# So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?



## MJS

Reading some threads recently on KT and KN, I see debates regarding changing the material, improving things or keeping it the way it is, SL4, motion, commercial, how this person does a technique and why its right/wrong, etc. I even saw one post that was a reply to another member, stating that he was NOT doing American Kenpo!

So, my question is, with all of the various instructors out there, who is teaching the true way? I see reference made to certain people, actually one group, that was supposedly privy to things that others were not. 

Is Larry Tatum not teaching an effective method of Kenpo? What about Mr. LaBounty, Mr. Conatser, Mr. Palanzo? Reading some of these posts, I get the impression that unless you're in that 'special group' then what you're doing will not work.

Now, I was not there to see a good portion of these people back in the day, when they were training with Mr. Parker. I have had the chance to see Mr. Tatum once as well as Mr. Palanzo. From what I saw, their stuff was pretty effective to me.

So, how about some clarification...who's teaching the right way?

Mike


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## nlkenpo

I am.


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## gixxershane

nlkenpo said:
			
		

> I am.


 

i just tested up in Revere at Ms.C's school....


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## Kenpojujitsu3

nlkenpo said:
			
		

> I am.


 
No you're not because no one on KN likes your Thundering Hammers. LOL.

In all seriousness there is no one right way.  There are several ways.  Some valid some not so valid.  But I have yet to the see the one true method.

Train, practice, study, repeat.


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## stickarts

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> No you're not because no one on KN likes your Thundering Hammers. LOL.
> 
> In all seriousness there is no one right way. There are several ways. Some valid some not so valid. But I have yet to the see the one true method.
> 
> Train, practice, study, repeat.


 
I agree. There is no one "true" way. If it works for you it's right.
You can do a technique in various different ways while still holding true to the same principles.


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## gixxershane

stickarts said:
			
		

> I agree. There is no one "true" way. If it works for you it's right.
> You can do a technique in various different ways while still holding true to the same principles.


 
equation formula:idunno:


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## nlkenpo

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> No you're not because no one on KN likes your Thundering Hammers. LOL.
> 
> In all seriousness there is no one right way.  There are several ways.  Some valid some not so valid.  But I have yet to the see the one true method.
> 
> Train, practice, study, repeat.



That's kinda what I wanted to say, thanks James ;-)


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## nlkenpo

gixxershane said:
			
		

> i just tested up in Revere at Ms.C's school....



Congratulations, what grade were you testing for??

Marcel


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## michaeledward

Interesting Question ... I study with Mr. Hogan, who has been a direct student of Mr. Planas for about twenty years or so. Over on KenpoTalk, Jason just said he recognized Mr. Planas' influence on one of my comments, so I take that as a good thing. It means I am learning the material in the way my instructor's instructor teaches it.

I will say this, though. In 2003, Ms Cogliandro hosted the Kenpo internationals in Boston. I attended the Sunday workshops, and got to work with four senior Kenpo people. Each of the four instructors touched on 'Thundering Hammers' in their session. This was not by design or plan. But, it seemed that each of the instructors did something different. Some of which was so 'different' as to be outside of what I understood to be Kenpo at that time. 

One of the instructors had us 'floating' on one foot at a time, rather than 'establishing a base', (Rule #1 according to Mr. Planas). It was so far out of what I understood to be Kenpo, I just worked as the 'dummy' for others during that session.

So, I don't know if what Mr. Planas teaches is 'The Correct System'. But, for the moment, he is my instructor's instructor. I have the privilege of taking private lessons with him when he comes to town. I hope I am learning *his* system correctly. Hopefully, that he served as Mr. Parker's Executive Vice President of the IKKA means that his system, is the system of 'American Kenpo'. But, regardless, if I can only connect it to 'Huk Planas', that's a strong enough connection for me. 

As for others, and what they teach, well, maybe in the future, when I have internalized enough from Mr. Hogan and Mr. Planas, I will be able to properly evaluate what and why the others teach and train.


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## jaybacca72

i too following the huk planas lineage and have trained with many kenpo people and i like huk's methods for passing the knowledge best for me that is. you never have to worry wether he has an answer to your question or not because he will give you ten that get you thinking example at jeff blay's camp one year we spent 7hrs on yellow belt and we all knew yellow belt for many years but picked up lots of extra food for thought. in italy with huk recently we set a new record of teaching reversing mace for 4hrs using the formula equation and it was awesome to say the least. i think evrybody is teaching thier own kenpo and how they percieve it or with the influence of thier instructor,or some just changed the way they learned becasue they wanted to be the king of thier own castle and have something different to market cause let's face it like it or not it is a business to alot of people i am just fortunate that it is not so for me.
later
Jay Arnold
CANADA%-}


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## AdrenalineJunky

I'm not much into Kenpo, but I never hear names like Ralph Castro and Rick Alemany, and I am wondering if there is a reason for that?


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## Seig

Mike,
If I were you, I'd listen to Huk. To everyone that says there is more than one way to do a technique, I say you only know 1/3 of what you think you do. Now, before anyone cries foul, read on. If you come from an Iron Worker lineage, there are three ways to do a technique, (yellow excluded) the *base* way, the *extension*, and then the *equation variations*. The problem comes in when people take the base technique they really don't understand, I've touched on levels of knowing before, decide it is flawed and change it. This shows an incredible shallowness of knowledge. I don't care who you are, if your Delayed Sword looks like crap, then I'll tell you, it looks like crap. It doesn't matter if you alter the timing, or regulate the power, crap is crap. That is what far too many people today are doing, crap. They crap on the techniques, they crap on their instructors, and then they crap on their students. So what's the point of my little tirade? If you have not been taught the base technique correctly, then the rest of it is crap and you need to get a refund.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> I'm not much into Kenpo, but I never hear names like Ralph Castro and Rick Alemany, and I am wondering if there is a reason for that?


 
Heh-heh. Now you're going into old school politics, pre-EPAK. Back when kenpo had a whole lot fewer techniques, sets forms, etc., and more head-knocking.

But I suspect that's also why. The kenpo ownership being argued about now relates to who, among the guys who were with Mr. P for about the last 20, 10, 5 years, has the most-close-to-accurate nut-o-knowledge? Reading "the Journey", many of the featured seniors make cases about how/why their history puts thier take closer to the truth, even if they don't come out and say it. "Having run a school for Parker"..."being one of his first guys...", and so on. And the book is sorely missing the input of several of the dinosaurs still living, and certainly the 2nd gens who took over managing the lines of dinosaurs who have passed on before & after Mr. Parkers passing. There is a lot of good kenpo out there not represented in these arguments. Too bad; I bet there's some interesting things to hear.

Regards,

Dave


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## AdrenalineJunky

Sorry, I'm not up on all the politics. The school my buddy teaches at is a strain of Castro/Alemany Kenpo, so I was just curious. I just now realized that this is under the EPAK board, so, I hope I don't get flamed.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Seig said:
			
		

> Mike,
> If I were you, I'd listen to Huk. To everyone that says there is more than one way to do a technique, I say you only know 1/3 of what you think you do. Now, before anyone cries foul, read on. If you come from an Iron Worker lineage, there are three ways to do a technique, (yellow excluded) the *base* way, the *extension*, and then the *equation variations*. The problem comes in when people take the base technique they really don't understand, I've touched on levels of knowing before, decide it is flawed and change it. This shows an incredible shallowness of knowledge. I don't care who you are, if your Delayed Sword looks like crap, then I'll tell you, it looks like crap. It doesn't matter if you alter the timing, or regulate the power, crap is crap. That is what far too many people today are doing, crap. They crap on the techniques, they crap on their instructors, and then they crap on their students. So what's the point of my little tirade? If you have not been taught the base technique correctly, then the rest of it is crap and you need to get a refund.


 
Great post! What I see missing mostly, however, is emphasis on basics. I say, if your basics are crap, it doesn't matter if you understand the base technique, extensions, and variations. As a panel judge, I don't even care if they miss a step in a form or tech. I care that the steps that ARE performed are solid, reflecting a good foundation of sound basics. Crappy blocks, stances, strike mechanics in an otherwise "correct" base technique? See it all the time. I would rather spend the rest of my life doing line drills towards the goal of achieving impeccable basics, than to master extensions built on a house of sand.

But that's my own opinion, and I'm an a-hole...just ask my old lady.

Dave


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Great post! What I see missing mostly, however, is emphasis on basics. I say, if your basics are crap, it doesn't matter if you understand the base technique, extensions, and variations. As a panel judge, I don't even care if they miss a step in a form or tech. I care that the steps that ARE performed are solid, reflecting a good foundation of sound basics. Crappy blocks, stances, strike mechanics in an otherwise "correct" base technique? See it all the time. I would rather spend the rest of my life doing line drills towards the goal of achieving impeccable basics, than to master extensions built on a house of sand.
> 
> But that's my own opinion, and I'm an a-hole...just ask my old lady.
> 
> Dave


 
Strong Basics and Strong Principles = Strong Application

The order of movements is largely irrelevant as long as the principles are followed.  A lot of the differences in the "ideal" between lines all follow sound logic and principles.  The difference is in the sequence which is again dependant on the principles, not vice versa.

Watch someone from the Planas Line (or Planas himself), Tatum Line (or Tatum himself), or Palanzo Line (or Planzo himself) do Thundering Hammers and you'll see three different ideal phases.  And all three will be sound.  This has been my experience from working with those three lines and seeing each lines GM perform that one move differently.

Heck, I've got too much footage of Parker performing Thundering Hammers and there are some differences in how he did them depending on where he was.

Solid Basics and Solid Principles = Solid Application.

My two cents....and a nickel


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## HKphooey

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Interesting Question ... I study with Mr. Hogan, who has been a direct student of Mr. Planas for about twenty years or so. Over on KenpoTalk, Jason just said he recognized Mr. Planas' influence on one of my comments, so I take that as a good thing. It means I am learning the material in the way my instructor's instructor teaches it.
> 
> I will say this, though. In 2003, Ms Cogliandro hosted the Kenpo internationals in Boston. I attended the Sunday workshops, and got to work with four senior Kenpo people. Each of the four instructors touched on 'Thundering Hammers' in their session. This was not by design or plan. But, it seemed that each of the instructors did something different. Some of which was so 'different' as to be outside of what I understood to be Kenpo at that time.
> 
> One of the instructors had us 'floating' on one foot at a time, rather than 'establishing a base', (Rule #1 according to Mr. Planas). It was so far out of what I understood to be Kenpo, I just worked as the 'dummy' for others during that session.
> 
> So, I don't know if what Mr. Planas teaches is 'The Correct System'. But, for the moment, he is my instructor's instructor. I have the privilege of taking private lessons with him when he comes to town. I hope I am learning *his* system correctly. Hopefully, that he served as Mr. Parker's Executive Vice President of the IKKA means that his system, is the system of 'American Kenpo'. But, regardless, if I can only connect it to 'Huk Planas', that's a strong enough connection for me.
> 
> As for others, and what they teach, well, maybe in the future, when I have internalized enough from Mr. Hogan and Mr. Planas, I will be able to properly evaluate what and why the others teach and train.


 
You hit he nail on the head...  Go to as many seminars with as many "top kenpo" guys/gals as see all the different flavors.  It will enlighten you to what works and what does not.    Until you try something, you will never know if it is effective or not.   I have gone to many seminars with different instructors and I can honestly say I always learned something new... even if it is just another person's way of looking at something or explaining it.


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## hemi

MJS said:
			
		

> Reading some threads recently on KT and KN, I see debates regarding changing the material, improving things or keeping it the way it is, SL4, motion, commercial, how this person does a technique and why its right/wrong, etc. I even saw one post that was a reply to another member, stating that he was NOT doing American Kenpo!





			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Mike





Well that is the reason I have not posted over there since. I have a lot of respect for many of the people on that forum but have a hard time with some of the things that were said.


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## stickarts

HKphooey said:
			
		

> You hit he nail on the head... Go to as many seminars with as many "top kenpo" guys/gals as see all the different flavors. It will enlighten you to what works and what does not. Until you try something, you will never know if it is effective or not. I have gone to many seminars with different instructors and I can honestly say I always learned something new... even if it is just another person's way of looking at something or explaining it.


 

Absolutely. It is difficult to make progress when one is closed minded. 
Most of the greatest learned from many different people and experiences and continually evolved.


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## gixxershane

nlkenpo said:
			
		

> Congratulations, what grade were you testing for??
> 
> Marcel


 
first black


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## Carol

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Interesting Question ... I study with Mr. Hogan, who has been a direct student of Mr. Planas for about twenty years or so. Over on KenpoTalk, Jason just said he recognized Mr. Planas' influence on one of my comments, so I take that as a good thing. It means I am learning the material in the way my instructor's instructor teaches it.
> 
> I will say this, though. In 2003, Ms Cogliandro hosted the Kenpo internationals in Boston. I attended the Sunday workshops, and got to work with four senior Kenpo people. Each of the four instructors touched on 'Thundering Hammers' in their session. This was not by design or plan. But, it seemed that each of the instructors did something different. Some of which was so 'different' as to be outside of what I understood to be Kenpo at that time.
> 
> One of the instructors had us 'floating' on one foot at a time, rather than 'establishing a base', (Rule #1 according to Mr. Planas). It was so far out of what I understood to be Kenpo, I just worked as the 'dummy' for others during that session.
> 
> So, I don't know if what Mr. Planas teaches is 'The Correct System'. But, for the moment, he is my instructor's instructor. I have the privilege of taking private lessons with him when he comes to town. I hope I am learning *his* system correctly. Hopefully, that he served as Mr. Parker's Executive Vice President of the IKKA means that his system, is the system of 'American Kenpo'. But, regardless, if I can only connect it to 'Huk Planas', that's a strong enough connection for me.
> 
> As for others, and what they teach, well, maybe in the future, when I have internalized enough from Mr. Hogan and Mr. Planas, I will be able to properly evaluate what and why the others teach and train.


 
Not only that, Mike, but you do one helluva good job of explaining and interpreting the instructions to me.   Not only do you understand, you can conceptualize it to someone you don't usually train with, someone that may (or may not) have different strengths, weaknesses, and learning patterns than the good folks that you are around all the time.   :asian:


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## Goldendragon7

MJS said:
			
		

> Reading some threads recently on KT and KN, I see debates regarding changing the material, improving things or keeping it the way it is, SL4, motion, commercial, how this person does a technique and why its right/wrong, etc. I even saw one post that was a reply to another member, stating that he was NOT doing American Kenpo!
> 
> So, my question is, with all of the various instructors out there, who is teaching the true way?
> 
> Is Mr. Conatser teaching an effective method of Kenpo?
> 
> So, how about some clarification...who's teaching the right way?
> 
> Mike



Well, this is a no brainer............ We are of course!
%-}


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## Doc

It appears a couple of the comments could be attributed to me, or my lineage, so let me address a couple of the questions/statements.

As far as I can tell, the American Kenpo comment comes from me. I know of no one who actually does American Kenpo as Mr. Parker envisioned it, however that is a semantical disagreement based on my knowledge of what Mr. Parker did at the time, what he was going to do, and what he meant.

Briefly when he left the Chinese Kenpo interpretation, he began his quest to create his own version of Chinese Kenpo, and he termed it American Kenpo. Personal issues interrupted him almost immediately and he scrapped his public pursuit of American Kenpo in favor of the commercial produced and designed Kenpo-Karate. 

Some have chosen to refer to Kenpo Karate as EPAK on the internet, even though Mr. Parker himself never used the term. He was very careful about how, and what he attached his name. He wanted American Kenpo to be embraced by all martial artist for its American Values and perspectives, and therefore carefully avoided Branding it with his name.

Kenpo Karate was what he ended up promoting for personal reasons, and for this he did add his name to promote his schools and the then NEW method of teaching to the general public. This method was unique for its conceptual approach and actually had no hard basics, nor did Parker teach any. Kenpo Karate and American kenpo are completely different entities. 

American kenpo was Parkers rigid basics driven system that was a work-in-progress. You can check the progress of this system by examining footage of Mr. Parker over the years. Clearly, he changed in his persona approach, methodology, and execution. The later material in the eighties he performed was light years from what he had done earlier, and includes many of the mechanisms I speak of like BAM's and PAM's clearly there.

However in contrast, if you examine the commercial motion material he performed in the sixties, there is no significant difference in what is being taught today. There may be a few more moves or a change in angle, but it is essentially UNCHANGED from the sixties. 

How can you tell which is which? Easy. Mr. Parker actually demonstrated all of the techniques on film personally in the late sixties specifically to be used as reference material in regions of the country where he didnt get very often. Others and I have that material. (Many have visited me have seen it) 

I also have the original film he made with Chuck Sullivan archived on film reels from the fifties. To support my position, Parker re-shot the entire commercial system again in the seventies on video for the same reasons of standardization with Jim Mitchell and asked me, (and others) to archive the commercial reference material. However, none of this material is Mr. Parkers intended American Kenpo. 

Then Mr. Parker created his Advanced American kenpo Concepts video Series that featured my students Tommy Chavies, and Curtis Faust, along with Ernie George, and briefly even a slimmer me. I was the announcer as well on the two vids. Here Mr. Parker began to give a hint of his American Kenpo as he moved toward codifying basics for the first time. These tapes were to create a bridge between the commercial, and his true American Kenpo, and contain elements of both.

Although now, I doubt most will understand, or even care about semantical misunderstandings of a man most didnt even know. Nevertheless, as my friend, I know this meant a lot to him and it needed to be said regardless.

Ive often seen many attribute this secret kenpo lie to me personally. (Not suggesting anyone here did). I have never said this, but it seems to be repeated often that only I was given the true kenpo. Crap. Others have suggested they were that last final 3, 4, 12 or whatever to study with Mr. Parker, therefore they know the real material. While this group actually existed, the number and material is nebulous at best. 

The commercial system was being *STANDARDIZED* to rectify the many inconsistencies that had appeared over the years in this motion system, and to take advantage of the publicity anticipated from Jeff Speakmans debut in the Perfect Weapon. Nothing new, only *STANDARDIZED* 

I always find it interesting that Dennis Conatsers name is never mentioned, and I dont know anyone who knows or understands this material better than he. Once he came onto the scene, I ran into Dennis at the house more than anyone, yet hes never included in any of  the groups.  Rich Hale was also there even before Dennis, and he and I consistently bumped into each other. Parker even stated he wanted him to be my training partner, yet hes never mentioned in any of the groups.  The reason is Mr. Parker was standardizing material with many people, and not everyone knew whom else he was teaching, and not everyone was learning the same thing as Parker worked on various aspects of his arts with many people for reasons of his own.

I introduced my student Pat Silantri, and set up his lessons with Mr. Parker. Barbara Hale, Jeff Speakman, and Brian Hawkins all were the three in their own group with Mr. Parker in this process, but they were also students of Larry Tatum. Something many conveniently forget. So was Frank Trejo who was teaching Paul Mills. My Student Tommy Chavies was also in a separate group apart from my own study. The Flores Brothers has a group as well, along with many others. You get the idea. To suggest that Mr. Parker at some point only taught three or 4 people the good stuff before he passed is ludicrous. He was indeed trying to standardize the business aspect of kenpo with many.

I have stated my training and study with Mr. Parker was different from my perspective, but I never suggest I knew everyone he taught or what he taught them. I only claim responsibility for my own lessons, which clearly were different from most. If others dont understand what I teach, than I guess they had different lessons than I.

So, whos teaching the true Kenpo? All of us, but that dont mean they are all equal in depth, content, or effectiveness.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:
			
		

> It appears a couple of the comments could be attributed to me, or my lineage, so let me address a couple of the questions/statements.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the American Kenpo comment comes from me. I know of no one who actually does American Kenpo as Mr. Parker envisioned it, however that is a semantical disagreement based on my knowledge of what Mr. Parker did at the time, what he was going to do, and what he meant.
> 
> Briefly when he left the Chinese Kenpo interpretation, he began his quest to create his own version of Chinese Kenpo, and he termed it American Kenpo. Personal issues interrupted him almost immediately and he scrapped his public pursuit of American Kenpo in favor of the commercial produced and designed Kenpo-Karate.
> 
> Some have chosen to refer to Kenpo Karate as EPAK on the internet, even though Mr. Parker himself never used the term. He was very careful about how, and what he attached his name. He wanted American Kenpo to be embraced by all martial artist for its American Values and perspectives, and therefore carefully avoided Branding it with his name.
> 
> Kenpo Karate was what he ended up promoting for personal reasons, and for this he did add his name to promote his schools and the then NEW method of teaching to the general public. This method was unique for its conceptual approach and actually had no hard basics, nor did Parker teach any. Kenpo Karate and American kenpo are completely different entities.
> 
> American kenpo was Parkers rigid basics driven system that was a work-in-progress. You can check the progress of this system by examining footage of Mr. Parker over the years. Clearly, he changed in his persona approach, methodology, and execution. The later material in the eighties he performed was light years from what he had done earlier, and includes many of the mechanisms I speak of like BAM's and PAM's clearly there.
> 
> However in contrast, if you examine the commercial motion material he performed in the sixties, there is no significant difference in what is being taught today. There may be a few more moves or a change in angle, but it is essentially UNCHANGED from the sixties.
> 
> How can you tell which is which? Easy. Mr. Parker actually demonstrated all of the techniques on film personally in the late sixties specifically to be used as reference material in regions of the country where he didnt get very often. Others and I have that material. (Many have visited me have seen it)
> 
> I also have the original film he made with Chuck Sullivan archived on film reels from the fifties. To support my position, Parker re-shot the entire commercial system again in the seventies on video for the same reasons of standardization with Jim Mitchell and asked me, (and others) to archive the commercial reference material. However, none of this material is Mr. Parkers intended American Kenpo.
> 
> Then Mr. Parker created his Advanced American kenpo Concepts video Series that featured my students Tommy Chavies, and Curtis Faust, along with Ernie George, and briefly even a slimmer me. I was the announcer as well on the two vids. Here Mr. Parker began to give a hint of his American Kenpo as he moved toward codifying basics for the first time. These tapes were to create a bridge between the commercial, and his true American Kenpo, and contain elements of both.
> 
> Although now, I doubt most will understand, or even care about semantical misunderstandings of a man most didnt even know. Nevertheless, as my friend, I know this meant a lot to him and it needed to be said regardless.
> 
> Ive often seen many attribute this secret kenpo lie to me personally. (Not suggesting anyone here did). I have never said this, but it seems to be repeated often that only I was given the true kenpo. Crap. Others have suggested they were that last final 3, 4, 12 or whatever to study with Mr. Parker, therefore they know the real material. While this group actually existed, the number and material is nebulous at best.
> 
> The commercial system was being *STANDARDIZED* to rectify the many inconsistencies that had appeared over the years in this motion system, and to take advantage of the publicity anticipated from Jeff Speakmans debut in the Perfect Weapon. Nothing new, only *STANDARDIZED*
> 
> I always find it interesting that Dennis Conatsers name is never mentioned, and I dont know anyone who knows or understands this material better than he. Once he came onto the scene, I ran into Dennis at the house more than anyone, yet hes never included in any of the groups. Rich Hale was also there even before Dennis, and he and I consistently bumped into each other. Parker even stated he wanted him to be my training partner, yet hes never mentioned in any of the groups. The reason is Mr. Parker was standardizing material with many people, and not everyone knew whom else he was teaching, and not everyone was learning the same thing as Parker worked on various aspects of his arts with many people for reasons of his own.
> 
> I introduced my student Pat Silantri, and set up his lessons with Mr. Parker. Barbara Hale, Jeff Speakman, and Brian Hawkins all were the three in their own group with Mr. Parker in this process, but they were also students of Larry Tatum. Something many conveniently forget. So was Frank Trejo who was teaching Paul Mills. My Student Tommy Chavies was also in a separate group apart from my own study. The Flores Brothers has a group as well, along with many others. You get the idea. To suggest that Mr. Parker at some point only taught three or 4 people the good stuff before he passed is ludicrous. He was indeed trying to standardize the business aspect of kenpo with many.
> 
> I have stated my training and study with Mr. Parker was different from my perspective, but I never suggest I knew everyone he taught or what he taught them. I only claim responsibility for my own lessons, which clearly were different from most. If others dont understand what I teach, than I guess they had different lessons than I.
> 
> So, whos teaching the true Kenpo? All of us, but that dont mean they are all equal in depth, content, or effectiveness.


 
Thanks for the insight as always.  Though you always have many detractors their 'stories' are never as coherent as yours which makes you wonder.  Take care sir.

Hawkman


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## hongkongfooey

I don't know who has the "true Kenpo", but I can say that I like what I am doing now. I train at a Parker/ Planas lineage school. There are differences in some of the techniques that I am learning now compared to some of the techniques that I learned when I went to a school that taught the model listed in Infinite Insights. Things seem to work better for me this time around.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> 1.  As far as I can tell, the &#8220;American Kenpo&#8221; comment comes from me. I know of *no one* who actually does &#8220;American Kenpo&#8221; as Mr. Parker envisioned it
> 
> 2. Some have chosen to refer to Kenpo Karate as &#8220;EPAK&#8221; on the internet, even though Mr. Parker himself never used the term.
> 
> 3.  &#8220;Kenpo Karate&#8221; was what he ended up promoting for personal reasons, and for this he did add his name to promote his schools and the then &#8220;NEW&#8221; method of teaching to the general public. This method was unique for its conceptual approach and actually had no hard basics, nor did Parker teach any. *&#8220;Kenpo Karate&#8221; and &#8220;American kenpo&#8221; are completely different entities*.
> 
> 4.  The later material in the eighties he performed was light years from what he had done earlier, and includes many of the mechanisms I speak of like BAM's and PAM's clearly there.
> 
> 5.  I also have the original film he made with Chuck Sullivan archived on film reels from the fifties. To support my position, Parker re-shot the entire commercial system again in the seventies on video for the same reasons of &#8220;standardization&#8221; with Jim Mitchell and asked me, (and others) to archive the commercial reference material. However, none of this material is Mr. Parker&#8217;s intended American Kenpo.
> 
> 6.  Then Mr. Parker created his &#8220;Advanced American kenpo Concepts video Series&#8221; that featured my students Tommy Chavies, and Curtis Faust, along with Ernie George, and briefly even a slimmer me. I was the announcer as well on the two vids. Here Mr. Parker began to give a hint of his American Kenpo as he moved toward codifying basics for the first time. These tapes were to create a &#8216;bridge&#8217; between the commercial, and his true American Kenpo, and contain elements of both.
> 
> 7.  Although now, I doubt most will understand, or even care about semantical misunderstandings of a man most didn&#8217;t even know. Nevertheless, *as my friend*, I know this meant a lot to him and it needed to be said regardless.
> 
> 8.  I&#8217;ve often seen many attribute this &#8220;secret kenpo&#8221; lie to me personally. (Not suggesting anyone here did). I have never said this, but it seems to be repeated often that only I was given the true kenpo. Crap.
> 
> 9.  I always find it interesting that Dennis Conatser&#8217;s name is never mentioned, and I don&#8217;t know anyone who knows or understands this material better than he. Once he came onto the scene, I ran into Dennis at the house more than anyone, yet he&#8217;s never included in any of &#8220;the groups.&#8221; Rich Hale was also there even before Dennis, and he and I consistently &#8216;bumped&#8217; into each other. Parker even stated he wanted him to be my training partner, yet he&#8217;s never mentioned in any of the &#8220;groups.&#8221;
> 
> 10. The reason is Mr. Parker was standardizing material with many people, and not everyone knew whom else he was teaching, and not everyone was learning the same thing as Parker worked on various aspects of his arts with many people for reasons of his own.
> 
> 11.  To suggest that Mr. Parker at some point only taught three or 4 people the &#8216;good stuff&#8217; before he passed is ludicrous. He was indeed trying to standardize the business aspect of kenpo with many.
> 
> 12.  I have stated my training and study with Mr. Parker was different from my perspective, but I never suggest I knew everyone he taught or what he taught them. I only claim responsibility for my own lessons, which clearly were different from most. If others don&#8217;t understand what I teach, than I guess they had different lessons than I.
> 
> 13.  So, who&#8217;s teaching the true Kenpo? All of us...


 
1.  Interesting. He didn't say "no one but I", he said "no one". I wonder how long it will be before this gets turned into a "Chapel sez he da only one" accusation.

2.  You know, Doc...you're going to ruffle a lot of feathers with observations such as these, and have to contend with legions of angry EPAKkers.(???)

3. See #2

4.  In my brief exposure, these were definitely present. They had not yet been codified, but were in his performance of kenpo. I expect, yet again, that simple act of noticing a difference, then accentuating it in your SL4 will be the cause of much criticism by the kenpo masses. Personally, I am glad that somebody caught these, and that their inclusion in the kenpo body of knowledge did not slip.

5.  Again, see #2.

6.  Not having been viewed by the masses, more will undoubtedly protect their investments by denying either the validity of these having been made, or argue that there was nothing new/worth knowing/different from the mainstreamed models. See #2.

7.  Many could call him a teacher, a few could call him a mentor. Fewer still could call him friend. I, for one, appreciate your willingness to keep your commitment to your friend.

8. From the horses mouth. But that will, undoubtedly, be forgotten for convenience. 

9.  There are a lot of good guys, more "in the know" than most, who stay under the radar. By many accounts, Mr. Conatser would be at the house before the final 4 got there, and after they left. Maybe he was only drinking tea with Mr. P, and issues of kenpo never came up? Mr. Hale certainly never had access to Mr. Parkers insights or ideas. (sarcasm, people...)

10.  Truer truth never told. But again, see #2. There is no benefit for the legions to believe in anything other than thier own interpretation of the bible. Pardon me...kenpo.

11.  See #2. And 10. And...aw hell..what's the point (see last part of 10).

12.  This is far too rational an assessment to be, well, rational. See #2.

13.  Corpus Edmundi? Any set of ideas can only live on in the minds of those who entertain them. Again...too much sense.

Glad to hear from ya, Doc. Send food from the BBQ.

Regards,

David W. Crouch, proud semi-student of the mad professor (if I could be there more, I surely would).


----------



## hongkongfooey

Doc,

Any chance of converting those tapes to DVD?


----------



## Bode

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Any chance of converting those tapes to DVD?



Damn, now you've gone and done it. He's already waiting for oh, about a dozen, other DVD's for me to convert. (Have to by a new burner... Mac). Burning is simply a pain in the a*&. It works on all my DVD players, but not on Doc's.... frustrating.


----------



## Doc

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Any chance of converting those tapes to DVD?


I know Conatser has them as well, so you might try him. My plates a bit full right now and my students resources are stretched for more important things for us. And to be honest if I gave it some thought, I'm not sure I wouldn't have some reservations about making DVD's and distributing them. They are not for sell. 

When I get our new site up and running however, I'm considering putting bits and pieces as examples in a section on commercial/motion Kenpo. The tapes I have include everything. All the forms through 5, and sets 1, 2, and 3 that existed at the time, along with the extensions. All supervised by Mr. Parker whose voice can be heard calling the different techniques and sets in the background, although at no time does he appear on camera.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:
			
		

> When I get our new site up and running however, I'm considering putting bits and pieces as examples in a section on commercial/motion Kenpo.


 
Careful Doc!  You might offend someone with articles like that, LOL!


----------



## hongkongfooey

Doc said:
			
		

> I know Conatser has them as well, so you might try him. My plates a bit full right now and my students resources are stretched for more important things for us. And to be honest if I gave it some thought, I'm not sure I wouldn't have some reservations about making DVD's and distributing them. They are not for sell.
> 
> When I get our new site up and running however, I'm considering putting bits and pieces as examples in a section on commercial/motion Kenpo. The tapes I have include everything. All the forms through 5, and sets 1, 2, and 3 that existed at the time, along with the extensions. All supervised by Mr. Parker whose voice can be heard calling the different techniques and sets in the background, although at no time does he appear on camera.


 
Doc, 
Sometime, I'm gonna have to pick you brain about the good old days.
I would love to hear some of your stories.

Dave


----------



## Doc

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Doc,
> Sometime, I'm gonna have to pick you brain about the good old days.
> I would love to hear some of your stories.
> 
> Dave


They were indeed interesting and different times sir. A lot of the guys have some great stories. Some, like Dennis Conatser or Frank Trejo, are great story tellers.


----------



## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Careful Doc!  You might offend someone with articles like that, LOL!


Yeah you're right. I stay up nights worried I might offend somebody who started commercial kenpo in the early eighties after I had been a black belt over two decades.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> Yeah you're right. I stay up nights worried I might offend somebody who started commercial kenpo in the early eighties after I had been a black belt over two decades.



Ah Haaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!:idea:

Now I know why you're starting to forget things....... dementia is starting to set in at your ripe ole' age...... hmmm early eightys, black belt for 2 dedades, then the 90's now 2006..... HOLY Cow Batman you are ancient!

(couldn't resist) hee hee

:asian:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Ah Haaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!:idea:
> 
> Now I know why you're starting to forget things....... dementia is starting to set in at your ripe ole' age...... hmmm early eightys, black belt for 2 dedades, then the 90's now 2006..... HOLY Cow Batman you are ancient!
> 
> (couldn't resist) hee hee
> 
> :asian:


Speak of the devil .....

That's what I get for mentioning his name.


----------



## Rich_Hale

It's always interesting to read what Doc has to say about Mr. Parker and the good old days.

I do remember Dennis being a serious student of Mr. Parkers back then, but as for me I was just there to rummage around in Mr. Parkers basement for old Elvis Presley memorabilia.  

And yes, Mr. Parker did suggest that Doc and I be partners, but I thought he meant Ron was going to help me go through the basement and set up the Ebay account.

I really got to start paying closer attention to details!


----------



## MJS

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> No you're not because no one on KN likes your Thundering Hammers. LOL.
> 
> In all seriousness there is no one right way. There are several ways. Some valid some not so valid. But I have yet to the see the one true method.
> 
> Train, practice, study, repeat.


 
Good point.  That being said, if its working for you, if its something that you're enjoying, then that is IMO what should matter most.  Afterall, its that individual person doing the training.

Mike


----------



## MJS

Seig said:
			
		

> Mike,
> If I were you, I'd listen to Huk. To everyone that says there is more than one way to do a technique, I say you only know 1/3 of what you think you do. Now, before anyone cries foul, read on. If you come from an Iron Worker lineage, there are three ways to do a technique, (yellow excluded) the *base* way, the *extension*, and then the *equation variations*. The problem comes in when people take the base technique they really don't understand, I've touched on levels of knowing before, decide it is flawed and change it. This shows an incredible shallowness of knowledge. I don't care who you are, if your Delayed Sword looks like crap, then I'll tell you, it looks like crap. It doesn't matter if you alter the timing, or regulate the power, crap is crap. That is what far too many people today are doing, crap. They crap on the techniques, they crap on their instructors, and then they crap on their students. So what's the point of my little tirade? If you have not been taught the base technique correctly, then the rest of it is crap and you need to get a refund.


 
Good points.  But considering that we can have 5 people all doing the technique differently, whats going to determine who is doing the base technique correctly or not?  I'm not saying that we should totally disregard the basics, due to the fact that is what gives the foundation for the rest of the material.  Maybe I'm misreading but are you referring more to a slight adjustment or totally altering the technique in favor of something else?

Mike


----------



## MJS

2004hemi said:
			
		

> Well that is the reason I have not posted over there since. I have a lot of respect for many of the people on that forum but have a hard time with some of the things that were said.


 
Well, this was one of the reasons why I started this thread...to have some discussion and get some things out in the open.  There are so many people out there teaching, I think its good to see what's out there, and decide for yourself what suits you best. 

