# Mook Jong form... slow or fast?



## Seeker (Aug 25, 2009)

We have this thing where we try and do the form in a minute or less. Does anyone else to this? 

From what I see, it tends to make people flail around the thing and very few people can do it with proper form.


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## hunt1 (Aug 25, 2009)

Looks like you answered your question yourself.

 Of all the things the dummy teaches the hands are the least important. When people go fast what do they focus on? Their hands! 

One of the things that makes some wing chun teachers say"Why bother".


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## geezer (Aug 25, 2009)

hunt1 said:


> Looks like you answered your question yourself.
> 
> Of all the things the dummy teaches the hands are the least important. When people go fast what do they focus on? Their hands!
> 
> One of the things that makes some wing chun teachers say"Why bother".


 
I'm totally in agreement on  both of you on this. Yet what do you see on youtube... usually somebody trying to be super-fast and super-loud as they smack the dummy arms.


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## chisauking (Aug 25, 2009)

Nothing wrong in going fast......as long as you are capable of handling at that speed.

In practice, one needs slow & fast. For example, if you have set-up your mook jong well, the jong will rebound all its energy back at you after hitting it, so you must be fast in order to intercept the jong's 'attack'.


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## Seeker (Aug 27, 2009)

Thank you Hunt1 for confirming what I suspect.


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## matsu (Aug 28, 2009)

sifu says its about sticking to the dummy,not just making a lot of noise,and that most sifu's actually can hear when their students are doing the form correctly or not!
matsu


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## geezer (Aug 29, 2009)

matsu said:


> sifu says its about sticking to the dummy,not just making a lot of noise,and that most sifu's actually can hear when their students are doing the form correctly or not!
> matsu



I've heard that too, and _it makes perfect sense_. If you stick to the arms, they make a different sound than if you hit and release them. Moreover, the precise direction of your energy changes the sound. Whether the arm slaps sideways against the flat of the mortise or clicks up into the corner, and so forth. Then there is the sound of the rebound of the body springing on the slats. Finally, I'd imagine that, like different musical instruments, different dummies would vary a bit.

My chief instructor lives out of state, perhaps on his next visit I should get a good audio recording of him working on my dummy so I could have another reference to improve my technique! ...Then again, maybe I should just train harder on what I know and the rest will come in time.


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## Jimi (Sep 1, 2009)

I am glad to see this discussed. I have a Mook (Muk) Jong from Master Clark Thorton, it is a JKD free standing dummy (Set on 4 steel legs w/ rolling casters)The trunk is quite heavy and I do not get the same rebound as a dummy set in a wall mount. It is not as flexable in response. Because the rolling casters lock I can make it stand its ground (I am a superheavy weight so I like that) although I can also let the wheels roll free and when I give energy it will pivot, roll way and adjust. If the flooring is very smooth (Polished conc. driveway or tile etc) and allows the wheels to roll well my lop sao will even pull it in alittle. LOL. Gotcha.  I can even lock two of the rear whells (alternating for variations) so it will typ. pivot in one direction or the other. I play around w/ varations a little. LOL.

My Instructors Mook is traditional and wall mounted so I get to play w/ rebound some when I have access. His dummy is set at a lower height because he is a hand full of inches shorter than I, so my stance (Ma Bu) etc shallows up and brings me a little tighter than my own dummy. I know some will argue my dummy is dead due to it not being traditionaly wall mount and abscent the rebound, but let us all remember that Yip (Ip) Mans dummy in HK that was wall mounted was the 1st one to be mounted so. It is said that Yip (Ip) Man dummy in the Main Land of China was a post varation set into the earth. (So let all critical tongues be severed.) LOL.

As far as fast or slow, I think like some others that some fast and some slow can show benefits from both. As long as the speed does not get out of hand to loss form & structure and as long as slow does not hinder free flow & sticking to the dummy so to speak. I like to play many ways, it's all fun. PEACE


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## chisauking (Sep 1, 2009)

It's all good points, Jimi. Be as creative as possible on the jong. The limits is set only by one's imagination.

