# Home Study Courses



## survivalist

Hello, 


I'm curious if there are any home study courses that are not completely ridiculous. Ideally something with graded levels. 


Before you burst into laughter... 




I'm in my 40s and am mainly interested in doing this for fun.
I have a busy life and a number of physical activities I can't swap out for martial arts (i.e., we do stuff as a family and no one else has any MA interest). My free time tends to be at times when no MA studio is open - e.g., 5am.
I have studied several martial arts but never particularly deeply because I've moved a bit. Six months each in two different styles of kung fu, purple belt in Kenpo.
It's not vital to me how "effective" what I learn is. In fact, I wouldn't mind something that included a kata portion.
I would like something with a belt system, as having goals to strive for keeps me motivated.


After a bit of googling, I've seen: 


- Stephen K Hayes 
- Richard van Donk 
- Shintai Ryu 
- Shorin Ryu ("Kobukan Karate") 
- American Kenpo Legacy ("Arnis") - not sure if they are still in business 


I'm curious if 


(a) all home study courses are a joke 


(b) there is something good I've missed 


(c) anyone has opinions on the above


----------



## MJS

survivalist said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I'm curious if there are any home study courses that are not completely ridiculous. Ideally something with graded levels.
> 
> 
> Before you burst into laughter...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in my 40s and am mainly interested in doing this for fun.
> I have a busy life and a number of physical activities I can't swap out for martial arts (i.e., we do stuff as a family and no one else has any MA interest). My free time tends to be at times when no MA studio is open - e.g., 5am.
> I have studied several martial arts but never particularly deeply because I've moved a bit. Six months each in two different styles of kung fu, purple belt in Kenpo.
> It's not vital to me how "effective" what I learn is. In fact, I wouldn't mind something that included a kata portion.
> I would like something with a belt system, as having goals to strive for keeps me motivated.
> 
> 
> After a bit of googling, I've seen:
> 
> 
> - Stephen K Hayes
> - Richard van Donk
> - Shintai Ryu
> - Shorin Ryu ("Kobukan Karate")
> - American Kenpo Legacy ("Arnis") - not sure if they are still in business
> 
> 
> I'm curious if
> 
> 
> (a) all home study courses are a joke
> 
> 
> (b) there is something good I've missed
> 
> 
> (c) anyone has opinions on the above



Welcome to the forum! 

To answer your questions:  Please keep in mind, that the question you ask, has been asked many, many times before.  Each time I've given an answer, its been along the same lines....no, IMHO, you can't learn much from a dvd/home study course.  People will try to tell you differently.  However, fact remains, unless you have a live teacher, someone who can show you things, make corrections, etc, then your learning will be limited only to whats being shown on the dvd, and how well you can grasp it.

I do feel that dvds are a good reference tool.  I have some.  However, I also have teachers that I can go to.  I'm not learning from the dvd.  I've seen BJJ inst. tapes, saw things that caught my eye, and have worked on them with the guys that I've done grappling with.  IMO, you need a live body to work with, and a live teacher to teach. 

Regarding what you googled....I've heard things only about the SKH and RVD dvds, and none of it has been good.  I personally have never seen them, so I'm only going on what I've read by others.  

You mention that you have a purple in Kenpo.  What style of Kenpo?  If its Parker Kenpo, then perhaps you may want to look into Larry Tatums dvd sets that he has.  Another option that you may want to consider, if you havent already, is private lessons.  Perhaps you could find a school you're interested in, talk to the inst., explain your situation, and see if you could do private lessons, a few times a month.  It'll probably cost more in the long run, but at least you're learning from someone.

I hope that was of some help. 

Mike


----------



## Instructor

Welcome to the forum survivalist.

Any distance learning system is going to be considerably more challenging and less effective than actual live training.  Not impossible though.  The best systems do not rely entirely on videos but instead offer interaction and in person training occasionally.

If you go this route expect to work harder for everything.

Jon


----------



## Flying Crane

Don't do it.  It's a waste of your time and money, and what you learn will be questionable at best, and could be downright dangerous to yourself.  Don't do it.


----------



## Cirdan

"a"

There is no replacing a live instructor. I`d take half an hour with a good teacher every six months over all the home study material in the world.


----------



## Flying Crane

Cirdan said:


> "a"
> 
> There is no replacing a live instructor. I`d take half an hour with a good teacher every six months over all the home study material in the world.



I'll go one further on this:  I'd just run, swim, ride my bike, do some strength training, follow a fitness program, instead of taking any home study/video course.  If my only option was home-study/video, without time training directly with an instructor, then I would simply do something else altogether.


----------



## Instructor

I created such a system out of necessity for my military students but even I admit Flying crane and others here are not wrong.

We have had measurable success and I am happy to say that to-date, no injuries. But my system has considerable time with real live people involved.  It is definitely not easier or better than an instructor.

Some instructors might be willing to meet with you at 5:30, I would.


----------



## Omar B

This "home study" topic should be aggregated with all the threads that ask the same question and stickied somewhere all the newbs can see it.

No home study does not work.  But with a name like Survivalist and wanting a home study course I think you're plenty busy in your unibomber style shack when not hunting chipmunk meat ... which eventually drives you crazy.


----------



## survivalist

Omar B said:


> But with a name like Survivalist and wanting a home study course I think you're plenty busy in your unibomber style shack when not hunting chipmunk meat ... which eventually drives you crazy.



Dude, you have to pick _some_ name for a forum.  I wouldn't make too many assumptions.


----------



## Omar B

survivalist said:


> Dude, you have to pick _some_ name for a forum.  I wouldn't make too many assumptions.



Badger meat?


----------



## survivalist

Omar B said:


> Badger meat?



I can only imagine the unfair assumptions people leap to with your name (Omar).


----------



## Omar B

But I am spot on right?  Guy who cannot use the forum search function does live in a Survivalist cabin eating Chipmunk.  LOL


----------



## survivalist

Omar B said:


> But I am spot on right?  Guy who cannot use the forum search function does live in a Survivalist cabin eating Chipmunk.  LOL



I'm sorry you're either very angry at life or very bored with it, but I really can't help you with that.


----------



## stone_dragone

I'm sure that we can do without the uninformed person attacks, especially from senior members. 

That being said, this topic has been discussed in depth in many other locations. 

Another suggestion, if your looking for a martial art outlet and exercise program, is to purchase an XBox kinect (sp?) and the UFC trainer game. You admit to not being interested in effectiveness and are looking for something you can do at home. Seems a custom fit. 

Again, if you aren't looking for rank or effectiveness, then any of the video systems listed will do it for you... The question I would ask is why would you want to study martial arts and NOT be effective?


----------



## Omar B

Dumb topic gets dumb answer.  Use the search function.  Your first thread isn't even an introduction but a rerun.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Omar B said:


> Dumb topic gets dumb answer.  Use the search function.  Your first thread isn't even an introduction but a rerun.



And personal attacks on members are a violation of the forum's rules.


----------



## Instructor

Survivalist in spite of conventional wisdom I do believe it is possible to learn this way, it's just not the best way.  I have contributed my own time, effort, and money to prove that it can be done.  But I am certainly in the minority.  I also am very honest that what I am trying is experimental.  

I can tell you that you are not alone.  I believe a lot of people out there want to learn but just don't have an ideal situation in which to do so.

I don't think I am a pariah here because of my experiment, not yet anyway.


----------



## Gentle Fist

No one who takes the art seriously would solely base all their learning from a video collection...

Find a school and enjoy the ride...


----------



## Instructor

A good distance learning program has to be much more than video's.


----------



## bluewaveschool

Grandmaster Pellegrini has his learn at home Combat Hapkido series.  Doing his program does allow you to attend the Combat Hapkido seminars around the country, so you could get a small bit of time with real instructors if you could make any of them.  However, I don't know the first thing about his stuff, if it's good or not.


----------



## Gentle Fist

I can't speak for other arts.  But I can't see how someone could learn Judo or BJJ without being on a mat with an experienced instructor...   There are too many small moves specific to the individual as well as gaining that "feel" of doing the move correctly and it being accepted by qualified person...


----------



## James Kovacich

survivalist said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I'm curious if there are any home study courses that are not completely ridiculous. Ideally something with graded levels.
> 
> 
> Before you burst into laughter...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in my 40s and am mainly interested in doing this for fun.
> I have a busy life and a number of physical activities I can't swap out for martial arts (i.e., we do stuff as a family and no one else has any MA interest). My free time tends to be at times when no MA studio is open - e.g., 5am.
> I have studied several martial arts but never particularly deeply because I've moved a bit. Six months each in two different styles of kung fu, purple belt in Kenpo.
> It's not vital to me how "effective" what I learn is. In fact, I wouldn't mind something that included a kata portion.
> I would like something with a belt system, as having goals to strive for keeps me motivated.
> 
> 
> After a bit of googling, I've seen:
> 
> 
> - Stephen K Hayes
> - Richard van Donk
> - Shintai Ryu
> - Shorin Ryu ("Kobukan Karate")
> - American Kenpo Legacy ("Arnis") - not sure if they are still in business
> 
> 
> I'm curious if
> 
> 
> (a) all home study courses are a joke
> 
> 
> (b) there is something good I've missed
> 
> 
> (c) anyone has opinions on the above



Its true you need an instructor. I've tried teaching this way and didn't get the results I expected.

 But you might look into the following link. I guarantee you wont get a black belt unless you deserve it.
https://www.jeffspeakman.com/ good luck 

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tames D

Omar - Give it a rest. Stop with the ****ing attacks. What's your problem dude?


----------



## shesulsa

Survivor:

I would expect for someone who has spent at least five to ten solid years studying, training and making martial arts a priority to be able to get something out of a worthwhile DVD home-study program. Certainly not everything nor even "enough" but *something.*

The reality: it is done. You are going to do what you want to do, we can't stop you ... but I think there IS an effective compromise and it has already been sort of suggested:  seek out private lessons and go once or twice a month, bring a video camera and record your lessons. Use your recordings to help you practice at home. My ex did this and it worked out pretty well for him (and us as the net time physically from the home was drastically reduced. 

Now ... this is a method that is most likely good for higher ranking students and black belts as training time become so fleeting once you start teaching. But it could work for a dedicated student. I have to toss my money in this hat way before the home study routine.  Good luck and please let us know how you choose to proceed.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## WC_lun

I understand that some people just don't have access to instructors, for one reason or another.  However, home training from DVDs, books, etc is not valid training.  You cannot learn martial arts in this manner.  You need the interaction and drilling.  While you say you do not care if it is effective training or not, do you care if the training could be detrimental?  Many people I have seen that take the solo training route have trained body mechanics and thought processes that are indeed detrimental. If you are serious enough about martial arts to take them up, be serious enough about them to do them right.


----------



## Omar B

Tames D said:


> Omar - Give it a rest. Stop with the ****ing attacks. What's your problem dude?



I gave him an answer.  What's up with you?


----------



## shesulsa

Omar B said:


> I gave him an answer.  What's up with you?



You also smacked him down and insulted him. 1. That's rude and against the rules here. 2. Expecting everyone tho use the crappy vBulletin search feature the way you would is expecting everyone to be like you. And we'd likely have no new conversations here except based on current events, news and politics if topics were never re-explored. That's not how people learn and grow. 

Please try to have more patience with the noobs and I hope whatever is bothering you resolves quickly. 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Marcy Shoberg

While it may very well be true that one cannot learn a martial art without meeting face to face with an instructor, possibly survivalist might be interested in a self-defense system instead. 
In fact I make a self-defense home study course, it doesn't teach much physical technique, though.  If anyone wants to see it, it's at www.theselfdefenselady.com 
I learned Krav Maga (which is a self-defense system, not a martial art) from books so I think maybe survivalist could learn it from books or videos, too.  I don't think a person without prior martial arts experience could learn the self-defense system of Krav Maga very well from books.  But, since he has some experience, I think it's worth a try.  Krav Maga Worldwide is the type I studied.  I preferred the books by Darren Levine to the videos.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Gentle Fist said:


> I can't speak for other arts. But I can't see how someone could learn Judo or BJJ without being on a mat with an experienced instructor... There are too many small moves specific to the individual as well as gaining that "feel" of doing the move correctly and it being accepted by qualified person...



I think the amount you can get out of instructional videos is proportional to the amount of related real experience you already have and the quality of your available training partners.

When I first encountered BJJ, it was via instructional videos. At that time I had a few years training in an unrelated art and a couple of training partners who had experience in other arts. I was able to learn a number of techniques well enough to apply them effectively in sparring with my training partners.

Then I started training in a dojo that taught a Danzan Ryu jujutsu offshoot, including some of the same curriculum I had been learning by video. The folks there were better than I was, but I did feel like my video study had given me a head start. During my time training there, I continued to practice material from BJJ videos, but now I had better training partners and more hands-on instruction so I got more out of the videos. I feel like the supplemental training I got made me more effective when rolling with folks at the dojo.

Finally I started training BJJ with an actual qualified BJJ instructor. My previous experience gave me a bit of a head start, but I was still a beginner in the art. I still had quite a ways to go before my first ranking. Now that I have high-quality hands on instruction and lots of good training partners, I feel like I can get a lot out of a good BJJ instructional video. The only reason that I don't spend more time watching them is that I already have so much material to work on from my regular classes that I don't need that much supplemental information. The limiting factor for me now is how much time I have to work with training partners on the mat to drill what I've already been exposed to.

Another data point: I've read that Pat Miletich started out studying BJJ via video lessons because there was no local instruction in the art at the time. Obviously that worked out pretty well for him. The thing to remember is that he already had over a decade of grappling experience via wrestling and had some tough training partners to work out with. Also, he sought out real instruction as it became available.

In the case of someone who has no prior experience and lacks good training partners, instructional videos are probably useless or worse than useless.


----------



## oaktree

> I'm curious if there are any home study courses that are not completely ridiculous. Ideally something with graded levels.



Home study courses are alot like Online universities you get what you put into it but for the most part you are the teacher, and having a teacher who doesn't know the material very well isn't a very good teacher.



> I'm in my 40s and am mainly interested in doing this for fun


 Then why the concern with a grading level? Why not just get a heavy bag and punch that?



> I have a busy life and a number of physical activities I can't swap out for martial arts (i.e., we do stuff as a family and no one else has any MA interest). My free time tends to be at times when no MA studio is open - e.g., 5am.


 Everyone has a busy life I work full time and I am on call on the weekend and I am a full time student and I still have time to train. Meeting a teacher once a week for an hour will get you further than any home study course.


> It's not vital to me how "effective" what I learn is. In fact, I wouldn't mind something that included a kata portion.
> I would like something with a belt system, as having goals to strive for keeps me motivated.


It sounds like you need something or someone to motivate you. A home study course where *YOU* are motivating *Yourself *seems difficult for someone like you based on what you typed.


> all home study courses are a joke


 I don't know all of the home study courses for the most part I think the person who created them do try to give as close to a class as they can. 
Here is my opinion,
What ever art you choose for a home study course, contact the closest teacher for that art and explain the situation. 

See if he will be your long distance corrspondence to go to with questions, maybe he can come down once every month or so to help you with learning. Find a partner to do it with or a study group at least then you can both work on the techniques maybe there is something you missed that he caught.
If you are going to use video only then you will need to spend alot of time watching the videos. Now here is the reality of training using only tapes.
*No matter how many times you watch the tapes or practice what is on the tapes your movement will never be like the person that is on the tape unless you actually train with a real teacher. I have have been studying a particular art with my teacher for over 5 years, I have his DVD'S on that particular art yet I still get corrections and I already know the form! Because just watching a teacher perform something you miss the small details needed to really excute it correctly. *
Anyway good luck with your adventure.


----------



## jasonbrinn

I have thoroughly reviewed Gracie University and it is REALLY great - I highly recommend it.  Also, my system has correspondence courses as well which are completely free so hit us up if you are interested ( www.shamarsystem.com ).

Ultimately, it depends on your goals, expectations and what you put into it as to what you will get and the quality.  Some things you can only get in person and some levels can only be reached with one-to-one instruction.  However, great passion and determination can make their own opportunities as well. 

I wish you the best.


----------



## Instructor

> I don't know all of the home study courses for the most part I think the person who created them do try to give as close to a class as they can.
> Here is my opinion, What ever art you choose for a home study course, contact the closest teacher for that art and explain the situation.



This is very good advice.  Of course their are some scams out there to be avoided.  But also many well known, legitimate schools have developed a distance learning system. Simply asking the teacher about the quality of his distance students versus local students should be quite revealing. Even the best distance system must rely on occasional in-person instruction, I don't know any legitimate system that doesn't.

I can't speak for other schools and systems but for my own we hold the students performance expectations to the same standard as the local students.  It might take them twice as long to get to the level we expect but they know that promotion requires it.  Thus far, my distance students have been able to make the grade.


----------



## Christian Soldier

I haven't read the rest of the thread so I'm no sure if this has been said before but here's what I've found over the years.

'Warrior's Edge' was some very comprehensive knife instruction and, if you drill it often with a partner, can be very helpfull. Merely watching a tape is about as good for you as sitting on the couch with a bag of potato chips watching P90X, you have to actually do what the video is saying to benefit from it.


Now I used to be pretty skeptical about these martial art courses until our school recently had Black Belt come and join that had recived his belts from Kevin Lampkins Kenpo online/dvd course. At first, my whole family was a bit skeptical but I'l be darned if he was just as good, if not better than, the black belts I have seen that had with many years in the studio. I think one of the big factors with KL's kenpo is you actually have to send him a video of yourself doing the ciriculem and he will critique and tell you if you are doing something wrong. Kenpo is a very dynamic art too, which make it even more impressive.

Hands down the biggest factor is the student. If a student actively pursues learning the system and commits, he can conciveably do quite well, as long as he has a GOOD TEACHER. It's just not as easy and not as consistent as learning from a school. If you have the oppertunity to take from a good school, by all means DO IT. But, I have personally seen great success from a 'Home Study Course', so it _can_ work.


----------



## shihansmurf

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the amount you can get out of instructional videos is proportional to the amount of related real experience you already have and the quality of your available training partners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is the crux of the issue. If you have a good, working knowledge of a closely related system then you can certainly learn a great deal. I am currently working my way through the IKCA material at the moment. I havve an extensive background in shotokan and American Kenpo as well as boxing and a few other striking systems. I'm enjoying what I am learning from Mr. LeRoux through this medium. There a few subtle difference in how they do things versus how I learned them but the interaction from the feedback tapes and phone calls are outstanding.
> 
> I wouldn't have considered this option unless I already had a solid base of ability. I certainly wouldn't thing of trying to learn a grappling art in this as my experience in that area consists of 2 years of high school wrestling and that was 20 years ago.
> 
> YMMV and all that but if you have a good program, prior experience, and partners then I see nothing wrong with it.
> 
> survivalist, take a look into the IKCA. Their website is www.karateconnection.com. Good guys, good kenpo, friendly people. It may not be exactly what you are looking for but I am really impressedd by the organization .
> 
> Mark
> 
> P.S. I gotta go with Omar on this. A sticky of this topic would be awesome.
Click to expand...


----------



## Flying Crane

[





> *If you have a good, working knowledge of a closely related system then you can certainly learn a great deal.* I am currently working my way through the IKCA material at the moment. *I havve an extensive background in shotokan and American Kenpo as well as boxing and a few other striking systems*. I'm enjoying what I am learning from Mr. LeRoux through this medium. There a few subtle difference in how they do things versus how I learned them but the interaction from the feedback tapes and phone calls are outstanding.
> 
> *I wouldn't have considered this option unless I already had a solid base of ability.* I certainly wouldn't thing of trying to learn a grappling art in this as my experience in that area consists of 2 years of high school wrestling and that was 20 years ago.
> 
> YMMV and all that but if you have a good program, *prior experience*, and partners then I see nothing wrong with it.



Hi Mark,

your post raises some questions for me, I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.

Since you have the background, and that background is probabaly pivotal to having some degree of success with a distance learning program, it makes me ask: do you get anything out of the program that you haven't already gotten from your prior training? And why go thru it? I suppose simple curiosity and interest can be enough, but that aside it seems to me that someone like yourself, if you already have a solid background particularly in something closely related, is exactly the person who DOES NOT need a distance program like this.

any thoughts?

thx.


