# IMAF Leadership



## Datu Tim Hartman

I think there are some things that should be cleared up about who should be running the IMAF. This was written on an other forum. 



> Another factor that led to this idea was the notion that some people are contesting who should/is the rightful leader of the IMAF now that Professor is gone.



This is not as complicated as people may think. At the time of Remy's illness there were several candidates to take over for Remy. My list is as follows, in alphabetical order:

*Chuck Gauss
Tim Hartman (myself)
Randy Shea*

The three of us were truly LEADERS inside the IMAF. How did the rest of the MOTTs get in? Don't know, don't care. After a HUGE pile of BS, I resigned from the group. By doing so I have forfeited any right of leadership in that group. Does this disqualify me from leadership in the art of Modern Arnis? No.

Do I feel that anyone else currently has the right to lead the IMAF? No. Whether I like the group or not,  I don't feel that anyone else has claim to that role. The MOTTs and myself were actively participating at IMAF events during the last five years of Remy's life. A big part of leadership is that the group you are trying to lead needs to know and trust you.

This is not to say that more are not able to continue Remy's art. This is just to say who should be leading the IMAF. Do I feel that Delany should have his own IMAF? No, no, no! 




  :argue:


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## Cruentus

Tim,

I could smell that can you just opened up from 260 miles away, here in Michigan.

I do know one thing that I can attest to, and that is this:

I will never call someone who was my PEER in Modern Arnis when Remy was alive a "grandmaster".

And that is all there is to it!
 :soapbox:


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## Bob Hubbard

Just a question - Who is Chuck Gauss? 

(I know of 2 of the 3 mentioned individuals, thats why I ask, so we know all the players)

Danke!
:asian:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *Who is Chuck Gauss? *



A MOTT from Michigan who is also a Judo player. He is a police or correctional officer I believe. See:

http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml


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## Kenpo Yahoo

Please forgive the stupid question, but what's wrong with Jeff Delaney?  The reason I ask is that he seems to be the closest Modern Arnis instructor (at least of any notoriety) in my area.  I admittedly know jack-squat about the politics going on, so if someone could clue me in before I make a mistake I would greatly appreciate it.

respectfully


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> A MOTT from Michigan who is also a Judo player. He is a police or correctional officer I believe. See:
> 
> http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml *




Chuck is a cop.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *Please forgive the stupid question, but what's wrong with Jeff Delaney?  The reason I ask is that he seems to be the closest Modern Arnis instructor (at least of any notoriety) in my area.  I admittedly know jack-squat about the politics going on, so if someone could clue me in before I make a mistake I would greatly appreciate it.
> 
> respectfully *



Jeff is a self proclaimed Grand Master. Remy only premoted him to 5th degree black.


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## Matt Stone

But if Delaney is only a 5th degree black, why does he have all the ads in the rag-azines stating he is the inherited GM of Modern Arnis under Presas?

Why hasn't anyone put him in check yet?  What about the MARPIO people?

I am new to this, and admittedly learned all I know about Modern Arnis from one person, and then that was here in Japan...  So I am out of the political loop.  But I plan on continuing my training in the US, and I certainly don't want to get stuck in some goo that limits my training...

Where do the other Datus fit into this picture?

Inquiring minds would respectfully request enlightenment...  If it is not appropriate for public discussion, please email me privately...

Gambarimasu.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *But if Delaney is only a 5th degree black, why does he have all the ads in the rag-azines stating he is the inherited GM of Modern Arnis under Presas? *



Because magazines get paid to print ads, not see if they are correct.


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## DoctorB

Matt Stone, wrote:

Not meaning to start a fire... 
But if Delaney is only a 5th degree black, why does he have all the ads in the rag-azines stating he is the inherited GM of Modern Arnis under Presas?
------------------------------------------------

Now that you have asked a very good question and there was a very good short answer posted by Renegade:

>Because magazines get paid to print ads, not see if they are correct.

Please allow me to add another point, because I wrote the following statement that was quoted at the very top of this thread regarding the contested leadership within the Modern Arnis world that began with Professor Presas' illness and subsequent death due to cancer. 

:quote: Another factor that led to this idea was the notion that 
:some people are contesting who should/is the rightful leader of 
:the IMAF now that Professor is gone. 

I have proposed holding a Modern Arnis Symposium to give everyone interested an opportunity to meet and train with as many of the leading instructors in the art as possible at one time and place, next year in July 2003.

Tim is correct, magazine ad editors are concerned with receiving payments not checking for validity and accuracy.  It is a very large stretch to believe that a person just promoted to 5th degree black belt could possibly be considered a grand master, but we do have one person making that claim and he does have some supporters.

I will say once again that the 2003 Symposium will allow people to meet one another, train and cross train with a wide variety of Modern Arnis players who have trained at different periods of time under the late GM Presas.  It will also allow everyone in attendence to see for themselves who has the knowledge, skills and abilities to be considered one of the best at the art.  But *do not* expect to see a new consensus leader for Modern Arnis emerge from this Symposium.  What we are most likely going to see is a new respect for the validity and variety that is possible within the art of Modern Arnis.

In my post yesterday, under the Symposium thread, I listed the people who are potentially going to be teaching at the event.  They represent the time frame from the mid 1970's to 2000 in the late GM Presas' teaching career in the USA.  It does not get much better than that, even without Delaney and the rest of the MoTTs being present.  

If any of the people who hold the MoTTs title wish to join the instructional group, they will be welcomed.  Even though a couple of IMAF, Inc. members like to constantly remind me that the MoTTs have nothing to prove, I would welcome any of them anyways.

No one is going to replace Professor Remy Presas.  Anyone who harbors that illusion needs an attitude adjustment.  There are also a significant number of former Presas students who are very skilled within the art.  They are not trying to claim any leadership roles or titles within the IMAF.  These people are working and developing the art in their own ways.  It would be a grave mistake to believe that because someone has not been attending IMAF camps and seminars over the past 5 to 10 years, that they have nothing to offer those who were studying with Professor.  Sometimes when the "circle" has been closed too tightly, new relavent information is kept out, to the detriment of the "insiders"! 

Matt Stone, also asked: 

Why hasn't anyone put him in check yet? What about the MARPIO people?
---------------------------------------------------

A very good couple of questions and I can't answer either one.  My way of getting some clarification on this is to host the Symposium and allow each individuals skills do all of the talking.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Bob Hubbard

1 point to keep in mind as one flips through the ads in various publications...anybody can claim to be a grandmaster of an art. 

 There at 1 point in time was a press release on JD's site claiming that he and Dr. Shea were "Co-Successors and Co-Grandmasters".  When this release was sent out, I believe JD was in charge of the communications and it is questionable if it was released with Dr. Shea's knowledge.    After the split, Dr. Shea's group has since distanced themselves from the statement.

:asian:


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## Dan Anderson

Hi Folks,

Kaith - "Who is Chuck Gauss?"

Chuck is a nice guy from, I believe, Chicago who I first met around 1995-ish.  He is a hard working, consciencious fellow and travelled with Prof. Presas alot.  His background is in judo and you'll see him as the guy who gets demonstrated on (i.e. killed) in the latter day tape of RP.

Kenpo Yahoo - "Please forgive the stupid question, but what's wrong with Jeff Delaney?"

The two primary things "wrong" with Jeff is his assumption of the title "Grandmaster" of Modern Arnis and his breaking off from the IMAF and forming his own IMAF shortly after Prof. Presas died.  

1.  By calling himself Grandmaster of Modern Arnis when he has SO many juniors is like a giving a duck a microphone at te beginning of duck hunting season.  There are too many of us who could smoke him.  (Note: If he formed his own system or subsystem of Modern Arnis and called himself Grandmaster of it, that would be an entirely different matter and I, for one, would have no problem with it.)

2.  His splitting of from the organization which had Prof. Presas' blessing to form his own is duplicitous at the very least.  He was named co-successor in IMAF by RP, not given carte blanche to go form his own.  As of yet, Jeff has not spoken up to offer why or to defend himself.

Yiliquan 1 - "Why hasn't anyone put him in check yet? What about the MARPIO people?"

He hasn't been put in check yet because this is a free country and has laws against hammering every yahoo who acts like a putz.  Admittedly, I have been saved by this very same rule in the past so this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  The MARPPIO people are oding their own thing.  A key point here is that since America is a free country and the legal system works against dueling and administering butt whippings, anyone can do what they want to a certain degree, especially if they don't have to back it up or the laws of the land keep him from having to.  Tis what it is.

"Where do the other Datus fit into this picture?"

Datu Kelly is very outspoken on this subject and refers to JD as "Grandslapster Jeff DeLame."  As to Datus Shishir Inocalla, Rick Jornales, Deiter Knuettel and David Hoffman, I do not know.  As to the overall picture, Datu Shishir is working up in Vancouver, BC, Canada in Modern Arnis.  Datu David is with IMAF.  Datu Dieter is working in Germany.  Datu Rick has his own group and I do not know if he is working in Modern Arnis at all.  Datu Tim Hartman heads up the World Modern Arnis Alliance.

"But *do not* expect to see a new consensus leader for Modern Arnis emerge from this Symposium. What we are most likely going to see is a new respect for the validity and variety that is possible within the art of Modern Arnis."

Dr. Barber's statement here is correct, in my opinion.  Go to the symposium if you can.  The list of instructors is OUTSTANDING and if I were not one of the presenters, I'd have my fee paid already.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis


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## dearnis.com

Chuck Gauss is a police officer in either Detroit or one of its suburbs; he has worked, among other areas, in K9 and a youth gang task force.  I have known Chuck since 1994; he is a strong arnis player, both literally and in terms of his knowledge.  He put a lot of time in on the road with Professor (which equalled a lot of time as Professor's uke).  
Chuck is a dynamic guy with a very real love of the art; if you have the chance to get on the mat with him do it!  (but use caution working obstruction removal drills with him; the bruises take some time to heal...) Chuck's interpretation of the art is very, very solid.
Chad


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## Cruentus

I've always liked him. He lives in Taylor, Mi., and is a Police Officer in Canton, if memory serves me correctly.

I haven't talked to him in years, but I'd sure like to. Anybody have any ideas on how to get a hold of him?

I'd sure appreciate it. 

Thanks! :asian:


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *
> 
> I haven't talked to him in years, but I'd sure like to. Anybody have any ideas on how to get a hold of him?
> 
> I'd sure appreciate it.*



Low and firm, Paul, low and firm.  

Dan

PS - This is from what I have heard, not personal experience...of my own, anyway.


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## Rich Parsons

Hi All,

First, Let me add my opinion that Chuck Guass is not only a nice guy but also has lots of knowledge of Modern Arnis. The reason I believe Tim Hartman and others have him on thier personal lists of leaders, is that he had is own seminars while the Professor was alive, and he was always willing to help, to instruct, to travel, to do what ever was required. i.e. a Leader.

If you have the chance to work with him I recommended it.

Rich


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## bloodwood

Within the inner circles of Modren Arnis all the players know each other or know of each other, their skills and who they are associated with.  On the other hand those outside the political circle know only what they are told by their instructors, and this is to be expected. However the other source of information for the masses are magazines such as Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu. If someone puts a full size ad for a seminar or camp in this medium, people will believe what they see because the publication has credibility and is well established. One way to discredit Jeff Delaney would be to take out a full page ad on a regular basis, stating the true facts about his ability and the way he became a GM. Sounds ridiculous right, it is, but that's would it would take, and is there anyone willing to do this, probably not.
  As for Jeff Delaney attending the symposium, it won't happen because he has too much to loose. As long as the outer circle thinks he's a GM, his deception is safe. He'll continue to do seminars, camps and produce videos as the GM of Modern Arnis.
   OK now it's time to dance with the devil.
Professor Remy was a genius as a martial artist and could see many moves ahead in sparing or in a confrontation, but he lived for the moment and didn't look far into the future for the IMAF or it's continuance after his passing. Had he named Tim Hartman to take charge as has been previously stated when he first became ill in Europe, things probably would be different now. He should have went with his first instinct, which was his forte, instead his vision was clouded by too many voices that almost instantly caused the split in the IMAF. If Tim Hartman had been named, sure some would have left, but not a mass exodus as what occurred. At least there would have been room for negotiation. Also, he would NEVER use the title of GM. The Professor's son or another Datu would also have been an option. A group of recently promoted middle level black belts was not the answer.
  I am not judging the ability of those left in charge, just the choice of some that did not have the time or rank to support being elevated to the top of the heap.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Now that we have discussed IMAF leadership, let's talk about Modern Arnis sucsessorship. 

