# Shawn Obasi & Emin Boztepe friendly Chi-sau



## jeff_hasbrouck

These are a couple of vids I'm pulling off my buddies Sifu Alex Wallenwein's Wing Tsun FB page.

Has Mr. Obasi Rolling with Emin, Randy Williams and Sam Kwok.





 - Obasi & Sifu Boztepe





 - Obasi & Sifu Kwok





 - Obasi & Sifu Williams



A lot of people talk big-time smack about Obasi, which I hope we don't see in this thread. But reguardless, I'm just really glad to see someone from our martial family getting in the ring 


Enjoy folks!


Jeff


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## knight2000

Sorry but he was being an *** with Randy Williams. He is lucky that Randy held back. I can't stand people who make chi Sao a battle. It is not intended to be a match of skills


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## WTchap

I'd seen the Randy Williams clip and the Sam Kwok clip, but not the one with Emin. Very nice - never had the chance to meet Emin, but I'd love to... seems like a nice guy as well as a skilled one.


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## K-man

I'm sure that someone will come on board and point out what they are doing wrong but from my point of view, where I try to train an uneducated type of Chi Sau, in a karate context, I really enjoyed the first two videos. Once again, from a position of ignorance, I thought the third video was a bit physical.   :asian:


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## mook jong man

The Shaun Obasi dude tends to lean a bit so that would make him susceptible to being pivoted.
Being a small guy the thing I notice with some big guys in Chi Sau is that they tend to do a fair bit of grabbing and also a lot of pushing your forearms back with their palms in an effort to keep you off balance and to keep you out of range from hitting them.

With the grabbing all you have to do is swing your elbow over the top of his wrist and drop it down , it breaks the grab and pulls them down into a strike.
To counter the constant pushing back with the palms pivoting works quite well.

Now the thing I noticed with the first two masters is that they maintained their optimum angles and always had forward force on.
With the third clip I felt that the masters angles were too close to his body and in some instances were even collapsed by this Shaun Obasi dude.

In my opinion against a big strong guy like Mr Shaun Obasi , Mr Williams should have been doing a lot more pivoting to try and negate that size and strength advantage that Mr Obasi had over him.
Pivoting is a must in situations like that or you are just going to get thrown all over the place like a rag doll.


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## jeff_hasbrouck

knight2000 said:


> Sorry but he was being an *** with Randy Williams. He is lucky that Randy held back. I can't stand people who make chi Sao a battle. It is not intended to be a match of skills



Your right about him being an *** with Sifu Williams. Now not trying to discredit him, but he (Sifu Williams) isn't that great. I've watched many many docs and interviews with Sifu Williams, and theoretically I think he is spot on. But practically I think his WC isn't good at all. Again not to dis-credit his WC or anything. I like Sifu Williams humble nature, he never claims (that I remember) to be some mystic grand-master or a great fighter. Just a humble practitioner that passes his knowledge onto some students. I'm definately down with his mentality.


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## jeff_hasbrouck

WTchap said:


> I'd seen the Randy Williams clip and the Sam Kwok clip, but not the one with Emin. Very nice - never had the chance to meet Emin, but I'd love to... seems like a nice guy as well as a skilled one.



He (Emin) used to run our headquarters (NAS). My old 'Sifu' has a bunch of pictures with him and a boat-load of stories. Emin is a real-deal kinda guy. A true warrior. You can easily see this by comparing the footage with him and Obasi, rather than the Sifu Williams and Sifu Kwok. Emin easily controls Obasi. It really is effortless with him. The other two clips you don't sense as much control by the other Sifu's. This isn't a "style" or a "branch" thing, this is just Emin is a bad-***. It's the clips like these that made me choose Leung Ting WT. Seeing old Emin clips and Kernshpecht, and some of the other really good Euro guys like Bernd Wagner (RIP), or 'Dai'-Sifu Norbert Madai. They all have insane skills, and thats what I want. If any other WT guys could help me out and remember the other really good Euro guy. I can't remember his name, but he is flipin awesome as well. Sifu Jeff Webb is under him now I believe.

All the best,



Jeff


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## jeff_hasbrouck

Heinrich Pfaff is the other Euro guy I was thinking of a minute ago. This is more of a "glamour" clip than anything else, but its the first one I found and one I've seen a thousand times. Another flashy clip I used to really enjoy.


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## geezer

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> ...Sifu Jeff Webb is under him now I believe.



No, _Jeff Webb_ runs the  totally _independent_ "NVTO" (see the link in my signature). But you're right, he knows many of the top EWTO guys and has maintained a close friendship with some of them over the years. He started his training here in the states under LT and then served in the U.S. Air Force and was stationed in Germany where he trained in the EWTO. I believe the EWTO influence is apparent if you compare the "flavor" and quality his technique to that of your old instructor, Will and others (including me) who just trained here in the States.

Now back to the topic of WC leg-work and kicks. Some people just have superior skills, man. Of course they may train like beasts too, But I could train for a _lifetime_ and not have leg skills like that. Sometimes I wonder if kids who grow up raised on soccer might not have different athletic aptitudes from someone from a different culture. Sure kids here love soccer, but most move on to the popular sports like football, basketball, baseball and so on as they get older. I, for example, was never a great athlete, but grew up in the shadow of my big brother, a state champion wrestler. Instincts learned in childhood stick with you, you know.


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## jeff_hasbrouck

I remember Sifu Webb splitting, and I knew that he started his own thing. He took some of our guys from the San Antonio kwoon. I had heard from my si-hing he was training with Pfaff (or under him) because when Sifu Webb left he had just got his 5th I believe a year or so before, and he didn't finish the knives by that point. Whatever the case, I really enjoyed rolling with Sifu Webb. Ya he's a little chubby, but man can he go go go. His precision and speed are really good. He in my eyes earned the title of master.


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## blindsage

Those are three very different videos.  The first one is like a demonstration and at no point does Obasi put the kind of hard pressure on that he does in the Williams video.  The second video looks like a friendly exchange except Obasi seems kind of lost as what the point of chi-sau is.  In the last it seems like one person is trying to prove something (Obasi) and the other thought it was just going to be a friendly exchange.  Not a really good comparison.

And it really seems to me that Obasi needs to go back and work on fundamentals some more.


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## jeff_hasbrouck

blindsage said:


> Those are three very different videos.  The first one is like a demonstration and at no point does Obasi put the kind of hard pressure on that he does in the Williams video.  The second video looks like a friendly exchange except Obasi seems kind of lost as what the point of chi-sau is.  In the last it seems like one person is trying to prove something (Obasi) and the other thought it was just going to be a friendly exchange.  Not a really good comparison.
> 
> And it really seems to me that Obasi needs to go back and work on fundamentals some more.



Well I'll just call a spade a spade. IMO Emin is better, pure and simple. Obasi doesn't have a chance with Emin. Emin is shutting him down before it ever begins. You don't see the other two doing that.


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## mook jong man

blindsage said:


> Those are three very different videos.  The first one is like a demonstration and at no point does Obasi put the kind of hard pressure on that he does in the Williams video.  The second video looks like a friendly exchange except Obasi seems kind of lost as what the point of chi-sau is.  In the last it seems like one person is trying to prove something (Obasi) and the other thought it was just going to be a friendly exchange.  Not a really good comparison.
> 
> And it really seems to me that Obasi needs to go back and work on fundamentals some more.



I learned the hard way very early on , never to fall for the "Let's just do some light rolling" line.
The first time someone almost broke my nose with an elbow strike , the second time someone tried to trap me and hit me in the throat.

_*When doing chi sau with unknown people always be "switched on".*_
Always be ready to go up a gear from "light rolling" into chi sau sparring and even to real fighting if need be.


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## mook jong man

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Well I'll just call a spade a spade. IMO Emin is better, pure and simple. Obasi doesn't have a chance with Emin. Emin is shutting him down before it ever begins. You don't see the other two doing that.



It's true , you can see he hasn't just spent most of his time doing "light rolling".
He's put in some serious hours doing very vigorous chi sau sparring , probably with opponents that out weighed him by quite a bit.


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## Xue Sheng

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Well I'll just call a spade a spade. IMO Emin is better, pure and simple. Obasi doesn't have a chance with Emin. Emin is shutting him down before it ever begins. You don't see the other two doing that.



I do not know Randy Williams but from what I watched I am fairly confident here that Samuel Kwok could do the same if he so desired.


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## knight2000

Kwok and Williams could both do the same thing. Seems like someone is Emin worshipping.


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## jeff_hasbrouck

Xue Sheng said:


> I do not know Randy Williams but from what I watched I am fairly confident here that Samuel Kwok could do the same if he so desired.


Emin vs. Sifu Kwok, Emin would destroy him. He is just that damn good. And truth be told, if Sifu Kwok was that good you wouldn't see obasi being so pushy. But this is only my opinion. From my experience, you don't turn it "on" or "off", it is there or its not. And from what I see, its not.All the best,Jeff


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## Xue Sheng

knight2000 said:


> kwok and williams could both do the same thing. *seems like someone is emin worshipping*.



qft


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## Xue Sheng

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Emin vs. Sifu Kwok, Emin would destroy him. He is just that damn good. And truth be told, if Sifu Kwok was that good you wouldn't see obasi being so pushy. But this is only my opinion. From my experience, you don't turn it "on" or "off", it is there or its not. And from what I see, its not.All the best,Jeff



Well since I never mentioned Emin vs. Sifu Kwok I am not sure why that was even brought into it. As for the rest Kwok was blind folded so it was a demo and if Obasi did anything there he took advantage of the situation. Not saying anything for or against Obasi's skills just I do not think that was a match with Kwok nor do I feel Kwok saw it as such or took it seriously


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## blindsage

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Well I'll just call a spade a spade. IMO Emin is better, pure and simple. Obasi doesn't have a chance with Emin. Emin is shutting him down before it ever begins. You don't see the other two doing that.


I wasn't commenting on skill level.  I've only ever heard great things about Emin's skill, but at no point is Obasi even attempting the pressure he puts on Williams or even Kwok.  The Emin video is not the same kind of video as the other two.  It is not an exchange of chi sau, it is a demo for Emin.


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## blindsage

mook jong man said:


> I learned the hard way very early on , never to fall for the "Let's just do some light rolling" line.
> The first time someone almost broke my nose with an elbow strike , the second time someone tried to trap me and hit me in the throat.
> 
> _*When doing chi sau with unknown people always be "switched on".*_
> Always be ready to go up a gear from "light rolling" into chi sau sparring and even to real fighting if need be.


I understand what your saying, but not everyone thinks that way.  I don't feel the need to knock the crap out of every fool that comes along and doesn't know what "friendly" means.  My ego isn't that fragile.  I've met a number of very skilled people that feel the same way.


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## blindsage

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Emin vs. Sifu Kwok, Emin would destroy him. He is just that damn good. And truth be told, if Sifu Kwok was that good you wouldn't see obasi being so pushy. But this is only my opinion. From my experience, you don't turn it "on" or "off", it is there or its not. And from what I see, its not.All the best,Jeff


Maybe Emin is better than Kwok.  That doesn't change the fact that these are two different videos.  One is a demo, the other is _blind folded_ chi sau where Obasi disconnects multiple times because he can't get the advantage any other way.  Emin ends every interaction immediately to show what can be done.  The other videos are rolling, different animals.  And from my experience, it's not about "on" or "off" its about how far you want to go.  Again, there are plenty of high quality instructors out there that don't feel the need to crack heads in public to "prove" something.  There are also plenty that do.  One doesn't prove a higher skill level than another.


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## Nabakatsu

I know for a fact that Obasi wouldn't dare pull that crap on Emin, maybe it's because he's been hit enough times, maybe it's because he's clearly not as physically fit.. who knows.. but even if Emin was blindfolded, he wouldn't play nice, if Obasi disconnected.. he would RUSH IN and make him pay. 
Maybe the others were just too lighthearted, either way.. It would have been worse for Obasi if he attempted to rough up Emin than what had happened.


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## jeff_hasbrouck

I suppose most of ya'll aren't smelling what im stepping in.

Let me break it down so ya'll can understand. 

You can say all you want about kwok and williams being "nicer", but that just means they got pushed around. Emin didn't. Why? Becuase he controlled the situation. I was trying to point something out; You need to control the engagement. Emin did; the other two didn't. That is all im saying.

FFS


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## Xue Sheng

Of course it had nothing to do with the possibility that Obasi was a bit more intimidated my Emin based on reputation, size, and lack of a blind fold


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## Tames D

My problem with Emin... He looks great in seminars. He is commanding in videos. He talks a good game. But, I still can't get out of my mind the video of him and William Cheung wrestling. What a joke that two Wing Chun Masters could not execute basic Wing Chun principles in a REAL fight that Emin provoked. Very laughable. It's hard to take Emin seriously based on that. After all, fighting is what it's all about, not seminars and produced videos. I have seen no evidence that Emin can take care of himself in a real fight.


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## wtxs

blindsage said:


> I wasn't commenting on skill level.  I've only ever heard great things about Emin's skill, but at no point is Obasi even attempting the pressure he puts on Williams or even Kwok.  The Emin video is not the same kind of video as the other two.  It is not an exchange of chi sau, it is a demo for Emin.



You are 100% in pointing out the differences of what each one of the videos represent.

