# Cerio Pinions/Pinans



## BallistikMike (Sep 16, 2005)

Hello everyone. I have a question about the Pinions/Pinans that were developed by Nick Cerio and then used by Fred Villari in his Shoalin Kempo.

If you do a search here in the forums you come to find out that Nick Cerio used Taikaiyo <sp?> 1 as pinion one, combination of T2 & T3 as pinion two and then learned pinan/heian 3, 4, & 5 from Mas Oyamas book and used them as pinion 3, 4 & 5 in his system.

My question is this. I have looked in the Mas Oyama book and they only have hein 4/5 in there nothing about heian 3. They have Taikyo 1 & 3, Heian 4 & 5 and saifa kata in the book. Where did Pinion 3 come from if this indeed the case?

Anyone know?


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## dsp921 (Sep 16, 2005)

The origin of Professor Cerio's katas are explained here:
http://www.studiosunis.com/en/sec_art/art_ori.asp


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## BallistikMike (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks for the link. I think it is great.

Heian/Pinan 4 & 5 are the only Heian/Pinan Shown in the Mas Oyama book however. Throughout this website it is stated that 3 - 4 & 5 were learned from Mas Oyamas book and brought into the Karazenpo System by Nick Cerio as Pinion 3 - 4 & 5.

I just want to understand how he came up with Pinion 3 from the book by Mas Oyama when it isnt even in the book.

Taikyoku One - Pinion One in the original Nick Cerio System and Later SKK.

Taikyoku #2 & #3 are combined along with Kung Line drills Nick Cerio learned in Hawaii from Prof. Chow. to make Pinion Two

Pinion Three is supposed to have been learned from Mas Oyamas book as Heian 3/ Pinan 3. The books I have seen and the two I have do not have hein 3 in them at all.

That is my question. Is the claim of learning Pinan 3 - 4 & 5 from Mas Oyamas book true or false since I can not find pinan/heina 3 in any of them various prints). Only heian 4 & 5 which became Pinion 4 - 5.

I understand where he went with renaming and revising the kata he learned as well as creating his own.

I just want to dig a little deeper is all. I have been researching the SKK / Cerio / Karazenpo line from Kajukenbo for nearly a year now. I found a glitch and just want to clarify it.

Thankyou.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 17, 2005)

i have an Oyama book which has pinan 2,3,4,5 in it........its called mastering karate.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 17, 2005)

So, another wannabee "professor" soke, whatever, messing with the Pinan and putting in his own stuff. Ho-hum. I guess they'll never go away...


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 17, 2005)

gene, have you ever heard of any of these guys before?
or is this all news to you?


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## The Kai (Sep 17, 2005)

Yes Prof Cerio was probably the first person ever to change how a Kata was done.  Now they would'nt ever dream of doing that in okinwa


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 17, 2005)

ever......or practice another art and call it something different


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## BallistikMike (Sep 17, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i have an Oyama book which has pinan 2,3,4,5 in it........its called mastering karate.


I have this book "Mastering Karate" and it doesnt have Pinan/Heian 2 or 3 in it. It has only 4 and 5.

If you are thinking that the Taikyoku Kata are pinans that would be wrong. They show 1 and 3 in the "Mastering Karate" text. Also the last Kata is saiha or saifa I cant remember the spelling.

There are ony Two pinans/heians shown in the master text 4 and 5. Thats how they label them in Mas Oyamas text anyway.

Its why I want to clarify the names and numbering. I am not challenging anything.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 17, 2005)

in my book which was printed in 1973, the pinan nidan kata starts on page 104 and ends on 107
sandan pages 108 to 111
yondan 112- 115
godan from 120-123

if someone has been telling you that pinan 2 and 3 in that book are taikyoku, then i have been practicing the wrong kata for the last 10 years.


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## Harley Quinn (Sep 17, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> So, another wannabee "professor" soke, whatever, messing with the Pinan and putting in his own stuff. Ho-hum. I guess they'll never go away...


Hi Gene,

I am not so sure that is the correct way of putting it, but hey no problem.
The thing is none of this stuff is that complicated, heck while I am doing some of the katas I change and at one point might go and do a way to the end of the another Kata. So what?
It only counts when you are being graded in or on that one kata.
You know to know one kata is to know lots of other parts of other kata.
I eat beef well done, so should you or everyone else eat like I do? 
When we go to dinner? No, but if the menu is only one thing that is what you eat.

All Escrima/Kata is like chicken, only different flavor. GM Estalilla FMA Kabaron

I think that pretty well sums it up, if in rome do as the romans do. But if I am in my garage I do what I want to do. Does that make me a wannabe? Not at all. But I am a good practioner, I read a lot and exercise in many different arts. I could easily become a professor in my own art form. But for what? NOT.

But your failure to show respect for some of the greats is in it's self showing your, like I said, failure not theirs. IMHO xxoo

Harley


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## Gene Williams (Sep 18, 2005)

I have not read anything here that indicates "greatness." Sounds like you are having a lot of fun in your garage.


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## MJS (Sep 18, 2005)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 18, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I have not read anything here that indicates "greatness." Sounds like you are having a lot of fun in your garage.


and what makes you so great as to be able to recognize it?
this is a serious question mods.......so if you want to split the thread please do so.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 18, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> and what makes you so great as to be able to recognize it?
> this is a serious question mods.......so if you want to split the thread please do so.


I'm not the one claiming greatness for myself or anyone else, though I have trained under some greats and with some greats and know some others I would call great. I went to your site and was disappointed to see that you reference the good ole World Head of Family Sokeship Council, a standing joke among most traditional martial artists. I grew up in karate with some of the folks in the pictures like Dirk Mosig, Bob Bowles and a bunch of Trias' boys. They were the group that started karate 4 or 5 years before I did. Trias' group was a real mixed bag, some good and some just ego freaks. Anyway, I know great when I see it and I know BS when I hear it.


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## kenmpoka (Sep 18, 2005)

Originally the Kajukenbo forms were named "Pinion" referring to the name "Pinan". IMHO this was done erronueously and created confusion. The Kajukenbo forms were later renamed "Palama sets" by Sijo Emperado.

Professor Cerio adopted his "Pinan" series from the Kyokushin enterpretation which was originally based on Mr. Funakoshi's teachings. Originally the Pinan1 (Heian2) was done as in the Japanese and Okinawan traditions. Later on this kata was changed to the present form following the Taikyoku's enbusen. Again this has caused confusion among various factions and Ihmo it should not have been done this way.

Using an exiting kata name for a newer kata with a different enbusen creates problems. Shaolin Kempo's and Cerio kenpo's versions of Pinan 1 and 2  should really be referred to as "Basic forms" (kihon no kata) since they were based on Taikyoku series. Pinan (3,4,5) of these disciplines follow the original enbusen and techniques with minor differences. In my school we follow this set up, and for this reason my students can compete in the traditional arenas as well.

I also reviewed the Studio Uni's kata lineage explanation and found a few discrepancies. The Cerio's "Circle of the Tiger" was based on Karazenpo's "Kata 1". The techiques and the enbusen were rearranged by Mr. Cerio. The "Statue of the Crane was based on the Korean version (Tang Soo Do) of the OKinawan kata "Rohai" devised by Mr. Pesare and Mr. Cerio.


Salute.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 18, 2005)

It would be better if non-traditional martial artists, like Cerio, et al, who want to start their own style would just keep it to making up their own kata. Since they pretty much reject tradition in favor of ego, they should just leave traditional kata alone. They will never be taken seriously by traditionalists, so it is pretty stupid to try to claim some tie with tradition by screwing with traditional kata. So, guys, stay in the garage and have fun...and don't trip over the lawn mower while doing Dragon Form 1.


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## kenmpoka (Sep 18, 2005)

Mr. Williams,

Within the factions of the so called traditionalists, many variations of the same kata exist. Even the bunkai varies from teacher to teacher.....Your attacks/comments are not well founded with someone who's studied traditional arts for a very long time.

Salute.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 18, 2005)

I was not talking about variations in traditional kata from ryu to ryu. All the various traditional versions are recognizably the same kata and developed through an internal logic based upon the lineage of the ryu and the kata. All traditional ryu recognize the different versions, and they are remarkably consistent from ryu to ryu. Variations in bunkai, while less consistent, are still recognizably based upon the internal logic of the kata and, in many instances, standard bunkai exist across ryu. Now, that is really different from some self-styled "master" playing with the traditional kata. Whatever Mr. Cerio is doing, it isn't traditional martial arts. But, just as long as you are having fun...watch out for the weed-eater, too, and don't step on the cat.


