# Tibetan White Crane and Related Arts



## dlcox (Jan 29, 2015)

For those interested in serious discussion on the "Tibetan" arts and arts that are related:

We could start with "Seed" forms and/or "Pillar" sets specific to lineage. My main lineage is as follows:

I'll use the Reverend Sheng Long Lao Zong as a starting point.

Sheng long Lao Zong - Huang Lin Kai - Wu Jian Hua - Kuang Zui Han - Me

Huang Lin Kai was also of this Huadu Hong Jia Quan Lineage:

Hong Xi Guan - Tan Min - Huang Lin Kai

Wu Jin Hua also was of the Zhanjiang Hong Jia Quan lineage coming from Yang Fang.

Our major sets:

1. Liu Lu Jiu Zhang Zong Quan - 6 Principles 9 Characteristics Ancestral Fist

2. Jin Shizi Kou Da Gui Quan - Golden Lion Captures & Strikes a Ghost Fist

3. Bai He Kun Di Long Quan - White Crane & Dragon Rolling on the Ground Fist

4. Bai He Xiao yue Gong Quan - White Crane Small Moon Skills Fist

5. Budai Fo Qinna Shou Quan - Seizing & Controlling Hands of the Cloth Sack Buddha Fist

6. Mian Chuan Li Zhen Bao Quan - Cotton Thread Wrapped around a Needle Fist

These are the old names for the forms, they have been since shortened to:

1. Liu Lu Zong Quan - 6 Routes Ancestral Fist

2. Shizi Kou Da Quan - 10 Character Capture & Strike Fist

3. Long Quan - Dragon Fist

4. Bai He Gong Quan - White Crane Skills Fist

5. Qinna Shou Quan - Seizing & Controlling Hands Fist

6. Mian Li Zhen Quan - Needle in Cotton Fist

These forms constitute 2 divisions known as the Pusa Fa & Fo Fa divisions. They are cross pattern sets and are very different than the main stream Hong Kong branch of TWC. Each form is based upon one of the 6 tantric yogas as propagated by Naropa & Niguma. The only real "Tibetan" influence is the "Internal Engine", the art is very much Chinese. Of these forms it is said in our tradition that the Bai He Xiao Yue Gong Quan is the oldest and is very much a reworking of Trulkhor (Yantra Yoga). Until the creation of the Liu Lu Jiu Zhang Zong Quan it was the first Taolu taught. This has since been reserved for discipleship.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 29, 2015)

I'm guessing you are using Mandarin as you mentioned earlier.  While I do not speak any Chinese, I am more familiar with the Cantonese in this context.  I've figured out some of those names, but others are lost on me.  I recognize Sing Lung Lama, and Wong Lum Hoi, not really any others.

I am a student of Quentin Fong in San Francisco.  I had been a student of one of his early students for about a decade, then was introduced to Sifu Quentin in early 2009.  He agreed to take me as his student and join his small group training in his back yard.  Sifu began his training around the age of ten or twelve, I believe it was 1950.  He was a student of Luk Chi Fu, and Tang Ja Meng.  Both of those men were students of Ng Siu Jung, Tang Ja Meng was his adopted son.

Our sets are as follows, from beginner to more advanced:

Lok lik kuen
Chuit yap Bo kuen
Tiet lien kuen
Bak hok kuen

Intermediate level
Lok Lok kuen intermediate variation
Siu gum gong
Siu lohan
Siu Ng ying

Advanced and disciple levels
Gum gong
Lohan
Lohan comes out of cave
Tien gong
Cotton needle
Kham na
Might be a couple others, I don't have the list I front of me.  I've learned the sets thru the intermediate level.

Sifu also likes the standing post meditation, Jham Jong, I'm not really sure how to spell it.  Honestly, I don't really understand that part much.

He stresses the waist turning a lot and basics.  That is clearly more important to him than the sets.

You made some comments in the other theead, if I understand you correctly you fel that TWC has the same origin and is essentially the same as Fukien white crane?  I've never heard that suggestion before.  Certainly they will share common principles tho they may be expressed differently, but that's not the same as being the same thing.


----------



## clfsean (Jan 29, 2015)

I practice Lama Pai from Chan Tai San's line (Sing Lung - Wong Lam Hoi/Wong Lam Yan - Jyu Jik Chyuhn - Chan Tai San - Steve Ventura - Russel Feldman).


----------



## dlcox (Jan 29, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm guessing you are using Mandarin as you mentioned earlier.  While I do not speak any Chinese, I am more familiar with the Cantonese in this context.  I've figured out some of those names, but others are lost on me.  I recognize Sing Lung Lama, and Wong Lum Hoi, not really any others.
> 
> I am a student of Quentin Fong in San Francisco.  I had been a student of one of his early students for about a decade, then was introduced to Sifu Quentin in early 2009.  He agreed to take me as his student and join his small group training in his back yard.  Sifu began his training around the age of ten or twelve, I believe it was 1950.  He was a student of Luk Chi Fu, and Tang Ja Meng.  Both of those men were students of Ng Siu Jung, Tang Ja Meng was his adopted son.
> 
> ...


 
According to the oral legends of my branch and our lineage chart, Wu Mei (Ng Mui) was a monk known as Jin Bo Liu Tou (Golden Alms Bowl Liu Tou) and he was a 3rd or 4th generation inheritor of Bai He Pai from founder Fang Qiniang. The Tibetan part of the art was the unique methods of Qigong that he learned from the Wen family as passed on by Zhong Ka Ba - A Da Tuo Jin - Dou Luo Ji Tan - Kai Lan Fo etc. It is composed of 2 methods of transmission, Form & Loose Technique. The Loose Technique, or San Shi, was what was mainly taught to the guardian monks of Tibet, simple practical methods of indigenous striking & grappling. The Qigong was reserved for higher learned monks and Lamas as part of their religious training. The art passed through 4 generations of the Wen family prior to Jin Bo learning the art. Wu Mei (Jin Bo Liu Tou) is considered the one who fused the 2 methods and is the one who taught Sheng Long Lao Zong. This would have been in the early to mid 1800's, as according to our tradition Sheng Long died around 1900 at 100 years of age. Also according to my research based upon stories that I've been told, Sheng Long Lao Zong could have been one of the 5 elders known as Qing Ru Hu De Di. A lot of our philosophy mirrors that of the Hong Men society and the Bai Lian society. Both of these organizations were heavily influenced by the Mizong philosophy which has it's roots in Daoism, Bonism, Lamaism etc.