Mike


----------



## MJS

Doc said:
			
		

> It appears a couple of the comments could be attributed to me, or my lineage, so let me address a couple of the questions/statements.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the American Kenpo comment comes from me. I know of no one who actually does American Kenpo as Mr. Parker envisioned it, however that is a semantical disagreement based on my knowledge of what Mr. Parker did at the time, what he was going to do, and what he meant.
> 
> Briefly when he left the Chinese Kenpo interpretation, he began his quest to create his own version of Chinese Kenpo, and he termed it American Kenpo. Personal issues interrupted him almost immediately and he scrapped his public pursuit of American Kenpo in favor of the commercial produced and designed Kenpo-Karate.
> 
> Some have chosen to refer to Kenpo Karate as EPAK on the internet, even though Mr. Parker himself never used the term. He was very careful about how, and what he attached his name. He wanted American Kenpo to be embraced by all martial artist for its American Values and perspectives, and therefore carefully avoided Branding it with his name.
> 
> Kenpo Karate was what he ended up promoting for personal reasons, and for this he did add his name to promote his schools and the then NEW method of teaching to the general public. This method was unique for its conceptual approach and actually had no hard basics, nor did Parker teach any. Kenpo Karate and American kenpo are completely different entities.
> 
> American kenpo was Parkers rigid basics driven system that was a work-in-progress. You can check the progress of this system by examining footage of Mr. Parker over the years. Clearly, he changed in his persona approach, methodology, and execution. The later material in the eighties he performed was light years from what he had done earlier, and includes many of the mechanisms I speak of like BAM's and PAM's clearly there.
> 
> However in contrast, if you examine the commercial motion material he performed in the sixties, there is no significant difference in what is being taught today. There may be a few more moves or a change in angle, but it is essentially UNCHANGED from the sixties.
> 
> How can you tell which is which? Easy. Mr. Parker actually demonstrated all of the techniques on film personally in the late sixties specifically to be used as reference material in regions of the country where he didnt get very often. Others and I have that material. (Many have visited me have seen it)
> 
> I also have the original film he made with Chuck Sullivan archived on film reels from the fifties. To support my position, Parker re-shot the entire commercial system again in the seventies on video for the same reasons of standardization with Jim Mitchell and asked me, (and others) to archive the commercial reference material. However, none of this material is Mr. Parkers intended American Kenpo.
> 
> Then Mr. Parker created his Advanced American kenpo Concepts video Series that featured my students Tommy Chavies, and Curtis Faust, along with Ernie George, and briefly even a slimmer me. I was the announcer as well on the two vids. Here Mr. Parker began to give a hint of his American Kenpo as he moved toward codifying basics for the first time. These tapes were to create a bridge between the commercial, and his true American Kenpo, and contain elements of both.
> 
> Although now, I doubt most will understand, or even care about semantical misunderstandings of a man most didnt even know. Nevertheless, as my friend, I know this meant a lot to him and it needed to be said regardless.
> 
> Ive often seen many attribute this secret kenpo lie to me personally. (Not suggesting anyone here did). I have never said this, but it seems to be repeated often that only I was given the true kenpo. Crap. Others have suggested they were that last final 3, 4, 12 or whatever to study with Mr. Parker, therefore they know the real material. While this group actually existed, the number and material is nebulous at best.
> 
> The commercial system was being *STANDARDIZED* to rectify the many inconsistencies that had appeared over the years in this motion system, and to take advantage of the publicity anticipated from Jeff Speakmans debut in the Perfect Weapon. Nothing new, only *STANDARDIZED*
> 
> I always find it interesting that Dennis Conatsers name is never mentioned, and I dont know anyone who knows or understands this material better than he. Once he came onto the scene, I ran into Dennis at the house more than anyone, yet hes never included in any of the groups. Rich Hale was also there even before Dennis, and he and I consistently bumped into each other. Parker even stated he wanted him to be my training partner, yet hes never mentioned in any of the groups. The reason is Mr. Parker was standardizing material with many people, and not everyone knew whom else he was teaching, and not everyone was learning the same thing as Parker worked on various aspects of his arts with many people for reasons of his own.
> 
> I introduced my student Pat Silantri, and set up his lessons with Mr. Parker. Barbara Hale, Jeff Speakman, and Brian Hawkins all were the three in their own group with Mr. Parker in this process, but they were also students of Larry Tatum. Something many conveniently forget. So was Frank Trejo who was teaching Paul Mills. My Student Tommy Chavies was also in a separate group apart from my own study. The Flores Brothers has a group as well, along with many others. You get the idea. To suggest that Mr. Parker at some point only taught three or 4 people the good stuff before he passed is ludicrous. He was indeed trying to standardize the business aspect of kenpo with many.
> 
> I have stated my training and study with Mr. Parker was different from my perspective, but I never suggest I knew everyone he taught or what he taught them. I only claim responsibility for my own lessons, which clearly were different from most. If others dont understand what I teach, than I guess they had different lessons than I.
> 
> So, whos teaching the true Kenpo? All of us, but that dont mean they are all equal in depth, content, or effectiveness.


 
Doc, thanks for the well thought out reply.  I'd have to say that much of the confusion comes into play during the discussion of a technique.  Now, I'm not sure if the differences are your own changes or if your version of a technique is the way that Mr. Parker had originally intended the technique to be.  The Raining Claw thread on KT, the video clip of the SL4 version of Delayed Sword would be two apparent differences in the way the material is applied.  I personally, have not heard any mention of anyone else doing the things you're doing, so I can see how that would lead one to think that you had some 'secret' teachings.

Thanks again to everyone for all of the great posts!  I look forward to continuing this discussion.

Mike


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Rich_Hale said:
			
		

> It's always interesting to read what Doc has to say about Mr. Parker and the good old days.
> 
> I do remember Dennis being a serious student of Mr. Parkers back then, but as for me I was just there to rummage around in Mr. Parkers basement for old Elvis Presley memorabilia.
> 
> And yes, Mr. Parker did suggest that Doc and I be partners, but I thought he meant Ron was going to help me go through the basement and set up the Ebay account.
> 
> I really got to start paying closer attention to details!


 
*cough*"downplay"*cough*


----------



## Doc

MJS said:
			
		

> Doc, thanks for the well thought out reply.  I'd have to say that much of the confusion comes into play during the discussion of a technique.  Now, I'm not sure if the differences are your own changes or if your version of a technique is the way that Mr. Parker had originally intended the technique to be.  The Raining Claw thread on KT, the video clip of the SL4 version of Delayed Sword would be two apparent differences in the way the material is applied.  I personally, have not heard any mention of anyone else doing the things you're doing, so I can see how that would lead one to think that you had some 'secret' teachings.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone for all of the great posts!  I look forward to continuing this discussion.
> 
> Mike


Just so there is no confusion or misunderstandings sir. As far as I know, *Mr. Parker never created a definitive technique sequence that he expected everyone to perform in the same manner.* Students would constantly bombard him with that question on techniques. He would always answer with the same reply. "Show me how YOU do it." Then he would make suggestions and corrections FOR THEM to be effective. Someone else asking the same question regarding the same technique would get a different answer FOR THEM.

American Kenpo, briefly, was supposed to be that vehicle, but he became overwhelmed by business and never formulated the American Kenpo System with strict technique execution, and concentrated on Kenpo Karate which paid the bills.

Parker was very busy and was on the road alot traveling and selling through tests and seminars. My own lessons ultimately became almost pure principle based, with a variety of Kenpo Karate techniques used only as examples corrected to illustrate what needed to be done to be successful. You can find pieces of the American Kenpo Material in the 2 volume video series, as well as Kenpo Karate Material. (As a side note: You can find me in Volume One specifically doing a segment where Ed Parker asked me to briefly emphasize the "slap-checks.")

So any argument about 'correct Kenpo' is moot. If you're happy with it, then its fine. But don't be upset if you run into someone who has a different understanding who is as, or more, effective than you.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Reguardless of who the final four were, those individuals were only learning at their current(at the time) level.
Sean


----------



## hongkongfooey

Doc,

What changes were made to the system from say 1970 up until the beginning of the early 80's? Was it changed to make it easier to learn? Was the Big Red manual an componet of this change?


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> Just so there is no  confusion or misunderstandings sir. As far as I know, *Mr. Parker never  created a definitive technique sequence that he expected everyone to perform in  the same manner.*



Key word here is "*definitive*".   Mr. Parker _*did*_ create a "standard or base" technique  sequence to be used as a point of reference for different purposes at different  levels of training.  These were the (constantly updated and revised) editions of  the Red Book or journals that some refer to.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Students  would constantly bombard him with that question on techniques. He would always  answer with the same reply. "Show me how YOU do it." Then he would make  suggestions and corrections FOR THEM to be effective. Someone else asking the  same question regarding the same technique would get a different answer FOR  THEM.



This is also correct and at the same time very  confusing.  He did not want an 'iron clad" technique that people would never  realize or train for variables (which are  necessary for a variety of reasons)  but at the same time he did want standardization of the basic material for a  starting point of reference.  Sooooo his method then was to demonstrate to  different individuals different "POSSIBILITIES" for any given technique  (variable expansion).  Problem is.... people took what he showed them and  encapsulated it just the same.  lol :idunno:




			
				Doc said:
			
		

> American Kenpo, briefly, was supposed  to be that vehicle, but he became overwhelmed by business and never formulated  the American Kenpo System with strict technique execution, and concentrated on  Kenpo Karate which paid the bills.



Well, not entirely true.   His most current journals at the time of his passing, were worked over very  carefully (not saying they were totally completed) unfortunately he didn't have  the opportunity to promote them to the masses as he was going to along with his  video series.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> So any argument about 'correct Kenpo' is  moot. If you're happy with it, then its fine. But don't be upset if you run into  someone who has a different understanding who is as, or more, effective than  you.



Well, then it's not really moot then.  It is important  to understand the entire system as layed out and then TRAIN that system vs. just  toy with it as most do.  This is the main problem.  Most think they learn a  given technique or several for that matter and they are done....... Wrong go  Buckaroo..... they need to be worked and trained for a long time.
Just  because you may be "happy" with a movement does not mean that it is viable for  you or anyone else..... it must be effective for the person using  it.

GD7
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Doc,
> What changes were made to the system from say 1970 up until the beginning of the early 80's? Was it changed to make it easier to learn? Was the Big Red manual an componet of this change?



I'll chime in here for a short....

There  were actually very few 'updates' thru the 70's.   Most of the dramatic "updates" occured during the 80's.  Very little change was made to the 'Core' material, but many description updates and system organization.

:asian:


----------



## MJS

Doc said:
			
		

> So any argument about 'correct Kenpo' is moot. If you're happy with it, then its fine. But don't be upset if you run into someone who has a different understanding who is as, or more, effective than you.


 
Yes, you're right, I am happy with my training.  Don't worry, I won't lose any sleep over someone being better, as I know those people exist.  I think that I've addressed the things that I had a problem with. 

Mike


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Key word here is "*definitive*".   Mr. Parker _*did*_ create a "standard or base" technique  sequence to be used as a point of reference for different purposes at different  levels of training.  These were the (constantly updated and revised) editions of  the Red Book or journals that some refer to.
> 
> 
> 
> This is also correct and at the same time very  confusing.  He did not want an 'iron clad" technique that people would never  realize or train for variables (which are  necessary for a variety of reasons)  but at the same time he did want standardization of the basic material for a  starting point of reference.  Sooooo his method then was to demonstrate to  different individuals different "POSSIBILITIES" for any given technique  (variable expansion).  Problem is.... people took what he showed them and  encapsulated it just the same.  lol :idunno:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, not entirely true.   His most current journals at the time of his passing, were worked over very  carefully (not saying they were totally completed) unfortunately he didn't have  the opportunity to promote them to the masses as he was going to along with his  video series.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, then it's not really moot then.  It is important  to understand the entire system as layed out and then TRAIN that system vs. just  toy with it as most do.  This is the main problem.  Most think they learn a  given technique or several for that matter and they are done....... Wrong go  Buckaroo..... they need to be worked and trained for a long time.
> Just  because you may be "happy" with a movement does not mean that it is viable for  you or anyone else..... it must be effective for the person using  it.
> 
> GD7
> :asian:


Wrong go  Buckaroo ? Oh brutha!


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I'll chime in here for a short....
> 
> There  were actually very few 'updates' thru the 70's.   Most of the dramatic "updates" occured during the 80's.  Very little change was made to the 'Core' material, but many description updates and system organization.
> 
> :asian:


The only so-called updates in the seventies, were the addition of some of the 'two,' and 'three' sets and extensions. None of which had any real impact on anything.


----------



## Doc

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> Reguardless of who the final four were, those individuals were only learning at their current(at the time) level.
> Sean


There were no final four, but a bunch of people he was atempting to standardize the business with. But don't make the mistake of thinking that applied to all of his teachings. I was with the man for over 27 years and never used any of those manuals old or new.


----------



## JamesB

The impression I get from reading this (and other) threads is that Kenpo means different things to different people. Depending on when, and from whom one learnt, can define a person's kenpo - be it Chinese Kenpo, Kenpo Karate, etc. Whatever you learnt, whenever you learnt it, it is still kenpo. 16/24/32 techniques, extensions or otherwise. It's your kenpo, it is correct for *you*.

The most valuable thing in the Kenpo system for me, is the open, logical approach to martial-arts which encourages people to question (with an open mind) what they are being taught. That's why I started. The instructor should be teaching the student these lessons - so that they can make informed, honest choices about where they want their training to go next. 

If someone has this approach, then I would deem this 'correct' - this is what kenpo is all about. The whole motion/commercial thing is irrelevant in my opinion. So what if you don't have all the answers right away. Everyone starts at white-belt regardless of system/style/school, and as long as the instructor and students are honest about what they are doing then this is all that matters. This is the approach to Martial Arts that I believe Mr Parker wanted people to follow, commercial or otherwise.

For those that bury their heads in the sand - who cannot bring themselves to look inward and analyze what they are doing. Who go away and form cliques which attempt to discredit the work of others. For those that have so much invested in their own rank/ego/status that they fail to give honest answers about what they are doing, to the detriment of their own and their student's development. In this case I question whether what they are doing is American Kenpo any longer...sure it's kenpo, or karate, whatever. But American Kenpo?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

JamesB said:
			
		

> The impression I get from reading this (and other) threads is that Kenpo means different things to different people. Depending on when, and from whom one learnt, can define a person's kenpo - be it Chinese Kenpo, Kenpo Karate, etc. Whatever you learnt, whenever you learnt it, it is still kenpo. 16/24/32 techniques, extensions or otherwise. It's your kenpo, it is correct for *you*.
> 
> The most valuable thing in the Kenpo system for me, is the open, logical approach to martial-arts which encourages people to question (with an open mind) what they are being taught. That's why I started. The instructor should be teaching the student these lessons - so that they can make informed, honest choices about where they want their training to go next.
> 
> If someone has this approach, then I would deem this 'correct' - this is what kenpo is all about. The whole motion/commercial thing is irrelevant in my opinion. So what if you don't have all the answers right away. Everyone starts at white-belt regardless of system/style/school, and as long as the instructor and students are honest about what they are doing then this is all that matters. This is the approach to Martial Arts that I believe Mr Parker wanted people to follow, commercial or otherwise.
> 
> For those that bury their heads in the sand - who cannot bring themselves to look inward and analyze what they are doing. Who go away and form cliques which attempt to discredit the work of others. For those that have so much invested in their own rank/ego/status that they fail to give honest answers about what they are doing, to the detriment of their own and their student's development. In this case I question whether what they are doing is American Kenpo any longer...sure it's kenpo, or karate, whatever. But American Kenpo?


 
Thinking is discouraged in kenpo; blind obedience to mindless loyalty is what's expected. So stop thinking, and obey.

Oh, wait. That's not the case at all.

I'm just gonna slink away for a bit...


----------



## Carol

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Thinking is discouraged in kenpo; blind obedience to mindless loyalty is what's expected. So stop thinking, and obey.
> 
> Oh, wait. That's not the case at all.
> 
> I'm just gonna slink away for a bit...


 
*whew*

No THINKING in Kenpo?   You were scaring me there for a minute, Dr. Dave


----------



## Goldendragon7

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> *whew*
> 
> No THINKING in Kenpo?   You were scaring me there for a minute, Dr. Dave



Hee hee hee...... you know how _*some*_ of these Dr's are....... they just love to hear themselves type sometimes.

%-}


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Hee hee hee...... you know how _*some*_ of these Dr's are....... they just love to hear themselves type sometimes.
> 
> %-}


 
I resemble that remark!


----------



## Carol

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Hee hee hee...... you know how _*some*_ of these Dr's are....... they just love to hear themselves type sometimes.
> 
> %-}


 

ROFL!  Hey, its pretty cool seeing what some of these doctors type.  Dragons too.


----------



## Rob Broad

Doc said:
			
		

> They were indeed interesting and different times sir. A lot of the guys have some great stories. Some, like Dennis Conatser or Frank Trejo, are great story tellers.


 
Especially when Frank Trejo tells about how he got into Kenpo.  Somewhere there is a girl that we all a great debt to.


----------



## MJS

Doc said:
			
		

> To suggest that Mr. Parker at some point only taught three or 4 people the good stuff before he passed is ludicrous. He was indeed trying to standardize the business aspect of kenpo with many.


 
Considering that we have only 2 active Kenpo Seniors that post regularly, perhaps Mr. Conatser and Mr. Chapel could expand on this a bit.

I'd be interested to hear how the training that you received from Mr. Parker differed between the two of you, as well as some of the others that were there, such as Mr. Tatum, Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Palanas.

Thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing your replies.

Mike


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

MJS said:
			
		

> Considering that we have only 2 active Kenpo Seniors that post regularly, perhaps Mr. Conatser and Mr. Chapel could expand on this a bit.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear how the training that you received from Mr. Parker differed between the two of you, as well as some of the others that were there, such as Mr. Tatum, Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Palanas.
> 
> Thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing your replies.
> 
> Mike


 
That would definitely be an interesting discussion.


----------



## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> That would definitely be an interesting discussion.


Well not quite. Dennis is a "Senior," with many "Senior moments." I however am an "Ancient" who began study long before what most know as Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate existed. Dennis and I have these discussions over Chinese Food at Won Kok as often as possible, (at least we did before he jumped the broom).

Anyway Dennis studied what most of you understand kenpo to be, and he is well grounded in the 'motion' system, but has studied other concepts and styles as well. Anyway, he learned it from the only expert source and is as well versed in it as anyone, and better than just about everybody. That's why our discussions are so good. He's smart and Ed Parkr designed that material to allow the very intelligent to get deep into its concepts. Unfortunately most are either not smart enough, or unwilling to make the leap. But I'll let Dennis fill in the blanks.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> Well not quite. Dennis is a "Senior," with many "Senior moments." I however am an "Ancient" who began study long before what most know as Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate existed. Dennis and I have these discussions over Chinese Food at Won Kok as often as possible, (at least we did before he jumped the broom).
> 
> I'll let Dennis fill in the blanks.



Hey....... I don't have any Senior moments...... at least yet!!  A couple of  operations here and there..... (on coming up this Friday to shave a bit of my  collar bone) but hey..... no biggie!

My training with Ed Parker possibly  differed from Doc's a bit primarily due to the fact that I had an active studio  open and it was necessary to examine ALL areas of the Art since I was teaching  it 10 hours a day.  

Private students that were learning for their own  personal development could have been quite different due to the way Ed Parker  taught.  He was so skilled to build the student to what the student  '*could*' do and was '*interested*' in learning.   Thus, he didn't  always teach the same to everyone.  

I personally was interested in  learning all aspects of the art so that I could pass on this to my students  (even tho many didn't deserve it as is the case with most studios).  I desired  my students to be versed in all aspects of the Art, History, Basics,  Standardized Syllabus, Respect, Competition, Sparring, Forms, Weapon knowledge  and of course Self defense.  This is a huge task to pass on to the masses since  I didn't only teach specific areas to specific students.  I have been branded at  times "hard core", "difficult",  and yes even "anal" about the material and  standards I expect.  That's me.  

Since I was already a Black Belt and  had a lengthy tournament history already behind me.. we didn't work on this much  unless I asked a specific question.

On my first private lesson, he asked  me what I wanted to go over... I said well, since I have a studio I would like  to start with the Yellow Belt and progress upward from there.  Starting with all  the stances, blocks, punches... etc.   He rolled his eyes and said "oh come on,  you know all that material"!  I said, yes I probably have some understanding of  it but I would like you to see exactly what I am doing and I want to be sure  that it is exactly what you want.   I'm sure some will be fine but I'm also sure  you could add great dimensions to what I have already acquired and I am  interested in all you have to say.......  he said ok..... and away we  went.


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Hey....... I don't have any Senior moments...... at least yet!!


Thanks for proving me point. You left out the word "not."


> I have been branded at  times "hard core", "difficult",  and yes even "anal" about the material and  standards I expect.  That's me.


I don't know if you know it, but the Old Man used to call you "Dennis The Pack Rat." He said you, ".. would swoop into town, get as much information as you can, go back home to stash and work on it, then come back for more.
Did I ever tell you that?


----------



## kenpohack

I know I'll take flak for this remark, but no one moves like Larry Tatum. I've seen almost every luminary in the kenpo community move, and no comes close to matching Tatum's speed, fluidity, grace, and explosive power. I mean no disrespect to any other master, but no one else comes close to matching Parker's mode of movement. Paul Mills comes close; however, Mills is no longer teaching the system laid out in Infinite Insights 5. 

For all of Doc's denunciations of motion kenpo, even he does not move like Mr. Tatum. Tatum teaches the system laid out in Infinite Insights. That would appear to be what Mr. Parker wanted to be taught. Maybe Mr. Parker taught Mr. Chapel something different. Many dispute this claim. I refuse to take sides on an issue whose only supporting evidence involves the claims of interested parties. However, the proof is in the motion, and no one moves like Mr. Tatum. Furthermore, the proof is in one's lineage. Look at the like's of Rick Jeffcoat, Daryl Liner, Juan Serrano, and Clyde Obriant. All move with the same signature. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill. Having shared the mats with Clyde on several occasions, I would challenge anyone to slap leather with him and make the claim that he does not know what he's talking about.


----------



## Doc

kenpohack said:
			
		

> I know I'll take flak for this remark, but no one moves like Larry Tatum.I've seen almost every luminary in the kenpo community move, and no comes close to matching Tatum's speed, fluidity, grace, and explosive power.


Seen where?


> I mean no disrespect to any other master, but no one else comes close to matching Parker's mode of movement. Paul Mills comes close; however, Mills is no longer teaching the system laid out in Infinite Insights 5.


Actually there is no system laid out in Infinite Insights, however there are some structural advisories and a list of techniques and forms that can be interpreted by any instructor as he sees fit.


> For all of Doc's denunciations of motion kenpo, even he does not move like Mr. Tatum.


Thank you for the compliment, but for the record sir, I have never denounced motion kenpo. I have always stated the quality of that kenpo has always been predicated on the knowledge level and willingness of its instructors to teach it.


> Tatum teaches the system laid out in Infinite Insights.


As far as you understand it sir.


> That would appear to be what Mr. Parker wanted to be taught.


And you say that because of what?


> Maybe Mr. Parker taught Mr. Chapel something different. Many dispute this claim. I refuse to take sides on an issue whose only supporting evidence involves the claims of interested parties.


It would seem you already have. Have you gone through All the 'supporting evidence?" After all there are a couple people around who were there who might disagree with you.


> However, the proof is in the motion, and no one moves like Mr. Tatum. Furthermore, the proof is in one's lineage. Look at the like's of Rick Jeffcoat, Daryl Liner, Juan Serrano, and Clyde Obriant. All move with the same signature. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill. Having shared the mats with Clyde on several occasions, I would challenge anyone to slap leather with him and make the claim that he does not know what he's talking about.


I'm curious as to how this came to be a Ron Chapél versus Tatum camp, although I do have an idea. Especially since you site your sharing the mat with Clyde as your barometer as to who is good at what they do, and of course not allowing for anyone outside of the Tatum Lineage to at least be respectable. Trolling by proxie perhaps? At any rate you are entitled to your opinon sir, however I take it as it is from the LTKKF Orange Belt source your profile indicates. 

My only questions is, when did you stand in front of Mr. Parker with the ability and knowledge to evaluate what he was doing relative to someone else? For the record, my questions are rhetorical in as much I do not anticpate rationality to suddenly appear from those who run such errands in between working on purple material.

At least you have the Hawaiian back handed non compliment down. As the Old Man told me if you lead any statement with, "No disrespect," or end any statement with, "I don't mean that in a bad way," you can pretty much say anything.

I know you're entitled to your own opinion and no disrespect, but I think you're way out of your league, and I was a Parker black belt before you were born, but I don't mean that in a bad way.


----------



## Bode

Damn, Doc beat me to the response. I had it all planned out. You stole my witty reply!


----------



## Doc

Bode said:
			
		

> Damn, Doc beat me to the response. I had it all planned out. You stole my witty reply!


Normally I wouldn't but, he was so obvious standing there with his hands down, I just had to hit him.


----------



## Goldendragon7

kenpohack said:
			
		

> I've seen almost every luminary in the kenpo community move, and no comes close to matching Tatum's speed, fluidity, grace, and explosive power. The proof is in the motion, and one's lineage.  I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill.



Mr. Tatum _*is*_ highly skilled ... I agree.  That is  _one_ reason why he was the manager of Mr. Parker's Santa Monica Studio and  then the West LA Studio for a few years until they parted company for personal  reasons.

However, don't confuse what you say you have  _personally_ "*SEEN*" with what you have  *not* personally "*FELT*" from other well known Kenpo  personalities!  

I can tell you that the likes of *Steve LaBounty*,  *Tom Kelly*, *Ralph Castellanos*, *Mike Pick*, *Bob Liles*,  *Ron Chape'l* and many, many others have much more _effective  execution_ to their credit than you may realize.  One shouldn't confuse "looks" with application.

We are all proud  of our instructors (as it should be), but let this not blind us to others that  may be much better, stronger, or more knowledgeable.

Remember...........  You don't know.. what you don't know!

:asian:


----------



## hongkongfooey

kenpohack said:
			
		

> I know I'll take flak for this remark, but no one moves like Larry Tatum. I've seen almost every luminary in the kenpo community move, and no comes close to matching Tatum's speed, fluidity, grace, and explosive power. I mean no disrespect to any other master, but no one else comes close to matching Parker's mode of movement. Paul Mills comes close; however, Mills is no longer teaching the system laid out in Infinite Insights 5.
> 
> For all of Doc's denunciations of motion kenpo, even he does not move like Mr. Tatum. Tatum teaches the system laid out in Infinite Insights. That would appear to be what Mr. Parker wanted to be taught. Maybe Mr. Parker taught Mr. Chapel something different. Many dispute this claim. I refuse to take sides on an issue whose only supporting evidence involves the claims of interested parties. However, the proof is in the motion, and no one moves like Mr. Tatum. Furthermore, the proof is in one's lineage. Look at the like's of Rick Jeffcoat, Daryl Liner, Juan Serrano, and Clyde Obriant. All move with the same signature. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill. Having shared the mats with Clyde on several occasions, I would challenge anyone to slap leather with him and make the claim that he does not know what he's talking about.


 

So when did you witness Ed Parker move? Are you basically saying that the guys like Doc, Dennis, Huk, Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Bob White, Steve LaBounty, Skip Hancock, Joe Palanzo, Mike Pick, Chuck Sullivan, etc. are teaching crap and only Larry Tatum is teaching something worth learning? 

Are you saying Clyde knows more about Kenpo than the seniors mentioned above? I don't recall anyone on here ever saying Clyde didn't know his stuff. Though he has time and time again stated that everyone else knows nothing next to him. Well, except for Larry Tatum of course.


----------



## MJS

Mr. Conatser,

Thanks for the detailed post above to my question.  If you don't mind me asking, what was the progression in the lessons from that point?  I'm assuming Mr. Parker at some point, geared the lessons towards his students individual needs?  I say this because it seems like Docs training was focused on different methods of executing techniques, etc. compared to others.  Doc, can you chime in on that? 

Mike


----------



## Goldendragon7

MJS said:
			
		

> Mr. Conatser,
> Thanks for the detailed post above to my question. If you don't mind me asking, what was the progression in the lessons from that point? I'm assuming Mr. Parker at some point, geared the lessons towards his students individual needs?
> Mike



1) You are certainly welcome.  2) I don't mind you asking.

3)  The  progression in the lessons after that was simply going thru the belt charts  basics, freestyle techniques, self defense techniques, forms & sets as well  as him sharing the pledges, sayings, terminology, principles, concepts and main  ingredients to the system (which I refer to as the Kenpo Architecture).   Throughout this journey we obviously discussed and studied various methods of  execution as well....... 

:asian:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Mr. Tatum _*is*_ highly skilled ... I agree.  That is  _one_ reason why he was the manager of Mr. Parker's Santa Monica Studio and  then the West LA Studio for a few years until they parted company for personal  reasons.
> 
> However, don't confuse what you say you have  _personally_ "*SEEN*" with what you have  *not* personally "*FELT*" from other well known Kenpo  personalities!
> 
> I can tell you that the likes of *Steve LaBounty*,  *Tom Kelly*, *Ralph Castellanos*, *Mike Pick*, *Bob Liles*,  *Ron Chape'l* and many, many others have much more _effective  execution_ to their credit than you may realize.  One shouldn't confuse "looks" with application.
> 
> We are all proud  of our instructors (as it should be), but let this not blind us to others that  may be much better, stronger, or more knowledgeable.
> 
> Remember...........  You don't know.. what you don't know!
> 
> :asian:


I'd like to remind the 'Kenpohack' that I was a black belt when Larry started kenpo. In fact I have a student who made black the day Larry made brown belt. I really don't know who put you up to this but you really don't do yourself or your organization any good following in the wrong footsteps. Think about it please. I've given Larry his share of compliments on the net, and I really don't think he needs you to stir things up for really no reason. As Angela is prone to say, "Back to the mats" and train.


----------



## kenpohack

Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach. That is my only point. Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum. That's great. From what I've seen, you don't move like him. Now, I will be fair by stating that I have never be hit my you. I've got the broken ribs to show what Clyde can do. I've felt the sting of Tatum's blows, as well. I can't say that you are not as skilled, that was never my intention. I will stand by my assertion that your motion and interpretation is very different from what I've been taught and what I've seen in other kenpo seniors (that's not an insult, you just have a different mode of movement). 

I will also confess that I was only a 7th grader when Mr. Parker passed, so I cannont say I have seen him move in person. I have seen video clips from demonstrations, however. From watching those clips, the only two seniors who move even close to Mr. Parker are Paul Mills and Larry Tatum. That does not mean other seniors don't move well. It's an issue of explosive motion. As Mr. Conatser stated, many other seniors also hit hard and move well.

I have seen what you do. It looks alot like kenpo mixed with Hapkido. I'm actually a blue belt in kenpo (I have not updated my profile), but I am also a black belt in Hapkido, and much of your material seems to have that flavor. I refuse to judge what you do because I have not seen it in person. As you probably well know, Clyde is my teacher's teacher; we all know how he feels about you. I don't parrot Clyde's opinions, nor do I speak for him. 

I also realize that you have people who support your claims. I've heard others who contravene your assertions. I don't really care if you're telling the truth or not because it has no bearing on my training. You can claim to be the Dalai Lama, the son of Jesus Christ, or the emperor of the universe for all I care. However, I do have one question for you: where did you get your PhD. and what discipline did you study? I'm just curious.


----------



## HKphooey

Each senior and kenpo practioner brings something to the table.  I pay no loyalty to one man except myself, the God above (so I guess that is 2 .  As i said earlier in a post, my loyalty is to learning.   Each group, camp, org., senior, brings something of value to our teaching.  And as long as we stay open minded (think goes for teachers letting their students check out material outside their teachings).  I have picked up some great things from all the greats.  I knew of MR. Chapel before joining this forum, but never really got too deep into SL4 material.  I now look at that side of a technique too (granted I think I was always looking at my solid basics and fundamentals).  I have learned some great materail form some great people over the years and I hope to continue to do so until I can no longer practice the amrtial arts.

Thanks for the great info on MT!


----------



## MJS

kenpohack said:
			
		

> Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach. That is my only point. Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum. That's great. From what I've seen, you don't move like him. Now, I will be fair by stating that I have never be hit my you. I've got the broken ribs to show what Clyde can do. I've felt the sting of Tatum's blows, as well. I can't say that you are not as skilled, that was never my intention. I will stand by my assertion that your motion and interpretation is very different from what I've been taught and what I've seen in other kenpo seniors (that's not an insult, you just have a different mode of movement).


 
Yes, this was one of the reasons I started this thread.  Everyone has their own 'way' of moving, but when I saw some moving different, but still the same, so to speak, and some that were moving unlike the others, I was curious as to the differences in the teachings.

I look forward to the continuing discussion. 

Mike


----------



## MJS

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> 1) You are certainly welcome. 2) I don't mind you asking.
> 
> 3) The progression in the lessons after that was simply going thru the belt charts basics, freestyle techniques, self defense techniques, forms & sets as well as him sharing the pledges, sayings, terminology, principles, concepts and main ingredients to the system (which I refer to as the Kenpo Architecture). Throughout this journey we obviously discussed and studied various methods of execution as well.......
> 
> :asian:


 
Thanks again. 

So, looking at the techniques, how would you say that the movement, applications, etc. differ from one person to the next?  I'm just curious, because as I stated earlier, it seems to me that there are some obvious differences between say you, Tatum and Chapel.

Thanks again and I look forward to your reply.

Mike


----------



## Goldendragon7

MJS said:
			
		

> {1} So, looking at the techniques, how would you say that the movement, applications, etc. differ from one person to the next?
> 
> It seems to me that there are some obvious differences between say you, Tatum and Chapel.



{1} Our (Kenpo) techniques, are just "*drills or exercises*" designed to  accomplish some [or many] goals.  Depending upon the knowledge, training and  expertise exercised, will in many cases determine what they achieve.  Some never  fully develop the "physical" aspects of human movement {known as 'basics' to  some, others more technically as kinesiology} which is mandatory to achieve  maximum application (if interpreted correctly).  Thus, one mans knowledge and  training differs greatly from another.

{2} Thank God there are  differences.......LOL  I would not want to be them!  (hee hee)  

In all  seriousness now...  As I stated in {1}, we are each our own individuals which  were forged by our own individual journeys.  Of course there are some  differences, we all have different body types yet we all move very similar as  well.  I can always tell an Ed Parker (American Kenpo) trained person by the  "mode of movement" that is displayed, as well as I can predict pretty close how  long he has trained and in some cases even who he trained with by certain  signature actions.

We all try to imitate our Founder as close as  possible.  However, we are [and never will be] not him.   In basketball, many  try to imitate Michael Jorden, Magic Johnson, Dr. J and many other greats that  played the game.  Many get close but few ever "totally" look like them.  Same  here in Kenpo,  We all try to move and look close to the founder {I personally  have spent hours studying him to imitate 'hand positions' 'mannerisms and even  try to talk like him at times} but each have our own personal differences and  always will.   

If you look at a family that have several children......  many of the offspring have traits and resemblances (some may even look like a  carbon copy of mom or dad) of one or both parents, yet other brothers or sisters  do not even look like they came from the same parents at all.  {get my  point}

Most of all what I have tried to accomplish is to be as effective  as he was, no matter what or how close I resembled him but rather focus on the  end result of what he taught.

:asian:


----------



## Kenpodoc

kenpohack said:
			
		

> I Look at the like's of Rick Jeffcoat, Daryl Liner, Juan Serrano, and Clyde Obriant. All move with the same signature. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill. Having shared the mats with Clyde on several occasions, I would challenge anyone to slap leather with him and make the claim that he does not know what he's talking about.


The only one of Doc's students I've worked with is Tommy Chavies. i'd match him with any of the above. Huk Planas doesn't look like Tatum when he moves, it's simpler less flashy and remarkably effective. When he demos on me He is instantly in control, puts me where he wants me and confuses my nervous system. It is a remarkable experience because he is not using pain compliance and does not look like he is moving fast and yet he is in control. Huk's students are remarkably effective martial artists who know how and why they move like they do. Lee Wedlake and his students have solid basics, effective motion and are well worth working with. Mr. Labounty and his students move well and effectively, i'd work with any of them given the oportunity. Nothing against Mr. Tatum's students except that they always talk as if there is only one way to do Mr. Parker's Kenpo and that everyone else doesn't know the one true way. i'd be willing to slap leather with Mr. O'briant given the opportunity but I'm sure he'd whup me. On the otherhand Mr. Chavies or Martin Wheeler would likely see him as a light snack and be ready for more. Nothing against Clyde I respect his willingness to put himself on the line, but he's not the only one who has ever done that.

