# lets talk herbs



## prairiemantis (May 28, 2009)

ok so dit da jow, and dit da jui a world of mystery.
let us talk about how they are used and how not to use them.

ill start.  a lot of dit da jow formulas had cinnabar listed. cinnabar is raw mercury ore.  should it be used? or should we look at what we now know of murcury and not include it in the formula. i long for an educated thought on this.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 28, 2009)

> ill start. a lot of dit da jow formulas had cinnabar listed. cinnabar is raw mercury ore. should it be used?


 
It doesn't have to be used. Cinnabar,Mercury have long been used in Chinese medical practices. We know now that there are better herbs such as Dragon's blood(Xue Jie*Draconis Sanguis*) And Alcohol to be absorbed thru the skin.



> or should we look at what we now know of murcury and not include it in the formula. i long for an educated thought on this.





> The estimated lethal dose of methyl mercury for a 70 kg (154 lb) person ranges from 20 to 60 mg per kilogram of body weight





> The lethal concentration for dogs in 20 - 50 mg/m3, after daily eight hour exposures


 
Chinese medicine formulas can range the amount of Cinnabar in it. 
Also note in Chinese medicine a toxic herb is used but the toxicity is canceled out by another herb. 
My advice is to avoid taking formulas with Cinnabar as their are safer,effective alternatives to it.


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## prairiemantis (May 28, 2009)

kinda the way i see it. 
why use something today that we know is not really good, so many things can replace  or substitute. you mentioned dragons blood, very good stuff along with frankincense and myrrh  , noto-ginseng and safflower which can act as a base to many good formulas all safe to use


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## DaleDugas (May 28, 2009)

No reason at all in the least to include that kind of toxin into your body.

There are some herbs that are toxic but are not mercury.

Xi Xin is toxic to the kidneys when taken internally but it used more externally without much trouble for pain.  You find it in some of the more chronic dit da jow formulations.

Bai Hua She is a pit viper and again slightly toxic internally but not externally.  Used for wind(tremors) and arthritis and rheumatism.  Used in certain high level iron palm formulations.

I say leave the cinnabar to the books and never use it.


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## Xue Sheng (May 28, 2009)

But... but cinnabar did wonders for Qin Shi Huangdi 

And by wonders I mean drove him crazy and killed him off young... where many Assassins failed cinnabar succeeded
.

I'd avoid the cinnabar

Thank You and good night :bangahead:


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## clfsean (May 28, 2009)

Only thing I ever use cinnabar for is in Lion Dotting ceremonies... public ones anyway. The ASPCA & most "gentility" would loose their lunch if we used a chicken...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 28, 2009)

Xue does your wife know if any Cinnabar(Zhu Sha &#26417;&#30722recipes are used still in China? I am pretty sure its use is illegal in the states.


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## prairiemantis (May 29, 2009)

wow this topic took off! fantastic. so cinnabar is out id say that is the consensus. 
does anyone have any thoughts on the "power strength wines" that people sell for way too much money? 
i like to use ginseng-lu rong( deer antler)- and jujube dates as base a tonic (maybe a little mahuang) , this is a personal fav. of mine,seems to increase tolerance in the boby for training.

also i like a wine  made from lyccii - schizandra- licorice and dong gui. as a very good blood tonic. seems to get the body feeling healthy.

any  wines any one wants to talk about or share.


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## Xue Sheng (May 29, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Xue does your wife know if any Cinnabar(Zhu Sha &#26417;&#30722recipes are used still in China? I am pretty sure its use is illegal in the states.


 
I will have to check and get back to you.


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## prairiemantis (May 30, 2009)

id be surprised if it ( cinnabar) was actually illegal, but i have not stopped to look it up either.


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## tellner (May 30, 2009)

JCA, I really don't care if it's been used for 10,000 years and has the Seal of Approval of Xin Shihuangdi. Mercury is bad stuff. It accumulates in the body. It destroys your central nervous system, causes birth defects and if used long enough will kill you dead. 

There are some worthwhile things in traditional medicine including the Chinese version. But the fact that something's "traditional" is not a reason to do it in the face of clear, proven evidence that it's ineffective or actually harmful. I know you have a personal emotional attachment to the idea that Chinese culture is great and good and that Chinese medicine is, too. Fine. As an amphibian I believe in the supremacy of the semi-aquatic lifestyle. 

