# What the...even MORE new poomsae from Kukkiwon?



## TrueJim (Nov 18, 2017)

Kukkiwon presents eight types of ‘Adult Yougupja Poomsae’ - TKDNews


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2017)

I wonder if these will be any more widely implemented than the last new forms?


----------



## tubby (Nov 18, 2017)

the last ones were meant for top level competitors to separate them. these ones sound more like they are aimed at coured belts to help them move better. without seeing them  it sounds like a good idea. being KKW though some obscure youtube videos may be the best we can hope for as far as disseminating them goes.


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 19, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> I wonder if these will be any more widely implemented than the last new forms?



Apparently, WT has now decided that 3 of the 10 new forms that Kukkiwon introduced last year are going to be used in WT sanctioned tournaments from now on -- so presumably adoption of some of the new forms "starts now". Agreeing with tubby, it sure would be nice though if competitors had something more than YouTube videos to train with.


----------



## andyjeffries (Nov 20, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> Agreeing with tubby, it sure would be nice though if competitors had something more than YouTube videos to train with.



it's definitely coming! One of my friends was the model/demonstrator used for one of the poomsae in the Kukkiwon's official video recording. He doesn't know when they'll be released though.

Maybe I'll find out more at the Master Instructor Course next summer. I'll certainly be asking.


----------



## skribs (Nov 20, 2017)

Interesting.  At my school we still teach the more traditional Palgwe and Kibon forms.  I doubt we'll see our curriculum change.  

Personally, unless there's a really good reason to switch, I'd rather keep teaching the forms I've been familiar with and have more confidence in.  (But that's not my call).


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 20, 2017)

What is the real reason for trying to introduce a myriad of new forms?  Are the current forms not sufficient or substandard?  The article states in the opening line that they were created to promote adult TKD.  In what manner will they do this that the current forms do not?  Are these in addition to the current forms, which, in my opinion are already far too many.  

I'll stick with the mantra of 1-3 forms is all one would ever need.  That's with the caveat that I don't compete and what I teach is squarely on the martial side of the arts.


----------



## skribs (Nov 20, 2017)

Both TKD schools I've been at have had a LOT of forms.  The one I'm at now has 13 forms before Black Belt, and the one I was at before had I think 8 forms (maybe more, this was like 20 years ago) and had 25+ "exercises" which were basically mini-forms.  I say this because my experience has been that an art that uses forms will have basic forms at the earlier belts and then increase the difficulty, to include more difficult stances and more complicated movements.

I'm curious what would be the application of only having a few forms, say 1-3 forms?  And if you only have 3 forms, why have forms at all?

I hope my tone comes across as inquisitive.  I mean do disrespect and I'm not trying to be sarcastic.  This approach is different than what I'm familiar with and I would genuinely like to know why you take it.


----------



## WaterGal (Nov 20, 2017)

I get the impression that by "adults" they mean "seniors", and that KKW wants to make TKD more approachable for retirees to try.  Certainly the competition forms they released recently would NOT be suitable for that...


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 20, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> I get the impression that by "adults" they mean "seniors", and that KKW wants to make TKD more approachable for retirees to try.  Certainly the competition forms they released recently would NOT be suitable for that...



Kukkiwon refers to the new "senior" forms as being color-belt forms. I wonder if this means that seniors will be able to test for 1st dan by knowing only the new forms rather than the Taegeuk forms?


----------



## WaterGal (Nov 20, 2017)

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking - an alternative set of forms that could be used in a "Taekwondo for Seniors" program. Either at a dojang, or maybe offered at a retirement home or somewhere like that.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 20, 2017)

skribs said:


> I'm curious what would be the application of only having a few forms, say 1-3 forms?  And if you only have 3 forms, why have forms at all?



Why would you need more?  One could train just Pinan Shodan for several years worth of material (strikes, throws, ground work etc).  The entire Pinan series is a life time of training.  It's been a long while, but Uechi Kanbun Sensei once commented that either Sanseirui or Seisan is all one would need to study to know karate.  

The bulk of martial arts such as TKD and Karate use far too many forms/kata as class fillers and requirements to reach the next colored belt.  It wasn't that way originally and has only existed in that manner for less than 100 years.  Going back to Pinan Shodan, just the opening movement provides a locking principle and technique, a take down, ground work and more.  Just the opening movement!  In order to train this way a form needs to be seen as more than just a collection of blocks, strikes and kicks.  Particularly since what many/ most consider blocks...aren't blocks at all.  

My art has only one kata broken into five sections.  To truly know that one kata is to fully know and understand my art.  Nothing else is needed.  We don't need class fillers or yet another collection of the same punches and kicks in a different pattern for a belt test.  

To be honest, I could teach what many/most consider line drills i.e. the horse stance with all the punches and kicks and so forth for a year.  Within those line drills are of course strikes and kicks but also covers and escapes and balance displacement and joint locks and throws and ground work and all sorts of other principles.  

