# Is there a distinction between the "Agricultural Bolo" and the "Fighting Bolo"?



## Cruentus

I have done some independent research on the Bolo from the Philippines. Professor Presas gave me one in 95. He said it was his family design. Naturally, this caused me to become very interested in the applications of the tool. I got some pieces from Professor, and I have done my own historical research. Now, Master at Arms Bram Frank has an instructional Bolo DVD set out. To date, I have not seen this video. However, I am writing this to collaborate with what has been said so far regarding the differences between the Agricultural Bolo and the Fighting Bolo. What I have found is that both historically speaking and technically speaking, the tools are different. I have also found that Modern Arnis contains martial applications that distinctly fit with applying the Fighting Bolo.

#1. Physical Applications: I was able to piece together what from my knowledge of Modern Arnis, and what I was told, some of the blade applications of the art. I dont claim expertise on the Presas family style, the original bolo fighting style from Remys uncle and grandfather, but I will say that I know enough bits and pieces to have an informed opinion. How informedwell, ask me in person then you can decide. Anyways, it sounds like, by description of Brams DVD's alone, and by some of what Bram and others have said online, that the Bolo DVDs will probably be right on par with Modern Arnis/Presas family style applications of the Bolo. When I see it for myself, Ill let you know more.

#2. Historical references: There are clear historical references that also back up what Bram is saying about the Presas Jungle fighting Bolo. Nowdont get too caught up in the semantics of Jungle fighting Bolo. This seems to be Brams name for the tool rather then a historical reference. I am almost certain that in the Filipino languages, linguistically the distinction between one bolo to the next is not made.  However, there are clear distinctions between the agricultural bolo, or machete that was used to navigate through the jungle, and a bolo that was used for fighting. These distinctions are in design and application, rather then by language.

A Machete, or agricultural Bolo, was used for cutting down foliage. Therefore, the blade was more top heavy and the tip was rounded. It was top heavy so that you could use your momentum to swing the tool, saving your arms from tiring in a days work. The tip was rounded to prevent breakage if you hit a tree, or something with a bit of resilience. You can see in pictures of old Machetes in the Americas, and bolos in the PI, and read about their history to get an idea on their design. A trip to the library will give you some more reliable references, but here is some info online

http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/

This is particularly important, taken from the link above:

The machete as used in the jungles of America is entirely distinct in its method of wielding from the edged weapons of Europe, swords, cutlasses, and sabers, which are held with the whole hand and all the fingers in what may be called the thrusting grip or the hammer grip depending on whether the wrist is dropped or not, so that the line of the weapon is either at right angles or in line with the axis of the lower arm. The machete is, instead, held loosely between the thumb and first finger and allowed to pivot in the hand through a large arc, thus slicing its way through the soft, herbaceous vegetation common in the American tropics and that of the Pacific Islands. Deep in the tropical jungles of the Amazon basin, the machete is the only modern implement found in the camps of otherwise Stone Age Indio cultures.
Compare the machete with the native tools of jungly South East Asia, and the Indonesian archipelago, where the tool-weapons such as the parang, the golok, bolo, and barong are wielded with a full hand-chopping grip which is needed to cut through the woody vegetation of that area. The nortemericano and his European ancestors used axes instead of one-handed tools for heavy cutting.



Now, notice the look of the machete and agricultural Bolos, as they are distinctly different then these Bolos here:



http://pt-go.com/popup.asp?ImagePath=images/Legacy3.jpg

What is the difference? Well, first of all, the fighting bolo has a completely different tip then the agricultural bolo. It comes to a sharp, almost clip, point. This is designed for thrusting, and back-cut applications, recognizable in its most basic sense from Modern Arnis angle 6-7 and 10-11. Another difference is that the fighting bolo is not top-heavy. This is not as well fitted for heavy fieldwork and agricultural chopping, but is very well fitted for fighting and maneuvering against an opponent. Another difference is that the back of the blade (and sides, for that matter) is resilient and hard, designed for absorbing strikes and blocking/deflecting another blade. This is very much unlike the agricultural tools. The last very noticeable difference is the hilt. The agricultural tools do not have a hilt designed for protecting the hand against another blade, while the fighting tools do.

So, it is clear that the agricultural bolo and the fighting bolo are distinctly different, and have distinctly different purposes. You can see in the Modern Arnis pink book pictures of the bolo battalions, and the bolos that they carry, and you can clearly see that their bolos are NOT the agricultural tools, but rather are the tools designed for fighting that you see in the above picture. 

For more info on Filipino scouts, check here: http://www.philippine-scouts.org/History/Photos/american_historical.html I linked this page specifically because you can see that many of the men carried the fighting bolos, although it is often hard to see the detail.

* Where might the difference between the PI fighting Bolo, and the agricultural bolos come from? Sit back.my theory * 

Note a picture of the Filipino Fighting Bolos close up:

http://www.gunting-museum.com/CSSD-SC_Weapons/Bolo_Set/bolo_set.html

Nowlook at the similarities between the Bolo and the Spanish Saber:

http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy424.html

Now look at the similarities between the famed Bowie knife and the Bolo. The theory is that the bowie knife design was based off the saber, but modified for field use. Go half way down this page: 

http://users.aristotle.net/~russjohn/bowie.html

The main difference between the Spanish Saber and the Bowie is that the Saber is clearly used for sword dueling, and the bowie is clearly used for field use, but could be used for defense, and saber fighting techniques could apply to the bowie. Nowif you look at the similarities between the Bolo and the Saber, one can see that it is not far fetched that the fighting bolo was an agricultural bolo modified for fighting based off the Spanish saber. The main similarity that you can find is with the tip; that clip point designed for thrusting and ripping into the opponent. 

A short while ago, a member of my group came by with a Bagwell Bowie knife. He had done some western martial arts and Bowie fighting seminars. The similarities between what he learned from the western methods and what I knew from the Presas Bolo/Modern Arnis methods are too similar to not be tied together somehow. Things such as tip control, defanging the snake, angles of attack, and other applications are very similar, at least conceptually to similar for it to be a mere coincidence, in my professional opinion. If you do Modern Arnis, look here and see if you can find the similarities, and think especially of the traditionals, angle of attacking methods, as well as the #5 and #12 umbrella blocks. Ohand remember to think conceptually:

http://ahfaa.org/saber.htm

Now, to clear the air here, I am certain that the Philippines have their own cultural martial arts that make them unique. Major differences can be seen in Filipino arts from Western Arts. However, so can major similarities, and these similarities are so different that it seems impossible that they would be mere coincidences. I think that to say that the Spanish fighting methods did NOT influence the Filipino methods after hundreds of years of conflict and occupation would be a bit hasty, in my opinion. I believe that both cultures influenced each other. Some evidence to this is in the methods and design of the fighting bolo.

* Conclusions *

There are many things one can conclude from this short essay. Perhaps the fighting Bolo was influenced from the Spanish Saber. Perhaps, far down the cultural line, Spanish fencing played a role in the development of the Presas Bolo style. Perhaps, these are only theories. However, the one thing that is for sure is that the Agricultural Bolo and the Fighting Bolo clearly are different tools, with different designs, made for different uses. Would it be far fetched to believe that somewhere in Modern Arnis these uses could be found? I think that it would be far fetched to say for sure that they couldnt.


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## Cruentus

To further support what I am saying...here are some agricultural Bolo's from the pacific asia...notice again the distinct differences that I discussed from the "fighting bolo's":

http://www.ralphmartindale.co.uk/ralphmartindale/asia1.html

Thanks,

PAUL  :ninja:


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## Tgace

*Is there a distinction between the "Agricultural Bolo" and the "Fighting Bolo"?*

Ummm..one is used for farming and the other is used for fighting???


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## dearnis.com

Yeah....
What he said!


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## Ceicei

Never knew what a bolo was until I read your article.  Very interesting.  Thank you.

- Ceicei


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## Dieter

Hi Paul,

interesting text. But regarding the fighting and agricultural bolos in the Philippines - yes and no.

I have rummaged in my store room, where I have my old things that I got sometimes from the Philippines and elswhere, and I found a few bolos.

See the picture here. 






A is the Presas bolo from Bram. I cannot guarantee for the right size compared to the pictures of my Bolos, but I have tried to give it the size, that I felt it was when I held it in comparison. Perhaps someone can give me the exact lengh, then I can adapt it.

Anyway, B is a Bolo that I bought in 1983 on a market at a "hardwarestore" where they sold knives, bolos and Machetes, somewhere in a Province in the Philippines, I think it was in Legazpi (South-eastern Luzon). It is clearly an "agricultural bolo", not by description, but simply, because all farmers in that area wore a bolo like that. A farming tool.

Bolos C and D I got from Dionisio Canete around 1988. They only differ in size. I cannot imagine, that the Canetes sell agricultural Bolos. But, I don´t know, I have never heared this distinction in the Philippines.

I have hjust added another bolo - E - the Inayan bolo, used by Mike Inay. Easy to see, that it is almost the same as the Presas bolo: a "fighting bolo".

The stick is only fore size comparison.


Anyway, let us compare these Bolos to what Paul wrote:

B has clearly a very similar shape as the Presas Bolo, it has a small tip and is in addition very light. From this facts, it is a fighting bolo. But it does not have a hilt, which makes it an agricultural Bolo. It came with a very light wooden sheath, which was tied with a thin cord around the waist.

C and D have clearly a roundet tip and they are very heavy at the head, which would classify them as agricultural bolos. But they do have a hilt, what would make them a fighting bolo. The came in a heavy leather sheath.
In addition the were sold by the Canetes, a famous Eskrima group in Cebu, which would make it for a normal customer a fighting bolo per se. No one would assume that a stick and swordfighting club would sell agricultural tools. 


This cannot be a generalisation, because I only have a few bolos, but as a conclusion I would say, that Paul is theoretically right and the Presas bolo has all the attributes that a "fighting bolo" needs, but that today nobody really cares about these features and the blacksmiths make what they like or the shape the customers order.

But this is only a supposition.


Regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel 
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## arnisandyz

Interesting points. I would just like to add that not ALL "agricultural" bolos are tip heavy.  Some do have more of a point, perhaps used for killing pigs, or other tasks.


