# White Crane Style Fajin Break Down



## dre2308 (May 19, 2013)

(Fajin) is a term used in Chinese martial art meaning to discharge or issue power explosively, and the style of fajin shown in the video belongs to White crane.

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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2013)

Fajin is fajin.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2013)

What did the instructor intend to show? Did he try to show that he could use Fajin to

- "hurt", or
- "throw"

his opponent?

It's similiar to the following clip that I don't understand what he was trying to show.


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## dre2308 (May 19, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What did the instructor intend to show? Did he try to show that he could use Fajin to
> 
> - "hurt", or
> - "throw"
> ...



Both to your question. 

fajin in internal martial arts, such as Tai Chi or White Crane, in short is just applying one's force in a more effective and efficient fashion rather than using the less efficient version (brute force).

And it is normally done by the utilization of specific body mechanics, breathing techniques along with internal force from years of chi&#65279; cultivating exercise and etc.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2013)

What do you want to achieve? To knock your opponent down or to throw your opponent down? Push is neither punch nor throw. What's the purpose of "push"?


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## dre2308 (May 19, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you want to achieve? To knock your opponent down or to throw your opponent down? Push is neither punch nor throw. What's the purpose of "push"?



I see what you are asking. The push is more for throwing the opponent down in our style, which is normally used after Sanshou (combo strikes).

Like it shows from 5:11 to 5:48 in this video: 




I will double check with my master whether it can also be used for other purposes. thanks for asking.


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## blindsage (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>


If you don't understand what Chen Man Ching is doing you should find a good Taiji instructor.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2013)

blindsage said:


> If you don't understand what Chen Man Ching is doing you should find a good Taiji instructor.


I'm a Taiji instructor.


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## blindsage (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm a Taiji instructor.



Then you should already understand what CMC is doing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2013)

blindsage said:


> Then you should already understand what CMC is doing.



 In the style of Taiji, I'm one generation above Chen Man Ching. I don't see the value of "push" in combat.

- Bruce Lee said, "I punch, I don't push". 
- Kung Fu Wang said, "I throw, I don't push".


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## blindsage (May 20, 2013)

I'm sure you are.  But the answer is the same, if you don't understand what CMC is doing then you missed something.


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## dre2308 (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the style of Taiji, I'm one generation above Chen Man Ching. I don't see the value of "push" in combat.



Fair enough. "Push" is more of the move used in a push-hand duel, and maybe is not so commonly used in combat.

However, in our style we utilize it in combat. It actually serves as the transition move between combo attacks (SanShou).

Offensively, the "push" is used to make your opponent *off balanced* so that you will get a better chance of hitting him with the 2nd combo, and is normally activated right after the 1st combo and when the defender are close enough.

Goes in sequence like: 1st combo &#8594;push &#8594; 2nd combo

Defensively, I think it could be used to create space to prevent grappling when the opponent is too close to you. 

Just my 2 cents


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2013)

If you push your opponent, the distance between you and him will be increased. This will be harder for you to hit him after that. Instead, you should pull your opponent into you and give him a "head on collision". That will fit the striking model: 

A + B > A

The throwing model will require 2 opposite directions force. One to push your opponent's upper body. One to pull his leg/legs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI0YgIxoqUE&feature=youtu.be

 Since there is no such thing as opposite directions Fajin (at least I don't believe it exists), Faiji will have little to no value in the throwing model.

If your opponent gets a hold on you, his body and your body will be combined as one unit. Your push will not increase distance between you and him. Try to keep your friends close but your enemies closer. This is why to push your opponent away is not a good idea. Of course you can 

- push your opponent off cliff, or 
- push him into heavy traffic, or
- push his forehead to bend his head backward and put pressure on his neck, 

Besides that I just don't see much value of "push". The push will have great usage if you combine it with your leg hooking. Without using your leg, push is just one contact point. 

- 1 point contact force can "move" an object.
- 2 points contact force can "rotate" an object.


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## Xue Sheng (May 20, 2013)

Oh for crying out loud...fajin is not push and if you think it is you are clueless.... it is a hit...with any part of the body you intend to hit with, it is a release of energy, and if you see no use for it you do not understand its usage and you do not know taijiquan "PERIOD"

And if lineages matter I am 6th generation Yang from Tung Ying Cheih and trained with 19th generation Chen and hope to be again soon.


There is no Taiji fajin, Bagua fajin, Xingyquan fajin or white crane fajin there is ONLY FAJIN!!!!!


