# Being Fit



## Mon Mon (Jun 30, 2004)

How important is it for a martial artist to be in shape? Just Curious.


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## Genin Andrew (Jun 30, 2004)

This question could be approached from many angles and viewpoints.Personally i believe being fit is important,i'm not the fittest guy in the world or anything but i do my bit to try and stay healthy.

Physical fitness is no more important than maintaining a healthy mind.After all the techniques you learn are no more than mere manifestations of the mind,you can have the greatest musles but without your brain and a healthy mind your techniques are useless.

People spend hours in the gym and running to increase physical fitness and strength and spend the same time in meditation to strengthen the mind,i am in no position to say which is more important but i believe an even balance is very necessary in your MA development.

much respect
-andrew


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## Don Roley (Jun 30, 2004)

Define "in shape." Round is a shape.   

Seriously, I do not think you have to be some sort of Greek god to do this art. Two of the six ninja the shogunate sent to Shimabara were in their 60s. If you can't do a technique at that age because everything relies on muscle, it is not worth studying. A friend of mine (non=Bujinkan) said that you should study as if you were 70 becasue hopefully you'll be that age someday and then what are you going to do?

Indeed, I have seen a few people plug holes in their technique by using muscle. If you have it, its great. But if you meet a bigger guy, or are tired, or get old, what do you have to fall back on? I have heard that Nagato lost a lot of his old muscle mass on purpose because he felt he was relying to much on it instead of good taijutsu. He also wanted to build up more endurance muscles rather than the snap type he used as a kick-boxing champ.

But on the other hand, I was talking with some guys visiting Japan a while back and the subject of a certain member of the Bujinkan came up. (Note- he is not registered here at Martialtalk.) The guys brought up the point, "how the heck can you call yourself a martial artist when you look like the Staypuff Marshmellow Man?"

We practice this art to avoid violent deaths and live long, fullfilling lives. So why are there so many martial artists that look like they are a decade away from triple bypass surgery? I have seen guys come into class that are just plain fat, and then they sit down and start munching on potatoe chips, chocolate cake bars and such while waiting for the teacher.

Staying within a healthy weight is not a matter of some secret technique. You just put the damn Twinkies down. You take walks and use the stairs from time to time instead of the elevator. You use more calories than you consume. Even if it takes a long time, you can get to a healthy weight.

My mother in law has to check her insulin levels now, and she has never been what I would call fat. There are so many health hazards that can be avoided if we just watch what we eat. It is silly to do pushups and learn things like how to snap necks on the excuse that we need to do so in order to survive to a ripe old age and then not even bother to check our cholesteral levels at least once a year.


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## Enson (Jun 30, 2004)

i agree with don. also all that talk of twinkies is getting me hungry. i believe that one needs to be strong and healthy to present himself as a good martial artist. although there does need to be balance and happiness in your life. you should read a "purpose driven life" rick warren for references on balance. you might have to take a guy down that is alot bigger than you and realistlcly speaking sometimes you won't be able to do anything because he out weighs you by 200 lbs. anyway apart from that it would be better to do pushups then eat ice cream.

peace


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## r.severe (Jun 30, 2004)

Different points...

I believe Nagato sensei 'was' a kickboxing guy.... many many many years ago..say 20 or more years ago... People bring this up like he trains when he was younger.... he doesn't from my conversations with him. He told me he was married and had to many kids to train like he use to when he was much younger. Maybe this was a reason why.. in fact.. he doesn't look the way he did 20 years ago.. and lost his muscle... and moves very stiff in his hip area. Changes in his training over the years. That should be a consideration when bringing up men or women... their living conditions and how they view fitness or being in shape.

WE all have a choice.. choices have consequences................... this is the base for sanmitsu.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Cryozombie (Jun 30, 2004)

On this subject, has anyone read "The Care and Feeding of a Martial Artist" series of books that Dick Severence sells on his website?

Ive been considering purchasing them, and was curious if they were good books?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 30, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Different points...
> 
> this is the base for sanmitsu.



Ralph, 

What is Sanmitsu?


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## r erman (Jun 30, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ralph,
> 
> What is Sanmitsu?




I'm not Ralph, but sanmitsu is the 'triple secret' of mikkyo.  The alignment of thought, word, and deed to shape ones' intention.


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## Elizium (Jun 30, 2004)

Well me for one, is 5 stone overweight, bad knee(s), get bad back pain every once in a while, has not much muscle and so on.  I do taijutsu.  I am fit.  My blood pressure is normal for my weitght and size.  Do not ask me for my BMI as I have no idea.  And my mom is a type 2 diabetic, so I watch what I eat to assist her in her diet.  Away and it is king size swiss rolls or large kebab.  Yummy!


But I walk sometimes to the dojo, which is 8 miles or so away from my house.  Or walk into town and/or back.  Have an ab trainer and a total body fitness gym (at moment gathering dust).

But as long as you are able to breathe, do the technique and walk out alive, you will be able to do taijutsu.


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## bobster_ice (Dec 1, 2005)

im onli 14 but ive been doing MA for 10 years, fitness isnt reli important to me, all i care about is strength, speed and stamina, fitness would come last for me as  i dont need it


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## Shirt Ripper (Dec 1, 2005)

Bobster, how would you define fitness?  Just curious.


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## arnisador (Dec 2, 2005)

bobster_ice said:
			
		

> itness isnt reli important to me, all i care about is strength, speed and stamina



What else is there to fitness?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 2, 2005)

Personally for me fitness is important. You really do not need
to have tremendous fitness to be able to perform a technique.
However, if you are tired, run down, been running, or just 
generally out of gas some level of fitness may help you in a 
moment of action. Really, you have to be fit enough to perform
the technique or techniques you are attempting to apply.
This does not mean using excessive strength or trying to muscle
through something but it does mean that you need to be fit enough
to move your body appropriately. If you are so gassed or unfit that
in the moment of conflict you cannot execute anything even a 
simple movement such as moving your body out of the way then 
you have a serious problem. If you have ever watched a basketball
game and watched one team wear another down so much that the
worn down team is holding onto their shorts to rest, you get the 
picture. The fresher team just drives right by them and gets an 
easy shot. Fitness is just one more thing that can aid you in a 
violent confrontation.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Shogun (Dec 2, 2005)

i





> m onli 14 but ive been doing MA for 10 years, fitness isnt reli important to me, all i care about is strength, speed and stamina, fitness would come last for me as i dont need it


 
Maybe he meant "Nutrition" or "flexibility". If thats the case, I believe the opposite. Nutrition and flexibility (and proper breathing) are far more important than strength and speed. I kinda view the latter as External fitness, and Nutrition and breathing(correlated with stamina) as internal fitness. and the external stuff gets harder and harder to use as you get older. an example of this is UFC fighter Randy Couture. Couture is 42 years old, and one of the best in the world. He attributes his skills to a very specialized workout routine. The routine includes basic workouts like weight lifting and running, but becomes very focused on a Phytonutrient diet, and flexibility and tendon training. These things make his technique incredibly strong, even though he lifts weights half as much as people half his age.


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## Shinkengata (Dec 12, 2005)

Fitness is decently important to me, i guess. I don't have time to engage in an y real exercise, but i walk 4-8 miles a night with my job, so i guess i do alright. I find it incredibly hard to gain weight, so there is no real problem there. My cardiovascular endurance is quite pitiful despite my physical shape, dimensions, and my age, but that comes from lack of cardio exercise, a half-pack a day smoking habit and working in an environment where there is cigarette smoke in the air constantly.

Plus i REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hate jogging or running of any kind.


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## Connovar (Dec 26, 2005)

The most recent medical evidence is that exercise needs is more important than wt loss when discussing health. Being fit reduces the morbidity and mortality associated with elevated cholosterol, diabetes or hypertension. Go for fitness first and the wt loss with appropriate diet will follow. 

Walking in general is not good enough unless you are very elderly or are doing olympic style race walking. Cardiovascular fitness require a minimum of 20 minutes with your heart rate maintained within 60 to 85 percent of your age adjusted max heart rate. Your max heart rate is generally calculated as 220- your age. 

Strength training is also very important especially as you age as your will continually lose muscle mass if not working the muscles.  Age especially effects the body core muscle and proximal limb muscles. These muscle are important to able to do routine daily tasks and also will reduce your risk of significant back problems.

Finally flexibility is important to maintain as the body also loses it as one gets older.

Exercise science just like many other fields continues to develop and advance. Dont make the mistake of following outdated concepts and practices to maintain your health even if they are traditional.


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2005)

I've heard you can do pretty well with walking, if you're sedentary to start with...it's a good way to begin. But yes, it doesn't get the heart rate up as much as is desirable!


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## mantis (Dec 26, 2005)

Mon Mon said:
			
		

> How important is it for a martial artist to be in shape? Just Curious.


works for bruce lee
works for beverly hills ninja
i guess it dont matter, aye?


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## Don Roley (Jan 2, 2006)

I have just finished reading "'Secrets' of Effective Offense" by Marc MacYoung and I have to wonder out loud if strength is something we should try to avoid.

What he said mirrors a lot of what I have seen. People tend to do something and judge it good if it ends in the desired result. The other guy hits the ground, you pat yourself on the back and stop thinking about it.

But guys that have muscle sometimes rely on that during training without being aware of it. It works great when you are young, fit and rested. But if you loose your strength, meet a biiger guy or are tired, you can't rely on that strength being there. As you train, thus shall you fight.

Take a look at the Japanese shihan. People talk about how Nagato is a big guy. But he is almost tiny compared to a lot of the non-Japanese. Yet all of them, no matter how old and tiny, are able to twist us into shapes God never intended us to take. Obviously, they never had to rely on strength. One of Hatsumi's original students once told me that the years he spent with a condition that sapped his strenght is what made him the great artist he is today. Without the strength of his youth, he _had_ to move in such a way as to not need it.

I would love to have strength and not need it. But I am wondering if by building up muscle I will end up relying on it without being conscious of what I am doing. I have seen that in others, I don't doubt it can happen to me as well.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 2, 2006)

Mon Mon said:
			
		

> How important is it for a martial artist to be in shape? Just Curious.


 
If you are in good shape, your timing and reflexes are better. I'm not very large and I have to do some sort of strenght training to compensate. True, perfect technique would do that as well (and as others have pointed out, an over-reliance on strength is a real long-term minus), but I have a lot of interests besides MA...


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## green meanie (Jan 2, 2006)

I think if there's any concern at all of being jumped and having to scramble for more than a minute or two you better be in some kind of shape. But even if that isn't a concern... take care of yourself. Your quality of life will be so much better if you do and that's important. 'Cause if you're gonna be here awhile you might as well enjoy it.


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## eyebeams (Jan 11, 2006)

In my experience, a technical correction that consists exclusively of critiques of the strength you are using is worthless. Any critique of that sort is better served by saying something more detailed.

That said, it is both easy for strength to be mistaken for proper technique and for proper technique to be mistaken for strength.


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## Connovar (Jan 11, 2006)

You need strength and technique in the combat systems. (unless of course you are in a zero gravity environment).  Sports medicine and althletic training science's have all proven the value of both.Usually conditioning (usually a combination of stretching, cardiovascular and strength training) is begun before technique training is begun. It continues parallel with the skills training from then on. The conditioning allows greater time and effectiveness to be spent on skills training because of its abililty to extend stamina and reduce recovery time btw movements. It also reduce injury risk and promotes faster healing if injured. Generally if two people have the approx same skill the better conditioned athlete will win. In many situations skill alone cannot compensate for inferior levels  of strength and conditioning. This is what the science says. Its now up to us to learn to apply it to our specific disciplines.


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## Don Roley (Jan 12, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> You need strength and technique in the combat systems.



I could introduce you to a bunch of little old men here in Japan that would make you revise that statement to only include 'technique.'

They only need enough strength to stand up and walk across the room. And yet they toss guys several times their size and decades younger than them across the room on a regular basis.


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## Connovar (Jan 12, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I could introduce you to a bunch of little old men here in Japan that would make you revise that statement to only include 'technique.'
> 
> They only need enough strength to stand up and walk across the room. And yet they toss guys several times their size and decades younger than them across the room on a regular basis.


