# How does training change at Blackbelt?



## Kframe (Jan 4, 2014)

Hi guys.  Its been awhile since I hanged out in this forum. During my search for a martial art, I talked to many instructors. Since I talked to the KKW instructor first ill ask this here. He said that it takes 3-4 years to get to black belt and that is when you start learning the real art. I remember being very frustrated at that because, why waste 4 years of time not learning the real art.  

I get it now, that he was referring to learning the basics before black belt..   So ill ask this here.   What changes after you get that 1st degree?  What things change in the training? Specifically talking about someone it little interest in the sport side but the TMA side of it.    How does the training change? Do you change the way certain techniques are done? Say multi part movement techniques become smaller and more efficient? Just a example I was using.  


So guys, fill me in. Assuming a legit instructor, how did your training or the training at the school you teach at or run change once your average student hits that first black belt. 

Thanks for the discussion guys.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 4, 2014)

As a color belt there is so much information to absorb, that there is little time to analyze and extrapolate.  It is like learning the alphabet albeit a very complicated one.  You learn applications for motions which help you understand the concept behind the motion.  The applications are examples of how the motion Angle, distance and direction are used as well as transitions.   The applications are learning tools helping to understand the mechanics involved. 

Once you understand the concept you maay be able to discern many applications relating to the same concept.  Or, as someone said: Learn  100 applicaions and you may understand a single concept. But, if you learn a single concept you may understand 100 applications. 

However, if you tried to learn 100 applications for every concept it would be like asking a thirsty man to drink from a firehose. (Info overload).


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 4, 2014)

Simply put: geup ranks focus on HOW. Dan ranks focus on WHY. 


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 4, 2014)

In the 

- beginner level training, you train how to "apply" your technique A. You may grow many trees but you concentrate only on your main tree trunk. 
- intermediate/advance level training, you train how to use your technique A to set up your technique B. Each of your main tree trunk start to branch out and grow into a full growing tree.


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## K-man (Jan 5, 2014)

To be honest I don't believe much changes at all at that time in terms of training. Sure you have a feeling of accomplishment but in reality the training continues as before. What does change at that time is that you start teaching. Lower ranks look at you as being someone who has _been there done that. _They start to ask questions and many of these questions you may not be able to answer. Things that you did without question as you progressed through the ranks suddenly become things that you need to research to provide a credible answer. To me that is what changes and your development progresses exponentially. When you are the 'go to' man you have to lift your game or lose your credibility. As *DD* said, you know the how, now you have to know the why.
:asian:


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## SJON (Jan 5, 2014)

In my experience of Kukki TKD, not much changes at black belt. Basically you can now do everything the coloured belts can do, but you can do it better, and there isn't much else.

I think this is one of the big failings of Kukki TKD, the lack of any substantial BB syllabus. Sure, you learn some new patterns, you do some more difficult jumps, but in my experience there is no new _depth _of knowledge taught, no _advanced _material other than the new forms that are trickier as a performance art.

As a coloured belt I was under the impression that after 1st Dan there would be a lot more practical application, a lot more self-defence material, some kind of credible use for all the hand technique, perhaps even some vital point work, but this was not the case. What there is of that kind of thing is generally imported from other arts.

I say all this from a position of experience, having trained and discussed with many TKD masters in many places. Some instructors have nothing of substance to teach beyond 1st Dan (apart from the higher forms and doing the basic stuff harder and faster), and the masters that do have something to offer find themselves stifled by the sport/PE/exhibition emphasis of their NGBs and by lack of demand.

This is why so many Kukki TKD BBs end up leaving TKD and taking up HKD or other arts, or going independent and teaching a more self-defence-oriented TKD to those who are interested.

It's all very well saying that there are Kukki TKD masters out there who can offer the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I _know _there are. But I really think the Kukkiwon needs to start thinking about designing and implementing an actual syllabus for BBs before Kukki TKD is definitively dismissed by public and practitioners alike as an art for kids and competing athletes only.

Cheers,

Simon


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 5, 2014)

Getting a Blackbelt is like passing Biology 101, it doesn't make you a doctor but there is nothing more to learn, really. You just go more in depth.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 5, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the
> 
> - beginner level training, you train how to "apply" your technique A. You may grow many trees but you concentrate only on your main tree trunk.
> - intermediate/advance level training, you train how to use your technique A to set up your technique B. Each of your main tree trunk start to branch out and grow into a full growing tree.



Very true. For example. In Ho Sin Sul I often provide a "Plan A" response to an attack as well as a "Plan B". If one doesn't work you need to move on to the other. You need to adjust faster than te attacker. As you progress the alternate solutions can include C,D,E.... The more advanced student has more alternatives and can move between them with more alacrity.


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## Jaeimseu (Jan 5, 2014)

I think after black belt students can focus more deeply on how and why things work and how things fit together.

For many people, especially young athletic types (at least here in Korea), it's also a chance for them to choose a specialty or major area to pursue, be it poomsae, sparring, or demonstration.

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## msmitht (Jan 5, 2014)

At my GMs school we trained 4-6 years to Bb. At Bb we learned the application of poomsae and advanced breaking. Each Dan level presented new challenges and techniques. At 3rd he made us learn judo falls and throws. Was all of it TKD? No but it helped me to become a better martial artist.
As a bjj black belt I can tell you that there is a huge difference for Bb training. Like tkd there are basics and they don't change but as you train more you get a better understanding of how and why they work and more importantly, how they don't work. Most time is spent free training and learning new variations of positions/submissions/transitions....etc. plus we get to start learning the techniques that are not allowed until Bb.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 5, 2014)

In my Chinese wrestling system, after you have obtained your 1st degree black belt, you will need to compete in tournaments to build good tournament record to qualified for your 2nd degree black belt. There is no other ways around. So after your 1st degree black belt, it will be your "tournament time".

In Chinese wrestling system, if you don't compete in tournament, the 1st degree black belt will be as far as you can go for the rest of your life.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 6, 2014)

SJON said:


> In my experience of Kukki TKD, not much changes at black belt. Basically you can now do everything the coloured belts can do, but you can do it better, and there isn't much else.



