# Ninjitsu- not just another martial art



## Senin (Sep 7, 2005)

What makes ninjutsu more than just another martial art?  There are many martial arts out there.  What is different about ninjutsu that makes it something more than just punching, kicking, grabbling, etc?


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## rutherford (Sep 7, 2005)

I think the poll we had recently agreed that the best thing about Ninjutsu is the chics.  It's a fact, girls swoon for the ninjas.  In the grand scheme of things, being a ninja will get you more girls than playing Bass Guitar in a band.

The shoes are definitely a close second.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 7, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> I think the poll we had recently agreed that the best thing about Ninjutsu is the chics. It's a fact, girls swoon for the ninjas. In the grand scheme of things, being a ninja will get you more girls than playing Bass Guitar in a band.
> 
> The shoes are definitely a close second.


 Don't forget the disappearing smoke bombs, that is a real cool factor!


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## MisterMike (Sep 7, 2005)

Nope, it's the straight sword with the tsuba that doubles as a shuriken.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 7, 2005)

wait?  When do we get the chicks?

Im still waiting!


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## Shizen Shigoku (Sep 7, 2005)

*Technopunk:     "wait?  When do we get the chicks?"*

  When your taijutsu is good enough. 

  The shoes *are* pretty cool.

  That and all the cool lessons that go beyond self-protection and survival, and into real life skills.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 7, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> *Technopunk:     "wait?  When do we get the chicks?"*
> 
> When your taijutsu is good enough.


  I was wondering why?  Darn!      I guess I am gonna have to train harder!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 7, 2005)

The special thing about ninjutsu is that it is often confused with taijutsu.:ultracool


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## Ceicei (Sep 7, 2005)

I like it when the ninjas have that aura of mysticism and the way they dress.   Gotta love hollywood! :shrug:

- Ceicei


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## Gin-Gin (Sep 8, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I like it when the ninjas have that aura of mysticism and the way they dress.   Gotta love hollywood! :shrug:- Ceicei


Yeah, I have to admit, I used to watch the TV show "The Master" with Lee Van Clief & Sho Kosugi in the 80's [& I know I wasn't the only one watching it...  ]. At the time, I thought it was cool & I still have a soft spot for shuriken & disappearing smoke bombs.


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## proud beginner (Sep 8, 2005)

A friend of mine, who's a real expert in martial arts (what I'm not) and experieced SD instructor has been invited to a private demonstration with an old Japanese I don't remember the name. It was in Paris, some monthes ago.

From what he told me about that, it's too much technical learning from my point of view but the techniques themselves are both unexpected and devastating.

Besides, the old man was wearing a suit, not anything exotic.

There was very good artists in the public, in their 30s or 40s, trained and athletic, and none of them tried to challenge the old one, even if kindly asked to do. They were *scared*.


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## Kizaru (Sep 8, 2005)

proud beginner said:
			
		

> They were *scared*.


Wow. 

Me too. 

Anyone else?


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## MisterMike (Sep 8, 2005)

Maybe it was Savate.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 8, 2005)

ok ok.

 Fun is fun, and Im guilty here too, but none of these posts is really on topic... so lets either answer the question or let it die.


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## Tengu6 (Sep 9, 2005)

Senin said:
			
		

> What makes ninjutsu more than just another martial art? There are many martial arts out there. What is different about ninjutsu that makes it something more than just punching, kicking, grabbling, etc?


The answer is......our Soke Masaaki Hatsumi.


Markk Bush


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## seansnyder (Sep 14, 2005)

Along with Markks response, I would like to add that the bujinkan is a complete martial art. We leave nothing out. Nothing we can't adapt to or overcome. When dealing with controlling your opponents space, not many other, if any martial arts teach this. They have in my opinion lost the essence of their own art. They have become technique driven arts and thrive off learning set ways to avoiding their opponents attack. We strive off controlling the opponents kukan. The opponent is meaningless. Maybe this helps, maybe this confuses you. ?..?


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## rutherford (Sep 14, 2005)

Why let your opponent own kukan?  Personally, I want it all.


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## seansnyder (Sep 14, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Why let your opponent own kukan? Personally, I want it all.


Read again, I said control the opponents kukan.


