# Importance of Rank



## MBuzzy (Oct 4, 2008)

The Dan Bon thread got me thinking a little and I suppose that the concept of rank within martial arts is a very personal thing.  Obviously it has a lot to do with protocol and "where you line up" kinds of things.  What I'm curious about is your personal feelings on rank.  

A big part of that, of course is how your studio and organization deals with it.  I've noticed a huge difference between instructors, studios, and even between other students.  

For example, there are some who will call their senior "sir/ma'ma" under any circumstances, in and out of the Dojang and show a great deal of respect at all times.  There are others who show the proper amount of "rank respect" in the Dojang, but outside the studio, it is back to first names and normal every day interactions.

Age in some cases has a great deal of influence.  For example, you have much older people with lower ranks and much younger people with higher ranks.  I've seen both extremes....higher ranks treating all lower ranks as inferiors and with equal respect, as well as lower ranks treating all higher ranks with indifference and with maximum respect.

My military experience has led to think about rank in Martial Arts much differently.  We all have to work our way through the ranks (be it Officer or Enlisted), you always have a chance to be the lower ranks, just like in the Martial Arts.  But I see many less instances of higher ranks "forgetting where they came from" in the Military.

So what are your feelings on rank in the Martial Arts, particularly TSD/SBD?  How does your studio and organization handle it, simply as a matter of protocol or something that infiltrates all of your interactions?

I put this in TSD/SBD because not all arts have the same rank structure and have vastly different basic assumptions about rank.


----------



## Makalakumu (Oct 4, 2008)

Rank isn't something I get hung up on.  I think that earning shodan is really important and all of the dan ranks afterward are a bit of a waste.  IMO, I think there should be a clear distinction between the curriculum for gups and dans.  There should be A LOT more flexibility and ROOM for growth at the dan ranks.  

A well structured and ordered gup program is important.  Laying the foundations and principles for future understanding requires this.  At some point, the organization needs to relax and give people freedom.


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Oct 8, 2008)

Craig,
You hit the nail on the head...

Rank is strictly a personal thing. The only people that your rank should matter too is you, and your instructor, as the true value of rank is to determine how far you have gone in your instructors program. It is the guage that we use to remind us where you are in our curriculum and nothing more.

John,
You, as always have great insight as to what is important...

When Sensei Carbone brought Sensei Nakamoto, Kiichi here earlier this past year I asked Sensei Carbone; what should we call Sensei Nakamoto? Should we call him Soke or Grand Master?

Sensei Carbone responded; No, just Sensei.

I asked him; surely if anyone has earned the right to be called Soke or Grand Master it must be Sensei Nakamoto, Kiichi. He has earned the rank ot 10th degree black belt in 4 major systems of Okinawan martial arts. He is the highest ranking Okinawan alive today!!!

Sensei Carbone stated; Penfil Sensei, in the Okinawan culture it is concidered rude and egocentric to have others call you Soke or Grand Master. If he is writing a formal letter or signing a certificate he will sign and stamp it with his title, but in the spoken word, simply Sensei.

No mention of rank is necessary. He knows who he is, and he knows what he is...

We all should learn from this great example. 

You both had the opportunity to meet with me and many other great individuals (regardless or rank or system) at my dojo in February. You got to see a gathering of 40+ martial practitioners come together for great training and learning with no ego's in the room for the entire weekend. 

I got to learn just as much as you guys did. Just by being present in the room with you I was introduced to new ideas and concept. I thank you both for your individual input that weekend and the greqt conversations that have followed since.

If more instructors would climb down off or their rank pedestols, we would all have a better learning experience...


All the best,


Sensei Jay S. Penfil


----------



## Brother John (Oct 8, 2008)

Rank, in many ways, is a sign of your instructor's opinion of you.

Other than that, it serves as a guestimate of what level of technical and character cultivation other's SHOULD be able to expect of you.
Unfortunately, this one ................usually..............falls short!

Your Brother
John


----------



## foggymorning162 (Oct 8, 2008)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> If more instructors would climb down off or their rank pedestols, we would all have a better learning experience...


 
If more Black belts in general would climb down off their rank pedestols, we would have a better learning experience...


----------



## MBuzzy (Oct 8, 2008)

I really feel that equal respect is due to every practitioner.  A different kind of respect, but equal respect.  I would treat the Kwan Jang Nim with the same attitude and respect that I would offer to a brand new white belt...or to a green belt...or red belt.

