# Hey Mom, I will have you arrested if you spank me!



## Lisa (Jun 19, 2008)

A proposed law that could see parents charged for spanking their children is heading to the House of Commons after clearing a major hurdle in the Senate.

Full Story

The story states:



> It is not to arrest everyone who gives their child a tap on the arm.



but it also states:



> Routine discipline and using spanking as premeditated punishment wouldn't be allowed.



So mothers and fathers will no longer be able to use a threat of a spanking to keep children in line?  That would be premeditated, wouldn't it?

"Smarten up, or I will give you a spanking" is no longer allowed.


----------



## mrhnau (Jun 19, 2008)

Some of those dimwits that crafted such a law should have been spanked more as a child. geez...


----------



## CoryKS (Jun 19, 2008)

Tried the "touch me and I'll call the police" line on my mom once.  

Her reply was, "Fine.  Call them.  But if I'm going to jail for hitting you, I'm going to get my full money's worth before they arrive."

Mom 1, Cory 0


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 19, 2008)

well I guess I will be going to jail or fine alot, because I believe in spankings.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jun 19, 2008)

My kids tried that once and I told them they had better hide well because I would find them when I got out. They decided to do as I asked in the first place and not have to worry about being punished the first and 2nd time around


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 19, 2008)

That's ridiculous, there is a line between giving your child a proper spanking and going overboard.  I can understand wanting to protect children against abuse, but you aren't going to accomplish what you want by not allowing parents to spank their children.

Kids understand pain/pleasure when they are young.  You touch a hot stove and it causes pain you don't do it again.  A child doesn't have the mental faculties or development to understand a morals conversation on why they shouldn't do that.


----------



## Kacey (Jun 19, 2008)

It is much easier to outlaw spanking all together than it is to differentiate between a reasonable consequence and abuse; a friend of mine nearly lost her child when her ex-husband saw her swat her 16 month-old on his diapered behind to keep him away from a cement staircase - I was there too, and ended up going to court with her to testify that the swat was to a) keep him away from an open stairwell (safety) and b) that the open-handed contact to diaper was not intended to cause pain, but rather to produce a sharp noise intended to scare the toddler away from a dangerous situation - certainly, his reaction did not indicate pain.  She won - but it was disturbingly close.

Another time, when I was a substitute in a local school, I asked a 7th grader if I needed to call her mother about her behavior.  Her response, was, roughly:  Go ahead and call; she won't do anything, because if she does I'll call the Welfare lady and tell her my mom hit me, they'll take me away, and she'll lose the Welfare money for me - so she won't do squat.  Remember, this girl was 12 or 13.

Child abuse is deplorable.  It is horrific.  It is too easily confused with discipline, and thus laws are written that encompass too much instead of too little.  Nonetheless - it is time that parents be allowed to parent, instead of children being allowed to run rampant because parents are afraid to discipline them, for fear of legal action being taken against them.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 19, 2008)

Child abuse *is* horrific. But careful, selected spanking *can* be effective in some cases.

My daughter tried the "I'll call 911" thing too.  I handed her the phone and told her what would happen legally to each person in the family during the investigation.  About foster homes, the splitting up of her siblings, the jail time for me, the court time, etcetera.  Then I told her if she really felt she had done nothing to deserve what she got and was truthfully abused to make the call - I would go through what I had to if she needed that much assurance that I was not a child abuser.

She gave the phone back to me.


----------



## brianhunter (Jun 19, 2008)

My story was similar to Cory's......

"I'll call the cops if you lay a hand on me" - 12 year old dumb me

"Have your bags ready 'cause your going with them" - Granddad

Guess who won!


----------



## girlbug2 (Jun 19, 2008)

What ridiculous times we live in.

I wonder how many of the "spanking is always abuse" set have kids themselves, and how they turned out when they grew up. 

The fact is that some kids just need more physical discipline than others. My two boys demonstrated that to me at very early ages. The older one responded to correction only if it was accompanied by a swat on the rear, the younger one knew when to stop pushing the limits and straighten up before it came to that. I imagine that people who say "I never spank my kid, that's abuse" had kids more like my easygoing younger one-- they have no clue!

(well, either that or their kid was like my older one and became an intolerable brat because they were never spanked!)


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 19, 2008)

I've dealt with that sort of crap.  There's no excuse for HARMING a kid deliberately.  That doesn't mean that there's no room for reasonable physical discipline -- and it makes a hell of a lot more sense than trying to "reason" with a 2 or 3 year old who barely understands that other people have feelings or exist as other than animated toys.  Which I've seen done...  

