# Pocket Stick usefullness and tactics



## Apollo (Apr 25, 2006)

I've seen a few references recently to these. My own training touches on them, but doesn't really get into the "meat" as it were. What are your thoughts on them and how do you use them?


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Apr 25, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> I've seen a few references recently to these. My own training touches on them, but doesn't really get into the "meat" as it were. What are your thoughts on them and how do you use them?


I just posted this in the flashlight thread. It applies here:

The ever elegant Don Rearic wrote a rather interesting article on such things. http://www.donrearic.com/koppostick.html

It details the use, and effectiveness of a "pocket stick" as well as contains several diagrams and photos.

He also wrote a bit on the Yawara.
http://www.donrearic.com/yawara.html


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 25, 2006)

Couple of videos from CebuWest

Sal & Bill Lockflow with Pocket Stick (5.23 MB MPG)

Sal Disarms Bill While Using Pocket Stick (3.11 MP MPG)

I got a pair from Sal. Very Nice.


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 25, 2006)

i've seen 'em and trained with them a little bit.  not so very different from kubatons.

personally i don't much see the point.  they don't hit enough harder than i do without a weapon to be worth the space they take up. 

on the other hand, training with something like that will pretty much guarantee you can improvise a weapon just about anywhere, anytime.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 25, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> personally i don't much see the point. they don't hit enough harder than i do without a weapon to be worth the space they take up.


Its a good weapon for people with poor fighting skills.

I find it more of a hindrance than a help, it flops around when I use an open hand strike and is defiantly in the way when I grip or hold.


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## MJS (Apr 25, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> I've seen a few references recently to these. My own training touches on them, but doesn't really get into the "meat" as it were. What are your thoughts on them and how do you use them?


 
Personally, I see nothing wrong with them.  They're right up there with other improvised weapons, many of which we carry with us or are already around us, on a daily basis.  

They'll certainly be a plus for controlling and limb destructions.

Like everything, some will like them and some will not.  

Mike


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## KenpoTex (Apr 25, 2006)

I think that small impact weapons like kubatons, koppos, etc. are very effective.  They increase the pressure, therefore the damage inflicted, of a strike to a great degree.  The methods utilized with purpose designed impact weapons transer readily to improvised objects such as small flashlights, markers & pens, a closed folding-knife, etc.  

While I own a variety of small impact weapons, I don't carry any of them on a regular basis.  My reasoning is that if I were to need a weapon, I wouldn't _choose_ to deploy an impact weapon when I could use either my knives, or my firearm.  I do carry a flashlight and a pen which could be used if I couldn't access a "real" weapon.  Basically, if the situation has reached the point where I had to deploy a weapon, I would want to respond with the tool that would deliver the maximum amount of force to the target.  As a general rule, I feel that knives and firearms are better deadly force "options" than are impact weapons.

With regard to application, I like methods that share a "commonality of motion" with my empty hand skills.  Basically, I allow part of the tool to protrude from the bottom of my fist and strike any targets that I would normally hit with either a hammerfist or a handsword (face, neck, throat, temple, ribs, groin, etc.)

just my $0.02


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 25, 2006)

A pocket stick or any rigid object that fits in the hand (and, ideally, extends past one or both sides of the fist) is a remarkably effective self-defense tool.  I've seen it dismissed out of ignorance; anyone claiming that it is not an effective implement simply doesn't understand the tool or its application (which is really very simple).

Here are some more links that supplement Don's site (which I administrate):

*The Martialist: Carrying Pocket Sticks*

*The Martialist: Pocket Stick Striking*

*The Martialist: Making Your Own Polymer Pocket Stick*

*The Martialist: Making Your Own Koppo Wrap*

My Paladin Press book, *Flashlight Fighting*, is based on the same principles (outlined in *this article*).


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## arnisador (Apr 25, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> personally i don't much see the point.  they don't hit enough harder than i do without a weapon



I think they can make a difference. They may not hit 'harder' but they are more rigid and will cause more damage to the opponent and less to the bones in your own hand. But, I wouldn't carry one just for that.



> on the other hand, training with something like that will pretty much guarantee you can improvise a weapon just about anywhere, anytime.



Also, if you carry a folder but lack the time to open it in a particular confrontation then you may find yourself holding, in effect, a pocket stick.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> A pocket stick or any rigid object that fits in the hand (and, ideally, extends past one or both sides of the fist) is a remarkably effective self-defense tool. I've seen it dismissed out of ignorance; anyone claiming that it is not an effective implement simply doesn't understand the tool or its application (which is really very simple).
> 
> Here are some more links that supplement Don's site (which I administrate):
> 
> ...


-What do you base your "remarkably effective" claim on?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Couple of videos from CebuWest
> 
> Sal & Bill Lockflow with Pocket Stick (5.23 MB MPG)
> 
> ...


-Videos like this are why I'm opposed to their civilian carry. IMO none of that looked effective to put it nicely. Demonstrating on a willing uke and making him grimace is not effective SD use.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I think they can make a difference. They may not hit 'harder' but they are more rigid and will cause more damage to the opponent and less to the bones in your own hand. But, I wouldn't carry one just for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if you carry a folder but lack the time to open it in a particular confrontation then you may find yourself holding, in effect, a pocket stick.


-I think this is a fair argument, even though I disagree. I disagree because the damaging striking only comes with hammer fist strikes. Hammer fists are less than ideal strikes imo. I also don't see how increasing local damage makes them fit into civilian SD usage.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 25, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I think they can make a difference. They may not hit 'harder' but they are more rigid and will cause more damage to the opponent and less to the bones in your own hand. But, I wouldn't carry one just for that.



I think the question becomes is the trade off worth it?  Yes, you may get a little more "omph" to your strikes, but at the expense of being able to use that hand for anything other then striking.  Grappling with a short stick is a hinderance, yes diggin the end into certain places can be fun, but there is a definate trade off as you loose much usefulness of your hands.

On the other hand someone that doesn't have any skill, basically just a panic and adrenhaline reaction.  White knuckle and swing with everything sort of deal, they would be very useful compared to not having one.

All depends on how you fight whether one is useful or not...


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I think the question becomes is the trade off worth it? Yes, you may get a little more "omph" to your strikes, but at the expense of being able to use that hand for anything other then striking. Grappling with a short stick is a hinderance, yes diggin the end into certain places can be fun, but there is a definate trade off as you loose much usefulness of your hands.
> 
> On the other hand someone that doesn't have any skill, basically just a panic and adrenhaline reaction. White knuckle and swing with everything sort of deal, they would be very useful compared to not having one.
> 
> All depends on how you fight whether one is useful or not...


-I basically agree with your first paragraph. I would imagine those that are pro pocket stick would say to just "koppoize" the stick so you don't have to worry about holding it. The problem with that is you'd have to always have it on your hand to have it when you needed it. That seems silly and paranoid to me.

-Your second paragraph I would disagree with. A wild swinging untrained person is usually missing their target, so any slight advantage from the pocket stick wouldn't matter. Against another untrained spaz, it could in theory prove usefull. But its not likely imo, and certainly not in context for a civilian trying to defend himself from the hypothetical badguy.


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## shesulsa (Apr 25, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I think this is a fair argument, even though I disagree. I disagree because the damaging striking only comes with hammer fist strikes.



You can do plenty damage with forward thrusting strikes as well if you're traditionally trained, of course.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> You can do plenty damage with forward thrusting strikes as well if you're traditionally trained, of course.


-That's a low power strike compaired to a hook, cross, or uppercut.


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## shesulsa (Apr 25, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -That's a low power strike compaired to a hook, cross, or uppercut.



With a stick, folder or empty hand?


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 25, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -That's a low power strike compaired to a hook, cross, or uppercut.


Concentration of force when done properly can make even low-power strikes hurt.  Take a low power shot to the throat, you'll at least pause. Take a low power nut shot, it still hurts, again, maybe not enough to end things, but enough to force a pause.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> With a stick, folder or empty hand?


-With anything other than a cutting blade of some sort.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Concentration of force when done properly can make even low-power strikes hurt. Take a low power shot to the throat, you'll at least pause. Take a low power nut shot, it still hurts, again, maybe not enough to end things, but enough to force a pause.


-I agree to an extent. But "hurt" just isn't enough imo.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 25, 2006)

Not every strike must kill.  I'll take deadening a hand, and arm, stunning so I can disentangle or create space, etc. Take out his capacity to inflict damage, you can then control the remainder of the confrontation.

I've played with various 'stick substitutes', pens, markers, etc while working some techniques. Using the set I have, we did some stuff wearing vambraces and gloves, targeting the forearm and back of the hand.  Even through the armour, the strikes were felt. No tingle, but a few bruises did happen.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Not every strike must kill. I'll take deadening a hand, and arm, stunning so I can disentangle or create space, etc. Take out his capacity to inflict damage, you can then control the remainder of the confrontation.
> 
> I've played with various 'stick substitutes', pens, markers, etc while working some techniques. Using the set I have, we did some stuff wearing vambraces and gloves, targeting the forearm and back of the hand. Even through the armour, the strikes were felt. No tingle, but a few bruises did happen.


-I wasn't trying to immply killing is needed. Pain and bruises will not stop a determined attacker.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 25, 2006)

I don't understand how a pocket stick could help with a joint lock. I can only see it hindering the grips necessary to grapple. Can anyone explain this claim?


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## shesulsa (Apr 25, 2006)

Sure.  The stick is the extension of the hand.  With a traditional grip, you would use one end of the short stick and place it over the arm (ulnar side or radial side, it doesn't matter) and use the stick instead of the hand to tighten the lock.


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## Flatlander (Apr 25, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> Pain and bruises will not stop a determined attacker.


Well then, you might as well turtle and die, because without a blade or gun, pain and bruises are all you're likely to get.

Why would anyone choose to eliminate an option?  It seems nonsensical.  Let's try a different tack here - please describe how you can be more effective without a blunt weapon.  You may choose to ignore the question, but that will demonstrate the integrity of your position.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 25, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Sure. The stick is the extension of the hand. With a traditional grip, you would use one end of the short stick and place it over the arm (ulnar side or radial side, it doesn't matter) and use the stick instead of the hand to tighten the lock.


 
I can't see that being any better then a empty handed grip, it seems weaker if anything. I can see the usefulness of pocket sticks for hammerfisting someone, but I can't see them helping grappling at all.

Anyone know where any pictures demonstrating pocket stick joint locks are?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Well then, you might as well turtle and die, because without a blade or gun, pain and bruises are all you're likely to get.
> 
> Why would anyone choose to eliminate an option? It seems nonsensical. Let's try a different tack here - please describe how you can be more effective without a blunt weapon. You may choose to ignore the question, but that will demonstrate the integrity of your position.


-I never ignore real questions that are on topic. What I mean is pain and bruises per the typical description of pocket stick use. What I have seen demonstrated and what I have seen pictures of is similar to the video clip links posted. They are worthless against a real resisting opponent. They may cause slight pain and bruising. They will not stop a person in attack mode. The only hope is striking with one and that, especially with a light plastic one, leaves a lot to be desired imo. Those tactical reasons, and their bad fit into SD strategy means they don't deserve serious consideration as an "option" imo. 

