# Future of the Bujinkan



## Newbie (Jul 9, 2010)

Firstly, i apologise if this has been posted before or is the wrong section.

I just wondered what the general concensus was out there regarding how or where the Bujinkan will end up in the future...ie, Where will Soke be passed to next, if indeed it does, what happens if it doesn't get passed on, how this will affect Ninjutsu in the west etc...?

I've touched on the subject with other members of my club but just wondered what other peoples thoughts, rumours heard, understandings were etc...


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## Chris Parker (Jul 9, 2010)

Hmm, I'm going to try to head this off here. So you know, it's considered a little impolite to discuss the future of such things in Japanese culture; instead you are expected to trust in your instructor (or in this case Soke) and their judgement. Of course, the West is rather different.... and this is quite a well worded question.

Essentially there have been no announcements from Hatsumi Sensei beyond passing the teachings he recieved from Takamatsu Sensei onto the current students of the Bujinkan. However there have theories about likely successors, initially of course Tanemura, but most often (that I have heard) Nagato Shihan. But this is purely speculation, and if you were to ask either Nagato or Hatsumi, I doubt either would express much interest in discussing the likelihood.

As for what will happen with the Bujinkan, who knows? Again we can only speculate, however there are a few case studies we can look to for some idea.

Kyokushinkai Karate had a named successor to Mas Oyama (Shokei Matsui), who was unable to hold the organisation together, leading to splintering and various organistations. Each have their own level of success, and continue to teach and impart their lessons to their students today. A similar situation could occur in the Bujinkan, depending on who is chosen to succeed.

Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo was left without a central head after the passing of Shimazu Kenji Sensei, with the various groups being lead by Menkyo Kaiden holders. Each group has a slightly different syllabus, and occassionally use the term Jojutsu instead. Again, with a number of Jugodan holders around, if there is no designated successor then such a situation could occur.

Or, of course, there could be a designated successor, and the organisation will continue with more or less the same approach as now.... or could change direction radically. Depends on who it is.

Don't know if this has helped at all, but hopefully you can see that there really is no way to know until the situation presents itself, and until then, the best idea is to focus on your training, and worry about the present rather than the future, as that is what is actually affecting you and your training here and now.


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## ElfTengu (Jul 9, 2010)

We're not meant to discuss it!


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## Omar B (Jul 9, 2010)

When it happens we will know.  As I see it, it's a private issue that's way above our heads.  It's a private organization, they don't owe any of us any explanations further than our tech in class.


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## Newbie (Jul 9, 2010)

Cheers Chris, I understand your point about it being impolite in japanese culture to ask questions like this, especially to those directly in question.

However, and as you pointed out, i am from the west, this is an open forum and i see nothing wrong with asking questions about any subject at all.

Thanks for answering though as this was pretty much what i had heard or thought too and it was cool just to get someone elses thoughts or response.

All the best!


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## jks9199 (Jul 9, 2010)

Here's a suggestion:  Discuss the future of the Bujinkan and the training.  Don't worry about the Soke or any succession issues.

Look at the changes in the Bujinkan over the last 10 (or 20...) years; how do you think training will change?


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2010)

A GM/Soke/whatever that doesn't plan or prepare for succession just opens his art for all sorts of power plays and squabbling. Look at Modern Arnis.


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## MJS (Jul 9, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> A GM/Soke/whatever that doesn't plan or prepare for succession just opens his art for all sorts of power plays and squabbling. Look at Modern Arnis.


 
Exactly....and Kenpo too.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 10, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> A GM/Soke/whatever that doesn't plan or prepare for succession just opens his art for all sorts of power plays and squabbling. Look at Modern Arnis.



This doesn't matter, it happens anyhow.  Takamatsu clearly named a new Soke, and for whatever reasons we still have three big Organizations with mixed feelings about each other.  I'm sure this has been going on through history.

Personally, I don't think it matters.  I'm just gonna train, and when decisions are made or not, and the organization grows, splits, splinters, continues the same... I'm just gonna train.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 10, 2010)

There is a difference in this respect as both of the other two major organizations founders were direct students of the Soke that Takamatsu named.  Slightly different at least in my opinion.


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 10, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> There is a difference in this respect as both of the other two major organizations founders were direct students of the Soke that Takamatsu named.  Slightly different at least in my opinion.



Technically....

Yoshio Fumiko was named Ura Soke of Togakure ryu and passed that sokeship to Tanemura sensei. And many other students but Hatsumi sensei were menkyo kaiden holder or soke of arts passing through Takamatsu sensei. I seem to remember that there is only 1 ryuha in Genbukan that did not also pass through other students of Takamatsu sensei.

So all in all, given that only 1 in 23 or 24 ryuha in Genbukan depend on the lineage through Hatsumi sensei....
And given that all former students of Takamatsu sensei decided to accept Tanemura sensei as a student and passed all their licenses to him....
And given that the way in which we train in Gebukan is more like how training was done under Takamatsu sensei...
And given that in Genbukan we can actually learn the arts themselves the way Takamatsu passed them and get menkyo kaiden like in the olden ways...

One could argue about that difference, if one was so inclined  
Hypothetically of course


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## Cryozombie (Jul 10, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> There is a difference in this respect as both of the other two major organizations founders were direct students of the Soke that Takamatsu named.  Slightly different at least in my opinion.



My point tho, is that even when you have a named successor, arts still split, change, offshoots form, etc... and you wind up with in-fighting, even if its mainly amongst the students and not the masters.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 10, 2010)

Absolutely Cryozombie!
f
Now I am not disparaging in any way Tanemura Sensei.  He is a fantastic martial pracitioner and legitimately has all of his rankings, etc.  However, during the pivital time of his training he learned his martial skills from none other than Hatsumi Sensei.  *Of this everyone has no doubt of and we can all try and rewrite history but the facts are the factsf! *  Now they had a disagreement and they are not connected in anyway anymore.  They each have their independent organizations and manage them as they see fit.   *Anyone would be lucky to train with either or also with Manaka Sensei! *  Personally I like how all of them move and train and run their organizations!


