# extendable batons



## Flatlander (Aug 27, 2004)

You know, the metal ones with the lead in the end that the police use.  Anyone play with these?  Anyone know where I, a Canadian citizen, could procure one?  I really want to try one out.


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 27, 2004)

Well, I am not a Canadian citizen, so, no, unless you order through a catalog.  Buy a good quality one that you manually extend.

 Once you get one, PM me and I'll go over the retraction technique my teacher shows LEOs.  I'm certified in EB I, BTW.


----------



## Flatlander (Aug 27, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Buy a good quality one that you manually extend.


Do you mean as opposed to one that you would "whip" open?  Why?  Can you be more specific?  
Thanks!


----------



## Rob Broad (Aug 27, 2004)

Telescopic Batons or ASP's are illegal in Canada because tehy are a weapon that can either be open by centripidal force or by a spring lock mechanism.  The only way a citizen can own one is to take a course on teaching the weapon and start training poice officers.


----------



## Flatlander (Aug 27, 2004)

Yes, I know they're illegal for civilians, but there must be a way.....


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 28, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Do you mean as opposed to one that you would "whip" open?  Why?  Can you be more specific?
> Thanks!


 No, you DO want the kind that you have to "whip open" as opposed to the spring loaded ones.  Springs wear and it's more a pain in the butt than anything else.  Well, if you have the opportunity, try both.  The spring action seems really neat and and a time-saver...until it fails to either extend fully or collapses exactly when you don't need it to.

 It's still an extension of your body and metal CBs hurt WAY more than escrimas.

 An LEO would aim for center of mass with the tip.  Next step up from CB is firearm.  In Washington state, they recently updated the use to approve neutralization of the offending appendage.

 When you collapse the baton, do it like an LEO - step back with your dominant foot and kneel on one knee, keeping your head up - DON'T BEND OVER.  Reverse-grip the weapon and collapse on pavement with a downward hammerfist type motion, then return to standing.

 They're cool little ditties.


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 28, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Yes, I know they're illegal for civilians, but there must be a way.....


 I'm a civilian, but I'm certified in CB, so I carry one in my MA bag - don't wear it, though.  I almost lost it to the airport security when they searched my bag.  I told them it was a gift for someone.  Interesting, because they stopped me in PDX, but not LAX.

 Anyway, if you have a MA teacher or know one who trains LEOs, perhaps he can certify you in CB-I and CB-II so you can train LEOs also.  Then, you have a reason to have one with you - you teach LEOs CB.


----------



## Guro Harold (Aug 28, 2004)

The cool thing about FMA and ASP/EB's is that most of the major striking styles can be used to deploy the ASP/EBs.

The basic striking styles also give you a base for execution which of course must be tempered with understanding of the potential the criminal and civil law implications.

Some of the cane jointlock manipulations and cane releases from a deployed and non-deployed can also be used and the non-deployed EB can reuse kubaton applications and gunting techiques.

Cool stuff.

Palusut


----------



## DoxN4cer (Aug 28, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm a civilian, but I'm certified in CB, so I carry one in my MA bag - don't wear it, though.  I almost lost it to the airport security when they searched my bag.  I told them it was a gift for someone.  Interesting, because they stopped me in PDX, but not LAX.
> 
> Anyway, if you have a MA teacher or know one who trains LEOs, perhaps he can certify you in CB-I and CB-II so you can train LEOs also.  Then, you have a reason to have one with you - you teach LEOs CB.



Caveat emptor:

What state are you in? 

Certified how and by whom? That is one question that a LEO might ask you. Did you receive certifcation ther the P.O.S.T. board in your state? You may want to research your State and local laws concerning carry and concealment of such weapons.  In many states carry of collapsible batons is highly restricted and can land you in the clink on concealed weapon charges.  

Many LEO supply companies (such as GAULS) throughout the country won't sell such items to customers without a FAX or PDF of your credentials.  Also, the major manufacturers (ASP and Monodnak) normally only allow LEO and (some specialized) security personnel to attend their training programs. 