What I mean by SD strategy is the ideal of being able to carry less than lethal options and deadly force options. Pepper spray and empty hands are perfectly capable for less than lethal situations. A club, knife, or firearm or all 3 depending on your location/politics/laws/ability for deadly force. The pocket stick doesn't make sense anywhere imo. It adds little to a less than lethal situation, but could be considered an escalation. And it is no where near lethal enough for a situation requiring lethal force.

So I agree that, with all other things being equal, a guy with one has a tactical advantage over a guy without. My argument is that that tactical advantage is not enough to warrent carry because it is slight and because of the strategic reality of civilian SD. Eliminating a bad option is a good idea imo.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

I also agree with MardiGras Bandit that your creator give hand is better than a short stick for gripping.


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## frank raud (Apr 25, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> I can't see that being any better then a empty handed grip, it seems weaker if anything. I can see the usefulness of pocket sticks for hammerfisting someone, but I can't see them helping grappling at all.
> 
> Anyone know where any pictures demonstrating pocket stick joint locks are?


Get Tak Kubota's book Close Encounters.


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## Flatlander (Apr 25, 2006)

So, there's value in utilizing a pocket stick vs. no pocket stick, but your preference would be for using pepper spray instead.  Is that an accurate summary of your post?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> So, there's value in utilizing a pocket stick vs. no pocket stick, but your preference would be for using pepper spray instead. Is that an accurate summary of your post?


-Tactical advantage? Yes. SD value? No. I personally am undecided on pepper spray, but some people whose opinion I value, believe in it. It does provide greater distance than any other less than lethal "option".


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

frank raud said:
			
		

> Get Tak Kubota's book Close Encounters.


-I'll try to check this out at some point, but I do have my doubts. Got book reference from somebody that doesn't have a vested interest in their use?


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 25, 2006)

I just watched the videos of the joint lock techniques. The disarm was bad (but I _guess_ it is workable) and the lockflow thing was ridiculous. Not only were both the techniques terrible, the pocketstick was completely irrelevant to either one. It provided no extra leverage or power, if anything I'd guess it was in the way.

I tired to find a review of the book online, but couldn't. I did find a Kubotan site which said this: 





> For those proficient in martial arts that emphasize grappling and joint locks, the Kubotan provides added leverage. Wrist locks, arm bars, come-alongs, chokes, and leg locks instantly become more agonizing with the Kubotan. The Kubotan can be used to dig into the wrist or elbow joint. Similarly, a captured leg can immobilized with grinding pressure to the ankle or knee. In life threatening circumstances, the Kubotan can intensify choking techniques and, if need be, crush an assailant's trachea. Indeed, nearly all joint locking techniques common to Jujutsu and Aiki-Jutsu become easier to apply with the Kubotan.


 
No, no they don't. There is absolutely nothing useful a pocketstick can do to improve grappling techniques. Just for fun, I'm going to test my theory and grapple holding a minimag tommorow.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 25, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> No, no they don't. There is absolutely nothing useful a pocketstick can do to improve grappling techniques. Just for fun, I'm going to test my theory and grapple holding a minimag tommorow.



There is useful things you can do, but IMO you loose more useful things then you gain.


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## MJS (Apr 25, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I never ignore real questions that are on topic. What I mean is pain and bruises per the typical description of pocket stick use. What I have seen demonstrated and what I have seen pictures of is similar to the video clip links posted. They are worthless against a real resisting opponent. They may cause slight pain and bruising. They will not stop a person in attack mode. The only hope is striking with one and that, especially with a light plastic one, leaves a lot to be desired imo. Those tactical reasons, and their bad fit into SD strategy means they don't deserve serious consideration as an "option" imo.
> 
> What I mean by SD strategy is the ideal of being able to carry less than lethal options and deadly force options. Pepper spray and empty hands are perfectly capable for less than lethal situations. A club, knife, or firearm or all 3 depending on your location/politics/laws/ability for deadly force. The pocket stick doesn't make sense anywhere imo. It adds little to a less than lethal situation, but could be considered an escalation. And it is no where near lethal enough for a situation requiring lethal force.
> 
> So I agree that, with all other things being equal, a guy with one has a tactical advantage over a guy without. My argument is that that tactical advantage is not enough to warrent carry because it is slight and because of the strategic reality of civilian SD. Eliminating a bad option is a good idea imo.


 
Ronin, question for you.  Have you done any training with the pocket stick, or are you basing your opinion of it, off of what you've seen others do?  The reason I ask, is because it is possible for 2 people to be shown a technique, with one person having difficulty applying it, and the other having no toruble at all.  

I'm also a bit confused by your last paragraph.  You say that there is a tactical advantage to carrying one, but then you go on to say that its not enough to warrant carrying one?  

IMHO, I personally don't see the pocket stick as a fight stopper, but simply something to buy someone some time in between moves.  If it did no more than cause a momentary distraction, IMO, it would be worth it.

Just my .02

Mike


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## MJS (Apr 25, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> I don't understand how a pocket stick could help with a joint lock. I can only see it hindering the grips necessary to grapple. Can anyone explain this claim?


 
Depending on how its being used, it can be effective in a controlling situation.  Using something slightly longer, such as a Kali stick, this can in fact cause some pain.  Again, the majority of it is going to come down to a) being able to apply it, and b) having a knowledgeable teacher to show you the correct ways of using it.

Mike


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 25, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Ronin, question for you. Have you done any training with the pocket stick, or are you basing your opinion of it, off of what you've seen others do? The reason I ask, is because it is possible for 2 people to be shown a technique, with one person having difficulty applying it, and the other having no toruble at all.
> 
> IMHO, I personally don't see the pocket stick as a fight stopper, but simply something to buy someone some time in between moves. If it did no more than cause a momentary distraction, IMO, it would be worth it.
> Mike


 
IMO, the kubotan applied expertly to a vulnerable spot would very likely be a fight stopper. Depends who you come up against, though. Honestly, though, I'm not a big fan of using short sticks for joint locks - then again, I'm terrible at locks, anyway, so my opinion is less than expert here.

Good point on the techniques. I had a terrible time getting joint locks to work - even the most simple ones, yet many of my classmates picked them up easily. It took me longer to go up a single Kyu rank in JJJ than it did to make brown in a striking art.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> There is useful things you can do, but IMO you loose more useful things then you gain.


 
The only grappling use I could see it having in a fight is to stab at soft spots to try and create openings for subs or sweeps (which can be done just as easily with fingers or fists). That's not how it is being advertised; the claim is that it will give greater leverage and control. I can't see that being the case, so I'll play with it and see if I'm right.


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## MJS (Apr 25, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> IMO, the kubotan applied expertly would very likely be a fight stopper. Depends who you come up against, though.


 
Good point.  The eye may be a stopper, but somewhere else on the body, ie: arm, chest, may cause that momentary distraction.

Mike


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## bignick (Apr 26, 2006)

All I know is that in my experience training with the yawara, they are very effective and very painful.  MardiGras, I bet your not gonna have any luck with your little experience and report this to us as proof.  It is just like any other skill or tool, it requires training and practice to gain proficiency. That'd be like saying..."even though I don't know anything about groundwork, I don't think it works, and to prove it I'm gonna go roll with an experienced BJJer" it just doesn't make sense.  And it won't work in either situation...

The extra leverage is real and painful.  I've been training with one for about 3 1/2 years regularly and we do actually test against resisting opponents.  I've almost blacked out from pain once or twice and I wasn't standing around letting people do that to me.

When it comes to taking people's advice, I tend to listen to those with experience, and my instructor has been teaching the kubotan, yawara, etc as part of his defensive tactics course to police officers for decades and after 20 years as a civilian police officer in addition to time spent in the Marines as an MP, he swears by them and claims he has more arrests on his mini-mag flashlite than any other piece of equipment in his arsenal.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 26, 2006)

I haven't used it for holding, just striking. But, I remember dealing with a few who did. Very effective holds against fingers and my thumb.


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## Don Roley (Apr 26, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> I can see the usefulness of pocket sticks for hammerfisting someone, but I can't see them helping grappling at all.



The extra leverage on a small area can break things easily. I have had techniques done on me. They are quite effective. If you can't do decent moves without it, you won't be able to do anything with it. But I challenge anyone to try to resist some of the moves that you can find in Masaaki Hatsumi's Stick Fighting book.

As for the pocket sticks smaller area and metal construction not being enough to matter- isn't this the reason that there are brass knuckles? The knuckles concentrate the power in a smaller area and is harder than flesh just like pocket sticks. Its track record in real encounters is well known- so much so that they are illeagle in a lot of areas. So the principle and dynamics of pocket sticks are pretty much established.

If you know how, you can grasp other things (or people) while still holding onto the stick. But that is a skill you have to learn from a real teacher I think.


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## Drac (Apr 26, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> he swears by them and claims he has more arrests on his mini-mag flashlite than any other piece of equipment in his arsenal.


 
Same here..I've carried one for years as a bouncer and currently as an LEO..It's a nasty little painful surprise...


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 26, 2006)

Exactly.  I am convinced that to dismiss this weapon you must either be intentionally avoiding reality or simply and plainly ignorant of its use.


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 26, 2006)

i see a lot of value in training with pocket sticks -- as i mentioned earlier, skill with one of those things means you can improvise weaponry just about anywhere.

for a carry weapon, my main objection to pocket sticks/kubatons/pens is opportunity cost.  they have advantages, but just about all of them i've seen are outstripped by something else.

they can make joint locks nastier, but a joint lock performed by somebody skilled is nasty enough without them.  so why tie up your hand and limit flexibility?

they can add authority to a punch if used like brass knuckles, but most pocket stick type weapons tend to be pretty light.  actual brass knuckles, or a roll of quarters, or a rock would do the job better.  better yet, a collapsing baton will hit harder still and give you range.

the kubatons or longer ones can be used edge-on to create a small surface area striking point, but if you're going to go for penetration like that why not use a knife?

the flashlight angle is a neat wrinkle (and despite his michael-moore style delivery in this forum, i intend to buy mr. elmore's book to learn more about that), but why use a mini-flash when a nice 4-battery maglight hits harder and at greater range?

i can see the usefulness for an LEO or other professional who needs a wide continuum of force available on demand.  i can also see a sort of 'swiss army knife' elegance to the weapon -- it has a lot of uses in one device.  there's something to be said for ease of portability and concealment.  and many are easy to pass off as 'not a weapon' in a security screen.  

ultimately, though, i see the value for your average practitioner more as a training tool than something to carry about.


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 26, 2006)

> but why use a mini-flash when a nice 4-battery maglight hits harder and at greater range?


 
Because you can carry a SureFire or a Streamlight with you every day, anywhere, without raising attention.  You cannot walk through life with a 4-D Maglite swinging from your belt -- or at least, most of us can't -- without at least looking out of place.  Such a large light is also heavier; the heavier and bulkier something is, the less likely you are to carry it everywhere.

