# Women and Grappling



## Nightingale (Sep 18, 2003)

how practical is grappling for women?  it would seem as if the larger opponent would have an advantage...??


----------



## Elfan (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nightingale _
> *how practical is grappling for women?  it would seem as if the larger opponent would have an advantage...?? *



Just as practical as it is for men, no more, no less.


----------



## Nightingale (Sep 18, 2003)

does a larger person have an advantage?


----------



## MJS (Sep 18, 2003)

That seems to be the big thing that everybody says--Is the bigger person gonna have the advantage?  If you look at Helio Gracie, who was a small man, he modified his tech. to work for him.  Alot of times when I'm grappling with someone, they always try to out muscle me.  I just had this happen to me the other day.  The harder the other person works, the quicker he's going to wear down.  Staying relaxed, controlling your breathing, and having good tech. is the key to winning against a larger person. 

Now, if the larger person has those same qualities---  Well, BJJ is like a chess game.  You need to think 4 moves ahead if you want to win.

As for if its good for a woman to learn?  Yes!  Most of the time, the attacker is going to be trying to take her to the ground, and having the skills to defend herself, get back to her feet and run and very important.  Keep in mind, in the street, there are no rules, so an eye gouge, rake to the face, fish hook, biting, spitting, hitting the groin, etc. are all legal.

Mike


----------



## Kroy (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *That seems to be the big thing that everybody says--Is the bigger person gonna have the advantage?  If you look at Helio Gracie, who was a small man, he modified his tech. to work for him.  Alot of times when I'm grappling with someone, they always try to out muscle me.  I just had this happen to me the other day.  The harder the other person works, the quicker he's going to wear down.  Staying relaxed, controlling your breathing, and having good tech. is the key to winning against a larger person.
> 
> Now, if the larger person has those same qualities---  Well, BJJ is like a chess game.  You need to think 4 moves ahead if you want to win.
> ...



I agree, just apply your Kenpo training to the grappling.


----------



## lvwhitebir (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *As for if its good for a woman to learn?  Yes!  Most of the time, the attacker is going to be trying to take her to the ground, and having the skills to defend herself, get back to her feet and run and very important.  *



Also, since most of the time women are attacked by people they know, they are likely to already be in a "ground" situation, such as sitting on a couch or reclining on the floor.  That means it's grappling right out the gate.

One of the local guys here is a brown belt in BJJ.  He weighs maybe 150.  I weigh 220 and have grappled part time for several years.  In all of our matches he dominated me completely, putting me on my back and keeping me there with seemingly little effort or trouble, even though I applied a lot of weight and strength to the contest a few times.  Can a woman do that?  You bet.

WhiteBirch


----------



## Elfan (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nightingale _
> *does a larger person have an advantage? *



Yes but this is genearlly true of "stand up" as well.


----------



## MA-Caver (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lvwhitebir _
> *Also, since most of the time women are attacked by people they know, they are likely to already be in a "ground" situation, such as sitting on a couch or reclining on the floor.  That means it's grappling right out the gate.
> WhiteBirch *



Exactly, thus the reason it's an important SD/MA skill for women to learn. Consider also the "give" that couch cushions and bed mattresses have when weight is applied to them. Considerably more than the carpeted floor or padded mats of the dojos. 
I've wondered if any instructors have thought of that and added the couch and matresses as additonal training area. 

Practical for women you asked originally? Oh my yes, equally for men and women.


----------



## FUZZYJ692000 (Sep 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nightingale _
> *does a larger person have an advantage? *



It all depends on the training and skills of both people.  I've mentioned many times on here that I absolutely love to grapple.  I'm barely 5 ft. 1in and am probably the shortest person, next to the kids in the studio.  My biggest challenge is going against my instructor and maybe 1 or 2 other people in class.  They all over tower me, ranging from 5 ft. 6 in to 6ft plus and definitely out weighing me.  Do I always lose?  Not rarely, except to Seig and that's cause he's learned my weaknesses, but if someone has me on the ground I can get out of many things and I'm a little wiggle worm on getting out of holds.  So I would have to say that size on the ground isn't always an advantage cause sometimes larger people can't move as quick on the ground, not all but some, so therefore it can be a disadvantage for them


----------



## Elfan (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FUZZYJ692000 _
> *It all depends on the training and skills of both people.   *



I disagree.  The outcome of a confrontation will depend on the attitude, logic, basics, and fitness of the participants.  Technical skill and training are only two of those categories.

Can skill make up for a physical disadvantage? Defiantly.  But it doesn't make the disadvantage go away.


----------



## FUZZYJ692000 (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *I disagree.  The outcome of a confrontation will depend on the attitude, logic, basics, and fitness of the participants.  Technical skill and training are only two of those categories.
> 
> Can skill make up for a physical disadvantage? Defiantly.  But it doesn't make the disadvantage go away. *



Point taken.  I just figured not to go into grave detail as to other factors that come into play because the list can be a mile long.  Going from a person's body size and even to the environment around them and whether they have the knowledge or wits to realize that certain objects around them can be used as tools to fend off a person who is bigger than them.  I just find it hard to accept that just cause a person is bigger than I am that I'm at that big of an disadvantage.  That person could be as dumb as a box of rocks and doesn't know his right fist from his left.  There are not only disadvantages in size but there are also disadvantages as you mentioned in a person's attitude, logic, basics, and the list can go on and on.  It's not just 1 thing:asian:


----------



## feintem (Nov 25, 2003)

Skill and fitness is the biggest factor in grappling.If the skill and fitness are evenly matched I give it to the bigger one. If the bigger person relays on size and not the other two factors he/she is sure to loose to the fit and technical fighter.





