# About A Sifu



## StormShadow (Jun 21, 2013)

Master Keith Mazza, anyone heard of him or trained under him?  I wanted to know if his instruction is any good.


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## J W (Jun 22, 2013)

His website says he is one of William Cheung's top guys in the US, so if you are interested in TWC then he is probably worth a visit. 

http://traditionalwingchun.com/twckf/about/instructors/

Don't have any first-hand experience with him, though.


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## Argus (Jun 22, 2013)

Have you done any research on the different lineages? I'd start there. A teacher having a particular lineage won't guarantee anything, but at least you'll know what you're learning.

For example, I won't criticize "TWC" here, but you should at least be aware that William Cheung's version of Wing Chun which he calls "Traditional Wing Chun" is _very_ different from, well, traditional Yip Man lineage Wing Chun.


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## StormShadow (Jun 24, 2013)

Argus said:


> Have you done any research on the different lineages? I'd start there. A teacher having a particular lineage won't guarantee anything, but at least you'll know what you're learning.
> 
> For example, I won't criticize "TWC" here, but you should at least be aware that William Cheung's version of Wing Chun which he calls "Traditional Wing Chun" is _very_ different from, well, traditional Yip Man lineage Wing Chun.




Yea.  I am aware.  You can clearly see some differences in the sil lum tao form and others the the principles are the same.  I have seen tons of differences in other lineages of wing chun as well.  Some master at some point in time created these differences to either suit a particular body whether it was tall or short for example or for some other reason.  I am aware that William Cheung's "claim" to have learned the "real" version of wing chun from master yip man.  I've done research and have seen the multitude of convos on the subject.  For me it matters not.  I look at skill and effectiveness with what is being taught.  I honestly try to stay away from the kung fu bickering part of it all and just focusing on training.

BTW... It has been said that master Mazza successfully defended himself against a couple of gracie dudes who challenged him.  If true, it gives somewhat of an indication that he is able to apply the effectiveness of wing chun in somewhat real situations.  Also, what are the feelings towards William Cheung here?


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## Eric_H (Jun 24, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Master Keith Mazza, anyone heard of him or trained under him?  I wanted to know if his instruction is any good.



Heard of him, word has it he's the one to follow William Cheung as lineage head when he retires.


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## Eric_H (Jun 24, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Also, what are the feelings towards William Cheung here?



He has probably exaggerated or fabricated some of his claims, but seems to be a relatively no BS guy when it comes to expressing his WC. 

He embarrassed the hell out of Leung Ting publicly which led to the reprisal that is famous between him and Emin. In later years he's pretty much totally shied away from politics.


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## geezer (Jun 25, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> He has probably exaggerated or fabricated some of his claims, but seems to be a relatively no BS guy when it comes to expressing his WC.
> 
> He embarrassed the hell out of Leung Ting publicly which led to the reprisal that is famous between him and Emin. In later years he's pretty much totally shied away from politics.



Embarassed Leung Ting? Actually, William Cheung embarrassed himself making claims to the effect that o_nly he_ had the real Yip Man WC, which _outraged the whole Yip Man WC community_ in Hong Kong, not just Leung Ting. The Hong Kong Ving Tsun Athletic Assn. founded by Yip Man issued a public letter repudiating these claims signed by just about everybody of significance in the Yip Man lineage. It was probably the only time all those famous WC masters agreed about anything! 

BTW, William Cheung doesn't need to embarrass LT, the famous "Master of Almightyness"! Like Cheung, LT has proven quite adept at embarrassing himself, regardless of his considerable skill in his "Wingtsun" version of Yip Man WC.

Silly WC politics aside, some of the people in this country who have followed Cheung have very solid reps. Phil Redmond for example. So check it out and use your own best judgement.


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## StormShadow (Jun 25, 2013)

I have to admit, it's pretty sad to see the divide in such a great art. First becoming interested in wing chun, I performed a extensive search on the training of wing chun, the lineages, history, schools ect.  Peaking into forums, commentary, wing chun practitioners from different and like lineages always seemed divided on wing chun issues.  I came across alot of this guy is fake, that guy has no skill, this lineage does not teach "real" wing chun, modified vs traditional and vice versa.  I'm not calling for a "coum-by-ya" but it would be a statement to see various factions of wing chun get together to celebrate the art as a whole.


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## geezer (Jun 25, 2013)

Yeah, it's best just to ignore the politics and go with your gut feeling. I personally was a "disciple" (to-dai) of Leung Ting during those years. True, his skill level was very high, and I value what I learned from him, but I sure could have done with out all the politics and back stabbing! Fortunately, as Eric pointed out, things have settled down some in recent years.


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## StormShadow (Jun 25, 2013)

Why do you believe all the politics as they were occurred in the first place?  Was it due to everyone trying to get the name of Wing chun out there to sustain the art?  Or was it internal bickering between former students who became masters and that bickering just perpetuate itself into other areas and entities of the art? Maybe both or more?


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## StormShadow (Jun 25, 2013)

geezer said:


> Yeah, it's best just to ignore the politics and go with your gut feeling. I personally was a "disciple" (to-dai) of Leung Ting during those years. True, his skill level was very high, and I value what I learned from him, but I sure could have done with out all the politics and back stabbing! Fortunately, as Eric pointed out, things have settled down some in recent years.



That's pretty cool.  How long did you study with Leung Ting?


