# wing chun vs Karake



## kung fu fighter (Dec 6, 2014)

- VS 1


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## K-man (Dec 6, 2014)

Not sure what point you're trying to make. Obviously neither of them knew what to do once they hit the floor.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 6, 2014)

Not this **** again...


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## Danny T (Dec 6, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> - VS 1


???
Ok an intermediately trained wc person sparring vs. a karate trained person with a black belt around his waist. The wc person complaining about something after the ground encounter and the karate coach/instructor fussing back.
???


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## Tez3 (Dec 6, 2014)

I couldn't get it to play.


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## donald1 (Dec 6, 2014)

what kind of karate?


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## zuti car (Dec 6, 2014)

WC


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## yak sao (Dec 6, 2014)

Oh...I thought it said karaoke.
I was getting ready to bust in to my rendition of _Everybody wang chun tonight_!


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## Tames D (Dec 6, 2014)

The black belt karate guy had no skills. Pretty pathetic.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 6, 2014)

Tames D said:


> The black belt karate guy had no skills. Pretty pathetic.



The video won't load for me but if this is the one I'm thinking of, the karate guy looks more like he's attempting to kickbox than actually use his style.

Then both of them go to the ground and it turns into a schoolyard scrap.


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## KPM (Dec 6, 2014)

It would load, but it wouldn't play.  All I got was a goofy blue smiley face.  Do you have to be a subscriber?  There was no "play" icon to click on.


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## K-man (Dec 7, 2014)

KPM said:


> It would load, but it wouldn't play.  All I got was a goofy blue smiley face.  Do you have to be a subscriber?  There was no "play" icon to click on.


Played all right for me but in all honesty, you didn't miss anything.


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## Hanzou (Dec 7, 2014)

Too bad neither knew what to do once their little duel hit the pavement. If either one had some Bjj training, or training in some other grappling art, they would have wrapped that up pretty quickly. Unfortunately, we ended up with that mess while standing up, and a mess on the ground.


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## K-man (Dec 7, 2014)

Which brings us back to the question of why people post videos on YouTube that show their Martial art in poor light.


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## drop bear (Dec 7, 2014)

K-man said:


> Which brings us back to the question of why people post videos on YouTube that show their Martial art in poor light.



real boats rock?


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## KPM (Dec 7, 2014)

Tames D said:


> The black belt karate guy had no skills. Pretty pathetic.



It still doesn't play.  I click the link and get the video window with the blue smiley.  This time I waited until it had downloaded completely expecting it to start playing automatically.  Nothing.

But, going by the thumb-nail previews at the side of the screen, I have seen this video before.  I'm probably not the best judge of what is "pathetic" Karate compared to what isn't, but consider this.  The guy is wearing a Black Belt.  Someone showed up at his school essentially challenging them to a fight/spar.  It was being video taped for all to see.  Don't you think the leader of the Karate group would have put his best guy out there to represent them?  So if this guy is truly pathetic as you say, then their whole Karate school must really suck!   I think the Wing Chun guy put on a good showing here, and when he similarly took on a Thai Boxer in another clip.  Yeah, they didn't really know what to do on the ground, but his Wing Chun was pretty good.  Maybe that's why the Karate guy was made to look "pathetic"?


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2014)

Are we turning into the site that nobody mentions with videos being posted up showing how bad other people are? with the add on of course being how good we are?


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## Buka (Dec 7, 2014)

The vid played for me, but kept stopping every ten seconds while the little ball spinned.

I wish I knew the background to the whole thing, just for curiosity sake.
Kind of fun to watch, though.


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## Hanzou (Dec 7, 2014)

KPM said:


> It still doesn't play.  I click the link and get the video window with the blue smiley.  This time I waited until it had downloaded completely expecting it to start playing automatically.  Nothing.
> 
> But, going by the thumb-nail previews at the side of the screen, I have seen this video before.  I'm probably not the best judge of what is "pathetic" Karate compared to what isn't, but consider this.  The guy is wearing a Black Belt.  Someone showed up at his school essentially challenging them to a fight/spar.  It was being video taped for all to see.  Don't you think the leader of the Karate group would have put his best guy out there to represent them?  So if this guy is truly pathetic as you say, then their whole Karate school must really suck!   I think the Wing Chun guy put on a good showing here, and when he similarly took on a Thai Boxer in another clip.  Yeah, they didn't really know what to do on the ground, but his Wing Chun was pretty good.  Maybe that's why the Karate guy was made to look "pathetic"?



