# Non-martial training in martial arts



## AngryHobbit (Jan 3, 2018)

"She nodded thoughtfully, then poked the air, wrist bent and elbow out. I couldn't stand it, so I took it [the sword] from her, dropped slowly into a foil guard, lunged in high line, recovered - a move so graceful that big hairy men look good in it. It's why ballerinas study fencing." - Robert Heinlein, _Glory Road
_
Do fencing students take ballet, I wonder? Should they? One of the fellow contributors here shared a fantastically fun dancing video including capoera practitioners and samba/salsa dancers. It looked like really good time and they all kept up with each other very well.

Seriously speaking, we know being reasonably fit is helpful in training. It's not a panacea. It's not a guaranteed win. But it helps. It's nice to be able to fold up into a compact roll or not go "splat" after an overly enthusiastic shoulder through because you are agile enough to execute a proper side fall. It's nice when your joints don't creak and your muscles don't ache (or ache only slightly), when you try to kick anything above knee level. That is not to say people will never surprise you. The best high kicker I've ever known looked like Santa Claus, complete with the belly and the beard. He could twirl like a dervish and deliver head-level kicks as if his hip joints opened into another dimension. Belly or no belly, there was no question the man was a tremendously strong and skilled martial artist. I wish I had a chance to ask, what else he did for fitness.

When my doctors made it clear I either had to exercise 4-5 times a week or become disabled and addicted to pain medicine, I crafted my fitness schedule very carefully to be as comprehensive as possible and discovered a delightful side effect - all of it dovetails very nicely with my martial arts training. 

Monday - step. 50 minutes. High intensity cardio. Spending almost an hour constantly going up and down a level - even a level that is only 6-8" tall (a standard step without risers) - means ongoing balancing and being very aware where your weight is. Numerous kicks, leg curls, and knee lifts forward, sideways, and back strengthen lower back and the same muscles that help lift the leg in a kick.

Tuesday - vinyasa yoga. 60 minutes. High intensity core. Tons of balancing. Tons of stretching. Joint loosening. Coordination. Weight transition and awareness. Plus, you get to take a nap at the end as a reward for your efforts. 

Wednesday - strength training - 30 minutes, followed by zumba for 45 - 50 minutes. The strength training focuses on developing muscles I'll need during the next mud run - so, pulling myself up, lifting, pushing, etc. Zumba, of course, is high intensity cardio. Coordination, body memory, getting used to your arms and legs doing different things at the same time, and breaking yourself off the habit of looking at your feet. 

Thursday - aikido. 90 minutes. 

Friday - rest day. Still at least 15 minutes of stretching - have to do it or else I'll be stiff as a board the next day.

Sautrday - aikido. 90 minutes. Another hour of yoga afterward, if there is any juice left.

Sunday - another rest day. Stretching and often a lot of of walking around. Staying mobile as much as possible.
​Would love to hear what you do for fun outside the dojo that also comes in helpful at the dojo.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 3, 2018)

I personally dislike lifting weights, so I’ve never had long term success on any of the occasions when I tried to significantly work it in to my habits.  I do a moderate amount of pushups and sit-ups, enough to keep a reasonable amount of strength but not enough to make me stop doing it.

I love to run and swim, but life obligations have prevented it for a few years.

I enjoy archery, but rarely have time to go to the range and shoot.  So I use my bows as a stand-in for my strength training.  I have three recurve bows that I use, pulling at 50#, 74# and 110#.  I warm up on the lightest and work up to the heaviest, hitting a total of about 50-60 pulls on each side to keep the development even.  My first and second fingers on each hand are slightly oversized compared to the others, from pulling on the bowstring.  

This is how I work in strength training.   The archery works the arms, shoulders, back, and hands, and it really wears you out.  It is also convenient because I can do it while watching TV or otherwise hanging out with the family and I don’t need to schedule a separate time or location to do it.  If I fall away from the practice, then I need to work up to it again because you do lose the strength if you don’t use it regularly.

I realize this is still martial practice, but I think people overlook the usefulness of this kind of training.  In a similar fashion, I get useful strength training by training with realistic and heavy weaponry, like swords and spears and staffs.  If the weapon is realistic and solid and weighted appropriately, then it provides for a great workout.


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## wab25 (Jan 4, 2018)

I grew up on a farm, shoveling dirt and rocks, raking sticks and stacking brush. I got a ton of core strength and endurance from all the farm work. This helped out a lot with my martial arts. Now that I work a desk job... I really miss that core strength and endurance.

In Junior High school I started doing ballroom dance. I continued all the way through high school and college and then a few years of Lindyhop. ( I got to learn Lindyhop from Franky Manning personally...) From ballroom dancing I got to learn how to move correctly and on balance. I learned how to move my partner and how to feel where my partner was. You can feel where their weight is, where they are going, where each part of them is all from a touch. I learned how to lead and respond to how my partner moved. I learned awareness in a group... try leading a complicated movement pattern, with your partner, to the music, on a crowded dance floor, without tripping you, your partner or anyone else... To do that you must be aware of everyone around you and what their intent is. 

There is a lot you can learn in ballroom dance that directly applies to martial arts... but your partner may smell nicer. I learned more about how to blend with, and move another person from ballroom dancing than from any martial art.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 4, 2018)

wab25 said:


> I grew up on a farm, shoveling dirt and rocks, raking sticks and stacking brush. I got a ton of core strength and endurance from all the farm work. This helped out a lot with my martial arts. Now that I work a desk job... I really miss that core strength and endurance.
> 
> In Junior High school I started doing ballroom dance. I continued all the way through high school and college and then a few years of Lindyhop. ( I got to learn Lindyhop from Franky Manning personally...) From ballroom dancing I got to learn how to move correctly and on balance. I learned how to move my partner and how to feel where my partner was. You can feel where their weight is, where they are going, where each part of them is all from a touch. I learned how to lead and respond to how my partner moved. I learned awareness in a group... try leading a complicated movement pattern, with your partner, to the music, on a crowded dance floor, without tripping you, your partner or anyone else... To do that you must be aware of everyone around you and what their intent is.
> 
> There is a lot you can learn in ballroom dance that directly applies to martial arts... but your partner may smell nicer. I learned more about how to blend with, and move another person from ballroom dancing than from any martial art.


I love ballroom dancing! I danced on and off since I was six - classical ballroom, Latin ballroom, ballet. Wonderful stuff. I also spent five months out of every year between ages six and nineteen helping out around the dacha - digging, planting, weeding, picking the crops, watering, the works. It wasn't quite as big as a farm, but still - lots of work. And there is something to be said in favor of climbing trees to get the best apricots - develops your grip as well as arm and leg flexibility. Good for grappling.


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## jobo (Jan 5, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> "She nodded thoughtfully, then poked the air, wrist bent and elbow out. I couldn't stand it, so I took it [the sword] from her, dropped slowly into a foil guard, lunged in high line, recovered - a move so graceful that big hairy men look good in it. It's why ballerinas study fencing." - Robert Heinlein, _Glory Road
> _
> Do fencing students take ballet, I wonder? Should they? One of the fellow contributors here shared a fantastically fun dancing video including capoera practitioners and samba/salsa dancers. It looked like really good time and they all kept up with each other very well.
> 
> ...



that's an impressive work load, which says to me that at only two days rest a week, you are in danger of overdoing it , which slows down your progress! 

if i was you, id have at least one more rest day, specifically id give up the Saturday aikidio and go shopping and then come back to it Monday fully rested


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> that's an impressive work load, which says to me that at only two days rest a week, you are in danger of overdoing it , which slows down your progress!
> 
> if i was you, id have at least one more rest day, specifically id give up the Saturday aikidio and go shopping and then come back to it Monday fully rested


I agree - a good balance is essential. This is where I have to pick and choose. I do add an extra rest day occasionally. But I have to be careful how I do it. 

Here is why. I have a very rare skeletal defect since birth - my spine sits a bit higher than on a regular person. So, that makes it like a badly installed flag pole or fence post - wobbly. It cannot provide the same amount of support as it would, had it been normally position. What this means is - my core muscles and my back muscles have to be strong enough to pick up some of the slack. That is why my doctors and my physical therapists helped me design an exercise schedule to continuously strengthen and maintain my muscles. When I slack off for a few days, the results are immediate and rather disastrous - pain, lack of mobility, stiffness... the works. 

When I take an extra rest day, I still make a point to move around regularly and stretch, stretch, stretch. And maybe do a few core-focused yoga poses - like bird-dogs, planks, side planks, etc. Maybe a few kicks to loosen my hips. Stuff like that. Believe me, there are times I REALLY want to just be a slob - but when I think of what a hell it is to pay the following day, I get up and do something.


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## DaveB (Jan 5, 2018)

Before my back went, badminton. it's exactly like sparring.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Before my back went, badminton. it's exactly like sparring.


Any chance of physical therapy for your back? I am exaggerating only slightly when I say PE saved my life.


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## DaveB (Jan 5, 2018)

It's a lot better now, but not sure it will ever be up to badminton again


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## Headhunter (Jan 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Before my back went, badminton. it's exactly like sparring.


Minus the risk of getting kicked in the head lol


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## JR 137 (Jan 5, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Minus the risk of getting kicked in the head lol


Yeah, but a shuttlecock to the eye is no laughing matter.

Well, saying shuttlecock to the eye is a laughing matter


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## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2018)

Ah that's a cool story to hear AngryHobbit . Amazing the effect moving the body can have!

Myself along with karate training, I've lifted weights for hmm maybe 10-12 years now? And absolutely love it.. Definitely complements karate, except any imbalances you develop, so I definitely am hoping to work on incorporating more flexibility and mobility work hehe..

Also rollerblade occasionally too, just round the streets for fun and also in the 'aggressive' sense (jumps, spins, grinds etc). Reeeeally works the adductors, quads and glutes immensely haha, and is a ton of fun...


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## 666 (Jan 8, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I personally dislike lifting weights, so I’ve never had long term success on any of the occasions when I tried to significantly work it in to my habits. I do a moderate amount of pushups and sit-ups, enough to keep a reasonable amount of strength but not enough to make me stop doing it.


Well if you dislike lifting weights you still could go the calisthenics route, working on harder variations like the one arm push up. But I highly suggest you put in some type of rowing movement to prevent imbalances, at least put in some Australian pull ups.


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## jobo (Jan 8, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> I agree - a good balance is essential. This is where I have to pick and choose. I do add an extra rest day occasionally. But I have to be careful how I do it.
> 
> Here is why. I have a very rare skeletal defect since birth - my spine sits a bit higher than on a regular person. So, that makes it like a badly installed flag pole or fence post - wobbly. It cannot provide the same amount of support as it would, had it been normally position. What this means is - my core muscles and my back muscles have to be strong enough to pick up some of the slack. That is why my doctors and my physical therapists helped me design an exercise schedule to continuously strengthen and maintain my muscles. When I slack off for a few days, the results are immediate and rather disastrous - pain, lack of mobility, stiffness... the works.
> 
> When I take an extra rest day, I still make a point to move around regularly and stretch, stretch, stretch. And maybe do a few core-focused yoga poses - like bird-dogs, planks, side planks, etc. Maybe a few kicks to loosen my hips. Stuff like that. Believe me, there are times I REALLY want to just be a slob - but when I think of what a hell it is to pay the following day, I get up and do something.


well if you are doing it under medical supervision then I'm not going to try and interfere,

but for general consideration is the old adage, you can work out hard or you can work out often, but you cant do both.

i have not so similar issue, which is a congenital back problem, i say its congenital as both my dad did and my sister does suffer from t he same problem.?

After decades of problems over. Cured it, by regular gentle ish strengthening and stretching exercises.

of  these. I consider that my posture exercises rather than my more extreme strengthening exercise have given the most benefit . Simply walking around consciously maintain good posture has strengthens the muscles considerably.

that being the case i can do my work out whilst doing almost anything, shopping, walking the dog even sitting and watching telly all count as exercise, i then make sure that i also build in Some cardio flexability and more general strength xcersis, so i always jogg up the,stairs, do flex whilst waiting for a kettle or a bus, carry heavy bags home from the,shop etal, but with out it taking over my life or me becoming obsessive, which I'm prone to do


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2018)

666 said:


> Well if you dislike lifting weights you still could go the calisthenics route, working on harder variations like the one arm push up. But I highly suggest you put in some type of rowing movement to prevent imbalances, at least put in some Australian pull ups.


I would be willing to bet archery handles the imbalance you're talking about, with the drawing motion.


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## 666 (Jan 8, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I would be willing to bet archery handles the imbalance you're talking about, with the drawing motion.


Depends.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2018)

666 said:


> Depends.


How so? Either the draw does exercise those muscle groups or it doesn't.


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## 666 (Jan 8, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> How so? Either the draw does exercise those muscle groups or it doesn't.


I'll make you an example.
Does a 5 pound dumbbell row hit your rhomboids, rear delts etc? Yes, technically yes.
But will 5 pounds be enough if you bench press like 300 pounds. No.
See?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2018)

666 said:


> I'll make you an example.
> Does a 5 pound dumbbell row hit your rhomboids, rear delts etc? Yes, technically yes.
> But will 5 pounds be enough if you bench press like 300 pounds. No.
> See?


Do I need to bench press 300 pounds?


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## jobo (Jan 8, 2018)

666 said:


> I'll make you an example.
> Does a 5 pound dumbbell row hit your rhomboids, rear delts etc? Yes, technically yes.
> But will 5 pounds be enough if you bench press like 300 pounds. No.
> See?


will 5 lbs be ENOUGH for what?


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## 666 (Jan 8, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Do I need to bench press 300 pounds?


