# Teaching  kids increases the size of your wallet but does not improve your teaching



## kenposikh (Sep 30, 2003)

I recently received a post that teaching children generally only increases the size of your wallet but does not improve you as a teacher. How many people agree or disagree with this statement and can you provide examples.


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## satans.barber (Sep 30, 2003)

Define 'kids' as an age bracket, then I'll answer the question 

An 11/12 year old is NOT the same to teach as a 7/8 year old, although they may both be classed as 'kids'...

Ian.


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## KEMPO DAVE (Sep 30, 2003)

Do you define yourself as a teacher? or a babysitter?  A good teacher will adapt the lesson to fit the class.  Babysitter only entertains.


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## kenposikh (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Define 'kids' as an age bracket, then I'll answer the question
> 
> An 11/12 year old is NOT the same to teach as a 7/8 year old, although they may both be classed as 'kids'...
> ...



Good point, lets take it as a generalisation and as inteneded by rephrasing the question.

"Does teaching children aged 7 - 15 improve you as a teacher or not"


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## kenposikh (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KEMPO DAVE _
> *Do you define yourself as a teacher? or a babysitter?  A good teacher will adapt the lesson to fit the class.  Babysitter only entertains. *



PLease see my rephrased question. I teach children aged 4 to 15 as well as adults.

This is not a slur on teaching children but a genuine query


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## MisterMike (Sep 30, 2003)

> Does teaching children aged 7 - 15 improve you as a teacher or not



I'd say it improves you as a teacher of children.

I guess I threw in the wallet fattner because it's being sold as Self Defense when I think it leans more towards Physical Education.

Before the flames start, please read my posts thoroughly. I'll always use comparisons, and not extremes like never and always.

I've seen it and been there and it generally leaves a sour taste in my mouth.


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## satans.barber (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenposikh _
> *Good point, lets take it as a generalisation and as inteneded by rephrasing the question.
> 
> "Does teaching children aged 7 - 15 improve you as a teacher or not" *



The answer has to be yes, definitely. 

I think kids make you be more inventive for a start, because they get bored so easily! Adults will happily work on the same thing for 10 or 15 minutes if it needs improving, but you've got no chance with the kids. I reckon that 5 minutes is the most you can spend on an activity before they want to do something new. In an hour class (less 15-20 mins warmup) that's quite a lot of things to come up with.

They also improve your temperement and patience, you can't just shout at the kids these days when they mess about, becase they'd just leave. I've treated a few sternly since I started teaching, because their behaviour was disrupting the class, and they've all gone! You have to find ways to make them behave without being too stern - I find ridicule works quite well! If they're not doing what they're meant to be doing because they weren't listening, I always ask them 'What are you doing?', followed by '...and what was it I just told you to do?' hehe! They soon start to listen when they can't reply infront of the rest of the class.

I have to say though, I don't enjoy teaching kids! Maybe it's just ours, but they really do seem like more of a chore than a pleasure. Still, they have their moments...

Ian.


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## kenposikh (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I'd say it improves you as a teacher of children.
> 
> I guess I threw in the wallet fattner because it's being sold as Self Defense when I think it leans more towards Physical Education.
> ...



Having read satans barbers post I believe that it also improves you as a person, increasing patience and inventiveness.

I think we are all mature adults here and won't necessarily take things the wrong way and start flaming each other.

Mind you if you keep it up I'll tell my Daddy


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## kenposikh (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *I have to say though, I don't enjoy teaching kids! Maybe it's just ours, but they really do seem like more of a chore than a pleasure. Still, they have their moments...
> 
> Ian. *



chore = pain = pleasure

kenpo = pain = pleasure

or am I just weird


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## MisterMike (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenposikh _
> *Having read satans barbers post I believe that it also improves you as a person, increasing patience and inventiveness.
> 
> I think we are all mature adults here and won't necessarily take things the wrong way and start flaming each other.
> ...



I think those are good qualities to develop. But as far as direct development of your Martial Art ability, you are going to get more pointed and detailed questions from an adult class. By this, you'll only deepen your understanding of the techniques and forms. This was the area I was concerned with.

No harm no foul


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenposikh _
> *Having read satans barbers post I believe that it also improves you as a person, increasing patience and inventiveness.
> 
> I think we are all mature adults here and won't necessarily take things the wrong way and start flaming each other.
> ...



To effectively teach kids I've had to become very creative in my approach and analogies to instill proper mechanics thruout a technique.    Lone Kimono becomes, Pick the booger and wipe it in their hair for the arm break, and Thrusting Salute becomes Pie in the Face for the heel palm.    Needless to say, this carries over to the adults and they get the analogies as well LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## satans.barber (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think those are good qualities to develop. But as far as direct development of your Martial Art ability, you are going to get more pointed and detailed questions from an adult class. By this, you'll only deepen your understanding of the techniques and forms. This was the area I was concerned with.
> 
> No harm no foul  *



Ah, but, the question wasn't does it improve your _MA ability_, it was does it improve your _teaching ability_...two different kettles o' fish!

