# Seniority in the Arts



## Datu Tim Hartman (Feb 16, 2011)

I've had some interesting conversation on what gives you seniority in the art that you train. I'm interested in how people define it.


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## seasoned (Feb 16, 2011)

In life there are foolish old men "people" that have the time in life, but not the wisdom that goes with it. Seniority in anything, is more then just time involved. 40 + years in the arts should afford you a rank of *seniority*, but *wisdom* and *knowledge* will garner the *respect* to complete that cycle. Just a thought.:asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Feb 16, 2011)

Seniority has several aspects:

Total time in the art - A person who has 5 years in the art is senior to one who has 3 years in the art.

Degree of time training in the art - A person who began the art in 1965, laid off for 5 years and then resumed training until 1980 (15 years total time, 10 years training time) is not the same as one who has trained for 15 continuous years.  He/she might have "older brother/sister" status but not necessarily seniority.

Rank in the art - a 5th dan is senior to a 3rd dan.

Time in rank in the art - A person who has been ranked 5th dan for 10 years is senior to someone who has been ranked 5th dan for 10 years.

Total time training in the martial arts - A person involved in the martial arts for 40 years is senior to one who has 30 years in the martial arts.

Re seniority it would also be at the senior most practitioner's discretion (usually the chief instructor) who ends up being senior as well, but this would be clearly stated and not implied or interpreted by the students themselves.

A fascinating point is in an art/system/school that has a strong respect ethic, a higher designated numerical rank is not necessarily an indication of being senior.  The same is with titles.  Pre-WWII Aikido is a beautiful example of this.  If you read Stanley Pranin's book _Aikido Masters volume 1_ you will see many examples of this respect ethic.

Seniority is a very simple matter made complex at times.

This can be done by: 
A. Juniors who want to be senior but are not acknowledged as such.
B. Unclear delineation in an art's heirarchy creates a muddled scene.
C. Students breaking off at various times in time line of the art's development and later declaring seniority in the mother art.
D. Students who demand seniority because of aims & goals accomplished.

Physical skills do not necessarily play a part in this as the body ages and wears out.  A 20 year old practitioner is going to be able to maneuver better than a 60 year old.

Nor does being in the public eye, popularity or personal PR denote seniority.

Usually it is also determined by the above points and earned respect, not by demand.  

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 16, 2011)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I've had some interesting conversation on what gives you seniority in the art that you train. I'm interested in how people define it.


 

1) Rank

2) Time in Rank

3) Age of the people


Example(s): 

1) Person A and Person B both start on the same day. While they are training the older one has seniority. So if Person B is older they would have seniority.

2) Person A tests and Person B is out of town and does not test. Person A now out ranks Person B and has seniority. 

3) Person A continues to train and test, and person B contrinues to train but not teach or test. Person A out ranks Person B even if Person B was older and Senior while they were the same rank. 

4) Person A continues to train and teach and Person B drops out of site and does not teach and may work out on their own once or twice a year and Person B has started before Person A not just older than Person A.  So Person B is older and started first even by years but dropped out or stopped training, which means Person A has seniority. Even if they have not been training. They have time in the art at that rank doing something, not just having a clock go tick tock. 



Now for a diffferent discussion, Rank can be actual Belt rank or Titles or working with each other and having a pecking order, each art or system has their own way.


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## Dan Anderson (Feb 16, 2011)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I've had some interesting conversation on what gives you seniority in the art that you train. I'm interested in how people define it.


How do you define it?

Yours,
Dan


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## Brian Johns (Feb 23, 2011)

My definition is pretty simple. I define seniority as anyone who has had more time in the art than I have had, subject to the qualifications laid out by Dan and Rich. As both have pointed out, there is a fair bit of complexity to this issue. :uhyeah:

Take care,
Brian


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2011)

IMO, I dont think that the age plays a big part or any part at all.  I"m 37.  If I started training at the same time someone whos 40 starts, he's no more my senior in the art, than I am to him.  If I start in Jan and he starts in Apr. I'd be more senior, as I'd have more training time in.  

I'd say rank plays a part.  Although rank doesnt necessarily translate into skill.


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