# TSD and TKD



## Manny

Was TKD in tghe early days a certain form of TSD? When I was a teen my sabonim told us that TSD was the old TKD form. I know both are korean martial arts and both are in some cases alike but don't know for sure.

Manny


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## reeskm

Your sabonim is right. Tangsoodo was the commonly used word before Taekwondo existed.

The name "Taekwondo" was proposed as a new name for "TangSooDo" and "KongSooDo" by General Choi Hong Hee (and possibly others in the Chung Do Kwan) in 1955. Before then, it did not exist. 

From 1955-1965 various high ranking Tangsoodo (or Kongsoodo) leaders tried to come up with a new name for Korean Karate or tangsoodo, because of its connection to China and Japan.

So basically, Tangsoodo is the ancestor art to Taekwondo. The name was still being used into the 1970s and beyond by Korean and American instructors because many people don't know what Tangsoodo or Taekwondo is. But the western public knew exactly what "Karate" is!

Even so, people still use the terms Kongsoodo and Tangsoodo today in Korea, but not very many people still do, unless they teach traditional Tangsoodo as it existed in the 1960s. If you learn the "Pyung-Ahn" forms as a gup student, you are learning Tangsoodo!

Kongsoodo and Tangsoodo is Korean for the same Chinese characters as Karate (both Open Hand Way and China Tang Dynasty Hand Way).

There is tons of info on the internet about this. It seems a lot of Taekwondo stylists are trying to get back to their roots of non-sport (martial) aspects of their arts and styles. The old Kwan system was full of beautiful traditions and aspects that were lost or started to fade when everybody was shooting for the Olypic dream in the 1980s.


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## dancingalone

Tang Soo Do as a descriptive term is most closely linked with the Moo Duk Kwan and the Chung Do Kwan prior to the taekwondo unification movement.  I'd argue that any kwan era curriculum that used the Japanese forms fits the moniker however.


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## Manny

reeskm said:


> Your sabonim is right. Tangsoodo was the commonly used word before Taekwondo existed.
> 
> The name "Taekwondo" was proposed as a new name for "TangSooDo" and "KongSooDo" by General Choi Hong Hee (and possibly others in the Chung Do Kwan) in 1955. Before then, it did not exist.
> 
> From 1955-1965 various high ranking Tangsoodo (or Kongsoodo) leaders tried to come up with a new name for Korean Karate or tangsoodo, because of its connection to China and Japan.
> 
> So basically, Tangsoodo is the ancestor art to Taekwondo. The name was still being used into the 1970s and beyond by Korean and American instructors because many people don't know what Tangsoodo or Taekwondo is. But the western public knew exactly what "Karate" is!
> 
> Even so, people still use the terms Kongsoodo and Tangsoodo today in Korea, but not very many people still do, unless they teach traditional Tangsoodo as it existed in the 1960s. If you learn the "Pyung-Ahn" forms as a gup student, you are learning Tangsoodo!
> 
> Kongsoodo and Tangsoodo is Korean for the same Chinese characters as Karate (both Open Hand Way and China Tang Dynasty Hand Way).
> 
> There is tons of info on the internet about this. It seems a lot of Taekwondo stylists are trying to get back to their roots of non-sport (martial) aspects of their arts and styles. The old Kwan system was full of beautiful traditions and aspects that were lost or started to fade when everybody was shooting for the Olypic dream in the 1980s.



Thank you very much, the last paragraph is something I wish I could do, and yes back in the mid80's when I got inside TKD back in those days I did not knew a thing about TKD and so many people in my country that's why my sabonim's dojang adverise it as Korean Karate!

El Manny


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## TSDTexan

Yes and No.
There were 5 main Kwans (Institutional Schools) and 4 Annex Kwans.
There were a lot of martial arts (styles) being taught...

Overtime the art that is presently called TKD, is a conglomeration, and also distillation or specialization of all of these arts.
Yes, it started with a bit of Korean Karate, Aikido, Judo and ended up being something else altogether.

Some history... (note... some of this is disputed)

In 1959 General Choi petitioned the Ministry of Education and the Korea Amateur Sports Association to found a new organization. Due to his close ties to Korean President Rhee, Seung Man, the acceptance of this organization was virtually assured.

General Choi coined the name Taekwondo and substantiated it in the minds of the Korean public by having the students of the art yell, "Tae Kwon," each time they executed a technique.

Though there were several names considered, and extensive debate went on, particular at the hands of Kee, Hwang, the five primary kwans:

Chung Do Kwan,
Oh Do Kwan,
Song Moo Kwan,
Chang Moo Kwan,
Ji Do Kwan, and
Moo Duk Kwan

came together and the name Taekwondo was finally accepted due to the fact that it closely reassembled the name of the ancient Korean martial art, Tae Kyon.

As every Korean male was duty bound to serve in the military, they were each indoctrinated into the Taekwondo method of the martial arts. In 1959 the Korea Taekwondo Association was formalized.

It was not until 16 May 1961, however, when President Rhee was overthrown by a military coup de tat that the leaders of the Korean martial arts would finally be forced to formalize into one body. In fact, it was Governmental Decree #6, of this coup, where it was detailed that all schools of the Korean martial arts must come together under one banner.

The Korea Tae Soo Do Association
Due to this decree, the leaders of the kwans again came together and attempted to formalize under one organization. Heated debated went on throughout 1961. The group emerged with the name the Korea Tae Soo Do Association.

As was the case with the Korea Kong Soo Do Association, the primary concern was formalized teaching and promotion standards. To help to achieve this, an inspection team was sent up and deployed to the various kwans in order to propagate the fact that they must use standardized Hyung (forms) and Taeryun (free sparring) techniques.

Though the Korea Tae Soo Do Association was the institution to lay the foundation for what was to become Taekwondo, there was still a large amount of infighting.

Many of the advanced members did not like the fact that they were being dictated on how they must teach and advance their students. Again, at the forefront of this controversy was Hwang Kee. On 20 July 1962, Hwang Kee wrote his initial letter withdrawing Moo Duk Kwan from the organization.

In is important to note that due to General Choi's close association with ousted President Rhee, (though he was instrument in the coup), he did not play an important role in the formation of this organization.

In fact, though he once held the pivotal positions of Commander of the 6th Korean Army and Director of Intelligence, to name only two pivotal positions, he was extremely disliked by the new Korean President, Park, Chung Hee.

General Choi attributes this to the fact that President Park did not like him because of the fact that he was once his superior officer. As such, Choi was forced to resign from the military and was sent to Malaysia in the capactiy of Ambassador.

At this point, the integration of Korean politics entered into the realm of the martial arts again. The Korea Tae Soo Do Association remained without a president for approximately one year after it was founded. Then, General Choi, Myung Shin became its first president on 28 December 1962.

The International Taekwondo Federation
In 1965 General Choi returned from Malaysia to South Korea. Soon after that he was elected president of the Korea Tae Soo Do Association. He called together the General Assembly and proposed a vote to change the name of the organization back to the Korea Taekwondo Association. The name won by one vote.

By 1966 General Choi had formed the International Taekwondo Federation to help Taekwondo spread across the globe. In that same year, due to fear of house arrest by President Park, he left South Korea, moving himself and the headquarters of his organization to Montreal Canada.

It is important to note, The International Taekwondo Federation is the English translation of the Korean name actually chosen to represent Taekwondo's first International governing body.

The word, Federation or Association are both words that can be used for the Korean term, "Hae." This fact has caused some historic confusion as to the actual name of the organization originally founded in South Korea.

As time has progressed, however, the name, International Taekwondo Federation has become the name associated with the organization.

But back to the main idea... Yes, it had a lot of the same stuff that makes TSD, what TSD is, and a lot of other stuff too.
In fact there are Moo Duk Kwan Schools that use the TSD curriculum but call themselves TKD, instead of TSD, because they accepted unification.

In 1953, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan began to evolve. It changed its official title to the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association. By 1955 this organization had ten gymnasiums with its central headquarters near Seoul Station in the Jong Gu section of Dong Ja Dong. During this same year, the Korea Su Bahk Do Association hosted it first Sino-Korean martial art championship.

In 1965, the various Kwans of the modern Korean martial arts were merging under the banner of Taekwondo. Kee, Hwang resisted this trend — wishing to maintain control over his organization.

Due to this fact, two advanced students of Kee, Hwang:
1. Im, Young Tek and
2. Hong, Chong Soo broke away from their teacher, formed their own branch of Moo Duk Kwan, and became a part of the Korea Taekwondo Association.

