# Black Belt Clubs



## Q-Man (May 29, 2007)

Do you offer a "black belt club" for your kids classes?  If so, how is that class different from the regular classes your student could take?  What are the benefits for the student?  What are the benefits for the teacher/school owner?  At what stage do you admit your students into the BBC class if they chose to take it?  Thanks for your help.


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## kosho (May 29, 2007)

I do not offer this. All students should be on a path to Black belt. I also do not give out Black Belts to kids. I have students that have started with me at age 4 and 5. now at age 10 smart and good students. But the kid and parent knows no Black belt test until 16 - 18 years of age. so thats 11 - 13 years or training. Not all paraents will stay here and will go to other schools maybe. only (1) has in the past 3 years.  If I was a chain school and looking to make more $$ a black belt club would be a good idear. But for me and how I run my Dojo it make no sence..Good for others not me. not sure if this helped you.  just me 2 cents. 
and one of my students I talked about is one of my own kids. she is 10 and has been with me for 5 years. she has a ton of info and a strong student. and she understandes why she will need to be older to truly understand what it means to be a black belt  and not a paper one...
Kosho


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## Q-Man (May 29, 2007)

Hey Kosho,

your policy sounds good to me but from what i've read/heard about these types of programs it didn't seem that if you offered one that you automatically were promoting kids to black belt.  Maybe I missed that or maybe it just depends on the school.  At any rate thanks for your comments!

Does anyone else here offer a BBC at their school who could/would answer my questions?

Thanks again guys & gals!


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## IcemanSK (May 30, 2007)

Black Belt Clubs are so 1990's. I have a "Masters Club" at my school. "Shoot for the moon & collect the money" is my motto.

uh, oh you were serious. No, I don't have one.:uhoh:


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 30, 2007)

I think black belt clubs are not good at all.  In my Training Hall every student that comes in will receive the finest training that I can provide them equally with all of the other practitioner's.  Just my 02.


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## Lynne (May 31, 2007)

At my Tang Soo Do school, we have a Black Belt Club.

The instructors will usually note if someone is very motivated and then ask them if they would like to join BBC.  For kids, they usually have to be at least an orange belt.

For adults, it can be as early as white belt. My daughter joined when she was white belt.  I was approached about it but am not going to join because the mental overload would be too much. I've only been attending three weeks and I am motivated, I know where I want to go, but I couldn't handle the mental aspects of BBC.

There are pros!  My daughter can attend classes as often as she likes, not just twice a week (original contracts are attendance once a week or twice a week).  So, she goes three times a week which is fantastic. BBC really pushes the student mentally and physically. I think it's great.  My daughter has learned Chil-Sun Iriyan (sp?) and could perform it at a competition if she liked.  She's currently working on another black belt form.  She gets to attend a board breaking clinic coming up in June, another perk.  She's learning to do shoulder rolls, cartwheels, one-hand stands, and so on - I'm not sure how they apply later on.

Pros for the payee is that the tuition is locked in for the next 3 - 3-1/2 years.  It actually costs less to be BBC.

For the motivated student, I think it's wonderful, if they can handle the mental aspects.  A downside might be that during black belt club week, the student isn't working on much of the material for their current level.  Then again, if they are attending two or more times a week and are motivated, they should have no problem learning their material, right?  Another downside is that Master might ask BBC members to perform the black belt forms during a test or spotlight.  One could fail if they're in BBC and can't perform the higher level forms.  Therefore, someone testing for their yellow or orange belt (beginners!) could be asked to do Chil-Sun Iryan.  I don't know if that's really a downside  .  I suppose it depends on how comfortable one is with the forms.

I believe the more forms one learns, the more flexible they will become and the more balance they will gain.  I'm sure there are other pluses I haven't even thought of.  Wouldn't students be better at sparring as well?  I have heard it said that those who are best at sparring are excellent at forms.

Personally, I know I'm not ready.  I haven't even learned to square my shoulders correctly during Gi Cho Hyung Il Bu/E Bu, my front stance is more like a high-wire act most of the time, and I forget to bring my fist back to my ribs after punching.  So, can you imagine me trying to learn the Chinese 6?-star form???? No way.

I admit the board breaking clinic in June is a tempation.  But there will be other board breaking clinics when I'm mentally ready.


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## Shaderon (May 31, 2007)

I am not completely sure of our Kids classes, but I think they are run in a similar way to our adults classes.   We have BBCs that we call Jee-Goo.  Jee-Goo classes run once a week as an addition to the colour belt training and also they have once a month seminar type classes on top of that.  They are really to take away everyone under red belt (2nd Kup) and give the BBs time to work on thier own techniques and patterns, if they only attended regular classes they would only help lower belts and go over their usual techs, it's nice for them to be able to go over stuff that only they are being taught and work on it more in order to learn more.

