# a JKD'ers take on Muay Thai roundkick



## cfr (Jun 7, 2005)

Ive recently talked to a couple of JKD guys in regards to Muay Thai. Both of them said they see awesome atributes to the art, especially in they're training styles. But both claimed the same thing. That the Thai round kick is fairly easy to see coming and defend against. Now for the record, both have trained in Muay Thai, and also said they would certainly not want to be kicked by one. I'd never thought much about it before now. Whats your take on it? The two guys mentioned dont know each other or come from the same JKD linage, which made it all that more interesting.

Aside from the "they dont do groundwork" or "they dont do weapons", what other problems do you JKD'ers see with Muay Thai? Ive always been very impressed with it, just looking for your point of view.


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## arnisador (Jun 7, 2005)

We use the Muay Thai round kick where I study JKD. The criticisms are valid, but it is nonetheless a good tool for controlling range, and I make heavy use of it.

Muay Thai is a sport and so beyond not using weapons and not doing groundwork, I'd add that they don't train to defend weapons or multiple person attacks. Of course, both of those are tough situations for any martial artist, so it's hard to say what the net effect of that is.

Be that as it may, Muay Thai is an incredibly effective system--I assume because of the harsh conditioning and constant live training.


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## Gary Crawford (Jun 8, 2005)

I definatly use the muay thia round kick.  I also agree that it is hard to just slip in quickly without telegraphing.  I consider it a "put away" tool. On defending against it: The best way is to simple not be there when it lands.  It can be blocked,but there is usually a price to pay if you do because it hits so damn hard.  The first jkd guy I trained with uses it allot and I have learned to block it with my shin or knee when I can't get out of it's way. He usually waited until I was getting tired and lazy before attempting it.


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## Flatlander (Jun 8, 2005)

My feeling is that Muay Thai does have a ton of good ideas, great training methodologies, and some really effective tools and techniques.  From a JKD perspective, I see no problems with the art at all.  Given that a core philosophy of JKD is to take that which is useful, I've taken much from Muay Thai in terms of the parts that I have been exposed to.  Muay Thai isn't comprehensive?  That's no problem for me, I don't do Muay Thai.  I do, however, use that parts of it that I can - particularly the elbows, knees, and headbutts.


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## The Kai (Jun 8, 2005)

Ripping a Round kick to the thigh has the immediate and obvious advantage, hurts like hell, disrupts stance blah blah

However(IMHO) even when the kicks misses (due to other guy slipping or what not) the other advantage it has is that it tends to strech the other guys defenses and vision.  He can no longer just watch the high/medium line.  Like in Football a great passing game needs an effective running game to tighten up the other sides defense/or when the defense is streached out in anticapation of a ground assualt the quarterback opens up


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## Jonathan Randall (Jun 9, 2005)

cfr said:
			
		

> Ive recently talked to a couple of JKD guys in regards to Muay Thai. Both of them said they see awesome atributes to the art, especially in they're training styles. But both claimed the same thing. That the Thai round kick is fairly easy to see coming and defend against. Now for the record, both have trained in Muay Thai, and also said they would certainly not want to be kicked by one. I'd never thought much about it before now. Whats your take on it? The two guys mentioned dont know each other or come from the same JKD linage, which made it all that more interesting.
> 
> Aside from the "they dont do groundwork" or "they dont do weapons", what other problems do you JKD'ers see with Muay Thai? Ive always been very impressed with it, just looking for your point of view.


It's a tool, like anything else, and has to be used at the appropriate time. Probably not a great lead technique, but as another poster mentioned, a great finishing technique.

I also think its great in a crowd where, if a situation starts where you are close in, such as a store line, if you look at their upper body and not at their target area, you can end the situation really quickly, IMHO.

As far as problems with MT? I think its a great stand up art. If you want to get up to speed on good standup work my first thoughts of arts to look into usually are Western Boxing, Muay Thai, or Wing Chun. I think that anyone who spends more than a little time in any of these three arts would be a formidable street opponent. I had a female Thai coworker who knocked a man out with a MT elbow after he grabbed her from behind and threw her onto the ground - so I wouldn't say that they don't have any tools for the ground. I think her year or two of lessons from an older brother into Muay Thai paid her pretty rich dividends.


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## striker (Jun 9, 2005)

In silat we take the best weapons of other arts,example ,JKD foot work,Muay thai round house kick,elbows,knees and headbutts and so forth.The round house is one of our primary learnt and most practiced kicks therefore I feel it can be used as an initial attack,at the end or anywhere in between a confrontation.If used with a fient it would be hard to see coming so it really depends on the person throwing the kick.As most of us know,It can be fast and it can be powerful!!!


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## DeLamar.J (Jun 15, 2005)

Who cares if you can see the thai kick comming. What I like to do sometimes is spar with people who say things like , (hey I could see that a mile away) and say ok lets go, why dont you go ahead and block it so I can break your arm or your shin when you try. 
Just because you can see it comming dont mean you can block it. I have seen guys get there arms cracked by a fighter with conditioned shins.


