# Books I strongly recommend for SD



## jmf552 (Sep 5, 2021)

I have recently gone on a reading binge of H2H self defense books that are not from a martial arts perspective, but from people who train professionals who are likely to encounter real violence and need to be able to dependably deal with it. Some of the books I've read stand out. I have seen some people here mention Rory Miller and I have long been a fan of his, although his first book, "Meditations on Violence" is a hard read. He even admits his later book, "Facing Violence" is much better and perhaps the best thing he's done. His experience as a career corrections officer has gotten him in a lot of altercations with hardened criminals. I also like Tim Larkin's book, "When Violence is the Answer."

But the best book I have read so far is Varg Freeborn's "Violence of Mind." Freeborn grew up in a family of violent criminals and at 19, went to prison for stabbing a guy who was trying to kill him. He claims that between his upbringing and prison, he has been in over a hundred fights that had deadly potential. He has shot people and been shot. He has stabbed people and been stabbed. But he turned his life around, got his rights restored by the courts, including being able to own firearms. He threw himself into the study of the martial arts, including H2H and firearms. He now teaches security personnel and police, tactics to deal with violence. 

What Freeborn saw a need for in martial training is mental orientation towards violence. He said he learned great techniques, but the mental aspects were either not taught, glossed over or taught wrong. He felt many, although certainly not all, instructors have not dealt with with violence and have a lot of wrong ideas about it. What he learned on the mean streets and prison was that handling violence is 80% mental and your worst threat is most often someone who has no formal training at all, but who knows violence very well. The mental aspect is way more complicated than I imagined.  The fact that you and I are not hardened criminals puts us at a disadvantage, but there are ways to bridge the gap. You won't come away from reading his book with that all solved, but you will be able to assess where you are at in relation to violence and you will know what you have to do.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2021)

I just looked, and it appears the book is available to read for free with my Kindle Unlimited subscription, so I’ll check it out.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2021)

Just downloaded the book and read through it. Well written, easy read, good material. I recommend it.


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## Buka (Sep 5, 2021)

On eBay the cheapest is 26 bucks. On Amazon the cheapest used copy is fifteen bucks.

No fair!


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## jmf552 (Sep 6, 2021)

Buka said:


> On eBay the cheapest is 26 bucks. On Amazon the cheapest used copy is fifteen bucks.
> 
> No fair!


It is well worth it. But if you really can't afford it, put the author's name into YouTube. He has his own channel and he has been interviewed on lot of other channels. You will get a lot of his ideas from listening to him. 

I listened to the book on Audible and liked it so much I also got the Kindle version for refererence.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 6, 2021)

Buka said:


> On eBay the cheapest is 26 bucks. On Amazon the cheapest used copy is fifteen bucks.
> 
> No fair!


The Kindle edition is only $10, and you can get the Kindle app for free on your phone, tablet, or computer.


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## Buka (Sep 8, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The Kindle edition is only $10, and you can get the Kindle app for free on your phone, tablet, or computer.


Thanks, Tony, I appreciate it, but I can't do that, I don't do apps. Why? I dunno, I just don't. I'll get the book. I love books. I mean, heck, you can't dog ear an app.


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## Cynik75 (Sep 8, 2021)

Book for self defence? Thick one. 
It will stop the knife or sometimes even bullet.


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## geezer (Sep 18, 2021)

Buka said:


> Thanks, Tony, I appreciate it, but I can't do that, I don't do apps. Why? I dunno, I just don't. I'll get the book. I love books. I mean, heck, you can't dog ear an app.


_"I don't do apps"_ ...Man, you are really old school, Buka.  I mean I don't either ...but my _wife_ does. Problem solved!


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## geezer (Sep 18, 2021)

As far as _books _for self-defense, I recommend a good _Random House_ or _Merriam Webster's Collegiate_ dictionary, hardbound. A good size and weight for one hand or two and really packs a wallop. 

For daily carry, I also resort to the _newspaper_ (yes I still get the print copy) tightly rolled. But in recent years it's gotten a bit thin and light for my taste. I guess you really _can't _depend on the print media like you used too.

For _magazines_, if you can find them, _National Geographic_ is an old favorite. Duck tape a few issues under your shirt, and be sure to remember the sides, right up tight against your armpits, and you have a reasonable defense against a knife attack to the body. Got that gem from an acquaintance who served time.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> What he learned on the mean streets and prison was that handling violence is 80% mental and your worst threat is most often someone who has no formal training at all, but who knows violence very well. The mental aspect is way more complicated than I imagined. The fact that you and I are not hardened criminals puts us at a disadvantage


Excellent point.  Great for you to bring it up.  Too often we martial artists get too caught up in the execution of the physical technique and the physical application of it.  But just knowing physically how to do and apply it is different than having the "mental, emotional, spiritual will" to effectively use them against a violent animal trying to kill you. 

