# UFC Behind and Closed Minded?



## matt.m (May 5, 2009)

Really,

In all seriousness.  It seems that every MMA promotion offers female fighting, so why is Dana White so closed minded as to not do the same for the UFC?  Any thoughts are welcome.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 5, 2009)

There is no Dana, only Zuul.


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## Omar B (May 5, 2009)

Personally, when the women fight I don't' watch.  Call it a flaw in me, but I can't watch women wail on each other unless there's mud or pudding involved.


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## jarrod (May 5, 2009)

you're missing some great fights.

jf


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## Ronin74 (May 5, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Personally, when the women fight I don't' watch. Call it a flaw in me, but I can't watch women wail on each other unless there's mud or pudding involved.


LOL... too funny.

To be honest, I've only seen Gina Carano's fights on Elite XC because it was on CBS. I don't have anything against females fighting, but because I never had whatever channel showed Elite XC's events, I never cared to go out of my way to watch their events. In truth, I also had no interest in ordering PPV events headlined by Kimbo... lol.

In regards to Dana White, I believe he said in an old interview that from a business perspective, women's matches weren't a big draw. Now we could argue whether or not the matches are exciting or not. Personally, I think a good fight is a good fight, whether it's a men's fight or a women's fight; whether it's a title match or someone's debut. However, for MMA promters, the question they have to ask is always based on the numbers: is something enough of a draw that they should invest in it?

Now this isn't to say it won't ever be in the UFC. We can actually liken this to the first days of the UFC. Prior to Zuffa purchasing the UFC, Dana White and the Fertitta brothers had to consider whether UFC, and MMA in general was something worth investing in. For those familiar with the general history, UFC had already been banned in the US, and finding buyers for the promotion were not easy. Now it's more or less considered the grand stage of MMA.

With regards to women's MMA, I think it has to have a larger fanbase for them to consider it a worthwhile investment. I'm only speculating here, but I think they're after something with staying power and not something that will be perceived as a passing "fad".


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## Thesemindz (May 5, 2009)

I don't have anything against female martial artists, or female fighters, but personally, I can't stomach watching female full contact.

It isn't anything against the fighters. They're pros. They're tough. They deserve the chance to fight, and their genitalia shouldn't get in the way. As a fan though, I just can't watch it.

So I don't. I don't know what percentage of fans feel like I do, and I'd still watch UFC if they included female fights, but I couldn't watch those fights. I can watch guys pound their faces into pudding, I can't watch women do the same.


-Rob


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## Omar B (May 6, 2009)

jarrod said:


> you're missing some great fights.
> 
> jf



Maybe I am, but I'm not gonna watch women hit each other, that's not cool to me.


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## Tez3 (May 6, 2009)

Thnaks for all the patronising guys. There's no difference in watching female MMA than there is female bouts in TKD, Judo or Karate because thats exactly what MMA is.
Lets not bother then applauding any skills the women have, lets just be faux gentlemanly and say we don't like watching women hit each other  shall we? what you are saying guys is that you think women can't fight and all they will do is punch each other in the face. Oh how dare these women actually think they could get into the ring/cage and fight, hence the demeaning comments about mud etc. No, it's not funny, it's down right insulting. Get a life.
You all claim to be martial artists and on the TMA threads claim that women are treated equally by you, are they hell, when it comes down to it you are as chavinistic as men as any Afghan.
Do you know, your attitudes make me feel sick? It's all talk isn't on the other forums when someone asks about special treatment for women and you all pipe up gosh no, 'they must be treated the same as any other student', 'all my students are treated the same', 'my females are good fighters' you all go..... yet when a chance to prove themselves as fighters comes up you laugh, make jokes and generally insult us. 
Get a grip guys, open your eyes and think seriously about this. You are also missing some of the best fights around, the womens fights tend to better technically, is that what you're afraid of? Being shown up by a female fighter? You haven't the bottle so therefore women mustn't fight?

