# Rear Leg Side Kick



## skribs (Apr 6, 2020)

I've been thinking about the rear leg side kick over the last week or so.  It's one of the first kicks you learn in a lot of kicking arts.  It's one of the "basic kicks".  But the rear-leg side kick is also generally found to be a slow kick by a lot of people, especially compared to the front and roundhouse kick.  It might be a strong kick - especially in terms of it's pushing power - but if you don't have the speed to land it, then it doesn't really make sense.  However, I've come up with these uses for the kick:


As a training tool to better understand the front leg side kick, back kick, and hook kick.  Yes, those will be done different (especially when you learn more about how a back kick actually works instead of doing a turning side kick), but we teach the basic principle of the turning side kick before moving onto the black belt much later.
If you chamber a front kick and your opponent moves to the outside, you can switch to a side kick.
If you do a roundhouse kick with follow through and bounce your foot off the ground, you put yourself into the chamber position of the side kick.
If your opponent dodges a crescent kick, you can chamber and throw a side kick instead of putting your foot down.  I catch a *lot* of people with this combo.
I've been working on smoothing out the motion of the side kick, and now I'm nearly as fast as my front kick and actually faster than my roundhouse.  It's not got the same pushing power as the full chamber motion, but I feel it would impact harder in addition to being faster.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2020)

Will you use the cross as your 1st punch? You use jab to set up cross.

The rear leg side kick is just like the cross, both require set up. It should be used as the 2nd move instead of the 1st move.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 7, 2020)

IMO basic sparring strategy dictates that combinations are initiated with the lead hand or foot. (Note this is "Basic" more advanced strategies can violate basic theory in order to be less predictable)


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## wab25 (Apr 7, 2020)

Its all about the setup. If you just throw it, you might as well tell them first. "Hey, here comes my rear leg side kick, be ready." But, if you set it up right, you will get surprise added to the power. 



skribs said:


> If you chamber a front kick and your opponent moves to the outside, you can switch to a side kick.



I use a variation of this idea. If I chamber a front kick, then all I need to do is pivot on the ball of my root foot, and it can become a side kick. I like using the front snap kick a lot, with the rear leg. If I can score with it, great... but I really want to get them used to seeing my snap kick and get comfortable that they can deal with it. 

I have found that with some folks, they like to block it using their arms. Then, they try to counter punch me, before the foot gets back down. Here I will give them a little more distance, even if my kick won't have power when it reaches them, in order to get them to have to reach or move in a little farther for their counter. Now that they are committed to moving in quickly after the block... I chamber the kick, then pivot on the root foot, and throw the side kick. When it works, they see me chamber for the front kick, which they go to block and move in for the counter... however, their block, happened when I pivoted, the side kick comes in just behind their block... and I get the added benefit of them quickly moving into it, hoping for their counter shot.

Other times, people like to get an idea of how far I can reach with my front kick. Then they will move back just enough to avoid it, to then move back in. When they get comfortable with that distance... I add the pivot, and turn it into a side kick, which reaches them, where the front kick won't.

Both of these setups, rely on them seeing the front kick a lot, and not seeing the side kick. Once they know you are looking for a rear leg side kick, you have lost the set up... for the side kick. But, you have them set up for something else... The success of a technique is not always if it scores. If the technique does not score, but sets up a scoring opportunity... I call it a success.


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## JP3 (Apr 7, 2020)

Another thing is that, like you aready do with the crescent-to-side kick same-leg kick combo, you can conceal what kick is coming in the same manner... i.e. Bill Wallace style.  I used a rear leg front kick, same leg roundhouse or side kick combo very effectively IMO for years as people would generally commit to defending/blocking (or attempting to) the front kick because it wasn't a fake, it was really coming in. I found it easy to rechamber the front kick with a hip shift/pivot and change the rechamber arc so as to get in position for the follow up kick. Same theory/principle as you already use in the crescent to side kick combo.Agree witht he above, even if you're really good/fast it's difficult to land a rear leg kick of any variety unless your set-up (including movement) is really, really good


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## skribs (Apr 7, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I use a variation of this idea. If I chamber a front kick, then all I need to do is pivot on the ball of my root foot, and it can become a side kick. I like using the front snap kick a lot, with the rear leg. If I can score with it, great... but I really want to get them used to seeing my snap kick and get comfortable that they can deal with it.



I think this is a Karate thing.  Taekwondo we kinda do this, but each kick also has it's own way of being chambered.  From the very little I know of Karate (forums and youtube), my understanding is y'all want to chamber the same so your opponent doesn't know what kick is coming.


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## wab25 (Apr 7, 2020)

Change the chamber, when you pivot your foot. Its the same change in chamber you need if the other guy moves to the outside. By pivoting on your foot, you effectively move him to the outside, into the same position he would be in for your #2. (that sounds really bad, but hey, you listed them in that order...) This way, you don't need him to move at all.


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## dvcochran (Apr 7, 2020)

skribs said:


> I think this is a Karate thing.  Taekwondo we kinda do this, but each kick also has it's own way of being chambered.  From the very little I know of Karate (forums and youtube), my understanding is y'all want to chamber the same so your opponent doesn't know what kick is coming.


This must be specific to your school. We teach the same chamber for the common kicks, for the reason you mentioned plus for ease of acclimation. KKW 101. As people advance we teach how/where to modify the chamber if needed. There is great value in being 1/2 way or better through a kick before your opponent knows what is coming. 
Keep in mind this is for a 'static' chamber. Combo's and spins change in dynamics quite a bit.


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## dvcochran (Apr 7, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Change the chamber, when you pivot your foot. Its the same change in chamber you need if the other guy moves to the outside. By pivoting on your foot, you effectively move him to the outside, into the same position he would be in for your #2. (that sounds really bad, but hey, you listed them in that order...) This way, you don't need him to move at all.


This is the elegant art in sparring; getting your opponent to do/move as you want them to. Setups are necessary but even they get predictable after a while. Posture and footwork go a Long way.


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## Buka (Apr 7, 2020)

skribs said:


> I think this is a Karate thing.  Taekwondo we kinda do this, but each kick also has it's own way of being chambered.  From the very little I know of Karate (forums and youtube), my understanding is y'all want to chamber the same so your opponent doesn't know what kick is coming.



It’s more than likely school specific. When I trained in TKD we always tried to chamber every kick the exact same way. Worked pretty good.

Doesn’t matter much when something is coming at you, all that matters is.. you know.


