# Fancy Kicks



## Zepp

So, about those fancy jumping, spinning, and jump-spin kicks that some of us learn in certain arts:  what do you think of them?

Are they a completely impractical waste of time?
Are they usable in a confrontation outside the dojo or ring?
Would you use them in a tournament?
Is there some value to practicing them?
Have you tried them, Sam I Am?

Let us know.


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## chufeng

My personal bias is to keep my feet under me for as long as possible...especially now that I have such lousy degenerative disease in my knees...

...but, I learned and trained in the "fancier" kicks when I was younger...It certainly helps you develop a sense of distance, beacuse if you are off by a little bit, you'll go down...

...It is a tremendous aerobic workout...try tornado kicks across a gymnasium on one side and then back on the othjer side...if you aren't sucking wind, you are in tremendous shape (or you aren't doing the kick with everything you've got)...

My favorite kicks are front-snap kick, front heel-thrust kick, side-kick, and stopping-foot kick...not very glamorous, but effective, at least for me.

:asian:
chufeng


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## ob2c

There are more practical ways to develope agility and timeing. And, from what I've seen, even in point sparing those super fancy kicks seldom work. In the real world they'll get you flamed.


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## Kope

They develop balance, strength, flexibility, agility, timing ... and they look damn good when done right. 

We're martial ARTISTS after all . . . and if they are part of the heritage of your art, then you should be able to do them as well as you can.

My style has a few, and they are fun . . . but i'd never use a jumping one in a real fight. Some of the spinning ones, however, are a good way to gain a serious surprise factor. Front kick followed by a spinning side kick, for example, has gotten me more than few sparring matches. 

If you're fast and accurate, they're a great surprise weapon. If you're off, you're going down.

So basically, I'd use them in the ring, but not in the street. I train them because they are part of the history of my style.


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## Rich Parsons

I voted maybe . . . 


Why?

Because, you see if I know it in theory, then it helps me understand how it can be used against me.

Also, being a large guy, putting my foot upside or near someone's upper chest or head, makes them keep their hands up and respect the threat. THis then makes it so much easier to pull off the low line kicks, which I like so much more. 

Just my opinion

:asian:


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## karatekid1975

I'm in between with this poll. 

I love fancy kicks. My school regularly practices them as well has the basic ones. I even do trick kicks. Great exercise, and they look great when done right  But would I do them in a real fight? No. Even an untrained fighter can catch a "flying leg" and dump ya on your butt. It's a no-brainer." I'd stick with the low basic kicks in a real situation.


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## Yari

I'm a firm believer that "fancy kicking" is for agility and flexability, and that in a fight the kicks would be used under the belt.

But I've taken out an attacker using a high mawashigeri. I didn't even thin about it. The opening was there, and it just happened. So since I was flexible i could use it. If I wasn't I'd probably have used somthing else.

/Yari


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## Jester

Not sure about this one, they are great fun to do and they look great which I think are good enough reasons to train in them. But as for the practicalities as it stands at the moment I might use them in competition (that's a big maybe though) but I would never even think about using them in a real life situation.

But..... is that more to do with the fact that I'm not very good at them. I've seen martial artists do these techniques with devestating speed and power, would they use them in real life?


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## Kenpodoc

Personally I like a good head kick.  Bend your opponent over and kick them in the head or better yet, Knock them to the ground and kick them.   

Frankly I admire  fancy athletic spinning and flying kicks.  I don't believe they would be much good on the street (too much risk) but in the safe enviroment of the studio they are fun to watch. I'm sure they're good exercise and great coordination practice but I'm too old and need to keep my injuries to a minimum.

Jeff :boing2:


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## yilisifu

I'm with Chufeng and KenpoDoc.


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## Cryozombie

I once saw Video of a TaiKai (or maybe it was Just a seminar) where a TaeKwondo Blackbelt did some fancy jump spinning kick and the Bujinkan Blackbelt standing there just sort of pulled him out of the air and slammed him onto the ground.  

In the air with no foundation with the earth seems like a bad place to be in a fight.  I think it  looks good if you are doing some fancy Kata to a Musical number for points...  If that's the focus of your training in those techniques, Go for it!


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## Tigertron

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *I once saw Video of a TaiKai (or maybe it was Just a seminar) where a TaeKwondo Blackbelt did some fancy jump spinning kick and the Bujinkan Blackbelt standing there just sort of pulled him out of the air and slammed him onto the ground.
> 
> In the air with no foundation with the earth seems like a bad place to be in a fight.  I think it  looks good if you are doing some fancy Kata to a Musical number for points...  If that's the focus of your training in those techniques, Go for it! *



No NO NO NO!

That is NOT the way things are as far as flying/jumping kicks are concerned. The momentum is already in force when you are airborne. You don't need the feet planted on the ground by then. 

Just because that particular TKD Blackbelt got intercepted, does not in itself rebutts the utility of spinning kick.  

It is mostly those who CANNOT perform such technique that tend to poo-poo the technique.  

A spinning kick is a very powerful strike. One shot to the head and you are down for the count.  Just like any other technique, you tend to use a combination of strikes to create a setup or entry then allow you to execute the "drive home" strike.  You seldom just throw a jumping spining kick for the heck of it.


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## Tigertron

> _Originally posted by Kope _..... Front kick followed by a spinning side kick, for example, has gotten me more than few sparring matches. ...



What's a spinning side kick?


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## A.R.K.

With the exception of a good stretch and great aerobic conditioning.  Useles impo in a real fight.

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *Are they a completely impractical waste of time? *



No, the kicks are good for a lot of various reasons and make a well rounded practictioner.



> Are they usable in a confrontation outside the dojo or ring?



Most likely not. You must face your work and while jump/spinning you'd better hope you don't get caught in mid air.



> Would you use them in a tournament?



Yes I have, and have scored from time to time. They can only be used 2 maybe 3 times and then you had better find something else.



> Is there some value to practicing them?



Of course, Timing, and appreciating the power that comes with each kick should be learned.



> Have you tried them, Sam I Am?



Yes, and I've stated my position on them.


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## A.R.K.

The reason I hold that they are of little use in most real confrontations is personal observation.  In all the uses-of-force I've had on-duty I have never once used any type of kick.  I have however, used numerous knee spikes.

:asian:


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## MartialArtist

"Training in them is good for agility and timing"

Voted for that one.

To ob2c, no, I can't think of any other way to improve agility and timing.  The jumping kicks also develop power.  Look at how other athletes in different sports.  They consist of ballet, plyometrics, power and Olympic lifting, tai chi (just the exercises), and guess what...  A lot of hip movement.

