# choices upon two different schools



## Matt89 (Jan 29, 2006)

Hi, im highly interested in taking martial arts. Looked for dojo's in the phone book and there is not many choices. Yet I have narrowed it down to two schools, one being Bushi Ban which I think is another form of karate if im not mistaken (which I probably am) and the second being Kuk Sool Won. I want to learn purely for self-defense and the exercise but I don't know which would be better. I'm looking for versatility, being able to defend yourself when out numbered and/or one on one. Im leaning more towards Kuk Sool Won. The Bushi Ban school came out with a commercial which keeps making me think that they are out for the money more than anything for some strange reason. I cant really explain it. The commercial does show the students learning from the sensei, but there is just something about martial arts being put on a commercial like that, that just dosn't seem quite right to me. plus its charging a hundred dollars per month and that dosn't include the gi. While Kuk Sool Won has a specail of 89$ a month that comes with the gi. Im not able to participate in any lessons as of yet. but still would like to know which art form would suit what im looking for. Any suggestions for any other form that I havn't mentioned is welcome


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## digitalronin (Jan 29, 2006)

I would say to trust your insticts about money driven schools. What part of texas are you from?  If you are from a small town your options are going to be rather limited.  Check out a few classes of each school do the following:

- see which of the instructors sounds less like a care salesman
- ask if any of the current students are law enforcement.
- how much will the school rip you off on the belts.  If it sounds like a 
  pyramid scheme it probably is.
- see if they engage in realistic fighting drills.
- check the student/teacher ratio.



do the research before you lay down your cash  

peace


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## MJS (Jan 29, 2006)

Matt89 said:
			
		

> Hi, im highly interested in taking martial arts. Looked for dojo's in the phone book and there is not many choices. Yet I have narrowed it down to two schools, one being Bushi Ban which I think is another form of karate if im not mistaken (which I probably am) and the second being Kuk Sool Won. I want to learn purely for self-defense and the exercise but I don't know which would be better. I'm looking for versatility, being able to defend yourself when out numbered and/or one on one. Im leaning more towards Kuk Sool Won. The Bushi Ban school came out with a commercial which keeps making me think that they are out for the money more than anything for some strange reason. I cant really explain it. The commercial does show the students learning from the sensei, but there is just something about martial arts being put on a commercial like that, that just dosn't seem quite right to me. plus its charging a hundred dollars per month and that dosn't include the gi. While Kuk Sool Won has a specail of 89$ a month that comes with the gi. Im not able to participate in any lessons as of yet. but still would like to know which art form would suit what im looking for. Any suggestions for any other form that I havn't mentioned is welcome


 
Welcome to Martial Talk! Enjoy your stay!

As for your question.  The first art that you mention, I have never heard of.  I have heard of KSW though.  I would take some time and watch and/or participate in a class.  That will give you the best feel.  Make sure that you ask pleanty of questions.  Ask about classes, payments, contracts, etc.  After you've seen both schools, make your decision from there.  If you need to visit a second time, go ahead.  Keep in mind that ultimately, its you that is going to be training at the school, so you want to make sure that you're going to enjoy it.

Good luck on your search.

Mike


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## rutherford (Jan 29, 2006)

http://www.bushiban.net/about.htm

Hmmm.  It looks like the headquaters is in Texas.  That probably explains the commercials.  But I don't think I'd show up at their school.

What do you guys think?

Edit - Make sure to check out their MMA program Fighter's Elite.  Anybody know of any fighters from their programs?


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## celtic_crippler (Jan 29, 2006)

A lot of great suggestions. I would also ask to see credentials (teaching certificates, degrees, etc.) Most schools will usually let you sit in on some classes to help make up your mind. Try them out and see which one you like best.


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## Martial Tucker (Jan 29, 2006)

I am not familiar with Bushi ban, but I have heard from some very senior
level martial artists that I respect and trust that it is not worth your time.

On the other hand, I think you will find kuk sool to be an excellent self defense art


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2006)

I agree with the previous posts

My suggestion with you gut on this one, and watch out for contracts and belt guarantees.
 
I have never heard of Bushi ban, but I went to there website and they do not really appear to emphasize self-defense.

Bushi Ban Definition - There is no definition.
http://www.answers.com/Bushi%20Ban
http://www.bushiban.net/
*This site does not seem to emphasize self defense*It mentions Stress, exercise, unhealthy diet, fun training, stay in shape, flexibility, and finally it mentions that you can protect yourself and your family. This statement would make me think twice before going - "In just a few short days "

Kuk Sool Won Definition
http://www.answers.com/Kuk%20Sool%20Won
At the very top of the page of the World Kuk Sool Association
"Home of the Martial Art"


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## bluemtn (Jan 29, 2006)

One of my brothers was taking KSW  for little while- had to quit for his own personal reasons, not due to the school.  When I talked to him about the classes when he was in them, he showed me some of the self defense moves they were learning, and it seems sound from what  I saw from him.  They might also do some acrobatic stuff, as well.  Then again, it might've just been his school.  I don't know if you're into doing stuff like that or not (it sounded like it was done as "extras").  Anyways, my brother was about 38, and LOVED it.