Yeah, that WC guy goes around and fights trained people to show how good WC is. I'd like to see him go against a Bjj blackbelt, just to see how he would utilize WC to respond to a dominant grapple and ground game.


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## Tames D (Dec 7, 2014)

KPM said:


> It still doesn't play.  I click the link and get the video window with the blue smiley.  This time I waited until it had downloaded completely expecting it to start playing automatically.  Nothing.
> 
> But, going by the thumb-nail previews at the side of the screen, I have seen this video before.  I'm probably not the best judge of what is "pathetic" Karate compared to what isn't, but consider this.  The guy is wearing a Black Belt.  Someone showed up at his school essentially challenging them to a fight/spar.  It was being video taped for all to see.  Don't you think the leader of the Karate group would have put his best guy out there to represent them?  So if this guy is truly pathetic as you say, then their whole Karate school must really suck!   I think the Wing Chun guy put on a good showing here, and when he similarly took on a Thai Boxer in another clip.  Yeah, they didn't really know what to do on the ground, but his Wing Chun was pretty good.  Maybe that's why the Karate guy was made to look "pathetic"?



Just to be clear, It was my opinion that the Karate "fighter" was pathetic.Others might disagree, Ilike the gentleman that disliked my comment. And that's ok. We all have our own idea of what good fighting is, and mine is obviously different from his.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 7, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, that WC guy goes around and fights trained people to show how good WC is. I'd like to see him go against a Bjj blackbelt, just to see how he would utilize WC to respond to a dominant grapple and ground game.



A striking focused art isn't gonna do well on the ground? Aren't you insightful!

Next thing you know, my hammer won't be able to screw a nut onto a bolt!


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## Hanzou (Dec 7, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> A striking focused art isn't gonna do well on the ground? Aren't you insightful!
> 
> Next thing you know, my hammer won't be able to screw a nut onto a bolt!



Where did I say that WC wouldn't do well?


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## donald1 (Dec 7, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that WC wouldn't do well?


im not picking sides but the spot he quoted you on is on first page of this thread


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## geezer (Dec 7, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, that WC guy goes around and fights trained people to show how good WC is. I'd like to see him go against a Bjj blackbelt, just to see how he would utilize WC to respond to a dominant grapple and ground game.


 
I have no clue who these guys are, but the WC guy puts on a faily good show against a "karate guy" who just fights like a brawler. Neither have devloped ground skills, so even though the WC guy maintained dominance, it would be a fair guess to say that _neither could hold up on the ground against a Judoka , BJJ guy or other solid grappler. _So what of it?

Best to take this just as light entertainment. Two amateur strikers challenging each other. No big message. I'd give them both kudos for the willingness to scrap, though.


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## Danny T (Dec 7, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Too bad neither knew what to do once their little duel hit the pavement. If either one had some Bjj training, or training in some other grappling art, they would have wrapped that up pretty quickly. Unfortunately, we ended up with that mess while standing up, and a mess on the ground.


True.
And if both had equal training in Bjj or some other grappling art they may have stayed wrapped up for quite some time. Means nothing. Have witnessed worse performances in the many mma venues I've been to. Both on the striking side and the ground side.


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## Danny T (Dec 7, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that WC wouldn't do well?


Let's look at this again. What Marnetmar wrote: 
"A striking focused art isn't gonna do well on the ground? Aren't you insightful!
Next thing you know, my hammer won't be able to screw a nut onto a bolt!"

I don't see WC in here at all. I would have further defined with; "an art focused only on striking isn't going to well on the ground." I believe Marnetmar was being a bit facetious with the question though. No worse than some of the things others, myself as well, have done.


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## KPM (Dec 7, 2014)

Tames D said:


> Just to be clear, It was my opinion that the Karate "fighter" was pathetic.Others might disagree, Ilike the gentleman that disliked my comment. And that's ok. We all have our own idea of what good fighting is, and mine is obviously different from his.



I'm not saying the Karate guy wasn't pathetic!  I'm just saying that begs the question of why they put him out there to be videotaped.  If he was the best they had to offer........


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## Hanzou (Dec 8, 2014)

KPM said:


> I'm not saying the Karate guy wasn't pathetic!  I'm just saying that begs the question of why they put him out there to be videotaped.  If he was the best they had to offer........