I used quotes above because I think those words are not completely accurate, but the best I could come up with on the spot.  It's really something more _primitive_. And I used the word "animal" to stress that those we're talking about have little or no human moral restraints.

Most of us civilized folks have not developed this primitive trait for lack of survival need and us being taught since childhood to adhere to civilized social norms.  This indeed "puts us at a disadvantage," though years of great MA training can help _partially _compensate.  Those who live in daily life or death environments such as the mean streets, prison, or extended military combat, or have been especially taught violence in SpecOps, for example, have developed this primitive ability to operate as killers when needed.  The rest of us have our work cut out for us.  I am one of those.

So this is something most of us need to accept and work on in our MA training, if we really want to be able to go toe-to-toe against a committed, hardened, violent foe.  We need to put as much effort in this aspect as we do practicing the physical techniques.  Violent intent has to be added to our moves.


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## Buka (Sep 19, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Excellent point.  Great for you to bring it up.  Too often we martial artists get too caught up in the execution of the physical technique and the physical application of it.  But just knowing physically how to do and apply it is different than having the "mental, emotional, spiritual will" to effectively use them against a violent animal trying to kill you.
> 
> I used quotes above because I think those words are not completely accurate, but the best I could come up with on the spot.  It's really something more _primitive_. And I used the word "animal" to stress that those we're talking about have little or no human moral restraints.
> 
> ...


I really wish our sight would allow us to use more than one like/agree thingy.


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## dvcochran (Sep 19, 2021)

Buka said:


> I really wish our sight would allow us to use more than one like/agree thingy.


Yes, and I wise the 'informative' choice would come back.


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## Hanzou (Sep 19, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Excellent point.  Great for you to bring it up.  Too often we martial artists get too caught up in the execution of the physical technique and the physical application of it.  But just knowing physically how to do and apply it is different than having the "mental, emotional, spiritual will" to effectively use them against a violent animal trying to kill you.
> 
> I used quotes above because I think those words are not completely accurate, but the best I could come up with on the spot.  It's really something more _primitive_. And I used the word "animal" to stress that those we're talking about have little or no human moral restraints.
> 
> ...



I really have to ask though; If you're an adult male in a western country like the U.S., Canada, Western Europe, etc. and you don't work in a field where you're likely to encounter consistent violence, where do you honestly think you're going to need a high degree of self defense skills? If you're a woman who has to travel at night, a teacher in a high school in the inner city, a prison guard, a cop, etc. I can understand why you would need to concern yourself with SD skills and you should train accordingly.

However, if you're just some guy in an office, living in the suburbs with your wife and kids, in what scenario do you _*really*_ see yourself having to apply these skills against a "violent animal"? In that situation the only thing I can think of is some home invasion situation, and with that you're better off simply buying a good home security system.

Not attacking you or anything, but sometimes I think men in MA have this idea that we're in the wild west and there's threats lurking around every corner.  It's the same mentality as the guys who stockpile guns in their houses because they're afraid of the "thugs" planning to raid their home.


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## dvcochran (Sep 19, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I really have to ask though; If you're an adult male in a western country like the U.S., Canada, Western Europe, etc. and you don't work in a field where you're likely to encounter consistent violence, where do you honestly think you're going to need a high degree of self defense skills? If you're a woman who has to travel at night, a teacher in a high school in the inner city, a prison guard, a cop, etc. I can understand why you would need to concern yourself with SD skills and you should train accordingly.
> 
> However, if you're just some guy in an office, living in the suburbs with your wife and kids, in what scenario do you _*really*_ see yourself having to apply these skills against a "violent animal"? In that situation the only thing I can think of is some home invasion situation, and with that you're better off simply buying a good home security system.
> 
> Not attacking you or anything, but sometimes I think men in MA have this idea that we're in the wild west and there's threats lurking around every corner.  It's the same mentality as the guys who stockpile guns in their houses because they're afraid of the "thugs" planning to raid their home.


I do think this is 100% true but you are definitely on the right track. 
A lot of folks (like me) got started for the workout aspect and later for the competition.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 19, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> However, if you're just some guy in an office, living in the suburbs with your wife and kids, in what scenario do you _*really*_ see yourself having to apply these skills against a "violent animal"?


There's a saying, "Hope for the best, prepare for the worse."  Don't know where you're from, but even those in "good" U.S. city neighborhoods may encounter a violent attacker.  And suburbanites travel to areas less than good for a night out, a visit, or to stop for gas, etc.

I think it's important for martial artists to understand there is a limit to what their technique can accomplish in certain combat encounters under extreme duress if not supported by a true martial/survival attitude.  Many practitioners use MA simply for exercise or as a healthy and interesting hobby, or even for competition.  That's fine.  Hopefully we can all get thru life without getting beaten half to death.

