# Yan Jeung (?) Question



## Xue Sheng (Oct 16, 2010)

I was looking at an old video of Ip Man and a slightly newer, but still old, video of Ip Chun doing Siu Lim Tao and I began to think about where the power comes from for Yan Jeung (I think that is what it is called) early in the Siu Lim Tao form right after paak sau followed by jik jeung. According to Ip Chuns book it is the beginning of the second section.

I have my thoughts on where the power comes from but I am basing that on Taijiquan and Xingyiquan. I am wondering where it is suppose to come from based on Wing Chun


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 16, 2010)

Just in case my terminology and/or description made no sense what-so-ever. It is the downward palm strike that is done first right, and then left then behind the back both hands then in front both hands.


----------



## mook jong man (Oct 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just in case my terminology and/or description made no sense what-so-ever. It is the downward palm strike that is done first right, and then left then behind the back both hands then in front both hands.


 
The power ultimately comes from the stance , but the movement itself is initated from the elbow in our lineage.

Then at the end there is a bit of help from the wrist , for example if we palm strike an opponent the fingers go back and the palm heel comes forward providing some final acceleration just before contact , acting in the same way as the punch


----------



## geezer (Oct 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just in case my terminology and/or description made no sense what-so-ever. It is the downward palm strike that is done first right, and then left then behind the back both hands then in front both hands.



Ok, we call those movements _gum-sau_ (pinning-hand). _Jor gum-sau _(left), _Yau gum-sau_ (right), _shang hau gum-sau_ (double rear pinning-hand) and _shang chin gum-sau_ (double front pinning-hand). Now you see why I favor English terminology for all but the basic techniques!

As far as power comes from, based on prior comments, I'd bet that Mook's probably right, but I don't really understand what "power from the elbow" means in this situation. Since you are snapping your palm downward and straightening the arm, to some degree you have to use the muscles that straighten the elbow... such as the triceps and even the lats in the pinning striking applications. But some of these movements have less obvious applications in the lineage I studied, such as using the side gum-sau to dissolve a grapple and initiate a lateral shoulder strike to the chest. In this application, your arm snaps straight down along your side, causing the elbow to disappear and dissolve an attempted arm-grapple while your whole body flexes like a sapling adding a very powerful whipping action to your shoulder strike. In this case the power is generated almost entirely by the lateral flexing of the stance and torso. Like so much in WC/WT/VT. It's simple, but complex at the same time.


----------



## Nabakatsu (Oct 16, 2010)

One of my favorite applications I was taught earlier, sometimes though when you meet a lot of resistance you have to push your arm outwards too, which changes the ability to land the shoulder strike as cleanly as I would like.


----------



## mook jong man (Oct 17, 2010)

geezer said:


> Ok, we call those movements _gum-sau_ (pinning-hand). _Jor gum-sau _(left), _Yau gum-sau_ (right), _shang hau gum-sau_ (double rear pinning-hand) and _shang chin gum-sau_ (double front pinning-hand). Now you see why I favor English terminology for all but the basic techniques!
> 
> As far as power comes from, based on prior comments, I'd bet that Mook's probably right, _*but I don't really understand what "power from the elbow" means in this situation. Since you are snapping your palm downward and straightening the arm, to some degree you have to use the muscles that straighten the elbow... such as the triceps and even the lats in the pinning striking applications.*_ But some of these movements have less obvious applications in the lineage I studied, such as using the side gum-sau to dissolve a grapple and initiate a lateral shoulder strike to the chest. In this application, your arm snaps straight down along your side, causing the elbow to disappear and dissolve an attempted arm-grapple while your whole body flexes like a sapling adding a very powerful whipping action to your shoulder strike. In this case the power is generated almost entirely by the lateral flexing of the stance and torso. Like so much in WC/WT/VT. It's simple, but complex at the same time.


 
The muscles you described are correct , they are the ones you have to use.
But in our lineage mental force is located at the elbow , so mentally everything is driven from the elbow.
Its not always the case in a literal physical type of sense , but mentally the force is always projected from the elbow.
For example I can have my arm locked out straight and still use my elbow force to drop my arm down even though the elbow itself is not moving forward or back but only down .
My theory is that it came about because to mentally fire up every muscle group that is used in a Wing Chun movement would be a lengthy and complicated thought process.
So its easier to say I want my arm to go up , so I mentally send my force to the elbow and make it go up.
Same thing if I want my arm to go down , I mentally project my force to the elbow and visualise my elbow sinking down.
Our whole Sil Lum Tao form is done in this method.