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## Buka (Apr 7, 2020)

I’ve had great success with what we used to call a Sliding back leg side kick. Just as your body starts to turn, you use the momentum of moving forward to slide you base foot a bit. Anywhere between a few inches to a couple/three feet.

We used to use it against “runners”.
It ends up being more of a push than a kick. But If he’s moving backwards it will push him **** over teakettle. Which is always kind of fun.


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## skribs (Apr 7, 2020)

Buka said:


> I’ve had great success with what we used to call a Sliding back leg side kick. Just as your body starts to turn, you use the momentum of moving forward to slide you base foot a bit. Anywhere between a few inches to a couple/three feet.
> 
> We used to use it against “runners”.
> It ends up being more of a push than a kick. But If he’s moving backwards it will push him **** over teakettle. Which is always kind of fun.



Kinda like a drag version of the flying side kick?


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2020)

Buka said:


> It’s more than likely school specific. When I trained in TKD we always tried to chamber every kick the exact same way. Worked pretty good.
> 
> Doesn’t matter much when something is coming at you, all that matters is.. you know.



I never had the hips for it.


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## dvcochran (Apr 8, 2020)

Buka said:


> I’ve had great success with what we used to call a Sliding back leg side kick. Just as your body starts to turn, you use the momentum of moving forward to slide you base foot a bit. Anywhere between a few inches to a couple/three feet.
> 
> We used to use it against “runners”.
> It ends up being more of a push than a kick. But If he’s moving backwards it will push him **** over teakettle. Which is always kind of fun.


Agree. I mentioned this technique earlier. We would put lines on the floor 1-2-3 feet apart and call out the number in cadence. The kicker learned to slide said distance on call. Body position is So important. 
It is a good tool to have in the bag but I hate when I see someone who tries to leave their leg up like it is on a spring. Just jam the kick and push through.


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## dvcochran (Apr 8, 2020)

skribs said:


> Kinda like a drag version of the flying side kick?


That may be an exaggeration but you are on the right track. There is no 'running' leading up to the slide. If you are in a closed stance, slightly shift you weight and drive forward with the rear leg while simultaneously chambering the lead leg. The lead leg/chamber starts First. The root leg does the bulk of the work. As a TKD guy I think you will get what I mean by saying the chamber component is it's own thing. The lead leg knee goes high to help drive the body forward. This is also a good defensive posture if done correctly. The push of the root leg and drive of the chamber creates the slide. 
We practice a max of three slides before the lead leg is placed back on the floor so a person who is polished can literally chase the opponent out of the ring. More than 3 is just not practical IMHO. Care has to be taken not to lean the upper body too far back. When the opponent can easily jam you and knock you back. This is where good leg and core strength is paramount. If a person is too dependent on the fulcrum effect they will get in trouble.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2020)

skribs said:


> I've been thinking about the rear leg side kick over the last week or so.  It's one of the first kicks you learn in a lot of kicking arts.  It's one of the "basic kicks".  But the rear-leg side kick is also generally found to be a slow kick by a lot of people, especially compared to the front and roundhouse kick.  It might be a strong kick - especially in terms of it's pushing power - but if you don't have the speed to land it, then it doesn't really make sense.  However, I've come up with these uses for the kick:
> 
> 
> As a training tool to better understand the front leg side kick, back kick, and hook kick.  Yes, those will be done different (especially when you learn more about how a back kick actually works instead of doing a turning side kick), but we teach the basic principle of the turning side kick before moving onto the black belt much later.
> ...


Oddly, in the mainstream NGA curriculum, there is ONLY a rear leg side kick. The round kick comes in both rear leg and slide-up (front leg), but no front leg version for th side kick. And because of this, you rarely see a side kick of any sort in sparring. I've been trying to develop my front leg kick to usable standards.

I'd be interested in seeing a video of what you mean with #3 - I'm not quite picturing what you're describing here. 

I need to go back and look at #4. We have a crescent kick, but it's pretty much never used (and I stopped teaching it some time ago). This might open up some possibilities with it. Maybe time to reconsider that kick.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Other times, people like to get an idea of how far I can reach with my front kick. Then they will move back just enough to avoid it, to then move back in. When they get comfortable with that distance... I add the pivot, and turn it into a side kick, which reaches them, where the front kick won't.


I do this a lot with folks, and am surprised how few have had this strategy to counter. I think you'd catch me with it more often than I'd like, as I've gotten used to controlling that distance by "just enough".


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2020)

JP3 said:


> Another thing is that, like you aready do with the crescent-to-side kick same-leg kick combo, you can conceal what kick is coming in the same manner... i.e. Bill Wallace style.  I used a rear leg front kick, same leg roundhouse or side kick combo very effectively IMO for years as people would generally commit to defending/blocking (or attempting to) the front kick because it wasn't a fake, it was really coming in. I found it easy to rechamber the front kick with a hip shift/pivot and change the rechamber arc so as to get in position for the follow up kick. Same theory/principle as you already use in the crescent to side kick combo.Agree witht he above, even if you're really good/fast it's difficult to land a rear leg kick of any variety unless your set-up (including movement) is really, really good


NGA from the start teaches side and round kicks (on the rear leg) with a chamber intended to mimic a front kick, for just this purpose. I suspect either the founder or the guy who brought it to the US was a prolific kicker. Oddly, the kicks get very little use by most folks.


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## dvcochran (Apr 8, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> NGA from the start teaches side and round kicks (on the rear leg) with a chamber intended to mimic a front kick, for just this purpose. I suspect either the founder or the guy who brought it to the US was a prolific kicker. Oddly, the kicks get very little use by most folks.


Does NGA tend to fight in an open or closed stance?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Does NGA tend to fight in an open or closed stance?


I don't know those terms. We tend to use a 45-degree (parallel feet) stance as the starting point for sparring.


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## skribs (Apr 8, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Oddly, in the mainstream NGA curriculum, there is ONLY a rear leg side kick. The round kick comes in both rear leg and slide-up (front leg), but no front leg version for th side kick. And because of this, you rarely see a side kick of any sort in sparring. I've been trying to develop my front leg kick to usable standards.
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing a video of what you mean with #3 - I'm not quite picturing what you're describing here.
> 
> I need to go back and look at #4. We have a crescent kick, but it's pretty much never used (and I stopped teaching it some time ago). This might open up some possibilities with it. Maybe time to reconsider that kick.



