# Custom Dummy



## Transk53 (Jan 25, 2015)

Has anybody around here made your own dummy. If so, how did you style it. Pretty, or ugly as sin but functional. What sort of wood did you use?


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 25, 2015)

Recent post about your question over on reddit.

It s ugly but it s mine Just finished building my Mook Yan Jong WingChun


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## Transk53 (Jan 25, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Recent post about your question over on reddit.
> 
> It s ugly but it s mine Just finished building my Mook Yan Jong WingChun



But what wood I wonder.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 25, 2015)

had some one make me one once.  He made it out of steel because he worked with the product all the time.
Trouble was the arms on it where way to small in diameter and round. Darn near broke my arm a few times hitting it to hard.  
He added a slight twist as he made the pole able to turn on the base if it had enough force on the arms.


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## Transk53 (Jan 25, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> had some one make me one once.  He made it out of steel because he worked with the product all the time.
> Trouble was the arms on it where way to small in diameter and round. Darn near broke my arm a few times hitting it to hard.
> He added a slight twist as he made the pole able to turn on the base if it had enough force on the arms.



Made out of steel? You Sir are crazy  You did at least cushion the arms no?


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 25, 2015)

no I was younger and much stupider.  Back then it was a Brave it out and deal with it attitude.  

If he had made the same one out of wood (oak, hickory, etc.) I would have put myself through much less pain.
It finally became a coat rack for my office and another student made one out of Maple wood for me.


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## Transk53 (Jan 25, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> no I was younger and much stupider.  Back then it was a Brave it out and deal with it attitude.
> 
> If he had made the same one out of wood (oak, hickory, etc.) I would have put myself through much less pain.
> It finally became a coat rack for my office and another student made one out of Maple wood for me.



Well then I would give you +10 No doubt the social climate coupled with peer pressure, not too hard to comprehend. Still though, I can imagine you had a twinkle in the eye when posting. I harbour the impression that you liked it  despite everything.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 25, 2015)

One of my teachers had a great old wooden dummy that he built himself out of some pretty old, used wood.  Totally functional and effective.  Myself I just did not have the time to make my own so I bought one from here: Home  Absolutely love mine and make sure I use it at least every other day with IRT specific training methods.

Here is a picture:


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## Danny T (Jan 25, 2015)

Have 4 in my school all from Great Lion. Several of my students have purchased from Great Lion also. All excellent dummies. 
One is over 20 years old, one about 15, and the others are 8. They are used almost everyday by several practitioners and are still in excellent shape. Clark Thornton makes an excellent dummy.


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## geezer (Jan 25, 2015)

Actually a steel-body dummy could be a very practical way to go. I made one back in the mid 80s when I had access to welding and metal working tools. The body was a length of steel tubing about 9 or 10 inches in diameter and about 1/8 or 3/16 inch thick. I cut slightly oversize square holes for the arms and lined them with square steel tubing cut flush and welded. Same for the leg.

Not having access to a lathe, and this being long before you could order such things on the internet, I made my own arms out of wooden baseball bats picked up for a few bucks at a thrift store. If you cut off the skinny part of the handle, the center portion is about the right size. Just cut the fat end down to about a 2X2 square and you have a decent "tenon" or peg. If its short, you can cut off on an angle and spice it onto an extension made of good hardwood. Finally, if you want more mass you can just drop a couple of sandbags inside.

I no longer have access to tools like that, and time always seems short. So I'm looking around to _buy_ a second dummy for my class. My own, an old Koo Sang job made of teak is at my house and right now it's buried under a ton of stuff we had to move from another house. What a pain. Anyway, I've actually been looking at some of the PVC ones online. I've seen one or two that look quite serviceable.


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## Danny T (Jan 25, 2015)

The primary purpose of a dummy is to re-enforce the proper movement and "perfect" position relative to an opponent. The function is to allow this to happen by the arms, leg(s), and body acting as stops to prevent you from over-stepping or over-shifting your body and/or arms when you practice techniques and form on the dummy. This comes from the main guiding principle in Wing Chun this being "economy of motion"; doing the most in the shortest time with the least amount of energy. What the dummy is made of is relevant only to what we regard as tradition as_._

Also I feel the dummy should not be enshrined, worshipped, or restricted in use. I believe it was specifically designed for students to "play" with. There is nothing sacred or magical about a dummy. It is an excellent learning tool created to help in passing on knowledge from instructor to student.