From this act two distinct systems of self defense bearing the title Moo Duk Kwan emerged.
The first president of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan was Lee, Kang Ik, elected on 20 November 1965.

Hong, Chong Soo was elected the third President of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan on 27 July 1971.

In February of 1974 he was appointed the Vice President of Kuk Ki Won.

Many advanced instructors of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan followed the lead of breaking away from Kee, Hwang and became part of the Taekwondo branch of Moo Duk Kwan.

Though the two Moo Duk Kwans are relatively similar in style and structure, and most Korean Moo Duk Kwan Masters draw their lineage from Kee, Hwang, the two Moo Duk Kwans possess differing forms and a somewhat differing focus upon self defense. The Taekwondo branch of Moo Duk Kwan does, however, possesses substantially more members, approximately five hundred thousand.

per Scott Shaw (Taekwondo History Scott Shaw


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## Chrisoro

I posted an even longer article on the history and relation of Taekwondo (and Tang Soo Do) to Karate in this thread.


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## reeskm

Keep in mind, the history of Tang Soo Do is murky and still has a lot of loose ends, especially in the west.

The main reason is that Hwang Kee is the main source for info about the Moo Duk Kwan.
The other Kwans have mostly faded into obscurity.

I submit that Eric Madis and Alex Gillis have made the most headway into this historical research. However, so much more needs to be done. Alex Gillis is working hard to correct some issues in his first edition of "A Killing Art". Because I am a Moo Duk Kwan TSD stylist, I personally would have liked him to carefully make this distinguishment between TSD/KSD and TKD more clear. As he is TKD, he tends to use TKD more often.

Many people write TKD when in fact they mean TSD when discussing the martial history of korea post 1944 or so. I'm an advocate that they get it right and make sure that a school was actually using TSD, TKD, KSD etc. It's very important.

I also tried very hard not to rehash other history books. Scott Shaw's history of TKD is quite good, but don't believe for a minute that he's got absolutely all the facts right.

The problem is, there is an awful lot of guessing and speculation, or one sided anecdotes to what happened a long time ago, and not enough evidence. The kwans were fiercly competitive, like most martial arts groups usually are!

It's very good to know your Kwan history of your TKD school. For instance, I recently went on a business trip where a 40 year teaching veteran of simply "WTF TKD" had just had a huge grand opening. Beautiful dojang. I politely asked if I could train while I was visiting in either a white belt dobok or my dan uniform. Since my dan uniform is the classic MDK one with midnight blue trim, with no TKD affiliation what soever, I was surprised to hear a "yes, no problem - no fee" for the lesson.

It turns out he is a Chang Moo Kwan based TKD master, and it shows! Basically, his movements were identical to mine. He even did base form #1 (the "Gicho form" but he called it by a different name). Even his turns and blocks were identical to "MDK" orthodox style. But he wasn't MDK! a far cry from walking stances etc. It was classic Karate in appearance.

However, the ho sin sool he showed us incoroporated classing kung fu moves. Circular blocks, tiger mouth strike to throat, spin inside and finish with a judo take down and kill move. We did a variant where you do a classic Aikido style grab arm and throw the opponent across the matt. Also is a basic jiujitsu or judo throw.

Since Chang Moo kwan split off from the original YMCA Kwon Bop Bu of legend, his moves fit perfectly with his classic Chang Moo Kwan style. It is something I'll never forget. Kwan history matters!

Anyway, hopefully this points people in the right direction.


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## TSDTexan

If you want a good historical read.. Here are the minutes from the secretary during unification and  other great Kwon stuff


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## TSDTexan

reeskm said:


> Keep in mind, the history of Tang Soo Do is murky and still has a lot of loose ends, especially in the west.
> 
> The main reason is that Hwang Kee is the main source for info about the Moo Duk Kwan.
> The other Kwans have mostly faded into obscurity.
> 
> I submit that Eric Madis and Alex Gillis have made the most headway into this historical research. However, so much more needs to be done. Alex Gillis is working hard to correct some issues in his first edition of "A Killing Art". Because I am a Moo Duk Kwan TSD stylist, I personally would have liked him to carefully make this distinguishment between TSD/KSD and TKD more clear. As he is TKD, he tends to use TKD more often.
> 
> Many people write TKD when in fact they mean TSD when discussing the martial history of korea post 1944 or so. I'm an advocate that they get it right and make sure that a school was actually using TSD, TKD, KSD etc. It's very important.
> 
> I also tried very hard not to rehash other history books. Scott Shaw's history of TKD is quite good, but don't believe for a minute that he's got absolutely all the facts right.
> 
> The problem is, there is an awful lot of guessing and speculation, or one sided anecdotes to what happened a long time ago, and not enough evidence. The kwans were fiercly competitive, like most martial arts groups usually are!
> 
> It's very good to know your Kwan history of your TKD school. For instance, I recently went on a business trip where a 40 year teaching veteran of simply "WTF TKD" had just had a huge grand opening. Beautiful dojang. I politely asked if I could train while I was visiting in either a white belt dobok or my dan uniform. Since my dan uniform is the classic MDK one with midnight blue trim, with no TKD affiliation what soever, I was surprised to hear a "yes, no problem - no fee" for the lesson.
> 
> It turns out he is a Chang Moo Kwan based TKD master, and it shows! Basically, his movements were identical to mine. He even did base form #1 (the "Gicho form" but he called it by a different name). Even his turns and blocks were identical to "MDK" orthodox style. But he wasn't MDK! a far cry from walking stances etc. It was classic Karate in appearance.
> 
> However, the ho sin sool he showed us incoroporated classing kung fu moves. Circular blocks, tiger mouth strike to throat, spin inside and finish with a judo take down and kill move. We did a variant where you do a classic Aikido style grab arm and throw the opponent across the matt. Also is a basic jiujitsu or judo throw.
> 
> Since Chang Moo kwan split off from the original YMCA Kwon Bop Bu of legend, his moves fit perfectly with his classic Chang Moo Kwan style. It is something I'll never forget. Kwan history matters!
> 
> Anyway, hopefully this points people in the right direction.



Gicho Won Il Bu... With squared shoulders, and straight spines, and low front stances. These are absent in some UK. TSD Schools. They teach slouching spines, overrotated shoulders when punching.


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## reeskm

TSDTexan said:


> Gicho Won Il Bu... With squared shoulders, and straight spines, and low front stances. These are absent in some UK. TSD Schools. They teach slouching spines, overrotated shoulders when punching.



There are a lot of bad karate and tang soo do schools everywhere. That's not how I do the form!

In fact, I was taught by my instructor to use a half facing body position when I became a black belt. I look and feel at home in my friend's Shotokan dojo, no problem. He's modern JKA however, and so there are other differences. But slouching spines? No way! Back straight! We often use shinai or bo to demonstrate proper spine alignment. Should be very straight so you don't mess up your back.

The over-rotation problem comes in modern (usually non-korean taught) TSD schools. You see, in the MDK, Hwang Kee has always promoted using your core (dan-jun or dan-tien) and your hips to provide proper power in all your techniques. There are however some problems with most modern TSD schools:
-they (these TSD schools) think they own the exclusive right to it, or believe by bad instruction that Hwang Kee "invented" this idea
-they think this way because of a lot of misinformation over the years, and because the MDK TSD community is often very isolated
-the truth is simpler: almost all karate styles emphasize hip rotation for power at the advanced level. Hwang Kee tried to teach this to intermediate students and emphasized the hips on every single technique, but this idea is far older than he is.
- some students and instructors don't understand that the hip rotation should be quick and suttle, and instead try and over rotate massively in order to do their techniques. It is not the correct way! They are doing over-rotations thinking that this makes them better somehow, because they weren't taught properly.

Anyway, just to back up my previous claims regarding WUKO, Hwang Kee, etc, and a Wado connection:

Black Belt Magazine September 1974 page 14-15
_Phillipines to host International Karate Event_

Excerpt:
"According to reports, some of the most outstanding karate leaders of Japan and Korea will receive leadership awards during the tournament. To be honored are Gogen Yamaguchi, goju-ryu; Hironari Ohtsuka, wado-ryu; Kenwa Mabuni, shito-ryu; Masatoma and Nakayama of shotokan; Dr. Kwai Byeung Yu, jee do kwan; and Huang Kee of moo duk kwan." [sic.]