Without any intention to pat myself on the back or stroke my own ego, the highest compliment I've received was from a visiting black belt from a local school dropping in at the invitation of one of my assistance.  He watched a yellow belt class and was floored, honestly telling my assistant that my yellow belts were at a higher level than his schools black belts in terms of the material presented and how they performed.  Very proud of that compliment.  

Keep in mind that the sole focus of my school was self defense and the bulk of our students have generally been high liability professionals i.e. law enforcement, corrections, security, E.P. agents, Coast Guard and bailiffs.  The private citizens we've taught received the same training.


----------



## Finlay (Nov 20, 2017)

Are these new forms purely performance pieces?

If not, what is the purpose of them?

When I was younger I was worried about knowing enough forms. Now a little older I have realised that (depending on your goals) depth of knowledge is more important

What I current teach has no forms only partner practice as 'live' as the student can handle. I have some guys from kata/form based arts. Took a while for them to break out of the mindset of needing fixed solo practice.

I also know of a quite famous taiji and bagua practitioner who basically goes to Beijing each year to lean a new form to fill up his curriculum

I am not against forms but I am against 'empty' forms and I think Masters do a disservice to their students and their art to continually make new forms


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 21, 2017)

Finlay said:


> When I was younger I was worried about knowing enough forms. Now a little older I have realised that (depending on your goals) depth of knowledge is more important



Bingo.  As I mentioned, just one form could fill many years of valuable training in all aspects of an art i.e. striking, kicking, joint locks, throws, cavity pressing, escapes etc.  



Finlay said:


> I also know of a quite famous taiji and bagua practitioner who basically goes to Beijing each year to lean a new form to fill up his curriculum
> 
> I am not against forms but I am against 'empty' forms and I think Masters do a disservice to their students and their art to continually make new forms



Strongly agree.  Though to be fair it isn't totally their fault.  One can only teach what they in turn have been taught unless they really go above and beyond to stretch above and beyond the art.


----------



## skribs (Nov 21, 2017)

Why would you need more?  Well, let's break down the first four forms you learn at my school:

Our first form features exclusively blocks and punches, but lays the groundwork for the next several forms.  Many of our students pick up the form real fast, but many do not.  Those who have a real hard time with it include young kids (usually in the 4-8 year old range) and adults who haven't done much in the way of fine body control.  Those who have done dancing, previously done martial arts, etc. usually pick it up quick, but just to have basic footwork is tough for a lot of people.

Our next two forms both expand on the first form, adding different techniques to each form.  Form 2 adds in kicks to be worked into the hand techniques, and form 3 adds in breaks in the repetition.  Form 4 combines Forms 2 and 3 to bring it all together.  Form 4 is the form that makes the most sense, as it pertains to practical applications, but without forms 1-3 most of our students would have a significant amount of trouble with Form 4.  

We also don't expect our students to memorize every single form, but sort of do a brain flush at a few key intervals.  Once students have passed the 5 basic forms, they start the advanced forms and aren't tested on the previous ones, as the forms build on each other.  Until black belt, students only need a maximum of 5 forms (most times only 1-3) that they are working on for their current belt.  The exception is of course me, as I was on the path to be an instructor so I needed to retain everything.

Our forms work like all our other techniques:  you learn simple stuff at lower belts and more advanced stuff at higher belts.  The muscle memory, the understanding of the stances and the techniques, and simply the brain's ability to process all of the information needed to properly do the form all increase as students train, and so we can introduce more complex forms.  In some cases, maybe the techniques are just flashy and the movements are more of a dance than a martial discipline, but forms really help strengthen the muscles we need to use.

---

I'd like to see your form and how it works.  I understand non-form martial arts (which our hapkido is) and martial arts built around forms (which both Taekwondo schools I've been in have been), but I don't have much knowledge or experience of single form arts.  Do different belts learn different sections in the kata?

I will echo the sentiment of both you and Finlay:  forms for the sake of forms don't make much sense.  It's probably just that someone high ranking wants to put his spin on things, which means a redo of the curriculum.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 21, 2017)

skribs said:


> I'd like to see your form and how it works.



I can show you some works in progress.  They in no way fully relay the meat of what we teach but it's the best that can be done with this sort of medium.  It offers a _tip of the iceberg_ view of what/how we teach and was meant as a refresher and points for class discussion.

Line drills:  Advanced applications to basic line drills

Kata:  Mu Shin Shodan Kata & applications w/Videos

Bear in mind that these videos were shot shortly after I had heart surgery so I'm not at my peak by any stretch of the imagination.  Also my partner was my son who wanted to help out.  He's now taller than me!


----------



## skribs (Nov 21, 2017)

Based on those videos, I'd make the argument you have 5 forms, unless you routinely practice the 5 movements in sequence.

I'd also say they aren't forms as much as they are one-step or two-step drills, at least if you're going to make an analogy to Taekwondo (or at least the Taekwondo at the schools I have learned).  At our school we have different defense skills we learn, such as punch defense, kick defense, hand grabs, body grabs, etc.  Most follow a simple philosophy of defend, control, and counter-attack.

Of course, this is my interpretation from the videos I saw, and not having taken your classes.  I'm also just quibbling over terminology, not effectiveness.  The techniques you demonstrate are certainly effective.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 21, 2017)

skribs said:


> Based on those videos, I'd make the argument you have 5 forms, unless you routinely practice the 5 movements in sequence.



