# Forms for training ...



## 14 Kempo (Jan 29, 2007)

Forms ... there are practitioners that feel forms have no part in training and those that feel they are essential. As I can well agree, forms in and of themselves will not teach a person to defend themselves. I like to keep my mind open and try to find the good in everything I do. Forms help martial artists in so many ways: one, endurance; two, building strength; three, fluid motion; etc.

One very positive note that I would like to bring up is the fact that if our mind finds itself in an unfamiliar position, it will freeze, if only for a second. That second can cost you your life. Forms, and combo/DMs for that matter, place our bodies into positions that we would not normally find ourselves in, thus bringing some sort of familiarity to it if we find ourselves that way in the street. Case and point, combo/DM#4, who would ever cross thier feet in a fight? Not me. It places you in a vulnerable position, but how about the point that if you were pushed and you found yourself in that position, if you hadn't been there before, your mind would freeze for that split second. With practice, your mind knows to MOVE!

Now, forms and techniques put us in these comprimising positions, only to show us how to work from and out of them. I know, might be a different thought, but take a moment to think about why it is an instructor will tell you never to cross your legs in a street situation, then turn around and show you a technique that does that very thing.

I certainly would like to see your thoughts on forms, positive and negative.


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## Jim Hanna (Jan 30, 2007)

People have been debating your question concerning the value of forms for decades.  The one question I do not hear debated is "which forms?"  It seems to me that most, if not nearly all practitioners, accept a form (any form) without question, as if each one is a masterpiece.

Even the great poets occasionally produced third rate poetry.  

Jim


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 30, 2007)

Forms are tradition I guess. Since they have been around for so long I guess thats why they still keep them. Maybe its becuase they teach multiple movements at one time. Through lots of practice it will conditions the muscles to move in those ways so that in any senario when the skills are need they will not freeze like you said. Maybe its the art. A lot of forms Ive seen are fun to watch by people who do them well. Apart from the obvious benifits like you mentioned (fluidity, endurance etc) they are just for art. I dont know. Thats my thoughts maybe it will get people thinking, also Ive only been in about 7 months so I dont have that much experience.

B


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## Seabrook (Jan 30, 2007)

Forms teach students about correct posture, balance, stances, agility, fluidity, rooting, and so on. If practiced consistently, they will improve other areas of your training, including sparring and self-defense techniques.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
www.jamieseabrook.blogspot.com


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## John Bishop (Jan 30, 2007)

I think katas have value in improving one's basic form, balance, and techniques.  And they are a good tool for beginning and intermediate students.  
I'm not saying that advanced students shouldn't practice their forms too, but I  don't see a need to be obsessed with forms.  It's pretty obvious that some people have made it a lifetime project to find every hidden technique in every one of their katas.  They have these long discussions on what this or that technique is really meant to be.  They analize, analize, analize.  They create new katas, or new versions of old katas.    
I agree with my founder Sijo Emperado, when he describes katas as the "shadow boxing" of karate.  And just as a boxer shadow boxes to practice movement and technique, martial artists practice their form and techniques with kata.  But like the boxer, we too get the best benefits from live training.  There is much more to learn from being on the mat with live opponants then from punching and kicking the air.  Or talking about the best ways to punch and kick the air.


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## LawDog (Jan 31, 2007)

I agree with Mr Bishops views on the use of kata. I have only five rank required kata's. I have two non rank required kicking kata's. These are used to assist a strudent in developing flow with all of the various kick's. Two other non rank required forms that are used are old pinon #1 & #2. We us these two forms as breathing development forms.


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## Danjo (Jan 31, 2007)

Back in the days before film and video, forms were how an art was recorded and passed on to students. Each form contained certain movements that the system had and it made them easier to memorize if they were put into an organized format like Kata. In today's world, the need for this sort of physical mnemonic device is a lot less than it was before and the value of forms is less. Also, once an art is recorded in specific defensive counters done on live opponents, rather than katas, it makes it just as easy to learn and memorize. For this we can all thank Sijo Emperado. Professor Chow almost never taught the same thing twice in his classes according to his old time students, but the Kajukenbo Founders created set techniques to respond to various attacks and systematized them. This set the stage for what was to follow. Whether they are called Tricks, Counters, Arts, Combinations, or Defensive Maneuvers, I think that they are a far better way to maintain and transmit an art in terms of teaching real fighting skill.


