# Things that are ridiculous in Martial Arts



## Bruce7 (Jul 25, 2019)

From Tiger Rock Newsletter
Big Congratulations to 
Miss Bissler 
on receiving official rank promotion to 5th Degree Black Belts at the World Championships in Orlando.

Tiger Rock is giving a *5th Degree *Black Belt to an *18 year old .*
If she were WTF or WTI she would be lucky to be a !st dan black belt given her skill level.
My definition of ridiculous.


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## jobo (Jul 25, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> From Tiger Rock Newsletter
> Big Congratulations to
> Miss Bissler
> on receiving official rank promotion to 5th Degree Black Belts at the World Championships in Orlando.
> ...


the whole black belt thing is ridiculous,i,  your going to tie black belt to actual ability, then they should be fought for and people should have them removed if their ability drops through age or lack of commitment. when you have geriatrics walking about with high grades then a fit 18 yo doesn't seem that out of character


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## skribs (Jul 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> the whole black belt thing is ridiculous,i,  your going to tie black belt to actual ability, then they should be fought for and people should have them removed if their ability drops through age or lack of commitment. when you have geriatrics walking about with high grades then a fit 18 yo doesn't seem that out of character



In TKD, people don't usually compete at higher belt levels.  At that point they're usually coaches and mentors.  They may have lost some speed and flexibility over time, but their knowledge has only increased, knowledge which they can pass down to future generations.  

One of my Dad's favorite quotes is "old age and treachery beats youth and enthusiasm".


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## jobo (Jul 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> In TKD, people don't usually compete at higher belt levels.  At that point they're usually coaches and mentors.  They may have lost some speed and flexibility over time, but their knowledge has only increased, knowledge which they can pass down to future generations.
> 
> One of my Dad's favorite quotes is "old age and treachery beats youth and enthusiasm".


there sa marked difference between knowledge and ability, my knowledge of soccer is immense, my abilities are declining with age. I don't turn up at soccer practise wearing my player of the season medle from 1978, coz they would laugh at the silly old man living on past glories

but the op point was that the young lady in question was lacking ability, ability in sport is measured by performance not knowledge, if your saying that an individual is undeserving coz they lack ability then the same can equally be said for any other person of any age or experience who is of a similar level of demonstrable ability

if your saying actual ability doesn't matter, then that applies equally to her


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## Bruce7 (Jul 25, 2019)

An 18 year old 5th dan makes a mockery of the whole belt system. Is she going to be a grandmaster before she is 30, come on.


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## jobo (Jul 25, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> An 18 year old 5th dan makes a mockery of the whole belt system. Is she going to be a grandmaster before she is 30, come on.


but the system is already a mockery


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## wab25 (Jul 25, 2019)

One of the ridiculous things I see in martial arts, is people getting all upset and concerned about what another organization and or school does with the things that hold their gis closed. If some other organization wants to have one of their people wear a white, red, purple, neon blue, camo, tan, transparent belt... so what? That does not effect me or my school or my training at all. If that other school wants a certain number of stripes or pins or patches or things on one side and not the other... again, that makes no difference to me or my school.

That other school can do what it wants. That school will be judged by what it does and it has to live with the representation it makes... or they go out of business. No matter how grand, how ethical, how traditional your school does it... it will not be impacted by the other school at all. And, both your school and their school will be judged by folks like jobo, who laughs at the silly colors and stripes either way. 

Teddy Atlas and Freddy Roach don't show up to the gym wearing belts, or badges... You can judge their skill as boxers by their records. You can judge their skill as trainers by their fighters. Again, that doesn't change how my school views belts and stripes and patches and such. 

So, they want to give that gal a 5th degree black belt and make her a grand master at age 21.... Good for her. Good for them. Would I go to train with her? Or attend a seminar she taught? I'd have to see her for myself, to judge whether I want to take that time. Her belt and number of stripes have little to do with whether I go learn from her. 

When I go to seminars, where there are multiple classes being taught. I don't go to the class with the highest ranked instructor. I go to the class that is teaching the thing I want to work on... or I go to the class taught by the person I think I can get the most from... Many times, the most valuable things I pick up, are from some of the lowest ranked instructors there.


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## Buka (Jul 25, 2019)

wab25 said:


> One of the ridiculous things I see in martial arts, is people getting all upset and concerned about what another organization and or school does with the things that hold their gis closed. If some other organization wants to have one of their people wear a white, red, purple, neon blue, camo, tan, transparent belt... so what? That does not effect me or my school or my training at all. If that other school wants a certain number of stripes or pins or patches or things on one side and not the other... again, that makes no difference to me or my school.
> 
> That other school can do what it wants. That school will be judged by what it does and it has to live with the representation it makes... or they go out of business. No matter how grand, how ethical, how traditional your school does it... it will not be impacted by the other school at all. And, both your school and their school will be judged by folks like jobo, who laughs at the silly colors and stripes either way.
> 
> ...



I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post. But, Teddy Atlas and Freddie Roache are far better trainers than they were boxers. And there ain't a damn thing wrong with that. 

I am a huge fan of both, knew Freddie when he was a kid, actually had a locker next to his and his brothers in the South Side Gym in Boston. And along with Commentator Max Kellerman, Atlas and Roache are the only three people in the media I will actually listen to about anything having to do with boxing or boxing history.

And, again, I agree with the spirit of your post. But the practice of giving out black belts to neophyte students, in my opinion, weakens the entire Martial community. It's like handing out college diplomas to children who walk by a college a few times with their moms. Eventually, all diplomas will be considered as the same thing - nothing.

Being an old fart, I remember when this practice started, and who started it. And it seems to be getting worse.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 25, 2019)

Hey, I was almost a Brown belt in Judo. Guy wanted me to teach Taiji at his Judo dojo, but he needed to cover me with his insurance. He could not do that unless I was a Brown belt or higher in Judo. So he was going to get me a brown belt, through his organization, in Judo...so I could teach taijiquan...... I declined...apparently this CMA guy, who trains in TCMA styles that do not have belt ranks, had more respect for the belt than he did


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2019)

wab25 said:


> One of the ridiculous things I see in martial arts, is people getting all upset and concerned about what another organization and or school does with the things that hold their gis closed. If some other organization wants to have one of their people wear a white, red, purple, neon blue, camo, tan, transparent belt... so what? That does not effect me or my school or my training at all. If that other school wants a certain number of stripes or pins or patches or things on one side and not the other... again, that makes no difference to me or my school.
> 
> That other school can do what it wants. That school will be judged by what it does and it has to live with the representation it makes... or they go out of business. No matter how grand, how ethical, how traditional your school does it... it will not be impacted by the other school at all. And, both your school and their school will be judged by folks like jobo, who laughs at the silly colors and stripes either way.
> 
> ...



Yes and no.

If you have greater standards and create better results you need to find a way to separate yourself from clubs and styles that don't.

And in a meaningful way.

So if you have a black belt and Gumby has a black belt you need something else as evidence of your method being viable.


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## Headhunter (Jul 25, 2019)

Of course it's a load of crap and everyone who genuinely does martial arts knows it. All it is is to promote themselves to the ignorant by going ooh hey look at our 18 year old 5th Dan. Frankly a lot of the higher black belts seem to be done for that very reason. An ego trip and makes you sound better when promoting your club


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 25, 2019)

Oh no it begins a new.   


But some places do have to award black belts to let people take higher up ranks in the orgnasation which do more management.  Kind of a sad state but thats just that.  

And arent there some which do some ranks as contribution to the arts so can mean anything?


Kind of wish they would reel back the sanctity of the higher belts and also train the lower belts pretty well.      

Oh no WTF/ITF might give a blackbelt to a 15 year old, they defo have  age requirement for the dans though which they dont meet to be 5th or at least a training timer.  or something,t hey wont throw a 5th around like nothing but they might a first.


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## Headhunter (Jul 25, 2019)

Buka said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post. But, Teddy Atlas and Freddie Roache are far better trainers than they were boxers. And there ain't a damn thing wrong with that.
> 
> I am a huge fan of both, knew Freddie when he was a kid, actually had a locker next to his and his brothers in the South Side Gym in Boston. And along with Commentator Max Kellerman, Atlas and Roache are the only three people in the media I will actually listen to about anything having to do with boxing or boxing history.
> 
> ...


Only thing I know about teddy atlas is he pulled a gun on Tyson once


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## Bruce7 (Jul 25, 2019)

wab25 said:


> One of the ridiculous things I see in martial arts, is people getting all upset and concerned about what another organization and or school does with the things that hold their gis closed. If some other organization wants to have one of their people wear a white, red, purple, neon blue, camo, tan, transparent belt... so what? That does not effect me or my school or my training at all. If that other school wants a certain number of stripes or pins or patches or things on one side and not the other... again, that makes no difference to me or my school.
> 
> That other school can do what it wants. That school will be judged by what it does and it has to live with the representation it makes... or they go out of business. No matter how grand, how ethical, how traditional your school does it... it will not be impacted by the other school at all. And, both your school and their school will be judged by folks like jobo, who laughs at the silly colors and stripes either way.
> 
> ...



Interesting post. So you find me ridiculous, ok, you might be right. 
What they do in the Tiger Rock TKD system does not affect me,  so why should I be concerned, good point.
What are the other things you find ridiculous in MA?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> From Tiger Rock Newsletter
> Big Congratulations to
> Miss Bissler
> on receiving official rank promotion to 5th Degree Black Belts at the World Championships in Orlando.
> ...


Any given rank only means what it means within a given group. You seem to have a problem with this specific group, but why does it matter to you?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> An 18 year old 5th dan makes a mockery of the whole belt system. Is she going to be a grandmaster before she is 30, come on.


Her promotion only really matters insofar as anyone pays attention to it. I can't see why it matters much outside the group of people she trains with. I don't know what their standards are for any given rank, so I don't know if there's anything odd about her promotion.

There is no single "belt system". Every group pretty much has their own, though there are some commonalities between some groups.


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## Buka (Jul 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Any given rank only means what it means within a given group. You seem to have a problem with this specific group, but why does it matter to you?



True. But the general public does not realize this. Heck, there’s thousands of Martial Artists that don’t realize this.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 25, 2019)

You know what's ridiculous? Getting all worked up about rank in a system that's not yours, and comparing it to WT rank. Which doesn't even exist.
Yeah. That's ridiculous.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 25, 2019)

Buka said:


> True. But the general public does not realize this. Heck, there’s thousands of Martial Artists that don’t realize this.


