# Is there a technique too brutal for you to use?



## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?

Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly this particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.

For me one of those techniques is the spinning elbow. It just seems so unbelievably devastating, and potentially life-altering that I do not think of it in my mind like throwing other elbows. It is something special, horrible, tricky and beautiful. I would never throw it without making a conscious moral decision that somebody deserved that technique in particular.

Do you have a technique you feel this way about?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

Outer leg twisting that you can hurt your opponent's knee joint side way. It's the only MA technique that has no counter as far as I know.  The regular leg twisting is banned in Judo tournament. The outer leg twisting is worse.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

I think it's a good and effective technique. And NO, for self defense, everything goes. Be real, it's NOT that easy to knock someone out. Even in the video, it took two or three tries to get a good one. This is simple, nothing fancy. That's the kind I like, no fancy pretty moves for show. Just effective.

I should have practice the spin elbow!!! Not just the spinning, but elbowing on pole is just as important. I tried elbow with the back of the arm like this, it's painful. So I decided just practice elbow on the forearm side. Now, I have to do the back side!!! It's going to hurt. But it's important because this is to the skull.


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2022)

Why do I get this feeling that this is one of those psychological experiments where we see if we can all out humble brag each other.


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## frank raud (Sep 6, 2022)

Yes. Would you like me to tell you about it in case your moral compass is " looser" than mine?


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## wab25 (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Outer leg twisting that you can hurt your opponent's knee joint side way. It's the only MA technique that has no counter as far as I know.  The regular leg twisting is banned in Judo tournament. The outer leg twisting is worse.



Can you show or explain what "outer leg twisting" is?


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## _Simon_ (Sep 6, 2022)

It's gotta be this one... hands down.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2022)

If the spinning elbow is allowed in tournaments then some assessment for safety must have been done.  

Lots of techniques can be lethal if landed the right way, but they can be less than lethal otherwise.  You just need to be certain the situation justifies it, and that you can defend that decision in trial, if need be.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 6, 2022)

This question seems a bit weird to me. The morality of using a technique in combat depends on the situation, not the "effectiveness" of it.

Would you be willing to ever use a gun or knife in combat? I certainly wouldn't ever want to. But if the only available way to protect a family member from a deadly threat was by shooting the attacker, I would be willing to do so. Maybe I'd have nightmares about it the rest of my life, but I'd do it.

Guns and knives are intended to kill. If you shoot or stab someone, there's a decent chance they're going to die (or possibly end up with some permanent crippling injury). I know a lot of unarmed fighting techniques. None of them are going to do anything worse than kill or permanently cripple someone. The vast majority will produce less severe results. If I would be willing to shoot someone as a last result in a self-defense situation, then I would certainly be willing to use less-lethal unarmed techniques.

The appropriate level of force depends on the situation. Lethal force can be justified in defending against a deadly threat. But I'm not going to shoot a kid for breaking into my car. I'm not going to gouge eyes in a sparring match. I'm not going to break my cousin's leg if he gets drunk and wants to fight me at a family picnic. 



Jared Traveler said:


> For me one of those techniques is the spinning elbow. It just seems so unbelievably devastating, and potentially life-altering that I do not think of it in my mind like throwing other elbows. It is something special, horrible, tricky and beautiful. I would never throw it without making a conscious moral decision that somebody deserved that technique in particular.


??? A spinning elbow can (if it lands perfectly) produce a nasty knockout. But no more so than any other power strike to the head. A good left hook, overhand right, roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, etc can all produce instant knockouts and sometimes structural damage like a broken jaw, a fractured eye socket, or (rarely) a fracture in one of the skull bones. But I'm not aware of any evidence that the spinning elbow produces a higher rate of life-altering injuries than any other power strike to the head.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> If the spinning elbow is allowed in tournaments then some assessment for safety must have been done.
> 
> Lots of techniques can be lethal if landed the right way, but they can be less than lethal otherwise.  You just need to be certain the situation justifies it, and that you can defend that decision in trial, if need be.


The legal aspect is always an important consideration. However not apart of my hesitation regarding the spinning elbow. If I use it, it will be justified legally.