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## marlon (Sep 18, 2005)

Please note Mr.Cerio is dead and so is not "do-ing" anything at this time.  Mr.Cerio was evolving his kenpo and was bringing it more into line with traditional Okinawan systems.  Inform yourself better before speaking as though you have passed a judgement.  The 'pinans" that GM Cerio brought to his art he learned from Kyokushin...a fairly traditional art...so he was not making things up nor was he pullings things out of the air without foundation.  Thank you for your time


Respectfully,
marlon


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 19, 2005)

so let me get this straight......its ok for an okinawan to learn karate from a couple of different guys, put his own spin on it, call it something different......and then someone else decides, "hey lets pretend to honour motobu while were at it"......because it all happened 75 years ago.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I'm not the one claiming greatness for myself or anyone else, though I have trained under some greats and with some greats and know some others I would call great. I went to your site and was disappointed to see that you reference the good ole World Head of Family Sokeship Council, a standing joke among most traditional martial artists. I grew up in karate with some of the folks in the pictures like Dirk Mosig, Bob Bowles and a bunch of Trias' boys. They were the group that started karate 4 or 5 years before I did. Trias' group was a real mixed bag, some good and some just ego freaks. Anyway, I know great when I see it and I know BS when I hear it.


so you've been in karate for 35 years......that would make it 1970.
trias and the boys started karate 5 years before you in 65...i never knew it was such a recent development.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

My introduction to karate was in 1967, but I have only been training continuously since '70. I think Trias started training long before that, but many of his people I knew back then began in the '60's. There was a lot of martial arts in Hawaii even earlier (Okizaki, Wally Jay, etc.). Then, there was the usual crowd of Camp Hanson one year wonders who came home as "masters."


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## Ray (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> It would be better if non-traditional martial artists [...]who want to start their own style would just keep it to making up their own kata.


If something is "traditional" it has been "passed down."  At some point in time, someone started the tradition and others learned (or emulated) it.  Someone "made up" the "traditional kata" too.


			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Since they pretty much reject tradition in favor of ego, they should just leave traditional kata alone.


Were the original creators of kata only working to satisfy their egos too?  If your art is Japanese or Okinowan, then didn't the arts originate from China -- especially in the form of C'huan Fa (or Kempo in Japanese)?


			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> So, guys, stay in the garage and have fun...and don't trip over the lawn mower while doing Dragon Form 1.


I may be mis-interpreting this comment, but are you saying quality instruction/practice/learning comes only from being in a commerical dojo?


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## Harley Quinn (Sep 19, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> so you've been in karate for 35 years......that would make it 1970.
> trias and the boys started karate 5 years before you in 65...i never knew it was such a recent development.


Just for your information.

Trias, if this is Robert Trias? He started way before that. He was in WWll and knew Mitose. He was in Arizona teaching Shuri, way before most of the others were thinking about it. Like the 50's.

Maybe we should get this straight. So the water is not so muddied.

Harley


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Hi Folks!
I was reading this thread and I wanted to clarify a few points...
Pinan [or as many in the new england kenpo circles still incorrectly called it "pinian"] was used by the Prof. Cerio to describe thew non kenpo/kajukenbo/karazenpo goshinjutsu forms that he [cerio] had incorporated into his art [Nick Cerio's Kenpo (NCK)]. The first 2 pinans are indeed the "taikyoku" basic "H" or "I" pattern kata associated many okinawan/japanese/korean styles in regards to footwork. However, many of the hand movements were changed due to Prof. Cerio working with Prof. William Chow of Hawaii in the late 1960's. If your lineage does "back two knuckles" and "front two knukles into "rolling cross hammerfists" to the groin and"lead upward block,rear upward block,lead spearhand to groin,rear spear hand to throat" as well as  "corkscrew punches" in 2 pinan, those were basics taught by Prof. Chow to Nick Cerio. Kenpo elements from the hawaii kenpo were also incorporated into the next 3 pinans.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

dsp921 said:
			
		

> The origin of Professor Cerio's katas are explained here:
> http://www.studiosunis.com/en/sec_art/art_ori.asp


Hi Folks!
Thanks for the link,Lance, But I wouldn't quote it as gospel. They have "lin wan kune"[southern shaolin(Sil Lum) for "continuous returning fist"] listed as a shotokan form! I think that is more of a web placement error because of the mention of Sifu Fong chin, who went over the form with prof cerio after he had learned the basic format from Leo Fong's text "Sil lum kung fu". But, as I mentioned before, the format's information is not accurate.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Thanks for the link. I think it is great.
> 
> Heian/Pinan 4 & 5 are the only Heian/Pinan Shown in the Mas Oyama book however. Throughout this website it is stated that 3 - 4 & 5 were learned from Mas Oyamas book and brought into the Karazenpo System by Nick Cerio as Pinion 3 - 4 & 5.
> 
> ...



Hi Folks!
I think we shoulds clarify that Prof. Cerio did not simply learn from books. Rather, he trained with numerous instructors in different arts to obtain his knowledge, George Pesare,Tadashi Yamashita,Fumio Demura,William Chun Sr.,Prof William Chow,Ted Olsen, James Benko,Ed Parker,Gin Fong Chin,are among some of the men who prof. cerio worked with over the several decades of his career,  so to solely list these texts as the only source of the creation and addition of the katas would be erroneous. I have first editions of all on mas oyama's texts and will look to see and confirm the text's content.
Also, your statent about prof. Cerio bringing the pinans to the karazenpo goshinjutsu system are also incorrect, at that time,Prof. Cerio had already broken away from George Pesare and added those versions of the pinan kata to his [cerio's] system.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## dsp921 (Sep 19, 2005)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> Thanks for the link,Lance, But I wouldn't quote it as gospel.


I just did a search on "Cerio" and "Pinan" and came up with that link. I was just trying to help, I cannot speak for the accuracy of the link.
As usual, you have some good information in your replies, thank you.
Who's Lance?


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> So, another wannabee "professor" soke, whatever, messing with the Pinan and putting in his own stuff. Ho-hum. I guess they'll never go away...


Hi Folks,
Williams Sensei, didn't Kosei Kokuba,founer of Motobu ha Shito ryu,Train with Mabuni as well as motobu,not to mention other kobudo experts of the day.Also,His son, Shogo Kuniba, his son, who i'm presuming you trained with directly, also trained with many different sensei as well as his father. Both men created their own kata as well. Your statements sound like "the pot calling the kettle black"
It never ceases to amaze me when "traditionalists" fault occidentalds for doing exactly what their oriental instructors did!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I have not read anything here that indicates "greatness." Sounds like you are having a lot of fun in your garage.


Hi folks!
Williams Sensei,
It's no one's "job" to prove "greatness" to you, or anyone else for that matter. Again, many of the masters your lineage came from taught in homes,in living and dining rooms,gardens and patios, out in the feilds and if they had a horse/mule and cart, they sometimes taught in barns, the forerunner to garages! Please, go back and research your history and look at it from a more "humanistic" view and you will find your sensei did the same as modern martial artists today.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

dsp921 said:
			
		

> I just did a search on "Cerio" and "Pinan" and came up with that link. I was just trying to help, I cannot speak for the accuracy of the link.
> As usual, you have some good information in your replies, thank you.
> Who's Lance?


Hi Folks!
Sorry,David! Another mass. based Kenpoist who is on here has a similar sn and I got the two confused.
I will be contacting Clarmont Poulin and mention about the errors on the website.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I'm not the one claiming greatness for myself or anyone else, though I have trained under some greats and with some greats and know some others I would call great. I went to your site and was disappointed to see that you reference the good ole World Head of Family Sokeship Council, a standing joke among most traditional martial artists. I grew up in karate with some of the folks in the pictures like Dirk Mosig, Bob Bowles and a bunch of Trias' boys. They were the group that started karate 4 or 5 years before I did. Trias' group was a real mixed bag, some good and some just ego freaks. Anyway, I know great when I see it and I know BS when I hear it.


