# Perth police assault?



## sgtmac_46 (Apr 10, 2009)

I stumbled across this video of an incident in Perth, Australia.  Apparently the police do things a little differently down under.  

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a96_1239323298

That's an incident that got WAY out of hand......there should have been quite a few more uses of force to bring that incident under control....eek!


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 10, 2009)

A little more research finds the the officer that was attacked from behind, Matt Butcher, was paralyzed and suffered brain damage as a result of the attack.....http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5388881/assault-case-shows-police-need-support/


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## blindsage (Apr 10, 2009)

That situation is insane.  You are absolutely right, there should have definitely been more uses of force in that situation.  I hadn't heard about this incident, but I am completely dumbfounded by the jury decision.  Have you seen any details about the verdict and what rationales were used to acquit?


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## blindsage (Apr 10, 2009)

Here's a couple of other articles I found.
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=145&ContentID=57294

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,23162747-2761,00.html

So, you don't want your father to be tasered but neither one of you will stop particpating in the fighting and you decide that it's justified to head butt a cop in the back of the head when he takes the steps necessary to do his job?  And the jury let's you off ??!?!?

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/trio-accuse-cop-of-having-memory-blanks-20090217-8a3t.html

And this article leaves me really confused.  I want to know what the laws for LEOs are like in Australia.  It's sound like they were aloud to use their batons on a struggling perpetrator, they weren't allowed to draw and point their tasers at people they saw as a threat *after* an officer had been seriously injured by one of them.  Maybe these guys felt the police were assaulting them, but it sounds more like the constables are being blamed for using any force besides tackling and handcuffing.  What the hell are the use of force laws like there?


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 11, 2009)

blindsage said:


> Here's a couple of other articles I found.
> http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=145&ContentID=57294
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,23162747-2761,00.html
> ...



Yeah, I have no idea about their use of force laws or policy......but it's clear from the video that their officers were a bit confused and perplexed on the issue as well.  They certainly had enough officers there to handle the situation, from a shear numbers standpoint, IF they're rules of engagement are suitable.......obviously there was a breakdown somewhere, but where is beyond me.


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## seasoned (Apr 11, 2009)

Half of the responding officers had no duty belts on. Nothing but a uniform. Whats up with that.? One on one, they were getting their butts handed to them. I saw one baton, no OC, and generally a big free for all.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 11, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Half of the responding officers had no duty belts on. Nothing but a uniform. What&#8217;s up with that.? One on one, they were getting their butts handed to them. I saw one baton, no OC, and generally a big free for all.


 Pretty much my assessment.......there was no leadership, not sense of a goal, no attempt to control individuals.........I don't see how they added anything positive to the situation by even showing up!

I don't mean to be hard on the guys.....but i've been in many situations like that, dozens of bar fights and neighborhood brawls......you order folks to stop and end the fighting immediately upon showing up, and if they don't you make them stop by using whatever force is necessary, and THEN you go about figuring out who started what.

I once cleared out an entire brawling bar in 30 seconds with the help of a backup officer and a fire extinguisher sized can of Fox Labs 5.3 fogger......I honestly never thought 20 or 30 people could navigate those exits that fast!

But, then, I like Bar Brawl calls!


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 11, 2009)

I worked with the Perth Police Department in 1982 during Operation Freedom Pennant.  We were stationed at HMAS Stirling and the Marines of the 7th MAB got 96 hours of liberty in Perth.  We MP's were assigned to ride along with the Perth PD to prevent 'international incidents'.  They wore black gear like ours, but no nightstick, no mace, and no firearm.  They had a rack of 9mm pistols locked up at the precinct house.

We patrolled with them and took radio calls of drunken Marines causing problems.  They stood back and let us work.  Comparing notes, it was pretty clear that they were not used to that level of violence; our methodology was simple - ask 'em, tell 'em, and take 'em.  Theirs was ask, ask again, ask one more time, and then say something to indicate their ire.

The difference was, the Australian citizens they dealt with generally did what they were told by the Perth PD.  They stopped fighting when told to.

I guess they don't do that too much anymore.  That's really a shame - the Perth officers I met were universally nice people.  You can't blame the officers - it is a different culture there.  Looks like ours, but not at all the same, really.  At least, it was different in '82.

