# Importance of takedowns



## Echsos (May 8, 2006)

At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet.  Not trying to be mean or anything but as a wrestler it kinda bugs me that they don't even try to take somebody down and establish a dominant position, instead they just try to fall into guard.  My takedown skills are probably my best skills in grappling(I train them extensively) and in my opinion, I feel that takedowns are something that should be mastered or at least spent more time on.  Good takedowns will result in you earning points in competition and being able to dictate the pace of the match and occasionally what position you fall into after the takedown.  So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?


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## Makalakumu (May 8, 2006)

Echsos said:
			
		

> At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet. Not trying to be mean or anything but as a wrestler it kinda bugs me that they don't even try to take somebody down and establish a dominant position, instead they just try to fall into guard. My takedown skills are probably my best skills in grappling(I train them extensively) and in my opinion, I feel that takedowns are something that should be mastered or at least spent more time on. Good takedowns will result in you earning points in competition and being able to dictate the pace of the match and occasionally what position you fall into after the takedown. So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?


 
I also think from a SD POV, learning to do your takedowns well is important.  For one thing, then you can practice defended against them.  For another, jumping into the guard is a good way to get body slammed on something nasty...


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## Echsos (May 8, 2006)

Too many BJJ practitioners rely on the guard jump to go to the ground.  I think they definitely need to practice takedowns enough until they're comfortable attempting takedowns.  I don't know about BJJ but in wrestling so many matches have lost by a point or two, points that can easily be scored by a takedown.  So if you are down by a point or two you can easily catch up and win the match by taking them down.


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## Eternal Beginner (May 8, 2006)

Echsos said:
			
		

> At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet.



Too bad you train at a club like that.  You are right, the takedown points can make a difference, but as a wrestler you probably have some great takedown skills already.  Maybe you can show some of your BJJ brethren some of your takedowns?


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

Echsos said:
			
		

> So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?



As someone that likes to punch I'd say takedowns are very important.  Can't defend what you can't do...

Sport grappling has it's own set of things that work though, even top guys jump guard (Eddie Bravo jumping half guard anyone?)


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## Eric Daniel (May 9, 2006)

Echsos said:
			
		

> At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet. Not trying to be mean or anything but as a wrestler it kinda bugs me that they don't even try to take somebody down and establish a dominant position, instead they just try to fall into guard. My takedown skills are probably my best skills in grappling(I train them extensively) and in my opinion, I feel that takedowns are something that should be mastered or at least spent more time on. Good takedowns will result in you earning points in competition and being able to dictate the pace of the match and occasionally what position you fall into after the takedown. So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?


 
I think that takedowns should be emphasized just as much as other things such as the guard. I have a question, if you can't take a person down how do you get into a dominant position whether it be the guard, mount, etc.?


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## green meanie (May 9, 2006)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> I think that takedowns should be emphasized just as much as other things such as the guard. I have a question, if you can't take a person down how do you get into a dominant position whether it be the guard, mount, etc.?


 
Good question. I can't imagine having my art revolve around groundwork and not take the time to work on a takedown to get someone there. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case at most BJJ schools I've been in; session after session of crawling around on my hands and knees and never working on a single takedown. I disagree with it.


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## patroldawg27 (May 10, 2006)

There are times when we strictly work on our ground game but we have just as many classes where we work takedowns for the majority of the class. I would much rather initiate the takedown than have to imeediately go on the defensive.


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## WilliamJ (May 23, 2006)

Grappling is about control, controlling your opponent, controlling the position. If you cannot control how the fight/match goes to the ground you are missing a big piece. Even if you prefer to play the guard game you still want to be the one to determine when and how you get there. Takedowns are a must have.


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## Rook (May 23, 2006)

Definately.  Everytime I read stuff on the MMA boards BJJ people are complaining about how poor someone's takedown is, and with wrestlers increasingly becoming common in MMA complete with their superior takedown defense learning good throws and takedowns is probably going to be a must for anyone looking to compete.


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## MattJ (May 23, 2006)

WilliamJ said:
			
		

> Grappling is about control, controlling your opponent, controlling the position. If you cannot control how the fight/match goes to the ground you are missing a big piece. Even if you prefer to play the guard game you still want to be the one to determine when and how you get there. Takedowns are a must have.


 
Well said, WilliamJ. I train BJJ as an adjunct to my other SD stuff. I am not a fan of "jumping to guard", and would rather try a takedown. Although I agree with Andrew that in sports BJJ, it is a viable technique. Meh.