The early Mizong tradition of the art stems from the Indian art of Kalaripayettu, which was imported to Tibet via Buddhist teachings, a major aspect of that art is Yantra Yoga, known in Tibet as Trulkhor and Sku Mnye. Trul Khor and Sku Mnye are also influenced by the indigenous practices of the Bonpa practitioners that practiced shamanism and are considered to be the well spring from which Daoism was created. This was passed on by the Nyingpa's who learned it from Padmasambhava and Naropa. They laid the foundation for Qin Na as a healing method through the teachings of Indian Marma Adi and Tibetan Sku Mnye.


----------



## dlcox (Jan 29, 2015)

I'll write more on the lineage in detail later explaining how the connections are made, but for now lets discuss fundamentals of each branch. I think a good place to start would be the Liu Li Quan (Luk Lik Kuen). My version actually contains the 6 Principles (aka: 6 Strengths; Straight, Uppercut, Hook, Hammer, Backfist & Claw) and the 9 Characteristics / Compositions which are the 8 Aggressive Punches (Straight, Uppercut, Hook, Hammer, Backfist, Scrape, Cannon and Leak) + the Claw Hand. In my lineage the 6 Principles are driven by the 6 exercises of Naropa (Hooking, Shaking, Straightening, Breathing, Stretching & Circling) and are united by what we call Yuan Gong, which is similar to the threading exercises found in Ba Gua Zhang and the Single Hoof exercise in Yong Chun. It gets way more in-depth than this.....On a fundamental level it is large frame as one becomes more experienced it becomes small frame, my Shifu always told me that our art is based upon a 2 inch circle.


----------



## KPM (Jan 30, 2015)

Very interesting Dave!  Thanks for posting.  Do you have any video clips?  I would love to see it in action!


----------



## dlcox (Jan 30, 2015)

KPM said:


> Very interesting Dave!  Thanks for posting.  Do you have any video clips?  I would love to see it in action!


 
Hi Keith, how have you been? Sorry to say that currently I don't have any clips. If I get some time I will try to put something up.


----------



## dlcox (Jan 30, 2015)

Keith,

I'm guessing here, but I assume you find the Yuan Gong of interest as I mentioned that it is similar to the Single Hoof exercise as found in the Shen Qi Gui Yuan Fa Qigong of Ruan (Yuen) family Yong Chun. In Tibetan White Crane this particular movement (Single Hoof) is a fundamental exercise that can be used in conjunction with the Mu Er Pai (Wooden Ear Plates). These are kind of like Stone Locks. The major difference is that in Crane we do the movement not only single handed but also double handed and in forward and reverse. The actual Yuan Gong are a series of 10 specific movements that guide and dictate bridge use as well as exiting and entering strategies and are a true treasure of my lineage. The Single Hoof, known in Crane as Mei Nu Chuan Zhen (Fair Maiden Threads a Needle) is a combination of the Yuan Gong movements based upon the 6 Exercises and express the usage and energy of the bridge when contact is made. My Shifu always referred to it as like knitting or weaving, very similar to the concept of Chi Shou without prolonged contact, more of a "Touch and Go" sort of thing. It is not performed as a two person drill, one is to extrapolate the techniques based upon position of the bridge in relation to one's own body as the "Position" is relative to the opponent and his technique, if that makes sense. It is basically an individual exercise highlighting the major bridges and how one can flow from one to the next, they cannot necessarily be used in the manner the exercise is performed, hence no prearranged 2 man drills. That is why one must freeform the bridgework once it is learned, that way all the variations and combinations can be expressed. From there one can see how all the movements, strikes, locks, bridges, throws etc. can flow from one to the next. IMO an important concept when things don't go as planned or if you muff up an application. This is all part of the Shiba Dou Luo Shou (18 Gauze Wrapping Hands). It's kind of like Chi Shou, Tui Shou and Pummeling all combined. It lends itself well to grappling and throwing as these were the major emphasis of Tibetan martial arts. The important thing is structure just as with Yong Chun, without the proper structure things breakdown. We also use a lot of forward pressure and what we call "Wet Cloths" or "Glue Body". This is essentially Bi Ma (Pressing Horse) used like Chi Shou. One is to stick to the person like glue or hang on them like wet cloths, to give no quarter, this is part of the first principle called "Ruthlessness". The concepts of Float, Sink, Spit and Swallow are utilized.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Keith,
> 
> I'm guessing here, but I assume you find the Yuan Gong of interest as I mentioned that it is similar to the Single Hoof exercise as found in the Shen Qi Gui Yuan Fa Qigong of Ruan (Yuen) family Yong Chun. In Tibetan White Crane this particular movement (Single Hoof) is a fundamental exercise that can be used in conjunction with the Mu Er Pai (Wooden Ear Plates). These are kind of like Stone Locks. The major difference is that in Crane we do the movement not only single handed but also double handed and in forward and reverse. The actual Yuan Gong are a series of 10 specific movements that guide and dictate bridge use as well as exiting and entering strategies and are a true treasure of my lineage. The Single Hoof, known in Crane as Mei Nu Chuan Zhen (Fair Maiden Threads a Needle) is a combination of the Yuan Gong movements based upon the 6 Exercises and express the usage and energy of the bridge when contact is made. My Shifu always referred to it as like knitting or weaving, very similar to the concept of Chi Shou without prolonged contact, more of a "Touch and Go" sort of thing. It is not performed as a two person drill, one is to extrapolate the techniques based upon position of the bridge in relation to one's own body as the "Position" is relative to the opponent and his technique, if that makes sense. It is basically an individual exercise highlighting the major bridges and how one can flow from one to the next, they cannot necessarily be used in the manner the exercise is performed, hence no prearranged 2 man drills. That is why one must freeform the bridgework once it is learned, that way all the variations and combinations can be expressed. From there one can see how all the movements, strikes, locks, bridges, throws etc. can flow from one to the next. IMO an important concept when things don't go as planned or if you muff up an application. This is all part of the Shiba Dou Luo Shou (18 Gauze Wrapping Hands). It's kind of like Chi Shou, Tui Shou and Pummeling all combined. It lends itself well to grappling and throwing as these were the major emphasis of Tibetan martial arts. The important thing is structure just as with Yong Chun, without the proper structure things breakdown. We also use a lot of forward pressure and what we call "Wet Cloths" or "Glue Body". This is essentially Bi Ma (Pressing Horse) used like Chi Shou. One is to stick to the person like glue or hang on them like wet cloths, to give no quarter, this is part of the first principle called "Ruthlessness". The concepts of Float, Sink, Spit and Swallow are utilized.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2015)