 
I would look forward to taking you up on that but I dont work in Japan anymore. However any of them have could have plenty of opportunities to go to a Pride or K1 event and show it to the world. Takamatsu used to do challenge matches, so it obviously isnt totally against tradition.

The scientific facts are as stated earlier. If you want to be the best athlete whether martial arts or other you need a good conditioning program which includes strengthening. Avoid  it an you remain suboptimum.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 12, 2006)

"Even in Kashiwabara City (the small town in the mountains south of Kyoto and west of Iga where Takamatsu-sensei lived) there were wrestling matches with such famous wrestlers as Rikidozan (Western style pro wrestler famous in post WWII Japan) and others. Certainly professional wrestlers are in great shape, so if they really fought in a serious way, it would be difficult for a match to last very long. The reason they can fight for so long is that they are careful to avoid damage to vital spots. That is why they can have match after match from one day to the next. If they bite, they use their lower teeth to the forehead in order to draw lots of blood in a very visible way. When they stomp to the stomach, they coordinate it with an out breath. In professional wrestling, there are rules, and these rules are observed very carefully..." "
"If I had to fight Rikidozan, there is only one way for me to win. Of course, if he can hit me first with his karate, I would lose. So then what is my winning method? I would use both palms to his ears with a sharp strike. This is the ninja's happa-ken ("eight-leaves fist" sharp palm smack) strike. When I use this strike, it breaks both eardrums. Even a powerful man like Rikidozan would wind up with a concussion. If this happa-ken is used as a part of modern fighting arts, it will produce power as great as or even more fearsome than Rikidozan's karate." 

- From the 1963 Tokyo Sports interview with Takamatsu sensei


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## DWeidman (Jan 12, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I could introduce you to a bunch of little old men here in Japan that would make you revise that statement to only include 'technique.'


 
Can anyone think of a strategic advantage to being slower than your opponent?

Can anyone think of a strategic advantage to being faster than your opponent?

I suspect this will settle the issue...

-Daniel Weidman


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## Cryozombie (Jan 12, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Can anyone think of a strategic advantage to being slower than your opponent?
> 
> Can anyone think of a strategic advantage to being faster than your opponent?
> 
> ...


 
Let me counterpoint that...

Can you be assured, thruought your life, from now until you are 100, that you will always be faster and stronger than anyone who attacks you?

Can you think of an advantage to training _NOW_ as if you are not stronger and faster than your opponent?


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## DWeidman (Jan 12, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Let me counterpoint that...
> 
> Can you be assured, thruought your life, from now until you are 100, that you will always be faster and stronger than anyone who attacks you?


 
No.  Did I say anything about relying on nothing but speed and strength?



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> Can you think of an advantage to training _NOW_ as if you are not stronger and faster than your opponent?


 
of course.  Training for when you are 75 would prepare you for being 75.

Why, though, would someone who is 30 not take advantage of the fact that he is 30?

Would you honestly give up an advantage today just because you will lose it decades from now?

-Daniel Weidman


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## Connovar (Jan 12, 2006)

The basic point is that good conditioning will make you better at essentially most athletic abilities. So if you do it at 75 or 25 you will be better off. As myself who is approaching geezerhood I watch  research closely. As people get older the need for proper conditioning increases As we age we tend to weaken especially in the proximal limb muscles. (Your reference to old men who can hardly get out of their chairs is typical). Proper resistance trainng can reverse and slow the trend.

Regarding younger folks the strength conditioning makes you stronger and quicker. 

So exercise like walking isnt enough. Swimmers, basketball players, boxers, gymnasts, etc extensively supplement their technique training with conditioning include strengthen to optimize their performance. Who doesnt want to be the best they can be?


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## Don Roley (Jan 12, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Why, though, would someone who is 30 not take advantage of the fact that he is 30?
> 
> Would you honestly give up an advantage today just because you will lose it decades from now?



The  problem is when you come to _rely_ on that advantage and train accordingly. If you have it (strength) you use it. Thus you train as if you can expect it to always be there. When you get tired, or meet someone bigger and stronger than you, you are in deep kimchi.

This is why Nagato actually _lost_ muscle mass. He says that he knew he was relying on his greater strength even though he didn't want to. So he lost a lot of weight and then had to learn to do everything at a very high level of skill to get things to work.

I have seen a lot of people who have a lot of muscle and few of them really get very good. They can pull things off that smaller people can't, not because of skill but because of their mass. They know no other way of moving. They never had to move any other way.

Until they reach age 60.

A friend of mine said that you had better start training now like you were 70 because hopefully someday you will. I like being fit, but I don't expect to be like this forever.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 12, 2006)

I don't know the exact Latin word for "knees", but "in the knees lies the truth". Ideally, as a budoka you'd want (flexible  ) legs of steel, because as we all know taijutsu is about generating power with your lower body. I've seen so many times that both beginners and in black belt ranking people are stopped dead in their tracks when they encounter some sort of obstacle. Beginners tend to try to use the strength of their arms (of course) or start over again, whereas a lot of more experienced people will change technique and/or direction, often in a needlessly violent way. Now I'm not claiming innocence in either case, but sometimes I just want to scream in people's faces that it isn't me resisting, it's their legs not working enough for them.

Which naturally gets a bit awkward when you're training with relatively large people who can't bend their knees as much as others.:asian:


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## Blotan Hunka (Jan 12, 2006)

Sounds like the perfect haven for out of shape people. I dont exercise to be a better martial artist.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 12, 2006)

I agree with don.  Im a physically big guy.  Im not quite 6 feet tall mind you but I am broad, (in both the shoulders and the belly :erg:  ) and In addition to my job (where I climb towers and stuff) I lift weights 4 days a week.  Nothing major, mind you... im not going for a AHNOLD physique, just keeping up my strength for when I rock climb in the summers.  But all that said, Im one of the biggest guys in our school... bulk for bulk. 

As such, I can easily "beat" everyone with muscle, but they tend to out do me when it comes to technique... because they cant rely on muscle when they fight me.  Its a lesson Im taking to heart...

Additionally... why dont I want to take advantage of it when I am 30?  

Two weeks ago I fell off a second story roof, doing an install.  I messed my knee up pretty good (for a minor injury)... and as a result, I can't use the leg quite right too much weight or bending the knee causes a LOT of pain... so I lost a lot of my speed and mobility... as well as some of the leverage I need for that "strength" to come into play.  Its a whole different ballgame in training now... Im just hoping that as my injury continues to improve, I will retain the lessons I am learning about not relying on my size and strength to pull off my techniques.   

Can you imagine, however, If I were attacked by someone of equal or even slightly lesser strength NOW and I needed to rely on that "muscle" to save my butt?  I contemplated it.  I really did.  I'm glad that this happened tho, because the lesson that I will take out of it is PRICELESS.


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## Kreth (Jan 13, 2006)

One way to check if you're muscling a technique is to apply it in super slow motion. This takes a lot of the snap and whip that comes from using muscle out of the equation, and forces you to have better position and angle.


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## Connovar (Jan 13, 2006)

> Two weeks ago I fell off a second story roof, doing an install. I messed my knee up pretty good (for a minor injury)... and as a result, I can't use the leg quite right too much weight or bending the knee causes a LOT of pain... so I lost a lot of my speed and mobility... as well as some of the leverage I need for that "strength" to come into play. Its a whole different ballgame in training now... Im just hoping that as my injury continues to improve, I will retain the lessons I am learning about not relying on my size and strength to pull off my techniques.


 
The use of legs, hips etc in taijitsu still utilize neuromuscular units. The better trained those units are the better you can do the technique. Also taijitsu uses a lot of core body strength rather than arms in order to maintain and hold posture while executing technique. This is not different than other martial skills. The best way to optimize strength is to add overload resistive exerecise such as wts., plyometrics etc.

Boxing (with probably only the exception of the speed jab)primarily uses the legs and hips to generate the power. The core muscles stabilize the trunk andthe limbs primarily only act as a transmitter of force.

BJJ origin is also from the ancient japanese arts. Its also primarily relies upon leverage, balance and timing. The use of hips is the crucial element in this art. The primary differences are application and training methods. The bjj practioner takes his opponent to the ground versus standing methods. Like taijitsu taijitsu most of the class is spent drilling and learining new technique. The primary difference is that approx one third of class time is finished with full speed full resistance sparring to hone the technique and test it.

As the quote from takamatsu above shows the skilled opponent against the stronger and skilled opponent is likely to lose. Dont make the dangerous assumption that Takamatsu made here. In a no rules fight, no one follows the rules. For example the striking technique he described is well known by grapplers and he would either have it used against himself and/or found it countered.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 13, 2006)

Funny that it's ok to draw analogies between Takamatsu and the validity of sparring/competition/pressure testing on one hand, while undermining his capabilities on the other.


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## Connovar (Jan 13, 2006)

I am simply referencing his quote that the opponent he faced was stronger and obviously skilled. He admitted he would lose. His only recourse was to  try a move well known to grapplers and also well defended by them. Grapplers are used to having the head grabbed or swung at etc. They protect it well. A common mistake strikers make against grapplers is to assume they can land a knockout blow when the grappler comes for a takedown. That doesnt happen because the grappler generally has his vital areas protected while moving in and the speed of his forward movement  along with the level change makes it very difficult to strike accurately and powerfully.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 13, 2006)

I accidentally slapped a guy's ear once during a doubleleg he put on...he didn't want to spar anymore after that.


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## Connovar (Jan 13, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I accidentally slapped a guy's ear once during a doubleleg he put on...he didn't want to spar anymore after that.


 
Yes, its a shame, there seem to be a lot of wimps out there. However they tend to be culled out by the sparring.


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## shesulsa (Jan 13, 2006)

Uhhh ... is there any way we could get back to the topic, guys?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 13, 2006)

Yes, let's do that. I just want to say that that particular individual was not in the Bujinkan.


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## Connovar (Jan 13, 2006)

So back to topic. There are generally two ways to improve your ability to fight. One way is just through conditioning, such as going to the gym, lifing wts etc and maybe the occassionally back ally brawl to get some experience. An example here would be a football player.

Another way is to focus primarily on technique. This typical with 95%+ of traditional martial arts. I would put the bujinkan here based upon my experience and the conversation we are having here.

The third way is to combine the two. Its easy to tell this this is preferred method used by those individuals who actually fight a lot against fulling resisting opponents.

The first two ways should be successful against fighting against an unskillled fighter. The third way is the best proven way to fight the skilled and conditioned fighter. IMO the bujinkan would only gain and not lose if appropriate strenghtening etc were added to the curriculum and thats the bottom line, right!


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## Kreth (Jan 13, 2006)

Just curious, Connovar... You obviously don't approve of Bujinkan training methods. Why then do you continue to post in this sub-forum?


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## Connovar (Jan 13, 2006)

They have some good and interesting variations of technique. Also I generally enjoyed the people I trained with. It has some great potential but I dont see it being met by current training methods.IMO


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## elder999 (Jan 13, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have seen a lot of people who have a lot of muscle and few of them really get very good. They can pull things off that smaller people can't, not because of skill but because of their mass. They know no other way of moving. They never had to move any other way.
> 
> Until they reach age 60.
> 
> A friend of mine said that you had better start training now like you were 70 because hopefully someday you will. I like being fit, but I don't expect to be like this forever.


 
Two words:_Jack LaLanne_

Four more words:My friend, _Joseph Greenstein_.

Granted, they're the exception, not the rule, but they should be our (*everyone*, not just martial artists) strength and fitness goal.

As far as martial arts, though, technique should always be primary in practice, and I'm saying that as one of those formerly sickly children who grew into manhood being called "ridiculously strong," and have, to my never ending surprise, no reason as I near 50, to doubt that I'll remain "ridiculously strong,"......at least, _for my age._

And, granted, early in my martial arts training-as a young man, not as a child, I was constantly reminded not to rely on my strength-even told that I was doing something "too strong," particularly in jujutsu.....I didn't have to "give up" any muscle to not use it, though, any more than I had to give it up to keep from crushing people's hands when I shake them.....


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## DWeidman (Jan 13, 2006)

There is a difference between relying on speed and power, and using speed and power because you *can*.

There are far too many people who use the excuse of "technique" to explain why they are fat and out of shape.  

Between two people of equal skill, the stronger / faster one will win.

Give the choice between being stronger or better -- well, most of us would choose better.  As for me - I choose better and stronger / faster.