No, that's why I said example?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2018)

666 said:


> No, that's why I said example?


Ok, I guess I read you comment as implying that I should be striving to be able to bench press 300 pounds.  If that wasn’t your intended message, then my mistake.


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## 666 (Jan 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> will 5 lbs be ENOUGH for what?


Enough to counterbalance an overdeveloped/overly strong chest compared to your back?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2018)

666 said:


> Well if you dislike lifting weights you still could go the calisthenics route, working on harder variations like the one arm push up. But I highly suggest you put in some type of rowing movement to prevent imbalances, at least put in some Australian pull ups.


The archery engages a whole bunch of muscle groups throughout the back, shoulders, chest, and arms, and because I draw equally on both left and right sides, I am confident that there is a good deal of balance.

In addition, I practice my other weaponry on both sides as well, specifically for that purpose.  Sword and saber done both left- and right-handed, spear and staff done on both sides, etc.

My interest in that aspect of training is in developing and maintaining reasonable fitness.  I do not have any interest in sculpting and then maintaining a perfect physique.


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## 666 (Jan 8, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I do not have any interest in sculpting and then maintaining a perfect physique.


Yeah, that's probably the best.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2018)

666 said:


> Yeah, that's probably the best.


The time and energy required to do that is never-ending.  Not my priority.


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## 666 (Jan 8, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> The time and energy required to do that is never-ending. Not my priority.


Yes sir, we all die at the end.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 8, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Would love to hear what you do for fun outside the dojo that also comes in helpful at the dojo.



Yoga
Total Gym
and just started an aerobics workout that uses light weights
Drinking tea

Use to weight lift, but I am old and no longer that into lifting heavy weights these days


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## jobo (Jan 8, 2018)

666 said:


> Enough to counterbalance an overdeveloped/overly strong chest compared to your back?


it depends what you do with it, 5 lbs may be a bit light, but say 15lbs is plenty to cause. Muscle growth strengh increase


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Minus the risk of getting kicked in the head lol


Depends what rules you play under...


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 8, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yoga
> Total Gym
> and just started an aerobics workout that uses light weights
> Drinking tea
> ...


Isn't yoga fantastic? That is some SERIOUS work. People don't believe me, but I often sweat more in yoga than in my high intensity cardio classes.


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## Headhunter (Jan 8, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Isn't yoga fantastic? That is some SERIOUS work. People don't believe me, but I often sweat more in yoga than in my high intensity cardio classes.


Hey look around the forum you'll see a thread of a yoga teacher beating her karate brown belt son in a sparring match lol


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## jobo (Jan 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Hey look around the forum you'll see a thread of a yoga teacher beating her karate brown belt son in a sparring match lol


the son was about 12, the average old lady could fend him off


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> the son was about 12, the average old lady could fend him off


Hey, don't spoil the story!


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> the son was about 12, the average old lady could fend him off


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> the son was about 12, the average old lady could fend him off


Jokes aside, it's against my religion to underestimate anyone - be it a 12-year old or a yoga instructor. My yoga instructor could definitely unleash a can of whoopa***. She is a former dancer and competitive athlete. Used to run marathons for fun - including Miami marathon in August. In additional to teaching yoga and functional fitness, she does mountain biking with her husband - also for fun. So, with a bit of training, I wouldn't put it past her to fold an assailant into a proper pretzel pose.


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## jobo (Jan 9, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Jokes aside, it's against my religion to underestimate anyone - be it a 12-year old or a yoga instructor. My yoga instructor could definitely unleash a can of whoopa***. She is a former dancer and competitive athlete. Used to run marathons for fun - including Miami marathon in August. In additional to teaching yoga and functional fitness, she does mountain biking with her husband - also for fun. So, with a bit of training, I wouldn't put it past her to fold an assailant into a proper pretzel pose.


well yes, fitness is a much over looked( on here) atributes to defence. A cross of yoga , dancing,mountain biking and running will make anyone a force to be reckoned with


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## _Simon_ (Feb 1, 2018)

Have started incorporating gentle yoga in the mornings, just sun salutation, some cat-cow and extended child's pose, just to help with stretching, mobility, and relaxation to help with my pelvic pain stuff as it's flaring up again... Reeeeally going through it slowly and breathing deeply throughout, gonna see how it goes.

That and have started the Karate Flexibility and Mobility program from sensei Jesse Enkamp, just twice a week, doing 3x locomotion and stationary exercises and progressing to the next three each week


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 1, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Have started incorporating gentle yoga in the mornings, just sun salutation, some cat-cow and extended child's pose, just to help with stretching, mobility, and relaxation to help with my pelvic pain stuff as it's flaring up again... Reeeeally going through it slowly and breathing deeply throughout, gonna see how it goes.
> 
> That and have started the Karate Flexibility and Mobility program from sensei Jesse Enkamp, just twice a week, doing 3x locomotion and stationary exercises and progressing to the next three each week


When you feel up to it, try working in some bird-dogs into your routine - the best time is usually right after the cat-cows. They are great for core and for leveling out your hips.


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## Hanshi (Feb 1, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> When you feel up to it, try working in some bird-dogs into your routine - the best time is usually right after the cat-cows. They are great for core and for leveling out your hips.





Running was always my thing along with calisthenics.  Weights aren't my thing, either.


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## _Simon_ (Feb 1, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> When you feel up to it, try working in some bird-dogs into your routine - the best time is usually right after the cat-cows. They are great for core and for leveling out your hips.


Thanks AH appreciate it, am not 100% sure if it would be best for me unfortunately, that tends to work the core and strengthen it whereas I need the opposite and need to relax it, pelvic muscles as well as abdominal and deep core muscles, they're all too tight, so been really gently doing movements and syncing them with deep diaphragm breathing.  Although they're not a superintense core exercise and seem gentler so i may give it a go


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 1, 2018)

Hanshi said:


> Running was always my thing along with calisthenics.  Weights aren't my thing, either.


I started strength training to put in a more-than-pathetic performance at mud runs.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 1, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks AH appreciate it, am not 100% sure if it would be best for me unfortunately, that tends to work the core and strengthen it whereas I need the opposite and need to relax it, pelvic muscles as well as abdominal and deep core muscles, they're all too tight, so been really gently doing movements and syncing them with deep diaphragm breathing.  Although they're not a superintense core exercise and seem gentler so i may give it a go


Ah... true enough. I have to work my core constantly because my spine is messed up and can't do all the work. I've been practicing yoga for almost three years now, and I am STILL learning to relax.


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## _Simon_ (Feb 1, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Ah... true enough. I have to work my core constantly because my spine is messed up and can't do all the work. I've been practicing yoga for almost three years now, and I am STILL learning to relax.


Ah wow fair enough.. Yeah it's such a strange thought when we're far too tense and unable to relax, when relaxing involves literally doing nothing haha... It's a process for me for sure... and cos of my pelvic issues I've never been so devoted to relaxation until now..


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## donald1 (Feb 1, 2018)

outside the dojo i prefer jogging. wake up in the morning eat breakfast, stretch, run 5 miles, and finally 30 minutes of weight lifting. atleast thats how i like starting the morning



Flying Crane said:


> Do I need to bench press 300 pounds?


certainly something to brag about and show off with friends.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

donald1 said:


> outside the dojo i prefer jogging. wake up in the morning eat breakfast, stretch, run 5 miles, and finally 30 minutes of weight lifting. atleast thats how i like starting the morning
> 
> 
> certainly something to brag about and show off with friends.


I miss long runs. Stay with it.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

donald1 said:


> outside the dojo i prefer jogging. wake up in the morning eat breakfast, stretch, run 5 miles, and finally 30 minutes of weight lifting. atleast thats how i like starting the morning.


I am a LOUSY runner, but I have tremendous respect for people who are not. 5 miles first thing in the morning - that's awesome. What do you have for breakfast and how do you make sure it doesn't sit like a horseshoe at the bottom of your stomach when you jog?


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks AH appreciate it, am not 100% sure if it would be best for me unfortunately, that tends to work the core and strengthen it whereas I need the opposite and need to relax it, pelvic muscles as well as abdominal and deep core muscles, they're all too tight, so been really gently doing movements and syncing them with deep diaphragm breathing.  Although they're not a superintense core exercise and seem gentler so i may give it a go


people on here seem very fond of yoga, i think its is to the large part new aged hockum, that not to say that some of the exercises arnt of benefit but you can do them and call it something else, like pilarties or just stretching and holds and it works just as well with out the semi mystical nonsense and buying a mat and attending what is quite close to a prenatal class.

And it isn't always the answer to tight mucle, it may work for them as their problem is different to yours, it doesn't follow that it will work for you .

some people just have short inflexable muscles and you can spend the rest of you life. Sitting in the lotus position and breathing deeply, it will make no difference.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> people on here seem very fond of yoga, i think its is to the large part new aged hockum, that not to say that some of the exercises arnt of benefit but you can do them and call it something else, like pilarties or just stretching and holds and it works just as well with out the semi mystical nonsense and buying a mat and attending what is quite close to a prenatal class.
> 
> And it isn't always the answer to tight mucle, it may work for them as their problem is different to yours, it doesn't follow that it will work for you .
> 
> some people just have short inflexable muscles and you can spend the rest of you life. Sitting in the lotus position and breathing deeply, it will make no difference.


I've never run into the mysticism in yoga - all of the classes I attended were just good exercise/stretch classes. Yoga can be (and often is) done without being in a class - but some folks prefer a class environment. I work harder in a group and stay on task better, for instance.

I agree much of what's in yoga's physical practice (I'm not into the spiritual side of it) can be found elsewhere.

As for the mat, I need one for many of those exercises, regardless of what they're called. In fact, the standard yoga mat is useless to me - my knees no longer put up with any real pressure when kneeling, so I use a much softer mat than usual (and fall down a lot in balance poses because of it).


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> people on here seem very fond of yoga, i think its is to the large part new aged hockum, that not to say that some of the exercises arnt of benefit but you can do them and call it something else, like pilarties or just stretching and holds and it works just as well with out the semi mystical nonsense and buying a mat and attending what is quite close to a prenatal class.
> 
> And it isn't always the answer to tight mucle, it may work for them as their problem is different to yours, it doesn't follow that it will work for you .
> 
> some people just have short inflexable muscles and you can spend the rest of you life. Sitting in the lotus position it will make no difference.



Um... no... Yoga is anything *but *new age hockum - that is a very rude and ignorant thing to say. Before you berate it, I suggest you try it as well as do some research. I've been taking yoga for three years now, and have *never *been exposed to any "semi-mystical nonsense". I do own a mat - because I prefer to use my own, instead of using the worn-out mats at YMCA. Also, because my knees hurt, my mat is a tiny bit thicker, reducing the pain and allowing to make my yoga practice more productive. My yoga instructor is a former competitive athlete, a marathon runner, who was directed to yoga by her cardiologist to help alleviate a rare heart condition she had. She is now in amazing health, she no longer has to take medication for her heart (initially, the condition was believed to be of the kind to require medication for the rest of her life), and does mountain biking on weekends for fun. 

Here is American Heart Association's scoop on yoga: Yoga and Heart Health. There are also numerous articles by orthopedic surgeons who routinely recommend yoga to people recovering from serious injuries and surgeries. Do you honestly think cardiologists and orthopeds - scientists who spent many years studying everything there is to know about how human body functions - would recommend what you call "new age hockum"? 

Yoga is hard work and can be tremendously beneficial. It's not uncommon for me to sweat as much in my yoga classes as I do in high-intensity cardio. And the amount of muscle building is comparable to that of a decent weight-lifting session. The class I normally attend includes gymnasts, professional dancers, weight lifters, and at least one football player. Many folks in the group joined just to try it and made it a part of their fitness routine. And many were directed to yoga by their doctors and coaches.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Um... no... Yoga is anything *but *new age hockum - that is a very rude and ignorant thing to say. Before you berate it, I suggest you try it as well as do some research. I've been taking yoga for three years now, and have *never *been exposed to any "semi-mystical nonsense". I do own a mat - because I prefer to use my own, instead of using the worn-out mats at YMCA. Also, because my knees hurt, my mat is a tiny bit thicker, reducing the pain and allowing to make my yoga practice more productive. My yoga instructor is a former competitive athlete, a marathon runner, who was directed to yoga by her cardiologist to help alleviate a rare heart condition she had. She is now in amazing health, she no longer has to take medication for her heart (initially, the condition was believed to be of the kind to require medication for the rest of her life), and does mountain biking on weekends for fun.
> 
> Here is American Heart Association's scoop on yoga: Yoga and Heart Health. There are also numerous articles by orthopedic surgeons who routinely recommend yoga to people recovering from serious injuries and surgeries. Do you honestly think cardiologists and orthopeds - scientists who spent many years studying everything there is to know about how human body functions - would recommend what you call "new age hockum"?
> 
> Yoga is hard work and can be tremendously beneficial. It's not uncommon for me to sweat as much in my yoga classes as I do in high-intensity cardio. And the amount of muscle building is comparable to that of a decent weight-lifting session. The class I normally attend includes gymnasts, professional dancers, weight lifters, and at least one football player. Many folks in the group joined just to try it and made it a part of their fitness routine. And many were directed to yoga by their doctors and coaches.



any exercise, is( potentially) beneficial, there are people walking dogs, gardening, weight training and every thing else at the suggestion of their doctor, that doesn't mean that gardening is the correct exercise for every one, or all gardeners should immediately recommend it to every one for every problem, which is what yoga enthusiast tend to do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> any exercise, is( potentially) beneficial, there are people walking dogs, gardening, weight training and every thing else at the suggestion of their doctor, that doesn't mean that gardening is the correct exercise for every one, or all gardeners should immediately recommend it to every one for every problem, which is what yoga enthusiast tend to do.