Plus it means they can let loose a bit more with sparring etc.


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## Blindside (May 31, 2007)

We don't offer them.  Everyone gets the same training at the same price.  If you really need more than we offer with our standard training (and quite frankly most people don't) then you can do that through private lessons.

Lamont


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## Lynne (May 31, 2007)

I forgot to answer that question...kid's classes are run the same way as the adult classes during BBC week.

If you decide to have a BBC, be prepared for the pushy parent who runs to enroll 5 year-old Jenny.  As instructors or owners, I'm sure you're aware of that scenario ad nauseum.  Truly, parents pushed to enroll their 5 or 6 year-old daughter in BBC at our school.  They pushed hard so our school said yes.

Sometimes, parents are idiots.  The parents should be made to take some trial classes.


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## tellner (May 31, 2007)

Sounds like a great way to get extra money and rope the kids or grownups into multi-year contracts.


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## Kacey (May 31, 2007)

I teach at a Y, so my time/space is limited, and they set the prices, not me.  Anyone who is motivated enough to want extra help has only to ask me, and I'll find a time and place to meet and provide extra instruction.  The difference is, in large part, that a) there was no such thing available to me when I was a color belt, and b) everyone in the class is in the black belt club - because that's what color belt training leads to.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2007)

tellner said:


> Sounds like a great way to get extra money and rope the kids or grownups into multi-year contracts.


Tis true!  But at our school, they look for focused individuals.  More often than not, instructors approach the student.  Some students do ask to join Black Belt Club. And of course there are the pushy parents who insist their child be in BBC.

Yes, there is definitely a contract.  After my daughter's first year of instructions (because registration has already been paid in full for the first year), we agreed to pay her next three years of registration in X amount of time - over 18 months if I recall correctly.  Her tuition is locked in at the same rate for that time.

We knew she'd want to pursue her black belt so we went for it.  My daughter likes the mental and physical stimulation of BBC.


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## Kacey (Jun 1, 2007)

And what happens if she changes her mind?  I'm not saying she will - but I know kids that has happened to, especially one particular chain that shall remain nameless, who were starry-eyed and enthusiastic at white and yellow belt - but by blue or red (sometimes green) were moving onto other things, and their parents were stuck in a contract that said, effectively "I agree to pay $X/month for X months and if I (or my child) show up X times I (or my child) will attain X rank".  There was no cancellation clause.  For one kid I knew, who dropped out at high yellow belt, 1 year into a 3 year contract, his parents were still paying it off a year later, because the pay-off was cheaper than the lawsuit that would have been needed to get him out of the contract - which is, no doubt, part of what the chain counts on.  Still, it was a financial hardship for his parents, and they kept trying to convince him to go back until the contract was up, just so they could get something for their money.  So BB clubs can be good _if run properly_, but they can also be real scams, and anything in between.

For myself, in the environment I teach in and given the size of my class, I see no reason to have such a club.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2007)

Kacey said:


> And what happens if she changes her mind? I'm not saying she will - but I know kids that has happened to, especially one particular chain that shall remain nameless, who were starry-eyed and enthusiastic at white and yellow belt - but by blue or red (sometimes green) were moving onto other things, and their parents were stuck in a contract that said, effectively "I agree to pay $X/month for X months and if I (or my child) show up X times I (or my child) will attain X rank". There was no cancellation clause. For one kid I knew, who dropped out at high yellow belt, 1 year into a 3 year contract, his parents were still paying it off a year later, because the pay-off was cheaper than the lawsuit that would have been needed to get him out of the contract - which is, no doubt, part of what the chain counts on. Still, it was a financial hardship for his parents, and they kept trying to convince him to go back until the contract was up, just so they could get something for their money. So BB clubs can be good _if run properly_, but they can also be real scams, and anything in between.
> 
> For myself, in the environment I teach in and given the size of my class, I see no reason to have such a club.


Yes, I agree.  Truly, there is no way to know whether someone will change their mind.  Right now, my daughter is very committed, but I can't predict the future.

Of course, what drew us in was the perks (especially the opportunity to train more than twice a week).  And when you're thinking about the perks, the positives, you kind of put that possibility of quitting on the back burner.  The perks are great right now, but if my daughter were to quit, it would be bad news. 

I do think it's a bad idea to enroll young kids in BBC.  They may find they hate MA or are more interested in other pursuits.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2007)

What the heck is a Black Belt club? 

I'm a CMA guy and we don't even give out belts.