This is precisely correct.  I've had many discussions with those in Kukki-TKD, particularly those of advanced Dan (5-7).  One 7th Dan stated bluntly that he'd trained in Kukki-TKD for 30 years, but really learned nothing new after the 3rd year when he got his BB.  And that's a shame because it doesn't have to be that way.  Figure it this way, as stated above, the Kukki-TKD BB takes 3-4 years outside of Korea.  Why?  It takes one year or less in Korea and is the same curriculum.  Are they so much faster learners in Korea?  Apparently not as the retention rate after BB is pretty dismal.  Or could it perhaps be that making it 3-4 years outside of Korea brings in more cash to both the instructor and the organization?  

That fortunately doesn't speak for all of TKD.  There are many TKD schools and organizations that put 'meat and potatoes' into the training, both before and after BB.  And to be clear, learning yet another block/punch/kick form isn't what I'm referring to as meat and potatoes education.  Anything more than five total forms for an entire system is simply creating a class-filler in a cookie cutter school.  And I'd argue that really only 1-3 forms/kata are needed for a lifetime of training and continuing education.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 6, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is precisely correct.  I've had many discussions with those in Kukki-TKD, particularly those of advanced Dan (5-7).  One 7th Dan stated bluntly that he'd trained in Kukki-TKD for 30 years, but really learned nothing new after the 3rd year when he got his BB.  And that's a shame because it doesn't have to be that way.



I'm a 5th Dan Kukkiwon and 6th Dan Changmookwan, so I guess I fall in to your advanced Dan category.  I would say that the 7th Dan you spoke to has had a very unfortunate experience and it certainly wouldn't match mine.  I started Taekwondo in 1986, so nearly 30 years and learnt LOADS of detail when I went to Korea in the summer.  Admittedly most of them were little tweaks in movements, but there were also some larger concepts such as power generation that I wasn't getting right.  I feel if you aren't learning new stuff, then you're likely stuck in your own dojang, doing the same thing day in/day out.  People need to get out there, to learn from other seniors.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Figure it this way, as stated above, the Kukki-TKD BB takes 3-4 years outside of Korea.  Why?  It takes one year or less in Korea and is the same curriculum.  Are they so much faster learners in Korea?  Apparently not as the retention rate after BB is pretty dismal.  Or could it perhaps be that making it 3-4 years outside of Korea brings in more cash to both the instructor and the organization?



The simple answer is that in Korea people (often children) train 5 times per week.  This works out to about 250 hours of training for 1st Poom (or Dan).  People outside Korea training 1-2x per week should take 3-4 years.  It's simple maths.


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## K-man (Jan 6, 2014)

andyjeffries said:


> The simple answer is that in Korea people (often children) train 5 times per week.  This works out to about 250 hours of training for 1st Poom (or Dan).  People outside Korea training 1-2x per week should take 3-4 years.  It's simple maths.


Interesting. We train more than 250 hours a year and it takes about 6 years to 1st Dan. 
:asian:


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 6, 2014)

andyjeffries said:


> I'm a 5th Dan Kukkiwon and 6th Dan Changmookwan, so I guess I fall in to your advanced Dan category.  I would say that the 7th Dan you spoke to has had a very unfortunate experience and it certainly wouldn't match mine.



If it were an isolated situation I'd be inclined to agree with you.  However, unfortunately, it isn't.  I know an 7th Dan in G.B. as well and have talked with him many times over the years.  His experience was the same.  My own instructor who is a KKW master (now retired) has related the same feelings.  



> I started Taekwondo in 1986, so nearly 30 years and learnt LOADS of detail when I went to Korea in the summer.  Admittedly most of them were little tweaks in movements, but there were also some larger concepts such as power generation that I wasn't getting right.



Okay, I'm glad your getting some continuing education.  And don't take this the wrong way as it isn't meant that way, but after 30 years of training it took a trip to Korea to learn little tweaks?  And after 30 years of training, you weren't getting power generation correct?  It shouldn't have taken a trip to Korea to learn/correct these things.  And too be honest, that is colored belt material, at least in the schools I've trained.  I'm not suggesting that a 5th Dan with 30 years should 'know' everything or that there isn't stuff we can always improve on here and there.  But by 30 years in and 5th Dan one should not need a trip to Korea to tweak anything.  

The following 'you' is a generic 'you'.  

As a 5th Dan (or anyone that has a BB in Kukki-TKD), what NEW material have you learned that wasn't already known at a lower colored belt?  I don't mean gaining expertise at something.  I don't mean a tweak here and there.  And I certainly don't mean learning yet another form with b/p/k movements that were learned at yellow belt (i.e. the form is only increased in length and subjectively speaking, increased technical difficulty but still has the same punches and blocks and kicks that were learned early on in training).  Did you learn new ways to strike as a BB?  New blocks after BB? Did you learn a new throw or lock or something?  What was the new concept that you didn't know existed as a yellow or green or brown belt?  



> I feel if you aren't learning new stuff, then you're likely stuck in your own dojang, doing the same thing day in/day out.  People need to get out there, to learn from other seniors.



I agree with you 100% on this point.  



> The simple answer is that in Korea people (often children) train 5 times per week.  This works out to about 250 hours of training for 1st Poom (or Dan).  People outside Korea training 1-2x per week should take 3-4 years.  It's simple maths.



Yes, I've heard this before.  However, talking with many people that have trained in Korea, TKD training for children is more of a P.E. activity and often isn't more than an hour (and sometimes less).  Exceptions of course, but time has to be taken for school and other things.  And outside of Korea I've experienced more along the lines of 2-4 times a week for students.  Depending on the age level the classes were at least one hour if not an hour and a half.  So let's say the Korean child is training 2 hours a day for five days a week just to have an even 10 hours of training time per week.  I don't think that is the norm according to those I've talked with as well as videos of the performance of these children (not meant to be unkind but simply factual).  Now let's take the American or Canadian or British child (or teen) that is training 3 times a week for an hour and a half for 4 1/2 hours per week.  That isn't counting personal training time.  So let's just assume for the sake of an example that the Korean child is actually training twice as much as the non-Korean child (or teen or adult).  So that should be two years for the non-Korean to reach BB and not three or four years.  So we have some choices:


Korean children really train really long hours each and every day (typical performance does not bear this out nor does commentary from many of those that have visited Korea and viewed their training).
Korean children are just better at TKD than non-Korean children (see above, not to mention that would be a blatant racial stereo-type).
Non-Korean's training time is lengthened to make more money.

