# stand stakes



## ggg214 (Jan 30, 2008)

hello, everyone.
i am a freshman here, and also a taiji practitioner.
in taiji, some schools do have "stand stakes" training, and some dont agree to this kind of training.
do you practise this?
what's your opinion?


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## East Winds (Jan 30, 2008)

ggg214,

I assume you mean Zhan Zhuang (Jam Jong) training? In which case yes, an absolute necessity for Taijiquan training.  Some also teach its more advance form -  Yi Chuan  (Da Cheng Chuan) although it is sometimes considered a martial art in its own right.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> hello, everyone.
> i am a freshman here, and also a taiji practitioner.
> in taiji, some schools do have "stand stakes" training, and some dont agree to this kind of training.
> do you practise this?
> what's your opinion?


 
Do I train Zhan Zhuang? Yes

My opinion of it? It is very important as is Wuji and other standing practices in many CMA styles.


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## Taijiman (Jan 30, 2008)

> Some also teach its more advance form - Yi Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan) although it is sometimes considered a martial art in its own right.


Yi Quan/Da Cheng Quan isn't the more advanced form of taiji quan's standing practices, and didn't develop from taiji quan standing practice.  It's a separate martial art that came from Xingyi Quan, basically eliminating the forms and concentrating on standing practice (which comes from xingyi's standing practice), two person drills, and san shou (sparring).


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2008)

Taijiman said:


> Yi Quan/Da Cheng Quan isn't it's more advanced form, and didn't develop from taiji quan standing practice. It's a separate martial art that came from Xingyi Quan.


 
Yup, Yiquan came from Xingyiquan and Zhan Zhuang is basic to both as is Wuji (or at least it is to Xingyi and I am making an assumption it is basic to Yiquan too)

But Zhan Zhuang is much older than Xingyi and Taijiquan. It has been around for a very long time. Also the term Zhan Zhuang is kind of miss translated or miss used in the West. 

Zhan Zhuang actually is a rather old and more all encompassing name for standing practices much, like Daoyin is what Qigong use to be called, it has however over the years it has become associated with standing post


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## Taijiman (Jan 30, 2008)

> Yup, Yiquan came from Xingyiquan and Zhan Zhuang is basic to both as is Wuji (or at least it is to Xingyi and I am making an assumption it is basic to Yiquan too)





> But Zhan Zhuang is much older than Xingyi and Taijiquan. It has been around for a very long time. Also the term Zhan Zhuang is kind of miss translated or miss used in the West.
> 
> Zhan Zhuang actually is a rather old and more all encompassing name for standing practices much, like Daoyin is what Qigong use to be called, it has however over the years it has become associated with standing post



Yes, exactly.  Xingyi Quan has it's own standing methods, and when the Yi Quan training system branched off, they placed a lot of emphasis on that particular aspect of practice (further developing it, I assume).


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2008)

Taijiman said:


> Yes, exactly. Xingyi Quan has it's own standing methods, and when the Yi Quan training system branched off, they placed a lot of emphasis on that particular aspect of practice (further developing it, I assume).


 
That was my understanding but I have never trained Yiquan so I only know what I read and what one guy I talked to that trained it told me. 

It appears that Yiquan has a lot more postures to stand in that Xingyi that may have come from other sources


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## East Winds (Jan 30, 2008)

Taijiman and Xue Sheng,

Let me quote from "Chi Kung - Way of Power" by Lam Kam Chuen a recognised master of Zhan  Zhuang and Da Cheng Chuan and incidentally  my teacher of Zhan Zhuang and Da Cheng Chuan
*
"The practise of Zhan Zhuang is the foundation of one of the most potent martial arts known to the Chinese as Da Cheng Chuan, which means The Great Accomplishment"

*Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Taijiman and Xue Sheng,
> 
> Let me quote from "Chi Kung - Way of Power" by Lam Kam Chuen a recognised master of Zhan Zhuang and Da Cheng Chuan and incidentally my teacher of Zhan Zhuang and Da Cheng Chuan
> 
> ...


