# A question and a response that puzzled me



## terryl965 (Dec 13, 2010)

Everybody on this board probaly knows me one way or another, that being said I have never really tried to insult or make anybody feel uncomfitable. That all changed today when I just ask a simple question what is your rank and where do you train, I was told that was inapprobiate to ask someone. I guess I am getting old when it is wrong to ask that question, has this ever happen to you at anytime? I guess I do not see this as a secret society when rank is involved.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Dec 13, 2010)

It seems like a fair enough question to me, but I was never one to concern myself with learning etiquette until the Grandmasters were visiting.

FWIW I've never heard of that question being taboo.


----------



## Steve (Dec 13, 2010)

That's not an innappropriate question where Martial Arts is concerned.  If someone is defensive about being asked that, I'd wonder.


----------



## Blindside (Dec 13, 2010)

I think people are used to anonymity on the internet, and somehow directly asking about individuals is perceived as being too invasive of privacy. I think most of the regulars on this board are pretty comfortable about having their identities being public, seeing as we tend to link back to our own schools and whatnot, but on some other boards I don't seek to publish my name or background.

edit: Is the question for online forums or in real life? If it is in real life I might ask rank of a prospective instructor and certainly feel comfortable asking about lineage, but as a peer to peer I don't ask, I'll figure that out on the floor.


----------



## dancingalone (Dec 13, 2010)

Terry, maybe the backlash comes from a desire to maintain anonymity rather than anything to do with rank?  The whole rank issue is probably irrelevant anyway unless the two people conversing train in the same system.


----------



## puunui (Dec 13, 2010)

There comes a point where we don't speak about rank. When I am interacting with seniors, I never ask them what their rank is, nor do they ask me. Instead, we evaluate each other by "noonchi". Low ranked people evaluate others by what rank they have; in much the same way that lower paid people judge others by how much one makes per hour. However, Doctors, business men and other highly paid professionals don't really think in those terms; how much one makes per hour becomes almost irrelevant.


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 13, 2010)

Well I will just add this, if I am at a table with other BB's I know who and what rank they are. It is called knowing what one needs to know before sitting down with people. I have been ask by so many people and I almost always say I am just a student of TKD. Rank should and does not hold alot of what a call a true Martial Artist but instead rank is what is brought and sold to sometimes the highest bidder. Like I said I have never thought that it was inapprobiate to ask and was never tought that over my years. Maybe it is just me and the people I choose to be associated with.


----------



## Empty Hands (Dec 13, 2010)

puunui said:


> However, Doctors, business men and other highly paid professionals don't really think in those terms; how much one makes per hour becomes almost irrelevant.



Clearly you don't know very many highly paid professionals.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 13, 2010)

Seems like it depends entirely on the context and situation.  If you walk up to a stranger at the bus stop who's got nothing to suggest martial arts training and ask 'em... yeah, it's a little out of line.  Someone making claims or pronouncements here on MT?  Sure, it's a reasonable question.  They can answer or not, and in as much detail as they choose.


----------



## granfire (Dec 13, 2010)

considering that many sub fractions of the arts do have the rank right there on the belt I would consider it funny not to talk about it. 

I am not forth coming with my instructor's name, but that is a matter not a secret, just not something I volunteer.(I am private and my instructor even more...)


----------



## puunui (Dec 13, 2010)

granfire said:


> considering that many sub fractions of the arts do have the rank right there on the belt I would consider it funny not to talk about it.




I can't think of a single senior or teacher for that matter that I am associated with that has stripes on their belt.  Some of their lower ranked students have stripes, but they personally don't have any.


----------



## DMcHenry (Dec 13, 2010)

Shouldn't be taboo per say, helps you understand where someone's coming from.  I can't remember the last time I asked someone their rank.  If I'm interested in their background, I tend to ask how long they've been training.  Speaking with or training with them I get a feel for their skills and abilities.  Rank is so subjective and varies so greatly from art to art, school to school.  I've never found it a good measuring stick anyway.  Experience is a better gauge.  

I was at a party full of martial artists this weekend.  I believe they mostly knew each other, I simply introduced myself as Dennis.  The host (a master in several arts) told me they were local school owners, some students.  I was never asked my rank, but I believe the host told them when introducing me. I never asked them, wasnt a need to.  We had fun, general discussions and some MA related talk, but we were all there to party and have a good time.  

May depend on the situation, some may want to remain anonymous, others dont want to sway opinions by the level (or lack of) their rank.  Keeps us all discussing on a more even playing field with everyone feeling they have an equally valid view and able to contribute.

I have known some that sure sounded extremely experienced and knowledgeable, only to find out high rank claims and being a teenager completely killed any positive opinion I had of him, especially after seeing him perform.  Rank, age and experience should coincide, but through the Internet keyboard any persona can be created to hide behind.

I don't think there's anything to be worried about.

Mac


----------



## bluewaveschool (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm open with other MA people about my rank.  My instructor I don't mention because he is no longer living.  But as to where I train, I'll tell anyone.  I don't see the taboo between MA people.


----------



## granfire (Dec 13, 2010)

puunui said:


> I can't think of a single senior or teacher for that matter that I am associated with that has stripes on their belt.  Some of their lower ranked students have stripes, but they personally don't have any.



I am puzzled by your statement.


----------



## Steve (Dec 13, 2010)

Maybe in addition to context, the style also matters.  I was a purple belt in a stand up style and was very reluctant to discuss it.  I'm very proud of my purple belt in jiu jitsu and consider it to be a real accomplishment.


----------



## puunui (Dec 13, 2010)

granfire said:


> I am puzzled by your statement.



Well, I actually asked a couple of instructors why they gave stripes on the belts of their students. They said that it was a marketing thing, that students need to feel that they are progressing and seeing stripes on their belt helps them with that. But they didn't feel the need to have stripes on their own belt.

Similarly, at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course I attended many of the participants had many patches and embroidery on their doboks, in addition to belts covered with numerous stripes and fancy embroidery. I was wearing a plain dobok. The instructor leading our course got very upset at the class and said that we looked like a bunch of children with our patch covered dobok, that starting from tomorrow, everyone needed to show up in a plain white uniform. He said that children needed all of that stuff to motivate them, but adult instructors should not. 

And so it went from there, the continual shock and horror of the class participants. You should have seen the reactions of some of my classmates when they were asked to do short narrow stances in their poomsae. This was almost ten years ago, and hopefully things have changed since then.


----------



## DMcHenry (Dec 13, 2010)

granfire said:


> I am puzzled by your statement.


 
Same with me, most all those I'm associated with no one over 3rd degree has stripes on their belts, just the 1st-3rd dans.

Mac


----------



## puunui (Dec 13, 2010)

DMcHenry said:


> Same with me, most all those I'm associated with no one over 3rd degree has stripes on their belts, just the 1st-3rd dans[/.quote]
> 
> 
> There are a lot of practitioners out there who have a lot of stripes on their belts, more than three. usually their dobok are also decked out like a christmas tree as well. I tend towards a plain patchless uniform. I have my name embroidered on one side of my belt in hangul and the name of my school and association in hangul on the other. but i don't have any stripes embroidered on my belt and none of my dan holder students do either.
> ...


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 13, 2010)

puunui said:


> DMcHenry said:
> 
> 
> > Same with me, most all those I'm associated with no one over 3rd degree has stripes on their belts, just the 1st-3rd dans[/.quote]
> ...


----------



## Cirdan (Dec 14, 2010)

If someone is interested in where and how I train, I will be happy to inform them. When someone ask about rank it is often those things they really want to know about.


----------



## StudentCarl (Dec 14, 2010)

It all sounds like a lot of ego to me, defensive and insecure. We're all students. I've been around long enough to believe that rank is often more of a general measure of experience and perseverence than a strict measure of skill. I do like to know someone's rank, but I also like to know their age. I'm a completely different red belt at 47 than I was at 17. The fact that I'm a red belt means there are some things you black belts know that I don't. That doesn't make me less of an athlete, student, or person--just less knowledgeable and less experienced. I'm pleased to be outranked by so many--it means I have many teachers handy (something else good about this forum).


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 14, 2010)

You never nknow what a reaction might be. Twin Fist ripped me up down and sideways and I think he's still pissed at me because I suggested that he ask his instructor(s) a question.

BTW Twin Fist, I respect your point of view. I just don't agree with it.  Believe it or not folks, on internet boards and in life people can respectfuly agree to disagree. 