Jeff


----------



## Kenpodoc

kenpohack said:
			
		

> For all of Doc's denunciations of motion kenpo, even he does not move like Mr. Tatum.


Doc does not denounce "motion Kenpo/commercial Kenpo", he does say that it is only as good as the instructor/Student. He offers a more labor intensive version of Kenpo with less initial room for freedom of expression. Everytime I try one of Doc's experiments, I become more of a believer. It's not different than what I've been taught but has refinements that help me be more effective. If I didn't have family and other responsibilities he'd have to get me arrested as a stalker. Mr. Tatum is very good but somehow his followers frequently take any suggestion that others have good information to offer as a slam on Mr. Tatum. Personally i don't move like Mr. Tatum and don't think that I can physiologically, he is a very gifted Martial artist. I move slow and ugly. My instructor Mr. Hatfield and his instructor Mr. Wedlake move fluidly and well but with less flash than Mr. Tatum. They have still been able to make me far more effective than I ever dreamed possible.

Question, I have heard Mr. Wedlake and read Dr. Chapel both speak of possible body alignment disruption with poorly timed or placed slap checks. I have never heard Mr. Tatum or his students speak of this. Is this a difference in philosophy or is there agreement on this concern?

Respectfully,

Jeff


----------



## ammonihah99

Sorry to jump in here, but I have to comment.



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach.



Everybody's got differenceslearn from them, don't evaluate them simply by their existence.



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum. That's great. From what I've seen, you don't move like him.



Why does it matter how somebody moves in relation to how someone else moves? In its most base form, all movements are judged on a scale of effectiveness in direct relation to their objective. Disagree?



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> Now, I will be fair by stating that I have never be hit my you.



Then take my word for itit hurts. I'm sure a lot of other members of this forum could attest to that fact. But then again a baseball bat hurts too. Is pain the most effective measurement martial artists can use for judging movements?



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I've got the broken ribs to show what Clyde can do.



I admit my ignorance as to who Clyde is, but broken ribs inherently do not define a movement's effectiveness. I've seen broken ribs for lack of control, so unless Clyde's objective was expressly to break your ribs, I fail to see the point.



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I will also confess that I was only a 7th grader when Mr. Parker passed, so I cannont say I have seen him move in person. I have seen video clips from demonstrations, however. From watching those clips, the only two seniors who move even close to Mr. Parker are Paul Mills and Larry Tatum. That does not mean other seniors don't move well. It's an issue of explosive motion. As Mr. Conatser stated, many other seniors also hit hard and move well.



Again I fail to see the importance of comparing movements. As I understand it, Mr. Parker wanted everyone to study Kenpo in their own way, to make it their own, to constantly improve on what they have been taught. Because minds vary and bodies vary, movements will vary. I suppose he understood and welcomed that fact.



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I'm actually a blue belt in kenpo (I have not updated my profile)



I would counsel you to stick around for another 10 years and see how your opinion varies then.



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I refuse to judge what you do because I have not seen it in person.



I think you've already done a good job with that.



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I don't really care if you're telling the truth or not because it has no bearing on my training.



You should care. Truth is universal, if he has truth to share, and if you are a seeker of truth, you will greatly value what he has to say.



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> However, I do have one question for you: where did you get your PhD. and what discipline did you study? I'm just curious.



Bro, for being a relatively low rank and claiming to not judge anyone, you sure have ruffled some feathers. I suggest not making it a habit.

Ammon


----------



## kevin kilroe

If kenpohack had his ribs broken as an orange or blue belt by his instructor, what is that saying? A lack of control or a sadistic streak? Anyone with a minimum amount of training can break ribs. It's demonstrating speed and power with control that, in my opinion, makes for an effective instructor. I am reminded of Joe Piscopo in the " Karate Kid" movie for some strange reason.

Kevin Kilroe


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

kevin kilroe said:
			
		

> If kenpohack had his ribs broken as an orange or blue belt by his instructor, what is that saying? A lack of control or a sadistic streak? Anyone with a minimum amount of training can break ribs. It's demonstrating speed and power with control that, in my opinion, makes for an effective instructor. I am reminded of Joe Piscopo in the " Karate Kid" movie for some strange reason.
> 
> Kevin Kilroe


 
Agreed to a degree.  I'm curious as to why it would be necessary to break a colored belts ribs if that is indeed what happened.  That are many reasons for this such as 1) a lack of control on the instructor's part, 2) over agressiveness on the students part resulting in the student getting "thumped" to stop the aggression 3) the student running into the instructor's shots, 4) a general misjudgement of the student's range, durability or closing speed...

There are lots of possiblities on this, so I'd wait before passing judgement.


----------



## Carol

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Agreed to a degree. I'm curious as to why it would be necessary to break a colored belts ribs if that is indeed what happened. That are many reasons for this such as 1) a lack of control on the instructor's part, 2) over agressiveness on the students part resulting in the student getting "thumped" to stop the aggression 3) the student running into the instructor's shots, 4) a general misjudgement of the student's range, durability or closing speed...
> 
> There are lots of possiblities on this, so I'd wait before passing judgement.


 
Clyde prolly doesn't need Kenpo to break anyone's ribs.  He's quite strapping.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Agreed to a degree. I'm curious as to why it would be necessary to break a colored belts ribs if that is indeed what happened. That are many reasons for this such as 1) a lack of control on the instructor's part, 2) over agressiveness on the students part resulting in the student getting "thumped" to stop the aggression 3) the student running into the instructor's shots, 4) a general misjudgement of the student's range, durability or closing speed...
> 
> There are lots of possiblities on this, so I'd wait before passing judgement.


 
Good point. While the initial desire is there to blame Clyde for a lack of control, other circumstances can contribute. Last nasy rib break, I LEAPED into the other guy as soon as I saw him twitch to initiate movement. He was throwing a side kick to guage distance, and I effectively impaled myself on it. His fault? Nope. My own. Strategic re-education.

What does strike me as odd is that, in a sea of kenpo practitioners and a couple dozen seniors, this guy has decided -- after limited exposure -- that the pan-ultimate in kenpo movement is Larry. Mr. Parker didn't move like Mr. Tatum, either...perhaps someone should go back in time and tell him he's doing it wrong.


----------



## DavidCC

Is it the ubiquity of the inernet video clip that has fostered "moves like" as the ultimate barometer of kenpo skill?

I think we can all agree that there are professional wushu people who can move in ways that look like wire-work, and are truly awe-inspiring. And I think we can pretty much agree that this is no indication of any ability to defend themselves.

So why do we think we can look at a kenpo video and see the person's depth of ability just from observing how fluid is their joint movement or how fast their hands?



> Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach


 
ROFL this was probably taken as a compliment. 

but seriously, You may be able to "see" what the LTKKF teaches on video, but I know first-hand, 90% of what I have learned about SL-4 principles cannot be seen. Well, you can see it, but unless you are told what it is you either won't notice it, or won't know what you are looking at even if you do notice it. Yes, I thought statements like that were BS until I arranged for Doc to come to my school and do a weekend of seminars and now I know.



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum.


I think you mis-read. he was a BB before Tatum was a WHITE belt. Doc had a STUDENT who made black when Tatum made brown...

phd... yawn
What would you say if it turned out that Doc Chapel's PhD was in, say, Cinematography, or Animal husbandry, or Basket Weaving for that matter? Would that change anything? :deadhorse


----------



## Bode

kenpohack said:
			
		

> However, I do have one question for you: where did you get your PhD. and what discipline did you study? I'm just curious.



It's on display, in the school, for all STUDENTS to see. Beyond that, Doc has nothing to prove to anyone. The subject has become a unnecessary focal point for people who can't attack his Kenpo.... instead, they attack the person.


----------



## Rich_Hale

Bode said:
			
		

> It's on display, in the school, for all STUDENTS to see. Beyond that, Doc has nothing to prove to anyone. The subject has become a unnecessary focal point for people who can't attack his Kenpo.... instead, they attack the person.


 
Gee Whizz Bode, 

You SL4 guys can be so touchy sometimes. 

Missed you at the Chapel Family BBQ yesterday. 

Without you and Dave I had to talk to Doc the entire day and he doesn't beleive half my stories/lies.


----------



## Doc

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Is it the ubiquity of the inernet video clip that has fostered "moves like" as the ultimate barometer of kenpo skill?
> 
> I think we can all agree that there are professional wushu people who can move in ways that look like wire-work, and are truly awe-inspiring. And I think we can pretty much agree that this is no indication of any ability to defend themselves.
> 
> So why do we think we can look at a kenpo video and see the person's depth of ability just from observing how fluid is their joint movement or how fast their hands?
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL this was probably taken as a compliment.
> 
> but seriously, You may be able to "see" what the LTKKF teaches on video, but I know first-hand, 90% of what I have learned about SL-4 principles cannot be seen. Well, you can see it, but unless you are told what it is you either won't notice it, or won't know what you are looking at even if you do notice it. Yes, I thought statements like that were BS until I arranged for Doc to come to my school and do a weekend of seminars and now I know.
> 
> 
> I think you mis-read. he was a BB before Tatum was a WHITE belt. Doc had a STUDENT who made black when Tatum made brown...
> 
> phd... yawn
> What would you say if it turned out that Doc Chapel's PhD was in, say, Cinematography, or Animal husbandry, or Basket Weaving for that matter? Would that change anything? :deadhorse


And some people wonder why you can't get 'seniors' (including Larry) to post regularly and answer questions. Clearly my mere existence must disrupts someones ability to pursue their study path. I know I'm stopping hordes of people from paying their money, and studying with the instructor of their choice. I really need to stop that. Some people have some serious emotional problems and can't be happy unless others give them permission and validation.

I hereby give permission to all who see no value in my teachings, or understandings of the arts, to continue on with the teacher(s) of their choice with no fear of condemnation on my part. You have my permission to pay as much money as you would like, and accept whatever your teacher(s) says as gospel. I do not however give you permission to feel better about what you do by attempting to discredit myself or what I teach. rather than chip a way at my family tree, you should try climbing your own, especially if you're happy with it.


----------



## Doc

Rich_Hale said:
			
		

> Gee Whizz Bode,
> 
> You SL4 guys can be so touchy sometimes.
> 
> Missed you at the Chapel Family BBQ yesterday.
> 
> Without you and Dave I had to talk to Doc the entire day and he doesn't believe half my stories/lies.


I do, however believe everything your lovely wife has to say. What a jewel. Now what drug did you say you used to get her to marry you again?

Really enjoyed your company buddy. Get ready for the Superbowl Party.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:
			
		

> ...Clearly my mere existence must disrupts someones ability to pursue their study path. I know I'm stopping hordes of people from paying their money, and studying with the instructor of their choice. I really need to stop that. Some people have some serious emotional problems and can't be happy unless others give them permission and validation.
> 
> I hereby give permission to all who see no value in my teachings, or understandings of the arts, to continue on with the teacher(s) of their choice with no fear of condemnation on my part. You have my permission to pay as much money as you would like, and accept whatever your teacher(s) says as gospel.....


 
Priceless


----------



## MJS

Reading over a few posts online, I came across a few things, which IMHO, bring up some good points. Looking at this post:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=563087&postcount=13

Dave discusses some technical points regarding SL4. I also came across this video clip in the same thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAa7I0r2bOg

Looking at this clip of Doc, I see some differences in the application of this technique. Regardless, it still looks like its pretty effective to me.

I do realize that this is only a clip and the fine points most likely will not be picked up, but again, I think that the basic point is being made.

Mike


----------



## Rich_Hale

Doc said:
			
		

> I do, however believe everything your lovely wife has to say. What a jewel. Now what drug did you say you used to get her to marry you again?
> 
> Really enjoyed your company buddy. Get ready for the Superbowl Party.


 
I told you Doc, she fell in love with my charming good looks, wit, and personality . . . . 

Okay, it was endorphins, Advil and beer.


----------



## hongkongfooey

kenpohack said:
			
		

> Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach. That is my only point. Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum. That's great. From what I've seen, you don't move like him. Now, I will be fair by stating that I have never be hit my you. I've got the broken ribs to show what Clyde can do. I've felt the sting of Tatum's blows, as well. I can't say that you are not as skilled, that was never my intention. I will stand by my assertion that your motion and interpretation is very different from what I've been taught and what I've seen in other kenpo seniors (that's not an insult, you just have a different mode of movement).
> 
> I will also confess that I was only a 7th grader when Mr. Parker passed, so I cannont say I have seen him move in person. I have seen video clips from demonstrations, however. From watching those clips, the only two seniors who move even close to Mr. Parker are Paul Mills and Larry Tatum. That does not mean other seniors don't move well. It's an issue of explosive motion. As Mr. Conatser stated, many other seniors also hit hard and move well.
> 
> I have seen what you do. It looks alot like kenpo mixed with Hapkido. I'm actually a blue belt in kenpo (I have not updated my profile), but I am also a black belt in Hapkido, and much of your material seems to have that flavor. I refuse to judge what you do because I have not seen it in person. As you probably well know, Clyde is my teacher's teacher; we all know how he feels about you. I don't parrot Clyde's opinions, nor do I speak for him.
> 
> I also realize that you have people who support your claims. I've heard others who contravene your assertions. I don't really care if you're telling the truth or not because it has no bearing on my training. You can claim to be the Dalai Lama, the son of Jesus Christ, or the emperor of the universe for all I care. However, I do have one question for you: where did you get your PhD. and what discipline did you study? I'm just curious.


 
So all of this Larry Tatum has the glow, and everyone else sucks BS, has a point afterall.

You guys in O'Briantland, can't disprove what Doc teaches, so you still try to tear the man down by attacking him on a personal level. Doc's college degrees have absolutly nothing to do with this thread. It's been beat to death on this forum. Why not give the a little respect for a change.


----------



## MJS

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Doc's college degrees have absolutly nothing to do with this thread.


 
Thats correct.  I didn't start this thread to discuss college degrees, but instead to ask some questions about the variations in the material.  

So...back to the original question.  

Again, I have only had the chance to work with two of Kenpos Seniors at seminars.  I'm hoping that those that have had the chance to experience some of the other Seniors can give some feedback as to any differences that they may have seen.

Mike


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Rich_Hale said:
			
		

> Gee Whizz Bode,
> 
> You SL4 guys can be so touchy sometimes.
> 
> Missed you at the Chapel Family BBQ yesterday.
> 
> Without you and Dave I had to talk to Doc the entire day and he doesn't beleive half my stories/lies.


 
Well, I missed ya chief. 4th BBQ with the above mentioned company and yar'n would have blown doors on how I actually DID spend my 4th.

Looking forward to the next installment of lies,

Dave


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:
			
		

> Thats correct. I didn't start this thread to discuss college degrees, but instead to ask some questions about the variations in the material.
> 
> So...back to the original question.
> 
> Again, I have only had the chance to work with two of Kenpos Seniors at seminars. I'm hoping that those that have had the chance to experience some of the other Seniors can give some feedback as to any differences that they may have seen.
> 
> Mike


 
Mike...

You've probably heard us yap about alignment and breaking down the other guys structure. In the alternating maces vid, look for some of the following:

1. At the very beginning of the vid, you can see the poor uke dropping rapidly to a light bop to an acupuncture point inside the upper forearm. Notice the effect it has of tipping him forward and to the side...watch it a couple times rigth in a row, and notice what happens to A) his right shoulder first, B) left shoulder 2nd, C) spine in the neck and upper back D) spine where it intersects with the pelvis, E) balance on his feet (weight distribution). I call this being shaken or pulled out of your tree or saddle. Basically, misaligned. 

2. Docs left hand comes into view, RELEASING the attackers right wrist...fingers to the inside of the contact points just below the palm. The carpal row is flattened, further setting the stage for misalignment. Doc pauses long enough to let the guy regain his composure a bit...meaning, he doesn't keep thwacking away on the guy while he's fubared like this. Courtesy to demo dummy. In SL4, that misaligned state is EXACTLY when you want to hit 'em.

3. Rather than just launching into the backnuckle as the last move, he inserts a check of sorts under the jaw with his forearm. If you don't like the guy, that's a solid impact that rattles the noggin.

4.  On the backfist, watch the rear hand come up, as if a billiards or croquet bunt that sends the backfist forward. Proprieceptive check/index that helps Doc realign prior to bashing the poor lad. 

On several occasions Doc has posted that the main diff with SL4 is not the "what", but the "how". The read for alternating maces in a text format would be almost the same as elsewhere...inward hammering block over the top of the attackers arms, followed by punch to bod, (insert rising forearm check-like thingy), backnuckle to beneath ear. What differs is the small stuff that goes on WHILE you're doing the WHAT.

How does the inside downward hammering block strike the attackers arms? Specifically, where? What did that block do on the way to it's final destination in order to recruit maximum muscle engagement (not caught on film is the pre-positioning of the block...rather than point-of-origin to point-of-contact, it comes from behind like a soft ball pitch that starts low and to the side, then comes up near the ear before descending on that pressure point). 

Training with Doc is a brain drain...takes a lot to keep up with the occasional data dumps he goes off on, which is why training is methodical, slow, intentional. To engrain the subtle HOW differences into the performance of the physical techniques.

There are several AM vids out there...as a matter of fact, there's a thread running on alternating maces on kenpotalk, and the consensus seems to be that its for teaching stance changes, dimensional zones, etc. That's more of the WHAT. Dissect video of practitioners whenever you can, and look for subtleties of motion in the delivery that inform you about the detail they pay to HOW.  This, unfortunately, can be easier said than doen. Like the man said...if you don't know what you're looking for, you may well miss it. I may well miss some neat stuff coming from other models, becaue I'm watching to see if they index or not.

Lotsa cool stuff out there.

Dave


----------



## bayonet

*Mods,please lock this thread.* Lets see who's better, Van Halen or Steve Vai? No wait Jimi Hendrix ripped too but Jimmy Page may have the edge. Dimebag Darryl could rip but Zakk Wylde is better, NO wait Randy Rhodes was the man. No, I disagree Joe Satriani is the man. Well hold on I think Van Halen has them all beat. Well let's not forget Ynwvie Malmsteen. Redundant. I wish I could play guitar half as good as any of the aforemention. Same with ALL the senior Kenpoist. Give them ALL respect, think about all the YEARS they have invested and are still going..


----------



## MJS

Dave,

Thanks for the great reply!:asian:   I'm sure its quite an extremely detailed learning experience training with Doc.  I've talked for a long time now, about taking a trip to Ca.  When the time comes that I actually do it, I just may have to look you guys up.  Seeing is believing and I'm sure it would be worth the view.

Mike


----------



## Seig

Doc said:
			
		

> rather than chip a way at my family tree, you should try climbing your own, especially if you're happy with it.


Aha! Doc, I have you! Shouldn't that read, "try creating your own"?
MWAHAHAHAHA!:rofl:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

bayonet said:
			
		

> *Mods,please lock this thread.* Lets see who's better, Van Halen or Steve Vai? No wait Jimi Hendrix ripped too but Jimmy Page may have the edge. Dimebag Darryl could rip but Zakk Wylde is better, NO wait Randy Rhodes was the man. No, I disagree Joe Satriani is the man. Well hold on I think Van Halen has them all beat. Well let's not forget Ynwvie Malmsteen. Redundant. I wish I could play guitar half as good as any of the aforemention. Same with ALL the senior Kenpoist. Give them ALL respect, think about all the YEARS they have invested and are still going..


 
While I'm sure you think your post was insightful, I would like to point out that a couple people in this thread have stated...a couple times...that each of the seniors is good at a particular talent. When people HAVE tried turning this into a pissing contest, others have returned the thread to discussion of differences. There have been some excellent contributions and point-counterpoint dialogues by longstanding members of both kenpo and MT.

Passion is good. Misplaced, it's embarrassing.

Dave


----------



## Doc

Seig said:
			
		

> Aha! Doc, I have you! Shouldn't that read, "try creating your own"?
> MWAHAHAHAHA!:rofl:


Well sir normally I would agree with you, but when a blue belt comes to a forum with those kind of comments, he must be building his own tree.

(OK you got me)


----------



## KenpoRonin

As I read the above arguments I see many fallacies in your presentation of information.  I dont know if you are familiar with logic and inductive reasoning in terms of presenting valid arguments but many of the above arguments are in violation of these rules.


Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum.  Who cares Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out.  Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument.

[Mr. Tatum *is* highly skilled ... I agree. That is _one_ reason why he was the manager of Mr. Parker's Santa Monica Studio and then the West LA Studio for a few years until they parted company for personal reasons.

However, don't confuse what you say you have _personally_ "*SEEN*" with what you have *not* personally "*FELT*" from other well known Kenpo personalities! 

I can tell you that the likes of *Steve LaBounty*, *Tom Kelly*, *Ralph Castellanos*, *Mike Pick*, *Bob Liles*, *Ron Chape'l* and many, many others have much more _effective execution_ to their credit than you may realize. One shouldn't confuse "looks" with application.

We are all proud of our instructors (as it should be), but let this not blind us to others that may be much better, stronger, or more knowledgeable]

I am always sick of people who claim because someone hits hard that makes them GREAT.  I have shared the floor with two of the above men and only seen pictures of the rest.  These are all big men, men who would hit hard if they studied any style of martial art or just grew up in the streets.  The first time I met LaBounty and Kelly I was intimidated and I am 6 2.  If I took Mike Tyson and gave him a yellow belt, that wouldnt make him a great Kenpoist, you would just have a really small sparring class.

[So when did you witness Ed Parker move? Are you basically saying that the guys like Doc, Dennis, Huk, Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Bob White, Steve LaBounty, Skip Hancock, Joe Palanzo, Mike Pick, Chuck Sullivan, etc. are teaching crap and only Larry Tatum is teaching something worth learning? 

Are you saying Clyde knows more about Kenpo than the seniors mentioned above? I don't recall anyone on here ever saying Clyde didn't know his stuff. Though he has time and time again stated that everyone else knows nothing next to him. Well, except for Larry Tatum of course.]

Now I know that this going to be a touchy subject, but we all know that Parker was constantly revising the system, making it better.  Now I know that others will disagree with that.  Though if you look at difference in the dynamics of the system through the decades it is rather obvious that the system got better as time went on.  Many of the old timers, while they are tough as nails didnt get all the new material.  So I think that it is fair to say that on a case by case basis there are guys while having been around for a while longer may not have all of the system.  We also know that Tatum was constantly in contact with Parker getting lessons and material.  He was named as one of three air-apparent to the system.  So I think that it can be said that Tatum would have more of the system than almost anyone else.  Now Clyde has been with Tatum for a very long time and has been one of his top students so it is fair to say that Clyde would also have most of what Tatum has to offer and therefore one of the most knowledgeable people in Kenpo.

[Each senior and kenpo practioner brings something to the table.]

I see this posted all the time, what a bunch of crap.  Not everyone has something to offer.  My aunt Gene used to bring fruit cakes to Thanksgiving dinner, nobody ate it.  So I guess she brought something, but it was nothing good.  I guess you could then make the argument that some people who bring crap to the table still bring something so you can compare the really good with the really crappy.


----------



## Ray

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> ...I see many fallacies in your presentation of information. I dont know if you are familiar with logic and inductive reasoning .....violation of these rules.


 


			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum..... fallacy of that argument.


I don't see where Mr. Chapel is using his length in the system as evidence of any superior skill -- to me it looks more like historical evidence from a witness...maybe testimony. While the_ branch of philosophy_ called "Logic" may have its set of rules, the discovery of truth in other areas may or may not exactly follow that set of rules. For example, the testimony of a witness in a trial who has establishes credibility during questioning adds weight to the argument.


----------



## KenpoRonin

So then why did he bring it up.  why did he feel it necessary that he had black belts before Tatum got his brown belt.  I can't see any other reason for the comment, so let me know why?

As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA.  So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> So then why did he bring it up. why did he feel it necessary that he had black belts before Tatum got his brown belt. I can't see any other reason for the comment, so let me know why?
> 
> As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence


 
Hard evidence? There is no hard evidence. That's what Chapel was responding to. As a fan of critical thinking, allow me to assist you in following a part of the thread that Doc was rebutting, using the same fallacy inferred by another poster.

Argumentum ad verecundium...appeal to authority. Someone had mentioned that nobody moved like Larry: He infers in this statement that Larry is the sole comparator of excellence in kenpo that others ought to be compared to. An unsupported proposition, in which the hidden presupposition (Larry is the comparator) has not been sufficiently demonstrated.

If the inference had been spelled out in a proposition, than the presuppositions and the proposition itself could be directly challenged. They were not. It may have been written:

(p1) Larry is the authority on correct kenpo movement.
(p2) The others do not move like Larry
conc: Therefore, the others are not engaging in correct kenpo movement.

But the guy didn't do that. So, left to address the underlying, unstated assertion, Doc and others provided information that would compete with the proposition that Larry, alone, is the authority on how kenpo movement ought to be done. The contradictory evidence is the existence itself of non-Larry people who also had exhaustive exposure to -- and training with -- Ed Parker, but who do NOT move the way Larry moves.

I will take this one step further for you:

p1: Larry, although very fast and very good, does not move like Mr. Parker
p2: Only people who move like Mr. Parker are any good.
conc: Therefore, Larry is no good.

Oh, wait...now we're getting into "junk logic" (actually, we've already been there). Logic only dictates that the conclusion follow from the propositions (p1 : p2 --> conclusion). Evidence is weighted not on proper conclusions, but rather on the weight of the propositions themselves. Mr. Chapel, et al, are rebutting through the introduction of contrary propositions. 

"This is true, because the Leading Authority (a pope, kenpo senior, whomever) sez it is" is an appeal to authority. The first question must always be...who made them the authority? The Pope is only an authority in the Catholic church, because the Church says so. He is not an authority on a non-Cathoilic judo mat, non-Catholic tune-up garage, or in a non-Catholic knitting circle. Larry is the most knowledgeable senior in kenpo...because his admirers say he is. Outside his sphere of influence, the "verecundium" part may not be concurred with.

I moved with the old man. I would offer that Mr. Tatum does not move as Parker did. He is phenom-fast, and very technical; he was, after all, a protege of Mr. P for many years. He was not, however, the only bright and talented long-time student of Mr. Parker's. He does not move with the same density or thickness Mr. P brought...those who have been on the wrong side of Mr. Parker will know that to which I refer.

Prove to me the truth of the proposition that Larry, alone, represents the best model of motion for kenpo, and we can continue that train of thought. Until then, it's really only opinion, being presented as fact.

And you're right...not everyone brings something to the table. Some guys out there are just idiots, but folks (including Doc) are too busy being PC to just blurt that out. Ironically, if he did, that would likely be the subject of future attacks.

Argumentation and debate; logic and critical thinking; rhetoric...they are not truth. Ideally, they are tools for discovering the truth... an old sophist idea that Plato even gave a nod to by allowing the character of a notable sophist of their time to argue Socrates almost to a draw in his accounting of the trial. But they are not, in fact, truth. What's that thing about looking at the finger pointing to the moon, instead of looking at the moon itself?

Regards,

Dave


----------



## hongkongfooey

Excellent post, Dave!

Dave


----------



## Carol

From the students in Mr. Tatum's lineage, I'm reading about how Mr. Tatum has a signature, explosive style, and that his senior students have been able to learn Mr. Tatum's signature style.  

An implied point sis student's outside Mr. Tatum's lineage do not have the same style, and some students outside of Mr. Tatum's style, such as KenpoDoc and Dr. Dave concur.

The style of Mr. Tatum and the establishment of his ability to teach his signature style translates into Mr. Tatum teaching the correct system - is that the point at issue?  

Am I following this properly or did I get lost?


----------



## Ray

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> So then why did he bring it up. why did he feel it necessary that he had black belts before Tatum got his brown belt. I can't see any other reason for the comment, so let me know why?


While I cannot say that I know what was going through Mr. Chapel's mind when he made that post.  It looks to me like he was saying that someone who was posting (not Mr. Tatum) didn't know what they were talking about; that Mr. Chapel was an eye witness and was speaking from personal knowledge.  I don't see where Mr. Chapel spoke ill of Mr. Tatum in the thread.  I think the following is the post that you're speaking to:



			
				doc said:
			
		

> I'd like to remind the 'Kenpohack' that I was a black belt when Larry started kenpo. In fact I have a student who made black the day Larry made brown belt. I really don't know who put you up to this but you really don't do yourself or your organization any good following in the wrong footsteps. Think about it please. I've given Larry his share of compliments on the net, and I really don't think he needs you to stir things up for really no reason. As Angela is prone to say, "Back to the mats" and train.


 


			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence


Co-incidentally, there is an interesting article on "hard evidence" in this month's scientific american.  I cannot speak to what Mr. Chapel learned from Mr. Parker, but I have some books that were printed while Mr. Parker was living--allegedly written by Mr. Parker-- that show photos of Mr. Chapel demonstrating kenpo.  I use that as evidence of Mr. Chapel's study of Kenpo with Mr. Parker (at least back to the 1980's).  I'm sure I can find further evidence. 

Unless the photos were forged and Mr. Parker just picked some guy off the street to make a good demonstration of kenpo for a book (which I'm guessing he wanted to be the best it could be) then that places Mr. Chapel as a kenpoist with Mr. Parker.  It is a far more solid piece evidence for me (that Mr. Chapel was a student of Mr. Parker) than would a hair from Mr. Chapel's head found at Mr. Parker's studio, and analyzed for DNA
would be.

DNA evidence can place a person (or a piece of a person) at a particular location.  Probably cannot be used to tell what that person was doing at the time.


----------



## Brother John

No offense to the original author of the question...
but I think the line of reasoning leading to the presumption of a "Correct" system.
Historically correct? That depends on what phase of the system you're discussing I suppose. But even that wouldn't come up with ONE system. 

Correct according to book 5? I really don't think that it was the objective of the infinite insights books to crystalize what the system was, but to put forth the premises of the art, and show Mr. Parker's ideas that lead to much of it.

There are effective, less effective and more effective systems; and the systems aren't effective at 'fighting' but at preparing people to be ready for fighting.

just a strange line of questioning I think.
But that's just my opinion.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Brother John said:
			
		

> No offense to the original author of the question...
> but I think the line of reasoning leading to the presumption of a "Correct" system.
> Historically correct? That depends on what phase of the system you're discussing I suppose. But even that wouldn't come up with ONE system.
> 
> Correct according to book 5? I really don't think that it was the objective of the infinite insights books to crystalize what the system was, but to put forth the premises of the art, and show Mr. Parker's ideas that lead to much of it.
> 
> There are effective, less effective and more effective systems; and the systems aren't effective at 'fighting' but at preparing people to be ready for fighting.
> 
> just a strange line of questioning I think.
> But that's just my opinion.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
I say, old chap. Well said.

D.


----------



## MJS

Brother John said:
			
		

> No offense to the original author of the question...
> but I think the line of reasoning leading to the presumption of a "Correct" system.
> Historically correct? That depends on what phase of the system you're discussing I suppose. But even that wouldn't come up with ONE system.
> 
> Correct according to book 5? I really don't think that it was the objective of the infinite insights books to crystalize what the system was, but to put forth the premises of the art, and show Mr. Parker's ideas that lead to much of it.
> 
> There are effective, less effective and more effective systems; and the systems aren't effective at 'fighting' but at preparing people to be ready for fighting.
> 
> just a strange line of questioning I think.
> But that's just my opinion.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
John, no offense taken.  As I said before, I originally started this thread to gain more of an insight on the various methods of teaching that we have here.  You're no stranger to this forum, KT or KN, so I'm sure you've seen more than your share of posts, with people saying, no this is not the way to do that, its this way, and so on.  I think that its safe to say that Doc is the only one who is doing Kenpo with that SL4 touch to it.  That being said, I was simply curious as to how his teachings with Mr. Parker varied from the others out there.

As for the other issues that are being discussed, such as a degree or who got what belt before who...that has nothing to do with the thread IMHO, and serves as nothing but an attempt to derail it.  

Mike


----------



## AmericanKenpoChris

I have never seen Mr. P move with the exception of a few internet clips.  I own the entire Tatum library on dvd, as well as the Huk Planas forms dvds.  Additionally, I have seen Sasaki and Tabatabai move on video.

I personally have my own favorite as far as dvds go.  I can't say how well other seniors move or if they move differently.  Some do leaping crane with a hop, others with a step.  Maybe the ones that stepped were just large guys, and the step was more practical for them.  Maybe the larger guys don't have the flash, but more backup mass.

Metaphorically, I don't know who the best orphan is.  Spanky, Alfalfa, and Buckwheat have all grown up.  They all were taught by Mrs. Crabtree.  But my money is on Darla being the master.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Soooooooo Did Mr. Parker move like Professor K. S. Chow....... ?

Just a question?

:idunno:


----------



## hongkongfooey

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Soooooooo Did Mr. Parker move like Professor K. S. Chow....... ?
> 
> Just a question?
> 
> :idunno:


 
My guess would be no. 

I wonder what Larry Tatum thinks of this kind of stuff?


----------



## Doc

AmericanKenpoChris said:
			
		

> I have never seen Mr. P move with the exception of a few internet clips.  I own the entire Tatum library on dvd, as well as the Huk Planas forms dvds.  Additionally, I have seen Sasaki and Tabatabai move on video.
> 
> I personally have my own favorite as far as dvds go.  I can't say how well other seniors move or if they move differently.  Some do leaping crane with a hop, others with a step.  Maybe the ones that stepped were just large guys, and the step was more practical for them.  Maybe the larger guys don't have the flash, but more backup mass.
> 
> Metaphorically, I don't know who the best orphan is.  Spanky, Alfalfa, and Buckwheat have all grown up.  They all were taught by Mrs. Crabtree.  But my money is on Darla being the master.


I'm sorry sir , but as charming and cute as Darla was, the answer is still Farina.


----------



## KenpoRonin

To Kembudo-Kai Kempoka  
Martial Talk
Master Black Belt 


I would like to agree with you, because for the most part you said nothing wrong though you got a little verbose.  But that being said you still didn't answer the question that I posed and since you are quoting me in your post that makes you guilty of diverting from the subject.  

As for the claim that I am using hard evidence to make a case for Tatum being superior to All else I don&#8217;t believe I said that.  There many great martial artist who specialize in a variety of areas.  There are those who focus heavy into sparing and those who do heavy conditioning, forms experts and those who do self defense techniques.  There is no one guy who does all these better than the rest.  I think it may even be safe to say that Parker himself wasn&#8217;t the best in all these fields.  That being said Parker was the Grand Master of the system and a true master of the art.  Logic would then dictate that there is one guy who might have taken the place of Parker after his death.  This person would have more knowledge, more understanding and truer grasp on how to make the system work and pass it on.


----------



## green meanie

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Parker was the Grand Master of the system and a true master of the art. Logic would then dictate that there is one guy who might have taken the place of Parker after his death. This person would have more knowledge, more understanding and truer grasp on how to make the system work and pass it on.


 
I'm not sure if I agree with your logic but just out of curiosity, who are you suggesting that person might be?


----------



## Brother John

MJS said:
			
		

> John, no offense taken. As I said before, I originally started this thread to gain more of an insight on the various methods of teaching that we have here. You're no stranger to this forum, KT or KN, so I'm sure you've seen more than your share of posts, with people saying, no this is not the way to do that, its this way, and so on. I think that its safe to say that Doc is the only one who is doing Kenpo with that SL4 touch to it. That being said, I was simply curious as to how his teachings with Mr. Parker varied from the others out there.
> 
> As for the other issues that are being discussed, such as a degree or who got what belt before who...that has nothing to do with the thread IMHO, and serves as nothing but an attempt to derail it.
> 
> Mike


I'm sorry Mike, I didn't mean to make you feel that you needed to justify your reasoning for me. 
In retrospect, maybe it's not your original post here that I don't agree with, but the ideology (of others) that made you ask it in the first place. I don't understand the "Traditionalism" approach either, and would question to find out WHY it exists as well. 

Here's what I think; take it or leave it:
I don't think there is a "Correct" system, because I don't think it was all about the 'system' in the first place... at least not the information that was given out in mass as "American Kenpo Karate". 

