# slashing knife attacks



## Blindside (Aug 23, 2006)

One of my complaints about the kenpo system is the apparently incomplete curricullum for knife defense.  The most glaring difference is the lack of official techniques against a slashing knife.  I have heard from several instructors that the defenses against this type of attack are contained within the club curricullum, though modified.  I would like to see examples of how the club techniques are modified against the different characteristics of the knife, particularly the ability for the attacker to shorten the arc of the attack.

Lamont


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> One of my complaints about the kenpo system is the apparently incomplete curricullum for knife defense. The most glaring difference is the lack of official techniques against a slashing knife. I have heard from several instructors that the defenses against this type of attack are contained within the club curricullum, though modified. I would like to see examples of how the club techniques are modified against the different characteristics of the knife, particularly the ability for the attacker to shorten the arc of the attack.
> 
> Lamont


 
The answer is as simple or complex as you would like it to be.  You can shorten the arc of any weapon as the weapon has to follow the path of travel of the arm holding it.  Consider this.  The BASICS effective strategy of disarming a weapon is as follows:

1) To divert from whatever path makes the weapon effective (example keeping the blade of a knife away from you, keeping a gun barrel pointed away from you, etc.)

2) Seize and control the weapon and/or limb holding the weapon depending on what the weapon is and how it's held (controlling a knife in reverse grip is different from regular grip)

3) Disarm the weapon

With this in mind 

A) place a knife in the hand of the attacker and have them swing on any arc that the club techniques would be coming in on and practice the club technique but being mindful that the blade can still cut (mind you you should be worried about debilitating cuts, not minor cuts as it's a knife and a minor cut is acceptable to survival though not the desired outcome).

B) when the knife is in a reverse grip understand that that hand (the knife weilding hand) is now a "grabbing hand" that cannot be allowed to grab. Respond accordingly.

the answers to knife slashes are all over the place the different phases of the attack are covered in different places:

1) intial swing - club defenses, punch defenses

2) arm control - wrist grabs, hugs, and hand shake techniques

3) disarms - knife techniques, gun techniques, Form 6

The techniques are meant to teach concepts, ideas, principles and mechanics.  You can't have techniques to address every single attack, so you must learn to adapt the concepts to attacks you meet.

While were on the subject of Kenpo's alleged deficiences think about these.

1) where are the defenses against low kicks?

2) where are the defenses against shoots lower than the waist

3) where is the ground work?

4) where are the defenses for bear hugs with one arm free and one arm pinned?

5) Where are the defenses for chest to the wall instead of back to the wall?

6) Where are he defenses for kicks from the rear?

7) Where are the defenses for tackles from the rear?

8) Where are the techniques where we strike first?

9) Where are the defenses for Punch THEN kick?

10) Where are the clinch fighting tactics?

11) etc.

There are many attacks that aren't "official" addressed in the book.  So what are you waiting for? start training and thinking independantly, after all that's what Kenpo is suppossed to get you do...

salute.


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## HKphooey (Aug 23, 2006)

I will agree with ya on the slashing blade.  The club techniques can be slightly modified and may work, but I have found you have to be super quick and have good reactionary time to defend against a somewhat skilled knife wielder.  I also train in Arnis and other knife combat concepts and find that having the abilty to go into more of a "freestyle mode" helps me compensate for changes in the attack.  The Modern Arnis has greatly improved my kenpo.  It is one thing miscalculate a hand or foot strike, but the slightest change in the arc can be deadly.  

I try to keep all the basic principles in mind when defending a knife attack:

keep to the outside of the attacker
Keep (redirect) the blade away from vital organs/arteries
try to control the blade at its orgin or zenith point
disarm the the attacker when ever possible


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> I will agree with ya on the slashing blade. The club techniques can be slightly modified and may work, but I have found you have to be super quick and have good reactionary time to defend against a somewhat skilled knife wielder.


 
Yes, agreed, you do have to be able to read the attack to defend against it, that's true of any and every other attack however. If you don't recognize a punch coming you eat it, same as a knife.




			
				HKphooey said:
			
		

> I also train in Arnis and other knife combat concepts and find that having the abilty to go into more of a "freestyle mode" helps me compensate for changes in the attack. The Modern Arnis has greatly improved my kenpo. It is one thing miscalculate a hand or foot strike, but the slightest change in the arc can be deadly.



Yes you have to be able to move in a "freestyle mode". But again you have to be able to do that with any attack not just knife slashes. Yes the knife does remove some of the margin for error, that's why the guy with the weapon has the initial advantage. Agreed.





			
				HKphooey said:
			
		

> I try to keep all the basic principles in mind when defending a knife attack:


 
Yes principles are key, not just the order of the movements (which are only there to teach the principles anyway)


			
				HKphooey said:
			
		

> keep to the outside of the attacker
> *Keep (redirect) the blade away from vital organs/arteries*
> _try to control the blade at its orgin or zenith point_
> *disarm the the attacker when ever possible*


 
Postioning, *Divert*, _Seize, Control, _*Disarm* Sounds familiar to me....


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## HKphooey (Aug 23, 2006)

James great points in both posts...

There is a major difference between a knife and punch.  Misreading a punch means you eat a puch, misreading a knife means you eat a knife.  A knife is just as dangerous during the retraction as it was coming in - not sure if I would same the same for a punch.

But I hear wear you are coming from. 

Like you said, That is what kenpo is all about.


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 23, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> James great points in both posts...
> 
> There is a major difference between a knife and punch. Misreading a punch means you eat a puch, misreading a knife means you eat a knife. A knife is just as dangerous during the retraction as it was coming in - not sure if I would same the same for a punch.
> 
> ...


Good point but a minor correction. Knives are not just as dangerous during retraction unless their on your neck.  elsewhere retraction causes messy, bloody painful wounds that are unlikely to be dangerous.

Jeff


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Good point but a minor correction. Knives are not just as dangerous during retraction unless their on your neck. elsewhere retraction causes messy, bloody painful wounds that are unlikely to be dangerous.
> 
> Jeff


 
Whatever.....like a physician would know anything about this 

Could you provide some more info as to why a retracting cut on the arms is unlikely to be dangerous?


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## HKphooey (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Good point but a minor correction. Knives are not just as dangerous during retraction unless their on your neck. elsewhere retraction causes messy, bloody painful wounds that are unlikely to be dangerous.
> 
> Jeff


 
To me dangerous means getting hurt.  (did not use the term deadly)    I choose not to walk around with a limp or not have use of an arm because of tendon damage.  But that is just me.  

