# American Kenpo or Kajukenbo?



## moonhill99

American Kenpo or Kajukenbo? What blends better with Judo?

We where having a talk at the kitchen table and the buddy of mind said Kajukenbo blends better with Judo because the way Kajukenbo is and that Kajukenbo is bigger on take downs and throws. 

So the subject came up want blends better with Judo be it American Kenpo or Kajukenbo.  That If you like Judo and big on throws and take downs than Kajukenbo or Enshin kaikan would be better than American Kenpo.

Is that true? Can some one here elaborate on it? Or it does not better if it is American Kenpo, Kajukenbo or Enshin kaikan they all blends well.  Or what blends better with Judo American Kenpo, Kajukenbo or Enshin kaikan?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

No idea about Enshin Kaikan, but both kajukenbo and American Kenpo are often combined with Judo, and it seems to work out in both cases. Don't think there's really a one is better over the other.


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## Buka

The best thing in life a person can have, is a choice.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Buka said:


> The best thing in life a person can have, is a choice.


Really off topic, but you might find this talk interesting. It actually relates a bit, if you consider the posters who have 10 dojos near them but can't make a choice about what they want.
Barry Schwartz: The paradox of choice | TED Talk | TED.com


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## Touch Of Death

It isn't the style, it is the teacher of that style. That being said, Kaju Kenbo has always been a grappling art, and Kenpo, has always been a anti-grappling art, that has reluctantly accepted that you might be taken to the ground. It is going to depend on who is teaching, to navigate your choice. Go with your heart, knowing you may have messed up. LOL


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## moonhill99

Buka said:


> The best thing in life a person can have, is a choice.



It was just interesting talk I had with buddy of mind. If American Kenpo or Kajukenbo blends better with Judo or not? Or if Kajukenbo blends better than American Kenpo with Judo.


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## Kevin__Huang

Both kajukenbo and American kenpo has a grappling techniques like judo. So I think both of them blend really well

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## Kenpoguy123

There are plenty of techniques in kenpo where there are takedowns from different positions. Some are very similar to judo throws so don't get the idea that kenpo doesn't have grappling or takedowns


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## JR 137

From what I understand, Ninomiya teaches judo throws in Enshin karate.

Which blends better?  It depends on how well the practicioner has learned the arts.

Have you found a dojo yet?  You can debate all you want, but without actually getting on the floor, it's all ill informed speculation at best.


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## punisher73

Since, Ka-Ju-Ken-Bo takes the "Ju" part of it's name because of the Judo that was a part to develop it, I would say that there is more natural flow with the Kajukenbo and Judo mix.

American Kenpo really depends on the school.  Many moons ago, Prof. Chow knew Judo and taught it as part of his style.  Prof. Chow also hung out alot with the Danzan-Ryu JJ crowd and many of the kenpo techniques were developed as counters to those styles attacks and set ups (Lone Kimono/Kimono Grab for example).  In the early days of AK, you would learn the proper set up for the attack and how to do the attack before you learned the Kenpo counter.  Many schools now don't teach that aspect of it.

But since either style was influenced by the Judo/JJ of it's day, it would not be at odds to blend the two together.


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## Tired_Yeti

IME, American Kenpo is a joke. It was basically a get-rich-quick scheme for Ed Parker.
I've studied it and found it to be ridiculously ineffective in a real fight.

P.S. ALL traditional Okinawan karate has grappling, throws, joint locks, and strangles. Study the katas. They're in there. 


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## Tames D

Tired_Yeti said:


> IME, *American Kenpo is a joke.* It was basically a get-rich-quick scheme for Ed Parker.
> *I've studied it and found it to be ridiculously ineffective in a real fight.*
> 
> P.S. ALL traditional Okinawan karate has grappling, throws, joint locks, and strangles. Study the katas. They're in there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


Sounds like you got your *** handed to you in a street fight. Are you sure it was the Kenpo that was ineffective? Or maybe you?


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## Kenpoguy123

Tired_Yeti said:


> IME, American Kenpo is a joke. It was basically a get-rich-quick scheme for Ed Parker.
> I've studied it and found it to be ridiculously ineffective in a real fight.
> 
> P.S. ALL traditional Okinawan karate has grappling, throws, joint locks, and strangles. Study the katas. They're in there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


You mean you took 1 or 2 lessons In it or you just didnt understand it

Also isn't there a rule against style bashing round here?


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## Touch Of Death

Tired_Yeti said:


> IME, American Kenpo is a joke. It was basically a get-rich-quick scheme for Ed Parker.
> I've studied it and found it to be ridiculously ineffective in a real fight.
> 
> P.S. ALL traditional Okinawan karate has grappling, throws, joint locks, and strangles. Study the katas. They're in there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


I guess it takes one to know one.


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## Tired_Yeti

Touch Of Death said:


> I guess it takes one to know one.



What does that even mean in this context?


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## Tired_Yeti

Kenpoguy123 said:


> You mean you took 1 or 2 lessons In it or you just didnt understand it
> 
> Also isn't there a rule against style bashing round here?



I mean I've been in many real fights (as part of my job driving a city paddy wagon and picking up drunk and disorderly people) and found the unique Am. Kenpo stuff ineffective. The things that were effective were fundamentals that are common to all styles of karate in general.

Sorry, if your feelings were hurt because you felt I was "bashing" your style. Isn't it more important that we discover the truth about our methods so that we can survive real encounters rather that to feel good about our style choices?

It's not safe to lull ourselves (or others) into a false sense of security because we want to believe we're right. American Kenpo didn't work for me. The true test is fighting. So while I don't say you should break the law, you're better off getting in some real fights and testing it. If it works for you, I'll stand corrected.



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## Kenpoguy123

Tired_Yeti said:


> I mean I've been in many real fights (as part of my job driving a city paddy wagon and picking up drunk and disorderly people) and found the unique Am. Kenpo stuff ineffective. The things that were effective were fundamentals that are common to all styles of karate in general.
> 
> Sorry, if your feelings were hurt because you felt I was "bashing" your style. Isn't it more important that we discover the truth about our methods so that we can survive real encounters rather that to feel good about our style choices?
> 
> It's not safe to lull ourselves (or others) into a false sense of security because we want to believe we're right. American Kenpo didn't work for me. The true test is fighting. So while I don't say you should break the law, you're better off getting in some real fights and testing it. If it works for you, I'll stand corrected.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


Yep I was right you didn't understand it. Do you really think that the techniques would work exactly as their taught of course not anyone who believe it is just stupid. The techniques give you different and different moves to adapt to whatever you need and yeah actually it is bashing saying it's a joke yeah that's bashing and actually I know it has worked because I've seen it work with a friend of mine who does it got attacked and he used it to defend himself so yeah youve been proven wrong


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## Tez3

Before saying X style doesn't work consider that perhaps the instructor you had/saw was the one that wasn't very good, not the style.


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Before saying X style doesn't work consider that perhaps the instructor you had/saw was the one that wasn't very good, not the style.


This is very true about Kenpo.


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## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> This is very true about Kenpo.



Over the decades I've seen good and poor instructors in most styles as well as poor and good students.


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## Touch Of Death

Here is the thing. Kenpo done well is boring. It isn't big and fantastic; it is, actually, very small but deliberate. Forms are an advertisement, and a big fat lie.


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## Tony Dismukes

Tired_Yeti said:


> Sorry, if your feelings were hurt because you felt I was "bashing" your style. Isn't it more important that we discover the truth about our methods so that we can survive real encounters rather that to feel good about our style choices?



"Discovering the truth" is always a good thing, but this forum does have a rule against style bashing. This is kind of a necessity in order to enable civil discussion amongst a group of highly opinionated martial artists from a wide variety of systems. Repeatedly violating this rule is likely to get you warnings from the moderators and eventually banned from the forum.

In any case, proclamations of "your style sucks," "no, _your_ style sucks!" isn't likely to lead anybody to discovering any sort of truth. What you can do is present specific, objective information. For example, you might say something like _"I studied EPAK for x years reaching such-and-such a rank. When I started my job driving the paddy wagon and picking up drunks I had a number of confrontations which typically went like so-and-so. When I tried applying techniques a, b, and c I had learned in class, they failed in the following ways. What did work for me was x, y, and z."_ In this way you aren't casting judgments on a whole art - you're just providing details of your own experience in a way which might be helpful for others.


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## Tired_Yeti

Tez3 said:


> Before saying X style doesn't work consider that perhaps the instructor you had/saw was the one that wasn't very good, not the style.



That's very possible.

I'm still a little suspicious of Ed Parker thinking he needed to create a new style to allegedly address the modern threats in America at the time--only to end up being another empty hand technique. IMO, if there is a "new" system that addresses the "modern threats", it's probably Krav Maga (no, I'm not a Krav Maga practitioner) since that has a lot of defenses against handguns, etc.

I still remember being taught a technique of punching straight down onto a foot trying to kick the groin. First off, unless you're an orangutan, your arm isn't long enough to block like that so you end up either having to bend your knees--which lowers your groin into the kick and gives the enemy even more impact; or you have to bend forward exposing your head and neck to attack. If that isn't bad enough, that technique will get you an injured hand in addition to having your testies smashed. Kenpo seemed to hold that a slap is just as effective as a closed fist punch. That works IF you strike a pressure point. In general, if that were true, western boxing would be a slap fight instead of a slugfest since that art is all about the most effective, powerful hand strikes. These are the types of things I saw in American Kenpo. I wasn't impressed.

