# Ninjutsu History sources



## Don Roley (Mar 18, 2005)

The three sites are the only ones I reccomend at this time for those looking to read a bit about Ninjutsu history. There may be others, but I can't think of them at this time.

Of course I reccomend my own article on Koga ryu ninjutsu.

http://www.jigokudojo.com/koga

And the following is the best resource I have ever seen on Fujita Seiko- last person to claim to be the soke of the Koga ryu in Japan.

http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/

And if you want a non-practcioner's outlook, but well done with good sources try Alexei Gorbaylov's article on the realities of what the ninja were.

http://www.shinden.pp.fi/uraomote/98may.htm#ninj

Again, there may be more. Let me if you know of any. I will be sure to let you know what I think.

 :EG:


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## heretic888 (Mar 23, 2005)

I've found a few places that might be of interest. 

This link appears to be part of some tourism advertizement site for various locales in Japan, and includes a brief history of the Iga-shu "ninja".

This link is from a personal Japanese website that includes a more or less identical history of Iga.

The following is a translated excerpt from an interview with Hatsumi-soke in _Ninja/Ninpo Gaho_, dated 1964. In it, he gives his take on "ninja" history (which differs substantially from the erroneous claims Sojobow was attributing to Hatsumi several months back).

The following is an essay by Roy Ron. The final page, which concerns the different terms used for covert warriors in Japanese military history, is especially interesting.

From the same general site, the following is a collection of translated excerpts of the _Bansenshukai_, _Shoninki_, _Ninpiden_, and others. Very informative.

On Stephen Hayes' site, the following is an essay on Hattori Hanzo.

Lastly, the following are a series of historical essays by Peter Carlsson: Iga Ryu Ninjutsu, Iga No Ran, Oda Nobunaga's Invasion of Iga, Hattori Hanzo and Hattori Ryu, Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, and Momochi Sandayu and Momochi Ryu.

Laterz.  :asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 23, 2005)

some interesting reading there    thanks to both of you for the links


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## Don Roley (Mar 26, 2005)

The Japanese links suffer from being in Japanese. Plus they are a little more geared to attracting people to the area than an objective look at the history IMO.

The Peter Carlson and Ron Roy works kind of make me pause and I can't reccomend them. Carlson seems to take a source from Hatsumi when he says "according to XXX in 1457 YYY happened" and then say "YYY happened in 1457" and list Hatsumi as his source and that is _not the case._ I know Roy is good at Japanese, but I kind of wonder why he would say some of the things he said about Japanese history.

Hatsumi is good, if you know how to read him. When he writes for a Japanese audience, it is a bit confusing for non-Japanese. The names and such he uses sometimes are well known to his target audience, but unless you know them about as well it is easy to miss the signifigence.


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## heretic888 (Mar 28, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> The Japanese links suffer from being in Japanese. Plus they are a little more geared to attracting people to the area than an objective look at the history IMO.



What points, in particular, would you say are inaccurate in these links??



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> The Peter Carlson and Ron Roy works kind of make me pause and I can't reccomend them. Carlson seems to take a source from Hatsumi when he says "according to XXX in 1457 YYY happened" and then say "YYY happened in 1457" and list Hatsumi as his source and that is _not the case._ I know Roy is good at Japanese, but I kind of wonder why he would say some of the things he said about Japanese history.



Are there any points in particular that really stood out to you??



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Hatsumi is good, if you know how to read him. When he writes for a Japanese audience, it is a bit confusing for non-Japanese. The names and such he uses sometimes are well known to his target audience, but unless you know them about as well it is easy to miss the signifigence.



*nods* I see.

Laterz.


