# promotion to BB



## Jdokan (Oct 13, 2008)

Interested in opinions...
My son has been studying for 10 years (all kenpo)...
I am requiring for black; combo's 1-20, & 20 of punch, club, etc...each can be a derivitive of the combo...standard stuff for most East Coast BB's...Here's the change...I am keeping each of the kata 1-6 but not the pinions....(3-5)...By this I mean as a requirement for BB....If he wants to learn 3-5...fine...but not required...

What are peoples thoughts??
I say be brutally honest...but after reading recent posts...I do expect frankness....(& I don't even know Frank )


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## JTKenpo (Oct 13, 2008)

Jdokan said:


> Interested in opinions...
> My son has been studying for 10 years (all kenpo)...
> I am requiring for black; combo's 1-20, & 20 of punch, club, etc...each can be a derivitive of the combo...standard stuff for most East Coast BB's...Here's the change...I am keeping each of the kata 1-6 but not the pinions....(3-5)...By this I mean as a requirement for BB....If he wants to learn 3-5...fine...but not required...
> 
> ...


 
I still find a lot of relevence in 3-5 pinan and still teach them.  Occasionally I think to myself that there is just too much material in the system I teach from white to black but then someone once told me a story of a gentlemen walking into a school and asking how long it took for the average person to get their black belt, without skipping a beat the instructor answered an average person doesn't get their black belt.

my 2 cents


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## terryl965 (Oct 13, 2008)

Not a Kenpo guy but why take something out that has been there?


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## almost a ghost (Oct 13, 2008)

Personally, 5 pinan was my favorite of the system, even among the "cool" BB forms. I really enjoy the bunkai of the first set of movements of 5 pinan and overall felt like more of the well rounded of the forms I did, at least for my mindset. Even though I don't study SKK anymore I still go over it once in a blue moon for nostaglia, I cringe when I see people butcher it.

I also think cutting forms out the system is the way to go, I always felt there where too much to the point of redundancy which caused a lack of bunkai application exploration. I wouldn't overload my students with the standard combos plus specific defenses against other types of attack. At BB left I'd expect them not only be be able to which Combo/DM would work best against say a grab or club but also how to modify the DM to work against it while still maintaining the overall structure of the technique.


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## kosho (Oct 14, 2008)

Hello,
         I hope this finds you well. First, If you feel as his teacher he is Black Belt level, and has under gone what you teach to that level, then thats GREAT. I know other 4th and up SKK teachers who also do not teach all the katas in that system to Black Belt. 

Myself I teach all the kata's 1-5 P, 1-5 K and many others to the Rank of Black Belt. I get crap for it as I teach to much to Black Belt. From other people. But thats my choice and my students have not issues with it.
about, 20 kata's to black belt. 6 - 8 years of training to BB. at 3 days a week in the dojo.

I think that If you can sign your name to the Cert: and Have no issues with it. Then who cares what others think. GOOD for YOU. 

I may get Crap for what I posted here, again What ever. 

Kosho


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## Jdokan (Oct 14, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> I still find a lot of relevence in 3-5 pinan and still teach them. Occasionally I think to myself that there is just too much material in the system I teach from white to black but then someone once told me a story of a gentlemen walking into a school and asking how long it took for the average person to get their black belt, without skipping a beat the instructor answered *an average person doesn't get their black belt.*
> 
> my 2 cents


 Awesome!!!!   Love this quote....

I don't want to throw them away in entirety...just for under Black....They wilkl still be part of the corriculum for him.....I do find value in the them...actually kinda like'm myself....I am exploring having less material practiced for longer periods of time...He has another 40+ years of practicing.....


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## JTKenpo (Oct 14, 2008)

Jdokan said:


> Awesome!!!! Love this quote....
> 
> I don't want to throw them away in entirety...just for under Black....They wilkl still be part of the corriculum for him.....I do find value in the them...actually kinda like'm myself....I am exploring having less material practiced for longer periods of time...He has another 40+ years of practicing.....


 

There will always be pros and cons for more or less material.  As long as YOU are happy with what you are doing.


