# Am I Man Enough for Ninjutsu?



## adpatterson (Jan 15, 2017)

Ok,  Wanted to get more advice.  After posting for some reading on Ninjutsu, I decided it wasn't enough and went to two classes about an hour from me, on Thursday evening and Saturday morning.  The results were not spectacular.  According to my doctor this afternoon I had a dislocated left shoulder, broken metacarpals on my right hand, strained right groin, strain lower right back, and an over sense of brokenness and humility.  Thursday i felt my shoulder pop as I was "placed" on the ground after a joint lock (by a 110 lb female).  Saturday two mins into practice I pulled my groin doing some sort of side roll.  10 mins after that when practicing knife attack defense, my training partner stuck my otter right hand with a knuckle attack about 50+ time, and "gently" guided my fat a$$ to the ground all the while testing the pain threshold in my wrist, elbow and shoulder areas.

I need to add that I'm a 37 year old man that is 6'3" and 300lbs.  Im severely overweight and I haven't exercised in the last decade unless you consider pumping gas, squats off the toilet after taking a dump, taking out the kitchen trash, or brushing my teeth as exercise?  Ive been more sedentary than a grazing pregnant cow over the last decade.  SO with all that, you know the condition I entered these two sessions in.

My real question here is,  am I just too weak or is the training too intense? Is this the normal for dojo's and practice partners?  Im no martial artist but I would think that you would dial back the insensitive in which you perform the joint locks and attacks not just the speed at which you are preforming them.  What is the standard % speed/pressure you normally use in practice.  The movement speeds were slowed to 10-20% I would guess but the locks and the tension was seemingly allowed up to 70-90%.  I was in heavy pain with each demonstration performed on me.  The other issue is the 2nd part of these movements.  So the lock and tension come first then its to the ground.  Well a 300 lb man can't go to the ground well on his own much less with his arm locked up and someone throwing him down.  It was a recipe for disaster.

Anyway is this just normal or am I in a bad dojo, or do I just need to give up martial arts until a grow a larger set of kahonas?

Lastly I'm looking for any style of ninjutsu closer to me.  Ive loaded this map of North Carolina to see if any of you know of anywhere within my willing driving distance to train.  Thank you all!


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2017)

is this drills?

Are you just standing there while they are teeing off on you and messing you up?

Or is it sparring where you at least have an opportunity to defend yourself?

edit sorry re read it. They are being duchebags.

Ok this is how you perform a joint lock when you are practicing.





You will notice that the armlockee does not fight to the death and the armlocker does not crank the lock. If they are not training like that in drills then leave.


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## KangTsai (Jan 15, 2017)

As for the drilling, yes, that is as normal as it gets. If you don't get at least a little roughed up from any grappling, you're training too softly, and whatever you're doing won't work in real life for you. Decent fitness makes this a breeze.

I really, really doubt that you are learning authentic ninjutsu at all by the way. That just sounds like some aikido/jujutsu class in ninja clothing to me. Check out the now inactive "Chosunninja" channel. Pretty mind-blowing stuff.


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## adpatterson (Jan 15, 2017)

This is Bujinkan Ninjutsu in Charlotte NC.  Yes this is drills only and no sparing, just instructional.  I know my fitness level caused most of my discomfort but are overweight individuals frowned upon in MA because they lack the ability to be a good uke?  Im not sure if I should just get some DVD's to watch and practice at home until I can lose some weight.  I like the part of having people to go work with and feel a part of something.  Being at home by myself will be much harder to stick with and be successful.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> This is Bujinkan Ninjutsu in Charlotte NC.  Yes this is drills only and no sparing, just instructional.  I know my fitness level caused most of my discomfort but are overweight individuals frowned upon in MA because they lack the ability to be a good uke?  Im not sure if I should just get some DVD's to watch and practice at home until I can lose some weight.  I like the part of having people to go work with and feel a part of something.  Being at home by myself will be much harder to stick with and be successful.



If you are having that big an issue with movement. Do boxing or something similar. At least untill the weight comes down. That way you can train in a group. Learn a heap of useable skills. But your individual pace wont really effect anybody else's progression.


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## adpatterson (Jan 15, 2017)

Are you guys aware of any instructional videos that would help practice technique as well as condition me?  Thanks.


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## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> Are you guys aware of any instructional videos that would help practice technique as well as condition me?  Thanks.



As Drop Bear says, maybe a bit boxing would be a good companion. In fact not full on boxing is required per se. Not sure what you would call it in the US, but over here we boxercise (among other names) which is generally a cardio workout. Some add strenght training with kettle bells and such like, but the big thing is that nobody cares that a person is overweight, so that adds confidence both ways, to workout, and be worked out. Anyway, hope you continue and all the best with it. Turn that physical limitation into a possitive is the best I can think off.


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## Jenna (Jan 15, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> Ok,  Wanted to get more advice.  After posting for some reading on Ninjutsu, I decided it wasn't enough and went to two classes about an hour from me, on Thursday evening and Saturday morning.  The results were not spectacular.  According to my doctor this afternoon I had a dislocated left shoulder, broken metacarpals on my right hand, strained right groin, strain lower right back, and an over sense of brokenness and humility.  Thursday i felt my shoulder pop as I was "placed" on the ground after a joint lock (by a 110 lb female).  Saturday two mins into practice I pulled my groin doing some sort of side roll.  10 mins after that when practicing knife attack defense, my training partner stuck my otter right hand with a knuckle attack about 50+ time, and "gently" guided my fat a$$ to the ground all the while testing the pain threshold in my wrist, elbow and shoulder areas.
> 
> I need to add that I'm a 37 year old man that is 6'3" and 300lbs.  Im severely overweight and I haven't exercised in the last decade unless you consider pumping gas, squats off the toilet after taking a dump, taking out the kitchen trash, or brushing my teeth as exercise?  Ive been more sedentary than a grazing pregnant cow over the last decade.  SO with all that, you know the condition I entered these two sessions in.
> 
> ...


If you are damaging your self like this perhaps in part you have been extended beyond your current level of fitness or flexibility. Just like be mindful of your current limits and do not do what you are not capable of doing yes?? Is not matter of being man enough that is BS.. is just common sense  xo Plus ANY experienced sensei will be aware of your status as beginner and your level of fitness and work with you so you can improve, if not, I should question whether I would wish to train under someone who do not have my safety and wellbeing as a concern.. Up to them to adjust, not you!  

Hey I have question also to clarify.. so you describe being "in heavy pain" which sound harsh.. 
1. did they know you were in pain?? like I mean so you tap at this point?? 
2. if so, they do not stop the tech even when you tap?? 

Wishes to you xo


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## Chris Parker (Jan 15, 2017)

Okay...

In a simple, one word response to the thread title... yes. Dammit, yes. There's no such thing as being, or not being, "man" enough. 

As to the rest of your post, that I'm going to take apart a bit. It's not easy to make an assessment with a one-sided viewpoint being presented here, and without being in the class, but hopefully my last 25 years in the art can help give an idea of what is "normal" (common) or not... 



adpatterson said:


> Ok,  Wanted to get more advice.  After posting for some reading on Ninjutsu, I decided it wasn't enough and went to two classes about an hour from me, on Thursday evening and Saturday morning.  The results were not spectacular.  According to my doctor this afternoon I had a dislocated left shoulder, broken metacarpals on my right hand, strained right groin, strain lower right back, and an over sense of brokenness and humility.  Thursday i felt my shoulder pop as I was "placed" on the ground after a joint lock (by a 110 lb female).  Saturday two mins into practice I pulled my groin doing some sort of side roll.  10 mins after that when practicing knife attack defense, my training partner stuck my otter right hand with a knuckle attack about 50+ time, and "gently" guided my fat a$$ to the ground all the while testing the pain threshold in my wrist, elbow and shoulder areas.



Yeah... that list of injuries is highly unusual, particularly in such a short time, and on a brand new student for that matter... 



adpatterson said:


> I need to add that I'm a 37 year old man that is 6'3" and 300lbs.  Im severely overweight and I haven't exercised in the last decade unless you consider pumping gas, squats off the toilet after taking a dump, taking out the kitchen trash, or brushing my teeth as exercise?  Ive been more sedentary than a grazing pregnant cow over the last decade.  SO with all that, you know the condition I entered these two sessions in.



