# Aikido and women



## Yari (Mar 11, 2004)

Hi

THeres a thread about size and Aikido, which got me thinking about a discussion I had with a woman about Aikido being more sutable for women, since the gravity point /body fitted better to the way Aikido moves, and that was one reason why there were so many women in Aikido.

I didn't agree on that then, but today I just might give i a 50% correctness. What do you think?


/Yari


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## Aikikitty (Mar 11, 2004)

I've always been told that Aikido should be "easier" for woman to do (or learn more quickly) because of where our balance is and we supposedly move with our hips, etc.  And also that many guys are taught all their lives to be strong and move with the shoulders and use strength, etc.  I believe it depends on the person.  I'm NOT a quick learner and I'm very clumsy and I have a very hard time remembering to move with my hips.   I've seen quite a few new guys come in and they were able to pick up these things much faster than me!  For the coordinated women, it might be "easier" but for me, it's not!  Oh yeah, Aikido is the first and only Martial Art I've ever done so I haven't been trained to move or think differently first and then get into Aikido and have a hard time changing my thinking.  It's just my own clumsiness.  Again, I say it probably depends on the person.  :asian: 

Robyn  :asian:


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## theletch1 (Mar 12, 2004)

Yari,
     You raise some very good points as does Opal Dragon.  I've always heard the stories that aikido is better suited to women and smaller men.  We have some VERY big guys in my system.  My sensei is a big ole boy himself and moves as fluidly and does techniques as well as anyone.  I think it's more a matter of teaching yourself to keep your center and move with your hips.  Is it physiologically easier for women?  I really don't think so but I do think it may take a bit more time for a man to "re-train" himself to move properly and truly enjoy the grace of aikido and get past the hard core macho image that MA tends to envoke.


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## buddah_belly (Mar 14, 2004)

My Sensei is very tall and muscular (not body builder muscles but he's not chubby) and I'm short and chubby and a girl.  I think my advantage is my height (or lack thereof).  People in my class have to get really low to take my balance, but I don't have to get too far down to take theirs.  As for the hips and whatever, I'm not sure about all that but, I know that being short helps me.


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## theletch1 (Mar 22, 2004)

buddah_belly said:
			
		

> My Sensei is very tall and muscular (not body builder muscles but he's not chubby) and I'm short and chubby and a girl.  I think my advantage is my height (or lack thereof).  People in my class have to get really low to take my balance, but I don't have to get too far down to take theirs.  As for the hips and whatever, I'm not sure about all that but, I know that being short helps me.


Have you considered posting a response to the "Size versus Aikido" thread.  This response is directly related to the question that Paul (Mushin) originally posted.  Having to get really low to take your balance often times makes me have to change a technique to make it work for me.  But there are techniques that I'm sure you've noticed that you have a hard time using against someone who is significantly larger/taller than you are.  Your thoughts?


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## buddah_belly (Mar 22, 2004)

For some reason, the point I meant to make was that I'm a short fat girl and my Sensei is a huge dude and I can toss him like a ragdoll.  He can toss me around too though.  Is Aikido good for girls?  Heck yeah.  Is it good for guys...absolutely.  Aikido is what you make it.  That being said, it's been my observation however, that aikido isn't for everybody.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 22, 2004)

I think its good for both men and women. In my aikido class we had more men then women but when it came down to doing techniques every one was on an even plane as an attacker came into play.

We had big strong muscular guys attacking small thin women and they would send them on their merry way. I think the reason why most women study Aikido is because of the ease of using someones force against them by simply displacing them and sending them on their way instead of some of the other styles where you have bone meeting bone to block or attack.

I guess the path of lesse resistance.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## buddah_belly (Mar 22, 2004)

I may not really be the best one to comment about the bone on bone thing since I also do kung fu.


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## Yari (Mar 23, 2004)

I know that many Aikido people feel that hard against hard is wrong. And to some extent I feel the same. But...... life is full of buts.....

One day you going to hit on hard against hard, and the it's good to have the experience to know how to handle it.

So I think its the aproach in Aikido to be "soft"(responsive and according), then choosing to meet the approach with hardnessm but the situation can end sometimes with it being hard.

That being said I would like to hear about you kung-fu to hear how it works with your Aikido.

