# Training methodology



## Forwardpower (May 9, 2021)

Hi there! I'm new to this Forum. I was looking for some inside from some fellow Wing Chun practitioner.

Since I was mentioned in the Challenge from Rokas I got a lot of comments to say the least. 

Most of them are from people in other martial arts which do not know the system and think I adapted or modified the stile to make it work. And others are from Wing Chun practitioner who think that it's not Wing Chun at all. Both are wierd to me, since I've never done anything other than Wing Chun the way I learned it. I mean, I see a clear difference to other lineages and I already knew that Applied Wing Chun is kind of an outlier, but everything I do is as far as I know just WC.

As I mentioned to Rokas, I was confused when I visited other schools and saw no conditioning, timing drills and so on. I don't get how anybody is supposed to learn apply WC without proper the training. 

I see a lot of WC guys try to apply basic stuff without success since their timing, distance and foremost handling of pressure is way of. Also most seem to lack any strategy for recovering. Which is no wonder since I saw how WC is usually taught. 

I think the training methodology is key to learning effective WC. Solid fundation from the forms, footwork, knowledge of how to generate power, basic applications, back and forth drills with pressure testing and light sparring goes a long way without having to compete in real fights. 

I don't think everybody has to become a price fighter but at least everybody should have a feeling for timing, distance and how to handle some pressure.

So what does your training methodology look like? I'm honestly curious how other make sure that they are able to apply their WC.


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## wckf92 (May 10, 2021)

Forwardpower said:


> Hi there! I'm new to this Forum. I was looking for some inside from some fellow Wing Chun practitioner.
> 
> Since I was mentioned in the Challenge from Rokas I got a lot of comments to say the least.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the forum!

I had a very similar experience when I first ventured out to another lineages school.


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## wckf92 (May 10, 2021)

Forwardpower said:


> Challenge from Rokas



Hi @Forwardpower 
Can you link the Rokas video here?
Thx!


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## wckf92 (May 10, 2021)

Found it I think?


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## Forwardpower (May 10, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Hi @Forwardpower
> Can you link the Rokas video here?
> Thx!


Damn, what was i thinking😅


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## Forwardpower (May 10, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> I had a very similar experience when I first ventured out to another lineages school.


Thank you!
It was wierd seeing other methods of teaching WC. But i never got a straight answer how they think someone is supposed to learn distance, timing ect. without training for it.


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## wckf92 (May 10, 2021)

Forwardpower said:


> Thank you!
> It was wierd seeing other methods of teaching WC. But i never got a straight answer how they think someone is supposed to learn distance, timing ect. without training for it.


Neither did I. But their wing chun didn't seem to be combat focused, so maybe they didn't want to admit it to a fellow wing chun brother? 
Either way, I'm glad and grateful my wing chun upbringing was highly focused on pressure testing.


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## Forwardpower (May 10, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Neither did I. But their wing chun didn't seem to be combat focused, so maybe they didn't want to admit it to a fellow wing chun brother?
> Either way, I'm glad and grateful my wing chun upbringing was highly focused on pressure testing.


I asked myself the same. Either way, it seems that i'm not getting the feedback i was hoping for. I thought, maybe naively, that i would get some insight here since I saw that there are many lineages active on this site. I honestly want to know what their training looks like and why. Maybe they are after completely other results, which would explain the different approach and they achieve it efficiently with their method of training. Well it was worth a shot i guess🤷

Since you seem to answer may i ask what your training looks like?


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## ShortBridge (May 10, 2021)

I think we could start a support group. Common element between us?


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## wckf92 (May 10, 2021)

Forwardpower said:


> I asked myself the same. Either way, it seems that i'm not getting the feedback i was hoping for. I thought, maybe naively, that i would get some insight here since I saw that there are many lineages active on this site. I honestly want to know what their training looks like and why. Maybe they are after completely other results, which would explain the different approach and they achieve it efficiently with their method of training. Well it was worth a shot i guess🤷
> 
> Since you seem to answer may i ask what your training looks like?


Well hopefully you stick around. It would be nice to have another opinion on this forum. 
By the way, I saw the video with your other fight and it was great to see you get a lot of use of your pole punch (or arrow punch). Well done!