What about the femoral artery?  Not to mention the kidneys.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> To me dangerous means getting hurt. (did not use the term deadly)  I choose not to walk around with a limp or not have use of an arm because of tendon damage. But that is just me.
> 
> What about the femoral artery? Not to mention the kidneys.


 
At what point do you block a knife with your inner thigh for there to be a retraction near your femoral artery (by the way the femoral artery is by the femur hence very deep inside the leg if I remember correctly) ? 

Also you are aware that a cut to the femoral artery requires SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE and a VERY sharp blade to cut through that much tissue in one cut.  You'd have to be fighting someone with a medical scapel while providing no resistance to their cutting limb all the while presenting the target and pressing yourself against the blade to help them cut you.

People seem to think that a knife cuts through flesh and muscle so easily just by grazing by.  Having cut open cadavers and.....nevermind...having cut open a few cadavers i'll tell you it takes a DEEP cut to hit the areas you just mentioned as they are nowhere near the skin's surface.

Think about this...how much pressure did you use to cut through that last steak?  And how many passes did it take to get that done? Now triple the thickness of the steak and try it...that's trying to get to that femoral artery or kidney.

Being hurt and being dangerously hurt (to the point of being maimed, incapacitated, or killed) are too VERY different things.  If you blocked the knife hand in anyway and have contact with it, the targets you mentioned aren't getting cut anytime soon unless you aren't fighting back.  A stab however is a different story....

People worry about getting cut instead of worrying about getting cut BADLY.


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 23, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> To me dangerous means getting hurt. (did not use the term deadly)  I choose not to walk around with a limp or not have use of an arm because of tendon damage. But that is just me.
> 
> What about the femoral artery? Not to mention the kidneys.


the kidneys are deepl place behind ribs, near the spine and will not be cut by slicing withdrawal (perhaps with a katana, but not a knife.  The Femoral artery likewise is deep, armored from behind and not readily available to a slicing withdrawing knife. exstensor tendon injuries are possible but if you are holding your arms in close as would be a natural human tendancy they are also well protected from all but cleaving sword attacks on withdrawal. I agree that the knife will hurt but it is important to differentiate between deadly, disabling and merely painful. 

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> At what point do you block a knife with your inner thigh for there to be a retraction near your femoral artery (by the way the femoral artery is by the femur hence very deep inside the leg if I remember correctly) ?
> 
> Also you are aware that a cut to the femoral artery requires SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE and a VERY sharp blade to cut through that much tissue in one cut. You'd have to be fighting someone with a medical scapel while providing no resistance to their cutting limb all the while presenting the target and pressing yourself against the blade to help them cut you.
> 
> ...


Good point.

Jeff


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## HKphooey (Aug 23, 2006)

First question, (and I will clarify my statement, a retraction or opposite directional movement of the knife).  The initial strike is a slash gone wrong:

And upper cut knife strike to the groin.
A downward diagonal slash across the body, then coming back with the point of the blade to the inside of the thigh.
As for the steak analogy:

Most steak knives are serrated, hence the cut is more of a tear.
Take a knife with a good point, and stab it (as you stated is a different story).  Watch how easily you go through it.  The initial strike is a slash, but the retraction or backup is a poke/stab.
Many of my knives (and knives sold in camping stores come standard with a very sharp blade)
And let me rephrase, "In my opinion", walking with a limp, having serious tendon damage, lose of eyesight, etc.   That to me is bad, badly, dangerous, choose whatever word you like.  Remember as an instructor, the majority of my students are not looking to be the next Ed Parker or Grandmaster, they do not have the benefit of training for 30 years before they are attacked for the first time.

I have the benefit of physicians in the family.  I am always picking their brains on to what is feasible and what is not.

I will finish up by saying I see your side of it as a dedicated kenpo/martial artist.  As always I respect your opinion.  :asian:


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## HKphooey (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> the kidneys are deepl place behind ribs, near the spine and will not be cut by slicing withdrawal (perhaps with a katana, but not a knife. The Femoral artery likewise is deep, armored from behind and not readily available to a slicing withdrawing knife. exstensor tendon injuries are possible but if you are holding your arms in close as would be a natural human tendancy they are also well protected from all but cleaving sword attacks on withdrawal. I agree that the knife will hurt but it is important to differentiate between deadly, disabling and merely painful.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff


 
Sorry, to clarify again... the initial strike is a slash and if the technique does not work properly, the attacker as the benefit of coming back with a slash or a stab/poke.

Thanks for your input on the subject. :asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> the kidneys are deepl place behind ribs, near the spine and will not be cut by slicing withdrawal (perhaps with a katana, but not a knife. The Femoral artery likewise is deep, armored from behind and not readily available to a slicing withdrawing knife. exstensor tendon injuries are possible but if you are holding your arms in close as would be a natural human tendancy they are also well protected from all but cleaving sword attacks on withdrawal. I agree that the knife will hurt but it is important to differentiate between deadly, disabling and merely painful.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff


 
Guess we gotta add swords to the "categories to be completed" list now


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## HKphooey (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Guess we gotta add swords to the "categories to be completed" list now


 
Sure thing!


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## bujuts (Aug 23, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> keep to the outside of the attacker


 
As with the empty hands, there are no absolutes.  There are a number of reasons I'd want to be on the inside of the bladed arm.  Strategy should be paramount to technique.  If you are dealing with a right handed slash, and you have a second person at 9:00, the outside could be a bad place to be unless the first person is properly dealt with.



			
				HKphooey said:
			
		

> Keep (redirect) the blade away from vital organs/arteries


 
Keep it away from you period.  A cut is a cut.  Dominate the attack ASAP, it doesn't matter if its your neck vs. your belly.




			
				HKphooey said:
			
		

> Try to control the blade at its orgin or zenith point


 
Agreed, this is the ideal if you attack in time.  
 
 


			
				HKphooey said:
			
		

> disarm the the attacker when ever possible


 
Again, this is not an axiom to go by, but a matter of choice at the time of the engagement.  Disarming is a matter of restraint on based on your intent, which should be platformed on your pre-determined moral, ethical, and personal code.  Its a moral question, not a kenpo principle.  Personally, for a deadly threat, my own thoughts will be on killing, not on restraining, submitting, knocking out, or disarming, unless the circumstances warrant otherwise.  The old adage "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" applies - don't bring a fighting mentality (winning) to a killing scenario.