I think that this _system_ was a means of expressing a concept, that it was conceptually based. It seems to me that Mr. Parker was actually, often, INSPIRED by his students unique talents and outlooks....and therefore his lessons would be shaped to their abilities or potential. (that's what a good instructor does) Therefore his "paradigm" would shift to be appropriate for each student. As the 'system' was conceptually different, when you shift the paradigm....the system comes out differently each time.

Perhaps those who stick to the way the 'system' was at the point of Mr. Parker's death do so out of a sense of nostalgia or a desire to not 'lose' any of the worth that Mr. Parker had embedded in the system. God Bless'm, I can understand their motivation! Mr. Parker inspired devotion, though he seldom was shown it so much. But I think the best instructors we have hold tighter as Stewards of Mr. Parker's vision of the system.....not to it's matrices or superstructure....but to the reasoning and ideology that was it's genesis in the first place. In this way I think that the system should serve the vision, not BE the vision. 

Mr. Tatum learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the knowledge given him in HIS way.

Mr. Mills learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the vision given him as well, in HIS way.

Mr. Chapel learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the understanding that he gained from Mr. Parker and continues on in His Own way.

I single these three gentlemen out because they are two (in MY book) of the more active 1st generation students in the public eye....yet their "Systems" are different.....markedly different....
YET they are each FINE *"Stewards"* of the paradigm given by their teacher, mentor and friend....and they each carry their torch _*well.*_
They are EACH "Correct" in that they hold true to the "Way" that was shown them, which was driven by Mr. Parker's "Idea" of Kenpo...he 
lit their fire, and they each keep it burning bright.

Something to Think about. (after all, seems to me that THAT was what Mr. Parker tried to make people DO the most, not just the physical actions of Kenpo, but to THINK....critically and deeply.....for Themselves. In this way, we can each be as "Correct" as we can be. And we've got Great Seniors to point the way.  ....and that transcends "System" by leaps and bounds.)

Your Brother
John


----------



## Monadnock

Good points John. This is not something unique to Parker Kenpo either. For example, there are many versions of Aikido people can choose from too. If you find a teacher who is teaching what works for you, then I say do it.

Most systems and arts are several generations passed the founder's time, and few preserve exactly what was taught, save for some koryu arts...maybe. I can understand wanting to hang on to what was taught in the early days, because it may have been closer or right from the head of the style, so that's where these types of questions kind of originate.

The best thing to do is find a line of knowledge that has ties to the roots, and a teacher who can at least explain what was different and why, in case that's not how they are teaching it now. Parker Kenpo is fortunate in that there are many first generation students still around, if that is the art you are into.


----------



## hongkongfooey

green meanie said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if I agree with your logic but just out of curiosity, who are you suggesting that person might be?


 

Yeah. I'm a bit curious too.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> To Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
> Martial Talk
> Master Black Belt
> 
> 
> I would like to agree with you, because for the most part you said nothing wrong though you got a little verbose. But that being said you still didn't answer the question that I posed and since you are quoting me in your post that makes you guilty of diverting from the subject.
> 
> As for the claim that I am using hard evidence to make a case for Tatum being superior to All else I dont believe I said that. There many great martial artist who specialize in a variety of areas. There are those who focus heavy into sparing and those who do heavy conditioning, forms experts and those who do self defense techniques. There is no one guy who does all these better than the rest. I think it may even be safe to say that Parker himself wasnt the best in all these fields. That being said Parker was the Grand Master of the system and a true master of the art. *Logic would then dictate that there is one guy who might have taken the place of Parker after his death. This person would have more knowledge, more understanding and truer grasp on how to make the system work and pass it on.*


 
How...HOW does logic dictate this? 42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot. I'm thinking this kind of non-sequiter conclusion comes from the same place.

Dave


----------



## Bode

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Logic would then dictate that there is one guy who might have taken the place of Parker after his death.  This person would have more knowledge, more understanding and truer grasp on how to make the system work and pass it on.



Logic in no way dictates a successor of Mr. Parker. I'd love to see the syllogism for that one...Since there is no ONE way that is correct, how can ONE person have a "truer grasp".
And yes, I'd be interested to hear your oppinions about who the successor is.


----------



## pete

the art of Baguazhang was founded in the mid 1800's in Beijing by the imperial palance eunoch Dong Hai Chuan.  He was already an accompished martial artist and reknowned fighter when he happened across a Taoist monk who taught him the circle walking which is a now trademark of the art, but at that point was a shamanistic ritual for internal alchemy. Dong developed it for fighting and for 10 years taught one student, Yin Fu.

Yin was also employed by the imperial palace, although not a eunuch, and was sent to the northern regions with Dong to collect taxes. Yin was already skilled in the Lohan arts. When people didn't want to readily part with their money Dong and Yin took it by force.

After returning to the palace, Yin began teaching other guards the art taught to him by Dong.  Unfortunately, Yin and Dong had a falling out, and Dong figured the best recourse was to Stop teaching Yin and begin teaching anybody elso who would listen. Yin no longer had the distinction of being the only 'disciple', even though he was the first.

Of all Dong's newer students, came Cheng Ting Hua. Cheng was the Shuai Jiao champion and already was well known in martial circles.  Cheng wnet on to teach Baguazhang publicly to many students at the same time Yin Fu taught.  

Because of there different body types, backgrounds, and skills Dong Hai Chuan taught them differently.  Yin's style has more emphasis on striking while Cheng's has more focus on throwing.   

Today, there is Cheng Style Bagua and Yin Style Bagua, amoung other styles from other students over the years, such as Sun Lu Tang, a student of Cheng. 

I dont think these guys named the style after themselves at the time, but 150 some-odd years later their lineages used the founders names to differentiate.  

They are all correct, and all trace back to Dong Hai Chuan's art as he taught it to them... 

Maybe what American Kenpo needs is a little more time and generations for Tatum-style, Chapel-style, Palanzo-style, Mills-style, etc to be acceptable, and correct in the line of Ed Parker's art.

or, maybe not... ??

pete


----------



## Doc

The answer to the question, "So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?" is .....


*YOUR* teacher, until *YOU* find a better one.

Now that we got that out of the way, I suggest we move on to something productive like ....... say, What's the best team in the NFL going into training camp? Me? I'm a die-hard Raider Fan, trying to outlive Al Davis.


----------



## MJS

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'm sorry Mike, I didn't mean to make you feel that you needed to justify your reasoning for me.
> In retrospect, maybe it's not your original post here that I don't agree with, but the ideology (of others) that made you ask it in the first place. I don't understand the "Traditionalism" approach either, and would question to find out WHY it exists as well.


 
No problem John.   I think we're more on the same page than a different one. 




> Here's what I think; take it or leave it:





> I don't think there is a "Correct" system, because I don't think it was all about the 'system' in the first place... at least not the information that was given out in mass as "American Kenpo Karate".
> 
> I think that this _system_ was a means of expressing a concept, that it was conceptually based. It seems to me that Mr. Parker was actually, often, INSPIRED by his students unique talents and outlooks....and therefore his lessons would be shaped to their abilities or potential. (that's what a good instructor does) Therefore his "paradigm" would shift to be appropriate for each student. As the 'system' was conceptually different, when you shift the paradigm....the system comes out differently each time.
> 
> Perhaps those who stick to the way the 'system' was at the point of Mr. Parker's death do so out of a sense of nostalgia or a desire to not 'lose' any of the worth that Mr. Parker had embedded in the system. God Bless'm, I can understand their motivation! Mr. Parker inspired devotion, though he seldom was shown it so much. But I think the best instructors we have hold tighter as Stewards of Mr. Parker's vision of the system.....not to it's matrices or superstructure....but to the reasoning and ideology that was it's genesis in the first place. In this way I think that the system should serve the vision, not BE the vision.
> 
> Mr. Tatum learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the knowledge given him in HIS way.
> 
> Mr. Mills learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the vision given him as well, in HIS way.
> 
> Mr. Chapel learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the understanding that he gained from Mr. Parker and continues on in His Own way.
> 
> I single these three gentlemen out because they are two (in MY book) of the more active 1st generation students in the public eye....yet their "Systems" are different.....markedly different....
> YET they are each FINE *"Stewards"* of the paradigm given by their teacher, mentor and friend....and they each carry their torch _*well.*_
> They are EACH "Correct" in that they hold true to the "Way" that was shown them, which was driven by Mr. Parker's "Idea" of Kenpo...he
> lit their fire, and they each keep it burning bright.
> 
> Something to Think about. (after all, seems to me that THAT was what Mr. Parker tried to make people DO the most, not just the physical actions of Kenpo, but to THINK....critically and deeply.....for Themselves. In this way, we can each be as "Correct" as we can be. And we've got Great Seniors to point the way. ....and that transcends "System" by leaps and bounds.)
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
IMHO, I think that everyone has their own unique thing that they did with the art.  A good example of this would be Mr. Mills.  He's made some changes, and certainly ones that people think should not have been made.  Regardless, what he does is working for him and his students.  Going on the analogy that you used above, it seems to me that there really is no one correct way, but instead, many different ways.  

Mike


----------



## kenpohack

To set the record straight, I did not say that Tatum is the standard of comparison for good kenpo. I believe that is Ed Parker. Tatum does teach the last upgrade or version of the system that was made public by Mr. Parker. Furthermore, Tatum moves with the speed and explosive power of Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker even said so in an early 80's issue of Black Belt Magazine. 

That being said, Tatum does not move like Parker, in an exact sense. Ed Parker was well over 250 lbs. At times, I've heard it speculated that he could have been as heavy as 280. He was a big man. Tatum is only 180 lbs. soaking wet. There is just no way he can generate the power of Parker, since they have comparable speed, with such disparity in back-up mass. As a matter of physics, it is impossible. Tatum would either have to be bigger than Parker or much faster to generate sufficent force to overcome Parker's larger frame. However, my point was, and is , that no one exhibits the same speed and fluidity of motion. I never spoke to effectiveness. Tatum moves very impressively. He is also very effective. I have shared the mats with him and felt his strikes. However, others may be just as effective but lack the flash and flare. It's interesting that no else, save maybe Paul Mills, has developed the same signature explosion. Truthfully, while Mr. Mills hits hard, he still doesn't have the grace and fluidity of Mr. Tatum. That was my point.

Mike Tyson didn't move the the grace and class of Muhammed Ali, but he still hit hard. He was, at one time, still a great fighter. This thread asked for an opinion. When an opinion was given, it ruffled some feathers. To those who were upset, you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Yes, I am of low rank, but I don't give a damn. If you don't like my opinion, prove me wrong. If you do, no hard feelings. If you get offended, Walgreens sells Vagisil for those sensitive moments.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Bode said:
			
		

> Logic in no way dictates a successor of Mr. Parker. I'd love to see the syllogism for that one...Since there is no ONE way that is correct, how can ONE person have a "truer grasp".
> And yes, I'd be interested to hear your oppinions about who the successor is.


 
Ok let me ask you this question which is more likely that there is one person better than the rest or that there are two people who are exactly the same in talent, teaching ability... and all that other good stuff.  OR that all these supposed grand masters are all equal in talent and ability.

Now lets take that further, we now have many different styles of Kenpo and I bet you think that they are equal.  That sounds very Communistic.
We are equal and special in our own way, now lets all hold hands and sing kum-bi-ya. What a bunch of crap.


----------



## BallistikMike

Why is it that many Kenpoist feel that staying true to a segment of one mans journey (Ed Parker's) feel it is the true "Method" of Kenpo and in the same breath rip apart another man's journey in Kenpo to shreads when he continues on with the journey?

It should be the exact opposite. Those who stay with a portion of Ed Parker's journey and bronze it in time like baby shoes should actually admit it.


----------



## Hand Sword

Could it be said from all of this that the answer to the question  is both no one and everyone?

IMHO Ed Parker's Kenpo died with him. He's the only one that could do it the way that he truly wanted, as it was designed from his inner thoughts.
Everyone else was taught, copied Mr. Parkers way, and as time went on, getting the concepts down, found their own ways.

I think we all will do this. Eventually a style or system becomes yours with enough time.


----------



## Bode

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok let me ask you this question which is more likely that there is one person better than the rest or that there are two people who are exactly the same in talent, teaching ability... and all that other good stuff.  OR that all these supposed grand masters are all equal in talent and ability.
> 
> Now lets take that further, we now have many different styles of Kenpo and I bet you think that they are equal.  That sounds very Communistic.
> We are equal and special in our own way, now lets all hold hands and sing kum-bi-ya. What a bunch of crap.


 
I never said anything about anyone being "equal". You read into what I was saying for some reason. There is a distinct difference between the word equal and saying, "there is no ONE way that is correct..."
As Brother John said, each person learned specific lessons geared towards their abilities and needs. That doesn't mean they are equal, they're different, but nontheless valid for THAT PARTICULAR TEACHERS skill and lessons as taught by Mr. P. 

I don't think all of Kenpo is equal in any shape or form. If you look back on this thread and other threads you will notice that I, and Doc, always say, it's up to the teacher. How good is your teacher? Do you believe that he is teaching you what YOU need. 

No one can ever win this ridiculous debate and some people keep bringing it back up again. Aside from a battle of the seniors where it's an all out brawl, how will we ever really know? It's a senseless debate. Saying that all of the teachers are valid in some way allows us to push the debate aside and move on to usefull dialogue. So please... stop....


----------



## Hand Sword

Bode said:
			
		

> No one can ever win this ridiculous debate and some people keep bringing it back up again. Aside from a battle of the seniors where it's an all out brawl, how will we ever really know? It's a senseless debate. Saying that all of the teachers are valid in some way allows us to push the debate aside and move on to usefull dialogue. So please... stop....


 
Yeah, It always comes down to the school yard, doesn't it!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   O.K. I'll see everyone there at 3 O'clock sharp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ( Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!)


----------



## marlon

Doc said:
			
		

> The answer to the question, "So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?" is .....
> 
> 
> *YOUR* teacher, until *YOU* find a better one.
> 
> Now that we got that out of the way, I suggest we move on to something productive like ....... say, What's the best team in the NFL going into training camp? Me? I'm a die-hard Raider Fan, trying to outlive Al Davis.


hate to say it but i am a Giants fan through and through

marlon


----------



## Doc

marlon said:
			
		

> hate to say it but i am a Giants fan through and through
> 
> marlon


Nothing wrong with that. I like Tiki.


----------



## Hand Sword

Doc said:
			
		

> The answer to the question, "So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?" is .....
> 
> 
> *YOUR* teacher, until *YOU* find a better one.
> 
> Now that we got that out of the way, I suggest we move on to something productive like ....... say, What's the best team in the NFL going into training camp? Me? I'm a die-hard Raider Fan, trying to outlive Al Davis.


 
Without question... the Patriots! Nobody is deeper than them overall. Over the last few years the injury bug has bitten them beyond normal. They've been down to the back ups for the back ups, and still won post season games.

BTW, Do you wear all the paint and gear?


----------



## Carol

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Without question... the Patriots! Nobody is deeper than them overall. Over the last few years the injury bug has bitten them beyond normal. They've been down to the back ups for the back ups, and still won post season games.
> 
> BTW, Do you wear all the paint and gear?


 
Amen!  Our depth is darn good this year now that everyone's healthy again.  Indy is going to be trouble.   Dungy made a good choice in drafting Addai, IMO...that fellow is really fast.  Not sure how he is at reading a front line though.

I think this is going to be a great season.  I'm psyched :ultracool




Hmmm....Doc?  Is this yours sir?  :rofl:

irate:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok let me ask you this question which is more likely that there is one person better than the rest or that there are two people who are exactly the same in talent, teaching ability... and all that other good stuff. OR that all these supposed grand masters are all equal in talent and ability.
> 
> Now lets take that further, we now have many different styles of Kenpo and I bet you think that they are equal. That sounds very Communistic.
> We are equal and special in our own way, now lets all hold hands and sing kum-bi-ya. What a bunch of crap.


 
It is better to keep your silence and let people THINK you're a ... aw, nevermind. What's the point. If you haven't gotten it yet, you probably can't.

D.

PS -- I really miss Robert on these threads sometimes. Even if we didn't agree, at least his logic was...well, logic; his questions, questions, and his disassembly of contradictory viewpoints, sound.


----------



## Monadnock

Bode said:
			
		

> I don't think all of Kenpo is equal in any shape or form. If you look back on this thread and other threads you will notice that I, and Doc, always say, it's up to the teacher. How good is your teacher? *Do you believe that he is teaching you what YOU need.*
> 
> No one can ever win this ridiculous debate and some people keep bringing it back up again. Aside from a battle of the seniors where it's an all out brawl, how will we ever really know? *It's a senseless debate.* Saying that all of the teachers are valid in some way allows us to push the debate aside and move on to usefull dialogue. So please... stop....


 
The only problem is that students don't really know what they need...at least at the beginning and intermediate levels. They may think that they do, or think that they have the whole art summed up and in a nice little package with a price next to it, but hopefully later they will discover there is a lot more to it, and hopefully that the teacher is capabale of giving it to them.

I agree on the next part.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> It is better to keep your silence and let people THINK you're a ... aw, nevermind. What's the point. If you haven't gotten it yet, you probably can't.
> 
> D.
> 
> PS -- I really miss Robert on these threads sometimes. Even if we didn't agree, at least his logic was...well, logic; his questions, questions, and his disassembly of contradictory viewpoints, sound.


 
That's a nice Ad Hominem attack...

Maybe I am not making my point clear.  Ed Parker was a genius.  Not only did he create a new and unique system of fighting, he also came to many ground breaking discoveries into the mechanics of the human body.  He then took that knowledge and built a system around it.  That is Ed Parkers system and what we often refer to as EPAK.  These discoveries include: Concepts and Principles of motion, Zone cancellation, Ranging, and many others.  He also created a curriculum so that there would be uniformity so that a black belt in one school should have the same material as one at another school.  He also had a series of progression in learning.  Beginners start by learning the motion of Kenpo, Stances&#8230;. When you get more advanced you start learning how to apply that motion so that you can use it effectively in combat.  This is where I think that much of info is lost or where many upper ranks don&#8217;t have all the knowledge.  The reason I say that is that I have heard instructors men in the journey, tell me that this technique doesn&#8217;t work or you need to change it to that.  Then I see another instructor show me how to use that technique to make it work or how the attack is supposed to be done to set the catalyst to make the technique work.  It is here where I am sure that there are teachers who know more about the system than others.
I say this because I have shared the mat with many high ranking black belts in the system.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Monadnock said:
			
		

> The only problem is that students don't really know what they need...at least at the beginning and intermediate levels. They may think that they do, or think that they have the whole art summed up and in a nice little package with a price next to it, but hopefully later they will discover there is a lot more to it, and hopefully that the teacher is capabale of giving it to them.
> 
> I agree on the next part.


 
Well said, I would take it even further and say even some advanced students whom have been sheltered by their instructor or by geographical boundaries.  Just because someone has been given a black belt doesnt mean they have the system.  You see this all the time with people whom have been adopted into the system.  And because they have several school they keep getting rank but dont have the system.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> That's a nice Ad Hominem attack...
> 
> Maybe I am not making my point clear. Ed Parker was a genius. Not only did he create a new and unique system of fighting, he also came to many ground breaking discoveries into the mechanics of the human body. He then took that knowledge and built a system around it. That is Ed Parkers system and what we often refer to as EPAK. These discoveries include: Concepts and Principles of motion, Zone cancellation, Ranging, and many others. He also created a curriculum so that there would be uniformity so that a black belt in one school should have the same material as one at another school. He also had a series of progression in learning. Beginners start by learning the motion of Kenpo, Stances. When you get more advanced you start learning how to apply that motion so that you can use it effectively in combat. This is where I think that much of info is lost or where many upper ranks dont have all the knowledge. The reason I say that is that I have heard instructors men in the journey, tell me that this technique doesnt work or you need to change it to that. Then I see another instructor show me how to use that technique to make it work or how the attack is supposed to be done to set the catalyst to make the technique work. It is here where I am sure that there are teachers who know more about the system than others.
> I say this because I have shared the mat with many high ranking black belts in the system.


 
If you wanted to say that some have more of the picture than others, or are better at it, I would have agreed with you 100%. But that wasn't stated, or inferred. You stated that logic dictated that someone had the whole shebang. As a history point, Parker spoke about a Philosophers Hoody (my spoof word) which he would grant to a successor...someone he deemed had the whole pic. He never gave it to anyone. One of the guys he preened to be a successor, he also fired...then was around with several more years of development befroe passing. An earlier guy he preened for successor took the knowledge, and split with it to form his own association. After that, he was a bit more conservative about giving ANYBODY the entire picture.

All we were saying on this board, which you seemed to disagree with (and I could be wrong), was that no one guy had it all. There are some closer than others, but even they lack some of the stuff that Mr. Parker apparently felt they ought to have had to earn that distinction. I'll go on record saying this: Mr. Tatum smokes. Faster and more knowledgeable than I'll ever be. Closer to Mr. P than I was; more knowledgeable in the body of information that IS kenpo than I. Near as I can tell, Clyde is one of his lieutenants. That puts Clyde closer to Mr. Tatum's body of knowledge than I. But also remember this: Mr. Tatum was not the only one close to Parker, or who spent a lot of training time with him. Particularly in the 80's, as he was working on revisions. Mr. Conatser (who posted on this very thread as GoldenDragon7) was a constant companion while Mr. Parker was out on seminar and testing circuits...think he had some access to the old man, and what he thought kenpo should be?  Mr. Chapel was not only a long time student, but close personal friend, with Mr. P coming to HIS house to hang out, and they worked together on some of the latest video project that Mr. P was humping out prior to his slipping away. Is it possible he had some insights into what the old man envisioned for kenpo?

There were several core groups that Mr. P was working with independently from each other, each convinced that they were the central/main/core group... on a timeline, these groups were training with Mr. P closer to the time of his death than Mr. Tatum...in other words, after these two men had a parting of the ways. Either they (the people in these groups) were all getting the same thing (which Mr. Tatum may or may not have had access to, as many were also his students), or they were all getting something different. In which case, no one person has the whole puzzle...which seems to be the conclusion of the people that were closest to Mr. Parker, personally and professionally. Of which neither you nor I are one.

To logon on and say "This senior is the best, and closest to what Parker wanted" without knowing the history of the relationships they had, or of the timelines, or even Mr. Parkers peculiar personality characteristics of being diplomatic to your face then limiting your access to resources after you've walked away...this demonstrates, to me (my own opinion), a type of ignorance.

Who did Mr. Parker give the Philosophers cape to? No one. Go figure. And then, with a straight face, and not looking like a fool, tell me that one senior over all the others is the schnizzle.

Best Regards,

Dave


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> If you wanted to say that some have more of the picture than others, or are better at it, I would have agreed with you 100%. But that wasn't stated, or inferred. You stated that logic dictated that someone had the whole shebang. As a history point, Parker spoke about a Philosophers Hoody (my spoof word) which he would grant to a successor...someone he deemed had the whole pic. He never gave it to anyone. One of the guys he preened to be a successor, he also fired...then was around with several more years of development befroe passing. An earlier guy he preened for successor took the knowledge, and split with it to form his own association. After that, he was a bit more conservative about giving ANYBODY the entire picture.
> 
> All we were saying on this board, which you seemed to disagree with (and I could be wrong), was that no one guy had it all. There are some closer than others, but even they lack some of the stuff that Mr. Parker apparently felt they ought to have had to earn that distinction. I'll go on record saying this: Mr. Tatum smokes. Faster and more knowledgeable than I'll ever be. Closer to Mr. P than I was; more knowledgeable in the body of information that IS kenpo than I. Near as I can tell, Clyde is one of his lieutenants. That puts Clyde closer to Mr. Tatum's body of knowledge than I. But also remember this: Mr. Tatum was not the only one close to Parker, or who spent a lot of training time with him. Particularly in the 80's, as he was working on revisions. Mr. Conatser (who posted on this very thread as GoldenDragon7) was a constant companion while Mr. Parker was out on seminar and testing circuits...think he had some access to the old man, and what he thought kenpo should be? Mr. Chapel was not only a long time student, but close personal friend, with Mr. P coming to HIS house to hang out, and they worked together on some of the latest video project that Mr. P was humping out prior to his slipping away. Is it possible he had some insights into what the old man envisioned for kenpo?
> 
> There were several core groups that Mr. P was working with independently from each other, each convinced that they were the central/main/core group... on a timeline, these groups were training with Mr. P closer to the time of his death than Mr. Tatum...in other words, after these two men had a parting of the ways. Either they (the people in these groups) were all getting the same thing (which Mr. Tatum may or may not have had access to, as many were also his students), or they were all getting something different. In which case, no one person has the whole puzzle...which seems to be the conclusion of the people that were closest to Mr. Parker, personally and professionally. Of which neither you nor I are one.
> 
> To logon on and say "This senior is the best, and closest to what Parker wanted" without knowing the history of the relationships they had, or of the timelines, or even Mr. Parkers peculiar personality characteristics of being diplomatic to your face then limiting your access to resources after you've walked away...this demonstrates, to me (my own opinion), a type of ignorance.
> 
> Who did Mr. Parker give the Philosophers cape to? No one. Go figure. And then, with a straight face, and not looking like a fool, tell me that one senior over all the others is the schnizzle.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Dave


 
You forgot this part.....

so there!

Ok post finished, good post.

This whole arguement of "this instructor is closet to the source and is therefore the greatest" is pointless for one reason. Why argue that someone was the closet to being only "second-best"? Why not just skip that and go "this senior was better at kenpo and knew more about it than SGM Parker himself". When I see these posts come up I think two things.

1) ok so this person thinks that their instructor or instructor's instructor is "the greatest thing since sliced bread."

and

2) Flag on the play! Which flag you ask?
:bs: this one.


----------



## Flying Crane

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> The reason I say that is that I have heard instructors men in the journey, tell me that this technique doesnt work or you need to change it to that.
> 
> Then I see another instructor show me.... how the attack is supposed to be done to set the catalyst to make the technique work.


 

I'm not sure I'd put a lot of trust in an instructor who instilled a belief that an attack has to be done a certain way, to make a certain technique work.  If this is what you believe, given the chaotic and random nature of fighting, I'd say there's a good chance that none of your techniques would work.  Ever.


----------



## Doc

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> That's a nice Ad Hominem attack...
> 
> Maybe I am not making my point clear.  Ed Parker was a genius.  Not only did he create a new and unique system of fighting, ...


correct


> he also came to many ground breaking discoveries into the mechanics of the human body.


Incorrect.


> He then took .... knowledge and built a system around it.


Correct


> That is Ed Parkers system and what we often refer to as EPAK.


SOME refer to


> These discoveries include: Concepts and Principles of motion, Zone cancellation, Ranging, and many others.


These were not 'discoveries,' but explorations of existing material.


> He also created a curriculum so that there would be uniformity so that a black belt in one school should have the same material as one at another school.


The operative word being *SHOULD*. This was only on paper, not reality as instructors operated autonomously in business and promotions.


> This is where I think that much of info is lost or where many upper ranks dont have all the knowledge.


I would agree except I wouldn't say 'lost.' In most cases, it's more likely they never had it.


> I say this because I have shared the mat with many high ranking black belts in the system.


Which system?


----------



## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I'd put a lot of trust in an instructor who instilled a belief that an attack has to be done a certain way, to make a certain technique work.  If this is what you believe, given the chaotic and random nature of fighting, I'd say there's a good chance that none of your techniques would work.  Ever.


Sorry sir, but all attacks fall within certain parameters as dictated by body mechanics, and the "Psycology of Confrontations," and to a certain extent are always predictable. 

Even in training for 'randon events,' you must pick a componant of the 'anticpated radomness' and train for it within a strictly identifiable and repeatable physical sequence. Although in practice, it may appear chaotic and random, it is only to those not well trained or familiar with what is occurring.

*"Spontaneity is just accessing a block of well understood and trained 
material without thinking."* - Ron Chapél

(Even 'Ray-Ray' can do it)


----------



## KenpoRonin

Doc said:
			
		

> Sorry sir, but all attacks fall within certain parameters as dictated by body mechanics, and the "Psycology of Confrontations," and to a certain extent are always predictable.
> 
> Even in training for 'randon events,' you must pick a componant of the 'anticpated radomness' and train for it within a strictly identifiable and repeatable physical sequence. Although in practice, it may appear chaotic and random, it is only to those not well trained or familiar with what is occurring.
> 
> *"Spontaneity is just accessing a block of well understood and trained *
> *material without thinking."* - Ron Chapél
> 
> (Even 'Ray-Ray' can do it)


 
Thanks doc for making my point, otherwise why do we have three counters for a rear two hand choke. Because people don't just stand there and put there hands on you and wait for you to do something.


----------



## Doc

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Thanks doc for making my point, otherwise why do we have three counters for a rear two hand choke. Because people don't just stand there and put there hands on you and wait for you to do something.


On that sir, we can be sure.


----------



## Flying Crane

Doc said:
			
		

> Sorry sir, but all attacks fall within certain parameters as dictated by body mechanics, and the "Psycology of Confrontations," and to a certain extent are always predictable.
> 
> Even in training for 'randon events,' you must pick a componant of the 'anticpated radomness' and train for it within a strictly identifiable and repeatable physical sequence. Although in practice, it may appear chaotic and random, it is only to those not well trained or familiar with what is occurring.
> 
> *"Spontaneity is just accessing a block of well understood and trained *
> *material without thinking."* - Ron Chapél
> 
> (Even 'Ray-Ray' can do it)


 
Of course.  

But the prior post gives the impression that one is waiting for a specific attack, and some variation in how it might come would suddenly make the defense technique unworkable.  Of course attacks tend to come in certain ways that are predictable within some amount of reason, but the impression given was that if the attack wasn't "just right", then the technique was useless.  But if one is skilled with their techniques, this range of randomness within the predictability should not be a problem.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Doc said:
			
		

> correct
> 
> Incorrect.
> 
> Correct
> 
> SOME refer to
> 
> These were not 'discoveries,' but explorations of existing material.
> 
> The operative word being *SHOULD*. This was only on paper, not reality as instructors operated autonomously in business and promotions.
> 
> I would agree except I wouldn't say 'lost.' In most cases, it's more likely they never had it.
> 
> Which system?


 
I agree that when it comes to the material he explored and revised. But it is the discoveries in motion that formed these changes. for instance look at the inward block.  In the 60's it was done where the motion followed a 90 degree angle.  Then he discovered the angle of scaption and the block now is executed like throwing a ball overhand.  For this motion newly discovered changed a pre-existing technique becomeing more effective.

I agree, most never had it


EPAK, I am referring to many names in the Journey and I have studied Our art.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Of course.
> 
> But the prior post gives the impression that one is waiting for a specific attack, and some variation in how it might come would suddenly make the defense technique unworkable. Of course attacks tend to come in certain ways that are predictable within some amount of reason, but the impression given was that if the attack wasn't "just right", then the technique was useless. But if one is skilled with their techniques, this range of randomness within the predictability should not be a problem.


 
I am not saying you waiting for a specific attack, I am saying that you are attacked a specific way and that is the catalyst for a specific technique.  Like a said why is it that we have three different attacks for two hand rear choke?


----------



## Flying Crane

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I am not saying you waiting for a specific attack, I am saying that you are attacked a specific way and that is the catalyst for a specific technique. Like a said why is it that we have three different attacks for two hand rear choke?


 
If I misunderstood your message, that's fine, but that was what I got out of it.  You have made yourself clear and now I understand better what you are trying to say.

Regarding the rear choke:  given my lack of experience with Parker curriculum (my kenpo is from Tracys) I am not at all sure to what you are referencing.  I would be happy to consider your point if you give some more information.


----------



## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Of course.
> 
> But the prior post gives the impression that one is waiting for a specific attack, and some variation in how it might come would suddenly make the defense technique unworkable.  Of course attacks tend to come in certain ways that are predictable within some amount of reason, but the impression given was that if the attack wasn't "just right", then the technique was useless.  But if one is skilled with their techniques, this range of randomness within the predictability should not be a problem.


Once again, agreed. Unfortunately for many what he states is true. When studying and training for a particular type of assault, there will always be what I consider minor variables, that should be anticipated, accounted for, and negated by a well formulated and designed technique sequence.

"Alternating Maces," (2 hand push from the front) is a good example.

Variables may include; Both hands push high, both hands push low, one hand high, one hand low, right leg forward, left leg forward, push follow through, push followed by a punch, and feint push followed by a punch, push followed by a grapple a high, or grapple low, as examples.

The technique sequence should cover all of these 'variables' without significantly altering the technique sequence, and if it doesn't, teachers and students should take another look.

Your point is well taken sir.


----------



## Doc

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I am not saying you waiting for a specific attack, I am saying that you are attacked a specific way and that is the catalyst for a specific technique.


You are correct sir as I see it. I think you both are. Just a minor misunderstanding, bred by the medium of choice for communications.


----------



## Flying Crane

Doc said:
			
		

> You are correct sir as I see it. I think you both are. Just a minor misunderstanding, bred by the medium of choice for communications.


 
The beauty of the internet...


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> If you wanted to say that some have more of the picture than others, or are better at it, I would have agreed with you 100%. But that wasn't stated, or inferred. You stated that logic dictated that someone had the whole shebang.


   Actually my point was that there was one person who had more of the system than any other.  I never said all, nor would I Parker was constantly changing so I would even say he didn't have it all.


[/quote]As a history point, Parker spoke about a Philosophers Hoody (my spoof word) which he would grant to a successor...someone he deemed had the whole pic. He never gave it to anyone. One of the guys he preened to be a successor, he also fired...then was around with several more years of development befroe passing. An earlier guy he preened for successor took the knowledge, and split with it to form his own association. After that, he was a bit more conservative about giving ANYBODY the entire picture.

All we were saying on this board, which you seemed to disagree with (and I could be wrong), was that no one guy had it all. There are some closer than others, but even they lack some of the stuff that Mr. Parker apparently felt they ought to have had to earn that distinction. I'll go on record saying this: Mr. Tatum smokes. Faster and more knowledgeable than I'll ever be. Closer to Mr. P than I was; more knowledgeable in the body of information that IS kenpo than I. Near as I can tell, Clyde is one of his lieutenants. That puts Clyde closer to Mr. Tatum's body of knowledge than I. But also remember this: Mr. Tatum was not the only one close to Parker, or who spent a lot of training time with him. Particularly in the 80's, as he was working on revisions. Mr. Conatser (who posted on this very thread as GoldenDragon7) was a constant companion while Mr. Parker was out on seminar and testing circuits...think he had some access to the old man, and what he thought kenpo should be? Mr. Chapel was not only a long time student, but close personal friend, with Mr. P coming to HIS house to hang out, and they worked together on some of the latest video project that Mr. P was humping out prior to his slipping away. Is it possible he had some insights into what the old man envisioned for kenpo?

There were several core groups that Mr. P was working with independently from each other, each convinced that they were the central/main/core group... on a timeline, these groups were training with Mr. P closer to the time of his death than Mr. Tatum...in other words, after these two men had a parting of the ways. Either they (the people in these groups) were all getting the same thing (which Mr. Tatum may or may not have had access to, as many were also his students), or they were all getting something different. In which case, no one person has the whole puzzle...which seems to be the conclusion of the people that were closest to Mr. Parker, personally and professionally. Of which neither you nor I are one.

To logon on and say "This senior is the best, and closest to what Parker wanted" without knowing the history of the relationships they had, or of the timelines, or even Mr. Parkers peculiar personality characteristics of being diplomatic to your face then limiting your access to resources after you've walked away...this demonstrates, to me (my own opinion), a type of ignorance.

Who did Mr. Parker give the Philosophers cape to? No one. Go figure. And then, with a straight face, and not looking like a fool, tell me that one senior over all the others is the schnizzle.

Best Regards,

Dave[/quote]


I agree and disagree.  I agree that when Parker died he did not pass on Excalibur to anyone.  I agree that he groomed two individuals both had their falling outs.  He also spent the last years of his life trying to give the info to a select few as the chosen ones.  