But just because it's legal doesn't mean I want to hit them that hard. It would take the right person to really ask for something like that.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Outer leg twisting that you can hurt your opponent's knee joint side way. It's the only MA technique that has no counter as far as I know.  The regular leg twisting is banned in Judo tournament. The outer leg twisting is worse.


Are you talking about the inverted heel hook?




It's definitely one of the most destructive submissions out there. But like any move, there are counters. In fact there are multiple video instructional sets on how to set it up, counter it, counter the counter, counter the counters to the counter, and so on.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This question seems a bit weird to me. The morality of using a technique in combat depends on the situation, not the "effectiveness" of it.
> 
> Would you be willing to ever use a gun or knife in combat? I certainly wouldn't ever want to. But if the only available way to protect a family member from a deadly threat was by shooting the attacker, I would be willing to do so. Maybe I'd have nightmares about it the rest of my life, but I'd do it.
> 
> ...


First I agree there is no evidence I'm aware of that the spinning elbow is more brutal than other strikes. But the body rotation, combined with all the video evidence, have lead me to believe that if I throw it, I can likely expect a certain result. A result I'm not willing to dish out to just anyone, despite being able to justify it.

With that said, if they have earned it(by my own determination) I would certainly dish it out. But it would take a lot for them to earn it.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This question seems a bit weird to me. The morality of using a technique in combat depends on the situation, not the "effectiveness" of it.
> 
> Would you be willing to ever use a gun or knife in combat? I certainly wouldn't ever want to. But if the only available way to protect a family member from a deadly threat was by shooting the attacker, I would be willing to do so. Maybe I'd have nightmares about it the rest of my life, but I'd do it.
> 
> ...


Also lethal force is not something I have a problem using when objectively reasonable. Shoot them, stab them, run them over, throw them over a rail, whatever needs done, if they need stopped that badly.

With that said, not everyone that I could legally hit with a spinning elbow, am I willing to hit with it. If I can solve the problem another way, I'm inclined to do that in most cases. Not everyone who deserves to be hit, do I want to see hit that hard.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 6, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> have lead me to believe that if I throw it, I can likely expect a certain result


It's probably a good idea to distinguish between _throwing_ the technique and _landing it perfectly_. A perfectly landed spinning elbow has a decent chance of causing a knockout. But even high-level professional fighters don't land the spinning elbow perfectly the majority of times that they throw it. A decent percentage of the time it doesn't even land at all.


Jared Traveler said:


> A result I'm not willing to dish out to just anyone, despite being able to justify it.
> 
> With that said, if they have earned it(by my own determination) I would certainly dish it out. But it would take a lot for them to earn it.


The hoped for result from a well-executed and perfectly landed spinning elbow is a knockout. That's the same hoped-for result from most power shots to the head, whether from a punch, knee, kick, elbow, spinning or non-spinning technique. It's up to you what circumstances you feel would justify knocking someone out. If you aren't willing to do it in sportive competition, then don't do boxing, kickboxing, or MMA. 

For myself, I would be willing to knock someone out in a self-defense situation if I thought they posed a significant threat and I couldn't avoid, escape, or defuse the situation and I wasn't sure that I could just control them without causing injury. The spinning elbow wouldn't be one of my go-to moves just because spinning techniques can be risky and I'm not as good at it as I am other striking techniques.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's probably a good idea to distinguish between _throwing_ the technique and _landing it perfectly_. A perfectly landed spinning elbow has a decent chance of causing a knockout. But even high-level professional fighters don't land the spinning elbow perfectly the majority of times that they throw it. A decent percentage of the time it doesn't even land at all.
> 
> The hoped for result from a well-executed and perfectly landed spinning elbow is a knockout. That's the same hoped-for result from most power shots to the head, whether from a punch, knee, kick, elbow, spinning or non-spinning technique. It's up to you what circumstances you feel would justify knocking someone out. If you aren't willing to do it in sportive competition, then don't do boxing, kickboxing, or MMA.
> 
> For myself, I would be willing to knock someone out in a self-defense situation if I thought they posed a significant threat and I couldn't avoid, escape, or defuse the situation and I wasn't sure that I could just control them without causing injury. The spinning elbow wouldn't be one of my go-to moves just because spinning techniques can be risky and I'm not as good at it as I am other striking techniques.