Great topic all.

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 23, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Whatever.....like a physician would know anything about this
> 
> Could you provide some more info as to why a retracting cut on the arms is unlikely to be dangerous?


Place your arm on your side and rub your hand across the exposed lateral surface.  The first thing you'll notice is that the skin moves with you making penetration more difficult.  Then notice that what you feel is skin slipping over bone.  This bone will limit knife slicing penetration.  The more important nerves and vessels are buried deeper in the tissues and unlikley to be reached with a back to front motion. I'm no expert on this but the only slicing death I've seen was to the throat.  The other knife deaths I've seen all involved stabbing.  This would be different if we were discussing swords which can cleave much more deeply.  Don't get me wrong, the arm slice will hurt badly but it will also make you slippery and a more difficult target.

Jeff


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## Blindside (Aug 24, 2006)

So lets talk about dealing with the initial swing, Mr. Hawkins points to punch defenses and club defenses for dealing with these.  

In particular lets take a look at the roundhouse swings.  The club defenses against these attacks take the centerline and Calming, Defying, and Securing the Storm all use left extended outward or handsword blocks to deal with the incoming weapon.  Is this acceptable or should another set of techniques be be adapted to deal with this situation?  If so which ones?

Lamont


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 24, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> So lets talk about dealing with the initial swing, Mr. Hawkins points to punch defenses and club defenses for dealing with these.
> 
> In particular lets take a look at the roundhouse swings. The club defenses against these attacks take the centerline and Calming, Defying, and Securing the Storm all use left extended outward or handsword blocks to deal with the incoming weapon. Is this acceptable or should another set of techniques be be adapted to deal with this situation? If so which ones?
> 
> Lamont


 
1) Calming is viable as in the event of a mistep the attacker has a long way to circle to get to the outside of your body.  and the intial shock hit curtails a re-assault

2) Defying is a better bet as two hands can ensnare the arm and the body is zoned off to minimize the effectiveness of the far hand.

3) Securing is liability as you give the attacker an easier line to go to the outside and behind you.

4) Returining is the best bet as it does not take the centerline but instead takes the outside.

5) Five swords is a good bet and easily modified.

7)Triggered Salute could be adapted easily (and is infact used as aknife defense by many self defense programs outside of Kenpo, it's also called Calming the Storm anyway)

8) Detour from Doom also works well against an arm/knife assault, of course it's just Calming the Storm with a kick first but you get the point by now.


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## Blindside (Aug 24, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> 1) Calming is viable as in the event of a mistep the attacker has a long way to circle to get to the outside of your body. and the intial shock hit curtails a re-assault
> 
> 2) Defying is a better bet as two hands can ensnare the arm and the body is zoned off to minimize the effectiveness of the far hand.
> 
> ...


 
My problem with the Calming/Defying/Securing group is that if the arc is shortened by the attacker it leaves the blocking arm open for a nasty full power slash.  In addition the angle of the extended outward block is not terrible effective at keeping the attacker from slipping under the gaurd and bringing their point online with the abdomen.

Returning is great and would be my preferred alternative, but if we must enter centerline I would prefer to deal with the initial slash with an inward block/deflection.  

Lamont


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## bujuts (Aug 25, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> In addition the angle of the extended outward block is not terrible effective at keeping the attacker from slipping under the gaurd and bringing their point online with the abdomen.
> Lamont



With a correctly done EOB, this shouldn't happen.  The EOB arms you with the bracing angle which you should be using to cancel his H, W, & D as you invade his spinal ring.  It depends on the footwork.

Your thoughts, gentlemen?

Steven Brown
UKF


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## MJS (Aug 25, 2006)

Great thread topic!!:ultracool   

I personally have never and hope to God that I am never on the receiving end of a live blade.  Now, I'm no physician, but I'd think that even a slash, is still going to have some effect on us.  I'm sure we've all received small cuts, and while they may not have the same effect as say a stab, I think the accumulation of slashes would add up.  

Seeing that we're comparing slash defense to club defense, I thought I'd post some club defenses, courtesy of KenpoTalk, so we could have something to refer to.

Defying The Storm: Rt  Step Thru Roundhouse Club

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with a right roundhouse club swing. 

2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute a left extended outward handsword to your attacker's wrist simultaneous with a right inward hand sword to your attacker's biceps. 

3. Grab your attacker's wrist with your left hand and your attacker's right elbow with your right arm. 

4. Step your right foot back to 6 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you utilize torque and opposing forces. (You will push the right wrist out and the pull on the left elbow to cause them to bend forward at the waist, possibly break their elbow joint.) 

5. Execute a right knee strike to your attacker's chest. 

6. As you land forward with your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow, execute a right inward overhead elbow onto your attacker's upper spine. 

7. Cross out.


Checking The Storm- Rt Overhead Club

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with an overhead club swing. 

2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock as you execute a right inward parry. Pull your left foot to your right into a cat stance as you execute a left extended outward open hand block to check against any possible roundhouse club return strike. 

3. Immediately execute a left front snap kick to your attacker's groin. Land towards 10 o'clock into a twist stance so your right foot is aligned for the next kick. 

4. Execute a right step-through knife edge kick to the inside of your attacker's right knee. (This should take them down.) 

5. Plant your right foot to 10 o'clock in a right neutral bow as you execute a right horizontal backfist to your attacker's face.

Calming The Storm: Rt Overhead Club

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with a right roundhouse club swing. 

2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow as you simultaneously execute a left extended outward block to the inside of your attacker's forearm and execute a right vertical punch to your attacker's head. 

3. Execute a right palm strike to your attacker's right shoulder and frictionally slide down your attacker's arm, checking it. As you finish the slide, ending at your attacker's forearm, shift into a right forward bow facing 12 o'clock as you take advantage of torque and execute a left vertical punch to your attacker's _solar plexus_. 

4. Shift back into a right neutral bow as you execute a right backfist to your attacker's right ribs. 

5. Cross out towards 7:30 taking the weapon with you.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 25, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> With a correctly done EOB, this shouldn't happen. The EOB arms you with the bracing angle which you should be using to cancel his H, W, & D as you invade his spinal ring. It depends on the footwork.
> 
> Your thoughts, gentlemen?
> 
> ...


