# Creatine, to take or not to take



## Bob Hubbard (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *everyone's body reacts differently to different things.
> 
> ...




Definately avoid the ephedra...  I'm known folks who had mood swings, it made me hyper and -very- irritable when I took it.  I've beed seeing a growing number of issues with it.

Always do -SERIOUS- research on anything you are going to take.  Dont just take your buddys or even your doctors word on it.  Do research.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 21, 2002)

Hit the library and work thru a couple years worth of "Mens Fitness" magazine.  Lot of good info in there an suppliments.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 14, 2003)

*SNIP!   Sections Cut*

All that said about Mr Giles objectivity aside, if you can overlook the marketing hype inside his articles, he does in fact provide a very large amount of information.

Creatine - http://econtent.musclemagazine.com/powerclub/index3.php?topic=Creatine
Fat Burners - http://www.musclemagazine.com/fsindex.php?topic=FatBurners
Glutamine - http://econtent.musclemagazine.com/powerclub/index3.php?topic=Glutamine
Carbohydrates - http://econtent.musclemagazine.com/powerclub/index3.php?topic=Carbohydrates

He has also writen several other articles for Muscle Magazine, available thru the above links and Planet Muscle (http://www.planetmuscle.com). An article on Weight Training is at http://www.hwarang.org/Weights.html


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Creatine is pretty safe, just three amino acids.  There are no studies saying that creatine causes liver or kidney damage, it just does the opposite in saying it's good for your health...
> 
> I don't take it as a supplement, but if you do, don't take it in a pill form.  Powder is best, and look for high-quality creatine, not the cheap stuff.  When you use creatine, YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO CYCLE.  The negative effects of creatine, from stomach problems to excessive gas, are from using it improperly.  Well, creatine causes gas anyway, but it can be reduced greatly.
> ...



First, I quoted this post, it is not a personal attack on MartialArtist , and I will make comments about other posts here as well.

How can this be safe, for when I had a blood test run and the doctor came and asked me if I was taking some form of Creatine. I replied no. He was visible upset. The level on the test was just over the normal limit found in a male working out a lot. I do not work out a lot. He ran the test again and I was just under the limit the next time. He told me that if I was to take any form of Creatine I was risking my overall health and the health of my kidneys. I know no one has done a study or one that is published.

As for the quote above about it being three simple amino acids, the two sugars that make up Nutrasweet (* registered trade mark *), AKA Equal or Aspartame are found naturally in milk and in a Banana. Yet if you combine these two compounds you get NutraSweet. Now before you go and get all upset, I did the research years ago. It is currently banned in New Mexico, so e-mail me and I can give you the complete story there. But, the point is two things put that are safe separate are not always safe together.

*
THERFORE Judo-Kid no matter how much we have disagreed before, I recommend you do not take this chemical in any form. Yet I also recommend you do your own research and find out for yourself. Including talking to your doctor. *

More to come . . .


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *Don't just talk to a doctor talk to a doctor in sports medicine or a sports nutritionist or a doctor for a pro sports team or division1 college team. Please don't ask a normal; doctor who says you get everything you need from a diet. Also creatine is naturally occuring in red meat by taking extra you are just saturating your muscles in it. Don't eat red meat it might be bad for you and cause kidney failure. hehehe *




Cassidy,

Please read your post to Nightingale about knowing what you are talking about and not looking like a fool. Also be open minded enough to realize that there might be an opinion that is different from yours and that oh my GOSH! it might be right. Oh yeah cheap Laugh HEHEHEHEHE so as not to be insulting. PS Cassidy Spell Check your posts. It makes you read more respectable.

Red meat may have it I do not know. I am willing to take Cassidy's word on this. Yet, do you know how red meat is cured or aged???? That white stuff you see hanging on sides of meat in meat houses is MOLD. And since Penicillin comes from Mold if you eat raw meat you can cure a virus. (* Seeing being funny could be misleading to the uneducated *)

Sorry for that Rant, Cassidy may have something to offer and he may have some life experience to share here. Yet I am finding his attitude a little hard to take.