A decent practitioner can handle many soft to medium self-defense situations; 90% of the time this will be enough.  (There's probably less than a 10% chance one will die this year, but then why does one have life insurance?)  But for that heavy, life threatening violent encounter with someone who has no problem bashing your head in, more than decent skill and a tournament attitude may be needed. It is not unreasonable to be prepared for that 10%.

I'm not paranoid, but do have situational awareness.  There are dangers of all types about us, many we are not aware of.  I know I've reached into a brick pile and later discovered black widow spiders residing there.  You just never know when something will bite you.  But I look at the type of training we're talking about in this thread as just another facet to develop as part of my karate training, along with drills, kata, heavy resistance practice, philosophy, sparring, etc. Not out of fear.  Just part of my craft.


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## Hanzou (Sep 20, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> There's a saying, "Hope for the best, prepare for the worse."  Don't know where you're from, but even those in "good" U.S. city neighborhoods may encounter a violent attacker.  And suburbanites travel to areas less than good for a night out, a visit, or to stop for gas, etc.
> 
> I think it's important for martial artists to understand there is a limit to what their technique can accomplish in certain combat encounters under extreme duress if not supported by a true martial/survival attitude.  Many practitioners use MA simply for exercise or as a healthy and interesting hobby, or even for competition.  That's fine.  Hopefully we can all get thru life without getting beaten half to death.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty much from all over the US (military family). Unless you're Batman, there's little reason for you to be running around a bad neighborhood. Now, if you're going downtown for a night on the town, there's a chance you could get mugged, but if someone pulls a gun on you and wants your wallet, just give them your wallet and run away. What's the alternative? Attempting to Jump kick them? If you're at a bar and some guy is puffing his chest out and wants to fight, just get up and leave.

In all seriousness, in what scenario do you feel that you're in constant danger? Again, if you're an attractive woman who has to walk around at night or catch a subway, I can understand. However, the chances that some rando is going to attack and assault the average sized western male is highly unlikely. Add to that the situational awareness you described above, and it becomes even less likely.

If you're that worried, get a gym pass and some protein shakes and bulk up. That will prevent more issues coming your way than a martial art will. It's cheaper to boot, and will help get you laid.


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## geezer (Sep 20, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> If you're that worried, get a gym pass and some protein shakes and bulk up. That will prevent more issues coming your way than a martial art will. It's cheaper to boot, and will help get you laid.


Hmmm.... after you pass a certain age, the gym thing doesn't do so much as a deterrent (although it may be important for your health), and even getting laid doesn't seem so important. My dad verified this. He put away his viagra while still in his eighties. He's 96 now. 

Around here a lot of old people carry if they are concerned about being mugged, but I'm glad my old dad has put away his guns too.


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## jmf552 (Sep 21, 2021)

I think it's interesting that some people on a martial arts site have little concern for real self defense. Isn't that the core of the martial arts historically? Are martial artists OK with their art being watered down to only a sport or a form of moving meditation? I had an instructor who said studying the martial arts without learning real H2H combat is like going to the shoe store and only coming back with a shoebox.

No matter where you live or where you travel, violent crime can happen. Even if it is not likely, when it does happen, it will take all you've got. Capituating to an attacker may not save you. We have fire alarms and extinguishers even though we will probably never have a fire. We wear seat belts even though we may never have an accident. Preparedness is about hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

I will avoid any fight that I can. But I will not become that running joke of a martial artist who spends years studying but gets his butt kicked in a real fight.


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## Cynik75 (Sep 21, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> .....But I will not become that running joke of a martial artist who spends years studying but gets his butt kicked in a real fight.


Some time ago I posted in other threads about my gymmate (4 stripes BJJ brown belt, good wrestler, MMA fighter, experienced bouncer) the one who fought in WOTORE (bare knuckle MMA with no weigh limits) and lost half of ear in street fight.  
He died a few day ago because of brain injury sustained in street brawl.


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## Buka (Sep 21, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Some time ago I posted in other threads about my gymmate (4 stripes BJJ brown belt, good wrestler, MMA fighter, experienced bouncer) the one who fought in WOTORE (bare knuckle MMA with no weigh limits) and lost half of ear in street fight.
> He died a few day ago because of brain injury sustained in street brawl.


So sorry for your loss, Cynic75. May he Rest In Peace.


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## Cynik75 (Sep 21, 2021)

I've posted this only as an exemplification that even being high level combat athlete does not make anybody untouchable.
He refused to go to hospital after he was beaten by a few guys, next day he fainted and died in hospital.


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## Hanzou (Sep 21, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I think it's interesting that some people on a martial arts site have little concern for real self defense. Isn't that the core of the martial arts historically? Are martial artists OK with their art being watered down to only a sport or a form of moving meditation? I had an instructor who said studying the martial arts without learning real H2H combat is like going to the shoe store and only coming back with a shoebox.



