# What do you think of this



## fist of fury (May 21, 2002)

I haven't had a chance to look at the clips yet. My internet connection at work sucks.
http://www.jasonsbackyardmixedmartialarts.com/


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## theneuhauser (May 21, 2002)

ok,
id dont know how everybody else feels about this stuff. backyard brawling was cool when i was in high school. defenitely not that cool anymore. but devoting youre entire website to sunday afternoon fight club sessions does not score well with the honeys.


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## tonbo (May 21, 2002)

Hey, Darwinism in action!!

Yeah, the concept may be cool, but just the fact that the person says that they wear headgear so he doesn't get sued.....and then posts clips of concussions, broken and cracked ribs, and various other such injuries......uh....has anyone signed a waiver?  If not, then he is in for some SERIOUS legal trouble if he ain't careful.

'Course, it serves 'em all right, in my opinion.  Backyard brawls like this are not smart, and have more risks than benefits.  

Last, but not least.....who are they proving all this stuff TO?  I mean, yeah, when I was like 10, my friends and I would have swordfights with plastic swords, and I won most of those matches.  SO?  

Yay.  You are king of the backyard fights, dude.  And, amazingly, it's......*gasp*....YOUR YARD!!!  What a coincidence!!!   

Said it before, and here it is again:  Yeah, I'm impressed.  :shrug: 

Peace--


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## Danny (May 21, 2002)

Very funny.  Wonder if the guy in video #5 learned the importance of wearing a cup.  Seriously you can tell just by those clips that those guys couldn't figh there way out of a paper bag.


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## Klondike93 (May 21, 2002)

How did you find this site? These guys are whacked! They checked their commonsense at the door I believe  


:asian:


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## islandtime (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by thenuhauser _
> 
> *ok,
> idscore well with the honeys. *



..........................................................................
Speaking of Shelias.... 
Isn't there a series of video tapes with ladies 'rasslin in the back yard???? Now that is more like it.. 



Gene Gabel


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## Seig (May 22, 2002)

Looking at the photos, I think I saw one that looked suspiciously like Gou...Gou, have you been schooling those boys?


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## Monkey King (May 22, 2002)

I don't trust anybody who hangs their American flag backwards. Besides, it looks like a lot of them are afraid to get hit.

Oh well...maybe they should try it blindfolded.:shrug:


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## Seig (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> 
> *I don't trust anybody who hangs their American flag backwards. Besides, it looks like a lot of them are afraid to get hit.
> 
> Oh well...maybe they should try it blindfolded.:shrug: *


I saw the guy get ruptured, I'd be afraid to take that hit.  My voice is squeeky enough


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## fist of fury (May 22, 2002)

Yeah they just seem to be flailing around alot for trained fighters. Some claim they aren't trained. I made the mistake of clicking on the 2 birds vid first and for a second thought I was watching a gay porno.


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## tunetigress (May 22, 2002)

My 10 year old daughter, little 'Tashtigress' loved this site!  She sat and clicked on vid after vid, laffin her fool little head off, yellin "Mommy, look at THIS idiot, Mommy, look, that guy just fell down and nobody even hit him!!  Mommy look! Ha ha ha ha!!"  We both say that the site is great entertainment, and if you need a hearty laff, do be sure to go have a look!  :rofl:   :rofl:  :rofl:


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## Despairbear (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> * Seriously you can tell just by those clips that those guys couldn't figh there way out of a paper bag. *





I would have to agree, little or no training. As well as no controll.



Despair Bear


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## Klondike93 (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> *Very funny.  Wonder if the guy in video #5 learned the importance of wearing a cup.  Seriously you can tell just by those clips that those guys couldn't figh there way out of a paper bag. *



What if the paper bag was wet, would they then have a chance?



:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (May 23, 2002)

Welp, I hate to be of a different opinion on this one but....

I reviewed ALL the clips..think theres like 50  of them, anyway....most of the clips feature fighters with little or no martial arts skill but a few of them show some very interesting techniques and skills.  Some of the fighters look like they've done a fair amount of training.  

Personally I don't think it looks that bad,  theres going to be a few injuries that's for sure but they are definately learning as they go.  I do something similar (only I hope to god it doesnt look as funny as the inexperienced fighters clips)  We suit up and go at it.   I find it the best way to find out what really works.  Of course... the people I do this with are all experienced martial artists so... it's a bit different than what I was seeing.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Yari (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> 
> *I haven't had a chance to look at the clips yet. My internet connection at work sucks.
> http://www.jasonsbackyardmixedmartialarts.com/ *



Good joke   

/Yari


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## ikenpo (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Welp, I hate to be of a different opinion on this one but....
> 
> *




Exactly,

They may look crazy, they may BE crazy, but these are the exact idiots that are gonna be attacking you and anyone can get a shot in on a given day. So laugh now, but be aware....

jb


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## vincefuess (May 26, 2002)

These are just punks who watch too much WWF.  I love the guy who BREAKS HIS OWN RIBS by pulling the guy down on him (WTF was he thinking?) he's lucky the guy didn't land in his face.  Staff fighting without a cup, AND raising your leg (MORON).  The guy in the concussion vid could have learned those moves watching ANY UFC tape.

Me and my buddies in high school had better brawls just playing on the beach.

The reason these guys do this is because they couldn't get a "Sheila" on their best day anyway- gotta do something with all that angst...

"JASON'S BACKYARD MIXED BEER NUTS" is more like it.

:fart:


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## Damian Mavis (May 26, 2002)

You guys have watched ALL the videos right?  The ones about injuries are funny ya but the rest have some nifty fights in them.  Er.. A few nifty fights in there if you look for them.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Klondike93 (May 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *You guys have watched ALL the videos right?  The ones about injuries are funny ya but the rest have some nifty fights in them.  Er.. A few nifty fights in there if you look for them.
> 
> ...



Umm, well, err....... naw they don't. Watching the ones with the injuries was enough to see the true "genius" of these braniacs.
The others really just confirmed it.

:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (May 26, 2002)

Well off the top of my head I know I learned at least one technique that was very interesting. Think they called it the triple sweep.  I was very impressed with the fluidity and speed of his execution and the fact that it actually worked.  Some of these guys have at least some skill.  If you object to the way they are training.... alot of serious martial artists train similiarly.  It's either that or get into real fights.  I don't know about you but it is very important that I learn from actual combat or as close to it every once in a while or I feel like I'm kidding myself.  It's no more dangerous than fighting in the ring which I do on a regular basis.... I swear I'm in a constant state of healing.

Like I said... a few of the videos had some interesting things in it, the rest looked silly.  Just gotta keep an objective mind while going through them.

I'm curious though... to those that hated the videos, what was it you really didn't like?  The way they train or the fact that most of them had no skill?  I'm curious.  

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Danny (May 26, 2002)

The thing that stuck in my craw was the fact that in allot of those videos fighter A would grab fighter B, and fighter B instead of using his 4 free limbs to clobber fighter A who is now completely open and has two of his limbs tied up grabbing fighter B, fighter B grabs fighter A and they end up rolling around of the ground.


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## Damian Mavis (May 27, 2002)

Hmmm, have you ever fought someone full contact that was grabbing you and pulling you to the ground?  Unless you know how to stand up grapple you have a hard time not going down.  Even in Muay Thai, when someone grabs me for the clinch my strikes to his body are ineffective.  When I practice shoot fighting and my opponent tries to take me down my strikes are still ineffective because hes keeping me from getting a good base to strike from (taking me down to the ground makes it hard to throw a solid strike)  The only strikes I can sometimes get off that do anything while pushed off balance are elbows and I only get a couple before I'm on my back.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## D.Cobb (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by islandtime _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I just want the drum on who's been teachin' youse blokes to speak strine?

--Dave
:rofl: 
(Translation: I just want to know who has been teaching you guys to speak Australian?)


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## islandtime (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



.................................................................................
Thats easy:
Baywatch OZ
Fosters Beer Commercials
Crock Dundee


Btw: Left coast is "Bettys"

Gene Gabel:asian:


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## D.Cobb (May 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by islandtime _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



EEEEEEEWWWWWWWW!!

[/B][/QUOTE]
Fosters Beer Commercials[/B][/QUOTE]

The only people in Australia that drink Fosters, are tourists who think that they look like a local by drinking that watered down cats pee.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Crock Dundee[/B][/QUOTE]
The funny thing about this guy is, he sounds American to us, but his use of the lingo is fair dinkum.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Btw: Left coast is "Bettys"[/B][/QUOTE]
Ok you got me on that one. I'm stumped...

Who knows, maybe I'm about to learn a new word in my own lingo.

--Dave:rofl:


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## islandtime (May 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> 
> *
> Ok you got me on that one. I'm stumped...
> ...


.....................................................
Not your coast,,ours Hollywierd and such. 
Bettys is more of surfer-speak
I am surprised you dont know of it. With Oz being the surfers paradise and all.

I guesss I am just left with Babewatch OZ.
Speaking of which..one of the cable networks had "Pam's Day Off" this past Monday with all day Babewatch.. Whew!!!


GEne Gabel


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## Klondike93 (May 29, 2002)

So what is the beer of choice in Australia?


Oh wait a minute, I know...............Budweiser!!! It's now conquered the world  


:asian:


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## GouRonin (May 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Looking at the photos, I think I saw one that looked suspiciously like Gou...Gou, have you been schooling those boys? *



Nope. None of them is me. I don't know any of them but if they lived closer I'd be out there with them.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *They may look crazy, they may BE crazy, but these are the exact idiots that are gonna be attacking you and anyone can get a shot in on a given day. So laugh now, but be aware....*



I agree. Maybe they are a little nutty, and maybe they should be spending a little more time in a class learning some material and how to use it but these are the guys that are out there doing it.

No one ever seems to make fun of the Dog Brothers and their gathering of the pack.

You need to spend time learning the material but you also need to spend time working it. When was the last time you went down to a local bar with your jock on to see if the art you are studying has any useful applications. I wouldn't recommend it but this may be the next best thing. They just need to spend more time in the classroom.


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## Damian Mavis (May 29, 2002)

"When was the last time you went down to a local bar with your jock on to see if the art you are studying has any useful applications."

That only seems to work when I wear mine on my head.  People really hate that.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## sweeper (May 30, 2002)

I don't know..  I tihnk it's somewhat difficult to test your fighting ability under "real" situations. First if you are just brawling with freinds chances are you are using the same style (not always but usualy). Odds are if it isn't the same style it's still not a style you are bound to come up against "on the street". Second if you do go down to the bar to test your ability..  What are the odds of getting a good fighter? I mean the kind of fighter that might attack you some other time?


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## Damian Mavis (May 30, 2002)

Bah! nobody liked my joke so I'll post seriously again.

"You need to spend time learning the material but you also need to spend time working it. "

I totally agree with Gou on this one.  There has to be times in a martial artists training that he uses his fighting skills in as realistic a way as possible.  If not how can you ever be sure you know what your doing?  My eyes were opened up when all my carefully planned counters and attacks were null and void when I went up against a raging 220 pound monster.  And that was just a training excercise!  If it had been real I would have been killed.  (note: I am only 160 pounds and was pummelled like a rotweiller with a squeekee toy)

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Kirk (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Bah! nobody liked my joke so I'll post seriously again.
> *



I liked it .. I just wanted to post more than just "ROFLMAO!!!"
as I'm proned to do, maybe a little too often.


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## GouRonin (May 30, 2002)

I liked your joke too. At least you were not wearing your jock on your face pretending you were Darth Vader or something.
:jediduel:


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## Kirk (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I liked your joke too. At least you were not wearing your jock on your face pretending you were Darth Vader or something.
> :jediduel: *



HAHAHAHA!  If I were any kind of artist at all, I'd draw the smiley
for that one!