Error post a moment ago, my apologies.

I know the name Ng Mui for the Wing Chun and Fukien crane history, but I've never seen it connected to the Tibetan.  

Our tradition holds that the method was begun by Ordator lama who had trained in local Tibetan grappling methods.  Later, he witnessed a battle between a crane and a "mountain ape", which battle the crane won.  Ordator was inspired by what he witnessed and began development of what he called "Lions Roar".  This,of course, later became what we have today in White Crane, Hop Ga, and Lama Pai.

The story goes on to say that Ordator captured the injured monkey, doctored its injuries and kept it as a pet.  He was able to further study the animal's behavior and use it in developing his method.

I've always viewed these stories as an oral mythology that may or may not be based in truth.  My casual research suggests that these events COULD have happened, but I do not believe there is any direct evidence or documentation.  The large macaques that live in the Tibet mountains do raid bird nests for eggs.  This could have been the basis for the conflict that Ordator witnessed with one of the Black Necked cranes that live in the Tibetan highlands.  A vigilant parent crane would have been vigorously defending its nest from a raiding macaque.  Cranes can be extremely aggressive under these circumstances and have been documented facing down much larger animals that get too close to the nest.  I've also seen documented instances of Tibetan locals keeping a macaque as a pet.  So the possibility certainly exists that this event took place and that Ordator took the monkey into his home.

I've seen alternate versions of the story, including that the conflict was between a crane and a tiger, and even a crane and a yeti.  Sooooo, yeah, mythology.

In later generations, Sing Long Lama brought the method into China, but admittedly there are some generations that are not accounted for, so what happened during that time is unknown.  Ordator is placed, I believe, in the 14th or 15th century.

So that is the history that I've commonly seen connected to the Tibetan method.  I've never seen it suggested that it shares the same history with the Fukien method.  In fact it has always in my experience been specific about being something separate from the Fukien method with a different history.


----------



## clfsean (Jan 30, 2015)

FC ... same origin stories for us. Ah Dat Lama saw a fight between a crane & an ape ... later to Sing Lung to Southern China & our from there.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2015)

clfsean said:


> FC ... same origin stories for us. Ah Dat Lama saw a fight between a crane & an ape ... later to Sing Lung to Southern China & our from there.


Yup, certain details may vary but the overall story is consistent.

I have always been curious to know what happened between the time of Ordator and the time of Sing Long.  Makes me wonder if there are other hidden lineages out there in Tibet and Nepal and the regions around there, that established prior to the time of Sing Long.

In the end, the mythology is meant to give an identity to the method, and is more important as such.  It's true historical fact, while nice if it exists, is less important as long as we recognize these stories as a type of folklore.

Some of these stories are simply invented, because nobody wants to know that their method was developed by the village **** shoveler.  It's far more romantic and impressive to believe it was developed by a famous general or a mysterious monk lost in history.  So they should be recognized as folklore, even if there is truth to them.

But in the end, we've always had a separate story from the Fukien method, tho if I remember correctly there may be some parallels there as well.  Wasn't there a fight between a crane and snake?  And this lead to the development of a superior method.  If memory serves.  Seems to me that these can be seen as archetypal themes in folklore.  We see the flood in the bible and we see the flood in Gilgamesh.  Same thing, archetypal themes in folklore, seen in different cultures.


----------



## dlcox (Jan 30, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Error post a moment ago, my apologies.
> 
> I know the name Ng Mui for the Wing Chun and Fukien crane history, but I've never seen it connected to the Tibetan.
> 
> ...



Adatuojin (Dai Dot Lama, Ordator) same individual. Here is the list of Tibetan teachers:

Zhong Ka Ba - Zhu Ba Je - A Da Tuo Jin - Dou Luo Ji Tan - Qi Lan Fo

Zhong Ka Ba (1357-1419) was a famous monk that taught the first Dalai Lama. Zhu Ba Je (1365-1438, aka: Gong Gut) was his student. He became the 3rd Abbot of Ganden monastery and the first Panchen Lama. A Da Tuo Jin (1426-1519, aka: Dai Dot Lama) considered the founder of "Lions Roar" created the art on the orders of the first Dalai Lama to "Create an art to rid the world of evil"....enter standard mythology here (crane & ape story). Actual story in brief: A Da Tuo Jin was born to a nomadic family that traveled around the Mongolian, Tibetan, Russian and Turkistan borders. His family was killed by bandits that invaded their home. Orphaned he was taken in by his uncle, who having a family already could not support him and sent him off to the Qian Jin Fo monastery. At a young age A Da Tuo Jin showed great aptitude for Buddhist scriptures and gained the attention of Zhu Ba Je. He took his vows at the age of 15 and was considered very skilled in wrestling and often bested older monks. His fame in martial arts spread and at the age of 30 he was approached by Gedun Chub (1391-1474) the first Dalai Lama and asked to create a martial art that embodied Tibetan beliefs and would serve to unify the country. He left on pilgrimage and traveled for 50 years learning various arts all throughout Asia, Middle East, India and Africa. He returned home at roughly 80 years of age. When he arrived back in Tibet and his monastery no one believed him that he was who he said he was saying that man had died long ago. A Da Tuo Jin, to prove himself, challenged the best fighter in the monastery, a man named Dou Luo Ji Tan. Dou Luo Ji Tan did not take the old man seriously at first but after being soundly thrashed by the old man begged his forgiveness and asked to become his disciple. A Da Tuo Jin declined saying that he had not yet fulfilled his obligation to H.H. Gedun Chub. He took a council of adepts with him and retreated to an isolated temple near Mt. Meru to formulate his art. For several months the old man beat these adepts on a daily basis trying to figure out the puzzle of how to meld his art with Buddhist scripture. One day while meditating beside a small mountain lake he witnessed the fight between the crane and ape. On his way back to the temple his young adepts ambushed him in retaliation for their months of abuse, without thought he swiftly defeated them. At that moment he found inspiration and reflected upon the fight between the crane and ape and came to the realization that he had used the techniques of these two animals to defeat the hooligans. (This part of the story is an allegory, it is based upon the many years war between Nepal and Tibet and can be read in the poem called "Monkey's and Birds". This poem talks about how the monkey's (Nepalese) were constantly invading the birds (Tibetans) territory and stealing food. A Da Tuo Jin's art is more than likely most heavily influenced by this event and more likely than not the inspiration for the art came from the styles employed during this war). After his eureka moment he stood atop the mountain pointed one hand towards the sky and the other to the earth and shouted "Under Heaven and Earth Only I am the Venerable One!" which is a quote of the Buddha himself, the Lion's Roar. At that point it is said that hell cracked open and all of the demons fled in terror scattering the the furthest corners of the world. Again this is an allegory, it is paying homage to the Buddha and his spiritual teachings, claims of superiority, etc. Dou Lou Ji Tan became his first his first disciple. Yada, yada, yada......There is lots more about these individuals and their exploits. Many of the stories are heavily embellished as is par for the course in story telling.

Dou Luo Ji Tan (Dorawkitan, Logut One) taught Qi Lan Fo (Kay Lam Buddha). Qi Lan Fo was the last of the Tibetan masters and is the one that introduced the art to China during the early Qing dynasty as an emissary of the Khan. From here it was passed on to......forgive me as I will not publicly list the generation of Chinese master that passed the art on from here. It is not common knowledge. Most lineages in this art are missing a large chunk of the line of transmission anywhere from 4-6 generations, and I am simply not that generous to give this information out as many in Lama Pai, Xia Jia and Bai He Pai have not been very kind towards me. Many want it, even have demanded it but until my trust is earned I will only give out what I want, so please excuse me for being cautious and leery.

Matters concerning Wu Mei (aka: Jin Bo Liu Tou, aka: Jickbowloktow). The Liu Tou (Wu Mei) story is varied, but in my lineage he was a monk not a nun. It is said that the title Wu Mei (5 Plums) was a military title / rank. He was supposedly in the military and a Ming loyalist who supported the Hong Men society.  It is said that he was a practitioner of Yong Chun Bai He Quan (Eternal Springtime White Crane Fist) under the tutelage of Zheng Li Shu, at the Xiao Lian temple (Once known as Jiao Lian  but renamed by Fang Qiniang), here is where the links to Red Boat Yong Chun originate. Zheng Li Shu was the son of Zheng Ci Chu and Fang Qiniang. Fang Qiniang is the founder of Yong Chun crane. He went into hiding with the Mizong practitioners of the Sichuan and Yunnan areas, eventually becoming a monk, this is where he learned "Lions Roar" from Master XXX (Again I wont give up the transmission line) and eventually met and trained Sheng Long Lao Zong....etc.

There is lots and lots more to the stories, however, this should suffice for now.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Adatuojin (Dai Dot Lama, Ordator) same individual. Here is the list of Tibetan teachers:
> 
> Zhong Ka Ba - Zhu Ba Je - A Da Tuo Jin - Dou Luo Ji Tan - Qi Lan Fo
> 
> ...


I would be curious to know where this information comes from.  When there seems to be a lot of information about someone from the distant past, who lived in a remote place, I find myself wondering how so much is remembered about him? How were records kept, and who else knows this ?  Connections to the powerful or famous, like the dalai and Panchen Lamas makes me inclined to group it into one of the folklore and mythology variants and not something to be taken as literal history.

What is your position on the historical accuracy of the story?


----------



## dlcox (Jan 30, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I would be curious to know where this information comes from.  When there seems to be a lot of information about someone from the distant past, who lived in a remote place, I find myself wondering how so much is remembered about him? How were records kept, and who else knows this ?  Connections to the powerful or famous, like the dalai and Panchen Lamas makes me inclined to group it into one of the folklore and mythology variants and not something to be taken as literal history.
> 
> What is your position on the historical accuracy of the story?



These are part of the oral legends of my lineage, take them with a grain of salt. Can it all be verified without a shadow of doubt? Absolutely not, but many of these individuals can be historically verified and much of it does coincide with the popular mythology of the art. I personally try to dismiss the mysticism that surrounds much of the story and look at the historical events of the era to try and piece together a more than likely scenario. As far as how much is remembered, my main Shifu Kuang Zui Han was a monk, it's their job to remember and recite what they have been taught  They were notorious book keepers, this is how Tibet gained it's name. I simply wrote the stories down as they were told to me and researched on my own as well as spoke with many others about probabilities. I have the information simply because I took the time to listen to the stories of many "Lion's Roar" elders that I met and wrote down what they told me. I cross referenced what I could and formed my own conclusions. No one has to agree with me, or accept what I say as truth as it pertains to their lineage, this is only applicable to my lineage. FWIW Gebun Chub was posthumously awarded the title of Dalai Lama. The title was not officially bestowed on anyone until many, many years later, starting I believe with the 5th Dalai Lama. It is common practice in Tibet for monks to take vows from one guru, and study under many more, the mentality of "It takes a village" in their spiritual upbringing. If one wants to understand the origins and history of their art research the lineage, ask questions, form conclusions based on probability and look into the lineage to see whom trained with whom, that's where the real story lies. The rest is simply mythology.

