# Defense against knife



## Bigshadow (Jan 26, 2006)

Hello, I thought I would start a thread about a couple of topics (maybe I should have made 2 threads) but this is a result of last night's training and it revolved around a couple of situations I had been reading about.  We had a small class last night, so I made a couple of suggestion of things to work from.  Ironically, all the things we worked on had very similar feelings and principles.  Anyway, I thought I would share my thoughts regarding the training and hopefully spark some discussion about the topic as it relates to the Bujinkan (but anyone is welcomed to post).

Last night's training was particularly interesting.  Yesterday, I had read a couple of threads on here (not in the Ninjutsu forum) about "Sucker Punches" and another about defense against a knife attack.  So when the instructor asked us if there were anything in particular we would like to work on, I had a couple of things that I would like to do.  First, although, I felt the "sucker punch" thing was a real no brainer, I thought it interesting about some of the ways an attack could come.  For instance one of particular interest that I wanted to play around with was the "hand shake/punch" combo.  

When working on the "handshake/punch" combo, it was not diffucult at all to get out of the way of the punch.  However, what was really evident, was that it is NO different than what we had been doing with other punches.  I suspect that alot of the underlying issues in the "sucker punch" thread centers around how to deal with the tug that happens with the handshake to make the punch connect.  This is where being relaxed and sensitive comes into play as most people are going to immediately try to recoil and resist the tug rather than just flow with it.  By recoiling and tugging it seems to puts the victim at the right distance needed for the punch, but flowing into the tug totally screws up the distance needed to make contact.  Of course there are other dynamics that happens, causing the attacker's balance and structure to be easily destroyed.  

After working on that for awhile, the instructor asked if there was anything else...  We have worked with knife attacks often, but I thought it would be fun to play around with the knife again.  So as we were getting started, a fellow dropped by who had trained with us a few times.  He has quite a bit of training in MA (kali, bjj, kickboxing, tkd, and a few other things).  He is also a prison guard at a high security prison.  During the course of his work he has seen some serious shank attacks and this is something that is a big concern of his.  He was gracious enough to show us some of the attacks that he has seen.  I will say that most of what he showed us (as an attack) were surprise attacks, very violent, and explosive.  It can also be quite intimidating to see someone that looks like and is the size of "The Rock" attacking like a prison inmate would. LOL  Anyway, we started breaking down the attacks and working on them and it didn't take long to see that it is the "same" as what we have been doing.  Incidentally, a common surprise knife or shank attack is from a handshake and the attack comes quickly and violently.  However, it turned out the same principles and feeling of the sucker punch was here with this attack as well.

It was evident quickly that dealing with these attacks are no different than dealing with any other knife attack.  All the same principles apply (Proper distance, timing, knife point, etc).

Anyway, I just thought I would open up a thread for discussion about knife training from a Bujinkan perspective.


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## rutherford (Jan 26, 2006)

One of the things I've noticed in the basic knife defenses I've been shown is the committed nature of the defense.  While simple, the work seems best against a committed attacker and when there is total commitment on a very sudden and violent response to the attack.

I found this very different from much of the other stuff we do.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 26, 2006)

I had the opportunity to go all-out on my teacher with a knife about two years ago - including from behind, with the element of surprise (i.e. with free intervals between attacks). And with a steel Spyderco Temperance trainer, not a soft/rubber knife.  

I died every time. 
That's not how it's supposed to work, is it...?


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## Bigshadow (Jan 26, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> One of the things I've noticed in the basic knife defenses I've been shown is the committed nature of the defense.  While simple, the work seems best against a committed attacker and when there is total commitment on a very sudden and violent response to the attack.
> 
> I found this very different from much of the other stuff we do.


If I understand you correctly, I think I would agree that the attacker being committed to the attack is important.  However, if one is not committed to the attack, we may have to, let's say, bait them into committing, if necessary. 

It seems when I have trained and the attacker is not committed, I am often not in any serious danger of being hurt.  I would think someone has to be "committed" to the attack.  Otherwise, it wouldn't be an attack, no?


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## rutherford (Jan 26, 2006)

No.  I'm talking more about how a skilled knife wielder can and will often change the direction of the attack or feint to a greater extent and more quickly than a striker.

Comes from the properties of the weapon.  You don't need to hit all that hard to cause a lot of damage with a knife.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 26, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I had the opportunity to go all-out on my teacher with a knife about two years ago - including from behind, with the element of surprise (i.e. with free intervals between attacks). And with a steel Spyderco Temperance trainer, not a soft/rubber knife.
> 
> I died every time.
> That's not how it's supposed to work, is it...?