Also, this document pretty much sums it up, and speaks to an era forgotten by all modern Karate, Tang Soo Do/Kong Soo Do and Taekwondo practitioners:
http://www.fmainformative.info/FMAdigest/pdf_issues/special-editions/2007/Special-Edition_PKA.pdf

This was Hwang Kee and Yun Kwei-Byung's big middle finger to the Taekwondo association. They literally joined the "enemy": Japan and the World Union of Karatedo Organisations. You know, I tend to side with them on this. I like Karate to be Karate, and not changed and modified into something else. But I'm kind of an old die hard like that! LOL


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## reeskm

TSDTexan said:


> If you want a good historical read.. Here are the minutes from the secretary during unification and  other great Kwon stuff



Thanks for that TSD Texan. Yeah, I have that saved on my hard drive in like 7 different places. LOL!

Yes, I have issues with this document. It was written by the "victors" in Korea: the KTA and the Taekwondoists. There are still a lot of very unanswered questions and issues with the translation here. For example, what exactly does this mean, really?

"1. The doctrines and operational systems are totally wrong in the way of martial arts ideology." (p. 27)

Operating systems?

I think what they meant to say was that they did not agree that creating a sport association, or else being dominated by the current dictatorial government to unify, was the right thing to do from the point of view of a traditional martial artist.

In other words, it seems like they felt that they were selling out and being forced to unify, and this was somehow against the basic principles of Budo (Jp.) or Mudo (Kr.)
Maybe the idea that all martial artists should have the freedom to explore, create and develop new ideas and techniques as they see fit? To run their schools as they see fit? Well, we will never know.

I don't trust for a second the words of Chong Soo Hong when he "consulted" Hwang Kee over several days. I think what really happened between those two men is not said in this paper. I think Chong Soo Hong felt that support President Park's regime and directive to unify was a better way. Hwang Kee chose the hard way: the way of torture, persecution and chose to send his martial art elsewhere.


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## TSDTexan

reeskm said:


> Thanks for that TSD Texan. Yeah, I have that saved on my hard drive in like 7 different places. LOL!
> 
> Yes, I have issues with this document. It was written by the "victors" in Korea: the KTA and the Taekwondoists. There are still a lot of very unanswered questions and issues with the translation here. For example, what exactly does this mean, really?
> 
> "1. The doctrines and operational systems are totally wrong in the way of martial arts ideology." (p. 27)
> 
> Operating systems?
> 
> I think what they meant to say was that they did not agree that creating a sport association, or else being dominated by the current dictatorial government to unify, was the right thing to do from the point of view of a traditional martial artist.
> 
> In other words, it seems like they felt that they were selling out and being forced to unify, and this was somehow against the basic principles of Budo (Jp.) or Mudo (Kr.)
> Maybe the idea that all martial artists should have the freedom to explore, create and develop new ideas and techniques as they see fit? To run their schools as they see fit? Well, we will never know.
> 
> I don't trust for a second the words of Chong Soo Hong when he "consulted" Hwang Kee over several days. I think what really happened between those two men is not said in this paper. I think Chong Soo Hong felt that support President Park's regime and directive to unify was a better way. Hwang Kee chose the hard way: the way of torture, persecution and chose to send his martial art elsewhere.




Agreed on all points... But the document confirms that us MDK and JDK folks were not the powers that be... I.E. General Choice and Co.

Also, the document underscores the reality of Korean Yakuza-like gangsters who purchased Dan ranks as cover for their affairs like strongarming.

My master's master Floyd Guidry spent almost a decade learning in Korea under JC Shin... But Floyd's Korean wife gave him hell for teaching "gangster fighting". She was ashamed that he would not take a more noble and upright profession. She only knew the MDK logo as a gangster sign where she was from.

To please her, he became a sheriff deputy, truck driver and real estate guy.

Eventually He dumped her for an american gal.

She should learned to stand by her man.

As for stances, for sparring I take a forward stance, and rotate my feet from 12' oh clock to about between 2 and 3 oh clock. Its not a side stance exactly... But different.

And I can fire off like my forms very quickly, or transition to other footwork.


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## TSDTexan

General Choice and Co. Should have been  General Choi and Co. Autocorrect sucks.


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## Old Judoka

TSDTexan said:


> Yes and No.
> There were 5 main Kwans (Institutional Schools) and 4 Annex Kwans.
> There were a lot of martial arts (styles) being taught...
> 
> Overtime the art that is presently called TKD, is a conglomeration, and also distillation or specialization of all of these arts.
> Yes, it started with a bit of Korean Karate, Aikido, Judo and ended up being something else altogether.
> 
> Some history... (note... some of this is disputed)
> 
> In 1959 General Choi petitioned the Ministry of Education and the Korea Amateur Sports Association to found a new organization. Due to his close ties to Korean President Rhee, Seung Man, the acceptance of this organization was virtually assured.
> 
> General Choi coined the name Taekwondo and substantiated it in the minds of the Korean public by having the students of the art yell, "Tae Kwon," each time they executed a technique.
> 
> Though there were several names considered, and extensive debate went on, particular at the hands of Kee, Hwang, the five primary kwans:
> 
> Chung Do Kwan,
> Oh Do Kwan,
> Song Moo Kwan,
> Chang Moo Kwan,
> Ji Do Kwan, and
> Moo Duk Kwan
> 
> came together and the name Taekwondo was finally accepted due to the fact that it closely reassembled the name of the ancient Korean martial art, Tae Kyon.
> 
> As every Korean male was duty bound to serve in the military, they were each indoctrinated into the Taekwondo method of the martial arts. In 1959 the Korea Taekwondo Association was formalized.
> 
> It was not until 16 May 1961, however, when President Rhee was overthrown by a military coup de tat that the leaders of the Korean martial arts would finally be forced to formalize into one body. In fact, it was Governmental Decree #6, of this coup, where it was detailed that all schools of the Korean martial arts must come together under one banner.
> 
> The Korea Tae Soo Do Association
> Due to this decree, the leaders of the kwans again came together and attempted to formalize under one organization. Heated debated went on throughout 1961. The group emerged with the name the Korea Tae Soo Do Association.
> 
> As was the case with the Korea Kong Soo Do Association, the primary concern was formalized teaching and promotion standards. To help to achieve this, an inspection team was sent up and deployed to the various kwans in order to propagate the fact that they must use standardized Hyung (forms) and Taeryun (free sparring) techniques.
> 
> Though the Korea Tae Soo Do Association was the institution to lay the foundation for what was to become Taekwondo, there was still a large amount of infighting.
> 
> Many of the advanced members did not like the fact that they were being dictated on how they must teach and advance their students. Again, at the forefront of this controversy was Hwang Kee. On 20 July 1962, Hwang Kee wrote his initial letter withdrawing Moo Duk Kwan from the organization.
> 
> In is important to note that due to General Choi's close association with ousted President Rhee, (though he was instrument in the coup), he did not play an important role in the formation of this organization.
> 
> In fact, though he once held the pivotal positions of Commander of the 6th Korean Army and Director of Intelligence, to name only two pivotal positions, he was extremely disliked by the new Korean President, Park, Chung Hee.
> 
> General Choi attributes this to the fact that President Park did not like him because of the fact that he was once his superior officer. As such, Choi was forced to resign from the military and was sent to Malaysia in the capactiy of Ambassador.
> 
> At this point, the integration of Korean politics entered into the realm of the martial arts again. The Korea Tae Soo Do Association remained without a president for approximately one year after it was founded. Then, General Choi, Myung Shin became its first president on 28 December 1962.
> 
> The International Taekwondo Federation
> In 1965 General Choi returned from Malaysia to South Korea. Soon after that he was elected president of the Korea Tae Soo Do Association. He called together the General Assembly and proposed a vote to change the name of the organization back to the Korea Taekwondo Association. The name won by one vote.
> 
> By 1966 General Choi had formed the International Taekwondo Federation to help Taekwondo spread across the globe. In that same year, due to fear of house arrest by President Park, he left South Korea, moving himself and the headquarters of his organization to Montreal Canada.
> 
> It is important to note, The International Taekwondo Federation is the English translation of the Korean name actually chosen to represent Taekwondo's first International governing body.
> 
> The word, Federation or Association are both words that can be used for the Korean term, "Hae." This fact has caused some historic confusion as to the actual name of the organization originally founded in South Korea.
> 
> As time has progressed, however, the name, International Taekwondo Federation has become the name associated with the organization.
> 
> But back to the main idea... Yes, it had a lot of the same stuff that makes TSD, what TSD is, and a lot of other stuff too.
> In fact there are Moo Duk Kwan Schools that use the TSD curriculum but call themselves TKD, instead of TSD, because they accepted unification.
> 
> In 1953, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan began to evolve. It changed its official title to the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association. By 1955 this organization had ten gymnasiums with its central headquarters near Seoul Station in the Jong Gu section of Dong Ja Dong. During this same year, the Korea Su Bahk Do Association hosted it first Sino-Korean martial art championship.
> 
> In 1965, the various Kwans of the modern Korean martial arts were merging under the banner of Taekwondo. Kee, Hwang resisted this trend — wishing to maintain control over his organization.
> 
> Due to this fact, two advanced students of Kee, Hwang:
> 1. Im, Young Tek and
> 2. Hong, Chong Soo broke away from their teacher, formed their own branch of Moo Duk Kwan, and became a part of the Korea Taekwondo Association.
> 
> From this act two distinct systems of self defense bearing the title Moo Duk Kwan emerged.
> The first president of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan was Lee, Kang Ik, elected on 20 November 1965.
> 
> Hong, Chong Soo was elected the third President of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan on 27 July 1971.
> 
> In February of 1974 he was appointed the Vice President of Kuk Ki Won.
> 
> Many advanced instructors of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan followed the lead of breaking away from Kee, Hwang and became part of the Taekwondo branch of Moo Duk Kwan.
> 
> Though the two Moo Duk Kwans are relatively similar in style and structure, and most Korean Moo Duk Kwan Masters draw their lineage from Kee, Hwang, the two Moo Duk Kwans possess differing forms and a somewhat differing focus upon self defense. The Taekwondo branch of Moo Duk Kwan does, however, possesses substantially more members, approximately five hundred thousand.
> 
> per Scott Shaw (Taekwondo History Scott Shaw


