# Strating your own System, That is the Question???????



## VSanhodo (Mar 30, 2005)

Hi Folks
I started another thread asking about being a Soke or Not and I recieved quite a few posts and a number of private E mails form ppl who frankly didnt like my posts and disagreed with some of the posts which other participants left.
Now Im not in this for a popularity contest, but one of the things that came out of the posts and E mails brought up a what I thought would be a good topic.

Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems. I have 4 questions.

1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??

2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?

3) What other requirements should a person have?

4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?

I look forward to your posts, all opinions and views are welcome.

Thanks

San


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## Poggy (Mar 30, 2005)

You mean starting up your own system?

Well... isn't that sort of what every martial artist does?! They use what works best for them! You need to use what works best for you.

Ranks... personally (no offence to anyone) but i don't see the point in ranks.
"Skill" will depend on how much you're willing to train, etc... not what colour belt you wear, etc.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 30, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems. I have 4 questions.
> 
> 1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??


 None



> 2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?


 None



> 3) What other requirements should a person have?


 A good instructor / coach 



> 4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?


 No

 Of course if you mean starting a traditional type style with a rank syllabus and list of techniques that is an entirely different matter.  And really, I think we got enough of those.


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## LT2002 (Mar 30, 2005)

If someone begins there own system the rank held is founder - period.


no dan
no grand pooba
just founder

why? who is going to grade you in your own style?


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## kamishinkan (Mar 30, 2005)

The questions asked in this thread, I am assuming, is for those who would like their art to be "credible" (to whom??). It seems that with all of the so called American masters that have went the way of the "pay for sponsorship" of modern martial arts (western based), has left EVERYONE who is not Asian in suspect. Although I am totally against the "get a a couple of ranks on your black belt and start your own system" approach, I am also just as against having double standards in that if you have an Asian last name and you live in Japan, (or elsewhere in Asia), no one thinks twice about this practice. I could mention a few people in Japan's history that is considered to be pioneers of Gendai Budo and if you looked at their training history....well if their last name was Smith in America, all of the "Budo Police" would be going crazy! 
To give an opinion to the questions,
1. Minimum rank......Menkyo Kaiden (Full Transmission of art) or equivalent or Soke Dairi Head Family representative) under a lineaged inheritor (Soke). 
2. Length of study.....Long enough to achieve these titles/ranks
3. What other requirements.....Legitimate reason for leaving style to found your own
4. Exam/Accredation Board....No, but the newly founded system should be backed/sponsored by an already known lineaged system.
Although there may be circumstances for systems to be founded with the founder having less than desirable credentials, this should be the exceptions not the "norm". These systems should also be judged with the same standards as older systems that were created, *If they stand the test of time....*
Just an opinion.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2005)

LT2002 said:
			
		

> If someone begins there own system the rank held is founder - period.
> 
> 
> no dan
> ...


If its your own style then couldn't the founding position be Grand Poobah? Or say Supreem Big Dog Extroirdinare.


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## searcher (Mar 30, 2005)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> If its your own style then couldn't the founding position be Grand Poobah? Or say Supreem Big Dog Extroirdinare.


I have always been partial to Big Cheese.:rofl:

On a more serious note I think they should ask themselves what is wrong with finding themselves a style that works for them.    If they feel they can't, then they will have to decide for themselves what they need to ctart the formation of their style.   I am sure nobody told Funakoshi, Aragaki, Chitose, Nakaima, or any other founder what was required of them to form their own style.


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## Aikia (Mar 30, 2005)

Vasahodo,
Anyone can start their own system on paper. The better question is "When does a system exist?". To become an art or system the style must endure the test of time. When you teach a system and you train black belts who then teach the original system with out changes to their own black belt students  that then teach students the same system without changes to the level of Black Belt then you have created a system.
Three generations of black belts are required to recognize an art or system. Not an easy task. When you have accomplished these requirements then you have a valid style and need no one's approval. Very few instructors can create styles...except on paper.


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## ginshun (Mar 30, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> I have always been partial to Big Cheese.:rofl:


  Once I start up my own system, I think Supreme Overloard will be my title.


 Seriously though, I don't know, but I do kind of like Aikia's idea of what an actual system is.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 30, 2005)

1.   Minimum of 5th degree in primary style and 3rd in 2nd style  various rank in the others



2.  30 years:   20 in one system minimum 10 in another,  various amounts(but none less than a year) in the others he/she is incorporating




Legitimate reason for leaving style to found your own,  be acknowledged by contemporaries as knowledgeable and with the ability to pass on that knowledge. 
 

4. No  because this again could result in a good old boys club  also I believe that if there where such a board then it should be comprised of people knowledgeable in the arts you had and be of an  open-mindedness and truthful enough to say yes you have developed something unique or  What kind of nonsense was that.  Where is your original blending and new techniques


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## ninhito (Mar 30, 2005)

question..whats wrong with making your own system even if noone els gets into it?  Then you could test it on the streets and change it or get into the kmilitary and use it then, ya' know experiment alittle or get your freinds that are dumb enough to let you try some things.  Then if you think its effective enough then you teach it to your kids, if you have any, or let it die with you...  I mean all systems started with someone thinking, "wow i can really kick some *** with this move, maybe i should upgrade it, make it better and put some other things in there to make it cool looking maybe or make it more simplistic yet more powerful."  It would be the same as an inventor or an artist...he doesnt need the publics approval many times... To make a system would like making your own suit of armor and own clothes and maybe your own mind set..only more physical right...also there is alot in a system so it would take along time to make it, right so that would be my menkyo kaiden, right...


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## Matt Stone (Mar 30, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems.



That's a big assumption, but let's run with it...



> I have 4 questions.



None of which are pertinent...  The answers only matter when you ask the right questions, and the four you listed are certainly not appropriate.

"Starting your own style" is a common myth among American martial artists, especially given the nature of our "new and improved" culture.  We take traditional, standard, tried and true products, repackage them in something shiny and new, and attempt to sell them to the relatively unsuspecting public as something "new and improved" (though that is usually *not* the case).

It has been stated that an art worthy of being considered "new" will stand the test of time, it will endure *decades* of trial, error and comparison long before it is unleashed on the public.  The art will withstand the scrutiny of outsiders, qualified or not, and will be shown to have genuine worth.  Further, it won't be simply a reorganization of old material - that isn't a "new" style, just another repackaging attempt gone awry.

Further, what are the qualifications and background of the "founder?"  I'm not talking ATA dan rankings, or the number of trophies someone has been awarded, but rather what constitutes the "founder" as someone capable of founding an art in the first place?  How long has he/she been training *as an adult*  (since MA learned as a child really don't carry much beyond athletic development over into adult MA practice)?

So perhaps you could answer the questions set forth above and outline why *you* think someone would be qualified to "found" an art...


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## terryl965 (Mar 30, 2005)

Please I invented my own system it's call COACH POtATOE, the whole idea of this form is to be lazy never get a job and live off the goverment, My poomse would be come out bow sit, burb and lay down  ans reach for the remote and turn it on.

I kmow sound stupid but i bet i can find a following, stick to Tradition and trainingwill be so much better.


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## TigerWoman (Mar 30, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Please I invented my own system it's call COACH POtATOE, the whole idea of this form is to be lazy never get a job and live off the goverment, My poomse would be come out bow sit, burb and lay down  ans reach for the remote and turn it on.
> 
> I kmow sound stupid but i bet i can find a following, stick to Tradition and trainingwill be so much better.



:rofl: Hey, I think you already have a following!  You don't even have to train for twenty-forty years!  Okay FWIW as they say:

The traditional martial arts have withstood the trial of time and endured. A  new system would have to prove itself.  TW


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 30, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> 1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??


I say 5th dan or at least 10 years



			
				VSanhodo said:
			
		

> 2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?


Ditto-10 Years



			
				VSanhodo said:
			
		

> 3) What other requirements should a person have?


Versitility in many applications of their previous art and have idea of other arts. 



			
				VSanhodo said:
			
		

> 4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?


If there was, whom would be put in charge of the accrediation?


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## still learning (Mar 30, 2005)

Hello, I would think if anyone wants to start their own style(stystem) would do it only if they think they can and want to. This person knows he must have the knowledge, skills, and leadership to make it work. Time in the field is a must. Can't put a number, but I would think at least many years. Have you notice the people who have started one, has made many changes as they grow.? This is the natural process for any head Sensi. 

 Doesn't this reminds you of a new business, many fail, but once and awhile a great one grows into history. Example Jeet kun do, BJJ, 

 Many times it is a person who just wanted to teach his own thing his way and broke away from the normal school he was at. ED Parker, and many others.

 There is no rules, anyone can open his own style. Success only comes with hard work/lots of luck too. Age is not important. (like opening your own business to teach anything).

 A teacher from school once told us " If you start a business and you get repeat business, you are doing something right, but if you don't get repeat business,you are doing something wrong. One can stay in business only if they are making money. Same with your own Stystem. .....Aloha


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## dubljay (Mar 30, 2005)

If one is going to create their own system that incorperates other arts/systems at what point does it differ from MMA and become its own system?  Furthermore if you are combining concepts of other existing arts how do they become "your" own concepts to form a different system? Perhaps I don't understand the common definition of system and MMA...







  -Josh


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 30, 2005)

Matt Stone,

So the questions are not appropriate....So the duration of time and/or knowledge are not a factor?

One question: _What other requirements should a person have?_, was approproate enough for you to reply thus:
_Further, what are the qualifications and background of the "founder?" I'm not talking ATA dan rankings, or the number of trophies someone has been awarded, but rather what constitutes the "founder" as someone capable of founding an art in the first place? How long has he/she been training *as an adult* (since MA learned as a child really don't carry much beyond athletic development over into adult MA practice)?_
The person starting this thread maybe searching for what people beleive to be personal guidlines or standards for creating a new art. So what would be yours?


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## MichiganTKD (Mar 31, 2005)

I have several problems with people claiming to start their own system:

1. Most "new systems" are merely mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.

2. Many people who claimed to have started their own style do so after having left or gotten kicked out of their original organization. You must ask yourself "Why did they get kicked out and would I really want to study under someone who has no credibility in their original organization?"

3. Most of these "new styles" have no real background, history, tradition, etiquette, or philosophy behind them. Yes, everything starts somewhere, but any legitimate style has a background to go with it.


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## The Kai (Mar 31, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I have several problems with people claiming to start their own system:
> 
> 1. Most "new systems" are merely mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.
> 
> ...


Oddly enough TKD is comprised mainly of Shotokan, with passing knowledge of a Native Tae Kyon, and of course the interpretting of a ancient Chinese treaty on the battle fiels arts.
When TKD was first formulating on the Korean soil, there was a hugh switch from Japanese customs to native customs.  So really the customs of TKD are what 5o-60 years old?


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 31, 2005)

In speaking of TKD, it had other arts and artists as a foundation. But what of the critieria of someone developing their own?


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## Bammx2 (Apr 1, 2005)

Ya know...
If you want to start a different system..go ahead.
 Just because its tradional and been around for 500 years..does NOT mean it's going to be effective in the 21 century.
God bless the forefathers! Without them,would not have the options we would have the options we have today!
The stick was first...the bow and arow followed...then one day..someone invented the .45.
But without the stick......
 Times change...needs change.
I have been in the martial arts for 30+ years and I do not teach traditional.
 What I have found most people are looking for is not a multi-century lineage.
What they ARE looking for is viable application and the instructors ability to TEACH!
 Just because a person has 10-20 years,or a high dan grade or associated with whatever organisation,does NOT make you a good teacher nor does it mean thier art will save you in a street fight.
 A lot of these guys think just because THEY did it...they can are great teachers.
Bull.
Expierience is an outstanding teacher,but does not MAKE you a good teacher.
 How well can you relay what you are teaching?
Are the techniques and information viable to what the people are looking for and need?
You will NOT please everyone,but can you give the information in the correct way to please the ones who do stay or are even interested?

A small tip...
 Find out who all the instucotrs are in your area.
If you can't satisfy everyone,you will be looked upon with more respect if you can send them to others who may be able to help them with what they are looking for.
And no...not all instructors do this!


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 1, 2005)

Unless you follow the steps you where taught and never varry you create a new system with each new thing you do. It may not be intentional but you have altered that which was given to you. Therefor we all in our own small way create new systems. This however is not the subject of the thread.

Now to give yourslef a title or expect others in the martial arts world to call you  by that title and proclaimyou as the head of your own system is different. Respect of the martial arts world should be something that is earned over time. What you do will need to be viewed by others over the years, as will the accomplishments of your students and theirs. If your teachings survive then maybe you did do something to have people say it was your system.
Can this be accomplished by someone with little or no training or even someone with only a few years of training? I personaly doubt it, because you may promote students quickly and they may do the same but will what your showing be around in 50 years? A firm background and knowledge of what and why  a technique is done and the ability to correct the small things  is learned over time not over night.

I may have wandered off trak of the original post so lets go back and try to answere the questions that where asked


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## VSanhodo (Apr 1, 2005)

Hi folks, 

Ive read everyonse post and have enjoyed all of the posts, please keep them coming. When I started this thread, I expected to get varied answers and I was not disappointed. Some views I agree with while others I totaly disagree with but still respect your opinions and welcome your posts.
I believe in the concept of O.A. (Original Art) all arts came from one art and have since then changed, been modified, etc. Just as I believe in Creation and evolution, I believe we were created and since then we have evolved, same with the arts.
Thanks again
San


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 1, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Hi Folks
> I started another thread asking about being a Soke or Not and I recieved quite a few posts and a number of private E mails form ppl who frankly didnt like my posts and disagreed with some of the posts which other participants left.
> Now Im not in this for a popularity contest, but one of the things that came out of the posts and E mails brought up a what I thought would be a good topic.
> 
> ...



1:  If you are starting your own system, why should you care about rank in other systems.

2:  Same answer as # 1.

3:  The only necessary requirement is a good marketing plan.

4:  There is.  It is called the Better Business Bureau.


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## Akashiro Tamaya (Apr 1, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I have several problems with people claiming to start their own system:
> 
> 1. Most "new systems" are merely mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.



Its obvious, I agree !  




			
				MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> 2. Many people who claimed to have started their own style do so after having left or gotten kicked out of their original organization. You must ask yourself "Why did they get kicked out and would I really want to study under someone who has no credibility in their original organization?"



Hmm, I could say the same with General Choi .....Althougt not kickout.  Getting kicked out is not a  measure of one credibilty.  In the last event with the WTF, the president was supposively convicted of "stealing " or Bribary or whatever the heck he did.    Should your credibilty be of the same ? 




			
				MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> 3. Most of these "new styles" have no real background, history, tradition, etiquette, or philosophy behind them. Yes, everything starts somewhere, but any legitimate style has a background to go with it.




Neither did Itosoh Ankoh, and the some of the Okinawan legendary teachers.  Keep in Mind that you can have all the lineage in the world.  Styles are what they are  styles, nothing more , nothing less.  It does not proved your ability as a martial artist as whole .


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## VSanhodo (Apr 1, 2005)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> 1: If you are starting your own system, why should you care about rank in other systems.
> 
> 2: Same answer as # 1.
> 
> ...


 
Hi and thanks for your post

I appreciate your input. There may be some confusion here, if you are saying ppl in general trying to start their system thats fine, But I in no way have ever said I want or feel I am in anyway remotely qualifed to start my system.

I must say, Though I appreciate your posts, I disagree with your post. Your outline isnt for a person qualifed to start to system, rather it is an outline for a cookie cutter school designed to rip off ppl by telling them a person has created a system, written a course outline and calls him or herself grand pooopa. 
I see alot of this in todays martial arts enviroment, I find it sad and while ppl like this do tend to make money they also give a bad name to legit martial artist. Hell, why not just go out and call yourself a doctor and perform open heart surgery. Either way you slice it BS is BS.
But once again, thanks for your views and post
Thanks
San


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 1, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Hell, why not just go out and call yourself a doctor and perform open heart surgery. Either way you slice it BS is BS.
> But once again, thanks for your views and post Thanks
> San


This is because there arent any mal-practice law suits against these Grand Poopas!


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## VSanhodo (Apr 2, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> This is because there arent any mal-practice law suits against these Grand Poopas!


Very good point. 

A few years ago I was fortunate enough to be invited to teach a seminar. When I arrived I gave two examples I would like to share with you.

I told students being a real estate agent is kinda of like being a martial arts teacher.
1) its an easy business to get into
2) its and easy business to say your in
3) its and easy business to get out of

In my business as a custom home builder I meet a lot of agents who love telling the wolrd they are real estate agents, they love showing only the real fancy houses then they rush out to tell all thier friends that they are agents and that they only show big exspensive homes , then pooof six months later they are doing something else. Ask ppl like this how many homes have you sold this year or last, UmmmmmAhhhhhh 2, 6 whatever the answer is it usually has more excuses than successes.
My point merely being, and one you have touched on. There simply is not the oversight in most states, citys, towns and or schools to ensure those who are opening schools even have close to legit credentials if any at all.
Imagine going to a doctor or lawyer who was just some guy off the street who felt like opening up his / her business only to find they were a decent biology studnet in high school. 
Again Way toooooooooooooooooo much BS artist out there opening schools and calling themselves GRan Super Doooper Master in Charge of The Traditonal schoool for eclectic beat the guy up next door Ryu.
Thanks again for your posts, I am enjoying everyones views, Remember nobody has to agree with you to post, All views are welcome.
Thanks
San


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 2, 2005)

Well, I have always viewed posts as:

A entitlement set by "rules", but a right to be exercised.

A view/opinion of personal expression.

A view/opinion of personal belief, held with confidence, but not neccessarily substantiated by positive knowledge or proof-therefore;

A view/opinion is not truely righteous or wrong.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 2, 2005)

*47MartialMan*  You stated a minimum requirement of 10 years time in training before a person was ready to start their own system.  Ive been studying for nearly 20 years in the same art, and I can state with a great degree of authority that there is still _at least_ another 10 years of training to go before I know enough about this art to decide, were I inclined to do so, what should be changed and what should be kept.

There is an old Chinese saying that for the first 10 years you are nothing but a beginner; after 10 years you are ready to begin the real learning.  How would that figure into your minimum requirement?



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, I would think if anyone wants to start their own style(stystem) would do it only if they think they can and want to. This person knows he must have the knowledge, skills, and leadership to make it work. Time in the field is a must. Can't put a number, but I would think at least many years. Have you notice the people who have started one, has made many changes as they grow.? This is the natural process for any head Sensi.



The problem with this is that ego gets in the way.  I heard it said once that a person who though they were eligible for sainthood is most likely ineligible.  I think that saying, slightly modified, applies here  The person that thinks they are a martial arts master is most likely in need of more training.  So the idea that a person who thinks they can do it probably shouldnt.  Often it isnt about can I but should I?  Just because a person can do something doesnt automatically imply that they should do something, and this is usually the case in martial arts.  After at least 5000 years of martial arts history, does some mini-mall karate teacher *really* think he/she has something new to add?  Especially when their combat experience is limited to light contact, point sparring tournaments?



> Doesn't this reminds you of a new business, many fail, but once and awhile a great one grows into history. Example Jeet kun do, BJJ,



Most fail, not many.  And those so-called new styles are typically nothing more than a fancy uniform for the teacher, reduced rank requirements, minor changes in forms that werent fully understood by the teacher in the first place, and a vigorous kids program to ensure solid income



> Many times it is a person who just wanted to teach his own thing his way and broke away from the normal school he was at. ED Parker, and many others.



Teaching something your own way is one thing.  I teach in a very similar fashion to my teacher.  Other instructors in our style teach in their own fashion.  But the material remains the same  And it is a change in the material, not the manner of its presentation, that causes a change in the system



> There is no rules, anyone can open his own style. Success only comes with hard work/lots of luck too. Age is not important. (like opening your own business to teach anything).



Age is *very* important.  A 20 year old lacks the life experience and wisdom of someone twice that age.  If age is unimportant, then why is voting restricted to 18 years and older?  What about firearm ownership?  These things are predicated upon the assumption that with age comes mature decision making, life experience and a relative degree of wisdom.

Any 20something teacher that opens his own style because in his/her vast experience (having been a black belt since age 8 and all) their martial arts training lacked something, is perhaps one of the biggest warning flags ever



> A teacher from school once told us " If you start a business and you get repeat business, you are doing something right, but if you don't get repeat business,you are doing something wrong. One can stay in business only if they are making money. Same with your own Stystem.



The difference here is that success in martial arts business is often based upon the ignorance of the public, not to mention that of the teacher.  The public doesnt know any different, they arent exposed to anything else, and the teacher certainly isnt contrasting his/her teaching with that of other instructors, so as long as the students dont get into a knock down, drag out fight, theyll believe whatever theyre told.

*47MartialMan*  My response upthread was more to indicate the inappropriateness of the question  Rank, certifications, etc., have absolutely no standard between arts, and as such saying you should be at least Xdan is ludicrous.  A 3rd dan in X art may well be light years beyond a 6th dan in another art, based solely on the content of the art and the requirements for that grade.