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## Drag'n (Jun 16, 2005)

I do more MT than anything else.I find the MT kick to be extreamly powerfull and effective, but it also has some flaws that you have to take into consideration when using it.
1: It can tend to be easily telegraphed.Especially when thrown from the lead leg with a switch step. You have to really work on the switch step to get it short and fast. 
Also you generally dont want to just throw the kick by itself. Always set it up with feints or punches, or use it to close in to set up your punches.Or throw it as a counter.
2: If you miss it can leave you in a vulnerable position.
3: The mid level kick can be caught, which can lead to getting taken to the ground .You see this happen alot in MMA fights.Be carefull when fighting grapplers. 
4: If your shins aren't really well conditioned you can end up hurting yourself rather than your opponent.Especially if he block swith his shin on that hard knot just below the knee, or with an elbow to your instep.


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 10, 2005)

Back when I was in Amercian TKD/Karate I incorperated the MT round kick in our sparring and I loved it.  Even though it could be telegraphed if used right, by setting it up with something else or by diminishing the other guy first so they defended slower I felt it worked great.

In Tulsa OK back in 1990 I saw a great fight between a Thai Boxer from Thailand and a Shootboxer from OK City (I think).  In it the Thai Boxer for three rounds round kicked the Shoot fighter's lead leg.  Awesome power I honestly couldn't see how the guy came out of the corner in round three.

However in round three the Shoot fighter started trying to drop his lead hand to block the kick.  The Thai boxer got him use to trying to block the kick and then kicked high to the jaw.  The kick landed and picked the guy up off his feet and he was out cold I think before he hit the map.  I don't think he ever saw it coming, and that to me was a perfect example of how the kick was to be used.

Mark


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## Blindside (Jul 10, 2005)

What I find interesting about the thai kick is that it telegraphs differently than a TKD/karate type kick.  I have landed the kick on experienced karate/tkd folks simply because it doesn't trigger the cues that they are used to, heck I've landed it in a point-fighting match of all places.  Great kick, great weapon for the aresenal.

Lamont


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## arnisador (Jul 10, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> What I find interesting about the thai kick is that it telegraphs differently than a TKD/karate type kick. I have landed the kick on experienced karate/tkd folks simply because it doesn't trigger the cues that they are used to


 Yeah, it's almost like in Dune--"The slow blade penetrates." It really is an unwieldy kick in some ways, and yet it gets in!


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## makoto-dojo (Jul 11, 2005)

Hello,

Jun Fan, the art left to us by Sifu Bruce, has some elements of Muay Thai. But those continuing on with the JKD Concept (I am speaking from the perspective of the Inosanto lineage) often study Muay Thai on it's own as part of their cross training applying the concept of absorb what is useful.

Muay Thai is much more than the Teh (round kick) they have great use of elbows that blend right into the kali panantukan, and bando elbows. It flows right into the jun fan trapping. They have allot of great inside work (standing grappling) The plum tie up position drills are very useful and again blend with greco roman and jun fan.

The knees come from different angles and have different drills and generate power in a unique way. Basically as far as kicks they have teep and teh (push kick and round kick) but they deliever them in a variety of interesting ways, many times following P.I.A. The fakes and combinations are very good.

Many things have improved jun fan as a direct result of cross training in muay thai. The pendulum step for instance, the jeet tek to the knee of the kick, these were things sifu Brue did, but later Sifu Inosanto found were not the best idea against a muay thai man. In regards to the jeet tek against the kick, Sifu Inosanto found it worked better if you put it on the thigh or hip or stomach, because a thai man can fake the teh, then go under your jeet tek sweeping your legs out. It should be noted that the Thais have the same concept of jeet tek.

The last thing I will add is that the conditioning and training methods are of great value. Once understood the concepts can be used to train a variety of other arts.

As always it is the man more than the system too.

These are just my opinions, best taken with a grain of salt..


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## Flatlander (Jul 11, 2005)

I find utility in the deceptiveness of the MT round kick delivery. You can bring it midline or chop it down lowline, and postpone the choice to do either until right before you blast with it.  Very few power kicks allow for this.


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## KyleShort (Jul 18, 2005)

A cherry kick when your hands have connected with your opponent's.  In a "street" altercation this kick can be very easy to pull off when you are close enough that your opponent is only watching your upper body and dealing with your arms & head.  

I like it delivered to the mid calf or knee rather than the thigh if you really want to drop them from the clinch.


