# Does TKD make you stiff so you Kungfu looks bad?



## zijin_cheng (Aug 9, 2012)

I learned TKD until brown belt when I was 11 and stopped. In grade 10 i started Chinese martial arts.

After about 2 years many of my friends had graceful movements when doing forms, while I didn't and still looked like a block when doing them. (This place I went to emphasized more on beauty than usefulness, they had wing chun for usefullness)

Although I was unmatched in kicking power, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't be graceful, is it because TKDs movements are very powerful but stiff?


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## clfsean (Aug 9, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> I learned TKD until brown belt when I was 11 and stopped. In grade 10 i started Chinese martial arts.
> 
> After about 2 years many of my friends had graceful movements when doing forms, while I didn't and still looked like a block when doing them. (This place I went to emphasized more on beauty than usefulness, they had wing chun for usefullness)
> 
> Although I was unmatched in kicking power, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't be graceful, is it because TKDs movements are very powerful but stiff?



Yeah kinda but not really. TKD can be practiced relaxed, but that's not how it's generally seen, so yeah. You're stiff due to it. 

I've got a kid now that is a phenomn but went all the way to his Black belt test & the school closed. He's way stiff so I'm trying to get him to loosen up. It will wake a while. Don't rush the process, but listen to your teacher on how to relax but still be effective. You're used to thinking (most likely) "hard" equals strength & power. Not so much. You do that in CMA & you're fighting your own body.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 9, 2012)

I actually dropped it end of Grade 11, and that was about 5 years ago, been practicing on and off. I'm not sure why but I find it easier to be graceful when practicing a weapons form such as staff or broadsword.

I just started Wing CHun 2 weeks ago and being relaxed is the hardest thing I can do, it goes against everything I've been taught


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## rainesr (Aug 9, 2012)

I took TSD for several years before Kung Fu, and it took a while to relax.

One thing I did that seemed to help was to completely relax my arms and only perform the foot work for the form. Though my hands were not in the exact position they were supposed to be they were oddly close and with more power than I expected. I tried to keep some of that feeling when I added the hand techniques back and things started to fall into place.

~Rob


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## J W (Aug 9, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> I just started Wing CHun 2 weeks ago and being relaxed is the hardest thing I can do, it goes against everything I've been taught



I studied TKD in high school (oh, about 17 years ago now), and more recently studied a little Kenpo. I've been studying Wing Chun for the past year. 

I also found learning to relax fairly difficult when I first started WC (hell, I still struggle with it sometimes). They make it sound so easy - just hold you arm in this awkward position, but stay relaxed. So simple, yeah right. 

It will take you some time, just be patient with it and don't let it frustrate you. WC is about a 180 from TKD in this sense, so you will need to forget what you know. It doesn't apply. Also, don't try to perform the punches or anything with any power just yet - power = tension in your TKD mind, so just focus on relaxation in the movements. Power will come later. 

That's my little bit of advice for moving from TKD to WC. Good luck with your training.


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## oaktree (Aug 9, 2012)

Might want to try some relaxation exercises,meditation,zhan zhuang,reevaluate things.
take your time really feel your body in the form.
Feel where things are tense sense it relaxing.
Your teacher should be able to help you.


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## ilhe4e12345 (Aug 9, 2012)

I took TSD many many years ago (I was around 12-14 years old and only got as high as green belt im currently 27 years old) and I had the same problem when I began studying CMA. It was as if the stiffness followed me ...but my teacher was able to pick it out almost instantly. He taught me how to relax...im going on 6 years with my CMA training and I still find times when I will get a little stiff. One thing I do that helps a lot is to do forms slowly. When I do my Bung Bo form I take each step very very slowly and make sure to stay relaxed and fluid. Also making sure to do each movement corectly of course 

When I do my Wing Chun form and Bagua I make sure to pay close attention to being calm and relaxed....no need to rush. The knowledge and ability is there, just need to work at it. You will learn to relax, it will take some time but with a good teacher and you working on it soon enough you will be like water . 