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2005)

First of all, I should correct myself and say that the Japanese links are in English, but the thinking is in Japanese. Most of us would not bother to say that Arizona was far from the big battles of the Civil war when writing about it's history, but Japanese may not know that if they read what we wrote. And most Japanese know more about America than Americans do about Japan. I think that anything written on the internet should be written with the outlook of writing for the lowest common denominator. Not only should you explain that Iga was in what is now Mie prefecture, AND say that it is a few days walk from Kyoto BUT you should also point out that Kyoto was the official capital for a lot of the time that the big wars were going on and that it's capture and control of the emporer was the dream of many warlords. I can find nothing wrong with the facts in the article, it is just too much information with not enough explination for those that can't even tell if a earthquake in Fukuoka can be felt by the folks in Chiba.

As for the Ron Roy stuff, here is an example of some of what makes me scratch my head.



> From the early seventeenth century until the middle of the nineteenth century (Meiji Restoration) Japanese society was locked in a rigid class structure that allowed very little or no mobility at all. That meant that members of a social group within a certain social class had no choice but to accept their place in society. In addition, there was a clear distinction between the ruling class--the samurai--and the other classes--peasants, craftsmen, and merchants. within each class as well, there was a certain hierarchy according to which members of the class had to act their social role with little opportunity to change their possession. This reality have produced strong identifying characteristics for each social class to which the individual had to conform. Outside these social classes, as they were designated by the ruling samurai elite, were the classless people and outcasts who were placed bellow everybody else. Ninjutsu, for the most part, was the fighting skills and methods practiced by a small number of families who belonged to the lower classes and outcasts, and only rarely by warriors belonging to the samurai elite. Consequently, ninjutsu since the Edo period has been identified as different than the noble traditions of the samurai, and those practicing it were usually regarded by the rest of society as lowly people. In other words, ninjutsu was anything but conformity to the pre defined social rules. As such, it could have never received a seal of approval as a recognized martial tradition, not even when those samurai were actually employing warriors proficient in ninjutsu.



Errr, folks..... The Edo period was a time when the wars had ended and the ninja had basically started to turn to being Metsuke and taking other jobs. So why is the above so centered on the social status of them after their main period of work was over? The social status of the age of wars would ahve been a much better reference and those days were very, very different from the stable Edo period. The ninja of the Edo period were pretty much from the samurai class because their forefathers had become samurai during the age of wars.

Peter Carlson- I actually got a message from someone saying that he doubted that Carlson actually intended his stuff to be used as the end- all of information. Somehow, that only makes me a little angry. If you do not know _for a fact_ something, it seems almost criminal to me to write it up in an article and put it on the internet where it can be used as a reference source and quoted. If you don't really know, don't say anything. There is nothing wrong in not knowing something as long as you know that you don't know it. It is when we think we know something that is not true that the problems happen. I know I do not know how to perform surgery. But I don't try to use scapels on other people because I know my limitations. What if someone read some bad advice on the internet and tried to cut someone up thinking that they knew all they needed to know about surgery? Would you really accept the explination of the person who posted the "how to do surgery" article on the internet when he said, "I was only trying to help people to the best of my knowledge"? Obvioulsy, this is an extreme example to illustrate how not saying anything is better than just doing your best but failing.

Take a look at the Koga ryu article for just one example of what I am talking about. According to Carlson, Fujita led combat units in the jungle during the war. Can you find any mention of that in the articles I listed? That is just one example. I know a bit more about the subject than Carlson and I would never write what he did. I am not saying what Fujita did during the war, but leading units in the jungle is not one of them.

Sorry for the rant, but rather than try to build up a large list of things we can brag about us knowing, I would rather have us know a far less amount of stuff that is actual fact and not conjecture and mistakes.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 30, 2005)

I see these aforementioned texts as an example of the principle "ban sen shu kai"...

This is a few quotes from my copy of the book "Hiden Ninja Submission":

"Before the age of unity in Japan Ninpo developed in the native land of ninja. Techniques of trespassing, techniques of hiding. Neither sports nor budo, this technique of fighting for survival is resurrected from the darkness of history."

"The martial art which Mr. Hatsumi inherited does not put heavy emphasis on the importance of the genealogy. Because his art is not the kind of art which can trace back it's origin; rather, it is understood that the martial art emerged gradually out of cultural exchanges which took place among many different groups of people."

