# Shotokan Karate



## Shinzu (Mar 15, 2002)

do you study the teachings of gichin funakoshi?

what is your favorite aspect of the art?

your toughts and input are greatly appreciated
:asian:


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## arnisador (Mar 20, 2002)

I started off in Okinawan karate (Isshin-ryu, followed by Okinawan Goju-ryu and then by Uechi-ryu) and I prefer those styles, with more circularity, closer-in technqiues (including clear grappling techniques), and generally higher stances. I do of course have some books my Gichin Funakoshi on my shelf!


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## Shinzu (Mar 21, 2002)

i tend to like the japanese arts the best also.  shotokan was the art i was first taught.  i guess you could say it was my first "martial love" hee hee.

i have some of funakoshi's books also.  his insight and knowledge are priceless.


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## Chiduce (Mar 29, 2002)

Has either one of you guys heard or had some studies in Shotokan Aikido? I have seen it on the net and cannot find the original site. It has some very good throwing techniques etc, that are avi. Arnisador; do you feel that isshin ryu or uechi ryu is the better defensive system and why? I trained in the matsumura seito ( hakutsuru) shorin ryu system and would like to get some feedback on the similarities between shorin, isshin, and uechi ryu systems. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Shinzu (Mar 29, 2002)

i am not familiar with shotokan aikido.  

i do know that shotokan has many different throws and takedowns within the system so perhaps it is  combination of both styles developed by a sensei who studied them.


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## arnisador (Mar 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *Has either one of you guys heard or had some studies in Shotokan Aikido?*



A single art named Shotokan Aikido? No, I don't know it.



> *
> Arnisador; do you feel that isshin ryu or uechi ryu is the better defensive system and why?]*




Tough question! Isshin is the harder system and has a very strong punch but I feel that Uechi's blocking and body positioning are better. When I started studying Uechi I didn't understand it but now I think I do and I think that it can be quite effective. If I had to choose one or the other for self-defense I'd take Uechi.



> *
> would like to get some feedback on the similarities between shorin, isshin, and uechi ryu systems.  *



Uechi is _very_ similar to Southern Chinese kung fu of the Southern praying mantis form. It barely looks like karate as one usually thinks of it. Isshin is very straight-on and relatively in-close. Shorin of course I'm sure you know; it uses more open-hand and wider circular techniques than Isshin, for example.


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## Chiduce (Mar 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> Uechi is very similar to Southern Chinese kung fu of the Southern praying mantis form. It barely looks like karate as one usually thinks of it. Isshin is very straight-on and relatively in-close. Shorin of course I'm sure you know; it uses more open-hand and wider circular techniques than Isshin, for example. *


 Thanks for the information. I agree with you on shroin ryu being more circular in application. Yet it is understood more in bunkai. Since the white crane system has it's own kenpo there exists again more bunkai because the same kata is used in both karate-do and kenpo. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## RyuShiKan (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *Has either one of you guys heard or had some studies in Shotokan Aikido?  *




Sure your not thinking of ShoDokan Aikido there is such a thing as that.............but Sotokan Aikido as in the karate........no such thing.


ShoDokan Aikido Honbu website:

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/index_e.html


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## SenseiGR (Jun 18, 2004)

I'd like to check out Uechi-ryu some time; sounds interesting.  Isshinryu teaches both open-hand and "hard" blocks.  Some of us spar using open hands almost exclusively, and lots of circular movements.  I've found as I age I prefer softer techniques.  They are faster and less demanding on the body, yet with technique and knowledge you can still pack a wallop.


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## OC Kid (Jun 18, 2004)

I dont know shotokan however I was orginally ranked in a Japanese system whose forms are very simular to Shotokans. I like the Shotokan forms because they are the cloest to the orginal taught by Funikoshi. With Shito Ryu and others breaking up and fragmenting and tweaking their forms Shotokans has remained the same. I really like that.


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## TimoS (Jun 18, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> With Shito Ryu and others breaking up and fragmenting and tweaking their forms Shotokans has remained the same. I really like that.



As I've understood it, Shotokan is no stranger to fragmentation. I don't practise Shotokan, never have and probably never will (not an interesting style in my opinion), so my knowledge is, admittedly, pretty limited. For example in my previous hometown there are two separate Shotokan groups and they don't have anything to do with each other.  From what my friend who practises Shotokan has told me, all the splinters (can't think of a better word right now) are quite different from each other and they all claim to be teaching the original Funakoshi karate. And besides, Funakoshi (and others in Shotokan after him) changed the kata really lot from what they were originally, so in my opinion saying that Shotokan has remained the same from Funakoshi's time is incorrect. That's not to say that Shotokan isn't good! With a good sensei I'm sure it is an excellent style, but so is every other style


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## OC Kid (Jun 18, 2004)

I look at the "Best karate" series of books. They are written (supposedly) by the "Official" master of ShotoKan Nishiyama (I think thats how you spell his name). It was presented to him through the linage of Funikoshi. Anyway his Kata are almost exactly like the one I was taught and practice and teach.


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## TimoS (Jun 19, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> I look at the "Best karate" series of books. They are written (supposedly) by the "Official" master of ShotoKan Nishiyama (I think thats how you spell his name). It was presented to him through the linage of Funikoshi. Anyway his Kata are almost exactly like the one I was taught and practice and teach.



Like I said, I don't practise Shotokan, so I could be wrong, but I think Nishiyama changed the kata quite a bit. My friend practises Shotokan ryu Kase ha and they are claiming that their kata is in original form or close to it, but as I've understood it, so does every other Shotokan group :idunno: Not that changing the kata is a bad thing in itself


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## Chizikunbo (Jun 19, 2004)

kata were passed down from the masters of old for a reason for the purpose of them being analyzed, to find the bunkai, that is the true art. But some people like Gichen Funakoshi dilluted the kata to where you may if you are lucky find a bunkai technique in one of them so I quote Choki Motobu:

"Funakoshi had great teachers but only learned the outside of karate...He is just a Shamisen player...hes a confindence trickster with a silver tounge...If he fought me I would kick his a** all of the way back to Okinawa..." 
--Choki Motobu
Conversely, Motobu referred to Funakoshis karate as a Shamisen (3 stringed Okinawan guitar), beautiful on the outside but hollow on the inside.