After all, without students, there are no teachers, and without teachers, there is no one left.  I feel that we owe just as much to students for showing us the respect of simply walking in the door as they owe to us for our experience and teaching.  And at the same time, we owe just as much respect and HUMILITY to those above us for what they have to offer us and for the sacrifice and service of teaching and passing along their knowledge.

I have been spoken down to and disrespected by many different ranks....but to me, it is much worse when a senior disrespects a junior than when a junior disrespects a senior.  In many cases, the junior is showing disrespect out of ignorance....the senior showing disrespect to a junior is just ego.

I have been disappointed far too often over the subject of rank.  I am thankful that there are still so many great teachers, such as Master Penfil, Sensei Carbone, the excellent teachers in the Federation and all other organizations.  Without the good ones who haven't forgotten where they came from, I believe that the Martial Arts would die off quickly.


----------



## Kacey (Oct 8, 2008)

Rank is a tricky thing, and so is respecting rank.  We (in the US, at least) live in a very informal society, and it can be hard to carry the formal respect used in the dojang into the rest of the world... _but_ does someone lose their knowledge when they leave the dojang and take of their dobok?  Is their knowledge and experience contained within that piece of colored cotton around their waists?  I respect the knowledge and experience - _not_ the piece of cotton - and that knowledge and experience is with the person wherever they go.

Likewise, I use the same formal respect for everyone else - regardless of their rank relative to mine - because we are all students together.  Age is irrelevant as well.  Does a student deserve less respect because s/he is a teen or a child?  I can't see why.

I use formal respect in most situations, actually.  As a teacher, I use it in my classroom - and I find I have fewer discipline problems than many of my peers, who try to be overly familiar with the students.  Not that I do not get to know my students - far from it! - but that I treat them with the respect I want them to direct toward me, and I find that, in most cases, I get it back, both in how they address me, and in their behavior.  After all, there is no better way to teach proper behavior than to demonstrate it on a consistent basis.

Here's the reverse side:  some years ago I had a TKD student who was 8 years old, in the 3rd grade.  One day, his mother came to me with a request that I write out the guidelines for how he was supposed to address me and other students in the class, to take to his 3rd grade teacher... it seems his teacher had asked him a question, and his answer was "Yes, ma'am" - just the way he did in class - and she sent him to the office for being a smart mouthed kid, because, at 23, she felt that the "ma'am" was rude, and should have been "miss".  I wrote the teacher a note; I heard later that the principal made her apologize (totally unrelated to my note) and pointed out that there were much worse things than being addressed politely by an honorific that you think is for "older" people!


----------



## Makalakumu (Oct 8, 2008)

Kacey said:


> it seems his teacher had asked him a question, and his answer was "Yes, ma'am" - just the way he did in class - and she sent him to the office for being a smart mouthed kid, because, at 23, she felt that the "ma'am" was rude, and should have been "miss". I wrote the teacher a note; I heard later that the principal made her apologize (totally unrelated to my note) *and pointed out that there were much worse things than being addressed politely by an honorific that you think is for "older" people*!


 
ROFL!  This woman would have had a heart attack if she had taught at some of the places that I have taught!

The thing that people NEED to remember is that rank is a useful teaching tool.  Nothing else.  Rank says nothing about your character or about your overall quality as a human being.  When people start to think that, then the problems start.


----------



## thesandman (Oct 9, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> Rank says nothing about your character



Sadly this may be often true, but only in instances when people haven't earned the rank or the school isn't adequately teaching lessons and holding students to high personal standards.

What often gets lost in this discussion is that rank in most martial arts shouldn't be purely about physical ability or knowledge of techniques.  Each rank also carries with it a level of personal development in humility, honor and rational thought.

We've all met jerk black belts.  It's my opinion that black belt and jerk should be mutually exclusive.

Our arts aren't just about training the body, they're also about training the heart and mind. Our ranks systems should be reflecting those goals equally.

As to the respect issue, there are several ways to look at it.  There is indeed a base level of respect with which we should all treat each other, regardless of rank or even if someone trains or not.  We're all human.  

However, it is the ego the insists that we all be treated with the same respect.  Being differential to a higher ranked student is part of the discipline.  It's also human nature to hold higher levels of respect for those who have in some way impressed us.  Who have shown extraordinary kindness, ability or knowledge.  This is not wrong, but simply human nature.

