# opening new dojo - living there to save rent?



## 333kenshin

Hi folks,
I'm a 2nd dan karate instructor aspiring to open a branch studio of the school where I currently teach and train. I've heard 2 common pieces of advice across several discussion boards about starting up a studio:

1) start small by renting a room per hour in say a school, gym, or church to build up numbers before signing a lease for dedicated store space. This totally makes sense from a cash flow perspective - paying for capacity you're not in position to use is just burning through savings.

2) the most cost-effective way to draw in more clientele is location conducive to foot traffic with compelling signage. Ideally next to an anchor like a supermarket or bookstore

Unfortunately these individually valid bits of advice seem to contradict one another, since a rented room in a school/gym/church limits you on both foot traffic and signage.

One method I've heard of squaring that circle is where the studio has a back room or attic space where the instructor actually lives in order to save on rent. I wouldn't want to do this long term, but could imagine doing it for the first year or so of operations while the business is finding its legs and getting enrollment numbers up.

Can anyone comment on the concerns with regards to legality, logistics, ethics, and perception in such an arrangement? Anecdotes of both successful and failed instances, and what were decisive (and perhaps unforeseen) factors would be great.

Thanks!
-Dave

PS: I'm mindful of the fact that, given the recent bankruptcy of Boy Scouts of America, there is an added need for vigilance against any form of impropriety where kids are involved. The space will be marked Private, remain locked during all business hours, and accessible to only myself.


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## Tez3

333kenshin said:


> given the recent bankruptcy of Boy Scouts of America,




That's very bad news to hear on Thinking/Founder's Day.


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## Headhunter

Find the cheapest location possible then see if you get any students then go from there.


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## Gweilo

Another angle is private lessons or 1 to 1s, for wealthy clients you can charge upto £75 per 1.5 hour class


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## Buka

Living in the dojo is tough. I've had plenty of guys over various times in our careers who lived in my dojo for various financial and personal reasons.

If you can avoid it I think it would be better for you. But I know how it goes, so all the best if that's the way it shakes out.


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## Flying Crane

If you live in the dojo can you:

Take a shower and maintain hygiene?

Have a way to cook/prepare decent meals, more than just a microwave and a coffee maker?

Are there local laws or rental clauses against living in a commercial location?  This could put the lease in danger.

Some things you might need to navigate.


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## isshinryuronin

I spent several months living in a dojo.  Legally, probably not, but who cares?  I never ate so healthy in my life during that time.  Ethics?  Why not do it?  Perception?  What's better than learning from someone who eats, sleeps and lives karate?
As a young male, I found the arrangement quite convenient.  Plus, guys that age are not that picky and able to cope with many situations their mothers' would have a fit about.  It's all part of the adventure.  Plus, the dojo becomes more personal to you.

Now, I must say, that experience was over 40 yrs ago in the wild and loosey-goosey West.  Didn't have a TV and no such thing as cell phones or personal computers.  Real life was so much more exciting.  Perhaps things would be different now.


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## Kung Fu Wang

If you let your hobby to influence your personal life, you may end with destroying your hobby.


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## dvcochran

333kenshin said:


> Hi folks,
> I'm a 2nd dan karate instructor aspiring to open a branch studio of the school where I currently teach and train. I've heard 2 common pieces of advice across several discussion boards about starting up a studio:
> 
> 1) start small by renting a room per hour in say a school, gym, or church to build up numbers before signing a lease for dedicated store space. This totally makes sense from a cash flow perspective - paying for capacity you're not in position to use is just burning through savings.
> 
> 2) the most cost-effective way to draw in more clientele is location conducive to foot traffic with compelling signage. Ideally next to an anchor like a supermarket or bookstore
> 
> Unfortunately these individually valid bits of advice seem to contradict one another, since a rented room in a school/gym/church limits you on both foot traffic and signage.
> 
> One method I've heard of squaring that circle is where the studio has a back room or attic space where the instructor actually lives in order to save on rent. I wouldn't want to do this long term, but could imagine doing it for the first year or so of operations while the business is finding its legs and getting enrollment numbers up.
> 
> Can anyone comment on the concerns with regards to legality, logistics, ethics, and perception in such an arrangement? Anecdotes of both successful and failed instances, and what were decisive (and perhaps unforeseen) factors would be great.
> 
> Thanks!
> -Dave
> 
> PS: I'm mindful of the fact that, given the recent bankruptcy of Boy Scouts of America, there is an added need for vigilance against any form of impropriety where kids are involved. The space will be marked Private, remain locked during all business hours, and accessible to only myself.