/Yari


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## theletch1 (Mar 23, 2004)

I've studied kenpo and a lot of the "hard" blocks that I learned there come in real handy during multiple attacker drills.  We actually have several applications for techniques which use a hard block at some point in it.  If you think about your atemi, though, you'll realize that you do indeed go for the "hard" stuff from time to time.  There is no such thing as soft atemi on the street.  As most techs in aikido do not require hard blocks, conditioning forearms and such for that type of contact is not as necesarry as in a style like kenpo.  Having said that I will say that the hard blocks should be a part (at least a small part) of your aikido training.  I gave a hard outward block to a training partner who threw a roundhouse and he looked as if I had nearly broken his arm.  It wasn't that the block was brutal, it was simply that he was taken by surprise at having the nerve bundle in the forearm popped with the hard edge of my forearm.  Yeah, there is most certainly a place for hard blocks in training in aikido simply to take the shock out of it should you miss a blend a little and have to take a thump while trying to bleed of the energy of uke.


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## buddah_belly (Mar 23, 2004)

I was going to say almost the same thing about the whole hard/soft issue. I think that whole thing is kinda silly. There are times that aikido is hard. There are times when kung fu is soft. There are times when you can be hard and still blend and flow. I'm not there yet, but I'm quite sure it's possible. 'Nuff said. 

As to the thing with kung fu. My instructor started out with kung fu like thirty years ago. Along the way, he discovered aikido as well, and now teaches both. He asked me to join the kung fu class as a method of ki/chi development. I haven't been doing kung fu very long at all, but I have noticed some moves that look an awful lot like aikido. My instructor has this theory that O'Sensei's time in China might have influenced what would become aikido, but that's beside the point. It's sometimes difficult to remember when to turn one set of techniques on and the others off. We joke a lot about our Aiki-Fu. I can see the benefits of both arts and I really enjoy both a lot. In the long run, I'm sure that many years down the road, they will compliment each other. Right now, I'm just trying to keep from being confused which is much easier said than done. I'm in a weird situation since the initial reason I picked up kung fu was ki/chi and not for fighting, kicking people in the head, self defense or anything like that.

*And I don't want to start a ki debate.  If you don't buy into ki that's cool with me.*


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## brothershaw (May 3, 2004)

Buddah belly its cool that you are doing aikido and kung fu, ( in your profile I saw choy lee fut). I have posted in the cross trainer thread.

Some people I have come across belive baguazhang and maybe tai chi have influenced aikido in addition to what Ueshiba already knew. For some reasons I beleive it but who knows.

I may be greatly wrong but I believe women may be more attracted to aikido than other arts because, they dont have to practice hitting things, and kicking etc. Taking throws are no picnic until you learn to how to roll and fall, but for somebody obeserving a class aikido can look alot less agrressive and painful than when you watch a kung fu or karate class ( in general).


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## buddah_belly (May 12, 2004)

I did karate (for a day) when I was kid.  It was right after the Karate Kid came out.  For some reason the martial bug never left me, even if karate wasn't my thing.  That being said, I couldn't tell you why women choose aikido over other martial arts.  I did it because I thought the hakama looked cool and I dated a guy with a Seagal complex several years ago, and wanted to see what the big deal was.  Little did I know that walking into that little metal building would change my life.  

As for hitting...let's not forget atemi.  It is an important part of what we do.  Not to mention that if you are a good uke, you might accidently clock someone from time to time.  I still have to throw a good committed punch.  But then again, I didn't really know that when I started.


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## Jenna (May 21, 2006)

I wouldn't say the reason that Aikido was better for women was because of centres of gravity or body shapes or any of that stuff. Aikido fits me perfectly because I am not so big or burly and so have less of a fighting chance at meeting a powerful opponent HEAD-ON in blocking and countering their strikes. But through the Aiki principles I can utilise what I have to my best advantage. And I FULLY believe that had my years of training been in Muay Thai, Wing Chun or any of those arts I would be NOWHERE NEAR as competent in my own defence as I know I am. Aikido I believe is the ONLY art to give women such an advantage over bigger and stronger opponents from the word go.  And nobody here to contradict so I think that means I am right about this. Can I get an amen?

Amen and hallelujah! 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## tempus (May 22, 2006)

The only issue that I have seen occur when it comes to size is if a mistake is made.  My wife does Aikido as well and I make sure we consentrate on striking to compensate for the size.  Let me explain.  My wife is 120 lbs and I am 205 lbs.  If she is defending herself against the average guy and makes a mistake she will have more issues then I will, since I can muscle my way out of a grip or muscle my throw or flip of the attacker if I loose their momentum.  She on the other hand needs to rely on strikes and distraction to get out of a grip to make a run for ir or go into a different technique.