What do I think would qualify someone to start their own system?  Plenty of experience (decades, 2 or 3, of training at least); sufficient diversity of training, without compromising the integrity of that training, to a relatively high level of proficiency (by which a comparison between arts could be drawn with a satisfactorily high degree of correct understanding); plenty of time in developing the art before it goes public, so that the art is less a hodgepodge of patchwork teachings and more a comprehensive, integrated system of training.  Thatd be a start

*Bammx2*  You are correct that experience doesnt make you a good teacher.  Not all good martial artists/fighters are good teachers, no matter their skill.  However, a good teacher that has little actual knowledge and experience isnt really teaching all that much, is he?

*VSanhodo*  I dont know where you developed this O.A. concept, but unless you are talking about the very first hominid picking up a stick and whacking another hominid with it over a dispute regarding bugs to eat, I think you are proceeding from a flawed premise  Systematized fighting techniques, taught in a regular, disciplined, regimented fashion, would be developed by whatever culture/nation that needed them at the time.  I doubt that Roman boxing with cesti managed to be transferred to the Middle Kingdom in a method that had any influence on the development of empty handed fighting.  Likewise, native American fighting methods were probably not influenced by the fighting arts of the Egyptians  Your premise lacks something.  Perhaps you could instead consider the universality of the movement of the human body, that there are a limited number of footwork patterns, punching techniques, kicking techniques, joint manipulations, etc., and by that all arts have a similar originating basis.  But there was probably *not* one single art that gave rise to all the rest.  If you are teaching that to anyone, you are guilty of passing on a theory that isnt sufficiently well thought out

*OFK*  Nicely put!  Its odd, dont you think, given our history, that you and I agree on so much as of late?  Ya just gotta love it


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 2, 2005)

_ You stated a minimum requirement of 10 years time in training before a person was ready to start their own system. Ive been studying for nearly 20 years in the same art, and I can state with a great degree of authority that there is still at least another 10 years of training to go before I know enough about this art to decide, were I inclined to do so, what should be changed and what should be kept._
Yes I did state a least 10 year or 5th dan.....but to clarify not to start a art, but to start teaching on a professional scale.....


_My response upthread was more to indicate the inappropriateness of the question Rank, certifications, etc., have absolutely no standard between arts, and as such saying you should be at least Xdan is ludicrous. A 3rd dan in X art may well be light years beyond a 6th dan in another art, based solely on the content of the art and the requirements for that grade._
I see, and agree that X dan in one art is different than the same x dan in another, but I guess the pont I was making is the difference has to be WAY more than 5 years (per PM Red-D-D  )


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## VSanhodo (Apr 3, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Hi Folks
> I started another thread asking about being a Soke or Not and I recieved quite a few posts and a number of private E mails form ppl who frankly didnt like my posts and disagreed with some of the posts which other participants left.
> Now Im not in this for a popularity contest, but one of the things that came out of the posts and E mails brought up a what I thought would be a good topic.
> 
> ...


 
HI Folks
It seems we may have gotten alittle bit off track, I merely wanted to post this as a reminder of the original thread.
Thanks and please keep your posts coming.
San


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## Matt Stone (Apr 3, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> HI Folks
> It seems we may have gotten alittle bit off track, I merely wanted to post this as a reminder of the original thread.
> Thanks and please keep your posts coming.
> San



I don't think things are off track at all...  As I said upthread, the original questions aren't the ones to be asking, necessarily.  You are asking about specific qualifications, but then referencing 



> 1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??



Rank is subjective and dependent upon the art studied.  The requirement for "black belt" or an equivalent grading in one art may be light years beyond that required in another art.  Because of this discrepancy, the question is irrelevant and needs to be rethought...



> 2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?



Define "studied."  Studied under the direct supervision of a capable, qualified instructor?  Studied via seminar attendance and "personal practice?"  Studied via video tape and/or books?  "Studied" is again subjective and the question needs to be rethought...



> 3) What other requirements should a person have?



Like what?  Actual documented training to teach (be it collegiate, professional, or within the martial arts school?)?  And what qualification, then, is sufficiently high to qualify them fully?  Elementary school education?  Middle school?  Junior high?  High school?  College level?  What about medical training of some sort?  Do we stop at first aid and CPR, or is more required?  Are any of these requirements really appropriate?  If so, how would any one particular person enforce them (MAists aren't exactly the most fiscally sound, in my experience, and they are likely teaching MA to subsidize their income to one degree or another)?  Yet again, more thought needs to go into the question.



> 4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?



Who would man this board?  One of the fraudulent martial arts associations that grants "soke-ship" to anyone that pays their fees?  Please...  Or some external organization that has absolutely no knowledge of the workings of whatever system comes before them for evaluation?  Hardly...  More thought on this one, too...

I think the comments in this thread so far have been quite on track.  There is more to this topic than a quick answer to four simple questions.  Qualifications and authenticity in martial arts is our greatest strength and our most easily targeted weakness.  There are already far too many frauds and hucksters wandering about, living in their own fantasy world of martial arts mastery, making their students call them "master" in and out of class, bowing in and out of class, etc., for the martial arts world to tolerate another 20something know-nothing to "create" his/her "new" and "original" martial art.

There is little new under the sun...  I think that, for the most part, there are very few people knowledgeable enough, insightful enough, and educated enough to develop a "new" system.  It does happen, I'll admit, but nowhere near as often as instructors with "new" systems would have you think...


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## VSanhodo (Apr 3, 2005)

Hi again folks

Matt, Thanks for your posts, your views are always welcome and appreciated. 

In ref to your posts.

I do agree with you rank is subjective and clearly not all systems or ppl are going to have the same rank which would equal rank X in another system. I try when I start a thread to not be specific and ask general questions. My post merely asked what is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system? I dont see where this is a specific question. It is merely designed to get ppl to respond. I do see your point though.

Question 2: Again I see your point. Again questions are posted in my threads for generalities. If Im point blank specific for you or someone else it may not apply for others, so I think for the average person, the point to my quesion is clear to 99% of the ppl who read it. sorry its not clear for you but again I do appreciate your post.

Question 3: This quesion is pretty clear, but if you like I will use caps to spell it out for you.
WHAT OTHER REQUIREMENTS SHOULD A PERSON HAVE??
Hope that helps?
This questions is clearly subjective to whatever anyone would like to posts is fine. I dont care what ppl see as additional requirements, Its a question, it isnt hard.

Question 4: I do agree with you that there is more to this topic than 4 simple questions, No quesion about that. I see where you present numerous questions but few answers.

Thanks for your posts Matt, Your views are always welcome. I appreciate you taking the time to post. I think its fair to say I agree with most of what you have said but clearly disagree with others. Offer solutions to the questions, if your way is to present more questions and ridicule peoples threads that fine. We will simply have to agree to disagree on that point.

Thanks again

San


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## VSanhodo (Apr 3, 2005)

MATT, This is simply a question. I hope you get it.. Im new to this board.

What is Blades of Death Dojo Commissariat??????????


And are you a Minister???

Just asking


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## Matt Stone (Apr 3, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> I try when I start a thread to not be specific and ask general questions.



I guess I wasn't aware you were looking for a collection of opinions...  I misunderstood the intent of your original post.  Easy enough to do, what with the monotonal nature of electronic communication.



> Question 3: This quesion is pretty clear, but if you like I will use caps to spell it out for you.
> WHAT OTHER REQUIREMENTS SHOULD A PERSON HAVE??
> Hope that helps?
> This questions is clearly subjective to whatever anyone would like to posts is fine. I dont care what ppl see as additional requirements, Its a question, it isnt hard.



No need to get snippy...  In the time I've been online the issue of individuals starting their own styles of martial arts, as well as what constitutes the qualifications to do so, is a topic I've encountered all too often.  And, again all too often, it is a topic started by someone with designs on letting loose their earth-shattering insights on the general public.  As such, I'm usually reluctant to indulge someone on their fact finding mission to substantiate and validate their own desire to defraud the public.

I'm *not* stating, implicitly nor explicitly, that that is what you were doing when you started this thread.  Just stating the reason for my reluctance to specify things that may "qualify" someone...



> Question 4: I do agree with you that there is more to this topic than 4 simple questions, No quesion about that. I see where you present numerous questions but few answers.



I present few answers because there are few, if any, answers.  Starting one's own system of martial arts could be predicated on far too many criteria than could be fully oulined.  Further, there is the all too present argument regarding the luminaries of the past who started their own systems and their apparent lack of qualification to have done what they did (as measured by modern standards).

My answer to what qualifies someone to start their own system?  Nothing and everything...  How's that?  An answer as ambiguous as the topic itself...



> Offer solutions to the questions, if your way is to present more questions and ridicule peoples threads that fine. We will simply have to agree to disagree on that point.



Answering questions with questions is often the only path to understanding.  As I said before, the answer is only important in context with the correct question.

The answer is 39.  What is the question?

If I were simply ridiculing your post, everyone present would know of it.  Your condescension is neither welcome nor appreciated.  When I post, I very carefully craft what I write to say exactly what I intend it to say.  Sometimes there are layers beneath the obvious wording.  I won't insult your intelligence, however, by capitalizing my responses nor spoonfeeding them to you.  My responses stand as presented...

Lastly, sometimes there are no answers, only question upon question upon question...  It isn't always about the destination...

Enjoy.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 3, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> What is Blades of Death Dojo Commissariat??????????



The Blades of Death Dojo is a humorous construct of Phil Elmore.  A few years back, friends of Phil were "granted" titles and positions within this non-existent dojo.  All the titles and positions, in keeping with Phil's Guide to Internet Trolls and his overall approach to bad budo, were hilariously over the top.

A commissariat is an old Soviet-styled division or department within the government.  A commissar is typically a political officer, often empowered with the privilege of summary execution in order to enforce the party line.  A minister, in the political sense, is the director or chairman of a department...  Therefore, I am the "minister" of the Blades of Death Dojo's "commissariat," whatever that might be.

It is a bogus, made up, hoax title.  But thanks for asking...



> And are you a Minister???
> 
> Just asking



I'm ordained (if you could call it that) through the Universal Life Church...  And you can be, too.  Just spend about 10 minutes registering online, and you too will be "clergy."  I did it just to say I had.  I don't take it seriously at all, even though legally I can perform marriages, etc.

Enjoy.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Apr 4, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Hi and thanks for your post
> 
> I appreciate your input. There may be some confusion here, if you are saying ppl in general trying to start their system thats fine, But I in no way have ever said I want or feel I am in anyway remotely qualifed to start my system.
> 
> ...



No.  think it through.  If someone says "I'm a medical doctor" then you have an expectation of a certain education, apprenticeship, skill-level, code-of-conduct, and certification.  If someone says "I'm a PhD in a brand new subject that I just made up myself" then you should evaluate their knowledge based on whatever standard you like.


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## searcher (Apr 4, 2005)

You will need to improve on what you have and all all that you might be lacking.   Sounds simple,but it is pretty difficult to do.    Always keep in mind that all styles had to start somewhere,  they didn't just happen.   The key is systemizing what you have and passing it on.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 4, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> The Blades of Death Dojo is a humorous construct of Phil Elmore. A few years back, friends of Phil were "granted" titles and positions within this non-existent dojo. All the titles and positions, in keeping with Phil's Guide to Internet Trolls and his overall approach to bad budo, were hilariously over the top.
> 
> A commissariat is an old Soviet-styled division or department within the government. A commissar is typically a political officer, often empowered with the privilege of summary execution in order to enforce the party line. A minister, in the political sense, is the director or chairman of a department... Therefore, I am the "minister" of the Blades of Death Dojo's "commissariat," whatever that might be.
> 
> ...


 
I want a title in this....


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## Matt Stone (Apr 4, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> You will need to improve on what you have and all all that you might be lacking.



But does that make what you have _really_ a "new" system, or just the old system you learned, developed to a high degree of skill, with a few other skills added on top?



> Sounds simple,but it is pretty difficult to do.



I think that's everyone's general concensus...  Starting a new system, even when it is based upon the foundation of another art or arts, it is only the rare individual that is able to create something that is greater than the sum of its parts...



> Always keep in mind that all styles had to start somewhere,  they didn't just happen.   The key is systemizing what you have and passing it on.



Granted.  I don't think anyone would argue that point (and even if they did, they'd sound like fools...).  But the styles we have around today that are the product of a sole individual's efforts (as opposed to just having been handed down from a previous generation) are still extremely unique creations in the MA world...

Anyway...


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 4, 2005)

_But does that make what you have really a "new" system, or just the old system you learned, developed to a high degree of skill, with a few other skills added on top?_
Yes, like what "we have" been discussing red-D-D?


_But the styles we have around today that are the product of a sole individual's efforts (as opposed to just having been handed down from a previous generation) are still extremely unique creations in the MA world..._
Yes, but a little more than five years "total" martial art training is not enough?


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## James Kovacich (Apr 7, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I have several problems with people claiming to start their own system:
> 
> 1. Most "new systems" are merely mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.
> 
> ...


I think you're post would be more beleivable, in general terms if you switched the words many and most and replaced them with some  or maybe a lot.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 7, 2005)

Aikia said:
			
		

> Vasahodo,
> Anyone can start their own system on paper. The better question is "When does a system exist?". To become an art or system the style must endure the test of time. When you teach a system and you train black belts who then teach the original system with out changes to their own black belt students  that then teach students the same system without changes to the level of Black Belt then you have created a system.
> Three generations of black belts are required to recognize an art or system. Not an easy task. When you have accomplished these requirements then you have a valid style and need no one's approval. Very few instructors can create styles...except on paper.


Thats the best answer I've read here. The menkyo kaiden 30 years in 1 system and 20 in another that I've heard are not realistic because then then world really would have nothing new.

Some people are talented and some are not.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 7, 2005)

No, I would say most of the "new" styles I've had the misfortune to be introduced to, whether it's here or in a magazine ad, are exactly the way I've described. Either mongrel styles pieced together from from whatever experience the "Founder" had in different arts, or pale rehashes of existing arts. Maybe a few details have been changed depending on the "Founder's" background or preferences, but otherwise nothing truly innovative.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 7, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I think you're post would be more beleivable, in general terms if you switched the words many and most and replaced them with some  or maybe a lot.



I think that MichiganTKD's comments were right on the money...  Maybe they aren't all that politically correct, but they are accurate.

*Most*, not just "many" or "some" that start their own arts are:

- mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.

- created by people who left or werekicked out of their original organization. 

- devoid of any real background, history, tradition, etiquette, or philosophy behind them. 

There are many, many martial arts instructors, and only a very small handful have any insight worth speaking of.  Of that small group, only an even smaller number have the ability, much less the experience or training, to come up with something genuinely new and unique.  Of that small number, how many will attempt to develop something new as opposed to remaining within their main art to better that art instead?


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 7, 2005)

Wow, Matt agreed with me! Did the planets align and nobody told me?

Anyway, I could give you a rundown of some of the "new styles" people have undoubtably read about, and veerrrryyyy few, if any, could be considered truly original. Most are just mongrel styles or rehashes of what already exists.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 8, 2005)

_Who would man this board? One of the fraudulent martial arts associations that grants "soke-ship" to anyone that pays their fees? Please... Or some external organization that has absolutely no knowledge of the workings of whatever system comes before them for evaluation? Hardly... More thought on this one, too..._
Reminds of the government trying to come in and create a standard and faced with the same dilema


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## punisher73 (Apr 8, 2005)

> No, I would say most of the "new" styles I've had the misfortune to be introduced to, whether it's here or in a magazine ad, are exactly the way I've described. Either mongrel styles pieced together from from whatever experience the "Founder" had in different arts, or pale rehashes of existing arts. Maybe a few details have been changed depending on the "Founder's" background or preferences, but otherwise nothing truly innovative.


As are ALL martial arts.  None of the styles that we have today are "original" and had no influence from something else.  Even styles accepted today alot of times were looked down upon by the other styles when they were started.

Just some examples,  TKD is criticised because Gen Choi was only a 2nd degree blackbelt in Japanese karate before coming back to Korea and starting TKD.  Funakoshi was criticised for changing the katas to make it safer for school children and that he watered down karate.  Shimabuku was criticised for starting isshinryu and taking out the corkscrew punch among other things, even today I see Gojuryu people badmouth the style as incomplete.  Choki Motobu was criticised for being a fighter and not all the polish as other contemparies.  Ed Parker was criticised for what he did and many TMA's badmouth American Kenpo.  The Chinese MA's say that okinawans had watered down Kung Fu.  The Okinawans say that the japanese have watered down Karate.  I have read and seen ALL of these examples leveled at arts on forums such as this.

As my old roommate in college was fond of saying.  Everyone sucks to someone else.  That's what this boils down to, not whether the person is qualified but people just wanting to think that what they do is the best.


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## searcher (Apr 8, 2005)

punisher73 said:
			
		

> As are ALL martial arts. None of the styles that we have today are "original" and had no influence from something else. Even styles accepted today alot of times were looked down upon by the other styles when they were started.
> 
> Just some examples, TKD is criticised because Gen Choi was only a 2nd degree blackbelt in Japanese karate before coming back to Korea and starting TKD. Funakoshi was criticised for changing the katas to make it safer for school children and that he watered down karate. Shimabuku was criticised for starting isshinryu and taking out the corkscrew punch among other things, even today I see Gojuryu people badmouth the style as incomplete. Choki Motobu was criticised for being a fighter and not all the polish as other contemparies. Ed Parker was criticised for what he did and many TMA's badmouth American Kenpo. The Chinese MA's say that okinawans had watered down Kung Fu. The Okinawans say that the japanese have watered down Karate. I have read and seen ALL of these examples leveled at arts on forums such as this.
> 
> As my old roommate in college was fond of saying. Everyone sucks to someone else. That's what this boils down to, not whether the person is qualified but people just wanting to think that what they do is the best.















   Very well said.  You have made me think very hard about what "traditional" actually is.   

This is a question for the ones who train in a "traditional" martial art, as I consider myself.    What makes an art tradtional in your opinion?

Some food for thought on this subject.   Ryuei-ryu was not even heard of outside the Nakaima family for many years.  When presented to the public many of the masters of the day said it was not a traditional karate style.  Then Tsuguro Sakumato won the All-Okinawan Karate Championships and then they all thought otherwise.    We might all do well to look at those masters and their change of heart when we discuss this subject.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 8, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> I think that MichiganTKD's comments were right on the money...  Maybe they aren't all that politically correct, but they are accurate.
> 
> *Most*, not just "many" or "some" that start their own arts are:
> 
> ...



Do you have any scientific proof of this? If not, your "opinion" is no better than mine, and thats why I used the word *some.* 

So were Naha Te, Shuri Te and Tomari Te so differant. Did we need 3 styles at that time in such a small area?

And if they were. How did we come up with so many TRADITIONAL STYLES from these 3 styles? *Those damn mongrel traditionalist! See what they started!*

Freestyle martial arts are here to stay, like it or not. It soon will surpass boxing as "Americas fight pass time." Mr. Hayashi was teaching my brother in law in the '70's Kumiuchi, a martial art FOUNDED by Mr. Hayashi. My brother in law received his Shodan in 1976 in Kumiuchi, in which the reqirements were to be at least black belt level in Karate and at least a brown belt in Judo. Heres a quote from the late Mr. Hayashi from 1976 talking about his free form combat.
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

I know his system is one of the few good ones. You may not see it, but I saw first hand how Tarow and his son performed. Thats enough for me.

Evolution has it's place in the martial arts and who said mongrel styles are not efficient. Effientcy is a major player in the key to what works and what does not. Sorry bro, NOTHING in this day and age can be truly unique.

I think this American 10th degree HAS ALREADY PROVED that MONGREL styles, as you call them, work.  :uhyeah: 
http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-john_hackleman.htm


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 8, 2005)

10th Dan eh? Pardon me while I change into my hipwaders. It's getting a bit deep (and smelly!) in here.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 8, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> 10th Dan eh? Pardon me while I change into my hipwaders. It's getting a bit deep (and smelly!) in here.


Don't worry about the hip waders just yet. I don't think he was officially "passed the torch" but he was definately promoted to 10 Dan by his instructor the late Walter Godin who passed away shortly after.

*Also John Hackelmans Hawaiin Kempo IS THE ONLY Karate derived martial art that is battle tested and passed the test "in it's pure form" in the cage.*
 I haven't any seen other art do anything even close.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 8, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> 10th Dan eh? Pardon me while I change into my hipwaders. It's getting a bit deep (and smelly!) in here.


Heres their mission statement. :uhyeah: 

*- Mission Statement -

The Pit/Hawaiian Kempo is the ultimate in martial arts and fitness. 
We started in martial arts and fitness over 30 years ago, and have evolved into the most effective, functional, practical, proven, "state of the art" system of martial arts and fitness in the world today. 

The Pit is a blend of "old school" training, attitude, power and discipline combined with a "cutting edge" scientific, modern, result-oriented, tested & proven curriculum. The Pit's mission is to provide a vehicle for everyone of all ages to realize their full potential, get strong, be confident, get into great shape, make friends, and learn self-defense...while having fun."*


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 8, 2005)

Are we allowed to post martial arts schools and teacher whom we believe should not have created their own style, but did so?


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## James Kovacich (Apr 8, 2005)

It seems it might be on topic. But beware. Before slander, make sure you have good reason.