The best way to keep such a light on hand is attached to brackets someplace where you spend a lot of time.  I keep one bolted under my desk:

http://themartialist.com/images/4dmaglite10.jpg

We could just as easily say, "Why get a license to carry a concealed handgun when an assault rifle is so much more effective?"  The answer is the same -- you can carry a concealed handgun all day, every day, without raising alarm.  You cannot walk around with a rifle on your shoulder (most places, anyway) without alerting the neighbors.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 26, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Ronin, question for you. Have you done any training with the pocket stick, or are you basing your opinion of it, off of what you've seen others do? The reason I ask, is because it is possible for 2 people to be shown a technique, with one person having difficulty applying it, and the other having no toruble at all.
> 
> I'm also a bit confused by your last paragraph. You say that there is a tactical advantage to carrying one, but then you go on to say that its not enough to warrant carrying one?
> 
> ...


-I have played with them is how I describe my experiance with them. What that means is I've poked and prodded, and been poked and prodded with little to no resistance. I have struck heavy bags and dummy men with them. I have not sparred live with them. I believe my experiance is pretty much the same as those that are pro-pocket stick. From what I can tell the majority of the people in favor of pocket sticks don't spar with them. I would love to hear people's details of live sparring with them if they honestly have that experiance. I don't currently have that training option.

In fact, the best argument for pocket sticks I've heard to date is Crafty Dog of the Dog Brothers stating in a similar thread to this that he believes in their effectiveness. It's a pretty safe bet that he knows what he's talking about when it comes to sticks. I stand by my position though for the reasons stated. I would also like to know if he would personally carry one.

What I mean by "tactical advantage" is yes it concentrates striking force, just not by enough of a factor to warrent carry.

Now based on your last paragraph we're pretty close in opinion. One of my major arguments has been that a pocket stick isn't a fight stopper. That all by itself negates its use by a civilian imo. This is based on my civilian SD strategy. If I am warrented to escalate force to defend myself beyond basic empty hands when escape is not an option (cornered and/or defending loved ones), then my opinion is that I should skip all less than lethal weapons and go straight to lethal force. The pocket stick does not provide lethal force and would be a waste of valuable time imo. 

That is not to say that I would ever be against the use of a heavy pen, or magick marker if you were taking the hypothetical *** beating. Fall and find your hand on a pocket stick shaped implement. By all means strike with it. That is not the same as carrying a 6" piece of plastic with your keys on it at all times that you have in your "mental personal force escalation plan" as a legitimate step along the way to deadly force. I am arguing against the latter.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 26, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> All I know is that in my experience training with the yawara, they are very effective and very painful. MardiGras, I bet your not gonna have any luck with your little experience and report this to us as proof. It is just like any other skill or tool, it requires training and practice to gain proficiency. That'd be like saying..."even though I don't know anything about groundwork, I don't think it works, and to prove it I'm gonna go roll with an experienced BJJer" it just doesn't make sense. And it won't work in either situation...
> 
> The extra leverage is real and painful. I've been training with one for about 3 1/2 years regularly and we do actually test against resisting opponents. I've almost blacked out from pain once or twice and I wasn't standing around letting people do that to me.
> 
> When it comes to taking people's advice, I tend to listen to those with experience, and my instructor has been teaching the kubotan, yawara, etc as part of his defensive tactics course to police officers for decades and after 20 years as a civilian police officer in addition to time spent in the Marines as an MP, he swears by them and claims he has more arrests on his mini-mag flashlite than any other piece of equipment in his arsenal.


-By "test against resisting oppenents" do you mean all striking and grappling escapes allowed, assuming proper protective gear? 

I'm not surprised a LEO trainer believes in their effectiveness. I believe they have some use on a semi-resisting suspect that just needs a strong signal that he better do what the hell the cop is telling him to do. I believe that pain is a good signal for such a situation. That context is drastically different than a civilian though. That cop would also probably be using pepper spray in that situation now.


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## bignick (Apr 26, 2006)

My instructor teaches a personal defense class at college, he always teaches the kubotan.  One semester a lovely young lady was on spring break and was attacked as her and some of her friends walked past an alley, a guy tried to pull her into the alleyway.  She struck the attacker in the side of the head with the end of her kubotan and dropped him cold to the ground.  When she came back she said she just ran like hell afterwards and didn't know if she just knocked him out or killed him.  As my instructor says, who cares?  It's an occupational hazard of being a bad guy, but my point is that she was of slight build and musclature, and still managed to drop the guy cold to the cement with one blow...

If that isn't a "fight stopper" I don't know what is....


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## bignick (Apr 26, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -By "test against resisting oppenents" do you mean all striking and grappling escapes allowed, assuming proper protective gear?



Protective gear?  Otherwise, right on...


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## RoninPimp (Apr 26, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> The extra leverage on a small area can break things easily. I have had techniques done on me. They are quite effective. If you can't do decent moves without it, you won't be able to do anything with it. But I challenge anyone to try to resist some of the moves that you can find in Masaaki Hatsumi's Stick Fighting book.
> 
> As for the pocket sticks smaller area and metal construction not being enough to matter- isn't this the reason that there are brass knuckles? The knuckles concentrate the power in a smaller area and is harder than flesh just like pocket sticks. Its track record in real encounters is well known- so much so that they are illeagle in a lot of areas. So the principle and dynamics of pocket sticks are pretty much established.
> 
> If you know how, you can grasp other things (or people) while still holding onto the stick. But that is a skill you have to learn from a real teacher I think.


-To get to the positions to apply those painful locks and holds requires you to be in control in the first place. In the real world as a civilian, once you do that, the situation is either over or its time to escalate to lethal force imo. There would be no need to introduce a pocket stick OR it would be time to pull the serious hardware.

Why an old school brass knuckle duster is effective and a 6" plastic stick is not is pretty simple imo. The brass is obviously heavier. But more importantly it can be used as a striking surface with a more powerful strike.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 26, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> My instructor teaches a personal defense class at college, he always teaches the kubotan. One semester a lovely young lady was on spring break and was attacked as her and some of her friends walked past an alley, a guy tried to pull her into the alleyway. She struck the attacker in the side of the head with the end of her kubotan and dropped him cold to the ground. When she came back she said she just ran like hell afterwards and didn't know if she just knocked him out or killed him. As my instructor says, who cares? It's an occupational hazard of being a bad guy, but my point is that she was of slight build and musclature, and still managed to drop the guy cold to the cement with one blow...
> 
> If that isn't a "fight stopper" I don't know what is....


-Great for her. Do you think this is the typical result one should expect?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 26, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> Protective gear? Otherwise, right on...


-I would love to hear all the details you're willing to type out.


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## shesulsa (Apr 26, 2006)

Sure, short sticks are not effective. That's why in many states they're illegal to carry ... cuz they don't do enough damage to warrant carrying them.

Yeah ... there's some logic.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 26, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Sure, short sticks are not effective. That's why in many states they're illegal to carry ... cuz they don't do enough damage to warrant carrying them.
> 
> Yeah ... there's some logic.


 
Sudafed is illegal, that doesn't make it dangerous. The government sucks, and will ban anything it can whenever it can. If it can't ban it, it will regulate untill nobody bothers to get one. 

Are pocketsticks actually illegal anywhere? I thought the point was you _could_ carry them (not that you couldn't improvise one easily enough).


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## shesulsa (Apr 26, 2006)

You can't carry a kubaton in many states.  Depending upon the letter of the law and the officer who finds it on you, a simile might be confiscated and you might be cited.  Unless you have a reason for carrying a small stick on your person at all times.


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## shesulsa (Apr 26, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Sudafed is illegal, that doesn't make it dangerous. The government sucks, and will ban anything it can whenever it can. If it can't ban it, it will regulate untill nobody bothers to get one.
> 
> Are pocketsticks actually illegal anywhere? I thought the point was you _could_ carry them (not that you couldn't improvise one easily enough).



And actually, sudafed is not illegal, it's controlled by prescription.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 26, 2006)

This comes from someone who has zero experience with pocket sticks, but...if you feel like carrying something about that size, why not make sure it has a blade on it? What is the POINT of carrying such a thing, other than laws against knifes?

I can understand how it can be good to train with that thing - learn how to deal with improvised wepaons and such. But actually carrying it around for self defense purposes seems rather silly to me, unless, as RoninPimp said, you are a cop and must have every trick available.


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## Don Roley (Apr 26, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I have played with them is how I describe my experiance with them. What that means is I've poked and prodded, and been poked and prodded with little to no resistance. I have struck heavy bags and dummy men with them. I have not sparred live with them. I believe my experiance is pretty much the same as those that are pro-pocket stick.



No, not my experience.

Unless you want to say you were actually trained in its use by a skilled instructor and had techniques done on you while you made efforts to resist your experience is far short of mine. Two guys in a back yard playing with a stick is not even close IMO.

If you have not been shown what I have been shown then I can understand why you don't know how to use these things effectively. The trap is in thinking that just because you have never been shown effective stuff and don't know how to make things work, that _everyone else_ is in the same boat as an untrained person like yourself. Rejecting something you have never been properly instructed in out of hand is a big, silly jump if you ask me.



			
				RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -To get to the positions to apply those painful locks and holds requires you to be in control in the first place.



No. That is merely your experience with the matter. I have had things reversed on me by people who were previously not in control by use of a short stick. Again, if you have not had the experience I have, I can understand why you think the way you do. But you should try to keep an open mind and not reject things just because you have never had a chance to properly learn what others have.



> This comes from someone who has zero experience with pocket sticks, but...if you feel like carrying something about that size, why not make sure it has a blade on it? What is the POINT of carrying such a thing, other than laws against knifes?



Because something with a blade is a deadly weapon. You can only pull and use it when you can show that you are in fear for your life. If you pull it otherwise, the least you are looking at is probably being charged with brandishing a weapon.

But impact weapons are not classified as leathal weapons just about everywhere. You are allowed to use it against unarmed attacks in most areas. Police use impact weapons against unarmed people just for not following orders but they can't use firearms or other leathal weapons like knives unless they can show that the only option they had was to kill the other guy or be killed in turn.

And in modern times, with small flashlights and such, you can carry them around and find lots of uses for them other than as a weapon. I carry a flashlight with me every day. Sometimes I leave the pepper spray at home because it is dead weight. But the surefire is with me pretty much every time I leave the house. And that means that it will be with me, and probably already in my hands, when someone starts looking like he is going to try something violent.


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## bignick (Apr 26, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> And actually, sudafed is not illegal, it's controlled by prescription.



Actually, it's not controlled by prescription either, they just need a record on people that buy it and limit amount of sales


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## shesulsa (Apr 26, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> Actually, it's not controlled by prescription either, they just need a record on people that buy it and limit amount of sales


Hmmm ... that must be different by state, because I'm pretty sure here you have to have a prescription for it now.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 26, 2006)

I'm back from training, and here is my experience. I wanted to test the claim that pocketsticks help with jointlocks, because I train BJJ and was very skeptical that they could have any positive effect. I used a minimag flashlight because the general consensus is that it makes a good substitute. I have never trained in the use of pocketsticks, but I have a good deal of grappling experience and knowledge of joint locks (both in practice and the theory behind the technique).

