# Hitting women



## Wey (Aug 14, 2009)

For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop? 

I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.

Your thoughts?


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## Xinglu (Aug 14, 2009)

Personally, I don't think it is appropriate to hit anyone because of verbal abuse.

And if I'm being attacked physically, I will defend myself.  However, in some cases qinna would be more appropriate then striking.  I would attempt this method first and resort to striking last and only if absolutely appropriate.


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## Flea (Aug 14, 2009)

The fact that you think there are _any_ shades of gray in relationship violence makes my skin crawl.

Them's my thoughts.


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## Big Don (Aug 14, 2009)

Is defending yourself only permissible if you are smaller/weaker than your attacker? HELL NO. That said, don't go overboard.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 14, 2009)

Flea said:


> The fact that you think there are _any_ shades of gray in relationship violence makes my skin crawl.
> 
> Them's my thoughts.



And may I add, mine as well.  Ugh.


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## CoryKS (Aug 14, 2009)

IMO:

It is acceptable to hit women while sparring, provided that you maintain an equitable and agreed-upon level of force.  And lord knows, that was hard to do at first.

It is acceptable to hit _anyone_ who initiates physical violence against you, but be aware that the authorities might not agree. I have no respect for anyone who lashes out physically and then says you should not respond "because you are stronger". 

Other than that, no.


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## Xinglu (Aug 14, 2009)

Flea and Bill - where does he say this has anything to do with domestic violence?  As far as I can tell he is asking about any female attacker.  If you people think that only men commit robbery or lose their temper and throw a punch then you are sorely mistaken.


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## Marginal (Aug 14, 2009)

Wey said:


> For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?
> 
> I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.


She'd have to be trying to kill me. 

Yelling's just noise. Punching her for that and a few slaps is way off the scale.


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## Carol (Aug 14, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Flea and Bill - where does he say this has anything to do with domestic violence?  As far as I can tell he is asking about any female attacker.  If you people think that only men commit robbery or lose their temper and throw a punch then you are sorely mistaken.



Because the question was set up with the situation of:



> After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?



This does not read to me like someone concerned about some female street punk on the subway.  This reads like a domestic.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 14, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Flea and Bill - where does he say this has anything to do with domestic violence?



Basic reading skills.



> As far as I can tell he is asking about any female attacker.



Read it again.



> If you people think that only men commit robbery or lose their temper and throw a punch then you are sorely mistaken.



I don't see anyone here saying that.  Where did you read us saying that?

From the tone and tenor of the OP's post, it was clear to me (and I suspect clear to Flea) what the point was.  I worked in LE for a couple years, and I've dealt with my share of domestics, both as the LE and as the person LE got to deal with.  I have even very briefly cohabitated with a woman who liked to hit and was relatively good at it.

I don't hit women in general.  As LE, sure, I've had to.  At the dojo, yes again.  It happens.  That really wasn't the question the OP was asking IMHO.

In general, I apply the same self-defense methods to an attacker who is female as I would for an attacker who is male.  If I can remove myself from the situation without being hurt, I will do so.  End of problem.  If I have no other choice, I will defend myself with violence.  Last resort.  

Verbal abuse is never - *never* - enough to justify a violent response.  Man or woman.  Period.


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## CoryKS (Aug 14, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Because the question was set up with the situation of:
> 
> 
> 
> This does not read to me like someone concerned about some female street punk on the subway. This reads like a domestic.


 
Yeah, good point.  In the case of a domestic, you'd best just walk away or you're going to jail.  And if the relation gets to the point where it's physical, man, walk away for _good_.


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## K-man (Aug 14, 2009)

Closest I came was once in retail where I had detained a female for shoplifting and was waiting for police to arrive.  I was holding her arm and she was calling me for everything.  Then she lashed out and kicked my leg. A swift leg sweep meant she spent the remaining waiting time on the ground.  She had five or six male friends with her who were also abusive and in my face. She had gone down that fast the guys thought I had hit her.  Not one of them actually raised a hand against me. In a domestic or social scene, no way Jose.  We should all be able to walk away from all abusive and most potential physical situations.  Restraint is one thing, hitting is too much over the top.


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## Xinglu (Aug 14, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Basic reading skills.


Cute.  Unwarranted, but cute.

I can see how a person could assume such a thing, but there is not enough information presented to make a sound assertion.  That's called basic reasoning or logic skills.  So that leaves us with an assumption and then a character judgement.  Whatever, I'm just saying that it might have been a bit hasty without the due diligence of further inquiry.  So until he further elaborates, I take it at face value - where is the line for self defense (and I omitted the gender issue all together in my answer because I feel it is irrelevant.)



Bill Mattocks said:


> In general, I apply the same self-defense methods to an attacker who is female as I would for an attacker who is male.  If I can remove myself from the situation without being hurt, I will do so.  End of problem.  If I have no other choice, I will defend myself with violence.  Last resort.
> 
> Verbal abuse is never - *never* - enough to justify a violent response.  Man or woman.  Period.



This is essentially the spirit of my first post.  Furthermore, and I'm sure you'll agree, it should never be allowed to get past the verbal stage.  Very rarely is there a situation that cannot be deescalated either through words or the action of leaving.

I think that this implies succinctly that domestic abuse is unacceptable without resorting to ad hominem arguments and comments.  What do you think?


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm going to have to say that most people assume that by "hitting a woman", you are holding her against a wall and beating her repeatedly  to within an inch of her life. Of course, when you say "hitting a man" people think a punch landing in the face or something, and it's not nearly as taboo as hitting a woman.

In a situation where a woman is attacking you, it is possible to hit her without beating her down, mediums ARE available. In these situations, if the woman is physically weaker and less skilled than you, a restraint might be more warranted than a strike. I myself have been in a situation like that with a man, where I was thrown a punch, landed on my eye, it was clearly not up to snuff, so I got him in a lock and held him down until the teacher came and shuffled him to the principal's office.

If the woman is stronger than you, then by all means do what you have to do to get out of the situation, but don't escalate it anymore than she needs to.

By the way, to address the off-topic situation, I got the feeling that he was talking about a rowdy female attacker spouting obscenities at you while walking down the street, before I started thinking of domestic violence. My mind went to it, sure, but it was after I thought of a street attack. Sounds like a very good example of our respective psyche's to see what all our minds jumped to first.


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## shesulsa (Aug 15, 2009)

I can't see that there is really any good way to read OR answer the question because the possibilities are so broad ... yet the OP seems to paint a picture of an altercation already in progress.  

I think gender really shouldn't matter, eh?  How do you think the question would be addressed if this were posted in the Women in the Martial Arts section thusly:



> After he's verbally abused you? After he's hit you once, twice, more? After he keeps doing both mentioned before after you told him to stop?



Words are words and really shouldn't be reinforced with any sort of physical violence.  Once the physical begins, it must end ... quickly and effectively.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 15, 2009)

Wey said:


> For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?
> 
> I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.
> 
> Your thoughts?



No.

EDIT: assuming this is not domestic, ... that would depend. If she was out to kill me, I'd defend myself. A slap in the face or verbal abuse does not warrant hitting or hurting.