I posted The Pit because. it went along with creating a new system which he did. If you read the link I posted his art orininally was Kajukenbo


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 8, 2005)

I see. And surviving this "Pit" fits the definition of creating a new art eh? Gee, how many ads have I seen in Black Belt proclaiming "the most modern, effective, deadliest art in the world"? Too many to count, each more filled with hyperbole than the next.
What exactly is the difference between "Hawaiin Kenpo" and non-Hawaiin Kenpo? Or "Hawaiin Kenpo" and UFC?
And slander would be knowingly spreading a lie about someone verbally that harms their reputation. Trust me, this knucklehead doesn't need me to hurt his reputation. Guys like him are perfectly capable of making themselves look like doofuses.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 8, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I see. And surviving this "Pit" fits the definition of creating a new art eh? Gee, how many ads have I seen in Black Belt proclaiming "the most modern, effective, deadliest art in the world"? Too many to count, each more filled with hyperbole than the next.
> What exactly is the difference between "Hawaiin Kenpo" and non-Hawaiin Kenpo? Or "Hawaiin Kenpo" and UFC?
> And slander would be knowingly spreading a lie about someone verbally that harms their reputation. Trust me, this knucklehead doesn't need me to hurt his reputation. Guys like him are perfectly capable of making themselves look like doofuses.


Don't get to offensive. I was just saying speak some truth and not speculation.

If you clicked the link I provided you would already know that when he changed his systems name he (as he states it) used the M instead of an N bbecause his art always had some form of full contact in it and the Hawaiin Kenpo systems he felt were weaker from the traditional training involving Kata and such.

His instructor was one of the original Kajukenbo students and he recognized his students new version of Kempo and promoted him to 10th dan.

Hey you guys have your opinions about "the mongrel arts." I think it's appropriate to show whose system is TRULY FUNCTIONAL! :uhyeah:


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 8, 2005)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation on topic..-



> 1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??
> 
> 2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?
> 
> ...


Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 8, 2005)

I like the way Matt Stone had stated:
_There are many, many martial arts instructors, and only a very small handful have any insight worth speaking of. Of that small group, only an even smaller number have the ability, much less the experience or training, to come up with something genuinely new and unique. Of that small number, how many will attempt to develop something new as opposed to remaining within their main art to better that art instead?_
And thus is a grand pont.....


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## James Kovacich (Apr 8, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Hi Folks
> I started another thread asking about being a Soke or Not and I recieved quite a few posts and a number of private E mails form ppl who frankly didnt like my posts and disagreed with some of the posts which other participants left.
> Now Im not in this for a popularity contest, but one of the things that came out of the posts and E mails brought up a what I thought would be a good topic.
> 
> ...



Time in grade be reflected in ones abilities. They should have reason for "change" and hopefully some advice and guidance from "seniors" in the martial community.

(I just described myself) :uhyeah:


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 8, 2005)

I've never understood why in the world this should be an issue for anyone, especially not a relative novice who should have far more serious things to worry about.

Moreover, anybody who isn't just doing it for the money or for their own ego hasn't set out to become a master, or anything other than a good student, a good fighter, a good teacher.

They just got up one day, in a peculiar set of personal and historical circumstances, and whoops...


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 8, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I've never understood why in the world this should be an issue for anyone, especially not a relative novice who should have far more serious things to worry about.
> 
> Moreover, anybody who isn't just doing it for the money or for their own ego hasn't set out to become a master, or anything other than a good student, a good fighter, a good teacher.
> 
> They just got up one day, in a peculiar set of personal and historical circumstances, and whoops...


It is about ego and not knowledge that one creates a system in a short amount of time...


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## terryl965 (Apr 8, 2005)

1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??

2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?

3) What other requirements should a person have?

4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?

I look forward to your posts, all opinions and views are welcome
Answer
1)I do not believe rank is an issue, if you are high enough in your system why start a new one, the sole reason is ego and the in-ability to evolve your system.
2)Time is a venue that knowledge cannot exsist without, so to answer your question knowledge not time
3) Requirement for what to make up the old statement I've taken whay is good from other arts to develope mine, who needs requirements for this.
4)how can you test someone on there style read my earlier post about couch potatoes how can you judge that.
In the end the one's that I have seen developed there own style was fakers and those that can't cut the real world of MA. Just my humble opion


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## Shaolinwind (Apr 9, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Hi Folks
> I started another thread asking about being a Soke or Not and I recieved quite a few posts and a number of private E mails form ppl who frankly didnt like my posts and disagreed with some of the posts which other participants left.
> Now Im not in this for a popularity contest, but one of the things that came out of the posts and E mails brought up a what I thought would be a good topic.
> 
> ...


 I remember my instructor saying that anything in a system was at one time proven in mortal combat, a fight in which death is on the line.  The Russian special forces' system is a blend of several arts, but different enough to be recognised as its own creature. Though brand new in relation to ancient arts, its use by the Russian military's elite soldiers makes it safe to say it is proven functional in mortal combat.  How will you prove yours if you design one?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 9, 2005)

Chobaja said:
			
		

> 1)I remember my instructor saying that anything in a system was at one time proven in mortal combat, a fight in which death is on the line.
> 
> The Russian special forces' system is a blend of several arts, but different enough to be recognised as its own creature.
> 
> 2) Though brand new in relation to ancient arts, its use by the Russian military's elite soldiers makes it safe to say it is proven functional in mortal combat. How will you prove yours if you design one?



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I think the word mortal might be exaggerated a bit. Maybe in realistic situations might be a better scenario.

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]I am wondering when the last time the RSF were actually deployed in a combat zone AND actually used that art in hand to hand..most armies these days use long range weapons.guns, bombs, etc.


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## Shaolinwind (Apr 9, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)I think the word mortal might be exaggerated a bit. Maybe in realistic situations might be a better scenario.
> 
> 2)I am wondering when the last time the RSF were actually deployed in a combat zone AND actually used that art in hand to hand..most armies these days use long range weapons.guns, bombs, etc.


1) Mortal is by no means exaggerated.  Just pick up any history book.

2) You're suggesting that all modern day military actions and combat is on the open battlefield.

Anyhow that's not the point.  I am saying if something hasn't been proven then it's just theory.  Are you going to trust a theory to save your life?


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 9, 2005)

_Anyhow that's not the point. I am saying if something hasn't been proven then it's just theory. Are you going to trust a theory to save your life?_

Hmmmn, so the methods I have seen and used in actual combat/fights taught to me by a founder whom founded a system in 1975. Based off Chinese-70%, Japanese/Okinawan-10%, and Korean 20%...That this founder studied 25 years prior. That this founder has a "knack for applying tactical methods". Could this be considered as a "true creation"?


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## Cruentus (Apr 9, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies to this thread yet, but I feel I should respond because of what I do; and what I do could be contrived to be it's own "system."

First of all, it is worth saying that there is no standardization in the martial arts. Different styles have their own ways of standardizing what they do with belt systems, etc. But, none of this transfers over from system to system.

The bottom line is #1. that the person who represents a "system" is honest and ethical. No fabrication of credentials. #2. The system is effective, and can be proven as such through realistic testing, or from combat experience.

The rest, as credentials are concerned, is just gravy.

Now, the other aspect is, what do we mean by "system"?

I have broken this up into a few parts:

1. Traditional Art: A traditional art attempts to be contained within itself, as one of its goals is to maintain tradition, as well as combat effectiveness. Example: Karate could be considered a traditional art. What defines it's completeness is not that Karate covers every aspect of combat (firearms, modern weapon work, etc.), but its that within the tradition its meaning to preserve, it addresses combat as it applies to that tradition. Another example would be Balintawak eskrima. Balintawak is a stick deuling system, period. It preserves a Filipino tradition of stick dueling during the late 1800's to early/mid 1900's. It is a complete system in that it addresses every aspect of the 'eskrima stick' duel, but obviously it does not cover every single aspect of combat. That said, traditional arts are great for the developement of oneself both holistically and combatively; and what is learned through traditional arts is great for developing a combatant as a whole.

It would be very difficult to "make up" your own traditional art. By definition, you would have to inherit the cultural aspects of your tradition as well as the martial aspects. You would have to be very well versed in a particular fighting culture; and have set up a structure to preserve that culture. I would imagine that this would take decades of work for it to be legit, and even then this is questionable if one does not inherit the cultural aspects as well.

#2. Progressive Art: A progressive martial art is very much like a traditional system; the difference is within it's own structure, it is meant to evolve over time. Modern Arnis or JKD is a progressive system. In a progressive system the core concepts and premises and traditions of the art remain the same. But, progressive arts do not try to exist in a vacuum. These arts are designed to recognize the fact that different problems will require different solutions; so these arts try to stay "modern" in terms of these solutions. So the techniques, drills, and elements of a progressive art will change over time, but the core concepts are meant to remain the same.

A progressive art is much more user friendly to develop then a traditional art because of the fact that your not trying to contain a fighting culture within a vacuum. However, it is not an easy task in itself to develop a progressive art. One has to be highly developed as a martial artist in terms of skill AND curriculum developement and teaching ability., otherwise the main concepts of the art will not withstand over time.

#3. Personal fighting art: This is your own personal fighting system. THis is essentially "how you fight." This changes over time, as you develop skill.

Everyone who is a martial artist or combatant essentially is developing their own personal fighting art or system. Note that this system may or may not fit within the constrains of the broader system studied.

#4. Tactical System: A tactical system is much like a progressive art. The difference is it takes out the elements of "cultural tradition preservation" and "core concept preservation." This system is interested only in what is effective today. A tactical system evolves and changes over time, and as more effecient methods are developed. There is a core structure, and core concepts. But these are not necessarily designed to remain the same over time (even thought they often do). ANYTHING in a tactical system is subject to change as new things are learned, and as personal preferences enter the fray.

A tactical system is the easiest to start, but it is just as difficult to bring to a higher level of effectiveness as any of the other systems.

Something to keep in mind is that the stricter the "preservation" standards of the system, the more likely the art will be preserved over time, as common sense would have it. This is why Kung-Fu styles that are very strict traditional arts can remain relatively the same, or at least somewhat preserved, over many generations. Where as tactical systems, like Native American warrior arts, or European battlefield arts, or american gun fighting and street fighting systems, are often lost when its usefulness is not longer needed (or needed less), or changes so much from generation to generation that they "die" with each generation.

Bottom line: Whatever style or "system" that is made up, it must withstand the test under realistic testing situations; therefore, whoever makes it up pretty much had better know what the hell they are doing.

Paul


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## RRouuselot (Apr 9, 2005)

Chobaja said:
			
		

> 1) Mortal is by no means exaggerated.  Just pick up any history book.
> 2) You're suggesting that all modern day military actions and combat is on the open battlefield.
> 3) Anyhow that's not the point.
> 4) I am saying if something hasn't been proven then it's just theory.
> 5) Are you going to trust a theory to save your life?


 1) I have literally 100s of martial history books in English , Japanese as well as Chinese.and yes to say that each movement was tested and proven in mortal combat is a gross exaggeration of how many techniques were formulated. If you would care to give specific examples with dates and names of unarmed encounters that ended in death that can corroborate your claim I would love to see them. Please also give names of each technique and who they actually killed. If you cant then you are just repeating hearsay and not fact. I dont mean to knit-pick but I do get tired of reading these myths that are perpetuated from one generation to another. 

   2) I am saying actual hand to hand combat (empty hand) in war is extremely rare. 
  3) Actually no that is precisely the point. You have claimed that your teachers comment *anything in a system was at one time proven in mortal combat *is true. So I am asking you for information on the people that were killed in these fights to the death to support your comment. I am also asking for specific information on hand to hand combat in which the Russian Special Forces used their art in a war to actually kill someone. 
 4) Which is exactly why I am asking you to produce evidence to support the claims you have made about RSF and mortal combat. 
     5) No, but it would seem you are based on your willingness to swallow some of the theories you have espoused here.


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## VSanhodo (Apr 9, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Time in grade be reflected in ones abilities. They should have reason for "change" and hopefully some advice and guidance from "seniors" in the martial community.
> 
> (I just described myself) :uhyeah:


I see time in grade partly as ability but also as knowledge and the ability to convey or educate. I know a lot of ppl who are full of technique and thye have lots of flash. Some would call that ability, while others would call it BS. Me personally I prefer some abillity and lots of knowledge. One of my former instructors ( Shizyura Tanaka Sensei) god rest his soul, had at one point in his life awesome abilities. I always had and have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for him, his ability, skill and knowledge. As he got older his ability to do was clearly not what it once was. On the other hand I never once thought for a moment I could or ever would be able to compare to him. But what was by far more impressive to me, was his ability to educate students and show and teach them how their bodies and minds could make certain techniques work for them.
In todays society of overnight wonders and Wannabessss.
Where attaining Black Belt is merely attending class twice a week and pay your dues for 18 months and pooof you are an instant success. All to often students are told, Oooooo that technique would never work or their is no value in kata and where the vast majority of todays practitioners truly believe that being able to point spar and win trouphies is all that karate is all about. 
The value of being in a system and learning it as an art form is all but dead. I use to tell this story and I think it is fair to say Mr Tanaka would agree with the point.
If you are able to take 10 ppl and give each of them a sniper rifle and for sake of argument everything about the weapon, the rounds and distances are equal. You set up targets at 250 yds, 500 yds, 750 yds, 1000 yds and finally 1500 yds. Some ppl may be able to hit the closer distance targets but if you have one person who is able to score 100 out of 100 at 1000 or 1500 yds and the other 9 cant even hit the target, IT ISNT THE WEAPON ITS THE PERSON. Point being teach the art and teach the underlying principles. Their is nothing wrong with the technique its probably the instructor who does not understand how to perform it well themselves and therefor cannot teach it to his / her students and as an excuse simply says it does not work or has not use or value. The techniques of old work fine, its not the techniques fault the person cant do them. Thats like saying its the rifles fault that the shootist couldnt hit the broad side of a barn.
Abilty vs knowldege, A never ending debate. Me personally I prefer knowledge, with knowledge a persons abilities can be taught and honed.
Thanks again for everyones post and please keep them coming.

San


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 9, 2005)

While I know there will be exceptions to this, here's a basic rule: any time you run into a "master," or a dojo that claims, "We taught the Navy SEALS!" or, "Combat secrets tested on the battlefield!" you should immediately walk away. Or run, if necessary.

Martial arts teach skills and disciplines that, of course, are useful in war. No question about that. But these hand-to-hand combat fantasies--since 18th-century Japan, modern armies have more and more taught that if you have to fight hand-to-hand, somebody screwed up. Badly. And for that matter, even the Japanese arts always taught that you were nuts to step onto a battlefield without a weapon.

Nor do modern special forces types, "fight," hand-to-hand, except in an emergency. What they train to do is to sneak up in the dark and stick a knife in your neck when absolutely necessary, or even better to get in real close and shoot the crap out of you and your friends before you can react, or even better to snipe you from as far away as possible, or best of all to put a laser designator on your house and have you blown up by something dropped from an airplane.

It's the same stuff these guys have been working on since at least Fairbairn. "Fighting," isn't even the right word--you need something like, "erasing," or, "killing." 

In civilian martial arts--and they are all civilian martial arts, no matter what anybody tells you--there is a similar distinction between "fighting," in the sport arts, and, "self-defense," martial arts study.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 9, 2005)

_I have literally 100s of martial history books in English , Japanese as well as Chinese._

Wow-I thought I had a "mini-library" going...

Name some book titles.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 9, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> _I have literally 100s of martial history books in English , Japanese as well as Chinese._
> 
> Wow-I thought I had a "mini-library" going...
> 
> _* Name some book titles.*_


   Wow, with such a polite request like that how can I refuse...


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## RRouuselot (Apr 9, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 1)While I know there will be exceptions to this, here's a basic rule: any time you run into a "master," or a dojo that claims, "We taught the Navy SEALS!" or, "Combat secrets tested on the battlefield!" you should immediately walk away. Or run, if necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 1)True, true, true. If I really felt like stretching the truth to fit some agenda I could say I have taught US Army Rangers and Special Forces.it wouldnt be a lie since I have taught a few individuals that just happen to be in those groups but it would be miss leading and make it sound like I taught their units as part of an organized plan put out by the Army..which just aint so. 

 2) Couldnt agree more. Any soldier or marine that loses their weapon should go join the French Military. In fact marines can be Court Marshaled for losing their weapon. 

 3)I got to see a demonstration of a chain gun mounted on an airplane with laser guided tracking. According to the demo those guns can hit a target the size of your hand from about 5,000 feet upat night. Here is a nice video clip of one in action mounted on the side of a Helicopter. http://www.wimp.com/chaingun/ 



    4)True.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 9, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 3)I got to see a demonstration of a chain gun mounted on an airplane with laser guided tracking. According to the demo those guns can hit a target the size of your hand from about 5,000 feet upat night. Here is a nice video clip of one in action mounted on the side of a Helicopter. http://www.wimp.com/chaingun/



Fight Fire With Fire by Metallica was about as perfect of background music as you could get...


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Fight Fire With Fire by Metallica was about as perfect of background music as you could get...


Hmmn, what has this do to with starting a system????


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## Makalakumu (Apr 9, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Hmmn, what has this do to with starting a system????



You have to click and watch the link that Robert provided.  The chain gun is an amazing peice of technology and the music pretty much sums up the action.

As far as starting your own system goes, I think the link pretty much shows that people who promote themselves by saying that they teach the military how to fight hand to hand are most likely frauds.  Modern warfare is way beyond hand to hand.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> You have to click and watch the link that Robert provided. The chain gun is an amazing peice of technology and the music pretty much sums up the action.
> 
> 1) As far as starting your own system goes, I think the link pretty much shows that people who promote themselves by saying that they teach the military how to fight hand to hand are most likely frauds. Modern warfare is way beyond hand to hand.



   1) Its kind of ironic though that there is a big push in the Army and Marines to learn H 2 H combat. The Marines have developed a system (which is quite practical BTW) and the Army has started requiring all or most of its units to practice H 2 H as part of their PT once a week. I know this because I was teaching several units. Having said that, most of the programs taught are emphasize more Police like techniques rather than mortal combat stuff. I am guess this is due to the fact they may be called to Iraq and have to use technique to detain people.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 9, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Its kind of ironic though that there is a big push in the Army and Marines to learn H 2 H combat. The Marines have developed a system (which is quite practical BTW) and the Army has started requiring all or most of its units to practice H 2 H as part of their PT once a week. I know this because I was teaching several units. Having said that, most of the programs taught are emphasize more Police like techniques rather than mortal combat stuff. I am guess this is due to the fact they may be called to Iraq and have to use technique to detain people.


Sad-how military hand tactics and reasons for being deployed becomes more like police (and police action) each decade


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Fight Fire With Fire by Metallica was about as perfect of background music as you could get...


Why is this freaking you out


check this:

http://www.montysminiguns.com/RealityPage.htm


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## Makalakumu (Apr 9, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Why is this freaking you out
> 
> 
> check this:
> ...



Oh, I'm not freaked out.  I'm an old school metal head.  I heard the song and felt the head start banging of its own accord.  My expression was appreciation...

Also, I think that these clips illustrate exactly why the military practices police compliance techniques.  There are other, much more effective, deadly means of force at their disposal.

Anyway, new systems, approach with caution and skepticism.  The above provides some good critical thought information when one is evaluating so called military arts.


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## Cruentus (Apr 10, 2005)

Here is a good GENERAL assessment:

The best Long Range Warfare tactics and long gun tactics can be found in the military.

The best Pistol tactics and subject control techniques can be found in Law Enforcement.

The best Empty Hand and and non-firearm weapon tactics can be found in the civilian sector.

This only makes sense given the combat needs of each group. So if civilains want to learn good pistolcraft, it would be good for them to seek knowledge within the LE community. If Military feels they need better H2H tactics or knife tactics, or improvised weapon tactics, they would do well to seek training from the civilian sector. And so on.

There are obious exceptions to these 'rules,' but these are good general assessments.

One thing about military H2H is that a lot of what is taught is taught to build moral and confidence over effectiveness. This is because as other posters have mentioned, H2H is not nearly as important for the military as the other aspects of combat. This is why the army moved to a more BJJ curriculum over the old WWII combatives. The WWII combatives are clearly more effective then the current program when considering their needs, but the BJJ curriculum allows them to competition grapple, which acts as a great moral and comradory builder.

Paul


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 10, 2005)

Good.

But, everything has a place. In my norm, I have studied and work on two of the three.


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## D.Cobb (Apr 11, 2005)

I don't see anything wrong with starting your own system as long as the reasons for it and the principles upon which it is built, are valid. That is, if you can see a better way to build a mouse trap, then do it. But if it's just so you can call yourself "Grandmaster" or "Soke", for personal gratification that comes with wearing rank, then it's all wrong, and nothing you teach can make it right. 
If the principles are based in technique and physics relating to body mechanics, then OK, but if it relies purely on physical strength and brute force then, No, it's all wrong.
Also, I think it is ok to teach what you know, even if it is a mixture of systems, so long as you are honest about where it comes from. That is, if you learnt your stuff by watching videos and reading books, and ended up with a fairly decent system of self defense, then admit you got it from books etc. Don't try telling people it's a 2000 year old system of martial arts handed down from father to son blah blah blah ala Frank Dux ad nauseum ad infinitum.
Above and beyond everything else be honest about it.

