# Judo For Self-Defense On The Street?



## WarriorMonk7

Hello all.

I am new, so please be easy on me.

I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.

I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).

This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)

Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?

1. Judokas wear tough gis.

The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?

2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.

Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.

3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.

-

Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo? Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?










BTW - please don't recommend BJJ over Judo. This is not a BJJ thread and I think BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.

(And these defenses are not great. ---> 



)

Let me know what you think!!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

So first: you say you're rounding out your game. Do you currently have experience in a striking art? If so then yes a grappling art would help you round out defense.

As for judo in particular: Many judo clubs are heavily sport based. However, this is not all judo clubs, and various judo schools have a self-defense curriculum (if there is a judo school/club near you, ask them if they have one and that will give you a good idea of whether they are sport based or overall judo based). However, judo has a pretty steep learning curve, so if you are interested in immediate self-defense for whatever reason, it may not be the best option, but if you can stick it out a while, it can either teach you self-defense or round out your self defense.

As someone who came from striking and started judo, it has made me a lot more confident SD wise. My art does teach throws and sweeps, but the main result I saw from judo was takedown defense: When you are sparring people constantly who specialize in takedowns, you get good at defending them. Definitely helpful for SD when people who don't specialize in takedown/throws/sweeps attempt one of them.

Regarding BJJ: you likely don't know since you are new here, but the forum has strict anti-bashing rules about other styles. While I wouldn't recommend BJJ for SD, there are ways that it can be utilized, but it has to be done (in my opinion) by a school that also teaches some standup art, with BJJ being utilized if grappling occurs, and taught with an SD mindset rather than an MMA mindset or a sport BJJ mindset, which from my own experience seems to be pretty rare.


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## kuniggety

There are folks that practice judo without a gi. While she did finally lose, Rhonda Roussey pulled off her judo pretty darn well in a non-gi setting.

Regarding your comments on BJJ: you seriously have no idea what you're talking about. Get into either of those positions with a half-way competent BJJ practitioner, try punching them in the groin, and see how well that works out for you. Seriously, it's not even possible. Unless you're born with a genetic abnormality, the testicles hang underneath/between your legs and not in the front of your body. Whether I'm in the mount (which is a superior fighting position in any art...ground n pound) or in closed guard (a specialty of BJJ), the testicles are sitting between me and the person I'm grappling with, i.e. They're not exposed. I admit that I could be punched in the penis, which would be quite painful, but not debilitating in any shape or form.

The Draculino video you posted has to do with someone reaching down to grab the testicles and not striking. I'm not sure why you're saying they're not good defenses. The main thing is you're setting yourself up for a triangle choke which he clearly demonstrates. He also demonstrates the guillotine choke for anyone foolish enough to put both hands down. It's BJJ 101 type stuff.

MT teaches a lot of trips and throws from the clinch and is a good option.


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## WarriorMonk7

kuniggety said:


> There are folks that practice judo without a gi. While she did finally lose, Rhonda Roussey pulled off her judo pretty darn well in a non-gi setting.
> 
> Regarding your comments on BJJ: you seriously have no idea what you're talking about. Get into either of those positions with a half-way competent BJJ practitioner, try punching them in the groin, and see how well that works out for you. Seriously, it's not even possible. Unless you're born with a genetic abnormality, the testicles hang underneath/between your legs and not in the front of your body. Whether I'm in the mount (which is a superior fighting position in any art...ground n pound) or in closed guard (a specialty of BJJ), the testicles are sitting between me and the person I'm grappling with, i.e. They're not exposed. I admit that I could be punched in the penis, which would be quite painful, but not debilitating in any shape or form.
> 
> The Draculino video you posted has to do with someone reaching down to grab the testicles and not striking. I'm not sure why you're saying they're not good defenses. The main thing is you're setting yourself up for a triangle choke which he clearly demonstrates. He also demonstrates the guillotine choke for anyone foolish enough to put both hands down. It's BJJ 101 type stuff.
> 
> MT teaches a lot of trips and throws from the clinch and is a good option.


Okay then. Can you elaborate as to why groin shots would not would in BJJ?

Please be specific.


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## WarriorMonk7

kempodisciple said:


> So first: you say you're rounding out your game. Do you currently have experience in a striking art? If so then yes a grappling art would help you round out defense.
> 
> As for judo in particular: Many judo clubs are heavily sport based. However, this is not all judo clubs, and various judo schools have a self-defense curriculum (if there is a judo school/club near you, ask them if they have one and that will give you a good idea of whether they are sport based or overall judo based). However, judo has a pretty steep learning curve, so if you are interested in immediate self-defense for whatever reason, it may not be the best option, but if you can stick it out a while, it can either teach you self-defense or round out your self defense.
> 
> As someone who came from striking and started judo, it has made me a lot more confident SD wise. My art does teach throws and sweeps, but the main result I saw from judo was takedown defense: When you are sparring people constantly who specialize in takedowns, you get good at defending them. Definitely helpful for SD when people who don't specialize in takedown/throws/sweeps attempt one of them.
> 
> Regarding BJJ: you likely don't know since you are new here, but the forum has strict anti-bashing rules about other styles. While I wouldn't recommend BJJ for SD, there are ways that it can be utilized, but it has to be done (in my opinion) by a school that also teaches some standup art, with BJJ being utilized if grappling occurs, and taught with an SD mindset rather than an MMA mindset or a sport BJJ mindset, which from my own experience seems to be pretty rare.


Thank you!!


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## JR 137

If you're concerned about the reliance of the gi to throw in judo, perhaps try wrestling?  Greco-Roman is very throw heavy, and grabbing the uniform to execute anything is illegal.  Folk Style (scholastic and collegiate in the US) and Freestyle also have a lot of throws.

I wrestled from 3rd grade through high school, and coached it.  It's not the be all, end all for self defense as people claim it to be sometimes.  

Just a thought.  I have no judo experience to be able to say if it's easily adaptable to no gi or not.  A lot of the sleeve cuff grabs seem like they'd be almost just as easily done by grabbing the wrist instead, but I haven't tried judo to be able to say so.

The biggest benefit to throwing arts (so to speak) isn't the throws themselves IMO, it's the principles.  Learning balance in regards to pushing and pulling, when to allow your opponent to push you to take advantage of it, when to push back, how to bend without breaking, etc.  Wrestling and judo will teach that very well IMO; perhaps in different ways, but the principle is the same.  The principle is far more important than the actual throws, because if you nail down when and how to move, you'll be able to throw practically whenever and however you want.  

As far as I know, judo takes quite some time before you really get into throwing.  If you're not patient and want to get into it quicker and move on from it, wrestling may be your better bet, and they don't spend all that time learning falling and rolling that judo reputedly does.  Again, no judo experience, so that's all conjecture on my part.  

I also haven't tried BJJ, but what seems to be and what actually is could in fact be quite different.


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## Buka

Welcome to Martial Talk, WarriorMonk.

It's hard to suggest things to round out another's game without first knowing the game or it's level.
What do you train, bro?


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## Chris Parker

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Hello all.



Hi there.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> I am new, so please be easy on me.



Hmm… this will be gentle by my reckoning… so take it as it is… 



WarriorMonk7 said:


> I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defence.



Okay. The obvious question (as brought up by Buka) is what you're currently training for "self defence", and why you think it's not sufficient? That can lead us into all kinds of interesting areas regarding what self defence actually is, what the requirements really are (physically and combatively, much less is needed than most think), but we'll start with what your actual training background (past and current) is.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).



Er… okay… and exactly how did you come to that conclusion? I mean, I'm assuming you're then ruling out the sutemi waza, ne waza and so forth, yeah? Including the katame no kata that was one of the very first formalised kata sets that Kano came up with to teach his art? And how does Judo's throwing methods then differ from any other throwing art's methods? Are other arts only able to throw someone so they're kneeling? Or still standing themselves? 



WarriorMonk7 said:


> This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)



Yeah… getting back to what "self defence" actually is… head kicks are largely frowned upon, so… maybe get out of that headspace?



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?



Good question, considering the impression you have so far… 



WarriorMonk7 said:


> 1. Judokas wear tough gis.
> 
> The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?



Judo-ka wear tough gi so they don't rip their work shirts in practice. In an actual application, of course, you'd likely be unconcerned with the state of the other guys clothing. For the record, though, the clothing has no real bearing on "leverage" or "torque" in throwing arts… my arts range from being able to throw someone in armour through to a light t-shirt/no shirt at all… 



WarriorMonk7 said:


> 2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.



Being that close to anyone (in a combative situation/fight) can see you punched in the face… but a proper judo kumi-te grip is actually pretty good defence against being hit. You're controlling both sides of the opponent (both arms), and have quite a good amount of sensitivity built in to "feel" what your opponent is doing and where they're moving.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.



Frankly, good luck elbowing me from a proper grip. On the other hand, elbowing the guy I'm about to throw… that's relatively easy (in other words, you seem rather unaware of the actual position of the arms here, on both sides… of course, judo-ka train to work with their personally preferred grips, so there's no single grip you can define as the only one used in Judo…).



WarriorMonk7 said:


> 3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defence.



Okay….



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo? Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?



So… one of the reasons you're "skeptical" about Judo is that "nowadays (it's) more of a sport than self-defence", but you then look to kickboxing (which is purely a sporting competitive format), muay Thai (a competitive sporting system) and Sanshou/Sanda (a competitive form of Chinese kickboxing) as examples for something better… and then look to them for takedown and throwing methods, even though they are all primarily striking systems with some rudimentary takedowns at best (none in most forms of kickboxing at all)? 



WarriorMonk7 said:


> BTW - please don't recommend BJJ over Judo. This is not a BJJ thread and I think BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.
> 
> (And these defenses are not great. --->
> 
> 
> 
> )



And again, you know all of this based on… what? What experience with BJJ do you have to say it's "silly" for self defence? How are you able to assess the vulnerability of two of the most stable and safest positions (in the context of ground work… which also features pretty well in Judo, by the way… I mean… you are aware of where BJJ comes from, yeah?) in ground fighting? Or the viability of what are honestly pretty decent actions in the clip you posted?



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Let me know what you think!!



I'll be honest. What I think is that you have no experience with Judo… no experience with BJJ… no experience with much of the realities of fighting, self defence, and more… but, based on what you think you know (which isn't much), you've made up your own mind already. So, let's take it back a step or three.

You mention that you are looking to "round out your game for self defence"… okay. What exactly are you looking for? Why were you looking at Judo in the first place? Once we look at that, then we might be able to get somewhere… but right now, you're already convinced of what you think you know, and have reasoned your way to whatever conclusion you had come up with. And that means you'll have two options… either continue to believe what you think you know, and justify your perceptions the way you have… in which case nothing we say can or will change that… or you recognise that you're coming from a position where you're not quite really in a position to make such an assessment, and we can look at what might suit you best.


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## Bill Mattocks

I'm not going to offer any comments on judo or the other styles mentioned.  But I will offer an observation or two.

_"Hi, folks!  I don't know anything about X, but I was thinking about learning it.  However, I know this fact and that fact and the other thing about that style I know nothing about, so I'm rejecting it.  Argue me out of it.  And while you're at it, recommend a style for me that isn't style Y, which is also a style I know nothing about except that I know all about it and I don't like it.  Maybe style Z, except that even though I know nothing about that, I also have objections to it based on the things I think maybe I heard a guy say once.  And here's some videos that prove all of that."_​
Now tell me why I'd want to get involved in that.  There's no room in your question for an answer that didn't come from your framework of error.


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## Tony Dismukes

WarriorMonk7 said:


> I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.



What do you currently train in, that you feel needs rounding out?

(I'm going to, for now, avoid the whole derail of what you mean by "self-defense", since that opens up a great big can of worms that we've discussed at length on this forum in multiple threads.)



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo.



Judo has plenty of applicability for fighting in a non-sport context. It is most commonly taught in a sport setting, so you need to make some adjustments if you want to use it in a context where people might be punching you. Those adjustments are relatively simple though, especially if you have some striking experience to work with.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?



Muay Thai has a better takedown game than most people realize. However it's hard to find places outside of Thailand where that aspect of the art is taught and trained to any great depth. Not saying they don't exist, but if you randomly select a Muay Thai gym in whatever city you happen to live in, the statistical odds are that they won't emphasize that part of the curriculum.

As far as Sanda/Sanshou goes, unless you live in certain areas you may have a hard time finding a school which teaches it at all, let alone one that is good with the takedowns.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.


Hah! No. Just, no. If you live anywhere near where I'm at, you are welcome to come by the gym and try to groin shot me from under my mount or in my guard. If you can accomplish anything more than mildly annoying me with the attempt, I will give you $50.

If you're not in the vicinity of Lexington, talk to an experienced BJJ practitioner in your area and ask them to show you what happened if you try to hit their groin from those positions. Fair warning - get their agreement before trying the experiment. If you try to pull that as a surprise move while rolling you may end up seriously hurt.


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## Ironbear24

Judo is a lot of fun but it won't take you "rounded" as you put it. Judo typically has zero strikes involved and doesn't often teach how to block strikes. It is essentially all take downs and wrestling techniques. 

This is why Judo is often along side another art, but this is not to say Judo alone is bad. Judo alone can be used to protect yourself against many types of attackers. Just close the distance and make that takedown count. A slam to the concrete will hurt anyone.


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## Dirty Dog

Ironbear24 said:


> Judo is a lot of fun but it won't take you "rounded" as you put it. Judo typically has zero strikes involved and doesn't often teach how to block strikes. It is essentially all take downs and wrestling techniques.



Oh my. You've not really done any extensive training in Judo, have you?

I'm just going to sit over here, and see what, say, @elder999 has to say...


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## kuniggety

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Okay then. Can you elaborate as to why groin shots would not would in BJJ?
> 
> Please be specific.



Reread my post. I did. It's anatomically impossible to punch someone in the testicles from those positions.


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## Ironbear24

Dirty Dog said:


> Oh my. You've not really done any extensive training in Judo, have you?
> 
> I'm just going to sit over here, and see what, say, @elder999 has to say...



I have never been to a dojo that teaches exclusively only Judo. My Judo experience comes from kenpo where the sifu showed both styles together. If I ever say anything stupid I welcome all to come correct me so I no longer say stupid things.

Or the least, I will say stupid things less often .


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## Ironbear24

BJJ and JJ is good for self defense but keep in mind that this is not ideal for many street situations. If you are in a bar do you want to take the attacker to the floor? That handles him but what about the guys girlfriend and his two other friends?

I guarantee you they are going to be hitting you while you have the other guy on the floor or any sort of hold. The style is great at one on one vs someone who has minimal or no grappling experience, if they know good escapes and have a history of a grappling art than you could be in serious trouble if you are not excellent at it.


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## Dirty Dog

Ironbear24 said:


> I have never been to a dojo that teaches exclusively only Judo. My Judo experience comes from kenpo where the sifu showed both styles together. If I ever say anything stupid I welcome all to come correct me so I no longer say stupid things.
> 
> Or the least, I will say stupid things less often .



Less often is all most of us can hope for.

It's just one of those things that gets brought up periodically. People who have never trained Judo assume that because Judo, as used in tournaments, doesn't involve strikes that Judo, as it is taught, doesn't include strikes.


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## Bill Mattocks

> Or the least, I will say stupid things less often .



Something I also struggle with daily.  As much as I have a nasty tendency to pounce on things I see others do, so to am I deserving of a good pummeling for similar things myself.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> BJJ and JJ is good for self defense but keep in mind that this is not ideal for many street situations. If you are in a bar do you want to take the attacker to the floor? That handles him but what about the guys girlfriend and his two other friends?



Self defense based Bjj includes throws, chokes, and locks where you're not following your assailant to the ground. Additionally, those throws utilize the body's natural handles instead of reliance on lapels and sleeves. Judo's sport base will give you ridiculous stamina, balance, and serious gripping power. It'll also teach you how to fall, which can be critical in a nasty situation.

There are few things worse to go up against than a person who is highly trained in both Judo and Bjj.



> I guarantee you they are going to be hitting you while you have the other guy on the floor or any sort of hold.



And what if he is on top of you and you have zero ground fighting experience?


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## Hanzou

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Okay then. Can you elaborate as to why groin shots would not would in BJJ?
> 
> Please be specific.



Groin shots while in (closed) Guard? 

Simply put, your posture is broken, and you're completely in the Bjj exponent's territory. Or as we say in my gym "You f______ed" up a long time ago!". You're going to have to fight in order to restore your posture, and that Bjj exponent can attack you at any point while you're trying to restore that posture. Assuming that you have no clue what you're doing since you view Bjj as "silly", you're going to be opening yourself up to locks, sweeps, and chokes without even realizing it.

Considering that this person was good enough to get you into closed guard, there's a pretty good chance that they're going to be good enough to destroy you before you get the first groin strike off.


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## elder999

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?
> 
> 1. Judokas wear tough gis.
> 
> The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?



I've thrown people wearing T-shirts. I've thrown people wearing no shirt .I've thrown people wearing sports coats or suits.

Most judo throws will work without the judogi; with the right training and practice, this concern of yours  is not valid.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> 2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.
> 
> Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.



Erm...practice certainly does. Competition can. The _kumikata_ position is not necessary to perform judo throws and locks, and most of the throws work better as a defense against a strike, With the right training and practice, this concern of yours is not valid.




WarriorMonk7 said:


> 3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.
> 
> -
> 
> Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo?kl;'



This is a valid concern: what is taught as judo is sometimes so geared towards competition that  it's more combative aspects are lost,

Fact is, most of the throws have a strike that is integral to them-though they are not always taught this way.





WarriorMonk7 said:


> Let me know what you think!!



I think you should train more.


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## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Self defense based Bjj includes throws, chokes, and locks where you're not following your assailant to the ground. Additionally, those throws utilize the body's natural handles instead of reliance on lapels and sleeves. Judo's sport base will give you ridiculous stamina, balance, and serious gripping power. It'll also teach you how to fall, which can be critical in a nasty situation.
> 
> There are few things worse to go up against than a person who is highly trained in both Judo and Bjj.
> 
> 
> 
> And what if he is on top of you and you have zero ground fighting experience?



Then you die. My point is during the time you will grappling with someone somebody else can hit you or grab you. Unless you happen to be lighting fast and do your breaks, joint locks very quickly.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> Then you die.



Then I think we both can agree that getting a few lump and bruises is more preferable to death.



> My point is during the time you will grappling with someone somebody else can hit you or grab you. Unless you happen to be lighting fast and do your breaks, joint locks very quickly.



You don't need to be _lightning fast_, just fast enough to get out of a nasty situation. Further, you don't need chokes and locks to do the job, oftentimes a sweep will do, and will get you into a more favorable position.


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## Ironbear24

So you sweep the guy. Then what? He can still get back up.


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## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> So you sweep the guy. Then what? He can still get back up.



Sweep him into mount and then do what the situation requires. Punish them or escape, it's your choice.


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## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> Sweep him into mount and then do what the situation requires. Punish them or escape, it's your choice.



Ok so going back to the OP. Yes Judo us good for self defense. So is BJJ. Me and hanzo just argue because we have different philosophies when it comes to self defense but both work given that you are diligent enough to practice often.


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## Buka

"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain

Same holds true for fighting Judokas and BJJers when all that's been done to prepare is theorize incorrectly.


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## elder999

Ironbear24 said:


> Judo is a lot of fun but it won't take you "rounded" as you put it. Judo typically has zero strikes involved and doesn't often teach how to block strikes. It is essentially all take downs and wrestling techniques.
> 
> This is why Judo is often along side another art, but this is not to say Judo alone is bad. Judo alone can be used to protect yourself against many types of attackers. Just close the distance and make that takedown count. A slam to the concrete will hurt anyone.


As I've said before, there's a strike in almost every throw. The throw also, typically, has a deflection or block for a strike-_if self-defense is taught._

The "takedown" works better against someone attacking, rather than as an attack itself, though it can be used that way, especially as a follow-up to a strike.


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## lklawson

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I am new, so please be easy on me.
> 
> I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.
> 
> I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).
> 
> This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)
> 
> Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?
> 
> 1. Judokas wear tough gis.
> 
> The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?
> 
> 2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.
> 
> Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.
> 
> 3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.


Worked pretty good for Gene LeBell



> Let me know what you think!!


I think you should do Judo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JR 137

No strikes in Judo?  I guess you've never seen Austin Powers.


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## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> Then you die. My point is during the time you will grappling with someone somebody else can hit you or grab you. Unless you happen to be lighting fast and do your breaks, joint locks very quickly.



Not really. Grappling is more cumulative than striking due to positional dominance. So I hit you,you can hit me. This happens until the better hitter makes the other guy falls over.

I clinch. You can't really hit me. But I can more easily take you down. I take you down you have even less chance to hit me. And so on.

So it is less of a race to get an arm lock and more of a path towards control.

By the way if you fight in a gi it is even harder to escape grappling because the clothing creates many more control points. S if you do striking vs grappling you would be better off cutting your sleeves off or something.


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## Skullpunch

Judo is awesome, I'll address your concerns one by one.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?
> 
> 1. Judokas wear tough gis.
> 
> The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?
> 
> 2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.
> 
> Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.
> 
> 3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.
> 
> -
> 
> Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo? Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW - please don't recommend BJJ over Judo. This is not a BJJ thread and I think BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.
> 
> (And these defenses are not great. --->
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Let me know what you think!!



1.  Clothes can be used for judo throws too.  They can be grabbed and used as levers - not over and over again for years like a judo gi but you only need one.  Additionally, various judo throws can work very well without the gi - O Goshi, Harai Goshi, Osoto Gari, Sukui Nage, morote gari, ushiro goshi, and a few others have quite a high success rate from various body lock positions and can be devastating on a hard surface.  Adaptibility is key, and if you have any no gi grappling schools close by you can become a boss at b1tch tossing people both with and without the gi.  This can double up from the clinch if your opponent/attacker is wearing a thin t-shirt as you can combine both bodylock and clothing grips from over/under and get some tremendous leverage into a takedown.