Keep up your training and i must say I am very jealous....having powerful legs is always a plus especially in CMA. Powerful legs are my weakness as I have a messed up nerve in my lower right back that I am currently recovering from and it limits what I can do with kicks....but maybe one day ill be where i want. Strecthing and taking it slow...the ebst way to get something done the right way

Happy Training


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm not doing CMA with a teacher now, just practicing on my own, so I'll have to try and relax on my own.
What form is the best to use while learning to relax? I know:
Changquan wushu form 1 (Not the compulsory one)
Compulsory staff and dao
Tan Tui the super basic one

However, Wing Chun should help me relax.

Also, the kicking strength I possess (at least among my asian friends) is probably also because soccer is my favourte sport, so I'm always using my legs for everything.

Also, what is Zhanzhuang?


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## oaktree (Aug 10, 2012)

I would advise you to see a teacher in Chinese martial arts when you are having a very common beginner problem that can be easily corrected with the right teaching.
 However, practicing forms and not having a good root and being tense will carry on when you do find a good teacher making it harder to correct bad habits.

It really doesn't matter what form you practice to learn to relax. It is certain principles and characteristics that tribute to relaxing. Many times our tension is carried in our shoulders and necks that is why you hear the saying:_The weight is on my shoulders, you are a pain in my neck, the burden is on my shoulders.
_We also carry tension in our chest:_My heart is heavy, he clenched his chest in shock,Get something off my chest.
_We carry tension in our stomach:_Butterflies in the stomach, sick to your stomach, I have a gut feeling.
_I call these the four traps. When the neck relaxes the shoulder holds the support, then the shoulders relax causing the chest to hold the support, chest relaxes then the
stomach holds the support, when the stomach relaxes the Kua or legs hold the support. When the legs hold the support the legs become stronger, like a tree you are deeply rooted, unmovable in body and mind. 

Zhanzhuang &#31449;&#26729;. I really think it is better you Google it. It is the foundation for Chinese martial arts. If your internal is not good that will manifest in your external movements as well.


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## clfsean (Aug 10, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> I'm not doing CMA with a teacher now, just practicing on my own, so I'll have to try and relax on my own.
> What form is the best to use while learning to relax? I know:
> Changquan wushu form 1 (Not the compulsory one)
> Compulsory staff and dao
> ...



No... stop now.

Go find a teacher & learn correctly. None of those will teach you how to relax & execute properly. You need to be guided.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

I can't stop, as I need to continue practicing or I will lose it, and there are no CMA teachers around here, the closest one being 1600km away, only a wing chun teacher.

Im not practicing to be relaxed, I'm practicing to exercise and not lose what I've learned and being relaxed and graceful while doing it would be a nice bonus.

So I don't have a teacher to guide me, what do u guys suggest? Practice zhanzhuang?

Oh and JW, when I first started, the very first wingchun class, I equated relaxed to collapsible. And the difference that mentality brought me! That probably set me back a week or 2 in terms of well badness. The teacher is good, he's been trying to correct me, but its taken me about 2 weeks to actually do a proper bong without collapsing my forearm into my chest.


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## clfsean (Aug 10, 2012)

Where are you? Antarctica??


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm currently in Thunder bay Canada  doing a Co op there, we have about 100k people, predominantly white, and we only have about 12 schools here, almost all karate and TKD, one or 2 lending I think?

I'm not learning wingchun from a school, but under james roller who studied under Ernie barrios and has I think 17 years experience, we usually practice in the park.

So if you're a Californian, then yes I do live in Antarctica . Although originally from Toronto which is where I took CMA


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## clfsean (Aug 10, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> I'm currently in Thunder bay Canada  doing a Co op there, we have about 100k people, predominantly white, and we only have about 12 schools here, almost all karate and TKD, one or 2 lending I think?
> 
> I'm not learning wingchun from a school, but under james roller who studied under Ernie barrios and has I think 17 years experience, we usually practice in the park.
> 
> So if you're a Californian, then yes I do live in Antarctica . Although originally from Toronto which is where I took CMA



Well then practice with the WC guy, put the other stuff away simply because of my previous statements. You need to be guided, regardless of what you already have learned under another teacher. If you're having relaxation issues concerning techniques then you need to practice with somebody hands on so they can help guide you. 