I don't know why some of the officers were not wearing black gear, that seems quite odd.


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## mook jong man (Apr 11, 2009)

I am not a policeman but I am Australian and from what I hear in the media and on talk back radio shows etc is that a lot of experienced policeman have left the force . They have left because they believe the pay is crappy for what they have to put up with and they can get payed better in other industries.

 Also successive goverments have cut their budgets down to the bone so they get told by their bosses things like not to drive around their patrol cars too much to save on fuel and other idiotic ideas like that . They also get sick of arresting the offenders and bringing them before the court and the lefty judges here let them back out with a smack on the wrist .

 Another thing is that they are under so much scrutiny here by various government departments , the crims seem to be able to do any thing they want to a cop but if the policeman puts one foot wrong he is gone , hence we always seem to get a softly , softly approach to law enforcement.

The end result of all this is that the older more experienced policeman have gotten sick of it and left the force and all that are left are young and inexperienced cops. If you go into a police station around here , if you can find one that hasn't been closed down by the state government that is . 

The first thing that you would notice is that everyone in there is very , very young . So what happens is when they get sent to a riot  or a brawl they don't know what the hell they are doing because there are  no wise old experienced heads there with them to give them some leadership.

You can't blame the police , its the stupid governments fault. The government should pay the police what they are worth and look after them properly if they get injured on the job .

 They should also make sure they are funded adequately and have everything they need to do the job properly . And give some of these judges a kick up the **** and make sure they hand down sentences that are in line with the expectations of the broader community and not their trendy latte sipping friends in their ivory towers.

We wish we had police like in America , many a time over here an incident will happen and you will here people say jeez could you imagine cops over in the states putting up with that sort of crap.


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## Thems Fighting Words (Apr 11, 2009)

I remember that story from a few weeks back. As an Australian I found it a bit unsettling that a group of police officers who outnumbered the people they were supposed to be arresting would end up with a member so seriously injured. A number of factors I can think of. Senior police are leaving. There is a lot of pressure to appear as "nice". Also the tasers were only being rolled out at the time and there was a lot of uncertainty in their use (bunch of civil libertarians didn't want police to shoot crims but they didn't like them to use tasers either).


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 11, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I am not a policeman but I am Australian and from what I hear in the media and on talk back radio shows etc is that a lot of experienced policeman have left the force . They have left because they believe the pay is crappy for what they have to put up with and they can get payed better in other industries.
> 
> Also successive goverments have cut their budgets down to the bone so they get told by their bosses things like not to drive around their patrol cars too much to save on fuel and other idiotic ideas like that . They also get sick of arresting the offenders and bringing them before the court and the lefty judges here let them back out with a smack on the wrist .
> 
> ...



I appreciate the first hand account.  Bureaucratic micromanagement and mismanagement is pretty much what I suspected.  Unfortunate.

You make an excellent point.  Excessive force stories and police brutality aren't liked very well by many circles in the public, and rightfully so.......but the extreme opposite end of the spectrum, perceived police incompetence and inability to deal effectively with violent criminal elements is far LESS liked by the law abiding public in general.......the average person doesn't want ruffians brawling in the streets while they're trying to go through the day to day job of providing for their families!


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 11, 2009)

Thems Fighting Words said:


> I remember that story from a few weeks back. As an Australian I found it a bit unsettling that a group of police officers who outnumbered the people they were supposed to be arresting would end up with a member so seriously injured. A number of factors I can think of. Senior police are leaving. There is a lot of pressure to appear as "nice". Also the tasers were only being rolled out at the time and there was a lot of uncertainty in their use (bunch of civil libertarians didn't want police to shoot crims but they didn't like them to use tasers either).



Yeah, losing senior experienced officers would be a huge concern.  The incident did look like an academy exercise run by rookies with no senior officers to provide leadership and direction.

In the US we're used to being vastly outnumbered by the crowd and still dealing with violent individuals......but we have good senior officers that pass on the lessons and experience and mindset to deal with that kind of violence......there really is no good substitute for it.  

And our courts generally back our good faith attempts to bring order even when something goes wrong, so long as the efforts were objectively reasonable and in good faith.......there's no substitute for that either.