Yeah, it's what all enthusiasts tend to do.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> any exercise, is( potentially) beneficial, there are people walking dogs, gardening, weight training and every thing else at the suggestion of their doctor, that doesn't mean that gardening is the correct exercise for every one, or all gardeners should immediately recommend it to every one for every problem, which is what yoga enthusiast tend to do.


Where did I recommend it for *every *problem? Where did I say that? I merely pointed out it had benefits and was recommended by respected medical professionals, particularly cardiologists and orthopaedic specialists. 

YOU were the one who called it "hockum" and "semi-mystical nonsense", which shows you know nothing about it and have done no research on it whatsoever.


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## donald1 (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> I am a LOUSY runner, but I have tremendous respect for people who are not. 5 miles first thing in the morning - that's awesome. What do you have for breakfast and how do you make sure it doesn't sit like a horseshoe at the bottom of your stomach when you jog?


Breakfast is whatever I want it to be. Most of the time it's cereal with a glass of grapefruit juice


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Where did I recommend it for *every *problem? Where did I say that? I merely pointed out it had benefits and was recommended by respected medical professionals, particularly cardiologists and orthopaedic specialists.
> 
> YOU were the one who called it "hockum" and "semi-mystical nonsense", which shows you know nothing about it and have done no research on it whatsoever.


well to be fair you were recommending it to the guy above, though you have absolutely no idea what the cause of his tight muscles may be. Then you follow that up by appeal to a higher aurthority, ie heart surgeons recommend it, so it must b good, whilst failing to mention that doctors might recommend golf or net ball in equal amounts, you have no idea


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, it's what all enthusiasts tend to do.


well yes and religious zealots' as well


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> well to be fair you were recommending it to the guy above, though you have absolutely no idea what the cause of his tight muscles may be. Then you follow that up by appeal to a higher aurthority, ie heart surgeons recommend it, so it must b good, whilst failing to mention that doctors might recommend golf or net ball in equal amounts, you have no idea


No, the guy above was already taking some yoga - sounds like a gentler style than the one I am in. I merely suggested one form that might be helpful and backed off immediately when he said he was going in another direction. The form in question actually helped me with two groups of tight muscles and is used outside of yoga practice by physical therapists. But since he said no - that was fine with me, I respect that. We are all different. But no, you insist on bashing me for making a suggestion in the first place.

And I appealed to higher authority because YOU spoke dismissively and ignorantly about the subject you obviously know nothing about. If you didn't want to take my word for it or the word of anyone else here taking yoga, I invited you to familiarize yourself with the scientific research on the subject, available to you at no cost. Once again, NOWHERE did I say it was good for everything. I outlined my own experience, experience of people I know and train with, and additional information provided by independent sources. 

I have a feeling, had I not offered any evidence that this wasn't something bogus, you would have attacked me for making it up. But since I did offer evidence that this is something respected in the scientific circles, you are attacking me for doing that as well. So, basically, you just want to attack me because you made an ignorant statement, I rebuffed it, and you don't want to take responsibility for your own words. This is kindergarten stuff. Grow up and at least learn to man up when you've been caught making an ignorant generalized statement.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> well yes and religious zealots' as well


Wow... so... say... if someone said martial arts had fitness benefits, provided scientific evidence to the effect, and invited others to come watch or participate in the class, that makes them a religious zealot? Just... wow...


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## shihansmurf (Feb 2, 2018)

To address the OP's question....

I weight train three days a week. Currently running the MadCow intermediate template with some light assistance work added in. I run the other three days and do quite a bit of stretching after each workout.

As my numbers have increased in the main lifts my performance at karate has increased. I hit harder and move faster. There is no disadvantage in being strong as a martial artist. 

Mark


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> No, the guy above was already taking some yoga - sounds like a gentler style than the one I am in. I merely suggested one form that might be helpful and backed off immediately when he said he was going in another direction. The form in question actually helped me with two groups of tight muscles and is used outside of yoga practice by physical therapists. But since he said no - that was fine with me, I respect that. We are all different. But no, you insist on bashing me for making a suggestion in the first place.
> 
> And I appealed to higher authority because YOU spoke dismissively and ignorantly about the subject you obviously know nothing about. If you didn't want to take my word for it or the word of anyone else here taking yoga, I invited you to familiarize yourself with the scientific research on the subject, available to you at no cost. Once again, NOWHERE did I say it was good for everything. I outlined my own experience, experience of people I know and train with, and additional information provided by independent sources.
> 
> I have a feeling, had I not offered any evidence that this wasn't something bogus, you would have attacked me for making it up. But since I did offer evidence that this is something respected in the scientific circles, you are attacking me for doing that as well. So, basically, you just want to attack me because you made an ignorant statement, I rebuffed it, and you don't want to take responsibility for your own words. This is kindergarten stuff. Grow up and at least learn to man up when you've been caught making an ignorant generalized statement.


i don't think I'm attacking you at all, I'm questioning the universal health benefits that are claimed for yoga. The fact you cant differentiates between the two, does indeed reveal a phycological dependence on it, or as some less charitable than myself may call it, religious zeal

do you think a rational soccer player would feel attacked if i said soccer was dangerous to your health, ? Or not as good as basket ball?


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Wow... so... say... if someone said martial arts had fitness benefits, provided scientific evidence to the effect, and invited others to come watch or participate in the class, that makes them a religious zealot? Just... wow...


i think a lot of ma, has distinct cultish elements to it yes, if the health benefits always our way the psychological issues, is debatable


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> well yes and religious zealots' as well


My point was that behavior is far from unique to yoga enthusiasts. Baseball enthusiasts try to talk others into going to games. Rock climbing enthusiasts think everyone will find joy in rock climbing. And so on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i think a lot of ma, has distinct cultish elements to it yes, if the health benefits always our way the psychological issues, is debatable


That wasn't even an answer to the post, Jobo.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i don't think I'm attacking you at all, I'm questioning the universal health benefits that are claimed for yoga. The fact you cant differentiates between the two, does indeed reveal a phycological dependence on it, or as some less charitable than myself may call it, religious zeal
> 
> do you think a rational soccer player would feel attacked if i said soccer was dangerous to your health, ? Or not as good as basket ball?


They might if you called soccer "hokum".


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That wasn't even an answer to the post, Jobo.


yes it was,she asked if a ma who recommends ma could be considered a religious zealot, and the answer was Yes, that may well be the case


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> My point was that behavior is far from unique to yoga enthusiasts. Baseball enthusiasts try to talk others into going to games. Rock climbing enthusiasts think everyone will find joy in rock climbing. And so on.


no that doesn't work as a comparison, if i said to a base ball man, I've got a bad back, he seems unlikely to say, watch base ball that will cure it, or indeed that i has balance problem, it seems unlikely that a rock climber would say do a free climb a few thousand feet, that will cure it. There is i agree a fine line between enthusiast and obsessive, but yoga seem to cross that line more than most, perhaps only ma comes close


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> yes it was,she asked if a ma who recommends ma could be considered a religious zealot, and the answer was Yes, that may well be the case


No, she asked if a MA who recommended MA  *and provided scientific evidence to support the recommendation *would be considered a religious zealot. That's an important distinction, which you ignored in your reply. You responded to a question other than the one asked.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> no that doesn't work as a comparison, if i said to a base ball man, I've got a bad back, he seems unlikely to say, watch base ball that will cure it, or indeed that i has balance problem, it seems unlikely that a rock climber would say do a free climb a few thousand feet, that will cure it. There is i agree a fine line between enthusiast and obsessive, but yoga seem to cross that line more than most, perhaps only ma comes close


Meh. A lot of physical endeavors are pushed by the people who like them. Runners often tell people they'd feel better if they ran. Hikers often tell people they'd be more relaxed if they spent time hiking. And so on. It's probably more extreme with things like yoga and MA, because of the sheer breadth of claims often paired to those activities, but it's certainly not exclusive to them.

My original point was simply that enthusiasts tend to think everyone will be as enthusiastic as they are, if they'd only give it a try.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> They might if you called soccer "hokum".


i doubt it to b honest, there quite a lot of people who will feel personally attacked if i say the team they support is ????, but i consider  them to be mental inflicted, and arises from them using association with a particular team as part of their self esteem, they  can't differentiate them self's from their hobby( obsession) but saying soccer in general was &&&&, wouldn't normally cause upset, unless they were particulary unbalanced


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> No, she asked if a MA who recommended MA  *and provided scientific evidence to support the recommendation *would be considered a religious zealot. That's an important distinction, which you ignored in your reply. You responded to a question other than the one asked.


the. Scientific evidence is irrelevant, with or with out scientific evidence of health benefits, you may very well be taking about joining a cult. 

cults generaly have some benefits or no one would join in then. First place.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i don't think I'm attacking you at all, I'm questioning the universal health benefits that are claimed for yoga. The fact you cant differentiates between the two, does indeed reveal a phycological dependence on it, or as some less charitable than myself may call it, religious zeal
> 
> do you think a rational soccer player would feel attacked if i said soccer was dangerous to your health, ? Or not as good as basket ball?


I never claimed universal health benefits for yoga. So, your accusation is pointless - since it is based on something I've never said.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Meh. A lot of physical endeavors are pushed by the people who like them. Runners often tell people they'd feel better if they ran. Hikers often tell people they'd be more relaxed if they spent time hiking. And so on. It's probably more extreme with things like yoga and MA, because of the sheer breadth of claims often paired to those activities, but it's certainly not exclusive to them.
> 
> My original point was simply that enthusiasts tend to think everyone will be as enthusiastic as they are, if they'd only give it a try.


as an aside, whilst in hospital a couple of tears ago, i git friendly with a Muslim lad, who was sweet and kind and generous, he couldnt however stop himself from telling me that taking the Islamic faith would cure very nearly all problems.

i went as far as a attending a few mosques with him, where the most striking feature was what a good work out the Islamic prayer ceremony was, no wonder they felt good after prayer, i took up the exercise and didn't bother with the religion


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> I never claimed universal health benefits for yoga. So, your accusation is pointless - since it is based on something I've never said.


i was laughing at your xchanges with tez, as you have exactly the same" take any view but my own as a personal attack posting style.

you need to differentiate, between someone that has a view over than yours and some one attacking you personality.
further more, you need to split people talking in general terms and people attributing a specific view to you


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> the. Scientific evidence is irrelevant, with or with out scientific evidence of health benefits, you may very well be taking about joining a cult.
> 
> cults generaly have some benefits or no one would join in then. First place.


Scientific evidence is irrelevant? You know who says that most often? People who can't be bothered with education and religious fanatics. So... what does that make you? 

And how is anything I said suggestive of joining a cult. Let's see:

1) I said yoga has health benefits, and certain forms of it have the intensity of cardio and weight lifting.
2) I said scientists recommend yoga to people for heart benefits and orthoapedic benefits (I did not claim yoga fixes everything - that would be ridiculous).
3) I said we have all sorts of people in my class, including athletes and regular folks, people who joined because they were curious and people who were sent there by their doctors.

Where do you see anything cult-like in this? For your information, while I am a person of a certain faith, I do not belong to any religious organization or any particular church. As a life-long scholar and scientist, I am deeply averse to any sort of cults. And I never get involved in any physical activity without researching it first, which I did with all my current fitness undertakings, including martial arts, yoga, zumba, step, and cross-training for mud runs. I do every single one of those things every week, I do them in groups of people - also a mixed bunch, there for various reasons, and, if anyone asked me if I would recommend those activities, I'd say yes, but ask your doctor first, because it might not work for you. So, does that make me a member of five different cults? Oh, wait, I also like reading and following up on scientific research in medicine, physics, chemistry, and various areas of engineering. And I would recommend those too, because scientific evidence suggests those things are good for brain development. So, sign me up for a few more cults.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i doubt it to b honest, there quite a lot of people who will feel personally attacked if i say the team they support is ????, but i consider  them to be mental inflicted, and arises from them using association with a particular team as part of their self esteem, they  can't differentiate them self's from their hobby( obsession) but saying soccer in general was &&&&, wouldn't normally cause upset, unless they were particulary unbalanced


And how are they supposed to feel. "Hokum" is hardly a compliment. As are some of the other nouns and adjectives you used. What's the matter, you can dish out derogatory terms, but can't accept responsibility?


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i was laughing at your xchanges with tez, as you have exactly the same" take any view but my own as a personal attack posting style.
> 
> you need to differentiate, between someone that has a view over than yours and some one attacking you personality.
> further more, you need to split people talking in general terms and people attributing a specific view to you


You insulted what I do and then you lied about what I said. I consider that pretty personal. If you don't like it - don't say offensive stuff to people. 

And what I talk about to other people is none of your business. This is about what YOU said, because you chose to make an offensive and ignorant statement and are now refusing to take responsibility for it. If you are going to spout ignorant drivel, be prepared to get push back. Like I said - grow up.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Scientific evidence is irrelevant? You know who says that most often? People who can't be bothered with education and religious fanatics. So... what does that make you?
> 
> And how is anything I said suggestive of joining a cult. Let's see:
> 
> ...


no its irrelevant to my point, not irrelevant to the world in general, I'm generaly a fan of scientific evidence , unless its being presented selectivly by a religous zealot, Scientology uses " science" as well


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> And how are they supposed to feel. "Hokum" is hardly a compliment. As are some of the other nouns and adjectives you used. What's the matter, you can dish out derogatory terms, but can't accept responsibility?


