# Any pointers, kata?



## TSDTexan (Feb 21, 2017)

Last week I started working on a new kata (new to me anyways).
Gekisai Dai Ichi.

I want to ask for pointers and advice about this kata, and any insights.

Our tradition's version not exactly the same as the Goju-ryu one I have seen.

Thank you, for any on point responses.


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## Headhunter (Feb 21, 2017)

Ask your instructor listening to other people's advice may not help in the slightest as every place does it different


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## TSDTexan (Feb 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Ask your instructor listening to other people's advice may not help in the slightest as every place does it different



Thank you for your input.
I am still wanting to hear perspectives from people about this kata.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 21, 2017)

Before you do or learn the kata, do all of the potential armed and unarmed applications that are found, then do the kata and "relive" the applications as you do it.

What is kata without applications, after all?


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## Sojobo (Feb 22, 2017)

Is there any point learning the kata in this case?


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## MI_martialist (Feb 22, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> Is there any point learning the kata in this case?




In what case?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 22, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> Is there any point learning the kata in this case?


It can be a useful way to practice the movements and tune them, without the interference of a partner who doesn't feed properly for the given technique. In other words, if they do it wrong in a kata, it can only be because they did it wrong, not because their partner's response should have led to a different technique.


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## Sojobo (Feb 22, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> What is kata without applications, after all?



That depends what you are trying to get from the kata.

Not all kata are designed to have a directly applicable or interpreted output (in terms of combative techniques/strategies). Some are practiced primarily to develop internal strength, balance and other fundamental attributes that can then be utilised in the wider curriculum of the school / system. 

In this case, learning a kata for its movements sake - is more important than understanding the potential uses of the techniques / movement being performed.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 22, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> That depends what you are trying to get from the kata.
> 
> Not all kata are designed to have a directly applicable or interpreted output (in terms of combative techniques/strategies). Some are practiced primarily to develop internal strength, balance and other fundamental attributes that can then be utilised in the wider curriculum of the school / system.
> 
> In this case, learning a kata for its movements sake - is more important than understanding the potential uses of the techniques / movement being performed.



What is the outcome of internal strength, balance, and other fundamentals?  Proper technique and applications...


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## Sojobo (Feb 22, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> What is the outcome of internal strength, balance, and other fundamentals?  Proper technique and applications...



Correct, but...



MI_martialist said:


> Before you do or learn the kata, do all of the potential armed and unarmed applications that are found



No.

IMO, you learn and practice the solo kata first in order to inculcate the fundamentals.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 22, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> IMO, you learn and practice the solo kata first in order to inculcate the fundamentals.



That depends upon the purpose of the kata. None of the long-form kata I teach are intended to teach someone the techniques. They are only received after the student knows the technique and has met some minimal competency.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 22, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> Correct, but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As you said it is your opinion.  Did kata develop themselves before or after the function was developed?


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## TSDTexan (Feb 22, 2017)

This is some bunkai for this kata.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 22, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> This is some bunkai for this kata.



So what is bunkai?


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## TSDTexan (Feb 23, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> So what is bunkai?



Short answer:
A means to an end.

Longer answer:

A loose definition of the word. "Breakdown" a better definition would be "disassembly".

It's one part of a means to finding a meaningful understanding of kata, the other part is analysis (bunseki).

Add the two together and you get applications (oyo)

Generically, a lot of people call the whole process bunkai. But that's not accurate.

There are a few methods of doing bunkai.

Omote (what you see, is the meaning)
The block is, in fact, a block and not something else

Ura (the meaning is buried or hidden)
You have to decipher what is really going on in the sequence of actions, and it's not the obvious, or surface thing you see.

There is a method called Honto Bunkai well.

This is something that is earned by loyalty and paying one's dues and its the closed door disciple who is told the real deal meaning of a sequence of actions within in the kata, by the headmaster.

Odds are most people won't be doing the third method.


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## Sojobo (Feb 23, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Did kata develop themselves before or after the function was developed?


That depends on your understanding of function.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> That depends on your understanding of function.


Not really. It depends upon whether it was developed before or after the function. It's a timeline question, not a question of understanding. Kata didn't spring up unbidden, and then we have to find their purpose (function). Some instructor created them for a specific purpose.


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## Sojobo (Feb 23, 2017)

The original viewpoint I was attempting to offer was that irrespective of how and when _some _kata came into existence, their usage (in terms of how they are applied within the greater curriculum of the style) have evolved over time - and vary according to style.