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## marlon (Jan 31, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Forms teach students about correct posture, balance, stances, agility, fluidity, rooting, and so on. If practiced consistently, they will improve other areas of your training, including sparring and self-defense techniques.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
> www.jamieseabrook.blogspot.com


 

I agree whole heartedly with Seabrooke.  Forms are a very important part of martial arts training.  Unlike sports such as boxing, a martial art does not just pick the 'naturals' to work with.  people without natural ability and inclination to fight are weeded out of sports.  Those that stay benefit a great deal from drills and shadow boxing and live contact.  To treach self defense the presumption is that the person cannot defend themselves and must be taught what they do not have instinctually or from a great deal experience.  Talking about forms and analyzing them has little value if you do not use and test these concepts in a fighting situation.  I rartely teach the samething twice when going through a form.  There is also the benefit from forms that teach different ways of fighting.  Also, someone mentioned the not freezing factor when our bodies get into an unfamiliar position.  There are many principles of posture, balance, timing, relaxation, and breathing that are imho best taught and most easily learned through forms. These are many benefits of forms that i see.  I see no draw backs in them except for blind unthinking mimicing of empty movements.  This of course are jkust my thoughts wrong or right, it is what works best for me.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## LawDog (Jan 31, 2007)

Many from my generation believe that the martial arts community can be divided into two lines of thought,
1- The goal of the training within their own martial arts system is designed to perfect a systems preset patterned material, which includes forms. This training will teach a student how to defend him/herself.
2- The goal of the training within their own system is designed to use preset material and apply them into live drills. This training will teach a student how to defend him/herself.
The training is similar, the point of view is very far apart. Both are correct from their own point of view.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 31, 2007)

marlon said:


> I agree whole heartedly with Seabrooke. Forms are a very important part of martial arts training. Unlike sports such as boxing, a martial art does not just pick the 'naturals' to work with. people without natural ability and inclination to fight are weeded out of sports. Those that stay benefit a great deal from drills and shadow boxing and live contact. To treach self defense the presumption is that the person cannot defend themselves and must be taught what they do not have instinctually or from a great deal experience. Talking about forms and analyzing them has little value if you do not use and test these concepts in a fighting situation. I rartely teach the samething twice when going through a form. There is also the benefit from forms that teach different ways of fighting. Also, someone mentioned the not freezing factor when our bodies get into an unfamiliar position. There are many principles of posture, balance, timing, relaxation, and breathing that are imho best taught and most easily learned through forms. These are many benefits of forms that i see. I see no draw backs in them except for blind unthinking mimicing of empty movements. This of course are jkust my thoughts wrong or right, it is what works best for me.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
For the record, there are FAR more boxers that aren't naturals as oppossed to the ones that are.  The ones that you see on TV are just a SMALL percentage of the world's total boxing practitioners.  Just like how many martial artists do you see on TV versus how many are in the world? Boxers ARE NOT simply weeded out anymore than martial artists are weeded out.  Boxers and for that matter kickboxers ARE TAUGHT "what they don't have instinctually or from great experience".  In fact their training is analogous with martial artists.  This I know from experience.


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## Danjo (Jan 31, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Many from my generation believe that the martial arts community can be divided into two lines of thought,
> 1- The goal of the training within their own martial arts system is designed to perfect a systems preset patterned material, which includes forms.
> 2- The goal of the training within their own system is designed so that a student can defend himself and/or free fight.
> The training is similar, the point of view is very far apart. Both are correct from their own point of view.


 
This goes to whether something is treated as a "Jutsu" or a "Do". The Jutsu arts were older and the goal was fighting. The "Do" arts are newer and the goal is enlightenment and spiritual perfection etc. karate-jutsu, Aiki-jutsu, Jujutsu all became karate-do, Aikido, and Judo due to the changed goals of the founders of them, i.e., Funakoshi, Ushiba and Kano. If your art is a Jutsu type art, then the emphasis will be on fighting. If your art is a "Do" art, then it will be on perfecting forms etc.


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## Shotochem (Jan 31, 2007)

Hi All,
    As a person from a style that was completely obsessed with kata (Shotokan), I find that the live partner way of training to work very well WITH kata training.  Yes, we did do a lot of katas.  We also harped on basics and body mechanics as well as self defense partner drills.
     I really enjoy the more hands on Kempo approach than the line up and do basics and katas approach.  But, I also feel that kata is an important part of almost every art as the katas provide a library of different techniques and styles that are IMO essential to a MA.  
     I found that through analyzing katas and bunkai within them that I became more creative in my thinking and also more aware of my own abilities as to whats pratical and will work for me.  I have spent many hours over the years with partners working out applications from the simple and effective to the outright crazy I would find it hard to believe that I may have been wasting my time.