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## wtxs (Jun 26, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> *Why do you believe all the politics as they were occurred in the first place?*  Was it due to everyone trying to get the name of Wing chun out there to sustain the art?  Or was it internal bickering between former students who became masters and that bickering just perpetuate itself into other areas and entities of the art? Maybe both or more?



The all mighty $$$ ...


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## almost a ghost (Jun 26, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Why do you believe all the politics as they were occurred in the first place?



Overall? Lineage pride. That kind of bickering is always going to be around and is usually started and sustained by people new the style who have to convince themselves they their school is the one true school Ip Man will visit when he rises from the grave.

More specific? There were a few individuals claiming that they were the true inheritors of the style from Ip Man by claiming they were the last "closed door" students. They were making these claims very publicly and, of course, the internet amplified these claims and the resulting backlash.

The good is that the same variable that escalated the situation, being the internet, allowed all the larger bickering and bullspitting to run out relatively quick. I'm sure it will start back up again, just like Clemenza said in The Godfather:
Michael: How bad do you think it's gonna be?
Clemenza: Pretty goddam bad. Probably all the other Families will line up against us. That's all right. These things gotta happen every five years or so, ten years. Helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten years since the last one. You know, you gotta stop them at the beginning. Like they should have stopped Hitler at Munich, they should never let him get away with that, they was just asking for trouble.


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## geezer (Jun 26, 2013)

_StormShadow:_ I was LT's student from 1980 until about '92 or so. I was a pretty passionate student for the first 7 or 8 years but the politics and increasing expense of training gradually took its toll. Finally, I got married, got a family and career, and left the martial arts behind for quite a few years. Now I'm with an independent association led by another former LT disciple who is highly skilled.


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## Eric_H (Jun 26, 2013)

geezer said:


> Embarassed Leung Ting? Actually, William Cheung embarrassed himself making claims to the effect that o_nly he_ had the real Yip Man WC, which _outraged the whole Yip Man WC community_ in Hong Kong, not just Leung Ting. The Hong Kong Ving Tsun Athletic Assn. founded by Yip Man issued a public letter repudiating these claims signed by just about everybody of significance in the Yip Man lineage. It was probably the only time all those famous WC masters agreed about anything!



There was a previous axe to grind between them. I am aware of at least one incident at a dim sum restaurant in Chinatown here in SF. I understand there were a few more.

I fully believe that Cheung's declaration (true or not) only provided the excuse that LT needed to be "in the right" to get some revenge.



> BTW, William Cheung doesn't need to embarrass LT, the famous "Master of Almightyness"! Like Cheung, LT has proven quite adept at embarrassing himself, regardless of his considerable skill in his "Wingtsun" version of Yip Man WC.



I know, for a guy who had a remarkable head-start getting his name out compared to other WC families, his marketing... it took a pretty big turn for the worse after a while.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 26, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Master Keith Mazza, anyone heard of him or trained under him?  I wanted to know if his instruction is any good.



----------------------------------------------

Keith Mazza is good TWC instructor.


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## StormShadow (Jun 27, 2013)

geezer said:


> _StormShadow:_ I was LT's student from 1980 until about '92 or so. I was a pretty passionate student for the first 7 or 8 years but the politics and increasing expense of training gradually took its toll. Finally, I got married, got a family and career, and left the martial arts behind for quite a few years. Now I'm with an independent association led by another former LT disciple who is highly skilled.



Yes, training is expensive.  Especially in Wing Chun as I have come to know. I am debating switching kwoon's b/c I found a school relatively close to my area with a respected Sifu who sounds to grade high in instruction.  But the monthly payment might as well be for a new vehicle.  Having a family, home it is very expensive.


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## geezer (Jun 27, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Yes, training is expensive.  Especially in Wing Chun as I have come to know. I am debating switching kwoon's b/c I found a school relatively close to my area with a respected Sifu who sounds to grade high in instruction.  But the monthly payment might as well be for a new vehicle.  Having a family, home it is very expensive.



It's a tough call. Sometimes you have to pay a high price for high quality. Other times less qualified people just jack up their prices while there can be very good people teaching cheaply but staying "under the radar". You might have to find them by word of mouth rather google.

BTW I teach a small group for about half what another nearby school charges. I won't raise my prices because I don't want to put that burden on my students and their families. But ironically, it can be tough to attract new students who think that cost always = quality.


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## StormShadow (Jun 27, 2013)

geezer said:


> It's a tough call. Sometimes you have to pay a high price for high quality. Other times less qualified people just jack up their prices while there can be very good people teaching cheaply but staying "under the radar". You might have to find them by word of mouth rather google.
> 
> BTW I teach a small group for about half what another nearby school charges. I won't raise my prices because I don't want to put that burden on my students and their families. But ironically, it can be tough to attract new students who think that cost always = quality.



I can understand that.  In everything, if you have to spend your hard earned money, the majority of the time you want to on something worthwhile.  If someone is extremely cheap then questions can arise "ok, just how good is this instructor".  But with research, visits and talking to others in forums such as this, you can likely obtain a decent profile hopefully. Though in wing chun, all of the drama and politics can be confusing for a new student trying to decide where he/she should began there training.  God forbid if they only have 1 or 2 possible options to go with.


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## yak sao (Jun 28, 2013)

geezer said:


> BTW I teach a small group for about half what another nearby school charges. I won't raise my prices because I don't want to put that burden on my students and their families. But ironically, it can be tough to attract new students who think that cost always = quality.



Been fighting that same battle for years


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