Yup. The amount of times someones overheard me talk about MA, then mention how their cousin or friend or nephew is a 3rd degree bb at 16, and ask me my rank, i know whats going through their heads when i tell them. And explaining that belts dont mean the same things is pointless, since it would just make me sound like im making excuses for being a 1st dan


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. The amount of times someones overheard me talk about MA, then mention how their cousin or friend or nephew is a 3rd degree bb at 16, and ask me my rank, i know whats going through their heads when i tell them. And explaining that belts dont mean the same things is pointless, since it would just make me sound like im making excuses for being a 1st dan


Yeah, it feels a lot like explaining to my grandmother that I don't repair computers for a living, just because I know more about them than most people.


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## Bruce7 (Jul 25, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You know what's ridiculous? Getting all worked up about rank in a system that's not yours, and comparing it to WT rank. Which doesn't even exist.
> Yeah. That's ridiculous.





Dirty Dog said:


> You know what's ridiculous? Getting all worked up about rank in a system that's not yours, and comparing it to WT rank. Which doesn't even exist.
> Yeah. That's ridiculous.


Good point, The WTF became WT in June 2017, thank you for the correction. 
Did the standards change when they change their name?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 25, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Good point, The WTF became WT in June 2017, thank you for the correction.
> Did the standards change when they change their name?



No, the standards remained exactly the same. Non-existent. Because the WT doesn't have rank.


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## Bruce7 (Jul 25, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, the standards remained exactly the same. Non-existent. Because the WT doesn't have rank.


Kukkiwon is the World Taekwondo Headquarters founded in 1972 in Seoul, South Korea.
It is the only taekwondo organization whose dan ranks are recognized by World Taekwondo Federation (WTF), sorry WT.
Thank you for your help, I was being lazy.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 25, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Kukkiwon is the World Taekwondo Headquarters founded in 1972 in Seoul, South Korea.



That what they call themselves. It's grandiose, but not exactly accurate since it gives the incorrect implication that there's only one world headquarters for taekwondo. In point of fact, there's one for every system.



> It is the only taekwondo organization whose dan ranks are recognized by World Taekwondo Federation (WTF), sorry WT.
> Thank you for your help, I was being lazy.



I do not believe this is true. As I recall, a few years ago an agreement was reached to recognize ITF rank as well.
And, in any case, since it's pretty well known that the Kukkiwon will issue equivalent rank to people from other systems, it's a pretty pointless distinction even if true.

18 year old KKW 4th Dans are specifically allowed, although I don't now how many there are. And given that the KKW promotion requirements allow time-in-grade requirements to be ignored under certain circumstances, an 18 year old KKW 5th Dan is also entirely possible. 

The same thing you're getting all knotted about. From the group you're holding up as an example of how it should be.

Yeah. That's ridiculous.


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## Buka (Jul 25, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. The amount of times someones overheard me talk about MA, then mention how their cousin or friend or nephew is a 3rd degree bb at 16, and ask me my rank, i know whats going through their heads when i tell them. And explaining that belts dont mean the same things is pointless, since it would just make me sound like im making excuses for being a 1st dan



If I find myself in this situation, I always softly smile and in a sweet voice tell them all about there cousin etc which usually has them interrupting and asking wide eyed “How did you know that?!?”
Sometimes I bewilder them more and sometimes speak even softer and almost make them cry.

Yes, I am incorrigible. Yes, I am an Ahole. And, yes, it’s getting worse.

What can I say? It’s a gift.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Any given rank only means what it means within a given group. You seem to have a problem with this specific group, but why does it matter to you?



Bjj and Judo are pretty much universal.


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## Bruce7 (Jul 25, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> That what they call themselves. It's grandiose, but not exactly accurate since it gives the incorrect implication that there's only one world headquarters for taekwondo. In point of fact, there's one for every system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the information. 
I believe you are correct, from what I have read the Kukkiwon does give black belts to other korean organizations, like the ITF
IMO, I don't think that they would give a black belt to an organization that requires a Black Belt to only learn one form.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> the whole black belt thing is ridiculous,i,  your going to tie black belt to actual ability, then they should be fought for and people should have them removed if their ability drops through age or lack of commitment. when you have geriatrics walking about with high grades then a fit 18 yo doesn't seem that out of character


You have no idea of what a black belt from a proper sensei means.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 25, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Thank you for the information.
> I believe you are correct, from what I have read the Kukkiwon does give black belts to other korean organizations, like the ITF
> IMO, I don't think that they would give a black belt to an organization that requires a Black Belt to only learn one form.



There has been more than one KKW Grandmaster on this forum who have said that, basically, they would sign off on an equivalent Dan rank for anyone with a Dan ranking in any other style of TKD.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Bjj and Judo are pretty much universal.


With Judo, there's mostly just the one organization. BJJ so far is an outlier. They've managed to keep standards pretty consistent (so far as I've seen, anyway) even though there's not just a single organizational body.


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## Bruce7 (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> There has been more than one KKW Grandmaster on this forum who have said that, basically, they would sign off on an equivalent Dan rank for anyone with a Dan ranking in any other style of TKD.



Thank you for the information.
A KKW Grandmaster puts an end to the question.
I am sorry, I misinterpreted the regulations from the Kukkiwon website.
Are there other things you think are ridiculous in MA?


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## wab25 (Jul 26, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Interesting post. So you find me ridiculous, ok, you might be right.


First off, I never said that I find you ridiculous. I found one thing you expressed to be ridiculous. I express things that are ridiculous all the time... see any of my posts. (there are a few members here who would gladly point you to some of my ridiculous posts) While I find that one thing you said ridiculous, I have found many other things that I either agree with or learn from in your other posts.



Bruce7 said:


> What are the other things you find ridiculous in MA?



*1. Useless name dropping.* I took a seminar once with a guy who was pretty good at his art. However, every time he went to a new technique or to make a new point about the one we were working on, he kept talking about how Bruce would do it, and what Bruce thought of things and how Bruce was when not in public, and generally made a point of chatting up how this Bruce guy was his good buddy. I went home and looked up this guy's training history... he never trained with Bruce, never lived anywhere near Bruce and would have been 7 or 8 years old when Bruce died. Sad part was that this guy's ability in his art and to teach... really didn't need the name dropping.

I just trained last night with a guy who dropped by the dojo on an open mat night. Since most of the senior instructor's were out, he wanted to teach a formal class and did so. After showing a technique, he started explaining how you really need to develop a certain flexibility... because when you train with Sensei X (very high ranked sensei in their art) you are required to have and use that flexibility all the time. Sensei X expects that and will tear you up if you don't have it. Except that I know for a fact, that the people on the mat, having trouble with his particular version of the technique he was teaching... could all do the version of that technique that they were taught... and that each one of them had more time training with Sensei X than the visiting sensei. This was again sad because, everyone just tuned him out... but his variation had some good things to it and was very useful.

*2. Holding on to old myths.* I still run into a disappointing number of instructors, who are great at their art and great instructors... but then throw out things like "punching the cartilage in the nose through the brain to kill." Or they talk about having "their hands registered as deadly weapons."

*3. Assuming your rank gives authority.* Now that I am a black belt I need to: assist the police, stop the bad guy, look for the bad guy, help people with their spirituality, be the moral and ethical compass of the community, have people visibly show their "respect" even outside the dojo... Your training gives you the same authority as a ballet dancer, swing dancer, weight lifter, jogger, guitar player... or couch potato. Just because you train punching and wrap a certain color thing around your waist, doesn't make you any more authority outside your school, than any other member of the community.


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## jobo (Jul 26, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> You have no idea of what a black belt from a proper sensei means.


well tell me, it's clear that some black bel awards are to very very capable individual, just as its equal clear that a good number are not, that then reenfforcrs my point that the system is flawed and the I'm a black belt statement is meaningless with out context of what dojo you trained at.

we are located near the university and as a result get a fair number of students who have earned there higher level.  belts elsewhere and come to train with us whilst they are away from home. some of these are talented and worthy of there belt others, the majority are border line useless and would only be an orange belt at best at out school.  inc it sinks in they are being out performed by yellow belts, they tend to not come back and presumably find somewhere else where they are not being humbled by " beginners" so they can keep their delusion of being skilled ma.

we had one guy, who had both a level of superiority and contempt he was being asked to drill with low belts, I threw an slow gentle lazy punch at him as part of a one step drill and he batted it away with great force and contempt at my weedy effort," like that is it I though, ", the next punch smash though his block and hit him in the shoulder, and he retired hurt went home never to return


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Thank you for the information.
> A KKW Grandmaster puts an end to the question.
> I am sorry, I misinterpreted the regulations from the Kukkiwon website.



Difference between theory and reality. 



> Are there other things you think are ridiculous in MA?



I'm more inclined to think people are ridiculous than generalities.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm more inclined to think people are ridiculous than generalities.



Well that was ridiculous 

Agreed by the way


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## Bruce7 (Jul 26, 2019)

As I and maybe others were confused by what you were trying to say, I found this article helpful.
Understanding Kukkiwon, WTF and ITF :: Taekwondo


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> As I and maybe others were confused by what you were trying to say, I found this article helpful.
> Understanding Kukkiwon, WTF and ITF :: Taekwondo



Yes. That says what I said, but in a lot more words.


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## Bruce7 (Jul 26, 2019)

wab25 said:


> First off, I never said that I find you ridiculous. I found one thing you expressed to be ridiculous. I express things that are ridiculous all the time... see any of my posts. (there are a few members here who would gladly point you to some of my ridiculous posts) While I find that one thing you said ridiculous, I have found many other things that I either agree with or learn from in your other posts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, excellent post.

It is ridiculous that I am a terrible student.When I quit MA,  I had study it for 12 years. Over 30 years later I have started training again. You would think I would be a good student, but I not. When I see something that I feel is counter product, I don't say anything, but you can see it in my face.

I now train by myself, videos are helpful to remembering forms. I don't have a gym to work out in and I miss helping fellow students if they are having trouble with a technique. I coached various sports off and on for 40 years so I have a very good understanding of body mechanic and training methods. Maybe when I find the right teacher I can empty my cup and become a good student.


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## Buka (Jul 26, 2019)

wab25 said:


> *2. Holding on to old myths.* I still run into a disappointing number of instructors, who are great at their art and great instructors... but then throw out things like "punching the cartilage in the nose through the brain to kill." Or they talk about having "their hands registered as deadly weapons."



For real? People actually say that stuff?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 26, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> I agree, excellent post.
> 
> It is ridiculous that I am a terrible student.When I quit MA,  I had study it for 12 years. Over 30 years later I have started training again. You would think I would be a good student, but I not. When I see something that I feel is counter product, I don't say anything, but you can see it in my face.
> 
> I now train by myself, videos are helpful to remembering forms. I don't have a gym to work out in and I miss helping fellow students if they are having trouble with a technique. I coached various sports off and on for 40 years so I have a very good understanding of body mechanic and training methods. Maybe when I find the right teacher I can empty my cup and become a good student.


