# Thinking of a new direction.



## Ronnin (Dec 6, 2006)

Hello all, I hope we can all passively debate, for the purpose of educating, and being educated. I hope I bring some good things to the table.
Anyway, I've been with the Bujinkan for a couple years now, and I was looking to possibly make a change to Genbukan. What are the differences ?


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## bencole (Dec 6, 2006)

Ronnin said:


> Anyway, I've been with the Bujinkan for a couple years now, and I was looking to possibly make a change to Genbukan. What are the differences ?


 
So if you don't know the differences, why are you contemplating "switching"? 

-ben


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## bydand (Dec 6, 2006)

bencole said:


> So if you don't know the differences, why are you contemplating "switching"?
> 
> -ben



Kind of my thoughts as well when I looked at the post earlier.


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## Ronnin (Dec 6, 2006)

well i've been told some differences, Genbukan is a little more traditional Then Bujinkan.


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## jks9199 (Dec 6, 2006)

Ronnin said:


> well i've been told some differences, Genbukan is a little more traditional Then Bujinkan.


Huh?

If I understand the historical lines correctly -- Genbukan is derived from the Bujinkan system.  I don't get quite how it could be more traditional than the tradition's source.


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## Don Roley (Dec 7, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> Huh?
> 
> If I understand the historical lines correctly -- Genbukan is derived from the Bujinkan system.  I don't get quite how it could be more traditional than the tradition's source.



I am sure he is talking about the way things are taught. There is quite a bit of freedom in the way the Bujinkan teaches when compared to some of the styles here in Japan.

I think I should point out that threads like this tend to cause problems. Ben and the others are not reacting like they are to be mean. It is just they have seen so many threads like this turn into flame wars between the two orginizations. Most folks can be reasonable when talking about their orginization compared with others. But there is always someone who has to take the tack of _our group is better because the other side sucks!!!!_ And that sets off even the reasonable guys on the other side who respond in kind and sets off the reasonable guys on the side of the instigator before they can stomp him into the ground.

Actually, most of the worst offenders of that type of thing are not part of any of the two originizations and have been banned. But oh boy did we have  a lot of flame wars for a long time before the last one was banned.

My advice would be to search through past threads and ask via PM to members of the Genbukan. Then go to the school you are nearest to and observe class and talk to the teacher. There may be a wide bit of difference between the way two dojos in the same orginization teach, and what is important is the one *you* will be going to if you join.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 7, 2006)

Don's post is an excellent idea.  Search for some threads on Genbukan and Budo Taijutsu and then check out some nearby schools to determine which is the best fit for you.  Good luck.


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## mystic warrior (Dec 7, 2006)

I am "NOT" trying to be the devil here.
However what do you do if you live in a state or even a country that there is no Genbukan but the bujinkan is every where ( I mean no disrespect to member of the bujinkan) Genbukan is no where near the size of the bujinkan. Either way good luck in your path.


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## makoto-dojo (Dec 7, 2006)

My advice as a member who has been in the Bujinkan, is go to a Genbukan Dojo and see if it suits you. if it does fine, if not fine, but at least you know for yourself. I have many friends still in the bujinkan who are very happy, there is allot of great things in the Bujinkan, teachers people etc..

Tanemura Sensei has very specific ways he thinks these arts should be taught, Hatsumi Sensei has his own ways, as an individual you may like one more than the other.

One other point I want to make is that while it is true that tanemura Sensei was vice president of the Bujinkan at one time, he has since went his own way and had other teachers, (he still has teachers) and this has caused the genbukan to truly move away from the Bujinkan. it truely stands on its own.

Good luck in your search.

Respectfully,


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## loren (Dec 29, 2006)

tradition as talked about here between the schools is purely the thoughts of different teachers. Traditional scroll material was written very vaugely and for a reason. A story was told of a visiting insrtuctor from a different art watching a "ninjutsu" class, after a while the visiting insrtuctor stated that the students looked as if they all had different instructors. Thank you was the reply. Tradition may be looked at as a starting point as well as the finish.


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## Carol (Dec 29, 2006)

Is there anyone that can offer a comparison of some of the differences?  I'd be intrested to know just for my own knowledge.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 8, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Is there anyone that can offer a comparison of some of the differences?  I'd be intrested to know just for my own knowledge.



