# I'm gonna do some Ninjutsu today



## Dylan9d (Mar 16, 2017)

Yeah.........a friend of mine saw a Ninjutsu school in the city we live in and he asked me if I could accompany him to a lesson.

I said yes.

It's a Bujinkan Brian Dojo so I'm not really sure what to expect.....


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2017)

Find out how to do that chicken attack thing. 

That looks pretty cool


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## Dylan9d (Mar 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Find out how to do that chicken attack thing.
> 
> That looks pretty cool



I'll check if they have some info on that


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## Buka (Mar 16, 2017)

Have fun, bro. Let us know how it was.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 18, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Yeah.........a friend of mine saw a Ninjutsu school in the city we live in and he asked me if I could accompany him to a lesson.
> 
> I said yes.
> 
> It's a Bujinkan Brian Dojo so I'm not really sure what to expect.....



Okay, cool. There are a couple of things to know, though...

The Bujinkan Brian Dojo, despite the name, are not associated with the Bujinkan itself... Brian McCarthy was one of early Bujinkan members in Europe (Ireland), and left the Bujinkan in the 90's (as an 8th Dan). However, he claimed to have copyrighted the name "Bujinkan" in Europe, and therefore continued to use the name for his new schools... the BBD, or Bujinkan Brian Dojos... this has, understandably, led to some rather poor feelings towards them... 

The BBD teaches a fair amount of the same content, however Brian has also added a fair bit of his own thing, including a number of methods that are quite different to that found in what are called the "Ninjutsu" schools (the Bujinkan, Genbukan etc...). Over the years, what the BBD represents has moved more and more away from the Bujinkan (and other forms of Ninjutsu), and more into his own creation... so, while you may get something out of the class, it might not be what is recognised as "Ninjutsu" by others...


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## Dylan9d (Mar 18, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, cool. There are a couple of things to know, though...
> 
> The Bujinkan Brian Dojo, despite the name, are not associated with the Bujinkan itself... Brian McCarthy was one of early Bujinkan members in Europe (Ireland), and left the Bujinkan in the 90's (as an 8th Dan). However, he claimed to have copyrighted the name "Bujinkan" in Europe, and therefore continued to use the name for his new schools... the BBD, or Bujinkan Brian Dojos... this has, understandably, led to some rather poor feelings towards them...
> 
> The BBD teaches a fair amount of the same content, however Brian has also added a fair bit of his own thing, including a number of methods that are quite different to that found in what are called the "Ninjutsu" schools (the Bujinkan, Genbukan etc...). Over the years, what the BBD represents has moved more and more away from the Bujinkan (and other forms of Ninjutsu), and more into his own creation... so, while you may get something out of the class, it might not be what is recognised as "Ninjutsu" by others...



Thanks for the info Chris.

The lesson I got was boring, really boring. Unrealistic techniques that leaned more towards Judo than anything else.

For example, we got a standing choke from the back, the teacher wanted us to throw the attacker with a should throw, so I grabbed my partner pretty tight and he couldn't throw me because he was shorter and not as strong as me.

I do want to state that this school probably wasn't a good representation of Ninjutsu,

So to make a long story short, I won't be back training there.......


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## Chris Parker (Mar 18, 2017)

Hmm... okay... if you didn't enjoy the class, sure, don't head back... but I'd caution against making such critiques, as the description you give indicates that perhaps you were not a particularly good training partner there... without being there, it's not easy to say one way or the other, but if that's all the technique involved, either it was a drill using compliance (not full resistance, and not with you trying to grab "pretty tight") in order to understand the mechanics of the throw and it's application... in actual usage, that's just one part, with a fair bit of set-up in order to overcome the strength of a rear hold... or it was possibly that the teacher was presenting it as the whole answer, in which case, yeah, not a good sign.

Either way, the specifics and context need to be understood in order to know if that's actually a flaw... training in a different context to the intended one is not a good way to ascertain the dojo, or the art...


