# What Makes Someone Worthy Of A High Dan?



## MJS (May 30, 2011)

No reason in particular, just tossing this out for discussion.  I know many times, people have commented how much 'red' is out there, whether or not someone is really deserving of it, etc.  

So, in your opinions, what do you feel makes someone worthy of say a 6th and above?  Should there be a test, should it be more of what you've given back?


----------



## Thesemindz (May 30, 2011)

MJS said:


> No reason in particular, just tossing this out for discussion. I know many times, people have commented how much 'red' is out there, whether or not someone is really deserving of it, etc.
> 
> So, in your opinions, what do you feel makes someone worthy of say a 6th and above? Should there be a test, should it be more of what you've given back?


 
Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable without some kind of test. But that can take many forms. It could be a combination of written and physical demonstration of knowledge and skill. It could take place over a length of time, or take into account a body of work. It could be from a higher ranked instructor, or a board of instructors, or acknowledge Masters in the martial arts from the same style or other styles.

I'm nowhere near worrying about this for myself. I may never be. I imagine it would take at least twenty years of dilligent training under a Master instructor to even begin to explore these issues, which I haven't come close to, and as many as fifty years or more to truly become a Master one's self. Maybe I'm way off, but that's how I see it.  

I know that it's pure presumption for me to say what makes someone else's rank legitimate or worthy. The only rank I can be concerned with is mine and what it means to me. So for me, I'd have to be acknowledged by higher ranking artists that I respected. Just like every other rank. The form that the "test" I had to undergo to recieve that acknowledgment could be anything, the end result is the same.

I couldn't just sew some red ribbon onto my belt. I wouldn't feel right about that. At least not where and who I am now. Maybe in the event of the death of a Grandmaster, or the death of a ryu, or the true inspiration of a new method or style a teacher could someday come to that place. I wouldn't know. I haven't gotten there yet.

In the end, rank should only mean something to the person who's wearing it. They sweat and bled for it. 1st degree, 10th degree, the black belt gets you in the door. Once you're there, everybody knows where everybody stands. I don't need to see red to see a Master.


-Rob


----------



## Twin Fist (May 30, 2011)

the following in just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth

No one should be promoted above 4th dan based on skill alone.

Promotion to 5th dan must require them to at least run thier own school and have at least one student promoted to black belt taught entirely by them

7th dan should have 2 generations of black belts under them

8th 3 generations

9th 4 generations of black belts


----------



## Thesemindz (May 30, 2011)

Interesting. I never thought of it that way. So you believe that high rank equals longevity as an instructor, and nothing else? What about practitioners who only seek to study, but can't or don't teach? They can continue to improve but not advance? What about great instructors who's students never succeed as teachers, or who's student's students never succeed, maybe because they can't own schools of their own due to their own lives or desires? Should the first generation be punished for failing to seed the third generation of instructors?

I'm not attacking you, I'm just curious. This is an interesting concept to me that I hadn't previously considered. I'm intrigued.


-Rob


----------



## Twin Fist (May 30, 2011)

Rob, in my world, skill tops out at around 4th dan. Maybe 5th

if someone NEVER teaches? not even in my school?

they will top out at 1st dan.

In my world, a BB means can do and can teach.

if they dont want a school of their own but teach under me? they top out at 4th dan.

thats where skill stops and true mastery starts, and you cant be a master IMO if you dont TEACH


----------



## Thesemindz (May 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> Rob, in my world, skill tops out at around 4th dan. Maybe 5th
> 
> if someone NEVER teaches? not even in my school?
> 
> ...


 
I actually agree with that position. I try to raise all my students to be instructors of the art, and express to them the importance of learning from teaching. But I also recognize that not all of them will go on to teach, and those that do may not go on to have students who perpetuate the art. So I wonder how that would influence my opinion of a student who had trained on their own for forty or fifty years without teaching or starting their own lineages. Would there be a difference between a first year fourth degree and a twenty year fourth degree, even without teaching experience? Wouldn't the development of skill alone transcend what would be appropriate for a fourth degree at some point?

This is all purely intellectual for me of course. I don't even have black belt students of my own right now, and I've never taken a student all the from white to black. I hope someday to take one. I feel I owe it to my ancestors. I don't have twenty years in the arts, or any fourth degree black belt students, much less any fourth degree black belt students who've held that rank for twenty years. I'm just imagining, and wondering.

