# This guy would kick 90% of BlackBelts *** **WARNING -- EXPLICIT CONTENT**



## Kofo (May 29, 2014)

***** WARNING -- EXPLICIT AUDIO IN VIDEO CLIP *****

See the way he beats up those bouncers. Given a few months of boxing training, that naturally strong, intimidating and powerful guy would take out 99% of blackbelts.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 29, 2014)

I disagree. He's just as vulnerable as anybody else at several points in that video.

Gnarlie


----------



## Kofo (May 29, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> I disagree. He's just as vulnerable as anybody else at several points in that video.
> 
> Gnarlie


Nope, 90% of blackbelts will lose to this guy. They will choke because of his agression and intimidating, muscular persona.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 29, 2014)

Hang on, it was 99% a minute ago... 

Gnarlie


----------



## Kofo (May 29, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Hang on, it was 99% a minute ago...
> 
> Gnarlie



99% with a few months of boxing training...

However I am sure there are plenty of videos of a blackbelt taking on a guy like that, and winning...


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> See the way he beats up those bouncers. Given a few months of boxing training, that naturally strong, intimidating and powerful guy would take out 99% of blackbelts.



:bs::rofl:


----------



## Gnarlie (May 29, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> :bs::rofl:




Yep. 

Gnarlie


----------



## Gnarlie (May 29, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Yep.
> 
> Gnarlie





Kofo said:


> 99% with a few months of boxing training...
> 
> However I am sure there are plenty of videos of a blackbelt taking on a guy like that, and winning...



And what is it that qualifies you to posit this statistic? 

Gnarlie


----------



## wingchun100 (May 29, 2014)

Maybe if the black belts went to one of those schools that award you the rank simply for paying your tuition on time...


----------



## Buka (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> See the way he beats up those bouncers. Given a few months of boxing training, that naturally strong, intimidating and powerful guy would take out 99% of blackbelts.



You were booted out of your Martial Arts school, weren't you?  (It's okay, we know.)


----------



## Gnarlie (May 29, 2014)

I'm not quite sure you can even have a muscular persona.

Seriously, the guy fights just like anyone else and has the same weaknesses as anyone else.

Is he to be fear just because he is big and aggressive? No. I know plenty of big people who fight aggressively. Some of those same people are slow, uncoordinated, tense, overcommitted, and pretty easy to deal with. Size is not as much of a factor as you might think. 

Gnarlie


----------



## EddieCyrax (May 29, 2014)

Yup....video clearly demonstrates the guy has knees just like the rest of us.....In a Self-defense situation with no rules, aim for the natural weak points....

Yes the dude is strong and can probably hit hard, but I do not see mad fighting skills here.... and boxing is not going to save his joints.....

Do I want to fight the guy??? Better question is do I want to fight any guy??? Answer to both is no..... But dont take this answer as an implication of my fear or lack of ability.

And by the way....I am only Brown....if that even means anything to anyone.....


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 29, 2014)

For what it's worth, Kofo has a point. Many martial artists underestimate the difficulty of dealing with a Tank Abbott type. A guy who has substantial advantage in size and strength and is aggressive and experienced in brawling is going to be dangerous.

The guy in the video may not have great technique, but he throws punches with power and accuracy and without hesitation. He's clearly used to being in fights.

He wouldn't be a serious challenge for a professional fighter in his weight class, but most black belts aren't pro fighters and aren't in his weight class.

It's easy to theorize about how you could break his kneecaps or poke him in the eyes. It's a lot harder to actually do it without getting knocked out in the process. Most black belts haven't been in a ton of real fights - especially not against experienced brawlers who outweigh them by 100 pounds.

(Obviously many black belts do have plenty of real world fighting experience against big, tough guys. I'm just pointing out that they are in the minority.)

That said, I don't think that a few months of boxing training would up this guy's winning percentage that much. He already has his own style of brawling that he is used to. It would take a bit longer to reprogram himself to a useful degree.


----------



## ST1Doppelganger (May 29, 2014)

Ugly form but nice relaxed power while throwing those strikes if you ask me.


----------



## EddieCyrax (May 29, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> For what it's worth, Kofo has a point. Many martial artists underestimate the difficulty of dealing with a Tank Abbott type. A guy who has substantial advantage in size and strength and is aggressive and experienced in brawling is going to be dangerous.
> 
> The guy in the video may not have great technique, but he throws punches with power and accuracy and without hesitation. He's clearly used to being in fights.



Totally agreed.  I would also suggest that most black belts should know what they can/cant do.  

De-escilation would be my first goal with a guy this large......Second I would attempt to maintain distance to allow reaction time to the bombs he is about to throw....from there it is completely situational....


----------



## ballen0351 (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Nope, 90% of blackbelts will lose to this guy. They will choke because of his agression and intimidating, muscular persona.



Proof?


----------



## EddieCyrax (May 29, 2014)

As I know my limits, I would never purposely go toe-to-toe with this large of a human.

I would seek my advantages where I could. Never said it would be easy......


----------



## MJS (May 29, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> For what it's worth, Kofo has a point. Many martial artists underestimate the difficulty of dealing with a Tank Abbott type. A guy who has substantial advantage in size and strength and is aggressive and experienced in brawling is going to be dangerous.
> 
> The guy in the video may not have great technique, but he throws punches with power and accuracy and without hesitation. He's clearly used to being in fights.
> 
> ...



I have to agree with this.  It's interesting, because so often we hear people say that the odds of a MAist getting into a fight are slim.  We hear people ask whether or not they'd train under a teacher who didn't have real world experience.  The list goes on and on.  But you're right, and while I might not agree fully, with the stats that OP used, I think that many MAists, might be in trouble.  Now, all that said, this guy is the typical Tank Abbot street brawler.  Think about it.  How many times, have we seen a MA class, in which a tech is being demo'd, and the attacker doesn't 'throw the attack correctly' and the defender asks for it again....'correctly'?  

Personally, I don't see anything special about the way this guy fought, other than being big, and strong.  However, IMO, this doesn't mean that he's unbeatable.  Obviously, the smart thing to do is go for the more vulnerable areas, but when all else fails, I also see nothing wrong with picking something up and using it.  Sure, I know...it'll probably be frowned upon by some, but if your *** is on the line, use an equalizer.


----------



## MJS (May 29, 2014)

And just to expand a bit on my last post...you're going to fight like you train.  Nothing says that you have to start cross training in 5 other arts, but nothing says that you can't work your stuff, outside of class, and adapt it, if necessary.  Of course, not putting yourself in this situation in the first place, is also a wise move.  Big idiots like that guy in the video, aren't just found outside of bars, but many are.  I don't frequent bars, so I'm already a step ahead.  And taking the steps to avoid or just remove yourself from a situation like that, are important.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 29, 2014)

EddieCyrax said:


> As I know my limits, I would never purposely go toe-to-toe with this large of a human.
> 
> I would seek my advantages where I could. Never said it would be easy......


I would fight this guy, but I might actual take on his toe. Why stand and trade punches? Squaring off with Godzilla may not be the best strategy. I doubt those guys were blackbelts.


----------



## Buka (May 29, 2014)

One of the signs hanging in my dojo says, "The bigger they are, the harder they HIT. That's why there are weight divisions."  

That being said -I  have never known a boxer, a wrestler, an intermediate BJJ guy, a good  hockey player or a cunning city kid who wouldn't smoke that fat bastard  in ten seconds. He's a one trick pony with a swinging right hand - hell,  that's the guy you dream about if you have to fight - big target, wide  swinging and stupid. Will you get hit? Sure, it happens in a fight  sometimes (Gee, ya think?) Then he takes off his shirt. Know why? Two  reasons - because he's already overheating from weight and alcohol and  he NEEDS to convince himself and his buddies he's a tough guy. Please  God, if I ever get attacked by a young bull, let it be him with that big  swing.

As a cop you answer calls like that all the time. It makes you wish you were off duty just so you can drop him.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 29, 2014)

Buka said:


> One of the signs hanging in my dojo says, "The bigger they are, the harder they HIT.



I have a saying, "The bigger they are the harder you hit them".


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 29, 2014)

MJS said:


> I have to agree with this.  It's interesting, because so often we hear people say that the odds of a MAist getting into a fight are slim.  We hear people ask whether or not they'd train under a teacher who didn't have real world experience.  The list goes on and on.  But you're right, and while I might not agree fully, with the stats that OP used, I think that many MAists, might be in trouble.  Now, all that said, this guy is the typical Tank Abbot street brawler.  Think about it.  How many times, have we seen a MA class, in which a tech is being demo'd, and the attacker doesn't 'throw the attack correctly' and the defender asks for it again....'correctly'?
> 
> Personally, I don't see anything special about the way this guy fought, other than being big, and strong.  However, IMO, this doesn't mean that he's unbeatable.  Obviously, the smart thing to do is go for the more vulnerable areas, but when all else fails, I also see nothing wrong with picking something up and using it.  Sure, I know...it'll probably be frowned upon by some, but if your *** is on the line, use an equalizer.



Also he had friends helping him attack the bouncers and it appears that only 2 of the bouncers were knocked down anyway.


----------



## pgsmith (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> See the way he beats up those bouncers. Given a few months of boxing training, that naturally strong, intimidating and powerful guy would take out 99% of blackbelts.



  I have to absolutely disagree with you. 99% of black belts (I also have brown belts, and one blue braided cotton one that I wear on occassion, but you didn't mention those) would have enough brains to avoid getting in a situation where they would have to fight with a large bruiser.


----------



## yorukage (May 29, 2014)

Awesome, I'm a big guy and I have a black belt. I must be unstoppable by the OP's logic! A veritable juggernaut! haha


----------



## Gnarlie (May 29, 2014)

pgsmith said:


> I have to absolutely disagree with you. 99% of black belts (I also have brown belts, and one blue braided cotton one that I wear on occassion, but you didn't mention those) would have enough brains to avoid getting in a situation where they would have to fight with a large bruiser.



^^This. 99% of black belts would have beaten him without even lifting a finger, by not being there, outside that bar. The more I read that '99% of black belts' line, the more I am thinking 'does he take them out all at once or one at a time?'


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 29, 2014)

pgsmith said:


> I have to absolutely disagree with you. 99% of black belts (I also have brown belts, and one blue braided cotton one that I wear on occassion, but you didn't mention those) would have enough brains to avoid getting in a situation where they would have to fight with a large bruiser.



Well, yes. By that same token, Jon Jones would never beat me in a fight - because I'm not stupid enough to take him on and he has better things to do than fight random people for no paycheck.


----------



## skribs (May 29, 2014)

> That being said -I  have never known a boxer, a wrestler, an  intermediate BJJ guy, a good  hockey player or a cunning city kid who  wouldn't smoke that fat bastard  in ten seconds. He's a one trick pony  with a swinging right hand - hell,  that's the guy you dream about if  you have to fight - big target, wide  swinging and stupid. Will you get  hit? Sure, it happens in a fight  sometimes (Gee, ya think?) Then he  takes off his shirt. Know why? Two  reasons - because he's already  overheating from weight and alcohol and  he NEEDS to convince himself  and his buddies he's a tough guy. Please  God, if I ever get attacked by  a young bull, let it be him with that big  swing.



I play a lot of online video games, and there are a lot of enemies that are really easy as long as you don't get hit by that one big attack.  These enemies can take weeks before you bring them down.  "Just avoid that fist" is fine until the one time you mess up and get hit.



> ^^This. 99% of black belts would have beaten him without even lifting a  finger, by not being there, outside that bar. The more I read that '99%  of black belts' line, the more I am thinking 'does he take them out all  at once or one at a time?'



Unless those black belts were in a profession where they had to de-escalate the situation.  Granted, in those cases, maybe less lethal compliance aids or a more lethal compliance encourager would be a better option.


----------



## Kofo (May 29, 2014)

EddieCyrax said:


> Yup....video clearly demonstrates the guy has knees just like the rest of us.....In a Self-defense situation with no rules, aim for the natural weak points....



Well theres still no knee kick KO in UFC. Only guys that hurt their own legs when trying to kick.

Knees are not that woulnerable in a fight, because you move lightly on your toes.


----------



## Kofo (May 29, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> I disagree. He's just as vulnerable as anybody else at several points in that video.
> 
> Gnarlie



Black belt would use too complicated technics and overthink. 

This guy just hits hard, even if you use a fancy block, he will hurt you. Just hit threw it.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 29, 2014)

D bags like this get booted out on their heads every weekend all over the world.  Fat drunk jerk are a dime a dozen.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Black belt would use too complicated technics and overthink.
> 
> This guy just hits hard, even if you use a fancy block, he will hurt you. Just hit threw it.



Prove it


----------



## Buka (May 29, 2014)

skribs said:


> I play a lot of online video games, and there are a lot of enemies that are really easy as long as you don't get hit by that one big attack.  These enemies can take weeks before you bring them down.  "Just avoid that fist" is fine until the one time you mess up and get hit.
> 
> Unless those black belts were in a profession where they had to de-escalate the situation.  Granted, in those cases, maybe less lethal compliance aids or a more lethal compliance encourager would be a better option.