This discussion comes down to the arena you are planning on executing in - force multipliers (weapons) change the "needed" force...

I am somewhat curious as to what kind of "fighting" everyone on here is expecting to be in when they are 75?

By the way - Nagato didn't slim down to 130 lbs - he is still more than capable on the strength side... From the arguments here, you would think that he is still cheating himself from *really* understanding how to move like Natasha (Brin and Natasha)....

Amusing conversation though...

-Daniel Weidman


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## Connovar (Jan 13, 2006)

Hopefully I will still be doing some sort of MA at that age. Otherwise I guess a mugging would be the next situation (I hope not!)As noted above there a older people still doing taijitsu and apparently in Brazil therea are a number of older men still rolling with young guys and doing well. Since BJJ is very technique driven still possible according to what my instructors have observed on their trips to Brazil. Besides I expect we will be healthier than our parents at that age just like my parents are healthier in their 80's than their parents. Exercise is a great way to reduce the effects of aging. It wont stop it, but properly done along with other factors it can sure slow its effects.


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## shesulsa (Jan 13, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> Two words:_Jack LaLanne_


Wasn't he a proponent for the "less weight, more reps" philosophy for fitness and longevity?


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## elder999 (Jan 13, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Wasn't he a proponent for the "less weight, more reps" philosophy for fitness and longevity?


 
Dontcha mean "isn't he?"


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## shesulsa (Jan 13, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> Dontcha mean "isn't he?"


No, I meant wasn't he in the sense that he used to be very visible to the public as a whole - e.g. his television show.  I'd have to say the average American prolly has never heard of him, though when I was a youngster, his was a household name.

I am aware that he is still very much alive.


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## elder999 (Jan 13, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Wasn't he a proponent for the "less weight, more reps" philosophy for fitness and longevity?


 
More like "more *body*weight, more reps."


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 13, 2006)

The best argument against using strength the way I see it is that it gives your opponent way too much information about what you're doing.

Then of course, there's another side to that fact...with so much of the focus nowadays being on hiding your power and intention to the other person, a lot of people don't learn to differentiate between strength and power.


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## Shirt Ripper (Jan 13, 2006)

Lelanne is good man and held in high regard in the the fitness (and strength) industry.  He was a proponent of doing what you could to stay healthy and strong.  Good man.  Also, 92...correct?  Somewhere in there.

I was very happy to see someone posting on here regarding "The Mighty Atom" and Slim Farman.  Both of them held in _extremely _high regard in the strength world (my world... ).  Slim is honestly an "idle" of mine...though I don't really believe in that type of thing.

I like this thread.


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## shinbushi (Jan 13, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Just curious, Connovar... You obviously don't approve of Bujinkan training methods. Why then do you continue to post in this sub-forum?


not all Bujinkan members are against conditioning and pressure testing.


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## Don Roley (Jan 13, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> By the way - Nagato didn't slim down to 130 lbs - he is still more than capable on the strength side... From the arguments here, you would think that he is still cheating himself from *really* understanding how to move like Natasha (Brin and Natasha)....



Yes he did slim down. He lost a lot of muscle mass on purpose. After some training at his reduced weight, he gained some weight back of a different muscle type.

Previously he had the type of muscles built up by pushups and situps. They give explosive, quick contractions. The muscles he has now are from endurance type of exercises such as getting low into kamae and the like.

Go ahead and ask him. When you see him, you can tell that he is big _for a Japanese._ But he is still dwarfed by many of the visiting students. And despite being smaller and lighter, he can still toss those students across the room.


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## Don Roley (Jan 20, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have seen a lot of people who have a lot of muscle and few of them really get very good. They can pull things off that smaller people can't, not because of skill but because of their mass. They know no other way of moving. They never had to move any other way.



I think I should point out that there are several people I know who are big and move pretty damn good. Luke Molitor is one great example. Kreth's post (#35) about moving slowly seems to be the key to the whole thing. Big guys tend to rely on _inertia_ based on their greater mass to pull things off. If you do things slowly, you build up less inertia and can't use your greater mass.

The examples of big guys that move terribly all seem to have the common denominator that they seem to hate slow training. I had a talk with a Japanese shihan about a rather large Texan many of us are familar with and he said "you really can't expect someone that big to have good taijutsu." But of course, with people like Luke around, you do have examples of people that are big and move very effectivly.

I did not want people to think that I thought _all_ bigguns are doomed to second rate status.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 28, 2006)

Food for thought...heard today from my instructor that it should be the responsibility of the instructors to make sure that the people training are fit 4 fight enough to be able to train hard and push themselves without risking any injuries. That is all.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 2, 2006)

Connovar,

You make some very good points. I'm going to guess that you are an athletic/exercise trainer/therapist ?

For me its a real disappointment to see Bujinkan members which disparage physical conditioning, or claim that it is unimportant. It seems like those people are just unwilling to put forth the time and energy themselves, and then make excuses to justify their position. It is hard work...much different then conventional training. There is no intellectualizing about it and breaking it down ponder its properties, nuiances, and higher meanings. You just do it. Push your self to your potential. And keep going. Even if its hard, uncomfortable, or inconvenient.

Physical strengthening can help everyone, even a desk jockey or computer programmer. Core muscle stabalization exercises at a minimum could drastically increase your quality of life. Cardiac endurance can increase your quality of life, and the length of your life.

If you live your life in a vacuum and dont care if your level of fitness adversliy effects your chances for survival, then ok. But if martial arts are for the protection of ones self, family, and country fitness should naturally be seen as an integral part of the equation.

Training a 30 year old body to move like an 80 year old body is insane.If an 80 year old had a choice, do you think he would choose to have his body, or the body of a 30 year old?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 2, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Training a 30 year old body to move like an 80 year old body is insane.If an 80 year old had a choice, do you think he would choose to have his body, or the body of a 30 year old?


 
WHICH 80 year old? Let's not forget we have old Japanese men within the Bujinkan who not only can bend their knees, but perform handsprings and kick people under the chin from a kumiuchi hold...


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## Don Roley (Mar 2, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> For me its a real disappointment to see Bujinkan members which disparage physical conditioning, or claim that it is unimportant.



Well, you know it is a strange thing but when a guy old enough to wear dentures and only comes up to your shoulder ties you up into various knots without breathing hard, you tend to get the bizzarre notion that strength and muscle mass really isn't needed to master Bujinkan stuff.

I have a waist line slimmer than most people my age I work with and keep my self in good condition. But I don't think that I need to have muscles to get good at taijutsu. In fact, I have seen people let muscles get in the way of their development.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 2, 2006)

You wont realize the importance of physical conditioning until you realize that you dont have it. Which by Murphy's Law will be at the least opportune time.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 2, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Physical strengthening can help everyone, even a desk jockey or computer programmer. Core muscle stabalization exercises at a minimum could drastically increase your quality of life. Cardiac endurance can increase your quality of life, and the length of your life.


 
Good point.  Poor conditioning can lead to all kinds of thinks like poor posture and back troubles.  Drastic weight gain can lead to heart troubles and diabetes.  A reasonable level of conditioning would benefit anyone, whether or not connnected to martial arts.

People don't have to be built like Superman, but a basic level of strength and conditioning should be seen as important no matter what.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 2, 2006)

> I have a waist line slimmer than most people my age I work with and keep my self in good condition. But I don't think that I need to have muscles to get good at taijutsu. In fact, I have seen people let muscles get in the way of their development.


 
This is the common argument against conditioning. I dont believe anyone here has advocated building muscle mass. Lets be reasonable. No one is talking about becoming a competitive bodybuilder. I had advocated strengthening core stabalizers. This produces correct spinal and pelvic alignment. This helps all movement become more efficient, and takes unnecessary stresses off of the joints. How does this get in the way of Bujinkan training? 
Bulding muscle endurance and power will not limit your ability to do the kihon happo either. It will increase your tolerance for long practice sessions at the very least.

And again, martial arts are not practiced in a vacuum. Strength and overall fitness helps us live better lives, beyond the martial arts.
Oh, and the ladies prefer a healthy, fit man over a young man who moves like hes 80.


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## Kreth (Mar 2, 2006)

At the opposite end of the spectrum, you have those who think that you need to have a physique worthy of Muscle and Fitness to be an effective martial artist. I call this flat out ********* Edited to conform to MT's Profanity rules, as a self-confessed fat bastard who left many a wannabe badass wondering how that old out of shape dude tossed them out of the bar.


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## Don Roley (Mar 3, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> This is the common argument against conditioning. I dont believe anyone here has advocated building muscle mass. Lets be reasonable. No one is talking about becoming a competitive bodybuilder.



I kind of find this hard to integrate with your later statement,



> And again, martial arts are not practiced in a vacuum. Strength and overall fitness helps us live better lives, beyond the martial arts.
> Oh, and the ladies prefer a healthy, fit man over a young man who moves like hes 80.



If you are not talking about muscle mass or looking like a bodybuilder, how do you define strength or the aspect that women will find attractive?

And FYI, I moved beyond trying to impress the ladies a long time ago. I keep myself fit to keep my wife happy- but I am not looking to impress others as you suggest.



> I had advocated strengthening core stabalizers. This produces correct spinal and pelvic alignment. This helps all movement become more efficient, and takes unnecessary stresses off of the joints. How does this get in the way of Bujinkan training?



Is strength training the only way? Is proper taijutsu perhaps a better and more applicable method? I have found Feldenkrais to be a great help to my ways of moving and improving my spinal and pelvic alignment. On the other hand, I have seen with my own eyes people who have muscle take the easy route and use their muscles to deal with a situation instead of using proper taijutsu.

Did I mention that Hatsumi has advised us to keep a good diet and do things like long walks? Or that I have personally been told by more than one senior Japanese that I should stand and practice in deep stances in order to get better at my taijutsu? Not exactly the type of thing that will attract the fems, but at my age I am just happy if they don't run in terror.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you are not talking about muscle mass or looking like a bodybuilder, how do you define strength or the aspect that women will find attractive?


 
There's not necessarily a correlation between having a six-pack and looking like a Belgian Blue...


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## Seattletcj (Mar 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I kind of find this hard to integrate with your later statement,
> 
> If you are not talking about muscle mass or looking like a bodybuilder, how do you define strength or the aspect that women will find attractive?
> 
> And FYI, I moved beyond trying to impress the ladies a long time ago. I keep myself fit to keep my wife happy- but I am not looking to impress others as you suggest.


 
I dont see how my statments conflict at all. Having strength does not necessairly mean that you have big bicepts and a big chest and shoulders.
This is going off topic a bit, but it is very easy to tell if someone has good muscle tone and if someone does not. You dont have to be a bodybuilder to have good muscle tone/ definition. Women do notice this kind of thing. Men do to. It is natural to be drawn towards an individual who is strong and has good tone. It means they are healthy and can produce strong children. This is just biology.




> Is strength training the only way? Is proper taijutsu perhaps a better and more applicable method? I have found Feldenkrais to be a great help to my ways of moving and improving my spinal and pelvic alignment. On the other hand, I have seen with my own eyes people who have muscle take the easy route and use their muscles to deal with a situation instead of using proper taijutsu.


 
Strength training is the best way, especially when combined with something like taijutsu. This is scientific fact. Any professional dancer, gymnast, physical therapists, or doctor will tell you this.
There is a difference between being mindful of your physiologic alignment and correcting it, and having muscle strength to maintain correct alignment. You need both. Feldenkrais is a wonderful method...but you need strength in your core to have true stabalization. The muscles I am talking about strengthening will not impead taijutsu in any way. Strong spinal extensors and stabalizors, and deep abdominal muscles will not create obstacles that will hinder technique.

Also,There is a difference between muscle strength and muscle bulk. You dont need bulk in order to have strength. Bulk is a product of a specific training routine which is designed to create bulk.



> Did I mention that Hatsumi has advised us to keep a good diet and do things like long walks? Or that I have personally been told by more than one senior Japanese that I should stand and practice in deep stances in order to get better at my taijutsu? Not exactly the type of thing that will attract the fems, but at my age I am just happy if they don't run in terror.