UFC is only considered by the Americans as 'the grand stage of MMA', There's bigger out there and most are better, the UFC is not the showcase of MMA in the world. Female MMA is accepted, watched and has more fans around the world than probably the UFC has, as I said only in America is it considered to be 'the thing'.

Belittling women fighters doesn't become you gentlemen, it lowers you.


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## Tez3 (May 6, 2009)

Oh and if you are watching male MMA fights where all they do is pummel each other in the face? Then you aren't watching the right MMA fights, thats boxing.





 
The UFC isn't the biggest or the best nor does it have the best fighters, it just has the best publicity.


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## Omar B (May 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Thnaks for all the patronising guys. There's no difference in watching female MMA than there is female bouts in TKD, Judo or Karate because thats exactly what MMA is.
> Lets not bother then applauding any skills the women have, lets just be faux gentlemanly and say we don't like watching women hit each other  shall we? what you are saying guys is that you think women can't fight and all they will do is punch each other in the face. Oh how dare these women actually think they could get into the ring/cage and fight, hence the demeaning comments about mud etc. No, it's not funny, it's down right insulting. Get a life.
> You all claim to be martial artists and on the TMA threads claim that women are treated equally by you, are they hell, when it comes down to it you are as chavinistic as men as any Afghan.
> Do you know, your attitudes make me feel sick? It's all talk isn't on the other forums when someone asks about special treatment for women and you all pipe up gosh no, 'they must be treated the same as any other student', 'all my students are treated the same', 'my females are good fighters' you all go..... yet when a chance to prove themselves as fighters comes up you laugh, make jokes and generally insult us.
> ...



Let me just state that I'm not a fan of fighting period so it's not being faux anything.  If I watch a fight it's never at my place and I never go out of my way to watch one.  Not the purpose of MA in my eyes.  I don't like watching women fight, nor do I particularly enjoy watching men fight.  And yes, I do applaud the skills of female martial artists, one of my best teachers was a woman.

Don't go painting me into this chauvinistic corner because you assume I don't want to watch women fight.  I don't like fighting period.  Heck, the only martial arts movies I own on DVD are a Bruce Lee box set and that's it.


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## Ironcrane (May 6, 2009)

Personally, I really enjoy watching women fighters. As sexist, as it may, or may not sound, I find it refreshing to find a lady with martial arts talent, who isn't afraid to dish it out.
I remember trying to get into watching Boxing on t.v. but I could never do it. Every match I ever watched, the two Boxers would just dance around, and throw a jab every so often. Then they move into a clinch, and get separated. Repeat for the entire match. It wasn't until I watch one, where all the Boxers were women that I enjoyed it. The woman went in there and mixed it up.
It was the first time I ever saw Boxers that boxed, as apposed to just dancing around, and throwing a few jabs.


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## CoryKS (May 6, 2009)

His business, his rules.  Don't like it, raise some capital and book a venue.  Does everybody really have to be in lock-step agreement on every issue?

Personally, I enjoy watching females fight as much as the males.  I've seen a lot of good technique and there tends to be less wrestling, which I find boring.  But it ain't my call if the guy who invested his time and money into the enterprise doesn't want to sponsor it.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 6, 2009)

I personally like female fights very technical IMO. Also Women fights have great stand up action.

As for Dana its his organization and he runs it how he wants to. But I think he is missing out on a great market of woman fighters who seem to be carving their own niche in MMA.


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## Nomad (May 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Thnaks for all the patronising guys. There's no difference in watching female MMA than there is female bouts in TKD, Judo or Karate because thats exactly what MMA is.
> Lets not bother then applauding any skills the women have, lets just be faux gentlemanly and say we don't like watching women hit each other shall we? what you are saying guys is that you think women can't fight and all they will do is punch each other in the face. Oh how dare these women actually think they could get into the ring/cage and fight, hence the demeaning comments about mud etc. No, it's not funny, it's down right insulting. Get a life.
> You all claim to be martial artists and on the TMA threads claim that women are treated equally by you, are they hell, when it comes down to it you are as chavinistic as men as any Afghan.
> Do you know, your attitudes make me feel sick? It's all talk isn't on the other forums when someone asks about special treatment for women and you all pipe up gosh no, 'they must be treated the same as any other student', 'all my students are treated the same', 'my females are good fighters' you all go..... yet when a chance to prove themselves as fighters comes up you laugh, make jokes and generally insult us.
> ...


