# Any Seido? If so, say so!



## jim777 (Oct 19, 2007)

I've signed up a group of my co-workers for a free class for next Wednesday at the school on 23rd St. in Manhattan. I believe it is 'the dojo' of the world headquarters. They are running an intro special for new students that's $100 for 100 days. I'm already planning to join full time after the 100 days are over, but we're taking advantage of the intro price (why not?). I'm taking TKD at home in South Jersey Mon/Fri, but I've infected all my coworkers with the desire to learn a Martial Art and this school is perfect for us so this is the one. 

Anyone else practicing this Kyokushin offshoot, or going to the big dojo on 23rd St?

jim


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## jim777 (Oct 25, 2007)

Great school with a great vibe. It's the personal dojo of the style's founder, 9th Dan Kaicho Nakamura sensei, so it has a relaxed but hyper serious vibe at the same time. I would definitely recommend anyone in the NYC area checking the school out.


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## amyj (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi!  I just got my shodan in Seido last week - my school has changed styles from Kyokushin to Seido in the last year.  I haven't been to Honbu yet (where you're talking about), and since I'm in Austin, TX, probably won't until the next Black Belt training (which I think is in June), but it's a great style, and from his books, Kaicho Nakumara is a truly amazing man.  Have fun!


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 27, 2007)

Sorry but I have never heard of this system could one of you please tell me more about it 
what are the differences between Kyokushin and Sedio?  Why did  Kaicho Nakamura break away from his original organisation and was he a 9th dan befor breaking away
thanks for any information


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## jim777 (Oct 27, 2007)

I just joined the school, and Amy is Shodan, so she can speak to more of the differences that I could possibly at this point. I believe in Kyokushin you start sparring at white belt, and in Seido you start sparring at green (white/blue/yellow/green/brown/black) for starters though.

My understanding is that Kaicho Nakamura Sensei had been 7th Dan for a while when Mas Oyama picked him to open the first Kyokushin Dojo in the US, and that was in '66. It's also my belief that in more than a few systems the difference between the very top Dan levels is often based on what you've done to further the art so it's entirely possible he was 9th Dan Kyokushin when he founded Seido in '76.


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## amyj (Oct 28, 2007)

Jim is right, with Seido you don't start sparring until green belt, though there are pre-sparring drills before then.  You just don't start free sparring.  
I'm actually new to Seido despite having a shodan in it - this year, my school transistioned from Kyokushin to Seido.  We weren't part of any of the Kyokushin organizations, though, so it's hard to tell from where I sit how "pure" Kyokushin we were.  Since the styles are so similar, though, I was able to get my shodan in about 8 months in Seido (I already had shodan in Kyokushin).

Kaicho Nakamura actually created the Kyokushin belt system back when he was studying under Mas Oyama.  I recommend his book, _The Human Face of Karate_, if you're interested in why he decided to leave, and also just to learn more about him.

In my school, we didn't start sparring until blue belt (second belt level), but even then we never really got much training in how to spar, we just were supposed to apply our kihon to kumite - which worked to a point, but I'm really loving the kumite drills that Seido has.  We also never participated in "knock down tournaments" (or tournaments at all, for that matter - we're not a competitive school), but that's something that Seido doesn't have that Kyokushin does.  Kaicho Nakamura was concerned about the injury rate (justifiably, I think).

Other differences - again, keeping in mind that we weren't part of a Kyokushin organization - there's a lot more emphasis on using the entire body for techniques, with the utilization of torque and twisting.  There are also a lot more formalized drills.

The attitude is a big difference - again, read _The Human Face of Karate_ to get it straight from Kaicho Nakamura's mouth, but he's is a lot more interested in making karate accessible to everyone, and to using it as a tool to a better life, than Mas Oyama was.  

Also, organizationally, I think Kaicho was concerned with how Kyokushin was spreading without a lot of direct contact with Mas Oyama, so he's put a lot of effort into making sure that Seido schools have plenty of contact with Honbu, and he's taken steps to be sure that Seido will continue once he's gone (Mas Oyama didn't leave a clear successor, which is why there are several Kyokushin organizations out there).   

I was lucky to be able to test for shodan at my school, since our school is allied with Thousand Waves in Chicago, which is co-run by Jun Shihan  Nancy Lanoue (6th Dan), who is qualified to bestow the rank of shodan.  For future tests, though, I'll have to go to the Honbu in NYC.

I love Seido and recommend it highly - feel free to ask me any other questions.