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 18, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> For example, we got a standing choke from the back, the teacher wanted us to throw the attacker with a should throw, so I grabbed my partner pretty tight and he couldn't throw me because he was shorter and not as strong as me.


Applied correctly and under the proper circumstances, that technique is totally legitimate. It doesn't require the thrower to be stronger than the attacker and being shorter actually helps.

That said, if the instructor knows what they are doing, they should have been able to come around and sort out the problem. Either your training partner didn't understand the details of the technique (in which case the teacher should have helped correct him) or you were applying the choke in a different way than the technique is meant to counter (in which case the teacher should have corrected your attack and could also have shown the proper counter for the version of the choke you were applying).

For the record, that particular defense only works against an uneducated attack where the attacker stands square to the defender's back and doesn't pre-emptively break the defender's balance backwards to a significant degree. If the attacker stands more perpendicular and pulls the defender backwards, then you use a different defense.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 18, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Applied correctly and under the proper circumstances, that technique is totally legitimate. It doesn't require the thrower to be stronger than the attacker and being shorter actually helps.
> 
> That said, if the instructor knows what they are doing, they should have been able to come around and sort out the problem. Either your training partner didn't understand the details of the technique (in which case the teacher should have helped correct him) or you were applying the choke in a different way than the technique is meant to counter (in which case the teacher should have corrected your attack and could also have shown the proper counter for the version of the choke you were applying).
> 
> For the record, that particular defense only works against an uneducated attack where the attacker stands square to the defender's back and doesn't pre-emptively break the defender's balance backwards to a significant degree. If the attacker stands more perpendicular and pulls the defender backwards, then you use a different defense.



So making your story short, it doesn't work that well......

Look if an instructor says to me, literally "this is how you can be grabbed on the street" than it doesnt make any sense training it with a compliant partner ......


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## Dylan9d (Mar 18, 2017)

When my schedule opens up a bit more I'll be doing Pukulan Madura Kombinasi, which is a bit more in line with the stuff that I'm teaching at the moment.


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## jks9199 (Mar 18, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> So making your story short, it doesn't work that well......
> 
> Look if an instructor says to me, literally "this is how you can be grabbed on the street" than it doesnt make any sense training it with a compliant partner ......


I want to start with a caveat -- I wasn't there, I don't know what was going on, and I don't have anything but your words here to put some pieces together...  Don't view this as an attack on you, so much an observation or perhaps a different perspective based on what you've posted.  (Yep, that means it may well feel like an attack.)

You're a new student in the class -- but have a base of other experience to draw on.  They're teaching a particular move.  Not every student in the class has that base of experience.  When a technique is first presented -- it's often presented rather unrealistically, and practiced at first in an unrealistic manner.  It's possible that the apparent lesson isn't even what the instructor wants the students to get out of it... (I could see, for example, using this particular technique, if I understand it properly, to show some things about leverage and the mechanics of a throw...)  So, you proceed to "attack realistically" and your training partner can't make it work.  He's missed out on the lesson -- in fact, he's been robbed of the lesson of the day, and been taught instead that it doesn't work.  I'll add this on the issue of correction...  The worst sign from my teacher is silence.  He doesn't tell you you're wrong.  He doesn't tell you you're right.  He just lets you go.    I LOVE being corrected -- because it tells me he still cares whether I'm learning.  I've seen him teach seminars, and, at first, wondered why he let some people roll through, doing things that weren't even close to what he was trying to teach.  It took me a while to realize that he knew that there's no point in correcting some people -- they simply won't listen.