2.  I think you're overestimating the amount of power your average attacker can generate from this range, add to that the fact that from here it will most likely be the judo guy controlling the distance - and disrupting your opponent's balance (good luck planting your feet and pivoting into a power shot while a strong clincher is manipulating your body weight) and also if you worry too much about throwing punches and too little about defending the takedown you're gonna get slammed.  Unless you're trying to collar grip Mike Tyson, chances of you getting hurt by punches from this position are low as long as you don't completely suck.  Also - see # 1, the body lock positions, those completely negate the punching fear.

Also consider the fact that even professional boxers end up stuck in clinches even when they have no intention of going there - it just happens.  On the street, there's a very good chance that an aggressive attacker will either initiate a clinch himself or accidentally run into one while trying to windmill on you, it happens and a strong judoka has a huge advantage from here.

3.  This is also a strength in many ways.  The fact that you're not dribbling each other's brains in judo means you can practice full throttle almost everyday without losing an eye or all of your brain cells - this type of training is absent with many techniques in a style like, say, Krav Maga, and while those techniques can be effective, they would be far, FAR more effective if you could practice them full force against an opponent who is resisting full force.  This type of training is essential for a martial artist and judo gives you that.

Also, your concerns regarding bjj are unfounded.  If groin strikes were all it took to beat bjj it would have gotten ran the fukk over by everything back in the style vs. style days of NHB, but we all know that didn't happen.  Bjj is legit, both for sport and self-defense.  Your choice if you do it or not but it will only make you a better martial artist if you do.


----------



## Skullpunch

Ironbear24 said:


> Then you die. My point is during the time you will grappling with someone somebody else can hit you or grab you. Unless you happen to be lighting fast and do your breaks, joint locks very quickly.



A bjj school who's belts are worth anything will be teaching you enough nage-waza to where you can easily ragdoll an attacker standing without ever going to the ground if need be.  It all depends on the school, some of them are 100% pure sport where all of your grappling starts on your knees and you seldom, if ever do anything else.  I agree with you when it comes to those, but there are others that actually teach the right way, with judo and wrestling takedowns included in the cirriculum.  In fact, Robson Moura's place has a day out of the week where his students literally do zero ground grappling and nothing but throws and takedowns.  This approach has self defense in mind, as the situation you describe is one where you're probably better off slamming your attacker as you remain standing ready for his accomplice to jump in.


----------



## JR 137

Skullpunch said:


> This approach has self defense in mind, as the situation you describe is one where you're probably better off slamming your attacker as you remain standing ready for his accomplice to jump in.



If there's on place I want to be in a fight, it's on my feet with my opponent on the ground.  Sidewalks and streets will always hit so much harder than I ever will if I throw my opponent right.

I don't think it matters if it's wrestling, judo or BJJ throwing.   It's all about balance, weight shifting, how to get into throwing position, and how to set it up.  The principles are the same across the board, from what I've seen.  If you have no experience in a throwing art, the throws look different; if you have experience in one of them, they pretty much look like variations of each other and are easily understood as to how they actually work and the important points that'll make them work.


----------



## EvanWinther

You can definitely get your attacker into a position where he can't hit you. Also Judo is so fun so I'd recommend it


----------



## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> Not really. Grappling is more cumulative than striking due to positional dominance. So I hit you,you can hit me. This happens until the better hitter makes the other guy falls over.
> 
> I clinch. You can't really hit me. But I can more easily take you down. I take you down you have even less chance to hit me. And so on.
> 
> So it is less of a race to get an arm lock and more of a path towards control.
> 
> By the way if you fight in a gi it is even harder to escape grappling because the clothing creates many more control points. S if you do striking vs grappling you would be better off cutting your sleeves off or something.



I don't  understand what you mean by grappling is more cumulative. Many styles can strike while in a clinch, my sifu has for example been teaching us to strike while practically in the opponent's face, you don't need a ton of room to throw a good strike. I was skeptical about this then he showed me, he had me on the floor clutching my sides and I have the bruises to prove it.

It also doesn't take much to take down an attacker with strikes alone. It's also less risky to yourself because you won't be exposing yourself as much as if you were to tangle with the someone.


----------



## drop bear

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't  understand what you mean by grappling is more cumulative. Many styles can strike while in a clinch, my sifu has for example been teaching us to strike while practically in the opponent's face, you don't need a ton of room to throw a good strike. I was skeptical about this then he showed me, he had me on the floor clutching my sides and I have the bruises to prove it.
> 
> It also doesn't take much to take down an attacker with strikes alone. It's also less risky to yourself because you won't be exposing yourself as much as if you were to tangle with the someone.



Good striking in the clinch means good clinching same as good striking on the ground.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, WarriorMonk.
> 
> It's hard to suggest things to round out another's game without first knowing the game or it's level.
> What do you train, bro?


Thai boxing and wrestling. Sorry.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Chris Parker said:


> Hi there.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm… this will be gentle by my reckoning… so take it as it is…
> 
> 
> 
> Okay. The obvious question (as brought up by Buka) is what you're currently training for "self defence", and why you think it's not sufficient? That can lead us into all kinds of interesting areas regarding what self defence actually is, what the requirements really are (physically and combatively, much less is needed than most think), but we'll start with what your actual training background (past and current) is.
> 
> 
> 
> Er… okay… and exactly how did you come to that conclusion? I mean, I'm assuming you're then ruling out the sutemi waza, ne waza and so forth, yeah? Including the katame no kata that was one of the very first formalised kata sets that Kano came up with to teach his art? And how does Judo's throwing methods then differ from any other throwing art's methods? Are other arts only able to throw someone so they're kneeling? Or still standing themselves?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah… getting back to what "self defence" actually is… head kicks are largely frowned upon, so… maybe get out of that headspace?
> 
> 
> 
> Good question, considering the impression you have so far…
> 
> 
> 
> Judo-ka wear tough gi so they don't rip their work shirts in practice. In an actual application, of course, you'd likely be unconcerned with the state of the other guys clothing. For the record, though, the clothing has no real bearing on "leverage" or "torque" in throwing arts… my arts range from being able to throw someone in armour through to a light t-shirt/no shirt at all…
> 
> 
> 
> Being that close to anyone (in a combative situation/fight) can see you punched in the face… but a proper judo kumi-te grip is actually pretty good defence against being hit. You're controlling both sides of the opponent (both arms), and have quite a good amount of sensitivity built in to "feel" what your opponent is doing and where they're moving.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, good luck elbowing me from a proper grip. On the other hand, elbowing the guy I'm about to throw… that's relatively easy (in other words, you seem rather unaware of the actual position of the arms here, on both sides… of course, judo-ka train to work with their personally preferred grips, so there's no single grip you can define as the only one used in Judo…).
> 
> 
> 
> Okay….
> 
> 
> 
> So… one of the reasons you're "skeptical" about Judo is that "nowadays (it's) more of a sport than self-defence", but you then look to kickboxing (which is purely a sporting competitive format), muay Thai (a competitive sporting system) and Sanshou/Sanda (a competitive form of Chinese kickboxing) as examples for something better… and then look to them for takedown and throwing methods, even though they are all primarily striking systems with some rudimentary takedowns at best (none in most forms of kickboxing at all)?
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you know all of this based on… what? What experience with BJJ do you have to say it's "silly" for self defence? How are you able to assess the vulnerability of two of the most stable and safest positions (in the context of ground work… which also features pretty well in Judo, by the way… I mean… you are aware of where BJJ comes from, yeah?) in ground fighting? Or the viability of what are honestly pretty decent actions in the clip you posted?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be honest. What I think is that you have no experience with Judo… no experience with BJJ… no experience with much of the realities of fighting, self defence, and more… but, based on what you think you know (which isn't much), you've made up your own mind already. So, let's take it back a step or three.
> 
> You mention that you are looking to "round out your game for self defence"… okay. What exactly are you looking for? Why were you looking at Judo in the first place? Once we look at that, then we might be able to get somewhere… but right now, you're already convinced of what you think you know, and have reasoned your way to whatever conclusion you had come up with. And that means you'll have two options… either continue to believe what you think you know, and justify your perceptions the way you have… in which case nothing we say can or will change that… or you recognise that you're coming from a position where you're not quite really in a position to make such an assessment, and we can look at what might suit you best.


Thank you for your reply!

Yes - I am naturally skeptical. Lol. I did not want to offend practitioners of BJJ by the way. I did BJJ for a year and would always laugh when someone would try to pull guard on me with their genitals in the air.

One punch and it would be over.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Tony Dismukes said:


> What do you currently train in, that you feel needs rounding out?
> 
> (I'm going to, for now, avoid the whole derail of what you mean by "self-defense", since that opens up a great big can of worms that we've discussed at length on this forum in multiple threads.)
> 
> 
> 
> Judo has plenty of applicability for fighting in a non-sport context. It is most commonly taught in a sport setting, so you need to make some adjustments if you want to use it in a context where people might be punching you. Those adjustments are relatively simple though, especially if you have some striking experience to work with.
> 
> 
> 
> Muay Thai has a better takedown game than most people realize. However it's hard to find places outside of Thailand where that aspect of the art is taught and trained to any great depth. Not saying they don't exist, but if you randomly select a Muay Thai gym in whatever city you happen to live in, the statistical odds are that they won't emphasize that part of the curriculum.
> 
> As far as Sanda/Sanshou goes, unless you live in certain areas you may have a hard time finding a school which teaches it at all, let alone one that is good with the takedowns.
> 
> 
> Hah! No. Just, no. If you live anywhere near where I'm at, you are welcome to come by the gym and try to groin shot me from under my mount or in my guard. If you can accomplish anything more than mildly annoying me with the attempt, I will give you $50.
> 
> If you're not in the vicinity of Lexington, talk to an experienced BJJ practitioner in your area and ask them to show you what happened if you try to hit their groin from those positions. Fair warning - get their agreement before trying the experiment. If you try to pull that as a surprise move while rolling you may end up seriously hurt.


Thanks man!

Can you explain - specifically - how you would protect your groin from the guard or mount? I'm very curious.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

kuniggety said:


> Reread my post. I did. It's anatomically impossible to punch someone in the testicles from those positions.


Trust that if someone is running on a massive shot of adrenaline and beating down on you inside your guard, he will get to your testicles if he wants to hurt you.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Hanzou said:


> Groin shots while in (closed) Guard?
> 
> Simply put, your posture is broken, and you're completely in the Bjj exponent's territory. Or as we say in my gym "You f______ed" up a long time ago!". You're going to have to fight in order to restore your posture, and that Bjj exponent can attack you at any point while you're trying to restore that posture. Assuming that you have no clue what you're doing since you view Bjj as "silly", you're going to be opening yourself up to locks, sweeps, and chokes without even realizing it.
> 
> Considering that this person was good enough to get you into closed guard, there's a pretty good chance that they're going to be good enough to destroy you before you get the first groin strike off.


Nope. Did BJJ for a year. I know, I know - a year is nothing.

I was not impressed with it, although it works fabulously well in an octagon with rules. Rules, gentlemen.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

elder999 said:


> I've thrown people wearing T-shirts. I've thrown people wearing no shirt .I've thrown people wearing sports coats or suits.
> 
> Most judo throws will work without the judogi; with the right training and practice, this concern of yours  is not valid.
> 
> 
> 
> Erm...practice certainly does. Competition can. The _kumikata_ position is not necessary to perform judo throws and locks, and most of the throws work better as a defense against a strike, With the right training and practice, this concern of yours is not valid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a valid concern: what is taught as judo is sometimes so geared towards competition that  it's more combative aspects are lost,
> 
> Fact is, most of the throws have a strike that is integral to them-though they are not always taught this way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you should train more.


Thanks!!


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Hanzou said:


> Sweep him into mount and then do what the situation requires. Punish them or escape, it's your choice.


Mount me and I will elbow you in the groin. j/k. ; )


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Skullpunch said:


> A bjj school who's belts are worth anything will be teaching you enough nage-waza to where you can easily ragdoll an attacker standing without ever going to the ground if need be.  It all depends on the school, some of them are 100% pure sport where *all of your grappling starts on your knees and you seldom, if ever do anything else.  I agree with you when it comes to those*, but there are others that actually teach the right way, with judo and wrestling takedowns included in the cirriculum.  In fact, Robson Moura's place has a day out of the week where his students literally do zero ground grappling and nothing but throws and takedowns.  This approach has self defense in mind, as the situation you describe is one where you're probably better off slamming your attacker as you remain standing ready for his accomplice to jump in.


Thanks!!


----------



## Hanzou

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Mount me and I will elbow you in the groin. j/k. ; )



An elbow to my groin while I'm in mount?







Okay....... 

A year in Bjj eh?


----------



## MAfreak

one of those topics... without mentioning names, it happens alot that internet people, who aren't very well trained or informed in martial arts (which is obvious in other topics by them) act up in the comments in pointless discussions.
guys, don't talk, go train.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Depends on how Judo is taught.  It may be worth noting that Dermott 'Patt' O'Neill of WWII combatives fame was, at the time (WWII era) the highest ranked non-Japanese Judo player in the world.  He stated, rather candidly, that sport Judo was useless in combat unless the enemy was wearing a gi and restricting themselves to the same set of rules.  This needs to be considered carefully.  Judo could be a complete waste of time or it could be a valuable skill set.  The difference is in the way it is taught.  Same with any martial art.  If training is solely against a single opponent, wearing specific clothing, obeying specific rules, observing specific restrictions then as far as SD is concerned, it's a waste of time and is actually a detriment to training.  On the other hand, if the basics are taught in line with differing clothing (or no clothing), non-adherence to a specific rule set or restrictions (read:  you can deck the guy or knee his groin as well as throw him) then it's a nice skill set to have.  

All depends on the methodology of training as well as the skill and experience of the instructor.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> An elbow to my groin while I'm in mount?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.......
> 
> A year in Bjj eh?



Why not?  I've seen it done and it worked well.  Lots of things can be done to someone mounting you if you're not confined to a rule set and don't mind damaging the attacker.  Of course I'm referring to a real world altercation and not the controlled environment of rule enforced sporting event.


----------



## Skullpunch

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Nope. Did BJJ for a year. I know, I know - a year is nothing.
> 
> I was not impressed with it, although it works fabulously well in an octagon with rules. Rules, gentlemen.





Kong Soo Do said:


> Why not?  I've seen it done and it worked well.  Lots of things can be done to someone mounting you if you're not confined to a rule set and don't mind damaging the attacker.  Of course I'm referring to a real world altercation and the controlled environment of rule enforced sporting event.



A lot of you seem to forget that the origin of the UFC was not a controlled environment governed by the Nevada State Athletic Commission, but it has its roots in bare knuckle Vale Tudo, where groin strikes and eye gouges and such were allowed.  Bjj was still a top tier art and I've seen exactly zero instances of effective strikes to the groin being utilized from the mount bottom position.  I'm sure it's theoretically possible, but percentage wise you're better off knowing how to actually fight on the ground.  If you get good enough at that then maybe you actually do have half a chance of pulling off one of these mount bottom groin attacks.

From the beginning of Vale Tudo up until about UFC 12, groin attacks were allowed.  In fact, a fight at UFC 4 was won with groin strikes but it sure as fukk wasn't from the mount bottom - the guy who won took his opponent down and landed directly in side mount and from there he just held him down and starting wailing on his dick until he tapped out.  That's how groin attacks can be effectively utilized in a real fight, or knees from the clinch standing or inside leg kicks.  But expecting to escape from mount bottom when attacking the groin is your primary (or only) weapon is laughable and if you think competitive MMA/NHB fights fail to illustrate this because of rules and regulations then you need to brush up on your history.

Modern MMA style competition has been around since about 1920.  80% of that time has been no rules, keep that in mind before we try to pull this "xxx martial art is only effective in MMA because of rules" nonsense.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Skullpunch said:


> A lot of you seem to forget that the origin of the UFC was not a controlled environment governed by the Nevada State Athletic Commission, but it has its roots in bare knuckle Vale Tudo, where groin strikes and eye gouges and such were allowed.  Bjj was still a top tier art and I've seen exactly zero instances of effective strikes to the groin being utilized from the mount bottom position.  I'm sure it's theoretically possible, but percentage wise you're better off knowing how to actually fight on the ground.  If you get good enough at that then maybe you actually do have half a chance of pulling off one of these mount bottom groin attacks.
> 
> From the beginning of Vale Tudo up until about UFC 12, groin attacks were allowed.  In fact, a fight at UFC 4 was won with groin strikes but it sure as fukk wasn't from the mount bottom - the guy who won took his opponent down and landed directly in side mount and from there he just held him down and starting wailing on his dick until he tapped out.  That's how groin attacks can be effectively utilized in a real fight, or knees from the clinch standing or inside leg kicks.  But expecting to escape from mount bottom when attacking the groin is your primary (or only) weapon is laughable and if you think competitive MMA/NHB fights fail to illustrate this because of rules and regulations then you need to brush up on your history.
> 
> Modern MMA style competition has been around since about 1920.  80% of that time has been no rules, keep that in mind before we try to pull this "xxx martial art is only effective in MMA because of rules" nonsense.



Your reasoning is flawed in regards to the UFC.  Yes, in the beginning it has less rules than the current version. But it still had rules and it was still an artificial/controlled environment.  And those MMA players came from backgrounds where more often than not a specific rule set was enforced (which did not include gouging out an eye or crushing the testicles).  Additionally, many of the stand up fighters back then that initially competed in the UFC had little to no grappling experience OR little to no experience against a grappler.   

And this line of discussion isn't limited to just grabbing/striking/crushing the testicles or gouging out an eye or biting off the ear.  It can encompass defense against an edged or improvised weapon by the person being mounted.  Any one that knows or has trained with Fred Crevello knows what the person on the bottom can do against the person on top IF they know what to do and aren't shy about doing it.  Doesn't give the guy on the bottom an autokill, but it makes sure the guy on top doesn't have an autokill either.  As with anything, he who gets there first with the most wins.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> Why not?



Because your elbows stop at your rib cage, and the groin of the person on top of you is lower than that.

I also question the wisdom of going for a strike to the groin when someone is on top of you punching and elbowing you in the face.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> Because your elbows stop at your rib cage, and the groin of the person on top of you is lower than that.



That depends upon the position taken by the person mounting.  Obviously if they are too far back you look for another option.  



Hanzou said:


> I also question the wisdom of going for an groin strike to the groin when someone is on top of you punching and elbowing you in the face



Wisdom dictates that you flow with the attack to identify any and all openings for defense.  This could be striking the groin.  It could be making the attempt to reach the groin to crush the testicles.  It could be grabbing and biting a chunk out of the attacker's arm or ear or nose.  It could be making the attempt to gouge the eye or strike the throat.  Wisdom dictates that all of these (and other things) are viable options to be exploited if/when the opportunity presents itself.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Kong Soo Do said:


> Your reasoning is flawed in regards to the UFC.  Yes, in the beginning it has less rules than the current version. But it still had rules and it was still an artificial/controlled environment.  And those MMA players came from backgrounds where more often than not a specific rule set was enforced (which did not include gouging out an eye or crushing the testicles).  Additionally, many of the stand up fighters back then that initially competed in the UFC had little to no grappling experience OR little to no experience against a grappler.
> 
> And this line of discussion isn't limited to just grabbing/striking/crushing the testicles or gouging out an eye or biting off the ear.  It can encompass defense against an edged or improvised weapon by the person being mounted.  Any one that knows or has trained with Fred Crevello knows what the person on the bottom can do against the person on top IF they know what to do and aren't shy about doing it.  Doesn't give the guy on the bottom an autokill, but it makes sure the guy on top doesn't have an autokill either.  As with anything, he who gets there first with the most wins.


Sorry, gentlemen.

I have a lot of respect for BJJ, but I am going to agree with Kong Soo Do on this one.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Hanzou said:


> An elbow to my groin while I'm in mount?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.......
> 
> A year in Bjj eh?


Yes - a year. Not much.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

MAfreak said:


> one of those topics... without mentioning names, it happens alot that internet people, who aren't very well trained or informed in martial arts (which is obvious in other topics by them) act up in the comments in pointless discussions.
> guys, *don't talk, go train*.



You realize this forum is called "martialtalk," right?  -_-


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Hanzou said:


> Because your elbows stop at your rib cage, and the groin of the person on top of you is lower than that.
> 
> I also question the wisdom of going for a strike to the groin when someone is on top of you punching and elbowing you in the face.


Whatever tool is available.

Elbow, hammer fist, jab, palm heel - whatever.


----------



## kuniggety

I wonder how many of you arguing for striking the groin from the ground have actually been mounted and had that person start elbowing you and pounding you in the face like Hanzou mentioned? If you're seriously trying to strike back and not control or sweep the person on top then you're gonna get hurt real bad really fast. To think you can disable a person on top of you with any kind of strike from the bottom is pure folly/fantasy.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

kuniggety said:


> I wonder how many of you arguing for striking the groin from the ground have actually been mounted and had that person start elbowing you and pounding you in the face like Hanzou mentioned? If you're seriously trying to strike back and not control or sweep the person on top then you're gonna get hurt real bad really fast. To think you can disable a person on top of you with any kind of strike from the bottom is *pure folly/fantasy*.


Pure fantasy?

