# Kenpo for Lefties?



## The Master (Jul 17, 2007)

As written, almost all if not all of the techniques I have seen demonstrated are done with a focus on right handedness.

Your lead is a right lead, your primary attack/counter is from the right.

I have even been informed by a well known 5th that Kenpo is not done from the left. The standard "Mr. Parker didn't say that so it isn't done" excuse.

It would seem to me that it is sensible to train techniques from both sides, in the event that your primary is limited or disabled.

So, what options are there for lefties in kenpo?


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## Flying Crane (Jul 17, 2007)

Not all kenpoists subscribe to this.  Some of us practice on both sides...

in some circles, that's considered heresy


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 17, 2007)

Why wouldn't you work both sides?


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## Brian Jones (Jul 17, 2007)

I was alwys aware of working the left, probably because my instructor was left handed.  And I owudl disagree that kenpo doesn't work the left side.  That's one of the reasons why we do our forms.

Brian Jones


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## Jdokan (Jul 17, 2007)

Being an East Coast Kenpoist, I never heard that statement.  In fact we were tested on being able to do all our techniques equally well on both sides....At higher BB work outs we even did some of our forms lefty....THAT was a trip.....


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## Blindside (Jul 17, 2007)

Actually I thought Parker did suggest that you do techniques on both sides, at least that is why Mr. Conatser does with his instruction.  

Honestly, symmetry is over-rated in combat arts and sports.

There is a saying "there are no left-handed samurai," the same was true for knights, or anyone who ever had to fight in formation.  Musashi's system was not symmetric for all that he fought with two weapons.  

In boxing, there is a bias toward left-handed fighters, they win a higher percentage of their matches, presumably because their opponents are used to seeing it.  Yet only one champion level fighter (Hagler) fought out of either lead, if switch-hitting was such an advantage you would think it would show up more.  High level boxers (and by extension martial artists) don't try to go southpaw to beat a southpaw, that would be stupid, they come up with defenses from their position of strength.

Lamont


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## Flying Crane (Jul 17, 2007)

These are really not appropriate comparisons, and I'll explain why I think so.




Blindside said:


> There is a saying "there are no left-handed samurai," the same was true for knights, or anyone who ever had to fight in formation.


 
Fighing in formation is not the same thing as self defense on the street.  In formation, you have to be wary of they guys next to you in formation, so you do not injure your companions.  This mandates a certain level of uniformity in how techs are done, including what side you are fighting on.

Self defense on the street does not have these considerations. You could be attacked from any direction, and put into a position where you cannot fight with your favored side.  You need to be able to respond no matter what position you are in, even if that means fighting with your "weak" side.



> In boxing, there is a bias toward left-handed fighters, they win a higher percentage of their matches, presumably because their opponents are used to seeing it. Yet only one champion level fighter (Hagler) fought out of either lead, if switch-hitting was such an advantage you would think it would show up more. High level boxers (and by extension martial artists) don't try to go southpaw to beat a southpaw, that would be stupid, they come up with defenses from their position of strength.
> 
> Lamont


 
Again, this in an inappropriate comparison because boxing is a form of formal duelling.  The participants have the luxury of deciding which is their favored side, and that is how they fight. 

When you are attacked on the street, you often do not have that luxury to choose.  So you need to respond from whatever position you are forced into.

All things being equal, if you have the chance to position yourself to fight on your favored side, then do so.  But you cannot count on that opportunity, so it's time well spent to work your defenses on both sides.


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## Blindside (Jul 17, 2007)

> Fighing in formation is not the same thing as self defense on the street. In formation, you have to be wary of they guys next to you in formation, so you do not injure your companions. This mandates a certain level of uniformity in how techs are done, including what side you are fighting on.


 
I agree that the use of the formation is inappropriate.

That said, much of the Japanese swordwork is not battlefield sword work, it is individual combat, and designed for multiple on one scenarios.  This parallel is still sound.  

I fight with either side forward, but its isn't symmetric, I do things differently when I'm in a left lead than a right lead.  The defenses are there, the defenses are sound, but they aren't symmetric to what I do on the opposite side.  And during my defense I will find my way back to my strong side, you seek your comfort zone, and your defenses will take you there.  Again, symmetry is over-rated.  I find it curious that I cannot use a "sports" analogy because it isn't real enough.  I also a can't use an actual combat scenario because it is too different from the current "real" self-defense.  

And lets face it, most of us have limited time to train, I'm not going to spend my in pursuit of a goal that has relatively little value.    

Lamont


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## Flying Crane (Jul 17, 2007)

Blindside said:


> That said, much of the Japanese swordwork is not battlefield sword work, it is individual combat, and designed for multiple on one scenarios. This parallel is still sound.


 
I don't know enough about Japanese swordsmanship to comment further on this.