It can be really hard to step back, and simply do what you're told when you're used to being the front.  At the same time -- it's an exercise I encourage people to do.  It can be a great grounding experience... and a reminder of our own limits.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 19, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> I want to start with a caveat -- I wasn't there, I don't know what was going on, and I don't have anything but your words here to put some pieces together...  Don't view this as an attack on you, so much an observation or perhaps a different perspective based on what you've posted.  (Yep, that means it may well feel like an attack.)
> 
> You're a new student in the class -- but have a base of other experience to draw on.  They're teaching a particular move.  Not every student in the class has that base of experience.  When a technique is first presented -- it's often presented rather unrealistically, and practiced at first in an unrealistic manner.  It's possible that the apparent lesson isn't even what the instructor wants the students to get out of it... (I could see, for example, using this particular technique, if I understand it properly, to show some things about leverage and the mechanics of a throw...)  So, you proceed to "attack realistically" and your training partner can't make it work.  He's missed out on the lesson -- in fact, he's been robbed of the lesson of the day, and been taught instead that it doesn't work.  I'll add this on the issue of correction...  The worst sign from my teacher is silence.  He doesn't tell you you're wrong.  He doesn't tell you you're right.  He just lets you go.    I LOVE being corrected -- because it tells me he still cares whether I'm learning.  I've seen him teach seminars, and, at first, wondered why he let some people roll through, doing things that weren't even close to what he was trying to teach.  It took me a while to realize that he knew that there's no point in correcting some people -- they simply won't listen.
> 
> It can be really hard to step back, and simply do what you're told when you're used to being the front.  At the same time -- it's an exercise I encourage people to do.  It can be a great grounding experience... and a reminder of our own limits.



I have no problem at all starting over, I did that multiple times, with Eskrima and Krav Maga. It's just that I won't be starting over in a fantasy club.


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## dunc (Mar 19, 2017)

Which club was it?
Just curious...


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> So making your story short, it doesn't work that well......
> 
> Look if an instructor says to me, literally "this is how you can be grabbed on the street" than it doesnt make any sense training it with a compliant partner ......


In many cases "compliant partner" means providing the attack the technique works against. I often catch students giving attacks that would require a different approach (forward energy not present, etc.). Just because a technique doesn't work on a given attack, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. A rear naked choke doesn't work if the guy is a step away, facing you, has his hands on his own throat, or a hundred other reasons. But it does work when used properly. The same is true of the defense in question. In many standing grappling arts (perhaps all), one of the most important skills is being able to recognize which technique fits a given situation.


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## drop bear (Mar 19, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> I have no problem at all starting over, I did that multiple times, with Eskrima and Krav Maga. It's just that I won't be starting over in a fantasy club.



Sort of. If you know the move is coming ahead of time then you should be able to counter it.

So given that he has let you get the lock on and then told you before hand what defence he is going to use. He would have to be pretty bloody slick to then pull it off if you are actively trying to prevent him from doing so.

And a lot of moves don't just work. It is a fight. You have to be better or more committed to making it work than they are at stopping you.

It has taken me forever to get seonagi even vaguely functional against a resisting guy. There are a lot of elements you need to get right befor it just works.






And I dont even like Ninjutsu.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 19, 2017)

dunc said:


> Which club was it?
> Just curious...



Home

It's all in Dutch though, and I'm not sure if they are a good representation of the label "ninjutsu" or anything associated with that.

With that being said, next up Pukulan Madura Kombinasi


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## oaktree (Mar 19, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Thanks for the info Chris.
> 
> The lesson I got was boring, really boring. Unrealistic techniques that leaned more towards Judo than anything else.
> 
> ...


