# Sites with info on Kenpo Sticks



## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

Any one know of any sites with write ups or videos on useing sticks in Kenpo? I'm still working out with those Kali guys, and doing better. But there's still a lot of room for improvement!

Did double stick fighting the first time last night, and surprisingly didn't do too bad- especially considering that I've hardly even held two sticks at the same time, let alone practiced with them. These guys also do 'live stick' (no padding) from time to time, and I'd sure like to get a little better before I have to do that. And I will. One thing about traditional FMA, you don't refuse a challenge, even if it is a 'friendly' one. As allways, any help *really* appreciated!


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

ob2c:

Are you looking more for forms or two man drills?  In terms of actual fighting, you could do a lot worse than kali guys.  As for forms, if I am correct, Parker kenpo deals with sticks (single and double) after black belt level -- any tape that dealt with requirements for those specific ranks should have some treatment of stickwork.


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

I found this site, which has a video clip of a stick drill:

http://www.akki.com/_videos/index.htm

I have a question about it, though. His footwork and stance leaves the front leg too far forward, exposing the knee and foot to strikes. Is this just for the drill, or is this how the AKKI teaches to fight with sticks? When moving in for strikes, the Kali guys will advance the lead leg like that, but they never leave it there long.

Also, I've been using stance changes to generate power with the sticks, and to position myself and move my targets. The principles still apply and seem to work really well with the sticks. It is mostly the angles and the spatial relationships that change. Or so I've theorized. But I don't see the AKKI guy really using stance changes in these strikes. However, this looks like it is a speed striking drill, and you wouldn't need that much power if you overwhelm the opponent with stick strikes. The Kali guys don't use stance changes to generate power either. Their footwork is either evasive, positional, or attacking. So, do the basics change too when working with sticks? Would you mostly use footwork to move for position or evasion and use the stance changes sparingly, say when you've set him up or the perfect opening presents itself? It would be faster to, say, step to the side and strike with no stance change. But, on the other hand, there is something really satisfying about a good solid hit when you step to the side into a good forward bow, then strike as you transition into a neutral bow. How do you guys do this?


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

Often with two sticks one fights in a relatively square stance so that both weapons are out front and in play. What he was doing may make sense for his drill of course. A sinawali-style movement may be used in almost a JKD "straight blast" way, driving in on a stunned opponent with a rapid barrage when the opportunity presents itself.

I have usually found fighting with two sticks easier than single stick as you can often use one stick to offer a general defense and try to strike with the other. Single stick is more of a chess game! I'm sure many will have had a different experience.


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

pknox, thanks. I'm looking for general principles right now. I'm an intermediate level Kenpoist. But I have to work out with other styles because there are no other Kenpoists that I know of within about 60 miles, at least. And these Kali guys are easily the most seriouse martial artists in the area. Also, it is fun! It would just be more fun if I didn't feel like the striking dummy after eery session.

They do give me pointers and advice. But I'm used to moving from a neutral bow, and that is where I'm comfortable, so that is what I'm trying to work on. I may be getting way ahead of myself here. But what the hey- opportunity is opportunity, early or late.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I have usually found fighting with two sticks easier than single stick as you can often use one stick to offer a general defense and try to strike with the other. Single stick is more of a chess game! I'm sure many will have had a different experience. *



Agreed!  Single stick teaches use of the live hand, and enables one to incorporate locks, traps, and gunting maneuvers, which while not impossible, are harder to pull off in a double stick scenario.  I also feel it's a lot harder, because you don't have a stick to hold back for defense.  The mechanics might be harder at first when you're getting used to double, but I've always felt more exposed with single, which makes it at least psychologically harder for me to deal with.  Now me using single stick vs. an opponent's double stick, that makes me play almost exclusive defense -- no fun there.


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

arnisador, what I was doing was to use one stick to check, or clear the opponents sticks and comeing in with the other to strike. It actually worked pretty good. But the instructor said it usually does work until the opponent figures it out. They are going to work on drills to counter this (probably as I type this now), so I doubt I'll be able to use it effectively again.


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Agreed!  Single stick teaches use of the live hand, and enables one to incorporate locks, traps, and gunting maneuvers, which while not impossible, are harder to pull off in a double stick scenario. *



Oh, man! I forgot all about gunting! They do this thing where the sticks are held to one side, palms down and butts (punyos) together, and they usually thrust with the lead stick first. But it seldom connects because it is a long way to your face. But if you could do that strike like a gunting, then move on in with backup strikes... might work, I don't know.

edit: you'd obviously delete the parry here, but with the extra reach of the stick it shouldn't be necessary, right?


