# Short Form #2



## kenpoevolution (Jul 23, 2003)

Here is cool thing mensioned in Infinite Insights into Kenpo #5 about Short Form #2:

Draw a line from 9:00 to 3:00 on the ground with masking tape and then draw a perpendicular line from the end of the original line at 3:00 towards 9:00. You now have a corner.

Place your right foot in this masking tape corner while you are in the horse stance (after completing the salutation and before starting the short form #2).  At the fifth and sixth move (wide kneel stance with a upward block and middle knuckle rake), your right foot should once again be in the corner. Try it! If your foot does not end up there, there is supposed something inconsistnent in the depth of your stances. Tell me if this works for ya'll. 



:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 23, 2003)

I have never tried it.:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpoevolution _
> *Draw a line from 9:00 to 3:00 on the ground with masking tape and then draw a perpendicular line from the end of the original line at 3:00 towards 9:00. You now have a corner. *



No, that's a line. To be a corner the second line must be from 3:00 to *6:00*


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## kenpoevolution (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *No, that's a line. To be a corner the second line must be from 3:00 to 6:00 *



Sorry, you're right. Make that :

"Draw a line from 9:00 to 3:00 on the ground with masking tape and then draw a perpendicular line from the end of the original line at 3:00 towards 6:00. You now have a corner."


Thanks


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## Shodan (Jul 24, 2003)

Hmmmm.....interesting, I shall have to try it!!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Seig (Aug 1, 2003)

In My school, I have part of the Universal Pattern on the floor, mostly delineating the 8 parts of the clock we mostly use.  It is a great training tool.


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## WhiteTiger (Sep 6, 2003)

Anither one to try,
Long 2 blindfolded, do you finish in the same place and position as you started?  If so your feel for angles and depth in your stances is right on.


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## redfang (Sep 6, 2003)

I never actually marked the floor, but by that point in the form your feet should be back in the same position.


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## theletch1 (Sep 7, 2003)

We didn't use the eight point diagram in my old school but did use your basic cross for 12, 3, 6, and 9 for forms the first couple times you did a form.  I'm not real sure where the instructor got the forms that he used.  They are similar to the EPAK forms but differ a good deal.  I'd love to be able to have one of you all compare the forms to let me know what you think.  I still train in the system here at the house with a couple of other former students and a student from my new school is beginning to join in.  No ranks, just some folks that really love kenpo trying to keep connected to the art.


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## FUZZYJ692000 (Sep 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *In My school, I have part of the Universal Pattern on the floor, mostly delineating the 8 parts of the clock we mostly use.  It is a great training tool. *



the reason for the Universal Pattern on the floor is cause we get a little confused on which way is 9 o'clock and in which direction we started and which way is 12....i think most of us know our left from our rights but it does get confusing and it really helps with the kids too


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## KenpoTess (Sep 11, 2003)

Our Universal pattern on the floor helps in so many ways , from a proper Bow stance to Triangle stepping when we are working with StickDummy 

It helps alot in forms especially the kids  and me who need visual aides 

I use it all the time~!  

Some of us are just still need those red and green mittens


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 11, 2003)

It's worth looking back at medieval-to-Renaissance sword manuals to see very similar patterns on the floors of assorted salles...


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## Seig (Sep 12, 2003)

I also have a "box" on the floor and a traingle, I also have a straight line that has "foot" out lines that we use as an aid when teaching new students a neutral bow.  How bout some other ideas?


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## MisterMike (Sep 15, 2003)

I believe that Short Form 2 is one of the only Kenpo Forms that starts and ends in the exact same place. When we practice though, we begin and end in a Formal Horse Stance for Short/Long 1 and Short/Long 2.

Michael


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 15, 2003)

Uh...with the exception of Short 3, ALL the forms should start/end in the same place.

Ya think that's hard...all the forms are supposed to be done in a six-foot-by-six-foot box, too...and yet my Long 5 remains a box roughly the shape and size of Nebraska.