Also, to place this in context: how much could an average woman without MA experience hurt you? Not much. So self defense is not really an issue. That would be like claiming self defense for uppercutting a 10 year old after he kicked you in the shin.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 15, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Words are words and really shouldn't be reinforced with any sort of physical violence.  Once the physical begins, it must end ... quickly and effectively.



EDIT: assuming we are talking domestic violence:

Um...

You can walk away. If my wife would be hitting me, I would simply walk away, or just hold her until she calms down. Under no circumstances whatsoever would I hurt her by hitting her, throwing her, or using locks or whatever. There is no excuse for relationship vilence. At all. Ever.

Stay calm. De-escalate. and if that fails, walk out (of the relationship if necessary) or just hold her.


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## Big Don (Aug 15, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Also, to place this in context: how much could an average woman without MA experience hurt you? Not much.


A kick to the groin followed by a kick to the face, throat, knee...
Pretty damn bad.


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## Carol (Aug 15, 2009)

And eyes...


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## Big Don (Aug 15, 2009)

How much MA training did Lorena Bobbitt have?


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## Cette Hamster La (Aug 15, 2009)

For verbal altercations I stick to a strict de escalation and if that doesn't work at very least never throwing the first blow.  

  For the rest I'm not a believer in chivalry but that's just because I use a unisex method of determining who needs help.  You open the door or help out whoever actually needs it and likewise you don't hurt someone clearly less capable than you if you can just walk away or restrain.  This goes for a man or a woman.  Likewise anyone who I feel has the ability and intent to do serious bodily harm gets the same levels of response.

  I'll admit I know very few women that are going to require that unless armed but just dismissing it as a concept out of hand seems to be setting yourself up for trouble.


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## K-man (Aug 15, 2009)

Big Don said:


> How much MA training did Lorena Bobbitt have?



Probably very little, but she sure knew how to sharpen scissors!!


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## Chris Parker (Aug 15, 2009)

Hi,

Similar to Xinglu, I didn't actually read any domestic violence aspect in the original post, but saw a variety of situations that could have been discussed. So, to that end, let's look at some of those...

To begin with, we'll look at the domestic situation. In the OP, we were presented with a few timing options: When being yelled at (verbally abused), when being struck (physically abused), and when both or either continue after requests/insistance to stop (fair warning). For a domestic situation, it can be reasonably assumed that the two people in question are in a relationship, and have been for a period of time. In this situation, there is an implied level of understanding between the two as to what the other would/could do (or not). This is important, because a major reason domestic violence occurs (whether male to female, male to male, female to male, female to female, older to younger, younger to older, or any other variation) is that the aggressor knows that they can do what they do without the other fighting back. This could be due to physical reasons (if the victim is smaller, weaker etc), but most often due to mental/emotional reasons. In regard to the majority of situations (male to female), there are a number of mental factors, which I would prefer to leave to others to deal with, but with the less-common female to male abuse, a major factor is the social conditioning telling the men to never hit a woman.

So there are reasons the abusive relationship has occured. And in that regard, we would be looking at a situation where the abuser is female, and the victim is male. And while I agree that all domestic violence situations are absolutely deplorable, and are the lowest form of cowardice (basically abusing someone you know won't fight back), here we are not talking about a male to female situation. We are talking about one where a male is being abused by a woman. Surely those of you saying that domestic violence has no justification would have no problem if a woman was the victim, and she managed to fight back?

But to the timings presented. When the abuse is purely verbal, in a domstic situation, physical violence has no place. The furthest you should have the option of going is a restraining hold of some type, and attempt to calm them down. Should they start hitting you, then the first option should be restraining again. However, if the abuse is to the point of causing damage, and there is no way of restraining or leaving the situation, you have two options. One is to take it and hope for the best (usually due to social conditioning), the other is to respond, and that may mean hitting. The final timing we have is if you have asked them to stop, and they haven't. This, to me, is the same as above. Verbal abuse, restraint at most, physical, as the situation warrants.

But that is taking a narrow view of the original posted situation. Let's say it's the same wording as the OP, but you're out at a bar or club. And the girl is someone you've never seen before. With that in mind, I'll let you re-read the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Wey* 

 
_For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop? _

_I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me._

_Your thoughts?_


Girlfriends/female friends etc are often used to set-up attacks. The most common ways are to have a girl talk/flirt with you, then get attacked by the boyfriend (this is sometimes set up by the guy, but is also often set up by the girl, who gets "turned on" by her man being a thug. Sad, but it happens), or for her to simply start yelling at some real or imagined slight ("Did you just grab my ___? You spilt my drink!" etc), and again, while you are dealing with her, the guy hits you from an unseen place. As well as that, at least here in Australia, the most common way to be stabbed is in a bar/club by the girlfriend of the guy you are currently fighting...

That said, in this situation it is very hard to know what to do. You not only have to deal with your social conditioning, you also have to realise that other peoples social conditioning will come into it as well. So, for these and other reasons, if all she is doing is yelling, as quickly as possible extract yourself from the situation, but be very aware of any other potential attackers who she may be with. If you hit at this point, reagardless of the reality, you will pretty much always be seen as the "bad guy", by all witnesses and security around. If she starts hitting you, cover, and get out. I don't recommend restraint here, again because of the perception of witnesses (you've just grabbed hold of some poor girl!), but also because it leaves you open to any other person she is there with. And if you've asked her to stop, leave you lone etc, and she hasn't, again, the prioritiy is to get out of there. There is no positive in staying.

Let's kick it up a bit, though. Female gangs are becoming more and more common, both in Australia and other parts of the world, so let's take the same OP, and look at it in a more violent light. Let's say that the girl in question is just one of a group (say, 6 or so?), and she has come up yelling at you, in an attempt to intimidate and assault/mug you. Does that change anyone's answer?

Personally, in a group assault, pre-emptive striking is my prefered option. I don't really care if it is a man, woman, or even a group of kids (teenagers, for example). It is simply too dangerous to let them start the physical side of things. So, in this case, just yelling is enough for me to hit. If it is one woman, I am likely to be more restrained, unless she pulls a weapon, in which case I treat her like anyone else who pulls a weapon. Basically, in all of this, I see no difference based on gender, I only see a difference based on risk and inherrent danger. And, from a mature standpoint, that is the only thing a responsible instructor can do.


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## Marginal (Aug 15, 2009)

Big Don said:


> How much MA training did Lorena Bobbitt have?



Which MA covers defending against scissors while you're asleep?


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## Big Don (Aug 15, 2009)

Marginal said:


> Which MA covers defending against scissors while you're asleep?


She used a knife, and none that I know of.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 15, 2009)

ok.
I have never hit a woman in anger. only in training.