But getting back to the technique that Xue Sheng was talking about , you can start the movement off by slightly sinking the elbow from the shoulder joint first , then start using your triceps to complete the movement.

The best way to learn to do it , is to get someone to physically put their hand under your hand and give you a bit of resistance , sink the elbow slightly from the shoulder first and then extend the arm down.


----------



## hunt1 (Oct 17, 2010)

The power is from sinking. Nothing else is needed just relaxed sinking.

 Simple way to test and understand. have a partner kneel in front of you. Place your and on his shoulder. Have him stand up or even more fun power up like a squat. If he can't stand you are doing it right. If he stands or you move backwards etc you aren't using the correct power.


----------



## hpclub1000 (Oct 18, 2010)

When I hear people refering to "elbow energy" it's quite confusing for people to understand. Having done quite a bit weight training in my time I understand the biomechanics of certain techniques involving the primary and secondary muscle groups. For example whenever you perform a pushing exercise you are engaging your tricips and when pulling you are engaing your biceps. But the muscle groups used can change as contact is made. For example when I throw out a tan sao into the air the biceps are engaged slightly. But upon contact with a resisting force it changes to the triceps. Much the way the muscle groups are engaged when one performs a bench press. To me the elbow is a joint or bone. If you talk about a fixed elbow position it is the shoulder that is actually rotating.


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Oct 18, 2010)

The movement should actually have very minimal power if you want it to be effective. The move can be used for a variety of things, but ultimately it is best used for defence against knee attacks. If you use power, you will eventually damage your hands (force on force). The idea is to absorb the knee through your structure, and you will often see masters like Ip Chun do it this way

Its good that you are looking for these details though as it is interesting seeing everyones take on it

Peace out


----------



## mook jong man (Oct 18, 2010)

hpclub1000 said:


> _*When I hear people refering to "elbow energy" it's quite confusing for people to understand*_. Having done quite a bit weight training in my time I understand the biomechanics of certain techniques involving the primary and secondary muscle groups. For example whenever you perform a pushing exercise you are engaging your tricips and when pulling you are engaing your biceps. But the muscle groups used can change as contact is made. For example when I throw out a tan sao into the air the biceps are engaged slightly. But upon contact with a resisting force it changes to the triceps. Much the way the muscle groups are engaged when one performs a bench press. To me the elbow is a joint or bone. If you talk about a fixed elbow position it is the shoulder that is actually rotating.


 
It maybe confusing for them to understand , but the concept actually simplifies things a great deal when you are trying to apply mental force to your technique.

We know that the arm rotates from the shoulder , but its a lot more simple to visualise your elbow moving than it is to try and concentrate on all the different rotations that might be going on in the shoulder .

For example with a Bong Sau your arm might be rotating in the socket and at the same time moving up or down from the shoulder joint.

Thats quite a lot to be concentrating on , rather than just thinking I'll relax my shoulders and project from the elbow.

I think as westerners we try to really complicate things a bit sometimes .


----------



## profesormental (Oct 19, 2010)

Greetings.

The answer is:

It depends on the specific application.

If you're defending against a wrist grab, come along...

if its a sideward strike, etc.

Good posts.


----------



## zepedawingchun (Oct 19, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> . . . . . The move can be used for a variety of things, but ultimately it is best used for defence against knee attacks. If you use power, you will eventually damage your hands (force on force). . . . .


 
If you're using the hand position (gum sao) against a knee attack, remember that it must be done by deflecting the knee from the side (left or right side of the kneeing leg). The power of the knee is too strong for the gum sao to go against it head on, with the knee coming up and the gum sao going straight down. The proper way to execute the gum sao is illustrated in the last set of Chum Kiu (after the last kick) with a shift and gum sao (3 times) and also in the 7th set (kicking set) of the Yip Man Muk Yan Jong form (that probably depends on what positions you do in your dummy sets also).


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2010)

Thank you for all the responses and please keep them coming.

I am working on Siu Lim Tao again but this time, for the heck of it, from an internal perspective and I am finding it very interesting, at times rather surprising, and at times hard to figure out from that perspective, but just the same it s pretty cool.