If "_these enemies can take weeks before you bring them down_" refers to the brawler in the video - from my experience in about thirty more seconds he'd be sucking so much wind you'ld have to help sit him down. If you're referring to on-line video - I dunno, okay.

I worked as a bouncer in some of the busiest clubs in Boston for many a year. There were fifty guys just like that one. As for him hitting, it's a big swing, they hurt like all big swings do, nothing new. But those big swings are nothing more than force, they pale in comparison to somebody who actually knows how to punch. I'll take that big swing to the chops any day. Besides, there's lots of ice in the bar, no worries.
 As a cop - those guys tend to puke in the cruiser. And that _really_ sucks.


----------



## skribs (May 29, 2014)

Alright, so most of you probably aren't online gamers.  What I meant is these boss fights, where you get 10 or 25 people to go into, usually last about 10 minutes.  Quite often it's easy so long as you avoid that big hit that will kill you.  So your group of 25 people, that probably plays a few hours a night a few nights a week, might take weeks worth of attempts (sometimes its in the hundreds how many times you face off before you finally down him).  Even though the boss is "easy" and all you have to do is avoid being hit.

I think a similar principle applies here.  "All you have to do is dodge his overhand right."  Well, the question isn't can you dodge it, but can you dodge it _every time_ until you can convince him (through pain, submission, or just he gets winded) to give up the fight?  You take one of those hits and it's probably going to rock you a lot more than the quick jabs you can get on him.

I'm not saying he's unbeatable, but rather "just avoid that one punch" becomes a lot harder when you have to avoid it every time.  The difference between this and the video game is you don't get further attempts to take him down; you either defend yourself or you get your face bloodied.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Well theres still no knee kick KO in UFC.



Bit hard to knock someone out by kicking them in their knee.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Black belt would use too complicated technics and overthink.



Nothing complicated about a front kick, a back fist, a reverse punch etc.



Kofo said:


> This guy just hits hard, even if you use a fancy block, he will hurt you. Just hit threw it.



Nothing fancy about a block.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 29, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Bit hard to knock someone out by kicking them in their knee.



Yep but pretty easy to drop them to the ground in pain and causing them to seek medical attention.


----------



## drop bear (May 29, 2014)

skribs said:


> Alright, so most of you probably aren't online gamers.  What I meant is these boss fights, where you get 10 or 25 people to go into, usually last about 10 minutes.  Quite often it's easy so long as you avoid that big hit that will kill you.  So your group of 25 people, that probably plays a few hours a night a few nights a week, might take weeks worth of attempts (sometimes its in the hundreds how many times you face off before you finally down him).  Even though the boss is "easy" and all you have to do is avoid being hit.
> 
> I think a similar principle applies here.  "All you have to do is dodge his overhand right."  Well, the question isn't can you dodge it, but can you dodge it _every time_ until you can convince him (through pain, submission, or just he gets winded) to give up the fight?  You take one of those hits and it's probably going to rock you a lot more than the quick jabs you can get on him.
> 
> I'm not saying he's unbeatable, but rather "just avoid that one punch" becomes a lot harder when you have to avoid it every time.  The difference between this and the video game is you don't get further attempts to take him down; you either defend yourself or you get your face bloodied.




Yeah a guy who is big and swinging hard is someone you fight with a bit of caution.

But ultimately mob the guy with numbers and slow those hands down. Put him on the deck and hold him there. Fat guys don't get off the ground so well.

(Oh what about everybody jumping in while you were on the ground?)

Well I am glad you asked that question.

Who cares you were getting your **** kicked regardless.


----------



## EddieCyrax (May 29, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Bit hard to knock someone out by kicking them in their knee.


Admittedly not familiar with UFC rules, but I have only seen roundhouse instep kicks to the knees.  For a self defence with a big guy like the one in the video, I would be looking for an opening for a downward side thrust kick to the side or top front of the knee.   This would not knock him out.  I am looking to tear him down in order to minimize his power.   Again, I would be evasive as possible.   Not interested in trading punches.   I would lose.   

Know your strengths and weaknesses and that of your attacker.  Attempt to turn their strength against them.  Is it easy? No.  Will you get hit? Yes....  But a blackbelt should be familiar with these concepts.


----------



## bluewaveschool (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Well theres still no knee kick KO in UFC. Only guys that hurt their own legs when trying to kick.
> 
> Knees are not that woulnerable in a fight, because you move lightly on your toes.



That dude does not move lightly on his toes.  And the guys he was fighting forgot rule #1.  KEEP YOUR DAMN HANDS UP AT ALL TIMES.  I'd take a fight with that big fat dude over a lot of martial artists I know.


----------



## yorukage (May 29, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Black belt would use too complicated technics and overthink.
> 
> This guy just hits hard, even if you use a fancy block, he will hurt you. Just hit threw it.



1. He's not fighting black belts in this video, so there's no proof to your claim.
2. Your profile lists boxing as your martial art, so it's no wonder you think someone as limited as this guy would defeat black belts. Your opinion is going to be skewed. (and before you accuse me of doing the same thing with my art, I've done many martial arts and wrestling and amateur boxing. Pure boxers have never fared well in the UFC, think about that, _especially _in the 80s and 90s when there were know weight classes and fewer rules).
3. This guy is strong, but a one trick pony. He is also fat and slow and is obviously winded by the end. A martial artist would play around with him to tire him out, then kick out his knees.
4. A martial artist, a good one, wouldn't just try to block this guys haymakers. A black belt should be able to avoid them easily, then move in for the attack to his knees that are already week from carrying his fat butt. Look how he walks, he is not limber and walks stiff legged because of his weight and his low state of fitness.


----------



## Steve (May 29, 2014)

Question for the bouncers here.  Is it legal for you to carry a taser?  Also, why were the bouncers fighting this guy outside the bar?  I thought the idea was to get the guy outside and leave him there...  what's going on here?  Why would they engage this guy like this, particularly in a crowd sympathetic to the dude?


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2014)

Steve said:


> Question for the bouncers here.  Is it legal for you to carry a taser?  Also, why were the bouncers fighting this guy outside the bar?  I thought the idea was to get the guy outside and leave him there...  what's going on here?  Why would they engage this guy like this, particularly in a crowd sympathetic to the dude?



No for the taser. 

You fight them out the front to get the guy to go away otherwise he is a threat to you or a threat to patrons coming into the venues. If you leave him sitting there then he can smack you as soon as you turn your back.

Or he may have already hit someone and the bouncer was encouraging him not to do that again.

Damn tasers would be cool.


----------



## Chris Parker (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> See the way he beats up those bouncers. Given a few months of boxing training, that naturally strong, intimidating and powerful guy would take out 99% of blackbelts.



Hmm, I have to ask, just what is your agenda here? You have been here since December last year (6 months now), initially joining to jump into a conversation on whether an underweight person could realistically defend themselves, only to belittle all martial arts, methods, instructors, students, and more, showing no actual clue about what is involved in any of them then disappeared until this thread where you're doing the same thing again.



Kofo said:


> Black belt would use too complicated technics and overthink.
> 
> This guy just hits hard, even if you use a fancy block, he will hurt you. Just hit threw it.



Here's the thing there's no such thing as a single type of "black belt" so there's no way to make such a statement. How about some of the skills I hold a black belt in? How's the big guys ability to defend against a sword? Or a naginata? The point is that there isn't only one type of martial art, there isn't only one type of black belt, there isn't only one type of skill set, there isn't only one type of school, there ins't only one type of methodology no matter how much they all look alike in the movies. If you saw the kinds of things that I do, for instance, you potentially wouldn't recognise it as what you think of as martial arts especially if you saw my modern "street" material.

Honestly, you seem to have a rather inaccurate view of what martial arts actually entail the scope of the term, as well as the specifics of various systems. There is nothing to suggest that any martial artist would automatically go to "complicated techniques" or overthink anything in fact, there's quite a bit to deny that supposition. And a "fancy block"? What would that be? Look, my suggestion is to ignore what you see in the movies, don't pay attention to anything done for looks (XMA, for example), and perhaps refrain from criticising something you obviously have very limited (if any) experience with.


----------



## Kofo (May 30, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Bit hard to knock someone out by kicking them in their knee.



Yes sure, but if it really is such a good trick to break the knees, then why does it never happen in the UFC. It seems really harder to do than most like to think.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Yes sure, but if it really is such a good trick to break the knees, then why does it never happen in the UFC. It seems really harder to do than most like to think.



There are several reasons, including:

1. Not everything that is effective appears in the UFC.
2. How many fighters in the UFC purposely go out there to break their opponent's leg? None, that's how many.
3. The fighters do not do side kicks to the legs very often.
4. Probably about 95% of the leg kicks in the UFC are roundhouse kicks to the thighs so there is only a very small chance of it happening.


----------



## donnaTKD (May 30, 2014)

oh dear we've gone back to dragging mma into it again 

the OP said black belts and as there is no official belted ranking in mma then you've gone n twisted it again.

the guy in the vid would be pretty useful in a muay thai environment but would come unstuck elsewhere -- his body positioning left him off balance more than once, his guard was down all the time but yup with a bit of training would be a handful.  

size isn't everything !!!!! it's what you do and how you move with what you've got   oh and a pair of **** always helps as a destraction


----------



## Kofo (May 30, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> oh dear we've gone back to dragging mma into it again
> 
> the OP said black belts and as there is no official belted ranking in mma then you've gone n twisted it again.
> 
> the guy in the vid would be pretty useful in a muay thai environment but would come unstuck elsewhere -- his body positioning left him off balance more than once, his guard was down all the time but yup with a bit of training would be a handful.



Unlike a blackbelt who would be in 100% balance and with a guard the entire fight.


----------



## Kofo (May 30, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> There are several reasons, including:
> 
> 
> 2. How many fighters in the UFC purposely go out there to break their opponent's leg? None, that's how many.
> .



Because it is virtually impossible


----------



## EddieCyrax (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Yes sure, but if it really is such a good trick to break the knees, then why does it never happen in the UFC. It seems really harder to do than most like to think.



I don't train in martial arts obviously.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Because it is virtually impossible



That's clearly not accurate also you don't need to break the leg to drop someone.  I stepped in a pot hole the other day twisted my knee and fell down.  Tore my meniscus and have been in physical therapy and rehab since that was an accident with a small pot hole


----------



## donnaTKD (May 30, 2014)

breaking legs does happen in ufc same with arms, hands and fingers.

it's just that the level and amount of training that goes into a ufc fighter helps to prevent injuries like those described.  on the street there are all sorts of hazards that can be used --- look in the video - there are cars moving within inches of them, if the guy had had half a sense of where he was he could've bounced the guy off a moving car   job done 

shame about your knee - hope you got your local authority to have a look at fixing it


----------



## Instructor (May 30, 2014)

Black Belt is as much about fight avoidance as it is technical combat ability.  Most black belts would never have to fight this man, they would simply leave.  I can run faster scared than he can mad.


----------



## donnaTKD (May 30, 2014)

all martial arts are effectively about defence.

if you have to fight then you use your skills - the guy in the vid had very few skills and a short fuse --- receipe for disaster ?????


----------



## Gnarlie (May 30, 2014)

I think I'm done here, the OP is making broad statements unsupported by fact or any credible experience, so there's nothing to discuss. 

For an MA practitioner with a rudimentary understanding of self defence, even if you're unable to de-escalate or pre-empt, a big sweeping right is one of the things that you've trained for the most and are most ready to deal with. Could even be considered as something of a gift compared to other attacks that could have come, especially when the attacker's other hand's low. Raining forearm strikes, hammer fists and palm heels all over the throat and brachial nerve. Why wait for him to gas out and give him another opportunity? Take his oxygen or blood supply now.

The guys size makes a difference to his speed and fitness, and the amount of power needed to unbalance him, as well as how hard he hits. It also gives him more inertia, meaning he accepts more energy from every one of your hits, because they probably won't move him. Advantages and disadvantages. 

Surely he still has a weak windpipe and the same exposed vulnerable points as the rest of us? If we're playing a striking game (which he is in the vid), the advantage is with me. If we wrestle, then yeah, I'm gonna struggle. 

Gnarlie


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Unlike a blackbelt who would be in 100% balance and with a guard the entire fight.



With a competent black belt, yes, considering the fight would last about 2 seconds.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Because it is virtually impossible


Not if you know what you are doing.


----------



## oftheherd1 (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> See the way he beats up those bouncers. Given a few months of boxing training, that naturally strong, intimidating and powerful guy would take out 99% of blackbelts.



Perhaps you need to meet more black belts.  Do you hold a black belt in any art?

As to the video, I really don't see much fighting by the 'bouncers' there.  Are you sure they are bouncers?


