# A different question about shin conditioning



## Jagermeister

Just so nobody blasts me, I searched and read all the threads relating to shin conditioning before posting here, and I still have a couple questions, regarding short-term shin conditioning, which I believe have not yet been addressed.

After all I've read, it seems pretty clear that shin conditioning, especially when done incorrectly and over long periods of time, can be pretty dangerous to your long-term health.  However, if you're gonna do Muay Thai, there is a certain amount of abuse that your shins will take regardless.  I'm new to MT, so I'm wondering if just a month or 2 of shin conditioning (light rolling, not hitting, with a padded bar or rod) would have long-term effects.

My second question is, if I do this every other day for a month or two, would this be enough time to become slightly desensitized?

I'm definitely not going to continue shin conditioning once I feel that the pain isn't as intense, but I'd like to just get a general idea of how long I can expect to work at it before I get the results I want, and what the lasting effects (20 years from now) may be, if any.  By the way, I'm planning on working on pads and bags as well, so the conditioning wouldn't come entirely from the "rolling."

Thanks, everyone.


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## green meanie

I think you'll see some results after a month or two but you'll probably have to work at this for six months to a year to get the kind of results you're really looking for. Deep bone bruising is serious business so you have to be careful not to get carried away and over do it when you're doing this type of conditioning. But if you're careful and patient you shouldn't have any problems in the short or long run.


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## Henderson

Shin conditioning?.....hmm....to be honest, I don't buy it.  You're not going to de-sensitize the shins.  A better way to look at this is that to are training your mind to ignore the pain, or at the least...build up your tolerance to the pain.  

Respects,

Frank


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## Andrew Green

Kick the bag, kick the forearm pads, spar.

That should cover your shin conditioning right there. Shin conditioning can be very dangerous, bone cancer dangerous, and should not be done.  Your body will adapt to what you do, no need to force it into things in that way.


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## 7starmantis

Its not about "de-sensitizing" at all. It does work and help, but like others have said, you must go slow, do it right, and have lots of patients. If you bruise badly or hurt yourself you un-do what you have been working for and must stop building, so its a delecate process. I would do it every day not every other and I would go at least 6 months. During that time you can increase but go very slowly. 

7sm

Note: If done correctly the dangers such as bone cancer can be avoided, but it is a risky behavior that needs to be done correctly, I would seek out the instruction of a qualified instructor to learn how to do it right.


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## AdrenalineJunky

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Kick the bag, kick the forearm pads, spar.
> 
> That should cover your shin conditioning right there. Shin conditioning can be very dangerous, bone cancer dangerous, and should not be done. Your body will adapt to what you do, no need to force it into things in that way.


 
Agreed. If you don't have a bag, go to the local tire shop and see how much a throw away will cost you. I've paid as little as 10 bucks; add some cheap rope and a tree. . .you have a bag. Tie the tire off at two places (10 and 2 o'clock) to restrict movement. There are lots of uses for old tires in Muay Thai.


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## green meanie

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Kick the bag, kick the forearm pads, spar.
> 
> That should cover your shin conditioning right there. Shin conditioning can be very dangerous, bone cancer dangerous, and should not be done. Your body will adapt to what you do, no need to force it into things in that way.


 
Does shin conditioning cause bone cancer? I've never heard of that. What scientific medical evidence is there to support this?


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## AdrenalineJunky

green meanie said:
			
		

> Does shin conditioning cause bone cancer? I've never heard of that. What scientific medical evidence is there to support this?


 
He meant that wrecking your shins is comparable to bone cancer; not that it causes bone cancer.


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## green meanie

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> He meant that wrecking your shins is comparable to bone cancer; not that it causes bone cancer.


 
Okay. Thanks for the clarification.


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## 7starmantis

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> He meant that wrecking your shins is comparable to bone cancer; not that it causes bone cancer.



How so?

7sm


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## AdrenalineJunky

7starmantis said:
			
		

> How so?
> 
> 7sm


 
He was using it as an analogy, not to be taken literally.  *The point*: extreme conditioning methods trash your shins, not condition them. The term "condition," itself, implies building tolerance over time; this can be done through bag work, pad work and sparring, first with shin protectors, then light without, finally, full-contact without shin protectors.


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## Jagermeister

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> ...this can be done through bag work, pad work and sparring, first with shin protectors, then light without, finally, full-contact without shin protectors.



Are you serious?  We don't use shin protectors at my school for pad and bag work, and there are a couple of beginners there, myself included.  Is this unusual?  I thought the shin protectors were just for sparring.  I'd like to know now if my teacher is actually a MT nazi.  We've also already done some blocking drills that have my shins bruised as hell.  He's a Muay Thai nazi, isn't he?


