# dont buy the official taekwondo training manual



## bigfootsquatch (May 14, 2007)

http://www.amazon.com/Official-Taek...3445702?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179198129&sr=8-1

Bad stances, the authors demo high punches and kicks when the text often calls for middle kicks, and even the wrong foot forward once, get richard chun for good taekwondo, i cant believe the wtf stamped its approval on this....seriously a middle punch is not above the nose =\ nor is a middle front kick above the head

plus, for this to be a training manual, very little goes in the way of basics, maybe 3-4 pages.....anyway i would get richard chuns taekwondo and advancing in taekwondo rather than this

anyone else know of good poomse books(pal gwe especially)?
(sorry if my message is choppy, it was typed on a laptop with a dying battery)


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## K31 (May 15, 2007)

This book has all the Palgwe forms in diagram and text form and it's cheap:

http://www.taekwondotimes.com/portal/store/store.asp?nProductID=18119


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## exile (May 15, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Official-Taek...3445702?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179198129&sr=8-1
> 
> Bad stances, the authors demo high punches and kicks when the text often calls for middle kicks, and even the wrong foot forward once, get richard chun for good taekwondo, i cant believe the wtf stamped its approval on this....seriously a middle punch is not above the nose =\ nor is a middle front kick above the head
> 
> ...



I've heard the same thing from other people about the book. One thing that irritates me in particular: having an endorsement from the WTF and being an `official' training manual _for_ the WTFwhatever that might mean!!are not necessarily the same thing. The WTF is in the competitive sport TKD regulation business; technical content is the province of the Kukkiwon. The two are intertwined but not the same. I don't know what it _means_ to be the `official training manual' for an international big-$$$ sport management organizationor maybe I do: just another bit of hyped-up blather... 



K31 said:


> This book has all the Palgwe forms in diagram and text form and it's cheap:
> 
> http://www.taekwondotimes.com/portal/store/store.asp?nProductID=18119



Thanks for the link!


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## IcemanSK (May 15, 2007)

I was given this book as a gift. I used it while reconnecting with the Tae Guek poomsae. This & Sang H. Kim's videos were a big help to me as I remebered them. (I recommend Master Kim's videos much more, however.) I agree that if you hadn't learned them before, the books aren't as helpful as one would want.


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## K31 (May 15, 2007)

I second Master Sang Kim's Palgwe Poomsae video. Very nicely done, shows the form from a number of angles and even goes through it again with the Korean and English name for each block, punch, kick and stance.


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## Miles (May 16, 2007)

This series (Vol 2) has the Palgwe poomsae:http://www.sangmoosa.com/ProductInfo.asp?ProductID=219&Section=48

Miles


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## exile (May 16, 2007)

Another excellent source for information on the Palgwes: Marc Tedeschi's massive encyclopædic _Taekwondo: Traditions, Philosophy, Technique_. Every palgwe is given in a detailed move-by-move breakdown, with an exceptionally clear photograph accompanying every move, including insets showing the move from the front if the demonstrater's back, because of the original orientation, is to the reader at the given point in the demonstration. There are detailed comments on some of the more problematic or seemingly confusing moves in each of the Palgwe hyungs. The whole volume, all 900 pages of it, is authoritative and monumental; but at around a dime a page, is one of the more expensive single volume works in the TKD literature. 

What we _don't_ haveyetis a comprehensive guide to bunkai for the Palgwes. Stuart Anslow has published the first of a mulitvolume project on ITF hyung bunkai, and Simon O'Neil's book will be out sometime next year. But, in my correspondence with him, he's made it pretty clear that he will be giving primary attention to the taegeuks, and some of the black belt hyungs, but pretty much ignoring the Palgwesa pity, I think, but it _does_ leave an open door for someone with the required expertise in bunkai interpretation and practical knowledge of the Palgwes... anyone interested? You've got at least one customer already...