Please be further advised that should you dicide to carry one and end up using it in a self defense situation, *you* might be the one facing criminal charges. Civil charges may follow for you as well as the person who sold the item to you and the instructor who taught you how to use it.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Tim Kashino


----------



## tshadowchaser (Aug 28, 2004)

They are great for defence but unfortunatly the are considered a flail by the goverment of the USA and are most likely against federal law


----------



## Phil Elmore (Aug 28, 2004)

No, there is no federal law governing extending batons.  This is governed on a state by state basis.


----------



## dearnis.com (Aug 28, 2004)

The fact that you teach, ,even if you are certified to teach a LEO curriculum, does not also give you a CCW permit.  As Phil noted, the laws are on a state by state (and locality by locality) basis.


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 29, 2004)

I should state I am not suggesting (I understand it reads that way) that anyone carry any weapon under false pretenses or illegally.  Do understand the legal ramifications of carriage and use of any weapon you carry.  Carry your certification with you whenever you have the weapon with you (duh).

 As for how I was certified, I attended a certification training class in EB-I by an EB certified instructor whose identity is none of your business, and I live in Washington State.

 Since, Flatlander lives in *AHEM* Canada, could you, Sharp Phil, or any other posters on this thread, give him advice on the specific legalities?

 Flatlander, we've exchanged enough previously that I assume you recognize the intent of my post as not being that of condoning illegal carriage.  I do not know what the Canadian laws are as they specifically relate to civilian carriage or ownership.  Talk to your instructors about this...or...make your own decision, I guess.

 As I posted previously, try to train with someone who trains and can legally certify LEOs.  Who does this in Canada?  Will they train you too?  Do you have any interest in helping train LEOs?


----------



## Rob Broad (Aug 29, 2004)

The easiest way to get certification in Canda is to have Police officers as students, and get them to get permission to take you to any official seminars in the use of ASP.  From there you can probably work out how to be a certified teacher with the instructor of the course.  If they know that you are serious about woring with Law Enforcement they will help withthe process.  

The other way is to get a police officer as a student and have them bring theirs to class, or giv ethem teh money to purchase you one to train them with.




			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> I should state I am not suggesting (I understand it reads that way) that anyone carry any weapon under false pretenses or illegally.  Do understand the legal ramifications of carriage and use of any weapon you carry.  Carry your certification with you whenever you have the weapon with you (duh).
> 
> As for how I was certified, I attended a certification training class in EB-I by an EB certified instructor whose identity is none of your business, and I live in Washington State.
> 
> ...


----------



## K Williams (Aug 29, 2004)

The good companies that make collapsible batons are ASP( http://www.asp-net.com ) and Monadnock( http://www.batons.com ). Try to find a company in the US that ships to Canada. Of course, there's alway the possibility of the getting confiscated at Customs, and losing the money you spent on it...maybe even getting arrested?


----------



## Flatlander (Aug 29, 2004)

Good lord, they are much more expensive than I thought.  Maybe I'm better off just finding a nice branch or something....


----------



## Mark Weiser (Aug 29, 2004)

When I was in LE the only ones allowed to carry expandable batons were detectives or those that had to wear civies. 

We had holsters that fit under the arm or on the belt for a fast access. Anyway the sound and the click when drawn is enough to get someones attention lol. 

I remember one time when during a domestic dispute the only unit to arrive was a pair of detectives (Sedgwick County aka Wichita). The group of people were trying to crowd the scene trying to take a peek that was going on. 

The two Detectives had to get the point across and both of them said "Everyone please leave the immeadate area!" Meanwhile they drew their Asp and flicked them open. The Crowd stopped and looked at the weapons and decided it was in their own best interest to leave. 

The two detectives talked about it to us at the academy. They said there was no way they could have held the crowd back but the Bluff worked lol. I love it!!!


----------



## K Williams (Aug 29, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Good lord, they are much more expensive than I thought.  Maybe I'm better off just finding a nice branch or something....



Those are MSRP prices. Try online companies for cheaper prices...here's one.

http://www.1sks.com/store/asp-batons.html

The lightweight models have been known to bend...


