# Form seven!!!



## hammer (May 21, 2005)

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on form 7 and a few related questions. Thanking you in advance for your response.

When do you think it is appropriate to introduce club,arnis/ kali training to the students? And what type of skills, double or single stick? Curious!

For those fellow Kenpoist, that have studied any of the FMA systems what are your thoughts on the form?

Understanding that every think has a natural order of progression why is form7 "form7"? (And yes I know it comes after 6 and before 8 lol)

Could any one share the history of form 7 I have heard a few different views on the subject.

Looking forward to hearing your responses



Cheers


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## kenpoworks (May 21, 2005)

My thoughts....
I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on form 7 and a few related questions. Thanking you in advance for your response.

When do you think it is appropriate to introduce club,arnis/ kali training to the students? And what type of skills, double or single stick? Curious!...................
arnis/ kali , have a different approach to club work than kenpo. Start with a single club (stick) at white belt.

For those fellow Kenpoist, that have studied any of the FMA systems what are your thoughts on the form?............................
Kenpo's form 7 is not based on FMA or is it close to their outlook, so it can't be compared. Those who study Escrima/Kenpo seem to put it down, because it does'nt fall into Phillipino way.

Understanding that every think has a natural order of progression why is form7 "form7"? (And yes I know it comes after 6 and before 8 lol).............
..........6 is a defense against weapons and 7 is the use of a weapon/s.

Could any one share the history of form 7 I have heard a few different views on the subject.
QUICKSAND, those that said they know ....seem to move on very "quickly"

Looking forward to hearing your responses


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## Seabrook (May 24, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on form 7 and a few related questions. Thanking you in advance for your response.
> 
> When do you think it is appropriate to introduce club,arnis/ kali training to the students? And what type of skills, double or single stick? Curious!
> 
> ...


I just taught Long Form 7 in a advanced seminar last week. As  a black belt in Modern Arnis under the late Remy Presas, I still love the form (which is contrary to many people with a FMA background). I like the way the sticks are used as simple extensions of the arm and how base self-defense techniques from lower belt ranks are incorporated into the form. I also like the idea of re-emphasizing the importance of stepping off the line of attack. 

Long Form 7 was originally the double knife form, and not the double club form. When the double club form was added to the curriculum, the double knife form was bumped up to Long Form 8. 

I like introducing students to single stick work early on. When they get some of the basics down, I then introduce double stick. 

One of the best persons to ask about history in Kenpo is Joe Rebello (also known as KenpoJoe). 


Hope that helps.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## kenpoworks (May 24, 2005)

Jamie  it's great to hear a Kenpoka with a solid FMA understanding  say ..."I still love the form (which is contrary to many people with a FMA background)"... and then qualify the statement with some examples.
Nice one!
Richard


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## parkerkarate (May 24, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I just taught Long Form 7 in a advanced seminar last week. As  a black belt in Modern Arnis under the late Remy Presas, I still love the form (which is contrary to many people with a FMA background). I like the way the sticks are used as simple extensions of the arm and how base self-defense techniques from lower belt ranks are incorporated into the form. I also like the idea of re-emphasizing the importance of stepping off the line of attack.
> 
> Long Form 7 was originally the double knife form, and not the double club form. When the double club form was added to the curriculum, the double knife form was bumped up to Long Form 8.
> 
> ...



I have just finished learning Long form 6 and I am starting long form 7. Can you tell me how long 8 goes please? I have never seen it and Mr. Joe Palanzo has not taught it to anybody.


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## Seabrook (May 24, 2005)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I have just finished learning Long form 6 and I am starting long form 7. Can you tell me how long 8 goes please? I have never seen it and Mr. Joe Palanzo has not taught it to anybody.


*Long Form 8, like Long Form 7,​*also replicates open-handed techniques done at earlier belt ranks but this form is done with two knives. It is typically required for promotion to 5th Degree Black Belt. From my understanding, the number of people who learned Long 8 directly from Ed Parker can probably be counted on one hand.​​The decision of Ed Parker to include a knife form in his American Kenpo curriculum stemmed from several sources. These included Gil Hibbens knife set he had created for his black belt thesis, watching such knife experts as Mike Pick, and utilizing the experience Parker had gained by learning the double butterfly swords from various Kung Fu masters.​​Over time, Ed Parker developed his own theories, concepts, and principles to knife fighting and thus developed the double knife form. The very few people who had learned the form from Ed Parker were those who in Parkers opinion had mastered the art of Kenpo. Still, Ed Parker was in the process of revamping the form prior to his death to deal with some of the techniques that supposedly were dangerous to try to employ with the knife.​​Hope that helps.​​Jamie Seabrook​www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com​​


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## Seabrook (May 24, 2005)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Jamie it's great to hear a Kenpoka with a solid FMA understanding say ..."I still love the form (which is contrary to many people with a FMA background)"... and then qualify the statement with some examples.
> Nice one!
> Richard


Thanks Richard. Like yourself, I love the entire curriculum. EPAK all the way baby!


