# Can it be done? Should it be done?



## srztanjur (Jul 29, 2017)

First of all, I want to preemptively thank anyone who can provide a little perspective on my situation from the point of view of someone who has trained in martial arts before; your advice will be invaluable.

That being said, I am someone who has always wanted to take up a martial art. For a long time, the martial art that has seemed best suited to the type of movement that comes most naturally to me is Aikido, though lately, I've been looking at the very different style of Kendo (though, intriguingly, and unrelated to my interest in either of them, they are, I understand, both Japanese styles based on swordsmanship.) I am absolutely certain that, could I begin, I would not stop. But I do have a predicament.

I lead a very busy lifestyle. I am a full time student, a full time worker, and I volunteer in a lab. I took into consideration the length of my classes, the length of my travel, the time it would take me to sleep, and every other conceivable borrower of my time, and it looks like, honestly, I can only put eight hours a week into training. This is not a reflection of my commitment. If I could only have more hours in my week, I would have no problem putting them toward training. But that's how it goes.

So my question is, not only can it be done on such a limited schedule, /should/ it be done? Is that simply too little an amount of time to commit weekly to getting better? I have no problem with the long haul. I know it could be months, maybe significantly longer, given my schedule, before I even get passed the basics. So that's not my issue. But what I am curious about is if I would really benefit at all from doing that, and could I conceivably, with many years under my 'belt' (sorry, no pun intended), learn the martial art in appreciable way (not becoming a master or an expert, of course, but still something embodying kaizen)?

I hope that this question is not worded too vaguely. My goals are kind of nebulous, in that I would be happy just to see gradual improvement, wherever that might take me. But I hope that I've kind of pinned them down into the least esoteric possible terms so that the heart of my question is clear. That all being said, thanks again to anyone who can offer me some insight into my problem.


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## Martial D (Jul 30, 2017)

It's never too late.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2017)

8 hours is plenty.


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## DaveB (Jul 30, 2017)

Most people struggle to put 4 hrs and do ok


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## marques (Jul 30, 2017)

8 hrs? 2 or 3 hrs/wk of good training, for a few years, would be already great. Seriously. 

Giving your lifestyle, I would not commit to more than 4 hrs and I would save the other 4 hrs for resting or something else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 30, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> First of all, I want to preemptively thank anyone who can provide a little perspective on my situation from the point of view of someone who has trained in martial arts before; your advice will be invaluable.
> 
> That being said, I am someone who has always wanted to take up a martial art. For a long time, the martial art that has seemed best suited to the type of movement that comes most naturally to me is Aikido, though lately, I've been looking at the very different style of Kendo (though, intriguingly, and unrelated to my interest in either of them, they are, I understand, both Japanese styles based on swordsmanship.) I am absolutely certain that, could I begin, I would not stop. But I do have a predicament.
> 
> ...


Most of the folks I've taught or trained with studied about 5 hours a week. Give yourself the other 3 to practice movements on your own, and you'll be doing more than most. I've trained with folks who started in their 60's, and know folks who started later. Go for it and do what works for you.

As an aside, Ueshiba's Aikido is not based on sword technique (that, as I understand it, is a notion based on mistranslating the "Daito" in "Daito-ryu", the primary basis of the art). It is heavily influenced by sword movements, because Ueshiba was a skilled swordsman, as were several of his early senior students (and Takeda was also a swordsman, so some of that influence probably dates back to Daito-ryu, though you won't see as much of the wide sword motions there). That common language (sword work) apparently led to some teaching based on sword movement, and some conversion of Daito-ryu techniques to use those sword movements.


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## Danny T (Jul 30, 2017)

If you don't train you'll never learn nor get good. In my experience most only train 2-3 hours weekly so your potential 8 hours a week is 5-6 hours more than most.


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## JR 137 (Jul 30, 2017)

Between work, my wife and kids, and other stuff that needs to get done, I can't possibly spend 8 hours a week in the dojo.  Most adults that don't run a dojo can't either.  I average 2-3 classes per week, as most people I train alongside do.  Very few do more, and a few do less.  Even during the summer (I'm a school teacher, so I have July and August off), I still struggle to get in more often.

2-3 times a week is easily enough for you to progress, and at a normal rate.  I haven't come across any personally, but I've heard of teachers who demand their students attend far more than the standard 2-3 nights a week.  They have very unrealistic expectations.  Unless of course their students are full-time professional fighters.

