# McDojo -- how do you define it?



## Rumy73 (Feb 25, 2013)

I never liked the term McDojo. It is rather judgmental and crass. However, I empathize with people who are frustrated at what seems to be the dumbing down of the art. 

What elements make a school a McDojo? Has anyone actually attended one?


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## Cyriacus (Feb 25, 2013)

Yeah. A few years ago i, an ignorant newbie to martial arts, spent a year and a bit learning how to not hit anyone whilst backpedalling. Of course, it was _a highly effective martial art that was too deadly to be practiced with any contact,_ and it was drastically overpriced because_ if you want the best you get what you pay for_. Oh, and the instructor was allowed to hit people because shutup. Also, if a block or strike wasnt working its because your technique wasnt good enough and you needed to train more. Nothing wrong with the method, obviously. Now i find it hilariously stupid, but they had alot of students, mostly kids, being taught this _self defense_. There were also numerous adults, who, after about two years spent getting their black belts after a rather expensive black belt grading, were molded into instructors, for a fee, by the head instructor. If you werent interested, you never progressed. Theyd attached alot of time and money to it by that point, and based on that i can say with confidence that the blinkers were on.

Theres alot more than that, but ill just move along:

Its easier to take the term McDojo when youve seen it. Im just glad i wasnt stupid enough to get sucked into it any longer than i was, and that the moment i started seeing the problems, i ditched them for something better in every way and spent another year or so resenting the fact that i had to un-learn everything id drilled in there. Basically, that meant unlearning being too far away to do anything, unlearning slow motion windups before a fast movement, unlearning backpedalling the moment something comes toward you, and unlearning a one-hit-one-kill mindset. But generally, somethings wrong when A; You were better at hitting stuff before you started, and B; The training caused actually being in range and actually making any contact to be a serious conscious effort. And C; You didnt learn anything youd actually be able to use under pressure. What i despise most though? When you learn something new, you tend to unlearn some of what youd do naturally. When you unlearn that, and learn something to replace it, you override that further, but you have to or you might not forget the first one for a while. Honestly, if i could magically forget every bit of training id ever done just to retain some more of that natural response rather than trained method, id do it in a splitsecond. But i cant, so overriding things as best i can was the best and only option, even if something was lost along the way.

So yes, the term is judgmental and crass. And so it should be. Stupid is stupid however you spin it, and there shouldnt be a term for it that isnt judgemental. And a term absolutely should exist, because ive read about places far worse than that, and far more expensive. I couldnt care less about the dumbing down of the art, i care about people paying to be dumbed down and not knowing its happening.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 25, 2013)

In my humble opinion, a "McDojo" is a "martial arts" school that puts financial gain above maintaining the integrity of the arts. 

I think the most commonly accepted example of "McDojo" behavior is the promotion of those that lack skill and maturity. A school where one can obtain the rank of black belt in a year's time or less is usually a prime example. It gives the impression that one can simply "buy" their rank without earning it. 

Some would extend that to awarding children the rank of black belt. Personally, I don't believe a child posesses the mental capacity to be a "black belt" even if they can mimic the motion, but that's a subject for another thread. 

The term "McDojo" arose due to commercial schools moving students through the program to the rank of "black belt" in such a speedy manner as to be equated with a line of customers at a drive-through at a fast food restaraunt. 

Americans have developed quite a short attention span over the years and demand "instant gratification." Recognizing this behavior, many schools adopted a "assembly line" mentality as a business model and began churning out "black belts" left and right... and so, you have the development of the "McDojo."


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 25, 2013)

Try searching it, sometimes theres a thread for exactly what you're looking for!
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/45321-How-do-you-define-a-quot-mcdojo-quot
Just out of curiosity, why did you post this in TKD? There are mcdojos in all forms of MA, it's not specific to TKD.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 25, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> Try searching it, sometimes theres a thread for exactly what you're looking for!
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/45321-How-do-you-define-a-quot-mcdojo-quot
> Just out of curiosity, why did you post this in TKD? There are mcdojos in all forms of MA, it's not specific to TKD.



Just a guess, but after looking at their profile I would assume it's because they are a TKD practicioner. 

That being said, a lot of TKD schools get labeled as such and I can see why this would be frustrating to someone in that system.


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## K-man (Feb 25, 2013)

Unfortunately, I also got caught in a McDojo.  I had given my karate away a few years earlier and someone knocked on my door offering what I thought was a similar style MA. (In fact it was a breakaway from my original style.). The 'instructor', who was wearing a black belt in class turned out to be a junior brown belt, which explained his lack of ability from my point of view. I had to go back to white belt, which didn't bother me, and pay through the nose to grade, which did.  I went in one of their tournaments but lost points for 'touching' my opponent. One the other hand, my opponent scored points for punching the air a foot in front of my face, which I failed to block because I hadn't perceived it to be a threat, and kiaiing extra loudly.  

I actually just went to look on their website where they talk about training in a 'non-contact' environment. Yeah, right! That sounds like RBSD ... not!

This organisation is quite large and very successful for the owner and franchisees but offers nothing in the way of self defence and very little of value in a training sense. But they do take your money.

i very soon left and found another school.    :asian:


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## Gorilla (Feb 25, 2013)

It is vastly overused by many on the internet!


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## Drasken (Feb 25, 2013)

The main thing that defines a McDojo for me is a school that will "Fast track" a student to black belt in one or two years for an extra charge. I attended one school briefly that wanted to test me and basically give me yellow belt for 120 bucks. This doesn't sound like something to complain about, but realize I passed their "test" and I had taken a total of 3 one hour classes and obviously didn't have the knowledge or skill required. I told them that I would not be participating anymore, they could keep their belt and never went back.

