# Self-defense FOR one's dog



## Flea (Apr 30, 2009)

I've seen a few threads at MT about SD _against_ dogs, but what about protecting our beloved pets?

In my daily meanderings in my neighborhood, I'm usually accompanied by my dog, an arthritic 8yo retired medical service animal.  Since his retirement he's gotten a bit vocal, but he has impeccable manners and temperament.  I know from experience that he will not come to my defense in any altercation, and as such I'm more afraid for _his_ safety than my own if it ever came to that.

In my Systema class every so often I try to brainstorm what movements would be safe for him in his over-the-shoulder leash, and I come up blank every time.  I still carry my pepper spray as a visual deterrent but I'd really hesitate to use it on the chance of spraying either one of us. (I may soon switch to a taser.)

How do other people approach this?  Any suggestions?


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## MA-Caver (Apr 30, 2009)

Whilst nobler in the mind to protect your beloved pet... It all depends upon the size of the dog, no? Never mind the Roosevelt size of the dog in the fight the size of the fight in the dog line... a small poodle isn't going to defend itself well against a pissed off Pit Bull. 

Honestly... I have no ideas really.


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## elder999 (Apr 30, 2009)

Flea said:


> How do other people approach this? Any suggestions?


 
.45 to the head works very well on dogs. Maybe not so good on black bears, so I usually  carry the .10mm.

That'll do the job-dog, bear or mountain lion-more worried about the last two than most dogs, though......


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## chinto (May 1, 2009)

elder999 said:


> .45 to the head works very well on dogs. Maybe not so good on black bears, so I usually  carry the .10mm.
> 
> That'll do the job-dog, bear or mountain lion-more worried about the last two than most dogs, though......




I have to differ with you. if i have to shoot any thing lethally that is a deadly threat with a pistol, it will be with a .45.


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## Thesemindz (May 1, 2009)

elder999 said:


> .45 to the head works very well on dogs. Maybe not so good on black bears, so I usually carry the .10mm.
> 
> That'll do the job-dog, bear or mountain lion-more worried about the last two than most dogs, though......


 
I think the question is how to defend the dog, not how to defend _against_ the dog.

As to that, I don't have an answer. I've thought about it, and I think my dog would be on her own. I hope she does well, and I'd be sad if she was hurt or worse, but I'm not sure there's any way I could do anything for her, other than eliminate the threat as quickly as possible.


-Rob


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## Flea (May 1, 2009)

> I think the question is how to defend the dog, not how to defend _against_ the dog.



Thank you.

The best I've come up with so far is his intelligence.  I lost him once several blocks from home, and after an hour and a half of panicked searching I came home to find him sitting placidly on my doorstep.

The main challenge is this: http://tiny.cc/WsEzE *http://tinyurl.com/d7u2xj

*I tried to find an image showing it in use, but 3 Google searches of 4 pages each came up empty.  (I don't know why that would be so hard!  I digress.)  It's very simple.  You sling the leash over your right shoulder, Fido walks on your left.  You have both hands free, and if Fido pulls, you get dragged by your whole torso rather than having your arm ripped off.  I _love_ the thing.

It would be a HUGE liability in a confrontation though - that 10 seconds of twisting our of the leash would require me to twist my torso and sacrifice forward vision and eye contact.So that's part of my dilemma.

http://tiny.cc/WsEzE http://tiny.cc/WsEzE http://tiny.cc/WsEzE


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## elder999 (May 1, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I think the question is how to defend the dog, not how to defend _against_ the dog.
> 
> As to that, I don't have an answer. -Rob


 

I *did*. If a bear or mountain lion attacks one of my dogs, I'm going to _shoot_ them with the pistol. 

I think most dogs wouldn't have much chance against my dogs, though I'd likely do the same. 

I think an unarmed man would probably rather be shot than deal with the dogs, so that's not an issue.

Maybe she wasn't clear about what she's defending the dog _against, and maybe my answer could have used some clarifying,_ but the likelihood of her dog being attacked by a person is probably pretty slim, don't you think? Of course, the likelihood of her being attacked while *with* her dog is another story, and my answer still might be the same....



			
				chinto said:
			
		

> I have to differ with you. if i have to shoot any thing lethally that is a deadly threat with a pistol, it will be with a .45.