This was a comprehensive fascinating history lesson. Previous I only understood about 10 percent (if that) of the unification movement. Great job!


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## SahBumNimRush

Just thought I would throw in my .02.  My lineage comes from the outliers of MDK TKD that teaches TSD.  I'm really uncertain as to how that all shakes out.

We use the term TKD, but we train the classic hyungs (kicho, pyung ahn, bassai, naihanchi, chinto, kang song kun, etc.) and daeryuns (1 step, 3 step, kneeling, free, etc).  I know that my KJN followed the TKD side of the MDK, and was affiliated with the KTA.  He is very quite about that history, and I have gotten the impression over the years that it was a subject that was inappropriate to inquire about.  He does not talk about his SBN (the only thing that I know is that his name was KIM).  My KJN is listed on the MDK family tree in Kang Uk Lee's book, but I have very little information about my history beyond my own KJN.


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## Bruce7

reeskm said:


> Your sabonim is right. Tangsoodo was the commonly used word before Taekwondo existed.
> 
> The name "Taekwondo" was proposed as a new name for "TangSooDo" and "KongSooDo" by General Choi Hong Hee (and possibly others in the Chung Do Kwan) in 1955. Before then, it did not exist.
> 
> From 1955-1965 various high ranking Tangsoodo (or Kongsoodo) leaders tried to come up with a new name for Korean Karate or tangsoodo, because of its connection to China and Japan.
> 
> So basically, Tangsoodo is the ancestor art to Taekwondo. The name was still being used into the 1970s and beyond by Korean and American instructors because many people don't know what Tangsoodo or Taekwondo is. But the western public knew exactly what "Karate" is!
> 
> Even so, people still use the terms Kongsoodo and Tangsoodo today in Korea, but not very many people still do, unless they teach traditional Tangsoodo as it existed in the 1960s. If you learn the "Pyung-Ahn" forms as a gup student, you are learning Tangsoodo!
> 
> Kongsoodo and Tangsoodo is Korean for the same Chinese characters as Karate (both Open Hand Way and China Tang Dynasty Hand Way).
> 
> There is tons of info on the internet about this. It seems a lot of Taekwondo stylists are trying to get back to their roots of non-sport (martial) aspects of their arts and styles. The old Kwan system was full of beautiful traditions and aspects that were lost or started to fade when everybody was shooting for the Olypic dream in the 1980s.


I did Pyung-ahn forms in the 1970 so I was doing Tang So Do/Moo Duk Kwan, not Taekwondo?


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## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> I did Pyung-ahn forms in the 1970 so I was doing Tang So Do/Moo Duk Kwan, not Taekwondo?


We are labeled and promoted as a WT/Kukkiwon TKD school but have used the Pyung Ahn Poomsae as our primary set. We also learn the Taegueks, Palgwae, Kukkiwon BB forms and several of the MKD TSD BB forms. There is a list of BB forms here on the forum under the thread TSD/TKD poomsae you may find helpful. Please comment on any forms other forms you know of to add to the list.


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## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> We are labeled and promoted as a WT/Kukkiwon TKD school but have used the Pyung Ahn Poomsae as our primary set. We also learn the Taegueks, Palgwae, Kukkiwon BB forms and several of the MKD TSD BB forms. There is a list of BB forms here on the forum under the thread TSD/TKD poomsae you may find helpful. Please comment on any forms other forms you know of to add to the list.


I remember the Palgwae, but I don't remember the Taegueks.


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> I remember the Palgwae, but I don't remember the Taegueks.


Your training may predate them. The development of the Taeguek poomsae started around 1971 when eight of the nine kwans got together to create the forms set. So they are five or six years newer than the Palgwae and Yudanja poomsae.


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## kitkatninja

Bruce7 said:


> I did Pyung-ahn forms in the 1970 so I was doing Tang So Do/Moo Duk Kwan, not Taekwondo?



Chances are that you were doing TSD, however not 100% as Pyung Ahn forms are used by Traditional TKD - Chung Do Kwan (according to that site) as well as TSD and Chun Kuk Do (plus alot of Japanese and Okinawan karate)...  Best bet is take a look at your old certs or try to find your old instructor, his lineage (a club/association with him in it as part of their lineage), etc...


----------



## Bruce7

kitkatninja said:


> Chances are that you were doing TSD, however not 100% as Pyung Ahn forms are used by Traditional TKD - Chung Do Kwan (according to that site) as well as TSD and Chun Kuk Do (plus alot of Japanese and Okinawan karate)...  Best bet is take a look at your old certs or try to find your old instructor, his lineage (a club/association with him in it as part of their lineage), etc...



My GM history is hard to follow, I have read where he came to the US in 1957 TSD/MDK, yet he had karate on the windows, called it taekwondo in the school, the older students called it MDK. He was friends with the General from the Korean War so he join ITF, then when the general wanted relations with North Korea he quit the ITF.  He was a signature for the US to join WTF  pictures of that and was the head coach for the first American team to South Korea in the early 1970's. 
From all the information I have gather, Jack Hwang was teaching TSD/MDK in the early 1970, and was just calling it Taekwondo
The forms I learn were Pyung Ahn and Plagwae, is the best proof I was taught TSD/MDK and not TKD/MDK.
He may have taught Taeguek  and other TKD forms after I left, he also may have drop the MDK name after I left his school.
Jack Hwang has passed away. Now his school is called Jack Hwang's Martial Arts and they teach Taekwondo. No mention of MDK.


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## Dirty Dog

kitkatninja said:


> Chances are that you were doing TSD, however not 100% as Pyung Ahn forms are used by Traditional TKD - Chung Do Kwan (according to that site) as well as TSD and Chun Kuk Do (plus alot of Japanese and Okinawan karate)...



Those forms were used by pretty much all the Kwan, to some extent. But that was prior to the unification and implementation of the name TKD. Why? Because most of the founders had at least some of their training in Shotokan. After the development of the Palgwae forms, the Kwan that stayed with the KTA (the unification...) switched to those forms. And, eventually, the taegeuk forms, unless they split off prior to that time.
Basically, if you learned the Pyung Ahn forms AFTER  the unification, you were studying TSD, since GM HWANG, Kee, was the only major Kwan to split off (and he only took about 1/3 of the MDK with him) to continue teaching TSD. As far I have ever found, the only system using those forms AFTER the implementation of the Palgwae forms is Tang Soo Do (later renamed Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan.
And given that his Master was MDK, I think there's absolutely zero doubt that he was training in TSD.



> Best bet is take a look at your old certs or try to find your old instructor, his lineage (a club/association with him in it as part of their lineage), etc...



Old certs would be awesome (and awesome to see scans of...) but his instructor passed a few years ago.
Bruce7, on a side note, I do have a copy of a photo with my KJN (GM Wang H "Bobby" Kim) and your Master. If memory serves, if was taken in the 70's. If you'd like a copy, PM me and I'll send it to you.


----------



## kitkatninja

Dirty Dog said:


> ...Old certs would be awesome (and awesome to see scans of...) but his instructor passed a few years ago.
> Bruce7, on a side note, I do have a copy of a photo with my KJN (GM Wang H "Bobby" Kim) and your Master. If memory serves, if was taken in the 70's. If you'd like a copy, PM me and I'll send it to you.



