# Small surface strikes



## MatsumuraKarate (Aug 29, 2015)

Who practices small surface strikes? By this I am referring to toe kicks, nukite(fingertips) boshiken(thumb knuckle strikes), hiraken(half fist or tiger paw) and shoken(one knuckle strike). What emphasis do you place on their importance in combat?

I personally place a great deal of emphasis on them. To me they are very well suited to stopping a violent attack.


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## DaveB (Aug 29, 2015)

In kata I view nukite as code for a small surface strike of your choice. Using that logic, their place in Shotokan kata indicate that they are for use in close quarters where there's less space to accelerate a fist and thus less power with which to hurt the opponent or harm yourself. 

My kung fu training added to this with the idea of using such techniques from tactile contact and as a way to break the opponent's structure. 

That bbeing said I've never bothered with finger conditioning beyond checking my wrist structure on a heavy bag occasionally.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 30, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> I personally place a great deal of emphasis on them. To me they are very well suited to stopping a violent attack.



How so?


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## DaveB (Aug 30, 2015)

I should clarify that I don't do toe kicks or finger thrusts (from range).


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## drop bear (Aug 30, 2015)

I know a guy who does toe kicks into the hip join. I couldn't make it work.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Aug 30, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> How so?


By conditioning my hands and feet to withstand the impact from these strikes. And also I focus a lot on the application of such techniques


drop bear said:


> I know a guy who does toe kicks into the hip join. I couldn't make it work.


The joint for the hip is one of my prime targets for toe kicks.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 30, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> By conditioning my hands and feet to withstand the impact from these strikes. And also I focus a lot on the application of such techniques.



Okay. We do a lot of "small surface" striking as well… but it's one of the last things I'd give as a good "fight ender". There are myriad issues, not least of all being the precision required to apply such strikes, as well as the need for quite a fair amount of conditioning to use them effectively (that we do as well, for the record), so I was wondering as to your reasons.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Aug 30, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay. We do a lot of "small surface" striking as well… but it's one of the last things I'd give as a good "fight ender". There are myriad issues, not least of all being the precision required to apply such strikes, as well as the need for quite a fair amount of conditioning to use them effectively (that we do as well, for the record), so I was wondering as to your reasons.


Delivering a strike to a small area, typically a nerve or other fragile area of the body, to me is Kore effective than a punch or kick. If your targets of interest are soft than it shouldn't take the crazy amount of conditioning one would think. We do focus on knees AMD elbows as well, but I personally like small surface strikes to nerves and such


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 31, 2015)

For the most part these are strikes are the hammer and saw of my tool box.  I understand the use of the term small surface but it might sometimes be misleading, in that the striking target is small. The human body is the target. The only target I personally would avoid with this type of strike would be the skull. I will admit it does take alot of time to develop these strikes.  Since many people here love to always revert back to MMA based opinions, I would like to point out that I have found this type of strike very effective while in a bottom position. You can use the strike without the full range of motion or standing base  needed for a standard punching.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Sep 5, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> For the most part these are strikes are the hammer and saw of my tool box.  I understand the use of the term small surface but it might sometimes be misleading, in that the striking target is small. The human body is the target. The only target I personally would avoid with this type of strike would be the skull. I will admit it does take alot of time to develop these strikes.  Since many people here love to always revert back to MMA based opinions, I would like to point out that I have found this type of strike very effective while in a bottom position. You can use the strike without the full range of motion or standing base  needed for a standard punching.


Agreed. My opinions are based on actual combat effectiveness. I don't care about the competition opinions. I care about defending my life in a no rule environment. Biting, gouging, tearing, nerve strikes, and joint attacks are my focuses. I will be the one who walks away.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> I care about defending my life in a no rule environment.



Are you often in these places?


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## MatsumuraKarate (Sep 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Are you often in these places?


Anytime you are threatened by an attacker, it becomes a no rules situation. When it comes down to me making it home to my family or them to theirs, I will do whatever necessary to make sure I walk away. If your training differs I suggest you find a hobby other than a combat art. Karate is not about trophies or medals, its about the science of unarmed combat.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Anytime you are threatened by an attacker, it becomes a no rules situation. When it comes down to me making it home to my family or them to theirs, I will do whatever necessary to make sure I walk away. If your training differs I suggest you find a hobby other than a combat art. Karate is not about trophies or medals, its about the science of unarmed combat.



That's a great theory, makes great memes, and sounds all macho.