You would have to dig back a ways but I have made several posts about school startups. I get excited when I hear about a new school. Very good for the industry.

To keep it simple let's keep the discussion to a fully commercial, rental startup since this sounds like what you envision. 

Let's assume you have done the due diligence and figured out where your startup capital is coming from, location requirements, and created your budget/financials/flow. 
Once you have found a location the first thing you will have to do is read or have the contract interpreted (attorney) to see if squatting is allowed. Most the time it is Not. In other words, the square footage can NOT be modified to include permanent residence.
Can this and Is this often done/abused, regularly? Yes, I think so. Staying a night or two in a sleeping bag or on a cot is not squatting. However this holds the same risks of eviction and liability if you were found negligent.

If squatting is allowed you will likely find that your insurance will skyrocket. I do not specifically know all the reasons but, as a retail space owner, I know this to be true. 

Now, since you mentioned the Boy Scouts I am assuming you are aware that perception is Very much reality in marketing and publicity. Little Johnny's mom finding out there is a bed or bedroom in the back of the dojo/dojang could quickly spiral right into bankruptcy. It could easily create a very precarious liability slope. 

In a very few exceptions I think it could work fine. For example I have seen schools that are/were the garage of a house that has been modified/expanded to be very nice dojos/dojangs. The one I reference the most is (Jim Welch in Al). He is an old friend. In the wall that joins the house and garage/dojang there is NO thru-door. The only way in/out is the front or back door which is required by the fire marshall. Commercial glass front and well lit. In no way seedy.

If I have not said it already, welcome to the Forum. It is a great place.
I wish you all the best and hope to hear more from you. I will be glad to answer any questions I can.


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## isshinryuronin

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you let your hobby to influence your personal life, you may end with destroying your hobby.


Karate is a hobby?  For most, but not for me and many others on this site.  It has been the best influence on my personal life.


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## WaterGal

Most commercial units aren't really set up to live in. You might have an office you could set up a fold-out couch in, but they usually don't have a kitchen or shower/bath. You'll probably get sick of living like that pretty quickly. Also, your landlord might not be keen, so you'd have to be discreet about it.

However, I did say _most _commercial spaces. We've toyed around with the idea of opening a second location a few times, and I remember seeing an older building for rent a while back that had an upstairs office area with a full bath and kitchen, which was kind of obviously actually an apartment from the days when a shopkeeper would live above their shop. It struck me as kind of a cool romantic idea, but would definitely not lend itself to good work/life balance lol.


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## Tez3

Flying Crane said:


> Have a way to cook/prepare decent meals, more than just a microwave and a coffee maker?




To be fair, a lot of singles just use them wherever they live.


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## 333kenshin

Very grateful for the speediness and quality of the feedback - it's quite clear that living in the dojo raises all sorts of issues both external (zoning, propriety) and internal (psychological boundaries, hygiene and nutrition). I'm looking instead into renting space by the hour out of a gym, dance studio, or such.
Thanks!
-Dave


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

333kenshin said:


> Very grateful for the speediness and quality of the feedback - it's quite clear that living in the dojo raises all sorts of issues both external (zoning, propriety) and internal (psychological boundaries, hygiene and nutrition). I'm looking instead into renting space by the hour out of a gym, dance studio, or such.
> Thanks!
> -Dave


Something @gpseymour is doing which might be an option, is finding a dojo already in existence, and seeing if you can teach your art in between/before or after their classes, as a collaboration. Where, say, they get 50% of your tuition (and possibly more clients for their classes), but in exchange you don't have to worry about renting the place. 

At least to start.