I even had one ex come at me with a knife, and i didnt hit her, i just twisted her wrist till she dropped it, then let her go.

the first time i was arrested, it was because i STOPPED a guy from slapping the **** out of his girl. forcefully.

that being said.

my mother, who was herself beaten by by dad, raised me with this in mind:

"if she raises her fist, and ACTS like a man, then treat her like one."


all this talk about "never" is all BS.

if you think you are in danger, defend yourself. Aint nobody above an *** kicking.

now, like i said, i never have, and i cant see myself doing it, BUT, i am not gonna let someone hurt me just because their plumbing is internal rather than external.

there is a line you do not cross.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Female to male  as well as female to female domestic violence is a lot more common than I think people realise or want to realise. The gender frankly should be ignored and it should be realised that no domestic violence is acceptable and all is against the law, it's all assault, the varying degrees of which depend upon your particular laws where you live.
If being attacked by anyone, reasonable force is what required in this country.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't believe that it is ever ok to hit a woman unless it is to save your life or if it is in the context of sparring where both people tend to understand what the rules are.

In my opinion if you are a man and you are in relationship where she hits you and it is not life threatening to you, then the best thing to do is to end the relationship with her and if necessary to get a restraining order. 

Hitting a woman outside of training or self defense is not only wrong in my book, but it is also immoral, unethical, and should be illegal as I believe that outside of those conditions there is nothing that a woman can do or say to warrent hitting her. 

Real men don't hit women unless it is in a training situation or it is purely in self defense and even in self defense that is limited as you should never use any more force than is necessary to stop the attack. Anything more than that is and will be considered excessive force by the law and can land you in big trouble legally.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 15, 2009)

Big Don said:


> A kick to the groin followed by a kick to the face, throat, knee...
> Pretty damn bad.



I didn't say you should open yourself up by standing legs wide and arms behind your back. Put it like this: you are an experienced MAist. I don't know your experience level but let's say black belt.

A woman half your weight, not a quarter of your strength and no MA experience walks in and for some reason you end up sparring on the very first day.

Even if she would try to hurt you, would she succeed?
No. Not if you pay attention. That was the point I was trying to make.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Female to male  as well as female to female domestic violence is a lot more common than I think people realise or want to realise. The gender frankly should be ignored and it should be realised that no domestic violence is acceptable and all is against the law, it's all assault, the varying degrees of which depend upon your particular laws where you live.
> If being attacked by anyone, reasonable force is what required in this country.



I cannot speak from experience, but the usual scenarios of female to male abuse in a relationship are psychological and verbal because that is where women are stronger than men.

And I guess that makes sense. If you want to abuse someone, you do it in a way that the odds are on your side.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> I cannot speak from experience, but the usual scenarios of female to male abuse in a relationship are psychological and verbal because that is where women are stronger than men.
> 
> And I guess that makes sense. If you want to abuse someone, you do it in a way that the odds are on your side.


 
I have dealt with cases over the years where a woman has been beating her husband/partner up over a period of time, the man is usually ashamed to come out in the open with it and we find out about it when it has got so bad the man has had to get treatment from the A&E department.
It's no different from male to female violence in that domestic violence is not acceptable full stop.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 15, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> Hitting a woman outside of training or self defense is not only wrong in my book, but it is also immoral, unethical, and should be illegal as I believe that outside of those conditions there is nothing that a woman can do or say to warrent hitting her.
> 
> Real men don't hit women unless it is in a training situation or it is purely in self defense and even in self defense that is limited as you should never use any more force than is necessary to stop the attack. Anything more than that is and will be considered excessive force by the law and can land you in big trouble legally.


 
But shouldn't this all apply to hitting a man too?


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Laurentkd said:


> But shouldn't this all apply to hitting a man too?


 
I believe so. It comes across as patronising otherwise.


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 15, 2009)

The last time I ever hit anybody, I think I was ten years old, and I&#8217;ve never hit a woman. I think most people are in the same situation as me. Give me a sword or a jo anyday!!

If you get into a situation of verbal or physical violence to such an extreme as has been discussed, the relationship is or should be over. (My first thought on reading the OP was a domestic) 

I out weigh my wife, who has zero MA training, by damn near 100 pounds, and I have MA training, in weapons, and I&#8217;m an Ex-bodybuilder who still trains hard. If she ever hit me, my fear would be who would the police believe? If I hit her back, she may just say I started it and she was defending herself. I think I would restrain and avoid her at all costs, protecting myself in the process. Then I would get the hell outta Dodge.

In public, hopefully with lots of witnesses, I would do everything possible to avoid such a situation, but I would use the minimal amount of force necessary to stop any altercation, including hitting a woman.

It&#8217;s seems society still has a stigma when it comes to hitting women, even if your actions are justified.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 15, 2009)

I guess it's the Southern Gentleman in me but I feel that unless your life or the life of another is in jeopardy, *NEVER*. 

Doesn't mean I wouldn't put a "hold" on a female for something less, that can be accomplished without causing serious damage with minor discomfort. 

BUT, you can simply remove yourself from the situation in most cases and should do so.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 15, 2009)

Wey said:


> For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?
> 
> I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.
> 
> Your thoughts?


 
Verbal No

Physical No

I did ask the question of my ex, "What is the difference from her hitting and throwing things at me and me hitting or throwing things at her?" While this made her mad, it made her think of the danger she might get herself in someday.

That being said, if my life or general well being was at risk I would do what had to be done to stop the threat. Grab and hold. Get away. But, sometimes violence is called for. And in those cases once again do what is required to end or stop the threat. 

If this is an abusive situation, call the police and get a report. Go the police station and get or ask for handouts on domestic violence and call tehm for help. Years ago the stats were 2% of reported cases were women physically abusing men. But that was reported cases. 


If this is all about sparring, then use the level of control and contact that your school is using for your level of training. Both of you should understnad that while you are trying to hit each other and improve your skills it is not about anger or getting even or on purpose hurting someone.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I have dealt with cases over the years where a woman has been beating her husband/partner up over a period of time, the man is usually ashamed to come out in the open with it and we find out about it when it has got so bad the man has had to get treatment from the A&E department.
> It's no different from male to female violence in that domestic violence is not acceptable full stop.


 
Tez,

You are correct, men go that did not hurt and then the women continue with the bad behaviour as the reaction they got only made them mad and reinforces their anger. In the end they step it up a notch and then another and then they break a bone, solar plexus, eye socket, and now the guy is really embarrassed and says nothing. 

And even if the guys says My wife did it, 99.99% of the world laughs and thinks he is joking and thinks he did something stupid and does not want to talk about it. 

I have dealt with a woman who also told people I hit and abused her. Friends who came to me and asked what was up? 

You are correct there is no difference be it Male to female ot female to male or male to male or femalte to female in a relationship it is not acceptable.


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## jarrod (Aug 15, 2009)

growing up my mom was usually the one to apply punishment, physical & otherwise.  she's pretty tough; her folks died when she was 17 & she raised her 13 & 14 year old brothers by herself.  this kind of led her to a hands-on approach to discipline (though i wouldn't say abusive).  this upbringing also instilled in me the idea that if a woman dishes it out, she can take it.  dear old mom was also the one who told me "well, hit them back," whenever i complained about bullies or my big brother.  she also gave me my first lessons in dirty fighting.    

now that said, i've never struck a woman even the couple times one has got physical with me.  but if a woman actually struck me there is a decent chance that i would strike back without even thinking about it.  it's not misogyny, it's just that i am very accustomed to tough women, & to treating them the same as men if they act as if they would like to be treated the same.  

i know this isn't the most chivalrous answer on the thread, but it's an honest one.  

jf


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## padre (Aug 15, 2009)

Escalating to physical violence from verbal aggression isn't cool, regardless of gender.