Landing techniques on opponents outside a ring or cage can in theory be challenging. But in reality its rarely as changeling as what one faces in competition. Something you would struggle greatly to accomplish in a ring, can be really easy to accomplish outside of it. Although there are always confrontation that would be an exception to this.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 6, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?
> 
> Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly this particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.
> 
> ...


There are many techniques that are not appropriate for training with partners outside of a very controlled environment.  Obviously I would not use such a strike against a training partner, and I do not compete - even when I did, it wasn't full-contact tournaments.

I would only fight these days to defend my life.  If that is indeed the case, I'll use anything and everything I can to end the fight quickly and leave.  Assuming that I am truly a victim and not a mutual combatant or instigator, the attacker may expect to be permanently injured if I am able to do it.  I'll gouge eyes, rip off ears, destroy knees or eardrums, kick or punch testicles, bite, whatever.  I have no obligation to further risk my own life to spare that of an attacker intent on ending mine, and I'm not going to mentally search through my skillset for less-lethal responses; he gets what he gets.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2022)

I wonder if there is a technique that would actually send an assailant’s soul to the ninth level of Hell for all eternity, rather than simply kill him.  That one might pose a bit of a moral quandary.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 6, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I wonder if there is a technique that would actually send an assailant’s soul to the ninth level of Hell for all eternity, rather than simply kill him.  That one might pose a bit of a moral quandary.


There is, but a person would have to be a master of Sinanju to know how to do it.


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## Buka (Sep 6, 2022)

When we were young teens we'd give guys a Texas tit twister. It was far from deadly, but it really sucked. I wouldn't do that today.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Can you show or explain what "outer leg twisting" is?


Your right leg twist on your opponnt's right leg. You use whole body weight to force his right knee to bent inward while his right foot is on the ground and cannot move. You won't kill your opponent. But you will damage his knee joint.

Just stand in horse stance (with bending knee) and use your own right hand to push your right knee inward while keeping your upper body verticle. You will get the feeling.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Are you talking about the inverted heel hook?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's the same principle as the move in your video. But it's used in stand up wrestling. The concept is to bend your opponent's knee side way while force his body to be vertical. If your body can bend along with your leg, you may escape out of it. But if your body is forced to be vertical (such as your opponent has head lock on you), there is no way to release that pressure on the knee joint (if your opponent has strong leg twisting power).


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your right leg twist on your opponnt's right leg. You use whole body weight to force his right knee to bent inward while his right foot is on the ground and cannot move. You won't kill your opponent. But you will damage his knee joint.
> 
> Just stand in horse stance (with bending knee) and use your own right hand to push your right knee inward while keeping your upper body verticle. You will get the feeling.


Oh, you're talking about standing, using a shin-to-shin lock to apply pressure to the knee? That's certainly counterable in a number of ways. Of course, the counter ideally starts before the person applying the technique has it fully locked in. Otherwise it's a bit like asking, how do you counter a punch that's already landed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Of course, the counter ideally starts before the person applying the technique has it fully locked in. Otherwise it's a bit like asking, how do you counter a punch that's already landed.


Another move that I can think of is the firemen's carry. When you lift your opponent over your shoulder, there is no counter after that.

IMO, the word "counter" can be misleading. If you can run faster than your opponent, none of your opponent's technique can work on you.  So running can be counter for all MA techniques.


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## wab25 (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your right leg twist on your opponnt's right leg. You use whole body weight to force his right knee to bent inward while his right foot is on the ground and cannot move. You won't kill your opponent. But you will damage his knee joint.
> 
> Just stand in horse stance (with bending knee) and use your own right hand to push your right knee inward while keeping your upper body verticle. You will get the feeling.


Looks like an osoto gari variation:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Looks like an osoto gari variation:


It's leg twist. Instead of using right leg to twist on your opponent's left leg, your use right leg to twist on his right leg. In training, you may release your twisting early to protect your opponent.

As far as I know, the leg twisting is not allowed to be used in Judo tournament.


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## skribs (Sep 6, 2022)

One of the things in using a gun in self-defense is that your objective is neither to wound nor to kill your assailant, but rather to stop the attack.