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## arnisandyz

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Interesting points. I would just like to add that not ALL "agricultural" bolos are tip heavy.  Some do have more of a point, perhaps used for killing pigs, or other tasks.



I've never heard the terms used to explain the difference between the two as "agricultural" or "fighting" but rather "tusok" (thrusting) or "tabak" (cutting/chopping).   As far as what came first, chicken or the egg? I would guess the tusok was better suited for combat, thus adapted for fighting over the tabak, even though you still see tabak style in combat. meaning to say, I think these styles of bolos were already around and a special style wasn't created just for fighting until the fighters started requesting bladesmiths for modifications.  Keep in mind, predating the bolo were kampilan, barong, pinuti, gununting all considered fighting blades over the bolo.


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## loki09789

RP's father was a PI commisioned officer working with US forces, the "Family design" could be something that his father standardized for his PI soldiers as a general issue item during operations.  Or, RP's Grandfather was an old guerilla warhorse in his own right according to myth, perhaps the family design was again a pattern design that was mass produced for resistance fighters back in his day and survived as a point of pride.

Isn't the RP family design also known as a Negrito Bolo?


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## Cruentus

Dieter,

Nice pics, and thanks for the input.

Nothing you've linked actually contradicts what I said, though.

The fighting bolo's generally have a "clip point." the Presas bolo has a much less drastic clip point then the Canete's bolo. In fact, the clip on the Presas Bolo is very suttle, but you can see it if you have the sheath off better. The Canete's bolo looks a bit more top heavy (which makes sense given there fighting style) and therefore the clip point is more drastic. The Inayan Bolo looks like it may have a clip point...but barely.... it is hard to tell with his knife, as it looks like if there is a clip then it is even more suttle then the Presas bolo.

As to the agricultural tool, it does not have a clip point, but a drop point; and as you said, no hilt designed to protect the hand. Now, as arnisandyz mentioned, this could have been used for slaughtering animals, or other such tasks that might need a point. It doesn't look designed for cutting folige, as the machete's I linked were designed for.

Now, as with anything, there are no "absolutes" with this. I am sure you could find someone working with a blade designed for combat, and I am sure you can fight with a blade designed for field work. I am sure that there are different designs that people get and use today regardless of what the original purpose of the design was. However, one thing is true, is that the 2 types of blade tips that were originally specifically designed for fighting rather then field work are the "Tanto" tip, designed from Japanese swords, and the "Clip point" designed from the European/Spanish swords. You will find that your Filipino fighting blades, very much like the Bowie knife, utilize the clip point.

PAUL


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## arnisandyz

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Dieter,
> 
> You will find that your Filipino fighting blades, very much like the Bowie knife, utilize the clip point.
> 
> PAUL



Hey Paul, 

Is the Presas Bolo sharpened on the back of the clip point blade? Its hard to tell from the pictures.

Thanks

Andy


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## Dieter

Hi Paul,

what is a clip point? Do you mean that the tip points upwards?

Here a picture of Das Inosantos book "Filipino Martial Arts". It






It shows the fighting bolo of WW2 without hilt and I think, it is exactly the same as my B, the "agricultural bolo". So according to that, no clip point, whatever that is. 

I think the tusok (thrusting) and tabak (cutting) differenciation makes more sense that "fighting" and "agricultural".
In a fight it does make sense, to cut someones arm off as well as stabbing into the heart.

But I think it is an academic discussion anyway. Use each blade according to their function, no matter if "agricultural" or "fighting"

I will write to the Philippines and ask the Modern Arnis Masters there.


Regards

Dieter


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## arnisandyz

Dieter said:
			
		

> what is a clip point?
> 
> quick search on the web...
> 
> - The Clip Point
> A great all-around format and one of the most popular, it's used on everything from the famous Buck 110 folder, to the Randall #1 fighter, to most bowies. The format has a concave or straight cut-out at the tip (the "clip"). This makes the point sharper, and also lowers it for more control. Clip point blades usually also provide plenty of belly.
> 
> The tip is controllable and sharp, and the belly provides good slicing/slashing, and so this format is popular on formats from utility knives to camp knives to fighters to hunting knives.
> 
> - The Drop Point
> Another great all-around format, this pattern is used on many knives but is most popular on hunters. The tip is lowered (dropped) via a convex arc from the spine. This lowers the point for great controllability. The point retains great strength. Most drop point patterns also retain plenty of belly.
> 
> Due to the very controllable point, this pattern is very popular on hunting knives, where it's important to keep the point from nicking an organ. The inclusion of plenty of belly makes it a good slicer and slasher. This format is also popular on utility knives and even fighters, where the strong point can hold up to heavy use. The point on a drop point usually won't be quite as sharp as that on a clip-point, but will be stronger.


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## arnisandyz

Notice the overlap? Clip Points can also be used as utility/camp knives and Drop points can also be used as fighters.


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## Cruentus

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I've never heard the terms used to explain the difference between the two as "agricultural" or "fighting" but rather "tusok" (thrusting) or "tabak" (cutting/chopping).   As far as what came first, chicken or the egg? I would guess the tusok was better suited for combat, thus adapted for fighting over the tabak, even though you still see tabak style in combat. meaning to say, I think these styles of bolos were already around and a special style wasn't created just for fighting until the fighters started requesting bladesmiths for modifications.  Keep in mind, predating the bolo were kampilan, barong, pinuti, gununting all considered fighting blades over the bolo.



As I also mentioned... there probably aren't linguistic differences between the two. It would make more sense that the tools would be linguistically seperated by purpose (Tusok or tabak) rather then "fighting" or "not fighting."

And, thinking of the different PI blades you mentioned...

Kampilan: Resembles the arabic scimitar. THis would make sense, as it was donned by seafaring Moro's.
Barong: Doesn't resemble anything I could find in history...design seems completely native to the PI/islander peoples.
Pinuti: Isn't this basically a Bolo, but Visiyan? Interestingly the one they sell at Kris cutlery is a "1800's design" and resemblesa fighting bolo.
Gununting: Hmmm...resembles some arabic blades as well, but not sure.

The reason I am thinking of these, is because you mention that they predate the bolo, and were used as fighting tools. I am not in disagreement with you (except I thought pinuti was just a visiyan bolo), but I find it difficult to get history on these...especially exact dates. I was wondering if you had any good resources for me.

PAUL


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## loki09789

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Notice the overlap? Clip Points can also be used as utility/camp knives and Drop points can also be used as fighters.


The heavy point/clip point bolo is more conducive to chopping motions with lots of swing room and for large jobs.  

The thinner drop point or even upturned thrusting point bolo is more conducive to slicing motions and tight space work on smaller objects.

I would imagine that the RP/Negrito bolo was more functional in the jungle environment/small produce farming demands. It would also be a good tool for the Ocho Ocho style of RP's Grandfather because of the medio/corto cutting pattern of continuous slicing/redirecting.


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## Cruentus

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Hey Paul,
> 
> Is the Presas Bolo sharpened on the back of the clip point blade? Its hard to tell from the pictures.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Andy



No...at least mine is not sharpened on the back of the clip!  :uhyeah:  However, I found through target practice and "bit's and pieces" that because of the suttle clip, you can still deliver a nasty backcut/stab.

 :asian:


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## Dieter

OK, I think I got it. Do you mean a little sharp edge on the tip/back of the blade? 

If yes, blade B has not got that, ans I am not sure about the Presas bolo or the Inayan bolo either.

Regards


Dieter


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## arnisandyz

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The heavy point/clip point bolo is more conducive to chopping motions with lots of swing room and for large jobs.
> 
> The thinner drop point or even upturned thrusting point bolo is more conducive to slicing motions and tight space work on smaller objects.
> 
> I would imagine that the RP/Negrito bolo was more functional in the jungle environment/small produce farming demands. It would also be a good tool for the Ocho Ocho style of RP's Grandfather because of the medio/corto cutting pattern of continuous slicing/redirecting.



I'm a bit confused.  isn't a drop point considered to be stronger than a clip point?  Could the drop point design be almost a compromise?  Adding the thrusting ability to the bolo while still maintaining chopping ability?


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## Dieter

Hi, 

have a look at this link here. 

Then scroll down to the middle, Plat 12

There they have a variety of bolos, all different shapes.

Regards


Dieter


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## arnisandyz

Tulisan said:
			
		

