# What is your view?



## Don Rearic

I clicked onto this Forum the other day and was wondering why there was not a fair amount of activity. I figured I would start a thread and see what people have to say. Perhaps sparking some interesting conversation.

I am doing this in the spirit of this post, found in another thread in this Forum:



> *"Very simply, how to use a knife with martial principals. From Balisong to Marine Corp."*



~Kaith Rustaz

We all know that we really don't want to tangle in the alley with someone who has a piece of sharp steel in their hand and evil on their mind, however...

What are your views on this? I think it is safe to say that regardless of skill in any empty hand Art, it's not really a situation you want to be in. Knives and Guns tend to trump the best laid battle plans when the battle plan does not include a weapon.

So, do you study or carry edged weapons for modern Self-defense? What is the deal? [Conversation!]


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## Bob Hubbard

I usually carry a Geek-Blade.  (tactical folder, with the case made from old motherboards)  

Mostly for utility...in an actual knife fight at this point in my training, I'd be at a disadvantage.

Study yes, hope to never have to need training.


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## Don Rearic

Yeah, Utility is a must. Some people want us to tear apart meat with our hands now. It's good to see people using knives in that role as well. Keeps up an extra-legal, legitimate air about them. They really are a must to me. I hate tearing things apart and whatnot. We have brains, we're supposed to use _tools._

And the computer board thingy-slabs on a knife, hey, they're good "Geek-O-Flage," don't sweat that. If anything it makes it even more legitimate in the eyes of people that think we should be tearing things apart with our hands now. Going back to Neanderthal Times...

And yeah, it's not something you want to be involved in really, re: knife fight/altercation with a knife. 

Do you have any focus on that aspect though?


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## Bob Hubbard

So far, my knife trainings been some simple disarms. It gets more complicated as things go, as I'm still working on that elusive yellow belt.  

We've done some sparing with the idea of knife vs knife  and  knife vs empty hand, among other things.


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## arnisador

I was going to post here the other night asking for advice on choosing a folder (I was interrupted). I occasionally carry one for self-defense as I feel confident in its use, but I don't know much about choosing a folder. The knife magazines have more information than I can use and I honestly don't see the differences in many cases.

I have two folders now, plus a couple of balisongs. I usually carry my small folder that I can open in one smooth motion with one-hand, but I also have a larger and sturdier tanto-style folder (but not as big as a true tanto of course) that I would prefer save for the fact that I need two one-handed motions or one two-handed motion to open it. I generally carry a knife when walking alone in the woods or possibly walking alone at night (if this cannot be avoided), so I carry it in my right front pants or jacket pocket and want something I can grab and smoothly open. I anticipate that the intimidation factor would suffice and I would not need to use it--that would ordinarily be my plan, not to hide it behind my leg and stab an unarmed opponent. I'm not ready to consider wearing a special sheath for the knife. Both folders I have open via a protusion on the blade that is worked by the thumb; the smaller one has a curved, grooved protusion and the larger one has a flat one. I have seen folders with a circular hole that the thumb rests in to open the blade but again don't know much about the trade-offs here.

In summary I'd like a bigger and sturdier folding blade but the big one is so big I can't open it completely in a single motion. Any suggestions?


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *What are your views on this? I think it is safe to say that regardless of skill in any empty hand Art, it's not really a situation you want to be in. Knives and Guns tend to trump the best laid battle plans when the battle plan does not include a weapon.*



Let me put in a rather long excerpt from "The Fairbairn Manual of Knife Fighting" at http://www.selbstverteidigung.org/images/cobra.html as part of this discussion. The material in red was added by the editor of the text, William L. Cassidy. To find this material search for the term "unarmed" in the page; the internal links are broken. Summarizing, the author says categorically: *IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE".*

From *The Fairbairn Manual of Knife Fighting*:

*DIS-ARMING A KNIFE FIGHTING OPPONENT??*

We are frequently being told of Judo Experts who claim that they can dis-arm a man attacking them with a knife without the aid of any weapon - in other words - with their bare hands. Also we have a copy of a Military Training Bulletin, in which the author lays down how the recruit should be instructed to do the same thing.

It is apparent that neither the Judo Expert nor the writer of the Bulletin have ever seen an expert knife fighter in action or even at practice, otherwise, they would know that had they attempted to dis-arm him, they would, in a matter of a split second, be minus a few fingers or an ear - that is, if they were so fortunate as to be still alive.

We have no objection to the Judo Expert making this statement or to him continuing to teach his STAGE DIS-ARM but we get "very hot under the collar" when those responsible for the training of our young men for Combat duty,
publish Training Manuals in which they state and show photographs of a man being dis-armed by an Instructor with his bare hands.

NOTE - The Author again wishes to go on record - IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE".

Scientific studies have shown that the recorded speed of a forward snap-type strike originating from waist-level is 5.7 to 9.8 meters per second, or approximately 19 to 32 feet per second. The hand reaches maximum speed shortly before the arm is fully extended, and travels faster on the return stroke than on the forward stroke. 

Based on the above, it can be estimated that it takes one-sixth of a second or less to execute a snap-type knife
strike. This assumes an average speed of 32 feet per second and a total distance of 62 inches.

Stress reaction time to any stimulus is approximately one-fifth of a second.

It is for the above reasons, among others, that we state there is no means by which an unarmed man can defend against a knife fighter.

Still, it must be acknowledged that there may come unfortunate circumstances in which one has no other choice but to make an attempt. In such unpleasant cases, usually played out at the end of an alley or in confinementy, the following guidelines may be of some small value if there is no place to run and no place to hide:

1. Obtain the advantage of distance. Stay as far away from the blade as circumstances permit.

2. Move contnually. Stay in motion, especially with multiple attackers. Move at least three feet in each second.

3. Concentrate on the knife. Do not be fooled by watching the attacker's eyes, hands, or any other part of his or her body. Pay attention to the knife.

4. Pay attention to timing. Semi-skilled and crude attackers manipulate knives according to an individual rhythm, usually of a very rapid nature. Be aware of this.

5. Do not close with your attacker. If you have no means of escape, allow him to close with you.

6. Evade the weapon before you counterattack. First get out of the way of the blade. If you must absorb cuts, try to avoid absorbing them with your arms and hands by using your feet. Note - this is "last ditch" advice!

7. Attack the forearm and the wrist simultaneously. Do not attack the hand. Attempt to immobilize the hand that holds the knife as rapidly as possible, then break the hand, wrist, elbow or arm. Strike the bridge of your attacker's nose with your head.

8. Never go to the ground with an attacker. Try to stay on your feet at all costs.

9. Do not "protect" wounds. If you are attacked by surprise and stabbed, and you cannot run, do not shrink back or "cover" your wounds as this will render your arms and hands vulnerable. At this stage, your arms and hands are your only means of defense. IMMEDIATELY counterattack the attacker's knife arm, or, in the alternative, "climb" your attacker using the remaining power in your legs. Be advised that most wounds result in a weakness in the legs, arising from the body's natural response to loss of blood.

10. Do not wrap a coat around your arm. Do try to find an expedient weapon, such as a belt or a stick.

Note: I have studied this issue for more than twenty-five years and have experienced the attentions of the finest instructors in the world. Please be assured that no martial arts school or technique can offer a predictable method of defense against a knife, and most of the techniques and methods one sees are suicidal against a knife fighter.


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## arnisador

Before I studied arnis, I thought I could use my karate skills to defend against a knife fighter.

Having learned something about knife fighting and having knife-sparred extensively with Mr. Hartman and with another arnis practitioner in California I am much more of the same mind as Col. Fairbairn.

I was stabbed at _once_ in a mugging (three people, one had a knife). This was about a week before I tested for lakan. I did block that _one_ attempt to stab at my stomach. The teenager with the knife was obviously unskilled with the knife and in fact I believe that he himself was a bit intimidated by the knife! It was a straight-in stab, uppercut punch style.

But I would not want to have to defend unarmed against anyone with even a modicum of training or experience in fighting with the knife. I have some ideas if I should ever need to do so, but it's not an odds-on situation.


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## Cthulhu

Here's a good test for knife disarm techniques:

1) Learn said technique
2) Practice, practice, practice
3) Try disarm technique on Dan Inosanto
4) Go to Emergency Room

:boing1: :boing2: :boing1: 

Cthulhu


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## Don Rearic

Arnisador,

You're much more than a _Grasshopper_ in this Game if you are listing Fairbairn as a reference and extracting THAT from his writing(s). So many people do not even know that material is out there and alot that do know it exists will claim it is B.S. because what they do is superior.

By that I mean this, what you quoted is DEAD ON accurate. Fairbairn knew the deal early on.

The material that came out of World War Two British SOE and American OSS is priceless in the way of observation of Combat realities.

*"Tactical" Folders*

On this subject, the first thing you have to decide is, how much do you want to spend? Because you can spend between $50 and $500.00 easily. I know some people will grown about that, but it is your Life and how much is it worth? The difference between a P.O.S. handgun and a Glock presents quite a gap as well. It's the same with knives. I would suggest you look in several ranges.

For example...

Datu Worden designed a knife called the WORTAC, you can read about that on his Site. This can be had in a Custom Form from Custom Knifemaker Pat Crawford for $375.00 to $425.00 for base models. That is a Custom Knife it must be remembered. It is one solid piece of cutlery...

Also, the Production version of that knife produced by Timberline, you can purchase on the Internet, still called the "WORTAC" and every bit as viable for Utility or Self-defense, the same knife, just not a Custom, handmade knife. You can obtain one of them for less than $50.00 believe it or not.

There are MANY different knives out there, as you say. And it is hard to choose when you are not knee-deep in that particular realm.

I'm sporting an Emerson Production Folder and a Semi-Custom [High End Production] Chris Reeve Sebenza at the moment.

The Production version of the WORTAC from Timberline is a STEAL at under $50.00 in most places. Not everyone is going to want to plop down $350.00 for a Chris Reeve Sebenza regardless of the qualities it has.

I can post more on this later.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *The material that came out of World War Two British SOE and American OSS is priceless in the way of observation of Combat realities.
> *



I agree--we must listen to them and to current police and correctional officers. I always look for *real* data and *real* anecdotes from people with *real* experience. I believe that most martail arts were cutting-edge for the times and in the places they were developed--for the types of attacks those people most likely faced. And so I have learned kata designed for fighting in a rice paddy at dusk and techniques for defending against an attack by a smaurai swordsmen while seated in seiza. I enjoy the aesthetic and historical aspects of the arts but I don't confuse them with practical, modern, current self-defense. Sometimes it still works fine, other times it doesn't.



> *
> Also, the Production version of that knife produced by Timberline, you can purchase on the Internet, still called the "WORTAC" and every bit as viable for Utility or Self-defense, the same knife, just not a Custom, handmade knife. You can obtain one of them for less than $50.00 believe it or not.*



I found a few:
http://www.crawfordknives.com/html/wortac.html
http://www.knifepro.com/details.asp?ProdID=2483
http://www.knifepro.com/details.asp?ProdID=2482
http://www.knifepro.com/details.asp?ProdID=2484
http://www.knifepro.com/details.asp?ProdID=2485

Are the latter four the production versions to which you referred? The knives I have now have a straighter handle as opposed to the ones above which are designed for a certain grip. (One of my knives follows this outline but it is much more nearly straight--the curve is less, well, curvy. Alas, I don't even know the terminology for the anatomy of the knife.) I'm not sure I'd find it comfortable though I imagine it improves the control.



> *
> There are MANY different knives out there, as you say. And it is hard to choose when you are not knee-deep in that particular realm.
> *



Yes, I'm frankly overwhelmed by it. I'm also a bit embarrassed that while I consider myself reasonably knowledgeable about knife fighting--as much as a typical Modern Arnis instructor at least--I know so little about fighting knives themselves. I really don't know much about what to look for in a live blade. That's what I need--a reference like "A Primer on Knives for Knife Fighters". I think I'll hold off on the WORTAC until I get can get a _feel_ of that grip or a similar one.


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## Don Rearic

Yes, the bottom link is the Production Model, HA! Well, the grip looks odd until you actually feel it. It feels rather great in forward grip or in forward _saber_ grip, the thumb being "topside" on the frame of the knife. The thumb being in line with the handle/blade. It's also solid in reverse grip.

What that pseudo-pistol grip style of grip, along with the belly in that blade [the edge has a belly to it] is give you good edge and point orientation. It makes you more accurate actually. Some things become knife-specific.

But I would not be intimidated by it all. You can have a good, solid, working knowledge of cutlery like this in a few minutes of reading a day...over a matter of weeks, you will know quite a bit. 

That particular knife is a tad on the heavy side, in order to keep the price down, the liners in the knife that lie under the actual "slabs" that form the handle are steel. In the Custom version they are Titanium. Titanium is roughly one-third the weight of steel. The knife is also thick, just being honest and neutral to review it for you. It is an awesome knife, but those are two things that you might want to consider as well.

But there are many different knives to choose from and that is just one. 

I think if you really want something to work with, I would try out a Spyderco Endura and a matching trainer. Having the _exact_ same knife in your hand, but one that will not cut or pierce is of great benefit if you work deployment drills... Accessing, drawing and opening under a bit of stress. You can work antigrappling drills with a dulled/rounded trainer as well.


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## Don Rearic

Here you go. I cut and pasted two pictures into a collage and trimmed them up with a border for ya. The larger of the two knives is the aforementioned Spyderco Endura. The smaller is a Spyderco Delica. The Endura, for an idea of scale, has a 3.95 or 4.0 inch blade. Forget which exactly! Both have the hole for one handed opening, which is ambidextrous. Both have a reversible pocket clip which make them ambidextrous for carry as well. So, the Delica is in the sub-3.5 inch range. 

The bottom picture that is cut and pasted along with the top are Spyderco Red Handled Trainers that match the top two knives.


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## arnisador

Thanks for this suggestion. I do practice drawing and opening with a live blade because I believe that what we do in practice is what we'll do in an actual situation (albeit more sloppily when under pressure) but I'd rather have a non-sharpened version for most of my practicing alone and all of my practicing with a partner. I think it's a great idea. I did some web-searching and found the knife but not the corresponding trainer--I'll keep looking. I'd be quite willing to pay for a new blade but now will be looking for one that comes with a matching dummy. I thought they only did that on custom knives!

Thanks for pointing out the differences in the custom and production versions. I'm not yet ready to pay several hundred dollars for something I stick in my pocket on occasion and have never had to use, but I think I will try a cheaper version and see how well I like it then see if I can get ahold of someone's custom version at a seminar or camp and see if I can feel the difference. I'm still not sure that I'll like that "pistol-style" grip but I do want to give it a try.


