# Jeff Speakman speaks...and speaks....and speaks...



## Carol

Mr. Jeff Speakman addresses a crowd of BB's in Santiago de Chile and presses a lot of hot buttons when he does it.


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Please, keep the discussion civil.


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## Hand Sword




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## Doc

My first question would have to be; "Why couldn't he get any other Ed Parker Kenpo Seniors to sign his 7th Diploma? Kelly, Planas, White, Sepulveda, Trejo, etc? Along with his first instructor Lou Angel, we all were on the board of his arranged "formality test" for 6th.

And, a math lesson based on his "time in grade." He started with Larry Tatum around 85 and got his black from Tatum as well. He was 4th when Mr. Parker passed. 5/4=?

My favorite line; "I don't make money from Kenpo. I make movies." The ONLY movie he ever mentions is "Perfect Weapon" which was released in 1991. Wasn't that over a decade and a half ago?


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## Hand Sword

Doc,
Sir, who awarded him his 4th degree?


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## Doc

Hand Sword said:


> Doc,
> Sir, who awarded him his 4th degree?



Parker for the movie. This was after Tatum was fired.


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## Hand Sword

How would you evaluate Mr. Speakman's Kenpo skills at the time?


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## Doc

Hand Sword said:


> How would you evaluate Mr. Speakman's Kenpo skills at the time?


At the time Jeff was quite an athlete.


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## Carol

He went from white to 4th black in 6 years time?  He earned his 1st degree from Mr. Tatum, were the other promotions from Mr. Parker?


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## HKphooey

He received his 1st degree BB in Japanese Goju-Ryu Karate from Lou Angel in 1980.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Interesting!


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## Doc

Carol Kaur said:


> He went from white to 4th black in 6 years time?  He earned his 1st degree from Mr. Tatum, were the other promotions from Mr. Parker?



Well dubiously yes, but only in the sense that Parker signed everyone's diploma making it easy for most to say they were promoted by him. But in actuality, you must look on the right side of the diploma under "instructor." Parker signed on the instructor line for 4th, and Tatum taught him tthrough 3rd. Jeff's problem has never been his athleticsm, but his tremendous ego of actor and martial artist combined. Man there are some stories, but the interview gives you a pretty good idea. He has a degree in Psycology and he uses it to the max.


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## 14 Kempo

Yes, very interesting. But who am I to say anything, I'm not even of that style. He definately loves to hear himself talk.


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## DavidCC

HKphooey said:


> He received his 1st degree BB in Japanese Goju-Ryu Karate from Lou Angel in 1980.


 
Actually, it is Tenshi Goju, Lous Angel's manifestation of the Goju Ryu he learned from Funakoshi and Urban.  What's the difference???  I have no idea


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## DavidCC

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Hand Sword* 

 
_How would you evaluate Mr. Speakman's Kenpo skills at the time?_





Doc said:


> At the time Jeff was quite an athlete.


 
haha that totally doesn't answer the quesiton 

or does it?!?!?! :angel:


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:


> At the time Jeff was quite an athlete.


 
Very clever Doc.



			
				NEO from the Matrix said:
			
		

> You haven't answered my question.


 


			
				Doc a.k.a the architect said:
			
		

> Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.


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## LawDog

I could not get the sound to work.


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## RevIV

LawDog said:


> I could not get the sound to work.


 

You need to crank up your speakers to hear it, then at one point in the first clip it gets real loud.
Jesse


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## Monadnock

While he did make a lot of good points, I certainly hope that talk went on _after_ the seminar had finished.

I went to several of his classes on the East coast back in the early 90's and he could really move then too.

I wonder if any of the other Kenpo mega-dans would like to comment on how often they achieved a red stipe on their belt though. Would be a nice comparison.


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## Doc

Monadnock said:


> While he did make a lot of good points, I certainly hope that talk went on _after_ the seminar had finished.
> 
> I went to several of his classes on the East coast back in the early 90's and he could really move then too.
> 
> I wonder if any of the other Kenpo mega-dans would like to comment on how often they achieved a red stipe on their belt though. Would be a nice comparison.


Jeff has never been lacking in athleticism, and it was obvious as he came up the ranks. But his ego is difficult for him to contain, and eventually he turns most people off with little endorcement except for his own acquired students. He's ruthlessly fiecre when it comes to controlling all that are around and under him.

On another note, he was taught by Parker what he needed to be successful on the screen because that was his strength. His early seminars before 5.0 consisted of a lot of TKD-like moves and endless techniques with 20 moves to conclusion.


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## Monadnock

Doc said:


> Jeff has never been lacking in athleticism, and it was obvious as he came up the ranks. *But his ego is difficult for him to contain*, and eventually he turns most people off with little endorcement except for his own acquired students. *He's ruthlessly fiecre when it comes to controlling all that are around and under him.*
> 
> On another note, he was taught by Parker what he needed to be successful on the screen because that was his strength. His early seminars before 5.0 consisted of a lot of TKD-like moves and endless techniques with 20 moves to conclusion.


 
I've seen this trend for a long time in my own dealings with the Kenpo crowd. I have no doubts it extends beyond my own geographic area. Having left and seen the light in other styles that really train, it really makes me laugh.

Looking at some of the 5.0 clips on his site and YouTube, it looks as though those guys are really thumping. It almost takes on, dare I say, a realistic look to it. I wish there was a group out here to investigate...


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## Doc

Monadnock said:


> I've seen this trend for a long time in my own dealings with the Kenpo crowd. I have no doubts it extends beyond my own geographic area. Having left and seen the light in other styles that really train, it really makes me laugh.
> 
> Looking at some of the 5.0 clips on his site and YouTube, it looks as though those guys are really thumping. It almost takes on, dare I say, a realistic look to it. I wish there was a group out here to investigate...


I've stated before, I appreciate what jeff is doing with his Kenpo. Although some of the techniues are questionable, I applaud their willing to address issues and the physical toughness in some of the students I've seen. Good for him.


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## terryl965

Every person is intitle to there opinion of events, I'm not a Kenpo person by any means but, he will believe the way he believes.


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## SL4Drew

One thing Mr. Speakman did that I thought very highly of was the first few AKKS camps. I don't know if he meant it to be this way, but you could go from room to room and judge the instructors and what they were teaching. It was kind of a Kenpo marketplace.

Although some of the instructors they left me lukewarm, there were other people that thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. And a few (as far as I am still concerned) were outright duds. But at the least you got to get a sense of what some seniors were doing with Mr. Parker during their time with him and/or since his death. And there was something for just about everyone. It was eye opening for me.

But I am proud and unashamed to say the Doc blew the doors off and out. I remember everyone on the first day of that first camp going "who is this Chapel guy?" After his first seminar everyone KNEW who the Chap'el guy was. Plus, the sound of the hotel changed--what with all the slapchecking going on.


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## Doc

SL4Drew said:


> One thing Mr. Speakman did that I thought very highly of was the first few AKKS camps. I don't know if he meant it to be this way, but you could go from room to room and judge the instructors and what they were teaching. It was kind of a Kenpo marketplace.
> 
> Although some of the instructors they left me lukewarm, there were other people that thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. And a few (as far as I am still concerned) were outright duds. But at the least you got to get a sense of what some seniors were doing with Mr. Parker during their time with him and/or since his death. And there was something for just about everyone. It was eye opening for me.
> 
> But I am proud and unashamed to say the Doc blew the doors off and out. I remember everyone on the first day of that first camp going "who is this Chapel guy?" After his first seminar everyone KNEW who the Chap'el guy was. Plus, the sound of the hotel changed--what with all the slapchecking going on.


