# Training Against The Blade



## MJS (Dec 7, 2005)

We had a thread talking about gun disarms, so I thought it would be interesting to discuss the blade.  What are some training methods that you use to prepare yourself for a knife attack?  Does anyone have any drills that they do during their classes?

Mike


----------



## Paul Genge (Dec 7, 2005)

This is a link to an article that covers some of systema's drills used to learn about this kind of work.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)


----------



## Nanalo74 (Dec 7, 2005)

We train extensively with the blade. Training with the blade super charges our empty hands because the blade is so dangerous (it can kill you just by grazing you) that our reflexes, body mechanics and awareness become very sharp (no pun intended  ). 

On our DVD, Dynamic Kali Vol. 1: Knife Fighting, we have a very in-depth section on empty hands vs. the knife and some of the drills we use. Basically, anything you can do blade vs. blade can be done empty hand vs. blade with slight adjustments made to account for your lack of a weapon.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


----------



## still learning (Dec 8, 2005)

Hello, We practice 10  different drills/attacks for this, most important one is: RUN

if can (must be able to run faster than the attacker).............................Aloha


----------



## tshadowchaser (Dec 8, 2005)

Almost any thing I teach with the hands I try with a training kniofe to see if it works.  
 Found more than a few i will not ever do again against a blade.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 8, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Almost any thing I teach with the hands I try with a training kniofe to see if it works.
> Found more than a few i will not ever do again against a blade.


 
tshadowchaser,
This is so true. I stress often, "What works against a blade will work against an empty hand but what works against an empty hand won't necessarily work against a blade." 

Danny


----------



## arnisador (Dec 9, 2005)

Good advice. It works on offense too. I like training with the blade to improve my empty hands; blde technqiues generally become empty hands technqiues quite easily, excepting the little nickel-and-dime cuts. But some empty-hand technqiues are awkward with a blade.


----------



## MJS (Dec 15, 2005)

Training the blade definately improves the empty hand skills.  Working passing, flow drills, as well as knife sparring all helps to build those attributes. 

Has anyone worked disarms with a live blade?  Of course, this is something that should be done slowly, due to the nature of this drill.  Doing this will IMO, certainly give you a different feel for the disarm (no pun intended ) as you'll be more aware of any mistakes that you make while working disarms, ie: getting your hand too close to the blade edge when working with a wooded or plastic knife, placing the blade edge against your arm, etc.

Mike


----------



## Nanalo74 (Dec 15, 2005)

Also, try training with different types of blades. Long, short, folder, fixed blade, balisong, etc. Each has a different feel and also, disarms are much more difficult on shorter blades. I usually opt to feed the knife back or do some kind of a quick break rather than risk trying to disarm a short folder.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


----------



## arnisador (Dec 15, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Has anyone worked disarms with a live blade? Of course, this is something that should be done slowly, due to the nature of this drill.


 
Not so much as a practice drill but as a test to see that a forearm strip, say, is a safe technique.


----------



## Nanalo74 (Dec 15, 2005)

In my previous post, I meant that attempting to strip a shorter blade is difficult. After re-reading what I wrote the thought occured to me that there are other types of disarms other than a strip.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


----------



## Navarre (Dec 15, 2005)

Could you describe a "forearm strip" please?


----------



## Nanalo74 (Dec 15, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Could you describe a "forearm strip" please?


 
A forearm strip is when you grab the weapon hand at the meat of the thumb with one hand and push against the flat part of the blade with your forearm to strip the knife from your opponent's grip.

Again, I wouldn't recommend trying this against a short blade as there is little margin for error.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


----------



## Navarre (Dec 15, 2005)

Oh, okay. I know the technique, just not your term. Thanks.

I've also seen a technique used from a blade thrust (right-handed in this case) where your left hand strikes the back of the knife hand while the right hand pops the knife hand hard at the wrist. 

The two strikes are done simultaneously and with a bit of circular motion torquing inward toward the wrist. The right arm is curved up with the elbow high to avoid the path of the blade as it turns inward. The body also curves in the opposite direction, again to avoid the blade in case of failure.

It is a disarm technique. Opinions on it?