I agree that instruction is the only path to mastery. I can't imagine a student who trained under the best Masters for fifty years but never taught a class ever understanding as much as the same student who taught his juniors from his second class. Even demonstrating a kick or helping with a drill or pointing out where you struggle with this technique helps your training partners, and that process is what builds true understanding. I never learn so much so fast as when I'm teaching.

In truth, it's probably academic. How many students would ever train that far _without _becoming instructors in some fashion?


-Rob


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> the following in just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth
> 
> No one should be promoted above 4th dan based on skill alone.
> 
> ...


While I can't disagree, it is sad somehow that rank should be about business. 
Sean


----------



## Carol (May 30, 2011)

I like Twin Fist's idea a lot.   The best way to give back to the art is to teach....whether a person is on the mat 6-7 days a week at a large commercial school, or whether a person teaches class after church, there is still the ongoing commitment to one's students.

Something I want to throw out for discussion.  A 20 year old 5th dan might raise eyebrows in a way a 50 year old 5th dan would not.  Should there be a minimum age for such a rank?  Or would teaching on one's own, and promoting a student entirely from white to black suffice?


----------



## Twin Fist (May 30, 2011)

not about business at all

it is about teaching the art to others

knowledge not passed on is wasted


----------



## Twin Fist (May 30, 2011)

Carol said:


> Should there be a minimum age for such a rank?  Or would teaching on one's own, and promoting a student entirely from white to black suffice?




NO DAN RANKS Below 16

EVER

so, using the rank = years between belts rule:

1st Dan 16
2nd Dan 18
3rd Dan 21
4th Dan 25
5th Dan 30
6th Dan 36
7th Dan 43
8th Dan 51
9th Dan 60
10th Dan 70


----------



## Carol (May 30, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> Should the first generation be punished for failing to seed the third generation of instructors?



Well...to be nit picky...is not being able to advance in rank a punishment, or cause for shame?   I don't necessarily think it is.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2011)

Carol said:


> Well...to be nit picky...is not being able to advance in rank a punishment, or cause for shame?   I don't necessarily think it is.


This means big city martial artist get high rank, and small town idaho people get nothin' above 4th. It just doesn't seem right.
Sean


----------



## Twin Fist (May 30, 2011)

i am in a small town, i found students


----------



## Thesemindz (May 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> not about business at all
> 
> it is about teaching the art to others
> 
> knowledge not passed on is wasted


 
I don't totally agree with that. I think a person has every right to pursue knowledge for his own selfish uses. But _personally_ I think I would be doing my instructors a disservice if I didn't pass on the art. That's how martial arts are taught. Hand to hand. Instructor to student. If I broke that chain I'd feel like I had failed.

But I've also already taught plenty of karate classes to say that I've passed on the knowledge. I've passed it on to hundreds of people. I don't feel like a person would have to be a victim to that obligation if they didn't choose it. I don't believe in unchosen obligations. Of course you'd have every right not to associate with such a person.

I teach to honor the tradition and the instructors who came before me. I would not have found the Way without teachers. So I teach. For others. And in a very selfish way for myself because it makes me better.


-Rob


----------



## Thesemindz (May 30, 2011)

Carol said:


> Well...to be nit picky...is not being able to advance in rank a punishment, or cause for shame? I don't necessarily think it is.


 
Not _necessarily_, but I certainly think it _could _be. Especially if an instructor had done everything else in good faith required to progress in rank, including _paying _for his own instruction, and the only thing that kept him from advancing was his student's student's choices.


-Rob


----------



## Carol (May 30, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> Not _necessarily_, but I certainly think it _could _be. Especially if an instructor had done everything else in good faith required to progress in rank, including _paying _for his own instruction, and the only thing that kept him from advancing was his student's student's choices.
> 
> 
> -Rob



Good point.  I don't think "good faith" is sufficient, IMO.  Personally I think this is something the student should know as part of a "here's how we do things" chat before the student even sign on the bottom line on Day 1.


----------



## Big Don (May 31, 2011)

My sifu bases Black Belt promotions on Time in Grade, 4 to 5 years between ranks.
In order to be eligible, one must continue to be a student, expanding his/her knowledge, continue to teach, expanding both his knowledge and that of others, and attend the 3 seminars we have with Sifu Planas each year.