Kata is karate itself...


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## jeffbeish (Jun 22, 2004)

Shotokan is a hard, stiff karate and I never liked it.  When attending the SAC-ARDC training at the Kodokan during the early-1960's sensei Nishiyama and another shotokan sensei taught us the basics.  The Kodokan has a relationship with Shotokan karate from the time Funakoshi instroduced karate to Japan.  Because I lived on and trained in Okianwa karate it seemed to me taht shotokan was a basic style of some Okinawan karate, but at the time was not an expert on either.


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## mcjon77 (Jun 23, 2004)

Chizikunbo said:
			
		

> "Funakoshi had great teachers but only learned the outside of karate...He is just a Shamisen player...hes a confindence trickster with a silver tounge...If he fought me I would kick his a** all of the way back to Okinawa..."
> --Choki Motobu
> Conversely, Motobu referred to Funakoshis karate as a Shamisen (3 stringed Okinawan guitar), beautiful on the outside but hollow on the inside.
> 
> Kata is karate itself...


Great qoute, where did you get it?  Did Motobu have anything else to say about Funakoshi or the other karate masters of that time?

Jon


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## Littledragon (Jun 25, 2004)

I have not taken the art but have studied it through books and readings etc.. I feel that Shotokan is one of the most deadliest Karate styles and one of the most effective Karate styles to be used for street self defense even though it is a traditional martial art.
:asian:


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## TonyU (Jun 25, 2004)

How about Shorinyu? Funakoshi sensei and Chibana sensei were dojo brothers under Itosu sensei. Funakoshi went to Japan but Chibana chose to stay in Okinawa and call his style Shorinryu. But they both had the same teacher. Just thought I'd ask.


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## Littledragon (Jun 25, 2004)

senseibones said:
			
		

> How about Shorinyu? Funakoshi sensei and Chibana sensei were dojo brothers under Itosu sensei. Funakoshi went to Japan but Chibana chose to stay in Okinawa and call his style Shorinryu. But they both had the same teacher. Just thought I'd ask.


Yes Shorinyu Karate is great but I feel it is just too traditional and lacks the intensity of Kyukoshin and Shotokan. But thats just my opinion. 

Tarek Hussein (16)


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## TonyU (Jun 26, 2004)

That tends to be a common misconception. Shorinyu is a more angular style. Our blocks are secondary. In other words the core of the sytem is body shifting and body positioning where we can then concetrate our power into our counter. People tend counfuse it as weak due to the fact that we don't block as hard as Shotokan or Kyokoshin. Now if you're talking about the intesity in training well that may be up to the instructor(s). But every time we train I'm soaked and exhausted. It is also how one trains.


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## TimoS (Jun 26, 2004)

senseibones said:
			
		

> In other words the core of the sytem is body shifting and body positioning where we can then concetrate our power into our counter.



Yep, the best kind of blocking is not to be there when the punch/kick comes  To us, taisabaki is one of the most essential things to learn


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

senseibones said:
			
		

> That tends to be a common misconception. Shorinyu is a more angular style. Our blocks are secondary. In other words the core of the sytem is body shifting and body positioning where we can then concetrate our power into our counter. People tend counfuse it as weak due to the fact that we don't block as hard as Shotokan or Kyokoshin. Now if you're talking about the intesity in training well that may be up to the instructor(s). But every time we train I'm soaked and exhausted. It is also how one trains.


Well its not the art that makes the training exhausted it is up to the persojn how hard they work. But I have seen Shorinyu I don't practice it so I shouldn't make any judgements but from what I have seen and read I feel it is one of the Japanese arts that is too traditional for lets say a street fight. I have seen the articles in black belt when they use Shorinyu for self defense and in my opinion there were way too many theoritical moves executed.

This is just my young opinion but I would love to here more on your knowledge on this art.

Tarek


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## TonyU (Jun 26, 2004)

That's right, what you are seeing is people making it more complicated that what it is. As far as my experience 20 years of training (Yeap I'm a tad older)and 10 years as Narcotics Detective where I have had to put it to good use many a times. It (Shorinyu) has afforded me many tools out on the street even grappling on the ground. Which I love because most untrained suspects choose not to resist after they are taken to the ground. 
One of the things my instructor always said "Our Katas are not pretty or flashy, they just work."


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

senseibones said:
			
		

> That's right, what you are seeing is people making it more complicated that what it is. As far as my experience 20 years of training (Yeap I'm a tad older)and 10 years as Narcotics Detective where I have had to put it to good use many a times. It (Shorinyu) has afforded me many tools out on the street even grappling on the ground. Which I love because most untrained suspects choose not to resist after they are taken to the ground.
> One of the things my instructor always said "Our Katas are not pretty or flashy, they just work."


How effective would that dominantly standing up art be if taken to the ground by a grappler?

Respectfully,
  Tarek :asian:


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## TonyU (Jun 26, 2004)

If taught and trained properly, very effective. There are moves in katas that can be done laying down. There are chokes, arm bars, among other things in katas, but here is the caveat it need to be practiced with a partner. Now don't misunderstand me. No way near the training of BJJ, but practical and efective nevertheless. Many practitioners just do katas but won't practice the techniques. So many traditonal styles like mine won't grapple and only be content with kata. They only do surface karate as I call it. That is why many people turn away from traditional styles. One need to look deeper into the style and break it down. Our instrutor lets us go all out when we fight and I train with a good friend of mine who's in the Marine Corps and teaches Marine Corps Martial Arts. We train hard and fast. You are right our style is dominately a standing up style but we have adopted it to a variety of self defense. When I first started training (many moons ago) I spent weeks, months on break falls and that was when I trained in Shukokai a Shotokan derivative. You usually see that done only in throwing styles like Aikido. When I switched to Shorinyu same thing, coutless hours were spent on getting comfrotable on the ground. My instrutor has also been very open and has had many guest instrutors teach at our dojo, and we are not afraid to "borrow" from other disciplines. It can only enhace you training, but I still beleive that one needs to commit to one discipline and make it your core. Than one can expand. 
That is my humble opinion.
_"It is not the Art that fails the person, It is the person that fails the Art."_


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

senseibones said:
			
		