Yeah, that won't have helped... it can explain a number of the injuries (weakening/softening of the joints in the shoulder, lack of flexibility in your inner thigh/groin etc), but not all of them... the broken metacarpals, for example, could have been influenced by a lack of calcium and strength to your bones (you haven't mentioned diet yet), but still, unless they were unusually brittle, you shouldn't have left with them actually broken... 

Ideally, your (new) instructor should have seen the condition you are in, and worked towards finding out what you can do, and building from there... if getting low for a roll is too much, they should (ideally) have given a variation to allow you to work up to that... 



adpatterson said:


> My real question here is,  am I just too weak or is the training too intense? Is this the normal for dojo's and practice partners?  Im no martial artist but I would think that you would dial back the insensitive in which you perform the joint locks and attacks not just the speed at which you are preforming them.  What is the standard % speed/pressure you normally use in practice.  The movement speeds were slowed to 10-20% I would guess but the locks and the tension was seemingly allowed up to 70-90%.  I was in heavy pain with each demonstration performed on me.  The other issue is the 2nd part of these movements.  So the lock and tension come first then its to the ground.  Well a 300 lb man can't go to the ground well on his own much less with his arm locked up and someone throwing him down.  It was a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Anyway is this just normal or am I in a bad dojo, or do I just need to give up martial arts until a grow a larger set of kahonas?



It's really not easy to say... you mention being "placed" on the ground... but I'm not sure what you intend the quotation marks to imply. Are you saying that you were put down harder than you would have thought appropriate? Or that it was gentle, but you had a bad landing yourself?

As for the rest, there is no "standard", particularly in the Bujinkan... each dojo will be individual... but one would hope that the pressure/speed/power is scaled to the student(s) performing and receiving the techniques. Many schools will have you working on only being the defending (winning) partner, until they know you can take ukemi safely enough to have techniques applied on you... or just work ukemi in the first place... 

That said, with the lack of fitness and lack of exercise in your past, it is likely that you are overly sensitive to the stress being put on your body when techniques are applied... much of the ability to receive particularly the nastier joint locks rely on becoming accustomed to it over time and experience. For example, a lock that I apply fairly strongly on my black and brown belts without them having too much of a negative response, I can only put on at about a quarter of the intensity to some of my white belts... they're simply not used to it yet. I will say, though, that that has nothing to do with any relative size of your (or anyone's) kajones... that's really not the best way to think of things. 

Really, you have a couple of options... you can talk to your instructor, and say "hey, this is what's happening...", and see their reaction (here's a hint... if he says you just need to tough it out, leave). You can look for other schools, bearing in mind that much of the problems may stem from your lack of fitness at this stage... or you can not train, and continue to slip further and further from fitness and physical confidence....



adpatterson said:


> Lastly I'm looking for any style of ninjutsu closer to me.  Ive loaded this map of North Carolina to see if any of you know of anywhere within my willing driving distance to train.  Thank you all!
> 
> View attachment 20335



There aren't so much different "styles" of ninjutsu.... realistically, there's authentic ninjutsu, found in a number of organisations, but always stemming from the teachings of Takamatsu Toshitsugu (known, appropriately, as the Takamatsu-den, or Takamatsu traditions), most notably the Bujinkan, the Genbukan, and the Jinenkan, as well as groups such as Toshindo. All of them teach the same arts, and the same technical material, for the greater part... 



KangTsai said:


> As for the drilling, yes, that is as normal as it gets. If you don't get at least a little roughed up from any grappling, you're training too softly, and whatever you're doing won't work in real life for you. Decent fitness makes this a breeze.



I'm going to caution against making such statements... you not only don't know anything about the dojo that Aaron trained at, you don't actually know anything about the art he's talking about, nor the organisation itself... so no, it's potentially not as "normal as it gets"...



KangTsai said:


> I really, really doubt that you are learning authentic ninjutsu at all by the way. That just sounds like some aikido/jujutsu class in ninja clothing to me. Check out the now inactive "Chosunninja" channel. Pretty mind-blowing stuff.



Oh, gods, no!!!! Greg Park ("Chosunninja") is no authority whatsoever... there's no basis to anything he put up, and watching his channel thinking you're getting anything close to actual, legitimate information is simply folly. Again, you have no clue about these arts, so I'd recommend refraining from making such comments about what you think it authentic or not. Park is as far from it as you can get.



adpatterson said:


> This is Bujinkan Ninjutsu in Charlotte NC.  Yes this is drills only and no sparing, just instructional.  I know my fitness level caused most of my discomfort but are overweight individuals frowned upon in MA because they lack the ability to be a good uke?



Absolutely not. Bad uke are frowned upon because they're bad uke. You're a brand new student. The two are incredibly removed from each other.

But if overweight people were frowned upon in the Bujinkan, there goes many of the students and teachers... even some of the highest ranking ones... ha! So, no. What is frowned upon, though, is not putting in the work to improve... allowing your personal body image to stop you from thinking you can grow and succeed. I have a student who also has a lot of trouble going to ground due to his physical state... but he keeps coming back, and is making constant improvements. And that's the only way to do it... you keep turning up!



adpatterson said:


> Im not sure if I should just get some DVD's to watch and practice at home until I can lose some weight.  I like the part of having people to go work with and feel a part of something.  Being at home by myself will be much harder to stick with and be successful.



DVD's are supplemental, and frankly, that would be the weak way out. So no. 

There's an old saying that the only way to gain the proper fitness for the activity is to do the activity... you can wait until you are "fit enough", or you can go to the classes, and work, allowing the art and classes to give you the appropriate fitness the art requires. Of course, this is dependant on the idea that the injuries are more to do with your physical state than poor training partners... if the latter, I still say you will get there by attending class, but might suggest a better one... 



adpatterson said:


> Are you guys aware of any instructional videos that would help practice technique as well as condition me?  Thanks.



There are videos, but no, you're nowhere near at the point where they'll be of any assistance yet. Hitting the gym, on the other hand, taking up yoga, these can all help... personally, there's a DVD workout program I use, but it's on the higher end of the scale, so might not suggest it for you at this point. First and foremost, though, as with anything, before starting any exercise program (including engaging in the class), talk with your doctor, and see if there's any recommendation they make, or considerations they suggest to keep in mind.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> Ok,  Wanted to get more advice.  After posting for some reading on Ninjutsu, I decided it wasn't enough and went to two classes about an hour from me, on Thursday evening and Saturday morning.  The results were not spectacular.  According to my doctor this afternoon I had a dislocated left shoulder, broken metacarpals on my right hand, strained right groin, strain lower right back, and an over sense of brokenness and humility.  Thursday i felt my shoulder pop as I was "placed" on the ground after a joint lock (by a 110 lb female).  Saturday two mins into practice I pulled my groin doing some sort of side roll.  10 mins after that when practicing knife attack defense, my training partner stuck my otter right hand with a knuckle attack about 50+ time, and "gently" guided my fat a$$ to the ground all the while testing the pain threshold in my wrist, elbow and shoulder areas.
> 
> I need to add that I'm a 37 year old man that is 6'3" and 300lbs.  Im severely overweight and I haven't exercised in the last decade unless you consider pumping gas, squats off the toilet after taking a dump, taking out the kitchen trash, or brushing my teeth as exercise?  Ive been more sedentary than a grazing pregnant cow over the last decade.  SO with all that, you know the condition I entered these two sessions in.
> 
> ...


I know of no reason why all of that should happen to a beginner. That's poor control and poor safety, IMO. Things like that will happen, but shouldn't happen in clusters. The shoulder? That's actually a simple mistake for someone to make, especially if your shoulder is not flexible. It sounds like your partner was a bit enthusiastic. The groin, well, that can happen to anyone starting out, and likely there was little the instructor could do to prevent that. The hand? That's poor control. The two partner-induced injuries together are a bit worrying to me. Now, if you had been training a couple of years, I'd say those things might be the result of a very hard training session. But to a beginner? That's a safety failure, IMO.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 15, 2017)

Chris has it. Back in my Bujinkan days I had a classmate who was a white belt and about 80 years old. He had terrible flexibility and never got very good at the art - but he didn't get injured. His training partners adjusted to his limitations and your training partners need to adjust to yours.