----------



## ballen0351 (May 30, 2014)

Steve said:


> Question for the bouncers here.  Is it legal for you to carry a taser?


I think it depends on state laws.  Here a bouncer cant, but a security officer can.  I only know of one bar that employees a security officer and only one of them the rest are just bouncers.  He has a taser but Ive never known him to use it yet. Not many bars bother with Security officers because they cost more for training and usually demand more pay then regular bouncers.  This is all new here however because up until a year and half ago tasers were banned by the city council not even police could have them.


----------



## Kofo (May 30, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> As to the video, I really don't see much fighting by the 'bouncers' there.  Are you sure they are bouncers?


Bingo ! Because they are afraid and psyched out.

To bad that there wasnt some Bill Gatesesque black belt there to show them.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> To bad that there wasnt some Bill Gatesesque black belt there to show them.



So he can pay him off instead of fight him?


----------



## ballen0351 (May 30, 2014)

Kofo said:


> To bad that there wasnt some Bill Gatesesque black belt there to show them.


Whats that?   Nevermind your just here to be a troll disregard


----------



## EddieCyrax (May 30, 2014)

:44 --- knee open ---- easy safe enterance ---- comes after a huge haymaker wiff -----

but then again I am only a brown belt.....what the hell would i know.....

Timing --- opportunity --- execution ----- 

In addition, so called bouncers never went on the offensive..... the attempted to counter the dude.....If you arent throwing you are recieving......

I can hear my instructor now..."Dont become the bag"


----------



## Kofo (May 30, 2014)

Instructor said:


> Black Belt is as much about fight avoidance as it is technical combat ability.  Most black belts would never have to fight this man, they would simply leave.



Thats a good thing really.


----------



## MartialMellow (May 30, 2014)

Some strong kicks would knock him down.


----------



## Steve (May 30, 2014)

drop bear said:


> No for the taser.
> 
> You fight them out the front to get the guy to go away otherwise he is a threat to you or a threat to patrons coming into the venues. If you leave him sitting there then he can smack you as soon as you turn your back.
> 
> ...


Makes sense regarding the taser, but man, that would be cool.  What about a sap?  

seriously, though, the biggest mistake here still seems to me to be the choice ot engage this guy in the first place.  He's outside, and these guys are literally chasing him around the street trying to beat him up.  It really seems to me that they have successfully removed the guy from their club, and could now go back inside.

Another question (probably dumb).  At what point do bouncers call the cops?


----------



## bluewaveschool (May 31, 2014)

UFC guys don't side kick to the knee because fighting is how they make their living.  Doing that on purpose is a sure fire way to make sure everyone steers clear of you and you starve to death.  They hurt each other, but the goal isn't to put the other guy through surgery and months of PT.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 31, 2014)

bluewaveschool said:


> UFC guys don't side kick to the knee because fighting is how they make their living.  Doing that on purpose is a sure fire way to make sure everyone steers clear of you and you starve to death.  They hurt each other, but the goal isn't to put the other guy through surgery and months of PT.



I agree. In a situation where you are expected to fight again and again it just doesn't make sense to pretty much permanently disable your opponents. Doing it to someone else would be a surefire way to have someone else do it to you next time. I guess there are some unwritten rules. 

That said, I am not convinced of the efficacy of a sidekick to the knee. I think it's a martial myth. It hurts, but breakage is unlikely unless you catch it from the ideal angle while the foot is flat - which is hard to achieve. 

Front kick to the patella from the front hurts but is also difficult to land. 


Gnarlie


----------



## drop bear (May 31, 2014)

Steve said:


> Makes sense regarding the taser, but man, that would be cool.  What about a sap?
> 
> seriously, though, the biggest mistake here still seems to me to be the choice ot engage this guy in the first place.  He's outside, and these guys are literally chasing him around the street trying to beat him up.  It really seems to me that they have successfully removed the guy from their club, and could now go back inside.
> 
> Another question (probably dumb).  At what point do bouncers call the cops?



No saps just head punches. Which is why bouncers hit people.

Yeah look not the best tactical decision obviously. Even the headbutt and then hanging back to see the result wasn't smart. If you are going to start a guy you should finish them. But otherwise that is generally what I do. You never encourage a guy back into your door. If he wants to call you names as he is walking off fine he is walking off.

Calling the cops depends on where you work and what they are doing at the time. Sometimes they are busy. Sometimes they just don't care. I have had assaults where police will attend take the guys details and the just leave him there. But that was a while ago. 

In qld police have a move along power specifically to deal with the guy who stands out the front of the pub with the "you can't touch me" mentality

 But you try not to call them because it brings scrutiny on the venue that management wants to avoid. I have worked venues where they put a ban on calling the cops.


----------



## donnaTKD (May 31, 2014)

agree with the not calling the cops............ too much heat on the management cos the cops will go through every incident in the place and then some and if they find something then the management aren't gunna be too happy.  also incidents give a reputation to a place and can then attract the sort of people that are spoiling for a fight.

if the guy is already outside like in the video - then where's the problem ????? he's outside in the street he's not inside your pub/club doors so job done.  if he was inside then fine do what you need to do to get him outside but the door is where your jurisdiction starts and stops.  the time only i get involved outside is if the guy is starting to kick off on other potential patrons waiting to go into the pub/club cos it then becomes a health and safety issue --- 9 times out of 10 the cops don't want to deal with a drunk person that's up for a scrap, they've got better things to do.

we have in our laws something called "reasonable force" -- now interpretation of that is a very grey area and you'll either get a pat on the back or a jail cell - depends on how others view your actions.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 31, 2014)

drop bear said:


> If he wants to call you names as he is walking off fine he is walking off.



People usually do that because they have just had their ego bruised and they want to feel like they have gotten some of their power back by mouthing off when the tuck their tail between their legs and walk off.


----------



## donnaTKD (May 31, 2014)

either that or he/she has supped too much juice and they won't backdown


----------



## ballen0351 (May 31, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> People usually do that because they have just had their ego bruised and they want to feel like they have gotten some of their power back by mouthing off when the tuck their tail between their legs and walk off.



That's always funny to watch as a cop.  Two guys will yell and push and cuss but nobody will hit until they see the police are getting close then they do wild swings knowing we will step in and end it quickly.   Makes me laugh when it happens.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 31, 2014)

As to calling cops we don't care here I'm not sure why your cops would give problems to management.  It part of the job.  The only time I get pissed with bouncers is when they hit people off their property.   Not that they hit someone because most likely they deserve it but because I don't like arresting or charging bouncers.  We have a lot of bars that don't have any property beyond the door it open right to the sidewalk and street so we keep stressing to then don't cross the door shove them out and shut the door.  Some get too amped up and keep shoving them down the sidewalk away from the bar.  I understand why they just cant


----------



## arnisador (May 31, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Nope, 90% of blackbelts will lose to this guy. They will choke because of his agression and intimidating, muscular persona.



I think there's something to this. That's a lot of aggression, confidence, and mass to deal with, esp. for people who haven't really "thrown down" before. 

What long, loose, powerful swings he has--reminds me of a really long-range crane style.


----------



## ballen0351 (May 31, 2014)

arnisador said:


> I think there's something to this. That's a lot of aggression, confidence, and mass to deal with, esp. for people who haven't really "thrown down" before.
> 
> What long, loose, powerful swings he has--reminds me of a really long-range crane style.




:feedtroll


----------



## drop bear (May 31, 2014)

arnisador said:


> I think there's something to this. That's a lot of aggression, confidence, and mass to deal with, esp. for people who haven't really "thrown down" before.
> 
> What long, loose, powerful swings he has--reminds me of a really long-range crane style.



So the rule to winning a street fight is.

A. Be bigger than the other guy.

B. Have more numbers.

C. Fight them crane style.


----------



## drop bear (May 31, 2014)

bluewaveschool said:


> UFC guys don't side kick to the knee because fighting is how they make their living.  Doing that on purpose is a sure fire way to make sure everyone steers clear of you and you starve to death.  They hurt each other, but the goal isn't to put the other guy through surgery and months of PT.





Knee kicks sound really effective I am surprised you don't see it used more often. 

Must be really complicated to learn or something.


----------



## drop bear (May 31, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> As to calling cops we don't care here I'm not sure why your cops would give problems to management.  It part of the job.  The only time I get pissed with bouncers is when they hit people off their property.   Not that they hit someone because most likely they deserve it but because I don't like arresting or charging bouncers.  We have a lot of bars that don't have any property beyond the door it open right to the sidewalk and street so we keep stressing to then don't cross the door shove them out and shut the door.  Some get too amped up and keep shoving them down the sidewalk away from the bar.  I understand why they just cant




We have a duty of care to the public and so have a duty to controls the duchebags that come out of our club.

The David hooks case is one of the highest profile examples of that.

7.30 Report - 12/09/2005: Micevic cleared of killing cricketer David Hookes

One of my worst personal story of police just not caring was a guy who tried to jump off the roof of a car par. I clamped him as he ran for the edge and called the cops.

And nobody came.

After a while we both got bored with the concept and I let him go.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Knee kicks sound really effective I am surprised you don't see it used more often.
> 
> Must be really complicated to learn or something.



I sense a touch of sarcasm there. They are in fact very simple, you just need to be accurate. My instructor used one when a guy tried to grab him from behind once, that was all he needed. there are some very good reasons you do not see them very often:

1) The lack of variety in your experiences.
2) Too much exposure to sport in lieu of self defence methods, most leg kicks in combat sporting matches are aimed at the thighs to prevent serious injury.
3) Lack of opportunity of kicks to the knee being caught on video due to the sudden nature of attacks in the street where kicks to the knee would be utilized in self defence.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> I sense a touch of sarcasm there. They are in fact very simple, you just need to be accurate. My instructor used one when a guy tried to grab him from behind once, that was all he needed. there are some very good reasons you do not see them very often:
> 
> 1) The lack of variety in your experiences.
> 2) Too much exposure to sport in lieu of self defence methods, most leg kicks in combat sporting matches are aimed at the thighs to prevent serious injury.
> 3) Lack of opportunity of kicks to the knee being caught on video due to the sudden nature of attacks in the street where kicks to the knee would be utilized in self defence.




You think?

Is there any examples of knee kicks being successful? Given the devastating nature of them. I mean it is just strange because you really do see a lot of unorthodox non sport moves like head butts and groin kicks throat chops eye gouges. Even flying kicks.

But no knee kicks.

Except for John Jones and that is sport.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6r27t7loW5I


----------



## donnaTKD (Jun 1, 2014)

in muay thai you taught knee kicks cos they form part of kick training - knee's, thighs, waist, chin.  they don't get used much cos they're easy enough to block and with the primary stance that's used in muay thai you'd have no problems defending such a kick.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We have a duty of care to the public and so have a duty to controls the duchebags that come out of our club.


Different country different rules I guess here once they leave they are no longer your duty.  Here however it's also illegal to keep selling alcohol to people that are drunk.  If that rule were enforced a little more often the bouncers jobs would be alot easier.


> The David hooks case is one of the highest profile examples of that.
> 
> 7.30 Report - 12/09/2005: Micevic cleared of killing cricketer David Hookes


Ok?


> One of my worst personal story of police just not caring was a guy who tried to jump off the roof of a car par. I clamped him as he ran for the edge and called the cops.
> 
> And nobody came.
> 
> After a while we both got bored with the concept and I let him go.


You guys need better cops then.  However not coming and not caring are not the same thing.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Different country different rules I guess here once they leave they are no longer your duty.  Here however it's also illegal to keep selling alcohol to people that are drunk.  If that rule were enforced a little more often the bouncers jobs would be alot easier.
> 
> Ok?
> 
> You guys need better cops then.  However not coming and not caring are not the same thing.



We compete against the patronage. They try to drink we try to stop them. That in itself is a scenario that will lead to conflict.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But no knee kicks.
> 
> Except for John Jones and that is sport.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6r27t7loW5I



Those two basic kicks shown in the video are not really fully committed to breaking the leg, they are more like I would use to keep my opponent at a distance and stop them charging forward. If you notice, he does not chamber his leg very much and only does a shallow thrust. Breaking the leg is more easily performed from the side unless the front leg is straight, which is why you should always bend your knees in a stance.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Those two basic kicks shown in the video are not really fully committed to breaking the leg, they are more like I would use to keep my opponent at a distance and stop them charging forward. If you notice, he does not chamber his leg very much and only does a shallow thrust. Breaking the leg is more easily performed from the side unless the front leg is straight, which is why you should always bend your knees in a stance.



Yet you never seem to see it get done.

That kick is pretty chambered.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtLwU16-3s


----------



## Gnarlie (Jun 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Yet you never seem to see it get done.
> 
> That kick is pretty chambered.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtLwU16-3s








Also this one. Discretion advised:






Like I say, I think it's sort of a martial myth - I think these are more coincidental than anything. Very difficult to engineer such a situation deliberately. The majority of knee breaks out there on video are poorly executed takedowns where the person being taken down lands at a bad angle with their lower leg folded under them.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We compete against the patronage. They try to drink we try to stop them. That in itself is a scenario that will lead to conflict.