Had Amrik asked whether 'kids' improve martial arts ability, I would have answered differently...

:asian: 

Ian.


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## KenpoTess (Sep 30, 2003)

My viewpoint on does teaching kids make you a better teacher.. 

Does parenting (taking the time and really knowing your child, paying attention to what they are doing in life, challenging them to do better, playing with them etc make you a better parent.. yes It does..

*Perfect Practice Makes Perfect*

In teaching MA's to kids..I am working the Yellow/Orange belt curriculum over and over and over.. Wow.. That means I should really really know it inside and out ..  *provided I was taught correct stances etc initially*  

*teaching Various  attention spans*

So that is going to help me be a better teacher to adults.. as I am learning patience with easily distracted youngsters.. It's my responsibility to keep the class motivated.  I now am learning how to vary the instruction so a 6 yo doesn't go wandering off, distracting the 10 yo who's concentrating on a tec.  This will assist me when dealing with a mixed adult class, Upper and lower ranks.. Keeping both occupied in their own material.. 

Some people have the natural ability to teach.. some have a wonderful persona with children.. we have some tough kids in our classes .. Tough in the sense where you just want to pick them up and toss em out on their butts.. but the changes I've seen in them is astounding and the comments from their parents.. makes me smile..

In my humble opinion..  Teaching Kids has made me a better teacher 


Tess


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## MisterMike (Sep 30, 2003)

> Lone Kimono becomes, Pick the booger and wipe it in their hair for the arm break, and Thrusting Salute becomes Pie in the Face for the heel palm.



I'm never going to think of these techniques the same again! :lol:

esp. Lone Kimono


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 30, 2003)

Just to throw in something else--there's an apocryphal story that Einstein was once seen talking earnestly to his next door neighbor's four-year-old---his fiends asked, Albert, what did you two talk about for so long?" He replied, "Relativity." They said, basically, relativity? How could you discuss relativioty with a four-year old? He said, of course, "If I can't explain it to a four year old, it just would mean that I don't understand it myself."

One of my other things is that in talking about what kids can't understand and can't do, we too often armor ourselves up, presuming that as adults, well, WE get all this stuff, unlike stupid kids. 

Personally, I describe my own approach to kenpo as, "Dogs watching TV."


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## KenpoTess (Sep 30, 2003)

I'm just a kid that happens to have lived a while


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I'd say it improves you as a teacher of children.
> 
> I guess I threw in the wallet fattner because it's being sold as Self Defense when I think it leans more towards Physical Education.
> ...



I believe teaching children applies toward Self-Defence as well as Physical Education.  
Teaching them moves, through repitition, allows them to remember how to punch, kick, and do anything that you would like them to do.  
The only difference between children and adults in teaching is that it is best to make the experience FUN for the kids.  Adults will sit there through a boring class of kicking and punching because they know that they paid their hard earned money to learn something.  Kids only know they are there because their parents require them to be (for the most part).  
So if you want the kids to do what you ask of them, it is best that you make it so they WANT to do it.  Not making them feel that they HAVE to do it.
And someone said that kids also don't remember definitions and terms that are stated orally.  That isn't completely true.  It is just like I said before...make it fun to learn that stuff.
Teach them the definition of torque while you have them punching (while having fun).  
They may not understand what it is actually that they are doing, but they will be able to repeat the definition and corrolate it with the move that you taught them to do it with.
Children are very resiliant and pick up on things very very fast.  They are also look up to people and remember things from their childhood very well...as most of us will "remember".  

Teaching children "fattens" the wallet as much as teaching adults.  It is what the teacher makes of it as to who it benefits...and how much!


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *The answer has to be yes, definitely.
> 
> I think kids make you be more inventive for a start, because they get bored so easily! Adults will happily work on the same thing for 10 or 15 minutes if it needs improving, but you've got no chance with the kids. I reckon that 5 minutes is the most you can spend on an activity before they want to do something new. In an hour class (less 15-20 mins warmup) that's quite a lot of things to come up with.
> ...



Sounds like plenty of stuff to "improve ourselves as teachers" to me.


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think those are good qualities to develop. But as far as direct development of your Martial Art ability, you are going to get more pointed and detailed questions from an adult class. By this, you'll only deepen your understanding of the techniques and forms. This was the area I was concerned with.
> 
> No harm no foul  *



I wouldn't say that...have you ever been attacked by 5 kids at once?  There is definitely improvement there in your MA abilities.  Try suppressing all of them at once, without hurting them!  Quite a chore!


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess_
> So that is going to help me be a better teacher to adults.. as I am learning patience with easily distracted youngsters.. It's my responsibility to keep the class motivated. I now am learning how to vary the instruction so a 6 yo doesn't go wandering off, distracting the 10 yo who's concentrating on a tec. This will assist me when dealing with a mixed adult class, Upper and lower ranks.. Keeping both occupied in their own material..