As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post.  But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to.  He did declare a successor.  One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor.  I also had an instructor who has all of Parkers old newsletters where he names three people as being the prodigies.  Now we all know that Parker and Tatum had a falling out over something, but a general conscience is that it was business.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

kenporonin said:
			
		

> I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor. I also had an instructor who has all of Parkers old newsletters where he names three people as being the prodigies. Now we all know that Parker and Tatum had a falling out over something, but a general conscience is that it was business.


 
Really, please scan that issue and post it.  I have the article (Black Belt magazine not newsletters) where Mr. Parker mentioned 3 proteges: Tatum, Palanzo and Kelly.  I have never seen and never heard of this issue of Black Belt that flat out names one person as a successor.  If there was such an issue there wouldn't be this ongoing debate for the last 16 years.  So please show this hard evidence....


----------



## jfarnsworth

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> .... If there was such an issue there wouldn't be this ongoing debate for the last 16 years. So please show this hard evidence....


Agreed.


----------



## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Really, please scan that issue and post it.  I have the article (Black Belt magazine not newsletters) where Mr. Parker mentioned 3 proteges: Tatum, Palanzo and Kelly.  I have never seen and never heard of this issue of Black Belt that flat out names one person as a successor.  If there was such an issue there wouldn't be this ongoing debate for the last 16 years.  So please show this hard evidence....


There was no Black Belt issue where Parker named a successor, and I suspect the gentleman is confusing it with the protegé article. Something Parker publicly later wished he hadn't stated for various reasons. He 'cleaned' it up later by simply saying he [Larry] was *A* protegé, *NOT THE* protegé. In the end it was *ALL* about business, and Larry ran the only Ed Parker owned school that made money at the time.

It should be noted Parker had multiple protegés in multiple areas of his lineage and evolution. Some stayed, but unfortunately most left, also for various reasons. The list is a virtual 'who's who' of Parker associates. This exodus continued until his death with Larry being one of the more well known a few years before he passed, but there were others equally well known, but less publicized who also were 'kicked out.' Larry was never kicked out, but was instead fired from Parker's employ, and chose to leave the association on his own. Had Larry opened his own school, I feel certain Parker would have continued to support him for business reasons if no other.

Now as far as the newletters, remember they were created to support the 'business' of the IKKA and the commercial system. Any so-called protegés would have been for the commercial busines of Kenpo as Larry was, and not all of Parker's interpretations. As an example, I was Parker's "Law Enforcement Proetgé" and worked on material particularly germane to what he considered a major branch in his teaching, yet few had insight to what we were doing. I however, in no way would consider myself a 'protegé' of other aspects of Ed Parker's teaching.


----------



## Prada Queen

Secrets of the Magician of Motion...ED PARKER. 
(First appeared in Black Belt Magazine, July 1979)​By John Corbett 

In place of children lost as successors, Parker noted he has taken on 
proteges to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.

"My *key protege* is this kid *Larry Tatum*," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. *He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything*. " 

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon. 

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, *Tom Kelly*, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; *Joe Palanzo*, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore. 


If I read this correctly, he lists Tatum as his key guy. 

Prada Queen


----------



## Bode

Damn. I guess I better quit SL4 and go study with Mr. Tatum.... see ya later Doc.


----------



## Carol

Bode said:
			
		

> Damn. I guess I better quit SL4 and go study with Mr. Tatum.... see ya later Doc.


 
Don't go, Bode 

Key protege does not mean successor.  "Key" means important.   I have a key protege right now at my enginerdy job.  This person will not be my successor but this person will be very important to team.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Prada Queen said:
			
		

> Secrets of the Magician of Motion...ED PARKER.
> (First appeared in Black Belt Magazine, July 1979)​By John Corbett
> 
> In place of children lost as successors, Parker noted he has taken on
> proteges to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.
> 
> "My *key protege* is this kid *Larry Tatum*," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. *He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything*. "
> 
> The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.
> 
> He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, *Tom Kelly*, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; *Joe Palanzo*, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.
> 
> 
> If I read this correctly, he lists Tatum as his key guy.
> 
> Prada Queen


 
Ok maybe I misquoted what I read but if you read into it just a little I do believe that he was giving Tatum all the info, I could be wrong, He was also training with all the time so I would assume that Tatum was going to be handed the throne but because of a dispute over business.  So while Parker didn't hand him the title, he most likey is the one with the most information.


----------



## Doc

Well you can always educate the ignorant, but .....

Anyway I guess my posts get ignored. Even if I accept what you're saying, and it would be a huge stretch, and there was only one Kenpo, which it isn't, then you would have to also say Ed Parker stop developing all information and didn't diseminate anything to anyone after he fired Larry.

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny,

"What a maroon!"


----------



## Carol

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok maybe I misquoted what I read but if you read into it just a little I do believe that he was giving Tatum all the info, I could be wrong, He was also training with all the time so I would assume that Tatum was going to be handed the throne but because of a dispute over business. So while Parker didn't hand him the title, he most likey is the one with the most information.


 
That could be.  GM Tatum clearly had a lot of information and was very important to Mr. Parker.   As a martial artist he is masterful.   

A student of Mr. Planas told me that Mr. Parker signed one of Mr. Planas' BB certificates (6th I think?) with a note that said something like "To the only person that can correct me"

I'm not saying that Mr. Planas knows more than Mr. Tatum or is better than Mr. Tatum or anything of the like.  But, I do think SGM Parker was also a man that would make a point of when his students were becoming quite accomplished.  

Thanks for letting me butt in :asian:


----------



## HKphooey

oy vey!

Here is a very easy way to get the point.  Go to a seminar with each one of the the "top guys" or who you think are the best.  I bet you learn something from all of them and you will be amazed by their skill.  I have walked away from many seminars with a new view of a technique or kata (I have not worked with Doc yet, but even his writings have taught me to look a some things differently.)  I do not look at it a the "correct" way, but another way.  None of us (especially posting on a forum) can take away from the skill and dedication the "top guys" have.

It is like all the great chefs, they all had to learn from a master chef.  Once they learn ways and style of their teacher, it is up to that individual to take existing recipes and modify it to their cooking style and to come up with their own recipes.  If all chefs make every meal the exact same, things would get stale and boring.  

Kenpo, the spice of life!


----------



## Kenpodoc

I don't believe that Mr. Parker had any one successor but assuming that he did perhaps we should ask which student or students did his son Edmund decided to study with? I have no doubt that Edmund knew who his father respected most.

Actually Edmund made it very clear to me that his father had no one successor and was quite proud of the quality of many of the Top instructors that he had helped train.

Jeff


----------



## Brother John

*STEELERS  !!!*

and of course...

The *NY Giants!*


....I now return you to your regularly scheduled nit-picking and bickering on _IMPORTANT_ issues that have SO much bearing on all our training.
 
(HA!)


Your Brother
John
(I likes ta stir tha pot...)


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Prada Queen said:
			
		

> Secrets of the Magician of Motion...ED PARKER.
> (First appeared in Black Belt Magazine, July 1979)​By John Corbett
> 
> In place of children lost as successors, Parker noted he has taken on
> proteges to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.
> 
> "My *key protege* is this kid *Larry Tatum*," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. *He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything*. "
> 
> The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.
> 
> He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, *Tom Kelly*, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; *Joe Palanzo*, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.
> 
> 
> If I read this correctly, he lists Tatum as his key guy.
> 
> Prada Queen


 
Notice a few "key" points things.

1) He names 3 people but one is Key meaning *important* not *ONLY*

2) he says "right now" which was in 1979, pre the "fallout" between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum.

Those points were "lost" when this article was first mentioned as the "hard evidence" to Mr. Parker's one and only successor.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok maybe I misquoted what I read but if you read into it just a little I do believe that he was giving Tatum all the info, I could be wrong, He was also training with all the time so I would assume that Tatum was going to be handed the throne but because of a dispute over business. So while Parker didn't hand him the title, he most likey is the one with the most information.


 
Flawed logic again.  

1) Mr. Parker expressely stated in that article that at that time (1979 being 11 years before his death) there were at least *THREE* people (meaining not *ONLY* Tatum) with whom he shared "the full scope of his knowledge."  In the next 11 years how many more people may have fallen into this category?

2) Scope of knowledge pertaining to 1) martial arts training methodology or 2) business practices of running martial arts schools or 3) Kenpo technical requirements or 4) music or 5) cooking or..... scope of knowledge in what area?

3) You made an "assumption" that Tatum was "most likely" to be named the successor.  Meaning you took a semi-educated guess at a probable not definite eventually.  Probability in this case is not 100% infact it cannot be defined numerically at all.

Short answer, there is no hard evidence just assumptions, guesses and opinions....same story as before for the last 16 years.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> That could be. GM Tatum clearly had a lot of information and was very important to Mr. Parker. As a martial artist he is masterful.
> 
> A student of Mr. Planas told me that Mr. Parker signed one of Mr. Planas' BB certificates (6th I think?) with a note that said something like "To the only person that can correct me"
> 
> I'm not saying that Mr. Planas knows more than Mr. Tatum or is better than Mr. Tatum or anything of the like. But, I do think SGM Parker was also a man that would make a point of when his students were becoming quite accomplished.
> 
> Thanks for letting me butt in :asian:


 
There is a huge difference between writing a note on a BB certificate and an article in Black Belt Mag.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Don't go, Bode
> 
> Key protege does not mean successor. "Key" means important. I have a key protege right now at my enginerdy job. This person will not be my successor but this person will be very important to team.


 
Unfortunately this person didnt put the entire article in.  Parker is describing how may of the people he has trained had left and there is no one to pass all the info on to but there is this Kid.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Unfortunately this person didnt put the entire article in. Parker is describing how may of the people he has trained had left and there is no one to pass all the info on to but there is this Kid.


 
Written like one truly blinded by the dogmatism of pure faith. And Jesus named Peter the rock of his church, causing the Catholics to hold firm to their belief that the church in Rome, alone, hath truth.

*Addressed to the Forum, and not Kenpo Ronin: (but you're welcome to read it)*



*Kenpo and Messianic Sectarianism*


The history of major religious factions, and their development after their founders have moved on, has always been interesting to me. Buddha, Jesus, Muhammedeach made a dent in the societies in which they operated. After they moved on, their followers demonstrated great factionist tendencies, each claiming to be the crucible of the Masters truth.

I read _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_ while in Bruxelles in 86 (long before the Davinci Code craze), then out of extreme boredom, combined with the unique ability to travel via Eurail to some of the places mentioned in these histories, started reading whatever I could find on the history of the Catholic church in Europe, its consolidation of power in the previous millennia, and the influence it had on world affairsfrom ruling royal families, to major power plays, and so on (Aachen  is stunning at the first fall of snowand the 2nd Papacy therethrone = pretty chair in pretty church/castledefinitely get the spiced sugar cookies at the Christmas market). Also, in this protracted fit of boredom, spiced up by travel to historical places, read a bit about the early church and its martyrs. Odd thing: Im not even catholic, but found the entire thing fascinating (the side hallways, closed to the public, in the museum of the Vatican have more priceless sculpture stuffed in them for storage than do probably all of the U.S. metropolitan museums put together). 

James, the brother of Jesus, is attributed to starting the church in Jerusalem. Other apostles split to other locations to start other churches. Over time, the Catholic Church absorbed many of them. Independent bishoprics, each supposedly started by an apostle, or an apostles disciple, or some such lineage claim.

Some did not join, and also claim apostolic heritage: Direct line, through founders, to the Master. Greek orthodox, Ethiopian, some strains in India that claim lineage through the missions of Thomas (all of this, up to debate by historians). Some have kept their traditions in tact; others have survived by syncretically absorbing cultural traditions from the lands in which they survive. It seems that the church in Jerusalem resisted all attempts at absorption by the Vatican, and (they claim) practice much the way they did +/- 2000 years ago. 

What does this have to do with kenpo? Wellthink about it. There is a Tatum bishopric, with members gunning hard to have it upheld as the standard orthodoxy into which all others incorporate, or fade. The un-incorporated bishops are, basically, the seniors. Chapel bishopric; Planas bishopric; etc. Each lineage of students will be able to claim apostolic heritage to the Master (in this case, Mr. Parker); each will have scholars who rub their chins, amused by the historical differences; and each will have zealots, fiercely defending the truth of their church as being more true than the truths of the others.

Instead of multiple churchs, well have multiple associationssome official, some not. Each will perform their mass & sacrament  or techniques, forms & sets  a little bit differently than the others, convinced that their way is the most holy way. And, as with religions, there will be small, heretical bands of mystics that ascribe to none of them, yet all of them, seeking the truth not from a guru, text or DVD series, but from their own explorations into the capabilities of Self to expand around the context of a given model.

Threads like these, and their tendency to recur in some format or another, tell me we have already begun.

Retreating to my mystics cave till I can get back to the Bishoprics I prefer to adhere to,

Dave


----------



## Carol

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> There is a huge difference between writing a note on a BB certificate and an article in Black Belt Mag.


 
I confuse mine all the time :rofl:

Would love to see Mr. Tatum open a school in Massachusetts.   It would be nice to see a teacher with some strong lineage in these parts to give some more competition to the the friendly neighborhood grandmasters that have popped up all over the place :asian:


----------



## IWishToLearn

Interesting analogy. Actually that could be quite fitting.


----------



## Flying Crane

Good post, Dave.  Very well said.


----------



## KenpoRonin

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Unfortunately this person didnt put the entire article in. Parker is describing how may of the people he has trained had left and there is no one to pass all the info on to but there is this Kid.


 
He ya go read it and weep

He has worried over former students would leave and open up Kenpo studios of their own. I always had the fear guys taking off being disloyal and opening up on their own, so I left out a lot of stuff.  Parker said he found some students resenting that he had hidden knowledge from him.  Quote they were somewhat hurt in a way he admitted but they would still feel happy.  They are (the now complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle.  I am teaching those who stuck by me.  The fact is I was going to reserve the knowledge for my children and my son.  He is not interested in the martial arts he studies but his heart is in the fine arts.  In place of children walk the successors he has taken on protégés to insure the continuality of the Kenpo system.  

_My *key protege* is this kid *Larry Tatum*," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. *He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything*. " 

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon. 

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, *Tom Kelly*, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; *Joe Palanzo*, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore._


Now lets look at the facts these other two proteges didn't get to spend as much mat time as Tatum one lived Salt Lake and the other in Baltimore.

So who had more mat time? Who is listed as the KEY GUY

Websters - Key; of chief or critical importance; pivotal.

Sure they had a falling out, but Tatum was the Key guy for how long.  No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it?  We are talking what 4 years Tatum had twice that long to get all of it. 

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


----------



## Kenpodoc

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> There is a huge difference between writing a note on a BB certificate and an article in Black Belt Mag.


True. Personally I would have preferred a note on my Black Belt Certificate.

Jeff


----------



## JamesB

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> There is a huge difference between writing a note on a BB certificate and an article in Black Belt Mag.


 


			
				Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> True. Personally I would have preferred a note on my Black Belt Certificate.


 
was going to say exactly the same. On the one hand, a personally written note from master to student, something to treasure - and on the other, an article engineered soley to sell the business side of kenpo-karate to the general-public, specifically mentioning the individuals that were important in the commerical side of the art.

KenpoRonin, you really need to stop with this nonsense.


----------



## Flying Crane

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


 
Just for the sake of discussion, let's suspend our disbelief for a moment.

Just suppose some indesputable, concrete proof were to surface at this late stage in the game.  Something like a document written by Mr. Parker a few days before his death, that undisputably names Mr. Tatum as his successor.  This document states clearly that Mr. Tatum knows and understands every aspect of Mr. Parker's arts in a perfect way, and that nothing is lacking whatsoever.  It also explicitly states that no other student of Mr. Parker is able to stand at the same level as Mr. Tatum.  It also states that upon Mr. Parker's death, Mr. Tatum shall be recognized as the new leader and grandmaster of all aspects of Mr. Parker's kenpo.  It instructs all of Mr. Parker's other students to acknowledge Mr. Tatum as their superior, and they are to follow any and all orders issued by Mr. Tatum, concerning the proper way to practice and teach kenpo.  And lets further suppose that this document is somehow able to be authenticated and verified without a doubt that it is not a forgery, and was not written under duress or threat of harm to anybody.

OK.  What of it?  What does this prove, at this point?  Why would it matter?  What is it that you are attempting to accomplish, by pushing this notion?  Especially coming at this late stage when many of Mr. Parker's students are solidly pursuing their own methods of training, advancing Kenpo in the ways that they see fit, I find it doubtful that anyone would suddenly comply with this decree and come back and bow down before Mr. Tatum.  

So, I ask, What's your point?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> He ya go read it and weep
> 
> Now lets look at the facts these other two proteges didn't get to spend as much mat time as Tatum one lived Salt Lake and the other in Baltimore.
> 
> So who had more mat time? Who is listed as the KEY GUY
> 
> Websters - Key; of chief or critical importance; pivotal.
> 
> Sure they had a falling out, but Tatum was the Key guy for how long. No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it? We are talking what 4 years Tatum had twice that long to get all of it.
> 
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


 
Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught *you *to show?

You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.

The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.

Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from *1st* generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.

My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.

Dave


----------



## KenpoRonin

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Just for the sake of discussion, let's suspend our disbelief for a moment.
> 
> Just suppose some indesputable, concrete proof were to surface at this late stage in the game. Something like a document written by Mr. Parker a few days before his death, that undisputably names Mr. Tatum as his successor. This document states clearly that Mr. Tatum knows and understands every aspect of Mr. Parker's arts in a perfect way, and that nothing is lacking whatsoever. It also explicitly states that no other student of Mr. Parker is able to stand at the same level as Mr. Tatum. It also states that upon Mr. Parker's death, Mr. Tatum shall be recognized as the new leader and grandmaster of all aspects of Mr. Parker's kenpo. It instructs all of Mr. Parker's other students to acknowledge Mr. Tatum as their superior, and they are to follow any and all orders issued by Mr. Tatum, concerning the proper way to practice and teach kenpo. And lets further suppose that this document is somehow able to be authenticated and verified without a doubt that it is not a forgery, and was not written under duress or threat of harm to anybody.
> 
> OK. What of it? What does this prove, at this point? Why would it matter? What is it that you are attempting to accomplish, by pushing this notion? Especially coming at this late stage when many of Mr. Parker's students are solidly pursuing their own methods of training, advancing Kenpo in the ways that they see fit, I find it doubtful that anyone would suddenly comply with this decree and come back and bow down before Mr. Tatum.
> 
> So, I ask, What's your point?


 
What is this board about Who is teaching the correct system?  I am just answering that question.  Don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.


----------



## Kenpodoc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught *you *to show?
> 
> You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.
> 
> The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.
> 
> Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from *1st* generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.
> 
> My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.
> 
> Dave


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught *you *to show?
> 
> You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.
> 
> The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.
> 
> Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from *1st* generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.
> 
> My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.
> 
> Dave


 
You assume to much, first I am not a student of Tatum. You have no I idea what my knowledge base and who I have talked to and where I got my info. Second Why on GOD's Green Earth would I show respect to people who call me names.  I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.  I have just made a case that There is one who has more of the system than the rest, one who is teaching most of "the correct system" over all the other instructors.

Thirdly your problem is that you have been living in such an illusion for so long that you refuse to look at truth when it smacks you in the face.  I bet if Parker came down and smacked you in the face you still would refuse to believe.

And what simple reasoning am I unable to grasp.  Since Parker died many seniors have taken Kenpo into their own direction.  I get that.  I have left instructors for that same reason. As Doc agreed and Parker said in the article many of these Seniors never got all the information and when youdon't have it all you have to try and figure it out for yourself.  Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  There were only three mentioned to have all of it.  You were not one of them, sir.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught *you *to show?
> 
> You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.
> 
> The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.
> 
> Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from *1st* generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.
> 
> My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.
> 
> Dave


You assume to much, first I am not a student of Tatum. You have no I idea what my knowledge base and who I have talked to who have trained with and where I got my info. Second Why on GOD's Green Earth would I show respect to people who call me names.  I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.  I have just made a case that there is one who has more of the system than the rest, one who is teaching most of "the correct system" over all the other instructors.

Thirdly your problem is that you have been living in such an illusion for so long that you refuse to look at truth when it smacks you in the face.  I bet if Parker came down and told you to your face you still would refuse to believe.

And what simple reasoning am I unable to grasp.  Since Parker died many seniors have taken Kenpo into their own direction.  I get that.  I have left instructors for that same reason. As Doc agreed and Parker said in the article many of these Seniors never got all the information and when one doesn't have it all one would have to try and figure it out for oneself.  Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  There were only three mentioned to been getting all of it.  You were not one of them, sir.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> He ya go read it and weep
> 
> &#8230;He has worried over former students would leave and open up Kenpo studios of their own. I always had the fear guys taking off being disloyal and opening up on their own, so I left out a lot of stuff. Parker said he found some students resenting&#8230; that he had hidden knowledge from him. Quote they were somewhat hurt in a way he admitted but they would still feel happy. They are (the now complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is I was going to reserve the knowledge for my children and my son. He is not interested in the martial arts he studies but his heart is in the fine arts. In place of children walk the successors he has taken on prot&#233;g&#233;s to insure the continuality of the Kenpo system.
> 
> _My *key protege* is this kid *Larry Tatum*," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. *He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything*. " _
> 
> _The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon. _
> 
> _He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, *Tom Kelly*, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; *Joe Palanzo*, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore._
> 
> 
> Now lets look at the facts these other two proteges didn't get to spend as much mat time as Tatum one lived Salt Lake and the other in Baltimore.
> 
> So who had more mat time? Who is listed as the KEY GUY
> 
> Websters - Key; of chief or critical importance; pivotal.
> 
> Sure they had a falling out, but Tatum was the Key guy for how long. No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it? We are talking what 4 years Tatum had twice that long to get all of it.
> 
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


 
1) So you post the same exact article plus another portion of it that doesn't support your argument at all as it mentions three proteges while you're trying to prove that one is the man.

2) Then you add more assumptions about who was where how long because self admitedly you weren't there. And you use mat time as a qualifier. OK, 'Doc' Chapel had more mat time before Mr. Tatum showed up, was still with Mr. Parker while Mr. Tatum was there, and was still with Mr. Parker after Mr. Tatum left. So I guess Doc is "the man" since we're now using *assumed* mat time as an indicator.

3) Then you define "key" as critically important and pivotal but it does not mean *only or sole. *Therefore it's a self-defeating statement.

4) And you post an article that was seen by most memebers of this board prior to today as though it was new and revelating "hard" evidence. :rofl:

Oh, it's hard evidence alright. Evidence that even when Mr. Tatum was "the key man" Parker still had at least two other men he would put in his place should Tatum "not work out". And if history serves Mr. Tatum didn't workout.  I guess the WKKA headquartered here in Baltimore is the best after all.  It has TWO of the THREE protoges running it and two is more than one right?

yet another :bs: argument that is :deadhorse:


----------



## Flying Crane

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> What is this board about Who is teaching the correct system? I am just answering that question. Don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.


 
I didn't ask the original question, but it's been an interesting discussion.  I assume you are pushing Mr. Tatum as the rightful heir because you belong to his group?  I assume this is what you were taught in your training?  If I'm wrong about these assumptions, feel free to let me know.

I don't push anybody's agenda, I'm not even from EPAK; I'm from the Tracy's lineage.  But I honestly think the question is moot.  There is no "true successor", everyone of those who learned from Mr. Parker teach and train to the best of their abilities.  Probably some are better than others, but it cannot be quantifiably measured and determined.  As Doc stated in an earlier post, the answer to the question is, Your teacher is teaching the right way, until You find someone who can teach you better.  That is the fairest, and most reasonable answer I have seen so far.

Mr. Parker is no longer in the picture.  It is right that his students move forward and do things as they see fit.  I personally don't see the relevance in arguing over who does it how Mr. Parker wanted it done.  Mr. Parker isn't here to give those instructions, and he probably would have made more changes in the meantime, had he not passed away when he did.  So what is held up as "how Mr. Parker wanted it" today, probably isn't even accurate compared to what it might have become, had Mr. Parker not passed away.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> True. Personally I would have preferred a note on my Black Belt Certificate.
> 
> Jeff


 
Amen


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Mr. Parker is no longer in the picture. It is right that his students move forward and do things as they see fit. I personally don't see the relevance in arguing over who does it how Mr. Parker wanted it done. Mr. Parker isn't here to give those instructions, and he probably would have made more changes in the meantime, had he not passed away when he did. So what is held up as "how Mr. Parker wanted it" today, probably isn't even accurate compared to what it might have become, had Mr. Parker not passed away.


 
Couldn't have said that any better.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> You assume to much, first I am not a student of Tatum.


 
"Brian has been involved in the martial arts for over ten years. A 1st degree Black Belt under Larry Tatum who teaches Ed Parker&#8217;s American Kenpo Karate, Brian has also trained in traditional American Kenpo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He has competed in several karate tournaments, including first place wins in Stan Witz&#8217;s World Championships held here in Las Vegas, NV. Brian has also trained several regional and national champions in various divisions over the past four years.

Brian is a UNLV graduate and is also actively involved in scuba diving, rock climbing, skiing and his church.

If you&#8217;re looking for self-defense training, that will prepare you for real life experiences, If your looking for a good workout or if you are just looking for a hobby and just having some fun, this could be the place for you."

http://www.boeboxing.com/about.htm

Your public profile says you're Brian Hoff a 1st degree from Las Vegas.  Is the above article not about you? strange coincidence.  And you're trolling.  You have about 17+ posts on martial talk and they are all on this thread while you lie about who you are and who you train under.  Oh wait you were honest you train under Clyde but not Mr. Tatum.  How foolish of me.  How very honorable of you, you've been taught very well.

"_It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student *respectful of all*" -- Ed Parker_

"Check out Bo Boxing on Trop, one of my students, Brian Hoff, teaches PT there but I'm not sure what days...." -- Clyde O'Briant aka Dark Kenpo Lord


----------



## KenpoRonin

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I didn't ask the original question, but it's been an interesting discussion. I assume you are pushing Mr. Tatum as the rightful heir because you belong to his group? I assume this is what you were taught in your training? If I'm wrong about these assumptions, feel free to let me know.
> 
> I don't push anybody's agenda, I'm not even from EPAK; I'm from the Tracy's lineage. But I honestly think the question is moot. There is no "true successor", everyone of those who learned from Mr. Parker teach and train to the best of their abilities. Probably some are better than others, but it cannot be quantifiably measured and determined. As Doc stated in an earlier post, the answer to the question is, Your teacher is teaching the right way, until You find someone who can teach you better. That is the fairest, and most reasonable answer I have seen so far.
> 
> Mr. Parker is no longer in the picture. It is right that his students move forward and do things as they see fit. I personally don't see the relevance in arguing over who does it how Mr. Parker wanted it done. Mr. Parker isn't here to give those instructions, and he probably would have made more changes in the meantime, had he not passed away when he did. So what is held up as "how Mr. Parker wanted it" today, probably isn't even accurate compared to what it might have become, had Mr. Parker not passed away.


 
I know you didn't ask the question, I think you may be the only man here without an agenda.  I agree there is no clear successor, otherwise would be discussing something else.  

As for pushing my instructor, I am not one of Tatum's students.  I will say that I left one instructor and went under one of Tatum's students.  Because I as Doc said to do found one better.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> "Brian has been involved in the martial arts for over ten years. A 1st degree Black Belt under Larry Tatum who teaches Ed Parker&#8217;s American Kenpo Karate, Brian has also trained in traditional American Kenpo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He has competed in several karate tournaments, including first place wins in Stan Witz&#8217;s World Championships held here in Las Vegas, NV. Brian has also trained several regional and national champions in various divisions over the past four years.
> 
> Brian is a UNLV graduate and is also actively involved in scuba diving, rock climbing, skiing and his church.
> 
> If you&#8217;re looking for self-defense training, that will prepare you for real life experiences, If your looking for a good workout or if you are just looking for a hobby and just having some fun, this could be the place for you."
> 
> http://www.boeboxing.com/about.htm
> 
> Your public profile says you're Brian Hoff a 1st degree from Las Vegas. Is the above article not about you? strange coincidence. And you're trolling. You have about 17+ posts on martial talk and they are all on this thread while you lie about who you are and who you train under. How very honerable of you, you've been taught very well.
> 
> "_It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student *respectful of all*" -- Ed Parker_


 
That is all True, but it is just a profile.  I was adopted in under Tatum&#8217;s Organization two years ago.  I train under Clyde.  That being said, I left the instructor I had, already being a black, because we had a disagreement on a great many things one of them being the direction in which he was taking the way he taught Kenpo.  I could have chosen anyone to study with, I looked at many instructors.  I came to the conclusion that the one who had the most to offer were those under Tatum's organization.  I had also built up a report with Clyde and got a long with him well.  So yes I am touting Tatum's organization but that is because I did the research and thought that he was the best.  I was just showing the info I came across to come to my conclusion.
As for being dishonest, I knew you and the rest of you would see that I trained under Clyde and not listen to a word I said.  So I decided to choose my words wisely.  Fact is I chose to go where I went, because I knew what I knew. For the record I have never trained under Tatum and only shared the mats with him in Seminars.


----------



## green meanie

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught *you *to show?
> 
> You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.
> 
> The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.
> 
> Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from *1st* generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.
> 
> My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.
> 
> Dave


Well said. :asian:


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> ...I looked at many instructors. I came to the conclusion that the one who had the most to offer were those under Tatum's organization. I had also built up a report with Clyde and got a long with him well. *So yes I am touting Tatum's organization* but that is because I did the research and *thought* that he was the best. I was just showing the info I came across to come to my conclusion.


 
Well I can agree with much of your last post, just not the other stuff you've surmised.  Glad you can state that it's what _YOU_ *THINK* not the gospel truth.

_Surmised: To conclude something from the information available, especially when the information is incomplete or insubstantial._


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Well I can agree with much of your last post, just not the other stuff you've surmised. Glad you can state that it's what _YOU_ *THINK* not the gospel truth.
> 
> _Surmised: To conclude something from the information available, especially when the information is incomplete or insubstantial._


 
Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you.  He knows the history and this is what he had to say.  Ok this time I will be respectful and just say please read it with an open mind!
* 
http://www.tracyskarate.com/AmKenpo/Tatum.htm

TRACYS GUIDE TO AMERICAN KENPO 
VIDEOS 

Buyers beware! With the death of Ed Parker dozens of "American" kenpo stylist have rushed (stumbled - fallen flat on their faces) forward to take his place. They were all sure they where just what the Kenpo world was waiting for:  the new "Messiah".

Ed Parker had not chosen any of them because he did not think any of them were qualified to lead American Kenpo - let alone Ed Parker's Kenpo. Over one dozen Kenpo stylist of varying knowledge and ability tried to rush (American Kenpo) videos to market. Hoping to fill in the vacuum left by Ed Parker. Even one of my former 4th dans formed a Kenpo organization! He put out videos and manuals to show you his way of Kenpo. He is now bankrupt and had to close his studio as well. 



Most of them claimed: they were not doing it for themselves , they were there to "Unite Kenpo"! Naturally, with them as the "new head"  of American Kenpo (and the high rank that comes with it). They came out with their new manuals and new requirements. They were no longer Ed Parkers American Kenpo - they had something better: the "new improved" Kenpo!

With so many videos out there, which one do you buy!

When it comes to your choose of the "best" and most "authentic" video tapes on American Kenpo - self defense techniques and Katas you have a choice of one! 


As further endorsement - the greatest recognition comes from your seniors. Larry Tatum at the "Gathering of Eagles" Larry Tatum was seated at the head table - where he took his place - with the other  "Senior Masters" of the Yudanshakai" Above picture - Rt. to Lt. - Sijo Adriano Emperado, Master Tino Tuiolosega, Professor Sonny Gascon, Master Larry Tatum. There were a total of 16: Senior Masters" sitting at the "table of honor". More than 60 "Masters', and "Senior Masters" were in attendance! The "Gathering of Eagles" drew over 1000 Kenpo and Kenpo based system practitioners from all over the world! 

How do you know when you are a "Master"?
When the other "Masters" set a place for you at their table"

As the above photo shows - the other "Masters" did indeed set a place for "Master" Tatum at their table!
Larry Tatum was the obvious choice to be the first to represent American Kenpo! Other American Kenpo representatives were awarded "Masters" plaques by the Yudanshakai. In time they too will take their place with the other seniors. None of the "Self Proclaimed" Kenpo master were given any consider by their peers. When you have no credibility with the "Masters" of the other Kenpo and Kenpo based systems where does that leave you? 

As further endorsement - everyone there got to spend three days with Larry Tatum and attend his seminars. Everyone agreed - this is the man to "speak" for American kenpo. As several of the "old times" commented: He moves just like Ed did! As we all found Larry and his family were a delight to be around. So much for all the "bad" press all the rivals in Kenpo have been giving Larry for over ten years. At the "Gathering of Eagles" Larry Tatum was doing every thing - helping where needed - giving seminars - signing autographs and answering questions!

Fortunately "Master Larry Tatum's" video tapes are the best on the market. 

1. Larry Tatum stated studying directly with Ed Parker back in 1966. He was there and helped Ed Parker developed "American Kenpo". Ed Parker worked and taught Larry Tatum the new material exactly as he wanted it taught. Once Larry was trained, Ed Parker let Larry do most of the training of the other top students including "Jeff   Speakman". Also, Ed Parker had already chosen and designated Larry Tatum to be his successor.  Larry would travel with Ed around the world and United States giving seminars. In addition to this Larry Tatum ran Ed Parker's main studio in Santa Monica for years where he accumulated "thousands" of hours of teaching time! 


Which meant Larry Tatum had "done" the Katas and self defense techniques hundreds of time as he taught them on a daily basis!

2. Larry Tatum was very close to the "prime" of his life physically - when the filmed the videos. 



3. The production quality of the videos is totally professional! At one time they were Panthers #1 sell tapes! 



4. Larry produced his videos shortly after he left Ed Parker to go on his own and open his own studio. Which means all the American Kenpo material that was taught to Larry by Ed Parker was frozen in time! None of the changes made by other instructors after Ed Parker's death would be there! This is about as "pure" as you are going to get. 

There will always be a lot of static from the other American Kenpo "wannabe's" who now all claim Ed taught them privately and gave them the real secrets". Then they claim that Ed Parker wanted such and such changed, such as cutting the number of self-defense technique from 24 to 16 (or less) per belt. Wrong! If Ed wanted something changed he would have done it himself. 


If you have any doubts check with Mrs. Parker - she will inform you Ed did not teach anyone the "secrets"! 

TO BE CONTINUED

This is where all the "POLITICS" come in! I am not suppose to tell you these things!
It makes Kenpo look bad they claim! Kenpo look bad? Or those claiming to be teaching American Kenpo when they are not!

I have no "quarrel" with those teaching what Ed had taught and calling it American Kenpo.

My problem come with those who are not teaching Kenpo/American Kenpo - but trying to get a free ride by using a name that everyone is familiar with!

EXAMPLE: When you go to a restaurant and order a "Hamburger" you expect to get a "Hamburger"  - not a "hot dog" !! But they explain they are both made from he same type of meat and both are covered with bread! So what's the difference? Hamburger, Hot Dog, all the same!

Why don't they do us a favor - if its not American Kenpo why don't they just give it a different name?
*


----------



## Flying Crane

I have certainly been aware of this piece on Tracys website.  Honestly, I don't know what to make of it.  Tracys have posted pretty extensively about how they don't feel the changes Mr. Parker was making to the system were worthwhile.  This is, of course, why they ultimately split from him and continue to teach the older method, as it apparently was taught in the 1950s and early 1960s.  

So what doesn't make sense to me is why they would promote a teacher of the newer method in this way.  If they were so opposed to the newer method, why would they give one of its proponents this kind of a plug?

I have never been connected to the Tracys, have never belonged to their organization, and have never met them.  There is a lot about them, and about their relationship with Mr. Parker, that I am sure I will never know.  So really, I don't know what to make of this piece.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> one who is teaching most of "the correct system" over *all the other* instructors.