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## Tengu6 (Sep 14, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Why let your opponent own kukan? Personally, I want it all.


You cant possibly have _all_ the kukan.......thats like having all the _In_ and none of the _Yo_....the trick is to have all the _useable_ kukan........allow your opponent to have all the _unusable_ kukan they can take.

Markk Bush


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## rutherford (Sep 14, 2005)

I don't allow. 

And, It doesn't mean anything different without the apostrophe.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 14, 2005)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> You cant possibly have _all_ the kukan.......thats like having all the _In_ and none of the _Yo_....the trick is to have all the _useable_ kukan........allow your opponent to have all the _unusable_ kukan they can take.
> 
> Markk Bush


 Well, its all USEABLE, right?  You just want them to USE the space that doesnt allow them to injure you, right?  I mean, if they wanna use that open space away from you to say... flee... thats generally acceptable, no?


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## Don Roley (Sep 15, 2005)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> Along with Markks response, I would like to add that the bujinkan is a complete martial art. We leave nothing out.




Wrong.

There are limits to *everything* and the Bujinkan is no exception. There are some arts that I can mention that do very well in their specialization. For a Bujinkan practicioner to go against them in their area of specialization would be suicide.

I had a conversation with someone recently who was talking about some tapes from another art. He was excited because _70 to 80 percent_ could possibly be used in our art with no trouble or contridiction. You want to say that the Bujinkan leaves nothing out? Well, if you want a Ferrari you have to leave out the heavy lifting of a 18 wheeler truck. To be one thing, you have to not try to be everything half way.

I like Bujinkan and have come to live where the best training in it is. So you can't say I am trashing the Bujinkan. But _nothing_ can be the best in everything. The Bujinkan is what I like in being well centered and it fits my ideal for a martial art. But for people that have to live a different sort of life, other arts are much better suited. And I will admit that rather than try to say that the Bujinkan is perfect in every way.


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## Cyber Ninja (Sep 15, 2005)

Very well said Don. For myself personally, Ninjutsu/Ninpo Taijutsu/Budo Taijutsu (however you refer to the arts), it is best suited for my taste.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 15, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I mean, if they wanna use that open space away from you to say... flee... thats generally acceptable, no?


 Well, what if they want to use that space to regroup and come back at you?


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## Bigshadow (Sep 15, 2005)

What follows are my thoughts and opinions...

 I have been thinking about the word "Complete". In my opinion, that word is very open ended and vague with respect to martial arts. I think that often times when people say complete martial art, they referring to survival and the knowledge of universal principles of hand to hand combat. However, the listener thinks more along the lines of sport. 

 In sports, there are rules, the end is determined by time and a few other factors, but certainly not death. The athletes know how long the "fight" could last and there is no real fear for their life. There are specialized techniques that they use to "win" and like-wise by rules there is only so much that can be done. Most times these techniques are adaptations of martial techniques. But neither is going into the competition with the intent to seriously harm, maim, or kill the other one.

 For me, from what I can tell, the Bujinkan contains what I consider a complete art for survival (with the exception of eternal life). Human hand-to-hand combat has some very universal principles and BBT certainly has NOT cornered the market on them, as I am sure there are many other arts who realize these principles. However, for me it has everything I could possiby think of and it works for me. I believe it is a complete martial art for survival.

 In essence I think that "complete" conjures up all sorts of definitions that are not entirely accurate, especially when the speaker is thinking fruit and the listener is thinking oranges.


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## Kizaru (Sep 15, 2005)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> When dealing with controlling your opponents space, not many other, if any martial arts teach this. They have in my opinion lost the essence of their own art.


Statements about broads can be dangerous, broad statements even more dangerous.



			
				seansnyder said:
			
		

> We strive off controlling the opponents kukan. The opponent is meaningless.


Until of course he stabs you with the knife you didn't see (because you _thought_ he was meanigless) and the stuff on your insides starts to come out onto your outsides...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 15, 2005)

"The game is a lot bigger than you think you know, and if you think you know then I don't think you know."


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 15, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Statements about broads can be dangerous, broad statements even more dangerous.


Someone I know within the Bujinkan has been known to complain about the supposed fact that practitioners styles like WingTsun, KunTaoSilat, Kali, Muay Thai and NHB-oriented systems can't move their feet enough. It's also interesting to note that this individual has never been to Japan.