Another qualifier is a dojo that claims to teach an art when it is clear the instructors are not qualified or they use a martial arts name for popularity's sake and they don't actually teach that art at all. This is unfortunately common with so called Krav Maga schools. It is unethical and despicable. It's also fraud and they should be prosecuted for such in my opinion.

The last qualifier for title of Mcdojo that comes to mind is the dojos that claim self defense training and really teach a watered down tournament style. Don't get me wrong, tournaments are great fun. I have nothing against them. But don't teach your students that they are capable of defending themselves and teach them bad habits like keeping their hands down because strikes to the face aren't legal in tournament sparring. This is also fraud in my eyes. Teaching self defense should be key, if tournament sparring comes with that, then  great. Now that being said, if a school is upfront about teaching specifically tournament martial arts, then I have no problem with that. Just be honest.

That is the basics of my qualifications for a Mcdojo.


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## Gorilla (Feb 25, 2013)

Martial talk gave you a yellow belt in just 35 posts!!!!  :lurk:



Drasken said:


> The main thing that defines a McDojo for me is a school that will "Fast track" a student to black belt in one or two years for an extra charge. I attended one school briefly that wanted to test me and basically give me yellow belt for 120 bucks. This doesn't sound like something to complain about, but realize I passed their "test" and I had taken a total of 3 one hour classes and obviously didn't have the knowledge or skill required. I told them that I would not be participating anymore, they could keep their belt and never went back.
> 
> Another qualifier is a dojo that claims to teach an art when it is clear the instructors are not qualified or they use a martial arts name for popularity's sake and they don't actually teach that art at all. This is unfortunately common with so called Krav Maga schools. It is unethical and despicable. It's also fraud and they should be prosecuted for such in my opinion.
> 
> ...


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## Cyriacus (Feb 25, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Martial talk gave you a yellow belt in just 35 posts!!!!  :lurk:


He may have bought it on ebay...


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## Drasken (Feb 25, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Martial talk gave you a yellow belt in just 35 posts!!!!  :lurk:



Lol that is actually quite funny that you point that out. But imagine ranking up in any fighting system by walking in and paying for the rank. It would be like going to sign up for college courses and paying extra to just have a degree signed over to you. It does a disservice to the art. Not only do people not learn the art properly which could get them potentially hurt, but eventually if everyone learns this way... well it could potentially mean the end of a martial art down the road.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 25, 2013)

McDojo:

"If you can afford it, we will award it."


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 25, 2013)

1. overcharging. There is nothing wrong with making a good profit from martial arts as long as students get value for that money.  2.Passing grading is based upon your cheque clearing. A grading is an exam, no different from any other exam, if you stuff up you fail. Try again next time. 3. A martial arts instructor should have decent rank in the art to teach it. If the instructor leaves their first gup student to look after class every other night, its probably a mcdojo. 4. A dojo is a place to train. If you enter the dojo and kids are running around playing "tiggy" or tackling each other and laughing, yelling and screaming......you could well be in a mcdojo. 5. If merely "showing up to class" for a couple of years without any real tests or challenges along the way will ensure the 'inevitable' black belt, its a mcdojo. 6.practice what you preach. If you have a sign out the front with a picture of two guys sparring at the olympics, you should be kkw accredited. If you splash "self defence" all over your advertising material, then some real self defence should be taught. 7.black belt contracts are a staple of mcdojos.
*just an edit - one of these points by itself would not necessarily make a school a mcdojo, but once you start to tick two or three boxes its time to worry.


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## K-man (Feb 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> McDojo:
> 
> "If you can afford it, we will award it."


Love it!     :cheers:


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## Makalakumu (Feb 25, 2013)

A Mcdojo is what some people want and others don't. A Mcdojo is a school that offers watered down martial arts training.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Unfortunately, I also got caught in a McDojo.  I had given my karate away a few years earlier and someone knocked on my door offering what I thought was a similar style MA. (In fact it was a breakaway from my original style.). The 'instructor', who was wearing a black belt in class turned out to be a junior brown belt, which explained his lack of ability from my point of view. I had to go back to white belt, which didn't bother me, and pay through the nose to grade, which did.  I went in one of their tournaments but lost points for 'touching' my opponent. One the other hand, my opponent scored points for punching the air a foot in front of my face, which I failed to block because I hadn't perceived it to be a threat, and kiaiing extra loudly.
> 
> I actually just went to look on their website where they talk about training in a 'non-contact' environment. Yeah, right! That sounds like RBSD ... not!
> 
> ...


I have feeling I know of this school. A friend of mine had a very similar experience there.


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## msmitht (Feb 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I never liked the term McDojo. It is rather judgmental and crass. However, I empathize with people who are frustrated at what seems to be the dumbing down of the art.
> 
> What elements make a school a McDojo? Has anyone actually attended one?



All American tae kwon do association (ATA) schools and united studios of self defense! Many others like Dillman and Pelligrini run and certify bullshido type schools.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 26, 2013)

msmitht said:


> All American tae kwon do association (ATA) schools and united studios of self defense! Many others like Dillman and Pelligrini run and certify bullshido type schools.