You'll be fine.  If you put forth maximum effort and are there to learn, you'll be more than fine.  Get out and join a dojo.  Even 1 hour a week is way more than none.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 30, 2017)

Just train. Do what you feel comfortable with. Don't sacrifice so much that you begin to hate training.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 30, 2017)

Martial arts is unique because part of your training you can do at home.


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## jobo (Jul 30, 2017)

to get the most benifit from ma you need to commit for a life time, that's a big commitment, the amount of time you commit each week is really a,secondary factor, it might limit the speed of your progress or it might not, it depends on your motor skills and how quick you pick things up.

over committing at the start stage may well be counter productive, if it start to effect other elements of your life then you may just pack the whole thing in as to much trouble. You already in danger of not doing it at all as you can't find more than eight hours a week.

just commit to one or at the most two classes a week, if you fall in love with it, your life will rearrange its self to give you more time, but you don't even know if you like it yet. If it only stays at that level then you will still make good progress.

there is plenty you can do with out going near a dojo, work on your flexability fitness, co ordination, these can easily be worked in to your day with out adversly effecting your other commitments.

go suck it and see


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## wingchun100 (Jul 31, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> First of all, I want to preemptively thank anyone who can provide a little perspective on my situation from the point of view of someone who has trained in martial arts before; your advice will be invaluable.
> 
> That being said, I am someone who has always wanted to take up a martial art. For a long time, the martial art that has seemed best suited to the type of movement that comes most naturally to me is Aikido, though lately, I've been looking at the very different style of Kendo (though, intriguingly, and unrelated to my interest in either of them, they are, I understand, both Japanese styles based on swordsmanship.) I am absolutely certain that, could I begin, I would not stop. But I do have a predicament.
> 
> ...



Any training is good training. Will it take you longer to become proficient? Yes, but it will take even longer if you do ZERO hours.


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## srztanjur (Jul 31, 2017)

Thank you everyone, based on what you've all said, I'm going to start doing yoga this summer to improve my flexibility, and then, once I've proven to myself that the hours are doable, and I've improved my flexibility and strength a little, I'll take the dive.


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## jobo (Jul 31, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> Thank you everyone, based on what you've all said, I'm going to start doing yoga this summer to improve my flexibility, and then, once I've proven to myself that the hours are doable, and I've improved my flexibility and strength a little, I'll take the dive.


procrastination, stuff the yoga go and a,do a class or two


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## Jenna (Jul 31, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> Thank you everyone, based on what you've all said, I'm going to start doing yoga this summer to improve my flexibility, and then, once I've proven to myself that the hours are doable, and I've improved my flexibility and strength a little, I'll take the dive.


What age are you, did you say? and will you post some about your experience dipping in your toe of the MA pond maybe?


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## srztanjur (Aug 1, 2017)

"procrastination, stuff the yoga go and a,do a class or two"

While I'm grateful for your advice, you don't know me that well, and, frankly, if I were one to procrastinate, I probably wouldn't have such a busy life in the first place. The yoga class is pretty much a necessity at this point. I've lost a lot of my flexibility and muscle strength over the years. It makes sense to be in maybe not /great/, but decent shape before I start anything else. Plus, like I said, it will give me an idea about how much carving out that time will really effect my ability to what I have to, and, as martial arts is far and above the bigger commitment, it makes sense to do a trial run with something that /isn't/ quite as much of a commitment, in my opinion.

"What age are you, did you say? and will you post some about your experience dipping in your toe of the MA pond maybe?"

I am about to be twenty-six, and, sure, I have no problem posting about my experiences


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## jobo (Aug 1, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "procrastination, stuff the yoga go and a,do a class or two"
> 
> While I'm grateful for your advice, you don't know me that well, and, frankly, if I were one to procrastinate, I probably wouldn't have such a busy life in the first place. The yoga class is pretty much a necessity at this point. I've lost a lot of my flexibility and muscle strength over the years. It makes sense to be in maybe not /great/, but decent shape before I start anything else. Plus, like I said, it will give me an idea about how much carving out that time will really effect my ability to what I have to, and, as martial arts is far and above the bigger commitment, it makes sense to do a trial run with something that /isn't/ quite as much of a commitment, in my opinion.
> 
> ...


