# honsuki and NCK



## marlon

Is there anyone out there who has learned this form from Master Cerio?

respectfully,
marlon


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## RevIV

learned it directly or indirectly?
Jesse


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## marlon

Well at least from someone who learned it directly from master Cerio

marlon

p.s good to hear from you Jesse


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## RevIV

what is it that you are trying to figure out with  this form?  There are many versions --  Its good to see your still out there searching for things Marlon.
Jesse


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## Matt

marlon said:


> Is there anyone out there who has learned this form from Master Cerio?
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon



I haven't found one yet, I hope you do. 

Good luck!

Matt


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> what is it that you are trying to figure out with this form? There are many versions -- Its good to see your still out there searching for things Marlon.
> Jesse


 

it is a form different from all the other sk forms.  I think that an original form such as this done in the closest way to the original will 'teach' you something of the roots of the style and the style of the originator.  in the end i am working on figuring out shaolin kempo.  As for still searching...Jesse there is so much i do not know and almost every newe thing i learn teaches me something about what i thought i already knew that...well...forever a student

resepctfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

me too Matt.  Many thanks for all your work on the archive andf history of shaolin kempo

With respect
marlon


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## marlon

BTW, if you guys, (Matt,Chris <Jesse...) are interested it would be great to come down and just train.  Work the techniques hard and 'pound' out some questions instead of only thinking about them.  your experience and expertise with applications of forms and combinations and some situational attacks with some contact and resistance with other black belts or whoever would be a huge benefit to training.  I would love to take some bruises from you guys in org\der to learn and really flesch out some things in SK.  Training is truth.  Let me know if we can set a date in the spring?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Matt

marlon said:


> BTW, if you guys, (Matt,Chris <Jesse...) are interested it would be great to come down and just train.  Work the techniques hard and 'pound' out some questions instead of only thinking about them.  your experience and expertise with applications of forms and combinations and some situational attacks with some contact and resistance with other black belts or whoever would be a huge benefit to training.  I would love to take some bruises from you guys in org\der to learn and really flesch out some things in SK.  Training is truth.  Let me know if we can set a date in the spring?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



I'm in.


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## DavidCC

marlon said:


> Is there anyone out there who has learned this form from Master Cerio?
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
Have you reached out to Joe Shuras or Craig Seavey?  Maybe Law Dog here at MT can help?


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## Jdokan

Matt said:


> I'm in.


me too....


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## youngbraveheart

I'd love to see someone doing the Hansuki...I think there's an old thread floating around that mentions this form and the different parties involved with it...


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## DavidCC

I'm surprised its not on You Tube.  I think I ahve a copy on an old Villari White To Black VHS, I'll see if I can get that posted in the next week or so...


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> I'm surprised its not on You Tube. I think I ahve a copy on an old Villari White To Black VHS, I'll see if I can get that posted in the next week or so...


 

Here's a version that is similar, but not the SKK version I have ...


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## 14 Kempo

14 Kempo said:


> Here's a version that is similar, but not the SKK version I have ...


 
Sorry, messed that up ... Click Here


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## 14 Kempo

... and here's a version from USSD ... Click Here ... although I've seen better


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## kenpoquilter

here's a link to a video of my sensei doing hon suki a few weeks ago at a tournament in Portland Maine...


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## Matt

14 Kempo said:


> Sorry, messed that up ... Click Here



Wow...I thought I'd seen all the variations....

There's a link to a video of me doing it linked somewhere on this board. Ill try to find it. There's a couple versions available at my site. Just search for it.


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## Matt

kenpoquilter said:


> here's a link to a video of my sensei doing hon suki a few weeks ago at a tournament in Portland Maine...



That's the same link. Jeff Lamkin's tournament. Is he still with Northern Chi? Is your instructor a Northern Chi person? Just curious as to where that version comes from.


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## kenpoquilter

Matt said:


> That's the same link. Jeff Lamkin's tournament. Is he still with Northern Chi? Is your instructor a Northern Chi person? Just curious as to where that version comes from.


 
Jeff isn't with Northern Chi anymore, I think he learned this prior to joining with them. I'll find out who he got the form from and let you know.


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## kenpoquilter

Matt said:


> Wow...I thought I'd seen all the variations....
> 
> There's a link to a video of me doing it linked somewhere on this board. Ill try to find it. There's a couple versions available at my site. Just search for it.


 
This is kind of off topic, but I use your site a TON! I'm relatively new to kenpo (been studying with Jeff for about a year) but find that I need to read through the techniques and stuff to remember them, guess it's just how I learn things. Jeff laughs at my notebook I carry around with me with all my notes and diagrams from my classes. Anyway, I stumbled across your archive in one of my many web searches and absolutely love it. Kenpo is difficult to find written out like that. There are some differences in a few things, but not many, between what you have and how Jeff teaches it, but I guess that's why it's an art. It usually results in interesting classes when I bring your stuff in and ask about the differences. The site is really helpful.


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## kenpoquilter

kenpoquilter said:


> Jeff isn't with Northern Chi anymore, I think he learned this prior to joining with them. I'll find out who he got the form from and let you know.


 
Jeff got the form from Paul Barber in New York.


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## kenpoquilter

kenpoquilter said:


> Jeff got the form from Paul Barber in New York.


and he adapted it for the tournament.


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## Matt

kenpoquilter said:


> This is kind of off topic, but I use your site a TON! I'm relatively new to kenpo (been studying with Jeff for about a year) but find that I need to read through the techniques and stuff to remember them, guess it's just how I learn things. Jeff laughs at my notebook I carry around with me with all my notes and diagrams from my classes. Anyway, I stumbled across your archive in one of my many web searches and absolutely love it. Kenpo is difficult to find written out like that. There are some differences in a few things, but not many, between what you have and how Jeff teaches it, but I guess that's why it's an art. It usually results in interesting classes when I bring your stuff in and ask about the differences. The site is really helpful.