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## stoneheart (May 17, 2007)

The Official Training Manual suffices as a cheap (around $12 at Amazon) description of both the Palgwe and Tae Guk forms.  No, I don't think the demonstrator is especially good either, but if you pay attention to the text descriptions, it works fine for what it is.


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## exile (May 17, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> The Official Training Manual suffices as a cheap (around $12 at Amazon) description of both the Palgwe and Tae Guk forms.  No, I don't think the demonstrator is especially good either, but if you pay attention to the text descriptions, it works fine for what it is.



I have an earlier edition, which doesn't have the Palgwes at all. They're actually present in _this_ edition?? That's very interesting, given the near-suppression of the Palgwes by the big Korean orgs during the past few decades. I figured they were going to go the way of the Pyung-Ahn hyungs. Maybe they're coming back into vogue? I've heard from people who compete that forms competitors are turning back to the Palgwes to attract attention, after a decade or so where the judges see nothing but the Taegeuks all day long... does anyone have any insights on this development, if it actually exists?


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## IcemanSK (May 17, 2007)

exile said:


> I have an earlier edition, which doesn't have the Palgwes at all. They're actually present in _this_ edition?? That's very interesting, given the near-suppression of the Palgwes by the big Korean orgs during the past few decades. I figured they were going to go the way of the Pyung-Ahn hyungs. *Maybe they're coming back into vogue?* I've heard from people who compete that forms competitors are turning back to the Palgwes to attract attention, after a decade or so where the judges see nothing but the Taegeuks all day long... does anyone have any insights on this development, if it actually exists?


 
I've been wondering the same thing, lately. I've hearda lot of folks talking about the fact that they do them at their schools (ussually after BB). I like it when people are getting exposed to more parts of the Art, rather than less.


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## stoneheart (May 17, 2007)

Yes, the red and black cover version does contain the Palgwe forms.  I bought a copy last year exactly for that reason, since I have no interest in the newer Tae Guk forms which are performed from the "walking stance".  No offense intended to anyone who practices them, but yuck.


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## Miles (May 17, 2007)

exile said:


> I have an earlier edition, which doesn't have the Palgwes at all. They're actually present in _this_ edition?? That's very interesting, given the near-suppression of the Palgwes by the big Korean orgs during the past few decades. I figured they were going to go the way of the Pyung-Ahn hyungs. Maybe they're coming back into vogue? I've heard from people who compete that forms competitors are turning back to the Palgwes to attract attention, after a decade or so where the judges see nothing but the Taegeuks all day long... does anyone have any insights on this development, if it actually exists?


 
The USTU allowed poomsae competitors to perform the Palgwe series appropriate to their rank.  I have been out of the USAT loop so am not sure if this is still the case.  My understanding is that most every other country just competes under the Taeguek series.

RE: Pyung Ahns-I started relearning and will be teaching these as a tribute to the evolution of TKD.  


Miles


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## terryl965 (May 17, 2007)

Miles said:


> The USTU allowed poomsae competitors to perform the Palgwe series appropriate to their rank. I have been out of the USAT loop so am not sure if this is still the case. My understanding is that most every other country just competes under the Taeguek series.
> 
> RE: Pyung Ahns-I started relearning and will be teaching these as a tribute to the evolution of TKD.
> 
> ...


 
Yes Miles they still allow the Palgwe in the USAT but alot of the official have no ideal what it is they are looking at.

I'm with you in teaching the PyungAhns to keep the evolution trail going.


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## Laurentkd (May 17, 2007)

exile said:


> Another excellent source for information on the Palgwes: Marc Tedeschi's massive encyclopædic _Taekwondo: Traditions, Philosophy, Technique_. Every palgwe is given in a detailed move-by-move breakdown, with an exceptionally clear photograph accompanying every move, including insets showing the move from the front if the demonstrater's back, because of the original orientation, is to the reader at the given point in the demonstration. There are detailed comments on some of the more problematic or seemingly confusing moves in each of the Palgwe hyungs. The whole volume, all 900 pages of it, is authoritative and monumental; but at around a dime a page, is one of the more expensive single volume works in the TKD literature.