----------



## shihansmurf

Flying Crane said:


> [
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> your post raises some questions for me, I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
> 
> Since you have the background, and that background is probabaly pivotal to having some degree of success with a distance learning program, it makes me ask: do you get anything out of the program that you haven't already gotten from your prior training? And why go thru it? I suppose simple curiosity and interest can be enough, but that aside it seems to me that someone like yourself, if you already have a solid background particularly in something closely related, is exactly the person who DOES NOT need a distance program like this.
> 
> any thoughts?
> 
> thx.



Hi Michael,

Initially I took an interest in IKCA Kenpo because I found the first video at a garage sale. I figured for $3 I'd give it a go.

 I found the material contained on it to be an expression of American Kenpo more along the lines with how I approach Mr. Parker's art. I didn't start out in Kenpo as shotokan was and remains my primary art. Due to moving around as a member of the military I took the opportunity to train in kenpo in Colorado Springs and enjoyed the approach. I simply find that the IKCA's philisopy of emphasizing basics and utilizing a smaller number of techniques that can be grafted as the situation fits to resonate with me a lot better than the full on 154 techs, 13(?) or so forms, and bunches of sets from EPAK. Not that I am crtiticizing EPAK. It is a great system. IKCA is working better for me and my purposes in training.

I use the techs as an adjunct to the shotokan I teach mainly as a great way to give my students examples of the kenpo concepts and principles in action. 

A good chunk of it is also simple curiosity and interest. I like to look into other systems and how they do things. I think that exploring other methods for no other reason than I want to see how they handle different scenarios and look at their approach to things in interesting. I also like to see how different themes are entertwined through different systems. I have a student that studied kajukenbo. I found that their Punch Defense 1 is similar to the opening move in broken wing in IKCA, I just find it interesting.

I also have had uniformly positive experiences dealing with the IKCA, both its founders and members. This may not seem like a big deal but I have had some nasty organization politics experiences in the past that have left me a bit jaded. I enjoy the people I have met and  gotten mat time with as well as the online discussions iwth other IKCA folks. 

As to your last comment. You are 100% right. I don't NEED to do a distance learning program. I am a bit of an outlier though as I will be in the Art for 29 years this December. I am simply in a place where I have a good enough foundation that I can explore in this manner and know what I am looking at in an intelligent(within the limits I have, lol) and informed manner. I know bad stance work, poor mechanics, and unsound material when I see it and I can steer clear. At this point delving into things trough this medium is more like diging into another, closely related area of my art than jumping feet first into a new Art. 

This is the trap of the distance learning programs, though.  I am not convinced that a person can go from no skill/knowledge to real competance in this manner. I think that they are great for guys like me that want to expolre, get feedback and don't get wrapped up in gaining rank. I'm think that anyone that looks at a program like this as a way to put on more stripes or as a way to train without really putting in the effort in a brick and mortar school will get out of their training what they put in to it. 

Mark


----------



## celtic_crippler

Christ, why not just answer the guy's question? He said he's just looking to do it for fun right now... 

You say you've got a purple belt in kenpo? Since you've already got a base there I'd reccomend either

1) IKCA: The production is dated, but the material is put together well and you can test for rank. The techniques are basic and combine to create what they call their "master form". They have routine seminars all over the country so you would likely get the opportunity for some hands-on instruction if you wanted it. http://www.karateconnection.com/

2) I believe somebody already mentione Jeff Speakman's 5.0 series. https://www.jeffspeakman.com/ He appears at various seminars and has an annual seminar specific to his organization once a year in Vegas. The production is top knotch but the techniques are more advanced and you may have difficulty learning them. He does give examples of traditional Parker forms, but with no instruction; just deomonstration. 

The IKCA is more "basic" while the 5.0 series is geared more toward advanced kenpoist who already have classical training.

As stated, vehemently by some, there is no replacement for hands-on instruction in a "brick and mortar" school. But since you are familiar with kenpo and have a mild interest, I would suggest one of these programs. 

Perhaps later you will find you enjoy it enough to take that the step to seek out a local instructor and advance further in your training. Until then, I hope you enjoy yourself. 

Peace! 



survivalist said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I'm curious if there are any home study courses that are not completely ridiculous. Ideally something with graded levels.
> 
> 
> Before you burst into laughter...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in my 40s and am mainly interested in doing this for fun.
> I have a busy life and a number of physical activities I can't swap out for martial arts (i.e., we do stuff as a family and no one else has any MA interest). My free time tends to be at times when no MA studio is open - e.g., 5am.
> I have studied several martial arts but never particularly deeply because I've moved a bit. Six months each in two different styles of kung fu, purple belt in Kenpo.
> It's not vital to me how "effective" what I learn is. In fact, I wouldn't mind something that included a kata portion.
> I would like something with a belt system, as having goals to strive for keeps me motivated.
> 
> 
> After a bit of googling, I've seen:
> 
> 
> - Stephen K Hayes
> - Richard van Donk
> - Shintai Ryu
> - Shorin Ryu ("Kobukan Karate")
> - American Kenpo Legacy ("Arnis") - not sure if they are still in business
> 
> 
> I'm curious if
> 
> 
> (a) all home study courses are a joke
> 
> 
> (b) there is something good I've missed
> 
> 
> (c) anyone has opinions on the above


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tae Bo,  Cardio Kick Boxing or Budokan


----------



## stone_dragone

shihansmurf said:


> Tony Dismukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the amount you can get out of instructional videos is proportional to the amount of related real experience you already have and the quality of your available training partners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is the crux of the issue. If you have a good, working knowledge of a closely related system then you can certainly learn a great deal. I am currently working my way through the IKCA material at the moment. I havve an extensive background in shotokan and American Kenpo as well as boxing ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I share this kind of experience and study the IKCA curriculum. For someone with Mark's level of experience, I don't think that it's really learning a new art from video as much as learning a new curriculum.
> 
> Many folks have been able to do well with the IKCA material. Perhaps that's why... It's learning a curriculum instead of an art through distance? Thoughts?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## shihansmurf

stone_dragone said:


> shihansmurf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tony Dismukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the amount you can get out of instructional videos is proportional to the amount of related real experience you already have and the quality of your available training partners.
> 
> 
> 
> I share this kind of experience and study the IKCA curriculum. For someone with Mark's level of experience, I don't think that it's really learning a new art from video as much as learning a new curriculum.
> 
> Many folks have been able to do well with the IKCA material. Perhaps that's why... It's learning a curriculum instead of an art through distance? Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hadn't thought of it in those terms. I think you have a really good point in that it is learning a new curriculum instead of an entirely new art. There are a few pitfalls with that as well, similarities of techniques, slight differences in basics, how to kiai, and such. There are times I slip into old habbits when working the IKCA material.
> 
> Mark
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## monk64

My opinion:



It depends a lot on what you're looking for and what your goals are.
It depends on the student.
It depends on the quality/sincerity of the teacher.
There are a lot of scams, but also good  well-regarded programs.

Fortuitously, I just got my martial arts home study directory site finished.  At the moment there are 20 programs reviewed, as well as some advice and commentary: BlackBeltDL.com

Not selling anything - just mentioning it here as a resource.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Andrew,

I visited your site, and to be bluntly honest, I see little value in what you've put together there. You have a short list of a few (20) programs, with the idea that you are reviewing each of them... however your "reviews" are little more than some simple maths to see how much a "black belt" will cost, and some (often rather ill-informed) views on the arts themselves being presented. In pretty much all instances you have not actually gone through the courses themselves, but looked for "previews", and based your reviews on that. 

All in all, there isn't anything that would make me think you're in a position to make any serious reviews, or really have the requisite experience to put your name to anything to do with the majority of arts that you're passing judgement on. In fact, the best that could be said is that you show that there are reasons to be leery of pretty much all such courses out there... as most who are looking at them don't have any real knowledge themselves.

Your site, though, does not feature "impartial" reviews (I wouldn't actually say there are any reviews there at all), advice, or commentary. What were you thinking you would achieve with this site?


----------



## Chris Parker

Care to refute anything, Andrew? As none of it is a personal attack, that is....


----------



## Gentle Fist

monk64 said:


> Fortuitously, I just got my martial arts home study directory site finished.  At the moment there are 20 programs reviewed, as well as some advice and commentary: BlackBeltDL.com
> 
> Not selling anything - just mentioning it here as a resource.



Cool idea.  There are quite a few Kenpo ones out there that you don't have listed yet.  It would be interesting to see what other styles you find out there.  To my knowledge Judo doesn't have one.


----------



## monk64

Chris Parker said:


> I visited your site, and to be bluntly honest, I see little value in what you've put together there. You have a short list of a few (20) programs, with the idea that you are reviewing each of them... however your "reviews" are little more than some simple maths to see how much a "black belt" will cost, and some (often rather ill-informed) views on the arts themselves being presented. In pretty much all instances you have not actually gone through the courses themselves, but looked for "previews", and based your reviews on that.



Hi Chris,

That is not totally true.  In cases where I've seen the material, I have longer commentary.  Some example of detailed reviews:

http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-kung-fu-san-soo

http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-ultimate-karate

http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-ninjutsu-home-study

It's impossible for me to purchase and review all these courses...nor am I eccentric enough to want to   However, I'm hoping that others who have participated in these programs will add their comments and reviews.

I've also tried to add information where I know the people involved.  For example, I spoke with Jon Ferguson from Hapkido Online, Larry Tatum with his home study program, etc. and consolidated the information they gave me into my comments.

It's a short list, but growing.  Since I opened the site up, people have sent me six more programs (not all of which I've had time to list yet).  I'm honestly surprised how many there are.



Chris Parker said:


> some (often rather ill-informed) views on the arts themselves



I suspect from your sig that you're a ninjutsu practitioner, and may not have liked my comments on the history of that style.  That's fine - we can agree to disagree, but I think my comments on the Van Donk and Stephen Hayes courses jibe with a lot of commentary I've read elsewhere.



Chris Parker said:


> All in all, there isn't anything that would make me think you're in a position to make any serious reviews, or really have the requisite experience to put your name to anything to do with the majority of arts that you're passing judgement on.




I didn't pass judgement on any art, actually.  Even my comment on ninjutsu was simply to question the hagiography that it was handed down from ninjas of long ago, Haatsumi is the 34th heir, etc. You're absolutely right that I'm not in a position to state whether it's better to study Hapkido versus Kung Fu San Soo versus Shotokan - but then, I don't do that.  I simply examine the programs.



Chris Parker said:


> Your site, though, does not feature "impartial" reviews (I wouldn't actually say there are any reviews there at all), advice, or commentary. What were you thinking you would achieve with this site?



I included some examples of more detailed reviews, so I disagree about that.  Certainly there are some entries which are just a brief summary because that's all I know.  There are a few where the warning/scam flags are very big and it didn't seem worthwhile to go further.

By impartial, I mean that I don't have any financial interest in any of these programs.  Indeed, I certainly didn't include any affiliate links or anything like that.

What I hope to achieve is 

a directory of such programs.  I honestly was very surprised how many there were and in such diverse styles.
review of such programs.  As I mentioned, I obviously can't review them all but hopefully people can contribute.  I've left the site settings so people can contribute anonymously and I don't plan to censor any non-spam comments.
advice for people considering such programs.

I guess I'd summarize as this: imagine someone takes an interest in a program from an ad or something they see.  They google and come across my site, and then read general advice on martial arts home study, my checklist of things to ask schools, compare that program to many others, perhaps look at my forum links (which I need to extend) and come to one of these forums and ask questions, etc.  At the end of that, they'll be much more informed about what they're getting into.  That's really my only goal.



Chris Parker said:


> Care to refute anything, Andrew? As none of it is a personal attack, that is....



No problem, Chris.  I've spend enough time on the mat that my skin is thick


----------



## Tez3

Gentle Fist said:


> I can't speak for other arts. But I can't see how someone could learn Judo or BJJ without being on a mat with an experienced instructor... There are too many small moves specific to the individual as well as gaining that "feel" of doing the move correctly and it being accepted by qualified person...



I'd have to wonder how you can learn to throw someone when you are learning on your own from a video, the same with grappling, how do you grapple on your own?  Of course on a serious point learning to throw, grapple etc with someone else who is also a beginner, without an instructor is just asking for injuries and trouble.


----------



## Josh Oakley

The way that the Gracie Academy does theirs from what I saw requires a workout partner. And to get rank you have to send in video of yourself and your partner for analysis. And if I remember right you have to actually travel to the california location to test for brown and black. From what little I saw, it didn't seem too bad... at least as far as videos go.


----------



## Chris Parker

monk64 said:


> Hi Chris,



Hi Andrew.



monk64 said:


> That is not totally true.  In cases where I've seen the material, I have longer commentary.  Some example of detailed reviews:



You know, some of those were ones that I read, and was referring to when I said that you didn't really review anything. To take them one by one:



monk64 said:


> http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-kung-fu-san-soo



Right. The first one. 

I understand that this was your instructor at one time, and you believe him to be, in your words, "the real deal", and as a result you do bring more information as to what the course is like, but again, this is just a list of what is in it coupled with some pricing and an anecdote about the reason it was done in the first place. There is no review here. You talk about what you receive (physical objects, the books etc), but little on the actual content or process, other than "you buy the next one when you're ready for it". There is no mention of how your progress is monitored, how you can tell whether or not you're "ready" for the next bit, what value for money is actually being shown, or even whether or not it's one you'd recommend.

Based purely on the information you posted on that page, though, if I was to offer a review it would be as follows:

"This Home Training Program is a structured approach to learning San Soo Kung Fu, a supposedly ancient Chinese art based around Five Families, and Five Animal forms, which was brought to the US by Jimmy Haw Woo. Woo wasn't fond of the idea of the animal forms, stating that "We fight like men, not animals", so he abandoned that side of the system as he taught, instead focusing only on the Five Family methods. He also simplified the name to Kung Fu San Soo, as he felt it would be easier for the American students to pronounce and remember.

The system itself is a highly aggressive system, comprising of large, swinging strikes, kicks, and grappling, including joint locks and throws, some very acrobatic in execution. It is claimed that this method allows smaller people to fight against larger opponents without needing to rely on strength to overpower them. It is presented here by Master Bill Hulsey, a student of Jimmy Woo's, along with Frank Woolsey. He has divided the course along the same lines as taught in his live classes, starting with the 45 "Ah Soo" lessons, which act as the "basics" for this system, before moving on to other methods.

The course material consists of books and DVDs, starting with the "Yellow Belt" package, at $169 plus shipping. Unlike many other courses, there is no set progression or testing, so it is left up to the student to decide when he or she is ready for the next set of techniques. This can raise some major issues of quality, as it can be assumed that the student, only having the basics to go on, really isn't the best judge of when they should progress. Ideally, I'd look for something that provided at least some form of guidance and feedback, so on that alone I'd be leaving this program where I found it.

However, I would be remiss if I didn't at least address the content in the course itself. 

Master Hulsey presents the material in an intimate, friendly environment, rather than a stale, plain recording studio, and seems genuinely interested in providing the pertinent information for his distance students. Unfortunately, the little that I saw left me less than impressed, as the technique shown had some major issues, from the lack of a present guard, to being wildly open a lot of the time, poor balance and body structure being shown, incredibly telegraphed striking to (what looked like) badly targeted areas, and more. Additionally, there are some major issues with the historical information that he gave, such as the idea that the American's "didn't know how to punch", as well as issues with some of the information designed to separate his approach from others (such as the idea of the targeting being more "precise"... by targeting towards the "spleen, liver, kidneys, heart", instead of "ribs, ribs, ribs, ribs". Hmm, most systems I know treat targeting far more precisely than that...). The actual methods of the system also seem to fly in the face of it's claimed history of being "thousands of years old", and "the oldest martial art in existance", being largely overly aggressive, overly complicated, unrealistic for actual application in many cases, and more. The idea of only having a couple of belt levels being "traditional" is beyond ridiculous, as it's a very modern construct as it is, and that combined with this "Chinese" system having the majority of it's practitioners wearing either Korean or Japanese uniforms is just plain odd.

The video of a distance student, although the student is relatively clean in their execution of the techniques, show the issues with such distance learning programs. The student was universally poorly distanced, had little to no sense of timing and rhythm, was regularly in very dangerous positions, and relied completely on the attacker stopping as soon as the defence started.

In conclusion, this is not a program I would recommend. The delivery is well meaning and sincere, but that cannot, and does not make up for the problems found in the system itself, or the issues with this form of learning."

There, as you can see, is a breakdown of the product, relative value shown, and a conclusion/recommendation. This is what makes it a review, rather than a summary or overview, which is what your site actually has. Oh, and I genuinely would have major issues with what is being taught in this program, for the record.



monk64 said:


> http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-ultimate-karate



Here you were closer, as you were stating whether or not you'd recommend it... but that, by your own admission, was probably due to your "lack of appreciation for TKD". You complain about the way the techniques are structured, as you're used to overkill methods (the San Soo and Kempo approaches), wanting longer, more complex actions against simple attacks such as a wrist grab... when, I really gotta tell you, what you describe is likely far more valuable than what you wanted to see. In Japanese arts, the idea of te hodoki (grip releases) are very much what you describe, and are an essential skill for later techniques. This is less of a review, and more just you saying you don't like the structure of the "lessons".



monk64 said:


> http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-ninjutsu-home-study



You start this out by blatantly stating your lack of interest in the Ninjutsu systems, due to some rather flawed information you relate (there is no thought of Hatsumi creating the arts, he has synthesised what he learnt from his instructor, Takamatsu, into what is now referred to as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but he didn't make any of the material [speaking of the  "traditional schools] that he teaches up. Whether or not Takamatsu made some of them up is another question, but it always needs to be noted that at least two of the systems have unimpeachable pedigrees in Japanese martial arts, those of the Takagi and Kukishin lines. There is no "aping" of movies, as the art flies in the face of such things, with much work being done to go against such images, unlike the San Soo system above, which is very much a movie-style system in many regards [such as the frequent flashy moves and takedowns]). So I'd rethink such initial comments, as it really does colour your following words.

When it comes to a "review", you again list the costs and some of what you receive, then offer two complaints and an alternative. That, again, isn't a review. It's a lacklustre summary.

Now, don't get me wrong, I could rip RVD's course apart quite easily, and have done so before. I'm really not a fan of it at all, and you'll be hard pressed to find many Ninjutsu practitioners that are fans (other than those who have gotten their ranking that way...), but this isn't a review.



monk64 said:


> It's impossible for me to purchase and review all these courses...nor am I eccentric enough to want to   However, I'm hoping that others who have participated in these programs will add their comments and reviews.



Then set up the site as one where people who have purchased them make their own reviews. There's an option for comments on the pages, but no invitation to give personal insight based on actual experience going through one of these things. The question is, though, if you don't want to get them all, and can't get them all, how are you in a position to review them? And if you're reviewing them without any actual experience with them, why should anyone listen to what you say about them?



monk64 said:


> I've also tried to add information where I know the people involved.  For example, I spoke with Jon Ferguson from Hapkido Online, Larry Tatum with his home study program, etc. and consolidated the information they gave me into my comments.



These are another two programs where you state that you haven't seen them, so no review is really possible. The only information that they really seemed to provide (especially Larry) is what you get in the package... which surely could be obtained by getting the program? Jon gave some info stating that the program they have (Hapkido Online) will be the "only online learning system" for the Tactical Hapkido Association... uh, okay? Were they using a dozen or so already, and wanted to simplify? Why do they need one?



monk64 said:


> It's a short list, but growing.  Since I opened the site up, people have sent me six more programs (not all of which I've had time to list yet).  I'm honestly surprised how many there are.



 I could probably tell you about a dozen more, honestly, but don't see much point in giving more advertising to such approaches.



monk64 said:


> I suspect from your sig that you're a ninjutsu practitioner, and may not have liked my comments on the history of that style.  That's fine - we can agree to disagree, but I think my comments on the Van Donk and Stephen Hayes courses jibe with a lot of commentary I've read elsewhere.



You suspect from my signature that states "Ninjutsu Australia" that I'm a Ninjutsu practitioner... well, yep. Amongst other things. And honestly, I have no issue with people questioning the claimed history of the systems, there are certainly doubts over a number of the arts taught. The issue was not only with that (although what you think was your "correction" was completely wrong, so you know), but also with comments about the San Soo system only using Yellow, Green, Brown and Black belts because it's more "traditional"... when Chinese systems don't use belts, they use sashes, and that ranking is a very modern one anyway, so there's nothing "more traditional" about any such ranking approach. Chinese systems tend towards very simplified ranking... you're a student, or you're the teacher. That's it. No belts, no colours, no ranks, really.

