# Why do Western Martial Arts Lack the "Mystique" of Asian Arts?



## Jonathan Randall (May 11, 2006)

Why do Western Martial Arts Lack the "Mystique" of Asian Arts in the public's mind? Familiarity - meaning the "grass is always greener" effect? Why for so many years, and still in the mind of much of the general public, were Asian styles almost automatically considered deadier and more formidable than their western counterparts? One laughs now at the movie and tv stereotype from the 1940-60's of the person with a bit of training in the "Judo Chop" or Karate or, heaven forbid!, KUNG FU, besting western fisticuffs without fail - but that stereotype is still there to a degree. Why so? Thoughts? Disagreements?


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## mrhnau (May 11, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Why do Western Martial Arts Lack the "Mystique" of Asian Arts in the public's mind? Familiarity - meaning the "grass is always greener" effect? Why for so many years, and still in the mind of much of the general public, were Asian styles almost automatically considered deadier and more formidable than their western counterparts? One laughs now at the movie and tv stereotype from the 1940-60's of the person with a bit of training in the "Judo Chop" or Karate or, heaven forbid!, KUNG FU, besting western fisticuffs without fail - but that stereotype is still there to a degree. Why so? Thoughts? Disagreements?



Great question... the following are just my opinions, I'm no expert...

I think we are driven to things that are unordinary and foreign. At least a certain portion of the population is. We don't have an analogy for certain things in their culture... we don't have the shaolin temple, the samuri class, the history of weaponsmithing. We don't really have much in the way of the spiritual aspect that used to be prevelant in the origin of martial arts, with the possible exception of native american cultures. We did not have a strong element of Budhism, Taoism, ect., at least until the immigration of chinese a while ago...

The "fighters" of the americas and europe were seldom ascribed mystical properties. We don't have the oral and written traditions of great grandmasters (at least that I'm aware of). I think we are drawn to the mystical and fantastical, so we are drawn to other cultures lore. We do the same with super athletes, ascribing almost an element of hero worship. We do have the occassional Daniel Boone, Billy the Kid or some other gunfighter/fighter, but unless I'm mistaken, we don't study Boonedo, or some other "art" ascribed to Daniel Boone. With famous oriental warriors, we can actually seek out the styles they studied and learn them. its a way of directly connecting with mystical warriors and legends.

Movies! In the 70's we start getting input from the orient. Would Muay Thai be as popular w/out Kickboxer? Kung Fu w/out David Carradine and Kung Fu Theatre? How exciting of a movie would it be if a mystical warrior from Japan comes to the US and gets the tar beaten out of him by a boxer? Or gets shot before he gets a chance to do anything?

Anyways, thats just a few ideas...


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## Dwight McLemore (May 11, 2006)

Contact Greg Mele at Sword Forum International and he will give you one answer.  Contact John Clements at Association of Rennaissance Martial Artists and you will get another. Contact any Sport Fencing School and they will basically tell you that it never died. 

The 'Bottom Line' is that it took the internet to resurrect the WMA and availability of the old manuals on-line to really get things underway.  I think some of what we now lump into the WMA dropped off in popularity at the turn of the 19th Century. 

 And then there are the guys that say that their is no such thing, historically, as WMA. 

  What caused the mistique for the Asian Martial Arts?  People making money off movies and Dojos. Holywood really helped. 

   A couple of years back I was in a local restaurant that has a bar in the middle of the dining room. There were three over 40 senior black-belts standing around the bar barefoot and in their freshly starcted Gi.   The one with the beer had his hand on his heavily worn black belt.  The other two were standing in that attention stance with both hands on their belts.  NOW, That's mistique!  I did not know whether to eat or ask permission to perform my kata. 

You know boxing has probably been around the longest in this country and as we know it indeed never died.  That Everlast company goes back to 1910. 

I apologize for not giving much of an answer.  Just an opinion.


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## terryl965 (May 11, 2006)

Johnathon it all comes down to perpective here, Western Arts have failed over a 40 year span dating back to the early 70's when promoters took over the boxing ring and run the ordinary folks out, as far as fencing goes that was in the twentys when only the one that could afford it did it, as a society martial art was inexpensive and fascinating during those time periods. Even today it is realitively cheaper to do MA instead of those western arts. Try and take a fencing class, I was told 400.00 a month and that was 2.5 hours of lesson a week, if you would like to become a top notch boxer the fee's with management and a great training will just kill your pocket book.