Now can we please move on with some thing more constructive?


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## blindsage

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> I suppose most of ya'll aren't smelling what im stepping in.
> 
> Let me break it down so ya'll can understand.
> 
> You can say all you want about kwok and williams being "nicer", but that just means they got pushed around. Emin didn't. Why? Becuase he controlled the situation. I was trying to point something out; You need to control the engagement. Emin did; the other two didn't. That is all im saying.
> 
> FFS


I know of two extremely high level kung fu instructors that passed away in the last couple of years, both highly respected.  One, when presented with somebody who would want to play "gotcha" to try and prove something, would just cut straight through the person's offense/defense and drop them to teach them a lesson.  The other hated hurting people and would "play" friendly, even with somebody out to prove something and play "gotcha".  One had a reputation as a bad ***, the other had a reputation for extremely high skill, but a lot of doubters.  Regardless they both had the highest regard for eachother's skill.


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## mook jong man

blindsage said:


> I understand what your saying, but not everyone thinks that way.  I don't feel the need to knock the crap out of every fool that comes along and doesn't know what "friendly" means.  My ego isn't that fragile.  I've met a number of very skilled people that feel the same way.



I'm not talking about punching the **** out of them.
I am just saying that you have to be ready for anything , even if they say they just want to do "light rolling".
For the record I did not hurt the two individuals that hit me with cheap shots , the first one ran out the door while my class mates held me back because they knew I would destroy him.
The second one a few years later that attempted to Fak Sau me in the throat for real had his young son with him , and due to his crappy stance and poor chi sau I was able to bulldoze him out the door and told him to hit the road.


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## mook jong man

Tames D said:


> My problem with Emin... He looks great in seminars. He is commanding in videos. He talks a good game. But, I still can't get out of my mind the video of him and William Cheung wrestling. What a joke that two Wing Chun Masters could not execute basic Wing Chun principles in a REAL fight that Emin provoked. Very laughable. It's hard to take Emin seriously based on that. After all, fighting is what it's all about, not seminars and produced videos. I have seen no evidence that Emin can take care of himself in a real fight.



Be that as it may with the wrestling episode , which was many years ago.
Anybody that has done Wing Chun for quite a  while , can just tell by the way the man moves and his degree of hand speed that the man can fight.

He is not from my lineage and I'm not really a fan , we favour a more internal method.
But credit must be given where credit is due.


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## Tames D

mook jong man said:


> Be that as it may with the wrestling episode , which was many years ago.
> Anybody that has done Wing Chun for quite a  while , can just tell by the way the man moves and his degree of hand speed that the man can fight.
> 
> He is not from my lineage and I'm not really a fan , we favour a more internal method.
> But credit must be given where credit is due.



Credit for what? Good video production? Good movement? Good hand speed? From what I saw in the video, the man can't fight in a street fight.


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## mook jong man

Tames D said:


> Credit for what? Good video production? Good movement? Good hand speed? From what I saw in the video, the man can't fight in a street fight.



I've seen other clips of him doing chi sau  and various other things over the years that other people on here have put up , and I recognise skill in Wing Chun when I see it.
That man would definitely have no problem in a street fight.


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## Tames D

mook jong man said:


> I've seen other clips of him doing chi sau  and various other things over the years that other people on here have put up , and I recognise skill in Wing Chun when I see it.
> *That man would definitely have no problem in a street fight.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I'm sorry, but the video on record of him vs Cheung suggests otherwise.


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## K-man

Once again I stress my ignorance of WC, but I have spent a little time looking at video of Emin and pulled up the fight with William Cheung.  How anyone could think that Emin wouldn't do well in a street fight astounds me. I'm with *Mook* on this one. Emin is one cool dude, IMHO.  If he put on a seminar here I would be there like a shot and I have never studied WC.  From a martial art pov, his footwork is fantastic, his hands are fast and he blends well with his opponent's attack to redirect and enter.  Every martial art student would learn heaps just by watching him, regardless of style.

Then I went back and looked at the three OP videos again.  I come up with the same conclusion. The first one demonstrated to me that Emin is light years ahead of Obesi and they were both 'playing fair'.  The second video, to me, was demonstrating the skill of Sifu Kwok to defend while blindfolded. Having practised that way a lot myself, I thought it was a good demonstration of skill, but in reality, Obesi could have taken advantage of the situation if he wanted to do the 'wrong thing'.

The final video is interesting from the perspective of venue.  It looks like it is at some sort of expo.  It looks like an impromptu sparring session with Obesi 'testing' Sifu Williams. His defence collapses. It is certainly not a good example of Chi Sau, again IMHO, but it is interesting to watch.   :asian:


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## Tames D

K-man said:


> Once again I stress my ignorance of WC, but I have spent a little time looking at video of Emin and pulled up the fight with William Cheung.  How anyone could think that Emin wouldn't do well in a street fight astounds me. I'm with *Mook* on this one. Emin is one cool dude, IMHO.  If he put on a seminar here I would be there like a shot and I have never studied WC.  From a martial art pov, his footwork is fantastic, his hands are fast and he blends well with his opponent's attack to redirect and enter.  Every martial art student would learn heaps just by watching him, regardless of style.
> 
> Then I went back and looked at the three OP videos again.  I come up with the same conclusion. The first one demonstrated to me that Emin is light years ahead of Obesi and they were both 'playing fair'.  The second video, to me, was demonstrating the skill of Sifu Kwok to defend while blindfolded. Having practised that way a lot myself, I thought it was a good demonstration of skill, but in reality, Obesi could have taken advantage of the situation if he wanted to do the 'wrong thing'.
> 
> The final video is interesting from the perspective of venue.  It looks like it is at some sort of expo.  It looks like an impromptu sparring session with Obesi 'testing' Sifu Williams. His defence collapses. It is certainly not a good example of Chi Sau, again IMHO, but it is interesting to watch.   :asian:



I agree with your post 100%. I'm not suggesting that Emin has no skills. He's highly skilled. I'm just not impressed with his performance in a real fight. I thought it looked sloppy and I saw no Wing Chun. A far cry from his videos. To me the bottom line is the actual fighting.


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## K-man

Tames D said:


> mook jong man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen other clips of him doing chi sau  and various other things over the years that other people on here have put up , and I recognise skill in Wing Chun when I see it.
> *That man would definitely have no problem in a street fight.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I'm sorry, but the video on record of him vs Cheung suggests otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you have better video than the one I watched I doubt that's the case. As I read elsewhere, Cheung was a lot older and Emin, a young conditioned fighter. It was also a long while ago. The fact that it went to the ground just demonstrates that s#1t happens and it doesn't demonstrate much more than that. A good martial artist of any style should be able to work on the ground and the fact that Emin seems to have done more there actually backs *Mook*'s observation. That incident happened in 1986, 27 years ago. William Cheung was 46, Emin was 24.  I have a vague suspicion that in the intervening time, Emin may have even improved a little!
> 
> As for street fights ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boztepe was born in Eski&#351;ehir, Turkey, the second of six children. At the age of four, his family, originally from Ba&#287;l&#305;ca village of Emirda&#287;, moved to Germany According to Boztepe, his early days in Germany were difficult due to his Turkish heritage&#8212;he was a constant target for racial insults and, more often than not, verbal abuse would escalate into physical abuse. Martial arts became something of a necessity and his father urged him to begin training. Boztepe recalled, "Germany was not the healthiest place for a young Turk in those days of growing racism and neo-Nazi movements." He claimed to have been in over 300 street fights, many of them a result of this period, though he also claimed to have not started any of these fights.
> 
> 
> In 1976, at the age of 14, Boztepe began studying martial arts, including judo, Shotokan karate, wrestling, Muay Thai, and traditional boxing. During this period, he also fought as an amateur boxer in 16 matches.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emin_Boztepe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt!   :asian:
Click to expand...


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## geezer

K-man said:


> Unless you have better video than the one I watched I doubt that's the case. As I read elsewhere, Cheung was a lot older and Emin, a young conditioned fighter. It was also a long while ago. The fact that it went to the ground just demonstrates that s#1t happens and it doesn't demonstrate much more than that. A good martial artist of any style should be able to work on the ground and the fact that Emin seems to have done more there actually backs *Mook*'s observation. That incident happened in 1986, 27 years ago. William Cheung was 46, Emin was 24.  I have a vague suspicion that in the intervening time, Emin may have even improved a little!
> 
> As for street fights  ... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt!   :asian:



Well said, K-man. I met Emin when he first visited the US about a year or so after that infamous challenge, and I saw an original, and apparently unedited version of the video. I can definitely say un-edited, or at least less-edited because it was longer than the versions put up on youtube. As to who won that bout, there was _no question_. As to who provoked it, there there are two sides to that. It was a long time ago and frankly, I don't care. 

What is certain, is that even way back then as a junior ranked EWTO instructor, Emin was a serious scrapper. His stand-up game was fierce, whether he used WT, or a mix of the other fighting and brawling skills he'd picked up. But like a lot of other stand up fighters at that time, his ground game was under-developed. That comes out in the video. And,   at the time I met him he was already working very hard to build stronger grappling skills and working privately with some world class wrestlers. BJJ was just beginning to get attention, and Emin was already adapting to the new reality. I know this for a fact because a good friend and kung fu brother of mine was briefly a room-mate of Emin's in the early 90's. In the decades since, it's obvious that Emin has become far more knowledgeable _both_ in WT/WC and grappling. 

Now, I'm not a student of Emin's, and I personally know a lot of people that flat out don't like him or trust him. Whatever. And, of course, like any commercial instructor, his videos are highly produced promotions, and not exactly an accurate representation of how things can go down in a real fight. A real fight, --check all the security camera clips on youtube-- looks more like that old video of Emin an William Cheung.  So anyway, I have to give credit where credit is due. Emin's skill, athleticism, and competitive spirit are extraordinary. ...And _obvious_. So when Tames dismisses him out of hand, he just sounds _uninformed._


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## mook jong man

K-man said:


> Tames D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you have better video than the one I watched I doubt that's the case. As I read elsewhere, Cheung was a lot older and Emin, a young conditioned fighter. It was also a long while ago. The fact that it went to the ground just demonstrates that s#1t happens and it doesn't demonstrate much more than that. A good martial artist of any style should be able to work on the ground and the fact that Emin seems to have done more there actually backs *Mook*'s observation. That incident happened in 1986, 27 years ago. William Cheung was 46, Emin was 24.  I have a vague suspicion that in the intervening time, Emin may have even improved a little!
> 
> As for street fights ..
> 
> 
> 
> ... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt!   :asian:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah , it was bloody years and years ago.
> Because I remember seeing the footage when I hadn't even been training that long.
> One of the instructors played us the video tape of it and said words to the effect that this is why you shouldn't say that your the best.
> Which is apparently what William Cheung must have claimed.
Click to expand...


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## mook jong man

Besides , he was 24.
I'm sure we all fight better or maybe more smarter now than when we were 24.
At 45 my gut is a lot bigger than it was then and I've got less hair , but I'm still a better fighter now than I was then.


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## jeff_hasbrouck

Xue Sheng said:


> Of course it had nothing to do with the possibility that Obasi was a bit more intimidated my Emin based on reputation, size, and lack of a blind fold



No, its because emin put him in his place.


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## jeff_hasbrouck

mook jong man said:


> I'm not talking about punching the **** out of them.
> I am just saying that you have to be ready for anything , even if they say they just want to do "light rolling".
> For the record I did not hurt the two individuals that hit me with cheap shots , the first one ran out the door while my class mates held me back because they knew I would destroy him.
> The second one a few years later that attempted to Fak Sau me in the throat for real had his young son with him , and due to his crappy stance and poor chi sau I was able to bulldoze him out the door and told him to hit the road.



I think everyone who has been in the system for a while has had this unfortunate event happen. It's happened to me many times, and it took me a while to figure it out, but I agree with you now.

The only time I ever did anything about it was in Georgia. It was on of the "Klaus" guys. I'll just point blank ya'll. Their chi-sau is *****. They don't use the centerline principal at all. They are very rough in the way they preform chi-sau. Look it up on the net to see what I'm talking about.

But this kid kept on trying to "push" me out of the roll and attack me. He used a fak-sau (and damn did he get me good lol) right on the mouth, so it looked like I got a botox injection. I just proceeded to show him every single hole in his defense, which was wrong of me. I was visiting their school, but I'm a firm believer if anyone tries to f...uck with you, you need to show them whats up.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

Tames D said:


> mook jong man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen other clips of him doing chi sau  and various other things over the years that other people on here have put up , and I recognise skill in Wing Chun when I see it.
> *That man would definitely have no problem in a street fight.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I'm sorry, but the video on record of him vs Cheung suggests otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That video was also taken 20 years ago, when he was a first level hot-head technician. Why don't you go challenge him and find out  lol
Click to expand...


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

The simple facts were:

Cheung was in Europe promoting his particular "brand" of WC. He put in the media that "Anyone from anywhere" was welcome to come challenge him while he was in the area. 

No Emin, being every bit of a young hot-head, marched into his seminar, during the seminar and challenged him. Cheung said, we'll wait till after... What really happened after that, as in who iniated it is anyones guess. but from the facts I would guess emin said "either put up your hands or get your *** kicked bubba".