My training involved a ton of conditioning, power training, speed training, two man drills, circle training, etc etc.


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## ShortBridge (May 10, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> ...
> 
> My training involved a ton of conditioning, power training, speed training, two man drills, circle training, etc etc.


Mine too. 

Where are you represented in the posted video, @Forwardpower and which other video is @wckf92 referring to?


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## wckf92 (May 10, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> Mine too.
> 
> Where are you represented in the posted video, @Forwardpower and which other video is @wckf92 referring to?


I think this may be it but I'm not 100% certain


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## Forwardpower (May 10, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> I think we could start a support group. Common element between us?


😅 maybe we should, or atleast exchange some ideas


wckf92 said:


> Well hopefully you stick around. It would be nice to have another opinion on this forum.
> By the way, I saw the video with your other fight and it was great to see you get a lot of use of your pole punch (or arrow punch). Well done!
> 
> My training involved a ton of conditioning, power training, speed training, two man drills, circle training, etc etc.


Thank you! The arrow punch turned out to be a strong point in my fights. The feedback from the opponents where always that they where hard to stop, since they come straight and with the vertical fist. So I focused a lot on putting power in those.


ShortBridge said:


> Mine too.
> 
> Where are you represented in the posted video


I'm the second guy with "Applied Wing Chun"


wckf92 said:


> I think this may be it but I'm not 100%


Yes that's me👍 but this particular fight was a mess. Wasn't really ready for the fight since I accepted it way to late. Forgot to kick somehow. Idk.😅

I think I'll stick around for a while👌


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## Forwardpower (May 11, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> My training involved a ton of conditioning, power training, speed training, two man drills, circle training, etc etc.


I see, are you both Duncan Leung students as well? Always liked the circle training, haven't done it in a while, thou.


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## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

Forwardpower said:


> Hi there! I'm new to this Forum. I was looking for some inside from some fellow Wing Chun practitioner.
> 
> Since I was mentioned in the Challenge from Rokas I got a lot of comments to say the least.
> 
> ...


I am only SLT level in VC so I want to start with that. However in my limited experience with "proper" VC training, I think VC is going to be different for every Sifu. Some Sifu learn some things very well and build their system around  that. Some folks buy a few posters and videos and open a school teach "a streamlined combative name here".

VC is different from place to place. Some folks will have a more fisticuffs version while others have more Biu Jee based system. 

I think it is all based on preference and to some degree,  ignorance.


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## ShortBridge (May 11, 2021)

angelariz said:


> ...
> I think it is all based on preference and to some degree,  ignorance.


Not "all".


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## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> Not "all".


I say all because whether you teach only what your sifu taught you or you modify what you learn, we all pretty much fit in that spectrum.


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## Forwardpower (May 11, 2021)

angelariz said:


> VC is different from place to place. Some folks will have a more fisticuffs version while others have more Biu Jee based system.
> 
> I think it is all based on preference and to some degree,  ignorance.


Thanks for the feedback. I'm not quite sure what you're saying. I was wondering what your training looks like and what the goal of it is. So i can make sense of it. Since i'm coming from a Lineage that focuses on application of the Art the training method is tailored to it. Which means pressure testing, condidtioning and so on...

And what does Biu Jee based mean?


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## Callen (May 11, 2021)

angelariz said:


> VC is different from place to place. Some folks will have a more fisticuffs version while others have more Biu Jee based system.


Out of curiosity, what lineage is VC? Also, what is a Biu Jee based system?


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## Mider (Aug 14, 2021)

I don’t understand this modern concept of that’s not wing Chun if you add this or that...a Wing Chun or JKD channel I like on YouTube named Adam Chan, he mentioned how Wing Chun guys would test and adapt the art, one guy fought and beat a boxer and adapted a lot 9f boxing...I believe Bruce Lee did that too.






As the OP said lot of the issues with wing Chun schools are that there’s no conditioning or as you said no adaptation. Another channel On YouTube that’s great is Philip Hartshorn, his Sifu has a channel too, Russ Cichon

I don’t dislike Rokas but I also don’t see who he or guys like Ramsay dewy are to act as though they are the judge and jury of the MA world.