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## Damian Mavis (May 30, 2002)

Well now you've done it, turn up your speakers.

funny

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## tunetigress (May 30, 2002)

Oh my good gracious sakes alive that has got to be one of the funniest things I've seen in ages!  Damian Mavis, I now hold your sense of humor in the highest regard!  My suggestion to viewers, do give yourself 101/2 uninterrupted (child-free) minutes to watch this thru, and be sure you are wearing your >>Depends<< due to the risk of laffin way too hard for your own good. :rofl: 
Tunetigress would like to suggest that Damian's status be raised to the  rank of   oh, hmmmm,  maybe Supreme Lord-High Entertainment Specialist???  Honestly, somebody out there has gotta buy Lord Mavis a milk for this contribution!!!!   :rofl:


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## tonbo (May 30, 2002)

Okay, Damian......you win!!

That was truly priceless.....:rofl:  :rofl: 

Peace--


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## Kirk (May 30, 2002)

I only took so long to reply because I was LAUGHING 
HYSTERICALLY all this time!  That was TOO fricken funny!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Kempo_Dude (May 30, 2002)

Ok.. not bad


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## meltdown51 (May 31, 2002)

the skill level of thier techniques is a joke, and after watching the videos i find it hard to believe any of them have had that much martial arts training and if they have it is time they found a new instructor. 

joe


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## Shinzu (Jun 1, 2002)

definitely something not to be proud of.  its all fun and games until someone gets hurt.  and if you still do it after someone does... than you are just plain dumb!


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 2, 2002)

Guys.... I kinda think your missing the point here, you should be getting hurt at least a bit in your martial arts training don't you think?  We aren't practicing ballet right?  Not trying to put down anyones point of view but if you guys are condemning the way these guys train based on how much they get hurt..... I'm in a constant state of healing from my martial arts training, isn't everyone else?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Guys.... I kinda think your missing the point here, you should be getting hurt at least a bit in your martial arts training don't you think?  We aren't practicing ballet right?  Not trying to put down anyones point of view but if you guys are condemning the way these guys train based on how much they get hurt..... I'm in a constant state of healing from my martial arts training, isn't everyone else?
> 
> ...



Damian,

I would have to agree and disagree with you at
the same time. Let me explain. I have minor
injuries from time to time. A broken Finger, a
sore wrist, or hyper-extended elbow. I once
and only once had a dislocated/bruised rib.

So, yes people get hurt. But the level of injury
is different. I believe people are commenting
on how serious these injuries are and how
long they have to be out to heal properly to
come back and 'play' again.

This is just my take on it as I have been reading.
I could be wrong and have been wrong in the past,
and I can guarantee that I will be again.

Rich


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## Kirk (Jun 2, 2002)

Definitely ... I hope I *never*  have to take a stick to the
groin!        :wah:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 2, 2002)

It is brain dead twits like these guys who give martial arts and martial artists a bad name.  These guys are hurting legitimate martial artists with their backyard crap!


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## Shinzu (Jun 2, 2002)

i plan on getting hurt in my TSD training, and i'm not afraid to.  it is something that comes with the teritory.

but to deliberately hurt your partner is not the true way for martial artists!  we train to defend ourselves.  not to see who is the last one standing.

these guys are just another prime example of people who don't get what its all about, making a true martial artists job even harder.


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 2, 2002)

I fully understand what martial arts are all about and there is no malice in my heart when I knock my opponent out but it does happen.  And I never for one second feel angry when I get hurt either.  Blah, what the hecks my point?  I don't really know, I think I train differently than a majority of martial artitsts and I am unable to explain myself without sounding like an *** so I'll just stop posting on this one heh.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Bod (Jun 5, 2002)

If they are stupid/brave enough to train in this way then let them. At least they've put the movies up on the web so that we can benefit in some way from their 'training'. Once upon a time all martial arts were practiced closer to the real thing, i.e. challenge matches and the like.

Some of the moves and missed opportunities were woeful and their throwing skills were on the whole appalling, why they weren't sweeping the back leg when they were holding the front leg is anyone's guess - out of politeness probably - and their total lack of uchimata style throws was to the fighters' detriment, but I liked the scissors takedown (banned in Judo because of the danger of all four legs snapping).

Watching the inexperienced but enthusiastic fight with a fear element present has got to be educational, because it resembles street fighting, and unless you've got honed counters for the more common moves and tactics you may just come unstuck.


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## tonbo (Jun 5, 2002)

Okay, give these guys some points for guts, but then take them away again for stupidity.

Yes, they are "working hard" at what they do, but not being very smart about it.  I'm actually surprised that they haven't had more injuries, and even more surprised that no one has sued them or attempted to have their antics stopped by the police.

The point is well taken that you will get hurt in your training at some point.  Even if you are just doing forms, the potential exists to pull muscles, throw out your arm, etc.  If you spar, up those chances about 50%--even when you are being careful, you can get tagged.

However, I don't think these guys are doing MA; at least, they are not doing them *well*.  Calling what they do "backyard martial arts" is like saying that the idiots who do "backyard wrestling" are training like "real" professional wrestlers.  Not a chance.  Yeah, they are going out and whomping on each other and taking the pain, but.......

.....is that bravery and strength, or just plain stupidity?

I weigh in on the latter, but to each his/her own.....

Peace--


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## lungshihpo (Jun 11, 2002)

this is jason,from this site,despite what you may think,nobody is out there to hurt any one,the injuries are posted only because people like to see things like that,the one's who dont like seeing injuries dont have to watch them, we get together and spar pretty hard,we have taped them now for awhile,thought we would make a website with the footage,were not just a bunch of punks trying to kill eachother,there is only a very few of us here that are trained,but that what we have the real class for,sundays at my house is practice for the ones who are trained.and a lot of the time the street fighters are the ones who show up.and to me,i think fighting guys like that is great training because your not going to get in a fight with a trained martial artists on the street unless you start it.it is guys just like this,and me and the other ones who are trained really get good practice,you can see what really works (for youself anyway).but thank for visiting my site and posting your opinions,just wanted to tell you despite what you see,i feel what we are doing is great training because like i said not everyone is a martial artist and anyone can  be beaten on any given day by anyone skilled or not!thanks again



                                                                                  Jason


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 11, 2002)

I agree

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## lungshihpo (Jun 23, 2002)

The site is now being updated,there will be more clips and options to do very soon,some new clips are there now.thanks


Jason


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## RyuShiKan (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> *  Seriously you can tell just by those clips that those guys couldn't figh there way out of a paper bag. *




I agree. It looks like Pee-Wee Herman meets The Three Stooges meets Pro Wrastlin'


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 26, 2002)

Honestly, I'd like to see some of the critics in this thread go up against a couple of the guys from that site.  How do you think you would fare?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Yari (Jun 26, 2002)

Jackass meets MA. That's what I started to think when I saw this.

I've seen alot more injuries in my MA carrer, than this.  And some that were more serious. I don't think I need some backyard fights to know that the stuff I do is dangerous (both for uke and tori).

And to what would happen if I meet them. We drink a beer and talk about it. 

/yari


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## RyuShiKan (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Honestly, I'd like to see some of the critics in this thread go up against a couple of the guys from that site.  How do you think you would fare?
> 
> ...



Your kidding right?


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## GouRonin (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> *Honestly, I'd like to see some of the critics in this thread go up against a couple of the guys from that site.  How do you think you would fare?*



I think they wouldn't make it out of the parking lot which is where I would be waiting for them with a baseball bat.
:EG:


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 26, 2002)

Bah Gou you're a cheater! haha Yes, yes i know there's no such thing as cheating when it comes to fighting.  But I was thinking more along the lines of an agreed upon combat were you can back out at any time.  No baseball bats allowed heh.  And on top of that.... you're not a critic!

RyuShinKan.......2 questions, did you bother to read this whole thread and did you bother to watch ALL the videos on the website?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 26, 2002)

As hard as it is I do tend to agree with Gou on this one, although I wouldn't be waiting with a baseball bat.  These guys are hurting serious martial artists by putting this crap out on the web where anyone with out a clue can think this is martial arts.

As for the question, "How do I think I would fare against any of them?" unfortunately I used to bounce in bars so i have had my share of real life combat.  And I will say right now that I would be able to hold my own and do damagae if neccessary.  But in a real life situation there is no winner if it escalates to violence.


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## GouRonin (Jun 26, 2002)

I'm not sure how you're agreeing with me Rob. I think that what these guys are doing is ok. Just that they need to be a bit more refined in how they do it. You know, spend more time learning the techniques rather than just trying to use them.


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 26, 2002)

Actually Rob, Gou is more in line with what I was thinking.  At least he was earlier in this thread.  As a Thai boxer you learn real quick the difference between winning and losing, surviving and dying.  All your skill in the world wont save you if you cant take a hit.  Theres always that lucky hit that lands square in your face when you thought you had a good defence.  These guys are definately learning how to take a hit.  I worry that people don't read the whole thread.... so I'll say it again:  watch ALL the videos, it quickly becomes apparent that most of them have no training...but then theres like 2 or 3 that do and they are pretty good at what they do.  Not to mention they are going to land up way tougher than your average martial artist and survive better in a real life conflict.  If you guys really dont like the way they train.... how the heck do you think the military trains?  They train for real, just like these guys.

Hell I'm still trying to master the "triple sweep" I saw in one of their videos, I'm sorry but that took skill and I doubt many other trained martial artists could pull it off so fluidly.  Go watch all the videos guys!  I mean the ones inside the site! Not the injury ones on the front page sheesh.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## GouRonin (Jun 26, 2002)

Vlad has this kewl kick where he uses the roundhouse kick from one guy to make him kick his friend as they attack you in tandem. It's neat.


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## lungshihpo (Jun 26, 2002)

Thank you I couldn't have said better my self,Gou,as far as the 2 or 3 of us that train in martial arts,we do practice formally through the week,then on sunday we try to put to use against ourselves and a bunch of guys that just like to fight and in which if you can see a big difference in their fighting as well,your seeing just clips no longer than 30 secs. long. so there is alot you dont see,after they mess up, if they were here to learn we show them what they did wrong,then on the other hand there is also people who come just to brawl and fight so yeah then your out to win the fight because a street fighters heart is BIG although there skills are inadequate,you have a fight on your hands, like damian said a punch can hit you square in the face just when you think your winning,so every fight that is like this is excellent training and yes it isn't always pretty,but if it works use it I always say,but damian has the exact Idea of what were doing here,so thanks to him,still what like to know what was so terrible?


Thanks
Jason


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 26, 2002)

For those of you that don't read the whole thread and don't know, the previous poster "lungshihpo" aka Jason is the host for the site we are talking about.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## RyuShiKan (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Yep, read it.
Yep, watched all the videos.


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 26, 2002)

And in all those videos you can honestly say you saw no level of skill in any of the combatants?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Chiduce (Jun 26, 2002)

I feel the martial skills in the video were undefined, with very little clarity of how any structured technique was executed.  I train my students in manner which explores these guys same type of reasoning. Yet the actual real world fighting is done with more definition on the part of attacker and defender. The attacker is not going to sit and spar for a specific amount of time in an actual violent street attack anyway. He will have mapped out a simple plan that works for him/her and stick to it. The defender then has to react with a set of actual defensive counters which will set-up, and fail the attack. I train my students to defend walk-bys, walk-ups, blind side on-rushes, side on-rushes and side walk-ups, striking after the pass, jog-bys etc,. The defender then is faced with his/her total body being of self-relaxing and feeling attention in experiencing the attacker's intention. The defender again learns that self-control helps to gain control of the violent attack. I feel that they need less sparring and more organization in defining the true roles of both participants. The real street fight for the attacker whether it is to go wacko, use striaight excessive force, or the element of surprise will always be pre-planned. Clubs will be a slightly different matter! Usually it will depend on the consumption of spirits and mental stability.  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## lungshihpo (Jul 1, 2002)

we have about 20 new clips in mpeg version,I would like to here some more opinion's,some are good,and some are funny,but i would still like to know what is so terrible?thanks

Jason


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 2, 2002)

"I feel the martial skills in the video were undefined"

Chiduce, I find real life fights to be brutal, aggressive and completely lacking any defined clearly executed techniques.  It's fast and furious and if you are skilled enough to throw a solid clear technique than great but I never had it happen that way for me.  