When you get back to Toronto & can get to a proper long fist teacher if WC isn't necessarily your bag, do that. But in the meantime you're only reinforcing improper technique by trying by yourself (which is commendable but ill advised) and it will actually hamper your development.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Well then practice with the WC guy, put the other stuff away simply because of my previous statements. You need to be guided, regardless of what you already have learned under another teacher. If you're having relaxation issues concerning techniques then you need to practice with somebody hands on so they can help guide you.
> 
> When you get back to Toronto & can get to a proper long fist teacher if WC isn't necessarily your bag, do that. But in the meantime you're only reinforcing improper technique by trying by yourself (which is commendable but ill advised) and it will actually hamper your development.



Right now I love wingchun, so I can just practice that, however, it doesn't help me stay fit. I do 2 things, CMA forms and TKD kicks. If I stop the forms but continue with the kicks will it reinforce my stiffness? Or should I stop altogether? What my WC instructor always said is that if u know another martial art, its good and bad, good because u need something to close the distance to WC range (if u attacking) and bad because their fundamentals probably brought along lots of bad habits.

Oh 1 more thing. If someone practiced WC and CMA at the same time, will the CMA reverse the WC training with regards to stance such as keeping both shoulders to enemy?


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## clfsean (Aug 10, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> Right now I love wingchun, so I can just practice that, however, it doesn't help me stay fit. I do 2 things, CMA forms and TKD kicks. If I stop the forms but continue with the kicks will it reinforce my stiffness? Or should I stop altogether? What my WC instructor always said is that if u know another martial art, its good and bad, good because u need something to close the distance to WC range (if u attacking) and bad because their fundamentals probably brought along lots of bad habits.
> 
> Oh 1 more thing. If someone practiced WC and CMA at the same time, will the CMA reverse the WC training with regards to stance such as keeping both shoulders to enemy?



Ummm ... WC is a CMA. It's southern, not northern / modern wushu that you were picking up.

Just practice WC. You have somebody to help. Put the other stuff aside until you have the basics *down and solid*. By then maybe you'll be back in Toronto. 

As far as keeping fit... run, do calesthenics, do CrossFit or P90x or something.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

In my opinion, technically WC is CMA because its chinese, but its fundamentals are so different.

Also now I have to ask the question, I know I'm stiff compared to the people I did it with, but is my stiffness at a level so bad that if I continued it would be detrimental? Or hypothetically are my friends so good that my stiffness isn't that stiff at all?

Ill try to find a YouTube video of someone else with my level of stiffness.


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## clfsean (Aug 10, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> In my opinion, technically WC is CMA because its chinese, but its fundamentals are so different.



WC is a CMA because it was developed & founded in China. It's a southern originated art, so yeah the fundimentals are different than northern arts. The whole structure of the art (theory, mechanics, purpose) is totally different than the other stuff you did. 



zijin_cheng said:


> Also now I have to ask the question, I know I'm stiff compared to the people I did it with, but is my stiffness at a level so bad that if I continued it would be detrimental? Or hypothetically are my friends so good that my stiffness isn't that stiff at all?
> 
> Ill try to find a YouTube video of someone else with my level of stiffness.



No you're stiff because it sounds like the bulk of your training was in TKD & you haven't had enough exposure to what you want to do (Northern/modern wushu) to compensate for that. Now that you're not able to get to a teacher that can get you through that, so you're focusing on what your having issues with, as opposed to focusing on what you can get help with by training with the WC guy. 

I'm not sure what else to tell you.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

clfsean said:


> No you're stiff because it sounds like the bulk of your training was in TKD & you haven't had enough exposure to what you want to do (Northern/modern wushu) to compensate for that. Now that you're not able to get to a teacher that can get you through that, so you're focusing on what your having issues with, as opposed to focusing on what you can get help with by training with the WC guy.
> 
> I'm not sure what else to tell you.



