# Reality of Moves



## Glycerine0160 (Jan 27, 2009)

I don't really ever get the opportunity to spar in my academy so I have to go in theory here or based of your experiences.


I was on the kempo board just watching a clip  of sparring and it involved many fast, consecutive hooks and some jabs.  For entries they would sometimes throw inside/outside hook kicks. (they were disallowed taken downs)


So it got me thinking....  (mind any of my spelling)

a move like the lop sao, think it would be really that easy to pull of with a flail of fast punches? I suppose you would probably parry a few or whatever have it, and you could get the block off and pull them with at least one of those flying punches. Regardless, one lop sao punch to the face is well worth 2-3 of these poorly guided jabs/hooks. 


since I'm also on a tangent right now.

When you guys sparr, do you find yourself utilizing a whole **** load of trapping? I only did light sparring once in my academy and I remember using a lot of trapping but I was only like 6 months in and had no experience with sparring. (I've wrestled some in high school and been into a few fights, so I wasn't new to the atmosphere) but my reflexes were way slow and ideas came way too late. I'm a lot more confident now in utilizing more moves.


Lastly, I have this buddy who is pretty agressive and at least 30-40 lbs on me. He always wants to sparr and he only has wrestling experience. I'm not overly worried cause he has a wrestling mat in his basement and a bunch of gear, (although I would be bring my sparring gloves, no way im using boxing gloves. I mean I could, but I want to try more of my techniques and boxing gloves would inhibit that.)

think I should take up his offer?

He also wants to learn some jkd so that wouldn't be bad. Plus I could have someone to spend time with sensitivity drills.


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## Drac (Jan 27, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Lastly, I have this buddy who is pretty agressive and at least 30-40 lbs on me. He always wants to sparr and he only has wrestling experience. I'm not overly worried cause he has a wrestling mat in his basement and a bunch of gear, (although I would be bring my sparring gloves, no way im using boxing gloves. I mean I could, but I want to try more of my techniques and boxing gloves would inhibit that.)
> 
> think I should take up his offer?
> 
> He also wants to learn some jkd so that wouldn't be bad. Plus I could have someone to spend time with sensitivity drills.


 
As long as he knows about tapping out, and will stop when you do (or if you do) I say go for it..


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## Andrew Green (Jan 27, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> I don't really ever get the opportunity to spar in my academy so I have to go in theory here or based of your experiences.



That seems odd for a JKD school...

[/quote]
a move like the lop sao, think it would be really that easy to pull of with a flail of fast punches? I suppose you would probably parry a few or whatever have it, and you could get the block off and pull them with at least one of those flying punches. Regardless, one lop sao punch to the face is well worth 2-3 of these poorly guided jabs/hooks. 
[/quote]


Very hard to do when someone is throwing boxing like combinations.  You will leave yourself open to being set up.



> When you guys sparr, do you find yourself utilizing a whole **** load of trapping? I only did light sparring once in my academy and I remember using a lot of trapping but I was only like 6 months in and had no experience with sparring. (I've wrestled some in high school and been into a few fights, so I wasn't new to the atmosphere) but my reflexes were way slow and ideas came way too late. I'm a lot more confident now in utilizing more moves.



None, well very little.  

I find the only time it works is when both people are trying to do it, or the other person is more "traditionally" trained in the way they attack and block.



> Lastly, I have this buddy who is pretty agressive and at least 30-40 lbs on me. He always wants to sparr and he only has wrestling experience. I'm not overly worried cause he has a wrestling mat in his basement and a bunch of gear, (although I would be bring my sparring gloves, no way im using boxing gloves. I mean I could, but I want to try more of my techniques and boxing gloves would inhibit that.)



That's up to you, but safety first and don't go flying through the wall if you do.

Boxing gloves allow for harder contact and while limiting, are not that limiting.  Consider it compensation for the lack of fine control you would get if you where doing it for real do to the huge adrenaline spike 

But, you, and he would be far better off getting him into a class with you and sparring there, with someone that knows what they are doing and can help you both improve and knows what is safe and what isn't.  Plus there is insurance, just in case.


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## Dragon Soul (Jan 28, 2009)

the lop sao may seem a bit distasteful, but along with pak sao and tan sao, those are pretty much the only setups for simple traps. I personally find that a pak sao plus a speedy backfist gets the job done. If a want extra whip, I would pak sao and jerk him with a lop sao (very quickly of course) and snap him with a backfist. But with gloves on, I can see where that is an issue. 

Trapping seems to be very complicated, I never really practiced any chi sao or sensitivity drills, I kinda just picked up the basics by watching. I just feel it out. If a guy is tossing tight, controlled, boxing combinations, and he seems to know what he's doing, it makes trapping that much harder. You have to force him to attempt a parry or defend a blow (or even make him overextend himself), then you go for the good ol' Hand Immobilization Attack!