Some thoughts on the specifics of your situation...

If your shoulder is dislocated, you'll need to heal up before you try again.  Rolling over a dislocated shoulder is not a good idea.

If you haven't yet learned to safely fall when a joint lock is applied, you can and should just tap out while standing. Ukemi is probably the most valuable thing you will learn in ninjutsu, but it sounds like you need to learn it in isolation at first rather than in combination with receiving a joint lock.

Along similar lines with regard to the knuckles to your metacarpals - it's totally okay to ask your partner to soften up the contact until such time as your body starts making the necessary adaptations to handle the impact.

In general, let your instructor and your training partners know your physical limitations so you can train safely. Your body will adapt, but you have to give it time. The idea is to push yourself gradually, not all at once.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 15, 2017)

It is possible that your a big tall guy and that in itself can intimidate some people.  Not realizing a lack of fitness people  may feel they have to go harder because your bigger then they are.  I had a class mate and friend stop training at brown belt because he was your size and a motorcycle biker with tattoos and everyone always went full blast on him, thinking they needed to step it up so as not to be perceived as wimpy.  Make sure you communicate with your partner to go very easy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Chris has it. Back in my Bujinkan days I had a classmate who was a white belt and about 80 years old. He had terrible flexibility and never got very good at the art - but he didn't get injured. His training partners adjusted to his limitations and your training partners need to adjust to yours.
> 
> Some thoughts on the specifics of your situation...
> 
> ...


And I'll add that it's probably a good idea to find a physical therapist who understands some of the mechanics involved in the types of locks and throws you're working with (most Japanese Jujutsu, Aikido, Judo has similar mechanics) and can advise on how to rehab that shoulder and the pulls, as well as how to improve flexibility and strength at the joints to prevent injury.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> It is possible that your a big tall guy and that in itself can intimidate some people.  Not realizing a lack of fitness people  may feel they have to go harder because your bigger then they are.  I had a class mate and friend stop training at brown belt because he was your size and a motorcycle biker with tattoos and everyone always went full blast on him, thinking they needed to step it up so as not to be perceived as wimpy.  Make sure you communicate with your partner to go very easy.


This can be especially true in grappling, where people think they need to crank harder and put you down faster, when both of those things already put more strain on a larger body (more mass to move, more mass to hit the ground).


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## adpatterson (Jan 15, 2017)

I have a condition that's genetic, I've passed it to my son as well.  Its called joint hypermobility syndrome. I'll add the definition below.  I'm double jointed in my shoulders, which is a problem too.  As a kid I use to clasp my hands together and literally jump rope using my arms if that makes sense.  I'm paying the price as an old man.  But I think the joint hypermobility syndrome may shed sone light on exactly why those joint locks abd the torhing, grinding, tightening are so rough on me.

"The *joint hypermobility syndrome* is a condition that features *joints* that easily move beyond the normal range expected for that particular *joint*. *Symptoms* of the *joint hypermobility syndrome* include pain in the knees, fingers, hips, and elbows."


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> I have a condition that's genetic, I've passed it to my son as well.  Its called joint hypermobility syndrome. I'll add the definition below.  I'm double jointed in my shoulders, which is a problem too.  As a kid I use to clasp my hands together and literally jump rope using my arms if that makes sense.  I'm paying the price as an old man.  But I think the joint hypermobility syndrome may shed sone light on exactly why those joint locks abd the torhing, grinding, tightening are so rough on me.
> 
> "The *joint hypermobility syndrome* is a condition that features *joints* that easily move beyond the normal range expected for that particular *joint*. *Symptoms* of the *joint hypermobility syndrome* include pain in the knees, fingers, hips, and elbows."


I can see why that would make locks more painful, and perhaps more problematic. That's something that can be accounted for in training, just as a very tight shoulder can be.


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## JR 137 (Jan 15, 2017)

It's seems like a classic case of too much, too soon.  Having all of that happen in your first 2 training sessions is alarming.

Speak to the instructor.  Any good instructor is going to understand progression.  While the story here is one sided, it's really difficult for me to extend the benefit of the doubt to the instructor in question.


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## adpatterson (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm not bashing the instructor or students.  The student that was wrecking my hand with knuckle punches was showing me over and over how to do the move.  He was very helpful or so he was trying.  My martial arts iq is extremely low so I think he was trying to dumb everything down for me, which by that time I was in so much pain I couldn't think about the moves lol.

The instructor did work with me some but did spend a better part of the time with the more experience group.  I don't mind that at all.  There were only 5 student.  3 regulars in a group and 1 regular with me.  I did feel like I may have been slowing the student with me down, he may have just been trying to hurry up an tech me the move so he could move to the other group.  Overall I like the group it was just very rough, or in my eyes it was.  

I appreciate all the feed back.  If the pain goes away by next week I'm definitely going back.  I'll be more vocal about my limitations.  I'm going to start doing more conditioning.  I have a pilates machine that I'm thinking might be quite helpful with this as well as a full set of competition kettlebells.  So, I'll get to work on all this and hope to see some change soon!  Thanks all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> I'm not bashing the instructor or students.  The student that was wrecking my hand with knuckle punches was showing me over and over how to do the move.  He was very helpful or so he was trying.  My martial arts iq is extremely low so I think he was trying to dumb everything down for me, which by that time I was in so much pain I couldn't think about the moves lol.
> 
> The instructor did work with me some but did spend a better part of the time with the more experience group.  I don't mind that at all.  There were only 5 student.  3 regulars in a group and 1 regular with me.  I did feel like I may have been slowing the student with me down, he may have just been trying to hurry up an tech me the move so he could move to the other group.  Overall I like the group it was just very rough, or in my eyes it was.
> 
> I appreciate all the feed back.  If the pain goes away by next week I'm definitely going back.  I'll be more vocal about my limitations.  I'm going to start doing more conditioning.  I have a pilates machine that I'm thinking might be quite helpful with this as well as a full set of competition kettlebells.  So, I'll get to work on all this and hope to see some change soon!  Thanks all.


This is a tough spot for an instructor. The new student is by far the least interesting to teach, and needs far more attention. If the others are fairly similar in level, they may not be used to the needs of a new student. They may be very nice folks, and even nice folks can have a problem controlling safety.

EDIT: Also note that most new students show more pain than experienced students. So an experienced student may simply not recognize when the pain is an indicator of more than the fact that you're not used to the pain.


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> I have a condition that's genetic, I've passed it to my son as well.  Its called joint hypermobility syndrome. I'll add the definition below.  I'm double jointed in my shoulders, which is a problem too.  As a kid I use to clasp my hands together and literally jump rope using my arms if that makes sense.  I'm paying the price as an old man.  But I think the joint hypermobility syndrome may shed sone light on exactly why those joint locks abd the torhing, grinding, tightening are so rough on me.
> 
> "The *joint hypermobility syndrome* is a condition that features *joints* that easily move beyond the normal range expected for that particular *joint*. *Symptoms* of the *joint hypermobility syndrome* include pain in the knees, fingers, hips, and elbows."



Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome?  I have two friends with this, one was an MMA fighter.


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## JP3 (Jan 15, 2017)

I agree with DropBear, there was some douchbaggery going on.

I also agree with KangTsai, that if your fitness level was better and your ability to move (not being able to get to the ground quick is a huge problem in arts which use lock submissions)(.

I combine both of the above statements into the class was, even if unconsciously, trying to drive some sort of point home. This is my opinion. Problem is, the end result... what your doc said... I have to contradict you, that is rather spectacular!

I mean, whoa... here's what you said:  "According to my doctor this afternoon I had a dislocated left shoulder, broken metacarpals on my right hand, strained right groin, strain lower right back, and an over sense of brokenness and humility."

And you got about half of that in the first class and you WENT BACK two days later.  That, in itself, is showing some great intestinal fortitude.