> If taught and trained properly, very effective. There are moves in katas that can be done laying down. There are chokes, arm bars, among other things in katas, but here is the caveat it need to be practiced with a partner. Now don't misunderstand me. No way near the training of BJJ, but practical and efective nevertheless. Many practitioners just do katas but won't practice the techniques. So many traditonal styles like mine won't grapple and only be content with kata. They only do surface karate as I call it. That is why many people turn away from traditional styles. One need to look deeper into the style and break it down. Our instrutor lets us go all out when we fight and I train with a good friend of mine who's in the Marine Corps and teaches Marine Corps Martial Arts. We train hard and fast. You are right our style is dominately a standing up style but we have adopted it to a variety of self defense. When I first started training (many moons ago) I spent weeks, months on break falls and that was when I trained in Shukokai a Shotokan derivative. You usually see that done only in throwing styles like Aikido. When I switched to Shorinyu same thing, coutless hours were spent on getting comfrotable on the ground. My instrutor has also been very open and has had many guest instrutors teach at our dojo, and we are not afraid to "borrow" from other disciplines. It can only enhace you training, but I still beleive that one needs to commit to one discipline and make it your core. Than one can expand.
> That is my humble opinion.
> _"It is not the Art that fails the person, It is the person that fails the Art."_


Very well said thanks for explaining.

Tarek


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## TimoS (Jun 28, 2004)

senseibones said:
			
		

> It (Shorinyu) has afforded me many tools out on the street even grappling on the ground.



Out of curiosity, which Shorin ryu do you practise ?


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## Littledragon (Jun 28, 2004)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, which Shorin ryu do you practise ?


Ye I was thinking the same thing because I did not know Shorin Ryu was a grappling martial art unless I am mistaken. I thought it was predominantlly a striking art.


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## TimoS (Jun 28, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Ye I was thinking the same thing because I did not know Shorin Ryu was a grappling martial art unless I am mistaken. I thought it was predominantlly a striking art.



Well, yes and no, I guess. I don't practise any Shorin ryu myself, just a close relative  so my comments (and experience) aren't directly comparable, but the way I see it, the comments make perfect sense. The Shorin, or in my case, Shorinji kata do contain a lot that can be used in grappling, if you know how to apply them (I don't, but I've only been practising for a bit under three years, so maybe with time). As for using the moves from kata laying down, I guess that it is entirely possible, but again you just need to look for them and practise them. Of course you should try to avoid going down to ground as much as possible, but sometimes you just can't avoid it


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## Littledragon (Jun 28, 2004)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Well, yes and no, I guess. I don't practise any Shorin ryu myself, just a close relative  so my comments (and experience) aren't directly comparable, but the way I see it, the comments make perfect sense. The Shorin, or in my case, Shorinji kata do contain a lot that can be used in grappling, if you know how to apply them (I don't, but I've only been practising for a bit under three years, so maybe with time). As for using the moves from kata laying down, I guess that it is entirely possible, but again you just need to look for them and practise them. Of course you should try to avoid going down to ground as much as possible, but sometimes you just can't avoid it


But does it really ehmpasize on enough so it is a complete grappling art? Do you think that it focuses on certain applications in order for it to be effective?


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## TimoS (Jun 28, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> But does it really ehmpasize on enough so it is a complete grappling art? Do you think that it focuses on certain applications in order for it to be effective?



Difficult question. What really is a grappling art, especially a complete one ? To me, karate is primarily an art that is done standing up, and that uses mostly blocks, kicks and punches, but the kata do contain a lot of throws, takedowns, locks etc. I have much to discover from karate yet, so I'm not too certain about the focus. My opinion is that yes, it contains basically all you need for just about any range, and the focus is quite dependant on how you are taught, i.e. does your sensei understand these things or do you have to discover them totally by yourself. 
The way we're taught is that sensei doesn't give us everything, we have think ourselves about applications, he might show us only, say, 60% of the stuff and the rest is up to us to discover.


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## Littledragon (Jun 28, 2004)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Difficult question. What really is a grappling art, especially a complete one ? To me, karate is primarily an art that is done standing up, and that uses mostly blocks, kicks and punches, but the kata do contain a lot of throws, takedowns, locks etc. I have much to discover from karate yet, so I'm not too certain about the focus. My opinion is that yes, it contains basically all you need for just about any range, and the focus is quite dependant on how you are taught, i.e. does your sensei understand these things or do you have to discover them totally by yourself.
> The way we're taught is that sensei doesn't give us everything, we have think ourselves about applications, he might show us only, say, 60% of the stuff and the rest is up to us to discover.


Throws and takedowns are different from grappling, I am talking about basically ground fighting like Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, and Sambo. I don't think Shorin Ryu would fit in those categories, actually I am positive its not.


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## TimoS (Jun 28, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Throws and takedowns are different from grappling, I am talking about basically ground fighting like Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, and Sambo. I don't think Shorin Ryu would fit in those categories, actually I am positive its not.



Not as well as judo or BJJ, but I'm fairly sure that it can be adapted, just as (almost) any other style of karate. In my opinion it is only a question of how you practise. 

By the way, not all jujutsu styles teach ground fighting, especially not all the old ones


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## Littledragon (Jun 28, 2004)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Not as well as judo or BJJ, but I'm fairly sure that it can be adapted, just as (almost) any other style of karate. In my opinion it is only a question of how you practise.
> 
> By the way, not all jujutsu styles teach ground fighting, especially not all the old ones


Ye not all the Japanese Ju-Jutsu styles teach ground fighting but I am referring to predominantlly Graice/Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu.


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## TonyU (Jun 28, 2004)

Qoute by TimoS
"Out of curiosity, which Shorin ryu do you practise ?"

I study Kobayashi ShorinRyu. The lineage is as follows; Chibana-Nakazato-Herten-Me.

Quotte by littledragon
"Ye I was thinking the same thing because I did not know Shorin Ryu was a grappling martial art unless I am mistaken. I thought it was predominantlly a striking art."

It isn't. It is a predominately striking art. But it does have some grappling in it and defense against.