No, it isn't supposed to work that way....  

You said, all-out.... I get the feeling from the tone of the message that it was at full speed.  If so, was this training or trying to measure where you are at with your training?


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## Bigshadow (Jan 26, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> No.  I'm talking more about how a skilled knife wielder can and will often change the direction of the attack or feint to a greater extent and more quickly than a striker.
> 
> Comes from the properties of the weapon.  You don't need to hit all that hard to cause a lot of damage with a knife.



I see.  Yes, those are other factors as well.  The thing to recognize is that the feint is no danger.  Not that I can do it consistently, based on where I am in my training.  But... It seems to me that the issue with that situation is recognizing the feint.  I think the key to this is the spine.  It is having an acute awareness of distance.  No matter how the arms are flailing about or moving about, one must be aware of the distance between the attacker's spine and the defender's spine.  This is the key distance to be observed and controlled.  

Right now, I do find it very difficult to not get mesmerized by all the movement and be aware of the critical distance with all the moving around.  It takes time to learn.  That is why we all train.  My point being, is that it is there, we just have to be able to first "see" it, then we have to train our bodies to do it.  

My approach is.... slow it down, (don't change the movement when doing this) and train.  Then as one gets the "feel" of it, start cranking up the speed.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 26, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> You said, all-out.... I get the feeling from the tone of the message that it was at full speed. If so, was this training or trying to measure where you are at with your training?


 
Ask him, not me. In any case, I tried all grips and all possible angles of attack. BTW, elbows move slower than hands...*hint hint*


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## Bigshadow (Jan 26, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Ask him, not me. In any case, I tried all grips and all possible angles of attack. BTW, elbows move slower than hands...*hint hint*


I am confused....  You were the attacker or defender?  My general point was this stuff undoubtably works, contrary to what some want to say about the Bujinkan.  I hope you were not thinking that I was infering otherwise. 


As for the elbows, yes, I would agree (if I understood what you meant by what you said).   The attacks demonstrated last night were with the elbows tucked close to the body.  As an uke, I often attack in a similar fashion because I am trying to keep myself covered as well.  Throwing the arm way out to make a cut (opening yourself up) is not a good habit to get into.  So when I am in uke mode, I am thinking how can I attack this person without exposing too much and of course sticking to the lesson. My behavior is all relative to how experienced the tori is.

With the elbows in close to the body the cuts, slashes, tsuki, is much smaller (also faster at full speed).  The caveat is that you have to get closer to cut while keep the elbows in.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 26, 2006)

I was the attacker, as indicated by my last post.

And no, that wasn't what I was getting at. People are often dazzled by the speed with which a knife-wielding attacker's weapon hand moves. But his elbow isn't moving nearly as fast. Classic shinkengata principle.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 26, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I was the attacker, as indicated by my last post.


I picked up on that in your last post, but it was contrary to what I thought you meant from your first post.  Sorry, missed that one.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> And no, that wasn't what I was getting at. People are often dazzled by the speed with which a knife-wielding attacker's weapon hand moves. But his elbow isn't moving nearly as fast. Classic shinkengata principle.


I see, yes, very true!


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## Dale Seago (Jan 26, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I think the key to this is the spine. It is having an acute awareness of distance. No matter how the arms are flailing about or moving about, one must be aware of the distance between the attacker's spine and the defender's spine. This is the key distance to be observed and controlled.
> 
> Right now, I do find it very difficult to not get mesmerized by all the movement and be aware of the critical distance with all the moving around. It takes time to learn. That is why we all train. My point being, is that it is there, we just have to be able to first "see" it, then we have to train our bodies to do it.
> 
> My approach is.... slow it down, (don't change the movement when doing this) and train. Then as one gets the "feel" of it, start cranking up the speed.


 
Yes -- Bravo!!!! Big-**** thumbs up!


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## Kreth (Jan 26, 2006)

I have a couple of the rubber training knives from Cold Steel. Chalking the knives and then a bit of randori can be very humbling...


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## Bigshadow (Jan 27, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I have a couple of the rubber training knives from Cold Steel. Chalking the knives and then a bit of randori can be very humbling...