Yes, and the first camp in Baltimore was a great experience and everyone loved the experience. The first in Vegas were good too, although politics reared its ugly head and were a forcast to come. He's a master manipulator until he can't help himself.


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## Carol

Doc said:


> Yes, and the first camp in Baltimore was a great experience and everyone loved the experience. The first in Vegas were good too, although politics reared its ugly head and were a forcast to come.



On that note...

Kenpo belt tests measure "doing" and "making".  They don't necessarily measure "teaching".   

The art is passed on by teachers, moreso than performers...in my view.  But what concerns me is that the consistency of teaching in Kenpo is...not consistent at all.

Does Mr. Speakman have this concern about the teaching of Kenpo?


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## Touch Of Death

Carol Kaur said:


> Mr. Jeff Speakman addresses a crowd of BB's in Santiago de Chile and presses a lot of hot buttons when he does it.
> 
> 
> [yt]YtnvU9JEIKM[/yt]
> 
> [yt]tIQjcIUy3c8[/yt]
> 
> [yt]bR1XEBSUD30[/yt]
> 
> [yt]k6yKCUZb_7o[/yt]
> 
> 
> Please, keep the discussion civil.


Everytime Kenpo is going straight to hell I am in the wrong camp.:angel:
Sean


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## Doc

Carol Kaur said:


> On that note...
> 
> Kenpo belt tests measure "doing" and "making".  They don't necessarily measure "teaching".
> 
> The art is passed on by teachers, moreso than performers...in my view.  But what concerns me is that the consistency of teaching in Kenpo is...not consistent at all.
> 
> Does Mr. Speakman have this concern about the teaching of Kenpo?



I really don't know, but the inconsistency in the commercial art is part of its non-traditional design.


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## SL4Drew

Doc said:


> Yes, and the first camp in Baltimore was a great experience and everyone loved the experience. The first in Vegas were good too, although politics reared its ugly head and were a forcast to come. He's a master manipulator until he can't help himself.


 
Yeah I remember. But I still liked the concept of the camp; it was great for the briefest of moments.


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## LawDog

I think that we in Kempo/Kenpo community should show what we, as a group, really know, what we can do and how well we can do it instead we tend to point a finger at each other and degrade.
The poor image of Kempo / Kenpo in general has been created by ourselves.
Doc is great at this, Speakman is excellant at this, Parker was the man. Is this really hard to do?
Just my view point on all of this.
:asian:


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## IWishToLearn

Interesting.


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## Karatedrifter7

I think he's good, If I was gonna switch Kenpo's it'd be his Kenpo 5.0.
Who doesnt have an ego? My instructor makes him look like the "Quiet Man"

Dave,


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## Hand Sword

I think any of the Parker trained seniors would be a good choice. All are valid.


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## Doc_Jude

Very interesting thread! Thank you.

Hey, you kenpo guys got it easy. Coming from the Bujinkan... hey, it's refreshing to actually have someone speak out against mega-dans in public, even if it takes him 40min :uhyeah: 

That's kinda why I like my current Silat instructor. A guy asked him what his rank was, what were his qualifications? "Well, I don't know. Why don't you come over here and hit me?" "Hit you!?! How?" "However you like."
The guy left 5 minutes later and never came back. 


PS: Hey Doc, some guys from Cliff Stewart's camp said to say howdy!


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## HKphooey

Monadnock said:


> While he did make a lot of good points, I certainly hope that talk went on _after_ the seminar had finished.
> 
> I went to several of his classes on the East coast back in the early 90's and he could really move then too.
> 
> I wonder if any of the other Kenpo mega-dans would like to comment on how often they achieved a red stipe on their belt though. Would be a nice comparison.


 
You bring up a vaild point...  Does any one have, handy, the rank progression of all the "Seniors" after GM Parker's death and how did they earn/or were awarded that new rank?


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## michaeledward

That would be an interesting new thread.


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## thetruth

I don't know about Jeff's theories on traditional arts though.  He presses the point that he has tested for every rank and that each rank in traditional systems take roughly an year for each dan level. 1+2+3+4+5+6+7=28.  I'll use judo as an example. My old instructor graded to 7th dan about 3 or 4 years ago after 50 something years in the art. I don't mind him grading to 7th as it certainly has no effect on me but he should even suggest in the round about way he does that his grading period or method is even remotely similar.  Plus the years of dan thing is wrong.  Also after 5th dan in most traditional Japanese arts people are graded with regards to what they have given back to the art, the quality of students and time.  I guarentee there would be more than 8 years between 7th and 8th dan. I also don't understand how people can grade in front of a panel consisting almost entirely of people from other arts.  It seems odd to me.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## amylong

thetruth said:


> He presses the point that he has tested for every rank and that each rank in traditional systems take roughly an year for each dan level. 1+2+3+4+5+6+7=28.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:



He told me he started when he was 21.  I remember that he'd been in the art about a year longer than me.  So, according to his time in rank, he got his black belt in roughly a year.  I don't think he has been in rank as long as he claims for each level, but he has been in longer than since 85, at least according to what he told me.  Maybe he was studying two kinds at once.  I don't know.

--Amy


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## HKphooey

amylong said:


> He told me he started when he was 21. I remember that he'd been in the art about a year longer than me. So, according to his time in rank, he got his black belt in roughly a year. I don't think he has been in rank as long as he claims for each level, but he has been in longer than since 85, at least according to what he told me. Maybe he was studying two kinds at once. I don't know.
> 
> --Amy


 
I beleive he started his MA training in 1978 while attending college.


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## vishalshukla

Like a lot of other people, I watched the YouTube interview with Mr. Speakman. There was something that I want to clarify. In the interview Mr. Speakman talks about how Mr. Whites students tried to surprise him with a promotion to 10th degree and he declined. That is a bit misleading. Here is what happened.

In 2003 one of Mr. Whites students, who has his own school and doesnt train at BWKS anymore, arranged a tribute dinner for Mr. White and Mr. Bob Mitchell. This was to be a celebration to honor these two long time Kenpoists. As we got closer to the event Mr. White got a hunch that the student hosting the dinner was going to try and present him with a 10th. Mr. White made it very clear that he would not accept a 10th.

The dinner was going along nicely. Several guests like Mr. Speakman, Mr. Trejo and Mr. Dye were in attendance. Finally the host tried to present Mr. White a 10th. Mr. White politely and emphatically declined and the matter was dropped.

Mr. Whites current, loyal and active students know exactly how he feels about wearing a 10th. None of us were in support of the surprise promotion. We all agree that students dont promote instructors, especially instructors who have made their feelings clear. When Mr. Speakman said that Mr. Whites students tried to promote him, that was not the case. It was one (former) student who was doing it for his own reasons.

In addition, since we are on the topic of the Speakman interview and the discussions related to it, I need to speak for all of us at BWKS and Mr. White himself. One Kenponet poster (DV Kenpo) made some comments that came off as negative towards Mr. LaBounty. He claimed that Mr. LaBountys Kenpo is not all Parkers Kenpo. He then made a later statement about how none of the real Kenpo Seniors would sign Mr. Speakmans certificate.