 
Good diet is paramount and is great advice, obviously. Long walks are good for maintaining your current level of fitness, but will not help you get more fit unless you are constantly increasing the length of the walk or increasing the difficulty of the walk. I'm sure the Shihan are knowledgable in the area of fitness, but I dont think they should be seen as the final authority on it.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 3, 2006)

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=176



> FA: Many martial artists fear that strength training will have a detrimental effect on their martial abilities, for example, decreased flexibility and/or loss of speed. Could you address these concerns?
> 
> Staley: *Well, the irony is that, in all other athletic disciplines, strength training is universally used to enhance all of these attributes, yet, in the martial arts, people are afraid that strength training will impair their abilities.* Of course, like anything else, strength training is a tool: use it properly, good results; improperly, bad results. If I try to turn a screw with a hammer, I'm going to end up hating hammers, when the fault resides within myself, not in the tool itself. As it turns out, most athletes use strength training improperly, and this fact enables my career as a conditioning specialist.
> 
> ...


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## rutherford (Mar 3, 2006)

:soapbox: 

Everybody's got their box.  Nobody bothers to read anybody else's post.  Much has nothing to do with taijutsu.  

Personally, fitness is extremely important to me.  It may hurt my development of taijutsu, but I doubt it.  I'm unlikely to ever get that strong, as I have a pretty small frame.


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## Don Roley (Mar 3, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Strength training is the best way, especially when combined with something like taijutsu. This is scientific fact. Any professional dancer, gymnast, physical therapists, or doctor will tell you this.



I note that one group you don't mention is Japanese shihan.

Did you notice what I wrote about Hatsumi's illness in post #19? how about Nagato's experience in #31?

Given a person from outside the Bujinkan stating things as scientific fact, and the examples of people who have been doing this art since before most of us were born, who do you think I am going to listen to?

The best way to condition the muscless that you use in taijutsu is to _do taijutsu!_ Do it in deep stances, do it slow- like ballet dancers and do it correctly.

There are different types of muscles and doing pushups may be good for one art with it's emphisis, and be wrong for another art that deals with things in another. That is just common sense. So why do people with little if any experience with taijutsu (especially in comparison with the Japanese) not take that into account when they tell us how we should be training?


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## Seattletcj (Mar 3, 2006)

Don,

With all due respect I think that before you get this deep into a conversation that is this specific, you should at least know what you are talking about. Especially when there are some people on these kinds of boards that may mistakenly see you as an authority on such matters.



> Given a person from outside the Bujinkan stating things as scientific fact, and the examples of people who have been doing this art since before most of us were born, who do you think I am going to listen to?


 
I'm not sure why you assume that I'm outside the Bujinkan....because I disagree with you??? I'm not stating things as scientific fact...I am stating scientific fact. Just because you havent heard it before, or havent been told it by someone Japanese does not mean its not true.




> I note that one group you don't mention is Japanese shihan.


 
Because I cant speak for them. I'm not going to pretend to know what any one of them would say. I highly doubt they would have negative things to say about strengthening the lower spine though. And, I am honestly reluctant to believe that you have the authority to speak for them on the details of this very specific conversation.

The fact that Soke Hatsumi's illness helped him evolve as a martial artist by forcing him to cultivate better timing and distance etc, is true. I dont disagree that this happened. I think that you are missing the point though.



> The best way to condition the muscless that you use in taijutsu is to _do taijutsu!_ Do it in deep stances, do it slow- like ballet dancers and do it correctly.


 
The best way? Its a good way, but I think you are really stretching it by saying "the best way."



> There are different types of muscles and doing pushups may be good for one art with it's emphisis, and be wrong for another art that deals with things in another. That is just common sense. So why do people with little if any experience with taijutsu (especially in comparison with the Japanese) not take that into account when they tell us how we should be training?


 
I'm not telling you how you should be training. This is a conversation on fitness. I'm not sure why you are so defensive and passionate about your position here, which is honestly fairly weak.
And I dont care if someone is Japanese, Korean, or French, if they have good scientific evidence based practice to share I am open to it. The human body has the same muscle and bone structure from Africa to Ireland...it is not something exclusive to Japan.


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2006)

(In regards to the Japanese shihan)



			
				Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Because I cant speak for them.



Then why don't you talk to them as I have?

What scientific study has been done on taijutsu practice and muscle building? You say it is a scientific fact, where is the study using taijutsu folks as subjects.



> The fact that Soke Hatsumi's illness helped him evolve as a martial artist by forcing him to cultivate better timing and distance etc, is true. I dont disagree that this happened. I think that you are missing the point though.



I think you are the one that missed the point. Hatsumi got better because of his illness due to the fact that he could not muscle something anymore. Timing and distancing are a part, but I just heard something to the effect that if you do a throw and it is not as easy as a solo rendition, then you are doing something wrong. Affecting the balance, angles, etc all have to be down to a great amount. And when you have strength, you tend to use it. I know from my own experiences that it is not quite that way at my level, but some of the older guys seem to have it down.

If you are so certain about this fact, why have you not spoken with Hatsumi about it? He is quite open minded and willing to adopt new things if they pan out. Why has no one has seemed to convince him so far?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you are so certain about this fact, why have you not spoken with Hatsumi about it? He is quite open minded and willing to adopt new things if they pan out. Why has no one has seemed to convince him so far?


 
With the things he can do at his age, I don't see why anyone would want to tell him to start training in a specific way...

Anyway, Takamatsu sensei writes in his autobiography that you need three things to be a good budoka - a good physical condition, technical skill, and spiritual strength (and yes, he does write these things in that order).


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Takamatsu sensei writes in his autobiography that you need three things to be a good budoka - a good physical condition, technical skill, and spiritual strength



That may be true (I am not sure what source you are using) but defiine the condition he is reffereing to. Is he talking about being able to walk a great distance as the old ninja did? Seriously, any of the photos I see of him when he met Hatsumi strike me as being an adonis. He could walk and do things for long periods of time- but I don't think he could do many push ups based on what I have seen.

Honestly, if in the years I have been here, if I had ever heard something from the Japanese shihan or Hatsumi that doing pushups would improve taijutsu, I would be letting you know.That is not the case. In fact, the story of Hatsumi and Nagato's experiences points in the exact opposite direction.

If these guys, who got better training that most of us can say, still found that they were using strength as a crutch without knowing it, what kind of traps can we fall into?


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## Cryozombie (Mar 4, 2006)

I think... maybe there is a difference of opinion on what is defined as "good physical condition"

Someone may think it means being able to crank off 100 Pushups, 200 Situps, and bench 1 1/2 times your bodyweight.  Somone else may think it means being able to go about your daily routine without the need for medication, a walker, or having a heart attack from the effort of lifting the beer bottle from the table to your mouth...

Perhaps we need a common definition of what good physical condition is.​


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## Seattletcj (Mar 4, 2006)

Don, 

It is clear you lack knowledge in this subject. Thats ok. Its a science that takes real time, and effort to understand. But speaking with authority on something like this in an open forum, where you are basically claiming to represent the bujinkan and its leadership can be potentially damaging in many ways. I hope that someday you will research what we are talking about, so you can have a more informed opinion on the subject.

If the Japanese shihan said something or not, is not the point of the conversation. I think we can all agree that they are not all knowing, all seeing gods. Do they have medical backgrounds? Backgrounds in exercise training, exercise science, or athletic conditioning? Maybe. I have no idea. But instead of imagining what one of them would say...or pretending to know what kind of conditioning Takamatsu did during his lifetime by looking at pictures of him in his 70's, can we stick to facts about conditioning and the human body? Un-verifiable conversations one gaijin that I dont know anything about had with shihan x, is not in my mind the final word on fitness training. Its nothing personal.

We have already established that we are NOT talking about building muscle mass, or bulk.

We are not talking about just doing push ups. There is a whole universe of conditioning and training that you are apparently un aware of.

I'm assuming the definition most would use as "good physical condition" would be much more then being able to tap away at a keyboard and lift a beer to your mouth. Especially when we are talking about something very physical like the martial arts. 

Strength/endurance training/conditioning is difficult and time consuming, which is the only reason you will hear people making excuses about not doing it...or it being un-necessary. How can I surf the internet and eat nachos if I'm at the gym?

For a great conversation on this topic of fitness and budo taijutsu, check out this thread on Kutaki no mura.

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2581&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Don,
> 
> It is clear you lack knowledge in this subject. Thats ok. Its a science that takes real time, and effort to understand. But speaking with authority on something like this in an open forum, where you are basically claiming to represent the bujinkan and its leadership can be potentially damaging in many ways. I hope that someday you will research what we are talking about, so you can have a more informed opinion on the subject.



Boy, that is rude! Maybe you might want to calm down for a second instead of insulting folks and talking about how they want to eat nachos instead of going to the gym, etc. Go ahead and edit if you can.

If Hatsumi ever says anything about conditioning, I will be sure to let people know. If anyone thinks that there should be a form of conditioning done inside the Bujinkan, they should take it up with him. The only forms I can tell you that I know have been discussed with me are doing the forms in low stances, walking, etc. 

I know Hatsumi is not closed- minded and is willing to accept new things to the Bujinkan. I also know he did a lot of physical stuff during his days in judo. Perhaps people should be talking to him about why he is not pushing for conditioning with all his past experience in it.

In my experiences, the definition of good condition that I would use for the Bujinkan is that you don't have fear of a heart attack or other health problems.


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## Kreth (Mar 4, 2006)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth
-MT Moderator-


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 4, 2006)

Is the way to be a better football player just playing football? If thats the case, the professional athletes have been wasting a lot of time in the gym. I cant believe we are debating whether its good or bad to be stronger, faster, and more cardiovascularly fit than an opponent. It may not be the ultimate deciding factor but it can be and woe to you if your opponent and you are technically matched but hes in better shape.


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2006)

Taijutsu is not football.

In fact, looking like a football linebacker would have attracted a bit more attention than they wanted when trying to pass into enemy lands.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 4, 2006)

Kreth/Don,

I dont believe what I said was rude, but if it was I apalogize. I will not edit one word of it though, and I cant believe you proposed the idea. 

I think it should be expected that someone be called out when they give out incorrect information. This time it happens to be you that needed correcting. It may be rare that you are challenged here, but that does not make it a wrong thing to do.



> If anyone thinks that there should be a form of conditioning done inside the Bujinkan, they should take it up with him.......
> 
> I know Hatsumi is not closed- minded and is willing to accept new things to the Bujinkan. I also know he did a lot of physical stuff during his days in judo. Perhaps people should be talking to him about why he is not pushing for conditioning with all his past experience in it.


 

I dont remember mentioning that anything should be added to the Bujinkan system, or that Hatsumi should push for conditioning. Did I miss something? 



> In my experiences, the definition of good condition that I would use for the Bujinkan is that you don't have fear of a heart attack or other health problems.


 
Thats a good definition. How do you go about avoiding a heart attack/ heart problems? What do you consider "other health problems" ? Because that is a very broad statement.

I had mentioned specifically strengthening the spine, which reduces the risk of many health problems. As would strengthening the legs, and the back. So you agree it is worthwhile?


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## Seattletcj (Mar 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Taijutsu is not football.
> 
> In fact, looking like a football linebacker would have attracted a bit more attention than they wanted when trying to pass into enemy lands.


 
Don, I think you missed his/her point. It had nothing to do with ninjas bulking up to play football 

:cheers:


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> I think it should be expected that someone be called out when they give out incorrect information. This time it happens to be you that needed correcting. It may be rare that you are challenged here, but that does not make it a wrong thing to do.



Exactly what needed correcting? Did I misquote Hatsumi or something? Was there a scientific test done with Bujinkan members? Is taijutsu really football?


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## Seattletcj (Mar 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Exactly what needed correcting? Did I misquote Hatsumi or something? Was there a scientific test done with Bujinkan members? Is taijutsu really football?


 
That it is not worthwhile strengthening and conditioning the body (beyond walking and standing in deep kamae etc).


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> That it is not worthwhile strengthening and conditioning the body (beyond walking and standing in deep kamae etc).



That is your *opinion.*

The Japanese like Hatsumi seem to have a different opinion based on what we have seen. They have greater experience in the matter of taijutsu and are visible examples of the argument. The stories of Hatsumi's illenss seem to point towards a completely different conclusion. But you are dealing with your _opinion_ that someone should do more than what the Japanese have laid out. Not a true or false situation.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 4, 2006)

I probably shouldnt reply anymore, but I cant resist.
What exactly are you saying is my opinion? 