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## 333kenshin

Yeah, one of the dance studios I inquired into renting space from said that's their model - I would join their team of instructors (includes acro, pilates, salsa, ballroom, and hiphop) and my class would be one of several options kids could choose from each 8-week term. I actually think being the one martial arts instructor among dancers might work in my favor in terms of standing out compared to being a karateka among a sea of martial artists.


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## Gerry Seymour

333kenshin said:


> Yeah, one of the dance studios I inquired into renting space from said that's their model - I would join their team of instructors (includes acro, pilates, salsa, ballroom, and hiphop) and my class would be one of several options kids could choose from each 8-week term. I actually think being the one martial arts instructor among dancers might work in my favor in terms of standing out compared to being a karateka among a sea of martial artists.


In my case, I teach an art that's entirely different from the school's primary art (theirs is a very traditional Okinawan Karatedo, mine is a semi-traditional hybrid Aikido art). It allows some more collaboration (though less than I'd hoped, mostly because I chose a really unpopular time slot: 8:15 Saturday morning). There's a sense of community from being around other martial artists, and you can combine forces on marketing focus. If you wanted - and they are open to it - you might even eventually become more of a partner to the owner.

Working with a dance school could have some different benefits, especially with drawing in youth students (which I don't teach, and really don't want to at this point). I'd be concerned that parents might see it as another play option (rather than a learning option, which is mostly just about parental perception), which is more about me than about the kids or the situation.


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## dvcochran

333kenshin said:


> Yeah, one of the dance studios I inquired into renting space from said that's their model - I would join their team of instructors (includes acro, pilates, salsa, ballroom, and hiphop) and my class would be one of several options kids could choose from each 8-week term. I actually think being the one martial arts instructor among dancers might work in my favor in terms of standing out compared to being a karateka among a sea of martial artists.


So does this mean you would become an employee thereby they would pay You. Based on a number of student based commission program or such?


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## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> In my case, I teach an art that's entirely different from the school's primary art (theirs is a very traditional Okinawan Karatedo, mine is a semi-traditional hybrid Aikido art). It allows some more collaboration (though less than I'd hoped, mostly because I chose a really unpopular time slot: 8:15 Saturday morning). There's a sense of community from being around other martial artists, and you can combine forces on marketing focus. If you wanted - and they are open to it - you might even eventually become more of a partner to the owner.
> 
> Working with a dance school could have some different benefits, especially with drawing in youth students (which I don't teach, and really don't want to at this point). I'd be concerned that parents might see it as another play option (rather than a learning option, which is mostly just about parental perception), which is more about me than about the kids or the situation.


Did you bring a contingent of students or did you start your Saturday class from scratch? I am curious because I have gotten inquiries about a early morning Saturday class but the two times I put out a signup sheet to see who would actually show up it was left empty.


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## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Did you bring a contingent of students or did you start your Saturday class from scratch? I am curious because I have gotten inquiries about a early morning Saturday class but the two times I put out a signup sheet to see who would actually show up it was left empty.


I started from scratch. An early class on Saturdays is pretty unpopular. When I taught variously at 9AM, 10AM and 10:30 AM, I had much more interest. If there wasn't a yudansha class at 10, I'd move mine.

If you're considering a Saturday class, start with an occasional special class (maybe focus on bunkai from one kata, or something). See who'll show up. If you get decent attendance (whatever that means to you), then you can probably build attendance for a regular class. I started my first Saturday class with a self-defense seminar series at the same time (9AM) over 4 successive Saturdays. Enough people showed up for all sessions that I knew I could probably get some of them to show up for a regular class.


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## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> I started from scratch. An early class on Saturdays is pretty unpopular. When I taught variously at 9AM, 10AM and 10:30 AM, I had much more interest. If there wasn't a yudansha class at 10, I'd move mine.
> 
> If you're considering a Saturday class, start with an occasional special class (maybe focus on bunkai from one kata, or something). See who'll show up. If you get decent attendance (whatever that means to you), then you can probably build attendance for a regular class. I started my first Saturday class with a self-defense seminar series at the same time (9AM) over 4 successive Saturdays. Enough people showed up for all sessions that I knew I could probably get some of them to show up for a regular class.