But yeah, your take on what is taught in Ninjutsu schools around the world is not correct. Either.



monk64 said:


> I didn't pass judgement on any art, actually.  Even my comment on ninjutsu was simply to question the hagiography that it was handed down from ninjas of long ago, Haatsumi is the 34th heir, etc. You're absolutely right that I'm not in a position to state whether it's better to study Hapkido versus Kung Fu San Soo versus Shotokan - but then, I don't do that.  I simply examine the programs.



You didn't pass judgement on any art? Hmm....



			
				BlackBeltDL said:
			
		

> I'm not a huge fan of homebrew systems. http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-ultimate-karate/





			
				BlackBeltDL said:
			
		

> Danny Lane teaches a Tang Soo Do homebrew program.Personally, this sentence really turned me off: His system unites Tang Soo Do, Karate, Judo, Jui-Jitsu, Aikido, Sport Karate, Kickboxing, and Police and Military Tactics and Street Survival techniques, giving you a fast, effective method of Self-Defense.  Mixing seven different martial arts into one program is not my idea of excellence.http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-danny-lane/​






			
				BlackBeltDL said:
			
		

> (A little googlingturns up the fact that he was a Steve LaVallee student.  Perhaps this is why hes not eager to mention his mentor.) http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-international-karate-school/





			
				BlackBeltDL said:
			
		

> First, I suppose I should briefly summarize my feelings on ninjutsu:Masaaki Hatsumis true black belt is in marketing.  There is no evidence that he is heir to a centuries-old tradition handed down by ninjas.  His training program is a homemade synthesis of various martial arts traditions, skinned in a slick black cowl.  Is it an effective art?  Sure  hes not a bad martial artist, just a self-invented one.  You can certainly learn martial arts moves by studying ninjutsu, but do so with eyes wide open.  You are studying a modern, 20th century blend that shamelessly apes a cool movie image, not an ancient tradition.  Unfortunately, the Bujikan and its ilk tend to attract a lot of people who are happy to share a state of reduced skepticism with any comer.
> http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-ninjutsu-home-study/​





			
				BlackBeltDL said:
			
		

> Homebrew systems start with a heavy burden of skepticism for me to overcome.  There are so many good martial arts out there covering so many different aspects and possibilities that it makes me wonder why someone has to invent a new one.  Its one thing when its a genuine, recognized master (who is often tweaking or refining the art)its another if its someone no ones ever heard of.http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-sajado/





			
				BlackBeltDL said:
			
		

> I studied with Bill Hulsey locally when I lived in Los Angeles.  He is the real deal and a fantastic instructor.  One of Jimmy Woos students, Hulsey teaches old school San Soo.http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-kung-fu-san-soo/


(They're not all negative comments about the systems....)



			
				BlackBeltDL said:
			
		

> When I was about 18, Stephen K. Hayes was like unto a God to me.  Then I learned more about the martial arts and the history of ninjutsu and his stock fell precipitously.http://www.blackbeltdl.com/program-to-shin-do-home-study/



There are other cases where the quality of a system is implied through the language chosen, but this is a decent little collection to demonstrate my point. Especially when the "reviews" can be so short in and of themselves... 



monk64 said:


> I included some examples of more detailed reviews, so I disagree about that.  Certainly there are some entries which are just a brief summary because that's all I know.  There are a few where the warning/scam flags are very big and it didn't seem worthwhile to go further.



I'm not saying I disagree with some of your negative comments about a range of the offerings, but I haven't seen anything on your page that I'd class as an actual review. Have you reviewed anything before?​


monk64 said:


> By impartial, I mean that I don't have any financial interest in any of these programs.  Indeed, I certainly didn't include any affiliate links or anything like that.



While you may not have a financial stake in them, your bias colours a number of your descriptions... and when there isn't any actual review, no viewing of the actual material, all there is are your opinions of the arts themselves... or the teachers (such as in the cases of Larry Tatum and Bill Hulsey).



monk64 said:


> What I hope to achieve is
> 
> a directory of such programs.  I honestly was very surprised how many there were and in such diverse styles.
> review of such programs.  As I mentioned, I obviously can't review them all but hopefully people can contribute.  I've left the site settings so people can contribute anonymously and I don't plan to censor any non-spam comments.
> advice for people considering such programs.





Okay, that's the way you want to achieve your aims, but what are your actual aims? Why do you think such a directory is needed, or a good thing? And why would you start something that you yourself recognize you will be unable, and are even unwilling to actually complete yourself?



monk64 said:


> I guess I'd summarize as this: imagine someone takes an interest in a program from an ad or something they see.  They google and come across my site, and then read general advice on martial arts home study, my checklist of things to ask schools, compare that program to many others, perhaps look at my forum links (which I need to extend) and come to one of these forums and ask questions, etc.  At the end of that, they'll be much more informed about what they're getting into.  That's really my only goal.



The problem is that a review is an informed recommendation based on analysis of the product and it's suitability for it's intended market. If you haven't watched most of the programs, how could your review be informed? How could you make a recommendation without analysis of the actual product? Those that you are intending to come to the site will be dominantly uninformed and inexperienced kids who think that such an approach is feasible, as they are "good at learning by themselves" and "there isn't a teacher near me". You know what the real answer is? If there isn't a teacher near you, move. If you don't want to move, or can't move, you can't learn whatever art. The best is you maybe could pick up some techniques, but there is no guarantee you're doing them the way they're meant to be done, at their optimum, or even well. The way it stands, it's like telling kids that you've never tried drugs, but you hear that these are the best ways to try heroin... I'm sure not everyone gets addicted....

Really, I get where you're coming from, but frankly, this goal is fraught with danger. From my perspective, the best case scenario is that no-one visits it... the worst is that people take it as validation of this as an approach to genuinely learn martial arts.



monk64 said:


> No problem, Chris.  I've spend enough time on the mat that my skin is thick



Good to know.


----------



## monk64

I appreciate your detailed critique, Chris.

As a sort of meta-response - the site has only been up for a few days, so it's still in its infancy and will hopefully improve over time.

I hadn't thought of going into details about the style and history of it, pros and cons, etc. as I assume that someone interested in a particular style could easily read elsewhere.  But it's an idea.

While I do make some comments on some styles - and you're right that perhaps it would be better not to mix opinion with the directory info - I don't tell people that this art is better than that one or say "if you want to study MA via DL, here is what you should get".  

The homebrew nonsense like "Sajado" is a different matter - that's less a case of a legitimate art and more someone's goofiness if not scam.  



Chris Parker said:


> Here you were closer, as you were stating whether or not you'd recommend it... but that, by your own admission, was probably due to your "lack of appreciation for TKD". You complain about the way the techniques are structured, as you're used to overkill methods (the San Soo and Kempo approaches), wanting longer, more complex actions against simple attacks such as a wrist grab... when, I really gotta tell you, what you describe is likely far more valuable than what you wanted to see. In Japanese arts, the idea of te hodoki (grip releases) are very much what you describe, and are an essential skill for later techniques. This is less of a review, and more just you saying you don't like the structure of the "lessons".



My critique is primarily about this particular program - my side comment probably detracts from it.  What I was trying to emphasize was the extreme shallowness of the material in this course.  It's a pity I can't post the video (it's obviously copyrighted) because you would laugh - the technique shown has zero depth of analysis and the entire presentation is less than 60 seconds.  It's simply "pull away".  There's a small core truth about thumbs and grips, but I think anyone watching it would laugh.  



Chris Parker said:


> Then set up the site as one where people who have purchased them make their own reviews. There's an option for comments on the pages, but no invitation to give personal insight based on actual experience going through one of these things.



That's a good point - I should make the invitation to comment more pronounced, and perhaps provide a review form or way of submitting a review other than just a generic contact page.

To refine, I was hoping to make some commentary on programs I have actually seen, as well as meta comments about how some programs provide no preview, hidden costs that may not be obvious at first glance, information on the instructor from elsewhere, etc.  Hence systems I haven't seen are probably going to be a bit threadbare, pending comments.

Let me draw a parallel - there was at one time a review site for VPS (virtual private server) providers.  The owner posted offers as he came across them.  Those where he was a client, he gave a lot of detailed information.  For those he wasn't, he would mention pros/cons that he could see from the offer (new provider, bad data center location, high cost for bandwidth, reputation elsehwere) and invite comments.  That's the approach I'm taking.

I do have some opinions on various arts which I should probably separate out into an opinion section lest they distract from the summaries.  Good point.



Chris Parker said:


> Why do you think such a directory is needed, or a good thing?



Why would it not be?

If you start from the assumption that all DL is bad, then I suppose it's impossible for you to view any collection of information on it with anything but scorn.  I think given the spectrum of DL - people training alone, with partners, backyard groups, people learning sister styles, people supplementing, etc. - that assuming all DL is bad is painting with too broad a brush.

Where else could someone read reviews or comments by people who've bought them?  They're not sold on Amazon.



Chris Parker said:


> Really, I get where you're coming from, but frankly, this goal is fraught with danger. From my perspective, the best case scenario is that no-one visits it... the worst is that people take it as validation of this as an approach to genuinely learn martial arts.



I think that's is the core of your objection and it may be difficult to have any DL-oriented site that does not offend.  And I respect that - hopefully my site gives voice to criticism as well.  I do have a page on that, as well as other pros/cons info.  I stated my intent and won't bore with a repeat.

I sincerely appreciate your detailed, if acerbic, commentary   I will likely make some changes based on it and I thank you for taking the time to give your commentary.


----------



## Tames D

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Andrew.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, some of those were ones that I read, and was referring to when I said that you didn't really review anything. To take them one by one:
> 
> 
> 
> Right. The first one.
> 
> I understand that this was your instructor at one time, and you believe him to be, in your words, "the real deal", and as a result you do bring more information as to what the course is like, but again, this is just a list of what is in it coupled with some pricing and an anecdote about the reason it was done in the first place. There is no review here. You talk about what you receive (physical objects, the books etc), but little on the actual content or process, other than "you buy the next one when you're ready for it". There is no mention of how your progress is monitored, how you can tell whether or not you're "ready" for the next bit, what value for money is actually being shown, or even whether or not it's one you'd recommend.
> 
> Based purely on the information you posted on that page, though, if I was to offer a review it would be as follows:
> 
> "This Home Training Program is a structured approach to learning San Soo Kung Fu, a supposedly ancient Chinese art based around Five Families, and Five Animal forms, which was brought to the US by Jimmy Haw Woo. Woo wasn't fond of the idea of the animal forms, stating that "We fight like men, not animals", so he abandoned that side of the system as he taught, instead focusing only on the Five Family methods. He also simplified the name to Kung Fu San Soo, as he felt it would be easier for the American students to pronounce and remember.
> 
> The system itself is a highly aggressive system, comprising of large, swinging strikes, kicks, and grappling, including joint locks and throws, some very acrobatic in execution. It is claimed that this method allows smaller people to fight against larger opponents without needing to rely on strength to overpower them. It is presented here by Master Bill Hulsey, a student of Jimmy Woo's, along with Frank Woolsey. He has divided the course along the same lines as taught in his live classes, starting with the 45 "Ah Soo" lessons, which act as the "basics" for this system, before moving on to other methods.
> 
> The course material consists of books and DVDs, starting with the "Yellow Belt" package, at $169 plus shipping. Unlike many other courses, there is no set progression or testing, so it is left up to the student to decide when he or she is ready for the next set of techniques. This can raise some major issues of quality, as it can be assumed that the student, only having the basics to go on, really isn't the best judge of when they should progress. Ideally, I'd look for something that provided at least some form of guidance and feedback, so on that alone I'd be leaving this program where I found it.
> 
> However, I would be remiss if I didn't at least address the content in the course itself.
> 
> Master Hulsey presents the material in an intimate, friendly environment, rather than a stale, plain recording studio, and seems genuinely interested in providing the pertinent information for his distance students. Unfortunately, the little that I saw left me less than impressed, as the technique shown had some major issues, from the lack of a present guard, to being wildly open a lot of the time, poor balance and body structure being shown, incredibly telegraphed striking to (what looked like) badly targeted areas, and more. Additionally, there are some major issues with the historical information that he gave, such as the idea that the American's "didn't know how to punch", as well as issues with some of the information designed to separate his approach from others (such as the idea of the targeting being more "precise"... by targeting towards the "spleen, liver, kidneys, heart", instead of "ribs, ribs, ribs, ribs". Hmm, most systems I know treat targeting far more precisely than that...). The actual methods of the system also seem to fly in the face of it's claimed history of being "thousands of years old", and "the oldest martial art in existance", being largely overly aggressive, overly complicated, unrealistic for actual application in many cases, and more. The idea of only having a couple of belt levels being "traditional" is beyond ridiculous, as it's a very modern construct as it is, and that combined with this "Chinese" system having the majority of it's practitioners wearing either Korean or Japanese uniforms is just plain odd.
> 
> The video of a distance student, although the student is relatively clean in their execution of the techniques, show the issues with such distance learning programs. The student was universally poorly distanced, had little to no sense of timing and rhythm, was regularly in very dangerous positions, and relied completely on the attacker stopping as soon as the defence started.
> 
> In conclusion, this is not a program I would recommend. The delivery is well meaning and sincere, but that cannot, and does not make up for the problems found in the system itself, or the issues with this form of learning."
> 
> There, as you can see, is a breakdown of the product, relative value shown, and a conclusion/recommendation. This is what makes it a review, rather than a summary or overview, which is what your site actually has. Oh, and I genuinely would have major issues with what is being taught in this program, for the record.
> 
> 
> 
> Here you were closer, as you were stating whether or not you'd recommend it... but that, by your own admission, was probably due to your "lack of appreciation for TKD". You complain about the way the techniques are structured, as you're used to overkill methods (the San Soo and Kempo approaches), wanting longer, more complex actions against simple attacks such as a wrist grab... when, I really gotta tell you, what you describe is likely far more valuable than what you wanted to see. In Japanese arts, the idea of te hodoki (grip releases) are very much what you describe, and are an essential skill for later techniques. This is less of a review, and more just you saying you don't like the structure of the "lessons".
> 
> 
> 
> You start this out by blatantly stating your lack of interest in the Ninjutsu systems, due to some rather flawed information you relate (there is no thought of Hatsumi creating the arts, he has synthesised what he learnt from his instructor, Takamatsu, into what is now referred to as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but he didn't make any of the material [speaking of the  "traditional schools] that he teaches up. Whether or not Takamatsu made some of them up is another question, but it always needs to be noted that at least two of the systems have unimpeachable pedigrees in Japanese martial arts, those of the Takagi and Kukishin lines. There is no "aping" of movies, as the art flies in the face of such things, with much work being done to go against such images, unlike the San Soo system above, which is very much a movie-style system in many regards [such as the frequent flashy moves and takedowns]). So I'd rethink such initial comments, as it really does colour your following words.
> 
> When it comes to a "review", you again list the costs and some of what you receive, then offer two complaints and an alternative. That, again, isn't a review. It's a lacklustre summary.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong, I could rip RVD's course apart quite easily, and have done so before. I'm really not a fan of it at all, and you'll be hard pressed to find many Ninjutsu practitioners that are fans (other than those who have gotten their ranking that way...), but this isn't a review.
> 
> 
> 
> Then set up the site as one where people who have purchased them make their own reviews. There's an option for comments on the pages, but no invitation to give personal insight based on actual experience going through one of these things. The question is, though, if you don't want to get them all, and can't get them all, how are you in a position to review them? And if you're reviewing them without any actual experience with them, why should anyone listen to what you say about them?
> 
> 
> 
> These are another two programs where you state that you haven't seen them, so no review is really possible. The only information that they really seemed to provide (especially Larry) is what you get in the package... which surely could be obtained by getting the program? Jon gave some info stating that the program they have (Hapkido Online) will be the "only online learning system" for the Tactical Hapkido Association... uh, okay? Were they using a dozen or so already, and wanted to simplify? Why do they need one?
> 
> 
> 
> I could probably tell you about a dozen more, honestly, but don't see much point in giving more advertising to such approaches.
> 
> 
> 
> You suspect from my signature that states "Ninjutsu Australia" that I'm a Ninjutsu practitioner... well, yep. Amongst other things. And honestly, I have no issue with people questioning the claimed history of the systems, there are certainly doubts over a number of the arts taught. The issue was not only with that (although what you think was your "correction" was completely wrong, so you know), but also with comments about the San Soo system only using Yellow, Green, Brown and Black belts because it's more "traditional"... when Chinese systems don't use belts, they use sashes, and that ranking is a very modern one anyway, so there's nothing "more traditional" about any such ranking approach. Chinese systems tend towards very simplified ranking... you're a student, or you're the teacher. That's it. No belts, no colours, no ranks, really.
> 
> But yeah, your take on what is taught in Ninjutsu schools around the world is not correct. Either.
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't pass judgement on any art? Hmm....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (They're not all negative comments about the systems....)
> 
> 
> 
> There are other cases where the quality of a system is implied through the language chosen, but this is a decent little collection to demonstrate my point. Especially when the "reviews" can be so short in and of themselves...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying I disagree with some of your negative comments about a range of the offerings, but I haven't seen anything on your page that I'd class as an actual review. Have you reviewed anything before?[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
> 
> While you may not have a financial stake in them, your bias colours a number of your descriptions... and when there isn't any actual review, no viewing of the actual material, all there is are your opinions of the arts themselves... or the teachers (such as in the cases of Larry Tatum and Bill Hulsey).
> 
> [/LIST]
> 
> Okay, that's the way you want to achieve your aims, but what are your actual aims? Why do you think such a directory is needed, or a good thing? And why would you start something that you yourself recognize you will be unable, and are even unwilling to actually complete yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that a review is an informed recommendation based on analysis of the product and it's suitability for it's intended market. If you haven't watched most of the programs, how could your review be informed? How could you make a recommendation without analysis of the actual product? Those that you are intending to come to the site will be dominantly uninformed and inexperienced kids who think that such an approach is feasible, as they are "good at learning by themselves" and "there isn't a teacher near me". You know what the real answer is? If there isn't a teacher near you, move. If you don't want to move, or can't move, you can't learn whatever art. The best is you maybe could pick up some techniques, but there is no guarantee you're doing them the way they're meant to be done, at their optimum, or even well. The way it stands, it's like telling kids that you've never tried drugs, but you hear that these are the best ways to try heroin... I'm sure not everyone gets addicted....
> 
> Really, I get where you're coming from, but frankly, this goal is fraught with danger. From my perspective, the best case scenario is that no-one visits it... the worst is that people take it as validation of this as an approach to genuinely learn martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know.



Seriously Chris... do you ever have anything good to say about anybody or their art? I know you will have an excellent response to this, But really, is there any art other than ninja stuff that you can admit is pretty good? Your negativity is getting old.


----------



## Cyriacus

Ive seen Chris complain about Ninjutsu, though?


----------



## Tames D

Cyriacus said:


> Ive seen Chris complain about Ninjutsu, though?



But not HIS Ninjutsu.


----------



## Cyriacus

Tames D said:


> But not HIS Ninjutsu.



I dont see Him mention His Ninjutsu very much either - But this isnt My discussion. You two have fun now!


----------



## punisher73

Tez3 said:


> I'd have to wonder how you can learn to throw someone when you are learning on your own from a video, the same with grappling, how do you grapple on your own?  Of course on a serious point learning to throw, grapple etc with someone else who is also a beginner, without an instructor is just asking for injuries and trouble.



Point out one example.  Evan Tanner, former UFC Middleweight champ, taught himself grappling from dvds.  Him and his training partners would watch them and then drill them over and over.


----------



## Chris Parker

monk64 said:


> I appreciate your detailed critique, Chris.



Not a problem.



monk64 said:


> As a sort of meta-response - the site has only been up for a few days, so it's still in its infancy and will hopefully improve over time.



Cool.



monk64 said:


> I hadn't thought of going into details about the style and history of it, pros and cons, etc. as I assume that someone interested in a particular style could easily read elsewhere.  But it's an idea.