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## KenpoTess (Sep 15, 2003)

Try as I might, I can't get Long 3 to end up right where I started from.. *goes back to the drawing board*


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *Try as I might, I can't get Long 3 to end up right where I started from.. *



It's not supposed to. You should end up one stance over to the right.:asian:


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## KenpoTess (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *It's not supposed to. You should end up one stance over to the right.:asian: *



I know


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## MisterMike (Sep 16, 2003)

Hmmm..I respectfully disagree on 'ALL forms but Short 3' ending in the same place. The closest ones I can get to that are Short 2 and 6.

I'm sure there are differences in the placement of shuffles that may make our versions different and it may be attributed to this (and many other things).

I've mapped them all out and there is a basic pattern(plus/X/combination) you can follow, and then there is the method of mapping the exact footwork(which is what you are looking at on the floor).

What's more important than whether you start/end in the same place is what's being demonstrated on the different lines of the forms.

My .02


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 17, 2003)

Uh...nope.

The problem with Long 3 probably occurs right at the start, in the "extensions," to the "Crashing Wings," material...after the right hammer to the groin (one application) on the right side, you reverse the motion of the arm and hand, and (one application) throw an opponent to your right, going into a forward bow, yes?

Well, as the hands come down again and you move to the "other side," of Crash. Wings, the right foot drags back in, and you end up in a narrow horse stance, before moving to that other side; and, after the "throw," to your left, you drag the left foot back in, and move to another narrrowed horse stance before moving on to the next tech, Parting Wings...this will mean that your center line keeps returning to where you started...as for the applications, well, some of 'em are beyond me.

And sorry too, but with the exception of Short 3--which plays around with establishing new lines down which to work--all the forms through Long 6 certainly are meant to begin and end in the same place. 'Course with me, this should be translated as, "pretty much in the same place."

Uh...just checked, twice. It works, certainly with Long 3.

I am sorry, but this isn't a difference of opinion.


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## MisterMike (Sep 17, 2003)

Well, I agree to disagree. It certainly isn't opinon if we were each taught differently. We're both relying on facts from out teachers.

Also, approximately and exactly are certainly a world of difference. I was referring to the latter, and most Kenpo forms don't end exactly where they started.


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 17, 2003)

Um...I know it's harping, but it isn't just opinion.

Let me put it this way: I can explain why the forms start and end in the same place. I can explain why Short 3 doesn't. So--what's your explanation for the point of origin changing? For the new point of origin--that is, why's it changed to where it's changed? And how would you then explain to a student the idea of "measure,"--for, say, stances--if their yardstick gets changed and moved?


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## MisterMike (Sep 17, 2003)

The forms were put in place to encapsulate the system. There are themes throughout the forms. The object was not to throw a bunch of techniques together, left and right sides, and hope you ended in the same place. Some forms, as I mentioned earlier, come close, but this was not the main intent of Mr. Parker.

I'd also question your statement that Short 3 is not symmetrical. If you look deeper, there is symmetry, even though the techniques are not mirrors of each other.

Also, I already agreed it is not opinion. Just the difference of what you've learned and what I have.

I'm confident in all of the reasoning I've learned as to why the forms are put together the way they were, but to elaborate much further would take a large book. You have to keep in mind that with all the McDojo's out there, there are bound to be various watered down versions. As far as changing the length of stances, I haven't seen that.


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *It certainly isn't opinon if we were each taught differently. We're both relying on facts from out teachers.*



If I were in front of you right now I would shake your hand and say that's one of the best statements ever put on MT.:asian:  It's probably because of this that my transition during Repeated Devestation that puts me over "about" 1 of my stances. Take what you want of this, put it under debate, I don't care; if it's incorrect then in someone's eyes it's incorrect. :asian:


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## MisterMike (Sep 17, 2003)

Thanks Jason! Yeah, you'd probably want to stay in their centerline for the whole technique while running Repeated D.  

I've found that there's right, wrong, and everything else inbetween. 

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Thanks Jason! Yeah, you'd probably want to stay in their centerline for the whole technique while running Repeated D. *



It's not so different. After executing the right side of R.D. I step back to a natural stance before executing the left side. When stepping out to horse, then up towards the angle with the elbow I come back to natural then I perform the left side. After doing the left side it comes back to horse with the left punchdown. This is what puts me over. If it's wrong then it is. If it's different then it's different. If it's right then I guess someone will come back and explain that it's wrong. :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2003)

OK, first off, please read what I wrote. Nothing in it says that Short 3 isn't symmetrical; it says that it's the only form that doesn't begin and end in the same place. However--if we want to discuss symmetry, why then, NONE of the forms are in fact symmetrical. Nor is the human body.