Glad you like it. There's a thread for it in the technical section if you have any suggestions / comments. I met Jeff a while back - he was nice, he worked with my friend Chris for a bit.


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## Matt

kenpoquilter said:


> and he adapted it for the tournament.



Oh, ok, that makes sense. Sometimes the Northern Chi forms had 'tweaks' in them, so I thought maybe that was the case.


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## youngbraveheart

kenpoquilter said:


> here's a link to a video of my sensei doing hon suki a few weeks ago at a tournament in Portland Maine...


 
...so that's the *Hon*suki...who's version is that?


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## 14 Kempo

youngbraveheart said:


> ...so that's the *Hon*suki...who's version is that?


 
I can only say that is not the SKK version that I know and I've had it since the 80s. It is recognizable, but very different.


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## DavidCC

please 
please 
please tape yours!


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## Matt

It's up at my site in a blog post. It's a small video, but reasonably clear.


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## RevIV

youngbraveheart said:


> ...so that's the *Hon*suki...who's version is that?


 

You know what would be really great?  If we could actually see the original version created by your teachers father GM Chun Sr.  Master Chun Jr. has teased us a few times out here by showing bits and pieces of it, and he sure did not do the "7 flowery hands of the tiger" version.  Just got off the phone with Shihan and the next Unity seminar in New England is almost confirmed.  The best way to show respect to this form would be for the masses to see the original and know how it started instead of doing the bastardized versions that we do or have seen in this thread.  But that is for another thread and another set of old school beliefs.
In Peace,
Jesse


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## youngbraveheart

RevIV said:


> You know what would be really great? If we could actually see the original version created by your teachers father GM Chun Sr. Master Chun Jr. has teased us a few times out here by showing bits and pieces of it, and he sure did not do the "7 flowery hands of the tiger" version. Just got off the phone with Shihan and the next Unity seminar in New England is almost confirmed. The best way to show respect to this form would be for the masses to see the original and know how it started instead of doing the bastardized versions that we do or have seen in this thread. But that is for another thread and another set of old school beliefs.
> In Peace,
> Jesse


 
Hey Jesse, that'd be great if Master Chun would show the Hansuki and explain it's history...Why don't you ask?  It's interesting to try to figure out when, why, and how the Hansuki was "borrowed" and recreated into different versions.

I only know of less than a handful of selected people (blackbelts) that were given the privilege of learning the form Grandmaster Bill Chun Sr. created.  I do get to see in person how awesome Hansuki is...

Good luck if you're gonna ask...

Johnny


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## RevIV

youngbraveheart said:


> Hey Jesse, that'd be great if Master Chun would show the Hansuki and explain it's history...Why don't you ask? It's interesting to try to figure out when, why, and how the Hansuki was "borrowed" and recreated into different versions.
> 
> I only know of less than a handful of selected people (blackbelts) that were given the privilege of learning the form Grandmaster Bill Chun Sr. created. I do get to see in person how awesome Hansuki is...
> 
> Good luck if you're gonna ask...
> 
> Johnny


 
Ha.. no way,  I just try to find myself lucky if I'm around the person who does ask, and if Master Chun Jr. happens to show a piece I will watch for sure. 
as to the "borrowed" statement.  (i liked the  "   "  ) I will give the quickest writeup to what i have heard.  Master Chun Sr. showed Prof. Cerio, Prof. Cerio showed his brother, while practicing the form GM Villari watched and took the basics of the form and for the parts he could not remember added his flare.  Thats the simplist jist of things as I know it.  which means it could be completely wrong - not to unlike most of the SKK history as Matt would tell you. haha,  see i do understand Matt.
Jesse


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## youngbraveheart

RevIV said:


> Ha.. no way, I just try to find myself lucky if I'm around the person who does ask, and if Master Chun Jr. happens to show a piece I will watch for sure...


 
LOL about "Ha.. no way" :wink1:

The question to ponder is: "_Was the Hansuki Grandmaster Chun Sr. showed Professor Cerio the original form in its entirety (all intact) or a facsimile_?" (I understand GM Chun Sr. and Great GM Chow were guarded about their Kenpo/Kempo.) I can see how a form can transform or morph into something different when different people are involved and when they put in their own "stuff"...Wonder what GM Chun Sr. would think if he saw others doing the Honsuki?...


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## RevIV

youngbraveheart said:


> LOL about "Ha.. no way" :wink1:
> 
> The question to ponder is: "_Was the Hansuki Grandmaster Chun Sr. showed Professor Cerio the original form in its entirety (all intact) or a facsimile_?" (I understand GM Chun Sr. and Great GM Chow were guarded about their Kenpo/Kempo.) I can see how a form can transform or morph into something different when different people are involved and when they put in their own "stuff"...Wonder what GM Chun Sr. would think if he saw others doing the Honsuki?...


 

I'll tell you what.. I have no idea.  By the time i learned it, the form had already passed through 3 generations of Kempo guys on the east coast. Cerio-Villari-Bagley.  As far as GM Chun Sr. I can only assumer he would ask what his son asked.  "Why do the form if you know its wrong?"  Of course this was not a truly answerable question when he posed it to me, so I nodded and told him i would ponder that.  Still pondering.
Jesse


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## youngbraveheart

RevIV said:


> I'll tell you what.. I have no idea. By the time i learned it, the form had already passed through 3 generations of Kempo guys on the east coast. Cerio-Villari-Bagley. As far as GM Chun Sr. I can only assumer he would ask what his son asked. "Why do the form if you know its wrong?" Of course this was not a truly answerable question when he posed it to me, so I nodded and told him i would ponder that. Still pondering.
> Jesse


 
...I guess I'd still be pondering too...others must not be asking themselves this question or know the history since there seems to be videos you can find on the internet showing this form...

I guess the passing on of a form is like telling a story at one end of a line and the story changes by the time it reaches the end of the line...as _a naive beginner, I'm learning about "what not to do!"_...