Keep in mind that the main reason for using a dummy is to help perfect your movement into the limps and positioning. It isn’t about striking the arms hard but properly.


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## yak sao (Jan 25, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Also I feel the dummy should not be enshrined, worshipped, or restricted in use. I believe it was specifically designed for students to "play" with. There is nothing sacred or magical about a dummy. It is an excellent learning tool created to help in passing on knowledge from instructor to student.



I had some goober come to my class several years ago. He had trained in some other kung fu style.
He was offended when I referred to the mook jong as _the dummy_. He said he thought it was disrespectful. That" _the dummy was an honorable thing and should be respected."_
I responded that the term dummy means something that is made to resemble a man. It's not being disrespectful calling it what it is. The insult would be if I called you a dummy...meaning that you had about as much sense as an inanimate object....besides, it's a hunk of wood, it doesn't care what I call it.

....He never came back


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## Danny T (Jan 25, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I had some goober come to my class several years ago. He had trained in some other kung fu style.
> He was offended when I referred to the mook jong as _the dummy_. He said he thought it was disrespectful. That" _the dummy was an honorable thing and should be respected."_
> I responded that the term dummy means something that is made to resemble a man. It's not being disrespectful calling it what it is. The insult would be if I called you a dummy...meaning that you had about as much sense as an inanimate object....besides, it's a hunk of wood, it doesn't care what I call it.
> 
> ....He never came back


Have had similar.
I take care of the dummies because they are excellent equipment (and expensive) but they are but a tool. Use the tool!!


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## Danny T (Jan 25, 2015)

Wonder how many muay thai schools keep their students from using the heavy bag until they have 'earned the privilege' to use it.


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## KPM (Jan 25, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Has anybody around here made your own dummy. If so, how did you style it. Pretty, or ugly as sin but functional. What sort of wood did you use?


 I built my own dummy almost 30 years ago.  I had friend at the time who had his own woodshop in his backyard that helped me.  I was a poor college student and couldn't afford to buy one from someone else, and couldn't afford expensive hardwood.  So I made it out of pine that I could buy at the local Home Depot.  I used 2 x 6 boards that we cut at an angle lengthwise on the table saw.  Then we glued them together so that trunk was shaped as an octagon.  Then I took a draw knife and a power sander and rounded the whole trunk off by hand. We cut out octagonal shaped "plugs" for both ends of the trunk to seal it against moisture and provide structural support.  I made the arms and leg by hand from pine 4 x 4's.  That way they are "one piece" (except the leg).  I shaped them entirely with a small hand saw, a wood rasp, and sandpaper.  Making the trunk out of pine was no problem and saved a lot of money versus using a hardwood.  The trunk is plenty sturdy and heavy.  I was worried about the arms and really expected I would break one over time.  I planned to just buy a set of arms from someone else when that happened.  But it never happened.  I used that dummy for close to 20 years before I "retired" it and bought one of the "Warrior" free-standing dummies.   Now it sits in a place of respect in my basement as a family heirloom.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 26, 2015)

I built one using 2x10 framing lumber from Home Depot for the body and leg, so the real species is unknown, but its denser than the pale whitewood you see in really cheap 2x4s. The body is 6 seperate layers of wood laminated together with titebod glue. The outer layers I ripped down more narrow on a table saw so there was less material (still a LOT) to remove when I took a Harbor Freight electric planer to it. Its not perfectly round, but it is more rounded than octagonal, if that makes sense.
The arms were made from seperate 1x4 red oak pieces (also from Home Depot) laminated together, then shaped with planer, surform, then electric sander. 
This base allows it to be in my mudroom without being attached to the wall. It is hollow and filled with 100 lbs of cement, and the internal post that extends up into the dummy allows the body to move, not like a wall mounted dummy, but just enough that its not like practicing on tree that is 100% rigid.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 26, 2015)

Danny T said:


> ...all from Great Lion




I had one of these years ago. Well made, quality jong. Tolerances in the arms were a little too strict for my taste but overall a fine piece of craftsmanship


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 26, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I built one




Awesome job piedmont. Impressive!


