# A kata for self defense



## DaveB (Jul 17, 2015)

If you had to choose one kata to teach self defense/fighting what would it be and what principles would you use from the kata?


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 17, 2015)

Chon Ji - it is the most solid basic foundation:
Block, counter (no first attack)
Turning to multiple directions/opponents
Weight forward, back
Balance
Rhythm
Distancing - moving forward to strike after blocking
Moving forward, back
Blocks can be adapted into grabs to control/pull on/throw

Well, someone had to go first....

PLEASE DISREGARD - in my eagerness I overlooked the slightly fundamental fact this is a Japanese art thread - sorry!


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## DaveB (Jul 17, 2015)

Oldbear343 said:


> Chon Ji - it is the most solid basic foundation:
> Block, counter (no first attack)
> Turning to multiple directions/opponents
> Weight forward, back
> ...



All arts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. TKD is a karate off-shoot anyway. 

One question, what use would you have for rhythm in self defense?


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## Zero (Jul 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> All arts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. TKD is a karate off-shoot anyway.
> 
> One question, what use would you have for rhythm in self defense?



I should really let Oldbear respond as is his point I guess.

But this is a good question with respect to a self defence context, I guess I kind of agree with your query/point, but I'm throwing in my two cents anyway.

From my experience, rhythm and cadence can be a key skill towards winning a fight, be it a sanctioned tournament or on the street.  To have deceptive rhythm that disrupts your opponent's attack or deceives them as to your offensive moves and the timing of your strikes and counters is a high level and valuable skill.  Sometimes people have this just naturally but this generally only comes to most, if at all, after a lot of fight time, sparring and training.

However, SD can be quite different to a fight where you have "squared off" against another.  There is often not the time, opportunity or the desire/need to engage in anything other than a brutal and fast action/re-action, rather than a more drawn out exchange of blows or moves including feints, etc.
So unless the attack morphs into something more prolonged beyond the initial assault and response, so that it resembles more of a "fight" due to a certain stalemate between the assailant and intended "victim", there may not necessarily be the environment for rhythm applying.

But that is not to say given a certain SD situation, the use of rhythm could not apply, and from the get-go, and be of an advantage.  It's just in my view and from limited but real SD experience that you want an altercation to be ended very quickly and to be on your way, rather than being drawn into a situation where rhythm, etc and the finer skills of the fight need apply.


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## Zero (Jul 17, 2015)

Oldbear343 said:


> Well, someone had to go first....
> 
> PLEASE DISREGARD - in my eagerness I overlooked the slightly fundamental fact this is a Japanese art thread - sorry!



Don't worry, am glad you did.  There's an unspoken, uneasy, underlying underbelly to MT regarding this whole karate sub-forum coming under the "Japanese" section, it's well know that without Okinawa (and China before that) that there _is no_ karate.  Simply a _kara do_...


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## Jacky Zuki (Jul 17, 2015)

For me it would be Naifanchi for its sideways progression. I have been attacked twice on the street and both times it has been at a cashpoint/ATM where being able to defend against an attack from the side saved me from being stuck halfway around the world without a penny.


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## DaveB (Jul 17, 2015)

So what principles would you cover?


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## Jacky Zuki (Jul 17, 2015)

Blocking and punching to the side, cross-stepping out of danger or into range while guarding against someone attacking from under your arm, grabs and takedowns while facing a wall, creating enough space to grab your card, throw some cash into the air and leg it. The fact that ATMs have cameras built in almost guarantees an attack from the side rather than from behind, it is also easier to punch someone in the kidneys and grab the card and cash from the side than reaching around them. Its one of those weird situations where something highly specialized gains a new application due to modern living.


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 17, 2015)

Jacky Zuki said:


> For me it would be Naifanchi for its sideways progression. I have been attacked twice on the street and both times it has been at a cashpoint/ATM where being able to defend against an attack from the side saved me from being stuck halfway around the world without a penny.


Good point ☺


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> All arts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. TKD is a karate off-shoot anyway.
> 
> One question, what use would you have for rhythm in self defense?


To make the counter follow smoothly from the block, and also to promote repeated follow-up Strikes (as in wing chun)....


