# 6 Count De Cadena et al



## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2003)

Please see For Striking

And Please See For Blocking

Also See  For Passing

Or Technical Discussions


Basic 6 Count is a Two Person Drill

Player A and Player B

Player A will initiate with a number 12 strike.
Player B will Block the Number 12 will an umbrella Block.

Player B will follow the Umbrella Block up with a number 3 strike to Player A.
Player A will block the number three strike with a block to the left.

Player A will follow up from their block with a number eight strike to Player B.
Player B will step back with their right leg while passing the low line strike from right to left.

Player B will follow up with the pass with a Number 12 Strike to Player A.
Player A will execute an Umbrella Block.

Player A will follow up the Umbrella Blockwith a Number Three Strike to Player B.
Player B will execute a Block to the left.

Player B will follow up Block with a Number Eight Strike.
Player A will step back with the right leg and pass the strike from right to left.

Player A will step forward and Strike a Number 12 (* Beginning the process all over *)



(* added a link to the Passing Thread and Technical Discussions 10/27/03 *)


----------



## loki09789 (Oct 27, 2003)

I know as time went on, according to those who stayed w/MA that names have changed.  I read the sequence that you posted and it looks like a drill I learned as Sombrada.  Is it the same drill just with a different name - for what ever reason - or is there a subtle difference I am missing?

If it is the same basic pattern as Sombrada, I really liked this drill because of the rhythm.

Paul Martin


----------



## Guro Harold (Oct 27, 2003)

Generally speaking, the whole name for the drill is "six-count sumbrada".

There are different variations based on style.


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *Generally speaking, the whole name for the drill is "six-count sumbrada".
> 
> There are different variations based on style. *



We call it 3-count, but it's the same basic principle.  I think you've seen the different stuff Al and Andy have done with sumbrada, Palusut.  

Cthulhu


----------



## Guro Harold (Oct 27, 2003)

Hi Cthulhu,

Yeah, my brain is still fried from all the different switches!!!

Palusut


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *Hi Cthulhu,
> 
> Yeah, my brain is still fried from all the different switches!!!
> ...



Wait 'til the next Gathering...we'll see about getting you up to speed 

Cthulhu


----------



## arnisador (Oct 27, 2003)

My JKD instructor calls it Sombrada, and often adds a fourth strike (a #5) and a fifth strike (a #2 to the head, blocked with a wing block) to make it a ten-count drill.

I enjoy doing 6-count in espada y daga style!


----------



## Rocky (Oct 27, 2003)

Actually Modern Arnis 6 count was originally taught Espada y Daga, that would switch without interupting the flow, into stick to stick and eventually into empty hand trapping and into block and lock.

 But over the years GM Presas found it hard to teach at seminars so he changed it to stick to stick,  he also done away with  7 count Espada y Daga flow drill. 


Rocky


----------



## Guro Harold (Oct 27, 2003)

Hi Arnisador,

Yeah, adding a #5 and a #2/#7 (poke) makes it the 10 count sumbrada that is practiced in Modern Arnis.

If you like espada y daga, you might like the six-count sumbrada that Cthulhu and I have learned.

It is used in FCS but has its roots in Petiki-Tersia.  The motions and transitions tend to be faster because with a blade mindset, you are attempting to cut the closest object to you.

The drill is as following:

I. Person (A)  thrusts with #5. Person (B)  blocks with #5 payong (umbrella/ inside wing).

II. From umbrella block, person (B) then throws a vertical abanico to (A).
(A) Shifts and blocks abanico with slant payong (outside wing).

III.  Flowing from the payong block, (A) then throws an #8 strike.  (B) blocks with an #8.

The roles then are reversed.


Also note the reason that the name of the drill is because of the use of the sumbrada ("umbrella blocks").

Have fun,

Palusut


----------



## Emptyglass (Oct 27, 2003)

Hi all:

I really enjoy sumbrada drills as they teach you alot about positioning and footwork as well as proper striking angles depending on how you're taught/practice them in my opinion.

We do a sumbrada series that has 29 counts (odd number I know) which contains a 4 count, 10 count and 6 count series.

Some of the counts are repeated or half repeated on one side for transitions which gives you the odd number.