> but I find it difficult to get history on these...especially exact dates. I was wondering if you had any good resources for me.
> 
> Yes, resources are hard to come by. The few that i have found you have already cited in this or other threads. If I do find any others i'll be sure to post them.
> 
> Here is a script from people discussing Bolos vs Moro type blades in the FMA...
> BladeForums.com: The Leading Edge of Knife Discussion > Tactics & Training > Filipino Combat Arts Forum > sword preferences...
> 
> 
> TheMorningStar
> 07-22-2001, 06:03 PM
> it seems the general consensus nowadays is toward the usage of moro blades, yet many respective systems were never traditionally geared toward them... would anyone like to come forward and explain why so?
> don't get me wrong, personally there is almost nothing like a moro blade in comparison, but does anyone here have any other native sword preferences then those moro/islamic in nature?
> 
> bayani
> 07-23-2001, 01:24 AM
> Y'know, as far as I understand it, apart from the long utilitarian bush knives that are generically known in the Northern and Central Philippines as "bolos", the only true Filipino *swords* ARE the Muslim blades...Not to say that there aren't different types of Bolos--the Pinuti, the Matulis, the Itak, the Ginunting, etc....and I guess they can be kinda lumped into the sword category (and it's not to say that they aren't awesome battle blades when made well), but they don't have the same level of mystique and history that the Filipino Muslim blades have...nor were they intended to have it...again, they were meant for work...
> 
> Just a thought, be safe and well.
> 
> ~bayani~
> 
> Federico
> 07-23-2001, 02:21 AM
> Gotta agree with Bayani. Most of the Filipino blades used by Christians were primarily just bolos. Now there is precedence for the use of European blades by various police and military, but in general these werent used in the fashion as seen in arnis. Instead they were primarily used as they were intended, and more or less were for dress. For a long time Spain outlawed much weaponry so that would explain why bolos were used instead of more combat oriented blades such as used by the Moros.
> 
> As for the use of moro blades in modern FMA well to really understand how they function and what works with them you gotta handle and antique. As for reasoning why most FMA isnt really traditionally geared towards them is simple. Most FMA taught in the US isnt/wasnt invented or used by Moros. So most FMA wasnt developed around Moro swords. If you ever watch Cecil Quirino's Sailing the Sulu Seas they have a Moro do some moves in traditional silat and kuntaw. Very different than most FMA, though there are similarities.
> 
> TheMorningStar
> 07-23-2001, 11:32 PM
> thanks guys, i really appreciate your feedback on this topic... i guess i just put that out there due to the extensive insistent usage of some fma practicioners for moro blades when their very systems were geared toward bolos and the like. i guess it also has to do w/ my feelings towards those few that take advantage of the pilipino culture and it's weaponry for granted, never fully understanding the gravity of the weapon's place in history and in my heart...
> 
> Bukidnon
> 07-24-2001, 12:01 PM
> I would have to disagree with Bayani and federico. There are non-moro swords in the RP. The pinuti and talibon are combat weapons, not field blades. The lumad (non-muslim tribes of Mindinao bukidnon, manobo, t'boli etc.) have there own swords. Bolo is generic term for blade although it does generally refer to a utlitiy blade. But if you were to show a Barong to Pinoy they would probably call it a bolo.
> 
> This kris and kampilan were not strictly used buy the Moro either. There use was common in the Visayas in pre-hispanic Philippines. Only with the arrival of the Spanish did its use decline.
> 
> Why the use of Moro blades in modern FMA ? Romantacism(sp?). If you use a moro blade this somehow connects you to the fact that the moros were never conquered. Its the same reason some systems try to draw a connection to silat. That is that systems that are connected to silat are older and therefore more "authentic".
> 
> But I think the most significant reason for the use of moro swords in modern FMA it that they look really cool. Which I see nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> V
> 
> Federico
> 07-24-2001, 02:17 PM
> Bukidnon hello. While I wont argue with you that the non-muslim tribes of Mindanao had their own swords I would have to say for many they still fall under the term Moro. In saying this I would have to say look under who made the term Moro in the first place, The Spanish. It was a generic term that they applied to most people of the Southern Philippines not just the Muslims. It is also a very very perjurative word, and I dislike using it but unfortunately it is so widespread it is too difficult to speak of these peoples without using the term. Anyways the yakan (questionably muslim) and bagabo have had strong ties with the sultanates, so easily would be viewed by outsiders as Moros.
> 
> As for the use of the kris and kampilan during pre-hispanic PI that would delve into the original spread of mohomedism and also the common cultural traits possessed by most Filipinos. So the abandoning of these cultural artifacts would be a key signifier when considering the denotation of usage. There is also some disagreement over the use of the word kampilan whe used in reference to Northern Filipinos. It is possible that though the name was used it was for a different blade.
> 
> Bukidnon
> 07-25-2001, 12:57 PM
> I guess the term moro depends on were you come from. The tribes of Mindanao are generally refered to by the christians of Mindanao as belonging to two groups Moro or Manonbo ( muslim or pagan). The spanish also refered to them in this way. The Manobo are actually a specfic group, but the term is used generally to refer to all pagan tribes by christians in Mindanao.
> 
> The term used by the native pagan peoples is 'Lumad'.
> 
> We should do our best in forums such as this one to educate. Thus my distingishing of the two. Just because others are ignorant we should not incourage this ignorance.
> 
> I still stand by my statement that there are as bayani out it "true non-moro swords" both inregards to the lumad and now predominatly christain population. Its all in the way we use the term bolo and moro. Can a sword be a bolo? yes. Are all bolos swords? no.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Vince
> 
> bayani
> 07-25-2001, 01:47 PM
> Hey, Bukidnon...just wanna say thanks for the heads up on the term for the non-Muslim pagan tribes of the Southern P.I....and, yes I KNOW that this is kinda outside the scope of the original topic, but (and this question is directed to Bukidnon, Federico, and anybody else that cares to jump in) just WHAT (and HOW) do they worship? I've heard variously that they are "animists", worshipping nature and the like--but is it the old "Bathala" religion ("Bathala" being a name used for God by the ancient Pinoy, FYI) or what? Coz, frankly I don't know...How does their worship impact upon/reflect their warrior culture (if at all)? The Muslims of the Southlands have "parang sabbil/juramentado", that I know...and the Christian Eskrimadors often retain many practices/beliefs that go back to the "old ways" (anting-anting, etc.)...does the pagan religion(s) date back to the pre-Muslim times (Shri Vijaya, as opposed to Majapahit--which was staunchly Muslim), etc? Any info on this would be most appreciated, coz I really don't know all that much on the topic, and I'm finding this all quite fascinating...
> 
> Good thread so far, till later, be safe and joyful...
> 
> ~bayani~
> 
> Bukidnon
> 07-26-2001, 09:57 AM
> Bayani,
> 
> There are many groups. Off the the top of my head bukidnon, manobo, western manobo, matigsalug, bagobo, hinuguan(sp?), t'boli, tagoloan . This is only a few examples. I don't know what there individual practices are, but for the most part they are animist. I don't think it is same as the "Bathala" religion which was a specfic belief system, I believe of the Tagalogs. I witnessed a Bukidnon tribe cermoney in bukidnon province back in 97. Were there was ritual sacrafice of pigs and chickens. I do not really know that much about the other groups. I honestly don't know how religion affects there warrior culture.
> 
> This does date back before the arrival of islam. The Bukidnon,Tagoloan and Hinuguan (basically the same group) maybe a glimps of what the ancient visayans were like because there oral tradition is that they came from the sea and coast. They went inland to escape islam. The city of Cagayan de Oro takes its name for a bukidnon word (if I remember correctly 'Kagayyan') "Place of Shame", were they lost a battle against the Maranao.
> 
> What I can tell you about there warrior art is that it is the spear (not the sword) which plays the more important role in combat and ceremony. This is similar to the ancient visayans according to the great pre-historian on the Philippines W.H. Scott.
> 
> If you are interested in more email me privately.
> 
> BTW: Bayani, we have met. J. Jacobo introduced us at Bakbakan's Masters of the Blade.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vince
> konky26@hotmail.com
> 
> vBulletin v3.0.3, Copyright ©2000-2004, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.


----------



## Cruentus

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Notice the overlap? Clip Points can also be used as utility/camp knives and Drop points can also be used as fighters.



There is definatily an overlap. 

My point isn't relating to what the blade COULD be used for...it is why was it designed or developed that way.

The earliest evidence that I have found (if you find something different, please let me know) of the "Clip point" is with the European sabers. A clip point is where the back edge of the tip is concave, creating a point that can stab with both a forward or backward cut. This clearly acts as an aid for fighting, rather then anything else. Now...I have kitchen knives with clip points, but that is besides the point. The point is, where'd it come from and why was it designed that way.

Examples of points:

Clip point on the SOG Bowie: http://www.knifeoutlet.com/catalog/SOG_Knives/SOG2.htm

Drop point on the microtech "dropoint":
http://www.innerpointcutlery.com/display_item.php?id=107&PHPSESSID=6d8b3f606ec5c38cd4ebc121100346fa

If you compare the Presas Bolo, and the WWII Bolo with Dieters agricultural Bolo, you'll see the very slight difference. The agricultural one is a drop point, although barely. The WWII bolo is barely a clip point, where the clip starts about half way down the blade.

I guess you kind of have to be a knife enthusiest to notice the difference. However, you will gather a much more noticable difference if you actually do target cutting with both tools for comparison.

Regardless...enthusiest or not, most of this stuff is conjecture, as historical references on this subject is difficult to find. And, I think I should note here, that "Martial Arts Masters" and "Historians" are not the same thing. I put more credit on what historians and archeologists and anthropologists say then what someones "master" says, unless we are talking about a primary source.

PAUL


----------



## Cruentus

Dieter said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> have a look at this link here.
> 
> Then scroll down to the middle, Plat 12
> 
> There they have a variety of bolos, all different shapes.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Dieter



Awesome link. I wish there was a way to tell how far back those designs go.


----------



## Black Grass

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Tulisan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but I find it difficult to get history on these...especially exact dates. I was wondering if you had any good resources for me.
> 
> Yes, resources are hard to come by. The few that i have found you have already cited in this or other threads. If I do find any others i'll be sure to post them.
> 
> Here is a script from people discussing Bolos vs Moro type blades in the FMA...
> BladeForums.com: The Leading Edge of Knife Discussion > Tactics & Training > Filipino Combat Arts Forum > sword preferences...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ha thats some stuff i wrote 3 yrs ago come back to haunt me. glad i didn;t put any BS there.
> 
> Vince
> aka Black Grass
Click to expand...


----------



## loki09789

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I'm a bit confused. isn't a drop point considered to be stronger than a clip point? Could the drop point design be almost a compromise? Adding the thrusting ability to the bolo while still maintaining chopping ability?


The heavier tip would make more effective chopping strikes because of the tip weight.  The clip point is not as effective as a drop/tapered point because of simple mechanics.

As far as chopping, consider that the longer the ax handle the more penetrating/forceful the cut can be/theoretically of course.


----------



## Cruentus

this pertains to what we're talking about...

http://cssdsc.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=592


----------



## loki09789

As interesting as this type of intrastyle/historical discourse may be, isn't the ultimate purpose and goal of a 'conceptual art' how well the current players can translate, adapt, adopt and apply the conceptual understanding in an artistic and tactical ways?

Isn't the 'journey' the important thing?  I think Bram's DVD reviews would indicate that he has done some honor to the past by applying his conceptual mastery, research and hard work to a chosen topic of artistic/stylistic research and 'made it his own.'

Others have also chosen to organize, instruct or publish by synthesizing what RP/direct instructors have taught them, instructors from other arts possibly and their own investigations and research.