If Sigung Steve LaBounty is not a real Senior, then nobody is. I dont know of anybody who has worked harder and for longer to keep the Flame burning than Sigung LaBounty. Mr. White has often said that if anybody deserves to wear a 10th it is Mr. LaBounty but Sigung has too much respect for the art and Mr. Parkers memory to ever put on a 10th. Instead he keeps teaching and producing top notch students. If you look at the Kenpo family tree a lot of very well known people got their start under Mr. LaBounty. 

As far as claims that Mr. LaBounty doesnt know the Parker system, if you dont think his Kenpo is real and works, you are very wrong. A good Steve LaBounty body punch will help you a lot more than knowing the latest version of the extension to Locking Horns when the ***** hits the fan.

Speaking once again for all of us at BWKS, we are very proud to train under Mr. White and be affiliated with Mr. LaBounty. I can think of no finer representatives of our art than these two men.

Respectfully yours,
Vishal Shukla


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## Brian Jones

Wow!

Mr. Speakman managed to insult just about every senior (directly or by inference) in one interview.  Pretty amazing.

Brian Jones


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## Doc

Brian Jones said:


> Wow!
> 
> Mr. Speakman managed to insult just about every senior (directly or by inference) in one interview.  Pretty amazing.
> 
> Brian Jones



Jeff has always made no bones about the fact he believes he should be the one to "lead" kenpo, but then he's not the only one either.


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## James Kovacich

Jeff has been a black belt since 1980, not all Kenpo, but a BB for 27 years. 8 years passed between 6th and 7th degree, that sounds reasonable. Jeff clearly states why directly and indirectly why he is not affilated with the 10th degrees. There should be no question as to why they were not involved in his 7th degree test, in his own organization. And I think those that should know this the best are the ones who signed his 6th degree BB 8 years earlier.

American martial arts are taking a lot of heat from around the world and the posts here are good example of why. It reminds me of someone I would like to consider my friend, Professor Joe, a 7th degree from the old school, being harassed on the internet by green belts. It's rediculus.

Have a good my MA brothers and sisters,
James Kovacich


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## James Kovacich

Doc said:


> Jeff has always made no bones about the fact he believes he should be the one to "lead" kenpo, but then he's not the only one either.


In that video he said the opposite, that he was not the one.
Take care my friend,
James


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## Doc

akja said:


> In that video he said the opposite, that he was not the one.
> Take care my friend,
> James


You mean the video where he said he doesn't make money in Kenpo because he makes movies? You aren't suggesting because someone says something in a video, it's automatically true are you? There are some factual errors in your other posts as well. Look I know the guy, he was a student of mine, and I've sat on and been envolved in 2 of his promotion tests. I'm not bashing, only commenting. There is much I could say, but it isn't necessary. I've been fair, and honest.

Kenpo is not the church or law enforcement, it is a business. People want information to help them decide whom they'd like to be affiliated with and give their money to. I've been balanced in my answers, and some of the things I've said could apply to more of the so-called seniors. Ignoring things doesn't help kenpo, but hurts it in the long run. I didn't say he was evil, and most picked up things said in the video. I'm told he got roasted on KenpoNet. Figures.


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## Brian Jones

I have to agree with Doc here.  I only met Mr. Speakman twice.  I liked him.  He can be very personable, and he did a nice job with his seminars.  But he does talk out of both sides of his mouth on the video.  He says "I am not the one", then he says (again by inference) "But let's be honest we all know I am the one."  I also thought it odd that he was upse that when he didn't offer to pay for travel, food, lodging etc.  for any seniors to come to his camp, they didn't come.  He seemed to take this as a sign of non-support.  Like Doc said, it's a business.  It probably had little to do with support as it did with simple finances.  Or did I misunderstand what Mr. Speakman was saying?

Brian Jones


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## Brian R. VanCise

Doc said:


> Kenpo is not the church or law enforcement, *it is a business*. People want information to help them decide whom they'd like to be affiliated with and give their money to.


 
Doc is this really the case?  That Kenpo is a business?


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## LawDog

It's not a business for me. True I do own a commercial type school but I don't live off of it. Due to zoning restrictions I cannot run a dojo out of my house. For me it is enjoyment.


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## Brian R. VanCise

LawDog said:


> It's not a business for me. True I do own a commercial type school but I don't live off of it. Due to zoning restrictions I cannot run a dojo out of my house. For me it is enjoyment.


 
LawDog you are of course the perfect kind of martial arts teacher!  One who is right up front and also one who does not rely solely on his Training Hall for all income. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Truthfully I am sure Doc slightly just miss wrote what he meant but I wanted some clarification.


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## jks9199

Brian R. VanCise said:


> LawDog you are of course the perfect kind of martial arts teacher!  One who is right up front and also one who does not rely solely on his Training Hall for all income.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthfully I am sure Doc slightly just miss wrote what he meant but I wanted some clarification.


This is what Doc wrote:


> Kenpo is not the church or law enforcement, it is a business. People want information to help them decide whom they'd like to be affiliated with and give their money to. I've been balanced in my answers, and some of the things I've said could apply to more of the so-called seniors. Ignoring things doesn't help kenpo, but hurts it in the long run.



This is how I read it: 

Kenpo isn't a calling; what he was trying to provide is some fair analysis, based on his unique experience and knowledge, to help people assess Speakman's comments for themselves.  Kenpo associations (and all martial arts associations) aren't the art; their businesses set up in part to facilitate training and leadership.  All I see Doc as doing was a little Better Business Bureau or Consumer Reports-type analysis...  Make your own choices about who to follow.


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## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> This is what Doc wrote:
> 
> 
> This is how I read it:
> 
> Kenpo isn't a calling; what he was trying to provide is some fair analysis, based on his unique experience and knowledge, to help people assess Speakman's comments for themselves. Kenpo associations (and all martial arts associations) aren't the art; their businesses set up in part to facilitate training and leadership. All I see Doc as doing was a little Better Business Bureau or Consumer Reports-type analysis... Make your own choices about who to follow.


 
I am sure that it is something along those lines but I do want to hear what Doc has to say.


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## terryl965

Ok I took Kenpo for a year or so and what I saw it was a business for the instructor, it is not a calling for those that take it  and for those that teach it it maybe a way of life but still a means of making money and believe me Kempo/Kenpo makes a ton around here and yes so does TKD for that matter. I woud think that we all as MA'ers can and should work together but that is my fantasy.


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## James Kovacich

Doc said:


> You mean the video where he said he doesn't make money in Kenpo because he makes movies? You aren't suggesting because someone says something in a video, it's automatically true are you? There are some factual errors in your other posts as well. Look I know the guy, he was a student of mine, and I've sat on and been envolved in 2 of his promotion tests. I'm not bashing, only commenting. There is much I could say, but it isn't necessary. I've been fair, and honest.
> 
> Kenpo is not the church or law enforcement, it is a business. People want information to help them decide whom they'd like to be affiliated with and give their money to. I've been balanced in my answers, and some of the things I've said could apply to more of the so-called seniors. Ignoring things doesn't help kenpo, but hurts it in the long run. I didn't say he was evil, and most picked up things said in the video. I'm told he got roasted on KenpoNet. Figures.


I really do want to know what was factually wrong with my post.

Assuming that Speakman did not lie or stretch the truth. If he promoted to 7th dan in 2004, he should be promoting to 8th dan in 2 more years according to his standards. Is their a problem with him getting close to 8th dan?

In 2004 before his camp and promotion, Jeff taught and spoke at a seminar I was and at he spoke about why he was forming his testing board. Tom Kelley was present and he introduced him to us. Tom Kelley is also under Hanshi Angel. Why would that be? He is still Kenpo affiliated but there is no denying where he has aligned himself.