From your postas, i dont think youre going to find that right achool in any sort of traditional school, unless you do something way off base from your original experience (kali, silat or bjj type stuff).

What might work for you is to continue doing your forms and training on your own, but find a good kickboxing gym that will allow you to train there and spar against others, if you want. You womt have to worry about your techniques, you can do what you know works, and if you need to you can change and learn from them-if what you're doing works fine you dont need to change it at all and can just keep sparring.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> For real? People actually say that stuff?


I heard the cartilage thing at least twice in my training. I've heard some other claims I'm pretty sure are just parroting of something they heard someone say somewhere, and have no idea if any of it is accurate.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> With Judo, there's mostly just the one organization. BJJ so far is an outlier. They've managed to keep standards pretty consistent (so far as I've seen, anyway) even though there's not just a single organizational body.



With BJJ probably because the belt is universal. 

You want to be an undeserved black belt fine but you will spend your life getting smashed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

drop bear said:


> With BJJ probably because the belt is universal.
> 
> You want to be an undeserved black belt fine but you will spend your life getting smashed.


Probably also because of the limited number of ranks, which makes it a bit less nuanced, especially at the "early" ranks.


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## wab25 (Jul 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> For real? People actually say that stuff?


Absolutely. I found one guy who framed the certificate he got from the police department when he registered his hands as deadly weapons... had it hanging on the wall for all to see when you walked in the door. (I only walked in that door once...)


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## Buka (Jul 26, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Absolutely. I found one guy who framed the certificate he got from the police department when he registered his hands as deadly weapons... had it hanging on the wall for all to see when you walked in the door. (I only walked in that door once...)



We should start selling those bad boys!


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## geezer (Jul 26, 2019)

Man, what a great way to raise money to support our LEOs! And why limit it to hands and feet? I’d like to register my dirty socks.


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## Buka (Jul 26, 2019)

geezer said:


> Man, what a great way to raise money to support our LEOs! And why limit it to hands and feet? I’d like to register my dirty socks.



I look at it this way, some of us are police, and everybody else knows somebody who's police.

So we're not conning anyone, they can register their hands with us. We can make a nifty certificate with Martial stuff on it, you know, dragons and cranes and fists and stuff. It could be epic. 

Of course I'd want to run ads in the back of comics like Count Dante did.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Absolutely. I found one guy who framed the certificate he got from the police department when he registered his hands as deadly weapons... had it hanging on the wall for all to see when you walked in the door. (I only walked in that door once...)



 I really want to get my hands registered as a leathal weapon.

Thinking like a firearms licence but for my fists.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I really want to get my hands registered as a leathal weapon.
> 
> Thinking like a firearms licence but for my fists.
> View attachment 22373


I want a fist-shaped wallet badge to go with the card.


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## dvcochran (Jul 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> but the system is already a mockery


What the OP is saying is that the age and rank do not match. 
Time to 1st Dan - 2-4 years
2nd Dan - 2-4 years
3rd Dan - 3-5 years
5th Dan 5-7 years
Minimum total - 12 years which would mean she would have to start at 6 years old. Doable but unlikely. She should be near the peak of her athletic abilities so your argument does not track.


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## jobo (Jul 26, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> What the OP is saying is that the age and rank do not match.
> Time to 1st Dan - 2-4 years
> 2nd Dan - 2-4 years
> 3rd Dan - 3-5 years
> ...


so are we saying she didn't start as a young child, or that's its unlikely she did
  there seem a lot of young children in ma, so I'm not sure why you think it unlikely


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 26, 2019)

Oh wah.  Give your snarglies a tug, boys, and grow up.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 26, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Of course it's a load of crap and everyone who genuinely does martial arts knows it. All it is is to promote themselves to the ignorant by going ooh hey look at our 18 year old 5th Dan. Frankly a lot of the higher black belts seem to be done for that very reason. An ego trip and makes you sound better when promoting your club


I own two clubs and do not promote for either. I have been in MA for 37 years and it has been a journey to get to the rank I am at. I have no problems wearing my belt. It has been for me and nobody else. Anyone who has put the time and effort in deserves whatever belt is rightfully due them. 
The boxers mentioned didn't get to where they are because it was given to them. As long as a person has earned it I have no problem. As @Buka said, there are too many in sports of all venues that get moved up for nefarious reasons. It is up to the rest of the community to not let that taint the whole.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> so are we saying she didn't start as a young child, or that's its unlikely she did
> there seem a lot of young children in ma, so I'm not sure why you think it unlikely


Starting as a child is common. Getting to 5th Dan at any age is uncommon.


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## jobo (Jul 26, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Starting as a child is common. Getting to 5th Dan at any age is uncommon.


well that's cause people quit or arnt very good or possibly both

but are we now saying she is uncommon or undeserving?


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> well that's cause people quit or arnt very good or possibly both
> 
> but are we now saying she is uncommon or undeserving?


I haven't met her so  I really can't say.


----------



## jobo (Jul 26, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I haven't met her so  I really can't say.


but you and lots of posters who haven't met her are saying quite a lot


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## dvcochran (Jul 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> but you and lots of posters who haven't met her are saying quite a lot


True. The evidence is compelling. It is quite outside the norm.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> but you and lots of posters who haven't met her are saying quite a lot


Few have said anything about her.


----------



## skribs (Jul 27, 2019)

drop bear said:


> With BJJ probably because the belt is universal.
> 
> You want to be an undeserved black belt fine but you will spend your life getting smashed.



But the same is true of KKW Taekwondo, and yet you have vastly different skillsets coming out of different schools.  Some are more traditional self-defense focused, some have excellent forms, some are championship-worthy sparrers, others have great demonstration teams.  Some have multiple or all of these things, and some are just rubbish.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> But the same is true of KKW Taekwondo, and yet you have vastly different skillsets coming out of different schools.  Some are more traditional self-defense focused, some have excellent forms, some are championship-worthy sparrers, others have great demonstration teams.  Some have multiple or all of these things, and some are just rubbish.


Do people go to different TKD schools challenging them if their black belts are undeserved?


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## Buka (Jul 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I haven't met her so  I really can't say.



I've met her a hundred times if you know what I mean.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 27, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> There has been more than one KKW Grandmaster on this forum who have said that, basically, they would sign off on an equivalent Dan rank for anyone with a Dan ranking in any other style of TKD.


You need to qualify that. If they are saying anyone walking in their dojang with a certificate from XXX will get a KKW certificate from day one, then yeah that is wrong. Any Grandmaster/Master/Instructor/Teacher worth their salt will want to spend time with the person in class and if possible do a background check, at the very least. Unless they are on the KKW Dan committee it is not their call anyway. They can only recommend a promotion to the committee.
Does hob-knobbing go? I don't know but I am certain it is no more than any other organization in any other style or sport. 
I tested for my 5th Dan KKW this year and I can assure you it isn't a cake walk. The girl test under ATA which I have no idea if it is more or less stringent. As I said earlier to @jobo she should be near the height of her physical abilities FWIW. Where she falls in with the rest of the traditional requirements is anybody's guess.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 27, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> I agree, excellent post.
> 
> It is ridiculous that I am a terrible student.When I quit MA,  I had study it for 12 years. Over 30 years later I have started training again. You would think I would be a good student, but I not. When I see something that I feel is counter product, I don't say anything, but you can see it in my face.
> 
> I now train by myself, videos are helpful to remembering forms. I don't have a gym to work out in and I miss helping fellow students if they are having trouble with a technique. I coached various sports off and on for 40 years so I have a very good understanding of body mechanic and training methods. Maybe when I find the right teacher I can empty my cup and become a good student.


Get back on the mat @Bruce7 .


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## dvcochran (Jul 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> But the same is true of KKW Taekwondo, and yet you have vastly different skillsets coming out of different schools.  Some are more traditional self-defense focused, some have excellent forms, some are championship-worthy sparrers, others have great demonstration teams.  Some have multiple or all of these things, and some are just rubbish.


True. I started to comment on @drop bear 's post that most other styles have been around a lot longer than MMA and have evolved (for good or for bad)in different ways. TKD has certainly had more influences from external sources over the years. Much less than most purely CMA or JMA. There are more people practicing TKD by a factor of, a bagillion, so it is doing several things right.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jul 27, 2019)

jobo said:


> well tell me, it's clear that some black bel awards are to very very capable individual, just as its equal clear that a good number are not, that then reenfforcrs my point that the system is flawed and the I'm a black belt statement is meaningless with out context of  dojo you trained at


I definitely agree with you on this point - that's why in my post I qualified it with a "proper" sensei, which in my mind means a dojo where belts are hard earned and a credit to the term "black belt".  That there is no governing body to recognize qualified instructors here in the USA, like in Japan and Okinawa, is a flaw in the system, but one I do not think will ever be corrected here.  So, unfortunately, without knowing someone's dojo as a recognized quality school, one's black belt claims can only be proven in action.

I do not agree that when a black belt gets old or infirmed, the belt should be taken away.  When a general retires, he is still
addressed as general.  The same for a doctor (MD or PhD).  The rank is not just what he is now, but a recognition of his experience, knowledge and past skill and dedication.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> But the same is true of KKW Taekwondo, and yet you have vastly different skillsets coming out of different schools.  Some are more traditional self-defense focused, some have excellent forms, some are championship-worthy sparrers, others have great demonstration teams.  Some have multiple or all of these things, and some are just rubbish.



Ok. We have 4 mma fighters. One bjj black belt. 2 of those guys have fought in the UFC. One of them is a veteran UFC fighter. 

All come from different gyms with different approaches 

They all have uniquely different styles and approaches. But none of them are duds at what they do. 

Because these guys will turn up to our gym and will roll or spar and will publicly humiliate people. 

There is very little room to swan about with an undeserved belt.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 27, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Do people go to different TKD schools challenging them if their black belts are undeserved?



Not even challenging. If I roll up to another bjj school. I do it with my blue belt.

You can bet I am going to roll. And you can bet people are going to see if their blue belts can smash me.

And BJJ tourism is a real thing.