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## bladenosh (Jun 23, 2006)

They can put you in a dominant position immediately and give you the initiative. Hands down, takedowns give you points in a match. What I care about is the street. 

In street fights I'll go into the clinch to get out of punching range if he outstands me, and let him go for the takedown. I defend as long as it takes until he gets frustrated, then I'll go down with one and make him still think he's setting the pace. Then I push him to my closed guard and relax while he fights around for something. When I see his muscles start turning red from fatigue, I'll go in for my submission and turn the tides of the fight. The beauty of it is the deception. They think they had you for the first 15 moves, then BAM the last 2 win it for you. This has worked for me many times in the past, especially against stronger opponents who think they undoubtedly can muscle through anything. Once that ATP is depleted, they are weaker than a 115 lb girl.

Every fight is different. If I'm in a different mood or have something to prove, I'll get the takedown and everything. I like deception though. Making all think I am weak and lucky, when really its been in my hands the whole time. I find when I fight in front of my girlfriend is the only time I really go for my takedowns to a hold, then submit.


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## matt.m (Jun 23, 2006)

Echsos said:
			
		

> At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet. Not trying to be mean or anything but as a wrestler it kinda bugs me that they don't even try to take somebody down and establish a dominant position, instead they just try to fall into guard. My takedown skills are probably my best skills in grappling(I train them extensively) and in my opinion, I feel that takedowns are something that should be mastered or at least spent more time on. Good takedowns will result in you earning points in competition and being able to dictate the pace of the match and occasionally what position you fall into after the takedown. So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?


 
Dude I am with you 100%.  I tell you this for sure that you are correct.  He is why I agree.  In grade school I wrestled optimist, in high school I wrestled and well as Judo and USA free style wrestling.  I wrestled and practiced Judo while I served in the Marine Corps.  I am with you, take downs are mondo imprtant.


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## Stan (Jun 23, 2006)

Every art trains with paradigms, and these paradigms can be limiting.  It is almost a cliche how many strikers ignore ground work, but on the other hand, fights don't just _go _to the ground, especially against a striker with a solid stance who knows how not to overcommit to his strikes.  Try training against a friend who specializes in a stand-up style.  Friendly, light contact, MMA rules.  He is not going to want to go to the ground, and is going to do everything in his power to keep from getting there.  He knows you have him there.  The question is, does he have you before it can become a ground fight?  

It is a problem if most of your training just assumes "two guys on the ground".


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## green meanie (Jun 23, 2006)

I don't care how solid a striker's stance is. If he doesn't learn to sprawl he's gonna get taken down.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 23, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> I don't care how solid a striker's stance is. If he doesn't learn to sprawl he's gonna get taken down.


 
Absolutely!


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## Andrew Green (Jun 23, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> I don't care how solid a striker's stance is. If he doesn't learn to sprawl he's gonna get taken down.



Yeah, I never get that claim.

Seems like a wrestler claiming that if someone has a really good side control they will be really hard to punch in the face...

If you want to stop takedowns you need to train at stopping takedowns, not rooting your self and working your stance.


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## Echsos (Jun 24, 2006)

> They can put you in a dominant position immediately and give you the initiative. Hands down, takedowns give you points in a match. What I care about is the street.
> 
> In street fights I'll go into the clinch to get out of punching range if he outstands me, and let him go for the takedown. I defend as long as it takes until he gets frustrated, then I'll go down with one and make him still think he's setting the pace. Then I push him to my closed guard and relax while he fights around for something. When I see his muscles start turning red from fatigue, I'll go in for my submission and turn the tides of the fight. The beauty of it is the deception. They think they had you for the first 15 moves, then BAM the last 2 win it for you. This has worked for me many times in the past, especially against stronger opponents who think they undoubtedly can muscle through anything. Once that ATP is depleted, they are weaker than a 115 lb girl.
> 
> Every fight is different. If I'm in a different mood or have something to prove, I'll get the takedown and everything. I like deception though. Making all think I am weak and lucky, when really its been in my hands the whole time. I find when I fight in front of my girlfriend is the only time I really go for my takedowns to a hold, then submit.


Personally I would not want to play it slow in a street fight.  My personal view to street fights is to end the fight asap and get the hell out of there.  There are too many outside factors that determine the results of a street fight so I would not risk staying there too long.  If I had to end a fight with grappling skills I would probably go for a double leg and slam him into the pavement then run.  