"In the whole world no group is quite as cool as my group. In my group there is nobody quite as cool as me" is one of the most common diseases of the human ego. It immediately extends to "Anything connected with my group must be wonderful" which is where keept coming back to when you and the evidence-based scientific medicine supporters butt heads over this sort of thing. 

Pointing out that there's a lot of incorrect stuff in thousand year-old pre-scientific folk cures is not an attack on China, Chinese culture or any person of Chinese extraction. 

Bottom line: *Do not put cinnabar or anything that contains it into your body or on unprotected skin. It is bad for you.*


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 30, 2009)

Tellner,

I agree with not using Cinnabar. As stated here:


> My advice is to avoid taking formulas with Cinnabar as their are safer,effective alternatives to it.


 

I have also provided evidence showing its toxicity and amount. From what I have read on dosage in Chinese medicine the amount is nowhere near these amounts. This is not an excuse to use it I am only stating that dosage is very small and it is not used for extended periods of time.

Using Cinnabar is not taught in Acupuncture school here in America well at least that I know of. Maybe as a reference but not in treatments.
Cinnabar has to much risk and their are other herbs that can be used in its place. 

I do not hold any group of people in higher or inferior states nor do I percieve myself to have an emotional attachment to all things Chinese or Asian however giving my interests it might seem that way.

So I think we are in agreement that Cinnabar should not be used and from my perspective should be kept as an olden approach similar to consuming Jade or Gold.


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## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2009)

tellner said:


> JCA, I really don't care if it's been used for 10,000 years and has the Seal of Approval of Xin Shihuangdi.


 
If you mean Qin Shi Huang Di I really hope this part of your post is tongue in cheek and not another attack on me based on Traditional Chinese Medicine because if you read my post it never said he gave it any approval, although he did use it in his quest for immortality. I said it drove him crazy and likely killed him. 

Qin Shi Huang Di was the first emperor of China and died in 210 BCE

I also said don't use cinnabar

Now if my knowledge of Chinese history is also an issue I don't really know what to tell you here other than look up the Qin Empire it will be there


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## prairiemantis (May 30, 2009)

i didn't try to get a heated thing goin. i simply wanted to see if my thoughts on cinnabar were sound. seems like you can go on the concept that since it(mercury) has been used since ancient times, that it must be ok, or alternatively you can ask yourself if modern understanding could play a roll in herbology. using alternatives is probly best. we all know how murcury can kill the water systems of earth. now lets look at water as a philosophy, should we do things to cause that harm.
 lets move on to other aspects of herbs...or not


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 30, 2009)

I thought I would add some things on the history of Cinnabars use:

From the different writings such as the Bao Bu Zi and other External traditions using Cinnabar we find talk about supernatural powers.
IMO this is result of poisoning not only of Mercury but other alloys such as Arsonolite.

I find this interesting:


> Despite the well known toxicity of arsenic, arsenic trioxide has long been of biomedical interest, dating to traditional Chinese medicine, where it is known as _Pi Shuang_ and is still used to treat cancer and other conditions.[6] Some discredited patent medicines, e.g. Fowler's solution, contained derivatives of arsenic oxide. Arsenic trioxide under the trade name Trisenox (manufacturer: Cephalon) is a chemotheraputic agent of idiopathic function used to treat leukemia that is unresponsive to "first line" agents. It is suspected that arsenic trioxide induces cancer cells to undergo apoptosis. Due to the toxic nature of arsenic, this drug carries significant risks. Use as a cytostatic in the treatment of refractory promyelocytic (M3) subtype of acute myeloid leukemia.[7][8] The combination therapy of arsenic trioxide and all-trans retinoic acid (ATRA) has been approved by the U.S. FDA for treatment of certain leukemias.[9]
> Arsenic trioxide also appears to be a promising therapeutic agent for autoimmune diseases.[10]
> The enzyme thioredoxin reductase has recently been identified as a target for arsenic trioxide.[11]


 
According to Ko Hung the refinement of Cinnabar was a painstaking process the crucible could not even have a hairline opening or it would ruin the process along with other taboos.
Another interesting article dealing with Cinnabar:
http://www.unspeakabletruth.net/Chinese_alchemy/encyclopedia.htm

Arthur Waley thought because Cinnabar was used as a pigment on early grave ornaments and suggested that it was thought to have life giving properties. This is most likely a clear sign of Shamanism moving into the early external alchemy. It is interesting to note that this external use of Cinnabar used to prolong life was not in decline until the Tang dynasty despite the death toll. There is alot of apologetics who even during those times made excuses on why it did not work and that in itself would make a very interesting read.