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## Jdokan (Oct 15, 2008)

Appreciate the comments...
I am satisfied with the requirements...As far as I'm concerned he already operates at BB level...In his own school he would have already had his BB...I guess you're tougher on your own than strangers....
Anyways...again thanks for the input....


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 15, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> someone once told me a story of a gentlemen walking into a school and asking how long it took for the average person to get their black belt, without skipping a beat the instructor answered an average person doesn't get their black belt.


 
I've heard that story too. My "$0.02 cents" is that it is a stupid comment to make. I say this because isn't the black belt just an end to justify the means? People come to learn martial arts to better themselves and through the process of learning the art not only do they earn a black belt in the system but in life as well. As instructors we a charged with leading these people down the path of success. _*When they fail ,we fail*_. So it shouldn't matter whether you have 10 forms (katas) or 2. The curriculum should be set up for so it is easily learnt and retained. We shouldn't be bound by some notion that because we came up through the ranks and had a million things to learn that it's the right way. Especially if you are a commercial school owner. I was told by my current instructor that he asked Huk Planas about the order that the Parker techniques should be taught (because the old curriculum sheets say on the top "in the order to be taught") and the reply was, "it doesn't matter". Heck I know schools that teach only the techniques that are in the Parker Kenpo forms and have the others as options. I guess it all boils down to what you feel is right for your students and your school, or whether you as bound by an organization or association. :asian:


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## JTKenpo (Oct 15, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> I've heard that story too. My "$0.02 cents" is that it is a stupid comment to make. I say this because isn't the black belt just an end to justify the means? People come to learn martial arts to better themselves and through the process of learning the art not only do they earn a black belt in the system but in life as well. As instructors we a charged with leading these people down the path of success. _*When they fail ,we fail*_. So it shouldn't matter whether you have 10 forms (katas) or 2. The curriculum should be set up for so it is easily learnt and retained. We shouldn't be bound by some notion that because we came up through the ranks and had a million things to learn that it's the right way. Especially if you are a commercial school owner. I was told by my current instructor that he asked Huk Planas about the order that the Parker techniques should be taught (because the old curriculum sheets say on the top "in the order to be taught") and the reply was, "it doesn't matter". Heck I know schools that teach only the techniques that are in the Parker Kenpo forms and have the others as options. I guess it all boils down to what you feel is right for your students and your school, or whether you as bound by an organization or association. :asian:


 
Interesting post, and you are right you shouldn't be bound by what you learned as to what you teach your students.  But what does that have to do with the quote?  You are entitled not to like it or agree with it and it is not always the teachers shortcomings that cause someone not to make it to black belt.  So again what does that have to do with the price of onions?


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## RevIV (Oct 15, 2008)

well I told you before, I stopped requiring 2-5 pinan awhile ago.  Hey, will I be seeing you this weekend?


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 16, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> Interesting post, and you are right you shouldn't be bound by what you learned as to what you teach your students. But what does that have to do with the quote? You are entitled not to like it or agree with it and it is not always the teachers shortcomings that cause someone not to make it to black belt. *So again what does that have to do with the price of onions?*


 
You missed my point. I guess I wasn't clear enough? 

The quote was:



> without skipping a beat the instructor answered an average person doesn't get their black belt.


 
I replied with:



> that it is a stupid comment to make


 
Then I went on to explain my reason why I thought it was a stupid comment. Part of my answer was the following:



> People come to learn martial arts to better themselves and through the process of learning the art not only do they earn a black belt in the system but in life as well.


 
In lamens terms, it's not about us JT it's about them. Let me ask you this. Do you believe my statement or are you on board with the person who said "an average person doesn't get their black belt" ? 


I find the end of your reply interesting particularly the part when you said:



> You are entitled not to like it or agree with it and *it is not always the teachers shortcomings that cause someone not to make it to black belt*.


 

There is _some_ truth to that, due to lack of physical or mental disability. However and I'll say it again, the black belt just an end to justify the means in which we improve peoples lives regardless of how much or how little of the information we give them. If we fail in getting them to thier ultimate goal, then we failed as an instructor. I have Mr. Parker on video saying (I'm para-phrasing) "the belt test is not only a test for the students but it's also a test to see how well the instructors ability is to teach those students."