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## still learning (Jan 29, 2006)

Hello, Did you visit any of the schools nearby?  and talk with the teachers?

Always trust your instincts on how you feel about the taking that art.

You may want something near home or work?  Attendance is important, also traveling time?

The choice between the two will give your what you are looking for....keep in mind real fighing is totally different....chaos?

Check out also a Judo school too?  You will be surprise how fast you can use it? .....Just my thoughts..........Aloha


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## still learning (Jan 29, 2006)

Hello, Did you visit any of the schools nearby?  and talk with the teachers?

Always trust your instincts on how you feel about the taking that art.

You may want something near home or work?  Attendance is important, also traveling time?

The choice between the two will give your what you are looking for....keep in mind real fighing is totally different....chaos?

Check out also a Judo school too?  You will be surprise how fast you can use it? .....Just my thoughts..........Aloha


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## arnisador (Jan 29, 2006)

I am not familiar with Bushi Ban. That they had a commercial does not bother me. It seems to be a recently-created Karate-like art:



> The BUSHI BAN curriculum provides a well rounded holistic approach in training covering hard and soft systems of American, Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Chinese, Pakistani, Indian, Tibetan, Thai, Burmese, Mongolian, Brazilian, and other martial arts.



Such a lengthy list raises some concerns, but it's still worth investigating.

As to Kuk Sul Won, it's a very comprehensive art and well worth looking into if 
versatility is indeed a criterion. It has lots of types of techniques and many weapons. It can be somewhat acrobatic (high kicks, etc.).


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## Matt89 (Jan 29, 2006)

Thanks for all your help  I havnt been to any of the schools yet. Mainly what I have been doing was look for schools near where I live in the phone books and called for prices. Discovered that most schools will run at near a hundred per month. Both Bushi Ban and Kuk Sool Wan are just about a 10 to 15 minute drive. Im 16 and still live on allowance (tried to get a job in numerouse places, none called back) so basically my parents have to pay for it. With dental bills and all then I don't think they will pay for lessons till after the bills are payed for, which should be in a month or two. Untill then they don't show enough intrest in the schools to take me just yet. I searched the net for Bushi Ban and all I found was schools in different states, nothing on history. I checked the Kuk Sool Wan websight and it does mention acrobatics. I will make sure to visit the school and see how they do before I pay though, and once again thanks for your help. http://www.kuksoolwon.com/kuksool01.html


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## Gemini (Jan 29, 2006)

Visiting the schools is a necessity. Often times a commercial or internet site will show a Sensei or equivelant teaching a class, only to find out through a visit that they own the school, but leave the instruction to someone else. Not that that's necessisarily a bad thing, but something you're certainly going to want to know. As mentioned several times above, it will also give you a feel for what you're seeing.

I'm not familiar with Bushi ban, but the amount of arts rolled up into it does raise some suspicion. Again, that's not a knock, it just means I'd be a bit skeptical.

Go have a look and tell us what you find.

Oh, and, Welcome to MT! 

Good luck!


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## Matt89 (Jan 30, 2006)

Thanks for all the welcomes . I watched a video of a Kuk Sool Won school in korea and decided that its exactly what im looking for. I will take yall's advice and watch a class and take a free lesson before I hand out the cash but I believe that this is what I want. I like the acrobatics in it and although its hard work I believe I would be able to do it (although every inch of my body will be sore from falling all over the place just trying it) I want to thank you all for your help. One thing I am curiouse about, do you decide what weapon you learn to use? I know its a long way off and not gonna learn how to use a weapon for atleast two or three years at the least. Just something that always had me wondering. Once again thanks for all your help


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## bluemtn (Jan 31, 2006)

At the school I go to, the weapons change at about each belt (depending), but yes, we learn what the instructorhas chosen.  I imagine it's that way for the most part.  Enjoy your first intro class!


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2006)

I believe the founder of Kuk Sool Won is in Texas somewhere, maybe Houston.  The school you are looking at just may be the headquarters.  His son has a dojang here in San Francisco, so I have had some opportunity to view it.

Kuk Sool is a more recently founded art, like in the 1950s or so.  From what I understand the founder, In Hyuk Suh, studied several traditional Korean martial arts, including arts practiced in the royal palaces.  Later he codified it all into one system.  It is now a rather large group with many schools.  They do a lot of kicking, as well as joint manipulation and some throws, with some acrobatics on some level as well.  If the teacher is good, then I think it is a system that doesn't need to be shunned.

Given the choice between these two schools, I would lean toward Kuk Sool Won.  I checked out the Bushi Ban website, and it just looked a little too much like someone who isn't Grand Master material founded a new style that didn't need to be founded.


