# Why I am pissed off at the IMAF



## GouRonin (Jan 22, 2002)

A little while ago I recieved an e-mail from Arnis4@aol.com to my private account that my wife and I share. When I recieve anything like list e-mails and such I prefer to use my hotmail account of kenpo_ronin@hotmail.com.

The e-mail was from the IMAF and Dr. R Shea in regards to an event for the IMAF. I am NOT an IMAF member and the only way the IMAF would even have gotten my private e-mail address is by stealing it off a WMAA e-mailing.

Since that date I have started to get porno spam on that e-mail address. Something I never had a problem with before. Would someone please inform the IMAF to kindly remove me from their list and either use my hotmail address if they have to send me anything or not at all. I will now have to try and get my e-mail address off about a dozen porno spam lists.

I have sent an e-mail off to both randi@prismtrading.com and Arnis4@aol.com stating this as well.

Thank you.


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## Mao (Jan 23, 2002)

This was not an IMAF,inc. at large issue. It has, however, been addressed.
                      MAO


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 23, 2002)

Email harvestings pretty much common place.  Not saying its right, just common.  Regarding the email(s) in question, if the person sending the email doesn't put all of the recipients addys in the BCC field, they are exposed for anyone to see.

So, if you're sending out a mass-mailing to folks, remember to put em all in the BCC field.  Put yourself in the To: field if your email software won't allow it to be left blank.

As a note: Martialtalk does not sell/rent/distribute or publish members email addresses.  If we have to get in touch with members, we'll BCC em, unless its directed at 1 user.

Gou - Good luck on the de-spamming.

Mao - Glad its resolved.



:asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jan 23, 2002)

I make a point of BCC and mailing to myself. I also put a "If you want to be removed from list" option on my mails. I make a point to remove people from the list who don't want to be part of it. This seems to be ignored by at least one member of the IMAF Shea group on a regular basis.
 :asian:


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## Mao (Jan 23, 2002)

The last line in your post was a cheap shot at the IMAF, inc. and Dr. Shea. Poor form and unprofessional.  Not necessary.


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## GouRonin (Jan 23, 2002)

How professional was it for them to make my private e-mail address into a porno spam playground?

I never asked for it and as a result I have been running all over getting my e-mail de-spammed. Not only that my provider has been good enough to add extra spam protection onto my account.

I have a hotmail account for just such a reason. I can filter spam or just delete.

Now I have e-mailed both and asked them to remove me from their list but I have also had to do this with a ton of porno spam to the point my provider had to intervene.

I gave Renegade:erg: my private e-mail address so that my wife can be aware of what I do with that group as she enjoys knowing. (Renegade has my wife's hard-to-come-by approval) he has been descrete kept it private. I've been on his list for over a year. Suddenly I get this e-mail from another group and I'm spam bombed?

It's something I'm really not happy with. Hopefully they will comply as I imagine they will as I am assured by yourself Mao that they are reputable. I actually trust you on this because you've never lied to me and always seem to be truthful on what you say. The problem is I still have to deal with the fallout.

Hopefully this will be a learning experience for the IMAF and their foray into the internet.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jan 23, 2002)

I disagree. I'm stating a fact. If you look at the Modern Arnis threads, you will see that Al Garza ( A IMAF, Inc member) has constantly ignored Arnisadors' request to remove him from the mailing list. I would have mentioned his name, but I've been told that it would be in poor form. So instead I identified the group he is from.

For future reference I'll be refering to the IMAF groups as IMAF Shea or IMAF Delaney. I feel that it is the best way to identify them. As I said before this punctuated or unpunctuated stuff is silly. I will refer to the leaders of the groups for proper identification.

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jan 23, 2002)

Mao got on this right away and it is taken care of on the end of the IMAF as best it can be. I will continue with my end.

Thank you very much for your prompt action Mao. I appreciate it. 

Now, can you solve the whole Modern Arnis problem as quickly please? Heh heh heh...


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## Mao (Jan 23, 2002)

Renegade,
  It was totally un-necessary for you to point a finger at all. The first three lines of your post would have sufficed. It was a cheap shot. It is possible to build oneself up, or make a point, without knocking someone else down. 