Then yes, it wasn't the best representation of WT/WC, but it was a real fight. For those of you who haven't been in one, please shut up. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't glorified; It was a fight. That Emin won.

A big billy bad *** grandmaster against a barely instructor should have been a very one sided fight. That's what Cheung was saying back in the day. That he was the only one who was taught real wing chun and that the other instructors and their disciples were "laugh-able". Well after all the ***** talk Emin heard, he actually did something about it.

Those are the facts (and a little of my opinion) by all means state your opinion. Just if its an un-educated one, like never having practiced with LT WT people, it's probably best if you just asked some questions and were a trifle more respectful. I can't speak for anyone, but I have been challenged, and I always accept. But the way I learned when challenged it's no holds barred. There are no rules, and you better bring your A-game.


All the best,


Jeff


----------



## K-man

mook jong man said:


> Besides , he was 24.
> I'm sure we all fight better or maybe more smarter now than when we were 24.
> At 45 my gut is a lot bigger than it was then and I've got less hair , but I'm still a better fighter now than I was then.


At some stage we all decline. I like to think I fight smarter now. In my last tournament I beat a guy 40 years younger, and before anyone asks, he was out of nappies. . (He was 18.) But, realistically, if you look at a trained fighter, taller, younger and fitter than someone 20 years older, is it really a surprise that he had the upper hand?  I think Cheung did a good job just defending himself.  Mohammed Ali was about 24 at his peak. Imagine taking him on if you were 20 years older even if you were a martial arts legend.

And *Mook*, when you're 65, I'll be 85 (I hope  ). Using your logic, do you think I'll still be able to whip your ****?


----------



## knight2000

Jeff I agree with you on the Klaus guys. Looks like karate principals using wing chun techniques. I haven't visited their school because I know I would be in the same situation of having to school someone


----------



## geezer

knight2000 said:


> Jeff I agree with you on the Klaus guys. Looks like karate principals using wing chun techniques. I haven't visited their school because I know I would be in the same situation of having to school someone



A few random comments. First, I think that Jeff is so lonely for training partners ritht now that he would be overjoyed to have a few decent challenge matches! LOL.

Second, I wasn't sure who those "Klaus guys" in Georgia were. Would that be Klaus Brand's students? I don't know much about Brand. His techniques look like somebody with an LT/EWTO background, except totally _hard style_. Kind of an oxymoron, that. 

Also, check out the clips below. He not only has a uniform exactly like what Leung Ting wore in the 1980s, he effectively mimicks all of LT's gestures and over-the-top facial expressions. He even sports a goatee like LT wore at that time. It's a riot! 

Klaus impersonating LT circa 1984:





LT at that time:





and here in 1887 with the goatee beard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmt3mI7I07k&NR=1&feature=endscreen

_Pretty funny, eh?_  Except LT's movements , as you can see in that first short clip are very soft and elastic. Theres none of that hard slamming, and crashing of limbs. Just goes to show that it takes more than the clothes to make a master.


----------



## yak sao

geezer said:


> Second, I wasn't sure who those "Klaus guys" in Georgia were. Would that be Klaus Brand's students? I don't know much about Brand. His techniques look like somebody with an LT/EWTO background, except totally _hard style_. Kind of an oxymoron, that.



I would be willing to bet that it is Kirk Johnson and his son. They were with LT/Emin then left the organization sometime around late 90's or early 2000's.
Kirk at the time if memory serves me, was either a 12SG or 1TG.

Decent enough guy, and boy he loved contact.


----------



## geezer

yak sao said:


> I would be willing to bet that it is Kirk Johnson and his son. ...Decent enough guy, and boy he loved contact.



Honestly, I put being a "decent guy" way above being a good martial artist. And as far as that hard stuff on the video, yeah, hard-style can really hurt you. I'm not saying it can't work, it just isn't my idea of wing chun, ...especially WT (Wing Tsun). Even Emin, with all his strength, teaches soft, springy energy and avoids clashing force against force.


----------



## Xue Sheng

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> No, its because emin put him in his place.




Yup, I was right back at post #18 with the qft


----------



## Tames D

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Tames D said:
> 
> 
> 
> That video was also taken 20 years ago, when he was a first level hot-head technician. *Why don't you go challenge him and find out  lol[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Not sure what you are getting at here dude. Are you into challenges? Are you challenging me?
Click to expand...


----------



## K-man

geezer said:


> Honestly, I put being a "decent guy" way above being a good martial artist. And *as far as that hard stuff on the video, yeah, hard-style can really hurt you. *I'm not saying it can't work, it just isn't my idea of wing chun, ...especially WT (Wing Tsun). Even Emin, with all his strength, teaches soft, springy energy and avoids clashing force against force.


Makes a bit of a mockery of an art that was developed by a female and spoken of as a good fit for everyone. The comparison in karate would be kyokushin.  :asian:


----------



## geezer

Tames D said:


> ...Not sure what you are getting at here dude. Are you into challenges? Are you challenging me?



C'mon, Tames. Obviously Jeff _wasn't_ challenging you. Maybe he was being a bit confrontational? But, seriously, both you guys, let's lighten up and agree to disagree sometimes. This has been a great thread, ...so far. Let's not mess it up and get it locked.


----------



## Tames D

geezer said:


> C'mon, Tames. Obviously Jeff _wasn't_ challenging you. Maybe he was being a bit confrontational? But, seriously, both you guys, let's lighten up and agree to disagree sometimes. This has been a great thread, ...so far. Let's not mess it up and get it locked.



My apologies Geezer. I shouldn't have brought the Boztepe/Cheung video into the mix. It was a good thread until I got involved.


----------



## K-man

Tames D said:


> My apologies Geezer. I shouldn't have brought the Boztepe/Cheung video into the mix. It was a good thread until I got involved.


Quite the contrary. That video demonstrated how easy it is to forget you training when the adrenalin starts to flow.  It is a really good lesson for all of us that think we can use complex technique under pressure. Here you have a highly trained guy (WC) who under pressure ends up brawling on the ground like any other common thug. Also it is a good lesson not to shoot off your mouth 'coz somewhere there is always going to be someone bigger, better, faster or stronger than you.  :asian:


----------



## mook jong man

K-man said:


> And *Mook*, when you're 65, I'll be 85 (I hope  ). Using your logic, do you think I'll still be able to whip your ****?



I don't know mate?
But just to make it a bit more interesting the loser has to buy the winner a months supply of these. :uhyeah:


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

geezer said:


> A few random comments. First, I think that Jeff is so lonely for training partners ritht now that he would be overjoyed to have a few decent challenge matches! LOL.
> 
> Second, I wasn't sure who those "Klaus guys" in Georgia were. Would that be Klaus Brand's students? I don't know much about Brand. His techniques look like somebody with an LT/EWTO background, except totally _hard style_. Kind of an oxymoron, that.
> 
> Also, check out the clips below. He not only has a uniform exactly like what Leung Ting wore in the 1980s, he effectively mimicks all of LT's gestures and over-the-top facial expressions. He even sports a goatee like LT wore at that time. It's a riot!
> 
> Klaus impersonating LT circa 1984:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LT at that time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and here in 1887 with the goatee beard:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmt3mI7I07k&NR=1&feature=endscreen
> 
> _Pretty funny, eh?_  Except LT's movements , as you can see in that first short clip are very soft and elastic. Theres none of that hard slamming, and crashing of limbs. Just goes to show that it takes more than the clothes to make a master.



Geezer,

Yes I was speaking of the klaus brand guys. I usually don't like to trash talk and put up their full names. If people know who I'm talking about fine, but I'm not gonna go on a witch hunt lol. Klaus Brand back in the day wasn't so bad. It's just the crap he's done to the system. Klaus himself used to be very skilled IMO. But years ago, he started this funky chicken business... I digress.

Anyways, I would be overjoyed to have someone challenge me oldschool. I put up a new punching bag in my barn and quite worried the thing is gonna fall down on top of me. I think the most challenge type stuff is my dad when we screw around. My dad is in his 50's and he's a corrections officer (juvenille), so I always enjoy hearing his stories about how the boys did this or that. I always enjoy acting out scenario's. I was a military police officer, so I like to give my dad the WT version of how to subdue people as opposed to the crazy stuff they teach you as a law enforcement person.

I would seriously sacrifice a black chicken to the pagan gods if they would send me a training partner lol.

Oh and your videos were hilarious. I've seen them both a couple times before; Can't get enough of the facial expressions.

Si-gung (LT) did the 6th section chi-sau book in our school. Well, he took the pics with my old Sifu (Will Parker), so I always enjoyed pickin at Sifu Will saying thing's like (just imagine your face imploding when si-gung hits you", Sifu didn't think it was that funny, but after seeing all the other crazy photo's of people in the books making the faces to make it look "realistic" always set me in a fit of the giggles...

All the best,


Jeff


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

Geezer is right,

I do get a smidge over confrontational... When I feel that somone is just talking out of their ***, it makes me want to just pound them lol.

I do apologize Tames. Reguardless of your opinion, it's yours and you have the right to express it. 

However, if you do want a challenge, as Geezer stated before I'm literally STARVING for people to practice with .


I don't mind getting my *** kicked as long as I get to practice with someone lol.


All the best ya'll,



Jeff


----------



## Xue Sheng

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Si-gung (LT) did the 6th section chi-sau book in our school.



Is LT Leung Ting and he is your teacher's teacher?


----------



## Nabakatsu

LT is Leung Ting.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

Xue Sheng said:


> Is LT Leung Ting and he is your teacher's teacher?



Once upon a time yes. LT is "Leung Ting".

My previous Sifu (Will Parker)... Disowns people who leave the system. Many of my fellow class-mates aside from me left that particular kwoon and the LT orginization, for various reasons. Mine were simple, politics and BS.

I forgot who Parker originally was under, I know he trained some under Emin when he (Emin) head the NAS (North American Section) of the International Wing Tsun Association (IWTA), or as it was then known the "American Wing Tsun Orginization" or "AWTO".

Since then Sifu Parker has been promoted to 6th (probably 7th by now) level master of LTWT. He is the highest ranked instructor in North America in the IWTA. When he was a 2nd or 3rd tech (I believe, maybe 4th) he was accepted as LT's direct student. I started when he was a 4th Tech. Him and Sifu Jeff Webb (Austin), we're training partners.

I'll trash talk his lazy teaching methods all day, and his arrogant *** all the way to the bank. But the dude has some chops when it comes to WT. He has some lighting (and very powerful) hands. I most certainly don't regret starting WT with Sifu Parker; I'm just not happy about how he treats former students for deciding to leave the system.

When I was just starting we had a few guys leave on us, and Sifu would talk all sorts of mad trash about them being "Rebel's" and "Technique Stealers". So there's no love lost between the IWTA and me.

Anyways, hope that answered your question, and for everyone else who wants to know my background there it is. I have the pics on my profile from my 1st tech promotion with sifu and si-gung. And I think i'm still on parkers website lol. He doesn't do that many demo's and we did one for "asian heritage" festival or some such thing on fort sam (SA).


----------



## geezer

Jeff I know exactly where you are coming from, but please go over to those other forums when you feel the totally understandable need to "trash talk". The really cool thing about this place is that we disagree respectfully. It makes it a much cooler place to hang out. 

As far as the politics goes, I've had similar experiences. When I first left WT, I just drifted away, attending to the demands of career and family. I never publicly aired my disappointment with the politics and business dealings of the organization so I wasn't "shunned" or anything like that. When I ran into my old _dai-hing_ (kung fu brothers) we had pleasant exchanges. But many years later, when I joined the independent NVTO, stuff hit the fan. Now my oldest WT kung-fu brother (who I've known and trained with since 1979) won't even speak to me or answer a friendly email. _Total excommunication_. I guess I'm lucky I got out of that cult!

Honestly, I never fit in that well anyway. I was one of the guys who always asked "annoying questions". Now the shoe is on the other foot. Last night a student asked me an "annoying question" about a particular low level self defense technique against a headlock and takedown. He didn't think it would work reliably against a much larger, stronger opponent who had a grappling background. So I demonstrated it against the biggest guy in the class. He's 20 years younger that me, 80 pounds heavier, strong as an ox, and has a grappling background. Also, he's stubborn. That is to say a nice, respectful guy, but _never "compliant".

_So we did the technique and he grabbed me like he was going to rip my head off. Guess what? The defense didn't work! Especially when I let him get it on me really good. See, that's what I mean by an "annoying question" ...proving that something in the curriculum is ...a bit questionable at best. Problem is, I must be a crappy teacher ...because I _love_ questions like that! So the big guy and I, along with another big guy who also grapples and has a Primary-Level rank will be getting together this weekend to improve _our_ way of dealing with this attack.

See, that's what's wrong with me. I'd rather test my stuff and risk looking _imperfect_  ...even in front of students, than teach them orthodox "crap". Also, makes training a lot more interesting.