Chances of using a super jumping high kick in a real fight is slim.  Very slim.  I have used it a couple of times and it worked, but the only reason I even did that was I saw a huge opening and the both of us were very tired anyway.  But again, in a fight, simplicity.  Simplicity is the height of cultivation.  But my motto goes, if you can kick high fast, you can kick low faster.

Using a jumping or fancy maneuver in fighting is like someone with the ball jumping in the air in football.  You jump in the air, you have no force behind you.  Then crack, you're on your back, wondering what happened.  A lot of fumbles happen when the guy is in the air and gets drilled.  The time comes where you do have to jump or hop, especially over those pesky defensive backs but all in all, it's rare.  However, with fighting, the chances of using a jumping kick is even less than someone with the ball jumping in the air.  Maybe as a touchdown dance you can jump around all you want, but jumping around after a victory in a street fight...  Not a very smart or moral thing to do.

The only reason I even teach the people at the club high kicks is mainly for those reasons, for indirect training.  It not only helps in combat, but in regular athletics as well.  Correct plyometric training could shave .2 off your 40 yd. dash, make you be able to cut better, jump higher and explode in the air faster.  Makes you explode off the blocks, it helps your balance, it helps your coordination.


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## MartialArtist

Oh yeah, they look cool, but that's not the main reason.  It's kinda a thing you can do just to forget about everything.  For instance, almost all college and NBA basketball teams have a "fun" practice once in a while, maybe after a big win, or for the first practice of the season.  When I lived in Chicago (when the Bulls were good), they would have fancy slam dunk contests, full-court buzzer shot contests, etc.  How many times do you see anyone doing a double-pump, between the legs, reverse dunk near the key in a game?  Or a desperation shot from full court?  But any sane teacher will make one thing obvious = Not for combat


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## moromoro

in a street fight there is absolutely no use for high kicks, in a tournament situation thats another story

thanks

terry


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## Tigertron

I am reading a lot of crap in this thread.

If high kicks and flying kicks can be successfully used in the ring, against well trained, well experienced opponents who are definitely better at defending against such attacks, HOW THE HELL they can't be used on the street against Joe Budlight 6-pack?  

If you can't kick to the head and take someone down, then just speak for yourself.


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## A.R.K.

Uh huh  

And your firsthand, realworld applications would be....

Many of us have been in harm's way, seen the white elephant and been involved in realworld altercations.  This is why we know that Hollywood and the street are two different animals.  'Pretty' doesn't cut it.

But I digress...what were your realworld examples of flashy kicks working against street thugs, violent felons......

:asian:


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## Nightingale

instead of kicking to the head, I'd rather kick to the knee and make damn sure he can't follow me.

The problem with teaching people high kicks is that often times its done in a self defense format rather than a purely sport format.  You can't teach people that its acceptable to attempt to use kicks like this in the street.  You're way too easy to take down. Its a pointless risk.  

I see no harm in teaching people the kicks as "exercises to develop speed and timing" or "just because they look cool."  However, they're not good for self defense. A streetfight is a down and dirty place where you want both feet on the ground.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Tigertron _
> *I am reading a lot of crap in this thread.
> 
> If high kicks and flying kicks can be successfully used in the ring, against well trained, well experienced opponents who are definitely better at defending against such attacks, HOW THE HELL they can't be used on the street against Joe Budlight 6-pack?
> 
> If you can't kick to the head and take someone down, then just speak for yourself.  *


Well, the difference is because of the conditions.

In relatively "safe" conditions compared to a street fight, you have a lot more leniency to try moves that people aren't expecting.  In a street fight...  Another story.  Fighting in the ring is different than fighting on the street and it always will be, pure and simple.  Ring fighters can without a doubt defend themselves on the streets, but their tactical momentum will be a bit different, see what I'm getting at?  Like running.  Running for sport, and running to actually get away from something.  The same thing, but a bit different.


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## ob2c

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *To ob2c, no, I can't think of any other way to improve agility and timing.  The jumping kicks also develop power.  Look at how other athletes in different sports.  They consist of ballet, plyometrics, power and Olympic lifting, tai chi (just the exercises), and guess what...  A lot of hip movement.*



MA, while I respect your opinion, and don't argue that fancy high kicks develope timeing and agility, I still have to disagree.

I study Tai Chi Chuan fa, and it does develope both. It also teaches me to only move my hips a lot when I want something else to move a lot. But aside from that, there are a lot of drills that teach power, agility and timeing in the things that matter- defending against attacks, bridging and entries, footwork, etc. Sparing, or doing techniques at street force and speed (but with control) also develope these. Why waste time training something you say (and I agree) is too dangerous and unreliable in a real fight?

I have no problem with those who do martial arts for sport, or who think they look cool, useing these kicks. But the question of whether they are practical is a resounding NO!

By the way, I didn't say they can't work. I work out regularly with a bunch of TKD folks (notorious kickers, the rotters!). I've taken enough boots to the head to develope a grudging respect for them. But, more often by far, they go down in flames when they try it.


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## Zepp

Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:

Holy crap!  Someone actually used a jumping or spiinign kick in a street fight?!  I just put that "Saved my life" choice on the poll as a joke! :rofl:  Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?

As for the usefulness of jumping and/or spinning kicks, I agree with most of you that they are taught as a means of improving one's agility (coordination and balance included) and sense of timing.  I also liked Kope's post.  The word "art" was added to martial for a reason.

As far as using them in a tournament:  I think of them as sucker kicks.  If your timing is off, or your opponent sees it coming, you're the sucker.

In a real fight, I think you'd have to be pretty delusional to try jumping or spinning at all.

I think I need to add that this doesn't mean simply kicking to the head.  We're talking about fancy kicks here: spinning hooks, jumping front kicks, tornado kicks, etc.  Throwing a simple front kick or sidekick to the head is a great way to end a fight quickly if you've been trained to do it and your opponent isn't ready.

But in the interests of staying on topic, we're talking about the complex stuff.  Some good posts so far- keep 'em comin'.


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## Elfan

In any given situation, look at what is useful, unuseful, and useless.  Make the base of your art (ie what you practice the most) those things which you find most useful.  In some situations, a jumping-spinning-outward-cresent kick may be useful.  However, in most situations it probably wont be so allocate the time you work on them accordingly.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *MA, while I respect your opinion, and don't argue that fancy high kicks develope timeing and agility, I still have to disagree.
> 
> I study Tai Chi Chuan fa, and it does develope both. It also teaches me to only move my hips a lot when I want something else to move a lot. But aside from that, there are a lot of drills that teach power, agility and timeing in the things that matter- defending against attacks, bridging and entries, footwork, etc. Sparing, or doing techniques at street force and speed (but with control) also develope these. Why waste time training something you say (and I agree) is too dangerous and unreliable in a real fight?
> 
> I have no problem with those who do martial arts for sport, or who think they look cool, useing these kicks. But the question of whether they are practical is a resounding NO!
> 
> By the way, I didn't say they can't work. I work out regularly with a bunch of TKD folks (notorious kickers, the rotters!). I've taken enough boots to the head to develope a grudging respect for them. But, more often by far, they go down in flames when they try it. *


Why train in things that are dangerous?  Because it helps you reach a newer level.