None of these videos are mine.

Non-Rear Leg Side Kicks:

Step-Behind Side Kick (uses original front leg)





Check Side Kick





#3 - Watch at 1:30.  





Crescent Kick to Side Kick (I really want to emphasize that this isn't my video)


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## dvcochran (Apr 8, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know those terms. We tend to use a 45-degree (parallel feet) stance as the starting point for sparring.


If you are in a fighting stance, is one shoulder or both shoulders facing your opponent? It sounds like you may be somewhere in the middle?


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## Buka (Apr 8, 2020)

skribs said:


> Kinda like a drag version of the flying side kick?



Never thought of it that way before, but yeah!


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> If you are in a fighting stance, is one shoulder or both shoulders facing your opponent? It sounds like you may be somewhere in the middle?


Yes. If you consider fully-facing (both shoulders) as 0 degrees, and side-on (one shoulder) as 90 degrees, we are at 45 degrees. 

If you're by an chance familiar with the Japanese hanmi stance ("half stance"), then you've seen the angle of the body, just with different footwork.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2020)

skribs said:


> None of these videos are mine.
> 
> Non-Rear Leg Side Kicks:
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll try to watch those tomorrow. Our data is running low on the "good" connection, and the other two are just being crap right now.


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## skribs (Apr 8, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Thanks. I'll try to watch those tomorrow. Our data is running low on the "good" connection, and the other two are just being crap right now.



Sorry.  I forgot you live in a third world county.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 8, 2020)

skribs said:


> county.


Can't tell if that's a typo or a clever joke.


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## skribs (Apr 8, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Can't tell if that's a typo or a clever joke.



It was intentional.


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## dvcochran (Apr 9, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. If you consider fully-facing (both shoulders) as 0 degrees, and side-on (one shoulder) as 90 degrees, we are at 45 degrees.
> 
> If you're by an chance familiar with the Japanese hanmi stance ("half stance"), then you've seen the angle of the body, just with different footwork.


I am somewhat familiar. The base looks similar to a classic boxer's stance but it looks much more rooted.
I think it would be a good position to throw the rear leg from since your feet are close to each, your front foot is pointed forwardish, and you are forward biased. It would take a good amount of shift to get the front leg up. If the opponent is pressing you it would be a complimenting stance to move the rear leg back and chamber the front leg for a jam or more powerful front leg kick. 
We use an expression; 'Get Tall' meaning use the full length or your body in the kick. I think this is a primary difference in a Korean kick vs. a Japanese/Okinawan kick that keeps the body lower and smaller.  

I used to go to quite a few open tournaments and saw what appeared to be the similar 45° stance but with a more defensive posture I think. It was pretty much all hands, all the time. If a kick came it was from the rear leg but usually there was little to no penetration. The body never shifted forward and the foot was back on the floor very fast. Clearly a different kicking philosophy. It always left the hands available for a technique at any moment. 
I always enjoyed competing against different styles and trying to figure out of to be successful against them. It did not always work out that way but it was always a good experience. Good times.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 9, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am somewhat familiar. The base looks similar to a classic boxer's stance but it looks much more rooted.
> I think it would be a good position to throw the rear leg from since your feet are close to each, your front foot is pointed forwardish, and you are forward biased. It would take a good amount of shift to get the front leg up. If the opponent is pressing you it would be a complimenting stance to move the rear leg back and chamber the front leg for a jam or more powerful front leg kick.
> We use an expression; 'Get Tall' meaning use the full length or your body in the kick. I think this is a primary difference in a Korean kick vs. a Japanese/Okinawan kick that keeps the body lower and smaller.
> 
> ...


Hmm...so, the stance limits some use of the front foot? I'm wondering if that's why I can't figure out how to make better use of anything but a snap kick from the front leg. I've been working off and on for a while to try to improve my use of kicking, so I can teach it better. I really need to spend some time with a kicking specialist at some point to better understand some of this.


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## skribs (Apr 9, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm...so, the stance limits some use of the front foot? I'm wondering if that's why I can't figure out how to make better use of anything but a snap kick from the front leg. I've been working off and on for a while to try to improve my use of kicking, so I can teach it better. I really need to spend some time with a kicking specialist at some point to better understand some of this.



One example of this is regarding the "stiff-arm" kicks.  There's a version for both side kick and front kick, where you basically put up a straight leg to block your opponent's momentum.  From a forward stance I'd use the front kick, from a back stance I'd use the side kick version.  There isn't really a benefit to one over the other, except I'm already facing that way.



dvcochran said:


> I am somewhat familiar. The base looks similar to a classic boxer's stance but it looks much more rooted.
> I think it would be a good position to throw the rear leg from since your feet are close to each, your front foot is pointed forwardish, and you are forward biased. It would take a good amount of shift to get the front leg up. If the opponent is pressing you it would be a complimenting stance to move the rear leg back and chamber the front leg for a jam or more powerful front leg kick.
> We use an expression; 'Get Tall' meaning use the full length or your body in the kick. I think this is a primary difference in a Korean kick vs. a Japanese/Okinawan kick that keeps the body lower and smaller.
> 
> ...



On the other hand, when you get good at shifting your weight the gap between stances closes rapidly.  That's one of the big benefits for the Palgwe forms over the Taegeuks in my opinion (at least, the versions we do at my school), is there's a lot of shifts from front stance to back stance or vice versa.  The Taegeuk forms use a shorter back stance, so it becomes a step instead of a shift.  When I switch from back to front stance in Taegeuk #3, I'm stepping out with the front foot.  When I switch in the Palgwe forms, I'm basically just pivoting my rear foot.


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## dvcochran (Apr 9, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm...so, the stance limits some use of the front foot? I'm wondering if that's why I can't figure out how to make better use of anything but a snap kick from the front leg. I've been working off and on for a while to try to improve my use of kicking, so I can teach it better. I really need to spend some time with a kicking specialist at some point to better understand some of this.


I might say more dictates rather than limits. There are just certain things you can/cannot do from a given stance. I feel this is a good point to having lots of tools in your tool belt. This includes variations of the same kick.


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## skribs (Apr 10, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I might say more dictates rather than limits. There are just certain things you can/cannot do from a given stance. I feel this is a good point to having lots of tools in your tool belt. This includes variations of the same kick.



That's only if your stances are static.  If you're moving, it's quite easy to adjust as you start to chamber.