Strengthening the spine, hips, knees, and back will assist in maintaining correct posture. When combined with a proprioceptive method such as taijutsu, taichi, feldenkrais, yoga etc the results are even better because the system forces you to be mindfull of your alignment during movement. This helps keep your muscles working at their ideal length, in their ideal positions, and limits stretching or deviating in the wrong directions during functional activities. 
Using a proprioceptive method alone is not ideal because the muscles are not physically strong enough to maintain the ideal positions that you want them in for extended periods. This usually results in compensation somewhere, which means a domino effect of misalignment throughout the body(sometimes subtle). They need strengthing which means contraction . This is scientific fact. 


Standing in a low kamae does not strengthen a muscle throughout its full range of motion. This method does not take advantage of the different ways a muscle contracts either (concentric,eccentric etc). It is a good stabalizing exercise for certain muscles and will get you to a certain level of strength. As muscle fatigue sets in though compensation such as hanging on ligaments and the use of incorrect muscle groups can occur, and may be hard to notice. Generally, muscle endurance is gained through progressively increasing repetitions of contractions, and strength through progressively increasing amounts of resistance.

This is scientific fact.

Walking is good for joints and circulation and helps maintain current levels of  fitness, but cannot increase fitness, unless the length of the walk and/or the difficulty of the walk is constantly increased.
In order to increase cardiac endurance you must be brought to your target heart rate and maintain for a minimum of 20 minutes. To increase from there means increasing resistance and/or time.

This is scientific fact.


If you cant see how any of this relates to Bujinkan budo taijutsu then I dont know what else to say.

Again, I recommend that conversation that i linked to earlier on Kutaki. Rob Renner and Garth Lynch made some good points that are worth reading.


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Standing in a low kamae does not strengthen a muscle throughout its full range of motion.



I think that at some point in this I was talking about practicing in low kamae and not just standing.

As for the rest of the "facts" you lay out, do they really pertain to the idea of getting better at taijutsu? 

You see, instead of taking time to condition myself at the gym, I think I would get better at taijutsu by _actually practicing taijutsu._

I kind of take offense at the assumption that you present that anyone who does not want to take time to go to the gym is some sort of slob who prefers to eat nachos, drink beer and type on the internet. The time I would be using to condition is better served practicing the actual movements in taijutsu and doing things like hitting targets, etc.

And you fail to deal with the idea laid out that strength can actually be a distraction and lure away from proper training. No one is saying that they advocate an unhealthy lifestyle. But people from Technopunk's level to Hatsumi have all stated that they have found that they have unconsciously relied on strength instead of proper taijutsu and was only made aware of that when that strength was not availible. So the idea that begginers should train at conditioning might cause them to use the strength they gain rather than do proper taijutsu.

No one is saying that they would prefer a bad body to a good one. If everything else was the same between me and the other guy, I would love to have the better body. The matter is one of is how to learn the art and whether an emphisis on conditioning might be counter productive to learning skills.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 5, 2006)

I understand your point Don, and your concerns are perfectly valid.
I think the benifits of having a strong (not buff) body greatly outweigh the *potential* negatives though. Who could really say if it would cause a problem for an individual? MAybe it would, maybe not. And if it did it could be corrected. Certainly strong spinal stabilizers, gluteus muscles(maximus,medius,minimus), leg adductors, and deep abdominal muscles *will not* interfere with technique!

Its should also be clear that a strong healthy body is not just for martial arts training, but for living better, longer lives. Can you hold on you your friends arm who has slipped off the edge of a rock face? Can you wear a heavy pack for prolonged periods of hiking? Can you run from someone with a knife? Does your back hurt? Does your neck hurt? Your knees? 

Muscle strength around joints are not just good for generating power but for protecting against damage. A strong structure protects cartilage and ligaments from un-necessary wear and tear. Strong muscles also assist blood returning back to the heart, against gravity. They ensure blood circulation due to correct alignment, which increases the healing process and reduces the chances for certain helath problems/disease. All of this will help you move better when you are 70.

Much of this was not as well known, or as widely known years ago. We are lucky to have the technology and knowledge that we do now .


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## Don Roley (Mar 5, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> I understand your point Don, and your concerns are perfectly valid.
> I think the benifits of having a strong (not buff) body greatly outweigh the *potential* negatives though. Who could really say if it would cause a problem for an individual?



Well, I look at the fact that it happened to Hatsumi and tend to think that it could happen to me very easily.

I would rather have a good body than a bad one. But I am in good enough of shape, especially for the lifestyle I live now. I no longer have to carry a rucksack 30 miles and then dig a defensive position.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 5, 2006)

The benefits of physical conditioning are so vast, universal and common sense I dont understand where this thread is going. Trying to "bull" your way through a fight instead of using technique is not a damnation of strength and its illogical to conclude that the soultion is to make yourself weaker.


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## Brother John (Mar 5, 2006)

It's very important that a martial artist be healthy and be in good enough athletic condition to be able to do whatever the tactics and moves of his art or of his preference says he should do. 
If your art requires you to be able to leap up high and do multiple kicks from time to time....then you'll need a bit more 'athletic condition' than most. Grapplers need to have good endurance and better muscular endurance.
People intent on going several rounds of any kind of fight need to be in really great shape...
etc.

The conditioning should match the intensity, duration, frequency and patterns needed for the type of martial arts activity you intend to do.
That's pretty much all, but it is important.

Your Brother
John


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## Cryozombie (Mar 6, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> People intent on going several rounds of any kind of fight need to be in really great shape...



The only thing I have to say about that is since we dont compete... if we are in a fight and it goes several rounds, we really ****ed up somewhere.


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## Brother John (Mar 6, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> The only thing I have to say about that is since we dont compete... if we are in a fight and it goes several rounds, we really ****ed up somewhere.


 
Very very true bro!

Thing is, I just saw this thread in the "New Posts" section and really didn't check to see that it was in the Ninjutsu section. 
I'd have to say, then, that in Ninjutsu... it'd be important to have your fitness up to the level that if you needed to run to excape a threat, and wanted to hide to evade....You'd not want your 'panting' to give you away...

There....hows that? 

But really, the gist of what I said still applies.... the fitness needs need to be formed depending on what you intend to do with them.

Your Brother
John


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 6, 2006)

I'm going to look hard to see if I can find the English translation of Takamatsu's autobiography somewhere, but in any case, one of the last things he writes in there is a commentary on people who claim to be able to channel energy with their breathing. He says that he's very happy for their sake if they're able to do that in order to endure several hours of prolonged combat.


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## DWeidman (Mar 6, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> The only thing I have to say about that is since we dont compete... if we are in a fight and it goes several rounds, we really ****ed up somewhere.


 
I normally stay out of these things, but this one is more than I can handle. 

As much as I want to agree with this, it assumes we are a MUCH better fighter than the other person.  Please, try to remember there are plenty of other people out there who can handle what you throw at them.

Also, try to remember that this is a combat art as well, and combat requires a heightened level of physical ability.  Unless you are riding horseback and learning to shoot a bow and arrow, then you need to be able to move around a bit...  and for LONGER than 5 mins...

As to the rest of it - why is strength and taijutsu ability always mutually exclusive?  Is it **impossible** to be strong and good at the same time?

Can anyone here come up with tactical and strategic reasons to support being weaker and slower?  Can anyone do the same for being stronger and faster?

The pro / con list for both is rather weighted... if you ask me...

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...



-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...


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## Flying Crane (Mar 6, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> I normally stay out of these things, but this one is more than I can handle.
> 
> As much as I want to agree with this, it assumes we are a MUCH better fighter than the other person. Please, try to remember there are plenty of other people out there who can handle what you throw at them.
> 
> ...


 
I would say you are both right.

Strength, speed and conditioning are definitely assets.  But at the same time, good technique and skill can enable you to be successful without having to rely on strength as much as one with poor technique.  It can even allow a physically weaker individual to be successful against a physically stronger individual.

But I don't think one could or would claim that being weaker, slower, and/or less well conditioned is something to strive for.  While these assets are definitely important, good technique just makes them somewhat less crucial.

That being said, I think Technopunk is right, not just with the Bujinkan arts, but for any art, that if the fight lasts a long time then something went pretty wrong.  On the street, I think the fight is either over quickly with one party the victor, or someone finds an exit fairly quickly and clears out in a hurry.  One way or the other it ends without becoming a long, drawn out slug fest.  Now, just how long "A LONG TIME" is, I suspect is something that people have different opinions on.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 6, 2006)

The thing is, that kind of assumes that you HAVE to be and always will be superior to an opponent in technique and that you will either HAVE to win in the first few seconds or you are going to loose. If thats the case then isnt it the same thing for the other guy? Make it last longer than a few seconds for him and he looses right? What if the **** hits the fan and things dont go your way? Being able to outlast the other guy may be your means to victory. Get in the best shape you can under the circumstances you are given I say. No excuses.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 6, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> The thing is, that kind of assumes that you HAVE to be and always will be superior to an opponent in technique and that you will either HAVE to win in the first few seconds or you are going to loose. If thats the case then isnt it the same thing for the other guy? Make it last longer than a few seconds for him and he looses right? What if the **** hits the fan and things dont go your way? Being able to outlast the other guy may be your means to victory. Get in the best shape you can under the circumstances you are given I say. No excuses.


 
Of course.  My only point is that good conditioning and/or good technique does not guarantee victory, and neither does a lack of good conditioning or good technique guarantee defeat.  Both are important and both add to your chances of winning/escaping.  All other things being equal, I think conditioning is important and my advice is that physical fitness should be part of anyone's training.


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## Monadnock (Mar 6, 2006)

Wouldn't we need some strength and endurance if we encountered more than one person? Or one person that isn't easily disposed of?

A lot of people would rather go to the gym to focus on buffing up and leave the combat lesssons for the dojo. I think a vigorous class workout can still aide development of these qualities. At least so the "shock" of getting hit in the face isn't such a big surprise out on the street.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 6, 2006)

> Of course. My only point is that good conditioning and/or good technique does not guarantee victory, and neither does a lack of good conditioning or good technique guarantee defeat. Both are important and both add to your chances of winning/escaping. All other things being equal, I think conditioning is important and my advice is that physical fitness should be part of anyone's training.




I agree with that 110%


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## Cryozombie (Mar 6, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> As much as I want to agree with this, it assumes we are a MUCH better fighter than the other person. Please, try to remember there are plenty of other people out there who can handle what you throw at them...
> 
> you need to be able to move around a bit... and for LONGER than 5 mins...
> 
> ...


 
Daniel, I dont disagree with you, however my statement goes back to the idea of "going several rounds"... A "pro" fight round is (I believe) 3 or 5  minutes long, and I define "several" as more than 2.  If I encounter a "skilled" fighter that I can match technique for technique for  9 - 15 minutes or longer... I need to either break and flee, or do SOMTHING to end the fight, because IMO thats a ******** thing to try and do on the street...

Understand, I am NOT against conditioning, I personally have been doing a LOT to change my physical makeup these past couple months...

However, I am also AGAINST the idea of using strength to "cheat" taijutsu, which is why I posted that we need to define good physical condition.  I dont wanna look like arnold, but I certainly dont want to have a heart attack when the adrenaline hits durring a fight...


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## DWeidman (Mar 7, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Daniel, I dont disagree with you, however my statement goes back to the idea of "going several rounds"... A "pro" fight round is (I believe) 3 or 5 minutes long, and I define "several" as more than 2. If I encounter a "skilled" fighter that I can match technique for technique for 9 - 15 minutes or longer... I need to either break and flee, or do SOMTHING to end the fight, because IMO thats a ******** thing to try and do on the street...


 
Ah.... Ok.  Agreed - 100%.  The caveat to this is multiple attackers, neh?

Honestly, most people who train in this art assume decisive victory within 30 seconds.  Because that is how they train - attacker throws a punch, defenders puts him in the budo-blender for maybe 15 seconds and,  'viola!  Instant decisive victory.




			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> However, I am also AGAINST the idea of using strength to "cheat" taijutsu, which is why I posted that we need to define good physical condition. I dont wanna look like arnold, but I certainly dont want to have a heart attack when the adrenaline hits durring a fight...