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

KPM said:


> I built my own dummy almost 30 years ago.  I had friend at the time who had his own woodshop in his backyard that helped me.  I was a poor college student and couldn't afford to buy one from someone else, and couldn't afford expensive hardwood.  So I made it out of pine that I could buy at the local Home Depot.  I used 2 x 6 boards that we cut at an angle lengthwise on the table saw.  Then we glued them together so that trunk was shaped as an octagon.  Then I took a draw knife and a power sander and rounded the whole trunk off by hand. We cut out octagonal shaped "plugs" for both ends of the trunk to seal it against moisture and provide structural support.  I made the arms and leg by hand from pine 4 x 4's.  That way they are "one piece" (except the leg).  I shaped them entirely with a small hand saw, a wood rasp, and sandpaper.  Making the trunk out of pine was no problem and saved a lot of money versus using a hardwood.  The trunk is plenty sturdy and heavy.  I was worried about the arms and really expected I would break one over time.  I planned to just buy a set of arms from someone else when that happened.  But it never happened.  I used that dummy for close to 20 years before I "retired" it and bought one of the "Warrior" free-standing dummies.   Now it sits in a place of respect in my basement as a family heirloom.



Thanks Keith. I have been thinking about pine myself. The one thing I am wondering is if I would necessarily need the leg. Well, at least this current juncture.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I built one using 2x10 framing lumber from Home Depot for the body and leg, so the real species is unknown, but its denser than the pale whitewood you see in really cheap 2x4s. The body is 6 seperate layers of wood laminated together with titebod glue. The outer layers I ripped down more narrow on a table saw so there was less material (still a LOT) to remove when I took a Harbor Freight electric planer to it. Its not perfectly round, but it is more rounded than octagonal, if that makes sense.
> The arms were made from seperate 1x4 red oak pieces (also from Home Depot) laminated together, then shaped with planer, surform, then electric sander.
> This base allows it to be in my mudroom without being attached to the wall. It is hollow and filled with 100 lbs of cement, and the internal post that extends up into the dummy allows the body to move, not like a wall mounted dummy, but just enough that its not like practicing on tree that is 100% rigid.
> View attachment 19164



Very very nice fella  Looks very pretty and well made. Testament to you're skills which must wood working there? What process of lamination did you use. Glue some material on top? Heavy varnish?


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 26, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Very very nice fella  Looks very pretty and well made. Testament to you're skills which must wood working there? What process of lamination did you use. Glue some material on top? Heavy varnish?



Thanks. I have a bit of experience otherwise I would not have taken this on in the first place; it was an adventure to say the least, as I never glue up or shape anything this big in my normal woodworking.

After a lot of sanding, up to about 320 grit with a palm sander, it got a Minwax Gunstock stain, followed by some spraycan lacquer, then the gloss knocked down with some steel wool for a more stain look. I like lacquer and use it on other stuff so I always have it around, but it is some nasty stuff for your lungs; a respirator is def needed when applying it. You could use a wipe of polyurethane just the same.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 26, 2015)

Oops, sorry. I'm having trouble editing posts. Forgot to mention the body was glued up with Titebond II glue. Due to its size, I couldnt clamp like normal. I glued up the body in two halves, 3 layers each, ;aid on side with heavy stones to apply pressure while glue cured. The channels for the arms (angled for the upper arms) were cut by hacksaw and circular saw, then the two halves glues together, heavy stones again instead of clamps.

The leg and arms I was able to clamp very tight while gluing up.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> Thanks. I have a bit of experience otherwise I would not have taken this on in the first place; it was an adventure to say the least, as I never glue up or shape anything this big in my normal woodworking.
> 
> After a lot of sanding, up to about 320 grit with a palm sander, it got a Minwax Gunstock stain, followed by some spraycan lacquer, then the gloss knocked down with some steel wool for a more stain look. I like lacquer and use it on other stuff so I always have it around, but it is some nasty stuff for your lungs; a respirator is def needed when applying it. You could use a wipe of polyurethane just the same.



Oh of course I forgot about lacquer. Yeah I with the horrid stuff many moons ago. A bit of joinery with doors and windows. I will keep the above in mind. Thanks for the post


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## KPM (Jan 26, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Thanks Keith. I have been thinking about pine myself. The one thing I am wondering is if I would necessarily need the leg. Well, at least this current juncture.


 No.  I don't think you necessarily need the leg.  And it is the hardest part to make yourself!


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

KPM said:


> No.  I don't think you necessarily need the leg.  And it is the hardest part to make yourself!