Yes I know what you mean, that I'm stiff because the bulk of training is in TKD. What I want to know is has my 2 years in CMA counteracted some of that stiffness so I can continue to practice on my own? I found another video of someone about the same level as me, start at 4:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb1-dUm_s8M&feature=relmfu


And about my question whether CMA training will counteract WC training, since they have different structures, will practicing a lot of 1 structure be detrimental to the other structure?


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## clfsean (Aug 10, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> Yes I know what you mean, that I'm stiff because the bulk of training is in TKD. What I want to know is has my 2 years in CMA counteracted some of that stiffness so I can continue to practice on my own? I found another video of someone about the same level as me, start at 4:38
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb1-dUm_s8M&feature=relmfu
> 
> ...



Seriously... you have no northern/wushu teacher around you to help you train past your perceived issues there. You have somebody to teach you WC where you're located. Seems kinda straight forward to me.

As far as practice a short hand structure versus a long hand structure... they are different. Both are CMA, but are totally different. Is a circle detrimental to a square? No... they're different. You train in one, the other will feel different. You train one long enough & deep enough, the other will be totally new when picked up & kept easily apart. Don't try to blend them. Focus on what you have (coached WC). Put the other on a shelf until you can get to a teacher. 

That's about my last thoughts on that.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm still not getting the answer Im looking for, but maybe that's just me being a noob, I'm not even sure what to do now. I guess ill just ask my WC


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## J W (Aug 10, 2012)

clfsean actually gave you a pretty good answer to your question:



clfsean said:


> As far as practice a short hand structure versus a long hand structure... they are different. Both are CMA, but are totally different. Is a circle detrimental to a square? No... they're different. You train in one, the other will feel different. You train one long enough & deep enough, the other will be totally new when picked up & kept easily apart. Don't try to blend them. Focus on what you have (coached WC). Put the other on a shelf until you can get to a teacher.



Personally I found enough to practice in Wing Chun that I stopped practicing everything else so I could focus 100% on it. Since you have someone teaching you Wing Chun, I would agree with clfsean that you should focus on what he is teaching you and shelf everything else. You can dust off the Wushu (or whatever other CMA it was you practiced before) later when you find a teacher for it. In my opinion, it will only serve as a distraction right now. 

As for fitness, get out there and run. Or hit the gym. You don't need kung fu forms for fitness.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh ok now it makes sense. 

Last question, promise, I stretch and do TKD kicks mainly for fun and keep my flexibility.
Will this distract from WC training?


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## jks9199 (Aug 10, 2012)

As I read this, you're practicing some forms you learned a while ago, to keep them in memory and for exercise.  But you don't have ongoing guidance and correction in them, and you're having problems with bleed over from your TKD practice when you were a kid.  Meanwhile -- you've got someone teaching you wing chun.

You seem like you're trying to blend all of these things together, and, not surprisingly, it's not working well.  Each has different underlying principles.  Put the majority of your practice in the wing chun; you've got a teacher who can correct and guide you.  Practice the rest occasionally, once or maybe twice a week, mostly to keep the forms in your memory for when you get back to training in them.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

Sweet thanked to all of you guys.

I finally kknow what to do.


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## clfsean (Aug 10, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> As I read this, you're practicing some forms you learned a while ago, to keep them in memory and for exercise.  But you don't have ongoing guidance and correction in them, and you're having problems with bleed over from your TKD practice when you were a kid.  Meanwhile -- you've got someone teaching you wing chun.
> 
> You seem like you're trying to blend all of these things together, and, not surprisingly, it's not working well.  Each has different underlying principles.  Put the majority of your practice in the wing chun; you've got a teacher who can correct and guide you.  Practice the rest occasionally, once or maybe twice a week, mostly to keep the forms in your memory for when you get back to training in them.



Didn't I say exactly that?? 

Man... I need to work on communication skills better...


