# Looking for info. on Los Altos karate.



## furryfury (Apr 4, 2006)

I am scheduled to interview with the owner of the school for an instructor position at a new location they are opening up in my town. I am trying to find out if anyone has any opinions of the business practices of that school. Please feel free to voice your opinions on the matter. I only have till tomorrow for the interview and I really want to go in fully informed. Thanks my brothers.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 4, 2006)

Please send me a Private Message.  I visited the school quite some time ago.  I also know a couple people who've trained there.  I'm pretty familiar with the martial arts schools in the mid-Peninsula and South Bay.  I have some opinions.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 4, 2006)

FurryFury:

I notice from your profile that your arts are Wing Chun and Tae Kwon Do...

So...

What would you think if your Wing Chun school owner hired someone with no Wing Chun experience to teach you Wing Chun?

And why would a Kenpo school hire a Wing Chun/TKD guy as an instructor?


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## furryfury (Apr 4, 2006)

While I appreciate your concern. I have a very ecclectic background in several martial arts. Wing chun and TKD are just the core styles I have been trained in. Of course I will be trained in the system of Kempo that they teach before I start as an instructor. 

Have you cross-trained in another style before? How about several styles, including Yoga, Chin Na, Escrima and Judo among others. If you have, then you know that after a certain amount of time a person's body can become very adept at mimicking and then fully learning the movements and the flow of energies in a particular style. Especially going into a standup style based on forms of Karate and Kungfu. 

Can you really tell me that after I've mastered Taekwondo techniques and Wing Chun techniques along with my other training that Kempo will really be that hard to learn? Not to mention the fact that my Wing Chun Sifu was Trevor Haines. Whose base style is 5 animal Kempo. A class that I participated in from time to time to get the flavor of the style. 

You know what Bruce Lee said in the "Tao of Jeet kune do" 
When you don't know how to punch, a punch is just a punch.
When you learn to punch it becomes a complicated series of movements.
When you've mastered the punch, a punch is just a punch. 

Well that's where I am currently. If that makes any sense.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 4, 2006)

Furry:

I'm not saying you won't be able to learn Kempo quickly....  But your post didn't ask about learning Kempo, it said you are interviewing for a position as an instructor.  There is a difference between being able to learn quickly and being able to provide quality instruction in a style.  But, I suspect that actually knowing Kempo at an advanced level is not a requirement for teaching Kempo at Los Altos Karate.  But, you don't have to know anything about cooking to flip a burger at a McDonalds either....


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## Flying Crane (Apr 4, 2006)

furryfury said:
			
		

> While I appreciate your concern. I have a very ecclectic background in several martial arts. Wing chun and TKD are just the core styles I have been trained in. Of course I will be trained in the system of Kempo that they teach before I start as an instructor.
> 
> Have you cross-trained in another style before? How about several styles, including Yoga, Chin Na, Escrima and Judo among others. If you have, then you know that after a certain amount of time a person's body can become very adept at mimicking and then fully learning the movements and the flow of energies in a particular style. Especially going into a standup style based on forms of Karate and Kungfu.
> 
> ...


 
I would say Alan asked what most of us here might think was a legitimate question.  Seems to me like your reply was a bit aggressive, maybe even condescending.  If I am mistaken and that was not your intention, then I apologize and I'll back off.  But considering these are your very first posts on MT you might consider the tone of your reply when someone asks a question.  Just a suggestion from one citizen to another.


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## furryfury (Apr 4, 2006)

No, I wasn't trying to be aggressive or condescending. I was just hoping to get some feedback on the school itself. Instead, it felt like my ethics were being questioned and yeah, I got a little defensive. I know that I wouldn't teach something I didn't feel completely comfortable with. It's too bad my first post had to start this way. I wasn't trying to start anything. I just wanted an answer to my question.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 4, 2006)

furryfury said:
			
		

> No, I wasn't trying to be aggressive or condescending. I was just hoping to get some feedback on the school itself. Instead, it felt like my ethics were being questioned and yeah, I got a little defensive. I know that I wouldn't teach something I didn't feel completely comfortable with. It's too bad my first post had to start this way. I wasn't trying to start anything. I just wanted an answer to my question.