In Wado- ryu for example - the practice of solo kata like Naihanchi and Seishan is primarily intended to develop attributes of internal strength, form and balance - which are then applied to the techniques and stratagems within the paired kata of the system (Kihon Kumite, Kumite Gata, Idori etc. etc.)

This may be a bit of an unusual approach compared to Okinawan based karate systems, but it is fairly ubiquitous within koryu-bujutsu systems.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not really. It depends upon whether it was developed before or after the function. It's a timeline question, not a question of understanding. Kata didn't spring up unbidden, and then we have to find their purpose (function). Some instructor created them for a specific purpose.



Yes, thank you!  Every pose, posture of a kata has martial application.  Whether or not one understands them is a different story.  A kata may be practiced for a different reason, but that does not make the reason valid, or martial.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 23, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> The original viewpoint I was attempting to offer was that irrespective of how and when _some _kata came into existence, their usage (in terms of how they are applied within the greater curriculum of the style) have evolved over time - and vary according to style.
> 
> In Wado- ryu for example - the practice of solo kata like Naihanchi and Seishan is primarily intended to develop attributes of internal strength, form and balance - which are then applied to the techniques and stratagems within the paired kata of the system (Kihon Kumite, Kumite Gata, Idori etc. etc.)
> 
> This may be a bit of an unusual approach compared to Okinawan based karate systems, but it is fairly ubiquitous within koryu-bujutsu systems.




Hello...are you comparing your training in Wado-ryu to Koryu bujutsu?  I really do not understand what you are saying here.  Solo kata must be and are based on martial application.  Why move the way you do?  Why strike the posture you do?  Why execute the technique (note that the real technique is NOT the technique you THINK you are doing) you are executing?  if not for martial reason, is it not simply an empty dance?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Yes, thank you!  Every pose, posture of a kata has martial application.  Whether or not one understands them is a different story.  A kata may be practiced for a different reason, but that does not make the reason valid, or martial.


Well, that depends how you define "martial application". Some of the movements in my kata are there simply to challenge balance and smooth movement. Some are there to keep the kata more contained (in a physical space).


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## MI_martialist (Feb 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Well, that depends how you define "martial application". Some of the movements in my kata are there simply to challenge balance and smooth movement. Some are there to keep the kata more contained (in a physical space).



This could be a couple of things.  First, if there is movement simply to have movement, it is a total and complete waste of martial training time.  More probably, the martial application is there, but you do not think of it as martial application.  Challenge balance and smooth movement...stability and mobility, shifting, are all vital to fighting, are they not?  As for space management, well...one can argue prevision of movement as one polishes application, or close quarter fighting, but you would have to drill those things.  If it is truly only to save space, then you should rethink what it is you do in the kata.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> This could be a couple of things.  First, if there is movement simply to have movement, it is a total and complete waste of martial training time.  More probably, the martial application is there, but you do not think of it as martial application.  Challenge balance and smooth movement...stability and mobility, shifting, are all vital to fighting, are they not?  As for space management, well...one can argue prevision of movement as one polishes application, or close quarter fighting, but you would have to drill those things.  If it is truly only to save space, then you should rethink what it is you do in the kata.


You're saying there are martial applications I built into the kata without knowing them? Doubtful.

And no, a lack of direct application is not wasted time. Movement that challenges balance and smooth movement forces the students to work on those fundamental parts of their structure. They'll probably never make that oddly deep off-side turn into the Elbow Chop in the 1st Application Kata, but their off-side turns into other techniques will be smoother and better balanced for having been forced to do it.

As for the saving of space, that's so they can do the kata in smaller spaces. I could have gone with an easier choice in 3 places, but the kata would take the whole dojo.


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## Sojobo (Feb 24, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Hello...are you comparing your training in Wado-ryu to Koryu bujutsu?



Shindo Yoshin-ryu have a set of exercises called 'Nairiki no Gyo'. These are solo forms that are designed develop and imbed core attributes such as balance, stability and correct muscular application. They are key to making the combative techniques / kata found within the greater curriculum of the system work!

Given that Hironori Otsuka was menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin-ryu (prior to setting foot in a Karate dojo), I don't think it is surprising that he adopted a similar pedagogical approach when developing Wado-ryu.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You're saying there are martial applications I built into the kata without knowing them? Doubtful.
> 
> And no, a lack of direct application is not wasted time. Movement that challenges balance and smooth movement forces the students to work on those fundamental parts of their structure. They'll probably never make that oddly deep off-side turn into the Elbow Chop in the 1st Application Kata, but their off-side turns into other techniques will be smoother and better balanced for having been forced to do it.
> 
> As for the saving of space, that's so they can do the kata in smaller spaces. I could have gone with an easier choice in 3 places, but the kata would take the whole dojo.