Micheal


----------



## chinkoobake (Dec 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nightingale _
> *does a larger person have an advantage? *



yes


----------



## chinkoobake (Dec 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FUZZYJ692000 _
> * I just find it hard to accept that just cause a person is bigger than I am that I'm at that big of an disadvantage.  *



Too bad. That's life.


----------



## JDenz (Dec 7, 2003)

Ya it does suck but that is the way life is.  Being big and being strong are definitly huge advantages.


----------



## chinkoobake (Dec 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Ya it does suck but that is the way life is.  Being big and being strong are definitly huge advantages. *




true


----------



## LiteBlu (Jun 4, 2004)

"how practical is grappling for women? it would seem as if the larger opponent would have an advantage...??"



A rapist enters a womans guard. The woman chokes the rapist to death.


----------



## JDenz (Jun 4, 2004)

lol you called it


----------



## Danjo (Jun 5, 2004)

The postulation that "If two people of significantly different weight, size and strength go at it, and both have the same skill level, then the bigger and stronger wins." is only true if it is an open contest. If the bigger, stronger guy gets taken off guard, especially by underestimating their opponent, then they  can lose even to a lesser skilled person. I have sparred with people with a great deal more skill than me, both grappling and kick/punch stuff, and beaten them simply because they took me too lightly the first time. By the time they figured out their mistake, it was to late for them. Of course, the next time, they beat me. However, in an attack, it will be a one time thing. There won't be a rematch that gives the would-be grappling expert-rapist another shot at a woman having now evaluated her grappling skills.


----------



## gusano (Jun 7, 2004)

If you have two UNTRAINED combatants, _most _times the bigger, stronger, more aggresive person will win. If you are fighting a trained person, regardless of size, you will need to bring more than size, strength, and aggression to the table. If you have two people of equal skill level, then size/strength can*  DEFINATELY *be an advantage. As for women, I believe grappling is the BEST self defense tool for them. Most _attackers _of women are would be rapists and the woman can defend herself with the man in her "guard" and every other position.


----------



## dredd (Jul 11, 2004)

There definately is a skill to weight ratio. If a person outweighs somebody significantly, the lighter person would have to have a lot more skill. When two people of the same skill levels are rolling around then weight must become a factor. Im guessing most rapists dont have too much experience in submission fighting though.


----------



## JDenz (Jul 11, 2004)

Ya think being a good grappler would greatly help in a rape situation.  just really defense, is all you need a rape has to be quick.  If you can fight him off even a minute  he will have to get out of there.


----------



## Gary Crawford (Jul 11, 2004)

This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a seminar that Carlson Gracie Jr. was teaching.It was a two day seminar and the guy I worked with on the first day had to leave and I was left to train with whoever didn't have a partner,I ended up with this 62 yr old woman.When I went to get into her gaurd with her on the ground she said"Great!! it's been too long since I had a man between my legs!"Man! did I feel weird!She hit on me the whole time,not to mention how she was pulling me towards her instead  what she was suppost to be doing.I almost asked her to pay me for working with her.I felt so cheap!


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 11, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a seminar that Carlson Gracie Jr. was teaching.It was a two day seminar and the guy I worked with on the first day had to leave and I was left to train with whoever didn't have a partner,I ended up with this 62 yr old woman.When I went to get into her gaurd with her on the ground she said"Great!! it's been too long since I had a man between my legs!"Man! did I feel weird!She hit on me the whole time,not to mention how she was pulling me towards her instead what she was suppost to be doing.I almost asked her to pay me for working with her.I felt so cheap!


LOL :lol: Gary the way you put that is soo funny.  When I'm 62 I must remember to find a cute guy to grapple with!  Hee Hee


----------



## Brother John (Jul 12, 2004)

Elfan said:
			
		

> Just as practical as it is for men, no more, no less.


BINGO !!! ​A "HUMAN" should be knowledgeable in ALL aspects of combat if she is to survive!!! IF it is a given that we don't choose the self-defense circumstance we may someday find ourselves in, then we also can't choose the parameters of that situation!! Grappling happens!! 
If you are concerned that a man would have the upper-hand against you while grappling...perhaps.
But that upper hand would by tenfold if you have NO skill or ability in the grappling phase of combat.
Do it all.

Your Brother
John
PS: Besides, if you are talking about engaging in 'sport-grappling' my answer is the same. Since when should we limit ourselves according to what others may have the upper-hand in? If we do that we are ruled by our shortcomings.
Not a good way to live.
DIG in and enjoy!