Second off--sorry, but I believe it to be an error, not ending where you've begun. Please look at pages 53-4 of Inf. Insights, vol. 4, which discusses this under Short 2, and ties the concept to bad footwork during the form. I realize that will bug folks, sorry. But I notice that nobody can give a reason WHY the shift's supposed to happen. Nor does such explanation take volumes to begin.

Look: you end in the same place a) because of "point of origin," b) because it teaches you where the different places on the clock are, c) because it teaches properly-measured footwork, d) because of the concept of, "center," e) because it teaches where your "space," is and how to come back to it; f) because if you do the footwork right, it works out that way, g) the "reference point," for this form is a horse stance oriented to 12:00, with the center line of the body on the center line of the form.

If you put in the stuff I mentioned, the Rpt. Devastation part won't matter--especially because the form has the step to 12:00, not 1:30 as in the technique isolated. 

Again--I apologize, please take it as simply a passionate statement. But it isn't, "all good." Not all of this is, "opinion." Nor does, "tailoring," mean changing for no reason. 

Eppur si muove, folks. Not everything is right in this way, any more than all opinions have equal weight in science--you don't have to believe that the earth moves in an elliptical orbit, or that we evolved, but well...there's the prob with the mountains of evidence.

I'll try and shut up now, since I don't mean to tick anybody off. But unless I can see some reasoning...nope, not gonna buy it.


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## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

> OK, first off, please read what I wrote. Nothing in it says that Short 3 isn't symmetrical; it says that it's the only form that doesn't begin and end in the same place



I understand the difference between symmetry and start/end point. I just thought you were relating them when you said Short 3 didn't start/end in the same place and all the others did because of symmetry.

Just a wrong assumption on my part.

But have you really mapped out the forms. Maybe you should get a bunch of popsicle sticks and use that as the basis of the length of a neutral bow, then lay them all out for us, (- / \ | ) and map the forms. I don't think you'll find too many starting/ending in the same place. Oh, if it's a cat stance, break one in half. Haha..no, in all honesty, the forms were not even designed to start/endin the same place. That was not the INTENT.


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *... in all honesty, the forms were not even designed to start/endin the same place. That was not the INTENT. *




I agree.:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *If you put in the stuff I mentioned, the Rpt. Devastation part won't matter--especially because the form has the step to 12:00, not 1:30 as in the technique isolated. *



Are you telling me that you step toward 12 o'clock when executing both the Repeated Devestation techniques?


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 19, 2003)

Yeah, I have. Or more precisely, the forms have mapped out the way I "step," which--as I mentioned--is one of their purposes. 

And yes, step to 12:00 with Rpt. Dev. The form's oriented to 12:00 anyway, though it won't matter to the start/end point. Did you try the ceding/regaining ground stuff in the section with Crashing Wing?

I'm still interested in an answer to the question I asked earlier: doesn't it bother anybody that I can explain why the forms should begin/end in the same place (though I'll bet I'm missing out on half the reasons), and so far nobody's posted any reasons for them NOT to, or explaining the logic of having the points of origin move?

I understand they often do change in traditional arts. But...

By the way, it's not like I'm saying that I've got this stuff down pat. I'm just saying that this is how it should be...


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 19, 2003)

At this point in time I am having problems with my back and left leg. So no, I haven't tried the material in which you suggested. Although little by little and a lot of therapy I'm hoping to be able to do forms and techniques in the very near future. Right now it just kind of hurts and there are nerve pains going through my leg. If you in fact were referring to me then I will take your challenge as soon as I possibly can. Maybe you are that much better than me or know that more than I but that doesn't really matter to much with me.  Right now I'm kind of wishing that I had a video tape on long 3 from someone for viewing/reviewing but don't have one. :asian:


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## MisterMike (Sep 19, 2003)

> Yeah, I have. Or more precisely, the forms have mapped out the way I "step," which--as I mentioned--is one of their purposes.



