# Police Pursuits



## MJS (Oct 10, 2007)

Recently here in CT., there was a police pursuit of a stolen M/V. The driver, a 16 yo female, had stolen the vehicle in Wethersfield. The officer chased the car into Newington and broke it off, just over the New Britian line. Shortly thereafter, the car crashed into a tree and caught on fire, resulting in the death of the driver. According to the Chief of Police in Wethersfield, he stated:



> James Cetran, Wethersfield's police chief, said the officer followed the department's policy on pursuits when he backed off the chase in New Britain after realizing it had gone on too long and far.
> 
> "We have a specific policy on pursuits, and from what I can see, the officer followed the policy to a T," Cetran said.


 
Of course, as always, the family puts the blame on the police, rather than asking why this girl stole the car in the first place. Her Grandmother states:



> "Why did the cops have to make her go fast? Why did he keep chasing her?" Gervais said.


 
Here is the link to the news paper story. Here is the link to the pursuit policy for the state. 

Now, as always, none of us were there, so the best we can go off of is what has been reported. Also keep in mind that each state will have a policy that varies from one to the next. Keep in mind that each dept. in the state of CT. may slightly vary the policy, as long as it does not conflict with whats already stated. This is stated in the policy. In addition, regardless of what the policy states, the on-duty supervisor reserves the right to terminate the pursuit even if the guidelines are being followed. 

So, my question is this: What are your thoughts on police pursuits? Should they be modified? Should they be done away with all together, except under certain circumstances?


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## terryl965 (Oct 10, 2007)

The police really have no ideal who is behind that stolen car and for what reason. For all they know this person could have killed someone and stole the vehicle to get away. To many unknown for the officer to know. All the police can do is there jobs to the best of there abilities.
This is my thought anyway.


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

MJS said:


> So, my question is this: What are your thoughts on police pursuits? Should they be modified? Should they be done away with all together, except under certain circumstances?


 
Speaking ONLY for myself..Both of the departments I work for have *VERY STRICT* pursuit policys, in some cases an OIC will tell officers to break off the pursuit rather than endanger the public..The roll out spikes have been a big help in preventing fatalities and should be standard issue in EVERY cruiser..*NO,* I am against banning prusuit policies..That's ALL the crminals need to learn is that cops will no longer chase them...


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## CoryKS (Oct 10, 2007)

> "Why did the cops have to make her go fast? Why did he keep chasing her?" Gervais said.


 
Hey grandma, she didn't have to go fast.  She could have stopped and been taken to jail.  Which would suck, but not as badly as dying in a fire.

I wonder who "made" her steal the car in the first place?


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> I wonder who "made" her steal the car in the first place?


 
A good question...and WHY didn't she stop when the cops fired up the lights and siren????


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2007)

Drac said:


> Speaking ONLY for myself..Both of the departments I work for have *VERY STRICT* pursuit policys, in some cases an OIC will tell officers to break off the pursuit rather than endanger the public..The roll out spikes have been a big help in preventing fatalities and should be standard issue in EVERY cruiser..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

*Criminals thrive on the indulgences of society..*I chased a mini van  once that almost collided with my vehicle..This woman went 75mph up a residental street mindless of the kids playing in the area, a total lack of reguard for public safety...I activated my lights and siren and chased..According to policy I have to slow down at every intersection and red light to insure the is no cross traffic..


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Hey grandma, she didn't have to go fast. She could have stopped and been taken to jail. Which would suck, but not as badly as dying in a fire.
> 
> I wonder who "made" her steal the car in the first place?


 


Drac said:


> A good question...and WHY didn't she stop when the cops fired up the lights and siren????


 
I was asking myself the same thing when I read the article this morning.  So, she shoplifted 2 weeks ago and was afraid of going to jail.  So....her stealing a car is helping her how Gram?  I mean really, I'm no expert on law, but I'm sure the most that would've happened on the shoplifting charge would possibly be a fine, community service or chances are, it'd get thrown out.  I've seen worse things get nollied in court.


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

MJS said:


> I've seen worse things get nollied in court.


 
Same here..At least the woman I chased had no privledges, borrowed the van, the passenger in the front had a warrant and the juvie in the back was on probation...


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2007)

Drac said:


> Same here..At least the woman I chased had no privledges, borrowed the van, the passenger in the front had a warrant and the juvie in the back was on probation...


 
Gotta love it when you not only get the original bad guy, but bonus ones!!!  :ultracool


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## Ray (Oct 10, 2007)

Fleeing in a vehicle should be a felony punishable by many years in prison (or execution).

Having had to chase a few shoplifters I now believe that fleeing on foot should be subject to: "If you run, you get lumps."