As to your question on the historical accuracy of the story.....As I stated it is based upon the Tibetan and Nepalese war, overly embellished with hints of spiritual aspects of Lamaism. Tibet won the war, victors write history.

I find it curious that you stated that you wished you knew more about the time between A Da Tuo Jin and Sheng Long Lao Zong and yet when I offer some of it, you question it's validity as if the common origin story were more accurate and truthful. I don't mean to come across as a jerk, but you were the one that asked. I gave freely and you are coming across as unappreciative that I did so by questioning my integrity and the validity of the oral legends of my lineage. It's my lineage, I am the current Zhong Ren Men of the Wu Jian Hua line, no one else can claim that, that was an honor bestowed upon me and it is my responsibility to honor my ancestry by keeping these legends alive. Again are they historically accurate, can the be absolutely verified? No, and I understand that and know it all has to be taken with a grain of salt, but I also know that many do not possess a lot of these legends. I will gladly share them if they are appreciated for what they are, stories. If I can I will add in footnotes to help explain some of the mythology as I understand it and reference it to any historical data. Again, I don't mean to come off as a jerk, I apologize if I have.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2015)

I do not feel that you were being a jerk, and neither was it my intention to be a jerk.  I did muse about the lost generations, but prior to today I had no reason to suspect anyone had any information about that.  So, when presented with some information I simple poked a bit and asked about the sources.  Or at least that was my intention in case it did not come thru in that way.

I appreciate that you recognize the stories as part of the oral tradition of your lineage.  That is as I see them too, for my own lineage.  My own sifu has written about our history in some documents that are not widely available outside of our group.  My mind asks the same questions, primarily, how does anyone know so much detail about events that happened several hundred years ago, in a remote area?  It's just in how I view these things, I guess.  I appreciate that you shared the story with me.  There are common themes with our version, as well as differences, but it is interesting to see the contrast.  In the end, I'm not pushing mine over any others because I do see them as a mythology where true historical fact may or may not have a place.  I was interested in knowing your own take on your own story because that can sometimes give me insight into who I am conversing with. I have no objections to what you've told me so far.

It's all good, and it's interesting to run into someone else from a different branch of the tree.


----------



## dlcox (Jan 31, 2015)

Sorry if I came off a bit sharp, wasn't my intention. It's hard to interpret and inflict tone in writing.

Examining the oral tradition I find some interesting points of reference.

1. The Crane & Ape aspects are most likely a reference to the Nepal / Tibetan war. This is reflected in the poem of "Monkeys and Birds". At that time Tibet viewed themselves as cranes amd the Nepalese as monkeys. As the art traveled east the totems switched. The Chinese, especially the Daoists, viewed themselves as cranes and the Tibetans as monkeys.

2. The true Tibetan aspects of the art lie within the internal methods, not the martial methods. Lamas are pacifists, spiritual warriors only. So their traditions are filled with myth and allegory. The legends are like Zen koans, puzzles to be figured out. There are some true Tibetan martial aspects but these are arts like Amaree, indigenous wrestling methods. Most of the martial elememts of "Lions Roar" come from Fojia Quan, Cai Li Fo Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan Quan and Bai He Quan. If I had to guess I'd say that for my lineage Luohan Quan and Bai He Quan are the major aspects, at least for what was used as a model for the Taolu. There are definate influences from Shuai Jiao, Qin Na and Tong Bei. These were San Shi methods and concepts that were part of the early development, and are common to many northern Chinese arts.

3. The conceptual aspects of the art lie within the theories found in Shuai Jiao, Qin Na & Tong Bei. As well as the concepts used to formulate Bai He Quan created by Fang Qiniang. Other branches may use another art,  most commonly I see Cai Li Fo, which has a shared history with "Lions Roar" through the monk known as Da Zhang (Walking Stick Monk). Energy useage, movement, internal mechanisms, strength development come specifically from the  indigenous Tibetan methods of Yoga. This loose material was combined with whatever art was at hand to create the style of "Lions Roar", this is partly why the art is referred to as Hejia (Hop Gar) or United Family.

4. Once the art entered southern China it was absorbed into the Hong Men society. As I stated earlier the philosophy of the Hong Men was greatly influenced by the Mizong practices of Tibet, Sichuan & Yunan. The initiation rite of the society is essentially a reworking of the Chod ritual found in the esoteric teachings of Lamaism. This is where much of the lore gets further muddled and embellished. Such as the legend of Sheng Long Lao Zhong being 5th elder Qing Ru Hu De Di. At this time the art was known as Hejia (United Family) it wasn't until Wang Yan Lin that this was changed and the method was referred to as Xiajia (Knight Family).

5. In short there are two events that lead to the development of the art. Tibet is where the majority of the internal wokings originated and China is where the majority of the marrtial methods originated. This isn't cut and dry as there are elements to be found from Indian Kalaripayettu and Tibetan Amaree as well as influences of Chinese Qigong. As I stated it's all in the lineage. Diregard the legends and follow the lineage, who trained with whom tells the real history. By looking at this we can see where influences came from, trace origins of legends and see what events in these individuals eras led to the shaping of the art. Cross reference this with the legends and you wll have a much clearer picture of how things came to be. It's not definative proof but it is a best case senario of what might have really occured.


----------



## dlcox (Jan 31, 2015)

The original weapons used by the Tibeta Ldob Ldob (Guardian Monks) were a boot knife, temple key and sometimes a staff. They were not allowed weapons but the knife was easily hid in their clothing. Many of them wore a heavy temple key around their necks so they could access various area of the temple to perform their duties, this was used in scuffles like a meteor hammer. The staff was only employed during festivals for crowd control and occasionally used by older monks as a walking stick.

The staff work of Tibetan crane is fairly well documented, however the knife and key are not. I would be curious to know if any lineages preserve any of this training. There is also the obscure brass ring, this was based upon the Indian chakram. I have only seen it used in a manner consistant with the Mu Er Pai and the Yong Chun rattan ring, very little martial application with it aside from the old Shalin vs. Lama movie. 