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Jul 12, 2004)

There seem to be three issues here:

1) the possible size advantage between two people engaged in grappling

2) the obvious sex bias this brings up, as most women are smaller and shorter than most men (although I have a few girl friends who are amazingly strong grapplers that surprise people)

3) the question about women training in grappling and their likelihood of being attacked and/or raped.



> As for women, I believe grappling is the BEST self defense tool for them. Most _attackers _of women are would be rapists and the woman can defend herself with the man in her "guard" and every other position.


I agree, for the most part, with what has been said here - that women should train grappling to have all-around skills, just as men should.  I also think that grappling in particular is a good self-defense tool.  One thing that is not _emphasized_ in grappling training, however, is what to do when someone gets your back.  A large percentage of rapes (both "date rapes" and strangers attacking") are successful when the rapist can surprise a woman or somehow get her so she is face down on the floor.  If people want to train women to deal with potential rapists, aside from the critical parts of training where (GROSS GENERALIZATION COMING!) women can learn to switch over their general urges to protect or value others above themselves, and attack BACK even when startled, then kickboxing, clinching, and grappling, with the attacker trying to get your back, should be trained.

Myself, it seems like women take to grappling pretty quickly, even when it's frustruating.  It's nice to be able to use those strong legs and low center of mass!


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 12, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> BINGO !!! ​
> 
> A "HUMAN" should be knowledgeable in ALL aspects of combat if she is to survive!!! IF it is a given that we don't choose the self-defense circumstance we may someday find ourselves in, then we also can't choose the parameters of that situation!! Grappling happens!!
> If you are concerned that a man would have the upper-hand against you while grappling...perhaps.
> ...


  Well said Brother John I found that to be true just recently :asian:


----------



## Ceicei (Jul 12, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a seminar that Carlson Gracie Jr. was teaching.It was a two day seminar and the guy I worked with on the first day had to leave and I was left to train with whoever didn't have a partner,I ended up with this 62 yr old woman.When I went to get into her gaurd with her on the ground she said"Great!! it's been too long since I had a man between my legs!"Man! did I feel weird!She hit on me the whole time,not to mention how she was pulling me towards her instead what she was suppost to be doing.I almost asked her to pay me for working with her.I felt so cheap!


Thanks for the laugh!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Did you have to :whip: fend her off? 

That gives hope for when somebody turns 62.... :uhyeah:

- Ceicei


----------



## Brother John (Jul 13, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> I was left to train with whoever didn't have a partner,I ended up with this 62 yr old woman.When I went to get into her gaurd with her on the ground she said"Great!! it's been too long since I had a man between my legs!"Man! did I feel weird!She hit on me the whole time,not to mention how she was pulling me towards her instead  what she was suppost to be doing.I almost asked her to pay me for working with her.I felt so cheap!



 :boing2: 
Geee Mrs. Kleaver...
you sure look lovely today!!!
 :uhyeah: 
Your Brother
John


----------



## shesulsa (Jul 13, 2004)

I got myself into martial arts for self-defense - not to compete in tournaments, spar with every imaginable student, win trophies or lose and shame my teacher...none of that.  I got into this to feel even a fraction safer than I did before.  And I do.

 I believe in loading up your personal arsenal with as much ammo as possible.  The bad guys have guns and knives - do you?  If you had one, would you know how to use it?  Can you tell the difference between a semi-automatic and a full automatic?  

 Martial arts training is rampant as well.  Lots of people play-wrestle, pseudo-grapple if they don't do it in a dojo/dojang.  And they are prepared to fight quick - especially when it comes to wrestling.  Think about it - they watch it...study it visually...goof around with it, try it out.  So this is another weapon they have that you need.

 Bottom line?  Grapple, girl - OOPS! - I mean, Ma'am:ultracool.  There is technique in grappling, too and if you have them in your guard, you are actually at an advantage...just look out for pokey things in that position.  Pull one leg higher up (around his neck), pull an arm towards you, and squeeze your legs - choke 'em out! 



			
				JDenz said:
			
		

> ...a rape has to be quick. If you can fight him off even a minute he will have to get out of there.


 Actually, rape is a crime of power-over that involves the use of sex as a weapon.  Rapists don't like to hurry - they will drag it out for as long as possible.  Nowadays, they really like to kill the woman afterwards so she can't blab.  Interestingly, most rapes occur between people who know each other, which doesn't work well for the victim in court.  But that's a whole different topic.


----------



## lvwhitebir (Jul 13, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Interestingly, most rapes occur between people who know each other, which doesn't work well for the victim in court.  But that's a whole different topic.



Fortunately for the bad guy, less than 40% of the attacks are reported to the police.  In one college campus study, less than 5% were reported.

WhiteBirch


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 21, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> As for if its good for a woman to learn? Yes! Most of the time, the attacker is going to be trying to take her to the ground, and having the skills to defend herself, get back to her feet and run and very important. Keep in mind, in the street, there are no rules, so an eye gouge, rake to the face, fish hook, biting, spitting, hitting the groin, etc. are all legal.


