# Anyone here fail their Black Belt Test?



## Nomad (Apr 30, 2009)

I put this in the karate section because that's what I do, but the question is open to all styles as far as I'm concerned.

Did anyone here fail a test for Black Belt?  Or watch a fellow student fail theirs?

If so, how do/did you feel about it?  

Perhaps I'm coming at this with the blinders of my style, but anyone who tests for black should pass; otherwise they weren't ready to test in the first place.  As the first kyu students get closer and closer to black, they are being constantly "tested" in class to see their progress.  

Although something catastrophic could happen (eg. complete mental blank when they go up), the actual test for black isn't really to see if their technique is good enough; we know that already.  From oral testing, we have an idea of where their minds are.

The real purpose of our black belt test is to give the candidates a platform to show what they can do, and to test them in other ways (eg. testing the spirit by working them to the point of exhaustion and seeing their attitude when asked to do something more).  In a very real way, it's designed to make the candidates believe they've earned it (even though 95% of what goes into earning it happens weeks, months, and years prior to the test).

On this basis, if we say someone's ready to test for their black belt, and they fail, then as the people setting the test, aren't we at least partly to blame for the failure?

Does your dojo take a similar approach?  If not, what are the differences?


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## Blindside (Apr 30, 2009)

Nomad said:


> On this basis, if we say someone's ready to test for their black belt, and they fail, then as the people setting the test, aren't we at least partly to blame for the failure?
> 
> Does your dojo take a similar approach? If not, what are the differences?


 
If you can't fail a test, it ain't a test.  

I have only seen one student fail a brown test, and have voted against two students passing brown tests, though I got outvoted on the board.  I haven't had the "opportunity" to fail a black.  I know that one of my instructors failed his black.  

I wouldn't put a student up to test unless they were ready, but if they then failed, how in the heck is it my fault?  If it was happening regularly it probably speaks to my competance as a teacher, but if it is a rare occurence then I'm going to leave it up to the primary responsible party; the student.


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 30, 2009)

In class I can train well, up to if not beyond the level Im testing for, but during a competition or a grading.it all falls apart. Ive failed two gradings in ten years, one because I was unsure of some moves and one because I was nervous. I absolutely hate grading time, but I know its a necessary evil. Got Yondan in December, so Im training hard right now.


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## terryl965 (Apr 30, 2009)

Well Yes I have and it was not funny at the time but I retested 6 months later and passed. I just did not do enought o earn my adult BB when I was 17. I learn more from that one test than anything else in my life, the thought of not being prepared for everything now just seems silly.


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## jks9199 (Apr 30, 2009)

A good instructor shouldn't put someone up for black belt until the instructor believes that they possess all the tools to succeed and pass the test -- but the test can't be an automatic pass, either.  It's up to the student to show that, under the pressure of the test, they can produce and apply those tools.  If they can't -- then they should fail.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 30, 2009)

No, I didn't fail, but I was completely overwhelmed by the experience and felt throughout that I was doing badly.

So that's the test, I expect. Coming back and back again in the face of my own inadequacy.


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## searcher (Apr 30, 2009)

I did not fail my 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Dan and failed my 4th Dan one time in Chito-ryu.  Did not fail one in Isshin-ryu or TKD.

I have seen several students fail their BB test at varying levels.    I just let them know that it happens and help them with what they did wrong.    It seems that if they know what they did and that it can happen, they come back stronger from it.


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## shihansmurf (May 2, 2009)

No, but I have made the decision to issue a failing grade on a shodan and a nidan grading. The way I conduct things is that by the time I present a student they are more than prepared to test.  Should they fail its because they let the pressure of the test get the better of them and that is what happened to both of these two individuals. They each got so nervous that they forgot major portions of their katas, performed incorrect combinations of basics(they know what combos they will be performing ahead of time), and messed up their one steps ( which they work out ahead of time with partners).

Three months later, in each case, they both re-tested a passed with flying colors. Somedays you just get nervous.