 Gou,
 Thank you for your kind words. I'm sorry for the hassle at your end.


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## GouRonin (Jan 23, 2002)

Well. Dr. Shea now has my respect for dealing with my problem in a timely and appropriate manner. Both he and Mao are a-ok in my books.

I normally wouldn't trip like this but when things involve my wife I sorta run past caution into blinding red on a dime. There is no middle ground. You %$#@ with the wife you get your throat ripped out.

I think it shows a great deal of respect and maturity to deal with the issue in such a manner and I am glad that the people leading the IMAF seem to have it. Hopefully they'll reign in those loose cannons.

"Dear Sir,

Please let me apologize for your email spams and the inconvenience and unethical information/products that often 
ccompany such spams.  With regards to your email address, I personally did not know from which mailing list your email was 
initially from, nor did I have any intent of contacting you 
specifically.  However, having been involved in computer sciences and web technologies, I am well aware of the ease of accessibility of email addresses for spamming purposes.  These 
techniques and mailing lists are all too often sold or shared, 
especially in certain undesirable industries such as pornography, money-making opportunities, telephone/long-distance items,
travel ads, etc.  Any email address on a single mailing list is 
vulnerable to receive spam emails.  I only hope that your spams will cease.

In the meantime, I will certainly check to make sure that your 
email is not included in our group mailing list.  I will not add 
kenpo_ronin@hotmail.com to our mailing list either - until/unless 
as per your request.  Finally, if you should have any interest, please do not hesitate to visit the IMAF website at www.modernarnis.net at your convenience.  Thank you for your 
time and attention.

Regards,

Randi Schea, MD"


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## arnisador (Jan 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *Renegade,
> It was totally un-necessary for you to point a finger at all. The first three lines of your post would have sufficed. It was a cheap shot.*



I agreed with you about a similar point before because I believed that you were right. In this case I cannot agree with you. I continually receive unwanted e-mails from Mr. Garza, an IMAF, Inc., officer, despite my requests that he stop and Mr. Hartman's request on my behalf that hes top as well as my complaints to his ISP. This may not be an official act of the IMAF, Inc., but the actions of your board of directors will certainly reflect on your organization. I too received an unexpected e-mail from Dr. Schea, regarding pictures for the IMAF, Inc. web page, at an e-mail address that Mr. Hartman and I concur must have come from his list or web site. The e-mail was relevant and not unwanted but it would have been proper to contact Mr. Hartman before appropriating his list/information and to add an explanation to the e-mail sent by Dr. Schea explaining why the e-mail was being sent to people who had not contacted him first.

The IMAF, Inc. appears to recognize that this has not been handled well and I think that there is no need to make a mountain of a molehill here, but Mr. Hartman is dead right--he has been handling his mass e-mails properly and professionally and IMAF, Inc. officials, acting on their own behalf or on behalf on the IMAF, Inc., have not been doing so. No removal instructions, not BCC'ed, no explanation of how and why someone was added to a list or sent an e-mail, and in Mr. Garza's case no removal of those who request to be removed (even after he has unwittingly sent viruses out with some of these mailings). Adding someone to a list without their explicit request--doing an opt-out vs. opt-in mailing--is considered poor mass e-mail etiquette in any event.

I don't see this as an isolated incident and to the extent that it is part of a pattern I think that Mr. Hartman's comment was fair, accurate, and appropriate. I'm pleased to see that you and Dr. Schea are taking prompt action and that he has expressed regret for the inconvenience it has caused (again, I myself was not inconvenienced unless he has exposed me to additional spam as well). But if you have bad manners, people may notice. These were bad manners. The IMAF, Inc. is certainly not above reproach.

A few places to look for information on how to do this right (see their links):
www.cauce.org
www.stopspam.org


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## Mao (Jan 24, 2002)

I disagree. Renegades point was made in his 1st three sentences. What he has done is make many people look bad for the mistakes of one. It's not the 1st time and I'm not the only one who has noticed. He doesn't like being sniped. He also gets many of his e-mail addresses from other sites. That's not uncommon. If someone in his org. does something, that doesn't mean his whole org. does.  It was a cheap shot, and un necessary. 
  Would you like me to call Mr. Garza. I could probably fix this with out all the public whining.  If you privately e-mail me with your e-mail add. that is getting the unwanted messages, I'll see what I can do. Posts like Renegades will serve to drive wedge between the orgs., unless that's what he wants. I know he'll read this.