I agree here. The forms are for the feet.



> I'm still interested in an answer to the question I asked earlier: doesn't it bother anybody that I can explain why the forms should begin/end in the same place (though I'll bet I'm missing out on half the reasons), and so far nobody's posted any reasons for them NOT to, or explaining the logic of having the points of origin move?



I feel it is what happens in between the start/end point that matters. You could have random flailing and end up in the same place again, but it wouldn't show you the relationship between the forms. The forms are built on each other and while their creation probably spanned 20 years, I don't have this long to explain all the why's, nor do I know them all. But if I may summarize what I do know:

If you were to overlap the forms, you will see a trend, or pattern being built along the 8 directions. There are of course themes in the forms, Basics, Grabs, Combinations, Takedowns, Weapons...etc. The forms are your catalogue, and contain all the motion of Kenpo. Techniques are just variations of this motion from the forms. And then of course there is freestyle.

But the point of origin principle is best left for individual movements, rather than comparing one move, and the 100th or so at the end of a form. My word may not be gospel, but for what I am searching for in the forms, it makes sense to me.


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 19, 2003)

Must be the week for neck and back: mine's killing me, after lots of forward/reverse shoulder rolls on Wednesday, too much driving, and too much screwing around on forums--got myself into a truly embarassing and stupid argument, couldn't summon the sense to tunnel back out.

Perhaps it's justice--but I'm still right about the forms.


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 22, 2003)

Ok, I went through long 3 today. Slowly but nonetheless I found out something interesting however. I was trying to make all transitions as good as possible. We have those jigsaw mats on the floor and I decided to start my natural stance into destructive twins directly over my centerline over a junction corner. Anyway back to the story. I noticed that I ended up about one transition stance short of the direct starting point. After careful thought there are 2 glancing spears moving backward plus stepping back into a horse with pinning wing. Moving forward there are only 2 Desperate Falcons. This put me one short. What's your thoughts?


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 22, 2003)

I spoke to Mr. Tatum, over the weekend, about the "point of origin," idea for the forms--his comment was the the reason for it, in the fixed forms, is so that, "the forms will be symmetrical to themselves." Part of this, apparently, is so that when you work one line, you then go back and "reverse," working the other side of that same line. I was saying somewhat--but only somewhat--the same thing, when I argued that the forms are meant to teach a kind of, "mapping." But it's gonna be awhile before I have much of a sense of what he meant...

He also noted that one's own forms--made after the basic forms are learned--don't necessarily have to start and end in the same place; other matters are being explored. I'd add that traditional forms often aren't symmetrical, either...

But I still suspect that with Long 3, the problem's in the Crashing Wings section; the way I learned it, you "cheat," your feet off from the center line when you go into the base form, so you have to "cheat," back to center after the throws on both sides...which'll take you back to the original horse, centered on the original attention stance in which you began...

I know it's all what we're used to, but the main form I have tropuble keeping centered remains Long 5...big as Nebraska, and with a drifting state capital too..

Short 3? Not a prob...the "center," moves left, just as it's supposed to...


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *...the main form I have tropuble keeping centered remains Long 5...big as Nebraska, and with a drifting state capital too..*



Yeah man I hear you there. Both of the parallel lines get often confusing plus that damned hopping crane   That's a whole other issue for another thread. On long 3 I was taught to take 2 adjust steps on crashing wings to move from the elephant stance to horse. The only problem I found was like I said 3 steps back then 2 forward. Again this could just be a matter of instructor, lineage, personal interpretations, surroundings, virtually many factors. Too bad we all can't get along.:asian:


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## MisterMike (Sep 25, 2003)

Jason,

I have mapped out the footwork in the forms and also done a small analysis on the angle changes. I posted Short 1 thru Long 2 on my site here:

http://www.ancientscents.com/kenpo/short1.html
http://www.ancientscents.com/kenpo/long1.html
http://www.ancientscents.com/kenpo/short2.html
http://www.ancientscents.com/kenpo/long2.html

What helps my study is looking at the current stance, the foot maneuver following, and the destination stance. Also colored is the angle change. The gray lines are the current stance location and the green lines are the destination.