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## prairiemantis (Jun 1, 2009)

what about herbs found here in America.   american ginseng(panax quinefolius) Solomens seal (polygonatum commutatum) and even licorice root( glycyrrhiza lepidota) are found native to my area, along with some others. my way is to cultivate "mothers" within the medicinal gardens section of my personal "zen" garden.  does any one have experience with this side of herbology?  how can i obtain ginseng plants/ knowing they take years to grow into harvestable roots. 
i have read about ginseng collector permits....does anyone have experience with this? 

if any one had viable ginseng plants/seeds i'd be interested in barter.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 1, 2009)

> does any one have experience with this side of herbology


 I don't understand the question. Are you asking if anyone has experience with Herbs you just listed?



> how can i obtain ginseng plants/ knowing they take years to grow into harvestable roots.


http://www.shadeflowers.com/ They sell it. I am sure there are other places that sell it in the form you are talking about. This is American Ginseng(Panax Quinquefolium) I do not know where to get Asian Ginseng(Panax Ginseng) Plants. I have only seem roots.


> i have read about ginseng collector permits....does anyone have experience with this?


 
http://www.tn.gov/environment/permits/ginseng.shtml
http://www.vermontagriculture.com/ARMES/plantindustry/plantPathology/ginseng/index.html
It deals more with selling Ginseng. And also deals more with Wild and American Ginseng.


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## prairiemantis (Jun 1, 2009)

sorry , looking for growing tips and issues pertained to said herbs.  i know  american ginseng needs very specific light, filtered shade and what not.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2009)

prairiemantis said:


> i know american ginseng needs very specific light, filtered shade and what not.


 
And depending on what state you live in it also requires a permit


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## clfsean (Jun 1, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> And depending on what state you live in it also requires a permit



Really?? Why?? It's not like growing peyote for native American religious ceremonies & such...


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## prairiemantis (Jun 1, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Really?? Why?? It's not like growing peyote for native American religious ceremonies & such...


well honestly, it could be seen like that ,  american ginsengis protected due to over harvesting and the amazing prices of said root. basically if people were allowed to dig it up when ever- wherever it would become very much endangered. unlike other plants mentioned, ginseng has excepted medical or health benefits.  though it takes  a long time to grow(ginseng that is) it doesn't take 10+ years and a very small native habitat,like other medicines,  to do so.
legalities of plants...id say should really sit in the realm of common sense, people being people dont practice common sense on a large scale so laws are then made. 
   good people dont need laws and bad people dont listen to laws. this crazy little circle has rounded most all aspects of life. organic medicine included,


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Really?? Why?? It's not like growing peyote for native American religious ceremonies & such...


 
Why? Well the usual $$$$

NYSDEC
http://www.dec.ny.gov/regs/15523.html 


> A license or permit may be required to grow ginseng. State regulations vary and you need to check with your State Department of Agriculture before you do any planting.


 
More Here


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## prairiemantis (Jun 1, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why? Well the usual $$$$
> 
> NYSDEC
> 
> ...




this is good info, thank you for that link.

 "Ginseng requires soil that is generally moist and loamy (loose, fertile soil consisting of clay, sand and silt), without an overly heavy concentration of clay. If you are serious about the success of your ginseng crop, make sure you test the soil in the area where you are planting. It should be on the acidic side (pH around 4.5 to 5.5), and the calcium levels should be around 4000 pounds per acre. To encourage larger roots (the medicinal part of the plant), phosphorus should be present in the soil in concentrations of at least 95 pounds per acre. You can use commercial fertilizers to adjust the composition of your soil."

except id leave out any commercial fertilizers.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 1, 2009)

As Xue has pointed out Ginseng cost money. 

http://www.catskillginseng.com/

This site has some serious Ginseng for sale. I think there is alot of scams on Ginseng out there. If anyone remembers the famous Jackie Chan movie Drunken master2 where Jackie gives another herb to someone instead of the actual praised Ginseng. 

Praire I have never grown Ginseng I think it is a painful and tedious task that you really have to show interest in. Maybe for me I can be interested in that in another 20-30 years lol.


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## clfsean (Jun 1, 2009)

Wow... that is ridiculous... 