No do not get me wrong some will find the money but other will just go the other way I.E. Asian arts. This is only my opinion and is no regards the views of Martial Talk or and subsiderarys even public television was not involve in my comments.
Terry


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## Mcura (May 11, 2006)

I get the feeling that WMA is still growing in terms of fascination and appeal.  Actually, that term is inaccurate.  "Renewing" fits better.

As was mentioned earlier, the internet is the most effective tool in getting the word out. Five years ago, the idea of the Bowie knife as a martial art tool was foreign to me.  Fighting like a medieval knight?  Isn't that some kind of theatrical stunt show?  But now, more and more folks are getting the idea that, hey, this stuff is interesting.  It's a lot more than a rusty sword hanging from a fireplace or in a museum.  What's that?  French people have their own kickboxing?  Ooooh, there's a school near me that does *that* stuff?  With the spears and the swords and Grandaddy's big ol' knife?  Tell me more!


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## Andrew Green (May 11, 2006)

It's the fantasy of a little guy being able to take out a big guy through pure skill.  It's also foriegn and unknown over here, combined with a stylized vision of it through media.

Same as cowboys shooting off peoples hats from 100 yards with a revolver and sending others flying 10 ft from a shoot in the chest.  Fantasy is much more fun to believe then reality.

We also got tons of get rich quick, drop 50lbs in a month and other such nonsense going around where people are promised a quick fix with little effort.

Boxing's not like that, if you want to be a good boxer you got to get bloodied up.  Hollywood admits that.  Where as Kung fu movies, yes they train hard, but it's more "abstract" and the results are more superhuman.  The impression is anyone could do it, if they worked hard enough and had the right master.

Western sports don't do that, no one believes anyone could be a Heavyweight champ in boxing, certain people have the potential, most don't.  Kung fu movies, and not even the movies, the advertising, and everything has always been "Anyone can do this, and it will make you invincible compared to normal people if you work hard enough"


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## Cruentus (May 11, 2006)

All good replies. I can't really disagree with anybody here. Obviously it is a cumilative effect.

Some reasons I would like to add:

1. Sensationalizing things that are "foriegn." I wanted to reinerate that there is this tendency to give credability to asian instructors and styles over others. THis has already been mentioned...

2. Focus on the practical rather then tradition: This one is important to note. In most surviving Asian systems, they are as much focused on preserving the fighting tradition as they are doing what is practical in a fight. So they created a structure that would do that. In the west as far as combat goes (especially in America) we have only been interested in doing what is practical for fighting. The negative is that a lot of the "how to's" of our combat history is lost. Case in point, we don't know 100% how gunfighters of the old west faught. Even famous ones like Bill Hickock. We can make assumptions, but a lot of the methodology is lost because they were not focused on carrying on their fighting tradition.


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## Mcura (May 11, 2006)

I think "tradition" is the key word here in Western vs. Eastern martial arts.  In China and Japan, there was the ideal of keeping your ancestors' fighting techniques alive to show respect for them.  There's no comparative idealogy in Europe and America like that until the 20th Century.  Nowadays, however, folks are looking at Ol' Granddad's Boxing, or Great Uncle Jeb's saber, etc. in a whole new light.  Perhaps this level of interest will continue.  Hopefully it will.


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## frank raud (May 11, 2006)

There have been some excellent points raised so far, but I do think the
contrast between the stereotypical western fighter(knight, cowboy, soldier0 and the stereotypical asian fighter has a lot to do with it. The former is described as tall and strong, with the strength of 10 ordinary men(where have I heard that?), two fisted, hard living.Consider the image of the vikings, how the west was won, etc. The stereotypical Asian fighter is a feeble looking monk, who by his amazing skills can overcome a larger opponent.