BJJ Globetrotters |   Host a BJJ traveler


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 27, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> I definitely agree with you on this point - that's why in my post I qualified it with a "proper" sensei, which in my mind means a dojo where belts are hard earned and a credit to the term "black belt".  That there is no governing body to recognize qualified instructors here in the USA, like in Japan and Okinawa, is a flaw in the system, but one I do not think will ever be corrected here.  So, unfortunately, without knowing someone's dojo as a recognized quality school, one's black belt claims can only be proven in action.
> 
> I do not agree that when a black belt gets old or infirmed, the belt should be taken away.  When a general retires, he is still
> addressed as general.  The same for a doctor (MD or PhD).  The rank is not just what he is now, but a recognition of his experience, knowledge and past skill and dedication.


Agree. Some of my earliest post were regarding initiating some sort of school certification in the U.S. It was met with ridicule and scorn. I personally think it is a great idea and at least a start to a chronic problem. There are people with degrees from Harvard who can't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions on the heel. The same is true in virtually every walk of life where people get certification. Sad but true. Should that tarnish everyone who earns a belt? Absolutely not. 
My college degrees are from a lesser know D1 school (Western Kentucky Univ). They mean as much to me as any Harvard degree for many reasons.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 27, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Not even challenging. If I roll up to another bjj school. I do it with my blue belt.
> 
> You can bet I am going to roll. And you can bet people are going to see if their blue belts can smash me.
> 
> ...


I used to travel a lot for work. I have worked out at multiple schools in every state except Hawaii and Alaska. I always prefaced a workout with a phone call if possible and always wore a BB, never a big deal. Often went back to the schools I really enjoyed. Just a workout. But I never led class or offered suggestions unless I was invited to a school specifically to do so. As much as possible would I spar. It was just a workout and a really good evaluation of my own skills and/or areas I needed to work on. 
That should never be some kind of ego trip.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 27, 2019)

wab25 said:


> First off, I never said that I find you ridiculous. I found one thing you expressed to be ridiculous. I express things that are ridiculous all the time... see any of my posts. (there are a few members here who would gladly point you to some of my ridiculous posts) While I find that one thing you said ridiculous, I have found many other things that I either agree with or learn from in your other posts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Buka said:


> For real? People actually say that stuff?


We has a disassembled human skull in my undergrad anatomy and physiology lab. There’s a protrusion on the ethmoid bone called the chista galli. My professor was showing this and told us that’s the part that kills you when the nose is pushed into the skull. I told her I heard that was a myth, to which she very seriously and matter of factly told me a lot of martial arts train that and it’s a widely known fact it’s true.

I kept my mouth shut. No point in arguing against a Ph.D. who thinks she knows everything and controls my grade.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You need to qualify that. If they are saying anyone walking in their dojang with a certificate from XXX will get a KKW certificate from day one, then yeah that is wrong. Any Grandmaster/Master/Instructor/Teacher worth their salt will want to spend time with the person in class and if possible do a background check, at the very least. Unless they are on the KKW Dan committee it is not their call anyway. They can only recommend a promotion to the committee.
> Does hob-knobbing go? I don't know but I am certain it is no more than any other organization in any other style or sport.
> I tested for my 5th Dan KKW this year and I can assure you it isn't a cake walk. The girl test under ATA which I have no idea if it is more or less stringent. As I said earlier to @jobo she should be near the height of her physical abilities FWIW. Where she falls in with the rest of the traditional requirements is anybody's guess.



The offers made here amounted to anyone with Dan ranking from a non-KKW system could come out for a weekend to learn the KKW forms and be granted equivalent rank. They're not testing for the rank. They're transferring it.
And get real. If someone with the required KKW rank signs a recommendation, do you really think the KKW promotion committee is going to refuse it? They're a rubber stamp committee.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 27, 2019)

IMO one of the most ridiculous things in MA is people getting worked up about things that have zero bearing on their training, skills, and journey.

A while back I was in a mall where a TKD chain school was giving an elaborate demo in the main square area. They were doing forms, breaking, point fighting, SD demos, stuff like that. Lots of music and balloons. I was watching it from my seat in the food court that overlooked the demo. There must’ve been 300 of them.

I’m waiting in line at Fat Burger (I love that place) and ahead of me is a young lady with 4 stripes on her black belt. One end says Sensei whatever her name is. All the patches and fixins’ on her uniform. 

She sits down behind my wife and I to eat with I’m assuming her mother. Her mother says “I can’t wait until you’re old enough to drive so I don’t have to take you to these things anymore.”

Yeah, really supportive mother. I felt bad for her. And yeah, 4th degree black belt who isn’t old enough to drive. 

I found it comical. It has no bearing on me whatsoever. Why get worked up about it? My training hasn’t changed a bit since I saw her.

I read about a 15 or so year old 6th degree black belt online. That hasn’t had any effect on me either. Actually it did - I laughed at it and all the people who got worked up about it. Sure that stuff is wrong, but I don’t get to make the rules, nor do I want to.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 27, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> IMO one of the most ridiculous things in MA is people getting worked up about things that have zero bearing on their training, skills, and journey.
> 
> A while back I was in a mall where a TKD chain school was giving an elaborate demo in the main square area. They were doing forms, breaking, point fighting, SD demos, stuff like that. Lots of music and balloons. I was watching it from my seat in the food court that overlooked the demo. There must’ve been 300 of them.
> 
> ...



Would you feel the same if that black belt was a doctor?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Would you feel the same if that black belt was a doctor?


Maybe. But they aren't.


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## dvcochran (Jul 28, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> IMO one of the most ridiculous things in MA is people getting worked up about things that have zero bearing on their training, skills, and journey.
> 
> A while back I was in a mall where a TKD chain school was giving an elaborate demo in the main square area. They were doing forms, breaking, point fighting, SD demos, stuff like that. Lots of music and balloons. I was watching it from my seat in the food court that overlooked the demo. There must’ve been 300 of them.
> 
> ...


I agree. Too many things are being handed out like participation trophies. 
Being older I suppose I question just about everything. Even until I have been to the same doctor a few times I am not comfortable with them. Being honest, I do look at the wall to see how many different certifications they have. At least I know they have been going through some continued education. 

I can draw the same line to a trade where certification is not common. I hire the same guys to do construction/carpentry work. They are pretty much evening/weekend drunks but man are they good at what they do. It took recommendations from others and a little faith on my part to give them a try. They are very good but you cannot count on them if you have a tight schedule. Not uncommon to lay out on Monday's. I suppose you could argue this makes them some kind of Master woodworker. 

There becomes a point when I am confident in certifications. I think that is what we are all saying but seeing it from different perspectives. No person is a Master of all domains through their entire life. A great example is how some really good fighters become good coach or instructor after their fighting career is over. 

Martial sport is being a specifist and Martial art is more general and wholly inclusive. A reason why many more people practice MA rather than MS. Things like age, life, and desires are big factors. They may not be "perfect" at every aspect but can learn to be very good and proficient at all of them. 

Getting the next belt or stripe or star is checking the box to say they have learned a specific task(s) for most people. When the certification becomes self appointed or not in itself accredited, or given outside an established set of criteria, it raises some questions at the very least. Compromise can be a dangerous thing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I agree. Too many things are being handed out like participation trophies.
> Being older I suppose I question just about everything. Even until I have been to the same doctor a few times I am not comfortable with them. Being honest, I do look at the wall to see how many different certifications they have. At least I know they have been going through some continued education.
> 
> I can draw the same line to a trade where certification is not common. I hire the same guys to do construction/carpentry work. They are pretty much evening/weekend drunks but man are they good at what they do. It took recommendations from others and a little faith on my part to give them a try. They are very good but you cannot count on them if you have a tight schedule. Not uncommon to lay out on Monday's. I suppose you could argue this makes them some kind of Master woodworker.
> ...


I guess my view is different, largely because I spent most of my training time in a relatively small art. Looking around, I saw nobody using the same ranking criteria or even order of belts we used. So, it's different stuff. If someone out there wants to use belts to indicate how many calendar months someone's been a member of their organization/school, I can't see how that much affects me. If they want to use BB as "they got the foundation", that's fine. If they want to use belts to motivate people, that's up to them.

None of those are my approach, and I can't see the value in some of them, but it just doesn't seem relevant to what I do. I look at folks' rank with interest, merely because I'm curious. I've met folks in other systems who wore ranks higher than mine (my last awarded rank, almost 20 years ago, was shodan, when I was in an association) who looked to me as a "senior". I've met folks in other systems who wore ranks lower than mine who I'm happy to learn from, and who I think understand large swaths of stuff better than I do. I've met folks with more/fewer years who knew variously more or less than me about some things and might or might not be better than me in fighting. The ranks don't seem to have much bearing on any of that, except that folks with higher ranks seem somewhat more likely to have a real understanding of some nuances. But even that's not guaranteed.

So I don't really question rank much. I look at what they can do and/or what they can teach others to do. If it didn't bother anyone, I'd always wear my normal BB, wherever I'm training. Why? Because it's what I'm used to tying around my waist. If it bothered everyone, I'd just as happily get used to wearing something different. I kinda like white.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Maybe. But they aren't.



This is because a doctors qualification is pretty universally considered important. So an 8 year old probably shouldn't prescribe treatment or hand out medications.

But martial arts instruction isn't. So an 8 year old can be considered an authority in it.

The difference whether disapproving of an 8 year old 4th dan is ok.  To me seems to me the difference between whether results matter in martial arts.

If results don't matter then we are being mean to some kid.

If they do. Then the kid has been ripped of and is complicit in ripping off others.

Even headhunter who is the flag ship of happiness is more important than results in martial arts is an advocate of results first when it comes to weight loss.



Headhunter said:


> Look this kind of thing you shouldn't just be taking any random persons advice. Go to a nutritionist or a personal trainer or go to a doctor and get advice from people you know are legit. You've got to do what works for you as well and work on the balance. Internets good for some stuff it's also good for getting any random persons opinions on everything. Whether they know about it or not. Talk to the pros that's the best option


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> This is because a doctors qualification is pretty universally considered important. So an 8 year old probably shouldn't prescribe treatment or hand out medications.
> 
> But martial arts instruction isn't. So an 8 year old can be considered an authority in it.
> 
> ...


Rank doesn't tell much about instructing ability. Students' ability is a better measure.

More to the point, I think the difference is more on the opinion of whether it's important that ranks be consistent across systems. I just don't think that's all that important. It's nice where they're important, but I think it's more or less impossible to judge different arts on the same scale, so the ranks will never really mean the same thing from one system to another. Just like a doctorate in law doesn't mean the same thing as a doctorate in English. They probably mean both people have some level of expertise (assuming both are from accredited institutions - perhaps the equivalent of associations in MA?), but that's about all we can say about them without getting into specifics of the field.


----------



## Buka (Jul 28, 2019)

This somersaulting on bricks baked in an oven clip from the video survey thread might not be the most ridiculous thing I've seen in Martial Arts but it might be the most embarrassing.