I'm here to give my views, if you want compliments speak to your husband, if your offended by my views, in fact it seems by any view but your own, then you need to look to yourself, and ask is someone calling yoga hockum REALLY worth getting hot and bothered about?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i doubt it to b honest, there quite a lot of people who will feel personally attacked if i say the team they support is ????, but i consider  them to be mental inflicted, and arises from them using association with a particular team as part of their self esteem, they  can't differentiate them self's from their hobby( obsession) but saying soccer in general was &&&&, wouldn't normally cause upset, unless they were particulary unbalanced


If they are enthusiasts, it'll likely bother them if you insult the thing globally and in response to them putting it forth as a good whatever. How they handle that (and whether you see it) is another matter. Most people handle stuff that bothers them a little without it being much of an issue.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> no its irrelevant to my point, not irrelevant to the world in general, I'm generaly a fan of scientific evidence , unless its being presented selectivly by a religous zealot, Scientology uses " science" as well


Scientology uses the word, not the actual thing, so far as I can tell.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 2, 2018)

i see religious zealots    ,,,,,cross fit,  vegan's,  climate change,  flat earth, big foot, weight lifting, running, wheat allergies,  its endless.  its the human condition of tribalism.  its evolutionary biology.  everyone has their tribe.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> as an aside, whilst in hospital a couple of tears ago, i git friendly with a Muslim lad, who was sweet and kind and generous, he couldnt however stop himself from telling me that taking the Islamic faith would cure very nearly all problems.
> 
> i went as far as a attending a few mosques with him, where the most striking feature was what a good work out the Islamic prayer ceremony was, no wonder they felt good after prayer, i took up the exercise and didn't bother with the religion


Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm thinking about. It's well intentioned, and not really much zealotry in the recommendation. An overstated claim - as you said, something pretty common in MA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i was laughing at your xchanges with tez, as you have exactly the same" take any view but my own as a personal attack posting style.
> 
> you need to differentiate, between someone that has a view over than yours and some one attacking you personality.
> further more, you need to split people talking in general terms and people attributing a specific view to you


Your discussion style does tend to come across as more than a little dismissive at times, Jobo.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> the. Scientific evidence is irrelevant, with or with out scientific evidence of health benefits, you may very well be taking about joining a cult.
> 
> cults generaly have some benefits or no one would join in then. First place.


Suggesting something for health benefits, with scientific evidence that it provides health benefits, has nothing to do with cults. It could be a cult being suggested, or it might be a dumbbell workout routine. In both cases, the scientific evidence is patently relevant.

The comparison to cult is your own introduction to the conversation, and isn't relevant to the point.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i see religious zealots    ,,,,,cross fit,  vegan's,  climate change,  flat earth, big foot, weight lifting, running, wheat allergies,  its endless.  its the human condition of tribalism.  its evolutionary biology.  everyone has their tribe.


In my day, I've been zealous about a few things. I also played Simon Zealotes in Jesus Christ Superstar in college. Type casting, I tell you.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Your discussion style does tend to come across as more than a little dismissive at times, Jobo.


I'm being very patient on the. Grounds she is your lady, my views are my own and not a personal attack on her, perhaps you could have xplain that over croissants and wine


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm being very patient on the. Grounds she is your lady, my views are my own and not a personal attack on her, perhaps you could have xplain that over croissants and wine


Ah, she doesn't need any extra patience, man. She'll fight back when she feels the need and drop it when she's done. She's not as fond of arguments as I am, so you probably won't have as many long threads with her.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm being very patient on the. Grounds she is your lady, my views are my own and not a personal attack on her, perhaps you could have xplain that over croissants and wine


Oooh, great! Hey, @gpseymour , I guess I'm your property now! So, is it ok if I don't worry my pretty little head with this anymore? You let me know right after I go paint my nails fuchsia pink.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

While the ignorant git stews in his own juices... on the subject of yoga... Does anyone have any recommendation how to smooth out the chataranga when you have a very short torso, arms and legs? You know, to avoid prematurely floomping onto your stomach? I ALMOST have it - ALMOST. I finally got my bicep strength to where I can bring my elbows in slowly and slide forward. But my ending is still too bumpy. I am trying to get to a point where I can go from child's pose into cobra via chataranga without touching the floor with my belly at all. Any advice?

Also, for obstacle course cross-training purposes, I have the damndest time climbing tall obstacles with widely spaced rungs. In most cases, they are spaced for people of normal height - maybe even to challenge them a little. But getting my leg high enough (bad hips) to get up that very first rung is usually rather purgatorial. I've been working on my chin-ups to help myself pull up with my arms, and people at these events are always very helpful, so I often get a hand up, but I would still like to figure out how to get on these things myself. Any thoughts?


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> no its irrelevant to my point, not irrelevant to the world in general, I'm generaly a fan of scientific evidence , unless its being presented selectivly by a religous zealot, Scientology uses " science" as well


I am not a religious zealot presenting scientific evidence (which I actually haven't seen before - but ok, whatever). I am a regular person who has experience in something and presents scientific evidence to support it. So, again, this comment is irrelevant.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm here to give my views, if you want compliments speak to your husband, if your offended by my views, in fact it seems by any view but your own, then you need to look to yourself, and ask is someone calling yoga hockum REALLY worth getting hot and bothered about?


Yes, I am an opponent of ignorance. And when someone makes an ignorant statement - I call them on it. Too bad you expect to make ignorant statements and suffer no consequences. Again - that's kindergarten stuff. I don't think I got away with such silliness even when I was five, and I don't let other people get away with it either.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Oooh, great! Hey, @gpseymour , I guess I'm your property now! So, is it ok if I don't worry my pretty little head with this anymore? You let me know right after I go paint my nails fuchsia pink.


i think that might be a waste of good nail varnish


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Suggesting something for health benefits, with scientific evidence that it provides health benefits, has nothing to do with cults. It could be a cult being suggested, or it might be a dumbbell workout routine. In both cases, the scientific evidence is patently relevant.
> 
> The comparison to cult is your own introduction to the conversation, and isn't relevant to the point.


no, but just because. It has science doesn't mean its nit a cult,all cults have scientific evidence of benefits


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i think a lot of ma, has distinct cultish elements to it yes, if the health benefits always our way the psychological issues, is debatable



Have you been reading Larson's Book of the Cults?  He describes MA as a cult.  Reading it, it sounds like he is talking about Aikido, but he doesn't specifically name any MA, just that all martial arts are cults.  As it happens, I don't agree.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> no, but just because. It has science doesn't mean its nit a cult,all cults have scientific evidence of benefits



Amazing.  I had no idea you were so knowledgeable in all cults.  Still, I don't think I can agree with you.  The few I know anything about mostly stick to faith in their beliefs.  You did mention the Scientologists above.  I have to admit I know very little about them. 

But I didn't like L. Ron Hubbard as a writer of science fiction.  I am sure I wouldn't have liked his writings on a self-made religion.  But that is just me.  Any Scientologist is free to disagree for reasons of their own.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Have you been reading Larson's Book of the Cults?  He describes MA as a cult.  Reading it, it sounds like he is talking about Aikido, but he doesn't specifically name any MA, just that all martial arts are cults.  As it happens, I don't agree.


no i don't think its,style dependent, but yes, there are elements of cult about ma, in general and some in particular,


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Amazing.  I had no idea you were so knowledgeable in all cults.  Still, I don't think I can agree with you.  The few I know anything about mostly stick to faith in their beliefs.  You did mention the Scientologists above.  I have to admit I know very little about them.
> 
> But I didn't like L. Ron Hubbard as a writer of science fiction.  I am sure I wouldn't have liked his writings on a self-made religion.  But that is just me.  Any Scientologist is free to disagree for reasons of their own.


people join cults for a variety of benefits, it could be as simple as food and shelter, it could friendship or belonging, but by and large there has to be an advantage to joining, that's then traded off against the aims of the group


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> no, but just because. It has science doesn't mean its nit a cult,all cults have scientific evidence of benefits


Rarely, but it's possible.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> no i don't think its,style dependent, but yes, there are elements of cult about ma, in general and some in particular,


I'll disagree with the "in general" part, and agree with the "in particular" part. There's a lot of areas of MA where there's not much cultishness to be found - no more than in any social group. I don't know if that would be the majority of it, but certainly a large portion.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Rarely, but it's possible.


well at its most basic, food and shelter has scientific evidence of its benefits, if a person in general has a need for it, then its a scientifically proven benefit


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'll disagree with the "in general" part, and agree with the "in particular" part. There's a lot of areas of MA where there's not much cultishness to be found - no more than in any social group. I don't know if that would be the majority of it, but certainly a large portion.


i think a lot of it comes from trying to superimposes aspects of Japanese culture and not modern Japanese culture at that, in to a western setting, bowing, siring and lots of tradition is by our standards cultish. If the same behaviour patterns were required at say a bowling team you joined, you were required to bow to the alley and shout sir every time the team captain spoke, i think even you might find that odd


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> i think a lot of it comes from trying to superimposes aspects of Japanese culture and not modern Japanese culture at that, in to a western setting, bowing, siring and lots of tradition is by our standards cultish. If the same behaviour patterns were required at say a bowling team you joined, you were required to bow to the alley and shout sir every time the team captain spoke, i think even you might find that odd


It's ritualistic, but that doesn't rise to the definition of cultish - but you make a reasonable point. There are rituals in many sports groups that are odd to outsiders. Even more in other cross-cultural pursuits. Mind you, even those things don't permeate all of MA - that's the reason I disagreed on the generality.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's ritualistic, but that doesn't rise to the definition of cultish - but you make a reasonable point. There are rituals in many sports groups that are odd to outsiders. Even more in other cross-cultural pursuits. Mind you, even those things don't permeate all of MA - that's the reason I disagreed on the generality.


it can quickly become a cult of personality were the,sensie must be obeyed,
.my group is quite laid back on such things, which is why i attend. People wander in and out as they see fit
but we had a visiting instructor who saw it differently, she wanted straight lines and instant obedience and got really cross when i got bored and started doing gymnastics of a low beam, she barked  twenty press ups as punishment for my indiscresion of packing the,drill in early, i just laughed at her and went back to doing back flips of the beam, i thought she was going to cry. I couldn't put up with a class like that for long


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> it can quickly become a cult of personality were the,sensie must be obeyed,
> .my group is quite laid back on such things, which is why i attend. People wander in and out as they see fit
> but we had a visiting instructor who saw it differently, she wanted straight lines and instant obedience and got really cross when i got bored and started doing gymnastics of a low beam, she barked  twenty press ups as punishment for my indiscresion of packing the,drill in early, i just laughed at her and went back to doing back flips of the beam, i thought she was going to cry. I couldn't put up with a class like that for long


There are reasons for staying with the group in exercises. If you're not interested in working with the group, you should take private lessons. But that's my view. If your instructor is okay with you screwing around during class, you've found the right home.


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## _Simon_ (Feb 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> well to be fair you were recommending it to the guy above, though you have absolutely no idea what the cause of his tight muscles may be. Then you follow that up by appeal to a higher aurthority, ie heart surgeons recommend it, so it must b good, whilst failing to mention that doctors might recommend golf or net ball in equal amounts, you have no idea



.... Yeah AngryHobbit was just recommending something from yoga, I don't think she was saying it'll cure all things... I appreciate the suggestion... :S


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Um... no... Yoga is anything *but *new age hockum - that is a very rude and ignorant thing to say. Before you berate it, I suggest you try it as well as do some research. I've been taking yoga for three years now, and have *never *been exposed to any "semi-mystical nonsense". I do own a mat - because I prefer to use my own, instead of using the worn-out mats at YMCA. Also, because my knees hurt, my mat is a tiny bit thicker, reducing the pain and allowing to make my yoga practice more productive. My yoga instructor is a former competitive athlete, a marathon runner, who was directed to yoga by her cardiologist to help alleviate a rare heart condition she had. She is now in amazing health, she no longer has to take medication for her heart (initially, the condition was believed to be of the kind to require medication for the rest of her life), and does mountain biking on weekends for fun.
> 
> Here is American Heart Association's scoop on yoga: Yoga and Heart Health. There are also numerous articles by orthopedic surgeons who routinely recommend yoga to people recovering from serious injuries and surgeries. Do you honestly think cardiologists and orthopeds - scientists who spent many years studying everything there is to know about how human body functions - would recommend what you call "new age hockum"?
> 
> Yoga is hard work and can be tremendously beneficial. It's not uncommon for me to sweat as much in my yoga classes as I do in high-intensity cardio. And the amount of muscle building is comparable to that of a decent weight-lifting session. The class I normally attend includes gymnasts, professional dancers, weight lifters, and at least one football player. Many folks in the group joined just to try it and made it a part of their fitness routine. And many were directed to yoga by their doctors and coaches.




Not exactly sure which poster is calling Yoga new age hockum, I have a couple posters in ignore here on MT, but if one take the time to look at the medical/pschological POV, based on study, you will see it is not

Yoga for anxiety and depression - Harvard Health

Yoga – Benefits Beyond the Mat - Harvard Health

Yoga Has Potent Health Benefits - Psychology Today

The Benefits of Yoga - Osteopathic.org

Yoga’s Benefits from Head to Toe - John Hopkins medicine

Yoga: Benefits, Intensity Level, and More - WebMD


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## jobo (Feb 3, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not exactly sure which poster is calling Yoga new age hockum, I have a couple posters in ignore here on MT, but if one take the time to look at the medical/pschological POV, based on study, you will see it is not
> 
> Yoga for anxiety and depression - Harvard Health
> 
> ...


i can't see the point of entering a discussion when you have the person you are disagreeing with on ignore??

but any way as a general question, i do polarties and mindfulness, some times together, usual separately, in what way would my mental and physical health be improved if i ditched them and did yoga instead?