If it works for you in a real fight, then I'd say you're lucky. Keep doing it. Of course, seeing that the majority of street fights against untrained assailants are usually you being attacked by someone trying to box, nearly any karate will be somewhat effective in many situations as long as you can avoid taking a punch on the chin.

BTW, I'm not saying all styles but mine suck. I'm saying that I'm not impressed with American Kenpo and don't trust it to save me time after time. If it gets you out of trouble, that's good. I don't have faith in that specific system. Honestly, I don't see how I'm "style bashing". I'm not here to be a troll or to specifically insult any individuals. I'm really just trying to point out to a prospective student to proceed with caution because the system seems unreliable to me and the way that it came about seems questionable.

That's really all I have to say on it.
I do appreciate the politeness you guys have used  in your replies and warnings.


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## Kenpoguy123

Tired_Yeti said:


> That's very possible.
> 
> I'm still a little suspicious of Ed Parker thinking he needed to create a new style to allegedly address the modern threats in America at the time--only to end up being another empty hand technique. IMO, if there is a "new" system that addresses the "modern threats", it's probably Krav Maga (no, I'm not a Krav Maga practitioner) since that has a lot of defenses against handguns, etc.
> 
> I still remember being taught a technique of punching straight down onto a foot trying to kick the groin. First off, unless you're an orangutan, your arm isn't long enough to block like that so you end up either having to bend your knees--which lowers your groin into the kick and gives the enemy even more impact; or you have to bend forward exposing your head and neck to attack. If that isn't bad enough, that technique will get you an injured hand in addition to having your testies smashed. Kenpo seemed to hold that a slap is just as effective as a closed fist punch. That works IF you strike a pressure point. In general, if that were true, western boxing would be a slap fight instead of a slugfest since that art is all about the most effective, powerful hand strikes. These are the types of things I saw in American Kenpo. I wasn't impressed.
> 
> If it works for you in a real fight, then I'd say you're lucky. Keep doing it. Of course, seeing that the majority of street fights against untrained assailants are usually you being attacked by someone trying to box, nearly any karate will be somewhat effective in many situations as long as you can avoid taking a punch on the chin.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


Right sorry but is no techique where you reach down and punch the foot and I know every techique in the system there's none like that so either you're lying, you forgot or your teacher was incompetent


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Right sorry but is no techique where you reach down and punch the foot and I know every techique in the system there's none like that so either you're lying, you forgot or your teacher was incompetent


Yeah, that was escaping my memory, too.


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## moonhill99

Also Kajukenbo and Enshin karate seems to emphasis more takes downs and throws than American Kenpo. So Kajukenbo and Enshin karate may blend better with Judo than American Kenpo.


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## moonhill99

Tez3 said:


> Before saying X style doesn't work consider that perhaps the instructor you had/saw was the one that wasn't very good, not the style.



Probably because lot of school does not do good sparring any where close to level like MMA or boxing.

If the schools teaching American Kenpo are moving slow like this?






May be okay for beginners learning the techniques. But if you don't practice your fighting moving fast and hitting hard and always hitting soft not going to go well.

If the attacker is moving low and not moving around much not going to go well in streets with the attacker is moving fast.


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## Touch Of Death

moonhill99 said:


> Probably because lot of school does not do good sparring any where close to level like MMA or boxing.
> 
> If the schools teaching American Kenpo are moving slow like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May be okay for beginners learning the techniques. But if you don't practice your fighting moving fast and hitting hard and always hitting soft not going to go well.
> 
> If the attacker is moving low and not moving around much not going to go well in streets with the attacker is moving fast.


That Kenpoist has a very unique way of doing Kenpo, and is the head of just organization, of several. You can't accuse every kenpoist of moving like that because, most of us don't.


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## Tez3

moonhill99 said:


> Probably because lot of school does not do good sparring any where close to level like MMA or boxing.



You could just stop watching videos of other people, they rarely encompass the whole of a style and anyway you should be busy training in your own style to make comparisons with others.


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## Tames D

moonhill99 said:


> Probably because lot of school does not do good sparring any where close to level like MMA or boxing.
> 
> If the schools teaching American Kenpo are moving slow like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May be okay for beginners learning the techniques. But if you don't practice your fighting moving fast and hitting hard and always hitting soft not going to go well.
> 
> If the attacker is moving low and not moving around much not going to go well in streets with the attacker is moving fast.


I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying Larry Tatum is slow? Far from it.


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## Tames D

Tired_Yeti said:


> BTW, I'm not saying all styles but mine suck.
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


You may have mentioned it somewhere and I missed it, but what style/system do you train in?


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## Tired_Yeti

Tames D said:


> You may have mentioned it somewhere and I missed it, but what style/system do you train in?



I didn't mention it. In fact, other than mentioning that I had trained in Kenpo, I didn't mention any other styles I've studied so that there would be no wind in the sails of the "all styles but mine suck" accusation.


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## Tired_Yeti

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Yep I was right you didn't understand it. Do you really think that the techniques would work exactly as their taught of course not anyone who believe it is just stupid...


Can I get you some gauze or an ice pack? You just shot yourself in the foot. 
Why would any rational person spend time and money to learn a set of self-defense skills that don't work AS THEY'RE TAUGHT? What seems stupid is training all that muscle memory in techniques that aren't supposed to work!
Essentially, you're equating American Kenpo with Tai Chi. Just a set of moves that resemble some stuff that used to be related to fighting but don't work as they're taught now.
So you supported my claims that if you want to be able to survive a REAL fight, the stuff won't work. If it doesn't work as taught then the techniques will have to be modified to work. So to learn that, you'd go to a sensei who teaches the "modified" versions which lands you....in a different style of karate. Dispense with the nonsense, learn the "modified" effective techniques and you end up in--whatever, Goju Ryu, Ryu Te, Wado, etc.

Sorry you spent years and lots of money knowingly studying a system that won't work the way it was taught or the way you've been trained. I won't call you stupid, though. No need.




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## Tired_Yeti

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Right sorry but is no techique where you reach down and punch the foot and I know every techique in the system there's none like that so either you're lying, you forgot or your teacher was incompetent



Well, I didn't forget and I'm certainly not lying (there's no need for that--I'm not promoting another style, just discussing this one). Incompetent teacher? That's quite possible and maybe likely.
I did see Jeff Speakman demonstrate punching a shin that was kicking at his head (Perfect Weapon) which is not exactly the same by similar. That would likely get you an injured, if not broken, hand. Granted, that was a movie but he was displaying American Kenpo, right?
Or are we now going to say that Jeff Speakman doesn't do Kenpo?

You guys raise an interesting point. If a practitioner is "incompetent", then how/why would he be promoted to black belt and endorsed to teach?
Sorry, but that too turns me off of Kenpo.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tired_Yeti said:


> I didn't mention it. In fact, other than mentioning that I had trained in Kenpo, I didn't mention any other styles I've studied so that there would be no wind in the sails of the "all styles but mine suck" accusation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


That is an insane amount of snark responding to someone asking one of the most common questions on this forum. Although considering your responses to Kenpoguy123 I'm not really surprised.


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## Touch Of Death

Tired_Yeti said:


> Can I get you some gauze or an ice pack? You just shot yourself in the foot.
> Why would any rational person spend time and money to learn a set of self-defense skills that don't work AS THEY'RE TAUGHT? What seems stupid is training all that muscle memory in techniques that aren't supposed to work!
> Essentially, you're equating American Kenpo with Tai Chi. Just a set of moves that resemble some stuff that used to be related to fighting but don't work as they're taught now.
> So you supported my claims that if you want to be able to survive a REAL fight, the stuff won't work. If it doesn't work as taught then the techniques will have to be modified to work. So to learn that, you'd go to a sensei who teaches the "modified" versions which lands you....in a different style of karate. Dispense with the nonsense, learn the "modified" effective techniques and you end up in--whatever, Goju Ryu, Ryu Te, Wado, etc.
> 
> Sorry you spent years and lots of money knowingly studying a system that won't work the way it was taught or the way you've been trained. I won't call you stupid, though. No need.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


You should leave.


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## Tired_Yeti

kempodisciple said:


> That is an insane amount of snark responding to someone asking one of the most common questions on this forum. Although considering your responses to Kenpoguy123 I'm not really surprised.



It's wasn't meant to be snarky. I was explaining why I didn't mention it in this thread. I have discuss it elsewhere, but in this thread I was talking about my opinion of American Kenpo for street fighting. I not trying to compare it to any other specific style.

At any rate, if you like Am. Kenpo, keep doing it. You'll either need it or you won't. If you do, you'll be able to decide for yourself.


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## Touch Of Death

Tired_Yeti said:


> It's wasn't meant to be snarky. I was explaining why I didn't mention it in this thread. I have discuss it elsewhere, but in this thread I was talking about my opinion of American Kenpo for street fighting. I not trying to compare it to any other specific style.
> 
> At any rate, if you like Am. Kenpo, keep doing it. You'll either need it or you won't. If you do, you'll be able to decide for yourself.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


You took a bad kenpo. It happens. Every other kenpo just uses Techniques as an exercise.