Because their school was pathetic? 

Of course its all relative. Maybe the WC guy is just so good that he makes the Karate guy look worse than what he is?


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 8, 2014)

They actually have a whole series of videos from the event showing different matchups between students from the two schools. (I'm assuming it was just one WC school and one karate school, not a general WC vs karate gathering.) In some of the matches the karate guy does better than in this one.

I'm still puzzled by the one match where the WC practitioner left his glasses on while sparring.


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## Danny T (Dec 8, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> They actually have a whole series of videos from the event showing different matchups between students from the two schools. (I'm assuming it was just one WC school and one karate school, not a general WC vs karate gathering.) In some of the matches the karate guy does better than in this one.


Thanks Tony, I was going to post along the same lines. 
Again it all goes to the context of what the videos are about. In the video above I don't believe it was a this is our best against their best. It was several one on one participants doing some heavy sparring. The karate individuals performed better in some and the wc individuals in others. Don't read more into it than that. No different than having a open sparring session or a smoker event at your school/gym and videoing it.


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## drop bear (Dec 8, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, that WC guy goes around and fights trained people to show how good WC is. I'd like to see him go against a Bjj blackbelt, just to see how he would utilize WC to respond to a dominant grapple and ground game.



well he could just do a mma comp and get exactly that.

he has some go in him though. Probably do all right.


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## yak sao (Dec 8, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm still puzzled by the one match where the WC practitioner left his glasses on while sparring.


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## drop bear (Dec 8, 2014)

geezer said:


> I have no clue who these guys are, but the WC guy puts on a faily good show against a "karate guy" who just fights like a brawler. Neither have devloped ground skills, so even though the WC guy maintained dominance, it would be a fair guess to say that _neither could hold up on the ground against a Judoka , BJJ guy or other solid grappler. _So what of it?
> 
> Best to take this just as light entertainment. Two amateur strikers challenging each other. No big message. I'd give them both kudos for the willingness to scrap, though.



isn't it izzo who says he wouldn't be taken down in the first place. Because the anti grapple.

so it should still be a real match.


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## KPM (Dec 8, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Thanks Tony, I was going to post along the same lines.
> Again it all goes to the context of what the videos are about. In the video above I don't believe it was a this is our best against their best. It was several one on one participants doing some heavy sparring. The karate individuals performed better in some and the wc individuals in others. Don't read more into it than that. No different than having a open sparring session or a smoker event at your school/gym and videoing it.



Good point!  I didn't realize that.  I had seen several videos that was the same Wing Chun guy sparring a couple of Karate guys and a Muay Thai fighter.  The assumption was that this Wing Chun  guy was going around "trying out" some of the other local schools.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> isn't it izzo who says he wouldn't be taken down in the first place. Because the anti grapple.
> 
> so it should still be a real match.



The term anti-grapple annoys me. Defending against a takedown doesn't make it not grappling.

Just my two cents though.


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## Danny T (Dec 9, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> The term anti-grapple annoys me. Defending against a takedown doesn't make it not grappling.
> 
> Just my two cents though.


Then again good footwork could do it and how would that be construed?


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## kynir (Dec 10, 2014)

No art is better then the other, it all depends on the person and there knowledge,power,heart,spirit,and experience 


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## kynir (Dec 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Not sure what point you're trying to make. Obviously neither of them knew what to do once they hit the floor.



Really? What makes you so sure? Or is that your guess every human being is the same?
Or do you want to test you theory I wouldn't know what to do if you grapple me? Enlighten me


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## Hanzou (Dec 10, 2014)

kynir said:


> No art is better then the other, it all depends on the person and there knowledge,power,heart,spirit,and experience



While no art is better than another, different arts are better at certain things than other arts and vice versa.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Then again good footwork could do it and how would that be construed?



evasive footwork is a grappling term


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## K-man (Dec 11, 2014)

kynir said:


> Really? What makes you so sure? Or is that your guess every human being is the same?
> Or do you want to test you theory I wouldn't know what to do if you grapple me? Enlighten me
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well welcome to MT. Are you always so abrasive? In my opinion both fighters demonstrated little skill on their feet and even less when they hit the deck. I have no idea what you are talking about when you are writing about all human beings being the same and perhaps you could enlighten me as to what you mean by testing a theory.


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## kynir (Dec 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> While no art is better than another, different arts are better at certain things than other arts and vice versa.