Lol - it can be done. Also spoke with two Krav Maga instructors and this is one of their methods of dealing with attackers when mounted. Sounds like common sense to me. -_-


----------



## kuniggety

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Pure fantasy?
> 
> Lol - it can be done. Also spoke with two Krav Maga instructors and this is one of their methods of dealing with attackers when mounted. Sounds like common sense to me. -_-


After about the second elbow to the face it will be lights out for you, whether or not you even manage to force your hand to the groin and grab the testicles. Btw, KM is not known for its ground defenses.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

kuniggety said:


> After about the second elbow to the face it will be lights out for you, whether or not you even manage to force your hand to the groin and grab the testicles. Btw, KM is not known for its ground defenses.


2nd elbow? Doubt it. Sorry. = /

And it Krav they don't grab your testicles. They aim the point of their elbows (olecranon) towards their mounted opponent to protect their face, since that essentially puts your head into a protective "cage." What follows are short but powerful strikes to the groin of the mounted opponent to either prepare for a sweep or discourage the mounted opponent from attacking you.


----------



## Buka

A lot of things _can_ be done, sometimes. But it ain't the way to go. 

I'm not a very good grappler, but I've spent years grappling, and I'm a lightweight, so I end up in bottom position so often I've thought of using it as a permanent, legal address. Striking isn't a good way to go when mounted. 

However, if you're in bottom position and have full guard - now you're talking strikes, baby!


----------



## Kong Soo Do

kuniggety said:


> I wonder how many of you arguing for striking the groin from the ground have actually been mounted and had that person start elbowing you and pounding you in the face like Hanzou mentioned?



I have.  I won.  Additionally, being an instructor in the fifth largest LE agency in my state gives me access to uses-of-force beyond the ones I've personally been involved in.  This includes video as well as after-action reports.  On top of this we have a regional training center that I've been an adjunct instructor at since the 90's.  This gives me access to other agencies in this part of the state.  

No one can say 'you can't effectively strike the groin' because it's been done.

No one can say 'grabbing the testicles doesn't work' because it's been done.

No one can say 'gouging out an eye or biting doesn't work' because it's been done.

There are no absolutes in self defense.  What works one time may not work another time.  I've had a report of an elderly woman mounted by a young would-be rapist grabbing and crushing his testicles to the point he was subdued despite her being repeatedly struck in the head and upper torso.  I've also seen six Deputies try to take down one perp on drugs who shrugged off repeated groin strikes like it was nothing.  

Being mounted is not a death sentence.  It isn't an autokill for the person on top.  And it doesn't mean that the person on the bottom gives up without exploiting any/every means of disabling the attacker and regaining their feet.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Kong Soo Do said:


> I have.  I won.  Additionally, being an instructor in the fifth largest LE agency in my state gives me access to uses-of-force beyond the ones I've personally been involved in.  This includes video as well as after-action reports.  On top of this we have a regional training center that I've been an adjunct instructor at since the 90's.  This gives me access to other agencies in this part of the state.
> 
> No one can say 'you can't effectively strike the groin' because it's been done.
> 
> No one can say 'grabbing the testicles doesn't work' because it's been done.
> 
> No one can say 'gouging out an eye or biting doesn't work' because it's been done.
> 
> There are no absolutes in self defense.  What works one time may not work another time.  I've had a report of an elderly woman mounted by a young would-be rapist grabbing and crushing his testicles to the point he was subdued despite her being repeatedly struck in the head and upper torso.  I've also seen six Deputies try to take down one perp on drugs who shrugged off repeated groin strikes like it was nothing.
> 
> Being mounted is not a death sentence.  It isn't an autokill for the person on top.  And it doesn't mean that the person on the bottom gives up without exploiting any/every means of disabling the attacker and regaining their feet.


Well said.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> That depends upon the position taken by the person mounting.  Obviously if they are too far back you look for another option.



Uh, that's exactly the position shown in the image above. The top person's hips are resting well below the rib line, so the elbow isn't reaching the groin. Further if the person is much larger than you, they're going to be even further down, maybe even to your hip area. Your elbows don't reach that far.




> Wisdom dictates that you flow with the attack to identify any and all openings for defense.  This could be striking the groin.  It could be making the attempt to reach the groin to crush the testicles.  It could be grabbing and biting a chunk out of the attacker's arm or ear or nose.  It could be making the attempt to gouge the eye or strike the throat.  Wisdom dictates that all of these (and other things) are viable options to be exploited if/when the opportunity presents itself.



Wisdom actually dictates that you learn the highest percentage moves to get out of situations. Attempting to grab testicles, reach up to grab their throat or parts of their face, or trying to bite them while they're dropping heavy blows on your head is stuff that untrained people do out of desperation. 

Could it work? Possibly. However, common sense would tell someone to seek out more proven methods to get out of such sticky situations.


----------



## drop bear

WarriorMonk7 said:


> 2nd elbow? Doubt it. Sorry. = /
> 
> And it Krav they don't grab your testicles. They aim the point of their elbows (olecranon) towards their mounted opponent to protect their face, since that essentially puts your head into a protective "cage." What follows are short but powerful strikes to the groin of the mounted opponent to either prepare for a sweep or discourage the mounted opponent from attacking you.



How does elbowing someone in the groin discourage an attack? I would have thought it encouraged one.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Uh, that's exactly the position shown in the image above. The top person's hips are resting well below the rib line, so the elbow isn't reaching the groin. Further if the person is much larger than you, they're going to be even further down, maybe even to your hip area. Your elbows don't reach that far.



I would have thought high mount would be harder to groin attack. Because less swing room.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

drop bear said:


> How does elbowing someone in the groin discourage an attack? I would have thought it encouraged one.


I someone is raining nut jabs on your boys, wouldn't you jump off?


----------



## Hanzou

WarriorMonk7 said:


> 2nd elbow? Doubt it. Sorry. = /
> 
> And it Krav they don't grab your testicles. They aim the point of their elbows (olecranon) towards their mounted opponent to protect their face, since that essentially puts your head into a protective "cage." What follows are short but powerful strikes to the groin of the mounted opponent to either prepare for a sweep or discourage the mounted opponent from attacking you.



I certainly hope your Krav Maga friends inform you that you can bypass that "Cage" defense by simply throwing hook punches to the head. 







However, I guess at that point, you guys will be grabbing the nuts right?


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> I would have thought high mount would be harder to groin attack. Because less swing room.



I would have thought so too, but Kong said that he's actually seen it work, and that he's done it to people himself.

:shrug:


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> Uh, that's exactly the position shown in the image above.



I'm not basing my comments on a single picture.  That is far to limited a perspective.  Mounts come in all forms depending on each persons body size, location of the attack etc.  Using a groin strike to successfully escape may be outside your experience, but it has been done and therefore it can work.  



Hanzou said:


> Wisdom actually dictates that you learn the highest percentage moves to get out of situations. Attempting to grab testicles, reach up to grab their throat or parts of their face, or trying to bite them while they're dropping heavy blows on your head is stuff that untrained people do out of desperation.



No, it's what professionals with more real world experience that you suggest as a possible option to be exploited it applicable to the situation.  



Hanzou said:


> Could it work? Possibly. However, common sense would tell someone to seek out more proven methods to get out of such sticky situations



It can work, that's fairly obvious since people have used it successfully.  However, what would your 'more proven' methods be like?  And, how are you rating them as 'more proven'?  What real world statistical data are you offering that they are 'more proven'?


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I would have thought so too, but Kong said that he's actually seen it work, and that he's done it to people himself.
> 
> :shrug:



An indication of the sort of attacker you get in these life or death street encounters.


----------



## drop bear

WarriorMonk7 said:


> I someone is raining nut jabs on your boys, wouldn't you jump off?



No.  If he is willing to go nut shots i am hanging on harder. Still the safest place for me.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> However, I guess at that point, you guys will be grabbing the nuts right?



Well let's take a look at your video.  First problem...it's a sport match.  You can tell right off since there is a referee standing there and the cool colored logo on the very soft, level, dry mat in the well lit, artificially created and controlled environment.  This means that the guy on the bottom isn't allowed to do any of the things that we've been discussing.  Thus you are arriving at a preconceived idea based on flawed logic and trying to apply it to a scenario that you have no experience with.  

Secondly, let's use some magic and pretend that this is a real fight, in a real parking lot and there are no rules. Just for giggles.  What is the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom uses his knife (or improvised edged weapon) to slash or stab him?  Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom decides not to lay there (like the guy in the video) and arches up which unbalances the guy on top and he smashes his head into the parked car right next to them?  Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom reaches up and grabs one of his arms and takes a bite out of it to the bone?  Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom does pretty much a bunch of different stuff that the guy in your video isn't allowed to do?  

Thirdly, tell the woman that have escaped rape by grabbing testicles that it doesn't work.






This truly heroic woman has a style of command

61 year old Grannie grabs 37 year old Rapist by the balls movie style and kills him with his own knife

Court: Woman crushes rapist’s privates

Man collapses and dies ‘after woman squeezed his testicles during fight’

Kick *** Self Defense: Tell Us Your Stories (or ask a Question) 

Just a few examples.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm not basing my comments on a single picture.



That was the picture you commented on.



> Mounts come in all forms depending on each persons body size, location of the attack etc.  Using a groin strike to successfully escape may be outside your experience, but it has been done and therefore* it can work. *






> *It can work,* that's fairly obvious since people have used it successfully. [/B]



I've just explained why an *elbow strike* to the groin isn't feasible from the bottom of the mounted position. However, if you have some evidence beyond anecdotal experience, please feel free to share.




> However, what would your 'more proven' methods be like?  And, how are you rating them as 'more proven'?  What real world statistical data are you offering that they are 'more proven'?



Bjj mount escapes would be a great start.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> That was the picture you commented on.



No, that was the picture in the post I quoted and commented on.  



Hanzou said:


> I've just explained why an *elbow strike* to the groin isn't feasible from the bottom of the mounted position.



And yet I've done it


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> Bjj mount escapes would be a great start.



Anyone in particular?  You usually have a video to share, how about sharing one or two that you think would work well.


----------



## MAfreak

WarriorMonk7 said:


> You realize this forum is called "martialtalk," right?  -_-


well then "don't talk all day, spend also time on training." just think logical.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> Well let's take a look at your video.  First problem...it's a sport match.  You can tell right off since there is a referee standing there and the cool colored logo on the very soft, level, dry mat in the well lit, artificially created and controlled environment.  This means that the guy on the bottom isn't allowed to do any of the things that we've been discussing.  Thus you are arriving at a preconceived idea based on flawed logic and trying to apply it to a scenario that you have no experience with.



Would you have preferred something like this;






No rules, just the way you like it.




> Secondly, let's use some magic and pretend that this is a real fight, in a real parking lot and there are no rules. Just for giggles.  What is the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom uses his knife (or improvised edged weapon) to slash or stab him?



How is he going to reach for his knife when the guy on top is hitting him in the face?



> Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom decides not to lay there (like the guy in the video) and arches up which unbalances the guy on top and he smashes his head into the parked car right next to them?



Arch your back and chest upwards while someone is sitting on top of it? Really?



> Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom reaches up and grabs one of his arms and takes a bite out of it to the bone?



Reach up, grab the arm, and take a bite that will go all the way to the bone while they're sitting on top of you and striking you in the face?





> Thirdly, tell the woman that have escaped rape by grabbing testicles that it doesn't work.



Where did I say that grabbing the testicles doesn't work? I'm saying that the chances of you striking the testicles while someone is dropping blows on your head is slim. If the assailant is trained, its even slimmer. Further, I'm saying that an elbow strike to the nuts while someone is mounted on you isn't feasible.





> This truly heroic woman has a style of command
> 
> 61 year old Grannie grabs 37 year old Rapist by the balls movie style and kills him with his own knife
> 
> Court: Woman crushes rapist’s privates
> 
> Man collapses and dies ‘after woman squeezed his testicles during fight’
> 
> Kick *** Self Defense: Tell Us Your Stories (or ask a Question)
> 
> Just a few examples.



And none of which is someone performing an elbow strike to the nuts from the bottom of mount.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> Anyone in particular?  You usually have a video to share, how about sharing one or two that you think would work well.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Hanzou said:


> I certainly hope your Krav Maga friends inform you that you can bypass that "Cage" defense by simply throwing hook punches to the head.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, I guess at that point, you guys will be grabbing the nuts right?



Yep. Straight jab into the nuts brother.

Let's see about that ground and pound after a coupla nut shots.


----------



## Hanzou

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Yep. Straight jab into the nuts brother.
> 
> Let's see about that ground and pound after a coupla nut shots.



Okay, I get your game now. I think we're done here.

Feel free to have the last word KSD.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

drop bear said:


> No.  If he is willing to go nut shots i am hanging on harder. Still the safest place for me.


Have you ever been hit in the nuts? Remember what that felt like? Really stop for a second and think about it.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Hanzou said:


> That was the picture you commented on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've just explained why an *elbow strike* to the groin isn't feasible from the bottom of the mounted position. However, if you have some evidence beyond anecdotal experience, please feel free to share.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bjj mount escapes would be a great start.


Dude - can you drop the elbow strikes for a second? It doesn't matter.

Just ram a part of your anatomy into the mounted opponent's testicles and repeat until you have a better option. Doesn't matter if it's a fist or elbow.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> Would you have preferred something like this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No rules, just the way you like it.



Did he try any of the stuff we've been discussing?



Hanzou said:


> How is he going to reach for his knife when the guy on top is hitting him in the face?



You're assuming that the knife wasn't already in his hands.  That's what we call a real world possibility.  Your also assuming that it wasn't that piece of glass or metal shard laying on the ground in that parking lot they're fighting in at the time.  And you've also never seen someone like Fred Crevello at SEPSI put a (rubber) knife out of concealment and go to work on the BJJ guy he LET mount him.  These are elements of SD that you don't have experience with.



Hanzou said:


> Arch your back and chest upwards while someone is sitting on top of it? Really?



Ayep.  Usually associated with other tidbits to assist in the effort.  Could be temporarily trapping the arm or ankle to assist with the off balancing.  We do it all the time in training.  Remember, I'm discussing a fluid, dynamic response not just laying there and making some singular effort.



Hanzou said:


> Reach up, grab the arm, and take a bite that will go all the way to the bone while they're sitting on top of you and striking you in the face?



Ayep.  Seen it done and it wasn't pretty.  Bloody freakin mess.  But it stopped the attacker.  Of course you don't just bite and then sit back and admire your handy work.  As with any defense/counter attack you continue until you've succeeded in whatever it is your trying to do.  

In knife fighting circles (one of the circles I run in) we have something called 'chipping'.  I palm a small edged weapon (small for a whole host of practical reasons).  When you reach out to grab or punch me I cut the back of your hand.  What's a persons natural reaction to being cut and having blood flow?  Grab the injury to stop the bleeding.  That's what I'm waiting for.  I then trap both your hands and slice open your throat.  That's the type of response I'm trying to explain to you.  Solicitation of a prescribed response.  



Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that grabbing the testicles doesn't work? I'm saying that the chances of you striking the testicles while someone is dropping blows on your head is slim. If the assailant is trained, its even slimmer. Further, I'm saying that an elbow strike to the nuts while someone is mounted on you isn't feasible.



You should qualify your opinion with 'in my experience...'.  Which does not limit others who have more experience in a specific area or limit the experiences that they've seen/researched/taught.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


>



We do something similar in training.  But we add other elements, if necessary.  This can include strikes, grabs and bites as appropriate.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

[QUOTE="Hanzou, post: 1764503, member: 31336"
Feel free to have the last word KSD.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.  I've enjoyed it and hopefully passed on something useful to you.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Kong Soo Do said:


> [QUOTE="Hanzou, post: 1764503, member: 31336"
> Feel free to have the last word KSD.



Thanks.  I've enjoyed it and hopefully passed on something useful to you.[/QUOTE]
You did! Thanks!


----------



## Skullpunch

Kong Soo Do said:


> Your reasoning is flawed in regards to the UFC.  Yes, in the beginning it has less rules than the current version. But it still had rules and it was still an artificial/controlled environment.  And those MMA players came from backgrounds where more often than not a specific rule set was enforced (which did not include gouging out an eye or crushing the testicles).



The only rules in the beginning were no biting and no eye-gouging.  Other than that it was about as close to anything goes as they come.  Hell in the vale tudo days biting, eye gouging, and even crowd interference happened all the time.  It was as close to a street fight as you can possibly get in any "style vs style" comparison match up, and bjj was still dominant, it proved its legitimacy then and it continues to prove it now for all the world to see…unlike the “smack the groin from mount bottom to wreck a bjj guy” silliness that TS is on about, where the closest thing to proof anyone can offer is saying “I’ve seen it happen"



			
				Kong Soo Do said:
			
		

> Additionally, many of the stand up fighters back then that initially competed in the UFC had little to no grappling experience OR little to no experience against a grappler.



Which of course means they should've done more wrestling/bjj and maybe then they would've stood a chance.



			
				Kong Soo Do said:
			
		

> And this line of discussion isn't limited to just grabbing/striking/crushing the testicles



Within the context of this thread it actually is limited to that, since TS (who it's pretty obvious by now is a troll btw) apparently thinks that all it takes is a ball smack from mount bottom to wreck a bjj guy.  Go back and read the bottom part of the OP.


----------



## drop bear

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Have you ever been hit in the nuts? Remember what that felt like? Really stop for a second and think about it.



Sorry does fighting hurt?

And yes i have been hit in the groin.  You actually cop a bit doing strait jits transitioning. And if it is a choice between making mount and rolling off after a groin shot. 

Most people make mount.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> You're assuming that the knife wasn't already in his hands. That's what we call a real world possibility. Your also assuming that it wasn't that piece of glass or metal shard laying on the ground in that parking lot they're fighting in at the time. And you've also never seen someone like Fred Crevello at SEPSI put a (rubber) knife out of concealment and go to work on the BJJ guy he LET mount him. These are elements of SD that you don't have experience with.



That is a kind of magic trick though.

I could put a rubber knife in anybodys hands from anywhere against any style and rubber knive will usually win.

So to be specific with a certain style is a bit cheeky.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

drop bear said:


> Sorry does fighting hurt?
> 
> And yes i have been hit in the groin.  You actually cop a bit doing strait jits transitioning. And if it is a choice between making mount and rolling off after a groin shot.
> 
> Most people make mount.


I respect that you would risk testicular damage in a street fight.

I have less courage than you.


----------



## drop bear

WarriorMonk7 said:


> I respect that you would risk testicular damage in a street fight.
> 
> I have less courage than you.



One of the things i have noticed with the krav students we get is they think they are made of glass. 

Sub them out with knee rides and stuff. I have always thought that this idea that every move will kill and break bones works against them mentally a bit.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

drop bear said:


> One of the things i have noticed with the krav students we get is they think they are made of glass.
> 
> Sub them out with knee rides and stuff. I have always thought that this idea that every move will kill and break bones works against them mentally a bit.


Dude - I agree with you 100%, but nut shots change the entire game.

In UFC you get 5 minutes to recover from a half-assed nut shot. C'mon man. Use some common sense.


----------



## drop bear

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Dude - I agree with you 100%, but nut shots change the entire game.
> 
> In UFC you get 5 minutes to recover from a half-assed nut shot. C'mon man. Use some common sense.



In ufc you get a break every five minutes. But that doesn't mean you are going to stop in a street fight.


----------



## Hanzou

Kong Soo Do said:


> Did he try any of the stuff we've been discussing?



No, he wasn't able to because he got knocked out within a matter of seconds. That tends to happen when the back of your skull hits concrete.

That's my point. The bottom of mount is too dangerous to trade blows or go for bites and groin strikes.

If you notice in the Gracie vid the FIRST thing they do is close the distance with a waist grab to remove the danger from the strikes. The next thing they do is break their adversary's posture in order to set up a sweep to a more favorable position.


----------



## Ironbear24

People act like the ground and pound is fool proof and unstoppable. It isn't, I have gotten people off me in many ways such as hitting them then the diaphragm, pushing my legs and hips off the floor to roll them over onto their back, which puts me on top, And a simple wrist lock.

And for the record hitting the balls isn't "the easy button" people make it out to be because people, especially trained fighters expect to get in the balls and because of this we have natural tendency to expect it. Please try to hit my groin when in that position, it makes it easier because you set yourself up for several things.

One of them being a mean Judo armbar. I am saying this because in the end I want to become better and I want others to become better too, don't go for the magical nut shot, learn grappling techniques so when you do get into that position you know what to do.

Judo guys and bjj guys and many martial artists are taught to protect their groin, don't do what it is going to expected.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Hanzou said:


> No, he wasn't able to because he got knocked out within a matter of seconds. That tends to happen when the back of your skull hits concrete.
> 
> That's my point. The bottom of mount is too dangerous to trade blows or go for bites and groin strikes.
> 
> If you notice in the Gracie vid the FIRST thing they do is close the distance with a waist grab to remove the danger from the strikes. The next thing they do is break their adversary's posture in order to set up a sweep to a more favorable position.


That was a good vid, of course - but he could've opted for the jab into the testicles if there was more distance.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Ironbear24 said:


> People act like the ground and pound is fool proof and unstoppable. It isn't, I have gotten people off me in many ways such as hitting them then the diaphragm, pushing my legs and hips off the floor to roll them over onto their back, which puts me on top, And a simple wrist lock.
> 
> And for the record hitting the balls isn't "the easy button" people make it out to be because people, especially trained fighters expect to get in the balls and because of this we have natural tendency to expect it. Please try to hit my groin when in that position, it makes it easier because you set yourself up for several things.
> 
> One of them being a mean Judo armbar. I am saying this because in the end I want to become better and I want others to become better too, don't go for the magical nut shot, learn grappling techniques so when you do get into that position you know what to do.
> 
> Judo guys and bjj guys and many martial artists are taught to protect their groin, don't do what it is going to expected.


