# Shaolin Kung Fu



## british12 (Jan 31, 2007)

Hi,

I am was previously doing Kamon Wing Chun when I had to stop cos of work....now I was planning to go back into it again but then a friend gave me a website for shaolin website (Shoalin Wahnam Scotland) and thought WOW sounds amazing.........I have previously known nothing about this martial art..........
I dont know a great deal about shaolin as this is the first time I have come across it...............whats the major differences between Shaolin Kung Fu and Kamon Wing Chun?...........its not a question about whats better just the differences and what can I expect as a beginner from Shaolin? How long it can take, etc.  Whats your experiences of Shaolin.

There are classes running in Scotland that im interested in.

Your feedback will be helpfull and potentially help me decide whether to take up Shaolin Kung Fu or not.

Many thanks.


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## almost a ghost (Jan 31, 2007)

Well, first off, wrong forum 

I don't know the difference between Kamon Wing Chun and Ip style Wing Chun, but general Wing Chun is a stripped version of Kung Fu. So, Shaolin Kung Fu has all the flashiness and kicks that Wing Chun short cuts it's way through. As you maybe know, Wing Chun is a close range system, where with shaolin Kung Fu you'll have more long range.

Also, do you know, what kind of style of Shaolin Kung Fu it it? The name "Shaolin Kung Fu" is a generic term and isn't anymore discriptive than Japanese Karate.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Yup wrong forum you probably want to post this is Chinese martial arts general.

Wing Chun is close range and a southern style.

Shaolin is not as generic as Japanese Karate you would have to say Chinese Kung fu for that.

Shaolin Kung fu supposedly is from or has its origin in the Shaolin monastery in China. It covers short range but it is generally is considered longer range than Wing Chun. Also Shaolin is based on Animal forms where Wing Chun is not.

Shaolin tends to be a very external (hard) style where I feel Wing Chun is of a more Internal/External (hard/soft) Style

Shaolin
http://www.answers.com/topic/shaolin-kung-fu-1

Wing Chun
http://www.answers.com/topic/wing-chun

Chinese Martial Arts list
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-chinese-martial-arts


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## british12 (Feb 3, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup wrong forum you probably want to post this is Chinese martial arts general.
> 
> Wing Chun is close range and a southern style.
> 
> ...


 
You feel that Shaolin is more external...........thats interesting, I will give you a link for the Shaolin that im interested in and you can tell me its what you are referring it to.    its: - http://www.shaolinwahnam.co.uk/


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## Rook (Feb 3, 2007)

british12 said:


> You feel that Shaolin is more external...........thats interesting, I will give you a link for the Shaolin that im interested in and you can tell me its what you are referring it to. its: - http://www.shaolinwahnam.co.uk/


 


> Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit


 
This immediately tells me you should look elsewhere.  Wong Kiew Kit is not someone you want to be affiliated with.  I doubt you will get much in the way of historically authentic shaolin learning from him.


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## pete (Feb 3, 2007)

british12, Shaolin IS an *external *system, as is Wing Chun.  do not confuse hard and soft, fast and slow, or linear and circular in determining an external vs internal system.  there are different approaches to training, mind intent, and power generation.  Xingyi is hard, fast, and linear AND 
Internal, while Okinawan Karate is hard, fast, and linear, BUT external.

If your interested in either a Shaolin or Wing Chun school, you are best off visiting both and seeing for yourself which is better for you. Generally speaking, you'll be doing more forms work in Shaolin and more freestyle drills in Wing Chun, but different schools and lineages work differently, so again see for yourself what YOU feel would be the best fit for YOU.

pete


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## british12 (Feb 4, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Also Shaolin is based on Animal forms where Wing Chun is not.


 
What do you mean Animal Form?


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## Whitebelt (Feb 4, 2007)

A form is (as you probably know, but better safe than sorry) a seiries af set movements; attacks and blocks, executed against one or more imaginary attckers. These are allocated to students in order for the teacher to judge the students' understanding of the moves and streingth of stance.

