# purpose of drills



## guy b (Sep 22, 2016)

What is the purpose of the drills you use in VT? Which drills do you use, in which order, and why?


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## Nobody Important (Sep 22, 2016)

I never attended Virginia Tech, maybe others here have. I'm assuming they use cordless, corded, impact and presses. Which ones used would depend on what material was being drilled, wood, metal, concrete, plastic etc. This would also determine the bit used. I assume order would be dependant on precision required


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## guy b (Sep 22, 2016)

Bravo, now go ahead and answer the question


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## Nobody Important (Sep 22, 2016)

guy b said:


> Bravo, now go ahead and answer the question


Lighten up, just razzing you a bit. As far as answering the question, no thanks, go phishing with someone else. Have a good day.


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## guy b (Sep 22, 2016)

Nobody Important said:


> Lighten up, just razzing you a bit





			
				Nobody Important said:
			
		

> I do not care to argue moot points with a ethnocentric narcissist with a closed minded view of anything that contradicts his beliefs.This conversation is over



Had a change of heart?


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## guy b (Sep 22, 2016)

Lightened up yet?


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## guy b (Sep 22, 2016)

Just razzing you a bit


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## Nobody Important (Sep 22, 2016)

Troll much?

Drills are used to make holes in things. You could have found that out with a google search.


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## Danny T (Sep 22, 2016)

Some drills are to develop attributes; speed, strength, structure, sensitivity…etc.
Some drills are to develop a particular response to a stimulus. When or how to go to a tan sao or a bong sao or a jut sao or a jum sao.
Some drills are to develop a particular skill set. Punching, kicking, elbow position, stepping, body position…etc.
Some drills are to develop an understanding of range or distance.
Some drills are to develop an understanding of timing.
There are other reasons to use drills.


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## anerlich (Sep 23, 2016)

Speaking for myself, to develop "muscle memory".

Don't be obtuse, you know what that is.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2016)

Drill is also a military term for the training of marching, shooting and other military skills. It's been used for millennia and for the same reason it's used in martial arts. Most styles use drills from BJJ to karate to judo and of course CMA as is trying to be discussed here. It's always interesting to know how others train basics as well as advanced skills, we can all learn from each other even if we don't train the same style. That's the reason I like looking here despite not training CMA, there's always the chance to learn something that I can put into practice.


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## guy b (Sep 24, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Speaking for myself, to develop "muscle memory".
> 
> Don't be obtuse, you know what that is.



I'm not being obtuse. What I am looking for is a description of the structure of systems 

If muscle memory is the primary driver for doing drills in your system, would you say that they are generally application related (i.e. you want your body to respond with a drilled sequence of movements in response to stimulus)? Or do you mean it in a different way?


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## Juany118 (Sep 24, 2016)

guy b said:


> I'm not being obtuse. What I am looking for is a description of the structure of systems
> 
> If muscle memory is the primary driver for doing drills in your system, would you say that they are generally application related (i.e. you want your body to respond with a drilled sequence of movements in response to stimulus)? Or do you mean it in a different way?


No you are being obtuse.  You typically do this waiting/hoping that someone describes something in a manner that provides you with an "ah ha gotcha" moment, even if the difference between your thoughts and what the other expressed was purely semantic in nature.

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## guy b (Sep 24, 2016)

There is no reason for you to worry about disagreement if your system is coherent and functional


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## Juany118 (Sep 24, 2016)

guy b said:


> There is no reason for you to worry about disagreement if your system is coherent and functional


Such a sentiment only has validity if the following hold true.
1. Both sides of the conversation look at substantive facts and don't use semantics.
2. Both sides agree that more than one system is coherent and functional.

You do neither.  The second one is most important.  Like many people with an apparently narrow experience you suffer from myopia and when confronted by something different than your own experience you can't see the coherence or functionality.  It is like language, English has a multitude of accents, some stronger than others (think some of the Scottish accents).  To the myopic who doesn't try to understand someone from Aberdeen or Glasgow can sound like they are speaking some incoherent foreign tongue, but if one isn't myopic you can see they are speaking the same language, they simply pronounce it differently.

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## guy b (Sep 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Such a sentiment only has validity if the following hold true.
> 1. Both sides of the conversation look at substantive facts and don't use semantics.



I only use facts and logic in argument. That is why you dislike it I guess



> 2. Both sides agree that more than one system is coherent and functional.



I do, see here



> You do neither.  The second one is most important.



Please don't lie


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## Phobius (Sep 24, 2016)

guy b said:


> I only use facts and logic in argument. That is why you dislike it I guess



Opinion is not facts and logic is in the eye of the beholder. Most of your arguments are void of logic and filled with opinion. You are free to disagree in a fact and logic based argument if you wish.



guy b said:


> I do, see here



You seem to misunderstand, the statement was about other lineages being just as coherent and functional. Your claim that there is only one WC is flawed in terms of both probability and logic because humans are not identical and if you have ever fought someone you will notice we all have our different personalities and traits that give us different advantages.

Saying all other lineages are incoherent is not a statement that is supported by fact or logic. It is a simple opinion by a single person with no known experience to back up his own statement. As such what you are doing is simply seeking aggregation or attention, my opinion.