65 10

Dickheads.


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## dvcochran (Jul 28, 2019)

Buka said:


> This somersaulting on bricks baked in an oven clip from the video survey thread might not be the most ridiculous thing I've seen in Martial Arts but it might be the most embarrassing.
> 
> 65 10
> 
> Dickheads.


Yes, what the heck kind of competition was that? Breaking but what the hxxx? Must have been made out of rice crispies.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 2, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> We has a disassembled human skull in my undergrad anatomy and physiology lab. There’s a protrusion on the ethmoid bone called the chista galli. My professor was showing this and told us that’s the part that kills you when the nose is pushed into the skull. I told her I heard that was a myth, to which she very seriously and matter of factly told me a lot of martial arts train that and it’s a widely known fact it’s true.
> 
> I kept my mouth shut. No point in arguing against a Ph.D. who thinks she knows everything and controls my grade.


I actually believe it is possible, but unlikely.  It would mean hitting with enough force to Severely break the facial bones after smashing through the cartilage, and overcoming the give that comes from the head flopping backwards on the neck.  I suspect it would be hard to do with a punch, and I’ve never had opportunity to really give it a test run on anybody.  I’ve not found any willing training partners.

Think about it: you could really wind up with a baseball bat and smash someone in the face in the same way, and kill them.  I think that would accomplish the described results.  I just doubt it would be as possible with a hand strike.  Although you might kill them by breaking the neck instead.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 2, 2019)

Something another thread reminded me of thats ridiculous: being told you 'have' to teach, or that teaching is part of the process (more than being an assistant instructor), while the main instructor does nothing, and doesn't pay you (or makes you pay). Thats definitely ridiculous. 

Also people who claim if you start your own school, its dishonoring the style, and/or you have to pay then a fee for the privilege, even if you dont want to be in their organization. Both of those i find ridiculous.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 2, 2019)

I disagree that an 18 year old should get a 5th degree she is still young


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I actually believe it is possible, but unlikely.  It would mean hitting with enough force to Severely break the facial bones after smashing through the cartilage, and overcoming the give that comes from the head flopping backwards on the neck.  I suspect it would be hard to do with a punch, and I’ve never had opportunity to really give it a test run on anybody.  I’ve not found any willing training partners.
> 
> Think about it: you could really wind up with a baseball bat and smash someone in the face in the same way, and kill them.  I think that would accomplish the described results.  I just doubt it would be as possible with a hand strike.  Although you might kill them by breaking the neck instead.



No matter how badly you break the face, you'd still have to break the base of the skull before you could push anything into the brain.
It's possible to kill someone with a facial strike. But it's absolutely not because you push the nose into the brain. 
You can cause a facial fracture which cuts one or both of the ethomoid arteries. You can cause any number of injuries that can obstruct the airway.  You can cause brain injury. Subdural bleeds. Epidural bleeds. Carotid or vertebral artery dissections.
But you're not going to push the nose into the brain.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> No matter how badly you break the face, you'd still have to break the base of the skull before you could push anything into the brain.
> It's possible to kill someone with a facial strike. But it's absolutely not because you push the nose into the brain.
> You can cause a facial fracture which cuts one or both of the ethomoid arteries. You can cause any number of injuries that can obstruct the airway.  You can cause brain injury. Subdural bleeds. Epidural bleeds. Carotid or vertebral artery dissections.
> But you're not going to push the nose into the brain.


True, you will not push the nose into the brain.

However, if you smash up the facial bones and the skull behind them badly enough, I suspect you could end up driving that interior piece of bone into the brain, accomplishing what @JR 137’s anatomy professor was describing.

But my point is, it will never be accomplished with a punch or a kick.  It would take much heavier trauma to do it.  So to hold it out there as a possibility is fantasy.


----------



## JP3 (Aug 3, 2019)

Buka said:


> Being an old fart, I remember when this practice started, and who started it. And it seems to be getting worse.



I apologize.  I mean, I didn't start it, but I've not done anything to fix it, so... it must partially be my fault.

The guy from which I got the majority of my Tomiki Aikido instruction from didn't ever ask people their rank, he'd ask them how long they'd been training something and their average of classes per week. He said he started doing that when he met two brown belts in judo the same class... one of them was shiny, new & stiff an the other was so worn out it really wasn't actually brown any longer, it was way-way vfaded and the inside was showing through gray & white in lots of places.

Both brown belts, one had been promoted after a demo a couple of weeks earlier... the other had been a brown belt for over 20 years.  You "might" say there was a bit of a skill difference.


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## JR 137 (Aug 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I actually believe it is possible, but unlikely.  It would mean hitting with enough force to Severely break the facial bones after smashing through the cartilage, and overcoming the give that comes from the head flopping backwards on the neck.  I suspect it would be hard to do with a punch, and I’ve never had opportunity to really give it a test run on anybody.  I’ve not found any willing training partners.
> 
> Think about it: you could really wind up with a baseball bat and smash someone in the face in the same way, and kill them.  I think that would accomplish the described results.  I just doubt it would be as possible with a hand strike.  Although you might kill them by breaking the neck instead.





Dirty Dog said:


> No matter how badly you break the face, you'd still have to break the base of the skull before you could push anything into the brain.
> It's possible to kill someone with a facial strike. But it's absolutely not because you push the nose into the brain.
> You can cause a facial fracture which cuts one or both of the ethomoid arteries. You can cause any number of injuries that can obstruct the airway.  You can cause brain injury. Subdural bleeds. Epidural bleeds. Carotid or vertebral artery dissections.
> But you're not going to push the nose into the brain.


I’d say car accident force would probably do it. Along with a lot of other injuries that the nose through the brain thing would be insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’d say car accident force would probably do it. Along with a lot of other injuries that the nose through the brain thing would be insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things.


Yup, that’s exactly what I was getting at.


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## Gweilo (Aug 13, 2019)

An 18 year old girl, 5th Dan,  many moons ago, when I was bothered about rank and international standards, I would have echoed many of the thoughts stated in this thread. I never got to 5th Dan, but I know the work involved to get to 3rd Dan.  Is she really 5th Dan,  I doubt it, and it will say more about that school or organisation than ma rankings. A while ago, I met a chap, who was 4th dan TKD, he went on to coach British Olympic team, and was the instructor for a young lady called Jade Jones, whilst talking to this chap, I noticed although he was 4th dan, he had no stripes, or badges upon his belt or uniform, so I asked why he had none of the usual paraphernalia associated with his grade, his answer was, "I let the quality of my techniques, determine my rank". This statement took a little while to sink in, and I think it's relevant in the case of this young lady.


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## WaterGal (Aug 13, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’d say car accident force would probably do it. Along with a lot of other injuries that the nose through the brain thing would be insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things.



For what it's worth, I was in a bad car accident, where I broke my nose and maxillary sinus bone, and had 20-some stitches put in my face and mouth (also a number of other injuries). The things they were concerned about in the ER were 1) spinal injury and 2) abdominal bleeding/damage from being thrown forward against the seat belt. Not the broken bones in my nose being pushed into my brain.


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## Bruce7 (Aug 14, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> For what it's worth, I was in a bad car accident, where I broke my nose and maxillary sinus bone, and had 20-some stitches put in my face and mouth (also a number of other injuries). The things they were concerned about in the ER were 1) spinal injury and 2) abdominal bleeding/damage from being thrown forward against the seat belt. Not the broken bones in my nose being pushed into my brain.



I am sorry for your accident. Hope you are feeling better.
I am sorry to disagree, this is one time I have to agree with the ER.
Internal bleeding will kill you quick and the spinal injury is very hard to fix if not caught early.
If they thought there might be a brain injury it would have had a greater priority. Fixing your face and sinus bone is not life threatening.

I came in one time with a kidney stone. The pain was so great all I could do is scream. I lay on a gurney for nearly an hour, before I was put in a room and got some morphine. Looking back on it I understand they have rules, at the time I wanted to kill all of them for not giving any pain medication for an hour. They have a hard job put up with people like me.


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## WaterGal (Aug 14, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> I am for your accident. Hope you are feeling better.
> I am sorry to disagree, this one time I have to agree with the ER.
> Internal bleeding will kill you quick and the spinal injury is very hard to fix if not caught early.
> If they thought there might be brain injury it would have had a greater priority. Fixing your face and sinus bone is not life threatening.
> ...



Thanks, that was a number of years ago and I'm much better now.

My point was that, if "broken nose bone gets pushed into the brain and kills you" was a likely result of getting hit the face, the doctors in the ER would've been concerned about it. So it seems like that's not even a likely result of a car accident that did break my nose, nevermind a punch to the face.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> I am sorry for your accident. Hope you are feeling better.
> I am sorry to disagree, this is one time I have to agree with the ER.
> Internal bleeding will kill you quick and the spinal injury is very hard to fix if not caught early.
> If they thought there might be a brain injury it would have had a greater priority. Fixing your face and sinus bone is not life threatening.
> ...


I think that was actually @WaterGal's point: they weren't worried about the facial bones, because they didn't present an imminent threat to life.

EDIT: If I'd read one more post, I could have saved posting this. But then, how would I keep up my post count?


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## Gweilo (Aug 15, 2019)

The nose through to the brain, I was told about this technique by a teacher a while back, when we where learning about, anatomical weak points, pressure points, nerve attacks etc, it was stated that a palm strike at a 45 degree angle upwards would result in the brain injury, I do not know if it is true, never tried it, never wanted to try it, and never heard of it happening, however, in these classes we where told about the pressure point M HN 5, which is on the eyebrow about 1 inch above the pupil, ( you can find it by running the finger along the eye brow until you find a dip/recess), you will not find this point on the usual run of the mill meridian maps. A similar strike to the one mentioned will result in a knock out on most people, tried it several times, and it works, striking this point at a different angle has the possible effect of eye damage and or damage to the optic nerve and possible death, now I have not tried or wanted to try this other angle. Other things this teacher taught where true, and I have no reason to doubt it's true, but sometimes striking the right place, in the right way, is the only way to get the right result.


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## dvcochran (Aug 15, 2019)

I fully buy in to the effectiveness of pressure points. What I do not buy in to is that striking a nerve in any way/direction can cause death. A pressure point strike or manipulation followed by a strike that could cause death, sure. 

I can imagine affecting the nerve(s) that signal the heart, causing it to misfire but I have never actually heard of it being done by any kind of strike to the chest for example. 

But how can striking a nerve on top of the eye socket cause death? 

I hope someone else can explain this better than I have.