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## Big Don (Oct 10, 2007)

Oooh! Good timing. The other night I wondered about using spike strips against a fleeing motorcylcist. Any of you LEO's know about that? From my layman's view, it seems like at almost any speed, using spike strips against a motorcyclist would be a sure way to have a hospitalized suspect.


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

Big Don said:


> Oooh! Good timing. The other night I wondered about using spike strips against a fleeing motorcylcist. Any of you LEO's know about that? From my layman's view, it seems like at almost any speed, using spike strips against a motorcyclist would be a sure way to have a hospitalized suspect.


 
They are NOT used on motorcycles...


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

MJS said:


> Gotta love it when you not only get the original bad guy, but bonus ones!!! :ultracool


 
Plus it took them 3 hrs to inventory all the stolen merchandise in the back of the van..


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2007)

Ray said:


> Fleeing in a vehicle should be a felony punishable by many years in prison (or execution).
> 
> Having had to chase a few shoplifters I now believe that fleeing on foot should be subject to: "If you run, you get lumps."


 
To quote that Chris Rock video, "How To Not Get Your *** Kicked By The Police!"....If the police have to come and get you, they're bringing an *** kicking with them!  ***Caution- Adult Language****


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2007)

Oh guys.  You LEOs, I really hope you know how much I respect the work you do and that I don't envy you your jobs at all.

*sigh*

I grew up in So Cal where almost every month (sometimes more often) there was a high-speed chase and it go to the point where the officers would get close enough to pull off a shot to the head or upper torso of the offending driver and do so ending the chase and oftentimes the driver's life.  I remember being appalled at the idea since in most cases the person was being pulled over for a moving violation and were not under suspicion of any felony per se.  And I still squirm at remembering this.

But I have to admit I also squirm at remembering the strollers, eldlerly, innocent bystanders who were struck by these idiots doing 100+ on the grid.

Loss of any life in pursuit is never great for anybody in my opinion.  But what in the world can the police do when the suspect is careening out of control into a tree or lamp post?  Throw their own vehicle in front?

Spike strips are a great idea if you can get ahead of the driver but that's not always possible and I've seen video of people driving on bare rims before as well.

I don't know that there's anything better to use than a remote-controlled kill switch on the vehicle to force it to stop in a safer fashion and I wonder if our society would pass legislation on mandatory installation in every vehicle?


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## CoryKS (Oct 10, 2007)

MJS said:


> I was asking myself the same thing when I read the article this morning. So, she shoplifted 2 weeks ago and was afraid of going to jail. So....her stealing a car is helping her how Gram? I mean really, I'm no expert on law, but I'm sure the most that would've happened on the shoplifting charge would possibly be a fine, community service or chances are, it'd get thrown out. I've seen worse things get nollied in court.


 
I see police chases on tv all the time where they finally pull the guy over and it turns out he ran because he had unpaid parking tickets or something.  Dude, you're going to PMITA prison over parking tickets!


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> I don't know that there's anything better to use than a remote-controlled kill switch on the vehicle to force it to stop in a safer fashion and I wonder if our society would pass legislation on mandatory installation in every vehicle?


 
I don't see that happening...Too many concerns about becoming a Police Run state..


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2007)

Drac said:


> I don't see that happening...Too many concerns about becoming a Police Run state..


I concur.

So, other than people just not running (I doubt you'll ever change that), what would you LEOs like to see change?  Are there other tools out there you can use?


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> I concur.
> 
> So, other than people just not running (I doubt you'll ever change that), what would you LEOs like to see change? Are there other tools out there you can use?


 
Aside from STRONGER penalties for those that do, even the first time offenders I cannot think of anything else that could not be perverted into a tool by criminals ...


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> I concur.
> 
> So, other than people just not running (I doubt you'll ever change that), what would you LEOs like to see change? Are there other tools out there you can use?


 
There is always this.  Not sure of the success rate of it though.


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

I've heard the old timers talk about it...One wrong tap and the car spins outta control..


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2007)

Drac said:


> I've heard the old timers talk about it...One wrong tap and the car spins outta control..


 
Looks like its only suggested at low speeds.



> The PIT is not applicable in every situation. Typical police policy is not to attempt the PIT at greater than 35 miles per hour (55 kilometers per hour).


 
Additionally, you're also risking alot of damage to the cruiser.  I don't recall ever hearing about it being used in CT.  I'm guessing the spikes are the main thing thats used.


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is always this.  Not sure of the success rate of it though.


I've seen videos of this technique used to successfully halt the vehicle without damage and in some cases minimal damage to the driver, officer, surrounding scene.  I notice in the link it does state that the PIT technique is not recommended at speeds in excess of 35mph nor for vans, mini-vans, SUVs, etc.  It's a great technique, but what about those high-speed chases?