----------



## Nomad (May 31, 2011)

I've been told on multiple occasions that you can get up to 5th Dan based on what you can take from the system (technique & physical improvements, increased knowledge, time in rank, etc), and that ranks above 5th Dan are earned based on what you give back to the art (including teaching, running your own school, spreading the art, and so on).

Personally, this makes a lot of sense to me.


----------



## yorkshirelad (May 31, 2011)

All the ideas mentioned good, but there will never be a standard in the martial arts community as a whole. 
We are here in the Kenpo room so let's use Kenpo as an example. I heard that there was a 'time in' requirement in EPAK at one time, two years betwwen first and second, three years between second and third ect, but this was vary rarely used. How could speakman, as a Lou Angel Black Belt go from nothing in Kenpo to fourth degree in four years? Because Mr. Parker was Kenpo and if he said Speakman was four, he was fourth. Jim Mitchell cross ranked to fifth degree from having a fourth in Tracy Kenpo. Was his rank legitimate? Yes. Why? Because Mr. Parker willed it. 
This seems fair to me. Mr. Parker was so respected and established that he judged the standard of each person's rank and the results were accepted as law. When he died, without leaving an heir, rank became an issue, because each of the seniors had a different view of how rank should be attained. Some just wanted others to join their associations so gave them higher rank as an incentive, so we had the rank chasers, who bounced from one association to the other, collecting rank along the way.
Rank in most Martial arts has been awarded for all manner of reasons. How would Tohie Sensei go from nothing to seventh Dan in two years? Because Ueshiba willed it, and because of this it was accepted without question. How could Hatsumi go from nothing to soke of eight koryu in fifteen years, when he was training with Takamatsu every couple of month? Because takamatsu willed it!
I've heard that Professor Chow would award high ranks to some people with days or weeks of meeting them. Were these people's ranks legitimate? Yes, because Mr. chow said so.
We've gone so far now without real quality control that, that it would be almost impossible to impose a standard on the Kenpo community as a whole. I say, just train with an instrutor that you trust, and train for enjoyment. If you're happy in your training, everything alse is just fluff.


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 1, 2011)

High Ranking really starts counting as time in, and time served.

For example.  Oyata in my opinion deserves the 10th Dan in the Ryute group, because he has dedicated his entire adult life to the art.
    -Started an organization
    -Trained with the "old masters"
    -through his art, he has brought thousands to Martial Arts (including myself)


In order for someone to be granted the highest rank IMO they should be dead/dying/or in the twilight of there life and we/they can reflect on all achivements. So that they can be acknowledged and admired


----------



## KenpoOG (Jun 1, 2011)

I have had this conversation with many people over the years. I think that rank is handed out WAT too quickly these days. Fact is when I was a kid, I was told that rank is one of those things that you just dont expect to get. There were no black belts before the age of 18. PERIOD. 10th degree was reserved ONLY for the founder of a largely recognized style ( Not Rex-kwando LOL) or the oldest son of a founder after the founder died. Kano, Helio Gracie etc.

I think that to advance beyond say 4th, you have to have put in a LOT of years into the art, and made contributions to the community and society beyond the schools doors. To be recognized by the COMMUNITY, not just the martial arts community is key.  I saw a 30 year old sixth degree once. I had to visibly not roll my eyes. My father is 6th, and he has 42 years logged in the martial arts and counting. I think that searching for rank is what is polluting martial arts as a whole and Kenpo in particular. Too many belt chasers. I say for the legitimate, largely recognized keepers of an art, Ernesto Presas, Rorian Gracie, and the like should be in charge of awarding advanced rank. the rest of us should just be content that we have found an awesome thing and get to do it. Godspeed and lets go train!


----------



## Mills Crenshaw (Jun 1, 2011)

In the process of forming the IKKA, Ed Parker stated that any rank above 5th Degree was "Honorary." That did _NOT_ mean that there was no improvement in physical skill or knowledge. It indicated that that there must be a component over and above skill alone. Mastery of the art was essential; but the ability to teach, motivate, and create weighed heavily in his thinking. At the time of his death, the highest rank he had awarded was 7th Degree Black. 

Lost in this discussion is the fact that higher rank could not be "self awarded." The individual must be asked, or nominated by a school or system head. Many of Parker's senior instructors "claimed" no higher rank or honors until "asked" or nominated by schools or systems that continued after Ed Parker's passing. Those honors were well earned. Then there are those who simply decided, for economic reasons, to promote themselves...