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 17, 2015)

Zero said:


> Don't worry, am glad you did.  There's an unspoken, uneasy, underlying underbelly to MT regarding this whole karate sub-forum coming under the "Japanese" section, it's well know that without Okinawa (and China before that) that there _is no_ karate.  Simply a _kara do_...


Thanks - if I were building a new syllabus (and who hasn't played around with that?!), I would certainly include tkd and goju kata....


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 17, 2015)

Zero said:


> I should really let Oldbear respond as is his point I guess.
> 
> But this is a good question with respect to a self defence context, I guess I kind of agree with your query/point, but I'm throwing in my two cents anyway.
> 
> ...


Yes, broken rhythm can be interesting, similar to feinting in boxing, dropping one shoulder etc, but as you rightly say, in real-time SD there is often little time in my experience for being creative!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> If you had to choose one kata to teach self defense/fighting what would it be and what principles would you use from the kata?





DaveB said:


> All arts are welcome as far as I'm concerned.


Don't choose form (Kata) that were created by others, create that form (Kata) all by yourself. This way you will have all the freedom that you need.

The form (Kata) is like a book. No matter how many books that you have read through your life time, soon or later you will need to write your own book. Otherwise, you will be like just a copy machine, no more and no less. Even the best copy machine, the quality will get worse and worse.

Try to use your knowledge to create. Here is an example:


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## tigercrane (Jul 17, 2015)

I just joined this forum and immediately saw this thread. You raise an interesting question. Kung Fu Wang already stated above that the more you practice Kata or Form, the more you learn to liberate yourself from its limitations. The Kata (form) becomes you and your art (whatever this may be) becomes you and molds to you.

Another aspect of it is that a Kata (form) is absolutely nothing but an empty shell without application (Bunkai - japanese).

Application may vary depending on objective and is not as rigid as Kata itself. This means that you learn to use block as attack or instead of punch you use an open hand.

Kata is not meant to be changed. Application is and should be when needed.

Lastly, no matter what Kata you think of as your favorite, it will not help you in self-defense situation if you can't deliver a powerful strike to stop the offender.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 17, 2015)

This guy used

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- double under hooks,
- knee strike,
- outer hook,

and took his opponent down twice within 15 seconds. You can't find this combo in any Chinese form or Japanese Kata. It's 100% "self-created" sequence and it works.


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## DaveB (Jul 17, 2015)

tigercrane said:


> I just joined this forum and immediately saw this thread. You raise an interesting question. Kung Fu Wang already stated above that the more you practice Kata or Form, the more you learn to liberate yourself from its limitations. The Kata (form) becomes you and your art (whatever this may be) becomes you and molds to you.
> 
> Another aspect of it is that a Kata (form) is absolutely nothing but an empty shell without application (Bunkai - japanese).
> 
> ...





Kung Fu Wang said:


> This guy used
> 
> - roundhouse kick,
> - side kick,
> ...



Gentlemen, both these posts are interesting and worthy of their own threads, but they are some way off the topic at hand. 

The point was to see what kind of self defense principles people attribute to specific kata. 

The use of forms or when/how we transend them is a bit beyond the scope.


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> Gentlemen, both these posts are interesting and worthy of their own threads, but they are some way off the topic at hand.
> 
> The point was to see what kind of self defense principles people attribute to specific kata.
> 
> The use of forms or when/how we transend them is a bit beyond the scope.


Well said ☺


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## tigercrane (Jul 17, 2015)

To stay on topic, I'd say that Seisan kata is amongst my favorite ones. It uses both kicks and strong punches. I also like the linear defense - offense it has. It is simple and has good application such as groin strike 

For tight spaces I'd go with Naihanchi hands down.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> The point was to see what kind of self defense principles people attribute to specific kata.


Different MA systems have different principles.

- Taiji has 13 principles,
- praying mantis has 20 principles (8 hard 12 soft principles),
- Zimen has 18 principles,
- long fist has 8 principles,
- Shuai Chiao has 60 principles,
- ...

Also the striking art uses different set of principles that's used in the grappling art.

If you have cross trained, you will have mixed principles from different MA systems. When you use principles from any particular form/kata, you are limited by the principles used in that particular MA system. When you create your own form/Kata, you can add in principles from different MA systems.