Very true so never stop expanding your knowledge nor your art


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## kynir (Dec 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> Well welcome to MT. Are you always so abrasive? In my opinion both fighters demonstrated little skill on their feet and even less when they hit the deck. I have no idea what you are talking about when you are writing about all human beings being the same and perhaps you could enlighten me as to what you mean by testing a theory.


Thanks for the welcoming and no I'm actually quite humble and friendly and when I say human beings it's only meant for the category of the karate and wing chun man, excuse my miss interpretation, idk much about karate but my wing chun is different just like everyone's else's wing chun.I wouldn't brag but nor would I lie and say I'm not good I wouldn't recommend attacking my legs unless you wanted a broken back and rib cage or a broken nose but wrestling is also a fun exercise. Also by testing a theory I would love the chance for a friendly spar, but your quite far I'm guessing and not to say the least "talk is cheap"


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2014)

I imagine  though for the purposes of the video that 'opponents' would be carefully chosen either for their abilities or lack of them! There's always a reason people want to post up videos, in this case I imagine to extol the virtue of one style over another so certainly you wouldn't want a very good opponent to beat your chosen 'fighter' would you?


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## K-man (Dec 11, 2014)

kynir said:


> Thanks for the welcoming and no I'm actually quite humble and friendly and when I say human beings it's only meant for the category of the karate and wing chun man, excuse my miss interpretation, idk much about karate but my wing chun is different just like everyone's else's wing chun.I wouldn't brag but nor would I lie and say I'm not good I wouldn't recommend attacking my legs unless you wanted a broken back and rib cage or a broken nose but wrestling is also a fun exercise. Also by testing a theory I would love the chance for a friendly spar, but your quite far I'm guessing and not to say the least "talk is cheap"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cool! I suppose you could say I don't know a lot about WC. I'm not a fan of that type of sparring at any time. If I had to judge I would say the WC guy maintained his structure better than karate guy. I had an ex chunner as a student last year and I found his 'forward pressure' interesting. He had problems because as karateka we prefer to be off the centreline. But the truth is that neither system is designed for that type of fighting and neither system is designed to fight another trained person. I still maintain that when they hit the ground neither inspired me with their skill.

As to having a friendly wrestle, sure. Recently we had a barbecue for martial artists. I ended up on the lounge room floor with a bb karate mate who has been training BJJ for the past three years. I'm happy to have a friendly roll with anyone and I have no ego to defend on the ground. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't want to remain on the ground but I'm more than happy to play on the ground to work on escapes especially with people with expertise on the ground.


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## Hanzou (Dec 11, 2014)

kynir said:


> Really? What makes you so sure? Or is that your guess every human being is the same?



Not to butt in on Kman's behalf, but he is correct here. Their ground fighting ability was hilariously bad. For example, there was a pretty clear mount and submission opportunities for the WC guy and he completely missed them. The Karate guy had to literally fight to regain standing position against a WC guy who was barely holding him down, and he also missed several submission and transition opportunities.

If you wish me to go more in depth, I'll be happy to.


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## K-man (Dec 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Not to butt in on Kman's behalf, but he is correct here. Their ground fighting ability was hilariously bad. For example, there was a pretty clear mount and submission opportunities for the WC guy and he completely missed them. The Karate guy had to literally fight to regain standing position against a WC guy who was barely holding him down, and he also missed several submission and transition opportunities.
> 
> If you wish me to go more in depth, I'll be happy to.


For goodness sake! What are you doing agreeing with me? You'll damage my reputation if you're not careful! <dummy spit>


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## kynir (Dec 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> Cool! I suppose you could say I don't know a lot about WC. I'm not a fan of that type of sparring at any time. If I had to judge I would say the WC guy maintained his structure better than karate guy. I had an ex chunner as a student last year and I found his 'forward pressure' interesting. He had problems because as karateka we prefer to be off the centreline. But the truth is that neither system is designed for that type of fighting and neither system is designed to fight another trained person. I still maintain that when they hit the ground neither inspired me with their skill.
> 
> As to having a friendly wrestle, sure. Recently we had a barbecue for martial artists. I ended up on the lounge room floor with a bb karate mate who has been training BJJ for the past three years. I'm happy to have a friendly roll with anyone and I have no ego to defend on the ground. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't want to remain on the ground but I'm more than happy to play on the ground to work on escapes especially with people with expertise on the ground.