 
Ooh. Differ with me, that's okay. I'm real fond of the .45, but it's not going to make the bear _lie down_ like the 10mm. Please note that I didn't say 9mm, I said 10mm, which is really the only reliably viable auto round against bears. Of course, the very reasons why it out performs the .45 are what makes it a difficult round for some-higher chamber pressure does mean higher recoil, but the wife and I shoot them a lot, both have fairly big hands, and can handle it well. 

Keep your .45, whatever makes you happy, man....


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## Bill Mattocks (May 1, 2009)

The problem with defending a dog (or a person) is to get them to stay where they are or take cover whilst you do what you do.  People and animals have a maddening tendency to get underfoot whilst deviltry is upon them.


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## elder999 (May 1, 2009)

Flea said:


> .
> 
> The main challenge is this: *http://tinyurl.com/d7u2xj*
> 
> I tried to find an image showing it in use, but 3 Google searches of 4 pages each came up empty. (I don't know why that would be so hard! I digress.) It's very simple. You sling the leash over your right shoulder, Fido walks on your left. You have both hands free, and if Fido pulls, you get dragged by your whole torso rather than having your arm ripped off. I _love_ the thing.


 

Don't use it, then. Get a halter, and teach the dog to walk with a loose leash; your dog shouldn't pull when you walk, especially an 8 year old dog with arthritis. Then get a leash with a quick disconnect that you can wear on your belt, if constantly having your hands free is an issue, or use a conventional leash but teach the dog to sit when you drop it.


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## Guardian (May 1, 2009)

Flea said:


> I've seen a few threads at MT about SD _against_ dogs, but what about protecting our beloved pets?
> 
> In my daily meanderings in my neighborhood, I'm usually accompanied by my dog, an arthritic 8yo retired medical service animal. Since his retirement he's gotten a bit vocal, but he has impeccable manners and temperament. I know from experience that he will not come to my defense in any altercation, and as such I'm more afraid for _his_ safety than my own if it ever came to that.
> 
> ...


 
What I advocate to my community and citizens is that keep the spray, but gain a stick or better yet , cut off the end of a broom handle off about 2 feet of it and carry it with, light metal or wood, both light enough, but sturdy enough.  It's a longer (visual) deterent to any other dog that may want to visit you and your dog on your walks.  I carry one on my walks with my dog, never failed me yet.  Most dogs don't like long visual deterents at all and it's the cheapest way to do it.

As stated, teach your dog not to tug you along, it won't take you long to teach him/her to walk with you, not forceably lead you.  If approached by another dog or one heads your way, shorten that leash up till you have complete control of your animal and you can defend yourself and your animal without any interference from yours or very little, not enough to matter in your actions.

Now if there is more then one dog or the situation just gets out of hand, release your dog and you can freely administer corrective knowledge to the other dog(s) at free will.  There are just some situations where you might just have to let the dog fend for itself until you can aide it, both of you getting injured will do no good.

Time for work, I'll revisit this tonight.


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## Flea (May 1, 2009)

> Maybe she wasn't clear about what she's defending the dog _against,_


You're absolutely right.  I'm worried about the safety of my dog if someone were to attack _me,_ and I had to defend myself.  When I'm out and about I almost always have my dog with me so it's critical for me to be able to factor him into any SD scenario.

There is another hands-free leash design that's worn like a belt, maybe I should look into that.  In my experience it's virtually impossible to get a dog not to pull at some point.  He's extremely good about it overall, but no dog can resist the occasional squirrel.  For deeply personal reasons, I refuse to get a gun (not saying this to initiate an pro/anti gun conversation, it's just my personal choice.)

I also ran this by my dog's trainer, who has a TKD brown belt, and he came up empty too.  I don't think there's any good answer to this question either, but I felt it was worthwhile to run it up the flagpole.  The funny thing is that at 60 pounds he has an intimidation factor simply by being there.  Never mind that everyone has seen him walking around in a service vest in the grocery store and on the bus, he's _dangerous_ because he's a dog.  :lfao:


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## theletch1 (May 1, 2009)

Elder doesn't have dogs... he's has dragons with fur.


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## elder999 (May 1, 2009)

theletch1 said:


> Elder doesn't have dogs... he's has dragons with fur.


 

****kin' a right*. :lol:

"Furry dragons," think I'll keep that....:lfao:


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## Carol (May 1, 2009)

Flea said:
			
		

> I'm more afraid for _his_ safety than my own if it ever came to that.




