# Workouts to improve upper body strength?



## stingrae (Jun 18, 2017)

Part of my problems escaping pins comes from little to no upper body strength. Any workouts you guys can recommend to help me out?

I can't go to a gym so I won't be using machines and I don't have a pullup bar. I may be able to scrape up some cash to get some of those colorful hand weights you can buy at a sports store.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 19, 2017)

Pressups are 1 of the best upper body exercises you can do, and requires no equipment at all. Look online for all the different variations you can try. 

That said, are you sure it's not an issue with your technique rather than pure strength? Maybe tell us exactly what you are struggling with and we can give you some tips that don't require you to get physically stronger.


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## stingrae (Jun 19, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Pressups are 1 of the best upper body exercises you can do, and requires no equipment at all. Look online for all the different variations you can try.
> 
> That said, are you sure it's not an issue with your technique rather than pure strength? Maybe tell us exactly what you are struggling with and we can give you some tips that don't require you to get physically stronger.



Mostly it's when I'm pinned, I cannot get the person off me unless they are extremely off center or I can use my legs to move them (wrap around their legs and pull as I pull with my arms. That's where I'm pretty sure it's a problem with my strength, I can escape, but only with aid from my legs.)

I also have a lot of difficulty throwing someone. As with escaping pins, I can only succeed if the other person is very much off center.


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## kuniggety (Jun 19, 2017)

How are their and your bodies oriented when you're pinned? In pretty much every scenario, you should be using your hips and not upper body strength to move them/yourself. If they have you mounted, look up the "trap and roll" escape and then "shrimp" escape. If they have you pinned from the side, then you need to do a pretty violent bridge of your hips up, scoot your butt away from them, and then slide your knee between you and then. If they have you pinned from the top, i.e. North-south, well, this one sucks. They best thing you can do is stiff arm them with both arms before they get the pin. The idea here though is you're still trying to buck them up to either get the stiff arms or, if you're flexible enough, kick your legs up over you and catch them to push off of. If they have you pinned with you balled up and face down, i.e. you're in the turtle position, then you should try something called a granby roll which is again a hip based movement. As I started with, that's all the basic pinning positions with the basic escapes and none of them require upper body strength.

BTW, I highly recommend a pull up bar. They're cheap and attach to a door way. If you're stuck on building upper body strength with body weight: hand stand push ups, elevated push ups, chair push ups, plyo push-ups, diamond push ups, and dips all require nothing more than a couple of chairs or a counter.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 19, 2017)

Try doing pushups using chairs. You use three chairs, one for each hand and one for your feet and the idea is to go lower than your hands. With the chairs you can go lower than if you were just doing pushups on the ground. And them come up as far as you can. A very good exercise for upper body strength.


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2017)

as above, it depends on how strong you want to be, or how you define strengh, you can get extremely strong doing compound body weight exercises, just doing variations on pull ups  press ups and dips, will do the job.

but then its what you actual want out of it. All out maximal strengh for a short period or more endurance,strengh ie stronger for longer, then design your program around those goal. You can also change it to hit particular muscles specifically, as above in doing deep push ups to hit the pecs or close hand push ups to hit the triceps'

though equipment based, a kettle bell is extremely usefull and a set of gymnastic rings are incredible at making you strong as a gorilla, I had,a go on a,set yesterday, I can do twenty dips on a set of bars, couldn't do five on a,set of rings as my stabilising muscles weren't up to it


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 19, 2017)

stingrae said:


> Part of my problems escaping pins comes from little to no upper body strength. Any workouts you guys can recommend to help me out?
> 
> I can't go to a gym so I won't be using machines and I don't have a pullup bar. I may be able to scrape up some cash to get some of those colorful hand weights you can buy at a sports store.




Hold for 4 to 8 breaths


Downward Dog.  (Adho Mukha Svanasana)

Cobra Pose (Bhujangasana)

Upward Facing Dog (Urdhva Mukha Svanasana)

Dolphin Pose (Makarasana)
Forearm Plank

Four-Limbed Staff Pose  or Four-Point Staff Pose (Chaturanga.)

Plank.

Side Plank. (Vashistansana)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hold for 4 to 8 breaths
> 
> 
> Downward Dog.  (Adho Mukha Svanasana)
> ...


I've been practicing Yoga for a couple of years, and never knew what the heck Chaturanga specifically was - it was just a verbal cue for our transitions (I practice Vinyasa flow, so we don't hold Chaturanga). The English name for it helps. Thanks for the accidental enlightenment!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 19, 2017)

Definitely listen to what others are saying on this. Core strength (hip, back, abdominal, etc.) is much more key to BJJ than arms/shoulders (though strength there can be helpful, too). Look into bridging exercises using an exercise ball or BOSU, press-ups/push-ups, planks, etc. For overall development with little cost, a light kettlebell can be used for a wide range of exercises, and the uneven weight (and the way it's used) tends to recruit more core than most dumbbell-type exercises.


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hold for 4 to 8 breaths
> 
> 
> Downward Dog.  (Adho Mukha Svanasana)
> ...


yes yoga can give great strengh, particularly in the core, the issue is that when it comes to arm or leg strengh, the exercise's are basically isometrics' in nature , so they don't give strengh through the full range of motion and where there is motion they tend to hit the slow twitch endurance fibres rather than the fast twitch strengh fibers


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## DanT (Jun 19, 2017)

stingrae said:


> Part of my problems escaping pins comes from little to no upper body strength. Any workouts you guys can recommend to help me out?
> 
> I can't go to a gym so I won't be using machines and I don't have a pullup bar. I may be able to scrape up some cash to get some of those colorful hand weights you can buy at a sports store.


If your upper body is weak, chances are your lower body is too. Here's a general calisthenics routine:

5 sets of squats to failure
5 sets of pushups to failure
5 sets of sit-ups to failure
5 sets of dips to failure
5 sets of pull-ups to failure 
5 sets of lunges to failure
5 sets of handstand push-ups to failure

Should take about 45 minutes to complete. If it takes more than 1 hour it means you are going way too slow.

You can do this 3-6 days a week. 

Each week try to do 5 more reps for each set than the week before.

You can do pull-ups at the park.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jun 19, 2017)

Do some plnaks sit up push ups burpies etc


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## JR 137 (Jun 19, 2017)

As everyone has been saying... core strength.  As a wrestling guy, I have to say if you're muscling throws and reversals, there's a good chance you need to work on technique as well.  Actually, technique will be more important than strength under normal circumstances.  But adding strength will definitely help in a serious way.

If you're going to do any strengthening, do this...


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## Buka (Jun 19, 2017)

Stingrae, you're young and fairly new to the Arts, keep at it, kiddo. Read JR 137's post again, I think it says it all. That exercise shown in his post is excellent to develop strength. And you don't have to worry about scraping together money for a hand weight, use a rock. They're everywhere and come in varying sizes.


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2017)

Buka said:


> Stingrae, you're young and fairly new to the Arts, keep at it, kiddo. Read JR 137's post again, I think it says it all. That exercise shown in his post is excellent to develop strength. And you don't have to worry about scraping together money for a hand weight, use a rock. They're everywhere and come in varying sizes.


the heavy ones are a bit lacking on the handle front


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 19, 2017)

jobo said:


> the heavy ones are a bit lacking on the handle front


Well, that just adds a sense of consequences to bad form.


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Well, that just adds a sense of consequences to bad form.


gym equipment is alarmingly cheap or even free second hand,
I've had any number of people try to give me their home gym weights as they never use it and the wife is fed up of dusting it

a look in the classified ill get you anything you want for a fraction of its as new price, a kettle bell should only be a handful of$or £ not worth carry a big rock home for that


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## Danny T (Jun 19, 2017)

stingrae said:


> Part of my problems escaping pins comes from little to no upper body strength. Any workouts you guys can recommend to help me out?
> 
> I can't go to a gym so I won't be using machines and I don't have a pullup bar. I may be able to scrape up some cash to get some of those colorful hand weights you can buy at a sports store.


Uph (Hip Bridge and Roll)
Hip Escape (Shrimping)
Both use the legs and core to move the hips. Arms are for framing and maintaining the opponent's position while moving the hips. So strength is required but it is more the legs and core than the arms.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 19, 2017)

jobo said:


> gym equipment is alarmingly cheap or even free second hand,
> I've had any number of people try to give me their home gym weights as they never use it and the wife is fed up of dusting it
> 
> a look in the classified ill get you anything you want for a fraction of its as new price, a kettle bell should only be a handful of$or £


Yeah, but where's the sense of danger and adventure, then??

Seriously, you are correct - a single kettlebell isn't hard to come by on the cheap. It doesn't take a really heavy one, either.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 19, 2017)

Put your feet on your bed, place you hands on the floor, do elevated push ups. You won't build mass or size this way but you will tone and strengthen. This is also good for maintenance of muscle mass. 

Make sure you are eating right too.


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## stingrae (Jun 19, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Uph (Hip Bridge and Roll)
> Hip Escape (Shrimping)
> Both use the legs and core to move the hips. Arms are for framing and maintaining the opponent's position while moving the hips. So strength is required but it is more the legs and core than the arms.



Bridge and roll, that's my issue. I can't do it unless I wrap my legs around the other person's and pull. I've been out of the dojo too long, I couldn't think of the escape.