Quote by timoS
"Well, yes and no, I guess. I don't practise any Shorin ryu myself, just a close relative  so my comments (and experience) aren't directly comparable, but the way I see it, the comments make perfect sense. The Shorin, or in my case, Shorinji kata do contain a lot that can be used in grappling, if you know how to apply them (I don't, but I've only been practising for a bit under three years, so maybe with time). As for using the moves from kata laying down, I guess that it is entirely possible, but again you just need to look for them and practise them. Of course you should try to avoid going down to ground as much as possible, but sometimes you just can't avoid it"

That was what I was trying to say. When my friend took me down for the first time. I was shocked that I responded well. I instictively fought with effective strikes (While on my back) and then we boh wound up with ankle locks (I tapped out first.) 
I also don't practice to see who pins who first. I practice to survive, break anything I get my hands on. If it's in my grip, it's mine.
TimoS with time you will see the techniques in your katas, they are also in Shotoan katas, and a slew of other predominately striking styles. 
We'll talk some more. I have to get back to work now.


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## TimoS (Jun 28, 2004)

senseibones said:
			
		

> We'll talk some more. I have to get back to work now.



:-offtopic
Getting way off-topic here, but I'm on vacation this week  :boing2: (Which suits me just fine, as this week we'll be having a four day camp here in Finland with the head of our karate style, Iwao Tamotsu sensei :drinkbeer)


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## TonyU (Jun 28, 2004)

Funny you mentioned vacation. So will I as of Friday July 2. Enjoy.


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## marshallbd (Aug 4, 2004)

Shinzu said:
			
		

> do you study the teachings of gichin funakoshi?
> 
> what is your favorite aspect of the art?
> 
> ...


I studied Shotokan during my time stationed overseas (Germany). I thouroughly enjoyed, and still do, the traditional aspect of the art as well as the Kata.  Especially when you begin to discover the Bunkai (sp?).  Never can remember how that is spelled.  I no longer train in a Dojo but have video of Kenneth Funakoshi doing all the Kata and I choose 1 Kata per week and practice it daily for approximately 1 hour per day. (Sundays excluded).  It brings me peace in my soul....Thanks for listening :asian:


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## RRouuselot (Aug 19, 2004)

Chizikunbo said:
			
		

> kata were passed down from the masters of old for a reason for the purpose of them being analyzed, to find the bunkai, that is the true art. But some people like Gichen Funakoshi dilluted the kata to where you may if you are lucky find a bunkai technique in one of them so I quote Choki Motobu:
> 
> "Funakoshi had great teachers but only learned the outside of karate...He is just a Shamisen player...hes a confindence trickster with a silver tounge..*.If he fought me I would kick his a** all of the way back to Okinawa..."*
> --Choki Motobu
> ...


 
 I read a story once where Motobu basically "pimp slapped" Funakoshi in Funakoshi's own dojo infront of his own students. 
 After reading things about Funakoshi and what other Okinawan Karateka thought of him I get the impression he was a major putz.


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## Mekugi (Aug 19, 2004)

He's lucky Jigaro Kano was around from what I hear. There is no telling how long he would have lasted in the Kanto area without him.



			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I read a story once where Motobu basically "pimp slapped" Funakoshi in Funakoshi's own dojo infront of his own students.
> After reading things about Funakoshi and what other Okinawan Karateka thought of him I get the impression he was a major putz.


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## RRouuselot (Aug 19, 2004)

Mekugi said:
			
		

> He's lucky Jigaro Kano was around from what I hear. There is no telling how long he would have lasted in the Kanto area without him.


True. Especially since it was Kano that gave him many introductions to demonstrate karate on the mainland AFTER he arrived. Which actually contradicts what Funakoshi wrote in his book about being "invited" to come to Tokyo and teach. Funakshi was a friggin "handyman" when he first got to Japan.....if he was "invited to teach" as he calims you would think there would be no reason to work as a janitor.
Basically all that I have discovered about Funakoshi leads me to think he was a major wuss and an even bigger liar. He may have studied from some heavy weight teachers in Okinawa but he was far from the "top of his class" in the dojo. He seems more like a "Budo Geisha" rather than a master of the fighting arts. He can be said to have spread karate past the shore of Okinawa but at what price? The karate he taught has been so watered down it hardly resembles what it once was.


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## still learning (Nov 12, 2004)

Hello, I love Shotokan Karate,Yes it is consider a strong stlye compare to the many other arts out there. My teacher quit and we(my son and I) had to stop, the nest nearest school was a Unversal Kempo-karate school. across  the street from us at the elementary school cafe, NO regrets love their stuff too.
 Keep in mind the long and deep stances are for training purpose only(a few styles fight like that..Why?). Mr Funikoshi said the horse stance is for begining students.  Anyone who fights in deep stance,has no moblity?  Watch the best fighters of the world! Copy the best and you will become one of the best too!
 Do not always believe what you see and hear.  Look around,...Bruce Lee did!
 Changes are a part of life!  Shotokan has many hard and soft stuffs..just look.
 Every martial art style is good,but only if you practice hard and always..better to learn to fight one way..then none at all.  Just my thoughts and I have been wrong many times...part of life is moving in the many ways...hope we can always stay on the right path...so many roads?   Aloha


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## RRouuselot (Nov 14, 2004)

still learning said:
			
		

> ..1) Keep in mind the long and deep stances are for training purpose only(a few styles fight like that..Why?).
> 2) Mr Funikoshi said the horse stance is for begining students.  Anyone who fights in deep stance,has no moblity?
> 3) Every martial art style is good,but only if you practice hard and always..better to learn to fight one way..then none at all.  .




1)	You would be surprised at how many Shotokan and other Japanese dojo think those deep stances are actually kamae (fighting stances)
2)	Funakoshi said a lot of other stupid things as well. It is my opinion that all Karate stances are just still photos of transitions of stances used in techniques and not "kamae". Because if you have time enough to get into a kamae then you had time to do something else..
3)	A martial art is only as good as it is passed on. As soon as the next person passing it on doesnt have a clue it will go down hill from there.


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 17, 2004)

that seems to happen a lot in martial arts, robert.
people see a picture.....and they think they have the big picture.
its like watching some people perform a kata.....and its like watching a filmstrip instead of fluid motion. 

shawn


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## RRouuselot (Nov 17, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> that seems to happen a lot in martial arts, robert.
> people see a picture.....and they think they have the big picture.
> its like watching some people perform a kata.....and its like watching a filmstrip instead of fluid motion.
> 
> shawn



Sorry, i am not following what you said...
What seems to happen a lot in martial arts?