 

Fair enough.  Cheers, and welcome to the forum!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 4, 2006)

furryfury


You seem to have some good martial arts experience.  I am also a big advocate of cross training--I think it something everyone MUST do.  And I'm not questioning your ethics.   I am questioning the ethics of the school. 

Is the school recruiting you to teach Wing Chun, Tae Kwon Do, to cross-train the students, or to teach some other athletic or spiritual process for which you are qualified?  If so, fine, wonderful, bravo.  

Or, do they want you to teach Kempo?  Can't they find someone with Kempo experience?  Don't they have some other Kempo schools they are affiliated with?  Can't they develop their own students' proficiency to home-grow an instructor?  It's not like they just opened last week; they've been open for many years.  

Anyway, if you want to know what I think of the school, I'll tell you.  Based on one visit and on some discussions with former students I think they are overpriced and not very high quality.  Maybe I'm wrong -- I certainly don't know everything that they do -- but that is my impression.  On the positive side, I do know one person who's family members realy enjoy the school.  You can search my posts to find what I've said about them elsewhere on the forum.


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## dianhsuhe (Apr 5, 2006)

_"Can you really tell me that after I've mastered Taekwondo techniques and Wing Chun techniques along with my other training that Kempo will really be that hard to learn? Not to mention the fact that my Wing Chun Sifu was Trevor Haines. Whose base style is 5 animal Kempo. A class that I participated in from time to time to get the flavor of the style."_

Wow!  You have mastered both WC and TKD?  Why are you interested in "teaching" kempo in lieu of those two others?  How long have you been training?  After 13 years I am still trying to get the hang of just Kempo....and I definitely cannot envision a time where I will feel that I have "mastered" ANY technique. my .02

It does seem strange to me also as Old fat Kenpoka mentioned, that they cannot seem to "home grow" a qualified instructor.  I am not familiar with this particular school or what style they might teach so I do not want to be judgemental or negative but this all seems odd to me-  How about more info.??

I wish you the best of luck in your venture!

james


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 5, 2006)

http://www.losaltoskarate.com/


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## furryfury (Apr 5, 2006)

Ok guys, I went to the 3 hour orientation today. Ren Leffew said that the training to earn a black belt takes 6 months and I think about 8 hours a day. Five days a week. It seems pretty exaustive. 

There were a few things that made me uncomfortable. Like obviously the training schedule. They also require that you sign up 10 people for the school, which will be opening in 2-6 weeks. That's to get your foot in the door. And then sign up 10 people for each rank in belt you obtain. 

They only have "private" classes and specialty classes mainly. The private classes actually have up to 4 students per class. The prices seemed kind of high for packages that started with 1 half hour class per week up to four half hour classes per week. 

They guys that were there all wore suits and had a very slick presentation. The curriculum they offered seemed to encompass too many elements to allow for mastery of any. They included but are not limited to Kempo, Jiu jutsu, Chin Na, Knife, Sword, Gun evasion, and many others. 

Over all I dont have a good feeling about it but I'm gonna go back on friday for an introductory class they are teaching, or selling, depending how you look at it. It seemed like the youngest guys in the room were the most eager to sign up. There was even a girl there that was kinda dressed like an exotic dancer if you know what I mean. One of the presenters kept staring at her while he was speaking. It was kinda weird. 

Let me know if you have any ideas on whether I should just forget it or if I should continue to investigate. I'll keep you updated on what happens. 

And about the inquiry about how I could have mastered TKD and WC. I am not the kind of guy to really stand here and say that I've truly mastered any art. I was using the word loosely to mean that I personally felt I had mastered the two arts to the degree that I could easily perform, demonstrate and communicate the techniques along with their particular energies. Keeping in mind that I have years of teaching background in many physical styles in the martial arts and well beyond it. Including Yoga and others. I was just trying to say that when you've crosstrained enough some peoples bodies become excellent mimics which enables them to learn certain things without the usually learning curve that most beginners face. Personally, my brain is just wired that way. So I'm confident that I can learn the style well enough in 6 months to teach a class to say, beginners to start. Maybe I'm wrong or just too confident in my abilities. What do you think?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 5, 2006)




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## Pacificshore (Apr 5, 2006)

furryfury said:
			
		

> Ok guys, I went to the 3 hour orientation today. Ren Leffew said that the training to earn a black belt takes 6 months and I think about 8 hours a day. Five days a week. It seems pretty exaustive.
> 
> There were a few things that made me uncomfortable.