We have had a 10:30-12:00 class for a long time. I have had enquiries about an 8:00 or 8:30 class but it has never gotten off the ground. 
Way back when I was training for the circuit, I had a 6:00am class because if fit my schedule. We did have a decent amount of people show up.


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## WaterGal

Early classes can work, depending. We tried have a 9am Saturday kids class and a... maybe 1pm adult class, and they were both ghost towns, but the ones in the middle were fine. Then we rearranged the schedule so we had a couple of adult classes in the morning starting at 9am, and kids classes after that, and the turnout was much better. I think adults want to get up early (maybe not too early though!) and get their workout out of the way before chilling out, while kids like to sleep in or watch cartoons in the morning and then go have a fun class with their friends after lunch.


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## WaterGal

dvcochran said:


> So does this mean you would become an employee thereby they would pay You. Based on a number of student based commission program or such?



FWIW, we have an instructor that also teaches a class at a rec center, and that's what they do. They pay $X/student as an independent contractor. It's some cut of the tuition the student pays, like 1/2 or 2/3, I don't recall the exact split.


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## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> We have had a 10:30-12:00 class for a long time. I have had enquiries about an 8:00 or 8:30 class but it has never gotten off the ground.
> Way back when I was training for the circuit, I had a 6:00am class because if fit my schedule. We did have a decent amount of people show up.


Heck, if folks are asking, I'd give it a go with something temporary. Folks are more likely to rouse themselves for a short-term commitment, so if turnout is bad, it's probably going to be worse for the ongoing class.


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## Gerry Seymour

WaterGal said:


> FWIW, we have an instructor that also teaches a class at a rec center, and that's what they do. They pay $X/student as an independent contractor. It's some cut of the tuition the student pays, like 1/2 or 2/3, I don't recall the exact split.


The rec center I taught at had two options. You could rent the room per hour (something like $15/hour) and keep all income, or you let them take registration and they kept 25%.


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## marques

I would not mind training (or giving trainings) in a backyard (if it was not for the weather). Garage or adapted room would be a better cheap alternative.

Whatever you decide, I would advise to make it self sufficient. You could give your time, at best, but other costs must be paid by students. Your offer is for them. Spend as much as they can pay.

Very few make any significant money in martial arts, so investing now for future profit may work, but it is risky. Focus on your main job. Give martial training a try, as a side job or hobby. If it goes well, it could become the main job... but that is a big step.


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## 333kenshin

dvcochran said:


> So does this mean you would become an employee thereby they would pay You. Based on a number of student based commission program or such?



Good question - I need to get more details from them. The sense I get is that if they like my teaching style, they contract me at a fixed hourly rate regardless of student count. Obviously I have to hold my own in terms of the class being good enough to merit renewal into the next session. It's an interesting model, contrasted to most of the other places I've reached out to being based on renting the space at a fixed dollar price per hour and they not playing any role in finding students. I wonder if I could collaborate with them initially for a while as a form of lead generation, but I'm not sure if there are ethical concerns around such an approach. Of course that question is moot in the likely case their contract features a non-compete clause.


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## dvcochran

333kenshin said:


> Good question - I need to get more details from them. The sense I get is that if they like my teaching style, they contract me at a fixed hourly rate regardless of student count. Obviously I have to hold my own in terms of the class being good enough to merit renewal into the next session. It's an interesting model, contrasted to most of the other places I've reached out to being based on renting the space at a fixed dollar price per hour and they not playing any role in finding students. I wonder if I could collaborate with them initially for a while as a form of lead generation, but I'm not sure if there are ethical concerns around such an approach. Of course that question is moot in the likely case their contract features a non-compete clause.