----------



## Dan Anderson

loki09789 said:
			
		

> *1. *Isn't the 'journey' the important thing?  I think Bram's DVD reviews would indicate that he has done some honor to the past by applying his conceptual mastery, research and hard work to a chosen topic of artistic/stylistic research and 'made it his own.'
> 
> *2. *Others have also chosen to organize, instruct or publish by synthesizing what RP/direct instructors have taught them, instructors from other arts possibly and their own investigations and research.



1.  Absolutely.

2.  Are you obliquely pointing a finger at me?  If not, I'll do it.     And shame on you for not pointing a finger at me.  I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse. :roflmao: 

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS  :whip:  I like this one.
PPS I stole the last line from Grouch Marx.


----------



## OULobo

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Isn't the RP family design also known as a Negrito Bolo?



I have always heard the "RP family design" call the Negrito and what Deiter gave as examples from D. Canete as the Bonafacio or Bowie. 

Negrito from the tribe / area and Bonafacio after the PI hero that supposedly carried the same design.


----------



## arnisandyz

OULobo said:
			
		

> I have always heard the "RP family design" call the Negrito and what Deiter gave as examples from D. Canete as the Bonafacio or Bowie.
> 
> Negrito from the tribe / area and Bonafacio after the PI hero that supposedly carried the same design.



I've also heard the Bonifacio design called the Katipunan design.


----------



## OULobo

Tulisan said:
			
		

> As I also mentioned... there probably aren't linguistic differences between the two. It would make more sense that the tools would be linguistically seperated by purpose (Tusok or tabak) rather then "fighting" or "not fighting."
> 
> And, thinking of the different PI blades you mentioned...
> 
> Kampilan: Resembles the arabic scimitar. THis would make sense, as it was donned by seafaring Moro's.
> Barong: Doesn't resemble anything I could find in history...design seems completely native to the PI/islander peoples.
> Pinuti: Isn't this basically a Bolo, but Visiyan? Interestingly the one they sell at Kris cutlery is a "1800's design" and resemblesa fighting bolo.
> Gununting: Hmmm...resembles some arabic blades as well, but not sure.
> 
> The reason I am thinking of these, is because you mention that they predate the bolo, and were used as fighting tools. I am not in disagreement with you (except I thought pinuti was just a visiyan bolo), but I find it difficult to get history on these...especially exact dates. I was wondering if you had any good resources for me.
> 
> PAUL



The kampilan is actually most likely gleaned from the mandaus of the Dayak tribes in Borneo, from which the kampilan gets both it's decorative hilt and its straight flat chopper like blade shape. 

The barong in myopinionis indeed truly unique to the PIs.

The pinuti is likely based of the spanish swords of the day in it's slender profile and clip point. 

The gununting traces to the tenegre or "monster hilt" bolos of the visayans. I would venture to the agricultural choppers of various design from there. 

Another design that relates to the flat or rounded tiped weapons that are indeed fighters are the Indo. klawang.


----------



## arnisandyz

OULobo said:
			
		

> The kampilan is actually most likely gleaned from the mandaus of the Dayak tribes in Borneo, from which the kampilan gets both it's decorative hilt and its straight flat chopper like blade shape.
> 
> The barong in myopinionis indeed truly unique to the PIs.
> 
> The pinuti is likely based of the spanish swords of the day in it's slender profile and clip point.
> 
> The gununting traces to the tenegre or "monster hilt" bolos of the visayans. I would venture to the agricultural choppers of various design from there.
> 
> Another design that relates to the flat or rounded tiped weapons that are indeed fighters are the Indo. klawang.



How about the golok? I think variations found its way into the PI through Indonesia, they pretty much serve the same purpose as the bolo.


----------



## OULobo

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I've also heard the Bonifacio design called the Katipunan design.



That would make sense considering, if I have my PI history right, he was a Katipunan.


----------



## OULobo

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> How about the golok? I think variations found its way into the PI through Indonesia, they pretty much serve the same purpose as the bolo.



I have always seen the term golok and bolo as terms for machetes with a local flare. I don't really think there is a definite shape or example of either. I would even go so far as to say the same thing about the term parang with the differance between aa parang and a golok being that the parang seems to be reserved for the longer machetes and swords and golok reserved for the shorter.


----------



## Cruentus

I'm going to sort of steer things back on track here...

There are a lot of Filipino and Indonesian blades out there with different histories behind them. However, the main questions and answers are...

*#1. Is it possible that some Bolo's were designed more for combat, and that others were designed more for agricultural use?*

Naw...not possible at all. And if you believe that then I have a left handed hammer to sell you to screw in that phillips head screw...  . The fact is that mankind tailors tools to fit the needs of the job, and to make jobs easier. If we tailor knives today for combat rather then simple utility, then why would it be so far fetched to believe that the Filipino's would do the same? Furthermore, simple physics and a little understanding of history will tell you that a top heavy blade with a rounded, or less drastic point is more suited for swinging and hacking...ie. cutting folige or crops. A little history and physics will also tell you that a clip point was less effecient for daily work because you had more risk of breaking the tip then with the other points, but the clip point (which traces back to the spanish saber) is specifically designed for combat (opening a wound, stabbing, and reverse or back cut specifically). However, to realize things from a historical perspective may require a trip to the library, and may require (gasp) a little research. I know, I know...what fun is that.

*#2. What about now a days? * Now a days, you can find kitchen knives with clip points. Now a days, your utility knives can have Tanto tips. Heck...now a days I realize that paste has more uses beyond being a tasty, pre-school snack. None of this matters...what we are talking about is what was the original purpose of the design was for, and the history behind it. If you know a little something about blade design, when you simply look at the design of the WWII bolo's and the Presas bolo's, the message of "what's this for" is fairly easy to decifer, especially when compared to other blades.

* #3. What about a Filipino/Spanish connection? * Hmmm....lets see. Origin of the clip point: European/Spanish Sabers. Spain....occupied PI for a few hundreed years, starting in the 1500's. Historical comparison: Bowie knife w/ clip point was designed from Spanish Sabers. Also, Bowie's resemble many "fighting" Bolo's (by design, a Bolo can be thought of as longer, more slender Bowie, when you really compare the 2), and in fact some of the more drastic clip points have been termed "bowie tipped" bolo's.

Now, based on this basic information, can one make the crazy conjecture that Spain MAY have influenced the Filipino Blade design? And if that part is true, then MIGHT have Spain also influenced some of the fighting techniques and methods regarding the tool? 

I know, I know...real far fetched isn't it. However, when you make that trip to the library to check on the other stuff, you might wanna check on this one as well. YOu might find that the answer to this is most likely a "yes" then a "no."

In the mean time, I'll be practicing my #5 and my #12 blocks...


Anyways....

The above 3 are the main theories that I had in mind in this discussion. So far on this thread I haven't run into a strong arguement against any of the above 3.

 :asian: 
PAUL


----------



## arnisandyz

*#1. Is it possible that some Bolo's were designed more for combat, and that others were designed more for agricultural use?

YES! as you mentioned, evolution of tools.  a sawed-off shotgun that was originally made for hunting birds becomes a formidable weapon.

 #3. What about a Filipino/Spanish connection? Spain MAY have influenced the Filipino Blade design? And if that part is true, then MIGHT have Spain also influenced some of the fighting techniques and methods regarding the tool? 

YES!  I myself am a product of Spanish influence in the Philippines. The Spanish occupation influenced the people, food, language, arts and overall culture.

I know, I know...real far fetched isn't it....I haven't run into a strong arguement against any of the above 3.

Why do you think we think it is far fetched? You haven't run inot a strong arument against because what you stated is a fairly obvious assumption. The replys that I and others were giving wasn't to prove your statements wrong, only to add to the discussion.

Peace,

andy*


----------



## arnisandyz

The post I made earlier about a tabak bolo for chopping vs a tusok bolo for killing pigs, etc.

Would it not also be an assumtion that these tools already existed for performing various tasks and when the time came for someone to choose a tool for combat they picked the one that was better at killing?  I'm not trying to prove  you wrong, only stating that we really don't know what came first,  the tool or the designer.

It would also be naive to believe that the clip point ONLY existed in combat application as applied to the bolo. Even considering that the clip point IS a combat design, with the Philippines history of warefare with itself and other cultures (including Spain), and if you see the vast array of wild blade shapes both for war and agriculture, could the clip point have been used even by coincidence or accident before the bolo was ever used for war? again, not to prove you wrong, but just another assumtion.

So in the end, my assumtions are just as valid as yours and just as difficult to be proven wrong.  WHO KNOWS?


----------



## Flatlander

My thought here is, given that many people in th Phillipines exist in poverty, and have for awhile, it seems likely that some may have required an "every purpose" bolo.  Would numbers #4 and #2 from plate 12 of Datu Deiter's link fit this possibility?


----------



## Cruentus

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> [B
> Why do you think we think it is far fetched? You haven't run inot a strong arument against because what you stated is a fairly obvious assumption. The replys that I and others were giving wasn't to prove your statements wrong, only to add to the discussion.



Oh...no, I don't REALLY think that it is far fetched at all, I was just letting my natural sarcasm get the better of me!  :uhyeah: 

For some reasons that I have yet to figure out, Bram Frank seems to be taking heat by making the distinction between "fighting" and "agricultural" bolo. I am not a Bram Frank student (although I can say I like his work), but I have done a little bit of my own independent research prior to his Bolo DVD release and commentary, and I can say at least on this point (and really, the 3 points above) that this is true.

Yet, some want to argue with me, without bringing any real evidence to the table of course. So, some of my sarcasm is run-off from other threads/forums/discussions. I apologize for it...as I hope that you don't take it the wrong way. Most of you here HAVE been good contributors to the discussion here!  :asian: 

 :ultracool


----------



## loki09789

Check out the Rick Mitchell article on the "INteresting Topic" discussion.


----------



## Cruentus

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> The post I made earlier about a tabak bolo for chopping vs a tusok bolo for killing pigs, etc.
> 
> Would it not also be an assumtion that these tools already existed for performing various tasks and when the time came for someone to choose a tool for combat they picked the one that was better at killing?  I'm not trying to prove  you wrong, only stating that we really don't know what came first,  the tool or the designer.



