# Worth Deducting Points For?



## dancingalone (Nov 8, 2012)

Just curious what everyone thinks.  I judged at an open tournament this last weekend, mostly in the traditional Japanese/Korean forms divisions.  The competitors are supposed to run a "traditional" pattern, though certainly in an open tournament the definition can vary since you're bound to see a lot of variation in how a pattern is played.  

How would you feel about seeing Seisan performed with bits from Chinto and Kusanku clearly added for added flair?  Worth deducting a point or two?  By the way, the tournament director said 'use your judgment', meaning he left it up to me.


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## WC_lun (Nov 8, 2012)

After years of judging tournaments I could usually spot a off form.  However, I judged at open tournaments and it was not my job to correct what another instructor had taught.  It was my job to judge and rate the actual movements performed by the competitors.  To be fair, I would not take into consideration if i knew a form was different from standard, because I would not be able to spot that in every competitor.  However, I could see if every competitor had focus, base, and understanding of what they were doing.  

Now if it were a tournament relegated to the school or system, that's a different thing.  Those forms should be the same and I would judge if it was off.  If an instructor had issues with it, they would come see me and I'd tell them why, because we all knew the proper way to do those forms.


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## dancingalone (Nov 8, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> After years of judging tournaments I could usually spot a off form.  *However, I judged at open tournaments and it was not my job to correct what another instructor had taught.*



For the sake of discussion (and please anyone else who wants to jump in, please do), let's assume that we KNOW this is a modification the competitor or his coach/teacher added solely for tournaments as they play the forms differently for normal practice.

Bad 'form' to game the system a bit since this is supposed to be a traditional form division?


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 8, 2012)

This is a difficult question. 
If the rules where that the forms where to be traditional then deducting a point from your score could have been the correct thing to do. However having said this I would also say that after the competition in that ring was over I would tell the competitor why the score was lower. If he had any complaints or his instructor did I would refer them to the rules set by the tournament and explain that adding from other forms just to add flair meant he was not doing the traditional form but a composite form.
Now if you went the other way and only judged by how he preformed the form I would also say that you where correct.

As I said before this is a hard one to answer because both giving or taking away points could be correct in the eyes of many


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2012)

tshadowchaser said:


> This is a difficult question.
> If the rules where that the forms where to be traditional then deducting a point from your score could have been the correct thing to do. However having said this I would also say that after the competition in that ring was over I would tell the competitor why the score was lower. If he had any complaints or his instructor did I would refer them to the rules set by the tournament and explain that adding from other forms just to add flair meant he was not doing the traditional form but a composite form.
> Now if you went the other way and only judged by how he preformed the form I would also say that you where correct.
> 
> As I said before this is a hard one to answer because both giving or taking away points could be correct in the eyes of many



I go with this. 
I don't think though that a kata, especially a high grades one needs embellishing by adding bits from others, a well executed kata is a joy in it's self. I'd be disappointed to see 'extras' put in to a traditional kata.


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## WC_lun (Nov 8, 2012)

Often those "extras and embellishments" make absolutley no difference in my score.  That type of stuff is not what I am looking at.  I am a traditional judge, so I look at if the competitor seems to know what those movements are for, do they move by transitioning stances, are those stances settled, is there focus on what they are doing, is there physical body awareness?  You could do a butterfly kick and as a judge in a traditional ring, my score would not be better for it, and possibly negatively influenced if done as obvious flair in exchange for the traditional base.  While things such as butterfly kicks are physically impressive, that isn't my job as a judge.


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## dancingalone (Nov 8, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Often those "extras and embellishments" make absolutley no difference in my score.  That type of stuff is not what I am looking at.  I am a traditional judge, so I look at if the competitor seems to know what those movements are for, do they move by transitioning stances, are those stances settled, is there focus on what they are doing, is there physical body awareness?  You could do a butterfly kick and as a judge in a traditional ring, my score would not be better for it, and possibly negatively influenced if done as obvious flair in exchange for the traditional base.  While things such as butterfly kicks are physically impressive, that isn't my job as a judge.



*All other things being equal*, you've got to reward athleticism, I think.  That's the reason why Kusanku and Unsu are popular dan level tournament kata - they contain difficult movements in them that you simply have to be fit and strong to pull off.  It's the same idea behind the old technical merit marks in figure skating where you get bonus points for attempting a more athletic spinning jump.  

So I can understand why the competitor added elements of other kata onto Seisan in a move to appeal to more judges.  What I question is why they didn't pick another kata altogether to begin with.


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## WC_lun (Nov 8, 2012)

Dancing, I understand what you are saying, but very rarely is everything equal.  On top of that, I can watch a person doing a base form and tell you which person has the superior physical skills as well as which one has trained thier base movements the most.  I don't need to see the flashy stuff to see it.


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## Grenadier (Nov 8, 2012)

Regardless of whether the tournament were a truly traditional one, or a fully open one, it comes down to the quality of technique, and how good the fundamentals really are.  

Some schools may use modified kata sequences, and if that's the way they do it, I cannot fault them for performing the sequence that they were taught.  

However, where I can fault someone, is if they try to put a premium on flashiness at the expense of good fundamental technique.  If I see someone's hip levels bouncing up and down, while trying to do a traditional kata, regardless of whether or not they have thrown in aerial techniques or techniques from other kata, then I'm going to deduct points.  

If I see someone coming up on the ball of his plant foot when throwing a kick, I'm going to deduct points, regardless of what the tournament may be.  

As a *generalization* of what I've seen at tournaments, people who try to spice things up by catering to the flashiness at the expense of solid technique, really have sloppy kata, and I have absolutely no hesitation when it comes to deducting from their scores and / or voting for the other guy (flag system). 


On the other side of the coin, I look at traditional Karate competitors who have won championships, such as Luca Valdesi, and see the modifications he makes to his kata to make it look more flashy.  

In those cases, I'm not impressed by such modifications.  For example, in his kata Gankaku, he uses a high side thrust kick, instead of the snapping side kick that normally goes to the mid-level.  I honestly believe that he shouldn't be doing that at the traditional competitions, since he's obviously good enough that he could win by doing the kata the way it's supposed to be done.  I can't argue with the world level referees, since they've seen his excellent techniques.  

Where I especially get irritated, though, is when other people try to copy his methods, and do so at the expense of good technique, thinking that his way must be right because he wins...


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## jks9199 (Nov 8, 2012)

I wouldn't be able to recognize the additions except by comparison with other competitors, unless they really didn't flow.  That said -- in an open tournament, I'm usually grading on how well they know the kata, their execution of the kata, their balance, power, focus, and similar fundamentals that can generally be identified across styles.  

If I think about the various different versions of some of our fundamental forms in a closed tournament environment, when I see something added or subtracted from the forms, I simply look at all the rest of it.  As noted, it's rare for two people to truly be equal.

With all that said -- I'd look to the rules.  If the rules said "Traditional forms only" -- if you alter the kata, it's no longer the traditional form.  I'd probably deduct points if I realized it.  Otherwise -- added challenge and athleticism/presentation means more to go wrong, too... they get graded on the whole package.


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