That's what I'm saying it's illegal to serve someone to the point of intoxication.   If you don't let then get to that point it's easier for everyone.  The bartender can be arrested and fined for serving someone too much.  I'm not sure if you have laws like that their we do and I can only think of one time it was ever enforced and that was only because a woman drank herself into a coma


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 1, 2014)

I'm not sure why people think the knee must break to end the fight.  Hyper extension to the side or front without breaking still hurts enough to stop a fight.   A nice knee sprain will weaken the joint enough to drop someone and need a few weeks of rest with no breakage


----------



## ST1Doppelganger (Jun 1, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Also this one. Discretion advised:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Andy Hug was my favorite K1 fighter its a shame he passed at such a young age from leukemia.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> That's what I'm saying it's illegal to serve someone to the point of intoxication.   If you don't let then get to that point it's easier for everyone.  The bartender can be arrested and fined for serving someone too much.  I'm not sure if you have laws like that their we do and I can only think of one time it was ever enforced and that was only because a woman drank herself into a coma



Yeah but you wind up with pretty much the same problem. We say no or the bartender says no and you still wind up out the front punching on with the guy.

Meanwhile the patron is in there to get drunk. They pre drink before they go out. They smuggle drinks in,hide when they are drunk,get their friends to buy the drinks for them. If they get caught they will argue and fight to stay in. Once they are out they will trespass to sneak back in.
It is a scenario that is about as us them as you can make a scenario. 

And in a fight it is a pretty even match. We are not protected by law  do not have defensive tools and in gener have to fight people without hurting them.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not sure why people think the knee must break to end the fight.  Hyper extension to the side or front without breaking still hurts enough to stop a fight.   A nice knee sprain will weaken the joint enough to drop someone and need a few weeks of rest with no breakage



I have seen guys finish fights with some shonkey knees. It doesn't usually stop the guy until the next day.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 1, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Also this one. Discretion advised:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I put it down as a viable shot. Just not the monster killing fight ender that people seem to think it is. And in the OPs post you would really want that shot to work.


----------



## MJS (Jun 2, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Also he had friends helping him attack the bouncers and it appears that only 2 of the bouncers were knocked down anyway.



Good point.  Sadly, this is the case in many situations like this.


----------



## MJS (Jun 2, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Well theres still no knee kick KO in UFC. Only guys that hurt their own legs when trying to kick.
> 
> Knees are not that woulnerable in a fight, because you move lightly on your toes.



Oddly enough, that guy didn't seem to me, like he moved too lightly.


----------



## MJS (Jun 2, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Black belt would use too complicated technics and overthink.



Only if they haven't been trained properly.  



> This guy just hits hard, even if you use a fancy block, he will hurt you. Just hit threw it.



And again, you're comparing guys with no fighting experience, to this punk.  You think that just because he's big and hits hard, that he is unstoppable?  I think you're living in fantasy land.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I have seen guys finish fights with some shonkey knees. It doesn't usually stop the guy until the next day.


Then they were not hit hard enough.  Look believe what you want Ive taken people down and ended fights with shot to the side or back of the knee.  Even easier when its a big fat drunk guy taking wild swings off balance.


----------



## MJS (Jun 2, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Yes sure, but if it really is such a good trick to break the knees, then why does it never happen in the UFC. It seems really harder to do than most like to think.



Dude, are you just here to troll?  Because if so, you'll be on a fast track to getting banned!  Perhaps you should refresh yourself with the rules that YOU agreed to, upon joining this forum!  

That said, are you another "If it doesn't happen in the UFC, then it can never happen" guy?  Nothing is a sure shot.  That said, the knees are 1 option of many.  Of course, anyone with any quality training should already know that.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Then they were not hit hard enough.  Look believe what you want Ive taken people down and ended fights with shot to the side or back of the knee.  Even easier when its a big fat drunk guy taking wild swings off balance.



Easier because he has more weight on the knee due to his size. He will not be able to put any significant portion of his weight on a damaged, weakened knee.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 2, 2014)

I've studied from a lot of instructors who told me to kick someone in the knee and break it as a primary means of self-defense but can't remember anyone ever telling me they've used it in a real scenario to that effect. My thought is you can get some pain there but doing structural damage is an unlikely outcome in a real encounter--and with big, drunk guys esp., I'm looking to do things that must make them stop, not things that make them hurt.


----------



## MJS (Jun 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you wind up with pretty much the same problem. We say no or the bartender says no and you still wind up out the front punching on with the guy.
> 
> Meanwhile the patron is in there to get drunk. They pre drink before they go out. They smuggle drinks in,hide when they are drunk,get their friends to buy the drinks for them. If they get caught they will argue and fight to stay in. Once they are out they will trespass to sneak back in.
> It is a scenario that is about as us them as you can make a scenario.
> ...



All things that are very possible.  However, the bouncers in my area, aren't there to trade punches with some drunk idiot.  If the drunk idiot, is still being an idiot after being removed, then the cops are called, and they're arrested.


----------



## MJS (Jun 2, 2014)

arnisador said:


> I've studied from a lot of instructors who told me to kick someone in the knee and break it as a primary means of self-defense but can't remember anyone ever telling me they've used it in a real scenario to that effect. My thought is you can get some pain there but doing structural damage is an unlikely outcome in a real encounter--and with big, drunk guys esp., I'm looking to do things that must make them stop, not things that make them hurt.



Me too! It's amazing how much fallacy is floating around in dojos today.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 2, 2014)

arnisador said:


> I've studied from a lot of instructors who told me to kick someone in the knee and break it as a primary means of self-defense but can't remember anyone ever telling me they've used it in a real scenario to that effect.



My instructor told me the same thing, then he told me about when he kicked back on someone's knee who tried to grab him (in a real scenario) and it worked. Must be something to it.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 2, 2014)

bluewaveschool said:


> UFC guys don't side kick to the knee because fighting is how they make their living.  Doing that on purpose is a sure fire way to make sure everyone steers clear of you and you starve to death.  They hurt each other, but the goal isn't to put the other guy through surgery and months of PT.



I kind of wish people would refrain from making up "just so" stories to explain things in fields where they don't have knowledge or experience.

The idea that professional MMA fighters have without discussion decided en masse to refrain from using a winning technique that is perfectly legal under the rules, because they are afraid they might injure their opponents, is frankly ludicrous. I know and have trained with a number of MMA fighters. Most of them are pretty nice guys and don't especially want to injure their opponents. That said, they do want to win and they will do what it takes within the rules they are fighting under to make that happen. 

There are plenty of MMA fighters who have proven their willingness and ability to break legs (and other body parts) in the cage. They have not ended up unable to find opponents and starving.

There are several high-level fighters who sometimes use side kicks to the knee. (Anderson Silva and Jon Jones come to mind.)

The fact is, against a well-conditioned, well-trained fighter in a good fighting stance it is extremely hard to hyperextend the knee with a side kick or to get an angle which would allow major damage.  That's not to say a side kick to the knee isn't a valid self-defense technique, just that it's very low percentage against a professional fighter.

Gnarlie posted a cool video of Andy Hug finishing a fight with a spin kick to the knee. It looks impressive, but if you watch the fight you realize that Hug had already severely damaged his opponent's knee with round kicks to the leg. His opponent could barely stand on the leg at that point and the spin kick was just the finishing touch.


----------



## Pwen Arye (Jun 2, 2014)

Kofo said:


> Bingo ! Because they are afraid and psyched out.
> 
> To bad that there wasnt some Bill Gatesesque black belt there to show them.



I had a response to this thread written out, but after reading the OP's one sentence arguments it's pretty obvious this is a troll post. If you want to talk about this like a big boy bring better debating skills. If not, then can someone please ban him?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 2, 2014)

arnisador said:


> I've studied from a lot of instructors who told me to kick someone in the knee and break it as a primary means of self-defense but can't remember anyone ever telling me they've used it in a real scenario to that effect. My thought is you can get some pain there but doing structural damage is an unlikely outcome in a real encounter--and with big, drunk guys esp., I'm looking to do things that must make them stop, not things that make them hurt.


You dont need to physically break anything to be effective 
joints bend 1 way.  You force it to go any other way far enough the big fella wont be able to put weight on it not due to pain but just structurally it wont support it with out buckling.  Or a move I use alot at ork is to hit the back of the knee in the bend and drive the knee with my foot into the ground, use my knee of same leg into the hip and forearm on back of neck driving upper body down as well.  Doing that on a hard surface will take the fight out of alot of people.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 2, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The fact is, against a well-conditioned, well-trained fighter in a good fighting stance it is extremely hard to hyperextend the knee with a side kick or to get an angle which would allow major damage.  That's not to say a side kick to the knee isn't a valid self-defense technique, just that it's very low percentage against a professional fighter.
> 
> .


THIS is the point here.  This guy isnt a trained well conditioned fighter.  Every technique will be harder to pull off against a trained fight.  A drunk brawler is NOT a well trained fighter


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> THIS is the point here.  This guy isnt a trained well conditioned fighter.  Every technique will be harder to pull off against a trained fight.  A drunk brawler is NOT a well trained fighter



I totally agree. I was responding to bluewaveschool's assertion that UFC fighters were refraining from using side kicks to the knee because they would hurt their opponents.

As far as the guy in the original video, eh. You could probably do some damage to him with a well-placed powerful kick to the knee. The trick is doing it without eating one of those big right hands in the process. It's easy to dismiss guys like that as fat, sloppy, and untrained. Tank Abbott showed that it's possible for a fat, sloppy, untrained guy to be dangerous even to experienced martial artists.

I'm not saying this guy is necessarily as tough as a Tank Abbott. I am saying that judging from the relaxation and accuracy in his punches he has probably been in a lot of fights and is mentally comfortable being in a brawl. I try never to underestimate guys like that or think that just because I have a lot more technique that they can't be dangerous.


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 2, 2014)

In Wing Chun we call these kicks to the knee or shin , low heel kicks.
They are one of the first kicks you learn , they can be used in conjunction with hand striking and trapping the hands.

They are fast , powerful , and can cause quite a lot of pain when the kicker has shoes on.
It doesn't have to break the leg , shatter the knee cap or even sprain the leg.

It only has to cause pain , a momentary distraction so that you can get in and finish them off with your hands.
Get a hammer and give yourself a tap at the top of the shin and you will have some idea of what it feels like.
Or walk into the edge of a low coffee table.

I think people are imagining that the technique is used in isolation and then you stand back and see what the effect has or has not been.
It is not that at all , it is always swiftly followed by chain punching or a rapid barrage of various types of low kicks.

But it is also not out of the realm of possibility that the person may be dropped from the low heel kick , you just don't bank on it , always follow up straight away with more techniques.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 2, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I totally agree. I was responding to bluewaveschool's assertion that UFC fighters were refraining from using side kicks to the knee because they would hurt their opponents.


Yeah I was just thinking that samee thing when I read your post it was a good point.


> As far as the guy in the original video, eh. You could probably do some damage to him with a well-placed powerful kick to the knee. The trick is doing it without eating one of those big right hands in the process. It's easy to dismiss guys like that as fat, sloppy, and untrained. Tank Abbott showed that it's possible for a fat, sloppy, untrained guy to be dangerous even to experienced martial artists.
> 
> I'm not saying this guy is necessarily as tough as a Tank Abbott. I am saying that judging from the relaxation and accuracy in his punches he has probably been in a lot of fights and is mentally comfortable being in a brawl. I try never to underestimate guys like that or think that just because I have a lot more technique that they can't be dangerous.


Tank Abbots not a great example he wrestled for years and was a Junior College all American, He also trained in boxing and although he was overweight he was not really sloppy and fat he worked out and trained.
  I also didnt think the guy in the OP was very accurate in his punches most missed or did no real damage.  It looked like his buddy did more damage sucker punching people deal with the big guy.  Ill watch the clip again maybe I dont remember it right but I remember only a few good hits the rest were just sloppy off balance hay makers


----------



## arnisador (Jun 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> You dont need to physically break anything to be effective
> joints bend 1 way.  You force it to go any other way far enough the big fella wont be able to put weight on it not due to pain but just structurally it wont support it with out buckling.  Or a move I use alot at ork is to hit the back of the knee in the bend and drive the knee with my foot into the ground, use my knee of same leg into the hip and forearm on back of neck driving upper body down as well.  Doing that on a hard surface will take the fight out of alot of people.