Lately, I have been thinking of grabbing the wife's liptstick and taking it with me to training to put on the edges of the training knives.  (I am sure she would be happy about that :O) LOL 

After thinking more about that though, it too can be deceiving but in the opposite way.  Unless a knife is extremely sharp, it will take some measurable amount of pressure to slice through clothing.  Now of course it would take less to slice open skin.  On the flipside, it will nearly take NOTHING to get the chalk on you or lipstick, or whatever is used.  I can understand why one would do that, but I am really unsure of how important it is to do that.  :idunno:  I guess once in a while would be OK to get some measure of where a person is at.  But I can see where that would be counter-productive if done too often.

Maybe someone can shed some more light on that approach.

Just thinking aloud on this.


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## rutherford (Jan 27, 2006)

And then you see guys who will accelerate the motions of one hand by giving a quick slap with the other hand.  In my experience, Silat players do this a lot.


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## Kreth (Jan 27, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> After thinking more about that though, it too can be deceiving but in the opposite way. Unless a knife is extremely sharp, it will take some measurable amount of pressure to slice through clothing. Now of course it would take less to slice open skin. On the flipside, it will nearly take NOTHING to get the chalk on you or lipstick, or whatever is used. I can understand why one would do that, but I am really unsure of how important it is to do that. :idunno: I guess once in a while would be OK to get some measure of where a person is at. But I can see where that would be counter-productive if done too often.


I see it as more of a gauge, not an everyday thing. I like to use the soft carpenter's chalk, and apply it heavily to the blade of the knife. A soft touch will cause a blot of chalk, where an actual solid slash will show up as a more sharply defined line. Obviously, as you mentioned, thickness of clothing and other factors have to be taken into account. Also, you have to make sure that the participants don't start "point sparring." This type of drill is often best after you have shown several static techniques.


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## arnisador (Jan 28, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> After thinking more about that though, it too can be deceiving but in the opposite way.  Unless a knife is extremely sharp, it will take some measurable amount of pressure to slice through clothing.  Now of course it would take less to slice open skin.  On the flipside, it will nearly take NOTHING to get the chalk on you or lipstick, or whatever is used.



True, but...while a small folding knife may not cut through a leather jacket very easily, a Rambo knife certainly will...and you can stab a knife through a bulletproof vest (some discussion downthread here). It's true that the chalk may get on your shirt when you're doing a reasonably safe disarm that brings your hand/arm near the blade, but for the most part, I think it's useful to train to avoid the edge. Even in a jacket and against a small blade, you _can _get cut! You can always focus just on blocks and see how it goes. It should be educational! Also check out things like the No Lie training blades and the Shockknife.


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## arnisador (Jan 28, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> And then you see guys who will accelerate the motions of one hand by giving a quick slap with the other hand.  In my experience, Silat players do this a lot.



You also see it in the FMA, especially with some swordwork.


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## Connovar (Jan 28, 2006)

[





> My approach is.... slow it down, (don't change the movement when doing this) and train. Then as one gets the "feel" of it, start cranking up the speed.


 
Rule of thumb: If it takes more that  a dozen practice moves starting from slow to full speed to learn  it is to complex and to fine motor to be reliable.

Most  people who really want to gut you arent going to announce desires and intent. You might very well get stabbed once or twice before you know it happens. I have friends who  have  been knifed and didnt know it till afterwards. These just knew it never over untills it over and you just keep on fighting.


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## Don Roley (Jan 29, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> [
> 
> Rule of thumb: If it takes more that  a dozen practice moves starting from slow to full speed to learn  it is to complex and to fine motor to be reliable.



Check the original quote, that is not what is being said. Slowing something down to *fully understand* it is not the same as what you say.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 29, 2006)

Budget alternatives to No-Lie Blades...

www.sharkee.com 

www.virtualblade.com


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## eyebeams (Jan 29, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I had the opportunity to go all-out on my teacher with a knife about two years ago - including from behind, with the element of surprise (i.e. with free intervals between attacks). And with a steel Spyderco Temperance trainer, not a soft/rubber knife.
> 
> I died every time.
> That's not how it's supposed to work, is it...?



Try it with someone you do not have a hierarchical relationship with.


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## eyebeams (Jan 29, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Lately, I have been thinking of grabbing the wife's liptstick and taking it with me to training to put on the edges of the training knives. (I am sure she would be happy about that :O) LOL
> 
> After thinking more about that though, it too can be deceiving but in the opposite way. Unless a knife is extremely sharp, it will take some measurable amount of pressure to slice through clothing. Now of course it would take less to slice open skin. On the flipside, it will nearly take NOTHING to get the chalk on you or lipstick, or whatever is used. I can understand why one would do that, but I am really unsure of how important it is to do that. :idunno: I guess once in a while would be OK to get some measure of where a person is at. But I can see where that would be counter-productive if done too often.
> 
> ...



