# Beginner seeking advice



## VTWalker (Feb 1, 2013)

Greetings to all;
I am an American, but have been living in Turkey for the past 3 years. As there are no W&#304;ng Chun schools anywhere near me, I have been studying  on my own for about 2 months. I have gotten books and have studied many videos and texts.  By researching  and using my best judgement based on the resources available, I have taught myself Siu Lim Tao and practice it every day. I have been following ''W&#304;ng Tsun Kuen'' by Grandmaster Leung T&#304;ng and ''W&#304;ng Chun'' by Grandmaster Ip Chun and Michael Tse for proper forms. I've also been watching videos of Ip Man, Ip Chun and Sam Kwok demonstrating Siu Lim Tao. As I don't have a teacher, I am confused about what else I should be learning as a beginner. Can anyone recommend any additional resources or give advice about what drills I should be doing along with practicing Siu Lim Tao? A breakdown of a syllabus, maybe?  I am doing punching drills, but I feel there must be more I can practice on my own. Though I understand it's essential to have a true Sifu, I'm trying to learn as much as I can until I can find one. Any help would be much appreciated.
 Thank you


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## WingChunIan (Feb 1, 2013)

I would actually encourage you to stop. Find a Wing Chun school (there are some in Turkey but it depends on where you are) or study another martial art. You may well move at some point in your life and find that you are close enough to a Wing Chun sifu to be able to get proper tuition. Although you are training with the best of intentions I can almost garauntee that you will be training in bad habits that if you do get chance to find a teacher will make correct training more difficult.


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## WingChunIan (Feb 1, 2013)

http://www.wingchunturkey.com/
http://www.kwokwingchun.com/clubs/europe-clubs/turkey/

Not my lineage but try these as starting points


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## VTWalker (Feb 1, 2013)

Thank you for your reply, WingChunIan. Although I understand and respect the points you make, I have to admit that I'm quite determined to try and learn what I can. I know I can only learn some basics on my own, but I do believe I can do those basics properly as I'm approaching the subject quite seriously. I'm 36, and I've always been interested in the martial arts. After researching the different styles, I came to the conclusion that Wing Chun was the style I wished to learn. It has been pretty difficult just learning the Siu Lim Tao on my own because I really didn't want to teach myself something improperly. I've read countless times that if your Siu Lim Tao isn't good, then nothing else you do can be good, as it is the most basic form. I've been studying quite intently; I learned to keep the elbows in and to have 'heavy elbows', not raising the shoulders. I learned to keep a straight back with proper pelvic and head/neck positioning. I learned about abdominal breathing. I read about the theories behind the movements and forms and cross-referenced every move between books and videos with the resources I have. I've watched countless videos of the first form and weeded out the ones I thought were too fast or sloppy. I've approached this in as exacting a manner as I can, because when I do something, I have to get it right. Every time I practice the first form, I approach it as intently as I can, trying to make each movement as precise as possible. Now I feel like I don't want to just give it up. I am just requesting information, maybe some videos or books or just the names of some of the basic drills I can learn at this point because I'm guessing a teacher wouldn't just teach Siu Lim Tao without some ways to practice its applications or drills to improve the forms. Thank you again for your reply.
   Oh, and thank you for the links. Admittedly, I have already researched Wing Chun schools in Turkey and they are too far away for my work schedule and finances to allow. For example, the cost of travelling to Istanbul as well as the time it would take to get there and back after lessons is just something that I can't fit around my job, and that's not even counting the cost of the classes themselves.


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## J W (Feb 1, 2013)

VTWalker said:


> It has been pretty difficult just learning the Siu Lim Tao on my own because I really didn't want to teach myself something improperly.



This is not what you want to hear, but unfortunately without a teacher, you WILL teach yourself improperly. I'm personally convinced that it is impossible to learn Wing Chun on your own, no matter how determined you are, and I believe most of the members here agree with me on that. 

Please understand that we get people on this forum quite regularly asking for advice on learning on their own. If you do a search, you will find several threads. The advice is always the same: find a teacher. If that is not possible, just accept that you do not have access to proper Wing Chun instruction and move on to a second choice martial art. 

You can teach yourself all the Wing Chun forms, exercises and techniques that you want, but in the end, without touching hands with experienced Wing Chun practitioners, all you will really be teaching yourself is an incorrect facsimile of Wing Chun. It will not really be Wing Chun.


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## Instructor (Feb 1, 2013)

VTWalker I've sent you a private message.


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## VTWalker (Feb 1, 2013)

Thank you for your reply, J W. Taking your advice into consideration, can you advise a martial art that may have similarities to Wing Chun? I found that Wing Chun seemed to be direct and efficient in its movements.