But let me see if I have this. 

A kid pays extra to join a black belt club and gets extra or different training and an accelerated path to black belt because he has done this while the other hard working students, that are also paying, but not as much as those in the Black Belt Club, get squat, is that it?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> What the heck is a Black Belt club?
> 
> I'm a CMA guy and we don't even give out belts.
> 
> ...


 
that's my take on it.

I personally don't see a reason for these things.  I think they are a gimmick designed to get people in the door and paying more money.  I am skeptical that the training is significantly better or more thorough.  If the non-BBC people are getting inferior or less thorough training, but are still paying regular tuition, that is a crime.  A teacher should teach, period.  If he is being paid what he has asked for, then he should teach honestly and fully, to the capability of each student.  Special clubs with special tuition for the "real teachings" don't make sense to me.

Another problem with these things is the implication that anyone who joins the club is somehow guaranteed a black belt at some point in time.  I personally believe that not every schmoe who walks in the door will eventually merit the rank, regardless of how hard and long they train.  For many people, for many reasons, they simply will not live up to the standard.  There is no shame in that.  They can still train and get a lot of value from it.  But a club like this implies that it is guaranteed at some point, and I have a real problem with it.


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## Shuto (Jun 1, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> What the heck is a Black Belt club?
> 
> I'm a CMA guy and we don't even give out belts.
> 
> ...


 
That's not how ours works.  After ~ 6 months students are generally invited to join the club.  This commits the student to following through and getting their black belt which normally takes around 4 to 5 years.  The training rate is locked at the current price and there are special classes ~ every two months which are free.  The last class I took was about the legal issues surrounding self-defence which was given by a lawyer spouse of one of the instructors.

edit - there is no special in-class training and there is no accelerated path for black-belt club members in our dojo.

edit II - Oh... I almost forgot to mention that we get to wear cool-looking black pants as well.  I suspect that's the main reason why people join.  At least I know it was true in my case.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> that's my take on it.
> 
> I personally don't see a reason for these things. I think they are a gimmick designed to get people in the door and paying more money. I am skeptical that the training is significantly better or more thorough. If the non-BBC people are getting inferior or less thorough training, but are still paying regular tuition, that is a crime. A teacher should teach, period. If he is being paid what he has asked for, then he should teach honestly and fully, to the capability of each student. Special clubs with special tuition for the "real teachings" don't make sense to me.
> 
> Another problem with these things is the implication that anyone who joins the club is somehow guaranteed a black belt at some point in time. I personally believe that not every schmoe who walks in the door will eventually merit the rank, regardless of how hard and long they train. For many people, for many reasons, they simply will not live up to the standard. There is no shame in that. They can still train and get a lot of value from it. But a club like this implies that it is guaranteed at some point, and I have a real problem with it.


 
I too then have a REAL problem with all of this



Shuto said:


> That's not how ours works. After ~ 6 months students are generally invited to join the club. This commits the student to following through and getting their black belt which normally takes around 4 to 5 years. The training rate is locked at the current price and there are special classes ~ every two months which are free. The last class I took was about the legal issues surrounding self-defence which was given by a lawyer spouse of one of the instructors.
> 
> edit - there is no special in-class training and there is no accelerated path for black-belt club members in our dojo.
> 
> edit II - Oh... I almost forgot to mention that we get to wear cool-looking black pants as well. I suspect that's the main reason why people join. At least I know it was true in my case.


 
Cool black pants aside

How much extra does it cost over regular monthly fees and can the students that are not in the Black Belt Club get there black belt by training the same amount of time?

Is the training rate locked in for the duration of those 4 to 5 years?

Also once you commit to this is there a way out assuming you have a legitimate reason, where you no longer pay for anything or is the payment up front?


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## Shuto (Jun 1, 2007)

Cool black pants aside

How much extra does it cost over regular monthly fees and can the students that are not in the Black Belt Club get there black belt by training the same amount of time?

It does not cost extra.  It costs the same until the rates go up, then it costs less if you are in the club.  The rates went up this last January but it did not impact me.  

Yes, the non club members can earn their black belts in the same amount of time and they attend the same classes.  They may, however, lack the motivation of the club members due to their white pants and thus may fall behind.

Is the training rate locked in for the duration of those 4 to 5 years?

The rate is locked in until you get your black belt.

Also once you commit to this is there a way out assuming you have a legitimate reason, where you no longer pay for anything or is the payment up front?