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## Eric Deveau (Oct 10, 2007)

I replied to part of the thread so if it double posts my apologies
Chris Rock's PSA if the cops have to chase you they're bringing an *** whuppin along sums it up "We call it contempt of Cop" 
Make me work like that for your stupidity it could happen
It is unfortunate that in this litiguous society it never comes back to the idiot factor it is the "training factor" Why did the cops oh sorry "Police Officers" do it that way "ARE THEY NOT TRAINED TO DO IT ANOTHER WAY"
Training don't get me started 
oops to late ;-)


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## Drac (Oct 10, 2007)

Eric Deveau said:


> Chris Rock's PSA if the cops have to chase you they're bringing an *** whuppin along sums it up


 
Excellent and so true..


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## Kreth (Oct 10, 2007)

We had a pursuit here where the driver was doing 80 + *within the city limits*. The cops got his plate, then backed off and arrested him the next day.


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## redfang (Oct 10, 2007)

Department I work for, we are authorized to use the PIT manuever at our discretion. We are trained in it and get retrainings periodically. As we train it, we do not attempt it at speeds greater than 45 mph and do not do it in an area where causing the suspect vehicle to spin out will be likely to cause injury to bystanders. It has a great success rate when done right. It is not difficult and it is NOT just smashing into the other car. It reminds me of judo or aikido in that you blend with the other car to a degree then just nudge it in the rear panel and send it in the direction of the PIT. In training before actually using the PIT, we practices doing touch and go's with the rabbit car. We also practice having trail cars cover the suspect car after it spins. I have not had a need to use it in the field, but as a department, almost every time an officer has judged it appropriate, it has worked well. Doesn't do much damage to either car if done right.

Other things we use in chases are stop sticks, though not every car, maybe two or three to a squad, has them. Moving road blocks with three cars. Most of our practice is with three cars, as our policy allows up to three units on a pursuit. 

We actually had an incident just like the one described about a month ago. Guy on a stolen motorcycle. Officer attempted to stop for speed. Guy runs. It is late at night so he chases for awhile. As they get close to the city lines, officer decides to break off pursuit (Or a supervisor might have nixed it, don't recall.) Suspect, still traveling at high rate of speed, encounters SHP and county units working a wreck just down the road and loses control of the bike. The suspect comes off and hits the pavement, the bike keeps going and hits a fireman on scene. Fireman goes to the hospital but is not too bad off. In our case, suspect lived, and after a trip to the hospital, went to jail.


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## jks9199 (Oct 10, 2007)

First -- I think that Justice Scalia covered why police need to pursue pretty well:


> we are loath to lay down a rule requiring the police to allow fleeing suspects to get away whenever they drive so recklessly that they put other people&#8217;s lives in danger. It is obvious the perverse incentives such a rule would create: Every fleeing motorist would know thatescape is within his grasp, if only he accelerates to 90miles per hour, crosses the double-yellow line a few times,and runs a few red lights. The Constitution assuredlydoes not impose this invitation to impunity-earned-by-recklessness. Instead, we lay down a more sensible rule: A police officer&#8217;s attempt to terminate a dangerous high-speed car chase that threatens the lives of innocent by-standers does not violate the Fourth Amendment, even when it places the fleeing motorist at risk of serious injuryor death.


 Scott v Harris, 550 U.S. ____  

Or, to paraphrase the Bible: The guilty flee even when no one is chasing.

Police officers and their supervisors must judge whether or not a particular pursuit is warranted in light of the risk to the public of the pursuit versus the risk to the public of either permitting criminal behavior generally to go unpunished, or letting a particular offender get away.  It's not easy.  It's generally done in the heat of the moment.  But pursuits are necessary, and the best people to judge the risks are the ones on or close to the scene.  Like any use of force, it's not as pretty as the movies.

Second -- regarding the PIT, under it's various definitions (Pursuit Intervention Technique, Precision Immobilization Technique, and others), it's the same thing.  It's a controlled impact on the fleeing vehicle in such a way as to deprive the driver of control of the car.  Done at appropriate speeds, by reasonably trained drivers, it does almost no damage to either vehicle, is very predictable, and carries a very low risk of injury to the fleeing car.  I know of at least one incident where the same driver was PITted repeatedly because they simple gathered their wits, and drove off in the new direction!  The technique can be learned by a decent & trained driver in a very short time.  And it's actually pretty fun... on the track!  (I actually like going on the ride more than doing the PIT!)  But it's not something that's right in every case.  You can't PIT a motorcycle, for instance.  Stop sticks/spike strips are also great, in their place.  But they don't stop a car; they only encourage the driver to stop themselves by deflating the tires in a controlled manner.  There is no simple solution; even if we had a magic kill switch installed in every car -- it'd have to enable a controlled stop.  Few people today realize how much they rely on power steering and power breaks -- at least until they lose them unexpectedly!


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