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *
> Chiduce, I find real life fights to be brutal, aggressive and completely lacking any defined clearly executed techniques. *



Their technique or yours?
So does that mean we should practice with our hands at our waist like the guys in the videos seem to do most of the time?
Should we throw wild "hay makers" like they do and what not or should we practice to throw better clean more well directed techniques?




> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> * It's fast and furious and if you are skilled enough to throw a solid clear technique than great but I never had it happen that way for me.
> Damian Mavis
> Honour TKD *




Maybe you should work on perfecting that area then.

Practicing full out is great and it gives you a sense of real timing, speed and power, plus you soon find the results of a missed block but if your aren't going to try and improve your technique then you are just wasting your time.


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## lungshihpo (Jul 2, 2002)

Yep, read it.
Yep, watched all the videos,by ryu


I dont believe that you watched all the clips,on my web stats there was no activity like that from japan,Maybe you did,maybe you didn't,I'd sure would like to see some clips of you executing pcompletely defined techniqus  technique against a wild,uncontrolled street fighter,how do you train?wondering what the critics to do that is so sufficient over  what I do!thanks



Jason


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *
> I dont believe that you watched all the clips,on my web stats there was no activity like that from japan,Maybe you did,maybe you didn't,I'd sure would like to see some clips of you executing pcompletely defined techniqus  technique against a wild,uncontrolled street fighter,how do you train?wondering what the critics to do that is so sufficient over  what I do!thanks
> Jason *



I kind of had a feeling if someone didn't give you "glowing revues" on what fabulous martial skills you poses that you would get your nose out of joint.


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 2, 2002)

"So does that mean we should practice with our hands at our waist like the guys in the videos seem to do most of the time?
Should we throw wild "hay makers" like they do and what not or should we practice to throw better clean more well directed techniques?"  

Exactly, WE should practice clear technique but our ATTACKERS can come at us wildly just like a real life fight, that is perfect training.

"Practicing full out is great and it gives you a sense of real timing, speed and power, plus you soon find the results of a missed block but if your aren't going to try and improve your technique then you are just wasting your time."

Couldn't agree with you more.  I've asked you before if you read all the videos and if you read the previous posts and you said you had but that last statement just proved thats not true.  There a couple of guys (Jason included) who DO train at this very moment and if you watch the videos and read whos in them you can see which guys have obvious technique and which ones are throwing haymakers.  Have you not seen the many no holds barred matches on TV?  They employ alot of the same methods of fighting and training, take him down, pin him and pummel him.  


"I kind of had a feeling if someone didn't give you "glowing revues" on what fabulous martial skills you poses that you would get your nose out of joint."

RyuShinKan, whats your problem? Its ok to disagree here, he has a right to ask you a simple question, hell he's not even angry hes just asking politely.  Why dont you just have a nice conversation with us instead of acting defensive?  

Did you get my reply to your second email?  I was worried it didn't get sent properly.  Your not exactly a nice person and  I'm really curious why?  I've met peope like you on message boards before and never had the chance to ask, what makes you so unfriendly?  This board is all about rational discussions and disagreeing on many different topics but we all respect each others opinion and keep talking.  You don't do that.  

Can you try to be a little nicer?  It's no fun hating you, I'd much rather have interesting debates with you.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## lungshihpo (Jul 2, 2002)

my nose hasn't went  anywhere,like i said i enjoy reading this,and I certainly dont need "your " comment to feel confident in what i do,like damian said,i'm not even angry,if people spend time dwelling on others negativity,everyone would be miserable,in my eyes if you think im personally not trained,that's fine 


Practicing full out is great and it gives you a sense of real timing, speed and power, plus you soon find the results of a missed block but if your aren't going to try and improve your technique then you are just wasting your time.

and this statement here is your assumption only!,I or no one here ever said that we did not train other than what you see on the clips,the site was put up because the people who had been coming over said hell with all these tapes we got we ought to make a web site,so I did!

Thanks Damian,you could not be anymore accurate.


Jason    :asian:


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## Cruentus (Jul 3, 2002)

What is the difference between the Dog Brothers, Bakbakan intl., or the other popular full contact fighting groups then Jasons backyard?

One word: training!

The fact that the dog brothers have trained with some of the top instructors in the world gives them the credability to run a full contact fighting club. The fact that the amount of training (and from who) that Jason, and the members of this group have recieved is unclear is part of what ruins the credability of the group.

Jason: First off, I want to say that I like your demeanor on this forum. I must say I am suprised. No offense, but when I browsed your site I honestly thought that you would be an @$$hole, but you don't appear to be. You seem like a pretty cool guy who wants to train for "fighting", not just for "art". I think that is respectable enough. 

I am going to make a few suggestions for you, if I may. Please don't take offense to anything I say. And obviously these are only suggestions from some Yankee that you don't know, so take or leave what I say.

1. Training; Make the information on the training that you have already recieved more accessable. I know that you listed some things, but what you have listed isn't enough info. You need specifics and instructors backgrounds. If your training background is limited, so what...then say so. It is better to be honest then not.

Then, go out and get training. I know you have some, but get more...and not just from the guy down the street. Travel, if you can, and seek out the best instructors in the world. When you publish in a website anything regarding fighting, you'll only be as credable as your instructors.

2. Liability: It seems that your letting anyone into your group. Plus, this is at your house. I know you have set up rules and disclaimers, but these aren't enough. You can still get sued; it not only can happend, but it does happend all the time. No judge will understand what your doing, either. Hell, some of the people on this thread don't even understand, and they're martial artists. It would be very easy for someone to paint a very ugly picture of you in court.

You could start with a waiver, written by an attorney that would cover all local and state statues. Even that isn't enough, though. You need instructors liability insurance as well. Until you get these things you really need to limit those who join your group. You could have some trash talker come in, challenge everyone, get hurt, then try to sue you. Even if it doesn't stick, going through a law suit is a nightmare.

3. Safety: It appear's that you guy's have rules in place, and that you have perimeters. I think you might need some more, though, or some better refereeing to avoid serious injury. I think that we can both agree that anytime rules are put in place, combat becomes contest and it's not the same. So, since it is a contest anyways,...why not put more definitive rules, or at least better refereeing in place to prevent injury?

4. Getting out of your element: You and the people in your group should compete in full contact tournaments outside your backyard. It is easy to be the backyard champ, but competing at national and world levels is quite another game. Expanding your groups horizons and competing in tournament circut's will demonstrate your true abilities.

Please excuse sp errors (I'm at work and I had to hammer this out at high speed!) 

Have fun and happy training!    :asian:


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## lungshihpo (Jul 4, 2002)

paul this is my training you asked for:

when I was 9 i started shaolin kung fu, called lung shih po,which stands for movement of the golden dragon,that is my primary art,I studied under sifu Paul Newton,the 1st 5 yrears of training was heavy I stopped going to class when football started but i always practiced and sparred,after football i went back for 2 years,the past 2 years i have been studiing ninjutsu to improve my ground skills,at my primary school,my teacher on the side would teach pressure point srtiking,another teacher there was fluent in chin na,and he taught as well,that was only taught to the advanced students,one teachers was trained in bjj,that is the ground skill i had before i started practicing ninjutsu.

        The class was very versatile my teachers said if it works, use it! regardless of what style it came from,blackbelt requirements are30 short forms,30 sparring techniques,9 long forms,5 weapons forms,15 ippons,sparring,my teacher retired very recently,thats sucks!,he still get with me about 2 times a month,he had 4 black belts in different styles,judo,shaolin din ro,(not sure on the spelling),isshin-ryu,and not exact on the last one ,he has studied for a total of 37 years,and the last 21 yrs he has studied pressure point striking,so he decided to name his own style which had a complilation of all the styles he had learned,but the class structure was mainly shaolin kung fu being taught,it was the foundation for the animal forms,etc.


                       but yes I do train ,most of the matches here are to help the ones who are learning ,but there are street fighters who are here to fight, so those guys you have to treat like a fight,which like said i think is great training.but despite what most think there are 2 or 3 here ,who are skilled.paul i hope that helps you some,IM me one day if you like to know further,but thanks for your opinion ,Train hard!!

jason:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *paul this is my training you asked for:
> 
> when I was 9 i started shaolin kung fu, called lung shih po,which stands for movement of the golden dragon,that is my primary art,I *




Lung Shr Po= movement of the golden dragon...........really?
I don't think so.


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## lungshihpo (Jul 4, 2002)

it is a style he created as far as the name,it's base was from his formal teachings,he put together what he thought was essential.what is your real problem here?the clips,me,the fact that most are not trained,just would like to know.

jason


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *what is your real problem here?the clips,me,the fact that most are not trained,just would like to know.
> 
> jason *



Take the paranoid bug out of your ***.

After studying Chinese for 7 years and living there for 3 years I can tell you Lung Shr Po does not mean "movement of the golden dragon".


The title of this threads is "What do you think of this?"

I gave my opinion.
Remind me to sugar coat my comments the next time I give my opinion.
Otherwise you are liable to think I am "out to get you"


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## lungshihpo (Jul 4, 2002)

I dont think im the one over reacting,but what ever that is fine, im taking no offense,the name is from an old dialect ,mandarin i think not sure,but i am allowed to post my opinion as well,but act how you want im out learn and enjoy myself.


jason:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *.............the name is from an old dialect ,mandarin i think not sure,but i am allowed to post my opinion as well*




Oddly enough I speak Mandarin as well as Taiwanese/Fukenese and some Cantonese.

It is Mandarin but it doesn't mean the Golden dragon method.


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## lungshihpo (Jul 5, 2002)

on this particular topic i cant argue because i have little knowledge of that,i would have to ask.

jason


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 5, 2002)

Jason, 

Not trying to pick on you but one of my pet peeves is martial artists (western and asian) that give out false and/or inaccurate information.
(In this case I think you are just repeating what you were told so it's not your fault)
When false and or inaccurate information is given out over a period of time it sometimes overshadows the truth.

Take for example the common misconception spread by Japanese karateka that the Naihanchi katas were made by peasants and the direction in which they were practiced is side to side so that could practice in between the rice paddies on their lunch breaks. 

First misconception: 

Karate was never practiced by the peasant class (when there actually was one, however, it is now because I am one!), it was only practice by the Bushi or Warrior class.

Second misconception: 

Naihanchi katas were not made to go side to side because of the above mentioned but rather because of the bunkai held within the kata.

This was a common "truth" for years until recently when some people stood up and said "Say what? Sounds like BS to me" and then actually went to Okinawa and asked some Okinawan people, actually I still meet Japanese Karateka on a regular basis that believe this nonsense.


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## lungshihpo (Jul 5, 2002)

I will try to find out more about this and then i will post it,thanks,

Jason:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Jul 5, 2002)

What does it mean then?


:asian:


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## lungshihpo (Jul 8, 2002)

I would like to know myself,the dialect used is very old,I like to hear his interpretation.


Jason:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *I would like to know myself,the dialect used is very old,I like to hear his interpretation.
> 
> ...




I am sure you would.  


Saying that dialect is old is kind of like saying English is old .............most languages are old.





> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *I will try to find out more about this and then i will post it,thanks,
> 
> Jason:asian: *




I am still waiting for your information.


