# Wing Chun and mma.



## Martial D (Mar 28, 2018)

So for the past few months I've been focusing on Wing Chun, to the exclusion of all else. But rather than classical Wing Chun, what I am trying to do is shuck the jive so to speak and see exactly how sharp I can make this tool based on what I know and my sparring/fighting experience. 

Anyway, tonight I went and talked to the owner/head instructor of a new mma gym that just opened in my area, and he agreed to help me do just that. I will start training there tomorrow evening.

Totally stoked to do this.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 29, 2018)

Be sure to keep us updated on your experience.


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## KPM (Mar 29, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So for the past few months I've been focusing on Wing Chun, to the exclusion of all else. But rather than classical Wing Chun, what I am trying to do is shuck the jive so to speak and see exactly how sharp I can make this tool based on what I know and my sparring/fighting experience.
> 
> Anyway, tonight I went and talked to the owner/head instructor of a new mma gym that just opened in my area, and he agreed to help me do just that. I will start training there tomorrow evening.
> 
> Totally stoked to do this.



Sounds good!  Make some video of the result if you can!  I'm guessing what you come up with when you "shuck the jive" will be a form of "Wing Chun Boxing."


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## Martial D (Mar 29, 2018)

KPM said:


> Sounds good!  Make some video of the result if you can!  I'm guessing what you come up with when you "shuck the jive" will be a form of "Wing Chun Boxing."


Maybe submission wing chun kickboxing? 

I'll keep this updated


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## DanT (Mar 29, 2018)

I did the same thing a while back at a local MMA gym. I just sparred everyday for months.


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## DaveB (Mar 29, 2018)

Great plan... The core skills of fighting are totally independent of fighting style so any regular combat practice with good variety should "sharpen" the sword!

Good luck and I look forward to hearing about your progress.


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## DaveB (Mar 29, 2018)

DanT said:


> I did the same thing a while back at a local MMA gym. I just sparred everyday for months.


How did you find it Dan?

Any observations about the challenges, differences, strengths or weaknesses of your style in that arena??


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## Martial D (Mar 29, 2018)

DanT said:


> I did the same thing a while back at a local MMA gym. I just sparred everyday for months.


What Dave said.


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## DanT (Mar 29, 2018)

DaveB said:


> How did you find it Dan?
> 
> Any observations about the challenges, differences, strengths or weaknesses of your style in that arena??


It was engaging. It was challenging at times, especially against some of the semi-pro fighters transitioning to pro. They were surprised that I (a nearly pure CMA person) could hold my own in the cage. They were all talented, hard working, and very kind people. I only encountered 3-4 meatheads, and even they were pretty nice.

The experience encouraged me to really let go much of the traditional footwork and adopt a more freestyle approach. I gave them a lot of unorthodox techniques that they had trouble dealing with (Shaolin kicks and striking combinations). I was impressed with how literal you can apply some of the Shaolin combinations I know, funky stances and all.

The experience helped me adjust my Wing Chun slightly further than my Sifu adjusted it. I'm lucky to have a Sifu who already made many adjustments to make the system effective for the modern fighter, such as changing strategies, modifying almost all the techniques, adjusting the stances, adding footwork, etc.

Although Shaolin has a decent grappling system in it, Jiu Jitsu is like chess while Shaolin grappling is more like checkers: it's all BJJ white belt stuff. I learned stuff on the ground that I continue to practice.


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## Martial D (Mar 29, 2018)

Well, off I go. I feel like I might be recovering well into tomorrow.


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## Martial D (Mar 29, 2018)

That was really amazing. Just did kickboxing drills for an hour followed by a half hour of grappling (guard drills tonight). Didn't really do much crossover work with Wing Chun, although I found myself using it a fair bit from my guard to some effect, which was kind of surprising.


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## drop bear (Mar 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That was really amazing. Just did kickboxing drills for an hour followed by a half hour of grappling (guard drills tonight). Didn't really do much crossover work with Wing Chun, although I found myself using it a fair bit from my guard to some effect, which was kind of surprising.



The concepts will be pretty similar.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Just did kickboxing drills for an hour followed by a half hour of grappling (guard drills tonight).


Do you train throwing skill too? Something is missing between striking and ground skill.

striking -> throwing -> ground skill


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## Martial D (Mar 30, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you train throwing skill too? Something is missing between striking and ground skill.
> 
> striking -> throwing -> ground skill



Didn't work on any throws last night no. There were a couple beginners in the class, my wife included(I dragged her along for her first ever martial arts class), and there was only 5 of us in total. Most of the class was fundamentals.


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## DaveB (Mar 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That was really amazing. Just did kickboxing drills for an hour followed by a half hour of grappling (guard drills tonight). Didn't really do much crossover work with Wing Chun, although I found myself using it a fair bit from my guard to some effect, which was kind of surprising.


I've always found chi-sao skills extremely effective in grappling.

Where I've fallen down with no grappling training is not knowing how to win (apply chokes etc) or how to move on the ground (grappling equivalent of footwork).


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## Martial D (Apr 5, 2018)

Well I have to say this is going splendidly. 

Firstly, I'm sore pretty much all the time. The intensity of this training is certainly a few notches above what I'm used to. Our instructor is an ex pro and he doesn't mess around with regards to pushing it. We did this frontkick drill last night that went on for about 3 decades(at least it seemed that way)  that involved squats burpees and around 500 kicks. 

Walking sucks today. 

But the stuff I'm learning is awesome. Just the transitioning between striking and grappling, ground striking techniques..it's all very conducive to my WC! Its amazing how doing one thing can help you understand another.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Well I have to say this is going splendidly.
> 
> Firstly, I'm sore pretty much all the time. The intensity of this training is certainly a few notches above what I'm used to. Our instructor is an ex pro and he doesn't mess around with regards to pushing it. We did this frontkick drill last night that went on for about 3 decades(at least it seemed that way)  that involved squats burpees and around 500 kicks.
> 
> ...



Excellent. As you go along, keep us updated on what aspects of your WC work for you in MMA sparring and what new insights you gain on your WC application from your new experiences.


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## Martial D (Apr 5, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Excellent. As you go along, keep us updated on what aspects of your WC work for you in MMA sparring and what new insights you gain on your WC application from your new experiences.



Well, so far I've been surprised at how much it helps for ground striking. Not so much the straight punch but for controlling the middle and snaking shots between limbs. In the standup I find myself naturally reverting to WC after a slip or a parry in a way that has been catching people off guard, like, getting the outside gate.

For the most part I have been trying to just soak in as much kickboxing technique as I can while trying to leave my WC at the door, and I later work it into my daily WC routine. It's weird how after only a week I'm seeing things, with regards to WC, that I have never seen or understood before.

I am more convinced than ever that there was a WC at some point that was a lot more dangerous than what we know as WC today. There are just too many hidden gold nuggets for that to not be the case.


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## TMA17 (Apr 5, 2018)

Awesome!  Are you training in Muay Thai and BJJ?


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## Martial D (Apr 5, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Awesome!  Are you training in Muay Thai and BJJ?


Dutch style Mui Thai and submission wrestling. Basically yes, just tuned more to mma.


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## Martial D (Apr 5, 2018)

Also, f#ck crunch and punch drills. Seriously.