in what way have you judged that getting strengh and flexability from yoga


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## jobo (Aug 1, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "procrastination, stuff the yoga go and a,do a class or two"
> 
> While I'm grateful for your advice, you don't know me that well, and, frankly, if I were one to procrastinate, I probably wouldn't have such a busy life in the first place. The yoga class is pretty much a necessity at this point. I've lost a lot of my flexibility and muscle strength over the years. It makes sense to be in maybe not /great/, but decent shape before I start anything else. Plus, like I said, it will give me an idea about how much carving out that time will really effect my ability to what I have to, and, as martial arts is far and above the bigger commitment, it makes sense to do a trial run with something that /isn't/ quite as much of a commitment, in my opinion.
> 
> ...


in what way have you judged that gaining strengh and flexability from yoga is,superior to gaining,strengh and flexability from attending a ma,class?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2017)

I'm going to give some advice against what's been said here. Don't try martial arts now. You're currently working full time, going to school full time, volunteering, and outside of sleeping/eating/all of that, you only have 8 hours TO YOURSELF each week. Use those hours for something you know you enjoy. Starting martial arts can be stressful at first (especially for someone whom, I'm guessing, arrives to be the best and overworks herself with everything), and you need to have that time to relax otherwise you'll burn out. The burn out will probably make you stop liking something you enjoy, and can be incredibly damaging to your mental health, based on my experience with clients.

Bottom line, unless you know it's something you enjoy (and have proof, not just a feeling), don't give up your precious little relaxation time for it.


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## srztanjur (Aug 2, 2017)

"Bottom line, unless you know it's something you enjoy (and have proof, not just a feeling), don't give up your precious little relaxation time for it."

This is a good point, but I actually already factored in eighteen hours of time for myself and socialization into my week. It works out to a day minus sleep, so I've got that covered


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 2, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "Bottom line, unless you know it's something you enjoy (and have proof, not just a feeling), don't give up your precious little relaxation time for it."
> 
> This is a good point, but I actually already factored in eighteen hours of time for myself and socialization into my week. It works out to a day minus sleep, so I've got that covered


Ok, good. The way i was reading it was that you had 8 hours to yourself, and were planning to use them all on martial arts


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## jobo (Aug 4, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "procrastination, stuff the yoga go and a,do a class or two"
> 
> While I'm grateful for your advice, you don't know me that well, and, frankly, if I were one to procrastinate, I probably wouldn't have such a busy life in the first place. The yoga class is pretty much a necessity at this point. I've lost a lot of my flexibility and muscle strength over the years. It makes sense to be in maybe not /great/, but decent shape before I start anything else. Plus, like I said, it will give me an idea about how much carving out that time will really effect my ability to what I have to, and, as martial arts is far and above the bigger commitment, it makes sense to do a trial run with something that /isn't/ quite as much of a commitment, in my opinion.
> 
> ...


but what you are doing is the very defintion of procrastination, doing something else instead of what you should be doing,
I'm not being judgmental, I did it myself, having decieded to do MA I spent a long time working on my,fitness and flexability, before finally taking the plunge, to find I was the fittest beginner there by some considerable distance, as a result I missed out on many months of training. That I could have had whilst building up my fitness.


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## srztanjur (Aug 4, 2017)

"instead of what you should be doing,"

That is a super loaded statement. It's not that I /should/ be doing martial arts, it's that I /want/ to. The only way 'want' becomes 'should' is if you are arguing that I 'should' do what I 'want.' And what I /want/ is to do yoga first. I'm not concerned with missing a few months of training leading up to a lifelong practice. No matter how you look at it, yoga is not, in and of itself, a waste of my time, so does it matter if I do one thing I like before going into another? I don't see how. 

Procrastination implies that I'm putting something off, as if yoga is some intentional buffer between me and some other goal, but it's not. They are both things of value, and I can't do them at the same time. One, does, as it happens, however, give me an advantage going into the other, and serves as a good trial run of what it will be like if I lose that amount of time in my week. Will I be able to keep it up once I start, knowing that I have studies, and sleep, and classes, and work, and these many other consumers of my time? I'll know before even getting in.