I agree with everyone here that learning how to grapple is important. I also agree that in a "real" fight we should do all the things Mike describes above. In sparring in my school we rarely, if ever, go to the ground. I think it's important for women to grapple because in a defense against a rapist you will wind up on the ground. In sparring I can't really do what I would in the street as a woman, but I do find other options. In a real fight I would kick my attacker in the groin, in sparring I have to use my speed to evade and create other openings, as I can't really hit the guys in their groin. Is it the same or different for grappling? In training in grappling situations how as woman do we learn to grapple fairly with a 200+ pound training partner when we can't do the instinctual things we may need to do in reality to roll him over and get away? How do you train for reality without really hurting your partners? Can anyone give examples of grappling techniques that are specific to women or let's say a smaller opponent that helps gain leverage without hurting someone?


----------



## lvwhitebir (Jul 22, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> In a real fight I would kick my attacker in the groin, in sparring I have to use my speed to evade and create other openings, as I can't really hit the guys in their groin. Is it the same or different for grappling? In training in grappling situations how as woman do we learn to grapple fairly with a 200+ pound training partner when we can't do the instinctual things we may need to do in reality to roll him over and get away? How do you train for reality without really hurting your partners? Can anyone give examples of grappling techniques that are specific to women or let's say a smaller opponent that helps gain leverage without hurting someone?



Two things.  First sparring and self-defense are related, but not the same thing.  There are rules for sparring and not for self-defense.  So you should train them both and understand the differences.

The same goes for grappling.  Grappling is all about leverage and positioning.  You should learn how to move into more favorable positions without having to use much strength.  Therefore, a smaller person can out maneuver a larger person.  Also, grappling can be practiced with more self-defense aspects or more sport aspects.  You need to understand the difference.  In a self-defense aspect, you can strike, kick, bite, gouge, grab, rip, tear, whatever in order to facilitate your escape.  What training in grappling provides is the knowledge and practice of what really would work and what just gets you in more danger.  You will react how you train.  If you don't practice grappling skills, they won't be there to help you when you need them.

Here's an example from someone I see that doesn't practice any grappling skills.  A 300lb rapist is sitting on your stomach.  You push at his chest (you can't reach his face), striking it with your fists, to no avail.  He grabs your wrists, taking even that away from you.  He's practically laughing at you.  You squirm and struggle but get no where.  You burn a lot of energy trying futily to escape.  Eventually he's got you.  Some people have turned over onto their stomach, trying to deny that the guy is on them.  Some have simply given up.

Here's a grappling example.  A 300lb rapist (by the way, this is unrealistic because most attackers are 170lbs, your average guy) is sitting on your stomach.  You know that you can't generate enough power from your back to really hurt him, so you don't try.  You know that you're in almost the worst position possible (the only one worse is if he's on your back) and know that you *have to* improve your position if you have any chance to succeed.  You can try to roll him over using an umpa (bridge and roll), but you probably won't succeed since you've practiced it a million times on someone his size.  But, what you probably can do is what's called an elbow escape and get to a position where he's between your legs and your feet are gripping his hips (open guard).  You know that this is an "even" position, where both of you have strikes and defenses available.  You then straighten one leg, locking it out and sit up.  He can't get closer to you because your leg keeps him away.  You are free to use your hands to strike him (slaps for instance) and your free leg to kick him (stomp kicks).  Once he backs away enough, you can use your speed to turn over into a sprinter's stride and bolt or what's called "standing in base", depending on where he's at.

I have practiced this, nearly full contact, in my self-defense course.  I wore head gear and a chest protector.  They whacked me good, but they learned what power they still possessed in that and several other positions.

I'm over 200lbs and have been "tapped out" by little 110lb women.  One little slip and they can choke you until you pass out or break your arm off with a little push.

WhiteBirch


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 22, 2004)

lvwhitebir said:
			
		

> The same goes for grappling. Grappling is all about leverage and positioning. You should learn how to move into more favorable positions without having to use much strength. Therefore, a smaller person can out maneuver a larger person. Also, grappling can be practiced with more self-defense aspects or more sport aspects. You need to understand the difference. In a self-defense aspect, you can strike, kick, bite, gouge, grab, rip, tear, whatever in order to facilitate your escape. What training in grappling provides is the knowledge and practice of what really would work and what just gets you in more danger. You will react how you train. If you don't practice grappling skills, they won't be there to help you when you need them.


Good ...thanks...



> Here's an example from someone I see that doesn't practice any grappling skills. A 300lb rapist is sitting on your stomach. You push at his chest (you can't reach his face), striking it with your fists, to no avail. He grabs your wrists, taking even that away from you. He's practically laughing at you. You squirm and struggle but get no where. You burn a lot of energy trying futily to escape. Eventually he's got you. Some people have turned over onto their stomach, trying to deny that the guy is on them. Some have simply given up.


Similar to sparring, eventually wasted energy can lead to defeat...



> Here's a grappling example. A 300lb rapist (by the way, this is unrealistic because most attackers are 170lbs, your average guy) is sitting on your stomach. You know that you can't generate enough power from your back to really hurt him, so you don't try. You know that you're in almost the worst position possible (the only one worse is if he's on your back) and know that you *have to* improve your position if you have any chance to succeed. You can try to roll him over using an umpa (bridge and roll), but you probably won't succeed since you've practiced it a million times on someone his size.


