# RyuShiKan - Hero or Zero?



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

Based on several recent issues, I've decided to break with SOP here, and ask the members their opinions.

The results of this will not effect policy, or the like, but is simple being done outta curiosity.


RyuShiKan, a karate instructor in Japn feels he has the right to 'bust' fraud and do and say whatever he feels necessary, whereever he feels it neccessary to do so.

Some find his methods and zelotry to be a bit much.  To others, he is a voice of reason and sanity.

I'm personally curious.  Whats your opinion?

I'm specifically asking this as myself, -not- in any official manner whatso ever.

So, cast your vote.  Is he a zero, or a hero?  Is it a little of both, or, am I just an idiot?

Poll runs for 72 hours.
:asian:


----------



## RCastillo (Jun 16, 2003)

Not very friendly, is a zealot, and he'd certainly drive me away.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *  RyuShiKan, a karate instructor in Japn feels he has the right to 'bust' fraud and do and say whatever he feels necessary, whereever he feels it neccessary to do so. *



Thanks for clarifying that for me Hubbard.I am glad your Admin powers can reach into not only my thoughts but my motives. 

Of course this poll doesn't have a thing to do with me asking one of your Moderators about certain "questionable" aspects of his style..........nah couldn't possibly be connected in any way shape or form.

Have I ever posted something that was untrue on this board? No
Ever lied about my training or rank? No
Ever made some outrageous claim? No

Have I proven others have done the above.most assuredly YES.

Do I enjoy it? Not at all.

The reason why I have brought certain things to light about peoples claims and so on is I refuse to sit by while someone makes outright nonsensical statements/claims/uses Japanese improperly etc.....

How about we crank up another little pollwe could ask members what they think of your character/honor concerning 2 certain emails you sent me giving your wordnot once but twice that if a certain troll/member was found to have double accounts he would be banned from this forum..when said troll/member was found to have 2 accounts you quickly reneged on your word. You lost not only my respect for you but showed you have no Honor

Oddly enough I was the one that found out he had two accounts and proved it to you. And I still see his account is active because he lurks here from time to time.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 16, 2003)

He comes across as a bad boy only because the "rules" allow for frauds to carry as much weight, or more, when posting...

He has been suspended for pointing out TRUTH, while the fraud was allowed to stay on the boards for an additional week...

I am tired of sparring with the frauds, so I ignore them...but I hold no grudge against RSK because of his tenacity.

If I chose to leave this website, it would be because of the garbage that is allowed to go unchallenged...it would not be because someone who has a great deal of experience can smell "bad fish" and has the balls to say so...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

RSK is simple, direct, and straightforward

I would much rather have him than even one of the frauds running around.  It seems as though we all have to welcome the frauds and pretend as if everything is okay.


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh (Jun 16, 2003)

Personally, I've got no problem with him.  RyuShiKan may be a bit abrasive at times, but I've never seen him successfully contradicted on matters of fact.  As a general rule, I value the acquisition of knowledge over polite discourse (good thing, too- I've learned a lot over the years from "salty" people).  And when RyuShiKan posts his opinion, I figure he has as much right to it as I  have to mine.  Anyone who feels flamed has a right to respond.

While I might not think of him as a person to have over for a pleasant chat, if I have a question about Japanese martial arts or related topics, RyuShiKan is the first person who comes to mind.

Just my opinion.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

I was curious.

It has nothing to do with harrasing a 'mod', but a member.  Our mods are also members, and as such are due the same courtacies.


My opinion is, he doesn't matter either way.

He has driven away a large number of people due to his vendettas.

I'm not aware of a single person who has come here specifically because of him. (Our referer system indicates 0 for him)

Of all of our current members, he is the most 'labor intensive'.

We get a report from him on almost -every- thread where someone disagrees with him, usually refering to the other person as a troll.

His manners as a guest here leave alot to be desired.


Now, on the plus side, thanks to him:
I've almost memorized Sharp Phils troll guide. 
I've found several good references to learning Japanese
I've found my stones have an admirer, though he still hasn't paid for the autographed picture of them.



When the time comes to boot him, I expect a few folks to quit in a huff.  That is their choice.  My goal is the long term stability of this site.  That can not be achieved while Torquemada here leads an Inquisition on everyone and anyone who he feels like.  We worked with him and a few others on putting in place a system for fraud busting, but he cant even follow that system.  
He can always go to the fraudbuster boards and go gangbusters.  I've seen a few of our former members over there, 'platnium angel', 'carbon' for example.  He can join them, complain how we are so stupid, and bust til he's giggly.

And, who knows.  Roberts departure from E-budo doesn't appear to have hurt them at all.  Purhaps, by removing the inquisition, other karateka will step up and post more, unafraid of any mis-que leading to a 20 thread, 300 post high-speed chase by the Grand Inquisitor.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I was curious.
> 
> It has nothing to do with harrasing a 'mod', but a member.  Our mods are also members, and as such are due the same courtacies.
> ...




For someone who is just "curious" you seem to be trying your darndest to swing the vote in the negative with all your snide comments about me.
Is that your idea of "impartial"?


----------



## Master of Blades (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *For someone who is just "curious" you seem to be trying your darndest to swing the vote in the negative with all your snide comments about me.
> Is that your idea of "impartial"? *



I do not really see Kaiths comments as trying to swing the votes but more as another side to the story. If he is trying to swing the votes by adding his views, then surely all those who have said nice things about you are trying to swing the votes as well? *TO ME* thats the only way your theory would make sense. 

Personally, I do not really care much for how you deal with things, and the manner in which you do it. I do however like you as a person, although we have never really spoken I can at least tell your honest and straightforward...that doesnt however, mean you can be rude and pester people just to find out a bit of information. Sure you havnt been wrong yet (*THAT I* know of) but whats to say you wont be in the future. In a friendly place like this your methods do not excactly fit in and thats probably why I dislike them. *IN MY OPINION* and *TO ME* you leaving would not have much of impact, to others, it might. But I really think its all about playing by the rules and being nice about it all.

But heck what do I know...

Goes back into hiding


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

Did I say I was impartial here?

This is -my- opinion Robert.  I'm allowed to have one, I just voice it infrequently.

I have both said "boot the SOB" and "No, he's got some good stuff to contribute".

This is my opinion, not official MT policy.

For the slow reader out there, again, 

Robert,    this    is    my   opinion   which  I  am   allowed   to   have.


Did ya get that?


*Have a nice day*.
 


Other folks can voice their opinions or vote or PM.  Some folks may prefer to do neither, and some may prefer to keep anonymous given recent claims of obsene harrasing emails from you.  Me, I just dump em into /dev/null.


----------



## Jill666 (Jun 16, 2003)

My vote (probably predictably so) was the pain in ***/but valuable option.

I'm not a patient woman, and digging through lots of verbiage isn't my idea of a good time- also I find I get stuck reading threads that often amount to pissing contests since often there is good info buried in the aforementioned verbiage. 

There are many here who are pleasant and friendly but haven't contributed too much in the way of info- well that's ok I fit in that category I suppose. There are many here who are unpleasant and contribute nothing. You can find them on my ignore list, along with a couple of BS artists. 

I come here primarily for info and different points of view- and often I'll find just that. I don't know if I would like Robert in person, and don't care. But I do know I'll read what he (and some others) posts. 

My 2 cents, since you asked.


----------



## RCastillo (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *I do not really see Kaiths comments as trying to swing the votes but more as another side to the story. If he is trying to swing the votes by adding his views, then surely all those who have said nice things about you are trying to swing the votes as well? TO ME thats the only way your theory would make sense.
> 
> Personally, I do not really care much for how you deal with things, and the manner in which you do it. I do however like you as a person, although we have never really spoken I can at least tell your honest and straightforward...that doesnt however, mean you can be rude and pester people just to find out a bit of information. Sure you havnt been wrong yet (THAT I know of) but whats to say you wont be in the future. In a friendly place like this your methods do not excactly fit in and thats probably why I dislike them. IN MY OPINION and TO ME you leaving would not have much of impact, to others, it might. But I really think its all about playing by the rules and being nice about it all.
> ...



