# Practicing different applications



## skribs (May 4, 2018)

One of the things I struggle with is the broad spectrum of the curriculum at my school.  The way I see it, there are four reasons people take martial arts:  wellness, expression, competition, and survival.  At our school, we cover a lot of ground, with expression coming in the form of our forms and our demonstration team, competition coming in the form of our sparring club and tournaments, and then survival as part of our self defense training.

The issue that comes up, and I've seen it trip up others as well, is that there is a difference in technique with each application.  For example:


A *sparring *roundhouse kick is done with a bit of a bounce, with the elbow pulled back as counterbalance for extra speed.  A *self defense* roundhouse kick is usually a bit lower, to the gut or the leg, and there's a strong follow-through to generate additional power.  A *demonstration *roundhouse is slower and more controlled.  It is done more upright, and the kick is held at the point of extension for a brief period of time to display the beauty and control in the kick.
A *sparring* fighting stance is upright and you bounce on the toes.  A *self defense* stance is usually deeper rooted for extra power.  A *demonstration *stance is even  more exaggerated as a display of balance and flexibility.
A *sparring *spinning hook kick is a quick whip-like motion which should involve very little leg extension until the moment of impact.  A *self defense *spinning hook kick is probably a bad idea, but if you are going to use it, you want to get a little bit more swing and potentially use your heel instead of the ball of your foot, as the goal is to cause maximum damage as opposed to quickest point.  A *demonstration* spinning hook kick is going to be more of a steady motion, which is slower, but prettier.
There's one student of mine who is an insanely fast learner.  She is on my demonstration team but also in my sparring club.  And every sparring club I'd remind her to do sparring kicks, not demo kicks.  Every demo team practice I'd remind her to do demo kicks, not sparring kicks.

On the other hand, I find that isolating the training can sometimes be helpful.  For example, sparring helps make my kicks faster, self defense training helps make my kicks stronger, and demonstration training works on my balance and my foundations of the technique.

What do you guys think?  Do you find that training for multiple applications can split your focus?  Or do you find that it helps build a well-rounded technique?


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## Dirty Dog (May 4, 2018)

I think it splits your focus, but not in an insurmountable way.


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## skribs (May 4, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it splits your focus, but not in an insurmountable way.



So if I practice 2 hours a week it's a problem, but if I practice 10 hours a week it's a boon?


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## Dirty Dog (May 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> So if I practice 2 hours a week it's a problem, but if I practice 10 hours a week it's a boon?



Maybe. Maybe not. But if you practice 2 hours a week, it'll take you a lot more weeks to learn all of the applications.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> One of the things I struggle with is the broad spectrum of the curriculum at my school.  The way I see it, there are four reasons people take martial arts:  wellness, expression, competition, and survival.  At our school, we cover a lot of ground, with expression coming in the form of our forms and our demonstration team, competition coming in the form of our sparring club and tournaments, and then survival as part of our self defense training.
> 
> The issue that comes up, and I've seen it trip up others as well, is that there is a difference in technique with each application.  For example:
> 
> ...


It depends how you train it, IMO. If those 3 roundhouse kicks are taught as different kicks, that's a problem for learning. If they are taught as different uses of the same kick, there's not much of an issue. I use my side kick differently when sparring, doing forms, and kicking a heavy bag. It's all the same kick, but I use it differently because there's a change in circumstances (don't want to hurt sparring opponent, no resistance in forms, bag doesn't care). I could teach those as different kicks, making more changes for each context, but that's an unnecessary learning load. Now, I do think if you have a single focus, you're likely to get better at that focus than if your focus is split (I don't care if the side kick in forms looks nice - I'm trying to keep it balanced and close to what I'd use in sparring). But if splitting your focus keeps you more interested in training, then it's probably a net benefit. It's all about the balance.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> So if I practice 2 hours a week it's a problem, but if I practice 10 hours a week it's a boon?


If having multiple reasons for the kick leads you to more hours of practice, it's a boon.


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## drop bear (May 4, 2018)

Every new position you are doing a new kick. So firing a quick popping style kick then following with a hard kick sets people up.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

I have mixed feelings on this.  Being able to preform with different dynamics and variation, will in the long run make you a better martial artist.  But for pure self defense sub division of mechanics is not good.  It prevents  neuro pathway growth and automation of the desired action. The action will never really be an automatic response.


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## pdg (May 5, 2018)

My take on it, feel free to disagree 

Nothing is really truly automatic with the human body. Some things are preinstalled, but can be edited later.

Breathing and heartbeat - every breath and every beat rely on being told to happen, but you can override these 'automatic' functions. You can hold your breath and some people have a variable capacity to intentionally alter their cardiac rhythm.

Flinch response to pain - someone touches you with something hot and you flinch to pull away. I can override that (to a certain extent) because if when welding I get a bit of spatter fall on my arm I can essentially ignore it.

Everything else is a calculated response.

A fist is heading toward your face so your brain looks at the variables it knows, chooses a course of action and executes the programme.

The preinstalled variables are move or cover/block.

A lot of people will freeze initially while their brain is running simulations and get punched.

With training, the amount of simulation variables is reduced (because you know what's happening) so the response time is decreased. It's not that any response has become automatic, it's that your brain has been reprogrammed to be more efficient.

That's what training achieves - not automation but reduction of listed possibilities. It's quicker to choose between 2 options than between 20. It becomes so fast that it appears automatic (your conscious thought process is overridden by your restricted variable difference engine so you don't notice).

The time it appears most like being automatic is when you drill a specific scenario over and over - say a straight punch. You've set your programme to have a choice of 1 response. It's instant.

Then someone throws a hook - you get punched... Your brain either recognises a punch and initiates the response it knows (which may not work) or it doesn't recognise a hook as being a punch so it resets to default and starts running scenarios and you freeze.

The saying something like "fear not the man who has practiced 1000 attacks once, but the man who has practiced one attack 1000 times" falls down with this.

Your brain is quite clever, it won't take long to adjust to the new variable.

If someone relies on one thing to the exclusion of all else, they become easy to overcome as soon as their pattern is recognised.


Back to the OP topic, that's why I don't think they are 3 separate kicks.

If you learn the basic movement first, then you can develop that with speed for sparring/fighting.

Kata/pattern and/or demonstration are the secondary applications, and they give time to concentrate on the mechanics of the movement.

Using all of the applications in tandem helps all the areas - better understanding of how it really works so more realistic demonstration, and making it pretty for demo improves the form in 'fight mode'.