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## JTKenpo (Oct 16, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> You missed my point. I guess I wasn't clear enough?
> 
> The quote was:
> 
> ...


 
If by not make it to black belt you mean they fail the test then absolutely it falls on the instructor, but people come in and out of the ma all the time and for many different reasons.  Sometimes people get all they are going to get out of the ma (or need out of them) before they reach bb, some fall by the way side because of money, time, family matters all different reasons.  

I don't completely agree that it is just about the student and not the teacher.  Once I started teaching I gained insight into the ma much more quickly and more frequently.  Teaching makes you look at the "same old" material in a different light.  Is that selfish, I don't think so.  As for the average person not getting there bb, I agree with that sorry.  Now that doesn't mean that the bb is only for the super gifted.  Extraordinary doesn't have to mean physical prowess, but the ability to see things through long periods of time and hard work is not the norm, IMO.  I don't believe that the curriculum should be laid out so that it is easy to retain and learn, there should be hard work involved if not then it means little.


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## RevIV (Oct 16, 2008)

The average person should not get a BB without putting in above average time.  If everyone should get a black belt why test?  Why not just give them a black belt when they sign up.  it must be the belt that gives them confidence.?  A lot of the commercial schools around here do graduations now, not tests.. sounds like a party I was invited to last June where a kid "graduated" kindergarten, or the other one where he "graduated" from middle school... big whoop - talk about mediocracy.  Get a real diploma from H.S. or college and I will come to that party.  When people start talking about the instructor failing I feel like im at a EFC or a NAPMA conference -- "talk nice, dont tell them they did anything wrong, and for god sakes dont test them - kids now a days have a enough stress -  just let them take there 28 classes and give them a belt"  thats crap...  for those who do not get the 28 class comment -  8-10 classes a month - 3 months - 28 classes = new belt.  4 belts a year,  black belt in 3 years no matter if they are poor, average or exceptional students.   Now I have had students who def. fall below the average level and they EARNED their black belts but it took them close to 7 or 8 years.  They stuck it out and showed their black belt character.  
example 2:  5 kids in a class.  all come to the same classes -  4 of them are excelling and the last one is falling behind.. I take that person to the side and help him a little extra and they still do not get better.  I later find out that the other 4 were practicing (weird concept) and the other one only did his karate in class.  Must be my fault that he does not excell.


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 16, 2008)

Hmmmm, I see your point guys. 

But if those that achieve black belt are so extra-ordinary, why is it you still see black belts that look like cr@p?  

Who is to blame for that? After all don't black belt practitioners get held to a higher standard?

Is it that the instructor sucks?

What is it then?


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 16, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> IMO. I don't believe that the curriculum should be laid out so that it is easy to retain and learn, there should be hard work involved if not then it means little.


 
IMO, the ease in which one retains the material is a direct result of how it is passed on from teacher to student. Do you agree?


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## JTKenpo (Oct 16, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> Hmmmm, I see your point guys.
> 
> But if those that achieve black belt are so extra-ordinary, why is it you still see black belts that look like cr@p?
> 
> ...


 
Again, there are a meriad of reasons behind it.  If you have someone that physically can not do more but tries harder then anyone do you hold them back?


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## JTKenpo (Oct 16, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> IMO, the ease in which one retains the material is a direct result of how it is passed on from teacher to student. Do you agree?


 

I believe that to be one scenario, but some people retain material easier then others and that has nothing to do with the teacher.

I don't think you are wrong here Lance I just believe it is only one side to a multisided issue.


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 16, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> Again, there are a meriad of reasons behind it. If you have someone that physically can not do more but tries harder then anyone do you hold them back?


 
So is then the black belt just a metaphor for success?


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## JTKenpo (Oct 16, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> So is then the black belt just a metaphor for success?


 

I wish.


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## Rabu (Oct 16, 2008)

A black belt, in most cases, simply indicates that you paid alot of money to someone.

When I was practicing Kempo, I knew and taught 53 empty hand forms.  I was never promoted to black belt.  I was asked to open or run schools for people on a number of occasions, but, since I had only praticed for ten years at that point, I was not 'promotable' until I had run the school for them without taking any pay and giving them all the money for a while.