That's cool


----------



## TSDTexan

Another way to view your lineage, tkd vs tsd. TSD guys were given a dan bon number. (this was exclusive to the MDK, or it was exclusive to the Hwang Ke lineage of the MDK. 

This was fought over in Korea, and after some court battles, the MDK/HWANG family retained ownership of the dan bon list. Other groups who had an incomplete danbon list were court order to cease and desist attempts to claim the dan bon list, and begin using their own lists/numbering system.
Even the KKW had to let go of their danbon copy and begin a new list.

So tkd guys almost never got a MDK dan bon.... except for those who earned their chodan prior to the unification and subsequent MDK split. (or in extremely rare cases they learned the mdk curriculum and tested out in the under the authority of tangsoo/subakdo side of MDK, but remained affiliated or under a TKD name/organization/association/hae.)


----------



## Bruce7

TSDTexan said:


> Another way to view your lineage, tkd vs tsd. TSD guys were given a dan bon number. (this was exclusive to the MDK, or it was exclusive to the Hwang Ke lineage of the MDK.
> 
> This was fought over in Korea, and after some court battles, the MDK/HWANG family retained ownership of the dan bon list. Other groups who had an incomplete danbon list were court order to cease and desist attempts to claim the dan bon list, and begin using their own lists/numbering system.
> Even the KKW had to let go of their danbon copy and begin a new list.
> 
> So tkd guys almost never got a MDK dan bon.... except for those who earned their chodan prior to the unification and subsequent MDK split. (or in extremely rare cases they learned the mdk curriculum and tested out in the under the authority of tangsoo/subakdo side of MDK, but remained affiliated or under a TKD name/organization/association/hae.)



Is their a website that has the MDK dan bon list.  GM Jack Hwang was a black belt when he came to America in *1957*, so should be on the list.


----------



## dvcochran

TSDTexan said:


> Another way to view your lineage, tkd vs tsd. TSD guys were given a dan bon number. (this was exclusive to the MDK, or it was exclusive to the Hwang Ke lineage of the MDK.
> 
> This was fought over in Korea, and after some court battles, the MDK/HWANG family retained ownership of the dan bon list. Other groups who had an incomplete danbon list were court order to cease and desist attempts to claim the dan bon list, and begin using their own lists/numbering system.
> Even the KKW had to let go of their danbon copy and begin a new list.
> 
> So tkd guys almost never got a MDK dan bon.... except for those who earned their chodan prior to the unification and subsequent MDK split. (or in extremely rare cases they learned the mdk curriculum and tested out in the under the authority of tangsoo/subakdo side of MDK, but remained affiliated or under a TKD name/organization/association/hae.)


I am in the latter boat. I have both MDK and Kukkiwon certification. We still use Pyung Ahn poomsae as our first forms set.


----------



## TSDTexan

Bruce7 said:


> Is their a website that has the MDK dan bon list.  GM Jack Hwang was a black belt when he came to America in *1957*, so should be on the list.


 try this... it is incomplete.

Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Dan Bon | 기도권 무승 극제


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## Bruce7

TSDTexan said:


> try this... it is incomplete.
> 
> Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Dan Bon | 기도권 무승 극제


Thank you for trying. Given his age and coming to america in 1957, his number would have to be under a 100.


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## TSDTexan

Bruce7 said:


> Thank you for trying. Given his age and coming to america in 1957, his number would have to be under a 100.



Number 8 or number 11 could be him.


----------



## dvcochran

TSDTexan said:


> try this... it is incomplete.
> 
> Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Dan Bon | 기도권 무승 극제


To give me a reference point, #1 Kim, Un Chang has a date of 1948 beside the name. Is that the date he received his rank or is that a death date?


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## TSDTexan

dvcochran said:


> To give me a reference point, #1 Kim, Un Chang has a date of 1948 beside the name. Is that the date he received his rank or is that a death date?


the date he earned the first MDK dan.


----------



## Bruce7

TSDTexan said:


> Number 8 or number 11 could be him.



I found more information from Jack Hwang: Taekwondo - USAdojo.com

I was right about TSD, but may have been wrong about his low dan number for MDK. 
Jack Hwang studied Yun Moo Kwan before studying MDK.
I know he came to America in 1957.
I have read other articles that said he was a pioneer in American MDK.

Jack Hwang was born on July 3, 1931 and he began his study of the Korean martial arts in 1941. His uncle, Soun Gyu Hwang, was head of the Pusan Police Force, and he was a big influence over Jack’s love of the martial arts and spurred him on in his training, requiring constant and intensive practice.* In 1945 Jack Hwang began to train at the Yun Moo Kwan School in Pusan*. From 1950 through 1955, Hwang utilized his skills in the Army of the Republic of South Korea, where, through his distinguished service, he achieved the rank of Captain. 
In 1957 Jack Hwang immigrated to the United States.


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## TSDTexan

Bruce7 said:


> I found more information from Jack Hwang: Taekwondo - USAdojo.com
> 
> I was right about TSD, but may have been wrong about his low dan number for MDK.
> Jack Hwang studied Yun Moo Kwan before studying MDK.
> I know he came to America in 1957.
> I have read other articles that said he was a pioneer in American MDK.
> 
> Jack Hwang was born on July 3, 1931 and he began his study of the Korean martial arts in 1941. His uncle, Soun Gyu Hwang, was head of the Pusan Police Force, and he was a big influence over Jack’s love of the martial arts and spurred him on in his training, requiring constant and intensive practice.* In 1945 Jack Hwang began to train at the Yun Moo Kwan School in Pusan*. From 1950 through 1955, Hwang utilized his skills in the Army of the Republic of South Korea, where, through his distinguished service, he achieved the rank of Captain.
> In 1957 Jack Hwang immigrated to the United States.



Yeah... no word back from the MDK on him. I think they may have just acknowledged his YMK chodan, rather having awarded it.


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## Bruce7

TSDTexan said:


> Yeah... no word back from the MDK on him. I think they may have just acknowledged his YMK chodan, rather having awarded it.


Thank you


----------



## Steven Lee

Tangsoo just means Tode, Okinawan Te. Japan, Korea, China pronounce Chinese characters in different dialects. It's just Tode or Tote, Okinawan Te.

Also, I don't know what Hwa Rang Do & Kuk Sool Won are, but Yudo is Judo, Kumdo is Kendo. Take those off Korean labels.

Korean has had sword and spear fightings, which were recorded in Muyedobotongji textbook (18ki and 24ki) 300 years ago. Gichang & Bongookgum are Korean weapon sports. http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2

"기창(旗槍). 단창이라고도 불렸으며 고려시대에 임금의 수레를 호위하는 군사들이 익혔던 무예이다."

"본국검(本國劍). 이덕무는 본국검을 신라의 화랑 황창이 창안한 검보라고 소개하였다."

As for barehand fighting sports, Korean has had Ssireum, Subak, Taekkyeon, Sibak (this street fighting sport includes punching and it's also in Taekkyeon), Gyeoksul (powerful North Korean martial art which started as Subak but upgraded to Sibak from Byungin Yoon's martial art experiences). Also, Korean has had power circus Charyuk/Kihapsul./Kiaijutsu which includes Breaking/Tameshiwari


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## TSDTexan

Steven Lee said:


> Tangsoo just means Tode, Okinawan Te. Japan, Korea, China pronounce Chinese characters in different dialects. It's just Tode or Tote, Okinawan Te.
> 
> Also, I don't know what Hwa Rang Do & Kuk Sool Won are, but Yudo is Judo, Kumdo is Kendo. Take those off Korean labels.
> 
> Korean has had sword and spear fightings, which were recorded in Muyedobotongji textbook (18ki and 24ki) 300 years ago. Gichang & Bongookgum are Korean weapon sports. http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2
> 
> "기창(旗槍). 단창이라고도 불렸으며 고려시대에 임금의 수레를 호위하는 군사들이 익혔던 무예이다."
> 
> "본국검(本國劍). 이덕무는 본국검을 신라의 화랑 황창이 창안한 검보라고 소개하였다."
> 
> As for barehand fighting sports, Korean has had Ssireum, Subak, Taekkyeon, Sibak (this street fighting sport includes punching and it's also in Taekkyeon), Gyeoksul (powerful North Korean martial art which started as Subak but upgraded to Sibak from Byungin Yoon's martial art experiences). Also, Korean has had power circus Charyuk/Kihapsul./Kiaijutsu which includes Breaking/Tameshiwari




Thanks for voicing your opinion. You seem kinna new. Stick around. You might like it.