I am saying there is martial application but you do not see it as martial application.  On a  simple level, movements that challenge balance and smooth movement are fundamental to fighting, are they not?  Are not balance, shifting, and movement core to managing distance and timing needed to fight?  How is that not martial application?  Now, were I to see the actual movement, I am sure there are other "technique" type applications involved.

Saving space...managing distance, movement, etc.  These are martial strategies, are they not?


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## MI_martialist (Feb 25, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> Shindo Yoshin-ryu have a set of exercises called 'Nairiki no Gyo'. These are solo forms that are designed develop and imbed core attributes such as balance, stability and correct muscular application. They are key to making the combative techniques / kata found within the greater curriculum of the system work!
> 
> Given that Hironori Otsuka was menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin-ryu (prior to setting foot in a Karate dojo), I don't think it is surprising that he adopted a similar pedagogical approach when developing Wado-ryu.



"Core attributes"...hmm...like core fundamentals needed to fight?  Sounds martial to me...the problem is that people don't think basic enough.  Balance, stability, shifting, mobility...these sound like core fundamentals necessary for fighting...martial application.  So, these make the curriculum work?  Yes!  That sounds like martial application.

If the person was authentic Menkyo Kaiden, I would expect these to be not simply incorporated, but rather, part of everything that is done on the system.


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## Sojobo (Feb 26, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> "Core attributes"...hmm...like core fundamentals needed to fight?  Sounds martial to me...the problem is that people don't think basic enough.  Balance, stability, shifting, mobility...these sound like core fundamentals necessary for fighting...martial application.  So, these make the curriculum work?  Yes!  That sounds like martial application.



Unless I am missing something - this seems to be at odds with what you originally said...



MI_martialist said:


> Before you do or learn the kata, do all of the potential armed and unarmed applications that are found, then do the kata and "relive" the applications as you do it.
> 
> What is kata without applications, after all?



You seem to suggest here that prior to learning and practicing solo kata (in order to imbed fundamentals like balance, stability, shifting and mobility) - you should first be exposed to all probable applications that may arise from having inculcated said qualities?

What are "all of the potential armed and unarmed applications"? - I would argue that it is impossible to know and confining the practice of kata into 'probabilities' is flawed and goes against its raison d'être.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> I am saying there is martial application but you do not see it as martial application.  On a  simple level, movements that challenge balance and smooth movement are fundamental to fighting, are they not?  Are not balance, shifting, and movement core to managing distance and timing needed to fight?  How is that not martial application?  Now, were I to see the actual movement, I am sure there are other "technique" type applications involved.
> 
> Saving space...managing distance, movement, etc.  These are martial strategies, are they not?


Actually, that's why I said it depends upon how you define "martial applications". To me, since we are training for SD, everything that improves technique is geared toward application. Forms, like drills, sometimes have only indirect application, but there is always application.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 26, 2017)

Sojobo said:


> Unless I am missing something - this seems to be at odds with what you originally said...
> 
> Hmm...I said that martial application needs to be trained before solo kata...so, core fundamentals need to be trained an an application environment before they are taught as kata.  This way, the student know what the movements, poses, postures are of, and understands the application of them, thus making them meaningful, and not meaningless dance.
> 
> ...



I would argue that it is not possible to know them all, thus making it a lifelong pursuit to understand and do them all...I really do  not understand your point  of "confining the practice of kata into probabilities"...and goes against the raison d'être...what are you saying?


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## MI_martialist (Feb 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, that's why I said it depends upon how you define "martial applications". To me, since we are training for SD, everything that improves technique is geared toward application. Forms, like drills, sometimes have only indirect application, but there is always application.



They all have application...and if we don't train the application, the work on the form with a productive method (imagery in a kata for example), then what are we really doing?


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## Sojobo (Feb 26, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> I would argue that it is not possible to know them all, thus making it a lifelong pursuit to understand and do them all



I didn't suggest that - you did!



MI_martialist said:


> I really do  not understand your point  of "confining the practice of kata into probabilities"...and goes against the raison d'être...what are you saying?



I'm not sure I can explain it any clearer.

[edit] my issue not yours.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 26, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> They all have application...and if we don't train the application, the work on the form with a productive method (imagery in a kata for example), then what are we really doing?


I'm not sure I follow how that relates to my comment:


gpseymour said:


> Actually, that's why I said it depends upon how you define "martial applications". To me, since we are training for SD, everything that improves technique is geared toward application. Forms, like drills, sometimes have only indirect application, but there is always application.


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