If a person is learning a technique it really is bad etiquette to resist at first. The person is most likely trying to get his footing, and start to work on the breaking of balance. I by chance, also went to a jinenkan dojo the same day you had your lesson, coming from a Daito Ryu and other arts background I went with the pace and flow of the school.  What was being taught was a particular technique done with little resistance to ensure the lesson, concepts and foundation were being used. To me, the gem to be found was not so much in technique but the concept of distance and timing and distribution of attack. Seeing an arts public face is not the same as seeing an arts true face which often times is only shown to people who have practiced the art for some time.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 20, 2017)

oaktree said:


> If a person is learning a technique it really is bad etiquette to resist at first. The person is most likely trying to get his footing, and start to work on the breaking of balance. I by chance, also went to a jinenkan dojo the same day you had your lesson, coming from a Daito Ryu and other arts background I went with the pace and flow of the school.  What was being taught was a particular technique done with little resistance to ensure the lesson, concepts and foundation were being used. To me, the gem to be found was not so much in technique but the concept of distance and timing and distribution of attack.* Seeing an arts public face is not the same as seeing an arts true face which often times is only shown to people who have practiced the art for some time*.



The bold part oaktree, when a school does have so called "public face" and show that on their trial lessons then they aren't showing themselves for what they really are and in my opinion thats usually a red flag.

I don't knwo if you read my posts that well, but if a teacher is telling me to grab as we were in a street fight, then I will resist.


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## oaktree (Mar 20, 2017)

In order to understand a Japanese art and people this article may apply.
www.nakasendoway.com/omote-ura-public-and-private-faces/

Watching say Katori Shinto Ryu, practicing for the first time and being in depth in the Ryu all have different levels of presentation. The public and first timer won't see the true characteristics in depth. 

If you are resisting on someone trying to learn a technique it makes the student have a hard time learning the fundamentals of the technique. Say you are doing a knife drill and you are learning the sequence you would go slow, maybe count. After you have got the sequence down then speed it up maybe add a slight variation. For sure would not go full speed. Now for the student not being to apply the technique against a resisting person, possible he sucked but what might have been he was learning the technique.

Anyway I think the dojo was not a good fit for you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 20, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> The bold part oaktree, when a school does have so called "public face" and show that on their trial lessons then they aren't showing themselves for what they really are and in my opinion thats usually a red flag.
> 
> I don't knwo if you read my posts that well, but if a teacher is telling me to grab as we were in a street fight, then I will resist.


The issue here is that there is no technique that will work against every version of that grab. None. So, it's okay to give an appropriate level of resistance, but the resistance has to be in the direction that makes the technique available, or you're just countering the technique and he won't be able to demonstrate it. Let me give you an example. One early application to a Leg Sweep I teach is from a frontal choke (the Hollywood Psycho choke). I use that one because it's an easy one to execute the technique from and tends to show up common errors pretty nicely. The technique will work if the "attacker" stands still, though it's harder to do that way. It works really well if they do a natural choke-and-push attack. There are two things you can do that will stop the technique (as taught) really easily: stiffen your arms, or pull back while choking. Now, there are plenty of things I can do with either of those, but neither lends itself to this technique. One of them is just unrealistic (stiff arms), and the other is awkward and unlikely (pulling back while choking).

So, if I am demonstrating this and you stiffen your arms, I'll just tell you to use your arms naturally and push me back. If you give a giant shove, you're no longer choking, and I'll just choose someone who will give the attack requested so we can work on the technique at hand. You see, for any technique, there's three groups of actions that can be called "resistance":

Counters. These are things people can do that aren't necessarily natural responses, but which nullify the technique. That's things like lifting a leg to avoid a sweep, dropping weight abnormally low, etc.
Unnatural resistance. I see this one the most. This is stiff arms and such where people say they are providing resistance. But it's not real resistance. It's almost into the counters. People don't normally choke with their arms locked at a 25 degree angle. People don't normally grab with their arms locked out (they normally are either pushing or pulling). People don't punch with all their weight leaning on the block at the end (I see that a lot with advanced students trying to test partners' blocks). 
Natural resistance. This is the stuff someone would naturally do in the situation. So, if I pull, the natural resistance is to pull back. If I pull and you shove, that's technique, not resistance. Now we're sparring, and that's fine in the right context, but not for learning a new technique.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 21, 2017)

oaktree said:


> In order to understand a Japanese art and people this article may apply.
> www.nakasendoway.com/omote-ura-public-and-private-faces/
> 
> Watching say Katori Shinto Ryu, practicing for the first time and being in depth in the Ryu all have different levels of presentation. The public and first timer won't see the true characteristics in depth.
> ...