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

Its the part about the circle and the square that threw me off, now when I read those 2 as separate ideas it is much clearer.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 10, 2012)

Just answering overall, even though enough has already been said, some people are just stiff. The difference is that some MA dont mind, and You essentially cultivate Your own stiffness. Others promote being relaxed. Some people are just relaxed, as well. A naturally relaxed person will become more relaxed, a naturally stiff person will become less stiff. But it could be a long time and alot of work to change it to being fully relaxed.
Therefore, on some level, if You do TKD, Youll be doing it as You learnt to do it.
If You are learning WC, LEARN WC. Or You will keep doing what You learnt to do in a totally different system. Dont think of Yourself as someone who did TKD as a kid. Think of Yourself as a blank canvas learning WC that wants to relax more.


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## J W (Aug 10, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> Oh ok now it makes sense.
> 
> Last question, promise, I stretch and do TKD kicks mainly for fun and keep my flexibility.
> Will this distract from WC training?



Maybe? The kicks in WC are completely different than those in TKD (not surprisingly). When I started Kenpo a couple years ago, I was able to take my TKD kicks with me (since they are very similar; the Kenpo guys just kick lower) and I quickly had the best kicks in the class. When I moved over to WC, though, I had to start from scratch with the kicks. TKD didn't help me.

So if you do practice your TKD kicks, you will need to understand that WC kicks are completely different; don't try to TKD-ize your WC kicks.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

Hey sure man, thanks for the advice.


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## mograph (Aug 10, 2012)

You might want to consider standing-on-stake (_zhan zhuang_), to learn where you are holding tension in your body. In the beginning stages, you learn to stand without pain (eventually!) by distributing the work of standing throughout your body. You do this by finding the parts that are doing too much work (back, thighs, shoulders?), or doing unnecessary work (neck, hands?), then relaxing them and letting lesser-used body parts (usually complementary to those mentioned) assist as you adjust your posture slightly. The end result (of the early stages) is that you learn to relax your body parts when you need to do so, you get to know your body better, and you learn to distribute force throughout your body more efficiently. After that, you can learn other techniques if you want to continue.

At least that's what I've found. Your mileage may vary.


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## blindsage (Aug 10, 2012)

Doing a style like TKD doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be stiff.  As was said previously, some styles mind less that others.  I come from a Kyokushin Karate background, and in my experience there are a lot of stiff people from TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, etc.  But the best always learn a significant degree of relaxation in their movement and power expression, it comes with understanding economy of motion and where actual power comes from (maybe not as much a some TCMA ask of you, but a good amount).  If you are really stiff, IMHO opinion, you just haven't stuck with anything long enough, under a qualified teacher to understand why doing anything that way is more detrimental that beneficial.  If all of your TKD kicks are really stiff, then your mechanics are flawed.  You should be able to do them without a ton of tension.  If you can't, then you need to do more, but again, under a qualified instructor that can refine the flaws in your technique.  Power and speed come from technique and relaxed movement, not tension, and a good instructor can show you that.


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## jks9199 (Aug 10, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Didn't I say exactly that??
> 
> Man... I need to work on communication skills better...



Sometimes, it just takes a different way of expressing the same idea.  I also was posting around a 3 year old, so I think I started that post before you got your post up...


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 10, 2012)

blindsage said:


> Doing a style like TKD doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be stiff.  As was said previously, some styles mind less that others.  I come from a Kyokushin Karate background, and in my experience there are a lot of stiff people from TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, etc.  But the best always learn a significant degree of relaxation in their movement and power expression, it comes with understanding economy of motion and where actual power comes from (maybe not as much a some TCMA ask of you, but a good amount).  If you are really stiff, IMHO opinion, you just haven't stuck with anything long enough, under a qualified teacher to understand why doing anything that way is more detrimental that beneficial.  If all of your TKD kicks are really stiff, then your mechanics are flawed.  You should be able to do them without a ton of tension.  If you can't, then you need to do more, but again, under a qualified instructor that can refine the flaws in your technique.  Power and speed come from technique and relaxed movement, not tension, and a good instructor can show you that.



Agreed. It was what I was always thinking but afraid to admit. In between moving countries and then university, I never have had any long enough periods of time where i hhave steady free time, only now that I'm working do I have free time every day, hence the starting up of wingchun again


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## GaryR (Aug 13, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> I learned TKD until brown belt when I was 11 and stopped. In grade 10 i started Chinese martial arts.



