# Hello from Mantismaster



## Mantismaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Hello everyone I'm new to this forum my expertize is on 7-Star Mantis Kung Fu.  I'm a Closed-Door Disciple of Grandmaster Lee Kam Wing.  If anyone has any questions on the 7-Star mantis style, please do not hesitate to ask.  I hope we can all share and enjoy each others knowledge.

Peace
Mantismaster



"He who collects forms is only a paper tiger"


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## Mantismaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Mantismaster said:


> Hello everyone I'm new to this forum my expertize is on 7-Star Mantis Kung Fu. I'm a Closed-Door Disciple of Grandmaster Lee Kam Wing. If anyone has any questions on the 7-Star mantis style, please do not hesitate to ask. I hope we can all share and enjoy each others knowledge.
> 
> Peace
> Mantismaster


"He who collects forms is only a paper tiger"


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## JBrainard (Nov 15, 2007)

Ave.


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## Mei Hua (Nov 19, 2007)

Cheers

Among others, I train some in Mei Hua Tang Lang


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## Drac (Nov 19, 2007)

Greetings and Welcome..


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## Rabu (Nov 20, 2007)

Nice to online meet you.

Welcome aboard.

Rob


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## stone_dragone (Nov 20, 2007)

Greetings and welcome to MT!


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## Karatedrifter7 (Nov 20, 2007)

Mantismaster said:


> Hello everyone I'm new to this forum my expertize is on 7-Star Mantis Kung Fu. I'm a Closed-Door Disciple of Grandmaster Lee Kam Wing. If anyone has any questions on the 7-Star mantis style, please do not hesitate to ask. I hope we can all share and enjoy each others knowledge.
> 
> Peace
> Mantismaster
> ...


 
Yeah here's a question. What distinguishes Mantis the most aside from Mantis grabbing, to that of other Kung Fu styles?


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## Mantismaster (Nov 21, 2007)

Hello Karatedrifter:

Mantis is a unique style on it's own, it is considered one of the first eclectic system in martial arts. By that I mean that when Wong Long (founder of mantis) created mantis he incorporated 17 other style into the mantis system. 

First we need to understand what style means. In the olden days when you were taught Kung Fu your teacher would tell you that he was going to teach you a new style (form), forms were called styles, and by learning different styles you were basically learning how to develop new rythyms or new techniques that your master wanted you to learn. 

In America most people call style the type of martial arts they do (they are not wrong, but this is not what we are talking about). Wong Long incorporated 17 different styles or techniques from 17 different masters that he had learned and made mantis the 18th style added. 

What makes mantis different then other Kung Fu styles is the way that we train. In 7-Star Mantis when you practice your forms you see nothing but joint breaking, eye gauging, etc. we don't practice pretty forms and in our training the intensity is on "NO MERCY ON YOUR PREY (OPPONENT)." 

All martial arts are good and effective, some just have a little more then others and then it's the combat concepts that separate them. Mantis unique legs and hand work are a force to requem with. Our training is to constantly make contact with your opponent, if one technique doesn't get him the other will. We use the hands and feet 50/50. 

By fighting this way it creates confussion on your opponent, you strike to the head and strike to the legs at the same time, now your opponent doesn't know which one to block. Once he chooses which one to block the other hand strikes it's target. We use in 7-Star Mantis the footwork of the monkey and the hands of the mantis. Now just cause you see a person doing a mantis claw doesn't mean that it's mantis what he is doing. 

When I was competeting I would see guys come up in the Kung Fu divisions introduce there form as a mantis form and you would see them just holding the mantis claw through out the form. I would go up to them and tell them that was not a mantis form that was something you created or were taught from someone who doesn't know mantis. 

Remember we have 17 different styles so we use longfist, some plum blossom, we punch , backfist, hammerfist, poke eyse, you name it. So be careful out there with imitators. Mantis has a unique footwork in itself, it is very distinguishable. Hope this helps.

Peace

Mantismaster


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## Codeboy (Nov 23, 2007)

I'm not an expert by any means (I've been studying seven star for almost two years) but I think that was a pretty good summary of the system from what I know.

It is important to get someone as a Sifu who has a verifyable lineage in the system too.  Otherwise it could just be anyone calling themselves a Sifu who is making it up as they go along.  Actually I heard someone talking in class last week that in a lot of tournaments they banned video cameras because people would come in and video tape forms, then go home and "learn" them and pass themselves off as a teacher.