Apparently I had to 'season' before I could be considered for promotion or recognition.  Not sure what season could mean.



Not bitter at all.

Suffice it to say, I chose to practice elsewhere and with another art.  Best of luck to the hopefuls out there.

Rob


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## Matt (Oct 23, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> I've heard that story too. My "$0.02 cents" is that it is a stupid comment to make. I say this because isn't the black belt just an end to justify the means? People come to learn martial arts to better themselves and through the process of learning the art not only do they earn a black belt in the system but in life as well. As instructors we a charged with leading these people down the path of success. _*When they fail ,we fail*_.



As a Math/Science (and sometimes Physical Education) teacher who believes heartily in differentiation in curriculum, I think you are missing the point. Just because the person doesn't get a certain piece of cloth doesn't mean that they aren't improving. Average people don't get doctorates in astrophysics either. It's probably a good thing. 

Not having a Ph.D. doesn't make you a bad person, it just doesn't make you Dr. So-and-so. It's okay. The black belt is a benchmark, not necessarily a minimum standard.


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 24, 2008)

Matt said:


> As a Math/Science (and sometimes Physical Education) teacher who believes heartily in differentiation in curriculum, I think you are missing the point. Just because the person doesn't get a certain piece of cloth doesn't mean that they aren't improving. Average people don't get doctorates in astrophysics either. It's probably a good thing.
> 
> Not having a Ph.D. doesn't make you a bad person, it just doesn't make you Dr. So-and-so. It's okay. The black belt is a benchmark, not necessarily a minimum standard.


 

The "_when they fail, we fail_" statement was in not in regard to constant never-ending improvement, but in actually passing their black belt exam. If they can't do it because they cannot perform the required material or are not able to explain the principles they are using then indeed the instructor has failed that student, IMO

I understand that different students have different needs and that students retain the material in different ways. However there is a fairly standard testing procedure in place at most martial arts schools/studios with outlined requirements to achieve certain belt standards. Each student should be familiar with them and what it takes to earn a belt in that particular school/studio.

Interesting point you've spawned Matt. It lends itself to the questions:

How many studio/school owners make an outline for every class they teach? How many provide a syllubus for their students? How many outline what they will be doing for the complete year so is to know when promotions will be conducted giving the students a timeline?

Remember we are "martial arts professionals" We are not just "teaching Karate", it's more than that. We owe it to ourselves as well as our students that they are prepared to meet the goals they set for themselves as well as the ones we set for them.


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## JTKenpo (Oct 24, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> Interesting point you've spawned Matt. It lends itself to the questions:
> 
> How many studio/school owners make an outline for every class they teach? How many provide a syllubus for their students? How many outline what they will be doing for the complete year so is to know when promotions will be conducted giving the students a timeline?
> 
> Remember we are "martial arts professionals" We are not just "teaching Karate", it's more than that. We owe it to ourselves as well as our students that they are prepared to meet the goals they set for themselves as well as the ones we set for them.


 

At one point I outlined every class I taught for the upcoming week, unfortunately that just got too time consuming, so before each class I outline it with my instructors then after everyone has warmed up and stretched out I outline the days plan to the class so everyone knows what to expect.

Syllabus' in any parker school should be a non issue.  There are several journals available for every rank in the system.  Unfortunately that is not so in other Kempo styles.  When I was coming up through the ranks we were given a sheet telling us what was required in that rank, again unfortunately there were no sheets given out after purple belt.  So one of my missions for my current rank was to document the system I teach.  It took about a year but I created journals, not just one sheet, for every rank including black belt.  I'm currently working on 2nd degree but have shelved it for awhile.  I also have 3' boards with all the techniques and forms required for ranks white through 2nd brown (no 1st brown as I use it as a review and training for black belt) displayed on the wall in the dojo.  It not only lets you know what is ahead but aids in reviewing techniques.

As far as promotions go I test on a when ready basis.  When there are enough people to warrant a test I bring them all together at a given time for the test.  I don't set people up to fail by putting them on a test they are not ready for, but they still have to perform up to par.  