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *They do give me pointers and advice. But I'm used to moving from a neutral bow, and that is where I'm comfortable, so that is what I'm trying to work on. I may be getting way ahead of myself here. But what the hey- opportunity is opportunity, early or late. *



No worries -- actually you've got a great opportunity here, as nobody knows stickfighting better than, well, stickfighters.  Believe it or not, in the long run you will probably be better off.  An analogy I would use is this -- if you want to learn chemistry, do you go to a chemist or a biologist?  Sure, a biologist has to have some knowledge of chemistry to do their job, so they have to be at least competent in it, but to a chemist, that's their bread and butter.  

You can take the kenpo you know and combine it with the kali and it will be quite effective.  Pay special attention to anything they show you that integrates stick with empty hand and penetrating through to get to a trapping range.  When you get in, graft your kenpo techniques onto the stick entry and you'll be set.  Ask them how you can get entries while positioning your feet in kenpo stances too -- they may give you some great ideas!  You can go in reverse too - using low trajectory kenpo kicks for entry - after unbalancing someone, a stick strike is one heck of a finishing technique!

You have two choices -- use your kenpo to get into stick striking range and finish someone off with the sticks, or use the sticks to immobilize and finish someone off with your kenpo techniques.  Either one should work wonderfully.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *Oh, man! I forgot all about gunting! They do this thing where the sticks are held to one side, palms down and butts (punyos) together, and they usually thrust with the lead stick first. But it seldom connects because it is a long way to your face. But if you could do that strike like a gunting, then move on in with backup strikes... might work, I don't know. *



Yes.  But when using single stick, you can also perform a gunting with the "live" hand (the one without the stick) as almost a type of trap or limb tieup.  A followup with a #2 strike (backhand to the head for me, I'm not sure what numbering system you are using) is a traditional response, but anything that puts the stick on the opponent effectively would be nice.

Check out some Silat - it uses gunting maneuvers even when unarmed. 

All of this will also work in your kenpo, even without the stick -- see what a great opportunity you stumbled into?


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

Yes, they'll likely try to block your clear and with their other stick strike low if you clear high and high if you clear low, or just do essentially the exact same move back at you and count on speed to beat, or enough of a change of position/angle to negate, your strike. They may (instead or in addition) use your initiation of the clear to try to jump in and jam you, or jump back and try to whack your hand. (Of course, it might be something entirely different!)

Here's where you need the "broken rhythm" to abort your clear and change it into a leg shot or something!


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *edit: you'd obviously delete the parry here, but with the extra eack of the stick it shouldn't be necessary, right? *



That depends.  That's the beauty of you having two sticks as well, as you can keep one back for defense, in case they sneak one in on you.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *They may (instead or in addition) use your initiation of the clear to try to jump in and jam you, or jump back and try to whack your hand. (Of course, it might be something entirely different!)
> *



arnisador -

Excellent point!  Because we don't like to beat up our training partners, we often forget that the hand is not only a legitimate target, but often a preferred one.  The one group I've seen train that really well are the Lameco people.  I'm pretty sure Guro Sulite was the one who developed that hand covering I've seen all over the place, that allows you to whack the hands - they make pretty extensive use of it.

BTW, when you say "jump", are you referring to a footwork maneuver?


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Check out some Silat - it uses gunting maneuvers even when unarmed.  *



Unarmed is the only way I know this , and I believe it did come from silat. Say he throws a right hooking punch. You move to your left and simulatneously left inward parry the punch and strike the tricep with a right punch. If you catch it right, you deaden his arm.
Correct?


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Because we don't like to beat up our training partners, we often forget that the hand is not only a legitimate target, but often a preferred one.*



These guys LOVE to get a good shot on your hands. We wear gloves when sparing, but they don't help that much! I'm definately learning to keep my live hand bak in single stick. I like to keep it up by my left shoulder. We are taught it is best to have your hands above your opponents when possible. But most of them keep it low, but back.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *Unarmed is the only way I know this , and I believe it did come from silat. Say he throws a right hooking punch. You move to your left and simulatneously left inward parry the punch and strike the tricep with a right punch. If you catch it right, you deaden his arm.
> Correct? *



Exactly.  But it doesn't necessarily end there.  You can continue by wrapping your hand over the top into a standing joint lock, which could become a nasty throw (much like you would see in silat) or a standing break. Also from silat, a snaking move inward with the gunting arm, which then goes around the head, and twists the head and neck to a takedown.  The last one would work more off of the nerve strike, while the first version could behave more like an aiki-jutsu technique.