Anyway, I think when it comes to questioning rank / experience on the boards it has a multi pronged result. 
First, someone's thoughts and ideas should be evaluated irrespective of their rank and experience. 
Secondly, simply questioning rank / experience without independant evaluation of the idea is easily seen as a knock. 
Third, even if someone tells you their rank and experience, what have you really leanred?
Was rank handed out like candy? A thrid dan ten year old?
Do they have 20 years of experience, or the same experience for 20 years?


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2010)

All I am saying is a question regarding rank should not be the end to all. If someone get insulted by a simple question what happens when someone ask that same person about a certain tech. they are showing? Experience is better then rank and I only ask because I really want to know you I am dealing with, everybody here knows those instructor that throw out I am  one of the highest American rank in TKD in the United States. Well sine the turn of this century we have had over 400 people get to 7 or higher with the KKW and they are American so to say I am only one of a few please. Just in my area of DFW I know of 36 people with that rank or higher and that is not the entire state. My asking is not to degrade anybody but to try and figure out who and what they might or should know.


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 14, 2010)

Terry,

All you needed to do when the guy got insulted was hand him a crow bar with instructions on how he could pry the stick out of his @$$.  :whip1:

Unfortunately many people equate experience with rank.  Some people may not have a lot of self confidence about themselves will be offended if you ask them what their rank is, thinking they will not be taken seriously if they have a lower rank.

Glenn is correct about noonchi.  When I first met Pres. Lee of the USTC, I sat with him and several high ranking GM's.  We had a great conversation about TKD and life.   During that whole time only one of them asked me about my rank in a private conversation.  All the others, including Pres. Lee, never had the topic brought up. 

My favorite part was my wife drinking and becoming friends with GM Mayes, before I even knew who GM Mayes was.  ha.ha.ha. 

So don't take it too personally Terry.  Just smile.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

If you are going to have rank, be expected to be asked about it.  If you are going to make statements on an internet forum, you can expect to be asked about your rank in the art at some point.  

On the web, some people maintain their anonymity for personal protection.  That is perfectly reasonable.  "I'll tell you via PM" is a perfectly reasonable response.

Some, however, simply do so because it shields them from having to fess up about who they are and what their actual level of training it.  They like to make outlandish statements and they know that if their actual rank and identity were known, they would not be given any consideration.

Then there are those that are trolling for some reason and who don't want you to know who they are because they have an ulterior motivation.  

Then you have some people that get upset just to get upset.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> Well, I actually asked a couple of instructors why they gave stripes on the belts of their students. They said that it was a marketing thing, that students need to feel that they are progressing and seeing stripes on their belt helps them with that.


Pretty much.

Personally, I prefer a stripless belt and a fairly unadorned dobok.  Association patch, American and Korean flags, and *maybe* a school logo on the back are as far as is necessary.  

My taekwondo dobok has just the association patch to the left of the collar, a Korean flag on the left arm and an American flag on the right.  My hapkido dobok is unadorned.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Personally, I prefer a stripless belt and a fairly unadorned dobok. Association patch, American and Korean flags, and *maybe* a school logo on the back are as far as is necessary.
> 
> ...


 
My TKD uniform has a Korean flag on one arm, American flag on the other arm and a Jidokwan patch on the front.  My karate uniform as our organization patch and school patch on one arm.  We do have our names embroided on the front of the uniform, so the parents know who we are. 

My belt is stripeless.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> You never nknow what a reaction might be. Twin Fist ripped me up down and sideways and I think he's still pissed at me because I suggested that he ask his instructor(s) a question.
> 
> BTW Twin Fist, I respect your point of view. I just don't agree with it.  Believe it or not folks, on internet boards and in life people can respectfuly agree to disagree.
> 
> ...


That's a different thing entirely, though...

Telling someone of some experience "go ask your teacher about..." can certainly come across as more than a little patronizing, no?


----------



## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well sine the turn of this century we have had over 400 people get to 7 or higher with the KKW and they are American so to say I am only one of a few please. Just in my area of DFW I know of 36 people with that rank or higher and that is not the entire state.




Where did you get your information from? Because according to the Kukkiwon, as of October 1997, there were 55 7th Dan, 21 8th Dan and 15 9th Dan certified by the Kukkiwon in the United States. I have the names of all of them too, so if you wish to post a list, I can tell you what their Kukkiwon rank is as of October 1997, if they were Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher at that time.


----------



## granfire (Dec 14, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> That's a different thing entirely, though...
> 
> Telling someone of some experience "go ask your teacher about..." can certainly come across as more than a little patronizing, no?




Depends on the question to be asked?
I mean, if you trust the teacher enough to pay him money for his expertise, one should assume that he/she can answer most or all questions you have as well.

It would be the logical 1st place I'd look for answers, unless I just got home from training or was out of town....


Personally I am glad I have an embroidered belt, otherwise I'd forget the rank I am supposed to have....
I also don't talk about my rank much: I got my BB in a shade under 2 years. Then I got to talking to a lady who had trained for over 7 years in the art and was preparing for grading - with a port in her chest, in the middle of chemo treatment for (or rather against) breast cancer. Certainly she assured me I earned mine, but hers is the bigger achievement! 

But seriously, couricullum is tiered according to rank, and lineage does tend to tell you a lot about the school's general  - hmmm - work ethic, for lack of better words. And it does show, even if all the schools have the same manual and DVDs to learn from, the head instructor puts his/her stamp on the school!


----------



## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> If someone get insulted by a simple question what happens when someone ask that same person about a certain tech. they are showing?



Are you sure they were insulted when you asked about their rank, or perhaps could it have been that you were insulted because they did not answer your question to your satisfaction?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Dec 14, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> That's a different thing entirely, though...
> 
> Telling someone of some experience "go ask your teacher about..." can certainly come across as more than a little patronizing, no?


That would depend on the exchange. This followed an expression of frustration at the way something was laid out which was unique to a certain publication so it was suggested that an inquiry be made of the instructor about this publication (which the instructor did not write but was apparently following) as to the instructors perception of it being  a conscious deviation or perhaps a typographical or editing error.


----------



## Miles (Dec 14, 2010)

Slight twist to the conversation, but I don't recall ever being asked my rank by any current or prospective student (we don't wear stripes on our belts).


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

Miles said:


> Slight twist to the conversation, but I don't recall ever being asked my rank by any current or prospective student (we don't wear stripes on our belts).


As a general rule, I don't think that the students care. 

Daniel


----------



## IcemanSK (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As a general rule, I don't think that the students care.
> 
> Daniel


 

In general, most students really don't know much about rank, or even what the stripes are for, until we tell them. In my experience.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

IcemanSK said:


> In general, most students really don't know much about rank, or even what the stripes are for, until we tell them. In my experience.


Too bad we have to go and ruin it.  We'd save ourselves a ton of headache by simply keeping it at student/teacher.

Daniel


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Everybody on this board probaly knows me one way or another, that being said I have never really tried to insult or make anybody feel uncomfitable. That all changed today when I just ask a simple question what is your rank and where do you train, I was told that was inapprobiate to ask someone. I guess I am getting old when it is wrong to ask that question, has this ever happen to you at anytime? I guess I do not see this as a secret society when rank is involved.


Maybe people take issue with being identified by their rank. I know I feel embarrassed when someone announces to a crowed that I'm a blackbelt; because, that now just became part of my identity to those people and their given prejudices on the subject. There is a preference for just giving your name and enjoying the respect that should come with that alone, sometimes. And, if someone announces that they are only a colored belt and not a blackbelt, is their opinion less valid? Why handicap a perfectly good opinion?
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> My TKD uniform has a Korean flag on one arm, American flag on the other arm and a Jidokwan patch on the front. My karate uniform as our organization patch and school patch on one arm. We do have our names embroided on the front of the uniform, so the parents know who we are.
> 
> My belt is stripeless.


... or at least what you are wearing LOL
Sean


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> And, if someone announces that they are only a colored belt and not a blackbelt, is their opinion less valid? Why handicap a perfectly good opinion?


I think that it depends upon the context of what they are saying.  A colored belt's opinion of material past first dan is conjecture, speculation, and hearsay; they are not in a position to know the answers.

Sometimes, knowing the other person's rank is a quick way to get some idea as to where the other person may be coming from without asking a ton of other questions.  If I know that you are seventeen and third dan, that tells me that your perspective is going to be very different than that of a twenty five year old of the same rank.  Doesn't make his or her opinion less valid, but it does allow me to answer them knowing that they will be looking at things from a very different angle than I might be.