"Judo guys and bjj guys and many martial artists are taught to protect their groin, don't do what it is going to expected."

I want you to please tell me where you train then so I can join. My Gracie Barra gym was terrible.


----------



## Ironbear24

WarriorMonk7 said:


> "Judo guys and bjj guys and many martial artists are taught to protect their groin, don't do what it is going to expected."
> 
> I want you to please tell me where you train then so I can join. My Gracie Barra gym was terrible.



Mistake #1 never assume a place is good just because it has gracies name on it. I train in Shou Shu which is a basically kenpo karate with Chinese martial arts influence, my previous dojo was an Edmond Parker kenpo dojo that implemented Judo in it. 

Both places have both grappling and striking. If you are interested in Edmond Parker kenpo look up Stephen Labounty, also known as Sigung, Huk Planas kenpo is also a great take on it as well mixing Escrima into it which is a lot like Chinese arts. Tons of joint locks and leverage to take your enemy to the floor. 

Jiu Jutsu is a good style whether it is Asian or Latino makes no difference, since you are new I suggest stop worrying about styles and worry about your instructor, he or she should be like a mentor to you and be willing to beat you up for the sake of making you tougher and better at the art.

Avoid places that have no physical or minimal contact. If you guys are hitting each other pretty hard and practicing that way often that is a good sign.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Ironbear24 said:


> Mistake #1 never assume a place is good just because it has gracies name on it. I train in Shou Shu which is a basically kenpo karate with Chinese martial arts influence, my previous dojo was an Edmond Parker kenpo dojo that implemented Judo in it.
> 
> Both places have both grappling and striking. If you are interested in Edmond Parker kenpo look up Stephen Labounty, also known as Sigung, Huk Planas kenpo is also a great take on it as well mixing Escrima into it which is a lot like Chinese arts. Tons of joint locks and leverage to take your enemy to the floor.
> 
> Jiu Jutsu is a good style whether it is Asian or Latino makes no difference, since you are new I suggest stop worrying about styles and worry about your instructor, he or she should be like a mentor to you and be willing to beat you up for the sake of making you tougher and better at the art.
> 
> Avoid places that have no physical or minimal contact. If you guys are hitting each other pretty hard and practicing that way often that is a good sign.


Agreed.

I have a MT and wrestling background by the way. I'm at a decent local MMA gym now - but avoid the BJJ. Don't want to waste my time on it besides learning the simple - most used - submissions.

My mentor focuses a lot of wrestling.


----------



## Ironbear24

It wouldn't waste your time so long as the instruction is good.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Ironbear24 said:


> It wouldn't waste your time so long as the instruction is good.


Nah - not good.

It's not self-defense based. Mostly just MMA. MMA rules etc.


----------



## Ironbear24

Alright man it's your time and money. I'm just suggesting you don't close your mind to things. There is rarely a bad art out there that you can't benefit from. Especially if you are a Muay Thai guy, you need some grappling to benefit your strikes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I am new, so please be easy on me.
> 
> I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.
> 
> I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).
> 
> This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)
> 
> Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?
> 
> 1. Judokas wear tough gis.
> 
> The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?
> 
> 2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.
> 
> Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.
> 
> 3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.
> 
> -
> 
> Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo? Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW - please don't recommend BJJ over Judo. This is not a BJJ thread and I think BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.
> 
> (And these defenses are not great. --->
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Let me know what you think!!


The first time I used my martial arts for self-defense, it was my Judo I reached for. I don't recall the name of the technique, but I remember the situation well.

Yes, there are issues with translating Judo to the street, but they are somewhat remedied if you pay attention to them when you are training. Even more so if your instructor teaches self-defense applications. If you already have a striking component, Judo can be a good way to augment your toolbox.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Ironbear24 said:


> Judo is a lot of fun but it won't take you "rounded" as you put it. Judo typically has zero strikes involved and doesn't often teach how to block strikes. It is essentially all take downs and wrestling techniques.
> 
> This is why Judo is often along side another art, but this is not to say Judo alone is bad. Judo alone can be used to protect yourself against many types of attackers. Just close the distance and make that takedown count. A slam to the concrete will hurt anyone.


This is consistent with my Judo experience, but my instructor also taught Shotokan Karate, so he held off on all the non-competition parts of Judo, filling in those gaps with the Shotokan classes. It is my understanding that Judo (as Kano originally conceived it) has strikes, blocks, etc. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Kano wasn't happy about the deep competition/sport focus of Judo.


----------



## SenseiHitman

Learning to throw the attacker with or without a gi on is important. If you are attacked by someone with a winter jacket or coat or military battle dress uniform on you will find the insight you gained throwing people wearing gi useful.  Judo training would be very helpful but you may be able to find a Jujitsu school that teaches the throws without concern for rules.  Judo is a contest between gentleman.  The rules are designed to protect the players.  The Jujitsu dojo will teach the same throws without concern for the safety of the uki.  For example, you would bury the attacker into the ground head first with the combat version of a throw, in competition that would be unacceptable,  The Jujitsu dojo will also teach you how to throw people with joint locks applied to the limbs, hips/shoulders and head and standing chokes that are illegal in Judo.  I have spent some time training in Judo dojos and I really like the workouts, they train very hard and everything they practice has to work due to the competitive nature of Judo. In a perfect world I would say invest some time in both styles.  Of course, this all depends on what available in your area I will take a good Judo dojo over a sloppy Jujitsu dojo.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

SenseiHitman said:


> Learning to throw the attacker with or without a gi on is important. If you are attacked by someone with a winter jacket or coat or military battle dress uniform on you will find the insight you gained throwing people wearing gi useful.  Judo training would be very helpful but you may be able to find a Jujitsu school that teaches the throws without concern for rules.  Judo is a contest between gentleman.  The rules are designed to protect the players.  The Jujitsu dojo will teach the same throws without concern for the safety of the uki.  For example, you would bury the attacker into the ground head first with the combat version of a throw, in competition that would be unacceptable,  The Jujitsu dojo will also teach you how to throw people with joint locks applied to the limbs, hips/shoulders and head and standing chokes that are illegal in Judo.  I have spent some time training in Judo dojos and I really like the workouts, they train very hard and everything they practice has to work due to the competitive nature of Judo. In a perfect world I would say invest some time in both styles.  Of course, this all depends on what available in your area I will take a good Judo dojo over a sloppy Jujitsu dojo.


Actually, in both dojos, you will be concerned about the safety of uke. You won't "bury the attacker into the ground head first" in any practice session, and both Judo instructors and Jujitsu instructors can teach adaptation to practical defensive use. I've seen some Jujitsu schools that were too grounded in the formal technique, just as I've seen some Judo dojos that were too grounded in the needs of the competition. In my experience, Judo players actually throw harder than most Jujitsu practitioners.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

gpseymour said:


> Actually, in both dojos, you will be concerned about the safety of uke. You won't "bury the attacker into the ground head first" in any practice session, and both Judo instructors and Jujitsu instructors can teach adaptation to practical defensive use. I've seen some Jujitsu schools that were too grounded in the formal technique, just as I've seen some Judo dojos that were too grounded in the needs of the competition. In my experience, Judo players actually throw harder than most Jujitsu practitioners.


I think practicing it live - and sparring a lot - is important.

I did Japanese jujitsu when I was a kid, but there was little sparring (at least at that dojo).


----------



## kuniggety

Kong Soo Do said:


> I have.  I won.  Additionally, being an instructor in the fifth largest LE agency in my state gives me access to uses-of-force beyond the ones I've personally been involved in.  This includes video as well as after-action reports.  On top of this we have a regional training center that I've been an adjunct instructor at since the 90's.  This gives me access to other agencies in this part of the state.
> 
> No one can say 'you can't effectively strike the groin' because it's been done.
> 
> No one can say 'grabbing the testicles doesn't work' because it's been done.
> 
> No one can say 'gouging out an eye or biting doesn't work' because it's been done.
> 
> There are no absolutes in self defense.  What works one time may not work another time.  I've had a report of an elderly woman mounted by a young would-be rapist grabbing and crushing his testicles to the point he was subdued despite her being repeatedly struck in the head and upper torso.  I've also seen six Deputies try to take down one perp on drugs who shrugged off repeated groin strikes like it was nothing.
> 
> Being mounted is not a death sentence.  It isn't an autokill for the person on top.  And it doesn't mean that the person on the bottom gives up without exploiting any/every means of disabling the attacker and regaining their feet.



This is why I usually stay out of arguments on the Internet. None of your "points" counter my point. They're completely unrelated. I've heard/seen the story of the old lady before. He wasn't in the "mount" position discussed here and punching her in the face. He was getting her legs apart. Nor did I say being mounted is a death sentence. No one did. The point is that the person on the bottom should be controlling and or sweeping the person on the top, not striking back. Most of the power from a strike, which I'm sure you're aware of, comes from the core and not from the arms. When a person is mounted and flattened out on their back then they have essentially negligible strength to be striking back. To top this all off, what if the person on top is actually a woman? Let's see how far a groin strike will get you. Growing up in the Midwest and now living in Hawaii, I can tell you there's plenty of big women who can over power men.


----------



## Ironbear24

WarriorMonk7 said:


> I think practicing it live - and sparring a lot - is important.
> 
> I did Japanese jujitsu when I was a kid, but there was little sparring (at least at that dojo).





kuniggety said:


> This is why I usually stay out of arguments on the Internet. None of your "points" counter my point. They're completely unrelated. I've heard/seen the story of the old lady before. He wasn't in the "mount" position discussed here and punching her in the face. He was getting her legs apart. Nor did I say being mounted is a death sentence. No one did. The point is that the person on the bottom should be controlling and or sweeping the person on the top, not striking back. Most of the power from a strike, which I'm sure you're aware of, comes from the core and not from the arms. When a person is mounted and flattened out on their back then they have essentially negligible strength to be striking back. To top this all off, what if the person on top is actually a woman? Let's see how far a groin strike will get you. Growing up in the Midwest and now living in Hawaii, I can tell you there's plenty of big women who can over power men.





Well for one of you were a kid that can explain it, not many places want kids beating on eachother. Normally the heavier sparring is reserved for adults.

And yes we hawaiian/Pacific islander people can be pretty big. We didn't have ladders back then so our ancestors just punched the trees over (flex)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

WarriorMonk7 said:


> I think practicing it live - and sparring a lot - is important.
> 
> I did Japanese jujitsu when I was a kid, but there was little sparring (at least at that dojo).


I have seen that in schools, which is one of the consistent advantages of Judo: typically lots of sparring.


----------



## drop bear

WarriorMonk7 said:


> I think practicing it live - and sparring a lot - is important.
> 
> I did Japanese jujitsu when I was a kid, but there was little sparring (at least at that dojo).



Two types judo based and akido based.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

drop bear said:


> Two types judo based and akido based.


It was more wrist locks and holds and elbow breaking techniques - all done very slowly.

I didn't learn much.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Thanks man!
> 
> Can you explain - specifically - how you would protect your groin from the guard or mount? I'm very curious.



Sure, I can go over some of the basics...

Low mount - my entire groin is in no way exposed or reachable. It's glued to your belly with no exposed surfaces and my hips driving all the weight of my body through you.

High mount - the most sensitive portion of my groin (my testicles) are sandwiched between my body and yours and not reachable with a direct strike. You could possibly manage an awkward strike with relatively little power to the _front_ of my crotch area. To deal with this I have a few options. I can control your arms and use the fact that you are out of good position to break your arm or choke you out. Alternately I can pay back your awkward shots with full power shots that have the whole weight of my body behind them to bounce your head off the concrete until you go unconscious. There are other possibilities as well, but they would be easier to demonstrate than explain.

Guard - if I have done my job correctly and broken down your posture, then there is no striking path to my groin. Furthermore I probably have control of your arms. If I am not able to break down your posture or control your arms, then I am not staying in closed guard. I'm moving to an open guard where I can control the distance to protect against your strikes (whether they are to the groin or elsewhere). BTW - there _are_ ways to potentially attack someone's groin from within their guard - but you need the skill to shut down their guard offense and defenses _first_. That's not too hard against an untrained person, but a lot harder against someone who actually knows how to use the guard well.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Nope. Did BJJ for a year. I know, I know - a year is nothing.
> 
> I was not impressed with it, although it works fabulously well in an octagon with rules. Rules, gentlemen.



I'm curious - did you ever ask your instructor to show you how to deal with someone trying to attack your groin from within your guard or under your mount? Of did you just make assumptions?



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Mount me and I will elbow you in the groin. j/k. ; )





WarriorMonk7 said:


> 2nd elbow? Doubt it. Sorry. = /
> 
> And it Krav they don't grab your testicles. They aim the point of their elbows (olecranon) towards their mounted opponent to protect their face, since that essentially puts your head into a protective "cage." What follows are short but powerful strikes to the groin of the mounted opponent to either prepare for a sweep or discourage the mounted opponent from attacking you.



Have you ever tested this against experienced ground fighters?



Kong Soo Do said:


> There are no absolutes in self defense.



Completely correct. Just about any crazy technique you could think of that really shouldn't work has probably been successful at some point in the history of fighting. Probably more than once. That doesn't mean it should be your go-to move. Probably most of us would agree that throwing punches with your eyes closed is a suboptimal approach. Nevertheless I'm quite certain that there have been a number of guys over the years who have swung blindly in a fight and landed a lucky shot which knocked their opponent out. I'm still not going to recommend that approach to my students.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Being mounted is not a death sentence. It isn't an autokill for the person on top. And it doesn't mean that the person on the bottom gives up without exploiting any/every means of disabling the attacker and regaining their feet.



Absolutely! But there are some approaches for escaping bottom of mount which have a much higher likelihood of success than others.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> I someone is raining nut jabs on your boys, wouldn't you jump off?



Nope. Jumping off would actually make it _easier_ for him to land cleaner shots on my groin. I'll make him pay for the jabs by knocking him out, choking him out, or breaking some limbs.  Also as I mentioned before, the nuts are not actually exposed. Front of the crotch is best you can do.



Kong Soo Do said:


> However, what would your 'more proven' methods be like? And, how are you rating them as 'more proven'?



Controlling distance and the opponent's posture to limit his ability to strike first, then there are a variety of ways to improve the position. Since we're on the subject of "non-sport" methods ... there are ways you can sometimes use biting to supplement an escape - but only once you've shut down your opponent's strikes. Even then it's a supplement to the escape, not something to rely on by itself. I can think of one escape you might be able to supplement with a groin strike, but only once you're already 75% of the way through to a successful escape. Attacking the eyes or throat ... I'm not going to say it could never work, but I will say it actually has a higher chance of making your situation worse than of making it better.

As far as how I'm rating them as more "proven?" Decades of personal experience training escapes from the bottom of mount coupled with talking with people who have many more decades of experience and watching every bit of footage I can of people fighting in that position, both in sport and in the street.



Kong Soo Do said:


> What is the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom uses his knife (or improvised edged weapon) to slash or stab him?



Quite likely get seriously injured or killed. That's a serious risk fighting unarmed against a knife in _any_ position, standing or on the ground - especially if you aren't aware the knife is present. If the top guy was aware of the knife, then he certainly shouldn't be sitting there throwing punches. He should be trying to control the knife arm.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom decides not to lay there (like the guy in the video) and arches up which unbalances the guy on top and he smashes his head into the parked car right next to them?



That guy in that position? He's going to keep doing what he's doing. Bridging to unbalance the guy on top is a standard defense both in and out of the cage. The guy on bottom knows that and would do it if he could. He's not laying there because he doesn't know any better. Unfortunately the guy on top has already successfully shut down that defense.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom reaches up and grabs one of his arms and takes a bite out of it to the bone?



Not going to be very easy to do at that moment in time, because it's hard to get that degree of control on arms that are raining down punches. Nevertheless, there are other potential moments on the bottom of the mount where you might be able to get control of an arm and take a chomp, so let's consider the possibilities from one of those moments.

If the top guy is a pure sportsman in a friendly competition, he might scream bloody murder and call for the ref.

If the top guy is a bully establishing dominance who wasn't expecting things to escalate that far, he might try to rip his arm free and jump off.

If the guy is a tough minded vicious fighter who knows what he's doing, he might use his weight to jam his arm deeper into your mouth (which seriously limits your ability to bite down and may even damage your jaw), then use his free hand to gouge your eyes while you are stuck there unable to move your head out of the way.

As I mentioned above, there are ways to use biting in escapes. My recommendation is to protect yourself first, then use the bites as added fuel for a technically sound escape. Don't rely on the bite as a substitute for a technical escape.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Or, what's the guy on top going to do when the guy on the bottom does pretty much a bunch of different stuff that the guy in your video isn't allowed to do?



List some of that different stuff and I'll let you know if I have an answer. If not, I'll go do some experimentation and get back to you.



Hanzou said:


> How is he going to reach for his knife when the guy on top is hitting him in the face?



I wouldn't rely on those punches to prevent the guy on bottom from reaching his knife. Maybe he'll be to distracted or fearful to reach for it. Maybe he'll get knocked out before he reaches the knife. If I were the guy on top I wouldn't bet my life on either of those possibilities.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Yep. Straight jab into the nuts brother.
> 
> Let's see about that ground and pound after a coupla nut shots.



See my comments above regarding the position of the testicles. Still, there's no point in relying on theory or my word. If you're ever in the area come by and we can run a series of controlled experiments.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> Have you ever been hit in the nuts? Remember what that felt like? Really stop for a second and think about it.



Yep. I've got a reasonably clear notion of what it's like.



Skullpunch said:


> The only rules in the beginning were no biting and no eye-gouging.



Actually, biting and eye-gouging weren't exactly forbidden. They just were supposed to result  in  being fined part of your purse. There's actually a decent chance that biting or eye-gouging in a street fight might result in more costly financial penalties than doing the same in UFC 1. Gerard Gordeau did try to bite Royce Gracie in UFC 1 and got choked in payback. Two years later he fought Yuki Nakai in Vale Tudo Japan and eye gouged him badly enough so that Nakai was permanently blinded in one eye, even though eye gouging was against the rules. Nakai still won the fight after being eye gouged. (He also went on to win his next fight in the tournament that same night.) Gordeau is a sociopath who really should have gone to prison for that piece of nastiness, but Nakai didn't want to generate bad publicity for the sport of MMA so no charges were brought.



WarriorMonk7 said:


> "Judo guys and bjj guys and many martial artists are taught to protect their groin, don't do what it is going to expected."
> 
> I want you to please tell me where you train then so I can join. My Gracie Barra gym was terrible.



I train and teach at 4 Seasons MMA in Lexington, KY. If you come to my classes I will teach you how to protect your groin. My instructor can also show you that if you ask him. Some of my fellow instructors are more oriented towards sport competition, so you may not get that material in their classes.