In case of cabin depressurization, the oxygen masks will fall from the ceiling. Pull down on the mask to activate the flow of oxygen. Place your own mask on before assisting anyone else.

One can do nothing to help a loved one - be it a pet, child, relative, friend, or lover - when one becomes incapacitated.  

Protect yourself first.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 1, 2009)

I am unsure if it is protecting Dog against Dog or Dog against human.

I always carried a big stick when I walked the Dog. It is hard to break the Dogs up when they are fighting you run the risk of getting bit in the process. However there are safer ways to do so.

http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

I have seen hose water sprayed on Dogs work too.

If the dog is on a leash try to keep the leash short and put yourself between the dog and its attacker. Using a big stick,taser what ever may be enough to protect you and the dog from attack.


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## teekin (May 1, 2009)

Elder, you own the Fila's yes? You know Flea, this is what you need. A Fila puppy. A nice sturdy female Fila puppy, they are awful loyal to their owners, an can be a wee bit protective too. I don't think you'd need a gun or stick on your walks.
lori


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## elder999 (May 1, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> Elder, you own the Fila's yes? You know Flea, this is what you need. A Fila puppy. A nice sturdy female Fila puppy, they are awful loyal to their owners, *an can be a wee bit protective too*. I don't think you'd need a gun or stick on your walks.
> lori


 
This is a really big understatement. Filas aren't for everyone. When I siad that someone would rather be shot than have my dogs at him, I *meant* it. It's also not the best dog to have in an urban area, 'cause they just don't like "strangers," and are very territorial....

A hard-temprament  Fila could potentially literally *eat* someone protecting its owner.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 1, 2009)

Flea said:


> I've seen a few threads at MT about SD _against_ dogs, but what about protecting our beloved pets?
> 
> In my daily meanderings in my neighborhood, I'm usually accompanied by my dog, an arthritic 8yo retired medical service animal.  Since his retirement he's gotten a bit vocal, but he has impeccable manners and temperament.  I know from experience that he will not come to my defense in any altercation, and as such I'm more afraid for _his_ safety than my own if it ever came to that.
> 
> ...



The BEST self-defense for your animal is Obedience training, Obedience training, Obedience training........the biggest threat to dogs on a leash is suddenly finding themselves off a leash and the owner having no verbal control over them.

The absolute best self-defense skill your dog can master is being able to be put on a VERBAL DOWN command, and remain there for 5 or 10 minutes, EVEN with you not in sight.  That means that you'll be able to order a down and be sure your dog will stay put while you take care of whatever business as necessary........and that INCLUDES obeying the down command when approached by another dog or seeing a cat or other fleeing animal!


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## girlbug2 (May 1, 2009)

Sgt, that sounds like great advice, I just don't know how I could possibly follow it myself!

I have a 2 and 1/2 year old Labrador. He's sweet and gentle but very headstrong. He is a continuous leash puller. I have taken him to obedience school to no avail. Their advice is always "give the leash slack and praise and offer treats when he isn't pulling, that will train him to walk next to you nicely." Horsepuckey!!

I don't know if this kind of stubbornness is common to labs or what -- he's my first. He and I go on a nice walk every day and I am constantly tugging him back to my side, then for a second he'll walk along tamely but before I know it he's edged out front again to pull me on. Very frustrating. 

He also doesn't appear to hear me when he's very interested in something else. So in an emergency situation, I'm sure he'd completely ignore any command, be it Down or Come or whatever.

Oh well, sorry to vent, I agree it would be splendid to have him so well trained as you describe...at my wits end on this one though.


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## blindsage (May 1, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> Sgt, that sounds like great advice, I just don't know how I could possibly follow it myself!
> 
> I have a 2 and 1/2 year old Labrador. He's sweet and gentle but very headstrong. He is a continuous leash puller. I have taken him to obedience school to no avail. Their advice is always "give the leash slack and praise and offer treats when he isn't pulling, that will train him to walk next to you nicely." Horsepuckey!!
> 
> ...


Go to this guy's website


JadecloudAlchemist said:


> http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm


Read, watch some videos, probably need to buy a DVD or 2 (or 3).  I'm pretty sure you are not the pack leader.


