# Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?



## Mr. President

I just saw the olympic gold medal match in London. An Italian beat a guy from Gabon. The thing that bothered me the most, is that they were so obsessed with scoring and not being scored on, there was hardly any Taekwondo. They just stood side to side, hovering on one leg, constantly looking for an opening to score. It was pitiful. 

I ran in a few people on the internet that said that Taekwondo's reputation has been damaged by the sporty side of Taekwondo, which is focused on scoring instead of fighting.

One of them said: It's a disgrace to the martial art and only soils it. These athletes have little to no technique and throw a flurry of weak kicks which though great in speed lack control and power.

You think it's true?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Taekwondo does have a negative rep, but IMO most people I've seen complain about it either differentiate between SD taekwondo and sport taekwondo or don't differentiate and give it a bad rep because of all the taekwondo mcdojos out there (not saying there aren't other mcdojos, just that those seem more prevalent).


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## Cyriacus

The reputation hasnt been ruined, or folks like us wouldnt still be in business.
Case rested.

Some folks have a supremacist attitude toward their systems which leads them to attempt to belittle as many things as possible in order to make theirs appear to be on a higher pedestal than its capable of. Nothing to it.


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## ralphmcpherson

Firstly, the athletes you see in the olympics are amazing martial artists, their technique is flawless, their kicks would hurt a lot (contrary to popular belief), they are incredibly fit and have reflexes up there with the best of any sport on earth, and you would not want to come accross an "elite" sports tkdist in a dark alley. BUT, has olympic tkd ruined the reputation of the art? Without a doubt it has. Unfortunately, olympic style tkd sparring appeals only to people who participate in it  (other than a few small exceptions), and it does nothing to showcase what tkd has to offer. My daughter (first gup tkd) watched a bit during the olympics and had to ask me what martial art it was.


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## Tengu

This is a good topic. As we all know TKD is both a martial art and a martial sport. I think sport TKD has definitely helped hurt the reputation of traditional TKD. However, it also made it more popular. The other thing that gives traditional TKD a bad rep is all the mcdojos. The reason there are so many is simply because there's so many practitioners. TKD is one of if not the most practiced martial art in the world. Your bound to get a certain number of bad practitioners. If (insert ANY martial art) had that many practitioners it would have more mcdojos and bad martial artist too. 

Olympic TKD is pretty bad in my opinion. Yes, they are great athletes and perhaps martial artist as well. But it is simply a game of tag. Sport TKD is just that. A sport. It is not a form of self defense.  Unfortunately a good number of TKD schools are very sport orientated. I firmly believe the WTF is the third reason why TKD has a bad rep among some martial artists. Even Choi Hong Hi has said it is an entirely different martial art. Traditional TKD is a very effective form of defense.


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## mango.man

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

You are watching an Olympic sport and you are not happy to see the athletes that are playing the game do what they need to in order to win a gold medal?

Why on Earth would you watch a Olympic sport with the expectation that the players in the game are not out there to try to win a gold medal and will do what they must under the rule set that they are given to reach that goal?


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## ralphmcpherson

mango.man said:


> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
> 
> Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
> 
> You are watching an Olympic sport and you are not happy to see the athletes that are playing the game do what they need to in order to win a gold medal?
> 
> Why on Earth would you watch a Olympic sport with the expectation that the players in the game are not out there to try to win a gold medal and will do what they must under the rule set that they are given to reach that goal?


I dont think anybody is blaming the athletes,  Im certainly not. It is the ruleset that is to blame, the competitors are just playing within what the ruleset allows. I think people have a bigger gripe with the ruleset than the players adhering to it.


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## ralphmcpherson

I think the biggest problem is that someone sitting at home watching olympic tkd on their tv thinks that is what tkd is. They think we all bounce around in class, with hands by our sides, throwing heaps of kicks from a distance with no punching. As tkdists we know that isnt the case, but whether rightly or wrongly it doesnt look good to the uninitiated, and therefore paints tkd in a bad light. So to an extent, olympic tkd has been bad for tkd's reputation in my opinion.


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## Jaeimseu

What reputation did Taekwondo have before that was ruined by Olympic Taekwondo? I think people ignorant of Taekwondo have probably damaged taekwondo's reputation on the Internet, since it's easy to find web content bashing Taekwondo, whether it's bashing kids with black belts, sport training, or mcdojangs.  In my experience, the people bashing it usually have no idea what they are talking about or practice a different type of Taekwondo that they perceive as the "right" or "true" Taekwondo. 

Whatever reputation Taekwondo has or doesn't have really doesn't bother me. Where I come from it has a reputation as a popular activity for kids primarily, and as a good form of exercise with some self defense benefits for adults. I don't think Olympic Taekwondo competition had much effect on that reputation.


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## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> What reputation did Taekwondo have before that was ruined by Olympic Taekwondo? I think people ignorant of Taekwondo have probably damaged taekwondo's reputation on the Internet, since it's easy to find web content bashing Taekwondo, whether it's bashing kids with black belts, sport training, or mcdojangs.  In my experience, the people bashing it usually have no idea what they are talking about or practice a different type of Taekwondo that they perceive as the "right" or "true" Taekwondo.
> 
> Whatever reputation Taekwondo has or doesn't have really doesn't bother me. Where I come from it has a reputation as a popular activity for kids primarily, and as a good form of exercise with some self defense benefits for adults. I don't think Olympic Taekwondo competition had much effect on that reputation.



I think prior to olympics tkd was just another asian sounding word and the general public think karate, kung fu, tkd, aikido etc are all just "deadly" arts. Now people say "oh tkd, isnt that the one with the bouncing and kicking". Even my father (who knows very little about martial arts other than boxing) commented that I should learn an art that teaches you to punch when he found out I did tkd. Why did he think theres no punching? He saw it in the olympics.


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## Jaeimseu

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think prior to olympics tkd was just another asian sounding word and the general public think karate, kung fu, tkd, aikido etc are all just "deadly" arts. Now people say "oh tkd, isnt that the one with the bouncing and kicking". Even my father (who knows very little about martial arts other than boxing) commented that I should learn an art that teaches you to punch when he found out I did tkd. Why did he think theres no punching? He saw it in the olympics.



This is really my point. I don't think Olympic Taekwondo has harmed any prior reputation. I had a co-worker before say to me, "have fun kicking the air," because his only previous experience was seeing someone doing poomse. He didn't know anything about Taekwondo, so his opinion of it was nothing to me.


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## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> This is really my point. I don't think Olympic Taekwondo has harmed any prior reputation. I had a co-worker before say to me, "have fun kicking the air," because his only previous experience was seeing someone doing poomse. He didn't know anything about Taekwondo, so his opinion of it was nothing to me.


I remember in highschool when i did karate and had mates who did tkd and I had no idea tkd was a " kicking art", I just thought it was another word for karate. Basically prior to oylmpics nobody knew anything about tkd.


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## Jaeimseu

Yeah, I don't remember knowing anything about Taekwondo before I started training. My only "knowledge" before that was probably from movies and TV. My sabumnim didn't go into the differences much, either, at the time. For beginners who were curious about the differences between arts it was basically explained that Kung fu is Chinese, karate is Japanese, and taekwondo is Korean.


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## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> Yeah, I don't remember knowing anything about Taekwondo before I started training. My only "knowledge" before that was probably from movies and TV. My sabumnim didn't go into the differences much, either, at the time. For beginners who were curious about the differences between arts it was basically explained that Kung fu is Chinese, karate is Japanese, and taekwondo is Korean.


Exactly the same experience I had. Even when I chose tkd to train in I had no idea the differences between it and any other art. Now (post olympics and ufc), I find people generally know tkd is the kicky one from the olympics, bjj and muay thai are the ufc ones, and know nothing about any othet arts.


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## Mr. President

I believe it's rather simple. The purpose is different. In real life, TKD is meant so you'll be able to defend yourself. In sport, you're there to score points. 

Which is why olympic TKD looks like a very hesitant game of tag. In that final I saw, the Italian landed a simple kick and then immediately looked at the ref to see if he got a point for it. It's seemed clear to me that the way they are fighting deprives the viewer of the beauty of TKD.


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## Jaeimseu

Mr. President said:


> I believe it's rather simple. The purpose is different. In real life, TKD is meant so you'll be able to defend yourself. In sport, you're there to score points.
> 
> Which is why olympic TKD looks like a very hesitant game of tag. In that final I saw, the Italian landed a simple kick and then immediately looked at the ref to see if he got a point for it. It's seemed clear to me that the way they are fighting deprives the viewer of the beauty of TKD.



Too often the players do look hesitant, but for good reason. Winning an Olympic gold medal can in some cases set you up for life. There is a lot of pressure to win. The athletes also tend to be evenly matched at that level. The slightest mistake can cost you the match, especially with the newer rules giving big points for head contact. If a world class Taekwondo player fought a match against a lower-tier player you would see a much less hesitant game, albeit likely a very short match. 

A lot also depends on how well the players know each other and how they match up physically and strategically. It would be nice if all the players made their fights entertaining/realistic, but just like in football/soccer, the primary goal is to win. Sometimes players will use "negative" tactics if they think it will help them win.


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## Cyriacus

Mr. President said:


> I believe it's rather simple. The purpose is different. In real life, TKD is meant so you'll be able to defend yourself. In sport, you're there to score points.
> 
> Which is why olympic TKD looks like a very hesitant game of tag. In that final I saw, the Italian landed a simple kick and then immediately looked at the ref to see if he got a point for it. It's seemed clear to me that the way they are fighting deprives the viewer of the beauty of TKD.



And yet, Olympic Boxing doesnt get the same rep.


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## Jaeimseu

Jaeimseu said:


> Too often the players do look hesitant, but for good reason. Winning an Olympic gold medal can in some cases set you up for life. There is a lot of pressure to win. The athletes also tend to be evenly matched at that level. The slightest mistake can cost you the match, especially with the newer rules giving big points for head contact. If a world class Taekwondo player fought a match against a lower-tier player you would see a much less hesitant game, albeit likely a very short match.
> 
> A lot also depends on how well the players know each other and how they match up physically and strategically. It would be nice if all the players made their fights entertaining/realistic, but just like in football/soccer, the primary goal is to win. Sometimes players will use "negative" tactics if they think it will help them win.



Plus, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Olympic Taekwondo may not look like "your" Taekwondo, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. I can watch a taekwondoin do nothing but stepping and have a good idea as to his/her competitive ability.


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## Mauthos

I think i all honesty Olympic TKD is a bit of a double edged sword.  I for one have never been a fan of TKD, but to be fair I openly admit that I am not really built for fast, flexible kicks and therefore a kicking dominated style was never going to have been for me.

However, the double edged sword bit.  I think on one hand it has damaged the reputation in regards that more experienced martial artist (not TKD practitioners) will see it as a watered down and possibly ineffective way of fighting.  Basically dismissing it out of hand without trying to see the sport side of TKD for what it is, a sport.

On the other hand, the Olympics have no doubt brought TKD to the masses, showing it and displaying it to literally millions who have probably never heard of it before, never thought of trying something like it before and possibly thought it was just another form of karate.  Along with a lot of kids and adults who have no doubt watched it and exclaimed 'I wanna be able to kick like that!' and probably rushed out and joined their local TKD club there and then.

So even though I will never train in TKD again, I can see some damage that Olympic style TKD may have done for the art, but the positives that have come from the Olympics far out weigh any damage that may have been done.  At the end of the day, nearly everyone on this site can no doubt find a TKD club near them, but the same can't be said for Wushu clubs, Wing Chun, Shotakan or krabi krabong for example.http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...Ybg4QSyuoDADg&ved=0CC8QvwUoAA&biw=815&bih=267


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## Tez3

Probably the best thing to do if something annoys you is not to watch it rather than bash an art that isn't yours. I don't like Olympic TKD particularly but I do know the difference between that and 'real' TKD. I only watch the Olympic TKD if there is a Brit competing but I'd also do that if Brits were competing in the synchronised swimming, one has to support your team lol! I wonder, does synchronised swimming ruin the reputation of 'race' swimming?


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## Cyriacus

Tez3 said:


> Probably the best thing to do if something annoys you is not to watch it rather than bash an art that isn't yours. I don't like Olympic TKD particularly but I do know the difference between that and 'real' TKD. I only watch the Olympic TKD if there is a Brit competing but I'd also do that if Brits were competing in the synchronised swimming, one has to support your team lol! I wonder, does synchronised swimming ruin the reputation of 'race' swimming?


Yes! It devalues the reputation of race swimmers everywere, as well as elite life savers who learn to swim in the hostile environments of the beach. Its like *insert hard deadly military art here* for the water, and olympic swimming is its TKD.

Please note that every single thing i just said was rubbish meant in the name of making fun of stereotypes. In all seriousness, the olympics just make TKD easier to pick on.


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## Earl Weiss

ralphmcpherson said:


> Firstly, the athletes you see in the olympics are amazing martial artists, their technique is flawless, their kicks would hurt a lot (contrary to popular belief), they are incredibly fit and have reflexes up there with the best of any sport on earth, and you would not want to come accross an "elite" sports tkdist in a dark alley. BUT, has olympic tkd ruined the reputation of the art? Without a doubt it has. Unfortunately, olympic style tkd sparring appeals only to people who participate in it  (other than a few small exceptions), and it does nothing to showcase what tkd has to offer. My daughter (first gup tkd) watched a bit during the olympics and had to ask me what martial art it was.



Well said. Worth seeing twice in this thread so I quoted it.


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## Earl Weiss

Tez3 said:


> ! I wonder, does synchronised swimming ruin the reputation of 'race' swimming?



The analogy fails. The average observer is well aware of the difference when it comes to those water sports.


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## Twin Fist

anyone that denies the damage done to TKD the martial art by TKD the olympic sport is either deluded or only ever speaks to other olympic style TKD people....

they wear blackbelts, just like actual martial artists, and when tey look stupid,it makes every TKD black belt, even real ones look stupid by association


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## Twin Fist

ralphmcpherson said:


> has olympic tkd ruined the reputation of the art? Without a doubt it has. Unfortunately, olympic style tkd sparring appeals only to people who participate in it  (other than a few small exceptions), and it does nothing to showcase what tkd has to offer. My daughter (first gup tkd) watched a bit during the olympics and had to ask me what martial art it was.



qft


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## Earl Weiss

Mauthos said:


> On the other hand, the Olympics have no doubt brought TKD to the masses, showing it and displaying it to literally millions who have probably never heard of it before, .



The Olympics have brought a certain sport called TKD to the masses.  What the masses make of that is not a good thing.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Mr. President said:


> The thing that bothered me the most, is that they were so obsessed with scoring and not being scored on, there was hardly any Taekwondo. They just stood side to side, hovering on one leg, constantly looking for an opening to score. It was pitiful.


They *really *just stood side by side hovering on one leg?  I seriously doubt that.  

One interesting thing in your criticism is that you mention that they were obsessed with "_*not* being scored on_."  A frequent criticism that I see of "sport" is that the participants seek to outscore and do things that would get them into some kind of trouble in a "real" fight.  I would think that from a self defense standpoint, you would laud the notion of striking without being struck.  



Mr. President said:


> I ran in a few people on the internet that said that Taekwondo's reputation has been damaged by the sporty side of Taekwondo, which is focused on scoring instead of fighting.
> 
> One of them said: It's a disgrace to the martial art and only soils it. These athletes have little to no technique and throw a flurry of weak kicks which though great in speed lack control and power.



Translation: "they could kick the crap outta me and I wouldn't be able to land a blow on them and I don't want to admit it, so I'll utter an uninformed critique that other uninformed people will take to heart in order to make my insecure little self feel better."



Mr. President said:


> You think it's true?


No.  The only thing that I feel has damaged the reputation of traditional martial arts in general and taekwondo in particular is the heavy commercialization.


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## Tez3

Earl Weiss said:


> The analogy fails. The average observer is well aware of the difference when it comes to those water sports.



That would be because it's not an analogy. The average observer on MT can tell the difference between Olympic TKD and 'other' TKD. I seriously and honestly believe the OP having disparaged his own style quite badly on another thread is now proceeding to do the same to TKD.


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## Mr. President

> And yet, Olympic Boxing doesnt get the same rep.



Boxing is different. There are no points awarded for a good punch. It's either KO or an all around better performance. In TKD you stand there with those shields on you, and if you place a kick on your opponent's torso it's 1:0. That's enough to turn it into a very hesitant, coy affair with only the occasional half-assed offensive attempt.



> They *really *just stood side by side hovering on one leg?  I seriously doubt that.



Watch it.


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## Tez3

Mr. President said:


> Boxing is different. There are no points awarded for a good punch. It's either KO or an all around better performance. In TKD you stand there with those shields on you, and if you place a kick on your opponent's torso it's 1:0. That's enough to turn it into a very hesitant, coy affair with only the occasional half-assed offensive attempt.
> 
> 
> 
> Watch it.



Have you watched Olympic boxing? Points indeed are scored for punches. http://boxing.about.com/od/amateurs/a/oly_rules.htm

_"A point is awarded for a scoring hit with marked part of the glove on the opponent's head (side or front) or body (above the belt)._
_A panel of five judges decides which hits are scoring hits.__Judges each have two buttons before them, one for each boxer, and they press the appropriate button when they believe a boxer delivers a scoring hit."

_


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## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> Firstly, *the athletes you see in the olympics are amazing martial artists, their technique is flawless, their kicks would hurt a lot (contrary to popular belief), they are incredibly fit and have reflexes up there with the best of any sport on earth, and you would not want to come accross an "elite" sports tkdist in a dark alley.*
> 
> BUT, has olympic tkd ruined the reputation of the art? Without a doubt it has.
> 
> Unfortunately, *olympic style tkd sparring appeals only to people who participate in it  (other than a few small exceptions), and it does nothing to showcase what tkd has to offer.* My daughter (first gup tkd) watched a bit during the olympics and had to ask me what martial art it was.


The bolded parts I agree with.  But I fail to see the connection between the Olympics ruining taekwondo's reputation and your daughter not recognizing what martial art it is.  

People not connecting what they see in the Olympics to other elements of taekwondo is not the same as ruining the art's reputation; WTF tournament TKD is a specialized element of the art that appeals, as you say, mainly to those who are involved in it.  What has been damaging to the art is rampant commercialization, which has hit arts outside of taekwondo, but which seems to have affected taekwondo more profoundly than it has other arts.  

This is part of a self perptetuating problem: the art is more popular so it attracts more of a commercial element.  This in turn propels the popularity of the art, as commercialization has the effect of making things more appealing to a broader cross section of people, but it also tends to bring with it elements that are of little or no value to the art (more belts, service contracts, after school programs, black belt clubs, leadership clubs, and various other elements that translate into more colorful uniforms, more patches, and of course, more money).  

The promotion of large numbers of students who have visibly not gained proficiency in the basic technical elements of their previous grades has been far more damaging to traditional martial arts in general and to taekwondo in particular.


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## Gorilla

Wow!!!!! A new topic!!!!!

TKD's reputation has not been ruined based by the Olympics. 

It has been ruined by jealous people who have no ability to to do well in the sport!

if Karate gets in the Olympics the same thing will happen!  Jealous people will bash it....

You will find allot of friends on this board sport TKD bashing in another Martial Art here!


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## Thousand Kicks

As a TKD practicioner for a little less than 20 years, I have always taken the stance that you cannot let outside criticism of your art detract fropm your enjoyment of your art, regardless of the style. When I tell people I study TKD (mostly in the WTF olympic style of TKD) I've heard everything from "That crap doesn't work" to "Wax on Wax off Daniel-san". I just nod and agree because nothing they say can take away my enjoyment of TKD. When I look back at what I've acheived, what I've learned, and the people I've met it is a huge disservice to boil my art down to "It's just a sport" or "It's not traditional". The purpose of martial arts it to create better people not just bada** fighters. 

Most people have no idea what they would really do in a self defense scenario as most people have never been in a real fight. Much less attacked by a person with intent to kill or seriously harm. I venture to guess your response would not be classified as TKD or boxing or Karate or anything it is simply survival (even if it is throwing dirt at your attacker and running away). There are no styles in real fights. Every martial art has weakness that can only be covered by studying more and different fighting styles. What you end up with is your own style that takes advantage of your best physical assets. 

The only thing I can remark on about current olypic style TKD is that you used to have to make contact with "tremoring impact" to score points. Matches routinely ended with 2-1 or 1-0 scores. So, fighters a decade ago hit much harder than they do now. I personally don't like the change, but it doesn't really take away from what you can do in a match.


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## Drasken

I find it funny. So many people say sport TKD is BS and that it hurts the style's reputation. But people swear by boxing and wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai. Most people would say MMA is more effective and matches are about KOs not about points.

I find this funny because people complain mostly about the rules. But this is to protect the people competing. And keep in mind that boxing, wrestling and MMA have very similar rules. I've personally seen a match in which someone fought slopilly and ended up getting beat to heck in e last 2 rounds, but managed to pull off a win through point scoring. Seen the same in boxing. Not to mention in boxing and MMA, pads are added to lessen impact of blows on knuckles and the face. But this is seen as ok.

Boxing started as a self defense style, not just a sport. In fact there are many punches that are considered illegal in a boxing or MMA match because of lethality. And long ago, matches were bare knuckle or hands were wrapped in leather. People died. If TKD matches were full contact with no rules, I guarantee that people would die in those as well.

My point is, yes there are Mcdojos out there that teach things wrong. There are schools that teach tournament martial arts only. But I would include many MMA gyms in this category as well if they teach only cage rules. But not everyone is interested in self defense. But that shouldn't reflect on the style itself.
People tend to attack other styles that they don't understand because it makes them feel better about their own technique. It's no different than the bullies on the school playground really.

I just really don't see why people feel the need to belittle others to make themselves feel better. Your opinion doesn't change the effectiveness of an art, any more than a few bad dojos change the fact that TKD is an effective, and let's not forget military, style. If styles weren't effective or usable in the real world, they wouldn't still exist. The fact that they'res used for sport only means that people want to use what they've learned and paid so much money for instead of preparing for that self defense situation that hopefully, and in all likelyhood, will never come.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> TKD's reputation has not been ruined based by the Olympics.
> 
> It has been ruined by jealous people who have no ability to to do well in the sport!


I maintain that TKD's reputation hasn't been ruined by the anything; that implies that its reputation is indeed ruined, which it is not.  It has certainly taken some hits, but I believe that that is due to it being caught in the general commercial martial arts scene along with a host of other arts.  Karate has certainly suffered as much as taekwondo if the internet is to be believed, but I would hardly say that karate's reputation is 'ruined' either.  

By comparison, Mel Gibson's reputation is ruined.  _So far as I know_, there is little to no demand for his services, hardly anybody wants to be associated with him, and regardless of his ability as an actor and a director, his name evokes near universal derision.


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## Tez3

It hasn't ruined it's reputation at all. The people who love Olympic TKD are happy with it, those like me who aren't keen on it don't take much notice as we know there's the what we think of as proper TKD which isn't 'tarnished' by the Olympic stuff as it's quite a bit diffferent. I'm not keen on the XMA stuff either but it doesn't diminish any style. It may mislead people a little who want to train it and think that when they go to a more traditional instructor they will be taught that but they'll either go look for XMA or stay and train. Either way they will have come into martial arts and then people like me can persuade them to do karate or MMA instead. :lol: I don't think jealousy comes into it, it's just horses for courses.


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## ralphmcpherson

Gorilla said:


> Wow!!!!! A new topic!!!!!
> 
> TKD's reputation has not been ruined based by the Olympics.
> 
> It has been ruined by jealous people who have no ability to to do well in the sport!
> 
> if Karate gets in the Olympics the same thing will happen!  Jealous people will bash it....
> 
> You will find allot of friends on this board sport TKD bashing in another Martial Art here!


I really wish it was as simple as people just being "jelous", but sadly we all know thats not the case.


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## ATC

Just got back from the US. Open. Not a single person on this board would last 1 round with any of the athletes at the event. Even the 15 year olds would put just about everyone on here to shame. Think what you will.


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## Kong Soo Do

ATC said:


> Just got back from the US. Open. Not a single person on this board would last 1 round with any of the athletes at the event. Even the 15 year olds would put just about everyone on here to shame. Think what you will.



I'm curious as to what you hope to accomplish with a comment like this?  You have not trained with the vast majority of members, just in this one section of the board.  Therefore you don't know the capabilities or experiences of these members.  Therefore your comment, while perhaps enthusiastic isn't warranted or even remotely factual.


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## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm curious as to what you hope to accomplish with a comment like this? You have not trained with the vast majority of members, just in this one section of the board. Therefore you don't know the capabilities or experiences of these members. Therefore your comment, while perhaps enthusiastic isn't warranted or even remotely factual.




Especially when we are against the OPs premise and are supporting TKD, seems an odd thing to say!


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## ralphmcpherson

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm curious as to what you hope to accomplish with a comment like this?  You have not trained with the vast majority of members, just in this one section of the board.  Therefore you don't know the capabilities or experiences of these members.  Therefore your comment, while perhaps enthusiastic isn't warranted or even remotely factual.



I have to agree. It was a very odd comment which can have no factual base. He should also consider many on this board dont train to fight like that, and the fact that nobody has doubted the fighters abilities, most negativity has been aimed at the ruleset, not the competitiors.


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## Steve

The thing about reputation is that it's external to the style.  I mean, it really depends upon what you think the reputation of TKD was before Olympic TKD, and also what you think the reputation is now.

From the outside looking in, it seems that many don't see a problem at all with TKD's current reputation.  Nothing wrong with that, at all.  But if the reputation of the art hasn't been ruined, then it can't have been ruined by Olympic TKD.

I personally don't enjoy Olympic style TKD.  Not my cup of tea.  But it hasn't influenced my opinion of the art at all.


----------



## Gorilla

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm curious as to what you hope to accomplish with a comment like this?  You have not trained with the vast majority of members, just in this one section of the board.  Therefore you don't know the capabilities or experiences of these members.  Therefore your comment, while perhaps enthusiastic isn't warranted or even remotely factual.



Allot of posts on this BBS are not factual...

I understand ATC's frustration...he is referring to one round in a WTF style match...his comment is very accurate!


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Gorilla said:


> Allot of posts on this BBS are not factual...
> 
> I understand ATC's frustration...he is referring to one round in a WTF style match...his comment is very accurate!


considering a large number of posters on this board dont spar or train in wtf sparring, he may well be accurate. But to come onto a board where he has not seen 99% of posters train, it is quite ludicrous to jump on and make the comment that most posters here would not last a round with a fifteen year old. That would be like me saying no posters on martial talk can do palgwe six as good as me. Its just such a silly thing to say that cant be backed up by facts. Its also out of context with the debate because no negativity is being aimed at the competitors, its the ruleset being questioned. "Even the fifteen year olds would put most on here to shame" is just such a silly thing to post on a martial arts forum.


----------



## Jaeimseu

ralphmcpherson said:


> considering a large number of posters on this board dont spar or train in wtf sparring, he may well be accurate. But to come onto a board where he has not seen 99% of posters train, it is quite ludicrous to jump on and make the comment that most posters here would not last a round with a fifteen year old. That would be like me saying no posters on martial talk can do palgwe six as good as me. Its just such a silly thing to say that cant be backed up by facts. Its also out of context with the debate because no negativity is being aimed at the competitors, its the ruleset being questioned. "Even the fifteen year olds would put most on here to shame" is just such a silly thing to post on a martial arts forum.



In the OP it was mentioned that the competitors had no technique and weak kicks. That doesn't have anything to do with the rules, plus it's an opinion given largely out of ignorance, which is probably what annoys people who know better. 

Far too often people post here with a holier than thou "I'm a real black belt/martial artist" attitude and the "debate" boils down to "if you don't agree with me you're delusional." 

This silly debate continues to resurface every so often and has done so for years. It would be nice if people would get over it and focus some positive energy into their own training instead of slagging what someone else is doing.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> In the OP it was mentioned that the competitors had no technique and weak kicks. That doesn't have anything to do with the rules, plus it's an opinion given largely out of ignorance, which is probably what annoys people who know better.
> 
> Far too often people post here with a holier than thou "I'm a real black belt/martial artist" attitude and the "debate" boils down to "if you don't agree with me you're delusional."
> 
> This silly debate continues to resurface every so often and has done so for years. It would be nice if people would get over it and focus some positive energy into their own training instead of slagging what someone else is doing.



Maybe I have missed something but I very rarely see anyone post here with a "holier than thou" attitude. In fact, its the good attitude of posters on martial talk that keeps me coming here. In this thread, for instance,  I haven't noticed anyone with a "my black belt is better than yours" attitude.  Except maybe ATC's post, which is quite ironic.


----------



## Drasken

ralphmcpherson said:


> Maybe I have missed something but I very rarely see anyone post here with a "holier than thou" attitude. In fact, its the good attitude of posters on martial talk that keeps me coming here.



That's what I was thinking. Most forums are arguments consisting of "MMA pwns traditional 'fake' martial arts" and then traditional martial artists retorting with the same kind of bullcrap. This forum has people that are generally respectful AND knowledgeable.
Kinda odd anyone is claiming otherwise.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Drasken said:


> That's what I was thinking. Most forums are arguments consisting of "MMA pwns traditional 'fake' martial arts" and then traditional martial artists retorting with the same kind of bullcrap. This forum has people that are generally respectful AND knowledgeable.
> Kinda odd anyone is claiming otherwise.


Exactly. Of the forums I frequent, the posters are the most respectful here by far. Actually going back through this thread I notice even those oposed to olympic sparring still make a point of commenting on the skill of the athletes involved.


----------



## Jaeimseu

I agree that most posters here are more respectful than on other sites, and I wasn't suggesting that this thread was particularly bad, but many threads have come and gone over the years where subtle and not so subtle negativity has been directed at Olympic/Kukkiwon Taekwondo, usually by people who don't know much about it but think they do. I agree, with one exception, this thread has been fairly tame.


----------



## Gnarlie

Mr. President said:


> I just saw the olympic gold medal match in London. An Italian beat a guy from Gabon. The thing that bothered me the most, is that they were so obsessed with scoring and not being scored on, there was hardly any Taekwondo. They just stood side to side, hovering on one leg, constantly looking for an opening to score. It was pitiful.



The rules drive the behaviour. Athletes in London 2012 were dealing with new scoring rules and relatively young electronic scoring technology. Nobody really knew what effect this combination would have on how the athletes played, but the intention was to encourage more action and increase participant safety - the ring was made smaller, head contact scored higher, more difficult spinning techniques scored higher, all of which intended to make the game more spectacular.

It is unfortunate that in contrast to the rule changes, the scoring technology is such that a good stopping side kick or cut kick with the front leg to the body can score, keeping the risk of being scored against to a minimum - in particular the length of the front leg side kick pretty much eliminates the possibility of a (more points) head kick counter, without the opponent having to sidestep first. Once the athletes and coaches discovered this, then it was only a matter of time before this easier, conservative front leg point poaching strategy was adopted by everyone.

That said, I don't think London damaged the reputation of Taekwondo. The game was sufficiently different to the last Olympics, and the commentators talked many times about how and why the scoring rules and technology had been introduced - with the intention of making the game more fair, more entertaining and safer.

I fully expect further rule and technology changes post-London, using the lessons learned to alter the rules and technology to discourage conservative front leg play. We'll see a different game again in Rio.



Mr. President said:


> I ran in a few people on the internet that said that Taekwondo's reputation has been damaged by the sporty side of Taekwondo, which is focused on scoring instead of fighting.



You can't believe everything you read on the internet. Olympic style TKD is a game, so of course it's focused on scoring instead of fighting. Football is focused on scoring rather than fighting. That doesn't make it a bad game.

There's much more to KKW TKD than this game, and for the most part those involved in Korean Martial Arts recognise that this is true.

Which reputation do you mean anyway? With other martial artists? Within Taekwondo? With the general public?

In my experience the general public don't know enough about martial arts to make any kind of judgment on the validity of what they see broadcast. Olympic footage sometimes prompts people to ask me questions about why, or how, or what, but it's usually only those within the martial arts who express negative opinions, and even then it's one of two groups in my experience:

1) People not involved in TKD or KMA - who have seen the Olympic game, think that's all there is to TKD, and neglect to inform themselves further before expressing their opinion as fact. "You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts" - Ricky Gervais

2) People who are or were involved in TKD (usually at low level) who can't and don't recognise that the basic skills being demonstrated by players of the game hint at a much deeper and richer martial knowledge and ability. If a person can't watch Olympic Taekwondo and recognise that one of those kicks can and will take the breath out of you, bruise you, and leave you struggling to respond, then they can't have done much contact work.



Mr. President said:


> One of them said: It's a disgrace to the martial art and only soils it. These athletes have little to no technique and throw a flurry of weak kicks which though great in speed lack control and power.



I defy that person to stand opposite a competent player and try to trade kicks. About 8 weeks training will get one to the point where one can compete for the first time in a low level comp, which is where most people try once, give up and then form their opinion. You probably won't get kicked much or make much clean contact at that level. Another couple of years and it's a different story. From experience I know just how much power is in those very very fast kicks, and also that the athletes are fully capable of aiming anywhere and controlling just how much power they want in the techniques.



Mr. President said:


> You think it's true?



No, and I think those who express that kind of opinion are under-informed and underexposed to the art of TKD. Get in the ring if you think it's easy, is all I would say to such a person.


----------



## Markku P

Jaeimseu said:


> What reputation did Taekwondo have before that was ruined by Olympic Taekwondo? I think people ignorant of Taekwondo have probably damaged taekwondo's reputation on the Internet, since it's easy to find web content bashing Taekwondo, whether it's bashing kids with black belts, sport training, or mcdojangs.  In my experience, the people bashing it usually have no idea what they are talking about or practice a different type of Taekwondo that they perceive as the "right" or "true" Taekwondo.
> 
> Whatever reputation Taekwondo has or doesn't have really doesn't bother me. Where I come from it has a reputation as a popular activity for kids primarily, and as a good form of exercise with some self defense benefits for adults. I don't think Olympic Taekwondo competition had much effect on that reputation.



I kind of agree with this. Most people don't know anything about Taekwondo and Olympics has help to get some publicity at least. That's better than nothing. Finally, what's wrong to be a sport? Boxing and Wrestling are sports and in my eyes they don't argue over effectiveness in self defense. ( and both sports are effective in self defense )


----------



## Tez3

I would like to point out, and I'm not attacking the OP here, that so far he's posted up that Aikido is rubbish and Praying Mantis style CMA was invented by someone who was a useless martial artist, as well as looking for the flashiest martial arts style. Along with this one about TKD perhaps we have a pattern here?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Gorilla said:


> Allot of posts on this BBS are not factual...
> 
> I understand ATC's frustration...he is referring to one round in a WTF style match...his comment is very accurate!



How is it accurate?  If one is frustrated then perhaps posting, out of frustration, isn't the best option.  If you think the comment(s) were factual, by what means and measure did you/he arrive at this conclusion?



			
				Jaeimseu said:
			
		

> I agree that most posters here are more respectful than on other sites, and I wasn't suggesting that this thread was particularly bad, but many threads have come and gone over the years where subtle and not so subtle negativity has been directed at Olympic/Kukkiwon Taekwondo, usually by people who don't know much about it but think they do.



Perhaps, but do you know who here has experience with OKKW and who doens't?  Having a negative or different opinion doens't necessarily mean you don't have experience with the topic.  It could mean that your willing to look (and speak) on the good, bad and ugly of the topic.  



			
				Markku P said:
			
		

> Finally, what's wrong to be a sport? Boxing and Wrestling are sports and in my eyes they don't argue over effectiveness in self defense. ( and both sports are effective in self defense )



I would argue (respectfully) that neither are optimal or even desireable for self-defense (and I'd be happy to [again] go over the reasons why in a different thread).  Like any sport art, training uses an artificial rule set within a controlled environment.  Like OKKW TKD the athlete can be in teriffice shape, great reflexes and really good at what they do...but what they do and how they train doesn't translate well into a real altercation.  Within the confines of a specific venue, these athletes can really be impressive.  I'm taking nothing away from what they do and how they do it...as long as it stays within that venue.  It is when some, that are perhaps too impressed with this venue, think it is effective for other venues that we have an issue.  

I don't want to have this thread go off on a SD vs. sport tangent, but wanted to response to Mark's comment.  Nothing wrong with it being a sport...that is what it is suppose to be.  Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> I would like to point out, and I'm not attacking the OP here, that so far he's posted up that Aikido is rubbish and Praying Mantis style CMA was invented by someone who was a useless martial artist, as well as looking for the flashiest martial arts style. Along with this one about TKD perhaps we have a pattern here?



I would say yes, there is a trend.


----------



## Cyriacus

Tez3 said:


> I would like to point out, and I'm not attacking the OP here, that so far he's posted up that Aikido is rubbish and Praying Mantis style CMA was invented by someone who was a useless martial artist, as well as looking for the flashiest martial arts style. Along with this one about TKD perhaps we have a pattern here?



Things would get mighty dull around here if it werent for some of these _amazing_ threads though.


----------



## Tez3

Cyriacus said:


> Things would get mighty dull around here if it werent for some of these _amazing_ threads though.



I must admit the Praying Mantis one has taken an amusing turn however the Aikido one starts off very negatively, style bashing in fact. This thread asked I think a legitimate question and has turned out mainly positive because of the attitude of the posters who don't style bash.


----------



## Gorilla

Almost all the posts on this thread have been ludicrous....




ralphmcpherson said:


> considering a large number of posters on this board dont spar or train in wtf sparring, he may well be accurate. But to come onto a board where he has not seen 99% of posters train, it is quite ludicrous to jump on and make the comment that most posters here would not last a round with a fifteen year old. That would be like me saying no posters on martial talk can do palgwe six as good as me. Its just such a silly thing to say that cant be backed up by facts. Its also out of context with the debate because no negativity is being aimed at the competitors, its the ruleset being questioned. "Even the fifteen year olds would put most on here to shame" is just such a silly thing to post on a martial arts forum.


----------



## Tez3

Not attacking posters much then.......


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Gorilla said:


> Almost all the posts on this thread have been ludicrous....



Interesting.  I'm curious, would this include your own or just the one's you don't agree with?


----------



## Manny

I think olimpic TKD helped to widespread the TKD, TKD is the martial art that has more practicioners world wide and this is because olimpics for sure, but this is where the good things end for me. Olimpic TKD has been bad to the Martial Art of TKD because as you have worte here is a tag game, yes is a fullcontact game usinf safety gear and with a rule set and the atlethes are supoer fast,super strong and with super reflexes but again it's just a game where the one that wins usually is because it overscores the other participant.

The martial art of TKD is more than kicking, it's more than olimpic or WTF sparring rules, it is much more but saddly the majority of dojangs only focus in olimpic sparring and leave the other part behind.

For example, I enjoy a lot the classes that older sambinims teach (men above 50 years old with a minimum of 30 years around TKD) their class are very rich in tradition, techs and all the stuff related to a martial art, in the other hand I dislike a lot the classes the young sambnims teach (2nd and 3rd degree black belts) that come from the post olimpic era, because all their efforts are over kicking... kickinhg high, flamboyant kicks and... kicking combos that are studid... yes thay can maybe score one or two points in the competition but in the streets are worthless.

If I opened my own dojang I would not have many students, because my way of see TKD, my way of teach TKD is so clasic that does not involve olimpic TKD and liked or not olimpic TKD sellls and sells very well.

Manny


----------



## Markku P

Manny said:


> I
> 
> If I opened my own dojang I would not have many students, because my way of see TKD, my way of teach TKD is so clasic that does not involve olimpic TKD and liked or not olimpic TKD sellls and sells very well.
> 
> Manny


 Success of your school has nothing to do what kind of Taekwondo you will teach. More important is the student service, great classes, good marketing and most of all proper planning. I have seen so many taekwondo schools who are teaching "traditional taekwondo" and they are very successful.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Manny said:


> I think olimpic TKD helped to widespread the TKD, TKD is the martial art that has more practicioners world wide and this is because olimpics for sure, but this is where the good things end for me. *Olimpic TKD has been bad to the Martial Art of TKD because as you have worte here is a tag game*,


I'm sorry, Manny, but this is simply not accurate.  Olympic taekwondo is no more a game of tag than is boxing, olympic or otherwise.

Honestly, the rest what you wrote mitigates against calling it a game of tag:



Manny said:


> *yes is a fullcontact game usinf safety gear and with a rule set and the atlethes are supoer fast,super strong and with super reflexes* but again it's just a game where the one that wins usually is because it overscores the other participant.



This can also be said of boxing, point karate, probably MMA (I am not familiar with the scoring system), kendo, kickboxing, and quite a few other martial arts that have a competitive element.  I agree with you that what you see in the Olympics is a game/sport.  But you cannot accurately call it a game of tag.  

As to whether or not the game and its accompanying rule set is good or bad, exciting to watch or boring as watching paint dry is a matter of one's personal tastes.  I get that you do not like it, and as I have said previously, it is not my cup of coffee either.

Now, I agree with your criticism of WTF/Olympic taekwondo when you say this: 


Manny said:


> The martial art of TKD is more than kicking, it's more than olimpic or WTF sparring rules, it is much more


In fact, I agree 100%.  WTF sport taekwondo only showcases a *very small *portion of the art.  

I'm okay with the rule set as it is, but I feel that adding pumsae to the Olympics would more than adequately show the art as more of a whole while also showcasing the elements that the WTF rule set emphasizes.

Now, if they made the rule set to resemble the matches in Best of the Best.... but like inclusion of pumsae in Olympic taekwondo, I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Gnarlie

What I find quite puzzling about this kind of thread is this: 

1) If you don't like something, don't do it.

2) If what you are doing isn't meeting your expectations, either don't do it, or find a way to change it so that it meets your expectations. 

Those that claim Taekwondo is either 'just a sport' or is ineffective yada yada yada simply simply haven't looked hard enough.  Whatever you are looking for IS probably out there within the realm of Taekwondo, you just have to know that it does exist, and where to look.

Finding and practising what you want is your responsibility. Don't complain about shortcomings in a martial art just because other people aren't bringing what you require to your doorstep.  You have to go out and find it.

For me that's what causes slipping standards in martial arts: lazy people wanting to be spoon-fed, and complaining that what they get on their doorstep isn't world class.  Well, duh!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gnarlie said:


> What I find quite puzzling about this kind of thread is this:
> 
> 1) If you don't like something, don't do it.
> 
> 2) If what you are doing isn't meeting your expectations, either don't do it, or find a way to change it so that it meets your expectations.
> 
> Those that claim Taekwondo is either 'just a sport' or is ineffective yada yada yada simply simply haven't looked hard enough.  Whatever you are looking for IS probably out there within the realm of Taekwondo, you just have to know that it does exist, and where to look.
> 
> Finding and practising what you want is your responsibility. Don't complain about shortcomings in a martial art just because other people aren't bringing what you require to your doorstep.  You have to go out and find it.
> 
> For me that's what causes slipping standards in martial arts: lazy people wanting to be spoon-fed, and complaining that what they get on their doorstep isn't world class.  Well, duh!


While there are legitimate criticisms that can be made of any martial sport, be it taekwondo, boxing, wrestling, judo, Bjj, MMA or whatever, most of what I see is people who feel it necessary to tear down what others do in order to somehow legitimize whatever it is that they do.  

On the TKD board here, I see a lot of the latter and very little of the former.


----------



## msmitht

No. Have any of you been to Korea lately?  There is no itf, tsd, ata(lol saw an american songham demo in busan and even the locals were laughing)or whatever you want to call traditional tkd. It does not exist there except for a few old guys who collect money from idiot Americans looking for roots to a system that were pulled a long time ago. 
Kkw tkd is the only style of tkd there.
If you want to point fingers at who is to blame for the state of tkd in the us then look to belt factories and tkd mcdojo's.


----------



## Tez3

However what I see on this thread is people who are saying that while it's not for them, Olympic TKD hasn't ruined TKDs reputation, simple as that.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

msmitht said:


> No. Have any of you been to Korea lately?  There is no itf, tsd, ata(lol saw an american songham demo in busan and even the locals were laughing)or whatever you want to call traditional tkd. It does not exist there except for a few old guys who collect money from idiot Americans looking for roots to a system that were pulled a long time ago.
> Kkw tkd is the only style of tkd there.
> *If you want to point fingers at who is to blame for the state of tkd in the us then look to belt factories and tkd mcdojo's.*



I said that back on page three:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> The bolded parts I agree with.  But I fail to see the connection between the Olympics ruining taekwondo's reputation and your daughter not recognizing what martial art it is.
> 
> People not connecting what they see in the Olympics to other elements of taekwondo is not the same as ruining the art's reputation; WTF tournament TKD is a specialized element of the art that appeals, as you say, mainly to those who are involved in it. * What has been damaging to the art is rampant commercialization, which has hit arts outside of taekwondo, but which seems to have affected taekwondo more profoundly than it has other arts*.
> 
> This is part of a self perptetuating problem: the art is more popular so it attracts more of a commercial element.  This in turn propels the popularity of the art, as commercialization has the effect of making things more appealing to a broader cross section of people, but it also tends to bring with it elements that are of little or no value to the art (more belts, service contracts, after school programs, black belt clubs, leadership clubs, and various other elements that translate into more colorful uniforms, more patches, and of course, more money).
> 
> The promotion of large numbers of students who have visibly not gained proficiency in the basic technical elements of their previous grades has been far more damaging to traditional martial arts in general and to taekwondo in particular.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> While there are legitimate criticisms that can be made of any martial sport, be it taekwondo, boxing, wrestling, judo, Bjj, MMA or whatever, most of what I see is people who feel it necessary to tear down what others do in order to somehow legitimize whatever it is that they do.
> 
> On the TKD board here, I see a lot of the latter and very little of the former.



I can't fully agree with you here Daniel.  I see a LOT of honest assesstments of the good, the bad and the ugly of TKD.  It has a lot of each (like many arts).  It isn't tearing an art down by pointing out the rampant commercialization in some segments of the art, particularly if they affect the overall integrity of the art.  It isn't tearing an art down by pointing out that they shouldn't be claiming to teach something that covers all venues.  And in fact I've seen, just in this thread, praise for certain aspects of sport TKD.  

If it is good, let's sing it's praises.

If it is bad, lets discuss it rationally and logically.

If it is ugly, let's not look the other way and pretend it doesn't exist.

For example...

Sport TKD can produce some highly conditioned people.  Good.

Some TKD schools promote children that aren't potty trained yet to black belt because mom and dad paid a lot of money.  Bad.

Some buy/sell rank like it was candy, sometimes based on ethnic discrimination or to enhance a profit margin.  Ugly.


----------



## Gorilla

Kong Soo Do said:


> Interesting.  I'm curious, would this include your own or just the one's you don't agree with?



All including mine! Not my best work!


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Gorilla said:


> All including mine! Not my best work!



I can't agree with you on this.  Just in this thread I see quite a few folks honestly expressing their thoughts/views/experience in an excellent manner.  And I say that both on those I agree with and those that I don't.  With a few exceptions this has been an interesting thread to both read and participate in.  

Even if I don't agree, I appreciate a well thought out post.  It might challenge me (in a positive way).  It might make me think about my own viewpoint.  Or I may disagree completely yet still tip my hat in appreciation for the person taking the time to share their thoughts.

Overall, I say bravo so far


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Some TKD schools promote children that aren't potty trained yet to black belt because mom and dad paid a lot of money.  Bad.
> 
> Some buy/sell rank like it was candy, sometimes based on ethnic discrimination or to enhance a profit margin.  Ugly.


That is not what I was thinking of.  

And while it is a legitimate gripe, it is not art specific.  When sale of rank happens in taekwondo, everyone agrees that it is a bad thing, but that is not a critique of the art.  Rather it is a critique of a business practice which has infected a good number of schools across multiple arts and across multiple organizations within those arts.  I will certainly agree with you that TKD has been affected more due to the much larger number of TKD schools as compared to schools of other arts.

Making the potty trained remark; are you _actually_ saying that this happens or are you just using hyperbole to say "child black belt?"  I have never seen, nor heard anyone else mention an instance where a KKW student who was too young to be potty trained was awarded a pum grade.  If you've _actually_ seen this, then I would agree that it is not good.  If you're just using hyperbole, please don't; call them child black belts.

Now, I _have_ personally seen kids with black belts (in various arts including TKD) who are not old enough to cross the parking lot without holding their mother's hand.  Usually kids between six and nine.  While I have mixed feelings on the principle of whether a child should be graded for a black belt, all (not nearly all, but all) of the schools where I have seen this happen are large, commercial schools in strip malls.  I never get to the point of considering the principle because I know that such schools utilize belts as a means of income generation (with the black being the most expensive) and that it is a purely financial consideration.  

Regarding belts and fees, I have posted many times that I am strongly opposed to belt testing fees and that aside from the federation registration fee, there should be no fee whatsoever for an ildan/shodan/pum grading.  I am also strongly opposed to the big song and dance that schools make of the black belt, but that is a topic for another discussion.


----------



## Metal

ralphmcpherson said:


> My daughter (first gup tkd) watched a bit during the olympics and had to ask me what martial art it was.




Seriously, then your daughter shouldn't be a 1st Kup in TKD.

No matter what style of TKD you train, from a certain point on (definitely when you're about to reach black belt status) you should be aware of the main TKD styles that are out there. 

Especially nowadays, since it's way easier to access information.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Metal said:


> Seriously, then your daughter shouldn't be a 1st Kup in TKD.


