# How do we safeguard young girls when approached like this.....



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

Firstly, a caveat. This is not a gender politics discussion, it's not about whether such groups as '*Incel*' exist, though there is good evidence they do ( the site this came from was 'Incels.me', the poster was  reported but whether any action was taken I don't know) the driver who mowed down people in Canada allegedly 'vowed loyalty' to them/one. At least one social media site has banned groups from posting.  The point is that whether it's a group posting or an individual, _this type of post is all over social media, it's inciting those who have the mindset or inclination to do this. The posts are also shared and don't die even if the originator is banned or even arrested/charged.
_
*My point and my only point of posting* this is to help find ways we can help the young girls who have already been affected by this ( I know two in my area, not just 'know of' actually know them personally) or how to warn and instruct girls about what they should do if they find themselves in this situation ( whether or not incited by these posts). The police in our area are aware and I know that the Home Office here have this in their sights and are attempting to 'do something', what they can do I don't know I'm not an IT expert. I have reason to know that this is more than a local problem, not even just a UK problem but most likely a worldwide problem, certainly it's on English speaking sites. I also know there is a lot of worry from parents as well as children about issues like this.

I have copied one of the posts,  I specifically would like us to explore ways and means of helping girls, as many know I'm a Girl Guiding leader, if we can come up with good solutions I can share them widely. I have racked my brains hence my asking for help, it's not directly a self defence situation though it could be I imagine. It goes against the grain to allow someone to scare me but it's not me it's scaring but young girls so running away ( which is what my young friends did) seems a good idea though it's what the poster and his ilk want presumably. 


I have kept the post to last deliberately, I have also just copied it rather than link it, to take away all comments on it made by various people to keep any political arguments out of it. ( some though suggest running away, some confronting the person) 

so how do we protect and warn our children?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

Yeah, there's nothing "harmless" (from his last sentence) about that. I don't know how to help that, other than to be the adult who steps in and interferes with his "fun".


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, there's nothing "harmless" (from his last sentence) about that. I don't know how to help that, other than to be the adult who steps in and interferes with his "fun".




That's my problem, what on earth can we actually do to protect girls as young as he's targeting. So frustrating. After I had this on my FB, I got a friend telling me her friend had this done to her then I had PMs from two others I know saying them too. All girls of 14 and 15.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> That's my problem, what on earth can we actually do to protect girls as young as he's targeting. So frustrating. After I had this on my FB, I got a friend telling me her friend had this done to her then I had PMs from two others I know saying them too. All girls of 14 and 15.


And it raises the quandary of what to teach. "Stranger danger" was a major theme in the US for a while, and actually led to problems (kids would no longer go to an adult for help if they got lost, for instance). Strangers are generally not a threat...but then there's people like this. And I don't believe for a moment that someone lacking empathy as much as he obviously does will not progress to more direct harm.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And it raises the quandary of what to teach. "Stranger danger" was a major theme in the US for a while, and actually led to problems (kids would no longer go to an adult for help if they got lost, for instance). Strangers are generally not a threat...but then there's people like this. And I don't believe for a moment that someone lacking empathy as much as he obviously does will not progress to more direct harm.




The police here have taken descriptions and are doing everything from that point of view though if the man/men are found there can only be a warning because there's no proof anything has happened, but they aren't offering any sort of advice beyond the usual get to a shop, busy street etc thing. I can't blame them I can't think of much more than that and it galls me to think that it plays into their hands if 'just' scaring them is the point of their sick game.
I think too that it will go beyond 'just' scaring.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The police here have taken descriptions and are doing everything from that point of view though if the man/men are found there can only be a warning because there's no proof anything has happened, but they aren't offering any sort of advice beyond the usual get to a shop, busy street etc thing. I can't blame them I can't think of much more than that and it galls me to think that it plays into their hands if 'just' scaring them is the point of their sick game.
> I think too that it will go beyond 'just' scaring.


It's crap like this that makes me want to go vigilante sometimes.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 27, 2018)

Serial rapists and killers do not become that way in an instant. It is a progression of smaller steps.  By reading his post , this is clearly one of those steps for him.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 27, 2018)

i do not know how applicable it would be for that age group but i am thinking about the girl logging in on her cell phone to face book live and turning, point the phone at him and confronting the man.
"your on facebook live,,,why are you following me?"

i would advise all parents for teens to have a cell phone.  they need to be linked into another family members account with GPS tracking app.  real life situations have happened where the girl was abducted and was able to send a text and her GPS location via an app to her boyfriend who contacted police and save her.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i do not know how applicable it would be for that age group but i am thinking about the girl logging in on her cell phone to face book live and turning, point the phone at him and confronting the man.
> "your on facebook live,,,why are you following me?"
> 
> i would advise all parents for teens to have a cell phone.  they need to be linked into another family members account with GPS tracking app.  real life situations have happened where the girl was abducted and was able to send a text and her GPS location via an app to her boyfriend who contacted police and save her.




Thank you, that's a great idea, I know people do go on about teenagers and their phones but if they can also be a life savers, they should have them.


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## Buka (Apr 27, 2018)

Great topic, Tez.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

Buka said:


> Great topic, Tez.



Thank you, I've been quite worried about it quite honestly. It's something that has been hidden for a while but is coming out from under it's stone. I think the investigations into the Canadian guy who ran down mostly women the other day has galvanised people into looking a bit further. My daughter's sister in law is a police expert on child abuse, online grooming etc and says this type of thing is taken seriously but it's hard to pin down on the internet, though Interpol and Europol are working on it. 
However, at the moment I think we need to work on protecting children without scaring them, difficult because it's such a nebulous threat in many ways which I do think could materialise into something worse as the deaths in Canada have proven.


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## pdg (Apr 27, 2018)

I've written 3 replies to this thread, and they're all crap...


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> I've written 3 replies to this thread, and they're all crap...




I did say it was difficult.

The age of the girls this guy is targeting makes them too young to cope with a direct confrontation, something some had suggested on FB. I would do it but I'm not the target.

On the point about it being harmless psychological game or whatever, one of the girls I know had to receive help as her confidence was severely knocked by the incident, there is a lost of innocence almost in being scared like that. We need a way of equipping them for encounters that may or may not be dangerous but not make them fearful of every shadow.

Do we teach basic self defence techniques or are they going to be too young and too weak, what if they don't want to learn? Do we insist on them going out in twos and threes? Just what do we do here?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I did say it was difficult.
> 
> The age of the girls this guy is targeting makes them too young to cope with a direct confrontation, something some had suggested on FB. I would do it but I'm not the target.
> 
> ...


I think basic SD techniques are probably part of the solution, though there are limitations (which you mentioned, so I won't). Things like teaching them to live video the guy help (though there's an obvious danger for that to be misused by someone who either gets frightened by an innocent or simply thinks its funny). Teaching them to find an adult for support when they feel endangered (even a stranger) can help. Having them travel in groups helps. 

Unfortunately, I think it's going to be a rather lengthy list of small "helps" that make a difference. That some of the solutions carry their own problems doesn't make it any easier.


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## Buka (Apr 27, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I did say it was difficult.
> 
> The age of the girls this guy is targeting makes them too young to cope with a direct confrontation, something some had suggested on FB. I would do it but I'm not the target.
> 
> ...



As you mentioned, "psychological games" can be quite dangerous. Creepy, too. 

Tough questions, Tez. Important ones.


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2018)

The prevention is basic self defence. If you are vulnerable. Go to where you are less vulnerable. 

Be aware that it is occurring.

Gang up with support if you can.

Find an exit to somewhere safe.

Same as when angry people wanted to stalk me. That is all I did.(mostly)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 28, 2018)

I'm partial to the live feed idea, but with that it requires a level of confrontation some aren't comfortable with. If they're not, they can at the very least call a parent or 911 (or the UK equivalent), and just staying on the phone with them if they dont want to confront the person.


But this is a very serious issue. One of the social media sites, reddit, that shut it down...they had someone posting on the 'incel' forum, who was planning a tape on that forum. That person then posted on a more popular forum (dont recall which one) posing as a teenage girl, asking if she got raped in X state/county (in a specific scenario), how could she find out who did it. They shut down the sub after that, but its since reopened under a slightly different name. Its scary to me how many people have that mindset, and they just continuously encourage the mindset for each other, making it worse. I'm scared by it and I'm a Male in my mid 20s, with 19 years of MA experience, I cant imagine what reading that stuff is like for a teenage girl with no experience in SD.


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

So I've pondered a little...

The live feed thing, I think, is a terrible idea.

It's hugely confrontational and intimidating in it's own way.

Try it yourself, go for a wander around - you'll have no problems finding someone simply walking behind you in the same direction.

Now, turn around and shove a camera phone in their face and demand to know why they're following you - for added fun, if they deny it hassle them by repeating "you were following me, tell me why".

Be sure to post your results.




Edit: more soon


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## mrt2 (Apr 28, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I did say it was difficult.
> 
> Do we teach basic self defence techniques or are they going to be too young and too weak, what if they don't want to learn? Do we insist on them going out in twos and threes? Just what do we do here?


I had this discussion on Facebook with an acquaintance, and some people she knew.  She posted a series of videos showing women foiling attacks or just beating creeps' butts with what looked to me like advanced martial arts techniques with some sort of a message like, ladies, don't be a victim.  

I disagreed, saying these looked like quite advanced techniques, and that unless what she had in mind was for women to commit themselves to realistic martial arts training several times a week for years, this was not a realistic thing to say.  I then got into a back and forth with a guy who teaches women self defense who disagreed with me.  But my point was, self defense is a good thing to know, but you are only as good as your training.  Unless you train realistically, and regularly, a one off or short course in self defense is not likely to work.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Firstly, a caveat. This is not a gender politics discussion, it's not about whether such groups as '*Incel*' exist, though there is good evidence they do ( the site this came from was 'Incels.me', the poster was  reported but whether any action was taken I don't know) the driver who mowed down people in Canada allegedly 'vowed loyalty' to them/one. At least one social media site has banned groups from posting.  The point is that whether it's a group posting or an individual, _this type of post is all over social media, it's inciting those who have the mindset or inclination to do this. The posts are also shared and don't die even if the originator is banned or even arrested/charged.
> _
> *My point and my only point of posting* this is to help find ways we can help the young girls who have already been affected by this ( I know two in my area, not just 'know of' actually know them personally) or how to warn and instruct girls about what they should do if they find themselves in this situation ( whether or not incited by these posts). The police in our area are aware and I know that the Home Office here have this in their sights and are attempting to 'do something', what they can do I don't know I'm not an IT expert. I have reason to know that this is more than a local problem, not even just a UK problem but most likely a worldwide problem, certainly it's on English speaking sites. I also know there is a lot of worry from parents as well as children about issues like this.
> 
> ...