Stick to your gut instincts


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 5, 2006)

furryfury said:
			
		

> Ok guys, I went to the 3 hour orientation today. Ren Leffew said that the training to earn a black belt takes 6 months and I think about 8 hours a day. Five days a week. It seems pretty exaustive.


 
So what % of your time is Kempo training, what % is sales training, and what % is business management training? Do you have to pay for this training while you are working for them full-time? Is the training more expensive than the salary? Would you be contractually bound to work for them for a set period of time after the training in order to repay the training cost? 



			
				furryfury said:
			
		

> There were a few things that made me uncomfortable. Like obviously the training schedule. They also require that you sign up 10 people for the school, which will be opening in 2-6 weeks. That's to get your foot in the door. And then sign up 10 people for each rank in belt you obtain.


 
What city is the new school opening in? They have or had a satellite in San Carlos for a while...

Are you saying that you get a belt rank promotion for every 10 people you sign up? Do you start as a Black Belt after the six month training or do you start the day you say "yes" with zero training? If you start as a Black Belt...Do you get to 10th degree Black Belt when you hit 100 students?



			
				furryfury said:
			
		

> They only have "private" classes and specialty classes mainly. The private classes actually have up to 4 students per class. The prices seemed kind of high for packages that started with 1 half hour class per week up to four half hour classes per week.


 
That was my impression when I visited -- the most expensive school I found. Higher in fact than top notch schools like Ralph Gracie, John Sepulveda's Kenpo, American Kickboxing Academy, Ernie Reyes West Coast Karate. Even higher than United Studios of Self-Defense.



			
				furryfury said:
			
		

> They guys that were there all wore suits and had a very slick presentation. The curriculum they offered seemed to encompass too many elements to allow for mastery of any. They included but are not limited to Kempo, Jiu jutsu, Chin Na, Knife, Sword, Gun evasion, and many others.
> 
> Over all I dont have a good feeling about it but I'm gonna go back on friday for an introductory class they are teaching, or selling, depending how you look at it. It seemed like the youngest guys in the room were the most eager to sign up. There was even a girl there that was kinda dressed like an exotic dancer if you know what I mean. One of the presenters kept staring at her while he was speaking. It was kinda weird.
> 
> Let me know if you have any ideas on whether I should just forget it or if I should continue to investigate. I'll keep you updated on what happens.


 
I think you should continue to investigate. I think you should also ask the Better Business Bureau and the Santa Clara District Attorney's office to investigate. At the very least, you should document your experiences on www.bullshido.com



			
				furryfury said:
			
		

> And about the inquiry about how I could have mastered TKD and WC. I am not the kind of guy to really stand here and say that I've truly mastered any art. I was using the word loosely to mean that I personally felt I had mastered the two arts to the degree that I could easily perform, demonstrate and communicate the techniques along with their particular energies. Keeping in mind that I have years of teaching background in many physical styles in the martial arts and well beyond it. Including Yoga and others. I was just trying to say that when you've crosstrained enough some peoples bodies become excellent mimics which enables them to learn certain things without the usually learning curve that most beginners face. Personally, my brain is just wired that way. So I'm confident that I can learn the style well enough in 6 months to teach a class to say, beginners to start. Maybe I'm wrong or just too confident in my abilities. What do you think?


 
Did your 3-hour interview include any martial arts practice? Was there any attempt to assess your martial skills or teaching ability? I suspect not. To me, It's pretty clear that selling ability is more important than martial arts or teaching ability.


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## furryfury (Apr 6, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> So what % of your time is Kempo training, what % is sales training, and what % is business management training? Do you have to pay for this training while you are working for them full-time? Is the training more expensive than the salary? Would you be contractually bound to work for them for a set period of time after the training in order to repay the training cost?
> 
> 
> Im not sure what % of time is spent on what. But it seemed like most of the time is spent training in the art. They offer a base per week plus commission per person you sign up. They didnt say anything about a contract binding me.
> ...


 

They didnt mention one word about my teaching ability. They haven't even asked for my resume. I think your right about the sales focus of their company. By the way, I just wanted to say sorry to you personally for getting defensive at the beginning of this thread. I overreacted.