Your strength will improve by doing bodyweight exercises, but if you want to get stronger, faster, you have to hit the weights.  Same with fighting speed.  You can get faster by doing things at full speed, but sooner or later, you'll have to have some sort of plyometric program added if you want to be a bit faster.  Boxers just don't practice at full speed to be able to punch faster and just do drills.  They have a lot of scientific processes they go through, with just the right amount of rest and training for their individual bodies.  Same thing.

Another example?  You can gain power from bag training.  But you'll have to supplement it with learning perfect technique, some strength training, speed training, and plyometric training again to achieve maximum power.

Another example?  Jumping.  NBA basketball players just don't jump as high as they can.  They have resistance and power training to supplement it.

How do they relate to speed in real life?  Doing a lot of high kicks makes you more proficient in high kicks.  Being fast with high kicks means you are even faster with low kicks.  Why the jumping around?  That's obvious.  If you find any way to improve running speed, jumping ability, and the other athletic qualities dealing with power or speed other than plyometric training, CNS training, strength and power training, etc., then I'm all ears.  Again, we're just talking about the physical aspect of speed and power.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:
> 
> Holy crap!  Someone actually used a jumping or spiinign kick in a street fight?!  I just put that "Saved my life" choice on the poll as a joke! :rofl:  Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?
> 
> As for the usefulness of jumping and/or spinning kicks, I agree with most of you that they are taught as a means of improving one's agility (coordination and balance included) and sense of timing.  I also liked Kope's post.  The word "art" was added to martial for a reason.
> 
> As far as using them in a tournament:  I think of them as sucker kicks.  If your timing is off, or your opponent sees it coming, you're the sucker.
> 
> In a real fight, I think you'd have to be pretty delusional to try jumping or spinning at all.
> 
> I think I need to add that this doesn't mean simply kicking to the head.  We're talking about fancy kicks here: spinning hooks, jumping front kicks, tornado kicks, etc.  Throwing a simple front kick or sidekick to the head is a great way to end a fight quickly if you've been trained to do it and your opponent isn't ready.
> 
> But in the interests of staying on topic, we're talking about the complex stuff.  Some good posts so far- keep 'em comin'. *


Well, if you were fighting in 0 gravity, maybe those spining kicks will help :rofl:


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## MartialArtist

In the 1950's, Olympic lifters (Olympic lifts being the clean, snatch, etc.) were able to beat Olympic sprinters in the 30-50m? dash.  The 1950's was before the time sprinters did not do any supplemental training...  They just sprinted.  Might have done a few things here and there, but nothing like today's sprinters.  Nowadays, Olympic lifters will get killed by sprinters in a race of any distance, as the sprinters now do a lot of explosive training, strength and resistance training, and a whole arsenal of things to do.


drsquat.com - Read the articles on Olympic lifting


You don't get to be a sprinter by jogging around a track.  You sprint.  But to reach a higher level, you must add to it.  You have to run at a short decline to develop your nervous system/muscle memory, box jump, depth jump, lunge jump, squat...  You get the picture.  To be more agile and faster, one must not only do the moves at full speed while mantaining flexibility and the other aspects of fitness, but you do have to jump around.

One thing sprinters do is jump, and lots of it.  Jumping has nothing to do with sprinting directly, you can't win a race by jumping around.  That's not the point.  You can say it's dangerous (in terms of your results) to jump in a race, just as it's dangerous to try to do a lot of high kicks in a fight.  But the sprinter and the fighter should know, and they are responsible for knowing it if their instructor tells them repeatedly, to not use high fancy kicks.  Most of it is logic.


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## lonekimono

i'll add my 2 cents ok if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you  it will be hard to kick this person anywhere ie: ax kick,front kick,
sidekick,WHY? because he's to close to you.
i'm not saying i don't like kicks,  i think they have there place as to when to use a kick.
i never kick to the face it's useless if it's a street fight( real world)
 the only way i would kick  to the face is when the person is on his hands and knees,   ED PARKER.:asian: 

   yours in kenpo


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## ob2c

MA, fair enough. I think we'll just have to leave it at a disagreement that isn't worth an argument. If you enjoy training it and it benifits you, which seems to be the case, then I say good on you. I prefer a more pragmatic approach. We do agree in the main area of concern. That is that they are dangerous to the kicker in a real fight. That, by the way, is what the TKD school I work out with teaches as well. They do the high stuff for tournaments and exhibitions. But they also teach a 'Freestyle TKD' which, at times, starts looking more like a predominantly hard Kenpo than TKD. Their problem is, being TKDers, they just can't resist an occasional purty high kick... .


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## ob2c

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> * if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you  it will be hard to kick this person anywhere ie: ax kick,front kick,
> sidekick,WHY? because he's to close to you.*



lonekimono, are you forgeting about kicks to his base? Knee strikes can be thought of as short kicks, or the first part of a kick. Scoop kicks to his groin. Shovel kicks. Heel hooks to his kidneys or, more likely, as a sweep. And a good kicker can deliver a full power side kick from so close in you wouldn't believe it. And in close kicks are hidden moves as well. Don't short your in close arsenal by discounting kicks. In close, AK is extremely effective with its' kicks.


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## lonekimono

well ob2c i know about the kicks you are talking about , but you have got to show me HOW you will do a kick to the midsection
while standing at a bar while other people are standing next to you? now i know you can kick to the leg but why?
this is KENPO and this is all i know kenpo is my MOTHER ART
for the last 38 years, but i still can learn from anyone.
  we are all on the same path .


                              yours in kenpo:asian:


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## moromoro

i have seen and been involved in over 50 street fights and have never seen high kicks to the head or arms...... also even when sparring against taekwondo guys and kickboxers in a mma stting they have never kicked high but this is from my own personal experience


thanks

terry


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## lonekimono

way to go TERRY  

                        yours in kenpo


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## moromoro

that was thanks (no thanks) to bouncing in my first 3 years of university


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:
> 
> Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?
> 
> *




Roundhouse kick would probably be the correct term. And I kicked my own headhight, which is 1.92 cm. He went rollong across the ground after that. I hope he ate soup for the next three months after that.