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 8, 2002)

Ryu, Jason is being awfully nice to you and your still being a "not nice guy" (self edited).   Why don't you change your attitude and make some friends here instead of antagonise everyone?

A couple people would like to know what it means and asked you and your response was "I am sure you would."  Why don't you just tell him what it means?  Do you actually know?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *  Ryu, Jason is being awfully nice to you and your still being a "not nice guy" (self edited).   Why don't you change your attitude and make some friends here instead of antagonise everyone?*



This is the third time you have tried to analyze my feelings about this thread, Jason, his website and your still way off.
Believe me when I feel antagonistic you will definitely know it.
So why don't you get off my *** and stop trying to play "Mr. Why can't we all get along- Internet Cop" where it isn't needed.

Jason said he was going to look into it and post................I was waiting to see what he was going to post.

I am wondering why he is waiting for my definition when it would be so much quicker to just ask his teacher.

And to answer your question............"Do you actually know?"
Yes, after studying Chinese for over 7 years I am sure I have a pretty good idea even without seeing the kanji.


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 9, 2002)

deleted my response because it really doesn't matter.


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *What is it about people like you that need to belittle others to make themselves feel better?  You are a classic bully, exactly the type of person I warn my students about.  Mean, arrogant and cowardly.  I say cowardly because if we met in real life you'd be a nice guy, but while hiding behind a monitor you can be as tough and mean as you like.  *



Now who is being antagonistic? 
You want to call me names over the Internet fine.
The only one doing any bullying is YOU..........you have followed me all over this post and after almost each reply that wasn't "singing Jason's" praises" you have given me copious amounts of attitude for it.

Someone on this board asked a question "What do you think of this?" I believe it was and I didn't give "glowing reports" about it so you got your panties in a wad.

You are definitely a new kind of "Troll".........the kind that if someone doesn't agree with everyone or makes sarcastic comments once in a while you try to mark them as the bad guy. 

Now that I have seen you for what you truly are I will be more alert.

There are some people on this board that have met me face to face and they know what kind of person I am.


Did you even bother to read this (below)



> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *Jason,
> 
> ...


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 9, 2002)

Damn you're fast, I posted at 8:38, deleted it at 8:40 but somehow you responded to it at 9:01..... ah well.

The only problem I have had with you from the beginning is your negative and sarcastic responses to other people in an attempt to make yourself look smart but all it's done is make you look like a jerk.  Theres not much else I can say about this, you are a jerk on this message board, from the beginning I wanted to know why and that was it.  If you truly don't see how your remarks are antagonising than lets just forget it, you seem to think its all me and you have done nothing wrong and that is fine.  I won't respond to your mean spirited remarks anymore whomever they are directed at.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Damn you're fast, I posted at 8:38, deleted it at 8:40 but somehow you responded to it at 9:01..... ah well.
> 
> ...




You mean like calling people "Jerks, mean, arrogant, & cowards".
Yeah you are making yourself perfectly clear.


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *
> The only problem I have had with you from the beginning is your negative and sarcastic responses to other people in an attempt to make yourself look smart.............
> ...




Was I really trying to make myself look smart?...........I am glad you pointed that out for me.

I thought I was just trying to rectify some of the BS that is so widely propagated these boards. My mistake.
Once again you have "profiled" me to a "T".


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 9, 2002)

Ok ok ok last reply, honest!  I will fight for what is right and just, it is as simple as that.  Youre trying to insinuate that its ok for you to be mean but if I stand up to you and tell you your being mean than I'm worse than you....hmmm... I could equate that with me walking along and seeing someone beating up someone else so I step in to stop them and the attacker turning around and telling me I'm a bad person for attacking them even though they were the ones doing it first and I'm just trying to stop it.  I think you're missing the whole "you are the bad guy" theme that I have been telling you since you first started posting negative posts on this thread.  Don't play the victim on this one buddy, Jason and I were both nice to you over and over and you consistently acted and responded like a jerk. 

P.S. if you were just trying to rectify some of the B.S. that propagates this board then you would have answered the people that wanted to know the correct translation after you told them they were wrong.  Instead you kept that knowledge to yourself, not exactly rectifying. 

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Ok ok ok last reply, honest!  I will fight for what is right and just, it is as simple as that.  Youre trying to insinuate that its ok for you to be mean but if I stand up to you and tell you your being mean than I'm worse than you....hmmm... I could equate that with me walking along and seeing someone beating up someone else so I step in to stop them and the attacker turning around and telling me I'm a bad person for attacking them even though they were the ones doing it first and I'm just trying to stop it.  I think you're missing the whole "you are the bad guy" theme that I have been telling you since you first started posting negative posts on this thread.  Don't play the victim on this one buddy, Jason and I were both nice to you over and over and you consistently acted and responded like a jerk.
> 
> ...



I see so disagreeing and being mean are the same to you................interesting concept.

Yeah that's right your the guy in the "White Hat"..........regular "Lone Ranger" you are.
As I recall YOU were the only one that did any personal attacks, name calling and throwing a temper tantrum........and your still at it!


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *
> P.S. if you were just trying to rectify some of the B.S. that propagates this board then you would have answered the people that wanted to know the correct translation after you told them they were wrong.  Instead you kept that knowledge to yourself, not exactly rectifying.
> ...



Is there a time limit on when I have to reply? I don't think so.
Besides you have taken this thread on such a drift with your little temper-tantrum I haven't had time.

Jason, and who ever else wants to know just shoot me an email. I will explain what each word means. I would post it but Damian seems to cry foul at every post I make on here and we have seen where that leads plus I have better things to do than reply to his constant whining.


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## lungshihpo (Jul 9, 2002)

why don't you just let it go!please e-mail me the interpretation,other than that damian sees what were trying to do here,and yes you were a jerk, but that is fine,your negative marks are not going to bother me,that is not offense because im not going argue with you ,,so you disagree,fine!!like i said i will send it to you when i have all the information,damian and i seem to feel you put just a little more in than your opinion,


Jason:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

´= Dragon= Lung

= Temple= Shr

@= Method/Way= Po


You will need to change the Encoding to see the kanji:erg:


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## Kirk (Jul 9, 2002)

Please Keep The Discussion Friendly, And On Topic

- MT Moderator -


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## lungshihpo (Jul 9, 2002)

that is no problem for me.thanks



jason:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Please Keep The Discussion Friendly, And On Topic
> 
> - MT Moderator - *






> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *that is no problem for me.thanks
> 
> jason:asian: *





I guess you calling me a "jerk" is just your way of being "Friendly"......:boing1:


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## Kirk (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I guess you calling me a "jerk" is just your way of being "Friendly"......:boing1: *




He said he'd let it go.  So let it go.

-MT Moderator-


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *why don't you just let it go!please e-mail me the interpretation,other than that damian sees what were trying to do here,and yes you were a jerk, but that is fine,your negative marks are not going to bother me,that is not offense because im not going argue with you ,,so you disagree,fine!!like i said i will send it to you when i have all the information,damian and i seem to feel you put just a little more in than your opinion,
> 
> ...





I like the way he says "let it go" and then calls me a jerk.

Isn't that kind of like saying "let it go" but F. you in the proccess...........


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## lungshihpo (Jul 9, 2002)

:waah:     I'm not going to argue with you anymore. But just for the record, I didn't say you WERE a jerk, personally, I just said you were being a jerk.



Jason:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *why don't you just let it go!please e-mail me the interpretation,other than that damian sees what were trying to do here,and yes you were a jerk , but that is fine,
> 
> Jason:asian: *




Seems pretty clear to me what you trying to say.


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## SolidTiger (Jul 9, 2002)

HA HA AH AH AH HA HA!!! The drama is killing                   me!!!!!!         :argue: 

                        :vu:

Just like a soap....

SolidTiger


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## lungshihpo (Jul 9, 2002)

LOL, I agree tiger!  



Jason:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Jul 9, 2002)

As this discussion has so eloquently illustrated, electronic communication via email or bulletin boards fails to adequately convey the tone and meaning of what is better said in person...

RyuShiKan is a friend of mine, and sometime teacher.  I have known him for almost 2 years I'd guess, and I have yet to see him be mean or "act like a jerk."  He is very direct, and has a certain sense of sarcasm that tends to come out when confronted by martial silliness (I think that is a Midwestern thing, since I do it too and we are only "down the road" from each other back home...).

Given that even here in Japan there are fraudulent martial artists trying to cash in on the ignorance of others, if it were my doing, I likely would not have been quite so forthcoming with a translation of your system's name...  If you were using the words incorrectly, it would only highlight your lack of adequate knowledge to those more "in the know."

It is a personal pet peeve of mine (and I think RyuShiKan and several other folks I know that are multi-lingual share with me) when English speakers (primarily Americans) attempt to make use of Asian languages to make their home made arts seem more legitimate, but use the languages so incorrectly that their terms are laughable.  There is one individual that has been discussed at great length on www.e-budo.com whose self-made art's Japanese kanji translation was literally "whore house style" instead of his intended term.  Most folks didn't know any different, but he has taken some serious blows to his credibility due to his complete lack of authenticity (and this not due solely to his lack of language skills, either) as pointed out by people that _are_ multi-lingual.

Bottom line, if you are going to use the language, do your homework.

Anyway...

RyuShiKan, I think, was simply hoping that you would do a little more work on translating the name of your style instead of relying on the abilities of others to fill in the holes for you.  If what you do works, then that is ultimately all the legitimacy you need, but that added effort to discover the real meaning of the name speaks volumes for your credibility and character.

Good luck with Dragon Temple Method.  Cool name.

:asian:

:samurai:  :samurai:


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## arnisador (Jul 9, 2002)

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## arnisador (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *Saying that dialect is old is kind of like saying English is old .............most languages are old.
> *



Yes, but not all dialects of them are--Greek is an old language, but Attic is older than Koine which in turn is older than Byzantine, and the modern, government-approved dialect is less than 50 years old (from its official date of acceptance). English is old but the American English dialect(s) rather less so.

The dialect in question may well be old and indeed most languages are also, but dialects are something different--many of them are new, though many are old, and many more are extinct.


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## GouRonin (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *There is one individual that has been discussed at great length on www.e-budo.com whose self-made art's Japanese kanji translation was literally "whore house style" instead of his intended term.*



I swear to God I am going to start learning that style.

Bwah-ha-ha-ha!


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Sorry that's all Greek to me.............


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## arnisador (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *Sorry that's all Greek to me.............*



Heh.


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 10, 2002)

Sorry couldn't resist the corny joke.

But back to what you were talking about.................Mandarin is a really old "dialect", and it is also the "official" language of China.
All the schools teach it and are supposed to teach using it.

There are certain types of Chinese that are very old an most people don't use them. Sort of like Latin or Shakespearean English.


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## lungshihpo (Jul 10, 2002)

RyuShiKan, I think, was simply hoping that you would do a little more work on translating the name of your style instead of relying on the abilities of others to fill in the holes for you.


Im not waiting for him to fill in the holes, my teacher told me what it meant,that's all i need,he said people would not recognize it to day,like i said it's from an older dialect,but movement of the golden dragon is the interpretation we have,yes we knew it dont match up "today".I just wanted to hear what it meant since he said it did not mean what i said,after i get the exact information from my teacher i will post it.Im not arguing or throwing offense,but i will find out the deal,im curious myself now!thanks



Jason :asian:


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## lungshihpo (Jul 10, 2002)

I talked to my teacher,the dialect is over 100 yrs old,it's base from shaolin-do,which sifu originally learned from 'Sin The',a chinese martial artist that moved to lexington,Ky in the 60's

Thanks,Jason:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Jul 10, 2002)

Shaolin-Do is one of the arts most often attacked on the internet for its inability to properly account for its own legitimacy.