From the scenario here rolling him over sounds too late I can see that, but side note here it would seem to be advantageous to try that if you can before he gets you to the point where he is on your stomach. At what point are you considered to be grappling? Is it from the moment when you both hit the ground? 




> But, what you probably can do is what's called an elbow escape and get to a position where he's between your legs and your feet are gripping his hips (open guard). You know that this is an "even" position, where both of you have strikes and defenses available. You then straighten one leg, locking it out and sit up. He can't get closer to you because your leg keeps him away. You are free to use your hands to strike him (slaps for instance) and your free leg to kick him (stomp kicks). Once he backs away enough, you can use your speed to turn over into a sprinter's stride and bolt or what's called "standing in base", depending on where he's at.


 Is this a move that involves "walking" your shoulder blades back? How are you using your elbows here? Aside from our SD techniques a long time ago in our women's class we did a "rape escape". At some point a rapist must let go of one of your arms to remove his pants or open his zipper in some way...we were taught to wait to try and make a move until then. Going with the scenario that the guy is on your stomach and your arms are pinned do you recommend waiting for that moment or do you think a woman should make a move sooner?



> I have practiced this, nearly full contact, in my self-defense course. I wore head gear and a chest protector. They whacked me good, but they learned what power they still possessed in that and several other positions.
> 
> I'm over 200lbs and have been "tapped out" by little 110lb women. One little slip and they can choke you until you pass out or break your arm off with a little push.
> 
> WhiteBirch


 VERY  

Thanks WhiteBirch!

MJ


----------



## Ceicei (Jul 22, 2004)

MJ, you asked "When does grappling start?"

There is both stand-up grappling and ground grappling, so to answer your question, grappling begins when both you and the rapist are in physical contact with each other, within grabbing range.

I've started cross training with judo (my primary art is kenpo).  I have learned that judo is about balancing/counter-balancing.  I also learned that judo is more about using skill in manuveuring than strength; using your opponent's moves against him--regardless if standing or on the ground.   Whitebirch is correct: when grappling principles are understood and applied, it is possible to out-manuveur another person twice your weight.

- Ceicei


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 22, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> MJ, you asked "When does grappling start?"
> 
> There is both stand-up grappling and ground grappling, so to answer your question, grappling begins when both you and the rapist are in physical contact with each other, within grabbing range.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer Ceicei  .  Judo sounds like a nice compliment to Kenpo!

MJ


----------



## hedgehogey (Jul 22, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> From the scenario here rolling him over sounds too late I can see that, but side note here it would seem to be advantageous to try that if you can before he gets you to the point where he is on your stomach.


Not really. You should be using the guard to *prevent* him from mounting you.
And rolling (Umpa) can be useful vs. a large man. It depends on his balance.



> At what point are you considered to be grappling? Is it from the moment when you both hit the ground?


Any time you are grabbed, you are grappling.



> Is this a move that involves "walking" your shoulder blades back?


The shoulder blades aren't important. You're imitating the action of a shrimp by turning to one side and connecting your knee and elbow.



> How are you using your elbows here?


To make space, you push his thigh back with your knee or elbow. Then you connect your knee and elbow through the gap.



> Aside from our SD techniques a long time ago in our women's class we did a "rape escape". At some point a rapist must let go of one of your arms to remove his pants or open his zipper in some way...we were taught to wait to try and make a move until then.


Bad idea. He might punch or choke you first. Getting out of mount immediately is top priority.



> Going with the scenario that the guy is on your stomach and your arms are pinned do you recommend waiting for that moment or do you think a woman should make a move sooner?


Start escaping immediately. All escapes in grappling work much better if used before the opponent is comfortable in his position.


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 22, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> The shoulder blades aren't important. You're imitating the action of a shrimp by turning to one side and connecting your knee and elbow.


 I usually eat them...I'll have to start watching them now! :uhyeah: 




> To make space, you push his thigh back with your knee or elbow. Then you connect your knee and elbow through the gap.


 I can see using your elbow. If he's on your stomach how do you use your knee to create distance? When you say connect do you mean looping your arm around the back of your knee joint?




> Bad idea. He might punch or choke you first. Getting out of mount immediately is top priority. Start escaping immediately. All escapes in grappling work much better if used before the opponent is comfortable in his position.


It seems to make sense...

Thanks,
MJ :asian:


----------



## Ceicei (Jul 22, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I usually eat them...I'll have to start watching them now! :uhyeah:


Try flexing your finger. It kinda looks like that...



> I can see using your elbow. If he's on your stomach how do you use your knee to create distance? When you say connect do you mean looping your arm around the back of your knee joint?


I believe he means that after you have pushed his thigh back with your knee or elbow, this creates just enough space under him for you to "shrimp". Shrimping means you get on your side and draw your own knees up to your elbows quickly to allow you to get out from under him. 

- Ceicei


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 22, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Try flexing your finger. It kinda looks like that...


Look at that I'm a shrimp... 



> I believe he means that after you have pushed his thigh back with your knee or elbow just enough to allow more space for you to "shrimp". It means you get on your side and draw your own knees up to your elbows quickly to allow you to get out from under him.
> 
> - Ceicei


Ok got the shrimp imagery but how do you use your knee to move him back if he is on your stomach, and your knee is behind his back and below his legs?