If anyone is interested I will try to get it down here on the post but please try it and let me know what you think if you ask for it as it will entail quite a bit of typing. 

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## lhommedieu (Oct 27, 2003)

Rich,

I'd be interested in learning more about your Sumbrada drills.

In the version of San Miguel Eskrima that I learned, similar drills are called "palusot."

Best,

Steve Lamade


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2003)

Yes this drill has many names, hence my choice of titles to include et al, meaning the and the rest.

The Paperwork I have from 1978, calls the drill 

Six Count De Cadena (* 8 & 10 Count Varients *)


De Cadena can be applied just about anywhere as it translates to my best ability to Chaining or Linking techniques together.



So, to have multple names does not surprise me.


:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2003)

Varients or Options

Instead of passing the low line number 8 strike you can also check it with your left hand and strike down to keep the same stick flow pattern.


Another option is too, to step back on the incoming low line number 8 strike and block with a down to the right.


All are very good for teaching the drill. I personally like the one I listed first, since this puts your left hand into a spot for disarms and also for the 10 count variation I wish to discuss next


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2003)

Player A will initiate with a number 12 strike.
Player B will Block the Number 12 will an umbrella Block.

Player B will follow the Umbrella Block up with a number 3 strike to Player A.
Player A will block the number three strike with a block to the left.

Player A will follow up from their block with a number eight strike to Player B.
Player B will step back with their right leg while passing the low line strike from right to left.

Player B's Left Hand should be on the inside of Players A's hand. This allows for you to continue with the pass and then insert a Number 5 Strike.

Player A will twirl/pull their cane out and execute a Vertical Block against the number 5.

Player A will then rechamber the cane and strike a number four back at Player B.

Player B will execute a Slanting Block or Wing Block against the number four strike.

Player B will then move onto the beginning and execute the number 12 strike.



I realize that Harold aka Palusut also described this, I just wanted to break it down and further detail.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Rich,
> 
> I'd be interested in learning more about your Sumbrada drills.
> ...



Steve,

Rich C or Rich P ?  

I assume you mean Rich C. As I am just following up on my original thoughts for this thread.

Best Regards
:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2003)

8 Count De Cadena is where only one person executes the thrust and the other one does not execute it. This is one of the first steps to sparring. As you do not know if your partner will thrust or not. This keeps you awake and paying attention in the drill.


Now you can Chain in or Link in more techniques from this and build on your base.

 :asian:


----------



## arnisador (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Instead of passing the low line number 8 strike you can also check it with your left hand and striek down to keep the same stick flow pattern.*



I kind of like that version for the flow of it even though I am so-so on it as a block.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I kind of like that version for the flow of it even though I am so-so on it as a block. *



Arnisador,

There are two ways to check. One your hand on top, where the empty hand and stick ar forcing the incoming strike down.

The second is to palm up check / block on the arm of the incoming strike and also use your cane to block the cane. This covers the whiplash effect of the incoming stike.

Of course this is always more


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Rich,
> 
> I'd be interested in learning more about your Sumbrada drills.
> ...




Rich C,

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your drill? Either in this thread or in a separate thread?

Thanks


----------



## arnisador (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *There are two ways to check. One your hand on top, where the empty hand and stick ar forcing the incoming strike down.
> 
> The second is to palm up check / block on the arm of the incoming strike and also use your cane to block the cane. This covers the whiplash effect of the incoming stike.*



Yes, this is what I was trying to describe--I like the former for the flow of the drill but the latter for safety's sake!

In fact I've seen the latter approach done two ways--one with the palm going from outside to inside and the stick crossing the same general way, and the other the reverse--the hands starting more-or-less crossed and the palm and stick each going inside-to-outside (the live hand guides the opponent's stick away, your stick guarding). I find the second form harder to get into position for, personally.


----------



## lhommedieu (Oct 28, 2003)

Rich P -

Yes, I meant Rich C - but am interested, of course, in anything anyone wants to contribute.  Two excercises from SME:

A:  Check w/ Daga & Strike #1
D:  Block Strike #1, Check w/ Daga, Strike #4 (to leg)

A:  Block w/ Stick in Vertical Position
D:  Backhand vertical flywheel

A:  Wing Block; rotate wrist and strike downward (MA #12?)
D:  Block (roof block), check w/ daga & Strike #1 to switch roles 

***						

A:  Check w/ Daga & Strike #1
D:  Block Strike #1, Check w/ Daga, Strike #4 (to hand or leg)

A:  Check Strike /w daga as you withdraw hand and rotate stick to outside to form low wing block (D's stick is momentarily between your daga and stick).  Continue rotation to deliver short Strike #4 to D's hand.