Who am I, to make this post. No One. Just trying to post here also on a debate. Just because we may differ does not mean you have to be insulting or arrogant. Continue with your regimen, maybe in ten years you can come back and tell me how your kidneys and or testicles or your general health is. My experience from those who used Steroids and other supplemnets is that they now have some issue with their bodies they did not believe possible when they were taking the drugs. Not many are willing to come forward and look like a fool for disagreeing with what they said before.

For your sake Cassidy, I do hope it is 100% safe and you and everyone else will be just fine using it. Just be aware of what is out there. And just because it is FDA approved does not mean it is safe. E-mail me or PM me and I can tell anyone more.

Just my Opinions. Everyone else is entitled to their own. Just do not belittle those that disagree with you. 

PS: NOTE TO self, Please read your own post and try to live and post by it.


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## Roland (Aug 21, 2002)

to use for three months then stay off for one month.
Your body's creatine levels should be pretty full by that time, so any more than 3 months is pretty useless. 
Plus, it gives your system a rest, less of a chance of it causing upset stomach while your body filters out any residue.


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## Kalicombat (Jan 11, 2003)

It has been my experience over the last twenty five years of lifting that just hitting the big three, squat, bench, and deadlift, with a few accessory excercises will benefit anyone the most. Competitive bodybuiling is different in that they have to work all their muscles. However for overall strength, the one excercise that is a must is Squats. Squats have more of an adrogenic effect on the human body then any amount of creatine, glutamine, etc. A high quality  whey protein and a multivitamin are your best bet for any and all supplementation. Eat well, SLEEP enough and periodize your workouts.  Also, stretching and deep tissue massage will help with muscle recovery. Too many people pick up a bodybuilding magazine and get the impression that they can look like the pro bodybuilders on the pages. You cant with out anabolic steroids, seriously good genetics, and lots and lots of dedication. 

Gary Catherman


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bagatha _
> *Creatine Kicks serious butt. I was VERY reluctant at first to even experiment with it until I did some research. Its in your body right now, and its in every meat product you eat, especially beef. I personally have noticed EXTREME results in terms of performance AND recovery. Some will say that it should not help performance by nature, but I have read several articles here on the net regarding experimentation with creatine and football players that proves otherwise. It is a tricky suppliment though, you have to time everything perfectly otherwise it just goes to waste.  *



I used Cell-Tech for quite a while in preperation of my last test. Cell-tech is absolutely awesome. There's a regular creatine your body produces. As you age you produce less and less. Anyway as long as you drink the appropriate amount of water with it you'll makes leaps and bounds in weight lifting. The recovery is just phenominal as well. I pounded out some serious weight during a work out and in the morning I woke up not even being sore. The rule of thumb was drink half of your body weight in ounces everyday. Drink your Nitro-Tech and your Cell-tech and you'll make serious gains.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *Cell tech and nitro-tech are way,way, overpriced all that nitro tech is is whey protein and arginine, Cell tech is sugar ALA and creatine there are better products or products that are just as good for a lot less money. Go to musclemag.com or bodybuilding .com Good lord please quit waisting money on muscle tech garbage. *



Yeah I know what you mean. I actually was buying them off of the internet on some discount wholesalers. They seemed to be around 20 or so dollars less a conainer. After most of the research I did there really wasn't anything that stood out as close. Maybe I didn't look hard enough but I did purchase at a lesser price otherwise I'd really be in the poor house.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 14, 2003)

I have to agree. Personally I've used two other types of creatine monohydrate and didn't get the performance that I did from cell-tech. The grape and fruit punch tasted the best so I stuck with it.


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## Bagatha (Aug 24, 2002)

The pill form of creatine is not very effective anyway (from what I have heard, never tried it myself). I have had nothing but positive results from creatine monohydrate in powder form. I can say from experience that the serum stuff S-U-C-K-S. But yeah, you have to cycle it every 3 or 4 months, go off it for at least a mo. If you dont cycle it your body becomes dependant on an external source and slows its own natural production, which means your not getting any benefit but still forking out big bucks for something that is there for free......

500 g???? please tell me this is a typo! 5g is normal, 10g is AMPLE...... any more is considered "loading", I have never heard of anyone taking over 30g/day, and Im talking about 200+ pound bodybuilders.