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## stingrae (Jun 19, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Put your feet on your bed, place you hands on the floor, do elevated push ups. You won't build mass or size this way but you will tone and strengthen. This is also good for maintenance of muscle mass.
> 
> Make sure you are eating right too.



That's a good start to regular pushups isn't it? I can't do one regular pushup.Someone told me to start on my knees or elevated and progress from there.


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## stingrae (Jun 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> If your upper body is weak, chances are your lower body is too. Here's a general calisthenics routine:
> 
> 5 sets of squats to failure
> 5 sets of pushups to failure
> ...



Handstand? What am I, a gymnist?


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2017)

stingrae said:


> That's a good start to regular pushups isn't it? I can't do one regular pushup.Someone told me to start on my knees or elevated and progress from there.


start well elivated, on counter or something like that and do as many as you can aim for say 50 plus when you can do that with ease, drop the height and build up again and then again and again till you find yourself on the floor doing 20
push ups should have your hands at chest level, with you elbows pointing backwards, not as some insist on doing them, at shoulder level with you elbows pointing outwards'.
they are easier the correct way as they get
you pecs more involved


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 19, 2017)

jobo said:


> start well elivated, on counter or something like that and do as many as you can aim for say 50 plus when you can do that with ease, drop the height and build up again and then again and again till you find yourself on the floor doing 20


I've never really thought about this as a natural progression before.

Or, wait...I think you're talking about the other incline (as was the person the OP referred to). IB referred to having the feet elevated. I presume you're talking about the head being elevated. I was typing a longer question for you, then realized I was following from IB's post, and might not be the same thing as you're talking about.


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've never really thought about this as a natural progression before.
> 
> Or, wait...I think you're talking about the other incline (as was the person the OP referred to). IB referred to having the feet elevated. I presume you're talking about the head being elevated. I was typing a longer question for you, then realized I was following from IB's post, and might not be the same thing as you're talking about.


yea, that's how I did it, build up the endurance aspect and then increase the weight. As a rule of thumb, you are lifting about 65% of your body weight with a standard push up. There are charts available to show what % you are lifting at various elevation's, if anyone is Interested enough to google it


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## drop bear (Jun 19, 2017)

You should be able to get a plate pretty cheaply. And can do a lot with one.


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## gerardbu07059 (Jun 19, 2017)

You can also try :
1 push ups. Do sets until you can get to 100 push up straight. As you get stronger you can use 3 chairs. One for hands one for legs
2 dips: for triceps you can use 3 chairs one for the legs and the other 2 together so you can put your hands palms facing away from you.
3: planks. Core.  Work up until you can do 2 minutes
4: sit ups or crunches. As you advance do crunch twisted putting opposite elbow to the knees.  Do 2 slowly  and 3 quick until you can do 3 sets of ten counting 
5: pull ups as someone suggested work up until you can do 30. Start doing them in sets with. Count them as different exercises 1 is with hands away from you and one with hands facing you.
6: horse stand work up until you can do 2 minutes.
7: chair: put your back against the wall and imagine sitting on a chair but no chair (good for quads). Until you can do 5 minutes.
8: lounges: do not let your knees pass your toes.  You should do 50 on each leg
Plus the other good suggestions from members here. This just gives you a routine that you can follow. 


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## gerardbu07059 (Jun 19, 2017)

.

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## DanT (Jun 19, 2017)

stingrae said:


> Handstand? What am I, a gymnist?


You can do it with your feet on the ground. Do a push-up while in a downward dog position.


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## drop bear (Jun 19, 2017)

stingrae said:


> Handstand? What am I, a gymnist?



No. But with work you could be.


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2017)

gerardbu07059 said:


> You can also try :
> 1 push ups. Do sets until you can get to 100 push up straight. As you get stronger you can use 3 chairs. One for hands one for legs
> 2 dips: for triceps you can use 3 chairs one for the legs and the other 2 together so you can put your hands palms facing away from you.
> 3: planks. Core.  Work up until you can do 2 minutes
> ...


there are no strengh gains from doing a hundred push ups, its long since stopped being a,strengh exercises and become an endurance one

. There is nothing wrong with that but the op wants to be strong. And that's found by working in the range between 80 and 90%of one rep max. Or some where between 5 and 15 rep per set to failure. If you have got to the point where you can wiz up to 20 reps its to easy and you need to modify the exercise to make it mote difficult. You can do that by changing tempo, I find fast up to activate the type one fibres and slow down is good.

I've recently stated doing archer push ups, ie moving one of your arms out to the side. I move it just to the point where I can do just five reps with each arm. That put me back at about 90% of one rep max and should give max strength gains


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 19, 2017)

jobo said:


> there are no strengh gains from doing a hundred push ups, its long since stopped being a,strengh exercises and become an endurance one
> 
> . There is nothing wrong with that but the op wants to be strong. And that's found by working in the range between 80 and 90%of one rep max. Or some where between 5 and 15 rep per set to failure. If you have got to the point where you can wiz up to 20 reps its to easy and you need to modify the exercise to make it mote difficult. You can do that by changing tempo, I find fast up to activate the type one fibres and slow down is good.
> 
> I've recently stated doing archer push ups, ie moving one of your arms out to the side. I move it just to the point where I can do just five reps with each arm. That put me back at about 90% of one rep max and should give max strength gains



*gasps* you mean 1-punch man was lieing to me all this time!? I thought all I had to do to gain super human strength (and lose all my hair) was to do 100 pushups 100 situps 100 squats and a 10k run every day. Now all my dreams are ruined


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## kuniggety (Jun 20, 2017)

stingrae said:


> Handstand? What am I, a gymnist?



It's easier to do a hand stand and then balance against a wall. I can't for the life of me do a real handstand.



jobo said:


> I've recently stated doing archer push ups, ie moving one of your arms out to the side. I move it just to the point where I can do just five reps with each arm. That put me back at about 90% of one rep max and should give max strength gains



Is there any advantage of the archer pushups over just doing one arm pushups?



Midnight-shadow said:


> *gasps* you mean 1-punch man was lieing to me all this time!? I thought all I had to do to gain super human strength (and lose all my hair) was to do 100 pushups 100 situps 100 squats and a 10k run every day. Now all my dreams are ruined



Well, that sounds like a pretty good warm up to me.


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 20, 2017)

stingrae said:


> That's a good start to regular pushups isn't it? I can't do one regular pushup.Someone told me to start on my knees or elevated and progress from there.



No elevated makes it more difficult. The more the elevate the more you will also work the shoulders as well. There is also a technique called light weight slow reps. I have a link here if you would like to read it.

Since you don't know your 1 rep max don't worry about the calculation, just take a dumbell that you have a hard time lifting once, then go to a lighter one you can lift many times. Then do 9 reps of those dumbells very slowly, like taichi forms practice slow. Slow push ups are also good.

Blast Off To A New Level Of Mass With Light Training!


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## KangTsai (Jun 20, 2017)

Push-ups alone get you a long way. Since I don't have a pull up bar either, I try sneak pull ups in the playground and on ledges and school.


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## jobo (Jun 20, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> It's easier to do a hand stand and then balance against a wall. I can't for the life of me do a real handstand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


its not easy for you there is a barrage of info, most coming from the same place, some just silly

the basic principal of strengh training is adaption by progressive over load, progressive over load is easy in a gym you just put more weight on, with body weight you need to try a bit harder, by juggling volume(how much weight you lift in total or number of reps) and intensity, how heavy it is, or how hard you make it if your doing fast or slow.

but the principal with push ups, would be to start light, by leaning on a counter and do lots of volume to get the muscle working and start the adaptation process, then as you get better, come down in height(which increases the intensity) but do lower reps.work your way down in volume and up in intensity. Till you are doing proper push ups at say 10 reps and build to do say 5 sets of these.
then the problem is that as you are just doing the same exercises over again, the strengh gains,stop.

so you need to make it harder again, so you can elivate your feet, go very fast or very slow or do one of the many push up variations' like archer push up or diamond push ups.

you want to make it difficult enough that you cant get above say 20 reps and when you can dp an easy 20 make it more difficult so you are back to 5or 8 again.
that way to are specifically developing strengh rather than endurance

nb archer push ups are a good bit easier than one armed push ups, not just on the arms, but particularly on the core muscles, that need to be very strong to stop you tipping over


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## CB Jones (Jun 20, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Try doing pushups using chairs. You use three chairs, one for each hand and one for your feet and the idea is to go lower than your hands. With the chairs you can go lower than if you were just doing pushups on the ground. And them come up as far as you can. A very good exercise for upper body strength.



doesnt going below your hands cause shoulder injuries.  I think that is a no no.

I agree with Jobo.  Some really great kettle bell workouts on the web.  And you don't need that many just a few.


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## kuniggety (Jun 20, 2017)

jobo said:


> nb archer push ups are a good bit easier than one armed push ups, not just on the arms, but particularly on the core muscles, that need to be very strong to stop you tipping over



Thanks and, yeah, I always feel weird popping and cracking all over my body when I'm doing one armed push-ups from the core strain.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

stingrae said:


> Part of my problems escaping pins comes from little to no upper body strength. Any workouts you guys can recommend to help me out?
> 
> I can't go to a gym so I won't be using machines and I don't have a pullup bar. I may be able to scrape up some cash to get some of those colorful hand weights you can buy at a sports store.