Is it true what Speakman said in the video that Tom Kelley was one of the higher Parker black belts, higher than some of the 10th's (I got that from when he was talking about the highest levels of the Parker black belts) ?


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## Doc

jks9199 said:


> This is what Doc wrote:
> 
> 
> This is how I read it:
> 
> Kenpo isn't a calling; what he was trying to provide is some fair analysis, based on his unique experience and knowledge, to help people assess Speakman's comments for themselves.  Kenpo associations (and all martial arts associations) aren't the art; their businesses set up in part to facilitate training and leadership.  All I see Doc as doing was a little Better Business Bureau or Consumer Reports-type analysis...  Make your own choices about who to follow.


Exactly.


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## Doc

LawDog said:


> It's not a business for me. True I do own a commercial type school but I don't live off of it. Due to zoning restrictions I cannot run a dojo out of my house. For me it is enjoyment.



Its not a business for me either, but that's besides the point. Take a look at the plethora of "ads" on the net. These schools are "selling" and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. But when you're in business, it's not to lose money, and when business is your primary focus many compromises must be made. Given a choice between paying the bills and eating, most tend to lean toward eating. many of these schools still do a decent job, but it is still a business. Running a commercial school doesn't automatically equate with being bad, but it does have to impose business realities. Mr. Speakman is in business AND that is not a bad thing. It is what it is.


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## Goldendragon7

Allow me to  chime in here a bit...



akja said:


> Assuming that Speakman did  not lie or stretch the truth. If he promoted to 7th Dan in 2004, he should be  promoting to 8th Dan in 2 more years according to his standards. Is their a  problem with him getting close to 8th Dan?



Since Jeff is the  founder of his own Association, he can make any rule that he wants to, thus  there is no problem.  

Since he does not claim any "KENPO" Instructor  (that I know of) he is free to do as he pleases.  

He mentions Bob White  and Steve LaBounty, which are *advisers,* however.. Mr.  LaBounty is an adviser to at least a *half dozen*  organizations other than Jeff's!!

As a long time personal student of SGM  Ed Parker's, we had discussed many different guidelines as to Promotions.....  Lower thru Black Belt.  Ed Parker did not follow any one plan.  Promotions take  in many, many different considerations depending upon the individual.  So for  someone to say ...... "This is how Ed Parker did it" is not exactly fact.  If  you examine many of those that he promoted..... some take many years to go  between different Black Belt Ranks others take only a couple depending up  personal circumstances.  I do know that although time is a factor..... it was  not top of the list!




akja said:


> In 2004 before his camp  and promotion, Jeff taught and spoke at a seminar I was and at he spoke about  why he was forming his testing board. Tom Kelley was present and he introduced  him to us. Tom Kelley is also under Hanshi Angel. Why would that be? He is still  Kenpo affiliated but there is no denying where he has aligned  himself.



Look, Tom Kelly (whom I also have a long time close  relationship with) is first, last, and always Ed Parker Kenpo!  With that being  said, he isn't hung up about learning other martial arts as well..... many do  that.  He is not LEAVING AK just exploring other avenues and giving the Founder  his due.



akja said:


> Is it true what Speakman said in the  video that Tom Kelley was one of the higher Parker black belts, higher than some  of the 10th's (I got that from when he was talking about the highest levels of  the Parker black belts) ?



Absolutely, he was a student of Steve  LaBounty's originally!  A true knowledgeable kenpoist to say the  least.

:asian:


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## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:


> Allow me to  chime in here a bit...
> 
> 
> 
> Since Jeff is the  founder of his own Association, he can make any rule that he wants to, thus  there is no problem.
> 
> Since he does not claim any "KENPO" Instructor  (that I know of) he is free to do as he pleases.
> 
> He mentions Bob White  and Steve LaBounty, which are *advisers,* however.. Mr.  LaBounty is an adviser to at least a *half dozen*  organizations other than Jeff's!!
> 
> As a long time personal student of SGM  Ed Parker's, we had discussed many different guidelines as to Promotions.....  Lower thru Black Belt.  Ed Parker did not follow any one plan.  Promotions take  in many, many different considerations depending upon the individual.  So for  someone to say ...... "This is how Ed Parker did it" is not exactly fact.  If  you examine many of those that he promoted..... some take many years to go  between different Black Belt Ranks others take only a couple depending up  personal circumstances.  I do know that although time is a factor..... it was  not top of the list!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look, Tom Kelly (whom I also have a long time close  relationship with) is first, last, and always Ed Parker Kenpo!  With that being  said, he isn't hung up about learning other martial arts as well..... many do  that.  He is not LEAVING AK just exploring other avenues and giving the Founder  his due.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely, he was a student of Steve  LaBounty's originally!  A true knowledgeable kenpoist to say the  least.
> 
> :asian:


Oh, oh, you done woke up the dragon.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:


> Oh, oh, you done woke up the dragon.



Well I havn't really been asleep ya know............


----------



## RevIV

Just a side note of humor, the entire time that Mr. Speakman was talking i thought he was saying, Steve LaVallee, which was throwing me off the entire time.  sorry, just wanted to ad something.
Jesse


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:


> Well I havn't really been asleep ya know............



Yeah right. Couldn't prove it by me. Hey Yogi, can Boo Boo come out and play?


----------



## Doc

akja said:


> I really do want to know what was factually wrong with my post.
> 
> Assuming that Speakman did not lie or stretch the truth.



Never argue a point when your source of information must be qualified by such a statement.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:


> Never argue a point when your source of information must be qualified by such a statement.


 
Yup.


----------



## Seabrook

Jeff commented that he had personally tested for every degree of black belt, all the way up to his current rank of 7th degree. For those that have not been in Kenpo for a long time, one must know that honorary promotions are not that uncommon, especially after 5th degree black belt since there is technically no new material beyond 5th degree. I admire his devotion to have to test for each rank, and to not get rank the easy way, which is often an honorary promotion at a Kenpo camp. To continue to get out there and demonstrate ones abilities shows his commitment, both on a physical and courageous level. He also commented that after 5th degree black belt, one should wait a minimum of 5 years between each dan rank, and that that was Ed Parkers standard. While I cant comment on the latter guideline (other than to say that I am sure exceptions were made), I think the 5-year minimum timeframe is an effective standard since it teaches black belts patience and perseverance. By having a 5-year minimum, it will show who is truly in Kenpo for the long haul, and who is undoubtedly committed to spreading the art on a global scale.

As for the Kenpo seniors who refuse to put on a 10th Degree out of respect for Ed Parker, I think that is awesome and takes great humility. But at the same time, I see nothing wrong whatsoever of the likes of Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, Dave Hebler, Frank Trejo, and Mike Pick wearing the 10th degree. These guys are Kenpo legends who have spent their entire lives spreading and promoting this great art that we so love. Their rank should not be questioned by any of us.


----------



## Monadnock

I've started a little listing of some of the seniors and their rank achievments. Maybe some more of the knowledgeable can fill in the blanks, as well as the other 1st generation seniors in Kenpo.

Lee Wedlake 9th degree
==================
1st degree black June 2, 1975
3rd degree black by Ed Parker, 1981
6th degree black by Ed Parker, one month before he passed away, November, 1990
8th degree black by Huk Planas, OCtober 1998
9th degree black by seniors and peers, October, 2006

Mike Pick 10th degree
==================
1st degree black by Ed Parker, March 19, 1965
7th degree black by Ed Parker, June, 1982

Larry Tatum 10th degree
==================
7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1986

Richard "Huk" Planas 9th degree
==================
7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1985
8th degree black by organization in 1991
9th degree black by organizations in 1995
offered 10th degree in 2002(?)