OUCH.
Sad that Pelligrini is now certifying TKD BB. Went to a Bill Wallace seminar his group hosted. At one point they announced that  as part of a BB test some people would now perform a pattern.  After the pattern I asked my guys. "How did you like Po Eun?" Their response "That was Po Eun?". It was almostrunrecognizeable. 
Talked to the people who did it and it seems they only did one or 2 patterns for BB Rank, as opposed to the standard 3 for 1st thru 5th. I'd also bet dollars to dounuts  that if I asked them why they did techniques a certain way, they would be clueless.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I never liked the term McDojo. It is rather judgmental and crass. However, I empathize with people who are frustrated at what seems to be the dumbing down of the art.
> 
> What elements make a school a McDojo? Has anyone actually attended one?



Why would it be judgemental or crass?  Perhaps it is an honest assesstment.  And it is a dumbing down of the arts.

Elements that would make a McDojo (or McDojang)...

Putting commercial/financial goals above the integrity of the art.

Teaching cookie-cutter kata/forms without actually knowing what those katas/forms contain.

Rushing to teach a kata/form so that the student can get that next pretty colored belt in the three month time frame...because if they don't they're liable to go somewhere else i.e. gotta keep the carrot in front of them rather than teaching slow and methodically with the art actually fullfilling the need rather than an exterior trinket.

Black belts running around that are still in diapers and aren't potty-trained.

Those that teach sport arts that go on to claim it is viable for self-defense.

The instructor joins every organization they can find just to get the wall candy or pad the bio but then does nothing for that organization.  

There's more, but that should do for now.


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## Instructor (Feb 26, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> In my humble opinion, a "McDojo" *is a "martial arts" school that puts financial gain above maintaining the integrity of the arts. *
> 
> I think the most commonly accepted example of "McDojo" behavior is the promotion of those that lack skill and maturity. A school where one can obtain the rank of black belt in a year's time or less is usually a prime example. It gives the impression that one can simply "buy" their rank without earning it.
> 
> ...



I couldn't have said it any better myself.  The moment teaching martial arts becomes about the bottom line, all is lost.  Really great schools can be profitable but they are profitable because they are great.  Excellent understanding of the art and excellent ability to pass it on to dedicated students should be the keystones.


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## Metal (Feb 26, 2013)

Any dojang that reminds me of "The Foot Fist Way" is a McDojo. ;-)







Instructor's that have numerous high dan gradings in several asrts and create their own 'system' are also an indicator to me.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2013)

If the guy teaching the class looks like this







It's a McDojo

If the Senior students look like this






It's a McDojo


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I never liked the term McDojo. It is rather judgmental and crass. However, I empathize with people who are frustrated at what seems to be the dumbing down of the art.
> 
> What elements make a school a McDojo? Has anyone actually attended one?



A McDojo is, as the name implies, a business model.  It is the result of entrepreneurs figuring out what element of a martial arts school are profitable and what elements could be added to facilitated greater attendance, retention (of income), and profits.

*Greater attendence:*
After school programs provide an alternative to 'daycare' that not only enables kids to attend, but also enriches the school, as it is another service provided by the school.  A focus on children and tween classes also increases attendance.  It also increases profits, as parents are more inclined to pay the various extra fees, such as belt tests.  Family classes are another method of increasing attendence; get mom/dad and kids together.

*Greater retention:*
Retention is always an issue, but it is retention of income that is key here.  Service contracts insure that income will be retained for a one or a two year period, sometimes longer.  Keep in mind, the student may have packed up and left, but the automatic bank draft will continue unless he closes the account, at which point the billing service goes after him.

*Profits:*
Every business seeks to increase sales and profits.  It is good business sense.  The additional belts, each with its own test and testing fee, increase profits.  A pro shop can increase profits, depending on the art, and requiring students to buy either federation branded gear (which is likely unavailable anywhere else close) or to simply buy all of their equipment from you, and by requiring equipment (implementation of weapons programs into a traditionally weaponless art like taekwondo, foor example), pro shop profits can be greatly enhanced.  Those afterschool programs that I mentioned earlier also provide greater profit.  

A demonstration team is another profit builder, as it often requires participants to pay to be on the team, purchase special equipment and uniforms, and it produces and advertisement that pays you, instead of the usual paying out for advertising.

Then there are various extra cost programs, such as black belt clubs, leadership clubs, masters clubs, etc.

You'll notice that pretty much every McDojo incorporates most or all of these elements; it's what makes it a *Mc*Dojo.  Look at McDonalds, which is where the term comes from: all of the elements that make the franchise profitable have been figured out and implemented.  Everything is done by formula.  For a school owner with little business experience, this is certainly a boon.

You'll also notice that I left out any mention of the quality of instruction.  I'm not going to get into how good or bad the instruction is; I have seen McDojos with fine instructors and well trained students.  I have seen McDojos with under-qualified/over-ranked instructors with under-trained/over-promoted students.  I have even seen one shift from the former to the latter.

About the only element that directly impacts the instruction is the proliferation of and importance of belts coupled with service contracts.  Because of the high degree of profit that belt tests bring in, and because it is difficult to get people to purchase a contract for more than a year or two, belt testing is done on a schedule and teaching is geared towards the test rather than simply teaching.  Though not automatic, this dynamic tends to adversely affect the structure of the curriculum (usually overinflating it) and the ability of students to retain and/or develop any depth to what they have learned.

Now, if this dynamic stoped after ildan/chodan/shodan/first dan/first degree/black-belt/whatever term is used at a particular school, and students were then focused on perfecting and developing depth in the barage of material that they have spent the last 12-14 months learning *and* if the black belt were not inflated to mean 'expert' in the mind of the student (and his/her parents if the student is a child), then it wouldn't be a problem.  