I am only back at the beginning of the second part and I am going to move on a bit this week. But I am taking it real slow and so far I like this pace.

If I have more questions I wll post them

Thanks :asian:


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Oct 20, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> If you're using the hand position (gum sao) against a knee attack, remember that it must be done by deflecting the knee from the side (left or right side of the kneeing leg). The power of the knee is too strong for the gum sao to go against it head on, with the knee coming up and the gum sao going straight down. The proper way to execute the gum sao is illustrated in the last set of Chum Kiu (after the last kick) with a shift and gum sao (3 times) and also in the 7th set (kicking set) of the Yip Man Muk Yan Jong form (that probably depends on what positions you do in your dummy sets also).


 
Thats actually incorrect. You should never block the end of a strike with your hands (ie the foot of a round kick, or the tip of a knee, etc). What you do with the gum sao, is block past the knee nearer the thigh. It is like blocking a hook by attacking the shoulder of an opponent

If you try blocking the side of a knee with gum sao, you will end up damaging your fingers (because their is no give in the structure). This has happened a few times with guys Ive trained with from other schools


----------



## wtxs (Oct 20, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> If you're using the hand position (gum sao) against a knee attack, remember that it must be done by *deflecting the knee from the side* (left or right side of the kneeing leg). The power of the knee is too strong for the gum sao to go against it head on, with the knee coming up and the gum sao going straight down. The proper way to execute the gum sao is illustrated in the last set of Chum Kiu (after the last kick) *with a shift and gum sao* (3 times) and also in the 7th set (kicking set) of the Yip Man Muk Yan Jong form (that probably depends on what positions you do in your dummy sets also).





Kamon Guy said:


> Thats actually incorrect. You should never block the end of a strike with your hands (ie the foot of a round kick, or the tip of a knee, etc). What you do with the gum sao, is block past the knee nearer the thigh. It is like blocking a hook by attacking the shoulder of an opponent
> 
> If you try *blocking the side of a knee* with gum sao, you will end up damaging your fingers (because their is no give in the structure). This has happened a few times with guys Ive trained with from other schools



You are right about gum sao near the thigh area. Zepe is also right of gum sao to the side of the knee area in conjunction with shifting to effect the desired off-line deflection.

Zepe said - deflection, you said - blocking, 2 different actions and out comes ... could it I might be reading too much into it?


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Oct 21, 2010)

wtxs said:


> You are right about gum sao near the thigh area. Zepe is also right of gum sao to the side of the knee area in conjunction with shifting to effect the desired off-line deflection.
> 
> Zepe said - deflection, you said - blocking, 2 different actions and out comes ... could it I might be reading too much into it?


 
Yes you are reading too much into it in this instance. Gum sao is not really a deflection - you guys are thinking of a slip 
Gum sao is a pinning hand. Although the moves look similar, gum sao is more of a trapping hand than actually deflecting structure. It is easy to get them confused though. 

When people hear blocks, they usually think of hard force exerted by the person defending. Blocks are merely a move or structure designed to meet energy with proportional or more energy than is given by the attacker

Deflections tend to be driving an attack of its desired course. They can be hard or soft. Gum sao and blocks stop the attack dead in its tracks

Im sure you can slip a knee, but it is a risky strategy using your hands. If you want to absorb or deflect attacks from legs, it is better to move your body or use your own legs and knees

I broke a karate black belts toe by blocking their mae geris (kicks) with my knees. Something Im not proud of, but the moves effectiveness was apparent


----------



## zepedawingchun (Oct 21, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> Thats actually incorrect. You should never block the end of a strike with your hands (ie the foot of a round kick, or the tip of a knee, etc). What you do with the gum sao, is block past the knee nearer the thigh. It is like blocking a hook by attacking the shoulder of an opponent
> 
> If you try blocking the side of a knee with gum sao, you will end up damaging your fingers (because their is no give in the structure). This has happened a few times with guys Ive trained with from other schools


 
Kamon Guy, you are correct, it is not the knee, but slightly above the knee on the thigh.  I meant to say deflecting the knee attack, not the knee joint specifically.  Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.