Drill can end here or D can withdraw hand and initiate Strike #1 from opposite hand to continue drill.

Best,

Steve Lamade


----------



## Emptyglass (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Rich C,
> 
> Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your drill? Either in this thread or in a separate thread?
> ...




Will do. Give me a bit to get the time to type it out.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## Dieter (Oct 28, 2003)

> Will do. Give me a bit to get the time to type it out.



Better just grab a camera, film it, digitize it and put it on the internet. Probably takes as long as to type in and is easier to follow.  


Just joking. Looking forward to see what you will write.
Would be interesting to see a while later, what different persons make out of what they read. Could be different.


Regards


Dieter


----------



## Emptyglass (Oct 28, 2003)

Deiter:

You'll have to do with the text I'm afraid.  I'll work on it later today.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## Emptyglass (Oct 28, 2003)

Hi all:

Again this is really 3 separate simple sumbradas that have been strung together to be one drill. A 4 count, a 10 count and a 6 count. I was taught them separately at first and then in combined fashion. I 'll type them separately at first and then combined at the end.

First drill:

Beginning position is attcker in the ready (whatever ready position your system uses) and defender in the position we call "old man waiting for the bus", basically hands in front at waist level with empty hand over weapon hand facing the attacker in a realxed position. By the way, these drills are presented here for the single stick reference. they can easily be done with the blade of varying lengths or the empty hand, however there would have to be angulation and footwork/distance changes to account for the other weapons.

1. Attacker swings #12 downward vertical strike at crown of defender. Defender does payong defense.
2. Defender swings #12 downward vertical strike at crown of attacker. Attacker does payong defense.
3. Attacker swings #12 downward vertical strike at crown of defender. Defender does slant/wing/roof defense.
4. Defender swings #12 downward vertical strike at crown of attacker. Attacker does slant/wing/roof defense.

This is then repeated. This sumbrada is for working out the proper angulation, shifting, footwork and movement for the static payong and wing block. Increased force and movement to make the defender and attacker stick or follow one another's lead make it more challenging. you can also mix up the angle of delivery overhead, levels of attack and the order of defenses. However, it works best when the blocks are done in pairs (ie: payong following payong and wing following wing) Very simple but interesting. I hope you folks give it a try and enjoy it.

Up next, Sumbrada 2, 10 count when I get the time to type it.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## lhommedieu (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Varients or Options
> 
> Instead of passing the low line number 8 strike you can also check it with your left hand and strike down to keep the same stick flow pattern.
> ...


* 

One that I learned involves the defender bending the knees and dropping the stick into a vertical block (the assumption here is that you don't have time to move the leg back).  The attacker now has the opportunity to attack again with a backhand vertical cut to the head, to which the defender responds with an outside wingblock, etc.

Best,

Steve Lamade*


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *One that I learned involves the defender bending the knees and dropping the stick into a vertical block (the assumption here is that you don't have time to move the leg back).  The attacker now has the opportunity to attack again with a backhand vertical cut to the head, to which the defender responds with an outside wingblock, etc.
> 
> Best,
> ...



Steve,

Yes, I like this one my self. Yet it is hard to get students to 'genuflect', or to understand the bending of the knees 

Very Good Point, that there is always one more option. 


:asian:


----------



## lhommedieu (Oct 29, 2003)

re. the aforementioned drill: 

One point I make to students is that A's #8 to the leg does not necessarily have any windup after A's block to D's #3 strike.  It can simply fall and damage the quadriceps or TFL attachments at the bottom of the femur, smack the knee, etc.  If you see a windup, however, it may be possible to angle or move to a better position, so there are other options that give you more mobility.

The point of _any_ response to a #8 strike or anything similar is _protect the leg _ - either by moving it or by getting something in the way.  I've been tagged enough times to know it ain't easy...