 
And you have trained with all the other instructors?



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Thirdly your problem is that you have been living in such an illusion for so long that you refuse to look at truth when it smacks you in the face. I bet if Parker came down and smacked you in the face you still would refuse to believe.


 
I have? What know you of my illusions? What is the truth of which you speak? (I'll warrant there is more you don't know about kenpo history, than there is you do). And, for the record, I've been smacked by Parker. En dolor, veritas.



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> And what simple reasoning am I unable to grasp.


 
Mr. Hawkins has made a couple of posts challenging the embedded rationale in your reasoning. Had you read them, and pondered them with an eye towards the logic and critical thinking you purportedly hold yourself to, you might have seen the errata in the conclusion...faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. Premises inherently contain presuppositions. These have been erroneously attributed on your part.



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Since Parker died many seniors have taken Kenpo into their own direction. I get that. I have left instructors for that same reason. As Doc agreed and Parker said in the article many of these Seniors never got all the information and when you don't have it all you have to try and figure it out for yourself. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. There were only three mentioned to have all of it. You were not one of them, sir.


 
I have not, ever, claimed to have the whole system. In fact, for the record for any and all to hold me to and spank me for at future dates should they choose to do so, I do not buy into the value of the whole system. If I had unlimited funds and time to train with whomever I could as often as I liked, I would be fast on the heels and always in the studios of Ron Chapel, Bob White, Denis Conatser, Rich Hale & Sigung Labounty for kenpo. This has more to do with the character of the men teaching, and my knoweldge of their content, then with "who's teaching the correct system?". In that list are some progressives, some old-timers who stick to an older cirriculum but train harder in other areas, and 2 "purists". In my pea-little brain, it is better to be really friggin' awesome at half the system, then marginal at all of it. The vast majority of kenpoists I've encountered fall into the "marginal" category. Intermittently, I am pleasantly surprised, and reconsider my position at least temporarily. Until I meet ranked black belts in the "whole" system who have shaky stances, weak basics, can't punch hard enough to break toilet paper, and I compare them to my barbarian "1/2 system plus BJJ & Kick-boxing" blacks who can dismantle a guys jaw and cheekbone with a single shot. Give me the iron-workers over the watchmakers any day.

Read some of the entries in "the Journey", and you'll see that I am not alone in this opinion. Men in kenpo who, in my OPINION (note: not stated as fact) would be better to have at my back than some of the more famous purists, ascribe to a "less is more" model of kenpo...focus on going back to clean up what you already know, making it more solid, stable, and effective, rather than adding more cards onto an already unstable foundation.  It's a long-standing debate that will live on after we are all gone. But that's the side I've planted my tent on.

Many of the Seniors did not get the whole picture. Many of them didn't want it, viewing it as superfluous waste, filler, and fluff. Some just viewed it as unecessary...they'd been kicking butts for years before the cirriculum was updated, and not having Finger Set XXXXVVVIIII, and knowing how it relates to the 10th green belt extension, will never prevent them from being viable, strong combatants. Do me a favor: Tell Mr. LaBounty he don't know crap, cuz he don't do the final picture the way Tatum does. He is too good a man to feed you your own teeth, but if he weren't, you might get the chance to see what I'm talking about.

Dave


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> "? . You have about 17+ posts on martial talk and they are all on this thread while you lie about who you are and who you train under. Oh wait you were honest you train under Clyde but not Mr. Tatum. How foolish of me. How very honorable of you, you've been taught very well.
> 
> "_It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student *respectful of all*" -- Ed Parker_
> 
> "Check out Bo Boxing on Trop, one of my students, Brian Hoff, teaches PT there but I'm not sure what days...." -- Clyde O'Briant aka Dark Kenpo Lord


 
Nice spin call me a liar then change it.  One of the biggest problem with people in Martial Arts is they claim to be something they are not.  I don't train at Tatum's school, nor have I ever.  So I will not claim to train with him.  He did Give me black belt Cert which I charish very much for if he endorses my black belt I know I am legit.  there is nothing worse than people claiming they trained under someone when they only shared the mat with them a few times. ok maybe child molesters are.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say. Ok this time I will be respectful and just say please read it with an open mind!


 
Quoting Tracy as a sound historical source? Dude. You're not helping your case.

First, the histories coming out of Tracyville are considered a little...um...different.

2nd, if you track enough of their propaganda, Larry can't possibly be the King, because the tracy's are.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> 2nd, if you track enough of their propaganda, Larry can't possibly be the King, because the tracy's are.


 
Now that you mention it Dave, we do have about three or four times as many self defense techniques (depending on how you count them) as the later editions have.  Sounds like you are right, we got it all, we rule!!


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> And you have trained with all the other instructors?
> 
> 
> 
> I have? What know you of my illusions? What is the truth of which you speak? (I'll warrant there is more you don't know about kenpo history, than there is you do). And, for the record, I've been smacked by Parker. En dolor, veritas.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Hawkins has made a couple of posts challenging the embedded rationale in your reasoning. Had you read them, and pondered them with an eye towards the logic and critical thinking you purportedly hold yourself to, you might have seen the errata in the conclusion...faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. Premises inherently contain presuppositions. These have been erroneously attributed on your part.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not, ever, claimed to have the whole system. In fact, for the record for any and all to hold me to and spank me for at future dates should they choose to do so, I do not buy into the value of the whole system. If I had unlimited funds and time to train with whomever I could as often as I liked, I would be fast on the heels and always in the studios of Ron Chapel, Bob White, Denis Conatser, Rich Hale & Sigung Labounty for kenpo. This has more to do with the character of the men teaching, and my knoweldge of their content, then with "who's teaching the correct system?". In that list are some progressives, some old-timers who stick to an older cirriculum but train harder in other areas, and 2 "purists". In my pea-little brain, it is better to be really friggin' awesome at half the system, then marginal at all of it. The vast majority of kenpoists I've encountered fall into the "marginal" category. Intermittently, I am pleasantly surprised, and reconsider my position at least temporarily. Until I meet ranked black belts in the "whole" system who have shaky stances, weak basics, can't punch hard enough to break toilet paper, and I compare them to my barbarian "1/2 system plus BJJ & Kick-boxing" blacks who can dismantle a guys jaw and cheekbone with a single shot. Give me the iron-workers over the watchmakers any day.
> 
> Read some of the entries in "the Journey", and you'll see that I am not alone in this opinion. Men in kenpo who, in my OPINION (note: not stated as fact) would be better to have at my back than some of the more famous purists, ascribe to a "less is more" model of kenpo...focus on going back to clean up what you already know, making it more solid, stable, and effective, rather than adding more cards onto an already unstable foundation. It's a long-standing debate that will live on after we are all gone. But that's the side I've planted my tent on.
> 
> Many of the Seniors did not get the whole picture. Many of them didn't want it, viewing it as superfluous waste, filler, and fluff. Some just viewed it as unecessary...they'd been kicking butts for years before the cirriculum was updated, and not having Finger Set XXXXVVVIIII, and knowing how it relates to the 10th green belt extension, will never prevent them from being viable, strong combatants. Do me a favor: Tell Mr. LaBounty he don't know crap, cuz he don't do the final picture the way Tatum does. He is too good a man to feed you your own teeth, but if he weren't, you might get the chance to see what I'm talking about.
> 
> Dave


 
There is nothing wrong with my logic, just my presentation of it.  My hands cant keep up with my mind. My BAD.  

As for you attacking my logic by using many fallacious arguments (you being all those whom have taken odds against me, I am out numbered here) mainly ad hominem attacks.

I have trained with Iron workers and I have trained with Clock makers.  I studied under one of La Bounties guys and think very highly of the man and his character.  I enjoy the mat time I shared with him.  That is both my former instructor and La Bounty.  

I now study under someone who is both.  He makes steel clocks.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Now that you mention it Dave, we do have about three or four times as many self defense techniques (depending on how you count them) as the later editions have. Sounds like you are right, we got it all, we rule!!


 
One of me old sensei was a Tracy offshoot guy, blending heavily with Japanese kempo & other stuff. We had techniques out the wazoo. He was decent enough to tell us that they were for illustrating possibilities, driven by concepts, and designed to teach us/our bodies to react appropriately to various types of inbound attacks. Oddly, I also read something very much like that in Infinite Insights 5 last night. Hmmm.

But only Larry does it right. Just ask KenpoRonin.

Dave


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> There is nothing wrong with my logic, just my presentation of it. My hands cant keep up with my mind. My BAD.
> 
> As for you attacking my logic by using many fallacious arguments (you being all those whom have taken odds against me, I am out numbered here) mainly ad hominem attacks.
> 
> I have trained with Iron workers and I have trained with Clock makers. I studied under one of La Bounties guys and think very highly of the man and his character. I enjoy the mat time I shared with him. That is both my former instructor and La Bounty.
> 
> I now study under someone who is both. *He makes steel clocks*.


 
Cute.  And for the record, not all of those attacks were ad-hominem. Calling somneone an idiot is not an ad-hominem _argument_. An ad-hominem argument is to say they were incorrect, because of their idiotness; this differs from arguing with the points in their argument. Beyond that, it's just stone throwing.

kenpojujutsu3 made some perfectly valid points. Even if the tone is unsolicitous, that does not make the argument ad-hominem. "That guy is wrong, because he is [inset derogatrory epithet here]" is ad-hominem.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Flying Crane

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> One of me old sensei was a Tracy offshoot guy, blending heavily with Japanese kempo & other stuff. We had techniques out the wazoo. He was decent enough to tell us that they were for illustrating possibilities, driven by concepts, and designed to teach us/our bodies to react appropriately to various types of inbound attacks.


 
Well, I've made it painfully clear how I feel about the vast number of techniques...


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> One of me old sensei was a Tracy offshoot guy, blending heavily with Japanese kempo & other stuff. We had techniques out the wazoo. He was decent enough to tell us that they were for illustrating possibilities, driven by concepts, and designed to teach us/our bodies to react appropriately to various types of inbound attacks. Oddly, I also read something very much like that in Infinite Insights 5 last night. Hmmm.
> 
> But only Larry does it right. Just ask KenpoRonin.
> 
> Dave


 
That would be putting words in my mouth.  I have never said that no one else didn't have the system.  I never said that Tatum had all the system.  I never said there was no information out there that others had that Tatum didn't.  I just implied that there would be one (not mentioning names) who had more of the information than any one other person.  I then said I believed that person to be Tatum.  The Hypocrisy of you critizing my logic knows no bounds.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Cute. And for the record, not all of those attacks were ad-hominem. Calling somneone an idiot is not an ad-hominem _argument_. An ad-hominem argument is to say they were incorrect, because of their idiotness; this differs from arguing with the points in their argument. Beyond that, it's just stone throwing.
> 
> kenpojujutsu3 made some perfectly valid points. Even if the tone is unsolicitous, that does not make the argument ad-hominem. "That guy is wrong, because he is [inset derogatrory epithet here]" is ad-hominem.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave


 
Ad Hominem (Also called argument against the person)  An argument that conclude that a claim is false because it was mad by a particular person is fallacious unless there are good reasons to believe that most of what the person says about the subject matter of the conclusion is false.  Sometimes the Character of the person is attacked (Abusive ad hominem), sometime the persons circumstances are attacked (circumstantial ad hominem) and sometime the person is attacked for somehow being associated with the position criticized in the argument (tu quoque).

Introduction to Logic and critical thinking Second edition Merrilee H Salmon 

I know what it is, don't think that because you claim to be a Dr. that makes more knowledgeable than others.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Nice spin call me a liar then change it. One of the biggest problem with people in Martial Arts is they claim to be something they are not. I don't train at Tatum's school, nor have I ever. So I will not claim to train with him. He did Give me black belt Cert which I charish very much for if he endorses my black belt I know I am legit. there is nothing worse than people claiming they trained under someone when they only shared the mat with them a few times. ok maybe child molesters are.


 
I didn't try to change anything, it's called sarcasm to someone who missed the goal of kenpo as stated by Ed Parker himself.  Respect.  If you want to hold this torch about what Mr. Parker thought, hold all of it.  including the respect part.  Don't pick and choose it further weakens an already legless argument.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> That would be putting words in my mouth. I have never said that no one else didn't have the system. I never said that Tatum had all the system. I never said there was no information out there that others had that Tatum didn't. I just implied that there would be one (not mentioning names) who had more of the information than any one other person. I then said I believed that person to be Tatum. The Hypocrisy of you critizing my logic knows no bounds.


 
Hypocrisy? Look it up. 

As far as me being a horses backside, absolutely...guilty as charged. Whether you intended it that way or not, the manner in which you posted your evidence came accross the computer screen as a disrespectful representation of opinion as fact, leaving out additional information that provides important context when reading such quotes. Content, without context, lacks meaning. Unfortunately, the only context you provided was...oh yeah...read it and weep, and put this in your pipe and smoke it.

Prior to that, you stated that logic dictated a conclusion. No premises were provided, no progressive syllogism, no backgound to support that logic would dictate X. When you attempted to wriggle out, you provided further info-flow that was, again, less than internally valid.

I have the disease of brain and hands not working right as well; I've also got the disorder in which I can only get one foot out of my mouth long enough to snap the other one in it. Perhaps it is the limitation of the media that contributed to this discourse, but absent evidence to the contrary, I am left to assume that your proposal -- left to stand as it is -- is an example of fanism and evangelical loyalty. Props: You should be proud of your instrucotr & lineage.

In my personal opinion, one should also be open to the possibility that there might be more in this universe, Horatio, than is accounted for in your take on things.

Me again,

Dave


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> That would be putting words in my mouth. *I have never said that no one else didn't have the system. I never said that Tatum had all the system. I never said there was no information out there that others had that Tatum didn't.* I just implied that there would be one (not mentioning names) who had more of the information than any one other person. I then said I believed that person to be Tatum. The Hypocrisy of you critizing my logic knows no bounds.


 
Actually your previous posts were pushing these very points, unless you edited them.

:feedtroll


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ad Hominem (Also called argument against the person) An argument that conclude that a claim is false because it was mad by a particular person is fallacious unless there are good reasons to believe that most of what the person says about the subject matter of the conclusion is false. Sometimes the Character of the person is attacked (Abusive ad hominem), sometime the persons circumstances are attacked (circumstantial ad hominem) and sometime the person is attacked for somehow being associated with the position criticized in the argument (tu quoque).
> 
> Introduction to Logic and critical thinking Second edition Merrilee H Salmon
> 
> I know what it is, *don't think that because you claim to be a Dr. that makes more knowledgeable than others*.


 
That makes two of us.

And I keep Copi's Introduction to Logic & Critical Thinking near my PC, along with some papers on George Polya's Patterns of Plausible Inference. However, right now I'm working on Functional Soft Tissue Examination & Treatment by Manual Methods, by Warren Hammer...particularly, the shoulder chapter.

D


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say. Ok this time I will be respectful and just say please read it with an open mind!
> 
> *http://www.tracyskarate.com/AmKenpo/Tatum.htm*
> 
> *TRACYS GUIDE TO AMERICAN KENPO *
> *VIDEOS ....*


 
Let me get this straight....

1) First you state your opinon as fact....

2) When the issue of seniorty comes up like 'Doc' Chapel being Senior to Mr. Tatum you throw *seniority* out of the window and say it doesn't matter because of an article that names Mr. Tatum as ONE OF THREE proteges.....

3) When that doesn't work to convince people of your GM's magnificence you post someone else's OPINION, and imply that it carries weight because of ...get this......their *seniority!*

4) And then you state that your arguement has no logical flaws?
:rofl: 
:roflmao:
.....................
:whip:


----------



## pete

KenpoRonin may not be the captain of the harvard dabating team, but he is a good kenpoist (we trained together at a camp) and has legitimate point. Larry Tatum is teaching the correct and complete system of American Kenpo. that answers the question. others maybe, who cares...


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

pete said:
			
		

> KenpoRonin may not be the captain of the harvard dabating team, but he is a good kenpoist (we trained together at a camp) and has legitimate point. Larry Tatum is teaching the correct and complete system of American Kenpo. that answers the question. others maybe, who cares...


 
1) Being a good kenpoist is not in question.  He trains with Clyde so he'll get my vote.

2) That Mr. Tatum teaches A correct and complete system of American Kenpo is not in question.

The problem are the claims that 1) Tatum is teaching THE complete system of American Kenpo as the system went through several revisions and was due for some more and 2) That Tatum is the ONLY and BEST person teaching "THE complete" system of American Kenpo.

In short opinions aren't a problem, people stating their opinion as fact and then soliciting very old information that is both opinionated and subjective as "hard" evidence is a problem.

He likes GM Tatum, great so do I.  I think he's one of the best.  I also think Huk is one of the best, I also think Doc is one of the best, I also think Trejo is one of the best, I also think Pick is one of the best..... unfortunately none of them are THE Best because that cannot be quantified and no level of conjecture (speculating without hard evidence) will change that.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

pete said:
			
		

> KenpoRonin may not be the captain of the harvard dabating team, but he is a good kenpoist (we trained together at a camp) and has legitimate point. Larry Tatum is teaching the correct and complete system of American Kenpo. that answers the question. others maybe, who cares...


 
I admire his tenacity; with the slew of us picking on him, he stood his ground. I'd bet he's a good kenpoist, if he brings even a fraction of that to his training. Yet again, Mr. Tatum's kenpo ain't the only kenpo. Damn good, and fast enough and technical enough that I'm sure he gets bored waiting for an attack to get there, so he works on grocery lists, etc. So in answer to whom, yes. Larry is one of them. That was not in question. Larry's undisputed apostolic succession was (note: my words, not kenporonin's).

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Kenpodoc

This has been an amusing thread since we all know that Chief Roman is the clear successor to Mr. Parker.

Come on guys join me and ignor this thread.  Wy try to argue with someone who knows the One True Way.

Jeff


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> 1) Being a good kenpoist is not in question. He trains with Clyde so he'll get my vote.
> 
> 2) That Mr. Tatum teaches A correct and complete system of American Kenpo is not in question.
> 
> The problem are the claims that 1) Tatum is teaching THE complete system of American Kenpo as the system went through several revisions and was due for some more and 2) That Tatum is the ONLY and BEST person teaching "THE complete" system of American Kenpo.
> 
> In short opinions aren't a problem, people stating their opinion as fact and then soliciting very old information that is both opinionated and subjective as "hard" evidence is a problem.
> 
> He likes GM Tatum, great so do I. I think he's one of the best. I also think Huk is one of the best, I also think Doc is one of the best, I also think Trejo is one of the best, I also think Pick is one of the best..... unfortunately none of them are THE Best because that cannot be quantified and no level of conjecture (speculating without hard evidence) will change that.


 
Couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I didn't.


----------



## hongkongfooey

I felt this was fitting for this thread.

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/lastdragon/lastdragon6.wav


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> I felt this was fitting for this thread.
> 
> http://www.badmovies.org/movies/lastdragon/lastdragon6.wav


 
Kiss my converse


----------



## Carol

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> I felt this was fitting for this thread.


 
Sho 'Nuff


----------



## hongkongfooey

pete said:
			
		

> KenpoRonin may not be the captain of the harvard dabating team, but he is a good kenpoist (we trained together at a camp) and has legitimate point. Larry Tatum is teaching the correct and complete system of American Kenpo. that answers the question. others maybe, who cares...


 
So what is the incorrect system of Kenpo? Just because it is the latest doesn't make it correct. I would take an older version of Kenpo taught with correct basics and body mechanics over the "correct" version that many schools teach today.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> So what is the incorrect system of Kenpo? Just because it is the latest doesn't make it correct. I would take an older version of Kenpo taught with correct basics and body mechanics over the "correct" version that many schools teach today.


 
And therein lies the controversy.

What is the difference between complete and correct? There are several who teach the complete kenpo cirriculum...techs, extensions, sets...2 man, staff, etc. Stuff that, for one reason or another, has been dropped out by others in kenpo. Even among them ("them" being the guys who do the complete system) you won't find 2 who teach 5 swords the same way. Minor variations will exist from school to school, and from generation to generation.

Correct differs from complete. I'm still working on my footwork in Short 1, and on making sure my hammerfists land like hammers, and not puffs (I figure, a hammer breaks whatever you hit with it, since the targets are softer than the striking tool. So, until I'm breaking bones or rupturing organs with every hammerfist in Thundering Hammers, I got no business moving on to the extension). This, to me, is correct-focused kenpo.

There are a few who will be able to do it all. I ain't one of them. Personally, I would rather really own about 1/2 dozen sparring combinations, 1/2 dozen kick-boxing combos, about 1/2 of the kenpo technique body, a handful of throws, and some wrasslin'. And I mean OWN it. I can still explore and discover new things in simple basics that I'd never seen before.  Aside from participating in this thread, the bulk of the day has been spent reviewing the biomechanics of the shoulder with throwing activities, and on identifying kinematic chain dysfunctions and how to fix them. This info interestingly applies to much of what we do as kenpoists, and suggests some rather needful changes from what most do, most often.

So now, instead of tromping off to practice the complete system, I'm tromping off to re-evaluate shoulder muscle dynamics in kenpo blocks & strikes. I gots no business burning more data deeper into memory if my mechanics need improving. And my mechanics ALWAYS need improving.

But that's just me. I'm also an idiot: Ask my ex-girlfriends.

Dave


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> This has been an amusing thread since we all know that Chief Roman is the clear successor to Mr. Parker....
> 
> Jeff


 
:rofl:
:roflmao:

that was just low!


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> I felt this was fitting for this thread.
> 
> http://www.badmovies.org/movies/lastdragon/lastdragon6.wav


 
The sad part is I pledged a fraternity (actually we call it a social fellowship) and the names given to me were

1) Sho'Nuff

and 

2) Blackie Chan


----------



## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> The sad part is I pledged a fraternity (actually we call it a social fellowship) and the names given to me were
> 
> 1) Sho'Nuff
> 
> and
> 
> 2) Blackie Chan


From a annointed "ChiNegro," I feel your pain.


----------



## green meanie

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> I felt this was fitting for this thread.
> 
> http://www.badmovies.org/movies/lastdragon/lastdragon6.wav


 
:rofl: I'm forever in your debt. :asian:


----------



## Brother John

Doc said:
			
		

> From a annointed "ChiNegro," I feel your pain.



as you know, Doc, I'm a correctional officer.....
I have a young man on my case-load currently who has a tatt of "Sho-Nuf" on his back....and the words "Who's da baddest Mo Fo, low-down round this town?"

cracked me up when he tried to tell me about his martial arts background.
Said he was a student of "Bruce Lee", yet he was born in 1989.

Nice trick..that....

Your Bro. (low down round this town)
John


----------



## Kreth

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our posting policy. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Kreth/Jeff Velten
MT Senior Moderator


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> So what is the incorrect system of Kenpo? Just because it is the latest doesn't make it correct. I would take an older version of Kenpo taught with correct basics and body mechanics over the "correct" version that many schools teach today.


 
Careful now, I hear that people frown upon ttat whole "making sense" idea. LOL. Good point.


----------



## kenpohack

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I admire his tenacity; with the slew of us picking on him, he stood his ground. I'd bet he's a good kenpoist, if he brings even a fraction of that to his training. Yet again, Mr. Tatum's kenpo ain't the only kenpo. Damn good, and fast enough and technical enough that I'm sure he gets bored waiting for an attack to get there, so he works on grocery lists, etc. So in answer to whom, yes. Larry is one of them. That was not in question. Larry's undisputed apostolic succession was (note: my words, not kenporonin's).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave



I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.


----------



## hongkongfooey

kenpohack said:
			
		

> I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.
> 
> For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.




You can tell that you are from Clyde's line. I guess the problem doesn't stem from someone's opinion. Though, it does become a problem when someone presents their opinion as fact and then proceeds to tell everyone in a round about way that only Larry Tatum and his line have the real Kenpo. Larry Tatum is damn good, but he isn't the only person to have knowledge in Kenpoland. Maybe guys like Tom Kelly and Huk Planas, who helped Ed Parker put together the "new" system that only Larry's line could  possibly be good at, could add further insight. But they're not here. So we have to all pretend that we now know what the truth is when none of really do. The only person who knows who received all of Mr. Parkers knowledge is Ed Parker, and he's dead, so all we have is speculation.


----------



## jazkiljok

kenpohack said:
			
		

> I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.
> 
> For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.



i agree- an opinion is just that-- who knows much about most of the folks here and what they really know or do not in the arts and whether these opinions amount to anything at all-- we just state things that we "feel" or think and let the discussion flow-- i frankly IMHO don't even think it would have made much difference if Ed Parker deemed Larry Tatum or anyone else for that matter his successor. Ed Parker's reasoning for his choice would have been subjected to the same scrutiny and disagreements anyway.

we're all in fool's paradises-- hearing a contrary opinion isn't going to go far to changing a viewpoint of most folks. 

now spending 5 to 50 years doing kenpo/MAs one way and then going in front of some one who teaches you something that blows you away and alters how you do something that you've been doing all those years-- that's how you change viewpoints in the MAs.

and the person who can do that, that's the person who is teaching the correct way...

contrarians-- have at it.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

jazkiljok said:
			
		

> i agree- an opinion is just that-- who knows much about most of the folks here and what they really know or do not in the arts and whether these opinions amount to anything at all-- we just state things that we "feel" or think and let the discussion flow-- i *frankly IMHO don't even think it would have made much difference if Ed Parker deemed Larry Tatum or anyone else for that matter his successor. Ed Parker's reasoning for his choice would have been subjected to the same scrutiny and disagreements anyway.*
> 
> we're all in fool's paradises-- hearing a contrary opinion isn't going to go far to changing a viewpoint of most folks.
> 
> *now spending 5 to 50 years doing kenpo/MAs one way and then going in front of some one who teaches you something that blows you away and alters how you do something that you've been doing all those years-- that's how you change viewpoints in the MAs.*
> 
> and the person who can do that, that's the person who is teaching the correct way...
> 
> contrarians-- have at it.


 
Excellent post, excellent points.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

kenpohack said:
			
		

> I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.
> 
> For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.


 
I repeat, Opinions are fine. Opinions stated as fact (which is what Brian's posts were about before the backpedalling) are not. Speaking of a fools paradise, only a fool deals in absolutes. A fool also proclaims that someone is the best (again another absolute) without seeing EVERYONE else who does the same thing. (e.g. "Tatum moves better than anyone else") have you seen all of the other millions of kenpo practitioners to substantiate this or is it another assumption? Also exactly what is the "clearly delineated standard" for 'moves better' that is not based on the opinion of the observer in question?  Again Tatum is one of the best in many categories, but I personally haven't and never will see everyone to be able to call him THE best at anything. Assumptions violate the "rules of logic" as well.

Again opinons = great. Passion about opinions = great. Passion combined with dedication = great. Passion combined with dedication that turns opinions into facts and snide comments with those who dispute "the facts" = not so great.

Opinions + Conjecture + Assumptions < Actual Facts.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

kenpohack said:
			
		

> I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.
> 
> For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.


 
You are correct, sir. I did create a false dillemma. Unfortunately, as I see it (in my opinion), the infrequent exception to the rule does not nullify the rule. Clyde may be both technical and tough, and perfectly capable of kicking many a buttock. And? Will we now go into a complex equivalence of "this means that", or a negated form to say "this means not that'?. Or better still, lets decline into argumentum ad bacculum in a twisted sort of way...might is right. Since Clyde can kick many buttocks, there IS no dilemma between iron-workers & watch-makers.

Hm


----------



## Doc

*"Anybody who is any good is different from anybody else." * Felix Frankfurter 

*"If everybody is doing it, it can't be the best." *- Ed Parker Sr.


----------



## JamesB

Doc said:
			
		

> *"Anybody who is any good is different from anybody else." * Felix Frankfurter
> 
> *"If everybody is doing it, it can't be the best." *- Ed Parker Sr.


 
I like those quotes   and personally I believe a more appropriate title for this thread would have been 'who is teaching the most effective system?'  'correct' is only a personal view-point, whereas 'effective' is effective no matter what.


----------



## Andrew Green

JamesB said:
			
		

> whereas 'effective' is effective no matter what.



Effective requires criteria and a means of testing, any ideas?


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

JamesB said:
			
		

> I like those quotes  and personally I believe a more appropriate title for this thread would have been 'who is teaching the most effective system?' 'correct' is only a personal view-point, whereas 'effective' is effective no matter what.


 
True that effective is effective.  However as soon as you add the modifier "most" it's open to the same debate again.

What's the "most" effective a head kick or choke?  They both put the other guy to sleep.  The kick is quicker but not guaranteed when it hits.  The choke is slower but once its set going out is guaranteed.

What's the "most" effective a head kick or a choke?  Try to get a kickboxer and Ju Jitsu gu to agree on that.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Effective requires criteria and a means of testing, any ideas?


 
Since Kenpo addresses multiple attackers, varying environments and weapons.  Put all of the seniors and their best students in one big cage around an occupied parking lot littered with debris.  Last man/team standing has the "most" effective system.

As if...


----------



## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Since Kenpo addresses multiple attackers, varying environments and weapons.  Put all of the seniors and their best students in one big cage around an occupied parking lot littered with debris.  Last man/team standing has the "most" effective system.
> 
> As if...


But that means nothing. Me and my team carry guns all the time.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:
			
		

> But that means nothing. Me and my team carry guns all the time.


 
:rofl:


----------



## Andrew Green

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Since Kenpo addresses multiple attackers, varying environments and weapons.  Put all of the seniors and their best students in one big cage around an occupied parking lot littered with debris.  Last man/team standing has the "most" effective system.
> 
> As if...




Now there is a PPV


----------



## JamesB

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> True that effective is effective. However as soon as you add the modifier "most" it's open to the same debate again.


 
doh! ok you got me....and I guess even 'who's teaching *an* effective system' is just as subjective.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Now there is a PPV


 
yeah, probably better than the last UFC.  They should have called that one UFC 61: All Snores and No Smores.


----------



## Andrew Green

JamesB said:
			
		

> doh! ok you got me....and I guess even 'who's teaching *an* effective system' is just as subjective.



Yup, unless you can specify "effective under what criteria" and test that claim, "effective" is not very meaningful.


----------



## Carol

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> True that effective is effective. However as soon as you add the modifier "most" it's open to the same debate again.
> 
> What's the "most" effective a head kick or choke? They both put the other guy to sleep. The kick is quicker but not guaranteed when it hits. The choke is slower but once its set going out is guaranteed.
> 
> What's the "most" effective a head kick or a choke? Try to get a kickboxer and Ju Jitsu gu to agree on that.


 
What is "most effective" for a person...

....that is a soldier depending on their MA skills for their very survival?

...that sees Kenpo as career salvation and has designs of being a hotshot themselves?

...that sees reputable fighting skills as their life's greatest achievement?

...whose mental game outpaces their physical game?  

...for a desk jockey that has one career and doesn't need another one?

...for parents and children that train together?

Not all fighters are alike.  I think "effective" depends on the goals and the student, and is as hard to fefine as "correct".


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> What is "most effective" for a person...
> 
> ....that is a soldier depending on their MA skills for their very survival?
> 
> ...that sees Kenpo as career salvation and has designs of being a hotshot themselves?
> 
> ...that sees reputable fighting skills as their life's greatest achievement?
> 
> ...whose mental game outpaces their physical game?
> 
> ...for a desk jockey that has one career and doesn't need another one?
> 
> ...for parents and children that train together?
> 
> Not all fighters are alike. I think "effective" depends on the goals and the student, and is as hard to fefine as "correct".


 
You know what? I've been reading alot of your posts lately and I must say .......................................................................................................... There you go with that making sense thing again.  How dare you! LOL.


----------



## John Bishop

Just a suggestion, from a moderators viewpoint. These types of discussions *are always* going to bring out some strong feelings on both sides of the debate. 
But there is a wealth of good information coming out of this thread. And even though one might feel totally justified to post a vague insult or snide remark here and there, it does nothing to contribute to the discussion. In fact it hinders the discussion when knowledgeble people cease to participate. 
There are many senior kenpo stylists who read these discussions, and only a few who participate. Many of the one's that don't participate are turned off by the petty bickering that is sometimes a part of all forum discussions. Some also take the attitude of "I don't need to have some 20 something shodan questioning everything I say". And whether you think that's an elitist attitude to take or not, they put in the time, paid their dues, and earned the right to have that opinion. 
Having been around people like SGM Parker, Sijo Emperado, and many seniors of other systems, I was always impressed with the fact that they always treated others with respect and politness (at least in public). 
So my suggestion is, hear everyone out. If you think what they're saying is total B.S., then present a intelligent response. Control your need to make a sarcastic comeback. There might be a few pearls of wisdom in a huge pile of empty shells. But you won't find them if you don't examine every shell.


----------



## KenpoRonin

I go away for a day and this forum goes to crap. "that's my opinion"...

 	 	 	 	 	 	 	 	 	  For the record this is what I said, not back peddling, clarification.



There is one person who has More 	of the system than any other person.  That does not mean all of the 	system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system.  Ergo 	no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a 	particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete 	system.
There may be individuals with more 	information which was accumulated from other systems, but may not 	fit well with Kenpo.
 Ed Parker gave more information 	to certain individuals than he did to others, based on trust, not 	seniority.   	

 Notice I have not said anyone in particular, that is because I am not making any claim as fact for any one individual, but that there is always one better than the rest.


 For instance who was the best basketball player of all time?   


 Who is the best rock band of all time?


 Who is the best cyclist of all time?


 Who is the greatest composer of all time?


 Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.


 I only later stated that Tatum was who I BELIEVED to be the heir-apparent to the system.


 As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that


   "As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence" That was a response to someone elses post.




So quit putting words in my mouth.


----------



## Flying Crane

KenpoRonin,

You certainly have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to stick to your guns and defend your opinion and debate those who disagree.  

But you have a tendency to be somewhat confrontational in how you post.  Examples: 

1. "stick that in your pipe and smoke it"

2. "so quit putting words in my mouth", stated after a somewhat terse sounding (at least to me) post.

My suggestion is that you just ease back with your delivery.  Postings that come across as confrontational (even if you didn't mean them to be) are not going to be well received and will not earn you respect.  Re-read what you write before you post your messages.  Consider how your tone might be taken.  That's all.

I don't know anything about Mr. Tatum.  It's good to see someone who believes so strongly in his lineage.  I personally don't have that strong a connection in my own kenpo and maybe that is to my detriment.  But delivery is key when putting forth your opinion.

Just a friendly suggestion.  Take it as you will.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> KenpoRonin,
> 
> You certainly have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to stick to your guns and defend your opinion and debate those who disagree.
> 
> But you have a tendency to be somewhat confrontational in how you post.  Examples:
> 
> 1. "stick that in your pipe and smoke it"
> 
> 2. "so quit putting words in my mouth", stated after a somewhat terse sounding (at least to me) post.
> 
> My suggestion is that you just ease back with your delivery. Postings that come across as confrontational (even if you didn't mean them to be) are not going to be well received and will not earn you respect. Re-read what you write before you post your messages. Consider how your tone might be taken. That's all.
> 
> I don't know anything about Mr. Tatum. It's good to see someone who believes so strongly in his lineage. I personally don't have that strong a connection in my own kenpo and maybe that is to my detriment. But delivery is key when putting forth your opinion.
> 
> Just a friendly suggestion.  Take it as you will.




I realize that my tone may be harsh, but when you are sparing 6 on 1 you can't always hit with kid gloves.

Though I will say that you are the most open minded person on this forum.

Quick question the picture, is that from Blade Runner?


----------



## Flying Crane

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I realize that my tone may be harsh, but when you are sparing 6 on 1 you can't always hit with kid gloves.
> 
> Though I will say that you are the most open minded person on this forum.
> 
> Quick question the picture, is that from Blade Runner?


 
I understand you may feel outgunned and under attack.  But for peace to prevail, someone has to make the decision to stop fighting even if it means giving up an opportunity to get even. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Yup, Leon from Bladerunner.  Most people don't get that.  Congrats!


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> *There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system* or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.


 


			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Tatum was the Key guy for how long. *No one before him had all the information* and how many after him were able to get it?
> 
> I only later stated that Tatum was who I BELIEVED to be the heir-apparent to the system.
> 
> *As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that*
> 
> "As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence" That was a response to someone elses post.