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## Mao

Hey, this forum looks like fun.
  As perhaps has been stated, unarmed knife defense is always a  last resort.  But we still should train for that last resort.  I have used various methods for training both unarmed against a knife and knife v. knife.  Unarmed training against a knife is pretty enlightning for most people. Funny story, I was using sidewalk chalk (snagged some of my daughters) and "knife" sparring in class.  Two of my students were "playing" and one , much larger than the other, tried to enter rather strongly and brutishly and the smaller of the two got his "knife" stuck up the other guys nose!  Everyone rolled. He had chalk all over his nose area and looked like a clown as the chalk was pink. His was white. Well, after it was over both had "cuts"  all over.  Hmmm, and both had a weapon. Needless to say that mt hand v knife is fun too. Evasion/movement is key.


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## Don Rearic

Better to get a little chalked up in training instead of on the concrete outside a local 7-11, I always say.


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## Mao

Well said. So true.


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## IFAJKD

This post has started some great discussion. I want to add that although I teach disarms I don't believe in teaching an empty hand defense against a knife. I have seen the pictures of the multiple stab wounds that a human body can endure but I believe it's the slashing or cutting that renders immediate damage. These tend to end rather quickly. That said I do think that in training knives and understanding how they work gives us a better chance to survive one. (survive means to live in this case) 
Disarming does have another plus, that they tend to actually work best on the ground. So we train them there. Another aspect that we do is ground fight with that blade. Man does this change the game. Even an advanced ground fighter is rendered much like a white belt BJJ when this tool comes into play. The ground does slow things up and this is the factor that more greatly effects the disarm ability. Once disarmed, it is not necessarily gone however so the game continues and often turns into a ground fight to retrieve the blade. Many unpredictable things happen here.
Where I work this and attack by other improvised weapons are a constant and real threat. a recent attack has finally gotten us to a point where the State may fully implement improvised weapons defense aspects in their training of staff and officers.


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## Despairbear

I can not say that I agree, if you are attacked with a knife you are in a really bad position. But to not teach a type of defence aginst a knife is to render your self useless if you ever have to face one. Obviously your best option is to run but that is not always viable, what then? With no training you become prey, you have no options but to be killed. With training with open hand v.s. knife you at least have a chance as small as that might be. I find the thought of a knife being "unbeatable" to lead to a dangerus mind frame where loss and death are inevitable. This will destroy you long before the knife comes into play.




Despair Bear


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## Mao

I would agree with dispairbear. This idea would hold true for self defense in general. Fighting is a last option. As for the knife, certainly fighting with someone who has one is a last option. Even if you both have one it's an ugly place to be.


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## IFAJKD

I had to reread my post. I am not saying that I don't teach empty hand defense as such. I don't teach it as viable. I do teach the techniques but frame it realistically. Bu make no mistake about it ...If you are unarmed and the other has aknife you ARE prey...Another mind set would result in "fools rushing in" Any fight is a game of spatial relationships. It is a giving and takinbg of space. For some it is also a game of sensitivity and that means I give space until I can take it. then doing so, it must be decisively and wehn a threat or defense is met at this point s felt rather than seen. with a blade, your sensitivity has to be 100 times higher. 
So Although I teach empty hand defense and disarms, I don't teach it unrealistically.  In fact a great drill is the knife sensitivity drill done empty hand against a knife


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## Don Rearic

I was in the middle of writing a rather lengthy group of thoughts with regard to what "IFAJKD" wrote because I did not think that he meant what was interpreted by "Despair Bear."

The lovely E-mail notification informed me that IFAJKD has responded and as I thought, he did not mean that. And I have to say, I agree with him 100% on the issue of viability.

Instead of just posting that now, I would just point you to this link, something I wrote on my Website some time ago. Some people might not like it, or me because of it, some might hate it. It's the truth as I see it.

Click here.


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## IFAJKD

Don,
Thanks for the link. I will be rereading this for sometime to come. My initial impression was that it was all well said. I have always admired people who have thought things through and could write about it. Teaching this is complicated stuff and as such we have a grave responsibility to our students. This responsibility includes knowing the parameters and teaching truth as best we can. It no longer serves us or any martial artist to claim that we have the answers to all their fears. This is why I train in the systems I do and with the mentality I train in. There has been enough of internet warriors and perpetuation of myths. Funny how the blade in the hands of someone who is willing to prove it can do to teach. Hard way to learn. I was taught luckily this way in the FMA school I first attended and was too glad to accept the lesson that way. My old way would have gotten me killed to be sure.


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## Don Rearic

IFAJKD,

Thank you for the positive response. 

I think...some people might be so on fire for whatever art they are taking that they lose the ability to be an unbiased observer of what they are involved in.

I tried my level best to state the truth as I see it and...to still show a great degree of respect. There is not one Art in that Article that I mentioned that does not have something to offer. In fact, some of them have an immense amount of truth, effective movement and in general, GOODNESS to them. 

But there are faults and I think that when people start extrapolating things from ancient times...and applying them to Modern Day...there is going to be some friction and there are going to be things that simply do not "fit" where people are trying to force them.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> But there are faults and I think that when people start extrapolating things from ancient times...and applying them to Modern Day...there is going to be some friction and there are going to be things that simply do not "fit" where people are trying to force them. *



Absolutely. There are all sorts of arts out there with techniques for defending against being attacked while in seiza or what have you. In all likelihood they were cutting-edge effective against those attacks at those times. But fighting styles both evolve and simply _change_ and if one is interested in what is effective, rather than the art for its own sake (which is fine--the aesthetics of some arts are well worth a lifetime of study, much like literature or any other fine art), then one cannot expect to be able to take what worked in 18th century Japan (say), in that terrain, with those typical or feared threats, those weapons laws or customs, those styles of dress (try to choke someone out with the collar of their T-shirt!), those punishments for certain crimes (look at savate with its open-hand and foot blows because using a fist was considered an assault with a deadly weapon), etc., and put it into 21st century America and have it work against a 21st century American threat without some changes.

Advances in athletic training methods and changes in physique and health due to better diet must also be factored in. The classical arts contain a great deal of wisdom but as always one must _study_ the arts.

Let me say two things however :soapbox:: First, it is all too common to see the opposite logical fallacy, namely, to assume that because an art is not practical today that it never was. Carried to its extreme this leads to the conclusion that kenjutsu was never a useful art but while one won't see someone say something that clearly fallacious one often sees negative comments about other arts as thought they _never_ were effective. It's all too easy and all too common to believe that if it doesn't work now that the originators of the system were incompetent. I believe that almost all arts were effective in their day if they survived to this one. (Don, I'm not by any means suggesting that *you* believe this type of thing--I hear it in conversations I have with other martial artists who are rightly pleased with their modern, mixed martial arts and it frustrates me.) Respect and thanks are due those who came before us; as Isaac Newton said in a different context, "If I have seen further than others then it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants", and indeed I note the Gracies, for example, give much credit to the "giant" Jigora Kano for his innovations of 120 years ago that were one step in the road to _their_ art.

Second, I am glad that some study the classical arts for their own sake and preserve them without regard to their efficiency because they enjoy the aesthetics of the art and the historicity of their hobby. They are preserving the data that future generations will use when they look to mix martial arts to suit _their_ needs in _their_ threat environment.


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## Bob

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Thanks for this suggestion. I do practice drawing and opening with a live blade because I believe that what we do in practice is what we'll do in an actual situation (albeit more sloppily when under pressure) but I'd rather have a non-sharpened version for most of my practicing alone and all of my practicing with a partner. I think it's a great idea. I did some web-searching and found the knife but not the corresponding trainer--I'll keep looking. I'd be quite willing to pay for a new blade but now will be looking for one that comes with a matching dummy. I thought they only did that on custom knives!
> 
> Thanks for pointing out the differences in the custom and production versions. I'm not yet ready to pay several hundred dollars for something I stick in my pocket on occasion and have never had to use, but I think I will try a cheaper version and see how well I like it then see if I can get ahold of someone's custom version at a seminar or camp and see if I can feel the difference. I'm still not sure that I'll like that "pistol-style" grip but I do want to give it a try. *



Here is site you might want to check out www.crkt.com. Columbia river knives are rather impressive not only for the durability but the price is right too. A few of the guys carry Columbia River knives in addition to their Wortacs.  I am rather partial to the Wortac for obvious reason, but also because the pistol grip design works well with larger hands.....


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I believe that almost all arts were effective in their day if they survived to this one. (Don, I'm not by any means suggesting that you believe this type of thing--I hear it in conversations I have with other martial artists who are rightly pleased with their modern, mixed martial arts and it frustrates me.) Respect and thanks are due those who came before us; as Isaac Newton said in a different context, "If I have seen further than others then it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants", and indeed I note the Gracies, for example, give much credit to the "giant" Jigora Kano for his innovations of 120 years ago that were one step in the road to their art.*



Yes, in their day and in that particular context of perhaps...stylized fighting...indeed, they were effective.

I'll give you an example of something that has been a concern to me, personally with regard to Filipino Martial Bladecraft.

Without starting a potential flamewar, I will say this...a few FMAs that have this "outlook" are not generally talked about on this Forum. I'm not talking about Arnis or Modern Arnis either...

So, I have one particular style of FMA on the tip of my tongue and I'm not going to go into that...but this is what I think about some things...

There are a very few FMAs where the bladework is _extremely fast_ and I have said before [and suffered a TON of nonsense because of it] is, The Philippines are very HOT! People usually do not wear...COATS! Hahahahaha...here...several months out of the year...we...wear...COATS! So...what is incredibly viable in the original environment remains viable for someone living in Southern California, Arizona...Florida...places like that in The United States. They are viable in their country of origin.

They are not quite so viable in most other areas of this country where they are sometimes promoted.

I said that once and people literally went wacky on me! I never said their Art was not viable, nor beautiful and certainly never called them ineffective. I remembered saying that people need to put a tad bit more _power_ into some Blade Styles and that would allow them to penetrate through jackets and coats which are more common here many months out of the year.

They simply got pissed and they could never understand what I was saying. It was amazing. It was viewed as an insult.

Tuhon Bill McGrath wrote an excellent article that parallels the use of "short knife v. long knife" that appeared in Inside Kung Fu Magazine and I believe it is on his Website as well. 

Some people mirror what I believe and they say that the focus with short knives because of coats and jackets, that the focus should be more on _thrusting_ than on cutting, PERIOD. And there is something to be said for that as well.

But, more on this in a bit. The car is warmed and a short trip to Baltimore City will provide a nice view of fireworks.

HAPPY NEW YEARS!


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> There are a very few FMAs where the bladework is extremely fast and I have said before [and suffered a TON of nonsense because of it] is, The Philippines are very HOT! People usually do not wear...COATS! Hahahahaha...here...several months out of the year...we...wear...COATS! So...what is incredibly viable in the original environment remains viable for someone living in Southern California, Arizona...Florida...places like that in The United States. They are viable in their country of origin.
> 
> They are not quite so viable in most other areas of this country where they are sometimes promoted.
> *



This was _precisely_ the example I had in mind when I referred to style of address; I mentioned the T-shirt only because it was a shorter example to describe. The one time someone used a knife in attacking me, it was winter in Providence, RI and I had on a thick winter jacket and he had a relatively small blade. It would have provideded me some protection from weak slices--particularly if the knife was dull (luckily I didn't find out)--and might have helped with a stab if it was partially deflected or what have you. It also hampered my movements of course.

Much of jujitsu was developed for combat between two people wearing wooden armor and who may well have had swords on their person. That too was a specialized circumstance.

Your point on additional power is well taken, but I must say that I am not surprised by the reaction you received. It's the "sensei said..." mentality. Once again, from the point of view of preservation of the art _as an art_ that's important, but from a practicality point of view...well, if I recall correctly it is an established fact that the colder the region, the more likely that the indigenous fighting arts will emphasize grappling rather than striking. (Please don't ask for a source; I can picture the article but can't recall the journal.) It matters.


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Much of jujitsu was developed for combat between two people wearing wooden armor and who may well have had swords on their person. That too was a specialized circumstance.*



And you just struck upon something I have told Jujutsu Folks for a long, long time. If you tangle with someone who knows FMAs, even has a basic idea of them and you are a JJ Player, you're going to get hurt...and not just a little bit.

The reason for this is, JJ and more appropriately, Aikijutsu, the knife defenses in those Arts were designed to defeat multiple Ryu of Tantojutsu.

Now, that is a different ballgame and if you have ever seen Tantojutsu, you will see some similarities in FMA, _some_ is the keyword. It tends to be free flowing to a degree, but with more specific targeting at times, more stylized at times. The armor worn was a part of the reason for this.

If you look in that article I posted, you will see a Tripod for Knife Defenses in most Martial Arts today.

Most Martial Arts knife defenses work on the idea that the thrust or cut will be a committed one and because power will be generated, it will usually be telegraphed to a degree.

Both of these are because of armor. Oftentimes, you knew the guy only had a half dozen options or less, you basically knew where he was going to go, you knew he was going to be committed because he had to drive through and you knew that in generating that power, there is no way you can totally hide that generation of same.

This is why a deflection, sweeping up into a wristlock and a projection works well in that particular way of fighting.

When JJ Folks extrapolate from that particular reality, a way of dealing with ALL edged weapons attacks, they are courting disaster because they are working on the assumption that just because their Art [Counterknife in JJ against Tantojutsu] was a successful Battlefield Art and it was PROVEN on that Battlefield, that this carries over to a completely different set of circumstances.

But life does not work that way, ever.

Kali, Escrima and Arnis Bladearts do not work that way. They are fast, they are all geared towards multiple slashing and thrusting in a non-specific pattern [for the most part, you learn patterns and then just DO IT when you have to]. 

There is also the principle of _enganyo,_ which is deception in knife fighting. It is also in stick work, but much more so in edged weapons.

At the moment before a thrust with a knife lands, the skilled bladesman can rotate the edge and what the person thought they had to defend against, a thrust on a dedicated line, has now become a slash and because of that rotation and that power in the wrist, the same coiled flexing power that drives abanico with a stick, that slash is indeed very powerful.

In reverse, slashes can become thrusts. A slash that appears to be coming on one line can encircle a limb that attempts to intercept [circle cutting the limb, adhesion] and this can severely disable the person's ability to perform any defensive maneuver with that hand at all.

I could go on forever on this, it simply shows the extreme depth that Filipino Martial Arts have. Really...

Now, you're probably not going to get mugged by a high level Bladesman, but you might get mugged by someone that has some training or has an idea, through training or simply having some natural ability with a blade or by being naturally sneaky.