It's also ********.

I get threatened all the time. It's been less than 24 hours since a tweaker took a swing at me.
But you know, there were still rules. Had I killed them in retaliation, I'd likely be sitting in jail, instead of at home, looking forward to the release of the latest season of The Big Bang Theory on DVD.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Sep 14, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's a great theory, makes great memes, and sounds all macho.
> 
> It's also ********.
> 
> ...


Someone taking a swing at you is not a your life or theirs situation. My reaction to violence will be measured by the violence used against me. Taking a swing will get you knocked out, pulling a knife will put me in a position to where I must finish you before you can me. If that requires me to kill the attacker then I am prepared for that. May sound like Macho crap, but I don't care. I train for combat. I train to survive violence through violence


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## donald1 (Sep 14, 2015)

I've seen some in goju ryu. In seisan  uses finger strikes.
And in white crane matsumura no hakutsuru sho; uses toe kicks. (I think i spelled the name correctly but i could be wrong)    Personally I wouldnt use toe kicks much though if I were to use toe kick it would most likley be used on instep of leg.
As for half fist I know ive seen that in goju ryu form but cannot remember name.

These are not strikes I would use often but can be used effectively,  good question


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## ballen0351 (Sep 14, 2015)

Big bang theory is a great show.  I'm with you DD


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## donald1 (Sep 14, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Someone taking a swing at you is not a your life or theirs situation. My reaction to violence will be measured by the violence used against me. Taking a swing will get you knocked out, pulling a knife will put me in a position to where I must finish you before you can me. If that requires me to kill the attacker then I am prepared for that. May sound like Macho crap, but I don't care. I train for combat. I train to survive violence through violence


I see your point but shouldnt there be more limit? By all means protect your self but knock someone unconscious for throwing a swing?  The attacker started the fight but if an officer finds out what you done I dont think they will see eye to eye. (Self defense is one thing but theres a point where it becomes retaliation)
Same thing with the knife scenario.  Also if you can kill the attacker wouldnt it be easier to disarm and/or restrain them instead? Nobody has to die nobody gets in possible trouble with law


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Someone taking a swing at you is not a your life or theirs situation. My reaction to violence will be measured by the violence used against me. Taking a swing will get you knocked out, pulling a knife will put me in a position to where I must finish you before you can me. If that requires me to kill the attacker then I am prepared for that. May sound like Macho crap, but I don't care. I train for combat. I train to survive violence through violence



Yes, it does sound like macho crap. I didn't knock them out, either. 
I've had people pull knives on me at work, too. Didn't kill either of them. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Anytime you are threatened by an attacker, it becomes a no rules situation. When it comes down to me making it home to my family or them to theirs, I will do whatever necessary to make sure I walk away. If your training differs I suggest you find a hobby other than a combat art. Karate is not about trophies or medals, its about the science of unarmed combat.



So I imagine you live in Syria then or somewhere dangerous... like your imagination. When people start in martial arts and learn a couple of techniques they often imagine everyone they see is an attacker and mentally 'defend' themselves with amazing, of course, moves, in their minds they are Bruce Lee and Jason Stratham all rolled into one.
You are right though, it does sound like macho crap especially to people who deal with violence ...a lot!


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## Danny T (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Agreed. My opinions are based on actual combat effectiveness. I don't care about the competition opinions. I care about defending my life in a no rule environment. Biting, gouging, tearing, nerve strikes, and joint attacks are my focuses. I will be the one who walks away.


...and just how much 'combat' have you been in?
People train in the martial arts for much more than combat.
Most people in the martial arts will never see combat; other than on television or in a movie.
Most people in the martial arts will never be in a fight; other than what they do in training or competition much less combat.
Be prepared for the possibility; certainly. Be a realist as well.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Someone taking a swing at you is not a your life or theirs situation. My reaction to violence will be measured by the violence used against me. Taking a swing will get you knocked out, pulling a knife will put me in a position to where I must finish you before you can me. If that requires me to kill the attacker then I am prepared for that. May sound like Macho crap, but I don't care. I train for combat. I train to survive violence through violence



I'm going to expand on my earlier comments a bit.