Daniel


----------



## Archtkd (Dec 14, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Maybe people take issue with being identified by their rank. I know I feel embarrassed when someone announces to a crowed that I'm a blackbelt; because, that now just became part of my identity to those people and their given prejudices on the subject. There is a preference for just giving your name and enjoying the respect that should come with that alone, sometimes. quote.]
> 
> I feel the same way, but it depends on the crowd. If the announcement is made in a dojang or a meeting of martial artists that's one thing, but if it's made to the general public it can feel very uncomfortable. I think such announcements to the general public not only embarrass but they may cause undue attention and tension. Not the same thing, but how would one who carries concealed feel if a friend introduced them loudly as "This is marksman George who carries a .45?"


----------



## granfire (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Too bad we have to go and ruin it.  We'd save ourselves a ton of headache by simply keeping it at student/teacher.
> 
> Daniel



You will always have your Senpai plus your teacher had a teacher....


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that it depends upon the context of what they are saying. A colored belt's opinion of material past first dan is conjecture, speculation, and hearsay; they are not in a position to know the answers.
> 
> Sometimes, knowing the other person's rank is a quick way to get some idea as to where the other person may be coming from without asking a ton of other questions. If I know that you are seventeen and third dan, that tells me that your perspective is going to be very different than that of a twenty five year old of the same rank. Doesn't make his or her opinion less valid, but it does allow me to answer them knowing that they will be looking at things from a very different angle than I might be.
> 
> Daniel


It helps you discriminate, but the person you are talking to may just want your opinion without the discrimination part.
Sean


----------



## dancingalone (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that it depends upon the context of what they are saying.  A colored belt's opinion of material past first dan is conjecture, speculation, and hearsay; they are not in a position to know the answers.
> 
> Sometimes, knowing the other person's rank is a quick way to get some idea as to where the other person may be coming from without asking a ton of other questions.  If I know that you are seventeen and third dan, that tells me that your perspective is going to be very different than that of a twenty five year old of the same rank.  Doesn't make his or her opinion less valid, but it does allow me to answer them knowing that they will be looking at things from a very different angle than I might be.



Very true.

On a side note, I'm glad to have *puunui* here and adding his input.  I'll definitely contribute a buck or two towards a flame-retardant suit for him if he stays around.


----------



## granfire (Dec 14, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> On a side note, I'm glad to have *puunui* here and adding his input.  I'll definitely contribute a buck or two towards a flame-retardant suit for him if he stays around.



around here? nevah! We don't do that flame thing!


----------



## dancingalone (Dec 14, 2010)

granfire said:


> around here? nevah! We don't do that flame thing!


:jediduel:



It's healthy (and informative) to have people of all ages and experiences participating.  I have enjoyed most of puunui's posts so far even if I haven't necessarily agreed with them myself.  He gives a certain insight that we've been lacking until now.  That and he's refreshingly blunt.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> It helps you discriminate, but the person you are talking to may just want your opinion without the discrimination part.
> Sean


Indeed and agreed.  

Asking is not something that I would generally do, and usually, if the person is engaged and made to feel comfortable, rank and such will usually come out in general conversation.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 14, 2010)

At our 1st dan black belt test we are required to memorize all of our seniors's current rank.  Outside of that it is never brought up at the school at all, unless someone gets promoted.  As for students I rarely, if ever, get asked about my rank or any other ranks of the instructors.  The biggest question I get asked that is close to it is how long have I been training or how long have I been at the school.  Every now and then someone may ask me what Sensei Sharkey's rank is (our instructor).


----------



## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I have enjoyed most of puunui's posts so far even if I haven't necessarily agreed with them myself.  He gives a certain insight that we've been lacking until now.  That and he's refreshingly blunt.



Thanks. In the past I was actually much more forceful because I was fighting for the survival of the USTU. There were all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork to flame me, mainly I think because I do have a certain perspective that is difficult to respond to in a factual way, if you disagree with my perspective. Now that the USTU is dead, with no hope of being resurrected, then the goal is different for me. Now I just write to hopefully make people think and for them to not forget what the pioneers sacrificed and accomplished through teamwork and cooperation, something that seems to be completely lacking in the world of Taekwondo today. everywhere you look, it's every man for themselves. 

To use a Star Wars analogy, ten fifteen years ago, we were deep in the midst of episodes one through three. 2004 was the end of episode three for both the USAT and WTF, when the leadership of both organizations changed hands for the worse. Now we are in the limbo between episodes three and four, and I feel like Obi Wan talking about the old Republic and the Jedi like they were a myth or fable, something that is hard for some to understand, even though what happened wasn't that long ago.


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> Where did you get your information from? Because according to the Kukkiwon, as of October 1997, there were 55 7th Dan, 21 8th Dan and 15 9th Dan certified by the Kukkiwon in the United States. I have the names of all of them too, so if you wish to post a list, I can tell you what their Kukkiwon rank is as of October 1997, if they were Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher at that time.


 

I wonder why they haven't updated that list recently? Its been 13 years. with technology making the counting easier.... why not update it. It would be a bit interesting to see the numbers and how they have changed since then.

but then again, how could they keep it accurate... I mean, who is still with us and who aint. It would really matter to say there are 100 9th DANS in the USA and only 6 alive ( i know greatly exagerated the number but still you get the point)


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 14, 2010)

Terry, by this thread, were you referring to the supreme master texkwondo? I noticed he hasn't corrected anyone lately!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 did you make him mad and leave?


----------



## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I wonder why they haven't updated that list recently? Its been 13 years. with technology making the counting easier.... why not update it. It would be a bit interesting to see the numbers and how they have changed since then.




The information I have comes from the Kukkiwon's 25th Anniversary Album, which was published at the direction of Dr. Kim. It wasn't for sale but was given away for free by the Kukkiwon. the 40th anniverary is coming up soon in 2012, perhaps they will put that information in that one, if they publish it. Mine were given to me by Dr. Kim's personal secretary, who still works at the Kukkiwon international department. There is all kinds of turmoil at the Kukkiwon under the new president, to the point where I don't know how much longer he will be there, and because of that, it is very hard for the Kukkiwon staff to make long range plans.


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> The information I have comes from the Kukkiwon's 25th Anniversary Album, which was published at the direction of Dr. Kim. It wasn't for sale but was given away for free by the Kukkiwon. the 40th anniverary is coming up soon in 2012, perhaps they will put that information in that one, if they publish it. Mine were given to me by Dr. Kim's personal secretary, who still works at the Kukkiwon international department. There is all kinds of turmoil at the Kukkiwon under the new president, to the point where I don't know how much longer he will be there, and because of that, it is very hard for the Kukkiwon staff to make long range plans.


 
I remember seeing a book that was published with thosenumbers around 97.  It was also listed on thier web page for a while, but is no longer there.

It is quite depressing to know the turmoil still continues... It seems like we have been waiting for this mess to end for Too long now.


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> Where did you get your information from? Because according to the Kukkiwon, as of October 1997, there were 55 7th Dan, 21 8th Dan and 15 9th Dan certified by the Kukkiwon in the United States. I have the names of all of them too, so if you wish to post a list, I can tell you what their Kukkiwon rank is as of October 1997, if they were Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher at that time.


 
Well just here in the DFW area you have GM Kurban, GM Won Chik Parks, GM Chang Lee, GM Garcia, GM Chaviz, GM Parks Mesquite, GM Sun Lee, GM Yim. This is just a few whether they are or not they are here, heck at GM Won Parks tournaments this past October he had twenty five GM all sitting at the long table in front of him. I really do not need you to look them up my point is they all say they are, some of these I know are for sure some I do not. I know I have the KKW manuel and see what numbers they say are factual so I really do not believe the 100 number but man it sure does seem like it.


----------



## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I know I have the KKW manuel and see what numbers they say are factual so I really do not believe the 100 number but man it sure does seem like it.




Which Kukkiwon Manual do you have which shows what numbers?


----------



## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Here is an old post I wrote for tkd net:

The following is a list of 9th Dan practitioners that the Kukkiwon
promoted  from 1972-1997. The first Kukkiwon 9th Dans were
promoted in 1975. I tried to  group them by Kwans off the top of
my head. There is a big group of 9th Dans  at the bottom of the list
which have unidentified Kwan lineage. I also tried  to list the country
of residence for as many as I could identify, again off  the top of my
head. If there is no country listed, then either I don't know  what
country they are living in, or they are living in Korea.

If you  know the Kwan or country of residence of these practitioners,
please let me  know.