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## Kenpoguy123

Tired_Yeti said:


> Well, I didn't forget and I'm certainly not lying (there's no need for that--I'm not promoting another style, just discussing this one). Incompetent teacher? That's quite possible and maybe likely.
> I did see Jeff Speakman demonstrate punching a shin that was kicking at his head (Perfect Weapon) which is not exactly the same by similar. That would likely get you an injured, if not broken, hand. Granted, that was a movie but he was displaying American Kenpo, right?
> Or are we now going to say that Jeff Speakman doesn't do Kenpo?
> 
> You guys raise an interesting point. If a practitioner is "incompetent", then how/why would he be promoted to black belt and endorsed to teach?
> Sorry, but that too turns me off of Kenpo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


First the perfect weapon is a movie I.e not real second I've seen it and he didnt punch the shin he punched the meat of the leg behind the shin which is a lot softer can't think of the actual name I've got a blank spot right now.

Umm yeah because kenpo e the only style in the world to have incompetent black belts right? 

There are fakes in every single martial art and yes kenpos not perfect I know that because Nothing is perfect but the techniques are not to be followed step by step in a street fight they are to be adapted and changed to what you need.


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## Flying Crane

Here's the thing: no matter how much you hate it, someone else loves it.  No matter how much you think it's useless, someone else can kick *** with it.

Decide for yourself and leave others to do the same.  You'll never never convince the masses, on an Internet forum.


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## Kickboxer101

Tired_Yeti said:


> Can I get you some gauze or an ice pack? You just shot yourself in the foot.
> Why would any rational person spend time and money to learn a set of self-defense skills that don't work AS THEY'RE TAUGHT? What seems stupid is training all that muscle memory in techniques that aren't supposed to work!
> Essentially, you're equating American Kenpo with Tai Chi. Just a set of moves that resemble some stuff that used to be related to fighting but don't work as they're taught now.
> So you supported my claims that if you want to be able to survive a REAL fight, the stuff won't work. If it doesn't work as taught then the techniques will have to be modified to work. So to learn that, you'd go to a sensei who teaches the "modified" versions which lands you....in a different style of karate. Dispense with the nonsense, learn the "modified" effective techniques and you end up in--whatever, Goju Ryu, Ryu Te, Wado, etc.
> 
> Sorry you spent years and lots of money knowingly studying a system that won't work the way it was taught or the way you've been trained. I won't call you stupid, though. No need.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


Looks like tired yeti is also stupid yeti. I've never trained in kenpo but doing those techniques is no different to doing combos on the pads. I can practice a combo 100 times but In a fight I may only need 1 move of that combo and that add another completely different move that's the same as any other martial art you do drills to build up skills and muscle memory of different moves so you can put them altogether


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## Tiger84

Tired_Yeti said:


> IME, American Kenpo is a joke. It was basically a get-rich-quick scheme for Ed Parker.
> I've studied it and found it to be ridiculously ineffective in a real fight.
> 
> P.S. ALL traditional Okinawan karate has grappling, throws, joint locks, and strangles. Study the katas. They're in there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


Mr. Parker got burned by the Tracy brothers and hid much of the knowledge, martial arts are or were generally secretive regardless. There are sequential movements learned and once you can do them well they can be intertwined almost infinitely. It is at its simplest form the study of motion and if you can't figure it out or can't get the proper guidance then either your not paying attention or your instructor doesn't know what he's doing either.


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## Touch Of Death

Tiger84 said:


> Mr. Parker got burned by the Tracy brothers and hid much of the knowledge, martial arts are or were generally secretive regardless. There are sequential movements learned and once you can do them well they can be intertwined almost infinitely. It is at its simplest form the study of motion and if you can't figure it out or can't get the proper guidance then either your not paying attention or your instructor doesn't know what he's doing either.


Would tend to agree, but nothing is hidden. You can see the difference between the kenpos with your own eyes.


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## Tiger84

Touch Of Death said:


> Would tend to agree, but nothing is hidden. You can see the difference between the kenpos with your own eyes.


I dont quite understand what you mean by nothing is hidden. There is plenty that the Tracy's are missing as far as understanding of the system although the clues to properly appling what you've learned lye in the combination of ideal phase techniques, free style techniques, spontaneous and forms which was more to the point for his statement of an inability to effectively use Kenpo in a fight. And I suppose that information is kinda hidden in plain sight which is why one has to have a clear understanding of the system. People often have the misconception that all the answers are in the ideal phase techniques when you need all four parts to get a whole.


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## Flying Crane

Tiger84 said:


> There is plenty that the Tracy's are missing as far as understanding of the system...


Do you know this from experience, or is this something your instructor told you?


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## Tiger84

Flying Crane said:


> Do you know this from experience, or is this something your instructor told you?


I was not exactly told this info, I did ask my instructor ( who knew Mr. Parker personally and all the rest of the guys floating around in the 80's and 90's until Parkers death) about them and after hearing his response I took it upon myself to learn more about what was going on with these guys. I have seen for myself what the Tracy's and their students are doing and there are many gaps in their knowledge of the system. American Kenpo is a progressive system and should incorporate any new ...valid ideas that follow the Kenpo rules. It has been changed a few times since Mr. Parker started teaching and that's the way he wanted it. His vision was to create something that people could themselves learn to create with. All that said, watch any material where the Tracy's ( and I keep saying. Tracy's but if I'm not mistaken I think Al is the only one still involved) are teaching or demonstrating and you can simply tell their understanding by listening to what they have to say. Ask them questions about why your doing or what your doing and how it fits with everything else you learn and you should easily be able to separate the BS. Unless ofcourse they know more than you in which case they would appear to have all the answers. They sure do have a load of **** on their web page as well bashing Parker and surprisingly just making stuff up to justify "Tracy Kenpo"


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## Flying Crane

Tiger84 said:


> Which part?


The part that I quoted, in my reply.


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## Tiger84

Flying Crane said:


> Do you know this from experience, or is this something your instructor told you?


In addition , I can see where you're going with that. One should not just regurgitate information. This is my opinion that I came to my own conclusion about. In a more to the point example we recently had some Tracy black belts come work out with us and they themselves were surprised at the lack of info they had by their own comparison. I by no means know everything and in fact am far from it but by looking at what I know vs what they know it's pretty clear.


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## Flying Crane

Tiger84 said:


> In addition , I can see where you're going with that. One should not just regurgitate information. This is my opinion that I came to my own conclusion about. In a more to the point example we recently had some Tracy black belts come work out with us and they themselves were surprised at the lack of info they had by their own comparison. I by no means know everything and in fact am far from it but by looking at what I know vs what they know it's pretty clear.


Fair enough.  And for the record, I am an EX-Tracy guy, meaning I came to the conclusion that it is not a good method for me, personally, even tho a lot of others feel it's pretty great.  So I do not train in it anymore.

My knowledge of other branches of Kenpo is limited to years of discussions here and on the sister site, kenpotalk.com, and videos on YouTube and such, and reading mr. Parkers infinite insights series..  What I've gleaned from those sources leaves me likewise unimpressed, with no interest in pursuing Kenpo of any flavor.  As I said in an earlier post, we make that decision for ourselves, and something we dislike might work very well for others, so this is a personal decision to make.

The debate over what the Tracy's did vs what mr. Parker did goes back and forth.  Everyone makes the argument one way or the other, typically in a manner to bolster what they themselves are doing.  It is far from objective and is typically not a fruitful discussion, so I'll just caution you against starting those kinds of debates


----------



## Tiger84

Flying Crane said:


> Fair enough.  And for the record, I am an EX-Tracy guy, meaning I came to the conclusion that it is not a good method for me, personally, even tho a lot of others feel it's pretty great.  So I do not train in it anymore.
> 
> My knowledge of other branches of Kenpo is limited to years of discussions here and on the sister site, kenpotalk.com, and videos on YouTube and such, and reading mr. Parkers infinite insights series..  What I've gleaned from those sources leaves me likewise unimpressed, with no interest in pursuing Kenpo of any flavor.  As I said in an earlier post, we make that decision for ourselves, and something we dislike might work very well for others, so this is a personal decision to make.
> 
> The debate over what the Tracy's did vs what mr. Parker did goes back and forth.  Everyone makes the argument one way or the other, typically in a manner to bolster what they themselves are doing.  It is far from objective and is typically not a fruitful discussion, so I'll just caution you against starting those kinds of debates


Can't argue with that. It is a personal decision and to each his own. I was only attempting but maybe failed to explain why the original poster couldn't make Kenpo affective. In actuality once you learn the rules of Kenpo you don't necessarily have to do it anymore. Students should be encouraged to create their own stuff and some of those students may find that what they create looks nothing like Kenpo and that's ok. The way Mr. Parker laid everything out is basically how he created the system (if you believe he created it of course). Kenpo is very structured and the OCD in me likes that. Therefore you could create your own system tailored specifically to you. Personally I really like Russian Systema as well, which in many ways is opposite of Kenpo but oddly blends quite nicely, they break a lot of Kenpo rules so I make the necessary adjustments to make them fit. It really doesn't matter what style you do as long as your good at fighting which is the goal. It is at its simplist form the study of motion. With that said, do whatever you like. I am not here to force anything on anyone, only to clarify the common misconceptions of my art. 

Ps- 95% of the guys on YouTube are a poor example.


----------



## AsianJ

I think Kajukenbo maybe a better blend because the "Ju" in Kajukenbo stands for judo. If you do Kajukenbo then you'll learn how to use your judo in a stand up fight. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KenpoDave

It is interesting that as part of his American Kenpo training, Tired Yeti learned the "punch the foot technique."

It is the single most criticized technique that Mitose demonstrated to Parker and his students, and I can't imagine it being taught in a Parker Kenpo school. 

I don't know the Parker system, but I have to doubt that this technique exists as a legitimate part of the curriculum.