Wait, come back!!!:wah:


----------



## Disco (Jun 16, 2003)

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. This forum is a venue to voice said opinions. At least that is my understanding. There is however limits on the extent, or there should be, on how far and intense something should be allowed to continue. 

Now for MY personal opinion. First for Mr. R. I guess I read things differently than other people. There were many posts that I felt were contradictional in nature, along with other aspects of conduct. Again, MY opinion. Your viewpoints are just that, your viewpoints. Somehow you've been elevated to high priest status, not of your own doing I concur, but none the less profiled as such.
You seem to relish this lofted position (understandable), and do the utmost to sustain the position. We, the general forum are at fault for this, my self included. Many of us sat back and did not voice any position, pro or con, to the major discourse that was unfolding. We can't change what has happened and we can't change the tigers stripes. We either accept things the way they are or just avoid the tiger all together. 

Now for Mr. H. It's your house and your rules. If someone runs afoul of said rules, they deal with the punishment. With that said, someone who has been subjected to periods of being banned, has requested termination of account and is still here, I find that confusing. MY opinion, either accept or reject. Don't sit on the fence. I'm assuming this thread was established to offer some validation for a position your perplexed with. Forget us, go with your own feelings on the matter. 

AGAIN, my personal opinion. I hold no animosity to either party. 
 :asian:


----------



## RCastillo (Jun 16, 2003)

This is some heavy stuff here, as Cheech, and Chong would say. Some days , it just don't pay to get outta bed, and be the Emperor! The subjects are restless, Lord Sidious, take a vacation, and let the other Mods take the flack for a bit?:wavey:


----------



## brianhunter (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Thanks for clarifying that for me Hubbard.I am glad your Admin powers can reach into not only my thoughts but my motives.
> 
> Of course this poll doesn't have a thing to do with me asking one of your Moderators about certain "questionable" aspects of his style..........nah couldn't possibly be connected in any way shape or form.
> ...



Theres the witch!!! Burn him!!! No theres the witch! burn her!!! the "fraud busting" reminds me of a witch hunt from time to time and gets a little old, my experience is the one who screams the loudest about being the only one telling the truth usually isnt or they have deeper issues envolved! Ive seldom spoke up on the issue and Im not in japanese arts so Im sure I'll have something else wrong with me for posting this Ill be interested to see what it is :shrug:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *This is some heavy stuff here, as Cheech, and Chong would say. Some days , it just don't pay to get outta bed, and be the Emperor! The subjects are restless, Lord Sidious, take a vacation, and let the other Mods take the flack for a bit?:wavey: *



Arni's on vacation at the moment, and Robert and Cthu just don't get along for some reason.  So, I'm the guy to take the bullet here this time.  Plus, 3 of my last 5 attempted vacations were disrupted due to issues involving Robert. (The other 2 involved MoroMoro, who has also now been banned.)

Robert bitched about things being done in secret, so, I took this bit public.

Robert bitched about dual standards, and how he cant get a break around here, yet, we've given him a ton.

He's asked to be deleted twice, then asked to come back.  We let him.

He's been suspended several times, yet hasn't been banned yet.  But we've booted a few for less.  Then again, they also don't have 1800+ posts either.  I wonder how many of those are serious content, and how many many would only be Inquisitor business?  

He wants us to boot the frauds and trolls, yet he himself is not immune to troll-like behavior.  He will of course quote Saint Phil, but I say Pot-Kettle-Black..

He will argue on how much leeway is given to certain of my friends.  
Yet 'Ace" has also been suspended in the past.  'Gou' also was suspended, and later banned. (Gou who directed far more people here than Robert by most accounts, and who helped lay the foundation. Remember, I like Gou.)

Robert might argue that I'm 'protecting a friend/staff/client'.  nah.  If I though someone was wrong, I'd boot em, regardless.  Refund em the cash if need be.

Robert argues incesintly (sp) about people not answering his questions, yet he himself will mis-quote, truncate, and otherwise modify information to his make his point, all the while avoiding questions asked of him.

Has Robert been helpful?  Yes he has.  Then again, much of what he has posted was not his own work, but cut-n-paste from other sources, that a little time on Google could certainly turn up.

Some consider Robert to be an expert in the Karate world, yet under his constant pounding, the karate forum here is suffering.  Many people have stopped in, and left out of concern that they will somehow fall short.  Purhaps if his Inquisition wasn't here, the Karate forum would be as active at the Kenpo area?  I don't know.  

This forum is a business at the core.  There are over 10000 other forums out there, many dedicated to the things Robert screams about so much...yet, I dont see him there.  He quit E-Budo in a huff, doesn't post much on Budoseek....where else is he welcome?

I've got no personal issues with him, other than his unhealthy fixation with my groin region.  (Therapy sir...or else pay for your autographed picture of my stones.  Your invoice is past due and UPS says you signed for it) 


I think its very telling that more folks say 'boot' him, than 'keep' him.  Its also v.telling that only 1 person says I'm an idiot here.  I really had expected a few more in -that- column. 


Roberts welcome to stay, but the Inquisition is not.  If they can't be seperated, then I guess both may have to find a new home.

-Bob


----------



## Cthulhu (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> I think its very telling that more folks say 'boot' him, than 'keep' him.  Its also v.telling that only 1 person says I'm an idiot here.  I really had expected a few more in -that- column.
> -Bob *



Well, I _wanted_ to call you an idiot, boss, but the poll wouldn't let me make two selections.  

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Cthulhu


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

Its multiple choice!!!!

sheesh....

HEY!  I got another vote!  COOL! :rofl:


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jun 16, 2003)

Here are my thoughts on the matter.

  Robert has helped some individuals at times and has posted some good information .Could some or most of this information been found  with a good internet source and search maybe.

 Some of what he has posted was from his personal viewpoint as someone living in Japan. The key words here are his personal view point.

The other side of the coin is that he is not friendly in the way he pursues anyone or thing that is not to his liking. He acts much like a stalker in search of his victim.  I believe in the past someone reported to the mods the same feeling before leaving the forum because she was fed up with his constant comments about the arts she studied, and some of the people in her organization.(No name will be mentioned here)

          Because this has been brought into the public view:

 More post, complaints, and time have been spent on OR ABOUT Robert that anyone else, including Gou.

 It has been my view that Robert has not been a positive influence on the forum in general for some time. I have been on his side a couple of times when banning was suggested and for banning him more times than I care to count.

I think there would be less headaches and more friendly discussions if he where gone. I have  said in the past keep him, for he has knowledge that is useful, but I feel he is a bigger pain in the *** than we need and causes much to much conflict.

I wish I had a count of all the people who have complained about him and another list of those who have refused to post ,put him on the ignore list, or quite the forum because of him. I think those numbers by themselves shout GET HIM OUT OF HERE


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I was curious.
> 
> It has nothing to do with harrasing a 'mod', but a member.  Our mods are also members, and as such are due the same courtacies.
> ...


Define stability.

Does stability mean that nobody challenges the armchair warrior sokes and super master sifu 10th dans?

RyuShiKan DOES NOT go out looking for frauds to bust.  Rather, they come to him by first claiming something, then RSK gets over them.  RSK doesn't go hunting for frauds.  They just fall right into his hands.

As for someone reporting him...  Could it be a select few that report him every time?


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 16, 2003)

I recently posted a strong opinion on the Karate forum about the lack of value of Kata training in a thread re whether 80 Katas was too many to learn.  My point in that thread was the typical anti-kata train-for-real argument that Karate people hate to hear.  But with someone asking if 80 Kata was too many, how could I resist?

RSK's 1st response was a reasonable request for me to take a hike over to the MMA forum.  His next response was an attack on my instructors' competence.  RSK also accused me of being uninformed.  Most of the people on the forum agreed with his points regarding my argument and accused me of trolling.  