                                                                           -Marc-


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2007)

Jim Hanna said:


> People have been debating your question concerning the value of forms for decades. The one question I do not hear debated is "which forms?" It seems to me that most, if not nearly all practitioners, accept a form (any form) without question, as if each one is a masterpiece.
> 
> Even the great poets occasionally produced third rate poetry.
> 
> Jim


 
I have to agree with this statement.  In studying several arts, including some that are very form-focused, I have had the opportunity to learn numerous forms.  Some I like better than others.  Some don't make much sense to me.

That doesn't always mean they are completely worthless, but at least for me, they aren't very workable and not very useful.

The debate over "which forms" could be extended to "which forms for me".  Not everything works equally well for everyone.

Learning them gives you perspective, and a better grounding to make the decision of what is right for you.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Forms teach students about correct posture, balance, stances, agility, fluidity, rooting, and so on. If practiced consistently, they will improve other areas of your training, including sparring and self-defense techniques.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
> www.jamieseabrook.blogspot.com


 
Good points, and I would like to add that they are a great way to practice when you don't have a training partner available. Sure, it's great to work with live bodies, to really develop your application.  But that isn't always possible.

Forms are a great way of cataloging the techniques found in your system, and gives you a way to systematically practice them all without forgetting some of them.  I always find it easier to remember a whole bunch of techniques within the context of a form, then if I just tried to remember them individually in a list.  I think kenpo is a great example of this.  In Tracys, we have a lot of techniques that never made it into the various forms.  When I practice these techs, I always need to keep the lists handy, or I am bound to forget something.  But the forms are something that I can work thru much more easily without forgetting a technique.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2007)

Shotochem said:


> Hi All,
> As a person from a style that was completely obsessed with kata (Shotokan), I find that the live partner way of training to work very well WITH kata training. Yes, we did do a lot of katas. We also harped on basics and body mechanics as well as self defense partner drills.
> I really enjoy the more hands on Kempo approach than the line up and do basics and katas approach. But, I also feel that kata is an important part of almost every art as the katas provide a library of different techniques and styles that are IMO essential to a MA.
> I found that through analyzing katas and bunkai within them that I became more creative in my thinking and also more aware of my own abilities as to whats pratical and will work for me. I have spent many hours over the years with partners working out applications from the simple and effective to the outright crazy I would find it hard to believe that I may have been wasting my time.
> ...


 
I think there are good points raised here.  The key is that Forms are useful as a PORTION of your training regimen.  Any type of training, if done exclusively, will leave you with holes in your understanding and your abilities.  But when different training methods are used together, they make you much more well rounded.  Practice in Basics, Forms, Application, and some kind of unscripted "sparring" drills, done as a complete training method, is what builds skill.

I actually kind of consider Forms as part of Basics, maybe sort of Advanced Basics.  Simple Basics develop your technique in the ideal phase, against the ideal, Textbook attack, or even just developing the raw movement in a vacuum.  Forms, as Advanced Basics, begin to develop your ability to change and flow smoothly from one technique to another.  In my opinion, these are still Basic skills.

Application is the next level, where you learn to apply the Basics against an opponent.  But without the basics, including forms, your ability to apply the technique is built upon a weaker foundation.


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## John Bishop (Jan 31, 2007)

marlon said:


> I
> There is also the benefit from forms that teach different ways of fighting.  Also, someone mentioned the not freezing factor when our bodies get into an unfamiliar position.  There are many principles of posture, balance, timing, relaxation, and breathing that are imho best taught and most easily learned through forms.
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Other then breathing and relaxation, all these attributes are better learned thru training with a live partner.  
"Posture" and "balance" cannot be perfected without adjusting to the speed, reach, power, size, and movement of a live attacker or defender. 
"Timing" is something that can only be developed against a live attacker or defender.  What is the technique timed to if there's only a imaginary opponant?  
I'm going to blaspheme here and say that practicing some katas too much, can cause one to develop bad habits.  
Adriano Emperado developed katas from the defensive techniques that they practiced in class, instead of extracting techniques from 100 year old katas.  Ed Parker did about the same thing by developing his own forms that reflected the techniques he wanted his students to learn. 
But some other kenpo/kempo systems have adopted katas that go back to generations of Japanese and Okinawan martial arts.   
One particular bad habit I see developing from a dependance on old kata is what I call the "kata punch".   The kata punch is the drawing back of the fist that isn't punching to the hip or ribs.  A good basic technique for beginners to develop the muscles, and power, but a bad fighting technique.  Fight for real, or fight MMA or kickboxing, and you'll get knocked out if you draw you hand back to your side.  
Emperado corrected this weakness by drawing the arm back to a boxers guard position.  And Parker corrected the weakness by using the non-striking hand as a check.