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## flayofish (Dec 20, 2007)

Hello.
I live in Austin, TX and found this place: http://www.usakfa.com/

Does this guy look like the real thing?

-thanks

Edit: Here is the link where he discusses philosophy and there are some videos.  http://www.usakfa.com/cave/index.html
The bottom video shows the instructor, Jeff Hughes, performing a Mantis form (I had to click videos twice to get them to come up).  I'm not endorsing the school, just want opinions to help me decide.
-thanks


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## flayofish (Dec 20, 2007)

Excuse my ignorance.  I did some digging and found the answer I was looking for.  Looks like I'll be signing up in a couple months.


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## Mantismaster (Dec 23, 2007)

*Hello Flayofish*

Sifu Jeff Hughes is a great teacher very knowledgeable and dedicated to his art.  The whole group Kung Fu Exchange is lead by Master Raymond Fogg a good friend of mine, we have trained together and he has given seminars at my kwoon.  Good luck in your journey, you will enjoy the knowledge you get. But make sure you cherish it.

Peace
Mantismaster


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## flayofish (Dec 24, 2007)

Thank you for your quick response.
I'm looking forward to starting soon.
Keep up the informative posts, they are quite helpful!


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## Ronnin (Jan 23, 2008)

Mantismaster said:


> Hello everyone I'm new to this forum my expertize is on 7-Star Mantis Kung Fu. I'm a Closed-Door Disciple of Grandmaster Lee Kam Wing. If anyone has any questions on the 7-Star mantis style, please do not hesitate to ask. I hope we can all share and enjoy each others knowledge.
> 
> Peace
> Mantismaster
> ...


 
Hello Mantismaster.
I was wondering if you could verify someone for me as I am VERY interested in learnig 7star he is Sifu Jon Cheng. He's in Orange county, or if you could point me in the direction of a respectable teacher and NOT a paper tiger. I'm not looking for Wushu. Not knocking it, I'm just looking for the martial aspect. Again I'm in Orange county California. Thanks a lot.


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## 7starmarc (Jan 24, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> Hello Mantismaster.
> I was wondering if you could verify someone for me as I am VERY interested in learnig 7star he is Sifu Jon Cheng. He's in Orange county, or if you could point me in the direction of a respectable teacher and NOT a paper tiger. I'm not looking for Wushu. Not knocking it, I'm just looking for the martial aspect. Again I'm in Orange county California. Thanks a lot.


 
Ronnin,

I am actually a student at his school (2 1/2 years now). From what I've experienced, I've enjoyed the instruction there. The instructors are knowledgeable and effective. We cover forms, applications, chi-sau, and weapons.

Sifu Cheng's lineage can be traced to both Lee Kam Wing and Raymond Fogg. He has strong ties to Sifu Hughes and others in the Kung Fu exchange in Texas.

PM me for any other questions, particularly if you think you want to stop by and check the school out.


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## Mantismaster (Mar 3, 2008)

John Cheng is actually my training brother my Sihing under Grandmaster Lee Kam Wiing.  Enjoy your journey.

Peace

Mantismaster


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## 7starmarc (Mar 5, 2008)

Mantismaster said:


> John Cheng is actually my training brother my Sihing under Grandmaster Lee Kam Wiing.  Enjoy your journey.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Mantismaster



Thank you, so far, I have.


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 22, 2008)

Hello this is in regards to Ronnin I don't know if anyone reponsonded to you but sifu cheng is very reputable his lineage is under Lee Kam Wing so he is legit my teacher is on of his top disciples MR. Hung, so you will learn very good effective mantis, also I was wondering where in OC you live, Im in Mission Viejo, so I go to the Ladera Ranch school, there are also two others the original one is irvine and the other is rancho stana marguerita.


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 22, 2008)

7starmarc said:


> Ronnin,
> 
> I am actually a student at his school (2 1/2 years now). From what I've experienced, I've enjoyed the instruction there. The instructors are knowledgeable and effective. We cover forms, applications, chi-sau, and weapons.
> 
> ...