Mark


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## twendkata71 (May 3, 2009)

*I did not fail my shodan test. I have seen others fail, they were just not ready. I more often have seen those testing for higher dan rank fail. Most of the time, they were not ready, either physically ,mentally, or in their level of maturity.*


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## arnisador (May 4, 2009)

Blindside said:


> If you can't fail a test, it ain't a test.



I concur. I have been on a black belt board where we failed a student.

I've been on boards at annual camps where students were just tested and sorted into ranks based on skill. Often an instructor would state that he wanted a black belt for his student, and often we felt a brown belt was what was warranted. It wasn't technically a black belt failure but students often so perceived it.


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## matt.m (May 5, 2009)

I haven't ever failed a test.  However, I am so hard on myself I think to myself "Geez, if I was on the testing panel I would fail myself."  That is just me though.  The time I spent in the Marines wasn't real forgiving in descrepencies of things and attention to detail was a huge deal.


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## Kajowaraku (May 6, 2009)

In genbukan shodan is generally taken by Soke Tanemura, although recently shibucho or higher ranking grades *can* grade shodan tests too. In practice it's almost always with Tanemura sensei, and exceptionally before the shibucho. This means it's not an intra-dojo checktest, and the examinator might play with what you think you have to know. For example having you take the exam with an uke you've never trained with, even if this person is completely unable or unaware of the techniques you have to do. It means you have to know your stuff thoroughly, or risk failure. Generally these exams are quite demanding and quite intense.


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## Stac3y (May 6, 2009)

I failed one section of my first brown belt test (a portion of the self defense), but passed overall because my kata and technique scores were high.


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## Nomad (May 6, 2009)

In our style, the formal test for black belt tends to come after several months of mini-tests, where the instructor or senior students will ask you to perform various aspects for them at different times. This gives a pretty good idea of whether or not the person is "ready" to test formally (knows the material inside and out and can perform it with reasonable accuracy on demand, is able to keep their composure, etc)... if the answer is obviously not, we give some pointers, may have someone work with them for awhile, and come back in a month or two to have another informal look. This process can continue as long as necessary, and the duration is completely up to the individual.

That said, when testing they absolutely could screw it up, whether because of nerves or something else. As examiners (which I've only helped on a couple of times to this point), it's our job to try to bring out their best during the test without going easy on them. So far, I've been fortunate that the people testing have risen to the occasion and given more than most of us thought they were capable of (possibly including themselves). 

Obviously, this would be very different if the testing was done by people who didn't know them as well (ie. outside instructors, etc).


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## Wey (Jun 12, 2009)

In my style, Don Jitsu Ryu, black belt grading is three days long. Even true to the colored belt gradings, they are always unpredictable. Some routines aren't tested, sometimes they are. I have not yet tested for my black belt, but failure is always a possibility. Ultimately it IS up to the individual, but if you don't exactly know what you will be doing, the test can be daunting.


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## phfman (Jun 22, 2009)

No. As instructors we can see when one of our students are ready to test knowledge wise. What we really test for is the student's ability to perform under extreme pressure. This is what separates kyu's from dan's. Almost anyone can master techniques, but in our style a candidate must be at an advanced level physically, mentally, emotionally and also have the maturity to be considered BB material.


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## TKD'oh (Jun 22, 2009)

I've never seen anyone fail a black belt test, but I have seen someone give up.


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## Stac3y (Jun 22, 2009)

I've seen someone fail a brown belt test.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 23, 2009)

Nomad said:


> I put this in the karate section because that's what I do, but the question is open to all styles as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Did anyone here fail a test for Black Belt?  Or watch a fellow student fail theirs?
> 
> ...




I think there are a few variables involved.

1. The student may not be up to testing standards at the time of the test due to several things. Maybe nervous (b.b. test is a big thing), personal life, not able to focus 100% on the goal, etc...

So in those regards I don't feel the Master Instructors are to be blamed or held responsible based on those accounts.

For us the B.B. test was to test the candidate and see if they have the necessary requirements to be considered a b.b.and someone who can represent the Dojo/Dojang on a full term basis. Via comps, teaching, demos, etc...

So I have seen some fail, but generally they were allowed to have a rest & take it again as long as they were aware of the reasons as to why they failed in the 1st place. 