*

Chung Do Kwan: UHM Woon Kyu (3rd Kwan Jang), KIM  Bong
Sik, LEE Tae Sung, LEE Yoo Sun (USA), PARK Hae Man,

Song Moo  Kwan: LEE Young Sup (2nd Kwan Jang), CHOI Dong
Hee (USA-OH), KIM Yong Kil  (USA-CA), KIM Il Joo (USA-OH),

Moo Duk Kwan: HONG Chong Soo (2nd Kwan  Jang), AHN
Kyong Won (USA-OH), CHOI Byung Ho (USA-FL), CHUN In
Moon  (USA-NY), CHUNG Sun Hwan (USA-MI), KANG Myung
Kyu (USA-CA), KIM Bong Ki, KIM  In Suk, KIM Jae Joon (USA-
FL), KIM Sang Soo (USA-NJ), KIM Young Chi  (USA-GA),  LEE
Moo Yong (USA-CA), MIN Kyung Ho (USA-CA),

Jidokwan: LEE  Chong Woo (3rd Kwan Jang), LEE Byung Ro
(10th Dan), AN Dae Sup (USA-TX), BAE  Young Ki, CHOI Tae
Hong (USA-OR), CHUN Il Sup, CHUNG Jin Yong, KIM  Koang
Woong (USA-WI), KIM Young Tae, KO Eui Min (GER), LEE
Sung Soo (AUS),  PARK Dong Gun (USA-NY), PARK Won Jick
(USA-TX), SUH Joong Keun  (USA-FL),

Chang Moo Kwan: LEE Nam Suk (2nd Kwan Jang; USA-CA),
KIM  Soon Bae (3rd Kwan Jang),  KIM Dae Shik (USA-TX),
KIM Ho Jae, KIM Sun Ku,  KWON Duk Gun (USA-IL), LIM 
Chang Soo (USA-MI), PARK Jung Hwan  (USA-FL),

Oh Do Kwan:  HYUN Jong Myung (2nd Kwan Jang), BAEK Joon
Ki  (3rd kwan Jang), KANG Chang Jin (USA-CA), KIM Byung
Woon, KIM Sung Joo, LEE  Eui Bin (USA-CA),

Jung Do Kwan: LEE Young Woo (2nd Kwan Jang),

Han  Moo Kwan: LEE Kyo Yoon (1st Kwan Jang),

Kang Duk Won: HONG Jong Pyo (1st  Kwan Jang), LEE Kum
Hong (3rd Kwan Jang/WTF Secretary General), CHONG  Hwa
(USA-MI),

*

Unidentified Kwan:

AN Jong Woong, BAE  Sung Sil, BAE Won Keun (USA-NJ),
BAEK Gyu In, BAEK Woon Dae, BYUN Jin Suk,  CHANG Tae
Rang (USA-NY), CHANG Young Jun (USA-NY),  CHUN Jae
Kyu, CHUN  Young Ho, CHUNG Ik Jin, HAN Choon Kyo (USA-
CA), HONG Sung In, HWANG Choon  Sung, HWANG Koang
Chul, HWANG Man Nyun, JANG Jin Il, JANG Ki Seung,  JO
Jeung Duk, JO Jum Sun, JO Young Dae, JO Young Re, KANG
Hong Soon, KANG  Jung Ku, KANG Young Bok, KIM Jong Ok,
KIM Ju Hun (USA-NC), KIM Jung Kwan, KIM  Ki Dong, KIM
Kwang Il, KIM Myung Soo, KIM Nam Suk, KIM Sa Ok, KIM
Sun, KIM  Yong Ho, KIM Yong Suh, KO Kuk Hwan, KONG
Kyung Wook, KWON Young Moon (USA),  LEE Choon Bong,
LEE Jong Soo, LEE Jung Nam (NZ), LEE Kyong Myong,  LEE
Kyung Duek, LEE Pyung Pil, LEE Seung Hak, LEE Woon Se
(USA-MD), LEE  Young Keun (USA-CA), LIM Soon Ho, NO 
Won Sik, PARK Bu Chul, PARK Byung Chul,  PARK Dae Jin, 
PARK Hee Won, PARK Myung Soo, PARK Re Soon, PARK 
Sung Hong  (USA-DE), PARK Woong Young, SEO Myung Soo, 
SHIN Dong Kyu, SONG Bong Sup,  SONG Sang Kuen, SUH 
Chun Suk, SUH Yoon Nam, SUH Yung Sun, SUNG Baek Kyu,  
YE Jo Hae, YOO Mok, YOO Young Jae, YOON Woong Yul, 
Solomon Yun  (USA-WA)


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> Here is an old post I wrote for tkd net:
> 
> The following is a list of 9th Dan practitioners that the Kukkiwon
> promoted from 1972-1997. The first Kukkiwon 9th Dans were
> ...


 
It would be interesting to see a recent list (if ever published) and if any Americans are on it....


----------



## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> It would be interesting to see a recent list (if ever published) and if any Americans are on it....



There are two non-korean Kukkiwon 9th Dan in the United States: GM Ed Sell in Florida and GM Tom Vo in California. There are a few 8th Dan that I know of and more and more 7th Dan. But it still is a pretty small club when you are in that range of ranks.


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> There are two non-korean Kukkiwon 9th Dan in the United States: GM Ed Sell in Florida and GM Tom Vo in California. There are a few 8th Dan that I know of and more and more 7th Dan. But it still is a pretty small club when you are in that range of ranks.


 
And over time, if the KKW survives the latest drama, I suspect there will be MANY more Americans!  

thanks


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> There are two non-korean Kukkiwon 9th Dan in the United States: GM Ed Sell in Florida and GM Tom Vo in California. There are a few 8th Dan that I know of and more and more 7th Dan. But it still is a pretty small club when you are in that range of ranks.


Out of curiosity, are there any australian kukki 9th dans? Our GM is 9th dan but obviously not with the kukkiwon.


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> Which Kukkiwon Manual do you have which shows what numbers?


 
The KKW Encyedepia


----------



## granfire (Dec 15, 2010)

now I have a question:

If there are no 9th degrees in your organization, how do you get promoted...


----------



## IcemanSK (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm surprised that GMs Sell & Vo are the only two American 9th Dans with KKW certs. It's been nearly 10 years since GM Sell tested for 9th Dan. I figured others would have come along by now.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

granfire said:


> now I have a question:
> 
> If there are no 9th degrees in your organization, how do you get promoted...


Not sure who you're directing this to, but unless you're eigth dan, this isn't a problem.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2010)

granfire said:


> now I have a question:
> 
> If there are no 9th degrees in your organization, how do you get promoted...



The time honored way:  self-promotion.  :angel:

Most of the smaller American organizations had this to some degree in their past.  Heck, I'm fairly sure luminaries like Jhoon Rhee or He Il Cho self-promoted themselves to 10th dan, even if they got a rubber stamp from some 'council of grandmasters' later on.


----------



## granfire (Dec 15, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not sure who you're directing this to, but unless you're eigth dan, this isn't a problem.
> 
> Daniel





dancingalone said:


> The time honored way:  self-promotion.  :angel:
> 
> Most of the smaller American organizations had this to some degree in their past.  Heck, I'm fairly sure luminaries like Jhoon Rhee or He Il Cho self-promoted themselves to 10th dan, even if they got a rubber stamp from some 'council of grandmasters' later on.



directing this to my council of MT Grandmasters! 

we did step away from the original question quiet a bit, and I didn't want to start another thread... ^_^ 

I won't live long enough to get to 8th dan...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

granfire said:


> directing this to my council of MT Grandmasters!
> 
> we did step away from the original question quiet a bit, and I didn't want to start another thread... ^_^
> 
> I won't live long enough to get to 8th dan...


Why do you say that?  You're younger than I am.

Daniel


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> The KKW Encyedepia




Which Kukkiwon Encyclopedia? I don't have that, and I would like to obtain it. Is that the exact title of the book?


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

granfire said:


> now I have a question: If there are no 9th degrees in your organization, how do you get promoted...




There are many Korean born 9th Dan living in the United States. But as far as the Kukkiwon is concerned, you need an instructor recommendation for rank up to 7th Dan. For 8th and 9th Dan, no instructor recommendation is necessary. The Kukkiwon recognizes that many instructors who are 9th Dan do not wish to promote their students to the same rank as they are. So the Kukkiwon changed the rules such that an 8th or 9th Dan candidate isn't required to have a instructor recommendation for promotion.


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Heck, I'm fairly sure luminaries like Jhoon Rhee or He Il Cho self-promoted themselves to 10th dan, even if they got a rubber stamp from some 'council of grandmasters' later on.