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 1, 2011)

Mills Crenshaw said:


> In the process of forming the IKKA, Ed Parker stated that any rank above 5th Degree was "Honorary." That did _NOT_ mean that there was no improvement in physical skill or knowledge. It indicated that that there must be a component over and above skill alone. Mastery of the art was essential; but the ability to teach, motivate, and create weighed heavily in his thinking. At the time of his death, *the highest rank he had awarded was 7th Degree Black.*
> 
> Lost in this discussion is the fact that higher rank could not be "self awarded." The individual must be asked, or nominated by a school or system head. Many of Parker's senior instructors "claimed" no higher rank or honors until "asked" or nominated by schools or systems that continued after Ed Parker's passing. Those honors were well earned. Then there are those who simply decided, for economic reasons, to promote themselves...


 
What about Elvis! I thought he was promoted to 8th by Mr. Parker. I could be wrong. Who said that rank could not be self awarded? Mr. Parker awarded himself a 10th. Why shouldn't anyone just follow his lead?


----------



## Doc (Jun 1, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> What about Elvis! I thought he was promoted to 8th by Mr. Parker. I could be wrong. Who said that rank could not be self awarded? Mr. Parker awarded himself a 10th. Why shouldn't anyone just follow his lead?


While self promotion is common in the arts of all kind, most shake out the artistically fraudulent through performance evaluations of the end product. To this end, Mr. Parker was certainly deserved of whatever rank he might have chosen for himself, had he done so. His impact on American Karate in general, and his own many variations of Kenpo specifically are historically documented sir.

However, Mr. Parker's rank was not a matter of self-promotion. All of Mr. Parker's ranks were awarded by another of senior stature to his own, or by third party organizations and/or boards of credentials, and in some cases both. The late great Sijo Adriano Emperado awarded and/ or endorsed all of Mr. Parker's rank. And virtually every recognized organization of the time presented him with credentials of the highest rank. He literally had stacks of diplomas and certificates in his office file from Chinese, Japanese, and Korean organizations, as well as acknowledgements from the American, Chinese, and Indonesian Governments honoring him for that highest rank and his contributions.


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 1, 2011)

Doc said:


> While self promotion is common in the arts of all kind, most shake out the artistically fraudulent through performance evaluations of the end product. To this end, Mr. Parker was certainly deserved of whatever rank he might have chosen for himself, had he done so. His impact on American Karate in general, and his own many variations of Kenpo specifically are historically documented sir..


 
No doubt!!



Doc said:


> However, Mr. Parker's rank was not a matter of self-promotion. All of Mr. Parker's ranks were awarded by another of senior stature to his own, or by third party organizations and/or boards of credentials, and in some cases both. *The late great Sijo Adriano Emperado awarded and/ or endorsed all of Mr. Parker's rank.* And virtually every recognized organization of the time presented him with credentials of the highest rank. He literally had stacks of diplomas and certificates in his office file from Chinese, Japanese, and Korean organizations, as well as acknowledgements from the American, Chinese, and Indonesian Governments honoring him for that highest rank and his contributions.


 
He may have endorsed his 10th, but did he give it to him? I'm not saying that Mr. parker wasn't legit, after all, noone could deny that Mr. parker was Kenpo. I'm sayin (as I've said umpteen times before) that there is no real standard for judging rank other than appreciating first hand what the person does.

In retrospect, I shouldn't of used Mr. Parker as an example. I'll use you if you don't mind. You accepted 10th from ATAMA. Why? presumably because you respect those in the association, and they in turn recognised your contributions to the Martial Arts. mr. Sullivan and Mr. La Reux created an organisation with certain by laws, that they held them selves to in order to progress to 10th. Mr. Tatum accepted the rank from his students, Mr. Cogliandro accepted the rank from someone outside his art, but who was still a cousin of EPAK. Are any of those ranks frauduent or void, some people may think so, but only the people with an ax to grind. In reality it's open season on ranking. Mr. Parker may have dropped the ball by not naming an heir. On the other hand, maybe this was his plan. Maybe he wanted all those first generation students to make their own way. If that was the case, he succeeded. Personally I don't know, unfortunately for me, I didn't know the man.