An Animal Form is a form (above) mimicking the attributes of a particular animal. There are sevral animals in shaoling kung fu, I think the main five are Snake, Tiger, Leopard, Monkey and Crane, each with their own hand shape. 

A Monkey form tends to involve lots of looking around, keeping low and for some reason head covering. 

A tiger form tends to involve lots of gripping and ripping techniques with the hands held resembling a tigers claw.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 4, 2007)

Whitebelt said:


> There are sevral animals in shaoling kung fu, I think the main five are Snake, Tiger, Leopard, Monkey and Crane, each with their own hand shape.


 
I've seen various lists, and other Chinese arts can have up to twelve (XinYiQuan video from Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's website: _Twelve Animal Form and its Applications. _Sorry, don't have the link handy; can get it if anyone wants).

I learned the Five Animals as:

_*Tiger*_: Representing strength and courage
_*Dragon*_: Stealthy and smooth (rides the wind)
_*Leopard*_: Fast, short techniques
_*Crane*_: Graceful and good balance (some add, reach)
*Snake/Cobra*: Strong Chi as well as trunk strength (since no limbs)

For what it's worth.:soapbox: :uhyeah:


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## british12 (Feb 5, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> I've seen various lists, and other Chinese arts can have up to twelve (XinYiQuan video from Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's website: _Twelve Animal Form and its Applications. _Sorry, don't have the link handy; can get it if anyone wants).
> 
> I learned the Five Animals as:
> 
> ...


 
Thats really interesting to learn.................I didnt realise that was the case..........Shaolin sounds good I must say.......just by reading the descriptions.


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## Whitebelt (Feb 5, 2007)

QUOTEI've seen various lists, and other Chinese arts can have up to twelve (XinYiQuan video from Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's website: _Twelve Animal Form and its Applications. _Sorry, don't have the link handy; can get it if anyone wants).

Thaks for the correction kidswarrior

I have also heared of "Five Animals" including Pheonix and once even Praying Manis(although I think the school was slighltly questionable). 

Nice link to a list of some of the animals here.

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/animals.html


You're right, I have been loving Shaolin Kungfu!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2007)

Xingyi 10 Animals - older form

Bear
Eagle
Snake
Tiger
Dragon
Chicken
Horse
Swallow
Sparrow hawk or goshawk
Monkey

Xingyi 12 Animals - there are various translations of the 12 animals

Dragon
Bear
Horse
Tiger
Turtle
Snake
Monkey
Eagle
Swallow
Dove
Rooster
Falcon

But there are many animal forms within styles and there are styles that are entirely based on Animal forms

Example White crane spreads its wings is a posture in Tai Chi and there is a White Crane Kung fu style as well.

Chinese Martial Arts list
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of...e-martial-arts


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## Yeti (Feb 6, 2007)

Rook said:


> This immediately tells me you should look elsewhere. Wong Kiew Kit is not someone you want to be affiliated with. I doubt you will get much in the way of historically authentic shaolin learning from him.


Why do you say this? What is it about Wong Kiew Kit that makes him not someone to be affiliated with? Is his technique poor or is it more of a business issue with how he conducts himself? I'm honestly just curious. I've heard of him before and have read one of his books, but have not heard negative comments before.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 6, 2007)

Yeti, I love your signature line!! A great reminder for kung fu and really, all of life! -kidswarrior


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## Rook (Feb 6, 2007)

Yeti said:


> Why do you say this? What is it about Wong Kiew Kit that makes him not someone to be affiliated with? Is his technique poor or is it more of a business issue with how he conducts himself? I'm honestly just curious. I've heard of him before and have read one of his books, but have not heard negative comments before.


 
My issue with Wong is threefold.  

1.  He has a rather dubious lineage
2.  He attacks the lineages of many shaolin teachers that also claim descent from the shaolin temple.  
3.  He spouts psuedo-scientific crap like this http://www.wongkk.com/general/q-a22.html


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## Yeti (Feb 6, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Yeti, I love your signature line!! A great reminder for kung fu and really, all of life! -kidswarrior


Thanks!