I would very much like hear about other lineages of "Lions Roar" weapons methods, or input on the above subjects.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2015)

dlcox said:


> The original weapons used by the Tibeta Ldob Ldob (Guardian Monks) were a boot knife, temple key and sometimes a staff. They were not allowed weapons but the knife was easily hid in their clothing. Many of them wore a heavy temple key around their necks so they could access various area of the temple to perform their duties, this was used in scuffles like a meteor hammer. The staff was only employed during festivals for crowd control and occasionally used by older monks as a walking stick.
> 
> The staff work of Tibetan crane is fairly well documented, however the knife and key are not. I would be curious to know if any lineages preserve any of this training. There is also the obscure brass ring, this was based upon the Indian chakram. I have only seen it used in a manner consistant with the Mu Er Pai and the Yong Chun rattan ring, very little martial application with it aside from the old Shalin vs. Lama movie.
> 
> I would very much like hear about other lineages of "Lions Roar" weapons methods, or input on the above subjects.


I don't know the weapon history of most of what we practice, I suspect a lot of it was adopted Chinese at some point, but nothing about a boot knife nor a ring.  I can't say if our staff material is truly tibetan or Chinese.

You mention the lamas being pacifist, and while that is true, Tibet did have a martial period several hundred years ago when it was a dominant military power in the region.  I would expect there would be plenty of material in that context to pull from, in the development of the system, and would no ncessarily need to pull from the Chinese methods to do so.  Borrowing has always happened between methods, but my understanding is that the tibetan method is a fair bit older than Choy lay fut, hung gar, and the Fukien crane.  If memory serves, those methods were founded in the 1700s or so, much later than the oral history places the beginnings of the Tibetan methods.  I don't know anthing really about tong bei.  But I'm not seeing how Choy lay fut or hung ga would have been source material for the Tibetan. Opposite of that, we've always held that those methods borrowed from the Tibetan method.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2015)

This is a very interesting thread, I want to thank you both for this.



Flying Crane said:


> I don't know anthing really about tong bei.



My first sifu did some Tongbeiquan but as far as I know he never taught it to anyone, however I use to see him do the forms every once and awhile

Tongbeiquan


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2015)

I've seen a little bit of tongbei, tho not enough to know if it what I saw was well done or not.  I don't know anything about its history, but it's interesting, for sure.


----------



## dlcox (Feb 2, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know the weapon history of most of what we practice, I suspect a lot of it was adopted Chinese at some point, but nothing about a boot knife nor a ring.  I can't say if our staff material is truly tibetan or Chinese.
> 
> You mention the lamas being pacifist, and while that is true, Tibet did have a martial period several hundred years ago when it was a dominant military power in the region.  I would expect there would be plenty of material in that context to pull from, in the development of the system, and would no ncessarily need to pull from the Chinese methods to do so.  Borrowing has always happened between methods, but my understanding is that the tibetan method is a fair bit older than Choy lay fut, hung gar, and the Fukien crane.  If memory serves, those methods were founded in the 1700s or so, much later than the oral history places the beginnings of the Tibetan methods.  I don't know anthing really about tong bei.  But I'm not seeing how Choy lay fut or hung ga would have been source material for the Tibetan. Opposite of that, we've always held that those methods borrowed from the Tibetan method.



I don't know a whole about the weapons history either. I do know that the Kham region of Tibet was famous for their swordsmanship. 

True that Tibet did have a strong military presence at one time. As I mentioned earlier common arts of that era would have been, Kalaripayettu, Vajramushti, Boke, Amaree etc. These arts most definately had an impact on the arts development, but that was then. As the art traveled east it was overwritten with a lot of Chinese material, as it was passed on by Chinese. From my limited understanding early Tong Bei, like Shuai Jiao and Qin Na, did not have taolu. It was considered more a method / tactic than a full fledged art.

Huang Yan Lin (Wong Yan Lin), Huang Lin Kai (Wong Lam Hoi), Wu Jian Hua (Ng Gim Ho) just to name a few were all promonent Hongjia Quan practitioners. Wu Mei (Ng Mui, Jin Bo Liu Tou) was Yong Chun White Crane. I believe that Chan Sai Mo (Choy Lay Fut) referred to his art as White Crane. Naive to think that their previous arts did not have a profound influence on their versions of Lion's Roar. Alot of the art has been overwritten with Chinese cultural influences, the Tibetan art IMO did not influence the Chinese arts as much as it was the other way around. Otherwise I think there would be more Tibetan heritage preserved in the art such as Tibetan and Sanskrit language references, religious iconography, ceremony etc. It has only been within the last 15-20 years that a small group of individuals like myself have tried to connect the dots and verify the Tibetan heritage and influence, sadly much is lost from the original Simhanada Vajramushti / Senge Ngwa Dorge Lag Pa that was said to exist once upon a time in Tibet. Many Chinese Shifu are very nationalistic and do not want to emphasize another culture over their own. This is evidenced by the naming of the various branches, Dr. Sun Yat Sen suggested that the name be changed as he felt many would not support a forgien method once employed by the very group (the Qing) that was oppressing them. Since then much  has been done to reduce the arts origin to the realm of mythology, ovewrite what could be and what couldn't be was forgtten or simply not spoke about publically.

There has also always beeen a stong "keep what is useful, throwout what is not" mentality wth the practitioners of the art, ad in Nationalistic pride and Secret Societies and conditions become ripe for different interpretations with different mythologies. This by no means suggests that one lineage is more original or pure than another. It simply goes to show that the art is varied with different emphasis, making it difficult to discerrn what was the root of art. IMO what I see is mostly Chinese martial methods and theories supported by a sliver of Tibetan qigong and remnants of old indigenous Tibetan martial traditions and heavy overwriting by the Chinese tradition. A majority of this conclusion is based upon my own personal experiences and doesn't necessisarily reflect the views of others. The strongest support to my conclusions is that there is no Llions Roar martial art practiced in Tibet, but they do have a religious Yoga practice aligned with Lions Roar. They continue to practice to this day the various methods of Trul Khor and Sku Mnye.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2015)

dlcox said:


> I don't know a whole about the weapons history either. I do know that the Kham region of Tibet was famous for their swordsmanship.
> 
> True that Tibet did have a strong military presence at one time. As I mentioned earlier common arts of that era would have been, Kalaripayettu, Vajramushti, Boke, Amaree etc. These arts most definately had an impact on the arts development, but that was then. As the art traveled east it was overwritten with a lot of Chinese material, as it was passed on by Chinese. From my limited understanding early Tong Bei, like Shuai Jiao and Qin Na, did not have taolu. It was considered more a method / tactic than a full fledged art.
> 
> ...