I've asked this before but never gotten an answer from anyone;  The cost of a first Dan cert here in America is (I believe) $85?  Is it the same equivalent for the Korean child's first Dan?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 6, 2014)

I'm not a TKD practitioner, but I think talk about the presence or absence of new techniques in the curriculum past a certain level is missing the point.  In western boxing or Muay Thai you can learn pretty much all the techniques in the system within the first 6 months.  After that you can spend many years and thousands of hours of training learning to get better at actually applying the techniques against an opponent who is determined to defeat you.  Even if you have been training for years, a good coach will be able to help you improve something - distancing, timing, setups, tactical application, body mechanics, strategy.  I would hope that the same would apply in TKD.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 6, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not a TKD practitioner, but I think talk about the presence or absence of new techniques in the curriculum past a certain level is missing the point.  In western boxing or Muay Thai you can learn pretty much all the techniques in the system within the first 6 months.  After that you can spend many years and thousands of hours of training learning to get better at actually applying the techniques against an opponent who is determined to defeat you.  Even if you have been training for years, a good coach will be able to help you improve something - distancing, timing, setups, tactical application, body mechanics, strategy.  I would hope that the same would apply in TKD.



Tony, your point is valid.  I would offer however that boxing and MT (and others) don't have a belt system in place.  So that would bring up the question of 'what is the purpose of a belt system in the first place'?  The obvious answer(s) would be to structure the curriculum/goal setting/section a class according to experience (among other reasons).  So in TKD (specifically KKW-TKD since the conversation has swung towards that brand), is there really anything new beyond the first Dan?  I would submit no, not really.  So then what is the purpose of having all the Dan ranks?  That kinda just leads to another conversation or two (and already has many times).  I would submit that for some arts/schools the various ranks, including the Dan ranks, truly have new information to expand what has already been learned.  For other schools/arts/organizations it is more for $ and status.  That is just my personal view.


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## Thousand Kicks (Jan 6, 2014)

There is so much to say about this, but I'll try to condense it.

My first question would be, What type of material or techniques are you expecting to see after Black Belt? 


I thought Tony's response was about as good as there could be. Martial Arts training or sport training is usually patterned in the same manner. In the beginning you are just a sponge soaking up information. By intermediate levels, you are learning some application, but you are still mostly being fed infomation from trainers or senior students. By the time you are an advanced student or athelete, your training shifts from learning new techniques to sharpening the techniques you already know.


Look at a sport like tennis. There are only so many ways to hit a ball. So what differentiates a pro player from an amatuer? What separates an amatuer from a casual player? All pretty much know the same strokes, but the attention to detail and the application are worlds apart.


Lastly, if you are enrolled in a sport centered school, you may always be disappointed at the lack of self defense training you get to do. But, a student should be aware when signing up or observing this while progressing through the lower ranks. If this is your predicament, you may have no other option than looking for a new place to train.


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2014)

K-man said:


> Interesting. We train more than 250 hours a year and it takes about 6 years to 1st Dan.
> :asian:



To be fair, you're talking about Goju-ryu.  It *IS* a more *dense* system.  (Obligatory no offense intended to anyone.  I have a big foot in the TKD camp as well so I love and respect TKD as well.)


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 6, 2014)

Thousand Kicks said:


> My first question would be, What type of material or techniques are you expecting to see after Black Belt?



Very reasonable question.  Let me toss this out for consideration;  would it be reasonable for an art to offer new information up to the point of becoming a master?  Let's take TKD for example.  Many brands of TKD have the 4th Dan as master.  Would it be reasonable to expect there to be new information up to this point?  So a second Dan knows material that a first Dan has never been exposed to before, in addition to having more training time with the material up to that point.  And if you (generic you) don't feel that is reasonable, what do you feel the purpose of belts beyond first Dan would be?  



> I thought Tony's response was about as good as there could be. Martial Arts training or sport training is usually patterned in the same manner. In the beginning you are just a sponge soaking up information. By intermediate levels, you are learning some application, but you are still mostly being fed infomation from trainers or senior students. By the time you are an advanced student or athelete, your training shifts from learning new techniques to sharpening the techniques you already know.
> 
> 
> Look at a sport like tennis. There are only so many ways to hit a ball. So what differentiates a pro player from an amatuer? What separates an amatuer from a casual player? All pretty much know the same strokes, but the attention to detail and the application are worlds apart.



Okay, but I would again add that sports such as tennis don't have a belt ranking system.  True, a sport may have other types of ranking systems.  So are we assuming that if the martial art in question is really a martial sport that the belt system is more for paring off equally experienced students?  Would any other reason exist for the belt system in these types of arts?  



> Lastly, if you are enrolled in a sport centered school, you may always be disappointed at the lack of self defense training you get to do. But, a student should be aware when signing up or observing this while progressing through the lower ranks. If this is your predicament, you may have no other option than looking for a new place to train.



Agree 100%.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 6, 2014)

K-man said:


> Interesting. We train more than 250 hours a year and it takes about 6 years to 1st Dan.
> :asian:



My reply is a little off-topic, but kinda-sorta touches on it, and your post brings it to mind.  In the past we've often discussed going away from a multi-level Dan system.  In place of it, use a training log system.  For example, someone could say they've been a BB for 20 years.  Okay, but what does that mean really?  Does it mean they've consistently trained for the last 20 years?  Or does it mean they became a BB 20 years ago but haven't trained three minutes since?  This is where logged training hours come into play.  

Let's make up some numbers just for discussion.  Let's say it takes 500 hours to become a BB (as well as successfully passing a test).  How one arrives at the required 500 hours depends on a couple of factors (the structure of the school and availability of classes and the seriousness of the student).  Once the student reaches the 500 hours (or whatever the actual requirement may be), and they successfully pass a test they become a BB.  They again log their training hours after this point.  In this way, you can differentiate between a 20 year BB that has 6000 logged hours and one that has 501 hours in the same 20 year period.

Now one could also do the same with belt levels as well.  Which brings us back to the point of what, if anything, is learned for each Dan level?  

Now to be clear, I'm not saying it is wrong for an art to not have 'new' material after the first Dan and having 'experience' count for promotions.  Just as it isn't wrong for an art to have new material for a Dan to learn at each level.  As long as the art is clear on the point and the student is satisfied with whatever the requirements are to be promoted.