 Dear Ms. Kaur,


  I seen this when it was originally posted, however, I didnt want to touch itJ
  Reason being I wanted to avoid any potential trouble. People hold their styles very dear to them, and if people see something as a slight (even if it is not intended), they tend to defend their arts, their reasons for training in it etc. In other words it gets messy

  I do have experience in both arts, about 23 years in the Bujinkan as a matter of fact But I would feel strange comparing both organizations because to be honest, it is like breaking up with a wife, getting re-married and then comparing the two of them in front of each other. Simply not a good idea is it? LOL!

  Obviously if the person doing the comparison has chosen one over the other, then that person prefers the qualities of one over the other, to name publicly the qualities that the person didnt like would only cause hard feelings.

  Suffice it to say, that the Bujinkan is not an organization that I personally wish to be a part of for many varied reasons. Those reasons will remain personal and are just due to what I like and dont like in martial arts and organizations.

  Mr. Hatsumi is obviously skilled and has great knowledge. The Bujinkan is home to many, many fine people, some of them very highly skilled at what they do. I have friends in the Bujinkan who are very happy. We both found the same happiness just in different organizations. It all comes down to personal preference, like all things in life.

  So what I have decided to do is to just tell you the features and benefits of the Genbukan organization and the things that I like about it personally. Then maybe someone else can do the same for the Bujinkan in that way you might come away with a better understanding of the two.

While I am aware that some people out there have great prejudice, I ask that they put it aside and allow others to come forward in good conversation and exchange with mutual respect. 

  The name Genbukan refers to three things. One, it is the name of the Honbu Dojo. Two, it refers to the Ninpo program and organization, (Genbukan World Ninpo Federation) and three it refers to the style of ninpo we do (Genbukan Ninpo Bugei).

  The Genbukan Honbu Dojo houses various federations/organizations teaching various styles in their pure forms. Most but not all of these styles (Ryu) can be traced back through Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei. There are two gates in the Genbukan the Bu-Mon (martial gate) and Shu-Mon (spiritual gate). Lets talk of the Bu-Mon first.


  Entering the martial gate, we find a variety of organizations/federations.

  The oldest of these federations is the Genbukan World Ninpo Bugei Federation. Members belonging to this federation may study the arts of Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, Biken Jutsu, Bojutsu, Shuriken jutsu etc

  So lets talk about these various arts that can be studied under the G.W.N.B.F. banner.
  First Genbukan Ninpo Bugei. This is the oldest of the Genbukan arts and is said to be Tanemura Sokes favorite system. Students who study this art enter into a kyu/dan system  (9th-1st  kyu 1st- 9th dan) and study in detail the various taijutsu that makes up the Ninpo Bugei such as Kosshi Jutsu, Koppo Jutsu, Daken taijutsu, Ju Taijutsu etc This is also the ONLY organization teaching and ranking people in Ninpo Bugei! Bujinkan teaches and ranks people in budo taijutsu (martial arts body techniques) Even though you see many people in the bujinkan referring to what they do as ninjutsu their own Kancho says that this is NOT what he is teaching! The Jinenkan teach and rank people in Jissen Kobudo (real fighting old martial arts) The G.W.N.B.F. is dedicated solely to the Ninjas legacy and arts.

  The curriculum is the same worldwide in all Genbukan Dojo, public tests are preformed, and students are held to an international standard in performance and understanding of the material tested. Percentage grades are given and these go on your permanent record. All students joining the federation must submit an application along with photographs, and will be given a booklet to record their grades, licenses, seminars and trainings attended. A careful record of each students movement through the organization is maintained.

  Once a student has achieved the rank of 3rd degree black belt (or thereabouts) with Tanemura senseis permission a student may choose to study one of the traditional schools that make up the Ninpo Bugei syllabus. The student can rank in the traditional menkyo system even being able to test for and receive menkyo kaiden along with scrolls and densho. This grading runs parallel with the Kyu/dan system of Ninpo Bugei.

  The Ninpo Biken Jutsu system is a step by step system of traditional Japanese sword
  With a kyu system of 9th-1st kyu and a menkyo system of sho-den, chu-den, oku-den, menkyo-kaiden. The sword system is made up from Kukishin ryu, Togakure Ryu, Ono-ha Itto Ryu, Mugen Shinto Ryu etc. Everything from how to hold a sword, to cutting sparring kata, sword care etc.  Is covered. Again public tests are held with percentage grades given.