Just the one form with the video breaking it down into bit-sized segments.  Full disclosure, I didn't demonstrate the whole kata at that time as one fluid sequence because honestly I didn't have the stamina to do so.  Even making those short clips wore me completely out and in some spots I was struggling and out of breath.  But I needed to put at least something on video for the class.  It is a project I'd like to revisit now that it's years later and I've fully recovered.  That way I can put more meat and substance into the demonstration.  It would be fun to do it again with my son as, like I mentioned, he's now taller than me and quite proud of the fact 



> Of course, this is my interpretation from the videos I saw, and not having taken your classes. I'm also just quibbling over terminology, not effectiveness. The techniques you demonstrate are certainly effective.



Thank you.  Everything demonstrated has either been used by me in realworld violent altercations or one of my partners who are also active/retired L.E. or Corrections.  No fluff.  Nothing fancy.  And generally stupid-simple which is really what you need in a violent altercation.


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 25, 2017)

Oh my aching head...

I frame-by-framed my way through the Kukkiwon video for the new Bigak, one of Kukkiwon's new Competition Poomsae, which WT is apparently calling Bigak Ee Jang. This is what I came up with: 







Notwithstanding the fact that without written instructions for the poomsae, I'm doubtless introducing many errors of my own -- I think the WT's version of the poomsae is also somewhat different from this, especially on the first line of the form. 

Oh for some proper written instructions. Bigak


----------



## skribs (Nov 25, 2017)

A few questions:

1) Are they really trying to put in different forms for different age groups?  That means instructors will have to learn how many different forms to teach all the different age groups?
2) What belt level is this for, what with the 540 kicks and all?  (Aside from me, at my school we have only 2-3 people who can do a 540 roundhouse and 1 who can do 540 hook, and no student aside from me can do both)
3) How do you make that frame-by-frame?


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 25, 2017)

skribs said:


> A few questions:
> 
> 1) Are they really trying to put in different forms for different age groups?  That means instructors will have to learn how many different forms to teach all the different age groups?
> 2) What belt level is this for, what with the 540 kicks and all?  (Aside from me, at my school we have only 2-3 people who can do a 540 roundhouse and 1 who can do 540 hook, and no student aside from me can do both)
> 3) How do you make that frame-by-frame?



*1) *Yes sir, time will tell. Kukkiwon designed 10 new poomsae for competition, categorized by age group, but so far WT has apparently adopted only 3 of those poomsae, also organized by age group. We'll have to see how widely these competition poomsae actually get used in tournaments. 

In theory, if a taekwondo instructor fields a team that competes in sports poomsae, he will now have to learn at least some of those 10 new forms - the forms corresponding to the age groups in his team. 

*2)* This is for black belts only, and only for the final rounds of the competition. So in theory, only the most elite of athletes will be practicing these forms. Of course, instructors will still need to know them, in order to teach them. 

*3)* In YouTube on a PC, click on the little gear icon in the lower right-hand corner of the video, and you will be given the option of playing the video at different speeds. I play the video at 1/4 speed and hit the pause button at each move. It's very tedious, and very error-prone. I wish Kukkiwon would publish written instructions for the new poomsae -- it would make diagraming these forms MUCH easier.


----------



## skribs (Nov 25, 2017)

I know my way around YouTube.

How did you make the diagram?


----------



## skribs (Nov 26, 2017)

*



			2)
		
Click to expand...

*


> This is for black belts only, and only for the final rounds of the competition. So in theory, only the most elite of athletes will be practicing these forms. Of course, instructors will still need to know them, in order to teach them.



We have approximately 30 active black belt students at my school.  Excluding me, only one can do a 540 hook kick and none can do a 540 roundhouse (the others that can are red belts).  I can't imagine going to a tournament with my school with this as an expectation.  (Our school doesn't prioritize the acrobatic demonstration kicks as much as what's useful for sparring or self defense.  The most we're expected to do are 360 kicks).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 26, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> *3)* In YouTube on a PC, click on the little gear icon in the lower right-hand corner of the video, and you will be given the option of playing the video at different speeds. I play the video at 1/4 speed and hit the pause button at each move.


Jim, there are browser extensions that make this easier to control, put the speed controls on top of the video so you can adjust in a single click. If that would be helpful, I’ll look at the name of the Chrome extension I use when I’m back at my PC.


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Jim, there are browser extensions that make this easier to control, put the speed controls on top of the video so you can adjust in a single click. If that would be helpful, I’ll look at the name of the Chrome extension I use when I’m back at my PC.



That might be helpful, thank you!


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 26, 2017)

skribs said:


> I know my way around YouTube.
> 
> How did you make the diagram?



I use some software that I wrote using (of all things!) some CAD software called OpenSCAD. When I first started trying to make these diagrams (years ago now!) I tried a bunch of different 3D products (Daz, Strata, Blender, Unity, etc.), but I really needed something that was easily "programmatic" -- where I could define a movement once and then reuse the movement repeatedly. As crazy as it sounds, CAD software -- specially OpenSCAD -- turned out to be the easiest solution. For example in OpenSCAD you can draw a cylinder with a single command, whereas other products would require that I write a bunch of code to define a cylinder first. 