The same principal is used in FMA as well, just you have a stick in the other hand.  Nice advantage to have.  The gunting then becomes an immobilization followed by a followup stick strike.  Think how you would do it in silat with a knife in the other hand -- just realize you have even greater range with the stick.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

If you find yourself in that right-leg forward position, remember that a lot of high-line attacks can be countered by crashing forward and defending with either a roof block (DBMA-style) for high attacks or, for medium-high attacks, an abbrieviated overhead strike (either bring your stick in by pushing it forward and leaving it basically straight up, or by moving it through a fairly tight circle in a plane perpindicular to the floor until contact is made). If you don't go back to the well too often you can use this; repeat it and you'll start getting checked and hit in the leg or something.

To be frank, though, these work better with single stick and as mentioned earlier use of the live hand. For double stick you probably want a more nearly square stance.

Double stick is great for teaching hand coordination!


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *We are taught it is best to have your hands above your opponents when possible.*



Yes!  And isn't that also a concept you have heard before, in kenpo?  The systems definitely mesh well, both in technique and philosophy.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *If you find yourself in that right-leg forward position, remember that a lot of high-line attacks can be countered by crashing forward and defending with either a roof block (DBMA-style) for high attacks or, for medium-high attacks, an abbrieviated overhead strike (either bring your stick in by pushing it forward and leaving it basically straight up, or by moving it through a fairly tight circle in a plane perpindicular to the floor until contact is made). If you don't go back to the well too often you can use this; repeat it and you'll start getting checked and hit in the leg or something.
> 
> To be frank, though, these work better with single stick and as mentioned earlier use of the live hand. For double stick you probably want a more nearly square stance.
> ...



Oh, and don't be a schmuck like me, and not raise the stick high enough in roof block, as you will be hit in the head...with your own stick!


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Double stick is great for teaching hand coordination! *



Not to mention humility, especially at the beginning.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *BTW, when you say "jump", are you referring to a footwork maneuver? *



Yes, and not a literal jump by any means--I mean a quick and explosive step-drag movement, or possibly in some cases a shuffle-step if moving backward. I'm thinking of times when things are moving too fast to have great luck with our usual 45-degree stepping scheme.

P.S. Yes, lots of gunting possibilities! That's what I taught my son tonight--"Variations on Gunting". We did end up in a few of those locks, occasionally one hand controlling both of the opponent's arms.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *...(either bring your stick in by pushing it forward and leaving it basically straight up, or by moving it through a fairly tight circle in a plane perpindicular to the floor until contact is made).*



arnisador -

What do you guys call that technique?  I'm pretty sure in Inosanto-Lacoste it's a horizontal redondo, but I'm not 100% sure.


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *No worries -- actually you've got a great opportunity here, as nobody knows stickfighting better than, well, stickfighters.*



That's what I figure. I'm actually seriously considering joining their school. But there are a lot of things to consider beore doing this, not the least of which is what to do about Kenpo. I really love the art, but I've been well over a year now without a steady training partner. Tough decission.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Yes, and not a literal jump by any means--I mean a quick and explosive step-drag movement, or possibly in some cases a shuffle-step if moving backward. I'm thinking of times when things are moving too fast to have great luck with our usual 45-degree stepping scheme. *



Like a sort of straight blast?  Makes sense.  I've actually had some success stepping (blasting, really) almost completely past the opponent, and then hitting a rear target with a backhand.  Not exactly tournament legal, but something I think I'd try on the street.  A strike to the back of the head would probably get their attention nicely.  I always feel more comfortable doing that with a double stick setup, as I like to keep the second stick back to keep from taking one in the teeth on the way past.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *arnisador -
> 
> What do you guys call that technique?  I'm pretty sure in Inosanto-Lacoste it's a horizontal redondo, but I'm not 100% sure. *



In the second case, I'm really thinking more of a #12 strike (overhead strike with blade awareness) than what we would call a redonda or hirada or abanico movement. A very shortened overhead strike that moves from your usual tick position in a circle with blade awareness. It may describe a very limited arc of the circle, unlike what I think of as a redonda-type movement.