No argument that kicking the knee can work, but I was told many times by karate instructors esp. that their side kick would "break" the knee and that "A man that can't stand, can't fight" as one often put it to me. I think the _structural damage_ aspect is often oversold...but that damage (disruption) to their structure (stance) is often viable. But I just don't see the parade of people being carted away by ambulances bc they physically cannot stand after a fight due to permanent damage to the knee.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 2, 2014)

arnisador said:


> No argument that kicking the knee can work, but I was told many times by karate instructors esp. that their side kick would "break" the knee and that "A man that can't stand, can't fight" as one often put it to me. I think the _structural damage_ aspect is often oversold...but that damage (disruption) to their structure (stance) is often viable. But I just don't see the parade of people being carted away by ambulances bc they physically cannot stand after a fight due to permanent damage to the knee.


Fair enough I've never heard any of my teachers tell me that so I cant say.  Ive been taught the knee kick as a set up to be used in combo to end a fight quickly.  As someone else said just kicking once and stopping to watch may be a bad idea.  But a poweful knee strike will do enough damage that they may not be carted away in an a,bo but they will def be limping and stepping gingerly.  Ive been nursing a knee injury now for about 6 weeks it suck and all I did was twist it in a pot hole


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Yeah I was just thinking that samee thing when I read your post it was a good point.
> 
> Tank Abbots not a great example he wrestled for years and was a Junior College all American, He also trained in boxing and although he was overweight he was not really sloppy and fat he worked out and trained.
> I also didnt think the guy in the OP was very accurate in his punches most missed or did no real damage.  It looked like h*is buddy did more damage sucker punching people deal with the big guy.*  Ill watch the clip again maybe I dont remember it right but I remember only a few good hits the rest were just sloppy off balance hay makers



An important lesson there. If for some reason you have to be involved in a mass melee and can't leave the situation, you're much better off being the guy who is taking people out opportunistically from behind than the guy who is squaring off exchanging punches.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 2, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> An important lesson there. If for some reason you have to be involved in a mass melee and can't leave the situation, you're much better off being the guy who is taking people out opportunistically from behind than the guy who is squaring off exchanging punches.


Which is what I though was odd the bouncers were going on the guy one on one.  All the bouncers I know work in teams and I know for a fact you mess with me Im calling friends


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 2, 2014)

Folks, let's back off the shots and labels of "troll."  Don't think the guy is going to be productive or drive you nuts... don't view the tread, OK.  RTM posts that we should know about, and let the staff handle 'em.

*Attention All Users:

Please keep the converstaons polite and respectful.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator
*


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 2, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> *Attention All Users:
> 
> Please keep the converstaons polite and respectful.
> 
> *



It's a pity that has to be said so often.


----------



## geezer (Jun 2, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> It's a pity that has to be said so often.



On the other hand, I'm glad we remind each other before things start to get out of hand and keep the atmosphere of this forum so much better than on some other places. Now I shall make a very profound contribution to this thread, one I learned in about 5th grade.

_"Rah rah ree, kick 'em in the knee."
"Rah rah rass, kick 'em in the  ...other knee"_

That said, most of the time I prefer to keep both my feet on the ground, especially if facing a big strong guy who can knock you down.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 2, 2014)

geezer said:


> On the other hand, I'm glad we remind each other before things start to get out of hand and keep the atmosphere of this forum so much better than on some other places. Now I shall make a very profound contribution to this thread, one I learned in about 5th grade.
> 
> _"Rah rah ree, kick 'em in the knee."
> "Rah rah rass, kick 'em in the  ...other knee"_
> ...



Yes better to be on the ground than in your mouth.


----------



## blindsage (Jun 2, 2014)

And you can still lose.





But really the biggest example that works for this discussion is Kimbo Slice.  He's a scary dude, but his fight record against people with little to no training is really high, versus his fight record against people with training.  Even with training, even when he wins, he's a lot less impressive than he was against street brawlers.  Not that I want to fight him.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 2, 2014)

arnisador said:


> No argument that kicking the knee can work, but I was told many times by karate instructors esp. that their side kick would "break" the knee and that "A man that can't stand, can't fight" as one often put it to me. I think the _structural damage_ aspect is often oversold...but that damage (disruption) to their structure (stance) is often viable. But I just don't see the parade of people being carted away by ambulances bc they physically cannot stand after a fight due to permanent damage to the knee.




Which was the line that a lot of the knee kicking posts on this thread seemed to be taking.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 2, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> An important lesson there. If for some reason you have to be involved in a mass melee and can't leave the situation, you're much better off being the guy who is taking people out opportunistically from behind than the guy who is squaring off exchanging punches.



And standing up does not allways prevent you getting smashed by the obligatory five jump in guys who hang around every fight


----------



## Buka (Jun 3, 2014)

Reviewing this whole thread I think the poster's only intention was was to get a rise out of us. I took that bait, hook, line and sinker.

I certainly hope that's the case, because if it isn't - the poor guy obviously didn't train in a very good dojo. A pity, that.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jun 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And standing up does not allways prevent you getting smashed by the obligatory five jump in guys who hang around every fight


No but its a whole lot easier to defend it then being on the ground but we have beat that topic to death


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 3, 2014)

Buka said:


> Reviewing this whole thread I think the poster's only intention was was to get a rise out of us. I took that bait, hook, line and sinker.
> 
> I certainly hope that's the case, because if it isn't - the poor guy obviously didn't train in a very good dojo. A pity, that.



I'm not sure whether Kofo trains or has ever trained in any martial art. Looking back through his posts he seems to be a UFC fan with lots of concerns about big bad mean street fighters. I don't see anywhere that he mentions actually training in anything.


----------



## qianfeng (Jun 4, 2014)

After watching this video it seems this guys huge looping punch looks kinda Pigua zhang lol.


----------



## MJS (Jun 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And standing up does not allways prevent you getting smashed by the obligatory five jump in guys who hang around every fight



That's true, and neither does going to the ground!  That is why it's important to always assess each situation accordingly.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 4, 2014)

qianfeng said:


> After watching this video it seems this guys huge looping punch looks kinda Pigua zhang lol.



I think Kung Fu Panda there is a bit more controlled.


----------



## donnaTKD (Jun 4, 2014)

i agree with your observations around kung fu panda 

thinking that most of these big guys could do with some serious training too 

most of the guys that are in the gym i use are well built slim guys


----------



## donald1 (Jun 4, 2014)

Apologies if offended but in my opinion i didn't see much fighting?   It looked like constant punching,  but fighting is so much more than punches you have to either block or get out of the way of their punches and use a variety of techniques other wise the punches can be easily countered (I'm probably going to disagree)


----------



## donald1 (Jun 4, 2014)

qianfeng said:


> After watching this video it seems this guys huge looping punch looks kinda Pigua zhang lol.



Just curious,  what style is that?


----------



## donnaTKD (Jun 5, 2014)

it's panda stylee


----------



## blindsage (Jun 5, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Just curious, what style is that?





qianfeng said:


> Pigua zhang lol.


There you go.


----------



## qianfeng (Jun 5, 2014)

It is as the title suggest Pi Gua Zhang &#21128;&#25346;&#25484; chopping and hanging palm. Basic strikes are Pi a chopping attack going downwards and Gua a palm attack upwards. I learn it to compliment baji quan


----------



## jorgemp (Jun 5, 2014)

Mark Hunt was discovered due to a similar fight:

Mark Hunt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> He had no intention to be a professional fighter until a late night altercation outside a nightclub in Auckland changed the course of his life.[SUP][3][/SUP]The brawl did not last long. Sam Marsters, one of the bouncers at the door was impressed by the young man's knockout power and invited him to his gym to take up formal training


----------



## drop bear (Jun 5, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> Mark Hunt was discovered due to a similar fight:
> 
> Mark Hunt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




But as an example of trained vs untrained. Mark hunt would kill that guy.


----------



## jorgemp (Jun 7, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But as an example of trained vs untrained. Mark hunt would kill that guy.



When Mark Hunt was untrained, he was similar to that guy. A trained actual Mark Hunt, of course, is better than that guy.

But Mark was beaten by DosSantos with one of the supposedly more ineffective taekwondo kicks:


----------



## K-man (Jun 7, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not sure why people think the knee must break to end the fight.  Hyper extension to the side or front without breaking still hurts enough to stop a fight.   A nice knee sprain will weaken the joint enough to drop someone and need a few weeks of rest with no breakage


I remember a game of football I played many years back. I ran into a pack, fell to the ground and couldn't stand up. I had been knocked on the side of the knee, not hard, no pain but totally debilitating. Don't ever discount the value of a kick to the side of the knee.
:asian:


----------



## icemaster2340 (Aug 1, 2014)

Ok I didn't bother to read through all 10 pages of replies, but am I seriously the only who's thought of KICKING THE FAT WANKER IN HIS GONADS? 

I don't think I've seen any person (without a groin cup) not react to a kick down to his family jewels, be he the friggin hulk or the top MMA fighter of the world. 

And no I don't think that's an honorable tactic but if a guy that big starts whaling at me, then I'm kind of fighting for my life there... Also I practice Krav Maga and groin kicks are kind of our mantra.


----------



## geezer (Aug 2, 2014)

icemaster2340 said:


> Ok I didn't bother to read through all 10 pages of replies, but am I seriously the only who's thought of KICKING THE FAT WANKER IN HIS GONADS?
> 
> *I don't think I've seen any person (without a groin cup) not react to a kick down to his family jewels, be he the friggin hulk or the top MMA fighter of the world*.
> 
> And no I don't think that's an honorable tactic but if a guy that big starts whaling at me, then I'm kind of fighting for my life there... Also I practice Krav Maga and groin kicks are kind of our mantra.



Apparently this debate is as old as mankind. I just posted this photo on another thread, but it seems to speak directly to your post (see bolded section above) so I'm re-posting it here:


The "friggin Hulk" of classical mythology was _Hercules_. When he was attacked in the groin, he just gritted his teeth and crushed his opponent. LOL

WTF Art History: Cop a Feel of Hercules' Family Jewels


----------



## elder999 (Aug 2, 2014)

icemaster2340 said:


> Ok I didn't bother to read through all 10 pages of replies, but am I seriously the only who's thought of KICKING THE FAT WANKER IN HIS GONADS?
> 
> I don't think I've seen any person (without a groin cup) not react to a kick down to his family jewels, be he the friggin hulk or the top MMA fighter of the world.
> 
> And no I don't think that's an honorable tactic but if a guy that big starts whaling at me, then I'm kind of fighting for my life there... Also I practice Krav Maga and groin kicks are kind of our mantra.



If a person has any experience, they've experienced this-and fought through it each time. 

"A lick in the nads?"  Yeah, sure, it sucks, but it's only pain-it's rarely incapacitating. 

And the fellows themselves? Not exactly an easy target-you can train for a groin kick, but if a person has any experience and training, they can pretty much defend against it or  minimize it is with their body positioning.

I've seen people shrug it off, just as I've seen people shrug off a punch to the nose.


----------



## ZapEm (Aug 2, 2014)

The guy has more than just the advantages of weight and power. He's chemically enhanced with the right amount of alcohol (lower inhibitions, relaxed muscles and positive adrenal dump). He's also trying to really do damage when he strikes. The willingness to do more damage than your opponent is a real advantage. Doormen don't train to fight, or even train in self-defense. Their hands are tied by the law - they're just regular citizens and they can be arrested and charged with assault, as they often are. They are trained to talk down a situation and de-escalate it though. In this situation, the heavy guy is outdoors and off the premises. 99% of doormen would consider the job done at this point, and wouldn't be looking for a fight. Also, from the video, it seems the heavy guy just has one technique - a wide haymaker - and I wouldn't be so sure he's a boxer.

That said, the main point of the OP stands in my opinion.


----------



## Marnetmar (Aug 2, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> In Wing Chun we call these kicks to the knee or shin , low heel kicks.
> They are one of the first kicks you learn , they can be used in conjunction with hand striking and trapping the hands.
> 
> They are fast , powerful , and can cause quite a lot of pain when the kicker has shoes on.
> ...



One of the problems with the pain argument I find is that if the aggressor is intoxicated, pain often won't be an issue, or even a distraction for them.


----------



## elder999 (Aug 2, 2014)

ZapEm said:


> The guy has more than just the advantages of weight and power. He's chemically enhanced with the right amount of alcohol (lower inhibitions, relaxed muscles and positive adrenal dump). He's also trying to really do damage when he strikes. The willingness to do more damage than your opponent is a real advantage. Doormen don't train to fight, or even train in self-defense. Their hands are tied by the law - they're just regular citizens and they can be arrested and charged with assault, as they often are. They are trained to talk down a situation and de-escalate it though. In this situation, the heavy guy is outdoors and off the premises. 99% of doormen would consider the job done at this point, and wouldn't be looking for a fight. Also, from the video, it seems the heavy guy just has one technique - a wide haymaker - and I wouldn't be so sure he's a boxer.
> 
> That said, the main point of the OP stands in my opinion.



1) The mention of the professionalism of the security staff is pretty spot on-they shouldn't be out there, and, more to the point, if they trained together properly, they would simply have overcome him with  mass-not "fighting," simply immobilizing, and then tossing him out-which may well be what happened before all this.As for this guy, he clearly isn't_ trained _to handle multiple opponents- he's just chanced upon making the first strategy for that situation work: he's taking them on one at a time.