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## hwarang (Jul 18, 2005)

I beleive that the round kick is a very useful tool. in the dojo im a headhunter, but in real life never above the waist. use the round kick to hurt the legs, one good shot the the pressure point above the knee and your opponent probably wont be using that leg and fighting with one leg is real hard lol


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## FMA_Brian (Aug 6, 2005)

I _love_ this kick.  I'd take it to the prom if I could 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I honestly use this kick as 75% of my kicking game.  Like all techniques it does need a set-up to land.
 My fav set-ups for a rear round

switch step (turns lead into rear) don't move your upper body and it barely telegraphs.   
Step to a side to get you hips moving.  This is awesome when a hi-line cross is thrown at you.  A right cross comes to your left parry it inside w/ your left hand, step left (pointing your left heel at your target) then let your right shin do the talking to the mid-section or leg (avoid hi-line here since the angel of your kick will hit the front of their body and you don't want to feed a kick right to their arm to be caught)  It also can be done after a shin block (step the blocking leg out and kick)   
Jab-R.Cross.R.Round As soon as your right hand strikes leave it there as the R.Round leaves the ground then retract it sharply as you're about 30-50% done w/ the kick.  This leaves your hand in their vision at the best time to jam your kick. 
 This kick isn't invulnerable though.  It requires an open stance (can't do it from an L type stance w/ power and speed), you need to condition your shin and you loose a couple of inches in range vs. a instep round house (but you won't break your foot).  Something cool and little known is you _do not_ need to spin around if you miss (common misconception); if you miss tuck your knee up into a shin block.  You won't spin then and you'll cover.

 my two cents on an awesome tool to add to your training

 -Brian


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## achilles (Aug 7, 2005)

I personally don't like the switch step kick much because it seems like a lot of preparation before you get to the kick, i.e. pulling your leg backward before you actually send it to the target.  It seems pretty telegraphic and indirect.  It may have a place when you don't have to worrry about giving your kick away, and with the right attributes I know it can be effective, but I opt for the o'ou tek more frequently.


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## FMA_Brian (Aug 8, 2005)

achilles said:
			
		

> I personally don't like the switch step kick much because it seems like a lot of preparation before you get to the kick, i.e. pulling your leg backward before you actually send it to the target. It seems pretty telegraphic and indirect. It may have a place when you don't have to worrry about giving your kick away, and with the right attributes I know it can be effective, but I opt for the o'ou tek more frequently.


 Gotta resepctfully disagree since I too thought that until I really began to work it.  Try it while stalking you opponent.  It is much easier to hid the telegraph then(while moving).  Also a lead kick is a little bit unexpected; people become fixated on the rear power leg.  Give it a whirl 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Brian


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2005)

cfr said:
			
		

> Aside from the "they dont do groundwork" or "they dont do weapons", what other problems do you JKD'ers see with Muay Thai? Ive always been very impressed with it, just looking for your point of view.


I think the important thing to remember is to recognize Muay Thai for what it is: a hard-hitting sport.  As a sport, it is subject to certain rules, and so concentrates on techniques that are effective under those rules.  This doesn't mean that Muay Thai techniques can't be used on the street in a self-defense situation. To the contrary, I think one of the strengths of Muay Thai is in how hard they train for the full-contact.  They really train their techniques to be used.  I think on the street, they could be fearsome opponents.

But as a sport, they do not focus on things like joint locks and other open hand techniques, and they seem to have a limited kicking repertoire.  Of course, all you need is three or four techniques that you are really good at, and you can probably take care of yourself pretty well. 

My comments are based on witnessing a series of Muay Thai competitions when I was in Thailand about a year ago.  These were not National level competitions, but were some pretty decent regional level.


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## tradrockrat (Sep 29, 2005)

FMA_Brian said:
			
		

> Gotta resepctfully disagree since I too thought that until I really began to work it. Try it while stalking you opponent. It is much easier to hid the telegraph then(while moving). Also a lead kick is a little bit unexpected; people become fixated on the rear power leg. Give it a whirl
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Bingo!!!!  Give the man a cigar.  I very specifically used to use the switch to _hide_ my kick.  The most awesome aspect of the shinbone kick is that unless your opponent does avoid it entirely, damage is done.  Even another Thai fighter doesn't want too many kicks to connect.

 I remember a fight between Rick Rufus and a Thai fighter that ended with the world champion Rufus running around the ring trying to avoid the kick with both hands covering his thigh.  He was eventually carried out of the ring.  

 It's a great tool to develop. Also, remember that on the street, many people will have had very little real experience with an opponent that kicks and kicks hard.  They may see it coming, but they very well may not know enough to get out of the way.  In that case, it doesn't matter if he sees it coming.


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## cfr (Oct 4, 2005)

As fate would have it, someone tried a rear leg MT kick on me sparring the other night and I blocked it with my knee. I was very happy, he was very sad.  artyon: I have no doubt this wouldnt work every time, but it was a great experience. (For me.)


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## arnisador (Oct 5, 2005)

If it works, it works! Yes, a block like that can really hurt the kicker!


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 5, 2005)

I tried a knee block like that against a back kick last week...

 ...didn't work, my positioning was just a little off and got hit hard on the inner thigh with his heel.


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