  The Bojutsu system is taught in Three Kyu grades, sho-kyu, chu-kyu and jo-kyu and then a menkyo system as in the Biken system. The Bojutsu system is very different than the Bujinkan as Tanemura Sensei has inherited a few different lines of Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu. The focus initially is on the 6 and 3 sticks although Jo 4 stick and others are taught step by step.

Also a part of the G.W.N.B.F. are Naginata, Yari, Shuriken etc. Each of these are as well taught step by step in the same way.


  The Next federation is the Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei or K.J.J.R. Again, The curriculum is the same worldwide in all Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei Dojo, public tests are preformed, and students are held to an international standard in performance and understanding of the material tested. Percentage grades are given and these go on your permanent record. All students joining the federation must submit an application along with photographs, and will be given a booklet to record their grades, licenses, seminars and trainings attended. A careful record of each students movement through the organization is maintained.

  This federation (international jujutsu federation) teaches two arts primarily. The first being the jujutsu program. This curriculum comes from a variety of jujutsu ryu, although the Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu is featured heavily in the Kyu grades. From 9th-1st kyu one learns and is tested on most of the Shoden Gata from this school for instance The dan grades feature many ryu not contained in the bujinkan like Shinden Tatara Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Daito Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu, along with Shinden fudo Ryu, Hontai Takagi Ryu etc Again there are 9 kyu grades and 9 dan grades.

  The second art taught in the K.J.J.R. is Chinese martial arts, ba kua, Chin na, chi gung etc. In Japanese Chugoku Kenpo, hakkesho, kina, and ki-ko. These arts are not shared at all in the Bujinkan and are from Master Sato Kinbei. In these arts we can see many of the roots of Japanese jujutsu. Many of the drills in this art develops very fast hands and inside fighting and grappling, even lock flows like in Kali, escrima and arnis and dumog are taught. Its system of ranking is: 3rd kyu, 2nd kyu, 1st kyu, sho-kei, chu-kei, dai-kei, kyoren, denjin.

  There are also two systems that can be studied by either members of the G.W.N.B.F. or K.J.J.R. These systems are Koryu Karate and Goshin Jutsu.

  Koryu Karate is a very fast and devastating system. It uses smaller efficient body movements and rapid explosive counter tactics. This art also has the standard kyu and dan system. It comes mainly from Gikan Ryu Karate Koppo-Jutsu, Kijin Chosui Ryu Daken-Taijutsu, Tenshin Koryu Kenpo, Gyokko Ryu Karate Kosshi-Jutsu and Koto Ryu Karate Koppo-Jutsu along with special kuden from Takamatsu Sensei and Sato Kinbeis kuden regarding Chinese martial arts. This is also taught as a kyu and dan system

  Next is Goshinjutsu. This art focuses on simple techniques that are very effective against common self defense situations, tactics and strategies are taught as well. Again a kyu and dan system are used, and people who are teachers may add with Tanemura Sokes permission their own self defense system ideas that they may have already been teaching

  Last is the Japan Kobudo / Koryu Bujutsu World Federation (JKWF) this federation offers instruction and ranking in authentic Ko-Ryu systems that have been in existence for at least 100 years. A kyu system and then menkyo system is offered.

  The other gate in the genbukan is the Shu-Mon or spiritual gate. Tanemura sensei not only teaches in detail and step by step the authentic Amatsu Tatara system, he also has yet another federation to train teachers in this system which is called the Amatsu tatara World federation.

So as you can see, when someone sayss genbukan it doesnt just mean Ninpo. Worse yet is when people try to say it is Tanemura Senseis version of hatsumis art. This is just not true. There are many aspects that I enjoy in the Genbukan. From a technical point of view, the diversity of the training makes me very well rounded. The strict attention to detail is very appreciated, the standards world wide. The fact that there is a chain of command, a student cannot go around their teacher as happens in the Bujinkan, there is a hierarchy in place that must be respected. Everyone pays their dues and puts in their time.