#gonnadie


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## Nobody Important (Apr 6, 2018)

Isn't it amazing how things flower when they're not limited by lack of pressure, range, methodology and dogma?  Welcome to the wider world Martial D. As you continue lifting the veil placed over Wing Chun by others, more and more will come to light. Best of luck in your training.


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## DaveB (Apr 11, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I am more convinced than ever that there was a WC at some point that was a lot more dangerous than what we know as WC today. There are just too many hidden gold nuggets for that to not be the case.



I'd put money on the fact that there was never a more dangerous version,  just people who understand fighting and thus better understood how to use the wing chun they had.


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## Martial D (Apr 11, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I'd put money on the fact that there was never a more dangerous version,  just people who understand fighting and thus better understood how to use the wing chun they had.


Maybe...maybe.

But yet we understand fighting now, the science of it, better than any other time in (known) history.

I think something was lost over time, possibly in the training methods. Something I am doing my damnedest to reattain.

Anyway, on another note I had to skip training last night as I messed up my toes kicking a pad monday (Lol@me)


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## drop bear (Apr 11, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Maybe...maybe.
> 
> But yet we understand fighting now, the science of it, better than any other time in (known) history.
> 
> ...



If you can wear wrestling shoes get some. That way you could jits or something with hurty toe.


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## Martial D (Apr 11, 2018)

Made some sort of breakthough tonight. I guess my body is adapting to these new ranges and types of movements? At the end of class I wasn't tired. Soaked with sweat sure, like every time, but not tired. Ended up just me and the teacher for the jitz afterword, and after that we ended up  stand up sparring for a couple rounds. Sparring with a(n) (ex)pro fighter is another world man, but I surprised him with a few things he hadn't ever seen before. As an example after slipping a cross(he's ortho and im south) I caught him with a lop/punch to the outside gate. I didn't try to do it, it just sort of happened during the flow.  But it worked. 

Excellent


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## DaveB (Apr 12, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Maybe...maybe.
> 
> But yet we understand fighting now, the science of it, better than any other time in (known) history.
> 
> ...



Yes, "we" understand fighting, but do "they" understand fighting. 

It's the age old TMA issue. Without open competition and/or a culture of saving face there's not enough opportunity for many folks to learn what they don't know.


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## Martial D (Apr 17, 2018)

So last night we did this entry drill that was parry, circle parrying hand inward to grab bicep as you step in and grab the trap with other hand. This gives you arm control and puts you in position to knee to the body.
I smiled when he demoed it. After a minute, he asks if I've done this before, as I seemed to have it down right away.

Sort of.

So i say "pak sau, jum sau,huen sau, lop sau."

He looked at me funny.


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## TMA17 (Apr 17, 2018)

I’ve spent the last 2 weeks at an MMA gym.  The instructor blends Karate, Muay Thai, BJJ, and boxing into his curriculum.  He’s heavy on sparring and i have to say that’s the only way you really learn how to fight against trained opponents and learn what works and doesn’t work.  Rotation against everyone there is good too bc you get variety.  

He likes karate blocks for when you can’t get out of the way.  I haven’t attended any of the BJJ classes yet.  I’ve never been interested in ground stuff but it’s so effective.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 17, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I’ve never been interested in ground stuff but it’s so effective.


It's not that hard to have interest in ground game. 

1. Obtain your opponent's leading leg.
2. Sweep/hook his other leg and take him down,
3. Drop your knee into his groin, or twist his leg, sit on his back, and apply knee bar.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I’ve spent the last 2 weeks at an MMA gym.  The instructor blends Karate, Muay Thai, BJJ, and boxing into his curriculum.  He’s heavy on sparring and i have to say that’s the only way you really learn how to fight against trained opponents and learn what works and doesn’t work.  Rotation against everyone there is good too bc you get variety.
> 
> He likes karate blocks for when you can’t get out of the way.  I haven’t attended any of the BJJ classes yet.  I’ve never been interested in ground stuff but it’s so effective.



As i keep saying. You wont like it untill you see results.


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## TMA17 (Apr 17, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not that hard to have interest in ground game.
> 
> 1. Obtain your opponent's leading leg.
> 2. Sweep/hook his other leg and take him down,
> 3. Drop your knee into his groin, or twist his leg, sit on his back, and apply knee bar.



I don't know anything about ground fighting.  May take a beginner BJJ class next week to mix it up.


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## TMA17 (Apr 18, 2018)

....you always get that one guy that too that wants to really go at it which forces you to adapt to their intensity level and hopefully doesn’t get out of control lol.  There is a lot of feeling out with sparring.


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## Martial D (Apr 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> ....you always get that one guy that too that wants to really go at it which forces you to adapt to their intensity level and hopefully doesn’t get out of control lol.  There is a lot of feeling out with sparring.


For me that guy is a 53 year oldex pro Mt guy. He says he isn't going full out, but the purple bruises on my ribs tell another tale.


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## TMA17 (Apr 18, 2018)

Funny bc the guy where I am going is probably mid 50’s too if I had to guess. But he was not a pro.  Just an old bruiser lol.


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## drop bear (Apr 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> ....you always get that one guy that too that wants to really go at it which forces you to adapt to their intensity level and hopefully doesn’t get out of control lol.  There is a lot of feeling out with sparring.



You need that to get a realistic assesment of what is high percentage and what isn't.

That is where hand trapping for example almost goes out the window. Exept for concepts like clinch work or where they fence.

It is the new guys who go full out that i gain a lot of resource from because in theory my martial arts should be better than theirs.

But that depends on what I have been spending my time developing.I have been manhandled by strong agressive guys with no martial arts. Mostly due to where I put my priorities.


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## TMA17 (Apr 18, 2018)

I think you’d have to be very fast and be fighting someme slow for trapping to even work when I think about it.  I can’t apply trapping in the situations I’ve been in.  If I tried it I think I’d get taken to the ground with these guys bc they all know BJJ.  So I maintain distance as much as possible.


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## drop bear (Apr 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I think you’d have to be very fast and be fighting someme slow for trapping to even work when I think about it.  I can’t apply trapping in the situations I’ve been in.  If I tried it I think I’d get taken to the ground with these guys bc they all know BJJ.  So I maintain distance as much as possible.



OK. If they John Jones you. In which I mean they fence a hand out in to your face and leave it there. You can hand trap.

Which will at least be a cool trick


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## Martial D (Apr 18, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I think you’d have to be very fast and be fighting someme slow for trapping to even work when I think about it.  I can’t apply trapping in the situations I’ve been in.  If I tried it I think I’d get taken to the ground with these guys bc they all know BJJ.  So I maintain distance as much as possible.



I've found I can get my trapping game going sometimes off the slip if the other guy wants to crowd me.  It's always a short game though, like to set up or as part of a combo. It doesn't look anything like my sifus' trapping that's for sure.


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## DaveB (Apr 19, 2018)

I've always found the important skill to get to use trapping was bridging which it's self is a function of footwork and timing.


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## Martial D (Apr 19, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I've always found the important skill to get to use trapping was bridging which it's self is a function of footwork and timing.