You can get out if you move (I think it is over 12 miles from the dojo) or for health reasons which requires a doctors note.  The payment is monthly.  

edit - The way I see it is that I get a locked in tuition rate and the school gets a regular revenue stream.  Sounds like a win/win to me.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2007)

Shuto said:


> Cool black pants aside
> 
> How much extra does it cost over regular monthly fees and can the students that are not in the Black Belt Club get there black belt by training the same amount of time?
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, that doesn't sound so bad... and you get cool black pants too.


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## Shuto (Jun 1, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Another problem with these things is the implication that anyone who joins the club is somehow guaranteed a black belt at some point in time.  I personally believe that not every schmoe who walks in the door will eventually merit the rank, regardless of how hard and long they train.  For many people, for many reasons, they simply will not live up to the standard.  There is no shame in that.  They can still train and get a lot of value from it.  But a club like this implies that it is guaranteed at some point, and I have a real problem with it.



You would have a problem with our school then.  You are pretty much guaranteed a belt if you put in the time.  I agree that there is no shame in not attaining that rank but some people are motivated by the belt and they seem to benefit from the training, both physically and spiritually, at least according to my observations.   

I have given some thought to this promotion process and I am at peace with it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2007)

Shuto said:


> You are pretty much guaranteed a belt if you put in the time.


 
ooo I missed that, ok I do have a bit of a problem with this, but if you are happy with it, who cares what I think.


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## Shuto (Jun 1, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> ooo I missed that, ok I do have a bit of a problem with this, but if you are happy with it, who cares what I think.



Yep, I understand.  The way I view it is that people are benefiting from this training and are finding motivation in the belt color.  It does belittle the belt, but not as much as I originally thought since slackers will find ways to fall out of the program.  Maybe the belt is lessened, but a lot of people benefit as well which counter-balances the downside IMO.  

Ultimately I view my training and level of attainment as my responsibility and I have found my instructors very supportive and responsive to my efforts and questions.  I really don't need a belt system to motivate me.  I am motivated by training with my peers and instructors.   They are good people.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> ooo I missed that, ok I do have a bit of a problem with this, but if you are happy with it, who cares what I think.


 

I'll have to second this position.  I don't agree with it, but if you are happy with the training and the arrangement then my opinion doesn't impact you.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2007)

Shuto said:


> I really don't need a belt system to motivate me. I am motivated by training with my peers and instructors.


 
Bingo.  This is really as it should be, and I think is a healthy attitude.  Personally, I often wish we could dump the whole belt system altogether, but in many cases we are kind of stuck with it.  Oh well.


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## Shuto (Jun 1, 2007)

I'll add that I no longer consider the color belt as a mark of achievement which is what I think it originally designated.  I see it more as a mark of dedication, commitment, and perhaps perseverance which equates somewhat to achievement.  I certainly consider the belt color when I am practicing a take down because the more advanced belt colors have had a lot more experience with how to fall safely.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 5, 2007)

I'm really amazed at the idea of a BB Clubfrom the student's point of view. I was in love at 1st sight with my art at 14 years old when I began training. But still, a million things could happen between now & BB that could have taken me away from it. How many folks leave MA after 1st test or 2?! I could just see parents saying to Jr., "We paid for you to be in the BB Club. I don't care if you don't like it anymore. You're gonna stay in until you finish."

Ugh.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> What the heck is a Black Belt club?
> 
> I'm a CMA guy and we don't even give out belts.
> 
> ...


 
You scholar, you. :ultracool


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## Grenadier (Jun 7, 2007)

The way I see it, as long as the Yudansha rank is *not* guaranteed after a certain period of time, then such clubs aren't a problem.  

Typically, the "black belt club" classification is nothing more than the next tier up, in terms of offering more and / or accelerated training, for those who want it.  Most of the time, it will cost a bit more, but the way I see it, if the student gets that much more training and / or benefits, then it's worth it.


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## Min (Jun 24, 2007)

At my school for everyone that walks in the front door we have one goal for them, Black Belt.

At my school, I offer a regular program 2 classes a week for a length going from 1 month to 6 months to one year, and then before you can get into the advanced classes you have to join the Black Belt Training Program, which provides weapon training of Long Staff (Beg), Nunchaku (Int), Kali (Adv), Sai(Adv), or Kama(Adv), depending on the semester and your rank.  The Black Belt Training Program can be earned at any rank.  From there you have a potential of joining the G.O.L.D (Guidence On Leadership Development) Team,   this offers unlimited classes per week as well as you can assist based on your age and rank and you get a special class once every two weeks to develope your leadership skills.  Finally we have the Masters Program which you can learn several different arts including Kung Fu, Wushu, Hapkido, and Karate, as well as  your original TKD classes.  You also have the potential of learning 18 weapons, or honing in on your favourite weapon or both.


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