I tell people even women.   Accept and embrace the fact that there are crazy people and people who don't have your best interest in mind.  Unfortunately there are more people who don't have your best interest in mind, than crazy people.  Never put your safety in the hands of other.  Never assume that someone won't harm you.


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I tell people even women.   Accept and embrace the fact that there are crazy people and people who don't have your best interest in mind.  Unfortunately there are more people who don't have your best interest in mind, than crazy people.  Never put your safety in the hands of other.  Never assume that someone won't harm you.




Okay so how do we tell a 12 year old girl that?


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

I have so many thoughts about this, but I don't seem to be able to make them coherent...

One of them though.

I'm a wandery person. If I go into town or something I very rarely take a direct line. I'll go from A to B via 17 other places that I don't stop at.

It's likely happened that I've completely inadvertently "followed" someone for an indeterminate amount of time/distance.

Had they turned around and pointed a lens at me, what weight would my truthful explanation of "I'm having a wander" carry? Would the police just say "oh right, no problem, carry on" if someone reported me for tailing them?

In fact, why would I have to justify my being in a place at all? I go lots of places for no real reason.


To be continued...


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Okay so how do we tell a 12 year old girl that?



I'm quite sure the vast majority of 12 year old girls are fully aware people exist who would want to do them harm.

The real question is how do we (and subsequently said 12 year old girl) identify them?


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm quite sure the vast majority of 12 year old girls are fully aware people exist who would want to do them harm.
> 
> The real question is how do we (and subsequently said 12 year old girl) identify them?




You would be surprised how many young girls are actually quite naïve, we are so used to seeing precocious children on the television and films that we forget that it isn't true of most of them.




pdg said:


> It's likely happened that I've completely inadvertently "followed" someone for an indeterminate amount of time/distance.



if you read my OP it's not just about being followed which most people wouldn't notice but of stopping, asking directions and the girl's name, all done in a manner designed, deliberately to scare the girl. No sane man these days would *stop a young girl on their own and ask directions and* *then her name. No man should be such a creep as to scare girls deliberately just to get some kind of sexual thrill out of it.
*
It is a sad reflection on our times but it's what it is and we have to do our part not to make matters worse.


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> if you read my OP it's not just about being followed which most people wouldn't notice but of stopping, asking directions and the girl's name, all done in a manner designed, deliberately to scare the girl. No sane man these days would *stop a young girl on their own and ask directions and* *then her name. No man should be such a creep as to scare girls deliberately just to get some kind of sexual thrill out of it.
> *
> It is a sad reflection on our times but it's what it is and we have to do our part not to make matters worse.



If you read the last two paragraphs of the forum post you pasted into your OP, you'll see reference to "follow a girl until she notices you", or "look for a girl walking by herself and follow her, after a while they notice you".

The way it reads is that this particular person found the "chase" excited him after the first instance involving direct contact (stopping to quiz them, then following) and he progressed to the following without contact - causing distress by simply being present.

A girl getting approached and quizzed is a different situation to 'just' being obviously followed around and much easier to identify (but unfortunately, not particularly easier to prepare for or deal with).


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> If you read the last two paragraphs of the forum post you pasted into your OP, you'll see reference to "follow a girl until she notices you", or "look for a girl walking by herself and follow her, after a while they notice you".




*If* I read it? do you think I haven't read it? Are you trying to be obtuse about this?

Have you ever followed someone deliberately? It's more than possible to follow someone, whether accidently or deliberately, without them noticing. However the sub makes it a point to ensure the girl would notice him, he acts in a manner that causes suspicion and fear, you meandering around a town would not do that even if someone noticed you so it's unlikely that you would get anyone in your face though why you are making this about you I'm not sure.


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## pdg (Apr 28, 2018)

Forget it, I'm out.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Okay so how do we tell a 12 year old girl that?


I would and have told 12 year old children the exact same thing.  I elaborated as needed with them but for the most part 12 year girls are (like other 12 year olds) are smart enough to understand.  Many have already gone through the process of making friends and meeting someone that they don't like, or someone who doesn't like them.  

Before I teach anything about self defense, I want to make sure that their mindset is where it needs to bee so they don't base their decision off of "oh he won't do that, he's too nice."  There are many examples of people who we never thought "would do such a thing."  Bill Cosby for example.  12 year old children these days often have a better grasp of things then my generation and the generation before me.  They are exposed to more than I was as child.  The key part of telling a 12 year old what I posted is to talk to the 12 year old as a person, or as an elder giving youth a life lesson (this works better for me, even with my son). 

I try not to talk to them as a child "who doesn't understand."  The reason why is because I give real life examples that they can refer to and think about.    For example, this post about stalking women as being fun, could be an example of what some predators think.  Show the 12 year old, ask them what do they think about it, how does it make them feel?  But only ask them these question after you have given them information to work with.

Talks like this were common when I worked in the Youth Development field.  Our main goal was to keep children from making costly mistakes and to steer them from trouble and bad influences.

But the moment you talk to the 12 year old like a child will be the exact same moment they will ignore you and do the opposite of what you told them, just to "prove a point."  Once they get into that mindset, then the only way they will learn is through the hard way.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> You would be surprised how many young girls are actually quite naïve


They are naive about somethings, but at that age they have the intelligence to learn even if they don't fully believe what is coming out of an adults mouth.   I always try to educate them on what to look out for vs just saying don't do this.   By giving them the warning signs to look out for they can compare what they see to what they were told.  The more warning signs that they can spot the more likely they feel that the adult is right.   Provided the lecture that the adult gave also included what do to, when they see the warning signs, then at least they will have some pre-thought out options, vs trying to think of what to do on the fly.

it's not fool proof but it's them something to work with, which is better than going in totally naive and clueless.


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Forget it, I'm out.




I thought you would be.


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## Anarax (Apr 28, 2018)

IMO, younger people should be taught action priority for the given situation. The FB live isn't a bad idea, but not everyone knows what FB live is nor have a strong understanding of how technology works. A potential outcome with the FB live option is escalation from the stalker. If you're still alone when you use the FB live threat that may increase the likelihood of them getting violent. Getting on the phone immediately with the police and at the same time looking for the most crowded area would be my first priority. I believe there are phone apps that send a distress signal when activated, check with your local law enforcement to see which ones are compatible with their systems and what they recommend.

I think confrontation in these type of situations should be a last resort and only done if cornered with no exit. Depending on the laws in your area, pepper spray is a great option. However, they must be trained in how to use it effectively and safely(for the user).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> So I've pondered a little...
> 
> The live feed thing, I think, is a terrible idea.
> 
> ...


That's the issue I pointed to earlier. There's a lot of opportunity for abuse, both intentional and not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I had this discussion on Facebook with an acquaintance, and some people she knew.  She posted a series of videos showing women foiling attacks or just beating creeps' butts with what looked to me like advanced martial arts techniques with some sort of a message like, ladies, don't be a victim.
> 
> I disagreed, saying these looked like quite advanced techniques, and that unless what she had in mind was for women to commit themselves to realistic martial arts training several times a week for years, this was not a realistic thing to say.  I then got into a back and forth with a guy who teaches women self defense who disagreed with me.  But my point was, self defense is a good thing to know, but you are only as good as your training.  Unless you train realistically, and regularly, a one off or short course in self defense is not likely to work.


Some people will get real benefit from a one-off course. Those fall into two groups: those who suddenly understand they are capable of fighting back (these are people who are able to hit and struggle reasonably using only their athleticism) and those who suddenly understand they need training to be able to do what they want so they go and get started. The first group is pretty limited, and some one-off classes won't include any (I've probably seen only a handful of these among women). The second group is probably smaller than it should be, given these folks are going to a SD seminar.

Outside those two groups, one-off seminars don't provide much long-term benefit. To me, those groups are the reason I ever do them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> I have so many thoughts about this, but I don't seem to be able to make them coherent...
> 
> One of them though.
> 
> ...


That's a realistic issue. I've caught myself being behind the same person for extended periods on many occasions. I noticed this driving just yesterday - it would have been easy for this driver to think I was following them (especially since they sort of cut me off when they got in front of me the first time). I can see how someone could easily get the impression they are being followed if they were either overly sensitive to it (had a scare previously, for instance) or I just did something that looked fishy (one of those times when I suddenly realize I'm going the wrong way and turn to walk the other direction, just as they happen to pass me). It'd certainly be embarrassing to have someone ask me on live video what the hell I'm doing. It could even screw up someone's career (suppose someone is considering hiring me as a consultant for a big project, and sees that video on Facebook).

All the same, when someone is actually following, it's a tactic that ensures they know they're not going to go unrecognized. I'm on the fence about this.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> You would be surprised how many young girls are actually quite naïve, we are so used to seeing precocious children on the television and films that we forget that it isn't true of most of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I doubt this is anything new, Tez. We just hear about it more (and more quickly) because our information flow has changed. And we recognize many things as being improper that would previously have been dismissed (like a lot of the stuff out of Hollywood in the last few months).


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I doubt this is anything new, Tez. We just hear about it more (and more quickly) because our information flow has changed. And we recognize many things as being improper that would previously have been dismissed (like a lot of the stuff out of Hollywood in the last few months).




I was just meaning that children aren't always as 'grown up' as children portrayed in films and television programmes. Comedies etc rely on the child actors portraying 'smart' kids for the laughs etc, and dramas wouldn't portray normal life which can be quite pedestrian for television, films etc.


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## Oni_Kadaki (Apr 28, 2018)

This sounds like an attempt at rebranding stalking to be "innocent." The individual in the OP followed this girl for the express purpose of making her feel uncomfortable and in fear for her safety, which plays right into the NY definition of stalking. Doesn't that earn the piece of **** following the girl in this scenario a face full of pepper spray?


