# Lajust system



## terryl965 (Mar 23, 2010)

I have been to a couple of events that have included the system and I have been disappointed to say the least, what is it that the USAT and the WTF see in this system? It does not work 3/4 of the time. It is a complete failure when it comes to being time efficent and that last thing is you have to really throw an inproper techniques with the roundhouse for it to score, I mean we teach the roundkick but that is going against everything that TKD has been teaching for years.


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## Manny (Mar 23, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I have been to a couple of events that have included the system and I have been disappointed to say the least, what is it that the USAT and the WTF see in this system? It does not work 3/4 of the time. It is a complete failure when it comes to being time efficent and that last thing is you have to really throw an inproper techniques with the roundhouse for it to score, I mean we teach the roundkick but that is going against everything that TKD has been teaching for years.


 
I feel the same, I havent see the sistem working actually but all I read abou it is bad. I really think that if we want TKD to be a more efective sport the electronic equipment is not the solution at all.

If we want TKD to be a better sport show we need to encourage the competitors to use clean well aimed techniques (fist and feet) to the permited areas of the body.Also we need to teach the judges or referees what a point must be. I've seen some matches were for example a three points to the head is awarded wiht a gentle kick that only tap in the helmet and in the worst just a gentle touch and then...... 3 pòints!!! camon.

Manny


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## mango.man (Mar 23, 2010)

The time efficiency matters are more the inability of the tournament operators to do things properly than an inherent problem with the gear itself.  At the US Open, once the gear was distributed to each ring and fighters we pre-staged into the gear, things ran quite well.  At Jr Worlds a few weeks ago, fighters were already in the gear before they came out on the floor.  At event starting next year, everyone will have to have their own gear so it will be on ahead of time as well, plus I imagine that it will cut down on the number of tournament participants since there aren't many out there that will be willing to drop several hundred dollars on each of a red and blue lajust crappy hogu.

With regards to Manny's point about 3 points for gently brushing the head...  Well, the rules do say "when any part of the foot touches the opponent's head, it shall be regarded as a score" and there is no mention about the amount of force.  Just the foot touching the head.  I have seen the same thing and at the same time, I have seen some just about take another person's head completely off their shoulders and get no points.  This is why eventually the lajust crappy electronic head gear will be put to use.

My primary issue with the lajust crappy system is that is is not designed to conform to the rules, such as having no sensors on the ball of the foot, which is a valid delivery mechanism.  "Any part of the foot, below the ankle" right?  And of course the hogu has no sensors on the back side.


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## Bones (Mar 23, 2010)

Mango,

I think the product is actually called LaCrap.


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## d1jinx (Mar 23, 2010)

I think USAT only jumped onboard because the WTF did.

Its all a good concept, but needs many more improvements.  I have an issue wearing someone elses sweaty *** hogu that is still steaming from their body heat.....  but the option is to own your own... which will almost seal the fate of lajust being the only used system in the US.  Once people start owning one system, they are not going to likely purchase others....


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## Gorilla (Mar 23, 2010)

The concept of the EBP was to take the bias out of the game.  With the 3 point head shot it has given the referees more control than they had.  Now they control the game with Kyungo's and head shots.  The EBP concept is failing.  Boy did my kids pick a strange sport!!!


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## terryl965 (Mar 23, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> The concept of the EBP was to take the bias out of the game. With the 3 point head shot it has given the referees more control than they had. Now they control the game with Kyungo's and head shots. The EBP concept is failing. Boy did my kids pick a strange sport!!!


 
Yea but what can we do about it nothing, but sit back and watch as the world of sport TKD goes round and round....


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## ATC (Mar 23, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I think USAT only jumped onboard because the WTF did.
> 
> Its all a good concept, but needs many more improvements. I have an issue wearing someone elses sweaty *** hogu that is still steaming from their body heat..... but the option is to own your own... which will almost seal the fate of lajust being the only used system in the US. Once people start owning one system, they are not going to likely purchase others....


WTF really dictates what the other orgs like USAT do. USAT is under WTF.

The thing I think is jacked up, is that we will need to purchase these things and there are still other players out there developing EBB systems. So what happens when WTF approves someone else and make that new apporoved system the offical system?

When tournaments are only 75 - 125 people and they start losing money I bet they drop the you must provide your own crap.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2010)

Sport fencing has required you to buy your own electronics for quite a while now.  It doesn't seem to have affected the quantity of fencers.  

How much does the system cost?  If it is comparable to what it costs for foil fencing, then changes in official gear are unlikely to cause any sort of drop off.

If it costs as much as kendo bogu, on the other hand, that would have a profound effect on who can pay the cost of entry.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Mar 24, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sport fencing has required you to buy your own electronics for quite a while now. It doesn't seem to have affected the quantity of fencers.
> 
> How much does the system cost? If it is comparable to what it costs for foil fencing, then changes in official gear are unlikely to cause any sort of drop off.
> 
> ...


 
Daniel it is $595.00 and you need to have two of them plus the socks is around $40.00 per pair. It is alot when you consider that the normal cast is around $75.00 and you only need one. Every time somebodys grows they need a new one.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Daniel it is $595.00 and you need to have two of them plus the socks is around $40.00 per pair. It is alot when you consider that the normal cast is around $75.00 and you only need one. Every time somebodys grows they need a new one.


That is much more expensive than electric fencing equipment and on par with the mid priced 2.0.mm machine made bogu (mine was about 650.00).  

That will definitely have an effect.

Just for comparison, saber fencers get the costliest gear, as they need an electric mask, jacket, wire, and I think a special glove, plus the saber.  Altogether, you're looking at about 400. for everything as I recall.  

Foil, which is by far the most popular of the three fencing weapons, requires a lame, a wire, and an electric foil, which together are less than two hundred on top of the normal protective gear (non electric mask, glove, jacket, and knickers), which can be had for as low as about 200.  Several manufacturers make electric starter sets that will cut the costs even further.

Epee requires only an electric epee and a wire.  Less than a hundred unless you want maraging steel.

Sounds like a hefty chunk of money, especially if, as you pointed out, you have a child who is likely to grow out of it.