What do I know anyway. I haven't worn a belt to train in almost four years. I always wondered why my pants kept falling down. :rofl:


----------



## Doc (Jun 1, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> No doubt!!
> 
> He may have endorsed his 10th, but did he give it to him? I'm not saying that Mr. parker wasn't legit, after all, noone could deny that Mr. parker was Kenpo. I'm sayin (as I've said umpteen times before) that there is no real standard for judging rank other than appreciating first hand what the person does.
> 
> ...


Good point. For me personally, my motivation for the rank(s) were because it was originally at the recommendation of one of the founders of ATAMA, who was a senior Parker student, Sifu Ralph Castro, who presided over my 8th in person, along with JKA Hawaii Founder Edwin Hamile, who also founded the World Federation of Karate-do Organizations whose board awarded me a 9th, as well as other ranks, etc. While it was a privilege to be honored by my teachers peers, (which is in many ways more satisfying then my own peers), I choose to not wear any rank, nor do any of my students. It is more important to me to perform at your level, than to wear it.


----------



## Mills Crenshaw (Jun 1, 2011)

Ed Parker did not "promote himself." The governing body of the IKKA, without Ed Parker's input, insisted that; as the creator and inovator of the modern, advanced style of Kenpo and as the head and Senior Master of the art, he accept the rank which he had earned by deeds and demonstrated excellence. It was felt that it was essential that he assume that leadership role. In all the years that followed we saw nothing that indicated such an award was unjustified. Many have self promoted themselves to 10th Degree Black Belt for selfish economic reasons...Ed Parker was not one of them. 

(By way of information: Elvis' 8th Degree did not come through the IKKA)


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 2, 2011)

Mills Crenshaw said:


> Ed Parker did not "promote himself." The governing body of the IKKA, without Ed Parker's input, insisted that; as the creator and inovator of the modern, advanced style of Kenpo and as the head and Senior Master of the art, he accept the rank which he had earned by deeds and demonstrated excellence. It was felt that it was essential that he assume that leadership role. In all the years that followed we saw nothing that indicated such an award was unjustified. Many have self promoted themselves to 10th Degree Black Belt for selfish economic reasons...Ed Parker was not one of them.
> 
> (By way of information: Elvis' 8th Degree did not come through the IKKA)


 
I think Mr. Rebelo is probably eyeing this thread ready to pounce at any moment. I remember him recounting a tale of Mr. Parker being asked about how he knew it was time to don the 10th Degree (or something along those lines). His reply (and again, I'm paraphrasing) was, "I observed the standards of my peers, and ranked myself accordingly!" Now, if I'm wearing my 'Devil's advocate' cap, your above statement just implies that Mr. Parker's students ranked him. Many other masters have been scorned for this.
As far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with this. Mr. Parker created EPAK, although I believe he never used the term EPAK or American Kenpo, so he had the right to don any belt he wanted. There is no standard for ranking! Sam Kuoha had Mr. Chow's widow and Physician write him a reference for 10th. Ohtsuka of Wado ryu was ranked to 4th by Funokoshi and then the government awarded him his 10th (or at least sanctioned it). This would be like Obama awarding me a 10th, it sounds silly. Are these people considered 10th? Yes! Why? Because they say so, as Mr. Parker said so about himself.
Mr. Sullivan got the right idea when he created the by laws of the IKCA. The by laws have set rules for the attainment of rank long after Mr. Sullivan retires from his org.

I don't consider donning a 10th, especially as a senior Parker student selfish, even if it is for financial reasons. If someone teaches for a living, surely they want to have their business be as successful as possible. In advertising literature, surely it looks better to the prospective client if a 'master' is a 10th as opposed to a 7th. 

I've never understood the distain some have for Martial Arts business men and full time teachers. I know a good few professional teachers and they are all noble men.


----------



## MJS (Jun 2, 2011)

Awesome replies everyone!  Keep 'em coming. :ultracool

So, to answer my own thread..lol....

2 of TFs posts caught my eye.  The one where he mentioned having a track record of people tested under you, to BB.  And of course, I also agree with the time frames for each BB level.  The level that you're going for, you wait that many years in between your last rank.  

IMO, I dont think it should be so much of a physical test.  I mean, one would hope that by the time you're testing for 6th, 7th, 8th, even 9th, that you can perform the material.  I do think though, that you should be giving back, ie: teaching, seminars, spreading the art, working with other seniors in the art and even other arts, etc.