 
My exact thoughts.  I tend to see many people extending an extended outward block WAY too far which 1) eliminates the bracing angle to absorb the impact and check the zones and 2) creates a complimentary angle to guide the weapon into the body, in particular the abdomen as was posted.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 25, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> My problem with the Calming/Defying/Securing group is that if the arc is shortened by the attacker it leaves the blocking arm open for a nasty full power slash. In addition the angle of the extended outward block is not terrible effective at keeping the attacker from slipping under the gaurd and bringing their point online with the abdomen.
> 
> Returning is great and would be my preferred alternative, but if we must enter centerline I would prefer to deal with the initial slash with an inward block/deflection.
> 
> Lamont


 
If the arc is shortened the blocking weapon is still open for a nasty slash.  However the inward motion leaves the inner wrist open which is a quicker way to never being able to close that hand again due to tendon and nerve damage on the inner arm.

Also you keep mentioning "if the attacker changes the arc, or the target, or the method of execution, etc." This is why being able to read an attack and awareness is so important.  It's not just with a knife it's with any attack.  My background began in TKD.  I've lost track of how many times I've started a front thrust kick at someone to have them attempt a kick defense (like Deflecting Hammer) only to change my mind and refire a rooundhouse kick to their face in mid-kick.  End result? a nasty full power kick to the head.  does that mean the block doesn't work.  No, it means the attack was changed and the person didn't read and respond well enough.

This topic is great, but the problem is that the premise falls more A) on reading the attack and selecting the proper counter than B) using the proper counter.

Changing an arc falls under feinting.  A proper feint changes everything, regardless of a knife being involved.

P.S. the angle you mention in the defying/securing/calming series is what I mentioned in securing, but it's not the same angle in calming or defying.  Also in Defying which block is the main one? the outward, the inward, or both? Food for thought....


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## Blindside (Aug 25, 2006)

> If the arc is shortened the blocking weapon is still open for a nasty slash. However the inward motion leaves the inner wrist open which is a quicker way to never being able to close that hand again due to tendon and nerve damage on the inner arm.


 
Actually, when I do an inward block for a knife I pronate my arm so that my inner arm is not easily available for that sort of attack.  



> This topic is great, but the problem is that the premise falls more A) on reading the attack and selecting the proper counter than B) using the proper counter.  Changing an arc falls under feinting. A proper feint changes everything, regardless of a knife being involved.


 
Agreed, but some counters leave you less open to feinting.  From your kick example, if the defender had left his hands high, and merely raised his knee to jam your kick they would be less vulnerable to your feint.  If there are options against the knife that are similarly less vulnerable it behooves us to find them.

Lamont


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 25, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Actually, when I do an inward block for a knife I pronate my arm so that my inner arm is not easily available for that sort of attack.


 
Biologically speaking pronating the arm in this fashion changes the muscle groups providing support to a substantially weaker configuration. Laymen's terms: weaker block. Fortunately it's only a light blow (generally speaking) from a slashing knife attack so this change remains effective to a degree.  It also depends on the grip as certain knife grips are used hoping that someone places their arm in the configuration you suggested so that they may hook, pull and disable the limb, or press and disable.





			
				blinside said:
			
		

> Agreed, but some counters leave you less open to feinting. From your kick example, if the defender had left his hands high, and merely raised his knee to jam your kick they would be less vulnerable to your feint. If there are options against the knife that are similarly less vulnerable it behooves us to find them.


 
Jamming the kick assumes that it's very close range, also it's alot harder to jam a thusting kick as opposed to a snaping kick due to the nature of load and chamber position.  Also you mentioned if the defender left the hands high which brings some problems into play.

 1) Hands left high while absorbing a thrust kick on one leg is a no no (in particular to the abdomen as in my initial example). The hands are in no position to provide support and standing on one leg while absorbing a direct linear attack provides no bracing angle to prevent knockback/knockdown.

2) If the hands are high then there is no reason to alter the target to a head shot.  The head is covered and is therefore not a viable target for that particular change up.

Counters leaving you "less open" to feinting depends on the nature of the intended attack as opposed to the counter.  For example if I intend to punch my oppnent and I feint a jab and he counters with a "philly shell" defense he is not likely to be open to my punch.  However if I intended to shoot and tackle and he defended the jab with a "philly shell" his hands are up and in no position to sprawl therefore clearing the path for my shoot, despite his counter.

There are far too many variables to be taken into consideration for any given scenario and if you change the attack then the defense must be changed accordingly.  That's why Kenpo techniques are taught in the 'ideal' phase against very specific attacks. When the attack changes the defense changes as well, but it is all based on the first of the three speeds...perceptual speed or reading attacks.


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 25, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Actually, when I do an inward block for a knife I pronate my arm so that my inner arm is not easily available for that sort of attack.
> Lamont


Pronate? Help me, if you sit at a table and place your arms in front of you, Palms down = pronate , palms up = supinate. Pronating on an inward block will dramatically reduce mobility and strength. over supination presents a different set of problems. 

Rules are meant to be broken but in general you want to keep the dorsal surface (Back) of your forearm on the side the knife can most easily cut you. I suspect that if you do knife techniques with your focus on not getting cut, you are doomed to failure. An attacker with a knife is out to kill you. There should be no ***** footing around. your initial move needs to both redirect the knife and disrupt the assailants alignment/balance. If you have successfully redirected the knife and you are now between the attacker and his knife (inside or outside the arm) your second move must be powerful and capable of disabling him or fully controlling the weapon. Don't worry about the minor injuy you might get as the knife is retracted, this is unlikely to kill you. You will be under full adrenalin/stress reaction and incapable of fine motor or fancy movements (unless extremely well trained) and unlikely even to feel the knife cut you. Render your attacker incapable of causing further harm as quickly and ruthlessly as possible then step back and assess the damage he has caused you.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Sigung86 (Aug 25, 2006)

I am kind of curious ... Of those discussing the knife attack/defense, how many have been attacked with a knife? %-}

I have a reason for asking that I will get back to after I have seen some answers.

Thanks,

Dan


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## Blindside (Aug 25, 2006)

I have not.... thankfully.