----------



## WarriorMonk7

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sure, I can go over some of the basics...
> 
> Low mount - my entire groin is in no way exposed or reachable. It's glued to your belly with no exposed surfaces and my hips driving all the weight of my body through you.
> 
> High mount - the most sensitive portion of my groin (my testicles) are sandwiched between my body and yours and not reachable with a direct strike. You could possibly manage an awkward strike with relatively little power to the _front_ of my crotch area. To deal with this I have a few options. I can control your arms and use the fact that you are out of good position to break your arm or choke you out. Alternately I can pay back your awkward shots with full power shots that have the whole weight of my body behind them to bounce your head off the concrete until you go unconscious. There are other possibilities as well, but they would be easier to demonstrate than explain.
> 
> Guard - if I have done my job correctly and broken down your posture, then there is no striking path to my groin. Furthermore I probably have control of your arms. If I am not able to break down your posture or control your arms, then I am not staying in closed guard. I'm moving to an open guard where I can control the distance to protect against your strikes (whether they are to the groin or elsewhere). BTW - there _are_ ways to potentially attack someone's groin from within their guard - but you need the skill to shut down their guard offense and defenses _first_. That's not too hard against an untrained person, but a lot harder against someone who actually knows how to use the guard well.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious - did you ever ask your instructor to show you how to deal with someone trying to attack your groin from within your guard or under your mount? Of did you just make assumptions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever tested this against experienced ground fighters?
> 
> 
> 
> Completely correct. Just about any crazy technique you could think of that really shouldn't work has probably been successful at some point in the history of fighting. Probably more than once. That doesn't mean it should be your go-to move. Probably most of us would agree that throwing punches with your eyes closed is a suboptimal approach. Nevertheless I'm quite certain that there have been a number of guys over the years who have swung blindly in a fight and landed a lucky shot which knocked their opponent out. I'm still not going to recommend that approach to my students.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely! But there are some approaches for escaping bottom of mount which have a much higher likelihood of success than others.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Jumping off would actually make it _easier_ for him to land cleaner shots on my groin. I'll make him pay for the jabs by knocking him out, choking him out, or breaking some limbs.  Also as I mentioned before, the nuts are not actually exposed. Front of the crotch is best you can do.
> 
> 
> 
> Controlling distance and the opponent's posture to limit his ability to strike first, then there are a variety of ways to improve the position. Since we're on the subject of "non-sport" methods ... there are ways you can sometimes use biting to supplement an escape - but only once you've shut down your opponent's strikes. Even then it's a supplement to the escape, not something to rely on by itself. I can think of one escape you might be able to supplement with a groin strike, but only once you're already 75% of the way through to a successful escape. Attacking the eyes or throat ... I'm not going to say it could never work, but I will say it actually has a higher chance of making your situation worse than of making it better.
> 
> As far as how I'm rating them as more "proven?" Decades of personal experience training escapes from the bottom of mount coupled with talking with people who have many more decades of experience and watching every bit of footage I can of people fighting in that position, both in sport and in the street.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite likely get seriously injured or killed. That's a serious risk fighting unarmed against a knife in _any_ position, standing or on the ground - especially if you aren't aware the knife is present. If the top guy was aware of the knife, then he certainly shouldn't be sitting there throwing punches. He should be trying to control the knife arm.
> 
> 
> 
> That guy in that position? He's going to keep doing what he's doing. Bridging to unbalance the guy on top is a standard defense both in and out of the cage. The guy on bottom knows that and would do it if he could. He's not laying there because he doesn't know any better. Unfortunately the guy on top has already successfully shut down that defense.
> 
> 
> 
> Not going to be very easy to do at that moment in time, because it's hard to get that degree of control on arms that are raining down punches. Nevertheless, there are other potential moments on the bottom of the mount where you might be able to get control of an arm and take a chomp, so let's consider the possibilities from one of those moments.
> 
> If the top guy is a pure sportsman in a friendly competition, he might scream bloody murder and call for the ref.
> 
> If the top guy is a bully establishing dominance who wasn't expecting things to escalate that far, he might try to rip his arm free and jump off.
> 
> If the guy is a tough minded vicious fighter who knows what he's doing, he might use his weight to jam his arm deeper into your mouth (which seriously limits your ability to bite down and may even damage your jaw), then use his free hand to gouge your eyes while you are stuck there unable to move your head out of the way.
> 
> As I mentioned above, there are ways to use biting in escapes. My recommendation is to protect yourself first, then use the bites as added fuel for a technically sound escape. Don't rely on the bite as a substitute for a technical escape.
> 
> 
> 
> List some of that different stuff and I'll let you know if I have an answer. If not, I'll go do some experimentation and get back to you.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't rely on those punches to prevent the guy on bottom from reaching his knife. Maybe he'll be to distracted or fearful to reach for it. Maybe he'll get knocked out before he reaches the knife. If I were the guy on top I wouldn't bet my life on either of those possibilities.
> 
> 
> 
> See my comments above regarding the position of the testicles. Still, there's no point in relying on theory or my word. If you're ever in the area come by and we can run a series of controlled experiments.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. I've got a reasonably clear notion of what it's like.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, biting and eye-gouging weren't exactly forbidden. They just were supposed to result  in  being fined part of your purse. There's actually a decent chance that biting or eye-gouging in a street fight might result in more costly financial penalties than doing the same in UFC 1. Gerard Gordeau did try to bite Royce Gracie in UFC 1 and got choked in payback. Two years later he fought Yuki Nakai in Vale Tudo Japan and eye gouged him badly enough so that Nakai was permanently blinded in one eye, even though eye gouging was against the rules. Nakai still won the fight after being eye gouged. (He also went on to win his next fight in the tournament that same night.) Gordeau is a sociopath who really should have gone to prison for that piece of nastiness, but Nakai didn't want to generate bad publicity for the sport of MMA so no charges were brought.
> 
> 
> 
> I train and teach at 4 Seasons MMA in Lexington, KY. If you come to my classes I will teach you how to protect your groin. My instructor can also show you that if you ask him. Some of my fellow instructors are more oriented towards sport competition, so you may not get that material in their classes.


Man - your post is so good. I am tempted to fly to KY.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not going to be very easy to do at that moment in time, because it's hard to get that degree of control on arms that are raining down punches. Nevertheless, there are other potential moments on the bottom of the mount where you might be able to get control of an arm and take a chomp, so let's consider the possibilities from one of those moments.



I had that happen while i transitioned from half guard to mount on a guy. 

I nose gouged him and he let go.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Man - your post is so good. I am tempted to fly to KY.


Where do you live? There may somebody in your area who takes the same sort of approach I do. There are an increasing number of BJJ practitioners these days who only care about sport competition, but there are also plenty who still treat it as a martial art. (There are also those who train both aspects and know what needs to be adjusted for using the art in different contexts.)


----------



## Juany118

Ironbear24 said:


> BJJ and JJ is good for self defense but keep in mind that this is not ideal for many street situations. If you are in a bar do you want to take the attacker to the floor? That handles him but what about the guys girlfriend and his two other friends?
> 
> I guarantee you they are going to be hitting you while you have the other guy on the floor or any sort of hold. The style is great at one on one vs someone who has minimal or no grappling experience, if they know good escapes and have a history of a grappling art than you could be in serious trouble if you are not excellent at it.



This is something was too many people don't do when selecting a Martial Art for real world applications, you need to consider the tactical considerations.  Not only what you note but also with environmental concerns.  I work with one guy who is an AWESOME wrestler, all State in High School, very successful in college as well.  He still keeps up and coaches at a local High School.  He also has given himself 2 concussions because he has gone pure muscle memory with take downs and concrete =/= the mat.  Heck I almost did it myself one night.  I went to do an Aikido takedown, I had forgotten about the plate glass sliding door at the ER entrance, I almost launched the suspect into it.  If I hadn't suddenly bailed on the maneuver and yanked him off line...well at least we were already in the ER lol.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> I train and teach at 4 Seasons MMA in Lexington, KY. If you come to my classes I will teach you how to protect your groin. My instructor can also show you that if you ask him. Some of my fellow instructors are more oriented towards sport competition, so you may not get that material in their classes.


Crap. I was in Lexington about 10 days ago. I'll have to remember you're there, Tony -  a client of mine sends me out there once or twice a year, and I could easily build in an extra night so I could stop by and visit 4 Seasons.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> Crap. I was in Lexington about 10 days ago. I'll have to remember you're there, Tony -  a client of mine sends me out there once or twice a year, and I could easily build in an extra night so I could stop by and visit 4 Seasons.


Cool! Let me know when you come through so I can make sure I'm there that night.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cool! Let me know when you come through so I can make sure I'm there that night.


I will do that, as long as you promise to take it easy on me - I can't roll like I once did.


----------



## Charlemagne

WarriorMonk7 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I am new, so please be easy on me.
> 
> I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.
> 
> I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).
> 
> This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)
> 
> Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?...



You might look at places that do Freestyle Judo rather than IJF rules.  The Welcome Mat group seems to be doing some legit Judo based combatives.  

Just a thought.


----------



## Hanzou

Charlemagne said:


> You might look at places that do Freestyle Judo rather than IJF rules.  The Welcome Mat group seems to be doing some legit Judo based combatives.
> 
> Just a thought.



Honestly with the way things are going with the IJF, Freestyle Judo places may be the only places left to get full Judo instruction.

There are Guerrilla Jiujitsu schools that combine Judo with Bjj. Never trained there myself, and there's only a handful of locations around the world, but the founder of it is pretty legit. Additionally, the OP might even want to try a Gracie Jiujitsu school. Old school Bjj is pretty much Judo applied to street fighting.


----------



## Charlemagne

Hanzou said:


> Honestly with the way things are going with the IJF, Freestyle Judo places may be the only places left to get full Judo instruction.
> 
> There are Guerrilla Jiujitsu schools that combine Judo with Bjj. Never trained there myself, and there's only a handful of locations around the world, but the founder of it is pretty legit. Additionally, the OP might even want to try a Gracie Jiujitsu school. Old school Bjj is pretty much Judo applied to street fighting.



Yep.  Any Gracie Jiu-Jistu affiliate, Pedro Sauer affiliate, Valente Brothers, Royce Gracie, or Relson Gracie affiliate would be a good place to look for a more defensive focused BJJ.  The "Traditional Kodokan Judo" affiliate clubs might work as well, but I think there was something wrong with that organization from what I remember.  Not sure though. 

Dave Camarillo is as legit as they come, no question about that in my mind.  Also, any Ribeiro Jiu-Jitsu affiliate is likely to have some Judo mixed with their BJJ as well.  Saulo Ribeiro is a big fan of Judo, and he and his brother Xande have a Judo for BJJ class at their HQ.

As weird as their name sounds, it is my understanding that these guys are legit as well: John Saylor Shingitai Jujitsu Association Ground fighting Martial Arts and Jujitsu Exercise Training Videos and Strength Building Equipment


----------



## Charlemagne

Charlemagne said:


> Yep.  Any Gracie Jiu-Jistu affiliate, Pedro Sauer affiliate, Valente Brothers, Royce Gracie, or Relson Gracie affiliate would be a good place to look for a more defensive focused BJJ.



I should add to the above that Gracie Barra, though having a well deserved reputation for competition, has in recent years changed their fundamentals program and even their advanced program to incorporate much more self-defense and MMA material (defending strikes while on the ground, etc.).


----------



## elder999

Charlemagne said:


> I should add to the above that Gracie Barra, though having a well deserved reputation for competition, has in recent years changed their fundamentals program and even their advanced program to incorporate much more self-defense and MMA material (defending strikes while on the ground, etc.).


Yeah, but they're....eh


----------



## Charlemagne

elder999 said:


> Yeah, but they're....eh



Don't really care about that sort of thing.  Are they good people who provide good training and a positive environment?  That's what I care about.


----------



## elder999

Charlemagne said:


> Don't really care about that sort of thing.  Are they good people who provide good training and a positive environment?  That's what I care about.




So it's okay with you that they're liars, then?


----------



## Ironbear24

elder999 said:


> Yeah, but they're....eh
> View attachment 19946



That's false.


----------



## Charlemagne

elder999 said:


> So it's okay with you that they're liars, then?



Because their history with the Gi is wrong I am supposed to be up in arms? 

Of all the crazy crap that goes on in Martial Arts, to include: people teaching crap that will get other people killed should they ever try to defend themselves with it (and charging them money for doing it), Ninja larpers, chi masters all over the place, this martial art is too deadly to spar and that one is too peaceful to spar, all taught by out of shape fat guys who have have never pressure tested anything they teach and can't even fit into their gi let alone tell you the history of it.  All of that, and much more, and _this_ is what I am supposed to care about? 

Regardless, the average Gracie Barra instructor has nothing to do with the signage that gets put up in their school.


----------



## elder999

Charlemagne said:


> Because their history with the Gi is wrong I am supposed to be up in arms?
> 
> Of all the crazy crap that goes on in Martial Arts, to include: people teaching crap that will get other people killed should they ever try to defend themselves with it (and charging them money for doing it), Ninja larpers, chi masters all over the place, this martial art is too deadly to spar and that one is too peaceful to spar, all taught by out of shape fat guys who have have never pressure tested anything they teach and can't even fit into their gi let alone tell you the history of it.  All of that, and much more, and _this_ is what I am supposed to care about?
> 
> Regardless, the average Gracie Barra instructor has nothing to do with the signage that gets put up in their school.


So who knows what other B.S. they're perpetrating?


----------



## Ironbear24

elder999 said:


> So who knows what other B.S. they're perpetrating?



90% of all fights go to the ground.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> 90% of all fights go to the ground.



That isn't unique to Gracie Barra, which is who I believe he taking shots at since he didn't go after the other BJJ groups mentioned.  

As for the 90% thing, I'm not any kind of fight master (and don't wish to be), but the majority of the fights I have been in have gone to the ground.  Can't speak for others, but I think in this day and age it is obvious that anyone without a ground game is lacking when it comes to self-defense.


----------



## Ironbear24

Charlemagne said:


> That isn't unique to Gracie Barra, which is who I believe he taking shots at since he didn't go after the other BJJ groups mentioned.
> 
> As for the 90% thing, I'm not any kind of fight master (and don't wish to be), but the majority of the fights I have been in have gone to the ground.  Can't speak for others, but I think in this day and age it is obvious that anyone without a ground game is lacking when it comes to self-defense.



Where did they gather this statistic from? To be honest it sounds made up on the spot. If he said many fights go to the ground I can understand that, but to label percentage on it especially one as big as 90% sets of my Bs alarm.

I have been in many fights, I have gotten into some heat over that, but they rarely went to the ground. Some have but it wasnt common to happen. They did however all have a clinch in them, but that's exactly ground or "ground game."


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> Where did they gather this statistic from? To be honest it sounds made up on the spot. If he said many fights go to the ground I can understand that, but to label percentage on it especially one as big as 90% sets of my Bs alarm.
> 
> I have been in many fights, I have gotten into some heat over that, but they rarely went to the ground. Some have but it wasnt common to happen. They did however all have a clinch in them, but that's exactly ground or "ground game."



Don't know where it came from, or who started it.  I don't think it is unique to the Gracie family though.


----------



## Ironbear24

Charlemagne said:


> Don't know where it came from, or who started it.  I don't think it is unique to the Gracie family though.



They say it in about all of their DVDs. And challenge videos. I'm not trying to knock them or badmouth the style, just keep in mind you have to seperate the reality from the propaganda machine to draw people in to sign up. 

They are good at what they do when it comes to the jiu jitsu, which is what is all about.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> Where did they gather this statistic from? To be honest it sounds made up on the spot. If he said many fights go to the ground I can understand that, but to label percentage on it especially one as big as 90% sets of my Bs alarm.
> 
> I have been in many fights, I have gotten into some heat over that, but they rarely went to the ground. Some have but it wasnt common to happen. They did however all have a clinch in them, but that's exactly ground or "ground game."



The methodology behind that stat is if there's people fighting one another, they're going to start striking each other, then clinch, then attempt to wrestle each other to the ground, then attempt to control on the ground. That methodology comes from Maeda, not the Gracie clan.

In your case, the fights ended in the second or third phase for whatever reason which is perfectly fine. Bjj 's methodology is that if you're dealing with someone physically much stronger than you, and they take you to the ground, then your ground skill will save you. On the flip side, you could be skillful enough to take them down on your terms and your ground skill will allow you to dominate them from that range.

The entire point of Bjj is to never let someone dominate YOU while you're on the ground. The most lethal damage in an encounter usually happens from that range.


----------



## Charlemagne

Hanzou said:


> The methodology behind that stat is if there's people fighting one another, they're going to start striking each other, then clinch, then attempt to wrestle each other to the ground, then attempt to control on the ground. That methodology comes from Maeda, not the Gracie clan.
> 
> In your case, the fights ended in the second or third phase for whatever reason which is perfectly fine. Bjj 's methodology is that if you're dealing with someone physically much stronger than you, and they take you to the ground, then your ground skill will save you. On the flip side, you could be skillful enough to take them down on your terms and your ground skill will allow you to dominate them from that range.
> 
> The entire point of Bjj is to never let someone dominate YOU while you're on the ground. The most lethal damage in an encounter usually happens from that range.



Interesting on Maeda, I had not heard that attributed to him.  

Agreed on all of the rest.  I personally have zero desire to go to the ground in a real fight for any number of reasons, but I do want to know what to do if I get taken there against my will.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> The methodology behind that stat is if there's people fighting one another, they're going to start striking each other, then clinch, then attempt to wrestle each other to the ground, then attempt to control on the ground. That methodology comes from Maeda, not the Gracie clan.
> 
> In your case, the fights ended in the second or third phase for whatever reason which is perfectly fine. Bjj 's methodology is that if you're dealing with someone physically much stronger than you, and they take you to the ground, then your ground skill will save you. On the flip side, you could be skillful enough to take them down on your terms and your ground skill will allow you to dominate them from that range.
> 
> The entire point of Bjj is to never let someone dominate YOU while you're on the ground. The most lethal damage in an encounter usually happens from that range.



Yeah you're right on that. They all ended in striking rang and clinch range.

I don't agree about the most lethal damage comes from ground range though, you can get kicked in the neck or the head and die from striking range, I will say that the ground range has potential to end fights very quick. Especially if the opponent is on the bottom position since they have to fight gravity + their own body weight + your own body weight.


----------



## Ironbear24

Charlemagne said:


> Interesting on Maeda, I had not heard that attributed to him.
> 
> Agreed on all of the rest.  I personally have zero desire to go to the ground in a real fight for any number of reasons, but I do want to know what to do if I get taken there against my will.



I was skeptical about it at first, then I did it and it was actually very easy once they are in such position, when the opponent is grounded like that you can stomp them, punch or elbow many vital areas or slap them or give them a wet Willy. They also will be horrible at fighting back unless they have some experience.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> They are good at what they do when it comes to the jiu jitsu, which is what is all about.


  That's what I'm there for.   

I don't know if they have proven the 90% thing, but I think it is pretty fair to say that they have proven that if someone wants to take you to the ground, even if you are a trained martial artist, it is pretty hard to stop them.  

As for the propaganda machine, some of that criticism is fair.  I would say however, that they, far more than most, have put themselves out there in a real way to prove that what they do works, and as such, have earned at least some right to talk up what they do.  If all martial artists held themselves to a similar standard of real world performance we would have a lot fewer people getting ripped off.


----------



## Ironbear24

Charlemagne said:


> That's what I'm there for.
> 
> I don't know if they have proven the 90% thing, but I think it is pretty fair to say that they have proven that if someone wants to take you to the ground, even if you are a trained martial artist, it is pretty hard to stop them.
> 
> As for the propaganda machine, some of that criticism is fair.  I would say however, that they, far more than most, have put themselves out there in a real way to prove that what they do works, and as such, have earned at least some right to talk up what they do.  If all martial artists held themselves to a similar standard of real world performance we would have a lot fewer people getting ripped off.



Charlatans will exist in every style. Unfortunately there are some in bjj as well, the thing you gotta realize is with the gracies, many of their fights went to the floor because well, they forced the fight to go there.

In all honesty they wanted the fight to go their because that is where they are at their best. They do that to eliminate their opponents ability to punch, kick, ect by taking them to the floor where they are forced to grapple.


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> Yeah you're right on that. They all ended in striking rang and clinch range.
> 
> I don't agree about the most lethal damage comes from ground range though, you can get kicked in the neck or the head and die from striking range, I will say that the ground range has potential to end fights very quick. Especially if the opponent is on the bottom position since they have to fight gravity + their own body weight + your own body weight.



You have to look at the averages on that one. The chances of someone punching or kicking you and killing you is very slim. Typically deaths from striking occurs from people getting knocked out and then hitting their head on a hard surface.

Turn that around and consider the chances of serious injury or death if someone is on top of you and dropping punches and elbows, or gripping your head and smacking it directly to the concrete. Likewise, them standing over you and kicking or curb stomping your head. In a situation like that, The chances of death or serious trauma are magnified.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> I was skeptical about it at first, then I did it and it was actually very easy once they are in such position, when the opponent is grounded like that you can stomp them, punch or elbow many vital areas or slap them or give them a wet Willy. They also will be horrible at fighting back unless they have some experience.



All true.  I don't deny any of that. 

My paradigm of self-defense is one where I wish to consider multiple attackers, the potential presence of my wife and child who I need to look after, and the possibility of weapons.  These considerations color my perception about what is, and is not, desirable for me to do.  Going to the ground where there is more than one person is a crap show, as I am sure you will agree.  And, though there are some people doing some really good work with BJJ and weapons grappling these days, it still isn't a good situation to be in.  As such, I really have no desire to go there if I don't have to. 

I added BJJ to my training because the other guy gets a vote, it's a great workout, and it's fun to do.


----------



## Ironbear24

Charlemagne said:


> All true.  I don't deny any of that.
> 
> My paradigm of self-defense is one where I wish to consider multiple attackers, the potential presence of my wife and child who I need to look after, and the possibility of weapons.  These considerations color my perception about what is, and is not, desirable for me to do.  Going to the ground where there is more than one person is a crap show, as I am sure you will agree.  And, though there are some people doing some really good work with BJJ and weapons grappling these days, it still isn't a good situation to be in.  As such, I really have no desire to go there if I don't have to.
> 
> I train BJJ because the other guy gets a vote, it is a great workout, and it is fun to do.



In all honesty if you want home defense just get a cheap pistol from a pawn shop, most of the time burglars are going to be armed and no matter what the martial arts is a gun tends to beat you.

Unless of course they are stupid enough to try and shoot you up close. Bjj is a good workout for sure though, my sifu is a blue belt in it and sometimes shows us a few things from it. Hopefully it helps me lose some weight, right now I am sitting at 212 when I had previously lost 8 pounds. It seems to jump up and down between those 8.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> Charlatans will exist in every style. Unfortunately there are some in bjj as well, the thing you gotta realize is with the gracies, many of their fights went to the floor because well, they forced the fight to go there.
> 
> In all honesty they wanted the fight to go their because that is where they are at their best. They do that to eliminate their opponents ability to punch, kick, ect by taking them to the floor where they are forced to grapple.



No disagreement there.  Relson Gracie even said that when he would get the mount on someone and start punching them that Helio would yell at him because he wanted it to end with a submission.  

As for charlatans in the art, yes there are some, but the system itself is sound, which was my point earlier  There are a bunch of other knuckleheads out there making crap systems up that never put it on the line.  In addition, the BJJ community at large cares enough about the quality of their art to call out people who are actual charlatans in a way that other martial artists simply don't do.  They go out of their way to expose frauds.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> In all honesty if you want home defense just get a cheap pistol from a pawn shop, most of the time burglars are going to be armed and no matter what the martial arts is a gun tends to beat you.



I don't consider martial arts to be a viable home defense option, sorry for not making that more clear.  I'm talking about being out and about.  At home, I definitely go with the firearm, though I a bit of a gun snob, so it won't be a cheap pawn shop pistol for me.


----------



## Ironbear24

Charlemagne said:


> No disagreement there.  Relson Gracie even said that when he would get the mount on someone and start punching them that Helio would yell at him because he wanted it to end with a submission.
> 
> As for charlatans in the art, yes there are some, but the system itself is sound, which was my point earlier  There are a bunch of other knuckleheads out there making crap systems up that never put it on the line.  In addition, the BJJ community at large cares enough about the quality of their art to call out people who are actual charlatans in a way that other martial artists simply don't do.  They go out of their way to expose frauds.