As far as how I felt about it: I felt the Master Instructor(s) took all necessary unbiased precautions at the time of and after the initial judgment as to if the candidate passed or not.

So generally everyone was fully aware previously if they performed poorly or met the standards.


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## hkfuie (Jun 23, 2009)

TKD'oh said:


> I've never seen anyone fail a black belt test, but I have seen someone give up.



The result is the same.  I have seen that, too. 

Someone else's story reminded me of a time (I was about green belt) my instructor asked me to do a difficult jump kick that I had never learned before.  I felt frustrated and discouraged and even angry, but I just did the asked for repetitions very badly.  Later, still angry, I realized that the difficult situation was the test.  I passed the test and no mention was made of how terrible I had done on that one kick.  He just said something to the effect of, "I knew you had not been taught that kick, you know."

I appreciate what I have learned in testing situations.  I remember one of the first things I learned was: in a daunting situation, just do one thing, then do the next thing, just do the thing I need to do now. I have applied that in my life a few times since then.


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## Joab (Jun 23, 2009)

Even Chuck Norris failed his first black belt test in Tang Soo Do because his mind went blank. If Chuck can fail a test, anyone can, after all when Chuck Norris does a push up the Earth moves...


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## seasoned (Jun 23, 2009)

There are a lot of good posts here, and if I am duplicating anyone's comments, sorry. Knowing the material and functioning in class is one thing, but the pressure of going in front of a board of instructors is very much another thing. I remember the first time I stood in front of a class of collage kids, my own age, as a shodan. I almost lost it, talk about pressure testing your art. Once the mind is distracted, all knowledge goes out the window. Generally a Sensei has a pretty good idea if you are ready or not. There is time in grade and then there is time in grade and also being mature, well rounded in the art, and able to teach.


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## Laus (Jun 10, 2010)

I failed my shodan test twice. I posted the story in another section but will recap it here leaving out the parts not relevent to the current topic:

In the year leading up to my mudansha things were becoming difficult for me at my dojo. My sensei became involved with my best friend, I won't bore you with details but I will say it led to her betraying me and to the end of our friendship. She told him some things I should not have said to her (trusting fool that I am) which essentially destroyed my relationship with him. His demands became increasingly unreasonable and he interefed in my personal life to an increasingly inappropriate degree. Also, I had become aware that he and other members of our organization had been involved in some questionable activities which were in direct conflict with my values (and most people's, I would hope) but had no actual verifaction and tried to shrug them off (I would much later discover the legal proof for the one incident, and allegations of many more - the public record is a wonderful thing). 

I had been at the dojo for some 5 years when this started. I'd honeslty never really cared for the man from day one, he was a little too pretentious for my taste, but he had been recommened to me when I moved to that city and after a short time there I saw that the technical aspects of the training were good (this being my second school I had some basis for comparison). Besides, I am a sucker for personal growth through gruelling punishment so I didn't think too much about what a jerk he could be to the senior students. Once it became hard to ignore, I still stuck around through for over a year and a half because I was so close to shodan. 

Anyways, he failed me twice. The first time, he told me I would not pass, but gave me the choice to go anyway, knowing that I would not refuse (could not, being who I am) and calling it a "dry run" (something no one I spoke to in our organization had ever heard of being done, ever, even people who had been there for over a decade). The second time he *demanded* I test even though he explicitly said that he would not pass me even if the rest of the board would. This time I refused, we argued, I ended up going anyways, and he yes, failed me. 

Meanwhile, people who had been training for fractions of the time I had and others who frankly looked terrible both in class and at their tests were being passed - it became clear that my treatment was personal and not related to my ability as a karate-ka. I knew then that it was only a matter of time before I walked away, but I was determined not to throw away six years of training - there was no way this guy was getting away with not giving me my belt, which, by all accounts, I should have had after the second test if not the first. I stuck it out, and I finally *succeeded* on the third attept after a year and a half of hell, probably more because I did so well that third try that even he couldn't really stop the board from passing me this time.