RSK kept a civil tone while personally attacking me and my instructors and defended his position with a theoretical argument but no actual facts.

Personally, I think his opinion was wrong, his personal attacks were wrong, but his motivation was to defend his training experience.

Maybe that's OK on this forum.  I don't know.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

The reports -from- others have varied depending on where/when.

The reports -from- him have usually involved a-people disagreeing with him, or b-childishly reporting almost every post by someone else who he was involved in a battle with.  He was suspended at least once for abusing the RTM function.



> Does stability mean that nobody challenges the armchair warrior sokes and super master sifu 10th dans?



No.  It means doing it in the right place and right manner using a system that Roberts inquisition forced us to put in place.

As to falling into his lap, I don't see it that way.  There are a number of threads where folks from 'different' systems put up their information, seminars, etc and he tore them to shreads.

Of course, his own website is no longer there for the same peer review, so we can't return the 'curiosity' in kind.

:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

I have referred 0 people, and a lot of people probably have referred 0 people also.  Does that mean that we don't contribute?  Does it mean that if we do have some referrals, that we get some leeway?  Why does it matter?


----------



## RCastillo (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I recently posted a strong opinion on the Karate forum about the lack of value of Kata training in a thread re whether 80 Katas was too many to learn.  My point in that thread was the typical anti-kata train-for-real argument that Karate people hate to hear.  But with someone asking if 80 Kata was too many, how could I resist?
> 
> RSK's 1st response was a reasonable request for me to take a hike over to the MMA forum.  His next response was an attack on my instructors' competence.  RSK also accused me of being uninformed.  Most of the people on the forum agreed with his points regarding my argument and accused me of trolling.
> ...



Well, I'll tell you what I felt when I read his response to you. To me, It kinda hurt. Maybe it sounds like I'm thin skinned, but that's how it goes. What can I tell you. You didn't deserve it.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I recently posted a strong opinion on the Karate forum about the lack of value of Kata training in a thread re whether 80 Katas was too many to learn.  My point in that thread was the typical anti-kata train-for-real argument that Karate people hate to hear.  But with someone asking if 80 Kata was too many, how could I resist?
> 
> RSK's 1st response was a reasonable request for me to take a hike over to the MMA forum.  His next response was an attack on my instructors' competence.  RSK also accused me of being uninformed.  Most of the people on the forum agreed with his points regarding my argument and accused me of trolling.
> ...




Actually tell it like it was. I was not the only that disagreed with you.

Here is the original question:

I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it. How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit? Do you think there is a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata? Lets assume the normal time constraints of a single working male. For example do you think 13 empty handed kata is a good number or perhaps 4, or perhaps 32? With Kobudo do you think 50 is appropriate, or 10? What is your reasoning? 

Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.

-Paul Holsinger


And here is your answer:

One Kata is too many if your training time is limited. What do you get by studying Kata? I'll tell you. You get good at Tai Chi. I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata. I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring. So should you.

______________________________

It was not only obvious to others but to myself that your post was done to stir up trouble.........which it did.


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I recently posted a strong opinion on the Karate forum about the lack of value of Kata training in a thread re whether 80 Katas was too many to learn.  My point in that thread was the typical anti-kata train-for-real argument that Karate people hate to hear.  But with someone asking if 80 Kata was too many, how could I resist?
> 
> RSK's 1st response was a reasonable request for me to take a hike over to the MMA forum.  His next response was an attack on my instructors' competence.  RSK also accused me of being uninformed.  Most of the people on the forum agreed with his points regarding my argument and accused me of trolling.
> ...


You expect facts to back up the significance of katas and forms in combat training?  There are no facts, only experiences.  My experience is if you do them right, and know what they are for, then it will help.  If you just do the form and just do the motions, then it's useless and you will sooner or later get dumped on your *** if that's all you do.  A personal opinion based on experience and the experience of others.

Some things you really can't back up with facts


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

Hubbard,


> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Of course, his own website is no longer there for the same peer review, so we can't return the 'curiosity' in kind. *



My credentials are impeccable and my knowledge of MA, Japanese & Okinawan MA history, TCM, Japanese Language bury yours and more than a few of your Mods.


----------



## Marginal (Jun 16, 2003)

Kinda depends on what's more useful. Friendly but unproductive/uninformative discussion or a bit of self policing to keep things flowing along the lines of the relevant. 

Calling a poster like platnum_angel a troll for example is hardly a stretch. Infight's apparently gotten a lot of lattitude when all he seems to do is insult people in the TKD forum etc. Losing those types is never going to be a loss to a forum. I don't see a whole lot of merit to keeping known frauds around either. May be "friendlier", but if they're not contributing reliable/useful info, what's the point? 

This is just my opinion though. I mainly visit MT because style vs style wars are hacked down to a minimum relative to other sites I've visited. That's about as friendly as I need it personally.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Hubbard,
> 
> 
> My credentials are impeccable and my knowledge of MA, Japanese & Okinawan MA history, TCM, Japanese Language bury yours and more than a few of your Mods. *



And?

Where are your credentials?  You took your site down, so we cant look em up.

Oh, and the world does not revolve around the narrow area you may or may not understand.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 16, 2003)

OK, so you can start another pole and vote me a zero.  

Here is what I read and responded to in that thread: 


> I would appreciate any comments or reasoning



I stated my opinion with no personal attack on anyone.  What did I get in response?  

From RSK's 1st response:


> un-informed, narrow minded, uneducated



From a later RSK response:


> so I am guessing your teacher didnt know the applications or maybe just didnt want to show you..I would be willing to be he most likely didnt know them.



I do admit that my post was controversial and agitated most visitors who strongly disagreed with me.  I said as much in my earlier post on this thread.  But, I never attacked anyone's personal ability, intelligence, or their instructors competence.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Marginal _
> *Calling a poster like platnum_angel a troll for example is hardly a stretch. Infight's apparently gotten a lot of lattitude when all he seems to do is insult people in the TKD forum etc. Losing those types is never going to be a loss to a forum. I don't see a whole lot of merit to keeping known frauds around either. May be "friendlier", but if they're not contributing reliable/useful info, what's the point?
> *



I'm not aware of any reports recently concerning "Infight".  

As to the contributions, regarding RSK, I see a lot of 'I aint gonna tell you' and cut-n-pastes.  Not much else beyond his vendettas, sadly.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *And?
> 
> Where are your credentials?  You took your site down, so we cant look em up.
> ...



 I posted some of them yesterday on a post you responded to.......I guess you haven't been reading them thoroughly enough.
In fact it was a question posted by your very own Mod Rich Parsons that I responded to.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *OK, so you can start another pole and vote me a zero.
> 
> Here is what I read in that thread:
> ...



Here is the thread people:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8352

Read the whole thing to get the best understanding of it.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *I have referred 0 people, and a lot of people probably have referred 0 people also.  Does that mean that we don't contribute?  Does it mean that if we do have some referrals, that we get some leeway?  Why does it matter? *



No.  Was 1 part of a greater argument.

There is a difference.

A 'zero referer' who is a positive, contributing member, who doesn't cause a ton of problems, or drive folks away, is perfectly fine.

A 'zero referer', who is disruptive, drives folks away, and attempts to run roughshod over this forum is -not- welcome.

We got rid of Napalm....we got rid of MoroMoro...we got rid of Platnium-angel...  

anyone see a pattern here?


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I'm not aware of any reports recently concerning "Infight".
> 
> As to the contributions, regarding RSK, I see a lot of 'I aint gonna tell you' and cut-n-pastes.  Not much else beyond his vendettas, sadly. *


Most people don't care to report.  I really don't.

But look at the TKD thread and see.  "Throat practice blah blah" and even claimed he can beat up Mike Tyson.  It could have been a joke but it seemed he was actually serious saying that Tyson was an incomplete fighter compared to his world class training.


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *No.  Was 1 part of a greater argument.
> 
> There is a difference.
> ...


So people with referrals get leniency?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *So people with referrals get leniency? *



No.