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## Earl Weiss (May 5, 2018)

IMO one of the reasons techniques are structured as they are is they provide a "Center Point" along a spectrum (Or as in a recent article center of a sphere)  which make it easier to morph the technique along the spectrum (or to any point inside the sphere radiating outward)  as needed for sparring, self defense, breaking, etc.  as opposed to practicing a technique which might be at one end of the spectrum (or far from the center f the sphere) and morphing it to a point much further away. (Hope that makes sense).


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I have mixed feelings on this.  Being able to preform with different dynamics and variation, will in the long run make you a better martial artist.  But for pure self defense sub division of mechanics is not good.  It prevents  neuro pathway growth and automation of the desired action. The action will never really be an automatic response.


Explain, please, because I don't think I agree, but I might be misunderstanding your point.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> My take on it, feel free to disagree
> 
> Nothing is really truly automatic with the human body. Some things are preinstalled, but can be edited later.
> 
> ...


While I agree that the issue is largely (using the psych terms) one of generalization (recognizing something new as fitting into an existing paradigm) and distinction (being able to differentiate between similar situations), I do think there are "variations" that aren't really variations, but something new. If someone practices a side kick for a forms competition, and the approach is to top to the step, raise halfway into chamber, then ultra-slowly complete the chamber, pivot 1/4 turn, slowly extend the kicking leg, quick partial retraction and second slow "kick", then retract and continue the form....that has little mechanically to do with an actual kick. Uber-slow "kicks" aren't firing the same muscles in the same way. They put much more emphasis on balance muscles (the real value of this practice, IMO) and the support muscles that hold the leg up. I'm not sure there's much value added to the actual kicking technique (except the stress to the balance muscles), and if this were practiced as much as an actual kick, I could see that causing some neural confusion that interferes with proper kicking technique. That's an extreme example, but I think it gets to the point of the OP.


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## pdg (May 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> While I agree that the issue is largely (using the psych terms) one of generalization (recognizing something new as fitting into an existing paradigm) and distinction (being able to differentiate between similar situations), I do think there are "variations" that aren't really variations, but something new. If someone practices a side kick for a forms competition, and the approach is to top to the step, raise halfway into chamber, then ultra-slowly complete the chamber, pivot 1/4 turn, slowly extend the kicking leg, quick partial retraction and second slow "kick", then retract and continue the form....that has little mechanically to do with an actual kick. Uber-slow "kicks" aren't firing the same muscles in the same way. They put much more emphasis on balance muscles (the real value of this practice, IMO) and the support muscles that hold the leg up. I'm not sure there's much value added to the actual kicking technique (except the stress to the balance muscles), and if this were practiced as much as an actual kick, I could see that causing some neural confusion that interferes with proper kicking technique. That's an extreme example, but I think it gets to the point of the OP.



Yes and no I think 

The body is a master of compensation, performing a kick in ultra slomo uses the same muscles (but as you said, fires differently) and commits the end point.

If your goal then is to do it fast to the same end point (a to b) "nature will find a way" and that way is invariably the easiest.

I consider it much the same as how practicing to balance on one leg in a variety of positions helps improve stability on two legs.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes and no I think
> 
> The body is a master of compensation, performing a kick in ultra slomo uses the same muscles (but as you said, fires differently) and commits the end point.
> 
> ...


But balancing on one leg actually uses the same muscles that leg will use (with slightly different emphasis) when standing on both legs. When slowly extending a leg in a side kick, there's a heavy emphasis on the hip muscles that raise the leg (and hold it in place), and very little emphasis on the muscles that move the leg outward and control the linear strike direction. There is definitely benefit to the exercise, but if done enough, it's probably a net interference with good technique and likely to ingrain patterns that create much more of a push than a kick.


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## pdg (May 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> But balancing on one leg actually uses the same muscles that leg will use (with slightly different emphasis) when standing on both legs. When slowly extending a leg in a side kick, there's a heavy emphasis on the hip muscles that raise the leg (and hold it in place), and very little emphasis on the muscles that move the leg outward and control the linear strike direction. There is definitely benefit to the exercise, but if done enough, it's probably a net interference with good technique and likely to ingrain patterns that create much more of a push than a kick.



But... Static balance fires and reacts differently to dynamic balance - it's the brain's ability to adapt responses to suit the situation that means being better at standing on one leg usually means you're better at (say) jumping from post to post.

As for any of this, I can only really speak of what I think I've found beneficial and how.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with the kick scenario - if you just lift your leg and almost let it drift into place (which I must say, I've seen a fair few do).

When I do a slow side kick I force the motion, using the opposing muscles to resist the movement and keep tension throughout - it's quite possible I'm a bit weird in that when I go full speed I just switch off the resistance.

While I don't think it's possible to develop a decent fast kick by exclusively practicing slowly and just expecting it to work, I do think your slow practice would have to outnumber your fast practice by a very significant margin to be detrimental.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

Why Practice Makes Perfect: How to Rewire Your Brain for Performance

the body action happens when electrical signals are sent down a chain of neurons through the axons.  myelin around the axon increases the speed and strength of the signals.  practice generates myelinated pathways.  variation creates multiple pathways, some of which will be undesirable.  more pathways means slower response times or incorrect responses due to undesirable pathways being stronger.  this is why i said kicks with different mechanics would be undesirable.

Procedural Memory: Definition and Examples

"the brain retains procedural memory (how to to stuff) but it is not a fixed location or process.  if the action is new it takes more activity from certain areas to "learn" the firing pattern.  but as the action is set in stone the activated location of the brain moves when doing the action.  it takes less and less frontal cortex to recall and preform the action.  with practice it will become an unconscious action.  similar to putting your foot on the brake of your car.



pdg said:


> Everything else is a calculated response.
> 
> A fist is heading toward your face so your brain looks at the variables it knows, chooses a course of action and executes the programme.


this statement implies to me that all self defense actions are processed in the frontal cortex.  i disagree.
95 percent of brain activity is beyond our conscious awareness

the bulk of "threat recognition and response" from the amygdala is sub conscious.  add to that the functional degradation of frontal cortex under the chemical dump of fear.  any response that requires the frontal cortex to process is going to be slow and often a bad emotional response.

im getting a little sidetracked sorry...

imagine this,
you are driving a newly designed electric car.  the engine throttle is controlled by your right hand,  there are three different brake foot pedals.  they all function in different ways.. one slows the car and reduces speeds for normal around town travel, another pedal stops the car but in a slow gradual way mostly used for traffic signals and other that holds the car in one spot while the engine idles.  imagine driving down the road and a child runs in front of your car.  what is the likely hood of you pressing the correct foot pedal?  what is the likely hood of you tensing your body, pressing a pedal while also squeezing the throttle?
now think back to all the times you had to stomp on your normal car brake.  it was sub conscious,  it was fast and it was reliable because there was only one choice that was embedded into the deep procedural memory that does not get processed by the frontal cortex.  it was automatic.  the car was also designed properly, having to take your foot off the throttle to apply the brake.  good martial technique also needs to be designed to account for the human factor.
   if the goal is self defense, practicing non functional martial arts is a waste of good neurons..