--Dave


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## RRouuselot (Apr 11, 2005)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> I don't see anything wrong with starting your own system as long as the reasons for it and the principles upon which it is built, are valid. That is, if you can see a better way to build a mouse trap, then do it. But if it's just so you can call yourself "Grandmaster" or "Soke", for personal gratification that comes with wearing rank, then it's all wrong, and nothing you teach can make it right.
> If the principles are based in technique and physics relating to body mechanics, then OK, but if it relies purely on physical strength and brute force then, No, it's all wrong.
> Also, I think it is ok to teach what you know, even if it is a mixture of systems, so long as you are honest about where it comes from. That is, if you learnt your stuff by watching videos and reading books, and ended up with a fairly decent system of self defense, then admit you got it from books etc. Don't try telling people it's a 2000 year old system of martial arts handed down from father to son blah blah blah ala Frank Dux ad nauseum ad infinitum.
> Above and beyond everything else be honest about it.
> ...


  Dave, 

  I agree. My main dislike is the folks that lie about or feel the need to make up where they got their training. 
 I have no doubt there are systems out there that have been put together and are effective......it's just the ones that feel the need to tag on stupid misused titles, false history, bogus claims and all the other useless baggage that lose my respect.
 If they would just say something like "hey, I have studied this and that for XXXX amount of time, I make no claims it is better than anything out there. 
  (because we all know it's not the art but the artist that makes it effective)
 I would respect such a person and be interested in what they do far more than the blow hard that feels he needs to pad his resume with nonsense because it is the blow hard kind of person that disrespects his fellow martial artist.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 11, 2005)

Yes, it is shameful when someone is mislead into an art, only to never realise and/or realise much later, that there isn't an exact lineage. They either have to drop out or move on to study other arts and strengthen their abilities. Those that move on, are observed for their courage, abilities, confidence, and integrity. They are also recognized by their immediate peers. As there may be some whom believe there should be a standard on how one should be a creator of a art. I guess this was no different than martial arts in the past. I view progression like a scholastic grading and then into the "social world"


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 11, 2005)

Don't teach your own system by proclaiming yourself 10th Dan Head Founder of it (You hear me World Head of Family Soke?). Be honest. Say what your background is, what you teach and why. Then let time and circumstances decide whether you succeed or fail.


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## The Kai (Apr 11, 2005)

MTKD has a good point, maybe you did come up with something new or a novel twist.  Teach it as best you can, let your downline speak for your insight


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## James Kovacich (Apr 11, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Don't teach your own system by proclaiming yourself 10th Dan Head Founder of it (You hear me World Head of Family Soke?). Be honest. Say what your background is, what you teach and why. Then let time and circumstances decide whether you succeed or fail.



You seem to be pretty down on these Grandmasters. Would you care to name the ones who are "un-deserving and why?"
http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/

I'm sure there are more reasons that are better why and why they should be than you can come up with that they shouldn't.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 11, 2005)

You might want to put such names in the Horror section but be sure you have all your facts correct befor you go nameing names


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## James Kovacich (Apr 11, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> You might want to put such names in the Horror section but be sure you have all your facts correct befor you go nameing names


I agree.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 12, 2005)

I'm not going to name names, because I don't want to get into a name calling session. However, a look at the biographies of many of these "Masters" and "Grandmasters" will reveal honorary black belts up the wazoo, self bestowed 10th Dans, and Master-level ranking in 6-7 different arts. One member is listed as 10th Dan in kickboxing. Draw your own conclusions.
For example, one of the Tae Kwon Do Instructors lists in his biography that he studied under Dr. Un Yong Kim, former President of the WTF. To my knowledge, Dr. Kim has never taught TKD. He was the administrator of the WTF and Kukkiwon, but did not seriously practice Tae Kwon Do. So aside from being an alleged Grandmaster, he is also a liar.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I'm not going to name names, because I don't want to get into a name calling session. However, a look at the biographies of many of these "Masters" and "Grandmasters" will reveal honorary black belts up the wazoo, self bestowed 10th Dans, and Master-level ranking in 6-7 different arts. One member is listed as 10th Dan in kickboxing. Draw your own conclusions.
> For example, one of the Tae Kwon Do Instructors lists in his biography that he studied under Dr. Un Yong Kim, former President of the WTF. To my knowledge, Dr. Kim has never taught TKD. He was the administrator of the WTF and Kukkiwon, but did not seriously practice Tae Kwon Do. So aside from being an alleged Grandmaster, he is also a liar.


   Well I saw 2 individuals on there that are dubious.

   One guy belonged to a Japanese Org. years ago and was promoted to shodan or there about and claimed at one time to be the US Rep. for said Japanese Org. but was later given the boot for being at total nut job..not to mention a bold face liar.

   The other individual went around Okinawa kissing *** and throwing money around to get up to a 6th dan but I see now he is also a Grand Master.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 12, 2005)

And that's just two guys. Imagine what the rest of them are like. But you know, birds of a feather flock together.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

I think the thead is about certain criteria or ideas on how one can start their own system and not debunking or fraud busting others.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> And that's just two guys. Imagine what the rest of them are like. But you know, birds of a feather flock together.


 And those 2 are some of the better known, and dare I said "respected", people on there.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I think the thead is about certain criteria or ideas on how one can start their own system and not debunking or fraud busting others.


 I think you fail to see the point. Nobody is "fraud busting". 
 This th*R*ead is about starting your own system and some if not most of the yahoos on that website have started their own system. People are commenting on those that have started their own systems as an example of some of the criteria people have used to do just that.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

And what has this to do with the thread originator's questionaire?


_Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems. I have 4 questions.

1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??

2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?

3) What other requirements should a person have?

4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?_


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> And what has this to do with the thread originator's questionaire?


 You may want to read the thread more carefully before you comment.
 The question was raised:



			
				akja said:
			
		

> *You seem to be pretty down on these Grandmasters. Would you care to name the ones who are "un-deserving and why?"*
> http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/
> 
> _* I'm sure there are more reasons that are better why and why they should be than you can come up with that they shouldn't.*_


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> So were Naha Te, Shuri Te and Tomari Te so differant. Did we need 3 styles at that time in such a small area?


  You might want to research this a bit more.
 Those three "styles" didn't come about until it became "political" and there was some sort of need to separate them........this happened about 1900. Before that there is not much, if any, evidence to show there was such a thing as Naha, Tomari, and Shuri styles.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I think you fail to see the point. Nobody is "fraud busting".
> This th*R*ead is about starting your own system and some if not most of *them* on that website have started their own system. People are commenting on those that have started their own systems as an example of some of the criteria people have used to do just that.



I agree with that much.

That Shodan reached 5th Dan before coming back to the USA, in the '50's. A lot has happened since then. I have have access to documentation but all documentation that has been presented to the public states he was 5th Dan before coming back to the USA. He was "Man of the Year" I beleive last year in Black Belt mag. and they stated that too in his bio.

Also his student was promoted to 3rd Dan from Yamaguchi in Japan as well.
He was master ranked. The issues above that are what is in dispute but that was half a century ago. A lot has happened since then.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I agree with that much.
> 
> 1) That Shodan reached 5th Dan before coming back to the USA, in the '50's. A lot has happened since then. I have have access to documentation but all documentation that has been presented to the public states he was 5th Dan before coming back to the USA.
> 
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I know what he claimed as well, but rank you give yourself doesnt count for much.  

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Black Belt is a crap magazine that runs sensationalistic journalism type articles to sell magazines. So getting an award from them is like getting one from The National Enquirer. The Asian Journal of Martial Arts is a far better magazine with more fact based writing. 



   He was booted out of the organization he claimed rank from because he was a nut, and went around making things up that more fantasy than fact. 

   Yamaguchi son used to teach in my home town by the way.just an FYI.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 12, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I agree with that much.
> 
> That Shodan reached 5th Dan before coming back to the USA, in the '50's. A lot has happened since then. I have have access to documentation but all documentation that has been presented to the public states he was 5th Dan before coming back to the USA. He was "Man of the Year" I beleive last year in Black Belt mag. and they stated that too in his bio.
> 
> ...


I meant to say:
I *DON"T* have access to documentation but all documentation that has been presented to the public states he was 5th Dan before coming back to the USA. He was "Man of the Year" I beleive last year in Black Belt mag. and they stated that too in his bio.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I know what he claimed as well, but rank you give yourself doesnt count for much.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Black Belt is a crap magazine that runs sensationalistic journalism type articles to sell magazines. So getting an award from them is like getting one from The National Enquirer. The Asian Journal of Martial Arts is a far better magazine with more fact based writing.
> 
> ...


Gosei did not come to the USA until around 1966. Hanshi was promoted to 3rd in 1963 from Yamaguchi. Why would Yamaguchi promote Hansi to 3rd if Hanshis instructor was not a high enough rank to bring him up in the first place.

I've read about Gosei coming to the US to clean things up. But he came later.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I meant to say:
> I *DON"T* have access to documentation but all documentation that has been presented to the public states he was 5th Dan before coming back to the USA. He was "Man of the Year" I beleive last year in Black Belt mag. and they stated that too in his bio.


   If we are talking about the same person I think he died last year or the year before. 

   He is also the author of a book where he claims all sorts of nonsense like Choki Motobu was 7 feet tall. Paaaalease 

   As I said before, Black Belt magazine is a tabloid MA magazine geared towards wannabes and teenage boys dreaming they can some how turn into Bruce Lee or Sho Kasugi.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> If we are talking about the same person I think he died last year or the year before.
> 
> He is also the author of a book where he claims all sorts of nonsense like Choki Motobu was 7 feet tall. Paaaalease
> 
> As I said before, Black Belt magazine is a tabloid MA magazine geared towards wannabes and teenage boys dreaming they can some how turn into Bruce Lee or Sho Kasugi.


Yes the same guy. I do know that he has passed on a fairly large organization. I think I saw that book but look at the times. books were full of fiction and Americans new pretty much nothing about the arts. I've heard he was a great fighter.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I've read about Gosei coming to the US to clean things up. But he came later.


   He came to replace the person we are discussing. 
 The Honbu was unaware for years what kind of garbage was being propagated in the US.

   Its funny.a few years ago I ran into a guy that trained in Japan at the same time as the person we are discussing. His comment about said person was he was a loud mouth little geek that needed a good *** beating, unfortunately he never would step up to the plate

    The man was not well respected in Japan by his peers.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Yes the same guy. I do know that he has passed on a fairly large organization. I think I saw that book but look at the times. books were full of fiction and Americans new pretty much nothing about the arts. I've heard he was a great fighter.


   Rod Socharnoski has a large Organization too..and he has been proven in a  US court to be full of it.  

 Actually there were several Americans that were around before and long after said individual left Japan. A guy named Brown (forgot his first name) and Don Draeger comes to mind. Dreagers books have some minor flaws but by and large are quite good. So you see there were some very good books being published at the same time.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> He came to replace the person we are discussing.
> The Honbu was unaware for years what kind of garbage was being propagated in the US.
> 
> Its funny.a few years ago I ran into a guy that trained in Japan at the same time as the person we are discussing. His comment about said person was he was a loud mouth little geek that needed a good *** beating, unfortunately he never would step up to the plate
> ...


Why would Yamaguchi take in his student?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Why would Yamaguchi take in his student?


    The man is dead so I cant really ask him.

      However maybe he thought he could straighten him out and put him on the right path.

      As for Yamaguchi..well there is a whole other can of worms.

 There are claims he killed a tiger with his bare hands.BULL!

      Conveniently nobody can confirm he did this. 

      I saw Yamaguchi demo on a couple of occasions. Talk about crap.

      The guy was performing a kata forgot the kata in mid performance and then just sort of made up the rest as he went along!



      Birds of a feather I guess.

   Here is a bit on Yamaguchi:

The Life Story of Karate Master
*Gogen Yamaguchi
*by Graham Noble


Some readers may have seen a movie which came out a few years ago (1976), entitled "Way of the Sword." It was only a short film, a supporting feature, but it was about the traditional Japanese budo. Various martial arts were shown such as aikido, kendo, and kusarigama but the most intriguing part was the short section on karate, because this featured Gogen Yamaguchi, the headmaster of the Japan Karate-do Goju-kai (Goju Association).

*Gogen Yamaguchi was shown sitting in front of a crystal ball. He performed various mudras (mystic hand movements) in the direction of the crystal ball, while doing special breathing exercises. He beat on a drum to summon up the spirits. According to the narration, Yamaguchi uses the crystal ball to communicate with the spirits of fighters past and future. They give him their secrets.
*
 Yamaguchi was also shown doing Tensho kata, a slow, breathing form of the Goju style--I was unfamiliar with the Goju style at this time, and I thought the breathing method looked forced and unnatural--and then two young instructors from the Goju-kai did an exhibition of free style sparring. This looked good, fast, continuous, and with a sharp staccato-type of power. In fact, it was nice to watch--exciting and varied. The fighting was carried out at a little closer distance than, say, in the JKA or Wado-ryu, and the two karatemen stuck to basic fast and strong attacks, with both hand and foot. The blocking was sharp and performed with the open hand. No doubt these two had sparred many times, and it was only a demonstration but still quite impressive.

 It was difficult to know what to make of this glimpse of Master Yamaguchi, but he did have "charisma." He always wears traditional Japanese dress. And, although he wears his hair long, this does not make him look up to date, but more like some Yamabushi (mountain warrior) from days gone by, transported incongruously to the Tokyo suburbs. I knew that he was a sort of semi-legendary karate master, a practitioner of yoga and a priest of the Shinto religion. In person I had heard he was generous and helpful.

*Peter Urban, in his book "Karate Dojo" tells a story about how Yamaguchi had killed a tiger bare-handed (throttling it to death), but this seemed hard to take.* All-in-all I didn't know much about this particular karate master, and so I was pleased to obtain some time later, a copy of Gogen Yamaguchi's autobiographical book Karate: Goju-ryu by the Cat.

 "The Cat" is Yamaguchi's nickname. There are several reasons given for this, such as his long hair, which resembles a lion's mane, his movements which resemble those of a cat, or his use of the cat stance in sparring. Yamaguchi himself explained it to interviewer Rolland Gaillac, of the French magazine "Karate" (April 1977 edition), in the following words: "Even today, young man, if you were to face me in combat, I would be able to determine in a second the strength of your Ki. Immediately I would know if you were a good opponent. It is this quality, and no other, which has given me the name of The Cat."

   In "Karate: Goju-ryu by the Cat," Yamaguchi tells his life story. It seems that he has been a mixture of karate expert, man of action, and mystic. In the late 1930s and early 1940s he had been a Government administrator in Manchuria. After World War ll ended he had served time as a prisoner of war in a Russian labour camp. When he finally returned home he had been deeply upset by the state of post-war Japan, and it was only after he had received a "divine revelation" that his life was given fresh direction.

 Since Yamaguchi's autobiography is not generally available, I have tried to retell his story, and the following owes a lot to the information contained in his book.

 1909 was the year of Gogen Yamaguchi's birth, Kyushu in Japan the place. He was one of ten children. He writes that his father sold miscellaneous goods, and later opened up a private school, so it seems as if there was no recent tradition of martial arts in the family. However, from an early age Yamaguchi was fascinated by judo, kendo, and the other martial arts.

 In his second year of primary school, he began learning Jigen-ryu Kenjutsu (a famous school of Japanese fencing). Later he met a Mr. Maruta, a carpenter from Okinawa, who taught him the basics of karate. Young Yamaguchi practiced fencing during the day, and karate at night. His only interest was in getting stronger and stronger, and he was well pleased with the results of his karate training: "I found my physical condition entirely changed after a few years of karate training. My legs and loins became stronger and my muscles and bones were greatly developed. Above all, I found myself ready to defend and counterattack at any instant."

 After finishing school, he went on to Ritsumeikan University in Kyoto, which in the 20's and 30's was more or less a college for training administrators for Japan's "conquered territories." Evidently, Yamaguchi had previously been expelled from Kansai University because of "roughness."

 In Kyoto, he began teaching karate in his spare time and later, in 1930, (age 21) opened a karate club at Ritsumeikan University. Judging from his book, trouble seemed to follow Yamaguchi around in those days. He and his karate group had various physical confrontations with other martial artists, and gangs of toughs. When "leftist" groups started causing trouble at the University, Yamaguchi and his friends drove them off the Campus. "I was rough and thoughtless," he remembers of these times.

*In 1928 Chojun Miyagi had visited Japan to teach his style of karate, the Goju style. (He had taught in the Judo Club of Kyoto University). He came back to teach in Japan on other occasions, and in 1931, Gogen Yamaguchi was introduced to him. In his autobiography, Yamaguchi puts these words into Chojun Miyagi's mouth: Ô"Mister Yamaguchi, you are well qualified to be the successor of Goju school karate. I have nothing more to teach you." Thereby, we are led to believe, Yamaguchi was designated as Miyagi's successor in Goju ryu.

 Whether Miyagi ever said this is something we can hardly prove or disprove. However, it irritates some of the Goju men on Okinawa to hear Yamaguchi described as Chojun Miyagi's karate successor, since Miyagi was never in Japan for periods of longer than two or three months. By far the larger part of his teaching was carried out in his native Okinawa. In view of this it may be doubted whether Yamaguchi ever learned the whole of the Goju system from Miyagi; and it may well be, as some say, that he picked up the complete range of Goju kata later from students of Miyagi such as Meitoku Yagi.
*
 When Yamaguchi first began teaching karate, his training was regarded as pretty wild. Some of the other schools thought it was like "street fighting," and according to his son, Gosei Yamaguchi, he (Gogen) more or less "invented his own way of working out"(see notes) Gogen Yamaguchi also claims the credit for inventing karate free-sparring, so maybe this has something to do with it. The senior karate masters of the time emphasised kata training and were not very enthusiastic about free-style kumite. But anyway, whatever his early methods, it is a fact that the development of Goju in Japan was the work of this man, Gogen Yamaguchi.

 When Yamaguchi realised his position as the senior Japanese student of Goju-ryu, he began to take the responsibility seriously. When he could, he would go up to Mount Kuruma for austere training. He became acquainted with a group of Shintoists who were engaged in spiritual training, and was able to learn several things from them. He began to fast. He sat up in meditation through the night, and stood under a waterfall in sanchin stance to try and unify his mind and body. "I was surprised to learn," he writes, "that this (ascetic training) greatly influenced my karate. I found I was able to move without thinking in a natural and mysterious way while I practiced. Moreover, I attained a perception and could quickly see things before they occurred. I could anticipate what was going to happen."

 The 1930s were an ominous time for the whole world. In the East, Japan was on an expansionist course which was to lead to Pearl Harbour, and World War II. In 1931, the Manchurian Incident occurred. Following this, Japan seized Manchuria and in 1932 established the Republic of Manchu-kuo, actually a slave state of Japan. Concerning the Manchurian Incident, Yamaguchi writes only that Kanto (Kwantung) troops destroyed anti-Japanese troops led by General Cho Gaku-ryo.

 Actually, the Manchurian Incident occurred when Japanese troops of the Kwantung Army faked an attack upon themselves, and used this as a pretext to seize Manchuria. The plan was the brainchild Col. Kanji Ishihara (1889-1949) a "military genius" who spent two years planning the strategy to its last detail.

 Ishihara, a follower of the Nichiren sect of Buddhism, was an idealist who foresaw harmonious unification of Asia (Japan, Manchuria and China), under the spiritual leadership of Japan. His idea was to make Manchuria "a paradise." Gogen Yamaguchi was a friend and devoted follower of General Ishihara and shared his ideals. "We wanted to make Manchuria the Heavenly Land, where Japanese, Chinese, Mongolians and Koreans could live together in peace and prosperity. This idea was created by General Kanji Ishihara. He had my friend since I became a student and I supported his viewpoint together with about 200 disciples. (2)

In the event, Ishihara's views were overridden Manchuria was oppressed and ruthlessly exploited. For the native population, Manchu-kuo was anything but a heavenly land.

 In 1938, Gogen Yamaguchi was asked by General Ishihara to go to Manchu-kuo to take up Governmental duties. Being a patriot (with a capital P) he went, and served there until 1945. In his book Yamaguchi is not very specific about what his duties entailed, but he comes over as something like a mixture of administrator, trouble-shooter, spymaster and undercover agent. Throughout his time Manchuria he continued to train in karate, which just as well, since it pulled him out of tight scrapes several times.

 Once, he was patrolling, by himself, the around the bridge over the Nonjan river Since the bridge was of great strategic importance, it was a prime target for "Communist Spies." So Yamaguchi would disguise himself as a Manchurian and keep a look-out for suspicious characters. One evening he came across two men acting strangely, and when he began to ask them questions, they must have decided to take him out of there. One of the men went for a gun but Yamaguchi kicked it out of his hand and then dropped him with a punch. The other took out a knife, but with a shuto (sword-hand) strike, Yamaguchi disarmed him. Another time, three guerillas attempted to capture him, but he knocked them all down and took them prisoner.

 These were commonplace tight scrapes for Gogen Yamaguchi, but twice in Manchuria (he says) he was forced to exert himself to the utmost.

 The first occasion was when he had a fight with one Ryu Kaku Rei (Japanese pronunciation), a master of Chinese boxing. Yamaguchi had heard of Ryu Kaku Rei from one of his agents and, out of curiosity, went to look him up. But he probably wasn't expecting much. In 1940 Yamaguchi had led a group of martial artists, titled "The East Asia Martial Arts Mission" to give exhibitions in Japan. Included in the group were some experts in Chinese boxing, but they didn't impress Yamaguchi. When he took them to Ritsumeikan University to watch the karate training, he suggested that they join in, but they wanted nothing to do with it.