If I draw my gun, and my assailant gets scared and runs, then I stopped the attack without shooting. 
If I aim at my assailant's leg and shoot him, then I am more likely to miss (legs are smaller than center-of-mass), and I am still putting him at high risk of death if I hit the femoral artery.
If I aim at my assailant and hit COM, I am very likely to stop the attack.  If he dies as a result, that is unfortunate (but better than the alternative).
If I hit my assailant with birdshot or a .22 and he kills me, and then bleeds out 30 minutes later, then I failed to stop the attack.
As with @Tony Dismukes , if I am willing to use a gun in self-defense, I'm willing to use any other technique.  The result of any other technique is likely going to be less permanent and less severe than the result of actually using a gun in self-defense.


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2022)

skribs said:


> One of the things in using a gun in self-defense is that your objective is neither to wound nor to kill your assailant, but rather to stop the attack.



But a gun is basically going to kill or wound. 

If you didn't want to do precisely those two things. You would be using something else.


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Looks like an osoto gari variation:



There are hack way's to osotogari that will ruin a leg.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

I think perhaps explaining the nuances to this, will take a bit more articulation. There is a giant massive, mammoth world of difference between being willing to kill or seriously damage someone in theory. Versus using a particular technique on a specific person, given a specific set of circumstances, under time contrains. That's a lot harder, and that's the real trick.

Real encounters are not theoretical, they are highly contextualized, and unbelievably specific. In that realm I have often found myself in a position to legally do something, but I wasn't morally ready to do. Even though there was a moral justification. And this was not a safety concern, it was something that was justified, but not in my opinion something that needed to happen yet.

When I come across something I perceive to be potentially crippling, at least by my definition devastating, it warrants in my mind where this technique fits into not just my technical strategy, but my moral decision making in a confrontation.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

skribs said:


> As with @Tony Dismukes , if I am willing to use a gun in self-defense, I'm willing to use any other technique.  The result of any other technique is likely going to be less permanent and less severe than the result of actually using a gun in self-defense.


This makes sense in theory, but often not in application.


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## skribs (Sep 6, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> This makes sense in theory, but often not in application.


A gunshot wound is much more likely to result in death than anything I do with my bare hands.  A gunshot wound is much more likely to result in hospitalization than anything I do with my bare hands.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

skribs said:


> A gunshot wound is much more likely to result in death than anything I do with my bare hands.  A gunshot wound is much more likely to result in hospitalization than anything I do with my bare hands.


I don't disagree with that. That is not what I'm referring to. I'm trying to express that just because you are willing to use lethal force in one situation, given a specific set of theoretical circumstances, does not mean you are going to be willing to use a different, even lessor level of force, given a completely different, real specific situation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

During the ancient time, there is a set of techniques that you use against unfriendly challenger. It's called "black hand". The purpose is to cause perminant damanage on your opponent's body, so when bad reputation has been spread out, people will consider twice before challenge you. Since personal challenge is no longer popular today, the term "black hand" may disappear from the human history forever.

Examples of black hand.


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## skribs (Sep 6, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I don't disagree with that. That is not what I'm referring to. I'm trying to express that just because you are willing to use lethal force in one situation, given a specific set of theoretical circumstances, does not mean you are going to be willing to use a different, even lessor level of force, given a completely different, real specific situation.


But that's part of the theory, that there are situations that it's appropriate and situations that aren't.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

skribs said:


> But that's part of the theory, that there are situations that it's appropriate and situations that aren't.


Exactly. It depends on the circumstances. In one scenario for instance I would shoot a 5'2" woman, in a nother scenario I wouldn't even push her, even if she really deserved it. Each situation is unique.


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## Holmejr (Sep 6, 2022)

“…violence is almost never the answer. But when it is, it is the only answer, and *we all need to be prepared for it.*” Larson. 

If confronted with deadly force, I would see no choice.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> “…violence is almost never the answer. But when it is, it is the only answer, and *we all need to be prepared for it.*” Larson.
> 
> If confronted with deadly force, I would see no choice.


Holmejr, reference my original post. I hope if your goal is to seriously injure or kill someone it is a conscious moral decision? The same way I don't think of using a gun, in the same manner I think of pinning someone to the ground. One takes (or should take) a very intentional decision, based on a very specific situation. The other I have more grace with applying and is not quite the mammoth moral decision.

I think Larson, or any respectable use of force instructor would agree that pulling the trigger should be a conscious, deliberate decision in the moment, based on the totality of the situation. I don't think casually about drawing and firing a gun at another human, neither do I think casually about hitting them with a spinning elbow. 

