# Defense Against The Full Nelson



## MJS (Apr 12, 2006)

Seems like we have a very good discussion going on regarding the bearhug defense.  So, to continue on that path, I thought we could discuss defenses against the full nelson.  

I'm going to go with my same comments as I made in the bearhug thread.  A defense needs to begin right away.  Waiting too long, and you could find yourself in a bad position.

So, thoughts on this?  

Mike


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## kamishinkan (Apr 12, 2006)

I had this conversation a few years ago with a gentleman that said the full nelson could not be countered. This flew in the face of my past experience so I had him put it on me, although he is quite a bit bigger, I simply reached up with both hands grabed his two pinky fingers, pressed them out to my full arms length (to the sides) and could have droped him most hard to my front. Finger presses are great equalizers! Seemed simple enough at the time. He agreed after he quit screaming!


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## michaeledward (Apr 12, 2006)

When someone is attempting to apply a Full Nelson, I was taught to place the backs of both my hands against my forehead, elbows out. This will prevent, theoretically at least, the complete application of the attack. 

From there, the scraping hoof, "kick - kick - stomp", would seem to be effective.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 12, 2006)

kamishinkan said:
			
		

> I had this conversation a few years ago with a gentleman that said the full nelson could not be countered. This flew in the face of my past experience so I had him put it on me, although he is quite a bit bigger, I simply reached up with both hands grabed his two pinky fingers, pressed them out to my full arms length (to the sides) and could have droped him most hard to my front. Finger presses are great equalizers! Seemed simple enough at the time. He agreed after he quit screaming!


There is a kenpo technique that involves a counter to either a full lock nelson or at least an attempted nelson... not being a kenpoist I can't rightly recall what's name is and the moves involved with it... 
But, yeah, if you're able to grab the pinkies by all means that little trick (out of several) ... err does the trick.


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## HKphooey (Apr 12, 2006)

I have always been a big fan of attacking the knees.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2006)

I would grapevine with my legs and start breaking fingers.  If I could work a stomp into this, I would.  The trouble with a full nelson is that someone can throw you with it, so its only a matter of time until it happens.

BTW - has anyone ever tried or thought of bending over quickly to see if they could throw them off?


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## MA-Caver (Apr 12, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I would grapevine with my legs and start breaking fingers.  If I could work a stomp into this, I would.  The trouble with a full nelson is that someone can throw you with it, so its only a matter of time until it happens.
> 
> BTW - has anyone ever tried or thought of bending over quickly to see if they could throw them off?


I've done that but was unable to throw them off... so I grabbed (their) ankles and pulled as hard as I could... when once it didn't work I moved my hands up to the back of their knees and pulled them out. It messed up their intentions rawther quickly I'd say. But some guys... I've found out the hard-way... just don't bend as easily.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 12, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> When someone is attempting to apply a Full Nelson, I was taught to place the backs of both my hands against my forehead, elbows out. This will prevent, theoretically at least, the complete application of the attack.
> 
> From there, the scraping hoof, "kick - kick - stomp", would seem to be effective.



This is very similar to what we are taught


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 12, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> When someone is attempting to apply a Full Nelson, I was taught to place the backs of both my hands against my forehead, elbows out. This will prevent, theoretically at least, the complete application of the attack.
> 
> From there, the scraping hoof, "kick - kick - stomp", would seem to be effective.



I have yet to have that fail for me.  In the style I study, we also table the knee afterwards to take thier center.

Jeff


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## BlackSheep (Apr 12, 2006)

I have never read of nor seen someone using a full nelson to win in a MMA or sub wrestling match.

I think the reason is:

1) It&#8217;s easy to avoid getting caught in a full nelson in the first place.
2) There are a number of reliable ways to break or neutralize the hold.
3) Full nelsons aren&#8217;t very useful holds and there are much better alternatives.

One escape from the full nelson (standing):

Step one; bull up your neck and grapevine one of his legs.
Step two; reach back and grab the pinky and ring finger and bend them back.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

Posture your head up, clamp his arms with your arms and Tai Otoshi. Or if you get free, your choice of standup or clinch 101.


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## Flatlander (Apr 12, 2006)

Perhaps tear the aggressor's ear off, if you can get ahold of it.