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## BLACK LION (May 1, 2009)

Flea said:


> I've seen a few threads at MT about SD _against_ dogs, but what about protecting our beloved pets?
> 
> In my daily meanderings in my neighborhood, I'm usually accompanied by my dog, an arthritic 8yo retired medical service animal. Since his retirement he's gotten a bit vocal, but he has impeccable manners and temperament. I know from experience that he will not come to my defense in any altercation, and as such I'm more afraid for _his_ safety than my own if it ever came to that.
> 
> ...


 
I have had a few occassions in which I either had to come to my own dogs rescue or a dog of another owner. 

1 thing remains true... you ARE the bigger animal... I have deterred dogs with bright flashlights(night) ... I have deterred them by advancing with my arms out and yelling or growling very loud..  I saved a dog from certain death by grabbing the attacking dogs trachea/esophagus and the base of its skull simultaneously... it could not breathe or swallow so it became more docile after dropping the other dog...    If you have to put hands on the dog I recommed the throat becuase most animals understand what that means.     I am not an advocate for pepper sprak but a 1million volt taser may work wonders.


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## K-man (May 1, 2009)

In one of my other lives, my wife and I are dog obedience instructors, train dogs (German Shepherds) and trial them in obedience. 

From sgtmac:


> The BEST self-defense for your animal is Obedience training, Obedience training, Obedience training........the biggest threat to dogs on a leash is suddenly finding themselves off a leash and the owner having no verbal control over them.
> 
> The absolute best self-defense skill your dog can master is being able to be put on a VERBAL DOWN command, and remain there for 5 or 10 minutes, EVEN with you not in sight. That means that you'll be able to order a down and be sure your dog will stay put while you take care of whatever business as necessary........and that INCLUDES obeying the down command when approached by another dog or seeing a cat or other fleeing animal!


Great advice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





However even the best trained dogs can lose it if a cat or a rabbit get too close. We use head harnesses or shoulder harnesses if we are running the dogs beside our bikes. (This is to protect us, not the dogs. ) The products we use are similar to the ones shown here : http://www.petshop-online.com.au/category77_1.htm
The main difference with the head halter is that our one pulls from behind the neck and keeps the neck straight. The 'Halti' type pull the head down and to the side.
These products don't hurt the dog but because they don't like the restriction created when they pull, they soon learn to keep the lead loose.


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## kaizasosei (May 2, 2009)

Give them lots of love.  Teach them good body dynamics and always respect their position(as well as hold your own). Don't use much force especially not physical force. Dogs have a sense of justice.  Play with them playful critters using various scenarios and you can teach them whatever you like.


j


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## sgtmac_46 (May 2, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> Sgt, that sounds like great advice, I just don't know how I could possibly follow it myself!
> 
> I have a 2 and 1/2 year old Labrador. He's sweet and gentle but very headstrong. He is a continuous leash puller. I have taken him to obedience school to no avail. Their advice is always "give the leash slack and praise and offer treats when he isn't pulling, that will train him to walk next to you nicely." Horsepuckey!!
> 
> ...



Pinch collar properly applied........don't listen to the 'Purely Positive' crowd.....they usually have their success with dogs that are low-prey drive/high food drive dogs........Labs are high prey drive dogs, and that's what you're experiencing.

There is an art to using the pinch collar (not the choke collar).........when walking the dog, when he decides he wants to bolt ahead, a quick correction is given with a firm 'No'.....not yelled, but in an even voice........the correction has to be at the right level.........and each dog is different.  Hard enough to make him immediately look at you after the correction, but not so hard that he cowers.......it's what some trainers call the 'Ouch' correction.

Once you know where his level of 'Ouch' is.......and Labs are actually pretty tough dogs as a group........you correct when he tries to pull away.

Here's a pretty good article from Ed Frawley....... http://leerburg.com/philosophy.htm

I agree with Frawley, that the ideal dog training involves both rewards and correction.........and he points out quite well that dog training involves three phases.........

1) Learning phase....the dog has to know what you want from him.
2) Correction phase....the dog learns he must do what you want or be corrected
3) Distraction phase....the dog learns he must do what you want, even when faced with serious distraction, such as dogs, other animals, etc.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 2, 2009)

K-man said:


> In one of my other lives, my wife and I are dog obedience instructors, train dogs (German Shepherds) and trial them in obedience.
> 
> From sgtmac:
> 
> ...