"The pedigrees owned by Mr. Hatsumi do not show a clear lineage to the early periods. It should therefore be understood that they are to show the complexity of the history of the martial art, and should only be regarded as model cases."

"The history of the nine ryu which were fostered in Iga and Kumano, known as very crucial spots in Japanese history, had been compiled by Takamatsu Toshitsugu and was passed to Mr. Hatsumi. When the author of this article was struck with an awe about the history of the martial art and expressed the feelings to Mr. Hatsumi, he replied "to be honest with you, we don't know much about the things that happened in ancient times". The following commentaries should therefore be read in mind with what Mr. Hatsumi said."

While we are at it, were Momochi Sandayu and Fujibayashi Nagato really the same person? And was Ichikawa Goemon caught and killed, and if so, with his three-year old son in his arms, or did he escape?


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## DuckofDeath (Mar 31, 2005)

Erudite discussion of the Gorbylyov article:

http://www.frankdux.com/duxforum/viewthread.php?tid=1534


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## Kizaru (Mar 31, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> . ... Not only should you explain that Iga was in what is now Mie prefecture, AND say that it is a few days walk from Kyoto BUT you should also point out that Kyoto was the official capital for a lot of the time that the big wars were going on and that it's capture and control of the emporer was the dream of many warlords. ... not enough explination for those that can't even tell if a earthquake in Fukuoka can be felt by the folks in Chiba.


Don, which way to Dewa Sanzan from here?!?! Or better yet, Kabuki cho???

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Don, which way to Dewa Sanzan from here?!?! Or better yet, Kabuki cho???
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:



Gee, did anyone else find that funny?

Living in Japan and knowing what I know, I find it funny. But I feel a lot of people who are not here do not get the joke and feel left out. Instead of feeling alienated, they would probably prefer to go to another board where they do know what is going on and feel more welcome.

I seem to remember asking someone _as a friend_ to stop with jokes and such that few outside of us understood. I guess that is not enough. Perhaps if I closed my account here at martialtalk the jokes would stop. I don't see any other way to fill the responsibilities I accepted when I joined the moderator team.


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## MisterMike (Apr 2, 2005)

I'm just going to put some smileys here to "look like" I got it in hopes Don doesn't leave.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:


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## Shogun (Apr 2, 2005)

:iws: ....


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## heretic888 (Sep 14, 2005)

I have come across two additional sources in my readings:

"Concerning _shinobi no mono_, they are said to be from Iga and Koga and went freely into enemy castles secretly. They saw hidden things and were considered allies. Strategists call them _kagimono hiki_." 
- Nochi Kagami

"Given the complexity of late medieval class relations, it is not entirely surprising that the Warring States period witnessed the emergence of some powerful large _ikki_ organizations that incorporated people from different social classes. During the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, these larger _ikki_ organizations sometimes included both the _ikki_ of _kokujin_ lords (samurai in the full sense) and those of villagers (_dogo_ and lesser farmers) when they tried to set limits to the warring provincial powers. The most famous example of this kind of comprehensive _ikki_ is probably the _ikki_ of Yamashiro Province. In December 1485, thirty-six _kokujin_ lords of the Yamashiro Province and 'peasants of all the province' gathered for a meeting during which they attempted to drive out the troops of the two _shugo daimyo_, which had been battling over the region. The _ikki_ demanded the immediate evacuation of all the _shugo daimyo_ troops from the province, proclaiming the area to be self-governing. Although the leadership of the _ikki_ was in the hands of the allied _kokujin_ samurai lords, the _so_ organizations of the villages throughout the province also palyed a critical role in sustaining it. Miura Hiroyuki once called the Yamashiro _ikki_ 'the people's parliament of the Warring States period.' Despite its great reputation in Japanese history, the Yamashiro _ikki_ was far from an isolated case. It is known, for example, that Iga Province in the mid-sixteenth century was governed by a federation of local _so_ villages consisting of _kokujin_ and _dogo_. The Iga federation was administered by ten magistrates, but important matters were discussed at meetings of the entire membership of the _ikki_." 
- Eiko Ikegami, The Taming of the Samurai: Honorific Individualism and the Making of Modern Japan