Hi Folks!
Dear Williams Sensei,
Who's website did you see the WHOFSC mention at? I won't go into my opinions regarding that particular group. As far as Bob Bowles,Dirk Mosig and others of Robert Trias' USKA lineage, He also "changed" and made up kata as well in his Goju-Shorei Ryu/Shuri Ryu style. He orginally was a "hsing I" Kung Fu practitioner, not a karateka. As far as the "bs" you refer to, be specific.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> It would be better if non-traditional martial artists, like Cerio, et al, who want to start their own style would just keep it to making up their own kata. Since they pretty much reject tradition in favor of ego, they should just leave traditional kata alone. They will never be taken seriously by traditionalists, so it is pretty stupid to try to claim some tie with tradition by screwing with traditional kata. So, guys, stay in the garage and have fun...and don't trip over the lawn mower while doing Dragon Form 1.


Hi Folks!
Dear Williams Sensei,
I realise that you never knew Nick Cerio and have little to no idea of the legacy associated with the man and his art. But, when your own tradition did the exact same things as you are mentioning in this post, I really have to wonder if you're really thinking through what you're saying here on this post. I've personally seen kuniba's son compete in tournaments and change or create new kata as well as change traditional kata, as his father did before him. Prof. cerio had a long history of training with traditionalist sensei and as I always say "Nick Cerio's Kenpo got more Japanese every day." because of his incorporation of traditional japanese karate and kubudo kata that were implimented in the last decade and a half of his life. to respond to your comment about what you think is "stupid"...it's sad when you don't know where you come from in your own system and the history of that system/style, You do an art where your pants are designed so that when you squat in the rice patties to harvest,you don't get your pants wet, you train with devices that are agricultural tools in places due to your occupations. so, take off your geta/zori because they are dirty from the roads,oil your kama from cutting stalks near water, put your tonfa in the rice grinder to make millet for dinner and don't trip over said kama when you practice YOUR kata!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> They will never be taken seriously by traditionalists, so it is pretty stupid to try to claim some tie with tradition by screwing with traditional kata.


Hi Folks!
BTW,Both Fumio Demura & Tadashi Yamashita were sensei of Nick Cerio and have the utmost respect for him and his art. Ask them yourself and see what their answers are to your queries.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> Dear Williams Sensei,
> I realise that you never knew Nick Cerio and have little to no idea of the legacy associated with the man and his art. But, when your own tradition did the exact same things as you are mentioning in this post, I really have to wonder if you're really thinking through what you're saying here on this post. I've personally seen kuniba's son compete in tournaments and change or create new kata as well as change traditional kata, as his father did before him. Prof. cerio had a long history of training with traditionalist sensei and as I always say "Nick Cerio's Kenpo got more Japanese every day." because of his incorporation of traditional japanese karate and kubudo kata that were implimented in the last decade and a half of his life. to respond to your comment about what you think is "stupid"...it's sad when you don't know where you come from in your own system and the history of that system/style, You do an art where your pants are designed so that when you squat in the rice patties to harvest,you don't get your pants wet, you train with devices that are agricultural tools in places due to your occupations. so, take off your geta/zori because they are dirty from the roads,oil your kama from cutting stalks near water, put your tonfa in the rice grinder to make millet for dinner and don't trip over said kama when you practice YOUR kata!
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


You did not read my previous post. I am very aware of the history of Okinawan karate, and what you and Cerio and other kempo types are doing isn't even close.


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I was not talking about variations in traditional kata from ryu to ryu. All the various traditional versions are recognizably the same kata and developed through an internal logic based upon the lineage of the ryu and the kata. All traditional ryu recognize the different versions, and they are remarkably consistent from ryu to ryu. Variations in bunkai, while less consistent, are still recognizably based upon the internal logic of the kata and, in many instances, standard bunkai exist across ryu. Now, that is really different from some self-styled "master" playing with the traditional kata. Whatever Mr. Cerio is doing, it isn't traditional martial arts. But, just as long as you are having fun...watch out for the weed-eater, too, and don't step on the cat.


Hi Folks,
Williams Sensei,who are you to dictate what constitutes "traditional"? How long does something have to be before it ecomes traditional? 100 years? then your own art doesn't qualify.Number of generations of black belts? Perpectuation of the art on a national/international level, personal recognition on those levels? Watch out for that kamayari or kuwa. BTW, did kuniba sensei or his famaily own a cat? I'm fairly certain that they did! Ask his son if ever got in his way when he worked out at home!  
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS: It must hard seeing the forest with all those TREES in the way!LOL


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> BTW,Both Fumio Demura & Tadashi Yamashita were sensei of Nick Cerio and have the utmost respect for him and his art. Ask them yourself and see what their answers are to your queries.
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


Demura is extremely polite and courteous. Yamashita is Hollywood all the way, but a fine martial artist.


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Demura is extremely polite and courteous. Yamashita is Hollywood all the way, but a fine martial artist.


Having interviewed both men for my TV show in the past as well as training with Yamashita sensei several times over the past 2 decades, I'm sure they'll honestly answer your questions about Prof. Cerio.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> You did not read my previous post. I am very aware of the history of Okinawan karate, and what you and Cerio and other kempo types are doing isn't even close.


Hi Folks!
Dear Williams Sensei,
I DID read your posts and I don't think you look at the alleged "traditions" from a humanistic view. You see them as "sacrosanct" and heaven forbid any "roundeye" should tamper with them, when people from your own lineage did and do the exact same thing! I've had the honor,pleasure and privilage of training with some of the highest ranked/titled okinawan masters in the martial arts and have always asked them about the aspects of their arts and lives. It amazes me how we westerners many times will seek to "traditionalize" the arts even more than those masters themselves! Nick Cerio became facinated with the more traditonal kata and wanted to "traditionalize" his art and add his personal preference for the japanese arts as he grew older. 
This reminds me of the old joke I say to some people...
"Here's a Quarter, go buy a clue. Here's a dime, call someone who cares, Oops! Sorry, phone calls cost 50 cents now, you can't afford a clue!"
and in regards to your earlier post using the word "stupid",I'm reminded of the phrase Ed Parker said to me...
_"Ignorance is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity."_ 
It's your perogative to feel as you do,and state your opinion as you do, but IMHO, you're simply ignorant to the background of the man and his art.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

I think the heart of any of the traditional ryu is in the kata. Many of the new styles that have sprung up in America have not had the traditional kata as their focus, or even their concern. That is fine, but I think many have later decided that they would like to be able to claim traditional roots and so have begun to try to "traditionalize" their bastard arts. They are making my point for me. I see that you claim black belts in 17 martial arts. I don't suppose you understand how laughable that sounds. Tell me about your 8th dan in kobujustu. What type of kobujutsu? From your website, one would think that your rank claims are based upon the number of "pop" karate stars with whom you have had your picture taken.


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## DavidCC (Sep 19, 2005)

There was a member here Professor Joe Shuras who had a first-hand knowledge of much of this.  You may be able to find some old posts of his on this subject.  Or I am sure you can contact him through the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu organization.

-D


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 19, 2005)

Harley Quinn said:
			
		

> Just for your information.
> 
> Trias, if this is Robert Trias? He started way before that. He was in WWll and knew Mitose. He was in Arizona teaching Shuri, way before most of the others were thinking about it. Like the 50's.
> 
> ...


that was said tongue in cheek


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## kenmpoka (Sep 19, 2005)

Another wasted example of the title "Shihan"......Sigh.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 19, 2005)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> Dear Williams Sensei,
> Who's website did you see the WHOFSC mention at? I won't go into my opinions regarding that particular group. As far as Bob Bowles,Dirk Mosig and others of Robert Trias' USKA lineage, He also "changed" and made up kata as well in his Goju-Shorei Ryu/Shuri Ryu style. He orginally was a "hsing I" Kung Fu practitioner, not a karateka. As far as the "bs" you refer to, be specific.
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


hi joe!

mr williams was referring to the site that i have a link for in my sig line. it is for the martial arts collective society that is headed by bruce juchnik hanshi. it was just another opportunity to for him to bash something else when a question was pointed in his direction.
i have the site link there for anyone that wants to learn more about kosho-ryu, and the other arts that are apart of it. 
the MACS group is about unity in martial arts and the preservation of ALL teachings of the great masters of the martial arts.
it appears that mr williams has decided to distance himself from the great teachers with his excellent comments, desire to help, and his personal humbleness.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

kenmpoka said:
			
		

> Another wasted example of the title "Shihan"......Sigh.


Well, then, back to the "studio" with you.


