
> Or do you hold it in your fist and then try to hit the attacker in the face cause a gaping wound all across the face?



Has anybody mentioned to you yet that you cannot learn martial arts from the internet. Because you cannot.



kehcorpz said:


> A disadvantage of a kubotan with a sharp edge compared to a small flashlight with the same dimensions with a non-sharp edge
> could be that if you're attacked you have restraints cause it's sharp and can do much more damage than a flashlight.



Um... you don't actually know what a kubotan is, do you? Because they don't have sharp edges...



kehcorpz said:


> Another disadvantage of defending with a sharp object is getting in contact with the attacker's blood.



And you don't think blunt trauma causes bleeding? Real life is not Hollywood.



kehcorpz said:


> I wouldn't want to get in contact with any bodily fluids.



Then you best not ever fight. At all. Don't spar, even.



kehcorpz said:


> This in itself is dangerous cause of hiv and other diseases. Then all you have to do is slightly rupture the skin on your
> hand during the defense and then his blood gets into your wound and voila. Nowadays you never know what kind of infectious diseases a person
> has, especially creeps which attack harmless people.



You don't actually know anything about blood borne pathogens either, clearly.
There is zero risk of transmission if blood gets on intact skin. That would be none. Zilch. Nada. Bupkiss. A needle stick from a person with HIV carries a 1 in 1000 (or lower, some studies say 1 in 3000) chance of transmission.

You're also displaying a shocking ignorance of what populations are affected by blood borne pathogens.


----------



## kehcorpz

I confused kubotan with self-defense pen. Pens are sharp.

What do you think about sharp pens? Are they good or bad? They certainly can cause much more damage especially if they arent used
to press against trigger point but when they're used to stab or hit somebody with the sharp edge.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kehcorpz said:


> But what exactly do you do with a kubotan? Do you just stab with it like with a knife?
> Or do you hold it in your fist and then try to hit the attacker in the face cause a gaping wound all across the face?
> 
> A disadvantage of a kubotan with a sharp edge compared to a small flashlight with the same dimensions with a non-sharp edge
> could be that if you're attacked you have restraints cause it's sharp and can do much more damage than a flashlight.
> 
> Another disadvantage of defending with a sharp object is getting in contact with the attacker's blood. I wouldn't want to get in contact
> with any bodily fluids. This in itself is dangerous cause of hiv and other diseases. Then all you have to do is slightly rupture the skin on your
> hand during the defense and then his blood gets into your wound and voila. Nowadays you never know what kind of infectious diseases a person
> has, especially creeps which attack harmless people.



There are many ways to use a kubotan. It can be - as you implied - used as a striking weapon. It can also be used to reinforce the fist (like a roll of coins). It can be used to activate pain points, to make throws and grappling locks more painful.

IMO, the arguments about blood are relevant to nearly any weapon: knives, sticks, guns, etc. I will take the chance, if I'm exchanging nearly certain injury for possible infection.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kehcorpz said:


> I confused kubotan with self-defense pen. Pens are sharp.
> 
> What do you think about sharp pens? Are they good or bad? They certainly can cause much more damage especially if they arent used
> to press against trigger point but when they're used to stab or hit somebody with the sharp edge.


I think there's a legal problem with literally anything marketed as a weapon. There are metal pens I'll use, but I won't carry one marketed as a defensive weapon. It's too easy for opposing counsel to paint you as someone who was looking for a fight. If I'm going to deal with that risk, I'm carrying a gun or other powerful weapon. If I'm not going that route, I'll choose something that's a reasonable weapon but isn't marketed as such.

That's for the US. I'm not sure what the legal situation is elsewhere, but here it's very easy to get sued (and lose a lot of money) even if courts find you criminally innocent.


----------



## Dirty Dog

kehcorpz said:


> I confused kubotan with self-defense pen. Pens are sharp.



I suppose that wold depend on your definition of "sharp"... personally, I've never seen a sharp pen.