Personally, I think judging whether or not someone's child should hold the rank s/he holds is unwaranted.  His daughter passed whatever requirements her sabeom placed on her and undoubtedly earned her place in the dojang where she trains.  Let's keep the conversation away from the personal.

Having said that, I still cannot connect her unfamiliarity with Olympic taekwondo to Ralph's statement that Olympic taekwondo has ruined the reputation of taekwondo.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That is not what I was thinking of.
> 
> And while it is a legitimate gripe, it is not art specific.  When sale of rank happens in taekwondo, everyone agrees that it is a bad thing, but that is not a critique of the art.  Rather it is a critique of a business practice which has infected a good number of schools across multiple arts and across multiple organizations within those arts.  I will certainly agree with you that TKD has been affected more due to the much larger number of TKD schools as compared to schools of other arts.
> 
> Making the potty trained remark; are you _actually_ saying that this happens or are you just using hyperbole to say "child black belt?"  I have never seen, nor heard anyone else mention an instance where a KKW student who was too young to be potty trained was awarded a pum grade.  If you've _actually_ seen this, then I would agree that it is not good.  If you're just using hyperbole, please don't; call them child black belts.
> 
> Now, I _have_ personally seen kids with black belts (in various arts including TKD) who are not old enough to cross the parking lot without holding their mother's hand.  Usually kids between six and nine.  While I have mixed feelings on the principle of whether a child should be graded for a black belt, all (not nearly all, but all) of the schools where I have seen this happen are large, commercial schools in strip malls.  I never get to the point of considering the principle because I know that such schools utilize belts as a means of income generation (with the black being the most expensive) and that it is a purely financial consideration.



Now here is an example of a well thought out post that I can agree/disagree with yet still appreciate.  To begin with, I agree with what you're saying about it being more of a critique of a business practice than an art.  However, I would like to add that it can/does affect the art itself (any art not just TKD) depending on your perspective of the art.  As an example, from my perspective, a kata/form has in-depth information that can be gleaned from a practical perspective.  I have done this for years with various forms.  My belief is that a single form could last quite a long time training-wise.  What I see from the 'McDojang'...and even from the not-so-McDojang is a very cookie-cutter format for forms.  Learn a form/get a new belt.  I don't agree with this and think it is a detriment to the art.  From another perspective I think schools of this type put to much on rank and the gaining of rank and it creates a vicious circle.  It feeds into the fast-food mentality of our society.  In essence, many people are training for the outward appearance of rank and not the training itself.  It happens in many arts of course, but I will say that TKD is on the forefront.  Now, as you say it may be because there are more TKD schools than others.  Valid point.  But as a counter-point, just in my area a plethora of McTKD schools (and TSD) have come and gone with alarming rapidity over the years.  The economy is a factor, but the few 'old fashioned' schools I've talked about before pre-dated these Mc-schools by decades and are still here.  Some take 10 years to even consider BB and you're a white belt till you get to black.  YMMV in your area.

In regards to children, yes a little hyperbole on my part...but not by much.  We have seen even here on this board, people that have promoted 4 year olds to Poom rank (which means their training started at what....3 yrs old?).  And some of these same folks have stated that they think it should be a full BB at that age.  I think that screams commercialism and $!  Again that's just my viewpoint.  



> Regarding belts and fees, I have posted many times that I am strongly  opposed to belt testing fees and that aside from the federation  registration fee, there should be no fee whatsoever for an  ildan/shodan/pum grading.  I am also strongly opposed to the big song  and dance that schools make of the black belt, but that is a topic for  another discussion.



On this point we are 100% in agreement.  I have never paid for any test.  Conversely I have never charged for a test.  I do think BB is a milestone in one's training, but it isn't the pathway to being a super-ninja


----------



## Jaeimseu

Kong Soo Do said:


> Now here is an example of a well thought out post that I can agree/disagree with yet still appreciate.  To begin with, I agree with what you're saying about it being more of a critique of a business practice than an art.  However, I would like to add that it can/does affect the art itself (any art not just TKD) depending on your perspective of the art.  As an example, from my perspective, a kata/form has in-depth information that can be gleaned from a practical perspective.  I have done this for years with various forms.  My belief is that a single form could last quite a long time training-wise.  What I see from the 'McDojang'...and even from the not-so-McDojang is a very cookie-cutter format for forms.  Learn a form/get a new belt.  I don't agree with this and think it is a detriment to the art.  From another perspective I think schools of this type put to much on rank and the gaining of rank and it creates a vicious circle.  It feeds into the fast-food mentality of our society.  In essence, many people are training for the outward appearance of rank and not the training itself.  It happens in many arts of course, but I will say that TKD is on the forefront.  Now, as you say it may be because there are more TKD schools than others.  Valid point.  But as a counter-point, just in my area a plethora of McTKD schools (and TSD) have come and gone with alarming rapidity over the years.  The economy is a factor, but the few 'old fashioned' schools I've talked about before pre-dated these Mc-schools by decades and are still here.  Some take 10 years to even consider BB and you're a white belt till you get to black.  YMMV in your area.
> 
> In regards to children, yes a little hyperbole on my part...but not by much.  We have seen even here on this board, people that have promoted 4 year olds to Poom rank (which means their training started at what....3 yrs old?).  And some of these same folks have stated that they think it should be a full BB at that age.  I think that screams commercialism and $!  Again that's just my viewpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> On this point we are 100% in agreement.  I have never paid for any test.  Conversely I have never charged for a test.  I do think BB is a milestone in one's training, but it isn't the pathway to being a super-ninja



I can agree with most of what you guys are saying here, but I think it's important to note that a school's large size/income shouldn't  automatically be considered a negative, at least in my opinion. Sometimes people get upset about certain business practices that increase a school's revenue, yet if you own a business you'd better be increasing revenue at every opportunity (within ethical reason, of course).

Let me play devil's advocate on the issue of testing fees. I've seen schools that charge no testing fees yet charge higher tuition. Charging testing fees may allow a school to make extra money while not charging for a "service" not received, for example a student who isn't ready to test doesn't test, so they don't pay. Of course, this can be abused, but it doesn't have to be. 

Extra belts may fall into this same category, especially if children are your primary clientele. People often complain about child black belts. Adding extra ranks can lengthen the time to black belt while allowing the kids to still feel like they have accomplished something and are progressing through short-term goals to a long-term goal, while simultaneously adding revenue to the school. This can also be abused, but I would argue that it can also be win-win. 

The fact is, most small businesses fail. The best teacher in the world is likely to fail without finding ways to increase money coming into the school. I think the key is, is the instruction quality and is the service valuable? If the answer is yes, then money shouldn't equate to mcdojang. 

I realize that we often place MA up on a pedestal and want to maintain the purity of the arts, but I still think it's possible to use some of the supposedly "mcdojang" business practices and not provide a bad product. If a school is ripping people off, that's horrible and unethical, but if they are making money while providing a quality service to the students/parents, well that's good for all involved, isn't it?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Now here is an example of a well thought out post that I can agree/disagree with yet still appreciate.  To begin with, I agree with what you're saying about it being more of a critique of a business practice than an art.  However, I would like to add that it can/does affect the art itself (any art not just TKD) depending on your perspective of the art.


No disagreement here; I was simply saying that it is not art specific.  So yes, it can affect the art.  And yes, those within an art who engage in it are demeaning their art, whatever it may be.



Kong Soo Do said:


> As an example, from my perspective, a kata/form has in-depth information that can be gleaned from a practical perspective.  I have done this for years with various forms.  My belief is that a single form could last quite a long time training-wise.  What I see from the 'McDojang'...and even from the not-so-McDojang is a very cookie-cutter format for forms.  Learn a form/get a new belt.  I don't agree with this and think it is a detriment to the art.  From another perspective I think schools of this type put to much on rank and the gaining of rank and it creates a vicious circle.  It feeds into the fast-food mentality of our society.  In essence, many people are training for the outward appearance of rank and not the training itself.  It happens in many arts of course, but I will say that TKD is on the forefront.


No disagreement here either.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> Now, as you say it may be because there are more TKD schools than others.  Valid point.  But as a counter-point, just in my area a plethora of McTKD schools (and TSD) have come and gone with alarming rapidity over the years.  The economy is a factor, but the few 'old fashioned' schools I've talked about before pre-dated these Mc-schools by decades and are still here.  Some take 10 years to even consider BB and you're a white belt till you get to black.  YMMV in your area.


Taekwondo is very salable and marketable partly because a lot of people from Korea came to the US to make it such.  This, coupled with the MA craze in the 80's and the continual on again/off again fitness craze, attracts the entrepreneurial sorts, who open more schools, enjoy success, and attract more of the same.  This leads some school owners to have an 'if you can't beat 'em, join em' attituded, which makes the problem greater.

As for school longevity, most of the MA schools in my immediate area have been around for awhile and most of these are taekwondo.  I've seen a good number of MMA places come and go very quickly, and I've noticed an uptick in CMA schools within the past two years, some of which have been gone within a year, others of which are still going.  There are several more traditional schools and several McDojos that have been around for one to three decades, some for more than that.  I suspect that the continual development and expansion of the suburbs has been the major factor.



Kong Soo Do said:


> In regards to children, yes a little hyperbole on my part...but not by much.  We have seen even here on this board, people that have promoted 4 year olds to Poom rank (which means their training started at what....3 yrs old?).  And some of these same folks have stated that they think it should be a full BB at that age.  I think that screams commercialism and $!  Again that's just my viewpoint.


Child black belts, putting commercialism aside, is a subject that I have mixed feelings about.  In principle, I view a black belt as a progress marker and feel that a BB in the childs' class indicates his/her progress *in that class*.  However, due to the very poor understanding that the western public has about what a black belt represents, not to mention a lack of consensus within the arts themselves, very young children (under eight)_ in my opinion _should receive some kind of little ninja/tiny dragons rank that recognizes that they've completed the child's program before moving them into geub/kyu rankings.  

On the other hand, I am not inclined to pass judgement on those who differ with me on this issue.  A few years ago, I would have, but not now.



Kong Soo Do said:


> On this point we are 100% in agreement.  I have never paid for any test.  Conversely I have never charged for a test.  I do think BB is a milestone in one's training, but it isn't the pathway to being a super-ninja


A lot of things can be milestones.  A black belt promotion makes a very nice one, but I am not a fan of the big production that some schools make of it, and I am strongly opposed to treating it as a "graduation."


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## Jaeimseu

I just realized this isn't the mcdojang thread, and my last post has nothing to do with the Olympics or the reputation of Taekwondo. Oops...but I think it's an interesting discussion^^.


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## Daniel Sullivan

No, but the thread seems to have taken that turn.  Which is actually a positive in view.  Over-commercialization is really the biggest reputation threat to taekwondo (well, any martial art, but as we're talking about taekwondo specifically...).


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## Metal

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Personally, I think judging whether or not someone's child should hold the rank s/he holds is unwaranted.  His daughter passed whatever requirements her sabeom placed on her and undoubtedly earned her place in the dojang where she trains.  Let's keep the conversation away from the personal.
> 
> Having said that, I still cannot connect her unfamiliarity with Olympic taekwondo to Ralph's statement that Olympic taekwondo has ruined the reputation of taekwondo.




Well, this was not meant to be personal. That happens in a lot of clubs and I think the fact that lots of kids only get a limited view on TKD is more of a problem than the limitations of Olympic Sparring.

While kids who're learning Olympic sparring often only learn the basic techniques that are featured in the forms that they need to learn in order to get their next belt, other kids who learn 'traditional' or ITF Taekwondo aren't familiar with Olympic style sparring.
Yet those kids are the instructors of the future!

When I was a kid my instructor switched from ITF to Kukkiwon Taekwondo. We did Poomsae, but still did ITF style sparring. Nevertheless our instructor showed us that there was full contact Taekwondo with body protectors and explained the ruleset. So when Taekwondo was aired on TV during the 1988 Seoul Olympics I knew that this was Taekwondo. ;-) 


Overall I think Olympic Style sparring and competitons in general have helped Taekwondo to spread and become bigger and bigger. The sparring aspect makes it possible for schools, clubs and associations to have additional media coverage. And the sport in general got more attention since it was featured in the Olympics.

It's today's instructor's task to keep the knowledge about the variety and (true) history of Taekwondo alive. The problem here is that a lot of instructors don't know about the history and/or don't care about the variety of Taekwondo.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Metal said:


> Well, this was not meant to be personal. That happens in a lot of clubs and I think the fact that lots of kids only get a limited view on TKD is more of a problem than the limitations of Olympic Sparring.


I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but you did say that Ralph's daughter does not deserve to be first geub.  



Metal said:


> While kids who're learning Olympic sparring often only learn the basic techniques that are featured in the forms that they need to learn in order to get their next belt, other kids who learn 'traditional' or ITF Taekwondo aren't familiar with Olympic style sparring.
> Yet those kids are the instructors of the future!
> 
> When I was a kid my instructor switched from ITF to Kukkiwon Taekwondo. We did Poomsae, but still did ITF style sparring. Nevertheless our instructor showed us that there was full contact Taekwondo with body protectors and explained the ruleset. So when Taekwondo was aired on TV during the 1988 Seoul Olympics I knew that this was Taekwondo. ;-)
> 
> 
> Overall I think Olympic Style sparring and competitons in general have helped Taekwondo to spread and become bigger and bigger. The sparring aspect makes it possible for schools, clubs and associations to have additional media coverage. And the sport in general got more attention since it was featured in the Olympics.
> 
> It's today's instructor's task to keep the knowledge about the variety and (true) history of Taekwondo alive. The problem here is that a lot of instructors don't know about the history and/or don't care about the variety of Taekwondo.


Your experience has been different from Ralph's daughter's experience.  

I know adults who don't know anything about the art they practice except for what they see at their dojo.  Their purpose is to go and train.  Is it problematic that they don't see the bigger picture?  I don't know.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> A lot of things can be milestones.  A black belt promotion makes a very nice one, but I am not a fan of the big production that some schools make of it, and I am strongly opposed to treating it as a "graduation."



I only have a moment to comment, but wanted to do so on Daniel's statement.  I agree 100% in regards to the 'graduation' mentality because this promotes the viewpoint that the students has 'arrived' or 'finished' the training when in reality they (should) be ready to move beyond the basics into more advanced/in-depth concepts.  I think the common complaint is student retention in many arts, TKD being amoung them.  But when the focus is so strongly on belts/rank and the BB is seen as something it clearly shouldn't be...it is a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.  Rank is stressed and pushed and when they get the big, bad BB...in their view that is it and time to move on to something else.


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## ralphmcpherson

To suggest my daughter is not worthy of a first gup because she doesnt recognise olympic sparring is both ridiculous and offensive. She worked her back side off to get where she is and just because she doesn't recognise a form of tkd she doesnt even do is no reason to have her rank questioned.


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## Cyriacus

Metal said:


> Seriously, then your daughter shouldn't be a 1st Kup in TKD.
> 
> No matter what style of TKD you train, from a certain point on (definitely when you're about to reach black belt status) you should be aware of the main TKD styles that are out there.
> 
> Especially nowadays, since it's way easier to access information.



Boonhae, for every move in every form you know. Tell them to us.
Also for the Palgwe equivalents, not just Hyeung and Taegeuk. Not having learnt Palgwe forms is not an excuse. Not having thought about it is not an excuse.
If you cannot do this, you do not deserve to be a 2nd kup, because you arent aware of different forms and applications at your level that are done by different systems.
Its easy to access information. You should have no trouble. In fact, you should have already done it by now, being a 2nd kup.

Optionally, display more reasonable thinking, and ill make more reasonable comments


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Cyriacus said:


> Boonhae, for every move in every form you know. Tell them to us.
> Also for the Palgwe equivalents, not just Hyeung and Taegeuk. Not having learnt Palgwe forms is not an excuse. Not having thought about it is not an excuse.
> If you cannot do this, you do not deserve to be a 2nd kup, because you arent aware of different forms and applications at your level that are done by different systems.
> Its easy to access information. You should have no trouble. In fact, you should have already done it by now, being a 2nd kup.
> 
> Optionally, display more reasonable thinking, and ill make more reasonable comments


:roflmao:


----------



## Gorilla

The art is doing well and the sport is doing well...

I have been ripped on this board more than once....it is my 4th year on this BBS...and my kids are more involved than ever...they teach amd coach and compete at a elite level...they have made National teams in both TKD and Karate....they have traveled all over the world doing Tkd(Spain, Holland, Canada and Mexico).  My daughter will fight in Germany this year with AAU National Team.  She is the Womens Team Captain.  

My son will fight in Spain if he makes the Karate JR National team again!

Sport martials Arts Karate/Tkd hive a great reputation with me and the people I speak with...the only time I hear disparaging remarks are on the Internet.

It has been a great experience for my family...


----------



## andyjeffries

Jaeimseu said:


> Let me play devil's advocate on the issue of testing fees. I've seen schools that charge no testing fees yet charge higher tuition. Charging testing fees may allow a school to make extra money while not charging for a "service" not received, for example a student who isn't ready to test doesn't test, so they don't pay. Of course, this can be abused, but it doesn't have to be.



I charge for testing fees for kup ranks.  In the association we are in, students must go to the national dan gradings for poom/dan grades so they pay that fee.

We charge minimal fees for training (compared to other clubs in our region, our country and often compared to other common places around the world) and only a really small fee for testing, but basically it helps keep the club "in the black" so that we can keep it running.

As Jaeimseu said above, if students aren't ready, they don't test.  In all my years of Taekwondo I've only ever known one person fail a test (because they misunderstood that everyone that turns up to tests pass, they thought it was a foregone conclusion and wanted to prove that to their friends - they learnt!).  However, I've known LOTS of people that didn't test at a testing session even though they were time eligible because they weren't ready.  Those that are ready (and are therefore told so beforehand), come down, give their best and pass.


----------



## andyjeffries

Cyriacus said:


> Boonhae, for every move in every form you know. Tell them to us.
> Also for the Palgwe equivalents, not just Hyeung and Taegeuk. Not having learnt Palgwe forms is not an excuse. Not having thought about it is not an excuse.
> If you cannot do this, you do not deserve to be a 2nd kup, because you arent aware of different forms and applications at your level that are done by different systems.
> Its easy to access information. You should have no trouble. In fact, you should have already done it by now, being a 2nd kup.



While I agree Metal's comment about not being worth their rank was harsh/unnecessary, your comment above is ludicrous.

I personally agree that students should be aware of the wider Taekwondo community and history as they approach black belt.  One day they are going to be instructors and how can they talk to their students about other systems, other associations and history if they don't know anything about them. I don't think they should necessarily be able to demonstrate/teach areas of other systems.  I wouldn't necessarily phrase it in the inflammatory way Metal did though ;-)

Boonhae for example are commonly not taught in Kukki-Taekwondo dojang. The Kukkiwon Textbook makes nary a mention of them.  The Kukkiwon poomsae DVDs show a couple of examples for each pattern, but this seems to be more an "out of interest" thing than something actively taught as quite often these applications require slight technical adjustments to actually work.

So, saying that a 2nd Kup KKW should be able to demonstrate boonhae (which isn't generally taught in KKW Taekwondo) for patterns they don't is like saying that Ralph's daughter should not only be aware of WTF sparring, but should be able to demonstrate the intricacies of it based on her knowledge of her system.

We've had people crossover from ITF Taekwon-do to us over the years (and recently) and they are all easily taken apart under our rules until they learn the technique adjustments and strategy changes, then they become competitive.  This is no surprise - it's not the same system.  I liken it to badminton vs tennis, we use similar looking techniques, but the way we apply them and the strategies used are completely different.

So your analogy doesn't quite fit.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

andyjeffries said:


> While I agree Metal's comment about not being worth their rank was harsh/unnecessary, your comment above is ludicrous.
> 
> I personally agree that students should be aware of the wider Taekwondo community and history as they approach black belt.  One day they are going to be instructors and how can they talk to their students about other systems, other associations and history if they don't know anything about them. I don't think they should necessarily be able to demonstrate/teach areas of other systems.  I wouldn't necessarily phrase it in the inflammatory way Metal did though ;-)
> 
> Boonhae for example are commonly not taught in Kukki-Taekwondo dojang. The Kukkiwon Textbook makes nary a mention of them.  The Kukkiwon poomsae DVDs show a couple of examples for each pattern, but this seems to be more an "out of interest" thing than something actively taught as quite often these applications require slight technical adjustments to actually work.
> 
> So, saying that a 2nd Kup KKW should be able to demonstrate boonhae (which isn't generally taught in KKW Taekwondo) for patterns they don't is like saying that Ralph's daughter should not only be aware of WTF sparring, but should be able to demonstrate the intricacies of it based on her knowledge of her system.
> 
> We've had people crossover from ITF Taekwon-do to us over the years (and recently) and they are all easily taken apart under our rules until they learn the technique adjustments and strategy changes, then they become competitive.  This is no surprise - it's not the same system.  I liken it to badminton vs tennis, we use similar looking techniques, but the way we apply them and the strategies used are completely different.
> 
> So your analogy doesn't quite fit.


I would argue that tkd styles are just so different and abundant that it really isnt necessary to know everything about each flavour of tkd. We even have a club up the road calling themselves "freestyle tkd" and what they do looks absolutely nothing like any tkd I've seen. I would actually say shotokan looks significantly more like what I do than kkw tkd. I cant see any reason why my daughter should be required to know anything about kkw tkd which has nothing to do with what she studies.


----------



## andyjeffries

ralphmcpherson said:


> I would argue that tkd styles are just so different and abundant that it really isnt necessary to know everything about each flavour of tkd. We even have a club up the road calling themselves "freestyle tkd" and what they do looks absolutely nothing like any tkd I've seen. I would actually say shotokan looks significantly more like what I do than kkw tkd. I cant see any reason why my daughter should be required to know anything about kkw tkd which has nothing to do with what she studies.



Because it shows a wider world view of the art.  Like it or not, globally the majority of Taekwondo is Kukkiwon/WTF.  I think it's a responsibility of instructors to ensure their students are prepared with a background in to the art and an overview of what is happening with Taekwondo in the world.  I agree, I wouldn't worry about what any particular club does, but to show a complete lack of knowledge about the majority of practitioners using the same martial art name as you leaves the student unprepared to enter ranks where, in a lot of countries, they could open their own club and teach students of their own.

You're seeing it from the point of view as "she studies ABC Taekwon-do, she should only need to know that", I'm seeing it as "she's almost high enough to TEACH ABC Taekwon-do, she should at least be aware of DEF Taekwondo as her potential students will ask her about it".  Different view point.  

All too many people look only to their own dojang as being the gospel rather than wanting to know what the rest of the world is doing and how you fit in as a part of that family.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

andyjeffries said:


> Because it shows a wider world view of the art.  Like it or not, globally the majority of Taekwondo is Kukkiwon/WTF.  I think it's a responsibility of instructors to ensure their students are prepared with a background in to the art and an overview of what is happening with Taekwondo in the world.  I agree, I wouldn't worry about what any particular club does, but to show a complete lack of knowledge about the majority of practitioners using the same martial art name as you leaves the student unprepared to enter ranks where, in a lot of countries, they could open their own club and teach students of their own.
> 
> You're seeing it from the point of view as "she studies ABC Taekwon-do, she should only need to know that", I'm seeing it as "she's almost high enough to TEACH ABC Taekwon-do, she should at least be aware of DEF Taekwondo as her potential students will ask her about it".  Different view point.
> 
> All too many people look only to their own dojang as being the gospel rather than wanting to know what the rest of the world is doing and how you fit in as a part of that family.



This would be a very interesting topic for a new thread. You would laugh if you knew how little my seventh dan instructor knows about kkw tkd. He has a good knowledge of boxing, shotokan, kumdo, jujutsu and hapkido yet I explained to him a couple of years ago what the kkw was and he had literally never heard of it. He is computer illiterate though


----------



## Cyriacus

andyjeffries said:


> While I agree Metal's comment about not being worth their rank was harsh/unnecessary, your comment above is ludicrous.



It was meant to be.



> I personally agree that students should be aware of the wider Taekwondo community and history as they approach black belt.  One day they are going to be instructors and how can they talk to their students about other systems, other associations and history if they don't know anything about them.



Sure - But what if his daughter just wants to learn Taekwondo? If she wants to become an instructor, when shes learning how to be an instructor, she can pick up all the other pieces.



> I don't think they should necessarily be able to demonstrate/teach areas of other systems.  I wouldn't necessarily phrase it in the inflammatory way Metal did though ;-)



So, if you take a white belt who asks a 1st kup about KKW Standard TKD, and that practitioner doesnt know anything about it, they should be demoted?



> Boonhae for example are commonly not taught in Kukki-Taekwondo dojang. The Kukkiwon Textbook makes nary a mention of them.  The Kukkiwon poomsae DVDs show a couple of examples for each pattern, but this seems to be more an "out of interest" thing than something actively taught as quite often these applications require slight technical adjustments to actually work.



Is learning about the WTF a part of non-KKW/WTF training regiments?
Is Boonhae a part of the KKW regimen?
When you learn Goju Ryu Karate, do they make you aware of all the other kinds of Karate out there as a part of your training? Replace Goju Ryu with any other way shape or form of Karate. Enough to identify them on sight? Isnt it all the same 'community'?

One might say, its more of an 'out of interest' thing, than something actively taught. 



> So, saying that a 2nd Kup KKW should be able to demonstrate boonhae (which isn't generally taught in KKW Taekwondo) for patterns they don't is like saying that Ralph's daughter should not only be aware of WTF sparring, but should be able to demonstrate the intricacies of it based on her knowledge of her system.



Aye - But the logic is similar. Im curious to know how many folks had to look up what Boonhae meant, or who didnt bother. The logic is that you should know about it _even though it is not a part of what you are doing_.



> We've had people crossover from ITF Taekwon-do to us over the years (and recently) and they are all easily taken apart under our rules until they learn the technique adjustments and strategy changes, then they become competitive.  This is no surprise - it's not the same system.  I liken it to badminton vs tennis, we use similar looking techniques, but the way we apply them and the strategies used are completely different.



Yep. But how many Tennis Players know more about Badminton than the fact that it exists?
I, for example, used to play tennis but honestly dont even know what badminton is. It was never a thing at school, and ive only heard it mentioned on tv. Does that mean i was never deserved to be called a tennis player? (I know thats different, but you made the comparison.  )



> So your analogy doesn't quite fit.



When i added the part about Palgwe, i added that out of curiosity. How many people dont know about Palgwe, or know about it but have never seen them? I mean, if i took some TKD folks from this site at random, and without telling them what it was showed them Palgwe, assuming they didnt see the TKD uniforms, how many of them would go "Oh, thats Palgwe", and how many wouldnt know what it is? Palgwe are a part of TKD, just as much as the KKW and WTF as the ITF is to the WTF and KKW. If Ralphs daughter doesnt deserve to be a 1st kup because she cant identify olympic TKD, does that mean any of us who cant identify Palgwe dont deserve our ranks either? Even if that isnt what were learning or doing, just because there are other TKD places where that IS what theyre learning and doing?
Im open to discussing it, but i think my analogy fit the discussion swell.


----------



## Mauthos

> Boonhae, for every move in every form you know. Tell them to us.
> Also for the Palgwe equivalents, not just Hyeung and Taegeuk. Not having  learnt Palgwe forms is not an excuse. Not having thought about it is  not an excuse.
> If you cannot do this, you do not deserve to be a 2nd kup, because you  arent aware of different forms and applications at your level that are  done by different systems.
> Its easy to access information. You should have no trouble. In fact, you should have already done it by now, being a 2nd kup.
> 
> Optionally, display more reasonable thinking, and ill make more reasonable comments



I am glad that Cyriacus confirmed it as I was beginning to think I was the only one that understood that his comment was meant to be absurd, to me it was quite obvious he wasn't serious with the statement, pretty much confirmed by:



> Optionally, display more reasonable thinking, and ill make more reasonable comments


----------



## andyjeffries

Cyriacus said:


> It was meant to be.



Then you hit the mark, my man! ;-)



Cyriacus said:


> Sure - But what if his daughter just wants to learn Taekwondo? If she wants to become an instructor, when shes learning how to be an instructor, she can pick up all the other pieces.



But I would argue that preparing someone for black belt is preparing them to be an instructor.  Otherwise you are giving someone a black belt rank but not the ability to teach that comes with that.



Cyriacus said:


> So, if you take a white belt who asks a 1st kup about KKW Standard TKD, and that practitioner doesnt know anything about it, they should be demoted?



I don't think their instructor should have let them get there without at least a passing nod to who they are and how they differ.



Cyriacus said:


> Is learning about the WTF a part of non-KKW/WTF training regiments?
> Is Boonhae a part of the KKW regimen?



It depends what you mean by "learning about" in the first question.  I would say that knowing about it and how it differs is very useful and should be taught.

Boonhae isn't part of learning at most kukkiwon schools.  The Kukkiwon sets a base curriculum and if you want to add other stuff in, then go for it.  So I wouldn't say that Boonhae is 0% taught in KKW schools, but it's certainly minor.



Cyriacus said:


> When you learn Goju Ryu Karate, do they make you aware of all the other kinds of Karate out there as a part of your training? Replace Goju Ryu with any other way shape or form of Karate. Enough to identify them on sight? Isnt it all the same 'community'?



I disagree with this.  There are two major forms of Taekwondo that form >95% of all Taekwondo.  Knowing about two styles isn't too much to ask (on either side of the fence).   There are at least 15 different major styles of Karate.  To be honest thought, I would expect near black belts in Karate to be familiar with the most popular styles and be able to recognise them based on their characteristic movements - but then again I'm not a Karate instructor.



Cyriacus said:


> Aye - But the logic is similar. Im curious to know how many folks had to look up what Boonhae meant, or who didnt bother. The logic is that you should know about it _even though it is not a part of what you are doing_.



And I agree.  I know what boonhae means and I'd be happy to recognise it.  I don't necessarily think that my students would know the term nor know other people actively practice it.  But they would recognise ITF sine-wave and ITF-style sparring.



Cyriacus said:


> Yep. But how many Tennis Players know more about Badminton than the fact that it exists?
> I, for example, used to play tennis but honestly dont even know what badminton is. It was never a thing at school, and ive only heard it mentioned on tv. Does that mean i was never deserved to be called a tennis player? (I know thats different, but you made the comparison.  )



Wow, I'm SHOCKED!  I guess it's a regional thing, but in the UK I would argue that Badminton is probably more popular than tennis.  Most Leisure Centres have many Badminton courts but rarely more than one tennis court if that.  For example, at our local leisure centre there are 8 Badminton courts, with another hall having 8 roll out mats for playing Badminton on if they need them but no tennis courts.

So maybe my analogy only works well for UKers 



Cyriacus said:


> When i added the part about Palgwe, i added that out of curiosity. How many people dont know about Palgwe, or know about it but have never seen them? I mean, if i took some TKD folks from this site at random, and without telling them what it was showed them Palgwe, assuming they didnt see the TKD uniforms, how many of them would go "Oh, thats Palgwe", and how many wouldnt know what it is? Palgwe are a part of TKD, just as much as the KKW and WTF as the ITF is to the WTF and KKW.



I agree and I wouldn't recognise them as Palgwae, but I would identify the practitioner as Taekwondo and likely identify them as ITF/Kukkiwon based on their movement style.  I wouldn't necessarily expect an ITFer to recognise the specific techniques a WTF-player is using, but I would expect them to know it's WTF Taekwondo.



Cyriacus said:


> If Ralphs daughter doesnt deserve to be a 1st kup because she cant identify olympic TKD, does that mean any of us who cant identify Palgwe dont deserve our ranks either? Even if that isnt what were learning or doing, just because there are other TKD places where that IS what theyre learning and doing?
> Im open to discussing it, but i think my analogy fit the discussion swell.



Again, just to be clear, I'm not saying that students should recognise the specifics of other styles or appreciate the detail or be able to teach them and I'm not saying they aren't worth their grade if they can't (I think it's the teacher's responsibility to teach and the student's to learn), but they should be able to pick the other style out of a line-up ;-)


----------



## Cyriacus

andyjeffries said:


> Then you hit the mark, my man! ;-)



Do i get a prize...?



> But I would argue that preparing someone for black belt is preparing them to be an instructor.  Otherwise you are giving someone a black belt rank but not the ability to teach that comes with that.



So, if you want to get a black belt, you have to learn how to be an instructor? What if you dont want to be an instructor?



> I don't think their instructor should have let them get there without at least a passing nod to who they are and how they differ.



Ill come back to that.



> It depends what you mean by "learning about" in the first question.  I would say that knowing about it and how it differs is very useful and should be taught.
> 
> Boonhae isn't part of learning at most kukkiwon schools.  The Kukkiwon sets a base curriculum and if you want to add other stuff in, then go for it.  So I wouldn't say that Boonhae is 0% taught in KKW schools, but it's certainly minor.



I agree with all that - But it is as much a part of TKD as the WTF is to an ITF school, learning and training wise.



> I disagree with this.  There are two major forms of Taekwondo that form >95% of all Taekwondo.  Knowing about two styles isn't too much to ask (on either side of the fence).   There are at least 15 different major styles of Karate.  To be honest thought, I would expect near black belts in Karate to be familiar with the most popular styles and be able to recognise them based on their characteristic movements - but then again I'm not a Karate instructor.



Well, i cant really confirm or deny that. If a Karate persons reading this, confirm or deny!
But alas, how does it make it any different that theres less total systems of TKD? Id like to know if you think it would be unacceptable for a Shotokan student to be unable to identify a Kenpo student, for example, just by seeing a sparring match.



> And I agree.  I know what boonhae means and I'd be happy to recognise it.  I don't necessarily think that my students would know the term nor know other people actively practice it.  But they would recognise ITF sine-wave and ITF-style sparring.



Thats good - But that reflects your desire to teach that side of things to them.



> Wow, I'm SHOCKED!  I guess it's a regional thing, but in the UK I would argue that Badminton is probably more popular than tennis.  Most Leisure Centres have many Badminton courts but rarely more than one tennis court if that.  For example, at our local leisure centre there are 8 Badminton courts, with another hall having 8 roll out mats for playing Badminton on if they need them but no tennis courts.
> 
> So maybe my analogy only works well for UKers



Ill take you on your word 



> I agree and I wouldn't recognise them as Palgwae, but I would identify the practitioner as Taekwondo and likely identify them as ITF/Kukkiwon based on their movement style.  I wouldn't necessarily expect an ITFer to recognise the specific techniques a WTF-player is using, but I would expect them to know it's WTF Taekwondo.



Aha - So, if a Shotokan Karateka saw a Kyokushin Karateka doing Kata, should they be able to identify the form based on the movements found in Kata? Or is this just an idea thats unique to TKD, that only in TKD do you need to be able to identify things on sight simply because its easy to do so?



> Again, just to be clear, I'm not saying that students should recognise the specifics of other styles or appreciate the detail or be able to teach them and I'm not saying they aren't worth their grade if they can't (I think it's the teacher's responsibility to teach and the student's to learn), but they should be able to pick the other style out of a line-up ;-)



Well, how would Ralphs daughter identify Olympic TKD? By the uniforms, gear, and ruleset. The same could be said of the ITF. But like i asked above - Is this a rule limited only to TKD where its easier to identify systems simply because its easy? Does the rule not apply to 15+ styles of Karate just because its more difficult? Is the rule different just because its TKD, that you need to be able to identify other systems of TKD on sight?
Now, by the same guideline, if a WTF practitioner had never seen ITF forms before, then they saw an ITF practitioner doing forms without sinewave, would they be able to identify the system without basing it on the uniform being worn? How is that much different from identifying whos system is doing some sparring? Hence the Karate references 

So, you cant identify Palgwe on sight, which is fine. Because its not what youre learning, in your system. But your system should teach how to identify sparring systems on sight? I pose that its not much different from identifying forms on sight. What if they were a GTF practitioner? Or a part of an independent organisation? Or a Karate school with similar movement? How does it benefit your capability to learn and practition TKD?


----------



## Metal

I apologize if my comment was too harsh. Yet it sometimes takes harsh comments to stimulate a discussion. ;-)


When I said Ralph's daughter shouldn't be a 1st kup it was not meant to slate her technique or the effort that she put into getting there and it was not meant as a personal insult. Since I don't know her or her school I can't judge that anyway. She passed the grading and fullfilled whatever was required to pass the test, yet I criticize her instructor and her dad (who's apparently a Taekwondo practicioner) since they didn't inform her about the wider picture of Taekwondo.

Does she need to know the details about WTF competitions? No, but she should be aware of its existence.

While not every blackbelt will become an instructor, kup grades still look up to them and may address questions. 


Oh, and while in Korea probably hardly anybody underneath the age of 50 knows and cares about the Chan Hon Hyongs and it's close to 100% Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo, that doesn't mean that everywhere else in the world people should lose track of each other's style.


----------



## Gorilla

I don't think that Ralph's daughter not knowing anything about Olympic Tkd is a reflection on her or sport Tkd.

It might say that Ralph's school is a little isolated. Maybe?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> I don't think that Ralph's daughter not knowing anything about Olympic Tkd is a reflection on her or sport Tkd.
> 
> It might say that Ralph's school is a little isolated. Maybe?



I would agree with this 100%.  

Olympic TKD's reputation isn't ruined, or even damaged, because some schools choose to ignore it.  
And students in those schools are no less worthy of whatever grades they hold just because they are unaware of a competitive sport that they don't practice.


----------



## ETinCYQX

The question is, why is the bigger picture relevant to a black belt? Why should Ralph's daughter know anything about Olympic Taekwondo if she doesn't train it? 

I couldn't tell the difference between an ITF match and a Karate or whatever match, and I sure don't think I need to.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Metal said:


> I apologize if my comment was too harsh. Yet it sometimes takes harsh comments to stimulate a discussion. ;-)
> 
> When I said Ralph's daughter shouldn't be a 1st kup it was not meant to slate her technique or the effort that she put into getting there and it was not meant as a personal insult. Since I don't know her or her school I can't judge that anyway. She passed the grading and fullfilled whatever was required to pass the test, yet I criticize her instructor and her dad (who's apparently a Taekwondo practicioner) since they didn't inform her about the wider picture of Taekwondo.
> *
> please don't take this the wrong way but on what grounds do you criticize Ralph? Because you, personally, think she should know about wtf sparring, that makes it a critical thing to know?*
> 
> Does she need to know the details about WTF competitions? No, but she should be aware of its existence
> 
> While not every blackbelt will become an instructor, kup grades still look up to them and may address questions. yle
> *
> about a completely different style? Maybe but why should she be able to answer? I wouldn't be able to answer questions on ITF sparring. *
> 
> Oh, and while in Korea probably hardly anybody underneath the age of 50 knows and cares about the Chan Hon Hyongs and it's close to 100% Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo, that doesn't mean that everywhere else in the world people should lose track of each other's style
> *
> Ok, so do you know anything about Judo? It's the same question. *



few counterpoints in bold.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ETinCYQX said:


> The question is, why is the bigger picture relevant to a black belt? Why should Ralph's daughter know anything about Olympic Taekwondo if she doesn't train it?
> 
> I couldn't tell the difference between an ITF match and a Karate or whatever match, and I sure don't think I need to.


I would ask the same question.

Most students that I have encountered view the black belt in terms of their personal achievement in the art they practice.  Very few students of the martial arts (relative to the number of people who train in them at any level, from kids to senior citizens) have aspirations to be instructors or coaches.  I don't know the percentage of competitors, but most students that I have met personally do not compete.

Knowing the bigger picture is nice, but it isn't why they train.  And most of us have enough to keep track of in our lives that keeping track of other MA styles/orgs is simply not on the menu.


----------



## Jaeimseu

I think maybe we forget sometimes that most people are not like us. By us I mean people posting on a martial arts forum. The fact that someone is here and feels confident enough to participate/contribute here sets them apart from other MAists. We are exposed to a wider variety of info related to MA than most students who may get all of their info from their own local instructor. No matter what we disagree about, we all have that in common.


----------



## Metal

ETinCYQX said:


> *please don't take this the wrong way but on what grounds do you criticize Ralph? Because you, personally, think she should know about wtf sparring, that makes it a critical thing to know?*



Well, he probably doesn't like WTF sparring and wanted to underline the fact that it's so different from 'traditional' TKD by stating that his daughter didn't even recognize it on TV. And if somebody likes it or not, WTF Taekwondo is in fact the biggest style of Taekwondo out there. It's the style that's in the Olympics and therefore it's the main style that's featured in the media.

And it's easy to tell that it's TKD due to the body protectors and headgear. WTF competition has a unique look that's easy to spot.
It's easier than distinguishing some forms of Karate competition from ITF sparring. ;-)


As a father or instructor you shouldn't keep your kids and/or students ignorant. At one point they'll go to YouTube and type in Taekwondo and will wonder why there's so much stuff that's different from what they're doing. At one point they'll meet other people who're practising Taekwondo and will wonder why those people are doing things differently.






ETinCYQX said:


> *about a completely different style? Maybe but why should she be able to answer? I wouldn't be able to answer questions on ITF sparring.*



It's a style that goes by the same name and has the same roots. And it's not about knowing each and every detail, it's about being aware of the existence. 

You may not be able to answer deitailled questions on ITF sparring, yet you know that there is ITF and you probably know that they wear hand and foot safetys and don't fight with body protectors.





ETinCYQX said:


> *Ok, so do you know anything about Judo? It's the same question.*



When I watch the Olympics on TV and see Judo I can tell that it's Judo. ;-)


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Metal said:


> Well, he probably doesn't like WTF sparring and wanted to underline the fact that it's so different from 'traditional' TKD by stating that his daughter didn't even recognize it on TV. And if somebody likes it or not, WTF Taekwondo is in fact the biggest style of Taekwondo out there. It's the style that's in the Olympics and therefore it's the main style that's featured in the media.
> 
> And it's easy to tell that it's TKD due to the body protectors and headgear. WTF competition has a unique look that's easy to spot.
> It's easier than distinguishing some forms of Karate competition from ITF sparring. ;-)
> 
> 
> As a father or instructor you shouldn't keep your kids and/or students ignorant. At one point they'll go to YouTube and type in Taekwondo and will wonder why there's so much stuff that's different from what they're doing. At one point they'll meet other people who're practising Taekwondo and will wonder why those people are doing things differently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a style that goes by the same name and has the same roots. And it's not about knowing each and every detail, it's about being aware of the existence.
> 
> You may not be able to answer deitailled questions on ITF sparring, yet you know that there is ITF and you probably know that they wear hand and foot safetys and don't fight with body protectors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I watch the Olympics on TV and see Judo I can tell that it's Judo. ;-)


my daughter doesnt  wear head gear, rarely wears a hogu, we dont wear v kneck uniforms, our sparring looks vastly different to wtf sparring, we wear boxing gloves, we never spar for points and our sparring is about 50/50 punches to kicks. You may think wtf is easily recognisable,  but to my daughter it isnt.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Metal said:


> Well, he probably doesn't like WTF sparring and wanted to underline the fact that it's so different from 'traditional' TKD by stating that his daughter didn't even recognize it on TV. And if somebody likes it or not, WTF Taekwondo is in fact the biggest style of Taekwondo out there. It's the style that's in the Olympics and therefore it's the main style that's featured in the media.



There is no WTF style of taekwondo. The WTF is not a style. The WTF sets no standards. It does no rank testing. It awards no rank. WTF tournament sparring is just one subset of Kukkiwon taekwondo.

So apparently it's not as easy to know what you're watching as you seem to think.


----------



## Cyriacus

Metal said:


> One: *Well, he probably doesn't like WTF sparring and wanted to underline the fact that it's so different from 'traditional' TKD by stating that his daughter didn't even recognize it on TV.
> *
> Two:* And it's easy to tell that it's TKD due to the body protectors and headgear. WTF competition has a unique look that's easy to spot.*
> *It's easier than distinguishing some forms of Karate competition from ITF sparring. ;-)*
> 
> 
> Three: *As a father or instructor you shouldn't keep your kids and/or students ignorant.*
> 
> Four: *It's a style that goes by the same name and has the same roots. And it's not about knowing each and every detail, it's about being aware of the existence. *
> 
> Five: *You may not be able to answer deitailled questions on ITF sparring, yet you know that there is ITF and you probably know that they wear hand and foot safetys and don't fight with body protectors.*
> 
> Six: *When I watch the Olympics on TV and see Judo I can tell that it's Judo. ;-)*



One:
Pure speculation. If anything its no different to showing how radically different various Karate systems are. Though for the life of me, if it werent for the big "ITF TAEKWONDO *Korean Words*" on the back of ITF uniforms, as a person who used to train ITF, i couldnt tell the difference between Shotokan Color Belt Competitions and ITF Color Belt Competitions. Unless i see a throw on the Shotokan side, because i watch them on youtube. I didnt need someone to educate me.

Two:
So, now you only need to be aware of the WTF because its a big thing and because its easier to distinguish? So tell me: Does a WTF/KKW practitioner need to learn enough about the ITF to be able to recognise it, due to it being easy to recognise without the uniforms with the big "ITF TAEKWONDO" logos on the back, or does this only apply to the WTF?

As a slight cut in, i dont remember Ralph saying anything about 'traditional' Taekwondo. Given how recently it came about, id argue that the idea of Taekwondo being traditional is highly subjective.

Three:
Ignorant by your standards, maybe. I researched other Martial Arts because i wanted to know about them. She obviously hasnt even tried to look, or shed already know of her own volition.

Four:
I refer back to my Karate reference. You cant pick and choose when to apply what defines ignorance within your overarching 'style' just because its easier or harder. And since were bringing up roots, Taekwondo practitioners of all ways shapes and forms should have to learn to recognise Shotokan Karate as well.
Just as all Shotokan Karate practitioners should learn to recognise Kung Fu. Unless we pick and choose were we apply this belief to only apply when its easy.

Another cut in. The WTF are not the only organisation that wear Hogu. At this point, were getting to the stage were you see kick volleys, techniques, and figure it out that way.

Five:
Refer back to one. As a former ITF person, i couldnt tell the difference between the ITF and Shotokan Karate without either seeing a throw, or reading the logo on the uniforms. I wouldnt be able to do either of those things if no throwing took place, and both wore plain uniforms.

Six:
I rest my case with this, directed to you and any Judo practitioners reading this. Tell me: Could you tell the difference on sight between Kodokan Judo and IJF Judo?


----------



## Metal

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no WTF style of taekwondo. The WTF is not a style. The WTF sets no standards. It does no rank testing. It awards no rank. WTF tournament sparring is just one subset of Kukkiwon taekwondo.
> 
> So apparently it's not as easy to know what you're watching as you seem to think.




When it comes to Taekwondo competition you can clearly say 'WTF style' in order to distiguish it from other forms of TKD competition (like ITF sparring for example). The WTF is regulating the competition ruleset, not the Kukkiwon.

Actually you don't even need to hold a Kukkiwon Dan in order to compete at WTF events and the WTF can indeed award rank:

http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/site/rules/competition.html

"Article 4 Contestant
[...]
1.3 Holder of Taekwondo Dan/Poom certificate issued by the Kukkiwon or WTF"


----------



## Dirty Dog

Metal said:


> When it comes to Taekwondo competition you can clearly say 'WTF style' in order to distiguish it from other forms of TKD competition (like ITF sparring for example). The WTF is regulating the competition ruleset, not the Kukkiwon.



You can say lots of things. That doesn't mean they're correct.



Metal said:


> Actually you don't even need to hold a Kukkiwon Dan in order to compete at WTF events and the WTF can indeed award rank:
> 
> http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/site/rules/competition.html
> 
> "Article 4 Contestant
> [...]
> 1.3 Holder of Taekwondo Dan/Poom certificate issued by the Kukkiwon or WTF"



The WTF experimented with issuing Dan ranks, briefly. As I recall, the requirement for a WTF belt was earning a KKW belt. They no longer do this, but will still grandfather in the handful of people who got them.


----------



## Metal

Dirty Dog said:


> You can say lots of things. That doesn't mean they're correct.
> 
> 
> 
> The WTF experimented with issuing Dan ranks, briefly. As I recall, the requirement for a WTF belt was earning a KKW belt. They no longer do this, but will still grandfather in the handful of people who got them.



National governing bodies of the WTF can still issue their own dan certificates and do so. 


When it come to sparring/competiton part of TKD:

Olympic TKD style = WTF style = Kukkiwon style


When it comes to Taekwondo in general:

Kukkiwon style &#8800; WTF style &#8800; Olympic TKD style


----------



## Dirty Dog

Metal said:


> National governing bodies of the WTF can still issue their own dan certificates and do so.



In which case you hold a Dan rank from that governing body, NOT the WTF. And you'll still need to get the KKW certificate to compete in WTF-sponsored events.