 


			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> *As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims,* as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor.


 


			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Now *Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares* Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument.


 



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok I am not senior but *I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say.*


 




			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. *There were only three mentioned to been getting all of it.* You were not one of them, sir.


 


			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I *never said that Tatum had all the system*.


 


			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> *Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares....*


 



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> *I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior*.


 




			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> so quit putting words in my mouth


 

So having read all of what you posted, at what point were there words put into your mouth, and at what point did you not backpedal? You have a different *opinion* fine. But don't act like you didn't post certain things and try to play the victim. Some of us are actually reading the thread and paying attention.

:whip:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> So having read all of what you posted, at what point were there words put into your mouth, and at what point did you not backpedal? You have a different *opinion* fine. But don't act like you didn't post certain things and try to play the victim. Some of us are actually reading the thread and paying attention.
> 
> :whip:


 
Ayup.


----------



## jazkiljok

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I go away for a day and this forum goes to crap. "that's my opinion"...
> 
> For the record this is what I said, not back peddling, clarification.
> 
> 
> 
> There is one person who has More 	of the system than any other person.  That does not mean all of the 	system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system.  Ergo 	no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a 	particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete 	system.





lost me on that one. 



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> There may be individuals with more 	information which was accumulated from other systems, but may not 	fit well with Kenpo.


or it does fit well...point being?



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> [*] Ed Parker gave more information 	to certain individuals than he did to others, based on trust, not 	seniority.



and what does that portend? 



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I Notice I have not said anyone in particular, that is because I am not making any claim as fact for any one individual, but that there is always one better than the rest.



better at what exactly?




			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> For instance who was the best basketball player of all time?



no doubt, Bill Russell.




			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Who is the best rock band of all time?



of course, the Clash... go on




			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Who is the best cyclist of all time?



Eddy Merckx




			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Who is the greatest composer of all time?



Bach, but do you contemporary bastards care anymore...:idunno: 




			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.


 
just a degree? ... lucky we have the general public as the final say in such matters.



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I only later stated that Tatum was who I BELIEVED to be the heir-apparent to the system.



so you have and  time for everyone to move on...



			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that
> 
> 
> "As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence" That was a response to someone elses post.



yeah- who you going to believe?... me or your lying eyes!? 




			
				KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> So quit putting words in my mouth.



word to that.


----------



## Kenpodoc

My uneducated opinion.

1. The senior who knows the Parker system of the early '60's best - either Al Tracy or Chuck Sullivan.

2. The senior who knows the commercial system as outlined in the '70s and subtly modified thereafter - Huk Planas.

3. The senior who likely knows the most about Mr. Parkers non-commercial approach to an american version of the chinese Martial Arts - Ron Chapel.

4. The senior with the most direct effect on my personal journey in american Kenpo - Lee Wedlake.

5. The senior with the students most willing to trash the abilities of everyone except the one true Messiah - Larry Tatum. (I find this odd as he is clearly personally very talented and should need no external validation. I've not met him personally but he was very polite and respectful in our one phone conversation. He was neither at the center of the development of the commercial Kenpo Model nor in the last group studying with the Master. He does have students such as Clyde who are willing to personally test their skills in personal confrontation but so do other seniors, they just spend less time bragging about it. [Ron Chapel and Steve LaBounty have I believe both had opportunity to test their Kenpo in the far less forgiving arena of Law enforcement.]) I respect Mr. Tatum's abilities as a Martial Artist and an Instructor but now wonder why his students feel it necessary to trumpet their version as the one true way and brusquely demean everyone else. 

KenpRonin, I'm glad you have found your martial Arts Messiah. If you want to prove that he teaches the one true way then i would suggest that rather than merely demean others choices, go to the Techniques area and convince us that your version is better than the others. Better yet go to seminars and be such a shining light of quality Kenpo that others choose to seek your way. 

Respectfully submitted,

Jeff


----------



## kevin kilroe

How about posting some videos in the Members in Motion section?


----------



## hongkongfooey

Good post KenpoDoc!


----------



## jaybacca72

great post kenpodoc,you hit the nail right on the head. many people forget who taught tatum while mr.parker was travelling around teaching others promoting kenpo and mr.trejo was also trained by this person (or heavily influenced) so i will let you guess? except for the people that were there they already know.
later
jay arnold


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> great post kenpodoc,you hit the nail right on the head. many people forget who taught tatum while mr.parker was travelling around teaching others promoting kenpo and mr.trejo was also trained by this person (or heavily influenced) so i will let you guess? except for the people that were there they already know.
> later
> jay arnold


 
Who is Richard 'Huk' Planas for $1000, but this is always 'forgotten'


----------



## James Kovacich

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> And therein lies the controversy.
> 
> Personally, I would rather really own about 1/2 dozen sparring combinations, 1/2 dozen kick-boxing combos, about 1/2 of the kenpo technique body, a handful of throws, and some wrasslin'. And I mean OWN it. I can still explore and discover new things in simple basics that I'd never seen before.
> So now, instead of tromping off to practice the complete system, I'm tromping off to re-evaluate shoulder muscle dynamics in kenpo blocks & strikes. I gots no business burning more data deeper into memory if my mechanics need improving. And my mechanics ALWAYS need improving.
> 
> 
> Dave


Thats a good post that could be said of any system! People probably think I'm being an *** when I pick apart techniques or training methods but greatness in a little goes much farther than good in alot. Thank you my friend.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> So having read all of what you posted, at what point were there words put into your mouth, and at what point did you not backpedal? You have a different *opinion* fine. But don't act like you didn't post certain things and try to play the victim. Some of us are actually reading the thread and paying attention.
> 
> :whip:


 
How very clever of you.  

*There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system*_ or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system. _

*No one before him had all the information*_ and how many after him were able to get it?_

_The second post was in reference to what Parker said about him, I was simply paraphrasing Parker.  _

*As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that*

*As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims,*_ as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor._

_This post was in refernce to my previous post, but I did provide evidence of Parker Claiming Tatum as the Key guy and likely heir._

_Now *Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares* Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument. _

_Ok I am not senior but *I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say.*_

*Those are two separate points, though both have to do with history.  Chapels claim about being more senior has to do with being more legit or more something.  Since no one would answer the question of that post rather attacked me for making it.  I will assume that he himself superior in some way.  I offer someone to give me another plausible reason if I am wrong.  Second I offered up Tracy as only someone who being on the sidelines the whole time as a non-partisan historical perspective.* _Nice try though_

*Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares....* 

*I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior*_. _

_You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isnt your field, maybe something like the peace corp.  I was simply proving error in his argument.  _

_Nice try._


----------



## HKphooey

I will develop myself in a positive manner and avoid anything that would reduce my mental growth or my physical health.
I will develop self discipline in order to bring out the best in myself and others.
I will use the art of Kenpo constructively and defensively to help myself and my fellow man and never to be abusive or offensive.
I will live by the principles of black belt: modesty, integrity, perseverance, self-control and indomitable spirit.


----------



## Ray

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> *There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. *
> 
> 
> *No one before him had all the information*_ and how many after him were able to get it?_
> 
> 
> _Now *Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. *_*I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior*_. _
> 
> 
> _You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isn&#8217;t your field, maybe something like the peace corp. I was simply proving error in his argument. _


I don't really know who's teaching the "correct" system but there are several people teaching "better" than what I know.

Given the opportunity to study under Mr. Chapel, or Mr. Tatum or Mr. Sepulveda or Mr. Planas or Mr. Pick (and the list goes on), I would jump at the chance--because any of them can make me a better kenpo practitioner. Then again, do I have the talent and determination to make their teaching and make it work for me?

Besides this thread is just more and more like "my dad can lick your dad" arguements of 10 year old kids.


----------



## Hand Sword




----------



## Hand Sword

First, no one system is any better than any of the others, (This includes the Kenpo versions too!)

Second, reasonable thinking would say that those who got their BB's before so and so... Are legitimit, no arguing there. However, when they got theirs, Ed Parker and his Kenpo were young and still evolving. Later students, such as Mr. Tatum, Got the finished version or closer to it, along the lines of Kenpo's and Mr. Parker's evolution. The older students were set in their Kenpo ways, exchanged with Mr. Parker off and on, and added/ deleted to their Kenpo, along the lines of their own prefernces, making it Their Kenpo, as we all do with time.

Bottom line, all are legit. Having spent the time and practice that they all have proves this. If one can spend time with each, you would learn.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_I go away for a day and this forum goes to crap. "that's my opinion"...

For the record this is what I said, not back peddling, clarification.


There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.
_



lost me on that one. 
Not surprising.  Simply stated, there is a short list of those who are the best.  Of that list there are no two who are equal.  Some excel in certain fields.  There would be one who excels in more fields than the rest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_There may be individuals with more information which was accumulated from other systems, but may not fit well with Kenpo. _

or it does fit well...point being?
There are a lot of people adopted in and never got the full system.  Remember what this post is about, if you are confused which is something I think happens to you a lot, look just under my name it will tell you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_
[*] Ed Parker gave more information to certain individuals than he did to others, based on trust, not seniority. _


and what does that portend? 
Just reiterating my point that seniority is not always what it is cracked up to be.  
Quote:
Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_I Notice I have not said anyone in particular, that is because I am not making any claim as fact for any one individual, but that there is always one better than the rest. _


better at what exactly?
Many here on this post love to think all the old greats are equal in their own right.  This is fallacious based on my above argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_For instance who was the best basketball player of all time?_

no doubt, Bill Russell.



Quote:
Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_Who is the best rock band of all time?_


of course, the Clash... go on


Quote:
Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_Who is the best cyclist of all time?_


Eddy Merckx


Quote:
Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_Who is the greatest composer of all time?_


Bach, but do you contemporary bastards care anymore... 


Quote:
Originally Posted by *KenpoRonin*
_Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers._


just a degree? ... lucky we have the general public as the final say in such matters.
I stand corrected if your answers an example of the general public, The general public obviously are idiots.


----------



## MJS

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> How very clever of you.
> 
> *There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system*_ or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system. _
> 
> *No one before him had all the information*_ and how many after him were able to get it?_
> 
> _The second post was in reference to what Parker said about him, I was simply paraphrasing Parker. _
> 
> *As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that*
> 
> *As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims,*_ as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor._
> 
> _This post was in refernce to my previous post, but I did provide evidence of Parker Claiming Tatum as the Key guy and likely heir._
> 
> _Now *Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares* Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument. _
> 
> _Ok I am not senior but *I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say.*_
> 
> *Those are two separate points, though both have to do with history. Chapels claim about being more senior has to do with being more legit or more something. Since no one would answer the question of that post rather attacked me for making it. I will assume that he himself superior in some way. I offer someone to give me another plausible reason if I am wrong. Second I offered up Tracy as only someone who being on the sidelines the whole time as a non-partisan historical perspective.*_Nice try though_
> 
> *Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares....*
> 
> *I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior*_. _
> 
> _You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isnt your field, maybe something like the peace corp. I was simply proving error in his argument. _
> 
> _Nice try._


 
While I realize that this is a hot issue, taking shots at one another really isn't going to do much more than get the thread shut down.  Now, aside from that, I saw above that you said that you had evidence.  I'm not interested in taking shots at you, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding the above comment.

Mike


----------



## Carol

There is an OCR scan of the article on Larry Tatum's website, as well as on usadojo.com.  Same scan, but the formatting on usadojo.com is a bit easier to read.

I made an attempt to keep the quotes in context.  If someone does have a copy of the magazne, it would be seriously cool to get a clean scan of it.  It's a very good read.

Full Article:
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/magician-motion.htm


Snippet:  Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"



> "A lot of kenpo instructors are searching," he said. "I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I haven't stuck to tradition. When you stick to tradition, you're bound. You're bound to see only what is in that realm of knowl- edge."
> 
> It is just this rejection of tradition that has led the kenpoist to the second secret of his system, a concept based on the age-old premise that the end justifies the means.
> 
> "When I teach, I want effects," Parker said. "If a punch comes, if you block it and you look lazy, as long as you block it, that's alii care about. I don't give a damn about going down with beautiful form.
> 
> "I was talking like this twenty years ago when I was a no-good-for-nothing rebel. I'm a street fighter. I'm a realist. I've seen guys go into a fight and bite {the other) guy's nose off. And knowing that his nose is gone, he still hits! He's an animal.


 

Snippet:  Ed Parker also indicates that: 
- he held back some knowledge
- he took on proteges to help ensure the continuity of Kenpo
- That he shared his full scope of knowledge with these proteges
- That his knowledge would also be shared with anyone else that is sincere, because when he goes to his grave he would want other people to know
-  That his students (plural) would modify and perfect Kenpo  



> Parker admitted more than the fear of jealous rivals has motivated his reti- cence regarding his American kenpo. He said he has worried over former students who would leave and open up kenpo studios of their own.
> "I always had the fear of guys taking off, being disloyal and opening up on their own," he said. "And so I left out a lot of stuff."
> 
> Parker said he found some students resenting his secretiveness, once they found out he had hidden knowledge from them. "They were somewhat hurt in a way ," he admitted, "but they still feel happy. They are (the now-complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is, I was going to reserve it (the knowledge) for my chil- dren and my son. He's not interested in the martial arts. He studies, but his heart is in the (fine)
> arts."
> 
> In place of children lost as succes- sors, Parker ~oted he has taken on pro- teges to insure the continuity of the kenpo systemo .
> "My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my. number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "
> 
> The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weal on. He also named two others he consil ers proteges, insiders with whom he h. shared the full scope of his knowledge Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the higl est-degree black belt at a seventh-dG level, operates a Parker school in Sa Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another forml student who Parker said holds a fiftl degree black belt, teaches at a school i Baltimore.
> 
> In addition to h is select protege Parker insisted he will offer his kno~ edge to "anyone else who's definitel sincere, because when I go to the grave want to know that there are other pel pie who (know) outside of my famil' They would have the mountain ( knowledge."
> 
> Once he sees his students and prc teges have the mountain securely withi their grip, Parker said he will rest eas regarding the future of kenpo.
> "I don't see that once my studen learn kenpo, they'll modify it," he saic "They'll perfect it. And that's wher they will excel."


 
KenpoRonin, this is not a slam at you or anyone else, please don't take it s such.  

From a birds eye view, this reads to me like Mr. Parker identified three proteges with the intent of keeping the system on.   And, that he was leaving the door open for others to follow.  It speaks volumes for the confidence that Mr. Parker had in Mr. Tatum, but to me it reads like Mr. Parker did not intend to have only one successor.  

Personally...public consensus does not strike me as the best metric for making a trainig decision.  It isn't public consensus that determines one's reasons for training in MA, the goals that one wants to see from it,  or how it fits around work/family/geography etc.  It most certainly is NOT public consensus that will dictate how and when any of us will use our skills.  

Dang that would stink if it did.   Make a stupid move on MT...hmmmm....public consensus says OK Carol it's your turn to face an open can of Whoop ***.  Yikes!


----------



## Ray

> In place of children lost as successors,
> Parker noted he has taken on protege*s*
> to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.
> 
> "My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid.
> 
> He's my number one guy *right now*. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything.


protegeS
Right now (back then).


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I stand corrected if your answers an example of the general public, The general public obviously are idiots.


 


			
				Ed Parker said:
			
		

> _It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student *respectful of all*_




Good job Mr. Hoff.  You are showing everyone how well you are assimilating the lessons of Kenpo.  Exactly how does a 'Ronin' (Masterless warrior) become so devoted to one master anyway?  As I've said previously, your dedication is commendable.  But your 'evidence' is lacking and statements contradictory.  And when the contradictions are brought to your attention you become confrontational, thus further negating an valid points you may be trying to present.

Kenpo, Motion Kenpo, EPAK, American Kenpo...whatever you want to call it is a system that is based on logic and has the goal of creating respectful indivduals as stated by Mr. Parker himself.  If you want to hold true to what Mr. Parker said you need to do two things.

1. Be respectful, so far you have not as you view this as "sparring 6 on 1" but you're the only one sparring.

2. Follow logic.  Logic doesn't allow for opinons or assumptions.  So far the argument for several great seniors has been based on logic and history.  The argument for one to succeed all others has been based on opinion, personal sentiment and assumptions.

We all have opinions, but you claim to have facts.  They have yet to be presented and all the snide comments are dragging the thread down, mine included.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Snippet: Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"


 
So I guess we can throw out all the arguments about who moves better............right?



			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> That his *students (plural) would modify and perfect Kenpo*


 
Blasphemy and Heresy I say! LOL

Good Post.


----------



## Carol

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> So I guess we can throw out all the arguments about who moves better............right?


 
Sir you may be asking for trouble when you ask an engineer rhetorical questions 

It calls in to question the importance of "moves better" in terms of Mr. Parker's selection of proteges.  It doesn't say that moving better isn't cool, or isn't a worthy desire of the individual student.   It was nothing that got universalized into the system.



> Blasphemy and Heresy I say! LOL



The plague of locusts are on their way 

*zipping in to a fire suit*

The article reads as if loyalty and sincerity were very important to Mr. Parker.  It indicates that in 1979, Mr. Palanzo was a 7th, and Mr. Kelly a 5th.  

Mr. Tatum was not yet a 5th black at that time, correct?

When determining a protege, one looks at talent as well as potential.  Given the importance that Mr. Parker placed on loyalty, is this really Mr. Parker saying that he preferring his lower black over his higher blacks? 

Or, is he saying that Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Kelly are his students that have already been developed... and Mr. Tatum is developing.   Mr. Tatum is on the path of obtaining all of Mr. Parker's...all while Mr. Parker is delighting in his progress and his potential?  

*peering around for flames*


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Sir you may be asking for trouble when you ask an engineer rhetorical questions
> 
> It calls in to question the importance of "moves better" in terms of Mr. Parker's selection of proteges. It doesn't say that moving better isn't cool, or isn't a worthy desire of the individual student. It was nothing that got universalized into the system.
> 
> 
> 
> The plague of locusts are on their way
> 
> *zipping in to a fire suit*
> 
> The article reads as if loyalty and sincerity were very important to Mr. Parker. It indicates that in 1979, Mr. Palanzo was a 7th, and Mr. Kelly a 5th.
> 
> Mr. Tatum was not yet a 5th black at that time, correct?
> 
> When determining a protege, one looks at talent as well as potential. Given the importance that Mr. Parker placed on loyalty, is this really Mr. Parker saying that he preferring his lower black over his higher blacks?
> 
> *Or, is he saying that Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Kelly are his students that have already been developed... and Mr. Tatum is developing. Mr. Tatum is on the path of obtaining all of Mr. Parker's...all while Mr. Parker is delighting in his progress and his potential?*
> 
> *peering around for flames*


 
You are one sharp person!

Minus the part where Mr. Kelly's and Palanzo's ranks were reversed (If my history serves my Mr. Kelly was 7th and Mr. palanzo was 5th, but I may be wrong) I'd have to agree.  Especially the bolded part.  It could make sense when put in context with the "key guy right now" part of the article.


----------



## Carol

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Mr. Kelly's and Palanzo's ranks were reversed (If my history serves my Mr. Kelly was 7th and Mr. palanzo was 5th, but I may be wrong).


 
No sir you are correct.  It seems my belt chart does not have an effective defence against typos. 

Your kind words are leaving me speechless :asian:


----------



## pete

you can comb through the sacred scrolls, hanging on every word, which may or may not have been as carefully chosen as they are now being interpreted and rationalize anything or everything. 

the question is who is teaching the correct system, and everyone is looking at the WHO IS rather than debating WHAT the CORRECT SYSTEM is.

If we figure that one out, then we can easily identify who is teaching it.

Is the correct system the one we know as American Kenpo, the one with:
 154 self defense techniques,
  96 technique extensions (of orange-green belt techniques), 
  11 forms: 9 empty handed + 2 weapon (clubs and knives), 
   a system of freestyle techniques, 
  14 sets: stance, block, strike, kick, finger, and coord (1&2) + 2-man and one weapon (staff).

To my understanding this is the complete AMERICAN KENPO system. CORRECT would imply the level of QUALITY applied to this material, as both MENTAL KNOWLEDGE and PHYSICAL APPLICATION, through understanding of the CONCEPTS that make the material a system, or SYLLABUS, and TRAINING to achieve the PHYSICAL ACTUALIZATION to make it WORK.

now, WHO is teaching this system correctly?


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

pete said:
			
		

> you can comb through the sacred scrolls, hanging on every word, which may or may not have been as carefully chosen as they are now being interpreted and rationalize anything or everything.
> 
> the question is who is teaching the correct system, and everyone is looking at the WHO IS rather than debating WHAT the CORRECT SYSTEM is.
> 
> If we figure that one out, then we can easily identify who is teaching it.
> 
> Is the correct system the one we know as American Kenpo, the one with:
> 154 self defense techniques,
> 96 technique extensions (of orange-green belt techniques),
> 11 forms: 9 empty handed + 2 weapon (clubs and knives),
> a system of freestyle techniques,
> 14 sets: stance, block, strike, kick, finger, and coord (1&2) + 2-man and one weapon (staff).
> 
> To my understanding this is the complete AMERICAN KENPO system. CORRECT would imply the level of QUALITY applied to this material, as both MENTAL KNOWLEDGE and PHYSICAL APPLICATION, through understanding of the CONCEPTS that make the material a system, or SYLLABUS, and TRAINING to achieve the PHYSICAL ACTUALIZATION to make it WORK.
> 
> now, WHO is teaching this system correctly?


 
Very good points about complete and correct!

Even given your fairly complete list of the "complete" system the 'completeness' could be debated however "your understanding" of it could not.


----------



## KenpoRonin

MJS said:
			
		

> While I realize that this is a hot issue, taking shots at one another really isn't going to do much more than get the thread shut down. Now, aside from that, I saw above that you said that you had evidence. I'm not interested in taking shots at you, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding the above comment.
> 
> Mike


 
Here is a quote from an article Parker had with Black Belt magazine

He has worried over former students would leave and open up Kenpo studios of their own. I always had the fear guys taking off being disloyal and opening up on their own, so I left out a lot of stuff. Parker said he found some students resenting that he had hidden knowledge from him. Quote they were somewhat hurt in a way he admitted but they would still feel happy. They are (the now complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is I was going to reserve the knowledge for my children and my son. He is not interested in the martial arts he studies but his heart is in the fine arts. *In place of children lost as* *successors he has taken on protégés to insure the continuity of the kenpo* *system.* 

_My *key protege* is this kid *Larry Tatum*," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. *He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything*. " 

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon. 

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, *Tom Kelly*, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; *Joe Palanzo*, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore._

Those are Parkers words not mine.  He names three people to be possible successors to the system.  

There are also Five people who listed in the Journey (which is the Who's who of Kenpo) who obtained their black belt from Larry Tatum.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> KenpoRonin, *this is not a slam at you* or anyone else, please don't take it s such.
> 
> From a birds eye view, this reads to me like Mr. Parker identified three proteges with the intent of keeping the system on. And, that he was leaving the door open for others to follow. It speaks volumes for the confidence that Mr. Parker had in Mr. Tatum, but to me it reads like Mr. Parker did not intend to have only one successor.


 
None taken.  I totally agree with what you said.  Parker didn't want just one person to have the information, but he wanted loyal people to have the information.  There is then the question of who were the loyal people who also had enough time to spend with Parker on the mats.  I am talking about hours of mat time.  I know from personal experience that my growth has slowed because I chose instructor that is not in the same town as me.  There is something about spending time with your instructor on a daily basis as apposed to a few times a year.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Ray said:
			
		

> protegeS
> Right now (back then).


 
Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later.  It is not likely that changed one or two years later.  I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.


----------



## Seig

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.


Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "*MR.* "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing. I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde. Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> [/font][/color]
> 
> Good job Mr. Hoff. You are showing everyone how well you are assimilating the lessons of Kenpo. Exactly how does a 'Ronin' (Masterless warrior) become so devoted to one master anyway? As I've said previously, your dedication is commendable. But your 'evidence' is lacking and statements contradictory. And when the contradictions are brought to your attention you become confrontational, thus further negating an valid points you may be trying to present.
> 
> Kenpo, Motion Kenpo, EPAK, American Kenpo...whatever you want to call it is a system that is based on logic and has the goal of creating respectful indivduals as stated by Mr. Parker himself. If you want to hold true to what Mr. Parker said you need to do two things.
> 
> 1. Be respectful, so far you have not as you view this as "sparring 6 on 1" but you're the only one sparring.
> 
> 2. Follow logic. Logic doesn't allow for opinons or assumptions. So far the argument for several great seniors has been based on logic and history. The argument for one to succeed all others has been based on opinion, personal sentiment and assumptions.
> 
> We all have opinions, but you claim to have facts. They have yet to be presented and all the snide comments are dragging the thread down, mine included.


 
I got to say you have a talent for picking apart someone's argument by picking and choosing a segments of my argument and attacking that part.  Completely ignoring the body of my argument or when you cant combat my argument you simply say that I am being disrespectful.  Thought is much like martial arts, one will not grow unless someone is willing to challenge your thought, push your thought into uncomfortable areas.  Until you have put your thoughts into a firing squad and have people attack them, can you know what you know has validity.

I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics.  No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting.  I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks.  I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.


----------



## Ray

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.


Hmmm. Funny you should bring up the "falling out." Maybe Mr. Parker changed his mind about Mr. Tatum?


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I got to say you have a talent for picking apart someone's argument by picking and choosing a segments of my argument and attacking that part. Completely ignoring the body of my argument or when you can&#8217;t combat my argument you simply say that I am being disrespectful. Thought is much like martial arts, one will not grow unless someone is willing to challenge your thought, push your thought into uncomfortable areas. Until you have put your thoughts into a firing squad and have people attack them, can you know what you know has validity.
> 
> I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics. No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting. I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks. I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.


 
Actually if you just said "Tatum is ONE of the best" I'd wholeheartedly agree with you as well.  All of the snide remarks and the "Tatum is THE greatest" stuff is the issue.   Also posting the same article with 3 names repeatedly and disregarding...

1) The "Big Fallout" between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum.

2) The other two names on that list.

3) the others named as proteges after Tatum's "leaving"

....doesn't help your "argument"

No one is "combating" your argument it's dismantling itself by your own posted contraditions and leaving out "key" pieces of the history that refute your claim.  Your opinon cannot be debated.  But the partial facts you present and then alter with your subjective thoughts can.  NO ONE'S opinion can be presented as fact, period.

Forgive me for "picking apart" your arguments.  It's not personal, it's just what I do from working with/within Law Enforcement, Private Sector Security and Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences.  Statements that A) contradict themselves, B) have "logical jumps" or "sequencial gaps" and C) are pure speculation stand out to me in my lines of work and areas of study.

My Ideas about Chapel are the following..

1) Moves cleanly, 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have (it's been argued that NO others have)

My ideas about Tatum are as follows..

1) Moves cleanly (it has been argued even cleaner than Mr. Parker), 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have.

Same ideas but with slight differences which is why I call them both SOME of the best.

Cool stuff (sincerely) you posted about thought and martial arts.  So now that so many have challenged your thoughts on supremacy, successors, logic, history, seniority, etc. Do you think "what you know has validity" as you put it?

P.S. Also as you highlighted youself the article mentions "children lost as successors" but Mr. Parker specfically used the word protege which has a much different meaning.  A protege can become a successor but is not one. And there were again at least 3 at that given time who knows what happened in the next 11 years.

P.P.S. Two of my most respected martial artists are Mike Lambert and Lee Epperson whom I consider a great friend.  Both are with LTKKA.  In other words, it has nothing to do with your "line" or my thoughts of Mr. Tatum.  Just the claim of Tatum's supremacy in the kenpo realm.


----------



## Bode

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics.  No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting.  I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks.  I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.



KenpoDoc started by saying "my uneducated oppinion".... 

When you began in this thread your statements read as if you are making a factual statement. 

Two very different ways of presenting yourself, especially on a forum where you haven't established your character. It's as if you butted into a conversation at a party without introducing yourself and proceeded to make bold statements of fact. I personally don't care either way. I train. I have my teacher. That's it. But as a former foot in mouth person, I am trying to help you see why people jumped on your statements. Take it for what it's worth....


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.


 
This is just plain false by the way.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Bode said:
			
		

> KenpoDoc started by saying "my uneducated oppinion"....
> 
> When you began in this thread your statements read as if you are making a factual statement.
> 
> Two very different ways of presenting yourself, especially on a forum where you haven't established your character. It's as if you butted into a conversation at a party without introducing yourself and proceeded to make bold statements of fact. I personally don't care either way. I train. I have my teacher. That's it. But as a former foot in mouth person, I am trying to help you see why people jumped on your statements. Take it for what it's worth....


 
Good point, Bode.  I just hope the reply isn't something like "you're just saying that because you're one of Chapel's"


----------



## KenpoRonin

Seig said:
			
		

> Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "*MR.* "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing. I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde. Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.


 
type error Travel on not teach on.  Sorry


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Seig said:
			
		

> Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "*MR.* "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. *I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing.* I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, *your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde.* Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. *One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.*


 
Preach Brother. Amen.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Ray said:
			
		

> Hmmm. Funny you should bring up the "falling out." Maybe Mr. Parker changed his mind about Mr. Tatum?


 
I'm sure that he changed his mind about Tatum, I pretty sure though he didn't use his MIB mind erase tool and take away what he had taught him.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Actually if you just said "Tatum is ONE of the best" I'd wholeheartedly agree with you as well. All of the snide remarks and the "Tatum is THE greatest" stuff is the issue. Also posting the same article with 3 names repeatedly and disregarding...
> 
> 1) The "Big Fallout" between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum.
> 
> 2) The other two names on that list.
> 
> 3) the others named as proteges after Tatum's "leaving"
> 
> ....doesn't help your "argument"
> 
> No one is "combating" your argument it's dismantling itself by your own posted contraditions and leaving out "key" pieces of the history that refute your claim. Your opinon cannot be debated. But the partial facts you present and then alter with your subjective thoughts can. NO ONE'S opinion can be presented as fact, period.
> 
> Forgive me for "picking apart" your arguments. It's not personal, it's just what I do from working with/within Law Enforcement, Private Sector Security and Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences. Statements that A) contradict themselves, B) have "logical jumps" or "sequencial gaps" and C) are pure speculation stand out to me in my lines of work and areas of study.
> 
> My Ideas about Chapel are the following..
> 
> 1) Moves cleanly, 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have (it's been argued that NO others have)
> 
> My ideas about Tatum are as follows..
> 
> 1) Moves cleanly (it has been argued even cleaner than Mr. Parker), 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have.
> 
> Same ideas but with slight differences which is why I call them both SOME of the best.
> 
> P.S. Also as you highlighted youself the article mentions "children lost as successors" but Mr. Parker specfically used the word protege which has a much different meaning. A protege can become a successor but is not one. And there were again at least 3 at that given time who knows what happened in the next 11 years.
> 
> P.P.S. Two of my most respected martial artists are Mike Lambert and Lee Epperson whom I consider a great friend. Both are with LTKKA. In other words, it has nothing to do with your "line" or my thoughts of Mr. Tatum. Just the claim of Tatum's supremacy in the kenpo realm.


 
Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum.  I offer some evidence for my claim.  YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him.  I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned.  Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear.  People say the saw him around.  Where is your evidence?   

I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them.  They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I'm sure that he changed his mind about Tatum, I pretty sure though he didn't use his MIB mind erase tool and take away what he had taught him.


 
So is it the knowledge that Mr. Parker gave or is it what Mr. Parker thought that matters?

1) Mr. parker gave the same knowledge to alot of people (at least 3 if we stick with the article circa 1979).

2) Your main "hard evidence" to this point has been "Mr. Parker said this about Mr. Tatum! Mr. Parker said he was the successor! Mr. Parker said he was the Key Protege!" Now someone mentioned that Mr. Parker may have retracted those sentiments and you disregard it with the above quoted comment. That again negates much of what you've said already.  It's another circular, self-defeating statement.

Let's just leave it at "Mr. Hoff thinks that Mr. Tatum is the greatest Martial Artist alive".  No one can ever dispute solely what you think.  And if Mr. Hoff thought that Mr. Tatum was ONE of the greatest martial artists alive this whole board would "validate" your thoughts.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum. I offer some evidence for my claim. YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him. I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned. Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear. People say the saw him around. Where is your evidence?
> 
> I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them. They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.


 
My evidence?  look at Chapel's pictures in the infinite insights series (in which Mr. Parker was the author and chose who he wanted to include in his own instructional books) and then find Mr. Tatum's pictures there.

Next question?

P.S. I gather that you just don't like Mr. Chapel because no one has said ANYTHING negative about Mr. Tatum but you keep "questioning" Mr. Chapel.

I also noticed that you ignored the post where I said "you would get my vote" for being a good kenpoist because you train with Clyde.  Perhaps it wasn't convienent to admit I complimented you despite disagreeing with your viewpoints?


----------



## Kenpodoc

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum. I offer some evidence for my claim. YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him. I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned. Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear. People say the saw him around. Where is your evidence?
> 
> I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them. They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.


Both Ron Chapel and Tom Kelly were voted to be in the Journey but were not included for technical reasons. At least that is what Edmund Parker(jr) told me.

Jeff


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> So is it the knowledge that Mr. Parker gave or is it what Mr. Parker thought that matters?
> 
> 1) Mr. parker gave the same knowledge to alot of people (at least 3 if we stick with the article circa 1979).
> 
> 2) Your main "hard evidence" to this point has been "Mr. Parker said this about Mr. Tatum! Mr. Parker said he was the successor! Mr. Parker said he was the Key Protege!" Now someone mentioned that Mr. Parker may have retracted those sentiments and you disregard it with the above quoted comment. That again negates much of what you've said already. It's another circular, self-defeating statement.
> 
> Let's just leave it at "Mr. Hoff thinks that Mr. Tatum is the greatest Martial Artist alive". No one can ever dispute solely what you think. And if Mr. Hoff thought that Mr. Tatum was ONE of the greatest martial artists alive this whole board would "validate" your thoughts.


 
Spinning can be fun, so can sarcasm.  My claim has been that Tatum has more of the system than any other.  I have made other statements, some opinions based on facts others are the evidence that I used to come to conclusions.  I am not saying NO ONE ELSE HAS ANY INFORMATION.

If Harvard has the best business school in the country, that doesnt mean you cant go to North Western.  You still have bragging rights.  You just didnt graduate from The Best hell you could have gotten Cs at Harvard and another person got As at NW. Of course if you go to UCSB, you really have no right bragging where you went.  Or for that Matter UNLV.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I also noticed that you ignored the post where I said "you would get my vote" for being a good kenpoist because you train with Clyde. Perhaps it wasn't convienent to admit I complimented you despite disagreeing with your viewpoints?


 
Sorry, just when you constantly are being slam and given a token complament, you tend to ignore it or miss it.

Sincerly Thanks though


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Sorry, just when you constantly are being slam and given a token complament, you tend to ignore it or miss it.
> 
> Sincerly Thanks though


 
I'm honestly not slamming you.  Your argument is just flawed. That's it. no personal bias, no agendas, no ill-will.  You just are not presenting a logical argument and are contradicting yourself alot.  And I'm not the only one saying that.  It appears to be a rather general consensus unless what you said about the general public is truly what you believe(the part about them being idiots).

there's an old philosophy that goes "if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Alot of people on this board are telling you the same things I am, and most of them, save one, have never met me.

Food for thought.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Of course if you go to UCSB, you really have no right bragging where you went. Or for that Matter UNLV.


 
Yes, you do have bragging rights as the majority of the popualtion still does not possess a degree of any kind.  And a degree is an achievement which entails bragging rights.  But that's my opinon as there is no standard for bragging rights


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I'm honestly not slamming you. *Your argument is just flawed.* That's it. no personal bias, no agendas, no ill-will. You just are not presenting a logical argument and are contradicting yourself alot. And I'm not the only one saying that. It appears to be a rather general consensus unless what you said about the general public is truly what you believe(the part about them being idiots).
> 
> there's an old philosophy that goes "*if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true*" Alot of people on this board are telling you the same things I am, and most of them save one Have never met me.
> 
> Food for thought.