I'm afraid that the vast majority of martial arts history is horse manure. Keep in mind that the Asian countries where the majority of modern martial arts come from were rather easily conquered by Europeans with guns and modern weapons in the 19th and 20th centuries. The only country to escape that fate was Japan, and they did that by completely abolishing their feudal warrior caste who practiced classical martial arts (the samurai).

Even before that, the Ming Dynasty was conquered rather easily by the Manchus in 1644. The majority of classical Chinese martial art systems come from that period where various secret societies sprung up and trained hidden forms of Kung Fu to fight back against the Manchu invaders. Despite the various martial arts that blossomed in that period, and the rebellions they sprang, they never retook the country from the Manchus.

Karate didn't do much to stop the Satsuma clan from taking over Okinawa.

The Boxer Rebellion didn't prevent the western powers from retaking their possessions in China.

The "watered down" western boxers and wrestlers often ventured into China and Japan and rather easily stomped the martial arts masters there.

When Jigaro Kano turned jujutsu into a sport with a modern (western) methodology, he turned it on the classical Japanese martial arts community and easily beat them.

So what glorious past are you trying to reclaim here? What exactly has been "watered down"?


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## jmf552 (Sep 22, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'm afraid that the vast majority of martial arts history is horse manure. Keep in mind that the Asian countries where the majority of modern martial arts come from were rather easily conquered by Europeans with guns and modern weapons in the 19th and 20th centuries. The only country to escape that fate was Japan, and they did that by completely abolishing their feudal warrior caste who practiced classical martial arts (the samurai).
> 
> Even before that, the Ming Dynasty was conquered rather easily by the Manchus in 1644. The majority of classical Chinese martial art systems come from that period where various secret societies sprung up and trained hidden forms of Kung Fu to fight back against the Manchu invaders. Despite the various martial arts that blossomed in that period, and the rebellions they sprang, they never retook the country from the Manchus.
> 
> ...


I am not talking about obscure historical events. The historical reference was only to say that the people who started nearly every martial art could fight real fights, hand to hand, in their environment. Today, a person can train for years at just about any martial arts studio and still get his *** kicked by a street fighter. That should not be the case.


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## Hanzou (Sep 22, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I am not talking about obscure historical events. The historical reference was only to say that the people who started nearly every martial art could fight real fights, hand to hand, in their environment. Today, a person can train for years at just about any martial arts studio and still get his *** kicked by a street fighter. That should not be the case.



And that's my point; You don't know if that's true. In fact, all the evidence shows that it isn't true. Additionally, Martial Artists living today would wipe the floor with martial artists from the past. Humans are bigger, stronger, faster, and elite martial artists are better trained across the board.


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## jmf552 (Sep 22, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> And that's my point; You don't know if that's true. In fact, all the evidence shows that it isn't true. Additionally, Martial Artists living today would wipe the floor with martial artists from the past. Humans are bigger, stronger, faster, and elite martial artists are better trained across the board.


If my assertion is not true, why were the arts created? There doesn't seem to be a point. And if I don't know that history is true, you don't know that it's "manure." The truth of history is hard to determine without eye witnesses. 

And today's martial artists might be all those things, but the point made by all three books I recommended is that doesn't translate into being able to defend against asocial violence.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 22, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Today, a person can train for years at just about any martial arts studio and still get his *** kicked by a street fighter. That should not be the case.


How do you know that this is true?  There are far too many folks involved in the martial arts today to be able to evaluate them all.  So you are left I suppose, with an uncontrolled sample of YouTube evidence?  But surely you know that not all of life is captured on YouTube.

I do not believe you can make a blanket statement such as the one above, with any hope for accuracy across the board.  In some cases, your statement is surely accurate.  In others, not at all.  But that is the reality of life.   Some folks are good, others are not.  No surprise there.  That in no way negates the value of martial training.


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## Hanzou (Sep 22, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> If my assertion is not true, why were the arts created? There doesn't seem to be a point. And if I don't know that history is true, you don't know that it's "manure." The truth of history is hard to determine without eye witnesses.
> 
> And today's martial artists might be all those things, but the point made by all three books I recommended is that doesn't translate into being able to defend against asocial violence.



The martial arts were created for a variety of reasons in a variety of areas. Some were created for military purposes, others were created for protection against bandits or animals, some were created for sport, some were created for rebellious purposes, etc.

Were there some legitimate bad asses that could beat people up in medieval Asia? I’m sure. However, to believe that there’s been some huge decline in skill level, and that old masters from medieval times were far superior to what people are doing today is laughable. 

The first UFCs showed just how absolutely laughable that belief is.


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## Buka (Sep 22, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> And that's my point; You don't know if that's true. In fact, all the evidence shows that it isn't true. Additionally, Martial Artists living today would wipe the floor with martial artists from the past. Humans are bigger, stronger, faster, and elite martial artists are better trained across the board.


Carve that in stone.


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## Buka (Sep 22, 2021)

As for the history of all the Arts.....