Ditto!   If you can work a class full of kids you can work a class of adults very easily.  Plus you have a wider array of techniques, visualizations, and analogys that you can use to teach the adults as well...and since not everyone learns the exact same way, this can make you a more proficient teacher for them and this can also increase their learning curve.


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## theletch1 (Sep 30, 2003)

> I wouldn't say that...have you ever been attacked by 5 kids at once? There is definitely improvement there in your MA abilities. Try suppressing all of them at once, without hurting them! Quite a chore


That's the best drill in the world for learning control.  My kids and I study aikido and having them pounce on me en masse is a great way to work locks and make sure the technique is correct.  If the tech is off I'd have to try to muscle it and they would get hurt, if the technique is correct I can get it locked in with just enough pressure to stop their motion.  At the same time they are allowed to use as much energy on me as they want just to show them that strength/force does not always equal proper technique.


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## fist of fury (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *Ditto!   If you can work a class full of kids you can work a class of adults very easily.  Plus you have a wider array of techniques, visualizations, and analogys that you can use to teach the adults as well...and since not everyone learns the exact same way, this can make you a more proficient teacher for them and this can also increase their learning curve. *



Interesting I've never looked at it that way... How many students do you have?


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## kenposikh (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think those are good qualities to develop. But as far as direct development of your Martial Art ability,*



That wasn't the question you could be an excellent martial artist with wonderful ability but still not be able to  pass this on because you can't teach.

I just wanted to know if people felt that teaching children was worthwhile and does it improve your teaching skills.


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## MisterMike (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenposikh _
> *That wasn't the question you could be an excellent martial artist with wonderful ability but still not be able to  pass this on because you can't teach.
> 
> I just wanted to know if people felt that teaching children was worthwhile and does it improve your teaching skills. *



Well wether it is worth while is subjective. I'll let that go. But for improving teaching skills, I think it only helps you be a better teacher for children. The question got started from my post on the Studio Atmosphere thread, where I commented on MA ability, so this is where my comments are being directed.



> Ditto! If you can work a class full of kids you can work a class of adults very easily. Plus you have a wider array of techniques, visualizations, and analogys that you can use to teach the adults as well...and since not everyone learns the exact same way, this can make you a more proficient teacher for them and this can also increase their learning curve.



I agree with this in part, as you certainly will be capable of running the class, but, if you are using child vizualizations and analogies in an adult class......

You see, there has to be another level, one that the adults can learn on. I agree it can stem from the same base as what is used for the children's class, but if all you do is teach children, your adult class will not have much to gain from it.(AS FAR AS TECHNIQUE DETAILS).


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> *Interesting I've never looked at it that way... How many students do you have? *



None...


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## KenpoTess (Sep 30, 2003)

In my opinion.. generalization of Teaching is not a good thing.  Everyone learns on a different plane.. each child or adult is such an individual that the teacher has to be well versed in all aspects of teaching.. to Reiterate what I iterated *always wanted to do that *G* .. Some people (matters not the age) learn visually, some verbally, some audio.. (using simplistic terminology here cuz I'm a simple person )  Some combine the schemes.   I can be shown something .. over and over I have to see it.. before it sinks in.. and unless I'm standing side-by-side the demonstrator.. you better believe I'll be doing a mirror image of the Tec..   now with the same instructor.. same technique.. hand me a handout with the Tec written down.. I read a line to myself..  Attempt to do the section read.. read the next line.. and by that time I've already forgotten the first thing I was doing.. 
Give me the same tec.. same Inst.  Call out the commands.  Over and over It sinks in.. 
Now not just one of these works for me.. Not just one may work for a child..  a Good teacher needs to Know their Student, regardless of age.. They need to be aware of the students way of learning,  and Incorporate All  into their Teaching Method.. It works for Kids and adults.. If you're having trouble instilling something into a students head.. Find out why.. it maybe  a simple method of tying something else 

*my ramblings 
Tess


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I agree with this in part, as you certainly will be capable of running the class, but, if you are using child vizualizations and analogies in an adult class......*


*

Then what?  Why can't an adult learn from the same visualization or analogy that a child learns from?   




			You see, there has to be another level, one that the adults can learn on.
		
Click to expand...


Maybe you could clarify "another level".  




			I agree it can stem from the same base as what is used for the children's class, but if all you do is teach children, your adult class will not have much to gain from it.(AS FAR AS TECHNIQUE DETAILS).
		
Click to expand...

*
I don't know what to say here except that from my experience I have found...like I said before....that I have more different ways of teaching either adults or children, to allow that each individual understands what I try to convey, due to the fact that I taught children.  I had to constantly try new things for the kids, so it caused me to do the same for the adults, which seemed to me to work better for the adults also.  I have compared it many times to many other teachers that only taught adults.  Adults DO get impatient also...and their minds start wandering just like kids.