 
Please understand something - I am **completely** committed to learning things the right way...  That means no more strength than is necessary (and, by the way, some strength *is* necessary).

Why does everyone who assumes you are in the gym working out is trying to look like Arnold - or trying to Bulk up like the Hulk?

I think we all know that unusable muscle mass isn't the ticket to victory in every confrontation.  This is especially true if you are using weapons / force multipliers.

However, being able to hold your hands up after 2 mins of serious fighting is a handy thing to do.

Why does everyone point to the "ninja" aspects of the art when we talk about muscle and endurance?  Last time I checked, we spent more time training in the non-ninjutsu schools (which outnumber the ninja schools 2 to 1 within the Bujinkan) - and probably hold a ratio above 100:1 as far as training time spent on them - when this topic comes up.

Do you walk into battle out of shape?  Anyone?  Who thinks the armed forces of the world, yesterday and today, sat around discussing whether or not getting into shape would "decrease" their skill?  Do you think the warriors of the past (the ones that we have heard stories about) didn't use whatever tools they had to get into the best shape they could?  Be glad you are born today, where we have great information on how to hone the human body...

This "I don't work out because I am afraid I will look like a 30 yr old instead of an 80 yr old" is a conversation for the "blessed" - those who aren't about to walk out into battle and face 5000+ other people hoping to put a hole in them.  

Ask Sensei how he was training when he was 30.  Read about how Takamatsu was training when he was 30.  Etc Etc Etc.

Unless you are always planning on poisoning people... then don't worry about it.  Oh... and buy a gun.  Then stop going to class too... 

Really people.  It is VERY few who are at the elite status where they **GET** to say something like "I think my strength is inhibiting my growth in this art".  If you aren't aware if you are using strength, then you have more to worry about then better subtle technique...

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy.

PS.  I never start these threads.  If you want to be lazy or out of shape, I have NO problem with it.  Honestly.  The likelihood of needing to go several rounds is LOW unless you are in a high-risk category...  I don't teach physical shape drills in my class because it is a choice you need to make as an adult, if you want to be in shape or not.  It is your choice...  I do, however, get miffed when I hear people talking about the "dangers" of being in good physical condition.  And Nagato is still plenty strong right now... do you think he would be a lot better if he dropped another 50 lbs?

As to weight training... you are an idiot if you don't think you can use weight training to your advantage.  Let me repeat, "IDIOT".  Are there dangers associated with over-doing a weight routine?  Of course - just like everything else...  And I don't need to talk to someone in Japan to know that.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 7, 2006)

I find deadlifting, done right, is one of the simplest, most "bang for the buck" exercises there is for combat strength development. Not that it should be the only lift you do, but IMO should be one of the core exercises. Find a qualified instructor to show you the proper form and you wont be disappointed. That and add in some sort of cardio training and you are on your way.


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## rutherford (Mar 7, 2006)

And why do people think about taijutsu as an activity that won't lead you to be strong and healthy?

You could certainly have a complete excercise routine consisting of things found within Taijutsu.  And, before you think it'll be cake remember that flips on your fingertips and running silently and endless pushups and hours striking makiwari and days in full armor swinging a huge club is all taijutsu.

And, I take back what I said about not being too strong for it to impact my taijutsu.  I've thought about it a bit, and I know I'm already way too strong.  We all are.

Personally, I still plan to grow stronger.  And I think that we should all do what we love, what excites us, and what we think will push us to be better.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 7, 2006)

Sure, Taijutsu is exercise. But like my Football comment, Football itself is exercise too. Running, throwing, pushing and tackling other people. But if you want to be a better football player you need to be running and hitting the weights.


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## DWeidman (Mar 7, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> And why do people think about taijutsu as an activity that won't lead you to be strong and healthy?


 
Not me.  They aren't mutually exclusive.



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> And, I take back what I said about not being too strong for it to impact my taijutsu. I've thought about it a bit, and I know I'm already way too strong. We all are.


 
Bleh.  Taijutsu requires strength.  Period.  The difference between the elite and the rest of us is not needing it.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...


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## rutherford (Mar 7, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Sure, Taijutsu is exercise. But like my Football comment, Football itself is exercise too. Running, throwing, pushing and tackling other people. But if you want to be a better football player you need to be running and hitting the weights.


 
But the point of the thread isn't to play football.

You seem to be ignoring that essential fact.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 7, 2006)

Its a comparison between any type of "combat" literal or figurative (football is nothing more than a stylized combat metaphor) and physical conditioning.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 7, 2006)

This is the martial artists version of the "ill just buy a gun" argument. "I dont need to exercise I just need better technique". It can kill you.


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## Don Roley (Mar 7, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> If you want to be lazy or out of shape, I have NO problem with it.



You know, the idea that if we don't go down to the gym we are lazy and out of shape is just so wrong and rude. I am not out of shape and I do a lot of training. I just don't do it as you would want.



> Ask Sensei how he was training when he was 30. Read about how Takamatsu was training when he was 30. Etc Etc Etc



Oh that has been mentioned. Both of them did things at that age that they regretted later on in life. Hence we do not do those things. Hatsumi does not make us do pushups or toughen up our hands.

Again, why don't those of you that think there should be conditioning in the Bujinkan take the issue up with the Japanese in Japan? Because if they thought we needed to go down to the gym as you say, why are they not mentioning it in class and in their writings?


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## rutherford (Mar 7, 2006)

Blotan Hunka, you're the only person saying "I don't need to exercise."  

It's a strawman arguement, and combat with strawmen isn't something I enjoy.

I'd rather get some exercise.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 7, 2006)

Mon Mon said:
			
		

> How important is it for a martial artist to be in shape? Just Curious.



This was the initial post on this thread, is it now about "What is taught in Japan"?


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## Cryozombie (Mar 7, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> This is the martial artists version of the "ill just buy a gun" argument.


 
Not speaking for anyone else, but for myself...I disagree... I DO belive there needs to be a middle ground.  Enough fitness to DO the techniques for the durration of the fight... enough strength to stay on your feet, enough "endurance" that you don't fall over wheezing durring the fight/encounter... But you dont need to be a physical fitness guru to pull it off like some other arts where jump-spinning-back kicks require the extra strength to lift your bodyweight, spin and land properly, repeatedly, round after round in a ring.

I also believe that as your technique gets better and better, you will need less and less... thats WHY this art works so well for the old folk who do it... or guys with bad knees, or artificial hips like Papasan... BUT you gotta get there and that takes years.

Personally, I wouldnt mind being in better shape, for personal reasons unrelated to my Taijutsu... so I am doing somthing about it.  But do I think its NECCESSARY, or am I in good enough shape to do it (taijutsu) now... *shrug*


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## rutherford (Mar 7, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> This was the initial post on this thread, is it now about "What is taught in Japan"?


 
This is a Japanese Martial Art.

That question is part of every thread.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 7, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Its a comparison between any type of "combat" literal or figurative (football is nothing more than a stylized combat metaphor) and physical conditioning.


Blotan,

Do you train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?  If so, how do you draw a comparison between football and our training?  When in fact, the principles between the two are very different.  One using the principle of crashing through the wall to get to the other side, and the other having enough sense to use the door to get to the other side.

I can see how you might draw a slight comparison between football and combat (but that is a matter for another thread).

I workout because it is good for my health.  It makes me healthier.  If it helps my training (which it does in many areas) then that is a bonus.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 7, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Not speaking for anyone else, but for myself...I disagree... I DO belive there needs to be a middle ground. Enough fitness to DO the techniques for the durration of the fight... enough strength to stay on your feet, enough "endurance" that you don't fall over wheezing durring the fight/encounter... But you dont need to be a physical fitness guru to pull it off like some other arts where jump-spinning-back kicks require the extra strength to lift your bodyweight, spin and land properly, repeatedly, round after round in a ring.
> 
> I also believe that as your technique gets better and better, you will need less and less... thats WHY this art works so well for the old folk who do it... or guys with bad knees, or artificial hips like Papasan... BUT you gotta get there and that takes years.
> 
> Personally, I wouldnt mind being in better shape, for personal reasons unrelated to my Taijutsu... so I am doing somthing about it. But do I think its NECCESSARY, or am I in good enough shape to do it (taijutsu) now... *shrug*



That all sounds completely logical, and I agree. But there is always the potential for a real fight to turn into a brawl where you WILL need to depend on your strength/conditioning. Its all relative though. I agree.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 7, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I also believe that as your technique gets better and better, you will need less and less... thats WHY this art works so well for the old folk who do it... or guys with bad knees, or artificial hips like Papasan... BUT you gotta get there and that takes years.


 
It went straight to hell last monday. Those of you who want to know more may PM me.


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## DWeidman (Mar 7, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You know, the idea that if we don't go down to the gym we are lazy and out of shape is just so wrong and rude. I am not out of shape and I do a lot of training. I just don't do it as you would want.


 
Who is saying that???  Not me.  Please find where someone said if you aren't in the gym you are lazy and out of shape?

I believe I said, _"If you want to be lazy or out of shape, I have NO problem with it. Honestly."  _That has NOTHING to do with the gym - it only has to do with lazy and out of shape...

I don't care what you do.  I don't care if you walk up stairs - walk your dog - or train with the olympic track team.   

The gym has NOTHING to do with just being fit.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh that has been mentioned. Both of them did things at that age that they regretted later on in life. Hence we do not do those things. Hatsumi does not make us do pushups or toughen up our hands.


 
Bleh.  It was good enough for him.  It was good enough for his teacher... and good enough for thousands and thousands of martial artists before them.  I am not going to cut that part of the training out... I don't care who says to...



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Again, why don't those of you that think there should be conditioning in the Bujinkan take the issue up with the Japanese in Japan? Because if they thought we needed to go down to the gym as you say, why are they not mentioning it in class and in their writings?


 
Because I was given something to fill the space between my ears.  I don't need someone else to tell me what to do...  And I am not responsible for the Bujinkan.  Only myself and my students (and really -- it is only myself).  Has Sensei ever said, "if you go to the gym to get stronger, you will be kicked out of the Bujinkan?"

Unless someone has a salient argument against it... I am going to continue keeping fit (which INCLUDES going to the gym and working out regularly).

I think the part here that annoys me the most is that most of the people who argue against "bulking up" aren't coming from a position of knowledge and experience.  When Nagato talks about slimming down - he was already ripped and strong before deciding he needed to work on the finer points.  He didn't say, _"I was never strong and fast, and that is on purpose because I *chose* to so my form would be better."  _That is what I hear most of the time, indirectly.  

When you have slammed your hands into makiwara for years - you can look back and say, "I don't need to do that".  It has a different feel for someone who has never hit anything hard in his life to say, "I don't hit things hard because Takamatsu said it wasn't important".  

Forest for the trees...  Forest for the trees.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...


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## Brother John (Mar 7, 2006)

Is there anything published or put out by the Hombu Dojo concerning general fitness levels?

Your Brother
John


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## Seattletcj (Mar 7, 2006)

After 8 pages I would hope that people get the message that strength training does not mean getting physically bulky. If you want bulk you must train specifically for bulk. NO ONE is saying to strengthen like that.

Since the football analogy isnt working here, maybe the word football player can be replaced with...professional dancer.

I know a few professional dancers (no, not strippers) that are very aware that strength training is essential for their performance, and for protection against damage (ankle sprains, knees sprains, general back aches). They know that they can remain at the minimum fitness level required for dancing, but that they could never compete with the more conditioned dancers, and they know their bodies will pay for it in the long run. There would be an obvious difference in performance. These are very slim ladies I am talking about, and they understand why it is necessary. And no one would say that they are *muscling* through their dance routines. Now I guess you can say that...we dont need to be as strong as slim dancing ladies...but that wouldnt sound so good.

I guess there is a minimum level of fitness required for taijutsu....But who really wants to be at a minimum level of performance? Does a minimum level of fitness make you better at taijutsu ? Could a maximum or moderate level of fitness make you better at taijutsu?

And I'm pretty sure Hatsumi wasnt talking about muscling through technique because of a strong "core", because that wouldnt make sense at all.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 7, 2006)

The problem with assuming that people will maintain a good enough fitness level (so as to avoid injuries during hard training, as I said before) on their own is the same as with communism - it doesn't work as long as people are people.