Best,

Steve Lamade


----------



## Black Grass (Oct 30, 2003)

Patterns for counter for counter drills are nice to learn initially but ultimately you should try to do counter for counter free form. Any block  can be followed up with any strike not just prescribled ones. In Lameco and Ilustrisimo this is called laro-laro (play play). Not knowing where the next strike is going to come frok next, you must be more aware of not anticipating and over committing. I also like to move between ranges. Personally I often like to defend from long range and move back into medium range to counter attack.

Another way I like to do counter for counter is to pick an angle of attack an only use that angle. Partner A can attack and counter in anyway he choose, partner B can block or parry in anyway but must attack on the prescribed angle.

An example off the top of my head: 

A attacks with #12
B counters /w roof

B attacks #2
A  blocks basic # 2 

A attacks #1
B crossadas

B attacks #2
A wings

A attacks #4
B blocks basic # 4

B attacks #2
A covers and steps out of range

A moves back into medium range attacks # 5 
B palis-palis

B attacks #2
you get the idea....


In addition this also encourages footwork. Just some ideas to add to your mix. 

Regards,

Vince
aka Black Grass


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> *Patterns for counter for counter drills are nice to learn initially but ultimately you should try to do counter for counter free form. Any block  can be followed up with any strike not just prescribled ones. In Lameco and Ilustrisimo this is called laro-laro (play play). Not knowing where the next strike is going to come frok next, you must be more aware of not anticipating and over committing. I also like to move between ranges. Personally I often like to defend from long range and move back into medium range to counter attack.
> ....
> In addition this also encourages footwork. Just some ideas to add to your mix.
> ...



Vince,

This is exactly where you should go with your drills. It should be free *Flowing* and random when yuo finally get it it all put together.

The drills a re jsut that drills . As Rich Curren stated they ling multple drills together. I do the same in our club. From the basic Semi-sparring to 6/8/10 Count to Palis Palis and Crossada Flow Drills. You might take a different path, and yet you are ready for what is coming at you from your opponent.

Great Discussion.

Other Comments or patterns?

Thanks!


----------



## Emptyglass (Oct 31, 2003)

Hi all:

This second sumbrada is probably familiar to alot of people. I called it 10 count initially, but thinking about it, it is really a 5 count sumbrada on each side. Sorry for the confusion.

Here it is:

1. A: Forehand stike to temple
2. D: Fluid umbrella block around the head
3. D: Forehand strike to temple
4. A: Inside deflection
5. A: Forehand strike to elbow
6. D: Drop stick deflection with palm up to control weapon hand
7. D: Sak-Sak to midsection
8. A: Inside low umbrella/push block to deflect thrust.
9. A: Backhand strike to temple
10. D: Fluid umbrella block

Attacker and Defender will now switch roles beginning with the forehand strike to the temple.

Sumbrada #3 - 3 count:

This sumbrada is from the Pambuan system of Arnis and is a bit different as attacker and defender each throw 3 consecutive strikes and defenses rather than in a 1 to 1 pattern. This really changes the timing when mixed with 1 to 1 sumbradas. I believe that this sumbrada helps you to become used to being on the defensive if your opponent catches you by surprise or if you slip or if the opponent is a bit faster than you. It also mixes up your timing a bit if combined with the 1 to 1 drills.

1. A: Backhand to temple
2. D: Wing block
3. A: Backhand to elbow
4. D: Drop stick and pass with empty hand/daga
5. A: Sak-Sak
6. D: Counter thrust tip block


Next, 29 counts combined.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## lhommedieu (Oct 31, 2003)

Thanks Rich.  One question:  a "flowing umbrella" to a backhand strike (last count of the "10 count") - is that the same as what some people call a "wing block," OR...are you steppng to the right and passing the strike to the left with a standard umbrella?  Both work well depending on the timing.

We have a drill called "Tres-Tres," which is basically a Sumbrada done with lateral stepping (to the right or left, depending on the block and counter).  I've heard that there may be similar drills in Doce Pares.  Does anyone here do anything similar?

Best,

Steve Lamade


----------



## Mark Lynn (Nov 1, 2003)

I have a couple of questions on these drills.

I have seen these drills spelled different ways is there any proper way to spell sembrada, sumbrada, sombrada?

