# Judo: Forms Good or Forms Bad?



## Doc_Jude (Nov 15, 2007)

Apparently on various forums, Kata/Waza have taken on a negative light. The reigning Internet Judo experts seem to believe that forms are unnecessary and actually a waste of time, while historically both Kano-sensei and Mifune-sensei recommend bi-weekly form training for those that appear to have bad technique. They recommended form training & not more sparring/randori.

Now, the blatant rejection of forms and form analysis (bunkai) would seem to be common among many practitioners, competitors, and instructors in the modern age. 

Do you agree or disagree? Are forms valuable tools, or would you rather throw them away and just spar? Are forms of value to the senior martial artist, or can they be "outgrown"?


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## MarkBarlow (Nov 15, 2007)

I've always enjoyed studying kata.  It helps me fine-tune my technique and allows me to see details I would probably overlook during randori.  Kata also allows judoka to continue to train after their competition days are over.  

If I had to guess why kata has fallen out of disfavor, I'd say it's because there isn't an immediate reward.  Unlike shiai or randori, there isn't a winner and loser.  Pats on the back are rare and, in all probability, you'll never win a medal regardless of how good your kata may be.  Kata is its own reward.


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## Omar B (Nov 15, 2007)

Ok, so I don't do judo but I've gotta chime in on the whole Kata thing.  Students now don't get the improtance of kata/forms in their training.  To me kata is a chance to fine tune the little things in my form that should be fine tuned.  It's a way to check yourself constantly in relation to your instructor or higher grade students.  

But then we have all seen people get into a sparring situation and their form goes to hell.  It's like a disconnect between what the stance and movments should look like in order to get the full power out of them.


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## Doc_Jude (Nov 15, 2007)

Omar B said:


> Ok, so I don't do judo but I've gotta chime in on the whole Kata thing.  Students now don't get the improtance of kata/forms in their training.  To me kata is a chance to fine tune the little things in my form that should be fine tuned.  It's a way to check yourself constantly in relation to your instructor or higher grade students.
> 
> But then we have all seen people get into a sparring situation and their form goes to hell.  It's like a disconnect between what the stance and movments should look like in order to get the full power out of them.



Curiously enough, tho, the true authorities say that if you movement is lacking, do some forms. Not throw away randori/sparring, but you need to do some strict forms, clean up your muscle memory and get some quality movement in there. You don't learn timing and distance in forms, that's what sparring is for.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2007)

Im not a Judo guy but I do believe forms are important, as is sparing

Sparing without forms is just a brawl but forms without sparing are hollow.


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## Doc_Jude (Nov 15, 2007)

I read somewhere that if you translated martial arts into language, forms would be grammar and sparring would be composition. Can't really have one w/o the other. I thought this was a rather good comparison.


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## theletch1 (Nov 15, 2007)

Sounds like a great comparison to me.  The art that I study has 50 "classic" techniques but thousands of ways to apply said techniques.  My instructor has a saying "Think of the classic techniques as the letters of the alphabet and the applications as the words, sentences and paragraphs."  Classic technique for us is a highly stylized way of doing a technique so that the student is able to learn it and feel how the basic mechanics of the tech and energy flow/redirection happens.  Only enough energy or resistance is given to help nage perform the technique.  For us, this is kata.  The goal in classic technique is perfection.  Application for us is what we do during randori or aiki kuma kata.  If your classic technique is clean enough then your application will work even if you only hit 70% of the classics perfection.  Judo without kata would be application without the classic.  No solid base from which to draw the dynamic movement.


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## howard (Nov 15, 2007)

Can I ask you Judo guys a question?

In Judo, does the term _kata[i/i] refer to two-man practice of individual techniques?  Or are Judo kata done solo?

The reason I ask is that I've seen misunderstandings arise in threads like this before because kata can mean different things in different martial arts.  For example, in Daito-ryu training, kata refers to two-man practice of individual techniques, and is the primary means of transmitting the art to students.  So, each technique has its own kata.  I believe that this is also true in many, if not most, other styles of classical (Japanese) Jujutsu.

On the other hand, in Karate, kata refers to one-person practice of a formalized succession of techniques.  Until I started training in Jujutsu, this was what came to my mind when I heard the term kata.

Jeff, what does kata mean specifically in Nihon Goshin Aikido?_


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## theletch1 (Nov 15, 2007)

Howard, in Nihon Goshin you'll very rarely hear the word kata at all.  To us kata and classic technique are interchangeable.  It does, indeed, refer to two man practice in a very compliant mindset.  If I understand your main paragraph correctly then we see classic as you see kata.


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## Doc_Jude (Nov 15, 2007)

When I think about classic techniques, I remember a story that I heard about Charlie Nelson using an "X"block on some guy. 
The guy said,"Well, try that again and see how well it works." 
Charlie:"I only need it to work ONCE." 

'Nuff said...


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## Abbax8 (Nov 22, 2007)

Actually the feelings against kata have been around for a long time. I started judo in 1967 and heard the same discussions back then, and it semed like it had been going on for a long time.

Kata is a worthwhile study in my opinion, others who are better at shiai than me might disagree, some may agree.

The point of fact is Judo consists of Randori, Shiai and Kata. To neglect anyone area totally is to not truly study judo.

Peace

Dennis


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## arnisador (Nov 22, 2007)

I was a big fan of Karate kata, but much less so in Judo where it seems more artificial.


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## Abbax8 (Nov 22, 2007)

howard said:


> Can I ask you Judo guys a question?
> 
> In Judo, does the term _kata[i/i] refer to two-man practice of individual techniques?  Or are Judo kata done solo?
> 
> _


_

Most judo kata are done in pairs, however the first part of Zeirokyo Zenyo Tokumin Taiku (National Exercises for Physical Fitness) is done solo. 

Peace

Dennis_


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## matt.m (Nov 23, 2007)

You know I believe highly in the kata, if you can physically do them correctly.  I wear two leg braces and well there is no way I can properly teach kata to my students. Instead I have them do a lot of static falling and fits moving across the room.  Up one side and down the other.  Most of my students are cross training in Tae Kwon do, as I myself am as well as some in hapkido, me too.

Anyway, in Tae Kwon Do Poomsea/Kata is about the only part of the art I can do well enough to do it justice.  However, I feel that in Judo the Kata is not nearly important as the drill work of the fitting and throwing along with the ground work.

To learn Judo you must do a lot of reps of techniques, period.


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## Drac (Nov 24, 2007)

matt.m said:


> To learn Judo you must do a lot of reps of techniques, period.


 
I have to agree with matt...Now I am not a Judoka, I have seen enough of it to know that repetition is the key,that and learing how to fall correctly..


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## theletch1 (Nov 24, 2007)

Drac said:


> I have to agree with matt...Now I am not a Judoka, I have seen enough of it to know that repetition is the key,that and learing how to fall correctly..


I agree to an extent here, Drac.  Repetition is a key factor in the study of arts like judo and aikido but not simply to make the move hit muscle memory.  To me the repetition is more about learning to feel the flow of uke's energy and how it's going to react to your actions that make the repetition so important.  You're moving an entire person from point A to point B instead of just moving your own energy into uke with a punch.  There's a thousand minute adjustments that could be made during the throw or lock.  Doing paired kata will allow you to feel from point to point how the energy will change and the weight will shift.


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