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## jobo (Aug 4, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "instead of what you should be doing,"
> 
> That is a super loaded statement. It's not that I /should/ be doing martial arts, it's that I /want/ to. The only way 'want' becomes 'should' is if you are arguing that I 'should' do what I 'want.' And what I /want/ is to do yoga first. I'm not concerned with missing a few months of training leading up to a lifelong practice. No matter how you look at it, yoga is not, in and of itself, a waste of my time, so does it matter if I do one thing I like before going into another? I don't see how.
> 
> Procrastination implies that I'm putting something off, as if yoga is some intentional buffer between me and some other goal, but it's not. They are both things of value, and I can't do them at the same time. One, does, as it happens, however, give me an advantage going into the other, and serves as a good trial run of what it will be like if I lose that amount of time in my week. Will I be able to keep it up once I start, knowing that I have studies, and sleep, and classes, and work, and these many other consumers of my time? I'll know before even getting in.


you did ask for advice?

does yoga have value, probably , but you said you were doing it to prepare for ma, in which case it has a value between slight and non existent, you also said you had eight hours to dedicate to MA, three is more than enough, leaving you five hours to fit a bit of yoga in, should you wish to


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## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 5, 2017)

wow 8  hours training is great


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## srztanjur (Aug 5, 2017)

"you did ask for advice?"

Yeah, advice, which I've taken into consideration and thanked you for, and despite which I've made a decision, and then explained the basis of what I ultimately decided. There is zero chance I'm doing both together. The value of yoga for martial arts can't be zero, because, for whatever else the other aspects of yoga may be worth, it /does/ improve your flexibility and muscle strength. There is no physical activity where those aren't of benefit. 

It's one thing to give advice, and quite another to criticize a person's decision once that advice is given. Despite what you've said, that /is/ how it comes off. There is no reason for you to be so concerned over the fact that I'm not taking a martial art THIS second. Calling it procrastination is inaccurate for reasons I've given above. I took your experience into account. /You/ may have regretted getting into shape before starting training, but I assure you, there is no chance I will look back on doing yoga and think 'gee, that was a waste of time.' 

And, honestly, if you really thought I was just putting getting into the martial art off, I don't see why you would think it's right for me. Shouldn't that be a yellow, possibly even a red flag, about how long I'm going to stick with it? It's pointless for me to dive headlong into something that might not even be sustainable in my life. Eight hours is the /maximum/, and that's with some serious time budgeting. That's hoping that there's no semester where I have to study an extra hour more a night than I thought. That's assuming nothing unexpected happens each and every week. It makes much more sense to see how it works out with something like yoga, than it does to see how it works out with a martial art. Starting something to quit it is a damn shame; why do that to myself or to a future instructor who invests their time and possibly personal investment into my development? That makes no sense. 

When it comes to my situation, rushing into it isn't bold, it's unwise. And I'm telling you it's unwise, and you're not listening. That's frustrating. Again, thank you for the advice, but that's enough.


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## jobo (Aug 9, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "you did ask for advice?"
> 
> Yeah, advice, which I've taken into consideration and thanked you for, and despite which I've made a decision, and then explained the basis of what I ultimately decided. There is zero chance I'm doing both together. The value of yoga for martial arts can't be zero, because, for whatever else the other aspects of yoga may be worth, it /does/ improve your flexibility and muscle strength. There is no physical activity where those aren't of benefit.
> 
> ...



yes I know what type of person you are, one that solicits view from others and then gets cross if those view differ from their decision, I have a sister like that.

your not listening anymore, but for others who might make the same mistake. There is very little cross over between yoga and MA. yoga is based on static or very slow flexability, MA is based on dynamic fast mobility. They put completely different demands and require completely different development of your nervous system or the ability to hold you leg up in the air, is light years away from the ability to throw a powerful high kick . Dynamic rather than static stretches is what sports science recommends for athletic performance.

Such " strengh as you get from yoga will be in your core and be endurance strengh, that's not a bad thing but it will do nothing you increase you power, that requires you to do powerful (fast) movements and very little at all for muscle development outside of your core.

it won't help with balance, other than standing still one one leg
cardio
power any where
endurance out side of you core
co ordination
reactions
motor skills developing movement patterns
jumping
and a good few more.

it will help with static/ slow flexability, which is the smallest part of Ma


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## srztanjur (Aug 9, 2017)

"yes I know what type of person you are, one that solicits view from others and then gets cross if those view differ from their decision, I have a sister like that."

And you're the type of person that doesn't accept that no means no ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

I'm not here to sooth your narcissistic injury. I'm not here to pander to your world view of believing that not doing something right this very second is always the same thing as procrastination. I'm not here to be an echo chamber for your cynicism. So I'll leave you with this: 

benefits of yoga for martial artists - Google Search

If you think your views on the benefits of yoga are more accurate than the easily accessed literature that's out there, feel free to cite something other than your opinion. Because, you'll notice, if you go back to the question I asked, my question was /not/ about whether or not I should start martial arts right this very second; not about whether or not yoga is a waste of time; and not about whether or not the flexibility and muscle strength gained in yoga are beneficial to martial arts. You volunteered all of that information. It was unsolicited advice. And now that I've taken that advice into account and not done what you want, your ego's been injured. Sorry, not sorry. If you want to volunteer unasked for advice, be prepared for it to be ignored. You've more than worn out your welcome. 