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

something to think about ..
the actions you practice are effected by the environment in which you practiced the skill.
the environment shapes the way you learn the skills and that is encoded into your procedural memory.
if your practice is devoid of violent behaviors, when you are confronted with it, the violence will be outside of your procedural and representational memory.  the complexity of responding to a violent attack will overwhelm your system and shut down.  it is only when you are actually facing a violent encounter that you will realize your experience and understanding is unsatisfactory to deal with it.


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## pdg (May 5, 2018)

I'm only quoting a portion for efficacy, but there's probably references to other parts...



hoshin1600 said:


> this statement implies to me that all self defense actions are processed in the frontal cortex.



No, well I think no 

I don't know enough about the different areas of the brain to to argue either way, unless I make an assumption based on the surrounding parts of your post.

Frontal cortex is the conscious decision making part, right? The bit where you actually know what you're thinking and weigh variables to reach a conclusion or response.

The act of training (imo) bypasses the use of that - the thing that people call automatic. The subconscious (as you said).

Only it's not automatic, there's still a decision making process going on, it's just that you're not aware.

Let's expand on your car analogy a little here.

I drive a car, normal (for me) right hand drive with a manual transmission.

Everything is "automatic" in my head, only it's not. Everything is a response to known variables.

I can get out of that car into another and drive it. Sometimes there are small differences - like the direction indicator stalk is the other side of the steering wheel - sometimes there are large differences - like an automatic transmission, or it being left hand drive. I never find myself searching for a non existent clutch pedal (and I've only ever once punched the door while reaching for the gearstick )

Another difference too - a friend of mine a while ago had a car that was modified with hand controls (paddles behind the steering wheel for throttle and brake) because of a congenital leg deformation - I drove that a few times.

If the actions of driving are truly automatic, I'd have a hard time switching randomly between cars.

Add in that I also ride a bicycle - I never try to brake with my foot...

Also, I ride a motorcycle - hand throttle, right hand front (main) brake, left hand clutch, right foot rear (secondary) brake, left foot gear shift.

Then there's the fact that a few of the bikes I've had were old British bikes, so the foot brake and gear shift were switched...

One bike I rode for a short time had the throttle on the left (an old Indian).

Another bike I owned had a foot clutch and left hand gearshift.

So, with these (and other) variables I have multiple pathways to respond to the hypothetical child running out into the street - they don't affect the speed of my responses though.

So your car with a hand throttle and 3 brake pedals? Bring it on, no worries 


(I have more, but textwall)


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## pdg (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> something to think about ..
> the actions you practice are effected by the environment in which you practiced the skill.
> the environment shapes the way you learn the skills and that is encoded into your procedural memory.
> if your practice is devoid of violent behaviors, when you are confronted with it, the violence will be outside of your procedural and representational memory.  the complexity of responding to a violent attack will overwhelm your system and shut down.  it is only when you are actually facing a violent encounter that you will realize your experience and understanding is unsatisfactory to deal with it.



Yes, because you haven't programmed the choices for that environment.

Because you haven't got the subconscious a/b/c reactions in place it hands the decision back over to the much slower conscious process to run simulations.

Which is essentially part of what I was getting at.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> Frontal cortex is the conscious decision making part, right? The bit where you actually know what you're thinking and weigh variables to reach a conclusion or response.
> 
> The act of training (imo) bypasses the use of that - the thing that people call automatic. The subconscious (as you said).
> 
> Only it's not automatic, there's still a decision making process going on, it's just that you're not aware.



after reading your entire post maybe i should start by saying in a fight there will be some aspects that are conscious and others that will be sub conscious.  just like your switching between a kawasaki and an old triumph or Indian. some aspects like balance are sub conscious. you do not need to think about how to actually balance and ride the motorcycle.  while shifting the gears will engage the frontal cortex because of the variation and complexity but you do not need the full attention of the cerebellum to coordinate the action the way a new rider would because of prior experience.

i have experienced my own automated reactions where i without conscious thought,  caught a hand that was grabbing at me.  to your description there might have been a sub conscious decision to catch and grab the hand rather than punch the person in the face.  but what about the timing of the grab, the correct placement of my thumb on their hand, the subtle turn of my body and shifting of my weight in a sub conscious preparation for a wrist throw.  these small details are all processed by the procedural memory.  these details are not regulated by any decision making process either conscious or subconscious.
the OP mentioned different ways of kicking that as i read it seemed to me as different mechanics. one where the body counter balances and an other where the weight goes into the kick. do you get to decide which one you use?  let go from macro to micro level.. do you get to decide your emotional reaction to an attack? do you decide on where the weight is distributed on your supporting  foot?  the angle of tilt in your hips?  
to me anything that is not logically thought about and consciously decided is automatic.  Neuroscientists are increasingly finding there are less decisions then we thought , in fact there may be no such thing as free will at all.  but thats a different topic.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> But... Static balance fires and reacts differently to dynamic balance - it's the brain's ability to adapt responses to suit the situation that means being better at standing on one leg usually means you're better at (say) jumping from post to post.
> 
> As for any of this, I can only really speak of what I think I've found beneficial and how.
> 
> ...


That's the point - you're with me on this. A slow kick that's still a kick doesn't have the same issue as a slow kick that's really not a kick anymore.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Why Practice Makes Perfect: How to Rewire Your Brain for Performance
> 
> the body action happens when electrical signals are sent down a chain of neurons through the axons.  myelin around the axon increases the speed and strength of the signals.  practice generates myelinated pathways.  variation creates multiple pathways, some of which will be undesirable.  more pathways means slower response times or incorrect responses due to undesirable pathways being stronger.  this is why i said kicks with different mechanics would be undesirable.
> 
> ...