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## J W (Feb 1, 2013)

First, what is available in your area? There is no point in recomending another martial art that you don't have access to, either. I assume that you have searched schools in your area and may have some idea of what arts are taught nearby. 

Also something to consider- not all teachers advertise. It is always possible that there may be a Wing Chun sifu in your area who doesn't show up in an online search (someone teaching out his home, maybe). You may have to put some extra effort into your hunt to find them.


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## geezer (Feb 1, 2013)

Have you looked on the EBMAS (Emin Boztepe Martial Art Society) website? It lists 11 clubs in Turkey, mostly in various parts of Istanbul, but also Ankara and Eskisehir. Emin comes out of the Leung Ting/Keith Kernspecht lineage and is know for emphasizing practical fighting skills. And I know he travels to Turkey regularly to train his instructors there.


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## jks9199 (Feb 1, 2013)

VTWalker said:


> I know I can only learn some basics on my own, but I do believe I can do those basics properly as I'm approaching the subject quite seriously. I'm 36, and I've always been interested in the martial arts. After researching the different styles, I came to the conclusion that Wing Chun was the style I wished to learn. It has been pretty difficult just learning the Siu Lim Tao on my own because I really didn't want to teach myself something improperly. I've read countless times that if your Siu Lim Tao isn't good, then nothing else you do can be good, as it is the most basic form. I've been studying quite intently; I learned to keep the elbows in and to have 'heavy elbows', not raising the shoulders. I learned to keep a straight back with proper pelvic and head/neck positioning. I learned about abdominal breathing. I read about the theories behind the movements and forms and cross-referenced every move between books and videos with the resources I have. I've watched countless videos of the first form and weeded out the ones I thought were too fast or sloppy. I've approached this in as exacting a manner as I can, because when I do something, I have to get it right.


But how do you know right or wrong?  What qualifies you to assess "too fast" or "sloppy"?  I've got nearly a quarter century of training in martial arts, and I'd have a hard time telling good wing chun from bad wing chun on a video, since I don't train in it.  





> Every time I practice the first form, I approach it as intently as I can, trying to make each movement as precise as possible. Now I feel like I don't want to just give it up. I am just requesting information, maybe some videos or books or just the names of some of the basic drills I can learn at this point because I'm guessing a teacher wouldn't just teach Siu Lim Tao without some ways to practice its applications or drills to improve the forms. Thank you again for your reply.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Danny T (Feb 1, 2013)

VTWalker, I and I'm certain all here appreciate your interest and desire to train in Wing Chun. The advice to not attempt to train on your own has already been given and that is excellent advise. Wing Chun's training method is mostly about 'Feel' rather than seeing what one does. Seeing allows you to have what appears to be a very simple move to a particular position or posture. What CAN NOT be seen is where and how force is being displaced or directed. Is it being directed through the opponent's structure or is it being redirected through your structure. What does it feel like to blend your center of gravity with the opponent's and for his/her movement to become your movement, his/her force to become your force. How much pressure does it take to begin to distort then Wing Chun person's structures and how to maintain or transition the structures without compromising the lines of attack, or without using strength. 

You can watch all the video you wish, you can read all the books you are able to, you can mimic the moves thousands of times, but you can not and will not learn the feel. To know Wing Chun the practitioner must know what the feel is. 

I had a gentleman who lives approx 2 hours away visit two weeks ago. He, like yourself, has no other wing chun available where he lives. He found the video of SLT that is on my website and has been practicing the moves for the past 16 months. He got a wall bag and has been punching and elbowing the bag. (I do truly admire the desire and tenacity) Upon his visit, within less than 5 minutes he stated; "now I understand why everyone says not to train without an instructor. I have never felt anything like this before. Everything looks the same but it is all wrong! And the harder he worked the worse it got. 

I have a tremendous passion for the martial arts, Wing Chun especially and it pains me to tell people to not train it. However, without a qualified instructor you will be wasting most all of your time. You will be doing a dis-service to yourself and to the Wing Chun training methodology. You would be better off learning Tai Chi, or Baqua, or a Filipino Martial Art, if available, to learn some feel and flowing action. Then when a qualified instructor is available you can step into the wing chun world.


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## VTWalker (Feb 2, 2013)

I am very thankful for all the advice from everyone. The links and new information is great; gives me more to look into. I appreciate all your comments. Now I have more research to do! Maybe I just need to try harder to find what I'm looking for. Wish me luck continuing my search for a school/teacher.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 2, 2013)

http://ewingchun.com/schools-list?keys=&field_school_lineage_value=All&country=tr&province=

is the best link I could find. I trained Leung Ting lineage for 7 years. After all the political ******** in the US, I decided to part ways.