Thank you for your advice, and your patronage. My mind is made up.


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## jobo (Aug 9, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "yes I know what type of person you are, one that solicits view from others and then gets cross if those view differ from their decision, I have a sister like that."
> 
> And you're the type of person that doesn't accept that no means no ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> ...


I've long a go lost interest your well being, , your spouting tripe about yoga being a good prep fotmr ma, and I'm calling you out on it


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## srztanjur (Aug 12, 2017)

"I've long a go lost interest your well being, , your spouting tripe about yoga being a good prep fotmr ma, and I'm calling you out on it"

I get it. It's about having the last word. Have a good life.


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "I've long a go lost interest your well being, , your spouting tripe about yoga being a good prep fotmr ma, and I'm calling you out on it"
> 
> I get it. It's about having the last word. Have a good life.


no that's not so


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## Steve (Aug 15, 2017)

Yoga is excellent for grappling arts, and I would presume for striking arts, too.   Core strength is crucial.   Lots of BJJ guys supplement their training with yoga.


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

Steve said:


> Yoga is excellent for grappling arts, and I would presume for striking arts, too.   Core strength is crucial.   Lots of BJJ guys supplement their training with yoga.


by excellent what do you mean, specifically why are static/ slow stretches superior to dynamic,stretches for fighting?


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## Steve (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> by excellent what do you mean, specifically why are static/ slow stretches superior to dynamic,stretches for fighting?


I don't recall comparing one to the other.


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

Steve said:


> I don't recall comparing one to the other.


you said it was excellent for ma, that better than very very very good. So I'm asking you for some science to back that up


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> you said it was excellent for ma, that better than very very very good. So I'm asking you for some science to back that up


You actually asked for him to explain why static was better than dynamic, which he didn't claim.

The science I've seen suggests both have their place - dynamic before the workout, and static afterwards. That's some admittedly skinny research on my part.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

Steve said:


> Yoga is excellent for grappling arts, and I would presume for striking arts, too.   Core strength is crucial.   Lots of BJJ guys supplement their training with yoga.


Agreed. The yoga I practice (vinyasa flow) is more mobile than most types, so part slow dynamic, part static.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> you did ask for advice?
> 
> does yoga have value, probably , but you said you were doing it to prepare for ma, in which case it has a value between slight and non existent, you also said you had eight hours to dedicate to MA, three is more than enough, leaving you five hours to fit a bit of yoga in, should you wish to


Actually, it can have tremendous value, though much of it may be indirect. It builds support muscles around joints (improved my knees dramatically), helping avoid injury. The static/slow stretching helps elongate and loosen for general use. While this isn't specific to MA, it helps reduce injury and increase overall mobility, all of which supports MA training. It's also helpful in rehabbing the inevitable injuries. It's best to pair it with some development more specific to MA (including some dynamic stretching and explosive power development). In short, yoga makes a good pairing for most martial artists, though there are other ways to get the same benefits.


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, it can have tremendous value, though much of it may be indirect. It builds support muscles around joints (improved my knees dramatically), helping avoid injury. The static/slow stretching helps elongate and loosen for general use. While this isn't specific to MA, it helps reduce injury and increase overall mobility, all of which supports MA training. It's also helpful in rehabbing the inevitable injuries. It's best to pair it with some development more specific to MA (including some dynamic stretching and explosive power development). In short, yoga makes a good pairing for most martial artists, though there are other ways to get the same benefits.


its  teaches you nervous system to move your limbs slowly or not at all, its the very opposite of how to develop yourself for power generation and fast movement. all the benefits you liat can be,achieved in other ways, with out screwing up you power generation. The op was off to do months of yoga,as she thought this would develop her ma,skills, and it,clearly will not


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> its  teaches you nervous system to move your limbs slowly or not at all, its the very opposite of how to develop yourself for power generation and fast movement. all the benefits you liat can be,achieved in other ways, with out screwing up you power generation. The op was off to do months of yoga,as she thought this would develop her ma,skills, and it,clearly will not


I believe I actually said there were other ways to achieve the benefits. And learning the slow movement doesn't mess up power generation. We use slow movements a lot in life, so the slow movement is more applicable to normal life than to MA, but even in MA we sometimes need slow movements, especially in grappling, where we may need to use slow power at times to overcome resistance, and use explosive power at other times (both can be applied, depending upon the situation).