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## mograph (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you push your opponent, the distance between you and him will be increased. This will be harder for you to hit him after that.


I don't know much about much, but I do think that there must be an optimum orientation for your limbs in order to deliver a punch. I would therefore assume that in a combat situation, a push (that may just be a few inches' worth) may be useful in order to reorient yourself relative to your opponent in order to effectively deliver a punch. Or, of course, it may be used to give yourself a chance to get away, or to show someone you can handle him to give him a chance to back down without losing too much face by being pummelled on the ground?

As for fajin, isn't it a technique that can be applied with any limb or part of the body (as Xuesheng wrote)? It is a _way_ of hitting, a _way_ of pushing, a _way_ of expressing force in general that can be applied to a number of martial techniques?

It's just that it is generally _demonstrated_ by pushing someone away rather than hitting them?


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## blindsage (May 20, 2013)

ooooo, here's another cool one.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> fajin is not push ...


That's what I tried to say. 

Faiji used in 

- striking should be a force that go inside of your opponent's body without moving his physical body much.
- throwing should be a force that move your opponent's physical body. 

Since most Faiji is demonstrated by pushing your opponent physical body, people may think that Fajin is for throwing. IMO, Fajin is for striking.



dre2308 said:


> The push is more for throwing the opponent down in our style,


This was how this discussion started.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> if lineages matter...


Not trying to brag about my Taiji generation here. I'm just lucky to have a teacher who had very high generation in the Taiji system.

The generation thing may not be important in US but in TCMA, you are not suppose to question anybody above your generation. If you are above or the same as someone's generation, it's OK to make comment on that person. That's "Wude".


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## GaryR (May 20, 2013)

I would categorize that video as a demonstration of AN jing.  Pushing energy.  

As my instructor used to say, pushing somebody that far is only useful if you are going to push them into oncoming traffic!

It's a bad idea practically, you have taken an opportunity away from yourself.  You have already uprooted them and gained the upper hand, then lost it again by having to chase them down (or let them chase you down) to re-engage and start over. 
Even worse, you have maybe even given them the opportunity to deploy a weapon.  An jin can be good to push/up-root a short distance as someone said in-between combo's.  

Those demo's do show the instructor has a good root / body connection in one context, but not much else.  All too often internal teachers rely on such demo's to impress people, instead of display any actual fighting skills in response to a realistic attack.  

His push hands show that his waist/arm connection however is somewhat lacking, although clearly the man does have some skill.

Best,

G


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## Xue Sheng (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's what I tried to say.
> 
> Faiji used in
> 
> ...



You will also find it in the 8 gates if the 13 postures one of those being An (push)


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## Xue Sheng (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not trying to brag about my Taiji generation here. I'm just lucky to have a teacher who had very high generation in the Taiji system.
> 
> The generation thing may not be important in US but in TCMA, you are not suppose to question anybody above your generation. If you are above or the same as someone's generation, it's OK to make comment on that person. That's "Wude".




Are you in my lineage.....no.... and questioning someone on a webpage in the US or anywhere is fine and how is it you come out before 4th generation Yang?



Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the style of Taiji, I'm one generation above Chen Man Ching. I don't see the value of "push" in combat.



Are you saying you learned from Yang Jianhou or Yang Banhou or are you claiming your teacher learned from Yang Luchan. You are claiming 3rd generation here and I am just trying to figure out where that comes from. Or you are claiming or have learned from Yang Chengfu prior to Cheng Manching....care to explain that


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2013)

A friend of mine who had cross trained both white crane and Chinese wrestling. From what he told me, he only used his white crane Fajin in striking and not in throwing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> how is it you come out before 4th generation Yang?


This is my Taiji linkage: 

Yang Jianhou/Yang Banhou -> General Li Jinglin -> GM Chang Tung Sheng -> Kung Fu Wang

The interest part is since General Li Jinglin was a warload in China, both Yang Jianhou and Yang Banhou called him as brother and won't dare to treat him as student. That made Yang Jianhou, Yang Banhou and general Li as the same generation.

Since my teacher had defeated General Li in Taiji push hand, General Li was very interest to integrate SC into his Taiji. My teacher taught general Li SC and general Li taught my teacher Taiji. It was an exchange. That made general Li and my teacher the same generation. 

If Yang Jianhou, Yang Banhou, General Li Jinglin, and my teacher all belong to the same generation, that will make me the same generation as Yang Chen-Fu.