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 17, 2004)

people will learn kata out of a book........and see only the very last movement of a particular technique......whether its a long wide stance or something transitional. as you watch them go through the kata you can see them stop at these particular places,which makes the kata appear robotic. im not trying to point fingers, but ive seen this alot in a particular art.

shawn


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## RRouuselot (Nov 18, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> 1) people will learn kata out of a book........2)and see only the very last movement of a particular technique......whether its a long wide stance or something transitional. as you watch them go through the kata you can see them stop at these particular places,which makes the kata appear robotic. im not trying to point fingers, but ive seen this alot in a particular art.
> 
> shawn



1)	I hope not. Learning from books and video is a poor way to study martial arts. 
2)	Sorry to pick on Shotokan but I have been many shotokan dojo in Japan and they are stiff and roboticmy friend has a nickname fo them...."shoto-clone"....because they all look like they came from a cookie-cutter...I have yet to seen one that teaches any practical bunkai.in fact all I have ever seen taught was point sparring techniques


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## ShotoSan (Dec 8, 2004)

I have studied Shotokan for 9 years or so, and I have noticed it to be extemely fragmented. I was lucky to have an amazing Sensai, who did not stick to the traditional ways of Shotokan, and let our teachings expand beyond simply, kata. However, upon meeting Sensai Tsurouka (the apprent grand master), I notice a few things. Has anyone even heard of him?! The current grand master of Kindai Bojutsu (Brain Welcher) who has 3rd dan in Shotokan has not. So its confusing to me a little...

 However, I would like to say that Shotokan karate ka can be one of the best forms of karate, if you study from an open minded teacher...

 as far as fragmented would go... very much so....


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## ShotoSan (Dec 8, 2004)

Ahh my post above, just wanna continue.

Many people say that Shotokan is very stiff and its overpowerd, so there is no fluidity. My study has never been stiff in any sort. I studied for about 7 years or so, and that was the first time I saw what 'real Shotokan' was; we had some other school come and visit ours, and yes - HOLY MOLY - there where 
 a) TERRIBLE  -  Many of them did not know how to spar, they stuck to the kata movements they learned, which was most embarasing for them...
 b) very robotic like
 c) They over emphasised powerful movements, which also lacked balance
 d) they had to control, in the sense that they did not know where there target is located at

Shotokan would seem to me, like a horrible form of karate. At the same time I would say that, Shotokan is one of the best... again, its too bad there are so many McSensai... that is was cauases fragmentation


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## RRouuselot (Dec 8, 2004)

ShotoSan said:
			
		

> I have studied Shotokan for 9 years or so, and I have noticed it to be extemely fragmented. I was lucky to have an amazing Sensai, who did not stick to the traditional ways of Shotokan, and let our teachings expand beyond simply, kata.
> 1) However, upon meeting Sensai Tsurouka (the apprent grand master), I notice a few things. Has anyone even heard of him?! The current grand master of Kindai Bojutsu (Brain Welcher) who has 3rd dan in Shotokan has not. So its confusing to me a little...
> 
> However, I would like to say that Shotokan karate ka can be one of the best forms of karate, if you study from an open minded teacher...
> ...


 
 1) What style is Tsuruoka Grandmaster of? I know he is not the grandmaster of Shotokan......I have never heard of hm...where is he based?


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## ShotoSan (Dec 8, 2004)

To the post above - Apparently Sensai Tsurouka claims to be the founder of Shotokan. He has a son named David Tsurouka... Hes been 'founder' since I was about 7 or so, and before that Im not too sure.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 8, 2004)

ShotoSan said:
			
		

> To the post above - Apparently Sensai Tsurouka claims to be the founder of Shotokan. He has a son named David Tsurouka... Hes been 'founder' since I was about 7 or so, and before that Im not too sure.


 Uh....I can safely say he is not.
 Do a google search and you can find out who the founder of shotokan is.


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## ShotoSan (Dec 9, 2004)

yes, google in Sensai Tsurouka and it will tell you he is... I have tried to Goggle Shotokan, and I find conflicting results... Just who is the founder? Why have I studied 9 years and dont know who it is?!


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## RRouuselot (Dec 9, 2004)

ShotoSan said:
			
		

> yes, google in Sensai Tsurouka and it will tell you he is... I have tried to Goggle Shotokan, and I find conflicting results... Just who is the founder? Why have I studied 9 years and dont know who it is?!


   Funakoshi Gichin was the founder of Shotokan.

   I think this is your teacher, it says he teaches shotokan in one place and chito ryu in another:

* Tsuruoka Karate Federation *

_ The Tsuruoka Federation was founded in 1995.  
*Masami Tsurouka* 
 Sensei Masami Tsuruoka is the founder and chief insructor of Tsuruoka Karate, based in Toronto, Canada. The Karate practiced is essentially traditional Shotokan..........

_ _
_ _
_ _Dalgleish Sensei begins his martial arts training under Tsurouka Masami Sensei, head instructor of Chito-ryu Karate in Toronto, Canada. He studies with Tsurouka Sensei for a period of two years obtaining the rank of 1st kyu in Chito-ryu Karate.


_  Master Bob Dalgleish started his initial training in 1959 under the guidance of  Master Masami Tsuruoka, 9th Dan and head instructor of the Chito Ryu style of  karate do in Toronto, Ontario. Master Dalgleish studied with master Tsuruoka for  a period of two years after which he journeyed to California to continue his  studies under Shotokan Master Hidetaka Nishiyama. Remaining with Nishiyama for a  period of two years off and on, Master Bob Dalgleish attained the level of 1st  kyu brown belt in the Shotokan School of karate-do.  

    Having attained two separate grades of brown belt, Master Dalgleish then  traveled throughout the United States and Canada, gaining knowledge and sharing  with karate-ka throughout the nation. From 1959-1964 Master Dalgleish studied  and trained in the following styles:


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## marshallbd (Jan 2, 2005)

ShotoSan said:
			
		

> yes, google in Sensai Tsurouka and it will tell you he is... I have tried to Goggle Shotokan, and I find conflicting results... Just who is the founder? Why have I studied 9 years and dont know who it is?!