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## Bagatha (Jan 11, 2003)

Creatine Kicks serious butt. I was VERY reluctant at first to even experiment with it until I did some research. Its in your body right now, and its in every meat product you eat, especially beef. I personally have noticed EXTREME results in terms of performance AND recovery. Some will say that it should not help performance by nature, but I have read several articles here on the net regarding experimentation with creatine and football players that proves otherwise. It is a tricky suppliment though, you have to time everything perfectly otherwise it just goes to waste. 

Ephedrine is a banned substance in most international events as is other forms of caffiene and even some asthma inhalers. Which is reason enough not to take it if you compete. Creatine as far as I know, is ok.


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## Bagatha (Jan 13, 2003)

Some people dont think its very good. Interesting comments:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20754&highlight=cell+tech

I have never tried it so I hold no opinion.


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## Nightingale (Aug 21, 2002)

everyone's body reacts differently to different things.

I'd say, if creatine gave you stomach problems in the past, your body was trying to tell you something. Listen to it, and achieve your goals through hard work, proper diet, and exercise instead.

and pleasepleaseplease, don't take anything with ephedra or ma jong.  they can kill you.


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## Nightingale (Aug 24, 2002)

um... I was hoping that he meant 500mg as well.


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## Nightingale (Jan 14, 2003)

well, there are studies on both sides for creatine.  my doctor says it is probably fairly safe if used properly under a doctor's supervision and in the proper dosages.  She said that the directions printed on the containers usually are incorrect, so check with a doctor about proper dosage because you have to take your body weight and stuff into account.  

However, I have not seen any reputable studies that say ephedra/ephedrine is safe...even though I repeatedly asked Cassidy for some.  He said he was going to find them, but never returned with any information. (reputable studies are those done by a researcher that is affilliated with a legitimate medical hospital or organization, who has nothing to gain from the research other than scientific knowledge...this means that they are not selling it, or being paid for their statements by the companies that make the drugs) 

Cassidy, if you've found the info, I would really like to be able to look it over.

-N-


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## lvwhitebir (Aug 21, 2002)

I think creatine is all hype.  I would avoid drugs of all kinds and just eat and train right.  The benefits of drugs is short term with the potential harm being long term.

   WhiteBirch


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## KennethKu (Aug 25, 2002)

Bagatha is correct.

Even 50 gram of creatine will get you sitting in the restroom for the most part of the day.


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## KennethKu (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> Bottom line weather or not supplements are healthy I will argue with anyone anytime that most of them are.  There are excetions and there are always rip offs (I am telling you Cell-Tech is the best creatine on the market that I have tried.  Anyway If you want to be at the highestlevels ofa sport you need suplimentation.



There is nothing magical about Cell-Tech. The key ingredients are : 10 g Creatine Monohydrate and 
75 g (Carbohydrates from Dextrose)

You are just over paying for the dextrose, which is glucose.

You can just get cheap creatine and dextrose and just mix them in the same amount.  The dextrose/glucose increase the absorption of creatine.  Simple as that.

Lots of people are already going the cheaper route.


If you want research references:

_Creatine-dextrose and protein-dextrose induce similar strength gains during training   _

MARK A. TARNOPOLSKY; GIANNI PARISE; NICHOLAS J. YARDLEY; CRAIG S. BALLANTYNE; SONNY OLATUNJI; STUART M. PHILLIPS

Departments of Medicine (Neurology and Neurological Rehabilitation) and Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA

MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IN SPORTS AND EXERCISE 2001;33:2044-2052


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## J-kid (Aug 21, 2002)

Hi i used to take creatine about 4 months ago but stoped because the pill form was causing stomach problems.  I have been training harder then ever to become a UFC fighter this means my muscles are swore from working out.  I just 500g of Creatine MOnohydrate to get stronger but not sure if i should take it.  Thinking of my stomach and prehaps the long term problems that no one will know about intil ten years from now. My doctor said its ok to take it but, Is there any risks and what do you think made my stomach all messed up when i was taking it,


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## J-kid (Aug 21, 2002)

Not sure if i wanna take it at all, afraid that i will get weaker in the long run from taking it.:hammer:


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## MartialArtist (Aug 29, 2002)

Creatine is pretty safe, just three amino acids.  There are no studies saying that creatine causes liver or kidney damage, it just does the opposite in saying it's good for your health...