Do I feel that the IMAFs and the MOTTs are the people who are in charge of the art? No. They run an organization. No more, no less.

I feel that it will take the next 5-10 years to find the next leader or leaders of the art. Anything can happen at any moment. There are many of us that are trying to fill the loss of Remy at the moment. Will we all last? I can't answer that question. It doesn't matter who Remy named. Respect is earned not appointed.

We must remember that there are several MA groups and there will be more to follow. I don't feel that any one group is in charge of the art. We all have a duty to carry on the art. 

I forgot who told me this "Every Grand Master started as a white belt." 

:asian:


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## Cruentus

Hello-o-o-o-o-o 

(the sound of crickets chirping...)

Man....it's so quiet in here that it's scary.....kind of like that silence in the movie's, right before an ambush.

Frankly....the silence is sort of frightning.

What do you think, Renegade????

(observe, the WMAA war machine below...)

:apv:


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## Rich Parsons

Renegade & Paul,

You guys are the WHIP!, Now, if I can just find mine to take you guys to task  .

Seriously, in the next few years those that stay with it will have a chance to been seen as leaders. There might be some new factions or people arise from the conflicts and issues of politics.

Some will be proven as good business leaders, others as good martial art leaders, and others as good presenters or teachers. Yes, you can be a good teacher and not be the best one in the classroom. 

As for the silence, it could mean many things:
1) People are not interested
2) People are thinking through their responses to be clear and level headed.
3) It is the calm before the storm / tornado / pick your natural disaster.
4) The ambush is coming, just wait for the music to change.
5) Insert your own ideas here.


I have a very weird question. What would be soooo wrong with everyone succeeding? I mean what would be wrong with all organizations being able to continue their training and to have the art proliferate? I would like to see this.

Now, to answer my own rhetorical questions. The human EGO, the human personality, the belief that yourself or your instructor is the correct / right path to follow.

Oh well, it looks like I am all over the field with this post.
Time to go

Rich


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## Cruentus

> Time to go



You left just in time Rich! :rofl: 



> I mean what would be wrong with all organizations being able to continue their training and to have the art proliferate?



There would be nothing wrong with it, except that I really don't see pure and honest intentions with "all" of the organizations out there, and I think that is really what the problem is here. Everyone will _say_ they have pure intentions, and that they just want to help carry on Professors art, but I don't buy it. Not from everyone. I think that there are a lot of self-serving alterior motives from certian individuals high on the totem poll. These certain individuals need to take some serious inventory, because I personally do NOT believe that those with selfish motives should use a dead man's art to further their own careers, ego's, or whatever. I think that that is the problem, and because of that, I don't think that ALL people should be successors (although I wish I could say otherwise).


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## Dan Anderson

We are all successors.  Not all of us are leaders.  The leaders _will_ surface in the next few years and there will not be just _one_ leader.  You can take that one to the bank.  Neither good nor bad, just is.

Dan Anderson

PS - There will always be just one Jeffery Leader - for better or worse. :shrug:


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## Cruentus

I see what you mean. I guess I am sort of interchanging the words "successor" and "leader." We all have a peice of the art, and are "successors" in that respect. But what I said above still stands as it applies to the "leaders", the orgs., and to many of the inflated ego's.

An yes there can be only one Jeffery Leader! So, if I change my name to leader, and chop off his head, will I absorb all of his powers!?

Like the highlander "There can be only one...."


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## arnisador

Come now Mr. Anderson, can't we go back to teasing Tim Hartman instead of me?

I like the "we are all successors" philosophy but feel unwilling to apply it to myself--modesty, be it false or appropriate. Splitting the art in many directions may well allow it to evolve and may be a good thing in the long run ("survival of the fittest") even if it hurts in the short run.

It's simple for me. Tim Hartman was always the Professor's main person, it seemed to me, during my time in (since the mid-to-late 80s). He showed a lot of leadership. I'm sticking with him because unlike many others he can really explain it--he understands it. (This is true of Mr. Anderson as well of course but I only recently met him. Plus Tim still has his hair.) So, Modern Arnis leadership is an easy question for me to settle for my own needs.


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## Rich Parsons

_Paul Said:

You left just in time Rich!  :rofl: _

My Reply:

I am getting better at my Timing I see.  

Now to get the timing to work all the time. 

*( Goes looking for Paul   *)

Rich


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## Roland

I found two in the London & area phone book alone today!


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## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Within the inner circles of Modren Arnis all the players know each other or know of each other, their skills and who they are associated with.  On the other hand those outside the political circle know only what they are told by their instructors, and this is to be expected. However the other source of information for the masses are magazines such as Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu. If someone puts a full size ad for a seminar or camp in this medium, people will believe what they see because the publication has credibility and is well established. One way to discredit Jeff Delaney would be to take out a full page ad on a regular basis, stating the true facts about his ability and the way he became a GM. Sounds ridiculous right, it is, but that's would it would take, and is there anyone willing to do this, probably not.
> As for Jeff Delaney attending the symposium, it won't happen because he has too much to loose. As long as the outer circle thinks he's a GM, his deception is safe. He'll continue to do seminars, camps and produce videos as the GM of Modern Arnis.
> OK now it's time to dance with the devil.
> Professor Remy was a genius as a martial artist and could see many moves ahead in sparing or in a confrontation, but he lived for the moment and didn't look far into the future for the IMAF or it's continuance after his passing. Had he named Tim Hartman to take charge as has been previously stated when he first became ill in Europe, things probably would be different now. He should have went with his first instinct, which was his forte, instead his vision was clouded by too many voices that almost instantly caused the split in the IMAF. If Tim Hartman had been named, sure some would have left, but not a mass exodus as what occurred. At least there would have been room for negotiation. Also, he would NEVER use the title of GM. The Professor's son or another Datu would also have been an option. A group of recently promoted middle level black belts was not the answer.
> I am not judging the ability of those left in charge, just the choice of some that did not have the time or rank to support being elevated to the top of the heap. *



Bloodwood, please allow me to make a suggestion with regard to people knowing the skills of others within Modern Arnis... I would suggest that your statement is not as true as you and other might want to believe.

For those people who left the IMAF, 5, 7 or 10 years before Professor's illness and subsequent death, it is very diifult for them to "know" the skill levels of those who came on later.  For those who came on later, it is difficult if not impossible for them to know the skill levels of those whom they never met or trained with in Modern Arnis.  Therein lies the crux of a number of problems with orientation and communications.

Next we must consider the very plain and well stated point of fact, tapi-tapi has had earlier incarnations under the names, single stick sparring, de cadena and cuentada!!  How is it possible that everyone would be expected to accept and acknowledge tapi-tapi as the highest form of the art when the people supposedly best versed in that skill package are very clearly junior in terms of Modern Arnis experience to the people who went through the art with Professor in the 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's?

Add in the fact that some of the leading tapi-tapi people, have less experience with this aspect of the art than some of the people who had left the IMAF, for whatever reasons, it would seem logical there some people would be reluctant to accept the tapi-tapi people as the annointed leaders.  As Mr. Hartman has stated below, respect has to earned and that has not really happened as of yet.

It is also true that Mr. Delaney has stretched the credibility concept with his usage of the title of GM of Modern Arnis.  Enough people have written on that topic, so I will not bore everyone with any more comments in that area.

As for whether or not Mr. Delaney will be at the Symposium next year, i do not believe that any of us can answer that question.  He has not declined my invitation, therefore it is a possibility, however faint.  On the other hand, neither Dr. Schea nor any of ther MoTTs have indicated that they are even considering attending.  I am not speculating in either direction but leadership is best demonstrated just as respect has to earned.  

Your comments and suggestions are welcomed.  I would also like to have some idea about just how many people would actually like to attend the Symposium next year.  It would be a shame to have an "instructor rich-particpant poor" event.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Mao

Again I say that there are several events sponsored by the IMAF, inc. that anyone is welcome to show up at to see, interact with, train with or talk to the IMAF, inc. Board of Directors or MOTT'S or anybody else who is there. Why wait? If you are able to empty your cup, show up. 

     respectfully,
 Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF,inc. Board of Directors


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Not sure what you're talking about? This is your 1st reply to this thread. May be you should clarify.


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## Mao

How is it possible that everyone would be expected to accept and acknowledge tapi-tapi as the highest form of the art when the people supposedly best versed in that skill package are very clearly junior in terms of Modern Arnis experience to the people who went through the art with Professor in the 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's?

  -sounds like an issue

Add in the fact that some of the leading tapi-tapi people, have less experience with this aspect of the art than some of the people who had left the IMAF, for whatever reasons, it would seem logical there some people would be reluctant to accept the tapi-tapi people as the annointed leaders. As Mr. Hartman has stated below, respect has to earned and that has not really happened as of yet.

  -sounds like another one

  -So, read previous post. Does that clear it up?

            with all DUE respect.......................


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *Again I say that there are several events sponsored by the IMAF, inc. that anyone is welcome to show up at to see, interact with, train with or talk to the IMAF, inc. Board of Directors or MOTT'S or anybody else who is there. Why wait? If you are able to empty your cup, show up.
> 
> respectfully,
> Guro Dan McConnell
> IMAF,inc. Board of Directors *



To chime in, I do have to say, again, that everyone was nice and friendly at the Michigan Summer Camp. I do wish I had more time to talk to Dan, though.

As for emptying my glass, I think that is a great idea. Now to find my glass, . . . , would empty hands do?  

Glad to see you reply Dan.

Rich


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## Roland

I have not goten any info on IMAF events at all, other than the occasional post here, which is usually to late, or even after the fact!


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## Guro Harold

How does it benefit anyone by comparing the Masters of Tapi-Tapi to any other top students of the Professor.  I don't hear anyone striving to compare themselves to Senoir Master Rodillo Dagooc or Roland Dantes.  Hadn't heard anyone mentioning that they have won as many world titles as Doug Pierre or has made as many knife innovations as Datu Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, or Bram Frank.

The Masters of Tapi-Tapi have heart and skill.  The Professor saw it, encouraged and trained them, and they were asked to even help him make two video series.  In musical terms, it doesn't matter how superior the conductor is if the symphonic musicians cannot carry a note. 

Did they all train with the Professor for twenty straight years? No, only maybe two of them.  But they did do their best to train as hard as they could and sacrifice like all the other top students before them? Therefore, in a way, the top students regardless of era have more in common than what meets the eye.

How many people stuck with Remy from the beginning?  How many people bailed when they got theirs?  Who knows what? "I got secrets on you, you got secrets on me!!!!"  

Please, enough!!! The constant bickering is at least disheartening on one end and near negligent on the other because of its poor example of acceptance and tolerance.

I will personally be less inclined to deal with any group, event, or person whether they be MoTTs, old school, new school or renegades who do not conduct themselves with class, professionalism, respect, and class.

Harold R. Evans


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## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *How is it possible that everyone would be expected to accept and acknowledge tapi-tapi as the highest form of the art when the people supposedly best versed in that skill package are very clearly junior in terms of Modern Arnis experience to the people who went through the art with Professor in the 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's?
> 
> -sounds like an issue
> 
> Add in the fact that some of the leading tapi-tapi people, have less experience with this aspect of the art than some of the people who had left the IMAF, for whatever reasons, it would seem logical there some people would be reluctant to accept the tapi-tapi people as the annointed leaders. As Mr. Hartman has stated below, respect has to earned and that has not really happened as of yet.
> 
> -sounds like another one
> 
> -So, read previous post. Does that clear it up?
> 
> with all DUE respect....................... *



No issues, just a summary of observations based on what has been written in a number of different post over sevral different threads.  

You can disagree all you want, but that does not alter the fact that neither Delaney nor the other MoTTs are accepted as the leaders of Modern Arnis by some people outside of the respective groups that these folks lead.  To state that fact is not being disrespectful.  It points toward some work that needs to be done to "correct" that impression.  You as a member of the IMAF, Inc and a Board of Directors member, have a vested interest in this and there are others with vested interest and a different point of view.  That is the way it is.  That is the truth as of this moment.