/Yari


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## moromoro

if you train correctly there should be no way he can get a head kick to land on ya


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## Elfan

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *In the 1950's, Olympic lifters (Olympic lifts being the clean, snatch, etc.) were able to beat Olympic sprinters in the 30-50m? dash.  The 1950's was before the time sprinters did not do any supplemental training...  They just sprinted.  Might have done a few things here and there, but nothing like today's sprinters.  Nowadays, Olympic lifters will get killed by sprinters in a race of any distance, as the sprinters now do a lot of explosive training, strength and resistance training, and a whole arsenal of things to do. *



Do you have any articles or vids on this? It sounds interesting.


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## ob2c

lonekimono, after 38 years in Kenpo, you should be showing me! Maybe I'm not understanding you here, but a couple of statements lead me to think that you are saying no kicks will work in close.



> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you it will be hard to kick this person anywhere.
> 
> now i know you can kick to the leg but why?*



Am I misreading what you said? AK trains not only in close kicks, but leg checks as well as stances used as weapons. It's an awesome in close art, due in large part to its' lower body attacks. Are you saying you prefer these other attacks, or that kicks will not work in close?

As for side kicking the guy at the bar who's in your face, you should be able to position yourself at 45' to him even if you can't move back. I wouldn't stand nose to nose with anyone under those circumstances. If, say, his hands come up and you know it's on, make your block a simultaneous finger strike to his eyes. This should get his attention above your kick. (This is just an example. Point is to set him up.) As the hands go up, bring the lead knee to a high chamber. Then execute a thrusting side kick , pivoting the base foot and getting plenty of hip into it. Of course, you are going to anger a lot of people as he makes a large hole in the crowd. I'm not saying this is a good thing to do in this situation. I'm just answering your question- how would I sidekick someone in a crowded bar. A thrusting side kick can be delivered to the midsection at full extension and power from extremely close. The purpose is more to move him either out of your way or into something as it's more of a powerful push. I originally learned this from a couple of TKD guys who could put you through a wall with it if they wanted. But it is in Kenpo as well.


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## MartialArtist

But yeah, although rare, I've seen quite a few kicks to the head.  From sport MA tourneys, to NHB tourneys, to street fights.  Although rare, if you see a huge opening as in the guy's arms are down, the guy's drunk or dizzy, etc.  And most of the time, the guy was leaning forward as if he was about to fall over and was snooping down, making the execution a lot easier to perform since his elevation is lower.  A solid kick to the head is enough for a KO.  That is if you solidly land it.  I don't suggest you trying to do KO kicks, that's not the point.  The point is that some people might be able to pull it off, but that some people is not the majority.  And the kick was non-telegraphed, the kick was very fast and swift, and was followed by a feint and some footwork at 30-45 degree angles or so and or hopping forward or backwards to get into the right position, distance, and using good footwork can make it so the person has a less of a chance of defending himself since his angle is bad in comparison to the opponents.

Again, they were rare, and I've only did it once or twice in a fight where the guy was prepared (as in not intoxicated, not tired, or anything) and they were due to luck.  That was way back then.  After that, I just couldn't risk it.


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## lonekimono

ok lets try this KENPO is like playing pool, 
#1:   if you are standing at a bar with alot of people around and this guy comes up to you and wants to fight, if he is looking right into your eyes and he puts his hands up to do something? you DO NOT  have to kick this man remember the last movment in STAR BLOCK? the palm block right? was is that used for?
well  we know that it can be used for a knee stirke.
so now we take your own knee and right into the old bongos, with that he will bend over and the rest you can work it out.
 but what i did was set him up for the next shot.
and i will say this again "i think kicks have there place"
 i hope you understand this:asian: 

                   yours in kenpo


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## moromoro

yeah i guess it could happen but that depends on the skill of the victim (the person yr kicking)


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## ob2c

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *.I'm not saying this is a good thing to do in this situation. I'm just answering your question- how would I sidekick someone in a crowded bar.*



lonekimono, I think we agree on whether or not you should use this in a crowded bar. I suppose if you wanted to quickly put him into a booth on top of his friends, maybe.  There are still better options though. I was just working off your example to illustrate how you *could* execute an in close side kick.


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## lonekimono

GOT IT


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## moromoro

you guys have been watching to many of JCVD movies


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## DAC..florida

I agree way to much T.V.!!!!!:asian: 


I do practice some so called fancy kick's once in a while they help me with balance, coordination, depth perception and its also a great cardio workout.

For competition such as sparring and forms i could see its use but for street fight its pretty much useless. :asian: 


:goop:


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## Jill666

I think they are good for learning timing, and deveoping power. If you can correctly deliver a high kick to a moving target, then it should be much easier to deliver a low, penetrating kick to disable the other guy.


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## lonekimono

We give them eyes, but they do not see.


> time is the best teacher.


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## lost_tortoise

I am not one for fancy kicks...and I would definitely NOT use any on the streets in a real conflict.  However, in the ring/octagon, I have seen them pay off.  When I was managing some NHB fighters a while back, one of them landed a spinning sidekick, SOLIDLY, on his opponent.  This was against the local superstar and in his first pro match!  So yeah, they can work, but don't risk it in the street.


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## lonekimono

i like what you had to say  it's people like you that DON'T make my head hurt:shrug:


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## moromoro

> When I was managing some NHB fighters a while back, one of them landed a spinning sidekick, SOLIDLY, on his opponent.



who was your fighter

what division? and which tournament was this?


----------



## lost_tortoise

His name is Donald Comely.  I believe it was a Pankration style bout.  It was in Indiana.   You might be able to track his name down on an old Dangerzone archive.  He fought there in 2000, I believe.


----------



## Shinzu

i dont mind doing them, and actually enjoy learning them but as far as real combat goes i would not perform them.  usually a fight will last 30 seconds or so.  you need to perform the moves that work fast and the best for you.  who has time for a jump 360 degree back spinning double hook kick????


----------



## moromoro

hi geoff

how did donald go in the tournament?

do you still train mma fighters??

thanks

terry


----------



## lost_tortoise

Terry,

If you're asking how Donald did in the tournament, he lost the fight in which he threw that kick, eliminating him.  As I mentioned, it was his first pro fight and he was sort of thrust into going pro that night.  
If you were asking how he got in the tournament, the MMA and NHB scene is easy to break into and you can fight on the circuit relatively unknown for years, even if you are winning.
This is probably not the thread to discuss this on, however, so PM or email me if you have anymore questions.