Ive found bridging (the wc way)becomes less of a thing once you add long range tools. You will usually end up at trapping range whether you like it or not, forcing it can hurt.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 19, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So for the past few months I've been focusing on Wing Chun, to the exclusion of all else. But rather than classical Wing Chun, what I am trying to do is shuck the jive so to speak and see exactly how sharp I can make this tool based on what I know and my sparring/fighting experience.
> 
> Anyway, tonight I went and talked to the owner/head instructor of a new mma gym that just opened in my area, and he agreed to help me do just that. I will start training there tomorrow evening.
> 
> Totally stoked to do this.



I can share and understand your excitement on this. Recently I started attending a class on Monday nights in a place called the Chinese Martial Arts Academy. They have a wide variety of classes there (wushu, Jeet Kune Do, kickboxing), but on Mondays they let people who might have studied other styles come in and spar with whatever style they know.

It has been quite an eye-opener. The only sparring I did before this involved punching and entry for takedowns. Needless to say, this means I have found I am struggling to work my way around certain kicks. Hell, last Monday I walked RIGHT INTO a front push kick! However, I have a super analytical mind, so what I do is go home and write up all the different things I have problems with, think about solutions, and then test them out until I get something that works.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Glad you've had a good experience bro! Keep it up and defo keep us updated please. I love wing chch but I remember the first time I trained in mma, really opens your eyes!


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## Martial D (Apr 20, 2018)

5 mins seems like a really short amount of time if you need to, say, get ready to go somewhere or maybe take a dump. It's a commercial break during your favourite show. It's nothing really.

Until it's a round of grappling sparring. Then it's all the time from the big bang until robots rule the Earth.


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## Martial D (Apr 24, 2018)

Instructor: do this drill, then give me 100 punches.

Me: finishes drill, throws 100 chain punches into the mits of a slightly confused partner. Waits for everyone else to finish.

Instructor:cheater.


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> 5 mins seems like a really short amount of time if you need to, say, get ready to go somewhere or maybe take a dump. It's a commercial break during your favourite show. It's nothing really.
> 
> Until it's a round of grappling sparring. Then it's all the time from the big bang until robots rule the Earth.



Yeah. I have mentioned this when people tell me about training a self defence mindset.

And I am like if you haven't actually done the hard yards, five minutes of work and that mindset evaporates and all you want to do is quit. 

Screaming or meditation or whatever the heck people have been doing. Doesn't help.


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## Martial D (Apr 25, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I have mentioned this when people tell me about training a self defence mindset.
> 
> And I am like if you haven't actually done the hard yards, five minutes of work and that mindset evaporates and all you want to do is quit.
> 
> Screaming or meditation or whatever the heck people have been doing. Doesn't help.



Just got back from an amazing session where a whole bunch of **** clicked. Tonight it was 2 back to back 3 min rounds, with a freaking beast blue belt that weighs  60 pounds more than me.  I never appreciated being able to breath so much in my life as when that second round ended.


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## Martial D (Apr 30, 2018)

So I started 1 month ago tonight. I must say the improvements to my game have been massive, both in WC and fighting in general, but the one thing that really stands out is my cardio. I can go hard the whole time without feeling dead with an empty tank now, where at first I could barely move after class(and I would have said I was in good shape with good cardio before I started this). 

Imo the ability to keep going and do the hard rounds is as valuable or more valuable than any technique or techniques.


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## DaveB (May 1, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So I started 1 month ago tonight. I must say the improvements to my game have been massive, both in WC and fighting in general, but the one thing that really stands out is my cardio. I can go hard the whole time without feeling dead with an empty tank now, where at first I could barely move after class(and I would have said I was in good shape with good cardio before I started this).
> 
> Imo the ability to keep going and do the hard rounds is as valuable or more valuable than any technique or techniques.


This is a big part of my long-standing point, that training is a separate thing from a fighting style and the thing that makes the biggest difference. 

If you think, move and hit faster than your opponent, if you spot openings or read incoming attacks better, you will be the better fighter.

Chi sau and forms are just training exercises that can be over or under emphasised, just like cardio or strength training. The only real problem with TMA schools in general is training culture. The schools that match their training to their goals are the proof of this.


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## drop bear (May 2, 2018)

DaveB said:


> This is a big part of my long-standing point, that training is a separate thing from a fighting style and the thing that makes the biggest difference.
> 
> If you think, move and hit faster than your opponent, if you spot openings or read incoming attacks better, you will be the better fighter.
> 
> Chi sau and forms are just training exercises that can be over or under emphasised, just like cardio or strength training. The only real problem with TMA schools in general is training culture. The schools that match their training to their goals are the proof of this.



Yeah. not really. If you do rubbish then being a fit strong monster will only take you so far.

You cant push a cart with square wheels.


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## drop bear (May 2, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. not really. If you do rubbish then being a fit strong monster will only take you so far.
> 
> You cant push a cart with square wheels.



Let me expand on this.

MMA especially, due to its nature, is about efficiency. Because the active nature of the sport and the long round times and the importance of having gas in the tank at the time you need to use it. Opperating with the best (or most efficient) system is increadably important.

So getting strong is vital. But the other guy will be strong so it is not an advatage. It is the ability to have the maximum amount of athletic ability available at the right time.

This means if in your training you have mucked about with a system that is not optimal. You are wasting resources you may need.

This might be as simple as say doing kata. If it doesn't transfer the skills needed as efficiently as say sparring. When you fight a guy you then have to overcome that with effort. You are giving up advantages.

The more advantages you give up. The more of a mountain you have to climb.

From a purely MMA perspective. If you get tired, And become imobile or start leaning up against the cage wall. The other guy can force you to constantly engage. This makes you more tired and opens you up to being placed in a position of greater disadvantage which forces you to work harder, making you more tired. 

Eventually you health meter runs out and you get finished.

There are purely systems based advantages and disadvantages. And there is no getting around that.


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## drop bear (May 2, 2018)




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## macher (May 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Let me expand on this.
> 
> MMA especially, due to its nature, is about efficiency. Because the active nature of the sport and the long round times and the importance of having gas in the tank at the time you need to use it. Opperating with the best (or most efficient) system is increadably important.
> 
> ...



MMA is a great way to test your martial art to see it’s effectiveness.


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## DaveB (May 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Let me expand on this.
> 
> MMA especially, due to its nature, is about efficiency. Because the active nature of the sport and the long round times and the importance of having gas in the tank at the time you need to use it. Opperating with the best (or most efficient) system is increadably important.
> 
> ...



You say that you are talking about system based advantages but your example is doing kata, a training exercise. 

This is the big problem with this discussion: we go to class and we "do" Martial arts, and think that the training is the art. It's not.

As I mentioned before, kata is a training tool that can be over-emphasised, under-emphasised or ignored altogether and what guides those choices are your aims and environment. 

Kata is a solo exercise. There's no great need to do it when you have training partners. It's benefits are a totally different area of training to sparring, so doing kata to the detriment of sparring is about poorly constructed training programs, especially if your aim is ring fighting. It is nothing to do with the fighting style. 

I have encountered no studies of the comparative efficiency levels of different martial arts. In fact I would question what exactly you're referring to when you claim efficiency or inefficiency of this or that martial art?

Also since MMA is about mixing martial arts, surely the point would be to replace in-system weaknesses with bits from other systems just as happens with boxing, wrestling etc?