Keep in mind that there is nothing preventing a McDojo from doing this, but since the focus is on keeping people coming back for more, new material must be introduced.  Thus weapons programs (usually fluff) are added if the art does not already have one.  

Certain arts are more susceptible to this than others.  Karate and taekwondo seem to be the hit the hardest, mainly because of their appeal and because the belt structure and use of different kata/tul/hyeong/pumsae is already in place.  I would argue that arts with solo forms are inherently more adaptable to this model precisely because they provide a new 'form' with every new belt, and it is very easy to get people to memorize and perform solo forms without having to go into any real depth in the form along the way.  KKW taekwondo is more susceptible to this than karate and perhaps other TKD styles because bunkai is not generally a part of pumsae instruction (applications are taught through other avenues).

Because KKW taekwondo usually come with WTF sparring, a well developed tournament circuit that goes all the way to the Olympics, specialized equimpment that can be sold in a school's pro shop, and the opportunity for a school to earn lots of trophies (they look great in the window), it is even more appealing to the entrepreneur looking to cash in on a martial arts school.  

I'd say that the ATA is susceptible to it, but that would be incorrect; the ATA has embraced it, and may even be the Henry Ford of McDojos.  Note: I am not discounting (nor upholding) the quality of instruction.  I have never trained in an ATA school, so I have no basis to criticize the general level of instruction within that federation.

So what it really comes back down to is the individual school owner.  About the only thing that really turns me off in all that I mentioned is the use of billing companies/contracts.  The rest of it is forgivable *if* the instruction is good.  

The business model itself is fairly successful.  Done with care and thought, it can be the best of both worlds.  Done as a purely financial venture.... well, I suspect we've all seen where that can lead.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2013)

If this is the Grandmaster, Founder, S&#333;ke, Grand Poobah and/or Grand Imperial Poobah of your MA system






It's a McDojo 


OK. I'm finished...I'll go no :EG:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> OUCH.
> Sad that Pelligrini is now certifying TKD BB.


When I spoke with him, I asked him a lot of questions regarding hapkido, but we never discussed taekwondo.  Presumably either he, or someone on his staff, is a KKW sadan. 

I know he offers access to the KKW.  I would be curious as to how he handles promotions within his own ITA.  

http://www.dsihq.com/tae-kwon-do.html

I am even more curious as to why he bothers at all and simply rank people as he does in CHKD.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 26, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When I spoke with him, I asked him a lot of questions regarding hapkido, but we never discussed taekwondo.  Presumably either he, or someone on his staff, is a KKW sadan.
> 
> I know he offers access to the KKW.  I would be curious as to how he handles promotions within his own ITA.
> 
> ...



I'm not familiar with his KKW connection but I am familiar with this.

 in 1999, the ICHF was recognized by the Korea Kido Association and the World Kido Federation, collectively known as the Kido Hae, as the Hapkido style _Chon Tu Kwan Hapkido_.[SUP][2][/SUP] The World Kido Federation is recognized by the Government of South Korea as an organization that serves as a link between the official Martial Arts governing body of Korea and the rest of the world Martial Arts community.
[SUP]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Hapkido[/SUP]


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## James Kovacich (Feb 26, 2013)

Over 20 years ago I once trained in one for 6 months but on purpose (not sure if McDojo was a term yet). I was a student of my brother-in-law in Japanese based system and I wanted to spend more time on my kicks. I was walking through a mall (not a strip mall, a real mall) and one of the instructors was at the door trying to get people to come inside. Basically, i wanted to work more heavily on my kicks and I trained there 2 days a week on my off days from my brother-in-laws classes. 

It wasn't a bad experience, I got exactly what I sought. With that said, TKD, while it may have spawned the term McDojo, it unfairly gets to heavily connected to the word. There is good TKD out there. Examples of SF Bay Area schools who were good are Choi's TKD, Byong Yu's TKD (Formerly Bay Area) Sam Montogomery's TKD, and Ernie Reyes TKD. 

Choi's taught Ernie Reyes who could be considered a McDojo owner. I remember my brother-inlaw showing me Ernies monthly earnings which was grossing more than 25 thousand a month (around 1990-91). They used the same collection agency, EFC, which published the top earners for EFC schools to see. I know that Ernie added in "some" Inayan Eskrima and BJJ into his curriculum. 

All I'm saying is TKD may be associated but in the same breath there is good TKD, traditional and eclectic.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2013)

msmitht said:


> All American tae kwon do association (ATA) schools and united studios of self defense! Many others like Dillman and Pelligrini run and certify bullshido type schools.


Complete disagreement here, mainly with the word 'all'. Any style or substyle/chain can have mcdojos, but they can also have good teachers who teach legitimate MA effectively. I guarantee you that there is at least one good MAist from each (starting out there)..they must have learned something good there if they became good MAists due to the schools, which means they most likely had good teachers at those schools, which IMO means they were not Mcdojos.


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## Markku P (Feb 26, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> Choi's taught Ernie Reyes who could be considered a McDojo owner. I remember my brother-inlaw showing me Ernies monthly earnings which was grossing more than 25 thousand a month (around 1990-91). They used the same collection agency, EFC, which published the top earners for EFC schools to see. I know that Ernie added in "some" Inayan Eskrima and BJJ into his curriculum.
> 
> All I'm saying is TKD may be associated but in the same breath there is good TKD, traditional and eclectic.