----------



## mook jong man

geezer said:


> Jeff I know exactly where you are coming from, but please go over to those other forums when you feel the totally understandable need to "trash talk". The really cool thing about this place is that we disagree respectfully. It makes it a much cooler place to hang out.
> 
> As far as the politics goes, I've had similar experiences. When I first left WT, I just drifted away, attending to the demands of career and family. I never publicly aired my disappointment with the politics and business dealings of the organization so I wasn't "shunned" or anything like that. When I ran into my old _dai-hing_ (kung fu brothers) we had pleasant exchanges. But many years later, when I joined the independent NVTO, stuff hit the fan. Now my oldest WT kung-fu brother (who I've known and trained with since 1979) won't even speak to me or answer a friendly email. _Total excommunication_. I guess I'm lucky I got out of that cult!
> 
> Honestly, I never fit in that well anyway. I was one of the guys who always asked "annoying questions". Now the shoe is on the other foot. Last night a student asked me an "annoying question" about a particular low level self defense technique against a headlock and takedown. He didn't think it would work reliably against a much larger, stronger opponent who had a grappling background. So I demonstrated it against the biggest guy in the class. He's 20 years younger that me, 80 pounds heavier, strong as an ox, and has a grappling background. Also, he's stubborn. That is to say a nice, respectful guy, but _never "compliant".
> 
> _So we did the technique and he grabbed me like he was going to rip my head off. Guess what? The defense didn't work! Especially when I let him get it on me really good. See, that's what I mean by an "annoying question" ...proving that something in the curriculum is ...a bit questionable at best. Problem is, I must be a crappy teacher ...because I _love_ questions like that! So the big guy and I, along with another big guy who also grapples and has a Primary-Level rank will be getting together this weekend to improve _our_ way of dealing with this attack.
> 
> See, that's what's wrong with me. I'd rather test my stuff and risk looking _imperfect_  ...even in front of students, than teach them orthodox "crap". Also, makes training a lot more interesting.



I'm visualising an attempted headlock from the side is that what your talking about Geezer ?
We were taught to do this one , as you get pulled down by the neck go with the force and hook punch him in the groin.

Like anything involving grabs or holds I reckon it's best if you can react before they can consolidate their grip.
The problem is they can hit you so hard with their forearm around the back of your neck that you can almost be knocked out before you realise whats happening.

What was the counter  you were trying to do Geezer , just out of interest?


----------



## geezer

mook jong man said:


> I'm visualising an attempted headlock from the side is that what your talking about Geezer ?
> We were taught to do this one , as you get pulled down by the neck go with the force and hook punch him in the groin.
> 
> Like anything involving grabs or holds I reckon it's best if you can react before they can consolidate their grip.
> The problem is they can hit you so hard with their forearm around the back of your neck that you can almost be knocked out before you realise whats happening.
> 
> What was the counter you were trying to do Geezer , just out of interest?



Mook, I used to think you were smart. Now I'm guessing that you are psychic. Yes, the attacker enters from the outside and headlocks you from the side, bending you over forwards and then punches your face. See the rather flowery and compliant version below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9x3ACeG1gY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=4

Except, at my urging, my opponent cranked the headlock really tight, and from his own experience turned his hips sideways to cover his groin. Then he took me straight down to the floor. We don't have any mats yet. So I went with it pressing his face back and attempted to break free by hooking his head with my leg. Check out the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5uDTMEjdY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=5

Usually this works for me, but this time my partner ducked the leg hook used his strength and weight (240lbs.) to cinch up the headlockv very tight and really crush me with his body ...and he was still holding back some. I did have access to his eyes and throat, but he's a tough old boy and wouldn't yield short of  me doing some real damage. And even if I had forced him to release, it's irrelevant. By that point, the _intended _techniques had failed.


----------



## K-man

geezer said:


> I was one of the guys who always asked "annoying questions". Now the shoe is on the other foot. Last night a student asked me an "annoying question" about a particular low level self defense technique against a headlock and takedown. He didn't think it would work reliably against a much larger, stronger opponent who had a grappling background. So I demonstrated it against the biggest guy in the class. He's 20 years younger that me, 80 pounds heavier, strong as an ox, and has a grappling background. Also, he's stubborn. That is to say a nice, respectful guy, but _never "compliant".
> 
> _So we did the technique and he grabbed me like he was going to rip my head off. Guess what? The defense didn't work! Especially when I let him get it on me really good. See, that's what I mean by an "annoying question" ...proving that something in the curriculum is ...a bit questionable at best. Problem is, I must be a crappy teacher ...because I _love_ questions like that! So the big guy and I, along with another big guy who also grapples and has a Primary-Level rank will be getting together this weekend to improve _our_ way of dealing with this attack.
> 
> See, that's what's wrong with me. I'd rather test my stuff and risk looking _imperfect_  ...even in front of students, than teach them orthodox "crap". Also, makes training a lot more interesting.


I encourage my guys to question. We test everything, especially when guys are providing their own explanations for kata. But if you really want to have some fun, get hold of a few self defence books from the library (most are not worth buying) and see if those techniques work. Even better look at the self defence for women books.  They are full of 'magical' techniques that haven't a hope of working. Better to find out in the dojo than on the street.
:asian:


----------



## Tony Dismukes

geezer said:


> Mook, I used to think you were smart. Now I'm guessing that you are psychic. Yes, the attacker enters from the outside and headlocks you from the side, bending you over forwards and then punches your face. See the rather flowery and compliant version below.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9x3ACeG1gY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=4
> 
> Except, at my urging, my opponent cranked the headlock really tight, and from his own experience turned his hips sideways to cover his groin. Then he took me straight down to the floor. We don't have any mats yet. So I went with it pressing his face back and attempted to break free by hooking his head with my leg. Check out the following:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5uDTMEjdY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=5
> 
> Usually this works for me, but this time my partner ducked the leg hook used his strength and weight (240lbs.) to cinch up the headlockv very tight and really crush me with his body ...and he was still holding back some. I did have access to his eyes and throat, but he's a tough old boy and wouldn't yield short of  me doing some real damage. And even if I had forced him to release, it's irrelevant. By that point, the _intended _techniques had failed.



Geezer - that second escape is a totally valid one, although the demonstration video was technically sloppy and missing some details (from my BJJ perspective).  However it does depend on you being able to insert a frame to hold the attacker's head back for the leg hook.  If he keeps his head tight and low, then you have to transition to a different technique.  Which one depends on how he has his body and legs positioned.  I wouldn't advocate escapes that depend on attacking the eyes and throat because the guy on top has even better access to attacking your eyes and it's probably best not to give him ideas.


----------



## yak sao

The guy in the first video id doing the technique a bit different than the way I was taught. I was taught to turn my centerline toward the opponent and as he pulled me in to the headlock, our entire body wedges in, uprooting him with our forward leg as our arm wedges his head back. The guy on the video is using more arm strength it looks like to me instead of his whole body.
Also, If the opponent gets the jump on us, and is able to pull us down (bending us at the waist) we were taught to get our legs back up under us by squatting down. then we are able to turn our center toward the opponent and wedge him again with our whole body as we stand back up.


----------



## geezer

yak sao said:


> The guy in the first video id doing the technique a bit different than the way I was taught. I was taught to turn my centerline toward the opponent and as he pulled me in to the headlock, our entire body wedges in, uprooting him with our forward leg as our arm wedges his head back. The guy on the video is using more arm strength it looks like to me instead of his whole body.
> Also, If the opponent gets the jump on us, and is able to pull us down (bending us at the waist) we were taught to get our legs back up under us by squatting down. then we are able to turn our center toward the opponent and wedge him again with our whole body as we stand back up.



Sounds worth exploring. In my case the "attacker" entered off a V-step to the side with an an arm drag, which puts him at your side and sets him up to do the headlock and throw in one  strong rotating movement, and also makes it harder for the WC defender to get back facing the attacker's center. I guess I have myself to blame since I outlined the attack. Apparently I'm better at engineering my own defeat than in effectively countering. LOL

Regardless,  in discussing this scenario, all parties agreed that the best counter is, of course, the quickest and most direct, which stops the technique before it is locked-in  --i.e. punching him right in the face (or throat) as he tries to throw his arm around your neck. If he _does _get his arm behind your head, then you can bring your same side arm up behind his arm (similar to the first video) but at the same time palm-striking him in the back of the head just below the base of the skull as you continue through to grab his face and drive his head back, again _before_ he has you cinched-up tight. Then forget the fancy finish, just chain punch him down. 

This actually worked well, if you did it fast and hard, before your attacker destroys your structure. The trouble is you can't make it work if you are even a little late, or _if you pull your punches_,_ while your attacker continues to grapple you with full force_. That's always a problem with testing a striking art vs. grappling.


----------



## geezer

Tony Dismukes said:


> Geezer - that second escape is a totally valid one, although the demonstration video was technically sloppy and missing some details (from my BJJ perspective).  However it does depend on you being able to insert a frame to hold the attacker's head back for the leg hook.  *If he keeps his head tight and low, then you have to transition to a different technique.*  Which one depends on how he has his body and legs positioned.  I wouldn't advocate escapes that depend on attacking the eyes and throat because the guy on top has even better access to attacking your eyes and it's probably best not to give him ideas.



Yeah -- this is what he did (see bolded text above) ...at one point I hooked his head but he was able to use one arm to pass the leg over and slip his head under and out of it. At brief instant, when he only had one arm around my neck, I thought I would get free, but he's very strong and by that point had me pinned with his full weight of about 240. Anyway at that point my "anti-grappling" had failed and I was immersed in full grappling. So I tapped out. 

As I see it, "anti-grappling" is momentary countering to escape/counter/reverse and get back to your striking game. If it is going to work, it has to work at that initial moment your opponent tries to move the fight into the clinch. Otherwise you better be the better grappler. Actually, _that_ --training to be a really good grappler too-- would be  the ideal in my opinion, except I have badly herniated disks in my lower back and my Doc said that my brilliant plan to learn BJJ would be nuts at my age with this condition. Still, I think about it a lot....


----------



## mook jong man

geezer said:


> Mook, I used to think you were smart. Now I'm guessing that you are psychic. Yes, the attacker enters from the outside and headlocks you from the side, bending you over forwards and then punches your face. See the rather flowery and compliant version below.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9x3ACeG1gY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=4
> 
> Except, at my urging, my opponent cranked the headlock really tight, and from his own experience turned his hips sideways to cover his groin. Then he took me straight down to the floor. We don't have any mats yet. So I went with it pressing his face back and attempted to break free by hooking his head with my leg. Check out the following:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5uDTMEjdY&list=PL5A8D582A7B79EBDB&index=5
> 
> Usually this works for me, but this time my partner ducked the leg hook used his strength and weight (240lbs.) to cinch up the headlockv very tight and really crush me with his body ...and he was still holding back some. I did have access to his eyes and throat, but he's a tough old boy and wouldn't yield short of  me doing some real damage. And even if I had forced him to release, it's irrelevant. By that point, the _intended _techniques had failed.



If it's just the average garden variety type of headlock then striking straight into the groin with a palm strike or hook punch as you are bent forward will work.

But in the second video the attacker is pretty much jumping into the air and crashing down onto his victim.
There is a lot of momentum in that , so there is no doubt you will end up on the ground.

From there the main objective as you were trying to do  is to guard yourself from punches and try to get their head back as you were doing , so you can hook your leg over.

The method you use to get the head back is up to you , in some styles they will use a frame to get the head back.
In Krav Maga they will put their hand over your face with their fingers in your eyes and their thumb underneath your nose.
The fingers in the eyes you can live with buts it's no picnic , what really gets your head moving back is the thumb pushing up under your nose.

Also don't forget to try and move onto your side so he can't crush your chest with his bodyweight and mess up your breathing.


----------



## yak sao

geezer said:


> This actually worked well, if you did it fast and hard, before your attacker destroys your structure. The trouble is you can't make it work if you are even a little late, or _if you pull your punches_,_ while your attacker continues to grapple you with full force_. That's always a problem with testing a striking art vs. grappling.



So true. 
Even though we've never met, I have a good indication of the type of person that you are. You are not going to hurt a student so that you can "save face".
Had you actually unleashed what you are capable of doing then there would not have been an issue.


----------



## yak sao

If he's at your side, still wedge in with your legs allowing your whole body to occupy his space.
If the leg closer to him is "tied up"aginst his closest leg to you, then either wedge your closer leg into his rear leg (going behind him)or you can step through with the other leg (what would be considered your back leg)

Also, to clarify what I said earlier, if bent over at the waist, to regain your structure, don't think of the "good morning" weight training exercise, which is all from the waist; think of getting down under him and squatting, driving your whole body up and into him.
I've done this against some big guys who out weigh me by a lot and also against some guys with various grappling skills (judo, BJJ, catch wrestling, etc) and it's worked well.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I do not do CMA and really looking at the three initial video clips in my opinion Obasi just let Emin do his thing.  In the second one he broke out regularly and in the third he brought it or tried to dominate.  So I would have to agree that comparing the three clips and trying to determine who is better aka Emin, Kwok or Williams or Obasi for that matter is pretty hard.

However, I have seen the William Cheung and Emin Boztep video clip of the fight from the seminar.  What I see is an older man squared off against a younger guy.  The younger guy is in better shape and takes the fight to an area the older guy is unfamiliar with. (Emin was after all by all accounts a wrestler in school)  So what is interesting in this example is that there is little doubt that William Cheung was the better Wing Chun practitioner at this point in time but the altercation went to an area he was not good in and Emin was.  On a final note attribute wise Emin at that point was in far better physical shape than Cheung as well.  Which brings us to the point of my post.  You can be a better technician but...... you also better be in good shape and not so one dimensional.  Personally I feel that all martial practitioners need to make sure they are in really good shape at a level way above your average human.  Get of your butt and work out and don't make the rest of us look bad.  Just my 02.