But, I'm only a Tracy's guy, and this thread (Tiger84) has already established that when it comes to Kenpo, I know nothing.


----------



## Blindside

Tiger84 said:


> In addition , I can see where you're going with that. One should not just regurgitate information. This is my opinion that I came to my own conclusion about. In a more to the point example we recently had some Tracy black belts come work out with us and they themselves were surprised at the lack of info they had by their own comparison. I by no means know everything and in fact am far from it but by looking at what I know vs what they know it's pretty clear.



As a ex mostly Tracy kenpo guy, I worked out with and even taught for several AK guys in my time in Kenpo.  I must say I never felt like I didn't understand a concept or felt like I had a lack of info.  Oh, I can't do the AK kenpo jargon like some AKers can, but I probably have a different name for it and can certainly demonstrate it.  Not the same thing as a lack of info.  

I have run into both Tracy and Parker kenpoists that I was um, less than impressed with, and that tends to be a lineage thing so it tends to afflict whole schools.


----------



## moonhill99

Touch Of Death said:


> That Kenpoist has a very unique way of doing Kenpo, and is the head of just organization, of several. You can't accuse every kenpoist of moving like that because, most of us don't.



That was a demo video. So the attacker was moving very slow.

Some one high on PCP or some one who really want's to knock you out will be moving lot faster.


----------



## moonhill99

Tired_Yeti said:


> Can I get you some gauze or an ice pack? You just shot yourself in the foot.
> Why would any rational person spend time and money to learn a set of self-defense skills that don't work AS THEY'RE TAUGHT? What seems stupid is training all that muscle memory in techniques that aren't supposed to work!
> Essentially, you're equating American Kenpo with Tai Chi. Just a set of moves that resemble some stuff that used to be related to fighting but don't work as they're taught now.
> So you supported my claims that if you want to be able to survive a REAL fight, the stuff won't work. If it doesn't work as taught then the techniques will have to be modified to work. So to learn that, you'd go to a sensei who teaches the "modified" versions which lands you....in a different style of karate. Dispense with the nonsense, learn the "modified" effective techniques and you end up in--whatever, Goju Ryu, Ryu Te, Wado, etc.
> 
> Sorry you spent years and lots of money knowingly studying a system that won't work the way it was taught or the way you've been trained. I won't call you stupid, though. No need.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk



That not want he said. He said under stress and pressure and feel of death or getting beaten up on the street remembering Kenp moves is hard. That it takes lot of time for Kenp moves be natural like when you typing on the computer or driving a car. That you don't think you just do it. It comes natural to you from doing it over and over you don't think.


----------



## Touch Of Death

moonhill99 said:


> That not want he said. He said under stress and pressure and feel of death or getting beaten up on the street remembering Kenp moves is hard. That it takes lot of time for Kenp moves be natural like when you typing on the computer or driving a car. That you don't think you just do it. It comes natural to you from doing it over and over you don't think.


Truth!


----------



## drop bear

I don't bother with secret techniques.  I barely have time to work on the obvious ones.


----------



## moonhill99

drop bear said:


> I don't bother with secret techniques.  I barely have time to work on the obvious ones.



What secret kenpo techniques they are not teaching at your school?

May be you need to find other school if there are secret techniques they are not teaching.


----------



## Tames D

moonhill99 said:


> What secret kenpo techniques they are not teaching at your school?


It depends on the tuition tier. Some secret lessons cost more than others.


----------



## Touch Of Death

moonhill99 said:


> What secret kenpo techniques they are not teaching at your school?
> 
> May be you need to find other school if there are secret techniques they are not teaching.


Nice try buddy! It's a secret.


----------



## Tired_Yeti

moonhill99 said:


> That not want he said. He said under stress and pressure and feel of death or getting beaten up on the street remembering Kenp moves is hard. That it takes lot of time for Kenp moves be natural like when you typing on the computer or driving a car. That you don't think you just do it. It comes natural to you from doing it over and over you don't think.


That's not at all what he said.


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


----------



## Tired_Yeti

Tiger84 said:


> ...PS- 95% of the guys on YouTube are a poor example.


Why is that?
Is that also true for 95% of the videos demonstrating the other styles too?
Or is it because there are that many bad Kenpo instructors around--if so, why?

Sounds like a cop out to me.



Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tired_Yeti said:


> Why is that?
> Is that also true for 95% of the videos demonstrating the other styles too?
> Or is it because there are that many bad Kenpo instructors around--if so, why?
> 
> Sounds like a cop out to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


Yes, I cop out to not having control over anybody's kenpo. If you guy's would listen, I can help.


----------



## drop bear

moonhill99 said:


> What secret kenpo techniques they are not teaching at your school?
> 
> May be you need to find other school if there are secret techniques they are not teaching.



My view is if they are secret they cant be very good.  There is a reason a technique is common.


----------



## Tez3

Tired_Yeti said:


> Is that also true for 95% of the videos demonstrating the other styles too?



Yes.


----------



## Tiger84

Tired_Yeti said:


> Why is that?
> Is that also true for 95% of the videos demonstrating the other styles too?
> Or is it because there are that many bad Kenpo instructors around--if so, why?
> 
> Sounds like a cop out to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


I can't comment about the other martial arts but as far as Kenpo goes... Yes there are plenty of poor Kenpo instructors. I don't want to troll but look at Windy City Kenpo. Generally the situation goes like this, either the student doesn't understand what he's doing or the instructor doesn't know what he's doing. For example if I went to an excellent Kenpo instructor but was unable to fully understand the concepts but was physically good enough to reach 3rd black, which is full instructor, and opened a school all my students would suffer. How can one hope to explain things when they themselves don't understand them. Usually those people make changes to the system and then the original concepts are lost because they simply can't make them work. Now I've gone from a poor student to a poor instructor and the circle continues. As someone else said , it does have a great deal to do with lineage.. However it's not that cut and dry. You could go to the best martial arts instructor in the world and if you don't understand it like the instructor understands it then anyone you teach will be sub par and then the lineage gets a bad rap. That being said I am far from perfect and I would never record myself and put it on you tube, Kenpo is very technical and we generally love to split hairs. Kenpoists are perfectionists and you better know what your talking about if you're going to put it out there for everyone to see. I would not present a concept online that I did not fully unsterstand and be able to defend.


----------



## Tiger84

KenpoDave said:


> It is interesting that as part of his American Kenpo training, Tired Yeti learned the "punch the foot technique."
> 
> It is the single most criticized technique that Mitose demonstrated to Parker and his students, and I can't imagine it being taught in a Parker Kenpo school.
> 
> I don't know the Parker system, but I have to doubt that this technique exists as a legitimate part of the curriculum.
> 
> But, I'm only a Tracy's guy, and this thread (Tiger84) has already established that when it comes to Kenpo, I know nothing.


I don't know you so I didn't say anything about you, only that there is a life times worth of knowledge in the system that some of the Tracy guys don't have. To be fair some of the Parker guys don't have it either. There were 4 official versions of Kenpo by the time of Mr. Parkers death and the Tracy's learned version 1 so by that logic there are 3 versions worth of knowledge they don't have. It was and is a progressive system as Mr. Parker intended it to be. I'm not saying that the intellegent Tracy guys couldn't have figured some of this stuff out but being that the Tracy's were excommunicated from the system I'd say they're probably few and far between. There is no technique where we punch a foot , that was just in the movie. To circle back to my previous post about there being hidden knowledge, there are also things that are incorrect on purpose to deceive those who would use Kenpo immorally and this is a perfect example of that. Go ahead and try to punch someone in the foot while they're kicking and see how it works out.lol


----------



## KenpoDave

Tired Yeti stated that "I still remember being taught a technique where you punch straight down on the foot..."

He didn't say he was taught it from a movie. But he uses it as an example of his doubts about Parker.

Parker was a critic of that technique, so I imagine that Yeti and Parker are actually on the same page.

I would love to know who taught him the technique.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tiger84 said:


> I don't know you so I didn't say anything about you, only that there is a life times worth of knowledge in the system that some of the Tracy guys don't have. To be fair some of the Parker guys don't have it either. There were 4 official versions of Kenpo by the time of Mr. Parkers death and the Tracy's learned version 1 so by that logic there are 3 versions worth of knowledge they don't have. It was and is a progressive system as Mr. Parker intended it to be. I'm not saying that the intellegent Tracy guys couldn't have figured some of this stuff out but being that the Tracy's were excommunicated from the system I'd say they're probably few and far between. There is no technique where we punch a foot , that was just in the movie. To circle back to my previous post about there being hidden knowledge, there are also things that are incorrect on purpose to deceive those who would use Kenpo immorally and this is a perfect example of that. Go ahead and try to punch someone in the foot while they're kicking and see how it works out.lol


As I said, those who make this Parker vs. Tracy argument can spin it in any direction they want.  There is an argument that the changes mr. Parker made later were garbage, and were a deliberate dumbing-down of the method in an attempt to make it more marketable and financially viable.  In that argument, the new stuff and the changes were less than worthless.  I've seen it said that none of the old-timers went along with those changes because the could see it was crap, and this has been posted here and on kenpotalk by Ron Chapel, who apparently was a very close friend and student of mr. Parker, up until mr. Parkers death.