I wouldn't consider Ernie Reyes Sr and his schools as "Mcdojo" at all. OK, He is making lot of money but what I have seen about his students, their technical level is really good. And Ernie Reyes Sr. He is just amazing


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## msmitht (Feb 26, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> Complete disagreement here, mainly with the word 'all'. Any style or substyle/chain can have mcdojos, but they can also have good teachers who teach legitimate MA effectively. I guarantee you that there is at least one good MAist from each (starting out there)..they must have learned something good there if they became good MAists due to the schools, which means they most likely had good teachers at those schools, which IMO means they were not Mcdojos.


A good teacher of a flawed, crap system is still running a mcdojo. Doesn't matter how good he/she is if the system itself sucks.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 26, 2013)

Markku P said:


> I wouldn't consider Ernie Reyes Sr and his schools as "Mcdojo" at all. OK, He is making lot of money but what I have seen about his students, their technical level is really good. And Ernie Reyes Sr. He is just amazing



I agree. That was poor wording on my part because Ernie Reyes schools are not McDojo's but someone that does not know better may think they are. That is more what I meant. I was just only using the parameters what is perceived by most, cardio kickboxing, lots of students, lots of money, lots of schools (10 I believe before he let his students take most over and become owners). He proves my original point very well! 

Also, Ernies schools test a lot. Ernie himself not long ago tested for his 8th degree, probably not because he needed but so he could continue promoting his longtime students. Thats my take anyway.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2013)

msmitht said:


> A good teacher of a flawed, crap system is still running a mcdojo. Doesn't matter how good he/she is if the system itself sucks.


By all accounts, the ATA taekwondo system is itself servicable.  From what I have read on their websites and from feedback from ATA members, the organization is definitely very focused on the financial success of its schools and tends to be rather pricey.  So in their case, I would say that it actually _does _matter how good he/she is.  

I've never heard of United Studios of Self Defense, so I make no comment.


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## Instructor (Feb 26, 2013)

Therein lies the crux of the term.  If the school is doing a great job of teaching people martial arts then in my humble opinion it's not a McDojo.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2013)

Instructor said:


> Therein lies the crux of the term.  If the school is doing a great job of teaching people martial arts then in my humble opinion it's not a McDojo.



I try to distinguish between a McDojo and a flat out crappy school.  

If I go to a school with black belt clubs, a banner that says, "We are a blackbelt school," masters club, more than eight belts, service contracts, and an afterschool program, I consider it a McDojo based on its structure and business practices.  I make no judgement of the instruction until I watch a regular class and an advanced (shodan/ildan or equivalent) class.


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## Instructor (Feb 26, 2013)

Also every martial arts school has to have SOME sort of business model.  Even the guy that teaches free at the YMCA still has essential expenses and has to meet them.

My issue primarily is when they aren't teaching martial arts anymore.  Just glorified daycare.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 26, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When I spoke with him, I asked him a lot of questions regarding hapkido, but we never discussed taekwondo.  Presumably either he, or someone on his staff, is a KKW sadan.
> 
> .



Having a KKW connection and certifying BB rank for people doing a non KKW curriculum, in this case the Chang Hun system is OK with the KKW?


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## Gnarlie (Feb 26, 2013)

A McDojo is where you get 2 All-Beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickled onions, on a sesame seed bun, and a free black belt on the back of your Happy Meal box to cut out and colour in. The free toy of the week is a light-up set of nunchaku, and the whole thing with no added colours*, flavourings, or actual martial content.

*actual belt colours and flavourings may vary. Limited edition camouflage velcro fastening belts available for a short time only while stocks last, with a joint 12 month subscription to Splits Club and Teenstructors.

Just like our namesake Maccy Ds, our figurehead is a clown too...


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> Having a KKW connection and certifying BB rank for people doing a non KKW curriculum, in this case the Chang Hun system is OK with the KKW?



Yes, it is. This is not news. There have been KKW people here posting invitations to get this sort of assimilation rank.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> Having a KKW connection and certifying BB rank for people doing a non KKW curriculum, in this case the Chang Hun system is OK with the KKW?



If I remember correctly from the many discussions with Puunui last summer, I believe the answer is yes with regards to ITF/Chang hon practitioners.  I will refer you back to any number of threads where Puunui elaborated on this subject.  

As far as GM Pellegrini, either he or someone on his staff is ranked highly enough to sign off on dan certificates.  Or, as someone else suggested, he has some connection through the Kido Hae.  

Do you (or anyone else) know if he holds any dan grade in taekwondo?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2013)

msmitht said:


> A good teacher of a flawed, crap system is still running a mcdojo. Doesn't matter how good he/she is if the system itself sucks.


If a teacher is good and elps create great martial artists using a certain system, then clearly the system itself is not at fault, but instead some of the other teachers who fail to make the system work.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> By all accounts, the ATA taekwondo system is itself servicable.  From what I have read on their websites and from feedback from ATA members, the organization is definitely very focused on the financial success of its schools and tends to be rather pricey.  So in their case, I would say that it actually _does _matter how good he/she is.
> 
> I've never heard of United Studios of Self Defense, so I make no comment.


USSD is a chain that teaches shaolin kempo, but has bad hiring practices and many schools end up with *ahem* sub-par teachers. However, they teach shaolin kempo which in itself is a fine art, and many offshoots of USSD teach shaolin kempo very effectively..my instructor originally learned it before getting fed up with the business aspects and ranking system after around 3rd degree black belt (the chain itself has mcdojo ideas..if you dont teach and dont own a successful chain, its impossible to continue grading) and started his own system. I can assure anyone that he is not a product of a mcdojo, as he created and still consistently beats me in sparring matches, and I still have much to learn, and everywhere I have cross-trained those instructors are impressed with my ability and technique. So basically, he's proof USSD is serviceable as well. 
As for business practices, basically same thing as ATA..organization is focused on financial success, but with the right teacher is still a good system.