My instructor, Soke Michael Kinney, often expresses discomfort when we use his title.   This is his humility.  We use it anyway, not to intentionally make him uncomfortable or to countermand his wishes, but rather because Soke IS his title.  He can no more be less than he is than he could be a bird.  We feel that to refer to him as less is to disrespect who he is and what he has accomplished.  His feelings on the matter be damned.


----------



## MBuzzy (Oct 9, 2008)

thesandman said:


> Sadly this may be often true, but only in instances when people haven't earned the rank or the school isn't adequately teaching lessons and holding students to high personal standards.



I have to agree with maunakumu here....Something like rank is the BEST test of character.  Because it shows how you behave with power.  Power is historically the best judge of character.  Once you're given power over others, how you treat them shows what you are really like....once you no longer have to treat them well.



thesandman said:


> What often gets lost in this discussion is that rank in most martial arts shouldn't be purely about physical ability or knowledge of techniques.  Each rank also carries with it a level of personal development in humility, honor and rational thought.
> 
> We've all met jerk black belts.  It's my opinion that black belt and jerk should be mutually exclusive.



I fully agree that rank is not just physical or about techniques and there should definitely be just as much about those intangibles, such as honor and humility.  

But jerk and Black Belt _are not_ and _should not_ be mutually exclusive.  Granted, any organization is a cross section of the rest of the community, so there will always be jerks...anywhere.  There are just as many jerks in the military as there are outside, or any other company or organization.  But (and here's where my military experience comes in) with higher rank comes higher responsibility.  You are more visible, people look to you to see how to act, to see what is right and wrong.  Once you reach Cho Dan, you no longer have the LUXURY of being a jerk.  At that point, you should be at your best at all times.  "They are always watching."  This is just as true in the martial arts as in the military.  The younger belts (particularly kids in this case) are always watching you.  Even when you're not in class, they see you kick a homeless guy in the street....they're going to think its ok.  You're a teacher and a role model.  Reaching the Dan level isn't just about technique, correct, but it sets you on a different level.  

Now....by no means am I saying that Dans are the only ones with this responsibility, because younger belts are watching all of the higher belts.  But the Dans are usually the ones who are teaching and are used as a visible show of a role model or "how you should behave."  It is far worse for a black belt to be talking, wandering around, misbehaving than it is a lower belt.



thesandman said:


> As to the respect issue, there are several ways to look at it.  There is indeed a base level of respect with which we should all treat each other, regardless of rank or even if someone trains or not.  We're all human.
> 
> However, it is the ego the insists that we all be treated with the same respect.  Being differential to a higher ranked student is part of the discipline.  It's also human nature to hold higher levels of respect for those who have in some way impressed us.  Who have shown extraordinary kindness, ability or knowledge.  This is not wrong, but simply human nature.



It is necessary to show respect differently to a higher ranking student or instructor, but not any more or less.  Especially as a result of their rank.  Would you rather be respected for your rank or for your actions?  Personally, my subordinates are required to pay me a certain level of respect because of my rank, but I would much rather they respect me as a person, a leader, and a teacher, than just "another Captain" or Dan or whatever.  If you want someone to listen to you, they need to respect you for more than just your rank.  To do this, you have to pay them equal respect as they give you.  

Of course, no one is ever going to be on a completely level playing field, everyone has differing opinions of others and respect is generally on a sliding scale.  The point I'm making is that 1) higher ranks are not automatically due more respect and should be treated better and 2) a lower rank should be treated with the same decency as a higher rank.


----------



## thesandman (Oct 9, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> But jerk and Black Belt _are not_ and _should not_ be mutually exclusive...Once you reach Cho Dan, you no longer have the LUXURY of being a jerk.



It seems like we fundamentally agree though setting the line and different places.  Am I wrong?



> It is necessary to show respect differently to a higher ranking student or instructor, but not any more or less.



Isn't the difference here by nature an issue of degree?  I respect all people  equally.  We're all human.  However I will respect a white belt LESS as a MARTIAL ARTIST than I will a Black Belt.  The higher ranking student has earned that higher level of respect and holds a greater level of knowledge.  That does not mean that I will treat the white belt badly or dismiss his ideas, but rather that I would give the black belts ideas more weight.  Lets not confuse respecting someone less with treating them worse.  Less respect does not equal disrespect.

Look at it this way, if you're sick and a medical student says you have the flu, but a doctor with 10 years of experience tells you that you need surgery, who's opinion will you respect more?