However, I personally feel the wall mounted jong on slats are by far the best way to setup the jong. This method provides invaluable feedback of energy in which the practitioner can work with, as oppose to a stake type of jong buried in the ground, which is 'dead' in feel. For example, one can't practice the jut & pow combinations, or pak & funhow, nor work on one's timing. This is possible on the 'live' jong because one can catch it on the rebound, which takes good timing & speed.

I might post a few clips of my jong in the future so that people can see what I'm talking about.


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## Jimi (Sep 2, 2009)

chisauking, and other MT members, please induldge me,

I understand and agree that the live play/rebound from a wall mounted mook is invaluable for sensitivity and timing. There is no doubt. 

I simply was referencing that the play/rebound from such a wall mount must have been abscent in the mook work before Yip (Ip) man moved to HK and started using his wall mount. 

The rebound has it's due respect, but this is no older than Yip (Ip) Man himself. Older practioners (Pre Yip/Ip Man HK era) did not have this rebounds benefit, unless it was hidden in the closed door students who never showed the wall mount LIVE mook sacred knowledge. 

Yim Wing Chun as far as I can see never had access to such a training device as the LIVE wall mount. May be difficult to research and prove one way or the other.

My restating my opinion was not to disrespect those w/ access to the more modern mook wall mount LIVE dummy and uphold it, as a matter of fact I assert it has greater benefit than a mook w/o such play for feedback. 

I absolutely do see the improvement with the use of a LIVE dummy for WC/JF and other trapping arts. I hope I am being understood. Not taking away a single thing from the more reactive Live dummy, just saying it is not the soul of the system itself. I guess I wanted to also assert that though the LIVE mook is a great boon to training WC, WC survived quite well w/o the LIVE mook for more than a generation or two.

Yes my dummy is dead & w/o rebound feedback and luckily I have access to a wall mount mook once to twice a week, so I am spoiled in that sense.

As to the topic of the thread, I feel fast for touch and go dexterity and slow for power & structure (This is absolutely where a live mook excells) given you are guided by a good Sifu or Instructor. 

Again I hope I am understood. I feel sometimes practioners do not see that such benefit has not always been in the system, yet it still thrived. Ya know what I am saying? 

PEACE


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## yak sao (Sep 6, 2009)

I ran across a quote. To paraphrase:
 if you beat on the dummy mercilessly, the dummy will exact its revenge by not teaching you relaxation, fluidity and angling. all important things to consider when fighting something other than a log.


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## geezer (Sep 7, 2009)

Jimi said:


> ...I simply was referencing that the play/rebound from such a wall mount must have been absent in the mook work before Yip (Ip) man moved to HK and started using his wall mount...
> 
> I absolutely do see the improvement with the use of a LIVE dummy... I guess I wanted to also assert that though the LIVE mook is a great boon to training WC, WC survived quite well w/o the LIVE mook for more than a generation or two.



OK, this is a bit off-topic, but regarding the evolution of the dummy itself, it is generally accepted that the older versions of the jong were made as heavy posts set into the ground. When Grandmaster Yip began teaching in Hong Kong, he had no dummy. If I remember correctly, according to Leung Ting's book _Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun,_ at that time Grandmaster Yip borrowed a dummy from a Weng Chun stylist and had a copy made for himself. When he had this installed in his Hong Kong apartment, it may then have been the first dummy mounted on rails. If so, there is a high probability that the rails were originally just a mounting device to protect the apartment walls, and the rebound effect was discovered_ by accident_. Over time adjustments would have been made to give us the "live dummy" we know today. 

Judging from what I see advertised, people continue to experiment. But, unless someone has a deep understanding of the principles of WC/WT, they mostly just come up with stuff that is of little serious use, or worse, has incorrect geometry and will teach poor structure.


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