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## green meanie

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> He was using it as an analogy, not to be taken literally.  *The point*: extreme conditioning methods trash your shins, not condition them. The term "condition," itself, implies building tolerance over time; this can be done through bag work, pad work and sparring, first with shin protectors, then light without, finally, full-contact without shin protectors.


 
Agreed but does "light rolling, not hitting, with a padded bar or rod" qualify as extreme? Couldn't this be considered conditioning if it was done carefully, over a given period time?


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## green meanie

Jagermeister said:
			
		

> Are you serious? We don't use shin protectors at my school for pad and bag work, and there are a couple of beginners there, myself included. Is this unusual? I thought the shin protectors were just for sparring. I'd like to know now if my teacher is actually a MT nazi. We've also already done some blocking drills that have my shins bruised as hell. He's a Muay Thai nazi, isn't he?


 
The real question is, do you like the training?


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## AdrenalineJunky

Jagermeister said:
			
		

> Are you serious? We don't use shin protectors at my school for pad and bag work, and there are a couple of beginners there, myself included. Is this unusual? I thought the shin protectors were just for sparring. I'd like to know now if my teacher is actually a MT nazi. We've also already done some blocking drills that have my shins bruised as hell. He's a Muay Thai nazi, isn't he?


 
You mis-read that. 





> ". . .and sparring, first with shin protectors, then light without, finally, full-contact without shin protectors."


 
No he is not. I routinely have beginners do light blocking drills w/out pads, just so they realize what degree of conditioning they will need to be able to spar w/out shin protectors.


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## Jagermeister

green meanie said:
			
		

> The real question is, do you like the training?



Don't get me wrong.  I love the training.  It's more fun than I've had sober in a looooong time.    But I'd just like to know if I should totally trust my teacher (he's a professional fighter) or if I should be thinking of ways to train more safely since I've got no aspirations of fighting pro.  I've read more than one nightmare story on this site about the consequences of improper shin conditioning.  I don't mind the pain - I just want to be sure I don't have any regrets about this training years down the road.


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## AdrenalineJunky

green meanie said:
			
		

> Agreed but does "light rolling, not hitting, with a padded bar or rod" qualify as extreme? Couldn't this be considered conditioning if it was done carefully, over a given period time?


 
I see very little purpose in doing so. Heck, if it makes you feel better, have at it.


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## green meanie

Jagermeister said:
			
		

> I don't mind the pain - I just want to be sure I don't have any regrets about this training years down the road.


 
I say keep going then.


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## Jagermeister

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> You mis-read that.
> 
> No he is not. I routinely have beginners do light blocking drills w/out pads, just so they realize what degree of conditioning they will need to be able to spar w/out shin protectors.



Gotcha.  I was a little worried for a minute.  Thanks.


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## AdrenalineJunky

Jagermeister said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong. I love the training. It's more fun than I've had sober in a looooong time.  But I'd just like to know if I should totally trust my teacher (he's a professional fighter) or if I should be thinking of ways to train more safely since I've got no aspirations of fighting pro. I've read more than one nightmare story on this site about the consequences of improper shin conditioning. I don't mind the pain - I just want to be sure I don't have any regrets about this training years down the road.


 
If you think you are doing too much, well. . .don't. But I'm thinking that your teacher's not insane. Most MT workouts are heavy duty. Maybe go for a month, take a month off to train on your own; go a month, take a month off. Like I've said before, there's only so much to learn in Muay Thai, the rest is training. I train on my own, with a few other guys, and have for years. I usually don't go to a gym unless I want some pointers on improving my strategy from the big-dogs; that and sparring guys I don't normally spar with. If you're not bashing your shins with sticks or kicking trees, and whatnot, your shins will be fine. If there is something wrong, like serious bruising, tell your Kru, he should be able to redesign a workout for you to give your shins a break. If not, then maybe you might think about training on your own, primarily.


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## 7starmantis

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> I see very little purpose in doing so. Heck, if it makes you feel better, have at it.



I see great purpose in it, but I think it can be done in different ways or methods aside from using a pole or rod. I'm more of the action type of person so I like doing the conditioning while working on other things, so actually performing kicks to condition is my advise. Starting on bags is the best (the softer the better) then move ot tightly packed bags, then you can move to partner drills, then live sparring.