----------



## Metal

Cyriacus said:


> One:
> Pure speculation. If anything its no different to showing how radically different various Karate systems are. Though for the life of me, if it werent for the big "ITF TAEKWONDO *Korean Words*" on the back of ITF uniforms, as a person who used to train ITF, i couldnt tell the difference between Shotokan Color Belt Competitions and ITF Color Belt Competitions. Unless i see a throw on the Shotokan side, because i watch them on youtube. I didnt need someone to educate me.
> 
> Two:
> So, now you only need to be aware of the WTF because its a big thing and because its easier to distinguish? So tell me: Does a WTF/KKW practitioner need to learn enough about the ITF to be able to recognise it, due to it being easy to recognise without the uniforms with the big "ITF TAEKWONDO" logos on the back, or does this only apply to the WTF?
> 
> As a slight cut in, i dont remember Ralph saying anything about 'traditional' Taekwondo. Given how recently it came about, id argue that the idea of Taekwondo being traditional is highly subjective.
> 
> Three:
> Ignorant by your standards, maybe. I researched other Martial Arts because i wanted to know about them. She obviously hasnt even tried to look, or shed already know of her own volition.
> 
> Four:
> I refer back to my Karate reference. You cant pick and choose when to apply what defines ignorance within your overarching 'style' just because its easier or harder. And since were bringing up roots, Taekwondo practitioners of all ways shapes and forms should have to learn to recognise Shotokan Karate as well.
> Just as all Shotokan Karate practitioners should learn to recognise Kung Fu. Unless we pick and choose were we apply this belief to only apply when its easy.
> 
> Another cut in. The WTF are not the only organisation that wear Hogu. At this point, were getting to the stage were you see kick volleys, techniques, and figure it out that way.
> 
> Five:
> Refer back to one. As a former ITF person, i couldnt tell the difference between the ITF and Shotokan Karate without either seeing a throw, or reading the logo on the uniforms. I wouldnt be able to do either of those things if no throwing took place, and both wore plain uniforms.
> 
> Six:
> I rest my case with this, directed to you and any Judo practitioners reading this. Tell me: Could you tell the difference on sight between Kodokan Judo and IJF Judo?




Funny how people wanna go into details while I originally stated that a 1st Kup in Taekwondo should recognize Taekwondo competition that's braodcasted on TV as part of the Olympic Games.

It's not rocket science. All someone needs to do in order to know about it is showing some interest in the art that you practise (even just reading the Taekwondo Wikipedia article would help) or having an instructor who lets people look beyond their own noses.

And I mean, we're talking about the Olympics. When you're watching the Olympics and you see the Taekwondo competition then it's not that hard to tell that's it's not Judo, boxing or wrestling. ;-)


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> my daughter doesnt  wear head gear, rarely wears a hogu, we dont wear v kneck uniforms, our sparring looks vastly different to wtf sparring, we wear boxing gloves, we never spar for points and our sparring is about 50/50 punches to kicks. You may think wtf is easily recognisable,  but to my daughter it isnt.


Personally, I suspect that unless you practice a particular style or have had exposure to it through friends or family, picking it out from amid a sea of styles whose uniforms look, to the uninitiated, pretty much the same, would be a challenge for anyone.  If I did not post here or take an active interest in knowing about MA other than my own, I doubt that I would be able to I.D. BJJ as distinct from Judo.  There are enough uniform variations within an art, and for non practitioners, they all look pretty much the same.

You may have said previously, but what style of TKD do you and your daughter practice?


----------



## Cyriacus

Metal said:


> Funny how people wanna go into details while I originally stated that a 1st Kup in Taekwondo should recognize Taekwondo competition that's braodcasted on TV as part of the Olympic Games.
> 
> It's not rocket science. All someone needs to do in order to know about it is showing some interest in the art that you practise (even just reading the Taekwondo Wikipedia article would help) or having an instructor who lets people look beyond their own noses.
> 
> And I mean, we're talking about the Olympics. When you're watching the Olympics and you see the Taekwondo competition then it's not that hard to tell that's it's not Judo, boxing or wrestling. ;-)



Details are whats relevant. Ignoring them is ignorance.

I know what you originally stated. What do you think im talking about?
And yeah, all you need to do is show an interest in the art you practice. Then look it up online and find different arts that go by the same name that have nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with your training.
So, is this about the Olympics, specifically? Is your rank in TKD influenced by your knowledge of Olympic sports? Does that make you better at doing your own thing, or is rank about knowledge of things that have nothing to do with you?


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## ETinCYQX

Cyriacus said:


> Six:
> I rest my case with this, directed to you and any Judo practitioners reading this. Tell me: Could you tell the difference on sight between Kodokan Judo and IJF Judo?



If I count, Kodokan is the system and IJF is a sport governing body. Much like Kukkiwon and WTF.


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## Cyriacus

ETinCYQX said:


> If I count, Kodokan is the system and IJF is a sport governing body. Much like Kukkiwon and WTF.



I executed a technique known as the 'trick question', to see if he knew that. I planned on pointing that out later, but nows as good a time as any.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Metal said:


> Funny how people wanna go into details while I originally stated that a 1st Kup in Taekwondo should recognize Taekwondo competition that's braodcasted on TV as part of the Olympic Games.
> 
> It's not rocket science. All someone needs to do in order to know about it is showing some interest in the art that you practise (even just reading the Taekwondo Wikipedia article would help) or having an instructor who lets people look beyond their own noses.
> 
> And I mean, we're talking about the Olympics. When you're watching the Olympics and you see the Taekwondo competition then it's not that hard to tell that's it's not Judo, boxing or wrestling. ;-)



I suppose that it depends on what you think of being first geub/first dan.  If you're holding up a first dan black belt as being a minimum of four years, no kids allowed, and as an exemplar of the art, then I would agree with your perspective.  

But in Kukki taekwondo, a first dan is essentially a certificate of completion of the beginner class.  In Korea, the time to ildan is one year.  It simply is not that big a deal.  

Also, for most people, unless you practice it or have exposure through a friend or a family member, the Olympics might be the only time you'd see shihap kyorugi, so it isn't as if non KKW/WTF practitioners or non practitioners in general are going to see enough of it to be familiar with it.  Most people also lack the incentive to go looking it up on the web.


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## Jaeimseu

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I suppose that it depends on what you think of being first geub/first dan.  If you're holding up a first dan black belt as being a minimum of four years, no kids allowed, and as an exemplar of the art, then I would agree with your perspective.
> 
> But in Kukki taekwondo, a first dan is essentially a certificate of completion of the beginner class.  In Korea, the time to ildan is one year.  It simply is not that big a deal.
> 
> Also, for most people, unless you practice it or have exposure through a friend or a family member, the Olympics might be the only time you'd see shihap kyorugi, so it isn't as if non KKW/WTF practitioners or non practitioners in general are going to see enough of it to be familiar with it.  Most people also lack the incentive to go looking it up on the web.



I totally agree with this. In America, at least, I think Taekwondo is most often something that you or your kids do two or three times a week. For most, it's not a way of life, or even the most important event of the day. It's just one activity of many. People who are driven to compete at a higher level or motivated to search out deeper information about their own Taekwondo system or others are not the norm, at least in my experience.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Jaeimseu said:


> I totally agree with this. In America, at least, I think Taekwondo is most often something that you or your kids do two or three times a week. For most, it's not a way of life, or even the most important event of the day. It's just one activity of many. People who are driven to compete at a higher level or motivated to search out deeper information about their own Taekwondo system or others are not the norm, at least in my experience.


From what I understand, in Korea taekwondo is like baseball and is mostly for kids and teens.  Adults leave it behind unless they're competitors, coaches, or instructors.  

In the US, I also see a lot of longtime martial arts practitioners who start in taekwondo and move into other arts from there.  Some come back to it, others find an art that is a better fit for them, but it was taekwondo that got them started in the first place.


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## Kframe

Edit to add, my keyboard is messed up, please forgive my massive wall of text. If a mod could fix it id be greatfull.    For me Olympic tkd was another nail in the coffin. As I have stated in other posts, since I was a kid(31 now)  I wanted to do Tkd like my father did. It wasn't till recently that my situation improved to were I could do full time MA. So I started researching tkd and were to train. That's when I started finding videos of TKD guys getting smashed by various other styles in full contact matches, aka MMA style.  That's when I first encountered this video. 



  That video and the many others I found, all showcased the same things to me.   1 Tkd could not punch or use there hands in any meaningfull way. 2. they all fight with there hands down and attempt not defense of the upper body and more importantly the head. 3 tkd does not teach  take down defense.   The final nail for me was when I attended my first mma gym and they head coach was a 2nd dan wtf tkd. He had abandon all tkd except for a few kicks and some of the foot work. He added in boxing and bjj. In fact he wont even teach most of the kicks he knows and refuses to teach any kind of deflecting.(aka "blocking")  That for me ended my search for a tkd school, so I could do it like my father. IT sad because my dad was in many self defense fights, and used his tkd effectively.  Its tobad I cant find the level of quality teaching he was able to receive.  Its sad for me, its like watching a dream fade away, because I know ill never be able to trust it even if I did find that mythical tkd school with quality instruction in all ranges of unarmed combat, including takedown defense.  So I have come up with a plan. Im currently learning what my new coach calls combative jujitsu. Its Japanese jujitsu, and we also do boxing/kickboxing and standing grappling as well.   After I get my blackbelt then ill consider joining a local tkd school, knowing that getting taken down isn't going to screw me. Sure no one on the street wants to get taken down but you need to be ready for it and be able to deal with being there.


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## ETinCYQX

Ok, since you've apparently read less than nothing on these boards so far, you're more than welcome to try and take me down or punch me in the face. 

People who get stuck on "they don't punch the face" have no real understanding of combat, at all.


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## chrispillertkd

Gorilla said:


> It might say that Ralph's school is a little isolated. Maybe?



Hmm, that's not really the impression I've gotten from his posts.

Pax,

Chris


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## Twin Fist

the irony .................




ETinCYQX said:


> Ok, since you've apparently read less than nothing on these boards so far, you're more than welcome to try and take me down or punch me in the face.
> 
> People who get stuck on "they don't punch the face" have no real understanding of combat, at all.


----------



## msmitht

I find this totally hilarious. If you go to Korea, like I said before, you will not find any other style of tkd except kkw tkd! The Olympic movement took over any other form of tkd was absorbed or dissolved.


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## Jaeimseu

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I understand, in Korea taekwondo is like baseball and is mostly for kids and teens.  Adults leave it behind unless they're competitors, coaches, or instructors.
> 
> In the US, I also see a lot of longtime martial arts practitioners who start in taekwondo and move into other arts from there.  Some come back to it, others find an art that is a better fit for them, but it was taekwondo that got them started in the first place.



That is largely the case. Our dojang is a bit of an enigma, as we teach adults only.


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## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> the irony .................



If you have a point to make, make it


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## jks9199

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  

jks9199
Asst. Administrator
*


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## Twin Fist

ETinCYQX said:


> If you have a point to make, make it


you sort of made my point for me.

lets put it this way, the irony of someone from a sport only application, and one with a dubious reputation at best when it comes to self defense value making statements about other people not knowing much about "combat" could rip a hole in the fabric of space/time

the fact that the person making said statement isnt old enough to even go in a bar much less get in a bar fight is almost funny..

i am gonna clue you up Buddy

in the real world bad guys almost always try to knock you down and or out by throwing a haymaker at your head. 

THAT is the reality of combat

now this is totally off topic, but you brought it up, so it would be rude not to address it. Olympic boxing isnt considered a joke because it is still boxing. Olympic TKD resemsbles nothing else on the planet. And there is nothing martial art-y to it, to anyone watching that isnt already familiar with it


thats sort of the whole problem in public perception with olympic tkd in the first place


it isnt anything people can look at and recognize as a legitimate martial art.

Not trying to be rude, but you DID ask....


----------



## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> you sort of made my point for me.
> 
> lets put it this way, the irony of someone from a sport only application, and one with a dubious reputation at best when it comes to self defense value making statements about other people not knowing much about "combat" could rip a hole in the fabric of space/time



Ninety percent of what I do is spar. Even KKW-style sparring still forces one to deal with timing, distance and positioning which is far more important than whether or not you're allowed to punch to the face. I've said that before and I stand by that, my experience has never showed me otherwise. 



Twin Fist said:


> the fact that the person making said statement isnt old enough to even go in a bar much less get in a bar fight is almost funny..



You're gonna have to find some other way to try and discredit me I'm afraid. 19 is the drinking age in Canada. 



Twin Fist said:


> i am gonna clue you up Buddy



Implying a different opinion suggests ignorance is hardly the best tactic here. I don't remember suggesting you were an idiot. 



Twin Fist said:


> in the real world bad guys almost always try to knock you down and or out by throwing a haymaker at your head.
> 
> THAT is the reality of combat



Believe it or not, I've had that happen to me. I dealt with it just fine. It's not that different from dealing with being kicked, which I have done quite literally millions of times. Against 20 something well conditioned athletes who can actually fight. Makes a 40 something bar slob pretty easy to deal with. 



Twin Fist said:


> now this is totally off topic, but you brought it up, so it would be rude not to address it. Olympic boxing isnt considered a joke because it is still boxing. Olympic TKD resemsbles nothing else on the planet. And there is nothing martial art-y to it, to anyone watching that isnt already familiar with it
> 
> thats sort of the whole problem in public perception with olympic tkd in the first place



I have friends who teach boxing. None of them think very highly of Olympic boxing. 

Ive also never had anyone maintain the position that I couldn't fight after sparring with me, so take that for what it's worth. 



Twin Fist said:


> it isnt anything people can look at and recognize as a legitimate martial art.
> 
> Not trying to be rude, but you DID ask....



You are trying to be rude, actually, or at least trying to be condescending. It's ok, I don't hold a grudge.


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## Twin Fist

i am actually trying to be polite, but i am not very good at it.

look, i LOVE to spar, i think it is prob the single most important part of training for self defense. But it has to be smart sparring, and simply put, WTF sparring doesnt impress me. At All. I do not find it helpfull in regards to training you for self defense. And that is what sparring is for to me. Self defense, not sport. For the sport you are training for, i am sure it is the perfect tool

Now that is just my opinion, take it for what it is worth, which isnt much.

 But the simple fact is you made a pretty outlandish statement, and it amused me. Now, you are doing a little bit of bragging, but thats ok, i did when i was 20 too

you will learn, just like we all did.


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## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> i am actually trying to be polite, but i am not very good at it.
> 
> look, i LOVE to spar, i think it is prob the single most important part of training for self defense. But it has to be smart sparring, and simply put, WTF sparring doesnt impress me. At All. I do not find it helpfull in regards to training you for self defense. And that is what sparring is for to me. Self defense, not sport. For the sport you are training for, i am sure it is the perfect tool



WTF sparring at a dojang is not like WTF sparring at the Olympics. The difference is like you or I playing football for fun and the Super Bowl. At the highest level, the style that works the best is the one you're thinking of, which looks goofy and impractical to non sport guys. It kind of reminds me of ippon-style karate sparring. For the guys who are training for fun and for local tournaments or whatever (me included, outside of my interest in coaching), it looks a lot like it would have 20 years ago when we were still a GM Park school, maybe a little more counter based. That's probably part of our divide here and something that just occurred to me. 



Twin Fist said:


> Now that is just my opinion, take it for what it is worth, which isnt much.
> 
> But the simple fact is you made a pretty outlandish statement, and it amused me. Now, you are doing a little bit of bragging, but thats ok, i did when i was 20 too
> 
> you will learn, just like we all did.



I wasn't trying to play myself up, or attack you personally. Being talked down to is a pet peeve of mine so yeah, you bruised my ego a little bit. I still don't think not punching the face discredits the ruleset as a training tool for self defense.


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## Kframe

edit double post.


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## Kframe

ETinCYQX said:


> Ok, since you've apparently read less than nothing on these boards so far, you're more than welcome to try and take me down or punch me in the face.
> 
> People who get stuck on "they don't punch the face" have no real understanding of combat, at all.



No need for the attitude, or the childish challenge. You are stating opinions as facts. I have apparently read a lot on these forums, and I do know how real combat works. That does not change the things I have observed. Im sorry that the only Tkd I have observed, out side of one apparently rare case of good instruction, have all been abysmall failure.  I have never, ever seen any tkd out side of my father, use there hands in any meaningfull way. Sorry, but if you have proof, put it up.  Secondly, That video is one of many I have found showing tkd lacking in any form of takedown defense. Unless im not using proper  search peramiters in youtube.   I have yet to see anything online that would change my mind. if you know of any post them. I want to see examples of tkd actually using there hands in a meaningfull way, actually holding there hands in a way that can effect some kind of defense of there upper body and head, and above all not getting taken down.


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## Kframe

Thought It add this in. Since im doing mma, we do a lot of sparring of various flavors. I can tell you, the practicing your defenses against the air, and on the focus mits, are one thing, doing them against someone trying to hit you is way different. It took me, many sparring sessions before I could even beginner to effect my punch and striking defense in any meaningfull way. That for me proves that you  need to actually be punched, in a serious way that involves some kind of pressure.  That for me is a inescapable fact, you  need to do your defense work not only in air drills, but with pressure, and with someone actually trying to hit you.   I have seen it a bunch of times, like when a wtf Tkd bb competitor joined our gym. For me, ETinCTQX  that is where your argument falls apart. This guy, was a good wtf black belt. Problem is, in sparriing, I was able to get inside, and it was over for him. He had no idea how to defend punches up close. IT would only take a few, before he turtled up and coach called the session.  Sure if he can keep me at range he wins, but after a short while I learned how to deal with his long range tactics.  So ya, my personal experience with it, is what is forming my opinions, as they are based in personal experience.  I have said it before, but I find it odd my father is the only tkd I have met that can fight at range(his preference) and up close(were most of his SD fights took place)  and can use his hands in meaningfull ways. Even his combat stance is different then most tkd stances I have seen.


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## chrispillertkd

msmitht said:


> I find this totally hilarious. If you go to Korea, like I said before, you will not find any other style of tkd except kkw tkd! The Olympic movement took over any other form of tkd was absorbed or dissolved.



This isn't exactly accurate. There are now some ITF schools in South Korea and have been for about 10 years or so. The ITF in SK is growing but it is and will always be smaller than the KKW/WTF there for a variety of reasons. The fact is, however, there are at least some people in Korea who aren't sold on the KKW and the Olympic movement. 

Pax,

Chris


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## ETinCYQX

Kframe said:


> No need for the attitude, or the childish challenge. You are stating opinions as facts. I have apparently read a lot on these forums, and I do know how real combat works. That does not change the things I have observed. Im sorry that the only Tkd I have observed, out side of one apparently rare case of good instruction, have all been abysmall failure.  I have never, ever seen any tkd out side of my father, use there hands in any meaningfull way. Sorry, but if you have proof, put it up.  Secondly, That video is one of many I have found showing tkd lacking in any form of takedown defense. Unless im not using proper  search peramiters in youtube.   I have yet to see anything online that would change my mind. if you know of any post them. I want to see examples of tkd actually using there hands in a meaningfull way, actually holding there hands in a way that can effect some kind of defense of there upper body and head, and above all not getting taken down.



No attitude. I don't feel any need to prove my point with YouTube videos because everything I've said is backed up by my own experience in taekwondo, judo and bjj.

Where your hands are is largely irrelevant. Not getting hit is what is relevant. 

This is the same issue I've been over before. You don't need to know how to do everything. A standup fighter should be able to use his striking to keep a grappler from taking him down by controlling distance and positioning. Same way a grappler should be able to win his fight by closing distance and taking down the striker. You need an understanding of distance, positioning, and timing, and skill in the range you choose to have skill in. That's all.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Kframe said:


> Thought It add this in. Since im doing mma, we do a lot of sparring of various flavors. I can tell you, the practicing your defenses against the air, and on the focus mits, are one thing, doing them against someone trying to hit you is way different. It took me, many sparring sessions before I could even beginner to effect my punch and striking defense in any meaningfull way.



I've been sparring full contact more or less since I started training, so have most of the kkw people here. Full contact sparring is a big part of the style. Can't remember the last time I did anything in the air. Most KKW guys don't kick the air or practice blocks in the air because its counter productive. Hitting focus mitts is worthwhile, but for different reasons than sparring is. 



Kframe said:


> That for me proves that you  need to actually be punched, in a serious way that involves some kind of pressure.  That for me is a inescapable fact, you  need to do your defense work not only in air drills, but with pressure, and with someone actually trying to hit you.   I have seen it a bunch of times, like when a wtf Tkd bb competitor joined our gym.



Like I said, I've been sparring for my entire MA life and I'm not unique there. All KKW practitioners spar. I'm one of the biggest advocates of alive training on this board. In fact the cornerstone of my training philosophy is dealing with pressure, not punches and kicks. I'm glad you see the value in pressure, it's important. 



Kframe said:


> For me, ETinCTQX  that is where your argument falls apart. This guy, was a good wtf black belt. Problem is, in sparriing, I was able to get inside, and it was over for him. He had no idea how to defend punches up close. IT would only take a few, before he turtled up and coach called the session.  Sure if he can keep me at range he wins, but after a short while I learned how to deal with his long range tactics.  So ya, my personal experience with it, is what is forming my opinions, as they are based in personal experience.  I have said it before, but I find it odd my father is the only tkd I have met that can fight at range(his preference) and up close(were most of his SD fights took place)  and can use his hands in meaningfull ways. Even his combat stance is different then most tkd stances I have seen.



A lot of KKW people, especially those attracted to full contact fighting, try and fight the way they see in the Olympics. That's a particular style that's dominant at that high level, which is all long range and counter based. 

KKW sparring for your average Taekwondo practitioner doesn't and shouldn't look like that. There is no clinching to wait for the ref to break it up, no 2 minute standoffs where nothing happens. I can remember doing clinch work as a kid while sparring, I don't think that's unique either. 

The other side of your anecdote there is that MMA is a sport with a different ruleset than wtf sparring tournaments. He was lost when tossed into a new sport with new rules, just like you would be in a TKD match.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kframe said:


> Thought It add this in. Since im doing mma, we do a lot of sparring of various flavors. I can tell you, the practicing your defenses against the air, and on the focus mits, are one thing, doing them against someone trying to hit you is way different. It took me, many sparring sessions before I could even beginner to effect my punch and striking defense in any meaningfull way. That for me proves that you  need to actually be punched, in a serious way that involves some kind of pressure.  That for me is a inescapable fact, you  need to do your defense work not only in air drills, but with pressure, and with someone actually trying to hit you.   I have seen it a bunch of times, like when a wtf Tkd bb competitor joined our gym. For me, ETinCTQX  that is where your argument falls apart. This guy, was a good wtf black belt. Problem is, in sparriing, I was able to get inside, and it was over for him. He had no idea how to defend punches up close. IT would only take a few, before he turtled up and coach called the session.  Sure if he can keep me at range he wins, but after a short while I learned how to deal with his long range tactics.  So ya, my personal experience with it, is what is forming my opinions, as they are based in personal experience.  I have said it before, but I find it odd my father is the only tkd I have met that can fight at range(his preference) and up close(were most of his SD fights took place)  and can use his hands in meaningfull ways. Even his combat stance is different then most tkd stances I have seen.


I find that if you go on anecdotes, such as your experience with the black belt, everyone in every art has several that demonstrate their art's superiority or another art's inferiority.  It just serves to reinforce my opinion that no art is better or worse, but that they all have their strong points and they all have practitioners of varying levels.

Incidentally, one of our black belts at the school where I trained had a friend who did MMA.  I don't know what his level was, but he came to visit and train with us occasionally.  He had a hard time fighting in the WTF rule set.  After class we did some pick up matches and some of us sparred with him under a more open rule set.  I enjoyed it.  He was darned good, but I was able to adapt to him.  But I've been practicing since the late seventies.  On the other hand, one of our top guys in competition (he was a second dan with a total of three years in) had a lot of trouble with him.  After a while, he adapted, but it was very challenging for him.  It was a fun experience for all involved, but it definitely illustrated what a difference the environment makes.  

A comment on the "WTF black belt:" You don't mention his actual grade (ildan, yidan, samdan, sadan, ohdan, etc.), so I am assuming that he is an ildan (first dan).  A first dan in KKW/WTF taekwondo is essentially a novice.  They've learned the beginning material.  From first to second, they're honing their practice and instead of learning eight forms in twelve to twenty four months, they learn one and practice those that they've learned.  They practice more than one type of sparring, the most recognizable being what is seen in the Olympics.  Contrast that to a BJJ blackbelt, which takes many years to attain.  Same color piece of cloth, but they represent very different amounts of time in their respective arts.  

It takes a long time to develop a good taekwondoin.  Other posters here, such as Twin Fist, who train in schools where a black belt is not awarded until two to three times longer (four to six years) essentially say the same thing; a year to two years is not enough to develop a strong fighter in taekwondo.  It is enough to develop proficiency in the basics, which is what a KKW black belt represents, but not a strong fighter.  

Training in an MMA, wrestling, or boxing gym will develop a strong fighter in far less time because that is essentially all that they're doing, while taekwondo encompasses a lot of elements in addition to fighting (forms, breaking, and sometimes there is a level of Korean culture, which varries from school to school).  That isn't a value judgement; having more or less is not inherently better.  It really depends on what you're tring to get out of the class.  

If I was looking to be a strong competitive fighter quickly, particularly if I wanted a more handsy set of tournament rules, I would not enrole in a taekwondo school, at least not KKW.  If I want to be a strong fighter and go to the Olympics, and specifically want to do taekwondo, I would be very choosy in where I train, finding the schools that do the best in tournaments, evaluating the level that the instructors may have reached in tournaments.  Did they go to the Olympics?  Are they local, regional, state, or national champions?  Out of probably over two hundred schools in the DC metropolitan area, Maryland and Northern Virginia, there would only be a handful of schools that would meet that need.  The rest are commercial schools that cater to kids and families.

On the other hand, if all I want is a class where I go in, get a good work out, mingle with people in a friendly environment, and maybe enjoy the activity with my kids, and have little to no interest in competitive fighting, a lot of taekwondo schools are available to meet that need.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> i am actually trying to be polite, but i am not very good at it.


While we may all have our moments of falling short (myself included), being polite, particularly on the internet, isn't hard.  It is something that you either do or do not do.  Unlike face to face communication, where it isn't what you say but how you say it, in a typed medium, it really is what you say.  This post evinces that you can be polite, or at least reasonably civil.  

As this isn't IM, you can edit and adjust and rewrite your post many ways and many times prior to posting it.

*Edit: *and you can also go back a few minutes afterward if you see something you missed*.
*
If you're unsure, read it back as being directed at you.  If you would find it rude or impolite coming from someone else, then chances are you need to do some tuning. 



Twin Fist said:


> look, i LOVE to spar, i think it is prob the single most important part of training for self defense.


With regard to physical defense, I am inclined to agree with you.



Twin Fist said:


> But it has to be smart sparring, and simply put, WTF sparring doesnt impress me. At All. I do not find it helpfull in regards to training you for self defense.


In terms of it being representative of a self defense scenario, I agree; it isn't helpful. 

 There are elements however that are helpful; conditioning, flexibility, timing, movement, distance management, and kicking ability, as well as some degree of punching ability depending on the fighter.  

 A skilled practitioner can see past the specific techniques and use their skills to apply the principles successfully against fighters with different backgrounds.  The same goes for boxing which has no kicks and grappling arts which have no strikes.  I've had kendo students who have zero hand to hand experience defend themselves successfully by applying the principles that they learned in kendo, though I am not at all inclined to call kendo a self defense art.

Getting to that point takes time, an amount that differs from person to person, and a lot of training both inside and outside of the studio.  But it is that point that, in my opinion, every instructor should strive to bring their students to.



Twin Fist said:


> And that is what sparring is for to me. Self defense, not sport. For the sport you are training for, i am sure it is the perfect tool


I think that it goes without saying that athletes gear their training to the type of environment in which they compete.  It does not necesarilly follow that that competition training is the only training that a person engages in.  Most of us who practice the martial arts for any length of time tend to get outside of our own circles from time to time.



Twin Fist said:


> Now that is just my opinion, take it for what it is worth, which isnt much.
> 
> But the simple fact is *you made a pretty outlandish statement*, and it amused me. Now, you are doing a little bit of bragging, but thats ok, i did when i was 20 too
> 
> you will learn, just like we all did.


We all make outlandish statements from time to time.  You and I included.


----------



## Kframe

ETinCyqx I understand about sparring in a new rule set environment. I understand that, but It was a more open ruleset we were sparring under. Only a few rules. I felt at the time, and now, that he should have been able to apply the other parts of the art that he had learned. If tkd does truly teach hand techs and defenses for hand techs and throws and takedowns, then I wonder about the quality of his instruction.  Im just saying that, ya he could deal with pressure to a point but, the moment it got close, he turtled. I was shocked by it. I then changed how me and him sparred. We would work on specific things. Like I would start up close and he would work only his defense with me punching from mid to close range. Then next round he would work long range kicks so I could practice getting close.   He was the best sparring partner I have had. I was sad to see him move out of state.   So my question is, why was he nearly unable to deal with sparring in a more open rule set if such rules only serve to allow him to use the rest of his skills?


----------



## Kframe

Daniel, my new gym is focused on Self  defense, so we don't train for rulsets. I personally feel that boxing+grapling with a lil kicking(I only know a few)  makes for a GREAT unarmed selfdefense skillset. My coach also is trained in knife and counter knife(both armed and unarmed thanks to the military) on top of our striking and grappling(both standing and ground).  He is even making arrangements for a local Judo club to come and train with us. Which imho Is fracking awesome, because I would love to learn some new throws and polish the ones I know now.   I don't expect a tkd or anyone else, to learn the entire art of jjj or judo, inorder to not get taken down, or how to survive there and get to there feet. I just feel that, you need to actually train there so you don't get lost, and atleast know how to escape from the ground so you can get back to you feet. Having said that, I watched that video again, and all he had to do to avoid being shot down, was move either rearward(not optimal) or to the side.(optimal) He just stood there and didn't move, that was his mistake, his over confidence  in him self.


----------



## ATC

Kframe said:


> That's when I first encountered this video.



Ha ha ha...That guy sucked. Simple as that. Again even at my advanced age I would welcome someone to attempt to misjudge me based on me practicing TKD. There are so many people doing TKD that are not good that think they are good that they go out and make fools of themselves. Go into any TKD school and you will only find 1 maybe 2, and if your lucky 3 people that are any good. What I mean by any good is that they are fighters, regardless of TKD. TKD is an art for everyone. And when you get as many people doing it as many schools have, most of them are simply there for exercise or an activity. They would not or could not fight no matter what art they do. Simple as this, fighters fight and will be good at fighting no matter what style of art they do. Fighters are tough, can take as much as they give and will adapt to the situation. Sadly many people that do TKD that are not fighters, think they are but find out the hard way that they are not fighters. Same can be said for many in all the other arts too. Not every person doing MMA is good or even OK for that matter. I have seen many MMA, BJJ, Boxing and so on fights that are just as lopsided, but no one ever says man that MMA style sucks when they lose also against a better fighter. Just that most people see things a little myopic is all. Open your eyes people, there are a ton of sucky people doing every art.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

ATC said:


> Ha ha ha...That guy sucked. Simple as that. Again even at my advanced age I would welcome someone to attempt to misjudge me based on me practicing TKD. There are so many people doing TKD that are not good that think they are good that they go out and make fools of themselves. Go into any TKD school and you will only find 1 maybe 2, and if your lucky 3 people that are any good. What I mean by any good is that they are fighters, regardless of TKD. TKD is an art for everyone. And when you get as many people doing it as many schools have, most of them are simply there for exercise or an activity. They would not or could not fight no matter what art they do. Simple as this, fighters fight and will be good at fighting no matter what style of art they do. Fighters are tough, can take as much as they give and will adapt to the situation. Sadly many people that do TKD that are not fighters, think they are but find out the hard way that they are not fighters. Same can be said for many in all the other arts too. Not every person doing MMA is good or even OK for that matter. I have seen many MMA, BJJ, Boxing and so on fights that are just as lopsided, but no one ever says man that MMA style sucks when they lose also against a better fighter. Just that most people see things a little myopic is all. Open your eyes people, there are a ton of sucky people doing every art.



I have to agree with you regarding "fighters", but I cant help but think if you got 100 "random" wtf tkd guys and put them up against 100 "random" boxing/muay thai/mma guys that the tkd guys would come off second best on most occasions.  I  could well be wrong,  but its just a gut feeling.


----------



## Cyriacus

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have to agree with you regarding "fighters", but I cant help but think if you got 100 "random" wtf tkd guys and put them up against 100 "random" boxing/muay thai/mma guys that the tkd guys would come off second best on most occasions.  I  could well be wrong,  but its just a gut feeling.



In what format of competition?

Before anyone thinks i am, im not pulling the 'systems-excell-in-their-competitions' angle. I just wanna know what sort of environment theyd be put together in. Just freefighting in an arena? MMA rules? What?


----------



## Jaeimseu

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have to agree with you regarding "fighters", but I cant help but think if you got 100 "random" wtf tkd guys and put them up against 100 "random" boxing/muay thai/mma guys that the tkd guys would come off second best on most occasions.  I  could well be wrong,  but its just a gut feeling.



Are you talking about 100 random "fighters" or just 100 random students. If it's students, then you're almost certainly correct. There are so many TKD people that if you took a random sampling most of them would be very poor fighters. If you're talking about fighters to begin with, then I think it would depend on the ruleset and how much time they had to prepare for the given ruleset.


----------



## Mauthos

I have followed this thread with interest and the one question I have, as I no longer compete, is why do people struggle to fight when they change styles, clubs, organizations?  I know that is a relatively open ended question and a lot of people will answer that it will be the ruleset, but if you train hard and spar hard and practice as much as you can in any art, surely your key skills, as it were, should be transferable.

I have fought semi-contact, full contact and point stop style of fighting and apart from having to check on the rules I have found that I have had no real difficulty swapping from one to the other.  Sure, I mainly excelled at full contact and mma style fighting as it enabled me to use all my skills, semi-contact meant that I possibly couldn't punch to the head or kick below the waist, but that was an easy adjustment to make and point stop just meant I had to dial back my power and stop fighting whenever the ref called it.

I personally teach my students to fight hard, we spar as if we are full contact fighters, and hit between 60 - 80% of our full power, as I believe this is more practical for the street, but the competitions we can participate in are the point stop style and I believe my students would no struggle to make the distinction between the 2.

Forgive me as I don't mean to sound insulting, but surely a TKD practitioner should be able to move from his WTF ruleset, for example, to a full contact environment and transfer his skills across. Therefore, if he excelled at TKD sparring I would expect him to stand up against a full contact fighter fairly well, probably on an equal footing (obviously if going into mma with only TKD, he will struggle with the grappling and ground work as they would have little to no experience in those areas).  Baring in mind, this scenario should also work vice versa, i.e. a full contact fighter moving into a WTF style competition sparring environment.

Just my 2 pence


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Cyriacus said:


> In what format of competition?
> 
> Before anyone thinks i am, im not pulling the 'systems-excell-in-their-competitions' angle. I just wanna know what sort of environment theyd be put together in. Just freefighting in an arena? MMA rules? What?


for aguments sake, say a streetfight, bar room fight sort of thing. With a ruleset I would imagine who ever trains for that ruleset would win.


----------



## Twin Fist

the question is "what do you want to be?"

if it is an olympic champion? then WTF training is the thing to do

BUT

if it is to be a well rounded martial artist with good self defense skills, maybe it isnt

i dont think wtf training is the best tool for well rounded self defense training.

the problem is that WTF fighters use the TKD name, so in a very real way, yes, the olympics have ruined TKD's image


----------



## Cyriacus

ralphmcpherson said:


> for aguments sake, say a streetfight, bar room fight sort of thing. With a ruleset I would imagine who ever trains for that ruleset would win.



In that case, whoever gets off first will probably win, regardless of system.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Mauthos said:


> I have followed this thread with interest and the one question I have, as I no longer compete, is why do people struggle to fight when they change styles, clubs, organizations?  I know that is a relatively open ended question and a lot of people will answer that it will be the ruleset, but if you train hard and spar hard and practice as much as you can in any art, surely your key skills, as it were, should be transferable.
> 
> I have fought semi-contact, full contact and point stop style of fighting and apart from having to check on the rules I have found that I have had no real difficulty swapping from one to the other.  Sure, I mainly excelled at full contact and mma style fighting as it enabled me to use all my skills, semi-contact meant that I possibly couldn't punch to the head or kick below the waist, but that was an easy adjustment to make and point stop just meant I had to dial back my power and stop fighting whenever the ref called it.
> 
> I personally teach my students to fight hard, we spar as if we are full contact fighters, and hit between 60 - 80% of our full power, as I believe this is more practical for the street, but the competitions we can participate in are the point stop style and I believe my students would no struggle to make the distinction between the 2.
> 
> Forgive me as I don't mean to sound insulting, but surely a TKD practitioner should be able to move from his WTF ruleset, for example, to a full contact environment and transfer his skills across. Therefore, if he excelled at TKD sparring I would expect him to stand up against a full contact fighter fairly well, probably on an equal footing (obviously if going into mma with only TKD, he will struggle with the grappling and ground work as they would have little to no experience in those areas).  Baring in mind, this scenario should also work vice versa, i.e. a full contact fighter moving into a WTF style competition sparring environment.
> 
> Just my 2 pence



It may be possible to do this at the local level, but I highly doubt if would work out beyond that. Different rules make a different game. Look at how few athletes can play more than one sport at the highest level.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kframe said:


> Daniel, my new gym is focused on Self  defense, so we don't train for rulsets. I personally feel that boxing+grapling with a lil kicking(I only know a few)  makes for a GREAT unarmed selfdefense skillset. My coach also is trained in knife and counter knife(both armed and unarmed thanks to the military) on top of our striking and grappling(both standing and ground).  He is even making arrangements for a local Judo club to come and train with us. Which imho Is fracking awesome, because I would love to learn some new throws and polish the ones I know now.   I don't expect a tkd or anyone else, to learn the entire art of jjj or judo, inorder to not get taken down, or how to survive there and get to there feet. I just feel that, you need to actually train there so you don't get lost, and atleast know how to escape from the ground so you can get back to you feet.


Sounds like a fun place.  Different environment than your average TKD school.  I will be the first to agree that the more styles one trains with, whether learning the style or simply gaining familiarity with it, the better prepared one will be.  It also gives one an appreciation of what is going on outside of their own sphere.  It is very easy to view one's own world of taekwondo, or any other art, as being the big picture when in reality, even with an art as widespread as taekwondo, it is simply a part of the greater whole.



Kframe said:


> Having said that, I watched that video again, and all he had to do to avoid being shot down, was move either rearward(not optimal) or to the side.(optimal) He just stood there and didn't move, that was his mistake, his over confidence  in him self.


There are a lot of recordings of subpar performance on youtube.  As I said earlier, I do not use it as a barometer of the state of an art, regardless of what it is.  I've seen a* lot *of bad sword vids.  And even more mediocre sword vids.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Just tossing this out for the sake of discussion...

Would it be fair to say that Olympic TKD has been beneficial (for the most part) for TKD schools that center on sport, but probably hasn't done much (positive or negative) for TKD schools that center on self-defense?  This isn't meant to be a sport vs. SD question, rather it is looking at a particular public venue that exposes the masses to one segment of TKD but not really the other.

Thoughts...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> the question is "what do you want to be?"


A good father, an honest person, and a person who can enjoy life and have good quality of life.  



Twin Fist said:


> if it is an olympic champion? then WTF training is the thing to do


Or boxing, judo, gymnastics, archery, track and fields, swimming, skating, or fencing.



Twin Fist said:


> BUT
> 
> if it is to be a well rounded martial artist with good self defense skills, maybe it isnt


Depends on how you define a well rounded martial artist.  Again, the sense that I get is that KKW/WTF schools do not train "WTF" exclusively, but train in a more well rounded curriculum.  You may choose to ignore that or dismiss it, but that doesn't negate the fact that your characterization of WTF sparring as being passed off as comprehensive self defense is incorrect.

As has been said previously, the issue isn't the rule set but highly commercialized schools which succeed (financially) by providing a family friendly martial arts themed activity.  



Twin Fist said:


> i dont think wtf training is the best tool for well rounded self defense training.


Of course it isn't.  It's a competition rule set for what amounts to Korean sport karate.  The last two TKD schools where I trained separated self defense from competition.  I see enough posts from other taekwondoin and have spoken to enough from other schools to know that those two schools were not unique.



Twin Fist said:


> the problem is that WTF fighters use the TKD name, so in a very real way, yes, the olympics have ruined TKD's image


Obviously not.  

KKW/WTF schools, at least in this area, have, with few exceptions, weathered the recession, and seem to be attracting new students.  I don't even teach or train TKD at a dojang right now and I still have people ask me about taekwondo, if it would be a good fit for them or their kids, and then about various schools in the area, most of which are KKW/WTF.  

More accurately, the Olympics do not present the image of taekwondo that *you *want to see presented.  In fact, it doesn't present taekwondo that way that I would prefer either, but that doesn't ruin its reputation in any way.    

I said this in a previous thread: Mel Gibson's reputation is ruined.  Hardly anybody wants to work with him or be associated with him.  He is spoken of entirely or almost entirely in a negative light.  People are not interested in consuming his material, regardless of how good an actor or director he may be or how good his film may be.  I don't remember the name of his last action movie, but a critic said that he actually enjoyed it, but that nobody would likely pay to see it because it was Mel Gibson.  *That* is a ruined reputation.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Kong Soo Do said:


> Just tossing this out for the sake of discussion...
> 
> Would it be fair to say that Olympic TKD has been beneficial (for the most part) for TKD schools that center on sport, but probably hasn't done much (positive or negative) for TKD schools that center on self-defense?  This isn't meant to be a sport vs. SD question, rather it is looking at a particular public venue that exposes the masses to one segment of TKD but not really the other.
> 
> Thoughts...



Indirectly, I think so. 

There were two dojangs here, my KKW affiliated one and a non-affiliated ITF-ish one. I have a bit of a soft spot for competition as a lot of you know. 

After the Olympics, I picked up three students because they wanted to learn to compete and the other dojang picked up three parents of those students who decided to try Taekwondo while their kids did but for whatever reason, I wasn't the right fit for. The other teacher told me it was pretty common and in his old school, he had a good number of people who had family members in "sporty-er" KKW schools.


----------



## Steve

ATC said:


> Ha ha ha...That guy sucked. Simple as that.


How can you tell whether that guy sucked at TKD or not from that clip?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Just tossing this out for the sake of discussion...
> 
> Would it be fair to say that Olympic TKD has been beneficial (for the most part) for TKD schools that center on sport, but probably hasn't done much (positive or negative) for TKD schools that center on self-defense?  This isn't meant to be a sport vs. SD question, rather it is looking at a particular public venue that exposes the masses to one segment of TKD but not really the other.
> 
> Thoughts...


Without any kind of stats on how Olympic inclusion has impacted enrollment, it would be hard to say.  I suspect that it has probably had a minor halo effect on taekwondo schools in general.  Being in the Olympics is 'nice.'  It generates warm fuzzy feelings in people who care about such things and lends a measure of prestige in the minds of some. 

From what I have seen though, unless someone already has an interest it is unlikely that Olympic inclusion of those sports is really driving people in.  There are probably a few people who see it and say, "Hey, there's school for that here.  Maybe I'll try it," but I suspect that most viewers are rooting for their nation and are probably only watching it because they already are involved, either directly or indirectly (kids).  Also, unless you're already a participant, people have a hard time really understanding what they're watching.  Aside from 'body kick good, head kick better,' other elements of the sport are more difficult to pick up on.

Schools that have programs focused on high level competition are attracting people because they're competitive schools, not because of Olympic exposure.

Now, I could be very mistaken on that, and perhaps worldwide, Olympic inclusion has had a much greater impact on enrollment than it has in the US.  But in all the time I have been in TKD dojangs, not once have I ever seen anyone say that the Olympics factored into their reasons for joining.  They were almost all related to kids, fitness, and self defense, and in that order. 

I would be interested to know if others' experiences have been different.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have to agree with you regarding "fighters", but I cant help but think if you got 100 "random" wtf tkd guys and put them up against 100 "random" boxing/muay thai/mma guys that the tkd guys would come off second best on most occasions.  I  could well be wrong,  but its just a gut feeling.


I would love to see ten of the top ranked fighers in each style; ten MT and ten TKD.  I really don't care who would win, but it would very interesting to watch.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Steve said:


> How can you tell whether that guy sucked at TKD or not from that clip?


I have to ask the same question.  Aside from making a tactical error (staying one place for too long while his opponent developed his attack), I really couldn't get any sense of his ability one way or the other.  He was obviously outmatched once they went to the ground, but aside from that, there wasn't enough there to make an assessment.


----------



## ATC

Steve said:


> How can you tell whether that guy sucked at TKD or not from that clip?


There was a lot in a very short amount of time that tipped that this guy was not that good by standards that I am use to seeing even by TKD guys from around this way that do MMA as well as TKD. His kicking skills were not that great as his pre fight ax kicked showed. Now he may have been stretching out his legs but even so they looked more like a can can dance style more than even stretching out. You don't bounce on the kick motion but this guy did. That is something beginners do. Also the one attempt at a kick he did do (I am guessing that he tried a jump or flying side kick was poorly executed and no one would use that kick to attack with, let alone right out the gate, just a bad or stupid choice of kick. But the worst thing is the fact that he did not see the slowest biggest motion for a take down. That should have been an easy slip but this guy had no reading or reaction to it whatsoever. He looked flexible but he did not look like a fighter at all. His ground game was a simple school yard head lock that a beginner in wrestling would have reversed or escaped easily. Again the guy was not a fighter at all and it showed. This guy could have been a boxer or anything and would have gotten beat just as easily. This again goes back to my statement that just as many MMA, BJJ, Karate, Boxing and on and on guys get beat everyday just as badly and as quick as any TKD guy. But when you see a bad MMA guy get beat quickly and badly by another MMA guy no one says anything. Then there are the TKD guys that excel at MMA with a little ground game and everyone dismisses their TKD even when they use one of those so called fancy high kicks to KO a pretty good MMA or other style opponent. It is what it is, fighters are fighters regardless of style of art used.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> There was a lot in a very short amount of time that tipped that this guy was not that good by standards that I am use to seeing even by TKD guys from around this way that do MMA as well as TKD. His kicking skills were not that great as his pre fight ax kicked showed. Now he may have been stretching out his legs but even so they looked more like a can can dance style more than even stretching out. You don't bounce on the kick motion but this guy did. That is something beginners do. Also the one attempt at a kick he did do (I am guessing that he tried a jump or flying side kick was poorly executed and no one would use that kick to attack with, let alone right out the gate, just a bad or stupid choice of kick.


This goes to show that unless you are competing at that level, there are a lot of subtleties that you will miss.  I practice taekwondo and didn't pick any of that out.  I haven't competed in years, and even then, never at a very high level.



ATC said:


> *But the worst thing is the fact that he did not see the slowest biggest motion for a take down. That should have been an easy slip but this guy had no reading or reaction to it whatsoever.* He looked flexible but he did not look like a fighter at all. His ground game was a simple school yard head lock that a beginner in wrestling would have reversed or escaped easily. Again the guy was not a fighter at all and it showed. This guy could have been a boxer or anything and would have gotten beat just as easily.


The bolded part was my assessment as well.  I will let those who wrestle or ground fight comment on the rest.



ATC said:


> This again goes back to my statement that just as many MMA, BJJ, Karate, Boxing and on and on guys get beat everyday just as badly and as quick as any TKD guy. But when you see a bad MMA guy get beat quickly and badly by another MMA guy no one says anything. Then there are the TKD guys that excel at MMA with a little ground game and everyone dismisses their TKD even when they use one of those so called fancy high kicks to KO a pretty good MMA or other style opponent. It is what it is, fighters are fighters regardless of style of art used.


This has been said many times by many people in the course of these discussions over the years.


----------



## Kframe

Well that head lock, im my JJJ class could have more then likely been used to try and control his opponents head. He had several openings to put him into full guard. From there, I am taught several escapes, the simplest of which was available to him for a decent period of time.  Honestly he should have moved,  IDK wtf was wrong with him.


----------



## Gorilla

I am currently in hotel in Germany.....spent 6 Hours @ a airport in London...I spoke with several people from  England...they talked about Jade Jones and Aaron CookThe bartender in the pub (Hamburg) last night was Turkish....we had an extensive conversation about Servet Tazegal and Levent Tuncat...he talked about how Olympic style Tkd is very popular in Turkey.Sport TKD Seems to be more known in Europe than in the states we are certainly being approached more!!!!


----------



## ATC

Gorilla said:


> I am currently in hotel in Germany.....spent 6 Hours @ a airport in London...I spoke with several people from  England...they talked about Jade Jones and Aaron CookThe bartender in the pub (Hamburg) last night was Turkish....we had an extensive conversation about Servet Tazegal and Levent Tuncat...he talked about how Olympic style Tkd is very popular in Turkey.Sport TKD Seems to be more known in Europe than in the states we are certainly being approached more!!!!


Good luck to you guys. Who is competing, Kym or Charlie? Keep us posted of their results. Wish I was there. I have to get my kids over into AAU for more international competitions. Lucky you guys.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Why must you guys travel the world ruining taekwondo's reputation?


----------



## Markku P

Gorilla said:


> I am currently in hotel in Germany.....spent 6 Hours @ a airport in London...I spoke with several people from  England...they talked about Jade Jones and Aaron CookThe bartender in the pub (Hamburg) last night was Turkish....we had an extensive conversation about Servet Tazegal and Levent Tuncat...he talked about how Olympic style Tkd is very popular in Turkey.Sport TKD Seems to be more known in Europe than in the states we are certainly being approached more!!!!



Is it true that Aaron Cook won't be allowed compete in Germany?


----------



## andyjeffries

Jaeimseu said:


> Why must you guys travel the world ruining taekwondo's reputation?



Mate, that cracked me up!