Actually, it largely works the opposite way. A 3" blade can cut to the bone on a bare human forearm (Michael Janich demonstrates this with a simulated "arm" made of pork and dowel, with a plastic skin for resistance). Edged weapons have far more penetrating power than generally thought, and a point on a hard-tanged knife has no problem penetrating several layers of clothing. 

In my opinion, this is primarily a factor when it comes to selecting techniques and postures that minimize the exposure of blood vessels. In mid-technique, getting cut isn't a factor. You have to defend yourself anyway and can't stop. If your technique is good you're more likely to minimize injury.


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## Connovar (Jan 29, 2006)

There is actually one technique from taijitsu that passed what I call the "force recon test". It consists of going  down to down to the basement with your 6 ft 2 active duty marine force recon brother in law. You give him a wooden tanto with him to attack full force and full speed his choice of slash or stab and you defend. If yoiu can get 90% success then the technique is a keeper. It still doesnt factor in the surprise and adrenaline stress factor which occurs when really facing a knife but its a start.


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## arnisador (Jan 29, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Budget alternatives to No-Lie Blades...
> 
> www.sharkee.com
> 
> www.virtualblade.com



I really like the Sharkees a lot; I use them for general training. Some of my sparring partners prefer that I use wood because the Sharkees are too hard! I haven't tried the Virtual Blade marking system. I know that No Lie comes recommended.


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## arnisador (Jan 29, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Try it with someone you do not have a hierarchical relationship with.



Agreed. If your techniques work 90% of the time against a knifer, your opponent isn't trying.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 29, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I see it as more of a gauge, not an everyday thing.



I was thought that is how it should be applied.




			
				Kreth said:
			
		

> Also, you have to make sure that the participants don't start "point sparring." This type of drill is often best after you have shown several static techniques.



It can see how that can easily happen.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 29, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Budget alternatives to No-Lie Blades...
> 
> www.sharkee.com
> 
> www.virtualblade.com



Thanks for the links.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 29, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Try it with someone you do not have a hierarchical relationship with.


 
Do I seem to be a guy who gets along with authorities very well?


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## Connovar (Jan 29, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Agreed. If your techniques work 90% of the time against a knifer, your opponent isn't trying.


 
I am talking about the attacker who rushes in attacking with thrust or slash, not a person who feints etc etc. A different technique is required for the knife fighter who stays just out of range darting in and out with the blade which is not a common attack. Most people with a knife who want to kill you just rush in and stab and slice the crap out of you. My friends who experienced this were bouncers.

On the other hand I knew a merc with a 2nd degree in some MA but obviously because of what he did for living oriented his unarmed skills heavily to the practical end. He was working in the phillipines when someone sent a trained knifer after him. He tried  blocking the strikes with his hands and forearms and ending up getting some nasty cuts and lost part of one his fingers because the guys was so fast. However he changed tactics, knocked him down with a kick and then brained him with a chair.

I had a guy once pull a knife on me and demanded money. Like a typical 27 y.o. who just got another shodan two weeks before I was dumb and didnt run when I had the opportunity. However he was surprised by a hard side kick to his bladder and he went down. That followed up by a soccer kick to his head finished the issue. In retrospect I should have run or given him the money but ego got in the way. Hopefully I have learned something since then.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 30, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I am talking about the attacker who rushes in attacking with thrust or slash, not a person who feints etc etc. A different technique is required for the knife fighter who stays just out of range darting in and out with the blade which is not a common attack. Most people with a knife who want to kill you just rush in and stab and slice the crap out of you. My friends who experienced this were bouncers.



For the most part, I would agree that someone wanting to kill you is going to come in and try to get some. Then there are the types who spend time in prison who use a knife with feints. Based on what we saw from the guard, their attacks look similar to boxing but instead of punches it is jabs or slices with a shank or knife. I would suspect that one could encounter this on the streets. Evidently, boxing is popular in prison and many seem to use that as a basis for their shank attacks. Just another something to consider.

However, the principles in dealing with the different attacks are all the same.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 30, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Then there are the types who spend time in prison who use a knife with feints.


 
...and as such, if he displays his weapon before being at bad-breath-distance, he is offering you the possibility of escape. I suggest you take it rather than trying to engage.