----------



## zepedawingchun (Oct 21, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> . . . . .Gum sao is a pinning hand. Although the moves look similar, gum sao is more of a trapping hand than actually deflecting structure. It is easy to get them confused though.
> 
> When people hear blocks, they usually think of hard force exerted by the person defending. Blocks are merely a move or structure designed to meet energy with proportional or more energy than is given by the attacker
> 
> Deflections tend to be driving an attack of its desired course. They can be hard or soft. Gum sao and blocks stop the attack dead in its tracks


 
Yes, gum sao means pinning hand and is used as a means to trap or pin forward, stoppig an attack in it's tracks.  But in this instance, gum sao is being used to deflect the knee attack.  As I stated, in our lineage, it is demonstrated in Chum Kiu (after the last kicks, 3rd part) and in the Muk Yan Jong (7th set) after the kicks.  And the hand position used is called gum sao.


----------



## Domino (Oct 22, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just in case my terminology and/or description made no sense what-so-ever. It is the downward palm strike that is done first right, and then left then behind the back both hands then in front both hands.



This is done the other way around, left 1st then right !
Take time to relax...intiate...then back to relax.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2010)

Domino said:


> This is done the other way around, left 1st then right !
> Take time to relax...intiate...then back to relax.


 
Correct, I made a mistake in the order, but my question is more to where does the power come from?

I have my ideas based on my CMA IMA background but what I am thinking may not be correct because, although I did train a bit of Wing Chun the majority of my training is in Taijiquan followed by Xingyiquan


----------



## hunt1 (Oct 22, 2010)

Xue Sheng, since you have studied the other arts you should know both pre-natal and post- natal breathing. Practice the section with both types of breathing and you will discover the answer you are seeking.

 Also keep in mind Yip Man changed the section to one hand at a time. Older versions of wing chun both hands are done at same time on the sides. practice both. Again the breathing will tell you the difference.


----------



## geezer (Oct 23, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> ...Also keep in mind Yip Man changed the section to one hand at a time. Older versions of wing chun both hands are done at same time on the sides. practice both...



Hunt, could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm not all that up on WC/VT history. Goodness knows I have my hands full learning the current version I study. However, I've seen picture sequences of old versions of SNT/SLT done by disciples of Ng Chun So, the prominent student of Chan Wah Shun who taught Yip Man in Fatshan after Chan died. There are many differences between these forms and what Grandmaster Yip later taught, but they _did_ do the side gum-sau movements _sequentially_, not simultaneously. Wouldn't this suggest that doing the side gum-sau movements one at a time pre-dates Grandmaster Yip?


----------



## Vajramusti (Oct 23, 2010)

The nice thing about this forum is that it is fairly civil and different POVs can be expressed without rancor.
FWIW, IMO---there is a good reason in Ip Man's formulation of wing chun why the first gum sao is done one hand at a time before moving on to the rest of the section  which has two handed motions.
The first gum sao in slt is done with the palm going directly down on the side of the body in line with the shoulder. the other two handed gum saos go a little backward or forward.
 Developing the attributes in slt is not fighting- you are sharpening your motions IMO. If you do both arms in gum sao at the same time STRAIGHT DOWN- there is the danger of bouncing your stance(ygkym) and structure up wards.
Doing it one at a time minimizes this undesirable  possibility of "bouncing"..

joy chaudhuri


----------



## hunt1 (Oct 23, 2010)

Geezer this gets into one of the black holes of wing chun.

 The wing chun of Chan Wahs grandson does not have the single palms to the side. Other families like Cho or YKS have the palms done as one motion.

 The thing about NG Chung So is that he taught at Yui Choi's business. At that time, unlike today, most of the wing chun people in Fatshan no matter what source their wing chun gathered to talk and train there. So there was a lot of swapping etc. However later friction and jealousy led to many "forgetting" what went on there. 

 For example YKS people claim YKS invented the chi sao rolling and taught it to Yip Man. This ignores the fact that the rolling is part of the chum kui form of Yui Choi. It is far more likely that the rolling platform came from their training at Ng Chung So's. 

 It is possible that Yip Learned this method from Leung Bik and others liked it and incorporated it. Several sources out side of Yip Man students passed down the Yip was innovative.

 I wasn't there so have no way to know the definitive truth on anything in wing chun history but both direct students of Yip and people from non Yip wing chun have told me this was one of Yips signatures.


----------



## cwk (Oct 23, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> Geezer this gets into one of the black holes of wing chun.
> 
> The wing chun of Chan Wahs grandson does not have the single palms to the side. Other families like Cho or YKS have the palms done as one motion.