----------



## mook jong man

yak sao said:


> If he's at your side, still wedge in with your legs allowing your whole body to occupy his space.
> If the leg closer to him is "tied up"aginst his closest leg to you, then either wedge your closer leg into his rear leg (going behind him)or you can step through with the other leg (what would be considered your back leg)
> 
> _*Also, to clarify what I said earlier, if bent over at the waist, to regain your structure, don't think of the "good morning" weight training exercise, which is all from the waist; think of getting down under him and squatting, driving your whole body up and into him.
> I've done this against some big guys who out weigh me by a lot and also against some guys with various grappling skills (judo, BJJ, catch wrestling, etc) and it's worked well.*_



I saw one of my instructors do something like that years ago.
He used the last movements from the Bil Gee form.
He just stood straight up and rotated his arms up and back like in Bil Gee and the guy was thrown right off.
I don't remember if he draped his arm over the top and put it under the guys chin or just did it from underneath the guys arms.

It was a long time ago so I can't exactly remember how he did it , but I remember being very impressed.
But I think it may have worked similar to the way you are describing , having your near leg at the back of his leg , so his leg is trapped and then just coming straight up with the Bil Gee posture so he loses balance.


----------



## mook jong man

The instructor I was taking about in the earlier post was formerly a wrestling champion in NZ.
Another one he used to do was reach behind with his hand and pinch the back of your thigh up near your butt cheek.
The pain was so excruciating that you just had to let go of the head lock.

Still with another one .
If the head lock was on and they were both pretty much still upright he would turn towards the opponent and do a simultaneous palm strike on the guys back and front , it looked like he was clapping his hands.
Might not sound like an orthodox way to generate power , but from the sound of it and the look of shock on the guys face I was glad he wasn't doing it to me.


----------



## geezer

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Get of your butt and work out and don't make the rest of us look bad. Just my 02.



Ouch. The truth hurts! LOL


----------



## mook jong man

I did this workout this afternoon
warm up
2oo punches on the wallbag.
20 medium heel kicks each side on the low section of the wallbag.

workout
3 x 30 double hand swings with 16kg kettlebell / 30 secs rest between sets.
4 X 1 min on the skipping rope at fast pace  / 30 secs rest between sets

Only a total of 7 minutes work , but when your going hard those 7 minutes seem to take forever.
Finished with 3 x 10 hanging leg raises off the chin up bar.
Then Sil Lum Tao , Chum Kiu and Bil Gee.
Walked the dogs for 40 minutes because dogs have to have their workout too.
Haven't picked up the kettlebell for a while so I am going to be feeling it tomorrow.


----------



## yak sao

mook jong man said:


> Walked the dogs for 40 minutes because dogs have to have their workout too.
> Haven't picked up the kettlebell for a while so I am going to be feeling it tomorrow.



Get the dogs a treadmill .Then they can work out alongside you.


----------



## mook jong man

yak sao said:


> Get the dogs a treadmill .Then they can work out alongside you.



I've put them on our treadmill before , one of them is ok with it , but the other one freaks out because he can't understand why he's running and doesn't seem to go anywhere.
Plus they get to see possums when we go out for a walk and that seems to be the main attraction for them.


----------



## Nabakatsu

Owww.. my upper thigh.. going to remember that one for sure..


----------



## Domino

Im late on this one but my opinion is good on him for getting in the ring first of all, I think he needs some cardio in my opinion.
With regards to chi sau, I have seen other videos of Mr Williams being disrespectful to other teachers himself, so who knows, ego gets in the way.


----------



## Argus

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Well I'll just call a spade a spade. IMO Emin is better, pure and simple. Obasi doesn't have a chance with Emin. Emin is shutting him down before it ever begins. You don't see the other two doing that.



I think you're comparing apples and oranges. 

In the first video, they're not competing. Obasi isn't trying to "fight" Emin, and he isn't trying to win; he's just letting Emin demonstrate on him and teach.

In the Randy Williams video, he's just trying to over power Williams.

Honestly though, I think you should be clear about your intentions. If you want to learn, go ahead and do Chisau. But if you just want to fight, just fight. Don't confuse one for the other.


Edit: I just noticed there were 5 more pages of posts that I didn't read...


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

Tames D said:


> My problem with Emin... He looks great in seminars. He is commanding in videos. He talks a good game. But, I still can't get out of my mind the video of him and William Cheung wrestling. What a joke that two Wing Chun Masters could not execute basic Wing Chun principles in a REAL fight that Emin provoked. Very laughable. It's hard to take Emin seriously based on that. After all, fighting is what it's all about, not seminars and produced videos. I have seen no evidence that Emin can take care of himself in a real fight.



Ok, I've just started re-reading this thread. And ya'll are being rediculous. SO a 20 year ago video is your basis for your assumption? Thats your detective work? GTFO. Emin was a WELL KNOWN Full contact fighter. 

Sounds like this thread needs a K bomb, and im here.


----------



## Tames D

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Ok, I've just started re-reading this thread. And ya'll are being rediculous. SO a 20 year ago video is your basis for your assumption? Thats your detective work? GTFO. Emin was a WELL KNOWN Full contact fighter.
> 
> Sounds like this thread needs a K bomb, and im here.



I give my honest opinion and you tell me to get the **** out? Well, show me some evidence that might change my mind. And I'm not talking about scripted, controlled seminars where he has complete control. Can you do that? I will change my mind if you can do that. In the mean time you can get the **** out. 
I left you a rep and I feel bad because I forgot to sign it. Just want you to know it's from me.
So why don't you do YOUR detective work and show me something that might change my mind.


----------



## geezer

Tames D said:


> I give my honest opinion and you tell me to get the **** out?...
> I left you a rep and I feel bad because I forgot to sign it. Just want you to know it's from me.
> So why don't you do YOUR detective work and show me something that might change my mind.



Hey Tames, (if I can jump in for a minute) in my honest opinion Emin is for real, not just for show. Even today ...and he must be in his 50s. But I can't prove it, so if you don't agree, that's your right. Giving out rep, good or bad is your right too. Whatever, but I have to say that you did the right thing posting here to take credit. I've had people give me bad rep a few times and I was OK with that. But _anonymous _bad rep really stinks.


----------



## Tames D

geezer said:


> Hey Tames, (if I can jump in for a minute) in my honest opinion Emin is for real, not just for show. Even today ...and he must be in his 50s. But I can't prove it, so if you don't agree, that's your right. Giving out rep, good or bad is your right too. Whatever, but I have to say that you did the right thing posting here to take credit. I've had people give me bad rep a few times and I was OK with that. But _anonymous _bad rep really stinks.



Thanks Geezer. I appreciate your post, I think  
I just don't like being insulted for giving my honest opinion. If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it. But my opinion of that video  is that the "fighters" in that video didn't represent fighting very well. Pretty pathetic. I know I hurt Jeff's feelings but all I'm asking is that he show me evidence that Emin can fight in a real altercation, or allow me my opinion without the insults.
Oh btw... I don't give out neg rep much. Only about 4 or 5 times ever. But I will take ownership.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

You didn't so much hurt my feelings as piss me off. I don't care about REP, I just care about my thread; Which was supposed to be people enjoying what I percieved as good WT from the three sifu's and a comparison of them with Shawn Obasi.

"A lot of people talk big-time smack about Obasi, which I hope we don't see in this thread. But reguardless, I'm just really glad to see someone from our martial family getting in the ring " .... Is what I said in the OP.

Ya'll came in here just bashing. There's a more diplomatic way of doing it than just scoffing at Emin's skill. My big problem that ya'll came in and started bashing when all the proof you want is just by going to an Emin workshop next time he's in the state and rolling with him, or if you really want; Challenging him. I'm tired of the no-balls and all talk people who can bash safely from behind their keyboard. You didn't just insult a video; You insulted a promoter of the art, a skilled practioner, and a lifetime martial artist, and in my opinion that is DESPICABLE.

You'll notice when I reference Sifu Kwok, Sifu Williams and Obasi, I use a healthy amount of respect. Even though I don't think much of their skill, I can still maintain my opinion with a certain amount of decorum. You apparently can't, and there is my problem. 

So next time you want to come into MY thread; How about you try to keep it light, because thats what I want in my threads. Just easy going discussions with EDUCATED insight or honest questions. Not a bunch of BS. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't apperciate me going into your threads and just bashing. I'm not saying anyone is perfect (and god knows i've done this myself)...

So how about we start fresh and just be nice on here, if not just send me an email and we can figure it out; Off the message board.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

Oh, and thank you for owning up to the REP thing. I do apperciate your honesty sir!

All the best,

Jeff


----------



## Tames D

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> You didn't so much hurt my feelings as piss me off. I don't care about REP, I just care about my thread; Which was supposed to be people enjoying what I percieved as good WT from the three sifu's and a comparison of them with Shawn Obasi.
> 
> "A lot of people talk big-time smack about Obasi, which I hope we don't see in this thread. But reguardless, I'm just really glad to see someone from our martial family getting in the ring " .... Is what I said in the OP.
> 
> Ya'll came in here just bashing. There's a more diplomatic way of doing it than just scoffing at Emin's skill. My big problem that ya'll came in and started bashing when all the proof you want is just by going to an Emin workshop next time he's in the state and rolling with him, or if you really want; Challenging him. I'm tired of the no-balls and all talk people who can bash safely from behind their keyboard. You didn't just insult a video; You insulted a promoter of the art, a skilled practioner, and a lifetime martial artist, and in my opinion that is DESPICABLE.
> 
> You'll notice when I reference Sifu Kwok, Sifu Williams and Obasi, I use a healthy amount of respect. Even though I don't think much of their skill, I can still maintain my opinion with a certain amount of decorum. You apparently can't, and there is my problem.
> 
> So next time you want to come into MY thread; How about you try to keep it light, because thats what I want in my threads. Just easy going discussions with EDUCATED insight or honest questions. Not a bunch of BS. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't apperciate me going into your threads and just bashing. I'm not saying anyone is perfect (and god knows i've done this myself)...
> 
> So how about we start fresh and just be nice on here, if not just send me an email and we can figure it out; Off the message board.



I have to admit that you make a good point. My evaluation of the video didn't belong in your thread, and as a result I caused a disruption. I apologize for that. I will stand by my evaluation however, but I was wrong for sidetracking and disrespecting your thread.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck

Tames D said:


> I have to admit that you make a good point. My evaluation of the video didn't belong in your thread, and as a result I caused a disruption. I apologize for that. I will stand by my evaluation however, but I was wrong for sidetracking and disrespecting your thread.



Thank you sir, I do very much apperciate it. Let's all just have good times


----------



## WahFist

Hi Geezer,

I was googling about Emin Boztepe and saw this old thread: Shawn Obasi & Emin Boztepe friendly Chi-sau

I started training WT in LA in '94 with a German buddy of mine.  Sifu Emin would come by and train with us fairly frequently.  I learned what was then the new anti-grappling components of Lat Sao directly from him.

What I don't see in the videos that you shared is a detail that Sifu drilled into us at the time--the key to the headlock defence is footwork.  There is a circle step from the outside that kicks into the aggressor's leg on his 'head lock' side.  This is what makes the straight arm (which we also learned as a shoulder lock) so disruptive to the attacker's balance. 

We also learned another aspect, Emin would grab us in a headlock and completely break our posture.   His headlock was not around the neck--it was more of a catch wrestling 'facelock' where he trapped our head and would crush our nose or face with his forearm.

We learned that when your balance has been completely broken that you can't use the inside circle step.  Instead,  we were taught to drop our hips and turn toward the attacker (with our outside leg now in front of our attacker) as we used the seeking arm to disrupt his balance.  As we regained posture, then we would use circle step to disrupt his leg that was closest.

Since then I started practising BJJ, but still, I prefer the WT headlock defence to my failsafe BJJ go to the ground methods.

I realize this advice is five years late, but I thought you might appreciate as I know these techniques were developed by Emin and he is out on his own now.

-WahFist


----------



## geezer

_WahFist _-- Welcome to MartialTalk! Thanks for the input. I hope you hang around and continue to contribute. 

BTW are you still actively training WT?


----------



## wingchun100

mook jong man said:


> The Shaun Obasi dude tends to lean a bit so that would make him susceptible to being pivoted.



I have heard this about him too, although I have never met or done Chi Sao with him.


----------



## paitingman

I am pretty sure there is (or used to be) a video of Shawn Obasi talking about him chi saoing with Boztepe and explaining why he was grunting like that or something haha. I think I remember him talking about having a hurt back and just trying to be a good demo partner at the seminar. Obviously a pretty different attitude than with Williams.


----------



## paitingman

Here it is!
The video's long, but he actually comments on each chi sao video in this thread. It's just cool to get his perspective and he has something good to say about each sifu.


----------



## wingchun100

paitingman said:


> I am pretty sure there is (or used to be) a video of Shawn Obasi talking about him chi saoing with Boztepe and explaining why he was grunting like that or something haha. I think I remember him talking about having a hurt back and just trying to be a good demo partner at the seminar. Obviously a pretty different attitude than with Williams.



Yeah, the grunts were a little over the top. I was wondering if there was a reason for it.