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## dvcochran (Apr 10, 2020)

skribs said:


> That's only if your stances are static.  If you're moving, it's quite easy to adjust as you start to chamber.


For purposes of identifying the stance in question, they have to be looked at from a static position, else there is no starting point for the conversation. 
Fluidity within the stance would be in the tool belt comment I made earlier.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 10, 2020)

skribs said:


> That's only if your stances are static.  If you're moving, it's quite easy to adjust as you start to chamber.


If you can flow to the mechanics of a more suitable stance, that’s true. We (NGA as I’ve seen it) tend to train sparring almost exclusively in that stance. My personal approach is a bit different and more flexible, but still doesn’t have the mechanics (I think) of a side-on stance to work from.


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## skribs (Apr 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> If you can flow to the mechanics of a more suitable stance, that’s true. We (NGA as I’ve seen it) tend to train sparring almost exclusively in that stance. My personal approach is a bit different and more flexible, but still doesn’t have the mechanics (I think) of a side-on stance to work from.



I think I had the discussion on reddit, but basically someone was saying it's stupid to do a down block, because you're leaving your face uncovered.  Same applies to the typical Karate/Taekwondo position of chambering your hand at your hip.  What I've found is that I can bring my hand up to cover up my ear almost as fast from any of the positions.  The actual motion is fast.  If I'm going from the guard position it's mainly just swinging the shoulder (because I just have to point my elbow up), where from the hip or from a down block there's a twisting of the wrist or bend at the elbow that does half the work of closing the gap.  

_Now, that's not to say that I think we should abandon a proper guard.  Just that if your hand is momentarily down, it's not the end of the world.  Ideally if you're not actively doing something with your hand, it will come back up to guard.
_
What I think @dvcochran is referring two is two things:

Where is your weight
What is the orientation of your foot and body
If your weight is on the front foot, all front-leg kicks become harder.  If you're pointed forward instead of sideways, front kicks become easier than side kicks (and vice versa).  But for me, it becomes the same thing as covering my ear.  Doing a front-leg side kick with my feet pointing straight means I pivot my rear foot as I chamber.  It's one extra step, but the step is done simultaneously with other steps and doesn't really change much.

Kind of like driving a stick vs. driving an automatic.  There's more involved in driving a stick, but it's not like you're gonna turn a 30-minute drive into an hour commute by driving stick.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 10, 2020)

skribs said:


> I think I had the discussion on reddit, but basically someone was saying it's stupid to do a down block, because you're leaving your face uncovered.



When/how did you lose your other arm? I'm sorry for your loss, but congrats on overcoming the disability.


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## skribs (Apr 10, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> When/how did you lose your other arm? I'm sorry for your loss, but congrats on overcoming the disability.



Are you referring to me or to the person who said you can't down block without leaving your face uncovered?

And yes, I do find that if you're actively parrying, one hand pretty much does the job of two.  Even when I have both hands up, it's usually one hand going back and forth instead of both hands doing the parrying.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 10, 2020)

skribs said:


> Are you referring to me or to the person who said you can't down block without leaving your face uncovered?



Does it matter, when my statement was clearly silly? Assume it was directed at whomever makes you feel best.



> And yes, I do find that if you're actively parrying, one hand pretty much does the job of two.  Even when I have both hands up, it's usually one hand going back and forth instead of both hands doing the parrying.



Every movement closes options and opens new ones.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 10, 2020)

skribs said:


> I think I had the discussion on reddit, but basically someone was saying it's stupid to do a down block, because you're leaving your face uncovered.  Same applies to the typical Karate/Taekwondo position of chambering your hand at your hip.  What I've found is that I can bring my hand up to cover up my ear almost as fast from any of the positions.  The actual motion is fast.  If I'm going from the guard position it's mainly just swinging the shoulder (because I just have to point my elbow up), where from the hip or from a down block there's a twisting of the wrist or bend at the elbow that does half the work of closing the gap.
> 
> _Now, that's not to say that I think we should abandon a proper guard.  Just that if your hand is momentarily down, it's not the end of the world.  Ideally if you're not actively doing something with your hand, it will come back up to guard.
> _
> ...


I think the stick vs. automatic may be valid for another reason. Someone who drives stick can pretty easily go back and forth between them. But someone who only drives automatic doesn't have an easy path to the transition, even for making good use of the auto-stick feature on a lot of cars. Think of me when kicking as someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick. I don't have the use of that side-stance kicking mechanic, so I have nothing to shift my body into (that it knows) from the 45-degree stance. Does that make sense? So, for me, the idea of just making the shift with a pivot while chambering is asking my body to do (while chambering) something it hasn't the training for.


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## drop bear (Apr 11, 2020)

If your hand is going to leave your face it should do so in a way that doesn't allow a free shot to the head. 

If someone for example was to downward block a body shot the the next time the shot thrown as a fake should catch them. 

So then if you downward blocked you would also need to cut angles or move your head. 

Bear in mind a downward block is kind of what stops a take down. So then people fake the take down. 

If you were downward blocking a round kick. I just wouldn't.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> If you were downward blocking a round kick. I just wouldn't.



If that round kick is targeted between the hip and the armpit, the downward block is a good way to catch it.


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## skribs (Apr 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> If your hand is going to leave your face it should do so in a way that doesn't allow a free shot to the head.
> 
> If someone for example was to downward block a body shot the the next time the shot thrown as a fake should catch them.
> 
> ...



There is no way to guard 100% of the available striking targets.  I'm having trouble finding the video from Bill Wallace, but it was a seminar where he was explaining how these advanced kickboxers can get hit by kicks if they know all of the kicks.  To summarize:

First he did a body-level roundhouse, until his partner could block it with a down block
Then he did a head-level roundhouse, until his partner started blocking that with a higher outside block
He went back to the body-level roundhouse.  His partner had to use both hands to protect himself from the roundhouse kick - the down block as before, but the other hand had to come over to protect the head
That left his whole other side open for a hook kick
He didn't even need to fake the kick.  He used the same chamber for all of them.  The same knee up and body rotation, which could turn into a body roundhouse, a head roundhouse, or a hook kick.  He didn't show (but probably could have) the side kick, which would go straight through all of those blocks that are covering the sides.

But if you opt to not block those body kicks...you're going to absorb them all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> If you were downward blocking a round kick. I just wouldn't.


If you don't want your opponent to

- punch you forever, you wrap his punching arm.
- kick you forever, you catch his kicking leg.