Read this book...."Karate-Do: My way of Life" by Funakoshi Gichin. It will tell you all about the early days and the development of Shotokan... :asian:


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## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> Read this book...."Karate-Do: My way of Life" by Funakoshi Gichin. It will tell you all about the early days and the development of Shotokan... :asian:


 You may not have noticed but "Shotosan" has become a banned user.


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## marshallbd (Jan 3, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> You may not have noticed but "Shotosan" has become a banned user.


No, I did not notice that.  I have been off the board for about 3 months now and have not kept up with things.  But I am back and ready to read all the interesting post here and occasionally throw in my 2 cents. :asian:


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## marshallbd (Jan 3, 2005)

By the way, I tested for 1st Dan way back in Sept.  I did not pass but was given some pointers on improvement......I mainly had a hard time with the sparring.  I just could not focus and was not able to effectively defend myself and got stomped pretty good.  I should retest around Feb.  (I should have taken the test more seriously and trained harder!)  I will not make that mistake again! :asian:


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## kishoto (Feb 13, 2005)

there is no true shotokan style. shotokan was the name of funakoshi dojo the japanese goverment built him. most people do not understand shotokans true nature in that it is allways developing and changing to adapt to modern times. that is why funakoshi has the tittle of father of modern karate. he was a very open minded teacher not like most of his students he felt karate had to evolve to grow. study the true history of founders not styles. thats what i did in my 38 years of training


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## RRouuselot (Feb 13, 2005)

kishoto said:
			
		

> 1) there is no true shotokan style.
> 
> 2) shotokan was the name of funakoshi dojo the japanese goverment built him.
> 
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Can you elaborate on this sort of blanket statement?

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Japanese Gov. built? According to what source?. I have always read that his students chipped in and re-built him a dojo

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]I disagree. I thinkno make that I know karate changed when going to Japan from Okinawa and Funakoshi changed many things due to political & cultural pressure. The names of the kata for one..

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]That can be seen as a great title or as a derogatory remark depending on how you look at it. I view it as a derogatory remark since he seems to have botched up karate pretty badly.

   5)[font=&quot]      [/font]How do you know this? Did you speak with him? Seems to me he made a comment about combing arts like jujutsu and karate was a dumb idea. From what I have read about him he disliked change even though he said karate must change with the times. Also, many of his students were major reformers of the style..Nakayama comes to mind.

   6)[font=&quot]      [/font]I have followed the life of Funakoshi from books written in both English and Japanese.I think he was a backstabbing, lying, conniving little whimp that couldnt walk it like he talked it..which was proven to many of Funakoshis students by Motobu.


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## TimoS (Feb 13, 2005)

kishoto said:
			
		

> there is no true shotokan style.



At least not in the sense that there are many "factions" that most, if not all, claim to be teaching the one true Shotokan that Funakoshi himself taught. I guess the JKA Shotokan is the "main line", but wasn't it modified by Nakayama and others after Funakoshi's death ?


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## RRouuselot (Feb 14, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> At least not in the sense that there are many "factions" that most, if not all, claim to be teaching the one true Shotokan that Funakoshi himself taught. I guess the JKA Shotokan is the "main line", but wasn't it modified by Nakayama and others after Funakoshi's death ?


 
   This is true.

   After Funakoshis death Nakayama and several other groups got together and tried to standardize the kata in order to have tournaments that all groups could participate in.


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## GAB (Feb 20, 2005)

Hi RobertR.

I have read a few of Gichin Funakoshi's Books or 'translations'...One of them is a short one that pops up in quite a few of the various Katate schools with different names or interpretations...The Twenty guiding Principles of Karate...

Have you read that and if so? Any thoughts as to where and who really wrote these words of wisdom??? Have they been around since the time of the early Chinese Scholars with a different twist???Or???

GM James Mitose even has a book that was published after his death that was similar...
Regards, Gary


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 20, 2005)

Not to disrupt this thread but if you wish to disscuss GAB's last post please start a different thread.  This thread has been running pretty smoothly with Shotokan as the topic  lets keep it that way


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## GAB (Feb 20, 2005)

Hi tshadowchaser,

Could you suggest how else I would have asked this question other then in this thread??? I thank you for the advice...

Regards, Gary


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## RRouuselot (Feb 20, 2005)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi RobertR.
> 
> I have read a few of Gichin Funakoshi's Books or 'translations'...One of them is a short one that pops up in quite a few of the various Katate schools with different names or interpretations...The Twenty guiding Principles of Karate...
> 
> ...


    Tshadowchaser, 

    No disrespect but this is the first post in this thread:



> do you study the teachings of gichin funakoshi?
> 
> what is your favorite aspect of the art?
> 
> your toughts and input are greatly appreciated


 
    Given that these were part of Funakoshi's teachings I dont think GABs question was off topic.



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> Hi RobertR.
> 
> I have read a few of Gichin Funakoshi's Books or 'translations'...One of them is a short one that pops up in quite a few of the various Katate schools with different names or interpretations...The Twenty guiding Principles of Karate...
> 
> ...


    I was under the impression that Bushi Matsumura was a possible author.

·  Karate is not only dojo training. 

·  Don't forget that Karate begins with a bow and ends with a bow. 

·  In Karate, never attack first. 

·  One who practices Karate must follow the way of justice 

·  First you must know yourself. Then you can know others. 

·  Spiritual development is paramount; technical skills are merely means to the end. 

·  You must release your mind 

·  Misfortune comes out of laziness. 

·  Karate is a lifelong training. 

·  Put Karate into everything you do. 

·  Karate is like hot water. If you do not give heat constantly it will again become cold. 

·  Do not think you have to win. Think that you do not have to lose. 

·  Victory depends on your ability to tell vulnerable points from invulnerable ones. 

·  Move according to your opponent. 

·  Consider your opponent's hands and legs as you would sharp swords. 

·  When you leave home, think that millions of opponents are waiting for you. 

·  Ready position for beginners and natural position for advanced students. 

·  Kata is one thing. Engaging in a real fight is another. 

· Do not forget (1)strength and weakness of power, (2)expansion and contraction of the body, (3)slowness and speed of techniques. 

·  Devise at all times.


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## Sam (Feb 21, 2005)

I have to admit that I'm surprised at the lack of knowledge of the history of Shotokan. I looked through the whole thread and didn't see the following info anywhere. If this was posted earlier, I apologize. 
   This is the readers digest condensed version

  Funakoshi learned Shuri-Te as did the founders of Shorin-Ryu. The Heian kata are actually modified versions of the Pinan kata. 