Daniel


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## ATC (Mar 24, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That is much more expensive than electric fencing equipment and on par with the mid priced 2.0.mm machine made bogu (mine was about 650.00).
> 
> That will definitely have an effect.
> 
> ...


As Terry pointed out you will need two (one blue and the other red) at $500 to $600 each. So if you have one child competing that would be $1000 - $1200, but what if you have 2 or more you have to buy for? Now you are looking at $2000 - $2400 not including the socks. Now if said kids is only 13 - 14 years old and still growing then what do you do? They will out grow the darn things in a year or so.

Guess the numbers will drop, and a major drop off at that. Some young talented up coming kids will not develop due to this.

Really sad to see.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2010)

Perhaps instead of Lajust, they should call it Unjust?

My guess is that there will be an initial drop off, and after about three years or so (maybe less), prices will come down.  Remember when Blu-ray was over a grand less than three years ago?

The question is what will happen in the intervening three years.

Daniel


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## Manny (Mar 24, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> The concept of the EBP was to take the bias out of the game. With the 3 point head shot it has given the referees more control than they had. Now they control the game with Kyungo's and head shots. The EBP concept is failing. Boy did my kids pick a strange sport!!!


.

Gorilla is better to think your kids pick up a traditional martial art from Korea, that teach them self control,loyalty,to be humble and show respect to the people and an exelent way of learn how defend themselves if need it, don't you think?

Manny


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## Gorilla (Mar 24, 2010)

Manny said:


> .
> 
> Gorilla is better to think your kids pick up a traditional martial art from Korea, that teach them self control,loyalty,to be humble and show respect to the people and an exelent way of learn how defend themselves if need it, don't you think?
> 
> Manny



You are right I love all those things about TKD.  I am glad they do TKD! I just find the sport to be a little crazy.  Having said that my kids love the sport and dedicate their lives to it and I support them.  But from my position I find allot of things in the sport don't make allot of sense.


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## ATC (Mar 24, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Perhaps instead of Lajust, they should call it *Unjust*?...


Great parody name. I think I will start calling it that. Maybe if it catches on the powers that be will soon get the message.

From now on everyone should use the name *UnJust* when referring to the LaJust system.


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## mango.man (Mar 24, 2010)

ATC said:


> Great parody name. I think I will start calling it that. Maybe if it catches on the powers that be will soon get the message.
> 
> From now on everyone should use the name *UnJust* when referring to the LaJust system.



I will stick with "The lajust crap" or "the crappy lajust stuff"


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## terryl965 (Mar 24, 2010)

With three kids and a wife that still competes I am screwed, I need another job just to pay for the equipment next year.


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## bluekey88 (Mar 24, 2010)

My two kids and I compete.  I'll have to stop and so will my son.  Not even sure the lay out cost is worth it for my daughter (she'll never be an elite TKDist...she just loves to compete).

Sheesh.  very disheartening news.

Peace,
Erik


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## Gorilla (Mar 24, 2010)

bluekey88 said:


> My two kids and I compete.  I'll have to stop and so will my son.  Not even sure the lay out cost is worth it for my daughter (she'll never be an elite TKDist...she just loves to compete).
> 
> Sheesh.  very disheartening news.
> 
> ...



AAU is good option if you want to compete


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## Manny (Mar 24, 2010)

I am not a competitor so this thing about the crapy electronic equipment does not afecte me, but if I had a child who loved to compet and need it the electronic hogus (two one red and another blue) and two pair of e-socks this would cost me twice as mucha as you guys because of the customs taxes.

I'm going to go a little further, in my dojang all the kids that go training are in some point worth people, their parents have good salaries however paying as much as 1200 us dollars per hogu I think that is beyond the expectation of any TKD parent.

I think in my country there will be very few TKD competitors that will have the e-gear and most of them will be olimpic atlethes sponsored by my goverment but we are talking of a few ELITE fighters, the rest of the people will continue using the regular gear.

The only tournaments I know e-gear was used was in Tijuana a couple of weeks before in the international junior championships and maybe in the Ligfa of TKD last yera when Steven lopez was KYOD, all the rest of the competitions no matter natioanl,state or regional are using the regular stuff.

Manny


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## mango.man (Mar 24, 2010)

In the USA all national events will use the gear going forward.  USAT will provide for the rest of this year.  Further WTF international events such as the recently concluded German Open.  The really fun part is going to be that when you go to an event like the currently in progress Dutch Open, even if you own the LaJust crappy stuff, you get to buy "Daedo Socks" and perhaps next year, buy Daedo e-hogus to go with your LaJust crappy set of hogus.  Not sure how much the Daedo stuff costs, but I hear it is at least slightly better than the crappy lajust stuff.

My guess is that most parents wont hand over the money.  Some will.  Others, the schools will purchase several sets of the gear to take for all of their team that goes to events that need the gear.  Of course those that do this, will make up the cost by charging more per student per month or perhaps start charging a fee for "Team Members" if they don't already.  So still the parents will have to pay, but it will be an easier pill to swallow if they are doing so at say $10 per month increased training fee.


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## d1jinx (Mar 24, 2010)

You know.... this just pisses me off.

Sure when more people buy, the price will drop.  But not everyone can afford to buy.  OR WANT TO.

So those kids who are ACTUALLY better but dont have the funds to travel and now wont have the funds to buy that junk wont get the opurtunity.

And the rich kids wil continue to have the advantage and opportunity unlike the rest of the world.


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## mango.man (Mar 25, 2010)

Bottom line is, if you want to play the game at a world class level, you gotta be willing to write a world class check.  

Anybody that thinks for a moment that Michelle Kwan's parents spent $30 bucks on a pair of ice skates or Mary Lou Retton's parents spent $10 on a leotard and otherwise they had no expenses is seriously kidding themselves.  Sticking with the Michelle Kwan angle I seem to recall reading that her parents once had 3 mortgages on their house and eventually ended up moving in with a brother or uncle or something so that they could fund her $100,000+ per year skating career.

Probably showing my age with those examples, but I can pretty much promise you that the parent of just about every Olympian in the past 30 years has spent 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars each year on costs associated with their kids sport.  This doesn't mean that TKD needs to succumb to that level of insanity, but it really seems quite inevitable.  