If a potential student is looking at distance learning, then they will typically have no real experience. I wouldn't trust what research they'd done... from a number of years on the forums, as well as two and a half decades in the arts, it's amazing how many people ask about things but show no real clue about what they're asking for at all.



monk64 said:


> While I do make some comments on some styles - and you're right that perhaps it would be better not to mix opinion with the directory info - I don't tell people that this art is better than that one or say "if you want to study MA via DL, here is what you should get".


 
You tell people that if they want to study Ninjutsu as taught in the various X-Kan (Bujinkan, Genbukan etc) groups that they are being had, and are just copying movie themed actions. Besides that being incorrect on a number of levels, it really does have the implication of "don't do this one", without getting to the course itself. 



monk64 said:


> The homebrew nonsense like "Sajado" is a different matter - that's less a case of a legitimate art and more someone's goofiness if not scam.



As I said, I don't necessarily disagree with some of your negative comments.



monk64 said:


> My critique is primarily about this particular program - my side comment probably detracts from it.  What I was trying to emphasize was the extreme shallowness of the material in this course.  It's a pity I can't post the video (it's obviously copyrighted) because you would laugh - the technique shown has zero depth of analysis and the entire presentation is less than 60 seconds.  It's simply "pull away".  There's a small core truth about thumbs and grips, but I think anyone watching it would laugh.



Fair enough, I'll take your word for that.



monk64 said:


> That's a good point - I should make the invitation to comment more pronounced, and perhaps provide a review form or way of submitting a review other than just a generic contact page.



Cool.



monk64 said:


> To refine, I was hoping to make some commentary on programs I have actually seen, as well as meta comments about how some programs provide no preview, hidden costs that may not be obvious at first glance, information on the instructor from elsewhere, etc.  Hence systems I haven't seen are probably going to be a bit threadbare, pending comments.



Okay.



monk64 said:


> Let me draw a parallel - there was at one time a review site for VPS (virtual private server) providers.  The owner posted offers as he came across them.  Those where he was a client, he gave a lot of detailed information.  For those he wasn't, he would mention pros/cons that he could see from the offer (new provider, bad data center location, high cost for bandwidth, reputation elsehwere) and invite comments.  That's the approach I'm taking.



Oh, I get your methodology. I disagree that it's the same here, though, as in that instance, having information about the virtual servers (which is largely data anyway) is fine, martial arts are a physical study, which means that this approach isn't the same thing.



monk64 said:


> I do have some opinions on various arts which I should probably separate out into an opinion section lest they distract from the summaries.  Good point.



Okay.



monk64 said:


> Why would it not be?



Because distance learning is deeply and fundamentally flawed from the outset.



monk64 said:


> If you start from the assumption that all DL is bad, then I suppose it's impossible for you to view any collection of information on it with anything but scorn.  I think given the spectrum of DL - people training alone, with partners, backyard groups, people learning sister styles, people supplementing, etc. - that assuming all DL is bad is painting with too broad a brush.



Honestly, it's not an assumption. Knowing the way martial arts work, the way the training works, and so forth, means that I can categorically dismiss distance learning for actually learning a martial art. Techniques, sure, but not a martial art.



monk64 said:


> Where else could someone read reviews or comments by people who've bought them?  They're not sold on Amazon.



Uh... some are.



monk64 said:


> I think that's is the core of your objection and it may be difficult to have any DL-oriented site that does not offend.  And I respect that - hopefully my site gives voice to criticism as well.  I do have a page on that, as well as other pros/cons info.  I stated my intent and won't bore with a repeat.



Okay.



monk64 said:


> I sincerely appreciate your detailed, if acerbic, commentary   I will likely make some changes based on it and I thank you for taking the time to give your commentary.



Ha, we haven't hit acerbic yet... that was positively dispassionate.



Tames D said:


> Seriously Chris... do you ever have anything good to say about anybody or their art? I know you will have an excellent response to this, But really, is there any art other than ninja stuff that you can admit is pretty good? Your negativity is getting old.
> 
> 
> 
> Cyriacus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ive seen Chris complain about Ninjutsu, though?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tames D said:
> 
> 
> 
> But not HIS Ninjutsu.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


You think that was negative, Tames? No, it wasn't, really. As far as systems/arts that I do think positively of, there's quite a long list of them, really. And as far as complaining about "my Ninjutsu", are you referring to my personal organisation, or the arts found in it (and other organisations)?


----------



## punisher73

Ok, if someone has mentioned this previously I apologize.  I started to read the thread and the first page and when it got to the personal attacks just skipped to the end.

Yes, we all know that if you have access to a GOOD live instructor it is best.

But, you had mentioned kenpo training previously.  If you liked that, I would check out the IKCA at www.karateconnection.com  They have put together a home study course that is pretty good.  You study the material, and then submit a dvd of you performing the material for reps and different angles.  They watch the dvd, and then film a critique of the material and what you need to work on.  It is an actual test, and not everyone is passed just because they sent the check in.  It also requires you to work with a partner and have the techniques performed on a person.

Not to derail this, what did the first martial artists do?  Oh, that's right they just got together and practiced and figured out what worked and what didn't.  To think that you can't learn to defend yourself without a teacher at all is martial snobbery.  A teacher will help your journey go quicker and can make it more effective, but it's not that hard to punch/kick/twist somebody.  Now, if you are talking the higher levels and subtleties, then yes you will need one.  But, for basics, I'm not so sure.


----------



## MJS

punisher73 said:


> Not to derail this, what did the first martial artists do?  Oh, that's right they just got together and practiced and figured out what worked and what didn't.  To think that you can't learn to defend yourself without a teacher at all is martial snobbery.  A teacher will help your journey go quicker and can make it more effective, but it's not that hard to punch/kick/twist somebody.  Now, if you are talking the higher levels and subtleties, then yes you will need one.  But, for basics, I'm not so sure.



Valid point.  So, going on this, it would seem to me, that the martial artists of old, had a desire to learn, a desire to train, were willing to put in the hard work, aka the blood, sweat and tears.  Hell, Kajukenbo would be a classic example of what you just described.  So, my question is this:  Do those that wish to take an easier route, ie: learn via video, vs. busting their *** on the mat, have the same desires of the MAists of old?  I'd say no.  Why?  Because if they really did, they'd be doing just that...getting on the mat, busting their ***, putting in the blood, sweat and tears.  

I don't think its snobbery...I think its a fact, a fact that if you really want to learn, you'd get a teacher.  You're right, anyone can punch, kick, etc.  Hell, you need to look no further than youtube, and you can see a bunch of 'warriors' doing what you said.  However, those folks will only be as good as what you see.


----------



## kitkatninja

Not sure if Tas Kwon Do is of any interest to you, but there is a home study course run by Master Sung J. Woo (6th Degree from the WTF) going all the way to black belt recognised by Kukkiwon (The W.T.F headquarters in Korea).

I don't know what the program is like myself as I don't do TKD, but I'm considering it as I do TSD now.  I used to do shotokan, kickboxing and freestyle karate (as well as various other styles of karate) in the past.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tames D said:


> Seriously Chris... do you ever have anything good to say about anybody or their art? I know you will have an excellent response to this, But really, is there any art other than ninja stuff that you can admit is pretty good? Your negativity is getting old.



actually, I personally appreciate the fact that Chris is often willing to speak up and call BS where the BS is rampant.  There are a whole lot of bad ideas floating around out there and a whole lot of people who seem willing to give the propagators of these bad ideas a pat on the back and the encouragement to continue.  Seems to me that Chris is pointing out these bad ideas for what they are.  I agree with him.

People can make their own decisions about it, continue with their bad ideas if they wish, that's their choice to make.  But at least people like Chris have given their honest opinion on the subject.


----------



## Flying Crane

MJS said:


> Valid point.  So, going on this, it would seem to me, that the martial artists of old, had a desire to learn, a desire to train, were willing to put in the hard work, aka the blood, sweat and tears.  Hell, Kajukenbo would be a classic example of what you just described.  So, my question is this:  Do those that wish to take an easier route, ie: learn via video, vs. busting their *** on the mat, have the same desires of the MAists of old?  I'd say no.  Why?  Because if they really did, they'd be doing just that...getting on the mat, busting their ***, putting in the blood, sweat and tears.
> 
> I don't think its snobbery...I think its a fact, a fact that if you really want to learn, you'd get a teacher.  You're right, anyone can punch, kick, etc.  Hell, you need to look no further than youtube, and you can see a bunch of 'warriors' doing what you said.  However, those folks will only be as good as what you see.



seems to me that a big part of the issue lies in a sense of entitlement.  Someone wishes to study a particular art, but there are no quality teachers of that art nearby.  So people look for an alternate.  They don't look for a quality teacher of something else, rather they look for an alternate way to get what they want.  Video, distance learning, etc.  And people who pursue this method want to believe that it is just as good as having a good instructor, or is at least "good enough."  They are delusional.

I just find it weird.


----------



## Tez3

punisher73 said:


> Point out one example. Evan Tanner, former UFC Middleweight champ, taught himself grappling from dvds. Him and his training partners would watch them and then drill them over and over.



Ah but as you say, he and* his training partners*, I was asking how one can do it all on one's own.   He was already a wrestler so watching BJJ moves and making them work was relatively easy for him having down an allied art before.


----------



## Tames D

Flying Crane said:


> actually, I personally appreciate the fact that Chris is often willing to speak up and call BS where the BS is rampant.  There are a whole lot of bad ideas floating around out there and a whole lot of people who seem willing to give the propagators of these bad ideas a pat on the back and the encouragement to continue.  Seems to me that Chris is pointing out these bad ideas for what they are.  I agree with him.
> 
> People can make their own decisions about it, continue with their bad ideas if they wish, that's their choice to make.  But at least people like Chris have given their honest opinion on the subject.



I agree with you FC. That's not what my post was about. I have no probem with a self appointed watchdog for bad martial arts. Re-read my post. Maybe I just didn't communicate very well.


----------



## MJS

Flying Crane said:


> seems to me that a big part of the issue lies in a sense of entitlement.  Someone wishes to study a particular art, but there are no quality teachers of that art nearby.  So people look for an alternate.  They don't look for a quality teacher of something else, rather they look for an alternate way to get what they want.  Video, distance learning, etc.  And people who pursue this method want to believe that it is just as good as having a good instructor, or is at least "good enough."  They are delusional.
> 
> I just find it weird.



Agreed.  Usually in those cases, I suggest the following:  1) Accept the fact that the art that you're looking for is either not in your area or if it is, the quality of teachers suck, 2) travel to the area a few times a month to get training, 3) move to the area where the training is, if possible, 4) Train in something else.  

People have done what I said, hell, I've done it myself.  After being unsatisfied with the quality of Kenpo in my area, in addition to teachers who are more interested in the $$, rather than training, I began a new path.  I thank God every day that I did.  My only regret is not starting down that path sooner, but as the old saying goes....better late than never.


----------



## Chris Parker

punisher73 said:


> Not to derail this, what did the first martial artists do?  Oh, that's right they just got together and practiced and figured out what worked and what didn't.


 
See, that's the problem with imagining what you think might be logical and common sense... because this is completely inaccurate. The "first martial artists" by no means "just got together and practiced and figured out what worked and what didn't". They were warriors who managed to survive enough battles to have some idea of something that helped them. As they got better, or at least more noticed, they rose up the ranks, until they were in command. This allowed them to gain insight into military strategy, which would be then further added to by subsequent generations. This then lead to established schools of military strategy and warriorship, which later became the core of martial art systems.

However that is a very general look at it, when you look at the ideas of "original martial artists", it is always in the context of the arts in question. For instance, you could talk about the "first martial artists", and be talking about particular warriors, say, swordsmen from Japan, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything when it comes to the founders of particular systems, even particular sword systems. When looking at said founders, it could be argued that prior to them, the art they taught didn't exist... so they are the "first martial artists" in this context.

That said, I feel you are using the phrase to imply some form of ancient proto-warriors who figured out a better way to clobber someone with a big stick... but I'd say that's completely removed from the idea of a martial artist.



punisher73 said:


> To think that you can't learn to defend yourself without a teacher at all is martial snobbery.


 
Who's talking about defending yourself? We're talking about learning particular martial arts here. And for that, you need a teacher. Otherwise, all you're doing is mimicking techniques. And that is far from training in a martial art.



punisher73 said:


> A teacher will help your journey go quicker and can make it more effective, but it's not that hard to punch/kick/twist somebody.


 
Which completely misses the idea of training in a particular martial art. If that's all that was required/desired, there'd be some teacher of some system around. This is when someone wants a particular art, and turns to distance learning.



punisher73 said:


> Now, if you are talking the higher levels and subtleties, then yes you will need one.  But, for basics, I'm not so sure.



Basics for what? As an example, I'm rather conversant with some dozen or so systems, as well as being familiar with at least as many again, and each have their own approach to "basics". Some are similar, others are wildly different, and each are unique and particular to each of the arts. If all you want to learn is how to hit someone, learn boxing. But if you want a particular martial art, you need guidance in that martial art. I mean, I train in five different sword systems, and each have different forms of grips, cutting mechanics, postures, angling, distancing, timing, and more. If you just want to be a generic swordsman, that's one thing.. but if you want to learn any of the particular methods, you need someone who understands them to teach them to you. Even (and especially!) the basics, as they form the basis for the entire art.

I'll put it this way, if you think you can learn "just the basics" without an instructor, then go and learn a punch. Just a punch. Then visit as many schools around you and see if the way you learnt is usable in their system. Most likely, the first thing you'd need to do is relearn how to punch if you want to learn those systems.



Tames D said:


> I agree with you FC. That's not what my post was about. I have no probem with a self appointed watchdog for bad martial arts. Re-read my post. Maybe I just didn't communicate very well.



Care to re-phrase, then?


----------



## GaryR

survivalist said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I'm curious if there are any home study courses that are not completely ridiculous. Ideally something with graded levels.
> 
> Yes and Yes, quite a few.






survivalist said:


> Before you burst into laughter...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in my 40s and am mainly interested in doing this for fun.
> I have a busy life and a number of physical activities I can't swap out for martial arts (i.e., we do stuff as a family and no one else has any MA interest). My free time tends to be at times when no MA studio is open - e.g., 5am.
> I have studied several martial arts but never particularly deeply because I've moved a bit. Six months each in two different styles of kung fu, purple belt in Kenpo.
> It's not vital to me how "effective" what I learn is. In fact, I wouldn't mind something that included a kata portion.
> I would like something with a belt system, as having goals to strive for keeps me motivated.



It is great to identify your training goals up front.  Many people have already given good advice.  As said before there is no replacement for an actual teacher.  Second to that is a video and a good training partner, and hopefully traveling to see the teacher, and others of high level as frequently as possible. 

Because you do not care if your material is combat viable, you should look to what you will enjoy the most, what gives the most positive work-out method that is fun, etc.  The metrics should be what makes you healthy etc,  Tai Chi is great for this, done slowly it is smooth, good on the joints, etc, plus, done quickly is a cardio work out. Coupled with Bagauzhang, spinning and coiling footwork / body mechanics makes it even more entertaining!

I have experience with both learning and teaching via home study courses, I had a few training partners, versed in other things as well.  Much like instructor on here, I made them initially for my military students when I deployed.  They found it useful, and thus far others have found it useful as well--and that was 10+ years ago.  

I will send you a DVD if you like when I start / finish my new volume for the cost of shipping, it may be more on the combative side, but you should enjoy it anyhoo.

Best,

Gary


----------



## jasonbrinn

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, it's not an assumption. *Knowing the way martial arts work, the way the training works, and so forth, means that I can categorically dismiss distance learning for actually learning a martial art*. Techniques, sure, but not a martial art.



Chris,

I am curious.  Could you briefly describe "the way martial arts work, the way the training works?"  I think it could be quite possible that some systems "work" and "train" differently then you may know and thus lend themselves just fine to distance learning.

If something or someone finds themselves outside of whatever your response is to "the way martial arts work, the way the training works" does that mean, in your opinion, that it is not a martial art and they are not martial artists?


Thank you,


Jason Brinn


----------



## MJS

jasonbrinn said:


> Chris,
> 
> I am curious.  Could you briefly describe "the way martial arts work, the way the training works?"  I think it could be quite possible that some systems "work" and "train" differently then you may know and thus lend themselves just fine to distance learning.
> 
> If something or someone finds themselves outside of whatever your response is to "the way martial arts work, the way the training works" does that mean, in your opinion, that it is not a martial art and they are not martial artists?
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> 
> Jason Brinn



Hi Jason,

I know you're addressing this to Chris, so I'll let him answer the question you asked.  However, this part caught my eye:

 "I think it could be quite possible that some systems "work" and "train" differently then you may know and thus lend themselves just fine to distance learning."

Granted, all systems are different, unless one is content with 'air training' and subpar skills, then I'm not sure how DL could be of any value.  Ex:  I've done Kenpo for over 20yrs.  If I were to pick up a Larry Tatum dvd, and watch it, I'd most likely gain something from it.  Why?  Because I'm going to be familiar with what he's doing.  Could I do the same with a TKD dvd?  Sure, I could mimic the moves of the kata, the techs, but as for an in-depth understanding of them?  Nope, not going to happen.  

I've yet to see a dvd that was so complete, that every single fine point was shown.


----------



## Chris Parker

jasonbrinn said:


> Chris,
> 
> I am curious.  Could you briefly describe "the way martial arts work, the way the training works?"  I think it could be quite possible that some systems "work" and "train" differently then you may know and thus lend themselves just fine to distance learning.
> 
> If something or someone finds themselves outside of whatever your response is to "the way martial arts work, the way the training works" does that mean, in your opinion, that it is not a martial art and they are not martial artists?
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> 
> Jason Brinn



It's not the easiest thing to put into words, really, and that's a big part of why distance learning doesn't work... but I'll give it a go.

Firstly, I'd highlight the part of my statement that followed the section you bolded, namely: "Techniques, sure, but not a martial art". In other words, there is quite a distinction between learning a martial art, and learning techniques. Learning techniques means that you learn the sequence of mechanical movements, the actions that make up the technique itself. Depending on how it's taught (via DVD, for instance), there may be aspects of the particular power generation, but not always. Learning a martial art, on the other hand, is learning a consistent and congruent way of moving that is then applied through the techniques. For this to be imparted, there needs to be constant guidance by someone who understands the art, which is far more than the techniques, to ensure that everything is done as the art itself dictates. And that simply can't happen by remote learning, as there is no contact to ensure that the art is being learnt with consistency. Add to that the limited scope of a DVD format, and you tend to have students adding in bits and pieces without having it based on actual knowledge of the art in question, as the student simply doesn't have it.

I'll put it this way: Learning a martial art is learning a complete approach which then informs everything done within that context. Learning techniques is learning single aspects devoid of the connection to that more complete approach, which get put together in a more random, haphazard fashion. For instance, I have some students with a variety of backgrounds, some TKD, some Karate, some CMA, and so on, some are still training in the other systems, some left those and then came to me, and so on. And some of these students still feel that what they learnt in the other systems is valid, as they feel the "techniques" they learnt there are strong and effective. Unfortunately, what they're doing (bringing in the methods of other arts, or really, bringing in methods that don't fit with the art I'm giving them) means that the art they're supposed to be learning isn't being learnt, and is being weakened (in them), due to the conflicting, or at least incongruent, methods and mechanics. But, left without guidance, they will continue to use the outside methods and techniques, due to a lack of knowledge of why things are done the way they are in our system. By them attending classes, I can correct them, and explain why things are done one way and not another, and in that way ensure that they are genuinely learning the martial art I'm teaching. Without guidance from someone who is watching each moment to ensure that the art is being followed, there is no way that an art is learnt. The best is that you could learn some techniques. Not a martial art.