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *In my opinion.. generalization of Teaching is not a good thing.  Everyone learns on a different plane.. each child or adult is such an individual that the teacher has to be well versed in all aspects of teaching.. to Reiterate what I iterated *always wanted to do that *G* .. Some people (matters not the age) learn visually, some verbally, some audio.. (using simplistic terminology here cuz I'm a simple person )  Some combine the schemes.   I can be shown something .. over and over I have to see it.. before it sinks in.. and unless I'm standing side-by-side the demonstrator.. you better believe I'll be doing a mirror image of the Tec..   now with the same instructor.. same technique.. hand me a handout with the Tec written down.. I read a line to myself..  Attempt to do the section read.. read the next line.. and by that time I've already forgotten the first thing I was doing..
> Give me the same tec.. same Inst.  Call out the commands.  Over and over It sinks in..
> Now not just one of these works for me.. Not just one may work for a child..  a Good teacher needs to Know their Student, regardless of age.. They need to be aware of the students way of learning,  and Incorporate All  into their Teaching Method.. It works for Kids and adults.. If you're having trouble instilling something into a students head.. Find out why.. it maybe  a simple method of tying something else
> ...



This was another point I was getting ready to make.  
Thanks Tess...I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 30, 2003)

Well, just to throw in something else...what is it to teach martial arts? What exactly is this thing we're trying to get across to students, as wello as to learn ourselves? Is it just technique and technical mastery? Or are techs and tech mastery just means to an end?

Personally, I think people get so het up about teaching kids partly because the question of teaching kids pokes at something in their own knowledge and training that they would rather not have poked at...

I mean, the knee-jerk response seems to be, "kids can't really be martial artists, because they can't really defend themselves." Well, maybe they're just strong cases of a nasty little fact we all have to consider--there are people out there that WE can't defend ourselves against, and situations that a ball kick, no matter how good, is not going to handle. (What these are, I have no idea. But theoretically speaking...) Another knee-jerk response--"kids can't be taught martial arts, because they just don't have the brain-power for them yet." Well, maybe they're just strong illustrations of intellectual limitations that we all should 'fess up to--or I should, anyway. Or maybe we think, "We should be above teaching kids for money, because this profanes the arts." Maybe it does--but can anybody look in a mirror and say, three times, "Kenpo has never been concerned with mere money and certainly Mr. Parker never was," without blushing or bursting out laughing?

In other words, I agree with everything that's been written so far. I just also think that the issue of teaching kids says something about what's flawed in our own ideas and practices...

If you think kids can't be martial artists, I know a few kids you really need to meet...


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> * I just also think that the issue of teaching kids says something about what's flawed in our own ideas and practices...*



What exactly do you mean by this?  I don't understand.



> * If you think kids can't be martial artists, I know a few kids you really need to meet... *



Agreed!


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 30, 2003)

I mean that some of the argument rests upon imposing an absolute contradiction between kids and adults that just isn't justified--and what's more, the reactions against teaching kids SOMETIMES (but only sometimes) have a lot more to say about the limitations of our training/teaching as "adults," than about kids and what they can or cannot learn.

I mean, hell--they seemed to think kids were worth teaching at Shaolin, in all its incarnations both real and fanciful...


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I mean that some of the argument rests upon imposing an absolute contradiction between kids and adults that just isn't justified--and what's more, the reactions against teaching kids SOMETIMES (but only sometimes) have a lot more to say about the limitations of our training/teaching as "adults," than about kids and what they can or cannot learn.
> 
> I mean, hell--they seemed to think kids were worth teaching at Shaolin, in all its incarnations both real and fanciful... *



Once again I totally agree with you!  
Even though they are kids...they are still human!:asian:


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## MisterMike (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *Then what?  Why can't an adult learn from the same visualization or analogy that a child learns from?
> 
> Maybe you could clarify "another level".
> ...



Right. You found new ways to teach, but I'm talking about the other direction. What INSIGHT into the art can YOU really get by teaching a kids class? My point is, not as much as an adult class. Adults are going to ask things on a higher intellectual level, which pushes you as the teacher to dig a little deeper. If all someone taught was kids classes, they would never get to the level a teacher of adults would. So the only thing that YOU get is some satisfaction in teaching kids, and the fatter wallet, which is fine too.

Therefor, teaching the kids cannot ADD anything that wouldn't already be learned about the art by teaching adults. This was my only point. I think we're comparing apples and oranges here.


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## jeffkyle (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Right. You found new ways to teach, but I'm talking about the other direction. What INSIGHT into the art can YOU really get by teaching a kids class? My point is, not as much as an adult class. Adults are going to ask things on a higher intellectual level, which pushes you as the teacher to dig a little deeper. If all someone taught was kids classes, they would never get to the level a teacher of adults would. So the only thing that YOU get is some satisfaction in teaching kids, and the fatter wallet, which is fine too.
> 
> Therefor, teaching the kids cannot ADD anything that wouldn't already be learned about the art by teaching adults. This was my only point. I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. *



I have had kids ask questions that compel some deep thought about something, and I have had adults ask questions that were very very simple to answer and did not provoke any thought.  