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## Glycerine0160 (Jan 28, 2009)

Dragon Soul said:


> the lop sao may seem a bit distasteful, but along with pak sao and tan sao, those are pretty much the only setups for simple traps. I personally find that a pak sao plus a speedy backfist gets the job done. If a want extra whip, I would pak sao and jerk him with a lop sao (very quickly of course) and snap him with a backfist. But with gloves on, I can see where that is an issue.
> 
> Trapping seems to be very complicated, I never really practiced any chi sao or sensitivity drills, I kinda just picked up the basics by watching. I just feel it out. If a guy is tossing tight, controlled, boxing combinations, and he seems to know what he's doing, it makes trapping that much harder. You have to force him to attempt a parry or defend a blow (or even make him overextend himself), then you go for the good ol' Hand Immobilization Attack!




Good points, I think that would mean if he goes for boxing I want to be more aggressive than him. So if he goes for that weak boxing jab, I go in for my parry/hand immobilize with my straight blast. That is a good point, trapping only works if one guy will play it along  with you while he is attacking, or if you get him on the defense. But the moment I establish myself on the offense, if he even throws up any hands to block, he opens himself up for pak or lop sao.             

Tan sao is when you bend your wrist out for a block almost making an L with your hand, correct? You can do a tan sao block straight into a palm heel to the face? That seems like that could be applicable in a boxing scenario.

I suppose though, the Jun Fuan JKD material would be the most useful. Duck and thrust hit out, parry hit. 

We have also been using this one move a lot in our silat, kali areas.
Whatever move you have to do to get inside whether its immobolize the hand in its fixed position or can't remember the name of the other one (you almost catch the punch in your hand momentarily and slide your wrist with it away from you, to the outside.  REGARDLESS  you then throw your elbow into his shoulder which opens up many other possiblities. If he hits, you can lop sao it, snake it ecetera. 


Overall though, he's a wrestler. His punches will all be in sequence to a take down. I would not mind trying out some of my silat against him though if we get into grappling range.


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## joeygil (Jan 28, 2009)

Trapping feels a little unnatural with boxing gloves on.  I find when light sparring with finger gloves, the little amount of trapping I do comes out more.


I do find myself using jao sau with that jut sau + hit a lot with boxing gloves.  I think it works well due to the shape of the gloves.


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## Dragon Soul (Jan 28, 2009)

joeygil said:


> Trapping feels a little unnatural with boxing gloves on.  I find when light sparring with finger gloves, the little amount of trapping I do comes out more.
> 
> 
> I do find myself using jao sau with that jut sau + hit a lot with boxing gloves.  I think it works well due to the shape of the gloves.



I definitely agree that trapping with boxing gloves feels not quite right. I used to spar with boxing gloves in college and I only used my pak sao or intercepting fist.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jan 30, 2009)

So we did some multiple opponents stuff. He wanted us to focus on staying on the outside and learning to use opponents as shields for the other attackers. I'm very quick which i like, and I just use the outside block (or windmill block) whatever terminology you use. Very useful cause you have the ability to go into a lop sao and hit or lop sao and use your other hand to toss them to your liking. I did lose my balance at one point, but I'm pretty agile so I got up but it was nerve racking cause I tried to take it seriously. I suppose in a real life situation, I am very comfortable with the haria mau (i probably spelt it wrong) silat so I would feel confident finding my way on the ground until I got the opportunity to rise. (I cant' wait to get the inosanto madjaphit silat video coming in the mail soon) 

He said next time he wants to throw a hood over our heads, spin us a few times, and have opponents waiting and we go. My academy has never offered this just cause my teacher isn't really big on rules and if we have new guys come in, he's less likely to teach more difficult techniques.


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## simplicity (Jan 30, 2009)

_Tan sao is when you bend your wrist out for a block almost making an L with your hand, correct?_


No, that is a good way to get your wrist broken... Make sure you keep your wrist straight...


Anyone here, is welcome to come to my seminar on Jeet Kune Do/JKD Grappling this April 25 & 26, 2009.... To learn more about JKD & it's principles... If you have a interest in coming e-mail me...   I*_*I


Keep "IT" Real,
Sifu John McNabney


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## Robert Lee (Jan 30, 2009)

What you see as others fight Or spar Is what they do. Now when you are the one in front of the same person . Be it fight or spar. You will do only what you do. A person throws a lead you respond. Thats simple.  never parry if you can hit never trap if you can hit parry to hit trap to hit.  Slip and hit move and hit. I would say ask your instructor to let you do some contact training. So you can see what you do not think of what you can do by watching.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 30, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> I don't really ever get the opportunity to spar in my academy so I have to go in theory here or based of your experiences.
> 
> 
> I was on the kempo board just watching a clip of sparring and it involved many fast, consecutive hooks and some jabs. For entries they would sometimes throw inside/outside hook kicks. (they were disallowed taken downs)
> ...


The most powerfull thing you can do is almost never the fastest thing you can do.
Sean


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## Glycerine0160 (Jan 31, 2009)

Update:

So we did a little bit of light sparring today which was good. Ironically, I found myself always on the offense. It was nothing too competitive but I was trying really hard to land hits. (We weren't hitting hard though) I found my speed and comfort to allow me designate myself on the offense. But I still had trouble staying in. I think I might try crashing in more but not making it a habit, that way it will be hard to see. I was able to freely get in and out though. I was more comfortable with using low punches. I tried to make use of the consecutive straight blasts but I did not have a lot of luck. I want to blame this on my inability to emphasize stepping in more to gain the zone.