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Wes Idol (May 24, 2005)

Mr. Seabrook, 

You and I have never met, but I know of some of your efforts to track our history and certainly appreciate your projects and intentions to put together true accounts.  This last post of yours caught my attention and I thought I might have some points that might serve the subject.



			
				Seabrook said:
			
		

> The decision of Ed Parker to include a knife form in his American Kenpo curriculum stemmed from several sources. These included Gil Hibbens knife set he had created for his black belt thesis, watching such knife experts as Mike Pick, and utilizing the experience Parker had gained by learning the double butterfly swords from various Kung Fu masters.



At the time a lot of people were excited by the presence of Bruce Lee.  When a couple of Mr. Parker's students tried to talk him into doing something with knives (knowing that Mr. Parker was very much into knives), it seemed that Mr. Parker accepted the idea.  The set (Form 8, which used to be called Form 7 or Twin Daggers) had a lot of big chinese circles and was put together pretty quickly.  I remember going over this set with Mr. Pick at his house in Colorado and it was quite clear to me that this set was unsaveable...which is probably why he did not try to revamp it, as he did everything else.  The bulk of Mr. Parker's knife practices were going on a long time before Gil Hibbin came around, and Mike Pick was still a young boy when he first saw Mr. Parker doing anything with a knife.



			
				Seabrook said:
			
		

> Still, Ed Parker was in the process of revamping the form prior to his death to deal with some of the techniques that supposedly were dangerous to try to employ with the knife.



In the end, Mr. Parker was creating a lot of knife applications with Mr. Pick...as well as Mr. Pick bringing a lot to the table in the form of created techniques based on what Mr. Parker taught him....in regard to the knife and Kenpo.  As Mr. Parker had completed revamping his whole system, and handing down those teachings maybe a year before his passing, doesn't leave a lot of room for why he just never tried to fix Form 8 with Mr. Pick, or Mr. Hawkins.  Form 8 seems like it was material that was not going to make it in the long term, much like Book Set.

Mr. Seabrook, I know you've put some sincere time into researching our history and preserving it's truth.  I simply mean to honor your efforts and add to the subject.

Respectfully,


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## hammer (May 25, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I just taught Long Form 7 in a advanced seminar last week. As a black belt in Modern Arnis under the late Remy Presas, I still love the form (which is contrary to many people with a FMA background). I like the way the sticks are used as simple extensions of the arm and how base self-defense techniques from lower belt ranks are incorporated into the form. I also like the idea of re-emphasizing the importance of stepping off the line of attack.
> 
> Long Form 7 was originally the double knife form, and not the double club form. When the double club form was added to the curriculum, the double knife form was bumped up to Long Form 8.
> 
> ...


Mr Seabrook, I appoligize for not responding earlier, thank you for sharing, 

I personally like many of the techniques that are contained within form7 and appreciate the value that it contributes to the system and my own understanding, I find that having practiced Fma for only a few years, that there is a distinct difference in the use, and application of the cane whilst being the same. (Hope u know what I mean) at the moment I am finding it very challenging to execute the techniques, "I think" primarily based on mussel memory from my pervious study in the fma the flow and or rhythm is very different, my cane tends to runaway!

Could you advise on how I might best address this.?

Once again thank you for sharing



Cheers Hammer.


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## Seabrook (May 25, 2005)

Wes Idol said:
			
		

> Mr. Seabrook,
> 
> You and I have never met, but I know of some of your efforts to track our history and certainly appreciate your projects and intentions to put together true accounts. This last post of yours caught my attention and I thought I might have some points that might serve the subject.
> 
> ...


Thanks Wes. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (May 25, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> Mr Seabrook, I appoligize for not responding earlier, thank you for sharing,
> 
> I personally like many of the techniques that are contained within form7 and appreciate the value that it contributes to the system and my own understanding, I find that having practiced Fma for only a few years, that there is a distinct difference in the use, and application of the cane whilst being the same. (Hope u know what I mean) at the moment I am finding it very challenging to execute the techniques, "I think" primarily based on mussel memory from my pervious study in the fma the flow and or rhythm is very different, my cane tends to runaway!
> 
> ...