Lamont


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## Blindside (Aug 25, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Pronate? Help me, if you sit at a table and place your arms in front of you, Palms down = pronate , palms up = supinate. Pronating on an inward block will dramatically reduce mobility and strength. over supination presents a different set of problems.
> 
> Rules are meant to be broken but in general you want to keep the dorsal surface (Back) of your forearm on the side the knife can most easily cut you. I suspect that if you do knife techniques with your focus on not getting cut, you are doomed to failure. An attacker with a knife is out to kill you. There should be no ***** footing around. your initial move needs to both redirect the knife and disrupt the assailants alignment/balance. If you have successfully redirected the knife and you are now between the attacker and his knife (inside or outside the arm) your second move must be powerful and capable of disabling him or fully controlling the weapon. Don't worry about the minor injuy you might get as the knife is retracted, this is unlikely to kill you. You will be under full adrenalin/stress reaction and incapable of fine motor or fancy movements (unless extremely well trained) and unlikely even to feel the knife cut you. Render your attacker incapable of causing further harm as quickly and ruthlessly as possible then step back and assess the damage he has caused you.
> 
> ...


 
Hmm, I appear to have misused the term, I meant to rotate the hand inward.  As for the rest of your post, I agree completely, in fact your description of action would perfectly describe the training I have received in knife defense through Pekiti-Tirsia Kali.  What I have been trying to do is find how kenpoists attempt just your first step against a slashing attack:



> An attacker with a knife is out to kill you. There should be no ***** footing around. your initial move needs to both redirect the knife and disrupt the assailants alignment/balance.


 
From the conversation of the few people who have participated (thank you all) is that the extended outward block is considered an adequate initial defense (along with footwork) against this type of attack.  

Lamont


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 25, 2006)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> I am kind of curious ... Of those discussing the knife attack/defense, how many have been attacked with a knife? %-}
> 
> I have a reason for asking that I will get back to after I have seen some answers.
> 
> ...


 
Got one here 4 times, I'm two for four in that 2 I managed to defend and not get hurt and two I managed to get hurt, one slash and 1 stab.  Gotta love life in B-more  as if...


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## MJS (Aug 26, 2006)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> I am kind of curious ... Of those discussing the knife attack/defense, how many have been attacked with a knife? %-}
> 
> I have a reason for asking that I will get back to after I have seen some answers.
> 
> ...


 
Not yet and hopefully never.

Mike


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 26, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Place your arm on your side and rub your hand across the exposed lateral surface. The first thing you'll notice is that the skin moves with you making penetration more difficult. Then notice that what you feel is skin slipping over bone. This bone will limit knife slicing penetration. The more important nerves and vessels are buried deeper in the tissues and unlikley to be reached with a back to front motion. I'm no expert on this but the only slicing death I've seen was to the throat. The other knife deaths I've seen all involved stabbing. This would be different if we were discussing swords which can cleave much more deeply. Don't get me wrong, the arm slice will hurt badly but it will also make you slippery and a more difficult target.
> 
> Jeff



That also depends on where and how the attacker strikes. a slash to the wrist or the pit of the elbow will not only hurt, it will disable the arm. While the attacker will still have 5 weapons, you will have only three now. And unless you have incredible mental strength, your first instinct will be to grab the injured arm, giving him a chance to either slash to the throat, stab to the genitals, ot take out another arm. 

Leg slashes can be more disabling than people seem to think. a good knife in skilled hands can cut through clothes, skin, and tendons in one motion. This is even more the case with those new box cutters designed like tactical folders. Now you're dealing with a razorblade. It won't cut deep, but it doesn't need to to find a tendon

Many knife fighters try to disable opponents before attempting to kill them. It won't necessarily be through stabbing. It can just as easily be on someone trying to disable him, which he then grabs, locks up, and THEN employs the knife.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 26, 2006)

Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> That also depends on where and how the attacker strikes. a slash to the wrist or the pit of the elbow will not only hurt, it will disable the arm. While the attacker will still have 5 weapons, you will have only three now. And unless you have incredible mental strength, your first instinct will be to grab the injured arm, giving him a chance to either slash to the throat, stab to the genitals, ot take out another arm.
> 
> Leg slashes can be more disabling than people seem to think. a good knife in skilled hands can cut through clothes, skin, and tendons in one motion. This is even more the case with those new box cutters designed like tactical folders. Now you're dealing with a razorblade. It won't cut deep, but it doesn't need to to find a tendon
> 
> Many knife fighters try to disable opponents before attempting to kill them. It won't necessarily be through stabbing. It can just as easily be on someone trying to disable him, which he then grabs, locks up, and THEN employs the knife.


 
Glad to see you join the discussion!  A *good knife* yes as was posted earlier, but too a degree.  Cutting through tendon even with a razor blade is much HARDER than people think.  Also the human anatomy is curiously designed in that the easiest ways to disable someone are the hardest to access, with the exception being the neck where safety design is sacrificed for necessary mobility.

I'm not aware of your background so I'll not assume.  But I'm seeing a trend of these "hollywood" mentalities that a knife just slashes the body and disables the limb and that when hurt people instantly grab what was hurt.  Both are fallacies I'm afraid.  Knife slashes are hard to disable with unless the target is immobilized first (hense why filipino systems tend to "knife grapple" when disabling targets.)  One tendon being cut won't disable a limb, you have to cut several of them.  Also adrenaline dump often prevents people from registering wounds (unless they SEE it occur) until after the confrontation is over.  Feeling is one of the senses that the body naturally dulls in a high stress eno****er.  Hearing, Taste and Smell go as well but that's another discussion (tunnel vision for those interested in researching this phenomenon).

I've unfortunately been on the "business end" of two blades and have cut open a few cadavers and...anyway.  From my experience of cutting and being cut alot of the "theories" of how dangerous some slashes are are way off.  Also some of the theories of how safe some areas are are way off too.

I've only done private security and bouncing work, but the law enforcement guys can chare some stories as well.  Short version: I've watched guys get slashed, stabbed, shot and have limbs broken in violent encounters.  Most of them didn't notice until they A) lost a lot of blood B) tried to use the broken limb and it didn't function properly or C) calmed down.  So much for this theory of people "grabbing what hurts" that I hear all of the time.  In my experiences that has not been the case but so many martial arts schools teach people this.


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## HKphooey (Aug 26, 2006)

once again, I am not concerned with the initial slash, I am concerned with the missed block attempt and the stab that may follow the failed attempt.


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## MJS (Aug 28, 2006)

Came across a few interesting things I thought I'd share for discussion.