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## Connovar (Jan 30, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> ...and as such, if he displays his weapon before being at bad-breath-distance, he is offering you the possibility of escape. I suggest you take it rather than trying to engage.


 
I would very much concur. Our wallets and/or  pride arent worth price.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 30, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> ...and as such, if he displays his weapon before being at bad-breath-distance, he is offering you the possibility of escape. I suggest you take it rather than trying to engage.


True.  He did show some of that, but mostly it was fast and violent (gonna get some) type of attack.  The weapon wasn't displayed at all, it is concealed up until the attacker pounces.  What he demonstrated was that they appear to actually pounce on you ( getting very close, almost like hugging/holding) and simultaneously jabbing vitals.  He did say it was more jabs than slashes.

Sorry if I made it sound as if it was alot of feints and such.  Not enough caffine at that time this morning.   I am better now 

Don't get me wrong, I am not engaging if I have a chance to escape.


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## eyebeams (Jan 30, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Do I seem to be a guy who gets along with authorities very well?



Within your art? Definitely.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 31, 2006)

I know what you're implying, and the problem is non-existent. I think I'm one of few who have walked out in the middle of a training session at a seminar due to the Judan + in command being a jerk to several people including myself.


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## Don Roley (Feb 1, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> ...and as such, if he displays his weapon before being at bad-breath-distance, he is offering you the possibility of escape. I suggest you take it rather than trying to engage.



Maybe he his, maybe he isn't.

The act of pulling out a weapon and showing it to the other party is known as brandishing. Sometimes people do it to get you to comply with their demands for money or to get you to leave. There is such a thing as someone upping the stakes to that level in what is essentially a tiff about turf. And of course, sometimes they leave a way of escaping by accident.

In those cases, either get the hell out of there or give him your wallet.

But as men (and all the participents so far seem to be men) we have a blind spot. We don't think about someone trying to rape us. Rapists will sometimes brandish a weapon in order to get their victim to co-operate. In cases like that, many women are saying that they would fight rather than be raped- especially if it looks like the guy may kill them afterward anyway.

And there are cases of sadistic types pulling out a knife to show you before they attack. If you can run, great. Otherwise... the following story may be of use.

I meet a lot of people in the Bujinkan who have come to train here in Japan. One guy, who I will not name, had a situation where someone pulled a knife out and told him how he was going to gut him like a pig. (Or something of that nature.) The Bujinkan guy does not wait for him to finish his speech and does a textbook _tanto dori_ on the hand holding the knife. Kaboom! He had been studying another art at the same time as Bujinkan and made the choice to concentrate on Bujinkan at that moment.

It is funny because my teacher, Hiroshi Nagase, often teaches us _tanto dori_ but tells us it is there to mainly learn skills since people will not leave the knife out there after trying to stab you. When I heard the story I could hardly wait until the next time we were out drinking to tell him how someone _did_ leave a knife out long enough for it to work- but not as a thrust.

Food for thought and training.


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## eyebeams (Feb 1, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I know what you're implying, and the problem is non-existent. I think I'm one of few who have walked out in the middle of a training session at a seminar due to the Judan + in command being a jerk to several people including myself.



It all depends. The psychology of hierarchies is very, very powerful, and I do not personally believe that anyone is immune to it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 1, 2006)

If for example Nagato sensei tells me I'm an idiot for not being able to do something he has demonstrated, that's one thing I can tolerate. If a Western shidoshi tells me to pick up my dropped diaphragm and get going because I've stepped off the mat to get some water, or KO's me for no apparent reason...that's something else, and not something I'd just let slide. So you can stop your insinuating right now, you don't know me.


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## Kreth (Feb 1, 2006)

Even better, how about you both drop it and get back on topic...


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## Bigshadow (Feb 1, 2006)

That is an interesting story Don.  I guess as is all too familiar, whether to comply, fight, or flight is dependent upon the situation at that moment and there is no canned answer as to how to deal with it on a discussion board like this.  But definitely a great discussion.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 28, 2006)

.....mmm.....Traditional Ninjutsu?.....Knife defense?...mmm....The Ninja To!


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## Azzy (Jul 12, 2006)

"The only way to defend against a knife is with a knife or a BIGGER knife"
My dojo gets these guys once a month who teach us Piper style or Cape flats knife fighting. Was developed right here in Cape Town, South Africas prisons.  http://www.pipersystem.com/
The speed which these guys move at is INSANE. There is no option of fighting back unarmed (no matter what your art is). Even with a knife your chances are slim.
Will see if I can get a clip up on these guys practising.


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