There have been extensive threads on other bulletin boards (i.e. www.kungfuonline.com, www.e-budo.com) about Shaolin-Do and some of its questionable background.

I hope that, while you say your "base" is in Shaolin-Do, your teacher has managed to turn it into something else.

Good luck in your training.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai:  :samurai:


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## lungshihpo (Jul 10, 2002)

he has,he's very versatile in his teachings,he says if it works go for it,Thanks

Jason:asian:


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## Monkey King (Jul 10, 2002)

> Shaolin-Do is one of the arts most often attacked on the internet for its inability to properly account for its own legitimacy.



I find it interesting that so many people make judgements based on semantics. I was a Shaolin-do practitioner for 6 years. Average time to reach 1st black is 5.

I can fill you all in on your questions. I've read the so-called "extensive" discussions on all the sites and they all seem to have your issue; why a chinese art with a japanese name? Let me explain.

1st - Shaolin-do's history is based on the lineage of the southern Shaolin temple in the Fukien province. Hence the "wookie" as mentioned before was born with Hypertrichosis, that disease that gives you excess body hair. The story goes that he was dumped at the gates of the southern temple by his parents who thought they gave birth to a demon.

The Seven Shao-lin Temples:
Honan (most famous), Fukien, Shantung,  Omei Shan, Kwang Tung, Wu-Tang, & Hua Mountain
Southern temple: Fukien Shao-lin Temple, Lin Ch'uan Yuan Putien County
Grandmasters:

Su Kong T'ai Djin -  (1849 - 1928) (the wookie)
Last grandmaster when the temple was destroyed by the Ch'ing Kwang Hsu Emperor--beginning of the 20th century.

Ie Chang Ming - (1880 - 1968) 
Disciple and Successor to Su Kong T'ai Djin. Also one of the last surviving monks at the Fukien temple before it was burned to the ground. Fled to Indonesia when persecuted by soldiers.

Sin Kwang The´ - (1943 - Present) 
Current Grandmaster and Successor to Ie Chang Ming. Also from the Fukien province.

Sin The learned from Ie Chang Ming in Indonesia where Japanese political influence was prominant. You all know the hatred between the japanese and the Chinese at the time.

So in order to continue to teach, and not be persecuted, Ie Chang Ming donned the Japanese style of uniform and ranking. He called the art Shaolin-Do, The way of the Shaolin, since many of his students were indonesian or Japanese. He had few chinese students since the chinese were not liked. It simply stuck to this day.

It doesn't get any easier than that.

When Sin The' first started the school in Kentucky, there was discussion as to whether or not they should use the traditional style uniform commonly seen with kung fu schools. In fact, they even tried them. But they found the traditional karate gi was more durable so they chose to stay with it. The Japanese ranking system made the most sense.

They are not secret, and there are no contracts to sign.

Just an injury waiver. The forms or katas are plenty, as are the weapons training. 

There is alot of information which may explain the lack luster technique in the brown belt class. 

You see, when they test, they have to test on all forms and techniques form white belt on; everytime they test, for every belt. it never stops. Not like some schools that let you forsake the earlier teachings when you test.

When they practice, everyone from white belt on up goes over everything as a warm up.

I would agree that at times there seems to be too much crammed into a practice but they believe that everyone will practice on their own as well. By the time one reaches 1st black, (usually in 5 years) one would hopefully have either mastered the basics or perform them with great skill. But as you all know, everyone's learning curve is different.

They have light and full contact sparring in every class. Glove sparring for the black belts only. As also blindfolded tai chi sparring.

They are dedicated martial artists and work hard at what they do. They stick to the traditional chinese way of doing things as much as possible. 

I was with them for 6 years and enjoyed every minute of it. I still practice all of the forms and weapons I learned, which are quite lengthy.

So before you all "Poo Poo" something you don't know that much about, I would suggest you visit a school, talk to an instructor and ask them your questions. You will find them quite amiable and willing to take the time with you.

Shaolin-Do is a chinese art in a Japanese gi...so what. I see chinese schools in sweats and t-shirts. If what you wear is criteria for legitimacy, then we are all in trouble. 

Don't judge them, they are serious about their art, just like you.  

http://www.shaolin-do.com/


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## SolidTiger (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


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## SolidTiger (Jul 10, 2002)

what I was trying to say this is a well said defense.

SolidTiger


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 11, 2002)

I think some people put way too much thought into discrediting other peoples systems and way too much importance on legitimacy and history.  I could care less if Bob Billy Bob makes an art in the year 2002 and he names it Bob Billy Bob's House O Pain...if it works than great.  

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Matt Stone (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> 
> *I find it interesting that so many people make judgements based on semantics.*



I have never criticized the name so much so as what I saw when I visited their school in Colorado Springs many years ago.



> *I was a Shaolin-do practitioner for 6 years. Average time to reach 1st black is 5.*



Congratulations on your achievement.  That is quite a lot of time to invest in any endeavor.



> *I can fill you all in on your questions. I've read the so-called "extensive" discussions on all the sites and they all seem to have your issue; why a chinese art with a japanese name? Let me explain.*



Explanation snipped for length.  Good explanation, and consistent with what all the SD proponents puts out in defense of their art.



> *Sin Kwang The´ - (1943 - Present)
> Current Grandmaster and Successor to Ie Chang Ming. Also from the Fukien province.*



This is a point that has been debated.  Sin The's accession to this title is also debated, and I heard one arguement that Sin The's brother was in fact senior to him and if either of them was the "heir" to such a title, it would be the brother, not Sin The.  Whatever.  I don't care to go into this much detail of the discussion...



> *So in order to continue to teach, and not be persecuted, Ie Chang Ming donned the Japanese style of uniform and ranking. He called the art Shaolin-Do, The way of the Shaolin, since many of his students were indonesian or Japanese. He had few chinese students since the chinese were not liked. It simply stuck to this day.*





> *When Sin The' first started the school in Kentucky, there was discussion as to whether or not they should use the traditional style uniform commonly seen with kung fu schools. In fact, they even tried them. But they found the traditional karate gi was more durable so they chose to stay with it. The Japanese ranking system made the most sense.*



What uniform and belt is worn is of little concern to me.  My school wears _either_ Japanese or Chinese style uniforms, depending on a number of factors...



> *The forms or katas are plenty, as are the weapons training.*



I personally find it hard to believe that any individual, "master" or not, can either _know_ or _master_ over _500_ forms.  That is what, I think, gets the question ball rolling for SD...



> *There is alot of information which may explain the lack luster technique in the brown belt class.*



You seem to be referring specifically to a post I made against SD on www.e-budo.com a while back.  I visited the Colorado Springs school, I think it was the home of two of Sin The's highest ranked instructors, and I watched a class of four brown belts perform the second most hideous display of pathetic martial technique I have ever been witness to...  It was far from lackluster, and to allow students to be promoted to a senior grade with such a lack of skill speaks volumes of the orientation of a school.



> *You see, when they test, they have to test on all forms and techniques form white belt on; everytime they test, for every belt. it never stops. Not like some schools that let you forsake the earlier teachings when you test...  When they practice, everyone from white belt on up goes over everything as a warm up.*



So, too, does my school require performance on every skill developed, be it simple strike, kicks, throws, joint locks, forms, etc.  They are not "warm ups," but actual testable material.  This demands that a student continues training even in the basic material, and never allows for such material to go fallow...  I congratulate you for having such a standard, but with over 500 forms to learn, that certainly must be time consuming during the evaluation...



> *By the time one reaches 1st black, (usually in 5 years) one would hopefully have either mastered the basics or perform them with great skill. But as you all know, everyone's learning curve is different.*



Which goes back to my comment on the brown belts' performance.  Having students whose next test(s) should place them at or very near black belt level, whose personal performance was of such poor quality, and saying that by the time someone reaches first black their skills should be of good quality, throws a questioning light on the standard of performance for that school.  Perhaps what I witnessed was simpy the four worst students in the brown belt class.  Perhaps they were newly promoted brown belts.  Whatever the permutations of excuses for their poor performance, it caused me concern about the training standards of that school.  I had no information about SD or the Soards at that time, and went there in complete good faith expecting to see quality martial arts being taught.  Further, it was not until just a few years ago that I first learned of the controversy surrounding SD.  So when I saw what I saw, the impression was made without the predjudice many others may have after being exposed to knowledge obtained from discussions on these, and other, boards.



> *They are dedicated martial artists and work hard at what they do. They stick to the traditional chinese way of doing things as much as possible.  ...   I was with them for 6 years and enjoyed every minute of it. I still practice all of the forms and weapons I learned, which are quite lengthy.*



Good for you.  Glad to know you are continuing with your training.  Many students leave their original schools and forget everything they were taught.  Congratulations for not falling victim to that eventuality...  Did you have to move or relocate your training?  Why are you no longer training with them?  Do you train only in your prior SD methods, or have you found a new school to train at? 



> *So before you all "Poo Poo" something you don't know that much about, I would suggest you visit a school, talk to an instructor and ask them your questions. You will find them quite amiable and willing to take the time with you.*



I'm not "poo poo-ing" ever re-evaluating what I saw.  Anytime I am somewhere new, I try to make time to visit all the schools I can find, if for no other reason that to foster friendship among different schools and styles.  I took initial offense primarily to the displays I saw, then to the ridiculously large number of forms touted as standard training, and finally to the supposition that they claimed to teach Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua as complete _systems._  Perhaps as individual forms, okay, but not as systems...



> *Shaolin-Do is a chinese art in a Japanese gi...so what. I see chinese schools in sweats and t-shirts. If what you wear is criteria for legitimacy, then we are all in trouble.*



I agree wholeheartedly on that point.  What you wear means little compared to what you (can) do.



> *Don't judge them, they are serious about their art, just like you.  *



Not judging so much as commenting on what I saw.  I apologize if it seemed that I had passed a final judgement incapable of reevaluation. :asian:

Gambarimasu.

:samurai:  :samurai:


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *I think some people put way too much thought into discrediting other peoples systems and way too much importance on legitimacy and history. *



I think purposely misleading the general public is not a good thing.
If your are going to claim legitimacy and lineage back to wherever then there should be enough evidence to support it.
Oddly enough the ones that are usually the most bogus make the most claims about lineage and legitimacy.
I met a guy last weekend that claims his art is Okinawan Jujutsu.  
There is no such thing.
He also made some claim that the other art he is highly ranked in was descended from Samurai warriors and is a mixture of Okinawan Jujutsu/Kyokushin/something else/ something else.
I forgot the last 2 but they were just as goofy as the first 2.
Since there is no such thing as Okinawan JJ and Kyokushin was only made 50 years ago his claims the came from "Samurai" are both bogus and sad.
I have no idea what he really teaches but I do know he does a stun gun  kata (no joke) that is quite electrifying. 
(I swear he did this in front of a whole room full of people)
Not only does he claim to teach these art but also claims lofty and very fake ranks in all as well as the rank of "Kocho".
Kocho means School Principal BTW. 
So whether his arts work or not is not the point, the point is he comes off as a buffoon. 
Personally I would respect him more if he just said I made all this stuff up and I call it "Hoo Flung Poo" or "Sum Dum Ho" or even "Hamster style". At least in this way he is not purposely deceiving the general public.

As for legitimacy & lineage.............well I have met more than a few Tae Kwon Do folks in Korea that flatly deny TKD came from Karate and yet some of the Kata they do are almost identical to Pinan katas that were made by Itosu of Okinawa. Not to mention the kanji for the kata are exactly the same. So go figure.


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## Monkey King (Jul 11, 2002)

I'll let this drop after this. 

The school in the springs was recently started. It is not the main school. That is in Denver.