> Every art trains with paradigms, and these paradigms can be limiting. It is almost a cliche how many strikers ignore ground work, but on the other hand, fights don't just go to the ground, especially against a striker with a solid stance who knows how not to overcommit to his strikes. Try training against a friend who specializes in a stand-up style. Friendly, light contact, MMA rules. He is not going to want to go to the ground, and is going to do everything in his power to keep from getting there. He knows you have him there. The question is, does he have you before it can become a ground fight?
> 
> It is a problem if most of your training just assumes "two guys on the ground".


The reason why grappling dominate a lot of striking arts is simply because it is very easy to tie up with someone.  Fights rarely end in one punch knockouts unless they're sucker punches.  So even if you do eat a punch while trying to clinch you still have it in the end.  And once they're on the ground they're a fish out of water.


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## Brother John (Jun 24, 2006)

patroldawg27 said:
			
		

> There are times when we strictly work on our ground game but we have just as many classes where we work takedowns for the majority of the class. I would much rather initiate the takedown than have to imeediately go on the defensive.


The thing I like about gooooood consistent and solid take-down skills is that IF you take someone down WELL.......that can be it. If you know how to really Slam someone with the Earth; the ground work may be very very simple. I find it EASY to subdue someone who just had a Nasty fall.
(and I'm not even a grappler)

Your Brother
John


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## Eviscerate (Jun 24, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> The thing I like about gooooood consistent and solid take-down skills is that IF you take someone down WELL.......that can be it. If you know how to really Slam someone with the Earth; the ground work may be very very simple. I find it EASY to subdue someone who just had a Nasty fall.
> (and I'm not even a grappler)
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
Especially against bigger guys, it seems the bigger they are in general the slower they are back to their feet, which is often where a big guys mind is at...Mike Stidhams Ultimate Combat Experience has hashed this out over and over.


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## Dark (Jun 26, 2006)

Echsos said:
			
		

> The reason why grappling dominate a lot of striking arts is simply because it is very easy to tie up with someone. Fights rarely end in one punch knockouts unless they're sucker punches. So even if you do eat a punch while trying to clinch you still have it in the end. And once they're on the ground they're a fish out of water.


 
Thats a dangerous assumption, most red neck "street fighters" are good on the ground, they have years of watching WWF/WWE and practicing it on their siblings. The reason why Grappling dominates allot of strikers is self-limitation. Basicly its a matter of choice, allot fo strikers choose to limit themselves only to striking and ignore trapping, grappling and ground work. I know allot of grapplers who go straight for the grappling and neglect the striking purely because they choose to.

Personally these are the guys I love, they have a specific game plan I can avoid or manipulate, its the people who are comfortable at all ranges I worried about...

Oh yeah for the record I've won more fights with sucker punches then joint-locks...


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## WilliamJ (Jun 26, 2006)

Watching pro wrasslin makes you good on the ground? I don't care how many times you pile drive your little brother watching Ric Flair will NOT give you even one little bit of actual grappling skill. That's like saying watching the three stooges makes you a better boxer.


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## Dark (Jun 26, 2006)

WilliamJ said:
			
		

> Watching pro wrasslin makes you good on the ground? I don't care how many times you pile drive your little brother watching Ric Flair will NOT give you even one little bit of actual grappling skill. That's like saying watching the three stooges makes you a better boxer.


 
Believe it or not there are some great grapplers who wrestle professionally, there are also a great many holds that can be applied to do serous harm. I'm not saying nor would I even attempt to say watching something on TV makes you an expert, if thats the case reading a book in kung-fu makes me a shaolin monk.

But I will say just because a person isn't paying for lessons in a gym or dojo, it doesn't mean that person has no concept or even limited expierence in an area. What about the guys who wrestled in highschool, I guess no concept of ground fighting, oh and those are usually the WWE fans


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## Echsos (Jun 26, 2006)

Haha the ones who wrestled in highschools are rarely WWE fans from my experience (I wrestled 3 years in high school myself).  It just so happens that high school wrestlers are fans of UFC so they tend to look for a brazilian jiu jitsu school or submission wrestling school the day they finish their last wrestling practice.  



> Thats a dangerous assumption, most red neck "street fighters" are good on the ground, they have years of watching WWF/WWE and practicing it on their siblings. The reason why Grappling dominates allot of strikers is self-limitation. Basicly its a matter of choice, allot fo strikers choose to limit themselves only to striking and ignore trapping, grappling and ground work. I know allot of grapplers who go straight for the grappling and neglect the striking purely because they choose to.
> 
> Personally these are the guys I love, they have a specific game plan I can avoid or manipulate, its the people who are comfortable at all ranges I worried about...
> 
> Oh yeah for the record I've won more fights with sucker punches then joint-locks...