----------



## andyjeffries

Markku P said:


> Is it true that Aaron Cook won't be allowed compete in Germany?



No, he's not competing at the German Open, but will be back in action at the Dutch Open.  The organisers said No to him, but the ETU Secretary General said he should be allowed - but I guess it was too late.

There's been some political manouvering about trying to block him from fighting under the IoM banner.  From The Times (UK newspaper):

Gerrit Eissink, the secretary general of the European Taekwondo Union, said: &#8220;The British federation made more than one protest about Aaron Cook competing for Isle of Man. I informed the organisers in Hamburg that he can compete. I think it is a point of freedom.&#8221; For a final binding resolution, the WTF requested input from all sides. The response from British Taekwondo included two suggestions: that the IOMTA becomes a member of British Taekwondo, or that the WTF simply derecognises the IOMTA. The WTF rejected both of them and declared that Cook will be eligible for the Isle of Man.


----------



## andyjeffries

Gorilla said:


> I am currently in hotel in Germany.....spent 6 Hours @ a airport in London...I spoke with several people from  England...they talked about Jade Jones and Aaron Cook



I live in the UK (and work in London) and have had many conversations with random people about Aaron Cook if they ever notice me wearing something with Taekwondo or if the topic of hobbies/sports comes up.

I would say Taekwondo has a bad reputation amongst grapplers over here, but aside from that it generally enjoys a pretty good reputation amongst the public.


----------



## Gorilla

jaeimseu said:


> why must you guys travel the world ruining taekwondo's reputation?



lol!!!!


----------



## Gorilla

andyjeffries said:


> I live in the UK (and work in London) and have had many conversations with random people about Aaron Cook if they ever notice me wearing something with Taekwondo or if the topic of hobbies/sports comes up.
> 
> I would say Taekwondo has a bad reputation amongst grapplers over here, but aside from that it generally enjoys a pretty good reputation amongst the public.



Yeah it seems to me that people enjoy sport Tkd in Europe...

The general Public seems to know allot more about it!!!!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

andyjeffries said:


> I would say Taekwondo has a bad reputation amongst grapplers over here, but aside from that it generally enjoys a pretty good reputation amongst the public.


Bad in what way?


----------



## Gorilla

They have advertisements on the train for the German Open.  People have asked to take pictures with team members @ the restaurant.  They seemed to be intrigued by the Team Jackets... Hamburg seems to be a very USA Freindly town...
More people in the general public seem to know about TKD.....Than the USA..


----------



## chrispillertkd

Does USAT do any sort of promotional work for the U.S. team or Taekwondo in general? In all honesty, the last time I saw Taekwondo portrayed in the media in the U.S. in _any_ way was in 1988 as part of a Visa commercial in the run up to the Seoul Olympics and that was literally only a shot that lasted half a second. If people want Olympic Taekwondo to be better known I'd think making it a matter of public knowledge would be a first step. 

Having rules that promoted exciting matches where people didn't fall down every time they kicked would be a good thing, too, but I don't see that happening.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Metal

Gorilla said:


> They have advertisements on the train for the German Open.  People have asked to take pictures with team members @ the restaurant.  They seemed to be intrigued by the Team Jackets... Hamburg seems to be a very USA Freindly town...
> More people in the general public seem to know about TKD.....Than the USA..



Interesting, I expected Taekwondo to be bigger in the US than it's over here. Due to the Lopez family and their Olympic story.

I mean, both countries are basically the countries where Taekwondo started outside of Korea. Both countries held the first Taekwondo World Championships outside of Korea. Both countries already won silver medals in the very first World Championship and were very successful in the early years with Germany even having world champions in the late 70s.


Since there's clubs nearly everywhere in Germany, Taekwondo's featured in local press all the time though. So people are aware of Taekwondo's existence, yet hardly anybody knows much about it.


Btw, it was cool to see USAT's new president as a referee at the German Open!


I remember when I was in Manchester and some Iranian guy saw my Hogu he immediately asked me if I did Taekwondo. When I asked him if he does it as well he said no, but it's huge in Iran and people like Yousef Karami are known by everybody in Iran. Well, in Germany hardly anybody who's not active in Taekwondo knows the names of the German athletes.


----------



## Gorilla

I have spoken to people in Germany who do who Daniel Manz is and Levent Tuncat...

There is a large Turkish population that is very familiar with Servet Tazegal...my perception might be skewed because we are being approached by people who know  TKD....
 it never happens in the USA...

People in USA TKD don't like the Lopez Clan in general!!!!





Metal said:


> Interesting, I expected Taekwondo to be bigger in the US than it's over here. Due to the Lopez family and their Olympic story.
> 
> I mean, both countries are basically the countries where Taekwondo started outside of Korea. Both countries held the first Taekwondo World Championships outside of Korea. Both countries already won silver medals in the very first World Championship and were very successful in the early years with Germany even having world champions in the late 70s.
> 
> 
> Since there's clubs nearly everywhere in Germany, Taekwondo's featured in local press all the time though. So people are aware of Taekwondo's existence, yet hardly anybody knows much about it.
> 
> 
> Btw, it was cool to see USAT's new president as a referee at the German Open!
> 
> 
> I remember when I was in Manchester and some Iranian guy saw my Hogu he immediately asked me if I did Taekwondo. When I asked him if he does it as well he said no, but it's huge in Iran and people like Yousef Karami are known by everybody in Iran. Well, in Germany hardly anybody who's not active in Taekwondo knows the names of the German athletes.


----------



## andyjeffries

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Bad in what way?



That Taekwondo fighters generally fight with their hands down, wear so many pads and don't have a clue how to defend a takedown (all in general).


----------



## Gorilla

andyjeffries said:


> That Taekwondo fighters generally fight with their hands down, wear so many pads and don't have a clue how to defend a takedown (all in general).


The grapplers that I know....BJJ BB and owner of a school...likes to get TKD BB's because of the flexibility and body knowledge....says they pick up BJJ very fast....teens learn very quickly when they switch from TKD....


----------



## Twin Fist

yes, i can see how a 100% stand up art that is 90% kicks would prepare someone for ground work.....................





that was sarcasm, btw


----------



## andyjeffries

Gorilla said:


> The grapplers that I know....BJJ BB and owner of a school...likes to get TKD BB's because of the flexibility and body knowledge....says they pick up BJJ very fast....teens learn very quickly when they switch from TKD....



I can understand they'd like TKD BB as students, but as non-BJJ-students they are generally looked down on over here.

I don't care though, I have a thick enough skin


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> yes, i can see how a 100% stand up art that is 90% kicks would prepare someone for ground work.....................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not he techs...it the flexibility and the ability to control ones body...but I don't expect you to understand


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> yes, i can see how a 100% stand up art that is 90% kicks would prepare someone for ground work.....................



That's odd. I distinctly remember being taught a number of locks, throws, takedowns and pressure point techniques when I studied Taekwon-Do. And "100% stand up art that is 90% kicks" doesn't apply to the Moo Duk Kwan and Kukkiwon affiliated school I'm with now either.

Perhaps you're confusing the word "sarcasm" with "fantasy"?


----------



## Gnarlie

Dammit I lost my post, and in the meantime DD has said what I was going to say. Gorilla, I understand what you mean, and Twin Fist, your sarcasm is factually incorrect. The KKW syllabus includes takedowns, locks, pressure point manipulation, seated and kneeling SD, basic ground manipulations, and the number of hand techniques outnumbers kicks by around 3 to 1.  The time dedicated to each aspect varies from school to school. Maybe the schools within your sphere of experience weren't that great, but that doesn't apply all over the world.

You seem to have a real negative view of KKW TKD, but I notice that you have studied TKD in the past. How is what you studied different? Has your view of KKW TKD always been like this or has it changed over time? What have you done to overcome the same perceived shortcomings in the style of TKD you studied? What advice would you offer to a KKW TKD practitioner to improve their SD and martial abilities? Let's have something constructive from you for a change.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

andyjeffries said:


> That Taekwondo fighters generally fight with their hands down, wear so many pads and don't have a clue how to defend a takedown (all in general).


The pad thing is what it is.  Funny how nobody criticizes boxers for wearing gloves as thick as a hogu (same amount of padding; just relocated), leaning in (a dynamic that came about because of gloves; bare knuckle fighters kept their heads back), or lack of defense against kicks and take downs.  

As for defending against takedowns, it may vary from school to school, but I suspect that in terms of the big picture, it probably isn't emphasized as much as it ought to be or in some cases at all.  I am hesitant to make a blanket statement, as I have seen substantial variance in schools local to me in this area, but given that, I'd say that the majority of what I have seen in this area do not emphasize it.

*Edit:* At non TKD schools that I have trained or visited, defense against takedowns was not emphasized either.  This includes two HKD schools, one karate school, and one Jinenkan Ninjitsu school.  I suspect that boxing gyms do not touch at all on this element either.  

 RE hands down, most all of my TKD instructors had us spar in ways other than just WTF, and all of the one steps were taught with the guard up.  In SD scenarios, we generally started off with our hands down because most of us don't go through our lives in a boxing guard.  Having your hands up or your hands down has nothing to do with how prepared one is to defend themselves outside of a regulated sparring match, regardless of whose rules you use.

Of course there is a flip side.  I've been at restaurants where UFC matches are on and while waiting at the bar for a table, I have heard guys comment about two dudes rolling on the floor and not throwing any punches, along with various off color remarks having to do with two sweaty guys rolling around on the floor grabbing at each other.  The comments are as stupid and uninformed as many of the supposedly technical criticisms of taekwondo.  

If someone really wants to find something to criticize in a martial art/fight sport, they will find it.  I think that the huge popularity with kids and suburban parents coupled with black belts on young children is the biggest area where the integrity of taekwondo can be called into question.  Not that childrens' classes or popularity with the parents is bad in and of itself, but it seems to be the area where the most compromises get made on the broadest level.  It also is the area where such extra cost things as blackbelt, masters, and leadership clubs come into play, as adult students generally are disinterested in such things.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Metal said:


> Interesting, I expected Taekwondo to be bigger in the US than it's over here. Due to the Lopez family and their Olympic story.
> 
> I mean, both countries are basically the countries where Taekwondo started outside of Korea. Both countries held the first Taekwondo World Championships outside of Korea. Both countries already won silver medals in the very first World Championship and were very successful in the early years with Germany even having world champions in the late 70s.
> 
> 
> Since there's clubs nearly everywhere in Germany, Taekwondo's featured in local press all the time though. So people are aware of Taekwondo's existence, yet hardly anybody knows much about it.
> 
> 
> Btw, it was cool to see USAT's new president as a referee at the German Open!
> 
> 
> I remember when I was in Manchester and some Iranian guy saw my Hogu he immediately asked me if I did Taekwondo. When I asked him if he does it as well he said no, but it's huge in Iran and people like Yousef Karami are known by everybody in Iran. Well, in Germany hardly anybody who's not active in Taekwondo knows the names of the German athletes.



In my experience, USA Taekwondo students who don't participate in WTF rules events don't know any of the "big" name American players. Perhaps a few might have heard of the Lopez family, but I don't think they would know much else, especially about past players/national team members like a Herb Perez or Juan Moreno. Depending on what part of the country you live in, Kukkiwon schools may have little to no presence. In those areas people know little to nothing about Olympic Taekwondo.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Jaeimseu said:


> In my experience, USA Taekwondo students who don't participate in WTF rules events don't know any of the "big" name American players. Perhaps a few might have heard of the Lopez family, but I don't think they would know much else, especially about past players/national team members like a Herb Perez or Juan Moreno. Depending on what part of the country you live in, Kukkiwon schools may have little to no presence. In those areas people know little to nothing about Olympic Taekwondo.


It's very hard to have that kind of awareness of players when they get no exposure whatsoever.  Olympic taekwondo isn't televised, there's no national coverage of the sport between the Olympics, and the big names are not prominently featured in any of their sponsors' promotional material outside of TKD Times, which most TKD students probably aren't reading anyway.  

With the Olympics serving as the only major venue for non practitioners to see the sport, it is hard to build up the kind of recognition that other sports enjoy.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> Having rules that promoted exciting matches *where people didn't fall down every time they kicked *would be a good thing, too, but I don't see that happening.


The falling down while scoring *really* detracts from the sport in my own opinion.  It is probably the biggest single flaw in the matches themselves.  Simply making a ruling that no point will be awarded if you fall down in the process would fix it too.


----------



## Gorilla

USAT Tkd only promotes the Lopez Clan and they do a very poor job at that!!!!

Most American TKD folks are fans of Aaron Cook and Servet Tazegul!!!!

Most people who know the sport in the USA understand that the Lopez Clan have served their interest at the cost of TKD in the USA...


----------



## Gnarlie

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The falling down while scoring *really* detracts from the sport in my own opinion.  It is probably the biggest single flaw in the matches themselves.  Simply making a ruling that no point will be awarded if you fall down in the process would fix it too.



I think you're right, and I don't understand how the rules are interpreted in such a way that contestants can get away with it so often.  The WTF rules are quite clear to me, look at the bits in bold below:

Invalidation of points: *When a contestant performs a scoring attack that incorporated the use of prohibited acts, the*
*points scored shall be annulled.* 

 Invalidation of a point: It is a rule that points gained through illegal techniques or actions cannot be valid. In this case, the referee mustindicate invalidation of the point by hand signal and declare the appropriate penalty. 

 (Guideline for officiating)
If the above situation occurs, the referee shall immediately declare &#8220;Kal-yeo&#8221; and shall first invalidate the point by hand signal, and thendeclare the appropriate penalty. 

 5 Prohibited acts
5.1 *The following acts shall be classified as prohibited acts*, and &#8220;Kyong-go&#8221; shall be declared.




 5.1.1  Crossing the Boundary Line
 

 5.1.2  Avoiding or delaying the match
 

*5.1.3  Falling down*
 

 5.1.4  Grabbing, holding or pushing the opponent
 

 5.1.5  Attacking below the waist
 

 5.1.6  Butting or attacking with the knee
 

 5.1.7  Hitting any part of the opponent&#8217;s head with the hand
 

 5.1.8  Uttering undesirable remarks or any misconduct on the part of a contestant or a coach
 5.1.9 Lifting the knee to avoid a valid attack or impede the progress of an attack

5.2 The following acts shall be classified as prohibited acts, and &#8220;Gam-jeom&#8221; shall be declared.




 5.2.1  Attacking the opponent after &#8220;Kal-yeo&#8221;
 

 5.2.2  Attacking the fallen opponent
 

 5.2.3  Throwing the opponent by grabbing or hooking the attacking foot in the air or by pushing the opponent
with the hand
 

 5.2.4  Intentionally attacking any part of the opponent&#8217;s head with the hand
 

 5.2.5  Intentionally attacking below the waist
 5.2.6 A coach or a contestant interrupting the progress of the match





 5.2.7  Violent or extreme remarks or behavior on the part of a contestant or a coach
 

*5.2.8  Intentionally avoiding the match*
 5.2.9 In case of using PSS, before each round of competition, the referee shall check whether any attemptswere made to manipulate the scoring system and/or increase sensitivity of the sensing socks, or anyother method. In the event that the referee finds intentional manipulation, the referee shall reserve theright to give &#8220;Gam-jeom&#8221; to the pertinent contestant and shall reserve the right to declare the violatingathlete as the loser by penalty based on the degree of seriousness of the violation. 

 

                            Avoiding or delaying the match:
This act involves stalling with no intention of attacking. A contestant who continuously displays a non-engaging style shall begiven a penalty. However, the referee shall distinguish intentional avoidance from tactical defense, and the penalty shall notbe given for tactical defense. If both contestants remain inactive after five (5) seconds, the center referee will signal the&#8220;Fight&#8221; command. A &#8220;Kyong-go&#8221; will be declared: On both contestants if there is no activity from them 10 seconds after thecommand was given; or on the contestant who moved backwards from the original position 10 seconds after the commandwas given.
*Turning the back to avoid the opponent&#8217;s attack and should be punished as it expresses the lack of a spirit of fair play andmay cause serious injury. The same penalty should also be given for evading the opponent&#8217;s attack by bending below waistlevel or crouching.*
                            &#8216;Pretending injury&#8217; means exaggerating injury or indicating pain in a body part not subjected to a blow for the purpose ofdemonstrating the opponent&#8217;s actions as a violation, and also exaggerating pain for the purpose of elapsing the match time.In this case, the referee shall give the indication to continue the match to the contestant two times in five (5) secondsintervals, and then shall give a &#8220;Kyong-go&#8221; penalty unless the contestant follows his/her instructions.
                            &#8220;Kyong-go&#8221; shall also be given to the athlete who asks the referee to stop the contest for any reason (for instance, in order toadjust position of protective equipment) or ask his/her coach to request for video replay 

*Falling down:*
*&#8216;Kyong-go&#8217; shall be immediately declared in the case of intentional falling down. In the case that a contestant falls down dueto the opponent&#8217;s prohibited acts; &#8216;Kyong-go&#8217; penalty shall not be given to the fallen contestant, while a penalty shall be givento the opponent. In the event a contestant falls as a result of incidental contact with the opponent, &#8220;Kyong-go&#8221; shall be givento the fallen contestant only for repeated falling. As for unintentional falling down during an exchange of technique, no penaltyshall be given. *


To me, that sounds like an invalidated point penalty is applicable for a single instance of falling, with a half point deduction for the fall and further full point deductions applicable for repeat occurrences which would fall under 'avoiding the match'. Or am I reading this wrong? Can anyone shed light?

I think part of the problem is that the responsibility for spotting and deciding intentional falling lies solely with the centre referee, who has a whole lot else on his plate during the match.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

So there is a rule against it, but they simply don't enforce it.


----------



## Gnarlie

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So there is a rule against it, but they simply don't enforce it.



It seems like sometimes they do, but it varies by tournament, like sometimes they have a clampdown on it. It's normally consistent within each tournament whether they do or do not, otherwise competitors and coaches would complain I guess.  That said, at tournaments where they try to enforce it (tends to be the locals rather than nationals and internationals), there are a greater number of complaints and appeals as it is so difficult to enforce consistently across the board.

I'd say it would take an extremely experienced, confident and relaxed referee who was a stickler for enforcing the letter of the law to be constantly aware of this enough to enforce it consistently. It almost needs a separate, extra set of eyes watching just for intentional falling.

Because there's been so much emphasis in recent years on increasing the entertainment factor and not disrupting the flow of the matches, I think there's been a move towards not enforcing this rule more than enforcing it.  If falling continues to detract from the entertainment factor in the way it has been doing, it won't be long before the game is adjusted to eliminate the problem.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I cannot honestly say if it detracts from the entertainment factor or not.  I also don't really care if the falling is intentional or not; if you can't stand up when you throw your kicks, you shouldn't be getting points for it.  The fact that it is enforced more at a local level than at the national (and apparently international) tells me that it simply isn't a priority. 

It is about the only thing that I can point to that I strongly dislike and consider to be 'bad' (as opposed to being a matter of tastes).


----------



## Twin Fist

*You seem to have a real negative view of KKW TKD
*you noticed that? i guess i wasnt being as subtle as i hoped....lol

*but I notice that you have studied TKD in the past. How is what you studied different?*
100% different, we learn self defense, we dont fall over, we dont wear hogu we punch people in the face. 

*Has your view of KKW TKD always been like this or has it changed over time?*
I think that teh KKW isnt the problem, the WTF is the problem, and the KKW feeds the problem.  And since i first saw olympic TKD in 88, i thought it was less than impressive. 

*What have you done to overcome the same perceived shortcomings in the style of TKD you studied?
*the American TKD i came up in didnt really have shortcommings, it was just a very basic art. When i was teaching, i added elements from other arts to round out the corners a bit.

*What advice would you offer to a KKW TKD practitioner to improve their SD and martial abilities?
*Depends, some KKW school teach decent self defense, if they are WTF sport school, leave and go study a real self defense art. ITF or American TKD, or better yet augment the sport sparring with something totally different, JJ, or Kenpo, maybe Kaju. 

*Let's have something constructive from you for a change
*i tried being constructive for YEARS, now i realize that the people invested in the WTF are blind to it's flaws, and dismissive of anyone that points them out. 

Dirty Dog,
that was rude. And i was referring to the sport school, where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two. That IS the subject of the thread after all. And just because your school wasnt like that, and my school wasnt like that, lets not be stupid and pretend no one is like that. MDK isnt like that, the Texas style of TKD isnt like that, but i wasnt speaking to ALL of TKD, i was speaking to the WTF schools.....

either i wasnt clear or you wernt paying attention


----------



## Gorilla

They call falling down if perceived to be intentional or multiple times!!!!

It happens at all levels local, national and international!

If touch your hand to the ground while kicking you will get a penalty!


----------



## Gnarlie

Gorilla said:


> They call falling down if perceived to be intentional or multiple times!!!!
> 
> It happens at all levels local, national and international!
> 
> If touch your hand to the ground while kicking you will get a penalty!



That's been my experience at some but not all tournaments both competing and spectating. I hope your experiences mean that the rule is being more consistently applied. Did you notice if it was applied in Hamburg?

Gnarlie


----------



## ATC

Gnarlie said:


> *As for unintentional falling down during an exchange of technique, no penalty shall be given.*


You seemed to have overlooked one small detail that you in fact listed.


----------



## Cyriacus

Gnarlie said:


> 5.1.4  Grabbing, holding or pushing the opponent



I would be disqualified before you can bat an eyelid


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Cyriacus said:


> I would be disqualAified before you can bat an eyelid


As would I


----------



## Gnarlie

ATC said:


> You seemed to have overlooked one small detail that you in fact listed.



I saw that, and it's sort of my point - the decision over intention is subjective and the rulebook places all the responsibility for making it on the centre ref.

Gnarlie


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> Dirty Dog,
> that was rude.



If I posted something rude, by all means hit the RTM button. The rules apply to me just as much as to you.



Twin Fist said:


> And i was referring to the sport school, where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two. That IS the subject of the thread after all. And just because your school wasnt like that, and my school wasnt like that, lets not be stupid and pretend no one is like that. MDK isnt like that, the Texas style of TKD isnt like that, but i wasnt speaking to ALL of TKD, i was speaking to the WTF schools.....
> 
> either i wasnt clear or you wernt paying attention



AH, I get it. When you say "100%" it doesn't really mean "100%".

If we're going to communicate, it helps if we use the standard meanings of words, rather than our own personal meanings.

Personally, I have never seena school "where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two", but I wouldn't ever claim that means there's no such thing (that would require me to say something about 100%, when I know it's not true...). But, since you claim to know of such a school, please tell me, specifically, what school it is. Shouldn't be difficult since (according to you) it's such a common phenomenon.

Odd, though, that the most sport-oriented posters here have made it quite clear that they certainly do not train in a place such as you describe.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Dirty Dog said:


> If I posted something rude, by all means hit the RTM button. The rules apply to me just as much as to you.
> 
> 
> 
> AH, I get it. When you say "100%" it doesn't really mean "100%".
> 
> If we're going to communicate, it helps if we use the standard meanings of words, rather than our own personal meanings.
> 
> Personally, I have never seena school "where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two", but I wouldn't ever claim that means there's no such thing (that would require me to say something about 100%, when I know it's not true...). But, since you claim to know of such a school, please tell me, specifically, what school it is. Shouldn't be difficult since (according to you) it's such a common phenomenon.
> 
> Odd, though, that the most sport-oriented posters here have made it quite clear that they certainly do not train in a place such as you describe.


We have quite a few schools over here that only teach sport sparring. No form, no self defence just wff competition sparring.


----------



## Jaeimseu

ralphmcpherson said:


> We have quite a few schools over here that only teach sport sparring. No form, no self defence just wff competition sparring.



How big are these schools? I think in the US the sport only model is financially unfeasible,with rare exceptions.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> How big are these schools? I think in the US the sport only model is financially unfeasible,with rare exceptions.


No idea to be honest. I have heard about them through mates who do tkd and advertising material  Ive seen. I imagine they appeal to students whose main goal is to compete. Its a place they can go and focus soley on that acpect of the art.


----------



## Cyriacus

ralphmcpherson said:


> No idea to be honest. I have heard about them through mates who do tkd and advertising material  Ive seen. I imagine they appeal to students whose main goal is to compete. Its a place they can go and focus soley on that acpect of the art.



The only one ive seen was at the PCYC - Considering the nature of PCYCs, that shouldnt be surprising. It had a fair few folks there though.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Cyriacus said:


> The only one ive seen was at the PCYC - Considering the nature of PCYCs, that shouldnt be surprising. It had a fair few folks there though.


yeah I saw one once at a PCYC (a long time ago though). Probably the same one


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> How big are these schools? I think in the US the sport only model is financially unfeasible,with rare exceptions.


I must admit, if either of my two kids were so exceptionally talented at sports tkd that they had a realistic chance of having real success in the sport I would probably rather they train at a place that focuses soley on the sport. I wouldnt want them wasting valuable time breaking timber or learning self defence moves. So I can see there is a place for schools like these. I imagine they would also attract teenages going through their "competitive years" where they just want to compete as much as possible and arent as into the whole "martial art" side of things.


----------



## Jaeimseu

ralphmcpherson said:


> I must admit, if either of my two kids were so exceptionally talented at sports tkd that they had a realistic chance of having real success in the sport I would probably rather they train at a place that focuses soley on the sport. I wouldnt want them wasting valuable time breaking timber or learning self defence moves. So I can see there is a place for schools like these. I imagine they would also attract teenages going through their "competitive years" where they just want to compete as much as possible and arent as into the whole "martial art" side of things.



I agree. I think it would be incredibly difficult as an instructor to have enough "top level" competitors from one locale to make it possible to earn a living doing it. If you made a name for yourself as an athlete or coach I suppose it would be possible to draw people from a bigger pool.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> They call falling down if perceived to be intentional or multiple times!!!!
> 
> It happens at all levels local, national and international!
> 
> If touch your hand to the ground while kicking you will get a penalty!


Personally, I think that if you fall down while delivering the kick, you shouldn't receive any points.  Whether or not it is intentional is irrelevant.  It simply looks bad, and if it is intentional, it actually looks worse.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> And i was referring to the sport school, where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two.


Schools like that simply don't exist in this area, probably in this state, but I'm not willing to go that far.  Suffice it to say that I've never seen one.  I've seen some lousy schools, but I have not seen any, anywhere that conform to the model you describe.



Twin Fist said:


> That IS the subject of the thread after all.


Actually, it isn't.  The subject of the thread is the question, "Has Olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?"

I've seen a few answers in the postitive, but none of those posters have actually said _how_.  

They've said why Olympic Taekwondo doesn't appeal to them/look like what they're doing/their kid doesn't recognize it as taekwondo/isn't self defense, all of which may be true and accurate (it doesn't appeal to everyone, doesn't look like the sparring in all TKD schools, isn't what everyone does, and some people who don't practice it are unlikely to recognize it, and no fight sport is the same as self defense), but has no relation to the repuation of the art.

The existence, quality, or viability of sport only schools would actually be a different subject.



Twin Fist said:


> And just because your school wasnt like that, and my school wasnt like that, lets not be stupid and pretend no one is like that.


None the schools where I have trained have been like this either.  Have you actually _seen_ schools like this in any quantity?  Or do you just hear about them?  Serious question, no sarcasm.  

I've never actually seen one.  I've seen some great schools, some lousy schools, and one great school morph into an overpriced child care center, but I have never seen would amount to a WTF gym.



Twin Fist said:


> MDK isnt like that, the Texas style of TKD isnt like that, but i wasnt speaking to ALL of TKD, i was speaking to the WTF schools....


And that's the rub.  There are schools that teach sparring and have students who compete in WTF sanctioned tournaments.  But while there is a KKW certification program for schools, so far as I know, there is no such program in the WTF, which would mean that there are not any "WTF schools" to speak to.

I don't know about other parts of the US, but a sport only school would not be financially viable in this area.  Even a school with an elite team and a gold medalist for a coach would have a very difficult time surviving here.


----------



## Gnarlie

Sport only schools do exist in the UK, and in my view that's no bad thing. They feed the tounament circuit and the elite athlete training programmes. These people recognise that what they are doing is a sport, and schools like this contribute greatly to the UK's success on the international circuit. Where's the issue? Those who want a full tkd syllabus, like me, can still find it.

Those fencers really detract from the reputation of general swordsmanship, too.

Gnarlie


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gnarlie said:


> Sport only schools do exist in the UK, and in my view that's no bad thing. They feed the tounament circuit and the elite athlete training programmes. These people recognise that what they are doing is a sport, and schools like this contribute greatly to the UK's success on the international circuit. Where's the issue? Those who want a full tkd syllabus, like me, can still find it.


Good and bad are relative terms, depending on you're perspective, but I agree with you.



Gnarlie said:


> Those fencers really detract from the reputation of general swordsmanship, too.


Yes, I've seen that argument as well.  I disagree.  I have participated in sport fencing on and off over the years and find it to be very enjoyable.  While I tend to be more classically minded, I think that it is great that people still fence.  The format is less important than the fact that people are fencing.


----------



## Gnarlie

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Good and bad are relative terms, depending on you're perspective, but I agree with you.
> 
> 
> Yes, I've seen that argument as well.  I disagree.  I have participated in sport fencing on and off over the years and find it to be very enjoyable.  While I tend to be more classically minded, I think that it is great that people still fence.  The format is less important than the fact that people are fencing.



That was semi sarcasm about the fencing, I was trying to illustrate that sport TKD and the full TKD syllabus are as different as sport fencing and swordsmanship. Or sport fencing and building actual fences, for that matter.

But I am in no way saying that that is a negative thing. Horses for courses, strokes for folks etc.

Gnarlie


----------



## Jaeimseu

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Good and bad are relative terms, depending on you're perspective, but I agree with you.
> 
> 
> Yes, I've seen that argument as well.  I disagree.  I have participated in sport fencing on and off over the years and find it to be very enjoyable.  While I tend to be more classically minded, I think that it is great that people still fence.  The format is less important than the fact that people are fencing.



Fencing is terrible. They bounce around with one hand behind them and they don't seem to have any takedown defense. Oh, and they don't punch to the face! 

I think fencing has probably been every bit as damaging to tkd's reputation as Olympic competition.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Jaeimseu said:


> Fencing is terrible. They bounce around with one hand behind them and they don't seem to have any takedown defense. Oh, and they don't punch to the face!


Well, if you don't mind being black carded you can.


----------



## Cyriacus

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, if you don't mind being black carded you can.


So if i learn fencing i can just grab someones floppy stick thing and punch them in their face?


----------



## Gorilla

Jaeimseu said:


> Fencing is terrible. They bounce around with one hand behind them and they don't seem to have any takedown defense. Oh, and they don't punch to the face!
> 
> I think fencing has probably been every bit as damaging to tkd's reputation as Olympic competition.



Now that is funny!!!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Cyriacus said:


> So if i learn fencing i can just grab someones floppy stick thing and punch them in their face?


You may attempt it.  Use of the off hand to deflect, grab, or in any way manipulate an opponent's blade is prohibited and will result in appropriate action.  Punching them in the face would mean ejection from the match and forteiture, and may result in other, possibly longer lasting measures as well.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Jaeimseu said:


> Fencing is terrible. They bounce around with one hand behind them and they don't seem to have any takedown defense. Oh, and they don't punch to the face!
> 
> I think fencing has probably been every bit as damaging to tkd's reputation as Olympic competition.




Well, if fencing in any way presented itself as teaching a martial art you might have a parallel here. But really, it's not the same thing unless you're going to argue that KKW Taekwondo is so far removed from its origin as a martial art as to be only worthwhile as a sporting event. I don't know, maybe that's your position or that of the KKW. But when I fenced in high school there was no sort of pretension that we were learning - or being taught - anything that would be applicable to using an actual sword. It was a game, that's all. 

YMMV as far as your experience with fencing.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Gnarlie

chrispillertkd said:


> Well, if fencing in any way presented itself as teaching a martial art you might have a parallel here. But really, it's not the same thing unless you're going to argue that KKW Taekwondo is so far removed from its origin as a martial art as to be only worthwhile as a sporting event. I don't know, maybe that's your position or that of the KKW. But when I fenced in high school there was no sort of pretension that we were learning - or being taught - anything that would be applicable to using an actual sword. It was a game, that's all.
> 
> YMMV as far as your experience with fencing.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



WTF competition is a game. KKW TKD and it's distant cousins remain martial arts in my view. WTF sport and KKW TKD are as separate and distinct as fencing and martial swordsmanship, with just as great a difference. That's my point.

Gnarlie


----------



## Gorilla

Gnarlie said:


> WTF competition is a game. KKW TKD and it's distant cousins remain martial arts in my view. WTF sport and KKW TKD are as separate and distinct as fencing and martial swordsmanship, with just as great a difference. That's my point.
> 
> Gnarlie[/
> 
> Agreed Gnarlie.....Olympic Sport Tkd is a sport. It is not a self def art it is a sport pure and simple.
> 
> None of the Sport TKD people on this BBS have ever claimed any different.
> 
> Distant cousins at best!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Mr. President said:


> Boxing is different. There are no points awarded for a good punch. It's either KO or an all around better performance.


Not true. 



Mr. President said:


> In TKD you stand there with those shields on you, and if you place a kick on your opponent's torso it's 1:0. That's enough to turn it into a very hesitant, coy affair with only the occasional half-assed offensive attempt.


I suppose it depends on how you define "coy" and "hesitant."  Since we're talking about Olympic taekwondo (taekwondo in the Olympics) I will agree to disagree with the "occasional half-assed offensive attempt" remark.

Here is a match at the 2004 Olympics between Korea and Greece: 



Nothing hesitant, coy, or half assed about any of it.  The Korean athlete wins by KO.  My only criticism of the match was his falling down after scoring. 

Anyway, I've seen matches in other fight sports between high level athletes that are not unending slugfests or constant action.  Any fight sport has a mental game to it, and any good fighter knows that just blindly and abruptly charging in is foolish.  



Mr. President said:


> Watch it.


Link it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> But when I fenced in high school there was no sort of pretension that we were learning - or being taught - anything that would be applicable to using an actual sword. It was a game, that's all.



If you were taught right of way and how to properly parry, thrust, feint, disengage, cut over, bind, glide, expel, envelope or beat, then you were taught quite a bit that would be applicable to using an actual sword.


----------



## dancingalone

Gorilla said:


> Agreed Gnarlie.....Olympic Sport Tkd is a sport. It is not a self def art it is a sport pure and simple.
> 
> None of the Sport TKD people on this BBS have ever claimed any different.
> 
> Distant cousins at best!



As a mere point of clarification, there have been some in the past that have conflated the two to an extent.  Something on the lines that developing distance awareness, timing, speed, and power will help you in any setting, including SD.

There's a lot of truth to that statement by the way, but the people who insist that you are what you train have a sound argument too.  Anyway, not really interested in arguing the sport vs. sd thing, so bowing out if anyone wants to discuss that particular tangent.


----------



## Gnarlie

dancingalone said:


> As a mere point of clarification, there have been some in the past that have conflated the two to an extent.  Something on the lines that developing distance awareness, timing, speed, and power will help you in any setting, including SD.
> 
> There's a lot of truth to that statement by the way, but the people who insist that you are what you train have a sound argument too.  Anyway, not really interested in arguing the sport vs. sd thing, so bowing out if anyone wants to discuss that particular tangent.



Agree.  There are also elements of rugby, football, squash etc that can help you with SD, for example the ability to coordinate your limbs independently and footwork. Yeah the sport/SD thing is done, I just wanted to make clear that WTF sport and KKW TKD are not necessarily one and the same.  I'm done now.


----------



## Gorilla

Some aspects of all athletic endeavors are helpful in self-defense!  Even SPORT TKD.....Yet that does not make them self defense!


----------



## dancingalone

Gorilla said:


> Some aspects of all athletic endeavors are helpful in self-defense!  Even SPORT TKD.....Yet that does not make them self defense!



True enough.  To be clear, I don't disagree with this statement myself.  I was merely mentioning that in fact some have in fact juxtaposed the two in previous discussions, where they state that training Olympic rules TKD will make you an effective street fighter in of itself due to developing speed, timing, etc.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Gnarlie said:


> WTF competition is a game. KKW TKD and it's distant cousins remain martial arts in my view. WTF sport and KKW TKD are as separate and distinct as fencing and martial swordsmanship, with just as great a difference. That's my point.
> 
> Gnarlie



But people who teach and practice fencing don't also go around saying their "swordsmen." Many KKW Taekwondo people do. There's nothing left of the fencing syllabus once you've got fencing competition. That isn't the case for KKW Taekwondo. Fencing doesn't take "martial swordsmanship" and have you compete with it under a rule set. There really just isn't a parallel here at all. 

If there really is such a dramatic break between WTF competitions and KKW Taekwondo then it might behove the WTF to change the name of what they're doing from Taekwondo to something else. Otherwise you're going to continue to have people bring up the same critiques of its competition rules and lump that in with the KKW. If they're really different things then you have no one to blame for such confusion except the WTF and KKW.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Twin Fist

see, 1) i dont like to live that way, i preferre to address my own problems, not put them off on other people.

and 2) you're a nurse, i am a nurse, i thought some professional courtesy might be enough.

and 3) you are still being sarcastic to the point of being rude. 

Are you feeling bad or do you just not like me very much? mind you, i dont give a crap either way, but i like to know where i stand.



Dirty Dog said:


> If I posted something rude, by all means hit the RTM button. The rules apply to me just as much as to you.
> 
> 
> 
> AH, I get it. When you say "100%" it doesn't really mean "100%".
> 
> If we're going to communicate, it helps if we use the standard meanings of words, rather than our own personal meanings.
> 
> Personally, I have never seena school "where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two", but I wouldn't ever claim that means there's no such thing (that would require me to say something about 100%, when I know it's not true...). But, since you claim to know of such a school, please tell me, specifically, what school it is. Shouldn't be difficult since (according to you) it's such a common phenomenon.
> 
> Odd, though, that the most sport-oriented posters here have made it quite clear that they certainly do not train in a place such as you describe.


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Actually, it isn't.  The subject of the thread is the question, "Has Olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?" I've seen a few answers in the postitive, but none of those posters have actually said _how_.




no, several people, myself included have said, in very clear terms HOW we think it has effected the reputation of TKD as a whole. 

You just dont agree, so you dont see it as valid.

your opinion doesnt invalidate thiers, it just means you disagree.

You used to be much more open minded and much less KKW fanboy-ish. What happened?


----------



## Twin Fist

Gorilla said:


> Agreed Gnarlie.....Olympic Sport Tkd is a sport. It is not a self def art it is a sport pure and simple.
> 
> None of the Sport TKD people on this BBS have ever claimed any different.



then call it something else


----------



## Gnarlie

Twin Fist said:


> then call it something else



It is called something else. WTF rather than KKW or ITF or KTA or TAGB or TexMexRex.

Gnarlie


----------



## Twin Fist

as long as it is called TKD, the problem still exists.

if i make my own soft drink, but call it coke, the coke drinkers will have a problem with it. and the population that samples my new confection will, if they dont know any better, think my drink, for better or worse, IS coke

but it isnt.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> see, 1) i dont like to live that way, i preferre to address my own problems, not put them off on other people.



So what problem are you trying to address by making false claims?



Twin Fist said:


> and 2) you're a nurse, i am a nurse, i thought some professional courtesy might be enough.



Irrelevent here, but if you talk to patients the way you talk to people here, I feel sorry for them.



Twin Fist said:


> and 3) you are still being sarcastic to the point of being rude.



Don't much like it when someone talks to you the way you talk to others, eh? Might be a lesson there...



Twin Fist said:


> Are you feeling bad or do you just not like me very much? mind you, i dont give a crap either way, but i like to know where i stand.



You're sarcastic and rude, but gripe when someone speaks to you in the same tone. You make false statements and don't see why that's a problem.

I would personally very much like to see the ruleset used in the Olympics changed to allow more of the full art of taekwondo to be shown. The SPORT of taekwondo is what it is, and is only a subset of the art. Neither detracts from the other, and the assumption that someone who competes in the sport side cannot also practice the art is foolish. Posting things that are incorrect (references to WTF schools, which don't exist) or outright lies is not helpful to the discussion.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> as long as it is called TKD, the problem still exists.



So you'll be changing the name of the art you practice then, and stop calling it TKD?


----------



## Gnarlie

Poking someone with a pointy piece of metal in a face helmet is called fencing.  So is building fences.  Nobody mixes them up, because in the eyes of anyone with eyes they are clearly distinct and separate.

What you studied as TKD and this sport are separate. Kukkiwon TKD and this sport are separate. The sport is one of the many types of sparring open to you if you study KKW TKD. It's not the be all end all. People aren't stupid, and in my experience if you clearly articulate to them that there is a difference and what the difference is, then there's no problem.

The problem only arises when you a) don't articulate the difference clearly enough or b) they have already made up their mind and there's nothing you can do to change it. In the first case, you've only got yourself to blame, and in the latter case, well, there's nothing you can do, but why does it matter what such narrow-minded people think about what you do? It matters what you think about what you do, and that's all.


----------



## Twin Fist

*So what problem are you trying to address by making false claims?*
I didnt make any false claims
*
Irrelevent here, but if you talk to patients the way you talk to people here, I feel sorry for them.*
personal insult AGAIN
*
Don't much like it when someone talks to you the way you talk to others, eh? Might be a lesson there...*
personal insult again
*
You're sarcastic and rude, but gripe when someone speaks to you in the same tone. You make false statements and don't see why that's a problem.*
several personal insults

*I would personally very much like to see the ruleset used in the Olympics changed to allow more of the full art of taekwondo to be shown. The SPORT of taekwondo is what it is, and is only a subset of the art. Neither detracts from the other,
*in your opinion, not in mine
*
 and the assumption that someone who competes in the sport side cannot also practice the art is foolish.*
No one said that CANT, i said they generally DONT, and that is, in my experience, true
*
 Posting things that are incorrect (references to WTF schools, which don't exist) or outright lies is not helpful to the discussion*
now you are just outright lying about me. Ralph talked about the exact same thing, as in the types of schools that teach ONLY sport sparring, but somehow I am lying....is he lying too? or are you just making **** up??

seriously, Did you BUY that moderators tag?


----------



## Twin Fist

it has been stated on this very board, by many, including some very high ranked folks, that if you are not doing WTF KKW, you are not doing TKD.  so you can bet that that message gets passed to the potential customer. thecustomer thinks thats true, and they sgn up little johnny, thinking little johnny will learn some self defense. 

but he doesnt, not in the sport focused schools. 

THATS THE PROBLEM

plus they wear BB's, so the public sees that, thinks it means what it is SUPPOSED to mean

THATS THE PROBLEM

I would be a full supporter of the WTF style of sparring, if, in thier tourny's they didnt call it TKD and didnt wear BB's



Gnarlie said:


> Poking someone with a pointy piece of metal in a face helmet is called fencing.  So is building fences.  Nobody mixes them up, because in the eyes of anyone with eyes they are clearly distinct and separate.
> 
> What you studied as TKD and this sport are separate. Kukkiwon TKD and this sport are separate. The sport is one of the many types of sparring open to you if you study KKW TKD. It's not the be all end all. People aren't stupid, and in my experience if you clearly articulate to them that there is a difference and what the difference is, then there's no problem.
> 
> The problem only arises when you a) don't articulate the difference clearly enough or b) they have already made up their mind and there's nothing you can do to change it. In the first case, you've only got yourself to blame, and in the latter case, well, there's nothing you can do, but why does it matter what such narrow-minded people think about what you do? It matters what you think about what you do, and that's all.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> yes, i can see how a 100% stand up art that is 90% kicks would prepare someone for ground work.....................





Twin Fist said:


> *So what problem are you trying to address by making false claims?*
> I didnt make any false claims



There you go. I quoted it to refresh your memory.
TKD is neither 100% standup nor 90% kicks. A false claim. Posted by...let's see... oh, that would be YOU...



Twin Fist said:


> *
> Posting things that are incorrect (references to WTF schools, which don't exist) or outright lies is not helpful to the discussion*
> now you are just outright lying about me. Ralph talked about the exact same thing, as in the types of schools that teach ONLY sport sparring, but somehow I am lying....is he lying too? or are you just making **** up??



Do you deny refering "WTF schools", which do not exist? I can provide another quote, if your memory needs refreshing again.
And of course, Ralph was never silly enough to claim that WTF schools exist, nor that TKD is "100% standup", nor that it is "90% kicks".



Twin Fist said:


> seriously, Did you BUY that moderators tag?



You'll have to ask Bob about that...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> it has been stated on this very board, by many, including some very high ranked folks, that if you are not doing WTF KKW, you are not doing TKD.



Again, a claim I'd very much like to see supported.


----------



## Dirty Dog

ralphmcpherson said:


> We have quite a few schools over here that only teach sport sparring. No form, no self defence just wff competition sparring.



Interesting. I've never seen such a place myself. How big are they? Do they claim to be teaching a martial art, or are they up front about what they're teaching?


----------



## Twin Fist

Lookie here "Dog"*

TKD is neither 100% standup nor 90% kicks. A false claim. Posted by...let's see... oh, that would be YOU...*
your lack of reading comprehension is showing, since I was CLEARLY referring to WTF style, you know, the SUBJECT OF THE WHOLE THREAD??? WTF style is 100% stand up and 90% kicks....

 I was right, you can admitt it. But you prob wont 

*Do you deny refering "WTF schools", which do not exist? I can provide another quote, if your memory needs refreshing again.*
I said that schools exist that teach only wtf style sparring, and they do. Ralph even backed me up on that. So either your memory is bad, your comprehension is bad, or you are just being obtuse

you lose "dog"


----------



## Twin Fist

Dirty Dog said:


> Again, a claim I'd very much like to see supported.



puuni said it multiple times. So did Dan Cole...both high ranked TKD people. Not my fault you didnt see it 

me=right
you=wrong

AGAIN


----------



## Twin Fist

I am starting to get irritated at the intentional provocation going on in this thread so i am out.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Twin Fist said:


> ][/B]seriously, Did you BUY that moderators tag?





Dirty Dog said:


> You'll have to ask Bob about that...


*
For the record here, DD is posting as a member. All members, including myself are subject to the sites TOS.
If there's a violation, report it and it will be reviewed and dealt with if need be.

As to "buying" a mod position here, no. It's been tried. They failed. It's been suggested. They were wrong. Mods and supporting members have been infracted, suspended and even banned. My instructor was suspended. So was I. I've also banned paying clients from here who were paying me a lot more than $22/yr. 

So take the personal shots private or drop em all ready. *


----------



## jks9199

Just in case Bob's post was unclear:

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator
*

A word to the wise beyond that... I'm tired.  My back hurts, and I've got a long day yet to go.  This time tomorrow, I'm willing to bet my response to personal shots in this thread will involve points...


----------



## Gorilla

Great Thread!

Getting allot of views!


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Dirty Dog said:


> Interesting. I've never seen such a place myself. How big are they? Do they claim to be teaching a martial art, or are they up front about what they're teaching?


I really dont know as Ive never been into one, although they generally have "taekwondo" written on their signage. I do believe there is a market for them, and not just for elite fighters either. Occasionally we will get a new student where all they want to do is compete, as often as they can, once a week if they can find enough touranaments, and yet they are new to the art. We cant accomodate such students and advise them of schools where they can compete, but a "sport only" school would suit exactly what they are looking for in my opinion. As far as whether they are up front about what they are teaching, I suppose from a student's perspective they will get a kkw cert whether they train there or a non sport kkw club, so they probably figure same cert = same thing. I would imagine, however, that students interested only in competing would find these clubs through word of mouth etc, I doubt little johhnys mum just wanders in thinking its the "whole" art, but Im only guessing.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Twin Fist said:


> puuni said it multiple times. So did Dan Cole...both high ranked TKD people. Not my fault you didnt see it
> 
> me=right
> you=wrong
> 
> AGAIN


puuini and mastercole said it repeatedly, over and over and over again......


----------



## ATC

OKAY!!!! Again with the WTF style vs. blah blah blah... There is no WTF style. There is WTF rules sparring and that is it. There is KKW and ITF. WTF is an org that sets the rules of Olympic sparring. That is it. The WTF does not create any forms, nor do they tell you how to kick, punch, grab, knee, or any other technique. They do set a set of rules for competition sparring and poomsae. They do nothing more than that. Not sure how much clearer it can be stated.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

ATC said:


> OKAY!!!! Again with the WTF style vs. blah blah blah... There is no WTF style. There is WTF rules sparring and that is it. There is KKW and ITF. WTF is an org that sets the rules of Olympic sparring. That is it. The WTF does not create any forms, nor do they tell you how to kick, punch, grab, knee, or any other technique. They do set a set of rules for competition sparring and poomsae. They do nothing more than that. Not sure how much clearer it can be stated.


I think everyone knows this. People have a habit of saying wtf when they mean kukkiwon.  When someone says "blah, blah blah at a wtf club" they just mean a kkw club, we all know what they mean. Its like when people call rugby league "nrl" or basketball "nbl", we all know what they mean, its just the way some people say it. If I had a dollar for every question on the internet that says "is wtf or itf tkd better?", Id be a millionaire  Its highly unlikely that a kkw club would spar using ITF rules, or wear itf doboks, so Im not confused when someone says kkw but means wtf or vice versa. Actually a friend of mine is a third degree kkw black belt and refers to what he does as "wtf tkd", so even kkw people use the terminology.