No pull-up bar? I got a solution for that because in my apartment, none of the doorways are sturdy enough for me to do pull-ups. Here's what I do:

Take two dumbbells and lean over at the waist. Hold the dumbbells with my palms facing toward me, and then lift. It's kind of like a row. The one downfall to this is that when you do a pull-up on the bar, you are lifting all your body weight. Unless I could find 200-lb. dumbbells, I'll never be able to get the same effect with the exercise I just described.

HOWEVER, there is one little nuance I discovered last night that makes up for it: do this dumbbell exercise in an eccentric fashion. What do I mean...do the exercise in a weird way? NO! Not that kind of "eccentric." What it means is when you pull the dumbbells up, you EXPLODE UP, but when they descend, you let.........them.........down.......slllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwlllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. This gave me one hell of a sore back the next day, so I know it works.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

On an unrelated note, I wonder what someone slipped in my coffee this morning!


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## JR 137 (Jun 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> No pull-up bar? I got a solution for that because in my apartment, none of the doorways are sturdy enough for me to do pull-ups. Here's what I do:
> 
> Take two dumbbells and lean over at the waist. Hold the dumbbells with my palms facing toward me, and then lift. It's kind of like a row. The one downfall to this is that when you do a pull-up on the bar, you are lifting all your body weight. Unless I could find 200-lb. dumbbells, I'll never be able to get the same effect with the exercise I just described.
> 
> HOWEVER, there is one little nuance I discovered last night that makes up for it: do this dumbbell exercise in an eccentric fashion. What do I mean...do the exercise in a weird way? NO! Not that kind of "eccentric." What it means is when you pull the dumbbells up, you EXPLODE UP, but when they descend, you let.........them.........down.......slllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwlllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. This gave me one hell of a sore back the next day, so I know it works.


Good sore, or bad sore?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> No pull-up bar? I got a solution for that because in my apartment, none of the doorways are sturdy enough for me to do pull-ups. Here's what I do:
> 
> Take two dumbbells and lean over at the waist. Hold the dumbbells with my palms facing toward me, and then lift. It's kind of like a row. The one downfall to this is that when you do a pull-up on the bar, you are lifting all your body weight. Unless I could find 200-lb. dumbbells, I'll never be able to get the same effect with the exercise I just described.
> 
> HOWEVER, there is one little nuance I discovered last night that makes up for it: do this dumbbell exercise in an eccentric fashion. What do I mean...do the exercise in a weird way? NO! Not that kind of "eccentric." What it means is when you pull the dumbbells up, you EXPLODE UP, but when they descend, you let.........them.........down.......slllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwlllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. This gave me one hell of a sore back the next day, so I know it works.


How far do you lean over? I have been trying to find something to replace pullups (same problem as you), but the way I am imagining this, it would wreck my back.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Good sore, or bad sore?



Good sore. The kind of sore that makes you say, "Thank God I'm alive so I could feel that and know it's working!"

Okay...really, who spiked my coffee?


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> How far do you lean over? I have been trying to find something to replace pullups (same problem as you), but the way I am imagining this, it would wreck my back.



I am having a hard time finding the exact words to describe it. Aside from leaning over, I also bend at the knees.

I will try to find a video and share it.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> How far do you lean over? I have been trying to find something to replace pullups (same problem as you), but the way I am imagining this, it would wreck my back.



Watch what the pretty lady does around 1:28. She passes through it briefly, but that is what I do.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

Here are more solutions. I like #1 because you are using your body weight. Might not be fighting gravity in the same way, but still...


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

Aha! Found a video showing EXACTLY what I do!


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

The cool thing about the last guy is that he also shows you it is possible to do this exercise while varying your hand positions. For the longest time I wasn't sure if I should even bother doing that, but I guess it is good for the sake of variety.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> How far do you lean over? I have been trying to find something to replace pullups (same problem as you), but the way I am imagining this, it would wreck my back.


Look for a video of dumbbell rows (sometimes called bent rows, and similar variations). It's a fairly common exercise, so should be easy to find. If you want to increase the weight, you can do them with one knee and one hand on a bench (so one side of your body is supported, while the other does the exercise). This takes the effort off your back, so you can safely do heavier weights. It removes the core support, though (which isn't so much involved in pull-ups, either).


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Look for a video of dumbbell rows (sometimes called bent rows, and similar variations). It's a fairly common exercise, so should be easy to find. If you want to increase the weight, you can do them with one knee and one hand on a bench (so one side of your body is supported, while the other does the exercise). This takes the effort off your back, so you can safely do heavier weights. It removes the core support, though (which isn't so much involved in pull-ups, either).


hmm, the whole point of pull ups is they work the back muscles, doing the exercise to remove the back muscles is rather pointless, doing the exercise with lighter weights so you don't strain them is a much more sensible option. This then slowly strengthens them, making heavier weights possible
you don't need push ups, you just need pull strengh excersises

pull ups are extremely difficult, most people can't do even one proper one, they are in themselves a demonstration of having good upper body strengh rather then a way of obtaining such strengh, you can do inclined push ups under a table or some such, to build up the muscle or throw a length of rope round a door handle or some such and do upright rows


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> hmm, the whole point of pull ups is they work the back muscles, doing the exercise to remove the back muscles is rather pointless, doing the exercise with lighter weights so you don't strain them is a much more sensible option. This then slowly strengthens them, making heavier weights possible
> 
> pull ups are extremely difficult, most people can't do even one proper one, they are in themselves a demonstration of having good upper body strengh, you can do inclined push ups under a table or some such, to build up the muscle


It doesn't remove the back muscles when you support at a bench. It removes the lower back muscles, which don't get much impact in a pull-up, either. The upper back (lats, trapezius, rhomboids) are still recruited, as they are with any row. The advantage of a standing row is that it recruits the lower back (erector spinae, et al), as well, but that can limit the weight for some folks, reducing recruitment of the upper back muscles.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> hmm, the whole point of pull ups is they work the back muscles, doing the exercise to remove the back muscles is rather pointless, doing the exercise with lighter weights so you don't strain them is a much more sensible option. This then slowly strengthens them, making heavier weights possible
> 
> pull ups are extremely difficult, most people can't do even one proper one, they are in themselves a demonstration of having good upper body strengh rather then a way of obtaining such strengh, you can do inclined push ups under a table or some such, to build up the muscle.





gpseymour said:


> It doesn't remove the back muscles when you support at a bench. It removes the lower back muscles, which don't get much impact in a pull-up, either. The upper back (lats, trapezius, rhomboids) are still recruited, as they are with any row. The advantage of a standing row is that it recruits the lower back (erector spinae, et al), as well, but that can limit the weight for some folks, reducing recruitment of the upper back muscles.


so you build up the lower back, so you can do the exercise properly, rather than change it so you can lift heavier weights with bad form. Other wise you will end up with a strong shoulder gurdle you cant use as you lower back is weak as buttermilk.
if you we're to do lulls ups, you would have to find another excersise to strengthen your lower back, dead lifts are good


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> so you build up the lower back, so you can do the exercise properly, rather than change it so you can lift heavier weights with bad form. Other wise you will end up with a strong shoulder gurdle you cant use as you lower back is weak as buttermilk.
> if you we're to do lulls ups, you would have to find another excersise to strengthen your lower back, dead lifts are good


Yes. But you also can choose to work at capacity for the upper back. There are other exercises that develop the lower back, in the meantime.

And for some people, it's not a matter of strength in the lower back, but of injury. For those folks, the bench version is a way to not let the injury limit upper back development.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. But you also can choose to work at capacity for the upper back. There are other exercises that develop the lower back, in the meantime.
> 
> And for some people, it's not a matter of strength in the lower back, but of injury. For those folks, the bench version is a way to not let the injury limit upper back development.


so in summary, you recommending people with weak lower backs, not to do an exercise that would strengthen their lower back. Rather to do an additional exercise to strengthen it

you need to build your body in unison to avoid imbalance's and posture problems, if you have a weak lower back, you should be strenthening it in the shoulders. You should be bringing you lower back up to good level first


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> so in summary, you recommending people with weak lower backs, not to do an exercise that would strengthen their lower back. Rather to do an additional exercise to strengthen it


Perhaps go back and actually read my post. I recommended precisely the opposite. You're trolling.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps go back and actually read my post. I recommended precisely the opposite. You're trolling.


no that's exactly what you. Said, rest the lower back on the dumbell lifts, but do another exercise to strengthen it


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> no that's exactly what you. Said, rest the lower back on the dumbell lifts, but do another exercise to strengthen it


Yeah, that's right - do another exercise to strengthen it. That's precisely NOT "not to do an exercise that would strengthen their lower back". That's "strengthen the lower back, without sacrificing upper back development".