For example, you can add

- Taiji Peng principle,
- prating mantis Diao principle,
- Zimen sticky principle,
- long fist dodging principle
- Shuai Chiao tearing principle
- ...

into the form that you have created. This way, you are free and you are not restricted by any MA system. You are the master. Your form/kata is only your slave.


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## K-man (Jul 18, 2015)

First up, can I say I disagree totally with anyone who suggests you make up your own kata. Why would you bother when there are dozens of kata available developed by masters over decades? 

For me, I like seyunchin. It has a natural flow to it with high strikes followed by low strikes, elbows to the ribs, arm bars etc, etc. But really, it doesn't matter. Just pick a kata you like and study it.


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## DaveB (Jul 18, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Different MA systems have different principles.
> 
> - Taiji has 13 principles,
> - praying mantis has 20 principles (8 hard 12 soft principles),
> ...



As I said, a topic worthy of discussion that really requires it's own discussion:

Create Your Own Kata MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Now there's more need to derail this one.


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 18, 2015)

K-man said:


> First up, can I say I disagree totally with anyone who suggests you make up your own kata. Why would you bother when there are dozens of kata available developed by masters over decades?
> 
> For me, I like seyunchin. It has a natural flow to it with high strikes followed by low strikes, elbows to the ribs, arm bars etc, etc. But really, it doesn't matter. Just pick a kata you like and study it.


Yes, seyunchin is a very nice kata


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## DaveB (Jul 18, 2015)

K-man said:


> For me, I like seyunchin. It has a natural flow to it with high strikes followed by low strikes, elbows to the ribs, arm bars etc, etc. But really, it doesn't matter. Just pick a kata you like and study it.



As I mentioned earlier, the question was less about advice and more a point of discussion/comparison. 

With that in mind, what principles do you find self defense relevant in Seyunchin?


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## K-man (Jul 18, 2015)

DaveB said:


> As I mentioned earlier, the question was less about advice and more a point of discussion/comparison.
> 
> With that in mind, what principles do you find self defense relevant in Seyunchin?


Let me say at the outset, kata or even martial arts in general have little to do with self defence. Self defence is mostly about not fighting  , but for the sake of the discussion we'll assume it has all turned down and getting nasty.

Principles? Hmm! I'm not sure that there are any principles in the kata itself. The principles are in the style. Keeping weight low, entering and controlling, use of the body to overcome a larger opponent, attacking vulnerable (vital) points, etc. What I like about Seyunchin is the flow of techniques. From a fighting perspective there are many entry points into the bunkai from either side. I like the idea of striking high to get the hand up then attacking the groin to get the hand down before attacking the neck or temple. I love the side elbow strikes to the ribs leading into the arm bars. The elbow destruction is a nice touch from a simple gross motor action that is typical of this kata, practical, not flashy. The violent movement as you pull your attacker from one side to the other is very disorienting for him allowing for additional strikes.

As well as a great kata bunkai, Seyunchin also has some really good oyo bunkai. Escapes from grabs and holds, takedowns utilising transitions between stances ... just about a tool for every situation.


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## DaveB (Jul 18, 2015)

K-man said:


> Principles? Hmm! I'm not sure that there are any principles in the kata itself. The principles are in the style. Keeping weight low, entering and controlling, use of the body to overcome a larger opponent, attacking vulnerable (vital) points, etc. What I like about Seyunchin is the flow of techniques. From a fighting perspective there are many entry points into the bunkai from either side. I like the idea of striking high to get the hand up then attacking the groin to get the hand down before attacking the neck or temple...



The way I have come to see things is that Principles are the rules that sit behind a sequence like this. Here you are striking to the undefended zone. With that rule to guide you there is no need to be limited to the kata and you can practice the same concept with any combination of strikes.

Taken a step deeper you are creating openings by leading the opponent's guard. Again once you know that this is why the kata sequence is effective you can get in the ring with an opponent and try to use different techniques to achieve the same goal. Right hook to the ribs, again to the head then knee to to the groin follows the same guiding rule. 

There are mechanical principles as well that guide how you move and generate power, like the weight sinking you mentioned, and principles of overarching strategy that determine the path to victory once confrontation has begun.

