# addressing black belts



## hungryninja (May 17, 2011)

Some people address black belts as "Mr.", "Ms./Mrs." (or Master, Grandmaster, etc.) followed by their last name, while others address them as "Sir" or "Ma'am" followed by their first name.  Just curious if anyone knew how the latter designation came about.  Trend set by associations, schools, individual instructors?


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## granfire (May 17, 2011)

Around these parts it's mr/mrs last name, sir/ma'am as substitute.
Haven't heard sir first name other than people knighted by the Queen.


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## WC_lun (May 17, 2011)

We just call each other by our first names or nicknames. Occasionally we'll address the head instructor as sifu, but it isn't required. Respect is a given and not needed by titles in our school.  If you disrespect someone, you wind up on your back side or tied in a knot. So I gotta say it is a school or organization thing.


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## shima (May 17, 2011)

Our school owners are MP and P, which stands for Master Professor and Professor. Our black belts at the school are Mr/Ms/Mrs with last name. 

At my previous school the only person to be referred to by title was the instructor and we called her either Kwanjang or Miss Debbie

And at my first school our main instructor's title is Shihan, so we called him Shihan/Sensei Chris and all black belts were Sensei *first_name*


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## msmitht (May 17, 2011)

As I am the owner/master instructor at my dojang, my students refer to me as either sa bum nim, master smith or sir. I refer to all my students by their first names unless they are helping teach, then they are mr./mrs./ms. Jones. If aDan/Poom is assisting in class and gives a command the response is yes/sir/maam.
In bjj it is different. Black belts are proffesor/master. Blue belts are coaches. Purple/brown are instructors. All are called by first name. It is very personal when you are constantly training hard and keeping on a first name basis is important to the overall atmosphere.


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## rlobrecht (May 17, 2011)

In our school, our normal instructor is Kyosanim or Mr. Walter (first name - his choice.)  Our junior instructors are all Mr./Ms. First Name (including black belts who are helping with instruction, but aren't paid instructors.)  Our Master is Sabumnim, Master Hong, or Mr. Hong (last name.)  We used to have a Grand Master, and he was Kwanjanim.  All adults (regardless of belt) are Mr./Ms. First Name.  High belt in the class is referred to as sir or ma'am, but that's only once right after we recite the oath.

Rick


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## Mark Jordan (May 17, 2011)

We normally use Sensei, or Prof although Mr., Ms./Mrs., Sifu, Master, Grandmaster are also used.  It doesn't matter really.  What matters is each one treats each other with respect.


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## ralphmcpherson (May 17, 2011)

We refer to everybody by their first name or nickname irrespective of rank. The only exception is the GM where we add "Mr" to his name. If I called my instructor anything but his first name he would probably laugh at me, he is very modest and does not like the "mr" or "sir" or "instructor" or "sambunhim" etc. Actually all our instructors are like that come to think of it.


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## Manny (May 18, 2011)

In my dojan we refer to the owner/grand master (7th dan) as sabunim or profesor Carillo (Carillo is the last name of our master), his wife (4th dan) is sabunim or profesora Anette (first name), I am one of the senior instructors and all the students refers to me as Don Manuel (Don is a higer grade than señor/mister and denotes a highly respected person regulary an old and wise person), sambunims refer to me as Don Manuel or Mister Maraboto (my last name). So I am: Don Manuel or Señor Maraboto or simply kyosanim but, basically all the people (students,parents and professors) calls me Don Manuel.

Manny


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## TKD Scotland (May 18, 2011)

They just call me Daniel, but the head instructor at the Dojang gets eith "Sir" or "Mr.*His last name*"


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## andyjeffries (May 18, 2011)

We tend to use first names in class, so I'm Andy and my instructor is Carl.  If a visiting higher rank (that we don't know well) visits then we will use Master Jeffries or Master Lees (respectively), the same if we are at an event and in front of non-club members.  We refer to higher ranks/visiting instructors as Master/Grandmaster Surname.  The club's founder Grandmaster Pan is referred to as such, but we still call each other by first name in front of him.

When I start my new club in September, I will always be Master Jeffries.  The reason is that it's at a school (for children only) and they are used to calling all their teachers/sports coaches Title Surname.