I am referring to stereotypes, the images of pulp fiction and dime store novels. But it has helped shape our impression of western and eastern martial arts. The lack of the appeal of exotic religions and mysticism plays into it as well. A warrior monk? They exist in Western history and legend, but don't have the same appeal as the Shaolin monks. Contrast Friar Tuck to Kwai Chang Kane.

The stereotypes continue in Hollywood, as high kicking to head level is flashier and more entertaining than say boxing or glima.


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## Touch Of Death (May 11, 2006)

Some martial arts Ideas don't translate to the western fighter but the western fighter will try to use it anyway.
Sean


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## James Patrick (May 11, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> Some martial arts Ideas don't translate to the western fighter but the western fighter will try to use it anyway.
> Sean


 
That's interesting...which idea's?


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## Touch Of Death (May 11, 2006)

Fists at the hip for one. Unless you have done the proper conditioning such as properly stretching the chest muscles,  as well as conditioning the joint in your shoulder, your motion gets retarded by the binding in your shoulder and works against the natural pull in your chest. The secret then would be to condition yourself for that pupose, but more often than not Americans just do as they are told. This harkens back to the idea of having little Pre-Monk children hopping up the stairs with a load of bricks on their head, or standing in an Horse for a year before learning a single basic. You skip the conditioning, you skip effectiveness of basics built from that type of conditioning.
Sean


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## lonecoyote (May 11, 2006)

We have combined the Asian arts with the western martial art of marketing. I want to pass through hidden gates of knowledge, I want to be privy to secret information that will allow me to defeat any enemy and walk unafraid forever. Heck, I also want to levitate, and have the Dim Mak, and feel the spirit of the Dragon. Don't forget the powerful marketing tool, the Black Belt. All this talk about asian "tradition" you do realize a lot of this is coming from, and has been created by,  a western marketing perspective. I recently talked with a guy thats kind of an old timer, runs a successful school, nice guy and he told me that in fact, in a martial art he used to do, they started up a certain formal eastern looking salute or something after he and another guy saw it on the kung fu tv series. Now it's an established part of a well known martial art, and I won't say which one. How about the resurgent western martial art of submission grappling? Grappling classes all over in gyms, garages, tkd schools, some schooled in BJJ, some in wrestling, some in neither, just working it out on the mat by fighting.


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## Robert Lee (May 11, 2006)

Hype showed M/A as being so great. When it is not. Anybody can fight that simple. When you believe something in a movie its a joke. Here in the USA the M/A is starting to transend western culture. Which is what it has done as it went from one country to another. The M?A allways took on the need of the people. Todays The US has several top people that would hold there own with past legends. The fact is M/A should adapt to the people here to be useable for them. Fighting has changed in delivery from how it was 100 years ago. Hands at the hip Well remember that is done in motion context of defence application It can work but do not want them there after the action has got underway. In the west we will see the advancement of the M/A that best meets our needs. No  fault in that


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## aplonis (May 11, 2006)

They don't. Not at all. We find mystique in things Eastern because, being Western, to us the West is mundane.

Go to Japan and you will find youngsters there find a certain degreee of mystique in such examples of Western martial traditions as portrayed by Clint Eastwood (and when I was there in the 70's, John Wayne).

You haven't seen anything half so funny as an American Western cowboy movie with John Wayne speaking Japanese in an ultra-deep Samurai basso-profundo voice.

We are entranced by many things foreign. So are they, if only because different is good. Different, at least, is seldom boring. And anything different and foreign is guaranteed to frighten parents. That's an attraction all by itself.

Gan Uesli Starling
Kalamazoo MI


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## Nanalo74 (May 11, 2006)

Bruce Lee once said "Americans like exoticness for exoticness' sake."

Vic


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## Jonathan Randall (May 11, 2006)

Thanks all. These have been tremendous, well thought out and well written responses. :asian:


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## Carol (May 11, 2006)

There is a mystique to Western Martial Arts...but I don't think it is as easy to spot.

The mystique of long hours training in brutally tough gyms, where the threats on the inside were perhaps even worse than the threats that one may face on the street.

The fairytale careers of prizefighters...yo, Adrian!

The rituals and stress of pre-fight rituals from the traditional (no sex before a fight) to the modern ways of torturing the body just to make weight.


There's quite a bit there...it's just a different mystique.


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