I have heard that sumbrada translated to shadow (I think from asking GM Remy about it) so we have always refered to it as shadow boxing (in a sense).  (I think he made some refernece to the light cast by a street light or something of that nature.)

How do you teach it?  Just out of curiosity I ask this?  I learned many of the sumbrada drills at first in the Inosanto blend method of the FMA.  Which are very similar to the drills as described here, however most of the time it was at seminars and we learned the whole drill in one shot (plus inserts etc. etc.)  Generally it was how I passed them on to training partners as well.  Later on it was the Tapi Tapi drills that I learned in Modern Arnis in this same format.

However years ago I was watching a seminar of tape Guro Inosanto where he mentioned to the group of students something about how this was a year long class (or something) on the aspects of the drill at his academy.  And then at the symposium Datu Hartman told us that he taught the Tapi drills in a similar format of the application of the technique instead of the flow of the drill.

I was teaching a student the other night the 3 (or 6 count sumbrada pattern) and he was having problems with it.  I then stopped the drill and led him through the application of the techniques as a drill (over and over again) and then we went back to the flow drill.  He got it in a much faster format and he understood the drill better (his words not mine).

So do you teach the application of the moves first or the flow of the pattern?  How did GM Remy teach it to the older students from back in the 80's.

And for what it's worth, I was never taught the pattern from GM Remy (in Modern Arnis) till after his passing.  The first time I saw (other than the first tape series) the six count drill was at the 2002 Houston camp and Gabbi showed it to us.  Saying that it was one of the old drills?

Last question.  At what point do you start teaching the drill, what level are your students?  What level was it taught by GM Remy back in the old days?

Mark Lynn


----------



## arnisador (Nov 1, 2003)

Yes, it seemed to me that it was mostly taught in the 80s and even then it was more on-the-side than a main part of things. Other people may have a different impression.

I don't emphasize it. I tecah it whenever--the strikes/blocks aren't complicated, but a student must have certain degree of "flow" to get it down. I like to use it by teaching it stick-only first then adding the daga as I think it is a great way to bring out the idea that If you want to understand what the live hand is doing, stick a knife in it. I consider this a crucial FMA principle.


----------



## Mark Lynn (Nov 1, 2003)

Just for grins I wonder about these things as well.

1) When you refer to the #3 is it a high #3 as in a horizontal strike to the shoulder or low as to the hip?

When I learned the patterns it was more of a #1 (diagonal to the shoulder) and instead of the #8 to the leg it was a low #3 to the hip.

The low #3 to the hip can be blocked by the drop stick or a low wing (with a checking or passing hand), and if I remember correctly range, timing, determined what was used.

2)  Is there any real history behind this (these) drill(s) since they seem pretty universal and they cross over a bunch of systems.  In one of the Budo International mags there was some sort of sword system that in pictures showed basically this same drill.  (I know this was discussed somewhere before, I was just using this as an example of the cross over point.)

3) Do any of you throw in inserts into the drills, like low kicks, punches, thrust with the daga, locks and chokes, disarms.

4) What about mixing in the Tapi drills with the sumbrada patterns?  Anyone try this?

5) Do you teach different weapon combinations for the patterns, stick vs knife, dobule stick vs double or single stick, espada y daga vs......? 

FWIW I had pretty much abandoned (put off) teaching these patterns since I had asked GM Remy when I should teach his Tapi Tapi material (thinking high green or brown belt level, silly me) when he replied from the begining (meaning begining students).  I figured if I taught the Tapi versions the concepts of leading the person (setting them up in the Tapi drills) would conflict with the I feed and you feed (shadow) type patterns.

Mark


----------



## Mark Lynn (Nov 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Yes, it seemed to me that it was mostly taught in the 80s and even then it was more on-the-side than a main part of things. Other people may have a different impression.
> 
> I don't emphasize it. I tecah it whenever--the strikes/blocks aren't complicated, but a student must have certain degree of "flow" to get it down. I like to use it by teaching it stick-only first then adding the daga as I think it is a great way to bring out the idea that If you want to understand what the live hand is doing, stick a knife in it. I consider this a crucial FMA principle. *



On the side?  Or were the other drills/techniques emphasized more.  I guess on the side I envision when GM would take people off to the side and show them stuff (such as in the Tapi drills) here do this I want you to get this down so to speak.