 The name Shotokan DID come from the name Funakoshi gave his dojo. The Japanese are big on naming styles and lineages. Funakoshi simply called what he taught Kara Te. So people started calling it Shotokan as that was the name of the home dojo.

 Back to Shotokan development. Some of the modifications to Shotokan were due to mainland Japanese influence. Those who have Karatedo Kyohan, look at the pictures of Funakoshi- his stances are shorter and higher than shotokan stances. This is not because he was old. The stances were deepened, in part by his Japanese students due to the influence of kendo in Japanese society. (The same thing happened to Japanese Goju under Yamaguchi)

 In addition, some things were modified to allow competition between University Clubs, something Funakoshi allowed, although he was not happy with it.

 When Funakoshi died Nakayama was named to head the JKA. At this point a fracture already started to occur, Tsutomu Oshima was taching in the US. The JKA started making further modifications and he refused to accept them, so he started the SKA.

 Later, internal disagreements occured and more fracturing took place. Nishiyama and Kanazawa broke away and formed their own Shotokan organizations. This continued among senior Japanese teachers for one reason or another, and more offshoots were created. Ryobu-Kai was formed under Yamazaki. Wado-ryu was formed to include some principles from Aikido. This splitting continues until this day.

 In the US another problem occured. There was the issue that, for years, the JKA refused to rank any non-Japanese higher than 5th dan. A good example of someone that was shortchanged for years is Ray Dalke. This caused more fracturing as people deserving promotion were not promoted while Japanese with less experience and sometimes ability were promoted past them. 

 Today, who knows how many offshoots of Shotokan there are. The same can be said of virtually any art. As an aside, someone thought Shito-ryu was related to Shotokan. Actually, Shito-ryu is basically a combination of Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu. Also, someone mentioned Shorin-Ryu and Shorinji-ryu as if they were the same style. They aren't. There are vast differences in the two.

 This info is gleaned from several sources. Never trust just one source when studying martial art lineages as too many people try to establish themselves as the "one true heir", so will slant the history in their favor.


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## TimoS (Feb 21, 2005)

Sam said:
			
		

> Wado-ryu was formed to include some principles from Aikido.



That was news to me. I was under the impression that it was jujutsu



> Also, someone mentioned Shorin-Ryu and Shorinji-ryu as if they were the same style. They aren't. There are vast differences in the two.



Yes and no. E.g. Shorin ryu Seibukan was at some stage in it's history called Shorinji ryu. So the difference isn't necessarily that big between the two.


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## GAB (Feb 21, 2005)

Hi all,

I have a couple of books that were written by Jose M. Fraguas, Published right in big old downtown Burbank CA...   Old joke on tv. Area of my youth...

Karate Masters and the Masters Speak...Both are full of good information, but...quite a few typos and Ego..I give it a B if I was critiquing...

But it does put lots of information at your disposal if you want to know what came from where and so forth. One thing I was glad to see was a reference to Chito Ryu and Shi-to Ryu and why the name is that and so forth, sort of like Shih-Tzu.

In English we still have a hard time getting by words that look odd so we make fun of them...I remember when I was still on the Kenpo net board and they would delete the word Shito, because they had no knowledge and they just did it...

I will say one thing about Martialtalk lots of information and you don't need to buy a bunch of books either....Cuts down on some of the various reading material, the problem, I don't have a lap top...So the books...

Regards, Gary


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## Sam (Feb 21, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> That was news to me. I was under the impression that it was jujutsu
> Yes and no. E.g. Shorin ryu Seibukan was at some stage in it's history called Shorinji ryu. So the difference isn't necessarily that big between the two.


I stand corrected- although I've actually hada Wado-Ryu instructor tell me it was Aikido.

The Shorinji Ryu I'm refering to is the style currently going by that name, which is Shorinji Ryu taught by Richard Kim, and Sakugawa Koshiki Shorinji Ryu. These are different from Seibukan Shorin-Ryu


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## TimoS (Feb 21, 2005)

Sam said:
			
		

> I stand corrected- although I've actually hada Wado-Ryu instructor tell me it was Aikido.



Interesting. As far as I remember the founder of Wado ryu, Hironori Ohtsuka was a supposedly a high ranking jujutsu teacher in Shindo Yoshin ryu before he started studying karate. 



> The Shorinji Ryu I'm refering to is the style currently going by that name, which is Shorinji Ryu taught by Richard Kim, and Sakugawa Koshiki Shorinji Ryu. These are different from Seibukan Shorin-Ryu



Oh yes, of course. You know, I actually thought you might be referring to Richard Kim's Shorinji right after I pressed submit, but I was feeling too lazy edit my post  

Sakugawa Koshiki Shorinji ryu I'm not at all familiar with. I'm fairly sure I've heard the name before, but that is all. There are so many different Shorin and Shorinji schools out there that it gets a bit hard to follow them all


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## RRouuselot (Feb 21, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> 1) That was news to me. I was under the impression that it was jujutsu
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no. E.g. Shorin ryu Seibukan was at some stage in it's history called Shorinji ryu. So the difference isn't necessarily that big between the two.


 
 Your right it was jujutsu. Ohtsuka the founder of Wado was a 6th dan in jujutsu.

   Much of what SAM wrote has been discussed so many times already that its kind of like a broken record.


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## kishoto (Mar 6, 2005)

Seems like most of you want to put down shotokan karate. WHY. I have studied shotokan for 38 years it is my primary style. I have also trained in many other styles creating a style that combines all but shotokan is my foundation. Dont put down what you dont understand because there are no pure styles.(o bye the way there is no such thing as shotokan that was funakoshi first dojo in japan) study the history before making a statement.  kishoto


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 6, 2005)

while shotokan was indeed the name of funakoshi's school........the name has since become synonymous with the method he taught.


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## RRouuselot (Mar 6, 2005)

kishoto said:
			
		

> Seems like most of you want to put down shotokan karate. WHY. I have studied shotokan for 38 years it is my primary style.
> 
> 1) I have also trained in many other styles creating a style that combines all but shotokan is my foundation.
> 
> 2) Dont put down what you dont understand because there are no pure styles.3) o bye the way there is no such thing as shotokan that was funakoshi first dojo in japan) study the history before making a statement. kishoto


     1) Uh?????

