# Sitting defense



## artist89 (Apr 4, 2005)

What I was wanting to know is,(I can also ask my instructor too) how would you defend yourself sitting in a chair and someone punched you from your  r or L side? Would you lean back then commence the attack?


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## arnisador (Apr 4, 2005)

There are many ways this could happen, and I could imagine doing as you say but also just bringing my arms up and absorbing the attack, or trying to dodge under the punch with a takedown.

Some jujutsu and aikido styles practice techniques from sitting or from seiza, and BJJ often goes from kneeling.


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## TigerWoman (Apr 4, 2005)

Actually I did defend myself years before even knowing martial arts.  I had pulled open my car door and was sitting-down actually when the car door jerked open.  I kicked my left leg toward him, a young attacker, and hit him in the groin, actually a lucky shot then.  He went backwards, falling and I shut the door and got out of there.  

Our instructor later advised that for a frontal attack and a sidekick to knee for a side attack.  Oh, and block that punch or duck out of the way!  TW


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 4, 2005)

There are some variables you must consider in training against an attack from a seated position.  Is the chair you are in against a wall?  Are you are seated at a table?...on a train?  You won't be able to gain leverage by pushing back on the chair to stand up if there is a wall, or if the chair is immovable like on a train, and you may not be able to go forward if there is a heavy table in front of you.  In a side attack as you describe in a chair in the middle of a room, you could block and grab the arm controlling the punching arm as you stand and counter by using an arm bar to roll your attacker over and either subdue or continue with follow up moves.  You have to be careful in terms of how you allow your opponent to come in on you.  You want to strike so he will fall away from you, and you can use your feet to redirect his body before striking if need be, especially in a frontal attack from a seated position.  You do not want your opponent falling on you and trapping you in the chair.  In my opinion the best way to find out is to grab a chair and some training partners and work it.  It's actually a very fun exercise.


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## Tony (Apr 4, 2005)

A very good post! Something we should all take into consideration because we are all in a very vulnerable position sitting down and just imagine how easy it is for some potential mugger to rob a disabled person.
I remember one silly situation a so called friend of mine tried to stop me from driving off in my car . He tried to hold on to my door so I use one of my keys and violently dug it into the back of his and and he immediately let go. Thank god it was him and not some violent criminal intent in harming me.

A while a go my Kung fu instructor held a self defense seminar but one of the situations we did not cover was being attacked in a seated position.
There are many things you should consider in this kind of situation and our traing should help us come up with possible answers.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 4, 2005)

It would be a good question to put to your instructor. 
 I might do it in private not in the middle of a class.


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## FearlessFreep (Apr 4, 2005)

How much does this fall under 'situational awareness'?  Don't allow yourself to be in a tough to defend situation.  If you feel threatened in anyway, don't sit down, or if already seated, stand up.  ??


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## arnisador (Apr 4, 2005)

I know that Vlad Vasiliev covers some such techniques in Systema, notably for carjacking situations.

*FearlessFreep*, true enough but I don't think it's always that simple.


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## Paul Genge (Apr 4, 2005)

There are very few systems that cover this area of work with any authority.  One of those that does is Systema.  This are has been developed because the system has been taught and used by members of the Russian Special Forces and intelligence community.

If you are looking at work from the seated position first take stock of your surroundings.  If you are simply sitting in a chair with no obstructions it is possible to stand or move to the floor to escape the attack.  

In the case where your movement is restricted by the furniture or because you are in a vehicle you have to be able to work in a manner that has the maximum effect with out expending too much energy.

You have to understand that being seated is not a disadvantage.  The chair or in the case of a vehicle, the body of the car will limit the angles of attack and provide various hard surfaces that the attacker can be encouraged to collide with.  Also in the case of the car the attacker has to either reach in though an open window or open the door to gain entry.  

If the attacker opens the door it will give you some time to react.  If the attack comes through the window opening the door can be very effective at destroying the attackers posture and attack.  Using the pillar of the door or the frame of the window as a pivot point for an arm lock or a pain hold is very effective.  

One problem with these situations if they occur when the engine is running is that the victim gets emotionally involved and forgets that they can simply drive away.