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## Kframe (Jan 6, 2014)

Kong, your posts about training time are raising some interesting questions in my mind with regards to the ATA. Sure they have some issues, but maybe there is a reason they promote the way they do. (not counting the money reason)  

I wonder if the ATA gets more BS then they deserve.. I just wanna spar one, under mma rules, and see for my self how good of martial artists they are.


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2014)

Kframe said:


> I wonder if the ATA gets more BS then they deserve.. I just wanna spar one, under mma rules, and see for my self how good of martial artists they are.



What would that prove?  MMA rules sparring is not their forte.  That would be like challenging a chess player to a backgammon game and then making an evaluation of how "good" he is based upon it.


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## Kframe (Jan 6, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> What would that prove?  MMA rules sparring is not their forte.  That would be like challenging a chess player to a backgammon game and then making an evaluation of how "good" he is based upon it.



Actually it is now. From my conversations here in town, they start there  MMA sparring rules at black belt. They also train in basic BJJ and standing grappling. Hence my desire to spar under mma rules..


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 6, 2014)

Kframe said:


> Actually it is now. From my conversations here in town, they start there  MMA sparring rules at black belt. They also train in basic BJJ and standing grappling. Hence my desire to spar under mma rules..



That is very interesting, I did not know that.  Is that organization wide?  I wonder how long they've been doing this and what their reasoning was for incorporating this training?


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2014)

Kframe said:


> Actually it is now. From my conversations here in town, they start there  MMA sparring rules at black belt. They also train in basic BJJ and standing grappling. Hence my desire to spar under mma rules..



You're not looking at the bigger picture.  MMA rules competition is not a primary activity for the ATA.  It may be a tertiary, not even secondary, activity for some schools but it is not the first, second, third, or even 8th offering I would expect the ATA to list out if someone were to inquire about their curriculum.  

That's the point.  You're trying to define a large group of people by something a majority of their members don't even do.

Now if you want to challenge their point sparring champion from your age category, sure go knock yourself out.  They have a huge circuit built around that activity.


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> That is very interesting, I did not know that.  *Is that organization wide?*  I wonder how long they've been doing this and what their reasoning was for incorporating this training?



No.  Don't read more into it than there is.  It's an optional offering that some schools have, but that's really no different than some KKW-affiliated instructors also having an add-on hapkido or weapons program.


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## K-man (Jan 6, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> To be fair, you're talking about Goju-ryu.  It *IS* a more *dense* system.  (Obligatory no offense intended to anyone.  I have a big foot in the TKD camp as well so I love and respect TKD as well.)


Also Aikido. I've trained seven years or about 1200 hours and still have another year of training until I might be eligible for Nidan. In fact it might even be eight years, I can't remember. I always wondered why there were so many high ranking TKD guys around. *Kong Soo Do*&#8203;'s post also explains how we had that young TKD guy, 23 from memory, who was an expert in almost every style and I think 6th Dan in TKD. When I started training the highest ranked guys in Australia were 5th Dan.
:asian:


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## Kframe (Jan 6, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> That is very interesting, I did not know that.  Is that organization wide?  I wonder how long they've been doing this and what their reasoning was for incorporating this training?



From what I can tell, and Balrog can confirm this. It is organization wide. Google tells me it started in 2009. I remember watching a Youtube documentary of the ATA guys training with the Gracie family to learn BJJ and bring it to the Organization.  Though Balrog has stated he is not a fan of it, and im sure there are plenty that are not but they offer it for those who want it.


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## Kframe (Jan 6, 2014)

Dancing, Many ATA websites mention it prominently so, id say its a lil more important then 9th place. The fact that, at 3rd dan, ground fighting is required to test says something.


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2014)

Kframe said:


> From what I can tell, and Balrog can confirm this. It is organization wide. Google tells me it started in 2009. I remember watching a Youtube documentary of the ATA guys training with the Gracie family to learn BJJ and bring it to the Organization.  Though Balrog has stated he is not a fan of it, and im sure there are plenty that are not but they offer it for those who want it.



Hopefully Balrog will chime in, but my niece and nephew are both involved with the ATA.  They have their 2nd and 3rd dans respectively.  No MMA training.


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2014)

Kframe said:


> Dancing, Many ATA websites mention it prominently so, id say its a lil more important then 9th place. The fact that, at 3rd dan, ground fighting is required to test says something.



Got a link to the ATA testing requirements I can view?  I can't find the official one from from ATA HQ online but as I said my niece and nephew are ATA BBs with nary a repetition of pulling guard in their training.

This list from an ATA-affiliated school doesn't list any ground fighting requirements either.  http://www.martialartsnewhampshire....ents/rank_testing_requirements.html?cookies=1  I believe any such material would be optional, but certainly Balrog would know for certain.


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## SJON (Jan 6, 2014)

Ahhh ... Can I link to a videoclip of my own, showing how I think material might be developed after 1st Dan, without breaking forum rules?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2014)

SJON said:


> Ahhh ... Can I link to a videoclip of my own, showing how I think material might be developed after 1st Dan, without breaking forum rules?



Posting links to videos is fine. If you're concerned that it might violate the TOS (for example, with regards to advertising) then send the link to any of the moderation team and we can check it out.


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## Thousand Kicks (Jan 6, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Very reasonable question.  Let me toss this out for consideration;  would it be reasonable for an art to offer new information up to the point of becoming a master?  Let's take TKD for example.  Many brands of TKD have the 4th Dan as master.  Would it be reasonable to expect there to be new information up to this point?  So a second Dan knows material that a first Dan has never been exposed to before, in addition to having more training time with the material up to that point.  And if you (generic you) don't feel that is reasonable, what do you feel the purpose of belts beyond first Dan would be?



I think it is reasonable to expect that your training be more rigorous and more focused with emphasis on trying to do things correctly as opposed to just doing them. My school is more sport oriented than anything else. In a typical class the instructor may call out a combination. Usually he will ask that the black belts add a technique or footwork that the colored belts won't do. He will also come over to us and give a brief explanation or ask us to provide an explanation of the drill. White belts are simply expected to do the combo the best they can. Colored belts will receive corrections about posture or balance. Black belts are usually asked to do more and envision scenarios where the technique would be used. in this case we are privy to information that lower ranks are not.





Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, but I would again add that sports such as tennis don't have a belt ranking system.  True, a sport may have other types of ranking systems.  So are we assuming that if the martial art in question is really a martial sport that the belt system is more for paring off equally experienced students?  Would any other reason exist for the belt system in these types of arts?



Well, the belt system was created as a way to mark progress and help differentiate experience levels. Belt systems were not created with many martial arts the ranking system came along much later. In many cases the extra knowledge you refer to was handed down to students who demonstrated character, discipline, and loyalty. It really had nothing to do with a belt or a rank. I would agree that modern day martial arts puts more emphasis on the thing around your waist versus the time and effort put into improving yourself.


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## Kframe (Jan 6, 2014)

Dancing I read it in another thread long since dead on another forum.  For the life of me  I cant find the article any more.  Give that Class's are standardized at ATA schools, id say its a high likely hood its taught there.  

Honestly I think the ATA MMA thing is fantastic. It at least gives one group of TKD guys a reason to keep there hands up and actually use there hands for defense and this thing we call punching.(No offense guys, I couldn't resist the dig. Feel free to dig me for dojo hopping and being impatient with everything.)

Seriously whats up with the stereotypical BS about guard pulling? You do realize there is more to ground then that right, plus many more ways to take you down. That's just one way.. Good lord..

Edit to add. I May have read it wrong. I don't know I still cant find the dang article I read.  All I know is it started in 2009 and is spreading.  Plenty of videos out there of it in action.  I hope Balrog chimes in and sets it straight.


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## msmitht (Jan 6, 2014)

Kframe said:


> Actually it is now. From my conversations here in town, they start there  MMA sparring rules at black belt. They also train in basic BJJ and standing grappling. Hence my desire to spar under mma rules..



I have seen ATA MMA on YouTube and its a joke. Facemasks on their headgear and foam gloves/boots. As to their bjj training-it consists of individual techniques without resistance and under the guidance of a less than blue belt(bjj) instructor. Blue is the first belt you earn, for no fee BTW, and it typically takes 18-24 months. At that level you understand a few things and the basic strategy but not the whole picture. Only with 8-10 years training 2-4 classes a week under a qualified black belt can you fully understand bjj and be able to teach it properly. Otherwise you have no business teaching it to others. 
As to guard pulling-we only do that in tournaments. Otherwise we slam our opponent, mount and beat them silly until they turn over to avoid being hit. Then its time to go to sleep.


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## dancingalone (Jan 6, 2014)

Kframe said:


> Dancing I read it in another thread long since dead on another forum.  For the life of me  I cant find the article any more.  Give that Class's are standardized at ATA schools, id say its a high likely hood its taught there.



Really you're going to stick to your guns on that?  I would suggest more research might be in order on your part.  Yes, ATA has some optional MMA training.  No, it is not mandatory across the board to earn dan rank or even a 3rd dan.  As I said, I have family who can attest otherwise.  Unless Balrog jumps in with a affirmation saying otherwise, I think you're very wrong on this.      



Kframe said:


> Honestly I think the ATA MMA thing is fantastic. It at least gives one group of TKD guys a reason to keep there hands up and actually use there hands for defense and this thing we call punching.(No offense guys, I couldn't resist the dig. Feel free to dig me for dojo hopping and being impatient with everything.)



I don't make any value judgement either way.  I honestly don't care.  People should train whatever makes them happy.  I do question whether it is relevant to challenge ATA members to a MMA rules fight to see if they are 'good' martial artists, and I think you're probably fixated on the wrong things when such things occur to you.   



Kframe said:


> Seriously whats up with the stereotypical BS about guard pulling? You do realize there is more to ground then that right, plus many more ways to take you down. That's just one way.. Good lord..



Not sure why this simple throwaway example would be an item of sensitivity for you.  But if it matters, I do train BJJ from time to time with a goal of getting my blue eventually.  Pulling guard was something I learned in my very first private lesson.  <shrugs>



Kframe said:


> Edit to add. I May have read it wrong. I don't know I still cant find the dang article I read.  All I know is it started in 2009 and is spreading.  Plenty of videos out there of it in action.  I hope Balrog chimes in and sets it straight.



Me too.  As I said, I think you're mistaken but I'll be happy to investigate if my familial experience is out of the ordinary if he says so.  I think not, knowing how things are at the kiddo's school and from chauffeuring them to my share of tournaments.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 7, 2014)

Thousand Kicks said:


> Well, the belt system was created as a way to mark progress and help differentiate experience levels. Belt systems were not created with many martial arts the ranking system came along much later.



Yes, IIRC it began with Judo.  The original color scheme was simply white, brown and black.  More than a quarter of a century later Funakoshi Sensei requested to adopt the Dan system to Karate.  I believe he was the first to actually issue the Dan rank in Karate.  He promoted several to Shodan and a couple to Nidan around the mid 1920's.  I caught on relatively quickly after that with many/most Karate systems adopting it within the next 20 years or so.  I remember the account of Uechi Kannei Sensei doing a mass promotion circa 1948 where he promoted quite a few up to and including Godan.  These of course were senior students with many years of training.


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## Jaeimseu (Jan 7, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Korean children really train really long hours each and every day (typical performance does not bear this out nor does commentary from many of those that have visited Korea and viewed their training).
> Korean children are just better at TKD than non-Korean children (see above, not to mention that would be a blatant racial stereo-type).
> Non-Korean's training time is lengthened to make more money.
> 
> I've asked this before but never gotten an answer from anyone;  The cost of a first Dan cert here in America is (I believe) $85?  Is it the same equivalent for the Korean child's first Dan?



In my experience, many Korean kids train Monday through Friday. The majority don't train for crazy amounts of time each day. The ones who do, it shows in their performance. The 'typical' performance is much like the typical performance elsewhere.

I don't think Koreans are naturally better at Taekwondo than other nationalities but there is a very high concentration of top class instruction to be found in a relatively small area. Instructors physical skills tend to be very good. Skills that might be considered special in the States (like full splits) are the norm. 

As for training time, I think the perception of what black belt means plays a lot into that. The typical (totally average) student at similar periods of training look pretty similar to me. So an average 2nd poom in Korea and an average 1st poom in the US probably appear similar.