These three types of principle, (mechanical, tactical and strategic) taken together define a fighting style. 

Kata means example and so the forms are examples of the style. The techniques and sequences can't be the totality because the potential situations one can encounter are infinite. Instead we have guiding rules that adapt to the situation. 

All types of principle should be present to some degree in each of your art's kata. Though some forms like Sanchin focus much more on the mechanical than the strategy.


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## DaveB (Jul 18, 2015)

That being said,  not everyone believes the same. Which is part of why I asked.


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## tigercrane (Jul 19, 2015)

DaveB said:


> The way I have come to see things is that Principles are the rules that sit behind a sequence like this. Here you are striking to the undefended zone. With that rule to guide you there is no need to be limited to the kata and you can practice the same concept with any combination of strikes.
> 
> Taken a step deeper you are creating openings by leading the opponent's guard. Again once you know that this is why the kata sequence is effective you can get in the ring with an opponent and try to use different techniques to achieve the same goal. Right hook to the ribs, again to the head then knee to to the groin follows the same guiding rule.
> 
> ...



I think Sanchin is a very special Kata. To me Sanchin means developing proper breathing and Ki for channeling it to the focal point of strike. The type of isometric workout it offers is simply amazing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 19, 2015)

K-man said:


> Principles? Hmm! I'm not sure that there are any principles in the kata itself.


The forms/Katas that you have learned may not contain all the "principles" that you want to train.

For example, The "principle" used to counter:

- "hook punch" is "偏(Pian) – head circling" by dodging your head under your opponent's hook punch.






- "foot sweep" is "跪 (Gui) - knee bending" by bending your knee and let the sweeping leg to pass under it.






- "single leg" is "撳(Qin) - pressing" by pressing your opponent's head down to the ground.


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## DaveB (Jul 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The forms/Katas that you have learned may not contain all the "principles" that you want to train.
> 
> For example, The "principle" used to counter:
> 
> ...



Those aren't principles, they are techniques. If the whole principle is missing it means either your art is incomplete or that it has other means of dealing with the situation. 

If the principles are there but the techniques aren't, or the principle is missing then sticking a youtube drill into a home made form is a poor second to finding a school that incorporates what you are looking for. 

This is because by just hijacking techniques you miss all the linked strategy and tactics taught in their home system. You risk compromising the mechanics of the art you are trying to fix by adding incompatible techniques. 

For example, the southern kungfu I've trained doesn't really weave like the boxing you mentioned. There are good tactical reasons for not doing so. So while I could use the boxing weave, my body might be set up wrong because of the other tactics I was applying and so I end up worse off.


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## K-man (Jul 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The forms/Katas that you have learned may not contain all the "principles" that you want to train.


As *DaveB* said, you're discussing techniques and you are using them in isolation. Now I have no idea how you guys train your kata but this is a karate thread and you are nowhere near what we do. (I am assuming from your name you train KF but you don't list your art on your profile.)



Kung  Fu Wang said:


> For example, The "principle" used to counter:
> 
> - "hook punch" is "偏(Pian) – head circling" by dodging your head under your opponent's hook punch.


Kata for us are fighting systems. As such you can't be 'dodging under a punch' because that would be assuming a punch was coming which is choreography. Kata is giving you the means to enter and engage, not stand back trading punches.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> - "foot sweep" is "跪 (Gui) - knee bending" by bending your knee and let the sweeping leg to pass under it.


Why would anyone be in that stance so someone could sweep? No one fights from that stance in the real world.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> - "single leg" is "撳(Qin) - pressing" by pressing your opponent's head down to the ground.


I think you have no idea of how kata moves from one technique to the next, especially when a technique has failed. You are taking techniques in isolation. You don't need any kata to do that.


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## Zero (Jul 20, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This guy used
> 
> - roundhouse kick,
> - side kick,
> ...


I don't want to take this off the Op's topic anymore than it already has but, oh boy...  Kata was never intended as a stringent straight-jacketed sequence you have to work your way through when you find yourself in a fight..."wait a minute, the move I want is in kata 3, just let me work through kata 1 and 2 and I'll get to it, don't attack with your follow up until then..."

And even if you are not karate based but in/from a Chinese system, well from my experience it's exactly the same...so not sure why you are saying it like this.