I agree again with Drop, a boxing gym is a great fit because of the extreme aerobic exercise you'll have to put yourself through. Just take it easy, and stepwise. Don't expect to be able to do a typical 20-round workout your first day. Best find a boxing club, go in and talk to one of the old guys,a nd get a plan. Follow the plan, and keep written hnotes on paper or in your phone. Don't push too hard at the outset, but each day go just a ... ittle... farther, a ... bit ... more energy consumed. Best of luck, but I think you can do it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 15, 2017)

Fitness and flexibility, we all need it.  In hearing your story that would be a major focus for me going forward.


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## jks9199 (Jan 15, 2017)

Did you advise the instructor about the joint condition?  

I am concerned about the number of injuries you suffered.  Good training will include some bumps and bruises and discomfort, and even the occasional injury.  But for a new student, absent a real accident or significant misunderstanding of directions (e.g., walked into something or slipped and fell, landing terribly), there shouldn't be major injuries that involve seeing a doctor.  

Chris and Tony have answered well, and, while I see concerns -- I'm also not absolutely trashing the teacher/class.  But you certainly should talk to the instructor (who will also be a good source for referrals to a club or class closer to you, probably...) about it.


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## adpatterson (Jan 15, 2017)

Actually I didn't even think about my joint condition at the time of going to class or writing this initially.  It's not something that I deal with on a daily basus.  I only about 5-6 years ago found that there was actually a name for it.  We were having diagnostics done on my son, they said it was genetic then interviewed me, even though we knew imeadiately after hearing genetic.


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## Brian King (Jan 17, 2017)

Folks tend to work 'harder' on bigger folks. A good training partner is honest and lets their partner know when there is pain and injury. Not too many want to injure their partner and would appreciate someone tapping or saying that they are injured.

You are in Charlotte area? I like that area having gone there a few times for Systema seminars. Good food and good people and great training.

Good luck in your training.
Regards
Brian King


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## adpatterson (Jan 18, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome?


  Well its very similar if not almost identical.


Brian King said:


> Folks tend to work 'harder' on bigger folks. A good training partner is honest and lets their partner know when there is pain and injury. Not too many want to injure their partner and would appreciate someone tapping or saying that they are injured.


  I'm having an issue actually tapping, i just yell in pain typically.  Once I'm in a joint-lock  i'm already getting my other arm ready to brace the impact of getting put to the groud.  If I dont the impact will be far too much for my body (actually either way is at this point...)  I'm gonna talk with everyone Thursday I guess.  It's hard as a man, when you go in there and have to ask people to go easy on you.  It may sound silly but it's the truth, that's the way we men are born!


JP3 said:


> And you got about half of that in the first class and you WENT BACK two days later.  That, in itself, is showing some great intestinal fortitude. Best of luck, but I think you can do it.


  This was a very encouraging thing to say,  I felt great hearing this!  Sometime we loose sight of what is actually in us.  Thank You!


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## JB28205 (Feb 3, 2017)

Aaron,
I'm really sorry you were injured. I've been going to the same class you went to for many years, and there has never been any serious injury as far as I know.  We work at really low speed, particularly with new people and generally take care to make sure everyone wants to come back. For the green and particularly the black belts, we all go home with bruises which is the nature of a 'martial' art, but that's the extent of it. 

It sounds like you might have some skeletal and fitness issues that should probably be addressed before you get into martial arts again. You had some spinal issues back in 2014? There are a lot of great resources online for low impact fitness.  Vahva Fitness on youtube is one of my favorites for building flexibility and strength. 

As a 45 year old man, I am well aquainted with the pains and strains of getting older. The important thing is to keep flexibility and know your limits. That 100lb girl in the class gets the better of me sometimes too and I've had to tell her to take it easy or back off. No pride lost. It's all about learning. 

Again, very sorry about your injuries.


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## JP3 (Feb 5, 2017)

JB28205 said:


> That 100lb girl in the class gets the better of me sometimes too and I've had to tell her to take it easy or back off. No pride lost. It's all about learning



I think I know this girl... she seems to be travelling from school to school, intentionally destroying the self-esteem of her older male training partners. I'm not sure if she's goind it on purpose or not.

J/K...


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## fatninja (Feb 7, 2017)

Hey there, I am 50 5'9" 250 lbs, I had my second class, it's not without struggle, My first class I got winded just doing the stretching exercises, lol , and the various stretches are difficult for me at times, but each class I get better and able to do juuuuust a little bit more as far as flexibility goes,I still have to practice my Kaiten rolls, as far as the class ,it's small and very well controlled, I don't get beat up or twisted like a pretzel like the more senior guys, my instructor gives them some advanced moves to practice, then works with me on the basics I need to know. I really do loooooove this class, instructor and martial art in general.


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## gojusi (Feb 7, 2017)

Hi Adpatterson,

I'm a new member here but I have 5 years of Wing Chun experience and i've just started up Goju-Ryu Karate. Here's my 2 cents: I think you've got two issues here. 1) You have joined a poor club (not your fault, you don't know until you've tried) and 2) Ninjutsu isn't going to get you fit. I'll elaborate on my thoughts.

You made me laugh with your original post (I think you intended the humour, about the pregnant cow thing!) but you've identified that you've got some weight that needs shifting and it's amazing that you've decided to join a martial arts class. I'm probably one of only a few people who knows someone who has done Ninjutsu for the long term. From what he tells me (and shows me), Ninjutsu isn't going to get you fit by itself. Ninjutsu is a philosophy, a way of life and about locks/submissions etc. It's something you do when you're already fit (some may disagree, but that's the impression I get when I speak to my friend who practices it).

As for the injuries you picked up...wow. That's simply a poor club. There is no way you should be getting injured on your first lesson. Maybe a bruise or two at the most. But I digress. I remember whilst I was training Kung Fu, there was a guy who wanted to injure people - he didn't last long at the club. Good instructors will not allow their members to get hurt by overly aggressive members. Incidentally - martial artists shouldn't be the overly-aggressive type. If members of a club cannot show restraint and know when they're inflicting too much damage - they're not good. Period.

My friend was showing me a Ninjutsu submission whereby his two hands were using my clothing to choke me. He tried it on me and just as I was about to tap out, before I even made the tap noise, he let go. He knew from the way I winced that I had felt it, and that was it.

So. My suggestion is this: you will want to find a Kung Fu or Karate class (Shotokan, or Goju-Ryu). The reason being: I always find Karate/Kung-Fu classes tend to have fantastic warm ups that start off relatively slow. You'll stretch your legs, your feet, your hands, your neck etc. There will be some jumping around - but don't overdo it, just do what you can. I say this with all seriousness: don't give yourself a heart attack..... just ease yourself into all of this. For example, if you manage to throw 10 punches in lesson 1. Try throwing 15 punches in lesson 2. In lesson 3, if you throw 20 punches, you've made progress.

Martial arts is about progress. Going into lesson 1 and getting injured so you can't make lesson 2 isn't progress - that's actually sending you backwards. Bottom line: find a better club that involves stretching and a good warm up and takes into account your current fitness levels, however good or bad they may be. A good club will strive to help make your fitness better, which in turn, will help your martial arts studies come along nicely.

Best wishes,
Gojusi


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## Chris Parker (Feb 8, 2017)

Hmm...

Hi, Gojusi. Firstly, welcome aboard. Secondly, I get that you feel you're offering good advice, but honestly, you're overstepping your bounds quite a bit here... for one thing, "I'm probably one of the few people who knows someone who has done Ninjutsu for the long term"... uh, you do realise there are members here who have trained in those exact arts for decades, yeah? To be completely frank, to someone like myself, and a number of others here, you are little more than a beginner when it comes to martial arts... and almost completely knowledge-less in this area.

You don't know if the class was. a poor one, so suggesting that it is is not a good idea, nor a positive one.

While you're right that Ninjutsu is not particularly geared towards getting you fit the same way that sport arts are, or going to the gym is, it is a damn sight better than not doing anything. So Aaron should be encouraged, rather than being told he should not do what he's chosen to do.