2) "Chemical enhancement" does nothing against trauma, usually: most people, no matter how enhanced, simply aren't going to be capable of standing with a broken leg, let alone fight-depending upon the break......

As for the OP, it leads to several questions: 90% of _which_ "black belts? T

Tae Kwon Do black belts? _Which_ tae kwon do black belts? Kyokushin black belts? Judo black belts?  Jujutsu black belts? 
(THis is funny, coming from a Kyokushin, judo and jujutsu black belt , boxer, with a black belt in tae kwon do.....but I'm a congenital klutz: either that guy would cream me, or I would *kill* him...:lfao: )

You get my point though-there's all kinds of black belts, so "90% of Black belts" is a B.S. statement...though I have to agree that quite a few people who attain rank in martial art have never been hit, and have never been in a fight in the street.....

.....that;s kinda part of what martial arts are about, I thought...


----------



## mook jong man (Aug 3, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> One of the problems with the pain argument I find is that if the aggressor is intoxicated, pain often won't be an issue, or even a distraction for them.



That is true Marnetmar.
Alcohol and drugs can make people impervious to pain.
But a low heel kick also works on another level , as a physical barrier , it can halt the opponents forward momentum.
For a split second the opponent cannot move forward and cannot get into proper punching range because your leg is stopping him from stepping forward.
May just give you an opportunity to move in very close and control the situation.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 3, 2014)

Look you are pretty much not going to.Just drop a guy with a martial arts kill move.

Not reliably anyway.


----------



## Buka (Aug 3, 2014)

ZapEm said:


> That said, the main point of the OP stands in my opinion.



I'm curious how you arrive at that opinion. Your profile says you don't currently train. Did you train at one time?


----------



## Balrog (Aug 3, 2014)

I have to disagree.   If any of those bouncers had known how to fight, that guy would have been hauled off in an ambulance.


----------



## donnaTKD (Aug 3, 2014)

the problem is that as soon as the doorman touches him when he's outside he'll be the one facing charges at the cop shop.

the guy is off the premises --- i still don't understand why the doorstaff are still taking him on --- the doorstaff should've just formed a blockade of the door cos that's where their jurisdiction starts and stops.

forget about the intoxicated a$$hole that's swinging at everything --- he's out on the street --- end of - not a doorstaff problem it's a problem for the cops to sort out.


----------



## ZapEm (Aug 3, 2014)

Buka said:


> I'm curious how you arrive at that opinion. Your profile says you don't currently train. Did you train at one time?



Yes, I did. There are some observations I made from my own experience which, when put together, made my opinion on this fight clip and the OP's remark come naturally to me. Some of these observations are:

1) Fighting (for real) is a very uncertain proposition within which there are many variables involved, including skill among many others. 
2) Skill is actually a variable of lesser importance. Power, speed, endurance, pain tolerance, motivation, psychopathy and experience have more to do with actual fighting than skill (which is why a brawl will never resemble a martial arts competition but may involve techniques learned in martial arts).
3) It's easier for the law-abiding and sedentary majority to develop fighting skill (i.e. isolated bio-mechanical skills) than to develop any of those other fighting attributes. It's the other way around for someone with childhood trauma or abusive parents, who find those other attributes easier to develop. This is for many reasons, including the predisposition to spend time, effort and money in a disciplined and orderly environment led by a teacher. This is a habit learned from school and college, and it's a successful habit in most areas of endeavour but less optimal _for learning how to fight for real _than the brutal environments of prisons, broken homes, bad neighbourhoods, local boxing gyms, etc. It's not useless but it's less useful than those more chaotic, risky and unpleasant learning environments. 
4) The OP mentioned black belts. Human beings are social animals, and the black belt represents the end of inferiority within any martial arts school that's imported the Japanese kyu and dan system (i.e. all other colours are inferior to black). Our complex social codes have resulted in a situation where the only martial arts grade that matters is the black belt. Having a black belt in anything confers authority through an apparent expertise. On martial arts forums, for example, nobody is advertising their kyu grade in any martial art. Unfortunately the motivation to get a black belt often clouds the judgment of the martial arts trainee, who may recognise deficiencies in his sensei's martial art but will say nothing because they're "due" for a kyu grade assessment in a couple of weeks and have paid the membership in their association for a year already. I once trained in a martial art that taught spinning away and turning your back on an opponent in a fight. They taught that as a technique from day one. I walked away but could have stayed, have a bit of moderate-intensity exercise and walked away as a "combat expert" for only £15 a week. Walking away and training elsewhere was good for my learning but didn't get me the credibility of having a credential in an obscure martial art that has a lot of forum kudos and which some people seem to think gives you an otherworldly spiritual aura (in case you're interested, it was kalaripayat). 
5) The first martial art I trained in (not including judo) was Shotokan karate. I remember the black belts assembled during gradings, and while some of them seemed very good, others were more diverse. Less intensity and competence was required from children (in retrospect what were they doing giving dan grades to under-15s apart from lining their pockets?) and from all women regardless of fitness. A couple of the men were morbidly obese. All this was a long time ago (1990s). I see black belts today in many martial arts and I see many really awful fighters, who don't demonstrate an awareness of the realities of range, balance, power, etc. let alone proficiency. This is, I believe, because the dan grade is the only grade that matters in society, and martial arts that have traditional Japanese-style gradings aren't attracting "fighters" (who are, in my experience, generally really bad misanthropic types no matter what pedestal they're put on by others) but decent people (who are generally the products of successful conditioning, upbringing and education to live happily, healthily and responsibly in a peaceful society). On the other hand, plenty of people with "issues" hit a bag now and then, and some of them may attend a boxing gym or some other "fight club" type of martial art school that involves plenty of full-on contact and regular injuries. Two different worlds. One, unfortunately, turns out really challenging fighters. The other gives lots of respect and credibility (quite rightly so, because at least it proves someone is disciplined and perseveres for 3 years at something) but generally isn't a good return on investment in time and effort compared to more rough-and-ready training systems.
6) A lot of black belts aren't training in martial arts to be better fighters, or even to learn how to fight. They're performing techniques that require bodily control and a bit of mental concentration too. Swordsmanship arts are the best examples, although it exists in all empty hand arts as well. Also, for those people, it might not be just about discipline and learning movements that help externalise an internal conflict in a sort of therapeutic way, but it might also be about maintaining a link to a historic culture they're interested in or have inherited in some manner. I think that's an absolutely valid justification for studying a martial art, by the way. But again, it reduces the pressure on the art itself to be in any way combat-ready. The critical life-and-death environment isn't there. The evil/unjust psychology, cruelty, etc. never comes into it. Clowns on the street picking fights, especially in gangs, have lots of these problems giving them a fighting edge. In fact they never pick fights, only victims. The average black belt who likes the tradition, customs, social networking and other benefits of his martial art isn't a match for these guys. They are, unfortunately, better judges of physique, athleticism and fighting prowess than most martial artists, simply because they look for victims to hurt, without caring if someone is maimed or killed. And they don't train for these animal traits, they're born with them or have them beaten into them at some point.


----------



## Buka (Aug 3, 2014)

ZapEm said:


> Yes, I did. There are some observations I made from my own experience which, when put together, made my opinion on this fight clip and the OP's remark come naturally to me. Some of these observations are:
> 
> 1) Fighting (for real) is a very uncertain proposition within which there are many variables involved, including skill among many others.
> 2) Skill is actually a variable of lesser importance. Power, speed, endurance, pain tolerance, motivation, psychopathy and experience have more to do with actual fighting than skill (which is why a brawl will never resemble a martial arts competition but may involve techniques learned in martial arts).
> ...



Wow. That's a well thought out, articulate post. I really like it. And I'd like to discuss it. But first, if I may...
When I read it I smiled because I'm a film freak. It brought to mind a line from one of my favorite films, and as luck may have it, it the line was on youtube!






Please know I am not, in any way, shape or form, implying the right to over rule anything. Or to be disrespectful in any way. I just like movie lines. Hopefully you smiled. I'm hoping someone else did beside me. 

Okay, so let me ask you this. Would the guy shown in the original OP beat 90% of the black belts in the Shotokan school you went to, and 90% of the black belt Judokas you trained with?


----------



## K-man (Aug 3, 2014)

Seeing this thread seems to have second wind I'll put in my two cents worth. In a real fight you can't just say "I'll kick him in the knee" or " I'll kick him in the nuts". It just doesn't work that way. You have to use the opportunities you are given. Now this is a big guy with a long reach, fuelled with alcohol and not feeling pain. I doubt many people even get into the range for an effective kick without being hit first. Most of the bouncers played to his strength by stepping back, away from his swing, allowing him to follow. Only one stepped inside and he didn't have the skill to take the big guy down. 

I think the OP is right in that a lot of people would have problems dealing with this guy, and I'm not saying they would be beaten. However this guy did have at least two friends who came into it a couple of times also, so it wasn't just a simple fight. It is the type of brawl to keep well away from.

Let's look at his fighting style. Basically just a big swing of the right arm with a follow up left punch or kick given a target. There was a lot of weight behind that arm so whoever suggested simply blocking it is living in a dream world unless you are as big as him. So to my mind two options. Get inside the swing, tie up his right arm and get stuck in with the knee or evade the swing, move in behind it to take control of his head from the side or behind. From that position you can kick to the back of the knee. Bouncing around coming in and out like the guy on the roadway is never going to work against a brawler who will simply overpower you.
:asian:


----------



## jezr74 (Aug 4, 2014)

Most males I know can protect their twig and berries instinctively. No training required, just years of experience. Not to say it can't be done, I just wouldn't rely on it.

I can say personally, I would never target the area as a game plan, but as K-man mention, it's whats opportune when presented.


----------



## Sherman (Sep 2, 2014)

Just realized that there is a self defense forum here. *sheepish* Anyway, from a self defense perspective, if you ever get attacked by a guy like that, you have to do some acting (hey, anything to survive in a self defense situation otherwise it is not self defense and it's just ego). Offer to buy him and his friends a drink. If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting. Make sure to note where his two friends are. If they are blocking the exits, head for the drinks counter and armed yourself with more glasses which you can throw. Once you see them leaving the door, see if you can find a route where you can run circles around a table, hide behind pillars or get more objects to throw to avoid them and run out the door. Shout for help. Perhaps a group of people will help you or if not, someone will at least inform the police. I think that's a better self defense strategy than attempting to fight him fairly. This is not a competition and survival is key in self defense. The mindset is completely different from what martial arts teaches you. And if possible, don't get in a situation like this in the first place.


----------



## terryl965 (Sep 2, 2014)

Best self defense is not to be in that stituation


----------



## drop bear (Sep 2, 2014)

Sherman said:


> Just realized that there is a self defense forum here. *sheepish* Anyway, from a self defense perspective, if you ever get attacked by a guy like that, you have to do some acting (hey, anything to survive in a self defense situation otherwise it is not self defense and it's just ego). Offer to buy him and his friends a drink. If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting. Make sure to note where his two friends are. If they are blocking the exits, head for the drinks counter and armed yourself with more glasses which you can throw. Once you see them leaving the door, see if you can find a route where you can run circles around a table, hide behind pillars or get more objects to throw to avoid them and run out the door. Shout for help. Perhaps a group of people will help you or if not, someone will at least inform the police. I think that's a better self defense strategy than attempting to fight him fairly. This is not a competition and survival is key in self defense. The mindset is completely different from what martial arts teaches you. And if possible, don't get in a situation like this in the first place.



Help from who?

You have just glassed three people. I wouldn't help you.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2014)

Sherman said:


> Just realized that there is a self defense forum here. *sheepish* Anyway, from a self defense perspective, if you ever get attacked by a guy like that, you have to do some acting (hey, anything to survive in a self defense situation otherwise it is not self defense and it's just ego). Offer to buy him and his friends a drink. If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting. Make sure to note where his two friends are. If they are blocking the exits, head for the drinks counter and armed yourself with more glasses which you can throw. Once you see them leaving the door, see if you can find a route where you can run circles around a table, hide behind pillars or get more objects to throw to avoid them and run out the door. Shout for help. Perhaps a group of people will help you or if not, someone will at least inform the police. I think that's a better self defense strategy than attempting to fight him fairly. This is not a competition and survival is key in self defense. The mindset is completely different from what martial arts teaches you. And if possible, don't get in a situation like this in the first place.



And then, after following your advice...


----------



## Sherman (Sep 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> And then, after following your advice...



LOL Yup, the guys who tried to beat you up will go to prison. 