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## Gweilo (Aug 15, 2019)

From how it was explained,  a strike to M HN 5 in a certain direction, depending on the strength of impact can cause swelling on the eye as a minor injury, to detaching the retina from the eye, which can cause blindness, to detaching the optic nerve from the eye ball, which can lead to death, that's how it was basically explained. It is similar to Xyphoid process, in men, when they get to approx 40, the process has completed,  leaving strikes in certain directions, at a certain place, can cause minor bones to splinter or break,  which can puncture or tear the liver.


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## WaterGal (Aug 15, 2019)

The xyphoid process is a piece of cartilage attached to your sternum. If you broke it, I'm sure it would hurt like MF-er, maybe even scratch an organ, but I doubt it would kill you.


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## Gweilo (Aug 16, 2019)

Yes it can kill, it is one of the main factors of liver damage to men over 40 in motorcycle accidents, once it breaks, if it travels to the right side of the body, the liver is suceptable, These things where taught, so the implications of striking these regions are realised by a student, I.E  last resort.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 16, 2019)

Instructors, that teach people to fight, but have never actually been in one. That is pretty ridiculous.


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## Gweilo (Aug 16, 2019)

@Martial D, you may find it funny, but all you have to do is spend a few moments checking on the Web,  and you will find plenty of medical evidence about the xyphoid process and the liver etc.

Liver laceration related to cardiopulmonary resuscitation


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## Martial D (Aug 16, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> @Martial D, you may find it funny, but all you have to do is spend a few moments checking on the Web,  and you will find plenty of medical evidence about the xyphoid process and the liver etc.
> 
> Liver laceration related to cardiopulmonary resuscitation


Repeated compressions and a single blow are quite different things.


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## Gweilo (Aug 16, 2019)

Yes they are, but when you look at the xyphoid process, there is a cartridge type joint that keeps it attached the the body of the sternum, a weak point, and the many compressions in cpr, do not measure up to a hard strike, kick or knee.


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## Martial D (Aug 16, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Yes they are, but when you look at the xyphoid process, there is a cartridge type joint that keeps it attached the the body of the sternum, a weak point, and the many compressions in cpr, do not measure up to a hard strike, kick or knee.


True, but the possible damage to the liver described in that article is resultant from both breaking the sternum and subsequently pushing the dislodged fragment into the liver. I can't imagine that would be possible with a single blow.

If it were, I'd imagine Thai boxers would be dropping like flys.


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## Gweilo (Aug 16, 2019)

Martial D said:


> True, but the possible damage to the liver described in that article is resultant from both breaking the sternum and subsequently pushing the dislodged fragment into the liver. I can't imagine that would be possible with a single blow.
> 
> If it were, I'd imagine Thai boxers would be dropping like flys.



So in your opinion, a person performing cpr, can accidentally inflict such wounds, but a martial artist cannot?
I cannot comment on Thai boxers, it's not my field,  but if you read the 1st of these posts, I did state a strike at a certain angle.


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## dvcochran (Aug 16, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> Instructors, that teach people to fight, but have never actually been in one. That is pretty ridiculous.


Way too many people "think" they have been a fight but really haven't. A war of words or a pushing match or even a swing or to do not constitute a fight. IMHO


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Way too many people "think" they have been a fight but really haven't. A war of words or a pushing match or even a swing or to do not constitute a fight. IMHO


I  wholeheartedly agree with your statement.


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## Buka (Aug 16, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> Instructors, that teach people to fight, but have never actually been in one. That is pretty ridiculous.





dvcochran said:


> Way too many people "think" they have been a fight but really haven't. A war of words or a pushing match or even a swing or to do not constitute a fight. IMHO



And then there's this.....

If I may use sport fighting as an example - I'll use boxing. Yes, it's a sport, not a real fight, but it is a brutal and dangerous sport. To anyone who has never boxed, please take my word for it, it be nasty. I've had some rounds of boxing over the years that scared me, and hurt me, more than a lot of real fights that I was too stupid, or too stubborn, to avoid.

Now take for example, Angelo Dundee. He trained Ali, he trained Sugar Ray Leonard, he trained George Forman in George's second go round boxing career. Plus a dozen more _World Boxing Champions_. 

Yet Angelo never boxed himself. He learned the intricacies of the sweet science by watching the great trainers at Stillman's Gym in NYC in the nineteen forties. Go figure.

So....I dunno'.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 16, 2019)

Buka said:


> And then there's this.....
> 
> If I may use sport fighting as an example - I'll use boxing. Yes, it's a sport, not a real fight, but it is a brutal and dangerous sport. To anyone who has never boxed, please take my word for it, it be nasty. I've had some rounds of boxing over the years that scared me, and hurt me, more than a lot of real fights that I was too stupid, or too stubborn, to avoid.
> 
> ...


And likewise, there are many who can fight, but aren't very good at teaching others to. I see the same in pretty much any discipline: there are folks who can do, and folks who can do AND teach, and a smaller number who can't do nearly as well as they can teach.


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## JR 137 (Aug 17, 2019)

Buka said:


> And then there's this.....
> 
> If I may use sport fighting as an example - I'll use boxing. Yes, it's a sport, not a real fight, but it is a brutal and dangerous sport. To anyone who has never boxed, please take my word for it, it be nasty. I've had some rounds of boxing over the years that scared me, and hurt me, more than a lot of real fights that I was too stupid, or too stubborn, to avoid.
> 
> ...


But there’s a catch... There’s relatively countless hours of film on boxing. Fighters train it day in and day out. They’re in the ring and it can be watched in real time. It’s relatively easy to determine who won and lost, and why and how they did so. Needless to say, it can be fine tuned easily by a person with the right “eye” for it. 

Actual fighting doesn’t have that luxury. To go all @drop bear with this, there’s no quality control, validation, etc. when it comes to actual fighting. We can easily prove Dundee’s, D’Amato’s, Roach’s, et al’s success and failure rates; we can’t prove a person who’s teaching people to actually fight’s success and failure rates. We have to take their word for it or reject it based pretty much on blind faith. Dundee and the like can claim his fighters are 1000-0 in the ring and we can verify this; an SD, MA instructor can claim whatever they want and there’s no way to confirm nor dispute it as fact. My CI can claim none of his students have ever lost a real fight. Prove him right or prove him wrong. 

But yeah. My CI has two artificial hips, and needs on redone. He can’t kick nor move as well as most of us in the dojo. But he has no problem with seeing our flaws and teaching us to correct them.


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## WaterGal (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> @Martial D, you may find it funny, but all you have to do is spend a few moments checking on the Web,  and you will find plenty of medical evidence about the xyphoid process and the liver etc.
> 
> Liver laceration related to cardiopulmonary resuscitation



That was an interesting article, but it did say that the liver laceration was:
1) rare
2) caused by the sternum being compressed during CPR near the liver, and possibly also by "hepatic ischemia and liver distension due to venous obstruction" (I think this means "clogged blood vessels in the liver causing the liver to fill up with blood", but I'm not a doctor), and
3) not the cause of death

The idea that a strike to the xyphoid process will cause it to break off, stab you in the liver, and kill you is not supported by this article.


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## WaterGal (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Yes they are, but when you look at the xyphoid process, there is a cartridge type joint that keeps it attached the the body of the sternum, a weak point, and the many compressions in cpr, do not measure up to a hard strike, kick or knee.



Have you ever taken a CPR class? You're all but doing a palm heel strike to the sternum over and over and over and over again. They tell you that you will (edit: almost certainly) break the patient's ribs, it will be gross, and don't stop the compressions when it happens. Fortunately I've never had to do it in real life, but it's not like CPR is a gentle press.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 17, 2019)

Buka said:


> And then there's this.....
> 
> If I may use sport fighting as an example - I'll use boxing. Yes, it's a sport, not a real fight, but it is a brutal and dangerous sport. To anyone who has never boxed, please take my word for it, it be nasty. I've had some rounds of boxing over the years that scared me, and hurt me, more than a lot of real fights that I was too stupid, or too stubborn, to avoid.
> 
> ...



Well, they are sport fighters, not real fighters. Anyone can teach sport, it is for pretend and ego...not reality.

If there is a safety net...(This might shock you) it is not real combat. How can it be? There are rules.

But instead of repeating myself, there are threads where I have already debated this.

Look those up.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> That was an interesting article, but it did say that the liver laceration was:
> 1) rare
> 2) caused by the sternum being compressed during CPR near the liver, and possibly also by "hepatic ischemia and liver distension due to venous obstruction" (I think this means "clogged blood vessels in the liver causing the liver to fill up with blood", but I'm not a doctor), and
> 3) not the cause of death
> ...



The article was to show that damage to the liver was possible, from a break of xyphoid process, during cpr, where the repeated compressions are up and down, not placing the force to the right side of the body from the left. To my knowledge there has not been a paper on this issue from any martial art authorities, so can only rely on medical journals, and other published papers, even Wikipedia states the damage to the liver from xyphoid process. I also had a paper about why the Heimlich technique has been band for similar reasons to which we are discussing, I would also like to point out, yes the compressions are firm in cpr, but not as firm as a hard strike from a kick or knee etc.


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## JR 137 (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> The article was to show that damage to the liver was possible, from a break of xyphoid process, during cpr, where the repeated compressions are up and down, not placing the force to the right side of the body from the left. To my knowledge there has not been a paper on this issue from any martial art authorities, so can only rely on medical journals, and other published papers, even Wikipedia states the damage to the liver from xyphoid process. I also had a paper about why the Heimlich technique has been band for similar reasons to which we are discussing, I would also like to point out, yes the compressions are firm in cpr, but not as firm as a hard strike from a kick or knee etc.


You’re missing something here. You’re equating a single or relatively few strikes to the repetition of CPR compressions. The issue with CPR isn’t one or two or a few more compressions; the problem with it is many compressions at a very fast pace. You’re supposed to do compressions at a rate of 100-120 per minute, or about 2 per second. And you’re doing many sets of 30 compressions. That bone fragment is going to travel around and damage anything in its path every time there’s a compression. A bunch of micro trauma repeated over and over again very quickly. A punch will have more damage than a single compression, but it’s not cutting your insides a couple hundred times.

Killing someone with a punch to the xiphoid process is severely overblown. Sure it could happen, but it’s quite unlikely. If I have the opening, I’ll take it. It’s a great target because it hurts like a mofo. But I’m not walking around thinking I’ll drop and/or kill anyone out there with one punch to it. Not even close.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Killing someone with a punch to the xiphoid process is severely overblown. Sure it could happen, but it’s quite unlikely. If I have the opening, I’ll take it. It’s a great target because it hurts like a mofo. But I’m not walking around thinking I’ll drop and/or kill anyone out there with one punch to it. Not even close.