As far as disagreeing with you, yeah, I'm going to disagree with you... and that's with a few decades in the art, mate. As well as a karate background, a TKD background, training in BJJ, and a number of other things. No, you don't need to be fit to start Ninjutsu. And, as with anything, the type of fitness is geared to the activity... Ninjutsu will get you fit in the ways you need to be to train in the art successfully.

As far as the injuries, again, you don't know exactly what happened, or how it occurred... so your assumption that it was a bad class, rather than poor preparation on the OP's part, or due to his pre-existing medical condition (which wasn't mentioned initially, you may note), is not something that is necessarily supported by the actual reality.

I encourage you to recognise that the format of a forum is text based... and we are getting a part of a single version of a story here. Jumping to too many conclusions isn't helpful... and telling people to do something other than what they're interested in, regardless of your views, is simply not helpful at all.


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## gojusi (Feb 8, 2017)

Well I guess that's my first and last post on this forum. I was being helpful and for you to say I'm not being helpful is quite offensive. Regardless of how many years of experience you have, OP implied he was injured in that class. So find another Ninjutsu school, fine, but I wouldn't take those kind of injuries and return there.

Anyway, take care. I'm out.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 8, 2017)

Well... I suppose that's one way to learn from your mistakes.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Well... I suppose that's one way to learn from your mistakes.



Remember that post where you. Said more people would respect me if...  And how a conversation works? 

Read that post again.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 8, 2017)

They would respect your input more... and frankly, if you think this is the same thing, you're (again) completely off base.


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## fatninja (Feb 8, 2017)

,





adpatterson said:


> Actually I didn't even think about my joint condition at the time of going to class or writing this initially.  It's not something that I deal with on a daily basus.  I only about 5-6 years ago found that there was actually a name for it.  We were having diagnostics done on my son, they said it was genetic then interviewed me, even though we knew imeadiately after hearing genetic.



Hi Ad Patterson, I am going to chime in here, for what my advice is worth, I am 50 years old and like you I am overweight, I have joint issues, particularly both knees and right shoulder, I have a torn right bicep and chronic back pain, I only have 2 classes under my belt ,that being said, I find that taking a Glucosamine supplement helps my knees, I find the pre class stretching to be very helpful, the first two classes I always get the jitters, sometimes tempted to turn back, but I make myself go in and glad I did every time, and each class I am more and more comfortable. I believe you can still do this if you want, even with a joint condition, you chose Ninjutsu/ Budo Taijutsu for a reason, not Karate or Kung Fu,so enjoy it and embrace it,  you  just might have to alter how you train a little, but man GO FOR IT!!!!!!!! I bet  Hatsumi Sensei, being up in years has issues he overcomes and adapts to training and he moves like a spring chicken. If you need a buddy to compare experiences being as we both are starting equally, I am always here   And as an aside my weight really hasn't been an issue so far.


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## JR 137 (Feb 8, 2017)

gojusi said:


> Well I guess that's my first and last post on this forum. I was being helpful and for you to say I'm not being helpful is quite offensive. Regardless of how many years of experience you have, OP implied he was injured in that class. So find another Ninjutsu school, fine, but I wouldn't take those kind of injuries and return there.
> 
> Anyway, take care. I'm out.



Just a point of order, the quoted message is your last post, not the previous one 

But in all seriousness, Chris is Chris.  Don't get offended.  Everyone here knows him, good, bad, and indifferent.

Stick around.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 8, 2017)

gojusi said:


> Well I guess that's my first and last post on this forum. I was being helpful and for you to say I'm not being helpful is quite offensive. Regardless of how many years of experience you have, OP implied he was injured in that class. So find another Ninjutsu school, fine, but I wouldn't take those kind of injuries and return there.
> 
> Anyway, take care. I'm out.



Your intention may have been in the right place, but your information was way off base.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2017)

Aiki Lee said:


> Your intention may have been in the right place, but your information was way off base.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



And what is the correct information then?


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> They would respect your input more... and frankly, if you think this is the same thing, you're (again) completely off base.



You mean where you have just insulted posters without adding any informational content.

You are basically trolling.

Read that response. Apart from you being awesome and everyone else being ignorant what did you contribute to the discussion?

I would be surprised if you actually answer that question.

I mean fatninja who has been training two days has been more helpful.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 8, 2017)

gojusi said:


> I was being helpful and for you to say I'm not being helpful is quite offensive.


I don't think offensive means quite what you think it is...being corrected on something is not offensive, and being informed that you're not being helpful when you aren't is also not something you should be taking offense to. Now, I have no idea whether or not you are correct, but I see two options here.
1: You think you are correct and helpful. In that case, you can explain how and figure out why people are disagreeing with you.
2: You realize that you're incorrect, or the other person has more knowledge. In which case you either can leave it alone and let them explain, or ask questions to understand more.
I can't think of a third way where the appropriate response would be to inform the person they are being offensive, and leaving. 

Unless, someone actively stated you are a bad person in some way, or you do not belong here (no one said either of those), in which case that response would make more sense. If I somehow missed where they were being actively offensive please enlighten me.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 8, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And what is the correct information then?



I was referring to his description of ninjutsu. It is completely inaccurate. I'm not going to go into great detail about what ninjutsu actually is as there have been countless threads on that already.

The original post was about whether or not the OP was "man enough" to continue training in the art, referring I believe to a perceived lack of toughness.

The issue is that he will likely have similar issues with any martial art. His body will either adjust to the training or he may need to seek advice from his physician about physical activity.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chris Parker (Feb 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You mean where you have just insulted posters without adding any informational content.



Oh boy... really? Point out the insults. Our new (and, seemingly, no longer with us) member made comments that were inaccurate, based on thinking he had insider knowledge of the art after talking to someone... claiming to be "one of the few people who knows someone who has trained in Ninjutsu long term"... which was, justifiably, pointed out to be not accurate, correct, or even the best insight someone on the thread could have had.

I needed to add no more additional information, as the pertinent aspect was his lack of genuine exposure, compared to members of the forum who have actual knowledge in this field... as well as re-iterating aspects that had already been covered in the one and a half pages of this thread (seriously, it's not a long one for him to have read through first...).



drop bear said:


> You are basically trolling.



I don't think that term means what you think it does... 



drop bear said:


> Read that response. Apart from you being awesome and everyone else being ignorant what did you contribute to the discussion?



At that point, I was heading off a line of thinking that was potentially damaging to the OP's development and progress... just so you know.

That's the thing. You're seeing only a small part of the story... you're seeing someone come along, offer poorly thought out advice based on a lack of knowledge and insight, as well as ignoring a number of aspects covered in the subsequent thread (after the OP itself), who was called on it, got all butt-hurt, and decided that he didn't like having his ideas criticised, and left. The flip side is how the post made by that member could have been interpreted by the OP (or any others in a similar situation who may have read it)... basically telling them that what they were doing was bad, they were doing the wrong art, they should do something else... which is simply not helpful in the slightest. So my response wasn't to attack the new member or their viewpoint (you may notice that I explain why it's bad advice throughout, I acknowledge his good intentions, but encourage him to think a bit more about what he's in a position to say... and I also welcomed him to the forum... for me, this is incredibly cordial...), it was to help guide them to have a more productive time here, and to limit the potential damage his post could have caused.

It's always more than you think, you know... 



drop bear said:


> I would be surprised if you actually answer that question.



You're kidding, right? Do you actually read these threads, or just decide what you think is happening, and run on that false idea?

Page one, post #9. Enjoy.



drop bear said:


> I mean fatninja who has been training two days has been more helpful.



He's been encouraging to the OP... at this stage, that's what he needs, so yes, I agree he's been helpful... however, "more helpful" is rather subjective... and you may notice that much of his comments were simply more along the lines of "I'm with ya, buddy, same boat, hang in there!" (which is great). Again, page one, post 9... read.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 9, 2017)

Short on time so I have only read the first page of this thread.  I once knew a printer tech who had something that sounds similar to what you have.  I seems he had to be pretty careful not to dislocate joints.

First, as Chris Parker said, it is difficult to answer without knowing more about you and the school.  But I am surprised at the number of injuries that quick as are some others.  Also at the apparent lack of conversations from the teacher, unless you just haven't told us about that.