I am sure that some people may very well accept your invitation to see and work with the IMAF, Inc leaders, others will not.  Some people are waiting to see if Delaney and the other MoTTs are going to present at the Symposium.  Time and circumstances will give us the answers.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Mao

I was not trying to debate or argue or even disagree. I was only
restating a point.


"You can disagree all you want, but that does not alter the fact that neither Delaney nor the other MoTTs are accepted as the leaders of Modern Arnis by some people outside of the respective groups that these folks lead." 

-I wasn't in disagreement with you, in fact I agree. This will always be the case due to ego and whatnot.

"It points toward some work that needs to be done to "correct" that impression."

-I agree again. There is always work to be done.

"You as a member of the IMAF, Inc and a Board of Directors member, have a vested interest in this and there are others with vested interest and a different point of view. "

-Of course, there are always different points of view.


"I am sure that some people may very well accept your invitation to see and work with the IMAF, Inc leaders, others will not. Some people are waiting to see if Delaney and the other MoTTs are going to present at the Symposium. "

-Again I say, why wait. One can find events at modernarnis.net and go see now. Just because someone does or does not go to the Symp. does not prove or disprove anything. There are ample times and places to check things out for yourself long before the symp..

                      Guro Dan McConnell
                 IMAF,inc. Board of Directors


----------



## Mao

I wish I could have spent more time with you as well. The word was that you were a very nice guy. The world could stand more good guys. Thank you.

                 sincerely,
             Dan McConnell


----------



## Cruentus

> How does it benefit anyone by comparing the Masters of Tapi-Tapi to any other top students of the Professor. I don't hear anyone striving to compare themselves to Senoir Master Rodillo Dagooc or Roland Dantes. Hadn't heard anyone mentioning that they have won as many world titles as Doug Pierre or has made as many knife innovations as Datu Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, or Bram Frank.



Good point. This brings up a question: Why do people compare themselves and others to the MOTT'S? Why the "others" against "MOTT'S" comparison?

I think I might have an answer. During the begining of the new IMAF, Inc. leadership (after the Delenay/Shea group split), the impression was that the MOTTS had believed that they had achieved the "highest" profenciency in the art through Tapi-Tapi. 
This is part of what started the controversy.



> From IMAF, Inc. site: The IMAF will provide for the disciplined, rigorous, and systematic training in Modern Arnis, to include (1) the Way of the FLOW (2) the Art of TAPI-TAPI.



In the purpose statement (the above was only a portion of the statement; please check the site for it's entirety) which is still on the site today, the impression is that the IMAF, Inc. believes that the highest form of Modern Arnis is through the Tapi-Tapi. This impression was more prevalent month's ago, before all of the new text and features were added. I have heard member's say this themselves, and if you look at old posts on this talk forum you'll see evidence that this is the prevailing belief by IMAF Inc supporters. The term "Tapi-Tapi," since professors death, has been used by IMAF Inc. as a blanketed statement that has been applied to  "FLOW" and every other aspect of Modern Arnis. 

I think that if Professors intention was for this to happend, he would have changed the name of his art to "Tapi-Tapi" before he died. Yet, the name of the art remains "Modern Arnis"....therefore, Modern Arnis "must" include other important concepts outside of the circle of one concept: Tapi-Tapi.

Since IMAF, Inc. has been propigating Tapi-Tapi, a "drill" that happend to be fairly new (and exciting to Remy) in it's method of presentation, to be the highest level of Modern Arnis. And since the IMAF Inc. are the "Masters of Tapi-Tapi," then the implication is that the MOTTS are at the highest level of proficiency in Modern Arnis. This would then also imply that since they believe that they are the highest level in Modern Arnis, then they also believe that everyone else (including their seniors in rank and seniors in length of time training) is NOT at the highest level of Profiency in Modern Arnis. Then, the further implication (or logical conclusion) here is that in order to get the "complete" form of Modern Arnis, one must go through the IMAF, Inc. for this because they are at the arts highest profiency.
And one final blow to the art: it is implied that our founder, who gave out the MOTTS titles, sanctioned all of the above implications. 

The Datu's, the Senior Masters, and the other leaders claim to be what they are; leaders; and...they lead. The MOTTS don't claim to be just leaders; if that was the only claim, then there would be no problem, and no "others" vs. "MOTTS" attitude. The IMAF, Inc. appears to claim to be the only leaders with Professors complete art. This is where the problems and arguements occur.

Now, I am not turning this into a research project where I pick apart and decifer "rhetoric" of IMAF, Inc., and previous posts, etc. (that would be unfair, because that might turn this into a battle of rhetoric, a battle of which I would win). Please understand also that I don't want to battle, or slam IMAF, Inc.. However, the afor mentioned statements about the IMPLICATIONS of the IMAF, Inc. are FACT. The question remains: Are these implications intentional, and this is what the high members of the group believe, or are these unintentional implications.

This is like a forked road, and for me there is no turning back.

One road is this: The IMAF, Inc. does believe all of the implications. They believe they are the most senior in the art, that Professor Presas intended for them to be the sole leaders (thus "heirs"), and that "the highest proficiency" and complete art can only be realized through them. They believe that Professor sanctioned this to be true.

If this is the case, then I will know that what the IMAF, Inc. as a group is propigating are LIE's. Our founder did not intend for the MOTTS to be close minded and egotistical when he gave out the titles. He didn't intent for "alterior motives" to be involved. If this is the case, I will not only refuse to be included in their activities, or to include them in any of mine, but I will make it my personal goal to let the public inside as well as outside the Modern Arnis world know that the IMAF, Inc. are propigating lie's.

If this is also the case, I think that that the founders and leaders  and members of the group WHO ARE SINCERE should beg for forgiveness for defiling our founders dream, and leave the group. Otherwise, for the ones remaining, pack up your sticks and hide.

Road Two: The above implications where unintentional. They were a mistake. Due to lack of communication, internal conflict, or what have you, the implications may have been the perception of the outside world, but not the perception within the group.

If this is true, then the IMAF, Inc. recognizes that they are appointed leaders, but NOT superior to all other leaders in Modern Arnis. The MOTT's title is "a" title, but not "the" superior title. No one person or group has it all, and the IMAF, Inc. would have to be there to further professors dream with the parts that they have, just like everyone else.

The IMAF, Inc. would have to state this publically, so there would be no misunderstanding's. Their actions following this would also have to coencide with this belief. I would then feel very comfortable and happy to cross-train with them, and I would be comfortable with the IMAF, Inc. group as leaders in Modern Arnis.

Either way, I am tired of the inactivity. I want a definitive statement either way.


Conclusion: I have been at this fork in the road with IMAF, Inc. for almost a full year now since Professors passing. The same with many of you, inside and outside of the group. Which road should I take? Which road will you take. What roads are open to you? Or do you even see the road at all?

And....will our questions be answered.

I am waiting still.

Respectfully,
PAUL                    

:apv:


----------



## arnisador

*PAUL*, you need an editor! If MartialTalk charged you by the word we'd be rich.  

Can someone say more about this:


> The term "Tapi-Tapi," since professors death, has been used by IMAF Inc. as a blanketed statement that has been applied to "FLOW" and every other aspect of Modern Arnis.



How is it being applied to the flow?


----------



## Mao

How are you my sh-- stirring friend?
I won't quote the post. Suffice it to say it is, as you said, all conjecture. It would seem that rather than waste so much time ASSuming, you could make it to any one of the events listed on modernarnis.net .  I hope you don't think that the people you refer to are as arrogant as you make them sound in your post.  That wasn't Rich Parsons impression. That is no ones impression that has actually taken the time to talk to one of them/us. Also, most of the issues you have raised again have been discussed before and obviously not settled, at least iin your mind, according to your post.  Just take time to talk to them before you make them sound so bad. I thought you knew some of them better than that.  There are so many ways to contact them that it is silly not to.

                    Guro Dan McConnell
               IMAF ,inc. Board of Directors


----------



## Mao

Can someone say more about this:
quote: The term "Tapi-Tapi," since professors death, has been used by IMAF Inc. as a blanketed statement that has been applied to "FLOW" and every other aspect of Modern Arnis. 


 Tapi Tapi helps the student learn to flow from one movement or lock etc. to another. We do not use the term as a blanket statement to cover all of the art. There are still the "traditionals" among many other aspects to the art. Tapi tapi, generally speaking, takes the student from lock to lock to strike to bait and so on. It is not just a matter of hit for hit, there's more to it than that. For many, it is an experiencial portion of the art.  To simply say that it is the flow or that it is any one of the traditionals is to oversimplify. Of course one seeks to flow in terms of tapi tapi, but one can apply the flow to many other aspects as well, and not to just modern arnis. Did that help?

                         Guro Dan McConell
                  IMAF, inc. Board of Directors


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Pauls bill is in the mail...

My personal opinion is that -all- the groups should be at the 1st symposium.  Why?  Simple.  Every group involved will both benifit and lose from it.  If youre not there, you only stand to lose.

Benifits - 
- higher exposure for their group, 
- re-exposure to techniques they havent seen in a while or have never seen.
- potential to increase their student/school base
-chance to demonstrate their skills and visions
-chance to increase seminar bookings
-alliances will be formed

Loses - 
-students/schools may change affiliations
-you may fall flat on your face.

The Kenpo folks have a saying "Time will either promote or expose you".

I do not expect to see the estemed Jeff Delaney there...he has too much to lose, and his 'empire' is rapidly shrinking.  Mired in multiple scandels and his senior members jumping left and right.

You can all look at it as a "put up or shut up" event (which it is). You can also look at it in a more positive way, a chance for your group to shine.  IMHO the IMAF inc should encourage ALL of the MOTTs to be there.  It would give them a lot of good PR.  Another plus might be the establishment or reestablishment of a number of relationships and communications chanels.

Just My thoughts...which usually end up with me in hot water.  Ah well.

Peace Yall.


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *I was not trying to debate or argue or even disagree. I was only
> restating a point.
> 
> 
> "You can disagree all you want, but that does not alter the fact that neither Delaney nor the other MoTTs are accepted as the leaders of Modern Arnis by some people outside of the respective groups that these folks lead."
> 
> -I wasn't in disagreement with you, in fact I agree. This will always be the case due to ego and whatnot.
> 
> "It points toward some work that needs to be done to "correct" that impression."
> 
> -I agree again. There is always work to be done.
> 
> "You as a member of the IMAF, Inc and a Board of Directors member, have a vested interest in this and there are others with vested interest and a different point of view. "
> 
> -Of course, there are always different points of view.
> 
> 
> "I am sure that some people may very well accept your invitation to see and work with the IMAF, Inc leaders, others will not. Some people are waiting to see if Delaney and the other MoTTs are going to present at the Symposium. "
> 
> -Again I say, why wait. One can find events at modernarnis.net and go see now. Just because someone does or does not go to the Symp. does not prove or disprove anything. There are ample times and places to check things out for yourself long before the symp..
> 
> Guro Dan McConnell
> IMAF,inc. Board of Directors *



Hey Dan,

I love this one, we are in total agreement.

BTW, are you going to come up for Bram's Gunting Seminar on September 29?  

The date is being revised because of several institutuional requests (read LEO and Reserve MP).  The Saturday schedule is closed to the general public, but Sunday in Lockport is open for everyone.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Mao

Kaith,

 "If youre not there, you only stand to lose."

-I disagree. One stands to win if they have their own event going on at the same time.


'You can all look at it as a "put up or shut up" event (which it is)."

-This is what it sound like more and more. Sounds a bit antagonistic. I don't have anything to prove. I have found that people generally respond much better if you are positive with them.

" IMHO the IMAF inc should encourage ALL of the MOTTs to be there. It would give them a lot of good PR. "

-We get good PR now. In the large scheme of things, there are very few people who would disagree. With the way it is being hyped, the symp. may not sound like a friendly gathering to some, if not many. Your not in any hot h2o where I'm concerned.  

Dr. Barber,

I don't know what events I'll make it to for a while, perhaps up to 11/2 yrs.. I am being promoted and my schedule will change big time in two days.