----------



## arnisador (Dec 15, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> I've also seen a technique used from a blade thrust (right-handed in this case) where your left hand strikes the back of the knife hand while the right hand pops the knife hand hard at the wrist.


 
This is a crossada motion in the FMAs (or maybe a gunting, depending on just how you do it and what art we're talking about). It can work. You want to be clear of the blade's path, and you don't want to count on a disarm--but it'll likely loosen his grip enough to buy you some time for your next move.


----------



## searcher (Dec 15, 2005)

Be prepared to get cut if you have to defend against a blade.   It is gonna happen.


----------



## Knarfan (Dec 15, 2005)

One thing that you have to keep in mind when your trying any disarms is not just worrying about the mistakes that you might make when attempting a disarm but, for every disarm there is a disarm counter. In sayoc Kali we have a whole bunch of disarms, which are probably very similar to all of the disarms that are being discussed here. The usuals forearm strips, high line, low line & percussions. The problem is that our disarm counters are alot more effective then the disarms & they are designed not only to stop the disarm but, the counter usually results in a very serious vital target injury & there is nothing that the person attempting the disarm can really do to stop it, it happens to fast & it usualy results in some type of major artery damage because the counter isn't designed to only stop the disarm but, to eliminate the threat by attacking a vital target on the half beat. So if you commit to a disarm, the disarm counter is like taking candy from a baby. So my advice is if you do attempt a disarm be ready to bail out & at the very least protect your vital targets even if it means taking a less serious cut. I would much rather projectile somthing , run or draw a blade before I would attempt a disarm. Although I practice disarms all of the time in training & I am actually pretty good at them but they are just to risky if somone knows some nasty counters.


----------



## Navarre (Dec 15, 2005)

So what is your mental approach then to a knife-weilding opponent, sayoc?


----------



## Knarfan (Dec 15, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> So what is your mental approach then to a knife-weilding opponent, sayoc?


 
I'm not sure if I really understand your question but, Sayoc would be my response, maybe not in the way you might think though. I consider anybody who is attempting to harm another person with an edged weapon very dangerous & to be honest with you the thought of having to face somone like that scares the crap out of me. Although I may have a proactive approach to dealing with this type of situation, meaning I don't really think that if my back was really against the wall that your basic self defense is going to save my life. Lets just say that I would put most of my energy into trying to descalate the situation, this would include running, begging, what ever it takes but, if I was left with NO other options but to protect myself I would do what ever it takes to keep myself alive & any of my loved ones that might be present. Lets just say attempting a disarm wouldn't be my first choice.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 15, 2005)

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> One thing that you have to keep in mind when your trying any disarms is not just worrying about the mistakes that you might make when attempting a disarm but, for every disarm there is a disarm counter. The problem is that our disarm counters are alot more effective then the disarms


Yes! For every attack there are several counters. For every counter there are several re-counters and for every re-counters there again are counters and so on.

Most all the arts I have seen or been involved with have many disarms. The problem I see with most of them is the manner the disarms are attempted and when they are attempted. In Pekiti disarms are performed as a function of attacking. Of course one can only disarm but it is something we strongly discourage because as Sayoc FF was referring to; the counters are more effective than just disarming. When performed with-in the function of attacking the disarms happen due to proper positioning and attacking. Something I stress and all my Pekiti instructors have stressed is to never attempt a disarm or a joint lock if the hand/arm or the head is still working properly. What makes all the disarming work is to damage the weapon hand/arm and/or the head &#8220;First&#8221; then with proper positioning as you follow-up the initial attack or counter with a hit the disarm is there. Disrupt the intelligence, damage the weapons capability, destroy the weapons system. Hit the head, hit the weapon arm, take out the body. Is it possible to simply disarm another? Yes. Can that be effective? Yes but, what is the higher percentage move? What will be most effective more often? When in a fight with or without weapons there are no absolutes and what works well once may never work again.

As to being prepared to be cut if defending against a blade. I feel this is a major part of the problem. If you are defending against the blade then you are fighting the blade and will probably lose or get hurt badly. Don't fight the blade, damage and control what is wielding the blade, damage and take out the head and body.