I am sure that there are a lot of skaters and gymnasts out there that are better than Michelle and Mary Lou were in their prime, but they will never get their shot because their parents can't afford the cost it will take to get them to that level of recognition.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 25, 2010)

I can imagine a lot of parents saying wait a second here.....  I need to spend how much for them to compete?  Maybe I and my kid's will do some thing else.  Like soccer where it costs $30 to $50 for a season.


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2010)

mango.man we all understand making certain scacifices for the betterment of said child but forgive me here Mary Lou did not have an uneven bar that was warped and Michele skates where not dull. The point is the cost would be justified if the dam thing worked like it is suppose to. My bigeest complaint is the equipment is not up to pair to be using it yet and it may never be.

Money is just that money it can be made and it will be spent but to be pouring money into the bottom of a pit is silly, I will and always will do what needs to be done for my childern, just like coming to Vegas for that little get together a price tag cannot be put on that but it can on bad equipment.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 25, 2010)

mango.man said:


> Bottom line is, if you want to play the game at a world class level, you gotta be willing to write a world class check.
> 
> Anybody that thinks for a moment that Michelle Kwan's parents spent $30 bucks on a pair of ice skates or Mary Lou Retton's parents spent $10 on a leotard and otherwise they had no expenses is seriously kidding themselves.  Sticking with the Michelle Kwan angle I seem to recall reading that her parents once had 3 mortgages on their house and eventually ended up moving in with a brother or uncle or something so that they could fund her $100,000+ per year skating career.
> 
> Probably showing my age with those examples,


Probably showing my age in acknowledging that I remember when they were in the olympics.

Given that only about four people will make it to the olympics every four years, I am not sure that holding up Michelle Kwan is the best analogy.  Also, Michelle Kwan's 500.00 skates will make her perform better and likely will keep her feet from getting worn out or injured.  Considering that skates are essentially a shoe with a blade, they have all of the requirements of a good athletic shoe and all of the requirements of a good blade.

But your hogu will not make you perform better.  Your 500 dollar hogu will not prevent injury any better than my 100 dollar reversible hogu.  

Given that taekwondo is essentially boxing with one's feet, I seriously question the need for electronic gear.  They do not use electronic gloves in boxing, which certainly could make a stronger case for the need. Fencing requires it because of the speed of the tips, which is much, much faster than a punch or a kick (fastest moving object in sports after the bullet fired from a riffle).

I'm not a competitor, so none of this really impacts me.  But it does seem that electronic scoring simply adds cost and complexity to the sport without enhancing it in any way.



mango.man said:


> but I can pretty much promise you that the  parent of just about every Olympian in the past 30 years has spent 10's  if not 100's of thousands of dollars each year on costs associated with  their kids sport.  This doesn't mean that TKD needs to succumb to that  level of insanity, but it really seems quite inevitable.


Sadly, you are probably correct.


Daniel


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## StudentCarl (Mar 25, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I can imagine a lot of parents saying wait a second here..... I need to spend how much for them to compete? Maybe I and my kid's will do some thing else. Like soccer where it costs $30 to $50 for a season.


 
Only for your neighborhood rec. league with volunteer parent coaches. We've been the high-level soccer route. The equipment isn't so bad, but the instructional costs are. You're going to run into this in any activity at the higher levels, IMO.

Carl


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## taekwondodo (Mar 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> mango.man we all understand making certain scacifices for the betterment of said child but forgive me here Mary Lou did not have an uneven bar that was warped and Michele skates where not dull. The point is the cost would be justified if the dam thing worked like it is suppose to. My bigeest complaint is the equipment is not up to pair to be using it yet and it may never be.
> 
> Money is just that money it can be made and it will be spent but to be pouring money into the bottom of a pit is silly, I will and always will do what needs to be done for my childern, just like coming to Vegas for that little get together a price tag cannot be put on that but it can on bad equipment.


 Ummmm..Master Terry,
The equipements works.  Granted that the Hogu once in awhile losts its connection with the receiver, so the Hogu has to be re-registered again.  It take an operator to understand the equipments and how the software works and adjust accordingly.

I had the same problem when I start using it a month or so ago.  But with many time using it, it runs pretty smoothly.  I own a set ( 2 hogu and a receiver) and my Master has 3 sets and we do not have many problems that we had to say "Its a piece of junk".


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## Gorilla (Mar 25, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Only for your neighborhood rec. league with volunteer parent coaches. We've been the high-level soccer route. The equipment isn't so bad, but the instructional costs are. You're going to run into this in any activity at the higher levels, IMO.
> 
> Carl



My Daughter is an ODP soccer player and has played club for years it is just as expensive maybe more than TKD.  Total budget for my kids(2) athletics is 20k per year.  If I have to buy EBP some travel will have to be eliminated.  Probably 5 trips to Cali per year will go away.


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> Ummmm..Master Terry,
> The equipements works. Granted that the Hogu once in awhile losts its connection with the receiver, so the Hogu has to be re-registered again. It take an operator to understand the equipments and how the software works and adjust accordingly.
> 
> I had the same problem when I start using it a month or so ago. But with many time using it, it runs pretty smoothly. I own a set ( 2 hogu and a receiver) and my Master has 3 sets and we do not have many problems that we had to say "Its a piece of junk".


 

Look I am not here to start anything but the equipment has alot of problems, every single USAT event has had it problems with it and I know your Master very well. Since you do not want to say his name I shall not either but even he has said there is problems with it as well. When competition takes longer and equipment failures happens quite often than there is problems, even Lajust says they need to make chamges to make the equipment better. 

I do not know why you are sticking up fot the equipment, but you have every right to do that. I have been in the TKD world for ober forty years and sen alot of changes over that timeframe and believe me it needs alot of work to get to the top, but then again it is what it is and we have to make adjustments to play the game.

In closin I will ask once more to be address as Terry not Master Terry if you insist on callinf me Master something my last mane is Stoker so Master Stoker would be better than Master Terry. Sorry but I am not formal about a rank unless it is being used wrong.