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## Martial Tucker (Jan 31, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I believe the founder of Kuk Sool Won is in Texas somewhere, maybe Houston.  The school you are looking at just may be the headquarters.  His son has a dojang here in San Francisco, so I have had some opportunity to view it.
> 
> Kuk Sool is a more recently founded art, like in the 1950s or so.  From what I understand the founder, In Hyuk Suh, studied several traditional Korean martial arts, including arts practiced in the royal palaces.  Later he codified it all into one system.  It is now a rather large group with many schools.  They do a lot of kicking, as well as joint manipulation and some throws, with some acrobatics on some level as well.  If the teacher is good, then I think it is a system that doesn't need to be shunned.
> 
> Given the choice between these two schools, I would lean toward Kuk Sool Won.  I checked out the Bushi Ban website, and it just looked a little too much like someone who isn't Grand Master material founded a new style that didn't need to be founded.


If you haven't heard of In Hyuk Suh, he was a student of Yong Sul Choi, the person credited for evolving what is now commonly called Hapkido from 
his experience with Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, which he learned under GM Takeda in Japan. As such, if you are looking for a pure self defense art that can be done by just about anyone, you should be quite happy with Kuk Sool. Sool essentially translates to "art", similar to jitsu/jutsu. Kuk is roughly 
equivalent to "National" or "Korean". So, Kuk Sool kind of translates to "Korean/National Art".

It will very much resemble traditional Hapkido, relying on joint locks, throws, pressure points, etc. but with more kicking and punching. I am primarily a TKD practitioner, but I do cross-train in Hapkido. It is my expereince that the kicking done in Hapkido is typically lower  (belt level and below) than what you often see in modern TKD.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 31, 2006)

I think you will be better off finding another school.
This is just silliness.  I actually met Zulfi Ahmed in TX a long time ago.
He is in fact very good at at what he does.  But what he does in tournament stuff and is geared more towards fun for kids and fitness.  This is very weak and unrealistic self defense.

On the web site you first see this:
"The name* BUSHI BAN* derives from two different words, Bushi-Do [Japanese warrior spirit and martial arts] and Bando [ ancient Burmese system of martial discipline]. The name *Bushi Ban* has come to mean Way of Disciplined Warrior."
Sorry, but this is just dumb.  The name Bushi Ban never has and never will mean "way of the disciplined warrior".  This is just someone making up Asian sounding names and giving them his own meaning in an attempt to make his art not sound so dumb.  Beginners and outsiders may be fooled by this, but experienced budoka will laugh and go else where.
He claims to be a weapons champion.  And I did in fact watch him win a weapons kata championship in Houston around 1990/91.  I remember watching him roll across the floor with a light, dull and cheaply made set of kama.  I recall the ooohs and ahhhs of the crowd and the judges.  I knew then he was going to win.  But I also remember thinking to myself, "I would like to see him try that with a real kama in a real fight".  In the same tournament I saw some excellent bo kata and others.  But the judges went for the flashy dance routine over the real weapons kata, so sadly, he won.  So he does have a lot of weapons trophy's just no weapons knowldege or skill.
The "bushi ban" karate is all the same.  It will be fun for  kids and good exercise for adults.  But very bad self defense, very costly over the long run and a lot of just  plain silliness.
I would say, if nothing else is in town, you have to better off with an unknwon Kuk Sool Won class.  But I am sure there has to be something else some place close by.


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## kenpojujitsu (Jan 31, 2006)

Matt,

If you decided on the Kuk Sool Won, then great - give it a shot.
Just don't sign any long term contracts.  Actually, your parents will have to sign.  But don't pay for more than 3 months.
Give it a serious chance and if you like it then great, stay.  If you are not sure, look at something else.
You are going to spend a lot of time and likely a lot of money. 

But where are you in TX?  It's a big place.  There may be some other, better schools, not that much further away. 

And don't worry about getting sore from the falls, you will learn how to break fall and protect yourself.  If you watch a class and do not see an emphasis on proper falling and see the students getting jarred and banged up then leave.


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## Matt89 (Feb 1, 2006)

Thanks for all yall's imput. I live in Houston, Pasadena. There are more schools around close by. One was a chinese martial arts school (forgot what the name of it though) but they said you had to be 18 and older. There was a kids karate school, a black belt Karate school, and if I remember correctly there was about 2 more Karate schools. I believe they said that I would pay monthly but I will check to make sure before handing out the cash. My gf said that for Valentines day she was going to give me the money for a month's worth of Kuk Sool Won training (I did my best to refuse it but dang she is stubborn... I lost that time). It would give me a bigger taste on how it works but I don't think I would learn much in the way of self-defense. I also don't know if its a good idea to take one month's of training and then wait till the next time i'm able to pay for it ( I refuse to let my gf pay for my classes for a year or more) I really need a freaking job LOL. Maybe by the time the months up my parents will be able to pay for it (I know im spoilt).


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## Matt89 (Feb 1, 2006)

> My gf said that for Valentines day she was going to give me the money for a month's worth of Kuk Sool Won training


 nvm I talked her out of it and man was it hard


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