 
I have seen this book online before, but hadn't heard anyone's reviews on it.  Maybe I'll have to start saving my pennies (I am a sucker for good MA books)



> What we _don't_ haveyetis a comprehensive guide to bunkai for the Palgwes. Stuart Anslow has published the first of a mulitvolume project on ITF hyung bunkai, and Simon O'Neil's book will be out sometime next year.


 
If it's not too much trouble sir, will you keep us updated on the release of Simon O'Neil's book (or is there a site we can watch for it on)?


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## Last Fearner (May 18, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Official-Taek...3445702?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179198129&sr=8-1
> 
> Bad stances, the authors demo high punches and kicks when the text often calls for middle kicks, and even the wrong foot forward once, get richard chun for good taekwondo, i cant believe the wtf stamped its approval on this....seriously a middle punch is not above the nose =\ nor is a middle front kick above the head
> 
> plus, for this to be a training manual, very little goes in the way of basics, maybe 3-4 pages.....


 
I have not seen this book that you linked, but I will say that it is not uncommon to find mistakes in most of the Taekwondo Manuals (or other Martial Art books for that matter)  Almost every one of the "official" books that I own are riddled with pen marks crossing out mistakes in names of techniques, stances, improper Korean terminology (even books written by Koreans - mostly it is an editing problem).  Left and right stances are often switched, and photos don't always match what is described.

Personally, I am not that big of a fan of seeking "accurate" books because I believe that students should learn from instructors to get things right.  Instructors should learn from their Masters, and Masters from their Grandmasters.  If this chain of dissemination of information is kept in tact, we don't need books except as simple reminders of what you have been taught so you can practice on the days you are training alone.  I don't care much for books that elaborate on the basics.  Let the student get that from their instructor and develop a personal relationship and value for human instruction.

For a book to presume to teach someone "correctly" is to assume that people should learn from books.  Personally, I don't want that good of information being readily available to the fakes and frauds who try to impersonate legit instructors.  Many never earned their Black Belts, let alone teaching credentials, and they don't have any senior instructors to guide them and keep them on the right path.  They open fraudulent schools, run into their back office and read a few pages in a textbook, then run out on the floor and try to teach students as though they are some kind of expert in Taekwondo.

I prefer to see books present things a little off from reality.  It helps to distinguish from those who are learning properly from a genuine Master, using books only for reminders, and those who are paper-masters - who probably scanned the images and Korean Hangul off the cover of some book to make their own Black Belt certificate at Kinkos.

I think you should be proud of the fact that you can open a "Taekwondo training manual" and tell which books are a little off, and which ones are complete trash.  Then, I would suggest throwing the book on a shelf somewhere and get back to real training!  

Just a different perspective from an old geezer! :mst: 

CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## exile (May 18, 2007)

Miles said:


> RE: Pyung Ahns-I started relearning and will be teaching these as a tribute to the evolution of TKD.



Good for you, Miles! My instructor teaches the Pyung-Ahns, and in addition we also learn a number of Japanese kata, in line with the original Song Moo Kwan curriculum whose core was the Pinan/Heian kata, Rohai, and several others favored by Gm. Byung Jik Ro, the Kwan founder.





terryl965 said:


> Yes Miles they still allow the Palgwe in the USAT but alot of the official have no ideal what it is they are looking at.
> 
> I'm with you in teaching the Pyung-Ahns to keep the evolution trail going.



Good on you too, Terry. The Pinans/Pyung-Ahns are in a way the foundation of the karate-based MAs; there is no way they should ever have been jettisoned, Korean nationalism or no Korean nationalism. 



Laurentkd said:


> If it's not too much trouble sir, will you keep us updated on the release of Simon O'Neil's book (or is there a site we can watch for it on)?



No trouble at all, Lauren! I'm anxiously awaiting it myself. Simon O'Neil's site is at

http://www.combat-tkd.com/Ctkd1/home.php

I would expect an announcement there about the book. I actually may write him and ask him what the state of things is, and if I get any info I'll definitely post it.