P.S. no hard fellings about anything and what is so wonderful we can dis-agree and still have that common bound between us TKD....:asian:


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> Ummmm..Master Terry,
> The equipements works. Granted that the Hogu once in awhile losts its connection with the receiver, so the Hogu has to be re-registered again. It take an operator to understand the equipments and how the software works and adjust accordingly.
> 
> I had the same problem when I start using it a month or so ago. But with many time using it, it runs pretty smoothly. I own a set ( 2 hogu and a receiver) and my Master has 3 sets and we do not have many problems that we had to say "Its a piece of junk".


 

And by the way one more thing why is it you address everything to me and not the other people that thinke the equipment is bad? I mean nothing is said the ATC or mango.man about there comments? I must be loved so much that only my words are read aloud.... Sorry just had to point that out for you since it does seem you are directing everything said to me and me only..


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 25, 2010)

You're just more popular than the rest of us, Terry.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2010)

Oh and for the record I am glad you can offord to buy them, you see I need to buy four sets of them since I have a wife and three son's that compete so the cost is a little much for a school teacher pay but maybe my Taco Bell part time job can help me offord to keep my familt competing of course this is total scarcasm. 

Come on laigh people this is the flight of e-hogu's and the death of fair play.


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You're just more popular than the rest of us, Terry.
> 
> Daniel


 
Man to be loved is just a curse I tell ya!


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## d1jinx (Mar 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> mango.man we all understand making certain scacifices for the betterment of said child but forgive me here Mary Lou did not have an uneven bar that was warped and Michele skates where not dull. The point is the cost would be justified if the dam thing worked like it is suppose to. My bigeest complaint is the equipment is not up to pair to be using it yet and it may never be.
> 
> Money is just that money it can be made and it will be spent but to be pouring money into the bottom of a pit is silly, I will and always will do what needs to be done for my childern, just like coming to Vegas for that little get together a price tag cannot be put on that but it can on bad equipment.


 
Agreed.  When and IF you get to that level, sure, spend the money to continue advancing.... but to go to ANY sanctioned events??????  I see the number of competitors dropping drastically.

If I had a student who was on tract and at that level, I would not let that stop him/her, but the others who aren't?  Are they supposed to not compete anymore?


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## mango.man (Mar 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> And by the way one more thing why is it you address everything to me and not the other people that thinke the equipment is bad? I mean nothing is said the ATC or mango.man about there comments? I must be loved so much that only my words are read aloud.... Sorry just had to point that out for you since it does seem you are directing everything said to me and me only..



I don't say it's bad.  I say it's crappy.  Not sure if there is a difference there or not.


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## d1jinx (Mar 25, 2010)

mango.man said:


> I don't say it's bad. I say it's crappy. Not sure if there is a difference there or not.


 
Just dont get it wet.


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2010)

mango.man said:


> I don't say it's bad. I say it's crappy. Not sure if there is a difference there or not.


 

you are right crappy is so much better than bad. I mean I need to know what is the difference.


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## ATC (Mar 25, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> Ummmm..Master Terry,
> The equipements works. Granted that the Hogu once in awhile losts its connection with the receiver, so the Hogu has to be re-registered again. It take an operator to understand the equipments and how the software works and adjust accordingly.
> 
> I had the same problem when I start using it a month or so ago. But with many time using it, it runs pretty smoothly. I own a set ( 2 hogu and a receiver) and my Master has 3 sets and we do not have many problems that we had to say "Its a piece of junk".


Well I have to disagree about the system working. They just figured out that cell phone interfere with the system. Many of the resets you speak about are now being suggested that it was due to a cell phone. That is a BIG problem.

Half of the hogus have already been beat to death and just don't work anymore. Anyone that knows anything about electronics knows that after some harsh use, they simply ware out. Check any game console controller you have had to replace many times. They are built for the use you are giving them but they still need to be replaces quite often.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 25, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Only for your neighborhood rec. league with volunteer parent coaches. We've been the high-level soccer route. The equipment isn't so bad, but the instructional costs are. You're going to run into this in any activity at the higher levels, IMO.
> 
> Carl



Oh no doubt about it for elite level athletes, soccer travel leagues, etc.  I know all about that trust me.  However, where do those elite level athletes come from if not from the neighborhood recreation leagues, etc.  You see in order to have a sport that has the highest level you also have to have multiple layers of lower level leagues that are user friendly and cost efficient so that you actually have a ground based movement.  Look at American soccer for instance and how many years it has taken to become pretty good.  We did not have a great movement and the superior athletes went to football, basketball, etc. in High School.  It is a little better now but definitely not on the same level as Europe and the rest of the world.  Having anyone who wants to compete have to by the lajsut system is ridiculous and really makes you wonder how much of a kickback they are getting.  Corruption at its finest!


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## Archtkd (Mar 25, 2010)

mango.man said:


> Bottom line is, if you want to play the game at a world class level, you gotta be willing to write a world class check.
> 
> Anybody that thinks for a moment that Michelle Kwan's parents spent $30 bucks on a pair of ice skates or Mary Lou Retton's parents spent $10 on a leotard and otherwise they had no expenses is seriously kidding themselves. Sticking with the Michelle Kwan angle I seem to recall reading that her parents once had 3 mortgages on their house and eventually ended up moving in with a brother or uncle or something so that they could fund her $100,000+ per year skating career.
> 
> ...


 
This is why my people from Kenya stick to long distance running. If they can't afford the mucho dollar shoes they can do without them and still win at any major meet. Jokes aside, though, how are Taekwondoists from developing countries expected to ever afford the Unjust system?


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## LaJust (Apr 13, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Daniel it is $595.00 and you need to have two of them plus the socks is around $40.00 per pair. It is alot when you consider that the normal cast is around $75.00 and you only need one. Every time somebodys grows they need a new one.



The cost of the LaJust Electronic Hogu in the USA is between $479-$499  depending on size and the better news is the new version being produced now (version 8) has reversable colors so it can be used for either Blue or Red so you do not need to have both! The version 8 Hogu will also eliminate the "wet punches" cheat and is even more durable than the current version (we test it daily with baseball bats which is a great stress reliever too!). 

By the way, everyone at LaJust Sports America is a passionate supporter or practitioner of Taekwondo with our children in the sport too so we live and breath how the products work every week in our personal lives so we really do end up taking the job home with us!