Nor do people who are sponsors.

But, someone with 1000 posts and no complaints will probably get more leeway than someone with 5 posts and 3 complaints.



Before anyone says anything about this being public, RSK wanted more stuff done in public.  The numbers at teh top are quite telling too.



Another point...if you dont care to use the RTM feature, then, to be blunt, don't expect us to always read everything and see everything.  We can't be everywhere.  That feature is there so that if you see a potential (or blatent problem) we can tackle it rapidly.  One of us will look into that issue when we can.  For faster service, use the RTM feature.

Its the same as standing at the counter and complaining about the poor service, while the "Please Ring for service" bell sits there unused.

:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone (Jun 16, 2003)

Bob, stop trying to make yourself feel better by supporting your decision to toss Robert out with a general call to arms against him.  Either boot him, or don't.  

You and other Mods have multiple accounts.  You and other mods post under multiple accounts.  You have banned others for doing so.  Is there a caveat that Mods can do this while members can't?

Robert has reacted to the public claims of questionable people, to the public claims of people who claim to possess information or knowledge that they either really don't or don't to the degree they claim, and he has reacted to the emotionally charged replies people he has questioned have made when their arts and their efforts were shown to have elements that might make them less than the be-all-end-all they claimed they were.  Sometimes you offend folks.  Sometimes you don't.  When they get their dander up, you either quail and back down, or you hold your ground.  Some folks have trouble with that, I guess...

I admit that some of his tangential threads could have been left alone, but I don't remember Robert ever going out initially to hunt down those whose profiles didn't sit well with him.  "Hey boys, let's go hunt us some McDojo-philes!"  Sorry, never heard that announcement a single time.

The folks that I've seen ***** most are the folks who have had their arts and practice called into question.  They're pissed off, so they run to mommy and daddy to tattle rather than provide arguments justifying and substantiating their claims.  They could use the ignore feature, they could choose to fight back.  But instead they cry and run away with their feelings all hurted...  :wah:  The other folks who bellyache about Robert's gruffness appear to me to be East and West coast thin-skinned whiners who have trouble dealing with the no-nonsense attitude of us Midwesterners...  Find a way to deal with it.  I have yet to find any of us to be open to loving, sharing, caring, feather wearing, crystal carrying, group hugs in the face of frauds, lies and other nonsense.

And about the poll here...  If I were to have ever posted a poll calling someone a name and asking for a vote to kick or not kick someone off the board, what would the ramifications have been?  I think such a poll is way beneath you , Bob.  But in the end, I want to thank you for confirming in me my decision to just go away for a long while.  With your juvenile reaction to this issue, I am definitely going away for longer than I had thought.  But hey, it's your website, right?  So that makes it your yard and your ball, so play how you like...    And I was your second vote.    I'm sure you will grieve my absence...  :shrug:  But in the end, with the loss of _any_ members, you are the one losing out.

Everyone reading this - either support Robert and his views and don't be afraid to voice your opinions against people whose BS fails the common sense tests.  Or don't.  Seems to me I recall that the way to enlightenment in many older martial arts and temples lay in the stern application of a stick of bamboo, not a warm and friendly hug...

Robert, you know where to find me.  

Open invite for anyone in the Tacoma/SeaTac/Seattle area to train with us Yili folks, provided you have a thick enough skin to handle it...  We make fun of ourselves constantly, so folks with tender sensibilities need not apply.  And we don't play patty cake, either, so if you just want to wear spiffy jammies and pretend to train, stay home.

See you around the pike, Bob.  Or not.  Either one is inevitable.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I'm not aware of any reports recently concerning "Infight".*



Then maybe you should monitor the threads more and rely on reports less...  



> *As to the contributions, regarding RSK, I see a lot of 'I aint gonna tell you' and cut-n-pastes.  Not much else beyond his vendettas, sadly. *



Sure.  Saves a lot of writing time.  However, having trained with Robert (oh yeah, you haven't, have you?), I can verify that he elaborates on all of that info...  Of course, I'm a co-conspirator, right?  So my word means dick anyway...

So many posts while I was writing my response.  I'm gonna get a little stuck in before I leave (or get booted, whichever comes first).  Sad its come down to this, but time to take off the gloves...


----------



## Matt Stone (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *A 'zero referer', who is disruptive, drives folks away, and attempts to run roughshod over this forum is -not- welcome.
> 
> We got rid of Napalm....we got rid of MoroMoro...we got rid of Platnium-angel...
> ...



Johnny Napalm contribued nothing of worth, even in the threads he was not actively flaming.

Moromoro picked a fight, straight out.  He insulted the WMAA, Tim Hartman, and called Tim's recent promotion a complete fraud.  He came out swinging, rather than reacting to things as Robert has done in the past.

Platinum Angel was another case of constant trolling with no actual posting of any intelligible information.

Robert, in comparison, has pissed some folks off, but has always been ready with information.  The fact that you don't like his "cut and paste" approach doesn't decrease his contributions...  What, besides you poll above, have you contributed to discussions lately?


----------



## Matt Stone (Jun 16, 2003)

Bob, if you want to discuss any of my posts here, feel free to email away.

Anybody else, if you care to take up the discussion, email me.

wolfden68@hotmail.com

Enjoy.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

Yiliquan1, 

See what happens when you ask questions about the art practiced by one of the Mods on this boardyou get poled!:rofl:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Arni's on vacation at the moment, and Robert and Cthu just don't get along for some reason.  So, I'm the guy to take the bullet here this time. *



Cthulhu and I dont get along because the last time I was suspended I asked him why? and his reply was dont ask any question just deal with it!




> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *   He's been suspended several times, yet hasn't been banned yet.  But we've booted a few for less*



You have also suspended my account for far less than others have done as well.
Which has not only been my complaint but that of a few others.




> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *   He wants us to boot the frauds and trolls, yet he himself is not immune to troll-like behavior.  He will of course quote Saint Phil, but I say Pot-Kettle-Black.. *



Oh I am sorry did you need all those frauds and trolls?
Welll lets invite them all back and we can listen to people like Chiduce continue his ever inaccurate lectures on the use of Japanese Language, or DKI Girl can lecture us on Traditional Chinese Medicine..something she has admitted not to having a license in.and which I do..but hey I am just a troll for giving my opinon that is based on fact most of the time.




> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> Robert argues incesintly (sp) about people not answering his questions, yet he himself will mis-quote, truncate, and otherwise modify information to his make his point, all the while avoiding questions asked of him. *



Nonsense. 



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *   Has Robert been helpful?  Yes he has.  Then again, much of what he has posted was not his own work, but cut-n-paste from other sources, that a little time on Google could certainly turn up. *



Actually no. Most of what I post is my own work or based on facts which I then produce.




> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *   I've got no personal issues with him, other than his unhealthy fixation with my groin region.  *



Your obviously referring to my saying you have no stones..OK Dr. Freud.Ill change it since that seems to excite you so much.I think you lack any sort of Honor.
You pander to self-proclaimed grand masters blaster sokes that have little or no training, people with obviously made up rank, ( as I have proven on several occasions) people that post things with out having any knowledge of what they are discussing (read Chiduce and his totally inaccurate use of Japanese language), people that whine about me because I have proven them wrong or simply just dont agree with them on some issues.

Yes I did resign before and cam back at not only the request from some of my online friends but some of the people I supposedly hunted as well.
Gosh imagine that..I guess I got through to some people.

Unlike you who drives extremely respected MA people like Mike Clarke away with your childish tactics.

This thread is obviously designed to justify your future banning me in some way so I will save you the trouble.

I quit............delete my account.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

Matt,
  The multiple accounts issue was resolved quite a while ago.  Do you have specific examples?  I am currently aware of 1 current multiple which was setup to seperate some things.

This poll was based on my curiosity.  I was curious if we were reading the members here wrong.  The numbers say we havent been.  Robert claims to have all these supporters.  Where are they?

Roberts issues with certain groups has practically run them off this board.  Roberts just pissed that we don't automatically side with him in his quest for rightousness.