Yeah. May well have to cater for a custom or commercial part for that. Be in March before I can consider it, but thought the local college may let me procure a lave perhaps. Either that or I advertise for some to round out the main body.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 27, 2015)

I do like having the leg. Even though my student level involves little to no dummy training, we do practice the plum blossom footwork and it makes so much more sense to do this on the dummy, moving in and around the leg than it does to do it on marks on the ground, plus you can combine strikes. Just one example.


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I do like having the leg. Even though my student level involves little to no dummy training, we do practice the plum blossom footwork and it makes so much more sense to do this on the dummy, moving in and around the leg than it does to do it on marks on the ground, plus you can combine strikes. Just one example.



Okay interesting reply  I have only really very briefly delved into the forms, don't want to confuse myself if I can help it. Still though, what you posted makes a lot of sense to me regardless. Going to look a little deeper into this


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## Pat M (Jan 30, 2015)

I have made many dummies over the years.




I recently restored this dummy for my Wing Chun sister. The whole construction is hardwood. It had been in the weather for years.

before:




This is the first dummy i made for my wife in 2002:






With the restored one next to it. Keeping each other company.

I just use pine logs for the trunk as they are easy to get and work. Hard wood for everything else. Had always got legs made however found an amazing piece of fallen timber for my wife's dummy in the last photo.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 30, 2015)

Pat M said:


> I have made many dummies over the years.
> View attachment 19175
> I recently restored this dummy for my Wing Chun sister. The whole construction is hardwood. It had been in the weather for years.
> 
> ...


These are good looking dummies! For solid logs, I am surprised to not see cracks from drying out and if from Pine like you say, they look like they certainly took stain beautifully. Most pine is splotchy when stained, and often not attractive.


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## Transk53 (Jan 30, 2015)

Pat M said:


> I have made many dummies over the years.
> View attachment 19175
> I recently restored this dummy for my Wing Chun sister. The whole construction is hardwood. It had been in the weather for years.
> 
> ...



Yeah nice


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## KPM (Jan 30, 2015)

Nice work Pat!  One question....what are those two things hanging from the slats of your wife's dummy?


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## Pat M (Jan 31, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> These are good looking dummies! For solid logs, I am surprised to not see cracks from drying out and if from Pine like you say, they look like they certainly took stain beautifully. Most pine is splotchy when stained, and often not attractive.



Yep always use stain as pine is such a light colour.  I think there was five coats of varnish used when I restored Antonella's dummy. You can't use enough varnish.


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## Pat M (Jan 31, 2015)

KPM said:


> Nice work Pat!  One question....what are those two things hanging from the slats of your wife's dummy?



Good pick up, as we have in the last six months changed from loosely an Ip Chun lineage club to a TWC "William Cheung" lineage school we have been learning stacks of applications,  something that I have not done since Mantis Kung Fu. Those things hanging from the rails are arm extentions so when we don't have time to train together you can whack the extentions on the dummy for application training.





It has helped a lot making the transition back to repetition application training but now our brains have adjusted don't use them much anymore. Plus to be honest once you start complex traps of course only a "live" training partner will do. It does though complement what you can use the dummy for as the extentions allow techniques bellow the elbow.


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## Danny T (Jan 31, 2015)

Always thought of the dummy arms as an 'either / or' tool. 
Either the right arm, the left arm, both or a single arm. That the arm was an upper arm and or a forearm. Upper arm shoulder to elbow and/or the forearm elbow to wrist.


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## Transk53 (Jan 31, 2015)

You guys know of a very good book on this. Or maybe a good web source for visual aids like a sequence of pictures. Greatest respect for all you and the knowledge you posses. Of course though I am pretty clueless. Some help appreciated so I can follow my threads answers with a bit more clarity


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## Pat M (Jan 31, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Always thought of the dummy arms as an 'either / or' tool.
> Either the right arm, the left arm, both or a single arm. That the arm was an upper arm and or a forearm. Upper arm shoulder to elbow and/or the forearm elbow to wrist.



Hey Danny, thanks for your most intelligent comment, I agree whole heartedly as I was under no misconception that a wing chun wooden dummy was based on a one legged man with 3 stumpy arms. 

However if you have no training partner and you wish to work on applications that require the full length of the arm these little guys fit the bill.


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## Danny T (Jan 31, 2015)

Pat M said:


> Hey Danny, thanks for your most intelligent comment, I agree whole heartedly as I was under no misconception that a wing chun wooden dummy was based on a one legged man with 3 stumpy arms.
> 
> However if you have no training partner and you wish to work on applications that require the full length of the arm these little guys fit the bill.