7sm


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## AdrenalineJunky

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I see great purpose in it, but I think it can be done in different ways or methods aside from using a pole or rod. I'm more of the action type of person so I like doing the conditioning while working on other things, so actually performing kicks to condition is my advise. Starting on bags is the best (the softer the better) then move ot tightly packed bags, then you can move to partner drills, then live sparring.
> 
> 7sm


 
Well, perhaps it's not useless, but rolling something on your shins and actually having your shins impact something are two very different things; and I'm betting they serve different functions of conditioning. The latter, in nature, is more functional to Muay Thai. At least, that's my opinion; I don't expect everyone to agree. That minor disagreement aside, I agree with everything you said, with one other minor exception: beginners should be doing all of that immediately, albeit, lightly. Start with light bags, then move to the heavier banana bag, then thai pads, then sparring drills then light sparring with lots of pads and strict attention from the trainer (since I'm not a licensed instructor), Kru, or Ajarn. In Thailand, since most fighters belong to a camp for the sole purpose of becoming professional fighters, it's essential that they are conditioned to, and do, fight as soon as possible, and are in a position to win the purse.


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## MJS

I would think that starting off slow, with the rolling method would be best.  Any time we start something new, it should be done slow IMO, gradually working up to more intensity.  I have seen people doing both methods though, the rolling and the hitting.

Mike


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## silat

Jagermeister said:
			
		

> After all I've read, it seems pretty clear that shin conditioning, especially when done incorrectly and over long periods of time, can be pretty dangerous to your long-term health. However, if you're gonna do Muay Thai, there is a certain amount of abuse that your shins will take regardless. I'm new to MT, so I'm wondering if just a month or 2 of shin conditioning (light rolling, not hitting, with a padded bar or rod) would have long-term effects.


 
Jagermeister,

Rolling is fine to start out with as well as tapping to condition the shins to begin kicking the bag. Roll with a glass bottle and tap with a rolled up magazine everyday for a month then your shins will be ready to slam the heavy bag.

Whatever type of shin conditioning you do one should always use a good conditioning liniment such as Dit Da Jow or Balur Oil. These liniments will toughen the skin & strengthen shins and keep the bruising down or heal injured shins.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester


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## 7starmantis

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> Well, perhaps it's not useless, but rolling something on your shins and actually having your shins impact something are two very different things; and I'm betting they serve different functions of conditioning. The latter, in nature, is more functional to Muay Thai. At least, that's my opinion; I don't expect everyone to agree. That minor disagreement aside, I agree with everything you said, with one other minor exception: beginners should be doing all of that immediately, albeit, lightly. Start with light bags, then move to the heavier banana bag, then thai pads, then sparring drills then light sparring with lots of pads and strict attention from the trainer (since I'm not a licensed instructor), Kru, or Ajarn. In Thailand, since most fighters belong to a camp for the sole purpose of becoming professional fighters, it's essential that they are conditioned to, and do, fight as soon as possible, and are in a position to win the purse.


I can see your point. I think the two methods actually arrive at the same destination, but either way. I'm not sure I understand what you meant about beginners doing all of it immediately. Do you mean they should be doing soft bags, harder bags, partner drills, and free sparring all immediately? 

7sm


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## AdrenalineJunky

> I'm not sure I understand what you meant about beginners doing all of it immediately. Do you mean they should be doing soft bags, harder bags, partner drills, and free sparring all immediately?


Yes, in principle; for example you say free sparring, but there can be set levels of contact and restricted areas. For example, just boxing, and nothing to the face. Also, it should be noted that the guys I train with are adults. As such, I see no purpose in _not _exposing them to everything they will be doing; albeit, at lower intensity and contact levels. I never push them, or try to make them feel like they should do more. I train them for free, they show up we work out, we have a good time. Trust me, training once a week, it took them a while to withstand a full work out. But that's not what I'm talking about, going all-out right away. I want people to have an opportunity to test what I'm showing them, as I'm showing it to them. I've never been fond of conceptualizing to the point where people can become skeptical; I want them to see that it works. 

Of course we're not even addressing shadow sparring and sparring drills. It's a progressive process, it's not like I'm just tossing them gear and having them go at it. In every session there should be warm-up: run, rope, shadow boxing, bag work, pad work; drills: upper body bag, upper body pad, lower body bag, lower body pad; combination drills: mixed combos on bag and pads; shadow sparring: no-to-light (and I mean light) contact, to focus on offensive, defensive and counter-offensive strategy--allowing you to try things without the consequence of getting hurt; sparring drills: like combination drills, but where both partners are throwing and blocking/slipping, so if you're off, there is a chance of being hit--again, light contact; and sparring: set contact and set areas. First the technique, then drill it 'till they know it, then explain how to use it, and let them try. That way, if they don't feel right about something, they are in a position to raise questions about it right away. 

I have gotten way off-topic, and would like to apologize to the original poster. As to the original post; I'm not going to say that someone else's method is _wrong. _If you want to condition your shins and don't have a bag, there are plenty of ways to make a home-made "bag." That's my suggestion; people say rolling stuff on your shins helps, but I've never had it do anything for me. Then again, I've been kicking bags since I was thirteen, lol. . .that might have something to do with it. I don't think rolling devices will condition your shins any faster than training, unless you're not training, of course.