At this point, it seemed our relationship had actually improved, and I would have considered staying there, but other things in my life had changed though and I was already moving to a new city. I was glad we could part ways on a positive note - even if I really couldn't stand the man, I had been with him for 5 years and am not one to hold a grudge if the other party can be reasonable (he would not be). And, the naive little girl that still hides in a small corner of my mind still wanted to believe that the hell was all part of some benevolent master plan to make me a better karate-ka. Not so much.

When I wrote to him after the grading to thank him and let him know I looked forward to visitng when I was in town to receive the belt and participate in the next seminar (as he had invited me to), I expected some nice platidudes and a good luck, and not much else. But, rather than allow our relationship to end quietly he chose to expel me from the organization permanently and publicly, in an email which he also forwarded to the ranking members of the school, many of whom were my friends. He actually *mailed* me the black belt - I guess slapping me in the face by refusing me a ceremony was even better than not giving me the thing at all - though I never did see a certificate. I almost mailed it back to him, but hell, I bled for that thing, so I decided to keep it. 

Anyways, that was some time ago, I am now in a new city at a new dojo (new ryu, also). Assuming I am here long enough (I do move a lot), when the time is right I plan to ask my new Sensei to (re)test me for Shodan as his own student. No matter how much I know I earned the first one, every time I put on that belt it doesn't quite feel right.


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## kungfu penguin (Jun 11, 2010)

i have seen a black belt fail after using profanity  and the tester gave him a real hard test and then failed him   i have witnessed dozens of tests where they should have failed  but were passed.  i have seen a belt stripped from a 3rd degree  the master was so angry  i was scared  and i was not the one being stripped of my rank   hopefully a teacher knows how the student should do before a test  and then test them  but i have seen surprise BB tests  and i think they are plain cruel if they go over 2 hours   a person does need time to gather their focus  to take a real long test  just my 2 cents


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## girlbug2 (Jun 11, 2010)

Wow Laus that must have been sheer hell! I'm glad you finally passed your test.


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## Victor Smith (Jun 11, 2010)

Hi Laus,

I'm extremely sorry for what you were put through. Unfortunately this is the third story I know of this happening and they almost could each come from the same script. I only know the stories third hand, but it is one of the reasons I feel karate could be and perhaps should be banned, and I'm not picking on karate, I have similar stories from so many arts and human activities that it makes me question who is in charge.

Any instructor who abuses a student, physically, mentally or spiritually IMO deserves to be stripped of the position, regardless of rank or skill they possess, and any organization that looks the other way should likewise be disbanded.

But the truth is rank and organizations are mostly a sham, and 'professional' instructors (female and male) sitting around in their dojo all day are prone to believe they are masters and have the authority to push situations such as you describe.

The only professional code of conduct that should be followed, even if you teach tiddlywinks, is that "*I will cause no harm to my students forever, and as they are my students I will not allow myself to enter their personal lives beyond the dojo.*"

Unfortunately this is not followed in too many cases.

I fear, one day some news organization looking for a story will collect all the stories of abuse that are documented and show the public the history of what occurs... abuse, pediphilia, cult behavior, etc. don't paint a pretty picture. It doesn't represent most of the arts, but there have been enough cases if pulled together none of us could show there is any way to stop it, and logic should ban MA existence.

In my time I'm aware of dozens of stories that show the same.

I try hard to make all of my long term students not willing to accept anyones pressure, alas even to not following me at times. The price of freeing their minds.

Extremely disturbing.

Back to topic, I've never put anyone up for sho-dan examination who wasn't prepared to succeed. They could of course freeze or forget and not pass, but that hasn't happened.

I think having someone test who isn't prepared is a bad excuse of instruction.


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## Laus (Jun 11, 2010)

Yeah he's the kind of guy who needs to own the women who train under him. I'm not the first he's done something like this to, though I may be the most extreme case yet. Not a lot of women stick around there long enough to get to Shodan, most that do leave as soon as they have the belt around their waist. He has two female Senpais that won't blink without his permission, both in and outside the dojo - they literally run every decision by him, from where they live to how to go about a new business endeavour. I found it very disturbing especially as they consider themselves "strong women," and I looked up to them for years until I saw what was really going on. Now I just feel a combination of pity and disgust.