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, that's right - do another exercise to strengthen it. That's precisely NOT "not to do an exercise that would strengthen their lower back". That's "strengthen the lower back, without sacrificing upper back development".


but you shouldn't be developing upper back unduly if the lower back is weak, that leads to imbalance and postural problem.
that why compound exercises rather than isolation excess s are much much better

if someone has a defined weak point then that should be brought up to standard before you concern yourself with developing other area. That's a part from the fact that,strong shoulders are useless with a weak lower back, from a fighting point of view


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you shouldn't be developing upper back unduly if the lower back is weak, that leads to imbalance and postural problem.
> that why compound exercises rather than isolation excess s are much much better
> 
> if someone has a defined weak point then that should be brought up to standard before you concern yourself with developing other area. That's a part from the fact that,strong shoulders are useless with a weak lower back, from a fighting point of view


There are better exercises for developing the lower back than a bent row. I'd advocate using those if lower back strength is low. But that's no reason to stop developing the upper back, which is not entirely useless just because it is more developed than the lower back. It won't provide its best utility unless/until they get that lower back better, but unless they create a deep imbalance (unlikely if they are directly targeting the lower back with other exercises), it won't be a problem.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There are better exercises for developing the lower back than a bent row. I'd advocate using those if lower back strength is low. But that's no reason to stop developing the upper back, which is not entirely useless just because it is more developed than the lower back. It won't provide its best utility unless/until they get that lower back better, but unless they create a deep imbalance (unlikely if they are directly targeting the lower back with other exercises), it won't be a problem.


the lower back should be very very strong, think dead lifting 400lbs

if the exercise as suggested to to much, you don't have a weak back you have a very very weak back. Developing your body of out functional balance is very dangerous and one of those old fashioned training methodologies' you hang on to


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> the lower back should be very very strong, think dead lifting 400lbs
> 
> if the exercise as suggested to to much, you don't have a weak back you have a very very weak back. Developing your body of out functional balance is very dangerous and one of those old fashioned training methodologies' you hang on to


Deadlifting 400 lbs has never been in my goals. And, again, there are other reasons why people may not want that strain on the back.

And, if you think my adjusting exercise to build around problem areas (rather than ignoring them) and adapting to the needs of an individual is an "old fashioned training methodology", you are delusional.


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## JR 137 (Jun 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Deadlifting 400 lbs has never been in my goals. And, again, there are other reasons why people may not want that strain on the back.
> 
> And, if you think my adjusting exercise to build around problem areas (rather than ignoring them) and adapting to the needs of an individual is an "old fashioned training methodology", you are delusional.


Delusional fits him quite well.


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## Buka (Jun 21, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> How far do you lean over? I have been trying to find something to replace pullups (same problem as you), but the way I am imagining this, it would wreck my back.



You can try putting your head against the wall, not leaning over too much, and do light fly exercises. But stay light, as it really hits the rhomboids.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Deadlifting 400 lbs has never been in my goals. And, again, there are other reasons why people may not want that strain on the back.
> 
> And, if you think my adjusting exercise to build around problem areas (rather than ignoring them) and adapting to the needs of an individual is an "old fashioned training methodology", you are delusional.


but your not adapting to the needs of the individual, your imposing dogma one size fits all, that might very well make his back problem worse.

the inter connection of the human body means that developing the shoulders may very well put additional strain on the lower back.

if someone's back is so weak that exercises like those pit a,strain on it. Then they need someone who knows what he is doing to design a strengning / rehabilitation program for it, before they start other work. Not some one telling them to prop themselves up on a table and carry on, nether mind the consequences
I spent literally months sorting my lower back out before I started throwing weights around


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## CB Jones (Jun 21, 2017)

Exercise database on this website pretty good.

It's listed under training in the menu.

You list equipment available and muscles you want to target and it gives you video list of how to videos for the different exercises.

#1 Exercises Guide! Over 300+ Free Exercise Videos And Guides!


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## JR 137 (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> but your not adapting to the needs of the individual, your imposing dogma one size fits all, that might very well make his back problem worse.
> 
> the inter connection of the human body means that developing the shoulders may very well put additional strain on the lower back.
> 
> ...


Weren't you saying physical/physio therapists weren't necessary a while back?  Or was that unnecessary to you because you know all?  I remember which.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Weren't you saying physical/physio therapists weren't necessary a while back?  Or was that unnecessary to you because you know all?  I remember which.


I said they weren't required for every little injury, but that's somewhat different that sorting out a long term chronic back problem. But even then you dont need them, a decent qualified sports coach will do.

I didn't of cause do that myself,, idid trial and error and found that glute/ back bridges made a great deal of difference, and then as they were so little used the muscle had wasted and i was as weak as a kitten, so I had a major job on building the muscle tissue up again. It was a long and painful process of discovery. But then I wouldnt recommend that to others, as their problem may well be different than mine,so get some proper advice

of Couse if they recommend propping your self up on a table and lifting heavy weights, you may have a fraud on your hands. RUN


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> but your not adapting to the needs of the individual, your imposing dogma one size fits all, that might very well make his back problem worse.
> 
> the inter connection of the human body means that developing the shoulders may very well put additional strain on the lower back.
> 
> ...


Um, where do you get "dogma" and "one size fits all" from me saying that someone with lower back issues (whether weakness or injury) might benefit from using a different exercise to strengthen the lower back, while removing the lower back from this one so they can target the upper back more effectively? That's rather the opposite of "one size fits all". As for "dogma", perhaps look up the word and figure out how you're going to justify applying it here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Weren't you saying physical/physio therapists weren't necessary a while back?  Or was that unnecessary to you because you know all?  I remember which.


Yes, he was. It's another of his contradictions. He asserted that all the information needed for exercise (whether fitness or rehabilitation) was available on YouTube. And, yet, he claims I have a one-size-fits-all approach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> of Couse if they recommend propping your self up on a table and lifting heavy weights, you may have a fraud on your hands. RUN


You do know, I hope, that that's actually a commonly-used exercise form. It's not an arbitrary bit of adjustment, but a standard variation of the exercise, often used for precisely the purposes I spoke of. Now, if someone were to advise you to go and arbitrarily adjust what you do until you find a good fit, that might be a bad idea. I'd suggest running, but you're likely to have injured yourself already, so probably should walk gingerly.


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## KangTsai (Jun 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> doesnt going below your hands cause shoulder injuries.  I think that is a no no.
> 
> I agree with Jobo.  Some really great kettle bell workouts on the web.  And you don't need that many just a few.


It doesn't. In fact, it's a pectoral stretch, which creates more tension.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> It doesn't. In fact, it's a pectoral stretch, which creates more tension.


yes its a pec stretch, used to overload them and build a bigger chest, but it's also associated with rotator cuff issues, as are dumbell flies which are done for the same reason.

I'm not sure that building strengh at that angle is all that usefull in the real word, therefore its only useful if you purpose is building a bigger chest


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes its a pec stretch, used to overload them and build a bigger chest, but it's also associated with rotator cuff issues, as are dumbell flies which are done for the same reason.
> 
> I'm not sure that building strengh at that angle is all that usefull in the real word, therefore its only useful if you purpose is building a bigger chest


If I recall correctly (reaching way back into older information here), this stretch has little value for chest size beyond the mid-to-late 20's. Something to do with it helping expand the volume (? probably not the right term here) of the ribcage by stretching connective tissue that later loses the ability to flex to any significant extent. I don't know if there's anything newer on that - I think I read that 15 years ago.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If I recall correctly (reaching way back into older information here), this stretch has little value for chest size beyond the mid-to-late 20's. Something to do with it helping expand the volume (? probably not the right term here) of the ribcage by stretching connective tissue that later loses the ability to flex to any significant extent. I don't know if there's anything newer on that - I think I read that 15 years ago.



it not only stretchs them , it increase the effective load and the tome under tension
that's a slightly different argument, building muscle mass , by any means,beyond your thirties is a much much slower process than in the Halcion days of lots of HGH flooding round your system .

hence the number of people from late twenties onwards who use chemical assistance.

but yes,  if you are prepared to put the time and effort in, it has value , its just the results are very slow and quite possibly disappointing


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it not only stretchs them , it increase the effective load and the tome under tension
> that's a slightly different argument, building muscle mass , by any means,beyond your thirties is a much much slower process than in the Halcion days of lots of HGH flooding round your system .
> 
> hence the number of people from late twenties onwards who use chemical assistance.
> ...


to add that the muscle most prized are the ones that are the most difficult to actually grows ie the abs the pecs and the biceps, as in normal use they have a very short range of motion and are not commonly maximally recruited in every day life. That's why people spend hours doing isolation movement in unrealistic positions to over load them in a way you could never do , in functional movement.

hence the lack of functional strengh that this exercise would actually give you


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it not only stretchs them , it increase the effective load and the tome under tension
> that's a slightly different argument, building muscle mass , by any means,beyond your thirties is a much much slower process than in the Halcion days of lots of HGH flooding round your system .
> 
> hence the number of people from late twenties onwards who use chemical assistance.
> ...


I think I wasn't clear. The article I was referring to (no reference to cite - this was many years ago), suggested most of the "gain" in chest size from this (as opposed to the same exercises not taken to that extent) was actually expansion of the ribcage, and that this expansion wasn't possible (to any significant extent) after the late 20's.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think I wasn't clear. The article I was referring to (no reference to cite - this was many years ago), suggested most of the "gain" in chest size from this (as opposed to the same exercises not taken to that extent) was actually expansion of the ribcage, and that this expansion wasn't possible (to any significant extent) after the late 20's.