Apparently it doesn't grow that well down here anyway, so oh well, but dang... all of that over a medicinal non-hallucinogenic one at that...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Wow... that is ridiculous...
> 
> Apparently it doesn't grow that well down here anyway, so oh well, but dang... all of that over a medicinal non-hallucinogenic one at that...


 
Hey if just anyone could grow it then it would be everywhere and they couldn't justify asking for large piles of money to buy it


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## clfsean (Jun 1, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hey if just anyone could grow it then it would be everywhere and they couldn't justify asking for large piles of money to buy it




DOH!!!!!!!!! Stooopid me... :uhyeah::bangahead::headbangin:


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## geezer (Jun 7, 2009)

prairiemantis said:


> ok so dit da jow, and dit da jui a world of mystery.
> let us talk about how they are used and how not to use them.
> 
> ill start.  a lot of dit da jow formulas had cinnabar listed. cinnabar is raw mercury ore.  should it be used? or should we look at what we now know of murcury and not include it in the formula. i long for an educated thought on this.



OK to get back on-topic for a moment. How common do you suppose the inclusion of cinnabar is in dit dar jow sold today. I just bought some from a friend's sifu, which he in turn gets from his sifu in San Francisco. Nothing commercial. You bring your own bottle and he sells you about 8 ounces at a time. It smells good and seems to help when I'm working on the dummy. But god knows what's in it. You see my concern.

Now for something totally off-topic._ Prariemantis,_ aren't you the guy in that youtube clip training with a big cluster of heavy chains hanging from the ceiling? If so, does that kind of training (or other exercises that involve arm-conditioning) affect your tats over time? Just curious.


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## prairiemantis (Jun 7, 2009)

geezer said:


> It smells good and seems to help when I'm working on the dummy. But god knows what's in it. You see my concern.
> If so, does that kind of training (or other exercises that involve arm-conditioning) affect your tats over time? Just curious.



 i know with out a doubt in my mind, some of the commercial jow sold does have cinnabar used in it, in fact i know someone who got so annoyed over this , that he threw out like 2 gal. of jow because he couldnt get the ingredient list from the sifu who made the jow, couldnt even get the techer to tell him if cinnabar was used. to me this is not a good teacher/sifu. nothing is so secret that a question like this shouldnt be answered to a satisfactory level. i know that cinnabar was used in some of the jows, when i was first introduced to kung fu, this was the normal, before i investigated it myself.  i was given a pamplet on jow making, with a "basic" formula.  cinnabar is listed. this tells me that a good % of the people making jows probably should do more homework. 
id just flat out ask and see what is said of it.

as for the tattoos. yes and know. pending on colors and locations, but really i don't have much of an issue with it hurting the ink. just let it heal completly before conditioning. i can tell you this. every time i go to get work done on my arms, the artist has to use twice the ink, i do contribute this to conditioning.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2009)

Cinnabar (zhu sha)



> Cinnabar is not an herb, but a type of mineral, consisting primarily of mercury sulphide, an ore.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 7, 2009)

Here is Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing This does not list all the herbs and such but it does have Cinnabar in here:
http://www.bluepoppy.com/pdf_book/divinefarmer_fwd.pdf

It is a great read With Bob Flaw I think wrote this.

I am doubtful if a good amount of the Jades and Stone formulas are used in the States or taught for that matter. I think Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing is a reference book now and a more updated book is used. But there are alot of Herbal books both in Chinese and English and they can be expensive.

If I am able to find the complete Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing I will gladly post it here if anyone else finds it please post it as well. There are quite a lot of translations of it so it would be nice to compare.


[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]More on Shen Nong's work by Bob Flaw:[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]http://books.google.com/books?id=NjC-eTffFeQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Shen+Nong+Ben+Cao+Jing#PPA9,M1[/FONT]

And 
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ht9X7ElgAG8C&pg=PA1&dq=Shen+Nong+Ben+Cao+Jing&lr
This is a $200 book and you can read it online for free it is about 700 pages enjoy


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## geezer (Jun 7, 2009)

prairiemantis said:


> i know with out a doubt in my mind, some of the commercial jow sold does have cinnabar used in it, in fact i know someone who got so annoyed over this , that he threw out like 2 gal. of jow because he couldnt get the ingredient list from the sifu who made the jow, couldnt even get the techer to tell him if cinnabar was used. to me this is not a good teacher/sifu. nothing is so secret that a question like this shouldnt be answered to a satisfactory level. i know that cinnabar was used in some of the jows, when i was first introduced to kung fu, this was the normal, before i investigated it myself.  i was given a pamplet on jow making, with a "basic" formula.  cinnabar is listed. this tells me that a good % of the people making jows probably should do more homework.
> id just flat out ask and see what is said of it.