Self promos....nope, not a fan of that.


----------



## Wo Fat (Jun 2, 2011)

The "High Dan" horse has been out of the barn for years.  That said, there have been several great responses to this question.  To me, that suggests that there are people not of high rank, who have the right ideas about it.  

Relative skill, ability and knowledge that can be demonstrated in any format or situation is at least one way to "demystify" high dan rank.  Showing leadership in the art is a must.  Not the "do as I say cuz I'm an 8th degree" bullying kind of leadership, but advancing and perpetuating and refining the art for those who will inherit it later.  That kind of leadership.  

In too many instances, those of high dan status are _unwilling_ to lead--today--because they are _unable_ to lead.  This leaves a void to be filled by those who are mid-level (3rd through 5th dan).  This created high dan figure heads and little more.  And resentment followed shortly after.

Personally, I have publicly pledged not to declare or accept any degree higher than 5th.  Period.  That way I can stay focused on the arts.


----------



## John Bishop (Jun 2, 2011)

The only rank that is of any value is the rank your students and peers believe you deserve, not the one you wear.  
There are organizations all over the world that will award high ranks for money or just to build their membership.  And then there are individuals who will just promote themselves.   
Now days high rank is extremely easy to obtain.  The respect of your students and peers is not.


----------



## Doc (Jun 2, 2011)

John Bishop said:


> The only rank that is of any value is the rank your students and peers believe you deserve, not the one you wear.
> There are organizations all over the world that will award high ranks for money or just to build their membership.  And then there are individuals who will just promote themselves.
> Now days high rank is extremely easy to obtain.  The respect of your students and peers is not.



Amen Brudda, and you don't need no stinkin stripes and bars for that.


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 2, 2011)

John Bishop said:


> The only rank that is of any value is the rank your students and peers believe you deserve, not the one you wear.
> *There are organizations all over the world that will award high ranks for money or just to build their membership. And then there are individuals who will just promote themselves*.
> Now days high rank is extremely easy to obtain. The respect of your students and peers is not.


This is very true! professor Chow would promote people after meeting them for a few days or weeks. He promoted many people to high ranks, presumably for financial reasons. I've often heard it said that these people took advantage of the Professor, but maybe the Professor took advantage of them. After all, a few hundred bucks for a piece of paper sounds like quite a rip off, but the certificate and a photo op can lend legitimacy to any Martial Artists business, and we know that the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

My Hapkido teacher in Wicklow is a 9th Dan under Do Ju Nim, ji Han Jae, he began hapkido in 1992 and was 8th in 1999 when I graded to black. I believe he was 35 years old at the time. He was already a 4th in kyokushikai and an established kickboxer when he began Hapkido and Do Ju Nim was actively seeking international representatives at the time so his rank had obvious business motives, but he is a phenominal Martial Artist and has been loyal to Do Ju Nim since beginning his Hapkido studies.

Do Ju Nim recently ranked 3 people to 10th Dan. On of these men is European, one is American and one is Asian. Each of these men will carry the Sin Moo torch in their respective regions when Do Ju nim retires. The european guy in question began training in Hapkido in 1990. That's less than 21 years from nothing to 10th Black. Is he deserved? Yes! Why? Because he's a phenominal Martial Artist who has tirelessly carried the Hapkido torch.

I think the Kenpo community at large looks down on people who are a 10th. Especially the same design belt that Mr. Parker wore. I didn't know Mr. Parker, but it seems that he was unique in the sense that he exhibited all the characteristics that would make up a Martial arts Grandmaster; physically impressive, charismatic, creative, artistic, intelligent, tough. The best friend you could have, or the worse enemy. Maybe it would've been more apt for Mr. parker to have adopted the status of Mudan as Shioda Sensei was ranked by IMAF. That way his students could wear a 10th and not feel that they were in some way paralleling the rank of Mr. Parker.

Either way, like it or not 10ths are now a dime a dozen. There's no need to sweat it. Just train!


----------



## Doc (Jun 2, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> Either way, like it or not 10ths are now a dime a dozen. There's no need to sweat it. Just train!


If they are, it must be inflation. I thought they were cheaper than that. They were a dime a dozen, 15 years ago.