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## IFAJKD

I love this site ! You are both hitting on the essence of knife fighting. It is unpredictable, rapidly changes angles and methods of attack and for those non believers is faster than the eye.  There has been an openess in "cross training" martial arts that has never before been even tolerated. As any art evolves it does so to address the reality of the times. FMA  have been that (in general) evolutionary. There is much discussion about the reality of the blade but I have to chime in on another aspect. That is the attributes of training the blade. As I have said before, Sensitivity is the key to hand trapping. Make a mistake and you get hit. Sensitivity with a blade is on a whole other level. That mistake is much more costly. If you have ever watched a "kickboxer" fight you see the wide range of motion and sweeping kicks, high kicks showy stuff I call fluff. Bring a blade into that picture and the movement changes completly (hopefully) This is what I refer to as "bladed motion" it is the ability to fight this same way with or without a weapon. This attribute that is developed when there is a constant threat of a blade can make a pperson very hard to hit. 
Neuor-muscular development in how the eye trains from having trained stick or knife, mechanics for knife sensitivity drills. Even knife sparring and teaching a large man to move like a small man. In the end the blade has many truths. I can't wait to find more. 
Someone made a comment that you would never have to fight a trained blade man. Possibly not  But I have seen many gang bangers and thugs training knives. 
For anyone who hasn't seen it Dan Inosanto and many others helped produce a tape for Law Enforcement called "Surviving Edged Weapons" If you have seen it, recall the scene of the prision inmates training blade in the yard. We do live in a bladed culture and as such the knife can be easily self taught to an effective degree. And many Are out there. I work with them every day and improvised weapons are a constant threat. 
Don I have really appreciated your comments and as always it's good to hear Arnisador as he has always brought thoughtful and right on commentary. Thanks. Keep it up
J


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## IFAJKD

Oh yeah Bob
Try the Gerber Gator. Nice rubber grip, good blade great lock easy to open especially if you tool it a bit and sharp. The edge is sharpened at a different angle so carefuen trying to resharpen it. Also Now inexpensive


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## Cthulhu

I loved those knives!  I had the first production run Gator and Gator Serrator.  Unfortunately, some dumbass broke the tip off the Gator by trying to use it as a crowbar.  I can't remember what happened to my Serrator.  They had 'First Production Run' stamped into the blade.  I used the Gator a LOT, and wore down the rubber grip.

Couldn't really do a one-hand open with the thumb, but you could flick it out like a switchblade in a reverse grip.

I miss those knives  

Cthulhu


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *The reason for this is, JJ and more appropriately, Aikijutsu, the knife defenses in those Arts were designed to defeat multiple Ryu of Tantojutsu. *



Which as you indicate was different--for good reasons at the time. As you point out, with the armore it likely made sense to fight that way (I am reminded of the blade-fighting in the sci-fi novel *Dune*), but it doesn't carry over to other situations.

Great post Mr. Rearic! I gave up on the article you cited before due to its length but now I think I'll go back and read the whole thing. The issue of expecting a committed attack, as aikidoka do, but getting instead a FMA practitioner bent on defanging the snake is dead-on. I say things like this all the time--if you're in the military and need to take out a sentry before he spreads the alarm then you'll be making that committed, solid strike (be it a stab or a slash) as you have no other option but to silence him immediately, but if instead you're the sentry you're going to be playing the FMA game while screaming "Intruder!" at the top of your lungs. You'll be giving slashes to the hand/forearm, changing direction, sticking and cutting, and hoping he will try the classical X-block defense against you so you can cut both hands at once.

This is something I think is so eye-opening for people used to using a knif ethe way they were taught to use a sai (same reverse punch motion but with a weapon that's an extension of the hand): The blade is everywhere, and it isn't coming in at all like a punch. It's a whole different ballgame.


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## arnisador

I appreciate the positive comments IFAJKD and agree that this site has been most informative. (Here's what it _could_ have been: http://www.docepares.com/webboard.htm "The Doce Pares Message Board".) Can you expand on "bladed motion" when one does not actually have a blade? I'm used to _blade awareness_ with the stick and even in empty hands flow drills but I think you're hitting at something more general.



> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *
> Someone made a comment that you would never have to fight a trained blade man. Possibly not  But I have seen many gang bangers and thugs training knives.
> For anyone who hasn't seen it Dan Inosanto and many others helped produce a tape for Law Enforcement called "Surviving Edged Weapons" If you have seen it, recall the scene of the prision inmates training blade in the yard. We do live in a bladed culture and as such the knife can be easily self taught to an effective degree.
> J *



The toughest _committed_ knife attack for me to defend against (during  practice) is one that was always described to me as a prison technique--basically a right-handed number 11 toward the right side of the opponent's neck/face while stepping forward with the right foot, followed by a rapid change to a powerful number 4 slashing across his chest, all while pressing forward. Unless you _really_ move, coming up to defend against the number 11 leaves you open for the number 4 to cut across your chest under your elbows. Like anything I suppose I'd have to demonstrate it to show why this particular combination was troublesome for me--it's in how the number 11 fake is done and the change of speed/power in goint to the number 4. It always gave me trouble.


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## Bob

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *For anyone who hasn't seen it Dan Inosanto and many others helped produce a tape for Law Enforcement called "Surviving Edged Weapons" If you have seen it, recall the scene of the prision inmates training blade in the yard. We do live in a bladed culture and as such the knife can be easily self taught to an effective degree. And many Are out there. I work with them every day and improvised weapons are a constant threat.
> J *



This is a really good discussion and I am learning a lot of good stuff, thanks everyone....
I think IFAJKD has brought out a very good point here. What I took from "Surviving the edge weapon" is the reality that where there is a will there is a way. Meaning if someone has intent to do harm they will. When I approached Datu Worden 10 years ago in regards to learning how to defend myself against a blade, the first lesson he taught me was to understand the intent behind someone attacking me with a blade. ( Which follows along with a earlier comment about resposibility of teaching knife) And he taught me about the intent that I would need in order to survive a knife fight. I took these lessons further and started to really observe people in my surroundings. I was a doorman at a country bar for a while so I made it a game to see how many knives I could spot on various people. I started with the easy ones, "The clip its" because most people did not think about concealment they just cliped it to their pants pockets. The thing that struck me funny is the excuse they gave me when I asked them to put in their car was "I forgot it was there". Then I started to observe other inconsistant behavior; for example people who were constantly adjusting their boots. I wish you all could have seen the looks on their faces when I called them on it. 
 Other things I observed, were the way people carried the sheathed folders. The first time I saw a potential altercation with a guy who had a sheathed folder was that he unsnaped the flap and folded it behind the blade. 
 I guess what I am trying to convey here is that when teaching knife craft or any self defense the student needs to be taught to studying the behavior and mannerism of everyone they see. I try to spot a behavoir and mannerism in order to allow me a few extra seconds to either leave that environment or respond to the potential threat.  The main issue that we face from someone with knife is that of concealment and surprise. Action is quicker then reaction and we all know this, I feel we need to look at ways to counteract this equation. 
Thanks
Bob
P.s Thanks for the Gerber suggestion, but when I played with that one it just didn't fit me right.


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## IFAJKD

Bladed Motion: I will try to expand. When I teach JUn Fan Kickboxin combining drills from savate and muay Thai I basically teach to avoid the traditional slug fest. To do this you have to stick and move, evade, angle, intercept and destroy, Feint and fake and you utilize short rapid movements while your hands are constantly in motion with footwork supporting. If you can visualize this movement in a kickboxing senario you would see low line attacks. Attacks to open lines while it closes a follow up attack or perhaps Attack by drawing to another line. This is all bladed motion. the "cat like" stuff people talk about is actually there from knife sparring. I have a few rather big students who I teach to try to move like small men. They have acomplished this by Knife training. Vu used to swing a staff over everyone's head when doing the box pattern to keep us small and hugging the ground more. 
This is the flow that comes again from training the blade. There is no room for wide sweeping movements as you get hit badly by someone closing and picking and drawing. Think Bruce Lees Five ways of attack and implement them with a blade all interchangebly in ONE knife sparring session and you will never see anyone trading cuts. YOU CAN'T. If you respect the blade. You move as to avoid being cut. Now apply that to constant sparring weapons or not and you become very elusive and hard to hit while you pick and look to enter. Typically with pain and applying pressure (usually a 50 mph sprint down centerline, think Bruce's straight blast) to HKE at aprox 6 hits per second. 
I don't know if I explained it very well but it is not really general but rather, a very specific way of moving.


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## Bob

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *Bladed Motion: . I have a few rather big students who I teach to try to move like small men. They have acomplished this by Knife training. . *



I agree with what your saying totally. Datu Worden refers to becoming small as the "predator stance". When trying to explain the mobility and movement needed in knife fighting he makes reference to a basketball player..... 
But what I would like to comment most of all on his that knife work does make big guys move better and more fluid. I try to explain to large guys that they need to get rid of the "go through walls" attitude and realize that he Filipino arts were designed by small guys. By changing that attitude and by showing them that a big guys who fights like small guys can become very verstile and rather sneaky. I too am a large guy, and have the apperance of a slow, lumbering sloth but I like that, because that gives me concealment.  A lot of my attributes came from training knife and realizing that I can stand there and take a round house to the head, but I can't take a knife slice. So by training knife tactics alot really changed my empty hand strategies.
Thanks
Bob


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *For anyone who hasn't seen it Dan Inosanto and many others helped produce a tape for Law Enforcement called "Surviving Edged Weapons" If you have seen it, recall the scene of the prision inmates training blade in the yard. We do live in a bladed culture and as such the knife can be easily self taught to an effective degree. And many Are out there. I work with them every day and improvised weapons are a constant threat.*



Yes, Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje Jr. and Guro Dan Inosanto made an impression that keeps on giving over a decade later.

That video probably saved alot of lives in Law Enforcement and maybe a few Martial Artists over the years...ya never know.

The negative aspect of it is, they show it at Academies and during In-Service now and the result is, alot of people get hassled for clip carried pocketknives and they might not even know Filipino Arts exist. 

Some people don't know "Kali" from the Hindu Goddess Kali. And I don't know if "Kali" is now slang for dope or not, but kids use it now for a slangword for something.

*Gladiator Academies*

This is where the rubber meets the road in a big, big way.

Lock and strip? Locks and strips were originally more of a movement accomplished where you had already disabled someone with a knife or stick. You can then blow a knife out like that.

Done empty handed without and disabling hit or cut, empty handed or with a stick...Kubotan, etc... Well, they will work sometimes as well.

The problem is, I've said this before and received a blast of hot air as well...

If you go up against someone who just served 12 years and he has been eating liver and vitamins and pumping iron for the last decade...having that bar in his hand with all that weight attached...

Well, forget about anything fancy. Just pray you can bust him up and get out of there. Or pray that you can deflect that knife until you can cripple his knee, good old Sikaran!

If you are unfortunate enough to get thrusted, hold on to that bastard like your life depends on it, because it does, and just kick the ever-lovin' snot out of his lowline, bite him in the throat, whatever you have to do to get through that.



> *Don I have really appreciated your comments and as always it's good to hear Arnisador as he has always brought thoughtful and right on commentary. Thanks. Keep it up
> J *



Alot of what I wrote in that article was pent up frustration over the years. And I have seen people get hurt doing stupid things they were taught. Some of it was less personal, having debates with less than mature individuals on Bulletin Boards. You never quite know who you are talking to and I suspect that some of the worst "offenders" were kids who simply worshipped Pay Per View Events.


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Great post Mr. Rearic! I gave up on the article you cited before due to its length but now I think I'll go back and read the whole thing.*



Thanks Arnisador.

I'll tell you something, when I wrote that I had a single sheet of yellow legal pad with things I wanted to touch on. That piece was intended to go on the Website. What I found while writing it was, 500 or so words were Pre-Apologies for those that would be offended because I really do *not* wish to offend people or discourage them.

I also don't want them waking up in a local Shock Trauma and wanting to take a ball peen hammer to their Martial Arts Teacher... for having boffed their bank account and they did not really receive anything except a $25,000.00 medical bill...and that is a low estimate for a couple days in a Trauma Unit. You can get there very fast.

As I was writing it, I kept checking using Tools in MS Word and I was groaning about the length, the number of words and as it turned out, I placed it up there.

I really did not want a Three Installment ***** Session, breaking it up into Parts, and I know it is lengthy.

Give it a read though and if you have to, take a break or two to split it up. Or print it out and then read a couple pages and set it down for a bit. Take a highlighter and see if you can take something from it. That's why it is there.


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *Think Bruce Lees Five ways of attack and implement them with a blade all interchangebly in ONE knife sparring session and you will never see anyone trading cuts.*



That's the Western Fencing influence coming out in JKD, God bless Sifu Lee. Brilliant Man.


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## Bob

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> 
> Gladiator Academies
> 
> This is where the rubber meets the road ni a big, big way.
> 
> Lock and strip? Locks and strips were originally more of a movement accomplished where you had already disabled someone with a knife or stick. You can then blow a knife out like that.
> 
> Done empty handed without and disabling hit or cut, empty handed or with a stick...Kubotan, etc... Well, they will work sometimes as well.
> 
> The problem is, I've said this before and received a blast of hot air as well...
> 
> If you go up against someone who just served 12 years and he has been eating liver and vitamins and pumping iron for the last decade...having that bar in his hand with all that weight attached...
> 
> Well, forget about anything fancy. Just pray you can bust him up and get out of there. Or pray that you can deflect that knife until you can cripple his knee, good old Sikaran!
> 
> If you are unfortunate enough to get thrusted, hold on to that bastard like your life depends on it, because it does, and just kick the ever-lovin' snot out of his lowline, bite him in the throat, whatever you have to do to get through that.
> 
> 
> 
> Alot of what I wrote in that article was pent up frustration over the years. And I have seen people get hurt doing stupid things they were taught. Some of it was less personal, having debates with less than mature individuals on Bulletin Boards. You never quite know who you are talking to and I suspect that some of the worst "offenders" were kids who simply worshipped Pay Per View Events. *



Exactly Mr. Rearic I totally agree, that is my point I was trying to make earlier. We don't know and we spend a lot of time learning how to defend from a knife, but we don't look at the user, or the intent of the user.  I have met many people in my time that would not think twice about sticking someone, and they never trained in a martial art, and I have met many martial artists that have never met anyone who would stick them, but they claim to be able to defend themselves from an attacker. Self defense in any form should start with lessons on awarness, who is stereotypical attacker and who is not etc etc. People need to look at the behavior and mannerisms of the people around you. I am not saying go to a biker bar, but I am saying that the training needs to go beyond the school........ I try and take anyone interested in self defense and first show them how to walk and observe. A criminal profiler told me once that every action or intent has a behavior that can observe. 
Thanks
Bob


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## Don Rearic

Bob,

And what you said about looking for pocket clips is dead-on too. Belt sheaths for like, Buck 110 Folders are basically antiquated now, but I agree...if you see one that is:

1. Unsnapped.
2. Flap folded back behind knife.
3. Flap cut off entirely, open sheath-pocket.
4. Sheath is upside down to drop the knife in the hand.