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I believe I actually said there were other ways to achieve the benefits. And learning the slow movement doesn't mess up power generation. We use slow movements a lot in life, so the slow movement is more applicable to normal life than to MA, but even in MA we sometimes need slow movements, especially in grappling, where we may need to use slow power at times to overcome resistance, and use explosive power at other times (both can be applied, depending upon the situation).


yoga has even slower movement that normal life, that if they move at all. Yes it does, you training you nervous system to work the slow twitch endurance muscle fibres,rather than the fast twitch you need for power generation
.
, its based to the most part on isometrics ,which increases endurance strengh in very limited ranges of motion, where as power generation requires fast movement in full the full range of motion .

there is no such thing as slow power, power is fast movement or rather the more powerful you are the faster you can move a resistance and that requires training you fast twitch muscles


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> yoga has even slower movement that normal life, that if they move at all. Yes it does, its based to the most part on isometrics ,which increases strengh in very limited ranges of motion, where as power generation requires fast movement and,stretch full the full range of motion .
> 
> there is no such thing as slow power, power is fast movement or rather the more powerful you are the faster you can move a resistance


Sometimes slow movements can be used to overcome resistance, and to resist. I do it sometimes when ground grappling. Explosive movements  (even small ones) are more common for breaking resistance, but they aren't the only option.

I understand the concept of isometrics. I'm not aware of research that shows that mild isometric development actually inhibits explosive power - it just fails to develop it, so far as I know. And, yes, the yoga movements are (usually) slower than normal movements. That's what makes them stress the support muscles in ways that fast movement simply cannot. Those support muscles are part of the injury avoidance I was talking about earlier.


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Sometimes slow movements can be used to overcome resistance, and to resist. I do it sometimes when ground grappling. Explosive movements  (even small ones) are more common for breaking resistance, but they aren't the only option.
> 
> I understand the concept of isometrics. I'm not aware of research that shows that mild isometric development actually inhibits explosive power - it just fails to develop it, so far as I know. And, yes, the yoga movements are (usually) slower than normal movements. That's what makes them stress the support muscles in ways that fast movement simply cannot. Those support muscles are part of the injury avoidance I was talking about earlier.




so we agree, that yoga is an endurance exercise that promotes slow movement and does nothing at all to increase power. It is therefore.  of very little used in the striking arts, which is more or less what i said to the op, before you told me i was wrong


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> so we agree, that yoga is an endurance exercise that promotes slow movement and does nothing at all to increase power. It is therefore.  of very little used in the striking arts, which is more or less what i said to the op, before you told me i was wrong


It has indirect benefits, which was my original point. No, it's not going to improve striking speed or power. But it will probably (depending upon the person's existing development) improve stability and mobility in the leg joints, which can facilitate the power development and help protect from injury. It doesn't develop the power, but makes it easier to do so, in some cases.


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It has indirect benefits, which was my original point. No, it's not going to improve striking speed or power. But it will probably (depending upon the person's existing development) improve stability and mobility in the leg joints, which can facilitate the power development and help protect from injury. It doesn't develop the power, but makes it easier to do so, in some cases.


 how does holding you leg joints in one position for an extended period of time Improve mobility, mobility requires an ability to move, moving it through the full range of motion will do so. How does that work with yoga?


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It has indirect benefits, which was my original point. No, it's not going to improve striking speed or power. But it will probably (depending upon the person's existing development) improve stability and mobility in the leg joints, which can facilitate the power development and help protect from injury. It doesn't develop the power, but makes it easier to do so, in some cases.


i didn't tell her it had no benefits, i told her that doing months of yoga was no the best way of preparing for a striking  ma.

the best way to prepare for a striking ma, is to do the ma and develop your physical condition as you go


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> how does holding you leg joints in one position for an extended period of time Improve mobility, mobility requires an ability to move, moving it through the full range of motion will do so. How does that work with yoga?