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## Aikicomp (May 18, 2011)

All my students call me Mike, except for the kids. I keep telling them that they can call me Mike, but, they always call me Sensei Mike or just Sensei. I just gave up and let them call me sensei or Sensei Mike.

We always called my teacher Nick, and all the Blackbelts by their first name. There was no real reason to be so formal in our club.

Mike


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 18, 2011)

We pretty much stick with sir/maam for instructors and staff and first names for everyone else, including blackbelts.  My students address me as Mister Sullivan.  

Daniel


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## miguksaram (May 18, 2011)

For the most part everyone refers to black belt instructors as Sensei (first name).  However, for Sensei Sharkey, the owner of the school, he is just Sensei.  

I personally will call people either Sensei (first name) or Sir/M'am.  Even the kids I will address as sir/m'am as a way to lead by example.


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## sfs982000 (May 18, 2011)

Everyone regardless of rank are addressed as sir/maam or Mr./Mrs. (last name).  They keep it very formal in our school, but it does set a good example for the younger kids.


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## ATC (May 18, 2011)

We use Master or Sabum with Last Name and end all sentences with Sir or Maam. Instructors are titled as so and we use Instructor First Name. All Assistants are titled as such and will be addressed as, Assistant First Name.


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## IcemanSK (May 18, 2011)

My first instructor was a 5th Dan (and Korean) but had us call him "Mr. Kim," rather than Master. SBN, or sir. All other BB's were called by their first names, but "sir" or "ma'am" if they lead class or gave a command in the absence of SBN.

With that in mind, my students call me Mr., rather than Master. I call other instructors what they wish to be called. I'm more formal with them until or unless I'm asked not to be. My grandmaster has never called me by my first name. He either has called me Mr. or Master. While I wouldn't think of calling him by his first name, I sometimes am uncomfortable that he nwver calls me by mine.


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## masterchase (May 19, 2011)

For our association, Mr. Mrs. Miss for all black belts 1st-4th dan, even junior black belts.
Master for 5th dan and higher.   Grandmaster Lee for our kwan jang nim.    
When I referee at USAT events the referees use first names and it feels out of place for me, so I still use titles when I know them, such as Master Holloway.   No one ever insists on it, it's just my preferance because it was taught to me that way by my instructor.


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## tshadowchaser (May 19, 2011)

When addressing a black belt that I know I usually call them y first name, however there are a few that I address as Master or Grandmaster, due to there rank.
When I introduce a black belt to my students it is always as Mr/Ms/ Mrs &#8220;x&#8221; or master or grandmaster.
As for my class itself I am called Sheldon or Leopard or MR. Bedell . Charlie and Phil ( the 2 BB who are with me) prefer to only be called by their first names where ever they are.


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## Archtkd (May 19, 2011)

We use Mr., Miss, Ms., Mrs., Sir, Maam, Madam, and last names for all students regardless of age or rank. Titles with first names are a complete no, no, unless there's evidence or a strong rumor that one has been knighted. I tend to use last names with no title for students my age, who I have known for a long time, and are high gup or of yudanja rank.


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## puunui (May 19, 2011)

ATC said:


> We use Master or Sabum with Last Name and end all sentences with Sir or Maam. Instructors are titled as so and we use Instructor First Name. All Assistants are titled as such and will be addressed as, Assistant First Name.




How do they refer to you in Master Suh's dojang?


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## puunui (May 19, 2011)

masterchase said:


> For our association, Mr. Mrs. Miss for all black belts 1st-4th dan, even junior black belts. Master for 5th dan and higher.   Grandmaster Lee for our kwan jang nim.




I thought GM UHM Woon Kyu was your Kwan Jang, as opposed to GM LEE Tae Sung?


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## ATC (May 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> How do they refer to you in Master Suh's dojang?


As Sir.


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## puunui (May 19, 2011)

ATC said:


> As Sir.



Ok. What is your title at Master Suh's dojang, Master, Sabum, Instructor or Assistant? I would guess Assistant.


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## ATC (May 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> Ok. What is your title at Master Suh's dojang, Master, Sabum, Instructor or Assistant? I would guess Assistant.