Thanks,
MJ :asian:


----------



## Sarah (Jul 22, 2004)

Nightingale said:
			
		

> how practical is grappling for women? it would seem as if the larger opponent would have an advantage...??


A smaller person could be more agile, flexible, faster, weather it is a man or a woman.

In real life application a small person that is a good grappler against a big person that doesnt, my money is on the small person.


----------



## Ceicei (Jul 22, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Ok got the shrimp imagery but how do you use your knee to move him back if he is on your stomach, and your knee is behind his back and below his legs?


Very good question. In judo, I would do "bridging", which means trying to unbalance him by drawing my feet up closer to the floor and bucking up my hips, then once his weight is a bit off me, I'll move further to push his knee away downward to continue unbalancing him then shrimp.  Naturally, I'll use my hands to help unbalance him while I'm bridging.

There are other moves though...

- Ceicei


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 22, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Very good question. In judo, I would do "bridging", which means trying to unbalance him by drawing my feet up closer to the floor and bucking up my hips, then once his weight is a bit off me, I'll move further to push his knee away downward to continue unbalancing him then shrimp. Naturally, I'll use my hands to help unbalance him while I'm bridging.
> 
> There are other moves though...
> 
> - Ceicei


It sounds a little like something we worked that one time.  We waited for him to unzip (release your one hand) and then tipped him over with our hips...not quite the same, but I'll have to give your way a try.  Ceicei just curious, do you find it awkward to work this type of close contact with guys?

MJ :asian:


----------



## Ceicei (Jul 22, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> It sounds a little like something we worked that one time. We waited for him to unzip (release your one hand) and then tipped him over with our hips...not quite the same, but I'll have to give your way a try.


It does take practice and timing.




> Ceicei just curious, do you find it awkward to work this type of close contact with guys?


No, not now.  Had I tried judo several years ago, it probably would have been too much.  But time, good friends, and Kenpo has a way of preparing me.

- Ceicei


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 22, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> [/size][/font][/color]
> It does take practice and timing.
> 
> No, not now. Had I tried judo several years ago, it probably would have been too much. But time, good friends, and Kenpo has a way of preparing me.
> ...


 I'm so glad you are ok with it!  Good friends, and the fact that you are also taking Judo now helps I guess.  I really want to work some of these things, but being that I study Kenpo I find it awkward to even ask.  LOL:lol: what do you say, um... excuse me, will you please sit on my stomach?...just seems a little funny in a Kenpo school is all.

MJ :asian:


----------



## Ceicei (Jul 22, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I'm so glad you are ok with it! Good friends, and the fact that you are also taking Judo now helps I guess. I really want to work some of these things, but being that I study Kenpo I find it awkward to even ask. LOL:lol: what do you say, um... excuse me, will you please sit on my stomach?...just seems a little funny in a Kenpo school is all.
> 
> MJ :asian:


When I started thinking seriously about cross-training with judo, I asked my kenpo instructor what he thought if I went ahead to take it up.  He already knew about my background and encouraged me to go ahead, saying that judo will mesh well with kenpo in giving me some additional tools for self defense.  He had taken judo before, so he knew what would be involved with that style.  He emphasized the night before my first class in judo to "be sure to empty your glass" of kenpo and my experiences.  He didn't want me to go in there with any preconceived ideas or try to compare with what I had trained.

He also is willing to be my partner if needed if I came away from my judo class confused about something I may have learned.  In fact, half of the kenpo instructors at my school have previously studied judo.  

He showed me, for example, doing a Delayed Sword and adding a judo shoulder throw at the end.  Really cool and takes the attacker by surprise!

- Ceicei


----------



## lvwhitebir (Jul 23, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Aside from our SD techniques a long time ago in our women's class we did a "rape escape". At some point a rapist must let go of one of your arms to remove his pants or open his zipper in some way...we were taught to wait to try and make a move until then. Going with the scenario that the guy is on your stomach and your arms are pinned do you recommend waiting for that moment or do you think a woman should make a move sooner?



The sooner you start your defense the better.  Waiting for the "right" moment may make it so that when it comes you are in a worse position for responding.

The only problem with doing the umpa quickly is that you have to have control of an arm and a leg to make it work.  If he's sitting up, he simply puts his arm out to stop himself from rolling.  That's when the elbow escape works well.  If he counters the elbow escape, you can simply return to the umpa.

If you do the umpa right, it's very hard for him to maintain his balance while either holding you, hitting you, or taking off clothes to rape you.  It uses the strongest muscles in your body (glutes and thighs), so you have a lot of strength already there to do the move.  And, the longer it takes, the less likely he'll be able to pull it off.

There are several great books on grappling and BJJ.  IMO, the Gracie grappling book is terrific for learning self-defense applications over gi-oriented books.  At least check them out to see the details of the moves.  When practicing, it's better to find someone who's at least somewhat trained with the move (since leverage over strength is so important) rather than just anybody.