I really don't know that much about your medical condition.  But I am going to go out on a limb and suggest you try a striking art like Tae Kwon Do or a Karate that does not do grappling.  Since you have apparently had your medical condition most or all of your life, you would know best it you could easier do striking without dislocating joints, or not.  That would also let you in effect, exercise to get your weight down.  At 300 lbs, even with your height, you are rather overweight for break falls.  At least until you toughen up a bit, and even then you are going to be more injury prone.  Your hands and legs are important appendages for slowing you down, and likely can't at this time do that.

It is a shame that you aren't closer to Hendersonville.  You have probably noticed that member gpseymore teaches there.  From his posts over the time I have been here, I can pretty much guarantee he would be a really good instructor for you, and more attentive to your current condition.  He teaches a form of grappling, but it would probably be better for you, art wise as well as instructor wise.

But again, you may want to consider a striking art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> It is a shame that you aren't closer to Hendersonville. You have probably noticed that member gpseymore teaches there. From his posts over the time I have been here, I can pretty much guarantee he would be a really good instructor for you, and more attentive to your current condition. He teaches a form of grappling, but it would probably be better for you, art wise as well as instructor wise.


I appreciate that vote of confidence.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I appreciate that vote of confidence.



Imho you have earned it


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Imho you have earned it


How arrogant would I be if I clicked "Agree" on that one?


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## jks9199 (Feb 9, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> I'm not bashing the instructor or students.  The student that was wrecking my hand with knuckle punches was showing me over and over how to do the move.  He was very helpful or so he was trying.  My martial arts iq is extremely low so I think he was trying to dumb everything down for me, which by that time I was in so much pain I couldn't think about the moves lol.
> 
> The instructor did work with me some but did spend a better part of the time with the more experience group.  I don't mind that at all.  There were only 5 student.  3 regulars in a group and 1 regular with me.  I did feel like I may have been slowing the student with me down, he may have just been trying to hurry up an tech me the move so he could move to the other group.  Overall I like the group it was just very rough, or in my eyes it was.
> 
> I appreciate all the feed back.  If the pain goes away by next week I'm definitely going back.  I'll be more vocal about my limitations.  I'm going to start doing more conditioning.  I have a pilates machine that I'm thinking might be quite helpful with this as well as a full set of competition kettlebells.  So, I'll get to work on all this and hope to see some change soon!  Thanks all.


I've been re-reading this thread and want to call out one issue I spotted here...  I don't know who was training with you -- obviously -- but I am careful when I pair up students, especially if one is supposed to be instructing a new student.  I expect them to have the ability to work with control, and to pick up on problems, adapting to the new student's limitations.  For example, the other night, we did a bit of sparring.  I had students there ranging from black belts to one woman that was on her second class.  As I told her -- I wasn't throwing her in the deep end.  I was very careful who worked with her, and how it was done.  She had fun, she confronted some pressure and fears, went home uninjured, and will be back next week.  What I can't tell about your situation, though, is what information and feedback you were giving the student who was working with you.  That can play a big role in injuries...  I've been the guy not mentioning how badly I was being hurt by a demonstration, and paid for it with injuries.  Don't be that guy!  Let them know that it's bothering you.


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## drop bear (Feb 9, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> I've been re-reading this thread and want to call out one issue I spotted here...  I don't know who was training with you -- obviously -- but I am careful when I pair up students, especially if one is supposed to be instructing a new student.  I expect them to have the ability to work with control, and to pick up on problems, adapting to the new student's limitations.  For example, the other night, we did a bit of sparring.  I had students there ranging from black belts to one woman that was on her second class.  As I told her -- I wasn't throwing her in the deep end.  I was very careful who worked with her, and how it was done.  She had fun, she confronted some pressure and fears, went home uninjured, and will be back next week.  What I can't tell about your situation, though, is what information and feedback you were giving the student who was working with you.  That can play a big role in injuries...  I've been the guy not mentioning how badly I was being hurt by a demonstration, and paid for it with injuries.  Don't be that guy!  Let them know that it's bothering you.



Also with drills people need to abandon them.  Reset.  And try again. Rather than make them work when they are not working. 

Especially things like joint lock throws.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Also with drills people need to abandon them.  Reset.  And try again. Rather than make them work when they are not working.
> 
> Especially things like joint lock throws.


If it would let me, I'd agree with this twice.


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## adpatterson (Feb 16, 2017)

Hey guys, sorry for just now posting again.  Didn't mean for this to turn into an argument by any means.  I want to restate, the people at that dojo were extremely nice and the instructor was extremely nice and very inviting for me to come train.  I think a majority of what happened is due to my weight.  As one pointed out, putting a 300 lb whale of a man to the ground isn't the easiest landing.  I could have easily injured the shoulder and lower back there.  I know I pulled my groin doing a side roll at the start of the second practice.  I am a bit of a stubborn man myself and continued doing those until the next principle was taught.  I do know that the damage to my hand was from being punched my a knuckle punch technique,  it was done to me probably about 15X (i exaggerated early to be funny) but I assure you i grimaced in pain every time.  I personally thought my grimaces of pain when joint locks hit and such were quite evident but I may be mistaken.  All I know is it seemed every move hurt badly on that second day of training (and much of the first day as well), like my arms and wrist were being cranked way to far.  I don't blame anyone but myself.  I should have known I wasn't ready for something like that.  Ive always dreamed of doing a martial art like that and should-a tried when i was younger and extremely fix but I was focused on other sports and activities at that age.  Anyway, hopefully I can go back to that group some day when I get in better shape.  I'm currently looking for a workout buddy or trainer to keep me accountable about working out every day to try to drop these pounds.  Thanks for all the help you guys have offered!!!


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 16, 2017)

adpatterson said:


> Hey guys, sorry for just now posting again.  Didn't mean for this to turn into an argument by any means.  I want to restate, the people at that dojo were extremely nice and the instructor was extremely nice and very inviting for me to come train.  I think a majority of what happened is due to my weight.  As one pointed out, putting a 300 lb whale of a man to the ground isn't the easiest landing.  I could have easily injured the shoulder and lower back there.  I know I pulled my groin doing a side roll at the start of the second practice.  I am a bit of a stubborn man myself and continued doing those until the next principle was taught.  I do know that the damage to my hand was from being punched my a knuckle punch technique,  it was done to me probably about 15X (i exaggerated early to be funny) but I assure you i grimaced in pain every time.  I personally thought my grimaces of pain when joint locks hit and such were quite evident but I may be mistaken.  All I know is it seemed every move hurt badly on that second day of training (and much of the first day as well), like my arms and wrist were being cranked way to far.  I don't blame anyone but myself.  I should have known I wasn't ready for something like that.  Ive always dreamed of doing a martial art like that and should-a tried when i was younger and extremely fix but I was focused on other sports and activities at that age.  Anyway, hopefully I can go back to that group some day when I get in better shape.  I'm currently looking for a workout buddy or trainer to keep me accountable about working out every day to try to drop these pounds.  Thanks for all the help you guys have offered!!!


Your weight was almost certainly a factor, but I can guarantee it's not the only one or an inherent disqualifier for training. I have had multiple training partners in the 300 pound range, some of whom have done quite well. It sounds like you also have issues with joint stability, strength, and flexibility which were also major factors.

That said, once you're healed up you can still train relatively safely without waiting until you lose a bunch of weight and get into shape. The key is to recognize your limitations and work with them accordingly.

Some suggestions along those lines ...

Inform your instructor of your physical limitations and health issues before you start class. Also let your training partners know that you need to take things easy due to health restrictions.

Be sure to warm up thoroughly before each training session. Stretching is not a warm up. Warming up means actually raising your temperature and ideally getting a little bit of sweat going.

It sounds like you aren't yet ready to handle receiving a technique such as a joint lock in conjunction with going to the ground. That's okay - practice them separately. You can practice basic breakfalls from a squatting position, then gradually work your way up to slow rolls from a squatting position, then breakfalss from standing, then rolls from standing, then eventually taking the fall while someone is applying a technique to you. In the meantime, when drilling techniques with a partner, tap out as soon as you feel the lock coming on that would force you to the ground. If the technique being drilled is an actual throw, sit that one out and drill your breakfalls.

