# Why did Eastern TMAs lack a hook and uppercut until boxing was introduced to Asia?



## Bullshidog (Feb 3, 2015)

One thing I noticed was that every TMA I came across in their undiluted forms lacked a variation of hooks and uppercuts. Not even what we call "kickboxing styles" today such as Muay Thai had the uppercut and hook in their predecessor forms and its only exposure with western boxing that such kickboxing styles developed variations.

In fact its precisely because western boxing gave predecessors of kickboxing styles immense trouble in rings and duels that eventually MT and such adopted hooks and uppercuts and even the basic boxing guard modified  to also fit in with the style's techniques at least according to what I read.

Considering all the rich styles that remain preserved throughout much of Asia, why didn't Eastern forms develop boxing style techniques without the influence of the West? What exactly is unique about western culture that led to such two unique variations of punching?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> One thing I noticed was that every TMA I came across in their undiluted forms lacked a variation of hooks and uppercuts.


The hook and uppercut exist in both the "long fist" system and the "praying mantis" system. The uppercut also exist in the "XingYi" system.

The following are popular praying mantis combo:

- jab, cross, hook, hook,
- hook low, hook middle, hook high,
- hook, back fist, uppercut,

The hook, back fist, uppercut combo can be seen in this "long fist" form.






Here is an example of XingYi Zhuan Quan (uppercut).







Here is an example of the "praying mantis" "hook".






The hook can be seen in this "praying mantis" form too (at 0.36).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2015)

dup, deleted.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 3, 2015)

I might ask why have y'all forgotten how to throw a straight punch? But, that is none of my business.


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## Drose427 (Feb 3, 2015)

A lot of styles had types of these. The Ridge hand, is the exact same motion as a hook in many styles, only the striking surface is different.


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## Buka (Feb 3, 2015)

Welcome aboard, Bullshidog. Interesting handle, by the way.

After you have a few more years of training, research and study under your belt, I think you'll find most of the answers you seek. (just keep your hands up while doing it)


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## punisher73 (Feb 3, 2015)

As others have pointed out, there exists in many chinese martial arts, the hook and uppercut.

If you go back to the "bareknuckle" days of boxing, you will find that they didn't really throw the hook as you see in modern boxing, it was more opened up and looked more like you would find in the tma's.  Watch a boxing match with the gloves and you see that most of them don't really hit with the proper striking surface due to the gloves, it usually lands on the part of the knuckles as if you were knocking on a door.

Lots of stuff changed in boxing with the advent of the larger gloves, things like how the punches were thrown, what kinds of punches are thrown and even what the guards look like.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> One thing I noticed was that every TMA I came across in their undiluted forms lacked a variation of hooks and uppercuts. Not even what we call "kickboxing styles" today such as Muay Thai had the uppercut and hook in their predecessor forms and its only exposure with western boxing that such kickboxing styles developed variations.
> 
> In fact its precisely because western boxing gave predecessors of kickboxing styles immense trouble in rings and duels that eventually MT and such adopted hooks and uppercuts and even the basic boxing guard modified  to also fit in with the style's techniques at least according to what I read.
> 
> Considering all the rich styles that remain preserved throughout much of Asia, why didn't Eastern forms develop boxing style techniques without the influence of the West? What exactly is unique about western culture that led to such two unique variations of punching?


I recommend you do more research and look into acquiring a bit of knowledge and understanding of the movements within some of the TMA forms. There are many examples of circular type of strikes including horizontal and vertical type strikes like the boxing hook and uppercut. Presentation is different but the application is there.

With the adaptation of hand protection (gloves within competitions) many aspects of competition boxing changed. That said, why are there so many examples of good boxers having broken their hands when using their skills during an out of the ring fight but you seldom hear of such happening with traditional type martial artists?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> One thing I noticed was that every TMA I came across in their undiluted forms lacked a variation of hooks and uppercuts.


If we look at from a different angle, the following are not commonly used in boxing:

- back fist,
- hammer fist,
- hay-maker,
- spiral punch (praying mantis Ha Quan - a curve punch end with a straight punch),
- side punch (Xingyi Heng Quan - use forearm to hit on the side of your opponent's body).

IMO, you should be able to use your entire arm to punch and not just to use your fist. The hay-maker that you use your forearm to hit on the back of your opponent's head can be a powerful "finish move".


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## clfsean (Feb 4, 2015)

Look at the Southern long arm systems (Choy Lay Fut, Lama Pai/Haap Ga/Bak Hok Pai, Hung Kuen, etc... ) and there are plenty of "what was missing" prior to the Western influx on China. So Choi, Paau Choi, Gok Choi, Heun Choi, Kahp Choi, Pek Choi, Chin ji Choi, etc ... 

I suggest the same thing as a couple of others ... research before making statements that are probably not correct due to lack of exposure.


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## zzj (Feb 4, 2015)

In Chen Tai Chi we have the moves 'step up to seven stars' and 'left right double punch' which are uppercut and jab & cross respectively.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 4, 2015)

In Kenpo upper-cuts are just one thing you can do with upward motion, in fact, if our hand our high, we can even drop and upper-cut into center line. We can do a vertical forearm smash, again from high or low, or simply clip you in the chin with an upward elbow. There are so many thing we can do, it is hard to limit ourselves to what you consider your bread and butter.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 5, 2015)

I can't speak for Asian arts or even the CMA subset with any authority, but Wing Chun / Wing Tsun which I practice has a "Hooking" punch. It is different in execution than a Western Hook but a punch designed to 'hook' around an obstacle nonetheless, as well as a "Lifting punch" which is very similar to an uppercut done at close range. These are secondary strikes when a more direct straight punch / strike is not feasible, and not something used or practiced in "combinations" like Western Boxing would do with the Hook and Uppercut.


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## K-man (Jun 5, 2015)

Thinking about it, Goju doesn't have a closed fist hook but it does have the uppercut as evidenced in Seiunchin kata. It also has the upper, open hand, palm heel (teisho ate) to the chin in numerous kata. Instead of the normal hook we have fura uchi, a roundhouse strike with the knuckles and the back of the fist. And, of course, there are several open hand varieties of roundhouse strikes in ura shuto and haito uchi.

In answer to why is there no hook punch, it possibly wasn't deemed necessary.


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## VT_Vectis (Jun 6, 2015)

As has been said above; the pre gloved bare knuckle Pugilism didn't have the hook punch (from modern boxing distance, though it did have an close quarters hook from which the modern hook developed)and the actual mechanics of the uppercut were very different. So why should you expect other bare knuckle styles to employ something you'd recognise as the hook and uppercut?


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