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I think the heart of any of the traditional ryu is in the kata. Many of the new styles that have sprung up in America have not had the traditional kata as their focus, or even their concern. That is fine, but I think many have later decided that they would like to be able to claim traditional roots and so have begun to try to "traditionalize" their bastard arts. They are making my point for me. I see that you claim black belts in 17 martial arts. I don't suppose you understand how laughable that sounds. Tell me about your 8th dan in kobujustu. What type of kobujutsu? From your website, one would think that your rank claims are based upon the number of "pop" karate stars with whom you have had your picture taken.



Dear Gene, [i'll dispense with sensei title as i've written several posts to you]
I do agree with you [to an extent] that the heart of the traditional {okinawan/Japanese} Ryu is indeed the kata! And chuan fa/Kenpo/Kempo is and has always been primarily a technique art, like jujutsu and it's original context was not focused on forms/kata/hyung/poomse. Kenpo has always been considered a "bastard child" by both Traditional chinese and japanese styles due to it's very nature. Also, like chin na, there are traditionally no forms, but a syllabus of techniques that concentrate on "self defense" [goshin jutsu (Jap.)] that will take from any given source that proves to be effective.
As far as my ranks are concerned, I don't claim to do all those arts at this time nor do I state that "all arts are equal" under the sun and your soke also list multiple BBs in different styles as well. Also, as a iaido practitioner, different ryu have very few waza/kata in their curriculum and promote through time in grade and continuous practice of those given kata. There are also styles that I no longer concentrate on but did indeed train/study/work at to acheive said rank in those given arts. As Prof. Cerio and others like him [including your soke] I trained in other arts ,sometimes training in several different arts at the same time, because I wanted to diversify my training in various martial arts. My list of ranks and lineage are easy enough to look up and research. Most of the people in my gallery have been at one or another my instructors in the various martial arts that i've done throuout my 36 [37 next month] year career in the martial arts.I've had traditional martial artists like yourself come to my dojo and ask me about the arts i do or have done and I've always been glad to compare notes,demonstrate and prove that I "walk the walk as well as talk the talk" in the study of the arts.
Simply stated,Gene, i'm familiar with you through bodoseek and E-Budo and I think you're just here to be a "troll" to this board and create a "flame war" and I'm fairly certain that if you continue this behavior you'll find your account suspended from here as well as it was on Budoseek.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 19, 2005)

mod warning
2nd warning
keep the discussion polite and respectful  
use the ignor button if you don't like what someone is saying

Sheldon Bedell
mt mod


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

No one has ever called me a troll, and I don't think it applies. I just have a pet peeve about the non-traditional arts trying to re-invent themselves as traditional. Plus, I have spent a lot of years training in, teaching, and studying the traditional kata, so I think I am qualified to talk about them. 
You do have a point about the non-kata based arts. In some ways, we are talking about apples and oranges. I really don't think there is much in common between the two approaches. 
I have met a number of EPAK people, and have had a number of them come and train in my dojo. I am sorry to say I have never been impressed, either by their made up Parker kata or by their technique. They have great marketing technique, and they take pretty pictures. Hollywood has been good to them. I realize that this forum is a whole nest of them, so it is probably not the best place for me to discuss traditional karate. But, I've just never seen anything about Parker or American kempo that compares favorably with any well taught traditional karate ryu. Sorry. be good.


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## Kosho-Monk (Sep 19, 2005)

Williams Sensei, 

Would you be willing to video tape yourself performing one of your katas and posting it here (or on the internet somewhere) for all of us to view? Or perhaps a demonstration of your karate style self-defense?

Thank you,

John Evans


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## shesulsa (Sep 19, 2005)

It's good you have much experience at a traditional art and that you have a strong opinion regarding that.  However, your opinion is no excuse to be rude to others, regardless of efficacy or lack thereof.  What are you saying for your art and your rank when you spout thusly?



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> No one has ever called me a troll, and I don't think it applies. I just have a pet peeve about the non-traditional arts trying to re-invent themselves as traditional. Plus, I have spent a lot of years training in, teaching, and studying the traditional kata, so I think I am qualified to talk about them.
> You do have a point about the non-kata based arts. In some ways, we are talking about apples and oranges. I really don't think there is much in common between the two approaches.
> I have met a number of EPAK people, and have had a number of them come and train in my dojo. I am sorry to say I have never been impressed, either by their made up Parker kata or by their technique. They have great marketing technique, and they take pretty pictures. Hollywood has been good to them. I realize that this forum is a whole nest of them, so it is probably not the best place for me to discuss traditional karate. But, I've just never seen anything about Parker or American kempo that compares favorably with any well taught traditional karate ryu. Sorry. be good.


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 19, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> mod warning
> 2nd warning
> keep the discussion polite and respectful
> use the ignor button if you don't like what someone is saying
> ...


Dear Sheldon,
I will comply.
BTW & OFF TOPIC: Does your lineage of sikiran come from George Chatier? [sp]
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## Ray (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> But, I've just never seen anything about Parker or American kempo that compares favorably with any well taught traditional karate ryu.


"If the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail."


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## marlon (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> You did not read my previous post. I am very aware of the history of Okinawan karate, and what you and Cerio and other kempo types are doing isn't even close.


Could you kindly tell us what you see the difference as being?

respectfully,
Marlon


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## John Bishop (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Many of the new styles that have sprung up in America have not had the traditional kata as their focus, or even their concern. That is fine, but I think many have later decided that they would like to be able to claim traditional roots and so have begun to try to "traditionalize" their bastard arts. They are making my point for me.


The "traditional" argument comes up all the time when people are trying to dis American martial arts.  

Here are the founding dates of some popular martial arts:

*Japan*
Shotokan  1921
Shito Ryu  1930
Wado Ryu  1939
Aikido 1942
Shorinji Kempo 1946
Shukokai 1950
Kyokushinkai 1951
Koei-kan  1952
Renbukai 1964

*OKINAWA*
Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu 1947
Isshin Ryu  1954

*Korea*
Chung do kwon   1945
Tang Soo Do  1945
Chang moo kwon  1946
Tae Kwon Do  1955
Hapkido 1950's-60's
Hwarang do  1960
Kuk Sul Won 1966

*America *(and it's territories)
Danzan Ryu  1930's
Kara-ho Kempo  1940's
Kajukenbo 1947
American Kenpo 1950-60's
Karazenpo Go Shin jitsu  1958
Lima Lama  1968 
Shaolin Kempo  1971

Martial arts have always evolved.  And more systems are being developed in these countries all the time.  
So the big question is; how old does a system have to be?  And where does it have to come from before it's considered "traditional"?


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> Could you kindly tell us what you see the difference as being?
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


No relationship to traditional kata and applications, no interest in maintaining lineage with traditional ryu, focus primarily on technique, lots of individual innovation, no traditional dojo atmosphere, lack of traditional training methods, lack of traditional spirit...etc.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> The "traditional" argument comes up all the time when people are trying to dis American martial arts.
> 
> Here are the founding dates of some popular martial arts:
> 
> ...


It has to do with lineage and the concept of the ryu, much of which is transmitted through kata. It doesn't have primarily to do with when a ryu was founded. BTW, Shito ryu is Okinawan karate. It kind of exploded in Japan around Osaka in 1927 when Mabuni moved there and became one of the big 4 in Japan, But, it is Okinawan karate.


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## John Bishop (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> BTW, Shito ryu is Okinawan karate. It kind of exploded in Japan around Osaka in 1927 when Mabuni moved there and became one of the big 4 in Japan, But, it is Okinawan karate.