P.S.  I haven't even trained in over two years, let alone training or managing any fighters.  The management thing was short-lived anyhow.  It took up a lot of my time....time better spent with my family.


geoffrey


----------



## moromoro

thanks geoff

yes we have those mma circuits here in australia, 

what, no training in two years you must be itching to come back to training.....

but family does come first


thanks man

terry


----------



## lost_tortoise

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *thanks geoff
> 
> yes we have those mma circuits here in australia,
> 
> what, no training in two years you must be itching to come back to training.....
> 
> but family does come first
> 
> 
> thanks man
> 
> terry *




Itching isn't the word.  I am downright crawling out of my skin to get back to training.  Unfortunately, I have burned out my son and wife on the whole martial arts thing, so they won't train with me.:wah: 

I think I may have tracked down a local guy that can play once a week, but we haven't been able to get our schedules to jive yet.

geoffrey


----------



## Autocrat

The flash kicks are fantastic for teaching younger students the reasons for the base kicks...... side step and hard block two or three times and the stop the flash in the pan and gor for the solidly grounded instead!

Good for excercise, yetthe amount of people I've flattened in pubs or clubs that have tried a Van Dam on me...!  You see them atleast 1 whole second before impact, plenty of time!
(though when they do land one on you - ouch!  LOADS OF PAIN!)


----------



## Autocrat

Oops - forgot..... we found that if you pactice your kicks high, you get better excercise and thus improve your lower kicks, (anything above the waist is flashy to me! LOL)... I train so my Kin Geri is to head height, Keage and kekomi (yoko and mea) are both to the chest.... when sparring or fighting, I go for the hips and knees!  Lots more power and flow since I started training for the higher kicks!  As for all the jumping stuff... I found they are brilliant for one thing... sore ankles! LOL

Still, good to practice, naff for use!


----------



## Simon Curran

My opinion:

Not my style, though I am sure that they have a use for some.


----------



## MichiganTKD

No offense, but if you ask Kenpo people if high, jumping, or spinning kicks work outside, what do you think the answer will be?
They don't really practice them, and it is not a major part of their style. If you practice them on a consistant basis, you will eventually understand how to do them well, how you can apply them, and their limitations.
I am not saying high kicks always are the way to go, but they can and do work IF you practice them correctly.
Personally, I would rather do a middle or high kick than a knee kick any day. Reason being the torso and head contain numerous vital spots that can cause serious injury or death. You just have to when and how to attack them. The knee contains no vital spots, other than having to attack it at the right angle. It can be used in a checking technique (a la Koryo). But as far as doing damage, I'll stick with middle and high kicks.
Anyway, if I'm close enough to do a knee kick, I'm close enough to use an elbow strike or some other hand technique.


----------



## MJS

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> No offense, but if you ask Kenpo people if high, jumping, or spinning kicks work outside, what do you think the answer will be?
> They don't really practice them, and it is not a major part of their style. If you practice them on a consistant basis, you will eventually understand how to do them well, how you can apply them, and their limitations.
> I am not saying high kicks always are the way to go, but they can and do work IF you practice them correctly.
> Personally, I would rather do a middle or high kick than a knee kick any day. Reason being the torso and head contain numerous vital spots that can cause serious injury or death. You just have to when and how to attack them. The knee contains no vital spots, other than having to attack it at the right angle. It can be used in a checking technique (a la Koryo). But as far as doing damage, I'll stick with middle and high kicks.
> Anyway, if I'm close enough to do a knee kick, I'm close enough to use an elbow strike or some other hand technique.



First off, being a Kenpo guy, no offense taken!  Aside from that...good post!  As I've said before, all kicks, strikes, etc. have their time and place.  It all comes down to knowing when that time and place is.  

Mike


----------



## Sarah

I havent read this whole thread, but here are my thoughts.

On occasion we train fancy, jumping, spinning, flying kicks etc....we dont really train them in a real life sense, just for fun really. As well as agility etc, I find it works wonders on my confidence. Im only a beginner and when we play around with fancy kicks, you will often see most people in the class start off slow and cautious, small jumps, not kicking to hard, afraid of falling over etc....then after a while, we're jumping, twisting, flying, kicking hard, with big dumb smiles on our faces...lol....its a lot of fun, and can be quite a work out too.


----------



## Sin

Only when i am showing off to my little brother and sister or friends and family I will do "fancy" techniques, but in a real fight.....not my cup o' tea


----------



## Sin

Showing off = Playing around

I never show off saying, "Oh I'am the best there ever was"  Because there are people that can beat me and I respect those that can as well as the ones that can not.  Respect and honor is what I am all about, I only show off/play around when its with little kids showing them a spinning jump kick or something.  Or with my friends with a Twi-Te or something like that.  When they ask me what i have been learning in MA class I show them something thats a little flashy and they enjoy it.  now if i broke down the way I do m stances and told them about it.  I don't think they will ejoy it very much.


----------



## kenpo_guy

Not my style, but I know 3 guys who they work well for, but only 1 really uses them a lot. I never cared for fancy kicks, most of the time maybe you can get 1 off, but after that they are easy to read. High kicks have never been my style either, I don't trust them. The way I see it, is there is too much distance for the foot to travel from the ground to the head, when my fists are much closer. My kicks stay from the mid section down, I mostly use kicks to keep people at bay.


----------



## Simon Curran

kenpo_guy said:
			
		

> Not my style, but I know 3 guys who they work well for, but only 1 really uses them a lot. I never cared for fancy kicks, most of the time maybe you can get 1 off, but after that they are easy to read. High kicks have never been my style either, I don't trust them. The way I see it, is there is too much distance for the foot to travel from the ground to the head, when my fists are much closer. My kicks stay from the mid section down, I mostly use kicks to keep people at bay.


I am in agreement with you there, I read a story about a person from a Korean art (not knocking Korean arts by the way) who challenged Mister Parker to kick him in the head, whereby he swept his feet out from under him and put his foot on his face...
My take on this is why try to get my foot up to someones head, when his groin is closer, and will in turn bring his head down to my foot...


----------



## MichiganTKD

My opinion of the higher level Korean-style kicks is this: aside from the fact that, under the right conditions, they do have uses and do work, we practice these kicks for another reason. One of the hallmarks of Tae Kwon Do and Korean arts is to constantly test yourself and see what the body is capable of. If all you focus on is low or mid level kicks because you perceive high kicks as being useless, you will never see what you are capable of. Tae Kwon Do is more than just being concerned with self defense. We practice jumping, flying, spinning, jump-spinning, and other kicks to to see if we can do them, regardless of whether or not we will ever be able to use them in a self defense situation. 
This is one reason why I consider RBSD so limiting. It only concerns itself with one narrow aspect of martial arts training, instead of being a total package. The human body and mind are beautiful things, and traditional martial arts gives us a chance to see exactly what this wonderful machine is capable of. Kind of like bying a car strictly to get you from point A to point B. You get this stripped down model that is strictly utilitarian that is no fun to own.
If you only focus on low and middle kicks, or only kicking to the knee for self defense, you are severely limiting yourself.