What'd I do?  Remember, these tend to be kids that are old enough to realize what they're up to; say 8 to 12 years old.  (Note that spanking or other pain based corporal discipline becomes pretty inappropriate after about 8 or 9, except in very rare circumstances.)  I explained to the kid that I wasn't going to arrest their parent for a spanking that didn't leave a mark, or denying a kid dessert after they had a full dinner, taking their cell phone away, or whatever stupidity it was and was brought on by their stupid antics.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 19, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> There's no excuse for HARMING a kid deliberately.


This sentence reminded me of what my teacher says - it goes something like this: 'I will hurt you. I will not *damage* you, but I will hurt you. I will cause you pain because you must know what that feels like and you must learn from it.'

We don't do our children *any* favors by keeping them from all pain, all suffering.  We *must* do things as parents that will hurt them, their hearts, their egos, their butts.


----------



## brianhunter (Jun 19, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> This sentence reminded me of what my teacher says - it goes something like this: 'I will hurt you. I will not *damage* you, but I will hurt you. I will cause you pain because you must know what that feels like and you must learn from it.'
> 
> We don't do our children *any* favors by keeping them from all pain, all suffering. We *must* do things as parents that will hurt them, their hearts, their egos, their butts.


 
I really like the way you put that!


----------



## Big Don (Jun 19, 2008)

brianhunter said:


> I really like the way you put that!


I'll second that. That is a very nice turn of phrase.


----------



## Kreth (Jun 19, 2008)

My son tried that once. I told him to make sure they sent the coroner out with the cops. He decided against making the call (well, after asking me what a coroner was...)

I really think (and I've mentioned this before) that the rudeness of the younger generation has a lot to do with the decline in corporal punishement. When I was a kid, you simply *did not* swear at an adult. Odds are, they would slap the taste out of your mouth, and then when you complained to your parents (if they hadn't heard the news already), you'd get a beating. :lol:


----------



## Lisa (Jun 19, 2008)

Many young pre-adults and young adults seem to have this sense of entitlement.  They feels they are entitled to their own opinion, entitled to be treated a certain way by others and entitled to treat others as they see fit (sometimes not in the nicest way).

The problem is that they don't understand that with a sense of entitlement also comes consequences.  If you feel you are so entitled to act a certain way or do a certain thing, you are also entitled to the back lash from your actions.  THAT is the key part they seem to be missing.


----------



## MJS (Jun 19, 2008)

When my sister and I were growing up, our parents gave us a whack on the *** if we deserved it.  Was it child abuse?  Of course not.  There is a huge difference between a little whack vs. repeatedly beating the child.

Kids will use this as an excuse, and this is probably why I take so many calls at work from parents who say that their child isn't listening to them.  Hmmm...so let me get this right.  You have a child, he's not listening, so you call the police?  IMHO, its people like that, that shouldn't have kids.  

Of course, my parents also raised me with 'the look.'  You know..that look that they give you, when you're acting up, that silently says, "If you don't stop what you're doing, you're gonna get it!"   9 times out of 10, the look worked.


----------



## mrhnau (Jun 19, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Many young pre-adults and young adults seem to have this sense of entitlement.  They feels they are entitled to their own opinion, entitled to be treated a certain way by others and entitled to treat others as they see fit (sometimes not in the nicest way).
> 
> The problem is that they don't understand that with a sense of entitlement also comes consequences.  If you feel you are so entitled to act a certain way or do a certain thing, you are also entitled to the back lash from your actions.  THAT is the key part they seem to be missing.


And how do they get this sense of entitlement? Often they see it in their parents, tv, in school and in leaders. We live in a litigious society, where we all have "rights" and we demand they be honored.

Then again, this might be an issue of parents not raising their kids the right way. Some of the responses from posters on this thread have been great, and probably whats needed to quench that kind of attitude LOL


----------



## Kacey (Jun 19, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Many young pre-adults and young adults seem to have this sense of entitlement.  They feels they are entitled to their own opinion, entitled to be treated a certain way by others and entitled to treat others as they see fit (sometimes not in the nicest way).
> 
> The problem is that they don't understand that with a sense of entitlement also comes consequences.  If you feel you are so entitled to act a certain way or do a certain thing, you are also entitled to the back lash from your actions.  THAT is the key part they seem to be missing.



I see this with disturbing regularity at the middle school where I work - and the schools have no latitude at all; the sequence of discipline is call the parent, send the child to the office, detention, more detention, in-school suspension, out-of-school suspension, expulsion.  Of course, for "mere" profanity, it rarely, if ever, gets past detention.  I got very tired, last year, of one of my students saying "this is whacked... **** you" and then yelling at me for sending  him out of class - but I couldn't teach with him in the room.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Jun 19, 2008)

I'll never condone hitting a kid *just* for the sake of hitting them, but I have absolutely no problem with, say, a parent giving 'em a whack upside the head for something like swearing in public.