I will post my original verbage here for reference:
Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly this particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.

For me one of those techniques is the spinning elbow. It just seems so unbelievably devastating, and potentially life-altering that I do not think of it in my mind like throwing other elbows. It is something special, horrible, tricky and beautiful. I would never throw it without making a conscious moral decision that somebody deserved that technique in particular.

Note: I think we are in agreement. 😊


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 6, 2022)

skribs said:


> One of the things in using a gun in self-defense is that your objective is neither to wound nor to kill your assailant, but rather to stop the attack.
> 
> 
> If I draw my gun, and my assailant gets scared and runs, then I stopped the attack without shooting.
> ...


This is all true and we'll stated. And part of this process is making a decision at that moment and selecting a method or technique. 

None of the above is inconsistent with my original post.


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## drop bear (Sep 7, 2022)

skribs said:


> But that's part of the theory, that there are situations that it's appropriate and situations that aren't.



I think you might be hard pressed to beat a guy to death. Regardless of the motivation to do so.


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## skribs (Sep 7, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> This is all true and we'll stated. And part of this process is making a decision at that moment and selecting a method or technique.
> 
> None of the above is inconsistent with my original post.


This is the question from your original post:


Jared Traveler said:


> Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?


I do not question the morality of ever using any of my techniques, up to and including pulling the trigger on a firearm.  I do base my decision on what level of force to use based on the situation, but I do not question the morality of using everything in my power if needed.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 7, 2022)

skribs said:


> This is the question from your original post:
> 
> I do not question the morality of ever using any of my techniques, up to and including pulling the trigger on a firearm.  I do base my decision on what level of force to use based on the situation, but I do not question the morality of using everything in my power if needed.


"If needed" "Decision" "Based on the situation"

What are we arguing about? You are saying the same thing as me.


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## Holmejr (Sep 7, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think you might be hard pressed to beat a guy to death. Regardless of the motivation to do so.





drop bear said:


> I think you might be hard pressed to beat a guy to death. Regardless of the motivation to do so.


Beating takes on the connotation of a sustained action. In weapon training we concentrate on what can be done in 2 or 3 seconds. Although we train for many different scenarios, in weapon defense we seriously try not to spar. After training in stick/blade, things that will definitely kill you, it’s hard for me to think of a non armed confrontation as a deadly threat. Also, if someone pulls a knife on me at 4/5 feet away, I’m more likely to think scare tactic and a “here, take my wallet” moment.

Many many decades ago, I saw a guy parry a punch and clothesline trip the attacker. The attacker went down hard a spilt his head open. The defender freaked out, took his shirt off to help stop the bleeding. Police and ambulance came. I witnessed the self defense along with others. I don’t think the defender was ever charged, since I was never contacted. The initial physical confrontation took less than two seconds. Life changing two seconds.


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## skribs (Sep 7, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> "If needed" "Decision" "Based on the situation"
> 
> What are we arguing about? You are saying the same thing as me.


Your OP said "ever", not "based on the situation".


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 7, 2022)

skribs said:


> Your OP said "ever", not "based on the situation".


Please read the OP again.


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## wab25 (Sep 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's leg twist. *Instead of using right leg to twist on your opponent's left leg, your use right leg to twist on his right leg.* In training, you may release your twisting early to protect your opponent.
> 
> As far as I know, the leg twisting is not allowed to be used in Judo tournament.


Your first video did show right leg attacking right leg... just like osoto gari. Now you say that instead of using your right leg to attack his left leg... use your right leg to attack his right leg... yet the new video, clearly shows the right leg attacking the left leg???

This one is called Ouchi Gari:


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## skribs (Sep 7, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Please read the OP again.





Jared Traveler said:


> Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?


Nope.  It still says the same thing.  Maybe you forgot to edit your post to say something different?


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 7, 2022)

skribs said:


> Nope.  It still says the same thing.  Maybe you forgot to edit your post to say something different?


Wow! Read the whole OP.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Your first video did show right leg attacking right leg... just like osoto gari. Now you say that instead of using your right leg to attack his left leg... use your right leg to attack his right leg... yet the new video, clearly shows the right leg attacking the left leg???
> 
> This one is called Ouchi Gari:


There are different leg skill.