 Anyway, Yamaguchi introduced himself to Ryu, and the two men cordially agreed to a contest. Ryu Kaku Rei had developed his own style of ch'uan "Dragon Style." He was aged about 67 (compared to Yamaguchi who would have been in his early 30s) and looked thin and weedy. But Yamaguchi found out that Ryu could fight, because the best he (Yamaguchi) got was a draw. Yamaguchi's account of the fight is somewhat melodramatic--he calls it a draw because the fight ends in a double knockdown--but obviously the older man impressed him and pushed him to his limit.

 In May 1945, shortly before the end of the war, reports came in that a big attack was planned by Communists on the town where Yamaguchi was posted. The Japanese command dismissed the reports, but Yamaguchi waited nervously. Finally, "one thousand Communist bandits" launched their attack, and a pitched battle ensued. Yamaguchi gives an exciting account in his book:

"l looked at Mr. Suzuki. 'Well, it's still uncertain' I said. Just then we heard the sound of guns and battle cries near the castle gate 'Here they come! Take everyone upstairs. I'll defend down here.'

 "My men followed my order as I took two revolvers and hid myself downstairs. I heard cries everywhere as many bandits invaded the city and attacked in full force, killing many of the inhabitants. Citizens were running and bullets were flying everywhere as the city was thrown into utter confusion.

 "Bandits on horses stopped in front of our office. I took cover as I fired my revolvers through the window, until both guns were empty. Twenty bandits with guns and Chinese swords rushed our defence. Five or six bandits broke the door down with the butts of their guns and rushed into the room.

 "With my guns empty, I resorted to Goju school of karate for my defence. I adjusted myself with breathing and was ready to fight.

 "The room was dark and the bandits could not use their guns freely without possible injury to each other. I had trained myself to see in this amount of light and knew I would be able to withstand the onslaught of four or five people at a time. Under such a situation, I had to dispatch the enemy, one by one.

 "I avoided the first bandit who tried to strike me with his gun, and turning quickly to the right, struck him between the thighs with a roundhouse kick. He cried and fell to the ground. Another fired his gun at me from behind, but he missed. My elbow found the pit of his stomach with great force. A bloody Chinese sword slashed at me as I struck, with my right fist, the man who was wielding this sword. The fighting was confused but the narrow room was to my advantage. They rushed at me in the close quarters, which made it easy for me to fight them. When they drew near, I knocked them out using nukite (finger strikes), hijiate (elbows), shuto (sword hand) and seiken (fists), against the guns, I used tobi-geri (jumping kicks) and yoko-geri (side kick). I was able to fight more freely than in practice because I did not have any regard for my opponent's welfare.

   "Some of the bandits started up the stairs but were shot by my men who were protecting the women and children.

 "I attacked the bandits, aiming at their eyes or between their thighs, moving quickly as I fought. Fighting hard, I hoped we could last until help arrived.

 "Soon there were cries at the front door and the bandits started to scatter. It appeared that they had been ordered to retreat.

 "My men came down the stairs, asking if I was injured. Luckily, only my left arm had been injured by the slash of a dagger. I went upstairs to obtain a better view and observed the bandits fallen back with stolen weapons, gun powder and supplies. It was now 7 o'clock in the morning.

 ". . . When I discovered the bandits had gone, I suddenly lost all my strength and had to sit down. I had fought with them, hand to hand, for forty minutes."(3)

"In 1945, even though Russia's war with Japan didn't last three weeks, great numbers of Japanese war prisoners were raked in for urgent construction projects in Siberia and central Asia". (Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago ). At the end of the war, Russian troops moved into Manchuria. Thousands of Japanese were taken prisoner, Gogen Yamaguchi being one. After spending several months in a prisoner of war camp, he was moved to a labour camp in Mongolia where he spent two years, and there can be no doubt about it: it was grim.

 Solzhenitsyn and others have told us all about life in the Russian labour camps and the regime Yamaguchi mentions is familiar--the interminable roll calls, the terrible rations, and the reduction of rations if work norms were not filled, the "Prayer at Dawn", etc. etc. Thousands of Japanese died in these camps. (4)

In 1947, Gogen Yamaguchi was released from captivity and repatriated. On November 18th, 1947, he saw the coastline of his beloved Japan, and by December, he was back in Tokyo. He was profoundly shocked by the state of post-war Japan, and not so much by the physical destruction, as by what he saw as its drastic spiritual decline. It was too much for him to bear. Accordingly, he wrote his will, and at midnight on January 12th, 1948, walked to the Togo shrine at Harajuku. Because he had made up his mind. He was going to commit harakiri (ritual suicide by disembowelment).

Reaching the shrine, Yamaguchi sat beside a quiet pond with his dagger laid before him, and offered a prayer. He fell into a deep introspection, and then, like a bolt from the blue he experienced "a divine revelation" that changed his life.

 ". . . In the course of time I lost all feeling and had a sense of walking amidst the clouds, floating in the sky with no existence of my own. Such feelings are beyond my ability to describe. All past troubles were forgotten and I felt as if my soul was floating in a world of glory and peace.

 "Then I found myself stretched out face down on the floor. How long I had been there I didn't know. Coming to my senses I found everything appeared to be shining brightly as if the whole world was living in happiness. Never will I forget my mental state at that moment."

 When Yamaguchi had this mystical experience a realization crystallized in his mind: that to commit suicide would be a waste of his life, and besides, that he had responsibilities, to his family and to Japan. He realised that his mission in life was to teach and spread the martial arts, to teach the youth of Japan, (as one writer put it) "the flavour of combat - or simply of life." Accordingly, in 1948 he opened his first dojo, and in May 1950 established the All Japan Karate-do Goju-kai.

   Another effect of his divine revelation was to turn Yamaguchi's mind once more to religion and mysticism (5) (I would guess that it was from this time, too, that he began to grow his hair long). He visited the Reverend Tadaki Yoshimura, the Chief Reverend of the Shin-shu sect of Shinto, and before long became a master of Shinto himself. He also studied yoga under Tengai Noda, "Japan's Highest Authority" on the art.

 In due course, Yamaguchi formulated his own system of "Goju Shinto," a combination of Goju style karate, yoga and shinto, with some zen included too. We should note, however, that this is more a personal thing with Gogen Yamaguchi, and the yoga and shinto aspect does not affect the vast majority of Goju kai practitioners; they practice their karate just as other karatemen do.

 As we mentioned at the start of this chapter, Yamaguchi seems fully versed in shinto rituals and practices, and can communicate with the spirits (kami). He uses the crystal ball for this, and also for predicting earthquakes and similar things. He is familiar too with the various yogas (hatha yoga, raja yoga and kundalini yoga), and bases his understanding of the human body on yoga physiology, and its seven chakras (psychic centers). In his book he outlines the "eight pillars of yoga," and devotes eighteen pages to a demonstration (by a yoga expert named Per Wynter) of yoga asanas (postures). In all, the subject of Yoga occupies 35 pages of Karate: Goju-ryu by the Cat., so obviously Yamaguchi deems it of major importance.

 Why? Well, for a start yoga uses breathing techniques and so does Goju karate. Then, yoga can help in gaining mental-spiritual-physical balance. Yamaguchi explained this in an interview with Steve Bellamy, of Fighting Arts International.

 "If one's body, internally or externally. is out of balance, there is a limit to how far one can go, and this is where yoga can help. Yoga shows the way to adjust the body to a more natural and balanced state. If we use yoga to make a good foundation then there are no limits to physical and mental achievement."

   Later, he goes on:
 ". . . By following the yoga diet, the very cells of the body change and the seven vital points of the body called "chakras" are awakened. Once one becomes aware of these vital points other changes occur, finally leading to the state of "Bodhisattva" which could be called the ultimate consciousness. I have tried to control my diaphragm--which is incidentally the true centre of the life force--so as to return to a natural state of structural balance, which has given me the key to true breathing techniques opening my mind to cosmic inspiration."

 When he used to teach at his "Karate-do College," (1970s), Master Yamaguchi would take a weekly yoga class on a Monday afternoon. The class would consist of the yoga postures, and meditation, and it would end in a ritual which went like this. (Description by James Genovese an American karateman who trained at the college. See "Official Karate," August 1978).

 "The students would form a semi-circle round Yamaguchi and his wife, everyone facing the dojo altar. All lights except one were turned off. Everyone bowed three times to the altar, then Yamaguchi clapped his hands three times, to wake up the spirits. He uttered an incantation while sprinkling salt on the students (salt is purifying), and then waved a sort of wand (a wooden stick with white zigzag paper strips) over them.

 "Next, all the students bowed low while Mr. & Mrs. Yamaguchi chanted from the Hanya Sutra. A period of silence ensued, then suddenly Yamaguchi emitted a long howl that increased in pitch and loudness, then faded away slowly. This "eerie howl" was then repeated and, followed by a period of silence. That ended the class."

 The Nippon Goju kai (Japan Goju Association) teaches an orthodox Goju style, but there are certain differences vis-a-vis the Okinawan Goju. These are differences of emphasis rather than anything else the same kata are used but there are occasional minor variations in stances, for example. The Goju kai is a somewhat "lighter'" style, too, and does no make extensive use of the chashi, chishi and other supplementary conditioning equipment. Also, like other Japanese karate styles Goju kai makes more use of kicks, and has placed more emphasis on free style sparring as a training method. As we noted earlier, the free sparring is a bit closer than in some other Japanese styles. Instructors like to see students use Goju techniques, such as the distinctive open hand blocks, and keep the techniques flowing. Another feature is the high use of groin kicks, the kick is made with the instep and in sparring it is directed to the inside thigh.

 In the early 1970s Gogen Yamaguchi founded his "Japan Karate-do College," located in Tokyo's Suginami suburb. (His previous dojo at Nippori was destroyed by fire).

 It is a 3-story ferro-concrete construction, which Yamaguchi had built onto his house. The ground floor contains a karate dojo; the first floor, a yoga-shinto centre; and the second floor a dormitory containing about a dozen beds.

 This is Gogen Yamaguchi's Goju kai HQ, although classes in other styles are also taught, to give students of the college a well-rounded karate education. Gogen Yamaguchi himself no longer teaches, (he is 73 years old at time of writing); instruction is mainly in the hands of his son, Goshi.

 Yamaguchi has two other sons; Gosei, who has taught Goju kai in San Francisco since the sixties, and Gosen, who occasionally trains at the Karate-do College. According to an article by Brian Waites in "Fighting Arts" magazine, (6) recently the Goju kai has begun to stress tournament work much more. In previous years they were not overly concerned with this aspect and consequently did not have a great deal of success in open tournaments.

 Just a few words about Yamaguchi's daughter, Gokyoku, (formerly Wakako). She too teaches at the Karate-do College, and is Japan's premier woman in karate kata. She prefers kihon and kata because she realizes that women are at a definite disadvantage in kumite--men are just physically stronger. But Gokyoku Yamaguchi is an excellent technician and apart from that she is very good looking, intelligent, charming and very feminine. She is a fine calligrapher and recently married her calligraphy teacher.

​ NOTES: 

1. In an article on Gosei Yamaguchi which appeared in a now defunct American magazine, Self Defence World.

2. Japan's Imperial Conspiracy by David Bergamini (Heinmann, London, 1971) contains information on Kanji Ishihara, The Manchurian Incident and Japan's cruel administration of Manchu-kuo. For Ishihara see pp. 380-383 and page 1090. Bergamini notes that Ishihara wrote a book on the righteous course for the Japanese nation. Entitled The Ultimate World War (Sekai Saishu Senso) it was in manuscript form and almost complete. In the manuscript Ishihara saw the harmonious unification of Japan, Manchuria and China (brought about by force, no doubt). After this unification of Asia there would follow, perhaps within a period of 30 years, a "total war" between the yellows (Asians) and the whites (the West). Kanji Ishihara believed that Japan could give moral leadership to Asia and that this total war "would end inevitably in the annihilation of the West." (Japan's Imperial Conspiracy, p. 382).

3. Karate. Goju-ryu by the Cat, pp. 113-114.

4. "Prayer at Dawn": Prisoners in labour camps were left outside overnight in sub zero temperatures to die of exposure. IncidentalIy, Alexander Solzhenitsyn mentions an example of this in 1928, in the early years of Communist rule in Russia (The Gulag Archipelago, Vol. 2), so, evidently, it was a tried and trusted method of terrorising prisoners.

   5. In his book Yamaguchi mentions methods of exorcising spirits, etc.

6. Fighting Arts International, Vol. 3, No. 2.

​ Discussion: Legendary Battles with Wild Cats 

_*There is a well known story that, when in Manchuria, Gogen Yamaguchi fought and killed a tiger bare handed. The tale appears in Peter Urban's book Karate Dojo. Urban had studied karate in Japan in the fifties with Master Yamaguchi.

 Urban states that when Yamaguchi was in Manchuria he was captured by the Chinese, who tried to break him by solitary confinement, near starvation and torture. They failed. Hitting on another idea, the Chinese obtained a tiger and didn't feed it for three days. Then they put Yamaguchi in the animal's cage, expecting him to be torn limb from limb.

 But instead, Yamaguchi kicked the tiger in the nose and struck it in the head with his elbow before diving onto its back. He got the big cat into a stranglehold and, at the same time, "let out an intense, shattering scream, right into the ear of the animal." The tiger was strangled to death .

 Naturally, some people doubt that this ever happened, and trying to look further into it only deepens the confusion. For one thing. Urban's details are shaky. He says that Gogen Yamaguchi was arrested in Manchuria by "the hostile Chinese Government," but at that time there was no Chinese Government in Manchuria (Manchukuo) it was a Republic controlled by the Japanese. Yamaguchi in his autobiography, makes no mention of being captured by the Chinese, of being tortured (by Chinese or Russians), or of fighting a tiger.*_

_* American karateman, James Genovese, who trained at the Goju-kai headquarters in the seventies, says that Yamaguchi denies the story (see Official Karate, August 1978). Yet, to confuse the matter still more in his interview with Roland Gaillac in the French magazine Karate (April 1977) Yamaguchi is quoted as saying: "In Manchuria one day I went away into the mountains and had a fight with a tiger. with bare hands. It was a terrible experience. I repeated this experience later, before witnesses. ("J'ai renouvele cette experience par la suite. devant temoins.")
*_ 
   The idea of fighting and killing a tiger is not a unique one in the martial arts. George Mattson in The Way of Karate repeats a story he had been told in Okinawa about an incident in China of a man-eating tiger being killed by a venerable Chinese master of karate (or kung-fu). It is an unbelievable tale in which the tiger had jumped the old master from behind, whereupon the master seized its forelegs and threw it over his back onto the ground with a sort of "flying mare." Master Kanbun Uechi Sr. the founder of the Uechi-ryu karate style, purportedly saw both the Chinese master and the dead tiger which had left an inch deep impression in the ground where it had landed.

 They say that Chan Heung, the founder of the Choy Li Fut style of Kung-fu, killed a tiger, bare handed, when he was 60 years old. The skin of the tiger used to hang on the wall of his school.

 Just recently a troupe of martial artists from Mainland China visited Great Britain (March 1981). One of the team was Chao Chi-shu from Hunan Province, whose occupation was listed as "peasant". Chao demonstrated various stunts of ying chi kung or "hardening the body by harnessing the vital energy" but, more interesting, is the fact that he too was described as a man who had fought and killed a tiger with his bare hands. This had happened when Chao was only 17 years old. According to one report he knocked the big cat out with "a right hook," while another said he had wrestled with the tiger and strangled it. Speaking about this on the video "Wu Shu. The Chinese Masters" Chao said that the tiger had attacked him while he was working in the fields. A struggle ensued which lasted half an hour before Chao was able to kill the animal.

 Chao was in good shape for his age (48) but he did not look particularly strong or powerful. I could not imagine him as man who could outfight a tiger and I wondered just who was the source for that story--Chao himself? Well, could a karateman, or any unarmed man, fight and kill a tiger?

 Against a fully-grown tiger, it seems hard to believe. As most people know it is difficult enough to control a large dog, or a house cat weighing only a few pounds, and an Indian ("Bengal") tiger is 9-10 feet long from head to tail and weighs about 400 Ibs. The Manchurian, or Siberian, tiger can grow up to 12 feet and is proportionately heavier, around 500 Ibs. So even if Yamaguchi, who weighed only about 130 Ibs., fought a small tiger (say 230 Ibs?), he would still be considerably outweighed.

 In his huge book on Strongmen and athletes (The Super Athletes), David Willoughby, a world authority on feats of physical power, includes a chapter on "Man vs. Wild Animals." He is very sceptical about the possibility of an unarmed man overcoming a big cat. It is not only a question of physical power but of the animal's teeth and claws which are, effectively, like knives. Also, "if anything will fight to its last breath it is a cat."

 Willoughby quotes several examples, such as Frank Merrill, a strongman who was a screen 'Tarzan' in the silent era. Merrill worked with wild animals and thought that possibly a man could strangle a leopard (weighing, say 120 Ibs.), providing he got behind the animal and kept out of the way of its claws. However, he thought that a lion or tiger was beyond the ability of any man to overcome, except perhaps armed with a knife or other weapon. (In the Roman Games, there were trained men, called Bestarii, who fought wild animals in the arena. They did fight tigers, generally using spears).

 Dave Willoughby does mention a case of an American goldminer back in the 1890s killing a female cougar, unarmed. After a desperate struggle, and close to exhaustion, this man managed to bite into the cougar's throat and right through its jugular vein. "This is the only apparently authentic instance I have come across," writes Willoughby,"in which one of the big cats was killed solely with a man's own natural weapons."

   An interesting news item appeared a couple of years ago (1980):

Jakarta, Indonesia -- Two kung-fu experts fought a battle to the death with a male tiger in Northern Sumatra according to Agence France-presse. The victims, Sunarmin, 62, and Amarlak, 58, experts in Silak, an Indonesian style of kung-fu, were attacked by the tiger while harvesting in the jungle. According to the villagers, the two men were able to kill the cat before dying from severe loss of blood caused by deep lacerations received during the battle. Presumably the two men were armed with weapons of some sort.



Back in 1893, in San Francisco, the famous strongman, Eugen Sandow (5' 8", 185 Ibs.), had a public match with a circus lion. The lion's mouth was muzzled and mittens were placed over its paws. Quite what happened at the "bout" is obscure. Sandow's account, in his book Strength and How to Obtain It is ludicrous, and an American journalist, Alexander Woolcott, wrote an alternative and very unflattering account in 1929, nearly 40 years after the event.

 According to Woolcott, the lion was an old "timid and toothless vegetarian" who came in and lay down. The crowd charged the box office and demanded their money back. (Both versions of the Sandow vs. Lion fight are reprinted in Leo Gaudreau's excellent Anvils, Horseshoes and Cannons: The History of Strongmen.)

 To round off this whole question of karate masters vs. tigers, it might be worthwhile looking at another, more recent, "man vs. wild animal" promotion. The following is from The Daily Telegraph, January 5th, 1977:

FIGHT WITH TIGER DEGRADING-- The World Wildlife Fund urged President Duvalier of Haiti to ban a fight between a Japanese karate expert and a Bengal tiger, planned to take place in Port Au Prince in the next few weeks. It said in a cable to the President:



"We consider this is a degrading spectacle, not least because the tiger is representative of hundreds of animals threatened with extinction through human action."

Reading this, you can't help thinking that somebody had got things upside down. Because, if fights like this ever became commonplace, one species definitely would be threatened with extinction--karate masters!

 Mamoru Yamamoto, age 38, headmaster of the Yoshukai school, was the karate expert. He planned to fight the tiger, not bare-handed, but with a staff, and it was planned to transmit the match to American closed-circuit viewers. Unfortunately --or fortunately, depending on how you look it at--the fight was called off. As one more additional point, Don Atyeo (Blood and Guts: Violence in Sport p. 120) writes that the "Wild Bengal Tiger" was actually a broken-down circus reject.

 To get back to Gogen Yamaguchi: For all we know, he may have fought and killed a tiger back in the 1930s. If anybody was going to beat a tiger I suppose one way to do it would be to stun the animal before trying to strangle it from behind--although a tiger has a very thick neck. Since nobody has attempted to strangle a tiger under scientific conditions the possibility of succeeding in such a feat can't be established one way or another. But it seems a little hard to take!


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

*Per **Gogen Yamaguchi, does this make him have no abilties, less of or not an instructor, and less of a martial artist?*


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> *Per **Gogen Yamaguchi, does this make him have no abilties, less of or not an instructor, and less of a martial artist?*


 what's your opinion?


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

This is my opinion.
To sit here and go through the motions of debunking someone, especially when they are not here to defend or account for it is almost cowardly.

Strange how people talk about many people once they are deceased. Is there really honor in this? 

Yeah, sure people make exaggerated claims. Sure, some people have little understanding about martial arts-in the beginning. But as one matures and/or develops abilities and wisdom, they envolve into a different person. Thus is what martial arts do. As humans, we all make mistakes. As martial artists, we should not hang these mistakes over someone's head-esp the dead.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> This is my opinion.
> 1) To sit here and go through the motions of debunking someone, especially when they are not here to defend or account for it is almost cowardly.
> 
> 2) Strange how people talk about many people once they are deceased. Is there really honor in this?
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I fail to understand your comment go through the motions of debunking someone. 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Makes no difference to me whether they are dead or alive. Public figures will always come under public scrutiny. 