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## Don Roley (Mar 8, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Bleh.  It was good enough for him.  It was good enough for his teacher... and good enough for thousands and thousands of martial artists before them.  I am not going to cut that part of the training out... I don't care who says to...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have trouble with all of the above. Hatsumi and Takamatsu have problems due to certain things they did in the past and stopped advising others to do it and you still say it is good enough for you? Have you heard the story of Takagi Oriemon?

I don't care if Hatsumi has not forbidden it, if he does not advise it that is enough for me. The only things I hear in Japan is good diet, long walks (sometimes up mountains with friends) and getting your hips as low as possible while training. That is what they did in the past and still advise. I do not do the stuff they fooled with and dropped.

And when someone does something that they think was bad for them and passes that lesson onto me, I don't think I need to duplicate their actions to learn the lessons they have to teach me. The whole idea of having an art with a tradition is that you don't have to actually go into battle to learn what works and what does not.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 8, 2006)

I think that we have determined that there is a minimal level of fitness required for taijutsu, and each individual is free to stay at that minimal level, be at a place below that level, or move above that level. Everyone is free to be as lazy and sedentary, or as active and fit as they determine they want and/or need. Its not wrong to do minimal exercise, and live a minimally healthy life. The question is...is it better/more beneficial overall to move beyond the minimal levels? 
I believe that most people would say yes.

Don,

1 Can you see the benefits of being beyond minimum fitness levels for taijutsu?

2 Do you understand that strengthening certain aspects like the core will not inhibit, decrease, or adversely effect taijutsu and will not promote muscling through techniques? And that strengthening may actually positively effect posture for example.

3 Do you recognize that the Japanese Shihan might not know everything about fitness and conditioning, and that it may be benefical for you to do things beyond what you are directly told by them?

Being at absolute minimum fitness levels for effective dojo training is not necessairly the same as being effective in the outside world, unless you determine that  you will never face an opponent who is just as technically skilled (if not more so), just as smart (if not more so), and more fit then you are. Or that you will never face a challenge in your life that requires beyond minimal levels of strength and/or endurance.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 8, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Its not wrong to do minimal exercise, and live a minimally healthy life. The question is...is it better/more beneficial overall to move beyond the minimal levels?


 
THIS is the issue I have with the attitudes on that side of the argument.  Someone finally put it in a concise enough manner for me to see what I have been trying to say.

Minimal Excercise does NOT minimal health mean, or vice versa.

Who's healthier?  The guy who is carful about balancing his diet, eating healthy foods, and walking 2 miles a day as his only excercise, or the "Jock" lifting weights 5 days a week at the gym, then going to McDonalds for lunch, and Buffalo Wild Wings for beer and wings with his friends at night?

That statment I quoted screams the guy goin to the gym is in better shape cuz he works out harder... regarless of his diet.

There is a balance someplace, and thats what I think no one is willing to admit to.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 8, 2006)

http://yalenewhavenhealth.org/healthnews/HealthNewsFeature/hnf122203.htm


> Preventing Heart Disease: Exercise Is More Important than Diet
> 
> Exercise, not diet, may be your best defense against heart disease, according to a long-term federal study.
> 
> ...


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## Cryozombie (Mar 8, 2006)

Problem with that is the information varies from study to study and even doctor to doctor.

For example, My doctor says that a brisk 20 minute walk is the minimum adequate excercise for heart health, but a coworker here showed me a study just yesterday that says you only need 10 minutes of walking at a normal pace for those benefits.

So... 

Like I said... I have no problems with people who wanna work out, I do it myself... but, like Don, I am reading these comments to be "Anyone who doesnt spend 8 hours a day working out _in the gym_ is a fat nacho munching slob."


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## Don Roley (Mar 8, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> 1 Can you see the benefits of being beyond minimum fitness levels for taijutsu?
> 
> 2 Do you understand that strengthening certain aspects like the core will not inhibit, decrease, or adversely effect taijutsu and will not promote muscling through techniques? And that strengthening may actually positively effect posture for example.
> 
> 3 Do you recognize that the Japanese Shihan might not know everything about fitness and conditioning, and that it may be benefical for you to do things beyond what you are directly told by them?



1- Define minimum. I can walk up mt Tsukuba and leave my school kids panting but don't go to the gym.

2- Wrong question. The question should be, would _concentrating on conditioning_ harm or improve my taijutsu. In other words, after building up this kind of conditioning hammer, would all your taijutus problems start to look like nails? And in that case, there are plenty of examples that it is a valid worry.

3- I know that Hatsumi does not know as much as I about the history of Islam, American politics, how to strip an M-16 and certain technologies *but* to think that they are not aware of conditioning is crazy. They have done it. They tell us now to do things in low stances, walk, etc- not go to the gym.


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 8, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> So...
> 
> Like I said... I have no problems with people who wanna work out, I do it myself... but, like Don, I am reading these comments to be "Anyone who doesnt spend 8 hours a day working out _in the gym_ is a fat nacho munching slob."



Not at all sir. I dont think anybody said that gym time should be exceeding training time, only that physical fitness should be a must for anybody who fancies themselves a warrior. What I am hearing is "Hatsumi says never jog or lift a weight and you will be able to defeat any man in physical combat". So maybe its just crossed wires.

Some guys in the Booj seem to have differing opinions on this topic too...

http://greenman.dk/content/simple/bujinkan/warrior.html


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## Seattletcj (Mar 8, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> THIS is the issue I have with the attitudes on that side of the argument. Someone finally put it in a concise enough manner for me to see what I have been trying to say.
> 
> Minimal Excercise does NOT minimal health mean, or vice versa.
> 
> ...


 

Technopunk,

I agree with your statement. I think you are right on. When I said.... 

"Its not wrong to do minimal exercise, and live a minimally healthy life. The question is...is it better/more beneficial overall to move beyond the minimal levels? "

I did not mean to say that exercise = health. Although exercise (or lack of) does contribute to health, I meant to seperate exercise with healthy living/diet etc. Sorry if I was not clear.



> Like I said... I have no problems with people who wanna work out, I do it myself... but, like Don, I am reading these comments to be "Anyone who doesnt spend 8 hours a day working out in the gym is a fat nacho munching slob."



No one is saying that. I did say something to the effect of...strengthening and condition is hard work and takes time and effort, and that some people would rather eat nachos and surf the internet rather then workout. This is true for myself! I make all kinds of excuses  not to go to the gym sometimes. I'm too tired, my shoulder hurts, its too late, I'm hungry, I want to surf the internet etc etc. Its *MUCH* easier to not condition, then it is to actually do it.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 8, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> 1- Define minimum. I can walk up mt Tsukuba and leave my school kids panting but don't go to the gym.


 
Just enough to participate in typical dojo training and potentially be good at it. Basically being able to stand upright, and move your legs.



> 2- Wrong question. The question should be, would _concentrating on conditioning_ harm or improve my taijutsu. In other words, after building up this kind of conditioning hammer, would all your taijutus problems start to look like nails? And in that case, there are plenty of examples that it is a valid worry.


 
Its not the wrong question. Its the question I intended to ask. Can you anwser it?



> 3- I know that Hatsumi does not know as much as I about the history of Islam, American politics, how to strip an M-16 and certain technologies *but* to think that they are not aware of conditioning is crazy. They have done it. They tell us now to do things in low stances, walk, etc- not go to the gym.


 
I dont doubt that they know a fair share about it, but it really is an evolving science which is constantly being revised and updated. Are they current with all of the new scientific studies and practices? Honestly, I dont expect them to be. I think it's up to individual instructors and practitioners to be responsible enough to understand that its important and educate themselves.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 8, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Some guys in the Booj seem to have differing opinions on this topic too...
> 
> http://greenman.dk/content/simple/bujinkan/warrior.html


 
From my experience with people from the country in question, I can't say I'm surprised that he's a tad disillusioned.


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## Don Roley (Mar 9, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> I dont doubt that they know a fair share about it, but it really is an evolving science which is constantly being revised and updated. Are they current with all of the new scientific studies and practices?



There has not been _that_ many changes in things in the last couple of decades. Their experiences are still valid in respect to how people with muscle mass tend to solve their problems with it. They have not reccomended going to the gym and I think it would be kind of egotistical of me to think that I am smarter than they and would not fall into the traps Nagato and Hatsumi seem to.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 9, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Some guys in the Booj seem to have differing opinions on this topic too...
> 
> http://greenman.dk/content/simple/bujinkan/warrior.html



I would encourage you to choose your information carefully.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 9, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> There has not been _that_ many changes in things in the last couple of decades. Their experiences are still valid in respect to how people with muscle mass tend to solve their problems with it. They have not reccomended going to the gym and I think it would be kind of egotistical of me to think that I am smarter than they and would not fall into the traps Nagato and Hatsumi seem to.


 
Once again Don, no one is talking about building or using muscle mass.
Are you even reading the posts? Can you please answer my questions directly?


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Once again Don, no one is talking about building or using muscle mass.
> Are you even reading the posts? Can you please answer my questions directly?



Yes I have been reading the posts. I will not shoot back any rudeness at you in turn. But I will point out something you wrote as recently as post #87.



> Strengthening the spine, hips, knees, and back will assist in maintaining correct posture



You say strengthening, but claim it is not building up muscle mass.   I say that strength, of any type, has the same traps attached to it. The Japanese do not lead us or advise us in conditioning other than doing taijutsu, stretching and things like taking long walks.


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## seansnyder (Mar 10, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Yes I have been reading the posts. I will not shoot back any rudeness at you in turn. But I will point out something you wrote as recently as post #87.
> 
> 
> 
> You say strengthening, but claim it is not building up muscle mass.  I say that strength, of any type, has the same traps attached to it. The Japanese do not lead us or advise us in conditioning other than doing taijutsu, stretching and things like taking long walks.


 
THE question to you Don Roley is how can these points listed below not benefit a martial artist or any taijutsu practitioner?
I have listed points made by National academy of sports medicine &#8211; some of the effects of strength training. (Normal recommended strength-training routine)

Bone Density - Consistent strength training Increases bone density and prevents osteoporosis. 

Injury prevention - a wide variety of injury can be prevented by strengthening muscles and joints. Range of motion in joints is increased.

Stronger and more resilient muscles leads improved balance, flexibility, mobility and stability.

Inactivity can lead to decrease in bone density and brittleness. 

Stronger the muscles the faster the recovery. 

Enhance performance in sports and exercise, no matter what you favorite sport &#8211; your performance can be unquestionable improved by strength training.

AGE &#8211; Strong seniors fall down less, they recover faster. If they do fall they are more resilient and heal faster. 

Strong enough to participate in recreation and sports. It also couples daily living, picking up packages in the grocery store. Less pain. 

Dramatic impact on posture, having the body move and work well cohesively. 


For many decades now, scientists have shown how muscle conditioning, especially strength training reduces injuries; your muscle and connective tissue undergo adaptations resulting in increased maximum tensile strength. (Facts from the national library of medicine)

American Psycological Association has a theory in progress that states; sports combine learning and exercise, they may both increase blood supply and enhance brain connections. Some evidence in humans suggests that being physically fit helps people maintain their cognitive abilities as they age. I look forward to your response.

Sean Snyder


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## rutherford (Mar 10, 2006)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> THE question to you Don Roley is how can these points listed below not benefit a martial artist or any taijutsu practitioner?
> 
> Sean Snyder


 
The question for you, Sean Snyder, is how do you know that these and other benefits are not already enjoyed by the people who appropriately practice Taijutsu?


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## seansnyder (Mar 10, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> The question for you, Sean Snyder, is how do you know that these and other benefits are not already enjoyed by the people who appropriately practice Taijutsu?


 

Where did this come from?  Are you even reading the same thread?

Sean Snyder

P.S.  This was why this question wasn't directed to you and it was directed to Don.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 10, 2006)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> P.S.  This was why this question wasn't directed to you and it was directed to Don.


Snippy, are we?  FYI, there are many of us that have been reading this thread.   My thoughts are the same as Rutherford's regarding already enjoying these benefits.


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## seansnyder (Mar 10, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Snippy, are we? FYI, there are many of us that have been reading this thread. My thoughts are the same as Rutherford's regarding already enjoying these benefits.


 

Dave, 

Show me where I stated the above.