Using your driving analogy, I think we can see it's a more complex answer. I love to drive a manual transmission car. In emergencies, I've never confused the clutch and accelerator pedals. I've also never (in an emergency) accidentally shifted into the wrong gear (oddly, I've done it when it wasn't an emergency - perhaps too much conscious involvement). On a motorcycle, I've never shifted instead of braking (the feet, in case you're not familiar), nor have I ever accidentally braked when I meant to clutch or accelerated when braking (all stuff with hands).

Oddly, after not driving a manual transmission car for a few years (and having a motorcycle as my primary transport), when driving a friend's manual car, I found myself turning on the turn signal at every shift (left hand needed to do its job).


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## pdg (May 5, 2018)

Chopping up your post a bit, (hopefully) not to cause misinterpretation, but to fit with my thought flow...



hoshin1600 said:


> to me anything that is not logically thought about and consciously decided is automatic.  Neuroscientists are increasingly finding there are less decisions then we thought , in fact there may be no such thing as free will at all.  but thats a different topic.



It would appear to me that the bulk of our 'disagreement' is one of semantics - what you term automatic I view as subconscious decision making.

***

Conscious decision making (what shall I have for lunch?) is "free will", subconscious decision making you play no active part in while it's in progress (i.e. past the programming stage).



hoshin1600 said:


> after reading your entire post maybe i should start by saying in a fight there will be some aspects that are conscious and others that will be sub conscious.  just like your switching between a kawasaki and an old triumph or Indian. some aspects like balance are sub conscious. you do not need to think about how to actually balance and ride the motorcycle.  while shifting the gears will engage the frontal cortex because of the variation and complexity but you do not need the full attention of the cerebellum to coordinate the action the way a new rider would because of prior experience.



A new rider would be in the programming stage, they're testing actions and reactions on a fairly conscious level. Taking someone with little experience and changing something (swapping the gearshift and brake for instance) disrupts the programming of the subconscious decision making process - those variables aren't stored so trying to swap them about causes confusion and passes back to the conscious.

In my case, instead of having to process "how do I stop?" which is complex, all I have to do is subconsciously decide between "press left foot" or "press right foot", which is simple.



hoshin1600 said:


> i have experienced my own automated reactions where i without conscious thought,  caught a hand that was grabbing at me.  to your description there might have been a sub conscious decision to catch and grab the hand rather than punch the person in the face.  but what about the timing of the grab, the correct placement of my thumb on their hand, the subtle turn of my body and shifting of my weight in a sub conscious preparation for a wrist throw.  these small details are all processed by the procedural memory.  these details are not regulated by any decision making process either conscious or subconscious.



I contend there was a decision made, with or without your conscious intervention.

A hand was grabbing at you - your brain made the decision to catch it. It could have diverted it instead, but your programming made a catch have the higher probability of ongoing success.

This is situational too - when I'm sparring someone throws a punch and I'll usually try to divert it, so the decision was taken to time my response to go behind their glove and act on their forearm.

It has happened where I've been in "sparring mode" but between rounds and someone threw a glove - the decision was taken without my intervention to catch instead of block/divert. I didn't consciously register there wasn't a person attached to that glove until it was in my hands. If it was truly automatic with no processing of surrounding information variables why didn't I try to divert it? After all, it was glove shaped and heading toward me...



hoshin1600 said:


> the OP mentioned different ways of kicking that as i read it seemed to me as different mechanics. one where the body counter balances and an other where the weight goes into the kick. do you get to decide which one you use?  let go from macro to micro level.. do you get to decide your emotional reaction to an attack? do you decide on where the weight is distributed on your supporting  foot?  the angle of tilt in your hips?



The first few times you're in the situation you have to fairly consciously decide what your response is.

You don't get to decide the emotional aspect because that's been getting programmed (and preinstall information modified) since birth.

However, once you've started "getting used to it" the list of possible responses shrinks as you progress. You programme what works and discard (or lower priority of) what doesn't.

There's still a decision to be made though - do you block and counter/divert and move then counter/avoid and continue until your next opportunity? Consciously, you couldn't decide fast enough...

And back to the emotional response - you don't actively decide, but you can modify the programme. You can progressively make that situation trigger less fear (which in itself hinders decisions, including subconscious ones) and allow your subconscious to go with the flow.



***Edit: had a thought - it's like an automatic transmission in a car.

It's not really automatic - it's a series of predetermined decisions based on variables (engine speed, road speed, load).


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Using your driving analogy, I think we can see it's a more complex answer. I love to drive a manual transmission car. In emergencies, I've never confused the clutch and accelerator pedals. I've also never (in an emergency) accidentally shifted into the wrong gear (oddly, I've done it when it wasn't an emergency - perhaps too much conscious involvement). On a motorcycle, I've never shifted instead of braking (the feet, in case you're not familiar), nor have I ever accidentally braked when I meant to clutch or accelerated when braking (all stuff with hands).
> 
> Oddly, after not driving a manual transmission car for a few years (and having a motorcycle as my primary transport), when driving a friend's manual car, I found myself turning on the turn signal at every shift (left hand needed to do its job).



your brain knows the function somehow between a brake and a shifter of a motorcycle and a clutch and brake in the car. probably by location.  in my example all three pedals were brakes but used for different kinds of braking.  that adds a level of complexity to it.  
as far as applying the throttle accidentally while braking on a motorcycle ,,,yes ive done it.  there are lots of Youtube videos of people doing it. but it is primarily with inexperienced riders (as was i was when i did it,) thus the need for the engagement of the cerebellum to be active in processing and monitoring guiding the sequence of actions. but after you get it you got it.


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## drop bear (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I have mixed feelings on this.  Being able to preform with different dynamics and variation, will in the long run make you a better martial artist.  But for pure self defense sub division of mechanics is not good.  It prevents  neuro pathway growth and automation of the desired action. The action will never really be an automatic response.



Automatic response is detrimental to self defence. It is detrimental to a lot of top end live activities. And is generally wrongly focused on. It goes with this over focus on technique.

Mental elasticity is more applicable.

So if I had to run from point A to point B but it was through a house. So maybe I have to jump over a fence run up some stairs kick a door down climb out a window or whatever.

I would not employ an automatic response. I would be problem solving.