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 26, 2013)

I guess I came from a Mcdojo ish background. It taught two martial arts both of which I now hold blackbelts in.I paid for my rank exams however I had to be able to pass the required techniques for each belt level. We tested every two months. Once again you had to know the techniques to be ready to test. I believe they had a Black Belt Program which I was not in. The original school I was in the owner focused on money but the other instructors  picked up his slack. I made sure I was comfortable before even trying for my next rank. I would guess my trainig wasnt traditional so it would seem to some of you I suck at martial arts because I didnt go to a school that has been around for 200 years. Some people have a lot more money then I where they could travel to a Traditional school. Or lived in a town with one. Some dont have that luxury. I no longer have an instructor because I moved out of state. The closest school of any kind is 45 mins away and im not sure any of those would be traditiional enough for some people on here. i agree people should be able to acyually defend themselves if they practice a martial art. I also think McDojo dont care about the students as much. However some people dont have an option since most truly traditional schools dont have many branches to train in. Just a rant.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2013)

OK I lied...I wasn't done :EG:

If your school has the golden arches in its logo
















It's a McDojo


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 26, 2013)

Thanks. It didnt have arches though.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2013)

Hapkidoguy said:


> Thanks. It didnt have arches though.



You're welcome, but it was not directed at you or any single person here, it was to the thread in general, see page 2 of the thread,...I did something similar on that page too :EG:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 26, 2013)

Hapkidoguy said:


> I guess I came from a Mcdojo ish background. It taught two martial arts both of which I now hold blackbelts in.I paid for my rank exams however I had to be able to pass the required techniques for each belt level. We tested every two months. Once again you had to know the techniques to be ready to test. I believe they had a Black Belt Program which I was not in. The original school I was in the owner focused on money but the other instructors  picked up his slack. I made sure I was comfortable before even trying for my next rank. I would guess my trainig wasnt traditional so it would seem to some of you I suck at martial arts because I didnt go to a school that has been around for 200 years. Some people have a lot more money then I where they could travel to a Traditional school. Or lived in a town with one. Some dont have that luxury. I no longer have an instructor because I moved out of state. The closest school of any kind is 45 mins away and im not sure any of those would be traditiional enough for some people on here. i agree people should be able to acyually defend themselves if they practice a martial art. I also think McDojo dont care about the students as much. However some people dont have an option since most truly traditional schools dont have many branches to train in. Just a rant.



I'm getting that your thinking "traditional" is key. I'm positive there are many who can attest that "eclectic" is just as good. What matters is a good instructor and your desire. 

Unless we live in a perfect world, which don't.  We don't really choose our paths, we just follow them. 



Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 26, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> I'm getting that your thinking "traditional" is key. I'm positive there are many who can attest that "eclectic" is just as good. What matters is a good instructor and your desire.



If we follow it back far enough, all 'traditional' styles were once 'eclectic' themselves.


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## jks9199 (Feb 26, 2013)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation professional, objective, and respectful.  Remember that the Rules here prohibit art bashing.  That doesn't mean you may not discuss or compare the relative merits, strengths, and failings of an art or instructional model, but that you must do so in a respectful and objective manner.  "All XYZ schools suck!" is not respectful.   There have been several excellent posts, and I really, really don't want to be locking another TKD thread, and issuing infractions.

jks9199
Asst. Moderator


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## Gorilla (Feb 26, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Lol that is actually quite funny that you point that out. But imagine ranking up in any fighting system by walking in and paying for the rank. It would be like going to sign up for college courses and paying extra to just have a degree signed over to you. It does a disservice to the art. Not only do people not learn the art properly which could get them potentially hurt, but eventually if everyone learns this way... well it could potentially mean the end of a martial art down the road.



You are only 462 posts away from a BB:flame:


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## Rumy73 (Feb 26, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> Try searching it, sometimes theres a thread for exactly what you're looking for!
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/45321-How-do-you-define-a-quot-mcdojo-quot
> Just out of curiosity, why did you post this in TKD? There are mcdojos in all forms of MA, it's not specific to TKD.



Because I study TKD and like hearing from others who do. It is not a slant against TKD.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 26, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Lol that is actually quite funny that you point that out. But imagine ranking up in any fighting system by walking in and paying for the rank. It would be like going to sign up for college courses and paying extra to just have a degree signed over to you. It does a disservice to the art. Not only do people not learn the art properly which could get them potentially hurt, but eventually if everyone learns this way... well it could potentially mean the end of a martial art down the road.



Did you know that during the early modern era (1500s - 1800s), people with means bought commissions as military officers. Yikes!


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## Rumy73 (Feb 26, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> If the guy teaching the class looks like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please try to be constructive.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Please try to be constructive.



Sorry, I apparently brought a sense of humor to a "serious discussion&#8221; about McDojo... I will do my best to not let it happen again


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## Rumy73 (Feb 26, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sorry, I apparently brought a sense of humor to a "serious discussion about McDojo... I will do my best to not let it happen again



I am going to kindly ask that you refrain from commenting on my topics.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Because I study TKD and like hearing from others who do. It is not a slant against TKD.