I hope for his sake that he never gets into a fight with Michael Flatley.


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## Fallen Ninja (Sep 15, 2005)

I think that would be a very correct statement. 





> "NinjItsu- not just another martial art".


 Try an art that doesn't exist.

I hate when the Kukan controls me and guides my next move, making me move inside, around, and under it. Does that happen to anyone else? Can anyone say Kihon Happo?:supcool:


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## Cryozombie (Sep 15, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Well, what if they want to use that space to regroup and come back at you?


 Hopefully you are aware enough when this happens, then, and not busy thinking "Ha! I schooled him!" so that if he/she does come back, you can again use the space.

 As far as the Bujinkan being "All encompasing" Its interesting to see people say "Yes it is, you just havnt seen it yet" and see people say "No, it doesnt have everything"...

 My feeling is similar to Don's... I believe it is well rounded but not a master of every arena of combat.  The area I think that the bujinkan makes up for this, however, is in the lessons we see that tell us not to fight a fighter the way he wants... If a Boxer wants to box, you dont stand around and box him.  If a grappler wants to grapple, you dont try to "out grapple" him.

 I truly believe that the one thing you can say about the Bujinkan is that Its a martial art for the development of the head, as well as the physical skills.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 15, 2005)

Even if we suppose for a moment that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu IS all-encompassing, it's up to YOU to find someone capable of teaching you whatever it is you want to learn.

More often than not, this is technically possible.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 16, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> If a Boxer wants to box, you dont stand around and box him. If a grappler wants to grapple, you dont try to "out grapple" him.
> 
> I truly believe that the one thing you can say about the Bujinkan is that Its a martial art for the development of the head, as well as the physical skills.


 I would agree with that! Obviously, trying to out-do someone on their terms when they specialize in something is not very smart. However, there are universal principles of human combat and if you can work with these, then no matter whether your attacker is a boxer, grappler, swordsman, or even Darth Vader, you just may survive. It isn't a sport where you play on their terms, like you said, don't try to out box the boxer. 

 I don't really think I am disagreeing with Don or even you, just I think the tools are there to deal with most anything, they are there for us to find, that is one of the benefit of training.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 16, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I don't really think I am disagreeing with Don or even you, just I think the tools are there to deal with most anything, they are there for us to find, that is one of the benefit of training.


 Yep! I agree... thats what I meant when I said it was "Well rounded"...



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Even if we suppose for a moment that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu IS all-encompassing, it's up to YOU to find someone capable of teaching you whatever it is you want to learn.
> 
> More often than not, this is technically possible.


 This is probably true, and I have seen that it IS possible to specialize in this art as well, but the art, overall, is not that specialized, is it?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 16, 2005)

The art itself, or its exponents?


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## seansnyder (Sep 16, 2005)

Sorry it took so long.....

Here we go Don Roley:



> There are some arts that I can mention that do very well in their specialization.


Agreed



> For a Bujinkan practicioner to go against them in their area of specialization would be suicide.


Agreed, I would never box with a boxer with only their rules applying. Put me on the street with a boxer, with everything in the world at my finger tips....look out!!!

We train or at least I train for real life combat, not sport. I will never go to a kung fu dojo and only fight the guy using kung fu. I don't know kung fu. But I feel pretty confident that if I used the skills and knowledge I have from my bujinkan training that I would fair pretty damn well.



> I had a conversation with someone recently who was talking about some tapes from another art. He was excited because _70 to 80 percent_ could possibly be used in our art with no trouble or contridiction. You want to say that the Bujinkan leaves nothing out?


Yes I will.



> Well, if you want a Ferrari you have to leave out the heavy lifting of a 18 wheeler truck. To be one thing, you have to not try to be everything half way.


I disagree with your analogy. It sounds like you don't believe in YOUR own training. 

Explain half way. 



> I like the Bujinkan and have come to live where the best training in it is.


Where's that?



> So you can't say I am trashing the Bujinkan.


Really? One last question, would you stand in front of Hatsumi, or Nagato Sensei and tell them we don't have a complete art?






> But for people that have to live a different sort of life, other arts are much better suited.