If you are receiving a technique that significantly hurts each time (such as the strike to your hand), ask your training partner to soften it up rather than just grimacing.

Not all schools are willing to work with someone who needs to take things that slowly, but many are. Don't give up too soon. (However, do get your current injuries healed up before going back.)


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Your weight was almost certainly a factor, but I can guarantee it's not the only one or an inherent disqualifier for training. I have had multiple training partners in the 300 pound range, some of whom have done quite well. It sounds like you also have issues with joint stability, strength, and flexibility which were also major factors.
> 
> That said, once you're healed up you can still train relatively safely without waiting until you lose a bunch of weight and get into shape. The key is to recognize your limitations and work with them accordingly.
> 
> ...



Idley curious what do you think of this from a safety point of view?
It looks like the techniques described.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Idley curious what do you think of this from a safety point of view?
> It looks like the techniques described.


It all depends on how they are trained. The techniques Hatsumi is showing the clip aren't the same as the ones the OP is talking about, but they are related.  In the clip, Hatsumi is demonstrating on experienced practitioners - he's going a little snappier than you would want to for drilling reps, but his demo dummies know how to handle it. Also it's a demo and such things are generally hammed up a bit for sales purposes.

Regarding the version of the "punching the punch" technique that the OP was practicing when he got his hand broken: I accidentally broke a training partner's hand while demonstrating that same technique about 30 years ago. Contributing factors: I was clueless and unaware, my training partner was being macho and stiff, refusing to move and react to the technique, and we were both showing off for the same woman. It is possible to drill the technique safely, but it helps to have better guidance from instructors than we had at the time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Idley curious what do you think of this from a safety point of view?
> It looks like the techniques described.


Mostly light contact and well-controlled, and it seems to be what they are expecting, so no real safety concerns I saw. Some of it looked unpleasant, but training is at times. Some of those quick locks (the strike to the back of the arm to lock the elbow) wouldn't be a good idea to get on a too-frequent basis, but I suspect that's not how they do those every time they practice.


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## adpatterson (Aug 7, 2018)

Hello all, I’ve revived this post to let you guys know I’ve lost 85lbs in last 3-4 months.  I was hoping to make an attempt at the martial art again.  There was a gentleman here that trained Bujinkan in Charlotte NC an I was hoping he may show up with information on that club as my attempts to reach them have failed.  Thanks much!

Aaron


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## drop bear (Aug 7, 2018)

adpatterson said:


> Hello all, I’ve revived this post to let you guys know I’ve lost 85lbs in last 3-4 months.  I was hoping to make an attempt at the martial art again.  There was a gentleman here that trained Bujinkan in Charlotte NC an I was hoping he may show up with information on that club as my attempts to reach them have failed.  Thanks much!
> 
> Aaron



Nice work on the weight loss.


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## Steve (Aug 7, 2018)

adpatterson said:


> Hello all, I’ve revived this post to let you guys know I’ve lost 85lbs in last 3-4 months.  I was hoping to make an attempt at the martial art again.  There was a gentleman here that trained Bujinkan in Charlotte NC an I was hoping he may show up with information on that club as my attempts to reach them have failed.  Thanks much!
> 
> Aaron


Way to go!


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 7, 2018)

adpatterson said:


> Hello all, I’ve revived this post to let you guys know I’ve lost 85lbs in last 3-4 months.  I was hoping to make an attempt at the martial art again.  There was a gentleman here that trained Bujinkan in Charlotte NC an I was hoping he may show up with information on that club as my attempts to reach them have failed.  Thanks much!
> 
> Aaron


Wow so great to hear. Glad you gave us the update.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2018)

adpatterson said:


> Hello all, I’ve revived this post to let you guys know I’ve lost 85lbs in last 3-4 months.  I was hoping to make an attempt at the martial art again.  There was a gentleman here that trained Bujinkan in Charlotte NC an I was hoping he may show up with information on that club as my attempts to reach them have failed.  Thanks much!
> 
> Aaron


Good to see you back! Good work on the fitness, and if you're in the Charlotte area, give me a holler sometime - I'm only a couple of hours away.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 7, 2018)

Congratulations!!!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 7, 2018)

adpatterson said:


> Hello all, I’ve revived this post to let you guys know I’ve lost 85lbs in last 3-4 months.  I was hoping to make an attempt at the martial art again.  There was a gentleman here that trained Bujinkan in Charlotte NC an I was hoping he may show up with information on that club as my attempts to reach them have failed.  Thanks much!
> 
> Aaron


That is an impressive accomplishment, sir!  Well done, and keep at it!


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## Chris Parker (Aug 8, 2018)

adpatterson said:


> Hello all, I’ve revived this post to let you guys know I’ve lost 85lbs in last 3-4 months.  I was hoping to make an attempt at the martial art again.  There was a gentleman here that trained Bujinkan in Charlotte NC an I was hoping he may show up with information on that club as my attempts to reach them have failed.  Thanks much!
> 
> Aaron



Fantastic work!

With regards to the Bujinkan dojo... there appear to be a couple of Bujinkan dojo in Charlotte, NC... have you tried their facebook pages? The one that seems to be most recently updated, and is more likely to be responsive, is this one: Charlotte Bujinkan Dojo

Hopefully if you send them a message, you'll get an answer soon!


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## now disabled (Aug 8, 2018)

adpatterson said:


> Hello all, I’ve revived this post to let you guys know I’ve lost 85lbs in last 3-4 months.  I was hoping to make an attempt at the martial art again.  There was a gentleman here that trained Bujinkan in Charlotte NC an I was hoping he may show up with information on that club as my attempts to reach them have failed.  Thanks much!
> 
> Aaron




Well done with the weight loss that is truly a feat in itself and you should be proud of that.

I cannot speak to anything connected to the Bunjinkan as it not my Art.

However you seem to have had a bit of a rough time for whatever reasons. You have to look after yourself as number one priority. Any MA has to come second everytime as it is not a necessity. 

That said I am disabled now (hence the handle) and I did go back on the mat a few days ago now (ok it was because of a thread and something piqued my interest and I had to find out ) and yes it was tough (jeez even my hakama I had to get tied for me ) but as the other yudansha there were fully aware of how I was (condition wise) they adapted to that. I did try to breakfall and take ukemi but it was really impossible and I had to not only admit that to them but to myself as well ...the hardest part was admitting it to myself as at my rank, I should and used to be able to, well I used to, I had to say no I can't do that as I gotta be able to walk out of here (well limp lol) as I have the real world to live in and that requires I function at a certain level. I did manage to be nage with some limitations and I achieved what I set out to achieve (ok it shocked the crap outta a nidan as he wasn't expecting it lol) and it did feel good to be on the mat again, so if I can you can ok ramble finished about me ...
 To apply that to yourself sir ... You are a fairly big guy so you are going to have to learn to break fall ( as @gpseymour said you have bigger mass so it gonna come down harder)  and to take ukemi (you stated you wanted to be a good uke -side note I view break fall and ukemi not as the same thing some will argue that but that is something you don't need to get into, well not yet lol- ) now learning to breakfall may sound simple ie just watch and do it , well with your size and with the injuries issues you may have it imo has to be taken slowly and broken down into the various parts and if you can nail all the separate parts then put them together bit by bit when it finally comes to "doing one" it should be all there and come together, however take your time and do not rush it as it is important and just as much as learning the super cool flashy or any other techs as if you cannot protect yourself then you not gonna learn a heck of a lot as you be bashed up and recovering. Now Ukemi that can be easier and more difficult -yes a paradox I am aware of that- taking ukemi to me means receiving a tech and being able to do so in a way that the nage gets what he needs and you get what you need (ie not hurt) and that may involve a break fall it may not (again saying that will possibly get me jumped on but ignore that I can well take care of myself that way ) what I would do and not just in class is work on your flexibility not just basic but things like your wrists, knees, elbows, fingers etc as if you do when locks are applied there they will be easier to take for you and be less problematic for the nage as in he will not have to eventually take it so easy which in turn benefits everyone- well at least I think so- There are plenty vids on line you can source from all different arts that deal with that kind of thing (just don't think your gonna do the Shoalin bit for a while ) and watch them and take it slow also ask your instructor his opinion and his advice, that is what he there for, and work away slowly and diligently at home and at the dojo, rome was not built in a day by any means and your priority (with the issues you have stated) is your own body it can't be replaced (ok bits can ) and it is that body you require not just for MA but to function in daily life and that sir has to be the number one. Now rolling (yes that can be part of a breakfal or used instead of one etc etc etc ) again break that down into it's parts and nail it bit by bit , a forward rol or a backward one may sound a piece of p**s but in MA it a bit different and well as you will find out in your journey can be used not only to save your own *** but to provide you with a means to recover fast to continue (ok and to get back in the "game") so break it down as it not like the rolls you learned at gym class in school (well not the gym classes I did anyway ) again look on line there are vids that will show you the ways and how to break it down, again ask your Instructor to break it down if you can't and if he can't then he shouldn't be teaching. Again get each part nailed and then put them together but when you do start off low to ground even down on one knee. Don't rush it do do proper rolls is not just as easy as one may think, a side note if your doing them at home then just watch where you are doing them, oh and the breakfalls to as doing them at first ain't a good idea on hard surfaces or ones with stones (oh you will hear many a tale of the guys doing them on the hard surfaces and with pebbles around and grit but ignore that as at the start you roll on a pebble trust me it bloody hurts or you slam your hand on the hard ground and you be saying ouch ) so be aware (not being nasty) and lastly ignore the feather falls and the high breakfalls on the vids they come way down the line and if you are tempted don't be as you might break your neck and the ace first ones just don't. General fitness well start walking etc you already lost that weight which is a feat on it's own so start slow and build it up and lastly eat right as doing any MA (ok not all) will burn up extra calories and you need to put the right fuel in to get the body to have the reserves to put out.