But then, I'm not someone who even believes anybody has the right or need to have children anymore, at all, period because the way I see it, this is finally the generation that's gonna be the one to send the world Round The Bowl And Down The Hole, so there's no point makin' any more kids now, who will never live to see adolescence, never mind adulthood.

And that's if they COULD be expected to receive proper discipline, which I don't believe is true.


----------



## Big Don (Jun 19, 2008)

We've all heard the phrase: "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you." and that is it, if it doesn't bother you to smack your kid when a smack is warranted, you're doing it wrong.
If you smack your kid or kick your dog or hit your spouse, just because you feel like it, you're doing it wrong, and something is wrong with you.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Jun 19, 2008)

Big Don said:


> We've all heard the phrase: "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you." and that is it, if it doesn't bother you to smack your kid when a smack is warranted, you're doing it wrong...



I'm not a fan of spanking, but I find a great deal of sense in this observation, Don.

I had a very chilling moment one evening on a street corner a few years ago when I stopped to get a coffee. As I was coming back to the car, I spotted a woman shaking her child, whom I guessed to be of primary school age. The shaking was persistent, and the mom was agitated and screaming. Mind you, we're talking about shaking, which is extremely dangerous, not spanking.

What frightened me about the incident was how angry and out-of-control the parent was, and how obviously terrified the child was. I called out several times from across the street, my open cellphone glowing in my hand, asking the woman if she was alright and if she needed help. When she got mad and cursed at me, I explained that I was concerned for her child and was prepared to call the police if need be.

She spun around on her heels, forgot about shrieking at her child and went into a convenience store, arms flailing as she was angrily telling others inside about my rudeness. Fine. She was mad at me and not the kid.

Now back to spanking... like I said, I'm not a fan. I believe that we have children everyday who are in grave physical and emotional danger, and we do not do a very good job of protecting them. I shudder at the thought of criminal justice and youth protection resources being expended to curb spanking.

What bothers me about spanking in this era is that I question the parenting judgment applied prior to the moment the parent decided that spanking was the answer. I think a lot of kids get spanked only after the parent has failed to enforce boundaries and maintain control, and then suddenly decides the kid is being rotten. You can't stuff a kid full of junk food, let him or her stay up until all hours, buy them off with gifts, and then decide s/he is out of control.

This little tidbit from the CBC article was an eye-opener.



> Bill S-209, which needs House approval to be made into law, proposes to eliminate Section 43 of Canada's Criminal Code, which allows parents, *teachers and caregivers* to use reasonable force to discipline a child and correct their behaviour.



I'd like to see more fine print on this. I'm a teacher. In my business physical punishment of someone else's kid has been professionally discredited and is seen as career-ending stupidity. I was paddled by Christian Brothers (a Roman Catholic teaching order) thirty-five years ago. It didn't hurt me personally, but it was a different time, and I cannot imagine how I might react if a teacher did that to my son.

When I deal with a difficult child -- I'm certified for Kindergarten to grade eight -- one of first things that I have to remember is that kid may already be very well-versed at be screamed at or hit. What that child may have learned is that when you get angry, it is acceptable to scream at someone or hit them.

I think there are probably parents who can use spanking effectively, as part of a managed and sensible regimen of discipline. What I suspect is that there fewer and fewer parents with that much sense and forethought.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo (Jun 19, 2008)

I often have to respond to calls about parents unable to control their children.  Usually, after hearing what the child is doing, I ask them (somewhat jokingly, of course) if they beat their child.  When they say no, I ask them why not.

Now, I am not suggesting that they beat their children.  I do go on to say that I have found, in my experience, that corporal punishment is a very effective tool.  I advise them that they can not bruise, cut, or cause them to bleed.  I also tell them, as corporal punishment is legally allowable in California, that the child has no right to self-defense.  If the child fights back, we will come out and take them to jail for assualt.

As to feeling bothered by spanking a child, I completely disagree.  I have no problem with spanking my children.  I have seen what the consequenses of not doing so entail.  I have no problems with my 3 1/2 year old daughter listening to me now, whereas my ex-wife still does.  That is because spanking is an effective tool.

And, quite frankly, it is more likely that spanking was raised to the level of abuse more in the past then now.  We have more knowledge as a society as to what abuse entails.