Yup. What exposes a fake style is competition. If the style never fights then what good is it? How will you know if it is even viable? This is why I ask all of the dojos I have been in if they compete in full contact competitions. I have had a few say no, that they are " A self defense only stlye." 

And well I took my money somewhere else.


----------



## Buka

Hanzou said:


> The methodology behind that stat is if there's people fighting one another, they're going to start striking each other, then clinch, then attempt to wrestle each other to the ground, then attempt to control on the ground. That methodology comes from Maeda, not the Gracie clan.
> 
> In your case, the fights ended in the second or third phase for whatever reason which is perfectly fine. Bjj 's methodology is that if you're dealing with someone physically much stronger than you, and they take you to the ground, then your ground skill will save you. On the flip side, you could be skillful enough to take them down on your terms and your ground skill will allow you to dominate them from that range.
> 
> The entire point of Bjj is to never let someone dominate YOU while you're on the ground. The most lethal damage in an encounter usually happens from that range.



There is no question that you know far more about BJJ than I do.  (gee, ya think?) I mean I know zero, zip, nada, I'm just a shrub, a  weak shrub at that, you're purple and I'm white. But, as  I was taught - position is key and that's what I base everything on, position. I believe that the entire point of BJJ, at least as how I was taught, is to take away space from your opponent.
From there, it's ice cream.

As for the striking part of it while grappling, I was taught by Rickson. Specifically for striking while grappling.  So far, it's worked pretty good.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> Yup. What exposes a fake style is competition. If the style never fights then what good is it? How will you know if it is even viable? This is why I ask all of the dojos I have been in if they compete in full contact competitions. I have had a few say no, that they are " A self defense only stlye."
> 
> And well I took my money somewhere else.



I understand. Today it is pretty easy to figure out which systems are trained in such a way to promote transfer of learning to a real situation and which ones are not.  And to be fair, some things are not really appropriate for sparring, that argument does have merit.  In addition, I am not always concerned about competition either, though I get where you are coming from there.  However, not competing doesn't mean never validating your system or pressure testing your abilities.  For example, in the FMA system I train now, it's not like we can do full contact stick or knife sparring every darn day, that isn't remotely practical. But what we can do, is do those things once and a while, and in other times do full speed technical sparring where it is obvious who had the timing, range, and placement that would have been a legit strike.  This helps us to see which aspects of the system we are able to pull off in real time and which ones we cannot, which serves as a validation of the system, and provides a guide for which things we need to develop.  I see no reason other systems cannot do something similar.  And, to give credit where it is due, some guys _are_ doing those things, even in systems where their peers are not.  

Grappling is unique in that you can spar pretty much every time you train without anyone really getting injured.  Striking and weapons arts are not so lucky in that regard.


----------



## Charlemagne

Buka said:


> As for the striking part of it while grappling, I was taught by Rickson...


OK, so I am a bit jealous on that one.


----------



## Ironbear24

Striking sparring you do it when your limbs heal and your bruises are bearable.

Grappling you do it when your mat burns heal.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> Striking sparring you do it when your limbs heal and your bruises are bearable.


 I believe in hard sparring, but some people can't walk around all bruised up all the time, and have to time their harder sessions in such a way that will work for them.  I work at a university, so I try to do more of that sort of thing in the summer when I am not teaching.  I forgot to wear a long sleeved shirt once after training and showed up with huge bruises all over my arms from hard knife tapping drills and a couple of my students about had a cow. I had to play off the bruises, but it did remind me that I need to be more careful about such things.  Someone who works in a corporate setting might have even a tougher time with things.  Life happens.  



> Grappling you do it when your mat burns heal.


 Or you just tape them up and roll again the next class. ;o  At least that seems to be how I am getting by so far, though I am certainly no grappling master.


----------



## Hanzou

Buka said:


> There is no question that you know far more about BJJ than I do.  (gee, ya think?) I mean I know zero, zip, nada, I'm just a shrub, a  weak shrub at that, you're purple and I'm white. But, as  I was taught - position is key and that's what I base everything on, position. I believe that the entire point of BJJ, at least as how I was taught, is to take away space from your opponent.
> From there, it's ice cream.
> 
> As for the striking part of it while grappling, I was taught by Rickson. Specifically for striking while grappling.  So far, it's worked pretty good.



Position is absolutely the key, I was talking more to the point of learning those positions in the first place.   We learn them so that we're not stuck in inferior positions and getting our heads caved in.

Were you a direct student of Rickson? If so, like Char I'm jealous.


----------



## kuniggety

Buka is an old man. I learned from Rickson's student's student.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Hanzou said:


> You have to look at the averages on that one. The chances of someone punching or kicking you and killing you is very slim. Typically deaths from striking occurs from people getting knocked out and then hitting their head on a hard surface.
> 
> Turn that around and consider the chances of serious injury or death if someone is on top of you and dropping punches and elbows, or gripping your head and smacking it directly to the concrete. Likewise, them standing over you and kicking or curb stomping your head. In a situation like that, The chances of death or serious trauma are magnified.


Have to agree with this. I'm pretty certain that that's the reason you see head gear worn in Taekwondo competition. It's not the initial impact of the kick or punch, but the head hitting the floor that does the worst damage. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Buka

Hanzou said:


> Position is absolutely the key, I was talking more to the point of learning those positions in the first place.   We learn them so that we're not stuck in inferior positions and getting our heads caved in.
> 
> Were you a direct student of Rickson? If so, like Char I'm jealous.



I used to train with a lot of people. Back in 92, one of them, Joe, was a Jeet Kune Do Instructor. One day I stopped by to say hi as I was passing through that town. He says I should come down on Friday and plan on spending the weekend there. Says his Jits instructor is coming to teach all weekend. Some guy name of "Hickson". So I go. (Joe was a purple belt at the time) We trained Fri, Sat and Sun. Talk about open your eyes, damn. Rickson wasn't teaching us straight BJJ, rather, he was teaching us how to apply what we do while on the ground.

The following month was the same, three days training with Hickson. This time my wife came. Like the first time, there was only a handful of people. (can you imagine?) Rickson is one of the nicest people I've ever met, a true gentleman. So....while rolling on Saturday, Rickson lets my wife submit him, as he only does with women and little kids. (at least at that time) She slams him on the shoulder and barks, "Don't you dare treat me like a girl, you treat me like a black belt, I've earned that right!" Oh, Christ, my jaw drops, I'm thinking "shut up, shut up, what are you doing?" My wife is not what you would call a shy person. Rickson looks down and says, "you are right, my friend, I apologize." From that day forward he kind of adopted her. Every time he needed somebody to use to show a technique, he used her. Every time he partnered with someone for drills, he did with her. (I'm still jealous.) Worked RNC with her till the cows came home. She has one nasty choke, no foolin'.

This goes on for the following year. Every month or so, he would come in for three days. After a few months I brought my top black belts. After a while I had him come to my dojo. I limited the classes to thirty people, about a hundred were watching. It was nuts. The following month I had him back again to teach my police department. I had told the bosses "we need to seriously change our DT program."
Again, he wasn't teaching pure BJJ, but rather, how to do what we do while on the ground, and how to control people. After that weekend they gave me Carte Blanche to do whatever the hell I wanted to in DT. It was sweet! 

When the first UFC came on tv, I was with a big group of guys to watch it. Everyone started to bet on who would win. When I saw Rickson's kid brother was fighting, I covered all bets. They thought I was crazy. I almost felt guilty. _Almost_. I won eight hundred bucks. 

A couple years later my wife and I moved to Maui. Our dogs were in quarantine. (standard procedure)
Rickson had told us his brother teaches there. We went to the University of Hawaii to train with Relson. Eventually ended up going to his house and taking privates from one of his purple belts in his garage.

When quarantine was over we moved to Maui. Rickson had a school there at the time. Romalo Barros, Rickson's first black, belt ran it. It was a whole lot of fun.

I've often said I was the luckiest person in the world when it came to Martial Arts. And I ain;t kidding when I say that. Just in the right place at the right time for some unknown reason. Consider this - the first three Jits guys I ever rolled with were Rickson, Relson and Romalo. I mean, WTF, I don't deserve that...but I'll take it. 

Here's a couple pics you might get a kick out of.

My wife and her teacher.







My sergeant, who benched 500 pounds at the time, and wrestled his whole life. Rickson treated him like a baby. Honest to God, like a baby cradled in his arms.






I have another pic that's really cool, one of the oddest experiences rolling I've ever had. I'll see if I can find it. Maybe you can explain it to me.

Sorry for the long post.


----------



## elder999

Charlemagne said:


> Don't know where it came from, or who started it.  I don't think it is unique to the Gracie family though.


A bunch of that "90%" went like this:

One guy *hits* the other guy, aaannnd......

........._the other guy goes to the ground!_


----------



## Hanzou

Buka said:


> I used to train with a lot of people. Back in 92, one of them, Joe, was a Jeet Kune Do Instructor. One day I stopped by to say hi as I was passing through that town. He says I should come down on Friday and plan on spending the weekend there. Says his Jits instructor is coming to teach all weekend. Some guy name of "Hickson". So I go. (Joe was a purple belt at the time) We trained Fri, Sat and Sun. Talk about open your eyes, damn. Rickson wasn't teaching us straight BJJ, rather, he was teaching us how to apply what we do while on the ground.
> 
> The following month was the same, three days training with Hickson. This time my wife came. Like the first time, there was only a handful of people. (can you imagine?) Rickson is one of the nicest people I've ever met, a true gentleman. So....while rolling on Saturday, Rickson lets my wife submit him, as he only does with women and little kids. (at least at that time) She slams him on the shoulder and barks, "Don't you dare treat me like a girl, you treat me like a black belt, I've earned that right!" Oh, Christ, my jaw drops, I'm thinking "shut up, shut up, what are you doing?" My wife is not what you would call a shy person. Rickson looks down and says, "you are right, my friend, I apologize." From that day forward he kind of adopted her. Every time he needed somebody to use to show a technique, he used her. Every time he partnered with someone for drills, he did with her. (I'm still jealous.) Worked RNC with her till the cows came home. She has one nasty choke, no foolin'.
> 
> This goes on for the following year. Every month or so, he would come in for three days. After a few months I brought my top black belts. After a while I had him come to my dojo. I limited the classes to thirty people, about a hundred were watching. It was nuts. The following month I had him back again to teach my police department. I had told the bosses "we need to seriously change our DT program."
> Again, he wasn't teaching pure BJJ, but rather, how to do what we do while on the ground, and how to control people. After that weekend they gave me Carte Blanche to do whatever the hell I wanted to in DT. It was sweet!
> 
> When the first UFC came on tv, I was with a big group of guys to watch it. Everyone started to bet on who would win. When I saw Rickson's kid brother was fighting, I covered all bets. They thought I was crazy. I almost felt guilty. _Almost_. I won eight hundred bucks.
> 
> A couple years later my wife and I moved to Maui. Our dogs were in quarantine. (standard procedure)
> Rickson had told us his brother teaches there. We went to the University of Hawaii to train with Relson. Eventually ended up going to his house and taking privates from one of his purple belts in his garage.
> 
> When quarantine was over we moved to Maui. Rickson had a school there at the time. Romalo Barros, Rickson's first black, belt ran it. It was a whole lot of fun.
> 
> I've often said I was the luckiest person in the world when it came to Martial Arts. And I ain;t kidding when I say that. Just in the right place at the right time for some unknown reason. Consider this - the first three Jits guys I ever rolled with were Rickson, Relson and Romalo. I mean, WTF, I don't deserve that...but I'll take it.
> 
> Here's a couple pics you might get a kick out of.
> 
> My wife and her teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sergeant, who benched 500 pounds at the time, and wrestled his whole life. Rickson treated him like a baby. Honest to God, like a baby cradled in his arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have another pic that's really cool, one of the oddest experiences rolling I've ever had. I'll see if I can find it. Maybe you can explain it to me.
> 
> Sorry for the long post.



Okay, now I'm INSANELY jealous....


----------



## Charlemagne

Hanzou said:


> Okay, now I'm INSANELY jealous....



Yep.  I have no problem admitting that at all.


----------



## Charlemagne

OK, putting aside my jealousy for the moment and getting back to the topic at hand, one of the things I do like with what Gracie Barra has done in their curriculum is that they are not afraid to pull from other systems to round out their game. This seems to happen mostly in the advanced curriculum, but they are OK with adding Judo throws, Wrestling takedowns, Catch Wrestling neck cranks, and Sambo Leg Locks to their BJJ.  I admit that I like this openness to other ideas, as long as it is grounded in solid fundamentals of position, and a distinction is made between sport and self-defense.  As near as I can tell, their Fundamentals program is still solid Blue Belt BJJ material, with some MMA striking on the ground added in for the self-defense aspect that it brings. I don't know enough about what they do to say more than that.  They also collaborate with noted Judoka such as Mike Swain from time to time.






The Ribeiro brothers have a Judo for BJJ class as well, which makes sense, and they also collaborate and even train with noted Judoka, which is cool to see.










Of course, someone should probably call Mike Swain and let him know that Gracie Barra has their history on the Gi wrong because once he hears that, there is no way he will want to train with them anymore.


----------



## Steve

Buka said:


> I used to train with a lot of people. Back in 92, one of them, Joe, was a Jeet Kune Do Instructor. One day I stopped by to say hi as I was passing through that town. He says I should come down on Friday and plan on spending the weekend there. Says his Jits instructor is coming to teach all weekend. Some guy name of "Hickson". So I go. (Joe was a purple belt at the time) We trained Fri, Sat and Sun. Talk about open your eyes, damn. Rickson wasn't teaching us straight BJJ, rather, he was teaching us how to apply what we do while on the ground.
> 
> The following month was the same, three days training with Hickson. This time my wife came. Like the first time, there was only a handful of people. (can you imagine?) Rickson is one of the nicest people I've ever met, a true gentleman. So....while rolling on Saturday, Rickson lets my wife submit him, as he only does with women and little kids. (at least at that time) She slams him on the shoulder and barks, "Don't you dare treat me like a girl, you treat me like a black belt, I've earned that right!" Oh, Christ, my jaw drops, I'm thinking "shut up, shut up, what are you doing?" My wife is not what you would call a shy person. Rickson looks down and says, "you are right, my friend, I apologize." From that day forward he kind of adopted her. Every time he needed somebody to use to show a technique, he used her. Every time he partnered with someone for drills, he did with her. (I'm still jealous.) Worked RNC with her till the cows came home. She has one nasty choke, no foolin'.
> 
> This goes on for the following year. Every month or so, he would come in for three days. After a few months I brought my top black belts. After a while I had him come to my dojo. I limited the classes to thirty people, about a hundred were watching. It was nuts. The following month I had him back again to teach my police department. I had told the bosses "we need to seriously change our DT program."
> Again, he wasn't teaching pure BJJ, but rather, how to do what we do while on the ground, and how to control people. After that weekend they gave me Carte Blanche to do whatever the hell I wanted to in DT. It was sweet!
> 
> When the first UFC came on tv, I was with a big group of guys to watch it. Everyone started to bet on who would win. When I saw Rickson's kid brother was fighting, I covered all bets. They thought I was crazy. I almost felt guilty. _Almost_. I won eight hundred bucks.
> 
> A couple years later my wife and I moved to Maui. Our dogs were in quarantine. (standard procedure)
> Rickson had told us his brother teaches there. We went to the University of Hawaii to train with Relson. Eventually ended up going to his house and taking privates from one of his purple belts in his garage.
> 
> When quarantine was over we moved to Maui. Rickson had a school there at the time. Romalo Barros, Rickson's first black, belt ran it. It was a whole lot of fun.
> 
> I've often said I was the luckiest person in the world when it came to Martial Arts. And I ain;t kidding when I say that. Just in the right place at the right time for some unknown reason. Consider this - the first three Jits guys I ever rolled with were Rickson, Relson and Romalo. I mean, WTF, I don't deserve that...but I'll take it.
> 
> Here's a couple pics you might get a kick out of.
> 
> My wife and her teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sergeant, who benched 500 pounds at the time, and wrestled his whole life. Rickson treated him like a baby. Honest to God, like a baby cradled in his arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have another pic that's really cool, one of the oddest experiences rolling I've ever had. I'll see if I can find it. Maybe you can explain it to me.
> 
> Sorry for the long post.


This is an awesome story.


----------



## lklawson

Ironbear24 said:


> 90% of all fights go to the ground.


*The "90% of all fights go to the ground" Myth examined and deconstructed*

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Charlemagne said:


> the majority of the fights I have been in have gone to the ground.


Not exactly a scientifically sound "Data Sample." I've spoken with people who claim that they've been in countless fights and never once were they, personally, on the ground.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Charlemagne said:


> Don't know where it came from, or who started it.  I don't think it is unique to the Gracie family though.


I do.  I did a lot of research on it.  Wrote an article.  Posted said article here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Charlemagne

lklawson said:


> Not exactly a scientifically sound "Data Sample."



Didn't claim it was.


----------



## lklawson

Hanzou said:


> The methodology behind that stat is if there's people fighting one another, they're going to start striking each other, then clinch, then attempt to wrestle each other to the ground, then attempt to control on the ground. That methodology comes from Maeda, not the Gracie clan.


No.  That's not where the Statistic came from.  It may be what the "theory of combat" came from but it was definitely used to promote that theory of combat yet not the source of it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Charlemagne

lklawson said:


> I do.  I did a lot of research on it.  Wrote an article.  Posted said article here.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Thanks.  

I would hold back and the claim that you have done "research" on this.  What was written in that article is not research, not at all.  There are research designs which examine what others have done, namely Systematic or Meta-Analytic Reviews, and what you did does not meet the criteria for either of those designs. 

In regards to the actual information presented, at best, your article suggests that the claim of 90%, or even the claim of most, _may_ be incorrect.  It certainly doesn't prove that, nor does it even suggest that the opposite claim is true (most fights stay standing). Absence of data in one direction does not equal data in the opposite.  In fact, what you wrote supports their claim in a way that you did not intend.  The statement that the UFC's and the Gracie in Action challenge fights were not about street fights but rather about trained martial artists is true.  What that suggests is that trained martial artists who had been practicing their craft for years, and knew ahead of time that they were going to be fighting ground specialists, were unable to stop themselves from being taken to the ground. In addition, your statement of "probably false" is unfounded, and should be removed from your article if you want to have even the veneer of credibility.  You cannot in one sentence make the claim that we really don't know, and then in another place claim that a particular number is probably wrong.

What someone really has to ask themselves is in this day and age, given all that has happened in martial arts over the past 20 years or so is, do you believe that someone who claims to be training for self-defense, but has no ground game other than some sort of "anti-grappling", is actually as prepared as they should be.  I don't.  Others will have to make their own decision. Your article suggests that you have, and that is good to see.


----------



## lklawson

Charlemagne said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I would hold back and the claim that you have done "research" on this.  What was written in that article is not research, not at all.  There are research designs which examine what others have done, namely Systematic or Meta-Analytic Reviews, and what you did does not meet the criteria for either of those designs.


Historical Research (reading documents, "interviewing" people, etc.)  No, I didn't set up a scientific study to test a hypothesis, but if you're going to gripe at me about my use of the term, then you should also gripe at my friends who are Professors in History departments or go gripe at professional writers who "research" their stories.



> In regards to the actual information presented, at best, your article suggests that the claim of 90%, or even the claim of most, _may_ be incorrect.


That's right.  Because no one knows the actual statistic is.  You saw that, right?




> It certainly doesn't prove that, nor does it even suggest that the opposite claim is true (most fights stay standing).


What the hell are you on about?  I certainly didn't write that.  I wrote where the claim came from, based on "research" of the primaries who made the claim and then I wrote that there is currently no way to actually put a statistic to how many fights go to the ground one way or another.  

I think you got so caught up in proving your Scientific Credentials by myopically limiting the term research into an experimental field that you didn't really bother reading the article for content.  Certainly not if you somehow think that I wrote that most fights stay standing.  



> Absence of data in one direction does not equal data in the opposite.


That's nice.  Now go actually read the article and find out what it actually said.



> In fact, what you wrote supports their claim in a way that you did not intend.


And... umm... what exactly is the claim you think I was advancing?  Do you need a hint?



> The statement that the UFC's and the Gracie in Action challenge fights were not about street fights but rather about trained martial artists is true.  What that suggests is that trained martial artists who had been practicing their craft for years, and knew ahead of time that they were going to be fighting ground specialists, were unable to stop themselves from being taken to the ground.


That's what you think the article was about?!?!  You got so caught up in being smart that you forgot to see what was being said.



> In addition, your statement of "probably false" is unfounded, and should be removed from your article if you want to have even the veneer of credibility.  You cannot in one sentence make the claim that we really don't know, and then in another place claim that a particular number is probably wrong.


Well, first, friend, if it seems that I'm not too worried about whether or not you think I'm "credible," then you get a gold star on your lab coat.  Second, simple stats indicates that one point out of an infinite linear progression has an infinite-to-one chance of being accurate.  But even if we reduce it to only whole numbers in the 0%-100% scale, 90 is only one out of 100.  Put your propeller hat on and tell me what are the odds for 1/100 because, apparently, I'm having trouble with that.  



> What someone really has to ask themselves is in this day and age, given all that has happened in martial arts over the past 20 years or so is, do you believe that someone who claims to be training for self-defense, but has no ground game other than some sort of "anti-grappling", is actually as prepared as they should be.  I don't.  Others will have to make their own decision. Your article suggests that you have, and that is good to see.


Who gives a crap?  Apparently you don't because that was the very last paragraph of the article, which you would have known if you hadn't been working so hard at proving how smart you are and, instead, actually read what was written.

