# moving up in rank to the higher echelon ?



## suicide (Oct 8, 2009)

*moving up in rank to the higher echelon* 
last year around this time went to check out a new school they opened around my pad learned of it through a flyer , its said 2 free classes - so i went. ive been working out for a couple of years solo - so in my head im like go interact its been awhile ...

class went like this 

stretch for about 15 - 20 mins. 

then practiced back kicks for 20 mins.

then the class goes into escrima for 20 mins. 

stretch 5 mins. 

class was over ? i was like what ? 

the back kick session was great the escrima was sick also the teacher was a cool guy after class we chopped it up a lil bit about each others backgrounds etc. 

he was 5th degree 

i never went back for my second free lesson , i sensed a bit of tension ( but not cause of the tension did i not go back ) he had nothing but green belts under him blues purple & oranges - they were alrite...

( i do more by myself when i train : one of the reason i didnt go back ) 

well the other day i go to the store and see another flyer by the same cat promoting his school 2 free lessons and at the bottom and along with his credentials it said 8 th degree ? 

im not saying the guy dont deserve it ... cause just by the way he moves you know he´d tear your face off hes also like a ex muay thai champ. military & jujitsu guy. 

last year 5th this year 8th ?


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## MJS (Oct 8, 2009)

Ummmm....are you sure this was a Kenpo school you went to??


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## Senjojutsu (Oct 9, 2009)

Could it have been a typo with the flyer?


Hhmmmnn... but if it was 5th to 8th hyperspace rank jump then why does the temple scene from the movie, *Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls (1995), *keeps running through my mind:

*Ashram Monk*: If I may interject! We're short of space, and it's important for you to use your talents. Let me help you pack. 
*Ace*: But I am yet to attain omnipresent supergalactic oneness. 


*Ashram Monk*: No. Wait. *THERE IT IS!* *[smiles]* 
*Ashram Monk*: You've just attained it. 


*Ace*: I have? 
*Ashram Monk*: Yes! Just now! You are one! I can see it in your eyes. You're more one than anyone! 


*Ace*: What about my medallion of spiritual accomplishment? 
*Ashram Monk*: Take mine! 


*Ace*: This took you eighty years to achieve! 
*Ashram Monk*: That's okay.  I don't like it anymore.  Really.


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## suicide (Oct 9, 2009)

MJS said:


> Ummmm....are you sure this was a Kenpo school you went to??


 

uuuummmmm it says in big black letters in front of his establishment KENPO KARATE.


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## suicide (Oct 9, 2009)

Senjojutsu said:


> Could it have been a typo with the flyer?
> 
> 
> Hhmmmnn... but if it was 5th to 8th hyperspace rank jump then why does the temple scene from the movie, *Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls (1995), *keeps running through my mind:
> ...


 

i doubt that it was a typo , who knows though i might come back next year and tell you guys i was at the same store and seen another flyer by the same guy but now said 10th degree GO FIGURE ! :redcaptur


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2009)

MJS said:


> Ummmm....are you sure this was a Kenpo school you went to??


 
I think it's happened quite a lot in the kenpo world.


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## Sigung86 (Oct 10, 2009)

Michael is correct. Seen it happen a couple of times. An independant with no other "family" backing makes a subjective comparison twixt him and her and another high ranking belt. They figure they can do it better and so, do a field grade promotion. They then attempt to either a) start their own system and have infinite promotion opportunities, or b) somehow make themselves an ancillary member of a "legitimate" school, and garner rank that way.

There is also a c), but I've only seen it happen once.  A friend of mine was a member of a particular school of Kenpo.  He, eventually, went his own way and became an independent.  Over the years he has continuously presented at tournaments and turned out many winning fighters.  Last time he did this, he was at an international in Japan.  He had not had a rank promo in many years.  And so, he was given, at the behest of a number of senior belts, what might be called a mat grade.  Not based on his recognized skills (which are predigious), or school membership, but on his very extensive contributions to the art and his own quality.