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 28, 2018)

i want to address a few issues that were brought up.  the predators post said (paraphrased)  _the girl notices and goes from walking to walking briskly, to running.  she tires to quicken her pace and lose me._  meaning she is taking a path that is purposeful to prove to herself that he is following her.  notice he said she quickens her pace to a run.  i do not think anyone meandering though a busy area like a shopping mall is going to be running.   when someone is following you in this manner he is purposeful and will be looking at her at certain points.   now i do not want to speak for the other gender but i believe we all know when someone is making glances at us and i think women are more in tune to men looking at them in undesirable ways.
while a theoretical case could be made that filming the potential stalker might entrap innocent men, i find it highly doubtful in the real world.  sexual predators do not want to be caught. the last thing they want is to be on camera.  (it ruins any alibi of "i wasnt there, it wasnt me")    they will find another target if they feel in danger of being exposed.  in the case it really was an abduction there would be photographic evidence for police to use for investigations.
as far as confrontation,  i do not think it would escalate.  ill have to think about this some more but i do not think so. this is about a young girl i have a feeling its not going to turn into a fight but i could be wrong.
also it doesnt have to be confrontational. i do think that approach works well in many cases but it takes courage.  the girl could do what girls tend to do...take selfies.  consistently pointing the phones camera lens in his direction.  the point is he is going to know he is on camera and the hope is he will abandon his target for someone else. 
using the phone camera is a tactic, it doesnt have to be Facebook live, it could be used anyway the person feels will work in that particular situation.
the underlying principal is to "create a strategic stalemate".   this means taking defensive actions as soon as possible.  calling the police because you think someone is following you would not be my advise.  first off, most times the victim is not sure where that line is , when should they call.  its like having chest pain.  _do i call the doctor?  do i call an ambulance?  i dont want to look like a fool calling the ambulance and the EMT"s for heartburn.  maybe ill wait a bit and see if i feel better._
sometimes its obvious, most times its not.

so what i advise is to react as soon as you *think* something is happening. but that doesnt mean press the panic button and call the police (who are not going to be much help anyway). you dont jump in absolutes.  you make smaller incremental  moves creating that "strategic stalemate"  where it will cause a reaction of either defusing the attempted attack or forcing the assailants hand to reveal himself if he is determined.  in which case you now know the extent of the danger and can jump from 0 to 60 in flight or flight mode, color RED.  by acting in this manner you should have put yourself in a better position to defend yourself.   Cross the street,  leave the premises,  move closer to the door,  position yourself to conceal your draw, cover/ concealment,  get ahead of the crowd.  its not yelling fire in a movie theater, its small and subtle so if its a false alarm you can recoup and go about your day.  but the sooner you react the more effective it is.


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## Anarax (Apr 28, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> sexual predators do not want to be caught. the last thing they want is to be on camera. (it ruins any alibi of "i wasnt there, it wasnt me") they will find another target if they feel in danger of being exposed. in the case it really was an abduction there would be photographic evidence for police to use for investigations.


I agree that photographic evidence is damaging, but it has to reach the police to be useful. Many criminals don't think like we do and won't evaluate situations 3-dimensionally. Meaning, they *might* think if they get the phone they'll prevent the photos from being shared. There have been instances of armed robbers shooting the victims because they recognized the perpetrator.


hoshin1600 said:


> as far as confrontation, i do not think it would escalate. ill have to think about this some more but i do not think so. this is about a young girl i have a feeling its not going to turn into a fight but i could be wrong.


I'm not saying it's guaranteed that it will, but some criminals act irrationally. I also specified it would be dangerous if they did the FB live threat alone opposed to other people around. The FB live with people around isn't a bad idea, given it will also garner attention from people near by.      


hoshin1600 said:


> the point is he is going to know he is on camera and the hope is he will abandon his target for someone else.


It may, I favor calling the police because it might prevent the other targets from being victimized, among other reasons.


hoshin1600 said:


> calling the police because you think someone is following you would not be my advise. first off, most times the victim is not sure where that line is , when should they call. its like having chest pain. _do i call the doctor? do i call an ambulance? i dont want to look like a fool calling the ambulance and the EMT"s for heartburn. maybe ill wait a bit and see if i feel better._
> sometimes its obvious, most times its not.


Using the heart attack example, calling the paramedics when you have slight discomfort in your chest for a few seconds is probably jumping the gun. However, knowing the signs and symptoms of a heart attack vs heartburn will help in making better educated decisions, the same goes for stalking. Teaching them where the line of paranoia ends and reasonable suspicion begins is important. It's more than if they simply feel they're being followed, but there are visual ques that strongly support they are being followed.


hoshin1600 said:


> but that doesnt mean press the panic button and call the police (who are not going to be much help anyway).


If there's a reasonable suspicion that they're being followed then the police will be helpful. I've had friends and family call because of stalking suspicions, both on foot and vehicular. The police responded within a reasonable amount of time and were quite helpful. I can't say you'll get a timely response every time, but the police should respond if there's a reasonable suspicion. Essentially, I think it comes down to when(situational parameters) law enforcement will help opposed to if.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Apr 29, 2018)

@Anarax   your widening the scope of the situation. the op had a specific situation and that calls for as specific an answer as can be given. by widening the scope it adds variables to the problem that in turn creates needless complexity.  this often happens when people are just trying to win the argument rather then a solution to the problem.  if you prefer to call the police, sure... that is one solution.  i am only presenting my advise on how to address the issue and give students some better tools.  problems need solutions and these need to be thought through in a deep and meaningful way.  if we are to be teachers who give advise to others who will in turn rely on our instruction when their lives hang in the balance,  then we need to seriously think though our responses and follow each line of thought to its conclusion.  nothing in self defense is 100%  we deal in percentages and probabilities.  always trying to increase our chance of survivability.
for this reason i am going to respond to your post. its not to argue but rather to bring more clarity to my own previously given answers.


Anarax said:


> I agree that photographic evidence is damaging,


in the OPs post there is a situation where a young girl is being followed.  we know from the predators on line comments that (at this time) he has no intention of abduction and only intends on scaring her.  she does not know this.   my thinking is that it would be a good response in her situation to get the predators pictures and several of them in not video.  if this is a real abduction then the police investigation will go though her on line interactions with a fine tooth comb.  if right before her last sighting she posted a video or several photos of a man, (even if he is in the back round)  you can guarantee that lead will be followed up on.
taking a photo may dissuade the predator but could also be used to find the victim in the case it was an actual abduction.



Anarax said:


> I'm not saying it's guaranteed that it will, but some criminals act irrationally.


we are discussing a specific situation.  the predator is following the victim.  this is a premeditated behavior.  it is in no way an impulsive act.  this is not irrational behavior.  



Anarax said:


> I also specified it would be dangerous if they did the FB live threat alone opposed to other people around. The FB live with people around isn't a bad idea, given it will also garner attention from people near by.


 follow this line of thought though.   the predator is following the victim,  if the situation is in a lone dark ally then there would be no question about him following her and his intentions.  she should run ...and fast to a safe location.  there should be no confrontation initiated on her part.    however the situation as i understood it, is that this could be happening in a crowded public space. this allows the predator to follow without causing suspicion and puts doubt in her mind and allows him the alibi " i wasnt stalking, i was just window shopping".  my advise was directed at this situation where the victim has some doubt.


Anarax said:


> I favor calling the police because it might prevent the other targets from being victimized, among other reasons.


if a was a predator i wouldnt stand on the street corner trying victim after victim, like casting a fishing pole in the water.  you select the target very carefully and then proceed,  if the attempt goes bad you get out and find another location on a different day.  there will not be much the police can do. the predator will be long gone.



Anarax said:


> Using the heart attack example, calling the paramedics when you have slight discomfort in your chest for a few seconds is probably jumping the gun. However, knowing the signs and symptoms of a heart attack vs heartburn will help in making better educated decisions,


you must not be in the age bracket where you need to worry about these things yet,  but my analogy is very accurate.  
https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-mistake-heart-blockages-for-heartburn
_"I do know ...(the numbers), however, that a very large group of people can’t tell the difference between the two. Doctors in Emergency Rooms use tests to make sure you are not having a heart attack because they are not always sure themselves."
"unless you have a lot of experience with both types of pain I say to you, that you should go to the Emergency Room immediately."_
no one wants to go to the hospital and pay that bill if its not a heart attack.  so they wait,, ill wait to see if it goes away.  sometimes it goes away and sometimes they collapse and die.  that was my point.  there is a threshold and a big area of being unsure. you dont know when you should act because your not sure.  your actions will not be definitive.


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## jks9199 (Apr 29, 2018)

The issue Tez brings up is very complex.  Incel and other similar groups are seeking power that they feel they lost or never had... they're predators, and part of their reward is causing discomfort -- kind of like a cat toying with a mouse.  All the actions taken to stop them once noticed are feeding that; they're forcing their victim to notice them, and to react.  How do you stop them when the very actions taken to stop them reward them?  Consciously ignoring them is one option; in other words, know that they are there, but don't let their presence change your behavior or reactions.  But... that also might goad more extreme actions.


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## jobo (Apr 29, 2018)

Just been on one of the web sites, there is some mEssed up stuff on there. Lots of mostly young men who have come to the conclusion they are so ugly that no woman would ever touch them, they refers to themselves as sub human. I suspect the truth is thAt most of them are just ordinary and they have advanced body dismophiaAND seriously underdeveloped social skills

They are very very angry at good looking maLes , mALEs who have gf, all women and God in particular and judging by the constant reference to suicide in nearly every post, theIr more of a threat to themselves than anyone else.

It's really quite disturbing to read


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## Anarax (Apr 29, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> your widening the scope of the situation. the op had a specific situation and that calls for as specific an answer as can be given. by widening the scope it adds variables to the problem that in turn creates needless complexity.


These are complex problems because of the wide range of variables that are very much real, thus addressing the variables isn't adding "needless complexity." Though differentiating between being stalked alone or in a crowd isn't "widening the scope."



hoshin1600 said:


> this often happens when people are just trying to win the argument rather then a solution to the problem.


You misinterpreted my post. I agreed with most of what you said and even mentioned the FB live isn't a bad idea. However, I did say that using the FB live threat when alone with the supposed stalker might cause escalation. I also said how the police will be helpful in that situation.



hoshin1600 said:


> if we are to be teachers who give advise to others who will in turn rely on our instruction when their lives hang in the balance, then we need to seriously think though our responses and follow each line of thought to its conclusion.


That's why I said what I said, and I fully understand the importance of the advice that everyone gives in this thread.



hoshin1600 said:


> in the OPs post there is a situation where a young girl is being followed. we know from the predators on line comments that (at this time) he has no intention of abduction and only intends on scaring her. she does not know this.


Exactly, nor will any young girls in the future know with 100% percent certainty what the stalker's intentions are. That is why I clarified going off visual ques opposed to feelings to determine to a reasonable degree if they're being followed.



hoshin1600 said:


> this is a premeditated behavior. it is in no way an impulsive act. this is not irrational behavior.


That's not the point. The point is that you will not always reach accurate conclusions about criminal behavior because many think differently than law abiding citizens. That is why I gave the example of robbers killing there victims after they were recognized.



hoshin1600 said:


> if the situation is in a lone dark ally then there would be no question about him following her and his intentions. she should run ...and fast to a safe location. there should be no confrontation initiated on her part. however the situation as i understood it, is that this could be happening in a crowded public space. this allows the predator to follow without causing suspicion and puts doubt in her mind and allows him the alibi " i wasnt stalking, i was just window shopping". my advise was directed at this situation where the victim has some doubt.


Tez's post and the post of the stalker didn't clarify if he did it with people around or not. Exploring multiple options under different conditions(alone or people around) is important for both are potential situations. Differentiating the options is crucial for their actions should fit the given situation. 



hoshin1600 said:


> if a was a predator i wouldnt stand on the street corner trying victim after victim, like casting a fishing pole in the water. you select the target very carefully and then proceed, if the attempt goes bad you get out and find another location on a different day. there will not be much the police can do. the predator will be long gone.