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## Archtkd (Apr 13, 2010)

LaJust said:


> The cost of the LaJust Electronic Hogu in the USA is between $479-$499  depending on size and the better news is the new version being produced now (version 8) has reversable colors so it can be used for either Blue or Red so you do not need to have both! The version 8 Hogu will also eliminate the "wet punches" cheat and is even more durable than the current version (we test it daily with baseball bats which is a great stress reliever too!).
> 
> By the way, everyone at LaJust Sports America is a passionate supporter or practitioner of Taekwondo with our children in the sport too so we live and breath how the products work every week in our personal lives so we really do end up taking the job home with us!



Whether you like the LaJust system or not. this is is a good effort of fair clarification. At least the company is paying attention to what  customers and potential customers at MT and its fan base are saying.


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## terryl965 (Apr 13, 2010)

LaJust said:


> The cost of the LaJust Electronic Hogu in the USA is between $479-$499 depending on size and the better news is the new version being produced now (version 8) has reversable colors so it can be used for either Blue or Red so you do not need to have both! The version 8 Hogu will also eliminate the "wet punches" cheat and is even more durable than the current version (we test it daily with baseball bats which is a great stress reliever too!).
> 
> By the way, everyone at LaJust Sports America is a passionate supporter or practitioner of Taekwondo with our children in the sport too so we live and breath how the products work every week in our personal lives so we really do end up taking the job home with us!


 
Sorry $499 is so much better than $595, you see I am glad you are making progress and everything. So tell me this are they going to use the new version at National in Florida? If so can you throw the proper kick and have it scored? right now it needs to be a angle roundhouse and not the typical chambering type? I will wait and see your reply.....


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## mango.man (Apr 13, 2010)

Hello LaJust Rep,

Can we please get socks that secure with Velcro so that zippers do not constantly break causing me to fork over another $45 time after time?

Oh and if there are prizes for making such excellent suggestions as the one above, please contact me via private message for where to send my complementary LaJust e-hogu set.

Oh here is another suggestion:  Add some type of foam padding to the inside of the instep portion of the sock so that I do not have to pad my kid's foot and then try to get the sock on over the padding.  If the padding is included in the sock, like the socks we all had to buy a couple of years ago that were only useful for 1 year before the mandatory socks were banned, than there is no need for any other padding.  If possible, the padding should somehow be removable so that in the events where instep padding is mandatory, such as USAT events, we can put it in, but at WTF events where it is optional, we can take it out if we are more comfortable fighting without it like my kids is.


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## Gorilla (Apr 13, 2010)

LaJust said:


> The cost of the LaJust Electronic Hogu in the USA is between $479-$499  depending on size and the better news is the new version being produced now (version 8) has reversable colors so it can be used for either Blue or Red so you do not need to have both! The version 8 Hogu will also eliminate the "wet punches" cheat and is even more durable than the current version (we test it daily with baseball bats which is a great stress reliever too!).
> 
> By the way, everyone at LaJust Sports America is a passionate supporter or practitioner of Taekwondo with our children in the sport too so we live and breath how the products work every week in our personal lives so we really do end up taking the job home with us!



I am very impressed that you came on this BBS.  The Lajust system has taken a beating on this board.

My major complaint is that it is to thick and bulky.  Takes the shock out of the game.  The body shots don't hurt nearly as much as with other hogus and those who kick hard to the body don't get the impact.  No shots to the backside is another issue!  You have to change your game to fit the Hogu.  The Hogu should have been designed to fit the game.  The backside is a legal scoring area(why no sensors).

The DAEDO TRUE SCORE System seems to be a better system.  We will use it in Spain in a few weeks.  I would like to know your thoughts around what differentiates your product from the other EBP systems out there? 

It is good to know that you are concerned about the sport and are involved.

Thanks for posting on the Board!


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## taekwondodo (Apr 13, 2010)

LaJust said:


> The cost of the LaJust Electronic Hogu in the USA is between $479-$499  depending on size and the better news is the new version being produced now (version 8) has reversable colors so it can be used for either Blue or Red so you do not need to have both! The version 8 Hogu will also eliminate the "wet punches" cheat and is even more durable than the current version (we test it daily with baseball bats which is a great stress reliever too!).
> 
> By the way, everyone at LaJust Sports America is a passionate supporter or practitioner of Taekwondo with our children in the sport too so we live and breath how the products work every week in our personal lives so we really do end up taking the job home with us!


Hey you guys are brave posting here, but welcome to the board anyway.

I was wondering, which comes first at 2010 US OPEN.. my suggestion on the neutral hogu with the reversible blue/red and the main body is neutral in color OR this was in the works for a long time?

Here are few ideas on socks issue:

1.  Another idea is that you can have electronic sensor USING the athletes own insteps WITHOUT using the socks.

2. If WTF INSIST on having the socks, make it adjustable..how?
now that idea is under construction.  I am mocking up few and testing it with other kids using their insteps.

My husband, who is an EE and knows about programing said to incorporate a 30 seconds warning system that have a YELLOW warning light and turn RED when the time is up. This way, the center Ref can be able to see how much time they have left to manage the rings.  He said it is not too hard program it into the system.


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## LaJust (Apr 14, 2010)

mango.man said:


> Can we please get socks that secure with Velcro so that zippers do not constantly break causing me to fork over another $45 time after time?



Hi, I'm sorry if you have paid for multiple socks. If the zipper breaks AT ANY TIME we will replace them at no charge (even after the normal 3 month warranty they have) as that was a manufacturing defect that has since been corrected. I've overnighted replacement socks to people when they have competitions coming up. Just call or email us and we take care of it immediately at no cost to you.



mango.man said:


> Oh here is another suggestion:  Add some type of foam padding to the inside of the instep portion of the sock so that I do not have to pad my kid's foot and then try to get the sock on over the padding.  If the padding is included in the sock, like the socks we all had to buy a couple of years ago that were only useful for 1 year before the mandatory socks were banned, than there is no need for any other padding.  If possible, the padding should somehow be removable so that in the events where instep padding is mandatory, such as USAT events, we can put it in, but at WTF events where it is optional, we can take it out if we are more comfortable fighting without it like my kids is.