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## macher (May 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> You say that you are talking about system based advantages but your example is doing kata, a training exercise.
> 
> This is the big problem with this discussion: we go to class and we "do" Martial arts, and think that the training is the art. It's not.
> 
> ...



This is an example from doing some research. Okinawan Karate was pretty much individual training. For instance maybe a farmer trained his sons. Okinawan Karate purpose was to fight / defend. I’m pretty sure in this case there wasn’t much kata if any. Most likely pure application.


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## drop bear (May 3, 2018)

DaveB said:


> You say that you are talking about system based advantages but your example is doing kata, a training exercise.
> 
> This is the big problem with this discussion: we go to class and we "do" Martial arts, and think that the training is the art. It's not.
> 
> ...



Except there are arts that do kata and don't spar. There are arts that spar and don't do kata.

The training is the art.

But OK let's say it isn't. Let's make an art a system of techniques that can be trained in any manner.

You still are going to have a list of techniques that are better than another list. Again this is where efficiency comes in. Regardless of how you train. What you focus on. If you have an inefficient list you have to work harder to be successful.

And by the way there really should be no fundamental difference between the benefits of kata for ring or kata for street. It will either help you fight. Or it won't. 

Of course MMA does have its own study. They are called MMA fights. We can tell what systems are more efficient. Because they are more successful for a wider range of people.

And yes the point of MMA is to introduce better systems from other arts.


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## Martial D (May 3, 2018)

Simultaneous attack and defense! 

Ok, first of all, I train MMA with a white belt mentality. I work what I train there, and leave my existing skills at the door FOR THE MOST PART.

Tonight was sparring night, like every Thursday, but tonight was different. The Dutch kickboxing way of doing things, throwing, standing, moving, defending, etc is part of my muscle memory now. I don't need to think about how to move around attacks, where to step, when to throw, how to defend this or that. So anyway, I got into a good flow of light sparring with my usual partner, this beast of a man who has years and years in this style. 

Anyway, tonight was different because Wing Chun started to happen. Not the usual fare of how I use it in the clinch, but at boxing range. Three times instead of the usual parry of the jab with my (southpaw) forward hand, I was able to come around it and clear it with a tansau from the outside in while shifting in with a stiff jab to the totally undefended outside line.  No thought, just reaction. At full speed.

Progress.


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## drop bear (May 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Simultaneous attack and defense!
> 
> Ok, first of all, I train MMA with a white belt mentality. I work what I train there, and leave my existing skills at the door FOR THE MOST PART.
> 
> ...



Hitting the right range?


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## Poppity (May 4, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Simultaneous attack and defense!
> 
> Ok, first of all, I train MMA with a white belt mentality. I work what I train there, and leave my existing skills at the door FOR THE MOST PART.
> 
> ...




Kudos to you, because applying wing chun when sparring is hard and in many ways is a completely different skill set to the Chi Sau and the drilling.  Applying angling, footwork and range with wing chun under real pressure from the opponent is difficult and at our school people don't start doing it until at least three years after gentle non-pressurised interaction, as there is a tendency for people to just fight  and overcome the opponent with strength as opposed technique.

I don't know if your sparring allows elbows but, if not, I wonder if you might see some limitations during sparring on what you would normally do to counter... but in turn  I guess not using elbows will  force you to examine other avenues already in your skill-set.

Anyway, I am really enjoying reading about your experiences during MMA sparring, so thank you for posting it.


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## Martial D (May 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Hitting the right range?


Well partially. Partially I modified the way  I throw it out. (The tansau).


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## DaveB (May 7, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Simultaneous attack and defense!
> 
> Ok, first of all, I train MMA with a white belt mentality. I work what I train there, and leave my existing skills at the door FOR THE MOST PART.
> 
> ...



It's all in the training.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago a karateka told me that blocks don't work. He apparently understood the real application of karate blocking.

 Yet with a little practice in the right environment...


----------



## DaveB (May 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Except there are arts that do kata and don't spar. There are arts that spar and don't do kata.


Maybe but their is nothing stopping them from doing either.
There is no karate style that does a 10 mile run or uses a speed ball, until they do.



> The training is the art.


No, the training is how you develop the art. The fighting is the art. The ballet is the art. The swimming is the art. The picture is the art. There is no activity where the process of building the skill is considered the same as the skill it's self. A master carpenter may do extra training to be called such but if his table has 3 legs and one is short he won't get the title.



> But OK let's say it isn't. Let's make an art a system of techniques that can be trained in any manner.



That's one aspect of a fighting art, arguably the least important one, but OK for argument's sake.



> You still are going to have a list of techniques that are better than another list.


Better how? For what? For whom?

You might be right, but things are rarely that simple. For one thing if I spend 1000 hours training to perform a supposedly 2nd rate technique and another 1000 hours training to land it, so look as my training is efficient and effective the final result will imo have a negligible difference to the superior method.  Even something that has tactical weaknesses like a grappling technique should be OK because your timing will be optimised and your understanding of the possible counters should be complete.



> Again this is where efficiency comes in. Regardless of how you train. What you focus on. If you have an inefficient list you have to work harder to be successful.



Again, efficiency of what?




> And by the way there really should be no fundamental difference between the benefits of kata for ring or kata for street. It will either help you fight. Or it won't.



I never mentioned any Street,  I said training goals. Some people like kata for its meditative quality, some aim for perfect technique etc. Personally kata has expanded my tactical range, improved power generation and movement, balance etc and all when I had no partners to spar with.



> Of course MMA does have its own study. They are called MMA fights. We can tell what systems are more efficient. Because they are more successful for a wider range of people.
> 
> And yes the point of MMA is to introduce better systems from other arts.



Except MMA also has dogma and almost everything that is in use now was considered useless at one point.

Not many people go to mma gyms and actually test a martial art. Lots test their training up to that point, but when they fail do they adjust their training and come back until they have a better understanding of their base art?
The people I've encountered usually get hit, get choked, get disillusioned (often due to over inflated egos to begin with) and then jump on the band wagon.

This thread is the first genuine study I've encountered outside my own. That being said I've yet to see what MD will do when stuff stops working for him.


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## macher (May 7, 2018)

DaveB said:


> It's all in the training.
> 
> As recently as a couple of weeks ago a karateka told me that blocks don't work. He apparently understood the real application of karate blocking.
> 
> Yet with a little practice in the right environment...



From my experience ‘form’ works however many times it doesn’t work or even look like the form you’re applying in a formal sense. It’s the principle not the form per se. The only way you can experience this is sparring.


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## Martial D (May 7, 2018)

DaveB said:


> This thread is the first genuine study I've encountered outside my own. That being said I've yet to see what MD will do when stuff stops working for him.



Find new stuff. Ajust.

There's been lots of that, believe you me. The way in which I execute the WC stuff I can make 'work' in an MMA environment is so different than the way I was taught it! 

Eventually a whole new WC system may emerge from this.


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## DaveB (May 8, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Find new stuff. Ajust.
> 
> There's been lots of that, believe you me. The way in which I execute the WC stuff I can make 'work' in an MMA environment is so different than the way I was taught it!
> 
> Eventually a whole new WC system may emerge from this.



I would suggest that if you are finding different expressions of the same ideas that you are doing the same art, just as it should be done.

Alan Orr does a great job of explaining the difference between the training of his art and the application.