----------



## Guro Harold (Aug 29, 2004)

Hi Flatlander,

If you want to start with a basic one, centuryfitness has one for about $20.00 USD.  Supposedly they ship internationally.

http://www.centuryfitness.com/webap...-1&parent_category_rn=13661&crumb=13501-13524

Palusut


----------



## K Williams (Aug 29, 2004)

Shipping to Canada is $20! :xtrmshock Then again, I guess that's not a lot considering it could be going to anywhere in Canada...  :idunno:


----------



## Stick Dummy (Aug 29, 2004)

Whining about price??? 

 Whats your life/personal safety worth?

  I teach ASP and can tell you from a number of class experiences, if you buy anything other than ASP or Monadnock, they will bend or break. Then its time to spend MORE money and personal time re-purchasing another one.

 I use the "lightweight" ASP aluminum variations (FA-16/21/26 for both classroom and technique bagwork), neither have EVER failed, or bent. In fact my preference is the lightweights, for deployment & striking speed over the steel models.  But then again I'm a spindley leetle guy barely larger than the baton.


Good Luck with Canadian regulations, they are at least as bad as Massachusetts.......... :barf:


----------



## Rob Broad (Aug 29, 2004)

It is a federal offense to import any device, implement or weapon that is in contravention of the Canadian Criminla code.  Penatlies for such can include imprisonment or fines up to $10 000.00

Find a legal way through the morass to obtaining your ASP.


----------



## Mark Weiser (Aug 29, 2004)

You can say it is a walking stick lol lol!!


----------



## DoxN4cer (Aug 30, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I should state I am not suggesting (I understand it reads that way) that anyone carry any weapon under false pretenses or illegally.  Do understand the legal ramifications of carriage and use of any weapon you carry.  Carry your certification with you whenever you have the weapon with you (duh).
> 
> As for how I was certified, I attended a certification training class in EB-I by an EB certified instructor whose identity is none of your business, and I live in Washington State...



I'm curious.  Does your certification carry any legal weight in terms of allowing you to carry such a tool in accordance with state and/or local law?  Like what darnis said; regardless of any private certification, having that document on your person may not be enough to get you out of a concealed weapon charge.  I'm not saying you're wrong.  I'm just saying be careful.

r/

Tim Kashino


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 30, 2004)

I do not like to reveal all that I carry and what I do not carry.  Thanks for your concern and I am aware of the danger of illegal weapons carriage.

 Did I say that enough times?

 I am aware of the danger of illegal weapons carriage and I do not recommend anyone carry any weapon under false or illegal pretenses.

 BTW - educate yourself in the laws in your country/state regarding weapons carriage so you can understand the ramifications of carrying any sharp, pointy object, blunt object, high-heeled shoe, brick, anvil, adz, sai, etcetera.

 Remember to check your laws.


----------



## DoxN4cer (Aug 30, 2004)

Ah, I've made another friend on MT.  How nice.  LOL

Tim Kashino


----------



## DoxN4cer (Aug 30, 2004)

I did a little research... Washington has some rather relaxed laws on the books; especially compared to CA and NY.  NY, BTW, spells it out in terms of what you would be justfied to do under specific circumstances.  

I'm considering a change in reseidency.

Tim Kashino


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 30, 2004)

If I came off as harsh, I apologize.  I really don't like getting too specific about weapons I may or may not carry - just a personal preference.  I did state that I am aware of the laws in WA and encourage everyone to research their local laws as well.  I don't like being pushed or questioned on this topic because I think carriage is a personal thing, so I will refrain from posting further on this thread.

 Thanks.


----------



## psi_radar (Aug 30, 2004)

I've got an ASP and the fit, finish and durability are excellent. I do hope the laws become a little more lax on these items, because they're a heck of a lot less lethal than firearms or knives but still quite an effective force multiplier. I find it ironic that it's harder to get a carry permit for this and other types of less-lethal weapons than a handgun.


----------



## DoxN4cer (Aug 30, 2004)

I perfer the "airweight" ASP products myself.  It allows for better control. Some might argue that they don't pack the whollup of a standard ASP baton, but trust me getting hit with any piece of metal doesn't tickle.  

r/

Tim Kashino


----------



## Flatlander (Aug 31, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Some might argue that they don't pack the whollup of a standard ASP baton, but trust me getting hit with any piece of metal doesn't tickle.


The ability to strike with greater frequency makes up for that though, yeah?


----------