The best advice is to know your dog......and a high prey drive dog will always want to pursue fleeing objects.  

I've owned and trained GSD's and Belgian Malinois, and there's nothing more annoying than watching your 9 month old Malinois launch like a rocket for 6 blocks chasing some stray cat!


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## Flea (May 2, 2009)

Personally I'm on the "positive methods" side myself.  It's worked better than anything else I've tried with my dog.  The most hard-line I get with him is turn my back on him _most_ emphatically when he gets into that self-reinforcing barking loop.  He stops instantly, and I instantly turn around with lots of praise.  I find that when I get punitive he gets resentful, and it's a stalemate that's no fun for either of us.

Naturally, every dog (like every human!) is unique.  That's part of the fun, figuring out what works  best for any individual.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 2, 2009)

Flea said:


> Personally I'm on the "positive methods" side myself.  It's worked better than anything else I've tried with my dog.  The most hard-line I get with him is turn my back on him _most_ emphatically when he gets into that self-reinforcing barking loop.  He stops instantly, and I instantly turn around with lots of praise.  I find that when I get punitive he gets resentful, and it's a stalemate that's no fun for either of us.
> 
> Naturally, every dog (like every human!) is unique.  That's part of the fun, figuring out what works  best for any individual.



I've found striking a good balance between reward based training and correction to be ideal......that balance point is different with different dogs.  

Some dogs are very soft temperament dogs, who are so eager to please that all they require to do what they are supposed to is enthusiastic praise.......on the other end of the spectrum are hard dogs with high prey drive who will, if given the opportunity, destroy everything you own and drag you 7 blocks chasing a cat......

As you rightly point out, part of the fun is finding what works for each individual dog.......and where positive motivation works, it should be used.  Some people, however, fail to realize that correction has a necessary role in dog training.  Those who insist on purely positive methods only end up wondering why their dog bolts across the parking lot under intense distraction.


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## teekin (May 2, 2009)

Elder, the woman in the area that runs the pittie rescue Breeds Fila's. I don't mind working with the pitties but keep far far away from her Fila's. I still think Flea needs a female Fila and a few training sessions with Cesar Millan. I bet a whole whack of the anxiety issues that plauge her would evaporate.
lori


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## K-man (May 3, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Pinch collar properly applied........don't listen to the 'Purely Positive' crowd.....they usually have their success with dogs that are low-prey drive/high food drive dogs........Labs are high prey drive dogs, and that's what you're experiencing.
> 
> There is an art to using the pinch collar (not the choke collar).........when walking the dog, when he decides he wants to bolt ahead, a quick correction is given with a firm 'No'.....not yelled, but in an even voice........the correction has to be at the right level.........and each dog is different. Hard enough to make him immediately look at you after the correction, but not so hard that he cowers.......it's what some trainers call the 'Ouch' correction.
> 
> ...


The OP containes this para: 





> In my daily meanderings in my neighborhood, I'm usually accompanied by my *dog*, an arthritic 8yo retired medical service animal. Since his retirement he's gotten a bit vocal, but he has impeccable manners and temperament. I know from experience that he will not come to my defense in any altercation, and as such I'm more afraid for _his_ safety than my own if it ever came to that.


This is an 8 yo arthritic dog. I am assuming that the 'pinch' collar you speak of is the 'prong' collar that he is suggesting. To suggest a prong collar in this situation is totally inappropriate. For the record prong collars are banned in Australia. That is like using a cattle prod on your 70 yr old grandmother for stopping to look in a shop window while walking with you because you didn't want to stop.
Frawley only recommends prong collars as a last resort if your level 5 correction, using a normal collar, is having no effect.
The Frawley article quoted is a fantastic article. But you have selectively quoted what he says so that it does not represent the article. 
He says:





> There is a big difference between using force to train a dog and using correction in your training. This article you confirm that I am not a fan of forced training. But with this said, you will also learn that to ignore corrections during training or to use the wrong correction at the wrong time can actually set your training back and possibly destroy the bond between you and your dog.


The halter collar I recommended is not the same as the one Frawley criticised. I would never recommend those either. They pull the dogs head down and to the side. The good ones apply pressure to the muzzle, without turning the head, by directing the pull from the back of the neck.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 3, 2009)

K-man said:


> The OP containes this para: This is an 8 yo arthritic dog. I am assuming that the 'pinch' collar you speak of is the 'prong' collar that he is suggesting. To suggest a prong collar in this situation is totally inappropriate. For the record prong collars are banned in Australia. That is like using a cattle prod on your 70 yr old grandmother for stopping to look in a shop window while walking with you because you didn't want to stop.