All of those indicates one of two things. You either have a _Thinker_ or you have someone that has something specific on his mind. 

Looking for any "printing" through clothing can give you a good heads up on what might be in your immediate future as well.

I know where I grew up, I was surrounded by Bikers and Dopers. Both of which were blade users.

The Buck 110 and all variants of that time from Old Timer, Case, Schrade, etc., as well as small skinner fixed blades worn openly and with a blade length that would not get them hassled by the Police in the 70s and early to mid 1980s...

These guys were treacherous. Those "Flick-Its" and "One Arm Bandits" that you could place on a Buck 110's blade back then before Spyderco popularized one handed openers were used sometimes, other times, guys would simply work a Buck 110 with gun oil until they could snap it open.

I personally knew one Biker who would have a Buck 110 in an open sheath on the left hand side to give the idea that he was left handed.

But he had a second *concealed* Buck 110 in his right back pocket and while he drew attention and someone was watching his left hand, deliberate misdirection and weapons fixation, he would have that right handed Buck 110 out in a flash.

This goes back to _Enganyo_ as well. Deception. 

Also, on two occasions...both outside of bars, I saw guys take a fantastic beating from "Chain Drive Belts."

To those that have never seen these nasty buggers, think of the chain drive belt, actually, if you are not familiar at all with this stuff...

Imagine you had four (4) bicycle chains that were not connected, meaning, you had four lengths of bicycle chain, lay them all side by side. Now imagine the links are twice as large and you have a belt that is over an inch wide...

That's a "Chain Drive Belt." I know they used to be sold in Harley Davidson Shops in the 80s and I have not seen them lately. They came with a big old, heavy metal Harley belt buckle as well. Guys actually wore these Judas Priest [hey! there's a blast from the past, yeah?] looking things in their pants. They were heavily chromed and shiny. And they were about the most vicious damned thing in a streetfight you ever did see. Right up there with Speed-O cables run through your belt loops...another old Streetfighter's Nasty.

I hear from a friend of mine who is into "Tactical Things" like you and I, that one Biker was busted and he had a chain wallet, right? The wallet had a large, flattened out chunk of lead in it. What this did was turned this big, rectangular Biker's Chain Wallet into a blackjack.

He beat the charge in Court, told the Judge that the weight was to hold it in his pocket. [Thanks for the info Seth!]

So, there are so many different things out there and I agree with you, you have to have eyes as sharp as your blade. You have to watch out...


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## Bob

yep, I know what your talking about with the bikers. Datu always tells stories about his biker associates too. Remember that article he wrote about 6 years ago, call "Biker ryu" (sp). He made mention of everything you spoke about. 
I try to always remember that if a nice guy like me can think of these deceptive things then a guy who lives the life does too. I had a buddy ( notice had) he carried around one of those big "gurkas" (I know the spelling is wrong) and said that was his knife of choice. I proceeded to tell him and show him the error of his ways. 
I think a good way to sum it all up is with a quote from a good friend, "I carry 3 knives and a ball point pen" "the first one is to show ya, the second and third is to throw at ya, and the ball point pen is to stick ya with".. That is not word for word, but pretty close........
I must say again you all have given me some good stuff to think about and remember....
Thanks
Bob


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *Remember that article he wrote about 6 years ago, call "Biker ryu" (sp).*



I have a little "Project" going on, Brother Bob, ask The Datu about that article today. Hahaha. It really had a TON of information in it. One of the few, priceless "Martial Arts Articles" that are floating around out there. Something Black Belt dare not print.


----------



## Bob

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> 
> I have a little "Project" going on, Brother Bob, ask The Datu about that article today. Hahaha. It really had a TON of information in it. One of the few, priceless "Martial Arts Articles" that are floating around out there. Something Black Belt dare not print.  *



I will do that...... And I will be looking forward to seeing the results your project. I am sure by the knowledge and energy you have displayed in this forum you will definately get your point across....
Bob


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *Bladed Motion: I will try to expand. When I teach JUn Fan Kickboxin combining drills from savate and muay Thai I basically teach to avoid the traditional slug fest. To do this you have to stick and move, evade, angle, intercept and destroy, Feint and fake and you utilize short rapid movements while your hands are constantly in motion with footwork supporting. If you can visualize this movement in a kickboxing senario you would see low line attacks. Attacks to open lines while it closes a follow up attack or perhaps Attack by drawing to another line. This is all bladed motion. the "cat like" stuff people talk about is actually there from knife sparring. I have a few rather big students who I teach to try to move like small men. They have acomplished this by Knife training. *



Thanks, I think I get it now. Yes, knife training really changes a large fighter's perspective! You make much more use of that fact than I have. I'll think about it more.


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## IFAJKD

I'm glad that it made sense. It isn't that I make more of that fact it's just such a strong influence from Vunak that we train for attributes over technique. Knife gives us some incredible attributes.


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## DWright

My first self defense instructor was a Police Officer, and his words of wisdom were, "if you ever find yourself in a knife fight, draw your gun and shoot the SOB."

Smart man.  He also taught a valuable lesson while teaching us knive disarms and sparring techniques.  The lesson,  Even the winner gets hurt.  As proved withed chalked blades.


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## paulk

Hi

I have seen here in the UK some footage of US Police training videos showing some experiments on the effectiveness of a trained knife fighter against an officer with a gun.

The scenario was how far can a good knife fighter travel and cause damage before the officer can draw and get off 2 rounds.

The test showed that any closer that 21 feet and the cop was dead meat.

My point is that we should not discard knife defences from that we teach or learn, we should just put them into perspective.

Unarmed knife defences are designed to defend against a person with a knife. This is hugely different to defending against a knife fighter.

Oh and a Happy new Year to all


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## Cthulhu

PaulK,

I believe what you saw was the now famous Tueller Drill.

In the early 80's, a Utah deputy sheriff named Dennis Tueller ran a series of tests using people of different ages and body types.  He found that, on average, a person could cover about 21 feet in roughly 1.5 seconds.  Police officers (at that time...not sure of now) took about that amount of time to unholster their gun and fire two aimed shots.  Tueller knew from experience that someone who has been shot doesn't necessarily drop right away, so he determined that a person armed with a knife of club 21 feet away from a LEO was a potentially lethal threat.

Note that the distance covered was pretty much for an average person, not necessarily a trained knife fighter.

Just look up 'Tueller Drill' in any search engine.  You'll find loads of stuff.  

Cthulhu


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> *My first self defense instructor was a Police Officer, and his words of wisdom were, "if you ever find yourself in a knife fight, draw your gun and shoot the SOB."*



I think that is a basic problem with Police Officers giving "hardcore" advice to folks without a careful examination of context and dynamics.

For most _uniformed_ Police Officers, with some awareness, they WILL be able to do this now. The Filipino Martial Arts teach viable footwork that WORKS with firearms.

If you are on an open range and you can practice drawing as you sidestep or as you move through a triangle pattern of footwork to retreat on 45 degree angles, etc., you will see some magical material.

The problem then comes down to this.

There is the X Factor, the _unknown._

Plainclothes Officers are usually not regular patrol officers, that's why I said "uniformed Police Officers."

Many times, uniformed Officers will be dispatched to a stabbing, cutting, beating, "man with an unknown weapon, man with a knife or man with a gun" call...

This is in context and an examination of dynamics.

The Citizen who has a concealed carry permit will almost without exception *not* have that luxury of _foreknowledge_ to perform as many Police Officers suggest. 

Likewise, the plainclothes Officer may or may not have that foreknowledge and the Off Duty Officer attacked at say, an ATM, will likewise not have that luxury.

When you have an idea of what the deal is going into the fray, you are much better prepared.

As Guro Dan Inosanto graphically demonstrated in Calibre Press' "Surviving Edged Weapons," it is not so easy to simply draw and shoot.

You can simply be bumrushed with a blade, your hands can be tied up in extreme CQC and if you get the hand on the firearm, it can be pinned there.

So it is always a matter of having the skill to deal with the initial attack and then draw whatever weapon you have, gun or knife.

Cthulhu's post is correct, re: Dennis Tueller.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I believe what you saw was the now famous Tueller Drill.*



Thanks, I hadn't known the history of this.

The advice I have heard from police is not to bother drawing the sidearm if the person has a knife and is within 18 feet of them. Maybe that takes into account the fact that 21 feet was based on an _average_ person, or maybe it varies by state and other factors.


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## Don Rearic

It will vary from region to region, department to department. I think it is safe to say that if you have a knife in your hand and you are within _thirty feet_ of most Police Officers and you are told to drop the knife. And you do not do so...you run a very real risk of eating some lead.

There will always be Officers who feel confident, right or wrong, in their ability and will allow some people to be in extreme, close proximity to them. But for the majority of Officers...if you are told to drop the knife from across the street, better drop it...


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## DWright

It has been my experience that the officers who are feeling confident are usually the ones that end up in the emergency room.  The 21 foot rule has been challanged many times by those officers who think that they are "quick draw".   I have yet to see one win.

A newer training style was to always carry,  in hand, a PR-24,(side-handle baton)  any time the officer makes a contact, good guy or bad.  This dramatically increases the officers reaction time.  With practice the officer can look pretty casual with it, but ready.

Great fun to play with too.


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## IFAJKD

First I don't think that anyone has said to discard disarms or any training. Only train in perspective. There are many varibles to a knife encounter. The constants are the ever changing angles, the point and the edge and potential for damage, bleeding out, trauma, shock, emotional & psychological  effect and finally the long term effect such an event can have on you. I believe we will fight as we train. training in perspective does not mean we give up the fight but that we use another tool as well as our physical ones, our brains. 
The aspect of how accurate even well trained officers will be under stress further muddy's the waters in an ability to effectivly shoot or not shoot. Many decisions go into pulling the trigger for someone NOT bent on destruction such as an officer, a citizen with a CCP or someone simply protecting themselves within their own home. THis stress does funny things to our perceptions, acuity, depth and steadiness, This against someone with a knife who IS bent on harming you and we can see how we already start off in a disadvantage. It is hard and often impossible to level that playing field so knowledge becomes our best weapon. Train this game as realistically as you can. Personally I have done more knife work than most yet not as much as maybe many on this site....yet I feel as if I have scratched the surface of knowledge.  These are the posts that help us all sort throught these things
Thanks


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## Bob

Well said IFAJKD!!!! First of all I would like to say that the "one steps" or "techniques" taught to defend against a knife is the basis for developing it all into "knife fighting". Once you are relatively comfortable with your technique then the analysis begins. The questions on body position, options, return lines, fading, fainting, drawing mobility and the "reality of what you are training for" becomes more important. 
I have been studying knife fighting for a little while and the reality came and smacked me in the face the first time I was confronted with a blade on the streets. Luckily, (thanks to the martial gods) my decision to re-act the way I did, defused the situation. That is when I found my perspective. I realized that I had not trained with perspective and did not fully appreciate the potential for danger. ( I was young and DUMB) 
I guess the moral to this story is "perspective".  I don't know how many of you all carry a blade for self-defense but I try to always express to younger or newer students the need to ask yourself do your really understand what you are studying.  Do you feel that you could actually use this against someone??? I really try to express the reality of it all........ 
One of the questions police oral boards ask the interviewee is can you shoot someone. Well, yes but with a lot of therapy afterwards. Then I took that one step further and looked at how intimate and potentially final a knife fight or defending yourself with a knife can be. With a gun there usually a little distance, but with a knife especially a clip-it you are right there..... 
I know this sounds dramatic, but I think these questions help us gain perspective on what we are studying. There is a responsibility with teaching self defense, but when it comes to weapons and especially knifes there is a greater responsibility to ensure that students find that perspective before they learn the hard way...... 
I hope my dramatic rantings do some good, and I hope my point was clear. 
Thanks
Bob


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> *It has been my experience that the officers who are feeling confident are usually the ones that end up in the emergency room.  The 21 foot rule has been challanged many times by those officers who think that they are "quick draw".   I have yet to see one win.*



I know one, local, 25 year veteran on a Department that is good enough to draw extremely fast. I know because I shoot with him. 

Let me say something that is unpopular with some Law Enforcement folks currently. They take it as an "insult."

The basic thing is this. The handgun is a _tool_ of their job. As their job became more of a Social Worker's, the weapons-aspect was downplayed. Almost...in some areas...to the point of shunning skill with a handgun.

Sadly, today...most Police Officers are not Gun Owners, I know about a dozen that only "own" the handgun they are issued. I know a good bit more that have purchased with their own money, a compact version of the Duty Weapon they have been issued, that is the only firearm they really own besides the Department Issued piece.

Without exception, the best shooters I know on these local departments are not only Gun Owners, they own multiple guns and they LIKE guns. In fact, alot of them are NRA Members. I think this is something that Police Administrators like to gloss over.

If you want to be skilled with a lathe, you must learn it, then you must experiment with it and to be truly skilled...indeed, you must enjoy it. Any sort of Machinist Equipment is that way. 

_It is an intimate knowledge, familiarity._

I would not say that all Police are "doomed" within that sphere, but they are most certainly in danger, extreme danger.

As Police Departments become increasingly politicized and antigun, you will see less skill. You will see qualifications but that does not mean squat. A qualification is just that, a minimum standard for keeping your job.

It is that intimate knowledge and skill at arms that will save you in the most dire circumstances and it matters not if your weapon is like mine, a Sig Sauer P-220 semiautomatic handgun, a Custom fixed blade or folding knife, a $50.00 Spyderco or a telescoping ASP baton. It does not matter.

Most, not all, but most Officers today do not have that intimate knowledge, nor are they actively encouraged to cultivate it. Instead, they are shunned as "Gun Nuts" if they do. If they want to carry a folding knife around here, they better answer to the Lt. or Capt. that it is a seat belt cutter and not as a back up tool in close quarters. If so...you get the idea, they can be branded a "Nut" just as easily as any defense-minded person can be.

They have their own bucket of excrement they have to deal with as well. And quite frankly, some of them simply look at their job like someone looks at a management position at a Wal-Mart. It's just a job to them. That's not an insult, that is a reality.

It is the Officer who enjoys shooting, he is the one that will usually be much more skilled. That is not encouraged today in most departments. And no videotape beyond giving them a few, logical and simple concepts, will ever make them more viable on the street with their handgun. 