----------



## TigerWoman

I think it's funny calling high kicks "fancy".  In Taekwondo, anything to the chest and up is normal and that includes spinning and jumping.  It's the flying triple kick over three people, the rebound breaks like a double front rebound then jump spin heel, the throw up three boards and hit/break them all one at a time or all at once, those are the fancy kicks to us.  Taekwondo, in my opinion raises the bar to what the body can do..like Mich.TKD said.  We normally kick over the head, those are not "fancy" except to people who don't practice them and don't have the capability. 

BTW I didn't vote, 'cause none of those applied.  TW


----------



## AC_Pilot

So forgive me if I'm repeating something.. these high, jumping, spinning kicks kicks were developed in early Northern China so that warriors on foot could counter Mongol horsemen. I don't see too many of those around today so I don't train in these kicks. In fact excepting the explosive shuffling flat footwork for forward moving attack kicks (low line) and a few scissor kicks, my off-foot is generally planted when I kick, and they do not go higher than the ribs or heart area (Savate) Usually *much* lower, like the knee or groin (Pananjakman, Wing Chun) I have only sparred with one guy who I could not trap _every time_ (using Praying Mantis concepts, Aikido can work here also) He managed to get two good head kicks in..out of many tried that I trapped. He was blazingly fast and very powerful. And I always put these kickers on the ground when they tried the high kicks, they leave you *wide open* and vulnerable. Won't work on the street against _most_ seasoned attackers.


----------



## AC_Pilot

> The knee contains no vital spots, other than having to attack it at the right angle.


MJS, dude.. if I oblique kick http://www.bruceleecentral.com/jeetkunedomasterclass1.htm  someone in the knee, head on you will most likely hear first a "*crack*" or _Crunch_" followed by _screaming_ and them going down on the spot. I target the knee if possible, not the shin. I've had my knee taken out if a sparring ring and it was the end of any chance to continue fighting. I was not able to run again for a year and it could have been worse. I needed a cane for a month. Knees are a top target for JKD folks (and other pure arts) because it's a serious _destruction _and disabler. In addition if you want to escape this will be your chance.. they won't chase you with a seriously damaged knee, I could barely stand, my leg felt like *rubber*!


----------



## Miles

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> So forgive me if I'm repeating something.. these high, jumping, spinning kicks kicks were developed in early Northern China so that warriors on foot could counter Mongol horsemen. I don't see too many of those around today so I don't train in these kicks..


Perhaps originally, but I think many of the fancy kicks practiced today in many TKD dojang are of relatively recent origin.  Also, the Mike Chats of the world are always looking to improve on what they can do-pretty inspiring stuff.  If you are simply training for self-defense, why not just carry a gun?



			
				AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> And I always put these kickers on the ground when they tried the high kicks, they leave you *wide open* and vulnerable. Won't work on the street against _most_ seasoned attackers.


Most fully-committed attacks *or defenses*, will mean that you are wide open and vulnerable.  For example, in football, if the defense is blitzing the quarterback, it generally means they either sack him or suffer a completed pass (Go Pats!).  Whether you are kicking someone in the head or the groin means your own groin is open.

Miles


----------



## AC_Pilot

OK, a few points: Not every self defense situation allows for lethal force! In fact most do not. I don't want to end up in prison with the bad guys, thank you.. hence I train in real world combative arts, including restraint and energy control-channeling arts, like Dumog for instance. I do carry at least one handgun, and sometimes two or three, (backups) depending. But that's no indication that I will use them, the situation is what warrants the measured response. Have I used less lethal techniques when armed? yes, several times.

The way we JKD folks get around the vulnerability aspect you mention? Well, there are numerous ways to do this but one way that works nicely in many encounters is the _high-low-high_ of Praying Mantis (and a few other arts have this concept, like Panantukman) this confuses the attacker as to what's next and overwhelms them, theoretically. it gets them thinking more about defense and _why the heck did I get into this? _mentality. When you seek to enter trapping range ...

*(where we want to fight because no other arts train to fight there, here's more info: **http://www.icmaua.com/Journal2005.htm** ) *
*



			Excerpt:
		
Click to expand...

*


> *Jeet Kune Do teaches you to be comfortable in all ranges. One learns to accommodate to the situation. Lee says Be like water. It is insubstantial. It assumes the shape of the bowl. Thus the JKD man fights and adapts to Long weapons range, Kicking, Punching, Knee-Elbow-Trapping, Grappling & Groundwork ranges. He also is the master of entry & Exit into & from all ranges*


 


and we then get a "destruction" (could be a good eye jab, gunting muscle and/or nerve destruction, etc..) then with that reaction and disabling shot we can enter trapping range, maybe straight blast them backwards with the flurry of vertical fists, and then is when we deliver something like an oblique kick as a finishing shot. You don't start out with it, it's part of a progressive attack (either direct or indirect)


----------



## MJS

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> MJS, dude.. if I oblique kick http://www.bruceleecentral.com/jeetkunedomasterclass1.htm  someone in the knee, head on you will most likely hear first a "*crack*" or _Crunch_" followed by _screaming_ and them going down on the spot. I target the knee if possible, not the shin. I've had my knee taken out if a sparring ring and it was the end of any chance to continue fighting. I was not able to run again for a year and it could have been worse. I needed a cane for a month. Knees are a top target for JKD folks (and other pure arts) because it's a serious _destruction _and disabler. In addition if you want to escape this will be your chance.. they won't chase you with a seriously damaged knee, I could barely stand, my leg felt like *rubber*!



AC-  I think you misunderstood a post.  The quote that you have here was not from me, but from MichTKD.  Check out post #62.

As for the low kicks... you and I are thinking the same here.  Personally speaking, I'm more of a low line kicker.  I have a few guys that I workout with who are into JKD.  I definately can see the value of the lower kicks.

Mike


----------



## AC_Pilot

Sorry if I quoted you wrongly, bro.. Fred is quoting Sam, who is quoting Amy in this thread! :idunno:  peace, Steve :asian:


----------



## MJS

Not a problem my friend. :asian:  :ultracool 

Mike


----------



## Zepp

It's good to see this thread revived again.  I just want to clarify one thing however.  When I used the term "fancy kicks" in the initial post of this thread, I didn't mean high kicks.  I intended this thread to be about kicks that involved jumping, spinning, or some combination of the two.    Just in case anyone was wondering.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Zepp said:


> It's good to see this thread revived again.  I just want to clarify one thing however.  When I used the term "fancy kicks" in the initial post of this thread, I didn't mean high kicks.  I intended this thread to be about kicks that involved jumping, spinning, or some combination of the two.    Just in case anyone was wondering.