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## drop bear (Apr 11, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> If that round kick is targeted between the hip and the armpit, the downward block is a good way to catch it.



Because you are going over the top of the leg and scooping it?

And not blocking it then scooping the leg the other way.


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## drop bear (Apr 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> There is no way to guard 100% of the available striking targets.  I'm having trouble finding the video from Bill Wallace, but it was a seminar where he was explaining how these advanced kickboxers can get hit by kicks if they know all of the kicks.  To summarize:
> 
> First he did a body-level roundhouse, until his partner could block it with a down block
> Then he did a head-level roundhouse, until his partner started blocking that with a higher outside block
> ...



I use a completely different system to stop kicks I think.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Because you are going over the top of the leg and scooping it?
> 
> And not blocking it then scooping the leg the other way.



It's always difficult to describe these things....

You throw a right leg roundhouse at my kidneys. I'm standing left leg forward. My left arm drops to block the kick, bends at the elbow and catches the kick.


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## drop bear (Apr 11, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's always difficult to describe these things....
> 
> You throw a right leg roundhouse at my kidneys. I'm standing left leg forward. My left arm drops to block the kick, bends at the elbow and catches the kick.



Yeah I don't like that one. Either people tend to just kick my arm or it gets pushed put in to my head.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah I don't like that one. Either people tend to just kick my arm or it gets pushed put in to my head.



Works well for me (and no, it's not my only option) but maybe I've spent more time practicing it than you, or maybe we just move differently.


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## Buka (Apr 11, 2020)

I slap block kicks, or turn my body and absorb on the arm. I can block other ways, but prefer slap blocks.

And, yes, I smashed a few fingers the first few years, part of the cost I guess. And, yes, I know there are some folks who throw really powerful kicks. They're the ones who taught me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 11, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Works well for me (and no, it's not my only option) but maybe I've spent more time practicing it than you, or maybe we just move differently.


It works for me as well. I like to use both arms as a trap.

- The bottom arm block the kick and wrap under the leg.
- The upper arm protect the head and wrap over the leg.

To catch a high/middle level roundhouse kick is one of the 1st degree black belt testing requirement for ACSCA.

I try to catch roundhouse kick and side kick. I don't like to catch front kick.


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## skribs (Apr 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah I don't like that one. Either people tend to just kick my arm or it gets pushed put in to my head.



If you catch the thigh it ain't gonna hurt.  If you catch the shin, then it'll hurt (and possibly break).


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## skribs (Apr 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I use a completely different system to stop kicks I think.



That's not my only system.  That's just if I'm using my arms.  A lot of kicks I simply try to evade.  But in order for me to kick my opponent, I have to be in his kicking range.  Using the guard to protect me helps.  

Using legs to block kicks is a no-go because of the rules in TKD sparring:

Kicks are mainly to the body or head, which makes it harder
Also blocking kicks with your legs is against the rules


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 11, 2020)

Buka said:


> I slap block kicks, or turn my body and absorb on the arm. I can block other ways, but prefer slap blocks.
> 
> And, yes, I smashed a few fingers the first few years, part of the cost I guess. And, yes, I know there are some folks who throw really powerful kicks. They're the ones who taught me.


Can you define "slap block" for me? I've never heard that term before.


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## Buka (Apr 12, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Can you define "slap block" for me? I've never heard that term before.



It’s just blocking anything with an open, slightly cupped hand, the contact point being your palm and slightly curled fingers, thumb tight to forefinger.

It’s accompanied with head movement and footwork and it’s very quick. It’s particularly effective against really fast people. It draws away their speed and tends to frustrate them when countered. They tend to then increase their power, which you slap block and counter as well.


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## dvcochran (Apr 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> If you catch the thigh it ain't gonna hurt.  If you catch the shin, then it'll hurt (and possibly break).


With a roundhouse using top of the foot probably not. 
I had my right thigh muscle separated/torn by an Ax(ish) kick. Hurt like hxxx. After the match my leg started swelling big time and turning blue and it had a divot in it. It was not a circuit tournament so I bowed out. Took about 3 weeks to heal. 
This is big reason I talk about heel kicks if wearing hard shoes when training SD/SA. 

When you say 'catch the shin' are you talking about when someone who is leg checking? I would think there is enough flex in the member for it not to hurt that much. 
A good 'sneaky' block for roundhouse kicks is to use your elbow. A good way to give your opponent a goose egg on the top of their foot. If they are kicking hard this plays to your advantage.


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## skribs (Apr 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> With a roundhouse using top of the foot probably not.
> I had my right thigh muscle separated/torn by an Ax(ish) kick. Hurt like hxxx. After the match my leg started swelling big time and turning blue and it had a divot in it. It was not a circuit tournament so I bowed out. Took about 3 weeks to heal.
> This is big reason I talk about heel kicks if wearing hard shoes when training SD/SA.
> 
> ...



I mean if I block the thigh, the kick doesn't have as much power as if I block the shin or the foot.  I catch the kick at a closer point to the fulcrum so there's less speed.


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## dvcochran (Apr 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> I mean if I block the thigh, the kick doesn't have as much power as if I block the shin or the foot.  I catch the kick at a closer point to the fulcrum so there's less speed.


I do remember someone jamming my thigh, it is a very strong muscle. They would have to be in pretty close, too close for comfort. How do you block the thigh?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 12, 2020)

Buka said:


> It’s just blocking anything with an open, slightly cupped hand, the contact point being your palm and slightly curled fingers, thumb tight to forefinger.
> 
> It’s accompanied with head movement and footwork and it’s very quick. It’s particularly effective against really fast people. It draws away their speed and tends to frustrate them when countered. They tend to then increase their power, which you slap block and counter as well.


Okay, sounds pretty much like our "push block".


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I do remember someone jamming my thigh, it is a very strong muscle. They would have to be in pretty close, too close for comfort. How do you block the thigh?



With your knee, usually.The elbow can be used too. Also, one method I've used to get students to stop telegraphing kicks is to kick them in the thigh as they start the kick.


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## drop bear (Apr 12, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't want your opponent to
> 
> - punch you forever, you wrap his punching arm.
> - kick you forever, you catch his kicking leg.



Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.

You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.

This one is against a front kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 12, 2020)

drop bear said:


> This one is against a front kick.


The downward block followed by upward wrapping is 2 steps process. it may be too slow to catch a front kick. The front kick is like the jab, it's very fast.