So each figurine in the diagram is made up of "bones" -- and "bones" are made up of simple cylinders and spheres. 







It takes hundreds of lines of code to define a pose-able figurine, but once I have one, I can write more code to define the basic taekwondo movements:






Then once I have the basic taekwondo movements, I can combine them to create poomsae:






From there I get a 3D diagram that I can paste into PowerPoint and mark-up, finally resulting in a diagram like this:






But at the end of the day, that entire diagram is nothing but an ungodly number of cylinders and spheres arranged with ridiculous complexity! 

This is what the beginning of Bigak looks like:

include <../Mannequin.scad>         // this defines a figurine
include <../PoomsaeDesigner.scad>   // this defines taekwondo movements 

my_fn = 32; // defines how smooth the round surfaces will be
// $vpr = [27, 0, 359.8]; $vpt = [24.809, -10.5613, 23.4784]; $vpd = 3378.83; // defines the viewplane

// BIGAK
// Across the beginning bar of the poomsae
position_grid(  0.0,  0.0) GA() { closed_stance("gold")  overlapped_hands("gold");                           } // ready
position_grid(  1.0,  0.0) DA() { left_walking_stance("gold") left_high_block("gold");                       } // 1
position_grid(  2.0,  0.0) DA() { right_front_stance("gold") right_elbow_uppercut("gold");                   } // 2
position_grid(  1.7,  0.5) DA() { right_tiger_stance("gold") right_elbow_side_strike("gold");                } // 3 
position_grid(  2.7,  0.5) DA() { left_front_stance("gold") right_punch("gold");                             } // 4
position_grid(  3.8,  0.5) DA() { RIGHT_FRONT_KICK("gold");                                                  } // 5
position_grid(  5.0,  0.5) DA() { LEFT_SIDE_KICK("gold",120);                                                } // 6
position_grid(  6.3,  0.5) DA() { RIGHT_ROUNDHOUSE_KICK("gold",120);                                         } // 7

So to diagram one of Kukkiwon's new poomsae I have to:

Take good notes while watching a YouTube video frame by frame
Scratch my noggin and make a best guess when the video is unclear
Hope that every movement in the video is one that I've already defined
But if it's not, then I have to go back to the code and define the new movement
Then figure out how to lay out all the movements in a diagram so that they'll be as clear as possible
And finally write about 50 lines of code (for a 50 step poomsae) that defines: (a) the movement, (b) what direction it's face, and (c) where it's positioned in the diagram
After that, I save the .png image, paste it into PowerPoint, and add notes. 
Voila! Simple!


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 26, 2017)

Oh, and then much later it dawned on me that since I had 3D figurines in software, I could upload the figurines to Shapeways for 3D printing. So the exact same software is used to make this stuff: Majest by Majest - Shapeways Shops


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 26, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> I use some software that I wrote using (of all things!) some CAD software called OpenSCAD. When I first started trying to make these diagrams (years ago now!) I tried a bunch of different 3D products (Daz, Strata, Blender, Unity, etc.), but I really needed something that was easily "programmatic" -- where I could define a movement once and then reuse the movement repeatedly. As crazy as it sounds, CAD software -- specially OpenSCAD -- turned out to be the easiest solution. For example in OpenSCAD you can draw a cylinder with a single command, whereas other products would require that I write a bunch of code to define a cylinder first.
> 
> So each figurine in the diagram is made up of "bones" -- and "bones" are made up of simple cylinders and spheres.
> 
> ...


A lot of work, Jim. Impressive.


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A lot of work, Jim. Impressive.



Thank you sir! I was out for 6 months with an ankle injury after an ill-conceived back-hook-kick (I'm not a very talented taekwondoin!) so I had to do something to keep me busy. ;-)


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 27, 2017)

By the way, these diagrams can also make nice "posters" for schools. In software I took the 8 taegeuk diagrams plus koryo and laid them out in a 3x3 grid and then uploaded that massive diagram to a local printshop to make a huge poster that we hung on our school wall. It looks nice I think.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> Thank you sir! I was out for 6 months with an ankle injury after an ill-conceived back-hook-kick (I'm not a very talented taekwondoin!) so I had to do something to keep me busy. ;-)


Next time you injure yourself, I’ll teach you my NGA kata, so you have something to while away the time. You know, I like to help people out.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> That might be helpful, thank you!


It's HTML5 Video Speed Control. It works in YouTube and anywhere else you have HTML5 videos (most of them I've run into). In some cases (like on MT), it works but is unusable, because the speed controls are right under the title link YouTube adds to embedded videos, so I have to watch those on YouTube in order to control the speed. It's nice to be able to ramp the speed up during long intro's and then slow back down when something interesting starts.