Well then you can probably call Shotokan "Okinawan" karate because Funakoshi moved to Japan from Okinawa. 
And of course Wado came from Funakoshi's student, so that is Okinawan. 
And Yamaguichi's Goju Kai in Japan came from Miyagi's Goju Ryu, so that's Okinawan. 
And I'm sure many of the Chinese martial scholars will call Okinawan karate "Chinese", since much of the knowledge came from China. 
And of course no one has ever changed any of these traditions to meet the needs of their own times. 
The truth of the matter is "karate", "kung fu", and "kempo/kenpo" are all generic terms that are used to describe thousands of individual styles of self defense. 
It would be hard to defend people like Ed Parker, Adriano Emperado, Nick Cerio, etc, if they had ever said that their systems were traditional Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, etc systems. 
They have not. They created American systems based on techniques, philosophies, and traditions of various Asian and western self defense systems. Just like the Japanese borrowed from the Okinawans. Just like the Okinawans borrowed from the Chinese. Just like the Koreans borrowed from the Japanese and Chinese. Just like the Chinese borrowed from the Indian's.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

You are correct, the guys you named never claimed that they were teaching traditional ryu, and that is fine. What I was being critical of was people in modern arts who try to re-invent themselves as "traditional" or who mess with traditional kata to try and create something "better" even though they have no ties with traditional ryu. 
No, there is a big difference between what Shotokan and Kyok do and the Okinawan ryu. Most traditionalists understand the differences and can spot them immediately. Yamaguchi's Goju is not Okinawan Goju, as Okinawan Goju students will quickly tell you. You have a fairly shallow understanding of the Okinawan ryu, but I'm sure that is by choice. 
You and many others on this forum come from newer styles that have a vested interest in playing up the, "oh, its all the same" philosphy and the,"all arts are eclectic" mentality because that allows you to experiment and play and be "creative." That is all well and good, but those who have spent a lot of years in the traditional ryu and studied them realize that they are not all the same and they are not all eclectic in the manner that you intend. 
All that being said, when it comes to training to fight and for self-defense, I believe it is the person not the art. I'm sure that Ed Parker Kempo, with a good instructor, can teach someone to fight just as well as Shito ryu or Goju ryu karate. If there was a really good EPAK instructor or Kajukenbo instructor right next door to a half-assed Shito ryu or Goju dojo, I'd tell anyone to go tothe the Kajukenbo or Kempo school. But, that really isn't the issue here. I would want to argue that the traditional ryu have more depth and more to offer in terms of hard traditional training, but not everyone wants that. So, we are at an impasse.


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## kenmpoka (Sep 19, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Well then you can probably call Shotokan "Okinawan" karate because Funakoshi moved to Japan from Okinawa.
> And of course Wado came from Funakoshi's student, so that is Okinawan.
> And Yamaguichi's Goju Kai in Japan came from Miyagi's Goju Ryu, so that's Okinawan.
> And I'm sure many of the Chinese martial scholars will call Okinawan karate "Chinese", since much of the knowledge came from China.
> ...


Great post Mr. Bishop. There are lots of morons teaching any or all the aformentioned arts. Instructors need to be judged on their own merits. Mr. Williams, yes, there are arrogant and ignorrant practitioners in all camps including the so called traditional Dojo(s). Just because one follows his/her instructor like a sheep, does not make them any better......


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## BallistikMike (Sep 19, 2005)

Wow. I just asked a simple question of the Heian/Pinan Okinawan katas and how Nicke Cerio brought them into the Karazenpo system.

I did receive my answer also. Thank you very much. I didnt realize (through my own ignorance) that the two Mas Oyama books I have are the "Essentials" of Karate. Not "Mastering" Karate and that is where I was confused. So I found my answer and it has also given me the opporunity to track down another book. Hooray!!

Now onward and upward.

Mr. Williams

Like has been stated before and I will restate. Your ignorance is very profound and I have pity for you lack of vision and thought.

A ryu/style/system, a school/dojo/dojang/studio is never a building, never a picture on the wall that you worship or bow too, never walls or floors, never memberships, never katana on a wall, never a shrine .... it is people.

People make the ryu/system/style. The blood, sweat and tears, the comradeship, the trust, the accountability amongst your peers. That is what makes a ryu/style/system. It is also the people that make the tradition. It is the people who handed down the traditional kata of okinanwa to other people. It is people who formalized it into a ryu, a way of practice. You have such comtempt for Nick Cerio brining in a traditional karate kata when you should be proud that he had the vision to see the benefit of it for his system/style. How he wanted to teach and how he wanted his students to learn.

You completely show your ignorance. I am man enough to admit my ignorance and my mistake for not reading a simple title to a book. I learned from it though like I always do from this forum. I hope that you will learn from this also and if not ... well your loss.

By the way, some of the most intense training throughout history has been amongst fellow peers away from the school in garages, back alleys, farms, woodlands, basements, etc... It was needed for freedom of expression, then again you new that with 30 plus years of training didnt you? Wonder how you missed that and looked down amongst those who seek growth, not copying (Tradition). Unless you never did it.

Close the thread. My answer was reached. Sorry for the attack, but then I am a knuckle dragger and claim nothing more.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

Besides my being ignorant, what was your point?


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## John Bishop (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> What I was being critical of was people in modern arts who try to re-invent themselves as "traditional" or who mess with traditional kata to try and create something "better" even though they have no ties with traditional ryu.


Everybody in modern martial arts has some ties to a so-called "traditional" ryu. "There is nothing new under the sun", only ideas and concepts on how to utilize the techniques.
And I do agree with you, that if you are going to incorporate a form from another system, that it should be taught as is, and not modified. 

But again I ask; where's the line drawn between traditional and non- traditional martial arts? 
The Okinawans borrow from the Chinese, but yet there are traditional Okinawan arts? 
The Japanese borrow from the Okinawans, and thus there are traditional Japanese martial arts?
Asian martial arts has been in America since the 1840's, but when Americans borrow from the Asians, their arts are no longer traditional? 
America as a independant country is 229 years old. That's not old enough to have some traditions? 



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> No, there is a big difference between what Shotokan and Kyok do and the Okinawan ryu. Most traditionalists understand the differences and can spot them immediately. Yamaguchi's Goju is not Okinawan Goju, as Okinawan Goju students will quickly tell you. You have a fairly shallow understanding of the Okinawan ryu, but I'm sure that is by choice.
> You and many others on this forum come from newer styles that have a vested interest in playing up the, "oh, its all the same" philosphy and the,"all arts are eclectic" mentality because that allows you to experiment and play and be "creative." That is all well and good, but those who have spent a lot of years in the traditional ryu and studied them realize that they are not all the same and they are not all eclectic in the manner that you intend.


What kind of condescending statement is that. Other then your writings here, I have no clue who you are, so I wouldn't dare insult your knowledge of Okinawan martial arts. It's just common curtesy. Something I thought the so called "traditional" arts prided themselves on. 
And for the same part you have very little knowledge of my background other then what may be on the internet. So yes, I'll confess that my knowledge of Okinawan arts may be shallower then some, but probably deeper then others. 
And presently, I come from one of the "newer" styles (although Kajukenbo, founded in 1947, proceeds many of the so called traditional Asian arts). 
But I'am also a half Japanese 3rd generation black belt, starting with my grandfather Shozo Miyazaki, my father Jack Bishop, a Kodokan trained black belt, and then myself. Since 1958 (yes 5 years old) I've trained in Judo, freestyle wrestling, Aikido, Shotokan, and Kajukenbo. 
And yes, none of those arts are Okinawan, even though Shotokan was founded by a Okinawan, who was trained by other Okinawans. 

Fact is this could be have been good discussion if you would have shown a little curtesy when trying to prove your points. Or is your curtesy only extended to traditional Okinawan practitioners? If so, we have other forums here for discussions of the Okinawan arts.


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## BallistikMike (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Besides my being ignorant, what was your point?


 
Your kidding right? 30+ years of training in a "Traditional" Martial Art and you cant decipher a single point out of the crap I wrote down? It was written by the simple minded, mind you.

Ok here... I will put it in a form you "can" decipher.  Look at it like a simple Kata. A basic Kata. Lets take Taikyoku Shodan as an example.

The essential basics of the kata - Movement with the zenku-dachi stance. 

The essential basics of the post - Thankyou to those who contibuted to my original question and lead me in the right direction. I found my answer.

The hidden bunkai of the kata - A low bladder strike from someone grabbing your left shoulder. Possible yep. The only one, far from it. Not apparent to new karate-ka. Yep. So hidden. You of course would know this.

The hidden bunkai of the post - Considering you understand sarcasim and can read, which is apparent otherwise I would've never had the pleasure of your posts. It is easily understood by what you have written that you are still in the copying phase of your instruction. You hold the absolute truth of what you are being taught is pure and undeniably correct without question. The infant stage of Mommy and Daddy are always right is a great example of where you are at in your training based off of your written word.

Your hidden bunkai those thruths only you know through countless hours of practice and testing - That which works for you based on experience, your truths and limitations, your understanding of how you make them effective, using the priniciples your intructor gave you to dissect, paste, cut, adapt to any situation, you know individualistic expression based off of the known bunkai that were once hidden.

Your hidden bunkai based off of my post - Well only you will know those truths.

Im sorry if you couldn't see anything remotely visiable as a "point". I hope I helped you ou.

Good luck to you and your training. Be safe.


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## Gene Williams (Sep 19, 2005)

In your fist line, when you reference the "crap" you wrote down, you achieved satori.