As to the tattling.... I have about -10- RTMs from him within a single day, all focusing on the same individual with comments like
"Trolls", "Trolls", "Trolls", where do they all come from?"
"Who is this "troll"?"
"what is this crap?"
"this is like the 3rd or 4th thread this ******* has followed me into looking for confrontation........not discussion "

I wont get into the half dozen where he complained about a sig or avatar, after, the other party disagreed with him.


As I said, this is public because RSK wanted more public 'modding'.
You can call it juvinile.  I call it meeting his request.  He just doesn't like it because he is the focus.

quote]And I was your second vote.  I'm sure you will grieve my absence...  [/quote]

Honestly, I will.  You've done a lot more IMO for this board than Robert has.  It may have been a more laid back attitude, it may have been a cooler head, it may have been a more open mind, or more.



> But in the end, with the loss of any members, you are the one losing out.



I do not disagree here.

:asian:


----------



## yilisifu (Jun 16, 2003)

Having spent over four decades in martial arts and dealing with many different kinds of people, I'll say this about RyuShihkan...

He is honest.

He is reliable.

He has never misrepresented himself, his rank, or his system.

He calls a spade a spade, which oftentimes takes a lot of guts.  Thank God for people like him who are willing to stand up into the line of fire and shout out the truth...even if it upsets some people.

On this board, a number of dubious people have posted.  RyuShihkan stands ready and goes after them whenever he gets the chance.  This often brings shouts of displeasure; particularly from those of questionable background...

I, for one, am very pleased to have him on this board.  He has passed on very valuable information and I consider him an asset to MT.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

Matt,
  No, I havent trained with him, and after the suggestion of a good ol fashioned beating he sent me, I'm not inclined to do that either.

As to my contributions...hmm...  I pay the bloody bills that keeps this place running.  MT runs in a negative constantly.  I don't see RSK stepping up to the plate and offering a few yen.  I maintain the site.  Sorry if doing that, running a business, and trying to get some time in to train regularly prevents me from personally reading 200-600 posts a day, as they are posted.  Even I sleep sometimes.  I'm sorry, was I supposed to also have a blackbelt/sash/whatever, and a lineage traceable back to some guy in the 1600's?


Robert,
  My god, it took several months but you finally addressed the stone question.  Congrats. Good boy, heres some Pokki.


Roberts not the only 'expert' out there on these things.  

Theres an old saying...opinions are like *******s...everyones got em, and they all stink.

It fits, neh?


----------



## Marginal (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> This poll was based on my curiosity.  I was curious if we were reading the members here wrong.  The numbers say we havent been.  Robert claims to have all these supporters.  Where are they?
> *


 Judging by what the poll says right now, the majority is for RSK sticking around. (There are three pro "keep him options" after all, not one.)


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> As to my contributions...hmm...  I pay the bloody bills that keeps this place running.  MT runs in a negative constantly.  I don't see RSK stepping up to the plate and offering a few yen.  I maintain the site.  Sorry if doing that, running a business, and trying to get some time in to train regularly prevents me from personally reading 200-600 posts a day, as they are posted.  Even I sleep sometimes.  *



More bitching about how MT is such a burden for you.........close it down if it's such a pain in the ***


----------



## chufeng (Jun 16, 2003)

An example of HOW RSK helped out DAC in his quest for truth:



> I'm 28 years old and have been studying TKD since i was 7 for about the first ten years of my training was with the same instructor......
> 
> This instructor told his students and parents he was a 9th degree BB certified in the kukkiwon ect..
> 
> ...



and RSK was NOT alone in hammering DAC...

I'm still not sure WHY this poll is allowed to stand...it violates your own rules...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Having spent over four decades in martial arts and dealing with many different kinds of people, I'll say this about RyuShihkan...
> 
> He is honest.*


* I can't disagree




			He is reliable.
		
Click to expand...

 I cant say yes or no here.




			He has never misrepresented himself, his rank, or his system.
		
Click to expand...

 As far as I've seen, you are correct sir.




			He calls a spade a spade, which oftentimes takes a lot of guts.  Thank God for people like him who are willing to stand up into the line of fire and shout out the truth...even if it upsets some people.

On this board, a number of dubious people have posted.  RyuShihkan stands ready and goes after them whenever he gets the chance.  This often brings shouts of displeasure; particularly from those of questionable background....
		
Click to expand...


Again true, though I disagree to an extent.  He is not an expert on all arts.  When outside his areas, he is not foolproof.




			I, for one, am very pleased to have him on this board.  He has passed on very valuable information and I consider him an asset to MT.
		
Click to expand...

*
To be honest, I do too.  It the way he does things that is at the core of the arguement.  There are systems in place to answer most of his concerns.  He chooses to be blunt.  That is the problem. Again, he is a guest here.  I would not presume to come into your or his schools and correct anything or anyone.  He does not return the same courtacy here.

:asian: 


PS - Please check your PMs.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Marginal _
> *Judging by what the poll says right now, the majority is for RSK sticking around. (There are three pro "keep him options" after all, not one.) *



Huh?


> Hero - He is very valuable member, helps MT greatly, contributes great stuff  9 21.43%
> Zero - He is a troll, drives people away, and contributes little real content that isn't cut-n-paste stuff.  18 42.86%
> Somewhere in the middle - Pain in the ***, but also valuable.  12 28.57%
> Kaith - Youre an idiot.  3 7.14%



I see 9 pro, 18 con, and 12 middle.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *More bitching about how MT is such a burden for you.........close it down if it's such a pain in the *** *



Robert,
   Who pays for your training area?  Who provides the tools?  You, or someone else?

I remember you saying your classes are free.  


Not all websites can fit on the freebie servers.  This one requires almost a box of its own.  That costs $$.  Its not a burden, its mostly a pleasure.  Its ungrateful people like you who make it a burden.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 16, 2003)

Hubbard, 

In case you were too busy whining about the finacial troubles you have for keeping your hobby afloat here it is again from about 7 or 8 posts back

I quit............delete my account.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *An example of HOW RSK helped out DAC in his quest for truth:
> 
> ...snip...
> ...




I don't understand how it does.  Please clarify for me, and if so, I will toss the whole thread, or wipe the poll.

:asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Hubbard,
> 
> In case you were too busy whining about the finacial troubles you have for keeping your hobby afloat here it is again from about 7 or 8 posts back
> ...



Done.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 16, 2003)

> Hubbard,
> 
> In case you were too busy whining about the finacial troubles you have for keeping your hobby afloat here it is again from about 7 or 8 posts back
> 
> I quit............delete my account.





> Done



You've won Kaith.  RSK "tapped".


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *You've won Kaith.  RSK "tapped". *



No.

I lost.

Think about it.

:asian:


----------



## Marginal (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Huh?
> 
> 
> I see 9 pro, 18 con, and 12 middle. *



There are 3 you could call "pro" uncounted as well. (Perhaps you considered those joke throwaways?) The middle option doesn't say or in any way imply, "boot him" so I have a hard time buying the assertion that those votes were against him continuing to post. 

Doesn't really matter to me how you conduct a drumhead, but the whole "OOh! You're all alone!" commentary just doesn't jibe with the numbers you're getting IMO.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 16, 2003)

Kaith:  If you feel like you've lost, then you should have walked away from the fight before TKO'ing the opponent.


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 16, 2003)

This is a long thread, and I haven't had the time to read it all.

I'll just give my humble opinion.

It would seem that RSK has a lot to offer in terms of knowledge.

I think that he lacks "tact" when he "fraud busts" however. There are ways to put someone in there place while staying within the rules. There is no reason to fly off the handle badly enough to get banned or suspended.

That is what gets me. All he would have to do is relax, and ask the right questions, and let the frauds dig themselves into the hole. Then he could state what he knows in a humble manner, and the "frauds" would be effectively exposed. This is far more effective then hammering.