Yes, Because I am not staff, I don't get paid. Only staff members can be Instructors no matter rank (even though you have to be at least a Black Belt). We have one 1st Dan and 1 3rd Dan as Instructors as well as 3 Master Instructors. If I were to work for them then I would be an instructor. We even have 3rd dans that are only assistants. I just can't afford to be an instructor. Even though I am there everyday and teach the late classes.


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## masterchase (May 20, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *masterchase*
> 
> 
> _For our association, Mr. Mrs. Miss for all black belts 1st-4th dan, even junior black belts. Master for 5th dan and higher. Grandmaster Lee for our kwan jang nim. _
> ...


 
We are chung do kwan Taekwondo.   But GM LEE Tae Sung is our Kwan Jang for our association of 13 dojangs.


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## Namii (May 20, 2011)

All of us students are called by our first names. Sabumnim doesnt care what we call him as long as its a respectful form, like Mr, Sir, Sabumnim, Master, etc. Our black belts are usually referred to as Mr. Last name.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 20, 2011)

Namii said:


> Our black belts are usually referred to as Mr. Last name.


Even the ladies???

Daniel


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## jthomas1600 (May 20, 2011)

In our TKD school the owner/head instructor is Master Lee. We have two ladies who are black belts and work at the school. They do some instructing, but mostly they help out with administrative tasks and they are addressed as Miss "first name". That format is pretty popular these days I think. There is one male black belt who also works at the school. He does more instructing than the two ladies and is referred to as Instructor "first name". All non staff black belts are known by the first name except in the case of kids addressing adults. Generally regardless of the belt (but certainly if it's a black belt) kids call adults Mr., Miss, or Mrs.


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## granfire (May 20, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Even the ladies???
> 
> Daniel



:lfao:


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## Namii (May 20, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Even the ladies???
> 
> Daniel



Haha! Funny.


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## mastercole (May 31, 2011)

hungryninja said:


> Some people address black belts as "Mr.", "Ms./Mrs." (or Master, Grandmaster, etc.) followed by their last name, while others address them as "Sir" or "Ma'am" followed by their first name.  Just curious if anyone knew how the latter designation came about.  Trend set by associations, schools, individual instructors?



I follow this.

1st Dan/Poom to 4th Poom/5th Dan, Yudanja (Yupoomja) is called Master

6th Dan to 9th Dan, Kodanja is called Grandmaster

Instructors are called Sabumnim

Master is a courtesy title for Black Belts, same as saying Mister, or Ma'am.

Grandmaster is a courtesy title for High Dan holders, same as saying Sir, or Ma'am

Sabumnim is only for main instructors who have been certified as such


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 3, 2011)

I go by Ethan more often than not amongst adult classes. Mr. T without exception in the kid's classes.

Of course, in Judo I'm whatever unflattering nickname Sensei or our other two coaches have come up with that week. :disgust:


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## andyjeffries (Jun 3, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> I go by Ethan more often than not amongst adult classes. Mr. T without exception in the kid's classes.



I pity the fool that attends your kids classes...

(sorry, couldn't resist it)


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 3, 2011)

Haha, I meant my last name. It starts with T. :lol:


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## jda (Jun 3, 2011)

Every one at our school is called Mr. Ms. Miss, or sir or ma'am. Regardless of age or belt rank.
Jim


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 3, 2011)

mastercole said:


> I follow this.
> 
> 1st Dan/Poom to 4th Poom/5th Dan, Yudanja (Yupoomja) is called Master
> 
> ...


So a first dan in your club is called "master"? Im not knocking it, Ive just never heard of that before.


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## mastercole (Jun 6, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> So a first dan in your club is called "master"? Im not knocking it, Ive just never heard of that before.



It's nothing I made up, I have been doing that for years now, ever since I returned from the 1st Foreign Instructors Training Qualification Training Course at the Kukkiwon's World Taekwondo Academy in 1998. 

It was then debated at length in the early days of internet Taekwondo debates. I received written clarification for both Kukkiwon and WTF, and the main editor of the WTF, Kukkiwon and KTA websites, GM LEE Kyong Myung (co author of the Modern History Book). He was the reviewer of the English Edition of the Kukkiwon Textbook, Chairman of the WTF Education Committee and main writer of the WTF Poomsae Judges Textbook.