Remember that I said, "If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified,"
Most of the time, they will be pacified so that's the perfect self defense starting with the right mindset so you will save everyone without having to fight. That's the one thing I like about Aikido and its philosophy - very self defense oriented.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2014)

Sherman said:


> LOL Yup, the guys who tried to beat you up will go to prison.
> 
> Remember that I said, "If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified,"
> Most of the time, they will be pacified so that's the perfect self defense starting with the right mindset so you will save everyone without having to fight. That's the one thing I like about Aikido and its philosophy - very self defense oriented.



Um... no... you sat down, bought drinks and hit him in the face with it. It will be YOU getting the frequent prostate exams after that...


----------



## Sherman (Sep 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Help from who?
> 
> You have just glassed three people. I wouldn't help you.



That's only if they still want to kill you after drinking and you have no other choice. Or maybe you need to protect someone you are with and you can't talk them out of harming the victim. It's all in the acting. Cry and scream for help! 3 big guys against one is valid self defense in court or would you rather prefer to die there? LOL


----------



## Sherman (Sep 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Um... no... you sat down, bought drinks and hit him in the face with it. It will be YOU getting the frequent prostate exams after that...


 
Same reply above. For goodness sake, if everything is settled, please don't him them in the face.  LOL


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2014)

Sherman said:


> Same reply above. For goodness sake, if everything is settled, please don't him them in the face.  LOL



You wrote:





> whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting.



For your sake, I hope the prison commissary stocks KY...


----------



## Sherman (Sep 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> You wrote:
> 
> For your sake, I hope the prison commissary stocks KY...



You are ignoring the first part of the sentence: "If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting." Once again, please don't whack the poor guy in the face unless you really have no other choice. Same with fighting the guy in the first place - you still end up in prison. Buying him drinks is a more self defense oriented way because you at least try to pacify him without fighting him first. Please remember the context of what I am saying - this big guy with his friends are attempting to beat you up for whatever reason outside. Perhaps they even cause a scene and throw a few punches. You back up, act friendly, and offer to buy them drinks. Then, you TALK to them (or at least the leader) trying to pacify him. If all else fails (maybe he still wants to rape your partner for example), then you whack him with the glass when he isn't suspecting. Better than you fighting him outside where he is prepared with his two friends.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 2, 2014)

Sherman said:


> That's only if they still want to kill you after drinking and you have no other choice. Or maybe you need to protect someone you are with and you can't talk them out of harming the victim. It's all in the acting. Cry and scream for help! 3 big guys against one is valid self defense in court or would you rather prefer to die there? LOL



They will want to kill you after glassing someone. 

Trying to glass everybody in the room is a really good way to get killed. Look go for it if you want. Let me know how you get on. But otherwise I will just leave this video out there as an example of what happens when you try to go too street on the street.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=okITakWaejU&has_verified=1&layout=tablet&client=mv-google


----------



## drop bear (Sep 2, 2014)

Sherman said:


> You are ignoring the first part of the sentence: "If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting." Once again, please don't whack the poor guy in the face unless you really have no other choice. Same with fighting the guy in the first place - you still end up in prison. Buying him drinks is a more self defense oriented way because you at least try to pacify him without fighting him first. Please remember the context of what I am saying - this big guy with his friends are attempting to beat you up for whatever reason outside. Perhaps they even cause a scene and throw a few punches. You back up, act friendly, and offer to buy them drinks. Then, you TALK to them (or at least the leader) trying to pacify him. If all else fails (maybe he still wants to rape your partner for example), then you whack him with the glass when he isn't suspecting. Better than you fighting him outside where he is prepared with his two friends.




Does this come up often? You go out for a drink and three random strangers try to rape your partner. You buy them drinks and then surprise glass everybody.


----------



## K-man (Sep 2, 2014)

Sherman said:


> That's only if they still want to kill you after drinking and you have no other choice. Or maybe you need to protect someone you are with and you can't talk them out of harming the victim. It's all in the acting. Cry and scream for help! 3 big guys against one is valid self defense in court or would you rather prefer to die there? LOL


Sure, you would have a lot of sympathy in court if you had been attacked by three people and defended yourself, even if you had picked up a chair for defence. In self defence there is something along the lines of 'reasonable force' in most legislation. If you start glassing people who are unarmed you will find yourself in court without a doubt. How you fare will be up to how much you can afford to pay for top legal representation because believe me you will need it if you're not going to end up with *DD*'s mate in a confined space. 




Sherman said:


> You are ignoring the first part of the sentence: "If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting." Once again, please don't whack the poor guy in the face unless you really have no other choice. Same with fighting the guy in the first place - you still end up in prison. Buying him drinks is a more self defense oriented way because you at least try to pacify him without fighting him first. Please remember the context of what I am saying - this big guy with his friends are attempting to beat you up for whatever reason outside. Perhaps they even cause a scene and throw a few punches. You back up, act friendly, and offer to buy them drinks. Then, you TALK to them (or at least the leader) trying to pacify him. If all else fails (maybe he still wants to rape your partner for example), then you whack him with the glass when he isn't suspecting. Better than you fighting him outside where he is prepared with his two friends.


Self defence may include the offer of buying someone a drink, but in this case? In this situation the guy is probably already drunk. Most places buying a drunk person another drink is an offence, at least from the seller's point of view. Even if you did buy him a drink you shouldn't be waiting around for him to finish it, and then to glass him, when he was unaware? Man, you have no defence. As to fighting him outside where he has his two friends? I can see no reason for any of these guys to be fighting. The security guys were not in their business premises. They could have just moved away. Testosterone and the perceived strength in numbers led them into making a bad move. And, again, why would they offer to buy him a drink? That would involve allowing him into their premises. And finally, security personnel glassing patrons ... :hmm:


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 3, 2014)

Okay, I'm going to break all of this up&#8230; there's a bit to address. Most of it's been touched on at least, but I'm going to be rather deconstructionist about it all&#8230; 



Sherman said:


> Just realized that there is a self defense forum here. *sheepish*



Okay, this is just because it kinda gets to me&#8230; you "just realised"??? I specifically pointed it out to you twice in your intro thread (going to head back to that in a bit, by the way&#8230 on the 7th and 24th of August&#8230; 



Sherman said:


> Anyway, from a self defense perspective, if you ever get attacked by a guy like that, you have to do some acting (hey, anything to survive in a self defense situation otherwise it is not self defense and it's just ego). Offer to buy him and his friends a drink.



No. While various forms of de-escalation, including trying to get them onside in such a form, are valid, in this instance you're well and truly past that point. So&#8230; no. From a self defence perspective, you've missed entirely the reality of the situation in the clip. You've also missed who's involved, and are suggesting a frankly poor method of getting them onside&#8230; the bouncers are either ejecting him (in which case, you wouldn't be in a position to invite him in for a drink), or he's being denied entry (in which case, you wouldn't be in a position to invite him in for a drink).

Frankly, this is you completely misreading the situation.



Sherman said:


> If after drinking, they still haven't been pacified, whack the guy in the face with your glass when he isn't suspecting.



There's absolutely no reality to this statement whatsoever. If he's been drinking with you (an unrealistic event considering the original clip&#8230; but we can forget that for a moment), then he's not threatening you&#8230; if he's still threatening you, he's not going to be drinking with you&#8230; the sheer incongruence of your hypothetical goes against all understanding of psychology&#8230; the only people who would agree to a drink, sit, then get aggressive again are sociopaths and psychopaths&#8230; in which case, you won't see the attack coming. But, let's say, against all reality, they sit down, have a drink, and then say something like "I'm still going to hurt you"&#8230; you're suggesting glassing him? Wow, is that an over-reaction&#8230; and tactically highly questionable, not to mention legally difficult to justify. 



Sherman said:


> Make sure to note where his two friends are.]/QUOTE]
> 
> What, now? No. Too late for that&#8230;
> 
> ...


----------



## Transk53 (Sep 3, 2014)

pgsmith said:


> I have to absolutely disagree with you. 99% of black belts (I also have brown belts, and one blue braided cotton one that I wear on occassion, but you didn't mention those) would have enough brains to avoid getting in a situation where they would have to fight with a large bruiser.



Basically they should have locked him up. They should have had the awareness that this bloke, as has been said, like to fight. More than likely specializes in having a go at bouncers, which is a much abused and misinterpreted term anyway. The bouncers (cough) should have called a code black. Would not matter how many of it took to subdue, they should have done that.

EDIT> Mind you with pathetic attempt at a headbutt, they should not be doing the job anyway.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Sep 3, 2014)

K-man said:


> Self defence may include the offer of buying someone a drink,



I had to do that once. I was in a bar playing Pool with a friend and some guy and his mates started interfering with the game. We left the game, sat at the bar and the leader of the group sat next to me and started insulting and threatening me and spitting on me. I started buying him a beer here and there while I came up with an exit strategy, all the while thinking that the drunker he gets the slower his reaction time will be. He walked away for a minute and my friend and I calmly headed for the door and along the way I asked a bouncer if he could distract the group while we left. One of the group followed us out and the bouncer asked him how he was going and we were able to get away without any violence.


----------



## Sherman (Sep 3, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Are you just inventing possible scenarios completely independent of the video you're meant to be addressing?!?!



Looks like we started out on the wrong foot (from my thread) but you are right in saying that I am inventing possible scenarios since the topic is entitled, "This guy would kick 90% of BlackBelts ***". The assumption I am making is how you are going to handle a person like this with his two friends who is out to hurt you. I am not taking the exact scenario in the video. Anyway, it is clear that you are not interested to discuss nicely (have I once answered you snarkily?) so I am going to refrain from replying to you any further. Thank you.


----------



## elder999 (Sep 3, 2014)

Sherman said:


> The assumption I am making is how you are going to handle a person like this with his two friends who is out to hurt you. I am not taking the exact scenario in the video. .




That guy? And two friends?

That's time for me to get my friend to back me up: Mr. Glock. 

I mean, really........


----------



## donnaTKD (Sep 3, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, I'm going to break all of this up&#8230; there's a bit to address. Most of it's been touched on at least, but I'm going to be rather deconstructionist about it all&#8230;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Hong Kong Pooey (Sep 3, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, I'm going to break all of this up&#8230; there's a bit to address. Most of it's been touched on at least, but I'm going to be rather deconstructionist about it all&#8230;
> ...


----------



## K-man (Sep 3, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> I had to do that once. I was in a bar playing Pool with a friend and some guy and his mates started interfering with the game. We left the game, sat at the bar and the leader of the group sat next to me and started insulting and threatening me and spitting on me. I started buying him a beer here and there while I came up with an exit strategy, all the while thinking that the drunker he gets the slower his reaction time will be. He walked away for a minute and my friend and I calmly headed for the door and along the way I asked a bouncer if he could distract the group while we left. One of the group followed us out and the bouncer asked him how he was going and we were able to get away without any violence.


Actually this is a good example of what not to do as well as showing that eventually you left safely by working out an exit strategy. Once the guys started interfering with the game you might have recognised that as a trigger point to actually leave the premises. By going to the bar, _bad guys_ are encouraged after winning that first round. _Big bad guy_ comes to the bar to follow up insults, threatens and spits. You buy him a drink rewarding his bad behaviour. If you had recognised code red at the pool table this follow up situation would not have occurred. Your exit strategy was good but could have been utilised in the earlier stages. One of the rules of self defence, at the first sign of trouble, get out.

It's a little bit like the situation where someone has a go at you and you successfully defend yourself and go back to the bar to finish your drink. Your attacker, now even more dangerous because you beat him one way or the other, comes back with his mates or with a weapon. Rules of self defence, after successfully defending yourself, leave immediately. Some years back a mate of mine evicted a young guy from a nightclub. Obviously he was working and that was part and parcel of his job. Short time later the young guy was back with a shotgun. Fortunately the security staff were able to disarm him. They gave him a hiding and let him go. He complained to the police about the assault but neglected to tell them about the shotgun. Another instance where he should have just gone home.


----------



## blindsage (Sep 3, 2014)

Sherman said:


> Anyway, it is clear that you are not interested to discuss nicely (have I once answered you snarkily?) so I am going to refrain from replying to you any further. Thank you.


Your loss.  Chris responded to a lot of ridiculous suppositions you proposed from a place of knowledge and experience.  If you want to deprive yourself of the insights you can gain from someone with a huge amount to offer, that's on you, but listening to someone who knows what they're talking about in this situation could be seen as a learning opportunity. Or a lost one.