The cost for a dan certificate from Kukkiwon is the same regardless of nationality.


Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## SJON (Jan 7, 2014)

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that, in my opinion, Kukki TKD's biggest failing apart from the general lack of emphasis on hand technique is the lack of any substantial syllabus after 1st Dan. An obvious area for improvement would be to look deeper into things like pattern application and self-defence. For want of an "official" syllabus of this type, I spent many years and a lot of research and effort developing my own.

With kind permission from the Mods, here is an example of the kind of thing I mean:






That's me in the pirate headband and the ballet slippers. Excellent fashion sense, I'm sure you'll agree.

Cheers,

Simon


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## skribs (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm going to reply to this thread as an armchair expert (read:  I like to read blurbs on the internet and I'm currently 9th keub).  Look at a technique like the front kick.  A master doing the front kick is going to do it really, really well because he's practiced it probably tens of millions of times over the course of a couple decades.  If he had techniques that he'd learned at 4th or 5th Dan, he probably isn't going to be nearly as good at those as he is at the basic techniques he learned as a colored belt, because he isn't nearly as practiced.  Granted, he probably is going to be better at these new techniques than a colored belt is at the front kick, but he won't have the level of fine-tuning practice and muscle memory that he does with the simple front kick.

In my school, one big difference (actually at high red to start preparing you for black belt) is that the black belts are expected to be leaders.  As you go up the keub ranks, you learn the techniques, but you also have the forms and one-step sparring defensive drills (both grappling and striking).  Most people tend to forget the earlier drills as they advance (they're encouraged to remember them and practice at home, but most people forget stuff after they take a test on it, just like in school), but as you go up in Dan ranks you're expected to know all of the forms and drills in order to help train the newer students.

I think part of the problem is that once you understand the basic techniques and basic mechanics of the art, there isn't a whole lot more that you can "learn".  You learn new forms and combinations and constantly work on fine-tuning your techniques and muscle memory.  A curriculum at that point would seem rather arbitrary, because each individual might need to work on different things.  A lot of us ask the "why" questions now, and I think as we continue to grow as artists we start thinking more outside the box.

I think the black belt is an arbitrary line in this slow growth of a student.  It's kind of like a birthday.  With a few exceptions, nothing really changes from the day before your birthday until the day after.  You only aged 2 days during that time, but you can now say you're a year older.  I think the Black Belt is kind of the same.  There's not a huge difference between 1st keub and 1st dan, but it marks that you've at least achieved a certain level of proficiency.  If that makes sense.


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2014)

skribs said:


> I'm going to reply to this thread as an armchair expert (read:  I like to read blurbs on the internet and I'm currently 9th keub).  Look at a technique like the front kick.  A master doing the front kick is going to do it really, really well because he's practiced it probably tens of millions of times over the course of a couple decades.*  If he had techniques that he'd learned at 4th or 5th Dan*, he probably isn't going to be nearly as good at those as he is at the basic techniques he learned as a colored belt, because he isn't nearly as practiced.  Granted, he probably is going to be better at these new techniques than a colored belt is at the front kick, but he won't have the level of fine-tuning practice and muscle memory that he does with the simple front kick.


The body can only be struck, kicked or twisted in a finite number of ways. You don't learn new techniques at 4th or 5th dan, you know them all way before black belt. What you do learn after black belt, hopefully, is how to make them work more effectively.
:asian:


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## SJON (Jan 7, 2014)

I agree. But for that to work, you need to be shown the effective techniques _before _BB, not just "the motions".

To clarify, I would ideally teach this stuff (as in the videoclip) from white belt, suitably structured per grade.

But reality dictates that a lot of students who come to me are high coloured belts and BB's who have only ever been exposed to kicking and performance art patterns, and so this becomes their "black belt syllabus".

Cheers,

Simon


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 7, 2014)

SJON said:


> Earlier in the thread I mentioned that, in my opinion, Kukki TKD's biggest failing apart from the general lack of emphasis on hand technique is the lack of any substantial syllabus after 1st Dan. An obvious area for improvement would be to look deeper into things like pattern application and self-defence.
> Simon



There are those in KKW-TKD though Simon that would fight you tooth and nail to prevent either pattern applications (as you demonstrate) and/or self defense applications.  To an extent though I can understand the rationale behind that position.  KKW-TKD is not centered on self-defense and could really be considered the anti-thesis of self defense.  That isn't meant as a slight towards KKW-TKD, simply observing that it is a sport.  So those in this branch of TKD would have to learn or perhaps re-learn certain aspects of the art.  This would take time to gain proficiency.  And it probably would not sell as well as the sport side, particularly to children which is the bread and butter for many/most KKW-TKD (and other) schools.  Certainly Itosu Sensei understood that you cannot teach 'adult' karate to children as it would not be the responsible thing to do until they had matured to the point of understanding the full weight of the training and possible implications of it's use. 

I think that in some schools, if done properly, an adult version of KKW-TKD that emphasizes self defense applications, alternate forms applications would be great IF the instructor(s) truly understood both.  But as it is, KKW-TKD fills a niche that some people want and that is fine.  That doesn't mean that other brands of TKD, or even a KKW-TKD school that is willing to branch out need to remain locked into a strictly sport model.  Again, that is the richness of TKD or any 'brand' of karate.


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## SJON (Jan 8, 2014)

I think you're right, David, and I too think that's fine; it has its place in the general scheme of things.

My approach stems from research I started for my own benefit, i.e. because I was dissatisfied with what I came to realise KK-TKD is or has become and I was too stubborn to give up the years of training I'd already invested and go off and do HKD or JJ or something. Also, I was aware of the historical (I mean post-WWII) nature of TKD/TSD/KSD as a strong fighting/SD art, and recognised the potential of the existing material, if not the way it is conventionally approached.

So I developed (and continue to do so) this syllabus which is probably about 75% built around non-pattern-related striking and defensive skills and strategies, i.e. the effective application of basic percussive hand technique for SD, _not _the joint-locking and throwing aspect most people associate hosinsul with. Apart from that, there's the pattern application stuff, which is what people tend to associate with me and is essentially the "plan B" material dealing with what to do if you're grabbed or clinched, and how to use takedowns.