Doc Chapel 10th degree
==================
unknown


----------



## Carol

Monadnock said:


> I've started a little listing of some of the seniors and their rank achievments. Maybe some more of the knowledgeable can fill in the blanks, as well as the other 1st generation seniors in Kenpo.
> 
> Lee Wedlake 9th degree
> ==================
> 1st degree black June 2, 1975
> 3rd degree black by Ed Parker, 1981
> 6th degree black by Ed Parker, one month before he passed away, November, 1990
> 8th degree black by Huk Planas, OCtober 1998
> 9th degree black by seniors and peers, October, 2006



Mr. Wedlake essentially promoted himself to 9th Degree, yes?   His promotion was by the Chinese Kenpo Federation.  Mr. Wedlake himself founded the organization and all those in the organization are listed on the family tree as being under Mr. Wedlake.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Monadnock said:


> I've started a little listing of some of the seniors and their rank achievments. Maybe some more of the knowledgeable can fill in the blanks, as well as the other 1st generation seniors in Kenpo.
> 
> Lee Wedlake 9th degree
> ==================
> 1st degree black June 2, 1975
> 3rd degree black by Ed Parker, 1981
> 6th degree black by Ed Parker, one month before he passed away, November, 1990
> 8th degree black by Huk Planas, OCtober 1998
> 9th degree black by seniors and peers, October, 2006
> 
> Mike Pick 10th degree
> ==================
> 1st degree black by Ed Parker, March 19, 1965
> 7th degree black by Ed Parker, June, 1982
> 
> Larry Tatum 10th degree
> ==================
> 7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1986
> 
> Richard "Huk" Planas 9th degree
> ==================
> 7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1985
> 8th degree black by organization in 1991
> 9th degree black by organizations in 1995
> offered 10th degree in 2002(?)
> 
> Doc Chapel 10th degree
> ==================
> unknown


 
Don't believe everything you see, hear, or read, or don;t see, hear, or read.

Dave


----------



## Doc

Seabrook said:


> Jeff commented that he had personally tested for every degree of black belt, all the way up to his current rank of 7th degree.
> I admire his devotion to have to test for each rank, and to not get rank the easy way, which is often an honorary promotion at a Kenpo camp. To continue to get out there and demonstrate ones abilities shows his commitment, both on a physical and courageous level. He also commented that after 5th degree black belt, one should wait a minimum of 5 years between each dan rank, and that that was Ed Parkers standard.



Assuming what he said was factual .......


----------



## Doc

Monadnock said:


> I've started a little listing of some of the seniors and their rank achievments. Maybe some more of the knowledgeable can fill in the blanks, as well as the other 1st generation seniors in Kenpo.
> 
> Lee Wedlake 9th degree
> ==================
> 1st degree black June 2, 1975
> 3rd degree black by Ed Parker, 1981
> 6th degree black by Ed Parker, one month before he passed away, November, 1990
> 8th degree black by Huk Planas, OCtober 1998
> 9th degree black by seniors and peers, October, 2006
> 
> Mike Pick 10th degree
> ==================
> 1st degree black by Ed Parker, March 19, 1965
> 7th degree black by Ed Parker, June, 1982
> 
> Larry Tatum 10th degree
> ==================
> 7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1986
> 
> Richard "Huk" Planas 9th degree
> ==================
> 7th degree black by Ed Parker, 1985
> 8th degree black by organization in 1991
> 9th degree black by organizations in 1995
> offered 10th degree in 2002(?)
> 
> Doc Chapel 10th degree
> ==================
> unknown



You really probably should just scrap that list. Where is the GoldenDragon when you need him?


----------



## K831

Doc said:


> On another note, he was taught by Parker what he needed to be successful on the screen because that was his strength. His early seminars before 5.0 consisted of a lot of TKD-like moves and endless techniques with 20 moves to conclusion.



You can really see that this is the case when you watch any of his videos/ technique line etc...



Doc said:


> I really don't know, but the inconsistency in the commercial art is part of its non-traditional design.



 Both a strength and weakness I suppose. 



Hand Sword said:


> I think any of the Parker trained seniors would be a good choice. All are valid.



I disagree, there is a huge variance in range of skill and understanding among the "Parker trained Seniors".

As far as time in rank is concerned, that whole idea is lost on me. Individuals should progress based on individual skill and work ethic. Arbitrary numbers or time durations should have nothing to do with it. Talk about missing the point.


----------



## Monadnock

Carol Kaur said:


> Mr. Wedlake essentially promoted himself to 9th Degree, yes? His promotion was by the Chinese Kenpo Federation. Mr. Wedlake himself founded the organization and all those in the organization are listed on the family tree as being under Mr. Wedlake.


 
Yes, when you can't look up for rank, you have to look down, but never give it to yourself.

I hope others contribute to the list to fill in the missing degrees of black belt, as well as the missing seniors. If this has to be split off to another thread, that's fine. But Jeff Speakman pointed out that the gaps between black belts are pretty slim, unlike his, so I wanted to actually do a comparison.


----------



## Monadnock

Doc said:


> You really probably should just scrap that list. Where is the GoldenDragon when you need him?


 
I'm going to let it be for now, until more dates/ranks get filled in by those in the know. Most were put up as autobiographies/resumes, so unless the person is lying...


----------



## Doc

Monadnock said:


> Yes, when you can't look up for rank, you have to look down, but never give it to yourself.
> 
> I hope others contribute to the list to fill in the missing degrees of black belt, as well as the missing seniors. If this has to be split off to another thread, that's fine. But Jeff Speakman pointed out that the gaps between black belts are pretty slim, unlike his, so I wanted to actually do a comparison.



Well to put things into perspective, I've seen Parker allow a promotion of a guy to multiple black ranks in one year. I've seen (heard) him ask a guy what his rank was, and then "bump" him up over the phone. You notice most of the rightgeous indignation of fast rank comes from those that have it already.

While I agree that time experience is an essential element, it is not the only element. Parker had no hard guidleines, but often made suggestions, and then violated them himself.

The time element is often misunderstood. When Parker talked about "years," in grade, he spoke with an assumption that within that period the average student/teacher would have participated a minimum amount every week. Mr. Parker discovered this was a mistake. To suggest that because 5 years has passed that a student is more experienced, knowledgeable, or skilled is making a really huge assumption.

Why is it that whenever you ask someone how long they've been studing the arts, they always give you the time period from their first day, to when you ask the question?

If they studied consistently during that period it would be rare. Some cease studying at some point in favor of workouts, while most take involuntary breaks in their training for injury, work, school, wives, and children. So what does a "year" really mean.

Mr. Parker actually began to rectify that problem with a more realistic guideline based on the collegiate model of "academic unit hours." That is, actual hours on the floor and/or in the classroom. I've refined his suggestion even more, by defining the hours as "teaching," "student," and "auditing." Students have a minimum number of hours for each course (belt), with no more than 20% auditing (to allow for illness, injury, or fatigue). This separate pure "classroom (auditing) hours," from "lab (physical participation) hours. "Teaching hours may be supplimented by student hours, but only under the tutleage of the Senior Professor. 