Right...but what makes or breaks the idea of spanish influence on the blade design is the clip point. In most cultures, and even in many tusok bolo's today, a drop point does the job, and in fact does "jobs" better then the clip point. On to the clip point...



> It would also be naive to believe that the clip point ONLY existed in combat application as applied to the bolo. Even considering that the clip point IS a combat design, with the Philippines history of warefare with itself and other cultures (including Spain), and if you see the vast array of wild blade shapes both for war and agriculture, could the clip point have been used even by coincidence or accident before the bolo was ever used for war? again, not to prove you wrong, but just another assumtion.
> 
> So in the end, my assumtions are just as valid as yours and just as difficult to be proven wrong.  WHO KNOWS?



I agree...who knows? And, I am not claiming a superior stance, but I am offering one conclusion. My conclusion, however, has strong evidence to back it up.

Now... I plan to re-look at some of those crazy historicial resources to get actual dates, but the actual clip point dates back to the Spanish Saber in the same manner that the Tanto point dates back to the Katana. So to me, saying that the clip point was created in the PI only coincidentally would be like saying that it is only coincidental that my american Ka-bar knife has a tanto tip, which is the same tip as the Katana.

Now, I admit that this conjecture could be wrong, and it could be coincidental...however, I can't make that assumption without evidence. I have yet to see a PI desinged blade with a clip point that predates the Spanish clip point, or even one that predates Spanish occupation. When I see that evidence, then I can give more credence to another possability.

:asian:


----------



## Cruentus

flatlander said:
			
		

> My thought here is, given that many people in th Phillipines exist in poverty, and have for awhile, it seems likely that some may have required an "every purpose" bolo.  Would numbers #4 and #2 from plate 12 of Datu Deiter's link fit this possibility?



Yes, it is possible. However, keep in mind that although many people are in poverty, weaponry is very inexpensive. Yet, I would say most people carried bolo's not designed specifically for combat, but rather for their work. I think #4 and #2 could definatily fit this category.

 :asian:


----------



## arnisandyz

Bram Frank seems to be taking heat by making the distinction between "fighting" and "agricultural" bolo.

I can see the distinction he is trying to make, a bolo design more suitable or even modified for Presas style of combat. I can also see why he may be getting flak. Other systems do use the tabak style bolo for combat, so in a sense to them, he is referring that mine is better than yours (or this design that  I use is for combat, and that design that you are using is for cutting weeds). Then to many, its one in the same, it just depends what you use it for. If you use it in your garden its agricultural, if you defend your home with it, it a fighting bolo. They might think its silly to make the distinction.

In any case, i always enjoy your posts!

andy


----------



## Tgace

Who out there is really using bolos in combat anymore? Is it a current issue item to Phillipino troops?


----------



## arnisandyz

I plan to re-look at some of those crazy historicial resources to get actual dates, but the actual clip point dates back to the Spanish Saber in the same manner that the Tanto point dates back to the Katana. 

Paul,

here are some links, the Laring and Lahot could be considered a clip.  I also have the bigger shield that has has many more designs that are similar to a clippoint.

http://cutlerscove.com/advertising-knives/weapons-of-moroland.htm


Artists representation, don't know why he chose to represent the barong with a clippoint when its usually a leaf-shape.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ds+of+the+philippines&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=G


----------



## OULobo

Tgace said:
			
		

> Who out there is really using bolos in combat anymore? Is it a current issue item to Phillipino troops?



Anyone who has one handy when they get attacked, or more importantly, anyone who has one and can't afford a gun.


----------



## Cruentus

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I plan to re-look at some of those crazy historicial resources to get actual dates, but the actual clip point dates back to the Spanish Saber in the same manner that the Tanto point dates back to the Katana.
> 
> Paul,
> 
> here are some links, the Laring and Lahot could be considered a clip.  I also have the bigger shield that has has many more designs that are similar to a clippoint.
> 
> http://cutlerscove.com/advertising-knives/weapons-of-moroland.htm
> 
> 
> Artists representation, don't know why he chose to represent the barong with a clippoint when its usually a leaf-shape.
> 
> http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ds+of+the+philippines&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=G



Could be...problem is for one, what evidence to we have that any of "the weapons of moroland" predate the Spanish? That is what I am looking for.

A side note: It is clear that the muslim culture migrated through indonesia and ended up in the PI, hence "Moro's." So, it is possible that the clip point could have come from them. Incidentally, though, the muslims got the design from Spain, according to the source I read. 

So, it is kind of a "6 degrees of Kevin Bacon" game with Spain (ummm...6 degrees of spain?  :ultracool ) until we can prove that an outside culture designed the clip point without Spanish influence, and a "which came 1st, the chicken or the egg" game to figure out if the clip point design was in the PI prior to Magellen.

Oh...and andy...I enjoy your posts as well!  :boing2:


----------



## OULobo

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Paul,
> 
> here are some links, the Laring and Lahot could be considered a clip.  I also have the bigger shield that has has many more designs that are similar to a clippoint.
> 
> http://cutlerscove.com/advertising-knives/weapons-of-moroland.htm



Without sounding conceited, I would mention that those little plaques are the worst representations of ethnic PI blades.


----------



## arnisandyz

OULobo said:
			
		

> Without sounding conceited, I would mention that those little plaques are the worst representations of ethnic PI blades.



I agree, they're not very proptional and should considered "artists representations" of the actual weapons, some are somewhat acurate, some are way off!


----------



## Cruentus

OULobo said:
			
		

> Without sounding conceited, I would mention that those little plaques are the worst representations of ethnic PI blades.



WHAATAYAMEAN!  :rofl:


----------



## Cruentus

Some more information...some posts I have from another forum...enjoy!