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## BallistikMike (Sep 19, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> In your fist line, when you reference the "crap" you wrote down, you achieved satori.


Agree.

So we can move on.


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## The Kai (Sep 20, 2005)

Mr Williams


What is "Hard Traditional training?"
How is that different from the rigerous conditioniong that the KaJuKenBo people use?


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 20, 2005)

its way different.....its hard and traditional


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## Michael Billings (Sep 20, 2005)

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful of others.  Further personal insults may result in a suspension of the offending party. Feel free to use the "Ignore" feature and you will not see the other person's posts.

 Specific rule violations include the first two on our *GENERAL RULES* page.

 -Michael Billings
 -MT Asst. Administrator-


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## Gene Williams (Sep 20, 2005)

If you will notice, Todd, I did not use the term "hard traditional training." I wrote that there was a lack of traditional training methods. Based upon what I have seen of EPAK and Kajukenbo, I believe that is an accurate statement. I did not imply that the other groups do not train hard, only differently. You really should read more carefully. Maybe this discussion should be put to rest. If you are really curious, my dojo is not far from Atlanta, and I train and do training seminars in Orlando, Fla. several times a year. Email me and I'll meet you or give you directions to my dojo. Then you can strut your stuff and see if I am as big a sonofabitch as you think I am.


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## KenpoTess (Sep 20, 2005)

Admin Note

Thread locked Pending Review

~Tess
-MT Assistant Admin


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## KenpoTess (Sep 21, 2005)

Thread reopened


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## Thunderbolt (Sep 21, 2005)

this thread is *reopened* AFTER Gene Williams's account is suspended.?

i didn't know that when you have a strong *disagreement* or *differences*, your account will be suspended or blocked.?

I'm not suprised to see why not many people want to *participate* in a friendly discussion and left this forum EXCEPT those individuals who *share* the same point of views.

If it's a coward act for somebody who insult other behind their keyboard, it is *even more coward *for some people to click *suspend* or *block* button WHEN another person has differences.

After all, if everything is great according to people, there is nothing left for us to discuss any more, is there.?

Perhaps, you should try to *privatize* what people can *discuss* around here so that we don't have to use that "suspend" or "block" button.

When you don't lead, you simply follow like a blind person. Even if you lead, you lead us to the bottom anyway. What's a different.!

Yes, it's a sad day for MA world. Have a nice day.!


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## shesulsa (Sep 21, 2005)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> this thread is *reopened* AFTER Gene Williams's account is suspended.?
> 
> i didn't know that when you have a strong *disagreement* or *differences*, your account will be suspended or blocked.?
> 
> ...


 Now that I'm no longer on staff, I'm just gonna say this right here, right now and take any heat I get for it willingly.

 Don't like the rules?  F'in' leave.

 This is a privately owned board and your ability to be here is a priveledge - not a right.  This board is for friendly discussion, not open insults, slamming, sniping, ratting out, fraudbusting or any other such horse ****.  If you want that, go to a trash-talking site, there's plenty of them.


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 21, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> No one has ever called me a troll, and I don't think it applies. I just have a pet peeve about the non-traditional arts trying to re-invent themselves as traditional. Plus, I have spent a lot of years training in, teaching, and studying the traditional kata, so I think I am qualified to talk about them.
> You do have a point about the non-kata based arts. In some ways, we are talking about apples and oranges. I really don't think there is much in common between the two approaches.
> I have met a number of EPAK people, and have had a number of them come and train in my dojo. I am sorry to say I have never been impressed, either by their made up Parker kata or by their technique. They have great marketing technique, and they take pretty pictures. Hollywood has been good to them. I realize that this forum is a whole nest of them, so it is probably not the best place for me to discuss traditional karate. But, I've just never seen anything about Parker or American kempo that compares favorably with any well taught traditional karate ryu. Sorry. be good.



I would say that all arts are reinvented by each generation. The differences may be subtle but they are always present. Mr. Bishop demonstrated that well.

There are good and bad in Parker lineage Kenpo but for me everything I've been taught compared favorably to the tradititional (relatively) shotokan I was originally taught. To each their own but I feel compelled to support Mr. Parker and his art.  

Jeff


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## The Kai (Sep 21, 2005)

Having started in a traditional art, I never looked back after my first kenpo experience!!


BTW Nobody ever claims a long, traditional past of thier Kenpo katas-most freely admit that they are a product of american ingenuity, open exploration, and street experience.  
I think Mr Bishop and Kenpo Doc have a valid point.  Most traditional kata, while they temselves might not have been changed the bunkai has undergone a re-invention


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## Sapper6 (Sep 21, 2005)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> this thread is *reopened* AFTER Gene Williams's account is suspended.?
> 
> i didn't know that when you have a strong *disagreement* or *differences*, your account will be suspended or blocked.?
> 
> ...



oh yes, a giant conspiracy against those who don't follow the rules.  disagreements on the boards happen quite frequently, but they should never result in open challenges and badgering others because their system isn't _traditional_ in the manner they'd prefer.


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## Ray (Sep 21, 2005)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> Perhaps, you should try to *privatize* [...] around here ...


I'm certain that this is owned by someone (or some ones).  I think they're being pretty nice to let us express our views - - and I think it's only reasonable that they make some rules of what's acceptable and what's not.

The constitution may give us the right of free speech, but that doesn't mean a privately owned outlet has to carry our views.


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## MJS (Sep 21, 2005)

I'm going to say 2 things:

1:  The forum is for friendly discussion, not heated flame wars.  Here is a link to the rules of the forum.  If there are any questions, contact an admin or post them in the support forum.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

2: The discussion is not about who/why anyone was suspended.  Please, lets return to the topic of the thread which is on the discussion of forms.

Mike


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## pete (Sep 21, 2005)

i just dinged ya for the 'don't like it lump it, take it down the road and dump it' 'tude. i may not agree with what a guy says, but will defend his right to say it. dont need to beat this deadhorse, just had to 'sign' my rep comment. pete.


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## shesulsa (Sep 21, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> i just dinged ya for the 'don't like it lump it, take it down the road and dump it' 'tude. i may not agree with what a guy says, but will defend his right to say it. dont need to beat this deadhorse, just had to 'sign' my rep comment. pete.


 Thanks, Pete.  I took a few minutes to reflect on your comment and came to the conclusion that I love America and the fact that we are all entitled to our own opinions no matter what and I work hard at the American spirit of tolerance for other people's preferences, productive life choices, etcetera.

 And were this a public-owned forum (which it is not) and a democratic entity (which it is not) I would defend anyone's right to free speech.  But, see, there is the provision of privatization which means that if you own something and call it yours (which MT's owner does), you get to call the shots as to what is and is not allowed (which MT's owner does), providing the rules are within the reach of the law and do not break the law (which they do not).

 The guidelines for discussion outlined at the "Rules" link are pretty clear and, I think, pretty reasonable.

 So.

 Like the rules ... or lump 'em.  Or you can always complain about them to the staff and rally for change in an appropriate fashion.

 And that's the last off-topic post I'll put here. :boing1:


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 21, 2005)

Hi Folks,
I only have one comment about this situation and then I'll go on to the topic at hand.
I've dealt with over 20 message boards in my 11 year tenure on the net and only was "banned" from one for truthful statements that were corrections to a particular board and I was "banned" for speaking the truth, not for flaming the board,not for "trolling" to do nothing more than argue to upset members rather than give insight, We can all give our opinions in a courteous,respectful manner.
Back to the topic at hand...
I've known Prof. Nick Cerio for approximately 15 years. I first met him at my first "open" Karate" tournament in the New England area. At that time, He was one of the main referees for KRANE and he was often the chief ref for many of the Black Belt divisions,whether it be for forms,weapons or sparring. Over, the years, I would see many of his Black Belts compete or judge at events. People such as Gene Couto,George Basmajian, Mike Burton, Bill Gregory, Rocky Dirico,Don Rodrigues as well as Nancy Lee Ambrosia Cerio, who was married to Prof. Cerio and was there for much of the creation of what was to become "Nick Cerio's Kenpo". So, i've had the personal pleasure of seeing the changes in kata, the addition of more japanese kata, and the creation of the "circle" forms as well as the "waza" kata through different individuals. I did not train with Prof. Cerio and that was my choice due to different reasons. But, his art was not Ed Parker's American Kenpo and those two given arts were distinctly different. So when people mention EPAK and think that Prof. Cerio taught that art, they are mistaken.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## eyebeams (Sep 21, 2005)

Well, I *don't* study Parker-lineage kenpo but comparing it to what I do study, the interesting thing is that EPAK's Japanese roots and acquired Chinese influences do, in many ways, "average out" to softer Okinawan methods I'm familiar with.