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## Martial D (May 8, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I would suggest that if you are finding different expressions of the same ideas that you are doing the same art, just as it should be done.
> 
> Alan Orr does a great job of explaining the difference between the training of his art and the application.


Maybe. I'm of two minds.

On the one hand, WC, like all fighting systems, is pretty useless if it can't be used for fighting..so it only makes sense to either abandon it or MAKE it work.

On the other hand, if what it takes to make it work ends up transforming it beyond any recognition, is it really the same style any longer?

For me it's a matter of context. Is the art the movements, or is the art the concepts and strategies behind the movements? I wouldn't hazard to assert either as the 'truth'. It is a matter of perspective.

I used to see it more in the light of the former, but now I would say it is the latter.


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## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Find new stuff. Ajust.
> 
> There's been lots of that, believe you me. The way in which I execute the WC stuff I can make 'work' in an MMA environment is so different than the way I was taught it!
> 
> Eventually a whole new WC system may emerge from this.



Yeah like trying to hand trap and to pressure fight at the same time?

Have you grappled with striking yet? One of the few times all that arm sensitivity works.


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## Martial D (May 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah like trying to hand trap and to pressure fight at the same time?
> 
> Have you grappled with striking yet? One of the few times all that arm sensitivity works.


Ya we do full sparring sessions on Thursday. I would concur with that. 

But I already had WC from there before I started doing MMA. I'm working on expanding on that.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ya we do full sparring sessions on Thursday. I would concur with that.
> 
> But I already had WC from there before I started doing MMA. I'm working on expanding on that.



Yeah it is one of the few times i do anything like chi sau. Is just to suff that free arm in the grapple.

Hand fighting and such.


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## DaveB (May 9, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Maybe. I'm of two minds.
> 
> On the one hand, WC, like all fighting systems, is pretty useless if it can't be used for fighting..so it only makes sense to either abandon it or MAKE it work.
> 
> ...



It is definitely the latter. 
Part of it is the culture these arts came from. I'm no expert but I have been told it is just a different way of understanding growth and development. 

Also forms were a necessary transmission tool both in terms of training and instruction, but in terms of security and keeping your knowledge out of enemy hands.

Forms are intended to be discarded once their lessons are ingrained. (Forms as in both preconstricted sequences and as in the rigid formal technical methods taught in class).

Fighting is wild and dynamic and emotional but most of all it is life and death. This is something lost in the sporting/cultish tradion mentalities. If your life is on the line, why would you not weave your head out of the way of the incoming punch or make a more acute angle with your tan sau. You are supposed to do what you need to to win, and usually understanding the principles of an art, that message comes through loud and clear.


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## macher (May 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> It is definitely the latter.
> Part of it is the culture these arts came from. I'm no expert but I have been told it is just a different way of understanding growth and development.
> 
> Also forms were a necessary transmission tool both in terms of training and instruction, but in terms of security and keeping your knowledge out of enemy hands.
> ...



When these CMA were created / developed I suppose they weren’t taught as form based but fighting based which means immediate application of the form / technique. Maybe close to the same way I was taught Bagua years ago. We spent most of the time with application and the principle behind the form and when we soared against other arts and especially boxers people would say that doesn’t look like Bagua. Maybe it didn’t but the principal was there.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> It is definitely the latter.
> Part of it is the culture these arts came from. I'm no expert but I have been told it is just a different way of understanding growth and development.
> 
> Also forms were a necessary transmission tool both in terms of training and instruction, but in terms of security and keeping your knowledge out of enemy hands.
> ...



Yeah people say life or death. But i still belive i will have most life or death fighters bitching out halfway in to a round.


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## Martial D (May 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah people say life or death. But i still belive i will have most life or death fighters bitching out halfway in to a round.


It's true in my experience. Most of the traditional martial artists I know aren't super athletic.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Martial D said:


> It's true in my experience. Most of the traditional martial artists I know aren't super athletic.



Athleticism has a lot to do with willpower. Knowing what you can push through.

Which is trained to an extent.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2018)

Martial D said:


> It's true in my experience. Most of the traditional martial artists I know aren't super athletic.


3 months before my last tournament, I tried to move a big rock from one side of my drive way to the other side. During the tournament, I knew I was the strongest guy there.

Rogue Fitness


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## DaveB (May 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah people say life or death. But i still belive i will have most life or death fighters bitching out halfway in to a round.


...and I'm sure it drags along the floor when you walk too.

My comment was about the intent behind the teaching methods of pre-20th century Chinese martial arts. Not any particular ideology of modern ma schools.

The point was that Forms were created with the flexibility to be adaptive to the needs of combat, baked into their dna


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## Martial D (May 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Athleticism has a lot to do with willpower. Knowing what you can push through.
> 
> Which is trained to an extent.


Sure, but what you can push through goes through the roof when you train for the specific activity you'll be pushing though. This is true not just of fighting, but any sort of physical activity that might be demanding.

Eventually you get used to things, can compensate for brute force with structure and techniques, and can just do it longer, both because you are better at it and because your body is more fit for it, due to muscle memory etc…

Athleticism is generally good around the board, but is usually specifically tuned to certain types of activities.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

DaveB said:


> ...and I'm sure it drags along the floor when you walk too.
> 
> My comment was about the intent behind the teaching methods of pre-20th century Chinese martial arts. Not any particular ideology of modern ma schools.
> 
> The point was that Forms were created with the flexibility to be adaptive to the needs of combat, baked into their dna



I'm Jake the Peg, diddle-iddle-iddle-um 

There is a saying here that applies.






If you think you are going to stand up under pressure because you went in to that situation with some sort of intent. You are mistaken. Just saying life or death quite simply doesn't count for anything.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Sure, but what you can push through goes through the roof when you train for the specific activity you'll be pushing though. This is true not just of fighting, but any sort of physical activity that might be demanding.
> 
> Eventually you get used to things, can compensate for brute force with structure and techniques, and can just do it longer, both because you are better at it and because your body is more fit for it, due to muscle memory etc…
> 
> Athleticism is generally good around the board, but is usually specifically tuned to certain types of activities.



Mentally you will tend to quit less as well. If you know that while whatever activity sucks. You have felt that before and overcome it. Rather than hitting that point and looking for a way to give up.

Sports is a falure game. You learn a sport, You suck at it, You fail.

Then you keep doing it untill you succeed.

There is a mental hardening process that allows you to cope with constant falure. The idea being at some undetermined point in the future you will stop failing. And it will suck less.

If you have been conditioned to constantly succeed, when you fail you will not be prepared for the mental attack and chances are go to jelly.

So yes athleticism holds that point of for longer but hard training that creates that athleticism also helps you push through that point.


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## DaveB (May 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I'm Jake the Peg, diddle-iddle-iddle-um
> 
> There is a saying here that applies.
> 
> ...



Way to latch onto a phrase and ignore the context.


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## Poppity (May 10, 2018)

My sifu told me that the forms were used as memory aids to convey the knowledge of the arts as most of the people learning CMA 200-500 years ago were completely illiterate, and so it was an easy way to pack the principles for travel for passing them on in the future.  I think that it is often easy to take for granted how easy the internet and video has made the transmission of information and to forget the only way people used to be able to pass the knowledge on was person to person with the teacher using the forms to remind themselves of the principles.

although I think the forms should not be considered any more than this, I have also been taught that as the forms were created there was a very thought through reason for the sequence of the sets and the ordered movements in each set.