----------



## Jaeimseu

I suggest that we just resurrect one of many old/dead threads if we want to argue sport vs art for the hundred millionth times


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> I suggest that we just resurrect one of many old/dead threads if we want to argue sport vs art for the hundred millionth times


I think the fact the subject gets done over and over means two things, firstly people are very interested in the topic otherwise the thread would die out , not go on for 17 pages. Secondly, people are passionate about the subject. For those not interesred, simply ignore the threads regarding sport vs art. Easy


----------



## Jaeimseu

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think the fact the subject gets done over and over means two things, firstly people are very interested in the topic otherwise the thread would die out , not go on for 17 pages. Secondly, people are passionate about the subject. For those not interesred, simply ignore the threads regarding sport vs art. Easy



I agree that there is always lots of interest. We should just pick one of those threads and keep it all in one place.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Maybe a better question for this thread would be....

Which has had the most harmful effect on taekwondo's reputation, Olympic Taekwondo or anti-Olympic Taekwondo ramblings on the Internet?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> Maybe a better question for this thread would be....
> 
> Which has had the most harmful effect on taekwondo's reputation, Olympic Taekwondo or anti-Olympic Taekwondo ramblings on the Internet?


...or, what has brought about all the anti-olympic tkd ramblings on the internet


----------



## Jaeimseu

ralphmcpherson said:


> ...or, what has brought about all the anti-olympic tkd ramblings on the internet



That might be an interesting topic...if we could avoid the "because WTF sucks" comments. Of course, then someone like me will respond that I think it's largely ignorance that has brought it about. Then someone will get annoyed because they've been called ignorant and call me an apologist or a WTF fanboy. 

Internet forum fun!!! In between the stupid stuff we'll probably have a good discussion^^


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Jaeimseu said:


> That might be an interesting topic...if we could avoid the "because WTF sucks" comments. Of course, then someone like me will respond that I think it's largely ignorance that has brought it about. Then someone will get annoyed because they've been called ignorant and call me an apologist or a WTF fanboy.
> 
> Internet forum fun!!! In between the stupid stuff we'll probably have a good discussion^^


In all fairness, if you go back and read the whole thread there has been very little "wtf sucks" comments. I am probably one of the more vocal here when it comes to this subject, but I will always give credit to the wtf fighters, their skill, fitness, speed etc. I am definetely no fan of wtf sparring, far from it, but you will not see me using deragatory terms, and the same can be said for 99.9% of posters.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Twin Fist said:


> THATS THE PROBLEM
> 
> plus they wear BB's, so the public sees that, thinks it means what it is SUPPOSED to mean
> 
> THATS THE PROBLEM
> 
> I would be a full supporter of the WTF style of sparring, if, in thier tourny's they didnt call it TKD and didnt wear BB's



People here in this forum, who presumably have some kind of knowledge, don't usually concur on what "black belt" means. It's highly subjective and differs from school to school. 

You seem to be approaching this from the very narrow perspective that black belt is SUPPOSED to mean what you think it means, and that if someone doesn't see it that way then THATS THE PROBLEM. Isn't it possible that the problem could be in the way you are viewing the topic. 

Why should they not use the name Taekwondo? Because it's not the same as YOUR Taekwondo? Americans have football and the rest of the world has football. They aren't the same. But I (as an American) wouldn't suggest that the rest of the world not use the name "football."


----------



## Jaeimseu

ralphmcpherson said:


> In all fairness, if you go back and read the whole thread there has been very little "wtf sucks" comments. I am probably one of the more vocal here when it comes to this subject, but I will always give credit to the wtf fighters, their skill, fitness, speed etc. I am definetely no fan of wtf sparring, far from it, but you will not see me using deragatory terms, and the same can be said for 99.9% of posters.



I think that you're right, at least as far as outright bashing. Most commonly it's more subtle, for example posing a question like this thread's title could be seen as offering a negative view of Olympic TKD. Phrasing the question in a different way, "what kind of influence has Olympic TKD had on tkd's reputation?" for example, would read a little more objectively, IMHO. 

Please note that I don't take any issue with thoughtful criticism, which many posters do indeed produce.


----------



## Metal

The question could also be "How has ITF and other smaller association's style sparring affected Taekwondo's reputation?"


Well, some people may see it is Kickboxing in uniforms, some people may see it as a copy of Karate and some other may complain that they're wearing hand and food safeties. Plus it's
strange when there's world-, continental- or national champions in every town. ;-)


Talking about Kukkiwon and WTF, while Kukkiwon is issuing the certificates and setting the technique standards, WTF is the driving force behind the worldwide growth of Taekwondo.


So what did WTF Taekwondo competition do for Taekwondo?


It made it possible for Taekwondo to spread all over the world and be practiaed in more that 200 countries.


At this year's Poomsae world championship it was great to see former Kyorugi players having went on to Poomsae.


It's not like Sport Taekwondo keeps you from looking further into the art once your competition days are over.


----------



## andyjeffries

Gnarlie said:


> Sport only schools do exist in the UK, and in my view that's no bad thing. They feed the tounament circuit and the elite athlete training programmes.



Out of interest, assuming they are not ashamed of being sport only, could you name a few examples?

I'm in the UK and don't know of any pure sport schools.  I know some that focus heavily on it, but I don't know any that are exclusive (GB National Academy aside).


----------



## andyjeffries

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think everyone knows this. People have a habit of saying wtf when they mean kukkiwon.  When someone says "blah, blah blah at a wtf club" they just mean a kkw club, we all know what they mean. Its like when people call rugby league "nrl" or basketball "nbl", we all know what they mean, its just the way some people say it.



Just to be clear, when you say "we all know" I assume you're talking about all the members of this board.  Bearing in mind that this is an international forum, if you'd have just said "NRL" I'd have no idea what it refers to and I'm English (so Rugby League is a very normal sport to be talked about).  To be honest, when I wrote the initials when typing this reply I confused it for a moment with the NRA (which is not an organisation that many Brits would be aware of or certainly have it spring to mind just from the initials without context).

That happens quite a bit, people assume that everyone on this forum is American, but it's really not the case ;-)


----------



## Gnarlie

andyjeffries said:


> Out of interest, assuming they are not ashamed of being sport only, could you name a few examples?
> 
> I'm in the UK and don't know of any pure sport schools.  I know some that focus heavily on it, but I don't know any that are exclusive (GB National Academy aside).



I'm as careful with other people's identities online as I am with my own. If you want to find a few, ask the gold winners at local level tournaments in and around Doncaster, Manchester and Kendal where they train. A sport only club is sensible if you want to win tournaments. There are quite a few I can think of where poomsae and other elements of tge KKW syllabus are given only the most cursory of glances.

Gnarlie


----------



## ralphmcpherson

andyjeffries said:


> Just to be clear, when you say "we all know" I assume you're talking about all the members of this board.  Bearing in mind that this is an international forum, if you'd have just said "NRL" I'd have no idea what it refers to and I'm English (so Rugby League is a very normal sport to be talked about).  To be honest, when I wrote the initials when typing this reply I confused it for a moment with the NRA (which is not an organisation that many Brits would be aware of or certainly have it spring to mind just from the initials without context).
> 
> That happens quite a bit, people assume that everyone on this forum is American, but it's really not the case ;-)



Thats why I used nrl as my example. I don't know enough about American sports, but I'm worried about what you guys are going to do to us in the ashes later this year


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gnarlie said:


> I'm as careful with other people's identities online as I am with my own. If you want to find a few, ask the gold winners at local level tournaments in and around Doncaster, Manchester and Kendal where they train. A sport only club is sensible if you want to win tournaments. There are quite a few I can think of where poomsae and other elements of tge KKW syllabus are given only the most cursory of glances.
> 
> Gnarlie



Is it really a "sport only club" if they're giving any attention at all to other areas of TKD? To my mind, that would be "sport-oriented", with "sport only" meaning no poomsae, no SD training, no nothing except training to spar using a given ruleset (worded that way to allow the possibility of non-Olympic sport only clubs).


----------



## Kframe

Jaeimseu said:


> People here in this forum, who presumably have some kind of knowledge, don't usually concur on what "black belt" means. It's highly subjective and differs from school to school.
> 
> You seem to be approaching this from the very narrow perspective that black belt is SUPPOSED to mean what you think it means, and that if someone doesn't see it that way then THATS THE PROBLEM. Isn't it possible that the problem could be in the way you are viewing the topic.
> 
> Why should they not use the name Taekwondo? Because it's not the same as YOUR Taekwondo? Americans have football and the rest of the world has football. They aren't the same. But I (as an American) wouldn't suggest that the rest of the world not use the name "football."



Jaeimseu you are missing Twinfists point. He is talking bout the normal average public joe blow off the street. THEY think Black belt means expert, despite that most here don't feel that way.  So Joe Blow public sees these Olympic guys, wearing black belts and using the name Tae Kwon Do and assume that is how the art functions.  How could they not draw that conclusion, even a casual google search of TKD sparring will bring up Way more videos of WTF style sparring then any other.   Heck I was ready to sign up at a TKD place, to follow my old mans footsteps. I just happen to casually check out more info on TKD online and that's when I discovered all the sparring videos, wtf sparring videos, vastly out ranking any other kind.  I was turned off by it, because I wanted real TKD, art tkd, self defense tkd, not hands at my sides, bouncy crapkwondo. Further reading lead me to the conclusion that as a predominantly stand up striking art, TKD does not teach take down defense in any meaningfull way. 

EtinCyqx yes you may also do grappling arts as well, so your take down defense will be good. You represent the minority of TKD, not the majority. 

Honestly, if I knew that the local KKW TKD place, taught takedown defense, and a real fight stance and method, not wtf stuff, id more then likely sign up. I am not satisfied with my striking ability or skill set, and tkd, would imho be a good place to start, if I could find quality instruction.


----------



## Twin Fist

for 60 years now, the PUBLIC has been told that martial arts are about self defense. Thats why people by and large start taking martial art classes.

self defense

that entire time, the public has been told that a black belt means a certain level of skill. It USED to mean expert, then it meant less, but to the public, it still means 'good at" a martial art.

not a sport

a martial art, that means self defense, not sport

the bb is a symbol of skill in SELF DEFENSE

thats why sport only school shouldnt be allowed to give out BB's, if they dont teach self defense.

putting a BB on someone with no skill in self defense is IMO, close to fraud



Jaeimseu said:


> People here in this forum, who presumably have some kind of knowledge, don't usually concur on what "black belt" means. It's highly subjective and differs from school to school.
> 
> You seem to be approaching this from the very narrow perspective that black belt is SUPPOSED to mean what you think it means, and that if someone doesn't see it that way then THATS THE PROBLEM. Isn't it possible that the problem could be in the way you are viewing the topic.
> 
> Why should they not use the name Taekwondo? Because it's not the same as YOUR Taekwondo? Americans have football and the rest of the world has football. They aren't the same. But I (as an American) wouldn't suggest that the rest of the world not use the name "football."


----------



## Cyriacus

Kframe said:


> Jaeimseu you are missing Twinfists point. He is talking bout the normal average public joe blow off the street. THEY think Black belt means expert, despite that most here don't feel that way.  So Joe Blow public sees these Olympic guys, wearing black belts and using the name Tae Kwon Do and assume that is how the art functions.  How could they not draw that conclusion, even a casual google search of TKD sparring will bring up Way more videos of WTF style sparring then any other.   Heck I was ready to sign up at a TKD place, to follow my old mans footsteps. I just happen to casually check out more info on TKD online and that's when I discovered all the sparring videos, wtf sparring videos, vastly out ranking any other kind.  I was turned off by it, because I wanted real TKD, art tkd, self defense tkd, not hands at my sides, bouncy crapkwondo. Further reading lead me to the conclusion that as a predominantly stand up striking art, TKD does not teach take down defense in any meaningfull way.
> 
> EtinCyqx yes you may also do grappling arts as well, so your take down defense will be good. You represent the minority of TKD, not the majority.
> 
> Honestly, if I knew that the local KKW TKD place, taught takedown defense, and a real fight stance and method, not wtf stuff, id more then likely sign up. I am not satisfied with my striking ability or skill set, and tkd, would imho be a good place to start, if I could find quality instruction.



Funny story: As a lowly Judoka teenager bouncing around between systems, i never tried TKD because i didnt like what i saw online. That happened years later.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Kframe said:


> Jaeimseu you are missing Twinfists point. He is talking bout the normal average public joe blow off the street. THEY think Black belt means expert, despite that most here don't feel that way.  So Joe Blow public sees these Olympic guys, wearing black belts and using the name Tae Kwon Do and assume that is how the art functions.  How could they not draw that conclusion, even a casual google search of TKD sparring will bring up Way more videos of WTF style sparring then any other.   Heck I was ready to sign up at a TKD place, to follow my old mans footsteps. I just happen to casually check out more info on TKD online and that's when I discovered all the sparring videos, wtf sparring videos, vastly out ranking any other kind.  I was turned off by it, because I wanted real TKD, art tkd, self defense tkd, not hands at my sides, bouncy crapkwondo. Further reading lead me to the conclusion that as a predominantly stand up striking art, TKD does not teach take down defense in any meaningfull way.
> 
> EtinCyqx yes you may also do grappling arts as well, so your take down defense will be good. You represent the minority of TKD, not the majority.
> 
> Honestly, if I knew that the local KKW TKD place, taught takedown defense, and a real fight stance and method, not wtf stuff, id more then likely sign up. I am not satisfied with my striking ability or skill set, and tkd, would imho be a good place to start, if I could find quality instruction.



I understand his point. I don't understand why anyone is so concerned about what the opinion of normal average public joe blow is. Normal average public joe blow isn't a student at a Taekwondo school.  Why worry about the opinions of people who don't know anything about what you're doing? If you own a school and you are losing students to a "sport only" school then I can understand why you might be bitter, but if that's the case, figure out how to market yourself better. 

IMO, the lack of quality instruction has nothing to do with Olympic Taekwondo. There are plenty of great instructors out there, and plenty of bad ones, regardless of style or system. In some areas there may not be a good school. Other areas may have several. 

Whether or not a school's method fits in with your preconception of what Taekwondo is "supposed" to be may have nothing to do with quality of instruction. It may simply be a question of what you want to learn. If you (these are all general yous) have any sense, you will check out the schools to see what's being taught. If you aren't checking out the schools before handing over your money then you will get what you get. 

People talk a lot about the glory days of Taekwondo or baseball or any number of things, mostly without ever really experiencing those things for themselves. An interview with GM Hee Il Cho was posted recently. In it, he talked about the old way, and while he had some good things to say about it, he also mentioned that lots of things from the old days weren't so good and/or wouldn't work today.


----------



## dancingalone

Dirty Dog said:


> Is it really a "sport only club" if they're giving any attention at all to other areas of TKD? To my mind, that would be "sport-oriented", with "sport only" meaning no poomsae, no SD training, no nothing except training to spar using a given ruleset (worded that way to allow the possibility of non-Olympic sport only clubs).



Splitting hairs I think.  KKW guidelines say you need to learn the poomsae to be promoted to BB.  And you need a BB to compete and therefore...


----------



## dancingalone

Jaeimseu said:


> I understand his point. I don't understand why anyone is so concerned about what the opinion of normal average public joe blow is. Normal average public joe blow isn't a student at a Taekwondo school.  Why worry about the opinions of people who don't know anything about what you're doing? If you own a school and you are losing students to a "sport only" school then I can understand why you might be bitter, but if that's the case, figure out how to market yourself better.



I own a TKD dojang.  My competitors aren't the Olympic sport schools.  As far as I know there really aren't any in my area that produce these type of athletes, though a few compete casually in the AAU circuit.  My competition is the Shaolindo school that has lots of kid students.  Or the many TKD/Karate/TSD schools that teach the traditional arts with varying degrees of quality and rigor.



Jaeimseu said:


> IMO, the lack of quality instruction has nothing to do with Olympic Taekwondo. There are plenty of great instructors out there, and plenty of bad ones, regardless of style or system. In some areas there may not be a good school. Other areas may have several.



Absolutely.  Plenty of flotsam out there that masks under the guise of traditional martial arts.  This from someone who considers himself a traditionalist first and foremost.



Jaeimseu said:


> People talk a lot about the glory days of Taekwondo or baseball or any number of things, mostly without ever really experiencing those things for themselves. An interview with GM Hee Il Cho was posted recently. In it, he talked about the old way, and while he had some good things to say about it, he also mentioned that lots of things from the old days weren't so good and/or wouldn't work today.



I don't know that TKD as a whole has advanced considerably since the sixties or seventies, at least in the US.  Sure, the elite competitors whether in the Olympic arena or elsewhere know a lot more about modern technique, bio-mechanics,  and staying fit and healthy, but I think the masses have largely stayed at the same level of understanding from decades ago.  Only now there is a LOT more people, mostly kids, training and the rigor/toughness of training naturally has lessened as a consequence.


----------



## Gnarlie

Twin Fist said:


> it has been stated on this very board, by many, including some very high ranked folks, that if you are not doing WTF KKW, you are not doing TKD.  so you can bet that that message gets passed to the potential customer. thecustomer thinks thats true, and they sgn up little johnny, thinking little johnny will learn some self defense.
> 
> but he doesnt, not in the sport focused schools.
> 
> THATS THE PROBLEM
> 
> plus they wear BB's, so the public sees that, thinks it means what it is SUPPOSED to mean
> 
> THATS THE PROBLEM
> 
> I would be a full supporter of the WTF style of sparring, if, in thier tourny's they didnt call it TKD and didnt wear BB's



TF, I had to sleep on this to give you a considered response. I don't personally hold with the KKW way being the only way, just like I don't hold with TKD being the only way. I think TKD is TKD, and if one keeps an open mind, there's a lot to be gained from looking at how other associations and groups do things. There's even more to be gained from cross training.

I can't decide whether you are worried about little Johnny or his parents...but both parties would certainly be aware that they were learning a sport in a sport focused school.  In my experience, the positive relationship between instructors allows those more interested in sport to be passed to more sport focused schools and those more interested in the full syllabus to be passed to an appropriate school also. Horses for courses, and nobody is hiding anything from the 'customer' or anyone else.

Yes, those people competing internationally must wear a 1st Dan BB minimum. It means that they have reached a certain level of skill in the sport. If holding a black belt means anything about self defence, how do you explain all those six sigma black belt quality managers wandering around in big corporations? They are black belts because they are good at what they do. The public don't expect them to be experts in self-defence, because the public is not stupid. Just because it's different to what you do, does that make that black belt invalid? And as we both know, the public perception of what a martial arts black belt means is often so far out of whack with reality that what the public thinks it means is largely irrelevant - it only means anything inside of the awarding association.

I think it's fair that it's called Taekwondo, as it is one aspect of that art. I also think it's fair that competitors wear a belt that signifies their level of competence in that aspect of the art. I think there's a broader issue with the public view of what BB means, but that's across all arts, not just TKD.

So I have some questions for you again: 

1) How does the public's perception of those black belts sparring at the Olympics under the Taekwondo banner affect you directly? 

2) If it doesn't affect you and what you do, are you more worried about other people, and if so, why and how?

3) If it does affect you and what you do, is it not as simple as explaining to people that what you do is quite different to what they do in the Olympics?

I'm intrigued by your viewpoint as I don't meet many people who feel so strongly about this, so I appreciate you taking the time to discuss it sensibly with me and look forward to your response. :asian:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> no, several people, myself included have said, in very clear terms HOW we think it has effected the reputation of TKD as a whole.
> 
> You just dont agree, so you dont see it as valid.


Incorrect.  A lot of what has been said I agree with and in many cases, consider valid:


Taekwondo in the Olympics does not resemble any of what people practice outside of WTF competition, including KKW pumsae.
Taekwondo in the Olympics does not resemble any real fight that I have seen and is not what I would call, "realistic self defense."
Taekwondo in the Olympics has relegated hand techniques to straight body punches only and emphasizes high kicking, which makes it less interesting/appealing to some and which is the main cause of the previous two points.
Taekwondo in the Olympics allows for people to score while falling down (something that I have stated that I strongly dislike).
The use of electric gear is gimmicky and unnecessary.


However, none of those things that have been connected with taewondo in the Olympics "ruining" the reputation of the art.  Just stating those things, true though they may be, does not substantiate the art's repuatation being ruined.  Reputation is about perception, not features.  

And the question about reputation is unqualified; it asks, "Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?"  It doesn't ask if it has ruined it with specific groups of people (grapplers, strikers, martial artists in general, Olympic viewers, etc.).  In terms of the big picture, taekwondo's reputation has not been ruined.  Holding a taekwondo black belt is still respected by the majority of people.

I have offered the position that the reputation of the martial arts have been negatively impacted by lousy schools, McDojos, and heavy commercialization, and that taekwondo has been the hardest.  

This affects the art's reputation in the following ways:


Blackbelt students who lack basic proficiency in the art, so much so that non practitioners can see it obviously.
The_ perception _that young children who cannot cross the parking lot by themselves are being promoted to adult ranks.
Through various extra cost clubs and overinflated equipment costs, the art is seen as a school owner's business venture more than as a place to learn martial arts.
Through service contracts and billing companies, people are turned off because they see the school as trying to trap them into staying when they no longer can.
Through after school programs and the heavy appeal to children, schools seem to be more about childcare, anti-bullying, and fun & fitness than about the martil art itself.

Those things are about perception.  None of that has "ruined" taekwondo's reputation as a whole (yet), but it certainly has had a negative impact and opened the art to a lot of criticism.



Twin Fist said:


> your opinion doesnt invalidate thiers, it just means you disagree.


Of course not.  I never said that it did.



Twin Fist said:


> You used to be much more open minded and much less KKW fanboy-ish. What happened?


Incorrect on both counts.

I am more open minded now; I used to be closed minded to a lot of things, including the value of WTF sport or the value of having the art in the Olympics.  The fact that I don't spew negativity about the Kukkiwon or the WTF, or invest my energy in hatred for the sport as you do does not make me closed minded.  

I am open to, and ancknowledge the value of, what other taekwondo organizations offer and what other KMA offer.  The fact that I hold a positive view of the organization that issued my dan certificate does not make me closed minded at all. 

As for being a fanboy, not agreeing with your particular (and negative) assessment does not make me a fanboy.  I have voiced what I see as legitimate criticisms of WTF sport TKD both in this post and in previous posts and have said that it is not my cup of tea.  So if you are going to name call, at least have the decency to do so with proper word usage.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

I've stayed out of this thread, but it has been an interesting one.  Here is my observation/experience.  My KJN was on the Masters delegation committee for the '88 Olympics, and was part of the '92 Olympics as well.  He was Vice President of the USTU.  He was involved politically to spread TKD.  

We never practiced the KKW curriculum.

We did compete, if we wanted to, at USTU functions back in the day.  If we wanted to compete in poomse, we had to go learn the appropriate form for the rank, but that's about it.  

My KJN became apprehensive at the direction this push for the Olympics was taking TKD.  Limiting the totality of the art.  Particularly the mental side.  Becoming a sport, meant leaving behind the focus of certain aspects of the art.  He also didn't like the looks of the sparring going on, he called it "chicken fighting."  I'm not entirely sure of what he meant by that statement, but I think it was a reference to cock fighting, in that there was little blocking, lots of flailing kicks.  Keep in mind this was the '80's- mid '90's.  

I competed on the junior national circuit in the mid-late 90's.  I will admit the sparring strategy was certainly different.  To me it was more of a game than it was sparring.  Using the rules, bending the rules, to give you the advantage.  Hugging, groin kicking, "tap" kicks that would never actually score in a traditional tournament or do damage to someone.  It wasn't my cup of tea.  

Watching the evolution of Olympic TKD, I think it has grown up a great deal since then, but it's still not my cup of tea.  I like being a dinosaur when it comes to TKD.  I like the totality of traditional TKD.  Although, I wish I could do those 720 kicks   It is a mighty display of athleticism!

My KJN was in the ROK army, taught TKD to both U.S. and ROK soldiers, as well as the Korean national police academy.  I think it might be this military background that kept the focus of our association more holistic.  

Full circle back to the OP, no I don't think that the Olympics has been a detriment to TKD.  I think that, just like Karate, Taekwondo is a fragmented art, which is not a bad thing.  There are many "styles" that offer a great many things.  You've got the ISKA and NASKA in Karate and the IWUF in Wushu, which, IMO are the equivalent to Olympic TKD.  To each their own.. .  If there was no demand for it, it would not exist.


----------



## Twin Fist

So I have some questions for you again: 

*1) How does the public's perception of those black belts sparring at the Olympics under the Taekwondo banner affect you directly?* 
because when i say i am a TKD blackbelt, and they have seen the olympic stuff, they equate me with that. Thats not a positive in my mind. I dont want to be associated with bouncy people that cant throw a kick without falling over.  They wear a Black Belt, to the public that means something, so when the see people that cant stand up when fighting, it makes EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON with a TKD black belt on look like THEM, perception IS reality

Also, it is so different that it needs its own name.
*
2) If it doesn't affect you and what you do, are you more worried about other people, and if so, why and how?
*it DOES effect me, look at it this way, if your name is joe smith, and there is a story in the paper that a Joe Smith molested little kids, that could easily effect you. No One wants to be linked to things they feel are bad, and using the name TKD for the korean olympic foot boxing links it to the ART of the TKD

*3) If it does affect you and what you do, is it not as simple as explaining to people that what you do is quite different to what they do in the Olympics?*
I may not get a chance, as soon as a potential customer comes in, and hear's TKD, i could lose them because they think the olympic stuff is all there is. I may not get time to explain the difference. 

plus, again, cheese makes everyone look cheesy by association.

to use the ata for an example, i could meet someone and say "hey, i am a TKD BB" and they answer "so's my 4 year old"


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> In all fairness, if you go back and read the whole thread there has been very little "wtf sucks" comments.


No, there hasn't been.  Which is nice. 



ralphmcpherson said:


> I am probably one of the more vocal here when it comes to this subject, but I will always give credit to the wtf fighters, their skill, fitness, speed etc. I am definetely no fan of wtf sparring, far from it, but you will not see me using deragatory terms, and the same can be said for 99.9% of posters.


It isn't my favorite format either, though in regards to the question asked by the OP, I don't feel that WTF sparring in the Olympics has been the ruination of the art's reputation.


----------



## Twin Fist

i do not believe the timing is a coincidence.

the rise of olympic style sparring and the ruination of TKD's reputation

and mark my words, today, in martial arts circles OUTSIDE tkd, the reputation of tkd is in tatters


----------



## Dirty Dog

dancingalone said:


> Splitting hairs I think.  KKW guidelines say you need to learn the poomsae to be promoted to BB.  And you need a BB to compete and therefore...



Not really, since it's pretty widely known that the KKW endorses giving Dan rank to people who do not know the KKW curriculum. So a pure sport school is entirely possible. All they need is someone to sign off on the certificates. That person doesn't even need to know the KKW curriculum themselves.
So I don't think it's splitting hairs at all. If they're doing anything with the rest of TKD, then they're not really sport only. They're sport oriented or sport focused, but not sport only.


----------



## dancingalone

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really, since it's pretty widely known that the KKW endorses giving Dan rank to people who do not know the KKW curriculum. So a pure sport school is entirely possible. All they need is someone to sign off on the certificates. That person doesn't even need to know the KKW curriculum themselves.
> So I don't think it's splitting hairs at all. If they're doing anything with the rest of TKD, then they're not really sport only. They're sport oriented or sport focused, but not sport only.



I understand what you are saying, but I think you're making too fine a distinction that would render any discussion moot if we were to accept your definition.  It's like my car dealership.  They sell Infinitis there, but they get in an odd car of another make every now and then due to trade ins and they might try to sell it quickly on the lot if they can.  So, since they sold a couple of BMWs this month, are they still an Infiniti dealership or are they now just a 'dealership' sans label?  IMO, they are Infiniti.

You are what you are.  If you train primarily for Olympics rules tournaments, you would be a sport school, even if you occasionally do something else for fun, for variety, for requirements, for whatever else.

No shame should be attached to the label by the way.


----------



## Gnarlie

Twin Fist said:


> So I have some questions for you again:
> 
> *1) How does the public's perception of those black belts sparring at the Olympics under the Taekwondo banner affect you directly?*
> because when i say i am a TKD blackbelt, and they have seen the olympic stuff, they equate me with that. Thats not a positive in my mind. I dont want to be associated with bouncy people that cant throw a kick without falling over.  They wear a Black Belt, to the public that means something, so when the see people that cant stand up when fighting, it makes EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON with a TKD black belt on look like THEM, perception IS reality
> 
> Also, it is so different that it needs its own name.
> *
> 2) If it doesn't affect you and what you do, are you more worried about other people, and if so, why and how?
> *it DOES effect me, look at it this way, if your name is joe smith, and there is a story in the paper that a Joe Smith molested little kids, that could easily effect you. No One wants to be linked to things they feel are bad, and using the name TKD for the korean olympic foot boxing links it to the ART of the TKD
> 
> *3) If it does affect you and what you do, is it not as simple as explaining to people that what you do is quite different to what they do in the Olympics?*
> I may not get a chance, as soon as a potential customer comes in, and hear's TKD, i could lose them because they think the olympic stuff is all there is. I may not get time to explain the difference.
> 
> plus, again, cheese makes everyone look cheesy by association.
> 
> to use the ata for an example, i could meet someone and say "hey, i am a TKD BB" and they answer "so's my 4 year old"



1) It does have it's own name - WTF Taekwondo. Just like ATA Taekwondo has it's own name. You can differentiate what you do from both of those if you so wish by making it clear that what you do is XYZ Taekwondo. 

In my experience WTF TKDers are capable of throwing a kick without falling down - the falling only happens due to incidental contact or more rarely deliberate unsportsmanlike behaviour. I'm in KKW TKD and when people walk in the door talking about the Olympics in a negative way, then it's easy enough to explain that that is only one aspect of the art, and the person should stay and watch to see what they think about it.  People generally agree AND are surprised by what they see. It should be easy enough for someone outside of the association to explain that their association is separate and that's not what they do.

2) It is linked to the art of TKD, just not in the most immediately obvious ways. It fits with the philosophy. And it's easy enough for for Joe Smith to explain that no, that was a different Joe Smith, in fact it takes only 2 words: no relation. So you can happily explain to people that there is no relation between what you do and what people see on TV during the Olympics.

3) If someone is going to walk out the door due to an opinion they have formed only based on what they have seen on TV, without asking any further questions, and without giving you a fair shout to explain further, what kind of student would they have made anyway.  Besides, for every one you might lose who wanted self defence, there's another who will be attracted to the art because of what they have seen on TV. Swings and roundabouts.

Cheese doesn't make everyone cheesy by association. You'll notice that I've been quite carefully avoiding expressing my views on WTF sparring up until this point. I have to admit that since more recent rule changes have gone in, I find it's not ideal. But that doesn't mean that just because someone else finds WTF sparring cheesy, that what I do as a KKW student and instructor is cheesy by association. Again with your ATA example, it's easy enough to explain that you are not part of an organisation that awards BB status at such a young age.

I think you might be worrying too much about what other people think of you, and overestimating how difficult it is to change someone's mind. If you find Olympic TKD so embarrassing, isn't there an opportunity there for you to respond with something like, 'oh no no no, we don't practice that way, what we do is way more awesome, you should come and try it and I'll show you the real deal'?  _If that is what you believe... 
_
Thanks for the detailed response, I think I can understand where you're coming from but I'm not sure that I agree that we are all affected in such a negative way.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Twin Fist said:


> So I have some questions for you again:
> 
> *1) How does the public's perception of those black belts sparring at the Olympics under the Taekwondo banner affect you directly?*
> because when i say i am a TKD blackbelt, and they have seen the olympic stuff, they equate me with that. Thats not a positive in my mind. I dont want to be associated with bouncy people that cant throw a kick without falling over.  They wear a Black Belt, to the public that means something, so when the see people that cant stand up when fighting, it makes EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON with a TKD black belt on look like THEM, perception IS reality
> 
> Also, it is so different that it needs its own name.



How often do you tell people you are a black belt? Do you go outside wearing it hoping to impress the general public? The general public's perception isn't even based in reality. Honestly, I get that you feel passionately about it, but IMO you should relax and get some thicker skin. 

The people where you live (Texas, right? My US home is Austin) have a perception, but people in other places have a different perception. I'm in Korea, and the general public here has a different perception of TKD black belt than the one you describe. That doesn't make them right or wrong. Perception is perception, and I feel like it doesn't particularly matter. 

I know some people over here who associate all Texans with George Bush and think Texans are stupid. That's their perception. But I don't have time to worry about perception grounded in ignorance. I'll just keep going what I do and leave them to think what they want.


----------



## seasoned

Just a quick observation. The way we represent ourselves while interacting with others, is what Joe Q public will first notice. Name calling really has no place in a mature conversation. IMHO.............


----------



## chrispillertkd

Gnarlie said:


> 1) It does have it's own name - WTF Taekwondo. Just like ATA Taekwondo has it's own name. You can differentiate what you do from both of those if you so wish by making it clear that what you do is XYZ Taekwondo.



 Then why is it every time someone around here says "WTF Taekwondo" they get corrected that the WTF is a sports organization not a martial arts style? It's Kukkiwon Taekwondo they always say, right? At least that's what's happened before. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd

SahBumNimRush said:


> My KJN became apprehensive at the direction this push for the Olympics was taking TKD. Limiting the totality of the art. Particularly the mental side. Becoming a sport, meant leaving behind the focus of certain aspects of the art. He also didn't like the looks of the sparring going on, *he called it "chicken fighting."* I'm not entirely sure of what he meant by that statement, but I think it was a reference to cock fighting, in that there was little blocking, lots of flailing kicks. Keep in mind this was the '80's- mid '90's.



 That's a very interesting term he used to describe WTF sparring, and he's not the only very well known Taekwon-Do pioneer to use it, either. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> Then why is it every time someone around here says "WTF Taekwondo" they get corrected that the WTF is a sports organization not a martial arts style? It's Kukkiwon Taekwondo they always say, right? At least that's what's happened before.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


What is seen in the Olympics is WTF sport taekwondo.  The WTF makes and interprets the rules.  They regulate the sport internationally.

What is generally corrected is "WTF style," as there is no comprehensive WTF system.  There is a comprehensive Kukkiwon system; Kukki taekwondo, whcih is comparable to Chang Hon taekwondo.  A Kukki taekwondoist _can_ compete in WTF tournaments under WTF rules, which limit the attacks and target areas in such a way as to emphasize high kicking.  Most Kukki taekwondo students do not compete at all, however, and some that do compete in open tournaments under different rule sents.

Likewise, there are no WTF schools because to my knowledge, the WTF does not certify schools.  The Kukkiwon does.  The same goes for dan certification; the Kukkiwon certifies dans, establishes curriculum and regulates the art of Kukki taekwondo.

It gets rather murky when you look at how interconnected the two organizations are.  At one point they were housed in the same building and if memory serves, at one point had the same president.  The WTF recognizes only KKW dan certificates.

Personally, I'd like to see the WTF change the way they bracket their competitors so as to get away from any reference to dan grades (or any grades) and look strictly at competition record.  The national governing bodies, such as USAT, should do the same, with members paying a USAT membership fee and having a rating based on their competitive record with no reference to their dan grade, and with anyone from any striking art background able to join and compete.  

Then you would have USAT TKD clubs that would be like boxing gyms or fencing clubs, and your talent pool would be much larger.  And it would eliminate the whole WTF vs. KKW school confusion.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> for 60 years now, the PUBLIC has been told that martial arts are about self defense. Thats why people by and large start taking martial art classes.
> 
> self defense


See, we do agree on something.  Though I would phrase it differently.  To the public at large, a black belt is a proficient fighter in whatever style they hold the belt.



Twin Fist said:


> that entire time, the public has been told that a black belt means a certain level of skill. It USED to mean expert, then it meant less, but to the public, it still means 'good at" a martial art.



Originally, it meant advanced student.  I'd say that the 'expert' perception came about in the seventies.  Prior to that, the general public had no perception of what a black belt was and everything with a belt was "judo."



Twin Fist said:


> not a sport
> 
> a martial art, that means self defense, not sport
> 
> the bb is a symbol of skill in SELF DEFENSE


Given that for the entire twentieth century, the general public perceived boxing, which is a sport, as being synonomous with skill in self defense, I'm not sure I can agree with you on the art/sport, but I do agree with you in terms of public perception of a blackbelt's ability to fight in general (not just in tourney).



Twin Fist said:


> thats why sport only school shouldnt be allowed to give out BB's, if they dont teach self defense.
> 
> putting a BB on someone with no skill in self defense is IMO, close to fraud


Everytime someone posts a 'what is self defense to you?' thread, it is very clear that there is hardly consensus on what constitutes "self defense."  The only thing that we all seem to agree on is that a WTF sparring-only curriculum does not constitute a comprehensive self defense curriculum.

I am going to disagree with you on this one slightly; putting a BB on someone without proficiency in the basics of the art (in the case of KKW TKD, that would be Taegeuk pumsae 1 - 8 and the techniques contained therein, and *at least *WTF sparring, being able to demonstrate effective offense and defense within that format) is, IMO a bad idea.


----------



## Gnarlie

chrispillertkd said:


> Then why is it every time someone around here says "WTF Taekwondo" they get corrected that the WTF is a sports organization not a martial arts style? It's Kukkiwon Taekwondo they always say, right? At least that's what's happened before.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Because it is. The WTF org regulates competition rules, effectively making the competition an extremely heavily limited sub-form of KKW TKD. A game for us to play to work on timing, footwork and distancing.  But those rules exclude a whole lot that those outside of KKW affiliated schools can't really see.

Gnarlie


----------



## chrispillertkd

Daniel you sem to be making a distinction without a difference. "WTF sport style taekwondo" is KKW Taekwondo. The WTF is a sports organization only interested in a rules set, not in promulgating its own style of martial art. You might have something if you said WTF-style sparring, but definitely not "WTF sport taekwondo" as that indicates a style of martial art. A few pages ago ATC pointed out yet again that there is not such thing as "WTF Taekwondo" (which you can read here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-reputation-of-the-art?p=1560019#post1560019) yet now you're telling people there is.

You guys can't have it both ways.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd

Gnarlie said:


> Because it is. The WTF org regulates competition rules, effectively making the competition an extremely heavily limited sub-form of KKW TKD. A game for us to play to work on timing, footwork and distancing. But those rules exclude a whole lot that those outside of KKW affiliated schools can't really see.
> 
> Gnarlie



Then you should not call it "WTF Taekwondo," which is what you did. Call it Kukkiwon Taekwondo or Kukki Taekwondo and refer to WTF competition sparring as WTF competition sparring, or WTF sparring, or something else. But as I just pointed out to Daniel, if you guys call it "WTF Taekwondo" then other people are going to, too.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> Daniel you sem to be making a distinction without a difference. "WTF sport style taekwondo" is KKW Taekwondo. The WTF is a sports organization only interested in a rules set, not in promulgating its own style of martial art. You might have something if you said WTF-style sparring, but definitely not "WTF sport taekwondo" as that indicates a style of martial art. A few pages ago ATC pointed out yet again that there is not such thing as "WTF Taekwondo" (which you can read here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-reputation-of-the-art?p=1560019#post1560019) yet now you're telling people there is.
> 
> You guys can't have it both ways.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Nobody is asking to.  I am explaining it to you as it is.

The WTF is an organization distinct from the Kukkiwon.  They call the sport that they regulate, "taekwondo."  They establish rules and standards for that sport.  They are recognized by the IOC as the governing body for the sport, "Taekwondo."  They have satelite organizations in different nations that serve as IOC recognized national governing bodies for the sport of taekwondo.   Each member nation has a national tournament circuit and the WTF has competition at an international level.  They do not establish curriculum or promotion standards and do not certify students.

The Kukkiwon is an organization distinct from the WTF.  They call the martial art that they promulgate, "Taekwondo."  They establish curriculum, promotion standards, and certify students.  They do not have a tournament circuit.  They do not regulate the sport.  Sparring according to WTF rules_ is _a part of the Kukkiwon curriculum.  But there are other types of sparring as well.  The section in the textbook on WTF sparring is very small as compared to the rest of the curriculum.

So while the Kukkiwon supports the WTF, and while there is some small overlap between them, Kukki taekwondo is not WTF sport taekwondo.  They are, however associated.  Because WTF sparring is part of KKW curriculum the two cannot really be disassociated. 

 However, distinguishing between the two is not hard unless you simply *choose* not to do so or have so little familiarity with the subject that you *cannot* do so (which is what many say is the case with the general public).

I've already stated my opinion on this in a previous post.  I feel that disassociating the two would actually strengthen both.  But it isn't my call to make and my personal interest in the subject is mostly academic, as I do not compete in taekwondo on any level, do not teach WTF sparring, and have no input whatsoever as to the direction of either organization.


----------



## Dirty Dog

dancingalone said:


> I understand what you are saying, but I think you're making too fine a distinction that would render any discussion moot if we were to accept your definition.  It's like my car dealership.  They sell Infinitis there, but they get in an odd car of another make every now and then due to trade ins and they might try to sell it quickly on the lot if they can.  So, since they sold a couple of BMWs this month, are they still an Infiniti dealership or are they now just a 'dealership' sans label?  IMO, they are Infiniti.
> 
> You are what you are.  If you train primarily for Olympics rules tournaments, you would be a sport school, even if you occasionally do something else for fun, for variety, for requirements, for whatever else.
> 
> No shame should be attached to the label by the way.



I think you're making too broad a distinction. 

It's off topic for this thread though, so I'll let it drop.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Daniel, I don't think you've really read my posts (I know the distinction that should be made between the KKW and WTF and have for over 20 years; my old KKW instructor n college explained it to the class on day one), but such is life. Suffice it to say people will continue to call whatever it is you do WTF Taekwondo because you guys do. But then soneone comes along and tells them how they're wrong and how it's really KKW Taekwondo. And despite your extended explanation of the difference between the WTF and the KKW you're the one who said it was WTF Taekwondo in the first place (after ATC corrected someone else). Do you see the problem with that?

If you want other people to use what you view as the correct nomenclature you guys should all get on the same page first yourselves.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> Daniel, I don't think you've really read my posts (I know the distinction that should be made between the KKW and WTF and have for over 20 years; my old KKW instructor n college explained it to the class on day one), but such is life. Suffice it to say people will continue to call whatever it is you do WTF Taekwondo because you guys do. But then soneone comes along and tells them how they're wrong and how it's really KKW Taekwondo. And despite your extended explanation of the difference between the WTF and the KKW you're the one who said it was WTF Taekwondo in the first place (after ATC corrected someone else). Do you see the problem with that?
> 
> If you want other people to use what you view as the correct nomenclature you guys should all get on the same page first yourselves.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


I read your posts.  Presumably you read mine and we each know where the other is coming from.


----------



## Gnarlie

chrispillertkd said:


> Daniel, I don't think you've really read my posts (I know the distinction that should be made between the KKW and WTF and have for over 20 years; my old KKW instructor n college explained it to the class on day one), but such is life. Suffice it to say people will continue to call whatever it is you do WTF Taekwondo because you guys do. But then soneone comes along and tells them how they're wrong and how it's really KKW Taekwondo. And despite your extended explanation of the difference between the WTF and the KKW you're the one who said it was WTF Taekwondo in the first place (after ATC corrected someone else). Do you see the problem with that?
> 
> If you want other people to use what you view as the correct nomenclature you guys should all get on the same page first yourselves.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



I don't really care what any of it is called. I do think it important that people understand that Taekwondo of whatever breed is more than a sport, with a rich, diverse and deep technical and philosophical foundation available to those who are willing to take roads less travelled.

Gnarlie


----------



## chrispillertkd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I read your posts. Presumably you read mine and we each know where the other is coming from.




Uh, yes, I did. My point is you're saying one thing and doing another.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Kframe

Cyriacus said:


> Funny story: As a lowly Judoka teenager bouncing around between systems, i never tried TKD because i didnt like what i saw online. That happened years later.



Cyriacus im not sure what you attempting to say here, but ill try a stab at it. Growing up, my family was poor, so no I didn't get a opportunity to practice any  martial art till I was grown and settled down. With kids popping up quickly after that, I had to put off my Martial arts dream till just recently.(about 2 years ago)

I was still put off by what I saw online. It did not(still dosent) match, to the things my father taught me and told me about tkd.  The tkd he showed me was effective against the multiple times he had to fight off more then one assailent.(muggings) No, what he showed me, was a fantastic self defense art, what I found online was not. He always told me, that when I do start martial arts, to avoid sport at all costs. I heed that warning.. Now I know I started in boxing, only because, it was the only place I could find that was affordable(at the time) and taught by a amazing instructor.


----------



## Cyriacus

Kframe said:


> Cyriacus im not sure what you attempting to say here, but ill try a stab at it. Growing up, my family was poor, so no I didn't get a opportunity to practice any  martial art till I was grown and settled down. With kids popping up quickly after that, I had to put off my Martial arts dream till just recently.(about 2 years ago)
> 
> I was still put off by what I saw online. It did not(still dosent) match, to the things my father taught me and told me about tkd.  The tkd he showed me was effective against the multiple times he had to fight off more then one assailent.(muggings) No, what he showed me, was a fantastic self defense art, what I found online was not. He always told me, that when I do start martial arts, to avoid sport at all costs. I heed that warning.. Now I know I started in boxing, only because, it was the only place I could find that was affordable(at the time) and taught by a amazing instructor.



I was verifying that when you know nothing about something, and all of your information comes from the most readily available information, and you dont know any better, you believe it. See, you had a comparison. I had the information presented to me _and nothing else._


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kframe said:


> Cyriacus im not sure what you attempting to say here, but ill try a stab at it. Growing up, my family was poor, so no I didn't get a opportunity to practice any  martial art till I was grown and settled down. With kids popping up quickly after that, I had to put off my Martial arts dream till just recently.(about 2 years ago)
> 
> I was still put off by what I saw online. It did not(still dosent) match, to the things my father taught me and told me about tkd.  The tkd he showed me was effective against the multiple times he had to fight off more then one assailent.(muggings) No, what he showed me, was a fantastic self defense art, what I found online was not. He always told me, that when I do start martial arts, to avoid sport at all costs. *I heed that warning*.. Now I know I started in boxing, only because, it was the only place I could find that was affordable(at the time) and taught by a amazing instructor.


I like boxing and have a healthy respect for it, so don't take this the wrong way, but you apparently *don't *heed that warning; boxing is most definitely a sport, arguably one with as many disconnects from self defense as the taekwondo you saw online.

In all of your posts, you never mention actually visiting local TKD schools (If you have and I missed it, then my apologies).  Maybe you did; if so, I'd be curious to what you saw.  If not, why not?  Your dad had real world experience that you were very impressed with.  You saw something different online.  Why not take the time to discover for yourself?


----------



## Gorilla

Olympic TKD has been a boom for TKD....a few Internet Curmudgeons seem to have vendetta against it but TKD has positive reputation with the general public and open minded Martial Artists....

Some may not like the rule set I understand that....but it is a sport that is here to stay and growing in popularity...which I am sure will cause the aforementioned Curmudgeons to attack with even more vitriol!


----------



## Master Dan

for one to speak only from watching an Olympic fight tojudge the whole art of tkd is uneducated the traditional side of the art hasnot change nor the benefits from being part of it. what has happened is theenormous movement away from actual fighting instead of looking to win by onepoint. total elimination of quality and fair judging replaced by computers anda litigious and whiny competitor base with totally corrupt NGB's that part hasled many to concentrate on what the 90% of the base has wanted and needs allalong.


----------



## Twin Fist

Gorilla said:


> Olympic TKD has been a boom for olympic tkd and a curse the rest of TKD



fixed that for you



Gorilla said:


> ....a few Internet Curmudgeons seem to have vendetta against it but TKD has positive reputation with the general public and open minded Martial Artists....



you wish that were true, you may have convinced yourself that is true, but it aint, and all you head in the sand denial wont make it true


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> TKD has positive reputation with the general public and open minded Martial Artists....


This has been my experience.


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel,
I posted something about TKD on my facebook the other day, and someone posted something very telling. He referred to it as "take your dough" ......just last week, i saw this same phrase on kenpotalk

thats TWICE in less than 2 weeks, from people totally unrelated to each other

the bad rep IS out there.


----------



## Sukerkin

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This has been my experience.



Sadly, it seems, I only know 'closed minded' martial artists, Dan .  

TKD has it's own circles that it moves in I think where those that practise it are quite happy with it.  Nothing wrong with that; people doing what they enjoy is a good thing.  The pricing is another matter but that's up to the people that do it in the end.  If they think it is worth it then they will pay for it.

The circles I move in are a bit more 'orthodox' I suppose is a good word for it.  I train in a traditional Japanese Sword Art and I share a dojo with a school of Katori extraction.

Compare:

[video=youtube_share;cQB5Lc1C_a8]http://youtu.be/cQB5Lc1C_a8[/video]

and

[video=youtube_share;KXDdIMZfATU]http://youtu.be/KXDdIMZfATU[/video]

With

[video=youtube_share;eLz-sl1ZfBs]http://youtu.be/eLz-sl1ZfBs[/video]

You can see why it might be that I tend to think of TKD as a bit Johnny-come-lately and rather too 'commercial' for my tastes .