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## Milt G. (Oct 10, 2009)

Sigung86 said:


> Michael is correct. Seen it happen a couple of times. An independant with no other "family" backing makes a subjective comparison twixt him and her and another high ranking belt. They figure they can do it better and so, do a field grade promotion. They then attempt to either a) start their own system and have infinite promotion opportunities, or b) somehow make themselves an ancillary member of a "legitimate" school, and garner rank that way.
> 
> There is also a c), but I've only seen it happen once. A friend of mine was a member of a particular school of Kenpo. He, eventually, went his own way and became an independent. Over the years he has continuously presented at tournaments and turned out many winning fighters. Last time he did this, he was at an international in Japan. He had not had a rank promo in many years. And so, he was given, at the behest of a number of senior belts, what might be called a mat grade. Not based on his recognized skills (which are predigious), or school membership, but on his very extensive contributions to the art and his own quality.


 
Hello, to you, Sir!
Yes, long time no hear from.

Great story.  Thank you.  Sounds well deserved!  
I think that recognition for ones contributions should figure prominently in the "big picture".  So many skilled practitioners just lack the opportunity to advance.  Be it politics, instruction, location and what not.

I remember eagerly awaiting my new copy of "Black Belt magazine".  For the content (back in the day) AND to check Larry Tatum's rank on the "Panther" video tape ads!  Seemed it jumped every couple of years.  Now, not taking anything from Mr. Tatum to be sure.  He is "what it is" as far as American Kenpo is concerned IMO.  It was just interesting hearing of promotion status in video ads...  

Promotion is many things to many people.  Some get it quick, some get it slow.  Some even do not deserve it, but many do.  The fact of the matter is that it is really only up to the "promotion authority", in regards to how and when it is administered.  As long as the teacher, or group, is qualified to "bestow" it is purely their decision in their time.

I am just thankful that most systems terminate ranking at 10th Dan...  Imagine having to hear about it for longer then necessary?   Does make for interesting conversation, though.

Thank you, good to hear from you.
Milt G.


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## Sigung86 (Oct 10, 2009)

Milt,

Check these out:

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/380
BB: No, I dont want that. On your flier it reads, Professor William Chow, 15th-degree black belt, Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo Kung Fu. So youre a 15th degree?
Chow: Yes.

http://seikenkarate.wordpress.com/2007/05/21/requirements-for-11th-degree-black-belt/

Requirements for 11th Degree Black Belt May 21, 2007, 11:43 am 
Filed under: ramblings 

:lool:


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I think it's happened quite a lot in the kenpo world.


 
I wasn't talking about the jump in rank.  God knows I've debated that on here countless times! LOL!  No, I was talking about the class structure.  Doesn't sound like the typical Kenpo class to me.


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2009)

suicide said:


> uuuummmmm it says in big black letters in front of his establishment KENPO KARATE.


 
Ok, so what is it exactly that you're focusing on here?  The jump in rank?  The class structure?  If its the rank, well, a serach of some threads on here will yield many results on high rank.  Personally, thats a pet peeve of mine, due to the fact that there're so many people that think that its soooo important to flash those stripes around, almost as if they're hoping that people will bow down and kiss their *** or something.  Like I always say....dont impress me with your rank, impress me with your skills.

If its the class structure that you're questioning...well, IMO, it doesn't sound too structured to me.  This was a Kenpo class, as you're claiming, yet I didn't see any Kenpo in the breakdown that you gave.  20min on 1 kick???  So you're saying that for 20min all that was done was back kicks??  

Now, I've thrown in some non-Kenpo related material when I would teach.  But, I always a) made sure that wasn't the full focus of the class and b) made sure that I told them what what we were doing at that time was Arnis or BJJ not Kenpo.  So, for example: We'd warmup, do some basics, and then usually break into groups and focus on the requirements for those that were in attendance.  If time allowed towards the end, sometimes, I'd toss in a empty hand, stick or knife technique from Arnis.  Why?  Just simply to toss something different to the group.  Many times it sparked some interest and they wanted to learn more, which generated more people to the Arnis class.  It also gave them a different view on how various arts defend a certain attack.


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## dianhsuhe (Oct 10, 2009)

Sigung86 said:


> Milt,
> 
> Check these out:
> 
> ...


 

Professor said if everyone else is a 10th degree than he is 15th, and nobody argued it...LOL

Rank is subjective, skill is real.


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## yorkshirelad (Oct 10, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> I remember eagerly awaiting my new copy of "Black Belt magazine". For the content (back in the day) AND to check Larry Tatum's rank on the "Panther" video tape ads! Seemed it jumped every couple of years. Now, not taking anything from Mr. Tatum to be sure. He is "what it is" as far as American Kenpo is concerned IMO. It was just interesting hearing of promotion status in video ads...
> 
> .