It seems you are not very familiar with grappling.  Practicing WWF moves will not help you become a good grappler haha.  Although some of the moves are actual submission moves, most of them aren't even practical.  Moving on the ground is not simply two guys hugging each other and trying to out strength him.  It is all about hip movement and sensing what your oppnent is about to do.  

Of course everyone is worried about people who are excellent at all ranges, who isn't?  But I do have to say a pure grappler will beat a pure striker 90 percent of the time simply because it is so much easier to take a person to the ground than to stand and trade punches.  Also, taking someone to the ground is a bit safer than striking (although it all depends on the situation like all things) because once you take someone to the ground, you can use your superior positioning to prevent him from generating power in his strikes.  If you are striking with somebody, however, there is always the chance an unexperienced opponent will catch you with a wild swing and jumble up your noggin'.


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## Dark (Jun 26, 2006)

The wild swing is a myth, an experienced striker will close in to use distance as a way to avoid the full power and any real danger of a hay-maker. The people who have all gotten taken down by a wild swing were usually very inexperienced fighters, strikers and grapplers.

In certain situations I'd go for grappling over striking, but in a streetfight I'll go for the striking. Sadly and I will admit this most strikers intentionallt ignore grappling for whatever reason.


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## Kreth (Jun 26, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> Thats a dangerous assumption, most red neck "street fighters" are good on the ground, they have years of watching WWF/WWE and practicing it on their siblings.


Thanks for the tip, I'll keep this in mind if I'm ever in a barfight and my opponent starts "Hulking up" or drags a thumb across his throat.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 26, 2006)

lol - WWE trained and certified via cable TV 

As silly as it is, there is a bit of a point there, lots of people spend a lot of time wrestling with friends / siblings as they grow up, and some even as adults.  While it is certainly no where near the level of having a instructor and training with a club, it is better then nothing.  Which is all that a lot of people have.


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## Echsos (Jun 26, 2006)

People actually develop bad habits if they roll without an instructor, such as giving up their back or reaching back(a big no-no in wrestling).  Of course we can always say that people could have experience friendly sparring with each other.
On another note, if I ever join the UFC I'm going to have my Martial Art be listed as WWE Style


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## Andrew Green (Jun 26, 2006)

Hulk-do 

Yes, I agree about bad habits, but, still is likely to be better then nothing if they are rolling competitively against each other.


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## Kreth (Jun 26, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> As silly as it is, there is a bit of a point there, lots of people spend a lot of time wrestling with friends / siblings as they grow up, and some even as adults.


I'm going to start working on the Last Ride, maybe even the Crippler Crossface, then I'll be ready to challenge John Cena--er, I mean, defend myself... 

:uhyeah:


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## Andrew Green (Jun 26, 2006)

Maybe we could put out a martialtalk video on weapons work, we could cover folding chairs, stop signs and cookie sheets


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## Kreth (Jun 26, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Maybe we could put out a martialtalk video on weapons work, we could cover folding chairs, stop signs and cookie sheets


How could you forget ringside steps and the infamous Spanish announcer's table? :lol:


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## Dark (Jun 26, 2006)

Echsos said:
			
		

> People actually develop bad habits if they roll without an instructor, such as giving up their back or reaching back(a big no-no in wrestling). Of course we can always say that people could have experience friendly sparring with each other.
> On another note, if I ever join the UFC I'm going to have my Martial Art be listed as WWE Style


 
D0n't knock it Sakaburba (sp?) was a prowrestler


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 26, 2006)

So was Ken Shamrock, so that point is moot.:lol:


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## Echsos (Jun 26, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> D0n't knock it Sakaburba (sp?) was a prowrestler


Of course we must pay our respects to the great Saku .


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## WilliamJ (Jun 28, 2006)

There is a big difference between saying "There are legit grapplers who happen to be pro wrestlers." and saying "Watching pro wrestling makes you a better grappler."

The example of a high school wrestler who is also a WWE fan is completely spurious. If he wrestles he IS a trained grappler.

If you are rolling around with other untrained people you are learning basically nothing that will help with a trained grappler, be it wrestler, Judoka or BJJ guy. That's like saying getting into slap fights as a kid helps you get ready for pro boxing.


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## Dark (Jun 28, 2006)

WilliamJ said:
			
		

> There is a big difference between saying "There are legit grapplers who happen to be pro wrestlers." and saying "Watching pro wrestling makes you a better grappler."