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## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

Mider said:


> I don’t understand this modern concept of that’s not wing Chun if you add this or that...a Wing Chun or JKD channel I like on YouTube named Adam Chan, he mentioned how Wing Chun guys would test and adapt the art, one guy fought and beat a boxer and adapted a lot 9f boxing...I believe Bruce Lee did that too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see Rokas criticizing and awarding points to styles based on how he thinks a style trains which simply isn't the case...  It's annoying AF.


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## Mider (Aug 25, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> I see Rokas criticizing and awarding points to styles based on how he thinks a style trains which simply isn't the case...  It's annoying AF.


Dan the wolfman made a few videos trashing rokas and Ramsey Dewey...Rokas supposedly bought his blue belt and is terrible in mma


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2021)

Mider said:


> Dan the wolfman made a few videos trashing rokas and Ramsey Dewey...Rokas supposedly bought his blue belt and is terrible in mma


Rokas? Well, in all fairness, he's pretty new to MMA, and how good ...or bad he is at it doesn't really factor in to his commentary. 

He's mainly an advocate for what MMA offers, as opposed to what he trained before ...i.e. training with resistance and a competitive method for testing your skills against diverse opponents.

And then he's also trying to build a YouTube following


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> I see Rokas criticizing and awarding points to styles based on how he thinks a style trains which simply isn't the case...  It's annoying AF.


Yeah, well regarding Wing Chun, Rokas apparently did train that style at one point ...actually under two different organizations and had a bad experience in both. Was he generalizing about the problems or WC (WT)? Sure. But his complaints had some merit. I've been in Wing Chun since the late 70s and all too often have seen the same thing.

To his credit, he did later acknowledge that he was over broad in his criticism and apologized. I don't know what he has been saying lately. I don't really follow him....


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## Mider (Aug 30, 2021)

geezer said:


> Rokas? Well, in all fairness, he's pretty new to MMA, and how good ...or bad he is at it doesn't really factor in to his commentary.
> 
> He's mainly an advocate for what MMA offers, as opposed to what he trained before ...i.e. training with resistance and a competitive method for testing your skills against diverse opponents.
> 
> And then he's also trying to build a YouTube following


I think it does factor in...why would I care what a nobody thinks about MMA.


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## Mider (Aug 30, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yeah, well regarding Wing Chun, Rokas apparently did train that style at one point ...actually under two different organizations and had a bad experience in both. Was he generalizing about the problems or WC (WT)? Sure. But his complaints had some merit. I've been in Wing Chun since the late 70s and all too often have seen the same thing.
> 
> To his credit, he did later acknowledge that he was over broad in his criticism and apologized. I don't know what he has been saying lately. I don't really follow him....


It just seems to me Rokas doesn’t research the school or teacher. He should Go learn at the Inosanto academy or with Tim Tackett, they do JKD but they def spar.


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## Cynik75 (Aug 30, 2021)

Mider said:


> It just seems to me Rokas doesn’t research the school or teacher. He should Go learn at the Inosanto academy or with Tim Tackett, they do JKD but they def spar.


Jesus, man, on the first page of this topic there is a video from Rokas. The title of this video is "*I WAS WRONG ABOUT WING CHUN*".
He asked for examples of combat effective WC, he received and he admitted that some WC schools really teach people fighting.
What the f... is your problem?
I see that you have more problem with MMA than MMA has with wing chun.
BTW: Dan the Wolfman is arrogant ******* (in his youtube rants).


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## Mider (Aug 30, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Jesus, man, on the first page of this topic there is a video from Rokas. The title of this video is "*I WAS WRONG ABOUT WING CHUN*".
> He asked for examples of combat effective WC, he received and he admitted that some WC schools really teach people fighting.
> What the f... is your problem?
> I see that you have more problem with MMA than MMA has with wing chun.
> BTW: Dan the Wolfman is arrogant ******* (in his youtube rants).


Dan the Wolfman actually fought mma, trained with huge names....who tf is Rokas that I should care what he thinks? If I had an issue with MMA why would I like Dan the Wolfman who has an MMA gym... 

what’s your problem, is Rokas some mma bad *** who didn’t buy a blue belt after three months and waste 15 years training bs?