You know and I know that history books/courses taught in schools, even at the highest levels of education, are not always correct. Sometimes things are lost in translation and/or memory, but many times it's purposely told in a skewed way.

As a young man I studied Martial Arts history. I stopped about twenty years ago.

After all, there ain't no bs in Martial Arts. Certainly won't find any in it's history.


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## jmf552 (Sep 22, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> How do you know that this is true?  There are far too many folks involved in the martial arts today to be able to evaluate them all.  So you are left I suppose, with an uncontrolled sample of YouTube evidence?  But surely you know that not all of life is captured on YouTube.
> 
> I do not believe you can make a blanket statement such as the one above, with any hope for accuracy across the board.  In some cases, your statement is surely accurate.  In others, not at all.  But that is the reality of life.   Some folks are good, others are not.  No surprise there.  That in no way negates the value of martial training.


I do think I can make that blanket statement, because no school teaches the dynamics of real violence and hardly an instructors know it. Read the references I posted in the OP. They will open your eyes.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 23, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I do think I can make that blanket statement, because no school teaches the dynamics of real violence and hardly an instructors know it. Read the references I posted in the OP. They will open your eyes.


You know this? About every school and every teacher?  How do you know this?


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## jmf552 (Sep 23, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You know this? About every school and every teacher?  How do you know this?


You know it too. Prove me wrong. Show me the curriculum of a school that does the kind of mental training described in the references I gave.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 23, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'm afraid that the vast majority of martial arts history is horse manure. Keep in mind that the Asian countries where the majority of modern martial arts come from were rather easily conquered by Europeans with guns and modern weapons in the 19th and 20th centuries. The only country to escape that fate was Japan, and they did that by completely abolishing their feudal warrior caste who practiced classical martial arts (the samurai).
> 
> Even before that, the Ming Dynasty was conquered rather easily by the Manchus in 1644. The majority of classical Chinese martial art systems come from that period where various secret societies sprung up and trained hidden forms of Kung Fu to fight back against the Manchu invaders. Despite the various martial arts that blossomed in that period, and the rebellions they sprang, they never retook the country from the Manchus.
> 
> ...


Your entire premise is wrong.  You are equating limited "secret societies" with armies.  A few hundred kung fu experts get beat by 100,000 strong hoard???   Or the few hundred Boxers being defeated by the weight and power of the European Empires???  Really, is this proof of the martial arts' inferiority???

Satsuma began their "take over" of Okinawa in 1609, prior to the development of karate.  So, you're wrong there also.

About judo easily beating other MA styles, where is this info from?  Maybe if judo rules were used, which would be inherently unfair.  And are you saying the sport version of jujutsu (judo) is more effective than the combat version for self-defense?  That makes no sense.  Besides, Kano was much impressed by Okinawan karate.

I do smell manure, but it's not from TMA.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Your entire premise is wrong.  You are equating limited "secret societies" with armies.  A few hundred kung fu experts get beat by 100,000 strong hoard???   Or the few hundred Boxers being defeated by the weight and power of the European Empires???  Really, is this proof of the martial arts' inferiority???
> 
> Satsuma began their "take over" of Okinawa in 1609, prior to the development of karate.  So, you're wrong there also.



So you're saying that in the span of world history rebellions have never been successful? That's an interesting take. Especially when the argument I was responding to was that medieval martial artists in Asia were supermen with incredible martial art abilities.

As for Karate, you're arguing semantics. Neither the forerunner of Karate or Karate itself did much to stop the Satsuma clan from dominating Okinawa and making it a permanent part of Japan.


isshinryuronin said:


> About judo easily beating other MA styles, where is this info from?  Maybe if judo rules were used, which would be inherently unfair.  And are you saying the sport version of jujutsu (judo) is more effective than the combat version for self-defense?  That makes no sense.  Besides, Kano was much impressed by Okinawan karate.



The info is from the early days of Judo. Judo ended up completely replacing classical Jujutsu within about 20 years of its founding after multiple exhibitions and fights. In 1905, 18 heads of various JJJ ryus submitted to the Kodakan and joined Kano, making Judo the dominant martial art in Japan.

I don't know why this seems so incredible to you. The exact same thing happened again with Brazilian JJ (a Judo offshoot) and various martial arts later in the century.

Kano being impressed by Okinawan Karate is rather irrelevant.



isshinryuronin said:


> I do smell manure, but it's not from TMA.



I'm sure.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 23, 2021)

Okay... wasn't going to go into a thread on self defence and get into this side of things, but while we're here...



jmf552 said:


> I think it's interesting that some people on a martial arts site have little concern for real self defense. Isn't that the core of the martial arts historically?



No, in the vast majority of cases. And multiply that by any number of times when we're talking "historically"...



jmf552 said:


> Are martial artists OK with their art being watered down to only a sport or a form of moving meditation?