Everyone remembers when they first learned to drive. Can you imagine spending the time with a Learner's Permit and then you go out and you drive for two hours every six months? How good are you going to get? How fast and accurate will you be when it counts? In a car, will you be able to check those mirrors every 7 to 14 seconds and find your "Out" in traffic BY AUTOMATIC RESPONSE...? How will your reflexes be?

Substitute "Learner's Permit" with "Police Academy" and the "every six months" as the In-Service Qualification.

Even quarterly qualification is not that great!

No, it is the Officer that actually enjoys shooting that is going to be the most effective.

This has a place in this conversation. And for those that wish to carry edged or impact weapons defensively, for lifesaving purposes, take heed. It applies to you as well.


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## IFAJKD

Yeah, very well said as well.  I struggled with teaching certain knife aspects in mixed arts classes but when I finally began to really dive into it a funny thing happened. Prior to this I would talk at length about the reality of blades and students would nod and yes me on it, some challenges but not many and never for long, but some even talked the talk. They had a very cerebral understanding of knife culture and effectiveness. It wasn't until I demo'd it for real that they had very clear reans, some disgust, some queezy, some just wanting to avoid the whole thing.....It just really hit me that though they responded with apparent understanding, they didn't get it on an emotional level. Their intellectual understanding was clear and I believe very real but their true self didn't understand it. In this case they didn't know what they didn't know. 
On NPR today someone mentioned  (regarding avalanches) that "experience is the result of bad decisions that you have lived through."  Well then,  I "TRY" to make my class full of opportunities to make bad decisions to result in an experience you will live through. The street is not so forgiving. 

I have to say that I have many opinions and never mean to come off as a guru or even to have any truths. I do not. And I apologize in advance, if I, at times, come off as I do. I just read most of my posts before I let em go and sometimes I wonder how It must sound.  Make no mistake, I am a lifetime student.


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *I have to say that I have many opinions and never mean to come off as a guru or even to have any truths. I do not. And I apologize in advance, if I, at times, come off as I do. I just read most of my posts before I let em go and sometimes I wonder how It must sound.  Make no mistake, I am a lifetime student. *



Friend,

I agree. Let me tell you something, I know some "Experts." I also know that I would never refer to myself as being one. I think "Expert" simply means you have nothing left to learn. That is not an insult, I think what I'm trying to say is...you stop learning, you stop growing, you stop growing, you're stunted.

I much prefer, "Operates on an Expert Level" to any sort of title. Because I have watched "Experts" become quickly baffled by a complete novice if for no other reason, they simply never expected for someone to do something so simple or stupid.

Even the simple and stupid things can kill you. This is why I advise people to obtain whatever materials they can find on whatever subject [defensive] they are interested in. I have a few knifefighting books that are HORRIBLE. But you know something? Someone out there who does not know a damned thing could pick something stupid out of that book and ace me with it if for no other reason I am so arrogant as to think no one would try or succeed at pulling it off.

No apologies necessary, you post well!

Respect,

Don


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## Bob

It is true and sad that police officers today are not encouraged, or given the opportunity to learn and practice the craft of Law enforcement. Being a good smart cop is an art... Mr. Rearic you are right it is the guy who loves guns who make the best shot because they practice and believe in what they are doing. I have a friend who is 2nd in command of a department here in Washington and he constantly trains weights/ firearms and hand to hand/weapon tactics, but he will also be the first to show you some great people skill too. He loves what he does and take it serious and creates opportunities for his officers to learns more about reality. I also know that his department is requiring training in knife tactics in order to carry a blade on duty..And on the otherside of the spectrum I know cops who don't really care as long as they know enough to pass their tests. 
In regards to IFAJKD, you have never came across as anothing more then a person who loves what he is doing. The point of my last post was more for the younger generation as well as the old ones that sometimes need to be reminded of the basics.... That is what I like about this thread it has brought out a lot of issues that I have not taken into account for sometime. 
In regards to Mr.Rearic and the beginners AMEN, the hardest most humbling lesson learned by a black belt is that a white belt is a hard person to handle!!!! That is why I find it the utmost importance that no matter how good, or knowledgable we get we have to remember the basics is where it is at, and what go us all to our levels.............. 
Thanks 
Bob


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *No, it is the Officer that actually enjoys shooting that is going to be the most effective.
> *



Even today, an officer draws his or her firearm much less often than one might think and actually _firing_ it remains a relatively rare occurrence. From Portland:


> Only 4.4 officers were involved annually in fatal shootings. In other words, and average officer could expect to be on the force 193 years without getting involved in a fatal shooting.


From MIT:


> There have been "two, maybe three situations" in the past 22 years at the Institute in which a police officer has had to fire a weapon, Glavin said. There have been none such instances in recent years, she added.


From a NYC police recruitment ad:


> In the ad, Detective Wally Salem recounts the statistic that "98 percent of police officers never shoot their guns."



The "social work" aspect as you put it _is_ a big part of their work nowadays, for better or worse. Drawing the weapon happens but firing it is rather uncommon. Therefore, I must disagree with your statement that "it is the Officer that actually enjoys shooting that is going to be the most effective" unless you meant it in the essentially tautological sense of being most effective at shooting (which goes without saying). He or she won't necessarily be any more effective at the vast bulk of his or her job. Shooting things is _not_ a large part of a police officer's job, unless their beat is on NBC.

If I were a police officer I would want to be prepared for this despite the rarity. But speaking for myself, I feel differently from you in that I do not lament the lack of gun owners amongst police officers (if this is indeed the case). It's only one tool of many; one might say the same about the lack of escrimadors, judoka, or psychologists. I would like to see more people going into police work because they _want to serve the community_, not because of their feelings for or against guns.

We're now discussing politics rather than martial arts! Perhaps we will have to request a forum for that.


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Even today, an officer draws his or her firearm much less often than one might think and actually firing it remains a relatively rare occurrence.*



What we were discussing is Officer Survival and how that works edged weapons vs. firearms in both a LEO and Civilian CCW context. Simple survival primary.

In that context, the Officer should have advanced training and what we were speaking about was primarily in that context.

It matters not what statistics are when you are the guy on the other end. The statistics then go to 100%. That is a problem with stats taken out of context.

Also, alot of those stats were drawn from "fatal shootings" or am I mistaken? That is different from merely firing as well.



> *The "social work" aspect as you put it is a big part of their work nowadays, for better or worse.*



It was always there but the focus is more on that instead of advanced training in weapons handling. That was the active point being made. They have always been Peacemakers, but they had something to really back that up and that is being lost to a degree. Unless the Officer does it him/herself and that was the active point.



> *Drawing the weapon happens but firing it is rather uncommon.*



That is still no excuse for not encouraging them to practice and in some cases, demanding it. You don't plan for the lowest common threat. You always plan for the worst and hope for the best.



> *Therefore, I must disagree with your statement that "it is the Officer that actually enjoys shooting that is going to be the most effective" unless you meant it in the essentially tautological sense of being most effective at shooting (which goes without saying). He or she won't necessarily be any more effective at the vast bulk of his or her job. Shooting things is not a large part of a police officer's job, unless their beat is on NBC.*



As I said, we were speaking of individual survival and I don't see anyone that could criticize it. Further, don't think two studies cited makes up for the rest of the country. Stats be damned, there are Police every night in this country firing weapons. Guaranteed.



> *If I were a police officer I would want to be prepared for this despite the rarity.*



You just underscored my point. You value your life and you would understand the danger. Many do not. Nor are they encouraged to do so in many cases. That, again, is an active point to be taken from my post. 



> *But speaking for myself, I feel differently from you in that I do not lament the lack of gun owners amongst police officers (if this is indeed the case). It's only one tool of many; one might say the same about the lack of escrimadors, judoka, or psychologists. I would like to see more people going into police work because they want to serve the community, not because of their feelings for or against guns.*



I never made a statement about anyone wanting to go into Police Work because they like firearms. I'll tell you something though, if I get pulled over at night because I have a turn signal or tail light out, I want the person stopping me in the dark to be supremely confident in not only their own safety, but their own skill. Part of that is precisely what I was speaking of. Close attention; _an intimate knowledge of the weapons they carry._

No one is jumpy, every one is slow and careful. You know? I have my Son in the car almost every time I go out, I don't like the fact I have armed people around me either. I would like for them to be confident and the training breeds that, and above else, intimate familiarity with weapons brings that forth.

See the Driver's/Learner's Permit analogy.



> *We're now discussing politics rather than martial arts! Perhaps we will have to request a forum for that.  *



"We?" I'm discussing Tactical Firearms and other weapons use. I never injected that word at all. I think politics is a part of it, as it is a part of the world of Martial Arts...as a matter of fact.

If I should make a comment about the private ownership of firearms, relationships with Police, perhaps the NRA Membership, do not be so quick as to label it "political." It was never intended in that light.

Times do change, however, and that change is often brought about by Politicians, so I would not be offended if it is the gravel at the bottom of the stream we are speaking about.

[Politics has in the past and will in the future, make a mark on Martial Arts. Watch for it. Especially with Bladed Arts.]

The bottom line is...as I said in closing above. This is basically about Tactical Mindset. This Forum is about Knife Arts. I would think a tad drift as long as the base, root of knowledge is still being discussed would be acceptable. This went from, "What is your view?" As a feeling out process, running forward, some would say fast forward, through counterknife and weapon to weapon attributes and tactics and reasons why certain things have been ignored. 

I would hate to see it suppressed since it is flowing so beautifully and it might go back and forth several times and come full circle if allowed to do so.

When we speak of "Knife Arts," we are speaking of Weapons Arts. Since people carry clubs, telescoping batons, edged weapons and firearms, I would think that in the Modern Application that we could get into "versus" discussions as this has been, with some drift. It really is the same as having a Kobudo Forum with a thread about Nunchaku Vs. Sai. We are just speaking of Modern Weapons and Tactical Applications of same.


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## Don Rearic

As I suspected, there was more to the statistics than meets the eye. Context times three, always required.

Consider this statement:



> From the "Portland" Article:
> *- Only 4.4 officers were involved annually in fatal shootings. In other words, and average officer could expect to be on the force 193 years without getting involved in a fatal shooting.*



What exactly does this mean? This is deliberate hyperbole. No one lives 193 years so the theoretical model offered as an interesting statistic is simply...not interesting to someone like me. It's merely someone crunching numbers to have filler material for their article.

Let's get to some meat.



> Orginally from the "Portland" Article:
> *Three policemen fired 16 shots to kill Bryan French, 21, as he held Nathan Thomas hostage on January 16 in Thomas' Laurelhurst home. French was hit 14 times; thomas was accidentally hit twice in the head and also died.*



That was not "accidental." That was negeligent and it was a negligence brought about by:

1. Pack mentality. Numbers to make up for individual skill.
2. A lack of overall skill.

One or two of those Officers were skilled. One or two were not, the hostage being hit twice...in the head...resulting in his death. Could have been two officers who missed hitting him twice or one Officer missed twice. I don't know.

I see no clearer picture to precisely make my point.

What is more important? What if that was my Child someone took hostage or yours?

The possibility is always there. People never consider these things. They have that firearm for a reason. They should be skilled with it.

Also, if you look in that same article where are all of those misses going? Every bullet has a final resting place. All things to consider.

I'm not trying to be combative. I'm trying to show you something.


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## IFAJKD

I sense a gun control issue coming on.    have em, like em , use em, support em, never all eggs in one basket, still prefer a knife.


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *I sense a gun control issue coming on.    have em, like em , use em, support em, never all eggs in one basket, still prefer a knife.*



Maybe, I hope you don't think so from me. I'm not headed that way at all. If from Arnisador, can I place a [shrug] here without drawing upon wrath?

I have no idea really. I don't support gun control at all. Anymore than I support stick or knife control. Both of which have already happened. 

But, as the warning suggested, we should not go that way and keep this Tactical...

I think people have a right to own and carry what they wish. Guns on down. That's another thing.

The first thing to remember is...the need for the individual Officer to be skilled as we stated. If they are skilled, they are much more equipped to handle very dangerous situations.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *Also, alot of those stats were drawn from "fatal shootings" or am I mistaken? That is different from merely firing as well.
> *



I think that that is correct--most of these are drawn from cases where there is a fatality. Still I think that adding in non-fatal shootings doesn't lead to a huge change--suppose it was a factor of two change? It's still the case that skill in firing a firearm is a rarely needed skill, however important it is when needed.

Another point I didn't mention is that disproportionately many instances of shootings by police are done by special teams (SWAT/Special Emergency Response Teams/etc.) so that the likelihood for an _average_ police offcier is even lower than the statistics would indicate.



> *That is still no excuse for not encouraging them to practice and in some cases, demanding it. You don't plan for the lowest common threat. You always plan for the worst and hope for the best.*



Agreed! They are of course required to qualify with the weapon periodically but I know you feel that that is often inadequate. But there is only so much time for training if they are to patrol and to file paperwork as well as train, and there are other weapons and non-weapons skills to train in. It's a trade-off that different agencies handle differently. And remember, it may not be _just_ a job but it _is_ a job and at some point they will want to put it behind them when the day is done and relax!



> *
> I never made a statement about anyone wanting to go into Police Work because they like firearms. *



Sorry, that's what I had understood from your post, from comments such as "Sadly, today...most Police Officers are not Gun Owners" and that police departments are becoming "politicized and antigun". I inferred that you meant you'd like to see more police officers by (private) gun owners and I disagreed with this.

I very much agree with your comment that if I was pulled over I'd rather have it be by someone who is confident enough with their weapon to _not_ be jumpy.



> *
> I would hate to see it suppressed since it is flowing so beautifully and it might go back and forth several times and come full circle if allowed to do so.*



I don't think there is any need to suppress it as long as the discussion is tactical as you say, with the occasional drift. I am the one who began the drift by only responding to the part of your post that had to do with police work in general; the "politics" comment was directed at _my_ post that moved us in that direction.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> Maybe, I hope you don't think so from me. I'm not headed that way at all. If from Arnisador, can I place a [shrug] here without drawing upon wrath?
> *



I'm not looking for wrath--can I not disagree with you on this issue? If indeed we do disagree; it appears that what I took from your post was not what you had meant. This will continue to happen in a written medium.



> *
> I have no idea really. I don't support gun control at all. *



Nor do I. It's unconstitutional and un-American. People must be allowed to exercise their right to bear arms _if they desire to do so_.

Personally, I've been saying for years that I'd like to have a firearm around the house for emergencies (despite the fact that we have kids) but have never done it, in part because I fear I lack the time to get proper training. I do not have much experience with a pistol and am philosophically opposed (like most of us here) to wielding a weapon I do not know how to use.