Hopefully you'll respond reasonably and we can move on, but experience has shown me that you probably won't.  Most of the time when I see people on the net beating their chests about how smart they are, it's a dead conversation.


----------



## Charlemagne

lklawson said:


> Historical Research (reading documents, "interviewing" people, etc.)  No, I didn't set up a scientific study to test a hypothesis, but if you're going to gripe at me about my use of the term, then you should also gripe at my friends who are Professors in History departments or go gripe at professional writers who "research" their stories.


  Historians, and I am sure your friends would fall into this category, follow an established method with standards in regards to what evidence is used, how it is analyzed, interpreted, etc.  That's why they get to use use the term.



> That's right.  Because no one knows the actual statistic is.  You saw that, right?


  Yes I did, I see now looking again that you said "possibly false' instead of just "false".  I missed that the first time around.




> I think you got so caught up in proving your Scientific Credentials by myopically limiting the term research into an experimental field that you didn't really bother reading the article for content.  Certainly not if you somehow think that I wrote that most fights stay standing.


  And I think you came into the thread looking to show how more you know than anyone else by claiming "I did a lot of research on it".  And when you got called on what you wrote not being research, you are upset.



> That's nice.  Now go actually read the article and find out what it actually said.


 I did, and I admitted the error that I made.




> That's what you think the article was about?!?!  You got so caught up in being smart that you forgot to see what was being said.


  I saw exactly what you said.  You made the statement that the Gracie in Action tapes being between trained martial artists in prearranged matches does not translate to street fights with the average person.  I agree, but as I noted, I believe it shows that even in trained persons, who know what is coming, that being taken to the ground is very hard to avoid.  That was my point.  I wasn't disagreeing with your information, just looking at what it means from a different perspective.



> Well, first, friend, if it seems that I'm not too worried about whether or not you think I'm "credible," then you get a gold star on your lab coat.  Second, simple stats indicates that one point out of an infinite linear progression has an infinite-to-one chance of being accurate.  But even if we reduce it to only whole numbers in the 0%-100% scale, 90 is only one out of 100.  Put your propeller hat on and tell me what are the odds for 1/100 because, apparently, I'm having trouble with that.


  I agree that we don't have reliable data to base percentages on.  However, we are talking about the percentage of things which have happened in the past, not the probability of a random number being selected between 0 - 100 in the future, but I get your point, and agree with it.



> Who gives a crap?  Apparently you don't because that was the very last paragraph of the article, which you would have known if you hadn't been working so hard at proving how smart you are and, instead, actually read what was written.


  Yes, it was the last part of the article.  I agreed with what you wrote.



> Hopefully you'll respond reasonably and we can move on, but experience has shown me that you probably won't.  Most of the time when I see people on the net beating their chests about how smart they are, it's a dead conversation.


  There is someone who came into this thread beating their chest about how smart they are.  He looks a great deal like the guy wrote this: 




			
				lklawson said:
			
		

> I do. I did a lot of research on it. Wrote an article. Posted said article here.




Having said that, I admit that I could have handled things a bit better in my response to you as well.  We've both had our moments, and I would rather move on to a more productive discussion if you are willing.


----------



## Ironbear24

Charlemagne said:


> I believe it shows that even in trained persons, who know what is coming, that being taken to the ground is very hard to avoid.



It is still really great for their advertising campaign because the gracies had experience in Vale Tudo competitions, that was pretty much mma so they were dealing with grapplers and strikers alike, the challengers more than often only dealt with the striker.

So it was more of a case of extremely experienced jiu jitsu guys vs various people.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> It is still really great for their advertising campaign because the gracies had experience in Vale Tudo competitions, that was pretty much mma so they were dealing with grapplers and strikers alike, the challengers more than often only dealt with the striker.
> 
> So it was more of a case of extremely experienced jiu jitsu guys vs various people.



I agree with your first part, but I am not sure I understand your point from "_that was pretty much MMA.._." on.  Can you clarify?


----------



## Ironbear24

Charlemagne said:


> I agree with your first part, but I am not sure I understand your point from "_that was pretty much MMA.._." on.  Can you clarify?



Vale Tudo had little to no rules and had grappling and striking.


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> Vale Tudo had little to no rules and had grappling and striking.



OK.  I totally agree with your point then, I just thought I was missing something.  

Just got done training, so I am beat, and my mind isn't working!  Mea culpla.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

elder999 said:


> So who knows what other B.S. they're perpetrating?


I actually have an issue with this, but from a different angle. The actual misinformation about the gi is fairly harmless. Hell, nearly every school I trained in reported some myth about the uniform (belts simply got dirty until they're black, for example). My problem is the lack of looking into the background and understanding where things came from. I think there's real value in understanding some of these things - the same sort of value we find in the information that comes out of silly "basic research" studies, which often lead to things like Velcro. Not researching and learning the background of an art (and even things like the uniform, so as to understand that this sign is inaccurate) leads me to expect the instructor to simply parrot what he/she was taught, rather than digging for deep understanding and teaching what's appropriate for each student.

The sign is simply a potential indicator of a larger symptom, IMO. If there's more like that, I'd avoid that instructor.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> The methodology behind that stat is if there's people fighting one another, they're going to start striking each other, then clinch, then attempt to wrestle each other to the ground, then attempt to control on the ground. That methodology comes from Maeda, not the Gracie clan.
> 
> In your case, the fights ended in the second or third phase for whatever reason which is perfectly fine. Bjj 's methodology is that if you're dealing with someone physically much stronger than you, and they take you to the ground, then your ground skill will save you. On the flip side, you could be skillful enough to take them down on your terms and your ground skill will allow you to dominate them from that range.
> 
> The entire point of Bjj is to never let someone dominate YOU while you're on the ground. The most lethal damage in an encounter usually happens from that range.


This is a much more cogent explanation (and argument) than usual version. This reflects why I work on ground work in my own training and with students. And it makes a better case for the BJJ approach than many of the over-committed proponents I've met.


----------



## Charlemagne

gpseymour said:


> I actually have an issue with this, but from a different angle. The actual misinformation about the gi is fairly harmless. Hell, nearly every school I trained in reported some myth about the uniform (belts simply got dirty until they're black, for example). My problem is the lack of looking into the background and understanding where things came from. I think there's real value in understanding some of these things - the same sort of value we find in the information that comes out of silly "basic research" studies, which often lead to things like Velcro. Not researching and learning the background of an art (and even things like the uniform, so as to understand that this sign is inaccurate) leads me to expect the instructor to simply parrot what he/she was taught, rather than digging for deep understanding and teaching what's appropriate for each student.
> 
> The sign is simply a potential indicator of a larger symptom, IMO. If there's more like that, I'd avoid that instructor.



The sign is the same at every Gracie Barra location in the English speaking world I imagine.  They were put together by someone higher up in their corporate structure, and the local instructor has zero to do with it.  

I get your points, and even agree with many of them, I just don't that part to be misunderstood.  

Cheers,


----------



## Hanzou

Ironbear24 said:


> It is still really great for their advertising campaign because the gracies had experience in Vale Tudo competitions, that was pretty much mma so they were dealing with grapplers and strikers alike, the challengers more than often only dealt with the striker.
> 
> So it was more of a case of extremely experienced jiu jitsu guys vs various people.



They dealt with more strikers because striking was far more popular in American MA than grappling. That was largely thanks to Bruce Lee and other martial arts movie stars who popularized flashy striking and taking down 20 people all by themselves. The vast majority of people believed that you could simply knock out a wrestler or a Judoka with a few well placed blows.

The first UFC completely demolished that belief and that's why it's considered a pivotal moment in the history of martial arts here in America.

As for your argument that it was "more experienced JJ guys vs various people", many of the opponents that popped up in the Gracie in action duels and the UFC were professional fighters and instructors. To pretend like they were just some "bums off the street" is complete nonsense.


----------



## Ironbear24

Hanzou said:


> They dealt with more strikers because striking was far more popular in American MA than grappling. That was largely thanks to Bruce Lee and other martial arts movie stars who popularized flashy striking and taking down 20 people all by themselves. The vast majority of people believed that you could simply knock out a wrestler or a Judoka with a few well placed blows.
> 
> The first UFC completely demolished that belief and that's why it's considered a pivotal moment in the history of martial arts here in America.
> 
> As for your argument that it was "more experienced JJ guys vs various people", many of the opponents that popped up in the Gracie in action duels and the UFC were professional fighters and instructors. To pretend like they were just some "bums off the street" is complete nonsense.



I never said they weren't talented. I said they were ill prepared, when you got a family who has been competing in similar competitions for years vs people who only fought in their own bubble, well you know what will happen.

The karateka often fought with only other strikers and the boxer often only fought other boxers and so on.


----------



## Charlemagne

The "groin" argument has been brought up earlier in the thread, and in fact, it seems to come up anytime the topic of grappling and self-defense is under discussion.  First of all, as many have noted, a groin strike is not some sort of skeleton key.  Secondly, against an experienced grappler who knows how to control your arms and manage distance, they aren't as easy to pull off as one might think.  Neither are bites.


----------



## drop bear

Charlemagne said:


> The "groin" argument has been brought up earlier in the thread, and in fact, it seems to come up anytime the topic of grappling and self-defense is under discussion.  First of all, as many have noted, a groin strike is not some sort of skeleton key.  Secondly, against an experienced grappler who knows how to control your arms and manage distance, they aren't as easy to pull off as one might think.  Neither are bites.



One of our guys got head butted in the groin during a take down drill last night. 

He wasn't allowed to stop.  But he did groan a bit.


----------



## Charlemagne

drop bear said:


> One of our guys got head butted in the groin during a take down drill last night.
> 
> He wasn't allowed to stop.  But he did groan a bit.



Cup check!


----------



## moonhill99

I sure hope you not using Judo or BJJ submission in self defense? The idea is to get mad guy on the ground and runway not fight him on the ground. If you have Judo or BJJ  to get up ASAP and runway not fight him on the ground.

More time you fight him on the ground more people will jump in and fight.

Look at the ghetto fights on youtube and most of the time people are jumping in when they are fighting on the ground.


----------



## Kickboxer101

moonhill99 said:


> I sure hope you not using Judo or BJJ submission in self defense? The idea is to get mad guy on the ground and runway not fight him on the ground. If you have Judo or BJJ  to get up ASAP and runway not fight him on the ground.
> 
> More time you fight him on the ground more people will jump in and fight.
> 
> Look at the ghetto fights on youtube and most of the time people are jumping in when they are fighting on the ground.


I've got to agree I've nothing against grappling or ground fighting but honestly putting yourself on the floor in a street fight isn't a smart move. If you get knocked down or pushed then that's fine but you see it in mma a guy gets clinched and pulls guard then proceeds to get pounded for the round. Also adding on to what you said putting yourself on the floor in a night club or the street is so risky due to things like broken glass or drug needles or anything else. Jiu jitsu 100% works but personally Im never going to be in a hurry to get on the floor in a street fight


----------



## Kickboxer101

Ironbear24 said:


> In all honesty if you want home defense just get a cheap pistol from a pawn shop, most of the time burglars are going to be armed and no matter what the martial arts is a gun tends to beat you.
> 
> Unless of course they are stupid enough to try and shoot you up close. Bjj is a good workout for sure though, my sifu is a blue belt in it and sometimes shows us a few things from it. Hopefully it helps me lose some weight, right now I am sitting at 212 when I had previously lost 8 pounds. It seems to jump up and down between those 8.


I thought your sift did judo according to your other posts


----------



## Kickboxer101

lklawson said:


> *The "90% of all fights go to the ground" Myth examined and deconstructed*
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


If it is true I must be the full 10% because I've been involved in about 4 fights unfortunately and not 1 has come anywhere near hitting the ground


----------



## Ironbear24

Kickboxer101 said:


> I thought your sift did judo according to your other posts



Sift? Sifu? My old one did kenpo with judo my new one does Shou shu with Jiu Jitsu.


----------



## Kickboxer101

Ironbear24 said:


> Sift? Sifu? My old one did kenpo with judo my new one does Shou shu with Jiu Jitsu.


Seriously? I think it's pretty obvious what I meant


----------



## Ironbear24

Kickboxer101 said:


> Seriously? I think it's pretty obvious what I meant




Just giving your auto correct a hard time. Yeah my old sifu did American kenpo with Judo and my current one does Shou shu with Jiu jitsu.


----------



## Kickboxer101

Ironbear24 said:


> Just giving your auto correct a hard time. Yeah my old sifu did American kenpo with Judo and my current one does Shou shu with Jiu jitsu.


Fair enough  maybe one day I'll add some grappling but right now I'm happy knocking people out..in the ring I might add lol


----------



## Ironbear24

Kickboxer101 said:


> Fair enough  maybe one day I'll add some grappling but right now I'm happy knocking people out..in the ring I might add lol



You do what you do so long as it makes you satisfied. If you are interested in only kickboxing then it would just waste your time to learn a grappling art. That would be like me learning weapons, why bother if I never plan to go into that style of competition?

Some guys will tell you that you have to take grappling and striking to be "well rounded" but what so you have to be well rounded for? Your sport doesn't require that from you so I wouldn't bother.

Then again grappling is a lot of fun so you might enjoy it. Just learn how to fall otherwise you're gonna have a bad time. I thought I had the meme for that but I couldn't find it lol.


----------



## Kickboxer101

Ironbear24 said:


> You do what you do so long as it makes you satisfied. If you are interested in only kickboxing then it would just waste your time to learn a grappling art. That would be like me learning weapons, why bother if I never plan to go into that style of competition?
> 
> Some guys will tell you that you have to take grappling and striking to be "well rounded" but what so you have to be well rounded for? Your sport doesn't require that from you so I wouldn't bother.


Nah I'm not doing it for the whole your not a good fighter if you don't grapple I've never bought into all that but just to try it out but honestly from watching training videos from actual classes it seems quite boring to me not something I'd fancy spending 2 hours doing no disrespect to the style but just not my thing and I'm just simply never going to want to roll around on the floor.


----------



## Ironbear24

Kickboxer101 said:


> Nah I'm not doing it for the whole your not a good fighter if you don't grapple I've never bought into all that but just to try it out but honestly from watching training videos from actual classes it seems quite boring to me not something I'd fancy spending 2 hours doing no disrespect to the style but just not my thing and I'm just simply never going to want to roll around on the floor.



I know it looks boring. I used to feel the same way and still do think it is boring to see, but doing it is a lot different from watching it. It is a lot of fun to do it, at least I think so I know not everyone will.

If you want more stand up grappling try Judo, Judo spent more time with tachi waza (standing technique) then ne waza (foreplay)


----------



## moonhill99

Kickboxer101 said:


> Seriously? I think it's pretty obvious what I meant


 
I thought Ironbear24 hates grapplers? Base on is other threads?

I can see what Ironbear24 is trying to learn here. To learn it in way to get the mad guy on the ground and running away than fighting on the ground.

If that is the case than yea he may want to find Judo club that spends time doing self defense that does the dirty moves.

 But too bad lot of BJJ and Judo are sports fighting than self defense. But if there was a BJJ school and Judo school that did self defense may be that is what Ironbear24 wants?


----------



## Ironbear24

moonhill99 said:


> I thought Ironbear24 hates grapplers? Base on is other threads?
> 
> I can see what Ironbear24 is trying to learn here. To learn it in way to get the mad guy on the ground and running away than fighting on the ground.
> 
> If that is the case than yea he may want to find Judo club that spends time doing self defense that does the dirty moves.
> 
> But too bad lot of BJJ and Judo are sports fighting than self defense. But if there was a BJJ school and Judo school that did self defense may be that is what Ironbear24 wants?



I never said hate grapplers.


----------



## moonhill99

Ironbear24 said:


> I know it looks boring. I used to feel the same way and still do think it is boring to see, but doing it is a lot different from watching it. It is a lot of fun to do it, at least I think so I know not everyone will.
> 
> If you want more stand up grappling try Judo, Judo spent more time with tachi waza (standing technique) then ne waza (foreplay)



It is want you like Ironbear24 and why yo are doing it. Where some people really like Judo, BJJ and wrestling and don't really like stand up striking and other people are the opposite.

It like saying do you like driving a pick up truck or sports car. Some people love sports cars and hate pick up trucks and other people are opposite. Some people could like both or in middle.

If it mainly for self defense that is other thing.


----------



## Charlemagne

moonhill99 said:


> But too bad lot of BJJ and Judo are sports fighting than self defense. But if there was a BJJ school and Judo school that did self defense may be that is what Ironbear24 wants?



There are plenty of BJJ schools that teach self-defense.  That is less true for Judo schools, but they exist as well.


----------



## Hanzou

moonhill99 said:


> I sure hope you not using Judo or BJJ submission in self defense? The idea is to get mad guy on the ground and runway not fight him on the ground. If you have Judo or BJJ  to get up ASAP and runway not fight him on the ground.
> 
> More time you fight him on the ground more people will jump in and fight.
> 
> Look at the ghetto fights on youtube and most of the time people are jumping in when they are fighting on the ground.



And let's say you magically get them to the ground, but you can't runaway? What do you do then? 

There was a case of a karate girl in Australia who got taken down by an attacker, managed to get up, but got taken right back down to the ground again, and she got pretty battered in the process. The only way she escaped that situation was a third party coming to her rescue.

Sometimes you just can't run away, and if someone took you down the first time, nothing stops them from doing it to you again and again. However, if you break their limbs and/or choke them unconscious, that prevents them from continuing the attack, and then you can really get away.


----------



## Skullpunch

Hanzou said:


> And let's say you magically get them to the ground, but you can't runaway? What do you do then?
> 
> There was a case of a karate girl in Australia who got taken down by an attacker, managed to get up, but got taken right back down to the ground again, and she got pretty battered in the process. The only way she escaped that situation was a third party coming to her rescue.



I remember hearing about that, and as I recall she was actually holding her own decently well at the time.  Granted there's no telling what would have happened if the other guy wasn't there to intervene but still, it's not like the attacker was just completely having his way with her before the intervention, she may very well have been able to fight him off on his own if she had to.

That's not to say that more ground skills wouldn't have improved her chances, obviously they would have, but she wasn't as defenseless as you're making her sound either.


----------



## moonhill99

Ironbear24 said:


> I never said hate grapplers.



You said it looked boring and going on to say in other thread why grapplers vs striking.

Thread called.

_*Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts? *_

So you think people in MMA emphasis grappling too much?


----------



## Ironbear24

moonhill99 said:


> You said it looked boring and going on to say in other thread why grapplers vs striking.
> 
> Thread called.
> 
> _*Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts? *_
> 
> So you think people in MMA emphasis grappling too much?



That doesn't mean I hate grapplers. I myself train in grappling arts as well as striking arts, so that would be hypothetical of me to hate them.

I was simply asking a question about why do people generally believe a striker will always lose to a grappler.

As far as mma goes, if they want more viewers then they should really consider putting some limitations in grappling or at least the ground game because that majority of people do find that boring to watch.

When many people are finding a televised sport boring to watch then that is obviously bad for ratings and bad for business.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Ironbear24 said:


> That doesn't mean I hate grapplers. I myself train in grappling arts as well as striking arts, so that would be hypothetical of me to hate them.
> 
> I was simply asking a question about why do people generally believe a striker will always lose to a grappler.
> 
> As far as mma goes, if they want more viewers then they should really consider putting some limitations in grappling or at least the ground game because that majority of people do find that boring to watch.
> 
> When many people are finding a televised sport boring to watch then that is obviously bad for ratings and bad for business.


To be fair your instructor trains grappling and he shows you a little bit. Not really the same thing since your instructor is a low level grappler who isn't really qualified to teach it.

As for mma what are they supposed to do dumb it down for the random drunks watching. You've called people who talk trash about martial arts ignorant idiots yet you want to dumb down a combat sport where grappling is a large part of it to appeal to those type of people.


----------



## Ironbear24

Kenpoguy123 said:


> To be fair your instructor trains grappling and he shows you a little bit. Not really the same thing since your instructor is a low level grappler who isn't really qualified to teach it.
> 
> As for mma what are they supposed to do dumb it down for the random drunks watching. You've called people who talk trash about martial arts ignorant idiots yet you want to dumb down a combat sport where grappling is a large part of it to appeal to those type of people.



There is still my Judo experience which I use often. My sifu also continues to train in bjj and travels all the way to los Angeles for it every weekend.

As far as what mma should do, yes dumb it down. The difference between your comparison and my statement is that "the drunk idiots" are the life blood of the franchise because without their money and their views there would be no ufc, and would be no televised mma.

If the viewers are not being entertained that is an obvious problem because they will cease to watch said programming, which of course means less money. It is very obvious rolling on the floor is not entertaining to many people and that has been an ongoing problem since it has been conceived.

Is it effective? Sure it is, but it sure as hell is not fun to watch. People find scoring knockouts and drawing blood far more entertaining that that, it's the reason boxing still has more revenue than ufc and probably always will.

As far my instructors qualifications he is very qualified to show me the grappling in Shou shu, he himself said he doesn't wish to teach us bjj until his instructors tell him it's alright for him to do it.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Ironbear24 said:


> There is still my Judo experience which I use often. My sifu also continues to train in bjj and travels all the way to los Angeles for it every weekend.
> 
> As far as what mma should do, yes dumb it down. The difference between your comparison and my statement is that "the drunk idiots" are the life blood of the franchise because without their money and their views there would be no ufc, and would be no televised mma.
> 
> If the viewers are not being entertained that is an obvious problem because they will cease to watch said programming, which of course means less money. It is very obvious rolling on the floor is not entertaining to many people and that has been an ongoing problem since it has been conceived.
> 
> Is it effective? Sure it is, but it sure as hell is not fun to watch. People find scoring knockouts and drawing blood far more entertaining that that, it's the reason boxing still has more revenue than ufc and probably always will.
> 
> As far my instructors qualifications he is very qualified to show me the grappling in Shou shu, he himself said he doesn't wish to teach us bjj until his instructors tell him it's alright for him to do it.