Fair enough. Most people check all the forums anyway, was just curious if you were one of those who think mcdojo is synonymous with TKD *shudders* glad that you're not


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## Drasken (Feb 26, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> You are only 462 posts away from a BB:flame:



Does that mean that soon I'll be able to sell DVDs about how to successfully post on web forums!? This is exciting!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Does that mean that soon I'll be able to sell DVDs about how to successfully post on web forums!? This is exciting!


post on web forums...teach the most lethal and effective street martial art, teach the only REAL martial art (obviously the one jedis use :jediduel...same thing really


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## Gorilla (Feb 26, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Does that mean that soon I'll be able to sell DVDs about how to successfully post on web forums!? This is exciting!



Absolutely!!!!:rules:


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## Gorilla (Feb 26, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Absolutely!!!!:rules:



Someday you will be a Master BB like me!:bangahead:


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I am going to kindly ask that you refrain from commenting on my topics.



all of them or just this one....  either way....no I will post and comment where I wish too within the rules of MT.


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## granfire (Feb 26, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> If the guy teaching the class looks like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can't compete with this gem then:





and I did not even mean the grammatical faux pas and the spelling mistake....


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 26, 2013)

granfire said:


> I can't compete with this gem then:



But wait there's more, order now and you get a choice of the pocket fisherman, chia pet or the ginsu knives (separate shipping and handling charges apply).  Call in the next 30 minutes and you'll get your BB increased to 2nd Dan for FREE!!  Operators are standing by!!!


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## granfire (Feb 26, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> But wait there's more, order now and you get a choice of the pocket fisherman, chia pet or the ginsu knives (separate shipping and handling charges apply).  Call in the next 30 minutes and you'll get your BB increased to 2nd Dan for FREE!!  Operators are standing by!!!



hahahahahaha, had not even thought it that far through!

But he trusts you enough to complete the course!


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 26, 2013)

granfire said:


> hahahahahaha, had not even thought it that far through!
> 
> But he trusts you enough to complete the course!



I saw that!  Darn nice of him I must say....give him $1250 bucks and he'll send you your BB and his trust you'll watch the DVD's.  Plus you get a T-shirt with the whole thing!  I don't see how you can go wrong.


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## granfire (Feb 26, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I saw that!  Darn nice of him I must say....give him $1250 bucks and he'll send you your BB and his trust you'll watch the DVD's.  Plus you get a T-shirt with the whole thing!  I don't see how you can go wrong.



I just would like to know how big his tribe is...he seems to be still in business....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2013)

Since this thread is starting to look like a middle schooler's facebook page, I will leave the discussion.


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## granfire (Feb 26, 2013)

you are being silly.

You should know by now that the term alone cannot bring forth constructiveness. 

It is mean to be a put down.
And heard plenty often from people who dislike any new kids on the playground.
meaning those who do not feel the need to train til blood flows every day, etc, can only devote an hour per day, can't be hurt too much, because there is a daily life to worry about, and stuff like jobs....

and anybody getting a higher belt while still young enough to enjoy it....

There has to be a happy medium between testing every 2 month so by the time you reach that coveted BB you are so tired and worn out you stop going, and drudging around for a decade. I am sorry, but it does not take that long to train basics.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 27, 2013)

Hapkidoguy said:


> I guess I came from a Mcdojo ish background. It taught two martial arts both of which I now hold blackbelts in.I paid for my rank exams however I had to be able to pass the required techniques for each belt level. We tested every two months. Once again you had to know the techniques to be ready to test. I believe they had a Black Belt Program which I was not in. The original school I was in the owner focused on money but the other instructors  picked up his slack. I made sure I was comfortable before even trying for my next rank. I would guess my trainig wasnt traditional so it would seem to some of you I suck at martial arts because I didnt go to a school that has been around for 200 years. Some people have a lot more money then I where they could travel to a Traditional school. Or lived in a town with one. Some dont have that luxury. I no longer have an instructor because I moved out of state. The closest school of any kind is 45 mins away and im not sure any of those would be traditiional enough for some people on here. i agree people should be able to acyually defend themselves if they practice a martial art. I also think McDojo dont care about the students as much. However some people dont have an option since most truly traditional schools dont have many branches to train in. Just a rant.



If you got something out of the training and you are happy, who cares what the haters think. Personally, I have no problem with Mcdojos. They bring people into the martial arts like crazy and you can always learn more later. I also like to see people go into business for themselves and make it. Believe me, we need more of that in this country.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 27, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> If you got something out of the training and you are happy, who cares what the haters think. Personally, I have no problem with Mcdojos. They bring people into the martial arts like crazy and you can always learn more later. I also like to see people go into business for themselves and make it. Believe me, we need more of that in this country.


I am pro business as well. Sadly there are those in business who sell little more than smoke and mirrors. Lots of the customers are happy as well until the spit hits the fan. Bernie Madoff had lots of happy customers for a long time. Unfortunately in the MA business some people are buying stuff that they think has value but has the potential for getting the hurt.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 27, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> I am pro business as well. Sadly there are those in business who sell little more than smoke and mirrors. Lots of the customers are happy as well until the spit hits the fan. Bernie Madoff had lots of happy customers for a long time. Unfortunately in the MA business some people are buying stuff that they think has value but has the potential for getting the hurt.



That's true, but it's never been easier to know what you are buying than it is now. Maybe in the past Mcdojos could obfuscate and dissemble, but now a little reseach goes a long way. 

Btw - I think when it comes to kids, we want to be teaching them watered down martial arts. When they are older, they can handle more serious material if they wish. Ultimately, Mcdojos serve a niche in the market. I think traditional martial artists can capitalize on this by drawing off the more serious students.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 27, 2013)

Any school in the same market as mine that is more successful than me is a mcdojo.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 27, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> If you got something out of the training and you are happy, who cares what the haters think. Personally, I have no problem with Mcdojos. They bring people into the martial arts like crazy and you can always learn more later. I also like to see people go into business for themselves and make it. Believe me, we need more of that in this country.