Danny


----------



## Knarfan (Dec 15, 2005)

Danny T said:
			
		

> Yes! For every attack there are several counters. For every counter there are several re-counters and for every re-counters there again are counters and so on.
> 
> Most all the arts I have seen or been involved with have many disarms. The problem I see with most of them is the manner the disarms are attempted and when they are attempted. In Pekiti disarms are performed as a function of attacking. Of course one can only disarm but it is something we strongly discourage because as Sayoc FF was referring to; the counters are more effective than just disarming. When performed with-in the function of attacking the disarms happen due to proper positioning and attacking. Something I stress and all my Pekiti instructors have stressed is to never attempt a disarm or a joint lock if the hand/arm or the head is still working properly. What makes all the disarming work is to damage the weapon hand/arm and/or the head First then with proper positioning as you follow-up the initial attack or counter with a hit the disarm is there. Disrupt the intelligence, damage the weapons capability, destroy the weapons system. Hit the head, hit the weapon arm, take out the body. Is it possible to simply disarm another? Yes. Can that be effective? Yes but, what is the higher percentage move? What will be most effective more often? When in a fight with or without weapons there are no absolutes and what works well once may never work again.
> 
> ...


 
Dan,
I think that your grasp on reality & your priorities with respect to controlling a very diffacult & dangerous life threatening situation is incredibly accurate. What you say about preparing to be cut if defending against a blade is so true, it can't be looked at as "self defense against the blade" you need to do more like you stated, because if you just fixate on the blade you will lose. This is one thing that I think is very difficult to get across to people, IMO, people really have to learn how to break out of this "self defense mind set". You have done an excellent job of really explaining this concept & you put alot of things in perspective. Also, I like what you say about there being "no absolutes", what works once may never work again. You sound like somone that has been there & done that.... excellent post!


----------



## Paul Genge (Dec 16, 2005)

One interesting point that needs to be made is that very few of us will face a knife and even fewer will face a knife attacker who is trained to use the weapon with the skill that some schools teach.  

Knife disarms are for life and death situations.  They are not a matter of choice.  Also the attacker is umlikely to be skilled and therefore may have a greater chance of being effective than our classes would suggest.

Paul Genge


----------



## Knarfan (Dec 16, 2005)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> One interesting point that needs to be made is that very few of us will face a knife and even fewer will face a knife attacker who is trained to use the weapon with the skill that some schools teach.
> 
> Knife disarms are for life and death situations. They are not a matter of choice. Also the attacker is umlikely to be skilled and therefore may have a greater chance of being effective than our classes would suggest.
> 
> Paul Genge


 
One misconception that shouldn't be overlooked is the fact that a person who is attacking you with a knife has to be skilled in order to be effective or a dangerous threat. The intent ,aggression ,element of suprise & physical advantages that the attacker may poses, are going to have much more to do with your chances for survival not his skill level. When somone swinging a blade at you, theres a good chance that you are going to be seriously injured, it has very little to do with skill. Of course skill level of the attacker is only going to make it worse but, they don't have to be skilled to be deadly. I do agree though, the chances of being attacked under normal circumstances is slim.


----------



## MJS (Dec 16, 2005)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> One interesting point that needs to be made is that very few of us will face a knife and even fewer will face a knife attacker who is trained to use the weapon with the skill that some schools teach.


 
I would think that someone working in a prison would face a much better chance of facing an edged weapon.  You do bring up some good points though when you mentioned the skill level of your attacker.  In this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28964

I talk about the same thing that you just mentioned regarding skill levels.

Mike


----------



## Bigshadow (Dec 16, 2005)

In our training we train to take out the delivery system of the knife not the weapon itself. This can be seen as the spine of the attacker and on other levels it can be the mind. With that being said, the blade (no matter the type) is not a real issue, by taking out the delivery system (humans being very similar) the principles remain the same. 

Just my thoughts on training against a blade.


----------



## BallistikMike (Dec 17, 2005)

Knife fighting is very simple and very easy. 

Put the knife in your hand.

Put it into the "Bad guy".

Great targets would be the liver, the throat, femoral artery, the brachial artery and the hand.