I agree with the daga/live hand being a crucial FMA principle.

Mark


----------



## arnisador (Nov 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by The Boar Man _
> *On the side?  Or were the other drills/techniques emphasized more.*



The two times I remember doing it at camps, advanced students were off to the side doing it while beginning students were working on something else.

I don't ever remember it being taught in the main segment of a camp or seminar. I could be misremembering of course.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Thanks Rich.  One question:  a "flowing umbrella" to a backhand strike (last count of the "10 count") - is that the same as what some people call a "wing block," OR...are you steppng to the right and passing the strike to the left with a standard umbrella?  Both work well depending on the timing.
> 
> We have a drill called "Tres-Tres," which is basically a Sumbrada done with lateral stepping (to the right or left, depending on the block and counter).  I've heard that there may be similar drills in Doce Pares.  Does anyone here do anything similar?
> ...



Steve,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I have been busy with work and the WMAA Mi Camp 

The Flowing portion of the Umbrella is that it just flows into this motion and is also a cutting motion. So, the answer is just Umbrella. The Wing Block or Slanting Block or the horizontal block if you take it on your right side by stepping / zoming to your left.

Does this answer your question?

Best Regards
 :asian:


----------



## lhommedieu (Nov 3, 2003)

Rich,

Yes - thanks.

Interesting that many students initially assume that the umbrella is intended for forehand hits and the wing block for backhand hits.  It's a nice revelation when they realize that, with proper angling and footwork, the umbrella can be used against backhands and the wing block against forehands - and the counter is often faster because the force is deflected on a similar angle instead of force to force...

Best,

Steve


----------



## Black Grass (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by The Boar Man _
> *Just for grins I wonder about these things as well.
> 
> 2)  Is there any real history behind this (these) drill(s) since they seem pretty universal and they cross over a bunch of systems.  In one of the Budo International mags there was some sort of sword system that in pictures showed basically this same drill.  (I know this was discussed somewhere before, I was just using this as an example of the cross over point.)
> ...



Sumbrada as it is called by JKD/Kali comes from Cables Serrada. In Serrada it is free form. Guro Inosanto broke he drill down in to the various sub drills like 6 count and 10 count. Cabales was the student of Dizon (Decuerdas)who was the training partner of Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo (Kalis Ilustrisimo)who is the cousin of Floro Villabrille (Villabrille style)  and teacher of the late Edgar Sulite (Lameco). Hence you will see a similar drill in these Systems.

I was told years ago (by a JKD instructor ) that the Prof. actually got 6 count from Inosanto, not in a teacher student relationship but via observation. This lead to some kind of fricton between the two, as prof did not give credit to Inosanto. Can anyone verify or discount this accusation.

Regards,
Vince
Black Grass


----------



## Cruentus (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *Actually Modern Arnis 6 count was originally taught Espada y Daga, that would switch without interupting the flow, into stick to stick and eventually into empty hand trapping and into block and lock.
> 
> But over the years GM Presas found it hard to teach at seminars so he changed it to stick to stick,  he also done away with  7 count Espada y Daga flow drill.
> ...



I actually learned it this way also. I always stress that 6 count was originally a blade (espada y daga) exercise, that can be modified to fit the stick. I think that this is important because the footwork and blocking methods are more condusive for the blade rather then the stick. My own personal modification to the drill when going stick vs. stick is to eliminate the umbrella block, and do a slip - hand parry - stick parry - into the #3 strike, which to me is more condusive of a stick vs. stick fight.

btw Rich Curren mentioned 5 count. Wow! There was an oldie but a goodie. I remember doing that when I first started the art! It was taught to me by my old instructor Ted Redish.


----------



## Cruentus (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> *Sumbrada as it is called by JKD/Kali comes from Cables Serrada. In Serrada it is free form. Guro Inosanto broke he drill down in to the various sub drills like 6 count and 10 count. Cabales was the student of Dizon (Decuerdas)who was the training partner of Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo (Kalis Ilustrisimo)who is the cousin of Floro Villabrille (Villabrille style)  and teacher of the late Edgar Sulite (Lameco). Hence you will see a similar drill in these Systems.
> 
> I was told years ago (by a JKD instructor ) that the Prof. actually got 6 count from Inosanto, not in a teacher student relationship but via observation. This lead to some kind of fricton between the two, as prof did not give credit to Inosanto. Can anyone verify or discount this accusation.
> ...