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## RevIV

until the internet most people did not know they were doing anything wrong.  In fact out here in the villari section they only new villari.  I was fortunate to have a teacher who loved history and had studied many other arts and did not get into Kempo until later in life.
Jesse


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## youngbraveheart

RevIV said:


> I was fortunate to have a teacher who loved history and had studied many other arts and did not get into Kempo until later in life.
> Jesse


 
Sorry for my ignorance and naivete...who is your teacher (no offense for not knowing)? Unfortunately, I'm probably the only one (in the world) who doesn't know who's who in the Kenpo/Kempo world today and yesterday...(IMHO GM Chun Sr. doesn't get the recognition that someone of his stature deserves...as if people have blinders on) BTW I'm sure Master Chun is looking forward to seeing you guys on the east coast...


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## kenpoquilter

RevIV said:


> I'll tell you what.. I have no idea. By the time i learned it, the form had already passed through 3 generations of Kempo guys on the east coast. Cerio-Villari-Bagley. As far as GM Chun Sr. I can only assumer he would ask what his son asked. "Why do the form if you know its wrong?" Of course this was not a truly answerable question when he posed it to me, so I nodded and told him i would ponder that. Still pondering.
> Jesse


 
I guess I'm confused, and also a new comer to this, so no disrespect is meant. But how can one do a form 'wrong' when this is an 'art'? It seems every time a form is passed from Sensei to Student it will be changed, even if only slightly. Much like a previous reply stated...like playing whisper down the lane, the message changes with each person. 

I just don't view this as a 'science' where there is a prescribed method and you must perform the form that way each and every time. We'd all look like a bunch of robots if we did that.

If a form is modified and the movements that differ from the original have a plausible bunkai, what is 'wrong' with that, isn't that how the 'art' evolves and moves forward? Is the issue with calling the form 'hon suki' when it may not be exactly how it was performed originally?


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## DavidCC

Quilter, you have struck upon a very important distinction - art v science.

In an Art it is darn near impossible to say that one exection is "correct" and the other "incorrect".  In science this is almost required.

of course correct and incorrect you have to define that too once you get out of the Art realm.

So in Martial Arts, correct might mean "makes maximum use of my body" and incorrect could mean "makes less than optimal use of my body".

Compare similar 2 movements or techniques accomplishing the same goal artistically and one is as good as another.  Approach them scientifically and only one can be "correct" (although both could be incorrect!)

When it comes to looking at kata and history of kata, "correct" means something else.  I think it is pretty subjective, it means something like "correct is the way I learned it from the person (or tradition) who I respect the most".

I prefer to analyze my techniques and movements "scientifiically" as opposed to artistically.  With life and limb on the line, I really am interested in what makes BEST use of all my resources, and some aspects are just not open to interpretation at that point.  "Plausible" is not good enough.


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## youngbraveheart

kenpoquilter said:


> ... But how can one do a form 'wrong' when this is an 'art'?...


 
Coming from a novice, "wrong" _might_ be taking or borrowing someone else's form and making it your own by not showing anything resembling the original form.  Our teacher has told us what forms (i.e. kata) creativity entails and how to give credit to the original form...(Maybe this is plain "old school" way of thinking versus today's "fast food" way of martial arts.) I don't think borrowing or stealing necessarily shows creativity...but what do I know...I'm barely a color belt...


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## kenpoquilter

Well, as one novice to another, you raise a good point. I suppose it would be wrong, ethically in my mind anyway, to take a form and claim it as your own by changing a few things here or there. Looking at the videos of hon suki that have been posted, they all clearly have the same roots. Variations, yes, but to my untrained eye, they all look as though they came from the same form, the movements are similar in each but each is  clearly differentstances are lower in some, timing is different in all of them, some moves are added or taken away, emphasized or not. I dont view any as wrong though. I dont think any of the individuals have borrowed hon suki and not given credit to the original form. But thats only my opinionnovice though it may be.

I fear we have ventured far astray from the original question about hon suki and Master Cerio, but I do find this helpful. As a newcomer to this art, I struggle with the question of changes to forms and combinationswhere can I adapt to what I can do, where do I leave it alone, how much can I change before someone labels it wrong? I cant tell you how many times the phrase Ive seen it done this way, too has been uttered in my classesis that a bad thing if you look at the differences, analyze them, and take away what works best for you?


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## youngbraveheart

kenpoquilter said:


> ...Looking at the videos of hon suki that have been posted, they all clearly have the same roots. Variations, yes, but to my untrained eye, they all look as though they came from the same form, the movements are similar in each but each is clearly different&#8230;stances are lower in some, timing is different in all of them, some moves are added or taken away, emphasized or not. I don&#8217;t view any as &#8216;wrong&#8217; though. I don&#8217;t think any of the individuals have borrowed hon suki and not given credit to the original form. But that&#8217;s only my opinion&#8230;novice though it may be....


 
I just saw your post about your sensei performing the honsuki recently...I think Jesse basically says it all...



RevIV said:


> You know what would be really great? If we could actually see the original version created by your teachers father GM Chun Sr. Master Chun Jr. has teased us a few times out here by showing bits and pieces of it, and he sure did not do the "7 flowery hands of the tiger" version... The best way to show respect to this form would be for the masses to see the original and know how it started instead of doing the bastardized versions that we do or have seen in this thread. But that is for another thread and another set of old school beliefs...