Cool.


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 2, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Has anybody around here made your own dummy. If so, how did you style it. Pretty, or ugly as sin but functional. What sort of wood did you use?



I made a dummy out of a fallen telephone pole. It did not work out well,but I was young and stupid.


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## Danny T (Feb 2, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> I made a dummy out of a fallen telephone pole. It did not work out well,but I was young and stupid.


The creosote must have been terrible. 
"...young and stupid."  - Just to make you feel better, in spite of no longer been young I still do a stupid thing or two from time to time.


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## Transk53 (Feb 2, 2015)

To make you both feel better, when I screw up, tends to be of galactic proportions  A telephone pole sounds like it would be quite sturdy. I guess once stripped back and the accoutrements removed. Someone has also suggested the railway sleeper as from above. In the UK though, Costain tend to create those out of concrete these days and I am no Tong Po!


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## KPM (Feb 2, 2015)

If you have connections with people that do construction work you might be able to get a 5 foot length of PVC pipe that is close to the right circumference for a dummy trunk.  I looked into once and it seemed like all I could find was either too narrow or too wide.  But you could with too wide and have a dummy that looks a little like the ones used in Vietnamese Wing Chun!  ;-)


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## Transk53 (Feb 3, 2015)

KPM said:


> If you have connections with people that do construction work you might be able to get a 5 foot length of PVC pipe that is close to the right circumference for a dummy trunk.  I looked into once and it seemed like all I could find was either too narrow or too wide.  But you could with too wide and have a dummy that looks a little like the ones used in Vietnamese Wing Chun!  ;-)



More than likely be able to get that at a Travis Perkins building merchant near me. That is a good idea actually. Could put a drain in it (if physically viable with the arms) and fill with water. When needing to move it, just drain it. Mmm, going to have a look more into that.


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2015)

Most PVC pipe of that diameter will have pretty thick walls and so have some decent mass to it.  Then if you put some kind of padding on it that will weight it down some more.  I think you'd fine it will work just fine like that.  If you wanted some added weight I don't think filling with water would work.  You would need to cap off the bottom and then fill the lower part with sand up to the level of the holes for the lower supports.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> More than likely be able to get that at a Travis Perkins building merchant near me. That is a good idea actually. Could put a drain in it (if physically viable with the arms) and fill with water. When needing to move it, just drain it. Mmm, going to have a look more into that.



What is going to hold the water in?
Have to plug or cap the bottom and when getting to the area of the bottom lat or leg hole the water will leak or slosh out when using the dummy. The body needs to be able to shift or rock on the slates and the arms need to be able to move within the holes to give the body and arms movement. The dummy is not designed to be rigid but to simulate the movement in an opponent's arms and body when applying the force properly into the dummy.


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## Transk53 (Feb 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> What is going to hold the water in?
> Have to plug or cap the bottom and when getting to the area of the bottom lat or leg hole the water will leak or slosh out when using the dummy. The body needs to be able to shift or rock on the slates and the arms need to be able to move within the holes to give the body and arms movement. The dummy is not designed to be rigid but to simulate the movement in an opponent's arms and body when applying the force properly into the dummy.



Well, without having a piece of piping to hand, I can only speculate. I have formed a few thoughts on it, as I was aware the arms have movement doh. Hence physically viable


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## Pat M (Feb 7, 2015)

You could make one from PVC finding materials would the trick.

Check this out: PVC Wing Chun Dummy - Everything Wing Chun

My advice just give it a go making a wooden one.


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## Transk53 (Feb 7, 2015)

Pat M said:


> You could make one from PVC finding materials would the trick.
> 
> Check this out: PVC Wing Chun Dummy - Everything Wing Chun
> 
> My advice just give it a go making a wooden one.



Thanks. Not a bad price considering the exchange rate and shipping costs. Not sure about the import tax though at this point. My issue though is lack of a workshop. If I had that I would use a lathe myself, but would have to use a local joiner, if the main body needed extensive work. 

One good thing is that when I move next month, the house owner (friend) is a WC practitioner, so we have been discussing the possibility of going halves on the cost. As such a ready made one may well be the best course of action for now. Plus also theoretical reverse engineering of sorts by seeing how the dummy has been built. Thanks for the advice though, been very helpful!


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