----------



## kehcorpz

With tactical pen I mean stuff like this:

Arrival Tactical Pen Anti skid Hard anodic oxidation Self Defense tool emergency Hot New Arrival-in Self Defense Supplies from Security & Protection on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

These items are allowed where I live while other items for example the spikey are forbidden!
https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t...n.jpg?ig_cache_key=NTY3MDIyODg4OTExODY3OTg3.2

These decision appear random to me. Why should the spikey be more dangerous than a tactical pen? I'd say that a tactical pen can cause much more damage than this
spikey thing.


But now I also wonder if even carrying a legal kubotan or tactical pen is bad cause in case you have to defend yourself it may make you look like someone who's looking for
trouble and cause of this carrying kubotan/tactical pens. normal people do not use them. the only people who carry them are people which worry about their security which isn't
forbidden. but it could as well be used against you. then the attacker is suddenly the poor victim and you're the bad guy. 
nowadays you never know what could happen.

To me it seems like an attacker can attack people and in case he loses the defending person mustnt really do much to him. it's ridicolous somehow.
this is like wanting to drink milk but not paying for a cow. they want the chance to attack people but if it goes wrong then you mustnt hurt them.

for example a vile degenerate creep wants attacks a harmless person simply out of fun. he tries to throw punches against the head and kick the legs and stomach
so it's clear that he really wants to do some real damage.
now if the person being attacked by this creep could quickly end the fight in a way where nobody gets hurt then is he demanded to do this?
Why should the creep get out of this without punishment?

I my opinion if a creep attacks with the intention to cause serious damage then the just punishment would be to do to him what he wanted to do to others.
This is the only language they understand. If they notice that there is no real punishment and they can attack people and rob people and a few hours later
they're back on the streets then they have even less respect for the police. in germany it's like this. the police catches creeps which are usually already known
to the police and then they're brought to the police station and a few hours later they're back on the street again. the creeps are uncivilized and vile but they're
not entirely dumb. they are able to learn new things and adapt. when they do something criminal and the police catches them and later on releases them and
the same thing repeats itself then in a very short time they'll feel like they're untouchable and that even the police cant harm them. but the german laws are not
meant to be strict and to settle things once and for all. judges also suffer from this. they say we need this and that we need better laws so that we can even deal
with all the criminals but nobody listens to them. it's weird. usually one would think that the political parties should care about blatant defects but they dont.
it's like you live in a skyscraper and there fire on some floors, other floors are under water and nobody cares.


----------



## MAfreak

what i wrote earlier about the keys wasn't a joke. it can be a little knife or a that kobudo-weapon (i forgot the name of it) you posted as photo number two.







i trained once with tactical pen and didn't like it very much. joint locks with sticks, in my opinion, are more difficult to do then with bare hands. you can strike someone with the tip to the temple or the neck or whatever but this also could do real pens and keys and carrying them isn't illegal anywere, i guess.


----------



## kehcorpz

But when you hold the keys like on pic 2 in the middle then i doubt you can punch hard with them. they'll probably move in the hand.

what do you think about this here? they're very cheap. but i guess this stuff isnt allowed in germany either. 
i think i read that every item which is meant to be used as a stabbing weapon or which increases punching power is automatically forbidden.

Security Protection Personal Self Defense Supplies Self defense Stinger Duron Drill Easy Carry Protection Tool Nylon Plastic-in Self Defense Supplies from Security & Protection on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


----------



## MAfreak

when they move in the hand, they already drilled holes in the body of the attacker.
not allowed are for example nunchucks (as strangeling weapon) and knuckle dusters, which also was a kobudo weapon in the beginning. you are allowed to own tonfas and such, and also small single-edged jackknifes, where the blade comes out at the side with up to about 6 cm i think. but you aren't allowed to have these things in reach, for example trouserpockets. but you are allowed to carry them in a backpack and such. what a bull****.


----------



## kehcorpz

yes these rules are ridiculous.
some things are generally forbidden, others are not forbidden but also mustnt be carried outside. as if criminals care about these rules.
the only ones affected by them are normal people.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MAfreak said:


> what i wrote earlier about the keys wasn't a joke. it can be a little knife or a that kobudo-weapon (i forgot the name of it) you posted as photo number two.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i trained once with tactical pen and didn't like it very much. joint locks with sticks, in my opinion, are more difficult to do then with bare hands. you can strike someone with the tip to the temple or the neck or whatever but this also could do real pens and keys and carrying them isn't illegal anywere, i guess.