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## Buka (Jul 20, 2015)

The first vid Kung Fu Wang posted is not technique, it's a main principle of footwork and evasion in fighting and/or self defense. 

I'm imagine that same principle can be found in some katas.


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## DaveB (Jul 20, 2015)

Buka said:


> The first vid Kung Fu Wang posted is not technique, it's a main principle of footwork and evasion in fighting and/or self defense.
> 
> I'm imagine that same principle can be found in some katas.



Either way, it's fine to bolt on techniques and ideas from other places, but to learn them you have to train in the root art anyway. 

Boxing's kata equivalent is shadow boxing. Why bother training boxing to learn to weave, just to make a kata with weaving when to learn it I'd have practiced the relevant in art training method and have that under my belt anyway?

Weaving is rare in kata because karate links from southern Chinese fighting culture that mixes lots of standing grappling/trapping etc. So disrupting your balance by dipping the head has greater risks than in a boxing ring. 

Bolting on weaving moves requires modifying or abandoning bits of the systems presented in the kata.

Not many fight using the principles in the kata though.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 20, 2015)

try taking your favorite kata and doing it in reverse. Has the meaning of the move your doing changed?  Do new applications of the move happen because the move that you do previously  is now changed?


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## Tez3 (Jul 20, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> try taking your favorite kata and doing it in reverse. Has the meaning of the move your doing changed?  Do new applications of the move happen because the move that you do previously  is now changed?




Good grief, it's hard enough doing it the proper way!


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## K-man (Jul 20, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Good grief, it's hard enough doing it the proper way!


We used to do the reverse of the kata, as a mental exercise. Now that I have some semblance of understanding kata I feel it was a total waste of time. Certainly the reverse kata is as valid as the original but if you are goining to use it that way, as a fighting system, you are going to have to train it over and over, like the original. As you say, it's hard enough even learning a kata one way.


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## Chrisoro (Jul 22, 2015)

Sometimes I do the whole Taegeuk series of poomsae consecutively as a warm up.

As this series of forms, unlike most traditional kata(with the exeption of some such as the Pinan/Heian series), is meant to introduce the fundamentals of Taekwondo gradually instead of each form being a fighting system in itself(like traditional chinese styles, or the original okinawan katas, including the one the Pinan/Heian-series was based on), I feel the Taegeuk series as a whole should be thought of in a similar way. That is, as a single combat system.

Together, the eight taegeuk forms (from a pure technichal standpoint) includes most of what should be included into a self defense system based on striking, including cross and jab, uppercut, hammerfist, backfist, knifehand strikes, elbow strikes, grabs to head and clothing to limit mobility/reinforce strikes, kneestrikes, front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, cresent kick, jumping and double kick, several guards and stances, various combos, and several different blocks to defend from strikes from most angles.

The only thing I regulary use in standup sparring (when not including takedowns and sweeps) that is not present in the Taegeuk series is good footwork, head movement, pushkick, hooks, spinning back kick and spinning hook kick. But as a repository of techniques, it is quite comprehensive.


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## Paul_D (Jul 24, 2015)

For me it woudl be Naihanchi 

Naihanchi - Karate s Most Deadly Kata Iain Abernethy


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> For me it woudl be Naihanchi
> 
> Naihanchi - Karate s Most Deadly Kata Iain Abernethy




I'm with you on that and for the same reasons!


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## dancingalone (Jul 24, 2015)

Naihanchi Shodan or Gekisai Dai Ni or Pinan Nidan.  Take your pick.  All are easy to learn, but have sufficient depth in them to represent years and years of study.  The purists will scoff at comparing the latter two to a classical form like Naihanchi #1, but I stray more and more from orthodoxy these days.

If you are prepared to teach a more methodical form, perhaps Seiunchin or a few rows of Tan Tui would be interesting.  (Goju purists would say Sanchin.)  