----------



## Gnarlie

Daniel, the MT what's new page has quoted you out of context 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/59dc0yo6s7m3ccp/Screenshot_2013-03-15-17-37-58-1.png

Gnarlie


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> Daniel,
> I posted something about TKD on my facebook the other day, and someone posted something very telling. He referred to it as "take your dough" ......just last week, i saw this same phrase on kenpotalk
> 
> thats TWICE in less than 2 weeks, from people totally unrelated to each other
> 
> the bad rep IS out there.


I didn't say it isn't out there.  But certainly is not the overwhelming, ever present attitude that you imply that it is.  So you saw two negative things about taekwondo in less than two weeks.  How many positive things did you see during that same time?  Did other people comment positively on your Facebook about your post?  

In any case, your experience is not my experience.  And I live in a very diverse, heavily populated area with a lot of MA schools and a lot of MA-ists.  Taekwondo is not a laughing stock here.  Quite the opposite.  I don't know if you're familiar with Mark Malakoff, but his dojang http://www.kangsblackbeltacademy.com/SocialSite/home is in the same building where I teach kendo and fencing.  He and I speak fairly regularly.  He said that his school teaches Jhoon Rhee forms and American taekwondo, which I believe is what you practice.  The school is huge, is constantly jumping, has a nice pro shop, and not a good, but a *great* reputation in town.  When we talk TKD, he _*never*_ trashes or disrespects Kukki taekwondo, the WTF, or taekwondo in the Olympics.  He had probably five KKW schools within a ten mile radius of his own.  *Big* schools.  Two are owned by an eighth dan KJN and his son, one is owned by a 6th dan Korean national champion who owns a second school in another county, one is run by Marco Sies, a seven time kickboxing champ who trained with Bill Wallace if memory serves, and another is an old school that has a very good reputation (I don't know the KJN).  Master Malakoff's school is as big or bigger than any of them and probably tops them in enrollment.  

No.  Olympic taekwondo is not ruining his repuation, costing him customers, or making him feel bad on facebook.  Those five KKW schools aren't hurting either, and neither are other non TKD/TSD schools in the same area (there are several, including Kim's Traditional Studio on Redland Road in Rockville, five - seven miles from where I live).

If this guy can run that huge TKD school teaching what you say you practice and be not just successful, but hugely successful, and if those five KKW schools can be successful in this area year after year with so many other non TKD alternatives (in the same ten mile radius, there are two big wushu academies, Kicks Karate, Kim's Traditional Studio, a Machado BJJ school, a boxing gym, two HKD schools one Aikido school, Tomkins Karate in at least three rec. departments, one huge ninjutsu & karate school, one Han Mu Sool school, and several indy schools that just say 'karate' on the door), then clearly Olympic taekwondo isn't tainting the reputation of TKD here in the slightest.  

And if you take it from a ten mile radius to a twenty mile radius, there are more KKW schools that do very well.  All of these schools have been here for some time with the exception of Marco Sies, which opened up about two years ago in the middle of the recession.  The rest have continued to prosper through a bad economy and other, more traditional businesses hitting the skids and in some cases, closing up.

I don't know what your enrollment problems are, and I don't even know that you actually have any.  Last I heard, you weren't currently teaching due to being studying to enter the medical field (nursing if I recall).  But if you are running a school, focus on running a good school and doing the best for your students instead of worrying about what schools that teach a program different from yours are doing.  Better yet, if those schools are successful, take a look at what they're doing.  Those owners would probably be successful no matter what art they taught, as the art isn't the formula for their success.  If you feel that what they do is cheesy, then don't do it, but don't fault them for being successful and don't take your frustrations out by endlessly bashing others' arts.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gnarlie said:


> Daniel, the MT what's new page has quoted you out of context
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/59dc0yo6s7m3ccp/Screenshot_2013-03-15-17-37-58-1.png
> 
> Gnarlie


That's hillarious.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

This is really off topic, but how much does the typical TKD school charge?  Personally, I don't have a multi-tiered scale (i.e. no add on charges for "black belt" or "master" clubs and such).  I charge a flat $50/month fee, which I feel is border line too cheap (I'm contemplating on raising the monthly dues in the future).  This allows the students to attend 2 classes per week.  

Keep in mind that I don't own my own space, I teach out of fitness center, so my overhead is extremely low.  AND, this isn't my day job.  I do it because I see value in it, and I love it!


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## Twin Fist

popular doesnt equal quality Daniel, everyone knew the twilight book were crap, but they still sold a crap ton of copies...

your denial of reality is just that, denial

but you got your opinions, and i have mine


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## Twin Fist

for that sort of set up, depending on the average income level  in the area, thats about the right price i would say



SahBumNimRush said:


> This is really off topic, but how much does the typical TKD school charge?  Personally, I don't have a multi-tiered scale (i.e. no add on charges for "black belt" or "master" clubs and such).  I charge a flat $50/month fee, which I feel is border line too cheap (I'm contemplating on raising the monthly dues in the future).  This allows the students to attend 2 classes per week.
> 
> Keep in mind that I don't own my own space, I teach out of fitness center, so my overhead is extremely low.  AND, this isn't my day job.  I do it because I see value in it, and I love it!


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## Sukerkin

That's refreshing to hear, Dr. Rush :sensei rei:.  

An awful lot of TKD schools seem to be run purely as money-making exercises rather than for any love of the art and a desire to pass it on.  There have been reports of ludicrous fees, especially for gradings, as these places have a reputation of being run as franchises - so somebody ailing the chain is getting rich out of teaching a martial art that, to many us, seems to have troubles not only in it's make-up but also in an all-too-fictional history.  We've been over that ground a lot here at MT so I shall not rake over those coals again - for those that are interested, a good search of the site for about five years ago will yield some very good discourses on the matter.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Sukerkin said:


> Sadly, it seems, I only know 'closed minded' martial artists, Dan .
> 
> TKD has it's own circles that it moves in I think where those that practise it are quite happy with it.  Nothing wrong with that; people doing what they enjoy is a good thing.  The pricing is another matter but that's up to the people that do it in the end.  If they think it is worth it then they will pay for it.
> 
> The circles I move in are a bit more 'orthodox' I suppose is a good word for it.  I train in a traditional Japanese Sword Art and I share a dojo with a school of Katori extraction.
> 
> Compare:
> 
> [video=youtube_share;cQB5Lc1C_a8]http://youtu.be/cQB5Lc1C_a8[/video]
> 
> and
> 
> [video=youtube_share;KXDdIMZfATU]http://youtu.be/KXDdIMZfATU[/video]
> 
> With
> 
> [video=youtube_share;eLz-sl1ZfBs]http://youtu.be/eLz-sl1ZfBs[/video]
> 
> You can see why it might be that I tend to think of TKD as a bit Johnny-come-lately and rather too 'commercial' for my tastes .


Sure, I get that.  Different strokes.  And truth be told, the first two videos would be more likely to get me through the door to train.  The third, not so much.  As I said, TKD as seen in the Olympics isn't my preference either.

But let me ask you this: If you learned that an associate held a fourth dan in taekwondo, without knowing what org. issued it, would you not respect the time and training that a fourth dan in the art represents?  Even if it was an art that you have no interest in?


----------



## dancingalone

SahBumNimRush said:


> This is really off topic, but how much does the typical TKD school charge?  Personally, I don't have a multi-tiered scale (i.e. no add on charges for "black belt" or "master" clubs and such).  I charge a flat $50/month fee, which I feel is border line too cheap (I'm contemplating on raising the monthly dues in the future).  This allows the students to attend 2 classes per week.
> 
> Keep in mind that I don't own my own space, I teach out of fitness center, so my overhead is extremely low.  AND, this isn't my day job.  I do it because I see value in it, and I love it!



My competitors and I charge in the $100-$150 per month range.  This is in the commercial studio space with facilities and other added amenities to maintain.  I offer the chance to train up to 8 times a week for adults (1 hr evening class M-S and a lunchtime class on T and TH).

I'm doing OK.  Most people that walk in the door don't even bat an eye at the price quote, though I've given discounts to a handful that said they couldn't pay the full rate.


----------



## dancingalone

Sukerkin said:


> An awful lot of TKD schools seem to be run purely as money-making exercises rather than for any love of the art and a desire to pass it on.  There have been reports of ludicrous fees, especially for gradings, as these places have a reputation of being run as franchises - so somebody ailing the chain is getting rich out of teaching a martial art that, to many us, seems to have troubles not only in it's make-up but also in an all-too-fictional history.  We've been over that ground a lot here at MT so I shall not rake over those coals again - for those that are interested, a good search of the site for about five years ago will yield some very good discourses on the matter.



<Shrugs>  My dojang is my livelihood these days.  I offer a service that each of my customers must decide whether they are willing or able to pay for.  I don't feel badly about this.  I hope that some of these customers will become students, if the distinction makes sense to anyone reading on.

Certainly my karate students whom I do not currently charge at all appreciate the chance to train in a nicely furnished setting.  Before I purchased my business, my karate students studied and practiced at my home dojo and this meant they didn't have nearly round the clock availability as they do now.


----------



## Gnarlie

Daniel Sullivan said:


> But let me ask you this: If you learned that an associate held a fourth dan in taekwondo, without knowing what org. issued it, would you not respect the time and training that a fourth dan in the art represents?  Even if it was an art that you have no interest in?



I think you've hit the crux of the problem there - we are too quick to judge others based on the art, the style, the organisation and especially the rank, rather than considering without prejudice what the individual knows and is capable of doing.

We should try and avoid judging others I suppose, but it seems unavoidable. If you knew you were being judged as an individual based on someone's preconceived ideas, wouldn't you say you want and deserve the chance to prove those preconceptions wrong?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> popular doesnt equal quality Daniel, everyone knew the twilight book were crap, but they still sold a crap ton of copies...


Apparently not "everyone knew," as they still sold incredibly well.

And why were they crap?  From the standpoint of a literary critic, why were they crap?  Have you read them?  What made them crap?  Can you actually articulate it?  Or do you actually know?  Can you get past the trappings of vampires and werewolves and examine the actual story, literary style, and the quality of the storytelling?  

I haven't read them.  I know the gist of the story and the audience to which it was aimed.  I have no idea if the books were any good or not.  And I don't care; I'm not a teenaged girl, so I didn't read them.



Twin Fist said:


> your denial of reality is just that, denial


Not true.  You don't even have the decency to give an articulate response.  I gave you a very factual post.  And all you can do is be insulting.  In this thread, you accuse me of being delusional and called me a fanboy.  The tone of your responses to both myself and to others is purposefully antagonistic.  

 I have not called you names.  I have not intimated that you are delusional, stupid, driking Koolaid, or any other derrogetory remarks.  Nor have I dismissed any of your statments with snarky comments.  I have taken the time to give thoughtful and respectful responses to you.  I have also given credit when you've made what I thought were accurate observations. 

I ask that you maintain the same level of politeness towards me.



Twin Fist said:


> but you got your opinions, and i have mine


That is true of everyone.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

dancingalone said:


> <Shrugs>  My dojang is my livelihood these days.  I offer a service that each of my customers must decide whether they are willing or able to pay for.  I don't feel badly about this.  I hope that some of these customers will become students, if the distinction makes sense to anyone reading on.
> 
> Certainly my karate students whom I do not currently charge at all appreciate the chance to train in a nicely furnished setting.  Before I purchased my business, my karate students studied and practiced at my home dojo and this meant they didn't have nearly round the clock availability as they do now.



First off, although we've never trained together, the way you present and conduct yourself on here, as well as your knowledge, I have no doubt your students are getting what they pay for.  

I think it makes a significant difference IF, running a martial arts school is your livelihood.  It typically means you offer significantly more times/ opportunities to train.  More availibility, etc.  Not to mention more overhead.  

My KJN charges SIGNIFICANTLY more than I do at the bon kwan, but it is his livelihood.  I have nothing wrong with that.  

I'm not big fan of the "black belt clubs" or the birthday parties, or the daycares, etc.. . But that is strictly my preference.  I have the luxury of not needing those 'add ons' as it isn't my day job.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> popular doesnt equal quality Daniel, everyone knew the twilight book were crap, but they still sold a crap ton of copies...



I could be wrong, but you seem to operate under the assumption that your opinion is, or should be, shared by the entire world. It ought to be painfully obvious that "everyone" didn't consider them "crap", or they (and the movies) would not have been so wildly popular.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sukerkin said:


> That's refreshing to hear, Dr. Rush :sensei rei:.
> 
> An awful lot of TKD schools seem to be run purely as money-making exercises rather than for any love of the art and a desire to pass it on.  There have been reports of ludicrous fees, especially for gradings, as these places have a reputation of being run as franchises - so somebody ailing the chain is getting rich out of teaching a martial art that, to many us, seems to have troubles not only in it's make-up but also in an all-too-fictional history.  We've been over that ground a lot here at MT so I shall not rake over those coals again - for those that are interested, a good search of the site for about five years ago will yield some very good discourses on the matter.


This is the sort of thing that I said hurts the reputation of taekwondo early on in this thread.  I have said it many times over the years.  It has hurt other arts as well, but it hit taekwondo a lot harder due to taekwondo's popularity.


----------



## Sukerkin

I should make sure my cards are visible on the table when we talk about the pricing of instruction - I am not in favour of anyone using martial arts as a means of making a living. I'm not just pointing a finger at TKD as the sole 'miscreants' in that regard .

By all means cover your costs but the impetus to instruct should be a love of the art and a desire to preserve it and pass it on.  It's a peculiarly quirky idea to hold in the modern age I know, to think it is wrong to make money from a skill that you have and I am aware of how odd it must sound, especially those with more commercialised ears.  But it's how my contact with the martial arts has guided me so that I feel, however illogically, that the purity of the art is sullied and lost if it becomes a commercial venture.


----------



## Dirty Dog

SahBumNimRush said:


> This is really off topic, but how much does the typical TKD school charge?  Personally, I don't have a multi-tiered scale (i.e. no add on charges for "black belt" or "master" clubs and such).  I charge a flat $50/month fee, which I feel is border line too cheap (I'm contemplating on raising the monthly dues in the future).  This allows the students to attend 2 classes per week.
> 
> Keep in mind that I don't own my own space, I teach out of fitness center, so my overhead is extremely low.  AND, this isn't my day job.  I do it because I see value in it, and I love it!




There are *soooo* many variables at work here... Even something as simple as location - some areas have higher rents, so the charges will have to be higher.

We are a YMCA-based program, so we pay no rent as such, but the fees are split with the Y. Costs are $40  per month for Y members, $60 for non-members.  Each week we offer four 1 hour classes (two each on Tuesday and Thursday) and one 90 minute class (Saturday). We are discussing the possibility of adding a 1.5-2 hour class on Fridays for advanced poomsae, sparring and self-defense training.
We don't babysit, we don't do birthday parties (well, we celebrate our students birthdays, but I think that's different), we don't have any clubs and we don't have mandatory testing schedules.


----------



## dancingalone

Sukerkin said:


> I should make sure my cards are visible on the table when we talk about the pricing of instruction - I am not in favour of anyone using martial arts as a means of making a living. I'm not just pointing a finger at TKD as the sole 'miscreants' in that regard .
> 
> By all means cover your costs but the impetus to instruct should be a love of the art and a desire to preserve it and pass it on.  It's a peculiarly quirky idea to hold in the modern age I know, to think it is wrong to make money from a skill that you have and I am aware of how odd it must sound, especially those with more commercialised ears.  But it's how my contact with the martial arts has guided me so that I feel, however illogically, that the purity of the art is sullied and lost if it becomes a commercial venture.



I understand where you are coming from.  To give you perspective, I hold dan rank also in aikido where dojos are often operated under a nonprofit charter and fees are kept as low as possible in keeping with that spirit.  

But with that said, aikido owes a lot in heritage to its parent art, Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, and we know that Taekeda Sokaku, an excellent swordsman who combined the various empty hand skills he learned and taught them under the Daito-Ryu umbrella, traveled throughout Japan, earning his living from giving lessons.  He kept extensive logs of who he taught, what he taught, and even how much he charged.  Funny stuff you might think from a man who came from a samurai background where money was traditionally scorned.  

I think some of the same ethos might be found in koryu arts such as the one you study, Sukerkin.  So which model is the 'correct' one?  Is it OK that we follow the example of Takeda Sensei who very definitely charged money for his knowledge?  This is a question more for thought and reflection rather than meant to ask or challenge anyone.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sukerkin said:


> I should make sure my cards are visible on the table when we talk about the pricing of instruction - I am not in favour of anyone using martial arts as a means of making a living. I'm not just pointing a finger at TKD as the sole 'miscreants' in that regard .
> 
> By all means cover your costs but the impetus to instruct should be a love of the art and a desire to preserve it and pass it on.  It's a peculiarly quirky idea to hold in the modern age I know, to think it is wrong to make money from a skill that you have and I am aware of how odd it must sound, especially those with more commercialised ears.  But it's how my contact with the martial arts has guided me so that I feel, however illogically, that the purity of the art is sullied and lost if it becomes a commercial venture.


It is neither right nor wrong to feel as you do, but you're not the only person that I have heard express such a view.  I respect it, though I don't fully agree.  It could just as easily be argued that love of the arts prompts one to pour their life into it.  Is this not the most common advice given to young people in regards to a career: Do what you love?  

And did not the "masters of old" receive income from their craft?  Before the days of belts and blackbelt clubs, prominent masters did, in fact, charge money and make their living teaching their art.  Not all, but many did.  And not just in Asia.  

As one who does not derive his sustenance from instruction, I can say that I enjoy the freedom that I have; I am unbound by the whims of the market or of parents who think I should run my class differently.  I don't use belts, as I run a fencing school, so I don't have to deal with that either.

On the other hand, if I had the opportunity to do nothing but run a fencing school, I would likely take it.  

I don't judge a commercial school owner's motivations.  I look at the content of his or her classes and how they conduct themselves in a commercial environment and decide from there if it is a school that I would either want to be a part of or would recommend to others.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

One other observation I have made over the years is that often, people equate low or no fee with good instruction and fees equal to or greater than market average as equating to bad instruction.  The two really don't have any connection.  I have seen some very good instructors who charge market rate and some very good instructors who don't charge at all.  I have also seen some very, very lousy instructors who charge market rates and some very, very lousy instructors who charge little to nothing.

I also have noticed that the more popular something is, the more likely people are to dismiss it simply because it is popular.  There is something about being mainstream that just rubs a lot of people the wrong way.  I worked for a while in music retail and noticed a very consistent trend of a band's fans turning on them after they made it big.  In most cases, I also noticed that the playing level of the bands in question had usually improved, not degraded.  

We all have a part of us that likes to be in the small group that likes the quirky, non mainstream thing, whatever it might be, and view it as more authentic than the more mainstream, commercial alternatives.  Which is fine, so long as we remember that mainstream and commercial success and its absense do not automatically determine the quality or authenticity of a product, service, or craft.


----------



## Sukerkin

An interesting and well posited point there, Mr. Sullivan :tup:.  

I would still maintain that the 'commercial' seam that TKD has mined in recent times tends to shake my belief that quality instruction, rather than 'meeting targets' for 'sale' of belts, is the goal of many franchise schools.  But you are quite right to point out that one does not in and of itself equate to the other :nods:.


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## Gnarlie

With price, there's also the issue of perceived value. If you don't charge enough for your lessons, people tend not to value them as much and your attendance rates drop. When people pay more for something, they feel like they have to get their money's worth. It works another way too: they perceive the quality of what they are getting as better than the cheaper place down the road, regardless of whether or not that is actually true.


----------



## chrispillertkd

dancingalone said:


> But with that said, aikido owes a lot in heritage to its parent art, Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, and we know that Taekeda Sokaku, an excellent swordsman who combined the various empty hand skills he learned and taught them under the Daito-Ryu umbrella, traveled throughout Japan, earning his living from giving lessons. He kept extensive logs of who he taught, what he taught, and even how much he charged. Funny stuff you might think from a man who came from a samurai background where money was traditionally scorned.



 And yet the Yagyu were employed by the Shogun, and other families by various daimyo, specifically in order to teach their martial art. You could draw a very good salary in such a situation. So the "tradition" of money being "scorned" by samurai might not be as all encompassing as it first might appear.

There's nothing inherently wrong with making a living from teaching martial arts. The problem is when your _motivation_ is to make money at the expense of handing on whatever tradition you teach. There's a difference. You can make a great living by attracting many students even if your main goal is to produce quality martial artists through excellent training. _Especially_ if that's your motivation in some cases, I'd say. YMMV

I have been fortunate enough to train under an instructor who didn't need to charge a large amount because he held down a day job and taught because he loves Taekwon-Do. It was his attitude about Taekwon-Do that has been one of the reasons why he has had so many students over the years.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sukerkin said:


> An interesting and well posited point there, Mr. Sullivan :tup:.
> 
> I would still maintain that the 'commercial' seam that TKD has mined in recent times tends to shake my belief that quality instruction, rather than 'meeting targets' for 'sale' of belts, is the goal of many franchise schools.  But you are quite right to point out that one does not in and of itself equate to the other :nods:.


I suspect that meeting sales goals, regardless of what they're for, is fairly pervasive in TKD.  I won't say that it is the prime motivation for most schools, but it certainly is a major factor in decision making.


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not true.  You don't even have the decency to give an articulate response.



actually, I am others have given many MANY examples of what we are talking about and you just dismiss them out of hand, i cant speak for anyone else, but I am kind of done beating my head against your wall of denial. You wont even grant the possibility that what i and others have spoken of is true in our experience.

your responses may be polite and long, but they amount to "no it isnt" over and over


----------



## Twin Fist

Dirty Dog said:


> I could be wrong, but you seem to operate under the assumption that your opinion is, or should be, shared by the entire world. It ought to be painfully obvious that "everyone" didn't consider them "crap", or they (and the movies) would not have been so wildly popular.



popular does not equal good


----------



## Dirty Dog

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I suspect that meeting sales goals, regardless of what they're for, is fairly pervasive in TKD.  I won't say that it is the prime motivation for most schools, but it certainly is a major factor in decision making.



I think once you go the commercial route, they become a major factor in decision making for every school, regardless of style.
That's the strongest argument against the commercial school route; if it's how you make your living, the school *must* be profitable, and all too often that leads to mandatory testing schedules, long term contracts, fee based "clubs" within the school and 'if you can afford it, we will award it' decisions (I stole that from someones .sig. I think it was Mr Bishop. But it is *soooo* apropriate.). Without the profit motive, the McDojo likely wouldn't exist.


----------



## Sukerkin

Twin Fist said:


> popular does not equal good



Well there must be some reason I went to the cinema with my late wife to watch the movies


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> popular does not equal good



Actually, in this case it does. At least in the view of the millions of people who bought the books and saw the movies.


TKD is very popular - quite possibly the most widely practiced martial art in the world. That is neither inherently good or bad. It merely is. 

Some people (you give the impression that you may fall into this category) seem to automatically assume that anything that is popular is somehow inferior. That isn't the case.

The small subset of TKD shown in the Olympics is not (to my mind) ideal, but it certainly can't "ruin" the reputation of TKD in general. Let's face it. The "general public" doesn't know one art from another, and doesn't care to.


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## Sukerkin

I think that *DD*'s last sentence there is far more true than a lot of us would like it to be .


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dirty dog said:


> the small subset of tkd shown in the olympics is not (to my mind) ideal, but it certainly can't "ruin" the reputation of tkd in general. Let's face it. The "general public" doesn't know one art from another, and doesn't care to.



qft!


----------



## dancingalone

chrispillertkd said:


> And yet the Yagyu were employed by the Shogun, and other families by various daimyo, specifically in order to teach their martial art. You could draw a very good salary in such a situation. So the "tradition" of money being "scorned" by samurai might not be as all encompassing as it first might appear.
> 
> There's nothing inherently wrong with making a living from teaching martial arts. The problem is when your _motivation_ is to make money at the expense of handing on whatever tradition you teach. There's a difference. You can make a great living by attracting many students even if your main goal is to produce quality martial artists through excellent training. _Especially_ if that's your motivation in some cases, I'd say. YMMV
> 
> I have been fortunate enough to train under an instructor who didn't need to charge a large amount because he held down a day job and taught because he loves Taekwon-Do. It was his attitude about Taekwon-Do that has been one of the reasons why he has had so many students over the years.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Nothing to disagree with there.  I think Apple and Samsung are currently producing (and ahem, marketing) some great products and making high profits as a result.  I think martial artists could frequently benefit from emulating these companies, particularly on the marketing side.  What are we doing today to grow our markets, our potential student bases beyond just the ones that are naturally likely to walk into the door all by themselves?  If we aren't trying to answer that question, we're not trying to GROW our martial art.


----------



## Twin Fist

dirty dog said:


> without the profit motive, the mcdojo likely wouldn't exist.



qft


----------



## Twin Fist

Dirty Dog said:


> but it certainly can't "ruin" the reputation of TKD in general. Let's face it. The "general public" doesn't know one art from another, and doesn't care to.



and this is where you are wrong

IF we agree that the WTF style sparring gym is becoming more and more common then that image is the most likely to be seen by the general public. With me so far?

with that image being the most commonly seen by the public, and it having the same name as the ART of TKD then the impression that WTF style sparring IS all that there is to TKD will become widespread

and IF we agree that the WTF style sparring is NOT the best representation of the ART of TKD it is undeniable that the general public will be seeing a one sided representation of what TKD is, and the general public wont know that there is a whole other art of tkd that includes more than bouncy kick sparring.... 

so yeah, it certainly can taint the reputation of the ART of TKD

same way someone can think that mcdonalds is the end all of burgers if that is the only burger they have ever eaten because it is the most common. 

and NO, i dont think anything that is popular is bad, but i am not so stupid as to think that just because it is popular that it is good.


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## Sukerkin

You see, gentlemen, there is a common ground where we can all stand here I think.  For I am seeing statements being made left and right that I agree with.  Not all have all of the truth but there is some of the truth in all of them :nods:.


----------



## chrispillertkd

dancingalone said:


> Nothing to disagree with there. I think Apple and Samsung are currently producing (and ahem, marketing) some great products and making high profits as a result. I think martial artists could frequently benefit from emulating these companies, particularly on the marketing side. What are we doing today to grow our markets, our potential student bases beyond just the ones that are naturally likely to walk into the door all by themselves? If we aren't trying to answer that question, we're not trying to GROW our martial art.



And yet, I think it is the marketing aspect of things that people find ... off-putting. It's because I have seen some people that run schools like a car dealership that I personally find some of the more over the top marketing offensive (on the flip side, I'm not of those people who wants to outlaw everything that offends them; I just want to point out to the people offending me how wrong they are  ). It's not marketing _per se_ that's the problem, IMO, it's some of the kinds of marketing that gets done. 

We are all influenced by the context in which we learned martial arts and our experiences doing that. I already pointed out that my instrctor had a full time job and didn't really "need" to teach. He also did almost no advertising. For years his marketing consisted of a Yellow Pages ad and a mention in the flyer that the community center in which he runs classes. He did do many, many demonstrations at various schools, libraries, and some community activities but most of the "marketing" for his school was word of mouth. And it worked. The town he teaches in has about 41,000 people or so. He's taught easily thousands of people over the years and has an active student body of a bit over 100 (last time we discussed it he said 125 IIRC). That's a pretty good number for a part time operation in a city that size which also has about 8 other martial arts schools (half of which are TKD). Heck, he didn't even have a web site until a few years ago. But people keep coming because over the years (he and his wife have been teaching for over 40 years now) he's cultuvated a well-deserved reputation as being a great instructor, a great technician, and a great person. Ultimately, IMNSHO, an instructor is his best marketing strategy. If you're a jerk no amount of marketing is going to fix that problem. 

I will say that in theory, I don't have a problem with media advertising. But I have seen very few examples of such advertising that didn't strike me as being contrived, an exhibition of the instructor's ego, or specifically geared at simply getting people in the door. Yes, I know that getting people in the door is the goal of marketing but I'd prefer to see advertising that doesn't smack me between the eyes and is so obvious about it. Of course, I'm old enough to remember when lawyers weren't allowed to advertise. Certain professions were expected to have a certain decorum about them. A certain dignity. (Sure there were ambulance chasers even then but we didn't have to see theor commercials on television.) In my naivete sometimes I think that martial arts instructors should emulate those characteristics in their lives and profession, too.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## dancingalone

chrispillertkd said:


> And yet, I think it is the marketing aspect of things that people find ... off-putting. It's because I have seen some people that run schools like a car dealership that I personally find some of the more over the top marketing offensive (on the flip side, I'm not of those people who wants to outlaw everything that offends them; I just want to point out to the people offending me how wrong they are  ). It's not marketing _per se_ that's the problem, IMO, it's some of the kinds of marketing that gets done.
> 
> ....
> 
> In my naivete sometimes I think that martial arts instructors should emulate those characteristics in their lives and profession, too.



Marketing isn't necessarily cheesy, over-the-top, or even unseemly.  You're a college-educated man, Chris, aren't you?  You probably know publicity campaigns are carefully composed and targeted for their audiences.  Good marketing/advertising can work when we don't even notice that it's there.  It can be as old-fashioned as a tasteful business card printed on quality stock.  It can be an informative website coded to modern browser capabilities so the user isn't forced to click around a lot to receive information mutually beneficial to both him and you. Or it can be something else, still tasteful but still creating an awareness of your product/service and eliciting a desire from others to come learn more about it.

That something else is what I suggest we (me anyway) think long and hard about.  I don't do cheesy myself.


----------



## chrispillertkd

dancingalone said:


> Marketing isn't necessarily cheesy, over-the-top, or even unseemly.



 Oh, sure, it doesn't _have_ to be. That's why I said, "I will say that in theory, I don't have a problem with media advertising. But I have seen very few examples of such advertising that didn't strike me as being contrived, an exhibition of the instructor's ego, or specifically geared at simply getting people in the door." The problem is I've seen so little martial arts marketing that isn't contrived, an exhibition of the instructor's ego, etc. I know one very well known Grand Master who had some down right _horrible_ ads some years ago. I still shake my head when I think about them (in fact, I just shook my head thinking about them!).



> You're a college-educated man, Chris, aren't you? You probably know publicity campaigns are carefully composed and targeted for their audiences. Good marketing/advertising can work when we don't even notice that it's there. It can be as old-fashioned as a tasteful business card printed on quality stock. It can be an informative website coded to modern browser capabilities so the user isn't forced to click around a lot to receive information mutually beneficial to both him and you. Or it can be something else, still tasteful but still creating an awareness of your product/service and eliciting a desire from others to come learn more about it.



Oh, I agree with you. I will say that I have seen not a few schools have very well done web sites (simple, easy to use, informative, etc.), and some well done business cards (the Special Assistant to the ITF President gave me his a few years ago and it was very nice, for example; well designed and elegant not cluttered). Unfortunately, the dross seems to far outweigh the good, you know? I am not entirely convinced that pop culture is a fitting means of promulgating martial arts and yet I see more than a few schools suggesting to their prospective students that their children will be knee-high Power Rangers if they just sign them up for their "Little Ninjas" class. 



> That something else is what I suggest we (me anyway) think long and hard about. I don't do cheesy myself.



Of this I have no doubt. It's not impossible to get a read of people from their posts here and on other BBS and that's certainly not the impression I get from what you've written. Like I said, I don't have a problem with martial arts marketing itself. I've just seen so little of it tastefully done. Which brings me back to your point about ad campaigns being targeted to specific audiences. I can only _hope_ that the schools I've seen that seem to have ads and web sites that look like something from Kung-Fu theatre or has the instructor snarling in an appropriately viscious manner really work on educating the students they get that are attracted to that kind of thing in things like decorum, dignity, courtesy, eyc. 

I _hope_ that's what they do. But I'm not holding my breath.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Dirty Dog

Twin Fist said:


> and this is where you are wrong



No, this is one place where our opinions differ. There's lots of gray between "right" and "wrong" and I'd encourage you to get over yourself.



Twin Fist said:


> IF we agree that the WTF style sparring gym is becoming more and more common then that image is the most likely to be seen by the general public. With me so far?



No. I don't see that schools which only teach Olympic sparring are all that common or becoming more common. I am quite close to the Olympic Training Center, and even right down the street from the OTC, the most common TKD school teaches... wait for it... the entire art.



Twin Fist said:


> with that image being the most commonly seen by the public, and it having the same name as the ART of TKD then the impression that WTF style sparring IS all that there is to TKD will become widespread



The general public doesn't see ANY image, since the general public couldn't care less about TKD, WC, JKD or any other martial art.



Twin Fist said:


> and IF we agree that the WTF style sparring is NOT the best representation of the ART of TKD it is undeniable that the general public will be seeing a one sided representation of what TKD is, and the general public wont know that there is a whole other art of tkd that includes more than bouncy kick sparring....



Nope. Don't agree there either. Even within my own family, the only ones who would know the difference are the ones who are training. The others? They can watch Olympic sparring, and say "wow, cool kicks" and recognise (without me telling them) that it's a sport, and therefore not going to allow the full range of techniques taught in the art.


----------



## Twin Fist

I have been polite and I still get dinged. Since clearly no one is allowed anti olympic opinions anymore, i bid this forum good day.


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> I have been polite and I still get dinged. Since clearly no one is allowed anti olympic opinions anymore, i bid this forum good day.



Don't leave!!!!


----------



## Gnarlie

Twin Fist said:


> I have been polite and I still get dinged. Since clearly no one is allowed anti olympic opinions anymore, i bid this forum good day.



While it's clear that our opinions on the matter are somewhat different, your posts in this thread have been essential in moving to discussion forward and forcing both you and those of us who do not agree with you to fully explore and justify our positions.

I can certainly see and appreciate that you have made an effort to respond to my posts here in a full and polite way, so thank you for that.

How people react to you depends on whether they read what you actually write e.g. 'and that is where you are wrong', or they can get past that and read 'and that is where our opinions differ'.  As Ricky Gervais says, "You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts."

I would encourage those people who disagree with you to see past any dryness/sarcasm, history, or perceived confrontational style issues and respond to your underlying points, which are certainly valid and need to be addressed as a part of the discussion process.  I agree with Gorilla; don't go, this has been the most interesting thread in ages up to now and it needs your counterpoint to feed constructive discussion.


----------



## Gnarlie

Twin Fist said:


> and this is where you are wrong
> 
> IF we agree that the WTF style sparring gym is becoming more and more common then that image is the most likely to be seen by the general public. With me so far?
> 
> with that image being the most commonly seen by the public, and it having the same name as the ART of TKD then the impression that WTF style sparring IS all that there is to TKD will become widespread
> 
> and IF we agree that the WTF style sparring is NOT the best representation of the ART of TKD it is undeniable that the general public will be seeing a one sided representation of what TKD is, and the general public wont know that there is a whole other art of tkd that includes more than bouncy kick sparring....
> 
> so yeah, it certainly can taint the reputation of the ART of TKD
> 
> same way someone can think that mcdonalds is the end all of burgers if that is the only burger they have ever eaten because it is the most common.
> 
> and NO, i dont think anything that is popular is bad, but i am not so stupid as to think that just because it is popular that it is good.



OK, let's assume for now that I agree with you on the point that if Olympic sparring is what people see, then that will lead them to adopt the fully formed opinion that that is all TKD is. I'm not sure that's true, but let's assume for now. Even fully formed opinion can be changed if you interact with that person in the right way.

If people have seen something on TV, be it Olympic sparring, Power Rangers, Human Weapon or whatever, and that's formed their view of the art, then their view is going to be skewed and somewhat inaccurate.

All of us, every practitioner of every breed, brand and offshoot of Taekwondo everywhere, acts as an ambassador for our art.  

It's our job as ambassadors to give those people enough information to form a fuller picture. Now I'm not saying that we need to go around like some kind of fanatic trying to convert everyone to our way of thinking, but giving people the information and communicating it clearly in a way that will influence their opinion is key.

In my experience, most people don't look further than the information that is already available to them when forming the embryo of an opinion, BUT, inwardly they know they haven't done their homework, and that opinion forming is not yet complete. In that situation, I find that people are open to receiving more information and are willing to alter their opinion and perception based on the new information if it is presented in the right way.

This is evident when you ask people 1 year into their training 'So, is Taekwondo what you expected it to be when you walked in the door of this place?'.  In my experience, the answer to this question is 'No, there is much more to it than I realised', regardless of whether that person had seen Olympic sparring or knew nothing at all when they joined. Who knew they would be learning to deal with being attacked while seated, for example.

For the reasons above, it's important to think about how we present ourselves and communicate our ideas on this public forum. The information here, and how we communicate it will go towards people forming opinion of the art of TKD. When we express ourselves less than politely, and we backbite and *****, guess what an outsider reading the thread will think of TKD?

We, as ambassadors for our art, exert way more influence over public opinion than televised sport coverage ever could. We have the ability not just to give people information, but to present it in such a way that it changes their opinion. If we want people to have a positive opinion of our art, that starts right here at home.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Honestly, I think the one thing that has "harmed" taekwondo's reputation, especially with the "black belt is supposed to mean..." crowd, is movement to market Taekwondo to children. I so not mean to say that I'm against kids in Taekwondo. When I operated a school in the US my student body was probably 85-90% children, and pretty much every other school I can think of was about the same. Taekwondo instructors got very good at marketing their product as something good for kids to do. As a result, I imagine lots of people think of Taekwondo as a kids activity. Regardless of whether or not the kids have black belts or not, being thought of as something primarily for kids probably hurts taekwondo's reputation, at least with a certain crowd.


----------



## Gorilla

I think kids in the art from a young age will develop the future leaders of the art...not the Internet Curmdgeons that only see what they do as valid....I have been posting on the BBS for almost 4 years....I have never said a bad thing about any art!!!!All the professional Martial Artists that I meet have no problem with Sport Tkd...I tend to be a positive person...positive people attract positive people....Internet Curmugeon attracts Internet Curmugeon!


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Gorilla said:


> I think kids in the art from a young age will develop the future leaders of the art...not the Internet Curmdgeons that only see what they do as valid....I have been posting on the BBS for almost 4 years....I have never said a bad thing about any art!!!!All the professional Martial Artists that I meet have no problem with Sport Tkd...I tend to be a positive person...positive people attract positive people....Internet Curmugeon attracts Internet Curmugeon!


I assume by "internet curmugeon" you mean people who dont share your point of view


----------



## Gorilla

ralphmcpherson said:


> I assume by "internet curmugeon" you mean people who dont share your point of view



No.....Come on Ralph.....we don't always agree but when I think of "internet Curmugeon" it's not you!!!!


----------



## Cyriacus

I think what were seeing here is a failure of text.

Its very very hard to speak in favor of or against something without intentionally or otherwise putting down the alternative. And when you read text, it can lack context.
For example:
"_I think kids in the art from a young age will develop the future leaders of the art...not the Internet Curmdgeons that only see what they do as valid...."
_For which i could call you a curmugeon for thinking that your idea that young people are the future leaders of the art. I could say that young people are just practitioners wholl probably just teach what they were taught either exactly, or with their own flavor blended in. Then theyll all be either masters of their art of masters of different arts they make out of it assuming they keep training and want to teach instead of just keep learning, possibly going by the same name. But then what i just said can be read as contradicting you, even though all i did is say exactly what you just said in a different way.

Text is very fickle. And right now im seeing a minor dispute about nothing (as in, youre not discussing the effect kids have, your just discussing training kids).
Yes, children are the future leaders. So what about me? Do i have to train with children i could toss with one hand just because theyre the future leaders, or cant i train with folks my own size (bare with me, im getting to the point)? If 90% of the students are kids, i wont join the class because i dont want to train to overcome someone i could, as i said, throw with one hand. And if only 10% of, say, 50 students are adult males, then that offers 5 training partners whove probably done most of their learning with kids they could toss with one hand. So if every TKD dojang in town was 90% kids, id go look for something else. Whether a majority of kids is harming the art itself is debatable, but i dont doubt that there are alot of potential students who dont become students for similar reasons.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Twin Fist said:


> I have been polite and I still get dinged. Since clearly no one is allowed anti olympic opinions anymore, i bid this forum good day.



Bulltits. You've been an antagonistic, opinion spewing, button pushing, ***** stirring SOB and you know it.  You push buttons of people who you know your comments will tweak and respond in ways guaranteed to gain attention.  You're someone smart enough to be able to reply civilly but you can't be bothered to do so, preferring to just spew your opinion regardless of anyone elses. If you dropped the cutting crap you might find more people agree with you and find less red ink on your record. (I still out score you on full on suspensions dude)

So what if TKD is a bastardized version of Karate? So what if the guys left Korea as green belts and got a dan rank for each time zone they crossed before landing in LA? So what if half the schools in the US are more fixated on winning a tournament than teaching solid self defense? Who cares if some 6 yr old is rocking a 4th dan with a trophy the size of my ego? Who cares if it's WTF or Kukimunga or Run DMC TKD?

No, seriously, who the **** cares?

I don't.  If I want to learn the art I'll find out all I can about it, compare my goals with who is teaching what, and connect accordingly.  If I want to play sports and win shiny ****, I'll go find a quality sports focused school. If I want to kick *** on the streets, I'll find a school with a solid SD focus. And if I want to be a warrior and hear the laminations of my enemies women, I'll join the SEAL's and go shoot Afghans at the Old Folks Home on 6th and Maple.

Seriously dude, you're allowed your opinion, but don't act surprised when you express it crassly and piss people off. Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right. Of course, some of those getting all pissy about what you spout need to grow a thicker skin. There's 1,000 arts out there, not everyone thinks your's is all that and a bag of ham. Personally, I think TKD isn't that great. All the schools I've seen are worried about trophies, and charging their students as much as they can as often as they can, and turn our mediocre fighters who wouldn't know what to do if I kicked them in the nuts because nuts isn't a fair target so they don't train for it. Just like the NHBUFC goobs who wouldn't know what to do when I brought the barbed wire bat in to the match.  Sissy whined about 'rules' and **** and threatened to call the cops and please don't tell his mommy he pissed hisself.

Wait. Where was I? Oh yeah, spanking double hammy and telling off the Stalinites.  Double Hammy might be an opinionated ***, but saying your sacred cow is a pig isn't bashing the cow when you can back it up with reasons that hold up. He does. So talk to your Avon lady and get some skin thickener, or put him on Ignore. Me too. 

As to the question: *Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?*

No. Because to the average person on the street TKD IS one of 3 things. The same as the watered down, scaled back, limited sports version done in the Olympics, just another generic martial art term (karate, kung fu, tkd all = same thing), or not even a consideration.  The only people who give a flying squrrel turd are the ones who know the difference and feel the need to argue about it.

Ok kids, back to the usual round and round and round. I have to go pop over to KenpoTalk and see if it's my turn to play with the big ban hammer.

Toodles!  I'm sure I'll hear a few reports on this too, and I'm sure I know from who. Kisses.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Gorilla said:


> No.....Come on Ralph.....we don't always agree but when I think of "internet Curmugeon" it's not you!!!!


I think we agree more than we disagree. Glad to know Im not a curmugeon


----------



## Sukerkin

I do so hate it, *TLL*, when you make me laugh as I try to formulate an in-thread 'nudge' to get you to behave yourself.  From my personal point of view there is some truth in what you say but, as always seems to be the case, there is a problem in the way that you say it.  The banner above the site entrance says "Friendly Martial Arts Discussion Forum" - let's try and keep it that way .


----------



## Gorilla

Probably the  best post of the thread!!!:jediduel:




The Last Legionary said:


> Bulltits. You've been an antagonistic, opinion spewing, button pushing, ***** stirring SOB and you know it.  You push buttons of people who you know your comments will tweak and respond in ways guaranteed to gain attention.  You're someone smart enough to be able to reply civilly but you can't be bothered to do so, preferring to just spew your opinion regardless of anyone elses. If you dropped the cutting crap you might find more people agree with you and find less red ink on your record. (I still out score you on full on suspensions dude)
> 
> So what if TKD is a bastardized version of Karate? So what if the guys left Korea as green belts and got a dan rank for each time zone they crossed before landing in LA? So what if half the schools in the US are more fixated on winning a tournament than teaching solid self defense? Who cares if some 6 yr old is rocking a 4th dan with a trophy the size of my ego? Who cares if it's WTF or Kukimunga or Run DMC TKD?
> 
> No, seriously, who the **** cares?
> 
> I don't.  If I want to learn the art I'll find out all I can about it, compare my goals with who is teaching what, and connect accordingly.  If I want to play sports and win shiny ****, I'll go find a quality sports focused school. If I want to kick *** on the streets, I'll find a school with a solid SD focus. And if I want to be a warrior and hear the laminations of my enemies women, I'll join the SEAL's and go shoot Afghans at the Old Folks Home on 6th and Maple.
> 
> Seriously dude, you're allowed your opinion, but don't act surprised when you express it crassly and piss people off. Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right. Of course, some of those getting all pissy about what you spout need to grow a thicker skin. There's 1,000 arts out there, not everyone thinks your's is all that and a bag of ham. Personally, I think TKD isn't that great. All the schools I've seen are worried about trophies, and charging their students as much as they can as often as they can, and turn our mediocre fighters who wouldn't know what to do if I kicked them in the nuts because nuts isn't a fair target so they don't train for it. Just like the NHBUFC goobs who wouldn't know what to do when I brought the barbed wire bat in to the match.  Sissy whined about 'rules' and **** and threatened to call the cops and please don't tell his mommy he pissed hisself.
> 
> Wait. Where was I? Oh yeah, spanking double hammy and telling off the Stalinites.  Double Hammy might be an opinionated ***, but saying your sacred cow is a pig isn't bashing the cow when you can back it up with reasons that hold up. He does. So talk to your Avon lady and get some skin thickener, or put him on Ignore. Me too.
> 
> As to the question: *Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?*
> 
> No. Because to the average person on the street TKD IS one of 3 things. The same as the watered down, scaled back, limited sports version done in the Olympics, just another generic martial art term (karate, kung fu, tkd all = same thing), or not even a consideration.  The only people who give a flying squrrel turd are the ones who know the difference and feel the need to argue about it.
> 
> Ok kids, back to the usual round and round and round. I have to go pop over to KenpoTalk and see if it's my turn to play with the big ban hammer.
> 
> Toodles!  I'm sure I'll hear a few reports on this too, and I'm sure I know from who. Kisses.


----------



## Gorilla

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think we agree more than we disagree. Glad to know Im not a curmugeon



absolutely....but that whole KKW sucks thing might stay a bone of contention!!!!:fart:


----------



## Gorilla

it's "internet Curmudgeon" :bangahead:





Cyriacus said:


> I think what were seeing here is a failure of text.
> 
> Its very very hard to speak in favor of or against something without intentionally or otherwise putting down the alternative. And when you read text, it can lack context.
> For example:
> "_I think kids in the art from a young age will develop the future leaders of the art...not the Internet Curmdgeons that only see what they do as valid...."
> _For which i could call you a curmugeon for thinking that your idea that young people are the future leaders of the art. I could say that young people are just practitioners wholl probably just teach what they were taught either exactly, or with their own flavor blended in. Then theyll all be either masters of their art of masters of different arts they make out of it assuming they keep training and want to teach instead of just keep learning, possibly going by the same name. But then what i just said can be read as contradicting you, even though all i did is say exactly what you just said in a different way.
> 
> Text is very fickle. And right now im seeing a minor dispute about nothing (as in, youre not discussing the effect kids have, your just discussing training kids).
> Yes, children are the future leaders. So what about me? Do i have to train with children i could toss with one hand just because theyre the future leaders, or cant i train with folks my own size (bare with me, im getting to the point)? If 90% of the students are kids, i wont join the class because i dont want to train to overcome someone i could, as i said, throw with one hand. And if only 10% of, say, 50 students are adult males, then that offers 5 training partners whove probably done most of their learning with kids they could toss with one hand. So if every TKD dojang in town was 90% kids, id go look for something else. Whether a majority of kids is harming the art itself is debatable, but i dont doubt that there are alot of potential students who dont become students for similar reasons.


----------



## andyjeffries

Gorilla said:


> Probably the  best post of the thread!!!:jediduel:



No way, it's the best post on martialtalk!


----------



## andyjeffries

The Last Legionary said:


> Bulltits. You've been an antagonistic, opinion spewing, button pushing, ***** stirring SOB and you know it.  You push buttons of people who you know your comments will tweak and respond in ways guaranteed to gain attention.  You're someone smart enough to be able to reply civilly but you can't be bothered to do so, preferring to just spew your opinion regardless of anyone elses. If you dropped the cutting crap you might find more people agree with you and find less red ink on your record. (I still out score you on full on suspensions dude)



I couldn't agree with this more.  He's the only person on my Ignore list (and has been for ages).  Now, if everyone could just stop feeding the troll I wouldn't ever see anything he's written again.