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## furryfury (Apr 6, 2006)

How do you quote each section seperately? My answers are buried in your quote on my last message.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 6, 2006)

furryfury said:
			
		

> How do you quote each section seperately? My answers are buried in your quote on my last message.


 
You have to cut/paste or type the brackets with the words "quote" and "/quote"

Some more questions for you to consider...

So after 6 months of exhaustive training, you are still a relative beginner in Kempo.   How are you going to learn more Kempo if you are way out in Folsom?

If you want a job teaching martial arts, why don't you get a job at the YMCA or city parks & recreation dept, or the community college, or just open your own club renting space at a school or rec center or church?

If you want a sales job, why don't you get a job selling cars or motorcycles or at the local 24 hour Nautilus center?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 6, 2006)

furryfury said:
			
		

> There were a few things that made me uncomfortable.
> 
> The prices seemed kind of high for packages that started with 1 half hour class per week up to four half hour classes per week.
> 
> ...


 
Based on your comments above, I think you already know the answer.

Personally, just for the experience of seeing how this kind of operation works, it might be a good idea to go along for another session.  Just don't give them any money or sign anything. If you gotta give them money or sign something, it is time to walk away.  In the meantime, it might be worth the entertainment, and it might be eye-opening.


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## dianhsuhe (Apr 6, 2006)

It definitely sounds like you have a firm grasp on what is going on there... I have never read a post that typifies a "McDojo" more than your encounter does, and that is sad.

I can only speak for myself but I would run far away and I would not spend/waste any more time with it, there are WAY too many good schools to visit!

How did you hear about this place anyway, they put an ad in the paper or sumthin'?

Take care and keep us posted!

James


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## Kenpobuff (Apr 7, 2006)

I agree with Flying Crane.  If you have the time to sit through another "time share" presentation go for it.  You will get a good view of the other side of the commercialized version of the martial arts world.  Again, don't sign anything.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 7, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Personally, just for the experience of seeing how this kind of operation works, it might be a good idea to go along for another session. (...) In the meantime, it might be worth the entertainment, and it might be eye-opening.


 


			
				dianhsuhe said:
			
		

> Take care and keep us posted!


 


			
				Kenpobuff said:
			
		

> If you have the time to sit through another "time share" presentation go for it.


 
C'mon gang, now we are just abusing FurryFury to feed our voyeuristic obsessions.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> C'mon gang, now we are just abusing FurryFury to feed our voyeuristic obsessions.


 
Gotta get it somehow!

Seriously tho, a few years back I was contacted by a similar outfit who wanted me to teach in one of his schools.  I had a bad feeling about it from the start, but I went along for a visit and an interview just out of curiousity to get a glimpse of this side of the business.  It was a real eye-opener and I am glad I did it, but there was no way in hell I was going to work for them.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 7, 2006)

furryfury said:
			
		

> Ok guys, I went to the 3 hour orientation today. Ren Leffew said that the training to earn a black belt takes 6 months and I think about 8 hours a day. Five days a week. It seems pretty exaustive.
> 
> There were a few things that made me uncomfortable. Like obviously the training schedule. They also require that you sign up 10 people for the school, which will be opening in 2-6 weeks. That's to get your foot in the door. And then sign up 10 people for each rank in belt you obtain.
> 
> ...


 
Old Cheech and Chong bit about two guys walking through the windy, frozen tundra. One stumbles accross a suspisciously turd-like object in the snow.  Look like dooky? Yep, the other agrees...look like dooky. Smell like dooky? Yep, the other agrees (after having it shoved in his nose)...smell like dooky. Taste like dooky? Yep, the other agrees (after being forced to taste it). Taste like dooky.

"Good thing we no step in it, yes?" 
Yep, the other agrees (with a snoot full of poop). Good thing.

If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd and tastes like a turd, chances are...that's right. It's a turd.

Run, Billy. Run from the scary guys with the cheesy sales pitch, and don't look back. They are interested in making money off your back, and are counting that -- after you have locked some 10-per-belt folks into high-priced, binding contracts, that you will either lose faith and leave (leaving them the students and income), or continue on, working your tail off to sign up more and more people for higher and higher rank, so that they get to buy investment property in the Bahama's. Capiche?

Now g'wan..Git!

Best Regards,

Dave


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## dianhsuhe (Apr 7, 2006)

"Sans sugar" eh Dave?

Great post!


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