                        Dan McConnell
              IMAF, inc. Board of Directors


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *Pauls bill is in the mail...
> 
> My personal opinion is that -all- the groups should be at the 1st symposium.  Why?  Simple.  Every group involved will both benifit and lose from it.  If youre not there, you only stand to lose.
> 
> Benifits -
> - higher exposure for their group,
> - re-exposure to techniques they havent seen in a while or have never seen.
> - potential to increase their student/school base
> -chance to demonstrate their skills and visions
> -chance to increase seminar bookings
> -alliances will be formed
> 
> Loses -
> -students/schools may change affiliations
> -you may fall flat on your face.
> 
> The Kenpo folks have a saying "Time will either promote or expose you".
> 
> I do not expect to see the estemed Jeff Delaney there...he has too much to lose, and his 'empire' is rapidly shrinking.  Mired in multiple scandels and his senior members jumping left and right.
> 
> You can all look at it as a "put up or shut up" event (which it is). You can also look at it in a more positive way, a chance for your group to shine.  IMHO the IMAF inc should encourage ALL of the MOTTs to be there.  It would give them a lot of good PR.  Another plus might be the establishment or reestablishment of a number of relationships and communications chanels.
> 
> Just My thoughts...which usually end up with me in hot water.  Ah well.
> 
> Peace Yall.  *



Nicely put Bob.  There are definate pros and cons to attending and not attending the Symposium.  Each individual has to make their own mind up about being there and/or presenting.  On the other hand the Symposium is not just a "put up or shut up" situation.  It is an opportunity for all of us to meet and talk face to face.  It is an opportunity for all of us to see and train with people who represent the art of Modern Arnis and are coming at it from different perspectives and time periods.  There are some beautiful benefits that can be derived from attending the event.

It might be helpful and enlightening if we began to hear from some of the people who are planning to attend.  Granted that there is a need for some more information from me, which I will post as it is developed with regard to the exact location and cost,
but if we can agree that in theory no one will have to mortgage their home or sell their first born male child to attend - the date is firm - July 11, 12 and 13, 2002.  How many people want to be there?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## arnisador

Thanks Mr. McConell, that does help. Congratulations on your upcoming promotion!


----------



## Cruentus

MAO: 





> Just take time to talk to them before you make them sound so bad. I thought you knew some of them better than that. There are so many ways to contact them that it is silly not to.



I'm not trying to make anyone look bad at all, but I do want an answer to my original question. 

Does the IMAF Inc. believe that they are the only ones with Professors complete art (at the highest level of knowledge) , or does the IMAF Inc. recognize that they are one group of leaders out of the many that are a part of Modern Arnis as a whole?

I want the question answered, and I think that the IMAF, Inc., as leaders, owe it to all of us who have put our blood, sweat, and tears into the art a public answer or statement as to the stance on this issue. 

I am sorry, but I really I can't see myself visiting or attending an IMAF, Inc seminar or sponsered event until I know what I am attending, and what the ethics are of the group that I am visiting.

It is nothing personal either, and it is not related to the past. I'm not still upset about the past, but I am concerned about the present. As of yet, I don't know where the IMAF, Inc. stands as a group in terms of their opinions on how they fit in as leaders.

There are a lot of people in the IMAF, Inc. group that I like, but that is irrelevent. I'm not making character judgements on individuals, and this is not personal against any one individual. 

I just want to know the answer to my original question, so I can make a decision about where I stand in relationship to the IMAF, Inc. I would like to see this answer made public, so others know where they stand also. 

I don't think I am asking for to great of a request.

  :apv:


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *Kaith,
> 
> "If youre not there, you only stand to lose."
> 
> -I disagree. One stands to win if they have their own event going on at the same time.
> 
> 
> 'You can all look at it as a "put up or shut up" event (which it is)."
> 
> -This is what it sound like more and more. Sounds a bit antagonistic. I don't have anything to prove. I have found that people generally respond much better if you are positive with them.
> 
> " IMHO the IMAF inc should encourage ALL of the MOTTs to be there. It would give them a lot of good PR. "
> 
> -We get good PR now. In the large scheme of things, there are very few people who would disagree. With the way it is being hyped, the symp. may not sound like a friendly gathering to some, if not many. Your not in any hot h2o where I'm concerned.
> 
> Dr. Barber,
> 
> I don't know what events I'll make it to for a while, perhaps up to 11/2 yrs.. I am being promoted and my schedule will change big time in two days.
> 
> 
> Dan McConnell
> IMAF, inc. Board of Directors *



Hello Dan,

Congratulations on your promotion and I understand time and responsibilty restraints.  

With regard to the "put up or shut up" idea.  That is not and never has been the primary theme that has driven the "smyp" forward.  Most of the people with whom I have communicated off-forum(s) are excited about the prospect of having an opportunity to see and train with several of the prospective instructors.  Time, distance, travel costs and other factors have not always been favorable.  You have made more of this aspect of the "symp" than anyone else.

I was quite positive about hosting this event in the past and I am greatly encouraged over the past two weeks with the responses and e-mails that I have received and actually several people are looking forward to you presenting because they like your style.  So you have generated some publicity.

A lot of the same kind of nay-saying and bad-mouthing preceded the first Kenpo Grathering of Eagles in 1999.  The major prediction was that this was going to be a fest to "beat up on" the late GM Ed Parker and his IKKA , because a major player in the organization of the event was GM Al Tracy.  Lo and behold, the GOEI went down without a single major dispute and the GOEII in 2001 was bigger and better.  It was not a "big old love fest", however it was a great opportunity for people to get together, show one another their take on Kenpo/Kempo and Kajukenbo, plus some Tai Chi, Eskrima and Arnis got thrown in besides.

If you think that there is disagreemnt within the very small art of Modern Arnis, try dealing with kenpoists!  People will attend the "symp" or stay away according to their own needs and perceptions - however correct or incorreect they may be.  If you want to sit in the middle of this forum and predict negative things, go for it!  The bottom line is that I am moving forward and putting this event together for all of those people who want to and are willing to attend.   To use a paraphrase: those who attend have nothing to prove to those who stay away!

Of course, anyone can now plan their own event and set up for the same weekend as the "symp".  More power to them.  Anyone can "... have their own event going...", but what is really being "won" when one stays away from the "symp"?  I would suggest - not very much - because one is merely preaching to the already committed followers.

No one should come to the "symp" to prove anything... they   should attend to learn form others and to see how varied the art of Modern Arnis really is at this point in time.  Whether or not the MoTTs and or Delaney attend the "symp" it will go on at the appointed time and place.

I believe that you dismissed Paul's comment just a bit too causally with your '**** stirrer' opening in your response.  Even though I would not agree with everything that he said, I read it as an honest statement of his concerns.  Put his comments aginst a long list of others and going back to your own responses to some posts, I would suggest that the IMAF, Inc has a public relations problem with some people outside of the organization.
As a board member, you can ignore these comments, belittle them or take them to heart and try to work a new set of policy and mission statements that address the concerns expressed.  

It is not my place to tell what and how to go about your duties as a board member because I am not registered with the IMAF, Inc.
My comments are for your consideration and given as honest suggestions.  All suggestions and advise can be rejected by the receiver.

To simply ASSume that all is well for the IMAF and that only a few people are unhappy with the statements posted on the IMAF,Inc. website is a mistake, in my estimation.  The IMAF Board should consider the statements that have been made within numerous posts over several threads on this and other forums.  Then the board members can decide on a course of action, which could include changing nothing.  

Now that I said all of that, I am finished with the matter.  I "symp - ly" hope that some good things will be generated from all of these posts.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Mao

Brian Johns and I have answered many questions on this forum. I'll not revisit past issues that have been answered. It is too easy to get in touch with the IMAF and it's leaders to go on with it here. Our answers have aparently not sufficed even though we are on the Board. Paul should have all the phone #'s from past camps. If he doesn't, Tim does and Paul is in Tims group so that is a no brainer. I harbor no ill will nor do I bad mouth or speak negatively about the proposed symp.. If that is unclear, then hear this, I sincerely hope good comes of the symp.. It is a good idea for everyone to meet. It is a big world out there away from our pc's and we should seek every avenue to have our questions answered and not confine them to this forum. I will no longer partake in antagonistic conversation. I'd rather be friends than enemies. I realize that there are some who will not be appeased no matter what is said. That's too bad. I wish them well. I'm moving on.

                 Dan McConnell
        IMAF, inc. board of Directors


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *Brian Johns and I have answered many questions on this forum. I'll not revisit past issues that have been answered. It is too easy to get in touch with the IMAF and it's leaders to go on with it here. Our answers have aparently not sufficed even though we are on the Board. Paul should have all the phone #'s from past camps. If he doesn't, Tim does and Paul is in Tims group so that is a no brainer. I harbor no ill will nor do I bad mouth or speak negatively about the proposed symp.. If that is unclear, then hear this, I sincerely hope good comes of the symp.. It is a good idea for everyone to meet. It is a big world out there away from our pc's and we should seek every avenue to have our questions answered and not confine them to this forum. I will no longer partake in antagonistic conversation. I'd rather be friends than enemies. I realize that there are some who will not be appeased no matter what is said. That's too bad. I wish them well. I'm moving on.
> 
> Dan McConnell
> IMAF, inc. board of Directors *



Hello Dan,

Excellent response, thanks.  I am doing this matter as I said before.  My efforst are to get this Symposium going and working to make it as successful as I can.  Of course the ulitmate results will depend on the people who actually attend as participants and as instructors.  One group can not succed without the other.

As for calling or talking to the MoTTs.  Since I have written to Dr. Schea and Ken Smith and I have not received a reply from either in 2 months, I consider the matter closed until one of them or another MoTT contacts me.  If that does not hapen, it simply does not happen.  There are a couple of spots being held open for the MoTTs and Jeff Delaney.  I will close off those positions early next year because my intention is to have 16-20 instructors, maximum. 

I had mentioned on one if not two other occassions in the past that I had sent messages to the IMAF Inc. website and specificly Dr. Schea.  I was follwing up on a comment made by Dan Anderson about the IMAF Inc leadership not responding to some people.  That is their choice to make and I accept their 
non- response as a strong indication of intent.  

Say what you will about Jeff Delaney, however be aware that he did respond to my e-mail announcement and invitation to participate.  We exchanged a couple of e-mails.  He has not committed to being at the Symposium, but he has kept the door open.  

From My Presepctive, Dan, if you follow through and attend the Symposium, you will be representing yourself and your school.  If you choose to also represent the IMAF Inc. you will tell me that when I ask for bios and seminar topics rom each prespective instructor.

My goal from here on is get the word out about the Symposium, to get as many people as are interested in this idea to the event itself, to make sure that the facilities are large enough to accomedate the people in attendence and then just stand back and let the instructors and participants interact, naturally.

Professor is gone and a new era is developing.  We can particpate in that development, sit back and watch it or retreat from it and wallow in the past.  Everyone will be making their own decisions.

It has become very evident throughout the various posts on the different threads that there really is very little chance of a new singlular leadership developing under any single person, however there are enough talented Modern Arnis instructors for the art to prosper and grow.  It is going in the direction of Kenpo/Kempo with lots of groups and some excellent players.

Good luck to all of you and I hope to see you in July 2003 at the Modern Arnis Symposium.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## bloodwood

Many of the problems with leadership in Modern Arnis can be traced back to when the Professor first became ill. He named JD and Dr. Schea co-successors and promoted the Motts. I believe the Professor thought he would recover and JD and DR Schea were chosen because they were organizing and helping Remy run his extensive seminar and camp schedule. There job was to keep things going until the Professor was ready to get back on the road. As for the MOTTS being promoted and set up as a group to run and head the organization, I don't believe this was Remy's intention because they were still under JD and DR Schea. They became a ruling body only after the IMAF split. Had the Professor believed he was going to die, I believe he may have made different decisions. When he did know he would not make it, what he had set in motion had taken on a life of it's own and ran like a freight train. There is no will to speak of, so we only know of Professor's last wishes from those who visited with him at the end. And this information varies greatly.
Even if Professor decided to put something in writhing in the end, many would have disputed it due to the nature of his illness.
The temporary holders of the flame decided to keep it for their own. Remy's flame should not be hoarded but held high to light the way for all the children of Modern Arnis.