The debate can be presented any way one wishes, with references in support, and I suggest you don't go down that path, it's not worthwhile.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> As I said, those who make this Parker vs. Tracy argument can spin it in any direction they want.  There is an argument that the changes mr. Parker made later were garbage, and were a deliberate dumbing-down of the method in an attempt to make it more marketable and financially viable.  In that argument, the new stuff and the changes were less than worthless.  I've seen it said that none of the old-timers went along with those changes because the could see it was crap, and this has been posted here and on kenpotalk by Ron Chapel, who apparently was a very close friend and student of mr. Parker, up until mr. Parkers death.
> 
> The debate can be presented any way one wishes, with references in support, and I suggest you don't go down that path, it's not worthwhile.


I would venture to say most old timers didn't understand his changes, but a change is always "more" better, when you already know a method, you can fall back on. That is to say, learning a refinement, may not do you any good, unless you know it's base.


----------



## Tiger84

Flying Crane said:


> As I said, those who make this Parker vs. Tracy argument can spin it in any direction they want.  There is an argument that the changes mr. Parker made later were garbage, and were a deliberate dumbing-down of the method in an attempt to make it more marketable and financially viable.  In that argument, the new stuff and the changes were less than worthless.  I've seen it said that none of the old-timers went along with those changes because the could see it was crap, and this has been posted here and on kenpotalk by Ron Chapel, who apparently was a very close friend and student of mr. Parker, up until mr. Parkers death.
> 
> The debate can be presented any way one wishes, with references in support, and I suggest you don't go down that path, it's not worthwhile.


Well your right, clearly we can go back and forth about this forever. I would caution you about quoting Ron Chapel, I have seen him put many people on blast on this forum. I don't believe a word of that and I would very much like to see where he said Mr. Parkers system was crap.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tiger84 said:


> Well your right, clearly we can go back and forth about this forever. I would caution you about quoting Ron Chapel, I have seen him put many people on blast on this forum. I don't believe a word of that and I would very much like to see where he said Mr. Parkers system was crap.


He has posted it many times on MT and KT, my understanding of the gist is that what mr Parker personally practiced, for himself, was very good, but was not at all the same as what he was selling to the general public.  If I get some time, perhaps I'll see if I can dig up one of his posts, but he is more active on KT now and rarely comes here to MT.

I know not everyone agrees with him, and I'm not championing any version as I am no longer connected to any Kenpo.  My point is simply that this issue can be argued in any direction you want and it's easy for it to become an endless and pointless debate, so let's not go there.


----------



## moonhill99

Tiger84 said:


> I can't comment about the other martial arts but as far as Kenpo goes... Yes there are plenty of poor Kenpo instructors. I don't want to troll but look at Windy City Kenpo. Generally the situation goes like this, either the student doesn't understand what he's doing or the instructor doesn't know what he's doing. For example if I went to an excellent Kenpo instructor but was unable to fully understand the concepts but was physically good enough to reach 3rd black, which is full instructor, and opened a school all my students would suffer. How can one hope to explain things when they themselves don't understand them. Usually those people make changes to the system and then the original concepts are lost because they simply can't make them work. Now I've gone from a poor student to a poor instructor and the circle continues. As someone else said , it does have a great deal to do with lineage.. However it's not that cut and dry. You could go to the best martial arts instructor in the world and if you don't understand it like the instructor understands it then anyone you teach will be sub par and then the lineage gets a bad rap. That being said I am far from perfect and I would never record myself and put it on you tube, Kenpo is very technical and we generally love to split hairs. Kenpoists are perfectionists and you better know what your talking about if you're going to put it out there for everyone to see. I would not present a concept online that I did not fully unsterstand and be able to defend.



The problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.

Where two years of boxing you can be really good. It not that boxing is better it is that it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn.

It like comparing EMT to say a doctor.

There so much to learn and it takes long time for it to be second nature.

If you want to take say American Kenpo or wing chun well good!! But to be really good at it well it will take you 6 to 8 years!! Yes training two or three times a week to be really good at it.


----------



## Tames D

moonhill99 said:


> The problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is *it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.*
> It not that boxing is better it is that *it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn.*There so much to learn and* it takes long time *for it to be second nature.
> If you want to take say American Kenpo or wing chun well good!! But to be really good at it well *it will take you 6 to 8 years!!*


Are you saying it will take a long time?


----------



## Kickboxer101

moonhill99 said:


> The problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.
> 
> Where two years of boxing you can be really good. It not that boxing is better it is that it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn.
> 
> It like comparing EMT to say a doctor.
> 
> There so much to learn and it takes long time for it to be second nature.
> 
> If you want to take say American Kenpo or wing chun well good!! But to be really good at it well it will take you 6 to 8 years!! Yes training two or three times a week to be really good at it.


Um so does every martial art you don't get good in one week in anything


----------



## Kickboxer101

Flying Crane said:


> He has posted it many times on MT and KT, my understanding of the gist is that what mr Parker personally practiced, for himself, was very good, but was not at all the same as what he was selling to the general public.  If I get some time, perhaps I'll see if I can dig up one of his posts, but he is more active on KT now and rarely comes here to MT.
> 
> I know not everyone agrees with him, and I'm not championing any version as I am no longer connected to any Kenpo.  My point is simply that this issue can be argued in any direction you want and it's easy for it to become an endless and pointless debate, so let's not go there.



Now I'm no expert on kenpo but isn't that the point everyone's kenpo should be different. Parker had his ways that worked for him but he still taught the standard art so everyone got the same information and then made the changes themselves to what they need. It's like no 2 kickboxers fight the same way no 2 grapplers roll the same way no 2 kenpo practitioners are going do things different and also just to add it's very easy to criticise someone when he's dead. 

This isn't me being a kenpo fan boy as you can tell by my username but I'm just using common sense here


----------



## Flying Crane

Kickboxer101 said:


> Now I'm no expert on kenpo but isn't that the point everyone's kenpo should be different. Parker had his ways that worked for him but he still taught the standard art so everyone got the same information and then made the changes themselves to what they need. It's like no 2 kickboxers fight the same way no 2 grapplers roll the same way no 2 kenpo practitioners are going do things different and also just to add it's very easy to criticise someone when he's dead.
> 
> This isn't me being a kenpo fan boy as you can tell by my username but I'm just using common sense here


As I say, it's not my argument to make.  I have my own reasons for no longer training Kenpo.  You would need to ask Mr. Chapel for clarification, or dig up his old posts, or search on kenpotalk.com for what he has said.  Personally, what he says does make sense to me, but I never knew mr. Parker, so I can't say yay or nay on it.


----------



## moonhill99

he problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is *it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.*
It not that boxing is better it is that *it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn*


QUOTE=" , post: 1774710 he problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is *it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.*
It not that boxing is better it is that *it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn



Tames D said:



			Are you saying it will take a long time?
		
Click to expand...



I'm not sure what you mean.*


----------



## moonhill99

Flying Crane said:


> As I say, it's not my argument to make.  I have my own reasons for no longer training Kenpo.  You would need to ask Mr. Chapel for clarification, or dig up his old posts, or search on kenpotalk.com for what he has said.  Personally, what he says does make sense to me, but I never knew mr. Parker, so I can't say yay or nay on it.



I don't think he was bashing Kenpo saying it no good. It just that Kenpo does not blend well with Judo. Where Kajukenbo or Enshin karate blend lot better with Judo than Kenpo.


----------



## Tired_Yeti

KenpoDave said:


> Tired Yeti stated that "I still remember being taught a technique where you punch straight down on the foot..."
> 
> He didn't say he was taught it from a movie. But he uses it as an example of his doubts about Parker.
> 
> Parker was a critic of that technique, so I imagine that Yeti and Parker are actually on the same page.
> 
> I would love to know who taught him the technique.


It was many years ago. I don't remember the sensei's full name. Last name was Martin. It was in Mountain View, California in 1979.
Maybe Don Martin or Steve Martin. It's really hard to remember so long ago. From the various posts I've read here, I'm beginning to perceive that it's possible my teacher was either teaching outdated techniques or was otherwise no longer in step with Ed Parker. Still, seems hard for me to believe since that was back in the heyday of Am. Kenpo and it was in California where that style was pretty hot.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tired_Yeti said:


> It was many years ago. I don't remember the sensei's full name. Last name was Martin. It was in Mountain View, California in 1979.
> Maybe Don Martin or Steve Martin. It's really hard to remember so long ago. From the various posts I've read here, I'm beginning to perceive that it's possible my teacher was either teaching outdated techniques or was otherwise no longer in step with Ed Parker. Still, seems hard for me to believe since that was back in the heyday of Am. Kenpo and it was in California where that style was pretty hot.


The style was hot, but, not every practitioner was so hot.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kickboxer101 said:


> Now I'm no expert on kenpo but isn't that the point everyone's kenpo should be different. Parker had his ways that worked for him but he still taught the standard art so everyone got the same information and then made the changes themselves to what they need. It's like no 2 kickboxers fight the same way no 2 grapplers roll the same way no 2 kenpo practitioners are going do things different and also just to add it's very easy to criticise someone when he's dead.
> 
> This isn't me being a kenpo fan boy as you can tell by my username but I'm just using common sense here



According to Ron Chapel, no.  And he is not criticizing Mr. Parker.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

moonhill99 said:


> he problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is *it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.*
> It not that boxing is better it is that *it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn*
> 
> 
> QUOTE=" , post: 1774710 he problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is *it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.*
> It not that boxing is better it is that *it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean.*


He means you keep repeating yourself


----------



## Kenpoguy123

moonhill99 said:


> The problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.
> 
> Where two years of boxing you can be really good. It not that boxing is better it is that it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn.
> 
> It like comparing EMT to say a doctor.
> 
> There so much to learn and it takes long time for it to be second nature.
> 
> If you want to take say American Kenpo or wing chun well good!! But to be really good at it well it will take you 6 to 8 years!! Yes training two or three times a week to be really good at it.