The thing is, who else could determine what rank Larry Tatum should be but Larry Tatum. He is probably the world's leading exponant of American Kenpo. It wouldn't make sense in him going to other practitioners for rank as most others pale in comparison to him. Rank has always been subjective. I once heard that Mr Parker had 'time in' criteria for black belt rank, 2 years for 2nd black, 3 years for 3rd black and so on, but even Mr Parker broke the rules. Speakman's 4th degree after 3 years of study is an example of this.
I've spoken about this on another thread, but let me mention this again. Even our Japanese cousins have somewhat strange ways of aquiring rank. Funokoshi moves from Okinawa to mainland Japan and steals the belt ranking systems from Kano's Judo, he then ranks Ohtsuka to 4th Dan. Ohtsuka combines his JuJutsu with Shotokan and creates Wado ryu. The government then bestow a 10th dan on him, (anyone thought of asking Obama for martial arts rank :rofl.
I've heard that there is a particular Kenpo practitioner in Ireland who is claiming 11th Degree. I don't know if this is 100% true, but I wouldn't be suprised.
The thing that I can't understand is that there are many who ***** about other people's rank, but few are willing to go to said person and take their belt. They would prefer to whine about it to their peers.
I remember when the AKSC was the new big thing and one of my teachers in Dublin were thinking about joining. He asked my opinion and I said "Keep your money, and start your own council of friends and then you can just give rank to each other as the senior council will." 
 I know of a few people who quit one organization and joined another just to get another stripe on their belt. Why not just bestow the rank on yourself. I like the way Mr Parker did it. He promoted himself to 10th and let it be known. When asked about it he said "I observed the standard of my peers and ranked myself accordingly". Noone knew more about his art than he, so to take rank at that point from anyone else would be ludicrous. 
There is no real standard for black belt ranks across the board. So for students, I would give the same advise as I give people buying a new fridge.....buyer beware!!


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## suicide (Oct 10, 2009)

11th degree whoa ! hes all that and some :wavey: yeah that kenpo class i went didnt focus on techs. or kata but then again i only went to one class but still i was like huh ?


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## Milt G. (Oct 10, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> The thing is, who else could determine what rank Larry Tatum should be but Larry Tatum. He is probably the world's leading exponant of American Kenpo. It wouldn't make sense in him going to other practitioners for rank as most others pale in comparison to him. Rank has always been subjective. I once heard that Mr Parker had 'time in' criteria for black belt rank, 2 years for 2nd black, 3 years for 3rd black and so on, but even Mr Parker broke the rules. Speakman's 4th degree after 3 years of study is an example of this.
> I've spoken about this on another thread, but let me mention this again. Even our Japanese cousins have somewhat strange ways of aquiring rank. Funokoshi moves from Okinawa to mainland Japan and steals the belt ranking systems from Kano's Judo, he then ranks Ohtsuka to 4th Dan. Ohtsuka combines his JuJutsu with Shotokan and creates Wado ryu. The government then bestow a 10th dan on him, (anyone thought of asking Obama for martial arts rank :rofl.
> I've heard that there is a particular Kenpo practitioner in Ireland who is claiming 11th Degree. I don't know if this is 100% true, but I wouldn't be suprised.
> The thing that I can't understand is that there are many who ***** about other people's rank, but few are willing to go to said person and take their belt. They would prefer to whine about it to their peers.
> ...


 
Hello,

Great points!  Thank you...
I do feel that Larry Tatum deserves more credit.  I also feel that he is the prominent A.K. "senior".  Just my opinion, of course.  And, no...  I am not one of his students.  

I think Ed Parker was also "pressured and encouraged" by his senior students to accept the 10th Dan ranking.  That left more "space" for his seniors to progress and staved off a potential "log jam" at the upper ranks.

The right thing to do in that situation, IMO.

Thank you, again...
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Oct 10, 2009)

Sigung86 said:


> Milt,
> 
> Check these out:
> 
> ...


 
Thank you, very much...
Interesting stuff.

Mr. Chow seemed quite "sure" of himself...  I guess if your students are 10th Dan's you would have to (or think you have to) be ranked higher...???

The "long and winding road" of the history of Kenpo...  I am happy AND sad to be involved.  Mostly happy, though.  

Please have a great day and week!
Milt G.


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## suicide (Oct 13, 2009)

:knight2:kenpo is sick totally ! just one question who is telling the truth chow or parker ?


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