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## Martin h (Nov 4, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> Sorry but I have never heard of this system could one of you please tell me more about it
> what are the differences between Kyokushin and Sedio?  Why did  Kaicho Nakamura break away from his original organization and was he a 9th dan before breaking away
> thanks for any information



Seido juku was created by kyokushin legend Tadashi Nakamura, one of the 3 men who was sent by Kyokushin to thailand in 1964 for the famous kyokushin vs Muaythai challenge, when thaiboxing sent a official challenge to japanese karate and Kyokushin answered.
He was also very influential on the formation of the early kyokushin, and was for a long time regarded as the heir apparent to Oyama in kyokushin.

Nakamura was sent to USA as kyokushin head instructor there in the 70ies, and left kyokushin (or was thrown out depending on who you ask) in 1976 when he was 7th dan (a grade he received in 1975), founding Seido juku the same year. The less said about the split the better, lets just say that there are many different takes on what happened, and each take tend to favor the teller.
basically it was a bad period in kyokushin with lots of bad stuff and political infighting going on.


Technically Seido juku is more or less identical to oldschool kyokushin, with very few differences that is not purely cosmetic. More or less the same kata, more or less the same techniques done more or less the same way.
Knockdown and full contact training is not done in seido as it is in kyokushin. It IS done, but more depending on the individual dojo than as united sparring form for the style.
Nakamura today has become very influenced by zen Buddhism, and much of it slips into the style. Lots of meditation and so on. He is no longer the fanatic fighter he was when he was sent to thailand and knocked out a champion thaiboxer under thaiboxing rules to prove the worth of karate as a fighing art.

All in all a good style, even if I, as a kyokushin guy, dislike the dropped focus on knockdown/full contact and increased focus on philosophical  aspects.


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## jim777 (Nov 6, 2007)

A number of your dates are incorrect. The Thai boxing matches were in '62, not '64. According to Nakamura sensei himself, he received his 7th Dan in Kyokushin while he was head instructor at the Kyokushin Honbu in Tokyo, prior to being sent to the US by Oyama in '66.


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## Omar B (Nov 9, 2007)

Seido was my first style as a child!  Loved it, started at 5 and kept going till I was 16.  I broke my knee at 16 and could not return to Seido though.  The kicking with the snapping out of the knees hurt me like all hell even after recovery.  Then I discovered Choi Kwang Do, it's a style that's more circular, no snapping of the gi or the joints beneath.  Very fluid, less rigid.

After my family picked up and moved to NYC now I can't even have a CKD dojang anymore!  In any case, Seido is awesome but the very rigid movments and the way a lot of the striking power comes not from the whole body but from just the joints involved really don't work well for me anymore.


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## Seidogirl (Dec 4, 2007)

I practice Seido and have for 2 years now.  I am a green belt.  This was my first MA and so I had nothing to compare it to, but I was lucky as I live right nearby the dojo and just wandered in one day.  I'm having a great time and I've met some wonderful people.   I just started taking the Filipino Martial arts which are more fluid and don't have the set patterns and katas that karate has and I'm finding I like that too.  I'm going to stick with both because they seem to compliment each other but I would advise anyone who is interested in MA to start out with one and get a good foundation in it and then maybe try some others.  

I also think Seido is a great style because the various dojos all feel very connected.  There was a huge worldwide tournament in NYC last year where Seido practioners from all over the world came to compete.  I was a blue belt then and it was my first MA tournament ever and it was an amazing experience.  I highly recommend checking Seido out.


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## Omar B (Dec 4, 2007)

Good times, love Seido but I spent so many years in the style as a kid that I want to branch out (plus the messy knee).  Plus, Seido in NY is expensive!


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## jim777 (Dec 7, 2007)

Hey Seidogirl, do you go to the Honbu on 23rd St, or a school in Jersey?


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## Seidogirl (Dec 8, 2007)

jim777 said:


> Hey Seidogirl, do you go to the Honbu on 23rd St, or a school in Jersey?


 
I go to a school in Jersey.


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## Martin h (Jan 13, 2008)

jim777 said:


> A number of your dates are incorrect. The Thai boxing matches were in '62, not '64. According to Nakamura sensei himself, he received his 7th Dan in Kyokushin while he was head instructor at the Kyokushin Honbu in Tokyo, prior to being sent to the US by Oyama in '66.



As for the thaiboxing challenge. No I am not wrong. The challenge from thailand was made in 1963, and the actual event took place February 12 1964.
There has been some confusion bout these dates, and sometimes people has claimed that they took place anywhere from 1961 to 1965. But the dates Ive given are the correct ones.
Atleast according to the documentary about the event created by Kenji Kurosaki (another of the 3 kyokushin fighters) in the 90ies.

As for the date of Nakamura receiving the 7th Dan. I will not say that he is wrong, but the year cited to me by people who was highly placed in kyokushin back then is 1975.