And I've always wonder what my karate would look like if I had only studied a single form like Rohai or Chinto.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2015)

dancingalone said:


> Naihanchi Shodan or Gekisai Dai Ni or Pinan Nidan.  Take your pick.  All are easy to learn, but have sufficient depth in them to represent years and years of study.  The purists will scoff at comparing the latter two to a classical form like Naihanchi #1, but I stray more and more from orthodoxy these days.
> 
> If you are prepared to teach a more methodical form, perhaps Seiunchin or a few rows of Tan Tui would be interesting.  (Goju purists would say Sanchin.)
> 
> And I've always wonder what my karate would look like if I had only studied a single form like Rohai or Chinto.



I would say any of the Wado Ryu Pinan series not just Nidan. 
I think you could quite happily just stick to them without going 'higher'.


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## DaveB (Jul 26, 2015)

But what principles would you treach from gekisai or pinan nidan to enable the student.


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## Tez3 (Jul 26, 2015)

DaveB said:


> But what principles would you treach from gekisai or pinan nidan to enable the student.




Who's that addressed to? I don't know gekisai so am thinking it can't be me!


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## dancingalone (Jul 26, 2015)

DaveB said:


> But what principles would you treach from gekisai or pinan nidan to enable the student.



Hmm, I did forget to answer the question fully, didn't I?  Well, I don't want to get into this too much.  I'm not in a place where I can write for very long about principles and harmonies and such, but... 

My own understanding of karate always involves getting offline from an attack and then connecting with the attacker and countering in some way.  Frequently at our beginner level of study, "connecting" means a rudimentary form of trapping the limb or grabbing the limb to set you up for the strike.  More advanced studies branch off into uprooting, throwing or locking, but I generally boil everything down into close range applications. 

Watch this video for an idea of what I teach from the Gekisai series.  It's not exactly the same as how we do things, but you can get a good picture of where I go with this, though more influenced as I am by aiki practices.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Aug 1, 2015)

If I am picking one to teach it would be Naihanchi Shodan. From my experience it is the most complete kata I know and is one of the easiest to dissect.


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## DaveB (Aug 1, 2015)

dancingalone said:


> Hmm, I did forget to answer the question fully, didn't I?  Well, I don't want to get into this too much.  I'm not in a place where I can write for very long about principles and harmonies and such, but...
> 
> My own understanding of karate always involves getting offline from an attack and then connecting with the attacker and countering in some way.  Frequently at our beginner level of study, "connecting" means a rudimentary form of trapping the limb or grabbing the limb to set you up for the strike.  More advanced studies branch off into uprooting, throwing or locking, but I generally boil everything down into close range applications.
> 
> Watch this video for an idea of what I teach from the Gekisai series.  It's not exactly the same as how we do things, but you can get a good picture of where I go with this, though more influenced as I am by aiki practices.


Thanks for expanding on your original post.

I like the direction of your applications as indicated by the video. It implies you use a core of striking techniques that are supported by control techniques as opposed to the other way around.



MatsumuraKarate said:


> If I am picking one to teach it would be Naihanchi Shodan. From my experience it is the most complete kata I know and is one of the easiest to dissect.



And what principles do you feel are applicable to self defence in Naihanchi?


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## MatsumuraKarate (Aug 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> Thanks for expanding on your original post.
> 
> I like the direction of your applications as indicated by the video. It implies you use a core of striking techniques that are supported by control techniques as opposed to the other way around.
> 
> ...


It teaches solid stances and proper body mechanics.


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## DaveB (Aug 1, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> It teaches solid stances and proper body mechanics.



Thanks.


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## Koshiki (Nov 3, 2015)

As much of a huge fan of Naihanchi as I am, I might be tempted to opt for Pion (Pinan) Nidan, although Godan would run a close second.

In my style Pinan Nidan is slightly different than I usually see it performed by others, but perhaps more than any other Kata I know most clearly emphasizes the need for each and every motion to be a potential fight-ender, but to also better your position and control of the situation so that, while striving for each motion to finish the fight, you are not relying on it. Specifically in the first sequence, performed in both directions, and the returning sequence "down the middle," the bit entailing the right arm scoop, front kick, left punch, scoop, front kick, punch, double forearm or equivalent in most styles.

Pinan Nidan might not have the nuance of some other kata, but that's part of it's appeal. A couple weeks ago I visited a school and was working with a teen who had clearly never studied application. All I gave him was advice about assuming the "chambered" hand had something in it and within a few minutes, he had taken that section I just described and basically fallen into more or less the same basic application I would have suggested, entailing a series of controls and strikes which "climb" into the opponent, bettering your control of them, affording strikes, and destroying their structure.