I agree entirely, I would not consider such a strike, unless I had no other option, but the conversation was about the possibility of these things being possible, or are they ridiculous.


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## Buka (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> If there is a safety net...(This might shock you) it is not real combat. How can it be? There are rules.
> 
> Look those up.



Shock me? No, not really. I'm a little long in the tooth to be shocked by anything having to do with real fighting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> But there’s a catch... There’s relatively countless hours of film on boxing. Fighters train it day in and day out. They’re in the ring and it can be watched in real time. It’s relatively easy to determine who won and lost, and why and how they did so. Needless to say, it can be fine tuned easily by a person with the right “eye” for it.
> 
> Actual fighting doesn’t have that luxury. To go all @drop bear with this, there’s no quality control, validation, etc. when it comes to actual fighting. We can easily prove Dundee’s, D’Amato’s, Roach’s, et al’s success and failure rates; we can’t prove a person who’s teaching people to actually fight’s success and failure rates. We have to take their word for it or reject it based pretty much on blind faith. Dundee and the like can claim his fighters are 1000-0 in the ring and we can verify this; an SD, MA instructor can claim whatever they want and there’s no way to confirm nor dispute it as fact. My CI can claim none of his students have ever lost a real fight. Prove him right or prove him wrong.
> 
> But yeah. My CI has two artificial hips, and needs on redone. He can’t kick nor move as well as most of us in the dojo. But he has no problem with seeing our flaws and teaching us to correct them.


Indeed, even with those who have actually fought (outside competition), we don’t really have evidence of their success, nor (perhaps more importantly) whether they know what led to any success they had.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> Well, they are sport fighters, not real fighters. Anyone can teach sport, it is for pretend and ego...not reality.
> 
> If there is a safety net...(This might shock you) it is not real combat. How can it be? There are rules.
> 
> ...



There are certainly "real fights" in which the participants are not trying to main or kill each other. The rules may be unwritten, but they're real none the less.
The trick is to figure out which sort of fight you're facing...


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 17, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are certainly "real fights" in which the participants are not trying to main or kill each other. The rules may be unwritten, but they're real none the less.
> The trick is to figure out which sort of fight you're facing...


I would say it is competitive sparring, but sparring is not actually fighting. It is an exercise more than anything.

But I do agree with your statement about "what type of fight"


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> You’re missing something here. You’re equating a single or relatively few strikes to the repetition of CPR compressions. The issue with CPR isn’t one or two or a few more compressions; the problem with it is many compressions at a very fast pace. You’re supposed to do compressions at a rate of 100-120 per minute, or about 2 per second. And you’re doing many sets of 30 compressions. That bone fragment is going to travel around and damage anything in its path every time there’s a compression. A bunch of micro trauma repeated over and over again very quickly. A punch will have more damage than a single compression, but it’s not cutting your insides a couple hundred times.
> 
> Killing someone with a punch to the xiphoid process is severely overblown. Sure it could happen, but it’s quite unlikely. If I have the opening, I’ll take it. It’s a great target because it hurts like a mofo. But I’m not walking around thinking I’ll drop and/or kill anyone out there with one punch to it. Not even close.



And gravity is doing the work. 

Otherwise I have very slowly been developing the ability to drop guys with body shots. 

But it is such a nuanced strike that it is really hard to make it work.  

So I have thrown thousands of body shots at people and the worst I have done is break a guys ribs.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> I would say it is competitive sparring, but sparring is not actually fighting. It is an exercise more than anything.
> 
> But I do agree with your statement about "what type of fight"



Sparring is mutually agreed combat with an accepted set of rules.

Fighting may or may not have rules. And those rules may be different for each participant. I've certainly been in fights in the ER in which my rules didn't allow me to maim the other person, while they were not limited.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> Well, they are sport fighters, not real fighters. Anyone can teach sport, it is for pretend and ego...not reality.
> 
> If there is a safety net...(This might shock you) it is not real combat. How can it be? There are rules.
> 
> ...



I have been in about a thousand real fights and only one guy ever died. (And he had a heart attack)

Ok. A lot of guys got maimed. One guy lost an eye, I saw a guy set on fire, we set dogs on people, I knew a guy who got jumped and was opened up from belly button to sternum with a set of chicken snips.(then got bashed again about three months later.)

But the concept is the same. You fight until you can't fight or they can't fight. 

If you fight a guy, choke him out (which I have done) you can walk away, the ref can pull you up or you can murder the guy. There is no practical difference between the sport and life or death there.

You have either defended that choke or you haven't.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

I am not sure people get this idea. So this is Mike Tyson sparring.






Now it straight up doesn't matter the situation. If for some reason you walked up to him on the street with the intention of killing him. And he just sparred, and he had gloves and rules an all that stuff.

He hits you like that you will not be able to continue. No amount of street, no amount of bad intentions. Your body will not respond any more.

And that is all you need to do in a fight.

You get that. That's it you have won.

And these are conditioned fighters who have good defense.

You take a noob and throw him in there and you really should be concerned for their safety.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 17, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I have been in about a thousand real fights and only one guy ever died. (And he had a heart attack)
> 
> Ok. A lot of guys got maimed. One guy lost an eye, I saw a guy set on fire, we set dogs on people, I knew a guy who got jumped and was opened up from belly button to sternum with a set of chicken snips.(then got bashed again about three months later.)
> 
> ...


You fight, in a real fight, until they are broken indefinitely or dead. That is my own personal experience. I have been stabbed twice, hit with bricks, 2×4 baseball bats, chairs, shot at and have been in just about every fighting scenario, one person and multiple fighters.

You fight untill they are broken, any empathy or sympathy can cost you your life.

This is the difference between reality and sport.

There are no rules in a real life situation. There is no agreement between the parties, just those you make up in your own head. And, that **** will get you killed.

I could list the horrible things that I have seen as well. But, all of those things, are what taught me the difference between sport and reality.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> You fight, in a real fight, until they are broken indefinitely or dead. That is my own personal experience. I have been stabbed twice, hit with bricks, 2×4 baseball bats, chairs, shot at and have been in just about every fighting scenario, one person and multiple fighters.
> 
> You fight untill they are broken, any empathy or sympathy can cost you your life.
> 
> ...



Why?

You really only need to stop them from being able to function. And as soon as they are not functional even a bit. It throws the advantage massively in your favor.


If they can't function they can't attack you.

It is a more efficient method.


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## Buka (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> You fight, in a real fight, until they are broken indefinitely or dead. That is my own personal experience. I have been stabbed twice, hit with bricks, 2×4 baseball bats, chairs, shot at and have been in just about every fighting scenario, one person and multiple fighters.
> 
> You fight untill they are broken, any empathy or sympathy can cost you your life.
> 
> ...



Man, that's awful! I hope you are no longer frequenting the places where you got stabbed, hit with bats, bricks, chairs etc.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

Look at Mikes biomechanics, he strikes with every part of his body, sometimes he even has both feet off the floor for maximum impact, in the Bruno 1st fight,  the finishing punch was a right hook to the body, followed by a right uppercut, in the slowmo you saw the effects of the punch, rippling down from Franks chin, to his ankles, you cannot defend that type of quality.,


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Look at Mikes biomechanics, he strikes with every part of his body, sometimes he even has both feet off the floor for maximum impact, in the Bruno 1st fight,  the finishing punch was a right hook to the body, followed by a right uppercut, in the slowmo you saw the effects of the punch, rippling down from Franks chin, to his ankles, you cannot defend that type of quality.,



Yeah. If you get caught in that dynamic you are in a lot of trouble. 

So in a fight you have about two seconds to pull a rabbit out of your hat or your night is over.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

You say you have approx 1000 fights, that's 25 fights a year for 40 years, so if you started at 20 years old, that makes you 60 having 2 and a bit fights a month, sometimes I had 3 fights in a week end, and I guesstimate I have approx 300  fights under my belt and I am 49 over a 20 year period  (only had a hand full the last 10 years) works out at 1 a month,  how come you had so many fights.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 17, 2019)

Buka said:


> Man, that's awful! I hope you are no longer frequenting the places where you got stabbed, hit with bats, bricks, chairs etc.



I am no longer in those areas, life is he'll when you are a kid and homeless. No one gives a damn about you. 

Break them or kill them. This is what you learn when faced with the reality of life.

Anything else, is wishful thinking.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> You say you have approx 1000 fights, that's 25 fights a year for 40 years, so if you started at 20 years old, that makes you 60 having 2 and a bit fights a month, sometimes I had 3 fights in a week end, and I guesstimate I have approx 300  fights under my belt and I am 49 over a 20 year period  (only had a hand full the last 10 years) works out at 1 a month,  how come you had so many fights.



I worked some bad areas. I would do 40 physical ejections a night and would fight about 5 to 10 of them. That was 5 nights a week. But technically it would be three heavy nights and three lighter ones.

Over about 5 years.

Otherwise I have been bouncing 20 years. But that was the main period.

So five fights a week is 260 a year I think. Over five years is 1300.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I worked some bad areas. I would do 40 physical ejections a night and would fight about 5 to 10 of them. That was 5 nights a week. But technically it would be three heavy nights and three lighter ones.
> 
> Over about 5 years.
> 
> Otherwise I have been bouncing 20 years. But that was the main period.


 
Oh dear, unfortunately bouncers in the uk have a rep for beating up drunk teenagers, 10 years there junior, I would hope that is different where you live, I remember a bouncer in the late 80's asked me to leave a club, I told him to make me, so he pulled a snooker ball in a sock out and tried to cave the side of my face in, he now walks with a limp, but I hope this is different where you are.


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## dvcochran (Aug 17, 2019)

Great posts. 

I don't include classroom sparring and such because there is a control medium. I do not know how many fights I had when I was in the Olympic and PKA circuits. They also were bound by rules so I can make the argument that they were not really a "fight".  Even in the matches where I was really pissed off and wanted to physically injure the other guy I can draw a distinction. Did I want to win? Passionately. Did I want to hurt the other guy? Usually. Did I want to maim the other guy? No.   
I am not sure I can enunciate this. Growing up, "fighting" was something we did for fun. At times it was even encouraged by parents, aunts and uncles. Getting a bruise or black eye was not that big of a deal. Someone got the better of you and would concede and go on. Never would you get crazy emotional and plot to kill the other person. It helped the maturation process from every angle, taught you how to control your emotions, and that what you say or how you say it can have ramifications. 