The irony is that by stating you have never heard of any WC/VT that is coherent or functional you sound like someone who recently just started training because if you still believe the coherence and or functionality of a lineage/system can be understood via written words on a forum then one would say it is most probable all your arguments are based on flawed opinion because statistics show that people have a higher tendency to misunderstand meaning and purpose in forums than in person.



guy b said:


> Please don't lie



He did not lie, he stated an opinion. One that is supported by many people here. As such your mathematical probability states it is more likely he is telling the truth.


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## guy b (Sep 24, 2016)

Phobius said:


> You seem to misunderstand, the statement was about other lineages being just as coherent and functional.



Not true. The statement by Juany was that "both sides must agree that more than one system is coherent and functional"

In a post before this challenge, linked to above, I stated the following:



			
				guy b said:
			
		

> There is nothing in what I have said that denies other functional, non-contradictory and internally consistent systems also exist that are not VT. BJJ is an obvious example. There are also examples in Chinese MA. There are recently formulated examples and examples from a long time ago.



and



			
				guy b said:
			
		

> I have never denied that non-broken VT may exist that I am not aware of, from either before or after the time of YM. All of you (apart from KPM) may in fact be practicing such VT



So your reading comprehension is worryingly poor, if you did indeed click the link



> He did not lie



Yes he did lie as detailed above. At best he was very careless and should acknowledge his mistake. As should you.


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## guy b (Sep 24, 2016)

Lying is a very weak approach to argument


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## Juany118 (Sep 24, 2016)

guy b said:


> Not true. The statement by Juany was that "both sides must agree that more than one system is coherent and functional"
> 
> In a post before this challenge, linked to above, I stated the following:
> 
> ...



Well the above is basically self serving because while you may claim "I have never said any non-VT...." Everytime that something you consider a  non-VT form, hell when VT forms that don't match yours are raised... You attack them.

Beyond that I will not repeat what has been said regarding the difference once between opinion and logic.  If you care to be a lone voice in the wilderness it is all good but realize that at least on this forum your voice is either screaming into the hurricane or simply blatantly ignored by basically everyone else because it is devoid of logic.

The thing with logic is that it is not subjective.  You seem to mistake your opinion for objective facts.  Thus you mistake subjective opinion for logic.


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## anerlich (Sep 25, 2016)

guy b said:


> I'm not being obtuse. What I am looking for is a description of the structure of systems
> 
> If muscle memory is the primary driver for doing drills in your system, would you say that they are generally application related (i.e. you want your body to respond with a drilled sequence of movements in response to stimulus)? Or do you mean it in a different way?



Being obtuse wasn't directed at you specifically. Though one might wonder why everyone else jumped on you about it. 

It is about responses to stimuli, but it's also about "chunking" a useful series of individual moves into a unit so you have to think about only the unit and not the individual moves that make it up.


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## geezer (Sep 25, 2016)

anerlich said:


> ...It is about responses to stimuli, but it's also about *"chunking"* a useful series of individual moves into a unit so you have to think about only the unit and not the individual moves that make it up.



I wasn't familiar with the term _chunking,_ but it's a very useful concept. Think of how we process language or read text for example. We don't process or produce speech mastering individual phonemes, or even complete words, but typically in whole _phrases_ which we link together. When I learned Spanish in school, I was taught vocabulary and grammar, but I wasn't able to actually converse in that language until I travelled and interacted with native speakers. I found myself constantly hearing and repeating common phrases. Before long comprehensible (coherent and functional) language was emerging from my mouth.  Although I've forgotten most of what I learned through disuse over the last 20 years or so, I can vouch for the efficacy of drilling speech thorough what you call _chunking_.

SNT has been compared to learning an alphabet. And I agree that it is _not _(as a certain individual keeps repeating) learning application. But if our basic forms teach us the phonemes, vocabulary and grammar of VT, how will we ever learn to converse (chi-sau), debate (spar), and even argue (fight)_ fluently _if we don't learn those useful phrases (chunking)? That much is essential for _coherent and functional _VT to emerge ...regardless of lineage.


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## wckf92 (Sep 26, 2016)

geezer said:


> I wasn't familiar with the term _chunking,_ but it's a very useful concept. Think of how we process language or read text for example. We don't process or produce speech mastering individual phonemes, or even complete words, but typically in whole _phrases_ which we link together. When I learned Spanish in school, I was taught vocabulary and grammar, but I wasn't able to actually converse in that language until I travelled and interacted with native speakers. I found myself constantly hearing and repeating common phrases. Before long comprehensible (coherent and functional) language was emerging from my mouth.  Although I've forgotten most of what I learned through disuse over the last 20 years or so, I can vouch for the efficacy of drilling speech thorough what you call _chunking_.
> 
> SNT has been compared to learning an alphabet. And I agree that it is _not _(as a certain individual keeps repeating) learning application. But if our basic forms teach us the phonemes, vocabulary and grammar of VT, how will we ever learn to converse (chi-sau), debate (spar), and even argue (fight)_ fluently _if we don't learn those useful phrases (chunking)? That much is essential for _coherent and functional _VT to emerge ...regardless of lineage.



Yep...there is "chunking" and "chaining". Useful ways to teach a complex task, especially tasks which may include aspects of both fine and gross motor skills. 

I view ALL the forms as letters. The drills teach merely a few examples of small words, grammar, syntax etc. After that, it's up to the practitioner.....  

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