That depends on how you act and how the police approach the situation. At the very least the police will make a report and can start a file on the guy. They can add a description, coordinate with the local news to warn people, look into similar reports in the surrounding areas, etc.



hoshin1600 said:


> you must not be in the age bracket where you need to worry about these things yet, but my analogy is very accurate.


The biggest difference is there aren't consequence by contacting law enforcement, but there is(medical bills) when you call the paramedics when you immediately feel discomfort in the heart area.



hoshin1600 said:


> no one wants to go to the hospital and pay that bill if its not a heart attack.


True, but you aren't billed when you call the police.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I was just meaning that children aren't always as 'grown up' as children portrayed in films and television programmes. Comedies etc rely on the child actors portraying 'smart' kids for the laughs etc, and dramas wouldn't portray normal life which can be quite pedestrian for television, films etc.


Children are usually smart, but the world is dirty and that part of life tends be grounded more on "life experience" than intelligence.  

Things like broken hearts, bullying, bad grades, failures as a teen or youth, argument, and even fights adds to our life experiences and helps to shape our understanding of how we see the world and other humans.  Exposure to news also help.  Much of what I knew about the world and humans as a teen came from:
1. Public Radio
2. Family discussions about people
3. Me being shy and watching the behavior of other teens.   Because I was shy I paid close attention to what other people did, how they respond, and what was considered cool or not cool.  I also listened to other people's problems which gave me some insight on what other people experienced.   This was sort of a safe way to learn from the decision that other people made.

I learned a lot about the world that way.   I wasn't too smart in the books and I struggled to make good grades, but when it came to people, one could say "I've heard and seen it before."   I've seen how drugs and alcohol messed up other people's lives so I knew that I wasn't going to make those same mistakes or at the very least try not to make them.

Many youth hear some of these same stories where other's messed up, but for whatever reason, some students have the mind set that "It's not going to happen to them."  That they are "different" and that they can do the same thing action and not fall in the same hole.   We see this type of behavior even in adults.

I think when it comes to children, how do we go from telling them that they are "special and unique" to " you aren't special nor unique"  and if you do the same action, it will result in the same mistake, and a similar out come.   I don't know how well I've raised my son in this area, but I have often said to him,  "That people think they are special and that bad things won't happen to them like it happened to someone else, and that's where they make the mistake and learn the hard way."   People say don't take drugs (illegal drugs) and people still do it, even though we always see how it turns out.   I showed him some before and after meth pictures and told them that all of those people made the same mistake, simply because they thought it wouldn't and couldn't happen to them.   I often try to point out this same mentality whenever I can point out new examples of it.   

My theory that if children can understand that they aren't invulnerable in this context then they can avoid the mistakes that others have made.  They can kind of use the failings of others to help avoid mistakes that they otherwise would have.    I think bullying, stalking, and the Post of the guy who gets off on stalking people is a good start for "There are sick people out there, and it's people like that who would try to harm you."   I know it's easier said than done, but having a set of tools that they can depend on will help them to better navigate the world.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> They are very very angry at good looking maLes , mALEs who have gf,


Second part of the equation.  We always talking about what a woman or girl should do but we never talk about what needs to happen to males.  What is going on in their lives where their mind takes hold of this perception that makes them feel angry about what others have.   What went wrong?  Is there something that they are missing or something that is part of who they are. Were they born to be a creep?


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 29, 2018)

Anarax said:


> These are complex problems because of the wide range of variables that are very much real, thus addressing the variables isn't adding "needless complexity." Though differentiating between being stalked alone or in a crowd isn't "widening the scope."



Your comments on alone or in a crowd was not specifically what I was referring to when I said widening the scope. It was more your entire way of thinking and how you are approaching the problem.  I should make it clear that I do not think your wrong. I just approach it differently. I try to distill things down to its simplest most basic form so that my solution can cover the most variables possible.
To use a physical martial art example. Every teacher will agree that one of the most annoying situations is when your showing a technique and someone keeps interjecting.." well what about this...what if he does this...what if..what if.."  they are bringing up variables with the aim of using complexity to invalidate the technique, but more than that they are intended to undermine the teachers credibility.
Variables matter but only when your actually defending yourself, not when someone is trying to express an underlying concept. Using the phone is a tactic, one out of an infinite number. The underlying principal is as i explained "strategic stalemate" .  You focused on the details but perhaps missed the underlying  principal.  This is why I made the comment about widening the scope because as with most of martial arts if you understand the principles the details don't matter so much. You can change all the variables you want, you can use all the what if's ...the principal hold true.

EDIT: I should add that calling the police is always advisable during or after any crime or self defense situation. But it's seldom a useful defense for immediate and present danger.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> Just been on one of the web sites, there is some mEssed up stuff on there. Lots of mostly young men who have come to the conclusion they are so ugly that no woman would ever touch them, they refers to themselves as sub human. I suspect the truth is thAt most of them are just ordinary and they have advanced body dismophiaAND seriously underdeveloped social skills
> 
> They are very very angry at good looking maLes , mALEs who have gf, all women and God in particular and judging by the constant reference to suicide in nearly every post, theIr more of a threat to themselves than anyone else.
> 
> It's really quite disturbing to read



The scary thing is that every single one of them has the potential to be the next mass shooter in a school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Second part of the equation.  We always talking about what a woman or girl should do but we never talk about what needs to happen to males.  What is going on in their lives where their mind takes hold of this perception that makes them feel angry about what others have.   What went wrong?  Is there something that they are missing or something that is part of who they are. Were they born to be a creep?


While this is an important question, we can't address individual threats this way before they happen. Perhaps (we don't have enough information and knowledge yet) we could find a way to reduce the number of them through societal/social actions, so as I said it's an important question to ask.


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## Tez3 (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> While this is an important question, we can't address individual threats this way before they happen. Perhaps (we don't have enough information and knowledge yet) we could find a way to reduce the number of them through societal/social actions, so as I said it's an important question to ask.




The whole thing of how this comes about baffles me, I am at a lost to actually understand how this comes about. I've read up quite a lot about this so called 'movement' and am still no wiser why people would think and behave this way. 
This is extremely worrying, not just for females but males who also seem to be at risk, talk of shootings, acid attacks etc. Actually makes IS look like moderates. this is a very good article.
Incel, the misogynist ideology that inspired the deadly Toronto attack, explained

We have government sponsored groups  here that combat Islamic terrorist recruitment and propaganda, it seems we must also have something to combat this 'Incel revolution' as well. This is something very wrong in our world.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 30, 2018)

@gpseymour  & @JowGaWolf 
I see it as a societal problem that really can't be discussed here because it has political undercurrent. Look at the MGTOW movement, the way SJW mindset punishes boys and men making them guilty and the societal push for victimization.  There are mental health repercussions for these things.
A 7yo boy is being told via  media, teachers and peers the problems of the world are his fault, he is guilty because he is white, he is a rapist, he's not allowed to have an opinion, that he is evil.
But then again that sounds like religion over the last thousand years. Lol. It's no wonder people's brains are all mesed up.


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## Tez3 (Apr 30, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> @gpseymour  & @JowGaWolf
> I see it as a societal problem that really can't be discussed here because it has political undercurrent. Look at the MGTOW movement, the way SJW mindset punishes boys and men making them guilty and the societal push for victimization.  There are mental health repercussions for these things.
> A 7yo boy is being told via  media, teachers and peers the problems of the world are his fault, he is guilty because he is white, he is a rapist, he's not allowed to have an opinion, that he is evil.
> But then again that sounds like religion over the last thousand years. Lol. It's no wonder people's brains are all mesed up.




I think however some of these though are specifically regional, not found in other countries or even continents and are the consequence of political and religious thought in those areas. Religion and politics in the UK are poles apart and don't really have anything to do with each other. In the Indian continent and most of Asia, white privilege isn't an issue and men are still very much in the forefront of everything, same with the Middle East yet this incel thing affects them as well.

One of the reason I wanted to keep away from the political here was the blaming of women that often goes on even here. In the UK we don't see the radicalism of much other than Islam which we are  to dealing with (but isn't such a big problem as is portrayed in some American media but then they have an agenda to fulfil.)

We have recently had our social media flooded by Americans who, misunderstanding, either deliberately or unintentionally,  a medical situation here have been posting some horrendous accusations and comments against British people, our police and our courts. The reason I mention this is because of the sheer nastiness of comments and misinformation that is being given to presumably most Americans.  It's quite staggering to be honest, this is in the 'public' part of social media what the hell is being said in those places where the public don't go? I get the feeling i really don't want to delve any deeper into this world of hate, misinformation and basically horror but then closing your eyes to the problem isn't going to help.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 30, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I think however some of these though are specifically regional, not found in other countries or even continents and are the consequence of political and religious thought in those areas. Religion and politics in the UK are poles apart and don't really have anything to do with each other. In the Indian continent and most of Asia, white privilege isn't an issue and men are still very much in the forefront of everything, same with the Middle East yet this incel thing affects them as well.
> 
> One of the reason I wanted to keep away from the political here was the blaming of women that often goes on even here. In the UK we don't see the radicalism of much other than Islam which we are  to dealing with (but isn't such a big problem as is portrayed in some American media but then they have an agenda to fulfil.)
> 
> We have recently had our social media flooded by Americans who, misunderstanding, either deliberately or unintentionally,  a medical situation here have been posting some horrendous accusations and comments against British people, our police and our courts. The reason I mention this is because of the sheer nastiness of comments and misinformation that is being given to presumably most Americans.  It's quite staggering to be honest, this is in the 'public' part of social media what the hell is being said in those places where the public don't go? I get the feeling i really don't want to delve any deeper into this world of hate, misinformation and basically horror but then closing your eyes to the problem isn't going to help.



You kind of prove my point Tez.
As adults we can go back and forth and debate over politics and ideologies. But to a youngster it effects the way the brain develops and they don't have the mental capacity to cope with negative messages the way an adult does. These messages have ramifications.


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> the blaming of women that often goes on even here



I know I said I was out, but this particular part has drawn me back in.

In the context of this thread subject, the women (and girls) can have absolutely no blame placed upon them.

It matters not how they may or may not be dressed (or anything else, but clothing is a common excuse), it's no excuse whatsoever for anyone to say "she was asking for it", because 'she' was extremely unlikely to be doing so.

If a woman looks nice, she's going to be looked at. She may even get approached because of it - that's how some people used to meet before things like eHarmony/tinder - but pushing (as I've heard someone do with "but I know you want it, look at you", and I had to step in) is well beyond the realms of acceptability.

But that's a woman, not a girl. A young girl shouldn't be getting older teens/men approaching them in that fashion at all - I know some girls look older than they are, but mistaking 11 for 17? Even if they're 16 and look 16, an older guy shouldn't really be going there anyway.