 Actually, Cho family WCK (the way that I was taught) does left, then right, then both together to the rear and front.


----------



## geezer (Oct 24, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> ...The thing about NG Chung So is that he taught at Yui Choi's business. At that time, unlike today, most of the wing chun people in Fatshan no matter what source their wing chun gathered to talk and train there. So there was a lot of swapping etc...



This is fascinating to me. Today, many "Grandmasters" and their "true believer" followers try to convey the impression that their lineage or brand is somehow the only _authentic_ version of the art, and that it is the most "original" or authentic form. While in reality it seems that WC/VT/WT has always been evolving. Even back in Fatshan in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries practitioners would gather, train, discuss and exchange knowledge and techniques and even alter their forms. Studying this history to better understand what we do seems very worthwhile to me. On the other hand, trying to use it to establish the superiority of one group or lineage over another by virtue of some purported greater antiquity (as some groups have done) has no merit, especially in light of the kind of cross-fertilization that you describe above. From the perspective of _efficacy_ we will always debate about which approach to WC is best, but all authentic lineages benefit from an accurate accounting of their roots.


----------



## hpclub1000 (Oct 25, 2010)

Pak Sau is the Slap.  Gum Sau is to pin. Gum Sau is used from a position of contact to press.  Pak Sao is doen from a position of none contact to slap.   Pak Sau can flow into Gum Sau naturally after the slap if that suits the moment.  

Just becuase in the forms we do the movement low does not mean its a Gum Sau.  It may just be a low Pak Sau.  

just my opinion.


----------



## hpclub1000 (Oct 25, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> It maybe confusing for them to understand , but the concept actually simplifies things a great deal when you are trying to apply mental force to your technique.
> 
> We know that the arm rotates from the shoulder , but its a lot more simple to visualise your elbow moving than it is to try and concentrate on all the different rotations that might be going on in the shoulder .
> 
> ...


 
Actually come to think of it this makes alot of sense.  Thanks Mook


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 27, 2010)

I have been going very slowly through the book

Wing Chun Kung Fu
Traditional Chinese Kung Fu 
For Self-Defense 
And Health
Ip Chun with Michael Tse

And I came to the applications section and it had something on Yan Jeung. 

But first I will say I know that in many CMA styles one form can have hundreds of applications so any that have already been posted for Yan Jeung are equally valid.

This is from the book

Yan Jueng to front elbow strike

1) Opponent grabs Michaels right arm and tightens his grip. Michael stays calm

2) Stepping forward Michael uses his forward Yan Jeung to jerk his opponent off balance, and so he will release his grip.

3) Having broken the grip, Michael sharply pulls his opponents hand (Lap Sau)) with his left hand at the same time as striking with his right elbow

Yan Jeung to Palm strike

1) Opponent grabs Michaels right wrist

2) Michael steps backwards and at the same time executes a backwards Yan Jeung which pulls his opponent off balance

3) As his opponent straightens up to regain balance, Michael, using the same hand hits his opponents face with a palm strike

In these applications I see some similarity to applications of Cai from the 13 postures of Yang Style Taijiquan which is more of a yank than a block. However in Cai it is more like a whip that can really mess someone up all the way to their neck. But it could also be used, like Yan Jeung is being used here, to unbalance someone and then attack


----------



## wtxs (Oct 27, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> It maybe confusing for them to understand , but the concept actually simplifies things a great deal when you are trying to apply mental force to your technique.
> 
> We know that the arm rotates from the shoulder , but its a lot more simple to visualise your elbow moving than it is to try and concentrate on all the different rotations that might be going on in the shoulder .
> 
> ...



Mook, hope you don't mind if I jump in along with you on this.

Visualize the arm is ball hinged to the shoulder, you extend the arm/elbow/hand forward like you would to touch your significant other's face ... would be in deep sh.t if you had "thrown your shoulder into it", can you say ... black eye. 

Or you can make comparison (side view) to the train's steam engine driving wheels, the front is attached to the rear via an connecting rod/link.  Using the rear wheel as the reference point (should), and the rod/link as the arm ... as the wheel turns, see it cycles back and forward

The hinge concept really comes to play for some one which haven't fully adapted, especially in prolonged chi sao sessions. 

Just as you had said, relax the shoulders and forward project from the elbows, the rotations will happen on its own ... as hidden some where in the SLT.


----------