I'm going to see if I can find out if the jow I bought has cinnabar in it, but if I can't, I'm not really very keen to just toss it. I mean, I chewed up one (or was it two?) mercury oral thermometers as a kid, played with pure mercury on a couple of occasions and also regularly used mercurechrome on cuts and scrapes too. And I survived ingesting other questionable substances in the late 60's and 70's. Folks will tell you I'm already mad as a hatter (hatters--another group subject to high levels of mercury exposure). How much more harm could a little externally applied jow do now. But I won't buy any more until I can verify that it's cinnabar-free.


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## prairiemantis (Jun 8, 2009)

everything i have found by Bob Flaw and bluepoppy press has proven valuable in martial medicine. just a great series of books. some are out of print, but can be found, good stuff

geezer i would not throw it away either, unless there is reason to believe its no good, and like you said, you've eaten stranger things lol   just keep it in mind.  there are other  common things in jows that are no good. herbs mixed that shouldn't be and things like that. i think the rule of thumb is know the person you buy your jow from, or alternativly make your own, its much cheaper that way anyway.  you know the average jow costs near nothing to make, alcohol not included. it is sold with considerable capitalistic mark-up, due to the "secret" formula, but guess what its not a secret. its just involved, which could justify the 20$ i spose.


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## prairiemantis (Jun 11, 2009)

anyone have a  thought about buying dit da jow and having it arrive in a plastic bottle. seems to me that this is not good, kinda like using aluminum to make the jow, it may react with the herbs/alcohol used.  still you find this everywhere. whats up? is it a cost thing, a shipping thing?  i dont get it. why not use glass? or earthware. do we really need  jow to  feed the petro industry?


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## Tensei85 (Jun 24, 2009)

prairiemantis said:


> anyone have a  thought about buying dit da jow and having it arrive in a plastic bottle. seems to me that this is not good, kinda like using aluminum to make the jow, it may react with the herbs/alcohol used.  still you find this everywhere. whats up? is it a cost thing, a shipping thing?  i dont get it. why not use glass? or earthware. do we really need  jow to  feed the petro industry?



Yea, I would have to say its more cost effective to buy plastic jow bottles as opposed to glass. Though I always store mine in glass containers, personally don't care for the plastic. But I knew some dit da jow sellers and they payed well under a $1 for each plastic jow verses the glass which was more.

And of course shipping would be much cheaper for plastic verses glass as well.


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## General_Tso (Jun 25, 2009)

Have you guys heard of Dragon Juice? Or Dragon Breath, or something like that. It's another liniment in Chinese medicine. I have a friend who is a learned man in Chinese medicines, acupuncture, herbology, etc... He doesnt have the equipment to extract (expell?) the herbs to make dit da jow, and he suggested maybe using the Dragon stuff - If i wanted him to make it. he wasnt trying to steer me away from it, just offered what he could make.

Ever heard of it? sorry I cant remember exactly what he called it now, but it was Dragon _<something>._ It might have been Flying Dragon? Anyway, since he's a friend of our family, and has PhD's out the wazoo, I trust his stuff. Not sure if it would do the same thing as the dit da jow. 

Thanks!


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## Tensei85 (Jun 25, 2009)

General_Tso said:


> Have you guys heard of Dragon Juice? Or Dragon Breath, or something like that. It's another liniment in Chinese medicine. I have a friend who is a learned man in Chinese medicines, acupuncture, herbology, etc... He doesnt have the equipment to extract (expell?) the herbs to make dit da jow, and he suggested maybe using the Dragon stuff - If i wanted him to make it. he wasnt trying to steer me away from it, just offered what he could make.
> 
> Ever heard of it? sorry I cant remember exactly what he called it now, but it was Dragon _<something>._ It might have been Flying Dragon? Anyway, since he's a friend of our family, and has PhD's out the wazoo, I trust his stuff. Not sure if it would do the same thing as the dit da jow.
> 
> Thanks!