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## Cynik75 (Aug 30, 2021)

Mider said:


> Dan the Wolfman actually fought mma, trained with huge names....who tf is Rokas that I should care what he thinks? If I had an issue with MMA why would I like Dan the Wolfman who has an MMA gym...
> 
> what’s your problem, is Rokas some mma bad *** who didn’t buy a blue belt after three months and waste 15 years training bs?


Dan the Wolfman has "impressive" 2-3 MMA record with only wins over opponents who also have "estimable" record: Jeremy Morrison 10-14 (1-2 before Wolfman's fight) and Tony Hymon (0-2, and 0-0 before Wolfman's  fight)...  Really huge achievement. I'm starting to build an altar.
He trained with big names? It does not make him a big name.
STILL: 
Is Rokas right that many of WC gym sucks - YES HE IS
Has he admitted that some of WC gyms does not suck - YES HE HAS
What is your problem with him? He has enough courage to test himself and his aikido skills. It is much much much more then the rest of aikidokas has ever done. And many of chunners too. And nearly all bujinkan adepts.
He said that some MA suck, but also said - "prove me wrong". Some WC people showed him that he's partially wrong, but bujinkan and aikido communities has failed.


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## Mider (Aug 30, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Dan the Wolfman has "impressive" 2-3 MMA record with only wins over opponents who also have "estimable" record: Jeremy Morrison 10-14 (1-2 before Wolfman's fight) and Tony Hymon (0-2, and 0-0 before Wolfman's  fight)...  Really huge achievement. I'm starting to build an altar.
> He trained with big names? It does not make him a big name.
> STILL:
> Is Rokas right that many of WC gym sucks - YES HE IS
> ...


And what’s your record? Lol what’s Rokas record?

no but I’ve seen his videos and he knows his ****, unless you think Gokor just hands out black belts...maybe he bought it 🤣🤣

what test dude he’s a nobody, ive Said what my issues with him are, do you worship the guy? Yeah you’ve met every Aikido expert 😂😂😂

who tf is Rokas that anyone needs to prove anything to him?  Dude Rokas is a nobody like you and me


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## Cynik75 (Aug 30, 2021)

How does it relate to the merit? Rokas general statement is: training methodology counts and some so called "Traditional" Martial Arts schools methodology is ********. 
Maybe instead of attacking him, you should try to attack his statement. If you consider his opinion correct why do you attack him? Because he is not a good fighter? So what? He does not claim to be one.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 30, 2021)

Mider said:


> I don’t dislike Rokas but I also don’t see who he or guys like Ramsay dewy are to act as though they are the judge and jury of the MA world.


Total agreement.

To me, they are just creating content for monetization.


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## Mider (Aug 30, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> How does it relate to the merit? Rokas general statement is: training methodology counts and some so called "Traditional" Martial Arts schools methodology is ********.
> Maybe instead of attacking him, you should try to attack his statement. If you consider his opinion correct why do you attack him? Because he is not a good fighter? So what? He does not claim to be one.


That creates merit for him how? Dan the wolfman has merit because he trains with top guys and has competed are you illiterate or something?
I do attack his statement 

again for the millionth time who tf cares what he thinks, he’s a nobody who paid for a blue belt. You guys suck up to these guys like Ramsey Dewey n Rokas, why? Idk 

anyway get this through your head, idc what Rokas thinks and I doubt most do.


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## Mider (Aug 30, 2021)

Deleted


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## Mider (Aug 31, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> How does it relate to the merit? Rokas general statement is: training methodology counts and some so called "Traditional" Martial Arts schools methodology is ********.
> Maybe instead of attacking him, you should try to attack his statement. If you consider his opinion correct why do you attack him? Because he is not a good fighter? So what? He does not claim to be one.


I’m trying to understand your logic you’re praising some nobody like Rokas yet a guy with multiple black belts from some of the best guys on earth has no merit to you...


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## Cynik75 (Aug 31, 2021)

Just show me what is wrong with Rokas statements mentioned above
- is he right that methology counts?
- is he right that some of TMA schools have wrong methodology?


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## Mider (Aug 31, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Just show me what is wrong with Rokas statements mentioned above
> - is he right that methology counts?
> - is he right that some of TMA schools have wrong methodology?