Personally, his mannerism doesn't even bother me; not much does, really. I don't even study Karate, or Japanese arts, so I don't really care. I just think that if he took a different approach, he would be far more successful at accomplishing whatever he is trying to accomplish.


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 16, 2003)

RSK,

I don't know if you'll read this, but...

If you quit MT, then I think that your being a baby. So friggin' what if 18 people voted against you, and only 12 for you. There are how many subscribers here? A hell of a lot more then that!

You have a lot to offer a lot of people. It is unfortunate that your not using this ability to educate martial artists, and you are instead focusing on slamming the ones you don't agree with. It also unfortunate that you allow yourself to get emotionally caught up in BS that makes people have ill opinions of you.

Don't be a baby, and come back to MT, and have CONSTRUCTIVE discussions, w/o slamming people. 

You have to much to offer to be a quiter.

Sincerely, 
PAUL:asian:

P.S. I voted "Kaith is an idiot" by the way, just for laughs!


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *You've won Kaith.  RSK "tapped". *


 X10

If you've read ANYTHING in the thread, it wasn't about who would win between Kaith and RSK


----------



## Zepp (Jun 16, 2003)

I'm not going to bother trying to read beyond the first page of this thread.  

I should say that there is one piece of information that I know of that Ryushikan posted that wasn't true (in the health tips forum), which I pointed out, and it resulted in him openly insulting me.  I know I am probably one of the people he reported as being a troll.  (Though admittedly I did bait him, but come on, sometimes it's just too much fun to make fun of someone's neuroses.)

I voted for the middle choice.  Even though he's a pretentious ***, he _usually_ did provide some reliable information, and his fraud-busting wouldn't have been so bad if he would have just let it rest after he provided us with the information.

Ryushikan, if you bother to keep reading this, I hope your offline life is happier than your Martial Talk life.


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Kaith:  If you feel like you've lost, then you should have walked away from the fight before TKO'ing the opponent. *


And you wonder why...  Oh nevermind.


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *This is a long thread, and I haven't had the time to read it all.
> 
> I'll just give my humble opinion.
> ...


I agree, screaming at people right away isn't the best answer, although I admint to doing it.


----------



## MartialArtist (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *RSK,
> 
> I don't know if you'll read this, but...
> ...


I think him being sick with all the sokes and the people who defend them is the biggest factor in his resignation.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 16, 2003)

> I've decided to break with SOP here, and ask the members their opinions



for starters...

When I asked people to bust the YiLi clan's chops I did that because I represent YiLi...

When you put a poll up regarding a pink belt for MOB, that was at his request...
When MOB put his poll up HE did that...
When Seig put up his poll about MOB, it was tongue in cheek and more for humor...

But YOUR recent poll is a moderator-sanctioned attack on an individual (remember to keep it general? nothing personal?) ...

You can call it what you like, but everyone here KNOWS you are the owner and moderator of this really remarkable web board.
What's most remarkable is that you would prefer nice-nice to truth...When someone gets caught in a lie but then continues to cover his tracks and cry for help from the moderators because someone else isn't playing nice...and then the one who uncovered the lie gets repremanded for not playing nice, THAT smacks of ultra left wing BS...

I don't really care what your political views are, but this board has gone too far to the left in its policies...I hope you enjoy the misinformation you are inviting onto this nice friendly forum...I hope the whole group of soke-dokes can now gather for a warm group hug...

When I signed on here, I was impressed with much of the dialogue...but when I saw how the moderators defended the frauds, I grew skeptical...this POLL is an affirmation that you are more interested in nice-nice than you are the truth...

I can't support that. Sorry...

delete my membership.

For those who wish to continue to correspond, my e-mail address is chufeng@earthlink.net it has been fun, I've learned a lot from many of you...Thanks

:asian: 
chufeng


----------



## Cthulhu (Jun 16, 2003)

When someone asks whether a certain person or group of people is a fraud and you do the research and offer your opinions is alright.

When nobody asks, and you actively go about digging into people's past on your own and then put it up unsolicited, that isn't so hot.

If Joe Blow asks if Joe Schmoe is legit and you find out otherwise and report this, fine.

If Joe Blow signs up for the board and you go snooping into his affairs for no reason, and by all appearances for the sole purpose of 'digging up' stuff, that isn't fine.

It isn't the 'fraud busting' that's the issue.  It's the manner in which it is carried out.

Cthulhu


----------



## Disco (Jun 16, 2003)

Elvis has left the building, for the umpteenth time. As stated before, I have nothing personal against RSK, but I do have reservations about him. Aside from the obvious lack of tact and his hostile demeaner, he had no quams about blowing his own horn (does calligraphy, multi lingual, multi styled trained, historical guru and so on). Some feel that he has a lot to offer. I ask how do you determine that? I personally would'nt know if what he states in his posts (dealing with names and historical dates and such), is in fact truth or BS. I have no intention of taking extensive time to research the subject that was stated, I do have better things to do. So like many of you, I accept it at face value.  If it does not directly effect me, I pay no real attention to it. But, should I manage to have some small knowledge of what is being discussed, it does perk my interest. When I have taken the time to get involved/read thru the thread, I have found flaws/contradictions with his rebuttles to others. Now understand, what I may consider contrary, other's may not.  All this being said, I would prefer that RSK stay a member. We may not see eye to eye (in fact we have never had a dialog with each other), but all sides of a debate/discussion/argument should be voiced. Yeah, you may be a pain in the *** to many, but my kids are a pain in the *** too, but I still love them. You are to me a brother within the Martial Arts Family. Since we are a form of family, we should be able to tolerate each other better and at least attempt to co-exist on a more rational basis. 
    :asian:


----------



## paihequan (Jun 16, 2003)

> Since we are a form of family, we should be able to tolerate each other better and at least attempt to co-exist on a more rational basis.



I agree. :asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

I will not comment further on Robert, other than to say I wish him well.

The same goes to chufeng.

Both of them are welcome to resignup later if they so wish, as is anyone else whose account we delete at their request.

The only stipulation is, follow our rules.


I don't like the frauds, but they often times seem to be a lot friendlier than the busters.

Based on the concerns of a few, we tried to put guidelines into place to aid this 'fraud busting'.  The way it was being done turned almost every thread into a resume check.

The ideals on this board are the friendly exchange of information.  Information being techniques, forms, ideas, seminars, and more.

Its not 'fraudtalk'.

But, its also not been very friendly either.  
I expect a few more folks to leave.

Its a shame.  Most do have a lot to offer.

Then again, I think many that were forced away due to the constant paper checks also had alot to offer.

Some people cups run over it seems.


Peace.
:asian:


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 16, 2003)

"Too far to the left?"

Now that's comedy. Good to know that the Big Lies that morally-defective pundits like William Bennett and George F. Will have been shouting (and getting paid very, very well indeed to shout, I might add) from the rooftops have sunk in...


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

Can I possibly be too far to the right -and- left?

I mean, I know I need to lose a few pound, but thats just mean.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 16, 2003)

1 small request.

If you would like your account deleted, please use the Report To Mod feature on any post in this thread, and specifiy that you want your account killed.

You can also PM me or Cthu.  Please dont PM Arnisador.
He is on vacation for at least another week, so will be way behind answering any PMs or emails about this or other board issues.

It will be done no questions asked.

If in the future you wish to sign up again, the door will be open.


Peace.
:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I posted some of them yesterday on a post you responded to.......I guess you haven't been reading them thoroughly enough.
> In fact it was a question posted by your very own Mod Rich Parsons that I responded to. *




RSK is a guest for now.

I will still reply.

Thank you RSK for your post.

Yet, Could anyone please inform me, how I would go about verifying these claims with whom RSK trained?

Do, I personally care? Nope!

Do I think the exercise would be good for knowledge,? Yes I do just ofr the experience of knowing how it is done.

Thank you all


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Bob, stop trying to make yourself feel better by supporting your decision to toss Robert out with a general call to arms against him.  Either boot him, or don't.
> 
> You and other Mods have multiple accounts.  You and other mods post under multiple accounts.  You have banned others for doing so.  Is there a caveat that Mods can do this while members can't?
> ...