 
I can see where you're coming from on this, but I think it's an oversimplification to claim that men who don't want to see women fight are chauvinistic. To me, that's the easy way out. 

I think there are a lot of complex things at work here. From a very young age, our society teaches most guys that it's not ok to hit a girl, and in general, places men in a "protective" role... whether you want to argue that this is an evolutionary role from the hunter/gatherer days or a remnant of the male-dominated societies in which women were treated as chattel depends on your viewpoint... both have validity in my mind.

While I have enjoyed watching the few female fights I've seen as there has been great technique involved, there is something inherently more cringe-worthy for most guys seeing a girl get pummelled than a guy. I can completely understand why many guys don't want to see it, and don't think it's particularly a chauvinist attitude.


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## jarrod (May 6, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Don't go painting me into this chauvinistic corner because you assume I don't want to watch women fight.  I don't like fighting period.  Heck, the only martial arts movies I own on DVD are a Bruce Lee box set and that's it.



i can see where you're coming from, but i think you might have painted yourself in that corner with the mud & pudding wrestling reference.  

jf


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## Omar B (May 6, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i can see where you're coming from, but i think you might have painted yourself in that corner with the mud & pudding wrestling reference.
> 
> jf



I don't think so.  One's sexy, the other's just a beating.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 6, 2009)

Simply put Women MMA fights are not a draw. The biggest names in Womens MMA would have huge trouble filling a stadium. I mean seriously whats the biggest Superfight out there for women at the moment?
Carano v Cyborg maybe? Regardless of whether its politically correct, or anything else, the fact is women mma is not a draw, Dana is about making money, not about making an even playing field, Dana does not care about the fighters in any way shape or form, he cares about the business. He might be friendly with some fighters, and give some fighters preferential treatment, but thats due to the money they bring in. When the fighters are no longer a draw, he gets rid of them. Period.

BTW the UFC is in fact the biggest MMA Organization, it has collectively the best talent on the planet, and saying anything else is just being bitter. Sure arguably the best fighter on the planet is elsewhere, and there are also great fighters not in the UFC, but saying the promotion is not the biggest, and best out there is just denying the truth.

I also think that Tez is a bit out of line, just because someone doeos not like watching women fight for any way shape or form does not mean they are belittling women. I do not particularly like watching any weight class under the 205 class fight unless its a title fight, and even then I get bored with them most of the time. Thats not belittling, its just my personal preference. I want to watch athletes that are bigger then life, that impress me, possibly scare me a little, and I want to watch them do big things. Sure some men might be chauvenistic, but I don't think anyone is saying they can't fight, or shouldn't fight, I think they are just not interested in watching them fight.. /shrug 

It's like I keep saying... you can not force people to do things they do not want to do, people are not paying money to watch women fight, if you think a market is there then go forward with it, and keep pushing, but calling people chauvenistic for not wanting to watch women fight is wrong, its similar to the people out there that called anyone who did not vote for Obama a racist. Its a broad stroke of a brush that is completely wrong, and not helping your case at all.


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## jarrod (May 6, 2009)

Omar B said:


> I don't think so.  One's sexy, the other's just a beating.



which one's the beating; mud or pudding?  

seriously though, MMA & pudding wrestling aren't even in the same category, so i can see where some women might not appreciate the comment.  it sort of makes it sound like women have no place in the ring unless it's for your arousal.  not that i have a problem with pudding wrestling, but i wouldn't draw comparisons between it & women's MMA.  also, when i stated that you were missing some good fights, you didn't point out at that time that you don't like fighting of any sort.

this discussion reminds me of a few years ago when i participated in a co-ed oil wrestling event.  who won?  EVERYBODY.

jf


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## Omar B (May 6, 2009)

I could not tell you who's the champion of UFC, boxing, whatever you have out there.  I don't watch TUF or any of that WWF.  I get why people are fans because I am a martial artist, I just don't see it as entertainment.