Only when the "hourly" requirements are met may a student "petition" to take a test for advancement. Regardless of hours, a student may be rejected if they have not met a concensus minimum level of performance and knowledge. Advanced ranks are subject to the same guidelines, and ALL numerical ranks are honorary/emeritus. Teaching ranks are strict, with no exceptions.

The better question is how long did it take for some to move from 4th to 5th after the passing of Mr. Parker? Not that anyone should really care, but it does address credibility of the source. There are lots of professors in Kenpo just like in the academic world. Some are good, and some are really awful. So what? Let them where whatever they want.

The cool thing about Kenpo, is you don't have to study with a professor who is lousy. Stop looking at stripes and look for something unfortunately very rare - competence. Listen it's called "life." You do the best you can until you can do better. How many of you have bought car you thought was a good car only to find out you should have bought a Toyota? 

Consider whatever time you've invested as part of the process. It's called "life expereince." Oldsters like me aren't smarter than everybody else. We've just made more mistakes so we know what not to do. When you've made enough mistakes, than your choices start to look pretty smart. It's called experience. After all you've learned something, if nothing but what is not as good as you thought. Besides, some belong in those schools. Letem' be, letem' flaunt their ranks. They know who they are, and so do some of you. Business is business, right?

I remember at the very first IKC, many were upset that Parker invited Bruce Tegner, who was widely regarded at the time as a fraud. Mr. Parker calmed the hostle crowd by simply saying, "How is anybody going to know how good you are, If they don't have anybody to compare you to?"


----------



## K831

Interesting way to deal with the "time in rank" concept. Even with a more academic approach, it still seems a little subjective. Because people progress naturally at a different rate and have varying levels of ability, wouldn't any standardized amount of "time in rank" always be somewhat arbitrary?

Many people can spend 20 or 30 years in Kenpo and never get it. We have evidence of that. 



Doc said:


> The cool thing about Kenpo, is you don't have to study with a professor who is lousy. Stop looking at stripes and look for something unfortunately very rare - competence. Listen it's called "life." You do the best you can until you can do better. How many of you have bought car you thought was a good car only to find out you should have bought a Toyota?
> 
> Consider whatever time you've invested as part of the process. It's called "life expereince."



Great point, but the culture doesn't really allow that, or, at least makes it very difficult. I started in the martial arts at 8 years old and have had the opportunity to experience and train in multiple styles including several different Kenpo associations. Each time the instructor and the students "know" that this is how it should be done, this is what is effective. Students at a school are so quickly indoctrinated and so quickly gain a false sense of loyalty (most people have a strong need to belong, and few will ask honest questions of themselves and what they are learning) it is a short period of time before their ability to recognize a Toyota from brand X is seriously diminished. 

I would much rather say, sorry guys... that fellow over there can MOVE, I would rather move the right way than my way or your way  as a result, in the last 20 years I have determined which styles I think are effective and complimentary, and which Kenpo associations I will train in. I just dont know that most can, will, or are willing to, recognize a lousy (or even just mediocre) instructor and seek out someone else.


----------



## Doc

K831 said:


> Interesting way to deal with the "time in rank" concept. Even with a more academic approach, it still seems a little subjective. Because people progress naturally at a different rate and have varying levels of ability, wouldn't any standardized amount of "time in rank" always be somewhat arbitrary?


Of course it is. Based on my experience of the average of students I've taught, I've established a reasonable amount of time in grade. Those that are 'fast learners,' will ultimately put in more hours, and those that aren't will be closer to the 'norm.'


> Many people can spend 20 or 30 years in Kenpo and never get it. We have evidence of that.


So? It's my job to establish a base curiculum and address a students needs to the best of my ability. If I do that, than I've done my job. I don't "grade on the curve," or allow "social promotions."

Everyone that goes to college doesn't graduate. It's not the institutions fault. We must remove ourselves from this thought process of being all things to all people. I agree with you. Some may never get it for a variety of reasons. Some people go to Harvard Law, some belong somewhere else. When you step outside the commercial arena, you set standards. Students meet them or not.


> Great point, but the culture doesn't really allow that, or, at least makes it very difficult. I started in the martial arts at 8 years old and have had the opportunity to experience and train in multiple styles including several different Kenpo associations. Each time the instructor and the students "know" that this is how it should be done, this is what is effective. Students at a school are so quickly indoctrinated and so quickly gain a false sense of loyalty (most people have a strong need to belong, and few will ask honest questions of themselves and what they are learning) it is a short period of time before their ability to recognize a Toyota from brand X is seriously diminished.


Once again, so what? Caveat Emptor. If a student won't ask the hard questions and expect reasonable answers, then whose to blame? When you go to buy a used car, a saleman will tell you anything you want to hear to get you to buy. Kenpo is no different. Do your homework, or accept what you get.


> I would much rather say, sorry guys... that fellow over there can MOVE, I would rather move the right way than my way or your way  as a result, in the last 20 years I have determined which styles I think are effective and complimentary, and which Kenpo associations I will train in.


You're one of the smart guys, but you made some mistakes right? You weren't always in the best place for you were you? You window shopped, did some short and long term test drives to arrive where you are today. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?


> I just dont know that most can, will, or are willing to, recognize a lousy (or even just mediocre) instructor and seek out someone else.


Than that's their problem then isn't it? No one can do anything about this in the martial arts or any other service business. If you go to a restaurant and you don't like the food, you don't eat there anymore. That's called "free market" in business. If you are going to have the exterior of your house remodeled well, the more serious the service, the more homework you should do. It's either that or have the "nany state" assign a personal bodyguard to everyone. Bottom line, sooner or later, a person has to be personally responsible. Or maybe they can ask their mother to go with them. Toyota has sold a ton of cars, but so did Yugo. I've been to some really fancy and expensive restaurants, and then had to stop and get a good burger on the way home. When it comes to the service industry, You don't necessarily get what you pay for."


----------



## IWishToLearn

Doc said:


> You really probably should just scrap that list. Where is the GoldenDragon when you need him?




Paging Dr. Dragon. Dr. Dragon...STAT!


----------



## K831

Well, I gotta say Doc, I agree with what you are saying. I admit though, that at this point I feel lucky to train with the people I train with, and want others to realize what is really out there. Sometimes I try and be a little more charitable than the Machiavelli approach. You're right though in your approach.  As they say, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.


----------



## HKphooey

Carol Kaur said:


> Mr. Wedlake essentially promoted himself to 9th Degree, yes? His promotion was by the Chinese Kenpo Federation. Mr. Wedlake himself founded the organization and all those in the organization are listed on the family tree as being under Mr. Wedlake.


 
...With the blessing of many kenpo greats. Doc, I believe I saw your name listed. Is that correct?

Professor Wedlake has done a lot for kenpo and his rank is well deserved.

Read more...
http://www.leewedlake.com/index.asp?PageID=30


----------



## kidswarrior

Doc_Jude said:


> Very interesting thread! Thank you.
> 
> Hey, you kenpo guys got it easy. Coming from the Bujinkan... hey, it's refreshing to actually have someone speak out against mega-dans in public, even if it takes him 40min :uhyeah:
> 
> * That's kinda why I like my current Silat instructor. A guy asked him what his rank was, what were his qualifications? "Well, I don't know. Why don't you come over here and hit me?" "Hit you!?! How?" "However you like."
> The guy left 5 minutes later and never came back. *


I like.  And at least your instructor left him the _ability _to walk. I mean, he could have taken it away.  As my old Kung Fu San Soo instructor used to say, _You do not walk into a man's studio and challenge him_. Then he modeled it by never badmouthing any other MAist, even though he himself took a lot of heat.