> Would you rather be respected for your rank or for your actions?



Can't I have both?  I earned my rank and deserve the respect that goes along with it.  This is not ego, but rather an acknowledgment of the facts.  The rank gives foundation, the actions provide proof.  



> If you want someone to listen to you, they need to respect you for more than just your rank.  To do this, you have to pay them equal respect as they give you.



I agree that they need to respect more than just your rank, however the respect is not equal.  The teacher-student relationship is not one of equals.  I respect all of my students as people, and treat them with courtesy.  I do not respect them as martial artists on an equal basis, they are not equal. 



> The point I'm making is that 1) higher ranks are not automatically due more respect and should be treated better and 2) a lower rank should be treated with the same decency as a higher rank.



I agree with these points though I mark the difference between being treated with decency and having respect.


----------



## kidswarrior (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm not a Korean arts practitioner (tho did start with hapkido way back when), but if I may barge in anyway? 

Short version to me, regardless of age, rank, trophy case: _Don't let your ego write a check your butt can't cash._ Oh, and there's always someone better on any given day, who won't take your check. All it requires is for him to be *on*, and me to be having an off day, and even someone I could normally defend against is suddenly better than me. So my policy: just keep a sense of humility because we're all human, and so vulnerable sometimes.

Oh, and I like the military parallel. I saw everything under the sun during my time. Will never forget Tue, the 5' 6", 300 pound Samoan lifer who sorta mentored me through 'A' school. He told me of a time when a junior officer--who was younger and way less experienced (Tue was an E-6)--with whom Tue disagreed over how to go about something significant.

The officer: I could have you court martialled.

Tue: I could kill you.

Officer: WHAT DID YOU SAY?

Tue: You heard me.


----------



## MBuzzy (Oct 9, 2008)

thesandman said:


> It seems like we fundamentally agree though setting the line and different places.  Am I wrong?



It sounds like we agree on all points, my fault....I think that I am not making the distinction properly between respect as a person and respect for what you do.  Everyone deserves equal respect as a person, but as martial artists, everyone will be at different points in their training.  I respect some martial artists much more than others, but I will treat them with the same degree of courtesy.


----------



## newy085 (Oct 9, 2008)

I do not train in Tang Soo Do, but I do train in karate which from the sound of it has a similar emphasis on rank and structure. I think a rank structure is an important part of a traditional art, but I don't think that it is important to the development of the martial side of the art. Having the rank structure in place teaches students humility, respect and tact, to name a few.

Like I said none of the qualities you gain from a rank structure will affect the way you fight, but it can teach the students good skills they can use outside the art. But that said, many people do not take MA to better their character, so this often rubs them the wrong way.


----------



## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

You are right, Craig.  It is a personal thing but my school's protocol greatly influences how I perceive proper protocol.

We are taught that juniors should bow to the seniors (colored belt bows to black belt first, white bows to yellow first and so on), then the seniors will bow back. I find myself bowing first to colored belts below my rank quite often.  I do this to try and teach them to bow.  I know it's awkward to bow at first and sometimes even feels silly (when you are new) to do 10 bows to 10 different individuals warming up before they enter the training area. Good warmup for the back muscles   I don't mind bowing first.  I am showing respect.

We had a group of three rowdy male teenagers who were not bowing to the females.  Several of us were irritated because we felt it was disrespectful.  It was obvious they were avoiding us.  They would purposely avoid making eye contact so they wouldn't have to bow.  They even rudely knocked into us sometimes when they went by.  It is part of their culture to "diss" women.  We ladies started making it a point to catch their attention and bow.  They finally got the point...I think.  I guess you could say we were humiliated by the lack of respect.

We always address black belts as Mr., Mrs., Ms.(or Master if they are 4th Dan and above) and so on.  Most of the instructors call me Mrs. but that may be because I'm older than they are.  Occasionally, they call me by my first name and that's fine with me.  I have noted the instructors usually address children and young adults by their first name.  Exceptions are the black belt instructors will call a red belt who is assisting with the children by Ms., Mr. to set an example for the children to follow.

The dojang rumor is that when one reaches red belt, they are to be addressed as Mr., Mrs., Ms.  I haven't seen that in writing but it makes sense because it is mandatory that we assist in teaching children's classes at that level.

Outside of the school, we are to bow to one another.  So, If I see a fellow student or instructor at Wal-Mart, I am to bow.