Matt,

Nice arguement.

PM me so we can discuss my supposed insult to you sir.

I never meant it as such yet, I see that I have offended your instructor and or you yourself.

:asian:


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 17, 2003)

Cthulhu said:



> When someone asks whether a certain person or group of people is a fraud and you do the research and offer your opinions is alright.
> 
> When nobody asks, and you actively go about digging into people's past on your own and then put it up unsolicited, that isn't so hot.
> 
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to differentiate between true fraud busting, and martial talk poster smearing. Fraud busting serves its purposes. If a poster wants to go to a seminar, and hasn't heard anything about the instructor, and asks a question on MT and gets sound advice, based on experience, that is one thing. It's win-win.

But when a poster comes to MT and wants to contribute, and his background becomes a battleground for all that want to slam him, then there are some who wouldn't call that "fraud busting". Smearing might be a better term. Hard to argue that it's all that friendly.   

Some people seem genuinely threatened by those that claim high rank. It is interesting. Some systems dole out rank at an alarming rate, and not just western ones, but Okinawan and Japanese as well. 

In Japan, there have been young high dans. One example is Shogo Kuniba who reached 7th dan at 31 (http://www.kunibakai.org/history_of_shogo_kuniba.htm). Eizo Shimabukuro, headmaster of Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, was promoted to 10th dan at 34 by Kanken Toyama. (http://www.okinawankarateclub.com/Shorin_Ryu.htm). Oyata was a 7th dan by the time he was 36.

In the US, there are hundreds of people still active that began training in the arts in the 60s, and thousands that began training in the 70s. For those in systems that award rank, that translates into thousands of individuals with 5th degree and above. And many of these long time practitioners are from systems with no affiliation with Japan or Okinawa and are found across North and South America, Europe, and the Middle East. 

MT has become a soapbox for self-appointed fraud-busters that claim they can look at a jpeg of a diploma and then accurately judge the legitimacy and effectiveness of a system. Yet some of these same individuals have made claims that to truly understand a system, you have to train in it for years.  

There are some who would like to share on MT without having to undergo an exhaustive review of their backgrounds, particularly when the review is likely to include ridicule of the system one has chosen to train in. 

There are some who would like to use MT to share information about seminars, and share jpegs of training without each picture receiving a negative critique on whether a particular stance is appropriate and or hand position effective, or whether the art is a legitimate one. 

There are some who would like to share all sorts of information in a friendly forum free from ridicule and verbal abuse. The past three months have shown a remarkable slide away from the friendly, as ever more emboldened individuals use the forum to denigrate those they dislike. 

Is it there going to be an renewed effort at a friendly forum, or should we expect more of the same?


----------



## paihequan (Jun 17, 2003)

Shuri-Te makes some very valid points and ones certainly worthy of some consideration.



> But when a poster comes to MT and wants to contribute, and his background becomes a battleground for all that want to slam him, then there are some who wouldn't call that "fraud busting". Smearing might be a better term. Hard to argue that it's all that friendly.



This is what happened to me. I merely posted a link to my own web site and was set upon. In reply, I did not validate the attacks made on me but rather simply decided to be polite as possible in any posts I made. I am after all a person not a martial arts politician. I have asked that Mr. Hubbard check my credentials and make his own decision.



> Is it there going to be an renewed effort at a friendly forum, or should we expect more of the same?



I hope that this is a start of a new and hopefully more friendly Martial Talk in which the arts (not the personalities and ranks behind them) are the focal point. :asian:


----------



## Algus (Jun 17, 2003)

There is only two persons here at Martial Talk, whom I read all of their posts, and RyuShiKan is one of them.

I will miss you, Robert.  Please come back! 

Kaith, I think that MT is one of the best forums around. And the reason I signed up was RyuShiKan. 

I think that polls about members should be avoided. But in this case...well ok... as RyuShiKan is a big boy and can take this screening. He is one most knowledgeable martial artist I know, that also puts in time on the Internet. I think that RyuShiKan could be used better here on MT. I learned alot from him here at MT and hopefully we can engage him more in friendly discussions in the future. 

While I do not always agree with RyuShiKan about the fraud-busting. A little to much sometimes - misguided energy. It is mainly because he gives them information that allows the "wanna-be-sokes" to make their cover up better. I kind of like when they use the wrong (or misdrawn) kanji and make up real bad names (words). Easy to spot and provides a good laugh. But the amount of wannabees are really, really depressing. 

I regard Robert as good friend and a excellent teacher. Usually I leave to him to fend for himself, as he is more then able. Kaith, do not lose Robert as a member. I think that Chufeng post said it all the right reasons for that as well.

(OK! So I usually do not post much on forums. What can I say. I read fast, but I write s-l-o-w.)


----------



## yilisifu (Jun 17, 2003)

When I first saw this thread - about taking a vote on the worth of a particular member, I was really rather shocked.  I expected more professionalism than that.  I posted what I honestly thought, but it's obvious that this personal problem with a member has gone way too far.

When a member like RSK is attacked because he stands up and asks perfectly valid questions, it's time to depart and return to my own kind.

Please delete my account.


----------



## Kirk (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *When a member like RSK is attacked because he stands up and asks perfectly valid questions, it's time to depart and return to my own kind.*



You're the founder of Yiliquan, aren't you?  I would think a man
of your intelligence would see it's not the fraud busting (which I
have enjoyed for the most part) it's just *the way* it's
gone about.  How can you honestly say that RSK has only 
_defended_ attacks?  While I appreciate his knowledge, and
have been personally helped by him and what he knows, I have
to concede that he's not always soleley defending himself.   He
has attacked, IMO .. case in point, the thread that sparked this
poll in the first place.

RSK .. I too hope you come back, and can just see what I believe
most are saying ... most things about you are liked, and 
appreciated.  Even the fraud busting ... it's just the way you've
gone about it, *sometimes*.

If you're not coming back, thank you for your knowledge and
assistance.
:asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> When a member like RSK is attacked because he stands up and asks perfectly valid questions, it's time to depart and return to my own kind.
> [/B]




So, what you are saying here sir, is that its not ok to attack someone like RSK, but it is ok to attack others?

I disagree.  



> When I first saw this thread - about taking a vote on the worth of a particular member, I was really rather shocked. I expected more professionalism than that. I posted what I honestly thought, but it's obvious that this personal problem with a member has gone way too far.



This isn't personal, to me anyway.  I harbor no ill will towards him.  But, I will agree, it wasn't the most professional thing to do, and perhaps the method left something to be desired.  For that, I apologize.



> Please delete my account.



Done.  


To paraphrase from Kirk: *it's not the fraud busting ( it's just the way it's been gone about. *


----------



## Cthulhu (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> To paraphrase from Kirk: it's not the fraud busting ( it's just the way it's been gone about.  *


* 

Actually, you paraphrased me, but I'll let it slide.  

Cthulhu*


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 17, 2003)

I hope your somewhere reading this, even though you've resigned your membership, at least temporarily.



> When I signed on here, I was impressed with much of the dialogue...but when I saw how the moderators defended the frauds, I grew skeptical...this POLL is an affirmation that you are more interested in nice-nice than you are the truth...
> 
> I can't support that. Sorry...
> 
> delete my membership.



You see, I don't see it as Mods. defending frauds. The reason is I have done my fair share of "fraud busting" in the Modern Arnis Forum. I have been single handedly responsable for "taking down" certain individuals for behaviors that were disagreeable. I have maybe been warned 2 or 3 times in the past year when it got heated and I crossed the line, but nothing more. I don't think that this is because the Mods like me better then anyone else.

The reason I am a living example of someone who has regularly "argued" here without getting in trouble is because when I "give it to" someone, I don't actually "slam" them (usually). I use logical arguements and facts to debunk others. I shy away from the personal attacks. This has kept me out of trouble.