> http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html
> 
> 
> *Lie #10 Grappling with a knife*
> Oh yeah, remember how I said bio-mechanical cutting did have validity to it about the damage a knife can cause? What makes you think you can keep on fighting with that kind of damage being done to you? All a guy has to do is cut you a few times to seriously reduce your ability to move and then wait while you bleed out. Now the really bad news, being pumped up on adrenalin is going to make that happen faster, the higher your heart rate, the faster you bleed out and lose strength. All he has to do is out wait for your strength to fail before finishing the job.


 
Speaking for myself only here, I don't want to assume that the adrenal dump is going to keep me going. Chances are, unless its a surprise attack, such as you'd see in prison shankings, we're going to see that cut.

I think its safe to say that the majority of us have gone through a number of knife scenarios. While some may not have faced a real attack, I would hope that during our training, we gear our 'attacks' to be as real as possible, so as to create that proper mindset. 

I also realize that we always hear the first thing we should do is run. While I agree with getting out of the situation, we may not be able to, so the next best thing would be to get something to use as an equalizer. If I can pick up a chair or anything else in the area, and use it to aid in my defense, I'm going to do it. If all else fails, I want to control that weapon hand. A disarm can come after, if possible, but I want control of that arm. 

Just my .02

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 28, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Came across a few interesting things I thought I'd share for discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Agreed here control the weapon by all means, the debate is on how serious of a cut/stab we're talking about and where it is.  While I don't advocate assuming that every cut will be minor in nature I also know that not every cut and every target will have you bleeding to death if your stabbed or cut.  Give the weapon respect, but don't go over board where you're defending butterknife cuts to back of your forearm as though they're going to kill you in 30 seconds from one slash.  Some people take it that far and are training to fail because of it.

Short version: In a knife fight prepare for the high probability of being cut and prevent those cuts from being serious in nature and target.  The term "acceptable losses" comes to mind, and few want to accept that they stand a high chance of getting one if not several times.

Check out knife lie #14 on that page to understand exactly what I mean.  I couldn't put it in better words than that.  Lie #17 also fits my line of thought having unfortunately "been there done that" (and not trying to ever do it again!)


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## Sigung86 (Aug 28, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Agreed here control the weapon by all means, the debate is on how serious of a cut/stab we're talking about and where it is. While I don't advocate assuming that every cut will be minor in nature I also know that not every cut and every target will have you bleeding to death if your stabbed or cut. Give the weapon respect, but don't go over board where you're defending butterknife cuts to back of your forearm as though they're going to kill you in 30 seconds from one slash. Some people take it that far and are training to fail because of it.
> 
> Short version: In a knife fight prepare for the high probability of being cut and prevent those cuts from being serious in nature and target. The term "acceptable losses" comes to mind, and few want to accept that they stand a high chance of getting one if not several times.
> 
> Check out knife lie #14 on that page to understand exactly what I mean. I couldn't put it in better words than that. Lie #17 also fits my line of thought having unfortunately "been there done that" (and not trying to ever do it again!)


 
Dang James!

Teach me to take the weekend off.  This kind of information was where I was heading with my initial question about who has/has not been in a real knife altercation.

It is truly surprising what can and can not be done in the reality of the fight versus the "mats" version of knife defense 1, 2, 3, etc.

I will say that when a trained in and ingrained technique that worked 999 times goes awry on number 1000, and it's for real, the pucker factor goes up dramatically.  :rofl:


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Agreed here control the weapon by all means, the debate is on how serious of a cut/stab we're talking about and where it is. While I don't advocate assuming that every cut will be minor in nature I also know that not every cut and every target will have you bleeding to death if your stabbed or cut. Give the weapon respect, but don't go over board where you're defending butterknife cuts to back of your forearm as though they're going to kill you in 30 seconds from one slash. Some people take it that far and are training to fail because of it.
> 
> Short version: In a knife fight prepare for the high probability of being cut and prevent those cuts from being serious in nature and target. The term "acceptable losses" comes to mind, and few want to accept that they stand a high chance of getting one if not several times.
> 
> Check out knife lie #14 on that page to understand exactly what I mean. I couldn't put it in better words than that. Lie #17 also fits my line of thought having unfortunately "been there done that" (and not trying to ever do it again!)


 
Great points James!  I think for the most part, we're on the same page, but perhaps there is some confusion in the wording.  We all know how easy it is to get confused on these forums. LOL!  

I certainly realize that getting cut is going to happen.  Any confrontation is going to be unpredictable, so that being said, we just need to do the best we can, and hope for the best.  

Looking over some of the latest threads on the knife over on KT, I see a mixed bag of posts, with some saying the techs. will work and some saying they wont.  Interesting reading to say the least.  

While some, myself included, have not faced a real blade, I'm sure that there are many of us out there that have not faced a good portion of the attacks that we see in Kenpo.  I doubt that everyone here has been on the receiving end of a loaded gun, but we still teach techs. to defend the gun and all we can do is hope that our training brings us out on top. 

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2006)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> I am kind of curious ... Of those discussing the knife attack/defense, how many have been attacked with a knife? %-}
> 
> I have a reason for asking that I will get back to after I have seen some answers.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Dan,

Out of curiosity, since you posted this question, I'd be interested in hearing your answer to this question.  Its always nice to get feedback from people that have experienced something first hand.

Thanks,

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 29, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Great points James! I think for the most part, we're on the same page, but perhaps there is some confusion in the wording. We all know how easy it is to get confused on these forums. LOL!
> 
> I certainly realize that getting cut is going to happen. Any confrontation is going to be unpredictable, so that being said, we just need to do the best we can, and hope for the best.
> 
> ...


 
Some of the stuff in techniques (particularly the form version) has to be there to make people think.  Example. In Entwined Lance we pivot into a twist stance as the knife is coming in........anybody want to try that twist with a live blade?  I guarantee that the loss of lateral movement will be more than detrimental.  Alot of the techniques are taught the same way they are done in the forms but they aren't meant to be that way.  There are some inconsistences and tactical errors present if you do them that way.  but some people would rather do what they were told rather than apply.....what's that thing called...ummmm...oh yeah COMMON SENSE LOL.


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## Sigung86 (Aug 29, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Hi Dan,
> 
> Out of curiosity, since you posted this question, I'd be interested in hearing your answer to this question. Its always nice to get feedback from people that have experienced something first hand.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Mike,

Sorry to be so late getting back to you.  It's been a truly long day.  Several times successfully, and once not so successfully.