Can you explain?



----------------------------------------------------------------

Sean Snyder
U?G.P! Dojo


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 16, 2005)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> We train or at least I train for real life combat, not sport. I will never go to a kung fu dojo and only fight the guy using kung fu. I don't know kung fu. But I feel pretty confident that if I used the skills and knowledge I have from my bujinkan training that I would fair pretty damn well.


"Everyone has a plan. Then they get punched in the face."

Ten points if you whom this quote came from.



			
				seansnyder said:
			
		

> Yes I will.


Allright then, the Bujinkan prepares you for full contact muay thai/kickboxing/sanshou/vale tudo style competitions. Agree or disagree?



			
				seansnyder said:
			
		

> I disagree with your analogy. It sounds like you don't believe in YOUR own training.


Overconfidence is never very useful either. 



			
				seansnyder said:
			
		

> Where's that?


Japan.



			
				seansnyder said:
			
		

> Really? One last question, would you stand in front of Hatsumi, or Nagato Sensei and tell them we don't have a complete art?


Would you stand in front of the same gentlemen and tell them that you've seen/been around enough of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu to make that conclusion?



			
				seansnyder said:
			
		

> Can you explain?


Well, Budo Taijutsu not a very profitable enterprise assuming you want to get out of the ghetto but can't rap or don't have enough luck at the lottery...neither is it something that (USUALLY) develops proficiency and "fighting spirit" quickly. However, I'd say this has more to do with the individuals performing the training and less with the training itself. I'm totally convinced that if people in the Bujinkan started wearing ordinary clothes a bit more often at least in the beginner's classes (or at least took off their gi jackets in favour of t-shirts), added an extra punch, elbow or groin kick with every hajutsu technique, put on redman suits a bit more often and marketed it all as SELF-DEFENSE TRAINING first and foremost, we would instantly attain the same public image of an effective, no-nonsense self-defense system as Krav Maga has gotten in recent years. The difference, again, is what we choose to _emphasize_. But functionally, assuming you're willing to put in the training required, the difference isn't all that big.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 16, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> The art itself, or its exponents?


 Its exponents.  Sorry... i re-read that and realized it wasnt clear


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## Bigshadow (Sep 16, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Allright then, the Bujinkan prepares you for full contact muay thai/kickboxing/sanshou/vale tudo style competitions. Agree or disagree?


 Please explain how competitions are related to budo? I am sorry, but I think that is precisely what I was getting at when people talk about being complete. That was why I emphasized I feel it is complete with regards to survival. Competitions are entirely different. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is not going to prepare you for full contact FOOTBALL. So in that respect it is not complete? It won't prepare me for full contact carpentry either. But then again it isn't related.  Just my thoughts and opinions.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 16, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Please explain how competitions are related to budo? I am sorry, but I think that is precisely what I was getting at when people talk about being complete. That was why I emphasized I feel it is complete with regards to survival.


Please explain to me how a Ferrari race car is related to an 18-wheeler?


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## Bigshadow (Sep 16, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Please explain to me how a Ferrari race car is related to an 18-wheeler?


 They are both vehicles or modes of transportation.  That is like saying how is football related to baseball.  However, I am trying to understand how is budo related to sports?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 16, 2005)

The training conducted in both endeavours, though they take on radically different forms, is based on the usage of violence against other persons.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 16, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> The training conducted in both endeavours, though they take on radically different forms, is based on the usage of violence against other persons.


 OK? The only similarities I can find between sport and Budo is human movement. But then again both the sports car and the big haul truck both move as does many things on this planet. As a matter of fact, both the vehicles and in sports, movement is bound by rules, either rules of the road or rules of the game, both of which provide safety and fairness. Whereas, in budo the rules are the boundaries that make us human and what governs human movement, regardless of safety or fairness. In my opinion these are the details that changes things entirely. Just like DNA, where there are so many similarities between different species, that it MUST be the most finite detail that changes EVERYTHING. 

 I don't have all the answers and probably none at all, just expressing my thoughts and opinions, so please don't take it as an attack.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 16, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> The only similarities I can find between sport and Budo is human movement.