  I like the fact that there are spiritual tests given AFTER you pass the appropriate physical tests and that these tests (there are five of them) are authentic, done a full speed and no punches pulled so to speak. For example, the test for Renshi requires someone to first pass the required physical material and then they must kneel before Soke who is armed with a bamboo sword, Soke will either cut straight down or diagonal down. The person must respond with rolling away safely. The next test is from behind, then the next test from behind with a live blade, next test is again from behind with a live blade, but there are two cuts like a cross +  even Kuji Kiri is taught step by step to Dojo-Cho


  There are many, many reasons I like the Genbukan and many benefits of being a member I have not even listed. But I hope this can give you some idea of the Genbukan and help you understand how it is different from other organizations.



Sincerely,


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## Dale Seago (Jan 8, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> But I would feel strange comparing both organizations because to be honest, it is like breaking up with a wife, getting re-married and then comparing the two of them in front of each other.



Actually more like leaving each one for the other a few times before deciding on your current main squeeze.  . .


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 8, 2007)

Dale Seago said:


> Actually more like leaving each one for the other a few times before deciding on your current main squeeze. . .


 

Mr. Seago,

I must say first off all, that I met you in person at the 1997 Bujinkan Tai Kai. A bunch of us were in the hotel near the bar and you did a little "on the side" instruction section. And I was very impressed, both with your ability and personality. I remember one thing you did very well, in which you produced a small knife and surprised everyone. I remember thinking that I would have been all kinds of dead if I ever attacked you because it was like magic and I had never seen it coming.

Over the years while in the Bujinkan I remained impressed with your knowledge. I must say that I am now however a little let down and saddened but your slightly veiled "dig" at me. Sir you are a man of rather advanced age, you have a good position in life in terms or work and what you bring to society, you have students who respect you as well.

But such actions are beneath you sir, these sorts of things are best left to high school children. I am disapointed...

While I am disapointed with your comment, I do still respect you for your ability, knowledge and memories. There is not much I can do about how you feel about me.

Maybe one day for you the past will be the past and you can let it go.


From my side I will still recomend Mr Dale Seago as one of the best the bujinkan has to offer...

I wish you peace.

Sincerely,


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## Dale Seago (Jan 8, 2007)

That was unnecessary and uncalled for on my part. I apologize.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 8, 2007)

Dale Seago said:


> That was unnecessary and uncalled for on my part. I apologize.


 

Thank you Mr. Seago. I do truly appreciate it.

Sincerely,


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## Carol (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks to both of you gents for being class acts.  

The trouble with being an engineer is that engineers tend to think like....well....engineers.  We tend to think logically.  Quite often I'm reminded by the fact that something that looks like a logical question doesn't always have a logical answer. 

Sensei Ray, I really appreciate your input.  You put a tremendous amount of thought in to your post and I really appreciate all the time that you spent to help me.

I wish you and your school lots of success, and I hope you keep posting here on MT.  It's great to see your input.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 9, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> The trouble with being an engineer is that engineers tend to think like....well....engineers. We tend to think logically. Quite often I'm reminded by the fact that something that looks like a logical question doesn't always have a logical answer.
> 
> Sensei Ray, I really appreciate your input. You put a tremendous amount of thought in to your post and I really appreciate all the time that you spent to help me.
> 
> I wish you and your school lots of success, and I hope you keep posting here on MT. It's great to see your input.


 
Ms. Kaur,

thank you for the kind words. I am happy that I was able to help you.

Sincerely,


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 9, 2007)

Yes Richard, glad to have you hear and hopefully you can stop by the meet and greet and introduce yourself.


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## Dale Seago (Jan 9, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> Thank you Mr. Seago. I do truly appreciate it.



Thanks for accepting it. It was sort of a case of kicking the dog because you're pissed at the wife; it actually had nothing whatever to do with you or the Genbukan, I just was "in a mood".


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 9, 2007)

Dale glad to have you posting here.  I was wondering if you wouldn't mind starting a thread with your take as to this year's theme of the year and what we can expect from it?


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 9, 2007)

Dale Seago said:


> Thanks for accepting it. It was sort of a case of kicking the dog because you're pissed at the wife; it actually had nothing whatever to do with you or the Genbukan, I just was "in a mood".


 
Mr. Seago,

no worries, we have all been there...

:asian: 

Sincerely,


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