----------



## DennisBreene

How would you react if a surgeon told you he had read all the books, watched all the DVDs and practiced diligently on a dummy at home, and now proposed to do bypass surgery on you. The absurdity is obvious.  The science and art of medicine takes years of training under people with vastly superior skills than one's initial abilities. Much of the art of medicine is learned at the side of mentors who have the experience and insight to know when a certain technique is the correct choice for a given situation and when it may be fatal in an apparantly identical situation.  That differance between technique and art is the same in MA.  Books, DVDs etc. may be excellent adjunctive materials.  They do not substitute for actual hands on training, and as the more complex builds from a strong foundation in the basics, the greater the risk of serious short and long term injury you face.
Please heed the advise of the many experienced practitioners who have written here and don't be a dilatant.  Either find a way to train properly or find another form of physical fitness that will serve you without the risks you face in MA.
With all hope that you find a path that works for you.
Dennis



Chris Parker said:


> It's not the easiest thing to put into words, really, and that's a big part of why distance learning doesn't work... but I'll give it a go.
> 
> Firstly, I'd highlight the part of my statement that followed the section you bolded, namely: "Techniques, sure, but not a martial art". In other words, there is quite a distinction between learning a martial art, and learning techniques. Learning techniques means that you learn the sequence of mechanical movements, the actions that make up the technique itself. Depending on how it's taught (via DVD, for instance), there may be aspects of the particular power generation, but not always. Learning a martial art, on the other hand, is learning a consistent and congruent way of moving that is then applied through the techniques. For this to be imparted, there needs to be constant guidance by someone who understands the art, which is far more than the techniques, to ensure that everything is done as the art itself dictates. And that simply can't happen by remote learning, as there is no contact to ensure that the art is being learnt with consistency. Add to that the limited scope of a DVD format, and you tend to have students adding in bits and pieces without having it based on actual knowledge of the art in question, as the student simply doesn't have it.
> 
> I'll put it this way: Learning a martial art is learning a complete approach which then informs everything done within that context. Learning techniques is learning single aspects devoid of the connection to that more complete approach, which get put together in a more random, haphazard fashion. For instance, I have some students with a variety of backgrounds, some TKD, some Karate, some CMA, and so on, some are still training in the other systems, some left those and then came to me, and so on. And some of these students still feel that what they learnt in the other systems is valid, as they feel the "techniques" they learnt there are strong and effective. Unfortunately, what they're doing (bringing in the methods of other arts, or really, bringing in methods that don't fit with the art I'm giving them) means that the art they're supposed to be learning isn't being learnt, and is being weakened (in them), due to the conflicting, or at least incongruent, methods and mechanics. But, left without guidance, they will continue to use the outside methods and techniques, due to a lack of knowledge of why things are done the way they are in our system. By them attending classes, I can correct them, and explain why things are done one way and not another, and in that way ensure that they are genuinely learning the martial art I'm teaching. Without guidance from someone who is watching each moment to ensure that the art is being followed, there is no way that an art is learnt. The best is that you could learn some techniques. Not a martial art.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Dennis.

Was there something in my post that you were commenting on? I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, and using my post to demonstrate that, or if you're directing your questions to me....


----------



## Gentle Fist

Chris Parker said:


> It's not the easiest thing to put into words, really, and that's a big part of why distance learning doesn't work... but I'll give it a go.
> 
> Firstly, I'd highlight the part of my statement that followed the section you bolded, namely: "Techniques, sure, but not a martial art". In other words, there is quite a distinction between learning a martial art, and learning techniques. Learning techniques means that you learn the sequence of mechanical movements, the actions that make up the technique itself. Depending on how it's taught (via DVD, for instance), there may be aspects of the particular power generation, but not always. Learning a martial art, on the other hand, is learning a consistent and congruent way of moving that is then applied through the techniques. For this to be imparted, there needs to be constant guidance by someone who understands the art, which is far more than the techniques, to ensure that everything is done as the art itself dictates. And that simply can't happen by remote learning, as there is no contact to ensure that the art is being learnt with consistency. Add to that the limited scope of a DVD format, and you tend to have students adding in bits and pieces without having it based on actual knowledge of the art in question, as the student simply doesn't have it.
> 
> I'll put it this way: Learning a martial art is learning a complete approach which then informs everything done within that context. Learning techniques is learning single aspects devoid of the connection to that more complete approach, which get put together in a more random, haphazard fashion. For instance, I have some students with a variety of backgrounds, some TKD, some Karate, some CMA, and so on, some are still training in the other systems, some left those and then came to me, and so on. And some of these students still feel that what they learnt in the other systems is valid, as they feel the "techniques" they learnt there are strong and effective. Unfortunately, what they're doing (bringing in the methods of other arts, or really, bringing in methods that don't fit with the art I'm giving them) means that the art they're supposed to be learning isn't being learnt, and is being weakened (in them), due to the conflicting, or at least incongruent, methods and mechanics. But, left without guidance, they will continue to use the outside methods and techniques, due to a lack of knowledge of why things are done the way they are in our system. By them attending classes, I can correct them, and explain why things are done one way and not another, and in that way ensure that they are genuinely learning the martial art I'm teaching. Without guidance from someone who is watching each moment to ensure that the art is being followed, there is no way that an art is learnt. The best is that you could learn some techniques. Not a martial art.



Very well said.

Reminds me of a moment in my Kenpo days.  I was at a training seminar and there was a black belt (maybe like 3rd or 4th Dan - he had a couple red stripes on his belt) that was going over moves being shown.  The moves were pretty basic, purple belt level or so.  He was fast as heck but when asked by the lead instructor but the purpose of the moves were he didn't have a clue.  Most of us that were standing around him were baffled and appalled that he didn't know such basic concepts.  He didn't seem to be from any of the schools present at the seminar so we weren't quite sure where he was from.

With that being said, you could see how quickly an art could be lost through just one person.  If this guy was to be a teacher his students would only learn the moves and not the art...


----------



## seasoned

As it is with many schools (dojo). In terms of level 1-2-3- techniques, most never get past level 1. Level 1 can be taught from a far, but 2 or 3 needs hands on............., and insight.


----------



## WC_lun

seasoned said:


> As it is with many schools (dojo). In terms of level 1-2-3- techniques, most never get past level 1. Level 1 can be taught from a far, but 2 or 3 needs hands on............., and insight.




I disagree with this.  Level one technique is where you build the base of the system into muscle memory and thought processes.  If that is not done properly, anything built upon that is not reliable, at best.


----------



## DennisBreene

Hi Chris,
Sorry if there was any confusion. I completely agree with you and with your indulgence, I was trying to use your post to lay a foundation for my analogy. Hope that clarifies the situation.

Respectfully,
Dennis Breene


----------



## jasonbrinn

Chris Parker said:


> It's not the easiest thing to put into words, really, and that's a big part of why distance learning doesn't work... but I'll give it a go.
> 
> Firstly, I'd highlight the part of my statement that followed the section you bolded, namely: "Techniques, sure, but not a martial art". In other words, there is quite a distinction between learning a martial art, and learning techniques. Learning techniques means that you learn the sequence of mechanical movements, the actions that make up the technique itself. Depending on how it's taught (via DVD, for instance), there may be aspects of the particular power generation, but not always. Learning a martial art, on the other hand, is learning a consistent and congruent way of moving that is then applied through the techniques. For this to be imparted, there needs to be constant guidance by someone who understands the art, which is far more than the techniques, to ensure that everything is done as the art itself dictates. And that simply can't happen by remote learning, as there is no contact to ensure that the art is being learnt with consistency. Add to that the limited scope of a DVD format, and you tend to have students adding in bits and pieces without having it based on actual knowledge of the art in question, as the student simply doesn't have it.
> 
> I'll put it this way: Learning a martial art is learning a complete approach which then informs everything done within that context. Learning techniques is learning single aspects devoid of the connection to that more complete approach, which get put together in a more random, haphazard fashion. For instance, I have some students with a variety of backgrounds, some TKD, some Karate, some CMA, and so on, some are still training in the other systems, some left those and then came to me, and so on. And some of these students still feel that what they learnt in the other systems is valid, as they feel the "techniques" they learnt there are strong and effective. Unfortunately, what they're doing (bringing in the methods of other arts, or really, bringing in methods that don't fit with the art I'm giving them) means that the art they're supposed to be learning isn't being learnt, and is being weakened (in them), due to the conflicting, or at least incongruent, methods and mechanics. But, left without guidance, they will continue to use the outside methods and techniques, due to a lack of knowledge of why things are done the way they are in our system. By them attending classes, I can correct them, and explain why things are done one way and not another, and in that way ensure that they are genuinely learning the martial art I'm teaching. Without guidance from someone who is watching each moment to ensure that the art is being followed, there is no way that an art is learnt. The best is that you could learn some techniques. Not a martial art.



Thanks Chris.  Very well put actually. While I appreciate your thoughts and the thoughts of everyone else of similar opinions (and there were some GREAT analogies throughout) I disagree with most of the disagreements on premise from the start.

I understand that there are definitely aspects of training that require a partner to train, however, I have yet to find any material that can not be delivered for practice via long distance methods.  Would someone do better with face-to-face instruction?  Most likely.  Would someone learn faster face-to-face?  Possibly.  I think these things rely more on learning styles, which could be handled with the method of delivery more than relenting to the students face-to-face preference.

With all of this said, I believe that the answer is YES and YES;

1.  Is the best form of instruction face-to-face?  YES.

2.  Is it possible to quality learn via long distance training?  YES.


Just my opinion (from personal experience),


Jason Brinn


----------



## WC_lun

Jason, with all due respect, fighting is not about the movements or techniques performed by themselves.  They are about a codified way of training the body and mind to work a certain way when confronted by another human being intent on violence.  Performing techiniques in air does next to nothing to address the issues of force, timing, distance, adrenaline, etc that are neccesary to learning self defense.  Fighting is not a single person activity and therefore cannot be trained effectively as a solo activity. 

Granted, the movements can help a person learn the basic body mechanics, but not if there is no experienced input to correct mistakes.  A beginner cannot learn martial arts from media and solo training.  I do think an experienced martial artist can gain a lot from media training, but only if they have a solid understanding of the basics of the system represented. If the goal of training is just excercise or something of that sort, then solo training would benefit a person.  However, I would think an excercise or dance routine would be more effecient and effective.


----------



## Chris Parker

jasonbrinn said:


> Thanks Chris.  Very well put actually. While I appreciate your thoughts and the thoughts of everyone else of similar opinions (and there were some GREAT analogies throughout) I disagree with most of the disagreements on premise from the start.



Hmm, are you saying that you're disagreeing with what I'm saying, not based on what I've said (which was answering your question), but because you disagree with the premise in the first place? Not really sure why you asked me for my take, then.... 



jasonbrinn said:


> I understand that there are definitely aspects of training that require a partner to train, however, I have yet to find any material that can not be delivered for practice via long distance methods.  Would someone do better with face-to-face instruction?  Most likely.  Would someone learn faster face-to-face?  Possibly.  I think these things rely more on learning styles, which could be handled with the method of delivery more than relenting to the students face-to-face preference.
> 
> With all of this said, I believe that the answer is YES and YES;
> 
> 1.  Is the best form of instruction face-to-face?  YES.
> 
> 2.  Is it possible to quality learn via long distance training?  YES.
> 
> 
> Just my opinion (from personal experience),
> 
> 
> Jason Brinn



Honestly, the fact that you're talking about "aspects of training", "needing a partner" etc tells me that you're only looking at the "technique" side of things. In other words, not a martial art. Really, techniques have a chance to be learnt this way, but not martial arts. And that's also from experience.


----------



## MJS

jasonbrinn said:


> Thanks Chris.  Very well put actually. While I appreciate your thoughts and the thoughts of everyone else of similar opinions (and there were some GREAT analogies throughout) I disagree with most of the disagreements on premise from the start.
> 
> I understand that there are definitely aspects of training that require a partner to train, however, *I have yet to find any material that can not be delivered for practice via long distance methods.*  Would someone do better with face-to-face instruction?  Most likely.  Would someone learn faster face-to-face?  Possibly.  I think these things rely more on learning styles, which could be handled with the method of delivery more than relenting to the students face-to-face preference.
> 
> With all of this said, I believe that the answer is YES and YES;
> 
> 1.  Is the best form of instruction face-to-face?  YES.
> 
> 2.  Is it possible to quality learn via long distance training?  YES.
> 
> 
> Just my opinion (from personal experience),
> 
> 
> Jason Brinn



You are correct, and distance learning is fine, as long as the person understands and accepts the fact that what they learn, will be sub-par at best.  If someone is OK with that, then fine.


----------



## James Kovacich

DennisBreene said:


> How would you react if a surgeon told you he had read all the books, watched all the DVDs and practiced diligently on a dummy at home, and now proposed to do bypass surgery on you. The absurdity is obvious.  The science and art of medicine takes years of training under people with vastly superior skills than one's initial abilities. Much of the art of medicine is learned at the side of mentors who have the experience and insight to know when a certain technique is the correct choice for a given situation and when it may be fatal in an apparantly identical situation.  That differance between technique and art is the same in MA.  Books, DVDs etc. may be excellent adjunctive materials.  They do not substitute for actual hands on training, and as the more complex builds from a strong foundation in the basics, the greater the risk of serious short and long term injury you face.
> Please heed the advise of the many experienced practitioners who have written here and don't be a dilatant.  Either find a way to train properly or find another form of physical fitness that will serve you without the risks you face in MA.
> With all hope that you find a path that works for you.
> Dennis



(Playing devils advocate here)
 What if you were in an "outback" wilderness situation and that same "home-trained" surgeon was "all you had" to save your life "or die?" Would you choose death? Please don't say that's differant. We are using your analagy. 

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## ballen0351

I just don't get why people get so wrapped up around the my martial arts taught by a person is better then your martial arts taught by a TV screen.  Who cares?  Its not like were walking around every day having death matches on the street corner. You wanna learn something go learn it.  You wanna learn from a book have fun you want to learn from a person have fun.  But to say oh you will never really know it is just silly what makes you think your better then anyone else.  At the same time I don't get why people come to martial arts forums looking for approval about their plan to home study.  If you want to do it then go do why do you care what we think?  Hell half the people on this site could be 14 year old kids for all you know and you care what we think?


----------



## MJS

ballen0351 said:


> I just don't get why people get so wrapped up around the my martial arts taught by a person is better then your martial arts taught by a TV screen.  Who cares?  Its not like were walking around every day having death matches on the street corner. You wanna learn something go learn it.  You wanna learn from a book have fun you want to learn from a person have fun.  But to say oh you will never really know it is just silly what makes you think your better then anyone else.  At the same time I don't get why people come to martial arts forums looking for approval about their plan to home study.  If you want to do it then go do why do you care what we think?  Hell half the people on this site could be 14 year old kids for all you know and you care what we think?



Well, you're right.  I don't know why people ask for approval either.  Hell, a simple search on this forum, will no doubt, show numerous threads about home study.  Frankly, if thats what they want to do, go ahead.  I know what I do, and yes, it is better than learning from a book or dvd.  I guess some are just more passionate about their training than others.  Oh well....


----------



## Xue Sheng

jasonbrinn said:


> 2.  Is it possible to quality learn via long distance training?  YES.
> 
> 
> Just my opinion (from personal experience),
> 
> 
> Jason Brinn



So when you did your distance learning what did you use to judge, or who told you it was "quality"? 

Did someone check you and how did they do that?


----------



## ballen0351

Xue Sheng said:


> So when you did your distance learning what did you use to judge, or who told you it was "quality"?
> 
> Did someone check you and how did they do that?


 Why does it matter?  If the person is enjoying it what makes that less "quality" then going to a school?
 I guess Im just trying to understand the "your way is crap my teacher is awsome" attitude.  Ive seen some pretty crappy teachers before so its not always the better way.


----------



## Dirty Dog

ballen0351 said:


> Why does it matter?  If the person is enjoying it what makes that less "quality" then going to a school?
> I guess Im just trying to understand the "your way is crap my teacher is awsome" attitude.  Ive seen some pretty crappy teachers before so its not always the better way.



If you're training just for the enjoyment of it, then books/video/youtube learning makes some sense. 
If you have goals other than simply having a good time, then feedback is important.
One simple reason for quality instructions: injuries.
Injuries happen to pretty much all martial artists at one time or another. Improperly performed techniques increase the chances of injuries.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ballen0351 said:


> Why does it matter?  If the person is enjoying it what makes that less "quality" then going to a school?
> I guess Im just trying to understand the "your way is crap my teacher is awsome" attitude.  Ive seen some pretty crappy teachers before so its not always the better way.



You read one heck of a lot into my post that was not there...it was a question, to Jason not ballen0351, in an attempt to understand where he is coming from as it applies to "quality" and "Distance leaning".

Now for the record I have been in MA for damn close to 40 years and I have had my share of bad teachers too, although I am not sure what any of that has to do with my question to jason. I also am not an opponant of distance learning since I feel that there is way to much going on in an MA to learn without a teacher.


----------



## ballen0351

Xue Sheng said:


> You read one heck of a lot into my post that was not there...it was a question, to Jason not ballen0351, in an attempt to understand where he is coming from as it applies to "quality" and "Distance leaning".
> 
> Now for the record I have been in MA for damn close to 40 years and I have had my share of bad teachers too, although I am not sure what any of that has to do with my question to jason. I also am not an opponant of distance learning since I feel that there is way to much going on in an MA to learn without a teacher.



I didnt read anything into your post I asked you why it matters?  What does it matter who says what he learned was quality?  As if to say well  as long as some other live person said its quality then its OK.  But if only he thinks its quality his opinion does not matter.  

The bad teacher comment was to show just because you have a live teacher it does not automatically equal quality instruction.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ballen0351 said:


> I didnt read anything into your post I asked you why it matters?  What does it matter who says what he learned was quality?  As if to say well  as long as some other live person said its quality then its OK.  But if only he thinks its quality his opinion does not matter.
> 
> The bad teacher comment was to show just because you have a live teacher it does not automatically equal quality instruction.



He said he had experience and now I await Jason&#8217;s answer should he decide to give me one


----------



## ballen0351

Dirty Dog said:


> If you're training just for the enjoyment of it, then books/video/youtube learning makes some sense.
> If you have goals other than simply having a good time, then feedback is important.
> One simple reason for quality instructions: injuries.
> Injuries happen to pretty much all martial artists at one time or another. Improperly performed techniques increase the chances of injuries.



That's a good point I guess it depends on your goals for martial arts but even still its not like there is one set of rules for every style.  Even with in an organization you can see large differences in skill levels between different schools in that same organization some better then others.  So say we both learn Goju.  You go to a traditional dojo and I use you tube clips and DVDs from Higaonna Sensei.  We met at a seminar and I'm wearing the same rank as you but your better then me does it  matter?  Or I'm better then other students that go to a school my kata is crisper or looks better does it matter?  
Now on flip side if I decided I want to be a professional fighter then yeah I need to go find a good teacher and good training partners.  So I guess it depends on your reason for wanting to learn in the end. 
As for injuries well like you said that can happen with or without a teacher so I'm not sure your more likely to be injured without one then with one but who knows.  I've been injured more training with new people then I ever have with experienced people so you may be right.


----------



## ballen0351

Xue Sheng said:


> He said he had experience and now I await Jason&#8217;s answer should he decide to give me one


And I was asking for your opinion should you choose to answer.  Why does it matter if someone else said he learned quality martial arts or if its his opinion and his alone?


----------



## Xue Sheng

ballen0351 said:


> And I was asking for your opinion should you choose to answer.  Why does it matter if someone else said he learned quality martial arts or if its his opinion and his alone?



Are you jason or do you speak for him?

I can tell you I am a great grand soke master of any art you desire.... but it is from me with no verification. I can tell you that I learned Ti Kwan Leep by distance learning and it is quality..... by what do I set that standard. I can tell you the car I am trying to sell you is an A#1 used car..... how do I know that, where to I get that from....

He says it can be quality based on his experience, what is that experience and how does he qualify it as quality.

Now I am pretty much done here other than my wondering how, by what scale, does jason labels it quality.


----------



## ballen0351

Xue Sheng said:


> Are you jason or do you speak for him?
> 
> I can tell you I am a great grand soke master of any art you desire.... but it is from me with no verification. I can tell you that I learned Ti Kwan Leep by distance learning and it is quality..... by what do I set that standard.
> 
> He says it can be quality based on his experience, what is that experience and how does he qualify it as quality.
> 
> Now I am pretty much done here other than my wondering how, by what scale, does jason labels it quality.



Nope I don't even know jason I'm just asking u your opinion if you only want to talk to jason and nobody else send him a PM otherwise this is a open thread anyone can ask anything they want.