But if you use downward block with upward wrist hooking, you can combine downward block and leg catching as 1 step process which is much faster.

Still, I don't think one should try to catch a front kick (same as to catch a jab). The moment that you try to catch your opponent's front kick, the moment that your opponent can drop his kicking leg and punch on your face. 

To use front kick to set up a face punch is the basic principle 101 for all striking game.


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## Buka (Apr 12, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, sounds pretty much like our "push block".



Curious...Do you actually push with it? Push with it to turn him, or do you slap it away? Probably either would be my guess.

If someone is throwing one of those monster sidekicks at my body, and I'm lucky enough to see it coming before it kills me, I use what we used to call a matador slap. You use both hands as you move slightly back, your arms do a motion like you were holding a table cloth and wanted to spread it out on the bed and just before it lands on the bed you decide you want it closer to you...so the hands kind of pull back. With the kick it's a two hand slap that incorporates that pull back movement.

And that pull back motion, which appears subtle, really diffuses the side kick and messes up the kicker's timing in a big way. It doesn't matter how skilled or experienced a kicker he is, it screws him up until he has it done to him a bunch of time. It's so easy to counter HIM as his retrieval of his kick is disturbed. You might think he can easily use his hands to follow up on you as he comes down, but it doesn't work that way for some reason that I don't have the ability to explain. Play with it, it works really well.

As a former kicker, who would rather kick than eat pizza - I still love messing with kickers. Even now.


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## dvcochran (Apr 12, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.
> 
> You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.
> 
> This one is against a front kick.


Yeah, that is pretty sad. Even sadder that he is referencing the book he apparently just learned it from.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 12, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.
> 
> You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.
> 
> This one is against a front kick.


NGA contains three kick defenses that amount to different methods of trapping a kick. They're taught mostly against a front kick. I'm not wild about how they're used. NGA folks aren't typically great kickers (I was among the best, and I consider my kicks mediocre), and two of those traps work much better (more reliably) against round kicks than straight ones.

The one you're talking about, we call "Scoop Against a Kick". Our technique names are so poetic.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 12, 2020)

Buka said:


> Curious...Do you actually push with it? Push with it to turn him, or do you slap it away? Probably either would be my guess.


We can do either, though the "purest" principle is a very soft push, just edging the attack off-target enough to miss, while preserving the momentum it brought, to get them quickly into grappling distance.



> If someone is throwing one of those monster sidekicks at my body, and I'm lucky enough to see it coming before it kills me, I use what we used to call a matador slap. You use both hands as you move slightly back, your arms do a motion like you were holding a table cloth and wanted to spread it out on the bed and just before it lands on the bed you decide you want it closer to you...so the hands kind of pull back. With the kick it's a two hand slap that incorporates that pull back movement.


I think I'm picturing that right. I've not worked enough against good kickers to know if I could pull that off against a monster kick, but the basic principle is something we work with.



> And that pull back motion, which appears subtle, really diffuses the side kick and messes up the kicker's timing in a big way. It doesn't matter how skilled or experienced a kicker he is, it screws him up until he has it done to him a bunch of time. It's so easy to counter HIM as his retrieval of his kick is disturbed. You might think he can easily use his hands to follow up on you as he comes down, but it doesn't work that way for some reason that I don't have the ability to explain. Play with it, it works really well.


That's the principle I was talking about with the push/slap block. You're taking the "mustard" off the kick, but not stopping the momentum like you would if you blocked hard (or if he made solid contact). It leaves him in limbo - not enough contact for a super-easy retrieval, and not quite enough momentum to follow the leg like he would if the kick missed entirely.



> As a former kicker, who would rather kick than eat pizza - I still love messing with kickers. Even now.


Man, good kickers mess with my whole game, so they deserve it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 12, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> We can do either, though the "purest" principle is a very soft push, just edging the attack off-target enough to miss, while preserving the momentum it brought, to get them quickly into grappling distance.


Having a soft push for the goal when you're blocking a kick sounds like a really good way to get kicked by a kick.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Having a soft push for the goal when you're blocking a kick sounds like a really good way to get kicked by a kick.


Remember we don’t kick a lot, so not much focus on defending them. I tend to control kicks with distancing and my own kicks, more than blocks. When I have to block them, it’s likely to be either a variation of that slap block @Buka described, or a shell/close guard.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Remember we don’t kick a lot, so not much focus on defending them. I tend to control kicks with distancing and my own kicks, more than blocks. When I have to block them, it’s likely to be either a variation of that slap block @Buka described, or a shell/close guard.


The shell block works. So does the slap block if you're putting power into it. But if your goal is to be gentle with that block, and the other person doesn't have the same lack of focus on kicks, then you're in a world of trouble.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> The shell block works. So does the slap block if you're putting power into it. But if your goal is to be gentle with that block, and the other person doesn't have the same lack of focus on kicks, then you're in a world of trouble.


Agreed. That softer push is really only effective agains straight attacks (jab, etc.) or paired with a step off-line. It doesn’t stop power coming in from the side.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. That softer push is really only effective agains straight attacks (jab, etc.) or paired with a step off-line. It doesn’t stop power coming in from the side.


I think that's a fair differentiation. Against a pure front strike (front kick, or side kick from the front), it can work. But the step offline is really what's doing the work-the hand pushing the kick out of the way is really just letting the rest of your body know where to step off line. 

But against any sort of hook, crescent or roundhouse kick, a push like that doesn't work. Or at least I haven't figured out how to make it work.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I think that's a fair differentiation. Against a pure front strike (front kick, or side kick from the front), it can work. But the step offline is really what's doing the work-the hand pushing the kick out of the way is really just letting the rest of your body know where to step off line.
> 
> But against any sort of hook, crescent or roundhouse kick, a push like that doesn't work. Or at least I haven't figured out how to make it work.


That’s be my take. Though I’m interested in seeing @Buka’s monster kick block he described. I’d say I was interested in feeling it, but I doubt my kick brings enough power to make it work the way it would in a good kicker.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 13, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That’s be my take. Though I’m interested in seeing @Buka’s monster kick block he described. I’d say I was interested in feeling it, but I doubt my kick brings enough power to make it work the way it would in a good kicker.


That depends. In general I'm a below average kicker. But if my goal was to kick with power, without focusing on everything else, I can send a good roundhouse/front/side kick if needed. I would guess that you're the same way-with worrying about footing, what else might happen, etc. the kick isn't as strong as it could be. But if you're told "Kick as hard as you can while I block it", it would still be a pretty hard kick.