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## bignick (Apr 12, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> When someone is attempting to apply a Full Nelson, I was taught to place the backs of both my hands against my forehead, elbows out. This will prevent, theoretically at least, the complete application of the attack.
> 
> From there, the scraping hoof, "kick - kick - stomp", would seem to be effective.



Even better, relax and reach for the ground...they can't even get halfway there...


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 13, 2006)

it's hard to get out of one if somebody who knows what they're doing is really pouring it on.

it's pretty easy to prevent somebody from locking it down, though -- complex hold with lots of early warning.

when someone tries to get it on, do three things at once:

drop your weight
punch straight downward with both hands
snap your head back and up

from there you have numerous options.


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## dougp (Apr 13, 2006)

Waste of time training on a defense for this.  If you get caught in a FN, you deserve to be there.  But if you should get caught, throw/roll him, and you land directly on his chest in a great position for a finish cause his arm will be hanging out for the taking!  Then you snap it in half!


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## Hand Sword (Apr 13, 2006)

Go with the flow, bending down, while stepping behind their feet and take down.


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## Franc0 (Apr 13, 2006)

IMO, there are two types of full nelsons', the escapable version and the unescapable version. The escapable version is when the full nelson is applied by interlocking the fingers behind the head. This allows for several of the above mentioned methods of escape, with my favorite being the rip the fingers apart method. The second version (taught to me by Sensei Gene LeBell) is when applying the full nelson, the left hand hooks onto the right wrist, lowering the elbows and pushing forward with the right palm. When this was put on me, the pain was excruciating, and the slightest attempts at escaping just brought on even more pain. To this day I have yet to have anyone escape, and I've used it many times at the nightclub I moonlight at. To me, the optimal defense is to keep the person from getting it on you to begin with, again mentioned in some of the above replies.

Franco


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## Hand Sword (Apr 13, 2006)

Absolutely. Prevention is the best policy. All in favor of awareness?


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## Ross (Apr 13, 2006)

A point so far over looked is that the full nelson will not be applied from a static position. There will be an initial bump from behind (or continuous forward movement) as the attacker makes contact and applies the lock. 

If you are travelling forward, being moved around and trying to regain your balance I would suggest that it is very difficult to effectively put in kicks to the shins that would be sufficient to release the grip to escape.

But it depends on how you train. I would suggest that if the attack was applied with force the technique may be inadequate.

Lastly, I have always had an issue with the "using your periphery/awareness" on any attack from the rear. There will always be instances when you can employ this - but do not rely on it, if you do get caught what are you going to do?

Just some points to keep the ball rolling...............


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## HKphooey (Apr 13, 2006)

Ross, good point.  

In the instance which I am forced forward, I would step one foot forward to stop the momentum and then deliver a low back kick to the knee.  The forward movement (and step) actually sets me up for a stronger stance to deliver that kick.


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## Ross (Apr 13, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> Ross, good point.
> 
> In the instance which I am forced forward, I would step one foot forward to stop the momentum and then deliver a low back kick to the knee. The forward movement (and step) actually sets me up for a stronger stance to deliver that kick.


 
I would recommend that you take several steps forward first, settle your stance and then kick. Otherwise you are still reacting to their forward momuntum and it is a case of size and strength over technique.

The best person to speak to about this is Doc, the way that he teaches Repeated Devestation with regard to surviving the initial assult is THE most effective that I have experienced.


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## HKphooey (Apr 13, 2006)

Luckily I am 6'7", so unless I am at a basketball game, I should be safe.


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## Ross (Apr 13, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> Luckily I am 6'7", so unless I am at a basketball game, I should be safe.


 
 Lucky chap then!

You'd probably need a scaffolding to get you in a full nelson then. lol


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## ninhito (Apr 13, 2006)

My defense is really a moment of slowing down the action, if the guy is about to hoist me into the air I jump with him, knocking him off balance, if he puts it on me on the ground I do a shoulder role towards the attacker's head kicking at the climiax, it shakes the person off or he ends up with a messed up head...don't know if it works all the time, but it has up til' now...


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## Ross (Apr 13, 2006)

ninhito said:
			
		

> My defense is really a moment of slowing down the action, if the guy is about to hoist me into the air I jump with him, knocking him off balance, if he puts it on me on the ground I do a shoulder role towards the attacker's head kicking at the climiax, it shakes the person off or he ends up with a messed up head...don't know if it works all the time, but it has up til' now...