 
Being rather biased, I prefer to see the (original) Hansuki...(maybe Master Chun might be willing to show it this fall at one of his seminars)...nothing against those who have modified this form and especially nothing against those who perform the Honsuki today...since the Hansuki is only for selected blackbelts in our style, I don't have to worry about learning it...I have enough things to learn and know...:boing1:


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## KENPOJOE

marlon said:


> Is there anyone out there who has learned this form from Master Cerio?
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


Hi folks,
Dear Marlon,
Prof.Cerio only taught this form for a short time after returning from Hawaii. He taught only his most advanced black belts at that time. After Frank Cerio taught Fred Villari the form there was a falling out between the two and Prof. Cerio stopped teaching the form. The people who learned the form professor cerio, are still active and online are few if any.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

marlon said:


> it is a form different from all the other sk forms. I think that an original form such as this done in the closest way to the original will 'teach' you something of the roots of the style and the style of the originator. in the end i am working on figuring out shaolin kempo. As for still searching...Jesse there is so much i do not know and almost every newe thing i learn teaches me something about what i thought i already knew that...well...forever a student
> 
> resepctfully,
> Marlon


Hi folks!
The reason the form is "different" is because it comes from an entirely different source. After the form from Prof. Chow was incorporated there was a "reverse engineering" where elements of the form were infused throughout the Shaolin Kempo curriculum
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

marlon said:


> BTW, if you guys, (Matt,Chris <Jesse...) are interested it would be great to come down and just train. Work the techniques hard and 'pound' out some questions instead of only thinking about them. your experience and expertise with applications of forms and combinations and some situational attacks with some contact and resistance with other black belts or whoever would be a huge benefit to training. I would love to take some bruises from you guys in org\der to learn and really flesch out some things in SK. Training is truth. Let me know if we can set a date in the spring?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


Hi folks!
dear marlon,
Aren't you in Canada? You mentioned coming "down" so it threw me off. New with a passport being needed to go to the "great white north",don't think i can go up there....
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

Hi folks!
Been reading this thread and I just wanted to give in some imput.
The form simply stated has always come from the Chow/Chun lineage. I was honored and privilaged to have Bill Chun Jr. demonstrate the Hansuki form at his first appearence in Rhode Island. I will always be greatful for him taking the time and sharing that with myself and the privilaged few in attendence at that time. Mr. Chun is a private person who is sincere in his life and study of the arts. He speaks from his heart and I appreciate that. 
In regards to the form itself, I beleive that he is happy that something from the legacy of his father is being perpectuated through generations in any incarnation. I have tried over the last few years to acertain the proper history,reason & rationale behind the form. I have placed some of my findings on an instructional DVD entitled "Hansuki:History & Tradition" in which I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Jr. for teaching this form to him. I also detail out various aspects,techniques and actions to attempt to educate kempoists to some of the information I had gleamed from my research. I clearly state that it is the Shaolin Kempo version of the form. I plan to do a second DVD in the form & application including different individuals performing the form to show the diversity of the formats that have been created over the years.
I have placed a small unfinished segment of the DVD on youtube for your perusal.
As to whether Mr. Chun will teach this form to others, I would think he will reserve that for those of his personal students he deems worthy of learning it after a proper ammount of dedicated study. I am available to discuss this form and shaolin kempo in general for those of you interested.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> You know what would be really great? If we could actually see the original version created by your teachers father GM Chun Sr. Master Chun Jr. has teased us a few times out here by showing bits and pieces of it, and he sure did not do the "7 flowery hands of the tiger" version. Just got off the phone with Shihan and the next Unity seminar in New England is almost confirmed. The best way to show respect to this form would be for the masses to see the original and know how it started instead of doing the bastardized versions that we do or have seen in this thread. But that is for another thread and another set of old school beliefs.
> In Peace,
> Jesse


 

i am 100% with you on this Jesse!  I still would like to see a N.Cerio taught version though, especially since by all accounts he was very strict about this form.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

Matt said:


> It's up at my site in a blog post. It's a small video, but reasonably clear.


 
since we had the same teachers Matt, i guess it is obviuos that we have the same version except for one or two small angle differences and hand positions.
BTW in case i did not say it before your site is a great gift to the SK community!! Thank you for all the work and dedication you put into this for us.
Respectfully,
marlon


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> I'll tell you what.. I have no idea. By the time i learned it, the form had already passed through 3 generations of Kempo guys on the east coast. Cerio-Villari-Bagley. As far as GM Chun Sr. I can only assumer he would ask what his son asked. "Why do the form if you know its wrong?" Of course this was not a truly answerable question when he posed it to me, so I nodded and told him i would ponder that. Still pondering.
> Jesse


 
Jesse, the reason i still do the form is because it teaches something of the nature and flavour of GM Chun sr's kempo.  It is evident from the distinctiveness of the form that it is not SK as we have it but can improve our sk if we learn from it.  Until i have the original i will still teach and study this form and its benefits....but this is just me , right or wrong...   

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

kenpoquilter said:


> I guess I'm confused, and also a new comer to this, so no disrespect is meant. But how can one do a form 'wrong' when this is an 'art'? It seems every time a form is passed from Sensei to Student it will be changed, even if only slightly. Much like a previous reply stated...like playing whisper down the lane, the message changes with each person.
> 
> I just don't view this as a 'science' where there is a prescribed method and you must perform the form that way each and every time. We'd all look like a bunch of robots if we did that.
> 
> If a form is modified and the movements that differ from the original have a plausible bunkai, what is 'wrong' with that, isn't that how the 'art' evolves and moves forward? Is the issue with calling the form 'hon suki' when it may not be exactly how it was performed originally?


 

I do not think we need any antagonism btwn kempo as an art and kempo as a science.  If done properly both will be satisfied.  IMHO

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> dear marlon,
> Aren't you in Canada? You mentioned coming "down" so it threw me off. New with a passport being needed to go to the "great white north",don't think i can go up there....
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


 
I am the one far away so i always plan to go to the States.  the passport thing is just for flying at this point, i think not driving.  And Joe your input is always helpful.
be well

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Matt

marlon said:


> since we had the same teachers Matt, i guess it is obviuos that we have the same version except for one or two small angle differences and hand positions.
> BTW in case i did not say it before your site is a great gift to the SK community!! Thank you for all the work and dedication you put into this for us.
> Respectfully,
> marlon



Thank you Marlon - you are too kind. Since the one you have should be very close to mine, it should be very obvious the 'oops' in the form. Can you tell this was filmed when I was deep in learning the Kempo-Jutsu forms? There's a small accidental merger. I've been meaning to re-shoot it. 