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## Bruce7

reeskm said:


> Keep in mind, the history of Tang Soo Do is murky and still has a lot of loose ends, especially in the west.
> 
> The main reason is that Hwang Kee is the main source for info about the Moo Duk Kwan.
> The other Kwans have mostly faded into obscurity.
> 
> I submit that Eric Madis and Alex Gillis have made the most headway into this historical research. However, so much more needs to be done. Alex Gillis is working hard to correct some issues in his first edition of "A Killing Art". Because I am a Moo Duk Kwan TSD stylist, I personally would have liked him to carefully make this distinguishment between TSD/KSD and TKD more clear. As he is TKD, he tends to use TKD more often.
> 
> Many people write TKD when in fact they mean TSD when discussing the martial history of korea post 1944 or so. I'm an advocate that they get it right and make sure that a school was actually using TSD, TKD, KSD etc. It's very important.
> 
> I also tried very hard not to rehash other history books. Scott Shaw's history of TKD is quite good, but don't believe for a minute that he's got absolutely all the facts right.
> 
> The problem is, there is an awful lot of guessing and speculation, or one sided anecdotes to what happened a long time ago, and not enough evidence. The kwans were fiercly competitive, like most martial arts groups usually are!
> 
> It's very good to know your Kwan history of your TKD school. For instance, I recently went on a business trip where a 40 year teaching veteran of simply "WTF TKD" had just had a huge grand opening. Beautiful dojang. I politely asked if I could train while I was visiting in either a white belt dobok or my dan uniform. Since my dan uniform is the classic MDK one with midnight blue trim, with no TKD affiliation what soever, I was surprised to hear a "yes, no problem - no fee" for the lesson.
> 
> It turns out he is a Chang Moo Kwan based TKD master, and it shows! Basically, his movements were identical to mine. He even did base form #1 (the "Gicho form" but he called it by a different name). Even his turns and blocks were identical to "MDK" orthodox style. But he wasn't MDK! a far cry from walking stances etc. It was classic Karate in appearance.
> 
> However, the ho sin sool he showed us incoroporated classing kung fu moves. Circular blocks, tiger mouth strike to throat, spin inside and finish with a judo take down and kill move. We did a variant where you do a classic Aikido style grab arm and throw the opponent across the matt. Also is a basic jiujitsu or judo throw.
> 
> Since Chang Moo kwan split off from the original YMCA Kwon Bop Bu of legend, his moves fit perfectly with his classic Chang Moo Kwan style. It is something I'll never forget. Kwan history matters!
> 
> Anyway, hopefully this points people in the right direction.



I have learn a lot from you, TSDTexan and my own resource,
the problem is the more I learn, the more confessed I get.


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## Acronym

Tang Soo Do is indeed the precursor to TaeKwonDo. This gets more complicated in modern times due to the establishment of the Kukkiwon and their rule-sets for the Olympics, but prior to that, there was no meaningful distinction between the two on a technical level. Only katas. 

The one thing Tang Soo Do people refuses to this day  is to adopt Taekwondo patterns.


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## dvcochran

Acronym said:


> Tang Soo Do is indeed the precursor to TaeKwonDo. This gets more complicated in modern times due to the establishment of the Kukkiwon and their rule-sets for the Olympics, but prior to that, there was no meaningful distinction between the two on a technical level. Only katas.
> 
> The one thing Tang Soo Do people refuses to this day  is to adopt Taekwondo patterns.


And why should they? TSD is it's own entity even though there is overlap with traditional TKD.


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## Acronym

dvcochran said:


> And why should they? TSD is it's own entity even though there is overlap with traditional TKD.



Not to be too melodramatic but they use Japanese and Chinese katas for a body mechanical Korean system, which I think is a betrayal. I don't view it as an own entity. If you put a TSD practioner outside of a Kata context, he is doing the same techniques as a Chang Hon practitioner, because TaeKwondo was a mere name change, alongside new Korean katas.

What happened is that some of the old masters were reluctant to adopt the new Chang Hon forms  due to politics. If they weren't, there wouldn't have been any Tang Soo Do labelled schools left, because that is the main difference.

You may find that a TSD practitioner is better at X, but this is due to a difference of emphasis, not content.


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## dancingalone

Acronym said:


> If you put a TSD practioner outside of a Kata context, he is doing the same techniques as a Chang Hon practitioner, because TaeKwondo was a mere name change, alongside new Korean katas.



Is he?  It's been years since I've been active on this board but I recall reading some posts written by Grandmaster Weiss about the Chang Hon system.  He was quite adamant that General Choi had very detailed specifications for each move or basic.  That doesn't mean that a Tang Soo Do practitioner can't have the same level of detail in his own learning, but I don't think TSD is as cataloged and documented to the degree that General Choi's system is.




Acronym said:


> What happened is that some of the old masters were reluctant to adopt the new Chang Hon forms  due to politics. If they weren't, there wouldn't have been any Tang Soo Do labelled schools left, because that is the main difference.
> 
> You may find that a TSD practitioner is better at X, but this is due to a difference of emphasis, not content.



I will disagree with you with the caveat that not all Tang Soo Do is the same.  The groups that retain a greater connection to Hwang Kee's Chinese influences are softer and I do discern a different in their movement from taekwondo people.


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## Acronym

dancingalone said:


> Is he?  .



Outside of kata, there is no fundamental difference. I can assure you of that since some of my idols growing up did Tang Soo Do and they kick exactly the same way we were taught in ITF.


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## dancingalone

Acronym said:


> Outside of kata, there is no fundamental difference. I can assure you of that since some of my idols growing up did Tang Soo Do and they kick exactly the same way we were taught in ITF.



I believe that is your experience.  I would suggest that your experience is not universal however.


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## Acronym

dancingalone said:


> I believe that is your experience.  I would suggest that your experience is not universal however.



Maybe there's another obscure branch of TSD that I haven't encountered, but the ones I do know of chamber and engage the hips exactly the same way when kicking. That is not true of Shotokan karate however, as many who do both can attest.  ITF kicking is the same in Sweden as it is in Bangladesh.


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## Acronym

14:10 This is exactly the same way we do it, within a spectrum of varying flexibility.

And since nobody in karate/TKD fights out of kata stances and applications, it is fundamentally the same art outside of those kata and bunkais.


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## dancingalone

Acronym said:


> 14:10 This is exactly the same way we do it, within a spectrum of varying flexibility.
> 
> And since nobody in karate/TKD fights out of kata stances and applications, it is fundamentally the same art outside of those kata and bunkais.



If you're coming from a sparring approach, I think I would agree with what you say.  Consider the soft side however and how one might train the ability to push with force and possibly try to amplify it with your opponent's force.  And then think about what if your self-defense drills were embued with such practices.  Would that be different than ITF?  It is in my opinon.

For lack of a better word, some tang soo do groups are more internal than others.  I would not use obscure to describe their size and influence either.

But your own personal experience is your own personal experience.  I would never dream to argue with you on YOUR own observations.


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## Gerry Seymour

Acronym said:


> Tang Soo Do is indeed the precursor to TaeKwonDo. This gets more complicated in modern times due to the establishment of the Kukkiwon and their rule-sets for the Olympics, but prior to that, there was no meaningful distinction between the two on a technical level. Only katas.
> 
> The one thing Tang Soo Do people refuses to this day  is to adopt Taekwondo patterns.


This thread is more than 18 months old.


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## Acronym

dancingalone said:


> If you're coming from a sparring approach, I think I would agree with what you say.  Consider the soft side however and how one might train the ability to push with force and possibly try to amplify it with your opponent's force.  And then think about what if your self-defense drills were embued with such practices.  Would that be different than ITF?  It is in my opinon.
> 
> For lack of a better word, some tang soo do groups are more internal than others.  I would not use obscure to describe their size and influence either.
> 
> But your own personal experience is your own personal experience.  I would never dream to argue with you on YOUR own observations.



You're being very abstract. What do you mean concretely would be different in a TSD self defense class from ITF? And which of the two have you actually trained?


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## dancingalone

Acronym said:


> You're being very abstract. What do you mean concretely would be different in a TSD self defense class from ITF? And which of the two have you actually trained?



I don't mean to be abstract.  I have a chodan in TSD but it's really an honorary rank.  Sadan in kukkiwon TKD,  shichidan in Goju-ryu, 4th dan in aikido.  Not bragging, it just means I am old and have accumulated time on the mat.  I'm definitely past my prime as a martial artist though the mind is still clearer than ever.