That's why I like Pinan Nidan. It's obvious and effective, and not very reliant on sensitivity or nuance. It's a great starter platform for self-defense.

---------------------------------------------------

On the topic of self-created forms. This is something I quite enjoy doing. I pretty much always have a kata I'm working on and practicing of my own creation. However, these aren't something I study, they aren't something I plan on remembering, and they certainly aren't something I would want to see immortalized in the canon of any style.

To me, it's a great way to reapply tactics, principles, and applications from my training. It helps me really firm up ideas found in the traditional kata. Also, sometimes, figuring out how I would represent an application or sequence in the context of my own kata gives me insight into ways to apply sequences from other kata. And it has the perq of being just a heckuva a lot of fun.

Plus, hace 20 años, when I'm the most famed Karateka in all the land and have just defeated 20 corrupt officials in a bar fight, and have swarms of eager young would-be disciples begging me for instruction, I'll be ready to encode my innovative and game-changing style in kata for the benefit of future generations.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 4, 2015)

DaveB said:


> If you had to choose one kata to teach self defense/fighting what would it be and what principles would you use from the kata?



Sorry, I cannot.  Each kata brings different tools and techniques into focus.  And every time I feel I have come to appreciate one kata over another, or to understand one better than another, new applications, new understanding, and new appreciation unfolds.  It's all one thing.


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## mixedup (Mar 16, 2016)

I'm gonna go with Saifa. Good things come in small packages.

If you subscribe with the theory that kata are replicated left and right, then throw away one half, (let's say the left half, for instance) then the whole right half of the kata is a non stop series of movements designed to incapacitate really quickly.

Except the opening sequence, which repeats once on the left and twice on the right, possibly because there are far more right handed people out there waiting to attack. Just do one!

If anyone has tried splitting a kata in half and joining up the bunkai how did it go? I've practised this hundreds of times and I can visualise the opponent right from the beginning, but have no willing training partner for bunkai - they all just want it to look gold-medal-perfect!


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## JR 137 (Mar 19, 2016)

mixedup said:


> I'm gonna go with Saifa. Good things come in small packages.
> 
> If you subscribe with the theory that kata are replicated left and right, then throw away one half, (let's say the left half, for instance) then the whole right half of the kata is a non stop series of movements designed to incapacitate really quickly.
> 
> ...



I love Saiha/Saifa.  IMO it's a short and brutally effective kata.  Very little straight forward movement (some systems do the opening sequence of elbow to backfist in kiba dachi in a straight line; we do it at 45 degrees); lots of angles, lateral movement and 180 degree turns.  Very few traditional punches and kicks.  Rather, it's elbows, backfists, hammer fists, sweeps, joint locks, etc.  Each sequence can be used on its own or transition into the next easily.  

Most of this can be said of any kata, but Saiha just makes so much sense to me. I can easily visualize an opponent and simple and direct bunkai that I feel would end an encounter very quickly.

For instance, an opponent grabs/pushes on you.  Step 45 degrees to their side, circular elbow strike to their jaw.  Keep/trap their arm (you're still at their side), drop your weight straight down into horse stance, pull their arm in and backfist to their nose that's coming at you.  Need more?  (Skip the 2 more repeats of that sequence) and step laterally left, sweep their legs out, break the elbow with that weird looking arm movement that people think is a low block and middle block at the same time, front kick to their groin, ribs, or whatever target that's calling your name.

I'd make a video and post it to make it easier to see, but I'm not YouTube savvy.


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## mixedup (Mar 19, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> weird looking arm movement that people think is a low block and middle block at the same time, front kick to their groin, ribs, or whatever target that's calling your name.



I'm with you here. Why does everyone insist that this is two blocks? To my eye it's a basic armbar. I'm not sure on the kick, I have wondered whether instead it's a setup for a throw, and the emphasis should be on the return of the leg, literally sweeping the attacker off his feet. He'll already be off balance from the armbar. 

I think I'll start a thread about it, I'd love to get other MA's opinion.