Whether in sparring or in some other scenario in which a physical response is appropriate, gender is basically irrelevant.


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2009)

Wey said:


> For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?
> 
> I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.
> 
> Your thoughts?


 
I would say no, its not ok, anymore than its ok for the woman to hit the male during a domestic.  In the perfect world, one of the parties, would seperate themselves from the other, call the police and let them sort it out.  But we all know that doesnt always happen.  Providing you have done nothing to start this domestic, then at the most, if getting away isn't an option, then perhaps restraining the person would be an option, to prevent further injury to you and them.


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## Big Don (Aug 15, 2009)

Hey TEZ, What is A&E?


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## Xinglu (Aug 15, 2009)

MJS said:


> Providing you have done nothing to start this domestic, then at the most, if getting away isn't an option, then perhaps restraining the person would be an option, to prevent further injury to you and them.



Yes, qinna is one of the most overlooked, underused, and undervalued methodologies in this day and age.  Yet, IMHO it is often the most appropriate.  Use only as much force as required to stop the fight.  What can easily be resolved with a "surgical instrument" should never be subjected to the type of resolution a "sledge hammer" would give.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Hey TEZ, What is A&E?


 
Your ER. Accident and Emergency. A place to avoid on a Friday and Saturday night in any city, full of drunks who've either fallen off something or been fighting or just passed out on the street. If in the UK the medical treatment is free and usually first rate but never get ill on a Friday or Saturday night. Not Sunday afternoon either, then the drunks who've sobered up just about then realise they are hurt and turn up to mix with all the martial artists, footballers, rugby players etc etc who injure themselves in their chosen sport lol!


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## Big Don (Aug 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Your ER. Accident and Emergency. A place to avoid on a Friday and Saturday night in any city, full of drunks who've either fallen off something or been fighting or just passed out on the street. If in the UK the medical treatment is free and usually first rate but never get ill on a Friday or Saturday night. Not Sunday afternoon either, then the drunks who've sobered up just about then realise they are hurt and turn up to mix with all the martial artists, footballers, rugby players etc etc who injure themselves in their chosen sport lol!


Oh, OK thanks!


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 15, 2009)

*Never hit a woman unless you're both wearing Everlast.*

Actually, I think you should respond to a female assailant the same way you'd respond to a male:  with defense and resistance appropriate to the threat.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> *Never hit a woman unless you're both wearing Everlast.*
> 
> Actually, I think you should respond to a female assailant the same way you'd respond to a male: with defense and resistance appropriate to the threat.


 
and Everlast is?


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## Xinglu (Aug 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> and Everlast is?



A brand of Boxing gloves.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> A brand of Boxing gloves.


 
Ah, thank you!



A tad unnecessary to shout at us though Phoenix!


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## Xinglu (Aug 15, 2009)

Not a problem, just curious and off topic, Everlast is a huge brand for training equipment internationally and a mega-giant here in the states.  What is the most prevalent brand in the UK?  For example most Americans who follow combat sports like boxing or mma or are involved in the MA will know what Everlast is, what brand in the UK is like that for the British?


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Not a problem, just curious and off topic, Everlast is a huge brand for training equipment internationally and a mega-giant here in the states. What is the most prevalent brand in the UK? For example most Americans who follow combat sports like boxing or mma or are involved in the MA will know what Everlast is, what brand in the UK is like that for the British?


 
Probably Lonsdale, Fairtex or Twins, I don't think we have anything that's huge. We have many brands though for martial arts - Blitz, Macho, Faze,Giko, Spirit as well as Adidas and probably a good many more.


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## Xinglu (Aug 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Probably Lonsdale, Fairtex or Twins, I don't think we have anything that's huge. We have many brands though for martial arts - Blitz, Macho, Faze,Giko, Spirit as well as Adidas and probably a good many more.



Thanks, Macho is another popular brand out here too.


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## Hudson69 (Aug 15, 2009)

Man or woman only if it is a matter of the defense of others or myself and then only to make the situation safe(?).  Sex isn't an issue under these matters.


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## Big Don (Aug 16, 2009)

remember the words of the 26th President:


> Never hit if you can honorably avoid hitting, but never hit lightly.


Teddy Roosevelt


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## still learning (Aug 16, 2009)

Hello:  If someone is hitting YOU?   ...call the police...It is against the law for assult and battery...LET THEM HANDLE IT?

Get her arrested...apply for TRO"S....BE smart here..if it happens again...YOU will have documents, if it goes to court!

When being attack by any spouse...leave if you can...Even if you defend yourself against the woman?  ...and she has injury marks...GUESS who will get arrested first? ...most likely  the MALE!

If the Male has bruises? None on her?....most likely the female will be charge here!

ASK or   SEEK ..Professioal ADVICE here..ON what to do? 

Off course every sitution can be different and may require a different approach!

Many of us grew up...learning NOT to hit any woman...and always to protect them....Anger and violance anyone can have them (women too)

911 ....it works .........Aloha,    Be smarter...learn the laws in your State.

PS:  Hawaii will be celebrating it's 50 years of STATEHOOD...Aug,21, 1959 Hawaii became a STATE (the 50th).


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 16, 2009)

Wey said:


> For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?
> 
> I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.
> 
> Your thoughts?



I don't hit women......I find a good arm bar works better.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 16, 2009)

Flea said:


> The fact that you think there are _any_ shades of gray in relationship violence makes my skin crawl.
> 
> Them's my thoughts.



And yet reality shows just that........that stereotypical 'relationship violence' is the exception, not the rule......in reality most 'relationship violence' is a back and forth give and take, with both parties taking turns as aggressor and victim at any given point.

It's politically incorrect to point this out, as we have been inculcated with the notion that men abuse women........but we see this very much when we eliminate gender from the equation, and examine same sex relationships........without the shorthand of assigning blame to a given gender, we then are forced to examine the true dynamics of these situations, and we see they are far more complex than simply 'Abuser/Victim'.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 16, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Flea and Bill - where does he say this has anything to do with domestic violence?  As far as I can tell he is asking about any female attacker.  If you people think that only men commit robbery or lose their temper and throw a punch then you are sorely mistaken.



That automatically becomes an assumption, it would seem.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Female to male  as well as female to female domestic violence is a lot more common than I think people realise or want to realise. The gender frankly should be ignored and it should be realised that no domestic violence is acceptable and all is against the law, it's all assault, the varying degrees of which depend upon your particular laws where you live.
> If being attacked by anyone, reasonable force is what required in this country.



Touche!