----------



## ATC

The Last Legionary said:


> Bulltits. You've been an antagonistic, opinion spewing, button pushing, ***** stirring SOB and you know it.  You push buttons of people who you know your comments will tweak and respond in ways guaranteed to gain attention.  You're someone smart enough to be able to reply civilly but you can't be bothered to do so, preferring to just spew your opinion regardless of anyone elses. If you dropped the cutting crap you might find more people agree with you and find less red ink on your record. (I still out score you on full on suspensions dude)
> 
> So what if TKD is a bastardized version of Karate? So what if the guys left Korea as green belts and got a dan rank for each time zone they crossed before landing in LA? So what if half the schools in the US are more fixated on winning a tournament than teaching solid self defense? Who cares if some 6 yr old is rocking a 4th dan with a trophy the size of my ego? Who cares if it's WTF or Kukimunga or Run DMC TKD?
> 
> No, seriously, who the **** cares?
> 
> I don't.  If I want to learn the art I'll find out all I can about it, compare my goals with who is teaching what, and connect accordingly.  If I want to play sports and win shiny ****, I'll go find a quality sports focused school. If I want to kick *** on the streets, I'll find a school with a solid SD focus. And if I want to be a warrior and hear the laminations of my enemies women, I'll join the SEAL's and go shoot Afghans at the Old Folks Home on 6th and Maple.
> 
> Seriously dude, you're allowed your opinion, but don't act surprised when you express it crassly and piss people off. Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right. Of course, some of those getting all pissy about what you spout need to grow a thicker skin. There's 1,000 arts out there, not everyone thinks your's is all that and a bag of ham. Personally, I think TKD isn't that great. All the schools I've seen are worried about trophies, and charging their students as much as they can as often as they can, and turn our mediocre fighters who wouldn't know what to do if I kicked them in the nuts because nuts isn't a fair target so they don't train for it. Just like the NHBUFC goobs who wouldn't know what to do when I brought the barbed wire bat in to the match.  Sissy whined about 'rules' and **** and threatened to call the cops and please don't tell his mommy he pissed hisself.
> 
> Wait. Where was I? Oh yeah, spanking double hammy and telling off the Stalinites.  Double Hammy might be an opinionated ***, but saying your sacred cow is a pig isn't bashing the cow when you can back it up with reasons that hold up. He does. So talk to your Avon lady and get some skin thickener, or put him on Ignore. Me too.
> 
> As to the question: *Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?*
> 
> No. Because to the average person on the street TKD IS one of 3 things. The same as the watered down, scaled back, limited sports version done in the Olympics, just another generic martial art term (karate, kung fu, tkd all = same thing), or not even a consideration.  The only people who give a flying squrrel turd are the ones who know the difference and feel the need to argue about it.
> 
> Ok kids, back to the usual round and round and round. I have to go pop over to KenpoTalk and see if it's my turn to play with the big ban hammer.
> 
> Toodles!  I'm sure I'll hear a few reports on this too, and I'm sure I know from who. Kisses.


OK that was pretty cool!!!


----------



## Cyriacus

Gorilla said:


> it's "internet Curmudgeon" :bangahead:



For what its worth, i didnt even know what that word meant before today


----------



## Gorilla

Cyriacus said:


> For what its worth, i didnt even know what that word meant before today


My job is done! Increasing vocabularies one word at a time!Curmudgeon is one of my favorite words...it describes my favorite poster...who I will never put on ignore...Long live the Internet Curmudgeon!!!!!


----------



## Cyriacus

Gorilla said:


> My job is done! Increasing vocabularies one word at a time!Curmudgeon is one of my favorite words...it describes my favorite poster...who I will never put on ignore...Long live the Internet Curmudgeon!!!!!



Praise be the skinflints! Hail the tightwads! Emergency housecat!

*Flees the thread*


----------



## Dirty Dog

Folks, as amusing as this can be, and as much in favor of education and improved vacabularies as I am, I'd still like to ask that we make an effort to return to the original topic. Thanks.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> I think kids in the art from a young age will develop the future leaders of the art...


To a certain extent, this is true of pretty much everything.  Kids involved in any sport or art tend to be the pool from which future leaders come.  And highlights that none of us "own" any of the arts that we practice, but are merely stewards of it.  How the current stewards train kids and teens and what lessons they teach them will have a strong impact on how future stewards care for the arts.



Gorilla said:


> not the Internet Curmdgeons that only see what they do as valid....


By its nature, internet posters, be they curmudgeons or no, are not developing the art, at least not in their capacity as internet posters.  Developing the art is a hands on, in person affair.  While we can discuss and debate how the art has developed/is developing in interenet forums, we are not developing the art in the process.

Also, being a curmudgeon does not automatically mean that a person only sees what they do as valid.  In fact, some those who are highly critical of the Kukkiwon and the WTF do see validity in things other than what they do; they simply don't care for what the Kukkiwon and the WTF do.  And not all of them are curmudgeons.  In fact, curmudgeons can be found on both sides of the debate.



Gorilla said:


> I have been posting on the BBS for almost 4 years....I have never said a bad thing about any art!!!!All the professional Martial Artists that I meet have no problem with Sport Tkd...I tend to be a positive person...positive people attract positive people....Internet Curmugeon attracts Internet Curmugeon!


Positivity attracts positivity and negativity attracts negativity.  Regardless of how one feels about the subject.


----------



## Gorilla

Daniel...Internet Curmugeons all around!!!!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> Daniel...Internet Curmugeons all around!!!!



I don't mind curmudgeons.  I do mind, "_agree with me 100% or not at all_" and "_this is how it is here, so this is how it is everywhere_."  Though in fairness, that second one is an easy trap to fall into.  I try to check myself before saying that something is or is not a certain way categorically based soley on personal experience because different areas have very different dynamics.

And if I were a curmudgeon, I'd say that if you're trying to educate people about curmudgeons, you should at least spell the word right.  But I'm not, so I won't.


----------



## Gorilla

Thank You...Curmudgeon..spelling has never been a strong point!!!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Well, I have nothing more to add to this topic.  In summary, I do not believe that taekwondo in the Olympics has ruined, or otherwise had a negative impact on the repuation of the art as a whole.  Anyone who wants greater detail on my answer can go back through the twenty five pages and read my responses.

Good day to all.


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## ATC

I agree. To this day we get people that come in all the time looking to start a Martial Art and they still call it Karate even though every sign at the school says Taekwondo. If you are doing Taekwondo then you should be focused on your training and what others do should not bother your. I don't care what Kung Fu people are doing nor do I care what Kempo people are doing. It does not affect me. Just as they don't care what Taekwondo people are doing. I also don't care what other Taekwondo people are doing in their schools. People not coming in to join a TKD school has nothing to do with the Olympics but more to do with what they see when looking at the school itself.


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## tkdwarrior

In watching recent taekwomdo competitions amd managing the same, I cannot but help notice the deterioration of our techniques and the martial artness of this event that we all love.

May I suggest that a return to some of the old rules be implemented?

May I suggest that a plus factor power point of 2 additional points be given to a competitor who because he/she manages to stagger an opponent because of his/her technique or causes his/her opponent to be knocked down because of his/her technique.

This will return some of the proper execution of techniques and at the same time minimize the "falling down" evasion tactics of many competitors.

Kindly forward my suggestion to whoever may have the power to act on it. Thank you


----------



## Balrog

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think the biggest problem is that someone sitting at home watching olympic tkd on their tv thinks that is what tkd is. They think we all bounce around in class, with hands by our sides, throwing heaps of kicks from a distance with no punching. As tkdists we know that isnt the case, but whether rightly or wrongly it doesnt look good to the uninitiated, and therefore paints tkd in a bad light. So to an extent, olympic tkd has been bad for tkd's reputation in my opinion.



This +1.  Very well stated.


----------



## dancingalone

Having run a commercial school for a few years now, I can say anecdotally that Olympic TKD has had NO impact whatsoever on my prospective students when they drop by the school.  I've never been asked about whether we offer such programs, and I would bet 8 out of 10 times, the prospect has no idea that TKD even exists as an Olympic sport.

Much ado about nothing IMO.  If you like it and want to train it, great.  If not fine too.  It matters as much to my daily life as does the existence of snowboarding as a Winter Games event.


----------



## WaterGal

dancingalone said:


> Having run a commercial school for a few years now, I can say anecdotally that Olympic TKD has had NO impact whatsoever on my prospective students when they drop by the school.  I've never been asked about whether we offer such programs, and I would bet 8 out of 10 times, the prospect has no idea that TKD even exists as an Olympic sport.



I agree that most people don't know that it's an Olympic sport and don't ask about that, but I've found that mentioning that it is can be a selling point, since it shows some legitimacy.  

What we do get asked is about whether we do contact sparring on a regular basis, since most non-WTF schools around here don't.  They do very occaisional light/no-contact point sparring, if they do any sparring at all.

So while I know this thread is basically about how WTF sparring isn't serious fighting and looks like tag or whatever, my experience is that when people come in and see the WTF sparring, and especially when they try it during their trial (we have extra gear so they can), they tend to be pretty impressed at the intensity and fun of it, and it's a big selling point for us.

Sure, the WTF rules could probably be improved to make the high-level matches more visually exciting and to make things more realistic. But, you know, I'm still pretty happy with what it on the whole.


----------



## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> I agree that most people don't know that it's an Olympic sport and don't ask about that, but I've found that mentioning that it is can be a selling point, since it shows some legitimacy.



Only if you're marketing a sport, rather than a Martial Art...

We've never had anybody (that I am aware of) who cared one way or the other about TKD as an Olympic sport.

We *have* had people leave because we are upfront about the fact that their 10 year old will *not* be getting a black belt from us anytime soon.


----------



## dancingalone

WaterGal said:


> since it shows some legitimacy.



Don't think I've had many conversations along that line either.  No questions about lineage.  Maybe 1 total asking about 'certification', but the person asking that came from another TKD system and thus was pre-sold already into the idea of martial arts certification, which as we know is a very recent phenomenon.   While we're on the subject, no newbie to the art has ever asked me to explain the different between our style and other TKD styles, nor asked us if we offered KKW certs or ITF or whatever else is out there.  

People care about location, price, time slots, and the training itself.  Probably in that order too IMO.


----------



## WaterGal

Hmm, guess I was pretty unclear about what I meant by "legitimacy".  

What I mean is that, firstly, having TKD sparring be in the Olympics gives what we do more legitimacy to prospective students/parents, because it indicates to them that it's a "real thing" in the sense that it's an internationally organized sport that can can be taken very seriously and done at a very high level of competition.

Also, while WTF sparring is sport, it's also people actually striking each other with some amount of force.  Something that, at most of our competitors, _never happens_. WTF sparring is not as realistic as some types of martial arts sparring, but it's a lot more realistic than kicking a sheet of paper or "kick near your opponent's body and then stop and reset and if you hit them you lose".  Which is pretty much the alternative around here, for TKD/TSD/karate type places.


----------



## tkdwarrior

No it has not but actually made it more popular. What is ruining it is the yearly change of rules that now makes our competitions look like child's play.


----------



## Thunder Foot

I love TKD in the Olympics, but until we get a new set of rules in this sport, it's going to die out and be on the Olympic elimination roster just like wrestling was.
These grazing blows to the head or "whiffed" attacks that are being counted as legitimate points simply must come to a halt. The powers that be should respect that this is a combative art, and award points accordingly. In a perfect world for me, they would adopt more of the Olympic boxing rule set in terms of impact and scoring criteria. 
So yes, in my opinion the current rule set as it stands is certainly hurting the essence of TKD after its international recognition in the Olympics.


----------



## Manny

Mr. President said:


> I just saw the olympic gold medal match in London. An Italian beat a guy from Gabon. The thing that bothered me the most, is that they were so obsessed with scoring and not being scored on, there was hardly any Taekwondo. They just stood side to side, hovering on one leg, constantly looking for an opening to score. It was pitiful.
> 
> I ran in a few people on the internet that said that Taekwondo's reputation has been damaged by the sporty side of Taekwondo, which is focused on scoring instead of fighting.
> 
> One of them said: It's a disgrace to the martial art and only soils it. These athletes have little to no technique and throw a flurry of weak kicks which though great in speed lack control and power.
> 
> You think it's true?



I think is ALL TRUE!!! but that's sport TKD not TRUE TKD! The true TKD is the one the implies many many things not only hovering and hoping like a rabbit and trowing weird kicks to just smack the hogu or just slap the helmet to get points.

Manny


----------



## Dirty Dog

Manny said:


> I think is ALL TRUE!!! but that's sport TKD not TRUE TKD! The true TKD is the one the implies many many things not only hovering and hoping like a rabbit and trowing weird kicks to just smack the hogu or just slap the helmet to get points.
> 
> Manny



I would say that "TRUE TKD" includes sport TKD. Certainly the sport is only a subset of the art, but it's still true TKD.


----------



## Manny

Dirty Dog said:


> I would say that "TRUE TKD" includes sport TKD. Certainly the sport is only a subset of the art, but it's still true TKD.



Not necesarily, inside TKD kyorugy is something important but Olimpic/TKD kyougi is not very important, however if your TKD dojang focusses on olimpic jyorugi style then it's super important.
There is a diference beetwen kyorugi and olimpic tkd sparring.

Manny


----------



## TrueJim

I think this discussion applies not only to taekwondo, but to sport martial arts in general:

Boxing is not really very much like a real-world fist-fight
Wrestling (Greco-Roman, Sumo, Ssireum, etc.) is not very much like real-world grappling
Fencing is not very much like a real-world sword fight
Sport archery is not very much like bow-hunting
Target-shooting is not very much like a real-word gunfight
For any kind of martial art (karate, taekwondo, boxing, wrestling, shooting, etc.), once you make-up rules and apply a scoring system, the combatants are going to change the way they execute in order to maximize their scores. The sport version of the art isn't going to look very much like the combat version of the art.


----------



## Drose427

The thing thats really hurt TKD's reputation is peoples misconceptions that Kukki is the only TKD. Or that ITF demos are the prime example of ITF. People see something and assume that exactly how it all is and it's wrong


----------



## Gnarlie

Drose427 said:


> The thing thats really hurt TKD's reputation is peoples misconceptions that Kukki is the only TKD. Or that ITF demos are the prime example of ITF. People see something and assume that exactly how it all is and it's wrong


Are you suggesting Kukki TKD gives a bad impression of the art as a whole? 

If you mean that people understand WTF regulated competition Taekwondo to represent the full art, then I understand your point as there is a depth to the art that is not best showcased by that format. 

If you are suggesting that Kukki TKD is in some way deficient in relation to the wider range of Tae Kwon Do styles, I would have to disagree...


----------



## Drose427

Im suggesting that people are basing their full view of TKD on Demos and sport. Making them feel thats all TKD has to offer. It's not TKD's fault, it's the fault of the ill-informed.


----------



## TrueJim

Drose427 said:


> Im suggesting that people are basing their full view of TKD on Demos and sport. Making them feel thats all TKD has to offer. It's not TKD's fault, it's the fault of the ill-informed.



I wonder if perhaps taekwondo is a victim of its own success. Taekwondo is commonly cited as being the most popular martial art in the world. I wonder if any martial art -- once it becomes that popular -- would struggle with the same issues. Like, imagine if krav maga were to become the most popular martial art in the world. It's so popular that parents are lining up to enroll their young children in krava maga classes in shopping-center after-school programs all across the suburbs, teens are uploading YouTube videos of krava maga-inspired dance routines, it becomes an Olympic-level event with rules tailored for sport competition -- all of that stuff is happening because krav maga is just that darn _popular_. 

So then common folk look at all that peripheral activity and conclude, "Krav Maga -- that's no martial art! All that dancin' and hoppin' and YouTubin'!" Maybe the only way to keep a martial art "pure" is to make sure it remains unpopular.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Drose427 said:


> Im suggesting that people are basing their full view of TKD on Demos and sport. Making them feel thats all TKD has to offer. It's not TKD's fault, it's the fault of the ill-informed.



No, it's not. The "ill-informed" cannot reasonably be expected to know more than they've been shown. If people come away from a demo with an unrealistic view of what TKD has to offer, it's the fault of the people performing the demo. 
That's what a demo _*is*_ after all; a chance to show the "ill-informed" what TKD really is.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

TrueJim said:


> I think this discussion applies not only to taekwondo, but to sport martial arts in general:
> 
> Boxing is not really very much like a real-world fist-fight
> Wrestling (Greco-Roman, Sumo, Ssireum, etc.) is not very much like real-world grappling
> Fencing is not very much like a real-world sword fight
> Sport archery is not very much like bow-hunting
> Target-shooting is not very much like a real-word gunfight
> For any kind of martial art (karate, taekwondo, boxing, wrestling, shooting, etc.), once you make-up rules and apply a scoring system, the combatants are going to change the way they execute in order to maximize their scores. The sport version of the art isn't going to look very much like the combat version of the art.



I'm not sure boxing is the best example. An experienced boxer could and likely would fight very similarly on the street as in a ring.

A better example would be BJJ. The sport competition aspect of BJJ has grown just as far away from street application as Olympic TKD has. (This is to the dismay of some in the BJJ world.)

So far, the "non-street" nature of sport BJJ doesn't seem to have ruined the reputation of BJJ as a martial art. I think it's only a problem if practitioners train exclusively for competition and neglect the martial aspects. I guess the same probably applies to TKD.


----------



## Shajikfer

Mr. President said:


> I just saw the olympic gold medal match in London. An Italian beat a guy from Gabon. The thing that bothered me the most, is that they were so obsessed with scoring and not being scored on, there was hardly any Taekwondo. They just stood side to side, hovering on one leg, constantly looking for an opening to score. It was pitiful.
> 
> I ran in a few people on the internet that said that Taekwondo's reputation has been damaged by the sporty side of Taekwondo, which is focused on scoring instead of fighting.
> 
> One of them said: It's a disgrace to the martial art and only soils it. These athletes have little to no technique and throw a flurry of weak kicks which though great in speed lack control and power.
> 
> You think it's true?


 
I actually do think it true. Last time I watched the olympics, at least three different schools I either attended or practiced at after they had closed were cracking jokes about it. And when people do that, one might want to reconsider what they are doing.

A better way to put it is- If someone pulled a knife, would you do olympic TKD? I wouldn't, so why bother with it in my opinion outside of trying to make money off a sport. That's all it is- a sport. And I don't practice martial arts because it is a 'sport'.


----------



## Drose427

Shajikfer said:


> I actually do think it true. Last time I watched the olympics, at least three different schools I either attended or practiced at after they had closed were cracking jokes about it. And when people do that, one might want to reconsider what they are doing.
> 
> A better way to put it is- If someone pulled a knife, would you do olympic TKD? I wouldn't, so why bother with it in my opinion outside of trying to make money off a sport. That's all it is- a sport. And I don't practice martial arts because it is a 'sport'.



Maybe not, but many many people do. Its not likw these schools are claiming to be this "super RBSD" program, they know what they are. Usually they capitalize on sport and self growth.

If they arent all lying and money grubbing, let them have their niche.

Theres plenty of other tkd out there covering what you want.

Its not the arts fault the founders of fhe 9 kwans had to give so many different things the same name (which imo is one of the things that did hurt it). 

Fact is, many folks love sport tkd, even if they could take Traditional or ITF that has a strong SD program.


Its only hurt the reputation from folks who think its the epitome. When really its the most marketed form


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## ATC

Only in the eyes of others that do TKD and want all TKD to look like what they do. I can tell you that anyone of us on this board would get pretty badly beaten up by all Olympic level TKD practitioners, no matter what our style of TKD.


----------



## Drose427

ATC said:


> Only in the eyes of others that do TKD and want all TKD to look like what they do. I can tell you that anyone of us on this board would get pretty badly beaten up by all Olympic level TKD practitioners, no matter what our style of TKD.



My Sah Bum Nim competed in the '97 (or '99, cant remember the exact year) junior olympics, sparred a Lopez regularly (steve I believe as I think Mark was too yound), still does a lot of their exercises/workouts, and I have had the broken ribs and bruises to prove it. Even when we bust out the chest protectors, its pretty easy to tell where his feet have been. I couldnt begin to imagine sparring someone whos regularly competing at the highest level.

The few mid level competitors Ive sparred corroborate that. I mean, these guys break ribs and bruise through chest protectors...thats no easy task. I personally think chest protectors are why folks who regularly compete kick so hard.

There was a good article in TKD times about how many of the TKD associations can't seem to get along. I know my Grandmaster split and he and others form a separate association because they didnt like the direction of Kukki TKD

Frankly, I think the various TKD's are defined enough that you can find what youre looking for.

If you love competition and like sport TKD, do it!

If you want SD, its not that hard to find, not nearly as hard as some folks will try to say.

I think more folks need to just accept the different Orgs. If you dont like how one is, dont train that one..

Trying to have one central type has almost never worked in Martial Arts, people have different opinions and desires and its pointless to try. We all have TKD on our uniforms, who cares about intentions?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

As long as you try to follow the "sport" rule-set and win, you will always build up bad habit.

In

- kicking sport such as TKD, the grappling is ignored.
- grappling sport such as wrestling, the striking is ignored.








Even in BJJ, the "sport" can lead the MA into a funny zone.


----------



## Drose427

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As long as you try to follow the "sport" rule-set and win, you will always build up bad habit.
> 
> In
> 
> - kicking sport such as TKD, the grappling is ignored.
> - grappling sport such as wrestling, the striking is ignored.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even in BJJ, the "sport" can lead the MA into a funny zone.



Thats the opposite of the royler gracie/gracie killer fight where rorion butt slide all over the place






and people wonder why I think BJJ can be weird sometimes


----------



## Jaeimseu

ATC said:


> Only in the eyes of others that do TKD and want all TKD to look like what they do. I can tell you that anyone of us on this board would get pretty badly beaten up by all Olympic level TKD practitioners, no matter what our style of TKD.


I agree. Pretty much 100% of us wouldn't get out of the first round unless the other guy had mercy. It would take about 30-60 seconds for them to figure out we had nothing and then things would quickly go south for us. Olympic level TKD athletes are at a different level and it's a level that I bet the vast majority here have never experienced.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Kung Fu Wang said:


>


I saw one of my cats do that once, as a kitten.


----------



## Shajikfer

Jaeimseu said:


> I agree. Pretty much 100% of us wouldn't get out of the first round unless the other guy had mercy. It would take about 30-60 seconds for them to figure out we had nothing and then things would quickly go south for us. Olympic level TKD athletes are at a different level and it's a level that I bet the vast majority here have never experienced.


 
I'm not entirely sure of that. I am sure we have all met martial artists who if they went to the olympics would clear house, but have opted not to.

It's a different level of fighting ability, and I don't think it has to do with any particular art... just particular people.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Shajikfer said:


> I'm not entirely sure of that. I am sure we have all met martial artists who if they went to the olympics would clear house, but have opted not to.
> 
> It's a different level of fighting ability, and I don't think it has to do with any particular art... just particular people.


I didn't mean to imply that it was specifically taekwondo athletes who would "clear house." Most people have never seen a world class athlete up close. I doubt that most of us have met or trained with martial artists who are truly world class. I used to think I knew people who were great. Then I moved to Korea and discovered that there were guys performing at a whole different level. The gap between the elite competitors and typical "really good" martial artists is significant, in my opinion.


----------



## Gnarlie

Jaeimseu said:


> I didn't mean to imply that it was specifically taekwondo athletes who would "clear house." Most people have never seen a world class athlete up close. I doubt that most of us have met or trained with martial artists who are truly world class. I used to think I knew people who were great. Then I moved to Korea and discovered that there were guys performing at a whole different level. The gap between the elite competitors and typical "really good" martial artists is significant, in my opinion.



Very much agree. I was lucky enough to spend some time with the Korean youth team a while back. They are on course for the Olympics in a few years but are already on fire. It just doesn't matter how good you are, it is a humbling experience. Absolutely in a different league in terms of speed, power, fitness, timing, strategy, technique, just everything.

Trying to kick them, suddenly your timing and distancing seems off, and you become very aware that you are being played, and it's only a matter of time before they take you apart.

Different world.


----------



## WaterGal

ATC said:


> I can tell you that anyone of us on this board would get pretty badly beaten up by all Olympic level TKD practitioners, no matter what our style of TKD.



Hah, that's very, very true.  Athletes at that level are incredibly skilled, fast, and strong.  They could kick the heck out of most people in a heartbeat.  Olympic TKD matches seem like "there's not a lot going on" or whatever because they're so good and so well-matched that they're playing a whole different game than most of us.  It's kind of like how FIFA matches always seem to end with a 0-1 score - it's not because the teams are bad!


----------



## Tez3

WaterGal said:


> Hah, that's very, very true.  Athletes at that level are incredibly skilled, fast, and strong.  *They could kick the heck out of most people in a heartbeat.*  Olympic TKD matches seem like "there's not a lot going on" or whatever because they're so good and so well-matched that they're playing a whole different game than most of us.  It's kind of like how FIFA matches always seem to end with a 0-1 score - it's not because the teams are bad!




Well it would depend who they are going up against, a friend of mine asked me to spar with his TKD black just to teach them there's other ways of sparring really, I got in close and kicked low, punched and did take downs. They weren't used to it, there was no 'distance' between us to do their kicks. I knew they could kick high and fast so I made sure I wasn't in a position where they could do that.

They can kick the heck out of people...if they are allowed to, you just don't give them that chance, common sense.


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> They can kick the heck out of people...if they are allowed to, you just don't give them that chance, common sense.



That might be easier said than done. There's a world of difference between the average BB and the Olympic level. The chances of closing on someone with that level of anticipatory skill and agility drops to almost nothing unless they choose to let you in. I speak from experience - jamming is a favourite strategy for me, but there's just no way close without a written invitation. The slip back and counter game is just too strong and they can just do it forever, circling. Grabbing a leg doesn't help either it seems, just earns you a foot in the face.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> That might be easier said than done. There's a world of difference between the average BB and the Olympic level. The chances of closing on someone with that level of anticipatory skill and agility drops to almost nothing unless they choose to let you in. I speak from experience - jamming is a favourite strategy for me, but there's just no way close without a written invitation. The slip back and counter game is just too strong and they can just do it forever, circling. Grabbing a leg doesn't help either it seems, just earns you a foot in the face.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




However, just because there are TKD Olympians doesn't make TKD the only type of martial art that can kick peoples ****. It doesn't mean either that Olympian TKD competitors are unbeatable by anyone else, there is a whiff of elitism coming in when people start saying that some people are invincible. I would put someone like Ian Freeman up against a TKD Olympian and it wouldn't be the latter who prevailed, not because he does MMA btw but because of the sheer ferocity of his way of fighting which I have witnessed first hand on several occasions in training.
No one is invincible, hard to beat of course but not unbeatable.


----------



## Gnarlie

Absolutely, but the elite are just that - elite.  Too much for little me. And way more than Olympic TKD detractors might realise.


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> Absolutely, but the elite are just that - elite.  Too much for little me. And way more than Olympic TKD detractors might realise.




I think the problem is that people see the Olympic TKD as just being a kicking competition, a good one but still just kicking, they don't see it as competitive 'fighting', it's a sort of glorified shin kicking competition. That the competitors can do more is either overlooked or unknown, we don't know that they can do more simply because we never see it. People can only judge Olympic TKD by what they see and that's kicking each other, well, actually taking turns to kick each other. There are problems when the non elite, non Olympic TKD try to just kick while waiting their turn!


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## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> I think the problem is that people see the Olympic TKD as just being a kicking competition, a good one but still just kicking, they don't see it as competitive 'fighting', it's a sort of glorified shin kicking competition. That the competitors can do more is either overlooked or unknown, we don't know that they can do more simply because we never see it. People can only judge Olympic TKD by what they see and that's kicking each other, well, actually taking turns to kick each other. There are problems when the non elite, non Olympic TKD try to just kick while waiting their turn!


I sort of agree...IMO it's not a great spectator sport because you sort of have to be a TKD player to understand what it is that you're looking at and appreciate the skill - sometimes I think it just looks like nothing is going on, or just scrappy when two players are jamming each other's game. 

It's certainly more than trading blows, and it definitely constitutes full contact fighting, albeit within a limited rule set. Although even when that ruleset is removed, these elite people can still be hard to get to even for someone who has experience with sweeps, shoots, punching and so on. I wish that were easier for people outside the art to experience and see, but it's really only evident at the top of the game.

I've had similar experiences trying to get at high level Krav and BJJers, too. Just too much experience, and no way through. You have had this experience too, right? Just someone who seems bullet proof at the time?


----------



## WaterGal

Tez3 said:


> Well it would depend who they are going up against, a friend of mine asked me to spar with his TKD black just to teach them there's other ways of sparring really, I got in close and kicked low, punched and did take downs. They weren't used to it, there was no 'distance' between us to do their kicks. I knew they could kick high and fast so I made sure I wasn't in a position where they could do that.
> 
> They can kick the heck out of people...if they are allowed to, you just don't give them that chance, common sense.



Was his TKD student an Olympic competitor?  If so, wow!  That's really astonishing.  If not.... I mean, I'm seriously not disparaging your skill at all, but I'm not talking about ordinary TKDists who do Olympic-style sparring.  I'm talking about the best in the world. It's the same with any type of sport fighting, I think. Changing the ruleset from what you train for is going to put you at a disadvantage, but a world-class athlete is still going to be incredibly skilled. For example, a regular BJJ black belt could probably take on a regular boxer pretty well, but I don't think I'd bet on them against Mike Tyson at his peak.


----------



## Tez3

WaterGal said:


> Was his TKD student an Olympic competitor?  If so, wow!  That's really astonishing.  If not.... I mean, I'm seriously not disparaging your skill at all, but I'm not talking about ordinary TKDists who do Olympic-style sparring.  I'm talking about the best in the world. It's the same with any type of sport fighting, I think. Changing the ruleset from what you train for is going to put you at a disadvantage, but a world-class athlete is still going to be incredibly skilled. For example, a regular BJJ black belt could probably take on a regular boxer pretty well, but I don't think I'd bet on them against Mike Tyson at his peak.




No, they competed for the Army in Tri service comps. the whole point of training with them, as asked by the instructor, was they knew no other way of sparring and wanted to be able to counter other techniques, they weren't used to people coming in close, they weren't used to being punched etc etc. It's wasn't amazing, it was a training session.
Which has nothing to do with the OP, which *is *about ordinary TKD being damaged by the Olympics, my point is that when ordinary people train TKD and do it the Olympic style it doesn't show TKD in a great light so yes to a certain extent the Olympics have damaged the ordinary TKD.
It's obvious that professional athletes are going to be better than 'ordinary' athletes but that wasn't my point.


----------



## Gnarlie

I think it really depends what else that person has been exposed to practising outside of the Olympic sparring format. The techniques outside of Olympic style sparring cover dealing with punches, kicks shoots etc in a pretty brutal and straightforward way; some clubs choose to solely focus on sport, and therefore those non-sport elements are perhaps weaker in practitioners at those clubs. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Olympic Taekwondo has damaged Taekwondo in general,  because the non-sport syllabus still exists and is fully practised at many clubs.

From an outsider's perspective, if all one sees is sport, one may reach the conclusion that sport is all there is.

This says a lot: in the last few years, I've been joining various group sessions, seminars and training outside of Taekwondo, for example Krav Maga, Boxing, BJJ, Karate and so on. In any of that, I have still yet to see a technique or principle that was completely new to me, one that I had not already been exposed to via Taekwondo. Sure, in the BJJ group there's more depth in the groundwork, but the basic principles were not new to me, I already had them from Taekwondo, and the same with the other groups. The style of practice differs, but the techniques and principles are similar.

I'm not comparing Taekwondo to those other ways, or saying that it is better. Just that there's more to TKD than sport, and time spent in the art brings exposure to plenty of that if one is willing to seek it out. It's not an art for people who want to be spoon fed.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Gnarlie said:


> There's a world of difference between the average BB and the Olympic level.





Tez3 said:


> However, just because there are TKD Olympians doesn't make TKD the only type of martial art that can kick peoples ****.





Gnarlie said:


> Absolutely, but the elite are just that - elite. Too much for little me. And way more than Olympic TKD detractors might realise.





Gnarlie said:


> I've had similar experiences trying to get at high level Krav and BJJers, too. Just too much experience, and no way through. You have had this experience too, right? Just someone who seems bullet proof at the time?





WaterGal said:


> Changing the ruleset from what you train for is going to put you at a disadvantage, but a world-class athlete is still going to be incredibly skilled. For example, a regular BJJ black belt could probably take on a regular boxer pretty well, but I don't think I'd bet on them against Mike Tyson at his peak.



Yeah, it doesn't really matter whether you're talking about TKD, Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, MMA, Wrestling, or Judo. Once you get to the people who are the best in the world, the gap between them and even the best amateur hobbyist is huge.

Consider the following hierarchy:

*Average martial art hobbyist:* Average degree of talent. Trains at whatever school is available locally, probably 3-6 hours per week.
*Dedicated martial art hobbyist:* Average talent. Might travel extra for a better school. Trains 8-12 hours per week, may supplement training with seminars, books, and videos.
*Serious professional*: Likely above average physical gifts. May relocate for preferred gym. May train 20-30 hours per week. Trains with higher intensity than most hobbyists.
*World-class professional/Olympic Athlete*: Extreme genetic gifts. Incredible work ethic. Trains full time (40+ hours per week)  with the best coaches, physical trainers, nutritionists, and sports doctors on the planet. Regularly competes against others at that same level.

Speaking as a dedicated hobbyist who has been training martial arts for 33 years, I am very aware of where I stand in comparison to the people at the top.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Gnarlie said:


> Sure, in the BJJ group there's more depth in the groundwork, but the basic principles were not new to me, I already had them from Taekwondo, and the same with the other groups.


 Okay, I'm curious. What basic groundwork principles did you learn in TKD?


----------



## Gnarlie

Tony, you have the kind of moderate and even handed approach I can only aspire to, and of course you are right. I'm firmly in the dedicated hobbyist block too.


----------



## Gnarlie

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I'm curious. What basic groundwork principles did you learn in TKD?


Initially: Breakfalling in all directions. Takedowns and counters. Escape and stand up. Quick.

Intermediate phase: Controlling a grounded opponent to a limb control post takedown from standing or kneeling. 

Later: Controlling a grounded opponent on the ground with them. Pins on the ground (informally and without much structure) and hierarchy of positions and typical counters, basic mount escapes and reversals, bridging, striking from your back and the mount. Dealing with a standing opponent from the ground and ways to cover up for multiple opponents. 


Not heavily emphasised in the testing syllabus, but definitely there at various seminars and training sessions. Enough to bring home and practice for tweaking next time. Basically practising control but with the aim of getting up and away if possible.


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## Tez3

The majority of our students are professional fighters both in their day jobs and their martial arts, both involve fighting for money  Their fitness and capacity for training is amazing.


----------



## Laplace_demon

I believe it has ruined the art, but it's partly General Chois fault. The KKW style was originally going to have a different name, but it was Choi who advocated to label it Tae kwon do as well.. If it were not for his instance, Taekwondo would never be associated with WTF,/KKW, since it would be named something else.


----------



## Gnarlie

Inter-faction backbiting and style bashing between martial artists who should have more restraint has done more to damage the reputation of Taekwondo than Olympic Taekwondo ever could.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> I believe it has ruined the art, but it's partly General Chois fault. The KKW style was originally going to have a different name, but it was Choi who advocated to label it Tae kwon do as well.. If it were not for his instance, Taekwondo would never be associated with WTF,/KKW, since it would be named something else.



You really need to brush up on your history if you want to avoid looking foolish. 
General Choi was ONE of the people who supported the name Taekwondo for the unified art. Not the only one. Nor is it documented who first suggested the name. 
But if anything was "as well", it would be the ITF, since the name was used first by the KTA. A couple decades before the KKW was founded, incidentally. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> You really need to brush up on your history if you want to avoid looking foolish.
> General Choi was ONE of the people who supported the name Taekwondo for the unified art. Not the only one. Nor is it documented who first suggested the name.
> But if anything was "as well", it would be the ITF, since the name was used first by the KTA. A couple decades before the KKW was founded, incidentally.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



Yes, he was one of them.  Am I not correct in that it was ruled with a majority of one vote?


----------



## ETinCYQX

EDIT: This thread really doesn't need my help.


----------



## Tez3

I don't really care who Gen. Choi is, I don't have any 'preference' for any 'style' of TKD but was enjoying an interesting discussion here. It's getting tedious that whenever TKD is being discussed, the same person comes on having a pop at certain 'styles' and certain personalities. Deja moo again...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Yes, he was one of them.  Am I not correct in that it was ruled with a majority of one vote?



Not that I know of. The records do not show how many votes were cast for what. Or at least, none that I've ever seen. If you have an actual voting history, please procide the source. 
Otherwise, this statement becomes just another in the category of "mythical father" claims.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Not that I know of. The records do not show how many votes were cast for what. Or at least, none that I've ever seen. If you have an actual voting history, please procide the source.
> Otherwise, this statement becomes just another in the category of "mythical father" claims.



You don't seem to know anything about TKD history. General Choi was the one who submitted the name Taekwon-do. There was at one point  voting over if the later known *WTF/KKW* would change it's name from Tae Soo Do name to TKD, and it won by a *one* vote margin. I have no interest digging through the archieve simply to educate an obnixous moderator.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't seem to know anything about TKD history. General Choi was the one who submitted the name Taekwon-do. There was at one point  voting over if the later known *WTF/KKW* would change it's name from Tae Soo Do name to TKD, and it won by a *one* vote margin. I have no interest digging through the archieve simply to educate an obnixous moderator.



So, this would be you admitting that you don't have any support for your claims. OK. Got it. Mythical father it is.
I have, in fact, spent a fair bit of time researching the history of TKD, including talking personally to people who were actually there.
And they disagree with your claims.
Doesn't mean you're wrong. Just means that you're going to need to provide some support for your claims, since they fly in the face of the history reported by the founders.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> So, this would be you admitting that you don't have any support for your claims. OK. Got it. Mythical father it is.
> I have, in fact, spent a fair bit of time researching the history of TKD, including talking personally to people who were actually there.
> And they disagree with your claims.
> Doesn't mean you're wrong. Just means that you're going to need to provide some support for your claims, since they fly in the face of the history reported by the founders.



Have I read what I just wrote, Yes. Does it count as a reliable account of history, I don't know.  I don't however see any reason to doubt it either. It was General Choi-neutral. At least they way I read it. And I don't have any interest to prove that I am not delusion by digging back my online history.

Are these masters you speak of, the same claiming that Sine Wave was an integral part of ITF Taekwon-Do in the late 60s? When we in fact have footage showing NO traces of Sine Wave even in early 70s (72). I don't neccesarily trust people who were apart of that era, simply by default. Rewriting history is not uncommon.


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't seem to know anything about TKD history. General Choi was the one who submitted the name Taekwon-do...



I'm afraid Dirty Dog is right, Laplace. The claim that General Choi invented the name is widely disputed outside ITF-circles. There's widespread acknowledgement that General Choi strongly advocated for the adoption of the name, but there's no hard evidence that he invented the name. In fact there are some folks who lived through that era who claim he did not invent the name at all, but even they do admit that - in any case - he at least _liked_ the name early-on and ran with it, promoting the adoption of that name among fellow kwan leaders.

So here's an analogy: suppose the lead singer of the band Fun! (Nate Reuss) joined the band Maroon 5, and then convinced the band to change their name to The Lemmings - whether he came up with the name or not. Now suppose The Lemmings perform on-stage for a couple years, and release a few albums, then Nate Reuss quits the band. Does Nate get to take the name of the band with him? Or does the band still get to call itself the Lemmings? I would argue: the *band's* name is the Lemmings, whether Nate is in the band or not. Nate needs to find himself a new name for his band.

By analogy, in 1965 when General Choi rejoined the Korea Tae Soo Do Association as its president, he convinced the KTA to rename itself to the Korea Taekwondo Association. Then in 1966 General Choi left the KTA to form the ITF. I think a person could make a reasonable argument that the name belongs to the KTA, not to General Choi personally. But I think a reasonable person could also argue that it really doesn't make any difference...taekwondo can have different styles, just like karate can have different styles. 

If you haven't read through this yet, you really should read it: Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki  Or at least read this: http://web.stanford.edu/group/Taekwondo/documents/tkd_history.pdf


----------



## Laplace_demon

I never claimed that Choi "invented" the name. What I did write was that he submitted it.


----------



## Laplace_demon

TrueJim said:


> I But I think a reasonable person could also argue that it really doesn't make any difference...taekwondo can have different styles, just like karate can have different styles.
> f



And the difference is not as big as some say. The issue however is not with the KKW, but their sparring format and Olympiad, which has moved away from TKDs roots so much that it has hurt the art. TKD is nowdays inevitably associated with the Olympics and flashyness.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> And the difference is not as big as some say.



That's the first thing you have ever said that I have agreed with. Achievement unlocked!



Laplace_demon said:


> The issue however is not with the KKW, but their sparring format and Olympiad, which has moved away from TKDs roots so much that it has hurt the art.



Damn. Back to disagreeing. Whether or not you view Shihap Kyorugi as being far removed from Taekwondo's roots depends on what you think it is actually for. If you think it is for fighting, then yes, far from the roots. If you think it is for promoting reaction and independent thinking, along with an appreciation of application of Taekwondo's principles in a dynamic situation, then no not so far from the roots.



Laplace_demon said:


> TKD is nowdays inevitably associated with the Olympics and flashyness.



I have no problem with that. I always enjoy being underestimated.


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> ...TKD is nowdays inevitably associated with the Olympics and flashyness.



And technically, one could argue that if everybody started to use the word "chair" to mean "table"...then _that's_ what a chair is: a table. If *most* people use the word _taekwondo_ to describe what they see at the Olympics, then one could argue that nowadays THAT is the main definition of taekwondo, and the way we - the minority here at Martial Talk - use the term..._our_ usage is the outlier, not the norm. It really depends on your point-of-view. If you're a person who's really into Olympic taekwondo, that is the definition of taekwondo (and as you say...those people outnumber the rest of us by a LOT).


----------



## Laplace_demon

Well yeah, most people don't even know about ITF. The thing is though, Olympic TKD really is Taekyon, not TKD. Even Aaron Cook readily admit it's all about kicking since punching may leave you exposed and it doesn't score as high.


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> Well yeah, most people don't even know about ITF.



Exactly right. So does a word have the meaning that's related to however most people actually use the word? Or does a word have the meaning of a comparatively small and unknown minority? Arguably, Olympic taekwondo is the "main" definition of taekwondo, and everything else is just a secondary meaning of the term. Like the way "kleenex" has come to primarily mean "tissue" in the U.S.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Well yeah, most people don't even know about ITF. The thing is though, Olympic TKD really is Taekyon, not TKD. Even Aaron Cook readily admit it's all about kicking since punching may leave you exposed and it doesn't score as high.



No, it's not. Nobody really knows what taekyon was, because it (like so much else) was suppressed during the Japanese occupation, and there are no surviving sources.
There is a man who has been declared a "national treasure" because he claims to know taekyon. I find his claims hard to believe, since in order for them to be true, he'd have been a master at the age of about 7.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Well yeah, most people don't even know about ITF. The thing is though, Olympic TKD really is Taekyon, not TKD.



It really isn't Taekkyon.


Laplace_demon said:


> Even Aaron Cook readily admit it's all about kicking since punching may leave you exposed and it doesn't score as high.



Really depends on when you punch. He scores with punches quite often, but his punching strategy aims to minimise vulnerability. You take him out of context.


----------



## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> No, it's not. Nobody really knows what taekyon was, because it (like so much else) was suppressed during the Japanese occupation, and there are no surviving sources. There is a man who has been declared a "national treasure" because he claims to know taekyon. I find his claims hard to believe, since in order for them to be true, he'd have been a master at the age of about 7.



One thing I wonder about...even if he does know taekyon (which I agree is debatable)...might there have been multiple _styles_ of taekyon in the past? So maybe this dancy bouncy little thing we call taekyon now wasn't a dominant style...assuming it was even a style at all.


----------



## Jaeimseu

TrueJim said:


> So here's an analogy: suppose the lead singer of the band Fun! (Nate Reuss) joined the band Maroon 5, and then convinced the band to change their name to The Lemmings - whether he came up with the name or not. Now suppose The Lemmings perform on-stage for a couple years, and release a few albums, then Nate Reuss quits the band. Does Nate get to take the name of the band with him? Or does the band still get to call itself the Lemmings? I would argue: the *band's* name is the Lemmings, whether Nate is in the band or not. Nate needs to find himself a new name for his band.[/URL]


It worked for Axl Rose. I believe he's still using the name Guns n Roses even though he's the only guy from the original band.


----------



## TrueJim

Jaeimseu said:


> It worked for Axl Rose. I believe he's still using the name Guns n Roses even though he's the only guy from the original band.



Touché! In that case though...wasn't it a matter of the _other_ band members (not Axl) leaving the band one-by-one, so that only Axl remained? In other words, Axl himself never left the band. I think if all the other kwans had left the KTA one-by-one so that only only General Choi's Oh Do Kwan remained, that would be a different story.


----------



## Jaeimseu

TrueJim said:


> Touché! In that case though...wasn't it a matter of the _other_ band members (not Axl) leaving the band one-by-one, so that only Axl remained? In other words, Axl himself never left the band. I think if all the other kwans had left the KTA one-by-one so that only only General Choi's Oh Do Kwan remained, that would be a different story.


Yeah, I think Axl was such a jerk that everyone else left. General Choi apparently wasn't at Axl's level. He must have annoyed people enough for them to ask him to go.


----------



## Laplace_demon

I don't dispute that Taekwondo has morphed into a new meaning for most people, given that ITF is so small in comparison. Taekwondo originally meant Korean Karate, and while I do like Karate it's not the reason for my preference, but rather my appreciation of martial arts and not sports. Anybody reading the opening post of this thread will understand why it's a sport.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't dispute that Taekwondo has morphed into a new meaning for most people, given that ITF is so small in comparison. Taekwondo originally meant Korean Karate, and while I do like Karate it's not the reason for my preference, but rather my appreciation of martial arts and not sports. Anybody reading the opening post of this thread will understand why it's a sport.



But, as has been pointed out repeatedly, taekwondo is _*not*_ a sport. It is a martial art, a limited subset of which is used in a sporting venue.


----------



## Laplace_demon

The WTF always refer to TKD as a *sport* (makes me want to puke). That was their goal from the get go and they have achieved it


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> Yeah, I think Axl was such a jerk that everyone else left. General Choi apparently wasn't at Axl's level. He must have annoyed people enough for them to ask him to go.



According to Rayners Academy:

_"After General Choi s second trip to North Korea, *personal calls were made per order of the Korean government to first generation instructors of  ITF dojangs. The  warnings  via the Korean embassies and consulates was  As long as you are under General Choi, you will be blacklisted and be blocked from ever entering South Korea again*.  Most ITF instructors with relatives and family back home relented to the South Korean government s pressure.  Many overseas  ITF instructors requested help from former colleagues in the U. S. to  sponsor
their immigration to the U. S. *as they left Gen. Choi s organization*. 

Opponents of ITF, mainly the WTF organizers seized the opportunity and branded Gen. Choi a traitor/communist and a subject of treason.* Until his death, Gen. Choi was not allowed into South Korea."*_

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy Section 2


----------



## Laplace_demon

Anyone attributing WTF/KKWs prominence to anything other than politics (wheter Choi brought it on himself is up for debate) is delusional.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Anyone attributing WTF/KKWs prominence to anything other than politics (wheter Choi brought it on himself is up for debate) is delusional.


There are many factors at play. Attributing everything to politics is also incorrect. At any rate, politics are everywhere, in every workplace and every organization. Politics are always a factor.


----------



## Laplace_demon

I dont't think popularity is always related to politics. Coca-Cola, Coca-Cola Zero and Pepsi are all equally available in most stores. People prefer the taste of Coca-Cola. Simple as that.

There is no equal playing ground for Chois TKD system. South Korea has 2 or 3 ITF dojangs. Go figure.

Put them equally available and we will see which one people prefer!


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I dont't think popularity is always related to politics. Coca-Cola, Coca-Cola Zero and Pepsi are all equally available in most stores. People prefer the taste of Coca-Cola. Simple as that.



You have proof of that of course? In a good many catering outlets only one or the other is available so there is no choice. It's down to contracts and advertising...oh and politics ( and in some countries bribes). So another analogy shot down in flames due to your lack of understanding how the real world works.
Coke or Pepsi As soda sales crash Pepsi s a better bet - The Washington Post


----------



## Laplace_demon

Or you don't understand the argument.It doesn't matter if Pepsi were to be more popular or if it's not equal in ALL countries. Only when there is equal accessability somewhere large enough will we know which one people truly prefer. 

South Koreas WTF has intentionally air brushed history, gotten rid of ITF up until fairly recently where one or two schools are operating in South Korea. It's a disgrace.


----------



## TrueJim

This gets back again to a point that we already discussed previously: up until 1988, South Korea was mostly run by harsh dictatorships. Unfortunately, that was the Korea that General Choi was stuck with. Personally, I suspect he would have much preferred to live in a modern-style democracy. It wasn't until 1988 though that South Korea finally switched to a modern democracy. So...yah, I don't think anybody would argue that _many_ of the things the dictatorial governments did were unjust. In fact, shutting down non-Kukki dojangs was one of the unjust things they did, but it probably pales in comparison to many of their other nefarious actions. To be outraged by the ousting of dojangs probably does a disservice to the victims of the government's far more serious excesses.

*History of South Korea - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia*

Rhee regained control of parliament in the 1954 elections, and thereupon pushed through an amendment to exempt himself from the eight-year term limit, and was once again re-elected in 1956. Soon after, Rhee's administration arrested members of the opposing party and executed the leader after accusing him of being a North Korean spy.

The administration became increasingly repressive while dominating the political arena, and in 1958, it sought to amend the National Security Law to tighten government control over all levels of administration, including the local units. These measures caused much outrage among the people, but despite public outcry, Rhee's administration rigged the March 15, 1960 presidential elections and won by a landslide.

*History of South Korea - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia*

...The National Assembly was dissolved and military officers replaced the civilian officials. In May 1961, the junta declared "Pledges of the Revolution": anticommunism was to be the nation's main policy...