Il except that, but there are still gains to be made from maximal over load of the muscle and the increased time under tension, but at the expense of rotator cuff issues.

from memory, a standard pish up recruits the pec muscle at 110% which will lead to growth un till such time as your body adapts. Going below parallel will increase that loading again increasing growth, and as the pec muscle is under tension for a longer period it will be additional  loaded.

so in order to reach agreement for once, the benefit of doing this is far less out of your twenties AND its a potential dangerous exercise to do at any age


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## Langenschwert (Jun 22, 2017)

Judo pushups:


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2017)

Langenschwert said:


> Judo pushups:


We do those with a bigger angle at the start (think Downward Facing Dog), and don't reverse them (like the "easier" way he shows) - "Dive Bomber" pushups.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> the lower back should be very very strong, think dead lifting 400lbs



I weigh 119 lbs you are saying I should be deadlifting 400lb?


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I weigh 119 lbs you are saying I should be deadlifting 400lb?



two, three even four times body weight is quite achievable for a fit strong healthy person .so yes you probably could if you worked up to it

I would go as far as saying if you cant lift two times body weight in your case 240 lbs, you don't count as reasonably strong, if you cant lift you body weight x one, then you are officially weak

nb knock a bit off coz your a girl, call it 100 and 200 respectively


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> two, three even four times body weight is quite achievable for a fit strong healthy person .so yes you probably could if you worked up to it
> 
> I would go as far as saying if you cant lift two times body weight in your case 240 lbs, you don't count as reasonably strong,


I have no idea what I can deadlift. I don't think I've ever incorporated deadlifts in my workout. I can guarantee my knees would complain mightily if I got anywhere near doubly my bodyweight (that would be about 350 lbs.). Am I strong enough to lift it? Dunno. Functionally, I'm stronger than most people around me. I'm strong enough to do things I try to do, though certainly not as strong as I was 17 years ago (probably my fittest and strongest time).


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> nb knock a bit off coz your a girl,



This 63 year old thanks you. I can still throw a straw bale into the back of the Landrover, I can still carry kids across a field when they've been hurt, I can still do a lot of functional things I have always done. I have never deadlifted and I don't intend to start now.


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## Langenschwert (Jun 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> We do those with a bigger angle at the start (think Downward Facing Dog), and don't reverse them (like the "easier" way he shows) - "Dive Bomber" pushups.



In judo, we do them each way separately, not in one go as this guy does. So the easy way in each direction. I hate them so much, but they're effective.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2017)

Langenschwert said:


> In judo, we do them each way separately, not in one go as this guy does. So the easy way in each direction. I hate them so much, but they're effective.


They are among my favorites, mostly because of the moaning from my students when I announce them.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I have no idea what I can deadlift. I don't think I've ever incorporated deadlifts in my workout. I can guarantee my knees would complain mightily if I got anywhere near doubly my bodyweight (that would be about 350 lbs.). Am I strong enough to lift it? Dunno. Functionally, I'm stronger than most people around me. I'm strong enough to do things I try to do, though certainly not as strong as I was 17 years ago (probably my fittest and strongest time).


there of course many ways of looking at the issue of strengh fitness and how much you need.

I was once of the same view as you, as long as i have enough for what I do, that's fine. But that was quite limiting', as a 55yo i didn't actual do that much, so then I thought, what I need is the fitness I had 15 years ago, coz then I can actually do a lot more things, so that was the target. Then a few unfortunate things happen in quick succession to change my focus.

for instance, an akitta (Japanese bear killing dog) was ripping the throat out of my little dog and i was barely strong enough to get it off. Then my mother collapsed and I had to carry her some way home and it nearly killed me. And a few other unpleasant things

so I decided that being strong enough for the things I do or even the things I wish I could do wasn't good enough, I needed to be ad strong,as I could be to deal with the horrible unexpected things that might happen , where my life or a loved ones or even a stranger might be dependent on that extra bit of strengh .or being able to run a little bit faster


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## JR 137 (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> two, three even four times body weight is quite achievable for a fit strong healthy person .so yes you probably could if you worked up to it
> 
> I would go as far as saying if you cant lift two times body weight in your case 240 lbs, you don't count as reasonably strong, if you cant lift you body weight x one, then you are officially weak
> 
> nb knock a bit off coz your a girl, call it 100 and 200 respectively


So where does age and/or limitations due to injury fit into your definition?

What if someone is weak by your deadlift standards, yet can do other things like a dozen single arm pull-ups?  Or bench press 2x their body weight?  Or carry a person heavier than them up and down a ladder?

Your view is quite narrow.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> there of course many ways of looking at the issue of strengh fitness and how much you need.
> 
> I was once of the same view as you, as long as i have enough for what I do, that's fine. But that was quite limiting', as a 55yo i didn't actual do that much, so then I thought, what I need is the fitness I had 15 years ago, coz then I can actually do a lot more things, so that was the target. Then a few unfortunate things happen in quick succession to change my focus.
> 
> ...


My priorities don't really leave that kind of time. I build functional strength for what I need, and accept that.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My priorities don't really leave that kind of time. I build functional strength for what I need, and accept that.


how long does it take to dead lift, ?10mins for three sets once a week, its hardly a big commitment


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> So where does age and/or limitations due to injury fit into your definition?
> 
> What if someone is weak by your deadlift standards, yet can do other things like a dozen single arm pull-ups?  Or bench press 2x their body weight?  Or carry a person heavier than them up and down a ladder?
> 
> Your view is quite narrow.


if you are limited by injury, then fixing the injury so your not limited seems a good idea, if it can't be fixed then you are stuck with being weak unfortunately

if you simplify the whole thing, you have pulling things, pushing things, and picking things up.

if you want functional strength, ie real world strengh to actually do things, you need to develop all three .

your not going to be able to carry a fat girl down a ladder with a,weak lower back and under developed quads, ie the very things that dead lifting sorts out. Or if you can firemans lift a 300lb woman, you will have no trouble dead lifting the same weight
its just easier to practise as you can't always find a fat bird that will let you carry her up and down a ladder


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## JR 137 (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> if you are limited by injury, then fixing the injury so your not limited seems a good idea, if it can't be fixed then you are stuck with being weak unfortunately
> 
> if you simplify the whole thing, you have pulling things, pushing things, and picking things up.
> 
> ...



You have quite an eloquent way with words.  I'm sure the ladies absolutely adore you.  But I digress...

Eccentric strength is required for a lot of things, yet your understated rambling doesn't address putting things down, especially the heavy things you so tastefully speak of.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> You have quite an eloquent way with words.  I'm sure the ladies absolutely adore you.  But I digress...
> 
> Eccentric strength is required for a lot of things, yet your understated rambling doesn't address putting things down, especially the heavy things you so tastefully speak of.


well it sort of goes with out needing to be said, unless you are going to carry the fat girl round forever


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## JR 137 (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> well it sort of goes with out needing to be said, unless you are going to carry the fat girl round forever


What part doesn't need to be said?  That the ladies love your smooth command of the English language?


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> What part doesn't need to be said?  That the ladies love your smooth command of the English language?


how did you know that?


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## JR 137 (Jun 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> how did you know that?


I only play dumb on these here forums.


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## kuniggety (Jun 22, 2017)

Jobo might not be selling it well but deadlifts (as well as back squats) are one of the best functional strength exercises you can do for your body. You work almost every major muscle group. With proper form, you will strengthen and not inflame any back injuries you might have as well as any knee issues. Like most people in the modern world, I have issues with APT (anterior pelvic tilt) and have had recurring back issues due to poor posture. Lifting has helped correct both issues. Everybody is built differently so it's difficult to set goals of 1.5x body weight for one exercise or 2x for another until you've actually assessed where you're at and then can make realistic expectations of where you want to get.


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## JR 137 (Jun 22, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Jobo might not be selling it well but deadlifts (as well as back squats) are one of the best functional strength exercises you can do for your body. You work almost every major muscle group. With proper form, you will strengthen and not inflame any back injuries you might have as well as any knee issues. Like most people in the modern world, I have issues with APT (anterior pelvic tilt) and have had recurring back issues due to poor posture. Lifting has helped correct both issues. Everybody is built differently so it's difficult to set goals of 1.5x body weight for one exercise or 2x for another until you've actually assessed where you're at and then can make realistic expectations of where you want to get.


I don't think anyone discounted the efficacy of deadlifts.  It's his demeanor and his matter of factness that needs to be checked, along with his absolute claims, kind of like if you don't/can't deadlift at least 2x your body weight, you're weak.  Nonsense.

And his take a single line someone says, coming to some delusional conclusion about what you said, and proving you wrong (in his own world) about it.

Deadlifts are a fantastic exercise.  They're not the be all, end all measure of strength our friend makes them out to be.  IMO the snatch and clean and jerk are far better assessor of strength.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> how long does it take to dead lift, ?10mins for three sets once a week, its hardly a big commitment


Deadlift alone is not a full workout, and I've already pointed out that my knees limit the weight to less than my maximum.


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Jobo might not be selling it well but deadlifts (as well as back squats) are one of the best functional strength exercises you can do for your body. You work almost every major muscle group. With proper form, you will strengthen and not inflame any back injuries you might have as well as any knee issues. Like most people in the modern world, I have issues with APT (anterior pelvic tilt) and have had recurring back issues due to poor posture. Lifting has helped correct both issues. Everybody is built differently so it's difficult to set goals of 1.5x body weight for one exercise or 2x for another until you've actually assessed where you're at and then can make realistic expectations of where you want to get.


jr 37 is just the forum bully, it doesn't matter what i say, he follows me from thread to thread not discussing what i say, but rather making personal attacks.