As I grew older and started seeing more of the world I quickly realized not everyone had the same perspective. I remember being perplexed by people who got in to altercations or disagreements and just did not know how to handle themselves emotionally or physically. How some would let the most subtle things rattle them to the point of becoming irrational. How others would let themselves be dominated by the most minor of things. You see these dynamics a lot working in LE.

Having thought on this quite a bit, I don't think I can give a wholly inclusive definition of the word fight that has much descriptive value. 

Sparring, rough housing, common wrestling (not Roman Greco) and such fall into the same category. There is an element of "fun" involved. There may (should) be a desire win. But the emotion is never to harm. 

More than the local tournament level, competition fighting very much involves an emotional component. The will to compete at a high level and the desire to win demand it. Some express their emotions outwardly more than others. 
Keeping this emotional component at a low level is something I used to struggle with in drills and classroom sparring. 

For me this is the dividing line that ebbs into being a fight. Reasons for an altercation withstanding, it doesn't and hopefully never is with the intent to do mortal harm. This is a choice any seasoned Martial Artist's should be able to make in the moment. Anyone who has been in the ring understands two things; it is hard to knock someone out who is expecting you to try and injuries happen in a flash. You transfer this experience outside the ring and you understand how quickly great harm can be done. 

When I was younger I usually had three distinct choices in a fight; I could play around and try to embarrass the other person, I could hurt the other person, or I could greatly harm or even kill the other person. I no longer have the first option so the gravity of a real altercation has greater magnitude from the start. 

So what is a fight? I do not have a straight answer.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

@dvcochran , the fight instinct is something that evolves as we get older, in the words of Gary Busy's charecter in point break, "young dumb and full of cum",  when we are young we may have a reputation to up hold, and it may be the most important thing when we are young, but as we mature, the win instinct is still there, but we become reserved, no longer willing to destroy, win but, don't do to much harm, because the consequences start to bite home, we have others to consider, and as we reach middle age, we suddenly realise some things we can no longer do, so it becomes about survival.


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## Buka (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> I am no longer in those areas, life is he'll when you are a kid and homeless. No one gives a damn about you.
> 
> Break them or kill them. This is what you learn when faced with the reality of life.
> 
> Anything else, is wishful thinking.



My heart goes out to you, bro. I didn't realize your background. Not much worse than being homeless, except being homeless as a kid.

I'm glad you survived.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

@drop bear , I did not mean to belittle yourself or your life experiences,  I can only draw on my own,  I was just curious as to the amount of fights you had, I thought I Had a few, and was curious to the number you had. I came from a small group of towns in the south east of England,  where the bouncers where unprofessional.


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## Buka (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Oh dear, unfortunately bouncers in the uk have a rep for beating up drunk teenagers, 10 years there junior, I would hope that is different where you live, I remember a bouncer in the late 80's asked me to leave a club, I told him to make me, so he pulled a snooker ball in a sock out and tried to cave the side of my face in, he now walks with a limp, but I hope this is different where you are.



I'm glad you survived, too.

Drunk teenagers. They are such a royal pain in the butt. But we were never misguided enough to be that way in public. Heck, at nineteen I worked the first time as a bouncer in a huge gin mill nightclub. Fortunately, there were dozens of us, I was the youngest.

So, I'm curious.....if you were bouncing now and ran into a nineteen year old drunken you.....how would that turn out?


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> @drop bear , I did not mean to belittle yourself or your life experiences,  I can only draw on my own,  I was just curious as to the amount of fights you had, I thought I Had a few, and was curious to the number you had. I came from a small group of towns in the south east of England,  where the bouncers where unprofessional.



Same. That bouncer ko was a guy I worked with. 

It was the wild west there for a while. 

The police basically blackballed us for a bit.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Oh dear, unfortunately bouncers in the uk have a rep for beating up drunk teenagers, 10 years there junior, I would hope that is different where you live, I remember a bouncer in the late 80's asked me to leave a club, I told him to make me, so he pulled a snooker ball in a sock out and tried to cave the side of my face in, he now walks with a limp, but I hope this is different where you are.



We did beat up a lot of teenagers but then they would swing trolley poles at us.




That might have been one of the shopping centers I worked at.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

Buka said:


> I'm glad you survived, too.
> 
> Drunk teenagers. They are such a royal pain in the butt. But we were never misguided enough to be that way in public. Heck, at nineteen I worked the first time as a bouncer in a huge gin mill nightclub. Fortunately, there were dozens of us, I was the youngest.
> 
> So, I'm curious.....if you were bouncing now and ran into a nineteen year old drunken you.....how would that turn out?



I learned at a very young age, having an alcoholic father, being drunk effected your perception, and abilities, so whilst I enjoyed a beer to two, I always kept my wits about me. I did get some agression from my father, who was the last in a long line of boxers/showman that used to travel the uk with a boxing ring, and charged a shilling to fight them, and if you won, you would win a crisp White £5  note in us terms pay 25 cents win $20 back into 60's


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## JR 137 (Aug 17, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. If you get caught in that dynamic you are in a lot of trouble.
> 
> So in a fight you have about two seconds to pull a rabbit out of your hat or your night is over.


What? No disengaging to catch your breath and reset? No Sugar Ray Leonard type dancing around, throwing a flurry, then backing out again (and doing that a few times)? 

I’ve been lied to 

Truth is people get too comfortable in sparring because they can do all those things, and they think they can fight. Nope. Fighting is at very close range, little to no “blocking,” get inside quickly, drop him even quicker, and get the F outta’ Dodge. A lot of people in the dojo hate sparring me because that’s what I’m after. I’m looking to get into that Rock ‘em Sock ‘em Robots range and stay there; they’re looking for some distance. Unless you’re 6’5, you’re not going to control that long range in a fight. Even at 6’5, there’s no guarantees.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> What? No disengaging to catch your breath and reset? No Sugar Ray Leonard type dancing around, throwing a flurry, then backing out again (and doing that a few times)?
> 
> I’ve been lied to
> 
> Truth is people get too comfortable in sparring because they can do all those things, and they think they can fight. Nope. Fighting is at very close range, little to no “blocking,” get inside quickly, drop him even quicker, and get the F outta’ Dodge. A lot of people in the dojo hate sparring me because that’s what I’m after. I’m looking to get into that Rock ‘em Sock ‘em Robots range and stay there; they’re looking for some distance. Unless you’re 6’5, you’re not going to control that long range in a fight. Even at 6’5, there’s no guarantees.



See I don't so that I avoid exactly that sort of engagement. 

That way I Don need to out power, out cardio and absorb as much damage and risk.


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## Gweilo (Aug 17, 2019)

If you are a powerful guy, stick and move, rock me and sock em is okay,  a bit one dimensional, how would you deal with a counter puncher.


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## dvcochran (Aug 17, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> What? No disengaging to catch your breath and reset? No Sugar Ray Leonard type dancing around, throwing a flurry, then backing out again (and doing that a few times)?
> 
> I’ve been lied to
> 
> Truth is people get too comfortable in sparring because they can do all those things, and they think they can fight. Nope. Fighting is at very close range, little to no “blocking,” get inside quickly, drop him even quicker, and get the F outta’ Dodge. A lot of people in the dojo hate sparring me because that’s what I’m after. I’m looking to get into that Rock ‘em Sock ‘em Robots range and stay there; they’re looking for some distance. Unless you’re 6’5, you’re not going to control that long range in a fight. Even at 6’5, there’s no guarantees.


Totally agree. I'm a TKD guy so I love range but have enough other experience to not have to have it all the time. Just hangs some people up when sparring.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2019)

Here is a comparison between rules and no rules.

The Russians trained by competing in sports fighting arenas with rules and refs.

And came out and basically murdered the English who trained by fighting in disorganized street brawls.











That is the difference in discipline, toughness and technique.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 17, 2019)

Buka said:


> My heart goes out to you, bro. I didn't realize your background. Not much worse than being homeless, except being homeless as a kid.
> 
> I'm glad you survived.


I am as well. But, we are the product of our experiences and is probably why, I am so anal about reality and sport. But, it is one of the reasons I stay on martialtalk, different perspectives, from my fellow martial artist. Does change my mind on subjects, even if it appears not too.

You guys are straight up and honest, something that is a rarity in this day and age.

Hell, I grapple more since I have seen intelligent opinions on martialtalk, about the importance of a good ground defense.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 17, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Why?
> 
> You really only need to stop them from being able to function. And as soon as they are not functional even a bit. It throws the advantage massively in your favor.
> 
> ...


I will answer your why? as well, simply because if you break them, they will not come back for a second round.

In those situations, for me, it was never to just win, I wanted to make sure that they (attackers) would not want to come back for a second try.

But, I stop once they are out, our broken, whichever came first.


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 17, 2019)

drop bear said:


> That is the difference in discipline, toughness and technique.


Training does give an edge, against non trained fighters.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> Training does give an edge, against non trained fighters.


Training improves your odds against anyone.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2019)

Guthrie said:


> Training does give an edge, against non trained fighters.


Training gives an edge against trained fighters, too.


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## JR 137 (Aug 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> If you are a powerful guy, stick and move, rock me and sock em is okay,  a bit one dimensional, how would you deal with a counter puncher.


Overwhelm, jam, angles, lateral movement instead of backing up, chin tucked, hands up, that sort of thing. It’s all about being comfortable in that range, and most strikers aren’t comfortable in that range.

I’ve been in my share of fights. I’ve never been able to disengage and re-engage. I’ve knocked a few out of that close range, but I quickly closed in and followed up. I’ve never been in a fight that lasted more than several seconds. With the exception of school yard fights, it’s never been like a boxing match where it was throw some jabs, move around, throw a combo, move around, etc. It’s always been punch coming at me, close in and finish it. 

I bartended for several years and frequented bars that had a few fights every night for even longer. Practically every fight started the same way - grabbing and shoving with some punches thrown from there, or a long range haymaker followed by the distance closing very quickly (unless the person was dropped, which happened often enough).

Watch the range in Mike Tyson’s KOs. With the exception of the few long range KOs, this was the typical range. And the actual exchanges were the typical amount of time I’ve seen fights last. Maybe I lived in a vacuum and none of this was normal anywhere else?


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## Deleted member 34973 (Aug 17, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Training improves your odds against anyone.


I agree and not just for physical combat.


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## jobo (Aug 18, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Here is a comparison between rules and no rules.
> 
> The Russians trained by competing in sports fighting arenas with rules and refs.
> 
> ...


it's not quite that simple, those with a history of " organised "football violence have their passports confiscated when there is an international tournament,  sat at home in england are a good few thousand hooligans, a couple of hundred of which would have completely changed the dynamics of that fight, all your left with is a few drunks and mostly older males who haven't had a fight in decades if ever


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