Most interesting, thanks for enlightening me with that perspective, we'd make great mates and would have great matches 


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## Mephisto (Dec 11, 2014)

kynir said:


> No art is better then the other, it all depends on the person and there knowledge,power,heart,spirit,and experience
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Although your quote is somewhat true, what you say is commonly repeated as fact, at this point it's a cliche martial arts saying. There are strong individual and weak individuals (I'm talking in terms of skill/ability not specifically the ability to lift heavy things) in every system, so in that respect you are correct. But, you should look at a system in its entirety. In a sense of the average ability of students some arts are better equipped for a real fight than others. Look at TKD and boxing, both schools will have good and bad students but I'd bet money that the average student at the boxing school will be better equipped for a real fight than the average tKD student. If I were to recommend a style to a guy who wants to learn to fight I'd pick one where the average students have a good level of competence for fighting. All most people can expect it to at least be average at an art, aim high though. If most guys in a system can fight its a good one, if most guys in a system can't fight than I'd recommend something else. Keeping in mind that in some arts fighting ability is not the primary goal. My point,? It's the fighter not the art is true but is a tired cliche that's get repeated all to often with little thought put into what that really says.

A parallel example, "be like water" is s tired Bruce lee quote I've heard over and over. I've had stiff awkward guys tell me that quote like it was something profound. But they are just repeating what they hear in Martial arts popular culture without understanding or practicing what it really means.



Hanzou said:


> While no art is better than another, different arts are better at certain things than other arts and vice versa.


^ my thoughts exactly.


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## Danny T (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> evasive footwork is a grappling term


However not exclusive to grappling. If a ground grappler were to attempt to takedown a boxer and the boxer were to use an evasive footwork action trained for evading another boxer simply getting out of range and preventing the takedown the boxer is now grappling? Having a hard time accepting your premise It's as saying a TKD fighter throws a roundhouse kick contacting with the shin the fighter is doing muay thai.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 11, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> In a sense of the average ability of students some arts are better equipped for a real fight than others. Look at TKD and boxing, both schools will have good and bad students but I'd bet money that the average student at the boxing school will be better equipped for a real fight than the average tKD student.


Why? 


> If I were to recommend a style to a guy who wants to learn to fight I'd pick one where the average students have a good level of competence for fighting. All most people can expect it to at least be average at an art, aim high though. If most guys in a system can fight its a good one, if most guys in a system can't fight than I'd recommend something else.


Judged how?  Ive never seen a list of real self defense situations broken down by style


> Keeping in mind that in some arts fighting ability is not the primary goal. My point,? It's the fighter not the art is true but is a tired cliche that's get repeated all to often with little thought put into what that really says.


So whats it really say?


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## geezer (Dec 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> ...Their ground fighting ability was hilariously bad. For example, there was a pretty *clear mount and submission opportunities* for the WC guy and he completely missed them. The Karate guy ...also *missed several submission* and transition opportunities.


I suppose you have a reasonable point_ if  _you are talking MMA, but if we are supposed to be looking at WC and Karate matchup --two arts that focus on stand-up striking-- your comments don't make a lot of sense. Neither art typically seeks submition opportunities. For that reason in bouts like this the participants should probably break withing a few seconds after going to the ground. That would avoid the unskilled scrambling.


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## Hanzou (Dec 11, 2014)

geezer said:


> I suppose you have a reasonable point_ if  _you are talking MMA, but if we are supposed to be looking at WC and Karate matchup --two arts that focus on stand-up striking-- your comments don't make a lot of sense. Neither art typically seeks submition opportunities. For that reason in bouts like this the participants should probably break withing a few seconds after going to the ground. That would avoid the unskilled scrambling.



Just because those arts are limited doesn't mean that you as a practitioner should be limited. Clearly ground fighting is a useful skill to have, as evidenced by these two guys rolling around on the ground for more than half the fight.


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## Danny T (Dec 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Just because those arts are limited doesn't mean that you as a practitioner should be limited. Clearly ground fighting is a useful skill to have,...


This I am in full agreement with.


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## drop bear (Dec 11, 2014)

Danny T said:


> However not exclusive to grappling. If a ground grappler were to attempt to takedown a boxer and the boxer were to use an evasive footwork action trained for evading another boxer simply getting out of range and preventing the takedown the boxer is now grappling? Having a hard time accepting your premise It's as saying a TKD fighter throws a roundhouse kick contacting with the shin the fighter is doing muay thai.



so i couldn't say he threw a Thai kick?