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## bcbernam777 (Jan 31, 2007)

I am coming from a WC perspective, but i believe forms to be indespensable in training.


They Build muscle memory, performed slowly and carefully they creater a situation where you are able to use your technique without thinking.
They help to develop self discipline.
They allow for the proper development of attributes
They allow the development of proper energy (particulary so in WC)
Remeber forms should be used as part of a balanced diet 

i.e. Forms must be used in conjunction with other forms of training, such as sparring etc


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## Jim Hanna (Feb 1, 2007)

Mr Bishop stated that "timing" must be developed through practice with others.  

Exactly right.  Once you have the timing then you can practice the form correctly.  If you have not done the hands on training, then you may actually practice kata incorrectly.

One can have strong basics, ie stances, kicks, punches, etc and still improper timing.

Take a look at Mr Parker's early videos and you will see him moving slowly with a partner, feeling for the right timing, and then exploding through on the final execution.

Jim


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## 14 Kempo (Feb 1, 2007)

While I agree with Mr. Bishop, I must also agree with the idea that a proper balance is required. Think of it this way, we don't always have a partner to practice with, so do we not practice? Forms give me a way to practice without a partner, not as an only way of training, but as an extention of my training. 

In speaking of techniques coming from from or forms being centered around them, one of the things I do is what we call 'circle dms' ... combos/dms done one after another, in a sort of impromptu form. You start the next dm at the end of the previous, moving continually. We have drills called circle dms, circle kempos, circle kata, and circle pinan ... we use this primarily for endurance and strengthening, but they also build muscle memory. We also do forms in 5 different ways: 1-normal speed; 2-dynamically; 3-full power; 4-total accurracy; and 5-slow motion. This can be done with the 'circle' drills as well. I can tell you, when I go in and work on my own early Sunday mornings with ankle and wrist weights, doing all my forms, both right- and left-handed, including dms ... it is one heck of a workout. No, timing isn't being worked on per-se, but it is one great workout as far as endurance and stamina.

Another thought, if forms are no good, because there is no partner ... can we then assume that visualization techinques are no good as well? There is no partner, however, visualization techniques have been proven to be indispensible in other sports, why not martial arts?

Just some thoughts ...


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## Danjo (Feb 1, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> While I agree with Mr. Bishop, I must also agree with the idea that a proper balance is required. Think of it this way, we don't always have a partner to practice with, so do we not practice? Forms give me a way to practice without a partner, not as an only way of training, but as an extention of my training.
> 
> In speaking of techniques coming from from or forms being centered around them, one of the things I do is what we call 'circle dms' ... combos/dms done one after another, in a sort of impromptu form. You start the next dm at the end of the previous, moving continually. We have drills called circle dms, circle kempos, circle kata, and circle pinan ... we use this primarily for endurance and strengthening, but they also build muscle memory. We also do forms in 5 different ways: 1-normal speed; 2-dynamically; 3-full power; 4-total accurracy; and 5-slow motion. This can be done with the 'circle' drills as well. I can tell you, when I go in and work on my own early Sunday mornings with ankle and wrist weights, doing all my forms, both right- and left-handed, including dms ... it is one heck of a workout. No, timing isn't being worked on per-se, but it is one great workout as far as endurance and stamina.
> 
> ...


 
One can learn something without a partner and one should practice when there is no partner available. However, it's not as good, and you can only get so far that way. I have personally memorized many many techniques from watching them on video etc. only to find out that that was only about 25% of truly learning the technique. Timing, distance, precision are all things that require a live partner to perfect. In addition, you also need expert guidance to tell you what you're doing incorrectly and how to fix it. So, forms may have some value, but they are not the ideal training device IMO. I think their time is largely past.


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## 14 Kempo (Feb 1, 2007)

Danjo said:


> One can learn something without a partner and one should practice when there is no partner available. However, it's not as good, and you can only get so far that way. I have personally memorized many many techniques from watching them on video etc. only to find out that that was only about 25% of truly learning the technique. Timing, distance, precision are all things that require a live partner to perfect. In addition, you also need expert guidance to tell you what you're doing incorrectly and how to fix it. So, forms may have some value, but they are not the ideal training device IMO. I think their time is largely past.


 
I guess I have trouble communicating in writing, I was agreeing with that thought ... just bringing other thoughts to the table. I, in no way, train strictly on my own. I am one that tears down all techniques that I have and finds what works for me against all different sized opponents of different strengths and weaknesses. One thing is true throughout the years, it takes an open mind to learn.