GM Jhoon Rhee was promoted to 9th Dan by GM LEE Won Kuk; he doesn't have Kukkiwon rank. GM CHO Hee Il is listed as a Kukkiwon 8th Dan in 1997, but I am pretty sure he is Kukkiwon 9th Dan at this point. GM Cho was one of those ITF instructors who received Kukkiwon dan through the ITF assimilation program. I believe he received Kukkiwon 7th Dan in the 1980's sometime.


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

IcemanSK said:


> I'm surprised that GMs Sell & Vo are the only two American 9th Dans with KKW certs. It's been nearly 10 years since GM Sell tested for 9th Dan. I figured others would have come along by now.




GM Sell was way senior to all non-Korean practitioners. After him there is a huge gap, and maybe there are a handful of American born 8th Dan. The 1997 list has several 7th Dan, but they are older practitioners in their late 60's or 70's who I think stopped getting promoted. One problem is that for 8th and 9th Dan, you have to take a physical test in Korea at the Kukkiwon, and many practitioners are unwilling to do that, realizing they will probably flunk. You also are required to write a ten page thesis, which can be a tremendous problem for some.


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> Which Kukkiwon Encyclopedia? I don't have that, and I would like to obtain it. Is that the exact title of the book?


 
It is at my school, I willget the exact name when I go back this evening for you.


----------



## IcemanSK (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> GM Sell was way senior to all non-Korean practitioners. After him there is a huge gap, and maybe there are a handful of American born 8th Dan. The 1997 list has several 7th Dan, but they are older practitioners in their late 60's or 70's who I think stopped getting promoted. One problem is that for 8th and 9th Dan, you have to take a physical test in Korea at the Kukkiwon, and many practitioners are unwilling to do that, realizing they will probably flunk. You also are required to write a ten page thesis, which can be a tremendous problem for some.


 
I know that GM Sell was an early practioner, but I've heard of others as well. Perhaps they went independent years ago, perhaps there are other reasons as well. The trip to Korea & the thesis are just two reasons, I'm sure.


----------



## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> GM Jhoon Rhee was promoted to 9th Dan by GM LEE Won Kuk; he doesn't have Kukkiwon rank. GM CHO Hee Il is listed as a Kukkiwon 8th Dan in 1997, but I am pretty sure he is Kukkiwon 9th Dan at this point. GM Cho was one of those ITF instructors who received Kukkiwon dan through the ITF assimilation program. I believe he received Kukkiwon 7th Dan in the 1980's sometime.



I've seen promotional literature for events with the involvement of these men where a 10th dan is mentioned, something that is outside of the normal 9 max in Korean organizations.

In any case, I don't mean to detract from their accomplishments in any way.  Jhoon Rhee is in my TKD lineage after all.


----------



## granfire (Dec 15, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Why do you say that?  You're younger than I am.
> 
> Daniel



I am? 

I did the math at one time, before I took a LONG break, in 'my' organization I would have been around 50 for 6th, add another 2 decades for 7th and 8th...

Though I have to say, having crossed the big 4 0 fifty does not look as scary - or far off - anymore...but ask me again in 7 years...



However...now wait, maybe in there somewhere is my answer...

I do believe the organization traces it's lineage back to the ITF...

anyhow, the founders just now got themselves the satin shawl for 8th degree...9 is supposed to be the max. I suppose barring any unforseen incidences, in about 8 years they get their 9th....


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I've seen promotional literature for events with the involvement of these men where a 10th dan is mentioned, something that is outside of the normal 9 max in Korean organizations.




GM LEE Won Kuk issued at least two 10th Dan certificates. He wanted to give me one.


----------



## IcemanSK (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> GM LEE Won Kuk issued at least two 10th Dan certificates. He wanted to give me one.


 
To whom did he give them?


----------



## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2010)

IcemanSK said:


> To whom did he give them?



Also, who if anyone promoted Lee Won Kuk to 10th?


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 15, 2010)

OK I thought 10th was only for the Presdient of the KKW or when someone passes away? Can you explain how someone gets to 10th for me. Thanks


----------



## bluewaveschool (Dec 15, 2010)

Jhoon Rhee and Kang Suh Chong


----------



## RobinTKD (Dec 15, 2010)

If i'm not mistaken, didn't Kim Un-Yong give Saramanch (former president of the IOC) an honorary 10th degree bb?

seems to cheapen the meaning to me.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 15, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> If i'm not mistaken, didn't Kim Un-Yong give Saramanch (former president of the IOC) an honorary 10th degree bb?
> 
> seems to cheapen the meaning to me.


To what value do you give the term *honorary*. 
Sean


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

IcemanSK said:


> To whom did he give them?



GM KANG Suh Jong and GM UHM Woon Kyu. GM Uhm was first I believe. And as far as I can tell, no one promoted GM Lee to 10th Dan. The highest rank that I believe he received was a Shotokan 4th Dan, which he got prior to returning to Korea in 1944. Also, the 10th Dan that GM Lee awarded were not Kukkiwon 10th Dan, but his own dan certificate which he signed.


----------



## granfire (Dec 15, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> To what value do you give the term *honorary*.
> Sean



:lfao:

I suppose it depends!


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> OK I thought 10th was only for the Presdient of the KKW or when someone passes away?




The only two people who were awarded Kukkiwon 10th Dan when they were alive was Dr. Un Yong Kim, and IOC Past President Juan Antonio Samaranch. The rest of the Kukkiwon 10th Dan were awarded their 10th Dan after they passed away. I used to know all the names of the Kukkiwon 10th Dan, but I forget now.


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> If i'm not mistaken, didn't Kim Un-Yong give Saramanch (former president of the IOC) an honorary 10th degree bb? seems to cheapen the meaning to me.



If it weren't for Mr. Samaranch, Taekwondo wouldn't be in the Olympic Games. During the IOC vote back in 1994, Taekwondo I believe failed to receive enough votes to become a full medal sport. At that point, Mr. Samaranch stood and stated "Taekwondo is going to be an Olympic sport, anyone here oppose?, and no one raised their hand or said anything. There was another vote, and Taekwondo became an Olympic sport. 

Besides Dr. Kim himself, Mr. Samaranch did more for Taekwondo than any other single person out there. He deserves whatever highest award that we have, and then some.


----------



## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> And as far as I can tell, no one promoted GM Lee to 10th Dan. The highest rank that I believe he received was a Shotokan 4th Dan, which he got prior to returning to Korea in 1944.



Do you know if that 4th dan was achieved under the 5 dan system?  Gichin Funakoshi only held a 5th dan during his lifetime I believe.


----------



## IcemanSK (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> GM KANG Suh Jong and GM UHM Woon Kyu. GM Uhm was first I believe. And as far as I can tell, no one promoted GM Lee to 10th Dan. The highest rank that I believe he received was a Shotokan 4th Dan, which he got prior to returning to Korea in 1944. Also, the 10th Dan that GM Lee awarded were not Kukkiwon 10th Dan, but his own dan certificate which he signed.


 

Can you site your source on the 10th Dan promotion, please. I want to be able to point to a source beyond "a guy on the internet." Thanks.


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Do you know if that 4th dan was achieved under the 5 dan system?  Gichin Funakoshi only held a 5th dan during his lifetime I believe.



It was. GM Lee said that he had achieved the highest dan available at the time, actually from his main teacher FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, which was 4th Dan. GM Lee credits Yoshitaka Sensei as his main influence, not the father. The father used to teach in the day, which is when Song Moo Kwan founder GM RO Byung Jick used to train, but GM Lee practiced at night with the son, who had a full time day job and taught the night classes. GM Lee said that he trained continuously for over ten years at the Shotokan before he returned to Korea is January 1944.


----------



## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

IcemanSK said:


> Can you site your source on the 10th Dan promotion, please. I want to be able to point to a source beyond "a guy on the internet." Thanks.




GM LEE Won Kuk told me in one of our many conversations. He might have promoted more people, but that is the two people he specifically mentioned. He promoted a whole bunch of people to 9th Dan, mainly Korean born practitioners.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> If it weren't for Mr. Samaranch, Taekwondo wouldn't be in the Olympic Games. During the IOC vote back in 1994, Taekwondo I believe failed to receive enough votes to become a full medal sport. At that point, Mr. Samaranch stood and stated "Taekwondo is going to be an Olympic sport, anyone here oppose?, and no one raised their hand or said anything. There was another vote, and Taekwondo became an Olympic sport.
> 
> Besides Dr. Kim himself, Mr. Samaranch did more for Taekwondo than any other single person out there. He deserves whatever highest award that we have, and then some.