Well ufcs been around since 93 and mma as a whole a lot longer and it's still very popular the way it is so it seems the drunks seem to be more knowledgable than you are about it


----------



## Spinedoc

Charlemagne said:


> Yep.  Any Gracie Jiu-Jistu affiliate, Pedro Sauer affiliate, Valente Brothers, Royce Gracie, or Relson Gracie affiliate would be a good place to look for a more defensive focused BJJ.  The "Traditional Kodokan Judo" affiliate clubs might work as well, but I think there was something wrong with that organization from what I remember.  Not sure though.
> 
> Dave Camarillo is as legit as they come, no question about that in my mind.  Also, any Ribeiro Jiu-Jitsu affiliate is likely to have some Judo mixed with their BJJ as well.  Saulo Ribeiro is a big fan of Judo, and he and his brother Xande have a Judo for BJJ class at their HQ.
> 
> As weird as their name sounds, it is my understanding that these guys are legit as well: John Saylor Shingitai Jujitsu Association Ground fighting Martial Arts and Jujitsu Exercise Training Videos and Strength Building Equipment



Yep, I train in Guerilla jiu jitsu in addition to Aikido. Dave is a great, great guy, and actually seems a little interested in seeing how I ultimately blend some Aikido with his style of JJ. I train under Coach Dwyer who is a brown belt student in guerilla jiu jitsu under Jared Feieranbend, who is a black belt under Dave Camarillo. Jared is simply incredible.


----------



## Kickboxer101

Ironbear24 said:


> There is still my Judo experience which I use often. My sifu also continues to train in bjj and travels all the way to los Angeles for it every weekend.
> 
> As far as what mma should do, yes dumb it down. The difference between your comparison and my statement is that "the drunk idiots" are the life blood of the franchise because without their money and their views there would be no ufc, and would be no televised mma.
> 
> If the viewers are not being entertained that is an obvious problem because they will cease to watch said programming, which of course means less money. It is very obvious rolling on the floor is not entertaining to many people and that has been an ongoing problem since it has been conceived.
> 
> Is it effective? Sure it is, but it sure as hell is not fun to watch. People find scoring knockouts and drawing blood far more entertaining that that, it's the reason boxing still has more revenue than ufc and probably always will.
> 
> As far my instructors qualifications he is very qualified to show me the grappling in Shou shu, he himself said he doesn't wish to teach us bjj until his instructors tell him it's alright for him to do it.


The causals in the crowd who are drunk do understand grappling. They cheer at takedowns or cheer when they pass the guard or when they're in the clinch chant knee. People are more knowledge these days you seem to be the one who doesn't understand that


----------



## Ironbear24

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Well ufcs been around since 93 and mma as a whole a lot longer and it's still very popular the way it is so it seems the drunks seem to be more knowledgable than you are about it



Are you upset? You seem to be offended about something. Compare the ratings of boxing and UFC and you'll see that many people prefer to watch boxing over ufc. There is a reason for that.

If people find rolling around on the floor entertaining to watch then good for them, most people however don't and the stats show that.


----------



## Ironbear24

Kickboxer101 said:


> The causals in the crowd who are drunk do understand grappling. They cheer at takedowns or cheer when they pass the guard or when they're in the clinch chant knee. People are more knowledge these days you seem to be the one who doesn't understand that



A takedown is entertaining, what happens after that though? Lay and pray? I understand it perfectly, what you don't understand is that many do not find it entertaining.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Ironbear24 said:


> Are you upset? You seem to be offended about something. Compare the ratings of boxing and UFC and you'll see that many people prefer to watch boxing over ufc. There is a reason for that.
> 
> If people find rolling around on the floor entertaining to watch then good for them, most people however don't and the stats show that.


Nope not at all I don't get upset when people have different opinion to me. Yeah there's a reason for it mma has only been in the public eye for a very short period of time boxing has been around for centuries that's a fact.

And hey so you're now saying that your instructor doesn't teach you jiu jitsu sorry it's hard to keep up with all your stories


----------



## Charlemagne

Spinedoc said:


> Yep, I train in Guerilla jiu jitsu in addition to Aikido. Dave is a great, great guy, and actually seems a little interested in seeing how I ultimately blend some Aikido with his style of JJ. I train under Coach Dwyer who is a brown belt student in guerilla jiu jitsu under Jared Feieranbend, who is a black belt under Dave Camarillo. Jared is simply incredible.



https://smile.amazon.com/Aikido-BJJ...&qid=1467741650&sr=8-1&keywords=aikido+to+bjj

I presume you have seen this?  I figured I would mention it just in case.


----------



## Kickboxer101

Ironbear24 said:


> A takedown is entertaining, what happens after that though? Lay and pray? I understand it perfectly, what you don't understand is that many do not find it entertaining.



Like I said they cheer when they pass the guard and by the way not all ground fights are like there's plenty of really fun pure ground fights (Diego Sanchez vs nick Diaz, joe Stevenson vs Luke cummo, joe Stevenson vs nick Diaz) it doesn't sound like you understand it to me as you think all grappling is lay and pray and says who? You seem to be making that assumption what evidence of that is there? Mma is huge and I'd say it is bigger than boxing and kickboxing maybe not in numbers but in star power and actual potential look at this week there's like 4 ufc cards this week that are all sold out arenas and god knows how many millions will watch it on tv. So I think enough people find it entertaining. You'll probably say I'm upset something like you did to kenpoguy but it's not upset it's facts and I'm impartial because Im not a grappler but I know enough about the sport to understand it.

Like what's been said it seems to be you who doesn't understand it. Seeing as your the one that's calling grappling lay and pray and someone claiming to train in grappling and still call it that then well something's not right here.


----------



## Ironbear24

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Nope not at all I don't get upset when people have different opinion to me. Yeah there's a reason for it mma has only been in the public eye for a very short period of time boxing has been around for centuries that's a fact.
> 
> And hey so you're now saying that your instructor doesn't teach you jiu jitsu sorry it's hard to keep up with all your stories



Ok so you are condescending to everyone on the forum then? Mma has been in the public eye since the early 90's. That is more than enough time to get more ratings than boxing. It started to gain more steam in early 2000's and even then that is still enough time.

I doubt there is anyone who can hear the phrase UFC and say "never heard of it."


----------



## Ironbear24

Kickboxer101 said:


> Like I said they cheer when they pass the guard and by the way not all ground fights are like there's plenty of really fun pure ground fights (Diego Sanchez vs nick Diaz, joe Stevenson vs Luke cummo, joe Stevenson vs nick Diaz) it doesn't sound like you understand it to me as you think all grappling is lay and pray and says who? You seem to be making that assumption what evidence of that is there? Mma is huge and I'd say it is bigger than boxing and kickboxing maybe not in numbers but in star power and actual potential look at this week there's like 4 ufc cards this week that are all sold out arenas and god knows how many millions will watch it on tv. So I think enough people find it entertaining. You'll probably say I'm upset something like you did to kenpoguy but it's not upset it's facts and I'm impartial because Im not a grappler but I know enough about the sport to understand it.
> 
> Like what's been said it seems to be you who doesn't understand it. Seeing as your the one that's calling grappling lay and pray and someone claiming to train in grappling and still call it that then well something's not right here.



Lay and pray is a phrase used by fans not by me. It is used to describe controlling an opponent using grappling methods. It is a respectable tactic that does of course require skill (especially against another grappler) but a total snooze fest in my opinion when it comes to viewing it.


----------



## Spinedoc

Charlemagne said:


> https://smile.amazon.com/Aikido-BJJ...&qid=1467741650&sr=8-1&keywords=aikido+to+bjj
> 
> I presume you have seen this?  I figured I would mention it just in case.



I have not. I have been interested in, and talked with Roy Dean about his experience, as he is also combining judo, BJJ, and Aikido..it's been interesting so far. They really are all so similar in principle.....Thanks!!!


----------



## Charlemagne

Ironbear24 said:


> There is still my Judo experience which I use often. My sifu also continues to train in bjj and travels all the way to los Angeles for it every weekend.
> 
> As far as what mma should do, yes dumb it down. The difference between your comparison and my statement is that "the drunk idiots" are the life blood of the franchise because without their money and their views there would be no ufc, and would be no televised mma.
> 
> If the viewers are not being entertained that is an obvious problem because they will cease to watch said programming, which of course means less money. It is very obvious rolling on the floor is not entertaining to many people and that has been an ongoing problem since it has been conceived.
> 
> Is it effective? Sure it is, but it sure as hell is not fun to watch. People find scoring knockouts and drawing blood far more entertaining that that, it's the reason boxing still has more revenue than ufc and probably always will.
> 
> As far my instructors qualifications he is very qualified to show me the grappling in Shou shu, he himself said he doesn't wish to teach us bjj until his instructors tell him it's alright for him to do it.




I would suggest that MMA is increasing at a rate that equals that of Boxing's decline.  There are a few "superfights" that draw a good deal of attention, but other than that, I see little evidence of boxing's market superiority. Most of what is there, is the older generation.  The younger are growing up in a world were MMA is king and boxing is rarely shown, and almost always a let down in the actual fight.  It pains me to say this as I love boxing, and am really not a huge MMA guy at all. 

As for the rest, I would be against anything that dumbs down the grappling in MMA.  Leave it be, and let the sport grow organically.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Ironbear24 said:


> Ok so you are condescending to everyone on the forum then? Mma has been in the public eye since the early 90's. That is more than enough time to get more ratings than boxing. It started to gain more steam in early 2000's and even then that is still enough time.
> 
> I doubt there is anyone who can hear the phrase UFC and say "never heard of it."


 looks like you're the one getting upset because I'm disagreeing with you and questioned your instructors grappling teaching I'm just saying my opinion you're the one getting upset i better watch my back.

Yes mma has been around since the 90s but it was banned in almost every state not on ppv and barely sold on tickets and had the government trying to ban it, it only started getting truly big in 2005 with the ultimate fighter


----------



## Ironbear24

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Um who are am I condescending looks like you're the one getting upset because I'm disagreeing with you I'm just saying my opinion you're the one getting upset i better watch my back.
> 
> Yes mma has been around since the 90s but it was banned in almost every state not on ppv and barely sold on tickets and had the government trying to ban it, it only started getting truly big in 2005 with the ultimate fighter



"The drunks know more about it than you."

"Sorry I can't up with your stories."

And no you don't need to watch your back. If this were even face to face it would never result in violence. I been trying hard to change afterall.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Ironbear24 said:


> "The drunks know more about it than you."
> 
> "Sorry I can't up with your stories."
> 
> And no you don't need to watch your back. If this were even face to face it would never result in violence. I been trying hard to change afterall.


That's not everyone that's just you and yeah they do seem to know more since your the one claiming its dull and boring and as for your stories then yeah because you've been saying I've trained in judo when a kenpo instructor just showed you a few moves then you say your new instructor has been teaching you jiu jitsu now you say he's only teaching San shu grappling and wouldn't teach you bjj. I haven't said anything that can't be backed up. Now this conversations going no where I'm out


----------



## Spinedoc

Charlemagne said:


> Amazon.com: Aikido to BJJ: Marcio Feitosa, Derek Nakagawa, Dave Contreras: Movies & TV
> 
> I presume you have seen this?  I figured I would mention it just in case.




I like this combination of Roy Dean's.....


----------



## Ironbear24

Kenpoguy123 said:


> That's not everyone that's just you and yeah they do seem to know more since your the one claiming its dull and boring and as for your stories then yeah because you've been saying I've trained in judo when a kenpo instructor just showed you a few moves then you say your new instructor has been teaching you jiu jitsu now you say he's only teaching San shu grappling and wouldn't teach you bjj. I haven't said anything that can't be backed up. Now this conversations going no where I'm out



The kenpo was taught with Judo alongside it. He showed me a few things and said they were from jiu jitsu, later on he made that statement that he won't teach it unless he is given the ok. I don't know if something happened that changed his mind or what but I'm just being honest here. I didn't realize I had to give you the word for word run down of how things happen.

And what about simply not finding something entertaining, means "you don't understand it?" It simply means you don't find it entertaining.

And by all means feel feel to leave, no need to waste either of our time.


----------



## Charlemagne

Spinedoc said:


> I like this combination of Roy Dean's.....



Interesting.  I'd be interested in seeing that done a bit more dynamically and against a resisting opponent. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but it is hard to get a feel for things when they are presented that way.  I get that it was a demo, so this is not a slam.


----------



## Paul_D

Charlemagne said:


> Interesting.  I'd be interested in seeing that done a bit more dynamically and against a resisting opponent. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but it is hard to get a feel for things when they are presented that way.


The flip side of that is why would you continue to try and make it work if he's resisitng, just switch to a techqniue that with works in the direction of the force he is using to resist.


----------



## Charlemagne

Paul_D said:


> The flip side of that is why would you continue to try and make it work if he's resisitng, just switch to a techqniue that with works in the direction of the force he is using to resist.



By resisting opponent, I was intending someone that is not compliant, not one who is resisting that specific movement.  Since that video seemed to be a demo, the person that Roy Dean was working with was just going along for the ride and allowing him to do whatever he wanted.  He even landed in the proper position for him and stayed there.  Again, it's a demo, so I get why they were doing things that way, but I would like to see the same techniques done in a live sparring (aka, against a resisting opponent) manner.


----------



## Spinedoc

Charlemagne said:


> By resisting opponent, I was intending someone that is not compliant, not one who is resisting that specific movement.  Since that video seemed to be a demo, the person that Roy Dean was working with was just going along for the ride and allowing him to do whatever he wanted.  He even landed in the proper position for him and stayed there.  Again, it's a demo, so I get why they were doing things that way, but I would like to see the same techniques done in a live sparring (aka, against a resisting opponent) manner.



Shihonage (four corner throw) is actually a fairly dangerous technique. It's probably the technique that has injured more aikido students than any other. There are actually reported deaths from it in Japan. Apparently a couple of times, younger students at University got into it so much that they were throwing uke so hard that they suffered head injuries and broken necks. A few people died. I've known several people here who injured their shoulders pretty bad.

I was showing some of my BJJ classmates a version of shihonage koshinage that I like, and one of them asked about resistance, I simply said, okay, let's look at that, and then I showed them every place I could simply break the arm if someone really wanted to fight it, the point being that, once I get the arm extended into shihonage, you've already lost at that point, kind of like when someone locks in a kimura, and you probably want to fall as gently as possible out of the shihonage if you want to continue to fight. Now, resisting getting into shihonage is an entirely different manner, and one of the reasons we practice henka waza a fair amount, for myself, I'd probably do an udekimenage, or simply reverse into a sankyo or other movement. LOL....as my Shidoin says......"Always another way".....before he slams my butt.


----------



## Charlemagne

Spinedoc said:


> Shihonage (four corner throw) is actually a fairly dangerous technique. It's probably the technique that has injured more aikido students than any other. There are actually reported deaths from it in Japan. Apparently a couple of times, younger students at University got into it so much that they were throwing uke so hard that they suffered head injuries and broken necks. A few people died. I've known several people here who injured their shoulders pretty bad.
> 
> I was showing some of my BJJ classmates a version of shihonage koshinage that I like, and one of them asked about resistance, I simply said, okay, let's look at that, and then I showed them every place I could simply break the arm if someone really wanted to fight it, the point being that, once I get the arm extended into shihonage, you've already lost at that point, kind of like when someone locks in a kimura, and you probably want to fall as gently as possible out of the shihonage if you want to continue to fight. Now, resisting getting into shihonage is an entirely different manner, and one of the reasons we practice henka waza a fair amount, for myself, I'd probably do an udekimenage, or simply reverse into a sankyo or other movement. LOL....as my Shidoin says......"Always another way".....before he slams my butt.



Perhaps I am remembering things incorrectly, but when I trained a Japanese JJ back in the day (long time ago and not for very long) I seem to remember doing that a bit more dynamically.  Perhaps I am mistaken.  I recognize that not everything is going to be able to be done full speed all the time.  However, for obvious reasons, I do get a bit antsy when I hear that something is too dangerous for going full speed.  I'm not an Aikido expert by any means, so perhaps it can be pulled off live.  Do you have any thoughts on that?


----------



## Spinedoc

Charlemagne said:


> Perhaps I am remembering things incorrectly, but when I trained a Japanese JJ back in the day (long time ago and not for very long) I seem to remember doing that a bit more dynamically.  Perhaps I am mistaken.  I recognize that not everything is going to be able to be done full speed all the time.  However, for obvious reasons, I do get a bit antsy when I hear that something is too dangerous for going full speed.  I'm not an Aikido expert by any means, so perhaps it can be pulled off live.  Do you have any thoughts on that?




Oh sorry, that's not what I was saying.... no, you can go full speed, but my point was that when someone has you in full extended shihonage, you really don't want to resist. The ukemi gets more challenging at speed, but if you watch this video, Tissier Shihan does it at slow speeds first, but then at higher speeds, watch uke spin when he locks in the shihonage, and extends the arm, if uke resists, he only has to bring the arm down over his shoulder to break the elbow...at that point, the best option for uke is to take the fall and hopefully be able to get up to try another attack....


----------



## drop bear

Charlemagne said:


> Perhaps I am remembering things incorrectly, but when I trained a Japanese JJ back in the day (long time ago and not for very long) I seem to remember doing that a bit more dynamically.  Perhaps I am mistaken.  I recognize that not everything is going to be able to be done full speed all the time.  However, for obvious reasons, I do get a bit antsy when I hear that something is too dangerous for going full speed.  I'm not an Aikido expert by any means, so perhaps it can be pulled off live.  Do you have any thoughts on that?



If you looked long and hard enough you could probably find it in akijitsu.





Actually he had a hack at it at about the 5:12 mark.


----------



## Charlemagne

drop bear said:


> Actually he had a hack at it at about the 5:12 mark.



OK, so I chuckled at that one.


----------



## Paul_D

Charlemagne said:


> Again, it's a demo, so I get why they were doing things that way, but I would like to see the same techniques done in a live sparring (aka, against a resisting opponent) manner.


I'm not sure why you would want to see it in sparring, as sparring has nothing to do with self defence, whch is what the thread is about.

Bear in mind in SD you wouldn't just attempt this (or any other techqniue) you would strike pre-emptively, and depending on how they fall/stagger/end up, you would apply a technique that was relevent *if* it presented itself to you.

I'm not sure there would be much resitence 'in the street' after a pre-emptive strike.


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## Ironbear24

Paul_D said:


> I'm not sure why you would want to see it in sparrign, as sparring has nothing to do with self defnce, whch is what teh thrad si about.
> 
> Bear in mind in SD you wouldn't just attempt this (or any other techqniue) you would strike pre-emptively, and depending on how they fall/stagger/end up, you would apply a technique that was relevent *if* it presented itself to you.
> 
> I'm not sure there would be much resitence 'in the street' after a pre-emptive strike.



Didn't someone in bjj says the majority of it isn't uses in self defense?


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## Paul_D

Ironbear24 said:


> Didn't someone in bjj says the majority of it isn't uses in self defense?


The majority of what?


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## lklawson

Spinedoc said:


> Shihonage (four corner throw) is actually a fairly dangerous technique. It's probably the technique that has injured more aikido students than any other. There are actually reported deaths from it in Japan. Apparently a couple of times, younger students at University got into it so much that they were throwing uke so hard that they suffered head injuries and broken necks. A few people died. I've known several people here who injured their shoulders pretty bad.


Death from Shihonage?  How, seriously borking the escape ukemi and landing on their own head?  That's the best I've got.  Shihonage is designed to hyperextend or dislocate the shoulder joint (depending on which version, of course), but the only way I can see death is due to a depressed skull fracture from a screwed up ukemi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Spinedoc

lklawson said:


> Death from Shihonage?  How, seriously borking the escape ukemi and landing on their own head?  That's the best I've got.  Shihonage is designed to hyperextend or dislocate the shoulder joint (depending on which version, of course), but the only way I can see death is due to a depressed skull fracture from a screwed up ukemi.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk




That's pretty much what apparently happened. It's the only technique that I am aware of in Aikido practice that has actually killed someone. I've never seen it, but there have been anecdotal reports.

Aikido and Injuries by Stanley Pranin


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## Charlemagne

Paul_D said:


> I'm not sure why you would want to see it in sparring, as sparring has nothing to do with self defence, whch is what the thread is about.


  I could not disagree more.  Sparring is not the end-all, be-all, but it is an essential component of training.  If you never validate your system with someone who is trying to prevent you from doing the things you want to do, I believe you are setting yourself up for failure in the event that you actually have to use it in the real world.  



> Bear in mind in SD you wouldn't just attempt this (or any other techqniue) you would strike pre-emptively, and depending on how they fall/stagger/end up, you would apply a technique that was relevent *if* it presented itself to you.


  I agree with that completely.  



> I'm not sure there would be much resitence 'in the street' after a pre-emptive strike.


  Unless of course your strike isn't near as good as you think it is, you miss your intended target, etc.


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## drop bear

lklawson said:


> Death from Shihonage?  How, seriously borking the escape ukemi and landing on their own head?  That's the best I've got.  Shihonage is designed to hyperextend or dislocate the shoulder joint (depending on which version, of course), but the only way I can see death is due to a depressed skull fracture from a screwed up ukemi.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



If you launched someone with a hip throw into spikes or something.


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## Ironbear24

drop bear said:


> If you launched someone with a hip throw into spikes or something.



Don't forget to shout fatality afterward and strike a cool pose.


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