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## british12 (Feb 8, 2007)

Whitebelt said:


> QUOTEI've seen various lists, and other Chinese arts can have up to twelve (XinYiQuan video from Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's website: _Twelve Animal Form and its Applications. _Sorry, don't have the link handy; can get it if anyone wants).
> 
> Thaks for the correction kidswarrior
> 
> ...


 
That list is very impressive.......I loved some of the descriptions there.................I wander how they would work out in a real life form?


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## kidswarrior (Feb 9, 2007)

british12 said:


> .......I loved some of the descriptions there.................I wander how they would work out in a real life form?


 
Maybe you could use your imagination and innovation in applying the animal concepts to existing forms, and make them truly your expressions. After all, we call what we do martial _art_, so I think it's OK to have fun with the art portion.


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## clfsean (Feb 9, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Maybe you could use your imagination and innovation in applying the animal concepts to existing forms, and make them truly your expressions. After all, we call what we do martial _art_, so I think it's OK to have fun with the art portion.


 
Bad idea... there are specifics that define animal techniques, theories & applications. Changing a punch to a claw hand shape does not make it a "Tiger". It makes it more likely somebody's about to break a finger or more.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 9, 2007)

clfsean said:


> Bad idea... there are specifics that define animal techniques, theories & applications. Changing a punch to a claw hand shape does not make it a "Tiger". It makes it more likely somebody's about to break a finger or more.


 
I don't recall advising changing any techniques, and especially didn't advocate using a claw hand (Tiger claw) in place of a closed fist strike. One _could--and in my opinion, often should--_use a palm heel strike instead of a closed fist, and might _then_ follow with a tiger rake, or.... But this is a technique, and I was speaking of _forms, _for which I believe the bunkai might be endless.

If you're going to start off with 'Bad idea' in response to another poster, you might want to carefully read/think about what the proposal really is.


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## Whitebelt (Feb 9, 2007)

clfsean said:


> Bad idea... there are specifics that define animal techniques, theories & applications. Changing a punch to a claw hand shape does not make it a "Tiger". It makes it more likely somebody's about to break a finger or more.



You're right, replacing a closed fist punch with a tiger claw would probably be disaterous unless the palm heel is used. Could be worthwile in a situation where you don't want to hurt you'r opponent. 

British12 has a good point, I'm confident that the techniques in the forms would make themselves quite useful. A snake strike into the throat is a very powerful technique, as can be crane snap kicks and leapoard strikes.


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## clfsean (Feb 9, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> I don't recall advising changing any techniques, and especially didn't advocate using a claw hand (Tiger claw) in place of a closed fist strike. One _could--and in my opinion, often should--_use a palm heel strike instead of a closed fist, and might _then_ follow with a tiger rake, or.... But this is a technique, and I was speaking of _forms, _for which I believe the bunkai might be endless.


 
Not really. Sure aesthetically speaking it would make things different & might even "liven things up" to an untrained eye or to a person who didn't know differently, but without the proper background in conditioning, theory, training & application you're doing the same thing with a funny hand position or even changing the function of an existing technique into something that may not work or be dangerous for the person playing the motion. 

Still a bad idea.



kidswarrior said:


> If you're going to start off with 'Bad idea' in response to another poster, you might want to carefully read/think about what the proposal really is.


 
Nope. Before trying to scold someone about _their ideas & opinions_, you might want to check the background of the person & their training. 

I've got twice the years as you do in training in MAs in general. I've trained in several different JMAs, KMAs & CMAs. I currently study Choy Li Fut which is an animal heavy system. We have specific training regimines for each animal to make sure we know how, when, where & why to use & apply it. Each motion is specific to the animal. No cross pollenation or changing of a technique to use a different hand shape. Each hand shape is unique & the training behind it insures it's used in the correct time & place.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 9, 2007)

clfsean said:


> Nope. Before trying to scold someone about _their ideas & opinions_, you might want to check the background of the person & their training.
> 
> I've got....