Laterz.  :asian:


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## heretic888 (Sep 14, 2005)

And one more:

"Sasama distinguishes between the expert _shinobi_, who passed on their traditions to their descendents, of which the _Iga-shu_ are the best example, and others who were no more than bandits, hired temporarily as _kancho_. He adds that _shinobi_ were time and again misunderstood and mistrusted by their own allies, and that _shinobi_ techniques were perceived as no more than theft. However, when taken along with an army _shinobi_ were treated as personal attendants serving in an expert occupation. Finally, as the Tokugawa had rules for just about everything in life, it is not surprising to find regulations covering the use of such persons. In 1649, in the _bakufu's_ laws for military service, only those of 10,000 _koku_ and above were allowed to be accompanied by _shinobi_ when they went to war."
- Stephen Turnbull, The Lone Samurai and the Martial Arts


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## heretic888 (Nov 7, 2005)

This is a long one:

"In the sixteenth century, other regional communes, although smaller in scope, managed to last for several decades. One example was Oyamato. In this small region in Ise Province, in the upper Kumozu River basin, the inhabitants signed two documents in 1494. The first, signed by 350 heads of peasant families in the villages, was a five-article constitution laying out principles concerning rural life, such as 'You must not rob from others their right to cultivate the land: you must not steal.' In the second document, written a month later, forty-six _jizamurai_ of the Oyamato region formed a collective to ensure power in the region: 'If anyone acts badly, inside or outside Oyamato, he will be judged and sentenced.' The warriors' league seized administrative and judicial control, and its authority was based on the charter signed by the 350 peasants. The two social groups had formed a united front. Although the low-ranking warriors had their own system of cooperation, they had to respect the agreement with the peasants, without which the region's autonomy could be challenged, as it had been in the Yamashiro commune several years earlier. Oyamato, once an estate, now became an autonomous society, independent of outside hierarchical control, with a double structure: the assembly of the forty-six low-ranking warriors and the general peasant assembly. The two groups had a relationship of power and domination, but without either a _suzerain_ or absolute power. 

The regional commune in Iga Province seems to have been a sort of geographic extension of Oyamato's political and social structure. Its twelve-article constitution was written around 1560. The communities of the Iga River basin had been defending themselves since around the beginning of the sixteenth century. The neighboring region of Koga in Omi, similarly organized, had no fewer than 30 fortification works. In Iga, local power was exercised by the _jizamurai_, sixty-six of whom had taken vows. Entrenched in their small fortresses, they collectively administered the territory and made laws. Talks were usually held in a Buddhist temple, the _Heirakuji_, but the basis of the regional commune was a federation of village communes, which wrote a 'constitution.' The following are some excerpts: 

'In keeping with the union sworn by the members of the league, any attempt by foreign troops to invade the province will be repelled. If an alert is signaled by the watchmen who are guarding the fortified passes, the inhabitants must sound the alarm in each village and immediately go on alert. In this case, food and arms must be contributed and the fortified positions along the routes defended without a loss of strength. Men between the ages of seventeen and fifty will be mobilized. If the campaign lasts a long time, the men will work in shifts. In each place, captains will be designated among the warriors, and the people of the communes must obey them. In the temples and monasteries in the region, the older monks will pray for the prosperity of the country while the younger monks will go to fight. The text of the vows, in which the vassals of the _samurai_ in the communes swore to obey their master and follow him to the end, whatever the fate of the _ikki_, will be posted in all villages.... 

Those mobilized peasants --- who are particularly successful and able to seize an enemy position on the border will be rewarded with the status of _samurai_. Anyone who is persuaded to enter into secret relations with foreign armies and to help them penetrate the province will be arrested immediately by the league. The inheritance of the traitor in question will be confiscated, his name struck from the registers, and his property consigned to the temple. Revealing the communes' situation to the enemy is considered a similar crime, and the punishment will be the same as that as that for traitors: death with public exhibition of the head.... 