Forget anything you have ever been taught about fencing. You will never face an opponent and fence knife to knife. 

A knife is meant to be felt and never seen.

The stick should stay a stick and the sword should stay a sword. Trying to convert those training regimes to knife use is faulty. 

"Machine gun" stabbing. Try a hand cut or a disarm on that. You will fail every time. That is exactly what is seen on the streets and in the prison yard. Rapid fire thrusting, rapid fire slashing. 

Expect to be cut, yep. Expect to slip on your own blood, possible. Expect to become weak and winded because of the cut, yep. Understand that a cut can cripple you for life, yep.

Create space, create shields, destroy vital targets and obtain a distance weapon (Pool cue, bar stool, garbage can, car door). 

Good luck everyone.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Dec 21, 2005)

I've never been a in a knife fight.  I've seen a couple, heard about a few, but i've never been in one (and hope to never be).  I practice different things in relation to knife fighting, and I spar.  But, that having been said, the only way to really learn how to knife fight is to actually do it.  And that's dangerous.  People get hurt, and many of them die.  

The difference in advantage between a trained knife fighter and an untrained knife fighter is far less than between a trained gun fighter and an untrained gun fighter.  Meaning, you can be good, and still get cut really bad.  Knife fighting seems to be a risky occupation.  That having been said, it's better to know something, than know nothing.


----------



## jdinca (Dec 21, 2005)

We have a number of techniques that are designed to defend against a knife attack. None of them up to my level (brown) involve removing the knife from the attackers hand. They involve controlling/deflecting the arm while trying to incapacitate the guy with the knife. The first thought is to avoid the confrontation if at all possible. Disarm techniques are taught at the BB level.

We did some "sparring" in our instructors class with red Sharpies while wearing white t-shirts. Very eye opening and informative.


----------



## MJS (Dec 21, 2005)

I too, have never been in a knife fight, and hope that I never am.  I do agree that control is key.  Techniques, both empty hand and against weapons, should IMO be used as a foundation to build your defense off of.  Probably won't be able to pull off a full tech. but instead use ideas from them.

 Mike


----------



## ChineseKempoJerry (Dec 21, 2005)

My two cents worth.

We teach knife disarms in our curriculum. We practice a lot. We do a lot of seminars. I am Filipino and so is my instructor. We learn and practice because of our heritage.

I was asked to teach a self protection seminar to a LEO group. Here is what I say. Somone has a kinfe, get your gun. No gun, get your baton. No baton, run. No choice, control the weapon, close the gap (this is happening simultaneously), take down your assailant, pray you are alive.

Food for thought. Go full speed keeping this in mind and let me know what you think. It has worked for me!

Good luck and remember, to survive is why we study.

Best Regards,

Jerry


----------



## James Kovacich (Dec 23, 2005)

Nanalo74 said:
			
		

> We train extensively with the blade. Training with the blade super charges our empty hands because the blade is so dangerous (it can kill you just by grazing you) that our reflexes, body mechanics and awareness become very sharp (no pun intended  ).
> 
> Basically, anything you can do blade vs. blade can be done empty hand vs. blade with slight adjustments made to account for your lack of a weapon.
> 
> Vic www.combatartsusa.com


 
I agree. A lot of Inayan Serrada "translates" to Inayan Kadena De Mano. Simplicity is key. Just about any Serrada technique is duplicated from stick, sword, knife and empty hand with minor adjustments.


----------



## James Kovacich (Dec 23, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> I too, have never been in a knife fight, and hope that I never am. I do agree that control is key. Techniques, both empty hand and against weapons, should IMO be used as a foundation to build your defense off of. Probably won't be able to pull off a full tech. but instead use ideas from them.
> 
> Mike


 
You got it my friend. Thats what techniques really are about. Once you "dissolve" the technique, you use it as needed. 

I hope I never need my M1 Lightfoot but in a "real" situation it is close enough to what I practice with and an all around great "legal" knife. And one the best things about it is that only the clip is exposed out of your pocket. Your attacker is likely to not even know you have it and if you need it, it's there.

Although I did notice when I was Europe, the pick-pockets that I've heard so much about stayed away from me.


----------