It's not just the US, either, Canada generally has pretty effective and highly trained officers.....at least the ones i've trained with and met, and the incidents i've seen on video.


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## jks9199 (Apr 11, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> We wish we had police like in America , many a time over here an incident will happen and you will here people say jeez could you imagine cops over in the states putting up with that sort of crap.



If you want police like the US or England or Canada...

Demand them.  Demand that your politicians fund and support them.

And back them up...


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 11, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> If you want police like the US or England or Canada...
> 
> Demand them.  Demand that your politicians fund and support them.
> 
> And back them up...


 Yes, absolutely....we get what we ask for, even if we don't consciously know that is what we are asking for.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 11, 2009)

I noted that the melee seems to be aftermath of a dispute in a pub. I once called the police the night of the FA Cup years ago. Manchester had won. A bunch of Manchester boys I'd never seen before came into my bar and decided to lord it over the Glasgow and Belfast regulars. By the way, this is all taking place in a pub in North York, Toronto, in the early eighties.

I called the police, just before the crowd moves out to the street. Four cars roll up instantly. Toronto police in those days had no mace, tazers, or even vests. Guns were carried in a flapped holster opposite the gun hand on a Sam Browne Belt. But they all had PR 24s. Anyone who did not immediately comply with the officers' commands got a short quick jab to the solar plexus. It wasn't pretty, but nobody had to go the hospital, and everything got wrapped up real quick.

I was impressed by the quick, decisive action in what could have been a very bloody event.


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 11, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I noted that the melee seems to be aftermath of a dispute in a pub. I once called the police the night of the FA Cup years ago. Manchester had won. A bunch of Manchester boys I'd never seen before came into my bar and decided to lord it over the Glasgow and Belfast regulars. By the way, this is all taking place in a pub in North York, Toronto, in the early eighties.
> 
> I called the police, just before the crowd moves out to the street. Four cars roll up instantly. Toronto police in those days had no mace, tazers, or even vests. *Guns were carried in a flapped holster opposite the gun hand on a Sam Browne Belt*. But they all had PR 24s. Anyone who did not immediately comply with the officers' commands got a short quick jab to the solar plexus. It wasn't pretty, but nobody had to go the hospital, and everything got wrapped up real quick.
> 
> I was impressed by the quick, decisive action in what could have been a very bloody event.


 
Flap holsters are great for retention purposes when concealment isn't an issue, but when you say "opposite the gun hand" do you mean crossdraw carry? That's NOT so good for retention purposes( the grip is more accessible to them than you).


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 11, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> ...but when you say "opposite the gun hand" do you mean crossdraw carry?



That's exactly what I meant -- didn't know the correct term. (You can sort of tell I don't know much about handguns.) I was calling attention to an era when a majority of police officers in my town never drew their weapon in the line of duty. Different era entirely. Within years after, Toronto Police went to a open holster on whichever side they drew with, then from an S&W Police Special to a Glock. 

Now of course, procedures are different. One of my Sensei is a police officer, and there are certain circumstances in which he unholsters his weapon as a matter of SOP, even if a threat is not observable.

I made mention of that because it appeared to me that the Perth officers didn't have guns. What I was trying to get at was the effectiveness of a good stick in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Seems to me when you're dealing with angry drunks, a lot of things can go south. People not ostensibly involved in the situation will involve themselves. 

Actually I was talking to an officer who was visiting my middle school the other day. Nice man in his late fifties, getting ready to retire. He didn't care for the PR24 during the years that Toronto Police Services used it -- 80s and 90s. He said it was lousy for breaking car windows, and because of it's light weight often bounced out of officers' hands. They use an expandable baton now.


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 11, 2009)

Yeah, the reason I bring it up is because in mob situations like the one the Perth officers were shown as being in, retention is of greatest importance. Half those kids, even were they armed, were paying no attention to where any sidearms would have been and when you carry open as most cops do, if you don't pay attention to the equipment on your belt, someone else will.

I heard a story once at my range about a retired New Orleans cop one of the shooters knew. He used to talk about some of the tricks he used to survive( He was black and worked the New Orleans bar scene at a time when the bars were segregated but *right* on opposite sides of the riverbank. I'll let you do the math).

One of the stories went that whenever he and other cops had to go into a bar and break up a brawl, he'd leave his full size revolver on his duty belt empty in the event of a snatch in those close quarters.