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## Danny T (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> so i couldn't say he threw a Thai kick?


Certainly you can say he threw a Thai kick however if it were a TKD roundhouse kick that contacted with the shin you would be incorrect in your statement. Just as your stating "evasive footwork is a grappling term" suggests that if a person used footwork to prevent a takedown it was grappling. Not all evasive footwork is grappling nor all roundhouse kicks that contact with the shin are thai kicks.


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## Mephisto (Dec 11, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Why?
> 
> Judged how?  Ive never seen a list of real self defense situations broken down by style
> 
> So whats it really say?


Look at the basic striking ability of an average boxer compared to your local average local tkd guy. I think you'll find that generally the boxers are in better shape and more skilled at applying their  art against a resisting opponent. I'm talking your average guy, there are outliers in tkd that will be able to defeat a boxer and vise versa but generally I don't believe this is the case. 

Why? The boxers spend more time trainibg with resisting partners, conditioning and working skills that are necessary in a fight: stamina, head and body movement, reaction, the ability to take a hit. The tkd guys spend time on forms, one steps, board breaking, and other things that are less vital to producing a skilled fighter. Alive training with an unpredictable and resisting opponent is the key. It could be the same for any art. generally arts that train more alive be it a grappling or striking art produce better conditioned fighters on average. This is not to say the other arts like my tkd example don't, but I'm talking about your average school.

On average some systems are better. The individual is certainly a factor but the "individual not the style" cliche isn't so simple.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 11, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> Look at the basic striking ability of an average boxer compared to your local average local tkd guy. I think you'll find that generally the boxers are in better shape and more skilled at applying their  art against a resisting opponent. I'm talking your average guy, there are outliers in tkd that will be able to defeat a boxer and vise versa but generally I don't believe this is the case.
> 
> Why? The boxers spend more time trainibg with resisting partners, conditioning and working skills that are necessary in a fight: stamina, head and body movement, reaction, the ability to take a hit. The tkd guys spend time on forms, one steps, board breaking, and other things that are less vital to producing a skilled fighter. Alive training with an unpredictable and resisting opponent is the key. It could be the same for any art. generally arts that train more alive be it a grappling or striking art produce better conditioned fighters on average. This is not to say the other arts like my tkd example don't, but I'm talking about your average school.
> 
> On average some systems are better. The individual is certainly a factor but the "individual not the style" cliche isn't so simple.


I disagree with all of this but we are moving too far away from the topic which is frowned upon in this establishment


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## Mephisto (Dec 11, 2014)

So according to the thread title its a wing chun guy vs karake. I'll have to look up karake


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## ballen0351 (Dec 11, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> So according to the thread title its a wing chun guy vs karake. I'll have to look up karake


I didn't notice that until you posted that.


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## K-man (Dec 11, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I didn't notice that until you posted that.


Hence the earlier comment about karaoke.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 27, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> While no art is better than another, different arts are better at certain things than other arts and vice versa.


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Disagree. IMO, Wing Chun is far superior to traditional karate as a whole.  Wing Chun makes better use of blocking, economy of motion, simultaneous striking, and continuous striking, and to include a phrase from a recent T--very high "mental clarity."  Moreover, the true strength behind Wing Chun comes out when the WC practitioner has highly developed internal energy.  It's not that traditional karate can't achieve these qualities, it's that Wing Chun does so on a higher level of sophistication more advanced marital skill.
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I myself a traditional karate practitioner, would want to look into a style of kung fu.  Wing chun as I understand it and in talking with kung fu instructors in my locale--WC is just to stylized & sophisticated for me.  Traditional karate is hard enough.
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I have enormous respect for bona-fide Wing chun.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 27, 2015)

I'd like to see some really good video interviews on Wing Chun theory & principles.  As a general rule, I think Wing Chun is misunderstood by most of the Western World.  That's my 2 cents, seeing the demo video.  I'm sure it's hard to locate quality video on WC.