Good post and put in this manner I really cannot find a lot to disagree with.  Clearly the method would have gone thru a lot of change as it came into China, no doubt about that.  And to your point of previous experience coloring what one would do with their white crane, well that does make a lot of sense.  All that one has done previously will affect in some way all that one does later, when it comes to training.  And that influence would affect how the method is passed along by any individual, while not necessarily affecting the system as a whole.  It all depends on the experiences of those who are teaching, and explains a lot of the differences we see today from one lineage to another.  I've had a similar discussion with my student, we see on YouTube, video of people from other schools and other lineages, they do things differently and we are tempted to say they are wrong.  But we can't really say that, if their lineage emphasizes something differently and it is effective, then I cannot say it is truly wrong.  I can only say, there is this or that aspect of how they do things and I personally don't like it for XYZ reason.  But that doesn't mean that their interpretation of the system as a whole is wrong. Luk Chi Fu was accomplished in Choy lay fut and he was my Sifu's first teacher.  Sifu learned a lot f CLF before he decided to focus on white crane and went to train with Tang Ja Meng. That does influence what he does, it has an influence on how he passes it along to the students.  So yeah, the influence is there even if on a case-by-case level and not on a macro level of the entire system. I've had an inherent suspicion that the original method from the 14th century, if that is in fact the truth of when it began, is probably very different from what we have today.

Interesting that you mention the sword and Tibet being famous for their swordsmanship.  My sifu says the same thing, says that our sword is highly treasured.  So that is a familiar message to me.


----------



## dlcox (Feb 2, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Good post and put in this manner I really cannot find a lot to disagree with.  Clearly the method would have gone thru a lot of change as it came into China, no doubt about that.  And to your point of previous experience coloring what one would do with their white crane, well that does make a lot of sense.  All that one has done previously will affect in some way all that one does later, when it comes to training.  And that influence would affect how the method is passed along by any individual, while not necessarily affecting the system as a whole.  It all depends on the experiences of those who are teaching, and explains a lot of the differences we see today from one lineage to another.  I've had a similar discussion with my student, we see on YouTube, video of people from other schools and other lineages, they do things differently and we are tempted to say they are wrong.  But we can't really say that, if their lineage emphasizes something differently and it is effective, then I cannot say it is truly wrong.  I can only say, there is this or that aspect of how they do things and I personally don't like it for XYZ reason.  But that doesn't mean that their interpretation of the system as a whole is wrong. Luk Chi Fu was accomplished in Choy lay fut and he was my Sifu's first teacher.  Sifu learned a lot f CLF before he decided to focus on white crane and went to train with Tang Ja Meng. That does influence what he does, it has an influence on how he passes it along to the students.  So yeah, the influence is there even if on a case-by-case level and not on a macro level of the entire system. I've had an inherent suspicion that the original method from the 14th century, if that is in fact the truth of when it began, is probably very different from what we have today.
> 
> Interesting that you mention the sword and Tibet being famous for their swordsmanship.  My sifu says the same thing, says that our sword is highly treasured.  So that is a familiar message to me.



Good post. I think we've come to some agreement 

What sword methods do you have in your lineage? White Tiger Saber, Twisting Horse Sword, Flying Crane Sword etc.? In my lineage we have our version of White Tiger Saber & Twisting Horse Sword as the major sword methods. Our White Tiger is much shorter than many I have seen and focuses on only the basic and most salient movements. Our Twisting Horse is our internal sword and has elements common to Flying Crane and Twisting horse that I've seen from other lineages but again shorter in length. It's interesting that in my lineage our sword movements are the same as our hand movements just like in arts like Yong Chun. Does this ring true for you as well?


----------



## dlcox (Feb 2, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> This is a very interesting thread, I want to thank you both for this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tongbeiquan has some very difinative elements that were introduced into Tibetan White Crane. IMO especially with the Wu Shao Zhong (Ng Siu Jung) branch. Lots of reference to the old frame (Kuang) style of training in both systems. I have some material from this branch through Liu Jun Ren (Lau Kwan Yum). We have line drills performed in this manner while emphasizing the "6 Strengths". Good stuff, another riddle of the art known as Lions Roar.


----------



## qianfeng (Feb 3, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Sorry if I came off a bit sharp, wasn't my intention. It's hard to interpret and inflict tone in writing.
> 
> Examining the oral tradition I find some interesting points of reference.
> 
> ...



Isnt White crane a northern art how did it get northern influence from tong bei?


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Good post. I think we've come to some agreement
> 
> What sword methods do you have in your lineage? White Tiger Saber, Twisting Horse Sword, Flying Crane Sword etc.? In my lineage we have our version of White Tiger Saber & Twisting Horse Sword as the major sword methods. Our White Tiger is much shorter than many I have seen and focuses on only the basic and most salient movements. Our Twisting Horse is our internal sword and has elements common to Flying Crane and Twisting horse that I've seen from other lineages but again shorter in length. It's interesting that in my lineage our sword movements are the same as our hand movements just like in arts like Yong Chun. Does this ring true for you as well?


We've got white tiger dao, tho I have not learned it.  We've got flying crane dao, that one I've learned.  It may be unique to our lineage might be one that Sifu adopted from elsewhere, but it works very well with the principles of our system, the waist turning.

We've got two sword forms, embarrassed to say I've forgotten the names and I've learned one of them.  I'm not sure if we have flying crane sword, or if Sifu simply has not taught that one.  The other two are not that one.