I agree poor technique discipline seems to reign within the schools. But that's the fault of the instructors. The classes are very relaxed and no time is spent on learning proper technique. One of my pet peeves.

Sin The's rise to grandmastery - well, I didn't sign up because he was a "grandmaster". I truly don't care. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who claims grandmastership is suspect.

I had heard two stories. The first where he purchased is rank, which is common in martial arts communities, the second where he attained it normally.

I tend to believe the former. That aside, the forms and training are good. There are the few that actually excell at them.  I videotaped a class once and was surprised at what I saw. Probably the same thing you saw in the springs.

500 forms? it's possible...mastering them ? not possible. it would take your entire lifetime everyday for hours a day.

But having been in it, I have to say that the information taught was quality information. Just not the way it was taught.


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## Cruentus (Jul 11, 2002)

> I could care less if Bob Billy Bob makes an art in the year 2002 and he names it Bob Billy Bob's House O Pain...if it works than great.



Yea, me either. Who cares about what Billy Bob does, just as long as Billy Bob isn't lying to people just to take there $$, or boost his own ego in his fantasy world.

I think that's the real problem here. If you just created your art this year, then fine....just say so. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as when people outright lie about their credentials. If an instructor is going to lie about credentials, then he will probably lie about the techniques, and will falsely present what "works". His students will walk away not having a clue as to how to effectively defend themselves.

I see it happend way to much, and it sickens me. Too many people out there need a reality check.



> well I have met more than a few Tae Kwon Do folks in Korea that flatly deny TKD came from Karate



Also, many of them will deny that some of the spinning and hook kicking techniques came from Filipino Sakiron (sp?). There are reasons for this, though, and it isn't necissarily that they are bad martial artists. It is just that martial artists ARE NOT anthropologists or historians. A lot of what is out there in terms of origins are mere conjectures without concrete or "written" evidence to prove it. This doesn't mean that these conjectures are false, though.

This is where legitamicy gets fustrating. As martial arts progress, they pirate each other, and techniques get mixed and matched across cultures. However, when I studied ITF TKD (a while ago) I especially remember the Korean Nationalism; I doubt some of the Korean masters I've met would admit that anything TKD was anything but Korean. 

I guess the main point is that we as Martial Artists need to know ENOUGH to legitimize our arts, but we can't be expected to be historians either. There has to be a happy medium.

As for myself, I study Filipino martial arts; Due to the lack of pre-spanish written records, I learn new concepts about my arts origin(s) all the time.


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## arnisador (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *Also, many of them will deny that some of the spinning and hook kicking techniques came from Filipino Sakiron (sp?). *



Is there indeed a TKD-Sikaran connection? I hadn't heard this.


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## lungshihpo (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *
> I think that's the real problem here. If you just created your art this year, then fine....just say so. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as when people outright lie about their credentials. If an instructor is going to lie about credentials, then he will probably lie about the techniques, and will falsely present what "works". His students will walk away not having a clue as to how to effectively defend themselves.
> ...


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 11, 2002)

I don't think he was referring to you Jason, this thread has taken a topic turn is all and now we are discussing how some instructors make false claims whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Ryu said "I think purposely misleading the general public is not a good thing."

Ya that's pretty bad, I see bad martial arts schools everywere and false claims are the least of their sins.  Why is it martial arts attracts the worst kind of characters and somehow these are the guys that land up running schools, probably because martial arts is one of the few ways a nobody can be granted a small amount of power fairly easily. (by power I mean controlling the actions of others to some degree, I don't mean the power to kick ***)

What I meant earlier is, why do people care about the lineage of an art?  Personally I think they are all full of poo so I don't care were they come from.  To me it's the effectiveness of an art that counts.  So if someone looking for a school is talking to an instructor and he's telling them it is an ancient art that goes back 1000 years....... why would the prospective student care?  I know some do care, I'm just curious why.

And Tae Kwon Do IS AN ANCIENT ART THAT GOES BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS!! HOW DARE YOU BLASPHEME!! heh ok I'm joking.  Tae Kwon Do is basically Korean Karate just over 50 years old and is taken directly from Karate.  Our founder of TKD got his training and black belt in Karate and then created TKD.  People that make all those other claims about TKD are either uninformed or (not meant to be racist) Korean.  Nobody really cares that TKD is from Karate except the Koreans in Korea. (national pride thing I guess)

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Cruentus (Jul 11, 2002)

> I dont know how you meant this,but i gave you the information,take it how you want it,I can tell everyone is out to get the other one here!If you think im a fake so be it!



Jason, I am not out to get anyone, and that wasn't to say you are a "fake." I don't really know you, nor do I know much about the history behind your art. I was just stating how I feel about the importance of legitamicy, thats all.


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## Nightingale (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Guys.... I kinda think your missing the point here, you should be getting hurt at least a bit in your martial arts training don't you think?  We aren't practicing ballet right?
> Damian Mavis
> Honour TKD *



hehe...damian, you obviously aren't a dancer... I experience way more pain in dance class than in karate...

the first day of pointe (toe shoe) class, my teacher showed us all how to wrap our feet so that when (not if) all the blisters broke, all the blood wouldn't soak through and stain the satin shoes.  For most of us, it soaked through anyway  (soaking something in hydrogen peroxide will remove a fresh bloodstain, just fyi)

dancers go through a lot of pain, hurt, and injury.  I can't count all the  injuries I've seen on girls who's partners have dropped them, people who've twisted ankles, broken bones, overstretched and torn things, and even a guy who slipped during a jump and landed his crotch on the corner of the stage...dancers don't wear cups, ya know... he had to have surgery to remove the testicle that was pushed up into his abdomen.


still think dance doesn't hurt?



respectfully,

Nightingale


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## Cruentus (Jul 11, 2002)

Arnisador: I am citing (by memory) the section in Mark V. Wiley's Book "Filipino Martial Arts Theory and Practice" [I think that is the correct title, please correct me if I am wrong]. It basically said that when the Koreans opened martial arts tournaments to the public early on (before TKD became world-wide) many Sakaran students entered and did fairly well. They sort of brought some of the spin kicking techniques and hooking kicks to the tournament table (especially the hook kick where you kick past the opponent and kick them in the back or back of head, a signature Sakaran kicking movement that was also a signature TKD move for many successful tournament fighters). These eventually became integrated into the art.

I am at work, so I don't have Mr. Wileys' book to look at to confirm what I'm saying, but that's what I remember.


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## Cruentus (Jul 11, 2002)

> he had to have surgery to remove the testicle that was pushed up into his abdomen.



That hurt just reading it!


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *
> What I meant earlier is, why do people care about the lineage of an art?  Personally I think they are all full of poo so I don't care were they come from.  To me it's the effectiveness of an art that counts.  So if someone looking for a school is talking to an instructor and he's telling them it is an ancient art that goes back 1000 years....... why would the prospective student care?  I know some do care, I'm just curious why. *



Basically it is similar to false advertising.

For example, before my teacher came to the US there were no Ryukyu Kempo schools in America. 
(The Ryukyu Kempo Rengo Kai was an organization that was founded back in the 1960's after the death of one of his teachers.)
After living in the US a few years and gaining some popularity and notoriety certain people started using the Ryukyu Kempo name after only studying  it VERY briefly or without actually having studied it at all. These people had no connection to him and were basically using the Ryukyu Kempo name for name recognition. (Bottom line......they used it for gettin' students in the dojo)
It got so bad that by the early 1990's so many people claimed to be teaching Ryukyu Kempo, some of them rather undesirable folks too, that had no connection to my teacher. 
He actually went out and re-named his organization and had the name copyrighted. So now no one can use it unless they have written permission from him.


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *
> And Tae Kwon Do IS AN ANCIENT ART THAT GOES BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS!! HOW DARE YOU BLASPHEME!! heh ok I'm joking.  Tae Kwon Do is basically Korean Karate just over 50 years old and is taken directly from Karate.  Our founder of TKD got his training and black belt in Karate and then created TKD.  People that make all those other claims about TKD are either uninformed or (not meant to be racist) Korean.  Nobody really cares that TKD is from Karate except the Koreans in Korea. (national pride thing I guess)
> ...




I have also read the "Moonies" (Rev. Sung Yung Moon/Unification Church) have a big stake in TKD in Korea and across North America as well.
If I remember correctly Moon said his goal was to control all martial arts across North America .............now there is a scary thought.


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 11, 2002)

My god who who are the Moonies.  And ya I understand the making money off someone elses name, thats real bad but hopefully people will always copyright before they get to big.

Nightingale, I've dated 5 dancers and know how hard it is on the body but I was talking about getting hit during training.  To me learning all about getting hit is as important as learning how to hit when it comes to martial arts training, I wasn't even referring to the thousands of stupid training injuries I've accumulated over the years.  Training injuries are a part of all physical activites I think, but I understand were you are coming from.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 11, 2002)

I have several other articles on Rev. Moon and Karate.

Here is one them.




http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/moonies/moonflies.asp


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## chufeng (Jul 11, 2002)

POSTED BY RYU SHI KAN  I met a guy last weekend that claims his art is Okinawan Jujutsu.  There is no such thing. He also made some claim that the other art he is highly ranked in was descended from Samurai warriors and is a mixture of Okinawan Jujutsu/Kyokushin/something else/ something else.
I forgot the last 2 but they were just as goofy as the first 2.
Since there is no such thing as Okinawan JJ and Kyokushin was only made 50 years ago his claims the came from "Samurai" are both bogus and sad. I have no idea what he really teaches but I do know he does a stun gun kata (no joke) that is quite electrifying. ....................................................................


:asian: 
Don't get me started......:shrug: 

:asian: 
chufeng

What I mean is...
A lot of people LOVE to be lied to...
The bigger the lie...the more it is believed...
Sort of like ..."I did not have sex with that woman..."

but then, only the ultra left bought that lie 


:asian:
chufeng


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## lungshihpo (Jul 11, 2002)

Jason, I am not out to get anyone, and that wasn't to say you are a "fake." I don't really know you, nor do I know much about the history behind your art. I was just stating how I feel about the importance of legitamicy, thats all.

ok,Im sorry, I wasn't sure, after all that has been said in this thread,you never know!honestly when I made this website,I never would of thought it would have spread the way it has,from now on i will put more actual techniques,than just someone getting nailed,because i see the things you all do, in the ones who are not trained,but it was only fair to put them on the site as well,because they were showing up every sunday,and that gave us plenty of sparring practice against  uncontrolled fighters!plus they were having a ball just being able to fight with out consequence. were all here to have fun and learn,just some are little rowdy,but that is ok "sometime".but thanks


Jason:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 11, 2002)

> Is there indeed a TKD-Sikaran connection?



 I have discused this in the filipino arts area.   The claim of Greonimo teaching the Koreans the spining hook kick is most likely utterly false., and only so much piled high and deep.  Yes Geronimo did study korean karate,  the old men in the islands wouldn't teach him all their kicking  techniques so he studied TKD to supplament his Japanise style  and told everyone he was teaching Sikaran.  Because Sikaran had almost disappeared from the islands except in rural remote areas not many people knew the difference.   Many people in the Islands give claim to that which is not true to make themsleves sound more ligit or larger than life.

 Shadow

 For those of you who don't know me I am a thirty + years student of Sikaran   most certianly never studied from Geronimo or his students BUT I have had some of his old students who came to the states ask me to teach them


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## Matt Stone (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> 
> *I'll let this drop after this.
> 
> The school in the springs was recently started. It is not the main school. That is in Denver.*



Since I visited that school while stationed at Fort Carson in support of Operation Desert Storm in March of 1991, your definition of the word "recently" may need some revision...