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## 7starmantis

Yeah, on topic, I think we agree. Its a process that has to begin and progressively lead to harder and more advanced contact. I wouldn't advise a person who has never conditioned theri shin whatsoever to start with hard contact partner drills, but contact drills with a pertner can be donre quite light. Also, its not everyday you have a pertner. I would heavily advise doign it more than once a week, I would advise doing it everyday at least for 3 months or so. I think the point of rollin gsomething is to condition when you have no partner or bag. It works the same its just a difference method. Its usually done at a beginner level anyway.

7sm


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## Jagermeister

Having been training for a little while now, I can see why a lot of people don't bother with conditioning.  My shins are freshly bruised daily as it is from hitting the leg kick pad, thai pads, and heavy bag.  I really don't think I could take much more!  I just ordered some dit da jow, so hopefully that will help out a bit as well.


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## Odin

I found kicking the hard bags to be the best form of conditioning,since starting muay thai Ive heard hundreds of myths about shin coinditioning  and the dangers and what you should and shouldnt do...so what i did was hit my Kru in the shin with a broom stick! (WARNING:i happen to be very good friends with him if you just started you class i dont think you should attack kru witout asking!) he barely flinched and so I asked him what he did to get his shins that way since that was the overall result I wanted to achieve..and then listened.''kick the hard bag everyday at least 200 on each leg...and then roll your knuckles down your shin when ever you have 5-10mins or so to spare no matter where you are, even waiting for a bus,or waiting for your girlfriend to get ready when ever you can,they will be come conditioned in no time''..so thats what I do...but sometimes I do get bored and then just walk around randomly shining things!


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## Muay Thai Knee

LOL Yeah don't hit Kru. Bad idea.


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## Jagermeister

From my experience as a beginner, I'm not sure I would agree with the hard bag idea.  I've suffered the worst bruises from hitting low on the heavy bag where it's the hardest, and I don't think that the idea of "the more severe the bruising, the better" holds up.  I'm assuming also that you train like we do, hitting as hard as you can with each kick.  In fact, I would say that the bruising from the heavy bag has hurt my shin conditioning, if anything, because I had to take it easy afterwards for a day or two to allow time for healing.  I just don't think it's good to keep banging away on something that hard when the shins are that tender.  Again, this is just my own experience, as a beginner.  Any thoughts from the veterans here?

Edit:  An afterthought - I think the difference is that with thai pads, for example, the impact is distributed more evenly along the shin, whereas the impact from the heavy bag is focused and directed more or less on one specific point, which can lead to deeper bruising, which, imo, is not the goal of careful shin conditioning.


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## Odin

http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue6/shin.shtml

Check that it has some alright info..


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## Jagermeister

Thanks Odin.  That's a helpful site, but the text sort of runs out at the end.  Do you know how the rest of it reads?


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## Jagermeister

Okay, I used my brain for a minute and I checked the page source. I'll post it here since the formatting of that page was a little screwed up.



> "So It's all about deadening nerves?"
> 
> Not entirely. As stated above it is also a psychological process. Another thing to help condition shins is to condition the muscles that are surrounding the shins. These muscles are usually worked out from the intense amounts of running and skipping a Thai boxer will do. The Thai style of running, whereby you strike the road/floor with the ball of your feet and stay on your toes, works the Calf muscles which in turn builds the muscle defenses on the side of the shin. As is the same with skipping.
> 
> So remember ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, train hard but train smart and train safe!
> 
> Keep your guard up and Chok Dee!


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## Odin

Jagermeister said:
			
		

> Okay, I used my brain for a minute and I checked the page source. I'll post it here since the formatting of that page was a little screwed up.


 
That stuff is true your calf and surrounding muscles support your shin making your shin stronger and if as my kru said if you have a wooden stick then hit it against a stick made of glass the glass stick will break then if you hit that same wooden stick against a metal pole the wooden stick will break...see that video where the guys shin snaps..if he had stronger calf's he might have avoided that..check this link out it has loads of different exercises for building you calfs up.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exercises.php?MainMuscle=Calves


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## Odin

or even simpler just walk around on your tip toes when ever you can that works a treat.


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## Jagermeister

Odin said:
			
		

> ...see that video where the guys shin snaps..if he had stronger calf's he might have avoided that...



Although I agree with you on the previous points you made, I don't think any amount of calf strength can prevent something like that from happening.  I've been told that many times breaks like that are a result of a preexisting stress fracture that went untreated.


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## Odin

Jagermeister said:
			
		

> Although I agree with you on the previous points you made, I don't think any amount of calf strength can prevent something like that from happening. I've been told that many times breaks like that are a result of a preexisting stress fracture that went untreated.


 
Yeah true,but trust me good supporting muslces are very important.


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