I don't think it is so black and white to be able to say that kids don't cause insight into the martial arts.  I believe they contribute to it as much as adults, either by their actions or by their questions.


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## MJS (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KEMPO DAVE _
> *Do you define yourself as a teacher? or a babysitter?  A good teacher will adapt the lesson to fit the class.  Babysitter only entertains. *



If you're talking about teaching kids that are like 4yo, then yeah, IMO, I think that way too young for them, and yes, I do feel like a babysitter.  When they're older, then it isnt that bad, but you still need to keep the class fun, otherwise, you'll lose their attention VERY fast.

Mike


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## don bohrer (Sep 30, 2003)

> I just wanted to know if people felt that teaching children was worthwhile and does it improve your teaching skills.



Children will challenge you to constantly rethink what you know, and how to convey that information in a simple but fun way. They help you keep it fresh for the adults, and the adults help you keep it real for the kids. Teaching both will balance out your teaching. 





Kids remind me to have fun and not take life too serious. That I can't do everything that they can. I need to warm up and stretch cause I'm getting old in the body. That play time can be anytime anywhere. Getting it right on the first try isn't as important as adults make it. Kids live in the here and now while adults carry around everyday all the time! 

:fart: 

don


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 30, 2003)

Well, to follow out the same line I've been arguing (somebody has to be the advocatus diaboli), I don't agree that kids' knowledge is lesser. In fact, I think that this whole, "greater," and "lesser," dichotomy is a misreading of the situation....and very comforting to us adults.

So about six years ago, I'm still puzzling over a question my first teacher gave me: "Why is Gathering Clouds called Gathering Clouds?" Boy, did I ever have beautiful Zen-like answers.

So I'm teaching this nine year old--at the time, he'd been a student since he was four. I drop the question on him. Aha! Robert-with-the education-and-the PhD thinks. Now I've got ye, me pretty!

Kid looks at me like I'm mentally retarded, and says--with virtually no consideration--"Well, because..." and gives a far better, more-direct answer than I'd come up with in the past two years.

Beyond learning the clear fact that I'm an idiot, what can we learn from this?


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## stickarts (Sep 30, 2003)

When parents fill out the registration form in our school, their goals for their children are almost always for them to gain confidence and discipline. seldom, if ever, do we see self defense marked down for the young kids as being a reason why they are there. also, parents appreciate the value of having their kids learn to interact with other children, especially kids that have no siblings to play with. Parents on this forum know what i mean and understand the value of this! We get overwhelming positive feedback from parents about how the classes help their children.
As far as improving teaching, one thing i look for in grading advanced instructors is their ability to teach all kinds of people and all ages. The most impressive instructors know how to connect with all ages and many different types of people.
I guess a question is, as a teacher, are you there just to teach the physical moves or are you there to help develop a person, be it kid or adult?
I have also trained adults and at times, felt like a "babysitter!" LOL!


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## JD_Nelson (Sep 30, 2003)

I think if one cannot understand a basic principle as an adult, then he or she is making the principle to hard.

Even if the children are picking up just the movements, then at a more developed age wouldn't the principles seem to come to them maybe a tad easier.   When I am learning a new technique, i have many many thoughts and ideas going through my head while I am just trying to learn the ideal.  

If you can have a child understand a principle, then hopefully an adult can pick up on the same idea.


KISS principle

Salute

JD


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## kenposikh (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Well, to follow out the same line I've been arguing (somebody has to be the advocatus diaboli), I don't agree that kids' knowledge is lesser. In fact, I think that this whole, "greater," and "lesser," dichotomy is a misreading of the situation....and very comforting to us adults.
> 
> So about six years ago, I'm still puzzling over a question my first teacher gave me: "Why is Gathering Clouds called Gathering Clouds?" Boy, did I ever have beautiful Zen-like answers.
> ...



THat kids can sometimes see things more clearly because their brains are not cluttered up with adult stuff. What was his reply by the way


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## MA-Caver (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenposikh _
> *That kids can sometimes see things more clearly because their brains are not cluttered up with adult stuff. What was his reply by the way *



I agree totally because I sometimes 





> "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then..." (Bob Seger)


  and I'm curious too as to the kid's reply. 

stickarts says 





> When parents fill out the registration form in our school, their goals for their children are almost always for them to gain confidence and discipline. seldom, if ever, do we see self defense marked down for the young kids as being a reason why they are there. also, parents appreciate the value of having their kids learn to interact with other children, especially kids that have no siblings to play with. Parents on this forum know what i mean and understand the value of this! We get overwhelming positive feedback from parents about how the classes help their children.