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 3, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not exactly sure which poster is calling Yoga new age hockum, I have a couple posters in ignore here on MT, but if one take the time to look at the medical/pschological POV, based on study, you will see it is not
> 
> Yoga for anxiety and depression - Harvard Health
> 
> ...


It's Jobo. I ignored him too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> i can't see the point of entering a discussion when you have the person you are disagreeing with on ignore??
> 
> but any way as a general question, i do polarties and mindfulness, some times together, usual separately, in what way would my mental and physical health be improved if i ditched them and did yoga instead?


I assume you meant pilates. I expect combining that with mindfulness gets some of the same benefits as yoga. I've not read the research on some of the more wide-ranging findings of yoga's benefits, so I don't know what they're attributed to. If any of them are attributed to the slower movements, held poses, and inversions, those are not typical in pilates. It depends what part of yoga is bringing which benefits.


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## jobo (Feb 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I assume you meant pilates. I expect combining that with mindfulness gets some of the same benefits as yoga. I've not read the research on some of the more wide-ranging findings of yoga's benefits, so I don't know what they're attributed to. If any of them are attributed to the slower movements, held poses, and inversions, those are not typical in pilates. It depends what part of yoga is bringing which benefits.


yes Pilates, the spell check wouldn't put it up.

well people n general keep making health benefit claims for yoga, it really needs them to assess their evidence and state that yoga is better than other exercise. Because.........

or, as i suspect, its much the same in general terms as any other exercise and obviously inferior in many important area of physical development to other less Magical mystery xcersis

nb Pilates has a significant proportion of slow movement and holds, as do a lot of body weight onxcersises, it is very much like yoga,apart from the,chanting and joss sticks and enlightenment


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## jobo (Feb 3, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> It's Jobo. I ignored him too.


to be honest that's something of a relief


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## jobo (Feb 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There are reasons for staying with the group in exercises. If you're not interested in working with the group, you should take private lessons. But that's my view. If your instructor is okay with you screwing around during class, you've found the right home.


its less what i was doing,vso much as she thought my not obeying her instruction was worthy of punishment and even more that she thought i would subject myself to the humiliation of punishment by following her instruction to punish my self. 

clearly her expectations were based on the amount of cult status she has with her normal group


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## Langenschwert (Feb 3, 2018)

Late to the party, but I'd like to comment on the very first post, and the reference to sport fencers, who I find quite inspirational in their dedication to excellence. One reason elite sport fencers are able to do what they do is they are encouraged to see themselves as athletes first, and fencers second. In their own way, they work as hard as wrestlers do. Their athleticism is the foundation of their art, combined with the most advanced pedagogy of any sport on the planet. Their training involves all kinds of conditioning, reflex games, and the like. The more athletic you are, the better your martial performance will become. So yes, non martial training has a huge impact on one's performance as a martial artist. 

To add a few quotes, the first from what may be the oldest manuscript in the Liechtenauer tradition:

"For practice is better than art. Your exercise does well without the art, but the art is not much good without the exercise."  -HS. 3227a

"The athletes are coming" -Joe Rogan

Perfectly relevant to the first post:

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" -Confucius

Full disclosure: I don't dance. Nobody's perfect.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 3, 2018)

Langenschwert said:


> "For practice is better than art. Your exercise does well without the art, but the art is not much good without the exercise."  -HS. 3227a



You know... that reminds me of what Polish composer and musical educator Elsner used to say, "There are two kinds of people who forego the rules - those who don't know them at all and those who know them exceptionally well." And added, to his student Frederic Chopin, "I have a feeling you forego them because you know them well." 



Langenschwert said:


> Full disclosure: I don't dance. Nobody's perfect.



The last best line in _Some Like It Hot_. So, who are we to argue.


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## Headhunter (Feb 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> its less what i was doing,vso much as she thought my not obeying her instruction was worthy of punishment and even more that she thought i would subject myself to the humiliation of punishment by following her instruction to punish my self.
> 
> clearly her expectations were based on the amount of cult status she has with her normal group


Or you just can't do push ups lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> yes Pilates, the spell check wouldn't put it up.
> 
> well people n general keep making health benefit claims for yoga, it really needs them to assess their evidence and state that yoga is better than other exercise. Because.........
> 
> ...


Making a health claim for yoga isn't an assertion that it's better than something else. I like yoga for helping loosen up my hips. I could do that with stretching, too, but that doesn't change the fact that yoga works.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> its less what i was doing,vso much as she thought my not obeying her instruction was worthy of punishment and even more that she thought i would subject myself to the humiliation of punishment by following her instruction to punish my self.
> 
> clearly her expectations were based on the amount of cult status she has with her normal group


That's not really a function of cult status. It's a function of organizational culture. If folks choose to submit to a strict order of control during classes because it suits them, that's not inherently cultish. Just as in the right organizational culture, your shenanigans aren't disruptive. In every class I've ever been in (or taught) they would be. That would make that class a bad fit for you, and vice versa - bad culture fit.


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## jobo (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's not really a function of cult status. It's a function of organizational culture. If folks choose to submit to a strict order of control during classes because it suits them, that's not inherently cultish. Just as in the right organizational culture, your shenanigans aren't disruptive. In every class I've ever been in (or taught) they would be. That would make that class a bad fit for you, and vice versa - bad culture fit.


it most certainly is, its just a,question of degree,any CULTure that requires unquestioning obedience and requires you to punish yourself for not obeying the dictated of the leader, most certainly has elements of a cult about it. And that was my opening point, not that they are cults, just that they are getting that way.
like most cult members you have trouble recognising it


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## jobo (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Making a health claim for yoga isn't an assertion that it's better than something else. I like yoga for helping loosen up my hips. I could do that with stretching, too, but that doesn't change the fact that yoga works.


its not your point im disputing, its not you posting multiple links claim multiple health benefits for yoga.

and I've never claim yoga doesn't have health benefits, my point is that its over hyped and has no more benefits than most other forms of exercises , different benefits perhaps, but not more or superior benefits. Certainly in like for like it is not in anyway better than Pilates . It's just that Pilates doesn't have new aged mysticism wrapped up in it.

if people wish to show that yoga n has health benefits greater than other forms of exercise, then they need to show that, or except that it's just another exercise no better than many others


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> it most certainly is, its just a,question of degree,any CULTure that requires unquestioning obedience and requires you to punish yourself for not obeying the dictated of the leader, most certainly has elements of a cult about it. And that was my opening point, not that they are cults, just that they are getting that way.
> like most cult members you have trouble recognising it


Who said anything about "unquestioning"? If someone asked my early instructors why they used push-ups when people didn't follow instructions, they'd be able to supply a reason. And if people asked why a drill was being assigned, they'd have an answer to that, too. Push-ups to encourage coordinated effort among the group doesn't even imply "unquestioning obedience".


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> its not your point im disputing, its not you posting multiple links claim multiple health benefits for yoga.
> 
> and I've never claim yoga doesn't have health benefits, my point is that its over hyped and has no more benefits than most other forms of exercises , different benefits perhaps, but not more or superior benefits. Certainly in like for like it is not in anyway better than Pilates . It's just that Pilates doesn't have new aged mysticism wrapped up in it.
> 
> if people wish to show that yoga n has health benefits greater than other forms of exercise, then they need to show that, or except that it's just another exercise no better than many others


Those links were to scientific evidence. You know, the kind of stuff that we should use to make sure something's not over-hyped. It's not over-hyped if it's true. And the fact that someone can show (or even just asserts) multiple benefits doesn't imply they think it's better than everything else for any one of those (though it's possible it's better for the collective, even that's not implied). If someone claims it has benefits that aren't supported by evidence, or that it is the only/best way to get some of those benefits, etc. - that would likely be overhype.

You are arguing against a partial strawman. You're making statements to counter assertions not made, using assertions made as incomplete evidence of them.

EDIT: It would be like if someone showed evidence that acetaminophen + ibuprofen is effective at relieving tooth pain (it is), and I said they were over-hyping it and I'm tired of people saying that combination is the best way to treat any pain (neither being in evidence in their advice).


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## jobo (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Those links were to scientific evidence. You know, the kind of stuff that we should use to make sure something's not over-hyped. It's not over-hyped if it's true. And the fact that someone can show (or even just asserts) multiple benefits doesn't imply they think it's better than everything else for any one of those (though it's possible it's better for the collective, even that's not implied). If someone claims it has benefits that aren't supported by evidence, or that it is the only/best way to get some of those benefits, etc. - that would likely be overhype.
> 
> You are arguing against a partial strawman. You're making statements to counter assertions not made, using assertions made as incomplete evidence of them.
> 
> EDIT: It would be like if someone showed evidence that acetaminophen + ibuprofen is effective at relieving tooth pain (it is), and I said they were over-hyping it and I'm tired of people saying that combination is the best way to treat any pain (neither being in evidence in their advice).


its not just yoga being over hyped, so to are the links, non of them could reasonable called scientific evidence


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## jobo (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Who said anything about "unquestioning"? If someone asked my early instructors why they used push-ups when people didn't follow instructions, they'd be able to supply a reason. And if people asked why a drill was being assigned, they'd have an answer to that, too. Push-ups to encourage coordinated effort among the group doesn't even imply "unquestioning obedience".


well clearly they could supply a reason, its a cult, that's the reason, if they admit to it is another thing all together


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> its not just yoga being over hyped, so to are the links, non of them could reasonable called scientific evidence


So, dispute that rather than the strawman.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> well clearly they could supply a reason, its a cult, that's the reason, if they admit to it is another thing all together


You're ignoring the point of the post. On purpose, I presume.


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## jobo (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You're ignoring the point of the post. On purpose, I presume.


no, i ignored your attempt to derail .

punishing someone who disobeys, has but one purpose, to ensure they obey on the future, I'm sure you won't take issue with that simple statement of truth.

the question then, is there future obedience for your benefit or theirs. Organisations in general, some in particular seek to remove individuality and expressions of free will, that is very nearly always to the betterment of the organisation and the detriment of the individual. though they always claim its for " your own good" it,seldom is


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## jobo (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So, dispute that rather than the strawman.


but the whole claim of scientific name evidence is a stawman.
no such has been produced this far. 

as the only argument against my points is an appeal to " higher authority, in the shape of non existent scientific evidence, then it would be them that's building a strawman


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> no, i ignored your attempt to derail .
> 
> punishing someone who disobeys, has but one purpose, to ensure they obey on the future, I'm sure you won't take issue with that simple statement of truth.
> 
> the question then, is there future obedience for your benefit or theirs. Organisations in general, some in particular seek to remove individuality and expressions of free will, that is very nearly always to the betterment of the organisation and the detriment of the individual. though they always claim its for " your own good" it,seldom is


Nope. You're avoiding the point...again.

You spoke of "unquestioning". If people can (and do) question, then their compliance is not - by definition - unquestioning.

But go ahead and try to swing the topic away from your weak attempts to toss in terms that aren't applicable to the topic.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> but the whole claim of scientific name evidence is a stawman.
> no such has been produced this far.
> 
> as the only argument against my points is an appeal to " higher authority, in the shape of non existent scientific evidence, then it would be them that's building a strawman


So, show some reason why it's not scientific. "Appeal to authority" refers to an argument in which the authority cited is cited only for its inherent authority - rather than because it has provided research that supports the argument.

So, if the links cited aren't evidence of scientific research, then discuss that, rather than simply tossing out your epithets and ill-used jargon.


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## jobo (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Nope. You're avoiding the point...again.
> 
> You spoke of "unquestioning". If people can (and do) question, then their compliance is not - by definition - unquestioning.
> 
> But go ahead and try to swing the topic away from your weak attempts to toss in terms that aren't applicable to the topic.


the ability question aurthority, is more than simply asking that aurthority to provide an explanation and then doing it  anyway, it must also consist of the ability to decline that explanation as a good enough reason and therefore decline the aurthority to give that instruction.


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## jobo (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So, show some reason why it's not scientific. "Appeal to authority" refers to an argument in which the authority cited is cited only for its inherent authority - rather than because it has provided research that supports the argument.
> 
> So, if the links cited aren't evidence of scientific research, then discuss that, rather than simply tossing out your epithets and ill-used jargon.


its not scientific, as they appear to contain no data,no blind study, no methodology, in fact nothing scientific at all, points you have made many many times , when people post up chopped down conclusion


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> the ability question aurthority, is more than simply asking that aurthority to provide an explanation and then doing it  anyway, it must also consist of the ability to decline that explanation as a good enough reason and therefore decline the aurthority to give that instruction.


Yes, it is. But only with reason. Doing it capriciously - without regard to how it affects others in the environment - is not relevant to whether the authority is cultish or not. Being able to question and challenge is. And giving push-ups is not inherently relevant to the question.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> its not scientific, as they appear to contain no data,no blind study, no methodology, in fact nothing scientific at all, points you have made many many times , when people post up chopped down conclusion


Now you're putting forth something worth discussion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> its not scientific, as they appear to contain no data,no blind study, no methodology, in fact nothing scientific at all, points you have made many many times , when people post up chopped down conclusion


Looking at the first three links, you are drawing conclusions from evidence not present. The brief synopses do not give any of that information, so you’re assuming the studies are fatally flawed.