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Some people out right lie too.

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]Peoples false claims will always come back to haunt them. So you are saying we should discuss the wrong doings of the dead..maybe we shouldnt teach our children about the war atrocities or any other unflattering thing about people of the past. Maybe we should just bury any and all things that dont show people in a glowing halo of light..


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

_Makes no difference to me whether they are dead or alive._So sensitive are you?

Hmmn I cannot understand why you cannot understand this:

_Sure, some people have little understanding about martial arts-in the beginning. But as one matures and/or develops abilities and wisdom, they envolve into a different person. Thus is what martial arts do. As humans, we all make mistakes. As martial artists, we should not hang these mistakes over someone's head_


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 13, 2005)

We discuss the failings of the dead in order to learn lessons, if there are any. How many national heros have we had, only to find after they died that they weren't the princes we thought they were?
You can't just blindly accept how great someone is/was, even after they died, if evidence surfaces that they were not all they said they were. If people have been following a myth, they deserve to know they have been following a myth. If they choose to still follow a myth, that is up to them.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> We discuss the failings of the dead in order to learn lessons, if there are any. How many national heros have we had, only to find after they died that they weren't the princes we thought they were?
> You can't just blindly accept how great someone is/was, even after they died, if evidence surfaces that they were not all they said they were. If people have been following a myth, they deserve to know they have been following a myth. If they choose to still follow a myth, that is up to them.


 I agree. Sometimes we need to discuss things to better understand them..even if the people are dead or the subject may not be PC enough for some.
 For example, Louis Carrol (Alice in Wonderland) was supposedly a drug addict and child molester.kind of makes you look at his writing in a different way knowing that. Edgar A. Poe was also pretty messed upwhich explains a lot of his works too. Their works are considered classics by many despite their twisted messed up lives. 

     Maybe for some I shouldnt write about them because they are dead and cant defend themselves. 

     The more you know about someone the more you can understand them. 

 One of the benefits of these boards is to share and learn which has so often been stated..maybe some folks think we should only share info that makes them feel warm and fuzzy..I dont know. For me I would rather have the cold facts than live in fantasy land. 

 I posted an article written with some interviews in it by a fairly respected author/historian. I see nothing wrong with doing so. 



      The article was written objectively and fairly.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 13, 2005)

Or Thomas Jefferson's or Strom Thurmond's family history that nobody wanted to talk about when they were alive. Often people in power go to great lengths to suppress information that could negatively affect peoples' perception of them. FDR did this for years with his disabilities brought on by polio. It is only AFTER they die, and they can no longer keep this info from the public, that we begin to find out what really happened.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Hmmmnn, so likewise with the dead, things surface moreso than when they were alive. Things are seen or realized more once they are dead than when they were alive?

_The more you know about someone the more you can understand them._ 
Something I have been trying to state. But can you truely know them without going into the details of accounts as these unfolded with others around them. Can you fully understand them without being in full contact? It is easy to take certain writings and interpret these as one can mold-in either account. But, without actually being there, you can only take into account what others being there can state, which can fall in different directions.

_You can't just blindly accept how great someone is/was, even after they died, if evidence surfaces that they were not all they said they were._
Yes, but in the earliest point of time people did (per a few particulars in my past). 


_If people have been following a myth, they deserve to know they have been following a myth._
I can agree with this. But when certain things surface that wasnt known before, does this make the person less of what they were upon their final departure? Again, does this make them have no abilties, less of or not an instructor, and less of a martial artist? Does this make them less famous or have less of a overall contribution?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> _The more you know about someone the more you can understand them._
> Something I have been trying to state. But can you truely know them without going into the details of accounts as these unfolded with others around them. Can you fully understand them without being in full contact? It is easy to take certain writings and interpret these as one can mold-in either account. But, without actually being there, you can only take into account what others being there can state, which can fall in different directions.


 It would be impractical and impossible to get to know everyone everywhere on a personal level and then form an opinion......


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 13, 2005)

That is one of the purposes of newspapers-to uncover truth and get to the bottom of things. Very often, presidents (from Bush II on back) will spoonfeed us "info" that they created to hide what they are really doing, especially when they have they have an agenda they want to pursue. And it's not just presidents and politicians. Anybody occupying a prominent place in society (martial artists as well BTW) will spoonfeed us pablum to make sure our perception of them remains as it should be. The journalists and truthseekers who are doing their job (and are not paid shills) will check to see if what they are saying is accurate. They have a responsibility to.
Now if, say, a so-called Grandmaster is called on his lies and half truths by a truthseeker, and he gets defensive, then maybe he wasn't the Grandmaster everyone thought he was. How many so-called "Masters" have we dealt with on this forum that got VERY defensive when their credentials were questioned? If you are who you say you are, and what you teach is legit, you should have no problems answering questions. Particularly from those who are not members of your Association or clique. Very easy to answer questions when the questioner is associated with you. Difficult when the questioner is suspicious of you.


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## terryl965 (Apr 13, 2005)

Michagan TKD is right for all who ever got offensive about question about there Master or Grand Master have turned out to be a frued eventually. If you know the truth than who care's if a lies you do.


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## The Kai (Apr 13, 2005)

So.. TKD which has some rather mysterious "connections" to its past.  Of course, The Korean GM are so honorable that to question them us unthinkable.  Then you have mags like tkd times that is rather a extended form of advertising (actually all martial arts mags are kinda in this catagory) to help expose the truth!


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Well, yes people desire a trurth, and though the truth, or somewhat close to it, it will sting the blind follower or person whom was impressed by someone in the past. Only to find out later that there are, or maybe, other information in reciprocal as what they had originally be told or led to believe.

Lets talk about this per Bruce Lee....

Yeah, yeah, those of you may have a sigh, but bare with me please.

While Bruce was a alive (perhaps no different than other well known figures), not too many people would "step up" and find his faults.

After his death and much speculation, the autopsy revealed traces of cannibis.

Right away, some people could assume that "Bruce Lee smoked pot to get high".

And, perhaps those were close to him can also state this. But their reasons, after his death, could have a different agenda. So when these people did come out and state that Bruce did smoke pot.

However, are we to take the information from these people as factual, despite that Bruce did have cannibis in his stomach?

One doctor was quoting as saying it (cannibis) was not significant enough...

(This remains me of a president whom smoked it but didnt inhale)

I guess anyone can take information presented to them and use it to form their opinion.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> If you know the truth than who care's if a lies you do.


Sorry, I have a difficult time trying to interpret this. Could you please explain further...

Thanks


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> After his death and much speculation, the autopsy revealed traces of cannibis.


 Uh..... no it did not.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Uh..... no it did not.


See, this is what I am talking about.

Somewhere, someone has stated such info.

And I had seen, somewhere, someone had shown a copy of it.

Was it Life, People, etc.?

Do you have a copy of it or can show it did not?

BTW, it is not my opinion if he did or not, but a general analogy or concept to be explored.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Do you have a copy of it or can show it did not?


 I have seen a photo copy of it in a book.

 The report said "death by misadventure". Lee had an allegic reaction to a type of asprin tablet.


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Uh..... no it did not.


Actually, many sources state that he did, so dont jump on him too hard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_lee




> A short time later, Lee complained of a headache, and Ting pei gave him a tablet of analgesic. At around 7:30 pm, he lay down for a nap. After Lee didn't turn up for the dinner, Chow came to the apartment but could not wake up Lee. A doctor was summoned, who spent 10 minutes attempting to revive him before sending him by ambulance to Queen Elizabeth Hospital. However, Lee was dead by the time he reached the hospital. The ensuing autopsy found traces of cannabis in his stomach. There was no visible external injury; however, his brain had swollen considerably, from 1,400 to 1,575 grams. Lee was 32 years old.
> 
> A similar incident had occurred a few months before. On May 10, during the final dubbing of _Enter the Dragon_, Lee suffered a sudden attack of seizures and a cerebral edema which was not fatal. The neurosurgeon who saved his life in May, Dr. Peter Wu, said that he removed a considerable amount of hashish from Lee's stomach. Bruce, whose entrained paranoia grew with his international fame, had been chewing hashish to calm himself. Dr. Wu, who is renowned for his cerebral edema research in Asian males, said that various neurological problems associated with hashish had been recorded in Nepalese men. Bruce was very vulnerable to the effects of drugs due to his extrememly low body fat. Dr. Donald Langford, Lee's physician in Hong Kong, said that Bruce's body had less than one percent body fat, that "it was obscene how little body fat he had." Bruce Lee weighed only around 128 pounds at the time of his death.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Actually, many sources state that he did, so dont jump on him too hard.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_lee


 I am aware that many sources claim that but the actual report doesn't mention it.


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

I was always under the impression the accepted theory was that Lee died of edema, of which drugs were a contributing but not primary cause. From my experience, many times coroners list multiple factors that contribute to a persons death but make a "general" statement as to the primary cause a la "death by misadventure". The primary cause may very well have been anallergic reaction to the analgesic, but that reaction could have had roots in Lee's low body fat and drug use....:idunno:


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I was always under the impression the accepted theory was that Lee died of edema, of which drugs were a contributing but not primary cause. From my experience, many times coroners list multiple factors that contribute to a persons death but make a "general" statement as to the primary cause a la "death by misadventure". The primary cause may very well have been anallergic reaction to the analgesic, but that reaction could have had roots in Lee's low body fat and drug use....:idunno:


  This is what I found 
  "However the official cause of death, cerebral edema, was recorded as being the result of an allergic reaction to the analgesic he took"

 Im just wondering why were are talking about how B. Lee died when the topic is something different........:idunno:


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> This is what I found
> "However the official cause of death, cerebral edema, was recorded as being the result of an allergic reaction to the analgesic he took"
> 
> Im just wondering why were are talking about how B. Lee died when the topic is something different........:idunno:


Because this is in relation when someone dies, how information is presented, interpreted, or mis-interpreted (like Yamaguchi).

And, it also fits the topic of starting your own system, which Burce did.


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> After his death and much speculation, the autopsy revealed traces of cannibis.
> 
> .......
> 
> One doctor was quoting as saying it (cannibis) was not significant enough...


I dunno....:idunno: 

I guess Im just supporting this statement as they both appear to be true on the surface. While pot may have been in his stomach (ingested not smoked) it was determined it was the analgesic that killed him.

Thats all...


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I dunno....:idunno:


 Me too.

 Here is an interesting website

http://www.geocities.com/jimmy900_uk/bruceleerumours.htm


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

What is the root of this debate?

Per starting a system and or learning a system, per speaking of information after someone's death, per the below adding to the purpose(s) of it all.

Yeah, sure people make exaggerated claims. Sure, some people have little understanding about martial arts-in the beginning. But as one matures and/or develops abilities and wisdom, they envolve into a different person. Thus is what martial arts do. As humans, we all make mistakes. As martial artists, we should not hang these mistakes over someone's head-esp the dead. 

When certain things surface that wasnt known before, does this make the person less of what they were upon their final departure? Again, does this make them have no abilties, less of or not an instructor, and less of a martial artist? Does this make them less famous or have less of a overall contribution?

I too, have been lied to my a couple of past instructors. Does this make them/me have no abilties, less of or not an instructor, and less of a martial artists? Does this make them/me have less of a overall contribution?

Btw, I had continued my martial art study and as a martial artist, decades after these particular instructors departed.

Forgive the repetition...


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

What is the point of MA? Why are you teaching MA? What is the root of this debate?

Is it about preserving a lineage?
Is it about getting students and $$? (If so. What sells?...the lineage, your movement skills, it's "street effectiveness"?)
Is it about ego?
Is it about "truth" and proving you have it or know it?


What else is there?.....


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> What is the point of MA? Why are you teaching MA?
> 
> Is it about preserving a lineage?
> Is it about getting students and $$? (if so what sells...the lineage, your movement skills, it's "street effectiveness"?)
> ...


Is it about self improvement?
Is it about making changes in one's life?
Is it about building charecter?
Is it about living better morals (in analogy like sprituality)? (per some below)
Is it about forgiveness and compasion?

Is it about sharing these and others like these to other people?


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

Then....Does lineage matter? 
When?
Why?


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Does lineage matter?
> 
> When?
> Why?


Does it?

For what purpose(s)?

I forgot to add; Is it about making mistakes and sharing aspirations and to continue to learn?


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

I never really thought it did, unless I was under the impression that the instructor was outright lying about it to make $$ or had some wacky stories about the history of his style and where/how he learned it.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I never really thought it did, unless I was under the impression that the instructor was outright lying about it to make $$ or had some wacky stories about the history of his style and where/how he learned it.


Even you had found he did,
Does this make you less of what you are or can further become? Again, does this make you have no abilties, you less of or not an instructor, and you less of a martial artist? Does this make you have less of a overall contribution?

Is lineage somewhat like the anaolgy of whom is whom, whon taught whom, or whom is regal?


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

I suppose much of it rests on forethought and knowledge. If you know that your style isnt really some "secret style" taught to your master by some Chinese Monk while he was in Korea with the Army and It has a Japanese name (actually heard that one from a local instructor). But you are using it for marketing, its wrong. If somebody points out to you that your lineage is false but you never knew it...big deal. And if I was dealing with an honest/decent person I wouldnt make it into one.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Then....Does lineage matter?
> When?
> Why?


   The ONLY time lineage ever concerns me is when people lie about it.

   I dont care if someone makes up a style but when they claim things that arent true is when they lose respect.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> If you know that your style isnt really some "secret style" taught to your master by some Chinese Monk while he was in Korea with the Army and It has a Japanese name (actually heard that one from a local instructor). But you are using it for marketing, its wrong. If somebody points out to you that your lineage is false but you never knew it...big deal. And if I was dealing with an honest/decent person I wouldnt make it into one.


I see, as long it is not a premeditive manulipaltion tactic for monetary gains?



			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> And if I was dealing with an honest/decent person I wouldnt make it into one.


And how, praytell, can you judge someone as either on a forum without actually meeting them?



			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> I suppose much of it rests on forethought and knowledge.


Look at lineage or a practitioner this way:
Say the practitioner is a driver of an automobile.
The automobile is the lineage and/or martial art style.
The driver had much influences from what sources that say, an Oldsmobile is a fine car.
His first Oldsmobile, was ok, but he wanted a new one for whatever reason(s) (Too old, was stolen, too many repairs).
So still under past influences, he obtains another Oldsmobile. In his view, it is better than the first. But it gets to the point of maybe it is missing something.
So the driver, after sometime, gets yet another Oldsmobile, with many other features, a more expensive one.
Now, this is where it gets deep.
Other people/drivers who see the driver at a traffic light and examines the Oldsmobile in this brief moment. Thus, one other driver does not like Oldsmobiles.
Now the conclusion;
If the Oldsmobile is a vehicle of transportation to get the driver from point A to Point B, what difference is it of the maker of the vehicle? Will it change the driver in need of transportation? If he had been driving for 20, 30, or 40 years, does this make him less of a experienced driver because of his choice in car? If his first car was a "lemon", should he not get another car from the same maker? (Example-Lemon car-Oldsmobile Auroa.....better car from same maker-Oldsmobile Cutless)


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

As long as he isnt really driving an entirely different vehicle with Olds markings on it and handing out flyers or singing its praises so people will come to his dealership....


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

Here is a reason why things like honesty, integrity in the MA are important.
 On this website the guy claims all kinds of ranks titles and what have you.

   Notice the part that says:

_Appointed to the Dragon Society International (DSI) research team by Professor Rick Moneymaker._



http://budogeeks.tzo.com/bio.htm



   Yet on this title we get to see a more honest bio.

   Notice the part about Moneymaker on this website



http://sec-global.com/services/ctp/vsg/relics/MJD.html


 So would you want this guy teaching you or members of your family? Your kids?


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here is a reason why things like honesty, integrity in the MA are important.


I didnt claim they are not.

and Tgace said it nicely:

_*I suppose much of it rests on forethought and knowledge.* If you know that your style isnt really some "secret style" taught to your master by some Chinese Monk while he was in Korea with the Army and It has a Japanese name (actually heard that one from a local instructor). *But you are using it for marketing, its wrong. If somebody points out to you that your lineage is false but you never knew it...big deal.* And if I was dealing with an honest/decent person I wouldnt make it into one._


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> As long as he isnt really driving an entirely different vehicle with Olds markings on it and handing out flyers or singing its praises so people will come to his dealership....


Yes..... so we now come to yet another analogy....the "salesman" of the car.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> The ONLY time lineage ever concerns me is when people lie about it.
> 
> I dont care if someone makes up a style but when they claim things that arent true is when they lose respect.


I agree. But how can you conclusively state something is not true per someone with a hidden id, for whatever reason, did not exist?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I didnt claim they are not.


 it wasn't directed at you


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> it wasn't directed at you


OK, I was just making a general statement to make something clear.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I agree. But how can you conclusively state something is not true per someone with a hidden id, for whatever reason, did not exist?


 If some red flags pop up ask questions, do some research, check facts, more research.....eventually you will get an answer


  (how's that certificate coming anyway?   )


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> If some red flags pop up ask questions, do some research, check facts, more research.....eventually you will get an answer
> 
> 
> (how's that certificate coming anyway?)


Can that, or even a photo, prove or disprove anything?
Can supplying contact info, per others whom know about it also?

You have it in your mind to dismiss anything anyway.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1) Can that, or even a photo, prove or disprove anything?
> Can supplying contact info, per others whom know about it also?
> 
> 2) You have it in your mind to dismiss anything anyway.


  1) I don't know until I have seen it.
 2) Do I? I am not sure but I think in psychology they call your comment "projecting"....even if I do there is no harm in sending it. You have my email address.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) I don't know until I have seen it.
> 2) Do I? I am not sure but I think in psychology they call your comment "projecting"....


Yes, but when and if I allow you to see it, still given your commentary so far, I "project" that you will dismiss it and stand behind your train of thought.

No harm...it what way can you not dismiss it

And he we go again...hi-jacking a thread.

Back to:

Does this make him/I have no abilties, less of or not an instructor, and less of a martial artists? Does this make him/I have less of a overall contribution?

Could he have not been a oriental whom created his own martial art and instructed some younger minds?

Could he have or not have certification. If yes, how can this validate it? If no, how does this change if he taught well? What if he had simply printed them? or what if he had simply hand-wrote them?

I can prove by any of these, but the proof will not deviate your mind set.

And, no, I have not decided to create my own system for i know I want more to learn...

Peace


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> As long as he isnt really driving an entirely different vehicle with Olds markings on it and handing out flyers or singing its praises so people will come to his dealership....


   That just reminded me of those people in Palm Springs CA. that drive around in golf carts that have Mercedes and Rolls Royce ornaments on the hood.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> That just reminded me of those people in Palm Springs CA. that drive around in golf carts that have Mercedes and Rolls Royce ornaments on the hood.


...were these actually sold by a Mercedes/Rolls dealer? (the carts).


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> 1)I suppose much of it rests on forethought and knowledge.
> 
> 2)If you know that your style isnt really some "secret style" taught to your master by some Chinese Monk while he was in Korea with the Army and It has a Japanese name (actually heard that one from a local instructor). But you are using it for marketing, its wrong.
> 
> 3)If somebody points out to you that your lineage is false but you never knew it...big deal. And if I was dealing with an honest/decent person I wouldnt make it into one.


 1)True. If someone makes up some line of BS for personal gain then I would object. 

      2)Again, I agree, and have seen it several times. 

 3)On the other hand if someone points this out and you continue to market it with all the same BS as before its a problem. 



 When I first started training I studied a Chinese style under a guy that claimed when we reached a certain rank we had to be adopted by the founders family that was based in Canton, China. This was due to the fact that he could only teach family members.even though he was white. He claims he would send the paper work off and we would be registered as a family member. Even though I was young this sounded a bit stupid to me. However I liked the style and continued training, eventually I got tired of the various BULL this guy was shoveling and quit.

 Years later after studying Chinese in China I had a look at my old certificates to see what they said.they were a bunch of crap. 

 As I said before I liked the style and while in China actually found someone who had trained in the same style. What I had learned was evidently incorrect and needed lots of corrections. I asked them about all the family stuff and they said what I was told was nonsense.
 So what I learned in the US from the BS artist was for the most part not very good and I got the added bonus of listening to all his made up BS. 
 All in all I guess I got the "mushroom treatment" from him,  (being kept in the dark and fed a bunch s.....), and paying for it.
 The guy still teaches to this day.......he is a "Grand master" now too.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)True. If someone makes up some line of BS for personal gain then I would object.
> 
> 2)Again, I agree, and have seen it several times.
> 
> 3)On the other hand if someone points this out and you continue to market it with all the same BS as before its a problem.


Yes, I do not attempt to market the two instructors, in particular, I had. or myself from their instruction as theirs being my current art. In fact, when I do mention them, it is out of casual conversation or to state how their methods of teaching were. I do not claim my ranking from them. I too am skeptic of the same things. I am even skeptic of Chi, although I still remain "open-minded" about it.