That's the problem with polls of this sort. To my mind, there's nothing particularly fancy about a spinning back kick.


----------



## wingchun100

Maybe they are useful, but I personally don't like them. I need to keep myself rooted to the ground with both feet so I can draw more power up from the ground. After all, I'm only 5'7". I need all the assistance I can get since I personally don't have much mass to me!


----------



## donald1

_Are they a completely impractical waste of time? *it depends how and what situation you use them*

Are they usable in a confrontation outside the dojo or ring? *there probably a lot that will not help(but if so preferably keep it simple)*

Would you use them in a tournament? *there probably many that can used properly, moves that come from multiple directions can be tricky and hard to block (even if you know what there going to do)*

Is there some value to practicing them? *i could imagine it helps a lot with flexibility and stamina*
Have you tried them, Sam I Am?_ *generally i do goju ryu which doesn't seem to have those kicks, but i have been privileged to be able to do rung fu, Kata like one of the yin ching forms(i think that how it is spelled) and white ape steals peach (forgot Chinese name for it)*


----------



## seasoned

You will always use most, what you practice most. 

What would make any kick impractical is the surface you are kicking on. In the dojo under ideal conditions or a school gymnasium, with a Gi on and bare feet, you can get away with just about any kick. The Gi allows great flexibility while the bare feet give you the best gripping advantage. It all depends on your motivation for training in the first place.

Now, your in the street on gravel, in a bar with limited room for movement with street clothing suited more for a night out on the town and you have a whole new scenario to contend with. To be able to switch from what you practice most to a self defense situation which happens sometimes out of no where, adds a whole new dimension to what are "fancy kicks".


----------



## drop bear

seasoned said:


> You will always use most, what you practice most.
> 
> What would make any kick impractical is the surface you are kicking on. In the dojo under ideal conditions or a school gymnasium, with a Gi on and bare feet, you can get away with just about any kick. The Gi allows great flexibility while the bare feet give you the best gripping advantage. It all depends on your motivation for training in the first place.
> 
> Now, your in the street on gravel, in a bar with limited room for movement with street clothing suited more for a night out on the town and you have a hole new scenario to contend with. To be able to switch from what you practice most to a self defense situation which happens sometimes out of no where, adds a whole new dimension to what are "fancy kicks".





If I am fighting on a slip and slide then only ground work would be aplicable because you would not be upright for more than about a second.

So it is not worth training kicks at all.


----------



## donald1

seasoned said:


> You will always use most, what you practice most.
> 
> What would make any kick impractical is the surface you are kicking on. In the dojo under ideal conditions or a school gymnasium, with a Gi on and bare feet, you can get away with just about any kick. The Gi allows great flexibility while the bare feet give you the best gripping advantage. It all depends on your motivation for training in the first place.
> 
> Now, your in the street on gravel, in a bar with limited room for movement with street clothing suited more for a night out on the town and you have a hole new scenario to contend with. To be able to switch from what you practice most to a self defense situation which happens sometimes out of no where, adds a whole new dimension to what are "fancy kicks".



and other scenarios too like practicing from a slanted angle like if you outside on a hill


----------



## wimwag

I have a solution.  Always wear baggy sweatpants.

Sent from my Nokia Lumia using Tapatalk and glitchy Windows 8


----------



## seasoned

drop bear said:


> If I am fighting on a slip and slide then only ground work would be aplicable because you would not be upright for more than about a second.
> 
> So it is not worth training kicks at all.



Kicks are always worth training. Kicks can be used standing sitting and while on the ground. Kicks are one of many tools, but knowing how and when to utilize them takes skill.


----------



## seasoned

wimwag said:


> I have a solution.  Always wear baggy sweatpants.
> 
> Sent from my Nokia Lumia using Tapatalk and glitchy Windows 8


I have a solution, wear anything you want to and only kick to their knee hight.


----------



## Dinkydoo

I personally don't think I'm good enough to use "fancy" kicks whilst in a self defence scenario but I saw this clip yesterday and thought of this thread. 

A hurricane kick (arguably, a very fancy kick) being used to great effect against a trained fighter: 

https://vine.co/v/MZdv3gmMvtb


----------



## drop bear

wimwag said:


> I have a solution.  Always wear baggy sweatpants.
> 
> Sent from my Nokia Lumia using Tapatalk and glitchy Windows 8


----------



## drop bear

seasoned said:


> I have a solution, wear anything you want to and only kick to their knee hight.



A head kick can finish a guy right off the bat. Which is a nice trick to have.

One of the issues people have in a fight is you are generally not laying waste to people. It takes time to put them out of commission.

You know that theory with a group fight where you put down the leader and then the next guy and so on. It is next to impossible to actually do.

If you can hand out kos like candy then your self defence problems are pretty much solved.

I have only seen one knee kick work in a fight and cannot find a YouTube example of one working.

And you find flying kicks working on YouTube.

But a fancy kick is a specialialised skill.

The myth.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hu1MtT_S3bc

The reality.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eqzwzdVMPvA


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> One of the issues people have in a fight is you are generally not laying waste to people. It takes time to put them out of commission.



I don't disagree with anything else you said, but this I do strongly disagree with. It's been my experience that fights (not sparring, or matches or any other competitive session) are generally over with in a matter of seconds.


----------



## seasoned

drop bear said:


> A head kick can finish a guy right off the bat. Which is a nice trick to have.
> 
> One of the issues people have in a fight is you are generally not laying waste to people. It takes time to put them out of commission.
> 
> You know that theory with a group fight where you put down the leader and then the next guy and so on. It is next to impossible to actually do.
> 
> If you can hand out kos like candy then your self defence problems are pretty much solved.
> 
> I have only seen one knee kick work in a fight and cannot find a YouTube example of one working.
> 
> And you find flying kicks working on YouTube.
> 
> But a fancy kick is a specialialised skill.
> 
> The myth.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hu1MtT_S3bc
> 
> The reality.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eqzwzdVMPvA



drop bear, you make some good points. In my younger days my meal ticket kick was a high round house to the head. Coming from a GoJu background where all kicks are low, we did attend many tournaments which made low kicks off limits. 
I agree with you that a kick to the head can, if done quickly and with power, with a fast draw back is hard to block. But, from my vantage point over the past years, I have chosen to follow my roots and keep all kicks from belt level down and hand strikes from the waist up.  
Coming from both sides of the fence what serves me best at my point in life is to keep it simple and direct just as my kata teach. Good talking with you.....


----------



## wimwag

seasoned said:


> I have a solution, wear anything you want to and only kick to their knee hight.