What makes you think that's the alternative to "self defence" as a training focus/motivation?



jmf552 said:


> I had an instructor who said studying the martial arts without learning real H2H combat is like going to the shoe store and only coming back with a shoebox.



And, historically speaking, learning "martial arts" and doing hand-to-hand is great if you're only going to fight children... for actual combat, you need quite a bit more than that... 



jmf552 said:


> No matter where you live or where you travel, violent crime can happen. Even if it is not likely, when it does happen, it will take all you've got. Capituating to an attacker may not save you. We have fire alarms and extinguishers even though we will probably never have a fire. We wear seat belts even though we may never have an accident. Preparedness is about hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
> 
> I will avoid any fight that I can. But I will not become that running joke of a martial artist who spends years studying but gets his butt kicked in a real fight.



What makes you think "a real fight" is anything like self defence? Or vice-versa?



Hanzou said:


> I'm afraid that the vast majority of martial arts history is horse manure.



True, to a reasonable degree.



Hanzou said:


> Keep in mind that the Asian countries where the majority of modern martial arts come from were rather easily conquered by Europeans with guns and modern weapons in the 19th and 20th centuries.



That's not so easy to agree with... China (not Hong Kong) was a part of the British Empire? When? The British Expansion was also more economical than pure military might... but that's a different conversation. Additionally, you're conflating "martial artists" with "military forces"... and neither are the same as the other.



Hanzou said:


> The only country to escape that fate was Japan, and they did that by completely abolishing their feudal warrior caste who practiced classical martial arts (the samurai).



While the two events happened in the same era (a rather tumultuous one for Japan), the two are not related the way you're insinuating... the abolishment of the samurai (and the entire caste system) came out of the perceived weakness of the Shogunate, in part due to the capitulation to Perry's fleet, but to say that Japan "escaped (being conquered) by... abolishing the samurai class" is rather... wrong.



Hanzou said:


> Even before that, the Ming Dynasty was conquered rather easily by the Manchus in 1644. The majority of classical Chinese martial art systems come from that period where various secret societies sprung up and trained hidden forms of Kung Fu to fight back against the Manchu invaders. Despite the various martial arts that blossomed in that period, and the rebellions they sprang, they never retook the country from the Manchus.



Er... "secret societies"? What? I think maybe a few too many comic books there... care to cite some examples?



Hanzou said:


> Karate didn't do much to stop the Satsuma clan from taking over Okinawa.
> 
> The Boxer Rebellion didn't prevent the western powers from retaking their possessions in China.
> 
> The "watered down" western boxers and wrestlers often ventured into China and Japan and rather easily stomped the martial arts masters there.



They were show attractions in the main... so, yeah, prize fighters and professional wrestlers, in matches set by them, won as part of a public spectacle and attraction... 



Hanzou said:


> When Jigaro Kano turned jujutsu into a sport with a modern (western) methodology, he turned it on the classical Japanese martial arts community and easily beat them.



Jigoro... not Jigaro... but, more to the point, no, that's not what happened in a few counts... while Kano was influenced by Western teaching methods, due to his time at a European-style boarding school, which helped in the restructuring of his training into what would become Kodokan Judo, the aim was not to "turn it into a sport"... instead, the aim was more to use a structured approach to enable a more direct development than the more esoteric approach of classical arts... however, there wasn't a lot of "turn(ing) it on the Classical Japanese martial arts community and easily beat(ing) them"... instead, the Kodokan was initially set up more to be a one-stop location for a wide variety of martial training forms... among them a variety of jujutsu and weaponry schools. The idea he had was largely to have it be the centre of the newly formed Butokukai, becoming the central location for all Japanese martial arts... his idea was to have a "general" syllabus that would then allow students to continue on to specific studies... which is kinda the way that Iaido would later develop in many cases... it wasn't about "beating" the classical arts, but more about a way for the various systems to operate together... and used the training methods of the burgeoning Kodokan as a basis.



Hanzou said:


> So what glorious past are you trying to reclaim here? What exactly has been "watered down"?



Honestly, both of you are, to my mind, rather inaccurate in your understandings of both martial art developments, and history... 



jmf552 said:


> I am not talking about obscure historical events. The historical reference was only to say that the people who started nearly every martial art could fight real fights, hand to hand, in their environment.



Well, that's inaccurate. For one thing, historically speaking, most martial systems were weapons-based... unarmed is a later (peacetime) focus. Secondly, martial systems rarely developed or formed as "self defence" systems... to use Japanese arts as an example, most bushi (warrior) traditions were set up more as systems of education, covering a lot more than combative technologies... in addition, the "combat techniques" often, well, weren't. They were instructional ideals given a combative skin, working on developing the personality as much, if not more, than any technical skills with weapons or in hand-to-hand.