Rubbish maybe it takes 6 to 8 years to learn every single technique and form but that doesn't mean you can't use it in less time. You can learn the first ten techniques and practice them all the time then you'll be good at those techniques very quickly if you practice them constantly and yeah in boxing there's only a few moves so then you won't be as complete a fighter if you just use hands


----------



## Touch Of Death

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Rubbish maybe it takes 6 to 8 years to learn every single technique and form but that doesn't mean you can't use it in less time. You can learn the first ten techniques and practice them all the time then you'll be good at those techniques very quickly if you practice them constantly and yeah in boxing there's only a few moves so then you won't be as complete a fighter if you just use hands


I agree. If you teach the student a set, which includes, every direction of attack, it becomes, shall we say, not rocket science.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Touch Of Death said:


> I agree. If you teach the student a set, which includes, every direction of attack, it becomes, shall we say, not rocket science.


I remember a story my late instructor once told how in his younger days he visited an Air Force base where one of the officers was teaching kenpo to the recruits as extra curricular stuff but since the Air Force wouldn't allow the students to wear a gi since it wasnt Air Force uniform the instructor wouldn't promote them and only taught them the first 10 yellow belt techique and for years that's all they trained those moves and my instructor they looked amazing the best he'd ever seen those done because they practiced those 10 daily and apparently later the students were allowed gi so they advanced but then rushed to learn more stuff and that started looking sloppy because they were rushing through it


----------



## drop bear

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Rubbish maybe it takes 6 to 8 years to learn every single technique and form but that doesn't mean you can't use it in less time. You can learn the first ten techniques and practice them all the time then you'll be good at those techniques very quickly if you practice them constantly and yeah in boxing there's only a few moves so then you won't be as complete a fighter if you just use hands



Not that many expert boxers with less than 6 years. By the way.


----------



## Tames D

Kenpoguy123 said:


> I remember a story my late instructor once told how in his younger days he visited an Air Force base where one of the officers was teaching kenpo to the recruits as extra curricular stuff but since the Air Force wouldn't allow the students to wear a gi since it wasnt Air Force uniform the instructor wouldn't promote them and only taught them the first 10 yellow belt techique and for years that's all they trained those moves and my instructor they looked amazing the best he'd ever seen those done because they practiced those 10 daily and apparently later the students were allowed gi so they advanced but then rushed to learn more stuff and that started looking sloppy because they were rushing through it


Is a gi required in Kenpo to advance to new material? It seems to me that they could still promote to new levels without wearing a belt. The sifu should be able to sign certs.


----------



## drop bear

Tames D said:


> Is a gi required in Kenpo to advance to new material? It seems to me that they could still promote to new levels without wearing a belt. The sifu should be able to sign certs.



In a lot of the beej you wouldn't.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tames D said:


> Is a gi required in Kenpo to advance to new material? It seems to me that they could still promote to new levels without wearing a belt. The sifu should be able to sign certs.


I can't imagine an instructor in any art telling a group of students that they can't advance because they're not allowed by one of the armed forces to wear a gi. That is absolutely ridiculous.


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## Tired_Yeti

Kenpoguy123 said:


> I remember a story my late instructor once told how in his younger days he visited an Air Force base where one of the officers was teaching kenpo to the recruits as extra curricular stuff but since the Air Force wouldn't allow the students to wear a gi since it wasnt Air Force uniform the instructor wouldn't promote them and only taught them the first 10 yellow belt techique and for years that's all they trained those moves and my instructor they looked amazing the best he'd ever seen those done because they practiced those 10 daily and apparently later the students were allowed gi so they advanced but then rushed to learn more stuff and that started looking sloppy because they were rushing through it


Sounds like you were fed a load of BS.
1) Officers don't train recruits. Sergeants (usually E6 and E7 grades) do as far as military training. An officer could teach a karate class in his personal time after duty hours but it would not be considered official government business.
2) Kenpo is not and was not the official hand-to-hand system taught to the US military; therefore...
3) They would not have trained during duty hours. They would train during their off-duty/free time--which means they would have had no mandatory uniform requirement.
4) Even if they had to train in the physical fitness uniform, there would be no reason they could not train, test, and advance in rank. They simply would not be able to wear the belt during class and would have had to simply keep it "at home". Even then, there's no reason they couldn't have been given a belt for their personal display or collection.

More nonsense...and you guys wonder why I shake my head at American Kenpo.


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tired_Yeti said:


> Sounds like you were fed a load of BS.
> 1) Officers don't train recruits. Sergeants (usually E6 and E7 grades) do as far as military training. An officer could teach a karate class in his personal time after duty hours but it would not be considered official government business.
> 2) Kenpo is not and was not the official hand-to-hand system taught to the US military; therefore...
> 3) They would not have trained during duty hours. They would train during their off-duty/free time--which means they would have had no mandatory uniform requirement.
> 4) Even if they had to train in the physical fitness uniform, there would be no reason they could not train, test, and advance in rank. They simply would not be able to wear the belt during class and would have had to simply keep it "at home". Even then, there's no reason they couldn't have been given a belt for their personal display or collection.
> 
> More nonsense...and you guys wonder why I shake my head at American Kenpo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


I'm shaking my head at you. What does some second hand anecdotal experience have to do with American Kenpo?


----------



## moonhill99

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Rubbish maybe it takes 6 to 8 years to learn every single technique and form but that doesn't mean you can't use it in less time. You can learn the first ten techniques and practice them all the time then you'll be good at those techniques very quickly if you practice them constantly and yeah in boxing there's only a few moves so then you won't be as complete a fighter if you just use hands



No I don't think that what people mean when they say Kenpo or wing chun takes 6 to 8 years to get really good at it.

It not the technique or number of technique it is being really good at it.

A metaphor would be like learning Morse code ,keyboard typing or shorthand. You could learn it in day or two but to be really good at it and really fast it will take time.

Some one spending two or three times a week for say 4 years learning Morse code ,keyboard typing or shorthand will be really fast and good than some one spending only a weak.

 Some martial arts out there to get really good at it takes last time and other martial arts out there take longer with Kenpo and wing chun being one of them.

Also I don't think anyone here is saying you can be pro boxer in last than 6 years.


----------



## moonhill99

drop bear said:


> Not that many expert boxers with less than 6 years. By the way.



It the amount of time takes longer.

The beginner, intermediate, advanced and really advanced.

Boxing you can reach advanced faster than say Kenpo or wing chun. 

Not a advanced in 6 yes of boxing but well above intermediate. Where you be getting close to intermediate at say Kenpo or wing chun with only 6 years.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

moonhill99 said:


> It the amount of time takes longer.
> 
> The beginner, intermediate, advanced and really advanced.
> 
> Boxing you can reach advanced faster than say Kenpo or wing chun.
> 
> Not a advanced in 6 yes of boxing but well above intermediate. Where you be getting close to intermediate at say Kenpo or wing chun with only 6 years.


Do you have any experience in either style to actually say this or are you just making assumptions


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

moonhill99 said:


> It the amount of time takes longer.
> 
> The beginner, intermediate, advanced and really advanced.
> 
> Boxing you can reach advanced faster than say Kenpo or wing chun.
> 
> Not a advanced in 6 yes of boxing but well above intermediate. Where you be getting close to intermediate at say Kenpo or wing chun with only 6 years.


You can very easily reach what would be considered intermediate in Kenpo in less than 6 years. If you have been practicing for 6 years, I'd say you are at the very least in the advanced stage, and possibly in the really advanced (possibly because that distinction is really arbitrary and I got no clue what you need to do to get the "really" added).


----------



## lqkenpo

'Its not how long you have been in the art, its how long you have been at it' - Ed Parker

Again a student who practices twice a week in lessons and gets to a certain level in 6 years. but if the student practices 4 times a week can get to a level in 3 years. all students are different and the training and material should be tailored to the student. There are no bad students just bad instructors.

Tired_Yeti I think honestly it sounds like you had a bad experience of Kenpo which is a shame. I would recommend going to the family black belt tree of Mr. Parker and seek out one of the direct seniors or there of. Trejo, Wedlake, Chapel, Dennis Conaster, Rich hale, Mohamed Tabatabi, Graham Lelliott, Bob White, John Sepevelda, Angelo Collado, (although not Parker direct from my knowledge he is a wonderful martial artist trainedd by Frank Trejo) etc. See if this changes your mind. if it doesn't then that's fine. Every martial arts is fantastic and works in the context of which it is designed for.


----------



## moonhill99

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Do you have any experience in either style to actually say this or are you just making assumptions



No it is people that said Kenpo or wing chun takes long time to be good at it. Where in two or three years of boxing you be really good at it!!! But to be that good at say Kenpo or wing chun it take 6 years or more.

Now well there is lot of anti- Kenpo and anti-wing chun people out there and MMA and boxers that like to talk trash about Kenpo or wing chun. So if that is false.Than I will take it back.

If it is false and by 6 to 8 years mark you be looking at more closer to advance level Kenpo or advance level wing chun.

And 4 years of boxing you be at intermediate level and 4 years of Kenpo or 4 years of wing chun you be at intermediate level.