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## theletch1 (May 22, 2006)

tempus said:
			
		

> The only issue that I have seen occur when it comes to size is if a mistake is made. My wife does Aikido as well and I make sure we consentrate on striking to compensate for the size. Let me explain. My wife is 120 lbs and I am 205 lbs. If she is defending herself against the average guy and makes a mistake she will have more issues then I will, since I can muscle my way out of a grip or muscle my throw or flip of the attacker if I loose their momentum. She on the other hand needs to rely on strikes and distraction to get out of a grip to make a run for ir or go into a different technique.


Erica and I are in the same boat as far as size goes.  Instead of working on strikes as a back up though we tend to work more on feeling every little nuance of energy from uke and making sure that she works the details of the technique on a much more finite level.  Does this mean I get to slop through because I'm bigger?  No, it just means that for the very reasons you've stated I can almost afford a slip now and then...she can't.


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## monkey (May 22, 2006)

The founder of aikido was a small man but yet Steven Segal is tall & dose it fine as most go to him for the late founders ways.Now as far as fermale-thier body has been build differant as they can take a bit more pain like birthing ect. so for them the art of gentile ways like judo-aikido ect are easy to adopt to their body motions.Arts that require a more brutile or hard form>I dont see to many females in the stpes of Yamaguchi or Oyama.Dont get me wrong there are many arts they do go after with gtreat suucess like Ninjusu-Tae Kwon Do -Kook sa won-Hapkido ect.Yamaguch was very hard as well Oyama & they did not except females(as far as I know)Maybe not too many wanted the deformed knuckles it takes for those arts.


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## Jenna (May 22, 2006)

tempus said:
			
		

> The only issue that I have seen occur when it comes to size is if a mistake is made. My wife does Aikido as well and I make sure we consentrate on striking to compensate for the size. Let me explain. My wife is 120 lbs and I am 205 lbs. If she is defending herself against the average guy and makes a mistake she will have more issues then I will, since I can muscle my way out of a grip or muscle my throw or flip of the attacker if I loose their momentum. She on the other hand needs to rely on strikes and distraction to get out of a grip to make a run for ir or go into a different technique.


Hey tempus san 
You MUSCLE your way out of a grip??? Tut tut tut **shakes head with hands on hips**. If I thought I would have to rely on strong-arming an aiki technique then I would not be doing Aikido at all. I am around 108lb which puts me well below average guy and even smaller guys. And likewise if you have lost the uke's momentum the technique is dead and you must restart his momentum by moving yourself and not by trying to push him around. 

I know I don't do Nihon Goshin but from what I have seen the principles of motion  are very much aiki-derived though please correct me if I am way off. But if your wife makes a mistake in a tech well, that is life. Happens to us all. Even you. But I would have to disagree with the notion that when a technique goes awry women should rely on strikes or forcing.

I appreciate NGA does it differently so please forgive my ignorance I just KNOW that Aikido is the perfect art for ladies who are not brawlers and bruisers and so to suggest that they are deficient because they cannot bring so much muscle to the technique is a terrible way to look at it. 

Sorry, I am not getting shouty or disrespectful because the aiki techniques in your art are more than good enough I just hope you encourage your wife to work through them because they DO work and are a fantastic advantage for the smaller women.

Anyway, got ice-cream? Oooh I could go a choc chip rightly after that tirade, LOL 

Sincere good luck to you both, I am envious!!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## tempus (May 23, 2006)

No disrespect taken.  There are some grips that I have had placed on me by bigger people that once they were locked in, or they are planted, that a strike was necessary to loosen up the grip to then perform a technique.  When I say strikes I am not meaning the brawler across the jaw type strike.  My strikes to loosen up an opponent usually consist of short tap to the knee, groin, floating ribs, or a pressure point spot.  It could also mean a pinch on the thigh.  I am suprised at how fast you get out of a head lock when you pinch a 200 lb man on the butt.

I would not say this is primarily focused on women, but also men.  I am from the thought process that not every technique I perform will be perfect, and that I will have to have a backup plan.  I know from my size that when Aikido is done right I am a rag doll and pay a heavy price, but when a mistake occurs my size and strength does give me an advantage.