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## Thems Fighting Words (May 6, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Simply put Women MMA fights are not a draw. The biggest names in Womens MMA would have huge trouble filling a stadium. I mean seriously whats the biggest Superfight out there for women at the moment?
> Carano v Cyborg maybe? Regardless of whether its politically correct, or anything else, the fact is women mma is not a draw, Dana is about making money, not about making an even playing field, Dana does not care about the fighters in any way shape or form, he cares about the business. He might be friendly with some fighters, and give some fighters preferential treatment, but thats due to the money they bring in. When the fighters are no longer a draw, he gets rid of them. Period.



And that's the cruncher. When UFC bought out their rival, they only contracted male fighters because Dana realized where the money was.


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## Thesemindz (May 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Thnaks for all the patronising guys.


 
You know Tez, you can take it personally if you want, but it isn't, so you're just wasting your energy.

I said I don't have anything against female martial artists or female fighters. I trained them. I trained with them. Some are tougher than a lot of guys I trained with.

But as _a paying customer_, *I don't want to watch women fight full contact.* It isn't "faux gentlemenly." *I don't like it.* I'm not saying they can't fight. I'm saying _I won't tune in._

And I have the right to feel that way, without _some people_ getting pissy about it and implying that I am in some way mysoginistic for having that opinion. It doesn't make me feel any differently when people take that position.

It lowers them.


-Rob


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## jarrod (May 6, 2009)

let's just take it easy all, eh?  it sounds to me like some wires got crossed.  it happens.  

the topic at hand is the UFC specifically.

jf


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## Ronin74 (May 6, 2009)

I'll just come on out and say it- YES, I found the blanket statement pretty offensive. I'm sorry that I found humor in Omar's statment, but I doubt that automatically makes me chauvanistic or mysogynistic.

Now with regards to the original post... I believe the question was why Dana White hasn't brought women's MMA into the UFC. It's not a question of how big the UFC is, or how capable female fighters are, or how entertaining a women's MMA match is. It's why Dana White has not started bringing in female fighters, when many other MMA promotions have.

I'm going to reiterate my previous statment that, in a past interview, Dana White mentioned that from HIS business perspective- and this could be argued (he's a major league promoter, but he's not the be-all-end-all of MMA)- women's MMA currently doesn't have the same drawing power or staying power. Again, this is his opinion, not mine, not Rob's, not Andy's, or anyone else's. It's not a statement against the skills of female fighters or their ability to put on a good match. It's not to say the UFC won't ever have femle MMA matches on their cards in the future. However, for it to be something the UFC would invest in, does it show the potential to draw in ticket-buyers & PPV buyers, and does it look like something that will be a profitable investment (i.e. will women's MMA be as popular tomorrow and in the years to come as it is today.)

Now beyond any of his interviews, nobody can speak for Dana White as a person. Does he dislike the idea of women's MMA? None of us may know, but I'm going to venture a guess that his appointment as president of the UFC is based on his ability to run the business as a profitable venture, and not let his personal opinions direct his business sense.

As far as UFC's status as "A grand stage", that was *my* opinion, and it's totally debatable, but here's where I'm basing that opinion from. Zuffa, which is the UFC's parent company, is a privately owned entity. That being the case, they have no obligations to divulge any information regarding their financial status. However, in a report done by the Associated Press, the UFC's gross revenue for 2006 was over $200 million, US (I believe the number was APPROXIMATELY $222,660,000) on PPV events. I think that's a pretty impressive number, but I'll happily retract my opinion if that's the below, or equal to the average gross revenue other MMA promotions make yearly.

Taking that into account, and regarding the OP, if other MMA promotions who clear roughly the same amount or more money, are featuring cards that headlined, or made up exclusively of women's MMA matchs, then the question is if Dana White is paying attention at all.