1. Slant cut (osoto gari) is either a 45 degree upward force.
2. Inner hook (Ouchi Gari) is a horizontal force.
3. Outer leg twist is a vertical downward force.

Both 1 and 2 are used to move your opponent's leg to be off the ground. 3 is used to control your opponent's leg and don't allow it to move.

1. Slant cut.







2. Inner hook






3. Outer leg twist


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 8, 2022)

The "leg twisting" is an interested technique. For all the throwing skill. I can always find a solo drill to train it. But there exist no solo drill for the "leg twisting". The missing solo drill for this technique is still a mystery to me.


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## JD Natan (Sep 13, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?
> 
> Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly those paving re
> particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.
> ...


No. Everything has its time to use. If someone attacks me, my only rule is don't get dead. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.


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## r.d.mcdaniel (Sep 13, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?
> 
> Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly this particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.
> 
> ...


  I trained in Kyokushin Karate. for a kill after a take down, when everyone else would do a punch to the head ( which probably would not end the fight ) Instead we would pull on the opponents leg to get them as flat as possible and then stomp the head, we would actually stomp right next to their head. This would likely end the fight and possibly kill the person. Would I actually use that? only if my opponent was trying to kill me.


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## Gyakuto (Sep 13, 2022)

Yes, ripping off an assailant‘s genitalia and ramming them into their eyes. One or the other…but for mercy’s sake, not both.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

I have a set of southern CMA called the Sup Juet Sao (10 Killing Hands), devoted to injuring your opponent (put together by a physician no less).

There's a technique for rupturing your opponents eardrums in there.  I'll dig up some pics.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?
> 
> Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly this particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.
> 
> ...


He fell down after connecting. I don’t see anything too deadly there.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Why do I get this feeling that this is one of those psychological experiments where we see if we can all out humble brag each other.


Lol! Awesome! You said it right!


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I have a set of southern CMA called the Sup Juet Sao (10 Killing Hands), devoted to injuring your opponent (put together by a physician no less).
> 
> There's a technique for rupturing your opponents eardrums in there.  I'll dig up some pics.



The 10 Hands are kind of a sensitive subject, so I'll try to give a balanced overview.

Here's a typical Lam (AKA Butcher Wing) family description.





						Training | Theory: 10 killing hands | Canadian Hung Kuen Association | Regina Saskatchewan
					






					fuhok.com
				




Here's a video from New York Hung Ga, just a demo, but notice the names have changed a little.  This is a Dang Fong school, as you can see by the Sun Toi.  This sifu is pretty fast. 





Great old post about this on KFM forum from a training cousin of mine.






						Wong Fei Hung s Ten Killing Hands Article
					

Wong Fei Hung's 10 Killing Hands    By Bill Fong    Of the many legends throughout martial arts history, there may be no greater than that of the great grandmaster Wong Fei Hung. During his lifetime (1850-1933) Wong Fei Hung achieved an unsurpassed reputation for martial skills and feats. His...



					www.kungfumagazine.com


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The 10 Hands are kind of a sensitive subject, so I'll try to give a balanced overview.
> 
> Here's a typical Lam (AKA Butcher Wing) family description.
> 
> ...


Well that was 6 minutes I will never get back. No disrespect intended to you or them, I am commenting purely on the quality(or the lack thereof) demonstrated in the video. Not very fast, and wholly unimpressive (silly costume notwithstanding).


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The 10 Hands are kind of a sensitive subject, so I'll try to give a balanced overview.
> 
> Here's a typical Lam (AKA Butcher Wing) family description.
> 
> ...


Why in the world is this “Sensitive subject”? It’s just basic stuff being performed by a mediocre(at best) practitioner.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Why in the world is this “Sensitive subject”? It’s just basic stuff being performed by a mediocre(at best) practitioner.


Lineage politics.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well that was 6 minutes I will never get back. No disrespect intended to you or them, I am commenting purely on the quality(or the lack thereof) demonstrated in the video. Not very fast, and wholly unimpressive (silly costume notwithstanding).


What costume, the saam?  It's the traditional uniform in many, many schools. 

Typical only the instructor wears one.  Sometimes senior students.