Now, if I could just stop bowing when I enter Wal-Mart...


----------



## kidswarrior (Oct 10, 2008)

Lynne said:


> They even rudely knocked into us sometimes when they went by. It is part of their culture to "diss" women.


Why are they allowed to even continue training there? Misogyny goes far beyond just dojo etiquette, and I personally would not continue to train a dangerous art to someone with such an attitude. That's a recipe for tragedy sooner or later, and I'd hope the senior instructor would take action.


But I fear this has taken us off topic.


----------



## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

On rank (the original question) - our school does put quite a bit of emphasis on respect of black belts.  I respect anyone who does martial arts, however, it takes a lot of hard work to make black belt.  You have to have such focus and determination.  Life may get in the way and it may take you some extra years but persevering says something about your character.  I have a great deal of respect for anyone who has made it that far.

On the otherhand, Cho Dans are reminded that they are just beginning.  They even have to say it aloud.

I try to treat everyone equally.  I have a great deal of respect for white belts.  It takes a lot of courage to begin.  And what about that first test?


----------



## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Why are they allowed to even continue training there? Misogyny goes far beyond just dojo etiquette, and I personally would not continue to train a dangerous art to someone with such an attitude. That's a recipe for tragedy sooner or later, and I'd hope the senior instructor would take action.
> 
> 
> But I fear this has taken us off topic.


 
I wouldn't say the kids (they are now 8th graders I guess) are 100% part of the rap culture, but the lack of etiquette proves some negative cultural characteristics.  And who knows which way they might go?

Now, if our Sa Ba Num had seen these kids literally running by us and bumping us (this happened three times - in fact, I was practicing wrist grips with someone and one of them walked between us while I had hold of my partners wrist!), he would have said something to them and they'd probably would have had to apologize to us and then do pushups or squat thrusts.  The kids did get disciplined with some type of punishment when they needed it.  I can say the kids were becoming more disciplined and more polite as time went on.  I imagine they needed a male authority figure as well, not that the Sa Ba Num is supposed to be a father.  However, I think our Sa Ba Num had a positive and powerful effect on those kids.  Unfortunately, all three of them dropped out over the summer.

Since, we are speaking of rank, I will try to keep it on topic.  I didn't have the greatest respect for those kids because of their attitude - being humiliated doesn't engender respect.  However, I made it a point to bow to them and show them respect.  They began bowing back after awhile - I had to actually speak to them to get their attention but it worked.  They didn't always bow like they were supposed to though.


----------



## MBuzzy (Oct 10, 2008)

So Lynne, it sounds like you have a really good atmosphere going on....How do you feel that the Black Belts and seniors treat the juniors?


----------



## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> So Lynne, it sounds like you have a really good atmosphere going on....How do you feel that the Black Belts and seniors treat the juniors?


 The black belts are exemplary in their respect for others.  They often give much-needed advice. They set a very good example.  I am not afraid to approach black belts or my seniors and ask a question if I need to do so.  I would say there is quite a bit of camaraderie in our school.  Most everyone is very helpful.

It appears the black belts and seniors want to see the juniors succeed.

Even the black belt kids are respectful and helpful.


----------



## MBuzzy (Oct 10, 2008)

Lynne said:


> The black belts are exemplary in their respect for others.  They often give much-needed advice. They set a very good example.  I am not afraid to approach black belts or my seniors and ask a question if I need to do so.  I would say there is quite a bit of camaraderie in our school.  Most everyone is very helpful.
> 
> It appears the black belts and seniors want to see the juniors succeed.
> 
> Even the black belt kids are respectful and helpful.



That is awesome, you are very lucky.  I wish every school was like that.


----------



## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> That is awesome, you are very lucky. I wish every school was like that.


 Master R tries to make the atmosphere family-like.  He says there is no excuse for a student not knowing their material as there is always someone you can ask.  That means it is our duty to help juniors.

Quite often, I have white belts through orange belts asking me for help with wrist grips, hand combinations, or Korean terminology (lots of questions there).  I'm always happy to help them.  The only thing we won't assist anyone with is material above their belt level.  And, of course, we green belts help one another.  If there was a bunch of sniping and arrogance, I would just leave.  I would say it's better than I could have hoped for.  People are people but they seem to have risen above jealousy and self-centeredness at my school.

(A Judo school I attended was horrible - the men were helpful, just great, but the women were were nasty and catty as heck because they resented other women.)


----------