If you do this for all of the forms, you will pick up on the patterns and matches, as everything has an opposite and reverse. You can see this right away in Long 1, but if you look, some of the angle mathces for Short/Long 2 do not appear until later forms. Don't worry about my weak naming conventions, as I have not classified all of them yet, but this is what I used to get started.

This is also why I never focused on whether the forms started/ended in the same place, but where the relationships lay.

Now you've got me wanting to finish my search  :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Sep 25, 2003)

Excellent: I have students who will be visiting your website.

Kudos,
-Michael


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 25, 2003)

Sigh. I don't mean to be repetitive and indeed pedantic--it just happens--but you know, it might help discussion if you didn't throw in cracks like, "that is why I never focused on..." In the first place...well, you get my point.

In the second and more important place, if every move in the forms has, as you note, a "forward and reverse," (and they don't, exactly), this would suggest constantly returning to the same reference point.

And I'd note that there are a couple variations from the originals in the ways you mapped out, say, Short 2. The original had a c-step, not an l-step; there's a transitional cat stance between the step-through and heel palm to 4:30 and the step-through and heel-palm to 7:30; there're cat stances to 1:30 and 10:30 near the end, before the neutral bows; and (not necessarily necessary to point out, but still) there're forward bows with the punches.

Thanks.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 25, 2003)

The forward and reverses do not necessarily occur in the same form, although many do in Long Form 2 especially, as we see sophisticated basics.  

I do not particularly care for these nor do I teach them, although over the years I have seen Huk's tapes and in the 80's and early 90's done lots of seminars with him, I just am not into catagory completion and the way he uses the forms to teach "everything".   I assume this is where MisterMike's orientation came from, somewhere back down his lineage, since that way of looking at forms was spread far and wide in the 80's by Huk, and Mr. Parker often referred to him as the Encyclopedia of Forms.  

I see it turning up from people who have never met the man, but his seminars to other's have somehow permeated and spread through lots of Kenpo practitioners that are 3rd, 4th or even now 5th generation removed from Mr. Parker.

It is one way of looking at Forms and what they teach.  But not the only way.  I tend to be much more application oriented, even when we are doing forms that are teaching basics or sophisticated basics and not techniques per se.

-MB


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## MisterMike (Sep 25, 2003)

Oh Robert,

I didn't mean anything by it. :asian: Sometimes things don't come across as intended, but I was only referring to whay I've studied and didn't mean to sounds as though no-one else should be looking at POO in the forms. It wasn't meant as a crack.

One reason I've noticed for they way MY forms are spread out is that there are shuffles placed throughout which some people may not put in. 

As for the C-step and other transitions, I did not use a lot of terms that may be the same as other schools, and I also left out inplace transitions. But the forward bows are all mentioned ;-)

I kind of used theterm "Cover" generically.

Kind regards,


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## MisterMike (Sep 25, 2003)

> I assume this is where MisterMike's orientation came from



Yes, Michael, you're correct here. Mr. Planas' influence is very strong in my Kenpo lineage 

I especially like the category completions, as well as finding the applications in the techniques.


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## BlackPhoenix (Apr 7, 2004)

The Best Way To Find This Out Is To Ask " Huk ".  That's Where I Got My Information From.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 8, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Uh...with the exception of Short 3, ALL the forms should start/end in the same place.
> 
> Ya think that's hard...all the forms are supposed to be done in a six-foot-by-six-foot box, too...and yet my Long 5 remains a box roughly the shape and size of Nebraska.


I gave up on practicing LF4 & 5 anywhere but in a field. Kept having to navigate studio walls...I hate it when that happens.  BTW, where did you get the thing about the 6x6 box?  Don't think I ever heard that before.


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 8, 2004)

The mat in tournaments is 6 x 6 meters, maybe 7 x 7, I'm not sure. But certainly not 6 x 6 foot


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 17, 2004)

Err, more like 3 x 3 meters, with another meter as buffer zone in combats. But I'm still not sure. The mat at university is used mainly by TKD guys and memory can fail me.


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