Hmm, maybe are you talking about Dragon's Blood??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_blood


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## Tensei85 (Jun 25, 2009)

Here's generally Dragon's breath:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Breath


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 26, 2009)

> Have you guys heard of Dragon Juice? Or Dragon Breath


 Dragon's breath is: http://www.hiddenvalleynaturearts.com/acatalog/dragonsbreathinfo.html

Here are benefits of Hibiscus: http://www.turks.us/article~story~herbalrelatedarticle.htm

Dragon's Juice I don't know need Botanical name.

There does exist a flying dragon liniment:

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories&category=14&vendor=&product=5554&pg


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## Tensei85 (Jun 26, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Dragon's breath is: http://www.hiddenvalleynaturearts.com/acatalog/dragonsbreathinfo.html
> 
> Here are benefits of Hibiscus: http://www.turks.us/article~story~herbalrelatedarticle.htm
> 
> ...




Good call!


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## lhommedieu (Jun 26, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Yea, I would have to say its more cost effective to buy plastic jow bottles as opposed to glass. Though I always store mine in glass containers, personally don't care for the plastic. But I knew some dit da jow sellers and they payed well under a $1 for each plastic jow verses the glass which was more.
> 
> And of course shipping would be much cheaper for plastic verses glass as well.



The reason that jow should be kept in glass bottles is that, depending on the jow, some of the agents in the herbs can leach chemicals out of the plastic bottles.

Hibiscus flower is not used in jows.  It can be used as a colorant and flavoring for herbal teas (typically with rose hips), and has beneficial effects on the digestive system.  I have also heard of it being used for scalp conditions as it has cooling properties.  Hibiscus root bark is frequently used in Chinese herbal medicine for intestinal complaints.

Xue Jie (Dragon's Blood) is frequently used in jows as it is a strong blood mover.  No relation to hibiscus, however.

Best,

Steve


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## General_Tso (Jun 26, 2009)

It is the Flying Dragon Liniment he has. 

From the Wiki: "Traditional Chinese Medical theory states that pain is caused by Qi and Blood not moving in the channels and muscle tissue. The herbs in this liniment are formulated to stop pain by warming and moving Qi and Blood in the affected area. This liniment may be used for any type of muscle or joint pain."

Sounds like it does the same thing as the Dit Da Jow. 

Thanks for all the links as well.


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## prairiemantis (Sep 14, 2009)

i was wondering if anyone here has tried tom bisio's tendon liniment? if so what are your thoughts


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## prairiemantis (Jun 2, 2011)

hey everyone 

so im here to report success in sprouting american ginseng...harding wild mountain herb and  ginseng farms did me right with good seed last year, its now spring time and i got some growing.  he told me the two most dangerous things to the ginseng is the sun and man. one is fixed with shade nets or trees the other with buckshot in the backside.   kind funny, but probably true.        now lets see in ten years if im anywhere near my "spot" to harvest.....

any recent thoughts on herbs these days?  i did make up a batch of the tom bisio tendon liniment from 'tooth in the tiger mouth'  , just pulled it up not too long ago after about a year of darkness so thats kind of cool to see.    not so much a jow for every day training as much as it is for old aches if i recall, i figured it wouldn't hurt to have around.    

also i found a bottle of dit da i made with my sifu like 8 years ago, sitting in a plastic jug sittin in a closet, the plastic looked funky. so id for sure say switch  bottles if you have em in plastic. i actually did dump the jow out it looked so weird. too bad it was a super strong liniment.  but yes id say it leached the plastic.

  man i got terrible spelling and grammar in  this thread.  ill try to be a bit more aware.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2011)

geezer said:


> I'm going to see if I can find out if the jow I bought has cinnabar in it, but if I can't, I'm not really very keen to just toss it. I mean, I chewed up one (or was it two?) mercury oral thermometers as a kid, played with pure mercury on a couple of occasions and also regularly used mercurechrome on cuts and scrapes too. And I survived ingesting other questionable substances in the late 60's and 70's. Folks will tell you I'm already mad as a hatter (hatters--another group subject to high levels of mercury exposure). How much more harm could a little externally applied jow do now. But I won't buy any more until I can verify that it's cinnabar-free.


A kindred spirit. I've been splashing around with hydro-floric for the last twenty years. 
Sean


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## prairiemantis (Jun 9, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> A kindred spirit. I've been splashing around with hydro-floric for the last twenty years.
> Sean




hehehehe ya that sounds like a good idea....i totally assume your kidding.



so i was drying some capsicum  in my dehydrator for later use....this produced a wicked
 'tear gas affect in the house....*note to self,dont do that.*


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