 Really, the whole thing is a crapshoot, but I feel that good forms are only semi-systematized. That means that they are not completely bound to the core principles of the system but still encompass them.

 I also believe that there does need to be a set of robust bunkai that work in dynamic situations and are "canonical" to an art; that is, we avoid the pitfalls of overly-loose applications that break the set down into meaninglessness.

 Finally, I think that if kata encompass the whole system, it's a bit of a shame. The easiest place for a martial artist to express him or herself as an individual is through recombining fundamentals in new ways and expanding horizons without the explicit guidance of a set.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 21, 2005)

> But, his art was not Ed Parker's American Kenpo and those two given arts were distinctly different. So when people mention EPAK and think that Prof. Cerio taught that art, they are mistaken.


How verry true.
I knew Mr. Cerio back in the 70's and knew many of the people mentioned by Kepojoe.  I refereed with Mr. Cerio and his wife many times.  I had the pleasure of talking with him more than once in those days and truthfuly never realised that his forms where not Parkers till I got a chance to study Parkers system.  The two where different.
As to why some forms where changed I can not say  but I do know that the application of movement and the thought behind the "why" of doing them was always at the formost in his mind.


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## marlon (Sep 22, 2005)

So, what are the differences btwn 'traditional' forms/kata and the Kajukenbo/Kenpo/kempo based forms we have today.  Aside from the obvious difference, why do some stay so focused on the Okinawan based forms, and turn to them to deepen their understanding and skill even if they are more American based systems?  what do they see in them?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Thunderbolt (Sep 22, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Now that I'm no longer on staff, I'm just gonna say this right here, right now and take any heat I get for it willingly.
> 
> Don't like the rules? F'in' leave.
> 
> This is a privately owned board and your ability to be here is a priveledge - not a right. This board is for friendly discussion, not open insults, slamming, sniping, ratting out, fraudbusting or any other such horse ****. If you want that, go to a trash-talking site, there's plenty of them.


if you don't like what other write specifically about your *art*, don't READ. It's that simple. You can't take it like a man and CAN'T defend your *tradition* or *none-tradition* art AFTER reading people's comments.?

I have seen people like you using big words such as *not open insults, slamming, sniping, ratting out, fraudbusting or any other such horse ****.  * BUT when it comes to *prove* or *show* it to everybody, there is no proof. The same can be said to your *intellectual*.

I assume that this is still an OPEN PUBLIC forum which we can have a friendly discussion about *art*.

Oh yeah, i'm fully aware that this is a *privately owned* board. You don't need to remind me about this because all i can see is AK schools' ads pop up everywhere. It's definitely private right here. I'm sure there is some kajukenbo school's ads as well. It's good for business.! 

Because you people PAY to support this board, you can do anything you want. Your *supporting member* status sure proves my case.

i'm also aware of *rules* which are specifically created to *fit* the need of CERTAIN individuals who *share* the same point of views in this forum.

Before I replied to your post, I received a *administrative warning* PM about what i wrote earlier.

I'm waiting to see what i will get AFTER posting this message. I'm not here to insult anybody. If you can't handle what I write here,  don't read.


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## Bester (Sep 22, 2005)

:2xBird2: 





			
				Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> if you don't like what other write specifically about your *art*, don't READ. It's that simple. You can't take it like a man and CAN'T defend your *tradition* or *none-tradition* art AFTER reading people's comments.?


Last I checked, Shesulsa's female, but then again with the intellect you've so far demonstrated I wouldn't expect you to notice that. Your comment "take it like a man" demonstrates your sexist nature. Maybe you should "take it like a woman". So go give birth or bend over, your choice.



> I have seen people like you using big words such as *not open insults, slamming, sniping, ratting out, fraudbusting or any other such horse ****. *BUT when it comes to *prove* or *show* it to everybody, there is no proof. The same can be said to your *intellectual*.


This is a writen medium. Anyone thinking they can "prove" anything is a moron. 



> I assume that this is still an OPEN PUBLIC forum which we can have a friendly discussion about *art*.


Yes it is. Now, care to do that, or are you going to continue to whine like a brat kid who isn't being treated like a god?



> Oh yeah, i'm fully aware that this is a *privately owned* board. You don't need to remind me about this because all i can see is AK schools' ads pop up everywhere. It's definitely private right here. I'm sure there is some kajukenbo school's ads as well. It's good for business.!


Hmm...There are 8 forums sponsored by Kenpo organizations/schools, out of 33 sponsorships. There are no popups, unless you're some moron who is too stupid to run proper anti-virus and spyware protection on your PC. As to the "Good for business part", yup. The owner of this site is just sipping Dom and being fed grapes by his bevy of bathing beauties. 



> Because you people PAY to support this board, you can do anything you want. Your *supporting member* status sure proves my case.


Damn it, I got jipped. I've been suspended what, 5-6? times since I sent in my first check. I didn't know I could do anything I wanted. Well, lets see, since I can do anything, then I guess telling you what an inbred, closeminded, fart sniffing, pigeon brained, small peckered ******* you are won't get me so much as a "Bad Bester, No Cookies for you."



> i'm also aware of *rules* which are specifically created to *fit* the need of CERTAIN individuals who *share* the same point of views in this forum.


Really, like who? Which rules?
Oh, you mean the ones that try to maintain civil and polite conversation?
A skill (along with manners, courtesy, and being able to behave like a civilized person) that appears to be so beyond so many so-called martial artists?



> Before I replied to your post, I received a *administrative warning* PM about what i wrote earlier.


Probably because you're a pompous little ignoramus, but I could be correct.



> I'm waiting to see what i will get AFTER posting this message. I'm not here to insult anybody. If you can't handle what I write here, don't read.


Hopefully booted to the groin. If you can't follow this boards rules, maybe you should go hang out someplace where they get all excited over being a moron, like bullshido.


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## Sapper6 (Sep 22, 2005)

could someone show this clown the door please?


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## RevIV (Sep 22, 2005)

I think everyone needs to take a breath, sit back and look at whats being written here. then you need to go to the thread "adapting Kenpo for disabilities" section. read all those, and then see how you Martial Artists feel about how you are acting. I have very limited responses on any forum in fear of a flame war. I will use all will power not to become part of that section of the internet. But please. Check that thread and see what things are really supposed to be like on this forum as well as in the martial arts. Before you go, i have written more in that section than any other because i felt that i was actually helping the person asking the question, nothing more.

In Peace
Jesse D.


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## shesulsa (Sep 22, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Damn it, I got jipped. I've been suspended what, 5-6? times since I sent in my first check. I didn't know I could do anything I wanted. Well, lets see, since I can do anything, then I guess telling you what an inbred, closeminded, fart sniffing, pigeon brained, small peckered ******* you are won't get me so much as a "Bad Bester, No Cookies for you."


 :xtrmshock Bad Bester! No cookies for you! :lol2:


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## Sapper6 (Sep 22, 2005)

later thunderbolt,

don't the door hit you in da ***  

 :asian:


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## Bester (Sep 22, 2005)

ThunderTroll said:
			
		

> the last time i checked, Shesulsa is not my biittch. She might be yours. I would not care if you put yours *Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu **Emperor's Hand, 3rd Level ASSsss into hers.*
> 
> Bester, here is my best :2xBird2:


Truely you have a dizzying intellect.


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## Thunderbolt (Sep 22, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Truely you have a dizzying intellect.


you say it like if it's a bad thing. I heard it WORSE but you know what.? I can take it from an uneducated person like you as a compliment because that is the NICEST thing you ever say to people anyway. 

Thanks but i sure hope somebody show you the BETTER way of saying thing.



> Sapper6


 Don't worry about the door hitting me though. Thank you for the warning.

here is my best to both of you. :2xBird2:

if you haven't paid to learn anything here, at least you PAID to get *your own CUSTOMIZED* BS title.

save it for your RETIREMENT. You definitely need it.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 22, 2005)

*Ladies and Gentlemen, and other lifeforms.
Take the pissing matches, the attitudes, etc off this board.

If you cannot follow our posted rules, please save both us and yourself time and don't post. 

Please get back on the original topic (which was rather interesting IMO), and take up any concerns with the rules/moderation/etc in the Support Forum.