I would conjecture that if the South Korean governments had not been dictatorships, we'd probably still see many different styles of taekwondo in South Korea. The agenda to wipe out all but Kukki-style taekwondo was the agenda of dictatorships.


----------



## Laplace_demon

I prefer to stick with the subject of martial arts and Tae Kwon Do in a forum and thread about it.


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> I prefer to stick with the subject of martial arts and Tae Kwon Do in a forum and thread about it.



Translation: If you guys are going to keep backing-up your arguments with facts and references, I'd prefer to change the subject!



> South Koreas WTF has intentionally air brushed history, gotten rid of ITF up until fairly recently where one or two schools are operating in South Korea. *It's a disgrace.*



Dude, you're the one who brought it up. It's like when you see a murderer who steals a car, and you say, "What?! He stole a car?! That's a disgrace!" The theft isn't the disgrace, the murder is.

That same things goes for old South Korea. Yah it really stinks that they shut-down non-Kukki dojangs, but that's the least of their excesses. You're outraged about the wrong thing.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Why should I be outraged and go to great leights over OFF TOPIC issues.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Or you don't understand the argument.It doesn't matter if Pepsi were to be more popular or if it's not equal in ALL countries. Only when there is equal accessability somewhere large enough will we know which one people truly prefer.
> 
> South Koreas WTF has intentionally air brushed history, gotten rid of ITF up until fairly recently where one or two schools are operating in South Korea. It's a disgrace.




I understand the argument better than you I'm afraid. You use odd ideas to try and prove what you are saying but it doesn't work, you need to actually cite your sources for a start. Saying randomly that people prefer one cola over another proves nothing and does nothing to help your argument then back tracking and saying it proves nothing is a waste of everyone's time and insulting peoples' intelligence.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> The WTF always refer to TKD as a *sport* (makes me want to puke). That was their goal from the get go and they have achieved it


Not surprising, given that the WTF is the governing body for sport Taekwondo.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> The WTF always refer to TKD as a *sport* (makes me want to puke). That was their goal from the get go and they have achieved it



The WTF is a regulatory agency tasked with overseeing TKD competition, specifically the type of competition that is done in the Olympic. So, duh... they supervise one portion of the sport side of TKD. 
That really doesn't change what TKD is...


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Anyone attributing WTF/KKWs prominence to anything other than politics (wheter Choi brought it on himself is up for debate) is delusional.


Anyone making such divisive statements has very little credibility.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I dont't think popularity is always related to politics. Coca-Cola, Coca-Cola Zero and Pepsi are all equally available in most stores. People prefer the taste of Coca-Cola. Simple as that.
> 
> There is no equal playing ground for Chois TKD system. South Korea has 2 or 3 ITF dojangs. Go figure.
> 
> Put them equally available and we will see which one people prefer!


They both had their time. One became more popular than the other.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Or you don't understand the argument.It doesn't matter if Pepsi were to be more popular or if it's not equal in ALL countries. Only when there is equal accessability somewhere large enough will we know which one people truly prefer.
> 
> South Koreas WTF has intentionally air brushed history, gotten rid of ITF up until fairly recently where one or two schools are operating in South Korea. It's a disgrace.



It's the real world. It's capitalism.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I prefer to stick with the subject of martial arts and Tae Kwon Do in a forum and thread about it.


So you don't understand what context means, then?


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Why should I be outraged and go to great leights over OFF TOPIC issues.


Context.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Why should I be outraged and go to great leights over OFF TOPIC issues.




I've no idea of 'great leights' are but it sounds fun. BTW you took it off topic...


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> The WTF is a regulatory
> That really doesn't change what TKD is...


Of course not. Anyone can vist a KKW dojang interested in the Olympics (that is the majority) and you will see that modern TKD and Olympics is one and the same. I did KKW myself. Didn't throw a single punch to targets.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> I've no idea of 'great leights' are but it sounds fun. BTW you took it off topic...



No I didn't.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> No I didn't.



*Pepsi anyone?*  or Irn Bru, it's made in Scotland from girders! absolutely lush, to make this truly off topic, here's the latest ad for it, yes it is shown on national television.


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> Anyone attributing WTF/KKWs prominence to anything other than politics (wheter Choi brought it on himself is up for debate) is delusional.



I think there are multiple factors, of which politics was one.

Most of the kwans kept with the KTA, and that fact alone gives any KTA-sponsored style a big boost right there.

Kukkiwon/WTF-style lends itself especially well to _sport_ competition, which makes it a popular choice for people who are looking for a sport (rather than a martial art _per se_), and especially for parents who are looking for a comparatively "non-violent" sport that their children/teens can do year-round. The more "martial" aspect of ITF-style may be a turn-off for people who aren't primarily interested in the self-defense aspects of taekwondo.


The ITF itself split into at least three pieces (or more, if you also count other splinters such as the GTF), and it's hard to maintain preeminence when you keep splitting up into smaller and smaller federations.
There's another way to look at this too: the South Korean dictatorships were able to shut-down the non-Kukki dojangs *in South Korea*...but only in South Korea. So the politics of the old South Korean dictatorships doesn't necessarily explain why Kukkiwon-style is so popular _outside_ of South Korea.


----------



## Laplace_demon

ITF was dominated by WTF torneys and KKW long before the split. ITF competitions are so small that they aren't even important enough to complain about. Very few watches or broadcasts them.

There are two things you can be assured of in this world: One:  A former WTF/KKW asserting that he had useless hands when starting to kickbox (Because of their sparring format dominating their entire training), and secondly: that few people know that there exist an ITF TKD alternative.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> There are two things you can be assured of in this world:



Yes, death and taxes.

Are you going to cite your sources for your statements?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Yes, death and taxes.
> 
> Are you going to cite your sources for your statements?



Online people, all saying the exact same thing about their experience of KKW, including myself. Their hands are non existent.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Online people, all saying the exact same thing about their experience of KKW, including myself. Their hands are non existent.



So, where on online?


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> ITF was dominated by WTF torneys and KKW long before the split.



So let me see if I follow your logic here. 

First, you assert as your thesis statement that Kukkiwon-style taekwondo is preeminent worldwide *for only one reason*: because of the *politics* of old South Korea dictatorships. You further assert that anyone who believes otherwise is *delusional*.


I provide three other considerations that also factor into the preeminence of Kukkiwon-style taekwondo. By definition, that alone would demonstrate that indeed: there are other factors besides just politics.


You however choose to debate only one of the three factors I listed, leaving the other two completely unaddressed.


I further point-out that the politics of old South Korea would have primarily affected the preeminence of Kukkiwon-style only _inside_ South Korea, not _outside_ South Korea, and you likewise don't address _that_ part of my argument. In fact, you even go on to point out that Kukkiwon-style taekwondo is preeminent even outside South Korea, thereby arguing against your own thesis statement!


But despite all those logical fallacies, you're _still_ sticking to your original claim that the preeminence is primarily due to politics, and as evidence of this, you point out (a) one athlete who found Kukkiwon-style relatively unhelpful when he switched to kickboxing (which is an irrelevant _non sequiter _to the question of what role politics played); and (b) you also point out that relatively few people know that ITF taekwondo is an alternative (which is itself tautological with part of your original thesis statement in the first place).
Not only have you failed to prove your first point (that the only reason for the preeminence is politics), you've failed miserably to prove your second point (that anyone who believes otherwise is *delusional*). If anything, you've shown that there are perfectly good, non-delusional reasons to believe that the preeminence of Kukkiwon-style takewondo is due to a combination of factors of which politics is just one.

I contend that calling people *delusional* for believing something that is perfectly valid and is likely even _true_ is both illogical and unnecessary. A more fair-minded approach would have been to ask the question, to what extent do we believe that politics are a contributing factor in the preeminence of Kukkiwon-style taekwondo? That, at least, would have been an interesting question.


----------



## Laplace_demon

WTF/KKW TKD also took over outside of South Korea is for the same reason - several places in the world simply don't have ITF dojangs nearby.  I cannot comment on why that is, but the end result means that it's functionally the same - KKW/WTF domination. I am rather fortunate in my country to have an ITF club nearby.

If they don't have it, then it's pretty hard to not pick KKW TKD instead of no TKD at all.. There are other  TKD styles as well with less than ideal reputation, but let's not go there...


----------



## Laplace_demon

Someone explained that it's related to being affiliated with North Korea. But that doesn't really makes sense given that A) ITF is not and has never been North Korean and B) ITF Headquarters are NOT in North Korea. Not now or before the split.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Anyone attributing WTF/KKWs prominence to anything other than politics (wheter Choi brought it on himself is up for debate) is delusional.



Acting as if the WTF and the KKW are synonymous is delusional.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Acting as if the WTF and the KKW are synonymous is delusional.



They are in *most* places. KKWS train and compete under WTF sparring rules. And the South Korean government supported WTF.


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> They are in *most* places. KKWS train and compete under WTF sparring rules. And the South Korean government supported WTF.



But Kukkiwon-style taekwondo includes _more_ than just tournament-style sparring. To demonstrate that fact, you don't even have to look any further than the Kukkiwon webpage itself. As just one example, check out this webpage:

World Taekwondo Headquarters

On that webpage, the Kukkiwon itself defines its style to include some types of joint locks, tripping and sweeping techniques, and grappling, none of which are incorporated into WTF-style tournament sparring. Kukkiwon-style schools (including the one I attend) incorporate self-defense into their curriculums, in addition to tournament sparring.

If anything, I would think it's more accurate to say that WTF-style sparring incorporates a _subset_ of the Kukkiwon-style curriculum, specifically the subset that focuses on kicking.


----------



## Laplace_demon

TrueJim said:


> But Kukkiwon-style taekwondo includes _more_ than just tournament-style sparring. To demonstrate that fact, you don't even have to look any further than the Kukkiwon webpage itself. As just one example, check out this webpage:
> 
> World Taekwondo Headquarters
> 
> On that webpage, the Kukkiwon itself defines its style to include some types of joint locks, tripping and sweeping techniques, and grappling, none of which are incorporated into WTF-style tournament sparring. Kukkiwon-style schools (including the one I attend) incorporate self-defense into their curriculums, in addition to tournament sparring.
> 
> If anything, I would think it's more accurate to say that WTF-style sparring incorporates a _subset_ of the Kukkiwon-style curriculum, specifically the subset that focuses on kicking.



Many would be surprised to know that there are KKW schools which employ ITF patterns with WTF sparring. The reason for this is the attraction of WTF competitions such as the Olympiad, while many masters actually much preferred Chois patterns. A perhaps small victory for the General


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> They are in *most* places.



Really? They are? You've determined this how, exactly?

A philosophy student, even if they're just an undergrad, ought to know that you need a reasonable sample size. So tell us, exactly how many KKW schools have you trained at for long enough to have determined that they are purely sport-oriented?

I'm going to guess the actual answer is zero.

Or is this something your mythical daddy told you and you're just parroting it?



Laplace_demon said:


> KKWS train and compete under WTF sparring rules. And the South Korean government supported WTF.



KKW schools do train under WTF rules. So do we. But in neither our, nor KKW schools in general, is there any reason to think that is ALL we train.

The South Korean government also supports the KKW. And lots of other groups.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? They are? You've determined this how, exactly?
> 
> A philosophy student, even if they're just an undergrad, ought to know that you need a reasonable sample size. So tell us, exactly how many KKW schools have you trained at for long enough to have determined that they are purely sport-oriented?
> .



How do I know that? Because they cheerish their  damn Olympics. I will never understand why. I can watch any martial art show, including Boxing, but I cannot sit through an entire WTF match.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> How do I know that? Because they cheerish their  damn Olympics. I will never understand why. I can watch any martial art show, including Boxing, but I cannot sit through an entire WTF match.



I notice (as I'm sure others do as well) that you didn't answer the question. So I'll assume that I was correct to surmise that the answer is either "none" or it's just something your mythical father said in one of your dreams.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> I notice (as I'm sure others do as well) that you didn't answer the question. So I'll assume that I was correct to surmise that the answer is either "none" or it's just something your mythical father said in one of your dreams.



Yes I did. Every single TKD guy I have ever talked to or read about online have done KKW with WTF sparring only. This is the norm.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Yes I did. Every single TKD guy I have ever talked to or read about online have done KKW with WTF sparring only. This is the norm.



There are up to 18 different types of sparring in the KKW range, many of which are still used at a lot of clubs. Most of them involve heavy use of hands and vital point targets all over the body.

As far as weak hands goes, we've already addressed that point in other threads, and you are wrong.

Regarding the ITF syllabus being more self defence oriented: also wrong. Outside of a few isolated techniques, there's nothing in the ITF training regimen that isn't also part of the KKW syllabus.

Frankly, you are not in a position to posit what 'the norm' is. What grade did you reach at this one KKW place you trained at?


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> How do I know that? Because they cheerish their  damn Olympics. I will never understand why. I can watch any martial art show, including Boxing, but I cannot sit through an entire WTF match.


What's not to understand? They set out to create a competition that would be unique in the MA world, which it is. They sought to use this competition as a vehicle to promote both Taekwondo and Korea worldwide, which they have done. For years they tried to get into the Olympic Games. The talk had been that ITF and WTF would have to unite to make it happen, yet eventually they succeeded in their goal. If you worked to accomplish a goal for 30+ years, you wouldn't cherish it?

Just because you don't happen to like watching a sport doesn't make it less valid or unworthy. I'm sure there are many Europeans who can't understand why Americans like American football.


----------



## K-man

Jaeimseu said:


> I'm sure there are many Europeans who can't understand why Americans like American football.


Don't limit that to Europeans!


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> What's not to understand? They set out to create a competition that would be unique in the MA world, which it is. They sought to use this competition as a vehicle to promote both Taekwondo and Korea worldwide, which they have done. For years they tried to get into the Olympic Games. The talk had been that ITF and WTF would have to unite to make it happen, yet eventually they succeeded in their goal. If you worked to accomplish a goal for 30+ years, you wouldn't cherish it?
> 
> Just because you don't happen to like watching a sport doesn't make it less valid or unworthy. I'm sure there are many Europeans who can't understand why Americans like American football.




They and a very small minority outside of TKD are the only ones.. People trash the sparring constantly. Watch any discussion board, comments for each clip, and it's 99% hatred towards WTF sparring. I don't think their Olympics is justified in light of this.

ITF is slightly more watchable, but only that.


----------



## Tez3

Actually as a non TKD person ( other than being a yellow belt) I've not seen anymore 'anti TKD sparring comments' than I see anti MMA or anti TMA. Most people take the opinion that it's none of their business what others do and therefore don't trash talk other styles. Those with agendas will bash other styles because to them their style is the 'best eva innit'.
It's you opinion about TKD you are talking about and that doesn't make it 995 of everyone's opinion. 
I think it's a shame that non martial arts people know TKD only from the Olympics ( but then they also only know most martial arts from films and television anyway, little of it is realistic) but their sparring doesn't bother me, I wouldn't do it now as I'm too old and stiff to kick high anymore. If I'd come across TKD when I was young perhaps I would have trained in instead of Wado, who knows. Wado is my first love, it suits me and I enjoy training it, doesn't mean any other style isn't as good for those training in it, just mean it's my preference. I like learning about other styles,, after all there's only so many ways a body can move. Other peoples 'experiences are important to learn from, arguments that are muddled, mistaken and can't be followed are just a waste of time and shows a disorganised mind and/or one with an agenda to blacken a fine martial art.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Although there have been some complaints about the grappling content of MMA and UFC in particular, it doesn't even approach the view of WTF sparring. The stand up striking of UFC is still appreciated.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Although there have been some complaints about the grappling content of MMA and UFC in particular, it doesn't even approach the view of WTF sparring. The stand up striking of UFC is still appreciated.


Opinions on internet message boards and forums would tell you that almost everything sucks. People are much more likely to post about things they don't like.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> Opinions on internet message boards and forums would tell you that almost everything sucks. People are much more likely to post about things they don't like.



Not really. I am quite surprised ITF sparring doesn't get the same bad rep. It looks very silly when the slightest use of excessive force is potentially prohibited. I really don't see the point of fighting at all, when you can barely do anything. It affects techniques which could never be displayed to the public because it would likely yield a full contact blow.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Although there have been some complaints about the grappling content of MMA and UFC in particular, it doesn't even approach the view of WTF sparring. The stand up striking of UFC is still appreciated.



What you read online is not necessarily representative of the global view...you gotta wake up to that.

If people hated it so much, it wouldn't be as massively popular as it is in terms of the number of participants.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> What you read online is not necessarily representative of the global view...you gotta wake up to that.
> 
> If people hated it so much, it wouldn't be as massively popular as it is in terms of the number of participants.



It's own practitioners are bound to like it.


----------



## Gnarlie

Yes, and they are the opinions that matter.


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> Yes, and they are the opinions that matter.




Exactly.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Yes, and they are the opinions that matter.



For WTF tournaments, yes. Olympics, NO.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> For WTF tournaments, yes. Olympics, NO.




So whose opinions matter when it comes to the Olympics? Various sports governing bodies put forward their sports for consideration, they get chosen or they don't. The rest of us have a choice we can watch those sports or not. I don't watch many Olympic sports because I'm not interested in them, it doesn't make them 'stupid' or 'silly' sports , it merely means I'm not interested in them. They will however be important to those in that sport. I love competing and watching dressage,  I do not like watching swimming of any type but that doesn't mean those swimmers have put maximum effort in and compete to the very best of their abilities which I do have respect for. Olympic TKD I can take or leave but I have total respect for the competitors who have given up a lot to represent their countries. I don't see why you have to disrespect people so much, if you don't like it, don't do it and don't watch it. Leave it to those who enjoy it.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> Yes I did. Every single TKD guy I have ever talked to or read about online have done KKW with WTF sparring only. This is the norm.



Well, no, this isn't true at all, since you've been told by many TKD people here (people with far more than your few months of experience) that this is not how they train.

Of course, your ability to ignore facts that go against your preconceived notions is as legendary as your father.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, no, this isn't true at all, since you've been told by many TKD people here (people with far more than your few months of experience) that this is not how they train.
> 
> Of course, your ability to ignore facts that go against your preconceived notions is as legendary as your father.



In case you didn't know it already,  I am referring to the freestyle sparring as being WTF only in most KKW schools. Asking what I trained is shooting yourself in the foot, since you asked for a large sample size.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> In case you didn't know it already,  I am referring to the freestyle sparring as being WTF only in most KKW schools. Asking what I trained is shooting yourself in the foot, since you asked for a large sample size.



But, again, it's simply not true. We use several different rulesets for freestyle sparring. And as has been mentioned (but you [shockingly!] ignored) the KKW itself lists a large number of different sparring methods.

As for "what you trained", it's simple. You made a claim about "most" KKW schools. In order for this claim to be valid, you would need to have data from >50% of KKW schools. And you would have to train there long enough to know their curriculum, because you, as a yellow belt with a few months training certainly do not know the full curriculum at your current school. You've said that you're attending a McDojo. Apparently, your college isn't any better.

So... how many KKW schools did you train at, for how long, and to what rank?

Or are you just making crap up as you go along?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Dirty Dog said:


> But, again, it's simply not true. We use several different rulesets for freestyle sparring. And as has been mentioned (but you [shockingly!] ignored) the KKW itself lists a large number of different sparring methods.
> 
> As for "what you trained", it's simple. You made a claim about "most" KKW schools. In order for this claim to be valid, you would need to have data from >50% of KKW schools. And you would have to train there long enough to know their curriculum, because you, as a yellow belt with a few months training certainly do not know the full curriculum at your current school. You've said that you're attending a McDojo. Apparently, your college isn't any better.
> 
> So... how many KKW schools did you train at, for how long, and to what rank?
> 
> Or are you just making crap up as you go along?



"We". You represent the majority of KKWs? Have you visited 50% of KKWS? Why on earth would I expect a KKW school with students eager for WTF torneys, to spar anything other than WTF rules? Just as I wouldn't expect ITF guys to waste time with muay thai sparring rules for ITF competitions. 

Some offer Kukikwon certificates while teaching ITF patterns and doing a hole bunch of unconventional things. It is not these schools that form the majority of what is known as WTF competitors training in KKW school.


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> Some offer Kukikwon certificates while teaching ITF patterns...



I assume that at those schools they learn the Kukkiwon patterns as well? I can't see how a person would get a Kukkiwon certificate without demonstrating the Kukkiwon patterns.


----------



## TrueJim

Laplace_demon said:


> "We". You represent the majority of KKWs? Have you visited 50% of KKWS?



You're committing a logical fallacy again. If you say that "most schools do X" then you have to sample most of the schools. If you say that "some schools do X" you only have to sample a few schools. 

Dirty Dog said that some schools use different rulesets, not that most schools use these rulesets.


----------



## Laplace_demon

TrueJim said:


> You're committing a logical fallacy again. If you say that "most schools do X" then you have to sample most of the schools. If you say that "some schools do X" you only have to sample a few schools.
> 
> Dirty Dog said that some schools use different rulesets, not that most schools use these rulesets.



ITF does not primarily train WTF contenders. They would have nowhere else to train seriously than in a *KKW* school. Up until very recently, ITF was not let in to the olympics. not that I think it matters that much in practice, aside from some countries like North Korea are nowdays allowed to compete.


----------



## Laplace_demon

That is, ITF schools don't train their sparring format. You see how easy it is?


----------



## Gnarlie

Those last two not make any kind of sense at all.


----------



## Laplace_demon

*ITF does not train WTF sparring*.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> *ITF does not train WTF sparring*.


Yes, and... what is your point?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Yes, and... what is your point?



WTF guys do WTF sparring at KKW and would not want to waste their time doing anything but WTF sparring since that's what they are going to compete in. This I submit is true for most schools, not all. Or else I would want someone to elaborate why they would train in two separate freestyle formats, when ITFers clearly don't. We base our freestyle sparring on uppcoming competitions.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> "We". You represent the majority of KKWs? Have you visited 50% of KKWS? Why on earth would I expect a KKW school with students eager for WTF torneys, to spar anything other than WTF rules? Just as I wouldn't expect ITF guys to waste time with muay thai sparring rules for ITF competitions.
> 
> Some offer Kukikwon certificates while teaching ITF patterns and doing a hole bunch of unconventional things. It is not these schools that form the majority of what is known as WTF competitors training in KKW school.



I'm not the one making claims about what "most" schools do. You are. You've done so in several different posts.

But, as usual, you cant provide any reason to think you know your rectum from a hole in the ground.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Laplace_demon said:


> WTF guys do WTF sparring at KKW and would not want to waste their time doing anything but WTF sparring since that's what they are going to compete in. This I submit is true for most schools, not all. Or else I would want someone to elaborate why they would train in two separate freestyle formats, when ITFers clearly don't. We base our freestyle sparring on uppcoming competitions.



We use at least 4 different freestyle formats. 
Because not everybody is as limited as you.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> WTF guys do WTF sparring at KKW and would not want to waste their time doing anything but WTF sparring since that's what they are going to compete in. This I submit is true for most schools, not all. Or else I would want someone to elaborate why they would train in two separate freestyle formats, when ITFers clearly don't. We base our freestyle sparring on uppcoming competitions.


WTF players focus on WTF sparring. However, the VAST majority of Kukkiwon students are not competitors, particularly serious competitors.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> WTF players focus on WTF sparring. However, the VAST majority of Kukkiwon students are not competitors, particularly serious competitors.



And I am not an ITF competitor. That doesn't mean that I don't have to abide by their sparring format in the dojang. I am obliged to train ITF sparring during class time.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> And I am not an ITF competitor. That doesn't mean that I don't have to abide by their sparring format in the dojang. I am obliged to train ITF sparring during class time.


If your school is competition focused, sure. Not all schools are.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> If your school is competition focused, sure. Not all schools are.



Only if you say so. I haven't heard of ITF affiliated schools in which no practitioner wish to compete in ITF.  The Olympics is a major attraction for obvious reasons and would be ten times more motivating for KKWs, which it also is.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Do you concider a school with sparring once a week (at most) to be competition oriented? That's my school.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Only if you say so. I haven't heard of ITF affiliated schools in which no practitioner wish to compete in ITF.  The Olympics is a major attraction for obvious reasons and would be ten times more motivating for KKWs, which it also is.


Dude, there are only like two slots for men and two for women every four years. The number of people seriously trying for the Olympic team is incredibly small.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> Dude, there are only like two slots for men and two for women every four years. The number of people seriously trying for the Olympic team is incredibly small.



That's certainly true. But I have just given you a fairly good case for how even the least sport oriented school still imposes competition sparring rules. I am not saying there are no KKW schools that offer alternatives, but to say that those schools are the majority....


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> That's certainly true. But I have just given you a fairly good case for how even the least sport oriented school still imposes competition sparring rules. I am not saying there are no KKW schools that offer alternatives, but to say that those schools are the majority....


I would expect that just about all KKW schools use WTF rules...some of the time. In my experience, there are very few "sport" schools. There's no money in it.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> I would expect that just about all KKW schools use WTF rules...some of the time. In my experience, there are *very few* "sport" schools. There's no money in it.



I must be dreaming  Who are we having an argument with if there does not exist a major TKD divide in the world between traditional and sport oriented? 

I know some schools that increase the level of contact and even includes additional free style sparring formats. I concider these schools unique, and that includes both the KKW and ITF.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> I must be dreaming  Who are we having an argument with if there does not exist a major TKD divide in the world between traditional and sport oriented?
> 
> I know some schools that increase the level of contact and even includes additional free style sparring formats. I concider these schools unique, and that includes both the KKW and ITF.


I'm sure you are reporting what you have seen, but how much have you seen? How much experience do you have outside your local area? My experience is in the US and in Korea. In both countries, my experience is that there are far more family or recreational taekwondo schools and relatively few hardcore sports schools. In Korea, there are high school and university programs for that.


----------



## Gnarlie

In the context of KKW, most countries make a differentiation between elite sport and non-elite sport Taekwondo.  Non-elite sport clubs are by FAR in the majority, and those schools feature different kinds of sparring in their syllabus, along with a more diverse range of targets and techniques.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> I'm sure you are reporting what you have seen, but how much have you seen? How much experience do you have outside your local area? My experience is in the US and in Korea. In both countries, my experience is that there are far more family or recreational taekwondo schools and relatively few hardcore sports schools. In Korea, there are high school and university programs for that.


 
But neither WTF or ITF are prominent in the US. Partly because the country is filled with of shoot organisations that are neither ITF or KKW. 

South Korea is not the strongest nation in WTF sparring either. I am not sure why that is, given that TKD is part of their school program.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> But neither WTF or ITF are prominent in the US. Partly because the country is filled with of shoot organisations that are neither ITF or KKW.
> 
> South Korea is not the strongest nation in WTF sparring either. I am not sure why that is, given that TKD is part of their school program.


For the elite of the elite, korea is not always the best, but if you took the top 50 or so players from each country I'm betting Korea would be pretty dominant.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> For the elite of the elite, korea is not always the best, but if you took the top 50 or so players from each country I'm betting Korea would be pretty dominant.



Nope. Mexiko, Turkey and Iran are some countries that have produced far more world class sparring competitiors. Taekwondo Data World s largest Taekwondo Database


----------



## Jaeimseu

Laplace_demon said:


> Nope. Mexiko, Turkey and Iran are some countries that have produced far more world class sparring competitiors. Taekwondo Data World s largest Taekwondo Database


I don't care what countries have won. The playing field at the elite level is fairly even. World class coaching and training can be found in many countries now. I'm talking about total athlete pools. There are tons of guys here in Korea that nobody's ever heard of that would dominate in lots of other countries.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't care what countries have won. The playing field at the elite level is fairly even. World class coaching and training can be found in many countries now. I'm talking about total athlete pools. There are tons of guys here in Korea that nobody's ever heard of that would dominate in lots of other countries.



Those nations can make the exact same claim. It's impossible to verify. If you go by procentages, then South Korea has more that train TKD outside of sports and would therefore win that battle on a probability estimation alone.

This is WTF sparring from 1989 and is much superior to what is seen today. It's in fact much better than ITF as well.






Too bad todays WTF look nothing like it.  They almost never kick to the head. Yet, within 20 seconds there is a head kick. The movements there are more true to real martial art than foot fencing as well.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> Those nations can make the exact same claim. It's impossible to verify. If you go by procentages, then South Korea has more that train TKD outside of sports and would therefore win that battle on a probability estimation alone.
> 
> This is WTF sparring from 1989 and is much superior to what is seen today. It's in fact much better than ITF as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad todays WTF look nothing like it.  They almost never kick to the head. Yet, within 20 seconds there is a head kick. The movements there are more true to real martial art than foot fencing as well.



The Brit in that video is Gary Hall, the Performance Director for British Taekwondo. I have trained with him and his colleagues and students. Now I train with Koreans at that same level as the Korean competitor in the video. Here's the thing: we can still kick like that, and we do in other contexts. Only the sport has changed. The rules and technology have driven the behavior in that arena. The basic kicking skills of the underlying martial art remain the same.


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> The Brit in that video is Gary Hall, the Performance Director for British Taekwondo. I have trained with him and his colleagues and students. Now I train with Koreans at that same level as the Korean competitor in the video. Here's the thing: we can still kick like that, and we do in other contexts. Only the sport has changed. The rules and technology have driven the behavior in that arena. The basic kicking skills of the underlying martial art remain the same.



I know you can.  These guys have tremendous skill level. Just saying that it's a shame what has happened to the rule sets. And I don't know why?? Even if there are detectors, why does that deter fighters from these more straight forward tactics - kicking to head, and just overall less playing around, foot fencing (which some competitors have no shame in calling it themselves)?  

I do question however if todays fighters truly are as great. Supposing that they never fight as directly as in the 80s, how could they ever get good at it?


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I know you can.  These guys have tremendous skill level. Just saying that it's a shame what has happened to the rule sets. And I don't know why?? Even if there are detectors, why does that deter fighters from these more straight forward tactics - kicking to head, and just overall less playing around, foot fencing (which some competitors have no shame in calling it themselves)?
> 
> I do question however if todays fighters truly are as great. Supposing that they never fight as directly as in the 80s, how could they ever get good at it?


Two main things: Elite level fighters have got better and better at stuffing the opponent's game. This has created a standoff that didn't exist in the 80's. Those fighters would get trounced on points these days, because those combinations just don't work at the elite level anymore, they get shut down with superior footwork and fast counters.

The other thing is, if you go to a local level tournament, these techniques and combos are still alive and well.

It's not that the players can no longer kick those combinations, it is that the counter and stuff game has got better, meaning that a conservative approach wins matches. There are more head kicks now than ever before, though, due to the massive points advantage they offer.

Additional thought: you still see those combos at the elite level when there is a mismatch. That's what we were seeing in the Gary Hall match; it was early in his career and he what somewhat outclassed. He went on to become a great fighter, coach and trainer, got a lot of respect for him. But on that occasion the skill gap allowed the korean to play and throw some pretty looking combos and counters.


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## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> Two main things: Elite level fighters have got better and better at stuffing the opponent's game. This has created a standoff that didn't exist in the 80's. Those fighters would get trounced on points these days, because those combinations just don't work at the elite level anymore, they get shut down with superior footwork and fast counters.
> 
> The other thing is, if you go to a local level tournament, these techniques and combos are still alive and well.
> 
> It's not that the players can no longer kick those combinations, it is that the counter and stuff game has got better, meaning that a conservative approach wins matches. There are more head kicks now than ever before, though, due to the massive points advantage they offer.



I have seen entire Team sparring matches between South Korea and some other top nation, and there were no head kicks thrown....

Which training method was implemented that reflects this superior usage of the legs as a defensive tool?


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I have seen entire Team sparring matches between South Korea and some other top nation, and there were no head kicks thrown....



Unlikely to be thrown when the points are relatively even. Why take the risk? But put a good player a few points behind, and they will head upstairs... 


Laplace_demon said:


> Which training method was implemented that reflects this superior usage of the legs as a defensive tool?



The competition rules only penalise certain types of conservative or negative play. It pays to play defensive and conservative unless you are behind. As we saw in London in 2012, that jamming cut kick wins matches. It stops the opponents combo and scores a point too. Why play anything else unless you need to? 

Not saying it's entertaining, but it is logical if you want to win.

When the electronic chestguard scoring is not used, and the fighters less skilled with footwork and counter, for example at local level, the game is very different.


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## Laplace_demon

But you didn't answer my question; Why is the footwork of todays elite superior to those in the 80s? What in their training methods in the dojangs changed? I assume the fighters of today aren't genetically superior, so something must have changed at the level of training.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> But you didn't answer my question; Why is the footwork of todays elite superior to those in the 80s? What in their training methods in the dojangs changed? I assume the fighters of today aren't genetically superior, so something must have changed at the level of training.


I sort of did, but I will clarify. 

Taekwondo is not static. Since the 80s and before, there have been many generations of fighters, each of which has analysed their opponent's play and developed technique and footwork to overcome the opponent. Each generation has gone on to become trainer or coach, and taught that technique to the new generation, and the cycle has repeated. New strategies, techniques and skills develop in the ring and feed back into the training all the time. 

We are looking at 35 years of scientific evolution of a sport since the 80s alone. Of course the game has changed. Of course the fighters are better. Of course they would trounce those 'old school' fighters on points, no question. 

Unfortunately for the entertainment factor, there's very little skill gap between top level players now, which creates the stand off and conservative play. The fighters have got better at conserving energy and maintaining a lead. That doesn't mean that they can't turn up the gas when they want to, but they won't risk head hunting when there is not a need to.

Up until a few years ago, the Koreans managed to stay a step ahead of every other nation with their technical development, but that's changed now that other nations have access to better fight  analysis and elite training facilities.


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## TrueJim

It could be what is done in training, but it could also be training _intensity_. I.e., modern athletes are doing the same things, just more of it. Body type could also be a factor. As the skill-level required to compete increases, only those with a specific body type are able to compete, which in turn drives up the skill-level required to compete even further. Also, modern sports diet could also be a factor.

How athletes are faster better stronger David Epstein at TED2014 TED Blog


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## Laplace_demon

2013 WTF World Taekwondo Championships Final Male -63kg - YouTube

So you really think either one of these guys would beat the best ones from the 80s? I am just a layman when it comes to WTF sparring, but they don't look very fast to me.


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## Laplace_demon

They just play around with their feet....


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> 2013 WTF World Taekwondo Championships Final Male -63kg - YouTube
> 
> So you really think either one of these guys would beat the best ones from the 80s? I am just a layman when it comes to WTF sparring, but they don't look very fast to me.



They are fast, believe me. Lee Dae Hoon is an absolute demon. Absolutely he would win.

It doesn't have to look fast to be fast. They are very good at anticipation and reading the other player.


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## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> They just play around with their feet....



No, they really don't. You need to participate in this more if you want to actually understand what is going on there.


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## Laplace_demon

I want back to the 80s. Everything was more entertaining, including WTF TKDoins!


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## TrueJim

Off topic, but...

In my opinion, a lot of sports were more entertaining in the past, when athletes weren't as fast and strong. I remember when tennis involved more volleys, and not so much scoring-on-the-serve. Much more fun to watch. Basketball of the past, same thing: more positioning and shooting, less dunking. In terms of entertainment value, I think some sports suffer when the athletes become _too_ good. That's one reason I like to watch college sports more than pro sports...it's not that the college players aren't good, but they aren't _so_ good that the sport becomes boring to watch.


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> I want back to the 80s. Everything was more entertaining, including WTF TKDoins!



And in the 80s they were wishing they were back in the 60s and in the 60s they were wishing they were back in the 40s.....it just goes on and on. The truth is that people look at the past with rose coloured glasses, everything seemed 'better' in the past, reality though is actually things are better now, memories deceive.
I've lived through 60 decades and I know for certain that things are better.


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## Tez3

TrueJim said:


> Off topic, but...
> 
> In my opinion, a lot of sports were more entertaining in the past, when athletes weren't as fast and strong. I remember when tennis involved more volleys, and not so much scoring-on-the-serve. Much more fun to watch. Basketball of the past, same thing: more positioning and shooting, less dunking. In terms of entertainment value, I think some sports suffer when the athletes become _too_ good. That's one reason I like to watch college sports more than pro sports...it's not that the college players aren't good, but they aren't _so_ good that the sport becomes boring to watch.




Well, you need to watch proper sports like rugby (league and union) cricket, polo and welly wanging!


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## Steve

Tez3 said:


> And in the 80s they were wishing they were back in the 60s and in the 60s they were wishing they were back in the 40s.....it just goes on and on. The truth is that people look at the past with rose coloured glasses, everything seemed 'better' in the past, reality though is actually things are better now, memories deceive.
> I've lived through *60 decades* and I know for certain that things are better.


 60 Decades????  Tez, you look wonderful for your age!


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## Laplace_demon

Well I love the 80s anyway but this seals it.


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## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Well I love the 80s anyway but this seals it.




I take it you weren't around then? I could give you a huge amount of reasons why the 80s weren't that good.


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## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> I take it you weren't around then? I could give you a huge amount of reasons why the 80s weren't that good.



Well the music pretty much sucked. Apart from Bowie maybe.


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## Gnarlie

TrueJim said:


> Off topic, but...
> 
> In my opinion, a lot of sports were more entertaining in the past, when athletes weren't as fast and strong. I remember when tennis involved more volleys, and not so much scoring-on-the-serve. Much more fun to watch. Basketball of the past, same thing: more positioning and shooting, less dunking. In terms of entertainment value, I think some sports suffer when the athletes become _too_ good. That's one reason I like to watch college sports more than pro sports...it's not that the college players aren't good, but they aren't _so_ good that the sport becomes boring to watch.



This is just it though. It's not off topic. It is bang on. The decline in entertainment value is what I would call Sampras Syndrome. It is boring to watch people win through conservative play.


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## Jaeimseu

I think there was every bit as much conservative play in the past, except in cases of talent gaps between players. One of the driving forces behind the rule changes was the lack of action in many matches. When "trembling shock" was needed to score, there was a lot of posturing and feinting and not always a lot of kicking. Final scores were lower and every point mattered. The slightest mistake could cost you a match or a KO. It wasn't always fun to watch unless you understood the intricacies of the game. 

I'll give you that the highlight vids from the 80s/90s are more entertaining.


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## Gnarlie

Jaeimseu said:


> I think there was every bit as much conservative play in the past, except in cases of talent gaps between players. One of the driving forces behind the rule changes was the lack of action in many matches. When "trembling shock" was needed to score, there was a lot of posturing and feinting and not always a lot of kicking. Final scores were lower and every point mattered. The slightest mistake could cost you a match or a KO. It wasn't always fun to watch unless you understood the intricacies of the game.
> 
> I'll give you that the highlight vids from the 80s/90s are more entertaining.



I agree, but the nature of what that conservative play is has changed.


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## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> I've lived through 60 decades and I know for certain that things are better


I only hope I'm still around after 600 years.


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## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> I only hope I'm still around after 600 years.




Yep, I am a brilliant martial artist, MMA judge, ref, corner fighter etc I can write books, I do Guiding and stacks of other things but damned if I can add up!


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## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> Yep, I am a brilliant martial artist, MMA judge, ref, corner fighter etc I can write books, I do Guiding and stacks of other things but damned if I can add up!


I can do vector calculus, matrix algebra and partial differential equations but I still have to count with my fingers.


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## Tez3

I have the number equivalent of dyslexia, can't remember telephone numbers or times tables, thank goodness for calculators. It's something that's understood now like dyslexia but way back for example in the 80s you had a very hard time at school because of this.


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## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> Yep, I am a brilliant martial artist, MMA judge, ref, corner fighter etc I can write books, I do Guiding and stacks of other things but damned if I can add up!



You'd think after 600 years a persons mathematical ability would be tip-top.

This gives me an idea for a Pratchett-esque horror story about a 600 year old vampire Guide leader with suspiciously superhuman martial skills. And terrible mental arithmetic.


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## Tez3

don't forget cats, I love cats


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## sinthetik_mistik

Judo and Boxing are also Olympic sports, but I haven't heard anyone bash on them. I'm really not clear on how the fact Taekwondo is an Olympic sport makes it any less formidable. I have seen a ton of Taekwondo one kick knockouts in both the Olympics and regular Taekwondo competitions. The people who got knocked out with one kick were wearing protective head gear. If someone can do a one kick knockout against someone who is wearing protective headgear, imagine what he could do to someone who isn't wearing any protective padding. He could damn near kill somebody! My dojang teaches both traditional Taekwondo as well as a little bit of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Krav Maga. But yeah, I don't understand why the fact that it is an Olympic sport is such a bad thing.


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## Steve

P


sinthetik_mistik said:


> Judo and Boxing are also Olympic sports, but I haven't heard anyone bash on them. I'm really not clear on how the fact Taekwondo is an Olympic sport makes it any less formidable. I have seen a ton of Taekwondo one kick knockouts in both the Olympics and regular Taekwondo competitions. The people who got knocked out with one kick were wearing protective head gear. If someone can do a one kick knockout against someone who is wearing protective headgear, imagine what he could do to someone who isn't wearing any protective padding. He could damn near kill somebody! My dojang teaches both traditional Taekwondo as well as a little bit of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Krav Maga. But yeah, I don't understand why the fact that it is an Olympic sport is such a bad thing.


lenty of people lamenting the death of judo because of the Olympics.


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## sinthetik_mistik

Steve said:


> P
> 
> lenty of people lamenting the death of judo because of the Olympics.[/QUOTEss





Steve said:


> P
> 
> lenty of people lamenting the death of judo because of the Olympics.


oh ok i didn't know that. I guess i've researched Taekwondo a lot more than Judo. I will say that Judo is a highly popular martial art in MMA, and Taekwondo is not


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## Dirty Dog

sinthetik_mistik said:


> oh ok i didn't know that. I guess i've researched Taekwondo a lot more than Judo. I will say that Judo is a highly popular martial art in MMA, and Taekwondo is not



I don't think that's really true. Lists of UFC competitors with TKD backgrounds have been posted in the past, and they're quite extensive.


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## sinthetik_mistik

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't think that's really true. Lists of UFC competitors with TKD backgrounds have been posted in the past, and they're quite extensive.


I knew that there were some UFC fighters who knew Taekwondo, such as Anderson Silva who actually wants to compete in the Olympics for Taekwondo, its just that most of the UFC fights I've seen have way more punches than kicks, (not saying there aren't kicks in UFC i have seen matches with quite a few kicks but overall i think the emphasis is way more on punching) I think one reason being that they are afraid that their leg is gonna get grabbed and then they'll get taken to the ground for a submission hold. that's where I think Taekwondo could really be helpful in UFC, because the kicks are so fast that they can't grapple the leg


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## sinthetik_mistik

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I knew that there were some UFC fighters who knew Taekwondo, such as Anderson Silva who actually wants to compete in the Olympics for Taekwondo, its just that most of the UFC fights I've seen have way more punches than kicks, (not saying there aren't kicks in UFC i have seen matches with quite a few kicks but overall i think the emphasis is way more on punching) I think one reason being that they are afraid that their leg is gonna get grabbed and then they'll get taken to the ground for a submission hold. that's where I think Taekwondo could really be helpful in UFC, because the kicks are so fast that they can't grapple the leg


if people don't agree with me about people in UFC being scared to kick because they don't want to be taken down for a submission grab at the end of one fight Rampage Jackson explicitly stated that he hardly threw any kicks because he was scared of getting taken down.


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## Dirty Dog

sinthetik_mistik said:


> if people don't agree with me about people in UFC being scared to kick because they don't want to be taken down for a submission grab at the end of one fight Rampage Jackson explicitly stated that he hardly threw any kicks because he was scared of getting taken down.



That's his personal view, not the view of the UFC in general. Good kickers kick. Good punchers punch. Good grapplers...
Everybody plays to their own strengths and to their opponents weaknesses. That's pretty basic.

There are certainly plenty of examples of good kickers winning by... kicking. Here are a few.


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## sinthetik_mistik

Dirty Dog said:


> That's his personal view, not the view of the UFC in general. Good kickers kick. Good punchers punch. Good grapplers...
> Everybody plays to their own strengths and to their opponents weaknesses. That's pretty basic.
> 
> There are certainly plenty of examples of good kickers winning by... kicking. Here are a few.





Dirty Dog said:


> That's his personal view, not the view of the UFC in general. Good kickers kick. Good punchers punch. Good grapplers...
> Everybody plays to their own strengths and to their opponents weaknesses. That's pretty basic.
> 
> There are certainly plenty of examples of good kickers winning by... kicking. Here are a few.


I've actually seen that video, its an awesome video thanks. I don't know i must be  watching the wrong UFC fights... I see fights with a significant amount of kicking but like 80 percent of the fights I've seen rely heavily on boxing and of course takedowns. maybe i'm wrong? like i said maybe i've just seen the wrong fights. i remember that epic match between Forrest Griffin and Stephen Bonnar where they bashed each others skulls in maybe they used kicks i can't remember i haven't seen that fight in over a decade but Stephen Bonnar has a black belt in Taekwondo i don't see why he didn't take a step back and deliver a kick to the side of Forrest's face maybe if he did that he would have won the fight. maybe i'm just rambling idk


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## sinthetik_mistik

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I've actually seen that video, its an awesome video thanks. I don't know i must be  watching the wrong UFC fights... I see fights with a significant amount of kicking but like 80 percent of the fights I've seen rely heavily on boxing and of course takedowns. maybe i'm wrong? like i said maybe i've just seen the wrong fights. i remember that epic match between Forrest Griffin and Stephen Bonnar where they bashed each others skulls in maybe they used kicks i can't remember i haven't seen that fight in over a decade but Stephen Bonnar has a black belt in Taekwondo i don't see why he didn't take a step back and deliver a kick to the side of Forrest's face maybe if he did that he would have won the fight. maybe i'm just rambling idk


and also in terms of UFC people kicking, even if they do throw kicks, are they Taekwondo kicks? I don't think so. The majority of the kicks I have seen on UFC are either Muay Thai or Kickboxing. So even if people on UFC have black belts in Taekwondo, I haven't really seen it used in the sport. I think this might be due to prejudice against TKD, people think it isn't that fierce of a martial art, an assertion that I strongly disagree with. I have seen more one kick knockouts on Taekwondo matches than any other martial art including UFC. idk maybe once in a while someone throws a TKD kick in UFC but I can't really remember seeing any... but i think there may be a few, but way way less than Muay Thai or Kickboxing


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## sinthetik_mistik

sinthetik_mistik said:


> and also in terms of UFC people kicking, even if they do throw kicks, are they Taekwondo kicks? I don't think so. The majority of the kicks I have seen on UFC are either Muay Thai or Kickboxing. So even if people on UFC have black belts in Taekwondo, I haven't really seen it used in the sport. I think this might be due to prejudice against TKD, people think it isn't that fierce of a martial art, an assertion that I strongly disagree with. I have seen more one kick knockouts on Taekwondo matches than any other martial art including UFC. idk maybe once in a while someone throws a TKD kick in UFC but I can't really remember seeing any... but i think there may be a few, but way way less than Muay Thai or Kickboxing


ok i correct myself i watched that video again and yes some of those kicks looked like TKD. but that's 8 knockouts in UFC history, and UFC has had about 324 fights, so I'm still not convinced that TKD is a martial art that a lot of UFC fighters use much


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## Dirty Dog

sinthetik_mistik said:


> ok i correct myself i watched that video again and yes some of those kicks looked like TKD. but that's 8 knockouts in UFC history, and UFC has had about 324 fights, so I'm still not convinced that TKD is a martial art that a lot of UFC fighters use much



You didn't pay much attention, then. Mirko Cro Cops career is described (in that video) as 'one one-kick knockout after another'.
And since the title of the clip is "*Ultimate* 8 [...]", it's not rocket science to figure out that there are more than eight to choose from.


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## sinthetik_mistik

Dirty Dog said:


> You didn't pay much attention, then. Mirko Cro Cops career is described (in that video) as 'one one-kick knockout after another'.
> And since the title of the clip is "*Ultimate* 8 [...]", it's not rocket science to figure out that there are more than eight to choose from.


wasn't trying to offend you my bad


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## Steve

Anyone watch the UFC Fight Night the other evening?  Stephen Thompson really brought this thread to mind.  I did a little google-fu and it doesn't look like he's a TKD guy.   But, if you can check out video of the fight, I think you'll agree with me that his stand up style is very reminiscent of Olympic style TKD.  Even his hands were low.

If there was any question that this _style_ of fighting would work in the UFC, we've seen it.  And this was against Jake Ellenburger, who is a seasoned, skilled veteran.


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## Drose427

Steve said:


> Anyone watch the UFC Fight Night the other evening?  Stephen Thompson really brought this thread to mind.  I did a little google-fu and it doesn't look like he's a TKD guy.   But, if you can check out video of the fight, I think you'll agree with me that his stand up style is very reminiscent of Olympic style TKD.  Even his hands were low.
> 
> If there was any question that this _style_ of fighting would work in the UFC, we've seen it.  And this was against Jake Ellenburger, who is a seasoned, skilled veteran.



If you have good movement and instincts you can get away with a loose guard, thompsons a shining example.

IT was definitely TMA style sparring, very reminiscent of Kukki-TKD

It was hilarious too cause ellenberger made quite a few cracks at thompson for training in Karate....Then got Ko'ed by it HARD

He took quite a few nasty kicks


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## Steve

Caught him with a few hard punches to the nose, as well.


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