 First of all, what Australia bans is entirely irrelevant......stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where you go........and Australia already has plenty of those.

Second of all, the prong collar suggestion was for the young high drive LAB, not the original op.........read it again. 

Third, your attempt at anthropomorphism, i.e. comparing a pack animal, like, to grandma illustrates everything we need to know. 




K-man said:


> Frawley only recommends prong collars as a last resort if your level 5 correction, using a normal collar, is having no effect.
> The Frawley article quoted is a fantastic article. But you have selectively quoted what he says so that it does not represent the article.
> He says:
> The halter collar I recommended is not the same as the one Frawley criticised. I would never recommend those either. They pull the dogs head down and to the side. The good ones apply pressure to the muzzle, without turning the head, by directing the pull from the back of the neck.


 I didn't selective quote anything......I provided a LINK to the article.  I didn't even quote Frawley....period.  



sgtmac_46 said:


> I've found striking a good balance between reward based training and correction to be ideal......that balance point is different with different dogs.
> 
> Some dogs are very soft temperament dogs, who are so eager to please that all they require to do what they are supposed to is enthusiastic praise.......on the other end of the spectrum are hard dogs with high prey drive who will, if given the opportunity, destroy everything you own and drag you 7 blocks chasing a cat......
> 
> As you rightly point out, part of the fun is finding what works for each individual dog.......and where positive motivation works, it should be used. Some people, however, fail to realize that correction has a necessary role in dog training. Those who insist on purely positive methods only end up wondering why their dog bolts across the parking lot under intense distraction.



Before you take exception, trying reading what I actually said, not what you jumped to the conclusion I said.......as to the prong collar issue, again, HERE was the source of that, not your 8 year old arthritic strawman. 

Allow me to post it again for your edification. 


girlbug2 said:


> Sgt, that sounds like great advice, I just don't know how I could possibly follow it myself!
> 
> I have a 2 and 1/2 year old Labrador. He's sweet and gentle but very headstrong. He is a continuous leash puller. I have taken him to obedience school to no avail. Their advice is always "give the leash slack and praise and offer treats when he isn't pulling, that will train him to walk next to you nicely." Horsepuckey!!
> 
> ...



Context.....it's EVERYTHING! 



Sure, the purely positive crowd can whine all it wants........but it's not me with my dogs out of control, who can't stay on a down for 5 minutes, even with me out of sight, or that gets run over in traffic because they found themselves off leash.  The prong pinch collar is a valuable training tool for many dogs to whom hot dogs and clickers are an exercise in futility. 

Three phases of dog training........

1) Learning
2) Correction
3) Distraction

Repeating Phase 1 over and over again gets us only so far.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 3, 2009)

<Duplicate>


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## Flea (May 3, 2009)

> Sure, the purely positive crowd can whine all it wants........but it's not me with my dogs out of control, who can't stay on a down for 5 minutes, even with me out of sight, or that gets run over in traffic because they found themselves off leash.



I agree that different breeds would need varying levels of correction, but I'm more focused on keeping my own dog safe from crackheads. Overall I'm very pleased with his level of training; during his working days we were in a restaurant when a waiter dropped a tray near us and Fido caught a pork chop in mid-air. I held a hand under his chin and crooned "leave it;" he quietly went *ptooie* without a question, and resumed his nap under the table. Dog training doesn't get much better than that.

Sgtmac I appreciate your input, but I think we're veering a little too far off-topic.  The question at issue here is how (if at all?) one could keep one's pet safe while fighting off a human-on-human attack.