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I don't think anyone discounted the efficacy of deadlifts.  It's his demeanor and his matter of factness that needs to be checked, along with his absolute claims, kind of like if you don't/can't deadlift at least 2x your body weight, you're weak.  Nonsense.
> 
> And his take a single line someone says, coming to some delusional conclusion about what you said, and proving you wrong (in his own world) about it.
> 
> Deadlifts are a fantastic exercise.  They're not the be all, end all measure of strength our friend makes them out to be.  IMO the snatch and clean and jerk are far better assessor of strength.


your mis quoting me again, I haven't said anywhere an inability to lift 2x body weight makes you weak,


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> jr 37 is just the forum bully, it doesn't matter what i say, he follows me from thread to thread not discussing what i say, but rather making personal attacks.


Ah, yes. He's the one who breaks out the personal attacks. Of course.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 23, 2017)

So I wonder what @kempodisciple thought of the videos I shared to illustrate the pull-up replacement exercise.


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Deadlift alone is not a full workout, and I've already pointed out that my knees limit the weight to less than my maximum.


I've seen much the same excuse chain from other, mostly middle aged ,men. In that my knees/ back or what ever won't support this exercise. Which is reasonable logic, apart from the fact that starting at a low weight and building up would much improve the strength and therefore the health of your knees.

you may or may not get to a certain level, but in trying you would a) have greater lower body strengh than you do now and b) knees in a much more functional state

10 mins every other day, though not optimal, is sufficient to complete a full body work out over a week and make strengh gains, if you go for compound exercises


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> I've seen much the same excuse chain from other, mostly middle aged ,men. In that my knees/ back or what ever won't support this exercise. Which is reasonable logic, apart from the fact that starting at a low weight and building up would much improve the strength and therefore the health of your knees.
> 
> you may or may not get to a certain level, but in trying you would a) have greater lower body strengh than you do now and b) knees in a much more functional state
> 
> 10 mins every other day, though not optimal, is sufficient to complete a full body work out over a week and make strengh gains, if you go for compound exercises


The knees aren't weak. They are arthritic. They twinge walking on stairs, though I can still squat a significant amount - I just pay dearly for it the next day if I do. So, not an excuse, a reason to avoid activities that make it worse.

You're making assumptions again.


----------



## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The knees aren't weak. They are arthritic. They twinge walking on stairs, though I can still squat a significant amount - I just pay dearly for it the next day if I do. So, not an excuse, a reason to avoid activities that make it worse.
> 
> You're making assumptions again.


and even that condition would be much improved or at least slowed down by flexing them and strengthening the surrounding tissue. By not working them the regression of your movement will just get worse and worse You may have to endure a little discomfort, but the pay off of having ( more)functioning knees will be well worth it

the answer to the majority of joint problems to  move it and build up the connective tissue


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2017)

I've dug this up, it may be of interest. Posters on here include a kick boxing world champion, 2 UFC fighters, MMA coaches, pro fighters and fitness trainers.
The Negatives of Conventional Weight Training


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I've dug this up, it may be of interest. Posters on here include a kick boxing world champion, 2 UFC fighters, MMA coaches, pro fighters and fitness trainers.
> The Negatives of Conventional Weight Training


I'm sure that would be very interesting, but both of the linked articles are coming up as unavailable.

if I hazard a guess at the content, the issues with weight training are bad form which damages rather than strenghens a joint/ muscle mixed with trying to lift to much to soon.which is generaly why they have bad form, a bit of a vicious circle

if you can find an actual link,bid be interested to know if they agree,


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2017)

Not sure why the articles aren't coming up, however I think the points raised by the posters are more interesting.


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not sure why the articles aren't coming up, however I think the points raised by the posters are more interesting.


possible because they are from 2009and have been taken down and replaced by something else.

Il have a read later, but its difficult to know if I agree or not, when its not clear what part of the article they are taking issue / agreeing with


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> and even that condition would be much improved or at least slowed down by flexing them and strengthening the surrounding tissue. By not working them the regression of your movement will just get worse and worse You may have to endure a little discomfort, but the pay off of having ( more)functioning knees will be well worth it
> 
> the answer to the majority of joint problems to  move it and build up the connective tissue


Again, you're making a baseless assumption and asserting it as a fact about what I do. I do work them. But this is like the previous incidence where you dogmatically insist there's a one-size-fits-all solution. Exercises like deadlifts won't have nearly as much effect on the rest of my body, because my knees limit what I can reasonably bear. So I use different exercises. You know, I adjust to strengthen what needs strengthening, without letting it unnecessarily limit other areas of development.

As for the "little discomfort", that's another assumption. Some days, it means Aleve is just enough to let me walk without a limp...if I use a cane.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> possible because they are from 2009and have been taken down and replaced by something else.
> 
> Il have a read later, but its difficult to know if I agree or not, when its not clear what part of the article they are taking issue / agreeing with



Actually they don't talk much about the articles more about their personal training.


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Again, you're making a baseless assumption and asserting it as a fact about what I do. I do work them. But this is like the previous incidence where you dogmatically insist there's a one-size-fits-all solution. Exercises like deadlifts won't have nearly as much effect on the rest of my body, because my knees limit what I can reasonably bear. So I use different exercises. You know, I adjust to strengthen what needs strengthening, without letting it unnecessarily limit other areas of development.
> 
> As for the "little discomfort", that's another assumption. Some days, it means Aleve is just enough to let me walk without a limp...if I use a cane.



but this is the silly work round solution thing that started this debate. You strength in functional movement is now limited by your knees
. It doesn't matter what you do to develop the other parts of your body as your knees will always be your weak link. In fact by training other parts and ignoring your knees you causing postural imbalance's which may well make your condition worse.

that is the practice problem you face. The ONLY solution is to improve the strengh / durability of your weakest part.
that not one size fits all, that the actual facts of the matter


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> but this is the silly work round solution thing that started this debate. You strength in functional movement is now limited by your knees
> . It doesn't matter what you do to develop the other parts of your body as your knees will always be your weak link. In fact by training other parts and ignoring your knees you causing postural imbalance's which may well make your condition worse.
> 
> that is the practice problem you face. The ONLY solution is to improve the strengh / durability of your weakest part.
> that not one size fits all, that the actual facts of the matter


There you go again. Didn't I just say I don't ignore my knees. There are exercises that I can do that don't bother them so much, and I do those. Doing things that cause pain IS NOT a safe way to develop. You remember calling my approach dogmatic and one-size-fits all? Did you notice that you're dogmatically insisting that this particular exercise is right for everyone - even if it causes pain?

And arthritis is not muscular weakness. Strengthening support muscles and using the joint will mitigate it, but it does change what the joint is capable of, as well as changing what is a good idea for a joint. Walk on my knees the day after I over-use them - when I won't be able to do any significant exercise for a few days - then tell me that's really the best approach.

You put forth as if you have actual knowledge, then seem to ignore the most basic information, including what people tell you about what they are doing.


----------



## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There you go again. Didn't I just say I don't ignore my knees. There are exercises that I can do that don't bother them so much, and I do those. Doing things that cause pain IS NOT a safe way to develop. You remember calling my approach dogmatic and one-size-fits all? Did you notice that you're dogmatically insisting that this particular exercise is right for everyone - even if it causes pain?
> 
> And arthritis is not muscular weakness. Strengthening support muscles and using the joint will mitigate it, but it does change what the joint is capable of, as well as changing what is a good idea for a joint. Walk on my knees the day after I over-use them - when I won't be able to do any significant exercise for a few days - then tell me that's really the best approach.
> 
> You put forth as if you have actual knowledge, then seem to ignore the most basic information, including what people tell you about what they are doing.


but if you are not loading your knees up, you are ignoring the strength of the connective tissue. Just doing an easy exercise is a work round, that will not redress your weakness.
I am having trouble with how you can state you can't walk up stairs with out pain let alone do a light dead lift and you not accepting that you have a significant weakness


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> but if you are not loading your knees up, you are ignoring the strength of the connective tissue. Just doing an easy exercise is a work round, that will not redress your weakness.
> I am having trouble with how you can state you can't walk up stairs with out pain let alone do a light dead lift and you not accepting that you have a significant weakness


Pain deep in a joint does not equal muscle weakness. If you don't get that, I can't help you.


----------



## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Pain deep in a joint does not equal muscle weakness. If you don't get that, I can't help you.


well sort of, you you don't load your knees up because of the pain, your muscles will waste and weakness will follow. The more you don't load it the weaker you will be come, until the point where you have trouble supporting your own weight. Which by your description is not very far away


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> well sort of, you you don't load your knees up because of the pain, your muscles will waste and weakness will follow. The more you don't load it the weaker you will be come, until the point where you have trouble supporting your own weight. Which by your description is not very far away


Oy. You just don't listen, do you? I guess we're done here. Again.


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## JR 137 (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> your mis quoting me again, I haven't said anywhere an inability to lift 2x body weight makes you weak,



Which leads me to 



jobo said:


> I would go as far as saying if you cant lift two times body weight in your case 240 lbs, you don't count as reasonably strong, if you cant lift you body weight x one, then you are officially weak



And



jobo said:


> two, three even four times body weight is quite achievable for a fit strong healthy person .so yes you probably could if you worked up to it
> 
> I would go as far as saying if you cant lift two times body weight in your case 240 lbs, you don't count as reasonably strong, if you cant lift you body weight x one, then you are officially weak
> 
> nb knock a bit off coz your a girl, call it 100 and 200 respectively



Perhaps I misread "body weight x one" as body weight x one more of your body weight rather than body weight for 1 rep.