> Warning...long post ahead (I know, big surprise)
> 
> A number of things to address and a lot of Bullcrap to say...so...I'll number them:
> 
> #1. Professor was very selective with who he taught blade.
> 
> I concur. It seemed that you'd better not only have a good darned reason for wanting to learn it, but he had to trust you as well. A couple things about Professor were, for one, he abhorred violence. He had been there, done that, and wasn't really interested in going back. Many of us can relate, I am sure. Two, he viewed the blade as a killing instrument. He did not have the modern tactical concept of the blade that we today have. In his mind, if you had a blade, the purpose was to kill, period.
> 
> This should explain why the focus of the art (Modern Arnis) at the seminars was stick training, then empty hand...then how it is "all the same." In his mind, you weren't supposed to be carrying around bolo's or daga's and chopping off heads. For the most part, he figured in a civilized environment (and keep in mind that just about anywhere U.S.A. -even eastside D-town- is civilized compared to the PI that he grew up in) you wouldn't be carrying anything. So, if you were attacked, you defended yourself with your empty hand, or you picked something up...and chances are that "something" would translate well to the stick. So...he taught us stick, and how it is all the same. He would sometimes say how it related to the blade, but this was more for historical reference, and for a "just in case." We did some knife disarms...empty hand vs. knife..."just in case." I never saw, at least in the Midwest or East coast, a seminar dedicated to "blade work".
> 
> So..you got blade if there was a specific purpose he had for showing you, and if he trusted you; not because you showed up at the seminar. Now, as it applies to me...for a long time I was not sure why I got the bits and pieces of the blade that I did. Although, today I teach some military guys out of sulfrage (when they're not in Iraq, as all my guys are right now), I certainly wasn't back then. I was in my late teens when I first started getting the applications!! So it wasn't like GM Kelly's situation for me, where he was teaching a bunch of operators at the time. I was not teaching operators. However, I bugged him, and I bugged him; and I remember saying to him that I wanted to understand how it was the same, and how it fit with the history of the art. The only thing I can come up with was that he taught me because he trusted me, number one, and that I wouldn't flaunt it around or use it in a bad way. And...as tempting as the ego can be, I KNEW that the minute I said to someone else "Look what Remy taught me," that would be the last time he taught me anything with the blade. I think that the second reason he taught me was because he felt comfortable that I wasn't bugging him about it so I could use it to kill, or to be a badass with it. I think he knew that at the time my reason for learning it was simply because I wanted a complete picture...to broaden my understanding of the art.
> 
> The above, of course, is just my perception of things...
> 
> #2. If Remy didn't want to teach the blade openly...then is it ethical for those who got it to teach it openly?
> 
> Boy...isn't that the big question with some of this stuff!? I don't claim to have the answer to this either, but I can offer my opinion on the matter. Please brace yourself for a very libertarian viewpoint on weapons...
> 
> I say that whether or not it is ethical to teach the blade openly depends on whom youre teaching it too, and why. Remy saw the blade as a killing tool, so he did not teach it openly. But he did teach it to those he trusted, and thought it O.K. to teach it to those who might have to use it in combat. (GM Kelly teaching military, for example).
> 
> However, I am not sure that Professor understood, or cared to know, the tactical self-defense approach to the blade. I am not sure he understood, or cared to understand, how to use the blade as a self-defense tool rather then an offensive tool. However, none of us are Remy. Bare with me on this tangent here, but the fact is, not everyone has Remy Presas attributes. I hate to sound like a hero worshipper here, but the man was practically fricken superhuman. I am thoroughly convinced that he would find/make a way to defend himself, and would succeed in almost any CQC situation. To kill him, you either had to be cancer, or a sniper bullet. With his attributes, one could sit back and say, "I am not carrying a knife...those are for killing!" Guess what...Remy wouldn't carry a gun either. However, I don't trust that my fiancés, for example, should say or do the same thing. She does not/ will never have Remy Presas attributes or fighting abilities. So...what is she to do if a larger, stronger male attacks her...especially if he is armed? This goes for anyone. Not everyone has lethal hands, not everyone has Remy Presas attributes yet we all have the right to defend ourselves. So, we have the right to carry a firearm. We also have the right to carry knives. And...we have the rights to defend ourselves with these accordingly, and learn how accordingly.
> 
> So, my answer is that it is ethical to teach blade, because we all have the rights to defend ourselves. If it is taught in an ethical and prudent manner, and self-defense is advocated rather then "offense," then it shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> So, to define what I am saying, I say that you teach blade to fulfill the needs of the student. I have taught military men. In fact, I have an instructional DVD that is in Iraq right now, so they can have something to practice off of. Sowhy isn't it for sale on my website? Well, besides sh**ty production quality, WHAT I TEACH MILITARY IS NOT THE SAME THING I TEACH CIVILIANS! I am not going to teach a civilian how to close, rip out a guys throat or guts, then book to find a rifle. Sorry. However, I do teach civilians how to carry and use the blade. When I do this, I cover the legal definitions of lethal force, the legal requirements and restrictions by my state, and I show a prudent way to use the tool so you wont be FOUND GUILTY by 12, or carried by 6.
> 
> Now, there is some value in learning stuff like the bolo, or like a traditional blade for instructional/historical/developmental reasons...outside what is practical or prudent. I teach my students that I am grooming to be instructors about the blade, and some of the darker aspects. I do this because for one, as instructors they need a complete picture for their own understanding. For two...I trust them, or they wouldn't be members of my group. However...they know that they are expected to be prudent with the information.
> 
> This leads us to the next question...
> 
> #3. Is it O.K. to market or sell blade stuff to the public, beyond civilian self defense?
> 
> Man...another toughie. I don't claim to have the right answer on this one either...just an opinion.
> 
> In my opinion, any idiot can go out and buy a gun, or some explosives, and go out an kill oodles of people. Even if guns were outlawed, the criminals could get them on the black market, and us civilians would be Screwed with a capital "S" for our own abilities to defend ourselves. Now...why would the guy intending to kill a bunch of people do so by eloquently training in a knife system, or through a knife video? Out of all the criminal behavior out there, you never see the headline, "Man kills thousands; Worden tactical folder and 'Water and Steel' video found on criminal!" It just doesn't happened that way because the criminal or crazy person is not going to invest in the time to learn from a martial artist, or a martial arts video, when that person can take the easy way out.
> 
> Now, lets pretend that the crazy person does rob a 7-11 with a Presas Bolo after watching an instructional tape, or a Worden Tactical Folder after an instructional seminar. Who's to blame? The crazy person, thats who. The fact is, they are crazy. If the Worden blade or Presas blade was unavailable, they would have found something else to use to rob that store.
> 
> So, I don't get too uptight about what is out there for people to train from, nor do I think others should. Now, for myself (at least at this time) I don't feel comfortable teaching what I teach my military brothers to everyone...I still want to somewhat control that information. However, I don't expect everyone else out there to follow my standard. As far as I am concerned, ethics on this is not set in stone, and moral standards are going to vary. Whether or not it is ethical to teach blade has everything to do with your reasons behind it, IMHO. And...one cannot expect everyone else to adhere to one persons particular standard.
> 
> #4. So...then is it O.K. to market something, like a blade DVD, with the Presas name on it?
> 
> Another big question...and boy, I REALLY don't have the answer to this one.
> 
> I don't know if it is right to put the Presas name on my products or not. On the one hand...I want to attribute my stuff to my instructor(s), out of respect. On the other hand...I don't want to ride on any of my instructors coat tails, or cheapen their name by using it for marketing reasons.
> 
> However, the question is, where does one draw the line? I really don't know...and I hope that my seniors here like GM Kelly or Prof. Dan A., and the others that I know can give me their opinions.
> 
> My personal solution has been (if you look through my website) to not ride on even the Modern Arnis name. The name of my group is "Tulisan Eskrima Gild." Since what I have is not pure Modern Arnis, I do not use the Modern Arnis name, even though I have enough "authority" in the system to do whatever I want. My products (future products...heh...) will have my name on them, not anyone elses. I am just not comfortable with representing someone elses name other then my own. However, I give credit where it is due, because I think that is important. Yet, if I do something then it is a "Paul Janulis" production, not a "Presas" production, or anyone elses production.
> 
> Anyways...this is my solution. And..this is what I think is right for me. However, I cannot expect everyone to follow my standards, as my standards aren't right for everyone. The only absolute here seems to be that there are no absolutes.
> 
> So (and sorry to point out the pink elephant in the room) IS IT O.K. THAT BRAM CALLED HIS PROGRAM BY THE PRESAS NAME? Well, I am not going to be upset over the issue. What is right for Paul may not be right for Bram. He doesn't claim superiority to the rest of us, nor does he claim to speak for anyone in the Presas family, the late Professor, or others. He claims he used the name to give respect to his late teacher. Since this is his reasoning, I can't see anything wrong with this or be angry with him for it...even if it is not something I would do myself.
> 
> #5. More clear clarification on the difference between a bush knife and fighting knife...
> 
> Different tools are used for different things. Today, we have knives that are used for combat. We also have knives used for utility. You could use both for utility, and for combat. So...I think that a slender, clip pointed bolo was designed for combat. However...I am sure that many used different bolo's for combat, and combat bolo's for fieldwork. The Filipino's distinguished them by thrusting (Tusok, or Ibak) or chopping (Tabak). As Halford confirmed, this applied to all bolo's, whether designed for combat or not. As I said before, the Filipino's did not distinguish between combat and non-combat tools by language. I feel that it is the design that distinguishes the tools.
> 
> Now...I am not sure why people get upset over the seemingly logical idea that someone would design a tool for a purpose in mind. I only am interested to understand the history behind the tool, to broaden my knowledge. Beyond that...you say tomato, I say tomato; and I am in agreement with GM Kelly and others that a bolo is a bolo is a bolo...
> 
> #6. Why wasn't the "Presas Bolo" in the pictures of his books...
> 
> Not having dug through my storage closet to dig out the books in many months...I thought that the bolo's in the pink book and the "practical art of eskrima" book WERE the "family design"...or of the same/similar design then the one I have on a stand in my bedroom? This was also the same design in a Dan Inosanto book when referring to WWII bolo knives, and also what looks to be the same identical design from the one the Bram has on his website here, called "The Remy Presas Bolo Set":
> 
> http://www.gunting-museum.com/CSSD-SC_Weapons/Bolo_Set/bolo_set.html
> 
> Now... If I am wrong, please correct me. If the "Presas Bolo" was the same design that other people used outside of the family, as I am guessing is the case, then fine. But it seems that this design was the preferred design by Professor.
> 
> Now...I do not know if this was truly a "family thing" a "regional thing" or simply, Professors personal preference. I say see what Ernesto, or Remy Jr. and family, or what the PI master have to say on that one.
> 
> #7. When I was given a bolo...
> 
> I was given a bolo in 95'. No big deal. I didn't take this to mean that I am the heir to the deadly Presas blade art, his high-ranking bolo king, or that this gave me outright permission to swing it around like my wangy and make outlandish claims with it. However...he did say it was "his family bolo."
> 
> Now...what the hell does that mean!? I don't know. I hate having to make conjectures at that sort of thing. I did not take it to mean that he gave me a family heirloom. He said a lot of things to make people feel good, so maybe he was just doing that. I think that most likely he meant that this was the preferred design of his families art.
> 
> Now...I don't know what Bram has. I don't know if he has something that originally belonged to Remy's uncle or dad or granddad...or if it was just the same design that they had. I only know what I got, and what I was told.
> 
> My opinion is that the family (uncle, dad, grand dad) had a preferred design rather then an heirloom...and I have a blade of that design on display in my bedroom that I got from the old man. My opinion may not be right, though, as I do not have all the facts...I only know what I was told/have.
> 
> Who is this Paul Janulis guy...and why is he talking...does he have any credibility to say anything?
> 
> I don't usually speak to my own credibility, or make claims to anything, so I am sure that some of you think that I am just some Internet joker. The answer is yes to both. I like to joke, and play online. But I do have some credibility. I don't claim superiority or anything, but I think that I have the rights to a say on my art(s) just like anyone else. Click on my website, and find the info on my rank and other things if your interested. Ask me if youre curious. And fight me to the death highlander style if you want to absorb my powers..."because there can be only one!" lol...
> 
> Sorry for the loong one...
> time to go chill in my tactical underwear...and ha-ha-haha-ha to all of you...I got the Jungle wrestling blow-up doll for my lonely nights instead of flares!
> 
> Peace...
> 
> Paul Janulis


----------



## Cruentus

Here is some more...this was addressed to "Datu Halford Jones"...editor of Filipino Martial Arts Magazine. The content, however, applies to "martial history"...enjoy again!



> I'll leave you with this for now:
> 
> The problem with "martial arts history" is that it too often lacks academic validity.
> 
> When we, the students, want to learn about our history, we do what is logical to us, and we ask an instructor. However, we often fail to realize that this is only that instructors viewpoint. That instructor may be a martial arts master, but he is not a historian. He may be a good primary source for what has happened in his lifetime, but how can we rely on his knowledge of history anymore then I can rely on my Army Ranger buddy to tell me how soldiers of the Civil War fought? We cannot rely on this info alone to be valid. Furthermore, even when dealing with primary information, what are the motives or the viewpoints of that particular master? A primary source is just that...only one viewpoint.
> 
> So, when we rely ONLY on the stories of old eskrimadors, what are we left with? Blind Princess stories and cool fantasies about hermits and tunnels of death. Neat stories...but "history"?  No...these primary sources are only one piece of the puzzle.
> 
> A real historian relies on information from living sources, but only as a part of the puzzle. There is archeological, anthropological, and other forms of evidence that also help tell the story.
> 
> So...I am not going to solely rely on Yambao, written in the mid-20th century for information on a blade design history that could predate the 16th century. I can't rely solely on linguistical evidence alone based on the multitude of evolving languages in the PI. I can't rely on Mark Wiley's interpretation, based off only primary sources coupled with his own inferences, however well done his work may be. These are only parts of a bigger picture.
> 
> Now, I have posted my theory and evidence on the idea of a bolo designed for combative use, and on the idea of Spanish influence on both the tool and fighting styles. I, by no means, claim to be infallable on this. If you, or anyone, disagree's with my idea's, fine. But, if someone wants to argue my points, then I hope that they bring good sources to the table so that I can review their evidence.
> 
> 
> Thanks again...
> 
> PAUL


----------



## DoxN4cer

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. 