Even if I had trained to solve those problems I would still be adjusting dependent on the live conditions at the time.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> I contend there was a decision made, with or without your conscious intervention.


while i am enjoying the dialog,  i have lost the direction and point of the conversation.  

i would say that a decision of sorts is being made on certain things as you say, but some are made subconsciously on an electrical circuit level that we have no conscious control over at the time that circuit was triggered.  the decision is based on a path of least resistance unless the frontal cortex tells the circuit to do "the harder thing". and this was my point from the start that practicing non functional self defense moves could ...could ,,,, increase the myelin on those axons that would trigger the non desired kata kick rather than a self defense kick due to it being the path of least resistance.


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## drop bear (May 5, 2018)

Sorry there is a simpler way to put this.

A fight isn't a routine. It is a puzzle.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Automatic response is detrimental to self defence. It is detrimental to a lot of top end live activities. And is generally wrongly focused on. It goes with this over focus on technique.
> 
> Mental elasticity is more applicable.
> 
> ...



your focused on gross motor actions like how to react to a punch.  that really wasnt were i was going with this conversation but people keep thinking i am or at least bringing it back to that level.. i am talking more about things like the automatic way we make a fist.    i mentioned where i place my thumb on a persons hand for a wrist throw/ lock.   this is the automation i am talking about.  thats why i keep mentioning the MECHANICS  of a kick.  maybe if i say the method of power generation.


----------



## pdg (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> while i am enjoying the dialog, i have lost the direction and point of the conversation.



I think the real direction was lost a fair few posts back 



hoshin1600 said:


> i would say that a decision of sorts is being made on certain things as you say, but some are made subconsciously on an electrical circuit level that we have no conscious control over at the time that circuit was triggered. the decision is based on a path of least resistance unless the frontal cortex tells the circuit to do "the harder thing". and this was my point from the start that practicing non functional self defense moves could ...could ,,,, increase the myelin on those axons that would trigger the non desired kata kick rather than a self defense kick due to it being the path of least resistance.



Ah, there's the direction - I knew it was around somewhere 

That harks back to the jist of a comment I made earlier, where I actively try to make the path of least resistance the 'effective' version (in fact, I've only very recently realised I've been doing that).

By keeping intensity and tension in my 'performance' actions, the "throw it hard" version is the easier option to subconsciously decide upon.


----------



## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

let me put a visual to my thoughts.. if you practice your martial art like this 90 % of the time ,,,,as amazing as it is. if you only kick the bag a few times every once in a while...what do you think is going to happen when you need to defend yourself?


----------



## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> let me put a visual to my thoughts.. if you practice your martial art like this 90 % of the time ,,,,as amazing as it is. if you only kick the bag a few times every once in a while...what do you think is going to happen when you need to defend yourself?



the answer GYM KATA


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## pdg (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> your focused on gross motor actions like how to react to a punch.  that really wasnt were i was going with this conversation but people keep thinking i am or at least bringing it back to that level.. i am talking more about things like the automatic way we make a fist.    i mentioned where i place my thumb on a persons hand for a wrist throw/ lock.   this is the automation i am talking about.  thats why i keep mentioning the MECHANICS  of a kick.  maybe if i say the method of power generation.



Those are also things where the programme sometimes needs modifying so the decision can be made.

Tell a kid to make a fist - a lot of times they'll wrap their fingers around their thumb (or like my wife did, point their thumb straight out forwards). That 'automatic' response (the brain's decision of how to place digits) needs changing.


----------



## pdg (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> let me put a visual to my thoughts.. if you practice your martial art like this 90 % of the time ,,,,as amazing as it is. if you only kick the bag a few times every once in a while...what do you think is going to happen when you need to defend yourself?



That would be a case of what I said earlier, where the 'wrong' sort of practice becomes detrimental because it outweighs the 'correct' practice by a significant margin.


----------



## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> Those are also things where the programme sometimes needs modifying so the decision can be made.
> 
> Tell a kid to make a fist - a lot of times they'll wrap their fingers around their thumb (or like my wife did, point their thumb straight out forwards). That 'automatic' response (the brain's decision of how to place digits) needs changing.


YES but that what i was saying ...when you got it you got it.   this is the skill part and the procedural memory is the "how to"  you dont have to think about it anymore.


----------



## pdg (May 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> YES but that what i was saying ...when you got it you got it.   this is the skill part and the procedural memory is the "how to"  you dont have to think about it anymore.



Procedural memory = list of weighted variables applicable to subconscious decision making 


Effectively, we seem to be kind of on the same page (but because this is a text based conversation and I tend to blather on it's taken hours to get there).

The possible difference is that I consider what DB termed mental elasticity can also be part of what you call automatic response.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Automatic response is detrimental to self defence. It is detrimental to a lot of top end live activities. And is generally wrongly focused on. It goes with this over focus on technique.
> 
> Mental elasticity is more applicable.
> 
> ...


Those adjustments are not at the fully conscious level, though. The example I’d use is dribbling downfield on a football pitch (I feel all British saying that) toward a pair of defenders. You might choose an approach consciously, but not the shifts and dodges you use to get past them.


----------



## skribs (May 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes and no I think
> 
> The body is a master of compensation, performing a kick in ultra slomo uses the same muscles (but as you said, fires differently) and commits the end point.
> 
> ...



There's different muscles working, though.  For example, in a practical side kick, the power is going to come from the extension, which is going to be in extending your leg.  The muscles there are primarily going to be in your butt and thighs, and the power is going go straight through your leg.  The direction of force is side-to-side, from your body through your foot.

In holding a side kick, you're not working on the extension, but on carrying the load.  The muscles that will be engaged here are the muscles in your hip and your lateral abdominal muscles, and the strain is going to be to maintain the height of the kick.  The direction of the force is up-and-down, a fight against gravity.

There's a difference in flexibility in static vs. dynamic stretching.  There's a difference in doing a bench press vs. holding a weight straight out in front of you.  There's a difference in what muscles are worked and how they are worked in a slow kick vs. a fast kick.


----------



## pdg (May 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> There's different muscles working, though.  For example, in a practical side kick, the power is going to come from the extension, which is going to be in extending your leg.  The muscles there are primarily going to be in your butt and thighs, and the power is going go straight through your leg.  The direction of force is side-to-side, from your body through your foot.
> 
> In holding a side kick, you're not working on the extension, but on carrying the load.  The muscles that will be engaged here are the muscles in your hip and your lateral abdominal muscles, and the strain is going to be to maintain the height of the kick.  The direction of the force is up-and-down, a fight against gravity.
> 
> There's a difference in flexibility in static vs. dynamic stretching.  There's a difference in doing a bench press vs. holding a weight straight out in front of you.  There's a difference in what muscles are worked and how they are worked in a slow kick vs. a fast kick.