The key thing is that I have no intention of saying that anyone is wrong, that their TKD is not "real" or of value. I recognise, as you've described, David, that KK-TKD's function and focus is chiefly a sporting and educational one, and that's fine with me. So what I teach is an *option *that people can take on or ignore as they wish as an addition to their TKD. In fact, I only have a very few students who train "my" methodology centred on hand technique and SD full-time. The rest of the people I teach are regular TKD people who I do special sessions or workshops for on a weekly or monthly basis.

So, what you see in the video (there are a couple more on the Youtube channel) is an example of one aspect of the "plan B" material that is part of my syllabus. It's stuff people can incorporate as an alternative to their HKD-style hosinsul practice (not that there is even much of that taught any more, from what I can observe), with the advantage of not having to learn a whole new set of techniques because they already know the _movements _from the patterns.

Best regards,

Simon


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## andyjeffries (Jan 8, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> If it were an isolated situation I'd be inclined to agree with you.  However, unfortunately, it isn't.  I know an 7th Dan in G.B. as well and have talked with him many times over the years.  His experience was the same.  My own instructor who is a KKW master (now retired) has related the same feelings.



I'd be interested to know the name of the 7th Dan in GB that feels that way, but I understand if you'd rather not say...



Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, I'm glad your getting some continuing education.  And don't take this the wrong way as it isn't meant that way, but after 30 years of training it took a trip to Korea to learn little tweaks?


 
No, sorry, I guess I didn't explain that very well...  I've been getting tweaks all along the journey, but I was just expressing that even after nearly 30 years of learning, I went on a trip and still learnt loads of new things.  Therefore I was trying to explain that it hasn't been 3-5 years of training and repeating for 25 years, that I feel I'm still learning now and used the example of me going to Korea as an example of a trip I went on and learnt a load in one trip.

Whenever my Grandmaster visits I learn a load too, the same as any time I train in other dojangs or visiting instructors teach my class.



Kong Soo Do said:


> And after 30 years of training, you weren't getting power generation correct?  It shouldn't have taken a trip to Korea to learn/correct these things.  And too be honest, that is colored belt material, at least in the schools I've trained.  I'm not suggesting that a 5th Dan with 30 years should 'know' everything or that there isn't stuff we can always improve on here and there.  But by 30 years in and 5th Dan one should not need a trip to Korea to tweak anything.



Don't get me wrong, I was generating power before and hadn't been corrected, but it was a subtle difference that really helped with the feel of the movements and how power is generated.

And really - "30 years in and 5th Dan one should not need a trip to Korea to tweak anything"?  If you agree that there's always stuff to improve on and that there are a great number of high ranking seniors in Korea (whereas in my country we only have one 9th Dan for example and maybe a handful of 8th Dans), why be so dismissive of going to Korea?



Kong Soo Do said:


> The following 'you' is a generic 'you'.



OK...



Kong Soo Do said:


> As a 5th Dan (or anyone that has a BB in Kukki-TKD), what NEW material have you learned that wasn't already known at a lower colored belt?  I don't mean gaining expertise at something.  I don't mean a tweak here and there.  And I certainly don't mean learning yet another form with b/p/k movements that were learned at yellow belt (i.e. the form is only increased in length and subjectively speaking, increased technical difficulty but still has the same punches and blocks and kicks that were learned early on in training).  Did you learn new ways to strike as a BB?  New blocks after BB? Did you learn a new throw or lock or something?  What was the new concept that you didn't know existed as a yellow or green or brown belt?



I would say the things learnt post-1st dan level are definitely more tweaks.  However, there are definitely new strikes, blocks, locks, throws.  There are concepts that may have been mentioned at kup ranks, but were only solidified, sunk in or only made sense post-1st dan.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 8, 2014)

My experience reflects that of Master Jeffries. I have learned a lot of new stuff since 1st Dan, throws, locks, holds, chokes, strangles, vital and pressure point striking, falling, rolling, demonstration techniques, acrobatics, weapon work. The cultural, behavioural and philosophical aspects have become much more of a feature.

I know other students of Taekwondo who have had less positive experiences too. I guess it depends on where and with whom you learn. 

Gnarlie


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 9, 2014)

andyjeffries said:


> I'd be interested to know the name of the 7th Dan in GB that feels that way, but I understand if you'd rather not say...



I'll give you a shout on PM Andy


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## EddieCyrax (Jan 9, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> My reply is a little off-topic, but kinda-sorta touches on it, and your post brings it to mind. In the past we've often discussed going away from a multi-level Dan system. In place of it, use a training log system. For example, someone could say they've been a BB for 20 years. Okay, but what does that mean really? Does it mean they've consistently trained for the last 20 years? Or does it mean they became a BB 20 years ago but haven't trained three minutes since? This is where logged training hours come into play.
> 
> Let's make up some numbers just for discussion. Let's say it takes 500 hours to become a BB (as well as successfully passing a test). How one arrives at the required 500 hours depends on a couple of factors (the structure of the school and availability of classes and the seriousness of the student). Once the student reaches the 500 hours (or whatever the actual requirement may be), and they successfully pass a test they become a BB. They again log their training hours after this point. In this way, you can differentiate between a 20 year BB that has 6000 logged hours and one that has 501 hours in the same 20 year period.
> 
> ...



I agree in theory here.  My one concern is not everyone's training is equal in time/intensity/production.  Not sure logging time is aways the best measure of skill anymore than number of years served.


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## Archtkd (Jan 11, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> That fortunately doesn't speak for all of TKD.  There are many TKD schools and organizations that put 'meat and potatoes' into the training, both before and after BB.  And to be clear, learning yet another block/punch/kick form isn't what I'm referring to as meat and potatoes education.



Based on my personal experience that statement could speak for many Kukkiwon style taekwondo dojangs in St. Louis,  around the U.s and the  world as a whole.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 11, 2014)

EddieCyrax said:


> I agree in theory here.  My one concern is not everyone's training is equal in time/intensity/production.  Not sure logging time is aways the best measure of skill anymore than number of years served.



It certainly isn't perfect, and like anything it can be abused.  Boil away the fluff and feathers and a black belt (as I've said for years) is a personal thing and really can't be compared to another.  Perhaps not even in the same school, organization or system.  Really, how would you compare a TKD BB that took one year to one that took six years?  Is the one-year TKD BB a sponge and really good while the six-year BB took a long time to 'get it'....or is the one-year TKD BB in a McDojang and the six-year TKD BB in a hard core school that has a LOT of meat to the training?