----------



## donald1 (Sep 4, 2014)

I'm not the kind of person that will be blunt with someone well unless I have to,  then it's no problem but I think it's something agreeable that not all answers can be sugar coated.  Take the advice wisely,  lot of these people know what there talking about


----------



## Transk53 (Sep 4, 2014)

K-man said:
			
		

> Self defence may include the offer of buying someone a drink, but in this case? In this situation the guy is probably already drunk. Most places buying a drunk person another drink is an offence, at least from the seller's point of view. Even if you did buy him a drink you shouldn't be waiting around for him to finish it, and then to glass him, when he was unaware? Man, you have no defence. As to fighting him outside where he has his two friends? I can see no reason for any of these guys to be fighting. The security guys were not in their business premises. They could have just moved away. Testosterone and the perceived strength in numbers led them into making a bad move. And, again, why would they offer to buy him a drink? That would involve allowing him into their premises. And finally, security personnel glassing patrons ... :hmm:



In reality, the end of the pavement, how ever long or short, is where the Doorstaff have their jurisdiction Ie where the venue is deemed to have health and safety concern for the patrons. Did not really take much notice of the distance in the vid. Go beyond that threshold and a Doorman has no defense whats so ever. All they can do is just contain them under instruction that the local police force is to attend. In the UK those three would get crucified for that fight, and more than likely the big fella would not get prosecuted, under the eyes of the law he would have a case to be not deemed the aggressor. As for Doorstaff glassing a patron, that would be good night Vienna. Missed that bit somewhere though?


----------



## Transk53 (Sep 4, 2014)

Sherman said:
			
		

> Looks like we started out on the wrong foot (from my thread) but you are right in saying that I am inventing possible scenarios since the topic is entitled, "This guy would kick 90% of BlackBelts ***". The assumption I am making is how you are going to handle a person like this with his two friends who is out to hurt you. I am not taking the exact scenario in the video. Anyway, it is clear that you are not interested to discuss nicely (have I once answered you snarkily?) so I am going to refrain from replying to you any further. Thank you


.

Sherman, that is completely obvious on how you handle it. It is not an assumption that is needed, it is complete awareness of the given moment. Under Siege 2 - "Assumption is the mother of all **** ups" Look at from two angles>

The first one would be that the big fella was head butted, the resultant action was obvious, just in this case the door staff had overestimated themselves, which quite frankly I don't have a problem with. They were idiots.

The second one should have been something like this. The big fella turns looking to growl, he spots a Doorman. Wanders over and starts trying to intimidate. The doorman being a seasoned pro has seen this all before. His colleague calls a "code amber". Now the front door is on full alert. Other door staff inside the venue are poised to react when the "code red" is called. Three warnings would have called out to the big fella and wallah, he ends up getting locked up with two doorman on each arm, two on the rear until the leg straps come out. That is the only scenario under normal conditions. It can only escalate to a "code black" by which time the fuzz will be en route. However, being seasoned pro's that would be a rare occurrence. That is what we do Sherman, not make assumptions.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Sep 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> Actually this is a good example of what not to do as well as showing that eventually you left safely by working out an exit strategy. Once the guys started interfering with the game you might have recognised that as a trigger point to actually leave the premises. By going to the bar, _bad guys_ are encouraged after winning that first round. _Big bad guy_ comes to the bar to follow up insults, threatens and spits. You buy him a drink rewarding his bad behaviour. If you had recognised code red at the pool table this follow up situation would not have occurred. Your exit strategy was good but could have been utilised in the earlier stages. One of the rules of self defence, at the first sign of trouble, get out.



If only it were that simple that I could have left at the first sign of trouble but I knew this guy and if I had just left straightaway I got the impression that he would have followed me straight out the door and started something and it wasn't just me there, my friend was there as well. As it was he and his friends followed us straight to the bar I am pretty sure they would have followed us straight outside. I had to buy some time and I was hoping that by buying him a beer that I might be able to pacify him a bit. I left the second he walked away.


----------



## K-man (Sep 4, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> In reality, the end of the pavement, how ever long or short, is where the Doorstaff have their jurisdiction Ie where the venue is deemed to have health and safety concern for the patrons. Did not really take much notice of the distance in the vid. Go beyond that threshold and a Doorman has no defense whats so ever. All they can do is just contain them under instruction that the local police force is to attend. In the UK those three would get crucified for that fight, and more than likely the big fella would not get prosecuted, under the eyes of the law he would have a case to be not deemed the aggressor. As for Doorstaff glassing a patron, that would be good night Vienna. Missed that bit somewhere though?


You may have specific legislation to cover that area but here it is a grey area. If the business had a permit issued to enable trade on the footpath then security personal would have authority to act in that area. If the footpath was not part of the business premises then I would suggest that once the patron was ejected from the premises the security guys would not have authority unless they were performing a citizens arrest. The altercation in the OP, if that were to occur here in Australia, I would suggest the big guy might well have grounds to have the security guys charged with assault.
:asian:


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2014)

You just cannot enact trespass laws outside the bounds of your property. Otherwise you can enforce laws and maintain public order just like any other person.

CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 458 Person found committing offences may be arrested without warrant by any person

CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 462A Use of force to prevent the commission of an indictable offence


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 4, 2014)

Sherman said:


> Looks like we started out on the wrong foot (from my thread) but you are right in saying that I am inventing possible scenarios since the topic is entitled, "This guy would kick 90% of BlackBelts ***".



No, Sherman, we didn't start out "on the wrong foot"&#8230; you have posted some very flawed videos, and honestly, I was being incredibly gentle with you (as that was your intro thread)&#8230; although I did suggest that you should be posting them in other areas, such as this forum, if you wanted actual feedback. But here's the thing&#8230; my thinking that your videos, your post here, and your explanations are all incredibly lacking isn't us starting on the "wrong foot"&#8230; it's that you're getting honest appraisal. I, and others here, are under no obligation to like what you're presenting&#8230; nor are we required to agree with it&#8230; and we're certainly not, in any way, needed to encourage that you continue to present such dangerous advice as legitimate, safe, or even good.

When it comes to you inventing possible scenarios based purely on the topic title, it might help if you actually consider the discussion that, at that point, had been going for some 11 pages before you&#8230; the thread is about the person in the OP video, yeah&#8230; but it's a particular scenario presented&#8230; and that's what the discussion has been about.



Sherman said:


> The assumption I am making is how you are going to handle a person like this with his two friends who is out to hurt you. I am not taking the exact scenario in the video.



The problem there is that, well, that's not an assumption, it's a question&#8230; but, a little more realistically, it's a question that has no single definitive answer. It's just too vague, and misses all of the information that would inform an actual response from being formulated. Of course, even when we ignore that, the advice and scenario you were describing was thoroughly internally flawed, legally questionable (to say the least), tactically lacking, mechanically ill-advised, contradictory to actual human behaviour and reality, and more.

In other words, even if we just take it as these guys getting a bit aggressive and abusive (but not physical, allowing you to ask them to join you for a drink), then 95% of what you said was just bad advice, not to mention downright dangerous, and illegal.



Sherman said:


> Anyway, it is clear that you are not interested to discuss nicely (have I once answered you snarkily?) so I am going to refrain from replying to you any further. Thank you.



Believe me, this is me discussing nicely&#8230; and this is far from me being "snarky". I haven't called you "son" yet, for instance&#8230; close, but not yet&#8230; I do have a tendency towards bluntness, but you're presenting yourself as giving this advice as legitimate self defence strategy, and say that you're aiming your videos at non-martial artists&#8230; that scenario alone means that I'm going to apply quite a high standard for something to be passable&#8230; and what you present doesn't come close. The best result that I can think of here is that you stop, take a step back, and try to take on board what you're being told&#8230; before you get someone badly hurt. I'd hate for you to have that on your conscience&#8230; and I like the enthusiasm you have. But your knowledge, understanding, and skill level need a lot of development before you're in a position to realistically be giving any advice in this area.

So, even if you don't reply, I hope you read this&#8230; and I hope that you see that what I'm doing is with the intention of helping your development&#8230; and to help you to eventually be in a place where you can actually provide what you want to.


----------



## donnaTKD (Sep 4, 2014)

i agree with what chris has written whole heartedly 
having read and seen your videos --- my thinking is that the s$%t would hit the fan far sooner than you can escape from. your descriptions of how to get out of a situation are deeply flawed and don't allow room for anything apart from you going to the emergency room followed very quickly by a LEO.

in a self defense situation if talking down the situation or just walking away aren't an option then you're gunna have to get stuck in and yet that's where your advice falls down in a cavernous hole of legal if's and but's.  

i sincerely hope that you're not teaching people SD at all.  your get out for the OP says that you don't actually know much about SD techniques and tactical awareness, as well as awareness of your surroundings, there are numerous items missing from your SD videos.

and above all AN ASSUMPTION IS A MAJOR F$%KUP -- and this does go with what your saying and that for me is very scary -- personally i would not want to take your SD advice given how full of holes it is


----------



## Transk53 (Sep 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> You may have specific legislation to cover that area but here it is a grey area. If the business had a permit issued to enable trade on the footpath then security personal would have authority to act in that area. If the footpath was not part of the business premises then I would suggest that once the patron was ejected from the premises the security guys would not have authority unless they were performing a citizens arrest. The altercation in the OP, if that were to occur here in Australia, I would suggest the big guy might well have grounds to have the security guys charged with assault.
> :asian:



That seems quite the beurocratic minefield, even more so than ours. Look, and unfortunately I am having to back to it, most of the time, well a lot of the time, our police support us. Okay, yeah we would give a couple of digs, but within reason. That is how for example, a street full of clubs would assist each other without any hesitation. That does also mean entreg other venues. In Britain we probably get away with it, and probably because we work with the police when we could just as easily give them a dig.

I agree with the citizens arrest, that would cover the doorman. But really, that is harsh on them. Obviously I cannot comment on Australian life, I have just seen the TV programs, but yeah, that is harsh!


----------



## Towel Snapper (Sep 12, 2014)

I agree. 

The guy has good technique and has practiced boxing. 

He is big naturally. 

He is on steroids. 

He is strength trained. 

He is heavy. 

He isnt slow. 

Unfortunately steroids give you a huge advantage, and you have to be a real dumbass to take them in order to become "hard" because of the negative health consequences, unfortunately its hard to compete with one of these strong bull like morons without the steroids. 

I agree he would wipe the floor with most black belts. Most black belts arnt on roids nor do they practice boxing one on one with other boxers. 

Also it isnt so impressive since the bouncers look like average men and he looks like the build of a boucer. But non the less he was the totally dominant man in that scenario. Although steroids can make you more of a man than nature ever will so we should have more respect for the inventer of the steroid or the steroids themselves than for that man who is "cheating" basically, and probably wouldn't have "won" without the roids, with only his natural genetics and learnt skill.


Notice how effective a simple push/ barge from a heavy guy is it sends a lighter man to the floor even if the lighter man is better at striking when on the floor he can be kicked stomped mounted etc, size, weight and strength matters alot


Also there is a psychological advantage to being huge, angry aggressive, and strong, even if you were smaller and stronger/ more powerful and more skillful, you would naturally be at a disadvantage because its natural instinct to judge a big angry rampaging beast as dangerous and so you are less likely to go on the offense, or use your skill with confidence, which is a problem he probably wont have, (since its natural to judge smaller more scared individuals as less of a threat even if they are in reality more of a threat, thats not the natural judgement most people make)  so while its not impossible to have a cool collected confident state of mind and emotions its less likely and id put my money on the moronic aggressive big less skillful guy to win, due to an undeserved psychological advantage that would get to most normal people.

My respect goes to the bouncer/security guy that had heart/balls and went right at the guy only to narrowly loose and get beat down eventually. He had big balls and he did real well for a non steroid user vs a steroid user. Had it been a no steroid match I bet that guy would cleaned his clock.


----------



## Badger1777 (Sep 12, 2014)

Towel Snapper said:


> The guy has good technique and has practiced boxing.



If 'good technique' means swinging your arms like a monkey and just hoping they land somehw 



> He is big naturally.



If Bacon double cheeseburgers with large fries are natural. 



> He is on steroids.



He's certainly on something. 



> He is strength trained.
> 
> He is heavy.



All that weight training. Burgers and pizzas are not light you know. 



> He isnt slow.



Compared to a snail. 



> I agree he would wipe the floor with most black belts.



Only if nobody was wearing those black belts at the time. 



> Also it isnt so impressive since the bouncers look like average men and he looks like the build of a boucer.



Never overestimate a bouncer. I know a few personally. Some are genuinely tough. Many rely on their projected image.



> Notice how effective a simple push/ barge from a heavy guy is it sends a lighter man to the floor even if the lighter man is better at striking when on the floor he can be kicked stomped mounted etc, size, weight and strength matters alot



The lighter man should be able to move with more speed and agility. I've had the misfortune of having had to fight people both larger and smaller than me. If I have to fight, give me the big man any day. The small man is just too fast.


----------



## Towel Snapper (Sep 12, 2014)

Badger1777 said:


> If 'good technique' means swinging your arms like a monkey and just hoping they land somehw
> 
> 
> 
> ...





LOL very witty reply!


----------



## donald1 (Sep 12, 2014)

Honestly,  I just don't think he is that good, whether he is big or not it's not threatening,  the big people get defeated just as well as the smaller people.  They can both have weaknesses and disadvantages.  I don't think any of the people in the video were black belts or even in martial arts.  If he did beat up a black belt or a skilled martial artist to be specific,  I'd be very skeptic about it


----------