It's actually reinforced cotton, very strong, and made in Chinatown.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What costume, the saam?  It's the traditional uniform in many, many schools.
> 
> Typical only the instructor wears one.  Sometimes senior students.
> 
> It's actually reinforced cotton, very strong, and made in Chinatown.


I know what it is... I just don’t go in for the claptrap, no matter how “traditional” it might be. It’s fine for ceremony and fancy dinner, I’m not training in that.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I know what it is... I just don’t go in for the claptrap, no matter how “traditional” it might be. It’s fine for ceremony and fancy dinner, I’m not training in that.


I've never owned one myself.  

I train in sweat wicking gear, exclusively.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Lineage politics.


Who cares a damn for that? It’s 2022 in USA. We are not living in 18th century China. Should we be scared the lineage police will come get us? Pretty sure the Tong have better things to do these days.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I've never owned one myself.
> 
> I train in sweat wicking gear, exclusively.


There we go.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Who cares a damn for that? It’s 2022 in USA. We are not living in 18th century China. Should we be scared the lineage police will come get us? Pretty sure the Tong have better things to do these days.


I do, because I don't want to erk people on this board.

People get really sensitive about their sifus online.   There are whole web forums devoted to it.

This is a particularly controversial subject.  Here's a good take on it.  This is probably one of the best researched articles on the 10 Hands you'll find.









						Hung Kyun’s „Ten Lethal Bare Hand Techniques“ (Sap Duk Sau) - Practical Hung Kyun
					

Grand Master Wong Fei Hung, founder of „Modern Hung Kyun“, was one of the most famous Masters of Southern Chinese boxing. Among his special skills belonged long pole fighting, Fei Tou (weight attached to the rope) and so called „Ten Lethal Bare Hand Techniques“ (Sap Duk Sau), ten unique and...



					practicalhungkyun.com


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2022)

The oil check.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The oil check.


The perineum/anus is a target in some kung fu styles, too.  

It might actually be one of the 10 Killing Hands, now that I think about it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I do, because I don't want to erk people on this board.
> 
> People get really sensitive about their sifus online.   There are whole web forums devoted to it.
> 
> ...


Ok I read it. I watched the video of their students too. I didn’t see anything controversial, so to speak. I am still wondering why any of this is a thing. It’s very basic stuff. Is somebody claiming they have a patent on cuffing ears? That is ridiculous in the extreme. “I cuff ears better because its our tradition to cuff ears”.  …And we wonder why the MMA/BJJ crowd scoffs at us. Let the 10,000 ways guide us back.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The perineum/anus is a target in some kung fu styles, too.
> 
> It might actually be one of the 10 Killing Hands, now that I think about it.


Lol! Lil Jack Horner…


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The perineum/anus is a target in some kung fu styles, too.
> 
> It might actually be one of the 10 Killing Hands, now that I think about it.


Yep. It’s hard to take a kick there. I have caught one behind the cup before. My fruit salad got over ripe.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yep. It’s hard to take a kick there. I have caught one behind the cup before. My fruit salad got over ripe.


Did you catch that articles take on the oil check?

They said it was BS.

Most people think the oil check is a single digit.  It can be a whole fist, foot.


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## drop bear (Sep 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The perineum/anus is a target in some kung fu styles, too.
> 
> It might actually be one of the 10 Killing Hands, now that I think about it.



I see you know your oil checks. 

Oily dragon.


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## Steve (Sep 15, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The oil check.


100%


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## Darren (Oct 18, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?
> 
> Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly this particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.
> 
> ...


Was sparring this  third degree brown belt once did not mean to but caught him above his eye with a elbow. But in this day and age anything is on my menu in the street cause people don’t care anymore!!! And don’t even think about letting me allow ya to go to your car and/or home to allow ya to get something!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2022)

Use firemen's carry to lift your opponent over your shoulder and then smash his head onto the hard ground can be one of those "brutal techniques".


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## JD Natan (Oct 18, 2022)

Darren said:


> Was sparring this  third degree brown belt once did not mean to but caught him above his eye with a elbow. But in this day and age anything is on my menu in the street cause people don’t care anymore!!! And don’t even think about letting me allow ya to go to your car and/or home to allow ya to get something!!!


No. There are none. When dealing with non-consential violence the rules go out the door. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


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