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 16, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> I cannot speak from experience, but the usual scenarios of female to male abuse in a relationship are psychological and verbal because that is where women are stronger than men.
> 
> And I guess that makes sense. If you want to abuse someone, you do it in a way that the odds are on your side.




Physical abuse is actually quite common by women.......in fact, such abuse is inadvertently reinforced by the notion that women and men believe that if the police become involved, they will automatically side with the woman.


I once responded to a home for a disturbance call by the neighbors......the front window gave me a view of what was going on, so I observed before announcing for a few moments........what I saw was a man sitting on the couch, with this arms crossed, saying nothing, and looking away, while his wife stood in front of him, leaning forward, and screaming inches from his face.......I then observed her slap him and announced my presence.

As soon as she realized I was there, the screaming immediately became sobs as she tried to paint herself as the victim of domestic violence.......suffice to say she returned to screaming once she realized I observed HER slapping HIM!


Right, wrong or indifferent, the current system, complete with easy to get domestic violence laws, easily obtained orders of protection, and zero accountability for false reports, has created an environment where women yield CONSIDERABLE power within a relationship, by using considerable physical force.......that force comes by order of the courts at the hands of we men and women in uniform.

Now, it's important to have a system where women are protected from legitimate violence.........but it's been my personal experience that MORE THAN HALF of all Protection Orders filled in my area aren't as the result of any fear of physical violence, but are usually the result of some sort of power play, be it an angry ex OR, quite often, because it's seen as gaining a woman leverage in a child custody dispute......lawyers often suggest to their female clients that allegations of abuse could help gain them an advantage........'So have you had any such history of abuse?  Maybe that you've forgotten.....think hard! , wink, wink, nod, nod'


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## searcher (Aug 16, 2009)

In sparring, when the match has started. Since sparring is about making each other better.

On the street, same as when I would hit a guy. I try to do everything I can to difuse the situation and avoid having to strike. If I can block and move and let her wear herself out, all the better. I would also try to restrain anyone before having to hit them, if it is possible.


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## Xinglu (Aug 17, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> That automatically becomes an assumption, it would seem.



It would seem.  Assumptions only serve to do one thing... and I think we all know what that is.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 17, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> It would seem. Assumptions only serve to do one thing... and I think we all know what that is.


 
So...you assume we all know what that "thing" is?


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## Xinglu (Aug 17, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> So...you assume we all know what that "thing" is?



LOL Precisely!  Someone caught it!  :highfive:

Anyways - I would hope that most have heard it, "Assumptions only serve to make an a** out of you and me."


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## BLACK LION (Aug 17, 2009)

There should never be a need to use full force on a female unless she was attempting to kill you...  Anything below that is a hands off kind situation if at all possible and if not I would never strike a female especially when there are plenty of "compliance" methods that can be administered without injuring them...   If its a social or domestic setting then you need to just walk away and put her on ice for a period of time...


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## Big Don (Aug 17, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> There should never be a need to use full force on a female unless she was attempting to kill you...  Anything below that is a hands off kind situation if at all possible and if not I would never strike a female especially when there are plenty of "compliance" methods that can be administered without injuring them...   If its a social or domestic setting then you need to just walk away and put her on ice for a period of time...


Even were she trying to kill me, full force might be overkill (pun intended) About 15 years ago, my ex wife was throwing coffee cups and plates, and finally tried to kick me in the groin, I lost it for a moment, threw one punch, stepped over her and grabbed my wallet, walked around the corner to the 7-11, called the cops and they arrested HER. Anecdotal, sure, but, then that is what happened.


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## stonewall1350 (Aug 17, 2009)

Is there ever ANY reason that a full grown man should think it acceptable to hit women? Yes, I am only 20...but I dont feel my personality fits with today's. I dont smoke, no tobacco, I dont even drink. Sometimes I feel that justice is not nearly a harsh as it should be. But I am old school in thought. I feel that alot of the older values were good values...when I date I open doors, pull out chairs, I dont swear. I have never really heard this question come up...but I can say that there is NEVER an acceptable reason for a male to resort to physical violence against a woman unless she is...in short...trying to kill the man.

Now if she is talking bad about you...bashing you...telling you that your penis is small...you better at least have the stones to take that. Part of being a man is NOT losing your temper and having self control. If she slaps you...what did you do to get slapped? If you dont have it in you to take a slap to the face then you arent a man. I was punched full force in the face by my cousin a few months ago. We were tired and he was a little sick. We had been hunting all week and he got upset over some trivial thing and took a full on punch that knocked my jaw so hard it didnt sit right for 4 days. I didnt swing back, it was pointless he was sick, pissed off, out of control, and I would have beat him black and blue. I did of course get him against the truck and keep him from hitting me anymore. If I have the restraint to keep from fighting a family member who punched me, any man can keep himself from hitting a woman if she slaps him.

Now on to another issue that I have heard. If she comes at you with an object(now lets face it, if your in a relationship or situation where he woman is trying to give you a nose job the old fashion way, you REALLY need to reconsider your dating plan). Now you DO have the right to "defend" yourself. That means gaining control over her and keeping her from hurting you. You dont need to punch her, knock her out, whatever. You should be able to parry, dodge, block any blunt object or any object being thrown at you short of hammers and wrenches. Or you could just get the hell out of wherever you are and call the police.

Now if she is trying to STAB you or shoot you...thats intent to kill...thats when its time to actually resort to physical violence and defend yourself. But how often does that happen? This question is SO similar to the when is rape not rape question. I mean the fact is....rape is rape when she says no. It comes down to self control and the man who has it and the one who doesnt. I know that I could not be a cop because I could not resist the temptation of putting the bullet in the skull of a man who beat the hell out of a woman or raped her and it was obvious as to what happened. Personally I think we should bring back the rope for heinous crimes like that. I mean all this talk of going green and we got rid of the noose? Its cheap, reusable, and its got the fear factor. But hey i got the self control not to be the cop eh? lol


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## Big Don (Aug 17, 2009)

If, after say, pinning her arms to her side and her *** to the wall so she cannot hit you.
You go to the other room to avoid her and any problems, there is a knock at the door, and two policemen enter to arrest you because your grip caused bruises and she called the cops and said You attacked Her. 
Or, 
You could lay her out and call the cops yourself...
Your choice, mine has the aggressor wearing the handcuffs, your's has you likely to wear them.


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## stonewall1350 (Aug 18, 2009)

Big Don said:


> If, after say, pinning her arms to her side and her *** to the wall so she cannot hit you.
> You go to the other room to avoid her and any problems, there is a knock at the door, and two policemen enter to arrest you because your grip caused bruises and she called the cops and said You attacked Her.
> Or,
> You could lay her out and call the cops yourself...
> Your choice, mine has the aggressor wearing the handcuffs, your's has you likely to wear them.


 
NOT smart. You lay her out and she can say she only defended herself for so long till you knocked her out...especially with the way domestic violence is traditionally looked at. Any defense attorney including Ted could win that law suit(points to those who got that). Of course grip marks can be EASILY explained, not to mention I would feel FAR more comfortable having control from the rear bear hug style(FIVE WHOOPSH...sorry another reference and points to those who got it). I am assuming this situation is domesic violence quality.