> *I agree poor technique discipline seems to reign within the schools. But that's the fault of the instructors. The classes are very relaxed and no time is spent on learning proper technique. One of my pet peeves.*



If poor technique and poor instruction is the rule, not the exception, how can you stand by and state that the time you spent there was well invested and you got good information from them?



> *Sin The's rise to grandmastery - well, I didn't sign up because he was a "grandmaster". I truly don't care. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who claims grandmastership is suspect.*



I would agree with you fully on that point.  It is one thing to say you created a style.  It is another to say you are the head instructor.  It is a whole 'nother animal to start tossing "master" and "grandmaster" titles into the mix...



> *I had heard two stories. The first where he purchased is rank, which is common in martial arts communities, the second where he attained it normally.*



I would agree that it, unfortunately, seems more and more common for folks to purchase their rank instead of earning it.  In the end, though, I am reminded of what one of my seniors once said to an errant student about ranking: 



> *"You can wear whatever you want, but when we get out on the floor, everyone will know the real deal."*



I think that says it all...



> *500 forms? it's possible...mastering them ? not possible. it would take your entire lifetime everyday for hours a day.*



And I think that is why people think SD is doody.



> *But having been in it, I have to say that the information taught was quality information. Just not the way it was taught. *



I guess I can understand that comment, from that perspective.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai:  :samurai:


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## Cruentus (Jul 12, 2002)

> The claim of Greonimo teaching the Koreans the spining hook kick is most likely utterly false.



tshadowchaser: Intersting! I am going to have some more questions for you (when I get a chance, I'll post it on the FMA forum). I have mostly a Modern Arnis background, but lately I have been expanding my horizons and learning a little about the other FMA.

I don't really know much about Geronimo/Sakaran, or other forms of Sakaran, or the history behind them (I was just going by what I read) but I'd like to learn a little more!  

Talk to you later,
PAUL


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## Monkey King (Jul 12, 2002)

I know that the school in the springs recently underwent a severe transformation. The instructor who was there when you were there, let' s just say was of questionable character. It happens. At least this is what I've heard.

You are correct, I need to readjust my timeline.




> If poor technique and poor instruction is the rule, not the exception, how can you stand by and state that the time you spent there was well invested and you got good information from them?



I never said it was the rule. There are those who are gifted at teaching and those who are not. Some people shouldn't be teachers and for that matter in the martial arts.  I'm reminded of the hapkido black belt here in town who would go out and start fights just to test his skill.

I should've been more precise and clarified that "Jr Instructors" seem to be more relaxed. I grew up in Shotokan Karate where the 7th degree instructor was adimate about going over technique. Hard demand and strict discipline are what I am used to. 
My instructor in Shaolin-DO was David Soard, a 7th degree bb who insisted on technique quality, power and timing. Not everybody teaches that way. My close friend who is a 4th dan in Taekwondo doesn't teach that way. 

Not everyone is of the same ilk.

Having been in the military,( I'm guessing you were) you would understand this. I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps and can honestly tell you that not everyone was up to par, including NCO's and staff NCO's.

Excellence is something that each individual must acheive and define. 



> "You can wear whatever you want, but when we get out on the floor, everyone will know the real deal."



That is so true. When I studied there, one of the 5th degree black belts took 4th place in the Sabaki challenge.



> 500 forms? it's possible...mastering them ? not possible. it would take your entire lifetime everyday for hours a day.





> I think that is why people think SD is doody



I don't care what people think.

I know 85 forms. I believe by the time you reach 5th degree it gets up to around 200.

Keep in mind some of these are "short forms" and "long forms" and weapons.

I can tell you this, the forms are practical, skillful, and challenging. They are filled with strikes, blocks, counters, and evasion techniques. They are indeed quality forms.

Shaolin-Do has been around the U.S. since the late '60's. Go to any school and you will see it packed with students and most are upper belt which means they've been there awhile. Most of the BB in my class had been there since the early '80's. That should speak for itself.

I visited a Taekwondo school here in Denver. The black belt class. Only two students in the class had good skill. The others were average. I asked my friend who was with me why this was. He said that in taekwondo, you are judged alot on effort. Because not everyone has the same skill. I was satisfied with that.

I truly don't know if Sin The is the real deal or not. I've never seen him do a demonstration. And as I said earlier, I really don't care. I didn't sign up because of him. I signed up to learn the art. Which I can honestly say, is indeed quality technique and if I can master what I've learned then it will be an acheivement.


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## lungshihpo (Jul 16, 2002)

That is about exactly the same way we are taught!and cant agree more, the style has beneficial to me,I would not take back the time I spent learning it for nothing!Thanks




Jason:asian:


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## D.Cobb (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *Sort of like ..."I did not have sex with that woman..."
> 
> but then, only the ultra left bought that lie *




HEY!! What do you mean it's a lie?

Oh ok I get it.....
I thought you were trying to tell my wife something........
:rofl: 
--Dave


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## Cruentus (Jul 17, 2002)

and I didn't buy that lie!

Just to let yall know....


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## Nightingale (Jul 17, 2002)

I'm fairly left also, and If ya bought the "I didn't have sex with her" thing, I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell ya cheap.

I just don't think that who he slept with has anything to do with running the country. That issue is between him and hillary and monica, and isn't anyone else's business.


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## arnisador (Jul 17, 2002)

Please move the Bill Clinton discussion to the Locker Room.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## lungshihpo (Jul 17, 2002)

, how it turned to that i dont know!lol


jason:asian:


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## lungshihpo (Jul 21, 2002)

Was wondering if you checked out any of the new clips,if you have let me know wondering your opinion.there is some good ones.thanks.


Jason:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 21, 2002)

Ive been really busy latelty but the second I get time to watch them ill post here.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## lungshihpo (Jul 27, 2002)

sounds great,Thanks


jason:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jul 28, 2002)

Sure it's fun to tape yourself fighting but I suggest you do home made porn instead. I'm sure if you ask you'll have plenty of takers.

Or better yet! Mix the two together! Martial arts porno!

Oh my g*d...I'm drooling now...
:rofl:


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## lungshihpo (Jul 28, 2002)

thats funny we have talked about that ,thanks



Jason


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## GouRonin (Jul 28, 2002)

Is that why your location is listed as _"KY?"_
:rofl:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 28, 2002)

THUD.    

Can we get back on topic please, and leave the 'nekid karate' tread go? (or at least move it to a more apropriate forum?

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jul 28, 2002)

...killjoy...

No more will I even think about sharing my Milk and Vodka drinks with you.

By the way, great seminar with Jack LaTorre today at Renegade's. :erg:  I had fun. Wish you could have stayed.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 28, 2002)

Wish I coulda stays too...woulda been more fun than my evening.


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## lungshihpo (Aug 22, 2002)

have you checked out any of the new clips,if you have which did you like or dislike and why?thanks


JASON:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 22, 2002)

I've been so busy lately I havent had time yet.  But I plan on perusing the new videos soon!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## J-kid (Aug 22, 2002)

THat looks like fun~~!:tank:


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## 7starmantis (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I don't think if the paper bag was wet and rotten that they would have any chance of fighting their way out of it! This is whats known as cleaning of the gene pool!!


7sm


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## Carbon (Aug 22, 2002)

Ya I was in disbelief when whoever said that their daughter was laughing at these that it could be that amusing.

After viewing the videos I was proved very wrong. I was laughing and giggling quite alot.

Some of the people are quite funny to watch them throw kicks. In situations like this I think it would be fun to see how they are compared to a fighter that went there and they video taped themselves with people who were somewhat trained fighters.


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## GouRonin (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *In situations like this I think it would be fun to see how they are compared to a fighter that went there and they video taped themselves with people who were somewhat trained fighters. *



How do you think trained fighters get that way? They train with contact. They take their technique and try to use them as realistic as they can. While I think that these guys still need to spend more in-class time I applaud them for at least trying to bring their training to a higher level through harder contact.

That's why most Judoka, and Boxers would cream the average karateka. Because they train harder and more realistic.

You go ahead and scoff all you want. Do your techniques on a bag and in the air. If I was close I would be in the yard too doing this. Why? Because it's a lot more real than some schools ever get.

When was the last time you trained realistically?


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## 7starmantis (Aug 22, 2002)

I agree that realistic training is the best you can get. However, I can train almost at full contact (90%) with my training buddy because he is doign the same to me. I throw full power punches at him because I know he will be there to block, if not, he will next time, and the same with me.
       On the other hand, getting people together who you don't even know, have no idea of their limitations physically or mentaly, and throwing "half-trained" "MAist" together, is my idea of a really stupid idea. Something is bound to go wrong, and then your in trouble. My point is that realistic is good, but still staying in form. If your flailing around you are likely to hurt yourself very bad. I just think this type of behaviour preomotes bad form, and in turn...injury. Your not training in any style if you are just throwing off balance kicks and such. What good does that do for you?


7sm


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *When was the last time you trained realistically? *



Hey, I was at BJJ this morning.

Mr. Hartman and I have injured one another frequently by hitting one another with sticks (or wooden knives). We had to know what would work. I still recall labeling his arm with a black ad blue mark half the length of my stick--much fun.

I have to agree that a judoka, boxer, savateur, etc., has a real advantage--they know how to hit and be hit (or throw and be thrown), and how to manage range, as well as pace themselves. It really matters.

I wrote about it here.


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## Carbon (Aug 22, 2002)

Actually if you must know the main attraction between me and alot of my friends between 15 to 20 people is boxing.

No we aren't professional boxers. I don't claim to be a trained fighter and I'm not under any instruction because at the this particular time I don't have time.

Me and my friends do a somewhat related thing to the backyard martial art fighting website. Except its boxing, and we have 16 oz. gloves and we video tape some of the fights.

Also we video tape fights that happen at our school. If I can get a hold of copies of the videos I will try to post some on a website so you can view some of us boxing.

I will probably get the same criticism but I must admit it is fun and an adrenaline rush.

We don't try to hurt each other, we usually set rules like don't aim fort he nose and such lol.

Other than that its all in good fun there are tons of different sizes, I'm probably one of the biggest, not in height wise even though I'm around 6'3 but in weight. I weigh like 255 lbs. 

So if I can get the video's and the equipment to link it up to my computer I will show yall some clips.


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## lungshihpo (Aug 22, 2002)

posted by 7 star:
On the other hand, getting people together who you don't even know, have no idea of their limitations physically or mentaly, and throwing "half-trained" "MAist" together, is my idea of a really stupid idea.

how do you know so much from a 30 sec fight clip,the street fighters come because they have fun and they like to fight,not to look pretty(a real fight is not pretty).and going hard with NHB rules,is not going to look like a premeditated drill.thanks gou you have the idea we do.and carbon contact me if you need help getting your clips on the web

thanks,jason:asian:


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## 7starmantis (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lungshihpo _
> 
> *posted by 7 star:
> On the other hand, getting people together who you don't even know, have no idea of their limitations physically or mentaly, and throwing "half-trained" "MAist" together, is my idea of a really stupid idea.
> ...



I can watch a 30 second clip and tell alot about a fighter. I can tell alot about his/her art, training, and even sometimes their passion. Thats why I do alot of judging at tournaments. I'm not saying they don't have fun, or shouldn't do it, I simply said it was a situation that is not indusive of proper training. Also, who said anything about looking pretty? I've been in my share of conflicts, and none were ever pretty, but technique may not = pretty, does = effective. What I said was bad technique, not bad entertainment.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Aug 22, 2002)

On a side note, I think its looks like alot of fun, there are several buddies of mine who basicaly d othe same thing, BUT, we focus on proper technique. Why else would you do it, if your goal is to become a better fighter, than you should fight, and train properly. Aks any boxing, MA, judo, basketball, footbal, pingpong coach. Proper training is what leads to sucess. Ask the police officer who trained with the rubber gun, and when confronted executed perfectly, then picked the gun up and handed it back to the assailent. He was used to doing that. Thats the only point I'm making.