I'm not an MA instructor but I would be sad (on the inside) if all the registrations of kids by their parents failed to list "self-defense" as the reasons why they're enrolling their child in that particular school. It's almost as if they're reluctant to admit their fear of their child getting hurt/attacked/worse out in the real world, away from the safety/comforts of home. School bullies still exist, predators exist... better to have a child prepared to face them than to come home crying or not come home at all. 
MA does offer children many many benefits it's true but it teaches them how to defend themselves in an increasingly violent world. 
As for padding the instructors wallet, there's nothing wrong at all because the instructor has to eat and feed their family too. It's a service that they choose to provide and a desire to pass on their knowledge and the benefits they've gained individually from their respective arts. 
Benefit the instructor? I think yes. While I am not a MA instuctor I do instruct kids from time to time in other things. And I learn right along with them but of course the things that _I learn_  are different than what I teach. 
It's fun to watch the kids practice what they've been taught. Once in a while I'll go visit a friend's MA school to watch either them or their kids practice their drills/techniques or test for a new rank. It's enjoyable to watch and I'm sure it's enjoyable for the instructor who puts in the time and _patience_ with these kids to see them perform awesome. 
Kids will make mistakes and over time as the instuctor helps correct them he/she learns how to become a better teacher for the next student. 

now that I'm .02 poorer I'll shut up
:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Kid looks at me like I'm mentally retarded, and says--with virtually no consideration--"Well, because..." and gives a far better, more-direct answer than I'd come up with in the past two years.
> 
> Beyond learning the clear fact that I'm an idiot, what can we learn from this? *



I guess I would have to know what the answer was before I can talk about it.     "Well, because..."  isn't enough for me.


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## jeffkyle (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JD_Nelson _
> *I think if one cannot understand a basic principle as an adult, then he or she is making the principle to hard.
> 
> Even if the children are picking up just the movements, then at a more developed age wouldn't the principles seem to come to them maybe a tad easier.   When I am learning a new technique, i have many many thoughts and ideas going through my head while I am just trying to learn the ideal.
> ...



Well said!


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## WhiteTiger (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenposikh _
> *I recently received a post that teaching children generally only increases the size of your wallet but does not improve you as a teacher. How many people agree or disagree with this statement and can you provide examples. *



Any educator can tell you there are fundemental differences between the way adults learn and the way children learn.  This requires different approaches to each audience when teaching them.  In short teaching children can make you a better "Teacher", but will it make you a better MAist, my vote is No.  You as an adult process information differently than kids do, your presentation to them won't necessarily improve your own understanding of the material.  

Teaching kenpo is not my primary method of income, so I can afford to be choosey about whom I accept as a student, children under 10 are not among them.


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## Kenpomachine (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> *Any educator can tell you there are fundemental differences between the way adults learn and the way children learn.  This requires different approaches to each audience when teaching them.  In short teaching children can make you a better "Teacher", but will it make you a better MAist, my vote is No.  *



Kids ask more questions than adults do, and they're often more philosophical than the adults as well, at least in my experience. They'll always ask why so, and continue until they get an answer that is logical to them. Adults will take things for granted most of the time. Thus the kids would help your MA by forcing you to have very clear concepts and principles.

If anyone here think that advancing as a martial artist relies only in physical training, well, not for me.  

So _my_ answer in regards to what kids can do for your betterment as a MA is that they can help you a lot in the intellectual part, but no so in the physical side.


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## kenposikh (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *
> If anyone here think that advancing as a martial artist relies only in physical training, well, not for me.
> 
> So my answer in regards to what kids can do for your betterment as a MA is that they can help you a lot in the intellectual part, but no so in the physical side. *



I wholeheartedly agree


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 1, 2003)

I see I haven't made my point clearly.

Here it is: while lots of kids might as well be in play group as on the mat, folks go off about teaching kids because a) it's easier than exploring their own limitations as martial artists; b) it's easier than getting into the real issues of money and the martial arts.

My experience has been that teaching kids--while I don't always like it very much--teaches a LOT having to do with patience, ingenuity, control, focus, and several other things that may be of use in my training. 

I get exasperated with yuppie larvae. Sure. At times, teaching kids maakes me crazy. Sure. However, I also get exasperated with "martial artists," who don't believe in teaching kids because they can't really learn. And somehow, this seems to hang together with complaints about the pointlessness of teaching--or working out with--a whole bunch of other grown-up people who can't really learn, or somehow aren't good enough, or are too small, or..{insert favorite excuse here}.

To me, kids expose our weaknesses. One of which--and sorry, but I see it in the responses--is the notion that martial arts are only about who can hit the hardest.


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## jeffkyle (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *To me, kids expose our weaknesses. One of which--and sorry, but I see it in the responses--is the notion that martial arts are only about who can hit the hardest. *



What about who is the fastest, or who can hit the most times, or who outranks who?   :shrug: 

You still never answered the question(s) about what that kid said!?!?!?!?