 
As is yours.  General consensus is often wrong. 
Abe Lincoln was an extremely unpopular president in his time, yet we know him to be one of the (not the) best Presidents we ever had.  WWII was very unpopular before we were attacked, but we went in because we were attacked, not because it was popular or the right thing to do.  Jesus was killed for blasphemy by a large number of people Stalin was a hero in the early twenties and thirties.  And yes I am saying that general public are idiots.  Your average IQ is 100.  That is not a good score to have. 87 is borderline retardation.

*"if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true"* Or they can all be wrong.  OJ had twelve let him off, Back Street Boys Sold millions of albums, and there are millions in Europe and the Middle East that think the USA is the great Satan.

As for people supporting arguements, I get private emails full of encouragement.  They just choose not to post and these people have never met me either.


----------



## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Yes, you do have bragging rights as the majority of the popualtion still does not possess a degree of any kind.  And a degree is an achievement which entails bragging rights.  But that's my opinon as there is no standard for bragging rights


Consider the sources. Clearly this is a case of 'troll by proxies,' and the only reason my name ws brought into it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I suggest you let them have it, but we also know where it comes from, so as I began with, "consider the source." Then you'll recognize it's all about pulling the chain, and making sense is clearly not the purpose. The only reason I responded initially is the intentional use of my name, and to place things in perspective. But if you understand the source, its all about discrediting, not crediting, nor the content. Letem' be please.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Doc said:
			
		

> Consider the sources. Clearly this is a case of 'troll by proxies,' and the only reason my name ws brought into it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I suggest you let them have it, but we also know where it comes from, so as I began with, "consider the source." Then you'll recognize it's all about pulling the chain, and making sense is clearly not the purpose. The only reason I responded initially is the intentional use of my name, and to place things in perspective. But if you understand the source, its all about discrediting, not crediting, nor the content. Letem' be please.


 
What are you talking about?  Your name was not mentioned here.  He was responding to me putting myself down for only getting a degree from UNLV.


----------



## hongkongfooey

Why did Larry Tatum and Ed Parker have a falling out? What was the reason?


----------



## Carol

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> None taken. I totally agree with what you said. Parker didn't want just one person to have the information, but he wanted loyal people to have the information.


Cool.



> There is then the question of who were the loyal people who also had enough time to spend with Parker on the mats. I am talking about hours of mat time. I know from personal experience that my growth has slowed because I chose instructor that is not in the same town as me.


 
That's a good question and one that I'm not well versed enough to answer.   Who would have had enough time to spend with Mr. Parker, along with how they learned/processed the information, and how much time was spent teaching his student new material they didn't know vs. taking what his student did know and refining it further, why the student was being taught what they were when they were.  



> There is something about spending time with your instructor on a daily basis as apposed to a few times a year


 
I'd say agreed...perhaps I should say I'll take your word for it.   That is one of the many challenges, is it not?  Migrating to where instead of maximizing your growth in regular class with lots of attention, you are trying to maximize your growth on your own.  It does not sound easy


----------



## KenpoRonin

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Why did Larry Tatum and Ed Parker have a falling out? What was the reason?


 
I have heard many rumours, but it usually has to do with Business.  I have heard many others.  I have heard about sexual misconduct, but that is usually from people who use it to discredit him. One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation.  Tatum would never make it as a rapper.


----------



## Carol

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Both Ron Chapel and Tom Kelly were voted to be in the Journey but were not included for technical reasons. At least that is what Edmund Parker(jr) told me.
> 
> Jeff


 
For what it's worth, I was told the same from Mr. Conatser.


----------



## Carol

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I have heard many rumours, but it usually has to do with Business. I have heard many others. I have heard about sexual misconduct, but that is usually from people who use it to discredit him. One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation. Tatum would never make it as a rapper.


 
Mr. Tatum was also getting to be well known in the Pasadena area among non-MA folks.  He was very active with the police department and at town meetings, etc.He was also getting to be well known within the MA community.  His close proximity to Mr. Parker (plus his knowledge) made him an easy pick for interviews.  His good looks probably did not hurt his popularity.  All stuff that really gets yer mojo working for breaking out with your own business...even if that was not the original intent.

Sometimes the chips fall the right way for good things to happen.


----------



## Ray

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> My claim has been that Tatum has more of the system than any other. I have made other statements, some opinions based on facts others are the evidence that I used to come to conclusions. I am not saying NO ONE ELSE HAS ANY INFORMATION.


I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.

You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Ray said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.
> 
> You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.


 
I am not sure that you're qualified to judge whether or not I am qualifed to judge....


----------



## evenflow1121

Mike they all are.  I mean so long as the student goes in and accomplishes his goals through the instructor.  All those guys are teaching the correct system, to say that the correct system lies in a 24 technique curriculum (which I studied) or the 16 which someone else may have in my opinion is erroneous.  The true system in my humble opinion lies in its mechanics and principles of motion.  You may study techniques your entire life, and may know how to execute each technique in a classroom setting blind folded, while standing on one foot and with one hand touching your nose. Still you may just get into a fight out in the real world and not be able to execute that one technique, because the setting is different, but hey your movements as you blocked the attack and struck your assailant were based on the principles of motion you studied as a kenpoist and guess what, you took his *** down.  So who is teaching the right system, all those guys they are all teaching it correctly, their approach may be different, but the basic principles are the same.


----------



## KenpoRonin

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> Mike they all are. I mean so long as the student goes in and accomplishes his goals through the instructor. All those guys are teaching the correct system, to say that the correct system lies in a 24 technique curriculum (which I studied) or the 16 which someone else may have in my opinion is erroneous. The true system in my humble opinion lies in its mechanics and principles of motion. You may study techniques your entire life, and may know how to execute each technique in a classroom setting blind folded, while standing on one foot and with one hand touching your nose. Still you may just get into a fight out in the real world and not be able to execute that one technique, because the setting is different, but hey your movements as you blocked the attack and struck your assailant were based on the principles of motion you studied as a kenpoist and guess what, you took his *** down. So who is teaching the right system, all those guys they are all teaching it correctly, their approach may be different, but the basic principles are the same.


 
I see all these instructors changing things.  They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques.  At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK?  If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt?  What if I change 20% of the techniques?  Am I still teaching the system?


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> As is yours. General consensus is often wrong.
> Abe Lincoln was an extremely unpopular president in his time, yet we know him to be one of the (not the) best Presidents we ever had. WWII was very unpopular before we were attacked, but we went in because we were attacked, not because it was popular or the right thing to do. Jesus was killed for blasphemy by a large number of people Stalin was a hero in the early twenties and thirties. And yes I am saying that general public are idiots. Your average IQ is 100. That is not a good score to have. 87 is borderline retardation.
> 
> "if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Or they can all be wrong. OJ had twelve let him off, Back Street Boys Sold millions of albums, and there are millions in Europe and the Middle East that think the USA is the great Satan.
> 
> As for people supporting arguements, *I get private emails full of encouragement. They just choose not to post and these people have never met me either.*


 
the "general consensus" was actually a device you used earlier when you said



			
				kenporonin said:
			
		

> Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have *generally accepted* answers.




which is why I used it.  So you disproved another one of your devices for argument. Bait, hook, throw it back.

I've you get PM's then these people also know how to give rep points so perhaps you're rep would be higher if that were the case.  My opinion is that the bolded statement may not be true but may be smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I see all these instructors changing things. They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques. At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK? If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt? What if I change 20% of the techniques? Am I still teaching the system?


 
I actually agree with you here, if you change too much it's no longer EPAK. But is it still efective? that's what really matters. Not, did Parker give it his stamp of approval.  I practice Ju Jitsu and the stuff works but Parker didn't have his hands on it.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I am not sure that you're qualified to judge whether or not I am qualifed to judge....


 
OK other than beeing a First Black from someone and then defecting to Clyde what are your qualifications?  What are your experieces with the other seniors that makes you think what you think about Tatum by comparison.  How much time have you spent on the mats with Planas, Palanzo, Mills, Chapel, Tom Kelly, Conatser, Tanaka, Cogliandro, Liles, Lerouz, Muhammed, Donnie Williams, Brian Hawkins, Velez, Sean Kelley, Speakman, Pick, Trejo, etc.

What are your experiences with any one from their camps.  You yourself said earlier that you've spent limited time with Tatum but alot of time with Clyde.  So you don't even have much first hand experience with Tatum self-admittedly unless you'd like to retract that statement too.


----------



## Doc

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I actually agree with you here, if you change too much it's no longer EPAK. But is it still efective? that's what really matters. Not, did Parker give it his stamp of approval.  I practice Ju Jitsu and the stuff works but Parker didn't have his hands on it.


Its important to remember James, that Parker only had ONE COMPLETED SYSTEM, and that was his conceptual commercial system based on motion. Everythng else was either defunct from his perspective, or a work in progress. Claims to teaching this 'system,' complete or not, is no claim to fame, considering its conceptual interpretive nature which allows and encourages personal interpretations and tailoring. Some will be good at it, and others, well ....


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation....


 
perhaps we might follow this example then if we choose him as our martial arts icon??

Just a thought.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> the "general consensus" was actually a device you used earlier when you said
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which is why I used it. So you disproved another one of your devices for argument. Bait, hook, throw it back.
> 
> I've you get PM's then these people also know how to give rep points so perhaps you're rep would be higher if that were the case. My opinion is that the bolded statement may not be true but may be smoke and mirrors.


 
I had already detracted that statement, based on the "idiot factor". What I should have said is generally accepted among those knowledgeable on such subjects.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:
			
		

> Its important to remember James, that Parker only had ONE COMPLETED SYSTEM, and that was his conceptual commercial system based on motion. Everythng else was either defunct from his perspective, or a work in progress. Claims to teaching this 'system,' complete or not, is no claim to fame, considering its conceptual interpretive nature which allows and encourages personal interpretations and tailoring. Some will be good at it, and others, well ....


 
Exactly Sir, which why I hang so little importance on what it's called when compared to if it works.  The things you showed me and explained to me work.  The things the Mills camp taught me work.  The things the Planas Camp taught me work.  The things the Tatum camp taught me work.  I'm ready to hang my hat up on this one.  By observing 1) that someone's every post is only on this topic and 2) all the snide remarks, 3) circle talk and 4) general lack of what should be common knowledge of kenpo history lets me know that there is an agenda here.  I've just been having too much fun taking recent posts and cross-referencing them with past posts that are the direct opposite.  And it amazes me that when I post nothing but the person's own words I get "nice spin on things" as an answer. Comical I tell ya.

P.S. Please tell Miguel that his "brothers" said hi.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> OK other than beeing a First Black from someone and then defecting to Clyde what are your qualifications? What are your experieces with the other seniors that makes you think what you think about Tatum by comparison. How much time have you spent on the mats with Planas, Palanzo, Mills, Chapel, Tom Kelly, Conatser, Tanaka, Cogliandro, Liles, Lerouz, Muhammed, Donnie Williams, Brian Hawkins, Velez, Sean Kelley, Speakman, Pick, Trejo, etc.
> 
> What are your experiences with any one from their camps. You yourself said earlier that you've spent limited time with Tatum but alot of time with Clyde. So you don't even have much first hand experience with Tatum self-admittedly unless you'd like to retract that statement too.


 
Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar,  Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined.  I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar, Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined. I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.


 
Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best.  That's my only point.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best. That's my only point.


 
Well Many of these people I have seen at camps, but they choose not to teach, so what can I say, if they choose not to teach, to share there knowledge, how can I consider them?  There are many others I didn't put, I forget all who I have seen, many are not very memorable.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best. That's my only point.


 
Ok wait I am going to completely change everything, I retract it all... I know I am going to get a lot of grief for this, but to be true to myself I am going to come forth.  Tatum is not the most knowledgeable man in Kenpo. It is this Man.http://www.arnis.org/home_study/home_study.htm

He has come up with no wait I will use his words...

These manuals - over 1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate. Every technique, from yellow belt to 3rd degree black belt, is described in detail. These manuals cover all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in each of the self defense techniques. A favorite for most American Kenpo Instructors - a must for all Kenpo libraries.

No wait there is more


This course is the first complete American Kenpo Home Study Course that available on the the world. This course is designed to be simple enough for beginners to learn from, but intense enough for instructors to enhance their learning. This is the course that so many have attempted to duplicate. This course is used by students and instructors throughout the world. This program teaches all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in all of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering all of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement. A 600 page manual is also included to act as a guide and workbook for the students. Students involved in this home study course get guidance, free rank testing and certification from the American Kenpo Legacy Association Headquarters.

How can you criticize me for touting Tatum when you claim to have the most authoritative system in the world!  Talk about a hypocrite!!


----------



## Doc

In the world of business, when someone is attempting to sell you something, this 'elogation of the facts' are subject to interpretation and are called 'puffery.' Such is the way of statements made in magazines and articles or even internet web sites for publicity, noteriety, and commercialism expressly with the intent to "sell something.' Words and phrases like; the greatest, biggest, best, fastest, longest lasting, most extensive, unequaled and yes even proteg&#233;, etc are banded about with no more assurance of absolute fact than any other saleman hawking goods. Mr. Parker was the ultimate martial arts salesman of the ultimate commercial martial arts system and others including, your personal martial arts savior have simply followed his lead. Some do however, with much more class than others. Some have nothing to sell at all. caveat emptor.


----------



## evenflow1121

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I see all these instructors changing things. They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques. At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK? If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt? What if I change 20% of the techniques? Am I still teaching the system?


 
If you are still teaching the mechanics and movements, the principles of Kenpo then I say yes.  Sure it may not be orthodox, and by that I mean it may not be what most of us are used to seeing today, but the principles would still be there.  I may be wrong and if I am I am sure people will correct me, and by this I dont mean that the techniques are less important, they are important, but in my opinion the foundation of kenpo is not the techniques, but the principles behind them.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Ok wait I am going to completely change everything, I retract it all... I know I am going to get a lot of grief for this, but to be true to myself I am going to come forth. Tatum is not the most knowledgeable man in Kenpo. It is this Man.http://www.arnis.org/home_study/home_study.htm
> 
> He has come up with no wait I will use his words...
> 
> These manuals - over 1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate. Every technique, from yellow belt to 3rd degree black belt, is described in detail. These manuals cover all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in each of the self defense techniques. A favorite for most American Kenpo Instructors - a must for all Kenpo libraries.
> 
> No wait there is more
> 
> 
> This course is the first complete American Kenpo Home Study Course that available on the the world. This course is designed to be simple enough for beginners to learn from, but intense enough for instructors to enhance their learning. This is the course that so many have attempted to duplicate. This course is used by students and instructors throughout the world. This program teaches all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in all of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering all of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement. A 600 page manual is also included to act as a guide and workbook for the students. Students involved in this home study course get guidance, free rank testing and certification from the American Kenpo Legacy Association Headquarters.
> 
> How can you criticize me for touting Tatum when you claim to have the most authoritative system in the world! Talk about a hypocrite!!


 
Uuuuuuuh you mean most authoritative "system *of learning*" as in "best instructional MATERIALS."  Duh...... it's an ad for a product, would you rather it said "second best on the market" or "ranked number 3 in it's category." It's supposed to sell something.  Did you sign up with Clyde because he said "come to LTKKA we're number two?" Have you come to this board proclaiming "Larry Tatum is 4th best on the planet".

Notice it says "program" and "course" and "manuals".  Not "best system of martial arts" or "best instructor" or "we move the best".  The ads imply "best products for learning kenpo" not "best people teaching or practicing kenpo".  There is a clear difference.

Also Kenpo isn't even the only system advertised on the site.  There are two more as well but you didn't mention that part.

Maybe you buy cars because JD Power and Associates ranked them as last in their class and the ads tell you this?  I doubt it.

As Clyde would say "Captain Obvious again". Duuuuuh!

Thanks for the free advertising though, and you even included a link how thoughtful!

From my associations site

"The American Kenpo Legacy Association has made available several Home Study Programs from which to study and obtain rank and certification. Our Home Study Programs allow you to obtain legitimate rank, recognized by other Kenpo Associations. *Nothing can replace studying directly under a competent instructor.* However, this is *the best Home Study Course available if you are unable to find a local Kenpo School.* *Our system is used by many School owners, association heads, students and instructors*. Check below for the program that is right for you:"

Notice no mention of *US*, just our product.


----------



## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Uuuuuuuh you mean most authoritative "system *of learning*" as in "best instructional MATERIALS."






			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> _1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate. _




_That doesnt sound like your pushing just a system of learning, That sounds like you are claiming to be the most authoritative on American Kenpo using writing as your medium._



			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Duh...... it's an ad for a product, would you rather it said "second best on the market" or "ranked number 3 in it's category." It's supposed to sell something.




No I would rather you just be honest.  If yours in not something you shouldnt make that claim.  It reminds me a lot of those fake diet pills tauting miracle results.  Why dont you just add that if you take this course, your hair will grow back, you will become taller and chicks will dig you.



			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Did you sign up with Clyde because he said "come to LTKKA we're number two?" Have you come to this board proclaiming "Larry Tatum is 4th best on the planet".




No they didnt have to sell me on their system, no words, they just showed me what they did and I knew that was what I wanted.




			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Notice it says "program" and "course" and "manuals". Not "best system of martial arts" or "best instructor" or "we move the best". The ads imply "best products for learning kenpo" not "best people teaching or practicing kenpo". There is a clear difference.






			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> _This program teaches *all *of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in *all* of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering *all* of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement._




_Yea sure it doesnt say those things, but it still makes some pretty bold statements._
_If your program does ALL that you say it does, I will never have to travel for a lesson again.  All there is to Kenpo in a nice little package._




			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Also Kenpo isn't even the only system advertised on the site. There are two more as well but you didn't mention that part.




I could care less about the other systems thats why.




			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Maybe you buy cars because JD Power and Associates ranked them as last in their class and the ads tell you this? I doubt it.




First of all JD Power doesnt sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product?  And if you say Chapel I will puke.  Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesnt Ron, there you go next big money maker.  I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$




			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> As Clyde would say "Captain Obvious again". Duuuuuh!




He may say that, but I am sure he wouldnt be saying it here.



			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the free advertising though, and you even included a link how thoughtful!




Hey no problem glad I could be of service.


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## Bode

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> First of all JD Power doesn&#8217;t sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product?  And if you say Chapel I will puke.  Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesn&#8217;t Ron, there you go next big money maker.  I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$



Now you're just being an *******. Chapel is not part of this conversation yet you insist on bring him back up and, of course, with negative overtones and connotations. I suppose that when you have no other recourse, backbiting is the fallback... backs up against the wall, keep pushing.


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## evenflow1121

Not that I would ever have to speak for the man, but time and time again on this forum, Mr. Chapel has stated that he is not a fan of video training. Bringing Mr. Chapel into this conversation the way you are is in bad taste.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> .....First of all JD Power doesn&#8217;t sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product? And if you say Chapel I will puke. Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesn&#8217;t Ron, there you go next big money maker. I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$....


 
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. The usual, no intelligent rebutal available so you fall back to insults, even stooping so low as to pull someone in that wasn't even involved :rofl: . Ah well how trite. Since you're so fond of Mr. Tatum and use what Mr. Parker said as the crutch here are a few more Mr. Parker favorites.

"_Those who criticize are usually covering up their own incompetence."_

_"When one knows his subject, fear of verbally answering is not a problem."_

_"Unsubstantiated judgment of others can lead to paths of sorrow."_

_"Jerks are those who display qualities of insecurity."_

_"Use logic and common sense at all times."_

_"All men, no matter who they are or how much they know, can share their knowledge with others."_

_"A "winner" compliments others. A "loser" condemns."_

_"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all."_

_-- Ed Parker Zen of Kenpo_

Alas, this is old I'll not support you sullying Mr. Tatum's name any further with your lack of class while representing him.  My involvement in this thread is over.

:feedtroll


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## KenpoRonin

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> Not that I would ever have to speak for the man, but time and time again on this forum, Mr. Chapel has stated that he is not a fan of video training. Bringing Mr. Chapel into this conversation the way you are is in bad taste.


 
If that is the case I offer a sincere apology to you, Mr. Chapel.  Actually my intent was to keep you out of the argument, by bringing you up.  If your opinion is as this person claims, then we are in agreement. Sorry.


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## KenpoRonin

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. The usual, no intelligent rebutal available so you fall back to insults, even stooping so low as to pull someone in that wasn't even involved :rofl: . Ah well how trite. Since you're so fond of Mr. Tatum and use what Mr. Parker said as the crutch here are a few more Mr. Parker favorites.
> 
> "_Those who criticize are usually covering up their own incompetence."_
> 
> _"When one knows his subject, fear of verbally answering is not a problem."_
> 
> _"Unsubstantiated judgment of others can lead to paths of sorrow."_
> 
> _"Jerks are those who display qualities of insecurity."_
> 
> _"Use logic and common sense at all times."_
> 
> _"All men, no matter who they are or how much they know, can share their knowledge with others."_
> 
> _"A "winner" compliments others. A "loser" condemns."_
> 
> _"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all."_
> 
> _-- Ed Parker Zen of Kenpo_
> 
> Alas, this is old I'll not support you sullying Mr. Tatum's name any further with your lack of class while representing him. My involvement in this thread is over.
> 
> :feedtroll


 
As for you , when you have no point you go right back to the respect issue.  I shouldn't expect any more of an arguement from you, I don't know why I bother with you.

I guess I consider it practice for when I get married.  I need to be able to argue against anything.


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## Kenpodoc

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.


Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive.  I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him.  You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?

Jeff


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## KenpoRonin

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive. I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him. You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?
> 
> Jeff


 
Yes I do and yes he is.  I have also shared the mats with his students and more importly he can also teach what he does.  That is why I said he is on my short list.


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## hongkongfooey

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive. I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him. You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?
> 
> Jeff


 
Isn't Mr. Chavies a product of Doc?


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## hongkongfooey

Bode said:
			
		

> Now you're just being an a*&hole. Chapel is not part of this conversation yet you insist on bring him back up and, of course, with negative overtones and connotations. I suppose that when you have no other recourse, backbiting is the fallback... backs up against the wall, keep pushing.


 

Doc was a constant target of Clyde and Robert when they were here. They mainly hounded him about his degrees. This type of nonsense(personal attacks) is the main reason so many seniors no longer post over @ KN.


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## John Bishop

*Moderators Note: * 
This thread is again starting to get off topic, and going back to personal attacks or name calling.   
So that we do not have to lock this thread, or be forced to suspend any members, I'm going to make one simple request.

*If you disagree with anything in this thread, attack the statement or argument, not the person making it.  

*Myself, and I think many of the other members would like to read what it is about a certain senior that makes them stand out in your mind as a good teacher, technician, and demonstrator.  Instead of reading who was in or out, or who got the "whole" system.  A few mpegs of the seniors performing would also go a long way in showing "who moves"  well.


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## Kenpodoc

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Isn't Mr. Chavies a product of Doc?


Yup.


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## Flying Crane

Clearly there will be no agreement here.  Instead of rehashing the same arguments over and over, maybe someone who has been heavily involved in this thread could extend an Olive Branch, offer to Agree to Disagree, and everyone could move on with their lives...


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## KenpoDave

> Snippet: Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"
> 
> Quote:
> "A lot of kenpo instructors are searching," he said. "I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I haven't stuck to tradition. When you stick to tradition, you're bound. You're bound to see only what is in that realm of knowl- edge."
> 
> It is just this rejection of tradition that has led the kenpoist to the second secret of his system, a concept based on the age-old premise that the end justifies the means.
> 
> "When I teach, I want effects," Parker said. "If a punch comes, if you block it and you look lazy, as long as you block it, that's alii care about. *I don't give a damn about going down with beautiful form.*
> 
> "I was talking like this twenty years ago when I was a no-good-for-nothing rebel. I'm a street fighter. I'm a realist. I've seen guys go into a fight and bite {the other) guy's nose off. And knowing that his nose is gone, he still hits! He's an animal.



Hmm, I don't read this as him not giving a damn about beautiful form, but rather that practicality comes first.  As always, form follows function.

We could get into a debate over what "form" actually is, though.  Personally, I consider good form to be correct form.  So, if the form is bad, the movement is not correct.  Now, you may still accomplish your goal of the moment of winning the fight.  But fighting is often all about adrenaline and mental attitude.  Kenpo is about more than that, isn't it?


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## Ray

Systems are created for certain reasons.  A simple example is the "closed loop feedback" system for central air/heating systems (thermostats).  A classic and more complex system is described in "My System" by Aaron Nimzovich (it's a treatise on chess).  It is not so much the system that is the holy grail, it is more of what we want our system to do for us that is the reason for of the system.

Upon this general framework called kenpo, we can build skyscrapers or oil rigs.  And each has it's place.  If we are architects of better ways to do our kenpo, then it is foolish to ignore what any senior has to offer.

One senior does his kenpo this way and another that way...learn as many as you can.

Here's a dumb story that has no bearing on this subject at all:  When you want to bolt something to a concrete floor (wall or masonary), there are several ways to do it; one way is an anchor bolt (hilti or ramset).  to use these anchor bolts, you drill a hole and then pound the bolt into it...when you tighten the nut, it grips and doesn't come out.  Most places I've been, when the bolts are no longer needed, they are sawed off close to the ground with a hacksaw...one old-timer maintenance guy at a particular place said "drill the holes longer than needed"...later, when the bolts weren't needed, he took the nuts off and hit the top of the bolt once with a sledge hammer---the bolt went in and was flush with the floor.  Wow, no stubby little thing sticking up out of the floor.  Boy, it's nice to have more than one way to take care of that problem.  There's other ways besides anchor bolts to affix something to concrete (or masonary), it's just a matter of which one works for what you want.


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## KenpoRonin

Ray said:
			
		

> Systems are created for certain reasons. A simple example is the "closed loop feedback" system for central air/heating systems (thermostats). A classic and more complex system is described in "My System" by Aaron Nimzovich (it's a treatise on chess). It is not so much the system that is the holy grail, it is more of what we want our system to do for us that is the reason for of the system.
> 
> Upon this general framework called kenpo, we can build skyscrapers or oil rigs. And each has it's place. If we are architects of better ways to do our kenpo, then it is foolish to ignore what any senior has to offer.
> 
> One senior does his kenpo this way and another that way...learn as many as you can.
> 
> Here's a dumb story that has no bearing on this subject at all: When you want to bolt something to a concrete floor (wall or masonary), there are several ways to do it; one way is an anchor bolt (hilti or ramset). to use these anchor bolts, you drill a hole and then pound the bolt into it...when you tighten the nut, it grips and doesn't come out. Most places I've been, when the bolts are no longer needed, they are sawed off close to the ground with a hacksaw...one old-timer maintenance guy at a particular place said "drill the holes longer than needed"...later, when the bolts weren't needed, he took the nuts off and hit the top of the bolt once with a sledge hammer---the bolt went in and was flush with the floor. Wow, no stubby little thing sticking up out of the floor. Boy, it's nice to have more than one way to take care of that problem. There's other ways besides anchor bolts to affix something to concrete (or masonary), it's just a matter of which one works for what you want.


 
On a similar not I have a student who sell industrial pipe fittings.  These new pipe fitters, connecters, and joints, called grooved locks allow pipes to be attached quicker and faster than traditional welding. It cuts the time down to work on section to about a fifth of the time.  They are just as effective, as welding but they are quicker, easier to use and speed up the process of getting a building built faster.

So while there are many effective ways to do something there are also better ways to do something.  There are also ways you shouldn&#8217;t do things.


&#8230;And I want to apologize in advanced if I offended any welders.  I know how sensitive people can be on this board.  I still think being a welder is a fine occupation.


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## MJS

KenpoRonin said:
			
		

> Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar, Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined. I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.


 
While seminars are a great source to learn from, I'd think that having spent more time with a given person, we'd be able to get a better feel for what they have to offer.  I've talked with Clyde many times, asking questions about the various 'top guys' out there, and while he himself has said that Larry has spent the most time, he's also encouraged me to check these other people out and form my own opinion.  The few that I have had the chance to see at seminars, again really didn't give me a ton of time to judge how much they really know.  

IMO, what alot of it comes down to, is loyalty.  A student, if they really like training under their inst. is going to defend them to the bitter end.  Regardless of what anyone may think, IMO, I personally feel that everyone is going to have something to offer.  

I really don't think that we'll ever come to the conclusion as to who is teaching the 'right' way.  I will say though, that the people out there that are training with Doc, Palanzo, Planas, Mills, and the rest, are obviously happy with the training that they're getting.  If they weren't I'd think that they'd be looking for another source.

Mike


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## green meanie

I think that unless someone can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that someone is teaching the _wrong way_ then I have no reason not to believe that _ALL_ of these individuals who had the great honor and priviledge to train with GM Parker are all teaching the _right way_. :asian:


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## kenpohack

Ray said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.
> 
> You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.



Anyone with half a brain and vision correctable to 20/20 can judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel...They're all obviously very talented kenpoists. I'm hard pressed to say anything bad about any of them. They all also have distinctly different styles and modes of movement. I believe Brian and I are on the same wavelength when we say that Tatum seems to move closest to Ed Parker. That doesn't mean that any other senior is not skilled. It just means that Tatum is likely to have spent the most time on the mats with Parker considering his close proximity to Mr. Parker. None of the other seniors lived close enough to Mr. Parker to train with him as much as Mr. Tatum (maybe with the exception of Mr. Chapel, I only say that because I don't know where he hails from). All the aforementioned seniors are clearly masters of kenpo. I just believe that Mr. Tatum moves the closest to Mr. Parker and teaches an unaltered version of the system. Remember, this is alot like comparing a Corvette, a Viper and a GT40: I would drive any one of them in a heartbeat, despite having a preference.


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## kenpohack

Judge for yourselves if Mr. Tatum has all of Mr. Parker's speed, power, technical expertise, and depth of knowledge. 

http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeek.html

There are 40 videos to reference on this site. Maybe you're right. Maybe a blue belt and a First Black just lack the qualifications to judge Mr. Tatum's skill (despite having a combined IQ well over 300). That's ok. Since everyone else on the forum has so much more experience, go ahead and critique Mr. Tatum. Give us your take on what he does. Pull no punches, I'm sure he can take it. He's not sensitive enough to be a part of this forum. He doesn't cry when someone offers an opinion that he doesn't like. By the way, if you need tissue, Walgreens is open 24 hours. Don't forget the Vagisil, it helps in those sensitive moments.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

kenpohack said:
			
		

> Anyone with half a brain and vision correctable to 20/20 can judge *between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel...They're all obviously very talented kenpoists. I'm hard pressed to say anything bad about any of them.* They all also have distinctly different styles and modes of movement. I believe Brian and I are on the same wavelength when we say that Tatum seems to move closest to Ed Parker. *That doesn't mean that any other senior is not skilled.* It just means that Tatum is likely to have spent the most time on the mats with Parker considering his close proximity to Mr. Parker. None of the other seniors lived close enough to Mr. Parker to train with him as much as Mr. Tatum (maybe with the exception of Mr. Chapel, I only say that because I don't know where he hails from). *All the aforementioned seniors are clearly masters of kenpo. I just believe that Mr. Tatum moves the closest to Mr. Parker and teaches an unaltered version of the system. Remember, this is alot like comparing a Corvette, a Viper and a GT40: I would drive any one of them in a heartbeat, despite having a preference.*


 
I was leaving this thread alone until I saw this very sensible post. Not sure about the proximity viewpoint as I don't have the "official" record of how much time Mr. Parker actually spent in California during the said time period as opposed to his worldwide travels. But the viewpoints on how to compare the seniors (in bold) I couldn't have said better myself. All are excellent though some people have a personal preference for one over the other. I can respect that greatly.

Full Salute! :asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3

kenpohack said:
			
		

> Judge for yourselves if Mr. Tatum has all of Mr. Parker's speed, power, technical expertise, and depth of knowledge.
> 
> http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeek.html
> 
> There are 40 videos to reference on this site. Maybe you're right. Maybe a blue belt and a First Black just lack the qualifications to judge Mr. Tatum's skill (despite having a combined IQ well over 300). That's ok. Since everyone else on the forum has so much more experience, go ahead and critique Mr. Tatum. Give us your take on what he does. Pull no punches, I'm sure he can take it. He's not sensitive enough to be a part of this forum. He doesn't cry when someone offers an opinion that he doesn't like. By the way, if you need tissue, Walgreens is open 24 hours. Don't forget the Vagisil, it helps in those sensitive moments.


 
So you are both geniuses (the official term for a score that high) with IQ's over the 150 mark? If that is true I am impressed to say the least as IQ scores in that range are VERY RARE (about 0.25% of the poulation).  It also begs the question why someone with such a high intelligence quotient would state that 40 video clips (although all 40 aren't available on the site as about 5 or so were lost on a server a while back if my memory serves me correctly) that amount to just over an hour of video would be an accurate barometer of the depth of someone's knowledge in a field they've studied for over 30 years.  Personally, I'd be insulted if one hour of video even scratched the depth of my knowledge or technical expertise in an area I'm considered to be skilled in.  

My critique of Mr. Tatum (My opinions):
--Moves well, possibly even more fluid than the videos I have of Mr. Parker, very explosive, very fast.
--Has an intimate knowledge of the kenpo system, does pack alot of info in a short clip, even mixes things up from the ideal on a few clips.
--The kenpo ground technique clip is questionable, it is applicable and the concepts are sound, but that particular application is highly unlikely for two reasons. 1) the way the person is "mounted" shows a lack of knowledge and skill which decreases the likelihood of them getting to that position and 2) if the person is skilled enough to get a trained kenpoist to that postion, they are most probably not going to mount in such an unstable fashion.
--Does Mr. Tatum's signature "reverb" count as wasted motion?  I haven't seen enough to know if he does that all the time or if it's just flash for the camera.
--Some moves are different from those of seniors who "predate" Mr. Tatum and seniors who came later, this brings to question "were the moves changed by Mr. Parker and then taught to Mr. Tatum or did Mr. Tatum change them himself?"  Everyone has a different view on this and Mr. Tatum may be the only person who has THE answer other than the senior who taught him through 1st brown.  

Off Topic: With IQ scores that high people are generally given notice of "areas of concentration" for the types of intelligence they excel in which gives them such a high score.  What are the types of intelligence that you have a concentration in?  I have a high IQ score as well and would like to compare notes.

Disclaimer: There is no intended sarcasm in this post.  All questions are genuine and all stated opinions are just that, my opinon.


----------



## MJS

kenpohack said:
			
		

> Anyone with half a brain and vision correctable to 20/20 can judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel...They're all obviously very talented kenpoists. I'm hard pressed to say anything bad about any of them. They all also have distinctly different styles and modes of movement. I believe Brian and I are on the same wavelength when we say that Tatum seems to move closest to Ed Parker. That doesn't mean that any other senior is not skilled. It just means that Tatum is likely to have spent the most time on the mats with Parker considering his close proximity to Mr. Parker. None of the other seniors lived close enough to Mr. Parker to train with him as much as Mr. Tatum (maybe with the exception of Mr. Chapel, I only say that because I don't know where he hails from). All the aforementioned seniors are clearly masters of kenpo. I just believe that Mr. Tatum moves the closest to Mr. Parker and *teaches an unaltered version of the system.* Remember, this is alot like comparing a Corvette, a Viper and a GT40: I would drive any one of them in a heartbeat, despite having a preference.


 
As I've said, my knowledge of how others move is limited compared to others on here.  That being said, could you expand on this comment a bit?  How much 'altering' would you say Palanzo, LaBounty, Planas, etc. have done?  I'm sure that everyone has made slight changes due to body size, reach, etc., but not necessarily changing the moves in a technique.

Mike


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## MJS

Thread closed pending review.

MJS
MT Supermod


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## Lisa

*Moderator Note:

The rules & policies of MartialTalk are in place to ensure we maintain a FRIENDLY discussion of the Martial Arts. The recent posts in this thread have shown a disregard, if not for just the specific rules, then to the intent of the MartialTalk community. For these reasons this thread shall remain locked.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator*


----------