Might as well get one thing straight right now - NO system whatsoever has the sole right to specific techniques, be they hip throws, takedowns, armbars, kimuras, right hooks or knife jabs. What separates them all is what they prioritize and what they're trying to accomplish by the usage of their chosen techniques. It is not my belief that one for instance HAS to practice KunTao, Silat or Kali to be able to defend yourself against knife attacks (though I do if and when the opportunity presents itself, maybe two or three times a year - purely out of my own interest, nothing else), no more do I believe that to be the case than I think the Gracies have the sole right to effective groundfighting. 

(Seriously though, trying out BJJ is something I recommend people to do - not because they have something the Bujinkan lacks, not to fill in perceived gaps in their regular training, but simply because it's just fun as hell. )


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## Kizaru (Sep 17, 2005)

seansnyder said:
			
		

> Don Roley said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ummm...Antarctica? 

No.

Mmmm....Guam?

Close, but no...

Nmmm..... ATLANTIS!!! I've heard Aquaman has Ninja Tuna with laserbeams on their heads!

No....How about....Japan?


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## Bigshadow (Sep 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Might as well get one thing straight right now - NO system whatsoever has the sole right to specific techniques, be they hip throws, takedowns, armbars, kimuras, right hooks or knife jabs.


 That is precisely my point about universal principles. Many of the techniques in BBT are used in many martial arts, because they are universal, we may have different names but they are the same. I don't disagree with you there. Because martial arts are about human vs human combat you will see MANY techniques that are the same through out the martial arts, depending on where the focus of each art is at. In my opinion, I sense a difference much like are we looking at the forest or the trees.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 18, 2005)

Look closely in some of his fights and you might see Tyson applying strategies which we would likely describe as sanshin no kata...


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## Don Roley (Sep 19, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That is precisely my point about universal principles. Many of the techniques in BBT are used in many martial arts, because they are universal, we may have different names but they are the same.



And we see things that are very, very different. This is why I wince at the use of terms such as "universal principles." Reality is universal. But the way you deal with reality can be almost infinate in its variations. A martial art is something that deals with the reality of combat and is thus not a principle in and of itself. 

It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that everything is the same in all martial arts. And thus you can take something from one art and use it as is in another with no problem. But that is somewhat like trying to get the manuverablity of a Ferrari and the load carrying ability of a truck. You can't do it and will likely come up with something that does neither very well.

Lets just take the simple example of how we punch in the Bujinkan. Comparissons with boxing have already been made. But the way they punch in boxing or any striking oriented art is different from the way it is in the Bujinkan. A good striking art can do it worlds better than the Bujinkan IMO. Because that is what they are about- defeating the other guy by doing enough damage through strikes. That is not the strategy we see used by Hatsumi very often.

In the Bujinkan, the strikes are more often a displacement for the purpose of setting up _kuzushi_ than trying to stay out of range and doing damage to the other guy. I would not like to take Noguchi's best punch, but I would be terrified of taking a good striker's best. The whole way you do punching differs in trying to achieve the aim of setting up _kuzushi_ and going into some sort of throw or control.

I do not know the physics involved very well, but when you snap something back you increase the dump of kinetic energy into the receiver. You can see this in both a whip and the snap back of a strikers strike. You do not see this in many strikes to the torso in the Bujinkan. You see it sometimes in limb destruction, but if you take _Danshi_ for example, after the fist bounces off the limb it then stays on the body at _Kimon_ through the take down. I have learned not to hit and snap back, but to hit and grab something and continuing the dance. 

And I have seen people try to do striker art methods to Bujinkan kata and the end result looks like Frankenstien's monster. They hit, snap back and then _try to go back in_ to set up for _Ganseki Nage_ and the like. They try to stun the guy long enough to set up the throw rather then let it flow into it naturally.

You can't have everything. To do well at being able to take someone down through things like _Ganseki Nage_ we have to use striking methods that taken alone are not as good as those we see in arts that specialize in striking. And I am satisfied with that. Lao Tzu said something to the effect that the use of a wheel is dependent on the section that is not there. As long as we know what our art can do and what _it is not supposed to do_ we can use it to good effect.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 21, 2005)

MODERATOR NOTE:

 Thread split to help return it to topic:

*What makes ninjutsu more than just another martial art?  

*Technopunk
 MT SuperModerator


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