Thanks again, and I'd always be happy to see you to train together. 

Matt


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## Matt

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Been reading this thread and I just wanted to give in some imput.
> The form simply stated has always come from the Chow/Chun lineage. I was honored and privilaged to have Bill Chun Jr. demonstrate the Hansuki form at his first appearence in Rhode Island. I will always be greatful for him taking the time and sharing that with myself and the privilaged few in attendence at that time. Mr. Chun is a private person who is sincere in his life and study of the arts. He speaks from his heart and I appreciate that.
> In regards to the form itself, I beleive that he is happy that something from the legacy of his father is being perpectuated through generations in any incarnation. I have tried over the last few years to acertain the proper history,reason & rationale behind the form. I have placed some of my findings on an instructional DVD entitled "Hansuki:History & Tradition" in which I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Jr. for teaching this form to him. I also detail out various aspects,techniques and actions to attempt to educate kempoists to some of the information I had gleamed from my research. I clearly state that it is the Shaolin Kempo version of the form. I plan to do a second DVD in the form & application including different individuals performing the form to show the diversity of the formats that have been created over the years.
> I have placed a small unfinished segment of the DVD on youtube for your perusal.
> As to whether Mr. Chun will teach this form to others, I would think he will reserve that for those of his personal students he deems worthy of learning it after a proper ammount of dedicated study. I am available to discuss this form and shaolin kempo in general for those of you interested.
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE



Hey Joe-

It was great to get a chance to visit the other day. I've been checking Youtube since I saw the clip you were prepping - glad to hear it is up. I will always be grateful to Professor Chun, jr. for showing the form - it was an entirely unexpected act of kindness that went way above and beyond at that seminar. 

Matt


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## youngbraveheart

KENPOJOE said:


> ...I have placed some of my findings on an instructional DVD entitled "Hansuki:History & Tradition" in which I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Jr. for teaching this form to him...


 
KENPOJOE, pardon me, but did you mean: "..._I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun _*Sr*_. for teaching this form to him_..."? (i.e. GM William Chun Sr. created the Hansuki and taught it to Great GM William Chow.)

Johnny


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## KENPOJOE

youngbraveheart said:


> KENPOJOE, pardon me, but did you mean: "..._I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun _*Sr*_. for teaching this form to him_..."? (i.e. GM William Chun Sr. created the Hansuki and taught it to Great GM William Chow.)
> 
> Johnny


Hi folks!
Yes, Johnny, It was a simple typo, I meant Sr. in reference to him [Sr.] having originally taught the form.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

youngbraveheart said:


> KENPOJOE, pardon me, but did you mean: "..._I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun _*Sr*_. for teaching this form to him_..."? (i.e. GM William Chun Sr. created the Hansuki and taught it to Great GM William Chow.)
> 
> Johnny


Hi folks!
Dear Johnny,
RE: the I.E comment you wrote, that is incorrect. 
i have always clearly stated that Prof. Chow Taught Hansuki to Bill Chun Sr, who as Prof. Chow's main student and Protoge' at that time, then in turn taught it to Prof. Cerio.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## RevIV

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Johnny,
> RE: the I.E comment you wrote, that is incorrect.
> i have always clearly stated that Prof. Chow Taught Hansuki to Bill Chun Sr, who as Prof. Chow's main student and Protoge' at that time, then in turn taught it to Prof. Cerio.
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


 
I was under the understanding that GM Chun Sr. created the form and presented to Prof. Chow who said--good- teach it?  the whole paraphrasing part is made up, but i the sequence of how the form became a form is how i know it.  Chun sr. created it.
Jesse


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## youngbraveheart

RevIV said:


> I was under the understanding that GM Chun Sr. created the form and presented to Prof. Chow who said--good- teach it? the whole paraphrasing part is made up, but i the sequence of how the form became a form is how i know it. Chun sr. created it.
> Jesse


 
...Hey Jesse, you're right...Master Chun (Jr) and I had a conversation this afternoon...he said that his father showed the form to Great Grandmaster "Professa" Chow, who approved it.


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## youngbraveheart

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Johnny,
> RE: the I.E comment you wrote, that is incorrect.
> i have always clearly stated that Prof. Chow Taught Hansuki to Bill Chun Sr, who as Prof. Chow's main student and Protoge' at that time, then in turn taught it to Prof. Cerio.
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


 
See reply above...


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## Matt

youngbraveheart said:


> ...Hey Jesse, you're right...Master Chun (Jr) and I had a conversation this afternoon...he said that his father showed the form to Great Grandmaster "Professa" Chow, who approved it.



Thanks for clearing that up. I've thought that was the case, but it's nice to hear it from an 'official source'.


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## youngbraveheart

Matt said:


> Thanks for clearing that up. I've thought that was the case, but it's nice to hear it from an 'official source'.


 
...Matt, how about a "_reliable_ source?"...:boing1:


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## Matt

youngbraveheart said:


> ...Matt, how about a "_reliable_ source?"...:boing1:



Next time I see him, I'll ask how reliable you are.:rofl:

Sounds good to me.


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## youngbraveheart

I found KENPOJOE's Hansuki video on Youtube:


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## youngbraveheart

youngbraveheart said:


> I found KENPOJOE's Hansuki video on Youtube:


 
I suppose it's too late to edit the DVD...


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## RevIV

youngbraveheart said:


> I suppose it's too late to edit the DVD...


 

Here's what i do know about the DVD - i own it -  He says that he is doing the villari variation and interpretations down the line.  As far as i know, he has been Shown the Chun version, but was asked not to do it for anyone.  He has obliged by that and not put it to DVD.  What you saw in his version is the way most people do it in the Villari and down the lineage version.  Including myself,  of course i would drop it in a second and teach the true version if Master Chun Jr. were to make it a public form.  Also I am very excited that there is going to be another Kenpo/Kempo Unity seminar in the new england area in the fall of 08'.  Loved the last one cant wait to learn at the next one.
Jesse


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## JTKenpo

Looking forward to another Unity Seminar!!  Keep us posted.