The reason I was asking is that, regardless of practice, time spent on the mats, etc. etc.  Regardless of your level of proficiency in the techniques that you have been taught, there is a definite psychological difference when you are faced with the "Cold Steel".

I hate to sound like an elitist, and probably will take heat for this from someone, but I think I would rather take the opinion of someone who has, actually, been there and rode the tiger rather than someone who has tons and scads of book-learnin'.  I mean that, in no way, as an insult to anyone.  However, it is a far cry to face possible death in the reality than in the academic.

BTW... The one time I wasn't successful was in 1993.  One of my own students got me, basically through my own inattention to detail and familiarity breeding contempt, as it were.

Here, in Missouri, in 93, we had some horrible floods down around St. Louis and the surrounding counties.  We, my students and I, went to a place called Marthasville.  We were putting on a demonstration at the local civic center, the proceeds of which were going to the flood relief effort.  We pretty well packed the house.

We were doing a particular knife defense that my senior Black and I had done a thousand times.  This time, however, the only knife that we had thought to bring was a Hibben Rambo III... A big sucker with a reeeaaallly sharp blade.  We didn't bother to practice, or scope the environment very well.  We were, in fact, doing the demonstration in a wrestling ring and they are excessively springy for all the high throws, etc that are done.

My student charged at me ... I did the defense ... We both bounced n the middle of the ring, simultaneously ... My hand was in position to catch the wrist ... We came down on the flooring ... He was considerably heavier than I ... He bounced a bit higher, and came down a bit slower ... He cut off the distal 3rd of my right social finger (middle finger :ultracool  ).  My wife, then girlfriend said later, I knew something was wrong, because it went into live action speed.  I had, without realizing what was going on, gone into live mode.  Even with the finger cut off (along with some of the bone), I took my student down, disarmed him, and stopped the hammerfist to his heart, but just barely.  It went from a well oiled, very practiced defense technique, to a live fire reaction and I almost killed him.  As it was, I pulled up shy and didn't hit him full on.  However, as he laid there, and we commiserated over my lost finger, his eyes were very glazed, and he was having trouble making coherent conversation.  :rofl:

The only reason I really know so much detail is that I still have the video tape.  Joey, my wife, can't watch it.  I have only viewed it a few times, and then, I always scream...  Dammit Dan!!!! Don't dooo iiiitttt !!!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

My wife calls me chameleon, however.  Over the course of several months I regrew the part of the finger that was cut off and discarded at the emergency room.


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2006)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Hi Mike,
> 
> Sorry to be so late getting back to you. It's been a truly long day. Several times successfully, and once not so successfully.
> 
> ...


 
Dan,

Thanks for the reply! No offense taken with anything said either.  Yes, there certainly will be a difference between drilling and the real deal. Basically, short of taking a real knife and training our disarms, we can use a training blade and even if we put paint, lipstick, etc., on the edge to simulate the cut, we're in essence, not going to die if we make a mistake. I guess where I was going with this, was using the same concept Peyton Quinn uses with the adrenal stress conditioning. While his attackers are not going to kill the students, the idea is to put them into the mindframe that their life really is in danger. Yelling, pushing, swearing, etc., to hopefully trick the mind into thinking its a real attack. While I don't put anything on my training blade, my inst. is always doing his best to give me a live attack. Is it the same as a real blade? No, for the reasons I mentioned, but I guess its better than nothing.

BTW, sounds like that demo. turned out to be pretty intense!!

Thanks again for the reply!:ultracool 

Mike


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## bujuts (Aug 30, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Some of the stuff in techniques (particularly the form version) has to be there to make people think.  Example. In Entwined Lance we pivot into a twist stance as the knife is coming in........anybody want to try that twist with a live blade?  I guarantee that the loss of lateral movement will be more than detrimental. ...



That depends on how the twist stance is used.  Many use the twist stance as a maneuver of rotation alone.  Its a spinoff topic, but for a number of reasons I won't go into on this particular thread, I'd do so, but based on what I understand of the Twist Stance as taught to me.  But using the Twist Stance of so many EPAK'ers - with the center of mass behind the front foot or, worse, the rear knee into the front calf - then my answer would be unequivacably no.  Again, different thread, but for my twist stance my answer is "yes".  I'll do more than try it, I'll make it work, for contained with in it is the bread and butter of my kenpo.

Salute.

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 30, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> That depends on how the twist stance is used. Many use the twist stance as a maneuver of rotation alone. Its a spinoff topic, but for a number of reasons I won't go into on this particular thread, I'd do so, but based on what I understand of the Twist Stance as taught to me. But using the Twist Stance of so many EPAK'ers - with the center of mass behind the front foot or, worse, the rear knee into the front calf - then my answer would be unequivacably no. Again, different thread, but for my twist stance my answer is "yes". I'll do more than try it, I'll make it work, for contained with in it is the bread and butter of my kenpo.
> 
> Salute.
> 
> ...


 
Mr. Brown you continually amaze me with the frequency of which you hit the nail on the head with that Thundering Hammer. This is exactly what I was thinking about...


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## arnisador (Jul 22, 2008)

Kenpodoc said:


> The Femoral artery likewise is deep, armored from behind and not readily available to a slicing withdrawing knife.



I know of techniques to target the femoral artery on the way out from the FMAs and Indonesian MAs but to be frank I've always questioned their effectiveness. You'd need a big knife. The theory is to catch the artery between your knife being drawn and pressed on the one side and the femur on the other. Again, I am suspicious of the effectiveness of this approach (my art doesn't have it). A stab is a different matter (e.g, this famous case). 



Kenpodoc said:


> I'm no expert on this but the only slicing death I've seen was to the throat. The other knife deaths I've seen all involved stabbing. This would be different if we were discussing swords which can cleave much more deeply. Don't get me wrong, the arm slice will hurt badly but it will also make you slippery and a more difficult target.



It's true that you can survive a fair amount of slashing. You'll hear of someone being slashed 43 times and living but not of someone being stabbed 12 times and living. But I strongly disagree that the slash to the arm will "make you slippery and a more difficult target". The slash to the arm is all the distraction the knifer needs to get into a more deadly target. Work your way in: Hand, arm, body. Slash, slash, stab. This is a standard strategy. People begin by using the arms to shield the body. After a few cuts they subconsciously start using the body to protect the injured arms (or at least they drop the arms). For a knifer--and this includes street knifers, not just trained fighters (e.g., look at some Piper clips)--a distracting hit to the arm or leg is a very common "defang the snake" type of entry if the opponent is unarmed.