I doubt I'm giving you the right impression--we consider it a special case of the overhead strike but it wouldn't look like one.

In the first case, it's the idea of the C block--your hand describes a small letter C, drawn from bottom to top.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *That's what I figure. I'm actually seriously considering joining their school. But there are a lot of things to consider beore doing this, not the least of which is what to do about Kenpo. I really love the art, but I've been well over a year now without a steady training partner. Tough decission. *



The kenpo school is 60 miles from you, right?  How about regular training with the kali guys, and weekends (or whenever you can) with the kenpo folks?  That way you could train in both.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Like a sort of straight blast?  Makes sense.  I've actually had some success stepping (blasting, really) almost completely past the opponent, and then hitting a rear target with a backhand.  Not exactly tournament legal, but something I think I'd try on the street.  A strike to the back of the head would probably get their attention nicely.  I always feel more comfortable doing that with a double stick setup, as I like to keep the second stick back to keep from taking one in the teeth on the way past. *



Yes, and then consider punyos, or grappling with the stick(s) since you've negated their striking range.

For holding the hands higher than theirs, one must look out for the occasional person who will take it as an invitation to use ocho-ocho (figure eights) to strike your hands from below! Keeping the hands in motion helps.

As for joining, Modern Arnis has done very well by fitting itself in with other arts. I don't think the FMA would conflict with one's Kenpo.


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Yes!  And isn't that also a concept you have heard before, in kenpo?  The systems definitely mesh well, both in technique and philosophy. *



Actually, I was talking about Kenpo. They havn't really said anything about this to me in the Kali sessions. Most of them keep it low, or they'll put it out as bait. Tricky beggars! I've learned not to bite- I go for something else. I usually still get whacked, but at least I don't feel so foolish about it.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *In the second case, I'm really thinking more of a #12 strike (overhead strike with blade awareness) than what we would call a redonda or hirada or abanico movement. A very shortened overhead strike that moves from your usual tick position in a circle with blade awareness. It may describe a very limited arc of the circle, unlike what I think of as a redonda-type movement.
> 
> I doubt I'm giving you the right impression--we consider it a special case of the overhead strike but it wouldn't look like one.
> ...



OK.  I see.  I believe a redondo would be more of a full circle, and this would be more of a shorter arc.  I think hirada would be the correct term for us as well.  At the end of the arc, is it coming straight down to the top of the head, as opposed to the side of the head/temple, due to the sharp cutting of the circle?


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *For holding the hands higher than theirs, one must look out for the occasional person who will take it as an invitation to use ocho-ocho (figure eights) to strike your hands from below! Keeping the hands in motion helps.
> *



Excellent point.  However, if you're really suicidal , you could use this to draw a low attack, and maybe be able to followup with a sweet little short #1 or #2 caroming off of the block.  Or then again, you could get creamed.   Granted, this will work once, and after that will be an invitation for reconstructive surgery.

I'm thinking double here.  I'd be crazy to try to pull that off with my live hand.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

By the way, I hate ocho-ocho -- I get chewed up with that one all the time.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

Well, straight down to the top of the head or even straight in to the center of the face. I said 'tight circle' but it doesn't fully capture my meaning. Imagine your stick vertical and rotating it into the opponent's face--your tip travels more-or-less on the arc of a circle, but it will look nearly like a straight-line shot into the face. Now, it isn't exactly a rotation--it's a strike that causes the stick to move like this. Of course, since you're jamming that may well be interrupted by his stick. If so the C block is stronger and leaves you less open to counters directed at manipulating your stick (in single stick).

Sorry, would be easy to show!


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *P.S. Yes, lots of gunting possibilities! That's what I taught my son tonight--"Variations on Gunting". We did end up in a few of those locks, occasionally one hand controlling both of the opponent's arms. *



Which reminds me how nasty Silat really is at its core.  Of all of the arts I've taken, I think it left me with the most bruises by far.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *By the way, I hate ocho-ocho -- I get chewed up with that one all the time. *



There's one guy who has my number somehow and can often get me with it--otherwise a straight line shot down or switching to banda y banda (side-to-side strikes) often makes them switch startegies as it keeps interrupting their figure-eights with hand shots (Prof. Presas' favorite trick!).