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## youngbraveheart

youngbraveheart said:


> I suppose it's too late to edit the DVD...


 
Jesse, I was only referring to GM Chun Sr. getting his due credit for the Hansuki...unlike what I heard mentioned in the video clip...

I enjoy watching Brian do it (Hansuki), but since it's only for selected blackbelts in GSJK, I don't even bother trying to memorize any moves whenever I see it being done...this is the same for the higher advanced forms that Bobby does...if I see an effective move (strike) that can be added into our techniques, then I'll take note...only when my teacher thinks it's time to learn another form is when I pay full attention to that form.

That's great news that this fall will be another Kenpo/Kempo Unity Seminar out in MA (our summer trip to MA last year was our best vacation ever).  I was privileged to be apart of the seminar in memory of Great GM Chow in SF last year. I was just happy to be there (working)...


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## RevIV

youngbraveheart said:


> Jesse, I was only referring to GM Chun Sr. getting his due credit for the Hansuki...unlike what I heard mentioned in the video clip...
> quote]
> 
> Ohhh,  I have not watched the youtube clip because i own the dvd.  On the full dvd he does give credit to Master Chun Sr. and Prof. Chow.  I will however check to see who he gives credit to for the creation of the form.  I know they are both mentioned but the dvd is almost 2 hours i believe.  As far as the Unity seminar goes I will post more on that when Master Chun Jr. tells me its good and everyone involved is on the same page.  but for those out here in New England, I am putting on a seminar June 1st with Prof. Joe Rebelo, Sigung Rudy Duncan, and Guru Dan Donzella.  this should be an awesome event too.
> In Peace
> Jesse


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## youngbraveheart

RevIV said:


> Ohhh, I have not watched the youtube clip because i own the dvd...for those out here in New England, I am putting on a seminar June 1st with Prof. Joe Rebelo, Sigung Rudy Duncan, and Guru Dan Donzella. this should be an awesome event too...


 
...around 1:48 of the video (similar to what was posted above)

Sounds like MA on June 1st is the place to be...good luck with the event...can't wait to see pics or videos posted!


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## Gentle Fist

Sorry a little late (4 years!) posting on this but figured I would add what little extra I know...   Looking at the versions on the internet of Hansuki/Honsuki, I would say Villari added quite a few moves to the form after learning it from Frank Cerio.  I have the version Cerio taught in the early 70's and must say it is very basic compared to the versions posted on youtube and other kenpo websites.  I have also noticed that the "newer" versions don't have a lot of emphasis on deep stance work and breathing.  The strikes and blocks are pretty close though.  I would post a video but I was asked not to by my instructor.

My hansuki = chun/cerio/seavey/me


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## punisher73

fistlaw720 said:


> Sorry a little late (4 years!) posting on this but figured I would add what little extra I know... Looking at the versions on the internet of Hansuki/Honsuki, I would say Villari added quite a few moves to the form after learning it from Frank Cerio. I have the version Cerio taught in the early 70's and must say it is very basic compared to the versions posted on youtube and other kenpo websites. I have also noticed that the "newer" versions don't have a lot of emphasis on deep stance work and breathing. The strikes and blocks are pretty close though. I would post a video but I was asked not to by my instructor.
> 
> My hansuki = chun/cerio/seavey/me



Would your instructor allow some written descriptions of the techniques as to how they vary?


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## punisher73

RevIV said:


> Here's what i do know about the DVD - i own it - He says that he is doing the villari variation and interpretations down the line. As far as i know, he has been Shown the Chun version, but was asked not to do it for anyone. He has obliged by that and not put it to DVD. What you saw in his version is the way most people do it in the Villari and down the lineage version. Including myself, of course i would drop it in a second and teach the true version if Master Chun Jr. were to make it a public form. Also I am very excited that there is going to be another Kenpo/Kempo Unity seminar in the new england area in the fall of 08'. Loved the last one cant wait to learn at the next one.
> Jesse




Does anyone have information on how to order the DVD?


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## John James

Dear Fellow Martial Artists,
Master Bill Chun, Jr. would like to comment once and for all about his father's form, Hansuki, and the variations and confusion that surround it. Below is his direct response.

Sincerely,
Sensee John James

_To whom it may concern:

My name is William Chun, Jr. It has been brought to my attention concerning the original ArtForm of the Hansuki, which was created by William Chun, Sr., whom to many of the East Coast is the Grandmaster of your Branches and is the Roots to William Chow (Great Grandmaster).This is not a subject of who did what. I have seen the disgrace of what is a sacred form that was not even close to the Hansuki form that only three or at most four true Chow/Chun, Sr. studentshad learned. It&#8217;s just unfortunate that there are so many in the Kenpo/Kempo system that doesn&#8217;t know this fine Art. I remember at one of my seminars, a student asked me, &#8220;Master Chun, why is your Kenpo/Kempo different?&#8221; I replied back, &#8220;It&#8217;s the Original Arts Style of theChow/Chun, Sr. roots, so it&#8217;s your Arts Style that has become different.&#8221; I knew then that I had a hard road and a lot of work ahead of me. So I guess this will be one of my friendship messages concerning the form Hansuki.

What I understand of this form that comes out of the East Coast is that it doesn&#8217;t have any meaning or character compared to the Original. This is the only difference. From the original form Hansuki, which was created by Grandmaster Chun, Sr., it&#8217;s just unfortunate that others don&#8217;t respect a true form of creativity. Others use the excuse by saying, &#8216;They are doing it out of respect for the Creator.&#8217; This is why they do it. But how can one understand what they don&#8217;t feel when they are blinded by their own demons. Diluting is what&#8217;s being done to this form. I&#8217;m writing this message to all Kenpo/Kempo practitioners, &#8216;Study your Fist of Law and theChina/Empty Hand&#8217;.