I also asked this question of GM's PARK Hae Man and KIM Soon Bae, all writers and editors of the Kukkiwon Textbook.  Even after all this, it is still a hot potato, but that is why I enjoy it so much! It certainly rocks the boat of so-called tradition that has been set in place in foreign Taekwondo schools.  Reason?  Before 1998, on Korean Taekwondoin could take the instructor course, so all kinds of weird rules popped up to fill in the "instructor" title gap.

Here is what we have to consider:  Yudanja is 1st to 5th Dan. I think we have known this for a long time, but not really paid attention to it.  Kodanja is from 6th to 9th Dan. We have known this too, for a long time.  Why the separation?  

We have also known, well, since 1998, that Sabum was not just some title given out at 4th, 5th or whatever dan, that it is an actual designation by Kukkiwon. It means instructor, and according to Kukkiwon, the only way to receive this qualification is to #1. attend the "jidoja yunsuwon" or leadership academy course held by the "World Taekwondo Academy" at Kukkiwon (now in some other nations as well, like USTC in the USA), which is held for us foreigners once a year in Korea around July. Once you have successfully completed that course, and received your "graduation diploma", you can now use that diploma and apply to take the "Sabum Gye Gyuk Jung" exam (only if you hold 4th Dan Kukkiwon and above).  If you pass that test, you will gain a certification from Kukkiwon that states that you are a qualified "Taekwondo Sabum", or Taekwondo Instructor. Their are 3 classes of Sabum.  3rd, 2nd and 1st.

Of course in any dojang, anything goes!


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## mastercole (Jun 6, 2011)

Just a quick note:  

There was a lot of other things that I learned at that course. One of them was centered around discussions that we had been having HUGE debates over in the 90's.  Puunui in specific wanted to know if the Poomsae taught at the Kukkiwon Instructor course matches the Poomsae we see in the 1972 KTA Taekwondo Textbook (and that his instructor taught).

The answer was a profound YES, practically to the T.  And not only that, Puunui's instructor was the man teaching us our basic motions for the Poomsae at the Kukkiwon. He is also in that 1972 book as a Poomsae model, he also was on the Poomsae committee that created the Poomsae. My instructor was a graduate of that same course 18 years earlier in 1980, and his teacher was GM LEE Chong Woo, the director of the Poomsae Committee. So Puunui and I, having never met in person at that time, completely agreed on the issues surrounding Poomsae.

Later on, we finally met at some national event (Doug Feushel was talking to Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan about Pro Taekwondo in the lobby lounge area).  Later on, at some point Puunui and I were standing around with various well know Taekwondoin from the USA and explaining these points about Poomsae stressed at the instructor course, such as narrow and short stance, tight compact ending to the movements, etc. People thought we were crazy.  I remember Garth Cooley though took a keen interest in what we had to say, it was different and he was curious, but Garth is a true Champion and wanted to see what we were talking about and did not dismiss us like some others did. Interesting.  Now today Garth has went on to become a USA Poomsae team member, adapting the correct Poomsae, and probably knows more about Poomsae than most anyone in the USA. I'm not saying this was because Puunui and I discussed (I even demonstrated) this with him, but it is because some folks, like Garth, are always looking for the cutting edge and the true path, he searched it out his own way and had a 2nd life as a Poomsae champion, after he retired as a sparring champion.

But this did not come from me, or Puunui, it came form the "source".


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 7, 2011)

mastercole said:


> It's nothing I made up, I have been doing that for years now, ever since I returned from the 1st Foreign Instructors Training Qualification Training Course at the Kukkiwon's World Taekwondo Academy in 1998.
> 
> It was then debated at length in the early days of internet Taekwondo debates. I received written clarification for both Kukkiwon and WTF, and the main editor of the WTF, Kukkiwon and KTA websites, GM LEE Kyong Myung (co author of the Modern History Book). He was the reviewer of the English Edition of the Kukkiwon Textbook, Chairman of the WTF Education Committee and main writer of the WTF Poomsae Judges Textbook.
> 
> ...