So basically, for getting TKD into the olympics, he gets a tenth dan. Was he a ninth dan prior to that? Did he hold any grades at all in the art? I suppose that it it is an honorary degree, that it really doesn't make much difference, but still. 

Aside from getting taekwondo into the olympics, what did Mr. Samaranch *do* for TKD that was more than any other single person out there?

Daniel


----------



## bluewaveschool (Dec 16, 2010)

He didn't do anything for the art of TKD, just for the sport.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> He didn't do anything for the art of TKD, just for the sport.


Okay, for the sport. Was he a competitor? A coach? Or did he just get TKD into the olympics as a medaled sport inspite the fact that it didn't have the votes?

Daniel


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 16, 2010)

Dabiel he was nevr either just the head guy that got it into the Olympics, he played a big role in doing so


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Dabiel he was nevr either just the head guy that got it into the Olympics, he played a big role in doing so


Thanks, Terry.  

While getting taekwondo into the olympics as a medaled sport is a noteworthy accomplishment, to say that besides Dr. Kim, he has done more for taekwondo than any other single individual is a huge stretch.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Thanks, Terry.
> 
> While getting taekwondo into the olympics as a medaled sport is a noteworthy accomplishment, to say that besides Dr. Kim, he has done more for taekwondo than any other single individual is a huge stretch.
> 
> Daniel


 
I totally agree


----------



## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Aside from getting taekwondo into the olympics, what did Mr. Samaranch *do* for TKD that was more than any other single person out there?




He almost single handedly at the crucial moment placed Taekwondo in the Olympic Games as a full medal sport, which has been the most important goal for Taekwondo since Dr. Un Yong Kim's arrival in 1971. In doing so, he has helped to inspire millions of practitioners all over the world to realize their potential. 

But irrespective of whether you recognize or respect what President Samaranch, I will say that he did not seek out or ask for that Kukkiwon 10th Dan. Maybe he has it framed and up on his wall somewhere, but chances are very good that it isn't, that he doesn't even think about it, anymore than I think about all the certificates of appreciation or letters of acknowlegement that I get when I donate to a charity.


----------



## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> While getting taekwondo into the olympics as a medaled sport is a noteworthy accomplishment, to say that besides Dr. Kim, he has done more for taekwondo than any other single individual is a huge stretch.




Ok, then in your opinion, who did more than President Samaranch? Because again, that isn't my opinion, it is Dr. Kim's opinion as well as the opinion of the Taekwondo pioneers. Again, your disagreement isn't with me, it is with them. I'm just the messenger.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> Ok, then in your opinion, who did more than President Samaranch? Because again, that isn't my opinion, it is Dr. Kim's opinion as well as the opinion of the Taekwondo pioneers. Again, your disagreement isn't with me, it is with them. I'm just the messenger.


Oh, I don't know, probably anyone who has ever taken the time to learn the art and to transmit it to others.  

Daniel


----------



## RobinTKD (Dec 16, 2010)

Are we talking who did more for Taekwondo as a whole, encompassing all factions of the art? Or who did more for Taekwondo as a sport? There's 2 different answers there. The reason i say it cheapens it is  most people who have trained their entire life will hardly get past 6th dan, irrespective of skill and knowledge, and if i was at that level watching some European who's probably never kicked higher than his waist his entire life becomes some sort of TKD god, i'd be pretty p***ed.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> He almost single handedly at the crucial moment placed Taekwondo in the Olympic Games as a full medal sport, which has been the most important goal for Taekwondo since Dr. Un Yong Kim's arrival in 1971. In doing so, he has helped to inspire millions of practitioners all over the world to realize their potential.
> 
> But irrespective of whether you recognize or respect what President Samaranch, I will say that he did not seek out or ask for that Kukkiwon 10th Dan. Maybe he has it framed and up on his wall somewhere, but chances are very good that it isn't, that he doesn't even think about it, anymore than I think about all the certificates of appreciation or letters of acknowlegement that I get when I donate to a charity.


Never said that I didn't respect him or that he sought out the honor.  Again, it is an honorary degree, so it kind of makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.  

You stated that he did more than any individual beside Dr. Kim for taekwondo, which I feel is a stretch.

Daniel


----------



## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Oh, I don't know, probably anyone who has ever taken the time to learn the art and to transmit it to others.  l



So in your opinion, anyone who has ever taken the time to learn the art and transmit it to others did more for Taekwondo than President Samaranch?


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> Are we talking who did more for Taekwondo as a whole, encompassing all factions of the art? Or who did more for Taekwondo as a sport? There's 2 different answers there. The reason i say it cheapens it is most people who have trained their entire life will hardly get past 6th dan, irrespective of skill and knowledge, and if i was at that level watching some European who's probably never kicked higher than his waist his entire life becomes some sort of TKD god, i'd be pretty p***ed.


 
Then it must have made you vomit when S.K. Pres. Lee gave Obama an honorary black belt.  As well as when Jhoon Rhee gave honoray black belts to other presidents.  We are not putting anyone up to God or even Demi-god status   We are simply recognizing that somebody believed in TKD so much that they helped put it as a medal event in the olympics.  Without his help it may have never acheived that status.

I believe he should be given an honorary 10th dan.  He had nothing to gain from all of it.  People...it is HONORARY.  I really doubt he was out the next day opening up a dojang or even advertising it on his resume.


----------



## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> Are we talking who did more for Taekwondo as a whole, encompassing all factions of the art? Or who did more for Taekwondo as a sport? There's 2 different answers there.



Are there?




RobinTKD said:


> The reason i say it cheapens it is  most people who have trained their entire life will hardly get past 6th dan, irrespective of skill and knowledge, and if i was at that level watching some European who's probably never kicked higher than his waist his entire life becomes some sort of TKD god, i'd be pretty p***ed.



Does President Samaranch receiving a Kukkiwon 10th Dan make him some sort of TKD god?  And what does the fact that he is European have anything to do with it?


----------



## leadleg (Dec 16, 2010)

Over the years I have seen so many gov.,mayors,even buisnessmen recieve honarary bb's for doing nothing but show up to a tourney or event that it means nothing at all.At least this guy did something for it.


----------



## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You stated that he did more than any individual beside Dr. Kim for taekwondo, which I feel is a stretch.




That's ok, as long as you recognize that you are disagreeing with Dr. Kim and the taekwondo pioneers, who were the ones who gave President Samaranch that 10th Dan. Which I guess is the point hopefully is getting through from all these posts, which is: More and more we see juniors, instead of taking the time to understand what their seniors did and why they did it, choose instead to ignore that and substitute their own opinions on whatever subject, based on their own limited personal experience.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> That's ok, as long as you recognize that you are disagreeing with Dr. Kim and the taekwondo pioneers, who were the ones who gave President Samaranch that 10th Dan. Which I guess is the point hopefully is getting through from all these posts, which is: More and more we see juniors, instead of taking the time to understand what their seniors did and why they did it, choose instead to ignore that and substitute their own opinions on whatever subject, based on their own limited personal experience.


Sure, I'll disagree with Dr. Kim.  

Not saying that what the man did wasn't important, but I reitterate that each and every person who has taken the time to study and learn the art and to then transmit it to others has done more.

Daniel


----------



## RobinTKD (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> Are there?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course there is! firstly every person who developed the art did more for Taekwondo by actually creating it, regardless of what you believe about its history it was people like Gen. Choi etc who fought for it to be named Taekwondo and be classed as a separate art from Tae Soo Do, they did more for the art. In terms of sport, then I'd maybe agree that, besides Kim himself very few have done more for the sport.

i didn't mean to bring up that he was European in that way, I'm English myself, i just meant that he comes from a country with no history of martial arts.


----------



## bluewaveschool (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> Ok, then in your opinion, who did more than President Samaranch? Because again, that isn't my opinion, it is Dr. Kim's opinion as well as the opinion of the Taekwondo pioneers. Again, your disagreement isn't with me, it is with them. I'm just the messenger.




Besides Dr. Kim, names.  Because from where I'm standing, you seem to keep hiding behind the 'pioneers of TKD' as a shield for your opinions.


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> i didn't mean to bring up that he was European in that way, I'm English myself, i just meant that he comes from a country with no history of martial arts.


Are you kidding me or do you have a very 1 demensional view of what martial arts is?


----------



## bluewaveschool (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> So in your opinion, anyone who has ever taken the time to learn the art and transmit it to others did more for Taekwondo than President Samaranch?