But everything else I quoted still contradicts the first quote.  All your words, not mine, so how am I misquoting?


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Which leads me to
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've no idea what your trying to convey, I said a failure to lift body weight x one meant you were weak. You claimed I said body weight x two equaled being weak.

that's miss quoting me


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## JR 137 (Jun 23, 2017)

I guess I'm on Deebo's level






jobo said:


> jr 37 is just the forum bully, it doesn't matter what i say, he follows me from thread to thread not discussing what i say, but rather making personal attacks.


Actually, I admittedly attack your asinine posts 99% of the time.  If you want to take that other 1% of the time personally and call me a bully for it, that's your business.


----------



## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I guess I'm on Deebo's level
> View attachment 20855
> Actually, I admittedly attack your asinine posts 99% of the time.  If you want to take that other 1% of the time personally and call me a bully for it, that's your business.


I dont,actually care that much, I've met plenty of bullies like you in my life and the one's 2000 miles away aren't that much of a threat. If I was in the same town as you, I admit i would find your at stalking and aggresion. A bit of a worry


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## wingchun100 (Jun 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I guess I'm on Deebo's level
> View attachment 20855
> Actually, I admittedly attack your asinine posts 99% of the time.  If you want to take that other 1% of the time personally and call me a bully for it, that's your business.



You know why the sequels sucked?

No Chris Tucker.


----------



## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Again, you're making a baseless assumption and asserting it as a fact about what I do. I do work them. But this is like the previous incidence where you dogmatically insist there's a one-size-fits-all solution. Exercises like deadlifts won't have nearly as much effect on the rest of my body, because my knees limit what I can reasonably bear. So I use different exercises. You know, I adjust to strengthen what needs strengthening, without letting it unnecessarily limit other areas of development.
> 
> As for the "little discomfort", that's another assumption. Some days, it means Aleve is just enough to let me walk without a limp...if I use a cane.


here some info on how,exercises helps
How Exercise Helps Knee Arthritis
Exercising an arthritic knee may seem counterintuitive, but regular exercise can actually lessen — and even relieve — arthritis pain and other symptoms, such as stiffness and swelling.
There are several reasons to exercise with knee arthritis. For example:
Exercise maintains the joint’s full range of motion.
Exercise strengthens the muscles that support the joint.
Strong muscles help the joint absorb shock.
Exercise doesn’t have to be hard to be beneficial. In fact, gentle, low-impact exercises are best for knee arthritis. They minimize stress on the joint even as they increase its flexibility and strength

id just draw your attention to the part that says how important,strong muscles are


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> here some info on how,exercises helps
> How Exercise Helps Knee Arthritis
> Exercising an arthritic knee may seem counterintuitive, but regular exercise can actually lessen — and even relieve — arthritis pain and other symptoms, such as stiffness and swelling.
> There are several reasons to exercise with knee arthritis. For example:
> ...


Once again, you're assuming I don't exercise. I'm not sure why you keep forgetting that, except that doing so serves your apparent purpose here.

If you need to win this by whatever means necessary, go ahead.


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Once again, you're assuming I don't exercise. I'm not sure why you keep forgetting that, except that doing so serves your apparent purpose here.
> 
> If you need to win this by whatever means necessary, go ahead.


I had(past tense)the same issue, constant pain, inflammation, couldnt walk down stairs properly , my issue has more of less gone, I have full range of motion and only mild discomfort. The reason, i strenghend the tissue around the knee and the associated muscles, by doing , you guessed it dead lifts, though I started with lunges and worked my way to dead lifts.
to do this I worked through the pain and the inflammation, as its a serious benefit, and what's the alternative, life long incapacity'. If the exercise's you are doing are not giving you thr same results, then its fair to assume they are not the right exercises or you are not pushing yourself enough.

I find your whole attitude hard to understand, I make a simple post about dead lifts and their benefits. And you contradict me and continue to contradict me for twenty or more posts, then when it turns out I was correct all along, you get all huffy and start with this "win at all costs" nonsenses, can't you put me back on ignore and save us both the heartache'


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> I had(past tense)the same issue, constant pain, inflammation, couldnt walk down stairs properly , my issue has more of less gone, I have full range of motion and only mild discomfort. The reason, i strenghend the tissue around the knee and the associated muscles, by doing , you guessed it dead lifts, though I started with lunges and worked my way to dead lifts.
> to do this I worked through the pain and the inflammation, as its a serious benefit, and what's the alternative, life long incapacity'. If the exercise's you are doing are not giving you thr same results, then its fair to assume they are not the right exercises or you are not pushing yourself enough.
> 
> I find your whole attitude hard to understand, I make a simple post about dead lifts and their benefits. And you contradict me and continue to contradict me for twenty or more posts, then when it turns out I was correct all along, you get all huffy and start with this "win at all costs" nonsenses, can't you put me back on ignore and save us both the heartache'


You, then, by some posts of mine on a forum, are better able to diagnose this than my doctor, and have better advice than he and my PT? Interesting super power you have there.


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You, then, by some posts of mine on a forum, are better able to diagnose this than my doctor, and have better advice than he and my PT? Interesting super power you have there.


I haven't diagnosed it, you told me what it is/??????


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> I haven't diagnosed it, you told me what it is/??????


No, I told you a couple of the symptoms. You've decided this one exercise must be part of my regimen, or I'm neglecting my knee. I'd much rather take the advice of the professionals - which includes NOT doing certain exercises if they cause pain deep in the knee.


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No, I told you a couple of the symptoms. You've decided this one exercise must be part of my regimen, or I'm neglecting my knee. I'd much rather take the advice of the professionals - which includes NOT doing certain exercises if they cause pain deep in the knee.


no you definitely said it was arthritis, that's sound like a diagnosis to me


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> no you definitely said it was arthritis, that's sound like a diagnosis to me


Okay, I did provide that term. That's a non-specific diagnosis, though - only slightly better than saying "it's cancer" ("cancer" covers a pretty wide range). There are different kinds of arthritis. Some are accute, some are chronic. Not all are treated the same way, and some are related to an injury (in my case, probably part of the issue) and some are either structural or genetic (definitely part of my problem). "Arthritis" simply refers to inflammation, not the cause, nor the specific problem - in my case, arthritis is one of the symptoms, and part of the diagnosis.


----------



## jobo (Jun 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I did provide that term. That's a non-specific diagnosis, though - only slightly better than saying "it's cancer" ("cancer" covers a pretty wide range). There are different kinds of arthritis. Some are accute, some are chronic. Not all are treated the same way, and some are related to an injury (in my case, probably part of the issue) and some are either structural or genetic (definitely part of my problem). "Arthritis" simply refers to inflammation, not the cause, nor the specific problem - in my case, arthritis is one of the symptoms, and part of the diagnosis.


so you were wrong, I didn't try and diagnose you condition from a couple of symptom


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> so you were wrong, I didn't try and diagnose you condition from a couple of symptom


Actually, you still did. Arthritis is a partial diagnosis - you decided the remainder of the diagnosis with minimal information. And decided that your one point of reference must override all other information I had (without even asking what that information might be - rather dogmatic of you).


----------



## jobo (Jun 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, you still did. Arthritis is a partial diagnosis - you decided the remainder of the diagnosis with minimal information. And decided that your one point of reference must override all other information I had (without even asking what that information might be - rather dogmatic of you).


no arthritis is the diagnosis, and more to the point the one you gave.

after that the therapy for treatment / alleviation's is the same.
you seem to have accepted that you fate ad a not so slow decline in to being a semi invalid. That I suppose is a personality issue. Other would fight through the pain to maintain/ improve their quality of life. No one can say your passive behavior is wrong, it is after all the quality of your life we are talking about.
its a terrible disease, that is as much about muscle wastage as it is about bones.
the more it hurts, the less you do, the less range of movement you use, the less you work your muscles, the more it hurts.

you are clearly not looking for a constructive discussion of exercise, just trying to justify your victim status.

so best leave it there


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Arthritis" simply refers to inflammation, not the cause, nor the specific problem - in my case, arthritis is one of the symptoms, and part of the diagnosis.



According to Arthritis Research UK, you are completely correct.

Conditions | Arthritis Research UK

_"There are about 200 different musculoskeletal conditions. Arthritis is a term used by doctors to describe inflammation within a joint,"

_


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> after that the therapy for treatment / alleviation's is the same.


This is the key part where you are assuming you've got all the information.

Here's the Arthritis Foundation's list of 100 types of arthritis. Which one is it I have? Which ones fit your one-size-fits-all solution?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 25, 2017)

I have two friends with Ehlers-Danlos, a work colleague's wife has Lupus, my father has  Ankylosing Spondylitis and a girl I knew in the RAF was invalided out with Rheumatoid Arthritis. All very different and not  treated the same way.


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> no arthritis is the diagnosis, and more to the point the one you gave.
> 
> after that the therapy for treatment / alleviation's is the same.
> you seem to have accepted that you fate ad a not so slow decline in to being a semi invalid. That I suppose is a personality issue. Other would fight through the pain to maintain/ improve their quality of life. No one can say your passive behavior is wrong, it is after all the quality of your life we are talking about.
> ...