I also don't disagree with you I to go to a live teacher because I enjoy it I like the interaction and the tine to just focus on that one thing at that time without distraction.  I just don't understand the attitude towards people that want to do things there way.  In my opinion online schools are the way of the future and as martial artist we need to figure out a better way to do it or there will be nothing but crap out there.  So instead of always fighting change we may need to embrace it and find a way to do it better.  There are kids growing up now that have never been without a computer or internet its part of them as they become adults we need to adjust or go the way of the dinosaur


----------



## Dirty Dog

ballen0351 said:


> That's a good point I guess it depends on your goals for martial arts but even still its not like there is one set of rules for every style.  Even with in an organization you can see large differences in skill levels between different schools in that same organization some better then others.  So say we both learn Goju.  You go to a traditional dojo and I use you tube clips and DVDs from Higaonna Sensei.  We met at a seminar and I'm wearing the same rank as you but your better then me does it  matter?  Or I'm better then other students that go to a school my kata is crisper or looks better does it matter?



I would say that it obviously matters, or you wouldn't be training in a specific art, nor would you be attending seminars. The purpose of training is to either learn something new or become better at something we already know. I don't know of anybody who trains to get worse, or even to maintain the status quo. Getting better at a specific art requires at least some degree of feedback.
If it didn't matter, you probably wouldn't be at the seminar. You'd be waiting for the cliff notes version to appear on YouTube.



ballen0351 said:


> Now on flip side if I decided I want to be a professional fighter then yeah I need to go find a good teacher and good training partners.  So I guess it depends on your reason for wanting to learn in the end.
> As for injuries well like you said that can happen with or without a teacher so I'm not sure your more likely to be injured without one then with one but who knows.  I've been injured more training with new people then I ever have with experienced people so you may be right.



If you've learned a technique incorrectly, you can injure yourself badly. Feedback from a qualified instructor helps to minimize this risk.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against the use of books/videos/osmosis/Vulcan Mind Melding to learn. I've written two books and am working on a third which are specifically intended to help students with their training. But they are a supplement to classroom training. Not a replacement.

I can easily explain to someone, in text or by video, how to perform a retrograde intubation or insert a chest tube. But I really wouldn't want someone with only that training performing the procedure on someone whose survival matters to me.
A textbook is a fine way to study pharmacology. But for some things, there is absolutely no replacement for hands-on training.


----------



## WC_lun

ballen0351 said:


> I just don't get why people get so wrapped up around the my martial arts taught by a person is better then your martial arts taught by a TV screen.  Who cares?  Its not like were walking around every day having death matches on the street corner. You wanna learn something go learn it.  You wanna learn from a book have fun you want to learn from a person have fun.  But to say oh you will never really know it is just silly what makes you think your better then anyone else.  At the same time I don't get why people come to martial arts forums looking for approval about their plan to home study.  If you want to do it then go do why do you care what we think?  Hell half the people on this site could be 14 year old kids for all you know and you care what we think?



It only matters if self defense training is your goal.  If you believe you are trained to defnd yourself, but cannot if the situation requires it, then it matters even more.  Otherwise the fantasy doesn't mean much either way.


----------



## James Kovacich

http://www.jeanjacquesmachado.com/onlinetraining/press

 

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Xue Sheng

ballen0351 said:


> Nope I don't even know jason I'm just asking u your opinion if you only want to talk to jason and nobody else send him a PM otherwise this is a open thread anyone can ask anything they want.
> 
> I also don't disagree with you I to go to a live teacher because I enjoy it I like the interaction and the tine to just focus on that one thing at that time without distraction.  I just don't understand the attitude towards people that want to do things there way.  In my opinion online schools are the way of the future and as martial artist we need to figure out a better way to do it or there will be nothing but crap out there.  So instead of always fighting change we may need to embrace it and find a way to do it better.  There are kids growing up now that have never been without a computer or internet its part of them as they become adults we need to adjust or go the way of the dinosaur



Did I sufficiently answer your question?

And after almost 40 years I'm already a Martial Arts Dinosaur... it took a while, but I am OK with that now... I won't make it easier or simpler or less painful to train it so.... I am pretty much a dinosaur already..... online training for am MA or via DVD without a teacher...if that is where we are going.... it will only get more wattered down and worse the more of us that cave in to it.

Is this type of learning possible...well it may surprisemany that I think it is.... but only for a person who is INCREDIBLY observantwith great attention to detail who is INCREDIBLY dedicated and there are very few of those... in 40 years Ihave known 1..maybe 2... I am not entirely sure of the second one but both had a whole lot of MA training with teachers prior to thier path of DVD training. OK it was VHS training....what can I say...I'm old and knew them both 20 years ago.


----------



## ballen0351

WC_lun said:


> It only matters if self defense training is your goal.  If you believe you are trained to defnd yourself, but cannot if the situation requires it, then it matters even more.  Otherwise the fantasy doesn't mean much either way.


I agree with that but your saying I can't learn to defend myself without a live teacher?  Because I've seen people with no trading at all fight off attackers to defend themselves.  I talked to a woman just 2 weeks ago at work someone tried to rape her.  She remembered something she saw on dateline was able to fight him off and get a DNA sample I won't tell you from where but he's prob not walking real well.


----------



## ballen0351

Xue Sheng said:


> Did I sufficiently answer your question?



No but you did show me you know how to change the font size


----------



## Xue Sheng

ballen0351 said:


> No but you did show me you know how to change the font size



then let me repeat myself

_I can tell you I am a great grand soke master of any art you desire.... but it is from me with no verification. I can tell you that I learned Ti Kwan Leep by distance learning and it is quality..... by what do I set that standard.

He says it can be quality based on his experience, what is that experience and how does he qualify it as quality_.

I can do bold, italic and underline too as well as change the color.... that font size ok for you..... I am using the MT standard actually


----------



## WC_lun

ballen0351 said:


> I agree with that but your saying I can't learn to defend myself without a live teacher?  Because I've seen people with no trading at all fight off attackers to defend themselves.  I talked to a woman just 2 weeks ago at work someone tried to rape her.  She remembered something she saw on dateline was able to fight him off and get a DNA sample I won't tell you from where but he's prob not walking real well.



That is exactly what I am saying.  That doesn't mean you won't be able to defend yourself with your natural abilities, but no, you will not learn to defend yourself from Youtube, dvds, or a book.  In fact, placing your trust in such learning could be more dangerous than not trying to learn anything at all.  In my mind, relying on natural reactions is a heckuva lot more effective than relying on crap training that will have you doing the worst things you can do in a given situation.


----------



## James Kovacich

(ADDING FUEL TO THE FIRE) The never to agree-back and forth conversation would end if those that say its impossible would just say that they themselves are not capable of learning from video.  

Personally its easier to admit my weakness than point out yours. 
Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog

James Kovacich said:


> (ADDING FUEL TO THE FIRE) The never to agree-back and forth conversation would end if those that say its impossible would just say that they themselves are not capable of learning from video.
> 
> Personally its easier to admit my weakness than point out yours.
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk



Ah, well, that's simple then. All you need to do is provide us with an example of someone learning a traditional martial art by reading books or watching videos, without real live instruction.

I don't think anybody will accept Ashida Kim or Choson Ninja as valid examples...


----------



## James Kovacich

I dont have to prove anything. Saying it cant be done is not proof," I,ve stated my position early on and if you read the thread you read my position on video training. 

Now my position on "someone who does not know me "saying flat out I can't do it, I say B S.  That was my point. Everyone is stating "their beleifs" 
But no one has proved anything. Anyone can say anything on the net. That does not make it fact or proof.

For the record, I know people with legitimate high rank who have video courses but also use the "hands on" method because they some people will attend anywhere from once to several times a year. In addition they will connect you with instructors and or other students closer to them. 

Its the approach that will make it work or fail.
Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog

James Kovacich said:


> I dont have to prove anything. Saying it cant be done is not proof," I,ve stated my position early on and if you read the thread you read my position on video training.



Well duh. It's impossible to prove a negative, after all. The burden of proof is on the person making a positive assertion.



James Kovacich said:


> For the record, I know people with legitimate high rank who have video courses



Did they earn this legitimate high rank by reading books and watching videos, without live instruction? If not, then your statement is really irrelevant



James Kovacich said:


> but also use the "hands on" method because they some people will attend anywhere from once to several times a year. In addition they will connect you with instructors and or other students closer to them.
> 
> Its the approach that will make it work or fail.
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk



In other words, they use books/videos/Vulcan Mind Melding as a supplement to real training. I don't believe anybody has said they don't serve as useful purpose as supplemental information sources. So what exactly are you disagreeing with?


----------



## James Kovacich

My only point was nobody can claim whether or not someone can accomplish a physical feat without knowing the other persons physical abilities, which in this case, nobody can. I find it far reaching for person A to say person B can't physically do something without physicically knowing person B.

The people I referred have training camps and that's the method that works best. That's what I meant by "hands on" and I wasn't meaning to be confusing anyone.



Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## DennisBreene

No, I think the challenge is somewhat valid. In the medical scenario; the choice is death and almost certain death (via surgery). I would choose almost certain death.  Martial arts training under that scenario is unlikely to produce death but I think we'd agree that it is more likely to produce injury than with a qualified instructor.  If you have absolutely no other avenue but training via videos and references and you are that passionate, I'd say try it but be aware of the risks. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to have someone like James to exchange e-mails with and at least get some advice as you train. 



James Kovacich said:


> (Playing devils advocate here)
> What if you were in an "outback" wilderness situation and that same "home-trained" surgeon was "all you had" to save your life "or die?" Would you choose death? Please don't say that's differant. We are using your analagy.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## jasonbrinn

Xue Sheng said:


> So when you did your distance learning what did you use to judge, or who told you it was "quality"?
> 
> Did someone check you and how did they do that?



Great question (although you always ask great questions Xue).  Sorry for the delay but my two daughters, 3 & 2, developed the croupe and it was a not-so-fun week.

There are many different ways that I "check" for quality when reviewing, studying and producing distance learning material.  I will give you my set but I bet there are more and even better ones that I have not found as of yet.

*How to check the Quality of a Distance Learning Course*

1.  Does the teacher know what they are teaching?  Now this question is different to different people.  For some the question is answered by rank, others association, still others by the accomplishments of the students they turn out and lastly there is the "does what they teach work in a fight" consideration.  I personally care more about the "does it work in a fight" consideration so I will generally take a few lessons and then try the material out with my friends in some "honest exchanges."

2.  Is the Instructor of the material available for followup, preferably face-to-face?  This ranks high for me, but not as critical as the "does it work in a fight."

3.  How good is the production work in showing the necessary material?  It ain't going to help if you can't understand what is going on most of the time.  this just comes down to production quality really and unfortunately you normally have to stick a toe in the water to get this one.  However, this is another good point - any program worth it's salt would give you a free trial of the material in order to judge this.

4.  Does the instructor give up the goods in the course?  This is much harder to judge, especially if you are new to the material.  I have never taken a course via distance where I did not have some personal exposure to the material first.  This is my hurdle I put in place since I teach others but it doesn't have to exist for others.  I think this question can be answered by judging the instructors students and viewing other instructors to see if what your teacher is sharing is normal, incredible, or below basics.


Take the Gracie University courses for example;

IMO they get the check marks YES right down the line.

YES - Knowledge of Instructors
YES - Ranked
YES - Accomplishments of Students
YES - Work in a Fight
YES - Followup with Instructors via distance
YES - Followup with Instructors face-to-face
YES - Production Value
YES - Top level concepts/techniques in materials taught


----------



## MJS

jasonbrinn said:


> Great question (although you always ask great questions Xue).  Sorry for the delay but my two daughters, 3 & 2, developed the croupe and it was a not-so-fun week.



Well that sucks.  Hopefully they're feeling better. 



> There are many different ways that I "check" for quality when reviewing, studying and producing distance learning material.  I will give you my set but I bet there are more and even better ones that I have not found as of yet.
> 
> *How to check the Quality of a Distance Learning Course*
> 
> 1.  Does the teacher know what they are teaching?  Now this question is different to different people.  For some the question is answered by rank, others association, still others by the accomplishments of the students they turn out and lastly there is the "does what they teach work in a fight" consideration.  I personally care more about the "does it work in a fight" consideration so I will generally take a few lessons and then try the material out with my friends in some "honest exchanges."
> 
> 2.  Is the Instructor of the material available for followup, preferably face-to-face?  This ranks high for me, but not as critical as the "does it work in a fight."
> 
> 3.  How good is the production work in showing the necessary material?  It ain't going to help if you can't understand what is going on most of the time.  this just comes down to production quality really and unfortunately you normally have to stick a toe in the water to get this one.  However, this is another good point - any program worth it's salt would give you a free trial of the material in order to judge this.
> 
> 4.  Does the instructor give up the goods in the course?  This is much harder to judge, especially if you are new to the material.  I have never taken a course via distance where I did not have some personal exposure to the material first.  This is my hurdle I put in place since I teach others but it doesn't have to exist for others.  I think this question can be answered by judging the instructors students and viewing other instructors to see if what your teacher is sharing is normal, incredible, or below basics.
> 
> 
> Take the Gracie University courses for example;
> 
> IMO they get the check marks YES right down the line.
> 
> YES - Knowledge of Instructors
> YES - Ranked
> YES - Accomplishments of Students
> YES - Work in a Fight
> YES - Followup with Instructors via distance
> YES - Followup with Instructors face-to-face
> YES - Production Value
> YES - Top level concepts/techniques in materials taught



1) The dvds that I've seen have had teachers who knew what they were doing.  Folks such as Larry Tatum, Renzo Gracie, Royce and Rorion.  I suppose a follow up to this would be: Is the student going to know what they're doing?

2) I'd like to think that if they're going to be getting paid, yes, most likely many would be available.  If not them directly, then I'd imagine one of their top students would be.  A follow up to this would be: Is the student willing to shell out the cash to fly to the teachers location?  Will there be an additional cost for the student to actually have access to the teacher? 

3) I agree with this.  However, if the material is foreign to the student, the dvd could be the best production around, but if the student is lost, its not going to matter.  Ex: A seasoned MAist should be able to pick up a dvd and grasp at least 50%, if not more, even if its an art they don't study.  However, despite prior exp., it still doesnt mean the viewer will be any good.

4) Can you define "give up the goods" please?


----------



## jasonbrinn

MJS said:


> 4) Can you define "give up the goods" please?



Yes and thank you.  

What I mean by "give up the goods" is just that there are a lot, A LOT, of DVDs and courses that rehash, recirculate materials found ANYWHERE including youtube, etc.  Also, MANY courses and DVDs teach the absolute minimum that they would teach anywhere to anyone.

I have around 500+ instructional DVDs.  I started young with Panther and every instance for gifts this is what I asked for.  I then became friends with Mr. Moody of www.goldstarvideo.com and traded with him and got a lot more videos.  I can tell you after having watched ALL of the DVDs that I have 98% of them show the same things and the absolute basics.  Now, maybe those instructors did that for a couple of reasons; maybe that was all they knew, or maybe they thought that was all that should be taught via DVD.  However, it seems some of them taught things that kept the buyers of their products "paced."

For instance; One of my favorite BJJ DVD series is by Demian Maia's Science of Jiu-Jitsu, http://www.groundfighter.com/Demian-Maia-Science-of-Jiu-Jitsu-Instructional-DVDs/.  This is incredible material that just isn't taught most places even inside BJJ schools.  

I have trained for over 14 years in BJJ and my last instructor taught a "beginner" move that I had never been taught before.  When I asked him why he taught this and why I had never seen it before he just told me that it was "the good jiujitsu" and "a secret most people don't teach."  Now the move is basic, maybe so basic it gets forgotten, but for whatever reason it is missing from all other DVDs and Books that I have on the subject.  This one move has propelled his BJJ school to top results in all of the competitions (IMO).

Simply, some instructors use their DVDs and Courses via Distance as more of a Marketing Tool and save the "good stuff" for private seminars and students face-to-face.


----------



## Chris Parker

jasonbrinn said:


> Great question (although you always ask great questions Xue).  Sorry for the delay but my two daughters, 3 & 2, developed the croupe and it was a not-so-fun week.
> 
> There are many different ways that I "check" for quality when reviewing, studying and producing distance learning material.  I will give you my set but I bet there are more and even better ones that I have not found as of yet.
> 
> *How to check the Quality of a Distance Learning Course*
> 
> 1.  Does the teacher know what they are teaching?  Now this question is different to different people.  For some the question is answered by rank, others association, still others by the accomplishments of the students they turn out and lastly there is the "does what they teach work in a fight" consideration.  I personally care more about the "does it work in a fight" consideration so I will generally take a few lessons and then try the material out with my friends in some "honest exchanges."
> 
> 2.  Is the Instructor of the material available for followup, preferably face-to-face?  This ranks high for me, but not as critical as the "does it work in a fight."
> 
> 3.  How good is the production work in showing the necessary material?  It ain't going to help if you can't understand what is going on most of the time.  this just comes down to production quality really and unfortunately you normally have to stick a toe in the water to get this one.  However, this is another good point - any program worth it's salt would give you a free trial of the material in order to judge this.
> 
> 4.  Does the instructor give up the goods in the course?  This is much harder to judge, especially if you are new to the material.  I have never taken a course via distance where I did not have some personal exposure to the material first.  This is my hurdle I put in place since I teach others but it doesn't have to exist for others.  I think this question can be answered by judging the instructors students and viewing other instructors to see if what your teacher is sharing is normal, incredible, or below basics.
> 
> 
> Take the Gracie University courses for example;
> 
> IMO they get the check marks YES right down the line.
> 
> YES - Knowledge of Instructors
> YES - Ranked
> YES - Accomplishments of Students
> YES - Work in a Fight
> YES - Followup with Instructors via distance
> YES - Followup with Instructors face-to-face
> YES - Production Value
> YES - Top level concepts/techniques in materials taught




Hmm. I might be wrong, but the way I read Xue's question was that he was asking not how you could tell the course was quality, but how you could tell your results were quality. I'm not going to address the methods you used here (although I will say that they again show an ideal of learning "techniques", not a martial art here again), but I would be interested in hearing how you knew that the results you were getting were quality.


----------



## ballen0351

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. I might be wrong, but the way I read Xue's question was that he was asking not how you could tell the course was quality, but how you could tell your results were quality. I'm not going to address the methods you used here (although I will say that they again show an ideal of learning "techniques", not a martial art here again), but I would be interested in hearing how you knew that the results you were getting were quality.



I would think if someone's looking to a DVD course then all they are concerned about are the techniques anyway.  You say that like its a bad thing or its wrong.  People want different things out of martial arts.  Many could care less about traditions or the reasons behind certain techniques they just want to learn what they see.

People say oh DVDs are crap and your not learning anything so why not as martial artist see the need for a better way for people to learn from home instead of always just putting it down.  For some there may be few if any other choices.   I was working permanent 4 pm to midnight Tuesday thru sat.  I only had sun and Mon off.  Nobody around here offered classes during the day and my wife and kids would freak out if I left on Mondays to go to a class.  I considered DVD training but I was able to find someone to train me in the early afternoon but I also drive and hour and half each way to get to him.  For some that's not an option.  In today's world of kids who have lived there whole lives with internet we need to come up with something other then "DVDs are crap". I've done entire police training scenarios with shoot don't shoot and driving on computers so its possible.  There are game systems now that watch your body movement's to control the game play.  The technology is out there.


----------



## Cyriacus

ballen0351 said:


> I would think if someone's looking to a DVD course then all they are concerned about are the techniques anyway.  You say that like its a bad thing or its wrong.  People want different things out of martial arts.  Many could care less about traditions or the reasons behind certain techniques they just want to learn what they see.
> 
> People say oh DVDs are crap and your not learning anything so why not as martial artist see the need for a better way for people to learn from home instead of always just putting it down.  For some there may be few if any other choices.   I was working permanent 4 pm to midnight Tuesday thru sat.  I only had sun and Mon off.  Nobody around here offered classes during the day and my wife and kids would freak out if I left on Mondays to go to a class.  I considered DVD training but I was able to find someone to train me in the early afternoon but I also drive and hour and half each way to get to him.  For some that's not an option.  In today's world of kids who have lived there whole lives with internet we need to come up with something other then "DVDs are crap". I've done entire police training scenarios with shoot don't shoot and driving on computers so its possible.  There are game systems now that watch your body movement's to control the game play.  The technology is out there.