Holding the pocketstick as it was shown in every picture I found, I attempted to roll with it. I tried to go for moves that seemed like they would most benefit from its use; trapping arms, wrists, ect. In every case the stick was a hinderance. It either hurt my ability to grab, required much extra effort to use, or left me wide open for blows, sweeps or submissions as I attempted to manipulate it. The one thing I found it helpful for was breaking down a person posturing up in my guard, because it increased pressure on the back of the head slightly. 

There was actually someone there who had trained a little in the use of pocketsticks, and he showed me a few finger locks. The gave absolutley no control and I was able to escape each one by rolling my wrist. They all required two handed control to set up, and left the guy doing them open to blows. He agreed with me that the locks were not effective.

All this has firmly convinced me that pocketsticks have absolutely no value in grappling. Any benefit they give is _far_ outweighed by the amount of control they take away. Hit people with them, but don't make the mistake of beliveing they help jointlocks.

EDIT: My mistake, Sudafed is still legal, but requires a prescription (at least in NY). I'm gonna claim my point still stands, because the gov is trying to regulate it out of existence. I guess you can make meth or ephedra out of it. Nothing like punishing the many for the sins of the few...


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## bignick (Apr 26, 2006)

Did I call that one or what?


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## bignick (Apr 26, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Great for her. Do you think this is the typical result one should expect?



Who knows? :idunno:

But it's one more piece of real world empirical evidence than you've presented.


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## bignick (Apr 26, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I would love to hear all the details you're willing to type out.



What's to type out.  Occasionally some of us will bring a yawara, kubotan, etc and we'll go at it.  Sometimes in a randori type format and other times we'll do multiple attacker type rush attacks, other times it'll be a bit more static and we'll work set techniques.  Pretty much standard training, regardless, I do concur, that it doens't really look anything like some of the videos posted here.


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## MJS (Apr 26, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I have played with them is how I describe my experiance with them. What that means is I've poked and prodded, and been poked and prodded with little to no resistance. I have struck heavy bags and dummy men with them. I have not sparred live with them. I believe my experiance is pretty much the same as those that are pro-pocket stick. From what I can tell the majority of the people in favor of pocket sticks don't spar with them. I would love to hear people's details of live sparring with them if they honestly have that experiance. I don't currently have that training option.


 
Thanks for the reply.  So, if I'm reading this correctly, your experience is based fully on trial and error and no official training from someone with experience using this tool?  If thats the case, how can you accurately have an understanding of it?  



> In fact, the best argument for pocket sticks I've heard to date is Crafty Dog of the Dog Brothers stating in a similar thread to this that he believes in their effectiveness. It's a pretty safe bet that he knows what he's talking about when it comes to sticks. I stand by my position though for the reasons stated. I would also like to know if he would personally carry one.


 
We're in agreement here.  




> Now based on your last paragraph we're pretty close in opinion. One of my major arguments has been that a pocket stick isn't a fight stopper. That all by itself negates its use by a civilian imo. This is based on my civilian SD strategy. If I am warrented to escalate force to defend myself beyond basic empty hands when escape is not an option (cornered and/or defending loved ones), then my opinion is that I should skip all less than lethal weapons and go straight to lethal force. The pocket stick does not provide lethal force and would be a waste of valuable time imo.


 
Well, IMO, this can be said of every strike or kick.



> That is not to say that I would ever be against the use of a heavy pen, or magick marker if you were taking the hypothetical *** beating. Fall and find your hand on a pocket stick shaped implement. By all means strike with it. That is not the same as carrying a 6" piece of plastic with your keys on it at all times that you have in your "mental personal force escalation plan" as a legitimate step along the way to deadly force. I am arguing against the latter.


 
If the chips were down that bad, I'd grab whatever I could to use.

Mike


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## MJS (Apr 26, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> I'm back from training, and here is my experience. I wanted to test the claim that pocketsticks help with jointlocks, because I train BJJ and was very skeptical that they could have any positive effect. I used a minimag flashlight because the general consensus is that it makes a good substitute. I have never trained in the use of pocketsticks, but I have a good deal of grappling experience and knowledge of joint locks (both in practice and the theory behind the technique).
> 
> Holding the pocketstick as it was shown in every picture I found, I attempted to roll with it. I tried to go for moves that seemed like they would most benefit from its use; trapping arms, wrists, ect. In every case the stick was a hinderance. It either hurt my ability to grab, required much extra effort to use, or left me wide open for blows, sweeps or submissions as I attempted to manipulate it. The one thing I found it helpful for was breaking down a person posturing up in my guard, because it increased pressure on the back of the head slightly.
> 
> ...


 
So, if I'm reading this correctly, you have not worked with anyone who has much experience?  If thats the case, I can see how you can have a biased opinion.  In addition, you're basing the effectiveness of this on the experience that you have had with it, which appears to not be that good.  Please keep in mind, as I said earlier, just because you may not have luck with it, does not mean that someone else will not find value in it.  You and I could learn the same technique, I could have problems and you could pick it up with ease, and vice versa.  

Mike


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## MJS (Apr 26, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Great for her. Do you think this is the typical result one should expect?


 
Nope, but it seems like it worked for her, so I'd have to say that its not as useless of a tool as some people think it is!

Mike


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 26, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Hmmm ... that must be different by state, because I'm pretty sure here you have to have a prescription for it now.


 
IIRC, states with big Meth problems are starting to require them.

On topic:

I think BigNick's, MJS's and Don Roley's points are, well, on point. Those with formal, specific training in the use of SD sticks and lights for joint locks, etc. have found them very effective. Those without the training (or in my case, training that didn't stick, no pun intended), are less able to use them as grappling aids and more likely to pooh pooh their use.

The difference is; I wrote that I'm not a fan of them for grappling use because I am terrible at joint locks and, thus, cannot use them effectively at my current level of skill. Some others have said they don't like them - but are unwilling to admit the possibility that this is because they don't know how to use them!


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## Flatlander (Apr 27, 2006)

If it came to grappling, and you found it of no value, abandon the pocketstick.  Otherwise, why not use it to supplement your striking?


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## shesulsa (Apr 27, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> If it came to grappling, and you found it of no value, abandon the pocketstick.  Otherwise, why not use it to supplement your striking?



Good advice!


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 27, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> If it came to grappling, and you found it of no value, abandon the pocketstick. Otherwise, why not use it to supplement your striking?


 
If you're speaking of those who tried it (without specific training) and did not like it, I agree. If you are speaking of me (mine was the post above yours), I think that they could be of value to me IF I knew how to grapple with them - or even grapple without them, LOL. I'm all thumbs when it comes to joint locks...


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 27, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> So, if I'm reading this correctly, you have not worked with anyone who has much experience? If thats the case, I can see how you can have a biased opinion. In addition, you're basing the effectiveness of this on the experience that you have had with it, which appears to not be that good. Please keep in mind, as I said earlier, just because you may not have luck with it, does not mean that someone else will not find value in it. You and I could learn the same technique, I could have problems and you could pick it up with ease, and vice versa.


 
I've worked with many people who have extensive grappling exprience. No one could find any grappling value to a pocketstick; it gives no extra leverage or control and hurts your ability to grip. It could be useful to try and hit someone with, but I was trying to test the claim that it improved the ability to do submissions by increasing the very things it hinders. There is no grip done using a pocketstick that can't be done better without it, and it is too short to give leverage like a club or stick can.



			
				Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I think BigNick's, MJS's and Don Roley's points are, well, on point. Those with formal, specific training in the use of SD sticks and lights for joint locks, etc. have found them very effective. Those without the training (or in my case, training that didn't stick, no pun intended), are less able to use them as grappling aids and more likely to pooh pooh their use.
> 
> The difference is; I wrote that I'm not a fan of them for grappling use because I am terrible at joint locks and, thus, cannot use them effectively at my current level of skill. Some others have said they don't like them - but are unwilling to admit the possibility that this is because they don't know how to use them!


 
I'll admit I am biased against using them for grappling despite not having any formal training in their use. I _do_ have a lot of formal grappling training, enough so that I can realize the uselessness of pocketsticks for this purpose. All the techniques I have been shown (the videos posted and the finger locks shown to me) have been terrible, and my own experience showed a complete lack of function.

Keep in mind I'm not arguing against hitting someone with a pocketstick. If you hammerfisted someone hard with one you would probably **** them up pretty nicely. But the claim that they help with jointlocks is completly without merit. If someone has something to show me how I'm wrong, I gladly listen and eat crow.


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## Don Roley (Apr 27, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> I've worked with many people who have extensive grappling exprience. No one could find any grappling value to a pocketstick;



Thats your mistake. It is like going to a boxer and asking them about adding kicking to what you do. They will tell you it is worthless due to what they do and their lack of experience with the subject matter. You need to go to someone who knows a decent style of kopojutsu or the like and ask them if it can help. Note that only about one in ten people that I know who say they know the art meet my standards as a decent practicioner.

There are specific techniques to use the stick. It is not like you lay out with taking a standard move and just holding the stick in your hand when you do it. The movements are based on the same moves in my art, but probably not what you do and there are things you need to do to make it Koppo specific.


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Thats your mistake. It is like going to a boxer and asking them about adding kicking to what you do. They will tell you it is worthless due to what they do and their lack of experience with the subject matter. You need to go to someone who knows a decent style of kopojutsu or the like and ask them if it can help. Note that only about one in ten people that I know who say they know the art meet my standards as a decent practicioner.
> 
> There are specific techniques to use the stick. It is not like you lay out with taking a standard move and just holding the stick in your hand when you do it. The movements are based on the same moves in my art, but probably not what you do and there are things you need to do to make it Koppo specific.


 
Don, that says it all!  

If you haven't been trained in the use of a tool, how can you say it is worthless?


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 27, 2006)

Simple. Both my experience trying to use it and the actual techniques shown to me by those who have trained with it have led me to conclude it has no use in grappling or joint locks. The claim is being made that it increases leverage and control. It absolutely cannot do these things. 

If anyone can show me proof otherwise, I'll be happy to admit I am wrong. Unless that happens I am going to go with what experience has shown me and call bull **** on this one.


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## Don Roley (Apr 27, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Simple. Both my experience trying to use it and the actual techniques shown to me by those who have trained with it have led me to conclude it has no use in grappling or joint locks. The claim is being made that it increases leverage and control. It absolutely cannot do these things.
> 
> If anyone can show me proof otherwise, I'll be happy to admit I am wrong. Unless that happens I am going to go with what experience has shown me and call bull s*** on this one.



I don't think you have trained with people who know what they are doing. I would urge you to keep an open mind instead of being so eager to reject something that has been proven as an effective weapon by many schools of martial arts in Japan. Just because you know no way to make something work does not mean that _nobody_ knows how to make something work. Open your mind and seek new experiences rather than make such broad statements of rejection.