Vladimir Vasiliev has released a video that covers work in a vehicle and another that looks at working from the ground.  Another video that covers related information is his video defence in confined spaces.  These tapes will give you some ideas if you are prepared to think outside of the box of what most people understand about martial arts.

I will try to put some video clips together in the future covering defence while seated and work around vehicles.  I will post a link to it when I get it done.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 4, 2005)

artist89 said:
			
		

> What I was wanting to know is,(I can also ask my instructor too) how would you defend yourself sitting in a chair and someone punched you from your r or L side? Would you lean back then commence the attack?


Get up.  And don't sit with your back or side exposed in a public place.  Ask Wild Bill Hickock.


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## MJS (Apr 4, 2005)

Unless this is something that you don't see coming, I suggest standing up to deal with the attack.  If standing is not an option, I would attempt to turn to face the opp. while still seated.  Keeping your hands up and possibly using your legs to kick are also possibilities.  

Mike


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

We had many. One for example was to purposely fall back (pending the height of the chair) and simultaneously bring the chair up to use as a block or striking weapon (like a big cat/lion tamer)


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 12, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> How much does this fall under 'situational awareness'? Don't allow yourself to be in a tough to defend situation. If you feel threatened in anyway, don't sit down, or if already seated, stand up. ??


In the case of a train, subway or bus ride don't bury your head in a paper or a book and/or fall asleep, make sure you are aware of the people walking by.  Actually the same would go for a restaurant or bar situation where you might be seated at a table, and what about when seated in a dark movie theater?  Be aware of your surroundings notice the people around you and where the exits are.  If I wasn't comfortable with someone near me I'd move my seat.  If you are in a car and are involved in a road rage situation you should be ready to react.  It will help you to consider your options.  Hopefully you won't need options, but if you do, you'll be glad you thought it out.  One of the women I used to study with would think about what she would do when people got too close to her in church! :uhyeah: LOL   A little extreme, but I guess you can never be too careful...


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> One of the women I used to study with would think about what she would do when people got too close to her in church! :uhyeah: LOL A little extreme, but I guess you can never be too careful...


Yeah, those people who get the spirit, shake, and speak in "tongues" can get physical


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## arnisador (Apr 12, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> In the case of a train, subway or bus ride don't bury your head in a paper or a book and/or fall asleep, make sure you are aware of the people walking by.


 True story: There seems to be a rise in NYC subway crime. They're stealing iPods.


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 12, 2005)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> There are very few systems that cover this area of work with any authority.  One of those that does is Systema.  This are has been developed because the system has been taught and used by members of the Russian Special Forces and intelligence community.
> 
> If you are looking at work from the seated position first take stock of your surroundings.  If you are simply sitting in a chair with no obstructions it is possible to stand or move to the floor to escape the attack.
> 
> ...


Vladamir's tapes would be an excellent start.

The eastern martial arts seem to have done a good job of including just about every piece of furniture or tool available as a weapon.  As westerner's we've done a poor job of following suit.  So at contests you'll see people doing forms with Oars, Benches, Sticks, Flails but I've not seen anyone use a common Kitchen Chair as a weapon in a form. With this in mind my overly simple answer to the initial question would be to redirect the attack and use the chair as an obsticle or weapon. This adds further questions. Does the chair have arms? Is the chair Mobile? How large is the room?  Is a desk in front of you? etc, etc, etc.

A good question and a lot of fun to explore.

Jeff


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## Jibbler (Apr 23, 2005)

if possible i would stand up and grab the chair as a weapon. the chair is also a good thown weapon. a friend and i where dicking around in school and fighting with chairs i threw mine at him an accidently threw to hard, i thankfully missed and trashed a messege board standing behind him.

i don't think fighting for fun in school is a good idea by the way! 

 :iws:


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 23, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Vladamir's tapes would be an excellent start.
> 
> So at contests you'll see people doing forms with Oars, Benches, Sticks, Flails but I've not seen anyone use a common Kitchen Chair as a weapon in a form. With this in mind my overly simple answer to the initial question would be to redirect the attack and use the chair as an obsticle or weapon. This adds further questions. Does the chair have arms? Is the chair Mobile? How large is the room? Is a desk in front of you? etc, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


Well, you havent been to a tourney that my students been in. Over 20 years we had used everything from "afro picks", umbrellas, shoes, chairs, coffee cups, jackets, heeled shoes, bakers rolling pin, fishing pole, brooms/mops.....to name a few.