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Many of the problems with leadership in Modern Arnis can be traced back to when the Professor first became ill. He named JD and Dr. Schea co-successors and promoted the Motts. I believe the Professor thought he would recover and JD and DR Schea were chosen because they were organizing and helping Remy run his extensive seminar and camp schedule. There job was to keep things going until the Professor was ready to get back on the road. As for the MOTTS being promoted and set up as a group to run and head the organization, I don't believe this was Remy's intention because they were still under JD and DR Schea. They became a ruling body only after the IMAF split. Had the Professor believed he was going to die, I believe he may have made different decisions. When he did know he would not make it, what he had set in motion had taken on a life of it's own and ran like a freight train. There is no will to speak of, so we only know of Professor's last wishes from those who visited with him at the end. And this information varies greatly.
> Even if Professor decided to put something in writhing in the end, many would have disputed it due to the nature of his illness.
> The temporary holders of the flame decided to keep it for their own. Remy's flame should not be hoarded but held high to light the way for all the children of Modern Arnis. *



Bloodwood, I want to disagree on just one point, the problems began long before Prorfessor became ill.  The problems were endemic to the lack of a formal organiztional structure of Modern Arnis under Professor's leadership.  In the 70's, 80's and 90's numerous people stepped forward and tried to help organize a formal structuture for the IMAF under Professor's technical leadership.  He rejected all attempts to have a formal organization put into place.  That is the true root of all of the problems... it stems from a lack of structured leadership and organzation.

The plus side of IMAF, Inc. under Dr. Schea, is that they are attempting to do what professor never would allow anyone to do during his tenure here in the USA.  There are some good reasons for that position from his point of view, but the results are chaos, confusion and a lot more in-fighting than there might have other-wise been.

Go back and check out some of my posts and those of Dan Anderson under the "food fight" thread.  Look back at all of the titles that Professor handed out and abandoned.  The evidence trail is out there to be followed and understood.  This current problems has been a long time in the making.  

Plan to come to the Symposium, next year.  Meet and train with the folks who will be there.  You will have a much better understanding about just how vast and diversified Modern Arnis has become over the 4 decades of its development.  You will also realize that all of the development was not done by Professor Presas, alone.  There are offshoots and hybrids that are both very exciting and extremely viable.  

The vitality of Modern Arnis will be on display in July 2003, in a manner  that has never been seen before the Symposium.  Many of the top innovators and skilled technicians will be there!  The potential instructional coverage spans 40 years and includes people who studied with Professor in he Philippines.  This kind of historical retrospective has never happened before in Modern Arnis.  

The Symposium is going to be a watershed event.  I hope that you can "see" it and that you want to be part of it.  The past is done and it never be undone, it can never be changed!    We can learn from the past or we will be condemned  to repeat it; the future is out there, waiting to be shaped and enjoyed.  Let's move forward!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## bloodwood

Did the Professor ever say to you or anyone else out there why he would not approve a formal organized structure for leadership and ranking? Did it go against the grain of Go With the Flow and put restrictions on Professor's loose life style, or was he able to control things better with random promotions that had many people beholding to him for one reason or another. I see what you're saying about problems going way back to the beginning and I guess all those high promotions over the years have been stacking up to cause the present state of affairs. 
If the Professor couldn't do it, or just didn't want to, there's no way it will happen now. The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper. As you said lets move on. 
As for the symposium, if I'm clear I plan on attending.


----------



## Emptyglass

Hello everyone:

What an interesting and varied discussion! So many opinions and statements from so many camps. As an interested partcipant I would like to comment on 2 posts that have surfaced in this thread so far.

First:

"Tapi Tapi helps the student learn to flow from one movement or lock etc. to another. We do not use the term as a blanket statement to cover all of the art. There are still the "traditionals" among many other aspects to the art. Tapi tapi, generally speaking, takes the student from lock to lock to strike to bait and so on. It is not just a matter of hit for hit, there's more to it than that. For many, it is an experiencial portion of the art. To simply say that it is the flow or that it is any one of the traditionals is to oversimplify. Of course one seeks to flow in terms of tapi tapi, but one can apply the flow to many other aspects as well, and not to just modern arnis. Did that help?"

Guro Dan McConell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors

 - Actually, Guro McConell it doesn't help me much in terms of an explanation. It may simply be a lack of understanding on my part (quite possible) and I say this with no disrespect intended, but what you are describing sounds precisely like the Flow concept that Professor taught in summer camps and seminars in the early and mid-90's. Also, Tapi-Tapi (or tapik-tapik?) was shown in the seminars I attended as a counter-for-counter training drill at that time. I also attended a 2-day training camp in North Carolina held in Irwin Carmichael's school around that time which featured (among others) Bobby Taboada and Professor Presas with my friend and training partner Tim Kashino. The relationship of Tapi-Tapi and Balintawak was discussed at that time during meals and training and I gathered that Tapi-Tapi (as it was being shown at that time) was a basic training drill for Balintawak Escrima. Since both Professor and Grandmaster Taboada trained in Balintawak under the legendary Anciong Bacon this made perfect sense to me.

As for saying it is an experiencial portion of the art, that kind of statment makes me very wary when I hear it from an instructor of any discipline or educational process and is the primary reason I wrote this post. As for oversimplifying, I have learned that in the martial arts, the even the most complex techinques and concepts are built from very simple/explainable key ideas that are rooted in the immutable laws of physics. Perhaps it's just the Kenpoist in me but that is my belief and I have seen nothing to dissuade me from that idea so far.

On a side note I find it very interesting that the International Modern Arnis Federation (IMAF) from my time in Professor Presas' presence has now become IMAF, inc. I would gather they are not the same organization, or are they? Some information on that would be very appreciated.

"It might be helpful and enlightening if we began to hear from some of the people who are planning to attend. Granted that there is a need for some more information from me, which I will post as it is developed with regard to the exact location and cost,
but if we can agree that in theory no one will have to mortgage their home or sell their first born male child to attend - the date is firm - July 11, 12 and 13, 2002. How many people want to be there?"

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 - Dr. Barber - me for one! I wouldn't miss so many high-quality instructors of the FMA in one place for the world.

Thanks very much,

Richard Curren


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Did the Professor ever say to you or anyone else out there why he would not approve a formal organized structure for leadership and ranking? Did it go against the grain of Go With the Flow and put restrictions on Professor's loose life style, or was he able to control things better with random promotions that had many people beholding to him for one reason or another. I see what you're saying about problems going way back to the beginning and I guess all those high promotions over the years have been stacking up to cause the present state of affairs.
> If the Professor couldn't do it, or just didn't want to, there's no way it will happen now. The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper. As you said lets move on.
> As for the symposium, if I'm clear I plan on attending. *



Bloodwood,

In 'My' experience, Remy Presas, would have people make these suggestions and he would be all for the idea. And then the politics would become an issue even before it could be executed. There were may things in my opinion that lead to this. Remy Presas did not like to upset people. And as is the nature, if I suggested something as a low ranked person in one area of the country, others with the same rank or higher rank in others area of the country would go, 'Who is this bozo?' and, 'Why should we listen to his plan, here is my plan.' I believe that the professor did not implement one completely do to this character flaw of always wanted to be nice to be.

This does not mean he always was nice, but the older he got, the more, in my opinion, he regretted the violence more. Modern Arnis, is less violent then many of the traditional FMA's, in that Remy Presas had people targeting the canes, and not the actual body parts as targets.

Now this is from my experience, and as anyone can tell you no two people had the same relationship with Remy Presas, so if yours differ, feel free to post your opinion and experience as well.

Rich


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> 
> *Hello everyone:
> 
> What an interesting and varied discussion! So many opinions and statements from so many camps.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Since both Professor and Grandmaster Taboada trained in Balintawak under the legendary Anciong Bacon this made perfect sense to me.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Thanks very much,
> 
> Richard Curren *



Emptyglass AKA Richard Curran,

From my understanding of your above statement, you believe that both Remy Presas and Bobby Taboada, trained with Anciong Bacon. I believe this to be incorrect.

Remy Presas started his Balintawak training with Toto Moncal, a left hander just like Remy, and Moncal introduced Remy Presas to Timor Maranga. Timor Maranga was a student of Anciong Bacon's and did introduce Remy Presas to GM Bacon. From my understanding that Remy Presas not only trained a lot with Moncal and Maranga, but also with Bacon. The amount of training time, I do not know of at this time.

Bobby Taboada, Started and learned a lot from Pilo Vilez. Pilo Vilez and Dom Lopez were some of the more known students of Joe Villasin. Joe Villasin did train with GM Bacon. The information I have is that Taboada did train with Vilez and Villasin, but not Anciong. If I am wrong, please let me know, and also your source so I can verify for my personal history.

Now you say the both trained under Anciong Bacon, so since I train with Manong Ted Buot who also trained and taught at Anciong Bacon School, does this mean that I also trained under Anciong Bacon?

Note: I am not trying to challenge you or anyone else on this, I am only trying to resolve a difference in information and possible understanding that I have.

Thank you for your time.

Rich


References:
Remy Presas lineage - Remy Presas - Rocky Paswik (posts Rocky has made that line up with what I heard from the other two myself) and Ted Buot.

Bobby Taboada lineage - a Taboada web-page and Ted Buot via discussions with Toboada.


----------



## Mao

I could give a more difinitive answer to the tapi tapi question, but so many people have so many diff. opinions that it would neither edify nor help the topic get settled, so I won't. Some people won't be satisfied regardless of the answer. I see that you have made 4 posts so far. Perhaps you have been reading the previous posts/threads on the issue. Perhaps not, but you could find more opinions by reading them.
  As for my saying that it is an experiencial portion of the art for some, that is to say that for some, the only explanation is to get in there and try it. They may niether understand by way of verbal explanation or even by watching. They just gotta do it.


"  I have learned that in the martial arts, the even the most complex techinques and concepts are built from very simple/explainable key ideas that are rooted in the immutable laws of physics."

-I agree and it is. You can find these answers in earlier posts as well.

"On a side note I find it very interesting that the International Modern Arnis Federation (IMAF) from my time in Professor Presas' presence has now become IMAF, inc. I would gather they are not the same organization, or are they? "

-They are not.

             Guro Dan McConnell
        IMAF , inc. Board of Directors


----------



## arnisador

The tapi-tapi does indeed come from Balintawak. Ted Buot teaches it also.

There's a lot of info. in this forum on how the two IMAFs came about! If you have the time to dig you'll find a lot of stuff on it.


----------



## Cruentus

I'll restate the question:

Does the IMAF, Inc. believe that they are the only ones with Professors complete art (and the only ones sanctioned by professor to to teach his complete art), or does the IMAF, Inc. recognize that they are one group of leaders out of many that are a part of the Modern Arnis family?

This has been an interesting discussion, but nobody from the IMAF, Inc. has been able to answer my question. I will not allow myself to be blown off as if I am trying to be antagonistic, or a s**t stirrer. I honestly want an answer to the question.

Understand that before this thread, that question has NEVER been presented. This isn't about the past, or about resentments, about personal vendettas, or about different opinions on Tapi-Tapi. This is about the present and the future; it is about where the IMAF, Inc. thinks they fit in in terms of leadership.

Currently, with the information that is available, one is led to make some logical deductions (as I explained previously on this thread) that I feel may be inaccurate. Before I can comfortably attend or visit any IMAF, Inc. activities, I think it is fair to ask the above question PUBLICALLY, so that there will be no misunderstandings as to the motives of the group.

I am not just going to call someone, or attend/support an event unless a public statement is made, answering my question. 

If you need to know why, look at the Jeff Delaney example. Jeff Delaney, Lisa McManus, and others have proven to be lier's and frauds. They came right out and stated their claims from the beginning; so deciding whether or not I'll attend their events is a no brainer. I have already decided to personally make sure everyone knows that him and his group is fraudulent, I didn't have to make one phone call to make this decision

I just need to know what IMAF, Inc. is claiming so I can decide whether or not I would like a positive relationship with that group. I need it to be public info so people won't doubt my motives for having a positive relationship with the group. It is just that simple.