There was friction between the 2, but I heard it was the other way around. Inosanto was linked up with Leo Gaje, and GM Gaje was being recognized as the "Founder of Modern Arnis" which was completely inaccurate as this was Remy Presas' recognition/ title in the PI. Inosanto also recieved much recognition for propigating the PI arts, when realistically Inosanto was all american. Remy Presas saw this as a misrepresentation, especially considering that he was the one who worked very hard to bring Filipino MA back to his own culture in the PI, and he was also propigating the art as an ambassador for the PI, yet no credit was given to Remy. Inasanto has good material and is talented, don't get me wrong, but his training came from Bruce Lee, and other Filipino masters such as Cabales and Villabrille who were in america, not the PI. When Remy Presas came to states he was seen as a threat, and there was a huge feud between the Pekiti people and Professor. It didn't help that the reason for Professor ending up in the U.S. was due to a problem with the dictatorship in the PI, who ripped his own organization that he worked to build away from him. So, he wasn't in the best of sorts as you could imagine when the feud between Gaje and him occured. Naturally, Inosanto was lumped right along with the "other side" of the feud, as I understand it. I will say that it was my perception that the fued was carried out more so by the students of Gaje, Inosanto, and Presas, rather then the men themselves. Regardless, it got pretty ugly as I understand it between all parties involved.

So, that was the way I understood the situation. If there is anyone else who might know more about the issue, please share. One thing that I am pretty sure of, though, is that the feud wasn't over a drill. 

btw - My understanding was that 6 count came from Presas' Espada Y Daga family system that he learned from his grandfather. Can anyone besides me verify this?

  :asian:


----------



## Toasty (Nov 5, 2003)

Hiya Rocky,
Actually, it wasnt obvious that you were using a figure of speech.
Had i thought that, I wouldn't have written anything and just chalked it up to "Rocky-isms" 
It's just that this particular book gets maligned all the time and it's mostly because most people can't be bothered to read on the freaking cover that it says "AS TAUGHT by Dan Inosanto" - not AS TAUGHT by Remy Presas, or by me , or by you and not even by those damn aliens who apparently keep abducting you in your sleep ( I dont even want to know about any probing dude )
So the fact that Guro Inosanto never trained in (and there for doesnt teach...) modern arnis, the following point that he left Prof. Presas out is actually moot.


anyway, a silly discussion.
Rob


----------



## Rocky (Nov 5, 2003)

Hey Rob,


 Ya know what all this stuff proves???? It just proves that they were men, talented men but none the less just men.


Rocky


----------



## lhommedieu (Nov 6, 2003)

> I always stress that 6 count was originally a blade (espada y daga) exercise...



Interesting to hear this because we don't really dont offer much single stick training;  most of the drills and exercises that I learned are for espada y daga.

As a preparatory exercise for palusot" drills, for example, the defender initially blocks all the strikes, while the attacker to trains how to check the defender's stick with the daga to keep him from getting the next block on line.  For example, if I forehand strike to my opponent and he blocks the strike, my daga will momentarily check his stick on the _opposite side_ of the stick of which my stick has just made contact.  This can make it more difficult for him to block the backhand strike that occurs next, as it puts an obstacle in the way of moving the stick to block the next strike.

Best,

Steve Lamade


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 6, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Just for grins I wonder about these things as well.
> 
> 1) When you refer to the #3 is it a high #3 as in a horizontal strike to the shoulder or low as to the hip?
> 
> ...



Mark,

The description you gave is valid. I have seen it done this way. Neither way is wrong and neither way is more right.  The reason I choose the description above, is not only he basic pattern we teach, it covers high/mid/low strikes and blocks. This in essence then teaches you how to cover strikes in all areas of the body. The more high srikes may be more applicable in the sense that many people are head hunters to knock people out. I would hope that after a while the student should be able to do both forms, and then it almos becomes a free form sparring drill, for this means that the strike could be either high or low on this side of the body, or a thrust or no thrust, which keeps the students awake, and paying attention to the task at hand.

:asian:


----------