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## shesulsa (Apr 27, 2006)

First of all, let me point out to you that disguising/circumventing profanity is against the rules on MartialTalk. You can find the posting rules at the link that says "Rules" on the blue menu bar towards the top of every page.

Second of all, you are welcome to share your polite opinions on MartialTalk as well, but we do not "call ********" - that's for a different discussion site.

Thirdly, this thread was not dedicated to grappling (exclusively) with a pocket stick and just because a handful of people could not show you how to do it properly doesn't mean it is not of value nor useful, nor that you were even shown correctly.

There is a saying about assumptions ....


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## Hand Sword (Apr 27, 2006)

I haven't studied them in depth at all, but, I'm sure that some of the people mentioned here, have, and can make it work for them. I base this on my experience with a security guard who used it to capture my Thumb in a lock, some fingers too. He did it enough times in his work where he aquired some skill with one, so I wouldn't say there is NO use to them at all. Everything has some use or function.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 27, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Simple. Both my experience trying to use it and the actual techniques shown to me by those who have trained with it have led me to conclude it has no use in grappling or joint locks. The claim is being made that it increases leverage and control. It absolutely cannot do these things.
> 
> If anyone can show me proof otherwise, I'll be happy to admit I am wrong. Unless that happens I am going to go with what experience has shown me and call bull **** on this one.


YES YES YES!!!

And throwing 4 palm strikes in 1.5 sec that thing will fly off and have just as good a chance as hitting you in the eye as it has of hitting the other person.

Im sure that it works real well as a Kata Krappy thing.


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## MJS (Apr 27, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> I've worked with many people who have extensive grappling exprience. No one could find any grappling value to a pocketstick; it gives no extra leverage or control and hurts your ability to grip. It could be useful to try and hit someone with, but I was trying to test the claim that it improved the ability to do submissions by increasing the very things it hinders. There is no grip done using a pocketstick that can't be done better without it, and it is too short to give leverage like a club or stick can.


 
I can only echo what Don Roley said in his post.  Working with someone, regardless of their grappling experience is not going to do any good for you, if they themselves do not have training in using the stick.


----------



## MJS (Apr 27, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Simple. Both my experience trying to use it and the actual techniques shown to me by those who have trained with it have led me to conclude it has no use in grappling or joint locks. The claim is being made that it increases leverage and control. It absolutely cannot do these things.
> 
> If anyone can show me proof otherwise, I'll be happy to admit I am wrong. Unless that happens I am going to go with what experience has shown me and call bull **** on this one.


 
Again, I'll repeat what both I and Don have already said, however, you keep failing to see this point.  Just because you have not had much luck with this, does not mean that someone else will have the same results as you.  It appears that you and a number of others, do not take the time to seriously look into something.  You're a) working with someone who has no training in them, b) working with someone who has limited training in them, c) watching a tape/dvd or looking at pics. and using that to determine that they're ineffective or d) all of the above.  

How can you go on your experience and get an accurate description, when it appears your experience is limited at best?


----------



## MJS (Apr 27, 2006)

BlackSheep said:
			
		

> YES YES YES!!!
> 
> And throwing 4 palm strikes in 1.5 sec that thing will fly off and have just as good a chance as hitting you in the eye as it has of hitting the other person.
> 
> Im sure that it works real well as a Kata Krappy thing.


 
And this is contributing to the discussion how??? If you have nothing constructive to say, perhaps you shouldn't say anything at all!

Mike


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## MJS (Apr 27, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Thirdly, this thread was not dedicated to grappling (exclusively)


 
I was starting to wonder the same thing myself. Perhaps I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything in the initial thread about using this during grappling. It seems to me that certian people are using this excuse in an attempt to derail the thread and try to prove the ineffectiveness of a tool, which in fact is very usefull, but some refuse to open their eyes to what others with more experience than they, have to say about the stick.



> There is a saying about assumptions ....


 
Yes, isn't that the truth!


----------



## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Because something with a blade is a deadly weapon. You can only pull and use it when you can show that you are in fear for your life. If you pull it otherwise, the least you are looking at is probably being charged with brandishing a weapon.
> 
> But impact weapons are not classified as leathal weapons just about everywhere. You are allowed to use it against unarmed attacks in most areas. Police use impact weapons against unarmed people just for not following orders but they can't use firearms or other leathal weapons like knives unless they can show that the only option they had was to kill the other guy or be killed in turn.
> 
> And in modern times, with small flashlights and such, you can carry them around and find lots of uses for them other than as a weapon. I carry a flashlight with me every day. Sometimes I leave the pepper spray at home because it is dead weight. But the surefire is with me pretty much every time I leave the house. And that means that it will be with me, and probably already in my hands, when someone starts looking like he is going to try something violent.


 
Don, I said it plainly in my post - in practical terms, if we completely disregard the law, is it worth the trouble to carry that thing instead of a knife or a switchblade?

Not everyone here lives in the USA. I am speaking from the point of view of someone who CAN carry a knife and use it if he believes his physical integrity is in danger.

So, I´ll repeat my question. Is it worth the trouble to carry that thing if the same amount of space/trouble/annoyance in your everyday routine could fit a switchblade or a pepper spray in its place?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 27, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> What's to type out. Occasionally some of us will bring a yawara, kubotan, etc and we'll go at it. Sometimes in a randori type format and other times we'll do multiple attacker type rush attacks, other times it'll be a bit more static and we'll work set techniques. Pretty much standard training, regardless, I do concur, that it doens't really look anything like some of the videos posted here.


 
Nick, could you describe some of the techniques?  Do you have any pictures?  Any video?  It sounds like your instructor really knows how to apply this thing and your experience would be helpful in this discussion?


----------



## Don Roley (Apr 27, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Don, I said it plainly in my post - in practical terms, if we completely disregard the law, is it worth the trouble to carry that thing instead of a knife or a switchblade?
> 
> Not everyone here lives in the USA. I am speaking from the point of view of someone who CAN carry a knife and use it if he believes his physical integrity is in danger.
> 
> So, I´ll repeat my question. Is it worth the trouble to carry that thing if the same amount of space/trouble/annoyance in your everyday routine could fit a switchblade or a pepper spray in its place?



My experience with living in Japan and coming from America seems to indicate that the attitude of the law is the same. You can only pull out a lethal weapon like a knife when you can show that your life is in danger. You can generally hit someone with a blunt object more often that you can show someone a knife and stay out of jail. I have no reason to assume that there is some place that you can use a weapon like a knife without showing this level of threat or one that would drag me to jail for having something like my surefire flashlight in my hand at any time.

And I carry a sure fire flashlight in my jacket pocket. I would avoid using something that was clearly made to be a weapon and served no other purpose. But I used my surefire in class tonight for some applications of _tessenjutsu_ and it worked really well. I carry my surefire a lot more often than my pepper spray because outside of a fight the pepper spray is just dead weight. But the surefire is a helpfull thing to have.


----------



## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 27, 2006)

Don, I am afraid you did not answer my question.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 27, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Don, I am afraid you did not answer my question.


Yes he did.  Let's review together, shall we?



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> You can generally hit someone with a blunt object more often that you can show someone a knife and stay out of jail. I have no reason to assume that there is some place that you can use a weapon like a knife without showing this level of threat or one that would drag me to jail for having something like my surefire flashlight in my hand at any time.


When I read that I thought to myself, 'gee, it sounds like Don doesn't want to go to jail and that his argument is that if you use a knife you're more likely to go to jail,' which sentiment I happen to wholeheartedly agree with.

He further says,



> And I carry a sure fire flashlight in my jacket pocket. I would avoid using something that was clearly made to be a weapon and served no other purpose.


 and


> I carry my surefire a lot more often than my pepper spray because outside of a fight the pepper spray is just dead weight.


When I read these I thought to myself, 'that means Don prefers to carry the surefire instead of a knife or pepper spray for the reasons he stated.'

So your question was: 


> Is it worth the trouble to carry that thing if the same amount of space/trouble/annoyance in your everyday routine could fit a switchblade or a pepper spray in its place?


Looks to me like the answer is yes.


----------



## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 27, 2006)

I asked him to answer my question, considering no predetermined legal restriction is placed on carrying or using a knife.

I live in Brazil, and the law here allows me to carry any blade under 10 centimeters, and to use it as I see fit in legitimate defense of myself or of others. 

I have no clue on the law in the USA, but in Brazil the law does not distinguish between "lethal weapons" and "non lethal weapons". You can go to jail if you over react in a self defense situation no matter what weapon you are using, but if you don´t over react (i.e. you use force proportional to the threat, in view of the means available to you at the time), you are OK, wether you used a pocket stick or a rocket launcher.

Don just mentioned the legal consequences in his country in order to support his arguments in favour of the pocket stick. He did not actually compare its efficiency to the efficiency presented by a pocket knife, specially since we consider both of those instruments present the same difficulty in carrying - AND the knife can be used for other things, not only self defense.


----------



## bignick (Apr 27, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Nick, could you describe some of the techniques? Do you have any pictures? Any video? It sounds like your instructor really knows how to apply this thing and your experience would be helpful in this discussion?



Of course, the problem is, I'm not my instructor :wink:

I don't have any videos or pictures, I could try to give a couple examples later, but I have my shodan test tonight in jujutsu, so it may be a while.


----------



## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 27, 2006)

I didn't mean to break any rules with my posts, I censored myself not realizing there was a filter. I didn't mean to sound impolite (since the sudafed regulations passed I have had trouble getting enough meth to keep me level headed :uhyeah.

I reason I brought up grappling was becasue several posts, as well as every site and video linked to this thread, made the claim that a pocketstick could improve the abiltiy to do joint locks. I don't doubt the claims about using one for striking, but I can not belive they are useful for grappling. As flawed as my testing methods may have been, no one has shown me any evidence to refute my position. I'll let the issue drop, but I would still like to see some examples of how a pocketstick can be effectively used in this way.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> No, not my experience.
> 
> Unless you want to say you were actually trained in its use by a skilled instructor and had techniques done on you while you made efforts to resist your experience is far short of mine. Two guys in a back yard playing with a stick is not even close IMO.
> 
> ...


-Then please go into more detail with your experiances. I stand by what I said. It is a fundamental rule of grappling. Position over submission. If you are in control and then are reversed by someone using the little additional leverage provided by a pocket stick. Except for the occasional fluke, then you did something wrong. That doesn't mean the tool they used was superior.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 27, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> What's to type out. Occasionally some of us will bring a yawara, kubotan, etc and we'll go at it. Sometimes in a randori type format and other times we'll do multiple attacker type rush attacks, other times it'll be a bit more static and we'll work set techniques. Pretty much standard training, regardless, I do concur, that it doens't really look anything like some of the videos posted here.


-What I want to know are locks being applied succesfully with them? Are strikes with them so overwhelming that people have to stop?


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 27, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply. So, if I'm reading this correctly, your experience is based fully on trial and error and no official training from someone with experience using this tool? If thats the case, how can you accurately have an understanding of it?
> 
> 
> We're in agreement here.
> ...