I would agree with that statement.


----------



## RobinTKD (Dec 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Are you kidding me or do you have a very 1 demensional view of what martial arts is?



Unarmed, potentially lethal, combat? I can tell you now that Italy hasn't practised fighting with short swords and long shields and gladiatorial battles for fun for quite some time. Or would you class fencing as a martial art? Archery?

Do you class sports differently to martial arts?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> So in your opinion, anyone who has ever taken the time to learn the art and transmit it to others did more for Taekwondo than President Samaranch?


That is what I said.  I would not have typed it if it were not my opinion.  Without them, there would not be any olympic hopefuls.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> Unarmed, potentially lethal, combat? I can tell you now that Italy hasn't practised fighting with short swords and long shields and gladiatorial battles for fun for quite some time. Or would you class fencing as a martial art? Archery?
> 
> Do you class sports differently to martial arts?


Well, there is that Itallian school of fencing.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> Unarmed, potentially lethal, combat? I can tell you now that Italy hasn't practised fighting with short swords and long shields and gladiatorial battles for fun for quite some time. Or would you class fencing as a martial art? Archery?
> 
> Do you class sports differently to martial arts?


 
First off you statement was "No martial art history".  So are you seriously telling me that No country in Europe has ever practiced martial arts in their history? 

Secondly, I would beg to differ that there are small groups and organizations in Italy that still practice sword fighting.  They are not as popular as say Asian martial arts, but to say Europe has no martial art history is wrong.

Yes, I classify archery and fencing as martial arts.  Yes I classify sports and martial arts differently.  I don't believe baseball was derived from ancient fighting system.  Now if you are asking if sport martial arts is different than martial arts...no I do not classify them differently.  Sport aspects are still part of martail arts.


----------



## RobinTKD (Dec 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> First off you statement was "No martial art history".  So are you seriously telling me that No country in Europe has ever practiced martial arts in their history?



Please name a French martial art, or a Swedish? OK Russia has systema, but that really is it.



miguksaram said:


> Secondly, I would beg to differ that there are small groups and organizations in Italy that still practice sword fighting.  They are not as popular as say Asian martial arts, but to say Europe has no martial art history is wrong.



But then we differ on opinion, just practising sword fighting isn't a martial art to me. I've always felt it has more to do with addressing the balance between body and mind, by training the body to become strong, we become strong intellectually and ethically, I don't believe that these ideals are practised in things such as fencing, or short sword fighting.



miguksaram said:


> Yes, I classify archery and fencing as martial arts.  Yes I classify sports and martial arts differently.  I don't believe baseball was derived from ancient fighting system.  Now if you are asking if sport martial arts is different than martial arts...no I do not classify them differently.  Sport aspects are still part of martail arts.



OK, so lets agree to disagree, again I don't believe that they are martial arts, and I do see a difference between sport martial art and 'traditional' martial arts, mainly because I've trained in both and felt the difference myself. When being trained in sport Judo, there was no emphasis on respect for your opponent, no tenets to follow outside the class about self control and courtesy, you were _encouraged_ to fight outside if only for practice. In the end I gave it up to learn Taekwondo, where we are taught these things, and yes we spar, but not to train for a sport but to practice technique. We are not really taught anything about sport Taekwondo.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> Please name a French martial art, or a Swedish? OK Russia has systema, but that really is it.


Savatte, Escrime, Lacanne, parkour if you count that.



RobinTKD said:


> But then we differ on opinion, just practising sword fighting isn't a martial art to me. I've always felt it has more to do with addressing the balance between body and mind, by training the body to become strong, we become strong intellectually and ethically, I don't believe that these ideals are practised in things such as fencing, or short sword fighting.


The term, martial arts, is a western term used to describe the sciences of waging war.  Sword fighting is most certainly martial.  



RobinTKD said:


> OK, so lets agree to disagree, again I don't believe that they are martial arts, and I do see a difference between sport martial art and 'traditional' martial arts, mainly because I've trained in both and felt the difference myself. When being trained in sport Judo, there was no emphasis on respect for your opponent, no tenets to follow outside the class about self control and courtesy, you were _encouraged_ to fight outside if only for practice. In the end I gave it up to learn Taekwondo, where we are taught these things, and yes we spar, but not to train for a sport but to practice technique. We are not really taught anything about sport Taekwondo.


I do agree that there is a difference between the sportive aspects of an MA and the other aspects.

Daniel


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 16, 2010)

French: Savate as well as _la cane._

Define "martial art."  Every ethnicity has found some way to pass along successful fighting and combative approaches.  Western boxing is as much a martial art as Chinese Boxing.  Fencing with an epee is as much a martial art as kendo or iado.  Greco-Roman wrestling is as much a martial art as Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

Or show me why they aren't.

If you're suggesting that it only counts as a martial art if there is some overall moral issue -- then you're limiting yourself to only a part of the arts.  (There's a reason I like the term martial sciences more than martial arts...)


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

Sweedish martail arts:


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 16, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> He didn't do anything for the art of TKD, just for the sport.


 
Ok this I dont agree with because 1 has an effect on the other.  Since 1988 and TKD debuting in the olympics, More TKD school have popped up and advertised using the Olympic dream/free advertisement.  In turn, more schools ment more TKD people.  Not every person who walked into a school wanted to go to the olympics.  But the ease and availability of a TKD school who popped up trying to cash in on the Olympic dream had an adverse effect on the number of people who began to study TKD.

So whether it was for sport or not, Art or not, the Olympics pushed More TKD schools into society which attracted more individuals to take TKD rather than Karate or Kung Fu.

Much like the Kung Fu craze hit when Bruce Lee came out and the Ninja Craze popped up Ninja schools....

How ever they (ART-Sport) are  today cannot take away from the fact that TKD introduced INTO the OLYMPICS in 1988 cause a HUGE growth Spurt of WORLDWIDE TAEKWONDO Practitioners.


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> Please name a French martial art, or a Swedish? OK Russia has systema, but that really is it.


French = Savate.  Sweds = I believe Stav.  



> But then we differ on opinion, just practising sword fighting isn't a martial art to me.


So those who do kendo are not practicing martial arts?



> I've always felt it has more to do with addressing the balance between body and mind, by training the body to become strong, we become strong intellectually and ethically, I don't believe that these ideals are practised in things such as fencing, or short sword fighting.


Then you have a lot to learn about sword fighting.





> OK, so lets agree to disagree, again I don't believe that they are martial arts


Then you need to broaden your view of martial arts outside of the Asian realm.  Pretty much every country has had some form of military fighting system.  They may be as simple as point and shoot, but it is still a system of fighting.  Plus...go tell a Korean that Gungdo is not a martial art...you will soon learn how they view your opinoin.  



> I do see a difference between sport martial art and 'traditional' martial arts, mainly because I've trained in both and felt the difference myself. When being trained in sport Judo, there was no emphasis on respect for your opponent, no tenets to follow outside the class about self control and courtesy, you were _encouraged_ to fight outside if only for practice.


Then you were not taught judo properly or at the very least you were not taught the full system of Judo.  Sounds more like the Cobra Kai version.



> In the end I gave it up to learn Taekwondo, where we are taught these things, and yes we spar, but not to train for a sport but to practice technique. We are not really taught anything about sport Taekwondo.


I have practiced, and still practice, for the sport aspect along with all other aspects of martial arts.  The base is the same the only difference are the set of rules of which you practice with.


----------



## Archtkd (Dec 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Then it must have made you vomit when S.K. Pres. Lee gave Obama an honorary black belt. As well as when Jhoon Rhee gave honoray black belts to other presidents. We are not putting anyone up to God or even Demi-god status We are simply recognizing that somebody believed in TKD so much that they helped put it as a medal event in the olympics. Without his help it may have never acheived that status.
> 
> I believe he should be given an honorary 10th dan. He had nothing to gain from all of it. People...it is HONORARY. I really doubt he was out the next day opening up a dojang or even advertising it on his resume.


 
How about Elvis Presley's 7th Dan after only 5 years of training?


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> How about Elvis Presley's 7th Dan after only 5 years of training?


HEY!!!! YOU LEAVE THE KING OUT OF THIS! Or we will have words :jediduel: ha.ha.ha.ha.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Ok this I dont agree with because 1 has an effect on the other. Since 1988 and TKD debuting in the olympics, More TKD school have popped up and advertised using the Olympic dream/free advertisement. In turn, more schools ment more TKD people. Not every person who walked into a school wanted to go to the olympics. But the ease and availability of a TKD school who popped up trying to cash in on the Olympic dream had an adverse effect on the number of people who began to study TKD.
> 
> So whether it was for sport or not, Art or not, the Olympics pushed More TKD schools into society which attracted more individuals to take TKD rather than Karate or Kung Fu.
> 
> ...