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Looking at the first three links, you are drawing conclusions from evidence not present. The brief synopses do not give any of that information, so you’re assuming the studies are fatally flawed.


no I'm stating as a fact, that what people have declared as " scientific evidence" is no such thing. What is actually in the,studies we will probably neve know, as it seem highly unlikely that the people making such rash claims will even acknowledge their short comings let alone track down the actual studies.

i suspect, that like most headline conclusions to studies the actual evidence in the data is far less conclusive.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> its less what i was doing,vso much as she thought my not obeying her instruction was worthy of punishment and even more that she thought i would subject myself to the humiliation of punishment by following her instruction to punish my self.
> 
> clearly her expectations were based on the amount of cult status she has with her normal group



Martial Arts have their roots in fighting, quite often organized fighting, but certainly in organized training to fight.  It requires discipline.  It would seem you not only don't have discipline, but like to flout the fact you do not. 

I wasn't there of course, but I could believe her expectations were based more on her desire to instill discipline.  Discipline is needed for many endeavors, including teaching and learning. 

Worse, I would believe your actions, since they were obviously flouting her authority to teach, were disruptive for other students.  For me, knowing I was doing that to other students would be a big burden to carry.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> no I'm stating as a fact, that what people have declared as " scientific evidence" is no such thing. What is actually in the,studies we will probably neve know, as it seem highly unlikely that the people making such rash claims will even acknowledge their short comings let alone track down the actual studies.
> 
> i suspect, that like most headline conclusions to studies the actual evidence in the data is far less conclusive.


You last statement is the best point you can make from this.


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You last statement is the best point you can make from this.


and of course if the studies didn't contain control groups doing other exercise and no exercise, the data its self would be of extremely limited use, if we ever got to see it


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> and of course if the studies didn't contain control groups doing other exercise and no exercise, the data its self would be of extremely limited use, if we ever got to see it


That’s too iffy for the strong statements you made earlier. As you said, the biggest issue is that articles for mass consumption often draw strong conclusions where the study result only allows inferences.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> well clearly they could supply a reason, its a cult, that's the reason, if they admit to it is another thing all together



All cults share certain characteristics.

What is your definition of a cult?



jobo said:


> no, i ignored your attempt to derail .
> 
> punishing someone who disobeys, has but one purpose, to ensure they obey on the future, I'm sure you won't take issue with that simple statement of truth.



Generally that is true.  But is that to the benefit of only the teacher, or are there any group benefits expected?  And could any group benefits extend to other parts of society?



jobo said:


> the question then, is there future obedience for your benefit or theirs. Organisations in general, some in particular seek to remove individuality and expressions of free will, that is very nearly always to the betterment of the organisation and the detriment of the individual. though they always claim its for " your own good" it,seldom is



So answer your own question; but consider if there is benefit to others beside the teacher or you.

If an entity (organization) desires to limit the expression of individuality/free will, but not eliminate it completely, would you see benefit to that?  Could that enhance the mission completion of the entity?


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That’s too iffy for the strong statements you made earlier. As you said, the biggest issue is that articles for mass consumption often draw strong conclusions where the study result only allows inferences.


no that to is a fact, you know more than i do about studies, and you have on many occasions identified the use of control groups as a neccersary composite of a study


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> All cults share certain characteristics.
> 
> What is your definition of a cult?
> 
> ...


people use, " cult" as a term for things they or wider society disaprove off, seldom for things that they are part of. In short any group who's behaviour patterns or culture differ significantly from the norms of society is potentially a cult. Imposing the norms of behaviour from 1900s Japan in to twenty first century America is by any reasonable defintion a cult.

all cults think they are to the benefit of their members, they there fore conclude. That punishing you for failing to obey is also to their benefit.

you really need to run a comparison, let's say your son attends chess club and he turns up late, and the captain makes him jump up and down for five mins as punishment.as lateness is not allowed in their culture.

most parents would think that' Odd n fact consider it to be bullying and remove their son immediately. If however he turns up late for karate and is punished for the good of others members, you would considered ok?


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 5, 2018)

"the difference between a cult and a religion,,, a cult is BS, it was created by one person and that person knows its BS.  In a religion ....that person is dead"

Joe Rogan


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> people use, " cult" as a term for things they or wider society disaprove off, seldom for things that they are part of. In short any group who's behaviour patterns or culture differ significantly from the norms of society is potentially a cult. Imposing the norms of behaviour from 1900s Japan in to twenty first century America is by any reasonable defintion a cult.
> 
> all cults think they are to the benefit of their members, they there fore conclude. That punishing you for failing to obey is also to their benefit.
> 
> ...



Your first two paragraphs are very broad, relatively new ideas, and are not accepted by everyone.  You might want to peruse through some of the  below URLs if you are really interested, which you probably are not.

What's a Cult?

cult - Bing

As to your 3rd and 4th paragraphs, I think they are weak.  What benefit would there be to jumping up and down for lateness to a chess club meet as a way to improve chess ability, as opposed to jumping up and down, or doing pushups for being late to a karate class?  In the case of the karate class, the student will gain more physical ability, and he and the other students will have some discipline instilled in them.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> "the difference between a cult and a religion,,, a cult is BS, it was created by one person and that person knows its BS.  In a religion ....that person is dead"
> 
> Joe Rogan



Based on that, which may have been funny in the context of some comedy routine of his, I would personally seek somewhere else for a definition of a cult.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> no that to is a fact, you know more than i do about studies, and you have on many occasions identified the use of control groups as a neccersary composite of a study


That wasn’t my point. You said the links didnt provide scientific support and listed specific flaw categories. The fact is you don’t know if those flaws exist. They might, or they might not. Your claim was over-hyped - the very practice you were railing against.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> people use, " cult" as a term for things they or wider society disaprove off, seldom for things that they are part of. In short any group who's behaviour patterns or culture differ significantly from the norms of society is potentially a cult. Imposing the norms of behaviour from 1900s Japan in to twenty first century America is by any reasonable defintion a cult.
> 
> all cults think they are to the benefit of their members, they there fore conclude. That punishing you for failing to obey is also to their benefit.
> 
> ...


By your loose definition, we are overrun with cults. Most businesses, sports teams and indeed all sports, every fighting training, most bars, and some service and social organizations fit that overreaching definition.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> you really need to run a comparison, let's say your son attends chess club and he turns up late, and the captain makes him jump up and down for five mins as punishment.as lateness is not allowed in their culture.


Chess isn’t a physical pursuit, so the pushups have no value there. A better comparison would be the captain making him sit to the side and memorize a chess board from a specific match.


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Your first two paragraphs are very broad, relatively new ideas, and are not accepted by everyone.  You might want to peruse through some of the  below URLs if you are really interested, which you probably are not.
> 
> What's a Cult?
> 
> ...


well fitness is an important part of chess , and more importantly the jumping up and down is a punishment,, the first rule of phycology, is don't use behavour you want to encourage, in this case excersise as a punishment , it only setts up negative attitudes to that behaviour, in this case. Excersise.


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> By your loose definition, we are overrun with cults. Most businesses, sports teams and indeed all sports, every fighting training, most bars, and some service and social organizations fit that overreaching definition.


well no, if all sports teams behave in a similar way, that then puts them within normal behaviour, so excluded them from the defintion


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> well fitness is an important part of chess , and more importantly the jumping up and down is a punishment,, the first rule of phycology, is don't use behavour you want to encourage, in this case excersise as a punishment , it only setts up negative attitudes to that behaviour, in this case. Excersise.


That last part is valid, but beside your point. MA instructors use physical activity because it is beneficial to the person (and in hopes it will tire them a bit so they’ll be less fidgety).


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> well no, if all sports teams behave in a similar way, that then puts them within normal behaviour, so excluded them from the defintion


But all sports teams don’t have a similar way. It varies by sport. And you referred specifically to




jobo said:


> any group who's behaviour patterns or culture differ significantly from the norms of society



Much of sport is quite different from societal norms. If sports having similar norms makes them non-cult, why wouldn’t that also apply to groups of MA with similar norms?


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> well fitness is an important part of chess , and more importantly the jumping up and down is a punishment,, the first rule of phycology, is don't use behavour you want to encourage, in this case excersise as a punishment , it only setts up negative attitudes to that behaviour, in this case. Excersise.


i came from a time and place were running round the sports field on a freezing day in ankle deep mud was a " good " punishment for  not turning up for sports class, i can say with some certainly this did not result in producing life long runners


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That last part is valid, but beside your point. MA instructors use physical activity because it is beneficial to the person (and in hopes it will tire them a bit so they’ll be less fidgety).


see above, its not benifocal f it puts them off the notion than exercise. Is a fun activerty done for fun.

they should reward them with press ups for good behaviour, and exclude them for bad


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> But all sports teams don’t have a similar way. It varies by sport. And you referred specifically to
> 
> 
> 
> ...


but participating in sport, IS a societal norm, so the culture of sports teams that behave much the same as each other is normal by the stabdards of that society


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> but participating in sport, IS a societal norm, so the culture of sports teams that behave much the same as each other is normal by the stabdards of that society


ma is a normal, as its seems its the only sport that inflicts behaviours from a different country and a different century, that is nit normal in sport

nb that should say abnormal, i can't edit at the moment


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> well fitness is an important part of chess , and more importantly the jumping up and down is a punishment,, the first rule of phycology, is don't use behavour you want to encourage, in this case excersise as a punishment , it only setts up negative attitudes to that behaviour, in this case. Excersise.



The negative attitude would be against being late for class, although I really doubt a teacher would do that without being late having become a constant for a student.  But disobeying the teacher would be something I would think was insubordinate and disruptive to the rest of the students.  If a student doesn't want to exercise, I would say the student has no desire to learn a martial art. 

Fitness as an important part of chess?  Are you referring to some heretofore unknown combat chess?


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> The negative attitude would be against being late for class, although I really doubt a teacher would do that without being late having become a constant for a student.  But disobeying the teacher would be something I would think was insubordinate and disruptive to the rest of the students.  If a student doesn't want to exercise, I would say the student has no desire to learn a martial art.
> 
> Fitness as an important part of chess?  Are you referring to some heretofore unknown combat chess?


no the negative attitude would be towards the punishment,

chess takes great fitness to sit and concentrate for hours, if you look at the current top players they are all late 20s and look like they work out, its not co incidence. That fat / unfit old men are not in the current 10 ten of world players I'm fact i doubt you could find one in the top 100 or so


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## JR 137 (Feb 5, 2018)

Doing various exercises due to being late for an MA class isn’t strictly punishment in every dojo.  Depending on how late a student is to our class, he/she may have to do more exercises before they’re allowed on the floor.  Why?  As a warmup.  If you walk in and everyone is in the middle of doing 100 roundhouse kicks during basics, you shouldn’t just jump right into it.  That would be a great way to pull something.  My CI in that instance will have the student do some pushups, jumping jacks, etc. then stretch a bit on their own before lining up.  Punishment or not is in the eye of the beholder.

Nothing cultish about making someone warm up adequately before joining the physical activity.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> no the negative attitude would be towards the punishment,
> 
> chess takes great fitness to sit and concentrate for hours, if you look at the current top players they are all late 20s and look like they work out, its not co incidence. That fat / unfit old men are not in the current 10 ten of world players I'm fact i doubt you could find one in the top 100 or so



Negative attitude for minor punishment (that would help me in the long run) just wouldn't enter my mind.  I guess I am just wired different. 

Of course, I never knew any place that used that option without it being explained to students when they signed up, not something we have clarified yet.  If I knew the rules were I would have to do a certain amount of pushups, or squat thrusts if I were late, so be it.  Even if it were explained to me just as I arrived late, I would just do it and resolve to ensure I wasn't late any more.


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Doing various exercises due to being late for an MA class isn’t strictly punishment in every dojo.  Depending on how late a student is to our class, he/she may have to do more exercises before they’re allowed on the floor.  Why?  As a warmup.  If you walk in and everyone is in the middle of doing 100 roundhouse kicks during basics, you shouldn’t just jump right into it.  That would be a great way to pull something.  My CI in that instance will have the student do some pushups, jumping jacks, etc. then stretch a bit on their own before lining up.  Punishment or not is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Nothing cultish about making someone warm up adequately before joining the physical activity.


and if that's the same warm up as every one else. Did, that its not and won't be considered a punishments


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Negative attitude for minor punishment (that would help me in the long run) just wouldn't enter my mind.  I guess I am just wired different.
> 
> Of course, I never knew any place that used that option without it being explained to students when they signed up, not something we have clarified yet.  If I knew the rules were I would have to do a certain amount of pushups, or squat thrusts if I were late, so be it.  Even if it were explained to me just as I arrived late, I would just do it and resolve to ensure I wasn't late any more.


but that has no logic , if say , doing 20 additional push ups, helps you, as a late comer, then 20 addition push ups will help all the students who turned up on time as well. There is no reason to treat the late comer differently, unless it it to use him as an example to ensure the " correct behaviour from him and others in the future


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Negative attitude for minor punishment (that would help me in the long run) just wouldn't enter my mind.  I guess I am just wired different.
> 
> Of course, I never knew any place that used that option without it being explained to students when they signed up, not something we have clarified yet.  If I knew the rules were I would have to do a certain amount of pushups, or squat thrusts if I were late, so be it.  Even if it were explained to me just as I arrived late, I would just do it and resolve to ensure I wasn't late any more.


if someone is paying me to be there then that might be ok, though when they tried that at work, i retaliated by screwing the foremans favour cup to his desk 

if I'm paying THEM, then they are the employee, I'm not going to be punished by the hired help, any more than i would let my Gardner punish me for having to many weeds


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## JR 137 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> if someone is paying me to be there then that might be ok, though when they tried that at work, i retaliated by screwing the foremans favour cup to his desk
> 
> if I'm paying THEM, then they are the employee, I'm not going to be punished by the hired help, any more than i would let my Gardner punish me for having to many weeds


Completely different things here.  The gardener takes care of your garden and only your garden (while he’s at your garden).  The MA teacher teaches several people at the same time.  One person showing up late disrupts everyone there.  I’m a school teacher and it’s the same thing - a student walks in after I’ve begun, and everyone gets disrupted, even if they quietly walk in without saying a word.  There’s obviously degrees of the disruption, but it’s still a disruption that effects everyone else and not just the late student.