Thank you.*


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## DavidCC (Sep 22, 2005)

I used teh search function and dug us some posts by prof. Joe Shuras, who is a 7th dan in Karazenpo and was close to the action when this was all happening:


Especailly see post #22
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=308016&postcount=22

here is the entire thread
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19154


Pinan/Pinion #1
Taikyoku #1

Pinan/Pinion #2
Parts of Taikyoku #2 & #3, Kung Line Drills & Basics from the instruction Nick Cerio received while in Hawaii.

Pinan/Pinion #3
The Pinan kata #3 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #4
The Pinan kata #4 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #5
The Pinan kata #5 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Side note - as a reference the Okinawan Karate Pinan series 1 - 5 as well as the Shotokan Heian series 1 - 5 kata can be referenced. Note - Shotokan Karate switched Pinan #1 to Heian #2 and Pinan #2 to Heian #1.


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## BallistikMike (Sep 23, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> I used teh search function and dug us some posts by prof. Joe Shuras, who is a 7th dan in Karazenpo and was close to the action when this was all happening:
> 
> 
> Especailly see post #22
> ...


This is the confusion I had and why. I thought Pinin 3, 4 & 5 were the exact same as Pinan/Heian 3, 4 & 5 and could not for the life of me find Pinan/Hein 3 in the TWO Mas Oyama books I have. I have since learned that the 2 books I have are the exact same book "essentials" of Karate and Karates Basic Course - renamed from the previous book.

Those books have Taikyoku 1 & 3, Heina 4 & 5 and Saiha Kata in them. That was my confusion. 

It was never a challenge or an openeing to become one about the changing of Kata from "Traditional" Japanes/Okinawan MA's to the Kempo arts.

Thanks


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## Harley Quinn (Oct 13, 2005)

This is such a good thread, I am glad it did not get closed. Thanks to all for the information. Of course if it was not for the desenters and others all this information would not have been presented. 

I did notice that the ones who desented, esculated the more they were told to cease. It was like adding gas to a flame. Funny but you could tell they were determined (like a moth to a flame) almost compelled. Strange.

Thanks also to John Bishop for allowing us a look into his background. 
All in all a good time reading the whole thing. This thread and the one given for information (karazenpo) seem to have a pretty high decease (to go away)
factor.

Harley


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## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2005)

Harley Quinn said:
			
		

> I did notice that the ones who desented, esculated the more they were told to cease. It was like adding gas to a flame. Funny but you could tell they were determined (like a moth to a flame) almost compelled. Strange.
> 
> Harley


yeah, it's not like anyone was twisting their arm to take part in the thread...i just don't get it.


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## MJS (Oct 14, 2005)

The problem posters have been dealt with.  That is over and done with as far as I'm concerned.

We have a very good thread going here with some good information.  I hope that it can continue and that people will keep contributing to it in a positive fashion. :ultracool 

Mike


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 26, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> The "traditional" argument comes up all the time when people are trying to dis American martial arts.
> 
> Here are the founding dates of some popular martial arts:
> 
> ...


 
Thank you, sir.

I personally am glad that Nick Cerio put the forms that he did into his system. There's a lot of good information buried within this thread - for those willing to get past the flames. Imitation and adaptation are in the history of all martial arts - that is what makes them so rich.


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## arnisador (Oct 26, 2005)

This is a great reminder that so many arts are much newer than people would care to realize!


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 26, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> This is a great reminder that so many arts are much newer than people would care to realize!


 
Yes, it is. The internal combustion engine predates most of them. 

 ...it's also a good reminder that John Bishop is an extremely knowledgeable and valuable MT member.

On edit, is there any way to get rid of Thunderbolt's post? Every time I look at it I get ticked. True I could avoid looking at it, but Shesulsa is another valuable MT member.


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## Michael Billings (Oct 27, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> On edit, is there any way to get rid of Thunderbolt's post? Every time I look at it I get ticked. True I could avoid looking at it, but Shesulsa is another valuable MT member.


 I concur. Done! But my rationale was more for the inflammitory, insulting, rude tone.

-Michael Billings
-MT Asst. Administrator-


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## Harley Quinn (Nov 29, 2005)

Hmmm interesting no Thunderbolt no thread. Guess he was the one carring the discussion all along. Pretty sad if you ask me. Have not been here in over a month and come back and it is dead. 

JR you are so sensitive.

Guess the joke is on me this time. OH well. Bud and Lou are eager to play.

Harley


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## Jonathan Randall (Nov 29, 2005)

Harley Quinn said:
			
		

> JR you are so sensitive.
> 
> Harley


 
Not sensitive, if you ever read the deleted post, simply that I was raised with basic standards of behavior.

What was the purpose of your post?


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## MJS (Nov 29, 2005)

Harley Quinn said:
			
		

> Hmmm interesting no Thunderbolt no thread. Guess he was the one carring the discussion all along. Pretty sad if you ask me. Have not been here in over a month and come back and it is dead.
> 
> JR you are so sensitive.
> 
> ...


 
Threads do die, either from lack of interest or because there may not be much left to discuss.  

As for the threads/people that were removed, this was due to rule violations.  However, that is a closed issue.

Please feel free however, to revive the thread.  Usefull information is always welcome here! 

Mike


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## BallistikMike (Nov 29, 2005)

My questions were answered. Should read the thread first. You would have realized that.


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## Harley Quinn (Nov 29, 2005)

Thanks for the information Mike.

Harley


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## Harley Quinn (Nov 30, 2005)

Funny, I come back after a month away, look for a thread that I was interested in and make a comment and some punk dings me for 3 points and calls me a troll, dos'nt even leave a Kiss. LOL

Harley


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## Harley Quinn (Nov 30, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Not sensitive, if you ever read the deleted post, simply that I was raised with basic standards of behavior.
> 
> What was the purpose of your post?


 
Well, I guess I did not get to read the deleted post, so I have no way of knowing do I. But I do have an idea of who gave me the ding don't I.
All for the sake of what? I see only parts of the post and then we only have half of the story, the person might have had some good points but delivered them bad or not to your liking. But I will never know because I can't get the chance to read them and make my decision, not yours.

I can see I will not last long with this, considering you have been here and obviously are such a charmer. Just look at all the good marks. I believe maybe its the avatar, yes that must be it.

Harley


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## MJS (Dec 1, 2005)

Just a few things:

1- We had an interesting discussion going here.  Lets try to return to the topic of the thread please.

2- If anyone is having an issue with someone regarding rep points, please feel free to contact an Admin. for assistance.

Mike


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## Harley Quinn (Dec 1, 2005)

First I would like to say that part of the reason John Bishop rose to the occasion was because of the adverse thread going on, so we get some great information from him. So for all of Thunderbolts msguided efforts we did get good effort and lots of information. From those who stood there ground and replied.
But and sadly the other side is not heard from why because it is deleated.

So for espousing this, I then get another ding by Shesusla saying it is not progessive (productive). LOL OK. I have read and seen much in print prior to posting to this Martial Arts thread but I am feeling the rath of speaking my mind and not being really pointed until now. What is progressive (productive) Shesusla your one liners of respect on the board to other Moderators and dings on the back side with one liners?

Oh how short the stay, thanks but no thanks. Until this particular small clique can get themselves together, it is not something I want to be part of. I can't discuss with out arguement and pointing out likes and dislikes.

I am not in a position to do, nor would I want to do, what I see being done on this particular thread. Pretty sad on a Martial Arts Board.

I in my opinion will never step over the line and call someone in particular a name because I don't like what they are doing I will point out my thought. So If you want to give me a ding I will comment on it.

I have received more green than red but I see the reasoning behind the whole thing suspect. Should I report it to the Moderator that I agree with or should I report it to the one I don't agree with.  A real catch 22 situation and it is sad because it is something that is being devised by the Moderators and Administrators themselves.

I will now go to other threads and hopefully have a good time with this board. But I am not so sure just because of my own inherent survival skill.
What I think is Productive is different than others, I truley feel what I have said is productive/progessive. I am going to leave it alone now.

My thought on this and it is the last one I will say, ever, regarding this subject, is: Red and Green will work for the ones who have no center core that is already established.

Harley


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## The Kai (Dec 1, 2005)

Was there ever a point to your posts?


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## MJS (Dec 1, 2005)

*Mod. Note. *
*Please, keep the conversation on topic..*

*-MJS*
*-MT Moderator-*

In addition, this is not the place to discuss rep! As I said before, if anyone is having a problem with that, please contact an Admin. to address it!


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