I don't know why I stuck around for that long, everything about that place offends my sense of decency. I suppose I don't like losing, and forcing him to eventually give me the belt when I knew he didn't want to was my own victory, however small. As for the expulsion, I think it was just his way of getting the last word. I was leaving anyway, there was no need to kick me out. I guess he doesn't like losing either, and couldn't believe that I really was going to just walk away, belt in hand, after all the effort he put into trying to break me. Guess I should have told him - nobody owns me.

It's too bad that so many schools are so badly run. Karate can be a wonderful thing if the people teaching it aren't corrupt, narcissistic hypocrites. When I was researching the allegations against this particular organization I came across a lot of similar tales. One in particular I rememeber was a book called "Herding the Moo: Exploits of a Martial Arts Cult." I never did read it, but the synopsis certainly was a familiar story.


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## KenpoVzla (Jun 12, 2010)

Martial arts tests are more of a formality, you're more or less passed when you go to the test. At least from the schools I've been to, it's been this way. That's why the instructor asks you to test at this particular date of for this particular level.

So no, It's not an actual test like a university/college test might be.

The test does allow for :



Review on student's performance on pressure type situations.


Focus with undivided attention on the student's technique.
Make notes on weaknesses so that the student can correct it once at his/her new belt level.
Testing physical abilities and examining where the student stands.
The test can also allow the instructor to determine where on that passing level he/she is.


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 21, 2010)

Nomad said:


> I put this in the karate section because that's what I do, but the question is open to all styles as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Did anyone here fail a test for Black Belt? Or watch a fellow student fail theirs?


 
My instructor doesn't let people test unless he knows they are ready. That cuts down a lot on people failing. 

I will say, however, that if you do well on every part of the test except one or perhaps two he will sometimes have you wait a period of time while you work on those areas and then "re-test" on those specific areas. I saw one gentleman test for 1st dan many years ago and he didn't do so great on two of his patterns. He waited for a few months and performed them to demonstrate to people that he had gotten them down. He was then awarded his official rank certificate. There have also been a couple times where people weren't successful on their breaking and had to redo that at a later date. Again, rank certificates were given out when they had completed this requirement.

My instructors told me about a test they both attended a couple years ago where people didn't pass. It was a test for senior black belts and two of the people who were testing failed; one was going for 4th dan and one for 7th. Basically, they weren't prepared. 

Like with my instructor's students they were retested at a later date (and passed). 



> If so, how do/did you feel about it?


 
No one is going to be 100% every day. If you're going to have a test where it's possible that people will fail then I think retesting on those portions they did poorly on instead of the entire test is fine. That being said, when my instructor tells me to get ready to test I _get ready_ to test! I've had a couple tests where I've made some errors which were big enough for me to pick up onat the time but, fortunately, I've not been told I'd have to retest on them at a later date. 



> Perhaps I'm coming at this with the blinders of my style, but anyone who tests for black should pass; otherwise they weren't ready to test in the first place.


 
That is one philosophy, and I can certainly understand it. My own instrucors have gotten pretty close to that these days, in fact. They told me a story a while ago about their own instructor. He came in to test some of their students - including some they didn't think were ready but who told them they wanted to sit for the test anyway. Well, of course, they all did. They asked him about it later and he told them basically that if they didn't think someone was ready for the next rank they shouldn't let them test. 

It's simply a matter of knowing what each party involved is expecting and how theyview the test. 



> As the first kyu students get closer and closer to black, they are being constantly "tested" in class to see their progress.


 
This should be happening with all students, regardless of rank, IMNSHO. 



> The real purpose of our black belt test is to give the candidates a platform to show what they can do, and to test them in other ways (eg. testing the spirit by working them to the point of exhaustion and seeing their attitude when asked to do something more). In a very real way, it's designed to make the candidates believe they've earned it (even though 95% of what goes into earning it happens weeks, months, and years prior to the test).


 
You could say this about pretty much any rank test, though, not just dan level ones. 