I have shared enough with people who train in Korean karate to know there is a WIDE diversity there.  It's very important to ask about lineage and forms and actual drills trained to understand what it is that people do.  Remember that Hwang Kee studied some tai chi chuan and tan tui and perhaps some long fist before he learned karate (likely from a book, though he shared training time later with Won Kuk Lee).  Given that, it should not be hard to visualize some tang soo do people retaining or re-delving back into the Chinese art side that would have softer expressions of their art than perhaps what you have seen yourself.


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## Acronym

Hwang Jang Lee, mr Taekwondo. Publisher of a Taekwondo instructional video in the 80s. Guess which board of examinators he sits with? Tang Soo Do! Cynthia Rothrock acted with him and then got graded by him to 7th degree in TSD.

So the old school guys will turn to Tang Soo Do most likely if ITF is not around in their area (a distinct possibility believe it or not). I would too.

Or they even reject todays ITF too


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## Acronym

dancingalone said:


> I don't mean to be abstract.  I have a chodan in TSD but it's really an honorary rank.  Sadan in kukkiwon TKD,  shichidan in Goju-ryu, 4th dan in aikido.  Not bragging, it just means I am old and have accumulated time on the mat.  I'm definitely past my prime as a martial artist though the mind is still clearer than ever.
> 
> I have shared enough with people who train in Korean karate to know there is a WIDE diversity there.  It's very important to ask about lineage and forms and actual drills trained to understand what it is that people do.  Remember that Hwang Kee studied some tai chi chuan and tan tui and perhaps some long fist before he learned karate (likely from a book, though he shared training time later with Won Kuk Lee).  Given that, it should not be hard to visualize some tang soo do people retaining or re-delving back into the Chinese art side that would have softer expressions of their art than perhaps what you have seen yourself.



But is this direct Chinese kung fu source something you find in TSD beyond the chinese Katas?


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## dancingalone

Acronym said:


> But is this direct Chinese kung fu source something you find in TSD beyond the chiness Katas?


Well yes.  If it is a school that teaches things like sticky hands or hand conditioning/iron palm, it is a Tang Soo Do that retains more Chinese influence.  If they study the Sip Sam Seh and try to embue their Japanese origin kata or their self-defense drills with the same ideas, that is another example of Chinese influence.


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## Bruce7

It is more about the teacher than the name. 40 years ago the forms I learn were TSD in a TKD school.
He also taught things from other martial artist in TKD and other martcial arts.
Even though he did not follow TKD exacting teaching, he was the head coach for americia's first TKD team in Korea in 1973.
If he had thought ITF forms were better, I thing we would have been doing them.
Since he had been friends with the general.


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## Acronym

dancingalone said:


> Well yes.  If it is a school that teaches things like sticky hands or hand conditioning/iron palm, it is a Tang Soo Do that retains more Chinese influence.  If they study the Sip Sam Seh and try to embue their Japanese origin kata or their self-defense drills with the same ideas, that is another example of Chinese influence.



Fair enough. But there are ITF schools that teach BJJ, and I still consider that school ITF style Taekwondo without hesitation because the techniques we do share, we perform the same.

In much the same way, I consider Tang Soo Do TaeKwondo, and whatever addition they might have stemming from Chinese Kung Fu does not change that to me. It's just "the same plus X."


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## Acronym

Bruce7 said:


> It is more about the teacher than the name. 40 years ago the forms I learn were TSD in a TKD school.
> He also taught things from other martial artist in TKD and other martcial arts.
> Even though he did not follow TKD exacting teaching, he was the head coach for americia's first TKD team in Korea in 1973.
> If he had thought ITF forms were better, I thing we would have been doing them.
> Since he had been friends with the general.



Yup. Chois forms was actually a flop until the ITF was established despite his victory with the name change. A lot people still used TSD forms even though they had switched name to TaeKwonDo.


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## dancingalone

Acronym said:


> In much the same way, I consider Tang Soo Do TaeKwondo, and whatever addition they might have stemming from Chinese Kung Fu does not change that to me. It's just "the same plus X."



Tang Soo Do is just the Korean way of saying the same characters that write out "Kara-te".  It's very generic.  You really have to ask about lineage, forms, and actual drills regularly used to determine the type of training a TSD person has.

But certainly, TSD and TKD share a lot of the same histories and origins and are close in DNA to each other.  It's just that depending on the particular TSD school (perhaps the TKD school too - there's also significant variation there IMO), this could be the difference between being a half-uncle or being a full blooded brother.


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## dancingalone

Bruce7 said:


> It is more about the teacher than the name. 40 years ago the forms I learn were TSD in a TKD school.
> He also taught things from other martial artist in TKD and other martcial arts.
> Even though he did not follow TKD exacting teaching, he was the head coach for americia's first TKD team in Korea in 1973.
> If he had thought ITF forms were better, I thing we would have been doing them.
> Since he had been friends with the general.



For fun sometimes I do my taekwondo poomsae Goju-ryu style.  It is an interesting experiment in mindset change.


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## Acronym

dancingalone said:


> But certainly, TSD and TKD share a lot of the same histories and origins and are close in DNA to each other.  It's just that depending on the particular TSD school (perhaps the TKD school too - there's also significant variation there IMO), this could be the difference between being a half-uncle or being a full blooded brother.



My dear sir, TaeKwonDo was a name change done to Tang Soo Do schools (amongst others). To say Tang Soo Do is not TaeKwonDo is akin to denying that Lexus is Toyota...  It's just that not all Tang Soo Do schools agreed to it. That is the simple way of putting it.


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## Acronym

2:18

"It wasn't yet called TaeKwonDo"

Chuck is being simplistic for the audience but that is the truth.


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## Acronym

Tang Soo Do practitioners are my TaeKwonDo brothers and sisters whether they accept it or not.

Sorry if that offends.


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## dancingalone

Acronym said:


> My dear sir, TaeKwonDo was a name change done to Tang Soo Do schools (amongst others). To say Tang Soo Do is not TaeKwonDo is akin to denying that Lexus is Toyota...  It's just that not all Tang Soo Do schools agreed to it. That is the simple way of putting it.



I know that.  I'm glad you do too.  Without being insulting, you seem to be young, and I don't have the energy to discuss the nuances implicit in this conversation that would be informative for the readers out there, so I will bow out.

Peace.


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## Acronym

dancingalone said:


> I know that.  I'm glad you do too.  Without being insulting, you seem to be young, and I don't have the energy to discuss the nuances implicit in this conversation that would be informative for the readers out there, so I will bow out.
> 
> Peace.



Coming from the guy posting a thread entitled *Is TSD Korean? *

You do that and I'll keep enjoying "share similar histories". Good one!


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## dancingalone

Peace.


Acronym said:


> Coming from the guy posting a thread entitled *Is TSD Korean? *
> 
> You do that and I'll keep enjoying "share similar histories". Good one!



Peace, friend.


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## Gerry Seymour

Acronym said:


> Tang Soo Do practitioners are my TaeKwonDo brothers and sisters whether they accept it or not.
> 
> Sorry if that offends.


So, even if they assure you they do things differently, you're the arbiter of that?


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## Acronym

gpseymour said:


> So, even if they assure you they do things differently, you're the arbiter of that?



Yes. This IS TaeKwonDo.


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## Gerry Seymour

Acronym said:


> Yes. This IS TaeKwonDo.


That may be. You're asserting that all TSD is like that. I know at least one school that wasn't as far back as 25 years ago. Much closer to Shotokan Karate in look and feel, though more direct than the Shotokan I've seen (angles of footwork were more acute).

But go ahead and assume you've seen it all.


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## dvcochran

Acronym said:


> Yes. This IS TaeKwonDo.


What is in the video is Extremely more traditional TKD than the Kukkiwon/WT TKD you have made many references to. It doesn't look that at all. Any variant of TKD and TSD are different animals.


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## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> That may be. You're asserting that all TSD is like that. I know at least one school that wasn't as far back as 25 years ago. Much closer to Shotokan Karate in look and feel, though more direct than the Shotokan I've seen (angles of footwork were more acute).
> 
> But go ahead and assume you've seen it all.


Agree. There are three TSD schools in an adjoining county. It is quite prevalent in east TN and Arkansas.


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## Acronym

dvcochran said:


> What is in the video is Extremely more traditional TKD than the Kukkiwon/WT TKD you have made many references to. It doesn't look that at all. Any variant of TKD and TSD are different animals.