			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> When I first started training I studied a Chinese style under a guy that claimed when we reached a certain rank we had to be adopted by the founders family that was based in Canton, China. This was due to the fact that he could only teach family members.even though he was white. He claims he would send the paper work off and we would be registered as a family member. Even though I was young this sounded a bit stupid to me. However I liked the style and continued training, eventually I got tired of the various BULL this guy was shoveling and quit.
> 
> Years later after studying Chinese in China I had a look at my old certificates to see what they said.they were a bunch of crap.
> 
> ...


But what if the guy had actually had a Chinese write it? How can the paper, if written so well, be validated or not validated?

I see where you have developed this crusade to debunk. So you were in the same boat as I was. It would be a different train of thought altogether if you or I was still training from these past "instructors"

However, can you credit this guy (your "instructor") you speak of with any knowledge or something per routine or method or anything that you may have learned-besides the obvious? Is he still there? Do you still have these "certificates"?

The bottom line with my situation, of both of the instructors I speak specifically of, is that they changed their names. And why not? They move on and have to change their names again. Thus, it is a endless cycle.

We learn and move on, bro. And we continue to strive to do better. It hasnt made us "less" of martial artists.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1) But what if the guy had actually had a Chinese write it?
> 
> 2) How can the paper, if written so well, be validated or not validated?
> 
> ...


 
     1)They werent hand written.

     2)By the content of what they said.

 3)Actually, No you dont. I have never been on a crusade. I have never gone out of my way to find BS artists. They usually post something that is BS I and call them out on it. Then they back peddle, make all kinds of excuses, tell even more lies, whine, and pout, throw temper tantrums and so on.. 

 4)Not really. My instructor used a real name, not 2 last names, and I realized he was full of it but kept training until I got tired of hearing it. 

 5)I do not credit him with teaching me anything really. I threw the certificates away about 25 years ago when I found out they were nonsense. 

     6)They sound like a couple of real dirt bags. 

     7) Im not your bro.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)They werent hand written.
> 
> 2)By the content of what they said.
> 
> ...


1.) The so-called Okinawan Japanese one is. The Korean one is mass-produced and not associated in a real sense.

2.) Same as what I had.

3.) Back peddle. I have I claimed skills or proficiency from those bogus teachers I had? We were taken by these people? We werent in the same boat?

4.) Does he still teach? Can you locate him still?

5.) No evidence of these existing anymore-huh.

6.) They were, which is why I was at first hesitant to name them, knowing I may get some flame from them. Perhaps I should have made a notation that I had doubts about them/him in the posting of a name.

7.) No offense, I cant get that silly word out of my head. A friend was over visting just recently and he kept saying it. It will take me a liitle while to clear it out of my head.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1.) The so-called Okinawan Japanese one is. The Korean one is mass-produced and not associated in a real sense.
> 
> 3.) Back peddle. I have I claimed skills or proficiency from those bogus teachers I had? We were taken by these people? We werent in the same boat?
> 
> ...


 1) I wasn't refering to yours.
 3)  was I talking about you? 
 4) Already answered half that question.
 5) No need to keep them. I don't do or teach that style and never will.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 14, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) I wasn't refering to yours.
> 3) was I talking about you?
> 4) Already answered half that question.
> 5) No need to keep them. I don't do or teach that style and never will.


1.) I was thinking so, but gave info. fyi

3.) ditto

4.) Just curious. Wanted to "look" it up

5.) My sentiments exactly


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## The Kai (Apr 14, 2005)

How about this?

I found mt own style "Stumble Foot Do" - Okay
I have certificates to prove I have a Black Belt in Karate
I also have a bunch of neat certs from assorted seminars
However, i freely admit most of the genius of the system cmame from my small mind
No lineage, No History, No secret teaching
Just my own thing
How would that fly??


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2005)

Great Kai sound like my Coach Potato style in a earlier post. We are now GrandMaster of bogus styles let get together and have a coming out party.


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## beauty_in_the_sai (Apr 14, 2005)

Every martial art started out through a person or group of people making them up. So if the Asians of old can do it, why can't we? I've made up my own martial art that takes everything I love in the martial arts I've learned thusfar and mixes them together with dance. I love TKD's kicks and hand strikes, ninjutsu's weapons, and JKD's stepping. Mix 'em all together and you have my personal, orginal art that has no ranking system as I'm the only one who knows it and I doubt I'll ever want to teach it. If I do, I'm still going to leave rank out of it. Martial arts should be about you, not someone else's opinion of how you should fight. If you want to make up your own art, I say learn the basics from a style first at least, then go right ahead with making up your own. Piece of advice though: Don't tell other people you did. They'll be like, what's wrong with you?  I found that out firsthand. LOL


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## The Kai (Apr 14, 2005)

beauty_in_the_sai said:
			
		

> Every martial art started out through a person or group of people making them up. So if the Asians of old can do it, why can't we? I've made up my own martial art that takes everything I love in the martial arts I've learned thusfar and mixes them together with dance. I love TKD's kicks and hand strikes, ninjutsu's weapons, and JKD's stepping. Mix 'em all together and you have my personal, orginal art that has no ranking system as I'm the only one who knows it and I doubt I'll ever want to teach it. If I do, I'm still going to leave rank out of it. Martial arts should be about you, not someone else's opinion of how you should fight. If you want to make up your own art, I say learn the basics from a style first at least, then go right ahead with making up your own. Piece of advice though: Don't tell other people you did. They'll be like, what's wrong with you? I found that out firsthand. LOL


How wonderfully Naive, please don't let the world ever stop you polyannic trip.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 14, 2005)

_Moderator Note._ 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314



Please, return to the original topic.



Sheldon Bedell

MT Mod


let stick to these 4 questions


> 1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??
> 
> 2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?
> 
> ...


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## RRouuselot (Apr 14, 2005)

beauty_in_the_sai said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Every martial art started out through a person or group of people making them up.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]So if the Asians of old can do it, why can't we?
> 
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Developed might be a better word than made up.

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Those Asians didnt develop their arts over a weekend, nor did they do it for profit or fame.they did it to save their butts. An entirely different mind set than most MA people have today. 

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]How effective do you think it is?

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]How long have you trained in those arts?

   5)[font=&quot]      [/font]MA should be about protection.


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## ninhito (Apr 15, 2005)

okay, lets say the person say and heard about the tsunami in south east asia around those parts okay.  His light went on and thought hey if i fought like this i could over welm my enemies.  Okay so he goes to the club and gets into a fight with this HUMONGOUS guy, i mean like huge guy, but because he thought i must overwhelm him before he gets me, this guy just punches and kicks and chokes and overwhelms the guy.  The fight seises but the guy it still around and the guy who started his own ryuha was really tired from all that hasted work.  He says i have to land that guy on his *** before he blows me away so he goes home.  He figures and experiments with his freinds and fights with some of old freinds from the surounding dojos getting the crap beat out of them.  he sees the mechanics and notices the difference whether the art be central body power or precision based or what.  The guy the whole time thinks I have to be able to land that guy on his *** so he tries some stances that he saw in some of his, lets say iaido, and he says wow this could be really useful if the guy were charging me.  then he makes a stance up thinking but if the guy were to just sock me and get in defenseive position, knowing he just wants to fight, then i get into this atack position.  Then the guy gets the crap beat out of him by an aikido guy and the aikido guy says what kinda stances were those, I've never seen them before. The guy says they're mine and the aikido guy says OOO yeah your trying to make your own ryu and then the aikido guy says wow your ryuha has sure lost its philosophy.  The guy gets reminded and gets back to his central work on making a RYUHA, because there is only so many ways the body can move so new techniques are almost out of the picture now but philosphies can still be achieved, so he figures to overwhelm the guy he fought, waaaaaaaaaay back when in the bar whose name he cant even remember, and says how to overwhelm him then he thinks ooo yeah i could jump in the air and punch and kick in the face.  So the guy goes to test out his ryu on one of his many martial art freinds and beats them. They all say they never exected to be punched in the face by a punch, followed by a knee.  So the guy calls his ryuha tobikoendo tsunami ryu(im going for jumping tsunami ryu)...an there ya go...


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## VSanhodo (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here is a reason why things like honesty, integrity in the MA are important.
> On this website the guy claims all kinds of ranks titles and what have you.
> 
> Notice the part that says:
> ...


 
Robert:
If you ever get the chance to speak to Mr Shull ask him about the time he and I went to a Moneymaker Seminar. I havent laughed so hard in my life. 
Thanks again for your posts

San


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Robert:
> If you ever get the chance to speak to Mr Shull ask him about the time he and I went to a Moneymaker Seminar. I havent laughed so hard in my life.
> Thanks again for your posts
> 
> San


 
 OK, now I'm dying to know!
 Can you shoot me an email and tell me what happend?


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## BruceCalkins (Apr 16, 2005)

That is always a good question. As for Starting your own system. I think several things need to apply.

1 You should have time in the arts. Not just 3-5 years but time... I have been in the arts 37 years...

2 You should hold ranks in all the systems your new art is going to be made out of. So you understand the arts. Our system is made of, Ninjitsu, Shaolin Kung-Fu, Aikido, Kenpo, ect.. and I hold at least a 1st degree Black in all of these and permission to teach them. I also put Jui-Jitsu in our system (I have little experence in it) But my Co-Instructor is a Black Belt of 14 years in the style so it is his knowledge that is added.

3 As for Exam... There are several Sokeship boards that will test your system and you. Their Board of Yodansha is of mixed martial arts and will look at the valid aspects of the art and how you present it. I had to offer a resume, Bio, and Manual to the board for inspection then do a thesis of why my art was different and then demonstrate my ability to teach it.

We all need to just remember no mater what style we teach, No mater what it is called. We are All Martial Artist. Sprung from the same well, Buddha Darma in 525bc. A Front Kick is a Front Kick and a Side Kick is a Side Kick no matter what we call it. 

Have fun and explore all the arts.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> A Front Kick is a Front Kick and a Side Kick is a Side Kick no matter what we call it.


 
 So is a "Soke" front kick different than say a 8th dan front kick?


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 16, 2005)

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> That is always a good question. As for Starting your own system. I think several things need to apply.
> 
> 1 You should have time in the arts. Not just 3-5 years but time... I have been in the arts 37 years...
> 
> ...


well since this is a hot topic as of late, let me be the first to ask this question. you state that you have at least a 1st degree black belt in these systems, which system did you have at least a 10th degree black?

there are a lot of people in the martial arts world that think having 10(ten) 1st degree rankings is the same as having 1(one) 10th dan ranking.
in reality, this is just having shodan knowledge in 10(ten) different arts.
that is of course if the shodan rankings were all received legitimately


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## The Kai (Apr 16, 2005)

Is Shodan ranking indictive of knowing the system???


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## Aegis (Apr 16, 2005)

Another 10th Dan... Just what the world needed

I always find it interesting that there have only been about 11 10th dan holders in judo in the century-and-a-bit of its existance, and yet there seem to be hundreds of 10th dans in America...


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 16, 2005)

I dont think a 10th Dan or claiming one is a great value. It fact it seems boisterous to me. I do believe at least 10 years to be a good criteria. And not 10 years of book/video or random training. For example 1 year per different art as having 10 art, times 1 year, equals to a total of 10.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> For example 1 year per different art as having 10 art, times 1 year, equals to a total of 10.



I would have agreed to this 10 years ago.  Then a good friend of mine, who happened to be an excellent Tae Kwon Doist showed me some stuff.  I found out that one year in 10 arts does not equal 10 years.  It equals one year in ten arts.  

In my current art, _my foundation_, one year is enough to learn the basics.  Ten years of basics is good, but one is not going to learn any depth from the basics.


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 16, 2005)

indeed, simply learning the foundation in a multitude of arts does not give you any insight into the principles.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 16, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> indeed, simply learning the foundation in a multitude of arts does not give you any insight into the principles.


Therefore, is it giving one enough experience to create/start their own?


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 16, 2005)

Just to go back to the original question for a moment:

No, it's not even remotely the question.

In fact, it's a beautiful example of ways to protect yourself against all the real questions.

Incidentally, in "Hamlet?" All the good interpretations of that soliloquy point out that Hamlette cannot possibly answer what she's asking.


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 16, 2005)

well lets look at it this way..........we can take it from a tradesman or a university students point of view. 
some guy decides he wants to be a tradesman so he goes to a plumber and works with him for a year, picks up rudimentary knowledge of plumbing and decides its not for him, tries millwrighting, nope....pipefitting, too much like plumbing, electrical....nah. he spends ten years going around the trades picking up things here and there ......oh wait, a jack of all trades, master of none.
i needn't go further


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I dont think a 10th Dan or claiming one is a great value.


 Not unless you are trying to impress som young teenage boys.......


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 17, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Not unless you are trying to impress som young teenage boys.......


.........who are gullable to "fall in a trap"...... :asian:


----------



## MichiganTKD (Apr 17, 2005)

Two things I noticed about the "Fusho Satori-Ryu" web site:

1. The "10th Dan" founder looks no more than 45 years old.

2. Very pronounced gut. Does not exactly look in shape.

Sigh. Where will it end?


----------



## 47MartialMan (Apr 17, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Two things I noticed about the "Fusho Satori-Ryu" web site:
> 
> 1. The "10th Dan" founder looks no more than 45 years old.
> 
> ...


 

1.)Yeah, at that level the age should be around what?


2.) Like a beer gut?


----------



## Aegis (Apr 17, 2005)

Examining the guy's bio on his webpage, apparently a 10th dan is approximately equal to:

2 years of Shaolin Kung Fu (red sash)
1 year "Way of Life" Dojo Aikido (shodan!!!)
1 year Black Star Ninjutsu
3 years self training, after which he formed his own style, "Golden Dragon Karate"
1994-some time probably before end 1995: Ryu-Kai (soemone else's style, Nidan)
1995- some training in kempo, no grade mentioned.

Even being generous with his training dates, this 10th dan is approximately equal to 6 years training under several instructors, with maximum achieved grade of Nidan (and that in someone else's personal style) and 3 years of self training.


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 17, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Two things I noticed about the "Fusho Satori-Ryu" web site:
> 
> 1. The "10th Dan" founder looks no more than 45 years old.
> 
> ...


 

   1) Actually he was born in 1962.so about 43 years old.


----------



## Aegis (Apr 17, 2005)

I like this picture....

http://www.goldendragondojo.com/files/DaiSword.jpg


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 17, 2005)

Now, now, now. This pic should have been summited on another forum that enjoys something like this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Also, I though this forum was freindly and its policy wasnt out to display anything negative about anyone/style.


----------



## The Kai (Apr 17, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> well lets look at it this way..........we can take it from a tradesman or a university students point of view.
> some guy decides he wants to be a tradesman so he goes to a plumber and works with him for a year, picks up rudimentary knowledge of plumbing and decides its not for him, tries millwrighting, nope....pipefitting, too much like plumbing, electrical....nah. he spends ten years going around the trades picking up things here and there ......oh wait, a jack of all trades, master of none.
> i needn't go further


Actually tye problem would be if someone knocked around the trades for a few years.  Then surfaced as say a master Mason, that would be fleecing the public.  When honest masons do nothing it woould discrecit the industry.

P.S. Having a Fanatsy sword on a Martial Arts web site (all real, no fancy stuff for the ring) should be punished.


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 17, 2005)

i thought that sword was pretty cool.............alright, im kidding


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 17, 2005)

fantasy sword for a fantasy mind


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## arnisador (Apr 17, 2005)

I don't know the answer to what age a 10th dan should be...or how big his/her gut should be. The sword picture isn't too impressive, but it's also from a high angle so perhaps it's hard to say.

Ah well, life goes on.


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## Aegis (Apr 17, 2005)

Arnisador: my evaluation of the sword picture was that it was a bad stance, a bad grip and likely a bad sword too, judging from the decoration...

I imagine it was just a pose to look impressive, but to claim it as a picture of him in action might be a bit misleading.


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 17, 2005)

Aegis said:
			
		

> 1) my evaluation of the sword picture was that it was a bad stance, a bad grip and likely a bad sword too, judging from the decoration...
> 
> 2) I imagine it was just a pose to look impressive, but to claim it as a picture of him in action might be a bit misleading.


    1)The sword was a piece of crap. 

    2) I call that pose the Sho Kasugi pose, which pays homage to all the crap Ninja movies from the 1980s.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 17, 2005)

Aegis said:
			
		

> I like this picture....
> 
> http://www.goldendragondojo.com/files/DaiSword.jpg


BWAAAHHAAAAHAAA!


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 17, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> BWAAAHHAAAAHAAA!


 Exactly........


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## Tgace (Apr 17, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Exactly........


Aren't those Klingon battle weapon outlines on the wall behind him??


----------



## 47MartialMan (Apr 17, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Aren't those Klingon battle weapon outlines on the wall behind him??


He taught Klingons also.....


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 17, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Aren't those Klingon battle weapon outlines on the wall behind him??


 Yup, they sure look like it.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 17, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Yup, they sure look like it.


BWAAAAHAAHAAAHAAAHAA!!!!


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## RRouuselot (Apr 17, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Aren't those Klingon battle weapon outlines on the wall behind him??


 Did you notice the "Ninja" shuriken right next to the beer opener above the drawing? All the necessities for training I guess


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## Miles (Apr 17, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Did you notice the "Ninja" shuriken right next to the beer opener above the drawing? All the necessities for training I guess


 Yes I did.    Below is a quote from the website.  Apparently the Sage has no ego, does not deliberate, nor does the Sage use spellcheck.  

*[font=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Master Bankei says: "The Sage has no ego and so does not deliberate. What the Sage does is to respond with Absolute Sponianeity to the conditions in the world."

[/font]*Miles  (he who acts without spontaneity.....)


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 17, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Yes I did.    Below is a quote from the website.  Apparently the Sage has no ego, does not deliberate, nor does the Sage use spellcheck.
> 
> *[font=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Master Bankei says: "The Sage has no ego and so does not deliberate. What the Sage does is to respond with Absolute Sponianeity to the conditions in the world."
> 
> [/font]*Miles  (he who acts without spontaneity.....)


 
 Who is master Bankei?


----------



## arnisador (Apr 17, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Who is master Bankei?


 A Klingon. Weren't you paying attention?


----------



## MichiganTKD (Apr 17, 2005)

I can hear real Samurai in their graves laughing their butts off. Does he use his stomach as a table to hold his other sword and knives?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 17, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> A Klingon. Weren't you paying attention?


 
 I guess not. :idunno:


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## The Kai (Apr 18, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Aren't those Klingon battle weapon outlines on the wall behind him??


OH man.  Does it get any better?


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## Talesin (Apr 18, 2005)

Did you know that the weapon was designed by a martial artist. The producers just wanted a normal type sword, but he came up with what you see and how to use it..


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## RRouuselot (Apr 18, 2005)

Talesin said:
			
		

> Did you know that the weapon was designed by a martial artist. The producers just wanted a normal type sword, but he came up with what you see and how to use it..


 Looks like a variation of a Chinese weapon I have seen.


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> A Klingon. Weren't you paying attention?


LOL! :lol: Maybe Kaith can arrange for some Star Trek emoticons... So I've been trying to pay attention here, but I'm wondering have the Klingon's started their own system?:mst: :uhohh:


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## RRouuselot (Apr 18, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> .......So I've been trying to pay attention here, but I'm wondering have the Klingon's started their own system?:mst: :uhohh:


 
 dunno......I study the Vulcan Death Touch system.......


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 18, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> dunno......I study the Vulcan Death Touch system.......


:lol: Ah then you must know Mr. Spock   ...I've always wanted to learn this, does it involve ki or pressure points or what, and will you be starting a system on this?


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## arnisador (Apr 18, 2005)

Talesin said:
			
		

> Did you know that the weapon was designed by a martial artist. The producers just wanted a normal type sword, but he came up with what you see and how to use it..



I heard about this. Well, I'm glad they went for authenticity. Maybe the Klingon weapon is a variant of an actual weapon that's in the picture? I don't know.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 18, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> :lol: Ah then you must know Mr. Spock  ...I've always wanted to learn this, does it involve ki or pressure points or what, and will you be starting a system on this?


 That's the Vulcan Mind Link, it's different than the Death Touch.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 18, 2005)

Maybe Im just slow but can someone tell me why this thread hasnt been closed while this one (below) was closed for Fraud Busting?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=381121#post381121

   Looks to me like similar information has been posted and similar comments have been made just about different individuals.


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 18, 2005)

This thread has grown quickly, please list the post numbers that you think violate the fraud busting policy and I'll gladly put it in for review. :asian:


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## RRouuselot (Apr 18, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> This thread has grown quickly, please list the post numbers that you think violate the fraud busting policy and I'll gladly put it in for review. :asian:


    If you look threw this thread you'll find them.....or any of the other "Soke" related threads where the Soke is getting debunked.  
  My point is why is it OK to take pot shots at a couple of folks on this thread and not the other????? Seems hypocritical.


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 18, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> If you look threw this thread you'll find them.....or any of the other "Soke" related threads where the Soke is getting debunked.
> My point is why is it OK to take pot shots at a couple of folks on this thread and not the other????? Seems hypocritical.