This isnt the shoot or dont shoot situation. I mean its one thing to explain the dead body and how you legally shot the person. Its alot harder to explain that you didnt start the fight when the person who started hitting you has a concussion and a fractured skull. especially in a domestic violence situation.


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## MrE2Me2 (Aug 25, 2009)

With my current wife; we have a peaceful and mature relationship. Raised voices do not even enter into it (never mind raised hands).

I my early adult relationships, I did not hit or yell at women, except during martial arts training. There I got as good as I gave.

Being a gentleman was what I was raised to be and I was proud of that upbringing.

However...

My second wife was a bully. All five foot two and one hundred pounds of her. If she didn't get her way, her voice went up. From there, things just got worse. 

She didn't exhibit this violent behaviour until we ran into some difficulties a few years after we were married.

The first time she shoved me, I stepped back. When she went to shove me again, I cuffed her. 

It didn't hurt her but here is what surprised me. She later told me that she would not have stopped attacking me physically until I fought back.

The writing was on the wall.


When she left, she called the police and they showed up eight strong. She had told them I was a black belt.

Frankly, I was relieved to see  them and told them so. Their presence put an end to the hostilities.

In the end, I simply quit speaking to her...at all. Even after we were divorced.

It was most shocking to me, a seasoned black belt, that this life partner would resort to violence to get her way. 

But if I had not hit back, she would have just continued attacking me.


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## MrE2Me2 (Aug 25, 2009)

By the way,

Whenever I used to think of those days, I would get uncomfortable.

Finally, I realized a couple of things.

I got away with a minimum of damage.

And...

I'm so lucky to be where I am now.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 25, 2009)

MrE2Me2 said:


> With my current wife; we have a peaceful and mature relationship. Raised voices do not even enter into it (never mind raised hands).
> 
> I my early adult relationships, I did not hit or yell at women, except during martial arts training. There I got as good as I gave.
> 
> ...


 She resorted to several levels of violence to get her way........and when physically doing it didn't work, she manipulated the state to engage in violence on her behalf.  Age old story.

The fact is that those who engage in violence as a control mechanism within a relationship are usually willing to engage in other manipulative and damaging behavior, especially if that physical manipulation doesn't work.


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## Joab (Aug 25, 2009)

I can't hit a woman, I have a mental block against hitting a woman.


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## Dragon Soul (Aug 25, 2009)

MrE2Me2 said:


> With my current wife; we have a peaceful and mature relationship. Raised voices do not even enter into it (never mind raised hands).
> 
> I my early adult relationships, I did not hit or yell at women, except during martial arts training. There I got as good as I gave.
> 
> ...


 
I've been in this situation plently  of times with my current girlfriend. Before I got with her, I never had a temper with women, I was raised better than that. I'm normally the type to just walk away from an argument or situation that may become hostile, but with my lady, it isn't quite that simple, she'll follow you into the next room and continue her onslaught of verbal abuse. I would ask kindly to be left alone to cool down, then I get a "make me!" or "you're not gonna do anything!". And we live together, so I can't just leave and go home to my bed.

My mother told me that times were different these days, and some women have less conviction toward men and in some cases the rule against hitting women does not apply. My mom changed the rule to: "A gentleman should never EVER strike a LADY, but a B**CH is just asking for it". I think it's unfair that some women take for granted that a gentleman won't strike them and think they can get away with anything. I think one should be a gentleman toward a lady, and a woman should act like a lady if she wants to be treated as such.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 25, 2009)

Joab said:


> I can't hit a woman, I have a mental block against hitting a woman.



Depends on the woman..........  http://www.sptimes.com/News/112401/TampaBay/Slain_boy_s_mother_ha.shtml

Not every woman is your mother or your sister.


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## Dragon Soul (Aug 25, 2009)

Precisely Sgtmac, we aren't in the age where every woman wears billowing dresses on a daily basis, curtsy, and stays at home cooking dinner and washing clothes. They are our equals and I treat them as such. In fact, to not treat them equally would be disrespectful and demeaning to everything people like Susan B. Anthony worked for.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 25, 2009)

equal rights come with equal responsibilities

and sometimes, just like men, women need to learn when to shut the hell up.

there are lines you just do NOT cross.


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## CoryKS (Aug 25, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> equal rights come with equal responsibilities
> 
> and sometimes, just like men, women need to learn when to shut the hell up.
> 
> there are lines you just do NOT cross.


 
Maybe true, but that would require a principled stand on the concept of equality, where one agreed to accept the drawbacks as well as the benefits.  Most people don't hold to principles, they'd rather get the best deal for themselves.  I would guess that even if you believed in the positive aspects of equality, few women are going to thank you for handling them the same way you would handle a man who got up in your face.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 25, 2009)

oh trust me, i know that. "Treat me the same as a man"

"ok, I aint paying for dinner."

"but,,,,but,,,,,,,but,,,,,,,"

"and you can get the door for yourself too."


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 25, 2009)

Dragon Soul said:


> Precisely Sgtmac, we aren't in the age where every woman wears billowing dresses on a daily basis, curtsy, and stays at home cooking dinner and washing clothes. They are our equals and I treat them as such. In fact, to not treat them equally would be disrespectful and demeaning to everything people like Susan B. Anthony worked for.



Quite true, and well beyond the domestic violence angle, which is a different story, it is not beyond the realm of possibility to be confronted by a violent female criminal.

In fact, while statistically men still engage in far more acts of overt criminal violent behavior, women account for a not insignificant portion of criminal acts, especially alarming is the rise of violent female gang members.

So, one needs to ask oneself, if confronted by three or four violent females intent on serious assault, how far is one willing to go to defend oneself.


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## Wey (Aug 25, 2009)

Interesting, some people are saying is absolutely never ok to hit a woman, others say if they want equal treatment, being hit comes along with that. 

Of course, it is hard to say how you would react until you're actually in that position. To each their own though, I just wanted to hear a couple of different view points.


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## blindsage (Aug 25, 2009)

Dragon Soul said:


> I've been in this situation plently of times with my current girlfriend. Before I got with her, I never had a temper with women, I was raised better than that. I'm normally the type to just walk away from an argument or situation that may become hostile, but with my lady, it isn't quite that simple, she'll follow you into the next room and continue her onslaught of verbal abuse. I would ask kindly to be left alone to cool down, then I get a "make me!" or "you're not gonna do anything!". And we live together, so I can't just leave and go home to my bed.
> 
> My mother told me that times were different these days, and some women have less conviction toward men and in some cases the rule against hitting women does not apply. My mom changed the rule to: "A gentleman should never EVER strike a LADY, but a B**CH is just asking for it". I think it's unfair that some women take for granted that a gentleman won't strike them and think they can get away with anything. I think one should be a gentleman toward a lady, and a woman should act like a lady if she wants to be treated as such.


Yeah, it is unfair, but instead of resorting to "a B**CH is just asking for it" mentality, you need to get out of the situation.  You said she's your current girlfriend, which means you are choosing to stay in a relationship in which not only are healthy communication skills lacking, but that by your own admission is abusive.  Get out.