> On this basis, if we say someone's ready to test for their black belt, and they fail, then as the people setting the test, aren't we at least partly to blame for the failure?


 
Only if your school or instructor holds to that philosophy. Some schools have different views.

Pax,

Chris


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## Stac3y (Jul 21, 2010)

Just reading about this gives me the willies, as I'll be testing next month. Eek.

We had someone fail last year. This person obviously didn't take to heart the information we're given (that's pounded into our heads, really) about preparing for the test. In our school, we "declare" our intentions about 8 months before the test--long enough to remediate any minor problems and get conditioned to take the test (it's long and grueling--a "trial by fire" type). So the instructors who sign off on the paperwork are basically saying that the person is at the point where s/he can succeed with reasonable work. If that person then decides to mess around and not work hard, s/he could fail; and even if the instructor tells the student that s/he isn't ready when the test nears, s/he can go on and test if s/he chooses not to listen. That could lead to failure, too.


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## Blade96 (Jul 22, 2010)

Geez Laus. Thats awful!

I know some of people in my dojo who failed one test or another - kyus and dans. One of my Senpai's told me the night i passed my yellow belt test that he failed his when he was a little white belt testing. And some who never failed any of them.


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## Gruenewald (Jul 23, 2010)

I've never taken a black belt test before, but on the subject of freezing up/having a mental block during a grading... A lot of the people in my judo class, especially the harder workers that often go into gradings alongside myself are criticized (not overtly, just in passing near the end of the grading) about their stiffness and overall anxiety. However at my most recent test (nikyu) I was shocked and delighted to hear my sensei mention that in contrast, gradings seemed to be "just another walk in the park" for me. I used to get pretty anxious at times (mostly during competition but also during gradings) and hearing that was quite encouraging; I feel like I've made progress not just in the art but as a person as well.

Personally I do agree with the notion that a test isn't a test unless it's possible to fail. Your instructor can help you along the way, but once you're in there I think it should be up to you to bridge the gap. That having been said, in my experience being graded/watching gradings I think my sensei always has a pretty good idea of whether or not he's going to pass somebody beforehand, barring some unforeseen circumstance. He uses gradings as an opportunity to see what precisely is lacking in our technique and then aims future classes towards bettering everybody's weaknesses which I tend to like.


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## etali (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm still a brown belt, but I know several people who have failed their black belt test in my style.

The way my style does it, the Kyu grading tests are pretty easy - they're more a roadmap of "learn this", then "OK, now learn that....".  It's rare for people to fail them, but there are degrees of pass - A 1st degree pass means you're doing exceptionally well, a 2nd means you're where you should be for the belt you just tested for, and a 3rd indicates that you have some remedial work to do.

As I understand it, when you go for your black belt, you either perform at 1st degree level all the way through, or you fail.   There are three 1st Dan tests per year, and one test per year for people taking higher Dan grade tests.  If you fail your Dan grading, you're allowed to re-test at no extra charge.

A lot of people do fail.  The standards are incredibly high.  To my eye (I'm only a brown belt so take the assessment for what you wish), the standard of the coloured belts varies quite a lot (especially 3rd Kyu and lower), but all of the black belts show skill, speed, power, and technique.  

You have to be invited to take your Dan grading, but the person who sends out the invitations is the head of the style. If he sees you regularly, he can make a good assessment of when you'll be ready, but there are some people that he only sees at gradings, and the occasional seminar.  For those people, he has to make an educated guess, and he'll usually err on the side of allowing someone to try their best - after all, if they can achieve the standard required, why not - and if they can't, at least they will have learned something by trying.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Aug 6, 2011)

Nobody so far in my class failed their Black Belt grading. How my school does it is that candidates go through a 4 month training period of cardio training, lots of basics and kata practice, studying bunkai and writing out an essay. Technically I had a couple of drop outs. One in 2005 when we had only one candidate training for black belt at that time quit. And last year we had 3 candidates training for black belt to begin with, and one quit because by some silly excuse, this guy was expecting an easy ride to get his black belt since his mother helps out with the office work. In my mind, the only way to fail a black belt grading is quitting your training period.


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