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## Tez3 (Apr 30, 2018)

The problem with incels doesn't seem to be confined to their wanting to hurt or scare females, they also seem to have a problem with men. 
Incels Categorize Women by Personal Style and Attractiveness


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The problem with incels doesn't seem to be confined to their wanting to hurt or scare females, they also seem to have a problem with men.
> Incels Categorize Women by Personal Style and Attractiveness



If this was our first discussion and I gave my views on this sort of thing, you'd likely label me as some type of "man hating ultra feminist male with identity issues".

But I won't, because that might damage the picture of me you already have


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## Runs With Fire (Apr 30, 2018)

My younger sister is fourteen.  She isn't alowed to go anywhere on her own and few places without an adult.  That in itself is big.  Another big part, mabey the biggest, is regularly hold conversation about and walk them through a gameplan for  potential dangers.  No, you can't have every posible detail planned for ahead of time, but if something happens that is 50% of what you thought could happen then you have half a plan already. Saves valuble time and helps to keep a clear thought process.  
  I remember my dad telling me " if anyone is ever really folowing you, go to an adult male and loudly tell them "Dad, these guys are folowing me and I'm scared, and they will know you are in trouble."  I did that once, I was 10 or so, probly saved me as two of the three guys following me were arrested later that day.    Another huge part is for us capable adults ( perhaps with a small bit of vigilanteism in our blood)  to remain aware of those around us.

  I was at the Rivertown Crossings Mall a few years ago eating noodles at the food court.  Before I became a martial artist, so, not the most observant.  I noticed a group of young high school girls walking buy and chatting up a storm , no bigee, lots of them here.  I saw them a second time a few minets later.  The third time, one of them kept looking over her shoulder and none of them were talking.  Thought it looked odd.  Fifteen minuets later, I saw them again, scared amd walking fast going past me in the sporting goods store.  I saw a group of mangy boys following them. Well, the girls were quite scared. so I stepped in.  The guy at the gun counter called security but they were on the other side of the mall.  Me and the clerk stood right in their way and angrily stared at them.  The creeps stopped, walked about, amd muttered to themselves.  Security met the girls at the counter and escourted them to thier car.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> So I've pondered a little...
> 
> The live feed thing, I think, is a terrible idea.
> 
> ...



That was what struck me too.  First, you will have to slow down or stop to do the phone thing.  Second, you can't count on the fact that the person following won't become violent.  I would guess it would depend on where the incident was taking place and what the offender really had in mind.

I think it might well work sometimes, but sure would worry about the times it might not.

Good topic for discussion.

EDIT:  The writer of the article is obviously trying to teach others, despite the protestations against rape.  Anybody read 2600?


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 30, 2018)

it is a very unfortunate situation that the world is in.  we are in a time of history where media and technology is so pervasive in our lives. there is a lot of negativity and many turn to existential nihilism.  they believe the world is a horrible and unfair place and is so bad the entire thing needs to be burnt down and destroyed.
not to be nihilistic myself but i believe its going to get worse before it gets better.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> So I've pondered a little...
> 
> The live feed thing, I think, is a terrible idea.
> 
> ...



sorry i missed this post somehow,  not sure if you still feel this way.  but yes its confrontational its meant to be.,, thats why i said i wasnt sure if it was age appropriate.  but to your scenario to do it to an innocent person is a little mean.  i wouldnt do this unless i was sure the person was following me and i was really sure.

EDIT:  and i am a 50yo guy,  i would get a different reaction than a younger women.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The problem with incels doesn't seem to be confined to their wanting to hurt or scare females, they also seem to have a problem with men.
> Incels Categorize Women by Personal Style and Attractiveness


They appear (not unexpectedly) to dehumanize the women they talk about. I think their type has always existed. To some extent the least radical were tolerated in the past, and we just didn’t hear about the others much, unless we actually knew one (that “crazy uncle”). They were isolated, so kept more to themselves. With social media, they now have a “community”, which allows them to perceive themselves as normal, and to get reinforcement and approbation for their attitudes.


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## Anarax (Apr 30, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I should make it clear that I do not think your wrong. I just approach it differently.


Nor do I think you are either. I agree our approaches are just different.



hoshin1600 said:


> Every teacher will agree that one of the most annoying situations is when your showing a technique and someone keeps interjecting.." well what about this...what if he does this...what if..what if.." they are bringing up variables with the aim of using complexity to invalidate the technique, but more than that they are intended to undermine the teachers credibility.


That's not what I said nor implied in my post. My overall point was there's an entire spectrum of tactics one can use to deter a stalker, but many of the tactics will be dependent on the situation.



hoshin1600 said:


> Variables matter but only when your actually defending yourself, not when someone is trying to express an underlying concept. Using the phone is a tactic, one out of an infinite number. The underlying principal is as i explained "strategic stalemate" . You focused on the details but perhaps missed the underlying principal.


My concept in this matter for the young girl is survival/protection. Doing what she can to prevent being assaulted/abducted/murdered is the only thing I deem important. Going to a crowded place, calling the police, using pepper spray she's trained how to use are all actions based on the survival/protection concept.



hoshin1600 said:


> I should add that calling the police is always advisable during or after any crime or self defense situation. But it's seldom a useful defense for immediate and present danger.


Hence is why I said


Anarax said:


> Getting on the phone immediately with the police and at the same time looking for the most crowded area would be my first priority. I believe there are phone apps that send a distress signal when activated, check with your local law enforcement to see which ones are compatible with their systems and what they recommend.


and


Anarax said:


> Depending on the laws in your area, pepper spray is a great option. However, they must be trained in how to use it effectively and safely(for the user).



I approach it from multiple angles but with the same underlying concept of survival/protection. How can you prepare before the situation(training, buying pepper spray, etc), and what to do during the situation(head for crowded areas, call police, etc).


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## pdg (Apr 30, 2018)

Anarax said:


> using pepper spray



Seeing as how the topic being discussed is based on events that have happened in the UK, it's probably sensible to point out that pepper spray is not legal to carry here.

It's classed as an offensive weapon and public possession carries a maximum sentence of 10 years. 

The age of criminal responsibility is 10 (possibly still different in Scotland), so anyone over that age will be dealt with directly.

Probably not the best recommendation to make...


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## pgsmith (Apr 30, 2018)

OK, I have a bit different view than most here it seems.



Tez3 said:


> You would be surprised how many young girls are actually quite naïve, we are so used to seeing precocious children on the television and films that we forget that it isn't true of most of them.


  This is quite true, depending upon where you live. You'll see much less naivety in the inner cities and more depressed areas because the lessons being taught to the young are much different there. When I was a kid, all the kids knew who was hanging around and who was watching them. It was a matter of survival.



gpseymour said:


> I doubt this is anything new, Tez. We just hear about it more (and more quickly) because our information flow has changed. And we recognize many things as being improper that would previously have been dismissed (like a lot of the stuff out of Hollywood in the last few months).


  This is very true also. I believe there has always been a certain percentage of the population that is this way. In the past, smaller numbers of people resulted in a smaller number of psychopaths overall. Combine this with the inefficient news media and social mores of the times, and this was something that rarely got discussed.

  Now there are a great many more people, and all of us are intimately connected through the internet. We not only have a lot more psychopaths in sheer numbers, we also hear about their outrages much more often.



Tez3 said:


> I was just meaning that children aren't always as 'grown up' as children portrayed in films and television programmes. Comedies etc rely on the child actors portraying 'smart' kids for the laughs etc, and dramas wouldn't portray normal life which can be quite pedestrian for television, films etc.


  This is the fault of the parents. It is my opinion that parents today attempt to shield their children from all the bad things in life. While this may (arguably) result in a happier childhood, it also results in children that do not have the necessary tools to ensure their own safety. While you can argue that they _shouldn't_ have to keep themselves safe, the reality is that they are required to be their own first line of defense. In order for that to happen, they have to have a very good idea of what they need to be wary of, and parents just aren't teaching their children this.

  I was as guilty as anyone else about this. I grew up in a rough low rent neighborhood. I did not want my kids to have to go through what I did as a child, so I made sure they grew up in a much nicer area with better schools, and I shielded them from a great many of life's harsh realities. It was only later when they struggled learning how to get by on their own that I realized what I disservice I had done them by shielding them so completely. I needed to expose them more to the realities of life, and allow them to fail more at things that wouldn't result in their injury. This would have made things much easier for them once they were on their own, and would have most likely prevented my youngest from being sexually assaulted.

  Encouraging the parents to be more proactive in teaching their young women about predators and how to spot them would go a long ways toward making young women safer. Teaching both the parents, as well as the young women, what areas to avoid, how to maintain awareness of their surroundings, and what to do to discourage a predator (attract attention mainly) would also go a long way toward making young women safer. These things are fairly easily done, and yet no one is doing them on a consistent basis.

  OK, that's my two cent's worth for the day.


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## Anarax (Apr 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> Seeing as how the topic being discussed is based on events that have happened in the UK, it's probably sensible to point out that pepper spray is not legal to carry here.
> 
> It's classed as an offensive weapon and public possession carries a maximum sentence of 10 years.
> 
> ...



Good to know, I was unsure what the UK laws concerning pepper spray were. However; the overall concept of survival/protection is universal and some from where it's legal may find the pepper spray recommendation useful .


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## Tez3 (Apr 30, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> This is the fault of the parents.




The thing is, that's not my point, as I explained already, it's that the entertainment media has the writers of films etc make children seem far more grown up and smart than they really are, it's obvious, how else would kids on television solve murders, become pop stars etc. Look at children's television shows and those children bear little resemblance to real children's lives. The television children and families are created for smart jokes, witty comments etc.


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## Oni_Kadaki (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> They appear (not unexpectedly) to dehumanize the women they talk about. I think their type has always existed. To some extent the least radical were tolerated in the past, and we just didn’t hear about the others much, unless we actually knew one (that “crazy uncle”). They were isolated, so kept more to themselves. With social media, they now have a “community”, which allows them to perceive themselves as normal, and to get reinforcement and approbation for their attitudes.



That's exactly it. Putting a label on it validates/"normalizes" their feelings and facilitates their gathering and mutual reinforcement of these disgusting beliefs.


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## drop bear (Apr 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> While this is an important question, we can't address individual threats this way before they happen. Perhaps (we don't have enough information and knowledge yet) we could find a way to reduce the number of them through societal/social actions, so as I said it's an important question to ask.



Not sure how it is uncommon. Bullying has the same motivation, fights in pubs have the same motivation, spreading rumors in the workplace has the same motivation.

Every guy I kick out of a pub wants me to feel bad. That is why they stand out the front yelling abuse or stalk me in the car park after work.

We are not talking some unique motivation from a small percentage. Just a unique target group.