 
Oh, OK then. Since you've got all that, I bow to your superiority and acknowledge your right to 'scold' me, while humbly admitting my ideas are without merit and therefore I have no right to question your belittling of them. Won't make the same mistake again.


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## clfsean (Feb 9, 2007)

*oiy*

Ok... with that out of the way, the entire point I was making was missed based on your statement I initially quoted.


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## british12 (Feb 9, 2007)

This has thrown up an interesting debate................From _my_ understanding its important not to drift too much away from the techniques you have been taught but in a real life scenario you could be caught in a rather compromising position so you wont be able to use the technique as well as in training...................its what feels good at the time no matter how ugly it might look compared to your training.


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## clfsean (Feb 9, 2007)

british12 said:


> This has thrown up an interesting debate................From _my_ understanding its important not to drift too much away from the techniques you have been taught but in a real life scenario you could be caught in a rather compromising position so you wont be able to use the technique as well as in training...................its what feels good at the time no matter how ugly it might look compared to your training.


 
Very true but you should have more than one option available. You shouldn't focus on using a specific technique but on dealing with & surviving the encounter. Your training should teach your body what to do. Your body should do what it's taught without needing input from the brain. 

It's not a far drift, but one that can drift pretty quick.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 9, 2007)

I don't mean to jump on anyone's case, but just thought I'd give my own input.  In my opinion, Clfsean is correct.  The different animals have very specific approaches to fighting, and it goes far beyond the type of hand strike they use.  A Crane method is much more than simply using a cranebeak strike, and a Tiger method is much more than simply using tiger claws.  In fact, the different animalized hand strikes can certainly be found within other animal methods.  We use a tigerclaw in Tibetan White Crane system, for example.

I think what Clfsean is getting at is the approach used to create an effective animal method.  The animal has characteristics.  It has strengths and weaknesses, and a certain approach to fighting that is relatively unique, compared to the other animals.  Training methods are used to develop the skills needed to take on this approach, and deliver the strikes appropriately.  So for example, if you are using a Crane method, it really does not make sense to try to blend tiger with it.  Of course you can switch from one to the other, but Crane method doesn't work if it is half tiger.  If you are going to use tiger, then switch to tiger.  Otherwise, keep doing crane.

I am a believer that in a real fight, chaos reigns and this often means your technique gets switched up and used differently from how you learn it and train it in the "ideal" phase.  But if you are using a specific animal methodology, you stick to that methodology, regardless of how the individual techs get mixed up.

Here is another example:  Tibetan White Crane is just about as different from Wing Chun as it is possible to get.  I bring this up because Wing Chun was part of the initial post in this thread.  Anyway, the power generation is entirely different, technique execution is entirely different, footwork and stancework are entirely different, approach to fighting is entirely different.  I know this because I have studied both.  If I used Wing Chun as a platform to fight from, but tried to mix in White Crane hand techs, it would fail miserably.  It is the footwork and stancework and approach to fighting that White Crane uses, that makes its hand techniques effective.  To try to graft those techs onto Wing Chun, takes them out of proper context, forces them into a context that doesn't make sense, and they would be worthless.

So getting back to the point:  trying to force animal characteristics onto something that isn't animal, or onto something that is a different animal, just doesn't work well, and it doesn't suddenly make that non-animal thing into an animal thing.  Simply using "animal" hand strikes doesn't make something an animal system.  Substituting a tigerclaw for a punch doesn't make it tiger.  Under the right circumstances, the substitution might be effective, but it remains just a substitution.  It's not truly "tiger".  