 
Watching alone no, watching and practicing even on other untrained opponents yes. I'm not saying that you can't pick up better skills in a gym, I'm not saying just you don't need instruction. What I am saying is just because someone isn't taught a codified system (martial arts) doesn't mean they can't pick up a few things.

Take a standing switch (wresting) or a cross armbar appied in judo, if you see it as kid and practice it enough to get used to using it. You very well can apply it, though maybe not perfectly so.



			
				WilliamJ said:
			
		

> If you are rolling around with other untrained people you are learning basically nothing that will help with a trained grappler, be it wrestler, Judoka or BJJ guy. That's like saying getting into slap fights as a kid helps you get ready for pro boxing.


 
I've seen good fighter, strikers and grapplers taken down by "surprise techniques" applied by untrained fighters. I never said a untrained fighter could take a trained fighter, I did say there are different standards of training. How many street kids started off slap boxing and learned timing and distance, then applied that in fights and suddenly an untrained fighter that could hold there own against trained fighters. 

Look at Mike Tyson as a kid grew up slap fighting, as a teen grew up street fighting, as an amature boxer dropped most of his peers and quickly when to gold glove and professional boxing. The point is what you define as training has no baring on someone may see as training, all martial arts began as untrained fighters.

Heilo Gracie only watched his brother practice jujitsu, and learned/modified the art from that. He never had formal instruction, thats not to say formal instruction isn't needed but if there is a will there is a way. If you want to grapple bad enough you will grab every source availble to you TV, books, videos, the "Old hole in the fence stories" and fighting with your friends.

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9lio_Gracie


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## Arena Bred (Jul 31, 2006)

bladenosh said:
			
		

> They can put you in a dominant position immediately and give you the initiative. Hands down, takedowns give you points in a match. What I care about is the street.
> 
> In street fights I'll go into the clinch to get out of punching range if he outstands me, and let him go for the takedown. I defend as long as it takes until he gets frustrated, then I'll go down with one and make him still think he's setting the pace. Then I push him to my closed guard and relax while he fights around for something. When I see his muscles start turning red from fatigue, I'll go in for my submission and turn the tides of the fight. The beauty of it is the deception. They think they had you for the first 15 moves, then BAM the last 2 win it for you. This has worked for me many times in the past, especially against stronger opponents who think they undoubtedly can muscle through anything. Once that ATP is depleted, they are weaker than a 115 lb girl.
> 
> Every fight is different. If I'm in a different mood or have something to prove, I'll get the takedown and everything. I like deception though. Making all think I am weak and lucky, when really its been in my hands the whole time. I find when I fight in front of my girlfriend is the only time I really go for my takedowns to a hold, then submit.


 
Grappling is put forward as a means of allowing a smaller man to survive against, or even defeat, a larger opponent. In the past that was more true than it is now. The playing field has been levelled by the proliferation of grappling in MMA and schools across the country.

Someone has already mentioned the time limitations in a streetfight, and I will try not to regurgitate to much information, but as my Grampa used to say, "A long fight is a lost fight."

I am a decent boxer, good wrestler, better than average grappler, and I am 6'1" and 230 lbs at around 12-14 percent bodyfat, depending on how much sweet tea I have been drinking.

Pull me down into your guard and I start smashing my elbows into sensitive things, stack, turn the corner, put my knee on your face(bounce and shift my weight), finish passing the leg, and start stomping on your face. Elapsed time, less than 30 seconds.

The key point that I forgot to point out is that I am a Marine, with a long personal history of H2H that includes real world use, and I like to practice my game, a lot.

Now, I will go all the way back to the beginning of your second paragraph. If you can clinch, you should be able to break free from the clinch. Now, use the most high percentage Self Defense technique of all. Run away. 

As for the girlfriend watching, that is pretty juvenile. If you want to show people how tough you are, join up, and I will see you in Iraq.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 31, 2006)

Arena Bred said:
			
		

> Grappling is put forward as a means of allowing a smaller man to survive against, or even defeat, a larger opponent.



Not just grappling, that's a claim common to almost all martial arts


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## Echsos (Aug 24, 2006)

Arena Bred said:
			
		

> Grappling is put forward as a means of allowing a smaller man to survive against, or even defeat, a larger opponent. In the past that was more true than it is now. The playing field has been levelled by the proliferation of grappling in MMA and schools across the country.
> 
> Someone has already mentioned the time limitations in a streetfight, and I will try not to regurgitate to much information, but as my Grampa used to say, "A long fight is a lost fight."
> 
> ...