By emergencies, I imagine civil emergencies--I can't see locating and unlocking and loading the weapon during a burglary. I'm thinking lengthy massive power outages and resulting unrest.


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I'm not looking for wrath--can I not disagree with you on this issue? If indeed we do disagree; it appears that what I took from your post was not what you had meant. This will continue to happen in a written medium.*



Good! I'm sticking my toes in the water of the pool to test the temperature. You have no idea where you are going until you get there sometimes!

I just did not want to see it shut down.



> *Nor do I. It's unconstitutional and un-American. People must be allowed to exercise their right to bear arms if they desire to do so.*



Agreed. 



> *Personally, I've been saying for years that I'd like to have a firearm around the house for emergencies (despite the fact that we have kids) but have never done it, in part because I fear I lack the time to get proper training. I do not have much experience with a pistol and am philosophically opposed (like most of us here) to wielding a weapon I do not know how to use.*



That's very logical and incredibly mature and responsible and you are right on the money. You never want to have something in the house to avert a tragedy just to have it cause one. Agreed. Very mature outlook.



> *By emergencies, I imagine civil emergencies--I can't see locating and unlocking and loading the weapon during a burglary. I'm thinking lengthy massive power outages and resulting unrest.*



It has to be a pattern of behavior coupled with teaching the children as well. It has to do with whatever media your kids watch, it has to do with so many things. Having any firearm around children is an awesome responsibility to be sure.


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## Bob

Just for general knowledge, Massad Ayoob has some good tapes on guns and home defense. Basically, he outlines strategies that place safety of neighbors and family memebers as primary importance..... 
 Bob


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## DWright

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> 
> 
> (It has to be a pattern of behavior coupled with teaching the children as well. It has to do with whatever media your kids watch, it has to do with so many things. Having any firearm around children is an awesome responsibility to be sure. )
> 
> My husband and I are both gun collectors, and weapons enthusiasts.  My children are taught gun safety not only when the guns are out, but just in daily life.  What they see on TV sparks conversations, as does any stick or knife practice.
> 
> A stick or a knife is just as deadly in the right hands as a firearm.
> 
> As for police self defense:  when I went to the police academy, (many years back)  we were given 16 hours of hand to hand combat, and 40 hours of handgun safety classes, followed by 30 hours on the rang.   Drawing a firearm is rare in most departments, but self defense is used regularly.
> 
> If anyone is familiar with Loren Christensen he has written on the topic many times.  He is also a Portland Police Officer, and an accomplished martial artist.*


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> *A stick or a knife is just as deadly in the right hands as a firearm.*



Yes, though I think a firearm is also deadly in the _wrong_ (i.e. untrained) hands, which is less so of a knife and even less so of a stick. All can be deadly even in untrained hands but a firearm has range and power and ease of use the others can't match. There's also the psychological difference between having to stab someone who's up close and shooting someone who is 30 feet away.

I am reminded of a line from the sitcom _All in the Family_:

*Gloria*: Daddy, 300 people in this city were killed last year by hanguns!

*Archie*: Would it make you feel any better, little girl, if they was pushed outta windows?

(This is quoted from memory.)


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## DWright

The "All in the Family" quote is exactly my point.  No matter the means the outcome is the same.

Your right about the psychological aspect of fighting with a knife.  You have to be pretty close.  However, in the many homicides I have had to investigate, I had to swab the victim for gun powder residue.   Most untrained gun users do not obey the proper distance rules either.

Practice firearm disarms too!


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> *Your right about the psychological aspect of fighting with a knife.  You have to be pretty close.  However, in the many homicides I have had to investigate, I had to swab the victim for gun powder residue.   Most untrained gun users do not obey the proper distance rules either.
> 
> Practice firearm disarms too! *



Yes, it's surprising how often people will miss even from close distances (not that one would want to bet on it of course). An untrained person may get very close for any number of reasons. Still, it's emotionally easier I think to pull the trigger than to stab someone.


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## DWright

Arnisador, 

I think your right  about  it being emotionally easier to pull the trigger.  No matter how close to an opponent it only  takes  "about"  7 pounds of pressure to fire a handgun.  It takes substantially more effort to fatally wound someone with a knife.  (Making an assumption that the untrained person is going to stab at random, and not go for vital targets.)


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Don Rearic
> My husband and I are both gun collectors, and weapons enthusiasts. My children are taught gun safety not only when the guns are out, but just in daily life. What they see on TV sparks conversations, as does any stick or knife practice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> I think that is the way to go, honestly. Not only is it Traditional, it is American. It is _safer_ that way. I think Gun Control Advocates, in their blind hatred of firearms, do the kids a great disservice when they recommend that the children of gun owners never be "around" the guns. You make the guns a symbolic item of curiousity then. Curiousity does not only kill cats.
> 
> What they are trying to do is raise up a generation of kids who have not been exposed to firearms and will not like them nearly so much. They consider this, "attacking the culture of violence in America." It is social engineering, another area entirely.
> 
> But it is great that you do that and proper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A stick or a knife is just as deadly in the right hands as a firearm.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, all depends on who shows up for the dance, or, if they have raw power or they are EDPs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *As for police self defense:  when I went to the police academy, (many years back)  we were given 16 hours of hand to hand combat, and 40 hours of handgun safety classes, followed by 30 hours on the rang. Drawing a firearm is rare in most departments, but self defense is used regularly.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's very true. It costs roughly about $50,000.00 to put a new Officer on the street, this varies from area to area. [Source was the Congressional Debate over the 1994 Crime Bill which became the Omnibus Crime Act/1994] And I would like to see the firearms time increased to 80 hours [2 standard 40 hour work week equivalents, don't we owe recruits and the people they serve THAT for what they might be called upon to do?] and at least an equal amount of time in all facets of Hand to Hand. And have In-Service Training be more than "lip service."
> 
> I think it would be great if there was a requirement, with a Program to handle it, that would allow, possibly demand, an Officer to simply go to the range once per month. Even if it is just for 30 minutes, to expend 1, 2 or possibly 3 magazines of ammunition out of their weapon.
> 
> It would be great if there was an on-going Program for Unarmed Combatives as well. But I would not hold my breath waiting for that.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bob

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> 
> I think that is the way to go, honestly. Not only is it Traditional, it is American. It is safer that way. I think Gun Control Advocates, in their blind hatred of firearms, do the kids a great disservice when they recommend that the children of gun owners never be "around" the guns. You make the guns a symbolic item of curiousity then. Curiousity does not only kill cats.
> 
> *



A friend of mine who is the Chief of a department told me that when his first son was old enough to show an interest in guns, he never denied showing his son and educating him about firearms. He told me that after a while his son was no longer fasinated with his gun. So overall I think that as parents, uncles and aunts we should nurture the curiosity constructively and safely pretty soon they will not be so fasinated with the fantasy and hype they see on TV, and become more in touch with the reality. I did the same thing with my oldest nephew and knives. I showed him a variety of knives and how to handle them safely. I especially emphasized the dangers of butterfly knifes because from experience it has shown to be the one knife that kids tend to be so fasinated with.......


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *I think Gun Control Advocates, in their blind hatred of firearms*



That's certainly demonizing the opposition, don't you think? I don't believe in gun control either but I see people who see the large number of deaths caused by guns and want to do something about it. I suspect any hatred of firearms is secondary to a hatred of needless (in many cases) deaths. I don't think they have the right approach for dealing with it when all things are considered but ascribing to them such simplistic motivations is, amongst other things, underestimating the opponent.

I prefer to think that we agree on the problem but not on the solution.



> *
> I think it would be great if there was a requirement, with a Program to handle it, that would allow, possibly demand, an Officer to simply go to the range once per month. Even if it is just for 30 minutes, to expend 1, 2 or possibly 3 magazines of ammunition out of their weapon.
> 
> It would be great if there was an on-going Program for Unarmed Combatives as well. But I would not hold my breath waiting for that. *



I agree. But unlike many (not all) military units that are allowed to do nothing but train, we need police on the streets. If you assume a 40-hour work week and make a 1/2 hour per four weeks requirement then you either have to say "it's on your own time--deal with it" or accept that every cop is spending 1/2 hour less on the streets out of every 160 hours (maybe more if you include preparation time/time reaching the facility). For a large city with hundreds or thousands of officers and a goal of so many officers on the street at any given time, that's a measurable cost in extra officers that must be hired; for a small one it still has an effect.

For example, I think NYC still has more officers than the Coast Guard has uniformed personnel; think of the cost in covering those beats, ammunition, etc. I'm not disagreeing with you that this would be nice if resources were plentiful but all these mandates have costs. Similarly for CQC training which I expect woul dbe more useful for the officer, though the officer's marksmanship skills are perhaps more important for the citizenry (which might be affected by errant bullets).


----------



## knifeman.dk

Can anyone help me find Dan Inosantos video "surviving edged weapons" in PAL format.
Great discussions, i learn a lot!:asian:


----------



## Bob

> _Originally posted by knifeman.dk _
> *Can anyone help me find Dan Inosantos video "surviving edged weapons" in PAL format.
> Great discussions, i learn a lot!:asian: *



I am sorry, but what is "PAL" format????


----------



## Bob Hubbard

A European video format.  In the US, our vids are in NTSC (I believe) while in Europe, they are in PAL.  Has something to do with the signal rate of the video (50htz vs 60htz) I think.

Perhaps someone else can give a little more info?


----------



## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *That's certainly demonizing the opposition, don't you think?*



Indeed, it is _to a degree._ To what degree is acceptable to anyone is intensely personal.

Let me try to explain this without making it destructively political, which is a road we don't want to go down...

I have to feel personally insulted, to a degree, by some of the vitriolic rhetoric spoken by some in that [Antigun] Community.

Because I am a Gun Owner, and even worse, an NRA Member, I am the "source" and the root "cause" of much of the "gun violence" in this country...so say some. Demonizing has a place. Who is correct? 

Would it be more correct to say that a majority of Antigun people have a "blind hatred of firearms" or that I, and others like me, are responsible and accountable for the carnage on the streets?

Please understand something...everything has its place. Yin and Yang, light and dark.

Since I am in no way responsible for the carnage on the streets, I do feel insulted by that when I hear that. The NRA, as a side issue, is not a faceless, monolithic monstrosity, it is made up of good people, so, when they demonize that, they demonize good people and they do it so often and above and beyond what I have said, I don't think I have even have to defend it or speak up to it even more.

More from your next quote which will clarify this further.



> *I don't believe in gun control either but I see people who see the large number of deaths caused by guns and want to do something about it. I suspect any hatred of firearms is secondary to a hatred of needless (in many cases) deaths.*



I would divide them into camps, actually.

1. Some do have a blind hatred of firearms because they blame inanimate objects for the acts of human beings.

2. Some, as you suggest, hate them but hate the carnage, the hatred of the gun is secondary. But it is still lacking in logic and is purely emotional in nature.

3. Some Gun Control Advocates do not hate guns, they hate guns they do not control.

Like I said, without typing up a couple thousand words [which I could do and have done before but I don't like to do it here as it is clearly not welcome here] I have to leave it at that.

I think the "opposition" you speak of, meaning Gun Control Advocates, have done more than their fair share of demonizing people like me. In other words, what I wrote is in fact true in many cases, but not nearly so hostile as some of the words that come from said "Opposition."

One example and only one.

Rosie O'Donnell. She clearly stated that people who own guns should be in prison. She clearly stated she does not care if they have a "right" to them. That's fairly "hate filled." That's blind hatred, to a fault.

Interestingly enough, she got aced in the media as a hypocrite some time after the smoke cleared when she ambushed Tom Selleck on her Show. He was merely there to plug his Flick, she assaulted him for being an NRA Member.

The interesting part was, her Bodyguard applied for a Concealed Carry Permit in Connecticut, where she lived at the time.

Citing the safety of her child[ren] going back and forth to school, etc., she WAS justified in wanting armed protection. 

_The only problem is, she does not think YOU or I should have that same right._

Futhermore, that would have been breaking the Law for her Bodyguard to be on school property, even an "Official" parking area of the school with a firearm. That is reserved only for Police Officers and other Law Enforcement Personnel. In other words, she fully intended on breaking a Law she supported to protect *her* child[ren].

And we know her Bodyguard was not a Police Officer because if he had been, he would have never had to apply for the Permit, he could have carried with the Badge and Work I.D. after being cleared for Off-Duty Employment in Executive Protection.

So, in the final analysis, what I said is mild and tame compared to the audacity and hatred of some. In fact, I did not even state it with malice as they so often do.



> *Similarly for CQC training which I expect woul dbe more useful for the officer, though the officer's marksmanship skills are perhaps more important for the citizenry (which might be affected by errant bullets).*



Your points are duly noted and I agree with them. The question becomes, how can we do better?

Let me put some mandatory knife content in here that coincides with the "blind hatred of guns" comments. That way, this all means something and does not just become, "another gun control rant."

We see the same exact fear, loathing and...hatred, for knives.

If we examine knives, we see that most of the legislation that has been passed with regard to them is based on fear, ignorance and hatred. People tend to _hate_ what they _fear._

Balisongs are illegal to carry in almost every State. Oregon is Balisong and Switchblade friendly, but they cannot be carried concealed. Open carry of both is perfectly fine. [I have a source if you do not believe this, Oregon liberalized their Switchblade Laws a few years ago. The State Law against them was struck down as being vague, Benchmade has made Switchblades in Oregon for quite some time because of this.]

Why is the Balisong [Butterfly Knife] illegal in most places? Some places you cannot even collect them, simple possession in the home is illegal.

Because of fear, the fear breeding a hatred for this inanimate object. Why? Because it can be flashy, because it has some audio cues [click-clack] that people find to be menacing along with the flash of metallic handles and steel blade...

Same-same with a Switchblade, since 1958, they have been tightly controlled. They were unable to ban them outright, so they put it through the Commerce Laws and controlled Interstate Commerce of them. 

Why? Audio cue with flashing steel. Same thing with firearms really, some gangs embraced them because they were flashy and fancy, so instead of addressing the problem, they addressed an inanimate object.

It is _Symbolism over Substance_ which by its very nature is emotional and illogical, agreed? They really did nothing to the gangs that embraced the Switchblade [Auto] Knife other than make it even more _desirable_ to have one! It was then the _Forbidden Fruit._

We see this dynamic constantly. People...without a thought, every day, pick up a knife which kills more people in a year or two in this country than Switchblades and Balisongs ever have. That every day knife being a simple kitchen knife.

Ask Police Officers what people are killed with in the vast majority of cases. Kitchen Knives, screwdrivers and all sorts of razor knives...there are many different types of those knives. 