I hear you! We have been working with the USAT, WTF and the production facilities in Korea to come up with a solution for this. I know it sounds like it should be simple but when you are dealing with the WTF and certification requirements of every part of our equipment and because it is only an issue in the USA it has been far more complex to get a new design made and approved than we ever expected. The good news is we see the light at the end of the tunnel and expect to have socks with padding for the under 13s once final approval has been given to us. We are still waiting on approval for our head gear and I've no timeframes on that.


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## LaJust (Apr 14, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> I am very impressed that you came on this BBS.  The Lajust system has taken a beating on this board.
> 
> My major complaint is that it is to thick and bulky.  Takes the shock out of the game.  The body shots don't hurt nearly as much as with other hogus and those who kick hard to the body don't get the impact.  No shots to the backside is another issue!  You have to change your game to fit the Hogu.  The Hogu should have been designed to fit the game.  The backside is a legal scoring area(why no sensors).
> 
> ...



I'm wearing my flame retardant underpants :xtrmshock and I love reading the interesting new names various posters have renamed our company name to  

In case anyone is genuinely curious, LaJust was started over 20 years ago and "La" is the first name of the daughter of the inventor and "Just" is a shortened version of "Justice" representing the ultimate goal of making a system that reduces or eliminates "injustice" to competitors. 

Of course, we know no system is perfect and right now you are only using half the system because our hand and head gear hasn't been approved by the WTF so the judges still have a lot of influence over the final scoring which we know is highly contentious. I'd only ask you hold your final judgements until you see the full (head and body) system being used.

Regarding the size and bulkiness of the equipment and the location of the scoring zones the answer isn't as simple as we'd like. LaJust has to work with the WTF and various subcommittees for approval of every part of our equipment and software and that can take years before you see the final approved product. Sometimes, people on those boards have their own agendas (hard to believe I know...) which influences approval and we have to modify our design to accomodate those viewpoints if we want the equipment approved. The increased padding was added to appease those who wanted more competitor protection especially for the kidney area and the scoring zone for the back was also mandated to get approval and I assume the same groups were likely responsible for the WTF rule change on valid scoring areas too. The people in those positions come and go and so these decisions may change over time as we submit new updates (or our competitors do) and get new judgements given. _Technically, there is nothing that stops us making an incredibly thin Hogu and have it go all the way around the back. The biggest thing you can do if you want to see change is petition the WTF _

As to our competitors, I don't wish to abuse this forum for advertising or bashing other companies (and I hope they would do the same) but I'm happy to discuss our technology and how it works.


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## LaJust (Apr 14, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> Hey you guys are brave posting here, but welcome to the board anyway.
> 
> I was wondering, which comes first at 2010 US OPEN.. my suggestion on the neutral hogu with the reversible blue/red and the main body is neutral in color OR this was in the works for a long time?



Thanks. Long time lurker, first time poster  Time will tell if it is bravery or simply foolishness 

As you can hopefully appreciate, it can take a long time to get things approved by the WTF and we generally refrain from public discussions on things until we are in the final stages of approval. The change in Electronic Hogu design to be a neutral color was an internal discussion that happened last year along with the first discussions on the need to change the socks for the US. 

We expect to have the new (version 8) hogu in the US and Canada in about 8-10 weeks. Another discussion we have had is what we can do for our suporters who have made a commitment by purchasing our Hogus. Of course they will continue to work but we've designed an upgrade kit with the new electronics and new sensors and while we were considering making it available at our cost we  have decided that just as we did previously with the upgraded receiver, the upgrade kit will also be available at no charge for existing US and Canada customers who purchased from www.lajustsports.com. _Now if only Apple would follow our example and give me iPhone upgrades for free haha... :lfao:
_


taekwondodo said:


> My husband, who is an EE and knows about programing said to incorporate a 30 seconds warning system that have a YELLOW warning light and turn RED when the time is up. This way, the center Ref can be able to see how much time they have left to manage the rings.  He said it is not too hard program it into the system.



Can you give me more detail on this suggestion and I'd be happy to send it to the development team in Korea.


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2010)

La Just let me ask you this can we get your real first name? I know it is small request but I am more at ease with a real name, second which sysytem will be at National in Orlando? Can you ever do anything about a straight forward kick, when will tey be able to be scored, you see now it needs to be like a scape and not a direct line to be scored? Last thing when has the back portion not been a scoring area? I was under the impression the back up to the spine is legal but yet no scensors to score these point, it leave alot of double and triple kicks not scoreable?

Once again thanks for coming on and answering all the question for us.:asian:


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## Archtkd (Apr 14, 2010)

LaJust said:


> Thanks. Long time lurker, first time poster  Time will tell if it is bravery or simply foolishness .



I wouldn't describe this as bravery or foolishness. I think it's good business sense. Very many companies have lost lots of business by failing to engage customers, potential customers and critics in a meaningful discussion -- in social media channels such as MT. 

To follow up on another poster's query about the foot scoring. Shouldn't the EBP system be designed in way that allows for any part of the foot to score? that would include ball and blade of foot, which some people always assume cannot score in a WTF match. If I am wrong I stand to be corrected. Current WTF rules, in Article 11 - 2 say: "Delivering techniques using any part of the foot below the ankle bone," are valid techniques. In Article 12-2: The rules are: "Points shall be awarded when permitted techniques are delivered accurately and powerfully to the legal scoring area."  

On another note, is the company trying to find ways make the EBP more affordable in  developing countries. $495 is still a difficult sum in places like  my homeland Kenya, where the annual GDP per capita is about $800. Yes,  the government there does get involved in funding sports at the national  team level, but lower down the ranks it's extremely difficult for individuals and even clubs find money to purchase  basic equipment, leave alone EBPs.


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## taekwondodo (Apr 14, 2010)

LaJust said:


> As you can hopefully appreciate, it can take a long time to get things approved by the WTF and we generally refrain from public discussions on things until we are in the final stages of approval. The change in Electronic Hogu design to be a neutral color was an internal discussion that happened last year along with the first discussions on the need to change the socks for the US.
> 
> We expect to have the new (version 8) hogu in the US and Canada in about 8-10 weeks. Another discussion we have had is what we can do for our suporters who have made a commitment by purchasing our Hogus. Of course they will continue to work but we've designed an upgrade kit with the new electronics and new sensors and while we were considering making it available at our cost we have decided that just as we did previously with the upgraded receiver, the upgrade kit will also be available at no charge for existing US and Canada customers who purchased from www.lajustsports.com. _Now if only Apple would follow our example and give me iPhone upgrades for free haha... :lfao:_
> 
> ...