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 23, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> True story: There seems to be a rise in NYC subway crime. They're stealing iPods.


I believe it and one of the things we teach in women's self defense classes is not to jog in the street with headphones on, because you become so absorbed in what you are listening to that you lose your sense of awareness.  I would think in terms of a sitting self defense situation, an ipod is easy pickings.  One way to possibly combat that is to look for some of the newer backpacks and jackets that are now being made with inside pockets to hold the devices so the only thing that is accessible is the headphones, but using an ipod in public will still cut down on your awareness.


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## arnisador (Apr 23, 2005)

Yeah, awareness is more than half the battle, but almost no one teaches it. Teaching the 'technical' aspects of the martial _art_ is more fun than teaching the 'common-sense' aspects of _self-defense_, it appears.


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 23, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yeah, awareness is more than half the battle, but almost no one teaches it. Teaching the 'technical' aspects of the martial _art_ is more fun than teaching the 'common-sense' aspects of _self-defense_, it appears.


That's what is so great about Martial Talk, people who maybe would not even necessarily have considered awareness as part of their curriculum may now begin to include it, and it may not be part of some people's training, because it just hadn't occurred to them.  You pass down what you know from what your instructor taught you.  In the case of sitting and self defense awareness is important, like where is the best place to sit on a subway, train or bus or airplane even.  Is the back or front of a bus best?...window seat or aisle?  Thoughts?


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## artist89 (Apr 24, 2005)

First off I would like to thank all of you for what you have said. That is the greatest thing of the internet, martial artist coming together and asking for opinions of one another of what each thinks would work in a certian situation. Sorry I haven't posted before, I've been busy with school and Tae Kwon Do. I know this is off the subjext but I have one year until my real training begins. For those of you who are a black belt would know what I am speaking of. But like I said before thanks to all of you posted with your opinions.


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## rmcpeek (Apr 25, 2005)

I agree with several of the responses here. 

1. First and foremost, always be aware of your surroundings. 

2. Second, never sit with your back to the door or anywhere where someone can sneak up from behind you or from the side. (I like the "Ask Wild Bill Hickock" response!)

3. If number 2 is not possible, then refer back to #1. 

4. Ask your instructor what he thinks is a correct technique for this situation.

In our system, there are many things that can be done from a seated position, but there's too much to try and list here.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 25, 2005)

Speaking of sitting defense, anyone know of anyone being attack in a bathroom stall?


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## Sin (Apr 28, 2005)

In these kind of situations there is no how to manual.  instead, don't reley on one certain defense predetermined, but just let your training take over.

Fopr instance I was attack once wile sitting, these guys heard I was in MA and they wanted to test me.  Well, They didn't want me kicking them, so in there half witted attack they stood on my feet, thinking it would make me immobile.  Well an array of punches came at the rest of my body, me blocking and countering most of them., I'd say they each got one good one in on me.  All wile I am sitting down in a chair.  I decided that if I where to win I have to stand up, so what I did was that i slouched down in the chair almost on my back, cslip out from under there feet and pushed them both away at the same time with somewhat of a double stomp kick.  Then standing up to finish them off.   

Now if you ask me to do all of that again in the dojo, it probably will not be anywhere near the way it was that day.  The adrenaline was pumping and I felt that my life could be in danger.  So I reacted.

None of this was predetermined on how I would fight sitting down, but its just like grappling....All the tech. you do standing up, you can do just as effectively and the ground, with a few slight modifications.

Regards


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## Andrew Green (Apr 28, 2005)

artist89 said:
			
		

> What I was wanting to know is,(I can also ask my instructor too) how would you defend yourself sitting in a chair and someone punched you from your r or L side? Would you lean back then commence the attack?


 
 Same as everything else, train general purposes, and train to be adaptable and try to be aware of what is going on.

 Trying to cover every possible situation is impossible, as there are a lot of things that go into a stiuation.