If we shift this across to China, there was a statement that only the rich could afford to learn and study martial arts... for one thing, they were the only ones who had the means to pay for experienced warriors to impart the skills that had kept them alive, but, more realistically, they were the only ones who had the time that could be devoted to any such practice... anyone without that kind of capital was more concerned with day-to-day survival... as a result, in China, in Japan, in Okinawa (where the early generations of karate-ka weren't peasants, but the nobility), martial arts were far less about "self defence", and more about developing a more rounded individual, capable of leading others. It shouldn't be equated with the training you get in the army, but more the education you get in the school system.

You can also shoot the idea of "this is self defence" down by looking at the time-lines... self defence, by it's very nature, needs to be something that can be applied/understood pretty much immediately... it needs to be rather simple, direct, covering the largest area with the smallest amount... martial arts, on the other hand, go in the opposite direction, having depth of study that takes years... so... yeah... your personal take is not really based in reality either.



jmf552 said:


> Today, a person can train for years at just about any martial arts studio and still get his *** kicked by a street fighter. That should not be the case.



There are a lot of caveats that would need to go into that statement... martial systems, by their very nature, are methods that are designed to answer particular problems within a particular cultural context... so, unless you happened to pick a martial art that also happened to deal with the same, or an almost identical cultural context, complete with the same cultural understanding of violence, then... all bets are off, really. The MMA guy without awareness of ambushes and weapons will be stabbed. The karate-ka who doesn't understand groups will get beaten down. The BJJ guy who thinks that the ground is safe will get picked apart by people he never knew were there. 

The problem with equating two superficially related things is that you end up with highly false senses of reality... such as the above quote.



jmf552 said:


> If my assertion is not true, why were the arts created?



Covered above, but largely as educational systems for the upper levels of society. There have been a few exceptions, but historically speaking, that's the main one.



jmf552 said:


> There doesn't seem to be a point.



No, you just don't know the context. Not uncommon, but not the same thing, either... 



jmf552 said:


> And if I don't know that history is true, you don't know that it's "manure." The truth of history is hard to determine without eye witnesses.



That's not a very good argument, really... just because you don't know something doesn't mean that others don't. Your ignorance is not equal to someone else's expertise... oh, and the truth of history is determined by study... the whole "you weren't there!" smacks of not having any understanding of how such things work.



jmf552 said:


> And today's martial artists might be all those things, but the point made by all three books I recommended is that doesn't translate into being able to defend against asocial violence.



This, I agree with. Martial arts are not self defence. Self defence is not found in martial arts. They're two different areas entirely. And being good at one doesn't equate to any kind of guarantee of knowledge or skill in the other.



jmf552 said:


> You know it too. Prove me wrong. Show me the curriculum of a school that does the kind of mental training described in the references I gave.



Hmm... hi! Oh, and add to me a large number of RBSD instructors throughout the world... most notably Jim Wagner, Geoff Thompson, Lee Morrison, Deane Lawler, Richard Dmitri, and a number more... but, here's the thing... most of them don't teach martial arts... and those that do (such as Geoff and myself) don't conflate the two... they're two different things.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 23, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> You know it too. Prove me wrong. Show me the curriculum of a school that does the kind of mental training described in the references I gave.


Well no.  That isn’t how it works.  You are the one making outlandish claims, so the burden of proof is on you.  Explain to me how you know this is true of all schools and all instructors.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> That's not so easy to agree with... China (not Hong Kong) was a part of the British Empire? When? The British Expansion was also more economical than pure military might... but that's a different conversation. Additionally, you're conflating "martial artists" with "military forces"... and neither are the same as the other.



Europe had spheres of influence throughout China by the end of the 19th century. In addition, European citizens in China enjoyed extraterritorial rights; in other words, they couldn't be subject to Chinese laws if they committed a crime. And yeah, the British did a good job militarily crushing the Chinese in the first and second Opium wars. Modernized Japan did a number on them in the first Sino-Japanese war as well. Speaking of Japan, the near collapse of China at the hand of the Europeans was the main driving force behind them modernizing in under 50 years.



Chris Parker said:


> While the two events happened in the same era (a rather tumultuous one for Japan), the two are not related the way you're insinuating... the abolishment of the samurai (and the entire caste system) came out of the perceived weakness of the Shogunate, in part due to the capitulation to Perry's fleet, but to say that Japan "escaped (being conquered) by... abolishing the samurai class" is rather... wrong.




The Samurai wanted to maintain their status, and there was a contingent of Samurai who rejected the modernization of Japanese society and its military. So yeah, if the Samurai had their way, Japan may not have modernized in time to avoid what happened to the Chinese. Fortunately for Japan, the Samurai were crushed by the modern Japanese military in the 1870s (culiminating in the Satsuma Rebellion in 1877) and swept aside in favor of further modernization.



Chris Parker said:


> Er... "secret societies"? What? I think maybe a few too many comic books there... care to cite some examples?