However, I do practice Chinese swordsmanship, and I practice somewhat with my left hand.  I don't practice everything with my left, I only do my forms with my right, but I work the basics with my left as well.  This helps ensure a balanced muscular development on both sides of the body, which prevents health issues like scoliosis, which can develop if you are lopsided in your training.  I also simply like the fact that my left hand isn't completely useless with the weapon, tho I certainly recognize it will never be the equal of my right.  But that recognition doesn't stop me from training the left.



> Again, symmetry is over-rated.


 
I believe symmetry isn't over-rated.  Rather, perfect ambidexterity is probably not possible.  That doesn't mean you cannot develop solid skills with your off-hand.  I've been practicing this way for my entire career in the martial arts, almost 23 years.  I find little difference from one side to the other.



> I find it curious that I cannot use a "sports" analogy because it isn't real enough. I also a can't use an actual combat scenario because it is too different from the current "real" self-defense.


 
It's not that a sports analogy isnt real enough.  Rather, they are actually different, and different considerations do apply.  In a sports situation, you get to choose how you wish to fight.  In a random street attack, where someone swings at your head and wants your wallet, you may be taken by surprise and not have that luxury.  It is more random, and you should prepare for that.



> And lets face it, most of us have limited time to train, I'm not going to spend my in pursuit of a goal that has relatively little value.
> 
> Lamont


 
well, your decision that is has little value is your own judgement call.  In my experience, it has tremendous value.  Do what works for ya.


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## LawDog (Jul 17, 2007)

I believe in doing all of the presets on both sides. I gave my reasons for this on another thread not to long ago.
One of the old concepts for the cross step with a lock out is,
*it trains you to counter attack your opponent after his right hand "locks out". The lock out will give you enough time to get in and to do your thing. If you do it on boths sides then you will not have a weak and strong side.
:asian:


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## bushidomartialarts (Jul 17, 2007)

On the one hand, training left handed so as to be able to defend from the left is redundant.  There are other techniques that cover that side.

On the other hand, training left handed to practice ambidexterity for its own sake, or simply as a personal challenge, has a lot of value.

On the third hand (don't ask whose, or how I got it), by the time you're really ready to start training the other side, it's probably time to get a little more spontaneous anyway.  You'd be better served spending your energy doing something other than practicing techniques.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jul 17, 2007)

Im left handed and do everything Im taught from my right and left side. 

B


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## Flying Crane (Jul 17, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> On the one hand, training left handed so as to be able to defend from the left is redundant. There are other techniques that cover that side.


 
I don't see it that way, but I'm ok with agreeing to disagree.



> On the other hand, training left handed to practice ambidexterity for its own sake, or simply as a personal challenge, has a lot of value.


 
true...



> On the third hand (don't ask whose, or how I got it), by the time you're really ready to start training the other side, it's probably time to get a little more spontaneous anyway. You'd be better served spending your energy doing something other than practicing techniques.


 
Yes, and no.  Spend time doing something other than practicing techs, but the techs are the base material and can always use practicing.  Again, I can agree to disagree.  No problems with that, just a difference of opinion and perspective.


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## Blindside (Jul 17, 2007)

> It's not that a sports analogy isnt real enough. Rather, they are actually different, and different considerations do apply. In a sports situation, you get to choose how you wish to fight. In a random street attack, where someone swings at your head and wants your wallet, you may be taken by surprise and not have that luxury. It is more random, and you should prepare for that.


 
That isn't an argument for symmetry, if you are truly surprised the best you can hope for is a flinch response, if you have time to pull a "technique" then it doesn't matter if you are righty, lefty, or neutral, as long as you have a defense.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 17, 2007)

Blindside said:


> That isn't an argument for symmetry, if you are truly surprised the best you can hope for is a flinch response, if you have time to pull a "technique" then it doesn't matter if you are righty, lefty, or neutral, as long as you have a defense.


 
well yes, you need to simply survive the intial onslaught.  If you do, then your training comes into the picture, and whether or not you happen to be holding your infant in your arms and are unable to engage on your favorite side.  That is when you need to have solid skills on your "off" side because you may be forced to fight in an awkward way.

And I never believed a proper tech would be utilized.  But having trained them on both sides, you have developed the physical skills and the capability to respond creatively, regardless.


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## Ray (Jul 17, 2007)

As a left handed person: Kenpo works as well for lefties as it does righties.  If you practice a technique on one side only, regardless of your handness, after a while the other side feels clumsy.


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## DavidCC (Jul 17, 2007)

I would rather train to defend against both left and right attacks with my "dominant side".  I try not to even think of it as "dominant side"...
Both hands have important roles to play.