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## Ninebird8 (Aug 22, 2008)

Although my expertise is in Ying jow pai eagle claw, Nine birds Wudan Shaolin, and Southern White Crane/Long Fist/Yang tai chi (teachers Leung Shum/Ricky Anderson/Jeff Bolt from Dr. Yang Jwing Ming), I have known Dr. John Cheng since 1981 when we helped open Sifu Fogg's school in Marshall Tx. Besides a great mantis master (study his saber and spear technique, some of the best in the world plus he looks like a mantis doingh his stuff....and his legs are huge from his dedicated mantis footwork!). He is also an orthopaedic surgeon from Texas Tech with undergrad at Baylor here in Texas. Sifu Fogg is a great teacher and good person. Two of my three teachrs know him very well and after 31 years of training myself, I can honestly say John is one of the best people in the art! By the way, Jeff Hughes is also very good although I have found it interesting that he now trains in Ying Jow with our cousins the Lau family in California. But that is another story. Jeff is a very good martial artist and John is his senior under Raymond here in Texas. Hope this clarifies what Mantis Master has said. Other than my "bird" styles, I love Mantis footwork and enjoy the fact that mantis, eagle claw, and white crane are, in my opinion, the best chin na Northern styles.


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## Ninebird8 (Aug 22, 2008)

Mantismaster, it would be a pleasure to know you. If John is your Sihing from Sigung Lee Kam Wing then you are well trained indeed!! Great teacher and great Sihing....you must have had fun learning the bug!!! John's bridging technique from his mantis hooks are also exceptional!


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 22, 2008)

Excuse me from asking but is your Eagle Claw Sifu Leung Shum?


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 22, 2008)

7 Star Marc I was wondering which school you attend in CA?


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## Ninebird8 (Aug 22, 2008)

Nite Dragon, yes it is...I am the training brother of Sifu Joel Rodriguez. I have also trained with Sigung Ricky Anderson in Wudan Shaolin Nine bird family style and Sigung Jeff Bolt in Southern White Crane, Long Fist, and Yang tai chi and his master Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. My sifu Leung Shum is a very special person and is a great man in my estimation. Of my three masters, he is my heart. Joel went on to become one of 7 masters under Sifu, including Ernie Rothrock, and knows between 103-108 locks. The last 6 are examined by each master and then submitted to Sifu for whether or not they actually got it. They are a compilation, sort of like hung kuen and lin kuen, the dictionary and encyclopaedia of the 78 forms taught in eagle claw under Sifu. If you ask Sifu about me using my last name, he will not know the last name, but if you say Texas Mike everyone knows me through that, including Sifu, who never was able to pronounce my last name, not even in March when we had a Ying Jow family gathering...LOL!


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 22, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> Nite Dragon, yes it is...I am the training brother of Sifu Joel Rodriguez. I have also trained with Sigung Ricky Anderson in Wudan Shaolin Nine bird family style and Sigung Jeff Bolt in Southern White Crane, Long Fist, and Yang tai chi and his master Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. My sifu Leung Shum is a very special person and is a great man in my estimation. Of my three masters, he is my heart. Joel went on to become one of 7 masters under Sifu, including Ernie Rothrock, and knows between 103-108 locks. The last 6 are examined by each master and then submitted to Sifu for whether or not they actually got it. They are a compilation, sort of like hung kuen and lin kuen, the dictionary and encyclopaedia of the 78 forms taught in eagle claw under Sifu. If you ask Sifu about me using my last name, he will not know the last name, but if you say Texas Mike everyone knows me through that, including Sifu, who never was able to pronounce my last name, not even in March when we had a Ying Jow family gathering...LOL!



Very interesting, I was wondering when you were gonna reply, I practice 7 Star mantis under Bob Hung one of Sifu Cheng's top disciples, you too are lucky for having such great teachers.


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## Ninebird8 (Aug 25, 2008)

Great! If he is a disciple of John's then I bet his weapon skills and mantis technique are great, not to mention John has some of the best stance work I have ever seen! And, given his set up he can break ya and then fix you right up!!! LOL! Great combo....kung fu master and orthopaedic surgeon, sorta has motivation to hurt ya...LOL!!! John has been a humble person since I first met him at 12 years old at the opening of Sifu Fogg's school in Marshall, Tx. in 1981. His sifu has a video back then of John holding up his left leg straight up and me holding my right leg straight up and grinning to the camera. John also trained a little bit with us at my Shaolin school in Dallas before moving to Cali. His dad is also a doc. Jeez, even as a teenager he was disgustingly good and gave two of Johnny Lee's predominant students a run for their money in the mid to late 80s at his great tourneys in Shreveport La. Ask him about it. We used to call Sifu Fogg Sleeping Mantis who would lazily walk out to compete, then wake up and give an incredible mantis form, bow, and then walk sleepily off. My Shaolin master, of my three, is a Tong Long master.