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## Tez3 (May 6, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> His business, his rules.* Don't like it, raise some* *capital and book a venue.* Does everybody really have to be in lock-step agreement on every issue?
> 
> Personally, I enjoy watching females fight as much as the males. I've seen a lot of good technique and there tends to be less wrestling, which I find boring. But it ain't my call if the guy who invested his time and money into the enterprise doesn't want to sponsor it.


 

You do know I promote fights right? and yes we have women on and yes people enjoy watching them.
People don't have to agree, of course not but then they don't have to make insulting comments about mud wrestling do they?
Just say hey I don't like full contatc fighting or something like that, don't be patronising about it.


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## Omar B (May 6, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> I'll just come on out and say it- YES, I found the blanket statement pretty offensive. I'm sorry that I found humor in Omar's statment, but I doubt that automatically makes me chauvanistic or mysogynistic.



I'm glad someone found humor in it.  I don't wanna see women get pummeled, is that so wrong?


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## Thesemindz (May 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You do know I promote fights right? and yes we have women on and yes people enjoy watching them.
> People don't have to agree, of course not but then they don't have to make insulting comments about mud wrestling do they?
> Just say *hey I don't like full contatc fighting or something like that*, don't be patronising about it.


 
Gee. I thought that was what I said.


-Rob


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## Marginal (May 7, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I personally like female fights very technical IMO. Also Women fights have great stand up action.


Kinda depends on if you think body blows resulting in KO's are exciting. There's usually a massive size disparity in the fights I've seen to compound matters.


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## MattJ (May 7, 2009)

I think EliteXC showed that women's MMA can be a serious draw. I think the pool of A-level female MMA fighters may be too shallow yet for the UFC.


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## CoryKS (May 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You do know I promote fights right? and yes we have women on and yes people enjoy watching them.
> People don't have to agree, of course not but then they don't have to make insulting comments about mud wrestling do they?
> Just say hey I don't like full contatc fighting or something like that, don't be patronising about it.


 
I was responding to the OP, not you.


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## Nolerama (May 7, 2009)

The first time I saw a female MMA fight was  Rosi Sexton vs Windy Tomomi on a Bodog Fight. I thought it was pretty awesome. Really good boxing, and some clean takedowns. Even with a pretty nasty injury in the second round of the fight, I saw the both of them as great competitors.

Going back to the OP, I think the UFC is already a little bit behind in terms of what seems to be a growing female MMA fighter scene. In terms of close-mindedness, I can see that, too. However, I see the UFC placing their all of their eggs in one basket when it comes to gender.

Think about it. There are plenty of people out there who think that females shouldn't fight in MMA. I think that's wrong, but those people exist. However, both camps are 100% in-tune with male MMA fighters, so why not give the people what they want, and keep the "controversy" outside of the UFC and WEC and leave it up to the other productions? The UFC certainly isn't losing viewership because it doesn't have female fighters... Personally, I think the UFC is probably gaining viewership because of that.

It sucks, but it's about money.


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## Omar B (May 7, 2009)

MattJ said:


> I think EliteXC showed that women's MMA can be a serious draw. I think the pool of A-level female MMA fighters may be too shallow yet for the UFC.



But EliteXC failed.  They didn't seriously draw anything.  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/josh_gross/10/20/elitexc/


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## punisher73 (May 7, 2009)

In the US for the most part, people _do_ look at women's fighting like they do when watching WWE's Divas.  It's not saying that this view is right, but it is true.  It does not help any when fighters like Gina get almost naked in men's magazines talking about how they are a "professional".

Because of this, women's fights in boxing and now MMA are still view as a sideshow.  They are not a big draw in the US, they might draw some people to watch out of curiousity, but for many that is it.

Dana White has tried VERY hard to stay away from promoting the UFC in the same class as toughman competitions and that sideshow "No Holds Barred" mentality that permeated  the sport early on.  He also tries to do what will make him the most money...period.  He doesn't have certain weight classes that other promotions do either.  Why?  Because those fighters don't have the same draw and PPV buys as higher weight classes.  Since UFC has the highest profile, it is considered the best out there, that doesn't make it so, but perception is everything.