That said, I'm not particularly interested in feeling it, since I've already felt it. It's a good response to a kick. What's a better response is the people who are able to tell when I'm about to kick, and kick my shin as I start. No matter how much I work on my telegraphing, they're able to stop it before it gets out there.


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## skribs (Apr 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I do remember someone jamming my thigh, it is a very strong muscle. They would have to be in pretty close, too close for comfort. How do you block the thigh?



If it's WT sparring, now you're too close for them to easily kick.  If it's more lenient rules, you can catch the leg and you're close enough to sweep the other one.


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## Yokozuna514 (Apr 14, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.
> 
> You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.
> 
> This one is against a front kick.


Interesting video.  Not quite sure how much I agree with the technique the way that it is shown.  There are a lot of elements that require the cooperation of your opponent to make the technique work.   As most of us know, too much cooperation can invalidate the technique if it is not trained in a realistic manner.   

As an alternative solution to the same problem of catching a front kick, you could train using 'shuto mawashi uke' which basically means that person receiving the kick in the video would parry the kick away from his body and the scoop the front kick with his left hand (or both hands) to throw the kicker backwards.   This is not a perfect video to demonstrate what I am talking about but it  gives the general idea:  Shuto Mawashi Uke - Bunkai | Iain Abernethy


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 14, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Interesting video.  Not quite sure how much I agree with the technique the way that it is shown.  There are a lot of elements that require the cooperation of your opponent to make the technique work.   As most of us know, too much cooperation can invalidate the technique if it is not trained in a realistic manner.
> 
> As an alternative solution to the same problem of catching a front kick, you could train using 'shuto mawashi uke' which basically means that person receiving the kick in the video would parry the kick away from his body and the scoop the front kick with his left hand (or both hands) to throw the kicker backwards.   This is not a perfect video to demonstrate what I am talking about but it  gives the general idea:  Shuto Mawashi Uke - Bunkai | Iain Abernethy


The entry to that is similar to one of the classical forms in NGA (we finish differently - I'm not fond of their finish in that video). In my opinion, that entry is just to get to the takedown, and isn't meant to be literal. The idea should be, as I understand it, that you're training what to do if you end up with that leg in your grasp, and the drill simply feeds you a leg to work with.


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## Yokozuna514 (Apr 15, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The entry to that is similar to one of the classical forms in NGA (we finish differently - I'm not fond of their finish in that video). In my opinion, that entry is just to get to the takedown, and isn't meant to be literal. The idea should be, as I understand it, that you're training what to do if you end up with that leg in your grasp, and the drill simply feeds you a leg to work with.


Perhaps on the surface.   The difference between the two videos is that in the first video, the defender is stepping offline and then catching the kick.   In the second video, the defender steps forward and uses a parry that can also be used to catch the kick.   Next opportunity you have, try both and let me know if both are equally effective.   In my experience it has never been easy to sidestep a front kick without parrying first but then again I do not move like the flash  .


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 15, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Perhaps on the surface.   The difference between the two videos is that in the first video, the defender is stepping offline and then catching the kick.   In the second video, the defender steps forward and uses a parry that can also be used to catch the kick.   Next opportunity you have, try both and let me know if both are equally effective.   In my experience it has never been easy to sidestep a front kick without parrying first but then again I do not move like the flash  .


I'll see if I can see the videos (data issues at the moment). In any case, I wasn't commenting on the specific technique, but on the approach used in training a lot of these. Even when training things that can work reasonably well, classical drills for kick defenses tend to start with someone delivering a formal kick that has been well-broadcast. Unfortunately, I've seen folks continue to train them only with that kind of drill, assuming it's supposed to work exactly that way, rather than recognizing that the entry (in your example, the parry) is what gets you to where the technique is available. It doesn't much matter how you get there, in terms of the technique, itself. If the entry taught is useful, that's fantastic. If it isn't, you're still able to practice a good finish from that point, but it's important to understand that the entry in that case isn't reliable.


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## skribs (Apr 15, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The downward block followed by upward wrapping is 2 steps process. it may be too slow to catch a front kick. The front kick is like the jab, it's very fast.
> 
> But if you use downward block with upward wrist hooking, you can combine downward block and leg catching as 1 step process which is much faster.
> 
> ...



The thigh recoils slower than the shin does.  This is why I keep saying to catch the thigh instead of the shin.  It's the same principle as wrapping the shoulder when someone punches.



gpseymour said:


> NGA contains three kick defenses that amount to different methods of trapping a kick. They're taught mostly against a front kick. I'm not wild about how they're used. NGA folks aren't typically great kickers (I was among the best, and I consider my kicks mediocre), and two of those traps work much better (more reliably) against round kicks than straight ones.
> 
> The one you're talking about, we call "Scoop Against a Kick". Our technique names are so poetic.



I actually find the front kick easier to work around than a roundhouse kick.  The front kick has about 3 or 4 inches of coverage where it can hit, where the roundhouse kick has a large arc where it can get you.  

Our front kick defenses can go to the inside or outside (i.e. towards their stance or behind their stance).  Or we can step back and catch the kick (you see this in Muay Thai too).  The roundhouse kick you can only go inside.  You can go backward and avoid the kick, but you aren't going to catch it without taking the hit.  If you try and go outside, you'll take less damage from the kick, but it will still hit you.  

Side kick is the other way.  None of our defenses go inside, because that puts you right in the path of the kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 15, 2020)

skribs said:


> The thigh recoils slower than the shin does.  This is why I keep saying to catch the thigh instead of the shin.  It's the same principle as wrapping the shoulder when someone punches.


If your arm can reach to your opponent's thigh, the distance is much closer that the distance that you can only reach to his shin. In that distance, you can kick/sweep/hook your opponent's rooting leg and take him down.

When the distance is that close, there are better solution.


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## skribs (Apr 15, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your arm can reach to your opponent's thigh, the distance is much closer that the distance that you can only reach to his shin. In that distance, you can kick/sweep/hook your opponent's rooting leg and take him down.
> 
> When the distance is that close, there are better solution.



Catching the kick leg and sweeping the plant leg aren't mutually exclusive.

It would also help in the video you linked if the guy wasn't jumping before the sweep hits.  That's clearly staged.


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## wab25 (Apr 15, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.
> 
> You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.
> 
> This one is against a front kick.