----------



## Tez3

moonhill99 said:


> A metaphor would be like learning Morse code ,keyboard typing or shorthand. You could learn it in day or two but to be really good at it and really fast it will take time.
> 
> Some one spending two or three times a week for say 4 years learning Morse code ,keyboard typing or shorthand will be really fast and good than some one spending only a weak.



Nope, when I was in the RAF, Morse was still taught, it took only a few lessons, some memorising and practice. You would be an expert within weeks as indeed the operators were. Takes years, no in the least.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

moonhill99 said:


> No it is people that said Kenpo or wing chun takes long time to be good at it. Where in two or three years of boxing you be really good at it!!! But to be that good at say Kenpo or wing chun it take 6 years or more.
> 
> Now well there is lot of anti- Kenpo and anti-wing chun people out there and MMA and boxers that like to talk trash about Kenpo or wing chun. So if that is false.Than I will take it back.
> 
> If it is false and by 6 to 8 years mark you be looking at more closer to advance level Kenpo or advance level wing chun.
> 
> And 4 years of boxing you be at intermediate level and 4 years of Kenpo or 4 years of wing chun you be at intermediate level.


Since apparently you missed it, read my response to you a couple posts back.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

moonhill99 said:


> No it is people that said Kenpo or wing chun takes long time to be good at it. Where in two or three years of boxing you be really good at it!!! But to be that good at say Kenpo or wing chun it take 6 years or more.
> 
> Now well there is lot of anti- Kenpo and anti-wing chun people out there and MMA and boxers that like to talk trash about Kenpo or wing chun. So if that is false.Than I will take it back.
> 
> If it is false and by 6 to 8 years mark you be looking at more closer to advance level Kenpo or advance level wing chun.
> 
> And 4 years of boxing you be at intermediate level and 4 years of Kenpo or 4 years of wing chun you be at intermediate level.



Well those people don't know what they're talking do you think someone who's been doing kenpo for 3 years couldn't defend themselves as for wing chun I've got the perfect example Bruce lee he spent well less than 8 years doing wing chun in Hong Kong yet he was in loads of street fights and used it effectively and used it when he moved to America on other martial artists so yeah there you go point proven


----------



## Flying Crane

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Well those people don't know what they're talking do you think someone who's been doing kenpo for 3 years couldn't defend themselves as for wing chun I've got the perfect example Bruce lee he spent well less than 8 years doing wing chun in Hong Kong yet he was in loads of street fights and used it effectively and used it when he moved to America on other martial artists so yeah there you go point proven


Please use some punctuation.  It is very difficult to read your run-on paragraphs.

Also:do we really know how many fights Bruce lee had?


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## KenpoDave

Flying Crane said:


> Please use some punctuation.  It is very difficult to read your run-on paragraphs.
> 
> Also:do we really know how many fights Bruce lee had?



1, I think.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Well those people don't know what they're talking do you think someone who's been doing kenpo for 3 years couldn't defend themselves as for wing chun I've got the perfect example Bruce lee he spent well less than 8 years doing wing chun in Hong Kong yet he was in loads of street fights and used it effectively and used it when he moved to America on other martial artists so yeah there you go point proven


While I agree with your point, it is not the best idea to use one person to prove your point, that person may just be the exception that proves your point. With Bruce Lee, he studied more than wing chun, trained harder than 99% of us ever will and, like flying crane pointed out, we have no accurate information on the number of fights he was in, when they happened in his career, or what the actual results were.


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## drop bear

I know a guy who trained by drinking rum and won a heap of street fights.

But drinking rum is probably not a suitable martial art for most people.


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## moonhill99

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Well those people don't know what they're talking do you think someone who's been doing kenpo for 3 years couldn't defend themselves as for wing chun I've got the perfect example Bruce lee he spent well less than 8 years doing wing chun in Hong Kong yet he was in loads of street fights and used it effectively and used it when he moved to America on other martial artists so yeah there you go point proven



What kind of kenpo or school where you in that you could not defend your self in 3 years of training?

It seems odd 3 years of training and you could not defend your .

How many fights where you in? Was one guy just better fighter than you? Did you not take well to hits?You know how to fight but did not take well to the hits?


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## Tez3

moonhill99 said:


> What kind of kenpo or school where you in that you could not defend your self in 3 years of training?
> 
> It seems odd 3 years of training and you could not defend your .
> 
> How many fights where you in? Was one guy just better fighter than you? Did you not take well to hits?You know how to fight but did not take well to the hits?




I don't think you've understood what he said.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

moonhill99 said:


> What kind of kenpo or school where you in that you could not defend your self in 3 years of training?
> 
> It seems odd 3 years of training and you could not defend your .
> 
> How many fights where you in? Was one guy just better fighter than you? Did you not take well to hits?You know how to fight but did not take well to the hits?


You were the one saying it takes 6 years of training in kenpo/WC to be practical........
He was saying that if you have trained for 3 years you should be able to defend yourself.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> I know a guy who trained by drinking rum and won a heap of street fights.
> 
> But drinking rum is probably not a suitable martial art for most people.



Just sailors.


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## Tired_Yeti

moonhill99 said:


> No it is people that said Kenpo or wing chun takes long time to be good at it. Where in two or three years of boxing you be really good at it!!! But to be that good at say Kenpo or wing chun it take 6 years or more...


But to be fair, boxing does not contain the open hand techniques, grappling/trapping, or kicking that AK or WC have. If you're only training in punching techniques then it's reasonable to assume it would take less time than if you're training in punching and kicking and grabs/throws. 

P.S. One American Kenpo sensei told me that starting fresh at white belt, it will take approx. 8 years to earn a black belt in that style.




Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## KenpoDave

Tired_Yeti said:


> P.S. One American Kenpo sensei told me that starting fresh at white belt, it will take approx. 8 years to earn a black belt in that style.



It may just be me, but I feel that if it takes 8 years to earn a black belt, (assuming the student is doing the requisite work, attending classes regularly, etc.), then the style is either overly complicated or the instructor is overly strict.  

My opinion. In 8 years, I can become a surgeon.


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## drop bear

KenpoDave said:


> It may just be me, but I feel that if it takes 8 years to earn a black belt, (assuming the student is doing the requisite work, attending classes regularly, etc.), then the style is either overly complicated or the instructor is overly strict.
> 
> My opinion. In 8 years, I can become a surgeon.



It is the fighting back that adds complexity.


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## Tez3

KenpoDave said:


> My opinion. In 8 years, I can become a surgeon.



Not if you are only doing it for a couple of hours a week. Most martial artists cannot train for 10-12 hours a day seven days a week so 8 years is reasonable for an activity that is done for a few hours a week, most weeks. The average time most people spend is four hours a week. Yes there some who can do a lot more before you all start posting how long you have. Most people with jobs and families don't have a lot of spare time hence the average of four hours a week..... so eight years is reasonable.


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## Tired_Yeti

KenpoDave said:


> It may just be me, but I feel that if it takes 8 years to earn a black belt, (assuming the student is doing the requisite work, attending classes regularly, etc.), then the style is...overly complicated...


That's one of my chief complaints about America Kenpo. 



"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Tired_Yeti

Tez3 said:


> Not if you are only doing it for a couple of hours a week. Most martial artists cannot train for 10-12 hours a day seven days a week so 8 years is reasonable for an activity that is done for a few hours a week, most weeks. The average time most people spend is four hours a week. Yes there some who can do a lot more before you all start posting how long you have. Most people with jobs and families don't have a lot of spare time hence the average of four hours a week..... so eight years is reasonable.


Compare that to the average of about 4 years to earn a black belt in Goju Ryu, though.


"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


----------



## Tired_Yeti

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Well those people don't know what they're talking do you think someone who's been doing kenpo for 3 years couldn't defend themselves as for wing chun I've got the perfect example Bruce lee he spent well less than 8 years doing wing chun in Hong Kong yet he was in loads of street fights and used it effectively and used it when he moved to America on other martial artists so yeah there you go point proven





moonhill99 said:


> What kind of kenpo or school where you in that you could not defend your self in 3 years of training?
> 
> It seems odd 3 years of training and you could not defend your .
> 
> How many fights where you in? Was one guy just better fighter than you? Did you not take well to hits?You know how to fight but did not take well to the hits?









"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


----------



## Tez3

Tired_Yeti said:


> Compare that to the average of about 4 years to earn a black belt in Goju Ryu, though.
> 
> 
> "Re-stomp the groin"
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk



I can't see why it matters when you get your black belt, different styles, more or less to learn, different people, it's just a belt at the end of the day. If people are happy with their training they shouldn't be comparing themselves with others. On other threads we have people complaining that black belts are given out like confetti, kids get them, you are guaranteed one after a year or two at some places so really there is no perfect time to get your belt. Eight years is only a long time only in our 'want everything today' societies. For the record it took me ten to get mine in Wado Ryu.


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## Dirty Dog

KenpoDave said:


> It may just be me, but I feel that if it takes 8 years to earn a black belt, (assuming the student is doing the requisite work, attending classes regularly, etc.), then the style is either overly complicated or the instructor is overly strict.



I guess our system is either overly complex or we're overly strict. Oh well. 
Or maybe "black belt" means different things in different systems. If you want one that you can get in four years, there are plenty out there. If you want one you can get in a year, there are plenty out there. There are even plenty that you can get just about as fast as your check can clear.


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## Azulx

Dirty Dog said:


> I guess our system is either overly complex or we're overly strict. Oh well.
> Or maybe "black belt" means different things in different systems. If you want one that you can get in four years, there are plenty out there. If you want one you can get in a year, there are plenty out there. There are even plenty that you can get just about as fast as your check can clear.