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## Hanzou (Feb 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Disagree. IMO, Wing Chun is far superior to traditional karate as a whole.  Wing Chun makes better use of blocking, economy of motion, simultaneous striking, and continuous striking, and to include a phrase from a recent T--very high "mental clarity."  Moreover, the true strength behind Wing Chun comes out when the WC practitioner has highly developed internal energy.  It's not that traditional karate can't achieve these qualities, it's that Wing Chun does so on a higher level of sophistication more advanced marital skill.
> |
> I myself a traditional karate practitioner, would want to look into a style of kung fu.  Wing chun as I understand it and in talking with kung fu instructors in my locale--WC is just to stylized & sophisticated for me.  Traditional karate is hard enough.
> ...



While your perspective is an interesting one, I have to disagree. While Wing Chun has its pros, so does Karate. Both have their cons as well, as demonstrated in dramatic fashion in that video, but the same can be said about any martial art if we're honest with ourselves.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 28, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> While your perspective is an interesting one, I have to disagree. While Wing Chun has its pros, so does Karate. Both have their cons as well, as demonstrated in dramatic fashion in that video, but the same can be said about any martial art if we're honest with ourselves.


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I have to disagree.  There is a hierarchy in TMA, IMHO.  Karate < WC.
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As to the video, it has been roundly criticized by posters, and I concur it is hardly a good representation.  As to the concept of a comparison & as a discussion starter, the vid is fine.  I thought that the 'karate guy' was below par.  A more dynamic karateka would have made all the difference.
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At my dojo, they don't either compare or criticize other styles, but the instructors have an unwritten respect for the ability of the serious kung fu practitioners in my locale.
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A good combat vid of Wing Chun doesn't come to mind, so that's where my suggestion for the senior's here to look into came from.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 28, 2015)

Speaking of challenge matches, I did have a local kung fu instructor call me out on an informal challenge match some years ago.  I might be able to match him if I trained my karate on a professional intensity.  But quite possibly not.  Not a good match up for me so I declined.  I would have rather trained under him, but to the general public he was teaching McDojo Fu.
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One of the few Wing Chun practitioners I know in the area did engage the Kung Fu instructor.  The WC guy had obtained his black-belt at a larger city on the East Coast.  The tale was that he was able to back up the Kung fu instructor & make him work.  As to a win, the WC conceded the Kung Fu instructor was real.
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That WC practitioner had been bitten by the 'full contact' bug and wanted me to train such with him.  He was a good guy & knowledgeable in kung fu as well as boxing.  He put a chest protector on me and punched me real hard in the chest.  Didn't feel good.
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I trained basics with him privately for a short time (not WC though), but declined FC, which I don't endorse.  In his boxing vs. my karate demo exchange, I could see how I could end up using too much force when he was really doing same.  Since I like to go to the head especially because boxers always expose the head so for tactical reasons, training FC is just too dangerous in my book.


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## mograph (Feb 28, 2015)

How does one resolve these discussions? What to compare? The average Wing Chun practitioner vs. the average karateka?  Or compare top-masters of each style?


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## Danny T (Mar 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I have to disagree.  There is a hierarchy in TMA, IMHO.  Karate < WC.
> |
> As to the video, it has been roundly criticized by posters, and I concur it is hardly a good representation.  As to the concept of a comparison & as a discussion starter, the vid is fine.  I thought that the 'karate guy' was below par.  A more dynamic karateka would have made all the difference.
> ...


As a practitioner of wing chun and a certified full instructor I agree with Hanzou in that as much as I like wc it does have its weaknesses as all training methods do. There is no one method that is all encompassing for all situations and all environments. I have a rather high level training and skill sets in several different martial arts with shotokan being one. All of them have pros and cons.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 1, 2015)

Danny T said:


> As a practitioner of wing chun and a certified full instructor I agree with Hanzou in that as much as I like wc it does have its weaknesses as all training methods do. There is no one method that is all encompassing for all situations and all environments. I have a rather high level training and skill sets in several different martial arts with shotokan being one. All of them have pros and cons.


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Okay.  I get your general position, however I don't agree.  So as a certified WC instructor, would you please point out the weaknesses of WC over say Shotokan karate, in which you have a higher level of accomplishment.  I can't say in my area where I know any TMA practitioner who has cross trained in both WC or Shotokan continuosly.  Practitioners in my area generally evolve into one style by nationality for the most part.
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I'm very interested in a comparative viewpoint such are yours.....


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## Vajramusti (Mar 2, 2015)

mograph said:


> How does one resolve these discussions? What to compare? The average Wing Chun practitioner vs. the average karateka?  Or compare top-masters of each style?