Oh, that makes sense. We are not kukkiwon which is probably why I havent heard of that before.


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## mastercole (Jun 7, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Oh, that makes sense. We are not kukkiwon which is probably why I havent heard of that before.



You would have Kwan roots, even you your club does not follow Kukkiwon.

The designation of terms like Yudanja, Kodanja and Sabum have their roots in Japanese Karate (in Japanese terms meaning the same thing) and were also in use during the Kwan period way before Kukkiwon existed, it's not exclusive to Kukkiwon. 

Actually not much is exclusive to Kukkiwon, Kukkiwon became a sort of archive of information and knowledge, which is what it bases it's World Taekwondo Academy on. Kukkiwon did not create the forms, or most of the curriculum it endorses.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 7, 2011)

mastercole said:


> You would have Kwan roots, even you your club does not follow Kukkiwon.
> 
> The designation of terms like Yudanja, Kodanja and Sabum have their roots in Japanese Karate (in Japanese terms meaning the same thing) and were also in use during the Kwan period way before Kukkiwon existed, it's not exclusive to Kukkiwon.
> 
> Actually not much is exclusive to Kukkiwon, Kukkiwon became a sort of archive of information and knowledge, which is what it bases it's World Taekwondo Academy on. Kukkiwon did not create the forms, or most of the curriculum it endorses.


True. Most terms I hear on here are the same ones we use. Our curriculum seems a little different in parts, but most of the terminologies seem similar.


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## puunui (Jun 7, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Later on, we finally met at some national event (Doug Feushel was talking to Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan about Pro Taekwondo in the lobby lounge area).



That was the USTU Annual Meeting in Los Angeles I believe. Jidokwan President Lee looks exactly the same today as he did back then. I remember it was in the lobby of the hotel. We were sitting with President Lee and you came up and politely greeted everyone. 




mastercole said:


> Later on, at some point Puunui and I were standing around with various well know Taekwondoin from the USA and explaining these points about Poomsae stressed at the instructor course, such as narrow and short stance, tight compact ending to the movements, etc. People thought we were crazy.



A lot of people were very angry back then about the concept of the short narrow stance and a Kukkiwon standard. But now people don't argue about it so much. Enough have seen the videos and attended the courses and discovered it themselves. But back then a lot of people were taking it out on us, accusing us of lying about it all. We're not liars, mainly because there is no benefit to it. But shame on us for thinking others would be as excited to discover the truth as we were, that it doesn't have to be a big mystery, that the truth will set you free. 




mastercole said:


> I remember Garth Cooley though took a keen interest in what we had to say, it was different and he was curious, but Garth is a true Champion and wanted to see what we were talking about and did not dismiss us like some others did. Interesting.  Now today Garth has went on to become a USA Poomsae team member, adapting the correct Poomsae, and probably knows more about Poomsae than most anyone in the USA.



Other poomsae national team members told me that they first got encouraged by what we said about poomsae and the Kukkiwon Instructor Course on taekwondo net and other places. Imagine if more people went with the flow instead of fighting it tooth and nail. Imagine where the USA would be now in world poomsae. 




mastercole said:


> I'm not saying this was because Puunui and I discussed (I even demonstrated) this with him, but it is because some folks, like Garth, are always looking for the cutting edge and the true path, he searched it out his own way and had a 2nd life as a Poomsae champion, after he retired as a sparring champion.



Adapting and changing with the times is the best way I know of to stay in front of the pack. 




mastercole said:


> But this did not come from me, or Puunui, it came form the "source".



We don't set Kukkiwon policy, we just report what that policy is. But I'm at the point where I don't really care about keeping everyone informed about the latest development. If you or I don't do a single thing to help Taekwondo in the future, we will still get promoted and invited to everything. I'm thinking we should just keep it to ourselves in the future. Then everyone will be happy and can keep doing what they are doing, forever.


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## mastercole (Jun 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> Later on, we finally met at some national event (Doug Feushel was talking to Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan about Pro Taekwondo in the lobby lounge area).<<<
> 
> That was the USTU Annual Meeting in Los Angeles I believe. Jidokwan President Lee looks exactly the same today as he did back then. I remember it was in the lobby of the hotel. We were sitting with President Lee and you came up and politely greeted everyone.