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## oftheherd1 (May 1, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i want to address a few issues that were brought up.  the predators post said (paraphrased)  _the girl notices and goes from walking to walking briskly, to running.  she tires to quicken her pace and lose me._  meaning she is taking a path that is purposeful to prove to herself that he is following her.  notice he said she quickens her pace to a run.  i do not think anyone meandering though a busy area like a shopping mall is going to be running.   when someone is following you in this manner he is purposeful and will be looking at her at certain points.   now i do not want to speak for the other gender but i believe we all know when someone is making glances at us and i think women are more in tune to men looking at them in undesirable ways.
> while a theoretical case could be made that filming the potential stalker might entrap innocent men, i find it highly doubtful in the real world.  sexual predators do not want to be caught. the last thing they want is to be on camera.  (it ruins any alibi of "i wasnt there, it wasnt me")    they will find another target if they feel in danger of being exposed.  in the case it really was an abduction there would be photographic evidence for police to use for investigations.
> as far as confrontation,  *i do not think it would escalate.  ill have to think about this some more but i do not think so. this is about a young girl i have a feeling its not going to turn into a fight but i could be wrong.*
> also it doesnt have to be confrontational. i do think that approach works well in many cases but it takes courage.  the girl could do what girls tend to do...take selfies.  consistently pointing the phones camera lens in his direction.  the point is he is going to know he is on camera and the hope is he will abandon his target for someone else.
> ...



That is a well thought out answer @hoshin1600.  I have been holding back and giving this some thought, but I want to give my opinion of three of your comments above.  I not saying for sure they are very wrong, and maybe not wrong at all.  The problem I see is that I think it is difficult to give a one-over-all answer for all circumstances.  And that will apply to my answers as well.

I understand not thinking it would escalate.  I want to believe that.  But these type of people can so easily escalate their desires and therefore their own actions.  Note how the writer of the article kept saying he did not want to escalate to violent action.  Yet he is doing things to imply to young girls that he will.  I think he doth protest too much.

Ask any policeman what he thinks about calling police if you think you are in danger.  I think he will tell you to do so.  I think he will be right if he does tell you to do so.  And if he is able to respond in time to identify the perpetrator, as you said, the perpetrator will have to take that into account before he considers doing so again.

I agree with quick and thought out reaction.  But I think more attention needs to be paid to your expression of not pressing the panic button.  I think that is something that should be taught any potential victim in any situation.  How do we do that with young girls when it is perhaps difficult to teach to adults?  I don't know if I can provide good teaching methods, at least not without more though.  But I really think that is a good point.


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## jobo (May 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> They appear (not unexpectedly) to dehumanize the women they talk about. I think their type has always existed. To some extent the least radical were tolerated in the past, and we just didn’t hear about the others much, unless we actually knew one (that “crazy uncle”). They were isolated, so kept more to themselves. With social media, they now have a “community”, which allows them to perceive themselves as normal, and to get reinforcement and approbation for their attitudes.


Yes but, the community is feeding off its self to make them feel less normal and more sub human and more isolated and more angry, 

People do ask for support/ help are told forget it, it's pointless, kill yourself, it's a really really unhealthy place for vulnerable people let alone the potential damage to others out side that community.

There's a post asking others to post vids of nice looking girls getting punched or run over as this apparently Cheers e them up. 

As Jim morrison Sang " women are wicked, when your unwanted"


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## Tez3 (May 1, 2018)

Don't forget though the Incel groups are also anti men 'who aren't them', the ones they call 'Chads', there's talk of acid attack, shootings, and of course using vehicles. They blame these men for having too much sex with women ( no, I don't know either!)
Basically the Incel movement is a terrorist movement who recruit online, they in fact do share a lot of ideology with IS as well as far right movements. There's evidence that the ultra Xtian groups also have their part to play as women are seen as subservient to men and that often young men from these groups find it hard to make relationships with females. 

Get Serious About Online Misogyny Before More Women Are Killed | HuffPost

This is a quote that floors me _" Basically, their virginity is a discrimination or apartheid issue, and only a state-distributed girlfriend programme, outlawing multiple partners, can rectify this grand injustice. Yet at the same time, they hate victims, snowflakes, liberals, those who campaign for any actual equality." _From here, another insightful article about the Incel groups. ‘Raw hatred’: why the ‘incel’ movement targets and terrorises women | Richard Hartley

Perhaps whatever else we do we need to be educating people on what our shared values should be. I think too that nay group advocating violence towards anyone needs to be treated as criminal and terrorist. We nee a radical rethink on a great many things that many have to come accept as just being part of normal life. The way of course needs to come from the top, governments, cultural leaders etc but of course it won't because many support this type of thinking so basically we are in rowboat with no oars heading for a waterfall...... or as we say here, we are up sh1tcreek.


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## Tez3 (May 1, 2018)

PS I don't mean a political solution I mean a humanitarian one. Unlikely I admit but if we don't try we will never know.


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## hoshin1600 (May 1, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is a well thought out answer @hoshin1600.  I have been holding back and giving this some thought, but I want to give my opinion of three of your comments above.  I not saying for sure they are very wrong, and maybe not wrong at all.  The problem I see is that I think it is difficult to give a one-over-all answer for all circumstances.  And that will apply to my answers as well.
> 
> I understand not thinking it would escalate.  I want to believe that.  But these type of people can so easily escalate their desires and therefore their own actions.  Note how the writer of the article kept saying he did not want to escalate to violent action.  Yet he is doing things to imply to young girls that he will.  I think he doth protest too much.
> 
> ...



i do not think we actually disagree.  one of my faults here on MT is that it takes me a long time to type replies out. sometimes its because i am trying to get correct wording other times its because i am looking at reference material to make sure i got my facts right (tho admittedly i should do that more than i do). because of time restrictions i sometimes boil down and distill a huge amount of information into a small snipet of a sentence.  i do not have time to write out an entire combative theory for my sentence to have a context.  the thoughts are in my head but it doesnt translate to the page.

my entire theory on this subject is all about time.  imagine a horizontal time line with a dot right in the middle.  that dot represents "the combative event" .  the sooner you can start reacting to the situation the better, thus you want your reactions to be on the left side of the time line,  more left is better.  the actual assault is the dot. you dont want to be reacting at that point along the time line.  this is what i mean by not jumping to pressing the panic button.  i am referring to that point in time when the assault is in progress.  that is the time to panic and react with physical resistance.  but prior to that we can still be reacting to the situation.  my thought is we should not be waiting for the combative event we should be taking counter measure long before that point in the time line.  BUT self defense tends to only focus on the physical confrontation.  i advise reactionary behavior long before that happens.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not sure how it is uncommon. Bullying has the same motivation, fights in pubs have the same motivation, spreading rumors in the workplace has the same motivation.
> 
> Every guy I kick out of a pub wants me to feel bad. That is why they stand out the front yelling abuse or stalk me in the car park after work.
> 
> We are not talking some unique motivation from a small percentage. Just a unique target group.


I never said it was uncommon.

While those all share a common immediate motivator, it's not from the same drive, at all. The thought process of the average guy you throw out of the bar is not nearly the same as the predator in the OP.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Don't forget though the Incel groups are also anti men 'who aren't them', the ones they call 'Chads', there's talk of acid attack, shootings, and of course using vehicles. They blame these men for having too much sex with women ( no, I don't know either!)
> Basically the Incel movement is a terrorist movement who recruit online, they in fact do share a lot of ideology with IS as well as far right movements. There's evidence that the ultra Xtian groups also have their part to play as women are seen as subservient to men and that often young men from these groups find it hard to make relationships with females.
> 
> Get Serious About Online Misogyny Before More Women Are Killed | HuffPost
> ...


The word "terrorist" is not misapplied to some of these, though most will never actually express anything we could call terrorism. I think "radicalized" is more accurate - and maybe we (societal "we") can learn something from other studies into radicalization to reduce the self-radicalization of this group, too. Of course, now we're getting into sociology and social psychology, but that's going to end up being a chunk of the answer to this, eventually.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> PS I don't mean a political solution I mean a humanitarian one. Unlikely I admit but if we don't try we will never know.


I think most psychologists would want to find a way to help this group. And I think it's highly likely most can be helped. There are almost certainly at least an average number of psychopaths/sociopaths (by population distribution) among them, and those are probably beyond our current knowledge to begin to help. But if we can help a portion deal with themselves better, that reduces the radicalization opportunity for more of them (fewer like-minded people reinforcing their world view), and the threat to girls.


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## oftheherd1 (May 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think most psychologists would want to find a way to help this group. *And I think it's highly likely most can be helped*. There are almost certainly at least an average number of psychopaths/sociopaths (by population distribution) among them, and those are probably beyond our current knowledge to begin to help. But if we can help a portion deal with themselves better, that reduces the radicalization opportunity for more of them (fewer like-minded people reinforcing their world view), and the threat to girls.



I would like to agree with the bolded part.  But I am afraid by the time those begin to engage in their activities, it is too late.  If you can identify them before that (I'm not sure how) you may have a chance.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I would like to agree with the bolded part.  But I am afraid by the time those begin to engage in their activities, it is too late.  If you can identify them before that (I'm not sure how) you may have a chance.


Agreed. There is a psychological reward from the behavior. Once they get into that reward, it's harder to work on the issues behind their thoughts. I'm thinking more in the long term, finding ways to help before they reach that stage.


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## hoshin1600 (May 1, 2018)

ive really been in deep thought about this entire topic.  Thanks Tez for posting about it.

i do not think this group really fits the terrorism label at least so far as prevention.  there is over lap between them but i do not think they will share the some solution.  Anti terrorism seems to do best at defunding and breaking up organized actions, often arresting individuals from a group that can be linked to terrorist activities.  but Incel would not be acting as a group and they do not depend on funding.  Anti terrorism failed miserably with the Boston Marathon bombers, exactly because they worked alone.  Yes we could shut down websights but that ends up being a game of "wack a mole". all that will accomplish is having them go deeper into the web and harder to find.



Tez3 said:


> Basically the Incel movement is a terrorist movement who recruit online


   i havnt done my due diligence and read the web sights yet so please dont hammer me to hard if i got this next part wrong.
does Incel really recruit?  or are they more like "_other perverted sights"   (_i am at work and really dont want to type out the word and the kind of sight i am referring to...big brother is always watching)... where they only attract people who are already disturbed?  the internet is often like a gathering.  "build it and they will come".....

i think if this is the case then traditional anti terrorist efforts will not really work, it might call for another different type of solution.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> ive really been in deep thought about this entire topic.  Thanks Tez for posting about it.
> 
> i do not think this group really fits the terrorism label at least so far as prevention.  there is over lap between them but i do not think they will share the some solution.  Anti terrorism seems to do best at defunding and breaking up organized actions, often arresting individuals from a group that can be linked to terrorist activities.  but Incel would not be acting as a group and they do not depend on funding.  Anti terrorism failed miserably with the Boston Marathon bombers, exactly because they worked alone.  Yes we could shut down websights but that ends up being a game of "wack a mole". all that will accomplish is having them go deeper into the web and harder to find.
> 
> ...