And to say that the IMAF, Inc. is not claiming anything, or to differ answering my question, is crap. There is enough implied info that is out there, and to imply a lie (if that is what is being intentionally done) is the same as outright lying.

If I can't get a public answer on this forum, then I will email and write IMAF, Inc. myself. I will try to make a few phone calls as well, but an over the phone answer will not be enough; as I said this answer should be publically stated.

Still waiting for an answer,
PAUL
 :apv:


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *
> 
> Emptyglass AKA Richard Curran,
> 
> From my understanding of your above statement, you believe that both Remy Presas and Bobby Taboada, trained with Anciong Bacon. I believe this to be incorrect.
> 
> Remy Presas started his Balintawak training with Toto Moncal, a left hander just like Remy, and Moncal introduced Remy Presas to Timor Maranga. Timor Maranga was a student of Anciong Bacon's and did introduce Remy Presas to GM Bacon. From my understanding that Remy Presas not only trained a lot with Moncal and Maranga, but also with Bacon. The amount of training time, I do not know of at this time.
> 
> Bobby Taboada, Started and learned a lot from Pilo Vilez. Pilo Vilez and Dom Lopez were some of the more known students of Joe Villasin. Joe Villasin did train with GM Bacon. The information I have is that Taboada did train with Vilez and Villasin, but not Anciong. If I am wrong, please let me know, and also your source so I can verify for my personal history.
> 
> Now you say the both trained under Anciong Bacon, so since I train with Manong Ted Buot who also trained and taught at Anciong Bacon School, does this mean that I also trained under Anciong Bacon?
> 
> Note: I am not trying to challenge you or anyone else on this, I am only trying to resolve a difference in information and possible understanding that I have.
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> References:
> Remy Presas lineage - Remy Presas - Rocky Paswik (posts Rocky has made that line up with what I heard from the other two myself) and Ted Buot.
> 
> Bobby Taboada lineage - a Taboada web-page and Ted Buot via discussions with Toboada. *



Hi Rich,

I believe that you are not entirely correct with regard to your lineages.  I have information from both Professor Presas and Bobby Taboada about their training and instructors.  In addition, Professor personally approved in 1989, that portion of my lineage chart with regard to his instructors and the Modern Arnis lineage that came down to me.

For Professor:

Leon Presas - his grandfather - Palis-palis and Crossada in the Espada y Daga format.

Also see tape 6 of the orginal Modern Arnis series recorded by the Clapps in the mid 1980's.  Listen to his explanations about who first taught him the art of arnis.  I believe that he also mentions this on his Black Belt Video Series - tape 2, if I remember it correctly.

He later trained in Balintawak under Rodelpho Moncol, Temeteo Maranga and finally Venacio Bacon in that order.

In an interview published in May/June 1989 issue of Karate international, page 14, Professsor gives the same order of instructors, however he does not specificly name his grandfather.
But in the December 1990 issue of Inside Kung Fu, on page 35, Professor names Leon Presas, as his first instructor in the art of arnis.  He very specificly states that his grandfather was a veteran of Spanish-American War and that he was trained in his grandfathers "...style of arnis, espada y daga (sword and dagger) when I was six years old."  He later explains that he trained with Moncal, Maranga and then the GM Bacon, himself for 4 years.  {Those pieces of information are found on page 36 of the article}

Your information regarding GM Bobby Taboada is also not entirely accurate.  Since GM Bacon, did not teach any begining students, with the possible exceptions of GM Ted Buot and GM Dom Lopez, Taboada had to pass through the same type of graduated structure that Professor had encountered.  His lineage was through Teofilio Velez to Jose Villasin to GM Venancio "Anciong" Bacon.    

If GM Taboada did not study with the late Balintawak GM Bacon, then why is he shown in an 8mm training film shot by GM Johnny Chiuten, sparring with the GM?  If he was never part of the innner circle of Bacon students, why is he recognized as such by GM Chiuten as well as Chito Velez, the son of the late GM Teofilio Velez?  Why would Professor Presas, acknowledge GM Taboada as fellow student of his teacher GM Bacon, if such were not the case?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Did the Professor ever say to you or anyone else out there why he would not approve a formal organized structure for leadership and ranking? Did it go against the grain of Go With the Flow and put restrictions on Professor's loose life style, or was he able to control things better with random promotions that had many people beholding to him for one reason or another. I see what you're saying about problems going way back to the beginning and I guess all those high promotions over the years have been stacking up to cause the present state of affairs.
> If the Professor couldn't do it, or just didn't want to, there's no way it will happen now. The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper. As you said lets move on.
> As for the symposium, if I'm clear I plan on attending. *



Dear Bloodwood,

Rich Parsons has answered your question beautifully and I really can not add any profound new information to his statements.  The key thing to remember is that there has always been a great deal of in-fighting within Modern Arnis.   While professor was alive no one really met anyone else outside of a seminar or camp from different areas of the country.  Virtually everything centered on Professor.  That is what makes the 2003 Symposium is important and different.  Everyone who attends will be meeting people that they have never met before.  Some of will be meeting people that we have only heard about, most of us will be meeting people whom we have Never Heard About!  But the bottom line is that many of these people will prove to be excellent Modern arnis instructors and technicians.  It is time to move on, to move forward and explore the art as we have never done before.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Bloodwood,
"Did the Professor ever say to you or anyone else out there why he would not approve a formal organized structure for leadership and ranking? Did it go against the grain of Go With the Flow and put restrictions on Professor's loose life style, or was he able to control things better with random promotions that had many people beholding to him for one reason or another."

He would always sidestep that question.  I think your second statement is more like it, from my observations.

"The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper."

Yes, yes, yes, and if I didn't make myself clear, yes.

Richard - 
"Actually, Guro McConell it doesn't help me much in terms of an explanation. It may simply be a lack of understanding on my part (quite possible) and I say this with no disrespect intended, but what you are describing sounds precisely like the Flow concept that Professor taught in summer camps and seminars in the early and mid-90's."

Yes, it sounds like it to me as well, however, it makes a great deal of sense in this perspective.  Either RP used that term to describe the overall concept of the Flow or the MOTT's have.  This *greatly* differentiates between having mastery over one drill (tapi-tapi) and mastering a concept wihc includes not only one but all drills.

Rich Parsons - (re ranking and the like)
"In 'My' experience, Remy Presas, would have people make these suggestions and he would be all for the idea. And then the politics would become an issue even before it could be executed."

I'd disagree on the reason being politics.  He just listened, agreed and then went about his business getting more seminars.  Check your memory and you'll find out what was important to him, - spreading the word on Moedrn Arnis and getting seminars booked.  Those he got done wiht amazing efficiency.  The rest was sufficiently unimportant to do anything with.  This is by his actions, not by his words.

Paul -
"Does the IMAF, Inc. believe that they are the only ones with Professors complete art (and the only ones sanctioned by professor to to teach his complete art), or does the IMAF, Inc. recognize that they are one group of leaders out of many that are a part of the Modern Arnis family?"

So far, Dan McConnell and Brian Johns are the only ones publicly talking from IMAF, Inc. and from what I get, the second possibility is the one held by the group.  The MOTT's were the last group before RP's death to be urged to carry on the torch.  Actually, I think I am mistaken as he spoke with his children (founders of MARPPIO) to do the same and said to my face, _"Danny, get involved."_  The only group which appears to give that indication is JD's IMAF and he isn't publicly saying yay or nay.

"I just need to know what IMAF, Inc. is claiming so I can decide whether or not I would like a positive relationship with that group. I need it to be public info so people won't doubt my motives for having a positive relationship with the group. It is just that simple.

And to say that the IMAF, Inc. is not claiming anything, or to differ answering my question, is crap. There is enough implied info that is out there, and to imply a lie (if that is what is being intentionally done) is the same as outright lying.

If I can't get a public answer on this forum, then I will email and write IMAF, Inc. myself. I will try to make a few phone calls as well, but an over the phone answer will not be enough; as I said this answer should be publically stated."

I hope you can get one.  The key point I have gotten from IMAF, INc. is the madate they have gotten from RP is their guiding light.  I, personally, have gotten no statements of superiority or _we are the only ones_  from Dr. Schea, Chuck Gauss, Gaby Roloff, Brian Zawilinski or Ken Smith.   I do wish they would either make a public statement on the matter or appoint Dan McConnell as their spokesman as he is willing to publicly communicate.

All for now,

Dan Anderson


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> 
> *
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> I believe that you are not entirely correct with regard to your lineages.  I have information from both Professor Presas and Bobby Taboada about their training and instructors.  In addition, Professor personally approved in 1989, that portion of my lineage chart with regard to his instructors and the Modern Arnis lineage that came down to me.
> 
> For Professor:
> 
> Leon Presas - his grandfather - Palis-palis and Crossada in the Espada y Daga format.
> 
> Also see tape 6 of the orginal Modern Arnis series recorded by the Clapps in the mid 1980's.  Listen to his explanations about who first taught him the art of arnis.  I believe that he also mentions this on his Black Belt Video Series - tape 2, if I remember it correctly.
> 
> He later trained in Balintawak under Rodelpho Moncol, Temeteo Maranga and finally Venacio Bacon in that order.
> 
> In an interview published in May/June 1989 issue of Karate international, page 14, Professsor gives the same order of instructors, however he does not specificly name his grandfather.
> But in the December 1990 issue of Inside Kung Fu, on page 35, Professor names Leon Presas, as his first instructor in the art of arnis.  He very specificly states that his grandfather was a veteran of Spanish-American War and that he was trained in his grandfathers "...style of arnis, espada y daga (sword and dagger) when I was six years old."  He later explains that he trained with Moncal, Maranga and then the GM Bacon, himself for 4 years.  {Those pieces of information are found on page 36 of the article}
> 
> Your information regarding GM Bobby Taboada is also not entirely accurate.  Since GM Bacon, did not teach any begining students, with the possible exceptions of GM Ted Buot and GM Dom Lopez, Taboada had to pass through the same type of graduated structure that Professor had encountered.  His lineage was through Teofilio Velez to Jose Villasin to GM Venancio "Anciong" Bacon.
> 
> If GM Taboada did not study with the late Balintawak GM Bacon, then why is he shown in an 8mm training film shot by GM Johnny Chiuten, sparring with the GM?  If he was never part of the innner circle of Bacon students, why is he recognized as such by GM Chiuten as well as Chito Velez, the son of the late GM Teofilio Velez?  Why would Professor Presas, acknowledge GM Taboada as fellow student of his teacher GM Bacon, if such were not the case?
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D. *



Dr Barber,

First, thank you for your update.

I never mentioned Leon Presas, because I was an A$$ and ASSumed that everyone knew Remy Presas started first with his Grandfather. The discussion I was trying to further understand was the Balintawak Connection. And yes the order you listed and the time frame is what I have in my knowledge bank I call my head.

As for Bobby Taboada, Thank you for the update and clarification. I was not aware of the Bacon study. I did not mean any disrespect in that he started elsewhere, hell everyone starts somewhere. Thank you for the references. Now, please understand I did not mean to say that it had not happened only what I had in my memory banks. This is good knowledge to have. None of my references stated that Taboada did not train with Bacon, only the he had trained with Vilez and Villasin. :asian: 


My Curran, please except my apologies for the lack of knowledge. I am glad I have gained more today.

Rich


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *. . .
> "The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper."
> Yes, yes, yes, and if I didn't make myself clear, yes.
> . . .
> Rich Parsons - (re ranking and the like)
> "In 'My' experience, Remy Presas, would have people make these suggestions and he would be all for the idea. And then the politics would become an issue even before it could be executed."
> 
> I'd disagree on the reason being politics.  He just listened, agreed and then went about his business getting more seminars.  Check your memory and you'll find out what was important to him, - spreading the word on Moedrn Arnis and getting seminars booked.  Those he got done wiht amazing efficiency.  The rest was sufficiently unimportant to do anything with.  This is by his actions, not by his words.
> . . .
> All for now,
> 
> Dan Anderson *



Dan,

Yes RP was great at getting the seminars, and lining people up for the next swing through the area.