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## JR 137 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> and if that's the same warm up as every one else. Did, that its not and won't be considered a punishments


It’s not the same warmup as everyone else did.  If they did every single thing the rest of the class did, they’d never catch up.  It’s a condensed warmup to strike the balance of being warm enough and getting in as quickly as possible.

There’s a couple that comes to class 10 minutes late every Tuesday night due to their work and childcare schedule.  The teacher knows this and finds it acceptable.  It’s better to take 80 minutes of a 90 minute class than miss the whole thing.  They do the required pushups, squats, stretches, etc. as a warmup, not as punishment.  Their warmup on Tuesdays is more intense, but not harder when all things are considered.

And if it is used as punishment and/or a deterrent, it’s usually stated up front when the student first joins.  If they don’t like the policy, they can find another place.  Same with all of these policies you seem to take issue with.  That’s not a cult.  It’s “this is what we do and how we do it.  If it fits your idea of the right way, welcome aboard.  If not, all the best to you.”  An entire school or any organization shouldn’t change what they do because one person takes issue with it.  If that were the case, no place would ever function for very long.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> but that has no logic , if say , doing 20 additional push ups, helps you, as a late comer, then 20 addition push ups will help all the students who turned up on time as well. There is no reason to treat the late comer differently, unless it it to use him as an example to ensure the " correct behaviour from him and others in the future



And ensuring correct behavior would be wrong? 

I have engaged in activities where if one person screwed up, all accepted the same punishment.  Granted, that was usually to encourage others to help the person being punished through group activities, such as giving him out of class instruction, or additional unpleasantness.  But that was to encourage a different dynamic in the group.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> if someone is paying me to be there then that might be ok, though when they tried that at work, i retaliated by screwing the foremans favour cup to his desk
> 
> if I'm paying THEM, then they are the employee, I'm not going to be punished by the hired help, any more than i would let my Gardner punish me for having to many weeds



What was your foreman's reaction?  Did he get a big laugh out of it and you two become best of friends?

As to paying a teacher, that may be, but usually part of that is the teacher gets to set the rules you are to obey or that teacher gets to decline to teach you.


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> What was your foreman's reaction?  Did he get a big laugh out of it and you two become best of friends?
> 
> As to paying a teacher, that may be, but usually part of that is the teacher gets to set the rules you are to obey or that teacher gets to decline to teach you.


no it was the star of a war that lasted for months,it only finished when he couldn't take the worry of which of his belongings would be screwed to the desk or disappear next and took early retirement every one else thought it was funny when i took the door off his office and he had to go and find it


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## jobo (Feb 5, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> It’s not the same warmup as everyone else did.  If they did every single thing the rest of the class did, they’d never catch up.  It’s a condensed warmup to strike the balance of being warm enough and getting in as quickly as possible.
> 
> There’s a couple that comes to class 10 minutes late every Tuesday night due to their work and childcare schedule.  The teacher knows this and finds it acceptable.  It’s better to take 80 minutes of a 90 minute class than miss the whole thing.  They do the required pushups, squats, stretches, etc. as a warmup, not as punishment.  Their warmup on Tuesdays is more intense, but not harder when all things are considered.
> 
> And if it is used as punishment and/or a deterrent, it’s usually stated up front when the student first joins.  If they don’t like the policy, they can find another place.  Same with all of these policies you seem to take issue with.  That’s not a cult.  It’s “this is what we do and how we do it.  If it fits your idea of the right way, welcome aboard.  If not, all the best to you.”  An entire school or any organization shouldn’t change what they do because one person takes issue with it.  If that were the case, no place would ever function for very long.


having policies or rules doesn't stop it being a cult, in fact cults are big on " policies"

in a matter of fact, that if you are paying someone and they punish you for breaking their rules, then you are a cult member, i cant think of any other situation were a,customer would be punished for being late, can you?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> see above, its not benifocal f it puts them off the notion than exercise. Is a fun activerty done for fun.
> 
> they should reward them with press ups for good behaviour, and exclude them for bad


As I said, that part is valid. Using push-ups as reward wouldn't work, either, though rewarding them for doing push-ups probably would.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> but participating in sport, IS a societal norm, so the culture of sports teams that behave much the same as each other is normal by the stabdards of that society


Participating in MA has become nearly as normal as sports. People aren't usually surprised to find someone they know is involved in MA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> ma is a normal, as its seems its the only sport that inflicts behaviours from a different country and a different century, that is nit normal in sport
> 
> nb that should say abnormal, i can't edit at the moment


Many of the rules in sports are grounded in something from some other culture. If someone plays cricket in the US (far more rare than MA), are they suddenly part of a cult?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> if someone is paying me to be there then that might be ok, though when they tried that at work, i retaliated by screwing the foremans favour cup to his desk
> 
> if I'm paying THEM, then they are the employee, I'm not going to be punished by the hired help, any more than i would let my Gardner punish me for having to many weeds


You seem to miss the actual point of the punishment (which you correctly labeled it). MA isn't all about fighting. Most instructors (probably especially those teaching kids) want to help develop good live lessons and practices. Being on time is one of those habits that helps out in most situations, and is also good for the MA class (both for the individual and for those training with them). Most folks will hurry up a bit more to avoid having to do 20 push-ups.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> no it was the star of a war that lasted for months,it only finished when he couldn't take the worry of which of his belongings would be screwed to the desk or disappear next and took early retirement every one else thought it was funny when i took the door off his office and he had to go and find it


All sounds pretty childish. Would've been much easier (and more productive) to be cooperative.


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## JR 137 (Feb 5, 2018)

jobo said:


> having policies or rules doesn't stop it being a cult, in fact cults are big on " policies"
> 
> in a matter of fact, that if you are paying someone and they punish you for breaking their rules, then you are a cult member, i cant think of any other situation were a,customer would be punished for being late, can you?


I can.  How about a doctor making you reschedule your appointment if you’re not there within a reasonable time.  How about a restaurant canceling your reservation if you’re not on time.  How about an airline giving away your seat and charging you a fee to re-book if you miss your flight.

I could keep going, but I think you get the gist of it.  I’ll most likely get a “bit that’s different, they’re not making you do pushups.”  My preemptive response - if you’re penalized, it’s punishment.  And you’re a paying customer.  Just like the dojo or any other “cult” you proclaim, if you don’t agree with the policy, you go elsewhere.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I can.  How about a doctor making you reschedule your appointment if you’re not there within a reasonable time.  How about a restaurant canceling your reservation if you’re not on time.  How about an airline giving away your seat and charging you a fee to re-book if you miss your flight.
> 
> I could keep going, but I think you get the gist of it.  I’ll most likely get a “bit that’s different, they’re not making you do pushups.”  My preemptive response - if you’re penalized, it’s punishment.  And you’re a paying customer.  Just like the dojo or any other “cult” you proclaim, if you don’t agree with the policy, you go elsewhere.


Good examples.

And as for the "that's different", most kids play on sports teams they (or their parents) pay for them to play on. And physical exercise as punishment has long been a go-to correction for inattention, tardiness, etc. in that environment.


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I can.  How about a doctor making you reschedule your appointment if you’re not there within a reasonable time.  How about a restaurant canceling your reservation if you’re not on time.  How about an airline giving away your seat and charging you a fee to re-book if you miss your flight.
> 
> I could keep going, but I think you get the gist of it.  I’ll most likely get a “bit that’s different, they’re not making you do pushups.”  My preemptive response - if you’re penalized, it’s punishment.  And you’re a paying customer.  Just like the dojo or any other “cult” you proclaim, if you don’t agree with the policy, you go elsewhere.


that's not like with like, if the instructor said, sorry come back next week or don't come at all, then it would be similar,or if the airline said we will let you on if you unblock the toilets, that's similar. Cancelling a contract through frustration is not the same as extracting physical punishment


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> no it was the star of a war that lasted for months,it only finished when he couldn't take the worry of which of his belongings would be screwed to the desk or disappear next and took early retirement every one else thought it was funny when i took the door off his office and he had to go and find it



Sounds like bullying to me. 

Did he know it was you or did you make sure he never knew who was doing it?


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Good examples.
> 
> And as for the "that's different", most kids play on sports teams they (or their parents) pay for them to play on. And physical exercise as punishment has long been a go-to correction for inattention, tardiness, etc. in that environment.


in past decades maybe,but its a) counter productive as above and b) would be considered as bullying in the century. Arguing that people used to do bad things to children in the past doesn't really support your point to well


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Sounds like bullying to me.
> 
> Did he know it was you or did you make sure he never knew who was doing it?


he knew it was me, he couldn't catch me doing it,
he starts bullying me by taking a quarter hours pay of me if i was one minute late, or more commonly an hours pay if i was half an hour late. As nobody did anything at all for the first hour, this was just a petty vindictive rule that was of no benefit to the company, further it removed my good will to stay late with out pay if required, so it harmed the company.

he was universal llu unpopular even his boss hated him, which is how i got away with  so much, when he left, ll got back o normal, i tuned up when i felt like it, and did all the work that the others wouldn't do as it was difficult/ dirty. An was the new foremans and blue eyed boy, so much so that the other wouldn't talk to me 
I'm trying to remember which was the best trick,???? When i cut one of the selves of his coat or when i put engine oil in his boots , there are so many


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> in past decades maybe,but its a) counter productive as above and b) would be considered as bullying in the century. Arguing that people used to do bad things to children in the past doesn't really support your point to well


I'm pretty sure this practice is still common. I know of no parent who'd think their kid was being bullied for having to run a lap or two because they were late to practice. As for it being counter-productive, there are two sides to that. There's definitely a counter-productive element, but there's a productive one, as well. And whether it's productive or not isn't really relevant to this point. You've already said sports aren't cults, yet coaches resort to many of the same practices as MA instructors. At worst (if we go with your assertion that this is not common practice in sports now), MA instructors are behind the times.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> he knew it was me, he couldn't catch me doing it,
> he starts bullying me by taking a quarter hours pay of me if i was one minute late, or more commonly an hours pay if i was half an hour late. As nobody did anything at all for the first hour, this was just a petty vindictive rule that was of no benefit to the company, further it removed my good will to stay late with out pay if required, so it harmed the company.
> 
> he was universal llu unpopular even his boss hated him, which is how i got away with  so much, when he left, ll got back o normal, i tuned up when i felt like it, and did all the work that the others wouldn't do as it was difficult/ dirty. An was the new foremans and blue eyed boy, so much so that the other wouldn't talk to me
> I'm trying to remember which was the best trick,???? When i cut one of the selves of his coat or when i put engine oil in his boots , there are so many


Ah. You just didn't like the rules. And rather than either complying (you chose to work there, after all) or finding other work, you decided to bully the guy responsible for upholding rules.

Very mature.


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm pretty sure this practice is still common. I know of no parent who'd think their kid was being bullied for having to run a lap or two because they were late to practice. As for it being counter-productive, there are two sides to that. There's definitely a counter-productive element, but there's a productive one, as well. And whether it's productive or not isn't really relevant to this point. You've already said sports aren't cults, yet coaches resort to many of the same practices as MA instructors. At worst (if we go with your assertion that this is not common practice in sports now), MA instructors are behind the times.


 if your putting it forward as evidence that its a societal norm, then you need to evidence that it is indeed a societal norm, 

physical punishment by an organisation is always wrong, its much the reason they don't punish people by flogging any more, its most certainly a breach of the Childs human rights, maybe its an American thing?  I would most certainly consider it bullying both on a physical and mental level, and would be having a word with the person involved, to see if they would like to be physical punished 

our gym teacher who i mention earlier, who like to punish people by making them run round a muddy field in the freezing cold, had a change of heart, when someone's elder brother turn up and gave him a kicking. Seems its wasn't such a good idea after all


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> if your putting it forward as evidence that its a societal norm, then you need to evidence that it is indeed a societal norm,
> 
> physical punishment by an organisation is always wrong, its much the reason they don't punish people by flogging any more, its most certainly a breach of the Childs human rights, maybe its an American thing?  I would most certainly consider it bullying both on a physical and mental level, and would be having a word with the person involved, to see if they would like to be physical punished
> 
> our gym teacher who i mention earlier, who like to punish people by making them run round a muddy field in the freezing cold, had a change of heart, when someone's elder brother turn up and gave him a kicking. Seems its wasn't such a good idea after all


That someone got a beating doesn't determine whether a practice is a good idea or not. And I addressed the idea of norms in my prior post, but you ignored that point, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Oddly, what you consider bullying doesn't include your own bullying behavior.


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That someone got a beating doesn't determine whether a practice is a good idea or not. And I addressed the idea of norms in my prior post, but you ignored that point, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Oddly, what you consider bullying doesn't include your own bullying behavior.


I'm not a) a child and b) not an organisation, and c ) my retaliation against some one who had far more power than I was not physical punishment,

i used to put drawing pins in my dads boots, as well, that was as much as i could manage till i was 17, and then strangely enough his physical bullying stopped as well after a punch on the nose.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm not a) a child and b) not an organisation, and c ) my retaliation against some one who had far more power than I was not physical punishment,
> 
> i used to put drawing pins in my dads boots, as well, that was as much as i could manage till i was 17, and then strangely enough his physical bullying stopped as well after a punch on the nose.