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 25, 2008)

Awesome! and Yes my instuctor will be taking his sifu test actually in about 6 months or so he was trained very well by Sifu Cheng his stance work and mantis techniques are amazing I just wish I could see othr great styles out there like Crane and Eagle Claw, also if I see him I will ask him about the opening of the school with you. Reply back if you wish to disucss more.



Ninebird8 said:


> Great! If he is a disciple of John's then I bet his weapon skills and mantis technique are great, not to mention John has some of the best stance work I have ever seen! And, given his set up he can break ya and then fix you right up!!! LOL! Great combo....kung fu master and orthopaedic surgeon, sorta has motivation to hurt ya...LOL!!! John has been a humble person since I first met him at 12 years old at the opening of Sifu Fogg's school in Marshall, Tx. in 1981. His sifu has a video back then of John holding up his left leg straight up and me holding my right leg straight up and grinning to the camera. John also trained a little bit with us at my Shaolin school in Dallas before moving to Cali. His dad is also a doc. Jeez, even as a teenager he was disgustingly good and gave two of Johnny Lee's predominant students a run for their money in the mid to late 80s at his great tourneys in Shreveport La. Ask him about it. We used to call Sifu Fogg Sleeping Mantis who would lazily walk out to compete, then wake up and give an incredible mantis form, bow, and then walk sleepily off. My Shaolin master, of my three, is a Tong Long master.


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## Ninebird8 (Aug 26, 2008)

You mentioned two of my favorite birds: I studied Eagle under Sigung Shum and Southern Crane under Sigung Bolt and Si Tai Gung Yang. As far as John, ask him about his "log training" with us at the Shaolin school in Dallas. He handled the "cliff diving" very well....LOL!! I still laugh at that training day years ago in a suburb of Dallas. Nobody could do dragon hops like John, with those damn oak legs of his!!!! John's spear is incomparable!!


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 26, 2008)

Hahaha, If I do see him I will ask him about the log training, also I had some questions I know i eagle it has the 108 locks but what else does the system, any form of chi sao like in mantis, do you have all 18 shaolin weapons like us and the same thing goes for crane, I know it uses hooking. reply back soon


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## 7starmarc (Aug 27, 2008)

Nitedragon89 said:


> 7 Star Marc I was wondering which school you attend in CA?



Heh, sorry, I had wandered away from MT Forums for a bit.

I'm at the Irvine school. Just completed my black belt testing this last cycle.


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## Ninebird8 (Aug 27, 2008)

Eagle claw has the 108 locks, 78 empty hand and weapon forms including the 18 weapons, jow da cum na the sequence of locks, great sweeps, the 12 basic Northern kicks, and superior chin na. In Southern white crane, the fa jing is very pronounced, and there are several major forms including Yagu, Ba Mi So, etc. Southern white crane is alot like Southern mantis in the bridging techniques...for instance, there is simple and complex close range blocking and striking techniques. My Shaolin style, Nine birds family style, is a combo of 9 birds fighting. If you study one of the 5 styles of taiji as well, that assists in the bridging similar to chi sao in mantis/wing chun. Remember that wing chun comes from Southern white crane, so the same chi sao or bridging emanates from the original crane movements. 

As I stated before, in my opinion eagle claw, mantis, and white crane are superior chin na and locking systems, especially once in close range. But, and this is even more critical, whether 7 star mantis using monkey footwork, Ying Jow using the ying jow walk, or any complete style, the footwork is as important if not more important than the hands. The hands are the result of everything else, the cause of nothing!! One thing that John has that I would attain from him, and it is what makes his ba bo to his bridging superior, is the footwork to close the gap, set up the technique, and have superior spacing and positioning (especially the angles that mantis fighters are famous for during closing in movements) so by the time the actual mantis strike is achieved, the opponent is already at a distinct disadvantage. In other words, from the feet to the waist into the shoulders, expressed through the elbows out to the hands and then strike!!