-No, I don't have official training with a pocket stick under my belt. I have experamented as best I can. Very few people that claim they are effective have many details to share on why they think they're effective.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 27, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> IIRC, states with big Meth problems are starting to require them.
> 
> On topic:
> 
> ...


-I am pretty adamant in my opinion that pocket sticks are useless for grappling. I will try to roll with one at some point. They just don't provide leverage enough like a longer stick would. Grappling is about leverage. I know grappling.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Thats your mistake. It is like going to a boxer and asking them about adding kicking to what you do. They will tell you it is worthless due to what they do and their lack of experience with the subject matter. You need to go to someone who knows a decent style of kopojutsu or the like and ask them if it can help. Note that only about one in ten people that I know who say they know the art meet my standards as a decent practicioner.
> 
> There are specific techniques to use the stick. It is not like you lay out with taking a standard move and just holding the stick in your hand when you do it. The movements are based on the same moves in my art, but probably not what you do and there are things you need to do to make it Koppo specific.


-Grappling is grappling.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I don't think you have trained with people who know what they are doing. I would urge you to keep an open mind instead of being so eager to reject something that has been proven as an effective weapon by many schools of martial arts in Japan. Just because you know no way to make something work does not mean that _nobody_ knows how to make something work. Open your mind and seek new experiences rather than make such broad statements of rejection.


-In Koryu Jujitsu styles in Japan, the pocket stick is a minor weapon for LEO's. Not a civilian SD weapon.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 27, 2006)

One more post before I shut up and wait for responses...

Grappling wit a pocket stick is relative to this thread because its effectiveness in grappling was stated as a benefit to carrying one. MGB and I were addressing those claims. Grappling with one is absolutely worthless imo. I will try to roll with one at some point like I've said. Striking with one? Maybe. Helping more than being a hindrence grappling? No way. Grappling is about position and leverage. A 6" stick doesn't help position and adds no leverage.


----------



## MJS (Apr 27, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -No, I don't have official training with a pocket stick under my belt. I have experamented as best I can.


 
Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions.  You have worked with this, and have found your results, and have formed an opinion of the pocket stick.  Many others have also worked with the pocket stick and have had different results.  If some find value in it, thats fine.  If others don't, thats fine too.  I do feel that it is wrong to totally bash the weapon just because some have not had the same experience with it as others have.  

Mike


----------



## MJS (Apr 27, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> One more post before I shut up and wait for responses...
> 
> Grappling wit a pocket stick is relative to this thread because its effectiveness in grappling was stated as a benefit to carrying one. MGB and I were addressing those claims. Grappling with one is absolutely worthless imo. I will try to roll with one at some point like I've said. Striking with one? Maybe. Helping more than being a hindrence grappling? No way. Grappling is about position and leverage. A 6" stick doesn't help position and adds no leverage.


 
As I said before, if it buys me a few seconds in between moves, I'm all for using it.  Even if I was not able to pull a move off while rolling, I feel that it would prove to be a good tool to strike with.  While its smaller than a Kali stick, the Dog Bros. have found some use to grappling with a stick.  

Basically, if I was in that awkward of a position, I'm going to use whatever I can to aid in getting to a more superior position.  

Just my .02.

Mike


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 27, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -In Koryu Jujitsu styles in Japan, the pocket stick is a minor weapon for LEO's. Not a civilian SD weapon.


 
I would be interested to know _why they carried them if they did not add something to their abilities?_


----------



## Don Roley (Apr 28, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> I live in Brazil, and the law here allows me to carry any blade under 10 centimeters, and to use it as I see fit in legitimate defense of myself or of others.
> 
> I have no clue on the law in the USA, but in Brazil the law does not distinguish between "lethal weapons" and "non lethal weapons". You can go to jail if you over react in a self defense situation no matter what weapon you are using, but if you don´t over react (i.e. you use force proportional to the threat, in view of the means available to you at the time), you are OK, wether you used a pocket stick or a rocket launcher.



I still think you are far safer legally in most cases with a pocket stick like a mini mag light than with a knife. The whole concept of a knife is that it is a lethal weapon. If you can't show a need to kill the other guy, you can't use the knife at all. You do not use a knife to try to wound. It is designed for killing and that is it's purpose. By comparison, if you keep your keys on a key ring attached to a mini flashlight, you can honestly say you hit the guy with it because your keys were in your hand when the attack went down. Try giving that excuse with a knife.

Oh, and I sometimes leave the house without my knife even though it is a utility one. But to leave my house without my keys is somewhat rare. And  if you ever had to find a key hole in the dark, you will swear by having a flashlight attached to them. I have no trouble letting people know I have a flashlight on me. But I think they may think of me like a dangerous beast if they knew of my knife. Back in high school I tried to be a tough young buck. Now I am just trying to appear as normal and plain vanilla as I can. I don't need to prove my masculinity and am far less insecure than puberty.

And then there are other factors about using a killing weapon. People do not like to kill other people. That seems like an obvious statement. But it is kind of like saying that people don't like high places. It is one thing to understand it, and another to stand at the side of a tall building and look over the edge.

Whenever I hear people say things like, "I would just shoot the jerk" I know they have never looked over the sights of a loaded firearm at another person. So many sites on the internet seem to attract young studs trying to impress each other with just how bad they all are- but I know they have never looked over the edge.

Facts back this up. S.L.A. Marshall found that only a small number of men in combat during WWII would even fire their rifles. Dave Grossman recounts tale after tale of people who would go out of their way to not shoot at the enemy even when they were being fired on. The most killing in war comes from artillary, because of the distance and disassociation. The closer you get to the person you need to kill, the less eager you are to do it.

Police look on folks that use knives automatically as bad guys because to get so close that you can smell the other guys breath and still slice him is pretty much a sign of determination to kill. Some people can't do it even to save their lives.

And that is where the disadvantages of knives can come in and the strengths of weapons  that are not designed to kill show themselves.

Can you kill? People can say all they want, but someone who has never been over ten feet can say that they could do a dance on the edge of the Empire State building. Those that have actually been there know better. And unless you have been there- you really do not know what you will do or not when you pull your knife.

I know I could use a knife if myself or my family were in danger. But unless it is a pretty clear case, I know from experience that I will not drop the hammer on someone even when the law and morallity say it is a viable option and I take one hell of a risk not blowing the other guy to hell.

But beat the bejeezus out of him with a metal flashlight? No problem. 

Oh yeah, I got the possibilty of a 400+ pound ninja- wanna- be flying into Japan next Sunday to look me up. You can bet that if it comes down to violence I would use a flashlight on him without hesitation even if he obviously has no weapons. No hesitation. But even with what the law calls a 'disparity of force' I do not think I would use a knife on someone in that case. And I do not expect people to show me their weapons until we are engaged and when I engage I do not expect to be able to drop one weapon and pick up another. If I start a fight with this psycofraud with a flashlight in my hands, it will be what I use instead of the knife I carry even if he then whips one out himself.

People do not like killing other people. They do not like the idea of using a weapon that most likely could kill the other person. People tell themselves they can kill and use deadly weapons, but in actual situations the only people that really could do so are barely human. Sociopaths. Animals.

There is much less hesitation to use a weapon like a pocket stick when there is a chance of grave bodily harm. People have had deadly weapons in their hands and still died because they did not have the will to use them. You have more options on the table when you have a non-lethal weapon than having to make the choice to take someone's life.

And it strikes me that we may be looking at some problems with terms and definitions and stuff like that.

Let me digress and try to lay down some explinations of what I mean. I have tires on my car. There are tires on Formula 1 race cars and interstate trucks. You can't use one type of tire on another vehicle. You can't put my tires on a truck and you can't improve my car's speed by putting the tires from the F-1 on. All three types are not wrong or right and each do their job very, very well. But they are designed from the ground up to do very different things and that difference is reflected even in things like tires.

I come from an art that was built around the reality of weapons. The other guy may have them, I may have them, maybe we both have them- or not. Mardi GrasBandit and Ronin Pimp probably do not have the same background as I do. We all use the same terms like "grappling" but the things we base things on are all very different.

I have a tape I was watching where the teacher demonstrates why certain moves with a short stick will not work. When I saw him show them, my thought was, "why isn't he moving anything other than his arms?" The way he does things, everything is on a very stable base, but not one that co-ordinates the entire body or manuevers as much as mine. The problem this guy had was that he was trying to take the tires from one type of vehicle and put it on another.

So I suspect that those that can't get what they see in books and videos are doing things based on their past experiences with their arts and like the guy whose tape I have are just not able to understand a totally different gestalt. Coming from a non-weapon oriented art, or an art that has evolved under situations where weapons are not a factor, they just lack the background to see the things I take for granted.

And that is why everyone is getting so frustrated.


----------



## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 28, 2006)

Ok, now THAT answer was indeed very good Don.

It seems you are addressing the knife vs poicket stick issue from a psychological point of view, one I had not addressed in my question. Nonetheless it is an interesting and relevant point of view to the discussion at hand.

And, of course, and AFAIK, I believe you are right. I am not sure if I could slice someone up even if my life depended on it, but clubbing someone is easier.

I still believe that, if I was actually that worried about self defense, it would be a better trade off for me to learn some Kali, lose my fear of knifes, and start carrying one, as opposed to carrying a pocket stick and learning how to use it.

But I do believe I understand where you are coming from, yes. Thanks for your time.

PS: I could always carry a switchblade as a keyholder!


----------



## Flatlander (Apr 28, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> I still believe that, if I was actually that worried about self defense, it would be a better trade off for me to learn some Kali, lose my fear of knifes, and start carrying one, as opposed to carrying a pocket stick and learning how to use it.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that if you learned Kali, you wouldn't have to separately learn how to use a pocket stick.  It's part and parcel with learning the FMA.  Mind you, it probably looks nothing like the koppojutsu to which Don refers.


----------



## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 28, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm pretty sure that if you learned Kali, you wouldn't have to separately learn how to use a pocket stick. It's part and parcel with learning the FMA. Mind you, it probably looks nothing like the koppojutsu to which Don refers.


 
Really? Interesting. Still, sadly, there are no Kali places close to my place, I checked...


----------



## Phil Elmore (Apr 28, 2006)

> Oh yeah, I got the possibilty of a 400+ pound ninja- wanna- be flying into Japan next Sunday to look me up.


 
Ralph?


----------



## Don Roley (Apr 29, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> Ralph?



Naw. This is an even stranger tale.

Make some space in your private message box and I will send you the hysterical details.


----------



## Carol (Apr 29, 2006)

Given the wide range of opinions on pocket sticks here...I have a question for you all.

What has one got to lose by carrying......or not carrying......a pocket stick?  What are the risks here?


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 29, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Given the wide range of opinions on pocket sticks here...I have a question for you all.
> 
> What has one got to lose by carrying......or not carrying......a pocket stick? What are the risks here?


 
Overconfidence in a tool - if you have not been trained with it. Legal complications that can arise from one that "looks" like a "dangerous weapon" to a frightened public. Solution: aquire some good, specific training in its use and consider what Don Roley and I have constantly suggested - a small sticklike object that does not look like a martial art's weapon, yet could be used as one, and that you could justify carrying for other reasons.