----------



## WaterGal (Nov 27, 2017)

skribs said:


> We have approximately 30 active black belt students at my school.  Excluding me, only one can do a 540 hook kick and none can do a 540 roundhouse (the others that can are red belts).  I can't imagine going to a tournament with my school with this as an expectation.  (Our school doesn't prioritize the acrobatic demonstration kicks as much as what's useful for sparring or self defense.  The most we're expected to do are 360 kicks).



Do you have a lot of your black belts going to USAT Nationals to compete in poomsae?


----------



## skribs (Nov 28, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> Do you have a lot of your black belts going to USAT Nationals to compete in poomsae?



No, but the only tournament remotely close to our school has a tendency to do "world class" stuff at the expense of traditional competition.  This has led to judges who don't understand traditional poomsae to sparring rules that resulted in a LOT of facial injuries this year. 

I could just imagine them requiring this next year.


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 28, 2017)

skribs said:


> No, but the only tournament remotely close to our school has a tendency to do "world class" stuff at the expense of traditional competition.  This has led to judges who don't understand traditional poomsae...



I've witnessed this as well. Generally you also can't convince those judges that anything other than the Sports Poomsae style is what should be judged at a tournament. As previously mentioned, my favorite example of this is a Low Cross Block which in Sports Poomsae in the U.S. is interpreted as an Augmented Low Block, which completely changes the hand and arms positions. (I.e., rather than both fists facing each other, the lower arm is turned outward like a Low Block, and the whole movement is performed over the lead leg rather than at the center of the body.)


----------



## andyjeffries (Nov 29, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> I've witnessed this as well. Generally you also can't convince those judges that anything other than the Sports Poomsae style is what should be judged at a tournament. As previously mentioned, my favorite example of this is a Low Cross Block which in Sports Poomsae in the U.S. is interpreted as an Augmented Low Block, which completely changes the hand and arms positions. (I.e., rather than both fists facing each other, the lower arm is turned outward like a Low Block, and the whole movement is performed over the lead leg rather than at the center of the body.)



For me whether it's seen as a Low Cross Block or an Augmented Low Block depends more on the starting position than the final position (a fist at each waist versus a little hinge). From the earliest Kukkiwon official poomsae DVDs this has always started at the little hinge position. This is also the way it was taught on the 2013 Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course (Korea), 2015 Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner Course (Austria) and 2016 Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course (Korea).

The block stops around the centre because that's most natural (both arms equally extended body facing forwards, rather than slightly off centre). I haven't seen it stop over the lead leg in competition. For example Master Kang Suji (one of the best in the world) does it centrally (although she moves QUICK)






I've also looked for the hand position of the lower arm and haven't seen that done incorrectly either (backs of the fists facing each other is correct).

There are a number of inconsistencies in poomsae, but for me this has always been one of those "some dojangs do it incorrectly as a low cross block, but it's technically an augmented/reinforced low block with a strange blocking surface".


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 29, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> The block stops around the centre because that's most natural (both arms equally extended body facing forwards, rather than slightly off centre). I haven't seen it stop over the lead leg in competition.



Not disagreeing with any of this. A USAT referee explained to me and others about 6 months ago that currently in the U.S. the judges want to see the Low Block arm over the lead leg (as with a conventional Low Block), and the Outer Forearm of the blocking arm as the blocking surface (as with a conventional Low Block). But the referee also said that this interpretation varies from country to country, and from year to year. Apparently, it depends on the interpretation of whoever is the current national referee chairman. 

To Skribs' original point, 99.9% of students in the U.S. will perform the movement as you described it (centered on the body, with the back of the forearm as the blocking surface) meaning that the student will likely suffer a deduction at any event where the judges are USAT-trained, even if the event is not a World Class Poomsae event. 

I like the distinction that you make between how the two blocks are chambered. One of the people who was also in the room with me and that USAT referee 6 months ago later whispered to me, "Does that mean that a High Cross Block that chambers with a hinge is actually an Augmented High Block?"


----------



## andyjeffries (Nov 29, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> I like the distinction that you make between how the two blocks are chambered. One of the people who was also in the room with me and that USAT referee 6 months ago later whispered to me, "Does that mean that a High Cross Block that chambers with a hinge is actually an Augmented High Block?"



The movement in Taegeuk 7 (augmented/reinforced low block) is described in GM Kang Ik Pil's book as 엇걸어 아래막기 (Eotgeoro araemakki) which means a crossing/intersecting low block. And the high version in Ilyeo is described as 엇걸어 얼굴막기 (Eotgeoro eolgulmakki) which is the same thing with face block, so I guess it would be called an augmented high block technically.

However, I haven't actually seen the Korean for a "cross block" as the technique as we used to do it as decades ago (hands at either side of the body, going to a X shape), so I don't know if this is a change in the way a "cross block" is done or a different technique (which people have just always done incorrectly as a cross block).


----------



## skribs (Nov 29, 2017)

We don't have the word "augmented" in our curriculum.  That doesn't mean we don't have the block, but we usually just call any block using two hands a double block (i.e. "double low block") and use the fact that the students can see us performing the technique as the way for them to differentiate between various "double" blocks (for example, double low block being both hands down to the side, vs. double low as both hands crossed in front of you).  