In fact, we spoke of Calibre Press' "Surviving Edged Weapons" material before. They cited back in 1988 or 1989 when that was produced that the screwdriver is basically accepted as the #2 Weapon in the "Edged Weapons Category" in The United States when it comes to E.W. Attacks...

Yet, all of this legislation over the years centers around things people fear and/or hate. It is counterproductive, as a Society, to address cosmetics and not the reality of the situation and that is the point I wish to make with my comments.

In the words of David B. Kopel, who has forgotten more about the wiley ways of Gun Control Advocates than we are likely to ever know...

"Substituting gun homicides with knife homicides is not my idea of progress..."

There is ample reason to believe that the knife will overtake the firearm in the hands of criminals if guns are ever banned. In fact, in every year except one, between 1976 and 1994 [I have to look at the numbers again and I can post them] anything you can place in the edged weapons category were used more often than long guns...rifles and shotguns. In every year except one. Those are fatalities, not merely assaults.

Interesting conversation.


----------



## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by knifeman.dk _
> *Can anyone help me find Dan Inosantos video "surviving edged weapons" in PAL format.
> 
> Great discussions, i learn a lot!*



If you use Google, my favorite Search Engine at www.google.com you can type in "Surviving Edged Weapons PAL" and you should be able to find it if it is available.

Just remember, although it features Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje and Guro Dan Inosanto, it is actually a Law Enforcement Training Video produced by Calibre Press...

Good luck, it is basically _counter_knife but we all need those skills as well.


----------



## Bob

Awesome post Mr.Rearic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you summed it all up when you just mention "Rosie's" name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your are right, "Very interesting conversation"

I am intrigued!!!!!!!
Bob


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## Don Rearic

Thanks Brother Bob.

Here is what I was speaking of earlier, just a few minutes ago. 

This is the absolutely ungodly amount of people that have perished in this country. 

It was from 1976 up to 1998.

In only one year were more people killed where a rifle or shotgun [long gun] was the weapon, than where something that could be placed in the edged weapons/knife category. One, single...year.

What this means is this, it is not placed here to argue for the banning of knives. I'm not a crusading banner!

No, it is merely to point out that we have a problem and the problem will continue on without properly addressing the problem. It's like placing a Band-Aid on your carotid, it won't work well...

The Source.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> Please understand something...everything has its place. Yin and Yang, light and dark.
> *



We are as you note at danger of wandering well off topic so I will confine my reply to this one point: The concept of Yin and Yang means that there is some of each _in everything_. There is softness in stone, to cite a common example, and there is good and bad (potentially, at least) in each person. So I would say that while ascribing ill motives to the advocates of gun control it is wise to also recall that they probably have or started with some good motives too. There is always some of each.

The comment about not replacing gun deaths with knife deaths is dead-on and part of why gun control would not by itself solve the problem. I was not aware that Oregon, or anywhere, made switchblades legal but Oregon is often out in front on these sorts of things--assisted suicide, practice rights of chiropractors and naturopaths, and so on.


----------



## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *We are as you note at danger of wandering well off topic so I will confine my reply to this one point: The concept of Yin and Yang means that there is some of each in everything. There is softness in stone, to cite a common example, and there is good and bad (potentially, at least) in each person. So I would say that while ascribing ill motives to the advocates of gun control it is wise to also recall that they probably have or started with some good motives too. There is always some of each.*



I always try to make my observations based on facts. Also, I desperately attempt to not paint with a broad brush, even if others do. The basic thing I wanted to get across to you and possibly others was, re: demonization. To simply point out that what I said is mild and tame, it pales in comparison to the other Camp. That's all. I think even you could agree with that if you have seen a good deal of the material they have published and you might see on the nightly news.

That's all. Just addressing the demonization angle and in order to do that, there _had_ to be that inevitable drift. But we brought it back by applying it knives. And it is directly applicable and hopefully will give people a greater insight into things.



> *The comment about not replacing gun deaths with knife deaths is dead-on and part of why gun control would not by itself solve the problem.*



Indeed...if you examine British Law as it now stands, lotsa people getting shot, lotsa people getting knifed. Knifings being _historical_ in Great Britain. Now, we see Australia making the drift, first the guns, then came the knives in most areas. But it is not stopping anything because all of the violence that is driving it, that has not been addressed.

It is, in fact, illegal to carry a pocketknife in Britain now unless you can *prove* your work requires it and even then, you may still be arrested and you may still, again...a fact, be imprisoned. I could cite a case where a man proved to a Judge that he did in fact require a couple different types of knives for cutting ties, etc., in his work and the Judge said something like: "Even though you have to have these things to work, that has to be weighed with the societal fear of people carrying knives around in public and the only punishment I can see in your case is to deprive you of your liberty..."  

I mean, that is not a direct quote, but I guarantee you when I dig it up, it is going to be very close indeed. I mean, what's up with that? What Justice is that? The Judge more or less stated that the man fit the exemption in the law but he was going to punish him _anyway_ and this, in a very real way, has to do with fear and hatred.

Don't mean to write a book about it! I just want people to _know._ 



> *I was not aware that Oregon, or anywhere, made switchblades legal but Oregon is often out in front on these sorts of things--assisted suicide, practice rights of chiropractors and naturopaths, and so on.*



Up until last year, Switchblades were entirely legal in Florida as well, with the stroke of a pen, a Judge that did not like Switchblades made them illegal by interpreting [incorrectly] that they were banned under the Ballistic Knife Law. A Ballistic Knife being a _Projectile Edged Weapon._

Some States allow Switchblades to be owned in the home, completely legal if you wish to collect them, etc. A couple States, it is OK to have them concealed if you have a Handgun Permit, a couple open carry is OK. It varies.

Some of them, they are treated with all of the fear of a mini-nuke. [joke-hyperbole, maybe not!]

Same thing with Balisongs and a lot of other knives as well.

What I want more than anything is for this to be an informative and interesting exchange and although it might drift at times from the intent of the _Forum,_ I basically asked by starting this thread, _"What is your view?"_

And you know what? I'm getting it! I like the exchange and hope it continues.

Thanks,

Don


----------



## Bob

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *A European video format.  In the US, our vids are in NTSC (I believe) while in Europe, they are in PAL.  Has something to do with the signal rate of the video (50htz vs 60htz) I think.
> 
> Perhaps someone else can give a little more info? *



Thanks Kaith


----------



## Bob

Might be a little of the topic, but does involve knives. Switzerland is allowing knives back into their airports because after Sept 11, the Swiss Army knive industry start to take a down slide. They think this will help their sales........ I guess what I am trying to say that the issue of weapons is a multi sided monster which will probably never be solved, but it doesn't hurt to have the best weapon of them all and that is knowledge. 
I would also like to bring up a point about gun control and anti gun associations, if they win the battle and take away guns where will it stop?? Next they will go after our knives and we become like Britian. Is it not feasible to think they will go after our martial arts in one way or another? 
Just a thought
Bob


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *I would also like to bring up a point about gun control and anti gun associations, if they win the battle and take away guns where will it stop?? Next they will go after our knives and we become like Britian. Is it not feasible to think they will go after our martial arts in one way or another?
> 
> Just a thought
> 
> Bob*



They have already made serious attempts at touching the Martial Arts World. It is important. Very important.

You will never see my posting to a Bulletin Board about fixing a Vintage, tasty-smooth, Harley Panhead. You will never see me posting about Neurosurgery.

This stuff, I know about. I've been into this stuff since the age of nine.

When I was a teenager, the ABC "News Magazine, 20/20" did a special on Martial Arts Weapons and the ready availability of same through Mail Order.

It can touch us. We dodged a bullet, will we dodge the next one?

The Source.

Here is one British Police Website, only one thing I hinted at earlier.

British Police Website.


----------



## Don Rearic

If you click on the link provided, you will see "The Slippery Slope."

Scroll down to Section VIII to see, "The Campaign Against Self-Defense."

Here is what I posted about earlier with the knife in Britain:



> From the Slippery Slope Article:
> *No prosecution for defending oneself is too absurd. Consider a report from the Evening Standard newspaper in London, dated October 31, 1996:
> A man who uses a knife as a tool of his trade was jailed today after police found him carrying three of them in his car. Dean Payne, 26, is the first person to be jailed under a new law making the carrying of a knife punishable by imprisonment. Payne told ... magistrates that he had to provide his own knife for his job cutting straps around newspaper bundles at the distribution plant where he works .... Police found the three knives--a lock knife, a small printer's knife, and a Stanley knife--in a routine search of his car.... The court agreed he had no intention of using the knives for "offensive" purposes but jailed him for two weeks anyway.(p.437)....[The magistrate said] "I have to view your conduct in light of the great public fear of people going around with knives...I consider the only proper punishment is one depriving you of your liberty."*




The Source.

It all matters and it is all incredibly important to us all.

Thanks,

Don


----------



## IFAJKD

This is a part I have been trying to stay out of but here I am...I never learn. Many strong opinions on this...Guns, specifically hand guns towards human beings...I think the point someone made about missing is very important. While I would not want to bet my life on it I would prepare for the strong possibility that there would be a miss. 
So many things change here. Many gun fights between FBI (most stat keepers) and bad guys have resulted in an embarrasingly large amount of rounds all missing their intended target.

1) stress
2) perception
3) sense of time
4) depth perception
5) stillness
6) flinching
7) closing their eyes when pulling the trigger
8) unpreparedness to really shoot
9) self preservation
10) lack of training

these things all go into an altercation that can result in "botched"
Guns are not more effective in my opinion than knives though the intimacy isn't there as it is with a knife. Guns are just another tool. People who have gotton bed these 10 things will be as dangerous with a blade as with a knife. It's moot. Untimately, it's in the hands of it's user is it not. 
I just want to train and watch my backyard and that of my family and friends. To that end I will do everything I have to. Our country has to have it's Hot Topics for people to chomp on. Guns, drugs, weapons in general, Martial Art Instructors etc. It always will. I think these things just are. 
Given a choice of what to use...I prefer a knife but I use a handgun well too. This is how I want to keep it for me...
Given a choice of injury or attack, er a hand gun over a knife. Hand gun has one angle and frequent misses, Knives have many angles and difficult wounds (cuts) to treat. 
Hell they are both bad.


----------



## Bob

Keeping in the spirit of reality preparness training inside the schools,
Do any of you instructors out there who train knive fighting, set up scenerios or drills that increase the fatigue and stress factors of the student, for example blind folding the student etc. etc.

B


----------



## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *So many things change here. Many gun fights between FBI (most stat keepers) and bad guys have resulted in an embarrasingly large amount of rounds all missing their intended target.*



Yes, indeed they do! And we can learn alot from various things that have been learned. Such as:

Most gunfights [exchanges] occur at 21 feet or less. [That number "21" is a magical thing, isn't it? We see that in the Knife V. Firearm situation]

Of those gunfights, most happen at a distance of less than 10 feet. Ten feet down to contact range.

Most occur in low to extremely low levels of light.

Just these three things mean this, the Edged Weapon, in ALOT of cases, is going to be as viable as a Handgun in Trained Hands. You do have to know more than a bladed art. You have to choose the right equipment and you have to do one, incredibly important thing.

Learn and practice to draw under many different situations and scenarios. Same as a Handgun.



> *Guns are not more effective in my opinion than knives though the intimacy isn't there as it is with a knife.*



I would say that according to the stats, the knife has the capability in, again, Trained Hands, to be every bit as lethal as a Handgun. We agree more than we disagree.

Yet, to say that "Guns are not more effective [in my opinion] than knives" has to also be placed in the proper context. 

Yes and no.

If we talk about being raped or robbed, indeed, no one rapes or robs from across a street, the knife is viable in Trained Hands.

If we change the scenario to a parking lot where you might have multiple attackers, it is bad enough with a Handgun, but if the opponent should have a Handgun, or one of his "Associates" should that is waiting in the wings and you just sliced his Pal up, you're in deep...possibly over your head.

It is a distance weapon. There is always a place for that. Your Wife walks ahead of you with your child and some groceries, she rounds the corner to go into the house and the house has been burglarized, the burglars come out...you bring up the rear...you see what I mean?

And these things do in fact happen in the real world. They have happened before, they happened yesterday, today and they will happen tomorrow. If you are going to have a handgun and Carry Permit, you should train with these things in mind.

I think it is entirely situational, but I will tell you this, there are times when only an edged weapon will do and even if I were carrying a handgun on a Permit, I would still carry edged weapons. 



> *Guns are just another tool...
> 
> ...Untimately, it's in the hands of it's user is it not.*



That's Gospel for the most part.



> *Given a choice of injury or attack, er a hand gun over a knife. Hand gun has one angle and frequent misses, Knives have many angles and difficult wounds (cuts) to treat.
> Hell they are both bad.*



Yes, the handgun needs the steady platform to be effective and the knife and stick are the exact opposite. That's why a handgun, as long as you get by the first shot, is going to be easier to disarm than someone flinging a piece of razor sharp steel at you.

As for the wounds, that is entirely situational. I hate to disagree, if you lose alot of blood and you are in shock, you're in deep trouble, period.

But as far as the exact complications of the wounds? No way...

You get cut across the hand good, you better believe you might need an Orthopedic Surgeon to put your hand back together to the point you can use it again!

You put a bullet through that hand and that bone becomes many secondary missiles, ripping and tearing through...it is MUCH more complicated any time bone is involved and let's face it, if the only gunshot wounds that existed were "through and throughs" penetrating only soft tissue with no bone and organ damage, hell, they would not be nearly so deadly and the knife would be the undisputed King of the Heap.

That is not the case.


----------



## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *Keeping in the spirit of reality preparness training inside the schools,
> Do any of you instructors out there who train knive fighting, set up scenerios or drills that increase the fatigue and stress factors of the student, for example blind folding the student etc. etc.
> 
> B *



I use a pair of DeSantis [Holster Company] Low Light Simulator Goggles during alot of training. I've also used Safety Goggles smeared with a film of toothpaste. If you've ever been finger jabbed in the eye, you'll know why. 

One good thing to try is take a dumbell, the weight being in the moderate range, don't do a set number of curls, mix it up, biceps, triceps, etc., and just do it until you cannot do it anymore, fatigued.

That's *Gross Motor Skill*.

Now, access, pull, open, the full drawing motion, then simply do a #1 Cut.

That's *Fine Motor Skill*.

Try it, you'll like it! Well, maybe not at first, but you will see the value of it.


----------



## Bob

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> 
> One good thing to try is take a dumbell, the weight being in the moderate range, don't do a set number of curls, mix it up, biceps, triceps, etc., and just do it until you cannot do it anymore, fatigued.
> 
> That's Gross Motor Skill.
> 
> Now, access, pull, open, the full drawing motion, then simply do a #1 Cut.
> 
> That's Fine Motor Skill.
> 
> Try it, you'll like it! Well, maybe not at first, but you will see the value of it. *



That is a great idea!!!!!!!!!! I have probably experienced that but not on purpose. I will have to try incorporating this idea...