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## Ceicei (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *
> Therefor, teaching the kids cannot ADD anything that wouldn't already be learned about the art by teaching adults. This was my only point. I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. *



Ummm.  If you are to teach kids something that would be useful to them if in the event they actually have to use it, then you want to be able to see whether the technique works for them.  Some types of techniques work well on adults because of height differences between the attacker and attackee (is that even a word?)

Kids are smaller, thus we have to think seriously about how to make things work for them with their size.

Watch their expressions, their execution of motion, and you can see whether its effective.  Don't just teach them something that just has to be taught but is ineffective.

My sons' instructor will demonstrate to them the technique moves.  If it is something that is ineffective (at that point because of their size), but is part of the required curriculum, he will explain that it is something they need to know, but will show them a variation that will work for them effectively.  As an instructor, he is mindful of both the curriculum and of practical self-defense application.

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> So _my_ answer in regards to what kids can do for your betterment as a MA is that they can help you a lot in the intellectual part, but no so in the physical side. [/B]



I'd disagree with this to an extent because I wrestle with an 10 and 8 yr old for fun. At the same time using ground-fighting/grappling techniques. The discipline that I learn by doing this is invaluable. The amount of pressure that I need to use to restrain the 10 yr old is different from the 8 yr old and as with an adult. 
I've discovered an awareness to my own control of my physical muscles as to how much pressure to apply so it won't hurt them, just have the desired affect of restraint. It's all in great fun and I learn how to make sure that my body isn't over-doing or even under doing (?) what I need to do. 
Thus control of the physical is what I can get out of working/playing/teaching children. 

rmcrobertson said: 





> <snip>My experience has been that teaching kids--while I don't always like it very much...


With all due respect it seems to me that you shouldn't be teaching kids at all then. Kids will pick up on the fact that who they're with does or does not like what they're doing. Kids live from the heart and thus feel things on a more intuitive level than we adults. 
If there are other instructors at your school that like working with kids then allow them and stick to teaching adults. :asian: :asian:


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## Dan G (Dec 5, 2004)

I am not a martial arts instructor, just a student. In the past I have had experience of teaching English to ages ranging from 6 to 60+. IMHO teaching ages 6 - 12 was one of the most useful experiences I could have had, both as a teacher and a person. I do believe that if one is capable of motivating and teaching children well, then it can only add to one's ability to teach older people. I don't advocate using the same approach neccessarily, I do believe the understanding of people and communication gained through teaching children can only be a benefit when teaching adults. I also found it really enjoyable, as younger children in particular are very open to taking on new activities and far less self conscious and afraid of failure, and were a joy to teach in comparison to both sulky Junior High students, and adult classes where a fear of looking foolish was also a real obstacle (to both students and myself). I also found that 9 year olds could be pretty sharp from time to time...

Others on the thread have been of the opinion that training children cannot improve a teacher as a martial artist. I am not qualified to comment on this, but I would like to broaden the debate by asking the (rhetorical) question "why would anyone choose to teach? For their benefit as a martial artist, or for the benefit of their martial art?".


Personally, having trained briefly in martial arts as a child before returning as a teen, and later again as an adult, I feel that my first instructor started me on a path that has consistently been fulfilling, and I have utter respect for those instructors that are out there sharing their knowledge, offering children the opportunity to discover the benefits of pursuing a martial art, and helping keep their respective arts alive and kicking...

Respectfully,

Dan


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 5, 2004)

I want to agree very strongly with the last poster, particularly in terms of the openness kids bring to the arts.

I want to suggest that, "MA Caver," is extraordinarily fortunate to have only ever taught people he likes, to have always had perfect lessons with them, to have never run into discouraging students and unhappy lessons, to have never have encountered students whose problems (which they bring onto the mat with them) are deep-seated in their lives and their families and their neighborhoods, to have always been a perfect teacher, to have never failed with a student or a class.

Mazeltov. Me, I've been teaching since--well, for longer than many posters have been alive--and there've been lots of mistakes and discouragements, as well as students well beyond whatever help I have to offer. Those mistakes and failings still bother me.

Of course, there are also the five kids I'm presently teaching that have been my students for...let's see...hm. Quite a while....as well as the others who...oh, never mind. Not stories I care to tell, here.

I quite agree that kids are extraordinarily discerning. I would suggest that any teacher who thinks that all students are happy all the time, that all lessons run beautifully, that all learnings are successful, that all good teachers are happy and good all the time--needs to take a good long look at outside reality and what goes on in their own heart.


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## OC Kid (Dec 5, 2004)

Teaching kids has helped be a better teach and communicator. If I get a 10 year old to understand a difficult technique, in most cases a adult will be easy.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 6, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I want to suggest that, "MA Caver," is extraordinarily fortunate to have only ever taught people he likes, to have always had perfect lessons with them, to have never run into discouraging students and unhappy lessons, to have never have encountered students whose problems (which they bring onto the mat with them) are deep-seated in their lives and their families and their neighborhoods, to have always been a perfect teacher, to have never failed with a student or a class.