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 28, 2008)

You are very well versed in your arts but I am interested in your ninebird style and what is the exact name of it and where did you learn such an art, Iv'e heard of it.


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## Ninebird8 (Aug 29, 2008)

My Wudan Shaolin style of Nine Birds, or "Bloody Birds" as it is referenced in Hong Kong, is a family style created by the family of Abbot Wang Fui Yen, of the Wudan temple in Hong Kong. Of my three teachers, my Shaolin master was the first non-Asian, black person who was accepted to train and live here from ages 3-15. He was taught the 12 animals and is a high ranking master of Tong Long Preying mantis in that system. He also learned most of the Nine Bird system from his master, the Abbot. I have learned this style from him for almost 20 years, along with the bird styles I have learned from my other two masters. Nine birds incorporates the fighting acumen of nine different birds, but is referred to as Pa (Ba) Quen or Eight Birds because the ninth and final bird is a family secret. I am one of three, that I know of, outside of Hong Kong who has learned most of it (6 out of the 9 birds so far). There is one major form for each of the nine birds and the forms are kung fu forms with anywhere between 1-200 moves....yes, very tiring especially now for a 50 year old man...LOL!!! The last two years, along with my Yang tai chi from Sigung Bolt, my Shaolin master has been concentrating on the internal part of this style, which is much harder. 

Of my three kung fu styles (ying jow, white crane, nine birds), this one is the toughest but for some reason the one I am most natural at. I hope this gives a brief insight into the style.


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## Nitedragon89 (Aug 30, 2008)

That style is very interesting Iv'e always wanted to learn a bird style and your nine bird style intrigues me signifigantly, but your learn in hong kong don't you so I never could since Im in California.


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## Ninebird8 (Aug 31, 2008)

I am actually in Houston Tx. I spent 7 years in NYC, 2 years in Hong Kong, and 1 year in London. I am originally from Dallas. My masters are currently in Houston (Sigung Bolt is actually in Saudi until October on biz), Dallas, and NYC. As a matter of fact, was suppose to go to the tourney put on by Nick Scrima in Vegas this weekend but had to prepare for the hurricane. I can talk to you more about 9 bird off line, but only to an extent. 

If you want to learn a bird style, there are three or four eagle claw seniors from Leung Shum there, mostly in LA, but one in Sacramento, Benson Lee, who is actually one of the three top seniors of Sifu. Lily and Genny Lau also have schools in North California. There is also Donald Walth in Des Moines, and two in Southern California, plus Ken Edwards, who also teaches preying mantis. I do not know Ken, but my brother Joel Rodriguez does. As far a Crane, there are several crane masters there, plus both Choy li fut and Hung gar contain great crane within the five animals and tiger/crane of the two styles. Also, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is now in California at his retreat, and offers periodic Souther White Crane seminars at there as well. His fa jing, along with my Crane sifu's (Jeff Bolt) are incredible!!

Those are some bird suggestions since the distance between us is great. 

Hope that helps, keep pecking away....LOL!!!


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## Nitedragon89 (Sep 1, 2008)

What a bummer, those are all still to far for me


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## Ninebird8 (Sep 1, 2008)

If you really seek knowledge and wisdom, my friend, nothing is too far!! Find a way! I moved from Dallas to NYC at one point, without knowing anyone, and worked on Wall St. to support my kung fu training with Leung Shum. I moved back to to Dallas to train under my Shaolin master, and moved to Houston to do the same while going back to school and obtaining my MBA in my 40s. Sooooo...if you really want something, find a way!!! Especially if you are single. In Dallas, I have a brother who drove after work almost 100 miles roundtrip every day to train with us, then went home and did homework for school. He is now at Master level in Hung Gar and got his degree in Hotel Management while working and a family. It can be done!


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## Nitedragon89 (Sep 2, 2008)

not when your outta high school yet , only a junior.


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## Ninebird8 (Sep 5, 2008)

Good point my young one! A hopeful comment....I wrestled from age 14-18 and did not get into Chinese martial arts until age 18, so there is hope for you. I started as a freshman in college and now 50, and along with family and finance/consulting, is the passion of my life!!


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## Karatedrifter7 (Nov 25, 2008)

They call Mantis somewhat of a grappling art, do you find this to be true? Can you name some of the techniques? I'm just curious.