The common pattern I notice between all three opponents was when I went in with a kick, or a punch, I was anticipating a punch or a kick back but got neither. I was really hoping to intercept. They chose to retreat to their right and I was coming in from their left. We did not have a lot of room to make circular movements because so many people were there. All the people I was up against were around my same level of fighting, although they were all much bigger. I'm only 142lbs 5"9 so it's not that difficult to be bigger. 

I have been putting more time to focusing in on my jkd movements and speed of punches and kicks. I want to put a full blown effort into this though. Speed is the best offensive weapon. I also have learned that when you make your move to go in (on the offense) you run a high risk of getting hit by some sort of a punch even though your attack deliverance will be much more effective than his-it just seems unavoidable.


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## Dragon Soul (Jan 31, 2009)

I agree 100 percent. Speed is what you need if one is trying to go on the offense. Timing, accuracy, and precision coupled with physical and mental speed makes you a very dangerous person. On the offense, if you can master distancing and timing, then you can severely reduce this risk of being hit during your attack. At least that works for me.

Mental speed, physical speed, and adapting to the opponent can be the difference between two fighters of similar skill.


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## Glycerine0160 (Feb 6, 2009)

Update:

So we did another day of light sparring, with a couple minute rounds and switched with 5 opponents. The first kid I sparred with he was hitting harder than most, which was okay, I just wasn't ready to step it up. We also did some foam stick fighting  single/double. My first single stick match I was tensing up and hitting way to hard, (although I did manage 2 impact disarms) but I was out of gas by the end, like completely. The second time with double sticks I knew i had to loosen up and pace myself, I did much better. 

then we went to empty hand sparring. As I mentioned, the first kid he was going more for heavier sparring which I didn't mind, just wasn't ready. His combinations weren't very good. He was just throwing 2 hit combos, but I was tensing. I also wasn't thinking. I wasn't 'using a lot of my jkd stuff. I was really concerned with kicking and blocking kicks for some reason. My next matches, I slowly got slower and slower literally until the end, this really heavy guy had more mobility than me. It was sad. Actually, this one kid who used to box told me by the end, I was so tense that I telegraphed everything. Although, I tried a move off the (ping choi?) series. I tried to bate him in for a low block, then came rolling over with a back fist.


So I'm a big self-reflection sort of person. So here is what I learned.

1.) I need to stay loose. STOP worrying about power. (I think I do this becuase of my small stature, i feel like I have to compete with power)

2.) IF I stay loose, I then can think better. I can use my jkd stuff, I can look for openings, I can think about distance. I can stop throwing wasteful punches. Even Bruce said in fighting methods, if you keep missing, you are going to gas yourself early. 

3.) I set up a string in my room. I am going to start practicing my bobbing and weaving. One kid in my jkd used to box a little, he was telling me how to make a light sand bag that I can hang up to practice my slipping.

4.) My strong points are I am very quick with closing the gaps though. My issue is when I get in there, I sort of loose control of the situation. I think that is mostly in part to me exhuasting myself so early and being too tense. I also need to use all my tools like stepping to the side (when I'm inside) for a single angular attack. I did that once the last time we sparred, and it worked very nicely. 


My question is....

We only had gloves and mouth pieces, this would make sense then that most of us would just stick with original jkd material correct? I'm not sure what dictates it, but the sparring we do isn't about grappling. We sort of stay just in kicking and punching range. Perhaps that is why I feel limited to original jkd stuff?    Any thoughts?
(I'm also thinking of getting the inosanto kali video or that other baesalik guy pantatuken video.)


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## JohnMarkPainter (Feb 7, 2009)

Try making a 'rule' for your next sparring session....

If you don't land an overwhelming HIT (which is the 1st priority) Fight your way into a Clinch, Takedown attempt OR Hit and then break out to Long Range.  Then break and start again.

Fighting in "rounds" and staying in Punching and Kicking Range is KICKBOXING.
I Personally enjoy Kickboxing...nothing against it.
But if you want to learn how to fight then you want to move past this habit.

jmp


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## Smoke (Jun 21, 2009)

I think trapping works, but compound trapping in the traditional sense doesn't work for _me_, when engaged with skilled opponents.  

I also think that trapping as a concept works in a great variety of ways and sometimes when our thinking is stuck in a box, we only see it as Wing Chun, etc.  But you know, when I grab someone's hand, it's not just a "lop sao".  It's just grabbing the hand.  Does that make any sense?  Do you see what I'm trying to say?

Also, underhooks and overhooks from wrestling serve as viable traps as does the hand-fighting seen in Greco-Roman wrestling.  Again, thinking outside of the box shows us a lot of potential when we consider trapping in all its forms.

Again the only thing that matters is, can we pull it off and make it work.  I've trained long enough to see that almost anything can work in it's proper time and place.  It depends on the individual to make it happen.


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