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## JR 137 (Mar 20, 2016)

mixedup said:


> I'm with you here. Why does everyone insist that this is two blocks? To my eye it's a basic armbar. I'm not sure on the kick, I have wondered whether instead it's a setup for a throw, and the emphasis should be on the return of the leg, literally sweeping the attacker off his feet. He'll already be off balance from the armbar.
> 
> I think I'll start a thread about it, I'd love to get other MA's opinion.



I've seen some systems throw the kick(s) from standing on one foot.  Seido Juku being a Kyokushin offshoot, we transition from backward leaning stance to cat stance when the kick is thrown.

My opinion is the kick is there if it's needed or can be used at the moment.  If there's an opening, use it.  If not, don't.  Or, it can be changed to a heel kick/stomp if the opponent is on the ground and there's an open target.


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## JR 137 (Mar 20, 2016)

mixedup said:


> I'm with you here. Why does everyone insist that this is two blocks? To my eye it's a basic armbar. I'm not sure on the kick, I have wondered whether instead it's a setup for a throw, and the emphasis should be on the return of the leg, literally sweeping the attacker off his feet. He'll already be off balance from the armbar.
> 
> I think I'll start a thread about it, I'd love to get other MA's opinion.



I should've added this to my previous post...

I've seen that "block" interpreted as a neck crank.  I think Iain Abernathy did it as such.  I think it was way too complicated.  I think could work that way, but I think it's not likely to work well.

I've also seen it used as a sticky hands bunkai.

I think I'm a bit too critical of a lot of the bunkai out there.  A lot of it seems too complex and over the top.  IMO, it shouldn't be more than 3-4 steps tops.

Iain Abernathy has some good bunkai, but it just gets to be a bit much.  George Dillman (even a broken clock is right twice a day) had some pretty good bunkai before he went off the deep end with his no touch knockouts.  At the end of his Advanced Pressure Point Fighting of Ryukyu Kempo book, he breaks down Naihanchi kata pretty well, just take his KOs in it with a grain of salt.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 20, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> that weird looking arm movement that people think is a low block and middle block at the same time,


If it's the one I'm thinking of then It could also be used to defend against  an attempted grab for a body slam when they grab with one arm under the groin and the other over the shoulder.


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## JR 137 (Mar 20, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> If it's the one I'm thinking of then It could also be used to defend against  an attempted grab for a body slam when they grab with one arm under the groin and the other over the shoulder.



The 10th count or so, depending on how you do it/break down the counts, if the step is 1, elbow is 2, and backfist in kiba dachi is 3, repeated 2 more times.

I can kind of visualize what you're saying with defending that.  I'll try to play around with it.  My old dojo had some open floor time and a steps rate open space where we could warm up while another class was going on.  A few of us (and our Sensei every now and then) would get together and mess around with bunkai.  Our Sensei would kind of watch out of the corner of his eye and give pointers every now and then, but for the most part he'd let us do our thing.  My current dojo is a part time one, so there's not a lot of time outside of class.  Gotta get back in the habit of messing around with bunkai again.

Another step I like in Saiha is the "high block," turn 180 degrees, stomp and hammer fist.  I interpret it as an elbow break or strike to the triceps, turn 180 degrees (while keeping the arm), hammer fist to the back of the head/neck or whatever is showing.  The knee going up can be a knee kick or to get more momentum, and the stomp can be used to the top of the foot or whatever else is there.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Apr 7, 2016)

DaveB said:


> If you had to choose one kata to teach self defense/fighting what would it be and what principles would you use from the kata?


 In kenpo anything from short form 3 up because those all use self defence techniques that are in the system and shows how to do them on both sides and flow from one to the other


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## KenpoDave (Apr 10, 2016)

Long 2. Mainly for the flow in Section 1 and the power generation taught for the reverse punch, step thru running punch, and the mid stride punch taught in Section 4.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 10, 2016)

K-man said:


> First up, can I say I disagree totally with anyone who suggests you make up your own kata. Why would you bother when there are dozens of kata available developed by masters over decades?
> 
> For me, I like seyunchin. It has a natural flow to it with high strikes followed by low strikes, elbows to the ribs, arm bars etc, etc. But really, it doesn't matter. Just pick a kata you like and study it.


That is limiting and true to a business model. LOL


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