I think that people get in trouble when they get into the name calling and slams. If people would just keep it clean, they could "fraud bust" all they want to, and they wouldn't get in trouble. The problem with RSK is that far to often he would cross the line from logical debating into slamming territory. I know that you like him and his opinions, but I don't think that you can ignore this fact.

I actually like the guy too, but you reap what you sow. If his behavior turns everyone off, including the mods, and gets him in trouble, then that is his problem. Not mine or yours.

Chufeng, Kaith is a good guy overall. I can see your point about this poll; it probably wasn't a good idea to go through with it w/o RSK's permission. I don't know if kaith will be doing this again anytime soon. Regardless, I would hate to see you leave this forum because of it. I like what you have to say, and what you have to offer. It would really be too bad to see you leave.

PAUL

P.S. I will be e-mailing you later about internal stuff. I have been meaning to follow up on the last advise you had given me.
:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 17, 2003)

Don't you leave too!

I just don't think that people should leave over something this retarded.

I hope that those who leave decide to return eventually, realizing that leaving doesn't solve any problems...


----------



## qizmoduis (Jun 17, 2003)

My $0.02.

This is the most disappointing thread I've ever seen.  MT is lessened greatly due to the shenanigans, ON BOTH SIDES, here.  It's especially saddening to see the YiLi folks jump ship.

:flushed:


----------



## Master of Blades (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Actually, you paraphrased me, but I'll let it slide.
> 
> Cthulhu *



*ACTUALLY* , You all paraphrased me from my "Is Martial Talk...." thread. Now where was I......oh yeah! Hiding!  


**Hides**


----------



## A.R.K. (Jun 17, 2003)

Wow!!  Take a week off.......

I'm going to put a different slant on this if I may.  I hold no ill will towards Robert in anyway, shape or form.  However, his approach leaves much to be desired, it seems the vast majority here agree.  But I see much more to this.  Let me explain.

Numerous times a poster contributes to a post, creates a post or is the subject of a post and Robert goes into a tirade.  It is not a simply matter of he asks a question, or posts an opinon.  He works himself up into a frenzy.  There is a good example just below this thread, in this forum.  Robert will post ten times in rapid succession, with the posts becoming more and more volitile and abusive.  This is not normal, healthy behavior.   The logical approach would be to ask a question or post a comment and wait for a reply.  This is normal, logical and healthy diologe.  Roberts approach is to e-mugg a person and inundate him in the hopes of casting doubt on him.  It is a debators tactic, but Robert has taken it to far, far to many times.

He goes off on tirades calling all Westerners 'over-ranked-yanks' in one thread then contridicts himself in saying America and the West have far better MA's.  He states that Okinawa is the height of the MA world, then in another thread says they are all money hungry Dan-mill schools.  

He proclaims he has 'outed' people.  Yet I have seen very little evidence of this other than him patting himself on the back and 'declaring' victory.  All of this might be excusable as merely a disgruntled and immature individual.  

But it goes much deeper than that.

He has sent me numerous, unsolicitated emails of pure hate-driven rantings.  But the kicker's were the hate mails with the obscene language.  That really opened up my eyes and exposed him for what he truly is, a emotionally disturbed man that seeks conflict continuously.  That sort of hate mail, that sort of language, that sort of twisting of actual facts is not from a healthy mind.  Apparently I am not the only recipiant of his tirades in either email or PM.

He wants the attention.  He craves the limelight.  How many threads were closed only for him to start another on the same tangent?  Does he have knowledge to share?  Yes, a little.  But most of his 'knowledge' could easily come to anyone here given ten minutes on a Yahoo search.  Some of his knowledge is not factual, I'm sorry...it simply isn't.  And yes he does have 'some' original information.  But not what some have tried elevate him to.

Again, I'm not angry with him.  I don't 'dislike' him.  I wish him well.  But his conduct fleshed out a profile that was disturbing to say the least.  He is not to be disliked, he is to be pitied.  He needs time and prayers to become emotionally balanced.  

Robert, I bid you peace, I wish you well, you are in my prayers.  Leaving was the healthiest thing you could have done.  Take care of yourself.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 17, 2003)

Holy bejeebers!  So this means that I've picked on somebody I should have just avoided.  Time to update my virus protection, lock my doors, and bar my windows.


----------



## A.R.K. (Jun 17, 2003)

OFK,

Lets just say that it confirmed something I suspected months ago.  However, I was also shocked when I received one hate mail after the other with each progressing [or degressing] in hostility.  

As I've said, Robert is not to be hated or disliked.  But he needs help with his issues.  I hope he seeks that help, I honestly do.  For those that pray, put him on your list.  

:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *OFK,
> 
> Lets just say that it confirmed something I suspected months ago.  However, I was also shocked when I received one hate mail after the other with each progressing [or degressing] in hostility.
> ...



Did you keep copies? Could we read it?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 17, 2003)

Just a small 'nitpick' about the whole poll thing.

In the 'sikaran.net' thread I made this comment:



> quote: Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
> I wonder what the results would be if we did a public poll here on making you staff vs booting you?


 
With this reply:



> quote: Originally posted by RyuShiKan
> Do as you like.
> I am not interested in being part of the staff here in the least bit.



To my thinking at the moment I started this thread, I took that as an 'ok'.


For the record, I, and the staff here do know people came here because of RSK.  I know people came here because of GouRonin too.  When Gou was banned, people were understandibly upset.  Some left.  Others, visit less and post less often.  It is the same here.  In both cases some feel the 'exiting' party is being treated unfairly, unequally, and wrongly.  Sometimes, right or wrong, we side with our friends because they are out friends.

You can read thru this mess, and draw your own conclusions over all parties involved character.  But, before you condem or martyr anyone, take a step back and read what else has been posted elsewhere.

Someone commented to me on 'what have you contributed lately'.  Actually, I've heard that a few times the last couple days.

I'd like to answer that.

I'm -very- offended by it.

MartialTalk uses over 1GB of storage space, and moves on the average 20GB per month of data.   

That size hosting account is beyond 90% of ISP's 'website' allowences.  It requires a 'virtual server', or a real physical server.

That type of account is on the average is about $100 a month.

The vBulleting software costs $85 per year to lease.

This software is -heavily- modified by over 100 hours of programming.

The 'average' rate for this type of work is $70/hour.

I pay $10 per year for the domain name.

So far, we are at an $8,295 operational cost for this forum, based on the industry averages.  

I've spent about $500 this year so far on advertising.

I spend on the average 20+ hours a week on here making sure memberships are validated, problems solved, seeding forums and settling disputes.  On some days, I've been on here 10, 12, 20 hours straight.


That is what -I- do.

I am really sorry if the fact that I can't contribute to a high-level discussion somehow makes me inelegible for some courtacy and respect.  I'm sorry if the fact that I haven't got 20 years training under my belt somehow negates my other contributions here in the minds of some.


Added up, I personally contribute over $20,000 US in time, labor, actual cash, server space and web design work to keep this place up, and running.

The rest of our staff also donates a -very- significant amout of time helping folks, researching questions, seeding forums, programming and generally trying to make this the best forum we can.

So, folks, -that- is what -we- contribute.

You all contribute the 'discussion' without which all forums are nothing.  You can fill it with mindless drivel, you can fill it with constant bickering over what the right way to tie your belt is, you can turn it into a battle royal, you can argue over words on paper, or you can act like responsible guests and make this a place you want your friends to visit and a premier source of martialarts information and brotherhood online.

We have several sponsors who apreciate this forum enough that they spend some hard earned money helping me to cover some operational costs.  I greatly and truely apreciate each and every one of them with all my heart. 

Personally, I hope we can again turn this into a jewel on the net.


And, as to Robert, and the others who have decided to leave... I wish them all well.  Please, don't speak ill of any of them, as they are not here to comment back.

peace.
:asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 17, 2003)

With all that said....

I'm closing this thread.

Its time to move on from here.


I want 1 point clear.... I very much do NOT want to see threads popping up or 'shots' made at folks.

This isnt a slamfest, despite what some may think.

:asian:


----------