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## Laurentkd (May 18, 2007)

exile said:


> Good for you, Miles! My instructor teaches the Pyung-Ahns, and in addition we also learn a number of Japanese kata, in line with the original Song Moo Kwan curriculum whose core was the Pinan/Heian kata, Rohai, and several others favored by Gm. Byung Jik Ro, the Kwan founder.


 
While I COMPLETELY agree with Master Eisenhart that forms should not be learned from a book....

Does anyone recommed one with the Pyung-Ahns in them? I know my instructor learned them from him waaaay back in the day, but then when the forms changed they stopped reviewing the Pyung-Ahns at his dojang.  He would love to pick them back up again I would love learning them, but his master lives across the country so it is not real practical to try to learn them from him again.  However, if we had a good book my instructor thinks he can "fill in the gaps" of sections that he has forgotten. 

Any suggestions??
And then of course you'll have to tell me all the moves you crossed out and corrected!


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## exile (May 18, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> Does anyone recommed one with the Pyung-Ahns in them? I know my instructor learned them from him waaaay back in the day, but then when the forms changed they stopped reviewing the Pyung-Ahns at his dojang.  He would love to pick them back up again I would love learning them, but his master lives across the country so it is not real practical to try to learn them from him again.  However, if we had a good book my instructor thinks he can "fill in the gaps" of sections that he has forgotten.



Laurentake a look at _Tang Soo Do: the Ultimate Guide to the Korean Martial Art_ by Kang Uk Lee (1999, Unique Publications). It has all five of the Pyung Ahns, very well illustrated, with a sequence of photo displaying the moves followed by a chart showing correct foot positions for each of the movesan unusual pairing of graphic aids that makes the intended motions as transparent as possible. 

There are a number of other Okinawan kata forms in there, though the Rohai we do is a bit more elaborate than what Lee's book gives.


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## stoneheart (May 18, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> Does anyone recommed one with the Pyung-Ahns in them? I know my instructor learned them from him waaaay back in the day, but then when the forms changed they stopped reviewing the Pyung-Ahns at his dojang.  He would love to pick them back up again I would love learning them, but his master lives across the country so it is not real practical to try to learn them from him again.  However, if we had a good book my instructor thinks he can "fill in the gaps" of sections that he has forgotten.




I like this book myself.  http://www.amazon.com/Tae-Kwon-Clas...2827138?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179516641&sr=8-2

It's a book of the classic Chung Do Kwan forms up to the dan levels.  It has the usual Japanese set of forms like Bassai, Rohai performed with the Korean flavor to then (more back stances than cat stances, and side kicks are present in the Pinan/Pyong An forms).  The book is charmingly illustrated with drawings rather than photos and this can actually make it easier to understand.  The book also has several Kuk Mu sets which is a bonus.  I think these forms were taught only in the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan lines.


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## exile (May 18, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> I like this book myself.  http://www.amazon.com/Tae-Kwon-Clas...2827138?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179516641&sr=8-2
> 
> It's a book of the classic Chung Do Kwan forms up to the dan levels.  It has the usual Japanese set of forms like Bassai, Rohai performed with the Korean flavor to then (more back stances than cat stances, and side kicks are present in the Pinan/Pyong An forms).  The book is charmingly illustrated with drawings rather than photos and this can actually make it easier to understand.  The book also has several Kuk Mu sets which is a bonus.  I think these forms were taught only in the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan lines.



Song Moo Kwan taught Rohai (still does, at my school!) and Bassai. It may have also taught Naihanchi... all in addition to the Pinans. Song Moo Kwan is a direct translation into Korean of Shoto Kan (`Pine tree martial training house') and Byung Jik Ro's affection and respect for the Japanese kata set he learned under Funakoshi is very evident.

Thanks very much for the pointer to that bookit looks great, and I've just ordered it from A'zon.