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## marlon (Feb 1, 2007)

John Bishop said:


> Other then breathing and relaxation, all these attributes are better learned thru training with a live partner.
> "Posture" and "balance" cannot be perfected without adjusting to the speed, reach, power, size, and movement of a live attacker or defender.
> "Timing" is something that can only be developed against a live attacker or defender. What is the technique timed to if there's only a imaginary opponant?
> I'm going to blaspheme here and say that practicing some katas too much, can cause one to develop bad habits.
> ...


 

I agree that live partner training is absolutely necessary and these concepts can only be perfected with a partner.  I still think that they can best be seen and corrected by myself with forms...perhaps other teachers can do it with out forms but i cannot do it as well as i  do with out forms . I wish i was that good.  The pulling back to the hip is how i help to emphasize using the waist to generate power.  this is beginner level after it is learned we do not use it as its function has been served.  Again, others, better than myself, may be quite capable of doing these things without forms.  I however still feel i need form training to get these things across properly in order to prepare those i teach to survive real life encounters and learn the art properly.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Danjo (Feb 1, 2007)

marlon said:


> I still think that they can best be seen and corrected by myself with forms


 
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that you believe that forms are the best way to train?



marlon said:


> The pulling back to the hip is how i help to emphasize using the waist to generate power. this is beginner level after it is learned we do not use it as its function has been served.


 
Well, this reflects the old "One-punch; one kill" mentality of the Japanese Karate systems. When you look at real fights, or even the early pre-glove UFC's, you start to see that that isn't very realistic. Boxers using a high guard also learn how to snap a punch out there using their waist and legs for power, but they don't sacrifice the defensive advantages that keeping your guard up gives you. I don't see why it would be neccessary to train a beginner differently and instill bad habits (fighting wise) into them by making them use the waist chambered draw-hand when punching. As somone who came out of Shotokan and SKK, I find that those little habits that were instilled early are the hardest to finally shake.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Feb 1, 2007)

Just for the record:  I've been studying Kempo for going on about four years and I've never learned a kata.  I'd consider it, my teachers offered but I've always got the feeling like he's not that big on it.  I've not asked but I remember when I started he was like "I can teach you katas if you want or we can just teach you the moves."  and I got the feeling like he didn't think the kata's were essential to my learning the art.  I figured I'd get there someday but now I'm studying third-brown and have yet to learn one.  Matter of fact I think I'm going to ask him to teach me one just to see the look on his face.


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## John Bishop (Feb 1, 2007)

I think most are probably in agreement that katas are a valuable training tool.  I think the real question is, how valuable, and what percentage of your time do you spend on them?
I've already given my thoughts on their value to me.  So to answer the second question, I would say my students spend 15-20% of class time on kata training.  How much they do on their own, I can't say.


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## LawDog (Feb 1, 2007)

This may be a little off thread but it is interesting.
Shodanqua in the very early 70's was called - Island Kata.
I was looking at my original instructors book and saw it there. I forgot all about it until just now.
This way of spelling of "Shodanqua" is also in the book.


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## Danjo (Feb 1, 2007)

John Bishop said:


> I think most are probably in agreement that katas are a valuable training tool. I think the real question is, how valuable, and what percentage of your time do you spend on them?
> I've already given my thoughts on their value to me. So to answer the second question, I would say my students spend 15-20% of class time on kata training. How much they do on their own, I can't say.


 
That's pretty close. I review them about once every 5 days (aside from when we do them in class). One day it's punch counters, the next grab arts, the next, knife and club counters, the next two/three man counters and alphabets and the fifth day is Palama sets (katas). So that's about 20 % of the time at home too. (Unless I'm getting ready for a test then I go through all of it every day.


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## marlon (Feb 4, 2007)

Somewhere on MT Doc Chapel makes the comment that each technique / combination is a mini form in and of itself...as opposed to freestyle free flow i would consider that assessment correct.  the difference being that most do not work their forms on bodies (we do btw) whereas we mostly work our techniques on bodies.  Danjo, my earlier comment was not the forms were the best way to train but that i felt that I, myself, could most easily see the things that i wanted focused on and correct them as basics when someone was doing a form.  I am sure there are many others better than me who do not need such a tool but for now i still need this as a ** part*** of the training tools and methods for me to feel that i am doing the best for those who come to me to learn.  This is what i wanted to say with the earlier post:  

 " I agree that live partner training is absolutely necessary and these concepts can only be perfected with a partner. I still think that they can best be seen and corrected by myself with forms...perhaps other teachers can do it with out forms but i cannot do it as well as i do with out forms "

i apologize for not being more clear


Respectfully,
Marlon


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