 What kind of chair, what else is around, how hard does the guy hit, do you prefer striking or grapplig?  With this guy? What are you wearing? What is he wearing? Anyone else around? Are you carrying anything? How are you feeling?


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## Shogun (Apr 28, 2005)

Koryu Jujutsu systems are good for training in Suwari Waza (seated). The reason is, in old japan when rising in front of one's lord without permission could result in death. I have had the opportunity for training 2 years with Reverend Koichi Barrish. Barrish sensei is the 8th soke of Ideta ryu Bujutsu. We practiced a lot of Suwari Waza, and Suwari w/tanto,bokken, and jo.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

Again, not to be repetitious;

Speaking of sitting defense, anyone know of anyone being attack in a bathroom stall?


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## Andrew Green (Apr 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Again, not to be repetitious;
> 
> Speaking of sitting defense, anyone know of anyone being attack in a bathroom stall?


 Soke Austin Powers was attacked in a bathroom stall, the appropriate defence based on real life experience is the deadly Swirlie, but it is not taught to beginners.


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## Eldritch Knight (Apr 28, 2005)

Who does number 2 work for!?
Who does number 2 work for!?
 %-} 


Back on topic, though, I would say that if you're attacked from a position where your bottom half is virtually immobile, that you should use whatever flexibility and mobility your upper half can afford. I'm a flexible guy myself, so this is second nature, but for the more rigid, I'd recommend working that bob and weave manuever that we all know and love.


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## Paul Genge (Apr 29, 2005)

I've just added a short clip of defence from a chair to my site.  The direct link to the video page is  LINK.

By the end of may I will be adding another relating to working in and around vehicles.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 29, 2005)

Paul thanks for taking the time to put that together and to link it here.  That was very interesting!  Is that you in the chair?  I like the one where you went on all fours and had him roll over you. I would not have thought to do that.  The gun ones were interesting too!  I also liked how you used the chair as leverage in one of the scenarios.   Great stuff, and I look forward to viewing your other videos when I have more time!

MJ :asian:


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 29, 2005)

Eldritch Knight said:
			
		

> Who does number 2 work for!?
> Who does number 2 work for!?


LOL

However, I guess a bathroom stall would be the least likely place to perform a sitting defense.

But, I had seen one start in there. It was at a wedding recepyion.

Wasn't a "pretty sight".

There were people being hesitant to break that one up.


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## Paul Genge (Apr 30, 2005)

MJ,

Yes that is me in the video.  I am hoping to do some video on working in and around vehicles in the next month.  I will post it when it is done.

Paul Genge


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## Shogun (Apr 30, 2005)

Good stuff. I liked it very much. I actually always liked systema. 

BTW, Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu (taught within the bujinkan) is a very good seated martial art, as almost all the techniques are done from sitting. (you can do them from standing, but they wre developed on the ground)


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## Paul Genge (May 1, 2005)

I have some experience of the Bujinkan.  Takagi Yoshin Ryu does have a lot of interesting work, but unless you try using it sat in a chair you will never get comfortable using it in anything other than seiza.  The biggest difference in Systema and the Bujinkan is the methods of training, the use of Kamae in most of the 9 schools and the focus on breathing in Systema.  The principles that work are universal to alot of arts.  It is really down to how you train them that really make the difference.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## Shogun (May 2, 2005)

Thats true. Bujinkan training however is all over the place. some do train with a chair. some dont. its not really possible to have one method of training in the bujinkan as you know. I dont think the use of Kamae is stressed as much as it used to be. San shin movement seems to be more the focus. . I have heard that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and Systema have a few similarities, though. of course, there is always more similairites than differences. once again, great clip.


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## artist89 (May 6, 2005)

Arigato Gozimasu which means thank you in Japanese. But thanks for the clips they were great.


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## Paul Genge (May 26, 2005)

As promised here is a clip that includes defence in a car and whilst sitting using furniture.  

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## 47MartialMan (May 26, 2005)

Thanks for the clip...


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## DeLamar.J (May 28, 2005)

artist89 said:
			
		

> What I was wanting to know is,(I can also ask my instructor too) how would you defend yourself sitting in a chair and someone punched you from your  r or L side? Would you lean back then commence the attack?


http://inat.org/JKD/movies/Defence From a Sitting Position.mpeg


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