Many of the posts on "jungle bolo" threads seem to be attempts to discredit Bram Frank and what he represents.  PG Roland Dantes, a close personal friend of the late Professor, has related personal conversations that the Professor was very proud of Bram for his work.  Those accolades came from the Professor himself.  

There is nothing wrong with Bram in producing the Presas Bolo and the subsequent training videos.  What would be wrong is if he ripped off the material from somewhere else and then labeled it as something that he "created" as a "branch" of Modern Arnis claiming that he had the Professor's "blessing".  Bram will give credit where it is due. 

Bram honors the memory of the Professor through his products and his teaching; and moreover, he's quite humble about it.  The fact remains that Bram has done his own work, is respected by blade fighting exponents damn near everywhere, and he doesn't go out of his way to put down other high profie instructors; even when they do the same to him.

It's amazing how partisan politics is allowed to fester here, under the watchful eye of the impartial moderators.  What's to be gained by all the slickly disguised character assanination and trash talking?  

Tim Kashino


----------



## Rich Parsons

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is.
> 
> Many of the posts on "jungle bolo" threads seem to be attempts to discredit Bram Frank and what he represents.  PG Roland Dantes, a close personal friend of the late Professor, has related personal conversations that the Professor was very proud of Bram for his work.  Those accolades came from the Professor himself.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Bram in producing the Presas Bolo and the subsequent training videos.  What would be wrong is if he ripped off the material from somewhere else and then labeled it as something that he "created" as a "branch" of Modern Arnis claiming that he had the Professor's "blessing".  Bram will give credit where it is due.
> 
> Bram honors the memory of the Professor through his products and his teaching; and moreover, he's quite humble about it.  The fact remains that Bram has done his own work, is respected by blade fighting exponents damn near everywhere, and he doesn't go out of his way to put down other high profie instructors; even when they do the same to him.
> 
> It's amazing how partisan politics is allowed to fester here, under the watchful eye of the impartial moderators.  What's to be gained by all the slickly disguised character assanination and trash talking?
> 
> Tim Kashino



Tim, 

While I agree about Bram Frank having trained with GM R Presas and doing his own work to make it all his.  I have a concern. You state that Character Assassination and trash talking. While I make the comment that I have not read every single post here. Could you please use the "Report to Mod" function and point out your concerns. We cannot do anything unless we are informed. I have been extremely busy with a couple other forums here on MT, so I would appreciate the reports.

Thank You

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Assistant Operational Adminsitrator


----------



## Guro Harold

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> It's amazing how partisan politics is allowed to fester here, under the watchful eye of the impartial moderators.  What's to be gained by all the slickly disguised character assanination and trash talking?
> Tim Kashino



Here are my unofficial thoughts on the matter...
I can truthfully say as a MT participant only, that the festering is very obvious.  Actually, its like a diaper bind at a daycare that needed to be emptied and cleaned up sometime ago because the children should have grown up by now.


----------



## DoxN4cer

Palusut said:
			
		

> Here are my unofficial thoughts on the matter...
> I can truthfully say as a MT participant only, that the festering is very obvious.  Actually, its like a diaper bind at a daycare that needed to be emptied and cleaned up sometime ago because the children should have grown up by now.



Well said.  

It never ceases to amaze me how brave people are when seated at a keyboard.


----------



## sungkit

Tim Kashino:

You have hit the nail right on the head with your post about people attempting to discredit Bram Frank and what he is doing.

I will state this and I am sure Senior Master Roland Dantes will agree with it being said. He has the upmost respect for what Bram Frank is doing and the time, effort and dedication that he has invested into the areas he is working on. Guro Roland was told about Bram Frank in Canada by Professor Remy who was proud of his work also. After meeting Bram in Germany and spending time with him, Guro Roland told me that he is on the right track with his research and was proud to see his work and approach to imparting the knowledge that he has acquired.


----------



## DoxN4cer

sungkit said:
			
		

> Tim Kashino:
> 
> You have hit the nail right on the head with your post about people attempting to discredit Bram Frank and what he is doing.
> 
> I will state this and I am sure Senior Master Roland Dantes will agree with it being said. He has the upmost respect for what Bram Frank is doing and the time, effort and dedication that he has invested into the areas he is working on. Guro Roland was told about Bram Frank in Canada by Professor Remy who was proud of his work also. After meeting Bram in Germany and spending time with him, Guro Roland told me that he is on the right track with his research and was proud to see his work and approach to imparting the knowledge that he has acquired.



Damn skippy!!!!  It's really amazing to see how success paints a huge target on a humble and knowledgable man like Bram.  It's all just sour grapes from the folks that never really "got it" in terms of MA blade work.  The Professor taugh a lot of people a lot of things; and not everybody got the same stuff, although many were led to believe (or led others to believe) that they were more important and influential than they really are.  

TK


----------



## Tgace

Ive heard of Mr. Frank, seen his gunting knife and the like but am admittedly "out of the loop" with 99.9% of this stuff. Apparently this thread is turning towards a critique of his latest product. Maybe I haven been following close enough or Im dense (could be both), but what is the debate here? Is Bram selling a "combat bolo" and people are arguing that there is no such animal??

BTW: cool I just made 2nd black on this post....who wants some!!!???


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> What would be wrong is if he ripped off the material from somewhere else and then labeled it as something that he "created" as a "branch" of Modern Arnis claiming that he had the Professor's "blessing".



I hope you're not saying anything about Dan's MA-80. I know for a *FACT* that he gives credit to Remy when ever possible!


 :whip:


----------



## Guro Harold

Say what you will, but Bram is doing his thing and minding his own business.  Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Sometimes we try to pigeon-hole people into the image of we want them to be but that is only in our own minds.  If a person is mature, they are not worrying about how others perceive or have perceived them or worrying about previous personal mistakes or the mistakes of others.  They concentrate on their continued personal development.

So can there be critical discussion of facts and figures?  By all means.  That is what intellectual discourse is about.  Should we rub people's nose into our perceived expectations?  How can we do so when it is so hard to even please ourselves and meet our own expectations.

Therefore much respect to the goes to those senior students who have lead the way in expanding the knowledge and capturing in video, book, or teaching their research in the arts.

Palusut


----------



## Guro Harold

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Well said.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how brave people are when seated at a keyboard.


Yeah, I didn't need a secret id to hide behind when I said it either!!! :wink2:  :wink:


----------



## Dan Anderson

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> I hope you're not saying anything about Dan's MA-80. I know for a *FACT* that he gives credit to Remy when ever possible!
> 
> 
> :whip:


Tim,
Thanks for having my back.  Tim K and I have spoken a number of times on the subject of MA-80 and he's not referring to me.

Boy, has this thread gotten way heated about several things.

[So,] again, who knows if there is a proper noun "jungle bolo"?

[If] there are covert or overt cheap shots being take at Bram, too bad so sad.  He's worked his butt off getting to the core of the blade use of Modern Arnis and has gotten recognition for it from others.

I was talking to him tonight and one thing he wants known is that his love of the blade/bolo is no way any kind of dis for the stick.  He admires the hell out of what the "stickers" can do.  His way is the blade and he's happy that _this aspect_ of Modern Arnis is finally coming to the surface.  

Cool.  I can live with that.  It gives me more to work on.  What he learned from Prof. Presas is what he learned, whether in the open of behind closed doors.  Here's a question for all of you out there in cyberland:

Did Prof. Presas ever do tai chi's pushing hands with you?  Nighty-o.  It's late and I've been through a full day of CSSD training.  I'm tired.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Tom - congratulations on your promotion.


----------



## DoxN4cer

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> I hope you're not saying anything about Dan's MA-80. I know for a *FACT* that he gives credit to Remy when ever possible!



Nope, and your effort to instigate something between Dan and I won't work.  Your comment would appear as though YOU are making some sort of inferrence though.  There's a history there as well, but readers can review the archives for themselves.

As Dan has already stated, he and I have spoken about MA-80.  I am on record both here and in print supporting Dan's efforts.  Dan gives credit where it is due.  IMHO, Dan makes an unadulterated presentation of the art.  He doesn't present material from another system and call it his own creation added to MA with the Professor's seal of approval.  

MA-80 is pure RP MA, codified by Dan Anderson, not MA mixed with BJJ, JKD and a smattering knife and stick work from various outside sources to fill in the gaps.  

TK


----------



## DoxN4cer

Palusut said:
			
		

> Yeah, I didn't need a secret id to hide behind when I said it either!!! :wink2:  :wink:



Amen to that.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> He doesn't present material from another system and call it his own creation added to MA with the Professor's seal of approval.



Then who were you referring to?


----------



## DoxN4cer

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Then who were you referring to?



Sorry, not going to enetertain you. You know exactly who I'm talking about, and that's why you asked the question.  Clever, Tim; trying to draw me into making an inflamatory comment that could get me suspended from the forum again.  You're going to have to try harder than that.

Anyway, we're all still waiting for you to contribute something other than inflamatory emoticons, snide comments on my rep board and nebulous statements aimed at creating negative press for someone else. 

*We now interrupt the degradation of the thread and return you to our regularly scheduled program...* 

Ahem...

Back to agriculural and fighting bolos:

I think that the classification and purpose of a bolo is in it's design, and in who made it.  

In my collection, I have what I would classify as a "Farmer's Bolo".  It's like the bolos seen in Apocolypse Now, the one they killed the carabaw with (... ah I hear you guys in the back... yes the movie was supposed to happen in Cambodia, but it was filmed in Pangasinan). It is of average size and capable of cutting what ever I choose to swing it at. However, it is obviously designed as a multi-purpose tool rather than a weapon. It's heavy, too heavy to be used with any sort of finesse, and it's constrution lends itself to chopping, digging and even driving stakes and large nails. You would be at a serious disadvantage if you were to try and fight with it. The balance is terrible, as the end of the blade is very wide and heavy.

I have other bolos in my collection that I would call fighting bolos or jungle bolos.  While many of them could be used for more than just hacking flesh from your enemies.  It is quite clear, however, that they were not designed for utility. That is very evident when you pick them up the are balanced and designed to take pieces off of your enemy... big pieces. 

Bram's Presas Jungle Bolo replicas fall into the latter category. They were designed with combat in mind.

