# Chi Na in Tai Chi



## bigfootsquatch (Dec 7, 2007)

Hey everyone, I know most of you have more experience in Tai Chi than I do, so I wanted to ask what YOU think about the big fuss of the different "frames" of tai chi

Big/Large Frame
Middle Frame
Small Frame

Does it really matter all that much which one is practiced, since there have been great martial artists produced out of the frames? 

If I'm not making sense, let me know and I'll try to clear things up a bit


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 7, 2007)

Actually I am more confused by the Title since the post is about frames.

Traditionally Chen (Laojia and Xinjia) is not divided into small and large frame but there is xiaojia (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html) which would be small frame 

Yang style has been divided into Small, Medium and large frame

Small Frame being Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou, Yang Shaohou (He also may be Medium frame as well)
Medium Frame being Yang Jainhou
Large Frame being Yang Chengfu

I do not think Sun style or Zhaobao are divided into small and large frame but I am not 100% certain. And I do not believe that Wu or Wu/Hao are divided into small and large frame either but again I am not 100% certain.

But in my opinion the answer is it makes no difference as long as you train it correctly. There is some difference in application however. 

However as far as I can tell there are very few "actually" Yang style small of medium frame practitioners around so I am always very suspicious of anyone making the claim that they do the taiji of Yang Luchan or Yang Jainhou.


----------



## bigfootsquatch (Dec 7, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually I am more confused by the Title since the post is about frames.
> 
> Traditionally Chen (Laojia and Xinjia) is not divided into small and large frame but there is xiaojia (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html) which would be small frame
> 
> ...


 
I know Sun only has one frame, not familiar at all with Zhaobao...and sorry about the title confusion, I was originally asking about Chi Na and then changed the topic, but forgot about the subject, sorry!


----------



## kaizasosei (Dec 7, 2007)

i was just thinking about that recently.  i think that chinna techniques play a big role in tai chi forms.  one reason i came up with is because the movements  as combat applications involve deflection of strikes and redirection etc... which would seem to be more types of infighting as well as striking combinations.   i was thinking along the lines of people practicing chinna moves alone without a partner. therefore having to visualize the angles and the actual techniques.
just an idea.  but i myself am a big fan of chinna seizing and holding techniques.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 7, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> i was just thinking about that recently. i think that chinna techniques play a big role in tai chi forms. one reason i came up with is because the movements as combat applications involve deflection of strikes and redirection etc... which would seem to be more types of infighting as well as striking combinations. i was thinking along the lines of people practicing chinna moves alone without a partner. therefore having to visualize the angles and the actual techniques.
> just an idea. but i myself am a big fan of chinna seizing and holding techniques.


 
There is a lot of Qinna in taiji, more in Chen than in Yang in my opinion but there is Qinna in Yang. But all styles have Qinna, actally just about every, if not all, CMA styles have Qinna in them to varying degrees.


----------



## graychuan (Dec 8, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> i was just thinking about that recently. i think that chinna techniques play a big role in tai chi forms. one reason i came up with is because the movements as combat applications involve deflection of strikes and redirection etc... which would seem to be more types of infighting as well as striking combinations. i was thinking along the lines of people practicing chinna moves alone without a partner. therefore having to visualize the angles and the actual techniques.
> just an idea. but i myself am a big fan of chinna seizing and holding techniques.


 

Has anyone attended a workshop or clinic by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming? He teaches Chin na Techniques out of Shaolin and Tai Chi. The postures are there but the circles are much tighter. And Im with you man. I dig the Chin Na as well.


----------



## thedan (Dec 9, 2007)

Observation/question from a very inexperienced person:





bigfootsquatch said:


> ... I wanted to ask what YOU think about the big fuss of the different "frames" of tai chi ... Does it really matter all that much which one is practiced, ...


In the "external" arts, we practiced with large, exagerated movements in order to develope good, solid habits. Then the movments were reduced later for correct application. The "large frame" movments built the correct structure into each move. Muscles present in the proper sequence, joints align, and proper angular relationships are achieved so that each movment maximizes your structure while breakind down that of your opponent. This is all trained into synaptic/muscle memory so that when the movments are tightened to "small frame" they are still correct.

Could this be what is going on with taiji as well? 

Dan C


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 9, 2007)

graychuan said:


> Has anyone attended a workshop or clinic by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming? He teaches Chin na Techniques out of Shaolin and Tai Chi. The postures are there but the circles are much tighter. And Im with you man. I dig the Chin Na as well.


 
I have been to a couple but it was years ago (long before his California thing) and I did like them. His Taiji comes from a different branch of the Yang family, although he himself is not related to the Yang family of Taiji fame, his lineage comes from Yang Banhou who was Yang Chengfu's uncle. Most of the Yang style you see today comes from Yang Chengfu.


----------



## pete (Dec 10, 2007)

thedan said:
			
		

> Could this be what is going on with taiji as well?
> 
> Dan C


 Absolut-a-mente Dan-o. my teacher says to start with big circles, then learn to hide them in your sleeves. 



			
				graychuan said:
			
		

> Has anyone attended a workshop or clinic by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming?


 yes, i've been through all 6 'levels' of his chin na program. big circles and small circles are both used as appropriate. Dr Yang will tell you that 75-80% comes from White Crane style, but he has altered and modified much of it based on his personal experiences over the years. I do not practice White Crane, nor his Taiji, but find the chin na techniques can be applied within the styles i do practice.

pete


----------