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## MrE2Me2 (Aug 25, 2009)

blindsage said:


> Yeah, it is unfair, but instead of resorting to "a B**CH is just asking for it" mentality, you need to get out of the situation.  You said she's your current girlfriend, which means you are choosing to stay in a relationship in which not only are healthy communication skills lacking, but that by your own admission is abusive.  Get out.



That is what I did. I got out.
And don't think it was easy either.
I had to jump through a lot of hoops.
It took nearly two years (2) to get divorced.
But by rebuilding my new life, it got easier, little by little.

In my new relationship, I and my now wife (then girlfriend) set out the rules early in our relationship.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 25, 2009)

I have been hit by the female gender on more than a couple occasions. I have also been hit by a car 2 times on foot and 2 times on my motorcycle by a woman. I have been punched repeatedly, cut and had things thrown at me that one should probably not throw at other humans...  I have been punched standing and driving....   
I also watched my mother punch my father and throw anything she could find up to but not limited to a boiling pot of beans accompanied by a drawer full of silverware... my father would do nothing but call us in the room and say "look what your mother is doing" and never lay a hand on her not even throw unkind words at her in return...   
I learned from this...and although I have 4 brothers and no sisters, not hitting women is a value ingrained in me since I was a child... 

I have been hit by females and it has pissed me off immensley but not enought to lose the values I was raised on...   regardless of how women behave, they are fragile and there is no need to expel force on such fragile creatures unless the are trying to cripple of kill you... plain and simple...


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## Cirdan (Aug 26, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> (..)regardless of how women behave, they are fragile and there is no need to expel force on such fragile creatures (..)


 
Women are not children.


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## MrE2Me2 (Aug 26, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> I have been hit by the female gender on more than a couple occasions. I have also been hit by a car 2 times on foot and 2 times on my motorcycle by a woman. I have been punched repeatedly, cut and had things thrown at me that one should probably not throw at other humans...  I have been punched standing and driving....



I can read that you know what it is to be physically assaulted.



BLACK LION said:


> I also watched my mother punch my father and throw anything she could find up to but not limited to a boiling pot of beans accompanied by a drawer full of silverware... my father would do nothing but call us in the room and say "look what your mother is doing" and never lay a hand on her not even throw unkind words at her in return...



I can read how your father was similarly assaulted (no disrespect is meant).



BLACK LION said:


> I learned from this...and although I have 4 brothers and no sisters, not hitting women is a value ingrained in me since I was a child...



I can see how you not have any role model guidance to direct you to defending yourself from violent females (again, no disrespect).



BLACK LION said:


> I have been hit by females and it has pissed me off immensley but not enought to lose the values I was raised on...   regardless of how women behave, they are fragile and there is no need to expel force on such fragile creatures unless the are trying to cripple of kill you... plain and simple...



I was shocked by your statement about 'fragile creatures'. 
So shocked that I showed it to my wife. 
She chuffed and expressed her indignation at it.

When I have been assaulted and had to defend myself, the attacks were invariably from ambush. That is to say, I was not expecting them.

So the questions that spring to my mind as soon as I read your post are:

How do you determine when you are in danger of being crippled?
How much time do you think it takes to cripple you?

How do you determine when you are in mortal danger?
How much time do you think it takes to kill?

In closing (and with respect); I disagree with you.

I have spent my life becoming able to defend myself (against anyone who is able to hurt me).

A large part of that training went to why do I train?
And...
How much force is justified at any given time?


I do not regard young vital women as 'fragile creatures'.
Nor do I regard unarmed little old ladies as deadly enemies.
I assess each situation on its own.

*Kindly note that I have gone out of my way to be courteous (and I believe that you are being courteous too). I view this topic as being fraught with tension.

Without prejudice


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 26, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> I have been hit by the female gender on more than a couple occasions. I have also been hit by a car 2 times on foot and 2 times on my motorcycle by a woman. I have been punched repeatedly, cut and had things thrown at me that one should probably not throw at other humans... I have been punched standing and driving....
> I also watched my mother punch my father and throw anything she could find up to but not limited to a boiling pot of beans accompanied by a drawer full of silverware... my father would do nothing but call us in the room and say "look what your mother is doing" and never lay a hand on her not even throw unkind words at her in return...
> I learned from this...and although I have 4 brothers and no sisters, not hitting women is a value ingrained in me since I was a child...
> 
> I have been hit by females and it has pissed me off immensley but not enought to lose the values I was raised on... regardless of how women behave, they are fragile and there is no need to expel force on such fragile creatures unless the are trying to cripple of kill you... plain and simple...


 
I am going to have to disagree with you about women being fragile creatures. While some women may present themselve's to be fragile and dainty there are other women out there that can be just as tough as men.

I do however agree with you that a man should never hit a woman unless she is trying to maim or kill you. In that instance and only in that instance is a man justified in hitting a woman. 

There is one other time when I think that it might be ok to hit a woman, and that is when it is in a controlled environment like a dojo where she knows and expects that she could be hit by a man as part of the training. 

Outside of those two instances I believe that it is never acceptable to hit a woman for any reason regardless of what she does or says to you as you should be smart enough to walk away from the situation and strong enough to restrain her if she becomes violent towards you.

I also on the flip side don't believe that it is acceptable for a woman to hit a man except in the same scenario's.

That's just my humble opinion and as to how I see things.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 26, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Women are not children.



Some women are most definitely children.......of course some men are as well.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 26, 2009)

I've hit one women out of anger/fear in my entire adult life........and that was an ex (Who taught me the definition of 'Borderline Personality Disorder') who I truly believed was actively trying to kill me with my own vehicle.

She lost her flipping mind and took me on the ride of my life, down residential streets at high double and low triple digit speeds, narrowly having missed other parked and moving vehicles, trees, buildings, etc.........she had spun out trying to make a turn at an intersection and was attempting to take off again, when I threw the car in to park and tried to grab the keys so I could buy time to bail out without getting run over.  

When I tried to grab the keys, she bit me, HARD......I ignored her biting me, and managed to get the keys out of the ignition, when she started throwing punches.

I grabbed her to avoid the punches, and was just pinning her arms to prevent her from hitting me, when she got an arm free and threw an elbow that hit me in the temple and made me see stars.......I told her not to do that again, and tried to prevent the next one, that nearly knocked me out......that's when I threw one single punch to the side of her head, and told her to STOP!

That stunned her enough for me to get out of the car.......I could see by the look in her eye that she NEVER expected me to hit her back.........though she still had the keys and probably would have tried to run me down if I hadn't ran for the tree line.

Now........5'2 110lbs she may have been.......but 'fragile' she most DEFINITELY was not.......when she got mad she was wired steel!  And, I could have prevented her from doing much physically to me if we were in the open........in the confined space of that Chevrolet Cavalier car, SHE had the advantage on me, being more compact and far more able to maneuver than my 6'5 frame!  All I wanted to do was get out of that car.