----------



## Anarax

I'm unsure if this is flirting with fraud busting territory


paitingman said:


> Here it is!
> The video's long, but he actually comments on each chi sao video in this thread. It's just cool to get his perspective and he has something good to say about each sifu.



I've seen a lot of Shawn's videos and more times than not he comes off as a bully with something to prove. Years ago a WC instructor gave some constructive criticism on facebook about his Chi Sao. Shawn's response was going to the guys school and record him challenging him. Shawn challenges the instructor to......... "Chi Sao". Shawn muscles his way through it trying to overpower the guy and show him up. After the exchange Shawn uploads a video bragging about how much stronger and better he was than the WC instructor. Here's the video





Here's him bragging





Here's another video that shows his disrespect


----------



## paitingman

Anarax said:


> I'm unsure if this is flirting with fraud busting territory
> 
> 
> I've seen a lot of Shawn's videos and more times than not he comes off as a bully with something to prove. Years ago a WC instructor gave some constructive criticism on facebook about his Chi Sao. Shawn's response was going to the guys school and record him challenging him. Shawn challenges the instructor to......... "Chi Sao". Shawn muscles his way through it trying to overpower the guy and show him up. After the exchange Shawn uploads a video bragging about how much stronger and better he was than the WC instructor. Here's the video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's him bragging
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another video that shows his disrespect


idk what this has to do with my post or the chi sao videos we were discussing in this thread


----------



## paitingman

Anarax said:


> I'm unsure if this is flirting with fraud busting territory
> 
> 
> I've seen a lot of Shawn's videos and more times than not he comes off as a bully with something to prove. Years ago a WC instructor gave some constructive criticism on facebook about his Chi Sao. Shawn's response was going to the guys school and record him challenging him. Shawn challenges the instructor to......... "Chi Sao". Shawn muscles his way through it trying to overpower the guy and show him up. After the exchange Shawn uploads a video bragging about how much stronger and better he was than the WC instructor. Here's the video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's him bragging
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another video that shows his disrespect


However, I can't really argue too much with the videos you shared and points you raised haha. I've seen those clips and thought something similar as well. 
I just question their relevance right here.


----------



## Anarax

paitingman said:


> However, I can't really argue too much with the videos you shared and points you raised haha. I've seen those clips and thought something similar as well.
> I just question their relevance right here.



The thread has both "Shawn Obasi" and "Chi-Sau" in the title, thus posting videos of Shawn and his Chi Sau isn't irrelevant. He himself even addresses what happened between him and Randy Williams, thus posting other videos(from his own Youtube Channel) of that behavior is also relevant.


----------



## paitingman

Anarax said:


> The thread has both "Shawn Obasi" and "Chi-Sau" in the title, thus posting videos of Shawn and his Chi Sau isn't irrelevant. He himself even addresses what happened between him and Randy Williams, thus posting other videos(from his own Youtube Channel) of that behavior is also relevant.


Of course, we all see what you're saying. I just don't see the relevance in the light, friendly, lets-keep-away-from-bashing discussion the OP reminded us he was trying to have in this thread just a few posts up from ours


----------



## Anarax

paitingman said:


> Of course, we all see what you're saying. I just don't see the relevance in the light, friendly, lets-keep-away-from-bashing discussion the OP reminded us he was trying to have in this thread just a few posts up from ours



That's how online forums work. If there's a topic you're familiar with then you share what you know, it's not about maintaining the "feelings" of a thread as long as you're respectful. Posting videos that show Shawn's poor attitude is relevant, nor is it "bashing" him. When you post something be prepared for others to disagree with you or at the very least give a different opinion.


----------



## wingchun100

I have never understood why they asked Shawn to do kickboxing moves in that M1 video.


----------



## Anarax

wingchun100 said:


> I have never understood why they asked Shawn to do kickboxing moves in that M1 video.



The only move he did in the video was a Roundhouse kick, I'm unsure if that's what Shawn's "kickboxing" comment was referring to though. The roundhouse kick is in numerous WC systems.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Obasi Rolling with Emin,


Not sure if it's been said already but Obasi is too tense which is why he's having difficulty in dealing with the redirection of his guard and sensing the openings.  His entire body is pulled forward and off balance because he was too tense.


----------



## Martial D

What a weird thread. In every video the large African American gentleman establishes that he is objectively bad at chi sau. Why are there so many videos of him doing it with legit WC people?

*Confused*


----------



## KPM

*I've seen a lot of Shawn's videos and more times than not he comes off as a bully with something to prove. Years ago a WC instructor gave some constructive criticism on facebook about his Chi Sao. Shawn's response was going to the guys school and record him challenging him. Shawn challenges the instructor to......... "Chi Sao". Shawn muscles his way through it trying to overpower the guy and show him up. After the exchange Shawn uploads a video bragging about how much stronger and better he was than the WC instructor. *

---A little more background is needed on this one!  Kevin Gledhill is a WSLVT guy.  He and small group of fellow WSLVT guys used to post all the time on the KFO forum.   They were always on about how WSLVT was so much better then everyone else.  That everyone else was doing a "broken" version of Wing Chun.   It was just like LFT and Guy B. used to do here, but even worse!  They were often very abrasive and insulting.  The moderators at KFO refused to do anything about it.  So it wasn't exactly "constructive" criticism that Kevin was giving.  Obasi went to NY to essentially call Kevin out on all his trash talk.  He handled Kevin pretty easily in that video as anyone can see.   Later on Kevin tried to claim he thought it was just going to be a "friendly" roll and so he was not really trying to match Obasi or "win".   Which....after all his trash talking and bull shixxing in the forum, no one believed!  He caught all kinds of hell in the forum from people he had been so nasty too when that video became public that he quit the forum and disappeared.  Not saying that Obasi is any kind of wiz at Chi Sau.  Just saying that Kevin Gledhill turned out to NOT be the wiz he  wanted everyone to believe he was!  ;-)


----------



## paitingman

Anarax said:


> That's how online forums work. If there's a topic you're familiar with then you share what you know, it's not about maintaining the "feelings" of a thread as long as you're respectful. Posting videos that show Shawn's poor attitude is relevant, nor is it "bashing" him. When you post something be prepared for others to disagree with you or at the very least give a different opinion.



You're the one who said your post may be nearing fraud busting. I don't actually hold a different opinion on Obasi than you appear to have. I also just gave my opinion that yeah your post might not be fitting the OPs intended discussion.


----------



## paitingman

I do find it funny with Obasi and others though. Sometimes you see him doing chi sao "exercise" sort of like with the Boztepe. And other times you see him doing the type of chi sao you see in the Randy Williams clip or the Kevin Gledhill video. 
The response to criticism questioning this kind of "chi sao" is usually something like "these guys don't know how to handle pressure" or "they can't fight" or something to that end, but at the same time there's clips of you doing and understanding chi sao as an exercise...


----------



## wingchun100

Anarax said:


> The only move he did in the video was a Roundhouse kick, I'm unsure if that's what Shawn's "kickboxing" comment was referring to though. The roundhouse kick is in numerous WC systems.



Yes, but not all. At the Ip Ching school I attended, we were never shown roundhouse kicks. I also trained for a bit with someone from Ip Chun, and I said something like, "I don't see why Wing Chun can't incorporate LOW roundhouse kicks." That was met with stares of the hairy eyeball variety. LOL


----------



## Martial D

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, but not all. At the Ip Ching school I attended, we were never shown roundhouse kicks. I also trained for a bit with someone from Ip Chun, and I said something like, "I don't see why Wing Chun can't incorporate LOW roundhouse kicks." That was met with stares of the hairy eyeball variety. LOL


There are three kicks in the WC syllabus I got. Round kick, oblique kick and front kick. Never above the waist.


----------



## Anarax

KPM said:


> *I've seen a lot of Shawn's videos and more times than not he comes off as a bully with something to prove. Years ago a WC instructor gave some constructive criticism on facebook about his Chi Sao. Shawn's response was going to the guys school and record him challenging him. Shawn challenges the instructor to......... "Chi Sao". Shawn muscles his way through it trying to overpower the guy and show him up. After the exchange Shawn uploads a video bragging about how much stronger and better he was than the WC instructor. *
> 
> ---A little more background is needed on this one!  Kevin Gledhill is a WSLVT guy.  He and small group of fellow WSLVT guys used to post all the time on the KFO forum.   They were always on about how WSLVT was so much better then everyone else.  That everyone else was doing a "broken" version of Wing Chun.   It was just like LFT and Guy B. used to do here, but even worse!  They were often very abrasive and insulting.  The moderators at KFO refused to do anything about it.  So it wasn't exactly "constructive" criticism that Kevin was giving.  Obasi went to NY to essentially call Kevin out on all his trash talk.  He handled Kevin pretty easily in that video as anyone can see.   Later on Kevin tried to claim he thought it was just going to be a "friendly" roll and so he was not really trying to match Obasi or "win".   Which....after all his trash talking and bull shixxing in the forum, no one believed!  He caught all kinds of hell in the forum from people he had been so nasty too when that video became public that he quit the forum and disappeared.  Not saying that Obasi is any kind of wiz at Chi Sau.  Just saying that Kevin Gledhill turned out to NOT be the wiz he  wanted everyone to believe he was!  ;-)



Interesting. Do you have a link to the thread and comments Kevin made? I tried searching for the exact thread Shawn was referring to, but I couldn't find anything. Thus I could only go off Shawn's account of events. I find it odd that Shawn did such a horrible job of explaining the situation. He himself says that Kevin only criticized his root and structure, which isn't completely unfounded. 

Shawn then says " I'm not really concerned what he said" then says how if someone talks about him he's going to go "check him". I'm not saying nor did I say Kevin is innocent in all of this, but it was more so Shawn's attitude that I was criticizing. The other video I embedded also shows his bad attitude.

I've never met Kevin nor have any affiliation with him, thus I have no skin in the game. IMO, I saw very little Chi Sau in the video. I see one person doing more so play fighting(Shawn) and another person trying to do Chi Sau(Kevin). Shawn throwing knees, dropping back into a sparring stance, getting shots in then retreating, pushing so hard forward to the point he's off balance, grabbing Kevin's arms in place for more than half the video, I think are all of indicative of more than a sensitivity drill. If that's how your lineage does Chi Sau then that's fine, but I don't think Kevin was expecting that method when Shawn challenged him to Chi Sau.  

I appreciate you giving more info on the history between him and Kevin, but I still don't agree with how Shawn handled that situation.


----------



## Anarax

paitingman said:


> You're the one who said your post may be nearing fraud busting.



That was addressing the website administrators, Martial Talk has an anti-fraud busting policy. Obviously my comment didn't qualify or they would have intervened by now.


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## Anarax

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, but not all. At the Ip Ching school I attended, we were never shown roundhouse kicks. I also trained for a bit with someone from Ip Chun, and I said something like, "I don't see why Wing Chun can't incorporate LOW roundhouse kicks." That was met with stares of the hairy eyeball variety. LOL



Yes, I understand that there are some WC systems that don't round kicks, but there are a lot that do. Both WC systems I've studied and the WC seminars I went to all have round kicks. Many traditional systems have some variation of round kicks, I think Shawn was just embarrassed that he fell down then trivializing it "I've never studied kickboxing/Muay Thai."


----------



## wingchun100

Anarax said:


> Yes, I understand that there are some WC systems that don't round kicks, but there are a lot that do. Both WC systems I've studied and the WC seminars I went to all have round kicks. Many traditional systems have some variation of round kicks, I think Shawn was just embarrassed that he fell down then trivializing it "I've never studied kickboxing/Muay Thai."



Well, yeah, I would be embarrassed too, to go into that ring saying, "I am a good enough martial artist to compete." and then falling down.


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## KPM

Anarax said:


> That was addressing the website administrators, Martial Talk has an anti-fraud busting policy. Obviously my comment didn't qualify or they would have intervened by now.



If they are paying attention.  Often nothing happens unless somebody complains to them and reports it.


----------



## KPM

*Interesting. Do you have a link to the thread and comments Kevin made? I tried searching for the exact thread Shawn was referring to, but I couldn't find anything. Thus I could only go off Shawn's account of events. I find it odd that Shawn did such a horrible job of explaining the situation. He himself says that Kevin only criticized his root and structure, which isn't completely unfounded. *

---That was a long time ago!  I'd have to do a lot of  searching as well.  Kevin may not have addressed Obasi directly in the KFO forum.  But I'm pretty sure Obasi was aware of his reputation for trash-talking everyone else's Wing Chun in that forum.  

*but it was more so Shawn's attitude that I was criticizing. The other video I embedded also shows his bad attitude.*

---No problem.  I'm not trying to defend or justify Obasi's behavior in any way!  Just wanted to make sure that Kevin Gledhill wasn't portrayed as some kind of innocent victim here!   

*but I don't think Kevin was expecting that method when Shawn challenged him to Chi Sau.  *

---First, Kevin was a trash-talker, he should very well expect that anyone that shows up to Chi Sau with him knows that and he should expect to be "pressed" or "challenged" a bit.  If you are going to be an A-hole in public discourse, then you darn well better expect that people are going to be A-holes right back at you in person!   Second, the minute it became apparent that Obasi had something in mind other than a "friendly roll" Kevin should have "stepped up his game" and proven that all of his WSLVT training was so much better than Obasi's training (as he had been saying).  He should have simply met the amount of resistance and challenge he was feeling and responded in kind.  But he didn't.  And he KNEW the camera was rolling!   For someone with a mouth as big as Kevin's, he did NOT back up all his talking in the video when he had the chance.   For those here in the know....that would be like someone providing a video of LFJ in which he looked like some beginner in Wing Chun after all the  talking he has done here.