I didn't say holding, I said slow motion under self imposed tension during extension. So, you are working on extension (and also on retarding that extension, which in the case of a side kick works on the bits you use for a hook kick).

You still need to lift your leg up to the side to do a fast side kick too. Doing it slowly helps increase height and accuracy for your fast ones.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I didn't say holding, I said slow motion under self imposed tension during extension. So, you are working on extension (and also on retarding that extension, which in the case of a side kick works on the bits you use for a hook kick).
> 
> You still need to lift your leg up to the side to do a fast side kick too. Doing it slowly helps increase height and accuracy for your fast ones.


If you had my (lack of) flexibility, you might see a bit more of our point on this. On a slow kick, I cannot get a round kick much to waist level. In application, I can comfortably kick to just above 5.5 feet (my own head height).


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## pdg (May 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If you had my (lack of) flexibility, you might see a bit more of our point on this. On a slow kick, I cannot get a round kick much to waist level. In application, I can comfortably kick to just above 5.5 feet (my own head height).



I can kick higher dynamically than slowly too, that's (probably) a given for everyone isn't it?

I do have a smaller differential than you describe for yourself though - slowly I can get to approx nipple height with a side kick, shoulder to neck with turning kick (roundhouse). Dynamically, I can just clear my own height (5'11" ish) with either.

Where I do have the same sort of differential to you is to the front - for a downward kick (axe kick?) I can get around waist height slowly, but face height with some speed involved...

I'd like a few more inches on the height going fast though, so I'm doing more work on the slow - and, for me, it's helping.


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## skribs (May 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I didn't say holding, I said slow motion under self imposed tension during extension. So, you are working on extension (and also on retarding that extension, which in the case of a side kick works on the bits you use for a hook kick).
> 
> You still need to lift your leg up to the side to do a fast side kick too. Doing it slowly helps increase height and accuracy for your fast ones.



But when you do it slower, you use less force for the extension and more force to hold your leg up, even if it's not as much of a difference as holding your leg out.

It can be a useful practice, but it's not building more muscle in that direction.


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## dvcochran (May 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It depends how you train it, IMO. If those 3 roundhouse kicks are taught as different kicks, that's a problem for learning. If they are taught as different uses of the same kick, there's not much of an issue. I use my side kick differently when sparring, doing forms, and kicking a heavy bag. It's all the same kick, but I use it differently because there's a change in circumstances (don't want to hurt sparring opponent, no resistance in forms, bag doesn't care). I could teach those as different kicks, making more changes for each context, but that's an unnecessary learning load. Now, I do think if you have a single focus, you're likely to get better at that focus than if your focus is split (I don't care if the side kick in forms looks nice - I'm trying to keep it balanced and close to what I'd use in sparring). But if splitting your focus keeps you more interested in training, then it's probably a net benefit. It's all about the balance.


Very well said gpseymour.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2018)

I am pretty sure those guys who can just casually walk their foot up head hight and hold it there and going to also be pretty good kickers.


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## Earl Weiss (May 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Very well said gpseymour.


I note that dvcochran disagreed with my post #10.  I (perhaps others as well) would be interested in hearing the reasons.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I am pretty sure those guys who can just casually walk their foot up head hight and hold it there and going to also be pretty good kickers.


If they've practiced kicks. The flexibility certainly gives them an advantage, and the general athleticism, too. I wouldn't expect the average ballerina (who can do that) to also have great fighting kicks.


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## drop bear (May 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If they've practiced kicks. The flexibility certainly gives them an advantage, and the general athleticism, too. I wouldn't expect the average ballerina (who can do that) to also have great fighting kicks.



seems to be a bit of pep generated.


----------



## dvcochran (May 26, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> IMO one of the reasons techniques are structured as they are is they provide a "Center Point" along a spectrum (Or as in a recent article center of a sphere)  which make it easier to morph the technique along the spectrum (or to any point inside the sphere radiating outward)  as needed for sparring, self defense, breaking, etc.  as opposed to practicing a technique which might be at one end of the spectrum (or far from the center f the sphere) and morphing it to a point much further away. (Hope that makes sense).





Earl Weiss said:


> IMO one of the reasons techniques are structured as they are is they provide a "Center Point" along a spectrum (Or as in a recent article center of a sphere)  which make it easier to morph the technique along the spectrum (or to any point inside the sphere radiating outward)  as needed for sparring, self defense, breaking, etc.  as opposed to practicing a technique which might be at one end of the spectrum (or far from the center f the sphere) and morphing it to a point much further away. (Hope that makes sense).


Mr. Weiss,
The main reason I disagree with your premise is that you are describing the ideal position from which the technique is executed (I think). I can think of a lot of times when I would be off balance or out of position and still make a good strike because of speed, timing, etc... We practice and explain the differences of off balance strikes and how to use them. Nothing worse than watching a student beat themselves up over and over because they feel they are not performing a technique perfectly. Especially in self defense, a poorly executed technique is better that none at all.
No, it doesn't really make sense but sounds really cool. Please explain if I misunderstand.


----------



## dvcochran (May 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes and no I think
> 
> The body is a master of compensation, performing a kick in ultra slomo uses the same muscles (but as you said, fires differently) and commits the end point.
> 
> ...


I have had a few adult gymnasts and several adult ballet students in class over the years. Whether it is how the muscles and joints are trained or if they physically change I am not sure. But they all had trouble adapting stance and motion to MA. A few of the people previously in dance said it actually hurt to be in a proper front/back stance. The gymnast especially had difficulty with speed. Incredible strength and balance but it was harder for them to move their legs/arms at speed in attack motions. I think body position was especially engrained on the dancers. Just a totally different kind of flexibility. Don't misunderstand; I am not saying anything negative about gymnastics or ballet, quite the opposite. It was enlightening to try and teach them with their years of different physical experience.


----------



## dvcochran (May 26, 2018)

skribs said:


> But when you do it slower, you use less force for the extension and more force to hold your leg up, even if it's not as much of a difference as holding your leg out.
> 
> It can be a useful practice, but it's not building more muscle in that direction.


Static exercise is a great muscle builder. Hold a front kick for 60 seconds and your quad will feel it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> seems to be a bit of pep generated.