I made reference to ITF, not Kukki. I specifically said Kukki complicated the matter due to their Olympic sport


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## Acronym

gpseymour said:


> That may be. You're asserting that all TSD is like that. I know at least one school that wasn't as far back as 25 years ago. Much closer to Shotokan Karate in look and feel, though more direct than the Shotokan I've seen (angles of footwork were more acute).
> 
> But go ahead and assume you've seen it all.



There's different emphasis between schools.The fundamentals are still the same, in particular hip leverage.


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## dvcochran

Acronym said:


> There's different emphasis between schools.The fundamentals are still the same, in particular hip leverage.


Maybe in a gross sense of the term fundamentals. But the specifics are quite different.


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## Acronym

dvcochran said:


> Maybe in a gross sense of the term fundamentals. But the specifics are quite different.



I don't know what you are talking about. Everything they did there is.covered in Kukki TKD as well


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## dvcochran

Acronym said:


> I don't know what you are talking about. Everything they did there is.covered in Kukki TKD as well


'Gross sense' just means overall. 
For example, all derivatives of TKD I have had experience with do a side kick. However, each system teaches and does them differently. This is even true from school to school sometimes.


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## Acronym

dvcochran said:


> 'Gross sense' just means overall.
> For example, all derivatives of TKD I have had experience with do a side kick. However, each system teaches and does them differently. This is even true from school to school sometimes.



I was referring to the clip.


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## Acronym

[]


dvcochran said:


> 'Gross sense' just means overall.
> For example, all derivatives of TKD I have had experience with do a side kick. However, each system teaches and does them differently. This is even true from school to school sometimes.



Show me a Taekwondo system that promotes stiff Shotokan style roundhouse kicks.


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## dvcochran

Acronym said:


> []
> 
> 
> Show me a Taekwondo system that promotes stiff Shotokan style roundhouse kicks.


In comparison to others, I would have to say ATA and ITF. The latter is quite similar to Shotokan. I have no idea where you get the "stiff kicks" in Shotokan. You need to go back to your Youtube training and research some Shotokan tournaments.


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## Acronym

dvcochran said:


> In comparison to others, I would have to say ATA and ITF. The latter is quite similar to Shotokan. I have no idea where you get the "stiff kicks" in Shotokan. You need to go back to your Youtube training and research some Shotokan tournaments.



You clearly know nothing about ITF.

Nobody who is proficent kicks like this with his hips ans torso. And that’s a late chief instructor of JKA


 chief instructor of Shotokan View attachment 23112


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## Acronym

Here's an ITF grandmaster


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## dvcochran

Acronym said:


> You clearly know nothing about ITF.
> 
> Nobody who is proficent kicks like this with his hips ans torso. And that’s a late chief instructor of JKAView attachment 23113 chief instructor of Shotokan View attachment 23112


I don't hear your point. That is  Very common kick geometry in virtually all styles for some people. Besides, even if that is the 'chief instructor' it is a picture (possibly a pose) of only one person. No sampling there at all.


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## Acronym




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## Acronym




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## Acronym

Notice a difference? I'm a Red belt. And that’s a master above me, In Shotokan.


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## dvcochran

Acronym said:


> View attachment 23116


Sure there are differences in the two snapshots. They are shot from different angles and possibly different points in the kick. I am not even certain they are the same type of kick. Assuming they are, you make my point the different styles do the same kick differently.


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## Acronym

dvcochran said:


> Sure there are differences in the two snapshots. They are shot from different angles and possibly different points in the kick. I am not even certain they are the same type of kick. Assuming they are, you make my point the different styles do the same kick differently.



I did not compare myself to other Taekwondo styles


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## Acronym

dvcochran said:


> Sure there are differences in the two snapshots. They are shot from different angles and possibly different points in the kick. I am not even certain they are the same type of kick. Assuming they are, you make my point the different styles do the same kick differently.



My bad. The first one had so poor hip mechanics that it looked like a mawashi geri. It was meant as side snap kick. The poster had a wrong label

Here's how he did a mawashi geri


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## dvcochran

Acronym said:


> My bad. The first one had so poor hip mechanics that it looked like a mawashi geri. It was meant as side snap kick. The poster had a wrong label
> 
> Here's how he did a mawashi geri
> 
> View attachment 23117


Okay, so he is throwing a roundhouse kick. Like I said different styles, even and systems within styles, throw the same named kick differently. 
Again, I do not hear your point.


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## Acronym

dvcochran said:


> Okay, so he is throwing a roundhouse kick. Like I said different styles, even and systems within styles, throw the same named kick differently.
> Again, I do not hear your point.



Taekwondo does not throw it like that, including Tang Soo Do, when it comes to hips. It's very obvious.


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## Buka




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## paitingman

Acronym said:


> My bad. The first one had so poor hip mechanics that it looked like a mawashi geri. It was meant as side snap kick. The poster had a wrong label
> 
> Here's how he did a mawashi geri
> 
> View attachment 23117


I see this kick in taekwondo training from time to time. I've never been shown it as its own distinct technique. It's just a variation of a shorter range roundhouse.

Very strong hip position that requires less hip flexibility than what I would call the typical, but you seem to think it's the only, tkd long range roundhouse kick.

If you execute the mawashi geri like in the photo you shared in a skilled tkd environment, many times you get kicked in the torso twice before you put your foot down. 
In the TKD setting where your opponent usually wants to create distance and unload strong kicks as quickly as possible, body position like mawashi geri may leave you vulnerable. 

But in karate setting, where your opponent will likely stay close to you and try to punch and grab you, mawashi geri finds the faces of many martial artists all the time (especially) if you can grab them while kicking. 

Good types of roundhouse for various situation. 

I've trained with skilled ITF, ITA, ATA, WT(F), and Tang Soo Do fighters and have seen them throw mawashi geri when the angle was right for it. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## Acronym

paitingman said:


> I see this kick in taekwondo training from time to time. I've never been shown it as its own distinct technique. It's just a variation of a shorter range roundhouse.
> 
> Very strong hip position that requires less hip flexibility than what I would call the typical, but you seem to think it's the only, tkd long range roundhouse kick.
> 
> If you execute the mawashi geri like in the photo you shared in a skilled tkd environment, many times you get kicked in the torso twice before you put your foot down.
> In the TKD setting where your opponent usually wants to create distance and unload strong kicks as quickly as possible, body position like mawashi geri may leave you vulnerable.
> 
> But in karate setting, where your opponent will likely stay close to you and try to punch and grab you, mawashi geri finds the faces of many martial artists all the time (especially) if you can grab them while kicking.
> 
> Good types of roundhouse for various situation.
> 
> I've trained with skilled ITF, ITA, ATA, WT(F), and Tang Soo Do fighters and have seen them throw mawashi geri when the angle was right for it.
> Ju
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk



I'm comparing basics now, which is different from sparring. There’s no setting where his Mawashi geri is appropriate. He has has no control over it.


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## paitingman

Acronym said:


> I'm comparing basics now, which is different from sparring. There’s no setting where his Mawashi geri is appropriate. He has has no control over it.


How did you come to this conclusion? 
Just based on the snapshot, I can't judge too much, but it looks like mawashi geri to me.

The same mawashi geri I have seen many kickers execute. I can do the kick with that body position, with control decently well. 
It's not my best tool, but it's fine. 

How long have you been training? 
I suggest playing with it. You don't have to fall in love with the technique. But try some of your techniques in another's style; learning directly from friends is best. 

Happy training

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## Acronym

paitingman said:


> How did you come to this conclusion?
> Just based on the snapshot, I can't judge too much, but it looks like mawashi geri to me.
> 
> The same mawashi geri I have seen many kickers execute. I can do the kick with that body position, with control decently well.
> It's not my best tool, but it's fine.
> 
> How long have you been training?
> I suggest playing with it. You don't have to fall in love with the technique. But try some of your techniques in another's style; learning directly from friends is best.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk



His posture and arms give it away, and he won't be able to follow up with an additional kick, and his recovery post kick will be compromised


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## paitingman

Acronym said:


> His posture and arms give it away, and he won't be able to follow up with an additional kick, and his recovery post kick will be compromised


This is relevant to sparring and fighting. 
Your points are pretty on point, but only relative to long distance kick fighting. 

Again, think more close range. You'll not really plan for or expect to follow up with another kick. That kind of space will not be freely given to you. 

Roundhouse kicking people in the head when your hips are so close to their hips results in postures and hip action like this. 
You don't have the space to rotate hips without moving back or jumping back. 
Lots of TKD practioners tend to do the latter quite well. Or throw some variations of crescent kick from this close of range.

But in styles like Kyokushin, you will see a lot of mawashi geri from this same distance instead.


Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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