Hope this helps.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 9, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't mean to jump on anyone's case, but just thought I'd give my own input. In my opinion, Clfsean is correct. The different animals have very specific approaches to fighting, and it goes far beyond the type of hand strike they use. A Crane method is much more than simply using a cranebeak strike, and a Tiger method is much more than simply using tiger claws. In fact, the different animalized hand strikes can certainly be found within other animal methods. We use a tigerclaw in Tibetan White Crane system, for example.
> 
> I think what Clfsean is getting at is the approach used to create an effective animal method. The animal has characteristics. It has strengths and weaknesses, and a certain approach to fighting that is relatively unique, compared to the other animals. Training methods are used to develop the skills needed to take on this approach, and deliver the strikes appropriately. So for example, if you are using a Crane method, it really does not make sense to try to blend tiger with it. Of course you can switch from one to the other, but Crane method doesn't work if it is half tiger. If you are going to use tiger, then switch to tiger. Otherwise, keep doing crane.
> 
> ...


 
What he said.

Doing white crane spreads its wings in Tai Chi is not the same as white crane kung fu. White crane in Tai chi is going to be very different than a crane system of fighting. In Tai chi it is more what the posture looks like.

Xingyi has 12 animal forms, all which have different applications, but they are still done as Xingyi not an animal form of kung fu. Which is very different in applications and appearance. Just because in Xingyi 5 elements your hand position is called tigers mouth does not make it tiger style or anything like it.


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## british12 (Feb 11, 2007)

Can I possibly see some of the animal forms online?  I want to see them and have a basic understanding of it before I do anything............all the different animal forms sound interesting.


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## MSTCNC (Feb 11, 2007)

british12 said:


> Can I possibly see some of the animal forms online?  I want to see them and have a basic understanding of it before I do anything............all the different animal forms sound interesting.



Here's one that I found by searching *shaolin five animals* on YouTube...

[yt]Bc1zhpqbEV0[/yt]

Your Brother in the arts,

Andrew


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 11, 2007)

Xing Yi 12 Animal Fists Preview


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2007)

MSTCND said:


> Here's one that I found by searching *shaolin five animals* on YouTube...
> 
> [yt]Bc1zhpqbEV0[/yt]
> 
> ...


 
This is an internal form of Hung Gar's Five Animals.  I have heard that Choy Lay Fut's Five Animals is also internal.

As the narrator states, it is not a fighting set, but rather a set used to develop internal chi, based on theories of the Five Animals.  So it isn't probably the best example of Animal Fighting styles.

I have mentioned this in other threads: In the Chinese arts, there are many different ways of doing things, even tho they may share the same name.  Five Animals in one art may be completely different from Five Animals in another art.  Tibetan White Crane is completely different from Fukien White Crane, or Wu Mei White Crane.  They are entirely different interpretations of the White Crane.

Look on Youtube, and just search for things like White Crane Kung Fu, White Ape Kung Fu, Preying Mantis kung fu, things like that.  You will see some examples.

Getting back to the thread topic, not everything that is Shaolin is animal based.  There is just a lot of stuff that claims to have a connection and link to the Shaolin Temple.  Not all of it is verifiable.  But also, not all of it is animal inspired.  Shaolin is an umbrella name that includes many different arts.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 3, 2007)

Woah this has gone way off topic. To answer your question British12 - Kamon is about the best kung fu federation you will find in the country. 

I have spent a long time looking at martial art schools up and down the UK. There are some exceptional schools around but not many have the vision to expand upon wing chun to include clinchwork, long distance fighting etc. Alan Orr is another good school but is also wing chun

There is a school called Nam Yang that exist around Surrey and they are very typical of what you can expect from Shaolin styles. Loud drum bangs, pathetic tricks of the eye that make people think you can deflect blades with your bare hands, kids thinking that they are kung fu masters etc

This is general advice for anyone starting in martial arts - go to the school ask the instructor what they do. Then ask him/her to demonstrate how they fight, and what they would do in a clinch scenario. Ask them how long it takes for them to grade


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## Changhfy (Jul 21, 2007)

To list some of my opinions.

Wing Chun is a Southern(Nan) Shaolin(Siu Lam) system.