With a low cross block, we use it as a block to protect our groin, over the centerline, so probably all of our students would get minus points on this type of block.

Of course, we use Palgwe forms, and older versions of the Palgwe forms at that.  Our curriculum hasn't really updated with the Kukkiwon one.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 29, 2017)

A question related to the topic (if only slightly): when did the Kukkiwon switch from using Palgwe forms?


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A question related to the topic (if only slightly): when did the Kukkiwon switch from using Palgwe forms?



Around 1971. Taegeuk Poomsae

"In 1965 the Korea Taekwondo Association appointed a committee of representatives from six of the Nine Kwans to develop the forms for what is now called Kukkiwon- or WT-style taekwondo. The committee consisted of:

Young Sup Lee of the Song Moo Kwan
Kyo Yoon Lee of the Han Moo Kwan
Hae Man Park of the Chung Do Kwan
Jong Myun Hyun of the Oh Do Kwan
Soon Bae Kim of the Chang Moo Kwan
In 1967, this committee introduced the Palgwe and Yudanja (Black Belt) forms (including a simpler version of Koryo). In 1971 two additional kwans joined the committee:

Chong Woo Lee of Jidokwan
Young Ki Bae also of Jidokwan
Young Tae Han of Moo Duk Kwan
This expanded committee went on to develop the Taegeuk forms."


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 29, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> The movement in Taegeuk 7 (augmented/reinforced low block) is described in GM Kang Ik Pil's book as 엇걸어 아래막기 (Eotgeoro araemakki) which means a crossing/intersecting low block.



Yes sir! Would you believe I had just checked GM Kang's text shortly before reading this!  

GM Lee Kyu Hung & GM Sang H. Kim's text "Complete Taekwondo Poomsae" refers to this same movement as "Low Section Cross Block". For some reason GM Kim chose the term "Low Section Cross Block" for that text.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 29, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> Around 1971. Taegeuk Poomsae
> 
> "In 1965 the Korea Taekwondo Association appointed a committee of representatives from six of the Nine Kwans to develop the forms for what is now called Kukkiwon- or WT-style taekwondo. The committee consisted of:
> 
> ...


Interesting. If I recall correctly, the school my brother attends converted from Palgwe to Taegeuk about 8 years ago. I'm assuming they must have changed affiliation at the time or some such.


----------



## WaterGal (Nov 30, 2017)

skribs said:


> No, but the only tournament remotely close to our school has a tendency to do "world class" stuff at the expense of traditional competition.  This has led to judges who don't understand traditional poomsae to sparring rules that resulted in a LOT of facial injuries this year.
> 
> I could just imagine them requiring this next year.



It's possible, but I doubt they'll scrap traditional poomsae entirely - they'd lose a TON of competitors if they did that.  One of the local tournaments we go to started offering Sport Poomsae as an event this year (for black belts only), but they still offered Traditional Poomsae for students who wanted to do that. I didn't go to that one, so I'm not sure how the numbers broke down, but none of our students were all that excited about the idea of finding out what forms they would do the day before the tournament.


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 30, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> It's possible, but I doubt they'll scrap traditional poomsae entirely - they'd lose a TON of competitors if they did that...



I don't think the concern is the _scrapping_ of traditional poomsae events, so much as the fact that USAT-trained (or influenced) judges might be judging some of the traditional events, and so might be inclined to apply USAT-style criteria.


----------



## skribs (Nov 30, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> It's possible, but I doubt they'll scrap traditional poomsae entirely - they'd lose a TON of competitors if they did that.  One of the local tournaments we go to started offering Sport Poomsae as an event this year (for black belts only), but they still offered Traditional Poomsae for students who wanted to do that. I didn't go to that one, so I'm not sure how the numbers broke down, but none of our students were all that excited about the idea of finding out what forms they would do the day before the tournament.



The problem is that the tournament I'm speaking of has younger folk judging the traditional poomsae, who really didn't understand traditional poomsae.  By doing something other than what the judges know, in this case, leads to lower scores.  They may not understand the slower pace or some of the techniques.  So you end up shooting yourself in the foot by doing forms they don't know.


----------



## tubby (Nov 30, 2017)

so its two weeks since the announcement, has anyone seen any videos of these new poomsae yet?


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 30, 2017)

tubby said:


> so its two weeks since the announcement, has anyone seen any videos of these new poomsae yet?



*crickets*


----------



## WaterGal (Dec 2, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> I don't think the concern is the _scrapping_ of traditional poomsae events, so much as the fact that USAT-trained (or influenced) judges might be judging some of the traditional events, and so might be inclined to apply USAT-style criteria.



It sounded to me like his concern was that his competitors would go to a tournament, compete in a Sport Poomsae event, and be told to perform one of the new competition forms in the final round, which they might not physically be able to do because of the technical difficulty of the form.


----------



## skribs (Dec 2, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> It sounded to me like his concern was that his competitors would go to a tournament, compete in a Sport Poomsae event, and be told to perform one of the new competition forms in the final round, which they might not physically be able to do because of the technical difficulty of the form.