----------



## Drac (Apr 29, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Legal complications that can arise from one that "looks" like a "dangerous weapon" to a frightened public. Solution: aquire some good, specific training in its use and consider what Don Roley and I have constantly suggested - a small sticklike object that does not look like a martial art's weapon, yet could be used as one, and that you could justify carrying for other reasons.


 
An excellent possible solution is the PROTEK key..Log onto www.pps-selfdefense.com and check it out..It looks like an oversized industral size padlock key and it's applications are unlimited...The airlines won't let me carry my kubotan that is attached to my keys onboard but they haven't looked twice at the PROTEK..


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> As I said before, if it buys me a few seconds in between moves, I'm all for using it. Even if I was not able to pull a move off while rolling, I feel that it would prove to be a good tool to strike with. While its smaller than a Kali stick, the Dog Bros. have found some use to grappling with a stick.
> 
> Basically, if I was in that awkward of a position, I'm going to use whatever I can to aid in getting to a more superior position.
> 
> ...


-I think that's a bad strategy imo. So a stick helps your striking, but if you're taking time to draw it when you could be striking empty hands or drawing a lethal weapon you're wasting time imo. No argument from me that that is your right though. And the grappling the Dog Brothers do with sticks won't carry over. No fang choke with a 6" stick.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I would be interested to know _why they carried them if they did not add something to their abilities?_


-A cop using a pocket stick doesn't mean it carries over to civilian SD. The cop's job and legal obligations are way different that a civilian's.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> An excellent possible solution is the PROTEK key..Log onto www.pps-selfdefense.com and check it out..It looks like an oversized industral size padlock key and it's applications are unlimited...The airlines won't let me carry my kubotan that is attached to my keys onboard but they haven't looked twice at the PROTEK..


-The following is quoted on the site Drac linked..."If properly used and trained with this tool, even a child can escape from the attack of a full grown man." That is complete and utter BS. It is also irresponsible imo. The video is also a joke. This is one more piece of evidence showing why I believe pocket sticks are WAY over rated.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 30, 2006)

Personally, I think with your extremely limited experience using short sticks that you don't have a leg to stand on and your arguments are dubious at best.

Also ... every single citizen has a legal responsibility to use force in a careful progression just as every LEO does.

I fail to see how you can feel so comfortable arguing against a weapon you haven't had expert and lengthy training with.


----------



## Kenpodoc (Apr 30, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -The following is quoted on the site Drac linked..."If properly used and trained with this tool, even a child can escape from the attack of a full grown man." That is complete and utter BS. It is also irresponsible imo. The video is also a joke. This is one more piece of evidence showing why I believe pocket sticks are WAY over rated.


You've made your point forcefully and clearly.  Many disagree with you and you disagree with them.  Please respect their right to disagree.  I would be interested to understand why this topic draws such fervor from you.  Personal experience?

Jeff


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 30, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> You've made your point forcefully and clearly.  Many disagree with you and you disagree with them.  Please respect their right to disagree.  I would be interested to understand why this topic draws such fervor from you.  Personal experience?
> 
> Jeff



I'm thinking, most likely an alternate agenda.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> You've made your point forcefully and clearly. Many disagree with you and you disagree with them. Please respect their right to disagree. I would be interested to understand why this topic draws such fervor from you. Personal experience?
> 
> Jeff


-I've never disrespected anybody's right to believe anything. That website claims a kid can defend himself or herself from an adult with a big aluminum key. That is an outright lie. If somebody trys that rather than run. They could die in the worst case.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Personally, I think with your extremely limited experience using short sticks that you don't have a leg to stand on and your arguments are dubious at best.
> 
> Also ... every single citizen has a legal responsibility to use force in a careful progression just as every LEO does.
> 
> I fail to see how you can feel so comfortable arguing against a weapon you haven't had expert and lengthy training with.


-I have not wasted much time with lame drills with a pocket stick. People claim to spar hard with them, but never go into detail. My hunch is that those with "expert and lengthy training" are only doing the bad drills like I have done, and like posted in the bad videos. I have yet to see any claims of Dog Brothers esque sparring with pocket sticks.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 30, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I've never disrespected anybody's right to believe anything. That website claims a kid can defend himself or herself from an adult with a big aluminum key. That is an outright lie. If somebody trys that rather than run. They could die in the worst case.



Which has nothing to do with this thread or your opinions on short stick fighting.  Stay on topic with us here.  Your experience is extremely limited and your arguments dubious - what say you now _on this topic_?


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm thinking, most likely an alternate agenda.


-Truth in combat is my only agenda.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Which has nothing to do with this thread or your opinions on short stick fighting. Stay on topic with us here. Your experience is extremely limited and your arguments dubious - what say you now _on this topic_?


-That key toy is a pocket stick. The web site makes claims about them. That is topical to this thread imo.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 30, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I have not wasted much time with lame drills with a pocket stick. People claim to spar hard with them, but never go into detail. My hunch is that those with "expert and lengthy training" are only doing the bad drills like I have done, and like posted in the bad videos. I have yet to see any claims of Dog Brothers esque sparring with pocket sticks.



And you likely won't because videos are just videos.  People who have received viable, effective training are, despite your implied assertions, not obliged to prove anything to you whatsover in this medium or otherwise.  

Your condemnation of things which you admittedly do not know much of proves the worthlessness of your arguments.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 30, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Truth in combat is my only agenda.



Yeah? Join the armed forces and take every weapon imaginable INTO combat - after expert training in all these things of course - and THEN we'll consider your arguments worth reading.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> And you likely won't because videos are just videos. People who have received viable, effective training are, despite your implied assertions, not obliged to prove anything to you whatsover in this medium or otherwise.
> 
> Your condemnation of things which you admittedly do not know much of proves the worthlessness of your arguments.


"Viable and effective" are subjective. I would argue that my hands on with pockets sticks is more than a lot of people's that claim their effectiveness.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Yeah? Join the armed forces and take every weapon imaginable INTO combat - after expert training in all these things of course - and THEN we'll consider your arguments worth reading.


-FYI, I am a Marine Corps vet. I was speaking in civilian terms though.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 30, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> "Viable and effective" are subjective.



So is being a Marine Corp vet. Did you go to combat? where and when? and how much expert training did you receive with the weapons you were afforded.



			
				RoninPimp said:
			
		

> I would argue that my hands on with pockets sticks is more than a lot of people's that claim their effectiveness.



OH?  You've only admitted to one class of training and trying with a short stick.  You think most people who claim effectiveness have not received more?


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> So is being a Marine Corp vet. Did you go to combat? where and when? and how much expert training did you receive with the weapons you were afforded.
> 
> 
> 
> OH? You've only admitted to one class of training and trying with a short stick. You think most people who claim effectiveness have not received more?


-Being a Marine Corps vet is not subjective. I have not seen combat. All my training with weapons was expert training as is the nature of Marine Corps training.

I said nothing about "one class of training". I have played with them with a parner on more than one occasion. Poking and prodding like the proponents of them demonstrate. I was underwhelmed.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 30, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Being a Marine Corps vet is not subjective. I have not seen combat. All my training with weapons was expert training as is the nature of Marine Corps training.


So then, if the only 'real' way to measure truth in combat is to be in combat itself, you have, admittedly, no leg to stand on.



			
				RoninPimp said:
			
		

> I said nothing about "one class of training". I have played with them with a parner on more than one occasion. Poking and prodding like the proponents of them demonstrate. I was underwhelmed.


Ah yes - the true test of training - poking and prodding and underwhelmhood.  I am reminded of self-training with swords and it's lack of viability and how vehemently those individuals are encouraged to train with people who have extensive, long-term training with weapons.  One does not simply hack and swing a sword, nor does one simply poke and prod with a stick.  Your lack of training shows and whether you like it or not, your opinion of the viability of training with such a weapon is moot because you do not have the proper training.  Hence, your agenda here is crystal clear.

And clearly I confused your argument with that of another here who did state he spent one class attempting the use of the short stick with grappling.  It's hard, sometimes, to tell you all apart.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 30, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> So then, if the only 'real' way to measure truth in combat is to be in combat itself, you have, admittedly, no leg to stand on.
> 
> 
> Ah yes - the true test of training - poking and prodding and underwhelmhood. I am reminded of self-training with swords and it's lack of viability and how vehemently those individuals are encouraged to train with people who have extensive, long-term training with weapons. One does not simply hack and swing a sword, nor does one simply poke and prod with a stick. Your lack of training shows and whether you like it or not, your opinion of the viability of training with such a weapon is moot because you do not have the proper training. Hence, your agenda here is crystal clear.
> ...


-NOBODY on this thread has civilian combat experiance with a pocket stick that they are willing to share. Their training with one is severly lacking in details too. The rest of your post attempts to insult, yet makes no sense. Your agenda as "queen bee" in "these here parts" is clear. I will not play that game. Mod status does not mean MA expertise.

I have stated my opinion and why I believe what I do. I will actually roll with a pocket stick when the training oportunity presents itself. I have strong evidence and logical critical thinking to support my view. I am done with this thread. Flame away people. You can have the last irrelavent to the topic words.


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## Don Roley (Apr 30, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I think that's a bad strategy imo. So a stick helps your striking, but if you're taking time to draw it when you could be striking empty hands or drawing a lethal weapon you're wasting time imo.



First of all, we already talked about how people are less likely to use lethal weapons than a stick on another. And the problems of trying to get to a weapon when things hit the fan. And you have ignored the idea of having the stick already in your hand as in the case of a flashlight. You seem to have built this up to make your point, but your underlying scenario is false.



> -A cop using a pocket stick doesn't mean it carries over to civilian SD. The cop's job and legal obligations are way different that a civilian's



Except that we were talking about how the pocket stick was used by folks like the Japanese police for centuries and they probably would not have if it had not been effective. Japanese police in the Edo period probably are not the same as modern day police, but the fact that they used the weapon to good effect does not change.



> "Viable and effective" are subjective. I would argue that my hands on with pockets sticks is more than a lot of people's that claim their effectiveness.



If you include me in that, you are wrong. I have been training with them for years under a qualified teacher. You fooled around with some buddies.



> -I have not wasted much time with lame drills with a pocket stick. People claim to spar hard with them, but never go into detail. My hunch is that those with "expert and lengthy training" are only doing the bad drills like I have done, and like posted in the bad videos. I have yet to see any claims of Dog Brothers esque sparring with pocket sticks.



You seem to mistake sparring with reality. I do not spar with pocket sticks. But I have done things like trying to get at my teacher by various means full out and I can tell you that he can use them very well. It was a testiment to his skill that he could do this without breaking some of my bones, but it was a very eye- opening experience. If you have nothave had the same experience, then you really have not had the full extent of training I have had and yet you seem willing to state with full confidence that things do not work.

As I said before, give up your ego, admit that just because you do not know how to do something does not mean that _nobody_ knows how to do it and keep an open mind. You own, limited, experience with teachers probably less qualified than even I should not be the basis on which you loudly reject this broad of a subject that has been tested as effective over centuries of use.