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## jim777 (Jan 13, 2008)

Martin h said:


> As for the thaiboxing challenge. No I am not wrong. The challenge from thailand was made in 1963, and the actual event took place February 12 1964.
> There has been some confusion bout these dates, and sometimes people has claimed that they took place anywhere from 1961 to 1965. But the dates Ive given are the correct ones.
> Atleast according to the documentary about the event created by Kenji Kurosaki (another of the 3 kyokushin fighters) in the 90ies.
> 
> As for the date of Nakamura receiving the 7th Dan. I will not say that he is wrong, but the year cited to me by people who was highly placed in kyokushin back then is 1975.



Again, Nakamura puts the competition as starting on the 17th, so I guess there's no point in arguing dates. Nakamura designed the belt ranking system in Kyokushin, so I 'd rather not argue that either, to be honest. Kyokushin is a lot different now than it was in the 70's, during the last few years of Oyama Kancho's life anyway.

Are you Kyokushinkai yourself, and if so, where do you train? Is the US Honbu still on 14th St in NYC?


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## Martin h (Jan 13, 2008)

jim777 said:


> Again, Nakamura puts the competition as starting on the 17th, so I guess there's no point in arguing dates.



where has he said this?
It is annoying that they cant get their dates sorted out :-(



> Are you Kyokushinkai yourself, and if so, where do you train? Is the US Honbu still on 14th St in NYC?




Yes, Im kyokushin (shin-kyokushin to be exact) but I dont really know where the US hombu is, since I live in sweden.
And since kyokushin is splintered into several groups nowdays, i is also a question of WHICH US hombu. IKO1, IKO2/WKO, IKO3, IKO4, Kyokushin-kan, kyokushin union or one of the other many smaller groups.
But I assume you are talking about the IKO1 one, run by [SIZE=-1]Yuzo Goda Shihan[/SIZE], which has been the major dojo in NY for decades. In which case I have not heard anything about them moving, but since Im not affiliated ti them my info is limited.
their webpage is http://home.kyokushinkarate.com/


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## jim777 (Jan 13, 2008)

Martin h said:


> where has he said this?
> It is annoying that they cant get their dates sorted out :-(


 
It's in his book, "The Human Face of Karate", specifically on page 66. You should check out the book, there's a ton of stuff in it about Kyokushin in the late 50's-early 60's period. And though I didn't mention it earlier, there's also a discussion of Kurasaki Sensei and how he had to quit the Kyokushinkai after losing his bout in Thailand. Nakamura speaks very, very highly of Kurasaki in his book. Kurasaki Sensei started up a now famous kick boxing gym in Tokyo, Meijiro Gym, and went on to fight in Japan under the name Noboru Osawa. 



> Yes, Im kyokushin (shin-kyokushin to be exact) but I dont really know where the US hombu is, since I live in sweden.
> And since kyokushin is splintered into several groups nowdays, i is also a question of WHICH US hombu. IKO1, IKO2/WKO, IKO3, IKO4, Kyokushin-kan, kyokushin union or one of the other many smaller groups.
> But I assume you are talking about the IKO1 one, run by [SIZE=-1]Yuzo Goda Shihan[/SIZE], which has been the major dojo in NY for decades. In which case I have not heard anything about them moving, but since Im not affiliated ti them my info is limited.
> their webpage is http://home.kyokushinkarate.com/


 
Ah, ok. I foolishly assumed you were in the US, possibly in New York. You should still check out Nakamura's book. All the Seido folks get it and read it, so there should be used copies on Amazon and eBay and other places.

jim


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## Martin h (Jan 14, 2008)

jim777 said:


> nd though I didn't mention it earlier, there's also a discussion of Kurasaki Sensei and how he had to quit the Kyokushinkai after losing his bout in Thailand.



Again, I don't want to contradict Nakamura Shihan, But Kurosaki stayed in kyokushin over 10 years after the Thai Challenge (no matter which of our dates is correct). He left Kyokushin in 1975 when he felt that Kyokushin was expanding too fast -he wanted a small organization for elite fighters only. Not a large  organization with a broad "hobby practitioner" base, and a small cadre of elite fighters at the top. 
Up until then he had been the #2 man in the kyokushin leadership, running his Gym in Mejiro (mejiro is a district in tokyo, so that is where the "mejiro gym" name comes from) separately from his kyokushin obligations. 
He didn't have to quit kyokushin after the loss in Thailand, or because of it.


The "Human face of karate" book has been om my "to get" list for years. I just have not gotten around to it yet (it is a long list).


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## jim777 (Jan 14, 2008)

You should get the book


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