I agree with you for the most part, though there were considerable factors other than the olympics in the same time frame.  Martial arts were incredibly popular in the eighties and by the end of the decade to the beginning of the ninties, martial arts had become much more mainstream and much more popular to entrepreneurs.  There was an increase in pretty much all MA schools at that time, not just taekwondo.

Daniel


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 16, 2010)

would anyone classify Roman-Grecco wrestling as a Martial Art?  I mean, if Sumo wrestling is........


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> How about Elvis Presley's 7th Dan after only 5 years of training?


Presley's 7th dan came from Kang Rhee if I recall, and Ed Parker awarded him an honorary 8th.  Presley had done quite a bit to finance the arts and if I'm not mistaken, paid for Rhee's school.  Not sure of the training time, but five years is more than zero last I checked.  And we're also not talking about a tenth dan either.

Daniel


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I agree with you for the most part, though there were considerable factors other than the olympics in the same time frame. Martial arts were incredibly popular in the eighties and by the end of the decade to the beginning of the ninties, martial arts had become much more mainstream and much more popular to entrepreneurs. There was an increase in pretty much all MA schools at that time, not just taekwondo.
> 
> Daniel


 

True, but had TKD not become an Olympic sport, I don't believe it would have grown as much as it did.


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Presley's 7th dan came from Kang Rhee if I recall, and Ed Parker awarded him an honorary 8th. Presley had done quite a bit to finance the arts and if I'm not mistaken, paid for Rhee's school. Not sure of the training time, but five years is more than zero last I checked. And we're also not talking about a tenth dan either.
> 
> Daniel


 
Actually somewhere here on MT they is a post about Presley's training.  I had not know HOW INVOLVED and into it he was.  I too thought it was a "weekend course at the Y 1 summer" deal, but apparently he was a pretty serious practicioner.

Do a search.  There were videos posted about who/what where/when.


----------



## Archtkd (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Presley's 7th dan came from Kang Rhee if I recall, and Ed Parker awarded him an honorary 8th. Presley had done quite a bit to finance the arts and if I'm not mistaken, paid for Rhee's school. Not sure of the training time, but five years is more than zero last I checked. And we're also not talking about a tenth dan either.
> 
> Daniel


 
Lighten up folks. The King's mention was to ease the tension, Miguksaram got it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Actually somewhere here on MT they is a post about Presley's training. I had not know HOW INVOLVED and into it he was. I too thought it was a "weekend course at the Y 1 summer" deal, but apparently he was a pretty serious practicioner.
> 
> Do a search. There were videos posted about who/what where/when.


Presley was definitely more than a weekend warrior and was very into the arts.  He really should not have been promoted to the rank that he was, but that does not diminish that he did practice and was known to be able to defend himself.

A reporter whose name escapes me (May Nann?) wrote a book about the time she spent with him and recounts him being attacked by a German Shepherd and killing the dog with a shuto.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> Lighten up folks. The King's mention was to ease the tension, Miguksaram got it.


What tension?  This is a hunka'va good thread.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> True, but had TKD not become an Olympic sport, I don't believe it would have grown as much as it did.


True.  But lets not forget Best of the Best now.

Daniel


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> True. But lets not forget Best of the Best now.
> 
> Daniel


 
now that movie was hands down a WIN because of the Rhee brothers.... had they not been in it, it would have been another "B" budget 80's film.

Can I give them a 10th DAN for inspiring me?


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> True. But lets not forget Best of the Best now.
> 
> Daniel


Or When Taekwondo Strikes...starring Angela Mao and Jhoon Rhee. BTW...I'm not afraid to admit I had a crush on Angela Mao since Enter the Dragon.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Or When Taekwondo Strikes...starring Angela Mao and Jhoon Rhee. BTW...I'm not afraid to admit I had a crush on Angela Mao since Enter the Dragon.


Lets not forget Lady Kung Fu, AKA Hapkido.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> now that movie was hands down a WIN because of the Rhee brothers.... had they not been in it, it would have been another "B" budget 80's film.
> 
> Can I give them a 10th DAN for inspiring me?


Well the story behind Best of the Best, was that they had another movie out called Ninja Turf, which was a very B movie....though I liked it.  Anyway, Phillip overheard one of their students who saw the movie talk about how violent it was or how they couldn't believe that they would do something like.  That was when Phillip got the idea to make Best of the Best to show Taekwondo in a more positive light.


----------



## RobinTKD (Dec 16, 2010)

I'll admit when I'm wrong, I don't mind, in fact, I'll even research into these things that I've never heard of, just to prove myself more wrong than I already am.


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Lets not forget Lady Kung Fu, AKA Hapkido.
> 
> Daniel


Or...Lady Whirlwind...Deadly China Doll....the list goes on.


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 16, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> I'll admit when I'm wrong, I don't mind, in fact, I'll even research into these things that I've never heard of, just to prove myself more wrong than I already am.


You will be shocked in what you find.  There are some interesting fighting systems out there.  Enjoy the research.


----------



## Archtkd (Dec 16, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> now that movie was hands down a WIN because of the Rhee brothers.... had they not been in it, it would have been another "B" budget 80's film.
> 
> Can I give them a 10th DAN for inspiring me?


 
Yes!!!


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 16, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> now that movie was hands down a WIN because of the Rhee brothers.... had they not been in it, it would have been another "B" budget 80's film.
> 
> Can I give them a 10th DAN for inspiring me?


 
You can do whatever you like, everybody else does. I am officially making you KING of giving out unofficial OFFICIAL 10TH DANS


----------



## d1jinx (Dec 16, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> You can do whatever you like, everybody else does. I am officially making you KING of giving out unofficial OFFICIAL 10TH DANS


 
_here ye here ye_.... 
I now pronounce ALL Martial Talk participants to be an Honorary 10th Dan Keyboard Master!!!!!!!
:asian:


Now pay me!


----------



## granfire (Dec 16, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> _here ye here ye_....
> I now pronounce ALL Martial Talk participants to be an Honorary 10th Dan Keyboard Master!!!!!!!
> :asian:
> 
> ...



YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!

aight, that's all I can afford.
Ok, I throw in some hot chocolate!


----------



## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

If I could I would give everyone 10th Dan, in the hopes that people could then relax and realize that when all is said and done, rank is meaningless. 

But oftentimes you have to go through the whole process of rank to realize that, which is why if everyone had 10th Dan, then hopefully they would be over it.


----------



## miguksaram (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> If I could I would give everyone 10th Dan, in the hopes that people could then relax and realize that when all is said and done, rank is meaningless.
> 
> But oftentimes you have to go through the whole process of rank to realize that, which is why if everyone had 10th Dan, then hopefully they would be over it.


My teacher, Sensei Sharkey, has a very similar outlook.  He has told me numerous times  that he would just love to give everyone who signs up a black belt their first day.  Then they could just focus on learning and not care about the belt anymore.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> If I could I would give everyone 10th Dan, in the hopes that people could then relax and realize that when all is said and done, rank is meaningless.
> 
> But oftentimes you have to go through the whole process of rank to realize that, which is why if everyone had 10th Dan, then hopefully they would be over it.


Couldn't agree more. 

All rank is essentially honorary. Hopefully, the holder of said rank is being honored for having mastered skills or for having made some contribution to the art, which Mr. Samarach certainly did. A tenth dan to a non practitioner raises my eyebrows, but lets be realistic; it is stated as being honorary, and regardless, the man isn't walking around claiming to be a taekwondo god.  And nobody is under the illusion that he is a taekwondo god.  

The only point that I really question is whether his individual contribution outstrips that of every other individual outside of Dr. Kim. 

Certainly, his contribution is historical, so from that perspective, yes, it is very important. And certainly it promotes the art (art *and* sport, so that everyone is clear what I mean) on a very broad level. 

Having said that, I still consider each school owner and each instructor who teaches the art day in and day out to be making the greatest contributions. And that goes for *any* art, not just taekwondo.

Daniel


----------



## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Having said that, I still consider each school owner and each instructor who teaches the art day in and day out to be making the greatest contributions. And that goes for *any* art, not just taekwondo.Daniel



Fair enough.


----------



## terryl965 (Dec 17, 2010)

Daniel you last statement I completely agre with.:asian:


----------