 
Not arguing that and I would agree but Zhan Zhuang is more than just standing post. But &#8220;standing post&#8217; is basic to Yiquan it is the foundation on which you build your other postures. It is, or at least it is my understanding, not an advanced posture but you only get to those by understanding it

This leads the discrepancy in translation, is Lam Kam Chuen referring to JUST what we (in the west) now refer to standing post as "Zhan Zhaung" (standing post) or is he referring to what it use to be thought of as and is still thought of as in China and by many Chinese in MA and TCM, which would fit the quote rather nicely, a practice of various standing postures which includes post, santi and any other standing posture you find (all can be classified as Zhan Zhuang), particularly in Yiquan. 

Remember Zhan Zhuang is not new and it is older than Yiquan, Taijiquan and Xingyiquan. So to say that "Zhan Zhuang is the foundation of one of the most potent martial arts known to the Chinese as Da Cheng Chuan" would be very true, from the perspective of Yiquan, since it may be talking about ALL the standing postures of Yiquan not just one.

You might get an argument from other practitioners of other CMA styles as to its "most potent status" but not many about its foundation in Zhan Zhuang meaning multiple standing practices not just standing post.


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## East Winds (Jan 30, 2008)

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the input. You might find it profitable to read the following link

http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html

Incidentally I have also studied Yi Chuan with Karel Koskuba.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2008)

I read that article a long time ago; I may have even posted a link on MT, not sure about that though. I thought about trainng Yiquan once and even looked into teachers but found only one that was actually real and from Wang in direct lineage and he was 4 hours away and I already had to much so I decided against it.

If I ask my Sifu about Zhan Zhaung and stand in that posture he looks at me like I have 2 heads and calls it something else, sorry the Chinese escapes me at the moment

If I do that same thing and ask my wife I am told "That is not Zhan Zhaung".... "That is only part of Zhan Zhaung" But then her knowledge of such things is from books that are very old, much older than Yiquan actually so things can change. 

Daoyin use to be qigong too, now many think it is part of qigong and a few people have written books about the ancient art of daoyin being a very old qigong practice when in fact that is saying qigong is a very old practice of qigong if you look at it form the POV of anyone still around practicing CMA that was practicing prior to the 1960s. 

What Yiquan wants to call it is fine, matters little to me. 

Question; is this the first or second posture that is taught in Yiquan or is it taught later after other postures?


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## East Winds (Jan 30, 2008)

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the input. The point I was trying to make after Taijiman's input was - Could you learn Yi Chuan without knowing anything about Xing-Yi - absolutely!!!! Could you learn Yi Chuan without first studying Zhan Zhuang - I doubt it. So from that aspect, Zhan Zhuang is the foundation of Yi Chuan. The way I look at it, Zhan Zhuang (with its 5 basic postures) is an ideal Qigong for health. If you want the martial aspect then you need to progress to Da Cheng Chuan.

 I know your love of lineage etc. so here is Lam Kam Chuens in relation to Yi Chuan.   Master Lam Kam Chuen is a student of Grand Master Yu Yong Nian who was student of Wang Xiang Zhai the founder of Yi Chuan/Da Cheng Chuan. Karel Koskuba is a student of Chen Xiaowang.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> Thanks for the input. The point I was trying to make after Taijiman's input was - Could you learn Yi Chuan without knowing anything about Xing-Yi - absolutely!!!! Could you learn Yi Chuan without first studying Zhan Zhuang - I doubt it. So from that aspect, Zhan Zhuang is the foundation of Yi Chuan. The way I look at it, Zhan Zhuang (with its 5 basic postures) is an ideal Qigong for health. If you want the martial aspect then you need to progress to Da Cheng Chuan.
> 
> ...


 
agreed and I need to make a correction here

First as I have said before I really need to NOT post when I am suffering from sleep deprivation, eventually I will listen to myself

Going off post (way off) for a second - sorry

I spent yesterday driving to NYC and standing at an Airport that shall remain nameless for a few hours while immigration interviewed my mother-in-law for 3 hours. Apparently little Chinese ladies in their mid 70s carrying suite cases with Chinese cookies in them are a threat to national security. After that I came home to a sick child and I ended up not sleeping.