Cool, which Chinese Martial arts? How old are you now?



zijin_cheng said:


> After about 2 years many of my friends had graceful movements when doing forms, while I didn't and still looked like a block when doing them.



This is a very standard product of TKD, and many Karate systems for that matter.  But, at this point, it's what's functional, not what's graceful that counts!



zijin_cheng said:


> (This place I went to emphasized more on beauty than usefulness, they had wing chun for usefullness)



Modern "Wushu" is typically focused on form over function.  WC is quite the opposite. 



zijin_cheng said:


> Although I was unmatched in kicking power, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't be graceful, is it because TKDs movements are very powerful but stiff?



If you were unmatched in kicking power, then clearly what you were doing is more function that this Wushu place.  Grace be damned, if your faster, deliver more power pound for pound, and have better movement / methods then that is what matters.

My advice; There are exceptions, but at large the TKD system is a sport.  It can be stiff, particularly the upper body.  The mechanics will be contraindicated with those of Kung-fu for the most part, but if the kung fu is not functional, I'd stick with the TKD if you never want to go the functional-fu route, TKD can be fun otherwise.

G


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 20, 2012)

GaryR said:


> Cool, which Chinese Martial arts? How old are you now?



Sorry for the late reply, I'm 21 and it was just general martial arts, learned some forms (didn't know the names until now)
, basic tan tui, changquan, compulsory staff/dao, monk's fist (can't find this one anywhere)



GaryR said:


> This is a very standard product of TKD, and many Karate systems for that matter.  But, at this point, it's what's functional, not what's graceful that counts!



Yea I know, I was training my kicking power so the kicks that mostly scare/annoy people would have a little more "oomph" in them. But I've always been fascinated by the grace employed by CMA practitioners, and want to be able to do at least 1 form with 1/2 as much grace as them, no matter how unuseful, just for kicks 



GaryR said:


> Modern "Wushu" is typically focused on form over function.  WC is quite the opposite.


 
Agreed, I just found that WC is extremely effective in that even a small guy or girl can generate tons of power without a lot of telegraphic movement.



GaryR said:


> If you were unmatched in kicking power, then clearly what you were doing is more function that this Wushu place.  Grace be damned, if your faster, deliver more power pound for pound, and have better movement / methods then that is what matters.
> 
> My advice; There are exceptions, but at large the TKD system is a sport.  It can be stiff, particularly the upper body.  The mechanics will be contraindicated with those of Kung-fu for the most part, but if the kung fu is not functional, I'd stick with the TKD if you never want to go the functional-fu route, TKD can be fun otherwise.
> 
> G



True, but sometimes when you are fascinated by "cool" looking CMA forms on TV, you want to be able to do at least 1 form like them, so I was hoping that I could become graceful enough that I could do a form and look "cool enough" to myself.

And in addition, I usually sparred with my friend who took "practical shaolin" martial arts, where forms were learned but sparring was a big part. We were quite evenly matched even though he had only be taking it for 5 months because his training was very combat oriented whereas my TKD + CMA was very form oriented with very little combat application. Then I sparred a WC friend, and tried to go all push hands on him and got absolutely destroyed, and was hooked.

Oh additional question, correct me where I'm wrong, but I find TKD, karate, MT etc all employ telegraphic movements to gain power, and hypothetically if a TKD went up against a WC guy of the same "skill level", would you say the WC guy would gain the element of surprise for at least a second or two because an experienced TKD/karate dude would rely on telegraphic movement to be able to effectively block/dodge, whereas a WC can just hit you with enough power without a large swing?


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## J W (Aug 20, 2012)

zijin_cheng said:


> Oh additional question, correct me where I'm wrong, but I find TKD, karate, MT etc all employ telegraphic movements to gain power, and hypothetically if a TKD went up against a WC guy of the same "skill level", would you say the WC guy would gain the element of surprise for at least a second or two because an experienced TKD/karate dude would rely on telegraphic movement to be able to effectively block/dodge, whereas a WC can just hit you with enough power without a large swing?