I have always made it a point to tell students that it is much easier to hurt someone a lot, than to hurt them a little. And harder still to subdue them without injury.
Perhaps you've not reached a point in your training where anything other than the most brutal response is an option. If that is the case, I withdraw my comments about macho ********. If that is the case, then it's just a matter of training.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Sep 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm going to expand on my earlier comments a bit.
> 
> I have always made it a point to tell students that it is much easier to hurt someone a lot, than to hurt them a little. And harder still to subdue them without injury.
> Perhaps you've not reached a point in your training where anything other than the most brutal response is an option. If that is the case, I withdraw my comments about macho ********. If that is the case, then it's just a matter of training.


As I have stated several times, my level of violence will depend upon the violence I am faced with. While I respect all people's opinion I will disagree with yours


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## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> As I have stated several times, my level of violence will depend upon the violence I am faced with. While I respect all people's opinion I will disagree with yours




I asked you a question to which you gave an answer that had nothing to do with it. How often are you involved in violence, how often are you attacked by people intent on harming you? Are you deliberately looking for violent encounters or do you live in a place where these are every day occurrences?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> As I have stated several times, my level of violence will depend upon the violence I am faced with. While I respect all people's opinion I will disagree with yours



You didn't answer the question, but since it was implied rather than directly stated, that may be my fault. So I'll ask directly.

Exactly what is your training and experience?

And I will echo the questions asked by Tez3:
 How often are you involved in violence, how often are you attacked by people intent on harming you? Are you deliberately looking for violent encounters or do you live in a place where these are every day occurrences?


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## MatsumuraKarate (Sep 15, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I asked you a question to which you gave an answer that had nothing to do with it. How often are you involved in violence, how often are you attacked by people intent on harming you? Are you deliberately looking for violent encounters or do you live in a place where these are every day occurrences?


Fair enough. I stay away from areas where violence is prevalent whenever possible. In the world we live in today violence is everywhere. I have a wife and children and must protect them. 
As far as my training I have trained for 11 years in traditional Okinawan Karate. We train as realistically as possible to be ready when the time arises. Hope that answers your questions


Dirty Dog said:


> You didn't answer the question, but since it was implied rather than directly stated, that may be my fault. So I'll ask directly.
> 
> Exactly what is your training and experience?
> 
> ...


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## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Fair enough. I stay away from areas where violence is prevalent whenever possible. In the world we live in today violence is everywhere. I have a wife and children and must protect them.
> As far as my training I have trained for 11 years in traditional Okinawan Karate. We train as realistically as possible to be ready when the time arises. Hope that answers your questions



To be honest no it doesn't. Violence isn't everywhere, I can call to mind thousands of places where there is an extremely small chance of violence. Where I live there is a murder about every twenty to thirty years if that and that's always a domestic situation. 
The danger of seeing violence everywhere is that far from being aware of your surroundings you see danger from everyone and everywhere but you miss an actual danger. Training to fight is all very well but there's far more to self defence than just fighting.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Sep 15, 2015)

I'm more than aware what is involved. By having the mentality that where you are is are because its seems that way is a mistake. I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one


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## EddieCyrax (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> I'm more than aware what is involved. By having the mentality that where you are is are because its seems that way is a mistake. I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one



I am going to have to disagree with you here......I too live in a very safe environment.  This does not mean I do not train very hard  or include real world scenario based self defense drills.  I feel very confident/comfortable in my skills in what I can/cant do effectively.  This said, I do not kid myself that I know what true violence is like as most of my real world engagement was a billion years ago when i was a kid in school.  In addition, I have done extensive research into the legalities of conflict/self-defense.  Based on this study, I have changed some of my training techniques.

Unless you are faced with the realities of violence, there is no way to truly understand.  All the fantasy visualization will not fully prepare you.

I train in the hopes that if one day  if i need to use it, I will not be as unprepared as I would have been without the training.  Hopefully this day will never come, and if it does my training/education will be enough to keep me safe and out of jail.


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## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> I'm more than aware what is involved. *By having the mentality that where* *you are is are because its seems that way is a mistake.* I believe we will have to agree to disagree on this one



I'm afraid you are going to have to translate that as I have no idea what it means.

for the rest, I agree with EddieCyrax.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I'm afraid you are going to have to translate that as I have no idea what it means.
> 
> for the rest, I agree with EddieCyrax.



My guess.

I'm more than aware what is involved. By having the mentality that where you are is *safe* because its seems that way is a mistake. I believe we will have to agree to disagree on thisone



And that the spell checker got him.