Id say the main flaw is the lack of someone there to show You when Youre doing something wrong, even when it appears right to You.
Im personally of the opinion that DVDs/Videos can be... Interesting, if Youre already a Martial Artist, or just a Trained Fighter (Competitive). But for someone with no experience to pick one up, it wont amount to near as much. Thats not so much an insult to DVD learning, but just a bit of reasoning.
A Martial Artist could find some other way of applying what They already have, and a Competitive Fighter might get a new tactic. But an inexperienced individual will get movements which They will try to reproduce.

...Is that better than DVDs are crap?


----------



## WC_lun

Whether you have a choice or not in training from DVD's does not effect how well training is from a DvD.  I know some people that is thier only choice and I feel for them, I really do.  That doesn't make the option of training from DVD's a good one.


----------



## jasonbrinn

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. I might be wrong, but the way I read Xue's question was that he was asking not how you could tell the course was quality, but how you could tell your results were quality. I'm not going to address the methods you used here (although I will say that they again show an ideal of learning "techniques", not a martial art here again), but I would be interested in hearing how you knew that the results you were getting were quality.



Great question Chris, maybe I did miss that.

I always test my training (face-to-face or distance learning) results with combat.  The combat is not generic either, I take the whole process very scientifically and stick to what the data shows.  After I have compiled something I believe to be "functional & efficient" I implement it into training appropriately.  This has been my process for 20+ years.  I go out and train, spar and fight with people from every school that will have me and have done this for 20+ years.

Now, the people I have taught the methods have done VERY well in the different arenas they have applied the training to from the military, police, MMA, sport, etc.  I have had other acclaimed instructors review the material and give their stamp of approval, some even asking to have parts implemented into their own curriculum. 

These and more have lead me to the belief that are results were quality results.



Thanks for asking,


Jason Brinn


----------



## ballen0351

WC_lun said:


> Whether you have a choice or not in training from DVD's does not effect how well training is from a DvD.  I know some people that is thier only choice and I feel for them, I really do.  That doesn't make the option of training from DVD's a good one.



I'm not saying its as good or better then a real teacher but in my opinion the technology is here where someone could create a half way decent online/DVD training system that's better then nothing.


----------



## jasonbrinn

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not saying its as good or better then a real teacher but in my opinion the technology is here where someone could create a half way decent online/DVD training system that's better then nothing.



I totally agree with this and will even go a step further.  I think with good realistic training a distance learning course can truly boost one's training and cut the learning curve down considerably.  

Example:  I have mentioned training BJJ.  Well in BJJ some instructors favor some things.  Most instructors in BJJ don't have a written curriculum either.  I have personal experience with high ranking BJJ instructors not teaching a critical point.  This was done for many good reasons.  When one is learning something to start you give them the general points and then spend time as they "grow into the technique" teaching the finer points.  The problem here is that without a curriculum sometimes coming back around to teach the finer points does not happen or at least doesn't happen in step with the student's progression.  I have also known high ranking BJJ instructors to see a DVD and say, "Oh yeah, I remember that move now we did that a long time ago."  

We are all people and we all forget, even Grand Masters forget.  DVDs are great for cataloging concepts, training and techniques.  A great reference tool at the very least.

"When you are not the lead dog, the view never changes."  A favorite quote of mine.  DVDs also give good perspective.  You might have the greatest teacher in the world but not know it until you see some incredible Master on a DVD showing your basics the wrong way (and vice-versa).  Training with others and viewing others training is a great tool to keep us all honest and the community improving.

Since I am old I can say that "back in the day" you had to trust your instructors word solely because Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet and getting VCR tapes took forever!  Now, you can get more perspective and information to make better more informed decisions and a community set on this kind of path can only improve IMO.


Just my opinion,

Jason Brinn


----------



## James Kovacich

DennisBreene said:


> No, I think the challenge is somewhat valid. In the medical scenario; the choice is death and almost certain death (via surgery). I would choose almost certain death.  Martial arts training under that scenario is unlikely to produce death but I think we'd agree that it is more likely to produce injury than with a qualified instructor.  If you have absolutely no other avenue but training via videos and references and you are that passionate, I'd say try it but be aware of the risks. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to have someone like James to exchange e-mails with and at least get some advice as you train.



I mentioned early on the thread that I tried a similar manner of teaching and was not happy with the results. The emails may work with an experienced student though. I did also mention that the original poster (claimed to be a Kenpo purple belt) should look into Jeff Speakmans dvds. He has pretty good quality control over his program. Can video test to purple belt. From blue belt up, testing is in person. And I know for a fact that he produces top notch students.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## MJS

ballen0351 said:


> I agree with that but your saying I can't learn to defend myself without a live teacher?  Because I've seen people with no trading at all fight off attackers to defend themselves.  I talked to a woman just 2 weeks ago at work someone tried to rape her.  She remembered something she saw on dateline was able to fight him off and get a DNA sample I won't tell you from where but he's prob not walking real well.



You're right....people are most likely capable of throwing a punch and kick, without any formal training.  However, IMHO, if someone wants to improve and fine tune those skills, a live teacher is a must.  People can mimic stuff on youtube, TUF and UFC reruns, and other dvd's, but like I've said, the training will most likely be sub-par and limited to their understanding of what they're watching.  If people are Ok with that, then fine.


----------



## MJS

ballen0351 said:


> I would think if someone's looking to a DVD course then all they are concerned about are the techniques anyway.  You say that like its a bad thing or its wrong.  People want different things out of martial arts.  Many could care less about traditions or the reasons behind certain techniques they just want to learn what they see.



Sure, nothing wrong with that, if they want to be technique collectors.  Of course, like I told Zenjael, who seems to also be a technique collector, its not the techs that matter.  People can know a million techs. but if they dont understand them, if they can't make them work, then whats the use?



> People say oh DVDs are crap and your not learning anything so why not as martial artist see the need for a better way for people to learn from home instead of always just putting it down.  For some there may be few if any other choices.   I was working permanent 4 pm to midnight Tuesday thru sat.  I only had sun and Mon off.  Nobody around here offered classes during the day and my wife and kids would freak out if I left on Mondays to go to a class.  I considered DVD training but I was able to find someone to train me in the early afternoon but I also drive and hour and half each way to get to him.  For some that's not an option.  In today's world of kids who have lived there whole lives with internet we need to come up with something other then "DVDs are crap". I've done entire police training scenarios with shoot don't shoot and driving on computers so its possible.  There are game systems now that watch your body movement's to control the game play.  The technology is out there.



Out of curiosity, you seem to be a big defender of at home training.  You don't use this method do you?  As for your last paragraph....I too, worked a 4p-12a shift, and yes, it sucked.  Really cut into my training time.  To further mess things up, my days off changed every 3 weeks, so I always had to work around that.  Fortunately, my teachers were accomodating to me and of course, I was greatful.  I was training long before I met my wife, and of course, shared with her, what I do, and she always has been supportive of that.  Of course, likewise, I arranged my training, so that we were able to spend time.  No, I'm sure she wouldn't like me being gone all the time either..lol.  

But still, despite my crazy schedule, I never resorted to dvds.  I'd rather do a 1 on 1 private lesson and pay extra for that, in the event I couldn't make it to class.  I'm fortunate....1 of my teachers, who I train privately with, is very close by, so I do try to train with him a few times a month.  The dojo that I attend on a regular basis is close by as well.  I'm there 3-4 times a week, for a 1hr class.  This hasn't hindered my home life at all.  

In the end, I suppose it all comes down to what people want.  Some are more serious about training than others.  If people want to use a dvd, then fine, it is what it is.  Their training will be limited to the content of the dvd only.  If people are lucky to train at a dojo, then thats great too.  I do think alot of times though, people are looking for the easy way. Instead of making a sacrifice, they take a shortcut.  But again, it is what it is.


----------



## MJS

jasonbrinn said:


> Yes and thank you.
> 
> What I mean by "give up the goods" is just that there are a lot, A LOT, of DVDs and courses that rehash, recirculate materials found ANYWHERE including youtube, etc.  Also, MANY courses and DVDs teach the absolute minimum that they would teach anywhere to anyone.
> 
> I have around 500+ instructional DVDs.  I started young with Panther and every instance for gifts this is what I asked for.  I then became friends with Mr. Moody of www.goldstarvideo.com and traded with him and got a lot more videos.  I can tell you after having watched ALL of the DVDs that I have 98% of them show the same things and the absolute basics.  Now, maybe those instructors did that for a couple of reasons; maybe that was all they knew, or maybe they thought that was all that should be taught via DVD.  However, it seems some of them taught things that kept the buyers of their products "paced."
> 
> For instance; One of my favorite BJJ DVD series is by Demian Maia's Science of Jiu-Jitsu, http://www.groundfighter.com/Demian-Maia-Science-of-Jiu-Jitsu-Instructional-DVDs/.  This is incredible material that just isn't taught most places even inside BJJ schools.
> 
> I have trained for over 14 years in BJJ and my last instructor taught a "beginner" move that I had never been taught before.  When I asked him why he taught this and why I had never seen it before he just told me that it was "the good jiujitsu" and "a secret most people don't teach."  Now the move is basic, maybe so basic it gets forgotten, but for whatever reason it is missing from all other DVDs and Books that I have on the subject.  This one move has propelled his BJJ school to top results in all of the competitions (IMO).
> 
> Simply, some instructors use their DVDs and Courses via Distance as more of a Marketing Tool and save the "good stuff" for private seminars and students face-to-face.



I think Jason, that you're spot on with what you said!  And see, this is probably one of the top reasons why I'm not a dvd fan, other than just for a reference tool.  Now, there's nothing to say that I'd get all the secrets, if I went to the Gracie Academy.  I'm pretty sure, though I may be wrong, that the family has their 'secrets' that they share with just the family.  OTOH, I'm sure there're teachers out there that give it all to their students.  I'd say its a matter of getting lucky to find that teacher.  

In any case, thank you again, for the clarification.   On an off topic note, hope the kids are better.


----------



## ballen0351

MJS said:


> Sure, nothing wrong with that, if they want to be technique collectors.  Of course, like I told Zenjael, who seems to also be a technique collector, its not the techs that matter.  People can know a million techs. but if they dont understand them, if they can't make them work, then whats the use?
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, you seem to be a big defender of at home training.  You don't use this method do you?  As for your last paragraph....I too, worked a 4p-12a shift, and yes, it sucked.  Really cut into my training time.  To further mess things up, my days off changed every 3 weeks, so I always had to work around that.  Fortunately, my teachers were accomodating to me and of course, I was greatful.  I was training long before I met my wife, and of course, shared with her, what I do, and she always has been supportive of that.  Of course, likewise, I arranged my training, so that we were able to spend time.  No, I'm sure she wouldn't like me being gone all the time either..lol.
> 
> But still, despite my crazy schedule, I never resorted to dvds.  I'd rather do a 1 on 1 private lesson and pay extra for that, in the event I couldn't make it to class.  I'm fortunate....1 of my teachers, who I train privately with, is very close by, so I do try to train with him a few times a month.  The dojo that I attend on a regular basis is close by as well.  I'm there 3-4 times a week, for a 1hr class.  This hasn't hindered my home life at all.
> 
> In the end, I suppose it all comes down to what people want.  Some are more serious about training than others.  If people want to use a dvd, then fine, it is what it is.  Their training will be limited to the content of the dvd only.  If people are lucky to train at a dojo, then thats great too.  I do think alot of times though, people are looking for the easy way. Instead of making a sacrifice, they take a shortcut.  But again, it is what it is.



No I've never trained with an at home system.  I don't even own a single martial arts DVD.  I will from time to time use your tube if I forget a certain part of a Kata I was working on in class.  I like going to a class but that's just my personal preference.  I just get sick of this attitude some have that if you don't train the way I did your not a "real" martial artist.  People want to learn for different reasons.  If you want to learn from a DVD or online system I say go do it have fun train hard.  Who am I or any of us to judge.  People come on here and tell someone well your not learning anything and you will never be able to defend yourself.  Well truth is this isn't the wild west anymore I bet most people on this forum have never even been in a real fight.  Its not a knock or put down its just fact most people other then.grade school have never been in a fight as an adult.  Its just they way things are now and that's a good thing.  Don't get me wring I think traditional training in a dojo is better then a DVD I just think people go a little over board with the you will never learn anything your better off just doing nothing then training with a DVD.  Now I also think people that come on here looking for some kind of approval from forum memebers on their master trading plans are just as silly why do you care what we think if you want to go buy DVD and train go do it who cares what we think and save yourself the grief and use the search function there are only 100 other threads like this one


----------



## MJS

ballen0351 said:


> No I've never trained with an at home system.



I didn't think so, just wanted to confirm. 



> I don't even own a single martial arts DVD.  I will from time to time use your tube if I forget a certain part of a Kata I was working on in class.



I have a few, that I use for reference, like you said, in the event I forget something



> I like going to a class but that's just my personal preference.



Ditto! 



> I just get sick of this attitude some have that if you don't train the way I did your not a "real" martial artist.  People want to learn for different reasons.  If you want to learn from a DVD or online system I say go do it have fun train hard.  Who am I or any of us to judge.



Honestly, I never really viewed a dvd learning method as making someone a martial artist, but I suppose they could be.  I view a serious martial artist, as someone who's training under a teacher, learning a system, and putting in the blood, sweat and tears to actually get on the mat and bust your ***.  And yes, we all train for different reasons.  If someone is content with dvd learning, then it is what it is.  As I've said, they're most likely going to be limited to the content of the dvd, but if thats what they want.....

Interestingly enough, at one school that I used to train at, they sold training books that the students could buy, which contained all the material for that rank.  The techs were written out, the katas, etc.  I used to see people test, get their new rank, buy the book, come to class and show me the techs that they learned.  LOL.  Of course, I knew they learned from the book, and half the time, I had to go back and make corrections.  So, it was kinda like taking a step forward and 3 back.  Had they just waited, perhaps they would've had an easier time.



> People come on here and tell someone well your not learning anything and you will never be able to defend yourself.



As I said earlier, to a point, sure, they will be.  Hell, you don't need a dvd for that.  But, IMO, if you really wanna fine tune your stuff, you will need a live teacher.



> Well truth is this isn't the wild west anymore I bet most people on this forum have never even been in a real fight.  Its not a knock or put down its just fact most people other then.grade school have never been in a fight as an adult.



Well, I'll agree and disagree with this.  In some of the larger cities in CT, there's violence on a daily basis, so yes, when I turn on the news and hear about assaults, shootings, stabbings, etc, yeah, the wild west does come to mind..lol.  Aside from the school stuff and when I worked for the DOC, as of late, I've talked my way out of more confrontations than actually fought..lol.  Amazing how far some simple common sense and awareness goes. 



> Its just they way things are now and that's a good thing.  Don't get me wring I think traditional training in a dojo is better then a DVD I just think people go a little over board with the you will never learn anything your better off just doing nothing then training with a DVD.  Now I also think people that come on here looking for some kind of approval from forum memebers on their master trading plans are just as silly why do you care what we think if you want to go buy DVD and train go do it who cares what we think and save yourself the grief and use the search function there are only 100 other threads like this one



True, and people will decide what they want to do, no matter what you, me or anyone else says.  Like I said, I think alot of the times, people are too quick to make excuses for not getting to a dojo.  But in the end, each person will be responsible for his/her actions.


----------



## ballen0351

Going to a dojo does not make someone a martial artist either.  People want to learn for a million different reasons.  Also I would say sometimes a quality online system or DVD system is better then a crappy belt factory.  Every time this topic comes up I think a "school" near me that claims to teach the ancient native American Indian martial arts.  Instead of belts you get feathers for your head dress.  I went there once for a kids birthday party and was talking to the "chief warrior" who ran the school a white freckle faced red head by the way not even a native American he was telling me about the classes ans how he has secret fighting techniques passed down from famous Indian warriors.  It was the biggest bunch of crap I've ever seen.  So in that case a real teacher isn't better then a dvd .  

As for the wild wild west comment even in big cities which I personally spend a lot of time in Washington  DC and Baltimore and even then chances of me getting into a fight a slim.  If you took a poll here on MT about who's actually been in a real fight not counting Emma fights or boxing  or sparring I mean a real no rules fight the numbers would be low.  I know we have about 45 adults at my dojo and I'm the only one that has ever even used what we learned in real life but I'm also a police officer so fights come to me.  That's a good thing like I said that's not a put down on people.  I'm not saying you should not be prepared for a fight but chances are good you never will need it.  I carry a gun everywhere I go but thankfully the chance I'll ever need it are very slim.

Maybe I just don't take the "I'm a martial artist" thing so serious as some.  I could care less how or what you train in as long as your doing something its better then nothing.  Even the ancient art of Geronimo has to teach something useful at some point.  I'm just not going to walk around with Turkey feathers on my head.


----------



## Instructor

MJS said:


> Honestly, I never really viewed a dvd learning method as making someone a martial artist, but I suppose they could be.  I view a serious martial artist, as someone who's training under a teacher, learning a system, and putting in the blood, sweat and tears to actually get on the mat and bust your ***.  And yes, we all train for different reasons.  If someone is content with dvd learning, then it is what it is.  As I've said, they're most likely going to be limited to the content of the dvd, but if thats what they want.....



Just because you are learning at a distance doesn't mean you aren't training under a teacher, learning a system, or all the rest.  In fact people that learn remotely often have to work much harder to get the same level as their more traditionally taught brethren.


----------



## dancingalone

DVDs and videos can be useful in limited situations.  I've related this story a few times before in similar threads:  I've had a student with no prior MA experience teach himself a roundhouse kick from a TKD instructional video.  The biggest correction I had to make (and yes arguably it is a big one) is that I had to tell him to swing through on the kicking motion rather than stopping it on impact.  Not that big a deal IMO though, since a few minutes after telling him that, he was booming away on the kicking shield with good efficiency for his level of development.

I am confident that a carefully crafted instructional program could be designed to work hand in hand with live studio instruction to help students achieve technical proficiency in a shorter period of time than with in-studio class instruction alone.

To be sure I don't think I am saying any different than what most here have.  You can't learn to fight from a dvd and neither can you learn a complete martial art system from video.  No one reasonable would argue that I think.  However I do agree some are too extreme about the perils of video training.  Some arts and skills arguably translate better on video than others.  Wing chun, tai chi probably are bad choices for the format.  But what about learning some basic karate/taekwondo such as a front stance, reverse punch, and a roundhouse kick?  I think those things are very coachable through a video format, though of course live correction and adjustments should be part of the equation.


----------



## MJS

ballen0351 said:


> Going to a dojo does not make someone a martial artist either.



We may have to agree to disagree on that.  IMHO, my view on what a MAist is/isn't, is someone who is actively training under a teacher, at a school, 2-3 times a week, if not more.  



> People want to learn for a million different reasons.



Agreed.




> Also I would say sometimes a quality online system or DVD system is better then a crappy belt factory.



Yeah, I could agree with you on that.  For me, in the order I'd do things:  Avoid the crappy belt factory altogether, travel a further distance to get training at a better school, if I could only make it to class a few times, due to the distance, see if privates are an option, and then as a last resort, use dvds.



> Every time this topic comes up I think a "school" near me that claims to teach the ancient native American Indian martial arts.  Instead of belts you get feathers for your head dress.  I went there once for a kids birthday party and was talking to the "chief warrior" who ran the school a white freckle faced red head by the way not even a native American he was telling me about the classes ans how he has secret fighting techniques passed down from famous Indian warriors.  It was the biggest bunch of crap I've ever seen.  So in that case a real teacher isn't better then a dvd .



LMFAO!!!  I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that! 



> As for the wild wild west comment even in big cities which I personally spend a lot of time in Washington  DC and Baltimore and even then chances of me getting into a fight a slim.  If you took a poll here on MT about who's actually been in a real fight not counting Emma fights or boxing  or sparring I mean a real no rules fight the numbers would be low.  I know we have about 45 adults at my dojo and I'm the only one that has ever even used what we learned in real life but I'm also a police officer so fights come to me.  That's a good thing like I said that's not a put down on people.  I'm not saying you should not be prepared for a fight but chances are good you never will need it.  I carry a gun everywhere I go but thankfully the chance I'll ever need it are very slim.



Agreed on the fights.  My point was simply that in the cities of Hartford, New Haven and Bridgeport Ct, there is alot of violence.  Granted a big majority of it is gun violence, most likely related to drugs and gangs.