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## arnisador (Jan 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *I disagree. Renegades point was made in his 1st three sentences. What he has done is make many people look bad for the mistakes of one.*



I disagree--we are now talking about the actions of both Mr. Garza and Dr. Schea, the latter in some cases explicitly on behalf of the IMAF, Inc. Dr. Schea has apparently acknowledged his error w.r.t. the e-mail sent to GouRonin and has taken steps to correct it--I respect that. As to Mr. Hartman's comment I agree it was not necessary but I think it was not uncalled for 



> *
> Would you like me to call Mr. Garza. I could probably fix this with out all the public whining.
> *



I appreciate the offer, but there is a matter of principle here--Mr. Garza is doing something undeniably wrong and deserves the negative publciity that follows from it. Fixing my problem would only help me. This requires a change in policy on his end (to comply with his ISP's AUP).



> *
> Posts like Renegades will serve to drive wedge between the orgs., unless that's what he wants.*



I know I don't. However, I think this will rapidly die down.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 24, 2002)

Couple of notes:

This started out as a discourse between Gou and Mao.  The situation was handled well, IMHO.  Dr. Schea's taking the time to personally handle the issue and prevent future occurences only can bode well for the IMAF group lead by him.  

Based on commentary here and on other forums I frequent, this Mr Garza is a known spammer who continuously fails to obey any level of Internet Etiquette where unsollicited bulk emails are concerned.  His ISP seems to not enforce their own AUP.  This can lead to blacklisting of the entire ISP for a good percentage of the internet.  As my understanding is that he is involved in a major way with Dr. Schea's IMAF, this is bad for all involved.  It reflects poorly on the organization, and until such time as it is handled, is a constant problem.

Mr. Hartman as per a previous request in a diferent thread to not "name-names", simply refered in general to a known issue. 





> This seems to be ignored by at least one member of the IMAF Shea group on a regular basis.


 in no way to me results in 





> What he has done is make many people look bad for the mistakes of one.



For the most part, I am in agreement with arnisador on this.  A problem was posted, and solved by prompt action on the part of the organization (IMAF-Schea).  This is something that can only be considered good for the organization.

We do not know how/where the list was obtained, or can't prove it.  Somehow, it got out, and has been distributed.  These things do happen from time to time.  Its in how its dealt with that shows the true professionalism of an organization.

The personal sniping going on right now, detracts from this.  My recomendation to all parties involved is to rise above the "sniping" and truely represent your organizations in a positive manner. Resist the urge to hop on and start flaming away.  Yes, you may have a valid point, however, will your actions reflect well on your organization when the smoke has cleared?  Think.

If you gentlemen have personal heat between the 2 of you, I ask that you please take it to Email, PM, or Phone.  Based on a large number of posts and the PM's from at least 6 forum members, this appears to be the case.

I'd personally like to see all of the Modern Arnis organizations working together to preserve and further the art I'm involved in.

Note: My using "IMAF-Schea" to indicate which group is not meant as a slight.  The 2 organizations are using names too similar to be legal.  Until such time as this is straightened out, it only makes sence to indicate which is which based on their leadership.  I'm sorry, but according to the laws in my state, a minor punctuation change is not different enough to be valid, especially when in the same industry.  My recomendation is that legal advice be sought and enforced to clear up the issue ASAP.

Thank you
:asian:


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## Tapps (Jan 26, 2002)

I had the same problem with the IMAF sending unwanted e-mails.

They did remove me when I asked them but it caused other problems.

Please folks, pay attention to the Bcc advice posted above.

I get enough junk going through my computer.


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## Mao (Jan 27, 2002)

This whole thread has turned to junk! I'm outta here. Some people have to much time on their hands...........


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## arnisador (Jan 28, 2002)

This thread is now locked.

-Arnisador
 MT Mod.


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