 2) Some of us have trained in Shotokan.some of us have trained at the Honbu in Japan with the head teachers there..so some of us have a pretty good insight as to what Shotokan is. 

 3) Looks like you are the one that needs to read their history. It was the name Funakoshi used to sign his calligraphy with and then the name his students called his first dojo but later Funakoshi himself used the name shotokan for his style.


*Birthday*:
  February 14, 1955 

*Real Name*:
  Randell Kitchens 

*Location*:
  Mississippi 

*Primary Art and Ranking*:
  kishoto ryu kenpo 9th black 

*Interests*:
  martial arts 

*Arts*:
  shotokan,kenpo,jujitsu 

*Training*:
  38 years of training, founder of ki shoto ryu kenpo, head of one organization advisor to several more, *inducted into world head of family sokeship hall of fame* 

*Organizations*:
  magnolia shotokan federation, magnolia martial arts association,ozark mountion karate association



    I see in your profile that you are a member of the infamous mutual dan rank society known as *world head of family sokeship hall of fame *

 If you consider that a legit enough organization to put it in your profile that pretty much speaks volumes to me.....they are a joke...


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## kishoto (Jul 31, 2005)

sorry i am late replying to statement. so you believe the world head of soke ship council is a joke. this means you believe chuck norris,bill wallace,kathy long,joe lewis,don wilson,and many others that are not movie stars or full contact fighters are jokes. i have worked out with these and many more they are not jokes. open your mind and your true martial spirit will emerge until then you will never experiance your own martial arts just what someone teaches you.


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## Gene Williams (Jul 31, 2005)

kishoto said:
			
		

> sorry i am late replying to statement. so you believe the world head of soke ship council is a joke. this means you believe chuck norris,bill wallace,kathy long,joe lewis,don wilson,and many others that are not movie stars or full contact fighters are jokes. i have worked out with these and many more they are not jokes. open your mind and your true martial spirit will emerge until then you will never experiance your own martial arts just what someone teaches you.


The name itself is a joke, as is the concept. The organization is always graspingly inviting people with Hollywood names to join or making them honorary members. Norris, Kathy Long, Wallace and Wilson were primarily tournament point fighters who got a lot of BB magazine coverage and a few B grade movie contracts. Lewis is indeed one Hell of a fighter and to be respected for that. None of the others were in his class as an actual full contact fighter. Norris is a good man and has done tons of stuff for charitable causes. But, in the eyes of traditional karate ka they are not traditionalists. No serious  practitioner of a traditional ryu would set himself up as a "soke." The term is misunderstood and misused  by the organization and the people in it. There are many people who have been in the traditional arts longer than you have been in whatever you are in and would never refer to themselves as "soke," grand master," "master," or make claims of 9th dan, blah, blah. Some of their names: Hayashi, Kuniba, Higioshi, Nishiyama, Oyata, Demura, Higaonna, Mabuni, Motobu, and many others. There are practitioners on this and other forums who have forgotten more real martial arts than you know who would never do so, either. Now, what makes you so special, Mr. Soke?


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## kishoto (Aug 6, 2005)

i have not asked for tittle of soke or grandmaster all my rank above fifth dan we recieved under protest. 20 years ago i to believed that there should be a pure style but if this was true then there would be no improvement. there will allways be some that corupt instead of improving. these are the ones that recieve the most attention. think of this if a tree stops growing it decays and dies. so the arts need to grow. as for the dojo name i know shoto was his pen name and kan means hall. if one of my students showed the disrespect for a brother in the arts no matter the rank they would never be allowed in my dojo again. things like this is the tradition i am trying to keep alive mostly respect try it you may like it


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## Gene Williams (Aug 7, 2005)

kishoto said:
			
		

> i have not asked for tittle of soke or grandmaster all my rank above fifth dan we recieved under protest. 20 years ago i to believed that there should be a pure style but if this was true then there would be no improvement. there will allways be some that corupt instead of improving. these are the ones that recieve the most attention. think of this if a tree stops growing it decays and dies. so the arts need to grow. as for the dojo name i know shoto was his pen name and kan means hall. if one of my students showed the disrespect for a brother in the arts no matter the rank they would never be allowed in my dojo again. things like this is the tradition i am trying to keep alive mostly respect try it you may like it


You don't seem too strong on the tradition of English grammar and punctuation, either. You don't get respect just because you come up with some mishmash like the above and call yourself a martial artist. If Shotokan is your primary style, why isn't that good enough? I don't know, but I would bet pretty good money that, if you went and trained in any traditional Shotokan dojo or any other traditional dojo, you'd look about like a green belt. Again, just a bet; however I've had plenty who puke out the same garbage as you come through and it is the same every time.


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## kishoto (Aug 8, 2005)

try me and see. look on my website for diections or email to set a time and place.


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## Gene Williams (Aug 8, 2005)

I went to your website, but it doesn't tell me very much about your training or under whom you trained. I see you claim shodan in Shito ryu. Who did you train under for that? Love that red and black gi! How about a clip of you or your students doing kata or fighting or something.


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 10, 2005)

kishoto said:
			
		

> i have not asked for tittle of soke or grandmaster all my rank above fifth dan we recieved under protest.


Than why do you list your 9th Dan in your profile?

I studied for 7 years and was a brown belt. My instructor had 15 years (JKA then SKA) and she was a Nidan. Mr. Williams lists 35 years of training in his profile and is a sixth dan. How did you make ninth dan in 20 years and how do you expect it to be taken seriously?


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## The Kai (Aug 10, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I went to your website, but it doesn't tell me very much about your training or under whom you trained. I see you claim shodan in Shito ryu. Who did you train under for that? Love that red and black gi! How about a clip of you or your students doing kata or fighting or something.


3

Where/How did you find the website??


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## Gene Williams (Aug 10, 2005)

Just type in karate/kishoto ryu.


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## kishoto (Aug 11, 2005)

where did you get 20 years i started at age 12 i will soon be 51. do the math. as for my gi it  was a gift from a direct studant of hokan soken.as for mine and my students ability you are welcome to come and try our ability. i will pay your expences.


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