I think the overlap is a similar radicalization. In both cases, people get their grievances enhanced and appreciated, and the community has closed discussions, where the least radical voices become "tame" by comparison to the most radical, so anything between those points starts to seem "moderate", though it wouldn't seem so if compared to mainstream thought.


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## EddieCyrax (May 1, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i do not know how applicable it would be for that age group but i am thinking about the girl logging in on her cell phone to face book live and turning, point the phone at him and confronting the man.
> "your on facebook live,,,why are you following me?"
> 
> i would advise all parents for teens to have a cell phone.  they need to be linked into another family members account with GPS tracking app.  real life situations have happened where the girl was abducted and was able to send a text and her GPS location via an app to her boyfriend who contacted police and save her.



Only issue with this approach is.....what if the follower really is out for evil intent???  Is the girl trained or prepared to handle what might happen next??  Again, predators target the weak and set the stage to their advantage where ever possible.....


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## EddieCyrax (May 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> If you read the last two paragraphs of the forum post you pasted into your OP, you'll see reference to "follow a girl until she notices you", or "look for a girl walking by herself and follow her, after a while they notice you".
> 
> The way it reads is that this particular person found the "chase" excited him after the first instance involving direct contact (stopping to quiz them, then following) and he progressed to the following without contact - causing distress by simply being present.
> 
> A girl getting approached and quizzed is a different situation to 'just' being obviously followed around and much easier to identify (but unfortunately, not particularly easier to prepare for or deal with).



Three components of most physical attacks..... Interview, Positioning, Intent...... given the individual stopped her to ask for time then followed her..... 2 strikes in my book......


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## Tez3 (May 1, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i do not think this group really fits the terrorism label at least so far as prevention.




I believe they do fit the description because they have a political agenda. Are they a group, well, IS isn't an organisation as such when it comes to terrorism, they rely in individuals taking action which they will then claim as theirs. It makes it seem like a large organised unit when it's not.
Does Incel radicalise, to a large extent yes, they fee into the personalities of the target group, much the same as the anorexia groups do with girls who Google 'anorexia' and find what they think is support groups but turn out to be cheerleaders for staving yourself to death. those sites are awful.

We do have initiatives here in place to prevent radicalisation, originally Muslim but has been widened to extreme right wing groups such as neo Nazis. perhaps we need to add more groups.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...39598/prevent-duty-departmental-advice-v6.pdf

This is about social media being used to draw young people to go to Syria/Iraq but the principle is the same.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...sed_to_encourage_travel_to_Syria_and_Iraq.pdf

Again about Islamic radicalisation but the principles are exactly the same. Online radicalisation

Sorry for all the reading but this is a must read https://assets.publishing.service.g.../uploads/attachment_data/file/228856/7052.pdf




hoshin1600 said:


> ive really been in deep thought about this entire topic. Thanks Tez for posting about it.



It has been something that if I'm not thinking about directly is always buzzing around the corners of my mind. I have 'been' in anti terrorism all my working life and frankly I've never been so nonplussed by anything as I have been with this.


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## Tez3 (May 1, 2018)

After having this pointed out, totally unaware that Americans had decided to change the meaning of this word...just why?
*this * 

nonplussed Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

nonplussed adjective
uk   /ˌnɒnˈplʌst/ 
     
surprised, confused, and not certain how to react: 

I was completely nonplussed by his reply.


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## JowGaWolf (May 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> While this is an important question, we can't address individual threats this way before they happen. Perhaps (we don't have enough information and knowledge yet) we could find a way to reduce the number of them through societal/social actions, so as I said it's an important question to ask.


We address individual threats all the time.  There are studies that show how youth programs, education, and environment have an effect on the behavior of youth.  It reduces the risks that children will have negative criminal behaviors.  It won't eliminate all of the problems but it will help reduce the risk that a child will turn into an adult stalker.   Sometimes a child just needs to be guided in order to avoid some criminal behaviors.  Mentoring programs work well for this.   Just like the CREEP is telling others that the behavior is ok, there can be a voice on the other side that says the behavior is wrong. 




Tez3 said:


> The thing is, that's not my point, as I explained already, it's that the entertainment media has the writers of films etc make children seem far more grown up and smart than they really are, it's obvious, how else would kids on television solve murders, become pop stars etc. Look at children's television shows and those children bear little resemblance to real children's lives. The television children and families are created for smart jokes, witty comments etc.


  Mentors and Role models.  Everyone needs ones.   If the good people don't fill these roles then the bad people definitely will.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> We address individual threats all the time. There are studies that show how youth programs, education, and environment have an effect on the behavior of youth. It reduces the risks that children will have negative criminal behaviors. It won't eliminate all of the problems but it will help reduce the risk that a child will turn into an adult stalker. Sometimes a child just needs to be guided in order to avoid some criminal behaviors. Mentoring programs work well for this. Just like the CREEP is telling others that the behavior is ok, there can be a voice on the other side that says the behavior is wrong.


That’s what I mean. That’s not addressing individual threats, but proactively reducing the chance of them becoming a threat.


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## JowGaWolf (May 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That’s not addressing individual threats, but proactively reducing the chance of them becoming a threat.


From my experience this is the best way to address individual threats.   You can group threats into categories and address them that way.  For example, stalking threats are not the same as assault threats.  So in my mind an individual threat would be based the category of that threat  and not a specific threat such as How not to be stalked in a movie theater at night, or how not to be stalked at a foot ball game.   For me the stalking behavior is the individual threat.  Some of it you can address and some of it you can't address.  There are stalkers who conceal themselves (voyeurism), stalkers who want you to know they are there, and stalkers who want to stay hidden with the intent of harming you.
*
The first group,* Voyeurism,  is the most difficult to deal with.  These people are good at staying hidden.  I've been a victim of this when I was in my 20's I didn't know I was a victim until someone told me that someone had tons of pictures of me, walking around campus.  

*The second group.*  Stalkers who want to be seen.  Are seeking some kind of Acknowledgement,  sometimes this can be innocent, such as a boy or a girl, or even an adult who tries to be in the the same areas as their "crush" with the hopes that they will be acknowledge or will have a chance to socialize with that person.  People who take pictures of celebs fall into this category as well as "fans."  I've done this as a kid and a teenager but not as an adult.  The comment "stop chasing" often refers to this behavior.  Other times this behavior can be bad and Possessive.  I never had the possessive behavior, thank goodness.   

*The third group *is stalking to do harm.  These people stay hidden and pop out when least expected.  These are the types that follow you home.  

These are 3 stalking behaviors that can be address in a preventive manner.  Some can be addressed in an individual manner, but the problem with that is that you don't know how things will turn out once you are  in that position.   I never confronted my stalker by choice and respectfully and nicely told her that I didn't have any romantic interest in her.  It was a "play by ear" response that took more than 5 minutes to say "I don't like you in a romantic way."  It wasn't a direct message because I wasn't sure how she would respond or if I would put myself in danger for more aggressive behavior.   I can't teach anyone this skill set.  I can only say what to keep in mind.

The second and third group are easier to manage in my opinion.   The second group may present an opportunity to address the behavior at an earlier stage.  Guys have probably been on the receiving end of this effort.  Many of us have heard "I only like you as a friend."  By the way young ladies, This is not an easy let down for guys.  "lol"

The third group can be dealt with by training awareness and avoiding "areas where ambushes may occur."

My friends actually helped me with the "chasing."  In their messed up way, they basically shamed me.   "Stop chasing girls." " You are weak, 'cause girls are supposed to come to you, stop being a itch."  "You aren't a player if you have to chase *ss"   "That girl got you whipped"  "She's pimping you."   

The nicest one was probably from another girl who told me "girls like when you don't chase them."  "Be someone who they can't easily get."  By the way this was the best advice ever.  While I don't think I have the "criminal stalker" in me.  I also didn't have someone telling me that it was Ok to stalk because it was funny.

I've just given separate sub categories that can be addressed and can go into more details to help someone determine what's they might be up against.   With some of this stuff, it's just best not to have that specific moment of "What do you do if someone grabs you from the street, puts you and a car and takes you to a house and rapes you?"  

I look at it like running with a pencil in my hand.   What do you do if the pencil goes in your eye?  What do you do if the pencil goes into your throat?  How about .  Don't run with a pencil in your hand.   If I can do that, then I don't have to worry about the specifics of where that pencil might go.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> From my experience this is the best way to address individual threats.   You can group threats into categories and address them that way.  For example, stalking threats are not the same as assault threats.  So in my mind an individual threat would be based the category of that threat  and not a specific threat such as How not to be stalked in a movie theater at night, or how not to be stalked at a foot ball game.   For me the stalking behavior is the individual threat.  Some of it you can address and some of it you can't address.  There are stalkers who conceal themselves (voyeurism), stalkers who want you to know they are there, and stalkers who want to stay hidden with the intent of harming you.
> *
> The first group,* Voyeurism,  is the most difficult to deal with.  These people are good at staying hidden.  I've been a victim of this when I was in my 20's I didn't know I was a victim until someone told me that someone had tons of pictures of me, walking around campus.
> 
> ...


By individual threat, I meant the individual person. I think we're saying much the same thing.


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## JowGaWolf (May 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> By individual threat, I meant the individual person. I think we're saying much the same thing.


Oh ok.  I was thinking that you were referring to the threat "event" or "behavior" and not the threat as in the person.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 12, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Firstly, a caveat. This is not a gender politics discussion, it's not about whether such groups as '*Incel*' exist, though there is good evidence they do ( the site this came from was 'Incels.me', the poster was  reported but whether any action was taken I don't know) the driver who mowed down people in Canada allegedly 'vowed loyalty' to them/one. At least one social media site has banned groups from posting.  The point is that whether it's a group posting or an individual, _this type of post is all over social media, it's inciting those who have the mindset or inclination to do this. The posts are also shared and don't die even if the originator is banned or even arrested/charged.
> _
> *My point and my only point of posting* this is to help find ways we can help the young girls who have already been affected by this ( I know two in my area, not just 'know of' actually know them personally) or how to warn and instruct girls about what they should do if they find themselves in this situation ( whether or not incited by these posts). The police in our area are aware and I know that the Home Office here have this in their sights and are attempting to 'do something', what they can do I don't know I'm not an IT expert. I have reason to know that this is more than a local problem, not even just a UK problem but most likely a worldwide problem, certainly it's on English speaking sites. I also know there is a lot of worry from parents as well as children about issues like this.
> 
> ...



Teach them how to livestream from their smartphone. And to loudly tell a stalker that they are doing so... if anything happens the creepers face and phisical identity is now being recorded live.

The stalkers prey on anonymity. Give them exposure, immediately! They run like roaches when you turn the lights on.