I know, this is a kenpo/kempo thread, but I was cross training at the time.


----------



## HKphooey

Carol Kaur said:


> Mr. Wedlake essentially promoted himself to 9th Degree, yes? His promotion was by the Chinese Kenpo Federation. Mr. Wedlake himself founded the organization and all those in the organization are listed on the family tree as being under Mr. Wedlake.


 
Essentially what the WKKA did for a few seniors.  I feel it is important to be judge by ones peers.


----------



## kidswarrior

Doc said:


> Well to put things into perspective, I've seen Parker allow a promotion of a guy to multiple black ranks in one year. I've seen (heard) him ask a guy what his rank was, and then "bump" him up over the phone. You notice most of the rightgeous indignation of fast rank comes from those that have it already.
> 
> While I agree that time experience is an essential element, it is not the only element. Parker had no hard guidleines, but often made suggestions, and then violated them himself.
> 
> The time element is often misunderstood. When Parker talked about "years," in grade, he spoke with an assumption that within that period the average student/teacher would have participated a minimum amount every week. Mr. Parker discovered this was a mistake. To suggest that because 5 years has passed that a student is more experienced, knowledgeable, or skilled is making a really huge assumption.
> 
> Why is it that whenever you ask someone how long they've been studing the arts, they always give you the time period from their first day, to when you ask the question?
> 
> If they studied consistently during that period it would be rare. Some cease studying at some point in favor of workouts, while most take involuntary breaks in their training for injury, work, school, wives, and children. So what does a "year" really mean.
> 
> Mr. Parker actually began to rectify that problem with a more realistic guideline based on the collegiate model of "academic unit hours." That is, actual hours on the floor and/or in the classroom. I've refined his suggestion even more, by defining the hours as "teaching," "student," and "auditing." Students have a minimum number of hours for each course (belt), with no more than 20% auditing (to allow for illness, injury, or fatigue). This separate pure "classroom (auditing) hours," from "lab (physical participation) hours. "Teaching hours may be supplimented by student hours, but only under the tutleage of the Senior Professor.
> 
> Only when the "hourly" requirements are met may a student "petition" to take a test for advancement. Regardless of hours, a student may be rejected if they have not met a concensus minimum level of performance and knowledge. Advanced ranks are subject to the same guidelines, and ALL numerical ranks are honorary/emeritus. Teaching ranks are strict, with no exceptions.
> 
> The better question is how long did it take for some to move from 4th to 5th after the passing of Mr. Parker? Not that anyone should really care, but it does address credibility of the source. There are lots of professors in Kenpo just like in the academic world. Some are good, and some are really awful. So what? Let them where whatever they want.
> 
> The cool thing about Kenpo, is you don't have to study with a professor who is lousy. Stop looking at stripes and look for something unfortunately very rare - competence. Listen it's called "life." You do the best you can until you can do better. How many of you have bought car you thought was a good car only to find out you should have bought a Toyota?
> 
> Consider whatever time you've invested as part of the process. It's called "life expereince." Oldsters like me aren't smarter than everybody else. We've just made more mistakes so we know what not to do. When you've made enough mistakes, than your choices start to look pretty smart. It's called experience. After all you've learned something, if nothing but what is not as good as you thought. Besides, some belong in those schools. Letem' be, letem' flaunt their ranks. They know who they are, and so do some of you. Business is business, right?
> 
> I remember at the very first IKC, many were upset that Parker invited Bruce Tegner, who was widely regarded at the time as a fraud. Mr. Parker calmed the hostle crowd by simply saying, "How is anybody going to know how good you are, If they don't have anybody to compare you to?"



Sir, this may be the best post I've ever read on MartialTalk. :asian:


----------



## Doc

HKphooey said:


> ...With the blessing of many kenpo greats.  Doc, I believe I saw your name listed.  Is that correct?
> 
> Professor Wedlake has done a lot for kenpo and his rank is well deserved.


*ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!*

Mr. Wedlake was gracious enough to seek the advice of those he considered to be the Senior Students of Ed Parker and his seniors in the art. When the discussion arose regarding his promotion, I gladly gave my approval. Mr. Wedlake is a class act, knowledgeable student of the arts, and has always been one of the sharpest guys around.


----------



## Doc

kidswarrior said:


> Sir, this may be the best post I've ever read on MartialTalk. :asian:



I know with you I'm preaching to the chior.


----------



## HKphooey

Doc said:


> *ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!*
> 
> Mr. Wedlake was gracious enough to seek the advice of those he considered to be the Senior Students of Ed Parker and his seniors in the art. When the discussion arose regarding his promotion, I gladly gave my approval. Mr. Wedlake is a class act, knowledgeable student of the arts, and has always been one of the sharpest guys around.



Thanks.

And I totally agree!


----------



## Carol

HKphooey said:


> ...With the blessing of many kenpo greats. Doc, I believe I saw your name listed. Is that correct?
> 
> Professor Wedlake has done a lot for kenpo and his rank is well deserved.
> 
> Read more...
> http://www.leewedlake.com/index.asp?PageID=30




That's the piece I was missing.  Thanks HKP! :asian:


----------



## stickarts

HKphooey said:


> Thanks.
> 
> And I totally agree!


 
As I am working with Prof. Wedlake and getting to know him, I am very impressed with him as a martial artist and as a person.
For any who have not actually met him and would like to form a qualified opinion, come see him at our place in September!


----------



## Seabrook

Doc said:


> While I agree that time experience is an essential element, it is not the only element. Parker had no hard guidleines, but often made suggestions, and then violated them himself.
> 
> Mr. Parker actually began to rectify that problem with a more realistic guideline based on the collegiate model of "academic unit hours." That is, actual hours on the floor and/or in the classroom. I've refined his suggestion even more, by defining the hours as "teaching," "student," and "auditing." Students have a minimum number of hours for each course (belt), with no more than 20% auditing (to allow for illness, injury, or fatigue). This separate pure "classroom (auditing) hours," from "lab (physical participation) hours. "Teaching hours may be supplimented by student hours, but only under the tutleage of the Senior Professor.


 
Great post Doc. 

I couldn't agree more!


----------



## seninoniwashi

Doc said:


> My favorite line; "I don't make money from Kenpo. I make movies." The ONLY movie he ever mentions is "Perfect Weapon" which was released in 1991. Wasn't that over a decade and a half ago?


 
I did a search and found 20 some movies he's been in - even one from last year "Striking Range." Also I guess he played a small part in "Lionheart," lol

I had no idea he starred in anything outside of "Perfect Weapon." Just out of curiosity I'm going to go through them and check them out. Anyone else interested can find them:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0817275/maindetails


----------



## seninoniwashi

Carol Kaur said:


> Mr. Jeff Speakman addresses a crowd of BB's in Santiago de Chile and presses a lot of hot buttons when he does it.
> 
> Please, keep the discussion civil.


 
My response to the videos... I'm not sure what to say. My time in Kenpo karate was limited to just the schools I've been in and the few seminars I could afford at the time. I've got ALOT of research to do ...


----------



## Doc

seninoniwashi said:


> I did a search and found 20 some movies he's been in - even one from last year "Striking Range." Also I guess he played a small part in "Lionheart," lol
> 
> I had no idea he starred in anything outside of "Perfect Weapon." Just out of curiosity I'm going to go through them and check them out. Anyone else interested can find them:
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0817275/maindetails



He only mentions the Perfect Weapon because it was the only one that had a wide general release to theaters and he was the "star." Although I'm sure he made a ton of money off the others, (sure) he probably doesn't remember them either. (Especially the ones he made as cameos with unknown rappers and not the "star".)