The comment about feinting is quite relevant here.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 19, 2008)

simplicity = survival 

*a knife is not a weapon nor a gun or impact object.... they are all tools.  

the body or person wielding the tool is the the weapon coupled with thier brain.... 
thier brain is what makes the knife or whatever tool, dangerous or deadly.
the body id the driving force.  

why concentrate on the knife.... why try to defend against it or disarm it when the knifes has no intent and infact inanimate without someone or something holding it....  

take out whats holding the knife not by punching or kicking or grappling but by injuring them with violence... you want spinal reflex....you need to always be causing effects in your attacker from the start.... not out of defense.... a knife defense is 12 slashes or superficial wounds to the limbs and a fatal would to the throat.... thats what defense will get you

rotation/penetration/injury  is all you need against any armed attacker multiple or singular


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## arnisador (Aug 19, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> *a knife is not a weapon



The law disagrees...and as a Filipino martial artist I can assure you that when I'm holding a knife, it's a weapon.

I'm not sure what people have against weapons, but you can bet the military isn't sending people to the desert with only "tools". Yes a knife is and can be a tool, but it can also be used to kill a person--that's a weapon.



> rotation/penetration/injury  is all you need against any armed attacker multiple or singular



Somehow I don't think it's quite that simple.


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## Skpotamus (Aug 20, 2008)

arnisador said:


> The law disagrees...and as a Filipino martial artist I can assure you that when I'm holding a knife, it's a weapon.
> 
> I'm not sure what people have against weapons, but you can bet the military isn't sending people to the desert with only "tools". Yes a knife is and can be a tool, but it can also be used to kill a person--that's a weapon.


 
Actually, the term "weapon" implies intent in a lot of cases.  Saying you used a "tool to defend yourself" vs a "weapon to defend yourself" can make a difference in how you're treated after a SD situation by police, prosecutors and lawyers.  A lot of legal issues that occur after you survive an assault can be affected simply by how you articulate your actions and the reasons why they were justified.  

Prime Example:  The ILEA changed the wording in their defensive tactics manuals and training from "shoulder pin neck restraint" to "shoulder pin restraint" (it's an arm triangle btw).  The reasoning was lawyers were using the "neck" portion of it to attack the restraint methods police were using on resisting subjects by saying that they were specifically targeting areas that could cause serious damage in cases it wasn't warranted.  The removal of the word neck got that argument put down.  

They also changed the wording in their manuals from lethal force to deadly force since Lethal force isn't listed in the Indiana Code anywhere.  A lawyer used it to attack the training credentials of an instructor for using the term lethal force.  

Kind of a silly nitpicky thing, but it can be a real issue nonetheless.  

I pasted the actual Indiana code below.  

*IC 35-41-1-8*
*"Deadly weapon" defined
* Sec. 8. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b), "deadly weapon" means the following:
        (1) A loaded or unloaded firearm.
        (2) A destructive device, weapon, device, taser (as defined in IC 35-47-8-3) or electronic stun weapon (as defined in IC 35-47-8-1), equipment, chemical substance, or other material that in the manner it is used, or could ordinarily be used, or is intended to be used, is readily capable of causing serious bodily injury.
        (3) An animal (as defined in IC 35-46-3-3) that is:
            (A) readily capable of causing serious bodily injury; and
            (B) used in the commission or attempted commission of a crime. 
        (4) A biological disease, virus, or organism that is capable of causing serious bodily injury.
    (b) The term does not include:
        (1) a taser (as defined in IC 35-47-8-3);
        (2) an electronic stun weapon (as defined in IC 35-47-8-1);
        (3) a chemical designed to temporarily incapacitate a person; or
        (4) another device designed to temporarily incapacitate a person;
if the device described in subdivisions (1) through (4) is used by a law enforcement officer who has been trained in the use of the device and who uses the device in accordance with the law enforcement officer's training and while lawfully engaged in the execution of official duties.
_As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.318-1985, SEC.1; P.L.140-1994, SEC.4; P.L.156-2001, SEC.8; P.L.123-2002, SEC.33; P.L.143-2006, SEC.1._

That being said, it can also be a good thing to help students get into the mindset that they can use _anything _to defend themselves, whether it's a knife, gun, pepper spray, roll of quarters, magazine, pop bottle, etc.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 20, 2008)

a knife is a cutting tool with various uses other than killing people... 
it becomes a weapon when the intent driving behind it is violence...even still, without that driving factor(human brain) it is in and of itself simply a cutting tool.... 
putting a knife in your trained hand doesnt make you more of anything, it only affords you the opportunity to penetrate deep into flesh in a way that ones body weapons cannot.... or to cause effect in another human that striking with the body cannot...you should be just as effective in inflicting injury with only your body.... 

if you are caught  empty handed against the knife, assume he knows what you know.... you need to get in there and injure him.... you may get cut and you may see some blood but injuring him first is the ultimate goal... a slash is not an injury... a severed artery is.... it is your responsibility to protect and preserve your personal space... people who have a blade all have tell tell signs and most of the population is right handed and carries thier knife in common places.... 
if you are being stabbed then you are in trouble and its your fault... even still, injuring the opponent is the ultimate goal and only assurance you leave and they dont....     blocking and parrying and technique after technique are what is complicated...thats what will complicate the situation.... what if he is bigger and stronger....a 150 lb man cannot block a thrust from a 300 lb man eager to see meat and blood... he can only injure him repeatedly to stop the intent behind the tool which is the real weapon... his brain and central nervous system.....     stop that and there is no knife.... violence is not complicated... trying to socialize with a psycho is complicated and that is exactly what you are doing if you try to duel, defend or disarm.....


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## BLACK LION (Aug 20, 2008)

rotation=circular or circle-like motion through oposition  (cause)
penetration= moving through opposition (cause)
  injury= effect on opposition  

you have to have both to get an injury  

rotate body through to  strike/break/move
penetrate body through to strike/ break/ move  
injury is the result of these

always moving forward until the entire threat is neutralized 

its pretty simply... no dancing or deuling ....get the job done so you can go home


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## HKphooey (Aug 21, 2008)

A broken bottle could be a slashing weapon.


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