7sm


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## Kirk (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *On a side note, I think its looks like alot of fun, there are several buddies of mine who basicaly d othe same thing, BUT, we focus on proper technique. Why else would you do it, if your goal is to become a better fighter, than you should fight, and train properly. Aks any boxing, MA, judo, basketball, footbal, pingpong coach. Proper training is what leads to sucess. Ask the police officer who trained with the rubber gun, and when confronted executed perfectly, then picked the gun up and handed it back to the assailent. He was used to doing that. Thats the only point I'm making.
> 
> ...



A buddy of mine is a detention officer.  He said he's seen it quite
a few times where another officer will wrestle a fighting prisoner
down to the ground, and pin him.  Only to quickly release the
prisoner immediately, once the prisoner tapped out.


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 23, 2002)

7starmantis, most of the guys in the videos have no training but a handful do and I think the trained ones are getting the most benefit out of wild non trained attackers coming at them in all kinds of different ways.  In all my street confrontations its always been some wild untrained attack.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Carbon (Aug 23, 2002)

How do you benefit fighting in a match thats squared up and in protective gear with an inferior fighter?

I thought the idea was to fight someone better than you to learn from them.

Its also not a wild untrained fighter. Its someone throwing weak flailing punches that anyone could dodge trained or untrained.


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 23, 2002)

Carbon if you watch ALL the videos you see more than weak punches.  As for the training there is an element of danger and unpredictablility that makes it hard for even trained martial artists to perform under pressure and that is why I think its beneficial to the few trained ones among them.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## 7starmantis (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Carbon if you watch ALL the videos you see more than weak punches.  As for the training there is an element of danger and unpredictablility that makes it hard for even trained martial artists to perform under pressure and that is why I think its beneficial to the few trained ones among them.
> 
> ...



You mean the few sort of trained ones, right ?


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## Carbon (Aug 23, 2002)

Whats to fear? You know your not going to die. You know that your not going to get seriously injuried.

I am afraid to say that I can't see how any of the people fighting are in a fear for themselves or their lives. No there aren't weak punches and yes there are some.

Does it really matter how much power you can generate if you can't hit what your aiming for?


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 23, 2002)

7starmantis, some of them have trained for several years, not exactly "sort of" trained

Carbon, most people are afraid of getting hit, don't have to fear for your life to experience fear, pressure, stress and anxiety.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## KennethKu (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *How do you benefit fighting in a match thats squared up and in protective gear with an inferior fighter?
> 
> ...




The guys who are mostly to initiate violence against you are not your typical well trained martial artists nor your glasses-wearing accountant/bookeepers.  More likely a construction worker . (Sorry for the stereotype, just need to borrow the image of a rough neck :asian: ).  He is most likely well experienced in the use of violence and pretty accustomed to getting punched. And he is going to open up on you with a barrage of lighting fast left and right punches, before you are even prepared. In fact , catching you by surprise is to his advantage. No ******** here. Brute force is surprisingly very effective. It can overwhelm the well trained MA experts if the factor of surprise is thrown in.  

And that would be the guy, people tend to presume as, "untrained and inferior "

Your only option is to always be on alert of the situation and ensure you have a buffer zone where you can kick the crap out of the guy before he catches you in a surprise.


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## Carbon (Aug 23, 2002)

Ya thats a very good point that I agree with.

Surprises can alter a situation quite alot.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

I don't agree, I think that if he believes he is surprising me, he is allready at a disadvantage. If he believes he is surprising me than he has to believe that his first attack will go un-challenged, or at least innefeciently challenged. With the yielding and plucking in 7*pm he would be very surprised to see how his initial attack and the mor brute force he gives, only turn to retaliate worse against him. If you rush me, that only means I will be behind you with a clean shot faster. The faster you rush at me, the faster I am able to "disapear" in front of you and deliver a very effective elbow or knee crush from the side, or back.

That is why training is so important. The more you train, the less effective "street" attacks like you mentioned are goign to be. 


JMHO

7sm


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 25, 2002)

"If you rush me, that only means I will be behind you with a clean shot faster. The faster you rush at me, the faster I am able to "disapear" in front of you and deliver a very effective elbow or knee crush from the side, or back."

heh

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

If you have ever sparred a mantis person you would deffinatly understand! You push in and they are gone. Its a major technique in the mantis system.


7sm


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## lungshihpo (Aug 25, 2002)

I dont understand what there is not to like about this site,yes safety is involved,but that is a concern anywhere,in a dojo dont make it any safer,ninjutsu from the site is trained in cpr,and i have some knowledge about pressure points and bones,for that matter my teacher only lives a street over and sometime he is here,alot of people come in here and think we dont train,well me and 1or2 others do train and we do it often,lately we have been training at a "MMA club",and have class on mon,wed,fri,oh hey damian, maybe were more legitmate skill now,lol,(can never please the critics)but on this site you can see where your  training can hold up against a wild fighter,we have fun and learn doing it,to each his own.





Jason:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 25, 2002)

Well...... I can make a guess as to why so many people are ready to condemn you for what your doing.  Ego, fear, insecurity.  We all want to believe that what we're doing (what art we train in and how we train) is preparing us for a real life encounter, from the Tai Chi guys to the MMA guys and everyone in between.  So when some of us go to your site and we see you training in a way that is completely foreign to 95% of martial artists out there we get a little upset.  We want to right you off as a lunatic or unskilled punk so that it legitimizes what we ourselves are doing.  I am not judging the people that do this, I think it's quite normal even if I disagree with them.  I have always tried to keep an open mind but more than that I firmly believe the best form of self defence training is similar to what you are doing.



Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## 7starmantis (Aug 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Well...... I can make a guess as to why so many people are ready to condemn you for what your doing.  Ego, fear, insecurity.  We all want to believe that what we're doing (what art we train in and how we train) is preparing us for a real life encounter, from the Tai Chi guys to the MMA guys and everyone in between.  So when some of us go to your site and we see you training in a way that is completely foreign to 95% of martial artists out there we get a little upset.  We want to right you off as a lunatic or unskilled punk so that it legitimizes what we ourselves are doing.  I am not judging the people that do this, I think it's quite normal even if I disagree with them.  I have always tried to keep an open mind but more than that I firmly believe the best form of self defence training is similar to what you are doing.
> 
> ...



:rofl:  I don't think ego, insecurity, or wanting to believe what I study is the best of the best, has anything to do with my comments about this site. If you look back and read my posts, you will see that the only critical comments were that he is likely to get sued by some punk who gets his head handed to him and then gets mad. (If a theif can sue someone when he breaks into their house and cuts his leg...anything can happen). Also, I'm not writing anyone off as a lunatic, as far as unskilled, I'm not coming to that decision lightely, I've watched every video on that page, I can say, I haven't seen anyone who is extremely skilled at all.

My point against that practice, is that you get in bad habits. Throwing off balance kicks and punches time after time will only hurt you in the long run. 


7sm


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## Cruentus (Aug 26, 2002)

this thread is very interesting.

I'll add my 2 cents:

What is training realistically? Training realistically is realizing the limitations of your training, how combat will be different then your training, while always keeping in mind the combat applications of your training.

If you do those three things above, then you will be able to make the translation from training to reality when needed. If you don't you won't. It's just that simple.

No matter how tough your fighting is, when you add rules or regulations to the mix, it is no longer combat...it is training! I have seen and heard about NHB fighters who have had there asses handed to them on the street by the untrained someone who just wanted to hurt them. Why? Because although there training was tough, they didn't realize it's limitations, how combat would differ, and how to tweak their technique for the change.

So...train how you like. I like both hard contact, and technical training myself. If you like the hard contact, then great. If not, then that's O.K. too. Just understand the three rules prevously stated so that you'll always be training for reality.

:asian:


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## 7starmantis (Aug 26, 2002)

I just wnated to clarify me stand, I LOVE hard contact.  I don't think you should avoid it, I think you should deffinatly train with it, even without rules, thats the only way I train. I never said use rules, I said use your head. If you are flailing around you are not learning how to be a better fighter. If you telegraph your move much more than a little, a trained MA will capitalize on it. Thats what I was trying to get across. It seems these types of events do not facilitate sharp skills, thats all.


7sm


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 26, 2002)

7starmantis, I was generalising a bit and not referring to you in particular...this thread is 13 pages long, people were blindly condemning it before you came onto the thread.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## lungshihpo (Aug 28, 2002)

I don't think if the paper bag was wet and rotten that they would have any chance of fighting their way out of it! This is whats known as cleaning of the gene pool!!


7sm



well call me crazy,but that seems pretty critical!!!and as far as me and the one we call ninjutsu,we do train proper technique,and then try to apply it realistically against someone going all out,that changes everything!!thanks

Jason:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 28, 2002)

Oh for crying out loud your right, 7starmantis YOU ARE one of the people I was refering to. Shame on you! haha

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## 7starmantis (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Oh for crying out loud your right, 7starmantis YOU ARE one of the people I was refering to. Shame on you! haha
> 
> ...



If you are truly practicing a MA system, nothing should cahnge when "fighting all out" like you said. You guys claim it changes everything, not for me. Nothing changes, that is the nature of my art. If I let it change I have allready lost. If I keep my cool, if I focus the same as in training, NOTHING will change, adn the outcome will be in my determination. I'm sorry, I was trying to be funny with that comment, I can't say I know for a fact that no one on that site can fight, but the video's I didn't see anything resembling trained fighting. You should be able to control your opponent, that is what you train for. If "everything changes" then you have allready failed in that fight. You may train alot, I don't know, but those videos were no proof of it. If you cannot execute the same in a "real fight" as you do in training, you are failing in your training as well.


7sm


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 28, 2002)

You are so confident in your ability you are either (a) completely clueless and delusional in your ability to fight for real based on your practice in the dojang (dojo, training centre) while never actually testing yourself against an enraged aggressive attacker or, (b) just that good! 

I'm mostly being funny here so don't take offence, you probably are that good.  I am pretty confident after 12 years of serious training but I lack the level of confidence to think in your terms.  Maybe I'm a pessimist but I always assume the worst and try to train for the worst.  Which doesn't allow for too much confidence on my part.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## 7starmantis (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *You are so confident in your ability you are either (a) completely clueless and delusional in your ability to fight for real based on your practice in the dojang (dojo, training centre) while never actually testing yourself against an enraged aggressive attacker or, (b) just that good!
> 
> ...



I have trained in CMA since I was 7, so yes I have confidence, probably more than I should though. I train very hard, and even, yes, very similar to what you guys are doing. In fact, I find it fun to just go out and have a good night at "fight Club", but I think it is detrimental to your skills. Have I ever tested my MA training in "real life"? Yes, several times, and I really don't wish to do it again. My first several years in MA when I was old enough to get into fights (junior high school, and High school) I fought way to much. Those first several years, I fought alot like what I saw on those videos. I'm only trying to critique, not critisize. I know, my wet paper bag comment was off said, sorry about that. Its just that when you reach that plane, where no one can get you flustered enough to lose your control of the situation, it is amazing. Now, I'm not saying there is no one who could get me flustered, I get that way almost everytime I think I'm going to have to fight, I just have to control it. I think you guys probably have a foot up on most street fighters, but true martial artist who have mastered the art of controling the situation, that is where it becomes sticky. So street fighting, you guys have it good, but I just think you will eventually understand my point about control.


7sm


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 29, 2002)

7starmantis, thats cool.  Just to clarify I'm not one of the guys in the videos, that's Jason (Lungshipo).  But I do try to train similiarly to that, and it's always with other skilled martial artists..... I don't know anyone outside martial arts that would put up with the beatings some of those guys take heh.  Maybe I live in a nicer neighbourhood.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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