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## Tez3 (Sep 17, 2015)

I think you need to take a middle line neither seeing everything as a threat and nothing as a threat. Learning awareness is probably the best way to cope with modern living, being prepared is also good but seeing everyone as a threat is going to give you high blood pressure and a very stressful life, it may even start a fight that could have been avoided.


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## DaveB (Sep 17, 2015)

Worse, it might make him vote UKIP


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## Tez3 (Sep 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> Worse, it might make him vote UKIP


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## Danny T (Sep 17, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Who practices small surface strikes? By this I am referring to toe kicks, nukite(fingertips) boshiken(thumb knuckle strikes), hiraken(half fist or tiger paw) and shoken(one knuckle strike). What emphasis do you place on their importance in combat?
> 
> I personally place a great deal of emphasis on them. To me they are very well suited to stopping a violent attack.


Most of these are more of a pain reactionary tactic and are not fight or attack enders against one who is determined to hurt you. They are excellent in many cases as a tactic to cause a reaction allowing you to follow up with something else but seldom will 'stop' the attack.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Delivering a strike to a small area, typically a nerve or other fragile area of the body, to me is Kore effective than a punch or kick. If your targets of interest are soft than it shouldn't take the crazy amount of conditioning one would think. We do focus on knees AMD elbows as well, but I personally like small surface strikes to nerves and such



Yeah… you do realise that adrenaline is going to nullify much of the effect, yeah? Assuming you even manage to hit the target in the first place… 



MatsumuraKarate said:


> Anytime you are threatened by an attacker, it becomes a no rules situation. When it comes down to me making it home to my family or them to theirs, I will do whatever necessary to make sure I walk away. If your training differs I suggest you find a hobby other than a combat art. Karate is not about trophies or medals, its about the science of unarmed combat.



Yeah… you do realise that there's no such thing as a "no rules situation"? I mean… wars have rules. I will also say that this whole line of "you're not doing it right, so you can't do it at all (karate)" is a bit, well, completely wrong… there are many reasons to train in karate that don't match your (frankly) extreme and misapplied understanding of the situation.



Dirty Dog said:


> That's a great theory, makes great memes, and sounds all macho.
> 
> It's also ********.
> 
> ...



Honestly, it's not so much macho BS… it's something else… 



MatsumuraKarate said:


> Someone taking a swing at you is not a your life or theirs situation. My reaction to violence will be measured by the violence used against me. Taking a swing will get you knocked out, pulling a knife will put me in a position to where I must finish you before you can me. If that requires me to kill the attacker then I am prepared for that. May sound like Macho crap, but I don't care. I train for combat. I train to survive violence through violence



So you're contradicting yourself, yeah? 



MatsumuraKarate said:


> Fair enough. I stay away from areas where violence is prevalent whenever possible. In the world we live in today violence is everywhere. I have a wife and children and must protect them.
> As far as my training I have trained for 11 years in traditional Okinawan Karate. We train as realistically as possible to be ready when the time arises. Hope that answers your questions



It certainly answers some… but not what is being asked, nor what you think you're saying… 

Look, to be blunt, there's some pretty big issues coming through here… I'm not sure I should really bring them up publicly, but suffice to say that very little of what you wrote here is correct or realistic… although I do get that you are completely sincere as you say it.


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2015)

To the original OP, or at least as I interpreted it.

Are we talking about the front two knuckles of a common punch?  If so - it might be the most under emphasized, and at the same time, most important aspect of striking that is, or is not, taught today.


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## Koshiki (Oct 8, 2015)

It does seem that there is a very common tendency to completely forget that in nearly all styles with which I at least am familiar, the standard punch is a pretty small surface strike. If you're taking a lot of the impact with the larger surface of your fingers, it doesn't feel good.

I blame much of this on gloved training. Some people have been slammed hard with gloved fists for years, but have never taken a solid hit from a bare fist. That inch or so of firm pillow makes a biiiiig difference.

I draw the analogy between getting hit with one of those padded "boffers" some people use, and taking a similar whack with a length of unpadded PVC piping. One is a toy we trust children to smack each other in the head with, one is a potentially lethal weapon.

EDIT: More on topic, I stay away from finger tip type strikes and urge caution to others, (exceptions being raking motions), but I do like one-knuckle punches, assuming they are of the swatting rather than thrusting motion, as well as thumb-knuckle strikes.

I tend to opt for those, as has been mentioned, when motion is limited, the rest of the time preferring the more solid closed fist, palms, knife edge, elbow, shoulder type arm strikes.


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