Sean Snyder


P.S.  Only "snippy" at people who misquote me.


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## rutherford (Mar 10, 2006)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> P.S. Only "snippy" at people who misquote me.


Since the quotes are exactly as you type them, I fail to see how you've been misquoted.

Feel free to explain.


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## lalom (Mar 10, 2006)

I'm sorry, but I've tried to read this thread since the beginning and I am having trouble figuring out what is the actual question being discussed.  Can anyone paraphrase here?


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> My thoughts are the same as Rutherford's regarding already enjoying these benefits.



If you do a lot of correct practice. So I would rather do more taijutsu practice than go to the gym. That will keep me in a shape able to practice taijutsu.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 10, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I've tried to read this thread since the beginning and I am having trouble figuring out what is the actual question being discussed. Can anyone paraphrase here?


 
I _believe_ that the question is: Is it beneficial to our art to be in shape.

Somehow its turned into a debate between "Strength or No Strength" however.


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## lalom (Mar 10, 2006)

My two cents are that there is a difference in endurance strength and muscular strength.  I think that with taijutsu we obviously need endurance strenghtening.  Weight training doesn't necessarily produce bulk if that is not what one is trying to do.  It all depends on the type of weight training being done.  

I don't see how merely doing taijutsu would increase endurance conditioning.  And to propogate the notion that no endurance training is necessary or it is of no value is being naive.  I think we need a balance of it all.  Technique, endurance strenthening, and muscular strengthening (not bulk, ripped abs, protruding muscles like some might misinterpret it to be.)


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## seansnyder (Mar 10, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> My two cents are that there is a difference in endurance strength and muscular strength. I think that with taijutsu we obviously need endurance strenghtening. Weight training doesn't necessarily produce bulk if that is not what one is trying to do. It all depends on the type of weight training being done.
> 
> I don't see how merely doing taijutsu would increase endurance conditioning. And to propogate the notion that no endurance training is necessary or it is of no value is being naive. I think we need a balance of it all. Technique, endurance strenthening, and muscular strengthening (not bulk, ripped abs, protruding muscles like some might misinterpret it to be.)


 
Before I run off at the mouth, let me say where I am coming from:
 I have 17 yrs in fitness training, with that said...I have the following under my belt,

1.)Certified personal trainer 
2.)amatuer bodybuilder
3.)competative weightlifter
4.)competative powerlifter
5.)budo taijutsu for 11 yrs

so my question, what IS the difference between endurance strengthening and muscular strengthening?  Just curious......

Sean Snyder

P.S. I agree with you on weight training doesn't necessarily produce bulk. You are very correct on WHAT type of training, not neccessarily WEIGHT training.  I can do yoga and gain strength without bulk.


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## seansnyder (Mar 10, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you do a lot of correct practice. So I would rather do more taijutsu practice than go to the gym. That will keep me in a shape able to practice taijutsu.


 
So taijutsu has become somewhat of a "Billy Blanks" Tai Boxing????
I do not believe our art will keep you in shape.  I have seen and trained with many that ARE NOT in shape.  (Please keep in mind, I have not stated all shihan or budo practitioners are out of shape.)

So Don, are the people out there out of shape doing it wrong.  They are not doing "correct practice".  Just curious.....


-sean


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> I don't see how merely doing taijutsu would increase endurance conditioning.



Do lots of it and in low stances. Also, long walks is what Hatsumi has reccomended. For me, that also includes going up mountains from time to time.

I also do things like never using the car to go to work- only my bike unless it is typhoon season.


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2006)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> So Don, are the people out there out shape doing it wrong.  They are not doing "correct practice".  Just curious.....



If they are fat, it is proabably a simple matter of too much calories in and not enough using of the body.


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## seansnyder (Mar 10, 2006)

Mon Mon said:
			
		

> How important is it for a martial artist to be in shape? Just Curious.


 
So back to the original question, if the only thing you can create is kukan around a cheeseburger......then you have problems!!!!:cheers: 

You have to be in somewhat shape just to survive in today's world.  I come into contact with alot of people everyday from every walk of life.  And some of them haven't "walked a day in their life".  So to answer your question, you need to be in shape.  If you are taking this art to take care of yourself, you need to TAKE CARE of yourself prior to taking this art.  Make sense?  May all your decisions be good ones........


-sean

P.S.  By in shape, I don't mean just a beer gut.(So all of you out there with the "keg" hanging off ya, don't be offended)  If you have problems existing in everyday life due to your current condition(out of breath walking to the bathroom), you will have problems in our art.  (IMO)


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2006)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> So back to the original question, if the only thing you can create is kukan around a cheeseburger......then you have problems!!!!:cheers:



You know, I really dislike the way people like you seem to always try to make the other side sound like we are fat slobs that only want to eat cheeseburgers and watch tv.

People need to be healthy. They can be in standard health to practice and get good at this art. The idea of this art is to live long enough to die in bed. There are comments from Hatsumi that you should eat and live healthy.

There is no great need to be anything other than of standard health to practice this art. There are many people in Japan of advanced age that are not paragons of health and strength and yet are feared for their skills.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 10, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Yes I have been reading the posts. I will not shoot back any rudeness at you in turn. But I will point out something you wrote as recently as post #87.


 
What part of asking for a direct anwser is rude? 
Back to the topic....



I will repeat one of my questions because it got lost somewhere in the conversation. Do you believe that having an above minimal fitness level (where minimal is defined as being able to stand upright and move the legs and arms.) can have a positive effect on ones Budo Taijutsu ?
If the anwser is yes, then what is the problem with creating a positive effect in ones Budo Taijutsu? (It is also assumed that an above minimal fitness level does not = increased muscle mass)


Listed below are some interesting articles based on objective research. ....FYI these are just a handful of articles on the subject, there are THOUSANDS more...

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0701.htm

http://www.alinenewton.com/pdf-articles/core.htm

http://www.fitplan.com/report/corestabathleticperf.html

http://umanitoba.fitdv.com/new/articles/article.html?artid=128

http://www.ascentphysicaltherapy.com/stretch.htm


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> I will repeat one of my questions because it got lost somewhere in the conversation. Do you believe that having an above minimal fitness level (where minimal is defined as being able to stand upright and move the legs and arms.) can have a positive effect on ones Budo Taijutsu ?
> If the anwser is yes, then what is the problem with creating a positive effect in ones Budo Taijutsu? (It is also assumed that an above minimal fitness level does not = increased muscle mass)



As I said before, the real question is whether concentrating on conditioning would be more of a hindrence than a help should be the first question.

Really, I would rather have more money to help raise my kids. But to drop that into a debate about taking a job that would keep me away from my kids for years is roughly the same type of thing I am seeing here. The primary thing we should be concentrating on is getting better at taijutsu. If we had found that no one at any time has ever gotten into the trap of relying on strength rather than developing good skills then the next question should be the ones you ask above.


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## Seattletcj (Mar 10, 2006)

I guess if someone spent more time conditioning then training then I would have to agree with you. The truth is, it does not really take that much time to do some simple conditioning exercises. And you dont even have to go to the gym. You just need to be motivated to do it, and fit it in to your day a few times a week. The motivation usually comes from education/understanding.

 I have spent alot (too much) of time here TALKING about martial arts and conditioning, when I could have been DOING them. Here is that time I was just talking about. In the time I spent typing and straining my neck, I could have been doing some exercises.
It just boils down to what your priorities are, how much you wish to improve yourself, and how much you are willing to invest in that improvement.

Good luck and thanks for the conversation.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 10, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> I
> I have spent alot (too much) of time here TALKING about martial arts and conditioning, when I could have been DOING them. Here is that time I was just talking about. In the time I spent typing and straining my neck, I could have been doing some exercises.



I'm gonna say "bah" to that as well, because it implies that 24 hours a day should be spent working out.  At some point I would say enough is enough.

Today, for example, in addition to the physical aspects of my job (I climb buildings, ladders and towers) I ran 1/2 a mile, (and I dont mean Jogged) Did a 20 minute powerwalk, and pushups, squats, and curls with handweights.

So I should be working out more now instead of drinking a beer with friends and hanging out online?  No thanks... 

BTW... and this is gonna sound SOOOO bad... but I mean it in a serious way...

what do you all think of sex as excercise?  Is it, or isnt it, a good cardio activity?


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## lalom (Mar 10, 2006)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> so my question, what IS the difference between endurance strengthening and muscular strengthening? Just curious......


 
If you've seen me in person (heh heh), you will obviously conclude that I do not have the qualifications you do so please excuse me for being ignorant.  I only meant to share my opinion.  What I mean by muscular strengthening, I guess, might be more adequately termed toning?  I'm not sure of the proper terminology so forgive me.  I can see where toning is gaining some element of strength without bulk.  Endurance, on the other hand, to me, would be more being more able to persevere by keeping one's wits, not breathing hard, and basically having longevity.  Maybe it's all the same and I'm sure you can clear that up.  

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think taking an occasional walk will build that endurance.  Endurance is something that I feel has to always be "stretched" and "pushed" at greater lengths to be improved.  Swimming is another way to build endurance.  Yet come to think of it that would also make one more toned... Boy!  Now I'm confused!  I do see your point in that some are misconstruing strength for having a body like the governator Arnold.  Strength isn't solely bulk.  I'll stop here cuz I'm rambling!


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## Cryozombie (Mar 10, 2006)

So you mean the difference between Strength Training, and Endurance training, not building endurance strength...


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## lalom (Mar 10, 2006)

Yes?  Endurance training does build endurance strength doesn't it?  With my lack of proper terminology in all this fitness talk, one might guess I'm one of those lazy, cheeseburger eating, football watching couch potatoes Don Roley seems to be mentioning!  LOL  Actually I am overweight, but I'm not that bad... I think...


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## Blotan Hunka (Mar 10, 2006)

1 hour a day 3 days a week, that can get you in excellent shape...most of us can probably trim that off our internet time and have a place for exercise. Time is no excuse.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 11, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> BTW... and this is gonna sound SOOOO bad... but I mean it in a serious way...
> 
> what do you all think of sex as excercise? Is it, or isnt it, a good cardio activity?


 
Studies by sexologists show that a good 20 to 30 minute romp will burn between 125 and 150 calories.  This is the equivolent of one beer.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 11, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This is the equivolent of one beer.



Ah!

Now you put this in language I can understand!


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## Seattletcj (Mar 11, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I'm gonna say "bah" to that as well, because it implies that 24 hours a day should be spent working out. At some point I would say enough is enough.


 
It does not imply that at all. re-read the post please.



			
				seattletcj said:
			
		

> The truth is, it does not really take that much time to do some simple conditioning exercises. And you dont even have to go to the gym. You just need to be motivated to do it, and fit it in to your day a few times a week. The motivation usually comes from education/understanding.
> 
> I have spent alot (too much) of time here TALKING about martial arts and conditioning, when I could have been DOING them. Here is that time I was just talking about. In the time I spent typing and straining my neck, I could have been doing some exercises.


 
Less then an hour a day can improve fitness levels. It sounds like you do more then that already, so obviously the comment does not apply to you Technopunk.


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## Kreth (Mar 11, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Studies by sexologists show that a good 20 to 30 minute romp will burn between 125 and 150 calories. This is the equivolent of one beer.


So if I have sex a dozen times a night, I should be all set. Geez, I'm gonna have forearms like Popeye...


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## Cryozombie (Mar 11, 2006)

Seattletcj said:
			
		

> It does not imply that at all. re-read the post please.



I dunno, The comment read to _me_ like "the time you spend online should be spent working out"


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## shesulsa (Mar 11, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Now you put this in language I can understand!





			
				Kreth said:
			
		

> Geez, I'm gonna have forearms like Popeye...


:rofl:


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## Seattletcj (Mar 11, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I dunno, The comment read to _me_ like "the time you spend online should be spent working out"


 
The time someone spends online could be spent working out. *Again*, not you specifically.



			
				seattletcj said:
			
		

> It just boils down to what your priorities are, how much you wish to improve yourself, and how much you are willing to invest in that improvement.


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## Don Roley (Mar 11, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Studies by sexologists show that a good 20 to 30 minute romp will burn between 125 and 150 calories.  This is the equivolent of one beer.



"Honey! I got a new way for me to help you to lose some weight!!!!"


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