I’m done talking to you, i just told you idc what Rokas says.

Many schools both mma, TMA, BJJ have wring methodology lol...

it doesn’t make Rokas a damn expert

btw I asked you a question, you respect Rokas who’s a nobody yet think Dan the Wolfman is mean ?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Just show me what is wrong with Rokas statements mentioned above
> - is he right that methology counts?
> - is he right that some of TMA schools have wrong methodology?


Some schools have low quality training and instruction, regardless of methodology, and that can vary wildly from one school to another, even within the same system.

Setting quality aside for a moment, specific training methods themselves can vary widely from one school to another, within the same system.  Every school isn’t run in the same manner.

I am sure you know this.

So yes, training methodology matters.  But I don’t believe it is possible to judge the training methodology of an entire system as “wrong.” Because an entire system doesn’t have a single consistent training methodology.

I am sure you know this as well.

But yes, some schools (TMA or otherwise) use questionable methods and keep the quality bar low.  Again, no surprise there.  News flash: some schools are better than others.  Go figure.


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Some schools have low quality training and instruction, regardless of methodology, and that can vary wildly from one school to another, even within the same system.
> 
> Setting quality aside for a moment, specific training methods themselves can vary widely from one school to another, within the same system.  Every school isn’t run in the same manner.
> 
> ...


This isn’t exactly true.  For example, the training methodology of aikido is grounded firmly in the pacifist philosophy of aikido.  So if you change the training methodology, you do so at the expense of core values within the art.  You are aberrant and are ostracized. 

I am sure you know this. 

So, while there may be some aikido schools with a different training methodology, they are exceptions to a rule.

and as a result, we can discuss aikido training methodology as a whole, while acknowledging that there may be exceptions. 

I am sure you know this, as well.


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## Mider (Aug 31, 2021)

Steve said:


> This isn’t exactly true.  For example, the training methodology of aikido is grounded firmly in the pacifist philosophy of aikido.  So if you change the training methodology, you do so at the expense of core values within the art.  You are aberrant and are ostracized.
> 
> I am sure you know this.
> 
> ...


Not true, not everyone believes Aikido is about pacifism Etc. There are plenty of aikido teachers who train and teach it for real defense


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2021)

Mider said:


> Not true, not everyone believes Aikido is about pacifism Etc. There are plenty of aikido teachers who train and teach it for real defense


I have no doubt they exist.  We have one on this forum, I believe.  But I also think those teachers are exceptions to the rule.  But there's a whole lot of "art of peace" stuff that came from Ueshiba.  

That said, maybe pacifism isn't the right word. How would you characterize the core philosophy of non-violence in Aikido?


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## Mider (Aug 31, 2021)

Steve said:


> I have no doubt they exist.  We have one on this forum, I believe.  But I also think those teachers are exceptions to the rule.  But there's a whole lot of "art of peace" stuff that came from Ueshiba.
> 
> That said, maybe pacifism isn't the right word. How would you characterize the core philosophy of non-violence in Aikido?


I don’t think they are an exception so much as see the methodology different, what’s the point of a martial art if you can’t use it.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2021)

There are approaches and methodologies in training in some martial systems that do not fit the mainstream image of what a martial method looks like, especially for those brought up on a heavy diet of MMA. The system that I train happens to be one of these systems that has an “unusual” look to it.

That is fine.  It simply lies outside the experience for most people, and they won’t understand it through internet discussions.  Perhaps if they took some significant time and trained it with an open mind, they might have a chance at understanding it, even if they ultimately decide it is not the right approach for them.  These systems are often somewhat rare, so most folks never get the chance to do that, even if they manage to open their minds to the experience.

So the bottom line is, there are lots of systems that do train for fighting/combat/self-defensive use, but a lot of people cannot understand how it works and so assume that these are examples of systems that are practiced purely for exercise and “self-improvement”  (whatever that means) and whatnot.

And so we have lots of endless and meaningless debates.


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2021)

Mider said:


> I don’t think they are an exception so much as see the methodology different, what’s the point of a martial art if you can’t use it.


People train for different reasons.  We hear that around here all the time.  But I’m with you.  If you want to learn to fight, you’d hope there’s some fighting going on.


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