Quite useful if the opponent is a fly on his nose.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Mr. Weiss,
> The main reason I disagree with your premise is that you are describing the ideal position from which the technique is executed (I think). I can think of a lot of times when I would be off balance or out of position and still make a good strike because of speed, timing, etc... We practice and explain the differences of off balance strikes and how to use them. Nothing worse than watching a student beat themselves up over and over because they feel they are not performing a technique perfectly. Especially in self defense, a poorly executed technique is better that none at all.
> No, it doesn't really make sense but sounds really cool. Please explain if I misunderstand.


He didn't refer to it as an ideal position, but as a center point. I think that's a good place to teach from on many techniques - show the point farthest from errors in as many directions as possible, so most of the useful variations are reasonably close to the primary taught version.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I have had a few adult gymnasts and several adult ballet students in class over the years. Whether it is how the muscles and joints are trained or if they physically change I am not sure. But they all had trouble adapting stance and motion to MA. A few of the people previously in dance said it actually hurt to be in a proper front/back stance. The gymnast especially had difficulty with speed. Incredible strength and balance but it was harder for them to move their legs/arms at speed in attack motions. I think body position was especially engrained on the dancers. Just a totally different kind of flexibility. Don't misunderstand; I am not saying anything negative about gymnastics or ballet, quite the opposite. It was enlightening to try and teach them with their years of different physical experience.


I've not taught any serious dancers or gymnasts that I know of, but I do recall an instructor telling me he preferred for students to have dance experience.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Static exercise is a great muscle builder. Hold a front kick for 60 seconds and your quad will feel it.


Yes, but is it training the muscles for the kick? Probably not. It's still a useful exercise, but probably not a great one for developing kicking speed, power, or accuracy. I'll bet it contributes _something _to power, but not as much as other exercises can.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, but is it training the muscles for the kick? Probably not. It's still a useful exercise, but probably not a great one for developing kicking speed, power, or accuracy. I'll bet it contributes _something _to power, but not as much as other exercises can.



I met a ballet dancer that could kick well. Your generalizations are not accurate.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I met a ballet dancer that could kick well. Your generalizations are not accurate.


It's possible. You have any experience to counter my hypothesis?

(EDIT: Which isn't the same thing as a generalization, by the way.)


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I met a ballet dancer that could kick well.



Because they'd been taught to kick well, or because they were a ballet dancer? Nobody has said (that I've seen) that dancers can't kick. What they've said is that the kicking done by dancers is, in many (most?) cases not the sort of kicking that we do in martial arts. I've trained one serious dancer. Out of the box, has kicks were fast, high, controlled, and very pretty. 
Didn't hurt at all, but they sure were pretty.
After she learned to throw a TKD kick instead of a dance kick, they hurt.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's possible. You have any experience to counter my hypothesis?
> 
> (EDIT: Which isn't the same thing as a generalization, by the way.)



You just like to argue.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You just like to argue.



That is dirty dog throwing around the multiple dislikes.

Always found that the funniest response when I upset someone.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That is dirty dog throwing around the multiple dislikes.
> 
> Always found that the funniest response when I upset someone.



Not the least bit upset. I just disagree with your statement, but don't think it's worth arguing about.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not the least bit upset. I just disagree with your statement, but don't think it's worth arguing about.



Three in under a minute?


----------



## dvcochran (May 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, but is it training the muscles for the kick? Probably not. It's still a useful exercise, but probably not a great one for developing kicking speed, power, or accuracy. I'll bet it contributes _something _to power, but not as much as other exercises can.


Agreed. It is a compliment exercise. A part of the whole of building and teaching the body part to perform a specific task.


----------



## dvcochran (May 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've not taught any serious dancers or gymnasts that I know of, but I do recall an instructor telling me he preferred for students to have dance experience.


I has to have something to do with muscle memory/training. Typically, when the dancers would perform a front kick, the hip, and so leg, would be completely rotated to the side. Some of them could literally be standing straight and raise their straight leg to the left or right and bring it straight up beside their body. But instead of the bottom of the foot and calf being pointed forward it would be pointed to the side. A strange image the first time you see it in class. Would love to have that flexibility but I think the muscles had been trained very different from how they are trained in MA


----------



## dvcochran (May 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Nothing is really truly automatic with the human body. Some things are preinstalled, but can be edited later.
> 
> ****dvcochran - Some things are voluntary and some are involuntary. This link does an excellent job of explaining the differences:
> Medical Encyclopedia - Function: Voluntary and Involuntary Responses - Aviva
> ...


----------



## pdg (May 27, 2018)

@dvcochran - you aren't getting my interpretation of the word 'automatic'...

Involuntary does not mean automatic, in the context of my parts of the conversation it means subconscious.

If a heartbeat or a breath were truly automatic, they wouldn't need the intervention of the brain - what happens to respiration and circulation if you remove the brain?

And to repeat, they can be reprogrammed and overridden - your responses with regard to breathing and heart rate change if your fitness or wellbeing vary, and I can actively control my breathing and, to some extent with concentration, my heart rate - if truly automatic that wouldn't be possible.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You just like to argue.


Nope. You’re the one arguing, friend. I didn’t make a generalization - I stated my personal expectation (or lack thereof) for an average dancer of a specific type. I avoided generalizing across all dancers, or even all ballerinas. And I think the way I stated it allows that there are probably exceptions. 

I didn’t see that in your statement you are dragging into this thread.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 27, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I has to have something to do with muscle memory/training. Typically, when the dancers would perform a front kick, the hip, and so leg, would be completely rotated to the side. Some of them could literally be standing straight and raise their straight leg to the left or right and bring it straight up beside their body. But instead of the bottom of the foot and calf being pointed forward it would be pointed to the side. A strange image the first time you see it in class. Would love to have that flexibility but I think the muscles had been trained very different from how they are trained in MA


The instructor in question didn’t teach kicks that I know of, so he probably didn’t have the issue to anything like the extent you’d run into in a system that has more kicking emphasis. I think he just liked their ability to stay relaxed and to link movements together fluidly.


----------



## skribs (May 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I met a ballet dancer that could kick well. Your generalizations are not accurate.



Ballet dancers can easily learn to kick, because they've learned control over their body.  However, it's not always going to be easy for them to transition from dance to combat.  For example, we had a ballet dancer with beautiful movements, but her roundhouse kick was more like a side kick (but with the instep...it was a strange-looking kick), and it took a lot of training for her to understand the difference between them.