I think there seems to be general consensus that the principles behind the forms and techniques are where the useful application is, but there is disagreement on the best way to unlock those principles for effective application.

I think athleticism has its place but it is not the be all and end all.  Athleticism can enhance your skilled ability but it cannot replace it. There is a guy 10 years my junior whom I spa with and the fact that he smokes and does more weights than cardio becomes apparent in the accuracy, implementation and strength of his blocks and attacks after about 3 minutes.


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## Martial D (May 10, 2018)

Snark said:


> My sifu told me that the forms were used as memory aids to convey the knowledge of the arts as most of the people learning CMA 200-500 years ago were completely illiterate, and so it was an easy way to pack the principles for travel for passing them on in the future.  I think that it is often easy to take for granted how easy the internet and video has made the transmission of information and to forget the only way people used to be able to pass the knowledge on was person to person with the teacher using the forms to remind themselves of the principles.
> 
> although I think the forms should not be considered any more than this, I have also been taught that as the forms were created there was a very thought through reason for the sequence of the sets and the ordered movements in each set.
> 
> ...


Sure but it doesn't matter how well you know your forms if you are fat and out of shape, or a heavy smoker etc. If the fight goes over 30 seconds you are going to need some cardio.


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## Poppity (May 10, 2018)

I agree.

Not having cardio or strength training and only good form and technique means that you will most probably only be able to easily dominate a person who does not know what they are doing or has very limited experience in fighting, but you will probably dominate them even if that opponent has good strength and cardio.

I don't think its outrageous to say most martial artists, mixed or traditional could easily knock out a long distance or short distance sprinter, despite the sprinter having a better level of fitness, just because the sprinter does not practice striking or defending strikes to the head.

But if people are comparing the effectiveness of two competent martial artists, strength and fitness training adds another undeniable beneficial layer of skill and strategy. Can you outlast the opponent's endurance till they get sloppy? or is your fitness lacking so you will have to try and win the fight quickly, and if so, is your skill and technique up to it or is it a gamble?

but this is all common sense.


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## Martial D (May 11, 2018)

Snark said:


> I agree.
> 
> Not having cardio or strength training and only good form and technique means that you will most probably only be able to easily dominate a person who does not know what they are doing or has very limited experience in fighting, but you will probably dominate them even if that opponent has good strength and cardio.
> 
> ...


I dunno. To an extent. Could an out of shape TMA guy beat someone that is athletic but untrained? Maybe, maybe not. Many TMA guys don't hit or get hit, nor train their blocks and defenses against attacks meant to actually hit them. Athletic guy 9/10 times.

If the out of shape guy has trained realistically, but fallen out of shape? 50/50.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 11, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I dunno. To an extent. Could an out of shape TMA guy beat someone that is athletic but untrained? Maybe, maybe not. Many TMA guys don't hit or get hit, nor train their blocks and defenses against attacks meant to actually hit them. Athletic guy 9/10 times.
> 
> If the out of shape guy has trained realistically, but fallen out of shape? 50/50.


I think this also depends on the build of both. I'm 5/7, around 140 pounds. When I stop working out, I go down to 110 (don't get fat but lose muscle). I train realistically, but at 110, if you're having me go against a body builder, and I don't have a knife or pen handy, I wouldn't bet on myself. When I'm in shape, my cardio's also good, my punches pact a lot more power, I would have a much better shot.


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## Martial D (May 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I think this also depends on the build of both. I'm 5/7, around 140 pounds. When I stop working out, I go down to 110 (don't get fat but lose muscle). I train realistically, but at 110, if you're having me go against a body builder, and I don't have a knife or pen handy, I wouldn't bet on myself. When I'm in shape, my cardio's also good, my punches pact a lot more power, I would have a much better shot.


Yes, 100%

In the back of my mind when I wrote that, I was assuming 'all else equal', but I didn't write it down lol.

Size and strength are definitely a (huge) factor.


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## Poppity (May 11, 2018)

I appreciate that I may be in the minority here but I can't help but feel the term TMA has been recently subverted a bit. It now seems to be used to describe any Tai Chi style art (hopefully this won't offend any Tai Chi practitioners), but principally an art which consists mainly of form work and drills but no actual pressurised hands on application.  Sum Nung, Ip Man, Fung Sang all have stories about actual fights as do many of their students.  Fighting traditionally seemed to be considered part and parcel of learning the arts and was cited as a way of being proficient.

Not using a "martial" art to spa/fight seems to be a recent phenomena, under the commented guise that its a more traditional way to practice... which makes me wonder what people think all these previous "traditional" practitioners of the arts were doing as It's quite difficult to get into a fight against people who aren't drunk.

I appreciate that someone will say these are just stories and there is no proof of the fights, but the same is true for many events in a history book.

I consider the style I learn to be traditional, it has aspects of Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism in its terminology, but we also spa hard.

...I am making the comments of people dominating fights on the basis that without practice, in a sparring environment, it is difficult to keep up with someone with good footwork, to predict the opponent's moves to effectively react to the attacks from different directions and it is easy to panic, to over reach, to react to a feint and leave yourself open. Sure if a bodybuilder grabs you and you don't react/counter its going to hurt, but if a bodybuilder can grab you without you countering... anyone can.


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## drop bear (May 11, 2018)

Snark said:


> My sifu told me that the forms were used as memory aids to convey the knowledge of the arts as most of the people learning CMA 200-500 years ago were completely illiterate, and so it was an easy way to pack the principles for travel for passing them on in the future.  I think that it is often easy to take for granted how easy the internet and video has made the transmission of information and to forget the only way people used to be able to pass the knowledge on was person to person with the teacher using the forms to remind themselves of the principles.
> 
> although I think the forms should not be considered any more than this, I have also been taught that as the forms were created there was a very thought through reason for the sequence of the sets and the ordered movements in each set.
> 
> ...



I relate kata to about the same as tricking. (Which is the other thread.) It is  not neccesarily transported directly into a fight. But it trains some basic mechanics that are needed in a fight.

Of course tricking is harder needs a bit more timing and requires better body control and will probably transport these mechanics a bit better.


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## drop bear (May 11, 2018)

Snark said:


> I agree.
> 
> Not having cardio or strength training and only good form and technique means that you will most probably only be able to easily dominate a person who does not know what they are doing or has very limited experience in fighting, but you will probably dominate them even if that opponent has good strength and cardio.
> 
> ...



I jits with a former elite sprinter. And can defeat his athleticism most of the time. 

But I train with athletic guys. And there is a different mechanic to fighting them.


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## Poppity (May 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I relate kata to about the same as tricking. (Which is the other thread.) It is  not neccesarily transported directly into a fight. But it trains some basic mechanics that are needed in a fight.
> 
> Of course tricking is harder needs a bit more timing and requires better body control and will probably transport these mechanics a bit better.



hey, could  you direct me to the other thread, so I can have a read. Thanks!


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## Poppity (May 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I jits with a former elite sprinter. And can defeat his athleticism most of the time.
> 
> But I train with athletic guys. And there is a different mechanic to fighting them.