> Maybe I just don't take the "I'm a martial artist" thing so serious as some.  I could care less how or what you train in as long as your doing something its better then nothing.  Even the ancient art of Geronimo has to teach something useful at some point.  I'm just not going to walk around with Turkey feathers on my head.



Good points, and likewise, I'd prefer to not walk around with feathers, pretending I'm an Indian, either.


----------



## MJS

Instructor said:


> Just because you are learning at a distance doesn't mean you aren't training under a teacher, learning a system, or all the rest.



I'll disagree with the notion of training under someone, however, I will agree with the last part, that you're going to be learning a system, although it may not be as good as if you were training under a live teacher.  





> In fact people that learn remotely often have to work much harder to get the same level as their more traditionally taught brethren.



Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with that.  When I'm in class, my teacher is constantly pushing every single one of us...punch harder, kicker harder, higher, etc.  We leave that class soaked with sweat, exhausted, but we all feel great after that workout.  Where is the motivation for someone to rise off the couch, pop in the dvd, and actually work....hard.  Hey, who knows, maybe some people do, but IMHO, you're really only going to reap all the big benefits, from a dojo.


----------



## James Kovacich

I think a big question for both sides of this discussion is "can we really teach ourselves?" The answer is yes but it is rare to see quality to to be the end result. But not impossible. Now this guy is purely self taught. He didnt even have real training tapes either. He used books and Bruce Lee movies. He's for real too. I know people who know him and he even flew out from Scottland to train with one of my old instructors in Hayward, Ca. 

He became ceritified "later" by a prominent instructor but by that point he had already made "a lot of noise" and it was inevitable that someone would attempt to bring him on board. 





Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chris Parker

Hmm, I don't know that that's an entirely accurate assessment on Tommy's background, there James.... 

From his own site, Tommy's background is listed as being rather extensive, including Military methods (taught by his father), Jiu-Jitsu (I'm presuming a modern form, or BJJ), Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) for at least 4 years, boxing (at which he excelled), wrestling, Judo, Karate, "Non-classical Gung Fu", before deciding to look for JKD. Initially he couldn't find any teachers, so learnt by applying the principles (from extensive reading) to what he already knew, and began attending seminars, although he wasn't really impressed with their approach (as it conflicted with his ideals and his interpretation of Bruce's writings). Eventually he contacted Gary Dill, a student of James Lee, one of Bruce's original students, who invited him out to California to train, where he undertook an "intensive instructors course". So while his beginning foray into JKD was through books and the like, it was from an extensive background (including the highly related Ving Tsun system, and a number of other areas that Bruce himself also researched/studied), and when he could, he sought out instruction himself. http://www.tommycarruthers.com/tommy

Additionally, he laments persons who claim to teach JKD without formal instruction themselves on a page reviewing seminars, stating "So, we have the other group at the seminar. Now, these guys are teachers running schools; but they haven't been taught JKD from any teacher, just self taught. They're totally useless and wouldn't even stand a chance in my beginners class; yet they have schools with 30 odd students. I cannot see the point to going to a teacher who has no line nor even the basics of what JKD is. I was shocked when the host told me this guy and that guy are running schools. Again, this is another reason JKD is in such a mess. So, let's hope we can expose these folk or get them to go be taught by somebody to get them on the right track at least." So you can see that he emphasises learning from an instructor, not being self taught himself. http://www.tommycarruthers.com/belgium-seminars-2009

To me, the question isn't about whether or not you can be self taught, it's about what you're learning. If you just want some techniques, that can be done by video learning to a fair degree. Ballen0351 has expressed his take that you can learn (techniques) from a DVD, and that he doesn't like the attitude that you can't. Thing is, though, if it's just about learning some fighting techniques, you can go anywhere, and the system doesn't matter. If you're choosing a particular system, then you're wanting to learn a particular system. And, for reasons already stated, that is something that DVDs just don't work for that. What makes it a system is a lot more than just the techniques. Ballen0351 also spoke about DVDs being the only option if there isn't a school around you... gotta say, that's not really true. If there's no school around you, you really have two choices: move to where one is, or accept that you can't learn the system. DVDs just aren't the same thing, and miss so much that it really isn't an option to learn a martial art. Only techniques. Sadly, most simply don't get the difference (and there are plenty of systems, particularly modern ones and sporting ones, where they are very technique-centric), especially those who are purchasing the DVD programs.


----------



## JamesGarr

As a beginner, I don't have a lot of experience to back up my opinion.  But one insight I might add to the discussion is that from my point of view it is absolutely incredible how much faster one can learn when you have even a small bit of training from a good instructor.  

When I train with a student of equal experience, I can learn, but it takes effort and I sometimes pick up bad habits that must later be unlearned.
When I train with a senior student, I learn techniques faster, and might increase my overall understanding.
When one of the sifus trains me, the learning process becomes much easier and I always comprehend the techniques and underlying reasons behind them more fully.

Even with my limited experience (about 8 weeks), or perhaps especially because of it, I can understand why people say you can't learn martial arts by yourself.  It is so much faster and more effective to be trained in person that finding a good instructor is paramount.   I know I personally could not learn my core martial art style on a DVD; I receive a constant stream of constructive criticism in class.   I could imagine where an experienced martial artist might become self taught on a new form or even style, but even that sounds so inefficient and prone to error and the development of bad habits that I don't think an experienced martial artist would waste their time doing so.


----------



## James Kovacich

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, I don't know that that's an entirely accurate assessment on Tommy's background, there James....
> 
> From his own site, Tommy's background is listed as being rather extensive, including Military methods (taught by his father), Jiu-Jitsu (I'm presuming a modern form, or BJJ), Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) for at least 4 years, boxing (at which he excelled), wrestling, Judo, Karate, "Non-classical Gung Fu", before deciding to look for JKD. Initially he couldn't find any teachers, so learnt by applying the principles (from extensive reading) to what he already knew, and began attending seminars, although he wasn't really impressed with their approach (as it conflicted with his ideals and his interpretation of Bruce's writings). Eventually he contacted Gary Dill, a student of James Lee, one of Bruce's original students, who invited him out to California to train, where he undertook an "intensive instructors course". So while his beginning foray into JKD was through books and the like, it was from an extensive background (including the highly related Ving Tsun system, and a number of other areas that Bruce himself also researched/studied), and when he could, he sought out instruction himself. http://www.tommycarruthers.com/tommy
> 
> Additionally, he laments persons who claim to teach JKD without formal instruction themselves on a page reviewing seminars, stating "So, we have the other group at the seminar. Now, these guys are teachers running schools; but they haven't been taught JKD from any teacher, just self taught. They're totally useless and wouldn't even stand a chance in my beginners class; yet they have schools with 30 odd students. I cannot see the point to going to a teacher who has no line nor even the basics of what JKD is. I was shocked when the host told me this guy and that guy are running schools. Again, this is another reason JKD is in such a mess. So, let's hope we can expose these folk or get them to go be taught by somebody to get them on the right track at least." So you can see that he emphasises learning from an instructor, not being self taught himself. http://www.tommycarruthers.com/belgium-seminars-2009
> 
> To me, the question isn't about whether or not you can be self taught, it's about what you're learning. If you just want some techniques, that can be done by video learning to a fair degree. Ballen0351 has expressed his take that you can learn (techniques) from a DVD, and that he doesn't like the attitude that you can't. Thing is, though, if it's just about learning some fighting techniques, you can go anywhere, and the system doesn't matter. If you're choosing a particular system, then you're wanting to learn a particular system. And, for reasons already stated, that is something that DVDs just don't work for that. What makes it a system is a lot more than just the techniques. Ballen0351 also spoke about DVDs being the only option if there isn't a school around you... gotta say, that's not really true. If there's no school around you, you really have two choices: move to where one is, or accept that you can't learn the system. DVDs just aren't the same thing, and miss so much that it really isn't an option to learn a martial art. Only techniques. Sadly, most simply don't get the difference (and there are plenty of systems, particularly modern ones and sporting ones, where they are very technique-centric), especially those who are purchasing the DVD programs.



Thats what his site reflects today. Martial histories change to fit the times. An example is the old instructor I referanced that I removed from my lineage tree. My former friend here in CA came between me and my instructor and I no longer have what was an important relationship to me. Now that same former friend is a Ving Tsun master and non classical gung fu instructor and a long distance student (from CA to Scottland) of Tommys.

Tommy has his video students too but as far as I know they test in person at seminars. Sound familiar? I can't say where his ving tsun and non classical gung fu training came from but it is very possible it came from his student, or maybe just the associations. In the past Tommy denounced his "long distance video" Gary Dill  training back when he was "making noise" and many people, even the JKD community didn't know him and claimed his videos were "sped up."

He's controversial and says a lot. That dosent take away from his talent. He is very talented.

For the record: I did know about the long distance video association with Gary Dill, I totally forgot. Also Gary Dill requires his students to test in person and attend seminars.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## James Kovacich

Chris,
Just checked his site and it could be that he did actually train with others in the style he claimed but there's still a question mark as to when. His long distant students credentals are as I stated and seem to be at least "related." 

Im surprised you didnt pick any quotes from this page. http://www.tommycarruthers.com/online-jkd-club. 



Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chris Parker

James Kovacich said:


> Thats what his site reflects today. Martial histories change to fit the times. An example is the old instructor I referanced that I removed from my lineage tree. My former friend here in CA came between me and my instructor and I no longer have what was an important relationship to me. Now that same former friend is a Ving Tsun master and non classical gung fu instructor and a long distance student (from CA to Scottland) of Tommys.
> 
> Tommy has his video students too but as far as I know they test in person at seminars. Sound familiar? I can't say where his ving tsun and non classical gung fu training came from but it is very possible it came from his student, or maybe just the associations. In the past Tommy denounced his "long distance video" Gary Dill  training back when he was "making noise" and many people, even the JKD community didn't know him and claimed his videos were "sped up."
> 
> He's controversial and says a lot. That dosent take away from his talent. He is very talented.
> 
> For the record: I did know about the long distance video association with Gary Dill, I totally forgot. Also Gary Dill requires his students to test in person and attend seminars.



I get the idea of histories "changing", but going from "completely self taught from books and Bruce Lee movies" to "30 years experience (with a wide variety of arts, including seminars in JKD, and travelling from Scotland to California in order to train)" is quite a change, wouldn't you say? Additionally, the way you're describing Tommy's learning here involves seminars and in-person contact (with Gary Dill) in conjunction with the distance program, so again, it's really not the same as "completely self taught from books and Bruce Lee movies".



James Kovacich said:


> Chris,
> Just checked his site and it could be that he did actually train with others in the style he claimed but there's still a question mark as to when. His long distant students credentals are as I stated and seem to be at least "related."
> 
> Im surprised you didnt pick any quotes from this page. http://www.tommycarruthers.com/online-jkd-club.



Hmm, well I didn't put anything up from that page as I hadn't read it... but going through it there, I still wouldn't have included anything. It's really just Tommy (or his marketing team) saying how good the program is (well, they are the ones selling it) combined with some typical over-the-top hyperbole, not to mention being occasionally contradictory. All it says to me, really, is that Tommy, along with a number of others in many different arts, is offering a distance/online learning program. It doesn't say that that's how he learnt, or that it's better than anything other than a sub-standard alternate.


----------



## Instructor

MJS said:


> I'll disagree with the notion of training under someone, however, I will agree with the last part, that you're going to be learning a system, although it may not be as good as if you were training under a live teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with that.  When I'm in class, my teacher is constantly pushing every single one of us...punch harder, kicker harder, higher, etc.  We leave that class soaked with sweat, exhausted, but we all feel great after that workout.  Where is the motivation for someone to rise off the couch, pop in the dvd, and actually work....hard.  Hey, who knows, maybe some people do, but IMHO, you're really only going to reap all the big benefits, from a dojo.



In our system we teach in real time through the digital dojang live.  I see the student and the student sees me, in real time.  We often press the students to alter and excel in much the same way you describe.  It's a feedback system.  I can't speak for other systems, particularly the DVD types, but for my own I safely stand by what I said.


----------



## DennisBreene

ballen0351 said:


> Going to a dojo does not make someone a martial artist either.  People want to learn for a million different reasons.  Also I would say sometimes a quality online system or DVD system is better then a crappy belt factory.  Every time this topic comes up I think a "school" near me that claims to teach the ancient native American Indian martial arts.  Instead of belts you get feathers for your head dress.  I went there once for a kids birthday party and was talking to the "chief warrior" who ran the school a white freckle faced red head by the way not even a native American he was telling me about the classes ans how he has secret fighting techniques passed down from famous Indian warriors.  It was the biggest bunch of crap I've ever seen.  So in that case a real teacher isn't better then a dvd .
> 
> As for the wild wild west comment even in big cities which I personally spend a lot of time in Washington  DC and Baltimore and even then chances of me getting into a fight a slim.  If you took a poll here on MT about who's actually been in a real fight not counting Emma fights or boxing  or sparring I mean a real no rules fight the numbers would be low.  I know we have about 45 adults at my dojo and I'm the only one that has ever even used what we learned in real life but I'm also a police officer so fights come to me.  That's a good thing like I said that's not a put down on people.  I'm not saying you should not be prepared for a fight but chances are good you never will need it.  I carry a gun everywhere I go but thankfully the chance I'll ever need it are very slim.
> 
> Maybe I just don't take the "I'm a martial artist" thing so serious as some.  I could care less how or what you train in as long as your doing something its better then nothing.  Even the ancient art of Geronimo has to teach something useful at some point.  I'm just not going to walk around with Turkey feathers on my head.



At a get together of a group of black belts for a visit of our retired Grand Master last night, as you might expect there were a lot of memories and war stories to relate. I think the most telling comment was from the Grand Master's son (a respected Grand Master in his own right).

He reminded us that we train for years for the fight that will never occur. He went on to say that when we shake someone's hand in greeting, open a door for someone, say "thank you", or "have a good day" we are practicing martial arts. We are the proponents of peace. The attributes we acquire of respect, humbleness, mature confidence,  as a component to techniques we acquire are essential to what makes it Martial Arts as opposed to skilled street fighting.  I find it hard to believe that those qualities are truly internalized outside of the environment of the dojang and constant exposure to senior practitioners who model such qualities as they interact with the students. I don't mean to imply that non MA aren't polite and considerate. I just believe that our skills place an obligation on us to be particularly aware of how we present ourselves.


----------



## MJS

Instructor said:


> In our system we teach in real time through the digital dojang live.  I see the student and the student sees me, in real time.  We often press the students to alter and excel in much the same way you describe.  It's a feedback system.  I can't speak for other systems, particularly the DVD types, but for my own I safely stand by what I said.



Ahhh....well, in that case, I'd be more inclined to go with something like what you're describing, over the typical dvd course.  Although you're still at a distance, there's still some 1 on 1 interaction, which is a good thing.


----------



## Instructor

MJS said:


> Ahhh....well, in that case, I'd be more inclined to go with something like what you're describing, over the typical dvd course.  Although you're still at a distance, there's still some 1 on 1 interaction, which is a good thing.




Thank You MJS.

Student teacher interaction is fundamental to learning.  It's a fact we agreed was vital in the early planning stages of Hapkido Online.  It's the reason that in the education system they see higher test scores in smaller classrooms.  The more student teacher interaction the better the outcome, generally.

I predict in the coming years our model will become the norm for distance learning programs.  There is no replacement for somebody watching you and saying, no...LIKE THIS!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

I'm not a huge fan of distance learning, but in fairness I should present some evidence that it can be effective.  This video shows a student with no prior martial arts experience who trained exclusively with the Gracie University videos taking his first blue belt stripe test at the Gracie Academy.  (He traveled to California for the test.)  I have to say, he looks pretty respectable.


----------



## SPX

Omar B said:


> Dumb topic gets dumb answer.  Use the search function.  Your first thread isn't even an introduction but a rerun.



Dude, chill.  

WTF is wrong with you?


----------



## shesulsa

SPX said:


> Dude, chill.
> 
> WTF is wrong with you?



That quoted post is an older post...  the topic is flowing now. Let's not renew conflict, mkay?

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## SPX

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not a huge fan of distance learning, but in fairness I should present some evidence that it can be effective.  This video shows a student with no prior martial arts experience who trained exclusively with the Gracie University videos taking his first blue belt stripe test at the Gracie Academy.  (He traveled to California for the test.)  I have to say, he looks pretty respectable.




Quite interesting.

I have always fiercely disagreed with those who said you can't learn anything (or even much) that is useful from a good home study course or DVDs or whatever.  Can you get to the highest level?  No.  But you CAN learn things and you can at least get to the point of being able to defend yourself against an untrained attacker much better than you could if you had no training at all.

I'll put it this way:  Take two dudes who are about the same height, weight and athletic ability, but who have no martial arts training.  Give one of them six months, a boxing instructional DVD, a judo DVD, some equipment and a training partner to experiment on.  Then set up a fight between those two dudes and it's pretty obvious who will win, and probably easily.


----------



## WC_lun

SPX said:


> Quite interesting.
> 
> I have always fiercely disagreed with those who said you can't learn anything (or even much) that is useful from a good home study course or DVDs or whatever.  Can you get to the highest level?  No.  But you CAN learn things and you can at least get to the point of being able to defend yourself against an untrained attacker much better than you could if you had no training at all.
> 
> I'll put it this way:  Take two dudes who are about the same height, weight and athletic ability, but who have no martial arts training.  Give one of them six months, a boxing instructional DVD, a judo DVD, some equipment and a training partner to experiment on.  Then set up a fight between those two dudes and it's pretty obvious who will win, and probably easily.



Yes, it will be the guy who doesn't fight from fantasy. It'll be the guy who has learned the least bad habits. It'll be the guy who just reactes to what is given and doesn't pause to force this or that technique never used upon a resisting opponent.  It'll be the guy who can take a shot to his chops and save worrying about it till things are taken care off.  Bad training inhibits a fighters basic natural responses.  Good training enhances those.  Knowing the difference usually takes an experienced martial artist who knows what they are looking at.  Books, DVDs, etc, do not have the ability to impart that very important thing to a beginner.


----------



## TheArtofDave

First off I have to disagree. Some of us do not have the money or the time to go on a vision quest on what martial art would best represent us. I use to take BJJ but I quit voluntarily not because I did not enjoy it but because for one after having to remind my instructor to get me prepared to test for my first stripe for blue belt the guy wouldn't. I wouldn't be opposed to having a training partner or even traveling around my area to find one to prepare me should I decide to learn distance training. Now you can learn from a home study course but it would be wonderful to find one where you could get some correspondence with a live instructor to help you progress. But if you have an instructional video that goes over the basics. You go in steps. Learn the basics and then move up to the next level as you learn. Everybody learns at their own pace any way so why would an instructional DVD be any different?

Reasons for learning may be different. You may not be looking for rank. It may be just for fitness, and self defense only. Kata you can definitely learn on video and you have plenty of time to perfect technique. Of course training partners are good. Having friends to help you and make sure you both go in slow steps for safety reasons is a good bet. You get what you put into the art whether is through home study, correspondence, or through an actual school.

So why would a traditional martial artist, or an unconventional one determine whats best for another person's training? It's the benefit of cross training. I love boxing. I pretty much practice on the punching bag at my brothers house but I do not compete in my area. But could I hold my own long enough to escape if somebody picked a fight with me? Absolutely. Training within your means. Home study might be your only means but if you're like me and want to make sure what you're learning can actually benefit you then you take your chances. Train through movements, using a punching bag, or eventually finding a foam dummy you can go to town on so nobody gets arrested. You can also practice on it with no complaints, or the cops being called on you.

Its all in the manner you approach it. It may take more time than what other people consider the conventional way. But just because another persons training may not be the approach you'd normally take, doesn't mean its not worth while for that person.

I've also seen things about a hybrid style of ninjutsu. But the idea reeked of BS. There were no reviews, but for some reason I'd rather correspond traditionally over a hybrid version. What if that part that was designed as a hybrid is just a bunch of hype and nothing else. Then I've wasted both my money and my time and I'm not about to experiment with that. But any other thing I specifically research to make sure that for one its something I could not train in my area, and number two I'm going to get the most of it, and number three and most importantly if I was ever in situation where I had to use it, the training would not fail.

But that is just my two cents. What works for me might not necessarily work for somebody else.


----------