----------



## drop bear (May 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Nope. You’re the one arguing, friend. I didn’t make a generalization - I stated my personal expectation (or lack thereof) for an average dancer of a specific type. I avoided generalizing across all dancers, or even all ballerinas. And I think the way I stated it allows that there are probably exceptions.
> 
> I didn’t see that in your statement you are dragging into this thread.



Re read it. Basically we have reversed roles completely.

Except for some reason I am wrong in both instances.


----------



## pdg (May 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Re read it. Basically we have reversed roles completely.
> 
> Except for some reason I am wrong in both instances.



Are you sure you aren't mistakenly arguing with my wife?

Because that goes the same way, I'm apparently wrong about something so I decide to agree with her, then I'm wrong again...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Re read it. Basically we have reversed roles completely.
> 
> Except for some reason I am wrong in both instances.


Yours sounded to me like you were saying that was all Karateka. If I misread that, correcting my misreading would have ended the misunderstanding pretty quickly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Are you sure you aren't mistakenly arguing with my wife?
> 
> Because that goes the same way, I'm apparently wrong about something so I decide to agree with her, then I'm wrong again...


No, you're wrong about that.


----------



## pdg (May 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> No, you're wrong about that.



I had to agree, just so I could be wrong about that too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> I had to agree, just so I could be wrong about that too.


Well played.


----------



## dvcochran (May 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> Ballet dancers can easily learn to kick, because they've learned control over their body.  However, it's not always going to be easy for them to transition from dance to combat.  For example, we had a ballet dancer with beautiful movements, but her roundhouse kick was more like a side kick (but with the instep...it was a strange-looking kick), and it took a lot of training for her to understand the difference between them.


As said, it is difficult for them to learn to kick correctly.


----------



## skribs (May 27, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> As said, it is difficult for them to learn to kick correctly.



I'd say it "can be difficult" not "it is difficult."  Other dancers I've had have picked up the correct mechanics real fast.  And, aside from the roundhouse kick specifically, the one I'm talking about learned all the other kicks real quick, too.


----------



## dvcochran (May 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I met a ballet dancer that could kick well. Your generalizations are not accurate.


It wasn't intended as a generalization. I was speaking relevant to the people I have had experience with.


----------



## dvcochran (May 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'd say it "can be difficult" not "it is difficult."  Other dancers I've had have picked up the correct mechanics real fast.  And, aside from the roundhouse kick specifically, the one I'm talking about learned all the other kicks real quick, too.


Speculation, but I imagine it has a lot to do with the amount of time they spent in their given genre.


----------



## dvcochran (May 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> @dvcochran - you aren't getting my interpretation of the word 'automatic'...
> 
> Involuntary does not mean automatic, in the context of my parts of the conversation it means subconscious.
> 
> ...


What purpose does a heartbeat or breath by themselves serve? The body is a system that all works together, ala, some things are automatic for it to function.


----------



## drop bear (May 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Are you sure you aren't mistakenly arguing with my wife?
> 
> Because that goes the same way, I'm apparently wrong about something so I decide to agree with her, then I'm wrong again...



Pretty much how i feel.


----------



## Earl Weiss (May 28, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Mr. Weiss,
> The main reason I disagree with your premise is that you are describing the ideal position from which the technique is executed (I think). ....
> No, it doesn't really make sense but sounds really cool. Please explain if I misunderstand.


I will try to explain. I cannot say if you understood my point or not,   Techniques can be done in many ways.   You may do it one way for sparring to maximize your chance of success under whatever rule set facing an opponent.  You may do it another way when breaking under whatever rules apply for that with no concern for defense, opponent etc.  Combat may use a different method. Some methods my need to be done  even being off balance.  If you view the spectrum of technique variations as each being  a point radiating outward somewhere from the center of  a sphere, the method at the center of the sphere is the point from which it would be easiest  to morph each variation.   That center point method may very well be the pattern method.   (I hope this makes sense. )


----------



## Earl Weiss (May 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> He didn't refer to it as an ideal position, but as a center point. I think that's a good place to teach from on many techniques - show the point farthest from errors in as many directions as possible, so most of the useful variations are reasonably close to the primary taught version.


Thank you, At least I know I explained this  idea so it could be  understood by someone


----------



## dvcochran (May 28, 2018)

Earl Weiss said:


> I will try to explain. I cannot say if you understood my point or not,   Techniques can be done in many ways.   You may do it one way for sparring to maximize your chance of success under whatever rule set facing an opponent.  You may do it another way when breaking under whatever rules apply for that with no concern for defense, opponent etc.  Combat may use a different method. Some methods my need to be done  even being off balance.  If you view the spectrum of technique variations as each being  a point radiating outward somewhere from the center of  a sphere, the method at the center of the sphere is the point from which it would be easiest  to morph each variation.   That center point method may very well be the pattern method.   (I hope this makes sense. )


Yes, I think we are saying much the same thing, but your way is much more eloquent. So, in your explanation, do you see, at least at the root that a (choose type) kick is a kick? The rest is variation and understanding application.
I'm a "put the cookies on the bottom shelf" kind of guy. Simple mind and all.


----------



## drop bear (May 28, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, I think we are saying much the same thing, but your way is much more eloquent. So, in your explanation, do you see, at least at the root that a (choose type) kick is a kick? The rest is variation and understanding application.
> I'm a "put the cookies on the bottom shelf" kind of guy. Simple mind and all.



If you want to telegraph your intent in exactly the same way every time you kick. Then one kick is fine.

If you change the power generation of the kick. Then everything else about that kick is a little bit off.

Which you understand because you are training it. But he has to work out in the split second he has to deal with it.


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## Earl Weiss (May 29, 2018)

[QUOTE="dvcochran, post: 1904349, member: 38081.................. So, in your explanation, do you see, at least at the root that a (choose type) kick is a kick? .[/QUOTE]

I think I read that somewhere:  
"Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. It is the halfway cultivation that leads to ornamentation. Jeet Kune-Do is basically a sophisticated fighting style stripped to its essentials.
Bruce Lee "  
Occam's razor is a similar view. 
I agree with those. 
My thought about viewing a pattern method as a central point along a spectrum is  not entirely different and separate from the "Alternate / real " application concerning some pattern motions.    The "Spectrum" idea has to do with ways of  using the kick, as a kick in different situations.   Yes, it may also be a way to think of morphing a technique into something entirely different, for example a low outer forearm block as blocking an impact attack to the lower abdomen, but morphing it into a release from a grab etc.


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