I think had just ate rice & natto with salted fish and miso because I remember thinking it was one of the best breakfast in my life.  President Lee is amazing.  When I think of toughness mixed with kindness, he comes to mind. When I walked into the Jidokwan celebration in 2006, the greeting I received from President Lee and GM Chong Woo Lee was something I will never forget, such kindness directed toward me (a very junior person in that room) from such powerful seniors. I think about that every time I interact with my students and more and more I feel it's not me, what my students may learn comes through the chain and I am just one of many links. It's like a sense of nothingness, but in an interesting and powerful way.

There was a conversation about style a while back at my school. I thought about it and said, I don't have a style.  Some of my friends you can tell their students, they duck walk in poomsae, others sparring using mostly lead hand/lead leg, some bow in a weird way. I like it because my students can be in a international crowd of Taekwondoin and you could not pick out which ones were mine.  I never want to be remembered for having my own style, just being a part of the chain.




puunui said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> Later on, at some point Puunui and I were standing around with various well know Taekwondoin from the USA and explaining these points about Poomsae stressed at the instructor course, such as narrow and short stance, tight compact ending to the movements, etc. People thought we were crazy.<<<
> 
> A lot of people were very angry back then about the concept of the short narrow stance and a Kukkiwon standard. But now people don't argue about it so much. Enough have seen the videos and attended the courses and discovered it themselves. But back then a lot of people were taking it out on us, accusing us of lying about it all. We're not liars, mainly because there is no benefit to it. But shame on us for thinking others would be as excited to discover the truth as we were, that it doesn't have to be a big mystery, that the truth will set you free.



Yes, shame on us. The best part was we were viewed as heathens because of our perceived  anti-Poomsae position, and yet we come offering the most in depth and cutting edge info that could be found in the USA on Poomsae. That really got people's goat!  What is funny now is that I see schools around me that were always anti-Kukkiwon standard, from day one, for decades, and have just now in the past year or two come around to the Kukkiwon standard. These are some of the same folks that told me years ago that the Kukkiwon as all BS.   But like you said, it's changing all over the USA, and the world now.



puunui said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> I remember Garth Cooley though took a keen interest in what we had to say, it was different and he was curious, but Garth is a true Champion and wanted to see what we were talking about and did not dismiss us like some others did. Interesting. Now today Garth has went on to become a USA Poomsae team member, adapting the correct Poomsae, and probably knows more about Poomsae than most anyone in the USA.<<<
> 
> Other poomsae national team members told me that they first got encouraged by what we said about poomsae and the Kukkiwon Instructor Course on taekwondo net and other places. Imagine if more people went with the flow instead of fighting it tooth and nail. Imagine where the USA would be now in world poomsae.



It does amaze me at how long it took to adapt the standard here in the USA. Europe and the rest of the world seemed to adapt over night. When I was at Hanmadang in Dangjin, there was no US team, it was basically a battle between Europe, the Middle East and Korea, they were all excellent.




puunui said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> I'm not saying this was because Puunui and I discussed (I even demonstrated) this with him, but it is because some folks, like Garth, are always looking for the cutting edge and the true path, he searched it out his own way and had a 2nd life as a Poomsae champion, after he retired as a sparring champion.<<<
> 
> Adapting and changing with the times is the best way I know of to stay in front of the pack.



I think the next few years will be interesting times for change.



puunui said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mastercole
> But this did not come from me, or Puunui, it came form the "source".<<<
> 
> We don't set Kukkiwon policy, we just report what that policy is. But I'm at the point where I don't really care about keeping everyone informed about the latest development. If you or I don't do a single thing to help Taekwondo in the future, we will still get promoted and invited to everything. I'm thinking we should just keep it to ourselves in the future. Then everyone will be happy and can keep doing what they are doing, forever.



I certainly see where you stand. Pushing against the tide of ignorance can get tiresome. I think of the big seniors who shunned the lime light to the point many practitioners did not know, and still don't know who they are and what they did. They are very comfortable with that.


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