----------



## Wo Fat (Jun 3, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> ... professor Chow would promote people after meeting them for a few days or weeks. He promoted many people to high ranks, presumably for financial reasons. I've often heard it said that these people took advantage of the Professor, but maybe the Professor took advantage of them. After all, a few hundred bucks for a piece of paper sounds like quite a rip off, but the certificate and a photo op can lend legitimacy to any Martial Artists business, and we know that the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.



You could substitute "Chow" for other legendary Kenpo names and have the same results:  lineages established under a cloud of suspicion and questionable circumstances.

I'm forced to agree with Professor Bishop.  Student and (and maybe a little) peer recognition are a good indicator of high rank legitimacy.


----------



## OzPaul (Jun 3, 2011)

Please take what i say with a grain of salt.  I am only an Orange belt in Kenpo and i find it quite amusing that we (adults) talk about if someone is deserving of rank or not.  You would either have to be jealous or not happy with your own skill if you have enough time to think about what others are doing/have done.  This is the biggest problem with Martial Arts...  People look into the it's not the belt its the journey etc. story too much.  Just keep training and you will become proficient in your skill.  Sorry to be a little off topic or disrespectful but it is a bit depressing as a low belt in a Martial Art to read about people wondering why someone deserves a certain rank... seriously who gives a %^&*?  Regards


----------



## Wo Fat (Jun 3, 2011)

OzPaul said:


> Please take what i say with a grain of salt.  I am only an Orange belt in Kenpo and i find it quite amusing that we (adults) talk about if someone is deserving of rank or not.  You would either have to be jealous or not happy with your own skill if you have enough time to think about what others are doing/have done.  This is the biggest problem with Martial Arts...  People look into the it's not the belt its the journey etc. story too much.  Just keep training and you will become proficient in your skill.  Sorry to be a little off topic or disrespectful but it is a bit depressing as a low belt in a Martial Art to read about people wondering why someone deserves a certain rank... seriously who gives a %^&*?  Regards



No need to apologize.  You're saying what many--especially those who are of senior rank--tend forget:  that those who are coming up in the arts should be able to inherit more than politics and petty squabbles about rank and stature.  

Please continue to train and learn.  Develop a "green thumb" so that you can cultivate and grow the art to feed others who will come after you.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 9, 2011)

All of the discussion about time in the art and seniority and skill are irrelevant.  

There are only two legitimate criteria for high dans in Kenpo:  age plus waist size.  

The formula is simple:   Dan <= (age+waistsize)*2/30.   So, if you were 50 years old with a 40 inch waist, you would be a 6th degree.  60 with a 45 inch waist, 7th degree.   70 with a 50 inch waist, 8th degree.   80 with a 55 inch waist, 9th degree.   Tenth degree should be reserved only for the very aged and morbidly obese.


----------



## Buka (Jul 9, 2011)

This is a difficult subject. And even though I am not a Kenpo man this is a subject that transverses all martial arts. 
I was friends with Ed Parker, he helped me a great deal. And anybody can say what they want about him but I'll tell you what, he was something else. And, man, could he FIGHT. And he was a really nice man. 

I have known Tony Cogliandro since he was a kid.

George Pesare taught me as much about fighting as anyone.

To me &#8211;your name is your rank. How people that know you, fight with you, or train with you, how THEY respond to your name - tells all.

I wear a belt that has no stripes. Enscribed on it - &#38542;&#32026;&#28961;&#24847;&#21619; on one end and &#27494;&#22763;&#36947;&#19968;&#31563; on the other. It's meaning (which is difficult to literally translate) is &#8220;Rank has no meaning.&#8221; and &#8220;Bushido is the only path.&#8221;

I have been fortunate in my life. I have trained with many Masters, we spent many hours on the dojo.. Many of them stayed at my home whenthey were in the area. We engaged in hundreds of hours of talk about anything and everything. But not once in my memory, did we ever discuss rank. It did not seem to matter to them. Not one little bit.

Just saying.


----------



## Wo Fat (Jul 10, 2011)

Maybe we should start looking at high dan rank in the same way the military looks at Generals.  For instance, the law puts a limit on the number of 4-star generals.  And each branch puts a cap on the number of Generals period.  And these are active Generals.  When they are no longer active, then they are "Retired General [Such-and-Such]".  

And even though the military equivalent of high dan rank is political in some ways, there are standards in place so that age and service years alone doesn't qualify them for high rank.


----------