----------



## DavidCC

Doc said:


> (Especially the ones he made as cameos with unknown rappers and not the "star".)


 
I rented HOT BOYZ one night and was really pissed off about the whole thing. Not only was there bascially NO kenpo in it, the one scene he was in was pretty disparaging to martial arts or kenpo as a whole.


----------



## Doc

DavidCC said:


> I rented HOT BOYZ one night and was really pissed off about the whole thing. Not only was there bascially NO kenpo in it, the one scene he was in was pretty disparaging to martial arts or kenpo as a whole.



Yes, but he was in it briefly, and I'm sure he was paid, so technically he makes his money in  ... movies.


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## Touch Of Death

"The Perfect Weapon" was good show; however, it think it will be the last big thing he does. He just doesn't have the Star quality to be the next big Action Star. Its good to see kenpo in the movies though.
sean


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## eyebeams

Doc said:


> Yes, but he was in it briefly, and I'm sure he was paid, so technically he makes his money in ... movies.


 
This reminds me of a woman I know who makes money from figure skating. She never made it to the Olympics though, so I'll go and imply she's a fraud.


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## Doc

Touch Of Death said:


> "The Perfect Weapon" was good show; however, it think it will be the last big thing he does. He just doesn't have the Star quality to be the next big Action Star. Its good to see kenpo in the movies though.
> sean



Well considering the Perfect Weapon was made 18 years ago ..... I'd have to agree.


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## SL4Drew

eyebeams said:


> This reminds me of a woman I know who makes money from figure skating. She never made it to the Olympics though, so I'll go and imply she's a fraud.


 
Talk about a bad analogy. How an amateur competing in an international event is comparable to making direct-to-DVD movies, I can't figure.


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## KenpoDave

SL4Drew said:


> Talk about a bad analogy. How an amateur competing in an international event is comparable to making direct-to-DVD movies, I can't figure.


 
Well, it is rather simple...not making it to the Olympics does not mean that one is not able to make money figure skating, it just means that they are not one of the top 100 in the world.

The fact that Jeff does not appear on the big screen does not mean that he does not make his living making movies.

Heck, I was in a movie once.  Made $80.  The fact that you haven't heard of me doesn't mean I didn't do it.  It just means the movie sucked.


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## rmclain

KenpoDave said:


> Well, it is rather simple...not making it to the Olympics does not mean that one is not able to make money figure skating, it just means that they are not one of the top 100 in the world.
> 
> The fact that Jeff does not appear on the big screen does not mean that he does not make his living making movies.
> 
> Heck, I was in a movie once. Made $80. The fact that you haven't heard of me doesn't mean I didn't do it. It just means the movie sucked.


 
Could also mean you were hired as a one-day "extra." 

R. McLain


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## Doc

KenpoDave said:


> Well, it is rather simple...not making it to the Olympics does not mean that one is not able to make money figure skating, it just means that they are not one of the top 100 in the world.
> 
> The fact that Jeff does not appear on the big screen does not mean that he does not make his living making movies.
> 
> Heck, I was in a movie once.  Made $80.  The fact that you haven't heard of me doesn't mean I didn't do it.  It just means the movie sucked.



I was in the "Karate Kid." Made more money working location site security than as an extra in the movie.  But, I was in it so technically, I made money in movies, and I'm an actor. "Frankly Scarlett  ..... "


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## John Bishop

Doc said:


> I was in the "Karate Kid." Made more money working location site security than as an extra in the movie.  But, I was in it so technically, I made money in movies, and I'm an actor. "Frankly Scarlett  ..... "



Me too.  I was in "The Dragon".   Funny story.  Edmund Jr. called a bunch of us and said that all the extras for the IKC scene had white gi's, and the director wanted some more variety.  So a bunch of us Kajukenbo guys brought our black gi's with us to be extras.


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## Doc

John Bishop said:


> Me too.  I was in "The Dragon".   Funny story.  Edmund Jr. called a bunch of us and said that all the extras for the IKC scene had white gi's, and the director wanted some more variety.  So a bunch of us Kajukenbo guys brought our black gi's with us to be extras.



Oh yeah, I remember that. Had to work those days. Seems we've all made money in "movies."


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## KenG

i was under the impression that sepulveda and or labounty promoted speakman to 7th....


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## toejoe2k

KenG said:


> i was under the impression that sepulveda and or labounty promoted speakman to 7th....


 
I'm pretty certain that at least one of those names are on his certificate (La Bounty - I've seen it with my own little eyes) along with some non-kenpo names...small ones like Danny Inosanto and Gokor Chivichyan. No, they're not Kenpo but, they are well studied, life-long martial artists. 

I'd be honored to have the even one of the names on that 7th cert. on any one of mine as I continue to rank. But, that's just me.

Peace,


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## Doc

toejoe2k said:


> I'm pretty certain that at least one of those names are on his certificate (La Bounty - I've seen it with my own little eyes) along with some non-kenpo names...small ones like Danny Inosanto and Gokor Chivichyan. No, they're not Kenpo but, they are well studied, life-long martial artists.
> 
> I'd be honored to have the even one of the names on that 7th cert. on any one of mine as I continue to rank. But, that's just me.
> 
> Peace,


Doesn't matter. No reason to rag on Jeff. He's does as good a job or better than a whole bunch of people, and wears a 7th better than most of them.


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## Blindside

toejoe2k said:


> I've seen it with my own little eyes) along with some non-kenpo names...small ones like Danny Inosanto and Gokor Chivichyan. No, they're not Kenpo but, they are well studied, life-long martial artists.
> ,



Inosanto was a kenpo guy, pre-Bruce Lee.


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## KenpoDave

rmclain said:


> Could also mean you were hired as a one-day "extra."
> 
> R. McLain


 
It could, but my name is in the credits.  I was on location for 2 days.


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## arnisador

Doc said:


> I was in the "Karate Kid." Made more money working location site security than as an extra in the movie.  But, I was in it



Hey! Can we spot you somewhere in it?

I was a first-tier extra in "Mad City"...meaning I was given a prop and specific direction (no lines, and only small group shots--save for one scene featuring only me that was shot but cut). It paid $5/hour, circa 1997. It was an interesting "hurry up and wait" sort of experience.


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## KenpoDave

arnisador said:


> Hey! Can we spot you somewhere in it?
> 
> I was a first-tier extra in "Mad City"...meaning I was given a prop and specific direction (no lines, and only small group shots--save for one scene featuring only me that was shot but cut). It paid $5/hour, circa 1997. It was an interesting "hurry up and wait" sort of experience.


 
I guess we are all "almost famous!"


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## bobquinn

Heavy is the head that wears the crown. I have met Jeff at many events and find him to be a good guy. 

Bob Quinn
ak ROTU


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## yorkshirelad

After watching Jeff Speakman's 40 min "come to Jesus" meeting, I watched 2 minutes of Ron Chapel on utube. Guess which one I learned more from? Most students want to learn. It would have suited him better, to use the time he had in Chile to teach Kenpo, instead of denigrating all bar 3 in the Kenpo community.

I also find it hard to believe , that Speakman is not in the art to make money, when he has a $600 DVD series for sale on his website. Why not instead, just sell the DVDs at just over cost, to cover the expense of production and the website?

Again, just my opinion.


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