 
I maybe confused but when you say you "jump with him, knocking him off balance". I think that you are thinking of this attack as a vertical lift straight up and straight down. Why would someone attack you with this. I propose that the strike is most likely to be trying to lift you off at an angle (however slight) to up end you and drive you into the ground. If you jump with him you will just be making his job a lot more easier as you will be landing a lot harder due to the height without your hands to help cushion the blow. 

Also, as previously stated, I would suggest that you try your technique agianst an attack with forward momentum driving you forward, you would have no base to "jump" from.

It is worth remembering that a full nelson is a controlling lock and not designed to throw you anywhere. - maybe worth seeing my note about Bear hugs on a different thread.

Then I may be wrong - be realistic and try it and see.


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## LostSynn (Apr 13, 2006)

A couple of years back i had an incident with some friends.  Friends A, B and me were conversing.  A and B both wanted to tell me their sides of the same story.  A was a little intoxicated and way too much coffee with suger for his own good.  (A is also only about 5 foot 6) A got angry at B (who stands at about 6 foot 1)  A jumps up to try to punch B in the face, B slips the punch and trys to run away.  A runs after him swinging, yes swinging while he runs, i think the correct term would be "windmilling".  So at this point i decide i have to get involved.  So now i'm chasing after A who is trying to hit B who is running between cars in a parking lot at a movie theater that we happen to be at.  I catch up to A and i slip him into a full nelson.  I don't know why a full nelson, i'm just happy i've got him, and he's not trying to hurt anyone anymore.  Now i'm not sure what to do, i don't want to hurt A he's my friend albeit a stupid drunk one.  But i can't let him go to hurt me or B.  So i crank the full nelson and i whisper in his ear "If you relax i'll let you go"  not the best thing but i was trying.  By this time the rest of our friends have caught up to us and they began to yell.  Including my girlfriend at the time, who was screaming "Hey A, you better give up or my boyfriend is going to kick your ***"  I'm not kidding she actually said this.  (Also if your wondering about our ages I was 28, she was 20, A was 22 and B was 19)  So the whole time i'm sitting there telling him to relax, the crowd was yelling and i'm thinking  "i know five ways right now to get out of a full nelson". Praying that he didn't know just one way to get out.  No pressure at all no pressure.  After what seems like a decade A decides to go limp. So i tell him i will let him go in 3  .... 2.....1.... and i pushed him away.          

Damn i never felt so lucky in my life.  He walked away, blew off some steam, and no one got hurt.  In the mean while we attracked some of the local teens that were on their way to "help" make sure no one got hurt.

A million things kept going in my head but the most important was "i don't want to have to hurt him"  Also i don't talk to A anymore.  I don't like people that solve their problems with their fists especially his own friends.


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## MJS (Apr 18, 2006)

I almost forgot about this thread.  Looks like there are some very good replies!!:ultracool   Of course, like any grab of this type, not letting is get applied fully is the goal.  Pinning the arms prior to them getting behind your head, using your hands on your forehead to relieve some pressure, going for the fingers, knees, shins, etc. are all possibilities.

Of course, working this from a non-static position will help make that training a bit more alive. 

Mike


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## still learning (Apr 18, 2006)

Hello, My son mention that "Full Nelson" is not allow in High School Wrestling and Judo. For the protection of the kids, I am guessing the "Full Nelson is a very dangerous move?

The ideas of breaking the fingers...sounds like a good idea! and attacking the leg areas too, as mention above posts...Aloha


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## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

Going for the fingers first is tough. Your arms are at angles that don't give you good leverage to pry the fingers. We were taught that early on, very hard to pull of for real. I'd recommend doing the other stuff first.


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## Tony (Apr 21, 2006)

In my style we were taught this method where you drop your shoulders down and keep your arms straight so they can't put it on and it seems to really work but you have to know when its coming.


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## bignick (Apr 21, 2006)

Ross said:
			
		

> It is worth remembering that a full nelson is a controlling lock and not designed to throw you anywhere. - maybe worth seeing my note about Bear hugs on a different thread.



Actually, applied properly, not the fingers laced version, the full nelson is just a fast road to breaking someone's neck..


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> Actually, applied properly, not the fingers laced version, the full nelson is just a fast road to breaking someone's neck..


-A break would be unlikely. Slipped disk maybe.


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