The stretching increases mobility. The holding positions (aside from any stretches being held) puts the support muscles under stress.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> i didn't tell her it had no benefits, i told her that doing months of yoga was no the best way of preparing for a striking  ma.
> 
> the best way to prepare for a striking ma, is to do the ma and develop your physical condition as you go


I didn't disagree with any of that. You stated yoga had slight to nonexistent benefits. Depending upon the needs of the individual, it can have significant benefit.


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## jobo (Aug 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The stretching increases mobility. The holding positions (aside from any stretches being held) puts the support muscles under stress.


mobility mean movement, you increase your range of movement through movement, you can increase flexability by doing holds, but not mobility


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

jobo said:


> mobility mean movement, you increase your range of movement through movement, you can increase flexability by doing holds, but not mobility


I repeat - the stretching increases mobility. Flexibility does lend to mobility of the joint, and thus to the mobility of the person.


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## srztanjur (Aug 17, 2017)

"its teaches you nervous system to move your limbs slowly or not at all"

Okay, lol, as a neuroscience and physiology student, no. That's ridiculous. That's not how the nervous system works.


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## jobo (Aug 17, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "its teaches you nervous system to move your limbs slowly or not at all"
> 
> Okay, lol, as a neuroscience and physiology student, no. That's ridiculous. That's not how the nervous system works.


really, fast movement is dependent on estabishing a good nurial connection with your fast twitch muscles, that means repeated fast and powerful movements. Yoga builds up the nurial connection  your slow twitch muscles and even more as it only requires them to move very slowly you become very adapt as,err  moving slowly, that becomes you default setting


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2017)

jobo said:


> really, fast movement is dependent on estabishing a good nurial connection with your fast twitch muscles, that means repeated fast and powerful movements. Yoga builds up the nurial connection  your slow twitch muscles and even more as it only requires them to move very slowly you become very adapt as,err  moving slowly, that becomes you default setting


If that were true, world-class sprinters would stop walking, and would only ever sit or run. As it turns out, our nervous systems can learn more than one type of motion for each muscle group.


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## jobo (Aug 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If that were true, world-class sprinters would stop walking, and would only ever sit or run. As it turns out, our nervous systems can learn more than one type of motion for each muscle group.


in deed but she isn't suggesting learning more than one,  ie  just yoga. You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well. That's why athletes use period training, id be very suprised if any world class sprinters included lying on their back with their leg in the air for an hour as part of their going fast training, I'm betting they spend a lot of time going fast?


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## JR 137 (Aug 17, 2017)

jobo said:


> in deed but she isn't suggesting learning more than one,  ie  just yoga. You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well. That's why athletes use period training, id be very suprised if any world class sprinters included lying on their back with their leg in the air for an hour as part of their going fast training, I'm betting they spend a lot of time going fast?


They spend a lot of time doing a lot of things.  While I have no direct evidence to state this, nor do any desire to look for it, Usain Bolt (or anyone else) doesn't spend his entire training sessions doing 100m dashes over and over.  I've been around more than enough high level sprinters to know this.  I've also never heard any sprinter nor any other high level athlete who knew what they were talking about say yoga is a waste of time because it only trains slow twitch fibers and not fast twitch fibers.  

And it's not as simple as training fast twitch vs slow twitch fibers, you can only train one type at a time, etc.  You're taking a way too simplistic view on it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2017)

jobo said:


> in deed but she isn't suggesting learning more than one,  ie  just yoga. You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well. That's why athletes use period training, id be very suprised if any world class sprinters included lying on their back with their leg in the air for an hour as part of their going fast training, I'm betting they spend a lot of time going fast?


You were the one who put forth that the one training would be harmful to the end point (something intended for later training). If you'd said it wouldn't help much, I'd have had no problem. But that's not the stance you took - you asserted that yoga would be of no use, then later asserted it would be counter-productive. Both are contrary to evidence available.


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## srztanjur (Aug 17, 2017)

"really, fast movement is dependent on estabishing a good nurial connection with your fast twitch muscles, that means repeated fast and powerful movements."

No, what you're thinking of is how muscles tend to /grow/ when the nerves that activate them are used more. That is /not/ to say that training slow twitch muscles disrupts the nervous system's ability to send signals to fast twitch muscles. They don't even use the same afferent neurons.

Edit:

"You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well."

This is /also/ untrue. Again -- the nerves that go to slow twitch and fast twitch muscles do /not/ share nerve pathways. They are not activated by the same interneurons. They don't share reflexes.