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *The kenpo school is 60 miles from you, right?  How about regular training with the kali guys, and weekends (or whenever you can) with the kenpo folks?  That way you could train in both. *



Actually, the Kenpo school I train with is over twice that far, one way. The one that is about 60 miles away is actually Ki Fighting Concepts, run by Sifu Joseph Simonet. They do a combination of Kenpo, Silat, Ving Tsun- and his number two (Addy Hernandez) is an excelent Taiji instructor as well. Believe me, I've also considered that! My problem is that I love American Kenpo, and the instructor I train under is one of the best I've seen in any art or discipline. I've talked with him about my situation, of course. But it would be a tough change to make- I just havn't been able to do it yet. But you need a good partner to work with to learn Kenpo- it is a hands on art. I'll work it out eventually. And I may do something like you suggested and do both. We'll see.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *There's one guy who has my number somehow and can often get me with it--otherwise a straight line shot down or switching to banda y banda (side-to-side strikes) often makes them switch startegies as it keeps interrupting their figure-eights with hand shots (Prof. Presas' favorite trick!). *



Very nice!  And hand strikes do work both ways, since by "chewed up" I meant getting hit on the hands.  The beauty of a figure eight is they can hit your hands on the way up and the way down!  I guess I never really thought of side-to-side.  I always basically try to stop the stick with an immobilization or a disarm during an 8, because I get sick of getting hit in the hands all the time.


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## pknox (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *Actually, the Kenpo school I train with is over twice that far, one way. The one that is about 60 miles away is actually Ki Fighting Concepts, run by Sifu Joseph Simonet. They do a combination of Kenpo, Silat, Ving Tsun- and his number two (Addy Hernandez) is an excelent Taiji instructor as well. Believe me, I've also considered that! My problem is that I love American Kenpo, and the instructor I train under is one of the best I've seen in any art or discipline. I've talked with him about my situation, of course. But it would be a tough change to make- I just havn't been able to do it yet. But you need a good partner to work with to learn Kenpo- it is a hands on art. I'll work it out eventually. And I may do something like you suggested and do both. We'll see. *



Well, you definitely seem to have thought it out.  Good luck!


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## ob2c (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Well, you definitely seem to have thought it out.  Good luck! *



Thanks. And yes, I've thought a lot about it. And, as I said, there are other considrations that I won't boar you with. One thing about it, I have some good options here. So I won't do too bad any way I end up going!

PS: I think I just got involved in hijacking my own thread! I'd be worried that it would get moved to the FMA forum if the team leader in this hijack wasn't the senior moderator.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *PS: I think I just got involved in hijacking my own thread! I'd be worried that it would get moved to the FMA forum if the team leader in this hijack wasn't the senior moderator.*



We can get warnings too! Don't assume we're not guilty just because I'm involved!


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## ob2c (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *We can get warnings too! Don't assume we're not guilty just because I'm involved!   *



Nah! Discussions sort of go where they go, and there's some good info between the two of you. But if anyone knows of any good sites, I'm still interested.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 3, 2003)

... but I enjoyed the discussion too.

-MB


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## pknox (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *Nah! Discussions sort of go where they go, and there's some good info between the two of you. But if anyone knows of any good sites, I'm still interested. *



I'll keep an eye out for them, and will be sure to post them if I find any.


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## pknox (Sep 3, 2003)

ob2c:

I found a couple of quick sites you may be interested in:

http://www.ajtvideo.com/s_fighting.htm (deals with fighting)
http://www.arnis.org/kenpo/rapidform.htm (deals with forms)

Larry Tatum supposedly has a new video out where he deals with sticks as well:  http://www.ltatum.com/


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## ob2c (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> * yea, I'm watching -MB *... but I enjoyed the discussion too.



 Conspiracy!!!


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## ob2c (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *I found a couple of quick sites you may be interested in*


* 

Thanks. I'll check the sites out. I have some of LT's tapes (from his 'When Kenpo Strikes' serries), and he is excellent at both Kenpo and his instruction. So I'll check that also.*


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## ob2c (Sep 3, 2003)

pknox (or any one else), 

do you know anything about Tim Bulot, from the link

http://www.ajtvideo.com/s_fighting.htm 

???

Sounds interesting, but what is his reputation as a Kenpoist? Anyone know about, or have seen or used his videos?


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