I don't take it as a supplement, but if you do, don't take it in a pill form.  Powder is best, and look for high-quality creatine, not the cheap stuff.  When you use creatine, YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO CYCLE.  The negative effects of creatine, from stomach problems to excessive gas, are from using it improperly.  Well, creatine causes gas anyway, but it can be reduced greatly.

Go to bodybuilding.com and check out its forums.  They talk a great deal on supplements.  Of course, they are bias as a lot of them promote the use of steroids and such, but they have a lot of studies to back up a lot of their claims.


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## sammy3170 (Dec 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Hi i used to take creatine about 4 months ago but stoped because the pill form was causing stomach problems.  I have been training harder then ever to become a UFC fighter this means my muscles are swore from working out.  I just 500g of Creatine MOnohydrate to get stronger but not sure if i should take it.  Thinking of my stomach and prehaps the long term problems that no one will know about intil ten years from now. My doctor said its ok to take it but, Is there any risks and what do you think made my stomach all messed up when i was taking it, *



If taken correctly you can get massive gains from creatine.  Having said that I know a few guys who are monsters and cut who eat the right foods balancing them right and have amazing results.  You just need commitment.

Cheers
Sammy


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## JDenz (Jan 12, 2003)

Judo to get back on topic if you want to be in UFC your are going to have to pound more then  just creatine.  If you are around two hundred pounds you need about 5-10 grams a day not 500.  If you are taking 500 grams a day you woud be poor in the bathroom sick all day. lol.  The loading crap is garbage.  In all the time that we have been supplementing wih creatine mainstream (late 90's) there hasn't been one study where the benifits of creatine over a 6 month period are diffrent from loading to not loading.   So don't worry about loading just do maintaince.  Also the premixed creatine and carbs have wrked the best for me.  I have traid just about every brand and I found the best two to be the EAS brand and Cell-Tech.  
      If you are going to fight in UFC you need to be on a lot of supplements and train for a long time.  Sometime along the road you are probabley going to need to hit the juice.    Not only that you are going to need to hook up with one of the big name teams or have huge succes at a combt sport. (olympics for, Judo,wrestling)  Champion in boxing, kickboxing, MT.  Well you get the picture.
        for me  Ephedrine rocks.  I have had some of my best workouts, and best cuts while on it.  The only side effects that I had was it made me jittery.
  Well that is my 2 cents


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## JDenz (Jan 13, 2003)

Bottom line weather or not supplements are healthy I will argue with anyone anytime that most of them are.  There are excetions and there are always rip offs (I am telling you Cell-Tech is the best creatine on the market that I have tried.  Anyway If you want to be at the highestlevels ofa sport you need suplimentation.


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## JDenz (Jan 14, 2003)

I know whats in it i have made the mixture myself and there are off brands with the same ingrediants but nothing else gives me the same results.


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## JDenz (Jan 14, 2003)

I defintly second that.  In fact I would be surprised if you found a state champ in wrestling or high level highschool kid in any of the major sports on supplements.
     This argument of what is good for you and what isn't good for you is never going to be won because there are creditabl sources on each side saying two diffrent things.   Bottom line scientists and doctors are split on there feelings of the benifit/risk scale.  Anyone that is not arguing to argue can see that.  But whatever side of the fence that you are on you have to admit that supplements do work.


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## cassidy (Jan 13, 2003)

Cell tech and nitro-tech are way,way, overpriced all that nitro tech is is whey protein and arginine, Cell tech is sugar ALA and creatine there are better products or products that are just as good for a lot less money. Go to musclemag.com or bodybuilding .com Good lord please quit waisting money on muscle tech garbage.