I agree whole heartedly that being a martial arts professional is different then just teaching karate.  I just wish we would be paid what we are worth as professionals.  I know of no other profession that takes so long to get an understanding of and become proficient and yet is paid so small a sum.  Would anyone else go to school for 10 years to make what we make?  

Sorry, don't answer that it will just derail the thread.  I'll get down off my soapbox now and go back in the corner.


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 24, 2008)

> I know of no other profession that takes so long to get an understanding of and become proficient and yet is paid so small a sum.


 
I do...Paramedics

Hehe and I'm both:headbangin:


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 24, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> As far as promotions go I test on a when ready basis. When there are enough people to warrant a test I bring them all together at a given time for the test. I don't set people up to fail by putting them on a test they are not ready for, but they still have to perform up to par.


 
I used to do it like that when I began my school in the early 90's. It was the way I came up through the ranks. 

I modeled my school after the academic method. I created a syllubus and let the students know when each scheduled belt test was (got that idea from John Graden). I then changed the way I evaluated my students by administering "step tests" every 5 weeks. After successfully completing all three step tests the were ready for promotion. If they were not, we added an extra cycle and the got 4 step exams instead of three. They'd just be promoted after the others in their class (sometimes prodding them to do better on their step exams). 

So it really isn't setting students up for failure by scheduling tests throughout the year, it just let's them know when it's coming. Nothing says you have to pass them though. Same stringent guidelines, just done periodically. It also cuts down on the amount of material they are performing each time they test. So basically they are tested on sections of the curriculum they are studying. I found it's easier for the student to digest then having them run it all. It's more cost effective too from a time stand point.

Anyway...:asian:


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## JTKenpo (Oct 24, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> So it really isn't setting students up for failure by scheduling tests throughout the year, it just let's them know when it's coming. Nothing says you have to pass them though. Same stringent guidelines, just done periodically. It also cuts down on the amount of material they are performing each time they test. So basically they are tested on sections of the curriculum they are studying. I found it's easier for the student to digest then having them run it all. It's more cost effective too from a time stand point.
> 
> Anyway...:asian:


 
I wasn't implying that set test dates through out the year are setting students up to fail, I was stating that putting them on a test they were not ready for was setting them up to fail.  No accusation, just a statement.


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## JTKenpo (Oct 24, 2008)

kenpo3631 said:


> I do...Paramedics
> 
> Hehe and I'm both:headbangin:


 

Yeah........we put in more time then doctors but you can make more asking if you would like fries with that, yeah.....


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 24, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> I wasn't implying that set test dates through out the year are setting students up to fail, I was stating that putting them on a test they were not ready for was setting them up to fail. No accusation, just a statement.


 
No accusations assumed 




> I was stating that putting them on a test they were not ready for was setting them up to fail.


 
Well like I said, nothing says you have to pass them through. Besides, if they did fail it would be a great time to reflect upon them the value of indomitable spirit as well as the reasons why it is important to practice at home. My students were also able to do a retest the following week. Now I coupled that with an  extra help private lesson or two to get them up to snuff.


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## KempoShaun (Oct 24, 2008)

I've reverted to teaching the pinans/heians the "traditional" way, shotokan/wado type versions, simply because, when taught that way, they train you for the "master" form of Kushanku (a kata I believe should be mandatory for all systems, but that's another story entirely), Kushanku/kanku-dai is actually a fairly long form, 72 - 80 moves depending on your lineage, and was actually taught before the pinan/heian series, but to make it more palatable, it was broken down into 5 "smaller" forms to better grasp the bunkai and subtleties of each forms teachings. I believe if more people learned Kushanku, they would have a much better understanding and appreciation for the pinan katas. This, of course, meant I had to deviate from the SKK lineage more back towards the Japanese traditional lineage in which the pinans are rather different, for instance 1 pinan and 2 pinan are not the 1 and 2 pinan taught in the SKK lineage, though 3, 4 and 5 are quite similar. I'm actually writing an article on Kushanku for a new Martial Arts Magazine I'm general manager of that starts getting distributed (for free!) in January, if anyone is interested in the article, or the newsletter, just let me know and I can give you a link.  That being said, if you feel he has learned all he should before black belt, what you would have any other students learn, then I see no problem with the promotion, congrats!!!