 
Eeeek! What a tough question. To be completely honest, Long 7 never came easy to me either, probably because of my FMA background. The only advice I can give, without beating around the bush, is that it takes a lot of time and a lot of practice. Sorry!


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (May 25, 2005)

I have a couple of questions for Wes Idol.

Wes,

What do you think of Long Form 7 and do you know what Ed Parker's general attitude and feeling was towards FMA? 

Thanks in advance.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Wes Idol (May 25, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I have a couple of questions for Wes Idol.
> 
> Wes,
> 
> What do you think of Long Form 7 and do you know what Ed Parker's general attitude and feeling was towards FMA?



Jamie, 

Good to meet you (I am very comfortable with us using first names...I hope you are too.).

I am quite fond of Form 7 (as there is no short version, I only refer to it as "Form" 7....unlike 1, 2 & 3).  I spent some years working out with FMA practitioners at Innosanto's Academy (in Marina Del Rey before he moved to Playa Del Rey), and I always apprciated the flow of FMA.  

I know that Mr. Parker never allowed FMA practitioners to teach @ Pasadena (as Huk Planas wanted) because of the exchanging aspect of the FMA way.  On one point, the drills help feel where someone can get to you, through the two man drills of FMA.  I think Mr. Parker always wanted drills to go one way...like our techniques.  Recalling the "what if" aspect of our techniques, there is a time for the partner to NOT go with the technique, and there is when the Kenpoist can see if what they are doing will work.

Being exposed to Form 7, as well as Kenpo Knife strategies with Mr. Pick, I never got the feeling that there should be any room for an exchange...as one might witness in FMA drills.  Now, with all that written, Mr. Parker seemed to always want his students to check out EVERYTHING, then bring it home so we can work on it.  Mr. Parker seemed very respectful towards other dedicated practitioners...heck, it was he who sent Danny Innosanto to FMA in the first place! LOL

Hope this helps.

Yours,


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## teej (Dec 24, 2005)

Who was it that created form 7? I am told Mr. Parker did not, that one of his students did.

Thank you, Teej


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## Wes Idol (Dec 24, 2005)

During the Bruce Lee craze, Mr. Parker was pushed a bit (by some of his students) to do something with knives...as they knew he did love the edged weapon.


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## teej (Dec 24, 2005)

This is my understanding. Just like the staff set, form 7 was created by one of Mr. Parkers students. It was shown to Mr. Parker and he approved it, but he, Mr. Parker, did not create it. So who did? Please ask Mr. Pick to see if he knows.

Thank you, Teej


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## Wes Idol (Dec 24, 2005)

Actually, Mr. Parker came to Sullivan with a much longer Staff Set.  Sullivan could only remember most of it, and deleted a couple moves, and that's what Mr. Parker kept.  So in truth, Mr. Parker brought that set to his students and one of his students (Chuck Sullivan) helped cut it down...not create it.

For clarification, Form 7 is the sticks and Form 8 is the knives.  Mr. Parker created both.  Ask Mr. Pick and you will hear the same thing.


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## Bob White (Dec 24, 2005)

I enjoy doing and teaching Form 7. I grew up hitting something all of my life and when I got a chance to have a stick in my hand it seemed very natural. It is interesting to me to teach someone who has not had a history of athletics. I have had success in sharing information from other athletics and applying it to kenpo. We do not have the financial capabilities that are necessary to study the biomechanics of some of our motions. Using video and slow motion film, studies have enabled the coaches to raise the level of performance in their athletes. Enjoying athletics, I often find useful techniques from other coaches . Utilizing pronation and supination with the weapons in Form 7 is certainly a method of obtaining more efficiency and power. Generating clubhead speed in tennis, golf, and hitting a baseball is filmed and studied often to give the athlete the best tools for improvement. I have had good results in refering to these techniques in striking with the weapons in Form 7 as well as empty hands. 
Some of you instructors might get some teaching tools from looking up Vic Braden`s research in tennis. He had done remarkable work in energy dispersement in athletics. I remember years ago he set up a computer on the average runner and we watched his head go up and down as he ran. He set up the same system on a world class runner and his head remained level while he was running. I have used this as a teaching tool for years to get our students to move well. If you go in and look for what is useful as opposed to what is different you might find something you like and can use.
Respectfully,
Bob White


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