Those are two different things. You're an adult now, and you still resort to bullying people when you don't like their rules. Your attitude toward the visiting instructor was much the same.


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Those are two different things. You're an adult now, and you still resort to bullying people when you don't like their rules. Your attitude toward the visiting instructor was much the same.


she was attempting to bully me,i just refused to allow that to happen, that of course caused her some phycological distress, but that what happens when people who think they have aurthority to make you punish yourself find they haven't, even more so if you laugh at them,


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> she was attempting to bully me,i just refused to allow that to happen, that of course caused her some phycological distress, but that what happens when people who think they have aurthority to make you punish yourself find they haven't, even more so if you laugh at them,


I understand that you don't see the distinction.


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## JR 137 (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> she was attempting to bully me,i just refused to allow that to happen, that of course caused her some phycological distress, but that what happens when people who think they have aurthority to make you punish yourself find they haven't, even more so if you laugh at them,


Curiosity question... is there anyone you don’t have these similar issues with?  It seems like you need to “straighten out “ the world.

You seem to take issue with people who “physically punish” those who don’t comply, yet there’s no shortage of examples of you physically punishing those who don’t follow your rules.


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Curiosity question... is there anyone you don’t have these similar issues with?  It seems like you need to “straighten out “ the world.
> 
> You seem to take issue with people who “physically punish” those who don’t comply, yet there’s no shortage of examples of you physically punishing those who don’t follow your rules.



i don't have, nor seek to impose rules on others, with the exception of i react badly to people who try and bully me or mine, or people in general,

i also have a problem with petty rules that serve no particular purpose, in which case i generally choose it ignore it, this has brought me into occasional conflict with employers, etc. I generaly win these and they come to accept that they need two sets of rules, one for me and one for everyone else. This is mostly because. I'm extremely good at what i do and can walk out of the door and get another job at any time i choose


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> i don't have, nor seek to impose rules on others, with the exception of i react badly to people who try and bully me or mine, or people in general,
> 
> i also have a problem with petty rules that serve no particular purpose, in which case i generally choose it ignore it, this has brought me into occasional conflict with employers, etc. I generaly win these and they come to accept that they need two sets of rules, one for me and one for everyone else. This is mostly because. I'm extremely good at what i do and can walk out of the door and get another job at any time i choose


And you don't care about the impact you have on the organization long-term. Don't forget that part of the situation.


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And you don't care about the impact you have on the organization long-term. Don't forget that part of the situation.


well most organisations benefit from having less pointless rules, just as they do by treating adults as adults, I'm an agent of change or possibly a catalyst


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> well most organisations benefit from having less pointless rules, just as they do by treating adults as adults, I'm an agent of change or possibly a catalyst


Except you really don't care about changing the rules - just so long as you don't have to comply. And often there's a reason why the rule is necessary to the organization that's not obvious unless you consider the implication if it goes away. But your attitude is clear on that.


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Except you really don't care about changing the rules - just so long as you don't have to comply. And often there's a reason why the rule is necessary to the organization that's not obvious unless you consider the implication if it goes away. But your attitude is clear on that.


I'm a catalyst, catalysts don't care, that's not there job.

but generaly speaking, all rules should be challenged, if they can't be justified, then they have no justification to exist.


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm a catalyst, catalysts don't care, that's not there job.
> 
> but generaly speaking, all rules should be challenged, if they can't be justified, then they have no justification to exist.


here is a shortened version of a,discussion i had at one place of work

them,,,, you can't park there

me, why not

them coz there is a sign

why is there a sign

to tell you , you can't park there

why can't i park there

coz there is a,sign

when the only justification for a rule is there is a,sign, and the only justification for a,sign is there is a rule.
then nether the sign nor the rule should exist


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm a catalyst, catalysts don't care, that's not there job.
> 
> but generaly speaking, all rules should be challenged, if they can't be justified, then they have no justification to exist.


No, you're not a catalyst. You're a self-serving bully.

See, I'm one of the guys who goes out and actually challenges rules. I teach managers to challenge every rule, because irrational rules make work harder to do (and their job is to make it easier to do). But I teach them how to do it rationally, rather than based on personal desire. You don't care about the organization - you've made that clear in past posts and in this thread.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> here is a shortened version of a,discussion i had at one place of work
> 
> them,,,, you can't park there
> 
> ...


The problem isn't the rule. The problem is that they don't know the reason for the rule. And neither do you. Until someone figures out the reason - or establishes (beyond this bit of dialog) that there's not one - simply ignoring the rule is not a good idea.


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> No, you're not a catalyst. You're a self-serving bully.
> 
> See, I'm one of the guys who goes out and actually challenges rules. I teach managers to challenge every rule, because irrational rules make work harder to do (and their job is to make it easier to do). But I teach them how to do it rationally, rather than based on personal desire. You don't care about the organization - you've made that clear in past posts and in this thread.


the two arnt mutually exclusive,at least not under your defintion of catalyst


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The problem isn't the rule. The problem is that they don't know the reason for the rule. And neither do you. Until someone figures out the reason - or establishes (beyond this bit of dialog) that there's not one - simply ignoring the rule is not a good idea.


so all rules, no matter how silly should be followed, until someone comes up with a reason, that would mean if they never come up with a reason, you would have to follow a silly rule for ever.

surely the rule should be with drawn until such time a reason for its existence is discovered


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> so all rules, no matter how silly should be followed, until someone comes up with a reason, that would mean if they never come up with a reason, you would have to follow a silly rule for ever.
> 
> surely the rule should be with drawn until such time a reason for its existence is discovered


See, you're assuming the rule is silly, without finding out why it exists. Some of the silliest rules are compliance issues. They're verifiably silly, but failing to comply can cost the organization a fair bit of money. Again, you not knowing and disregarding it shows you don't care about the organization - just about your own snowflake ability to not have to bend to rules you don't like.

As I said above, the issue is that they don't know the reason for the rule. Their job is to find out why the rule exists, and if there's not a good reason, to work to get it changed (or just change it or override it, if that's within their authority).


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> the two arnt mutually exclusive,at least not under your defintion of catalyst


No, not mutually exclusive. But you are not a catalyst for positive change, because you don't really think through what you're doing. You just do what you want, because you don't personally like the rules. If others follow you, what they're most likely to do is start ignoring the rules they don't like. Then you're just a catalyst for a breakdown of structure and effectiveness.


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> See, you're assuming the rule is silly, without finding out why it exists. Some of the silliest rules are compliance issues. They're verifiably silly, but failing to comply can cost the organization a fair bit of money. Again, you not knowing and disregarding it shows you don't care about the organization - just about your own snowflake ability to not have to bend to rules you don't like.
> 
> As I said above, the issue is that they don't know the reason for the rule. Their job is to find out why the rule exists, and if there's not a good reason, to work to get it changed (or just change it or override it, if that's within their authority).


well a rule either has an obvious and easily found justification OR it is silly,

the other stock answer to why a,sign exists, is " health and safety, which then demands me to ask, under which of the 147 sections of the health and safety at work act is the rule required, the never ever have an answer to that, never.i invite them to recommence  th conversation when they know, they never do,


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> No, not mutually exclusive. But you are not a catalyst for positive change, because you don't really think through what you're doing. You just do what you want, because you don't personally like the rules. If others follow you, what they're most likely to do is start ignoring the rules they don't like. Then you're just a catalyst for a breakdown of structure and effectiveness.


now you are making up definrions, there is no requirement for a catalyst, to invoke POSITIVE change, nit even under your much varying defintion


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> well a rule either has an obvious and easily found justification OR it is silly,


As I pointed out, those two are not mutually exclusive. And, no, sometimes the reason isn't obvious to those it immediately affects. And sometimes the reason, once found, is sillier than the rule (those are among the rules that should be removed).



> the other stock answer to why a,sign exists, is " health and safety, which then demands me to ask, under which of the 147 sections of the health and safety at work act is the rule required, the never ever have an answer to that, never.i invite them to recommence  th conversation when they know, they never do,


And, again, the issue is that they don't know - unfortunately a common occurrence. Someone should know, and they should find out who that is, or they should get to work at removing the rule.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> now you are making up definrions, there is no requirement for a catalyst, to invoke POSITIVE change, nit even under your much varying defintion


Um, no. I didn't make up words. I said you're not a catalyst for positive change. I also said if you are a catalyst (that depends on whether change occurs), it's for a breakdown. So I didn't make a claim that a catalyst had to be positive. You just didn't read past what you wanted to argue about. You know, like you often do.


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> As I pointed out, those two are not mutually exclusive. And, no, sometimes the reason isn't obvious to those it immediately affects. And sometimes the reason, once found, is sillier than the rule (those are among the rules that should be removed).
> 
> 
> And, again, the issue is that they don't know - unfortunately a common occurrence. Someone should know, and they should find out who that is, or they should get to work at removing the rule.


no they ARE exclusive, it can't be a rule that has an obvious justification and be silly at the same Tim. It has to be one OR THE OTHER


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Um, no. I didn't make up words. I said you're not a catalyst for positive change. I also said if you are a catalyst (that depends on whether change occurs), it's for a breakdown. So I didn't make a claim that a catalyst had to be positive. You just didn't read past what you wanted to argue about. You know, like you often do.


well in that case, you appeared to have wasted both our time, by confirming i wasn't what i hadn't claimed to be.

strangely enough, a substantial part of the job I'm paid to do is to effect culture, change, its just sometimes i change the culture in ways they hadn't predicted, though job descriptions are so vague its hard to argue


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> no they ARE exclusive, it can't be a rule that has an obvious justification and be silly at the same Tim. It has to be one OR THE OTHER


I gave you an example. If the rule is a result of regulation (to avoid fines and penalties), the rule can still be quite silly, but there's a very good reason for it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> well in that case, you appeared to have wasted both our time, by confirming i wasn't what i hadn't claimed to be.
> 
> strangely enough, a substantial part of the job I'm paid to do is to effect culture, change, its just sometimes i change the culture in ways they hadn't predicted, though job descriptions are so vague its hard to argue


I suspect the culture change you effect isn't good in the long run, since you seem to not understand basic principles of how organizations work.


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I suspect the culture change you effect isn't good in the long run, since you seem to not understand basic principles of how organizations work.


i understand very well how they run, i just don't always think that's how it should be run.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> i understand very well how they run, i just don't always think that's how it should be run.


That's not what I said, but I get that you don't get the difference.


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's not what I said, but I get that you don't get the difference.


you said i didn't understand the basic principles of organisations, and I'm saying i do and have a post grad diploma to verify that


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> you said i didn't understand the basic principles of organisations, and I'm saying i do and have a post grad diploma to verify that


That's not what I said, either, but it's closer. And a diploma means you were able to get through the classes. I've met plenty of MBA (Masters in Business Administration) who didn't really understand the principles they discussed in school.

Here's the kicker: I suspect you understand stuff better than you pretend on here. But if that's true, you can't be half the jerk you claim to be at work, because that attitude doesn't allow you to create, initiate, catalyze, or contribute to controlled cultural change. I suspect you know that, but if I take your posts as true tales, then you don't understand that or just don't care.


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's not what I said, either, but it's closer. And a diploma means you were able to get through the classes. I've met plenty of MBA (Masters in Business Administration) who didn't really understand the principles they discussed in school.
> 
> Here's the kicker: I suspect you understand stuff better than you pretend on here. But if that's true, you can't be half the jerk you claim to be at work, because that attitude doesn't allow you to create, initiate, catalyze, or contribute to controlled cultural change. I suspect you know that, but if I take your posts as true tales, then you don't understand that or just don't care.


well that is what you said, with the emphasis on BASIC, completing my diploma certainly requires me to have a basic grasp of the principals,

i believe the prime responsibility of an organisation is to make work a enjoyable and rewarding experience for their employees and from that success and profit will naturally follow. As part of that culture Change, i first make sure its an enjoyable and rewarding experience for me and then look to spread the joy around if i can.obviously if it an either or choice, i choose my happiness


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> , i first make sure its an enjoyable and rewarding experience for me and then look to spread the joy around



lol lol lol lol   yeah as if your just the santa claws of joy around here.  

i am not saying your not a good guy in real life but here you have all the traits of a narcissitic sociopath. i would think you would be better in the aquisition and take over business with downsizing as a side line


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> lol lol lol lol   yeah as if your just the santa claws of joy around here.
> 
> i am not saying your not a good guy in real life but here you have all the traits of a narcissitic sociopath. i would think you would be better in the aquisition and take over business with downsizing as a side line


strangely enough that what i have done a great deal of work in

specificaly privatisation, of government organisations, hospitals, prisons that sort of thing


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> well that is what you said, with the emphasis on BASIC, completing my diploma certainly requires me to have a basic grasp of the principals,
> 
> i believe the prime responsibility of an organisation is to make work a enjoyable and rewarding experience for their employees and from that success and profit will naturally follow. As part of that culture Change, i first make sure its an enjoyable and rewarding experience for me and then look to spread the joy around if i can.obviously if it an either or choice, i choose my happiness


As I said, I suspect you understand the concepts much better than you let on in this forum. I also suspect you're not so much the loose cannon you put forth in your posts. Understand that I am either right on both counts, or wrong on both counts - the behavior you claim is counter to the job you have, so you can't have it both ways.


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> As I said, I suspect you understand the concepts much better than you let on in this forum. I also suspect you're not so much the loose cannon you put forth in your posts. Understand that I am either right on both counts, or wrong on both counts - the behavior you claim is counter to the job you have, so you can't have it both ways.


my immense benefit to the organisation seems to outway my personality querks, that and i know where the bodies are buried, metaphorically speaking


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