The catch shown here actually works pretty well... if you include the details you get when not learning it from a book... and when testing it in sparring with different types of martial artists.

If we start by just dealing with a rear leg, front kick... You need to get offline first, so you step with the foot that is on the side you want to go. (right foot first to go to the right) For a front kick, it does not matter which way you go... it will only change which throw you use to finish. So, you step offline, but instead of staying away as was shown, you step diagonally in, while changing levels, getting low. This gets you further offline, and gets your head out of the way of any follow up punch. By going in and getting low, I am trying to keep my left elbow (assume I went to my right, so I parry and catch with my left arm...) close to my body. If I did it right his leg should be making contact with my arm on the out side, my elbow should be just below the level of his leg. If I end up here, it is a simple thing rotate my forearm under his leg and catch the leg. We use different take downs from that point.... I won't say better than those in the video, those were done so poorly, I would want to see them done well in order to make a determination.

Whats key, is that I get offline, so that if i don't catch the kick, I still get out of the way. And I still close distance, either inside or outside. By keeping my elbows tucked to my body, I don't give up my guard, unless I get into the position I want, then I catch the leg. If not, I am in a great position, to punch. It could be a lead punch as I step in, or a reverse punch once the step lands... depends on the situation. What I like about this approach is that I stay on balance, I keep my guard, I involve head movement and a level change, and I am not left vulnerable if I don't catch the foot.

Now, I was talking about the front kick, but this works well for a round house kick as well. Only, now it matters which way you step. You have to step away from the kick, while entering. You want to put yourself in a position where his kick has to cross his own center line to make contact. That should take off a lot of the power. By moving in, you get inside the radius of where he is expecting to throw the power, which also helps. You take whats left on the upper arm, which is tight to your body, and complete the catch. (you also hope the other guy is not a Muay Thai guy, their follow through on their round kicks can still suck with this technique)

Once you have both of those variations down, you need to try to get it in live sparring, with different kinds of kickers. You won't catch every kick, but you should be able to get offline, and close distance... ending in a position where you can counter. If you did catch it... thats cool.

Some things I learned playing with this against different people... You will quickly learn that it gets way harder in live sparring, because you don't know when he will kick, what type of kick it will be or even which leg. So, I go with the percentages. (if I don't know anything about the other guy...) I always move towards the other guys lead foot. This way if he throws a lead foot front kick, rear foot front kick or rear foot round kick, I am good... same response. If he is throwing a lead foot, round kick... thats the issue. But, I am closing distance, and jamming the kick, and my guard is still in place. I still manage to close distance, even with the impact... most of the time.

The other thing I learned is that if I decide to "catch his kick" it will never happen. First I am looking for something to happen, by the time I see it, and recognize it, its too late to decide to catch it. Then the other guy knows what I am doing, and can use feints. However, if I decide to get offline of his attack and close distance, so I can grapple... many times, I will find a leg in my arms... and the times I don't I am counter punching or initiating a grappling attack.

I have caught kicks this way from MMA guys, Kick boxing guys, Kung fu guys, karate guys and Muay Thai guys. (those hurt a bit, even when you catch it) One of the Karate guys was a two time national kumite champion. Yes that is point fighting, but it means he is fast. I am not going to say that the catch is 100%... but the body movement gives me a good defense and closes the distance more often than not.


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## skribs (Apr 15, 2020)

wab25 said:


> The catch shown here actually works pretty well... if you include the details you get when not learning it from a book... and when testing it in sparring with different types of martial artists.
> 
> If we start by just dealing with a rear leg, front kick... You need to get offline first, so you step with the foot that is on the side you want to go. (right foot first to go to the right) For a front kick, it does not matter which way you go... it will only change which throw you use to finish. So, you step offline, but instead of staying away as was shown, you step diagonally in, while changing levels, getting low. This gets you further offline, and gets your head out of the way of any follow up punch. By going in and getting low, I am trying to keep my left elbow (assume I went to my right, so I parry and catch with my left arm...) close to my body. If I did it right his leg should be making contact with my arm on the out side, my elbow should be just below the level of his leg. If I end up here, it is a simple thing rotate my forearm under his leg and catch the leg. We use different take downs from that point.... I won't say better than those in the video, those were done so poorly, I would want to see them done well in order to make a determination.
> 
> ...



A couple of things I want to add. 

You have to consider that the video was probably chosen because things are poorly executed.  That's one tactic that DB uses to win arguments.  Find a bad video that supports his opposition and use it to ridicule them.
Your point about moving offline as the first priority is excellent.  Especially with kicks, the footwork is most important so you're not taking the kick at its strongest point.  I almost had my arm broken blocking a kick at the apex.
You can down block with one hand and still keep half a guard.  It's not as slow to come back up to your head if you miss the kick.  And if you're moving off-line, it's going to throw their aim off, anyway.  I find my cross has a lot less power when thrown 45-degrees to my open side, and it's a lot harder to throw across 45 degrees to my closed side.
I do try and catch kicks when we're allowed to, and I have no problem going for them against the Taekwondo guys I spar with.  Kicks are about all we usually spar with, and I'm able to catch them.  I agree you don't want to over commit to the grab, but it's something I would personally go for.


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## wab25 (Apr 15, 2020)

skribs said:


> I find my cross has a lot less power when thrown 45-degrees to my open side, and it's a lot harder to throw across 45 degrees to my closed side.


For me... (remember I like to grapple and throw... or is it throw and grapple?) If you are throwing the reverse punch at a 45-degree angle to hit the other guy, it means you went too far to the side and not enough forward. As you pointed out, the front kick only covers a few inches that you have to be out of the way of. If you enter diagonally, just enough off to the side that the front kick brushes your arm, you should be able to throw a reverse punch straight down his center line. But then, I am trying to close down as much distance as possible... I don't want to kick a kicker. 

However I am sure that if you went out on the angle you are talking about, where the reverse punch would be at 45 degrees...I bet you could find any number of other techniques, maybe even kicks where you could take advantage of that distance.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 15, 2020)

wab25 said:


> The other thing I learned is that if I decide to "catch his kick" it will never happen. First I am looking for something to happen, by the time I see it, and recognize it, its too late to decide to catch it. Then the other guy knows what I am doing, and can use feints. However, if I decide to get offline of his attack and close distance, so I can grapple... many times, I will find a leg in my arms... and the times I don't I am counter punching or initiating a grappling attack.


This is what I was trying to get at in an earlier post. You've said it more clearly.


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