You're big on proving everything says wrong, so prove me wrong...

When and where did Gerry (@gpseymour) say he's given up, accepted his fate, and will waste away while doing nothing to help himself and his condition?  Has he retired from MA training and teaching?  Has he said he doesn't exercise?  Has he said he doesn't do any exercises for his knee?  Has he said he doesn't do any treatment whatsoever for his knee?

He has however discounted your expertise (in your own mind) and said that doesn't work for him, so don't bother quoting him saying he avoids your golden standard deadlifts because it bothers his knee(s). 

Rather than interpret and/or assume; quotes, please, or it never happened.

I'm pretty sure this will bring about another delusional post by you, but what the hell; I'm bored and can use the mindless entertainment.


----------



## CB Jones (Jun 25, 2017)

I feel your pain Gerry.

My right knee no longer allows deep squats or lunges.....unless I want to hobble around for a week in pain.

I'm trying to hold out a few more years before having surgery.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I feel your pain Gerry.
> 
> My right knee no longer allows deep squats or lunges.....unless I want to hobble around for a week in pain.
> 
> I'm trying to hold out a few more years before having surgery.


My doc thinks we might be able to put it off a long time. Yoga and some changes to my MA practice and exercise regimen seem to be helping. One of them looks like a probable candidate for replacement down the line if it continues the way it has.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 26, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> So I wonder what @kempodisciple thought of the videos I shared to illustrate the pull-up replacement exercise.


There are a couple of exercises on there that I liked, been doing the table one mentioned in the second video since it has its own progression with it.

Meant to reply thanking you, but got distracted by all the bickering in this thread.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jun 26, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> There are a couple of exercises on there that I liked, been doing the table one mentioned in the second video since it has its own progression with it.
> 
> Meant to reply thanking you, but got distracted by all the bickering in this thread.



No problem. Glad you found something useful in it.


----------



## Zombocalypse (Jul 9, 2017)

To the OP.

I would tell you that a gym membership in a gym with adjustable free-weights (barbells and dumbbells), a squat rack, a place to bench press and do pull-ups is *absolutely necessary* for strength development, but you specifically said that you can't, so here's my advice...

Buy KETTLEBELLS. They are more ergonomic and versatile than dumbbells and you can work your entire body with them. Start light and then go heavy as you get stronger. Obviously, this involves buying more kettlebells as you progress in strength, but it must be done. It will at least be a semblance of a foundational strength training principle: Progressive Overload.

Even without a pull-up bar, you could still do bent-over rows with a pair of kettlebells, thereby working your upper-back muscles and biceps.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 9, 2017)

Zombocalypse said:


> To the OP.
> 
> I would tell you that a gym membership in a gym with adjustable free-weights (barbells and dumbbells), a squat rack, a place to bench press and do pull-ups is *absolutely necessary* for strength development, but you specifically said that you can't, so here's my advice...
> 
> ...


Bent over rows with kettlebells feel so much better/effective to me than with dumbells and barbells.  I think it's the center of mass being lower.


----------



## jobo (Jul 9, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Bent over rows with kettlebells feel so much better/effective to me than with dumbells and barbells.  I think it's the center of mass being lower.


kettle bells are ace, and a large part of the reason the Russian's won at Stalingrad . Well that and the snow

they didn't take any to Afghanistan and we know how that turned out


----------



## Zombocalypse (Jul 9, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Bent over rows with kettlebells feel so much better/effective to me than with dumbells and barbells.  I think it's the center of mass being lower.



If you really mean that, please "like" my post.

You too, Jobo.


----------



## Zombocalypse (Jul 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> kettle bells are ace, and a large part of the reason the Russian's won at Stalingrad . Well that and the snow
> 
> they didn't take any to Afghanistan and we know how that turned out



You too, Jobo.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Bent over rows with kettlebells feel so much better/effective to me than with dumbells and barbells.  I think it's the center of mass being lower.


If we compare

1. dumb bell - develop arm,
2. kettle bell - develop arm. wrist,
3. throwing bag - develop arm, wrist, fingers,

I'll say 3 > 2 > 1.

A 20 lb (maximum 23 lb) bag filled with 50% BB and 50% sand will give you good work out for the rest of your life.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 10, 2017)

Zombocalypse said:


> If you really mean that, please "like" my post.
> 
> You too, Jobo.


What if I don't agree with the rest of your post?  Are you trying to collect "likes"  ? I don't agree that the OP has to go out and buy kettlebells.  I was just saying I like doing bent over rows with kettlebells better than with dumbbells.  I prefer to do some exercises with barbells and dumbells over kettlebells, and vice versa.

If someone is looking for a single piece of equipment, buy a large and sturdy/well made duffle bag.  Fill it with rocks, dirt, or whatever else and use that.  If they're creative enough, they can do a ton of stuff with it.  A bit of a hassle to fill and empty as needed, but dirt cheap.  Around here, kettlebells are a little over $2 a pound.  So a pair of 20 lb kettlebells will cost over $80.

And they're not too common on my local Craigslist. I've been waiting for some to come up so I can do Turkish get-ups with them (by far my favorite kettlebell exercise and one of my favorites overall).  Still waiting.

I don't own very much equipment.  I used to work at a college and had free access to their gym.  The only equipment I have is a Century BOB XL, and my favorite piece of home gym equipment - the Total Gym XLS.  What can I say, I'm trying to be Chuck Norris up in here.  I've got to get a pipe and some 1" plates to add weight for a few exercises.


----------



## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> What if I don't agree with the rest of your post?  Are you trying to collect "likes"  ? I don't agree that the OP has to go out and buy kettlebells.  I was just saying I like doing bent over rows with kettlebells better than with dumbbells.  I prefer to do some exercises with barbells and dumbells over kettlebells, and vice versa.
> 
> If someone is looking for a single piece of equipment, buy a large and sturdy/well made duffle bag.  Fill it with rocks, dirt, or whatever else and use that.  If they're creative enough, they can do a ton of stuff with it.  A bit of a hassle to fill and empty as needed, but dirt cheap.  Around here, kettlebells are a little over $2 a pound.  So a pair of 20 lb kettlebells will cost over $80.
> 
> ...


plastic ones full of concrete are a lot cheaper and do the job just as well and they look bigger to passersby


----------



## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

Zombocalypse said:


> To the OP.
> 
> I would tell you that a gym membership in a gym with adjustable free-weights (barbells and dumbbells), a squat rack, a place to bench press and do pull-ups is *absolutely necessary* for strength development, but you specifically said that you can't, so here's my advice...
> 
> ...


nothing is an absolute necessity, they may make it easier or be more convenient, but serious strengh gains can be achieved using nothing but body weight and random heavy object.
nb I accept that serious body building needs weights, but that's not what we tm are taking about here


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> plastic ones full of concrete are a lot cheaper and do the job just as well and they look bigger to passersby


They're negligibly cheaper at my local stores.

I'm a cheap bastard by nature.  The only ones I've truly contemplated are the adjustable ones where you can add and remove small plates so I don't need a rack full of them nor have unused ones once I surpass the weight.  But they typically don't weigh enough and seem like they'd fall apart too easily.

And all this for one exercise I'd genuinely do a lot of with them - Turkish get-ups.  And honestly, it's been a few years since I've done them, so I don't know how much to start with.  And once I get back into the groove of doing them, I'll probably outgrow the weight within a few weeks and need the next size up.  The old ones will collect dust.

I can effectively get my Chuck Norris on with my Total Gym.


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## jobo (Jul 12, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> They're negligibly cheaper at my local stores.
> 
> I'm a cheap bastard by nature.  The only ones I've truly contemplated are the adjustable ones where you can add and remove small plates so I don't need a rack full of them nor have unused ones once I surpass the weight.  But they typically don't weigh enough and seem like they'd fall apart too easily.
> 
> ...


if that's all you want it for and being cheap( like myself) then i think a bucket of gravel will do the job.

I find that three kettle bells of different weights is good for most things, then you can mess about with the,angle you hold them at , the duration and the tempo, to get the most use out of them, before you buy a new heavier one . You can always find a training use for the now unused lighter one,hook them on your foot for letting raises or tie them to your belt for pull up or just put them in a rucksack for push ups and or run/ jump about with them or shot put them. if not they make an excellent door stop or paper weight


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## JR 137 (Jul 12, 2017)

jobo said:


> if that's all you want it for and being cheap( like myself) then i think a bucket of gravel will do the job.
> 
> I find that three kettle bells of different weights is good for most things, then you can mess about with the,angle you hold them at , the duration and the tempo, to get the most use out of them, before you buy a new heavier one . You can always find a training use for the now unused lighter one,hook them on your foot for letting raises or tie them to your belt for pull up or just put them in a rucksack for push ups and or run/ jump about with them or shot put them. if not they make an excellent door stop or paper weight


A bucket of gravel's not a bad idea at all.  I've got a bunch of buckets in different sizes, and some pretty heavy rocks in my yard.  I've got to see how much weight the bucket would hold.  The last thing I need is for the handle to fall off and a bunch of rocks hit me in the face.  Not that I'm pretty by any means.

Thanks for the idea.


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