Answer is that it can go either way.  Bottom line is what happens either in the ring in a competition for sport TKD or in the street against a real bad guy for SD TKD.  That speaks far more than the color of the cloth.


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## skribs (Jan 12, 2014)

> The body can only be struck, kicked or twisted in a finite number of  ways. You don't learn new techniques at 4th or 5th dan, you know them  all way before black belt. What you do learn after black belt,  hopefully, is how to make them work more effectively.



While this is true, I think the grappling side is much more complex.  There are only so many hand/arm strikes and only so many _effective_ kicks (not including those that have you just spin around more whilst in the air), but there are different ways you can manipulate each joint from any position.  Having done wrestling and looked at manuals for judo/bjj, I feel the grappling side is much more complex, and since it is more of a minor part of the curriculum, I can see learning more and more of these techniques.


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## msmitht (Jan 12, 2014)

skribs said:


> While this is true, I think the grappling side is much more complex.  There are only so many hand/arm strikes and only so many _effective_ kicks (not including those that have you just spin around more whilst in the air), but there are different ways you can manipulate each joint from any position.  Having done wrestling and looked at manuals for judo/bjj, I feel the grappling side is much more complex, and since it is more of a minor part of the curriculum, I can see learning more and more of these techniques.



My bjj instructor, a 6th degree, just showed me a new sweep he learned last month. He got his black belt in 1988. Lots to learn for me


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 18, 2014)

The other  night in class I told the BBS something I did when doing line drills. This was to vary the technique within the parameters of the drill particularly with the cadence of multiple / consecutive  (More than one with same leg) kicks. For instance if the drill was  Hook / Turning (Roundhouse) / Side, The cadence of repetitions could be varied 1-2-3, 1,2-3, 1-2,3,1,2,3  with ","representing no pause, and "-" representing slight pause.  This avoids falling into a rut and being able to vary timing to throw off the opponent.


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## MiaPhins (Jan 18, 2014)

New here, didn't want to start a new thread for this question. I did Tae Kwon Do for years and got my black belt as a kid. I stopped in High School and now am thinking about going back. I assume I would go right back in as a black belt?


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## TKDTony2179 (Jan 18, 2014)

MiaPhins said:


> New here, didn't want to start a new thread for this question. I did Tae Kwon Do for years and got my black belt as a kid. I stopped in High School and now am thinking about going back. I assume I would go right back in as a black belt?



Depends on the teacher or you. If you are going under a new teacher then his curriculum cold be a whole lot different from your old instructor.


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## TKDTony2179 (Jan 18, 2014)

I feel like if you want more you must do more. I did feel like after reaching 1st degree that learning new forms and a few new kicks like twist kick and axe kick was all I needed and once I hit 3rd I would be good to go. Well now that I am third I will now say no. We have always focused on the striking abilities of TKD and very little on the cqc part of TKD or the little clinch work that TKD had to offer. 

So now that I am at the rank of 3rd I am focusing on just that. The cqc skills and true understand of hyungs of the chang hon patterns. It is hard to find people that will work with you so you can obtain a higher skill set but I do what I can.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 19, 2014)

MiaPhins said:


> New here, didn't want to start a new thread for this question. I did Tae Kwon Do for years and got my black belt as a kid. I stopped in High School and now am thinking about going back. I assume I would go right back in as a black belt?




Depends. There are lots of different TKD systems, so the curriculum might well be radically different. How long you've been out is also a factor. If you've been out a year, kept up on your skills on your own, and are returning to the same general system, then probably. If you've been out for years, haven't practiced, don't remember the forms and are joining a school with a different curriculum (or even the same, since you don't remember it) then why would you expect (or want) to wear a belt you don't deserve?

Better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 19, 2014)

skribs said:


> There are only so many hand/arm strikes and only so many _effective_ kicks (not including those that have you just spin around more whilst in the air), but there are different ways you can manipulate each joint from any position.



There are a finite number of kicks and strikes but there are magnitudes larger number of combinations.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 19, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Tony, your point is valid.  I would offer however that boxing and MT (and others) don't have a belt system in place.



Well they do sort of -They have title belts and they belt each other around a bit.


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## Archtkd (Jan 19, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.



The dojang floor usually won't lie: It will tell who's, who.


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## Balrog (Feb 7, 2014)

Kframe said:


> Hi guys.  Its been awhile since I hanged out in this forum. During my search for a martial art, I talked to many instructors. Since I talked to the KKW instructor first ill ask this here. He said that it takes 3-4 years to get to black belt and that is when you start learning the real art. I remember being very frustrated at that because, why waste 4 years of time not learning the real art.
> 
> I get it now, that he was referring to learning the basics before black belt..   So ill ask this here.   What changes after you get that 1st degree?


There is a change that occurs over time during the lower Black Belt ranks, where your instructor become less of a direct, hands-on instructor and becomes more of a mentor.  And I think that occurs because, as you said, you've learned the basics and you begin to teach yourself.

An analogy might be a college prof who teaches a freshman class in, lets' say, chemistry.  The prof also teaches a graduate thesis project class.  The classes would be taught quite differently.  The freshman doesn't know chemistry at all.  The grad student, however, has several years experience and knows the basics.


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## Kframe (Feb 8, 2014)

I have been thinking on this, and Balrog I think your correct.  In my new art that im doing, its the same way. From 0-1st kyu its all essentially the basics of the art, combined in various ways.  Its not till black that your start learning the kata and stances from the various schools in our art. 

I am starting to understand it now because just bumbling my way through some of these beginner things is difficult enough.. I shudder to think about attempting some of the kata from the Ryuha. Good lord, im struggling with the basic jumonji kata, I cant imagine jumping into the higher level kata. Scary thought. Its almost like I am having to relearn how to move all over again.. 

Mma was tough on a different level,  a more physical level. This is tough on a few different levels from mental to footwork to synching my hands with my feet.. I am tripping over my self lol. 

I think I understand now what that KKW instructor was saying, it does finally make sense.


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## 40th Alabama (Feb 10, 2014)

You get to spar with white, yellow and green belts-ouch!


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