If women fighters want to be taken seriously, then they need to conduct themselves in a way that promotes their abilities and skills and not get all of their publicity for their lack of clothing and looks.


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## IcemanSK (May 7, 2009)

I think why women are a part of the UFC is currently due to a double-edged sword. The quality of female fighters isn't there yet (to a large enough degree to make it worthwhile). But the quality won't go up soon enough if there isn't a way women can make good money doing it. However, since MMA is a new sport, the quality of the women's fighting pool should increase rapidly. I don't think the UFC will hold that position for too many more years. The female fighters are getting better & they will be recognized for more just T & A.


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2009)

I haven't been able to get onto MT or any other website thanks to either my computer or AOL throwing a wobbly, I log on and get a blank screen with 'done' on it.
This is Lisa Higo a friend of mine she recently competed in America beating three girls in one night,all the womens fights were well received.
http://www.fightergirls.com/fighter.asp?ID=1227
One of her fights




The guy in the black top is her husband John a very well respected kickboxing coach, Lis was full contact KB champion, the guy with them is Karl Tanswell the best corner in the world! He trains Rosi Sexton as well.
Okay it's not the biggest crowd in the world but in Japan womens fights are treated the same as the mens and draw large crowds, womes fights elsewhere will get there.
We don't have huge disparity in size in womens fights, we do have very professional fighters, don't lump them all into the same category. gina Careno may be a good fighter, she's not a professional one having never made weight in six fights and only fighting on her sponsors shows but that is one issue over ONE female,don't judge ALL by that. If you judged the men the same way....?
If people don't want to watch womens MMA or any full contact sport fine but having decided not to watch they should not then disparage and belittle women who do want to take part with childish comments about mud wrestling, I could suggest you repeat those comment over on the TKD forum about watching women in mud and see the response you get.
We all have our preferences but the best thing is not to make fun of or be rude about other peoples choices just because they are different from yours.


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## MattJ (May 8, 2009)

Omar B said:


> But EliteXC failed. They didn't seriously draw anything. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/josh_gross/10/20/elitexc/


 
Touche, LOL. But their failure was not from lack of ratings about female MMA. Gina was arguably as big a draw as Kimbo was. EliteXC simply did not have the brand recognition in the US that the UFC does - females or no.

And, as Tez noted, female MMA is pretty big elsewhere (like Japan).


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2009)

MattJ said:


> Touche, LOL. But their failure was not from lack of ratings about female MMA. Gina was arguably as big a draw as Kimbo was. EliteXC simply did not have the brand recognition in the US that the UFC does - females or no.
> 
> And, as Tez noted, female MMA is pretty big elsewhere (like Japan).


 

Spot on, it wasn't due to female fighters that EliteXC failed. They made a huge catalogue of mistakes, the best thing they did though was feature womens bouts.
Looking at the Fightergirls calender of events in America there seems to be a lot of promotions with female bouts on and there seems to be plenty of female fighters to compete.
http://www.fightergirls.com/news.asp?ID=267
http://www.fightergirls.com/news.asp?ID=269
http://www.fightergirls.com/news.asp?ID=261

http://www.fightergirls.com/pictures.asp


In Japan they have all female competitions, Valkyrie has risen from the ashes of Smackgirl and there are other promotions pushing hard to be the top female show.


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## punisher73 (May 11, 2009)

MattJ said:


> Touche, LOL. But their failure was not from lack of ratings about female MMA. Gina was arguably as big a draw as Kimbo was. EliteXC simply did not have the brand recognition in the US that the UFC does - females or no.
> 
> And, as Tez noted, female MMA is pretty big elsewhere (like Japan).


 
Gina Curano was a draw because she has been featured in several men's magazines banking on her looks and on "American Gladiators".  To most hardcore fans (take a look over at the "underground forum" at www.mma.tv) she was a professional embarassment because she never could make weight and a host of other issues.