This is my concern.  That my fellow students (I say "fellow students" because half the black belts at my school are same rank as me - 2nd Dan) will go to a tournament, perform Koryo and Keumgang, and then in the final round get told to do this form, which we would need to teach several of the specific techniques for them to do the form.

I myself am only proficient in 540 kicks turning to my left shoulder (so right leg 540 round, left leg 540 hook).


----------



## TrueJim (Dec 2, 2017)




----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2017)

I'm going to go on record here as saying that any form that requires a 540 kick is no longer TKD. It's gymnastics. Any kick with more than a 360 degree turn is gymnastics rather than martial. Gymnastics are fine. But they're not martial arts.
And no, I do not care if the Kukkiwon endorses said form. The KKW demonstration teams have, for years, engaged in gymnastics. While these acrobatics certainly display athleticism and skill, that skill is not in martial arts.


----------



## skribs (Dec 2, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm going to go on record here as saying that any form that requires a 540 kick is no longer TKD. It's gymnastics. Any kick with more than a 360 degree turn is gymnastics rather than martial. Gymnastics are fine. But they're not martial arts.
> And no, I do not care if the Kukkiwon endorses said form. The KKW demonstration teams have, for years, engaged in gymnastics. While these acrobatics certainly display athleticism and skill, that skill is not in martial arts.



I am going to disagree.  I believe that the gymnastics and the high-energy demonstrations that don't have a practical martial application, do fit the "art" category of the term "martial arts".  

However, I have absolutely no qualms with someone who says "that stuff has no practical application, so it's not worth it for me to learn it."


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 3, 2017)

skribs said:


> I am going to disagree.  I believe that the gymnastics and the high-energy demonstrations that don't have a practical martial application, do fit the "art" category of the term "martial arts".
> 
> However, I have absolutely no qualms with someone who says "that stuff has no practical application, so it's not worth it for me to learn it."


While I don’t ascribe to that use of the word “art”, I will say I don’t know how to draw a hard line between what is and is not MA. I’ve drawn that line in different places throughout my life, and none have been durable. I find it easier (though still not entirely black and white) to focus on practical application, as you posted.


----------



## skribs (Dec 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> While I don’t ascribe to that use of the word “art”, I will say I don’t know how to draw a hard line between what is and is not MA. I’ve drawn that line in different places throughout my life, and none have been durable. I find it easier (though still not entirely black and white) to focus on practical application, as you posted.



In our Taekwondo classes, we have people who love doing the forms, not for their martial application but because they enjoy the forms.  We have people who like trying the useless acrobatics.  We have people who go for fitness.  We have some people who go simply for mental fitness or psychological fitness.  We have some who are obsessed with the sport applications of Taekwondo.  Kids in our classes learn respect and discipline (and a few adults as well).  I also enjoy the community my school has and I have a lot of friends there.  We have some that are purely there for self defense.  There's a LOT of different reasons you can take Taekwondo, or things you can get out of it.

For me, self defense and the practical application is probably 6th.  Psychological fitness, physical fitness, the community, the gymnastics, and learning to assert myself and have confidence in myself are the top 5 things I feel I get out of Taekwondo.  It doesn't always have to be about the self defense martial situations.


----------



## TrueJim (Dec 3, 2017)

" According to the National Sporting Goods Association, 73.0% of those who practice martial arts do it so solely for physical fitness."

Martial Arts Clubs Industry Snap Shot - 2016 - Sports Club Advisors, Inc.


----------



## WaterGal (Dec 5, 2017)

skribs said:


> This is my concern.  That my fellow students (I say "fellow students" because half the black belts at my school are same rank as me - 2nd Dan) will go to a tournament, perform Koryo and Keumgang, and then in the final round get told to do this form, which we would need to teach several of the specific techniques for them to do the form.
> 
> I myself am only proficient in 540 kicks turning to my left shoulder (so right leg 540 round, left leg 540 hook).



That's a valid concern - if your students are competing in Sport Poomsae events, and WT makes this change, and that filters down from WT to USAT to the local circuit, they may expect that.  For poomsae, your students may have to stick to just doing Traditional instead of Sport events. I know that a lot of our students would be in the same boat, if that happened. (ETA: though none of our students compete in Sport Poomsae anyway! Most of the local tournaments here don't even offer it, and our guys haven't been interested, so far.)


----------



## skribs (Dec 5, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> That's a valid concern - if your students are competing in Sport Poomsae events, and WT makes this change, and that filters down from WT to USAT to the local circuit, they may expect that.  For poomsae, your students may have to stick to just doing Traditional instead of Sport events. I know that a lot of our students would be in the same boat, if that happened. (ETA: though none of our students compete in Sport Poomsae anyway! Most of the local tournaments here don't even offer it, and our guys haven't been interested, so far.)



What if the tournament doesn't offer traditional poomsae?


----------



## TrueJim (Dec 5, 2017)

skribs said:


> What if the tournament doesn't offer traditional poomsae?