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## Anarax

KPM said:


> No problem. I'm not trying to defend or justify Obasi's behavior in any way! Just wanted to make sure that Kevin Gledhill wasn't portrayed as some kind of innocent victim here!


I wasn't interpreting your post as a defense for Shawn. You were just providing additional info on their history. 



KPM said:


> First, Kevin was a trash-talker, he should very well expect that anyone that shows up to Chi Sau with him knows that and he should expect to be "pressed" or "challenged" a bit. If you are going to be an A-hole in public discourse, then you darn well better expect that people are going to be A-holes right back at you in person! Second, the minute it became apparent that Obasi had something in mind other than a "friendly roll" Kevin should have "stepped up his game" and proven that all of his WSLVT training was so much better than Obasi's training (as he had been saying). He should have simply met the amount of resistance and challenge he was feeling and responded in kind. But he didn't. And he KNEW the camera was rolling! For someone with a mouth as big as Kevin's, he did NOT back up all his talking in the video when he had the chance. For those here in the know....that would be like someone providing a video of LFJ in which he looked like some beginner in Wing Chun after all the talking he has done here.



I can't say exactly how I feel about Kevin considering I haven't seen the exact posts. 

Overall I find the idea of showing up to someone's MA school and challenging them over an online post to be silly. I especially find it absurd that he challenges Kevin to a drill. Some people simply adhere to the rules more closely than others when doing drills and other forms of training. Kevin even said in the end "this isn't Chi Sau" and looked confused. I'm not defending Kevin, but Shawn's approach is very petty and in the end doesn't really prove anything.


----------



## KPM

*Overall I find the idea of showing up to someone's MA school and challenging them over an online post to be silly. I especially find it absurd that he challenges Kevin to a drill. Some people simply adhere to the rules more closely than others when doing drills and other forms of training. Kevin even said in the end "this isn't Chi Sau" and looked confused. I'm not defending Kevin, but Shawn's approach is very petty and in the end doesn't really prove anything*.

---Well, "free" Chi Sau is short of a fight.  I would call what they were doing in that video "Gor Sau", which plenty of people do as part of Chi Sau training.  And if Obasi had really given Kevin a beat down rather then just pressing him in Chi Sau, plenty of people would have cheered!    And "free" Chi Sau is part of the training in any Wing Chun lineage so it was silly of Kevin to say "this isn't Chi Sau."   LOTS of video is out there of Phillip Bayer doing his thing.  It is always Chi Sau....and not always "cooperative" Chi Sau.  There is plenty of footage of him blasting away at a partner and chasing them back into a wall.  So why couldn't Kevin do that to Shawn?  Why couldn't he totally dominate and land shots freely as Phillip Bayer does in his seminar footage if WSLVT is so much superior to Shawn Obasi's Wing Chun?  It is not silly to go to someone in person and expect them to back up their trash talking after they have spent so much time on-line insulting and denigrating other Wing Chun people and their lineages.  The only way to get to a real "put up or shut up" point is in person!   And after this encounter, Kevin Gledhill "shut up" and left the forum.   And Obasi didn't "ambush him", Obasi didn't actually hurt him.  Obasi simply embarrassed him.  And he had it coming!  I'm not defending Shawn, but Kevin was an A-hole and it was only a matter of time before someone made him "put up or shut up."  And it certainly did prove something!  It proved that Kevin was a trash-talker and when the chips were down he wasn't as good as he wanted everyone to think!  Think of the footage that Obasi has put up...who has he Chi Sau'd with?  People with reputations in Wing Chun....Kwok, Boztepe, Williams.  So why Gledhill?   It was because Gledhill had this reputation for representing Bayer's version of WSLVT in the US and for trash-talking and insulting everyone else.


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## wingchun100

I just thought of a great way to meet Shawn Obasi...


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## Anarax

KPM said:


> Well, "free" Chi Sau is short of a fight. I would call what they were doing in that video "Gor Sau", which plenty of people do as part of Chi Sau training.


To a reasonable degree I understand what you're saying. It's the idea of using Chi Sau as a means to "check" someone is what I disagree with. 



KPM said:


> And if Obasi had really given Kevin a beat down rather then just pressing him in Chi Sau, plenty of people would have cheered!


Is Kevin that hated in the WC community? That bad that people would enjoy seeing him keep seriously injured?



KPM said:


> LOTS of video is out there of Phillip Bayer doing his thing. It is always Chi Sau....and not always "cooperative" Chi Sau.There is plenty of footage of him blasting away at a partner and chasing them back into a wall. So why couldn't Kevin do that to Shawn? Why couldn't he totally dominate and land shots freely as Phillip Bayer does in his seminar footage if WSLVT is so much superior to Shawn Obasi's Wing Chun?


I understand, but Sifu Bayer is usually doing this at seminars and with his students. I never heard of Sifu Bayer going to someone's WC school and challenging them to Chi Sau to show them up. The intentions and dynamics are completely different. There is also a relative understanding that they're doing Chi Sau when Sifu Bayer and his partner are doing it. I've yet to see Sifu Bayer throw nor have to counter flying knees in Chi Sau.



KPM said:


> It is not silly to go to someone in person and expect them to back up their trash talking after they have spent so much time on-line insulting and denigrating other Wing Chun people and their lineages. The only way to get to a real "put up or shut up" point is in person! And after this encounter, Kevin Gledhill "shut up" and left the forum.


If someone comes to your school and challenges you that's one thing, it's another when you seek out conflicts. If Shawn feels the need to challenge anyone and everyone who criticizes his Chi Sau then that's on him. It's petty and honesty seems quite childish. I would have to see Kevin's posts before I can judge him. Shawn himself said he criticized his root and structure. I googled Kevin and I couldn't find anything relating to his insulting comments.



KPM said:


> And it certainly did prove something! It proved that Kevin was a trash-talker and when the chips were down he wasn't as good as he wanted everyone to think!


Did it? I see someone with bad "Chi Sau" trying desperately to prove he has good Chi Sau by not doing Chi Sau. Can you honestly watch that video and say Shawn has great structure and a strong root? If not, did he prove his point?     



KPM said:


> Think of the footage that Obasi has put up...who has he Chi Sau'd with? People with reputations in Wing Chun....Kwok, Boztepe, Williams. So why Gledhill? It was because Gledhill had this reputation for representing Bayer's version of WSLVT in the US and for trash-talking and insulting everyone else


I understand, his Chi Sau with the masters is completely different than with Kevin. His energy and intentions are entirely different. It's similar with his Chi Sau with Randy Williams, he had something to prove thus his intentions were different. Shawn has 2 different versions of Chi Sau, drill-version or something to prove version.


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## Anarax

But then again, Shawn's approach worked for Jay and Silent Bob. Or is it Jay and Silent Bob's approach worked for Shawn?


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## KPM

*Did it? I see someone with bad "Chi Sau" trying desperately to prove he has good Chi Sau by not doing Chi Sau. Can you honestly watch that video and say Shawn has great structure and a strong root? If not, did he prove his point?  *

---Look.  This is not difficult.  Chi Sau most certainly includes a "non-cooperative" phase....Gor Sau.  And it isn't hard to tell when someone has something more than just a friendly cooperative roll in mind.  And someone that has trash talked as much as Kevin Gledhill had about how superior WSLVT was to everything else should have had no problem sensing that and stepping up his game.  But he didn't.  So yes, that certainly proved something.  If you think Obasi's skills were not good, then what does that say about Kevin Gledhill's skills when Obasi handled him so easily? Again, I'm not defending Obasi's  actions.  But you certainly are coming across as defending Kevin Gledhill after everything I've told you about him.


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## Anarax

KPM said:


> And someone that has trash talked as much as Kevin Gledhill had about how superior WSLVT was to everything else should have had no problem sensing that and stepping up his game.


The devil is in the details. I can't speak about Kevin's comments for I haven't seen them myself. There's nothing on Google about Kevin's comments that I can find.



KPM said:


> So yes, that certainly proved something. If you think Obasi's skills were not good, then what does that say about Kevin Gledhill's skills when Obasi handled him so easily?


It says that someone who is going 100% in "Chi Sau" can move someone else who is limiting their movements to the drill. Shawn was shoving so hard he almost feel over because of his poor balance. Kevin critiquing Shawn's structure and root isn't unfounded. Shawn approaches it as "if I beat him his opinion is invalid". It's the old tactic of attacking the person instead of addressing what they say. Opposed to Shawn stepping back and analyzing his own structure and root.   



KPM said:


> But you certainly are coming across as defending Kevin Gledhill after everything I've told you about him.


I'm not defending Kevin. However, I can't judge a man for comments that he supposedly made without seeing them. There's very little info on Kevin thus I can't speak of his behavior. Shawn on the other hand has posted numerous videos that are consistent with his behavior in the video with Kevin. Meaning, there's more information to go on to establish a pattern of behavior with Shawn.

In summary I see no excuse for Shawn's behavior. He's hates criticism and threw a temper tantrum when the fight promoter respectfully told him he wasn't letting him in(M1 Video). I stand by my comment that he's a bully with something to prove. If you find his behavior acceptable then that's fine, but I don't. I think his type of egotistical mentality is hurting Martial Arts.


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## Nobody Important

Reading through this thread gave me a migraine, lol.

So I'm going to add my 2 cents.

Intentions aside, from either party involved, what constitutes good Chi Sau let alone Chi Sau in general? In my understanding it can be many things, depending on the agreed "terms" of the engagement. Should Chi Sau be confined to the pre-defined parameters of the platform it's being conducted on, or, can change, variation and alteration of the platform be included and it still be considered Chi Sau? Isn't one of the maxims "If there is no bridge, create a bridge, then destroy the bridge" and another "When the hands break free, rush forward"? Who's rules state that Chi Sau practice has to be performed in a certain manner, such as "No going outside the platform", "No using muscle strength" or "No heavy pressure", "It's not a competition" etc? Without knowing the agreed upon, or lack thereof, rules who is to say anyone is doing the "Chi Sau" wrong?

The moment you challenge someone, it is no longer just Chi Sau. Chi Sau is a concept taught through various platforms, its a collective term. For example, if you challenge me to "Chi Sau" and you assume the Rolling Hands platform, Im not reciprocating, Im choosing a platform Im more comfortable with, like Circling Hands. If you insist on Rolling Hands I'm assuming your intentions are to prove how much better you are than me. Then it isnt Chi Sau its a fight, expect anything cause I'm coming at you to win.

The very nature of the Chi Sau exercise is competition, to understand how pressure and strength are used and how to effectively counter those forces via sensitivity, pressure, strength, endurance etc. It doesnt mean that youre trying to take someones head off, but at the same time, real pressure is needed to see whether or not something is going to do work as advertised under real world conditions.

In an altercation your advisory isn't going to give you the courtesy of fighting to your strengths, they will be fighting to theirs. You have to deal with it as effectively as you can. If this means muscling your way through, grabbing, pulling, breaking free, punching etc. who's to say that's "Wrong" that's not "Chi Sau"?

The whole idea that not using any strength, staying within a particular plaform, not grabbing or muscling is rediculous and counterproductive IMO to how a real fight is conducted. While it may be true that Chi Sau Isn't fighting, this doesn't mean it shouldn't emulate real world interaction. Your opponent will not dumb down their aggression, strength or strategy to cater to your comfort level and skill set. Varied pressure is required to make Chi Sau an effective exercise in understanding the dynamics involved in an altercation.

Chi Sau has various platforms and intensity levels, these teach different aspects about things like recovery, sensitivity, pressure, strength, neutralization, escape etc. It, IMO, cannot be confined to a singular platform. Some people are really good at Rolling Hands, some at Circling Hands some at Push Hands (Yes, some branches use this platform) others at Separate Hands. When combined they create a sphere of possible movement. All teach certain aspects, but one alone does not teach them all, and all are needed to understand how the concept of Chi Sau can be utilized.

So when I see these so called "Chi Sau" matches and people trying to justify this or that, condemn this or that and make comments like that person's Wing Chun is poor, I laugh. It isn't a realistic interpretation of any physical encounter and definately not the purpose of "Chi Sau" let alone a litmus to ones physical prowess in a realistic fight scenario. It's a platforms based d!ck measuring contest. The ritual is antiquated and potentially dangerous to the adept studying it as an interpretation of fighting, because it is a false representation of how an actual fight is really conducted.

Why don't y'all just spar? It's way more productive, will give accurate measurements as to where you are in your training and definitively prove whom bested whom. Leave Chi Sau on the practice floor where it belongs with all the other drills.

Rant over.