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## Tez3 (May 11, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Gina Curano was a draw because she has been featured in several men's magazines banking on her looks and on "American Gladiators". To most hardcore fans (take a look over at the "underground forum" at www.mma.tv) she was a professional embarassment because she never could make weight and a host of other issues.


 

Spot on there! When she fought Rosi, it was a huge disappointment she didn't make weight and the way her management behaved was a disgrace. Certain people on MT got mad with me because I said she should behave professionally, I was told I was jealous lol! Her subsequent lack of making weight and other issues I think have proved me right. It's such a waste tbh, she's obviously got what it takes to be a fighter, she's just not taken fighting seriously and has damaged female MMA in the process.

Rosi has signed up with Bellator now.


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## girlbug2 (May 11, 2009)

Dana White is obviously good at his job, as the popularity of UFC in this country will attest. If he's not putting female fighters on, I'd be inclined to believe that it's because of his business acumen, not chauvenism. He'd do whatever it takes to make UFC profitable as has been pointed out repeatedly.

So if America is one of the last countries to accept female fighting, then the fault for that lands squarely on Americans and our attitudes. We do need to seriously take a look at ourselves and ask why such a supposedly advanced culture that promotes freedom and democracy can't bring itself to grant women the same status as men when it comes to sports in general. I mean fergawdsakes, _Japan_ can appreciate female fighting, what's wrong with us?


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## MattJ (May 11, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Gina Curano was a draw because she has been featured in several men's magazines banking on her looks and on "American Gladiators". To most hardcore fans (take a look over at the "underground forum" at www.mma.tv) she was a professional embarassment because she never could make weight and a host of other issues.


 
I'm afraid you are parsing your argument, sir. The opinion of the MMA hardcore fans was not my point - the overall ratings were. 

http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/05/11/gina-carano-makes-maxims-hot-100/

_"Her matchups on CBS saw the biggest audience draw of any fighter aside from Kimbo Slice. Since then she was profiled on ESPN's E:60 and had her likeness used in a videogame"_

I'm just saying that female fighters can generate ratings.


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## AoCAdam (May 11, 2009)

Considering that MMA is still not legal in every state in America yet, I don't think allowing Female MMA in the UFC will help his cause to petition the athletic boards in states such as New York.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2009)

AoCAdam said:


> Considering that MMA is still not legal in every state in America yet, I don't think allowing Female MMA in the UFC will help his cause to petition the athletic boards in states such as New York.


 

I think it will do quite the opposite actually. A men only sport is not popular in many places and when it's a martial sport even more so.


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## punisher73 (May 12, 2009)

MattJ said:


> I'm afraid you are parsing your argument, sir. The opinion of the MMA hardcore fans was not my point - the overall ratings were.
> 
> http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/05/11/gina-carano-makes-maxims-hot-100/
> 
> ...


 
I understood what you are saying, my point is "why" she is a draw, and it isn't because of her fighting abilities. She is a very good fighter, but draws the attention for different reasons.  Same thing for Kimbo Slice, he was an internet draw that most MMA fans did not like and thought it was bad for the sport to see him getting hyped so much.  EliteXC folded because they were banking their shows on "sideshow draws" and not purely on talent.  Kimbo used to have his opponents handpicked for him to build him up even more and then lost to a B or C level fighter it REALLY showed the fault of their logic.


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## MattJ (May 16, 2009)

More organizations are attepting to draw fans with female MMA:

http://mma.fanhouse.com/2009/05/15/kerry-vera-beats-leslie-smith-in-classic-slugfest-at-bellator-7/


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 16, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> I understood what you are saying, my point is "why" she is a draw, and it isn't because of her fighting abilities. She is a very good fighter, but draws the attention for different reasons. Same thing for Kimbo Slice, he was an internet draw that most MMA fans did not like and thought it was bad for the sport to see him getting hyped so much. EliteXC folded because they were banking their shows on "sideshow draws" and not purely on talent. Kimbo used to have his opponents handpicked for him to build him up even more and then lost to a B or C level fighter it REALLY showed the fault of their logic.