I am looking forward to "upgrade" my set. It is a good thing LaJust is doing because my system is only few weeks old.

As for enhancing the system. WTF have to understand that US and Canada is two totally different markets from the overseas market. Different culture with different wants and needs. Therefore, what ever is and well over there doesn't really = what is good for US/Canada customers. Some features is good for all but not for others.

Because of the different market demand, there should be a different socks with different features for those market. Feet sizes over seas measured differently than in the US so the socks has to adjust accordingly.

It is part of marketing and mfg process before products hit the market to that particular area. * I used to design KA small appliances that sells to the Europe and Asia market*


As for the 30 second light warning, my husband volunteered to operate the system in a ring at TX State Champ. and did discussed this with one of LaJust system.  The LaJust rep stated that it was a good idea, but WTF has to approve.

Waita minute... WTF is a customer, USTA, Canada..etc is also customers.  LaJust is the Manufacturer that produce this products.  LaJust comes to WTF with an idea/product "hey..we got a products for you to use in the ring"..WTF involved with the designs..WTF approved the design for the ASIA TKD market.
Who own the products and design?  LaJust company.

So with that said, why can't LaJust design a modified product for the Northern America market w/o going thru WTF?  The only time we need to have WTF "approval" is when each country participate in the WTF sanctioned event such as US OPEN, World Champ, the Olympic..etc.

But for national events we can use the "modified" products that would fits our needs.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 14, 2010)

LaJust said:


> The cost of the LaJust Electronic Hogu in the USA is between $479-$499  depending on size and the better news is the new version being produced now (version 8) has reversable colors so it can be used for either Blue or Red so you do not need to have both! *The version 8 Hogu will also eliminate the "wet punches" cheat* and is even more durable than the current version (we test it daily with baseball bats which is a great stress reliever too!).


What is a wet punch?  And how is it a cheat?  Is there a wet kick?  And is that a cheat as well?

And welcome to MT!

Daniel


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## ATC (Apr 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What is a wet punch? And how is it a cheat? Is there a wet kick? And is that a cheat as well?
> 
> And welcome to MT!
> 
> Daniel


Well from what I have been told. Early on with the LaJust system, some found out that if you wet your glove or even sock then it would score because of the water somehow. I also heard that they used foil to do the same thing. They would wrap foil under there sock and shin to help with scoring. There were a few other tricks as well. Now the judges look for this stuff.


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## ATC (Apr 14, 2010)

This is also for LaJust. What about the issue with cell phones being the casue of some issues? I heard this was the case for a few matches at the the 2010 US Open.


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## mango.man (Apr 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Last thing when has the back portion not been a scoring area? I was under the impression the back up to the spine is legal but yet no scensors to score these point, it leave alot of double and triple kicks not scoreable?
> 
> Once again thanks for coming on and answering all the question for us.:asian:



Terry, the last 2 revisions of the rules on wtf.org have described the legal scoring area of the trunk as being the areas covered by red and blue portions of the hogu.

That is foggy at best, but in the end I suppose it means that if the back is covered by red or blue on the hogu, than it is a legal scoring area but if it is not, such as with the lajust hogu, than it is not a legal scoring area.

There is nothing in the rules that I can see that describe the back as being a legal scoring area any longer.  The only reference I see that must be covered with a red or blue portion of the hogu is the trunk from the armpit to the pelvis.


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2010)

You are right mango.man but let me print something for you that is told to all referees even the International ones,

The color area of the trunk protector is a legal attacking area; not the straps. This includes the flanks, but not the spine itself. The entire head, including the neck, is a legal attracking area.(foot techniques only)

When any part of the foot strikes within a permitted area, it is considered a valid technique, and may result in a point if other criteria are meet; the entire foot does not have to make contact.

If the above holds true than why is sensor only on part of the foot because by the rules every inch is scoreable? I know nobody can really answer this question but the system takes away from what is consider a legal area to kick and land kicks with.


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## mango.man (Apr 14, 2010)

I am 100% with you on the sock sensor issue.  I think it should cover the entire foot.  I am guessing that doing that though, the sensors that would end up on the ball of the foot, would either wear out very quickly or cause a lack of balance / cause players to slip since a fighters weight is almost exclusively on the balls of their feet for the duration of the fight.

Reading directly from the rules on the WTF website, The head is clearly defined as "2)	Head: The area above the collar bone" which is pretty clear and leaves no room for interpretation.  Front, back, side, top, face etc it's all the head.  Where there is room for interpretation is where the rules say that it will be regarded as a point when any part of the foot "touches" the head. because a touch to me means, regardless of power etc if my toe, comes in slight contact with any part of your head, I deserve 3 points.  But we all know that does not happen.

The body however is not so clearly defined in the rules.  "1)	Trunk: Attack by fist and foot techniques on the areas covered by the trunk protector are permitted. However, such attacks shall not be made on the part of the spine." and further defined as "Trunk: As depicted in the following illustration, the area covered by the trunk protector between the armpit and the pelvis is the legal attacking area. Thus, trunk protector should be worn according to the rule on the size of trunk protector for each weight category and the physique of each contestant."  

That my friend leaves a huge hole open for interpretation and, in my opinion, is what allows LaJust to get away with hogus that do not wrap around the back.


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2010)

mango.man said:


> I am 100% with you on the sock sensor issue. I think it should cover the entire foot. I am guessing that doing that though, the sensors that would end up on the ball of the foot, would either wear out very quickly or cause a lack of balance / cause players to slip since a fighters weight is almost exclusively on the balls of their feet for the duration of the fight.
> 
> Reading directly from the rules on the WTF website, The head is clearly defined as "2)    Head: The area above the collar bone" which is pretty clear and leaves no room for interpretation. Front, back, side, top, face etc it's all the head. Where there is room for interpretation is where the rules say that it will be regarded as a point when any part of the foot "touches" the head. because a touch to me means, regardless of power etc if my toe, comes in slight contact with any part of your head, I deserve 3 points. But we all know that does not happen.
> 
> ...