The difference is, that the guy I was paired up with, is a black belt. So his understanding of that technique should be fine and it wasn't his first time.

@gpseymour Let me repeat myself once more, the teacher asked us all to attack our partner as we were in a street situation. Black belt......street situation.....

Now I have never been overly impressed by a "black belt" other than certain expcetional people, but my opinion is still, if you wear that belt you better be sure as hell that can follow through.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 21, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> The difference is, that the guy I was paired up with, is a black belt. So his understanding of that technique should be fine and it wasn't his first time.
> 
> @gpseymour Let me repeat myself once more, the teacher asked us all to attack our partner as we were in a street situation. Black belt......street situation.....
> 
> Now I have never been overly impressed by a "black belt" other than certain expcetional people, but my opinion is still, if you wear that belt you better be sure as hell that can follow through.


I understand the confusion. I'm giving you some context. There's a reason I don't give that sort of instruction when working on a specific technique. That he did (and then your partner couldn't do the technique) makes me wonder if they are accustomed to _making it work_. IMO, that's a poor approach. A technique either is right for a situation (and should be reasonably easy to get to) or it isn't (in which case you do something different). He should have explained the kind of attack that technique is meant to work on. Drop Bear posted a video in post #15 that illustrates this. The standing shoulder throw he starts the session with is highly effective (we have a similar one). But it only works when you use it appropriately. By not giving you good instruction (and you not having the information to figure it out on your own), you gave an attack that made that technique the wrong choice. IMO, a black belt should have been able to tell you that and explain why it would be the wrong choice, and maybe point out one alternative he could have used, given that attack. Your assumption that he couldn't "follow through", rather than that he was constrained by the technique they were supposed to do, shows a lack of understanding.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 21, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> The difference is, that the guy I was paired up with, is a black belt. So his understanding of that technique should be fine and it wasn't his first time.
> 
> @gpseymour Let me repeat myself once more, the teacher asked us all to attack our partner as we were in a street situation. Black belt......street situation.....
> 
> Now I have never been overly impressed by a "black belt" other than certain expcetional people, but my opinion is still, if you wear that belt you better be sure as hell that can follow through.


If the instructor just told you to grab your partner "as if you were in a street situation" rather than giving you the specific attack the counter was meant to work against, that indicates a problem in his teaching skills, his understanding of the technique, or both.

You might hope that your black belt training partner would have enough experience to recognize that you weren't feeding him the right attack for the defense in question and switch to a more appropriate technique. However black belt is not a very advanced rank in the Bujinkan. I don't know how it is in the BBD. Either way, he should have called the instructor over to ask for help and the instructor should have been able to correct his technique (if you were feeding the correct attack) or else correct your attack to the appropriate one for that defense and also show the correct defense to the attack you were using. When I teach that technique, I show the 2-3 most common methods for an untrained standing choke and the appropriate defense against each. If I have time, I may also show a more technical approach to applying the standing choke which shuts down those defenses.

This is all based on the supposition that you weren't intentionally just trying to mess him up and keep him from practicing the technique. If you have reasonable skills and are bigger and stronger than your training partner and are put in a highly advantageous position and know in advance exactly what technique your partner is going to try applying to you, then you should be able to shut it down and prevent him from executing that particular move no matter _what_ the technique is, unless he is a lot better than you. You may be setting yourself up for some different technique, but you should be able to stop the specific move which was indicated beforehand. Generally the only way you get to tell someone ahead of time exactly what you are going to do and execute that exact move despite their best efforts to stop you are if you are much more skilled than them, have much greater physical attributes, or get to start out in a much superior position.