 
Even when Kimbo was doing his "Street Fights" he had ridiculous rules, well smart for him, but ridiculous in that all manner of takedown and grappling was illegal, kicks were illegal, knees and elbows were illegal, the knowckdown rule was a 30 second count...done by his guys, I really do not think Kimbo would do good in any type of fight other then those rules... he has a strong body that can take punches when he is prepared for them and does not have to worry about kicks or other weapons... has good stamina, good recovery, and a strong punch. He simply is a joke.
Gina on the other hand has good skills, She has been fighting Thai style kickboxing fights for well over a decade, she has put the time in, the sweat, blood, everything. She might also be blessed with good looks, and an ability to market herself, but please do not confuse these two opposite ends of the spectrum fighters with each other. I will agree however that a large portion of her draw on elitexc was due to the marketing of her sex appeal, but her skills are no joke.


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## Tez3 (May 17, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Even when Kimbo was doing his "Street Fights" he had ridiculous rules, well smart for him, but ridiculous in that all manner of takedown and grappling was illegal, kicks were illegal, knees and elbows were illegal, the knowckdown rule was a 30 second count...done by his guys, I really do not think Kimbo would do good in any type of fight other then those rules... he has a strong body that can take punches when he is prepared for them and does not have to worry about kicks or other weapons... has good stamina, good recovery, and a strong punch. He simply is a joke.
> _Gina on the other hand has good skills, She has been fighting Thai style kickboxing fights for well over a decade, she has put the time in, the sweat, blood, everything. She might also be blessed with good looks, and an ability to market herself, but please do not confuse these two opposite ends of the spectrum fighters with each other. I will agree however that a large portion of her draw on elitexc was due to the marketing of her sex_ _appeal, but her skills are no joke.[/_quote]
> 
> 
> Her professionalism was though. her obvious skill though makes it even worst that she could never make weight for any of her fights and always came in over. If she'd been a male fighter sanctions would have been taken against her but as the 'pet' of Elite the rules were changed for her, the weight class suddenly became an 'catch' weight one and her opponent was told fight her at that weight or don't get paid. Yes I can prove that, Rosi Sexton's manager Karl Tanswell was told that. It's all very well saying well don't fight her then but when you've paid for transatlantic flights, hotels etc and you face huge debts if you don't fight what are you going to do? Feel free to contact Karl who is well known and well respected in the worldwide MA community for his views on this.


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## TheArtofDave (Jun 27, 2009)

_*Regarding female MMA, I can't speak for most "Americans" but being one myself I've been out and caught some women's MMA that was featured on a usually male oriented card.

What I saw was women who were more technically sound in take downs, submissions, and even the ground & pound was exciting to watch. A lot of the women were just as fierce, if not more so than the men, and who can blame them because they've got something to prove. They do belong in the sport regardless of views against it.

However, on the subject of why the UFC has not capitalized on the growing sport of female MMA. I don't think its got anything to do with the drawing power. If you're curious you're going to tune in if for no other reason to see history made in the world of mixed martial arts. By then it would prove to be a fast draw. Not a question of when it would draw.

The viewership would be split. 60 for 40 against. Also it might have controversy Dana White isn't ready for. I love women's MMA because its just as exciting as watching the men fight. I would love to see a UFC Women's Championship but its unlikely you'll see that any time soon.

Unless the sport becomes marketable enough for the UFC to feature, and create a division for it. You're likely going to have to go outside of the UFC to watch it.
*_


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## tallgeese (Jun 29, 2009)

The company's marketing will take it where the money is.  As soon as someone can show them that it will sell pay per views I'm sure it will be on the card.

That's the bottom line for Zuffa, not anything to do with how we look at women in society ect.  If the other circuits start to show a measurable profit due to it then expect the UFC to follow suit.  

If it continues to be unpopular from a ticket selling standpoint then it probably won't break in anytime soon.  Nothing against Dana or the organization, they're just following the dollars.


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