I have met and still keep in touch with many of the East Coast students from all parts of the NewEngland area. I&#8217;ve taught and seen really good Kenpo/Kempo practitioners, but I understand the dilemma of being between a hard rock and loyalty. When an Artist uses his brush, he knows that adding will keep the similarity to the original vision.

I never use television, books, DVD&#8217;s, or tapes for training of one&#8217;s Art Style. I understand my duties as a Representative and Successor to the Chow/Chun, Sr&#8217;s lineage and roots. The International Self Defense Federation/Association will continue to share and educate the future students of the Art Style of Kenpo/Kempo.

This is not up for discussion. We can talk about it, but would we all really understand it? I learned through my training the hands and feet are not going to be used more than your mind.Which leads to not wasting my energy from, or for one&#8217;s point of views of making lies in of one&#8217;s own beliefs. When you look at a picture and want to add to this picture, you are not only visualizing, you&#8217;re creating from others.

The damage has been done. And for my part, it&#8217;s simply correcting who the true creator of the form Hansuki is. And for those who sent their concerns and dismay of what happened to this form, I send my Mahalo (I thank you) for that and want to insure all of you that it&#8217;s in good hands.

May all of you be safe and till we get to meet again, god bless and nui loa.


Aloha and Mahalo,​
Master Chun, Jr. 
_


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## KENPOJOE

Hi folks!
I read the post with Bill Chun Jr's letter and felt that I should address it and the topic of Hansuki in general.
1.Many years ago,When I originally learned the Hansuki form as it was taught in New England through Fred  Villari's Original "United Studios of Self Defense" chain, It was known that the form had come from Prof.Chow & that Prof. Nick Cerio had learned the form & brought it back with him to Rhode Island.I started to research Prof.Chow's art from whoever I could find.From Ed Parker to Kimo Ferreira to Sam Kuoha to Bill Marcirelli etc...I have interviewed,attended seminars,taken notes and asked questions to get greater insight into this particular form. I initially met Bill Chun Jr. at one of the first "Gathering of Eagles" in Las Vegas and it was one of the high points of that year's event. Prof.Chun was a humble,unassuming person who was taken aback by the attention he was receiving! I found him to be a wonderful person and it was great introduction to Prof.Chow & his father's art. Afterwards,I would ask him about the Hansuki form and his response was "Why do you want to know about that?" in a simple questioning tone. I then explained that the form was our only legacy to Prof.Chow in a form format.At that time,He did not mention that his father had created the form.But,again,it was not a big deal at that point.
2.Later,I was overjoyed to find that the board of Prof.Cerio's system [of which John James was a member] was bringing in Bill Chun Jr. for a seminar in Rhode Island.I attended the seminar along with Matt Barnes. During the seminar, I asked Prof.Chun regarding the "double angled" lua limb destructions that Prof.Chow performed in his techniques.He was surprised I knew about that aspect of his art and we discussed a few techniques that encompassed that element.I remember Matt Barnes saying tome later "How come what we are going over isn't what You were going over with Bill Chun?" my response:"I asked him a question!". After the seminar,I asked him about Hansuki & again,He was surprised we knew about the form and we explained it was our link to his legacy & asked him to perform the form.He accepted & performed the original form twice.I did not record it out of respect to Prof.Chun & was glad that Matt and others got to see him perform the form.
Through my research,I found that Prof.Cerio was taught the form by Bill Chun Sr [who was Prof.Chow's protege' at that time] and returned to Rhode Island. He realized Prof.Chow's styke was drastically different. He discussed this with his wife at the time,Nancy Lee Cerio. Because of material presented to him,Perhaps he decided to incorporate different aspects of Prof.Chow's art into the form. From my research,I found that Fred Villari had learned the form from Prof. Cerio's brother,Frank Cerio. 
I decided to create a video on the form due to the research I had done at that given time.to assist Shaolin Kempo practitioners in their given version of the form that had the additional material not taught in the Original form from Prof.Chow & Chun's lineage. I mentioned Prof Chun [but was not aware that Prof.Chun Sr. had actually created the form for Prof.Chow & he [chow] authorized it's use & allowed it to be taught]in the video at that time.
Since then,Ihad seen Prof.Chun at 2 new england based events,at both of them,he has been kind enough toelaborate on his art,often showing me various points of the "Tien Hsueh" aspects of his art,[but you gotta look close & know what he's showing to you] For that I am truly blessed & forever grateful! He and his wife have always been kind to me and their "down to earth" approach is refreshing & heartfelt. At one event,I passed a copy of the videoI had made so he could see what was being taught in the Shaolin Kempo tradition as far as Hansuki was concerned.I asked him if he would take a look because there were additional material & I wanted to find out if it was still taught in the Chow-Chun tradition.
Awhile later,I received a call from John James stating to me that Prof.Chun had seen my video and was very upset & was so angry that he had brought the video into his garage taken a hammer to it! I was devastated.I had never meant to upset someone who I had great respect for, Who had shared parts of his family's legacy as a sign of good faith,friendship & camaraderie'. I contacted one of his Black Belts via EMail and sent a formal Apology for what had transpired & asked for forgiveness. After awhile,I received a phone callfrom Prof. Chun and in our conversation,he said an important statement"I would never destroy a gift given in friendship". I apologized profusely and we spoke regarding the reason why I passed along the video to him in the first place. I saw him at another event afterwards & spoke to him & enjoyed another seminar with him!
4. I have not sold this video in any major format. Basically this is the most press I've gotten about the now DVD in ages,Every once in a blue moon someone will email me regarding it because there is nothing available in electronic media other than a person just performing the form.Whenever anyone asks me regarding the form,I clearly the corrected history as I know it & clearly state Prof.Chun Sr as being the creator of the form as a student & personal student of Prof.Chow.& that he [Chun Sr.] taught the form to prof.Cerio. I also recommend Prof.Bill Chun Jr to learn the Original version of hansuki & the source of the Chow-Chun lineage.
In closing,let me state that what I have offered was not on a major level. No one saw any full page ads in Black Belt magazine,no webpages dedicated to sales of that video/dvd.I'mnot putting any down payments on a porche from the sales of this.I might have sold enough copies to count on less than 2 hands over a decade+1/2 plus! If I am one of the people that this letter was aimed at,Once again,I apologize. I have the utmost respect for Prof.Chun & his family's art. Simply stated;this is probably the most press this has gotten in awhile & I definitely don't go out of my way to promote it.
I hope that I was of service,
Joseph P. Rebelo II
KENPOJOE