I would disagree with this. TKD, Karate, MT and pretty much all martial arts (that I am familiar with, anyway) train to develop non-telegraphic techniques. This isn't exclusive to Wing Chun. When I studied TKD years ago, we definitely worked to avoid telegraphing. Same with boxing; telegraphing your punches there could be a quick way to end the fight (but not the way you want it to end). 

If you were to go up against an experienced TKD/Karate/MT/etc guy and expect him to be telegraphing his movements, you might be in for a surprise.


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## mook jong man (Aug 20, 2012)

There are no pre movements in Wing Chun , and the striking is so directly aimed at the opponent that it makes it hard for the human eye to detect.

The stance or posture in Wing Chun is integral to non telegraphic movement.
With the body square on and the feet equidistant to the opponent , either side of the body has equal opportunity to strike the opponent , this adds a factor of unpredictability.

In comparison with a side on body structure , the lead leg and hand are the most dangerous to you because they are closest , the rear hand and leg although they will deliver a more powerful blow have a greater distance to travel and are more at risk of being countered.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 21, 2012)

J W said:


> I would disagree with this. TKD, Karate, MT and pretty much all martial arts (that I am familiar with, anyway) train to develop non-telegraphic techniques. This isn't exclusive to Wing Chun. When I studied TKD years ago, we definitely worked to avoid telegraphing. Same with boxing; telegraphing your punches there could be a quick way to end the fight (but not the way you want it to end).
> 
> If you were to go up against an experienced TKD/Karate/MT/etc guy and expect him to be telegraphing his movements, you might be in for a surprise.



Well, I find that I move at lot less during WC class compared to TKD or class, and i can throw a lot more punched in an hour with WC than I can with TKD because u really don't get that tired doing WC punches, so wouldn't more movement when initiating an attack mean more telltale signs and/or telegraphic motions.



mook jong man said:


> There are no pre movements in Wing Chun , and the striking is so directly aimed at the opponent that it makes it hard for the human eye to detect.
> 
> The stance or posture in Wing Chun is integral to non telegraphic movement.
> With the body square on and the feet equidistant to the opponent , either side of the body has equal opportunity to strike the opponent , this adds a factor of unpredictability.
> ...



Thanks for that, it really explained lots.


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## GaryR (Aug 31, 2012)

I understand, cool is fun, and fun is part of it.  My suggestion would be to find the kung-fu form you like the best, learn it, keeping mind how you might use it, then find someone else to teach you application - and play with application, then blend. 

The WC guy destroyed you because he had the tactile sensitivity to "listen" to your movements and act more effectively-and knew how to use the angles decently.
Additionally, there are numerous tactile drills contained in the Neijia arts that go way above and beyond what is contained in WC - i.e. Taiji four planes push hands, bagua rou shou, etc..fun stuff

As to your additional question; 

You are definitely not wrong; by comparison, the movement of those arts is very telegraphic. Surprise, speed, and power all count.  Power is generated by proper biomechanics, use of momentum, centripetal / centrifugal force, torque, etc. WC makes very good use of the foregoing by comparison to TKD / Karate in general.


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## zijin_cheng (Aug 31, 2012)

GaryR said:


> I understand, cool is fun, and fun is part of it.  My suggestion would be to find the kung-fu form you like the best, learn it, keeping mind how you might use it, then find someone else to teach you application - and play with application, then blend.
> 
> The WC guy destroyed you because he had the tactile sensitivity to "listen" to your movements and act more effectively-and knew how to use the angles decently.
> Additionally, there are numerous tactile drills contained in the Neijia arts that go way above and beyond what is contained in WC - i.e. Taiji four planes push hands, bagua rou shou, etc..fun stuff
> ...



Repped. Exactly what I was trying to express, but couldn't articulate because of my inexperience in martial arts


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 28, 2012)

Try to pull your punch back as fast as you can, let the end of your previous move to "bounce" into the beginning of your next move. Your form will then be very smooth.


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