Great post! With you 100%


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## Ybot (Aug 26, 2006)

It seems everyone agrees that takedowns are important, and while I agree that takedowns are a wonderful skill to have, I'm going to play devils advocate and put forth an arguement in favor of "guard puller's" and "butt scooters" like myself.

First, and easiest, is in the sports setting.  It's hard to argue that you can't be successful in sports BJJ without takedowns when so many are.  A previous poster mentioned Eddie Bravo, I would also mention my instructor Cassio Werneck, and I think the best example would be Marcelo Garcia.  I like the example of Marcelo because of how active he is on the bottom trying to sweep or take the back.

Pulling guard, or halfguard can be a very effective way to avoid the strength of good wrestlers when your takedowns are not to up to par.  You take away the oppertunity of getting those takedown points, and avoid fighting a game they are more likely to win, and if they do they often end up in better position than if you just pull guard.

I must say, also, that it takes a certain amount of skill to pull guard in control of another experienced opponent.  Do things wrong and they can reach for your legs and you just gave them takedown points.  Or, pull it without control and now they pass and have cross-side.

Anyway, for the sports aspect it's a question of tactics too.  Personally I have terrible takedowns, but great sweeps.  It makes sense for me to pull guard.  Let's say I muscle my way into a poor takedown.  Now it's very likely (due to my poor takedowns) that my opponent will pull guard.  Now I have to work to pass the guard, which can be the hardest thing to do in BJJ (especially since a guy that I am able to take down probably spends a lot of time on their back).  Also, ending up in someones guard puts you at least two steps from a submission.  Pass first then submit.  On the other hand if I pull a good guard and sweep, most often I either end up in mount or cross-side, which I love, and while I'm working for my sweep from my guard, if the opertunity presents itself, I can sub him too.


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## Ybot (Aug 28, 2006)

Okay, now I'll attempt the harder argument for "guard pullers" in a street fight.

Basicly it goes like this.  We won't pull guard.  It's kinda like all these strikers who believe in a real street confrontation we grapplers wont punch or kick.  Or TMA's who believe we wouldn't utilize groin strikes or eye gouges.  Of course we will, we're just not as good at it as someone who trains it, but we're probibly as good as the average Joe on the streests.  Same with guard pullers and takedowns.  We may not be as good at them as the guys that train them all the time, but we're probibly better than who ever we're fighting.

We will clinch and hold and if we have to try to take the fight down as best as possible.  We're playing the odds.  Most likely our opponent wont know what the heck he's doing, so we can get the takedown.  Simple as that.  If by some mischance we do end up on the bottom we fight from there, we've been there before and most people don't know how to defend the sweep.

Would it be better to know how to take them down in the street fight?  Absolutely.  Do I worry about it much? No. I don't plan on getting in any street fights any time soon.

There is always a chance that we'll meet up with the guy like Arena Bred, which then sucks to be us.  But then again no matter what your skill there's always someone out there who has your number, so your just as screwed if you meet them. 

In the end our best defense is to avoid these situations in the first place.  We spend all this time worried about street application of our arts when odds are we'll never be put in a position where we will be "forced" to fight.  Ego and saving face are usually what contributes most to a fight.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 28, 2006)

I'll agree on both arguments, in sports JJ it works under the rules, and ultimately that is what counts.  There is absolutely no reason sto fight a battle you can't win rather then conceed the battle and minimize losses (pull guard rather then lossing a fight for a takedown)

On "the street" no sane person would pull guard, even in MMA it is a very rare thing.  But as you said, most sports fighters aren't really that concerned with it.


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## kingkong89 (Aug 31, 2006)

well said

a good takedown is always important in a grappaling match, but even if you get a good start in takedown never forget the tech. in submission:ultracool


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## BJJMichigan (Sep 28, 2006)

Hello all,
        I am new to the forums, but did have a takedown question. Do the "pure wrestlers" who do BJJ in a GI find that having the GI on as a disadvantage or advantage? Also, I am wondering if the Judo background people has a similar view in a "NON GI" setting. 
        The reason why I am asking this is my background isn't in wrestling or in Judo, but I have found thru personal experience (in BJJ class) that the wrestlers or Judo classmates are not really bothered by a GI or No GI at least by me anyway....lol


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## Andrew Green (Sep 28, 2006)

I do no-gi, and I find the gi a real pain when trying to toss someone.  I imagine Judo folks would find it the other way though 

But my usual method of get tight and go for underhooks, neck ties and front headlocks and such things gets rather inhibited by people grabbing my collars and sleeves


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