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## JR 137 (Aug 17, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> "really, fast movement is dependent on estabishing a good nurial connection with your fast twitch muscles, that means repeated fast and powerful movements."
> 
> No, what you're thinking of is how muscles tend to /grow/ when the nerves that activate them are used more. That is /not/ to say that training slow twitch muscles disrupts the nervous system's ability to send signals to fast twitch muscles. They don't even use the same afferent neurons.
> 
> ...


Where'd you find that information from?  I've taken quite a few anatomy, physiology, and exercise physiology courses, at both the undergraduate and graduate level, and I've never come across anything you've just said.


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## srztanjur (Aug 17, 2017)

Anatomy and Physiology: Unity of Form and Function, by Saladin. Chapter 15, section III, sub-sections B and C; section IV, all sub-sections.

Edit: those are the sections covering innervation by the somatic nervous system, including reflexes.

Edit: nerve branches are divided functionally. There is overlap between different nerve branches. Interneurons may recruit more of these branches, depending on the motor program. This is achieved by activating more afferent fibers. It is not, however as was proposed: that the training of one fiber interferes with the activation of another. Having done anatomy and physiology courses yourself, I hope you will agree -- the nervous system's training process is entirely within the central nervous system, not the peripheral nervous system.


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## JR 137 (Aug 17, 2017)

srztanjur said:


> Anatomy and Physiology: Unity of Form and Function, by Saladin. Chapter 15, section III, sub-sections B and C; section IV, all sub-sections.
> 
> Edit: those are the sections covering innervation by the somatic nervous system, including reflexes.
> 
> Edit: nerve branches are divided functionally. There is overlap between different nerve branches. Interneurons may recruit more of these branches, depending on the motor program. This is achieved by activating more afferent fibers. It is not, however as was proposed: that the training of one fiber interferes with the activation of another. Having done anatomy and physiology courses yourself, I hope you will agree -- the nervous system's training process is entirely within the central nervous system, not the peripheral nervous system.


I agree with this post.  I don't know the book you're quoting, but it sounds like a direct quote and is in line with what I've learned.

Your previous post sounded to me like you were saying fast twitch and slow twitch impulses are controlled by separate nerves altogether, rather than separate branches of the same nerves, which is what your source is basically saying.

In this context, yes, the training process is within the CNS, not the PNS.  However, the PNS will grow more branches and innervation points for finer motor control and better fiber recruitment, so one could make the argument that you're training both.  I'm really splitting hairs with that one though 

You mentioned reflexes in your previous post also.  Reflexes are not controlled by the brain; they're controlled by interneurons in the spinal cord.  For example, if you put your hand on a hot stove, your brain doesn't tell your hand to move.  The pain impulse gets to the spinal cord, an interneuron in the spinal cord* then sends an impulse to the arm and hand to move.  The pain impulse is simultaneously sent to the brain, but by this point the reflex action has already been initiated.  This is why there's a very slight delay in moving away and actually feeling the pain.  The affarent nerves aren't myelinated, making by them slower than efferent nerves which are myelinated.  An example I use is unexpectedly putting your hands under scalding water; you pull your hands away then feel the pain afterward.

*I can't remember the name of the structure in the spinal cord that controls reflexes but I think it's the s.g.  I also can't remember what s.g. stands for.

Thanks for the trip down neurology lane.  I think I broke my brain 

Edit: Actually, I think the s.g. determines if the impulse will be passed onto the brain or block it.  I don't remember, it was a while ago.


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## srztanjur (Aug 17, 2017)

I know that reflexes are controlled by spinal interneurons. I was just pointing out that somatic reflexes that recruit fast twitch don't necessarily involve slow twitch at all. Also, that wasn't a direct quote. In fact, that wasn't even a summary of something I was reading at the time. That's just me talking from prior knowledge. The source was just there to back me up. However, I want to do some hair-splitting of my own -- I don't believe it's collaterals from the same afferent nerve axons that innervate different types of muscles, but separate axons altogether, drawing from the same circuit, but not necessarily the same interneuron. But, yeah. We agree on the major points, and the relevant one: which is that you can definitely train both without interfering with either one separately.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Where'd you find that information from?  I've taken quite a few anatomy, physiology, and exercise physiology courses, at both the undergraduate and graduate level, and I've never come across anything you've just said.


Here's a quick source that seems to agree with part of it. This is information that seems to be "new" for me (since my days studying physiological psychology).

Muscle Fiber Influence on Motor Neurons | Exercise Medicine
And a PPT file that seems to be related.


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