Back to post

I decided to talk to my wife about this and I discovered that I am wrong and right and I have misunderstood what she was saying. Zhan Zhuang is by most thought of a Standing Tree in China not standing post but that is not that big a deal really. 

However the Zhan Zhuang we are talking about is not the only Zhan Zhuang. There are others so Standing post is not part of something called Zhan Zhuang it is a type of Zhan Zhaung. 

There is one called Crying Zhan Zhaung that is different for example and there are other types of Zhan Zhaung as well. However what has been posted is zhan zhaung which is by many thought of as standing tree (translated) or standing post. However Zhan Zhaung has been around longer than Yiquan and the daoyin qigong bits are true too 

My apologies for the error :asian:

When I trained Xingyi Wuji, Zhan Zhaung and Santi were all important and considered foundations to Xingyi, Santi being most important.

Taiji I stand in a few poetures and Zhan Zhaung is one of them


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## ggg214 (Jan 30, 2008)

thanks for you all posting here!
maybe there is a misunderstanding for me:do you think the Zhan zhuang is only one posture?like this





or like this





(this is xingyi's Santi)
what about taiji?
as i have been told by my master, every movement is the ZHUANG (stake or tree).in very traddtional practise, taiji has been taught in this way:every movement is divided into 3-6 postures, every postures must be stand still for a time as long as 3-6 breathing.i think they are all zhan zhuang.
and there are another Q:what do you think zhan zhuang will bring to you?strength or Qi,or some things else?
and maybe one more question:how to check out your zhuang posture is right?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> thanks for you all posting here!
> maybe there is a misunderstanding for me:do you think the Zhan zhuang is only one posture?like this


 
That is Zhan Zhuang but there are variations on the theme but in general most will say that is Zhan Zhuang and it is a very important stance in Yiquan. Sorry about the confusion I may have caused you. 



ggg214 said:


> or like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That is Santi Shi which is a very important posture in Xingyiquan it teaches alignment and it also builds stamina and strength. It is also qigong training as time goes on. Minimum time to be considered a beginner at Xingyi is 20 minutes, or so that is what my last sifu told me.



ggg214 said:


> what about taiji?
> 
> Q:what do you think zhan zhuang will bring to you?strength or Qi,or some things else?
> and maybe one more question:how to check out your zhuang posture is right?


 
Standing in Taiji can be done with any posture but my sifu tends to think that Wuji, Zhan Zhuang (but in a lower, wider stance), Single Whip, Play Lute and Repulse Monkey are important. As to breathing I will give you the answer his sifu gave him and he gave me Yes you should. 

What do you gain stamina, alignment and understanding of the flow of energy, relaxation and patients to name a few things. But it is not a quick process and you need to be standing in a posture for a long time. As I said before stand in it for 20 minutes and your a beginner. But in todays world it is hard to find the time needed.


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## ggg214 (Jan 30, 2008)

thanks for your answer!
what about my last question:how to check out your zhuang posture is right?


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## ggg214 (Jan 30, 2008)

thanks for your answer!
what about my last question:how to check out your zhuang posture is right?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 31, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> thanks for your answer!
> what about my last question:how to check out your zhuang posture is right?


 
Have your sifu show you how to stand in it properly and then stand in it for a very long time. 

No secrets, no magic, no shortcuts, just standing.


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## East Winds (Jan 31, 2008)

ggg214,

Yes Xue Sheng is correct. Your teacher should do the correcting. And yes, there is no short cut. Standing and more standing is the answer. Master Lam would have us standing for up to an hour at a time. At first, two minutes seems like two weeks!!!!:erg: but believe me, after a while you will actually enjoy standing.

Very best wishes


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## ggg214 (Jan 31, 2008)

thanks for your words!
in fact, in recent two years, my training is only the standing.

yes, as you said, the more you practise standing ,the more you love it.
now even when i stand as the bustation, i would like to stand as my master requires.
but timing is not the most important part for me , but the right posture.

i feel that even in the same posture, my standing years ago and my standing nowaday are totally different. 
do you all have the same feeling?


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