In my opinion, using keys like this is more likely to hurt you than them. Especially #2 - you'd better be done after the first contact, because your hand will be a mess.


----------



## MAfreak

yeah some say so, and you'd better not try to hit the skull but on the other hand you mustn't even hit full power. i hit heavy bags with it, its no big problem. except of sharp edges of the keys its even useful to have something small in the hand, when fist striking, to protect the fingerbones, they get less compressed then.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MAfreak said:


> yeah some say so, and you'd better not try to hit the skull but on the other hand you mustn't even hit full power. i hit heavy bags with it, its no big problem. except of sharp edges of the keys its even useful to have something small in the hand, when fist striking, to protect the fingerbones, they get less compressed then.


In the hand, sure. Between the fingers, not so much. As for hitting a heavy bag, that's a more controlled environment, and even there it would be easy to hurt your hand if you hit hard enough for it to be useful. If I have to hit softer in order to use the keys, I'm better off just hitting harder without them - with the bonuses that 1) I don't have to arrange the keys, and 2) my hand is available for gripping, too.


----------



## Tez3

kehcorpz said:


> but it could as well be used against you. then the attacker is suddenly the poor victim and you're the bad guy.



If the attacker uses your weapon against you he is not the 'poor victim'.



kehcorpz said:


> To me it seems like an attacker can attack people and in case he loses the defending person mustnt really do much to him. it's ridicolous somehow.
> this is like wanting to drink milk but not paying for a cow. they want the chance to attack people but if it goes wrong then you mustnt hurt them.



German law allows a person to defend themselves using reasonable force and even deadly force if the situation warrants it as it has what the Americans call a 'stand your ground' law. Reasonable force means you can for example knock them out which is reasonable however kicking them in the head when they are out and on the ground is not.



kehcorpz said:


> for example a vile degenerate creep wants attacks a harmless person simply out of fun. he tries to throw punches against the head and kick the legs and stomach
> so it's clear that he really wants to do some real damage.
> now if the person being attacked by this creep could quickly end the fight in a way where nobody gets hurt then is he demanded to do this?
> Why should the creep get out of this without punishment?




If you are attacked you defend yourself, if you are attacked punishing the attacker is not your first thought, that would be defending yourself with as little injury as possible then getting away. You are not required to 'punish' the attacker, you friends and family require you to save yourself.


----------



## MAfreak

when we talk about life or death situations, i believe, drilling two painful (even if not deep) holes with keys between the attackers ribs and then run away, although if there could be small bloody scratches on my own fingers, would be a good choice. the keys wouldn't amputate your fingers. we can discuss for weeks, everyone thinks to have the ultimate opinion and readers must decide for themselves.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MAfreak said:


> when we talk about life or death situations, i believe, drilling two painful (even if not deep) holes with keys between the attackers ribs and then run away, although if there could be small bloody scratches on my own fingers, would be a good choice. the keys wouldn't amputate your fingers. we can discuss for weeks, everyone thinks to have the ultimate opinion and readers must decide for themselves.


If they are wearing anything heavier than a thin t-shirt, you are unlikely to leave two holes of more substance than the likely damage your hand. Now he has a pain in his side, and one of your hands is maybe unusable to continue the fight. That's not effective self-defense.


----------



## SenseiHitman

I own all types of weapons so I can train with them and against them. This includes firearms.  We have an old saying in Kempo. " If I will need a weapon my opponent will bring it for me."  Another saying we have in Kempo is  "Any weapon you do not understand is a weapon that can be used against you."  So I own them, train with them, but never carry them.  Karma is the preferred weapon of the Kempo master. If my karma fails, then I will rely on the natural weapons of my body located on my hands, feet, knees,shins, elbows, shoulders, hip, skull etc.  

Kempo is a religion that promotes the ideas of; Peace Love and Flower Power.  Peace, love and flowers keep us sane.  Why are flowers on the list?  Flowers have the power to heal us, and keep us healthy. Never underestimate the power of a flower.