 

This my friend is only one small problem how to interpet any and all of the rules, I know in international play the rules vary somewhat but we must adapt and learn all aspect of the sport to really be a top level competitor.


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## mango.man (Apr 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> This my friend is only one small problem how to interpet any and all of the rules, I know in international play the rules vary somewhat but we must adapt and learn all aspect of the sport to really be a top level competitor.



I cant argue with that


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## LaJust (Apr 15, 2010)

ATC said:


> This is also for LaJust. What about the issue with cell phones being the casue of some issues? I heard this was the case for a few matches at the the 2010 US Open.


That is a great question and to answer it properly I'm going to try and give you some understanding at a high level on our radio technology, so please bear with me 

Our RF system is actually very complex. It has to be to allow hundreds of chest protectors and dozens of rings all turned on and communicating at the same time in a small area without degrading. This is something that just can't be achieved with consumer technologies like WiFi or Bluetooth so we designed our own proprietary system. We used the services of a company in California that designs communications systems for the tomahawk missile so they know what they are doing 

It also had to be designed to be extremely secure so that the scoring information could not be intercepted or tampered with. It isn't hard to imagine someone wanting to tamper with the scores using their own modified transmitter so we use military spec (AES) encryption along with other techniques to ensure this cannot happen. All the security set up happens when the receiver is first connected to the Hogu through the use of a cable for registration _(we use a cable because there is no way to intercept that so it is completely secure, those guys in California are just paranoid but in a good way!)_

Lastly, the receiver has to work in every country so we had to use frequencies that we could license and have approved world wide which means we had to compromise on the power levels we are allowed to use. Because we can only use very low power levels similar to Bluetooth devices (and you have probably experienced they don't go very far) we had to make the radio device in the LaJust receiver VERY sensitive.

The receiver and the hogus are continuously communicating _(even when they are not in a match and just turned on)_ and should anything try to interfere with that communication the software will immediately stop the match. For this reason, there is no middle ground when it comes to scoring, _this design means it is virtually impossible by design for a valid hit not to be received._ It is also the reason we go through a LOT of triple-A batteries in the Hogus 

As you have probably experienced, if you put a cell phone up anywhere close to speakers you can see how those signals have an effect. The receiver is so sensitive that having wireless microphone transmitters, cellular phones (especially those with Bluetooth or WiFi turned on) close to the receiver will block the communication and the software will stop the match. We are very explicit in our manual and training that NO transmitters should be used within 6 foot of the operator table with the equipment.

In short, the communication "failure" is a design feature to ensure we have 100% secure and continuously monitored communications between the devices. If you don't see the failure notice, you can be assured that there is a 100% accurate and secure connection between the devices and the receiver. No scores will ever be "lost" in transmission.

Thanks for bearing with me in this long winded answer 

Jonathan


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## ATC (Apr 15, 2010)

LaJust said:


> That is a great question and to answer it properly I'm going to try and give you some understanding at a high level on our radio technology, so please bear with me
> 
> Our RF system is actually very complex. It has to be to allow hundreds of chest protectors and dozens of rings all turned on and communicating at the same time in a small area without degrading. This is something that just can't be achieved with consumer technologies like WiFi or Bluetooth so we designed our own proprietary system. We used the services of a company in California that designs communications systems for the tomahawk missile so they know what they are doing
> 
> ...


Thanks, that explains why there were a few stopped matches and the TA's at that table stated cell phones.


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## terryl965 (Apr 15, 2010)

LaJust can you please answer some of my question?

Thanks
Sincerly
Terry


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## LaJust (Apr 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> La Just let me ask you this can we get your real first name? I know it is small request but I am more at ease with a real name, second which sysytem will be at National in Orlando? Can you ever do anything about a straight forward kick, when will tey be able to be scored, you see now it needs to be like a scape and not a direct line to be scored? Last thing when has the back portion not been a scoring area? I was under the impression the back up to the spine is legal but yet no scensors to score these point, it leave alot of double and triple kicks not scoreable?
> 
> Once again thanks for coming on and answering all the question for us.:asian:



Hi. Unfortunately I don't have any committed dates for availability the new equipment with the upgraded sensors nor when we will have the version with the neutral color sensor pads. Once we actually have them in the US I'll be able to post details on the improvements we see and at what competition they will be used and if that has any effect on things like the push kick. The push kick has always been a contentious issue with judges long before electronic sensors were introduced, with judges who prefer not to score these because they are not in fact kicks but a push versus players and coaches who want to have them scored, and so what gets scored by judges at local and regional matches isn't always the same as judges at international events. In my opinion, _these are no win situations for any electronic sensor system_ and that is one reason the ring judges have their hand controllers to award points.

I think other people have covered the question on scoring areas and all I can do is point to the changes in the WTF rules along with their decision on the approved design of the Electronic Hogu target locations in my opinion speaks volumes to their intention whether we like it or not. The one constant in this sport like most others is change and I'm sure it won't be the last we see 

The sensors themselves in the Hogu are more than capable of scoring double and triple kicks in rapid succession -- in fact I test that by taking a rubber mallet covered with the sock sensor material and we attempt to hit them continuously faster than it can count but it never misses.

Thanks for the question.
Jonathan


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## Bones (May 10, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> I am very impressed that you came on this BBS. The Lajust system has taken a beating on this board.
> 
> My major complaint is that it is to thick and bulky. Takes the shock out of the game. The body shots don't hurt nearly as much as with other hogus and those who kick hard to the body don't get the impact. No shots to the backside is another issue! You have to change your game to fit the Hogu. The Hogu should have been designed to fit the game. The backside is a legal scoring area(why no sensors).
> 
> ...


 

Gorilla, what update do you have on Daedo and your comparison on Daedo v Lajust?


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## Gorilla (May 10, 2010)

Bones said:


> Gorilla, what update do you have on Daedo and your comparison on Daedo v Lajust?



Scoring on both are inconsistent...Daedo you can score to the backside and they are like regular Hogu's(they only weigh 8 ounces more)...you have more options with Daedo so overall I like that system the best.  But it is  head kickers game now and the lead leg  and the cut kick are very important...


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