Different people want different things out of MA. Like the word "natural" martial arts does not have universal meaning. This is a source of confusion. I think especially beginners have a hard time discerning the limits and merits of a school -- all schools have them. However, part of a MA journey is to learn and explore. I suppose a man could date only one woman and be satisfied. Others, not so much.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 27, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> Any school in the same market as mine that is more successful than me is a mcdojo.




&#51200;&#44592;&#50640;&#45716; &#49373;&#44033;&#54616;&#44592; &#51221;&#47568; &#51116;&#48120;&#51080;&#51424;. &#50976;&#47672; &#44048;&#44033;&#51060; &#51080;&#49845;&#45768;&#45796;.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 28, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> If you got something out of the training and you are happy, who cares what the haters think. Personally, I have no problem with Mcdojos. They bring people into the martial arts like crazy and you can always learn more later.



I disagree with this.  It's great to get more people in to martial arts, but teaching them low quality is not good.  I've had students crossover from ITF styles and most of my time is spent changing them not just to Kukki-Taekwondo style, but correcting basic mistakes that they really should not be making at their grades.

One of my crossover students parents (recent crossover, a month or two) commented that after switching to my club she went back to her old club for a session, just to be sure that she definitely wanted to move rather than just be blinded by the excitement of something new.  Her old instructor was doing pattern practice (hyung?) and asked her to do her pattern for her next belt.  She reminded him that she hadn't been taught it yet and his response was "So, look it up on the internet and learn it".

Honestly, I could feel my blood boil when I heard that!  The internet is a great tool, but it's not a substitute for decent martial arts instruction.

So anyway, I'd rather there were less people (at the moment) learning high quality MA, than churning out crap and either diluting the overall standard or giving more work for decent instructors in the future to make them "unlearn" what they'd learnt previously.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 28, 2013)

Martial arts school with poor standards provide the rest of us with a backdrop against which we are able to shine.

When I go to test with a group of other people, I want it to be clear that my abilities are head and shoulders above theirs at that level.

That's true both inside and outside school, organisation and art.

Sounds a bit own trumpet, but what I mean is keeping a decent standard means this happens naturally as there's so much fluff out there.

Gnarlie


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## Cyriacus (Feb 28, 2013)

granfire said:


>



Does this mean i can become a native warrior for the low low price of $2800?
Nah, im already a Viking. That cost me enough. But a Certified Native American Viking Warrior would be pretty cool...
&#8203;Disclaimer: I did not buy any Viking Courses. But it'd be humorous if i did.


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2013)

but for that price he'd better throw in a jacket like his....


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## Cyriacus (Feb 28, 2013)

granfire said:


> but for that price he'd better throw in a jacket like his....


And a feather!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Does this mean i can become a native warrior for the low low price of $2800?
> Nah, im already a Viking. That cost me enough. But a Certified Native American Viking Warrior would be pretty cool...
> &#8203;Disclaimer: I did not buy any Viking Courses. But it'd be humorous if i did.




The goa should be Certified Native American Viking Warrior Ninja Pirate


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## Cyriacus (Feb 28, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> The goa should be Certified Native American Viking Warrior Ninja Pirate



Rugby should be involved, being a full contact martial art and all, and i consider myself certified.
Given that these things are expensive, one might say that they are elite articles.

So, ELITE CERTIFIED NATIVE AMERICAN VIKING WARRIOR NINJA FULLBACK PIRATE!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Rugby should be involved, being a full contact martial art and all, and i consider myself certified.
> Given that these things are expensive, one might say that they are elite articles.
> 
> So, ELITE CERTIFIED NATIVE AMERICAN VIKING WARRIOR NINJA FULLBACK PIRATE!



I am not certain I am worthy enough to be posting in the same thread with you

:bow:


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 28, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not certain I am worthy enough to be posting in the same thread with you
> 
> Same with me. That is just funny


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## Cyriacus (Feb 28, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not certain I am worthy enough to be posting in the same thread with you
> 
> :bow:



Here goes nothing.

*ELITE CERTIFIED NATIVE AMERICAN **SKELETAL **VAMPIRE WARRIOR NINJA FULLBACK PIRATE THAT ALSO LIKES LEMONADE!*


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## Hapkidoguy (Feb 28, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not certain I am worthy enough to be posting in the same thread with you
> 
> :bow:


This is what I was trying to do.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Here goes nothing.
> 
> *ELITE CERTIFIED NATIVE AMERICAN **SKELETAL **VAMPIRE WARRIOR NINJA FULLBACK PIRATE THAT ALSO LIKES LEMONADE!*


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 28, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I've had students crossover from ITF styles and most of my time is spent changing them not just to Kukki-Taekwondo style, but correcting basic mistakes that they really should not be making at their grades.
> 
> One of my crossover students parents (recent crossover, a month or two) commented that after switching to my club she went back to her old club for a session, just to be sure that she definitely wanted to move rather than just be blinded by the excitement of something new.  Her old instructor was doing pattern practice (hyung?) and asked her to do her pattern for her next belt.  She reminded him that she hadn't been taught it yet and his response was "So, look it up on the internet and learn it".
> 
> Honestly, I could feel my blood boil when I heard that!  The internet is a great tool, but it's not a substitute for decent martial arts instruction..................


Obviously the problem was with the instructor not the style or org. irrespective of your choice to highlight a certain style.


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