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## cassidy (Jan 13, 2003)

Don't just talk to a doctor talk to a doctor in sports medicine or a sports nutritionist or a doctor for a pro sports team or division1 college team. Please don't ask a normal; doctor who says you get everything you need from a diet. Also creatine is naturally occuring in red meat by taking extra you are just saturating your muscles in it. Don't eat red meat it might be bad for you and cause kidney failure. hehehe


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## cassidy (Jan 14, 2003)

To be at the highest level of a sport yes you do. Show me one ufc,nfl ,or MLB player who doesn't supplement let alone use steroids.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 11, 2003)

Funny. While there's been studies showing the benefits from creatine (which has an endogenous, that  means your body produces it naturally) and caffeine with no side effects, from proteins there has only been evidence of completing your nutrition when it's lacking in proteins, but no extra benefits in performing. And an overload in liposoluble vitamins may cause some illnesses.

The better thing is to ask a doctor.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 12, 2003)

Caffeine is also allow in low doses, like say and or two expresso or half liter CocaCola.

And yes, creatine phospate (sp?) is one of the first fuels the muscle use. Complementing with creatine is said to benefit anaerobial exercises and recovery the best. 

Anybody with doubts try doing some research in *serious* medical journals, like the _New England Journal of Medicine_ 

But unless you're a pro, you'll benefit more from training, training and more training, proper diet and enough quality sleep, like Kalicombat said.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bagatha _
> *Creatine Kicks serious butt. I was VERY reluctant at first to even experiment with it until I did some research. Its in your body right now, and its in every meat product you eat, especially beef. I personally have noticed EXTREME results in terms of performance AND recovery. Some will say that it should not help performance by nature, but I have read several articles here on the net regarding experimentation with creatine and football players that proves otherwise. It is a tricky suppliment though, you have to time everything perfectly otherwise it just goes to waste.
> 
> Ephedrine is a banned substance in most international events as is other forms of caffiene and even some asthma inhalers. Which is reason enough not to take it if you compete. Creatine as far as I know, is ok. *




Yes, yes, yes. You are soooo right.

Regarding proteins, I have just remembered that if you overload on a regular basis you can get uric acid in you blood, which in the past was an ilness of rich people.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Anyway If you want to be at the highestlevels ofa sport you need suplimentation. *



Work hard, work hard, and work harder still. And then, have a genetics that helps in that sport. Supplimentation is not a must.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 15, 2003)

Administrator Note: 

This series of posts has been culled from the more heated debate on suppliments and ephedra.

Please LIMIT this thread to the topic of *Creatine*

Thank you.


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## Sanddragon (Jan 15, 2003)

Since Kaith seperated it all again. I felt that all the info being dug up was interesting and helpful but now can we do some of that for or against Creatine.

I think JK had a good question here and I have read and heard both positive and negative on Creatine and would like to know if we have any good info on its benifits. Thanks.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 15, 2003)

http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/  has a FAQ that appears to be unbiased.
http://www.absolute-creatine.com/
http://www.creatinefacts.com/
http://health.yahoo.com/health/alternative_medicine/herbal_remedies_tree/herbal_remedies/creatine/

Ray Sahelian, MD  (note: developer)
Creatine Guidelines-- updated Jan 2003
http://www.raysahelian.com/creatine.html
"CREATINE and TEENAGERS
At this point I do not recommend anyone younger than 18 to use creatine except under medical supervision. If your personal physician and parents approve your use of creatine, it should only be taken for a brief period of time, such us a couple of months for a particular sports season, and then you should be off it the rest of the year. Daily dosage is best kept to 3 gm, with two days off per week. " 
Please check this article out as it appears to come off -very- unbiased and fair, IMHO.  Gives both the pros and cons.

Terry Giles (note: developer)
Creatine - http://econtent.musclemagazine.com/powerclub/index3.php?topic=Creatine
"Creatine is found in a variety of foods in various concentrations - the "richest" source of Creatine is lean red meat. 2.2 lbs. of steak contain approximately 5 grams of Creatine. Vegetarians have been shown to have lower Creatine storages than meat eaters. But just storing, let alone cooking meat, diminishes its Creatine levels. "
Has a lot of information on how it works, and the types.


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## Sanddragon (Jan 16, 2003)

Kaith,
Thank you sir.  :asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 18, 2003)

Doctor Sahelian information seems quite in line with what I have been taught at uni and read elsewhere since.

And as he said, 





> At this point I do not recommend anyone younger than 18 to use creatine except under medical supervision.


 I will apply this counsel to anyone wanting to use it, though.


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