Also, I disagree with the overprotectiveness of governmental agencies.  the mere suggestion, with no evidence, on the part of the children that they are scared is enough to pull children from their homes.  It is ridiculous.  Quite frankly, to some extent, while they are children, I want my children to fear me.  The older they get, the more knowledgeable they will become and be able to intellectualize what I have done.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 19, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Many young pre-adults and young adults seem to have this sense of entitlement.  They feels they are entitled to their own opinion, entitled to be treated a certain way by others and entitled to treat others as they see fit (sometimes not in the nicest way).
> 
> The problem is that they don't understand that with a sense of entitlement also comes consequences.  If you feel you are so entitled to act a certain way or do a certain thing, you are also entitled to the back lash from your actions.  THAT is the key part they seem to be missing.


Many of them have been treated as adults long before they earned the right to be treated that way.  Too many parents have tried for years to be their kid's pals and buddies -- when both would be happier if they were to be PARENTS first, and become pals or buddies when the kids are older.  My relationship with my parents is different today than it was when I was 15, or even 21.  I expect it'll be different still in another 10 or 15 years.


----------



## CanuckMA (Jun 20, 2008)

How about this for going overboard:

http://news.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/Co...line=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 20, 2008)

CanuckMA said:


> How about this for going overboard:
> 
> http://news.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/Co...line=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True



:barf:


----------



## Kacey (Jun 20, 2008)

CanuckMA said:


> How about this for going overboard:
> 
> http://news.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/Co...line=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True



The mind boggles. :duh::idunno::eye-popping:


----------



## Lisa (Jun 20, 2008)

Reminds me of a recent conversation I overhead between two young girls while sitting in a mall cafeteria.

One was expressing how her mother bought her a cell phone and was paying for the service but she lived with only the father.

Anyways, I guess she got a little snotty with the dad and he threatened to take her phone away.  So she quickly phoned her mother and asked if her dad had the right to do that, her mother said no, because she was paying for it.

So, she went and told her dad he had no right.

Now, I am sorry, but I think that is just wrong of the mother to say that to her daughter.  If she is being a little brat to the dad, and the kid is in his house, his rules should apply and the mom should support him, no matter how much she may dislike him since the divorce.  It is just sending the wrong message to the kid and giving her way too much power.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 20, 2008)

i agree with everything shesulsa has written here


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Jun 20, 2008)

Right. Executive Order. Effective immediately. No more breeding. Anywhere.

(yeah, I know, unenforceable but the way I feel right now I wish it was).


----------



## Kacey (Jun 20, 2008)

I have way too many middle school students who think this way.  Some of their parents couldn't car less when the school calls; others pay lip service to taking "the right steps" and doing nothing; very rarely, we'll have a parent who actually follows through on their child's behavior.  It's pretty obvious the next day whose parents have actually done anything by the child's attitude.  Now, I'm not saying that all - or even most - of the parents who have kids at my school are bad kids, but then again, the ones who have good parents rarely get in trouble.

On the other hand, there's a _reason_ why all the assistant principals in my school come in to work every Monday morning to a string of phone calls from parents asking what the school is going to do about the behavior of one of the students - some from the parents of the wronged child (teased, bullied, knocked down, stolen from, etc.) and some from the parents of the child who did the teasing, bullying, knocking down, stealing, etc., wanting to know why the _school_ hasn't taught the child better manners.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Jun 20, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Right. Executive Order. Effective immediately. No more breeding. Anywhere.



Whew.... glad I got mine done when I had the chance


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Jun 20, 2008)

But see, now, if every parent was like you, I woulda never have had to do this in the first place


----------



## BrandiJo (Jun 20, 2008)

i tried that... once... and my mother assured me that if i called the cops she would make sure they had a reason to be there by the time she got done with me.  I kinda decided against it.


----------



## Empty Hands (Jun 20, 2008)

Well, only the good die young, and no good deed goes unpunished, so it should surprise no one that these sorts of measures will cause enormous amounts of pain and chaos to parents using reasonable discipline, while horrendous abuse goes unchecked.  Somehow, parents can abuse their children horribly for years, while a woman's baby who had an allergic reaction to a vaccine is taken away for years.

Eventually, all forms of corporal discipline will be banned in the Western world.  You heard it here first.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Jun 20, 2008)

Oh don't worry, we'll be finished long before that.


----------



## Kacey (Jun 20, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Well, only the good die young, and no good deed goes unpunished, so it should surprise no one that these sorts of measures will cause enormous amounts of pain and chaos to parents using reasonable discipline, while horrendous abuse goes unchecked.  Somehow, parents can abuse their children horribly for years, while a woman's baby who had an allergic reaction to a vaccine is taken away for years.
> 
> Eventually, all forms of corporal discipline will be banned in the Western world.  You heard it here first.



Sadly, I've heard it elsewhere before.

You have to be 16 to get a driver's license; you have to be 18 to vote; you have to be 21 to legally buy alcohol... but any idiot can have a child, and usually does.    It's too bad that there's no way to require parenting licenses _before_ pregnancy.


----------