How do you mean athletic, strength and fitness?.. and what mechanic do you use?


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## drop bear (May 14, 2018)

Snark said:


> How do you mean athletic, strength and fitness?.. and what mechanic do you use?



Yeah look I do MMA and that attracts fit strong guys ot creates them. One of the mechanic changes As an example is that a move doesn't happen in one go.

Lets look at side control escape.
If you get a floppy compliant partner. You just hit that move in one go and it works. 

Then you get a guy who is in for a dog fight. You hit that escape and you get an inch. Then have to fight for another inch and so on. It is a different technique. 

Martial arts technique doesnt look like this sort of fight, gain, grind, repeat. Until the guys you train with really want to put pressure on you.





So you are hitting different priorities.


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## Poppity (May 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah look I do MMA and that attracts fit strong guys ot creates them. One of the mechanic changes As an example is that a move doesn't happen in one go.
> 
> Lets look at side control escape.
> If you get a floppy compliant partner. You just hit that move in one go and it works.
> ...



Thanks for the video, it looks like a good BJJ/grappling exchange. I am assuming this school specialises in this as opposed to the striking and kicking ranges, due to the lack of headgear and gloves and the way they both just dropped to ground.

I absolutely agree that a lot of grappling and ground work is all about strength and endurance and shrimping your body/arms into position, but it is just one range of fighting... and I honestly think that if I relied on this range in my local I would be immediately kicked in the head by the guys mates. Though it is clearly a good technique for one on one.

The good TMA fights I have seen, resemble kick-boxing or boxing where footwork and angling is a key element, It is sadly missing from nearly all wing chun fights I have seen on youtube... I think old school wing chun probably used to resemble the 19th century boxing fights before the 1743 Broughton rules, all those old timer boxers are even standing in a similar pose to the man sau stance, but you can guarantee they would not have just stayed static in that pose, waiting to get hit,

...So, I get the gripe a lot of people have regarding TMAs...  TMAs have been around a long time and there is a tendency for all things which have been around for a long time to become sanitised and overanalysed... whether a bong is at the "correct" angle becomes more important rather than whether it consistently works, and you have drills which will only ever work if the opponent applies in the exact manner you have trained to react to it.  ...but there is a lot of detail in there, just below the surface, if you apply a bit of pressure.

but even with MMA, and MMA is the newcomer to the party... sure it is good to watch now, but as more rules are brought in and it becomes more heavily regulated, it will inevitably become more like boxing or competitive Karate, safer and often decided on the points... and then the martial aspect becomes questionable.. is MMA training for self-defence or a sport.   200 years from now what will MMA look like, my bet is on it being more heavily regulated towards an entertaining spectacle rather than more stripped back to where the most effective techniques for disabling and maiming are improved... and then people learning MMA will no doubt find there is a lot of detail in the MMAs, just below the surface, if you apply a bit of pressure.


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## drop bear (May 14, 2018)

Snark said:


> Thanks for the video, it looks like a good BJJ/grappling exchange. I am assuming this school specialises in this as opposed to the striking and kicking ranges, due to the lack of headgear and gloves and the way they both just dropped to ground.
> 
> I absolutely agree that a lot of grappling and ground work is all about strength and endurance and shrimping your body/arms into position, but it is just one range of fighting... and I honestly think that if I relied on this range in my local I would be immediately kicked in the head by the guys mates. Though it is clearly a good technique for one on one.
> 
> ...



Have you seen a street fight where there are no rules?

Next time you do look for two things.

How many people are maimed and disabled.

And what did they actually get maimed by technique wise.


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## Poppity (May 14, 2018)

Me and anyone who has been out drinking has seen street fights with no rules, they are not rare.

On nights out with friends or old girlfriends I have been headbutted, clocked in the jaw, had a pint glass thrown and hit my head etc. I have also ran my mouth off and had a few guys start on me mainly because drunk people are aggressive and I can be irritating.

The last time I saw two guys fight and get badly maimed was at the end of a night in a fast food shop when one tried to push another guy who was resisting to the floor and they both went through the window. Someone called an ambulance.

Not once have I seen anyone drop to the floor to wrestle in an actual street fight.  I have seen it in plenty of sports, but never in a fight where one of the participants was not sure how far the other person and their friends would go.

So let me ask you, if you were on your own, waiting for friends and three guys came up who you didn't know in a pub or club where there are glasses and chairs which you can be hit with everywhere and one of them just starts on you for kicks, would you really go to ground?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 14, 2018)

Snark said:


> street fights with no rules, ...


This is why to have a brick in your hand is a must in all street fight.


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## drop bear (May 15, 2018)

Snark said:


> Me and anyone who has been out drinking has seen street fights with no rules, they are not rare.
> 
> On nights out with friends or old girlfriends I have been headbutted, clocked in the jaw, had a pint glass thrown and hit my head etc. I have also ran my mouth off and had a few guys start on me mainly because drunk people are aggressive and I can be irritating.
> 
> ...



Space and timing. 

Fighting stand up is called a fifty fifty. So all things being equal I have the same chance to knock him out as he does me.

Which is fine if there is only one guy. If there are three guys the odds automatically work in their favor now it is a 150/50. Which I probably can't win.

So my best option is to finish guys as quickly as I can. Which I can't do with the odds against me.

But if I sit on a guy and use the super power called gravity. I have the advantage. And am more likely to finish a guy. And so more likely to raise the odds in my favor

So it becomes this trade off of when I can take a guy down and do some real damage vs when I need to cover distance to escape multiple attackers.

So yeah if I have a bit of space and a few seconds I will take guys down and Bob them a few times. The trick here is mobility. If I  on the ground and moving I am still hardish to hit.

If I am standing and not mobile I am not any safer than if I am on the ground.


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## macher (May 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Space and timing.
> 
> Fighting stand up is called a fifty fifty. So all things being equal I have the same chance to knock him out as he does me.
> 
> ...



This got me thinking. I was sparring against a grappler a couple of days ago. My conception of a grappler is someone that tried to get you on the ground and will keep you there and may be ground and pound you. He was a stand up grappler although he said he knows how to fight on the ground. He has a background in catch wrestling and judo. He was an ok striker but was able to defend my strikes and close in pretty good. 

What was interesting and got me thinking was when we were close he would get me on the ground rather quickly. But he would let me stand back up so we could keep sparring standing up. He was using his forearms a lot under my chin across my neck to throw me off balance. He would tie up my arms and couldn’t get any uppercuts in. 

This got me thinking that stand up grappling and being an ok striker could be great or even better  for self defense than just being a striker. Reason is the way he was throwing me and getting me on the ground and not mounting me you could just run or if there’s another opponent try to take care of him.


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## Martial D (May 24, 2018)

So last night a competitive judo BB walks into our club. None of our guys have judo so it was an experience. We learned several new throws, and also new ways to land on my head.

Good times.

Yeah. As per the original mission, my WC has boiled down to mostly principles and concepts. It's better than it's ever been even if it's less recognizable to traditional WC guys. 

It's funny that a few short months ago I argued that guys like Keith what's his name and that other guy that trains MMA with WC concepts weren't doing WC, while now I see that sort of approach as the best WC for practical application.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So last night a competitive judo BB walks into our club. None of our guys have judo so it was an experience. We learned several new throws, and also new ways to land on my head.
> 
> Good times.
> 
> ...