--------------------\
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a silly discussion. If someone loves karate I don't argue with them.I don't impose my views on others.I have done some Okinawan and wado ryu karate- walked away from them when I ran into top flight wing chun sifu (Augustine Fong in Tucson). My sihing Danny Chan in his
competing days won every open tournament( mostly karate practitioners) with his wing chun skills.
I respect great achievements in any of the major martial arts.


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## geezer (Mar 2, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------\
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Its a silly discussion.
> ...I respect great achievements in any of the major martial arts.


 
'nuff said.


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## Hanzou (Mar 2, 2015)

mograph said:


> How does one resolve these discussions? What to compare? The average Wing Chun practitioner vs. the average karateka?  Or compare top-masters of each style?



.........

I thought we were just talking about that video.

I still find the ground fighting hilariously bad. Like two children fighting over a cookie that mommy dropped. All those years of training erased once they're off their feet.

Truly amazing, and pretty frightening when you think about it.


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## yak sao (Mar 2, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> .........
> 
> I thought we were just talking about that video.
> 
> ...




I've seen the same from strikers. They get into a heated match at a tournament, and the arms start flailing.


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## Jake104 (Mar 2, 2015)

The real question here that I think everybody is dying to know is.... Who would win in a IP Man vs Mr. Miyagi death match?  If we knew that answer, then I think the Karate vs Wing Chun debate would be settled once and for all? Too bad we will never know.. RIP IP Man and Pat Morita!


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## Vajramusti (Mar 3, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> The real question here that I think everybody is dying to know is.... Who would win in a IP Man vs Mr. Miyagi death match?  If we knew that answer, then I think the Karate vs Wing Chun debate would be settled once and for all? Too bad we will never know.. RIP IP Man and Pat Morita!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
simple answer-Morita was an actor. Ip Man was not


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 10, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> simple answer-Morita was an actor. Ip Man was not


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You "Ip" correct....  Can't argue here....


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## TSDTexan (Nov 3, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> You "Ip" correct....  Can't argue here....



Mr. Miyagi was written and modeled on Chōjun Miyagi (宮城 長順, Miyagi Chōjun, April 25, 1888—October 8, 1953) according to the screen writer who wrote the first karatekid movie.

But I seriously doubt that you could get Ip Man and the real Mr. Miyagi to death match.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

K-man said:


> Which brings us back to the question of why people post videos on YouTube that show their Martial art in poor light.


  I don't think this is a bad thing so long as they are actually trying to fight with the fighting system.  I don't like when people show videos stating that "this is karate, kung fu, tkd" and when I look at it, I don't see any of the techniques of that fighting system being used.

Just because someone takes kung fu, karate, tkd, bjj, or whatever the fighting system is, doesn't mean that they are going to be good at it.  I know I've shown a few videos of my opponent getting the best of me and I don't mind because I don't claim to be an expert.  I still consider myself to be a beginner.  For some reason when people think that just because someone takes a martial arts that they are supposed to be this outstanding fighter by default.  Some people think that just because someone has a black belt rank that the person is going to be an excellent fighter.

I don't mind seeing someone doing poorly at using their fighting system so long as it's not presented as "This fighting system sucks" and this video of this person who has no fighting skills is the proof. We see car wrecks everyday and not once do we say "This car sucks and this accident is proof of it."

A Martial art fighting system should be though of like a car.  When the car (martial art fighting system) crashes it's not the car that sucks, it's the driver (practitioner) did a poor job of driving (fighting).  Please don't debate on this statement.  It's not an absolute and nor denial that there are systems out there that are useless by design.  Just like there are some cars out there that are useless by design based on today's standards. (The ford Model T for example)


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

KPM said:


> I'm not saying the Karate guy wasn't pathetic!  I'm just saying that begs the question of why they put him out there to be videotaped.  If he was the best they had to offer........


Sometimes that's what the best student in the school looks like lol.  The term "best" is always defined by what it's being compared to.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Not to butt in on Kman's behalf, but he is correct here. Their ground fighting ability was hilariously bad. For example, there was a pretty clear mount and submission opportunities for the WC guy and he completely missed them. The Karate guy had to literally fight to regain standing position against a WC guy who was barely holding him down, and he also missed several submission and transition opportunities.
> 
> If you wish me to go more in depth, I'll be happy to.


Well if both are horrible at fighting on the ground then there's nothing to really lose since both are really bad at it.


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