Listen up, because the rest of these guys are correct. SNT (siu nim tao/sil lum tao=all the same thing) is great to learn, but every technique has a purpose; When you don't train it correctly you give yourself bad habits. Trust me without a guiding hand, you won't be able to get what you want out of it. Listen to these folks who have done wing tsun for years and years and heed their warning. Reading theory and trying to understand concepts is one thing, but trying to learn how to do WT without someone there to show you what to do is like wiping your but before you poop... It just doesn't help.

All the best in your training,

Jeff


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## VTWalker (Feb 3, 2013)

Greetings, All: 
I have some good news. I found a Wing Chun school relatively close to my town. http://www.wteoturkiye.org/tekirdag-okulu/anasayfa-s111.html It was founded by a gentleman by the name of Salih Avc&#305;, who was apparently a student of Keith Kernspecht, who was a student of Leung Ting. Here's the family tree. http://www.awte.org/index.php?pid=46  I was wondering if anyone knows of him. Also, what should I expect when beginning training/lessons? There is one other thing that concerns me; my Turkish is quite poor, so I may not understand everything the instructor is saying during the lesson. I thought maybe I could record the lesson so my wife could help me translate later. Any opinions on this? I am aware that theory is important, but was hoping anything I didn't immediately understand I could learn later. Your input is greatly appreciated.


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## yak sao (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't know of this particular teacher, but if he's a product of KK, then you have a pretty good chance that he is a quality WT man....KK knows his sruff and produces good WT people.
As for as what to expect, a lot of basics: footwork, stances, punches, learning the various hand posirions, SNT and terminology in Cantonese.
You may also spend a fair amount of time practicing lat sau, which is a series of 2 man drils designed  to help the new student perfect his structire/stance and learn how to use WT in a practical way. You will also learn dan chi sau, which is one armed chi sau.
That is what you can expect for a while....chi sau comes down the road when you get into the CK form.

I'm willing to bet that you've found a good school, there may be a bit of politics to endure ( welcome to the world of WT) and it may be a bit pricey, but it's worth the money if you like what you're doing.

Keep us posted, I'm interested to see how it works out for you.


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## geezer (Feb 3, 2013)

VTWalker said:


> Greetings, All:
> I have some good news. I found a Wing Chun school relatively close to my town. http://www.wteoturkiye.org/tekirdag-okulu/anasayfa-s111.html It was founded by a gentleman by the name of Salih Avc&#305;, who was apparently a student of Keith Kernspecht, who was a student of Leung Ting.



There are a lot of videos of this guy on Youtube. Although they appear to be a mixed bag of good and not so good, I can say this: As far back a 2004 _he appears dressed in the EWTO Master's rank uniform_ with a solid red top and the wider red stripes on his pants. Now he is apparently independent of KK and the EWTO, like so many others these days. 

Regardless, if he actually achieved master or "practition" rank under Keith Kernspecht before breaking off on his own, he would have to be highly skilled. By contrast, I have been in Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun for a very long time, and now realize that I may not reach Master level in this lifetime!




VTWalker said:


> ...my Turkish is quite poor, so I may not understand everything the instructor is saying during the lesson. I thought maybe I could record the lesson so my wife could help me translate later. Any opinions on this? I am aware that theory is important, but was hoping anything I didn't immediately understand I could learn later. Your input is greatly appreciated.



If Sifu Avci and his instructors are good teachers, the language barrier is not an insurmountable problem. When I began studying under LT, his English was somewhat limited, and event more so back in the mid 70's when LT first taught Keith Kernspecht, whose first language is _German_. If you only understand "yes" and "no", "good" "bad", or "like this" and "not like this", it is enough to start. So much of WT/VT/WC is taught through imitation, physical manipulation and feel, that limited language skill can be overcome easily. Good luck in your training.


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## VTWalker (Feb 4, 2013)

Yak Sao,
   Thank you for your response. By the way, what do you mean by politics? I saw one other member of this site mentioning politics, but wasn't sure what he meant. Is it about lineage or proper forms or what?


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## Cyriacus (Feb 4, 2013)

VTWalker said:


> Yak Sao,
> Thank you for your response. By the way, what do you mean by politics? I saw one other member of this site mentioning politics, but wasn't sure what he meant. Is it about lineage or proper forms or what?



Politics can mean alot of things in MA. Basically its the same 'politics' youd find in a stereotypical womens book club, only less sensible.


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## HammockRider (Feb 4, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Politics can mean alot of things in MA. Basically its the same 'politics' youd find in a stereotypical womens book club, only less sensible.



 Funniest thing i've read today!


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Politics can mean alot of things in MA. Basically its the same 'politics' youd find in a stereotypical womens book club, only less sensible.




or in _any_ men's club! :ultracool


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