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## Shotochem (Jul 19, 2007)

Ray said:


> As a left handed person: Kenpo works as well for lefties as it does righties. If you practice a technique on one side only, regardless of your handness, after a while the other side feels clumsy.


 
I agree, from a pure dexterity standpoint it is wise to train both sides.  

If you are not in position to properly defend with your dominant side you will need to use your other.  I defend with whichever appendage is closest to the attack, it is the quickest most efficient way for me.

-Marc-


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## Shotochem (Jul 19, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> I would rather train to defend against both left and right attacks with my "dominant side". I try not to even think of it as "dominant side"...
> Both hands have important roles to play.


 
We don't always get what we prefer.  

Even though statistically 90% ish of the general population is right handed, the angle of the attack and your position in relation to it may leave you no other option than your other side.

-Marc-


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## KenpoDave (Jul 19, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> On the one hand, training left handed so as to be able to defend from the left is redundant. There are other techniques that cover that side.
> 
> On the other hand, training left handed to practice ambidexterity for its own sake, or simply as a personal challenge, has a lot of value.
> 
> On the third hand (don't ask whose, or how I got it), by the time you're really ready to start training the other side, it's probably time to get a little more spontaneous anyway. You'd be better served spending your energy doing something other than practicing techniques.


 
Well said.  Though I would submit that doing techniques you already know from the opposite perspective would be a right brain activity, and would be a step towards increasing the spontaneity of your reactions.  It also allows you to do ANY technique, no matter the "side" of your initial reaction.


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 19, 2007)

Maybe I missed something, if I did then I apologize, but there is another thing to think about here and that is:

We train right and left handed, and that is how it should be. But now think of it not as right and left handed but how about the thought of open and closed stance? I'll try to illustrate below ... 

*Closed Stance*
_This is when both fighters have the same foot forward. Either both have the right foot forward, or both have the left foot forward._ 

*Open Stance*
_This is when the fighters have opposite feet forward. Either your right foot is forward and thier left foot, or your right and their left._

This matters along with with hand is punching. Why? Cause in kempo, as with many other arts, positioning is all important as far as applying checks, sweeps, hockdowns, etc.

As an example, if the technique you have been training calls for a right leg hockdown and they have the left leg forward, good luck. The same thought applies to a technique that calls for a leg check to the right, if it is back, you'd better be in a bit deeper.

Just another thought ... any further ideas on how this relates to this thread?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 19, 2007)

Yin/Yang?




LONE KIMONO (front left hand lapel grab)
DELAYED SWORD (front- right lapel grab)

LONE KIMONO (front left hand lapel grab)

    * 1. Standing naturally, step back (to 6 o'clock) with your left foot when your opponents grabs your lapel with his left hand. Simultaneously pin his left hand to your chest with your left hand and deliver a right upward strike against his left elbow just above the joint thus causing the elbow to break as you pivot into a right neutral bow.
    * 2. Then circle your right arm over and down (counter clockwise) with an nward-downward strike against opponent's left forearm. Make sure that your opponent's left arm is driven down and diagonally to your left.
    * 3. After cocking your right hand slightly toward you with your right palm up, deliver a right outward chop to the right side of opponent's neck; stance throughout is still a right neutral bow. Cock your left hand at your solar plexus, ready to check when needed. 


1. DELAYED SWORD (front- right lapel grab)

    * 1. With your feet together step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neutral bow stance, facing 12:00, while simultaneously executing a right inward block to the right inner wrist of your opponent. At the same time position your left hand at solar-plexus level as a precautionary check against further action.
    * 2. Immediately slide your right foot back into a cat stance.
    * 3. Without hesitation deliver a right front snap ball kick to your opponent's groin.
    * 4. Plant your right foot (back lo its point of origin) into a right neutral bow, facing 12:00, while employing Marriage of Gravity as you strike with a right outward handsword to the right side of your opponent's neck. Immediately slide your right hand (after the strike) to the right wrist of you opponent as a precautionary check.


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## Blindside (Jul 19, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Yin/Yang?
> LONE KIMONO (front left hand lapel grab)
> DELAYED SWORD (front- right lapel grab)


 
Yes, intentionally.


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## The Master (Jul 20, 2007)

But those are not mirrored techniques. There is a variation as written.


Both this and the child thread on KenpoTalk have been interesting reading. I find the varying attitudes interesting. For those who do not train techniques from both sides, I suggest an experiment. Strap your right arm to your side, and practise.

You will find the puzzle a challenging one to solve.


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## BigKiai (Sep 4, 2007)

I practice my techniques, forms, and combinations/DM's on both sides. After I'm comfortable with a new form, I'll begin working pieces of it on the left side, and then put it all together. 

I write left handed, but I throw with my right hand/arm. Strongest leg is right leg. In a perfect world, I'd play bass guitar right handed and electric guitar left handed.


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