The only blade from the PI that I know of that would fit into both categories is the barong.  It's shape allows you to do all the things the farmer's bolo can do, and still affords enough balance to be used in combat. The weight is distributed differently due to its leaf shape. 

Tim Kashino


----------



## DoxN4cer

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> ... Did Prof. Presas ever do tai chi's pushing hands with you?
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> No, but a few MA people have; Dr. Barber for one.
> 
> Now that you mention it, you can see a correlation in the passing movements.
> 
> Tell us more, Dan.
> 
> 
> TK


----------



## Emptyglass

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> I think that the classification and purpose of a bolo is in it's design, and in who made it.



Tim Kashino:

This is the key point and a good one to make. Any bolo can be used to do Modern Arnis techniques. However, some will perform better than others for specific techniques due to the nature of their construction. The Presas family bolo utilized by Master Bram Frank in his video series is suitable for cutting and stabbing and is long enough to penetrate to a vital area on any human being.

Also, it has a hand guard which is a feature that would lead one to believe there is a reason for it. I believe it's there to keep a person's hand from sliding onto the blade (most machetes and bolos I have seen and none of the examples I own have this feature, their handles are shaped to keep your hand on them when using them to cut brush and other vegetation in a chopping motion) but more importantly to keep other things OFF of the hand during its use (like another blade which slides down its length).

As well as being useful for keeping the hand off of the blade on a forceful sak-sak or sungkit, the guard keeps the handle from entering the body as it is wider than the blade.

From what I can see, the Presas family bolo, is better designed for cutting flesh than chopping wood or hacking vegatables.

Rich Curren


----------



## DoxN4cer

Right on, Kapatid, toto-o.

TK


----------



## Cruentus

> Back to agriculural and fighting bolos:
> 
> I think that the classification and purpose of a bolo is in it's design, and in who made it.
> 
> In my collection, I have what I would classify as a "Farmer's Bolo". It's like the bolos seen in Apocolypse Now, the one they killed the carabaw with (... ah I hear you guys in the back... yes the movie was supposed to happen in Cambodia, but it was filmed in Pangasinan). It is of average size and capable of cutting what ever I choose to swing it at. However, it is obviously designed as a multi-purpose tool rather than a weapon. It's heavy, too heavy to be used with any sort of finesse, and it's constrution lends itself to chopping, digging and even driving stakes and large nails. You would be at a serious disadvantage if you were to try and fight with it. The balance is terrible, as the end of the blade is very wide and heavy.
> 
> I have other bolos in my collection that I would call fighting bolos or jungle bolos. While many of them could be used for more than just hacking flesh from your enemies. It is quite clear, however, that they were not designed for utility. That is very evident when you pick them up the are balanced and designed to take pieces off of your enemy... big pieces.
> 
> Bram's Presas Jungle Bolo replicas fall into the latter category. They were designed with combat in mind.
> 
> The only blade from the PI that I know of that would fit into both categories is the barong. It's shape allows you to do all the things the farmer's bolo can do, and still affords enough balance to be used in combat. The weight is distributed differently due to its leaf shape.
> 
> Tim Kashino





> This is the key point and a good one to make. Any bolo can be used to do Modern Arnis techniques. However, some will perform better than others for specific techniques due to the nature of their construction. The Presas family bolo utilized by Master Bram Frank in his video series is suitable for cutting and stabbing and is long enough to penetrate to a vital area on any human being.
> 
> Also, it has a hand guard which is a feature that would lead one to believe there is a reason for it. I believe it's there to keep a person's hand from sliding onto the blade (most machetes and bolos I have seen and none of the examples I own have this feature, their handles are shaped to keep your hand on them when using them to cut brush and other vegetation in a chopping motion) but more importantly to keep other things OFF of the hand during its use (like another blade which slides down its length).
> 
> As well as being useful for keeping the hand off of the blade on a forceful sak-sak or sungkit, the guard keeps the handle from entering the body as it is wider than the blade.
> 
> From what I can see, the Presas family bolo, is better designed for cutting flesh than chopping wood or hacking vegatables.
> 
> Rich Curren



Thanks, guys, for putting this thread back on subject. 

I did intend to present what I found out through my research about the bolo's, and to spark a discussion about the tool. I did not intend for this thread to be a game of character assasination on Bram, or on any other party.

So, thanks again for getting things back on track!

Paul


----------



## DoxN4cer

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Thanks, guys, for putting this thread back on subject.
> 
> I did intend to present what I found out through my research about the bolo's, and to spark a discussion about the tool. I did not intend for this thread to be a game of character assasination on Bram, or on any other party.
> 
> So, thanks again for getting things back on track!
> 
> Paul



You're welcome... but *somebody* had to do it.

I know you didn't intend for the thread to become a smear campaign, it was dragged it off course by some nasty little internet goblin.  Gotta watch out for those things.... they should make a bug spay for 'em.  Maybe it would be more like a fungicidal agent.

TK


----------



## Cruentus

Bart posted this in a different thread, and I thought it applied well here...



> I don't know Bram Frank from Adam. But as a Tagalog speaker I do know that "bolong gubat" sounds pretty weird and kind of off. That's the direct translation of "jungle bolo". In my experience among the lay person a bolo is a bolo is a bolo. It's just as good for chopping coconuts as chicken heads. The differences are only in the manufacturer and the person using it. Filipinos think of a bolo much like Americans think of a hammer. It's a tool that almost everybody has around the house. The kids can't use it till there a certain age. And everybody accepts that it could be and has been used as a weapon. But to me "jungle bolo" has the same ring to it as "forest hammer". It's not too weird, but it makes just as much sense.
> 
> So my suspicion is that the term is used by a small minority of people in one part of Negros or that GM Presas coined the term himself and passed it on to Bram and others. Maybe "jungle bolo" sounds better in Bisaya than Tagalog. I concede that bolo could be used as a general term and that for instance a "pinuti" would be a type of bolo. Also, just because the term strikes me as odd, doesn't mean that the techniques won't work and that it's not legit blade work. I don't favor the blade anyway and I haven't seen the DVD's, so I don't know. People I respect seem to think it's good stuff and without looking at it myself, I'm not going to pass judgement. It's only the term that I have reservations about.
> 
> Just my two cents on the matter.



My feeling is that Bram just decided to call his product "Presas fighting jungle bolo." I see no evidence of there being a linguistic distinction between "fighting bolo" and "agricultural bolo" or "Jungle bolo" vs. "celery chopping bolo" or any such thing. The only distinctions that are made linguistically are tusok and tabak as Andyz mentioned. It is important to note here that having a name for every specific thing is more of a western/american thing. That's why we have stuff like, "parring knives, skinning knives, butter knives, steak knives, chef's knives, etc." Linguistically, distinctions often aren't made in other cultures in the same manner. A knife is a knife...a bolo is a bolo, regardless of design and use.

However, in America we often make linguistic distinctions to describe things. So, Bram labeling his product "Jungle fighting bolo" is a method of describing his product. There is nothing wrong with Bram making this distinction, considering that if you said "bolo" to most americans, they might wonder why you'd fight with a old western style neck-tie anyways. Besides, he was clear that it is just his name for his product, and not an actual filipino term or distinction.

Now, with that, just because there is no language distinction for something in a specific culture, this does not mean that things weren't designed for a purpose in mind. I think that a bolo with a slender clip pointed tip, a particular balance, and a guard to protect the hand from another blade was probably made with the purpose of self defense in mind.

 :ultracool


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## arnisandyz

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Bart posted this in a different thread, and I thought it applied well here...



from the newspaper stories thread i posted here http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15701&highlight=jungle+bolo

The writer makes reference to a "jungle bolo".  Why didn't just say bolo?keep in mind the audience for these articles are Filipinos most of which are in the cities. Possibly the writer was making reference to "jungle bolo" as local color as there is a class distinction between "city folk and rural people. Most people living in the city would have no use for such a tool, when in rural (or jungle) areas it is very common.

could it possibly be Mr Bram Frank is also using the term "Jungle bolo" as a marketing tool to add some mystique to the name. it being marketed to Westerners and all?  I'm not saying this is wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite smart to do so.


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## Emptyglass

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> could it possibly be Mr Bram Frank is also using the term "Jungle bolo" as a marketing tool to add some mystique to the name. it being marketed to Westerners and all?  I'm not saying this is wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite smart to do so.



Hello:

Having met Senior Master Bram Frank and from conversing with him on an irregular basis I would think this is not the case. He doesn't tend to need or want to embellish anything. Just the straight facts. More likely, this is what he was told it was called (although having watched the DVDs more than once I'm still not sure he ever calls it a "jungle bolo". Presas bolo yes. I will watch again tonight. That term may have been put forth in the tangle of posts and e-mails that have occurred since the release of the video.) by Grandmaster Remy Presas. So that is the name he uses.

If you like, ask him yourself via the CSSDSC website (worth checking out by anyone interested in Modern Arnis by the way: http://www.cssdsc.com). I'm sure he would be happy to give you an answer as he is a very personable fellow.

One question though, other than myself and Senior Master Dan Anderson who have reviewed them, has anyone else purchased and watched these videos that are generating so much comment? Again, I highly recommend them and think they can show anyone interested in Modern Arnis (or FMA in general for that matter) some good material.

Rich Curren


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## Emptyglass

Having reviewed the DVDs again, it is Senior Master Bram Frank who uses the term Presas jungle bolo. He uses it in reference to the idea of this discussion. That some bolos are better suited for agriculture and others are better (by the nature of their design) for cutting flesh. It is his opinion that the Presas jungle bolo design falls into this category. However both <u>can</u> be used for either purpose, just like any other knife.


Rich Curren


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Did Prof. Presas ever do tai chi's pushing hands with you?


Yes-

At the 2nd Buffalo Modern Arnis camp Remy did demonstrate a pushing hands drill from trapping hands.

 :asian:


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## leomel pino

actually a fighting bolo is quite longer than the farming one, and a fighting bolo is also called as pinuti in our language but often times the pinuti is not usually used for fighting but also for agricultural use like cutting trees for clearing the field.


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