Maybe I took one incident from myself, and applied it across the board. The incident, one of the local instructors, said 'Hey Rich, you are good with computers put something together to help organize this.' I did, and it went nowhere for a lot of the reasons I stated before. Now, I also heard other people talking about trying to help RP do similar things at Seminars and at Camps so I had assumed then that they had gone through something similar to me.

At a later date, when RP asked me himself to help with the Modernaris.com web site. I did get  resistance from everyone involved, I was even told to go away, I could not get my Rank by doing the web page for RP. I had Rank at the time, and would not take more until my local instructors said I was ready. Yes, I did start somewhere and not Directly with a GM. 

So, Dan, While I agree that Remy Was after the next Seminar, and looking to travel around the country, I did have these experiences, as well as some others we could discuss over that beer I am to buy the winner Symposium Slogan Contest. IF I am buying one I might as well but two. 

Thanks

Rich
:asian:


----------



## arnisador

You could have gotten rank for doing the web page.

I understand you wouldn't have wanted it. But the Prof. certainly gave out rank for helping as well as skill. Rank was given out like candy at times.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *You could have gotten rank for doing the web page.
> 
> I understand you wouldn't have wanted it. But the Prof. certainly gave out rank for helping as well as skill. Rank was given out like candy at times. *



GM Presas never offered me Rank for helping, he only asked if I would. It caused me problems. I always seem to get into trouble whenever I try to help out others.

The only Rank I have ever truly been proud of are the following ranks. In  Alphabetical Order:

Student of Manong Ted Buot
Student of Joe Dorris
Student of Master Jeff Owens
Student of Master Jim Power
Student of Grand Master Remy Presas

The last is questionable, from what I hear from others. GM Presas sat on all my Lakan and above certificates to my Last of Lakan Tatlo. I did train and work out with him when he was in Flint, but, nothing like the others on the list or like many of the Datu's or Protégé's. I would have to say I put it there for my own ego sense, but do not deny the others at the same time.

Sincerely

Rich

:asian:


----------



## bloodwood

Just a light hearted look at our current state of affairs.

Just think if there was a symposium while Professor was still here. All  the major players and all those who thought they were somebody in the same room with the Professor at the same time.Just the thought of it could blow the top of your head off. The air would be thick and the a$$ kissing would be in full swing.A fly on the wall with a video camera would make a fortune.


----------



## Emptyglass

Hello everyone:

I'll try and respond in (semi) order...

To Rich Parsons (post 1 and 2):

"My Curran, please except my apologies for the lack of knowledge. I am glad I have gained more today."

Rich

 - Actually Rich, it's Curren, but most people ASSume the more common "an" spelling. As for apology, accepted. I wasn't going to argue with you about it anyway.

To Guro Dan McConnell:

"I could give a more difinitive answer to the tapi tapi question, but so many people have so many diff. opinions that it would neither edify nor help the topic get settled, so I won't. Some people won't be satisfied regardless of the answer. I see that you have made 4 posts so far. Perhaps you have been reading the previous posts/threads on the issue. Perhaps not, but you could find more opinions by reading them.
As for my saying that it is an experiencial portion of the art for some, that is to say that for some, the only explanation is to get in there and try it. They may niether understand by way of verbal explanation or even by watching. They just gotta do it."


 - Actually I was only interested in your opinion on the subject, but I'll settle for your polite decline to answer. Yes, only 4 posts and lots of looking for the last year or so. I thought I should really have something to say before I jumped into this pond. I have indeed read lots of opinions, so I thought I would request some info from one of the IMAF, inc. authorities. Pardon me if such things have been discussed before.Perhaps there should be an IMAF, inc. FAQ. 
As for the experiencial comment, thanks for the clarification. Statements like that tend to raise my eyebrow when I see them so I thought I'd ask.


To Arnisador:

 - Thanks for spelling my name correctly and the confirmation!

To DoctorB:

 - Thanks as always for the info and fine reference material. You saved me a great deal of typing with your response. Salamat po!

To Dan Anderson:

"Yes, it sounds like it to me as well, however, it makes a great deal of sense in this perspective. Either RP used that term to describe the overall concept of the Flow or the MOTT's have. This greatly differentiates between having mastery over one drill (tapi-tapi) and mastering a concept wihc includes not only one but all drills."

Thanks very much. Your input is appreciated!


Regards,

Richard Curren


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## Emptyglass

Rich Parsons:

In your previous post you asked:

"Now you say the both trained under Anciong Bacon, so since I train with Manong Ted Buot who also trained and taught at Anciong Bacon School, does this mean that I also trained under Anciong Bacon?"

I'm not sure how you would come to this seemingly illogical conclusion from my original statement that both Professor R. Presas and GM B. Toboada both trained under Venancio "Anciong" Bacon. What you're proposing would be like saying (for example) that if you were a student of Dan Inosanto you would also be able to say that you trained with Bruce Lee? Now you could certainly include Anciong Bacon in the lineage of your instructor Manong Ted Buot and also include his lineage on yours if you desired to create an extended piece of documentation on where the knowledge you possess originated. However, I would have to say that no, you could not claim that you trained under Anciong Bacon unless you were physically in his presence under his tutelage. Sorry if my initial statement was confusing or unclear as that certainly wasn't my intent.

Richard Curren


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## Cruentus

> Originally posted by Dan Anderson: So far, Dan McConnell and Brian Johns are the only ones publicly talking from IMAF, Inc. and from what I get, the second possibility is the one held by the group. The MOTT's were the last group before RP's death to be urged to carry on the torch. Actually, I think I am mistaken as he spoke with his children (founders of MARPPIO) to do the same and said to my face, "Danny, get involved." The only group which appears to give that indication is JD's IMAF and he isn't publicly saying yay or nay.



By using the title "Grandmaster,"  I would say that JD's IMAF does publically say that they are "the ones." They blantently present themselves as being the top dogs sanctioned by Professor, which is obviously Bull***t.

Through the way information has been presented by the IMAF, Inc., I'd say that one could logically deduce that they believe that they are "the ones" ( "the ones" or "top dogs" could be interpreted in different ways, please read above post where I worded myself very carefully). However, the other side of this is that there are a lot of people in the IMAF, Inc. that are old friends of mine, and who I believe are good people. If that group is purposfully propigating that they are the "top dogs," I would have a hard time believing that everyone on board adheres to that same egotism.

So....I am confused, and I think others are also. I just want to once and for all clear things up.    



> I hope you can get one. The key point I have gotten from IMAF, INc. is the madate they have gotten from RP is their guiding light. I, personally, have gotten no statements of superiority or we are the only ones from Dr. Schea, Chuck Gauss, Gaby Roloff, Brian Zawilinski or Ken Smith. I do wish they would either make a public statement on the matter or appoint Dan McConnell as their spokesman as he is willing to publicly communicate.



No statements have been made difinitively one way or the other. It is sort of "up in the air," and I am tired of that. I want to know. The answer to the question is very simple, but what fustrates me (and many others) to no end is that the question isn't even entertained.

It would appear that the answer we have all been waiting for is not going to be addressed by the IMAF, Inc. publically on this  forum. I will now move into phase II: 

Within the next week or two, I will write a letter and E-mail my question to the IMAF, Inc. I will also follow this up with phone calls. Since Dan McConnell said that it should be easy to get a hold of someone, then this should help me get some answers.

Right!?

I will keep inquiring minds posted, and we shall see.

PAUL


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## Cruentus

> Just think if there was a symposium while Professor was still here. All the major players and all those who thought they were somebody in the same room with the Professor at the same time.Just the thought of it could blow the top of your head off. The air would be thick and the a$$ kissing would be in full swing.A fly on the wall with a video camera would make a fortune.


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## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> :: deleted several paragraphs for sake of brevirt; JB ::
> 
> I hope you can get one.  The key point I have gotten from IMAF, INc. is the madate they have gotten from RP is their guiding light.  I, personally, have gotten no statements of superiority or _we are the only ones_  from Dr. Schea, Chuck Gauss, Gaby Roloff, Brian Zawilinski or Ken Smith.   I do wish they would either make a public statement on the matter or appoint Dan McConnell as their spokesman as he is willing to publicly communicate.
> 
> All for now,
> 
> Dan Anderson [/B]



I can agree with all that you stated and I deleted, Dan.  Very well put; however your last paragraph is excellent and right on the money.  Dan has done a very good job of making relavent points for IMAF Inc and they should make him their official spokesman AND give him the information that he will need to speak clearly and factually for them.  I applaude your suggestion.  I also would like to encourage Paul, to keep trying to get the answers to your questions.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Just a light hearted look at our current state of affairs.
> 
> Just think if there was a symposium while Professor was still here. All  the major players and all those who thought they were somebody in the same room with the Professor at the same time.Just the thought of it could blow the top of your head off. The air would be thick and the a$$ kissing would be in full swing.A fly on the wall with a video camera would make a fortune. *



Hello Bloodwood,

Let me be very candid here... IF Professor were still alive, there
WOULD NOT be a Symposium!!!  There are two very simple and clear reasons for my statement:

1.  Since professor was the charismatic leader of Modern Arnis, in addition to being the founder and GM, most of the people followed him - as a person and only tangentually belonged to and supported the organization; therefore, most of the followers of Remy Presas, the leader-man, would never agree to attend an event at which Professor would have to share center stage with his own students.

2.  Professor Presas himself would have never endorsed the Symposium concept.  He thrived on being at the top of the heap and he he never really helped any of his senior students to get recognition outside of the organization.  He would say good things about different people at different IMAF events, but once he left that area of the country he did not mention those people again until he returned to that area.  

Bringing too many of his top people together at an event like this would have diluted his aura and diverted some attention away from him.  You would not have to go to a Symposium to see the "rear-end affection displays".   Simply think back to any seminar or camp that you attended and how some people jocked for seats near him at dinner!

The beauty of the upcoming Symposium is that a lot of people can come together and share their visions of Modern Arnis and no one will be offending the Professor or have their chances for rank advancement smashed.

This is an opportunity to see and work with a number of different people.  It is an opportunity to see how others have grown and diversified the art for themselves.  It is actually an opportunity for us all to take the art to another level, for ourselves.  In effect the Symposium is an opportunity for anyone who attends to make new friends and find out what others are doing.  This event will be primarily about new opportunities to expand the art of Modern Arnis for yourself.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## bloodwood

Your post is well taken and understood, but wasn't the Professor, at the time of his first becoming ill, setting up some of his top students to teach in Europe and spread the art on his behalf? I may be mistaken and these people were merely traveling with him and assisting at the seminars. Maybe you or someone can shed some light on this. Could he have been changing his attitude and starting to spread the wealth during his European tour? I believe several people helped finish the tour, but I'm not sure who. I think JD was one. I know Datu Hartman was there, but after helping the Professor get the proper medical attention he needed, he continued on to Sweden or Denmark to fill seminar commitments of his own. After that Professor's condition and where abouts were all but a blur to most. This is also the time when the $..t hit the fan.


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## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Your post is well taken and understood, but wasn't the Professor, at the time of his first becoming ill, setting up some of his top students to teach in Europe and spread the art on his behalf? I may be mistaken and these people were merely traveling with him and assisting at the seminars. Maybe you or someone can shed some light on this. Could he have been changing his attitude and starting to spread the wealth during his European tour? I believe several people helped finish the tour, but I'm not sure who. I think JD was one. I know Datu Hartman was there, but after helping the Professor get the proper medical attention he needed, he continued on to Sweden or Denmark to fill seminar commitments of his own. After that Professor's condition and where abouts were all but a blur to most. This is also the time when the $..t hit the fan. *



I will defer to someone else regarding the last year that Professor was touring and giving seminars.  In my experiences
with him prior to 1995, he was more inclined to follow the pattern that I described in my post.  I can not tell you that he changed his habits and inclinations in 1999 and 2000, but I also can not say that he had not done so.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## bloodwood

This has nothing to do with my previous post which I still would like someone's input on, but being this thread is IMAF leadership, if you look at the IMAF ad in BB magazine for Sept., apparently if you order video tapes from them you send payment to the IMAF,INC but with JD's address. I think it's time one of these groups got a new name. Also the assistant in the photo with JD is no longer with his org.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> * setting up some of his top students to teach in Europe and spread the art on his behalf? I may be mistaken and these people were merely traveling with him and assisting at the seminars.*



This was a rumor some people tried to start. Remy didn't set up anyone in there own country. He would help set up seminars, but he set up the country for himself. Actually it was my friend Jason Arnold ( a kenpo guy) who opened the door for me in europe. I was trying to set up seminars for Remy in Sweden and Spain.