I would also say that men do have the tendancy to muscle techniques in the beginning and some when making a mistake will not strike, but force the technique.  I had one person I worked out with try to muscle a leg sweep on me (I out weighed him by 60 lbs and was planted) after he lost the circle and he tore his ACL.  When I am attacking this other lower belt in my class he always make the mistake on the blend of not taking that second step and I end up planted tapping him on the head with my other hand to warn him of not stopping.  Two things we need to work on with him blending and if he gets me planted knee me to get me moving again to do the technique.

In summary the entire idea is never stop when beging attacked.  If your mess up, Ura into soemthing else and if you cannot Ura then strike to get things moving again.

Ok, I think I have rambled to many things together.  So now off to the boring meetings.


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## theletch1 (May 23, 2006)

Sounds like we mis-read what was being described as going all karate on someone when we should have read "atemi".  NGA is no different than any other aikido in the idea that the energy must continue to flow to make the technique work.  If done properly there should always be an even flow from beginning to end of the technique with no real need for a lot of atemi.  When it IS needed, then yes, a TARGETED strike would come in very handy so long as it is one that will get uke moving in the proper direction for the technique and not relied on to get you out of a botched technique.  Remember, atemi is like a gear shift...technique is the transmission.


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## matt.m (May 28, 2006)

You know, it is funny four really great hapkido practitioners I know are women.  Look, it is all about leverage and the redirection of while doing technique.  Earlier this month we had a tournament, of course Tae Kwon Do form and sparring, however there is always Hapkido form.  This is where the skillset is performed based on belt color.  One piece that stands out is the fact that a 115lb woman performer 10 of the 15 one arm throwing techniques effortlessly.  Although let it be noted that a 5'2 man did the same techniques on his partner that outweighed him by 60lbs and was a foot taller.

So it isn't so much that Aikido is easier for women, it comes down to doing the technique correctly


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## Buddha1 (Jun 10, 2006)

For those women who feel strength and/or size is important in Aikido - 

There is a 9-year-old girl in my dojo who is able to flip 90 kg men with ease.


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## Jenna (Jun 10, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> For those women who feel strength and/or size is important in Aikido -
> 
> There is a 9-year-old girl in my dojo who is able to flip 90 kg men with ease.


Yes my Buddha friend  .. and that is JUST with her ONE arm 

And this is if you break it down to its root is a simple application of redirection of ukes impulse and momentum coupled with the appropriate knowledge of how his joints move or do not move and the key is in the very simplicity of the Aikido technique which can be learned in an hour and mastered over a lifetime

You do well to post this grasshopper 

You be good now,
Jenna


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## Yari (Jun 12, 2006)

Buddha1 said:
			
		

> For those women who feel strength and/or size is important in Aikido -
> 
> There is a 9-year-old girl in my dojo who is able to flip 90 kg men with ease.


 
I both agree and disagree on this.

I agree because the princeple is correct and would work no matter size.

But applied in real life the principle becomes more complex, and then size(wieght/mass/point of center) matters.

/Yari


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## theletch1 (Jun 15, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> I both agree and disagree on this.
> 
> I agree because the princeple is correct and would work no matter size.
> 
> ...


Yari, if done perfectly size shouldn't make any difference at all either in the dojo or on the street.  I think what makes the big difference in the street are the psychological aspects of the confrontation.  In the dojo there is a comfort level and a confidence that a large uke isn't there to hurt you.  Throw in the adrenaline rush and fear of someone three times your size actually trying to abduct you and things change.  Is that what you meant by agree and disagree?


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## matt.m (Jun 15, 2006)

I have never taken an Aikido class, however I do take hapkido.  The similiarities are there in the respect that if you know the technique you will do well.  If you don't then you don't.....I have known women that are outstanding in hapkido, I mean the cats meow.  I have also seen women who just buckled and quit.  

It is the same for men.  I think with the lower center of gravity, for most women, it is great for Aikido, Judo and Hapkido.

Just a thought.


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## Yari (Jun 16, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Yari, if done perfectly size shouldn't make any difference at all either in the dojo or on the street. I think what makes the big difference in the street are the psychological aspects of the confrontation. In the dojo there is a comfort level and a confidence that a large uke isn't there to hurt you. Throw in the adrenaline rush and fear of someone three times your size actually trying to abduct you and things change. Is that what you meant by agree and disagree?


 
Yes, I agree ;-)

Thank you!

/Yari


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