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## Don Rearic

Bob,

I'm a thief! I was watching this Documentary on The Discovery Channel about four years ago or so...it was on SEAL Teams [I can hear the groans, I'm not a wannabe, I wanted to see if they had any H2H in it and plus, hey, the way they abuse those short M60s lights my fire! Man...ABUSE!].

So, this one SEAL, he goes to the ground and has the MP5 slung across his back [Standard H&K 3-point sling] and he does a rapid set of push-ups...

Up off the ground he comes, pulls the MP5 from the back, around his body, engages targets while walking toward them, the MP5 hangs free in front with that sling, he just let's go and it's there, he draws the handgun, pop, pop, pop...

So, Don starts to thinking..._Hahahaha!_ 

"Hey, gross to fine motor skills, this is good stuff..."

So, I started working on things like that and you have to focus when the mind is clouded on the street, you might be shaky. 

Hell, if you have to pull down, you might be out of breath and more than a little shaky because the way the laws are now, you're better off trying to get the hell out of there! But if you're not Bruce Jenner, trouble might catch up with you. [I'm only half-joking here...]

The most skilled and deadly man with a knife, you do not attack him in his own kitchen when he is cutting meat. But if that same man is out in the street and he has a knife on him but he does not practice drawing, he might not ever get a chance if someone else puts a lot of time in drawing...etc.


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## Bob

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *Bob,
> 
> [I'm a thief! I was watching this Documentary on The Discovery Channel about four years ago or so...it was on SEAL Teams]
> 
> Hey, if you're going to "borrow", you might as well borrow some good stuff!!!
> 
> [laws are now, you're better off trying to get the hell out of there]
> 
> AMEN!!! This point is sad but true. I have heard from many instructors, and law enforcement officials that it really doesn't pay to know how to defend yourself because when it all happens you should have the control and constraint to walk away because you are a train fighter.
> 
> [But if you're not Bruce Jenner, trouble might catch up with you]
> 
> This statement is so true and I can relate because I am nothing like Bruce Jenner, for those that know me on this forum they can confirm this!!!!
> 
> [But if that same man is out in the street and he has a knife on him but he does not practice drawing, he might not ever get a chance if someone else puts a lot of time in drawing...etc].
> 
> Another point I find important to suplement with drawing is training your environmental awareness. I in my humble experience, not becoming complacent in your every day life can give you that extra second needed to avoid or defend. For example, walking through your own yard and noticing certain things that have been altered, or certain things that are "out of the norm". I have seen and noticed many people who just automatically turn off their awareness as soon as they pull into their yards. I don't know where you all live but that can be a serious problem in some neighborhoods. Another example are those who get into a routine or in a hurry and park in a dark area and get focused or tunnel vision. Certain cues either audio, visual or smell can give you a heads up on how you should prepare, whether to just get back into your car, or draw your tool of choice and have it concealed or already out. This might sound paranoid to others, but it does work.
> Robert Anderson who is a very dynamic instructor here is Washington state gave a class on awareness and he suggested a couple games to play with either yourself or others. He said start out by giving yourself 10 points at the begining of the day or week, and each time something sneaks up or surprises you take away a point. Meaning, if you get so caught up in what your doing and get tunnel vision and someone walks up on you that you should have noticed then you take away points. If you play it with your partners then the goal is to catch you off guard. I am not saying going to the extreme like the relationship the Inspector from the Pink Pather movies has with his associate, but just a "got ya" type of game.  Another suggestion he had was when you walk into a room or a club with your partners, someone says go and everyone starts pointing to the nearest exist, or "safe zones" in the room.....
> So, I guess the moral to the story goes back to the point I made a couple of days ago, "action is quicker then reaction" we as law abiding citizens have to find ways to counteract this equation. And now with IFAJKD and Mr.Rearics good points we have more variable to add into the story problem....{god I hate story problems  }
> 
> Thanks for reading my rants
> Bob*


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## Don Rearic

Bob,

Nope, your rants are fine. A bunch of rants together, equals a really good picture of some knife and counterknife in this thread. Along with knife v. gun and how all of the things are related and how people are trying to control that. And control us by design.

Awareness [radar] really is something everyone needs to cultivate. That has to be adjusted to where you live. Obviously, a guy living in NYC might be a tad bit more radical in intensity and what he is carrying in the way of multiple edged weapons or whatever...

Compared to a guy who lives in rural Montana...


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## DWright

Originally posted by Don Rearic


"Awareness [radar] really is something everyone needs to cultivate. "

The levels of awareness/alertness has been published, by Caliber Press, and taught at many Street Survival Seminars.

White Level:  No/little awareness.  The person is in a place where he feels very comfortable, or a person who believes bad things only happen to the other guy. 

Yellow Level:  Where most trained people operate.  By trained I include Martial Artists, military, Police etc.  These people have trained by having someone attack them.  They are aware of their sorroundings, and who is around them.  (The trained person operates in this level, usually, whenever he/she is out of their own home.

Red Level:  Highest level of awareness.  Not fight or flight, but something has triggered a warning.  You will know when you enter this level.  This is the "hair on the back of your neck stands up" level.  You may have to respond, or it may be a false alarm.

The ideal level to operate in is yellow.  Not being afraid being aware.


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## Don Rearic

Dinnelle,

Stuff to live by. I think people need to fine tune that as well and use their eyes, ears, nose and their "6th Sense" [Gut] more though.

Calibre Press did a new twist on a very old "concept." That was standard U.S. Marine Corps Doctrine Pre-W.W. Two, The Color Code, actually. Colonel Jeff Cooper, Famous Pistolero and in General, Excellent Gun Guy, he modified that and more or less made it another standard for Citizens and Police Officers.

It remains excellent advice, however. Thanks for bringing it up!


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## Pugsly

There have been some great training ideas discussed in this thread.   Which ones work the best for the beginning  Martial Artist.


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## Cthulhu

Well, I've *just* started training with two guys from Ray Dionaldo's Filipino Combat Systems (FCS).  One of the main systems taught is Sayoc Kali, which is very blade-heavy.  The knife work I've seen is very impressive and seems to be very effective.  

In my years researching various martial arts, I've found the FMA, particularly the various systems of kali, have very good knife training skills.

However, I'd ask some of the folks here who have had more extensive training in the FMA.

Cthulhu


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## Don Rearic

Sayoc Kali always gets rave reviews from people I respect. I have to touch base with one of their Instructors soon as I was unable to attend one seminar last year I was invited to. 

They have a different "take" on Kali and it is quite refreshing and to say these guys live the knife is an understatement.


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## Chiduce

I may see this thing from a slightly different angle. The knife assualt will probably not come from the frontal position. It should be more of a slashing attack to not only get you attention, but also bring the fear of control upon you. This is the best possible time to respond because the attacker throughly believes that he/she is in control and their perception can be caught by surprise! In turn your element of surprise in this case, if you continue to counter attack until the assailant is unable to harm you will save your life! Remember, if you can see your attacker then you are subject to be fatally wounded if he/she is in control. As for the gun attack (say pistol), nowadays the gun will be held sideways for better control and less recoil back to the shooter. The frontal assualt is more likely in this case! The same understanding applies as the knife. You must counter-without notice and strike to disable the attacker and his/her ability to continue. I teach drills to enable the student to see the attack situation as it will occur on the streets. The knife and gun attack defenses are from the walk up, walk by, jog up, jog by, slashing side and rear attack, and the walk up pushing frontal assualts! The students learn to listen to themselves and hear others approaching. My sifu taught me a new kick to point score for tournament fighting. He new that i do not fight tournament, yet he new that i would understand his gesture! I listened to the incoming kick until i could hear the kick coming slowly and dodge, control, and counter. We still do not necessarily see eye to eye, but the respect for each other exists. This same principle of listening is being given to my students. We do not as of yet train with the actual metal knife but that will come as they progress! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Don Rearic

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> *The knife assualt will probably not come from the frontal position.*



In so many cases, it does come from the front. But it is very close. This is why LEO Opinions on the subject of Knife against Knife, Your Baton against a Knife and your Gun against Knife is somewhat skewed because in most cases, they respond to a call and they know there is danger and they can use range. You, on the other hand, are not responding to a call, but to A/V Cues.

I have not seen McCann & Kasper's Material on smothering draws, but I've been doing that for quite some time and look forward to seeing more info on that from them.

If you can smother the draw you see coming, you don't have to defend against the steel, you can simply start pounding on them.

Against a rear attack where the intent from the start is to kill you, there is no defense against a _[properly executed, rear attack in the form of an assassination, we're speaking about Sentry Removal Techs there...there is nothing you can do._ If you let them take your Six, you're a Goner and at their mercy.

If they intent on _threatening_ you from behind, you can act, if they intend on simply killing you, you're toast.



> *It should be more of a slashing attack to not only get you attention, but also bring the fear of control upon you. This is the best possible time to respond because the attacker throughly believes that he/she is in control and their perception can be caught by surprise! In turn your element of surprise in this case, if you continue to counter attack until the assailant is unable to harm you will save your life!*



Indeed, that is the time to spit right in their face and use sikaran and whatever objects/weapons you carry, that is the time to fog them with O.C. and take their legs out...then beat them to the ground and get out.



> *As for the gun attack (say pistol), nowadays the gun will be held sideways for better control and less recoil back to the shooter.*



It offers no more control and no less recoil. The "Gangsta Method" of holding a handgun has been adopted by knuckleheads because they watched Police shooting handguns that way from behind bullet resistant shields, the reason they are held that way in that situation is because they usually have to be held that way.

There is one method for shooting a handgun with one hand where the handgun is canted a few degrees and resembles the "Gangsta Method" but it is not, it's known as "The Cirillo Cant." This does offer alot of control and you can still have incredibly accuracy and I use it whenever I shoot one handed.

It should not be confused with tilting the handgun over sideways, however. Two different things.

The one thing you can take a small degree of comfort in is this, the "Gangsta Method" is not that accurate, if it is in your face, it won't matter...but if it is at a distance and someone is doing that...it is not that accurate. It is very "Hollywood."

The subject of gun disarming is a hairy and controversial and there are two basic ways, control and break the fingers in the trigger guard or simply break the arm down on the first strike and hopefully knocking the gun from their grasp and then pounding on them regardless of the handgun flying away or not.


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## tshadowchaser

I carrry a balisong on me mostof the time I used it as an extraction tool when I worked on ambulences. Great for cutting seat belts removeingwindshilds, etc. 
Yes , I got busted in Calif.For carring it but I dont live there any more.
I carry a folder when not carrying the balisong.
I practice opening and drawing or drawing and opening  sometimes without realiseing I am doing so.
If I am going somewhere that warrents a "show of protection" I have a belt knife witha 9 inch blade. I make darn sue the law allows me to wear that one in public.


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## arnisandyz

I carry a benchmade 42 TI most of the time.  I also have a Gerber Applegate folder I use for "utility" purposes.  Living in Florida, I am not as concerned about penatration (like through a thick winter coat) as people up north.  Down here we are more concerned about carry, a lot of shorts and bikinis!!! Many people I know carry carry lighter smaller knives like the spyderco models. Neck knives like the Livesay Woo are also very popular  for carry reasons in hot climates.


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## Turner

> 10. Do not wrap a coat around your arm. Do try to find an expedient weapon, such as a belt or a stick.



I've seen a lot of systems encourage people to do this because the coat wrapped around the arm provides a minimal (very minimal, but defended as being better than nothing) sheilding to the arm to help you block the knife. May I ask why this practice should be discouraged?

Thanks in advance..


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *
> 
> I've seen a lot of systems encourage people to do this because the coat wrapped around the arm provides a minimal (very minimal, but defended as being better than nothing) sheilding to the arm to help you block the knife. May I ask why this practice should be discouraged?
> 
> Thanks in advance.. *



Bad Hand. We have a term in our knife fighting called bad hand. If someone throws an arm up to block the knife covered or not, its usually not the arm that the person has to worry about.  If an untrained fighter wraps his arm, most likely that arm is going to come up to try and block...bad news, chances are slim against a trained knife fighter.

Now if its used as a backup behind a parry or pass for a disarm then can be effective, but you might as well use it in panyo style.

I wouldn't say not to do it, but if had a choice and the time, I'd spend the time drawing my gun, picking up a rock or a stick or running!


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> 
> *
> I wouldn't say not to do it, but if had a choice and the time, I'd spend the time drawing my gun, picking up a rock or a stick or running! *



Ah, the art of Ching-Ching Pow 

Cthulhu


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## Turner

So you mean that wrapping your hand is like telegraphing what you are going to do and gives the person with the knife the advantage. This I can see... I can also see better uses for the jacket... using it as a flexible weapon, similar to the way you'd use a belt, rope, or chain... not as good as those three, but again.. better than nothing. Or if you wanna go waaay back, use it as they did in the cloak and dagger days, a tool used for deception and confusion.


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## Bod

Don't be so harsh guys! The weapons laws here in Britain aren't so bad! Here are some of the upsides:

Although the murder rate due to knives is of course higher than guns, the overall murder rate is lower. OK so I'm probably going to have to back this up with some stats, so if I get general disagreement I'll dig around.

The gangs of muggers who do roam the streets of larger cities tend not to carry weapons, because they rarely get caught stealing, but the stop and search laws mean that if they do carry they'll probably get caught and get sent down. 

The few police who do carry fire arms and are on call to deal with firearms related incidents are HIGHLY trained.

My empty hand skills are far more useful. I don't look like a complete idiot for training, since in all likelihood I will never have a gun pulled on me - I've only ever seen 1 handgun in England and that was carried by a police officer.

Accidents happen far less often.

We may not be free to own or carry a weapon, but we are liberty to jaywalk. You win some you lose some. : )

OK so this is just one way of doing things, and Britain is far from perfect. The laws haven't rooted out evil, though over here being good or bad is seen as far less important than upholding the law. The laws are more part of our tradition, since few people had guns when the laws were introduced. It's a pity that sport pistol shooting has suffered, but the martial arts generally have not been demonised as a result of the weapons laws, though if you want to learn balisong - well you can't.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Bod _
> 
> *The gangs of muggers who do roam the streets of larger cities tend not to carry weapons, because they rarely get caught stealing, but the stop and search laws mean that if they do carry they'll probably get caught and get sent down.  *



Interesting trade-off.

The system there certainly lends itself to making martial arts training valuable. Here in the States you may well face a knife or gun which means the odds will start off stacked against you.


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