Realistically, I don't think there's any possibility of that happening. To host a tournament, the sponsoring school has to pay for:

Rental of a facility (around here a typical Community College gymnasium goes for about $10K per day, when you take into account all the extra fees that they add on).
Rental of the mats, computers, PA system, and other equipment.
Stipends for the referees (which can include lodging if they're coming from far away)
Stipends for the First Aid crew (usually some local EMTs looking to pick up a few extra bucks)
Usually food & drinks for the VIPs (the various kwan jang nims and local government officials).
You can get up well into the 10s of $Ks pretty quickly in terms of costs. 

Then let's say your typical athlete is paying $100 for the tournament. (Around here, typically around $80 for the athlete for one event + about $10 for each parents's tickets). 

Bottom line, you need hundreds of athletes to break-even. For example if you spent $40K on the tournament, you're gonna need at least 400 athletes at your tournament. 

By headcount, the most popular events at tournaments are little-kid-sparring and little-kid-poomsae. Those events are the bread-and-butter that pays for the prestige events such as World Class Poomsae and World Class Sparring.

A tournament that didn't offer traditional poomsae events wouldn't break even -- it'd go broke.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 9, 2017)

skribs said:


> In our Taekwondo classes, we have people who love doing the forms, not for their martial application but because they enjoy the forms.  We have people who like trying the useless acrobatics.  We have people who go for fitness.  We have some people who go simply for mental fitness or psychological fitness.  We have some who are obsessed with the sport applications of Taekwondo.  Kids in our classes learn respect and discipline (and a few adults as well).  I also enjoy the community my school has and I have a lot of friends there.  We have some that are purely there for self defense.  There's a LOT of different reasons you can take Taekwondo, or things you can get out of it.
> 
> For me, self defense and the practical application is probably 6th.  Psychological fitness, physical fitness, the community, the gymnastics, and learning to assert myself and have confidence in myself are the top 5 things I feel I get out of Taekwondo.  It doesn't always have to be about the self defense martial situations.


Sometimes, even things with a specific application are enjoyable for a different reason. I created a set of simple kata, specifically to help students practice flowing from one technique to another (transitions) and to help them memorize the technique sets to save time during practice. Some of them just really enjoy doing the kata, just for the feel of the movement. I'm actually one of those. As I learn them better (I just introduced them this year), they get more enjoyable to use just as a way to get moving.


----------



## skribs (Dec 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Sometimes, even things with a specific application are enjoyable for a different reason. I created a set of simple kata, specifically to help students practice flowing from one technique to another (transitions) and to help them memorize the technique sets to save time during practice. Some of them just really enjoy doing the kata, just for the feel of the movement. I'm actually one of those. As I learn them better (I just introduced them this year), they get more enjoyable to use just as a way to get moving.



Well, I hope you would enjoy your own creation


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 9, 2017)

skribs said:


> Well, I hope you would enjoy your own creation


I am actually surprised by it, Skribs. I've never done much kata work in the past, and didn't really expect to find them fun. I enjoyed creating them (the experimentation and discovery phase is always fun), but expected them to bore me.


----------



## TrueJim (Dec 18, 2017)

An anonymous user posted this to the taekwondo wiki this morning: 

"The latest information we got this weekend from the WT vice president is that at the 2018 world championships competitors will be able to choose for the traditional (taegeuk, poomsae koryo - poomsae hansu) or modern (bee-gak 1-3) forms. Starting 2019 the modern forms will be compulsory."

I haven't yet seen other references to this.


----------



## TrueJim (Dec 31, 2017)

Getting back to the topic of the Kukkiwon's *Competition* *Poomsae* (as opposed to the new _Old People Poomsae_, that apparently nobody has seen yet)...

Since I had some free time this weekend (finally!) I took a crack at diagramming Nareusya (also called Bigak Sam Jang by WT). As mentioned, this is based on frame-by-frame watching of the videos, which is a very error-prone process. I wish we had some written instructions for these new forms. If you find mistakes, let me know and I'll adjust. 

This form intended for age 18-30. I still don't know what WT plans to use as their "Bigak Il Jang".

Nareusya


----------



## Archtkd (Jan 9, 2018)

TrueJim said:


> An anonymous user posted this to the taekwondo wiki this morning:
> 
> "The latest information we got this weekend from the WT vice president is that at the 2018 world championships competitors will be able to choose for the traditional (taegeuk, poomsae koryo - poomsae hansu) or modern (bee-gak 1-3) forms. Starting 2019 the modern forms will be compulsory."
> 
> I haven't yet seen other references to this.



Thought you might find this discussion with the U.S Poomsae National Team Coach
very interesting:


----------



## TrueJim (Jan 9, 2018)

Archtkd said:


> Thought you might find this discussion with the U.S Poomsae National Team Coach
> very interesting:



Thank you! I had seen this before. It's excellent, and informed my own thinking quite a lot.

On a side note, I had high hopes that Iron Wood Productions (Ashley Davis & Jake Tran) would continue to churn out a lot of good "taekwondo news" videos.  We haven't heard much from them lately though.  I think the turning point was when they opted to attend the 2017 Martial Arts SuperShow rather than the 2017 Taekwondo National Championships. To me, covering products is less interesting than covering athletes & coaches.


----------