If I kick to my knee height, most people catch it in the crotch lol  When encountering someone my height I suggest running.  Tall people are usually slow.


----------



## wimwag

I don't know if by "fancy" kicks the OP was referring to hurricane kicks, a tornado kick, axe kick or even just your average flying back kick...but in my experience, (I used to compete as a teen with my Dojang and another less reputable form behind my school after hours...) what works best for me is multiple roundhouses or a combination roundhouse jab with a feint thrown in and switching attack zones (i.e. hitting low, low, low, then feinting low and following through with the roundhouse to the head.)  I didn't put everything I had into it, just gave it enough to sting a bit which unbalanced them and lowered their confidence. 

I've been on the receiving end as well and fell victim to the same tactic a few times before I caught on.  Those low power kicks to the head still unbalanced me and after a few more to the head I felt nauseous and dizzy and gave up.

I voted that training is good for timing and agility, but I also feel it helps with placement since you need to learn to control your body when off the ground and that overall it helps you make contact with any of your strikes.  It's also a great bluff, as you could fake a flying kick and sweep while your attacker is backpedaling.  Overall, though, I wouldn't really use it myself because of the risk of being grounded.  IMO a fall is worse than being knocked down or kicked in the jaw.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't disagree with anything else you said, but this I do strongly disagree with. It's been my experience that fights (not sparring, or matches or any other competitive session) are generally over with in a matter of seconds.



With one guy incapacitated?

I think it is a martial arts myth that you punch a guy and they collapse. And regardless it is a bad platform to work on.

I don't go into any fight. Sport or street without preparing it to go the distance.


----------



## drop bear

A bit of fancy kicking from the headhunter.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Og54949eCO0


----------



## donnaTKD

i rarely go above waist height when kicking - it's got no place in a real fight you need feet on the floor to be able to react properly and you can't defend against an opponent properly if you've got your feet in the clouds.

i've found through experience that most people will cover up pretty good which makes an AB kick far more effective, failing that a good knee into the same region will give the same results and allow your feet to make contact with the floor faster therefore giving you the advantage.

in terms of agility and flexi then yup it's good but outside of training, belt grading, point scoring fights it has no place in the real world.  

take mma for instance how many high kicks do you see ????? not many is there and that's cos in the real world they don't work well enough to be used that often.  mma is more biased towards muay thai with elements from other ma's thrown in where they're proven to be of benefit to the fighters.

just my take on things.......

donna


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> A bit of fancy kicking from the headhunter.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Og54949eCO0



I saw the fight where Manly Spandex, I mean Stanley Nandex, first got the name 'Headhunter' on Foxtel, after that he seemed to have a bit of tunnel vision in looking for that head kick in subsequent fights.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tigertron said:


> What's a spinning side kick?



The wrong way to do a back kick.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> One of the issues people have in a fight is you are generally not laying waste to people. It takes time to put them out of commission.



Not if you know what you are doing.



drop bear said:


> You know that theory with a group fight where you put down the leader and then the next guy and so on. It is next to impossible to actually do.



Its been done.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> Not if you know what you are doing.
> 
> 
> 
> Its been done.




Have you ever seen two gypsies go at it. They just take punishment forever. And that is what they do. So the know what you are doing part is covered.

I have a pretty hard head I have defiantly been beaten by good strikers. But never been completely incapacitated. And certanly not in the three or four seconds it woul take to group mob someone.

And I am not superman.

Honestly there have been very few people who can reliably knock people out of commission.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> I saw the fight where Manly Spandex, I mean Stanley Nandex, first got the name 'Headhunter' on Foxtel, after that he seemed to have a bit of tunnel vision in looking for that head kick in subsequent fights.



Yeah it is a weapon but you have to use it at the right time. The advantage is that very few people are going to counter that kick regardless because to do so requires the big risk of eating it.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> Honestly there have been very few people who can reliably knock people out of commission.



My instructor was attacked by two big guys once and one punch and one kick was all he needed to dispatch them both.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> My instructor was attacked by two big guys once and one punch and one kick was all he needed to dispatch them both.



Why did he miss with the first punch or something?


----------



## ST1Doppelganger

Jumping & Spinning kicks are great tools to build up agility, power & endurance and can fill in a missing gap of distance (jump kicks) or allow you to recover from a bad situation (spinning,hook and rear kicks). 

Personally I prefer the basic kicks and also staying rooted but I also understand the concept of missing a circular strike and using a spinning back kick or strike as a type of recovery to get back to your fighting position. 

I can also see how Rear kicks and spinning back kicks can be useful if you were fighting one opponent then had another attack you from behind. 

Jump kicks could be used for jumping over one down opponent to get to the other as well but then again I'm just trying find an use for  a fancy kick and would prefer to stay rooted and use my basic kicks. 


Strive To Be A Martial Artist & Not A Jock Artist.


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## Towel Snapper

some of them are high risk high reward e.g. the spinning side kick or spinning heel kick - these are perhaps worth learning but that is debatable, in their favor when practiced well enough they can be quite fast and sneakily set up and can end a fight in one hit

some of them are high risk and low/medium reward e.g. jumping crescent kick - these definitely, are a big waste of time

this is my opinion, but I think its a sound one.


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## PhotonGuy

Fancy jumping spinning kicks are for Hollywood. They are also good for training in that they develop agility and coordination but I wouldn't use them in a fight.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Fancy jumping spinning kicks are for Hollywood. They are also good for training in that they develop agility and coordination but I wouldn't use them in a fight.



Those who can, do. Those who can't, insist it's not possible. 




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## drop bear

You can still find more fight ending fancy kicks than knee kicks.

They have their use.

Pretty much a person will run away or get smashed with the thing. So they are very hard to counter.


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## Cho, Yeonsoo

Kope said:


> They develop balance, strength, flexibility, agility, timing ... and they look damn good when done right.
> 
> We're martial ARTISTS after all . . . and if they are part of the heritage of your art, then you should be able to do them as well as you can.
> 
> My style has a few, and they are fun . . . but i'd never use a jumping one in a real fight. Some of the spinning ones, however, are a good way to gain a serious surprise factor. Front kick followed by a spinning side kick, for example, has gotten me more than few sparring matches.
> 
> If you're fast and accurate, they're a great surprise weapon. If you're off, you're going down.
> 
> So basically, I'd use them in the ring, but not in the street. I train them because they are part of the history of my style.


yes, since I train in TKD it's all a part of my art, however, spin kicks are amazing, when used right, they can be devastating, I voted "saved my life with one" because it did, I was getting smashed, until I saw an opening and landed a reverse side kick into his chest. Boom. end fight


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