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## KPM

^^^^^^  To further your point.....here is a post that Mario Poljak made recently in the FB forum:

ABOUT CHI SAU

They was a several topics about chi sau...what is chi sau??
Isn't chi sau "the heart of Wing Chun Kuen"??
Yes, it could be said that is the case depending on your understanding or view point...so what is chi sau...method of techniques training or method of fighting or method of training various body mechanics in wing chun with partner?? when someone say that chi sau will not save you in a real fight, need to say that method of the chi sau that nearly everyone is familiar with, which is actually called Puhn/Poon Sau or rolling with the hands with exchange of some techniques with partner 
is very limited chi sau method. We are dealing with only three techniques here (Tan Sau, Bong Sau, and Fuk Sau), and we are standing in a static position, and we exchange in such a position few more techniques and punches what can be limited in practical usage especially under the pressure...But in the manner of different body mechanics, actually have many forms of chi sau. So many, in fact, that can't even list them all.
Here are a few of the versions of chi sau in no particular order and few words about different layers/levels in chi sau and their chinese names...it is hard to say what can be different layers in chi sau, but under this term we can consider different method of practice and training in chi sau....different levels in chi sau we can apply only on understanding of body and motion mechanics and how much is someone trained in chi sau....here is the list of different methods of training/layers of chi sau with chinese names....
Poon Sau - drilling the basic double arm rolling mechanics of the Tan sau, Bong sau, and Fuk Sau.
Bai Ying Chi Sau - Irregular structure sticking hands(here is meaning on loosing the balance and regain lost balance with body mechanics)..
Bong An Chi Sau - Blindfolded sticky hands
Baat Sin Choi Chi Sau - 8 Immortals table sticky hands for demonstrations
Chi Gok Chi Sau / Ji Gok Chi Sau / Gee Gok Chi Sau - Light sticky hands
Chi Sau Chi Gerk - Sticking hands with sticking legs exercise
Dan Chi Sau - Single sticking hands exercise
Gor Dan Chi Sau - Attacks in single sticky hands
Gu Deng Chi Sau - Sitting sticky hands
Gung Lik Chi Sau - Heavy sticky hands to develop power--training exercise for developing power controling...
Haan Kiu Chi Sau - Walking on the bridge chi sau
Joi Yin Chi Sau - Following the shadow in chi sau; a type of chasing chi sau with lot of different stepping motions and moving in all directions...
Kum La/Qin Na Chi Sau - Joint locking techniques applied in chi sau
Lay Wai Chi Sau - Leaving the gap sticky hands
Look Sau/Luk Sau/Gung Lik Chi Sau - Heavy sticky hands like combat exercise..
Lut Sau Chi Sau - Attacking from man sau position and immediately going into sticky hands
Mah Bo Chi Sau - Moving sticking hands
Man Sau Chi Sau - Asking hand within sticky hands...sticking hands only with man sau movement...one pracitioner make punches and other make man sau movement only while sticiking opponent's hands....
San Sau Chi Sau - Slow attacks in sticky hands
Seung Chi Sau - Double sticky hands exercise
Seung Yan Chi Sau - Double sticky hands with three people
Seung Yan Dan Chi Sau - Single sticky hands with three people
Seung Yan Jou Wai Chi Sau - Moving sticky hands with three people
Sor Sau Chi Sau - Trapping sticky hands
Toi Dit Chi Sau - Takedowns in chi sau
So, what is chi sau again?? The answer is; it depends on the chi sau what someone train....
Can training chi sau help you survive in a real fight?? Yes, but only if you understand the whole story of what chi sau is.
If you think, standing still and rolling tan/bong/fuk with exchange of few punches with partner, is going to somehow magically defeat a real opponent, than you are in a wrong idea about body mechanics and fighting body abilities...
If you already understood that there are many forms of chi sau, and that it is a critical part of Wing Chun training, what train various body mechanics what you can use on best way in fight, than you understand your body abilities and your fighting abilities...
The primary training tool for pratical usage is Look Sau, which is one of the many forms of chi sau. If used properly, you can find that look sau can be effective tool for training people to become truly effective fighters in a much shorter time span than other available options. It is far more dynamic and can include all techniques. You are learning proper structure, footwork, center line and central/combat plane theory and application, sensitivity and relaxation under stress, real time problem solving, techniques, situational awareness, and more, all at the same time. If done properly it is not so overwhelming as one might think, yet the rewards are great.
So will chi sau save you in a fight??
That depends on which chi saus you are referring to.
They all have their purposes in training excellence, just be aware that there is much more to "chi sau" than you may realize.


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## LFJ

This again... 



Anarax said:


> I especially find it absurd that he challenges Kevin to a drill.



That would be absurd, and it is absurd to think that’s what happened.

“Competitive _chi-sau_” is an absurd thought in the VT Kevin does, and is not something he would ever engage in.

In reality, Kevin had been sharing some drills with Shawn, explaining his style. Then it came Shawn’s turn to show his.

Hence, Kevin was not even attempting to counterattack, and was just allowing Shawn to do his thing.

Shawn then triumphantly posted the footage as a “challenge”, and people like KPM, who had had their egos bruised by Kevin, jumped all over it, and they ignore the truth of the situation because it feels better to have had a “win”, as embarrassing a win it is to claim.



> Kevin even said in the end "this isn't Chi Sau" and looked confused.



He said “this isn’t *our* _chi-sau_”, contrasting their approaches, since they had only been taking turns to show the other person how they do things.

KPM still argues that Kevin should have sensed Shawn’s intentions and “stepped it up” against him, essentially turning _chi-sau_ into a fight, which is silly and again, not something Kevin would ever engage in. He was right to just stop.

I would have responded in much the same way as Kevin, only stopping it much sooner, but Kevin was respectfully giving Shawn his turn.

The whole thing is really as simple as that. Those who ignore the facts of the situation and continue to dishonesty treat this as some sort of challenge or proof of anything to do with fighting skill are doing so to spite Kevin for his previously abrasive posting style.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> KPM still argues that Kevin should have sensed Shawn’s intentions and “stepped it up” against him, essentially turning _chi-sau_ into a fight, which is silly and again, not something Kevin would ever engage in. He was right to just stop.



Well, welcome back LFJ! 

Given that Kevin's style is WSLPBVT, and that in nearly every video posted of PB he is doing Chi Sau that is not just a simple cooperative roll.....but rather a video of him blasting his partner and often chasing him back into a wall....why is it that Kevin was unable to do the same kind of thing with Shawn? 

Bayer actually blasted Obasi in this one.  Why didn't Kevin do that?






Bayer bounces these guys all over the place.  Why didn't Kevin do this to Shawn?






And while no one is trying to hurt anyone here, I think there is certainly a "competitive" element involved.







So if Kevin was as good as he made himself out to be, and WSLPBVT was so superior to everyone else's Wing Chun as he made it out to be, why was it that Obasi handled him so easily and he couldn't do to Obasi what Bayer is able to do in each of the videos above?    No, in reality, Kevin had been running his mouth and insulting many people and when it came down to it couldn't back up what he had been saying.   I'm pretty sure much the same thing would happen with you, that is if you ever had the guts to actually let someone video you!


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## LFJ

KPM said:


> why is it that Kevin was unable to do the same kind of thing with Shawn?



You assume inability, while Kevin did not even attempt to interrupt Shawn while he was showing his method. That’s called respect. It would be different if an unsuccessful attempt had been made.

_



			Bayer actually blasted Obasi in this one.  Why didn't Kevin do that?
		
Click to expand...

_
Shawn was attending a seminar and being instructed. It was not a match, and not what Kevin and Shawn were doing.



> Bayer bounces these guys all over the place.  Why didn't Kevin do this to Shawn?



It was Shawn’s turn to show his method. You keep ignoring that. Kevin offered him his arms to roll with, allowing Shawn to do his thing, and nothing more. If someone wants to show you how they do a drill and you purposely don’t play along, that would be quite disrespectful.



> And while no one is trying to hurt anyone here, I think there is certainly a "competitive" element involved.



That is your misconception, having never studied WSLVT.



> No, in reality, Kevin had been running his mouth and insulting many people and when it came down to it couldn't back up what he had been saying.



Just like I said, ignoring the facts and trying to turn this into something it’s not clearly comes down to spiting Kevin for past grievances.



> I'm pretty sure much the same thing would happen with you, that is if you ever had the guts to actually let someone video you!



I’m back on the west coast. Come at me, bro!  I’ll _chi-sau_ battle you to the death, homie...


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## dudewingchun

LFJ said:


> You assume inability, while Kevin did not even attempt to interrupt Shawn while he was showing his method. That’s called respect. It would be different if an unsuccessful attempt had been made.
> 
> 
> 
> Shawn was attending a seminar and being instructed. It was not a match, and not what Kevin and Shawn were doing.
> 
> 
> 
> It was Shawn’s turn to show his method. You keep ignoring that. Kevin offered him his arms to roll with, allowing Shawn to do his thing, and nothing more. If someone wants to show you how they do a drill and you purposely don’t play along, that would be quite disrespectful.
> 
> 
> 
> That is your misconception, having never studied WSLVT.
> 
> 
> 
> Just like I said, ignoring the facts and trying to turn this into something it’s not clearly comes down to spiting Kevin for past grievances.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m back on the west coast. Come at me, bro!  I’ll _chi-sau_ battle you to the death, homie...



Excuses. 
Kevin talked himself up a lot then looked bad.


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## LFJ

dudewingchun said:


> Excuses.
> Kevin talked himself up a lot then looked bad.



Looked bad at what?

He was playing Shawn’s demo dummy, allowing Shawn to show his thing. What exactly was he supposed to look good at?


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## Anarax

Many martial art drills have levels of advancement once the student progresses to a certain point. Depending on the purpose of the drill, it can have pressure, aliveness and even resistance. The key question is what is the drill for? There are MA drills that are done with full resistance, conditioning drills done at full speed and takedown defense drills done with full force. Students must develop a rudimentary understanding of the techniques, form and purpose of these drills before going all in when practicing them. *However*, there are other drills that aren't meant to be done with full resistance nor "free-play". There are drills that develop sensitivity, flow, finesse, dexterity, speed and agility. This is where a lot of confusion comes into play.

On a large scale to a reasonable degree we can say there aren't any "right" or "wrong" styles. However, with drills we can't *all* be right. If a student is doing a punching drill by kicking the heavy bag they're not developing punches. It doesn't mean their training is completely unproductive, but they're not training what they think they're training. Sensitivity is a crucial skill in many styles of martial arts, especially Wing Chun considering it's range. However, when some Wing Chun schools incorporate techniques like flying knees, kicks and double leg takedowns into Chi-Sau it detracts from the sensitivity development. This can stem from lineage, premature advancement, lack of understanding, etc. Unfortunately, it's prevalent in a lot of Wing Chun today. 

You have a lot of instructors/students that practice this half chi-sau half sparring drill without actually sparring and without a more sensitivity focused chi-sau. This creates an enormous skill gap that leaves a lot students ill-prepared. Yes, Chi Sau has pressure and a certain degree of aliveness, but that doesn't automatically make it a free for all in which anything is allowed. That's what sparring is for, another crucial training component lacking in a lot of Wing Chun schools.


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## WahFist

geezer said:


> _WahFist _-- Welcome to MartialTalk! Thanks for the input. I hope you hang around and continue to contribute.
> 
> BTW are you still actively training WT?


I haven't trained WT for ages.  (Every once in a while I still do forms, footwork, and hit a standing bag sometimes). I just rolled BJJ again with an old training partner that also hadn't been at it for a while.  I am thinking about going back to a WT class.


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## WahFist

geezer said:


> _WahFist _-- Welcome to MartialTalk! Thanks for the input. I hope you hang around and continue to contribute.
> 
> BTW are you still actively training WT?



Two other fun facts from the early 90s in LA.  

!) Will Parker (a super laid back genuinely nice guy) who was a high-level WT (back then maybe 2nd TG) teacher from San Antonio would also come to LA sometimes to train when Sifu Emin was around.  Will was really good and could effortlessly destroy anyone in our training group.  But, Emin could make him look like a student at day 1 off the street.  Will told us about how Emin would practice dealing with hard chain punches by standing with his back to a wall (sometimes Will's refrigerator as I recall) and then have Will come at him with chain punches as hard and fast as Will could.  Will told us he hated the drill because it never ended well for Will.

2) I also got to watch Emin and Remy Latosa practice with sticks one day.  I remember Remy was showing Emin about generating "short power" at closer distances with the stick.  I did not really understand.  But was cool to see, especially as Emin was the student.


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## yak sao

WahFist said:


> I haven't trained WT for ages...  I am thinking about going back to a WT class.



What part of the country are you in?


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## geezer

WahFist said:


> Two other fun facts from the early 90s in LA.
> 
> I also got to watch Emin and Remy Latosa practice with sticks one day.  I remember Remy was showing Emin about generating "short power" at closer distances with the stick.  I did not really understand.  But was cool to see, especially as Emin was the student.



Ageed! Rene and Emin are both awesome in their skill. And I find that Rene's Escrima complements WT really well ...especially Emin's interpretation of WT.  BTW that's _Rene_ Latosa (not Remy Presas)!


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## yak sao

geezer said:


> Ageed! Rene and Emin are both awesome in their skill. And I find that Rene's Escrima complements WT really well ...especially Emin's interpretation of WT.  BTW that's _Rene_ Latosa (not Remy Presas)!



Those guys are definitely in the top 1% of skill level


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## WahFist

yak sao said:


> What part of the country are you in?


Vancouver, Canada.


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