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## Ninebird8 (Nov 25, 2008)

Nitedragon, I will be out in California with my wife next March because my Ying Jow Master's annual birthday party (and his 35th anniversary teaching in the US) will be in LA this year in Glendale under the auspices of Sifu Benson Lee, my Sihing in that style. I am hoping to see John Cheng, Kisu, and some others while we are out there! It might be cool to get together and I can show you some of it if you wish, and I have time...LOL!!


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## Nitedragon89 (Nov 25, 2008)

That would be awesome I'm somewhat near LA I live in Mission Viejo kind of by irvine ever hear of it?


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## Ninebird8 (Nov 26, 2008)

Yes, I have. Also found out that Ken Edwards knows John Cheng and Kisu very well when we talked a couple of days ago. In fact, that whole weekend, the Hilton Glendale will be filled with Ying Jow eagle claw masters, instructors, and students as Leung Shum's birthday and 35th anniversary teaching in the US is celebrated! I hope to see John for the first time in 10 years (1999 at the Wushu trials in Houston run by my sifu here, Jeff Bolt), and visit Kisu as he makes the movie based on his Airbender series on Nickelodean.

Will keep you apprised. To answer another comment, preying mantis has a great deal of wonderful locks and grabs in its system. The index finger extended can be used as an initial parry and pressure point attack with the rest of the fingers locking and pulling in for a very effective bridge into further attack. Mantis uses its version of chi sau to bridge using these locks and grabs. It is real fun for me to spar a mantis practitioner using my eagle claw and nine birds, where we evolve into a locking and movement funtime. White crane very good at this too! 

Remember, my friends, protect your bagels, put lox on them!! Sorry, an old joke for my goyim friends!


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## Nitedragon89 (Nov 27, 2008)

You know Kisu that does the Airbender series even though i'm almsot 18 I still enjoy it's a well made show


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## Ninebird8 (Nov 28, 2008)

Yes, I met Kisu at the Tai ji legacy in 2002 when my eagle claw brother and myself were there judging. Kisu is great, straightforward, no nonsense, and his kung fu is great as well. I believe he is still near Hollywood Hills. FYI, besides his Airbender creation, he and his students were heavily involved in the Last Samurai with Tom Cruise. His senior student was the son in the movie of the great leader, and died on the bridge shooting arrows at the soldiers. I hope to see him when I am in LA for the YIng JOw gathering for Leung Shum in March.


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## Ninebird8 (Dec 1, 2008)

First, to the two people inquiring about John Cheng and Jeff Hughes...if you go to the Eagle claw locks topic on this same page, you will see I have given a pretty good background of both people on this topic. John is Raymond's senior, plus studies under Mantis Master's teacher, and also under Henry Chung as well. I have known him since age 12 in Texas, he is also an orthopaedic surgeon, so if he breaks you he can fix you...LOL!! And, he looks like Jackie Chan, and his spear/saber techniques are incredible, to go along with his tong long. Jeff Hughes is I believe #2 in Raymond Fogg's org, and lately he has been training in one of my three CMA arts, Ying Jow, under the other branch (mine is the Ng Wei branch with Sigung Leung Shum as his senior, and Ng Wei was the senior and godson of Lau Fat Mon, father to Lilli, James, and Gini). Jeff is in Austin, is a great mantis person and like John learned it the old way. He is a very good fighter! And, I believe his wife is also a mantis sifu?!

Mantismaster, one question for you: historically, tong long based its footwork primarily upon monkey style movements adapted to the mantis locks/grabs/great front kicks, etc. Is this true in 7 star as well? If not, other than the front foot of 7 star being faced up to the sky, what foot movements are employed? Do these movements differ in the other 11 systems of the mantis form/style? If eagle claw is usually recognized as the base locking/grabbing jow da cum na style, where did the origins of the mantis concept of locking come from? Since I personally believe eagle, mantis, and white crane have the highest level of integrated chin na, was the mantis locking system developed independently or part of the overall development with eagle and white crane during that time period? 

Thank you, as always, for any insight.


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## Nitedragon89 (Dec 17, 2008)

Ninebird, mantis kung fu has only been around 400 something years, and system of locks came from eagle claw kung fu some 2000 years ago.


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