__





						Wing Chun Kuen and the Secret Societies | eWingChun
					






					www.ewingchun.com
				




Also the White Lotus Society is quite famous for its activities during the Manchu (Qing) Dynasty, as was the Society of the Righteous Harmonious Fist which instigated the Boxer Rebellion.



Chris Parker said:


> They were show attractions in the main... so, yeah, prize fighters and professional wrestlers, in matches set by them, won as part of a public spectacle and attraction...



And it's still the case of western boxers and wrestlers stomping Asian martial art masters....



Chris Parker said:


> Jigoro... not Jigaro... but, more to the point, no, that's not what happened in a few counts... while Kano was influenced by Western teaching methods, due to his time at a European-style boarding school, which helped in the restructuring of his training into what would become Kodokan Judo, the aim was not to "turn it into a sport"... instead, the aim was more to use a structured approach to enable a more direct development than the more esoteric approach of classical arts... *however, there wasn't a lot of "turn(ing) it on the Classical Japanese martial arts community and easily beat(ing) them".*.. instead, the Kodokan was initially set up more to be a one-stop location for a wide variety of martial training forms... among them a variety of jujutsu and weaponry schools. The idea he had was largely to have it be the centre of the newly formed Butokukai, becoming the central location for all Japanese martial arts... his idea was to have a "general" syllabus that would then allow students to continue on to specific studies... which is kinda the way that Iaido would later develop in many cases... it wasn't about "beating" the classical arts, but more about a way for the various systems to operate together... and used the training methods of the burgeoning Kodokan as a basis.



Except that's exactly what happened, and that established Kano and his methodology as something to be taken seriously, and why Judo became the dominant martial art in Japan by the first decade of the 20th century.


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## jmf552 (Sep 24, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well no.  That isn’t how it works.  You are the one making outlandish claims, so the burden of proof is on you.  Explain to me how you know this is true of all schools and all instructors.


Well no. I realize it is futile to try to teach some people anything new and I really don't care that much about the opinion of a faceless person on the internet. My purpose on this thread was a present some relevant information that should be of interest to all martial artists, whether they wind up agreeing with it or not. But some people like to argue with concepts when they haven't even exposed themselves to the information. It's like a film critic panning a movie he hasn't even seen, which happens all the time. People get so caught up in being the burning bush on a topic, they can't take in anything new. 

What I would much rather do is discuss the topic with people who have read those books and see what different opinions people have then.


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## Cynik75 (Sep 24, 2021)

*Ei incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat *


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## Flying Crane (Sep 24, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Well no. I realize it is futile to try to teach some people anything new and I really don't care that much about the opinion of a faceless person on the internet. My purpose on this thread was a present some relevant information that should be of interest to all martial artists, whether they wind up agreeing with it or not. But some people like to argue with concepts when they haven't even exposed themselves to the information. It's like a film critic panning a movie he hasn't even seen, which happens all the time. People get so caught up in being the burning bush on a topic, they can't take in anything new.
> 
> What I would much rather do is discuss the topic with people who have read those books and see what different opinions people have then.


Ok then.  Have fun.


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## Instructor (Sep 28, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I have recently gone on a reading binge of H2H self defense books that are not from a martial arts perspective, but from people who train professionals who are likely to encounter real violence and need to be able to dependably deal with it. Some of the books I've read stand out. I have seen some people here mention Rory Miller and I have long been a fan of his, although his first book, "Meditations on Violence" is a hard read. He even admits his later book, "Facing Violence" is much better and perhaps the best thing he's done. His experience as a career corrections officer has gotten him in a lot of altercations with hardened criminals. I also like Tim Larkin's book, "When Violence is the Answer."
> 
> But the best book I have read so far is Varg Freeborn's "Violence of Mind." Freeborn grew up in a family of violent criminals and at 19, went to prison for stabbing a guy who was trying to kill him. He claims that between his upbringing and prison, he has been in over a hundred fights that had deadly potential. He has shot people and been shot. He has stabbed people and been stabbed. But he turned his life around, got his rights restored by the courts, including being able to own firearms. He threw himself into the study of the martial arts, including H2H and firearms. He now teaches security personnel and police, tactics to deal with violence.
> 
> What Freeborn saw a need for in martial training is mental orientation towards violence. He said he learned great techniques, but the mental aspects were either not taught, glossed over or taught wrong. He felt many, although certainly not all, instructors have not dealt with with violence and have a lot of wrong ideas about it. What he learned on the mean streets and prison was that handling violence is 80% mental and your worst threat is most often someone who has no formal training at all, but who knows violence very well. The mental aspect is way more complicated than I imagined.  The fact that you and I are not hardened criminals puts us at a disadvantage, but there are ways to bridge the gap. You won't come away from reading his book with that all solved, but you will be able to assess where you are at in relation to violence and you will know what you have to do.


I've been reading Violence of Mind, thank you for suggesting this book.  It's very interesting and provokes thought.


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