----------



## Don Johnson

kehcorpz said:


> I like cat boots and since I get new ones all the time I thought why not get the ones with steel toes? ... I am looking for useful low profile stuff.


Not sure if they are low profile enough for you, but either would go nicely with the steel toed boots.  Choice would depend on your style and color preference.  I like them both.  I really like the SD tools built into the red one though.  When it comes to SD, I'm more of a proactive guy.
.


----------



## Don Johnson

kehcorpz said:


> I like cat boots and since I get new ones all the time I thought why not get the ones with steel toes? can only be an advantage. they aren't heavier. i got no issues with them.
> 
> but i wonder how useful could they be in a self-defense situation?`i cant really imagine how devastating it would be to be hit by a steel toe when you really try to kick as hard as possible.
> Do you think that you could break someone's shin when you kick against it right with the front of the toe like on the pic. But on the pic he hits his leg with his foot and not the tip of his toe.
> 
> http://www.usarmycombatives.com/images/image1057.jpg
> 
> But even if the tip of the steel toe could be very destructive then the question is how difficult is it in a fight to really kick somebody against the shin and hit exactly with the tip?


Seriously though, there is nothing wrong with steel toe boots.  Obviously, they are made to "protect" people from harm when they may be at risk of something heavy dropping on and doing damage to the toes.  Thus, they would also protect you in the event someone were to stomp on your toes.  

As far as useful for hurting someone, once you have done even a little training in proper kicking technique, you would never use the steel toes.  Why?  Weapons, when properly used, are simply an extension of ourselves.  We NEVER kick with the toes.  Thus, to use the steel toes in your boots as an impact surface would require you to deviate from proper use of your body as a SD tool.


----------



## Don Johnson

kehcorpz said:


> And what SD items do you carry every day?


Everyday, I carry a knife, a tactical pen that actually writes, and a flashlight.  My tactical pen has never been retained by TSA and I fly monthly.  I often carry a glock and/or m&p shield.  When I travel with camper, I also carry a mossberg 12ga.  When on exercise walks, runs, rides, I carry pepper spray for animals.  I am extremely well trained in all of the above, and more.  

More importantly, I am well trained in using the tools that I have with me everywhere, at all times, that pass through all metal detectors.  They include legs, arms, knees, elbows, teeth, you get the idea.  

Most importantly, I think protective tactics.  I pay attention, trust my intuition, anticipate challenges, contemplate solutions, keep my own emotions in check, smile, be nice, avoid the avoidable, de-escalate, exit.  It's all part of good SD training.


----------



## Juany118

I used to wear full composite toe boots at work but transitioned to these http://www.lapolicegear.com/511-12302-xprt-boot.html?Size=9-R&gclid=CjwKEAjwpqq6BRC99aKUkaSjuDsSJAC0pNTVXOogS_NOIEsPhw5IcHVtZ3iEP790Vuu795V5M8OSKBoCIXDw_wcB.  "Just" a kick toe, but there is still a noticeable weight difference and it does what I want it to.  If I am doing a shin kick and the guys zigs instead of zags it helps protect my toes.  I never intend to kick with my toes . 

I also carry one of these on my key ring http://www.amazon.com/Comtech-Stinger-Keating-Re-designed-Manipulator/dp/B006U4CPUS


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Don Johnson said:


> training in proper kicking technique, you would never use the steel toes. Why? Weapons, when properly used, are simply an extension of ourselves. We NEVER kick with the toes. Thus, to use the steel toes in your boots as an impact surface would require you to deviate from proper use of your body as a SD tool.


Depends on where your proper kicking technique comes from. Traditional savate does use kicking with the toes - because it's an art based on using shoes/boots as a weapon.


----------



## Juany118

Tony Dismukes said:


> Depends on where your proper kicking technique comes from. Traditional savate does use kicking with the toes - because it's an art based on using shoes/boots as a weapon.



Such as in the fouette'.  Savate was actually fun 25 odd years ago. Damnit you have me wondering where that old French immigrant neighbor got to!!!!!


----------



## Don Johnson

Tony Dismukes said:


> Depends on where your proper kicking technique comes from. Traditional savate does use kicking with the toes - because it's an art based on using shoes/boots as a weapon.