It's a fun venture to start.  When I started, the school I was in had a lot of women in it.  Since the women couldn't out-muscle the guys, they had to learn leverage faster and were thus able to learn a lot faster than most of the guys.

WhiteBirch


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 23, 2004)

lvwhitebir said:
			
		

> The sooner you start your defense the better. Waiting for the "right" moment may make it so that when it comes you are in a worse position for responding.
> 
> The only problem with doing the umpa quickly is that you have to have control of an arm and a leg to make it work. If he's sitting up, he simply puts his arm out to stop himself from rolling. That's when the elbow escape works well. If he counters the elbow escape, you can simply return to the umpa.
> 
> ...


Thanks WhiteBirch!

I got a series of Gracie videos from a friend and at a glance they looked great and actually they sparked my interest in grappling, but I need time to watch them  , and more importantly I think you are right I need to work with people who know what they are doing.  When I get a chance...I'll look for the umpa in the videos.

MJ :asian:


----------



## Phoenix44 (Jul 23, 2004)

I've been grappling for about 5 years. It's part, but not all, of our curriculum. I've come to this conclusion: Skill compensates for small size, to an extent. But size matters, and strength matters. 

I am usually the only woman in my class. It's a class of black belt students, and our dojo has only 2 black belt women. We're all skilled, we're all fit. At least 3 of the men in the class are 200+ lbs. The smallest is 160 lbs--and he's the instructor. I weigh 125 lbs. So what's the outcome? I rarely submit my opponent, but I'm almost never submitted. My feeling is this: if I can hold one of my opponents to a stalement for more than a minute or two, then I've won, baby.

It's made me a skilled grappler, and I appreciate that. However, it makes it impossible for me to know if my technique really works when a 200 lb male can simply "strength out" my locks, or lift me off them!

Self-defense is one thing, when dirty tricks come into play. But for the purpose of sport, let's face it, there's a reason for weight classifications.


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 23, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> I've been grappling for about 5 years. It's part, but not all, of our curriculum. I've come to this conclusion: Skill compensates for small size, to an extent. But size matters, and strength matters.
> 
> My feeling is this: if I can hold one of my opponents to a stalement for more than a minute or two, then I've won, baby.











> It's made me a skilled grappler, and I appreciate that. However, it makes it impossible for me to know if my technique really works when a 200 lb male can simply "strength out" my locks, or lift me off them!
> 
> Self-defense is one thing, when dirty tricks come into play. But for the purpose of sport, let's face it, there's a reason for weight classifications.


I guess for women (men too) in any MA it comes down to avoiding having a false sense of security involving how skilled you are. It's good to hear also from a woman who has grappled. I agree about the weight classifications for sport purposes! Also, I think I mentioned upthread that in a real fight I'd have different choices or as you say dirty tricks to try that could change the game as well. All in all, it sounds like you find your training in grappling worthwhile!

MJ


----------



## Fightfan00 (Jul 25, 2004)

I think that grappling is the same for a man and woman.Its all how you apply the full package together.Just grapple and fight dirty.Through in some eye poking,and pinching and your good to go!


----------



## brothershaw (Jul 25, 2004)

This may have been said before but -
And I am not a grappler
But I think it is good for women to learn some grappling, they made find themselves in a position where the attacker is trying to just outmuscle and pin them, and knowing what to do , and how to move would be alot more helpful than trying to match muscle. 
    A man attacking a woman may me more ready to try wrestle a woman because of his supposed size or strength advantage, for a woman who knows how to wrestle, and joint lock to break the joints, she  would be working at her advantage. 
               I could be completely wrong.


----------



## DeLamar.J (Jul 26, 2004)

Nightingale said:
			
		

> how practical is grappling for women?  it would seem as if the larger opponent would have an advantage...??



I feel that grappling is great for women as well as men because when you put your whole body on one limb or joint, you can control almost anyone no matter what your size, unless your the size of a little kid or something. But once you learn to aplly the holds properly, a woman can submit a man. Especially if he underestimates her. And most men are very foolish to underestimate a woman, and there pride pays dearly :waah: .
 When I was in highschool I taught my girlfriend, now my wife, how to arm wrestle, to put her wieght into it properly and to start out with everything she had. I wouldnt ever let her arm wrestle anyone but me. Then we were all arm wrestling one day and she ended up arm wrestling this guy and he was laughing because she only weighs about 100 pounds, then they start and she slammed his arm down and caught him off gaurd, in was very funny,everyone was laughing, it was classic :boing2: . He never lived that down. But the moral of the story is NEVER underestimate a woman.
 I also did alot of work with her on a sleeper hold and she could choke out most men if she got the chance to apply the hold. When my friends come over and we start playing around I will bet them that they will have to tap out if she puts them in a sleeper, and they always do, even myself. And remember my wife weighs 100 pounds and I am 205 pounds.
 I figured that type of technique would be useful incase we were ever in a situation with multiple attackers, while they are worried about taking me out and not giving the slightest worry of a 100lb girl standing there afraid, she could run up and choke one of those jerks until I could come over and finish them off or until he passes out.