The affairs of Iga having been well settled, we now see fit to unite our forces with those of Koga. Therefore, common assemblies between the two parties will held outside at the border between the two countries. Thus is it decreed and signed.' 

The main concerns of the leaders of the league of communes in Iga were defense and war. The province was at war with the Miyoshi and with small-scale lords in neighboring Yamato Province. In Iga, the fighting had been constant, it seems, since the late thirteenth century. In the Kuroda estate, for example, studied in detail by Ishimoda Sho, banditry was endemic, and _akuto_ attacked the _Todaiji_ monastery in the late _Kamakura_ period. During the civil war of the fourteenth century, local _samurai_ formed regional alliances (_gunnai ichizoku_), which were transformed into organizations that in the sixteenth century assumed all local powers. The strength of the regional commune was in the military leadership of the peasants by low-ranking warriors. Although the social difference between the former and the latter was clear, it was it was not insurmountable, for the Iga commune also promoted heroic fighters. 

The Iga league of communes lasted much longer than did the one in neighboring Yamashiro Province. The reason was probably the particular configuration of the area, a mountain basin relatively distant from the major routes. Oda Nobunaga finally put an end to the league by invading the province with his troops in 1581. Despite the difficulty of conquering a population that was completely mobilized for war and had very effective guerrilla fighters, Nobunaga and his artillery crushed the 'people of Iga' with cannon fire and dismantled all their small forts. The indomitable survivors kept up a sporadic guerrilla resistance for several years, but Tokugawa Ieyasu finally was victorious when he made them specialized auxiliaries in the lower echelons of his _bakufu_ army. The structure of the regional communes in Oyamato, Iga, and Koga was apparently both horizontal and vertical. At the local level, _jizamurai_ and peasants were organized within the community framework of the village. These communes were linked to other, similar ones to form a federation. But the _jizamurai_ also provided hierarchical collective control of the region as a whole. These forms of organization were reminiscent of the 'valley communities' of the Swiss Waldstetten in the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries. The pact of 1291, considered to be the founding act of Switzerland, was a 'peace charter' among local communes to prevent outside aggression, similar to the ultimatum made by the Yamashiro rebels to the Hatakeyama armies in 1485 and the twelve-point charter of the Iga commune around 1560. Regional communes of various sizes existed for different periods of time in Kai, Omi, Settsu, Izuni, Tanba, and other provinces. The existence of these federations on the scale of a region or province kept any centralized power from controlling the provinces of central Japan."

- Pierre Francois Souyri, The World Turned Upside Down: Medieval Japanese Society


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## heretic888 (Nov 7, 2005)

Another website of possible interest:

Iga Ninja - 49 True Stories

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Nov 8, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> And if you want a non-practcioner's outlook, but well done with good sources try Alexei Gorbaylov's article on the realities of what the ninja were.
> 
> http://www.shinden.pp.fi/uraomote/98may.htm#ninj


 
Don,

The article you linked ("Ninjutsu History is to be Reconsidered") is only part of the original article. The full article, which was originally published in _Kempo_ magazine (N4/96), goes into much more detail about the Hattori family (the author posits that _ninjutsu_ as we know it was originally developed by the Hattori) as well as the general situation in Iga and Koga:  

"Unknown Ninjutsu"

Laterz.


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## heretic888 (Nov 9, 2005)

The following article is by Morten Oxenboell, published in the Volume 60, Number 2, Summer 2005 issue of an anthropological journal called _Monumenta Nipponica_:

"Images of Akuto"

It goes in detail about events that took place in Iga Province's _Kuroda no sho_ during the late 13th to early 14th centuries, involving groups of individuals that the _Todaiji_ authorities referred to as _akuto_.

Note: This article may not be available to everyone because it is from an online academic journal that is generally only accessible via college universities. It can be accessed through the Project MUSE database.

Laterz.


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