John James said:


> Dear Fellow Martial Artists,
> Master Bill Chun, Jr. would like to comment once and for all about his father's form, Hansuki, and the variations and confusion that surround it. Below is his direct response.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Sensee John James
> 
> _To whom it may concern:
> 
> My name is William Chun, Jr. It has been brought to my attention concerning the original ArtForm of the Hansuki, which was created by William Chun, Sr., whom to many of the East Coast is the Grandmaster of your Branches and is the Roots to William Chow (Great Grandmaster).This is not a subject of who did what. I have seen the disgrace of what is a sacred form that was not even close to the Hansuki form that only three or at most four true Chow/Chun, Sr. studentshad learned. Its just unfortunate that there are so many in the Kenpo/Kempo system that doesnt know this fine Art. I remember at one of my seminars, a student asked me, Master Chun, why is your Kenpo/Kempo different? I replied back, Its the Original Arts Style of theChow/Chun, Sr. roots, so its your Arts Style that has become different. I knew then that I had a hard road and a lot of work ahead of me. So I guess this will be one of my friendship messages concerning the form Hansuki.
> 
> What I understand of this form that comes out of the East Coast is that it doesnt have any meaning or character compared to the Original. This is the only difference. From the original form Hansuki, which was created by Grandmaster Chun, Sr., its just unfortunate that others dont respect a true form of creativity. Others use the excuse by saying, They are doing it out of respect for the Creator. This is why they do it. But how can one understand what they dont feel when they are blinded by their own demons. Diluting is whats being done to this form. Im writing this message to all Kenpo/Kempo practitioners, Study your Fist of Law and theChina/Empty Hand.
> 
> I have met and still keep in touch with many of the East Coast students from all parts of the NewEngland area. Ive taught and seen really good Kenpo/Kempo practitioners, but I understand the dilemma of being between a hard rock and loyalty. When an Artist uses his brush, he knows that adding will keep the similarity to the original vision.
> 
> I never use television, books, DVDs, or tapes for training of ones Art Style. I understand my duties as a Representative and Successor to the Chow/Chun, Srs lineage and roots. The International Self Defense Federation/Association will continue to share and educate the future students of the Art Style of Kenpo/Kempo.
> 
> This is not up for discussion. We can talk about it, but would we all really understand it? I learned through my training the hands and feet are not going to be used more than your mind.Which leads to not wasting my energy from, or for ones point of views of making lies in of ones own beliefs. When you look at a picture and want to add to this picture, you are not only visualizing, youre creating from others.
> 
> The damage has been done. And for my part, its simply correcting who the true creator of the form Hansuki is. And for those who sent their concerns and dismay of what happened to this form, I send my Mahalo (I thank you) for that and want to insure all of you that its in good hands.
> 
> May all of you be safe and till we get to meet again, god bless and nui loa.
> 
> 
> Aloha and Mahalo,​
> Master Chun, Jr.
> _


----------



## John James

Dear Mr. Rebelo,
I hope all is well with you and your students. It has been a while since we've had the opportunity to meet. I was talking today with Master Chun, Jr. and he brought up the subject of your reply to his letter. He wished me to post on his behalf that he wasn't sure what you were apologizing for and that is was not necessary. However, if you feel the need to speak to him in person, he will be in the New England area in October of this year doing a Workshop. If this is your wish, please contact me privately, offline, and we can discuss this further. And since we're on the subject of your response, and that you mentioned my name prominently more than once, my reply to you did not involve the destruction of your tape with a 'hammer' but merely Master Chun, Jr. in his garage with a 'tire'. 

Sincerely,
Sensee John James


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## John James

Master Bill Chun, Jr., President of the GSJK/CKK Federation & the Kenpo/Kempo Lo Kahi Association, would like it known that the 'tire' referenced in the previous post is used for conditioning and development purposes in GSJK/CKK. 

Sincerely,
Sensee John James,
Vice President, Kenpo/Kempo Lo Kahi Association & GSJK/CKK Federation member


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## youngbraveheart

youngbraveheart said:


> ...so that's the *Hon*suki...who's version is that?



Master Bill Chun Jr. is seriously considering sharing the Original Hansuki, the form created by his father, Grandmaster Bill Chun, Sr, on DVD. He wasn't sure if the world was ready for it. I think "the world would eat it up!"


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## marlon

Thanks. It is similar to mine as well. I don't suppose you know where he learned his version, do you?

respectfully,
marlon


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## punisher73

youngbraveheart said:


> Master Bill Chun Jr. is seriously considering sharing the Original Hansuki, the form created by his father, Grandmaster Bill Chun, Sr, on DVD. He wasn't sure if the world was ready for it. I think "the world would eat it up!"



I would love to see it.  At some point, I think the art should be shared so it doesn't pass away and get lost.


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## youngbraveheart

punisher73 said:


> I would love to see it.  At some point, I think the art should be shared so it doesn't pass away and get lost.



Funny, I am not eager to see it (or learn it) even though I see Brian practicing it. I pay more attention to what I'm expected to know. I just know it's a special form only for certain few chosen blackbelts in the Chow/Chun art style. Heck, I may never even become blackbelt, or if I did, I may never be chosen to learn it.


----------