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## Carol (Apr 30, 2006)

So, on the subject of risk...

Is if fair to say that a risk of using pocket sticks is the reaction time?  That drawing a stick is be slower than using one's fists? 

If I were to grasp at some straws...would it also be fair to say that such a risk can be overcome with proper training...as proper training in any fighting skill addresses both use and application?


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 30, 2006)

At the risk of turning this thread into a flame war, I have to respond.


			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> You fooled around with some buddies.


I fooled around with some buddies, not Ronin. I was vastly underwhelmed by the pocketsticks potential for grappling. A lot of people criticized my methodology, and they were reasonably justified in doing so. However NONE of them gave me any evidence to show me why I was wrong.



			
				shesula said:
			
		

> And clearly I confused your argument with that of another here who did state he spent one class attempting the use of the short stick with grappling. It's hard, sometimes, to tell you all apart.


 
I can see that. We both made a reasonable argument about our beliefs, and both refuse to admit we are wrong without being shown evidence as to why. Keep in mind I only thing pocketsticks are useless for grappling. I actually think Ronin is being to hard on them. But at the same time no one has shown anything to change either one of our positions. It is clear what both of us want to see; some kind of proof that pocketsticks can be used in the manner people are claiming.


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## Don Roley (May 1, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> At the risk of turning this thread into a flame war, I have to respond.
> 
> I fooled around with some buddies, not Ronin. I was vastly underwhelmed by the pocketsticks potential for grappling. A lot of people criticized my methodology, and they were reasonably justified in doing so. However NONE of them gave me any evidence to show me why I was wrong.



Well, we already pointed out that you are trying to add on a weapon to a non weapon oriented art. You are in fact trying to put F-1 wheels on a Honda Civic and wondering why you can't get the same performance.

And we mentioned that there are several hundred years of cases where people in Japan have used pocket stick type weapons to good effect. It is not just the police use of them, but also civilian in the cases of things like _Kenka Kiseru_ and the like. It is hard to believe that anyone would use and develop a weapon that long if they found it ineffective in combat. 

Faced with your lack of success contrasted with this long history, the most simple and logical explination is that you guys just do not have the background or know how to make things like this work. You may not be able to make it work, but there are centuries of people who have. So please try to keep an open mind and take responsibilities for your own failure to understand.


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## Don Roley (May 1, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> So, on the subject of risk...
> 
> Is if fair to say that a risk of using pocket sticks is the reaction time?  That drawing a stick is be slower than using one's fists?
> 
> If I were to grasp at some straws...would it also be fair to say that such a risk can be overcome with proper training...as proper training in any fighting skill addresses both use and application?



Or, if you have something like a flashlight, could you not have it in your hand at the mere thought that there might be violence? Something that you could have in your hand that would not be classified as brandishing a weapon?

I am not a big fan of the idea of trying to get to a weapon after the stuff has hit the fan. If you don't have it in hand, you ain't going to get to it until you have dealt with the matter. Awareness can help a lot in either getting the heck out of the area before trouble happens and/or getting your weapon out. But being able to have something in your hands at all times is one of the big advantages of a pocket stick that also doubles as something else.

I could post a few links to films of attacks that ended up with someone dead. There is one of a woman attacked in an elevator in Russia, another of a man knifed at an ATM, etc. Martialtalk rules prevent me. But if you spend an afternoon searching the web and viewing these chilling things, you can understand why I am so opposed to the idea of betting on the idea that you can asses a situation and make a move to deploy your lethal weapon if that is what is required.

So the whole idea that you can deal with non- lethal attacks unarmed without a transitional weapon like a pocket stick and go straight to a lethal weapon when that is required is just plain wrong in my opinion. Watch some of the videos you can find on the web and try to tell me I am wrong about betting your life on that logic.


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## Hand Sword (May 1, 2006)

I agree with this. If your finger isn't already on the trigger (figure of speech, could be mace, etc..) before hand don't go for it after the fact. You won't have a chance. the first thing to go, when it really goes down are your motor skills. Pulling your hands out of your pocket will be difficult.


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## MJS (May 1, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I've never disrespected anybody's right to believe anything.


 
I have to disagree with this.  You've admitted that your training with these tools is limited at best, yet people have spoken about their effectiveness with them, yet you still continue to keep your eyes closed to what they're saying.  

It appears to me that no matter what the subject is, if you have not had success, you automatically assume that its nothing worth looking at.  



> So a stick helps your striking, but if you're taking time to draw it when you could be striking empty hands or drawing a lethal weapon you're wasting time imo


 
Keep in mind that every situation is not always going to require lethal measures.  As for taking the time to draw it, a kubotan, which can be carried with keys, would already be drawn, due to the fact that I have my keys out prior to reaching my car.  

In closing I will say this:  If you're going to contribute in a positive fashion, your thoughts, experience, etc. is more than welcome.  However, if your only goal, mission, etc. is to cause constant disruption, perhaps this is not the place for you.

Mike


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## Drac (May 2, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -The following is quoted on the site Drac linked..."If properly used and trained with this tool, even a child can escape from the attack of a full grown man." That is complete and utter BS. It is also irresponsible imo. The video is also a joke. This is one more piece of evidence showing why I believe pocket sticks are WAY over rated.


 
 Have you ever attended any of the PROTEK key training seminars or classes?? Then you have no idea what your talking about...


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## Carol (Nov 17, 2006)

This thread had a rather intense discussion of pocket sticks, and whether they are useful or not. 

There was something at work that made me think of bringing this back up. There is a part of the building where we are doing some remodeling. Across the floor were some old hunks of ceiling tile. I needed something at the other end of the room, but told the building manager I didn't want to walk across the tile given the shoes that I was wearing. 

He said it was OK, because the tile was about to be discarded. 

So, I walked across the ceiling tile and....claaaack claaack claaaaack...I was making a tremendous amount of racket doing it. My high heels (OK, they were more like 'medium-heels'" were puncturing the tile. Every step I made showed the print of my heel.

However, my 200+ pound building manager walked across it wearing his work shoes and he didn't have anywhere near the destructive effect on the tile. 

It made me think about how a small spike can concentrate a lot of force.

So, I'm wondering about this as an experiment. 

I'd like to take a large hunk of that old tile, or industrial styofoam, and mount it flush against a wall. Once in position, I'd hit one area with my bare knuckles, and another with a kubotan, then compare the indentations made from the impact.

I haven't done the experiment yet. However, I predict that the outcome would be...both made an impact, but the impact from the kubotan would be smaller, more focused, and much deeper.


What do you think?


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## KenpoTex (Nov 17, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> I haven't done the experiment yet. However, I predict that the outcome would be...both made an impact, but the impact from the kubotan would be smaller, more focused, and much deeper.
> 
> 
> What do you think?


I predict that your predictions will be correct


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## Drac (Nov 17, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> I haven't done the experiment yet. However, I predict that the outcome would be...both made an impact, but the impact from the kubotan would be smaller, more focused, and much deeper


 
I 've carried a Kubotan for years when my MA skills were in their infancy stage..As a bouncer I put a "hurtin" on a couple of bruisers striking with the end of the Kubotan into a "pec"..Then as well as now I perfer to use it as a control device...


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## John J (Nov 21, 2006)

The pocket stick by whatever name (kubotan, yawara or dulo-dulo) is a viable tool for self-defense as well as a training tool for general knife mechanics. You can strike, butt, thrust, shear, rake, control & lock. However, locks and controls will fail if you cannot tune your opponent especially one that is much bigger/stronger or drugged out. I have yet to see a realistic demo where the practitioner can use it w/o implementing strikes. Mind you, realistic means plenty of energy, aggression and/or resistance.


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## Bigshadow (Nov 21, 2006)

I carry a kubotan every day.  It is my key chain.


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## Drac (Nov 21, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> I carry a kubotan every day. It is my key chain.


 
Yep, me too...The Kubotan is on one set that I carry on duty and the ProTek key is on my car keys..So I never have to fumble around if I need one....


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## Drac (Nov 21, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> So, I walked across the ceiling tile and....claaaack claaack claaaaack...I was making a tremendous amount of racket doing it. My high heels (OK, they were more like 'medium-heels'" were puncturing the tile. Every step I made showed the print of my heel.What do you think?


 
I think I love the sound of a woman waking in heels....This post has NO revelance to this thread...It was just something that popped into my head..


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## arnisador (Nov 21, 2006)

Drac said:


> the ProTek key is on my car keys



I've heard of these. How do you like it? Obviously, you think it can be effective, I gather.


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## Drac (Nov 22, 2006)

arnisador said:


> I've heard of these. How do you like it? Obviously, you think it can be effective, I gather.


 
I love mine..No more difficult to use as a Kubotan, easier to grip as a matter of fact...and because they look like a large locker key you can carry them aboard an aircraft...


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## Bigshadow (Nov 22, 2006)

Drac said:


> Yep, me too...The Kubotan is on one set that I carry on duty and the ProTek key is on my car keys..So I never have to fumble around if I need one....



Mine is always in my pocket with my keys out, so I can grab it quickly.  When I am walking it is almost always in my hand.  Right underneath the kubotan is my CRKT EDC clipped in my pocket.

However, on another note, I can't say either would be the first thing I grab.  Chances are it wouldn't be, I would use them if they were in my hand already, I am sure, either way I would just do whatever as the situation unfolds, I don't have any pre-conceived notions of what I will do.  Although it is fun to fantasize about "What if's", however, too much will make you go blind! :uhyeah:  Blind to what actually unfolds and the possible ineffectiveness of the pre-recorded reaction.  Reality has a way of changing the situation.


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## Drac (Nov 22, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> When I am walking it is almost always in my hand


 
Same here...



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> ]However, on another note, I can't say either would be the first thing I grab. Chances are it wouldn't be, I would use them if they were in my hand already, I am sure, either way I would just do whatever as the situation unfolds


 
Ditto..


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## Shotochem (Nov 22, 2006)

Drac said:


> Same here...
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto..



As with me.  I've carried one for years. 

IMO, in the hands of a trained MA they can be real effective.

A rake across the metacarpals will break just about anyones grip on you.  The poking and thrusting may not kill but hurts like hell.  I also would not discount it as a flail when grabbed by the main keyring and swinging the kubaton and keys to any part of the face and eyes of an attacker.  

It won't drop him with out a real lucky on in a million shot to the temple but will stun, distract and may give a smaller weaker opponent a chance to escape.

I gave them as stocking stuffers to all of my female friends and family.  It is better than nothing while in a dark parking
lot going to your car.  Of course its always better to not be there.
                                                               -Marc-


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## Drac (Nov 22, 2006)

Shotochem said:


> I gave them as stocking stuffers to all of my female friends and family. It is better than nothing while in a dark parking
> lot going to your car. Of course its always better to not be there.
> -Marc-


 
What an excellent idea...


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## Bigshadow (Nov 22, 2006)

Drac said:


> What an excellent idea...



I was just thinking the same thing...  Thanks for the idea Shotochem!


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