I'll assume you weren't trying to be a bad training partner in that sense and turn it into a sparring session where you got to start with a dominant position. If you were just trying to follow the teachers instructions and grab your partner's neck the way you were told and your partner wasn't able to make the technique work and the instructor didn't come by to fix the situation, then that would seem to indicate a lower level of instruction than you should be looking for.


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## oaktree (Mar 21, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> The difference is, that the guy I was paired up with, is a black belt. So his understanding of that technique should be fine and it wasn't his first time.
> 
> @gpseymour Let me repeat myself once more, the teacher asked us all to attack our partner as we were in a street situation. Black belt......street situation.....
> 
> Now I have never been overly impressed by a "black belt" other than certain expcetional people, but my opinion is still, if you wear that belt you better be sure as hell that can follow through.


Well maybe he just sucks then! Personally I would be Leary of anyone calling their dojo Brian dojo.


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## drop bear (Mar 21, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> The difference is, that the guy I was paired up with, is a black belt. So his understanding of that technique should be fine and it wasn't his first time.
> 
> @gpseymour Let me repeat myself once more, the teacher asked us all to attack our partner as we were in a street situation. Black belt......street situation.....
> 
> Now I have never been overly impressed by a "black belt" other than certain expcetional people, but my opinion is still, if you wear that belt you better be sure as hell that can follow through.



No fair enough if they ask you to do it.  Then do it.  If he can't get out it is on him. 

There is a jujitsu meme for just this situation.

"Hey coach how do you escape a rear naked choke? "

"you messed up a long time ago. "


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## dunc (Mar 22, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Home
> 
> It's all in Dutch though, and I'm not sure if they are a good representation of the label "ninjutsu" or anything associated with that.
> 
> With that being said, next up Pukulan Madura Kombinasi



I wouldn't judge the Bujinkan by the BBD, which is essentially a different art (& I speak from direct experience)

Probably there are some legit Bujinkan Dojos in the area so may try them before dismissing the style


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## Dylan9d (Mar 23, 2017)

dunc said:


> I wouldn't judge the Bujinkan by the BBD, which is essentially a different art (& I speak from direct experience)
> 
> Probably there are some legit Bujinkan Dojos in the area so may try them before dismissing the style



Like I said, they are probably not a good representation for the traditional Bujinkan or anything associated with that.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If the instructor just told you to grab your partner "as if you were in a street situation" rather than giving you the specific attack the counter was meant to work against, that indicates a problem in his teaching skills, his understanding of the technique, or both.
> 
> You might hope that your black belt training partner would have enough experience to recognize that you weren't feeding him the right attack for the defense in question and switch to a more appropriate technique. However black belt is not a very advanced rank in the Bujinkan. I don't know how it is in the BBD. Either way, he should have called the instructor over to ask for help and the instructor should have been able to correct his technique (if you were feeding the correct attack) or else correct your attack to the appropriate one for that defense and also show the correct defense to the attack you were using. When I teach that technique, I show the 2-3 most common methods for an untrained standing choke and the appropriate defense against each. If I have time, I may also show a more technical approach to applying the standing choke which shuts down those defenses.
> 
> ...



Because at the end of the day if someone let me sink that choke they are probably not getting out.  

It is pretty far to the advantage of the choker.


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## dunc (Mar 24, 2017)

FWIW that technique isn't used against a full RNC

If a RNC is on then you need a different response I think


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## drop bear (Mar 24, 2017)

dunc said:


> FWIW that technique isn't used against a full RNC
> 
> If a RNC is on then you need a different response I think



Even a decent standing sleeper is a pig to escape out of. There really isn't a technique that will get you out.

It is more of a case of a technique that will give you a fighting chance.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Even a decent standing sleeper is a pig to escape out of. There really isn't a technique that will get you out.
> 
> It is more of a case of a technique that will give you a fighting chance.


For any strong choke like that, the best defense is the same: stay the hell out of it. If someone gets you in one, they beat you before the choke.


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