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## IcemanSK (May 19, 2007)

As a Chung Do Kwan student, we do Basai & Yum Bee (that book calls it "Yun Be"). I've got an email into GM Sell asking which other early hyungs he did in his early training. (Curiosity has gotten the best of me). I'll let you know what I find out.


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## Laurentkd (May 19, 2007)

exile said:


> Laurentake a look at _Tang Soo Do: the Ultimate Guide to the Korean Martial Art_ by Kang Uk Lee (1999, Unique Publications). It has all five of the Pyung Ahns, very well illustrated, with a sequence of photo displaying the moves followed by a chart showing correct foot positions for each of the movesan unusual pairing of graphic aids that makes the intended motions as transparent as possible.
> 
> There are a number of other Okinawan kata forms in there, though the Rohai we do is a bit more elaborate than what Lee's book gives.


 


stoneheart said:


> I like this book myself. http://www.amazon.com/Tae-Kwon-Clas...2827138?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179516641&sr=8-2
> 
> It's a book of the classic Chung Do Kwan forms up to the dan levels. It has the usual Japanese set of forms like Bassai, Rohai performed with the Korean flavor to then (more back stances than cat stances, and side kicks are present in the Pinan/Pyong An forms). The book is charmingly illustrated with drawings rather than photos and this can actually make it easier to understand. The book also has several Kuk Mu sets which is a bonus. I think these forms were taught only in the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan lines.


 
Thanks to you both! I'll have to check them out.


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## Laurentkd (May 19, 2007)

Were Pyung Ahns taught in all kwans originally or only some?


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## exile (May 19, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> Were Pyung Ahns taught in all kwans originally or only some?



I wish I knew,  Lauren. That kind of question is the sort of thing we don't have very good information about&#8212;critical information about dojang practice in the founding era of the modern Korean MAs, and we still aren't sure about who was doing what, and training how. 

That said, there is a superb thread from a couple of years ago on this. Check out 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-27597.html

and you will find out more than you want to know about the Pinan/Heian/Pyung Ahn forms, who was doing what when, and how the O/J/K versions are related&#8212;as well as a _lot_ more than you want to know about the degree of boorishness that some people can bring to what should be an amiable, mutually informative discussion. But read to the end and you'll also be enouraged, I believe, as I was, to see that even a persistently nasty tone can be marginalized and damped down if the rest of the posters on the thread implicitly decide amongst themselves that that they're going to force the conversation to adhere to some kind of basic civility. So there really is a _huge_ amount of information about both technical content and constructive discourse in this thread!


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## Callandor (May 20, 2007)

bigfootsquatch said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Official-Taek...3445702?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179198129&sr=8-1
> 
> Bad stances, the authors demo high punches and kicks when the text often calls for middle kicks, and even the wrong foot forward once, get richard chun for good taekwondo, i cant believe the wtf stamped its approval on this....seriously a middle punch is not above the nose =\ nor is a middle front kick above the head


I just got my copy last week after ordering it two months ago and sad to say, all the comments as quoted above are so so true. Talk about wrong timing. This thread is posted two months late.:waah:


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## Laurentkd (May 20, 2007)

exile said:


> I wish I knew, Lauren. That kind of question is the sort of thing we don't have very good information about&#8212;critical information about dojang practice in the founding era of the modern Korean MAs, and we still aren't sure about who was doing what, and training how.
> 
> That said, there is a superb thread from a couple of years ago on this. Check out
> 
> ...


 
Thanks! I'll check it out in the morning. I need to rep people more often so that I can rep you when I want too!


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## exile (May 20, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> Thanks! I'll check it out in the morning. I need to rep people more often so that I can rep you when I want too!



Lauren, it's really the thought that countsit's a cliché, I know, but things get to be clichés only when they're mostly true, eh? So thank you!

 I'm constantly amazed at what a tremendous wealth of information there is on MT... it's like an interactive encyclopædia with articles written by your friends. Those back threads stuffed away in the archives have some outstanding content in them.


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