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## still learning (Oct 24, 2008)

Hello, Better to be "damm good" in one form...than know 20!

Most fighters will tell you they have perfective less than five techniques or moves to be successful....the rest?   

The dictionary is BIG.....yet the one letter "F" is powerful...so is "sorry"

Do you need to teach everything?  .....todays students..has many other things in there lives...families, work, hobbies, and etc...

It takes about 2000 repetitons...to build memory without thinking...natural reflexes.....or one time in a close call!

Knowing a thousand moves.....is knowledge.....BUT can you react according?  a thousand different times?

Best to run away?  .....how many times do we have to be told this?

Football can have two dozen plays or more? ....yet there is a few that works better most times!   Each play much be flexible...like all martial art techniques..

Aloha,  Form you own opinions ( limited to 2)


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## RevIV (Oct 24, 2008)

I have 5 set under black belt tests a year.  all planned out in the first week of Jan.  I post a sign 1 month before the test to tell the students when it is.  I have to do this because I also must do 5 tests at my other locations- plus 2 tournaments and black belt testing.. lets not forget seminars and the fact that my family needs me every once in awhile too.  Very few people have ever tested 5 times in a year..  Maybe someone who has transferred over from another style or so.  the usual student does 3 or 4 if they are really working hard.  I have had green belts stay green for an entire year and others who learned and performed everything they needed and tested in 3 months.  Also- they must demonstrate from white belt to current rank at each test and do it properly.


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## JTKenpo (Oct 25, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, Better to be "damm good" in one form...than know 20!
> 
> Most fighters will tell you they have perfective less than five techniques or moves to be successful....the rest?
> 
> ...


 
I get two opinions, thats a hell of a lot more then my wife gives me!!

Ok but seriously I absolutely agree with your post.  The one thing it does not take into consideration though about those hundred different techniques is that they are only a handful of ideas and basics rearranged into a different technique.  When you hear about master key movements all that is is the underlying core principles of any given system.  You might hear ak people talk about their system being based off of 5 swords and the same can be said for skk and combo #3.  Now before you go off slamming me about that statement take a good hard look at your material and find those techniques rearranged in a dozen other techniques.  Thats all I'm saying, and yes there are other techs that do the same but my point is that it isn't a hundred different ideas just a couple ideas arranged in different manners.  And yes I understand this is over simplifying things but it gets the point across.  I think?


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 25, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> I get two opinions, thats a hell of a lot more then my wife gives me!!
> 
> Ok but seriously I absolutely agree with your post. The one thing it does not take into consideration though about those hundred different techniques is that they are only a handful of ideas and basics rearranged into a different technique. When you hear about master key movements all that is is the underlying core principles of any given system. You might hear ak people talk about their system being based off of 5 swords and the same can be said for skk and combo #3. Now before you go off slamming me about that statement take a good hard look at your material and find those techniques rearranged in a dozen other techniques. Thats all I'm saying, and yes there are other techs that do the same but my point is that it isn't a hundred different ideas just a couple ideas arranged in different manners. And yes I understand this is over simplifying things but it gets the point across. I think?


 
Many truths lie in sophisticated simplicity 
                                               ~_Ed Parker_
*the Zen of Kenpo*


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## Kenpo17 (Jan 19, 2009)

My thoughts on this is wow, lots to learn! However if someone, like your son is willing to put a great effort toward his Kenpo training, sure he should be able to achieve this.  You don't know how many people I talk to, mainly 12,13,14, and 15 year olds that tell me they only take Kenpo, or any kind of Martial Arts because their parents make them.  They wouldn't take Kenpo otherwise.  It makes me ill to hear this because learning any Martial Arts should be something you want to learn for yourself, not because someone is making you take it.  Anyway, when I tested for my 1st Dan. I needed to know forms (Katas) 1-4, including short forms 1,2,and 3.  Then I needed to know around 60 techniques, and at the test, we spar, we point spar.  So, what I am trying to sum up here is that I think it is great your son is so into Kenpo on his own, and tell him to keep going with it, even after he recieves his Black Belt because there is so much more in the art to learn.


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