Which WC principles and concepts are you finding most useful?


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## Martial D (May 24, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Which WC principles and concepts are you finding most useful?


Center control, slick outside gate entries, attacking on the parry or slip, centerline control from guard, etc


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## macher (May 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So last night a competitive judo BB walks into our club. None of our guys have judo so it was an experience. We learned several new throws, and also new ways to land on my head.
> 
> Good times.
> 
> ...



When I trained with my Bagua teacher years ago that’s exactly how he taught it, concepts. There are concepts behind the form and that’s what he would focus on. 

I believe with CMA that’s how it should be taught of you want to learn self defense.


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## DaveB (May 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So last night a competitive judo BB walks into our club. None of our guys have judo so it was an experience. We learned several new throws, and also new ways to land on my head.
> 
> Good times.
> 
> ...



Congratulations, your conversion to the dark side is almost complete. 

You have discarded the superficial shell of the form and have tasted the hidden depths of,*dramatic pause* The Principles!

Soon your every movement, your every breath will be Wing Chun and your memories of any other idea of the system will be a distant echo.

Let the Chun flow through you...


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## macher (May 27, 2018)

Here’s an interesting video about Wing Chun has to change with the times like technology does. He calls it impulse momentum.


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## KPM (May 27, 2018)

Hendrik has put out TONS of videos.  Most of them are about an hour long of him rambling on and on with no demonstration of what he is talking about.  I haven't watched these because I gave up on trying to watch his videos long ago.  The talks in modern terms, but what he does is still "old school" Wing Chun.  So he hasn't really "modernized" anything other than the terminology.  Trying to understand "traditional" things with "modern" concepts is good!   But his presentations are often mind-numbing to get to the part that really means anything.  He has written a couple of books that may be easier to follow than his videos.  But he wants an high price for his books!


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## macher (May 27, 2018)

KPM said:


> Hendrik has put out TONS of videos.  Most of them are about an hour long of him rambling on and on with no demonstration of what he is talking about.  I haven't watched these because I gave up on trying to watch his videos long ago.  The talks in modern terms, but what he does is still "old school" Wing Chun.  So he hasn't really "modernized" anything other than the terminology.  Trying to understand "traditional" things with "modern" concepts is good!   But his presentations are often mind-numbing to get to the part that really means anything.  He has written a couple of books that may be easier to follow than his videos.  But he wants an high price for his books!



The videos I watched he was talking about getting into short range since WC is a short striking art. His stance and means wasn’t ‘traditional’. 

I agree he does ramble.


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## DanT (May 27, 2018)

In the end, all you need are a couple of punches and kicks, some throws and submissions, be in excellent shape, and be courageous, and you'll be fine. Oftentimes, Martial Arts over complicate things.


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## TMA17 (May 27, 2018)

DanT said:


> In the end, all you need are a couple of punches and kicks, some throws and submissions, be in excellent shape, and be courageous, and you'll be fine. Oftentimes, Martial Arts over complicate things.



I couldn't agree more.  If you keep it simple, and perfect a few things that will go a long way.  In sport competition, you obviously need more because you're training against other skilled opponents.  At that level it becomes a skill game.


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## Martial D (May 30, 2018)

gah, I think I fractured a rib Monday. Training paused.


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## drop bear (May 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> gah, I think I fractured a rib Monday. Training paused.



Does happen. I got eye gouged today. Joys of injuries.


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## KPM (May 31, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I couldn't agree more.  If you keep it simple, and perfect a few things that will go a long way.  In sport competition, you obviously need more because you're training against other skilled opponents.  At that level it becomes a skill game.



I think this was very likely true of TCMA as well.  The guys that were good fighters were likely the guys that were VERY good using the fundamentals that were the foundation of their system, and using them in multiple ways.  These fundamentals tend to get repeated through-out the forms of the system.  Seldom would you see any "advanced" techniques unless the situation was just right.


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## macher (May 31, 2018)

KPM said:


> I think this was very likely true of TCMA as well.  The guys that were good fighters were likely the guys that were VERY good using the fundamentals that were the foundation of their system, and using them in multiple ways.  These fundamentals tend to get repeated through-out the forms of the system.  Seldom would you see any "advanced" techniques unless the situation was just right.



For self defense all you really need are the basics. Learn to evade punches(slipping, parry, blocking etc) and learn how to defend against a takedown and / or basic ground fighting if you happen to get on the ground.

Problem I see in TCMA is lack of resistance training.


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## Martial D (May 31, 2018)

macher said:


> For self defense all you really need are the basics. Learn to evade punches(slipping, parry, blocking etc) and learn how to defend against a takedown and / or basic ground fighting if you happen to get on the ground.
> 
> Problem I see in TCMA is lack of resistance training.


It's a trade off...the training thing I mean. The more realism based the training is, the higher the risk to the body in training.

..I didn't see too many chi sau or lap sau drill related injuries during my Wing Chun training days.


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## Danny T (May 31, 2018)

macher said:


> Here’s an interesting video about Wing Chun has to change with the times like technology does. He calls it impulse momentum.


Watched the first video but not the 2nd.
My but he talks for the sake of talking.
Impulse Momentum...Force applied over a period of time. And just what was all that talk about? Contact under pressure. Nothing new training wise, nothing different, no new technology only new is his terminology.


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## macher (Jun 1, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Watched the first video but not the 2nd.
> My but he talks for the sake of talking.
> Impulse Momentum...Force applied over a period of time. And just what was all that talk about? Contact under pressure. Nothing new training wise, nothing different, no new technology only new is his terminology.



Yea he’s rambles too much but has some good points. For instance with Fa Jin. There are people will say that if Fa Jin isn’t in your Taiji then your not practicing Tai Chi. I agree that Fa Jin is the eventual goal but you can learn Taiji to be applicable without Fa Jin. How? By impulse momentum. A point that I got from him was the current state of Fa Jin is BS. In one of his videos he mentioned the Taiji master against the MMA guy. How the MMA guy one  was impulse momentum. Didn’t matter the Taiji master had all this Fa Jin. Fa Jin is the icing on the cake.


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## Danny T (Jun 1, 2018)

macher said:


> Yea he’s rambles too much but has some good points. For instance with Fa Jin. There are people will say that if Fa Jin isn’t in your Taiji then your not practicing Tai Chi. I agree that Fa Jin is the eventual goal but you can learn Taiji to be applicable without Fa Jin. How? By impulse momentum. A point that I got from him was the current state of Fa Jin is BS. In one of his videos he mentioned the Taiji master against the MMA guy. How the MMA guy one  was impulse momentum. Didn’t matter the Taiji master had all this Fa Jin. Fa Jin is the icing on the cake.


Fa Jin is the ability to create force force. Impulse Momentum is actually applying force over a period of time. 
Current state of Fa Jin isn't BS. What is BS is saying you can create force without doing so but saying you did.


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## macher (Jun 2, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Fa Jin is the ability to create force force. Impulse Momentum is actually applying force over a period of time.
> Current state of Fa Jin isn't BS. What is BS is saying you can create force without doing so but saying you did.



You still need a period of time to initiate a Fa Jin strike though. You still space.


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