----------



## Lisa (Aug 2, 2004)

:shrug: :shrug: 





			
				DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> I feel that grappling is great for women as well as men because when you put your whole body on one limb or joint, you can control almost anyone no matter what your size, unless your the size of a little kid or something. But once you learn to aplly the holds properly, a woman can submit a man. Especially if he underestimates her. And most men are very foolish to underestimate a woman, and there pride pays dearly :waah: .


LOL!  My 100 pound daughter loves going up against the new guys in our grappling classes.  They all look at her the same way kinda like... hmmm...what can she possibly do to me!  In a short instance once they are on the ground and fall into her guillotene (sp?) choke they find out exactly what she can do... it usually only takes a few seconds :lol: 

We both love grappling.  It is challenging, fun and one heckuva workout.  I go up against guys that are easily 100 pounds bigger then me.  Sometimes I find myself dangling off of their arms when they decide to just sit up while I am trying to execute a lock or something :shrug:.  All in good fun and a great learning experience


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 2, 2004)

Yeah, my daughter is rather vertically challenged and cute as a button.  She looks like a little doll.  All the eastern bloc boys in her class were so not impressed when they learned she took martial arts lessons, they challenged her often.  When I came to volunteer in her classroom at school, I found she had told them that she can pick me up on her back and hold me there (as in Judo training).  They said, 'No you can't.'  She looked at me and I obliged her.  She picked up all 185 pounds of me (I was heavier then) on her hips and walked across the class with me like that.  So one particular eastern bloc boy says, "so what - that's easy."  So I waved him over and asked if he'd like to try it.  "Sure."  He pulled in next to me and as soon as he tried to lift, his little knees just buckled under him.  Poor little guy, hee hee hee hee.

 BTW - she's eleven...and she LOVES to grapple.  Just wait until I teach her chokes a few years down the road.  She'll be deadly.  No guy who tries to attack her will go unmarked.

 HWARANG!!!


----------



## Lisa (Aug 2, 2004)

I also have a 10 year old.  She loves to grapple too!  Her coach has been teaching her chokes, but only to be applied to him, which she very much obliges .

The newer kids in the class take her for granted sometimes and so do the boys but no one can take your back and put you in a rear naked choke (done to the other kids without the choke part) faster then she can... it has become her trade mark.

Ahh... what a proud mom I truly am!


----------



## Insedia_Cantharis (Aug 3, 2004)

Being big CAN definetly be an advantage, but if you lack skill it is useless. I'm been doing MMA, and in that form Grappling, for a year and a half. I weigh 105 soking wet. I can tell you with no ego that I make myself proud of being the smallest in class, because I still hold my own.

I'm a female, I grapple, and I like it. 

If you are thinking of starting, (and I'm making a blind guess there) I say go for it. You'll have fun.


----------



## Barra Brazil (Aug 13, 2004)

i believe that the most important tool a woman has is her mind. all the moves in the world won't do you one bit of good if you get yourself into a trully dangerous situation. i can give you an example. a good friend of mine was on a bus in southern mexico. the bus was stopped by the military. they walked through the bus and grabbed all the blonde women and led them off the bus to a shack. well, my friend and her sister had already made a crucial mistake. letting your blonde show on a night bus in southern mexico. when things were about to get bad, my friend used the only weapon she had, her mind. she looked the captian in the eyes and asked him how he would feel if this was about to happen to his sister or mother. blew his buzz bad.  he sent all the women back on the bus and that was that. now that is martial arts. know your opponent. mexican men are very protective of their sisters and mothers. i've taught rape defence classes and it always seems that people want a quick and easy way to defeat an attacker. well sorry, hate to be the one to give you the bad news but, it doesn't work that way folks. this is not some coriographed(sp?) movie scene. combat is chaos and you better be ready to fight for your life. you can not and must not under estimate your attacker. to ask a question like "is grappling something a woman should train in" seems a bit silly. if you want to be prepared to deal with an attack, you should be grappling four to six hours a week. you should be in a muay thai or other striking class four to six hours a week. you should have a weapon and know how to use it. does a bigger person have an advantage? come on people. don't ever assume your attacker is a dumbass who just got off the boat. do you think that every rapist is on his fist try? guess again. do you think none of his previous victims went for his balls? tried to poke him in the eyes? come on people. do you think you can take a solid blow to the head? or stomach? you had better train and train hard. we've all heard about the girl who stopped an attacker after three months of aikido. great. don't bet your life on it. the truth is you have no idea what will happen in an attack. i love bjj. i train six days a week. to choke out or armbar someone who is bigger and stronger than you, and can blast you in the head, takes a whole lot of training. stopping that someone from knocking you down takes a whole lot of training. so get to it. and don't stop. you will not be ready to fight if you don't make it a part of your life. good luck with your training.

mc


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 13, 2004)

Wow mc interesting first post! Welcome! After reading this I think I really haven't been training hard enough. I'm curious after reading your story about the Mexican bus...What usually happens to blondes in Mexico? Are they raped, murdered, sold into slavery? What's the rest of that story?


----------



## Ceicei (Aug 13, 2004)

Barra Brazil,

Welcome to MartialTalk!  Strong words and very much welcomed!  We are glad to have you with us.  Come browse the other threads too and comment.

- Ceicei


----------