As such its general characteristics are more straight forward.

For example some footwork used is bik ma, biu ma so forth. Representing the concepts (bik-press, biu-thrust) This type of footwork is also used by other Southern Shaolin systems such as Pak Mei, Hung Kuen I've seen Cho Gar Tong Long use it. (though its not labeled as such its similar but expresses a different concept)

Where as the Shaolin you are speaking of you would have to be more specific. Such as Northern (Bei) or Southern (Nan) Shaolin. 
Northern generally starts out with wider movements to represent ways to generate Fa Jing based on the methods used. But given Northern Shaolin starts out with wider longer range movements and at later stages becomes more compact and economical. 

Southern Shaolin also has similar progressions for instance based on combat in the 1600's Wing Chun as all other systems of the time started out with the training of weapons as this was a must in order to survive. (for instance if you come at me with swords and spears and I use bear hands I would place my money on you as opposed to the guy with only bear hands) 

So given this was a must for survival you can see in the use of the Luk Dim Poon Kwan the wider and more stable stances were used to hold the weight of the pole or at that time the spear. Being that it was heavy and to have economy of motion you needed a wider base as a way to conserve energy on the battle field. So this is an example of how the situation dictated the methods used.

I've studied both Northern and Southern Shaolin systems and this is my opininions based on my experience. 

hope this helps


take care


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## Rabu (Jul 21, 2007)

Wong Kiew Kit...How could you be against someone able to disperse clouds with his Chi and Levitate?  *sheesh*

You can watch Wanham work out videos on YouTube or other video sites like Google.  It looks pretty interesting for sure.  

_Very _interesting.

If you had a good thing with your Wing Chun previously, try to get back into your old practice. 

Plenty of people over on MAP who are in England.  Lots of Lau Gar practitioners there apparently.

If you have the ability to shop about for something, look at whats in your area.  Make a list.  visit the schools and see which one doesnt set off your 'freak-o-meter'.  Where you find good practice and feel comfortable is where you should try to train.

Best of luck,

Rob


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## Jin Gang (Jul 21, 2007)

Wonk Kiew Kit's Shaolin style is based on the five animals, and has a more southern feel to it.  It is different from other southern shaolin styles that have the five animals, like Hung ga.  
Shaolin, in general, is not primarily based on animal styles.  The five animals set is just one of many styles and sets that was practiced in shaolin at one time.  The five animals seems to be preserved more in southern styles than the northern systems.  Modern northern shaolin sets include what some term as "longfist" styles; Chang quan, Hong (red) Quan, Pao Quan (cannon fist), Qixing quan (seven star fist), tongbei quan and others.

  Many, many styles claim to have some connection to the temple in their past, so therefore can call themselves "shaolin".  The temple has risen and fallen, literally and figuratively, so many times in history that it is almost impossible to say what is "really" shaolin martial arts.  People came into the temple and taught styles they developed or learned in other areas, and the monks modified the styles and passed them on to others.  The temple would be destroyed or closed, and monks would spread into the villages, teaching various styles to people.  All the various styles that monks and lay people taught and developed in the temple could be called shaolin martial arts, there wasn't just one style.  (as was mentioned earlier, Wing Chun is one of these styles)  So keep that in mind when hearing someone talk of shaolin martial arts.  It's very difficult to verify whether someone really learned something from a shaolin monk 300 years ago.  Better to judge a style by its content, and not by its name or the prestige it claims due to some lineage.


Some of the forms that have been "reinserted" into the modern shaolin temple style from the northern styles that have some connection to the temple historically:

Luohan quan




 
Pao Chui




 
Xiao Hong quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&mode=related&search=

Da Hong quan




 
Qixing quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKjeyXHVV8w&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lG3RN1KGY0&NR

tongbei quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4WIARR1sUE&mode=related&search=


to compare, here is Wong Kiew Kit's five animals form, or at least part of it, that would be taught at shaolin wahnam.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=10&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1


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