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## mograph (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is my Taiji linkage: Yang Jianhou/Yang Banhou -> General Li Jinglin -> GM Chang Tung Sheng -> Kung Fu Wang


If I click my right mouse button and something happens, do i have you to thank, sir?


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## blindsage (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not trying to brag about my Taiji generation here. I'm just lucky to have a teacher who had very high generation in the Taiji system.
> 
> The generation thing may not be important in US but in TCMA, you are not suppose to question anybody above your generation. If you are above or the same as someone's generation, it's OK to make comment on that person. That's "Wude".


 So, you're subtle implication is that no one should question you, even though you're wrong, because you somehow must know more the CMC because your generation is higher?  Yeah good luck with that.


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## blindsage (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's what I tried to say.
> 
> Faiji used in
> 
> ...


 That's not how this discussion started.  You posted a video of CMC not using fajin in order to make some unclear point about fajin, and then brought in your pet complaint about how you don't like pushing.  What are you talking about?


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## blindsage (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is my Taiji linkage:
> 
> Yang Jianhou/Yang Banhou -> General Li Jinglin -> GM Chang Tung Sheng -> Kung Fu Wang
> 
> ...



That's some pretty magical lineage math, and for TCMA unsurprisingly delusional.


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## Xue Sheng (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is my Taiji linkage:
> 
> Yang Jianhou/Yang Banhou -> General Li Jinglin -> GM Chang Tung Sheng -> Kung Fu Wang
> 
> ...



Yeah that's a mighty interesting little history you got there and a rather interesting way of looking at it to...but no.... sorry your you're 5th generation Yang at bests. By your math my shifu could potentially be 4th... and he always says he's 5th.....also once you integrate and change style names (Li) your not Yang anymore.

To be honest as far as the current Yang family is concerned nothing after General Li's students are in the Yang family lineage. As far as the Yang family is concerned my shifu is in the lineage but I'm not. As far as they are concerned I am 3rd generation Tung. Now if I go back and pursue Chen I could end up 20th generation Chen but who knows about that. But then Chen came before Yang and I'm, by Yang family standards Tung style, even though my shifu says I'm Yang, so I will question you all I want. Add to that we do not train with the same Shifu nor do we even fall under the same Shigong or even his teacher

You have a nice day


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## GaryR (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> ... you are not suppose to question anybody above your generation. If you are above or the same as someone's generation, it's OK to make comment on that person. That's "Wude".



Creative math on your lineage.  Regardless, nothing worse than a "lineage queen" as I like to call them.  

The above quote highlights all that is wrong with some people in TCMA.  We should show everyone respect, but we can and should question everything--it's called critical thinking, and not being a sheep. 

G


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## dre2308 (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's what I tried to say.
> 
> Faiji used in
> 
> ...



&#30332;(fa) means discharge, and &#21185;(jin) means power. To me, *&#30332;&#21185;*fajin can be displayed in any forms of martial art movement, whether it is a *push, strike or kick.* 

If you know White Crane, you must have heard of  *Fire Hand*, it has a push-like gesture, which has the effect of throwing and striking at the same time, and of course you can use* fajin* with it.

This is why I answer you at the beginning, what the master was trying to achieve is both *strike *and *throw*. 

Next you ask a different question: *" Push is neither punch nor throw. What's the purpose of "push"? 
*
So I then went on giving you some applications of* "push"* in our style, which has nothing to do with the previous fajin discussion. 

You do realize that you were asking 2 different questions, right?? or did I misunderstand what you were asking??



> A friend of mine who had cross trained both white crane and Chinese wrestling. From what he told me, he only used his white crane Fajin in striking and not in throwing.



really?? well, maybe you should go make more friends from White Crane cuz there are many different styles in White Crane. i can be your friend if you want. 
ha ha, just kidding.


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## dre2308 (May 20, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you push your opponent, the distance between you and him will be increased. This will be harder for you to hit him after that. Instead, you should pull your opponent into you and give him a "head on collision". That will fit the striking model:



Fair enough. however in our style, we will control how far the opponent is being pushed then chase him down immediately with the 2nd combo, and some foot works are also involved. 

for example, consider *3:46 to 3:55 *of the following video. the *"push"* in the combo is actually *fire hand(&#28779;&#25484*, which in real combat would also have the same effect of striking since you are hitting your opponent with the bone of your palm. 








> The throwing model will require 2 opposite directions force. One to push your opponent's upper body. One to pull his leg/legs.



true. how about the downward swirling motion/force? it is one point. if you consider dragging your opponent down to the ground as throw. 
good discussion.


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