Since my own dog's retirement, I've only worked him on the regular pet-level commands like down, stay, leave it, etc.  His biggest vulnerability in a SD scenario would be his border-collie ancestry.  That herding compulsion could be an asset if his nips are mistaken as an "attack," but more than likely he'd just find himself trampled underfoot, poor booger.  I don't think there's enough down-stay work in the world that could overcome the herding instinct.  That's what worries me.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 3, 2009)

Flea said:


> I agree that different breeds would need varying levels of correction, but I'm more focused on keeping my own dog safe from crackheads. Overall I'm very pleased with his level of training; during his working days we were in a restaurant when a waiter dropped a tray near us and Fido caught a pork chop in mid-air. I held a hand under his chin and crooned "leave it;" he quietly went *ptooie* without a question, and resumed his nap under the table. Dog training doesn't get much better than that.
> 
> Sgtmac I appreciate your input, but I think we're veering a little too far off-topic.  The question at issue here is how (if at all?) one could keep one's pet safe while fighting off a human-on-human attack.
> 
> Since my own dog's retirement, I've only worked him on the regular pet-level commands like down, stay, leave it, etc.  His biggest vulnerability in a SD scenario would be his border-collie ancestry.  That herding compulsion could be an asset if his nips are mistaken as an "attack," but more than likely he'd just find himself trampled underfoot, poor booger.  I don't think there's enough down-stay work in the world that could overcome the herding instinct.  That's what worries me.




You could certainly overcome the instinct with a little work.  The reality is that in the scenario you describe, where you're worried about your dog getting in the fray and getting hurt, a good down command that keeps him out of the fray is the best defense.

That having been said, dogs are not people.......part of a dogs job is sometimes to sacrifice himself for the pack......if the dog nipping at someone attacking you gets him hurt, but prevents further harm from you, that's a noble sacrifice.......but I certainly understand your concern.

Perhaps I should predicate all my opinions on dog training with the understanding that the vast majority of my experience comes from training and working with police service dogs in tracking, detection and bite work.  That likely explains the difference between my opinion and many pet trainers......generally the dogs used for police service work are harder and higher drive.


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## K-man (May 3, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> First of all, what Australia bans is entirely irrelevant......stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where you go........and Australia already has plenty of those.
> 
> Second of all, the prong collar suggestion was for the young high drive LAB, not the original op.........read it again.
> 
> ...


 


> First of all, what Australia bans is entirely irrelevant......stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where you go........and Australia already has plenty of those.


I don't agree with all laws and I agree that some laws could be done better. The pinch collar law is not so stupid as it protects dogs from unnecessary pain inflicted by handlers, the majority of whom have not had adequate instruction as to the proper use of the collar. (We also have gun laws here that are a little different to yours. I am assuming you think they're stupid too!)


> Second of all, the prong collar suggestion was for the young high drive LAB, not the original op.........read it again.


I am sorry, I did misread the post. I still wouldn't be using a prong collar though.


> Third, your attempt at anthropomorphism, i.e. comparing a pack animal, like, to grandma illustrates everything we need to know.


Yeah, I thought it was a good analogy, even if slightly exagerated, however I was up tight at thinking that you had suggested the prong collar for Flea's dog. My mistake. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





> I didn't selective quote anything......I provided a LINK to the article. I didn't even quote Frawley....period.


Sorry I thought you were implying this was from Frawley, which it obiously wasn't: "Pinch collar properly applied........don't listen to the 'Purely Positive' crowd.....they usually have their success with dogs that are low-prey drive/high food drive dogs........Labs are high prey drive dogs, and that's what you're experiencing."
Having said that, in another post you said: 





> I've found striking a good balance between reward based training and correction to be ideal......that balance point is different with different dogs.
> 
> Some dogs are very soft temperament dogs, who are so eager to please that all they require to do what they are supposed to is enthusiastic praise.......on the other end of the spectrum are hard dogs with high prey drive who will, if given the opportunity, destroy everything you own and drag you 7 blocks chasing a cat......
> 
> As you rightly point out, part of the fun is finding what works for each individual *dog*.......and where positive motivation works, it should be used. Some people, however, fail to realize that correction has a necessary role in *dog* training. Those who insist on purely positive methods only end up wondering why their *dog* bolts across the parking lot under intense distraction.


 To this I agree 100%.
I just got messed up with the two dogs. :asian:


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## sgtmac_46 (May 4, 2009)

K-man said:


> I just got messed up with the two dogs. :asian:


 Fair enough......if I don't make at least one little mistake a day I start getting cocky and make a BIG mistake the next day! :mst:


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## Guardian (May 7, 2009)

I apologize all the way around, I skimmed the question and though you were talking about your dog being attacked by another dog, that's what I get for skim reading.


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## Flea (May 7, 2009)

That's all right.  I'm into positive reinforcement, so I'll give you a biscuit anyway.  :uhyeah:


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