The difference may be that the thread itself originally was not intended to fraud bust a particular individual. Your concerns have been noted though as your post has already been put in for all of the Mods to review the thread. :asian:


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## RRouuselot (Apr 18, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> The difference may be that the thread itself originally was not intended to fraud bust a particular individual. Your concerns have been noted though as your post has already been put in for all of the Mods to review the thread. :asian:


 
   MT Fraud Busting policy doesnt state that it is OK for people to fraud bust mid thread. 

*Official Policy on Fraud Busting and Credential Verification.*

*Fraud Busting*
  Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.

  MartialTalk and its staff encourages the polite and professional search for knowledge. Questions and concerns may be brought up, with the understanding that the other party is under no requirement to answer. 

  Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest. (Example: Kenpo Lineage questions in the Kenpo forum). Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the Bad Budo forum.

  Excessive Inquisitor style questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of excessive.

  In addition, Hot Pursuit actions will not be tolerated. The Hot Pursuit is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and/or forums.

  Members who become obsessed, inquisitors or interrogators will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum


*Credential Verification*
  The staff of this forum is certainly concerned with the rising problem of falsified and otherwise questionable credentials. Due to the costs in time and money, as well as possible language barriers, we are unable to perform verifications. Because of the number of different organizations, splits and other divergences, absolute certainty of authenticity can only be achieved in a few select areas. 

  While each member of our unpaid, volunteer staff has their own area of knowledge, we do not feel we are qualified to evaluate the skills of those who have not trained in our own arts. The Karateka is simply not qualified to decide if the Kenpoists karate is any good. Each art has its own requirements and guidelines. It is humanly impossible to understand them all.

  The simple truth is that there are thousands of opinions on what is right, and wrong in the arts. We encourage our members to share their ideas in a polite manner.

  MartialTalk staff will not be involved in credential verification or skills evaluations.


  MartialTalk is not a forum dedicated to credential checks or outing frauds. Our goal is to provide a friendly, and an open area to exchange ideas, share thoughts, relax and network. Activities that disrupt our primary focus are not encouraged.


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## mj-hi-yah (Apr 18, 2005)

I didn't say it was ok to do, it is just more obvious in the other thread and springs to attention because it is the topic of the thread.  Please know that your concerns in this thread are being addressed.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 18, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I didn't say it was ok to do, it is just more obvious in the other thread and springs to attention because it is the topic of the thread. Please know that your concerns in this thread are being addressed.


 What was kind of odd is the original guy I mentioned in the thread had no connection to MT and nobody had a problem with it and several replies were made about him and the thread stayed open.

    THEN I mentioned another guy who has an indirect tie to MT and the thread gets closed up tighter than a frog's butt. 

    That just seems a little too convenient..


----------



## arnisador (Apr 18, 2005)

Conspiracy?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Conspiracy?


   Dunno....but the timing is pretty poor.....and oddly enough the thread can't be accessed or seen any longer.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 19, 2005)

Don't worry. I'm studying Linux Server Protocol as fast as I can:uhyeah:


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## Seig (Apr 19, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Dunno....but the timing is pretty poor.....and oddly enough the thread can't be accessed or seen any longer.


The thread is being stored until I can look at it. If I see that it is pretty much the same as this, I will restore it. However, there seems to be a few insults among the participants being hurled. They need to stop or the insulters will be suspended.


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## Aegis (Apr 19, 2005)

Seig: if it's insults, would it be possible to delete the appropriate bits and restore the thread anyway? If it's the thread I'm thinking of, there were some quite interesting bits in there, and it would be a shame to lose it to a few insults...

Cheers regardless


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## Seig (Apr 20, 2005)

Unless profanity or pornograpy are involved, we generally frown upon editing posts. The thread was restored.


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## evenflow1121 (Apr 20, 2005)

An excellent post btw

Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems. I have 4 questions.

1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??

I think there are already way too many self proclaimed GrandMasters.  For example, when I teach, I can give the student the option of using a grab, and not a hammer fist, or a ridge hand on particular techniques in order to suit their needs and expand their minds, or vice versa, does not necessarily mean I am going to take this, give my self 8 dans and start the oh I dunno "the red monkey kenpo system."

2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?

If they are going to go that route certainly higher than shodan or nidan, sadly thats the rank most of these so called neo-grandmasters had before they were enlightened to start their own systems, if they ever even reached black belt.  

3) What other requirements should a person have?

Well,their system should work, not just through the eyes of a white belt walking in to their studios, but tested against other black belts of other systems, and most certainly the system it derived from.

4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?

This would be awesome in an ideal world, but prob would not happen in the real world, for various reasons.  Its the biggest problem with all of this as well because, well if you start your own system, you've pretty much given yourself full acreditation.  I mean lol, who is going to take that one away from you? 

I look forward to your posts, all opinions and views are welcome.

Thanks

San[/QUOTE]


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## Seig (Apr 21, 2005)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> An excellent post btw
> 
> Lets say for sake of argument you agree with ppl starting their own systems. I have 4 questions.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]Isn't there already a thread asking these exact same questions?


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 21, 2005)

I think he was _answering_ the questions originally posted


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## ninhito (Apr 21, 2005)

how come he would have to have anyrank in any system?


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## Aegis (Apr 21, 2005)

Because otherwise he's probably just making it up with no credentials or experience whatsoever.


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## evenflow1121 (Apr 21, 2005)

Isn't there already a thread asking these exact same questions?[/QUOTE] 
Read the first page of the thread


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 21, 2005)

ninhito said:
			
		

> how come he would have to have anyrank in any system?


A rank in a system deminstrates determination and instruction from a qualified instructor.

Would a employer want to hire someone with a diploma or without one?


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 21, 2005)

> A rank in a system deminstrates determination and instruction from a qualified instructor.


not absolutly true.   there are many instructors who almost give out to promote themsleves and their systems.
I have seen a couple of 7th degree shotokan people (at 35 years of age) whom I can't belive would have had that rank 20 years ago at that age.  Also I have seen 10 year old 2nd degree black belts, Personaly I don't belive in that ) so these kids may make 5th degree befor they are 20.  Bothof these examples in no way says the instructor is qualified or that the student is determined  it only means that rank has been given.
Aside from that I know of a few people localy whom promote each other in their given organisations if the same rank is given to them in the other guys organisation. This is the "old boys club" doing it's McDojo ranking at it's upmost level of impress with rank theroy.


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## D.Cobb (Apr 22, 2005)

I know an instructor, that trained for less than 3 full months with a self promoted GM(go figure  :idunno: ) , and was promoted to 5th Dan in the GMs style. That was way back in the 1980s, but not a one of his students has managed to get past 4th Dan. How does that work?
I suppose I should point out that he was dan graded, 1st or 2nd in another style before this happened.

--Dave


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## VSanhodo (Apr 22, 2005)

When I began this thread, I had no idea there would be such a response. I wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for taking the time to leave posts. I truly appreicate it.

Thanks again

San


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## VSanhodo (Apr 22, 2005)

Lastnight I got a phone call from a former student of mine who now has his own school. Now first of all let me say, This guy trained with me for less than a yea. During that time he never was a regular. He would come once this week, skip two or three weeeks come twice etc. For some reason he thought I would be more than happy to help him by sitting on a judging panel. Seems he now runs his own school and now is a 5th Dan and the senior instructor of a system he calls  BrazilianKempoJitsu. It seems this system is a combination of Kempo and JuJitsu and it is his little brain child. 
Now whats even more pathetic to me is that he has 145 studnets he wants to test at the end of May. Now get this, He is going to test 145 students starting at 10 am and he said testing should end around 2pm. HOW??????????????
How in the hell do you test 145 ppl in 4 hours???? You dont. Ive said it beofre and I will say it again, Belts do 3 things.
1: they give the student a sense of accomplishment
2: they hold up your pants
3: they generate revenuse for the school. 

Most but clearly not all ppl today are not interested in good martial arts they like fancy and flash but with no substance.
One examply I like to givewhich I think relates to quality of quanity.
Martial arts is like a birthday cake, most ppl really enjoy and seek out the prettiest most fancy, colorful birthday cake they can buy. Everyone likes the outside, the frosting. Its the prettiest and sweetest.
Now if you learn how to bake a cake you can literally bake thousands of different cakes. Once you have the foundation the rest is easier. Kinda like teaching a man to fish.
Thanks again folks, as always I look forward to yur posts.

San


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## RRouuselot (Apr 22, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> Lastnight I got a phone call from a former student of mine who now has his own school. Now first of all let me say, This guy trained with me for less than a yea. During that time he never was a regular. He would come once this week, skip two or three weeeks come twice etc. For some reason he thought I would be more than happy to help him by sitting on a judging panel. Seems he now runs his own school and now is a 5th Dan and the senior instructor of a system he calls BrazilianKempoJitsu. It seems this system is a combination of Kempo and JuJitsu and it is his little brain child.
> Now whats even more pathetic to me is that he has 145 studnets he wants to test at the end of May. Now get this, He is going to test 145 students starting at 10 am and he said testing should end around 2pm. HOW??????????????
> How in the hell do you test 145 ppl in 4 hours???? You dont. Ive said it beofre and I will say it again, Belts do 3 things.
> 1: they give the student a sense of accomplishment
> ...


 That's just messed up........
 Why don't you take him up on his invite and ask him to do a demo on you but knock HIM on his butt instead. 
 Maybe his 145 students will re-think their training.


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## ninhito (Apr 22, 2005)

it sounds like hes rushing them through so he can just get his money and run...that's what gives martial arts its badd name right there...


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 22, 2005)

VSanhodo said:
			
		

> I got a phone call from a former student of mine who now  has his own school. This guy trained with me for less than a year, he never was  a regular, would come once one week, skip two or three weeks come twice etc. he  now is a *5th Dan* and the senior instructor of what he calls  BrazilianKempoJitsu (his little brain child).
> 
> For some reason he thought  I would be more than happy to help him by sitting on a judging panel to test 145  students. "He's Pathetic"!!!
> San


 Interesting isn't it!   I had  a similar situation 20 or so years ago.. except that my guy only came to  a bout  6 or so classes!  A year or so later I get wind that he has opened a  "_realistic_ combat school" complete with hard core training with baseball  catchers shins to be able to attack the legs etc.

 He as well, had  attracted quite a few students and what's more is he was charging  _*double*_ what I was and  giving by far LESS!  

 One of my old students (a junior brown belt a couple of years prior) that was now studying with him dropped in and wanted to join our sparring class,  I said ok but told a couple of my upper ranks to keep an eye on him .......  he sparred a few rounds (very respectfully) with a couple of students then _*I*_personally matched up with him.  We exchanged a  bit..... and I told him that I don't see any difference in the skills that he  left with from the "new" influence that he now is experiencing.  He smirked, and  then I really layed on some heavy combinations in which he was totally helpless  and acquired a small cut above one of his eyes (quite by accident), I was really  upset because we had to stop.  I had no intention of any injury to him but just to  "spar heavily" and I now was not able to continue to "spank" him...... really  bugged me. LOL.  So we went and butterflied his eye and talked a bit and he  agreed that he had not advanced as he thought he had.

 Just another  example or story like many I have heard from Mr. Parker, Steve LaBounty,  Tom  Kelly, Frank Trejo, Bob White, and many others.  This type of person will always  be around.

 Some say they are worthless.... I say not.  We can always use  them as bad examples!!


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## DeLamar.J (Apr 22, 2005)

I think a persons credibillity is the #1 issue. If you hold a 1stdan, thats enough to catch the public eye and show that you have some martial knowledge. The main issue is your credibillity.
1.Can you kick some ***? 
I know that sounds bad, but you better be able to walk the walk in front of your students.
2.Can you provide the right atmosphere people require?
Dragons on the wall, a little fountain, music, inscence, swords on the wall. All those things draw people in and make it more fun. It makes your school memorable. Even if its not that great of a school, you will have all of the toothless tigers in the martial arts paying you a monthly fee, and there are many of them.
3.Can you provide depth in your style to keep high ranking students?

These are just things off the top of my head.


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## VSanhodo (Apr 22, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> That's just messed up........
> Why don't you take him up on his invite and ask him to do a demo on you but knock HIM on his butt instead.
> Maybe his 145 students will re-think their training.


Hi Robert:
I know even Taika has had a few bad eggs, but until it happens to you. I have to say I am a little more than ticked. When he was my student he was fair at best and now he a 5th Dan. To his students he is amazing but in truth this guy is horrible. Someone recently said ppl like this fellow are what gives the Martial Arts a bad name. Hmmmmmm maybe I should go home and introduce him to my little friend (PAIN).

Take care and by the way thanks for your help.

San


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## James Kovacich (Apr 22, 2005)

> Again some one tell me how the language or the customs of the the parent country will make you a better martial artist?  How long do we have to adopt another culture before we make the arts our own??  How long did Japan wait before making Te in Karate-How long did Korean wait before making Karate Tae Kwon Do??



I have to agree with this guys quote on another thread because it speaks the *TRUTH.*

I think Asia should *STAY OUT* of America's buisness. Our systems are no longer theirs. The Gracies *PROVED* just how weak all systems *REALLY* were and at that time Japan *PROVED* themselves to be weak. They didn't get better until years later after they *CROSSTRAINED.* 

Watch the early Pride fights and the others that sprang up. There was almost no rules. *NO EXCUSES!* :uhyeah:


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## arnisador (Apr 22, 2005)

Wow, 145 students in 4 hours...it's like a Rev. Moon wedding!


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## arnisador (Apr 22, 2005)

Knowing the culture can help understand the reasoning behind the techniques in some cases but for the most part I agree. Still, for those who like the "art" in their martial arts, it can be fun to learn!


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 22, 2005)

Good to know that, a) only getting into a ring matters; b) every good martial artist in Asia tried cage fighting.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 22, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I have to agree with this guys quote on another thread because it speaks the *TRUTH.*
> 
> I think Asia should *STAY OUT* of America's buisness. Our systems are no longer theirs. The Gracies *PROVED* just how weak all systems *REALLY* were and at that time Japan *PROVED* themselves to be weak. They didn't get better until years later after they *CROSSTRAINED.*
> 
> Watch the early Pride fights and the others that sprang up. There was almost no rules. *NO EXCUSES!* :uhyeah:


 This exact same post is # 146 and can be found at: 
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23373&page=3&pp=50


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 22, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> not absolutly true. there are many instructors who almost give out to promote themsleves and their systems.
> I have seen a couple of 7th degree shotokan people (at 35 years of age) whom I can't belive would have had that rank 20 years ago at that age. Also I have seen 10 year old 2nd degree black belts, Personaly I don't belive in that ) so these kids may make 5th degree befor they are 20. Bothof these examples in no way says the instructor is qualified or that the student is determined it only means that rank has been given.
> Aside from that I know of a few people localy whom promote each other in their given organisations if the same rank is given to them in the other guys organisation. This is the "old boys club" doing it's McDojo ranking at it's upmost level of impress with rank theroy.


I was being sarcastic


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 23, 2005)

Oh, my goodness gosh, there was a lot of boldface print on that thread!

And while I know very little about sokeships, and only somewhat more about the fantasy of becoming O-Sensei, I absolutely loved the comment of Don Roley's about breaking those chains of Asian tradition and disdaining Asian masters so that it became possible to:

"....put on chains made in America and start bowing to American masters."

That's what's really at stake, of course. Forcing everything that's important about martial arts into a choice between autocracy that comes out of a feudal world that's disappearing, and the new autocracy that comes out of modern capitalism. Forcing everything into a little tiny box that can be sold on Pay-Per-View. Or into "Extreme Martial Arts:" you know; little aluminum propeller blades for ESPN2. Oh, great--no wonder titles are for sale. What's that comment of Kensho Furuya's? About students today walking in the door expecting to buy knowledge, so no wonder so many martial arts teachers behave like shopkeepers?

"What parent in their right mind would turn their daughter into an outboard motor?"---Kurt Vonnegut
"Don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters."---Bob Dylan
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."---Pete Townshend


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 23, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> That's what's really at stake, of course. Forcing everything that's important about martial arts into a choice between autocracy that comes out of a feudal world that's disappearing, and the new autocracy that comes out of modern capitalism. Forcing everything into a little tiny box that can be sold on Pay-Per-View. Or into "Extreme Martial Arts:" you know; little aluminum propeller blades for ESPN2. Oh, great--no wonder titles are for sale. What's that comment of Kensho Furuya's? About students today walking in the door expecting to buy knowledge, so no wonder so many martial arts teachers behave like shopkeepers?


:asian:



Yeah, how much is that doggy in the window? The one with "papers" is a better dog.

A dilema:
Gypt Mi Lee is a 5th Degree Black Belt with a school.
Bruce Dough is a 10th Degree Black Belt with a school a block away.

Does Johnny Public go to Gypt Mi Lee 'cause sterotyping "Asians" teach better?
Or-does Johnny Public go to Bruce Dough 'cause govern by math, a 10th degree has "double knowledge" than a 5th Degree?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 23, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Watch the early Pride fights and the others that sprang up. There was almost no rules. *NO EXCUSES!* :uhyeah:


 Hey I just watched PRIDE live on the T & V and Vito Belfour just got a good ol' fashoin *** whoopin' by a Muay Thai guy....isn't Muay Thai an "asian" art.....like you said *NO EXCUSES!:321:*


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## RRouuselot (Apr 23, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> :asian:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Well you are the expert on getting ripped off.....twice was it? Whay don't you tell us.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 23, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Hey I just watched PRIDE live on the T & V and Vito Belfour just got a good ol' fashoin *** whoopin' by a Muay Thai guy....isn't Muay Thai an "asian" art.....like you said *NO EXCUSES!:321:*



Like I said NO EXCUSES. 

You left out the important part.
*"The Gracies PROVED just how weak all systems REALLY were and at that time Japan PROVED themselves to be weak. They didn't get better until years later after they CROSSTRAINED." * 

Of course the rest of the world has caught up but that is only because they have accepted reality and have crosstrained ever since.

Your post is irrelevant. I clearly stated the EARLY and you referred to a current event.


----------



## James Kovacich (Apr 23, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> This exact same post is # 146 and can be found at:
> http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23373&page=3&pp=50


I stated that.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 23, 2005)

Since my reputation points are being blown out the roof I OWE the post.

I don't have issues with Asians or any other people. *WE ARE ALL ONE PEOPLE.*

I have issues with "Asian Wannabes" living in the East trying to regulate the West.

Have a good day.


----------



## shesulsa (Apr 23, 2005)

_* Moderator's Note:

   Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful and return to the original topic.

    -Georgia Ketchmark
    -MT Moderator-*_


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## RRouuselot (Apr 23, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> I have issues with "Asian Wannabes" living in the East trying to regulate the West.


 Why don't you give us some examples of this since it is sooooooooooo rampant?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 23, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Like I said NO EXCUSES.
> 
> You left out the important part.
> *"The Gracies PROVED just how weak all systems REALLY were and at that time Japan PROVED themselves to be weak. They didn't get better until years later after they CROSSTRAINED." *
> ...


 It's obvious you don't read peoples posts or not well......

*Ultimate Fight in Brazil 1951​*  In July 1951 Kimura and two other fellow Japanese Judoka were asked to compete in Brazil. Kimura at age 34 was accompanied by a 240 pound (110kg) college champion Yamaguchi (6th degree black belt at the time) and Kado (5th degree black belt). It was to be a Judo/Jiu-jitsu fight. 

   Kado accepted a challenge from Helio Gracie -- Brazilian champion for 20 years. The loser was determined by tapping out due to a choke or armbar, or by being knocked out of commission. Ippon (clean powerful throws) or osaekomi (pinning) would have no effect on the results of competition. During Kado's fight he threw Gracie several times. Gracie, who was in excellent condition, demonstrated ukemi, breaking the throws with little injury. After 10 minutes of frustration, Kado decided to apply a choke. However, the masterful Gracie applied his own choke rendering Kado unconscious. With Kado's passing-out, Gracie was declared the winner and became a national hero of Brazil!

   Weeks later, Gracie challenged the remaining two team members, either Yamaguchi or Kimura, to a match. Yamaguchi refused for fear of injury, however Kimura accepted the challenge. There were 20,000 spectators present. A coffin was brought in by Gracie's followers. Presumably, Kimura was to be killed by Gracie. On the day of the match, the President and Vice President of Brazil attended at ringside.

   During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoinage (one arm shoulder throw), osotogari (major outer reap), and haraigoshi (sweeping hip/loin). He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame (modified upper four corner hold), kesa-gatame (scarf hold), sankaku-gatame (triangle hold). Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osotogari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (chicken-wing arm lock). The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow.

            Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his            corner "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner            by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that            Gracie had great fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's            tremendous will to win.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 23, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Well you are the expert on getting ripped off.....twice was it? Whay don't you tell us.


You were an expert also...how many years?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 23, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> You were an expert also...how many years?


 
   Sorry I don't get it.
 I trained with a guy a couple of years even after I figured out some of the stories he was telling weren't true......the style (Pai Te Lum) is a legit style, and I continued to train in it because I liked the style not the guy teaching it.

   You, on the other hand seem to have been duped not once but twice by people that seem to have no real name and by styles which nobody seems to be able to verify, or at least you are not forthcoming about what they are calledyou still havent sent me that certificate we discussed..how long does it take to scan it anyway? Since you claim you dont have a scanner I know Kinkos can scan it for you. 

   However, like so many that have claimed to have certs and no scanners I doubt I will ever see anything from you.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 23, 2005)

Thread closed for review


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