Sorry for the rant and ramble but do not give up sir just take it slow and you will get on the path you want.

Just a thought to close there are other arts that are not so demanding as the Bunjinkan is (from what I have seen) so if it does not suit or you cannot find a good school ( I mean one that will cater for your start up needs as where you were with so few students it might be a bit more of a challenge again that depends on he instructor and the atmosphere of the dojo and other students ethos ) then do not give up there are plenty other arts that involve grappling,striking, sword etc.

best of luck on your path and you are on that path now so stick with it and I hope MA is as rewarding to you as it has been for me


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## Ryan_ (Aug 8, 2018)

Wasn't on the site at the time of OP but I'll answer for future readers regardless, also I am currently practicing bujinkan ninjutsu.

You should NOT receive injuries like that during training - There may be an odd case here and there but absolutely nothing out of the ordinary.

Especially with your first lessons, locks in our dojo are shown a couple times, then practiced in pairs with the students. We go gentle, and just hard enough to knock people down at the start. It speeds up a little after that but NEVER to the point where you are causing injuries to others. 

There was a new student at my dojo recently, he felt some pain during joint locks, but not to a point where he would have injuries and was happy enough to be coming back.


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## JB28205 (Aug 12, 2018)

I want to follow-up and maybe end-cap? this post by saying that Aaron (Sorry if I have your name wrong) contacted me directly about training with our group again. I find it unusual that someone that received so much damage from 2 very basic classes is interested in coming back to the same venue. Aaron, there are many, many martial arts schools in Charlotte. There are 2 jiujitsu schools less than 1 mile from my own house as well as a krav-maga school and an mma gym. If you truly believe that you received the list of injuries you claimed, from a particular bujinkan dojo, it would be foolish to go back. One of the jiujitsu schools and the mma gym have fitness classes specifically geared towards getting people in shape for their particular martial art as well.

The dojo Aaron came to is very low key. Other bujinkan students come to study with us occasionally and they seem more physical and intense. I always wonder if we train too softly, but we do it for safety. There are never more than 5 students in class, in a venue that is a 2 car garage. Our shidoshi is a teacher that is officially recognized by Hatsumi sensei and the bujinkan dojo. He has a good relationship with many of the higher ranked members of the bujinkan. As far as I know, no one else has ever been injured in our classes.

The OP, Aaron, sat around for 30-45 minutes after his 2nd class, talking to the other students and seemed genuinely interested. Keep that interest, Aaron, and find a school or program that makes you happy. Train and learn and keep yourself healthy. It's obviously not with us, and that's okay.

As good people, we want to support a victim. We have read a story and assumed its veracity.


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## dvcochran (Aug 12, 2018)

adpatterson said:


> This is Bujinkan Ninjutsu in Charlotte NC.  Yes this is drills only and no sparing, just instructional.  I know my fitness level caused most of my discomfort but are overweight individuals frowned upon in MA because they lack the ability to be a good uke?  Im not sure if I should just get some DVD's to watch and practice at home until I can lose some weight.  I like the part of having people to go work with and feel a part of something.  Being at home by myself will be much harder to stick with and be successful.


Very much agree. It is difficult for the majority of  "average" weight people to workout regularly, whether it is because of their schedule of just a lack of want-to. Working out alone, especially when just starting out is tough and tougher to stay motivated. Not sure why but you seem set on Ninjutsu even though it is quite a distance away. I never discourage an overweight person from working out and I am mindful to monitor them more closely, at least early on, to make sure they are doing ok. I suggest you talk to the instructor and hear his explanation and expectations. It sounds like you really got messed up from only two classes so it doesn't sound like the right place for you.


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## Hakkan Mordrake (Feb 15, 2021)

There's no age limit for training in espionage.


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## Ivan (Feb 15, 2021)

adpatterson said:


> but are overweight individuals frowned upon in MA because they lack the ability to be a good uke?  .


I feel as if overweight ukes are much more useful for demonstrating techniques. When I do open up a school of my own, I would certainly prefer overweight or hyper muscular ukes; it's all fine and dandy to demonstrate techniques on people shorter and lighter than you, but how would you demonstrate how your technique matches up against opponents heavier, stronger and taller than you?


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## jobo (Feb 15, 2021)

Ivan said:


> I feel as if overweight ukes are much more useful for demonstrating techniques. When I do open up a school of my own, I would certainly prefer overweight or hyper muscular ukes; it's all fine and dandy to demonstrate techniques on people shorter and lighter than you, but how would you demonstrate how your technique matches up against opponents heavier, stronger and taller than you?


a few points,

before you demonstrate,  they do work on such, you need to be confinent they actually do work on bigger stronger people and using students isnt the best way to know that they are actually fully resisting, there a confamation bias that they want to know it works,  so they help a little or a lot .

second, it may work for you, but not others, technques can be regarded as force multipliers, what you get out is heavily dependent on what you can put in, your young, very fit and strong , its very difficult to replicate,  someone less so and still say the technique works

and third you dont want to be using the overweight  as a crash test dummy, whilst there are some remarkably fit fat people, they make up a small % just pulling them against their 300lb body weight may well injure them, its not just you that need to be capable of moving their weight, they have to be capable of resisting  their own weight being moved with out injury

which is i suspect the problem,  that the long departed op was having


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 15, 2021)

Ivan said:


> I feel as if overweight ukes are much more useful for demonstrating techniques. When I do open up a school of my own, I would certainly prefer overweight or hyper muscular ukes; it's all fine and dandy to demonstrate techniques on people shorter and lighter than you, but how would you demonstrate how your technique matches up against opponents heavier, stronger and taller than you?


It's good to be able to demonstrate on different folks. I shy away from using overweight folks too much for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the falls are typically harder on them. Secondly, if they are significantly overweight, techniques may require some adjustment. I want to teach the most general form of the technique first, then teach how to vary it. Also, it's harder to slow things down and show specific points when the uke isn't able to hold a mid-point position (or I'm unable to support their weight to show the position). All of this can be true with heavily muscled people, as well. I had a training partner who was a bodybuilder, and his flexibility was crap, as was his ability to hold a position (due to flexibility). Of course, he was pretty dense, so harder to support while stopping than someone else his height.


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