Robert... umm, err, ahh...  :idunno: I'm at a loss at where I might have said, implied, suggested that I have taught ANY Martial Art to anyone period? I have practiced, even tutored and sparred but officially teach ... umm... not to this guys'  knowledge. 
Caving? ... oh my yes! And I have indeed have had "problem-students" ...quite simply they straighten up or don't ever get with me again... this is due to the nature of the dangers involved with caving. 
I'll quote myself from post #41 in this thread... and bold/underline the disclaimer _and _clairification that I made... 





			
				MACaver said:
			
		

> I'm *not* an MA instructor but I would be sad (on the inside) if all the registrations of kids by their parents failed to list "self-defense" as the reasons why they're enrolling their child in that particular school. It's almost as if they're reluctant to admit their fear of their child getting hurt/attacked/worse out in the real world, away from the safety/comforts of home. School bullies still exist, predators exist... better to have a child prepared to face them than to come home crying or not come home at all.
> MA does offer children many many benefits it's true but it teaches them how to defend themselves in an increasingly violent world.
> As for padding the instructors wallet, there's nothing wrong at all because the instructor has to eat and feed their family too. It's a service that they choose to provide and a desire to pass on their knowledge and the benefits they've gained individually from their respective arts.
> Benefit the instructor? I think yes._ While* I am not a MA instuctor* I do instruct kids from time to time in *other things*. And I learn right along with them but of course the things that I learn are different than what I teach._


Robert, I respect you but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words into my mouth. While I would probably love to be experienced enough in MA to qualify to teach I am not and know enough to defend myself should that need arise. But if I ever DO become qualified to teach... you can bet your old baby booties that I'd be more than HAPPY to teach kids... even at NO cost to myself.  
Children need the benefit of *everyone's* experience be it MA, caving, driving, whatever! To deny them is to deny ourselves the chance to make a difference (however small) in someone's life. 
 :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 6, 2004)

Hm. I've been teaching since 1981, teaching martial arts for the last eight years or so, been the teacher of at least three kids for the last six to eight years straight, you've never taught, but you feel perfectly comfortable in writing, "With all due respect it seems to me that you shouldn't be teaching kids at all then. Kids will pick up on the fact that who they're with does or does not like what they're doing. Kids live from the heart and thus feel things on a more intuitive level than we adults. If there are other instructors at your school that like working with kids then allow them and stick to teaching adults...."

It would be my suggestion that you wait until you are teaching regularly, and teaching kids regularly, and teaching in a public fashion, before you continue explaining how your grandma should suck de eggs.  Particularly if you presently have the luxury of dealing with "problem students," by saimply saying, "And I have indeed have had "problem-students" ...quite simply they straighten up or don't ever get with me again."

Oh, incidentally, if you get a copy of Larry Tatum's excellent book, "Confidence: A Child's First Weapon," you will have a chance to see three of my students.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 6, 2004)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Tshadowchaser
 aka   Sheldon Bedell  
-MT Moderator-


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## shesulsa (Dec 6, 2004)

If one looks carefully at the post quoted from MACaver, one may notice that 1) he stated his opinion fairly and prefaced it with the words, "With all due respect..." and 2) he indicates very clearly that he does not instruct children in martial arts, rather his own specialty, caving.

 Back to the topic:

 Teaching children requires many things, among them patience, curiosity, the ability to view things in a child-like manner, and understanding.  From assisting the instructors of children for the past handful of years, I think if you can teach a room full of kids, you can teach just about anybody.  In breaking things down to baby steps, I have learned things about the basics of my martial art I didn't think I needed to know.

 Cheers!

 Georgia


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## BallistikMike (Dec 6, 2004)

Teaching is the greatest learning you will ever do.


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## Hollywood1340 (Dec 6, 2004)

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> Ditto! If you can work a class full of kids you can work a class of adults very easily. Plus you have a wider array of techniques, visualizations, and analogys that you can use to teach the adults as well...and since not everyone learns the exact same way, this can make you a more proficient teacher for them and this can also increase their learning curve.


Could not have said it better myself


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 7, 2004)

First I've learned a lot both teaching children and watching my children be taught.  

Second, thank god someone is coming in to fill my instructors wallet.  He's been incredibly generous with his time and a full time job would seriously limit his availability to the rest of us.

Jeff


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## WCman1976 (May 22, 2012)

I remember attending the kids' class at my old judo club. I was only a white belt so I couldn't actually help teach, but I was so into the martial arts that I wanted to be there all the time. These kids were all between the ages of 4 and 7. Don't ask me whose bright idea it was to have kids that young in class, although it obviously had to be the sensei. At any rate, it was a disaster. The kids did more running around than practicing. I remember one occasion when they had the kids pair off to practice a technique, and one kid SMACKED the other one in the face! If that had been my school, I would have told the parents he couldn't come to class anymore. Some people are just in it for the money...and some parents sign their kids up to a martial arts class just to have them out of their hair for an hour or so. To them, the martial arts school is like a daycare!


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