This is something I learned early on: Black belt means something different in every school. The time requirements vary greatly as well. The first black belt I ever saw my instructor award was to a student who had been training just about 15 months. I thought this was incredibly odd, but hey it was his decision. His two junior black belts got their belts in just under 2 years. Since he has been head instructor he as only awarded 1 adult black belt. He has been head instructor for 3 years. 

At our school a black belt is a leader. Not so much skill and knowledge/mastery. We have no black belt  students. So my instructor pushes a few that he deems talented through an accelerated path. He always talks about how important it is for a school to have black belts, because the school can then become established. He teaches us that a black belt is a mind set, and that it isn't all about the physical belt around your waist. I am the belt before black, and I know my instructor has every intention of testing me before the schools "set" requirements. When that day happens it is what it is. The black belt will symbolize to me the hard work that I have put into the school, someone for lower ranks to look up to. That is it, nothing will change, I will still be the same student eager to learn and get better. It honestly could be any color, the belt is just a belt. In other schools the black belt may be a sign of skill and ability, knowledge, mastery etc. That's great, but that isn't what it means to us. 

I remember we had  a student who had a 1st dan is TSD. He said it took him 6 years to make. he walked into our school thinking he was a god. No one really paid attention to him, because all he did was look down upon us. I guess in his school black belt meant everything else was beneath him. He lasted about 2 months. Oh well I hope he carries his black belt around at all times, because he may need if he ever has to defend himself.


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## Azulx

Dirty Dog said:


> guess our system is either overly complex or we're overly strict. Oh well.
> Or maybe "black belt" means different things in different systems. If you want one that you can get in four years, there are plenty out there. If you want one you can get in a year, there are plenty out there. There are even plenty that you can get just about as fast as your check can clear.



Oh. also I remember in a post a while ago you said it typically takes 6-8 years to achieve first dan at your school. How long does it then take to achieve 2nd dan?


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## Tez3

Azulx said:


> remember we had a student who had a 1st dan is TSD. He said it took him 6 years to make. he walked into our school thinking he was a god



That's down to his personality rather than his style, he'd likely be that way whatever he did.


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## Azulx

Tez3 said:


> That's down to his personality rather than his style, he'd likely be that way whatever he did.



You're right, he was a special case. That boy had issues. I remember we were doing a drill where we had to do an inner forearm block , he straight up said the TSD way of blocking is more efficient, and proceeded to teach our students a different block. This obviously not being what are instructor was asking us to do. Our instructor just gave this look, basically saying what the hell are you doing kid? Seriously, who does that? Goes to a school and tries to change what the instructor is teaching.


----------



## Tez3

Azulx said:


> You're right, he was a special case. That boy had issues. I remember we were doing a drill where we had to do an inner forearm block , he straight up said the TSD way of blocking is more efficient, and proceeded to teach our students a different block. This obviously not being what are instructor was asking us to do. Our instructor just gave this look, basically saying what the hell are you doing kid? Seriously, who does that? Goes to a school and tries to change what the instructor is teaching.



We had a brown belt Judoka ( a military policeman of all things) who bit the chap he was grappling with. He was invited to grapple with our chief instructor, he declined and left.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Azulx said:


> Oh. also I remember in a post a while ago you said it typically takes 6-8 years to achieve first dan at your school. How long does it then take to achieve 2nd dan?



That's actually a difficult question to answer. Like most schools, a significant portion of our students move on after reaching 1st Dan. Of those who stay active, only a few have promoted beyond 1st.
One person promoted to 2nd Dan after 2-3 years as a 1st Dan (this was before I joined this school). When he wanted to promote to 3rd Dan, our KJN declined to promote him. I do not know why, but I do know it wasn't a lack of technical ability.
We have one active 2nd Dan. He reached 1st Dan, trained sporadically, moved away, trained in other arts, moved back, trained for another 2 years, then promoted to 2nd Dan.
I came to this school with other rank, but chose to strap on a white belt and start from scratch. I was awarded 1st Dan in a bit less than 2 years, 2nd Dan 10-11 months later, and 3rd Dan about 18 months later. 
My own instructor was a 3rd Dan when I joined this school. He had been 3rd Dan for something like 20 years because he doesn't much worry about the belt. He was handed a 4th Dan and told to strap it on about 4 years ago. About 2 years ago he was ordered to remove it and put on a 5th Dan.
So... we don't have rigid rules about these things. Technical skill, teaching ability, leadership... these are the most important factors for those promoting above 1st Dan in out system, not time in rank.


----------



## lqkenpo

Well time in rank for American Kenpo is often required. I got my 1st Dan in 2009, 2nd in 2011, 3rd in 2014. I'm not sure when I'm going for my 4th but its not something I worry or think about. I will be eligible in 2018 but that's down to my instructor to decide. Saying this my late instructor got his 6th in 2009 and then his 7th in 2013 with only 4 years difference, these things are not always set in stone.


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## KenpoMaster805

I choose American Kenpo because thats what i do and its good for grappling and judo


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## drop bear

Azulx said:


> You're right, he was a special case. That boy had issues. I remember we were doing a drill where we had to do an inner forearm block , he straight up said the TSD way of blocking is more efficient, and proceeded to teach our students a different block. This obviously not being what are instructor was asking us to do. Our instructor just gave this look, basically saying what the hell are you doing kid? Seriously, who does that? Goes to a school and tries to change what the instructor is teaching.



Yeah. I have had that.

The funniest is rolling with a guy and demolishing him. And then getting a critique on how you could have done it better.

Which happens a bit.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I have had that.
> 
> The funniest is rolling with a guy and demolishing him. And then getting a critique on how you could have done it better.
> 
> Which happens a bit.


I never got that, considering most people can demolish me with rolling. 

A couple weeks ago though, a friend who practices HEMA was arguing with me that it's more practical than fencing. I won't argue with that part, but mentioned that fencing 2-3 hours a day 5 times a week probably gave me more weapon experience than his once a week/every other week of HEMA. 
He suggested a bout. I allowed him to pick the weapons we used (we were at his house), along with the rules. We sparred, and I was very clearly the victor, but each time i hit him he would claim I wasn't "hitting him correctly" and try to show me the proper way. 

I didn't know there was an improper way to stab someone through the neck.


----------



## Dirty Dog

kempodisciple said:


> I never got that, considering most people can demolish me with rolling.
> 
> A couple weeks ago though, a friend who practices HEMA was arguing with me that it's more practical than fencing. I won't argue with that part, but mentioned that fencing 2-3 hours a day 5 times a week probably gave me more weapon experience than his once a week/every other week of HEMA.
> He suggested a bout. I allowed him to pick the weapons we used (we were at his house), along with the rules. We sparred, and I was very clearly the victor, but each time i hit him he would claim I wasn't "hitting him correctly" and try to show me the proper way.
> 
> I didn't know there was an improper way to stab someone through the neck.



Umm.... what HEMA groups do *is* fencing...


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## Tired_Yeti

Dirty Dog said:


> ...maybe "black belt" means different things in different systems...


THIS!




"Re-stomp the groin"
Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Dirty Dog said:


> Umm.... what HEMA groups do *is* fencing...


Fairly certain that given context clues, my previous posts, or both, you're smart enough to figure out I was referring to olympic fencing...


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## KenpoDave

Dirty Dog said:


> I guess our system is either overly complex or we're overly strict. Oh well.
> Or maybe "black belt" means different things in different systems. If you want one that you can get in four years, there are plenty out there. If you want one you can get in a year, there are plenty out there. There are even plenty that you can get just about as fast as your check can clear.



It took you 2 years, right?


----------



## Kickboxer101

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I have had that.
> 
> The funniest is rolling with a guy and demolishing him. And then getting a critique on how you could have done it better.
> 
> Which happens a bit.


Hey there's always something to learn there could be something that someone sees where you could've demolished him even easier


----------



## Twin Fist

Kajukenbo.

period


----------



## Touch Of Death

Twin Fist said:


> Kajukenbo.
> 
> period


My first instinct is to disagree with you, but then I remembered that was my answer too.


----------



## Tames D

Twin Fist said:


> Kajukenbo.
> 
> period


John Bishop would agree with you.


----------



## drop bear

kempodisciple said:


> I never got that, considering most people can demolish me with rolling.
> 
> A couple weeks ago though, a friend who practices HEMA was arguing with me that it's more practical than fencing. I won't argue with that part, but mentioned that fencing 2-3 hours a day 5 times a week probably gave me more weapon experience than his once a week/every other week of HEMA.
> He suggested a bout. I allowed him to pick the weapons we used (we were at his house), along with the rules. We sparred, and I was very clearly the victor, but each time i hit him he would claim I wasn't "hitting him correctly" and try to show me the proper way.
> 
> I didn't know there was an improper way to stab someone through the neck.



Man attacking wrong is a major issue in a martial arts school.


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## Twin Fist

double post


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## Twin Fist

Touch Of Death said:


> My first instinct is to disagree with you, but then I remembered that was my answer too.


even a busted watch is right, twice a day


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## JR 137

Steve said:


> I do know what sarcasm is.  I also understand irony.  For example, it is ironic that you missed the sarcasm in my previous post.





Twin Fist said:


> even a busted watch is right, twice a day



That's usually my line.  I've waited for someone to counter it, but it hasn't happened, so I guess I will...

It's not right twice a day if it's digital or it has an AM/PM symbol of some sort.


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