I stand corrected.  33 years and still learning.  Thanks Tony


----------



## MAfreak

i'd always be careful with round kicks. no matter if ball, instep, shin... hitting someones bent knee or elbow full force may derange you for the situiation, not to mention the worse case of breaking the leg, like already happened in kickboxing and mma. would be worse in self-defense. i'd prefer straight kicks, if possible from the distance and stances. especially as straight techniques basically are stronger than round techniques.


----------



## lklawson

Don Johnson said:


> Seriously though, there is nothing wrong with steel toe boots.  Obviously, they are made to "protect" people from harm when they may be at risk of something heavy dropping on and doing damage to the toes.  Thus, they would also protect you in the event someone were to stomp on your toes.


The martial art of Savate teaches kicking with shod toes.  Has since at least the 19th century that I can track, though I don't claim to be a Savate expert.



> As far as useful for hurting someone, once you have done even a little training in proper kicking technique, you would never use the steel toes.  Why?  Weapons, when properly used, are simply an extension of ourselves.  We NEVER kick with the toes.  Thus, to use the steel toes in your boots as an impact surface would require you to deviate from proper use of your body as a SD tool.


At least one (probably most) Okinawan karate styles teach the toe kick.  I recall seeing an old B&W photo of an Okinawan master toe kicking a hole in a G.I. Jerry Can (sheet metal gas can).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Don Johnson

lklawson said:


> The martial art of Savate teaches kicking with shod toes.  Has since at least the 19th century that I can track, though I don't claim to be a Savate expert.
> 
> At least one (probably most) Okinawan karate styles teach the toe kick.  I recall seeing an old B&W photo of an Okinawan master toe kicking a hole in a G.I. Jerry Can (sheet metal gas can).
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Yep, Tony mentioned Savate above too and I replied.  





Don Johnson said:


> I stand corrected.  33 years and still learning.  Thanks Tony


Thanks again lklawson.  Probably not a good idea without shoes though


----------



## lklawson

Don Johnson said:


> Thanks again lklawson.  Probably not a good idea without shoes though


I certainly won't be doing any toe kicks sans shoes.  But, that said, there are most definitely martial arts with specific training methods and specific techniques for doing bare-foot toe kicks.  I am aware of at least one Okinawan Karate style which teaches it and would hardly be shocked if there were a great many other arts from many different areas which did the same.  I would particularly expect toe kicking from at least one or two arts originating in China, India, Indonesia, and the Philippines. 

An important note here is that they require specific training and technique methods, apparently similar to "Spear Hand" techniques.  Most people do not have the advantage of that training and would, I suspect, injure themselves if they were to attempt a bare-foot toe kick.  Nevertheless, there are arts which do teach this.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

lklawson said:


> I certainly won't be doing any toe kicks sans shoes.  But, that said, there are most definitely martial arts with specific training methods and specific techniques for doing bare-foot toe kicks.  I am aware of at least one Okinawan Karate style which teaches it and would hardly be shocked if there were a great many other arts from many different areas which did the same.  I would particularly expect toe kicking from at least one or two arts originating in China, India, Indonesia, and the Philippines.
> 
> An important note here is that they require specific training and technique methods, apparently similar to "Spear Hand" techniques.  Most people do not have the advantage of that training and would, I suspect, injure themselves if they were to attempt a bare-foot toe kick.  Nevertheless, there are arts which do teach this.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


One of my old teachers taught a bare-foot toe kick. He conditioned his toe, I have no idea how, and the two times I felt the kick it was incredibly painful. That said, while I learned them I can't imagine conditioning my toe to the point that I can use them so I never focused on it too much. Also can't imagine it would be a good idea sans boots for the average joe.


----------



## FocusedSoul

You can now buy pens which have a sharpened crown for DNA catching and stabbing; these are more popular in the US more than in the UK where I live. 
I am confident in my abilities to not carry and SD items; carrying a gun or anything dangerous in public is a criminal offence here in the UK - the chances of being involved in a fire fight here is slim. 
I suppose it comes down to how safe you feel.


----------

