# teaching tegumi?



## Brian S (Aug 22, 2008)

I've heard and read about people teaching tegumi. Isn't tegumi just something people make up to seem more "okinawan" for lack of a better term.

 Do you believe there really is tegumi in karate? Can you prove it?


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## Andrew Green (Aug 22, 2008)

Brian S said:


> I've heard and read about people teaching tegumi. Isn't tegumi just something people make up to seem more "okinawan" for lack of a better term.
> 
> Do you believe there really is tegumi in karate? Can you prove it?



My understanding is tegumi is a completely separate sport, basically a Okinawan variation of Sumo.  According to Funakoshi's book it was a childrens game / sport.

I don't know a lot about it, but it does require a belt to play, as grabbing and controlling the person from the belt is a important element.  I suspect that most karate schools claiming to teach it are not teaching anything that would be recognized as "Tegumi" by anyone in Okinawa 80 years ago though.


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## Ray B (Aug 22, 2008)

Tegumi &#25163;&#32068;
Kumite &#32068;&#25163;

Same same.
Tegumi as I understand it is more like Jujitsu. Can I prove it? I have
trouble proving anything these days. If you take the word of past masters
and current senior karateka, I would say yes. This is what Pat McCarthy
has to say about it.

"Identifying that no less than four individual combative-like disciplines were once embraced during Okinawa's old Ryukyu Kingdom Period, I made a meticulous study of #1. Kata; the original Chinese form [Hsing] of human movement vigorously embraced by men [young & old] of wealth and position, #2. Torite [qinna]; techniques of seizing and controlling employed by local law-enforcement officials, #3. Tegumi; an old Chinese-based [Shuai Chiao] method of clinching & grappling practiced by boys and young men of every age, and #4. Tigwa; a plebeian form of percussive impact brought to the island from the Kingdom of Siam [Siamese boxing]."


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## Jin Gang (Aug 23, 2008)

I believe "tegumi" is just a name that people have started giving to grappling and grabbing techniques in their karate.  It makes it sound older, or like they have knowledge that was once lost.  It's true that not a lot of karate schools really know or teach the grappling applications from the kata.  So saying you have "tegumi" sets you apart from those other schools.


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## arnisador (Aug 25, 2008)

Okinawan karate is overwhelmingly Southern Chinese kung fu in origin. There's some older Okinawan standing grappling of some sort in it, I believe, but it's primarily kung fu filtered through the prism of Okinawn sensibilities, as Tae Kwon Do is Shotokan Karate reinterpreted in the light of Korean culture.

But, I remember how successful the kyusho-jutsu pressure point stuff "hidden in the kata" was for advertising purposes!


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## Brian S (Aug 25, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Okinawan karate is overwhelmingly Southern Chinese kung fu in origin. There's some older Okinawan standing grappling of some sort in it, I believe, but it's primarily kung fu filtered through the prism of Okinawn sensibilities, as Tae Kwon Do is Shotokan Karate reinterpreted in the light of Korean culture.
> 
> But, I remember how successful the kyusho-jutsu pressure point stuff "hidden in the kata" was for advertising purposes!


 
 Thankyou!  PP's were "hidden" in the kata. Now all of a sudden "tegumi" has been in the kata all along!! Funny how the tegumi groundfighting techniques have mma names,lol!

 I'm all for crosstraining and integrating. I just don't see the purpose of claiming kata has everything.


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## Josann (Aug 26, 2008)

"I'm all for crosstraining and integrating. I just don't see the purpose of claiming kata has everything."

I agree. I think that each student has to take responsibility how he can use his karate effectively FOR HIM. I never believed that anything is "hidden" in the kata. This is something that each art says so that the practitioners can believe that their karate is complete or the best, as if they are somehow better or more protected  because they are studying the one true karate. 

Cross training is one of the best ways to figure out how your kata study can be used effectively in practical self defense. It also keeps you humble. Getting throw around by another stylist is the best way to keep it all fresh if you can keep your ego in check.

Please don't think that I am anti karate. I have 18 years consistent study in uechi ryu and still am learning how to apply what I study. As I get older it continues to evolve, but I don't believe that this great style has everything in it.


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## chinto01 (Aug 26, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> My understanding is tegumi is a completely separate sport, basically a Okinawan variation of Sumo.  According to Funakoshi's book it was a childrens game / sport.
> 
> I don't know a lot about it, but it does require a belt to play, as grabbing and controlling the person from the belt is a important element.  I suspect that most karate schools claiming to teach it are not teaching anything that would be recognized as "Tegumi" by anyone in Okinawa 80 years ago though.



I agree with you that this was a form of wrestling. Did it contain ground fighting applications or some sort of jujutsu? Who knows.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## chinto01 (Aug 26, 2008)

This is from wikipedia.

Tegumi
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tegumi is a traditional form of wrestling from Okinawa.
According to Shoshin Nagamine, in his "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters", there are no accurate historical documents surrounding the origins of grappling in Okinawa. Like most other forms of wrestling it seems that tegumi evolved from a primitive form of grappling self defense, which was constantly being adapted and enhanced as it was exposed to outside influences.
It is believed by some, Shoshin Nagamine Sensei included, that tegumi was probably the original form of fighting in Okinawa and, as it was enhanced by striking and kicking techniques imported from China, became the progenitor of Te, which is the foundation of modern Karate.
Known as tegumi in Naha, and mutou in Tomari and Shuri, Okinawan wrestling remained a popular cultural recreation until the Taisho period (1912  1925). There is little evidence of how tegumi evolved but the result was a rough and tumble bout where the winner was decided by submission, through joint locks, strangles or pinning. Today, tegumi has a strict set of rules and is still practiced widely.
Okinawan folklore is full of references to tegumi and it is believed that the island's version of sumo can find its roots in the rural wrestling of the past.

Hope this helps.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## Makalakumu (Dec 7, 2008)

Brian S said:


> I just don't see the purpose of claiming kata has everything.


 
I don't see why a person has to limit their understanding of kata.  Kata may not have "everything" but that doesn't mean that they can't evolve.  There ARE grappling and clinching techniques in kata.  What is so wrong with building on that knowledge?  How about forming new relationships with kata in order to make that happen?  How about designing a set of two person newaza kata based off of some of the principles kata teach and maybe some stuff from wrestling, judo, or BJJ?  The original kata didn't form in a vacuum.  The people who made them, learned from all kinds of sources.  I have no problem with any of this.

I do have a problem with calling it tegumi.  That isn't historically accurate.  You could call it newaza kata or something or even judo no kata.  Calling it tegumi is a little dishonest.


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## seasoned (Dec 7, 2008)

[quote I'm all for crosstraining and integrating. I just don't see the purpose of claiming kata has everything.[/quote]

Not to get off point, but something needs to be addressed. Of course kata does not have all techniques within it. The only claims I have seen are that there is enough within them that goes beyond just punching and kicking. We keep confusing self defense with sport. Now back to Tegumi.


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