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 11, 2010)

I was only joking Brian. I thought I had used enough smilies to make that clear  I know that Hatsumi sensei played a very important role at an important time, for quite a long time. Without him, there is no doubt that things would have turned out very differently.

But leaving all politicking aside for a moment, I've always found the following an interesting contradiction: Hatsumi sensei is without doubt a great master of his arts. No doubt about that. However, to get where he is now, he learned the arts in the traditional way, for a long time, as did the other grandmasters before he changed that. So in order to get to that point of perfection, one would think that that is the road you have to follow, instead of trying to go directly for the end result. And it is interesting that Hatsumi sensei would tell you to train like that.

Mind you I don't mean to say that it is a bad way to train or anything, just that it is interesting that this is completely unlike his own original training or that of the Genbukan and Jinenkan soke, and the majority of other koryu organizations. Of course I am not in a position to interpret that course of action. It's just something that is a really interesting change of direction.


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## Archangel M (Jul 11, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> But leaving all politicking aside for a moment, I've always found the following an interesting contradiction: Hatsumi sensei is without doubt a great master of his arts. No doubt about that. However, to get where he is now, he learned the arts in the traditional way, for a long time, as did the other grandmasters before he changed that. So in order to get to that point of perfection, one would think that that is the road you have to follow, instead of trying to go directly for the end result. And it is interesting that Hatsumi sensei would tell you to train like that.


 
Not to dispute what you said here, the man is impressive even at his age, but there are many great masters of many arts out there. How has this *one* achieved such popular recognition?

IMO Hatsumi sensi has achieved his noteriety due to many factors other than martial arts. Riding the wave crest of the 80's ninja craze and monopolizing on many marketing opportunities being foremost. And for those who may think I am being insulting by saying that..don't. Political maneuvering and deft, even "cut throat" marketing are marks of a "strategic mind". It's my opinion that Hatsumi sensei's "ninja skills" are probably most evident in his rise to popular martial arts recognition. 

While I know that he wants to distance the Bujinkan from the black suited "Ninja" image, my cynical side believes that it is exactly that image that propelled (with the assistance of Hayes' markting in the 80's) the Bujinkan to its present status.


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 11, 2010)

I cannot speak about Hatsumi sensei's intentions (not being part of the Bujinkan). And there are indeed many other people who are truly good at their art.

The only basis I have to that opinion is the footage I've seen on youtube, some of which is sadly no longer available due to copyright issues.The way he moves to evade e.g. a knife thrust is nothing short of amazing. Not in how spectacular he moves, but rather the way in which he moves almost not at all, in a manner that still puts him at an incovenient angle for the next attack.

It's not that you don't see him move because he is so fast; you don't see him move because he barely moves at all. I know that this sounds silly and I really wish I could link to the youtube vid which has been pulled. Of all the things I saw him do, that simple evasion was the most spectacular because it highlighted his skill.


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## ElfTengu (Jul 11, 2010)

Newbie said:


> Cheers Chris, I understand your point about it being impolite in japanese culture to ask questions like this, especially to those directly in question.
> 
> However, and as you pointed out, i am from the west, this is an open forum and i see nothing wrong with asking questions about any subject at all.
> 
> ...


 
All I can confirm is that no one with any experience in the Takamatsuden arts, especially the Bujinkan, is likely to take me up if I wagered that there will be at least 5 Japanese-led X-kans altogether in 10-15 years time, and that no one currently in the Bujinkan can say without hesitation that they will be in the one that still has the Bujinkan name, because there is a lot yet to play out.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 12, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I was only joking Brian. I thought I had used enough smilies to make that clear  I know that Hatsumi sensei played a very important role at an important time, for quite a long time. Without him, there is no doubt that things would have turned out very differently.
> 
> But leaving all politicking aside for a moment, I've always found the following an interesting contradiction: Hatsumi sensei is without doubt a great master of his arts. No doubt about that. However, to get where he is now, he learned the arts in the traditional way, for a long time, as did the other grandmasters before he changed that. So in order to get to that point of perfection, one would think that that is the road you have to follow, instead of trying to go directly for the end result. And it is interesting that Hatsumi sensei would tell you to train like that.
> 
> Mind you I don't mean to say that it is a bad way to train or anything, just that it is interesting that this is completely unlike his own original training or that of the Genbukan and Jinenkan soke, and the majority of other koryu organizations. Of course I am not in a position to interpret that course of action. It's just something that is a really interesting change of direction.



I think you make a very astute point.  Personally if you are training with Hatsumi Sensei you can expect a fast paced type of an environment with lots of Henka.  Where you need to go for the finer subtleties is the training with the Japanese Shihan.  Personally I think to many people want to jumpt to the top rather than work consistently over a long period of time on the basics.  I wish more people concentrated on their basics.  This particularly pertains to people that have been around a long time and need to be teaching the next generation.  Now there are of course many practitioners that do this but of course their are others that do not.  I like how many Genbukan and Jinekan people that I have met move they have been very good.  I also really like how multiple Bujinkan people move.  Usually those people practice their basics with intensity and lots of repitition.  Yet, they also get lots and lots of Henka from Hatsumi Sensei which seems to give them another edge.


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## Mac1964 (Nov 16, 2010)

It's the whole "Why are you moving 3 feet? My knife is only a 2 inches wide?" Your right his movement is amazing.


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