"As soon as they'd find out that one was empty", he then pulled the snubbie from his pocket--"They'd find out this one wasn't".


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## mook jong man (Apr 11, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Yes, absolutely....we get what we ask for, even if we don't consciously know that is what we are asking for.


 
The problem is mate that we live in a country where voting is compulsory , so even the stupid and disinterested people get to vote. For example we have in New South Wales a state government that is absolutely incompetent , they can't do anything right .

 The hospitals are a mess , public transport is a mess , every where you look its a shambles . But they keep getting re-elected because every time it gets close to an election they will start making announcements that will appeal to the hip pocket nerve and the morons amongst us get taken in by it and vote them straight back in again.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 12, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I noted that the melee seems to be aftermath of a dispute in a pub. I once called the police the night of the FA Cup years ago. Manchester had won. A bunch of Manchester boys I'd never seen before came into my bar and decided to lord it over the Glasgow and Belfast regulars. By the way, this is all taking place in a pub in North York, Toronto, in the early eighties.
> 
> I called the police, just before the crowd moves out to the street. Four cars roll up instantly. Toronto police in those days had no mace, tazers, or even vests. Guns were carried in a flapped holster opposite the gun hand on a Sam Browne Belt. But they all had PR 24s. Anyone who did not immediately comply with the officers' commands got a short quick jab to the solar plexus. It wasn't pretty, but nobody had to go the hospital, and everything got wrapped up real quick.
> 
> I was impressed by the quick, decisive action in what could have been a very bloody event.


 Yes, exactly!  Most folks don't realize that swift, decisive action early on, even if it appears like low-level brutality to the lay-person, actually PREVENTS further violence.

As I pointed out earlier, most Canadian officers i've met have been first rate cops!


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 12, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> The problem is mate that we live in a country where voting is compulsory , so even the stupid and disinterested people get to vote. For example we have in New South Wales a state government that is absolutely incompetent , they can't do anything right .
> 
> The hospitals are a mess , public transport is a mess , every where you look its a shambles . But they keep getting re-elected because every time it gets close to an election they will start making announcements that will appeal to the hip pocket nerve and the morons amongst us get taken in by it and vote them straight back in again.


 That's unfortunate.......but it reinforces something i've long suspected......MORE participation in the Democratic process does not equal a BETTER democratic process.......more EDUCATED participation, but not just quantity for the sake of quantity.


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## bradtash (Apr 26, 2009)

hey guys,
this was on 60 minutes last night.
http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=805747

the reason why there were no police belts was that the fight happened across the road from the police station and the police officers ran outside to break it up.

i think it is pathetic how these days there is such a lack of respect for police officers. people are listening less and less these days to police officers and assaults on police are becoming more common. 

this was an example where the man responsible should of been persecuted to show an example to others that attack police officers. 

you have to love how the offenders original story claimed that he accidentally fell on the police officer WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP then once he knew there was a video he changed his story.....

anyway, i believe more needs to be done to protect our cops.


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## jks9199 (Apr 26, 2009)

bradtash said:


> hey guys,
> this was on 60 minutes last night.
> http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=805747
> 
> ...


It's "prosecuted" not "persecuted."  They sound similar, but the meaning is quite different.  I usually ignore typos... but this particular one screamed for help!


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## seasoned (Apr 27, 2009)

bradtash said:


> hey guys,
> this was on 60 minutes last night.
> http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=805747
> 
> ...


I think in the case of no police belts, they were better off, because it would have been a free for all with weapons. Totally out of hand situation.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 2, 2009)

bradtash said:


> hey guys,
> this was on 60 minutes last night.
> http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=805747
> 
> ...



I agree completely......probably the most effective action would be modifying the standard accepted ROE's, institute new training standards and use of force standards, and allow the cops to protect themselves.

This situation mainly seemed to be one of officers who were either unsure of their authority, not given the proper authority to deal with the situation, and/or not given the proper training........and the result was that, what should have been a simple brawl that could have been brought under control in a few seconds with the proper application of appropriate force, became a huge ordeal.


The appropriate level of force for that incident from the very beginning was baton strikes, Tasers and/or OC spray, applied aggressively until all combatants were subdued.


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