Would this space you 'rent' be in an active gym or sport complex? If so I think collaboration is a very good idea and, assuming you have a good product, a win-win for both sides. If done properly, this could be something done on a long term basis and save both sides money. Something you can take to the negotiation table if necessary. 
If you rent space by the hour, do you always know what day and times you will have the space? This is something very important when promoting your business most of the time. Revolving hours would be hard(er) on drawing clientele. 
If you are renting from an existing MA location I would think a 'non-compete' the way you describe it could be tenuous. If the other instructor is open minded, forward thinking, and confident in is craft I could see real advantage in 'adding' another style to the whole products offering. If the other instructor is an 'ancient Chinese secret' guy, I imagine it could be troublesome.


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## jobo

333kenshin said:


> Good question - I need to get more details from them. The sense I get is that if they like my teaching style, they contract me at a fixed hourly rate regardless of student count. Obviously I have to hold my own in terms of the class being good enough to merit renewal into the next session. It's an interesting model, contrasted to most of the other places I've reached out to being based on renting the space at a fixed dollar price per hour and they not playing any role in finding students. I wonder if I could collaborate with them initially for a while as a form of lead generation, but I'm not sure if there are ethical concerns around such an approach. Of course that question is moot in the likely case their contract features a non-compete clause.


 i suspect that making any money teaching ma, with out having a good amount of money to invest is tricky, and even then.

if you cant afford to rent a space and a home, then you havent got enough cash put by to invest AND when it all goes '''' up youve nowhere to live


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## Drobison491

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Something @gpseymour is doing which might be an option, is finding a dojo already in existence, and seeing if you can teach your art in between/before or after their classes, as a collaboration. Where, say, they get 50% of your tuition (and possibly more clients for their classes), but in exchange you don't have to worry about renting the place.
> 
> At least to start.




That's what my instructor does.  He rents the space from an Aikido school, though I don't know the details of the arrangement


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## GojuTommy

333kenshin said:


> Hi folks,
> I'm a 2nd dan karate instructor aspiring to open a branch studio of the school where I currently teach and train. I've heard 2 common pieces of advice across several discussion boards about starting up a studio:
> 
> 1) start small by renting a room per hour in say a school, gym, or church to build up numbers before signing a lease for dedicated store space. This totally makes sense from a cash flow perspective - paying for capacity you're not in position to use is just burning through savings.
> 
> 2) the most cost-effective way to draw in more clientele is location conducive to foot traffic with compelling signage. Ideally next to an anchor like a supermarket or bookstore
> 
> Unfortunately these individually valid bits of advice seem to contradict one another, since a rented room in a school/gym/church limits you on both foot traffic and signage.
> 
> One method I've heard of squaring that circle is where the studio has a back room or attic space where the instructor actually lives in order to save on rent. I wouldn't want to do this long term, but could imagine doing it for the first year or so of operations while the business is finding its legs and getting enrollment numbers up.
> 
> Can anyone comment on the concerns with regards to legality, logistics, ethics, and perception in such an arrangement? Anecdotes of both successful and failed instances, and what were decisive (and perhaps unforeseen) factors would be great.
> 
> Thanks!
> -Dave
> 
> PS: I'm mindful of the fact that, given the recent bankruptcy of Boy Scouts of America, there is an added need for vigilance against any form of impropriety where kids are involved. The space will be marked Private, remain locked during all business hours, and accessible to only myself.


Those two pieces of advice aren’t necessarily meant to be taken and used together. More of here are two separate pieces of advice.

As to living in the dojo in some way, honestly it mostly comes down to zoning and legality.

You can’t just buy or rent a property and decide to live there or run a commercial business out of it. At least not here in the US. You can get fined for living in your dojo if your dojo is in a strip mall space, not only could you get a fine from the city but you could invalidate your lease and be kicked out of the space.

But ideally yes, that would be the best way to do it.
That was my plan. My home is large and actually dual zoned so I was planning to open a dojo in the basement(which already has its own entrance.) couple things came up including my GF doing her PhD half way across the country so now that’s not happening.


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## Gyakuto

I wonder what happened to 333kenshin’s venture?


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## WaterGal

Gyakuto said:


> I wonder what happened to 333kenshin’s venture?


Considering the timing (their original post was February 22, 2020), probably nothing. Hopefully nothing - I know (well, Facebook know) somebody who signed a lease on a much bigger and more expensive facility around that time, and ended up going out of business as a result.


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