If Remy was going to put some one in a country it would be to clear the path for himself.

:asian:


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## bloodwood

Thanks for clearing up that issue.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I saw this in the locker room. I feel that it applies to us in the Modern Arnis world.



> _Originally posted by Mickey _
> 
> *Dinosaurs, Dead Beats, and lazy bones
> 
> How many times have you listened to someone who left their art / club / etc, say I knew him when he was , pick color belt here, and I cannot believe that he has been promoted to: pick any rank here?
> 
> 
> These guys that leave and do not train and then come back and hang around with their old instructors for a few hours or a few days and then complain because other people are progressing in 'their' art. If they had trained during their time off, that sometimes accounts for years, then maybe they would not be heavier than they like and have some skills within an art.
> 
> This is not an attack on those that leave a group and train their basement alone or with friends, or with those that open their own independent schools. Unless of course they also complain about people who might have more rank then them.
> 
> Just curious, if I am the only one that wants to walk up to them and say ' SHUT-UP! and train or LEAVE!'.
> 
> Mick *


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## bloodwood

All so true.
But the worst are the ones that come back after a long layoff and try to jump right back in with both feet and make an impact. Most of the people they try to connect with, just scratch their heads and say, who the hell is this and where did they come from. They want things to be the way they were without getting reacquainted with the current participants of their art. They don't want to take the time to blend back into the mainstream.

:flushed:  beware of what you jump into


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## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *All so true.
> But the worst are the ones that come back after a long layoff and try to jump right back in with both feet and make an impact. Most of the people they try to connect with, just scratch their heads and say, who the hell is this and where did they come from. They want things to be the way they were without getting reacquainted with the current participants of their art. They don't want to take the time to blend back into the mainstream.
> 
> :flushed:  beware of what you jump into *



Bloodwood, there is an element of truth with regard to your statement and the comment quoted by Mr. Hartman, from Mickey, however, I would caution both of you and others to beware of those people who have merely left a particular organization, yet continued to train and develop their skills, else where!  

These people might very well be highly skilled, extremely knowledgable instructors in their ow right.  The fact that "they have not been seen" at the organizational training sessions/ schools/seminars and camps by the "orthodox traditionalists" of that particular system should not be confused with ineptness.

There are numerous people within any system or art that we have neither seen nor heard of because they have departed the scene before we arrived.  The fact we are not aware of who they are and what they can do within the art, Does Not, in and of itself does not constitute an inability to do the art.  

Thus, I will again say to everone reading this thread and others on Modern Arnis - the 2003 Symposium is an opportunity for people to meet one another and determine for themselves who among us has 'exceptional' skills in the art or 'excellent', or 'very good',  or 'good' or 'above average' or 'average' or 'poor' or for that matter, 'none'!  

It is an opportunity to find out if someone has a couple of things that your feel would help you in your personal development.  

I would again strees to you and all others reading these posts, talk is cheap, cyber-postings do not equate to actual martial skills and the proof is always going to be determined on the training floor in the final analysis.  

Therefore, I am suggsting that it is time to move beyond what Professor did and said... that is all in the past, it can not and it will not be changed.  Leadership and respect are earned.  At the Symposium, we wll have an opportunity to meet and train with some of the leading people within the art of Modern Arnis and ALL of them trained with Professor Presas.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Kirk

Sounds like it's going the way of EPAK.     Lots of politics involved
in the art now.  It has eventually led to some positive things, but
I think at this point in time, the bad still outweighs the good.


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> 
> *
> 
> Bloodwood, there is an element of truth with regard to your statement and the comment quoted by Mr. Hartman, from Mickey, however, I would caution both of you and others to beware of those people who have merely left a particular organization, yet continued to train and develop their skills, else where!
> 
> These people might very well be highly skilled, extremely knowledgable instructors in their ow right.  The fact that "they have not been seen" at the organizational training sessions/ schools/seminars and camps by the "orthodox traditionalists" of that particular system should not be confused with ineptness.
> 
> There are numerous people within any system or art that we have neither seen nor heard of because they have departed the scene before we arrived.  The fact we are not aware of who they are and what they can do within the art, Does Not, in and of itself does not constitute an inability to do the art.
> 
> Thus, I will again say to everone reading this thread and others on Modern Arnis - the 2003 Symposium is an opportunity for people to meet one another and determine for themselves who among us has 'exceptional' skills in the art or 'excellent', or 'very good',  or 'good' or 'above average' or 'average' or 'poor' or for that matter, 'none'!
> 
> It is an opportunity to find out if someone has a couple of things that your feel would help you in your personal development.
> 
> I would again strees to you and all others reading these posts, talk is cheap, cyber-postings do not equate to actual martial skills and the proof is always going to be determined on the training floor in the final analysis.
> 
> Therefore, I am suggsting that it is time to move beyond what Professor did and said... that is all in the past, it can not and it will not be changed.  Leadership and respect are earned.  At the Symposium, we wll have an opportunity to meet and train with some of the leading people within the art of Modern Arnis and ALL of them trained with Professor Presas.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D. *



DoctorB,

I understand your comments and your desire to have the Modern Arnis community to come together in 2003.

I noticed that Mickey said, * "These guys that leave and do NOT train and then come back and hang around with their old instructors for a few hours or a few days and then complain because other people are progressing in 'their' art." * So, I believe the intent of the original post in the locker room and here were to address this issue for those that did not train.

Mickey also said, * "This is not an attack on those that leave a group and train their basement alone or with friends, or with those that open their own independent schools. Unless of course they also complain about people who might have more rank then them." * Which in my opinion covers your point as well for those that went elsewhere and still trained or taught. That is great. I believe the problem Mickey and others here are talking about are those that complain about people getting promoted over them, when they leave the organization.

For example: If Tim Hartman who had left the IMAF while Remy Presas was still alive, and Remy Presas had been cured and he returned and for example Dr. Schea had been promoted to 6th or even 7th degree in a few years. Would Tim Hartman have had the 'right' to complain about the rank of Dr. Schea?
(* This has some assumptions in this example. The first being that Remy Presas was cured, the second being that Tim Hartman and Remy Presas would not have patched up their differences and the issues that lead to Tim Hartman's leaving. the third being the Dr. Schea had staid and continued to train and advance. *)

This is how I took the posts. I could be wrong, it is just my opinion.

Best Regards

Rich
:asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

By no means am I taking shots at the people who have been still training. When I saw this post I thought of only one person, Rocky Paswik. 

I was catching up with reading the E-digest and there was a post from Rocky crying about how he is out ranked by people that started long after he did. He was always whining about this issue in the past. I might have felt sorry for him if it weren't for the fact that he left Remy in the late 80's of early 90's. When you stop training and people pass you in rank you have no one to blame but yourself.

Remy would have taken him back if Rocky wanted to come back. It was Rocky who chose to stay away.

If you drop out of school you have no right to complain about the people who graduate.

If Rocky wants to prove something, he should come to the symposium and show what he's got. If not then *Shut Your Hole!*

:soapbox: 

Well, it's time I get off my soap box.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Shut Your Hole!*



Don't hold back man, say what you really feel.

Oh wait, I thought he was yelling at me.

I'm so used to it by now.


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## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *
> 
> DoctorB,
> 
> I understand your comments and your desire to have the Modern Arnis community to come together in 2003.
> 
> I noticed that Mickey said,  "These guys that leave and do NOT train and then come back and hang around with their old instructors for a few hours or a few days and then complain because other people are progressing in 'their' art."  So, I believe the intent of the original post in the locker room and here were to address this issue for those that did not train.
> 
> Mickey also said,  "This is not an attack on those that leave a group and train their basement alone or with friends, or with those that open their own independent schools. Unless of course they also complain about people who might have more rank then them."  Which in my opinion covers your point as well for those that went elsewhere and still trained or taught. That is great. I believe the problem Mickey and others here are talking about are those that complain about people getting promoted over them, when they leave the organization.
> 
> For example: If Tim Hartman who had left the IMAF while Remy Presas was still alive, and Remy Presas had been cured and he returned and for example Dr. Schea had been promoted to 6th or even 7th degree in a few years. Would Tim Hartman have had the 'right' to complain about the rank of Dr. Schea?
> (* This has some assumptions in this example. The first being that Remy Presas was cured, the second being that Tim Hartman and Remy Presas would not have patched up their differences and the issues that lead to Tim Hartman's leaving. the third being the Dr. Schea had staid and continued to train and advance. *)
> 
> This is how I took the posts. I could be wrong, it is just my opinion.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Rich
> :asian: *



Hello Rich,

I believe that you and I are in agreement!

People who do not train, need not complain about those who do.
Those people who leave an organization, should never complain about being passed by others who stayed and did the work required to get their promotions. And those people who remained in the organization or who came in at a later point should be very careful not to dismiss the people who left, yet continued tot train, because the "outsiders" may have significant contributions to make to the art, precisely because they went in a slightly different direction, thereby experiencing a different set of ideas.

In my own case, I really do not worry about the people who have gone to 4th, 5th and 6th degrees in Modern Arnis , since I left the organzation.  I was ranked at Lakan Tatlo, when I left, that is still my rank in the that particular art.  Others moved up and ahead in Modern Arnis ranking - congratulations to all of them - I chose to move in a different direction.  That decision, in turn opened some other doors of opportunity and associations, so that I could reach my Lakan Anim ranking in a different system and have more flexibility to explore the arts of interest to me than I had under Professor and the Modern Arnis system.

I have had the opportunity to work with several of the people who have indicated that they want to instruct at the Symposium, so I am very well aware of potential impact that the event could have on the minds and ideas of those who do in fact attend.  

The Symposium will open some eyes and minds to the vast depths to which one can take this art and some will rrrealize that Professor **was not** the only innovative person working the Modern Arnis style of the FMAs.  The major problem within Modern Arnis is that too many people have been 'seduced' by the magic of the man, that they have lost sight of the realities that one can find within the art itself, as first developed by the late Professor.

BTW, that is a major premise of Bram Frank's book, "Conceptual Modern Arnis", that is in it's final editing process at Paladin Press.
He also refers to a number of people whom he identies as "renegades" because they were major innovators within Modern Arnis.  Dan Anderson mentioned this in his recent Inside Kung Fu article.   

We must recognize Professor's genius and creation, but we also need to recognize that he was fallible as a human being.  We need to show respect for him as the founder and Grand Master of the art of Modern Arnis, while understanding that nothing in nature is stagnant - change always occurs - however slowly in some cases, there is still change.  

My position is that we need the Symposium.  We need to see one another, talk to one another and learn from everyone who is in attendence at the event.  This is a time of change and I belieeve that it is better to be in front, because the view never changes when you are bringing up the rear... and you have to hope that there is not a sudden stop!!!!!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Mickey

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> 
> *By no means am I taking shots at the people who have been still training. When I saw this post I thought of only one person, Rocky Paswik.
> 
> I was catching up with reading the E-digest and there was a post from Rocky crying about how he is out ranked by people that started long after he did. He was always whining about this issue in the past. I might have felt sorry for him if it weren't for the fact that he left Remy in the late 80's of early 90's. When you stop training and people pass you in rank you have no one to blame but yourself.
> 
> Remy would have taken him back if Rocky wanted to come back. It was Rocky who chose to stay away.
> 
> If you drop out of school you have no right to complain about the people who graduate.
> 
> If Rocky wants to prove something, he should come to the symposium and show what he's got. If not then Shut Your Hole!
> 
> :soapbox:
> 
> Well, it's time I get off my soap box. *




DOH!

When I wrote my post in the locker room, I did not intend it for anyone in particular, mentioned, here.

I do not know Rich Parsons, Renegade, nor Rocky Paswik.

Mick


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> 
> *
> 
> Hello Rich,
> 
> I believe that you and I are in agreement!
> . . .
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D. *



Thanks Doctor B


----------