The broad was CRAZY!  I'm glad to have her 15 years in my taillights.....and before that moment I was just like blacklion described.......she'd get violent and i'd let her rage, and try to mitigate the damage as much as possible, only intervening physically when she came at me with a hammer or a some other object, and then only to disarm her and pin her to the floor.........but Phil Hartman entered my mind, and I got the hell out of there.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 26, 2009)

MrE2Me2 said:


> I can read that you know what it is to be physically assaulted. *Agreed...BUT ... I cannot agree that I was truly assaulted becuase I had been in worse and knew the difference between assault and agression...The very reason why I approached it in a different manner than I would if it had been a true assault or if I felt truly assaulted... Was my ego crushed , OF COURSE! Was I pissed the @%&$ off, CERTAINLY!  But... I,  being of sound mind and body knew the line and was not in a position to cross it...  *
> *I make zero agressive contact with females on a social /asocial level... walking away and continuing to walk is an easy one...*
> 
> 
> ...


 
I hope this makes sense....


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2009)

I was going to post up that I have no problems hitting women (which I don't) then sit and wait for the hate lol! :ultracool


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## suicide (Aug 26, 2009)

if a women slaps you is it legal to slap her back ?


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## Big Don (Aug 26, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I was going to post up that I have no problems hitting women (which I don't) then sit and wait for the hate lol! :ultracool


You're bad


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## Cirdan (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I was going to post up that I have no problems hitting women (which I don't) then sit and wait for the hate lol! :ultracool


 
Hey that`s cheating! Women are supposed to claw and pull hair, what happened to the good old catfight?


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 27, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> I have been hit by the female gender on more than a couple occasions. I have also been hit by a car 2 times on foot and 2 times on my motorcycle by a woman. I have been punched repeatedly, cut and had things thrown at me that one should probably not throw at other humans... I have been punched standing and driving....
> I also watched my mother punch my father and throw anything she could find up to but not limited to a boiling pot of beans accompanied by a drawer full of silverware... my father would do nothing but call us in the room and say "look what your mother is doing" and never lay a hand on her not even throw unkind words at her in return...
> I learned from this...and although I have 4 brothers and no sisters, not hitting women is a value ingrained in me since I was a child...
> 
> I have been hit by females and it has pissed me off immensley but not enought to lose the values I was raised on... regardless of how women behave, they are fragile and there is no need to expel force on such fragile creatures unless the are trying to cripple of kill you... plain and simple...


 


Cirdan said:


> Hey that`s cheating! Women are supposed to claw and pull hair, what happened to the good old catfight?


 
If there is going to be a catfight, then I want a good ringside seat, some popcorn or chips and some beer to go with it.

What fun is a good catfight without snacks and beer as well as a good ringside seat?


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## Carol (Aug 27, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> If there is going to be a catfight, then I want a good ringside seat, some popcorn or chips and some beer to go with it.
> 
> What fun is a good catfight without snacks and beer as well as a good ringside seat?



No fun at all!  :lol:


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## CoryKS (Aug 27, 2009)

Well, I see what's going on in here. I am smack dab in the middle of a good old fashioned cat fight. Woof!


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Women are not children.


 
Fragile creatures does not equate to the definition of a child...


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## Cirdan (Aug 27, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> Fragile creatures does not equate to the definition of a child...


 
Fragile creatures you treat with kid gloves no matter what they might try  to do to you comes pretty close tho.


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## Carol (Aug 27, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Well, I see what's going on in here. I am smack dab in the middle of a good old fashioned cat fight. Woof!



Who let the dogs out?


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## suicide (Aug 27, 2009)

the real deal

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh64JaO28BBj97cCje


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2009)

suicide said:


> if a women slaps you is it legal to slap her back ?



Not as retaliation.


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## Milt G. (Aug 28, 2009)

Hello,
If you practice proper control and focus there is no need to treat women differently then men in regards to training.  Actually everyone should be treated with the same consideration.  When you practice you should feel some "discomfort" related to giving and taking strikes.  That goes with training.

I have worked with women who can trade it pretty well with anyone.  In the sparring "mode" as well.  If you consistantly hurt or injure your partner, though, you lack the control necessary to train with others, period.  It is that simple.

The only place women require extra consideration in a dojo revolves around the "changing/dressing room". 

Some students, of both genders, have comfort levels different then others.  As a teacher you should make it a point to consider this as well.  Now, I did say "consider".  You can learn valuable self defense without "beating yourself down" with every workout.  Most of us practice martial arts as a hobby, which means we may have to participate in some other "work" the next day.

An interesting topic which would have had some different responses, I bet, 30 or 40 years ago.  Of course, we are now well into the 21st century.

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Guardian (Aug 29, 2009)

Been gone for a while.

If a women wants to hit me, then she better be prepared to be hit back, it's that pure and simple.  It doesn't matter if sparring or real life.


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## jonbey (Aug 30, 2009)

Ideally a martial artist should be trained well enough to be able to your the required force to defend themselves, regardless of the situation / attacker etc. If a woman attacks someone, then really you should defend yourself in the same way as in any other situation. Would you use excessive force if a man attacked you? Isn't that taking the law into your own hands and turning self defense into punishment?


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## Kenpo17 (Sep 5, 2009)

Verbal abuse, it is not ok to hit a woman.  Physical abuse though, you can take the neccesary actions to make sure you don't get injured from her attacks.  If needed treat her like you would a man and buckle her to the ground and do what you need to do to get her off or away from you.


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## chinto (Sep 9, 2009)

Wey said:


> For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?
> 
> I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.
> 
> Your thoughts?




I would say that if she lays hands on me in a way that I would feel the need to defend myself from a man, then well I will treat her the same way.  If i do not feel threatened, then like with a man I would not.  

Any more the privileges of being treated as a Lady, are earned, not given!
since i was a child in the 60's the womens lib movement and many women have told me to treat them like equals, so I will. 

Non of the privileges, or special considerations, that was generally granted a ' lady' traditionally should be granted till she Earns that right by acting like a LADY!.. and a Lady would not act in such a way as I would need to defend myself, being a Gentleman in my actions myself. 
So If she does act in such a non ladylike way, she is not a lady.  
If she is not a Lady then she forfeits the considerations and curtsey's extended to one!!  That being the case is not entitled to any consideration you would not show any one else attacking you.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Sep 9, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Now, it's important to have a system where women are protected from legitimate violence.........but it's been my personal experience that MORE THAN HALF of all Protection Orders filled in my area aren't as the result of any fear of physical violence, but are usually the result of some sort of power play, be it an angry ex OR, quite often, because it's seen as gaining a woman leverage in a child custody dispute......


 
Of course there is the other side of the coin...the protection orders which should be filed, and aren't. Many victims of domestic abuse are too afraid of their abuser to make any complaint. Or worse, they keep quiet because they believe the abuse is their own fault and if they just act right then he will stop.


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## kungfu penguin (Sep 9, 2009)

i would really have to feel threatened to strike a female  but i did have to choke a girl out once  if i let her get up she would have hurt me bad   just used enough force to keep me safe  nothing else


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