I don't know the history of this stuff, and I don't know enough sword in general to make any comparisons or draw conclusions.  I had learned tome Taiji sword from a prior sifu, but never felt like I undrstood taiji properly so I don't like to hold that out as something in my tool kit.


----------



## dlcox (Feb 3, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> Isnt White crane a northern art how did it get northern influence from tong bei?


 
I would say it is more western if anything. As it was introduced into China many arts were absorbed, influenced or added to it, changing it from the original method known in India as Simhanada Vajramushti. Simhanada Vajramushti is considered a dead art. Remnants of it can still be seen in "Lions Roar", however, because of peoples personal preferences, pre-existing knowledge base etc. Much of the art has been overwritten.


----------



## qianfeng (Feb 4, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> Isnt White crane a northern art how did it get northern influence from tong bei?



I meant White crane being southern not northern


----------



## dlcox (Feb 4, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> I meant White crane being southern not northern


 
In my lineage of Tibetan White Crane we hold the tradition that our "White Crane" element is largely from the Yong Chun tradition. Other lineages my not agree with this. For my line this influence probably has more to due with the fact that our founding ancestors were originally Hongjia practitioners, and Hongjia's shared ancestry with Fujian crane boxing. It is interesting to note though, that aside from the origin story of Adatuojin's Lions Roar, ancestral Simhanada Vajramushti makes no reference to Ape or Crane in their versions origin myth.

It's not hard to imagine that as this art travelled to China it encountered various Chinese martial methods. As some undoubtedly travelled the Silk Road and entered Northern China through Mongolia especially during the time when the Khan had Lamas brought over to reside in Beijing. If I'm not mistaken Tongbei is the art of the Ape, Taiji was the imperial art at the time, Taiji is Crane. Some believe this is when and where Mian Li Zhen (Needle in Cotton) was created using the tantric yoga as a developmental wellspring. 

Lions Roar is a vast art encompassing several methods ranging from Long Fist to Short Hand, External to Internal. IMO this was not "Created" by one man, several masters and styles have led to the development of the style. That is why there are so many variations of it. The martial art that was brought to China was more than likely a San Shi method practiced in Kuang (Frame) fashion, the qigong was sacred and not many preserved it, according to legend one had to become a monk to learn this aspect. There is the "Needle in Cotton" fist but this is only one of many internal sets and exercises. There very well could be some remnants of Simhanada Vajramushti "Taolu" (Both Martial and Qigong) in some branches, but I'm sure they has been Sino-fied as well.


----------



## Nobody Important (Sep 16, 2016)

Moved from Wing Chun forum.

Nobody Important said:
Systems based on White Crane or influenced by it have a unique theoretical approach to their systems. Looking at Tibetan Crane, Yong Chun Crane, Hung Gar, Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu and even Wing Chun IMO. These arts all revolve around a foundation set that they view as the beginning and ending of their systems. Its how the foundation set is viewed that sets it apart. Generally in the beginning it is viewed more as a "Body Building" method than anything else with generic Ji Ben exercises and methods assuming the role for basic instruction.Thisfoundation set is then built upon and extrapolated as they progress, which is a standard approach. Much of the generic material used for basic training actually contains simplified advanced elements of training that will be continuously revisited and refined as progression is made. The foundation set is used to reinforce theory whereas the advanced material is used to teach practical application of theory. This is the White Crane method of circular training, where advanced is beginner and beginner is advanced, this is to avoid contradiction later on. It can be confusing if not methodically approached

Flying Crane replied:
Not a bad answer. Where is your information/experience coming from?

I would suggest that Lok lik Kuen is by far the most important set, tho I think a lot of people would disagree because it is so "simple", being "only" a series of six different punches done in a row and return. But that simplicity establishes the foundational rotation driven by the legs that the entire system is built upon. Of course the fundamentals are established in the basic practice of the Chay San rotation practice and manifests in practice of basic punches, but that set then takes those fundamentals and tweeks them into something directly functional and less theoretical. By the way, Sifu feels most people misunderstand the Six Power to be in reference to the six punching techniques practiced in that set. He feels the real meaning is that the set gives you awareness of the six directions from which an enemy can attack and you must defend: Front, Back, Left, Right, Up, and Down.

The other sets, starting with chuit yap bo apply those fundamentals in a wider variety of ways, giving examples of how to use them in any situation, including smaller movements. Incidentally, we do CYB as one long form, but if broken into two shorter sets we simply refer to them as CYB and the second half is Dae Saat (not sure if I'm spelling that correctly) which i believe means something like Ground Spirit/Demon.

As for the Shooting Star Fist, Sifu uses that term to describe the beginner level curriculum, which is Lok lik Kuen (basic level), CYB, Tit Lin Kuen, and Pak Hok Kuen. This is where the student learns speed in his techniques and that is what Shooting Star refers to.

The Flying Crane Fist he uses in reference to the intermediate curriculum, which is Siu Kum Kong Kuen, Siu Lohan Kuen, and Siu Ng Hing Kuen. This is means the long fist techniques, solidifying full body connection through big movements.

We don't have sets that are actually named Flying Crane, nor Shooting Star. I wonder if there may have been an older curriculum that used those names, and that was morphed into the current series. If so, my guess is that would have been done by Ng Siu-Chung, who established the Bak Hok lineage as separate from Hop Gar. Either way, I don't remember sifu ever saying such a thing and he makes no mention of it in his books, to my recollection.

Cotton Needle is the last set. People think it's White Crane's taiji, but it isn't. Instead it takes the principles of the system, the rooted power and the rotation, and puts them into a compact form done slowly and deliberately and methodically. It is practicing the same thing, the same principles, but refined and without the big movement. Of course smaller movement is in the system well before cotton needle, but from what I've seen, that's cotton needle. Sifu never talks about it in terms of taiji, or qi development and such. I believe he has said straight out, it's not taiji. I've not learned the set, but I've seen my sihing practice it many times with Sifu's guidance and the connected discussions, and I've seen Sifu do it many times as well, so I've definitely got some familiarity with it


----------