This is something that I recently taught a small class of 12 to 15 year olds.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 12, 2018)

(might have mis interprited the point)   But i usually am sensitive to people following me and its more of a mindset to constantly scan and check and keep notes on whos around you and if they are doing it right you wont know they are doing it.  Thats the reality of getting tailed for anything the point of being a greyman is it doesn't trigger anyone's suspicion and you need to work in some form of counter follow drill or tactic.     I have the blessing to live in a place where its not too busy most of the time i usually go out, but thinking back on the times i go to different towns im not always alert of if anyone's following me and sometimes not in my town.  I cant actually recall the last time i objectively thought and actually did check for people following me, so long they don't follow me home i don't really care.

*So to clarify *it here as i go on tangents sometimes:  Its a mindset more than anything and if you want complete coverage you have to presume you are being followed every time you leave your house for it to properly work.   Thats just the reality of it, you aren't 100% safe anywhere.      These are just my opinions from what i have looked into how surveillance works anyway.


(Im not a female to make the point clear, not that i think it matters much)


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## Isaiah90 (Jul 17, 2018)

[/QUOTE]
I think we need to stop promoting stranger danger because it's avoiding the real issues. Most sexual predators are people you know like family, friends, co-workers, etc. Once we address those issues, these problems will go away.


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## dvcochran (Jul 17, 2018)

This is a excellent and intriguing post. It makes the mind full of thoughts and options for dealing with the situation.
It is true that most predators are pathological but how/when/why they get to the place where they take it too far is quite a mystery. Accounts like these should be the highest of red flags. I pray the authorities in your area press this to the fullest extent. Not just for this one incident but to put the fear of God in others considering the same. That said, here are a few random thoughts that hopefully provoke other ideas.
I have started this post 3 times because of work so if it sounds disconnected, it is.

If citizens are truly the voice of our nation(s) we all have to be proactive in forcing stiffer penalties triggered at lower levels of action(s). This will make the "toe dippers" think harder about their next action.
Are we willing to say no person regardless of sex should ever walk alone? I certainly am not. However, for many their environment greatly raises the stakes. If that was the girls situation, then why was she willing to walk alone? If it is commonplace to walk alone, situational awareness (there I said it) has to be taught not only as a extra-curricular but as a way of parenting.
Many escalated events such as rape and murder increase through generations in a given area. If that is the area a person lives in it stands to reason that the counters to such events should increase and improve through the same period of time.
This is the most "entitled" generation in recent history as a whole. If people walk around thinking someone else is always going to fix their problems then there is very little help for a person in the above scenario. Teaching independence is a parents responsibility. If you think there is a magic pill you can give the girl you are very wrong. Oddly, I am certain if there are statistics on it I bet there are more reported victims of similar crimes from two parent families.
Anything we tell a victim to do is retro-active. I do not advocate teaching kids to be afraid of walking around, quite the opposite. The generational backslide in parenting has to be stopped. Responsibility has slid and thus has to increase to resolve such large scale problems.
This is  a MA forum. Of course we all think SD is part of the solution. It is, at best, a very small part. Self defense without the mental acumen to know how/when/where/why to apply it is tantamount to useless. That said, it is always easier to ask forgiveness rather than permission.
It is an ever changing world and we all have to learn how to leverage technology. I am certain the bad guys are. How did the perp know the approximate age of the girl without some research?
How, with today's technology do sites like the one mentioned slide through the cracks? Totally agree with the 1st amendment but logically policing of certain key phrases is part of the world we live in because of technology. 
I think I should stop here.


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## Tez3 (Jul 18, 2018)

Isaiah90 said:


>


I think we need to stop promoting stranger danger because it's avoiding the real issues. Most sexual predators are people you know like family, friends, co-workers, etc. Once we address those issues, these problems will go away.[/QUOTE]


Really? I am more than aware of the issues about rapes/abuse etc I have posted about it several times.

*However, this thread is about a very specific problem and a very specific group of people, one of whom has already killed several people. *

I am *not* discussing general self defence or general advice but this one post that was seen worldwide on social media. I suggest you look up the 'Incel' movement and then suggest how this movement will go away if we just ignore it.


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## IvanTheBrick (Jul 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> so how do we protect and warn our children?


What I see here is absolutely asinine behavior from some people who clearly have had some sort of problems or are just too lonely. I don't know how to approach this problem but I know how NOT to approach it. We can't really make any sort of attempt to correct the people behind this behavior, that will just turn into chaos - it will be like teaching bullies not to bully; it's always going to be a problem. But I have never seen or heard of such disgusting behavior. I have a little sister and this photo makes me sick


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## Tez3 (Jul 18, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> What I see here is absolutely asinine behavior from some people who clearly have had some sort of problems or are just too lonely. I don't know how to approach this problem but I know how NOT to approach it. We can't really make any sort of attempt to correct the people behind this behavior, that will just turn into chaos - it will be like teaching bullies not to bully; it's always going to be a problem. But I have never seen or heard of such disgusting behavior. I have a little sister and this photo makes me sick




I don't know what to do or say either which is why I made this thread, to me it's incomprehensible that people would do this. I think when you get a bunch of people together who feel entitled AND need to get revenge on society we have a huge problem. Many experts are looking at the Incel movement as a potential terrorist 'organisation' though organisation isn't perhaps the correct word probably 'movement' described it better, certainly they seem to feel they can take their 'rage' out on the rest of us. 
It seems too that the current political situation in come countries is leading to these people feeling, like racists, that they can emerge from under their rocks and make public their 'grievances' and thoughts. It makes me feel sick too, what I don't want to feel though, is helpless.

What Is the Incel Movement? 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

How involuntary celibates are dangerous in their desires


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## IvanTheBrick (Jul 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know what to do or say either which is why I made this thread, to me it's incomprehensible that people would do this. I think when you get a bunch of people together who feel entitled AND need to get revenge on society we have a huge problem. Many experts are looking at the Incel movement as a potential terrorist 'organisation' though organisation isn't perhaps the correct word probably 'movement' described it better, certainly they seem to feel they can take their 'rage' out on the rest of us.
> It seems too that the current political situation in come countries is leading to these people feeling, like racists, that they can emerge from under their rocks and make public their 'grievances' and thoughts. It makes me feel sick too, what I don't want to feel though, is helpless.
> 
> What Is the Incel Movement? 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com
> ...


I don't even think rage is the main factor. I think it is mostly like some sort of trauma. I mean what kind of person would play these sick games just for attention? Someone who suffered from neglect in my opinion.


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## jobo (Jul 18, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> This is a excellent and intriguing post. It makes the mind full of thoughts and options for dealing with the situation.
> It is true that most predators are pathological but how/when/why they get to the place where they take it too far is quite a mystery. Accounts like these should be the highest of red flags. I pray the authorities in your area press this to the fullest extent. Not just for this one incident but to put the fear of God in others considering the same. That said, here are a few random thoughts that hopefully provoke other ideas.
> I have started this post 3 times because of work so if it sounds disconnected, it is.
> 
> ...


To your last point, it not at all easy, maybe not actually possible to censor  \ restrict site  like this, as the nature of the internet is international /across borders and it's web like nature means there are an infinite number of routes to reach a site. 

The main ince l site is located in Montenegro, where they may or may not be even slightly concerned what incels are doing, saying in the US or the uk,  and as long as it doesn't breach local laws, there is no reason to take action.

Regimes with a,serious need to restricted information net cant shut down the internet, unless they actually turn it in to an intra net


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## dvcochran (Jul 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I think we need to stop promoting stranger danger because it's avoiding the real issues. Most sexual predators are people you know like family, friends, co-workers, etc. Once we address those issues, these problems will go away.




Really? I am more than aware of the issues about rapes/abuse etc I have posted about it several times.

*However, this thread is about a very specific problem and a very specific group people, one of whom has already killed several people. *

I am *not* discussing general self defence or general advice but this one post that was seen worldwide on social media. I suggest you look up the 'Incel' movement and then suggest how this movement will go away if we just ignore it.[/QUOTE]

I followed your suggestion and did more research. The most simple answer I found was from Psychology Today. An  involuntary celibate is a person not quite gripped with the world around them. They have been allowed to create a virtual society or environment that they relate with more than the real world. Of course, we can go on forever about the dangers of such a lifestyle. Again, they have zero situational awareness. Again, there are extreme flaws in the parent profile because they have allowed their child to bond with a virtual world to such an extreme extent. 
You infer not to make the responses so "general" which I do not think mine are. They are answers to global problems which this clearly falls under. This is not an individuals problem. This is a societal problem. A multi generational problem. Mistakes like this have been made in the past. They are harder to see because of the inception of technology at such a steep grade. In regards to mankind, we continue only to learn from our past mistakes when great death and destruction takes place. These kind of innocuous issues are too often swept under the rug because they are regional or do not damage enough people to get attention. Sad. I stand on my answers. If I am missing something in the question, please elaborate.


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## Tez3 (Jul 18, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Really? I am more than aware of the issues about rapes/abuse etc I have posted about it several times.
> 
> *However, this thread is about a very specific problem and a very specific group people, one of whom has already killed several people. *
> 
> I am *not* discussing general self defence or general advice but this one post that was seen worldwide on social media. I suggest you look up the 'Incel' movement and then suggest how this movement will go away if we just ignore it.



I followed your suggestion and did more research. The most simple answer I found was from Psychology Today. An  involuntary celibate is a person not quite gripped with the world around them. They have been allowed to create a virtual society or environment that they relate with more than the real world. Of course, we can go on forever about the dangers of such a lifestyle. Again, they have zero situational awareness. Again, there are extreme flaws in the parent profile because they have allowed their child to bond with a virtual world to such an extreme extent.
You infer not to make the responses so "general" which I do not think mine are. They are answers to global problems which this clearly falls under. This is not an individuals problem. This is a societal problem. A multi generational problem. Mistakes like this have been made in the past. They are harder to see because of the inception of technology at such a steep grade. In regards to mankind, we continue only to learn from our past mistakes when great death and destruction takes place. These kind of innocuous issues are too often swept under the rug because they are regional or do not damage enough people to get attention. Sad. I stand on my answers. If I am missing something in the question, please elaborate.[/QUOTE]


 I'm puzzled, my reply wasn't to you but Isaiah90 who is clearly quoted at the top of my post. I honestly don't know why you thought my post was directed at you.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 18, 2018)

Truth is, I don't let and didn't let my 12 to 14 year olds (boy and girl) go anywhere, at night, by themselves. Heck the almost 20 year old (male) makes me nervous when he tells me the places he goes and he is an adult and I have no control over where he goes, I can only hope he picked something up about awareness...but sometimes I wonder

The subject of the OP, IMO, is a predator, and a would be molester, plane and simple and in NYS it could get him on the wrong side of the law harassing minors like this, especially in the current atmosphere of the MeToo movement. And I hope he does end up on the wrong side of the law so they can put and end to his "fun"

But what to do, you can only educate your children and as a parent, take care of them and protect them like a parent should


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## TSDTexan (Jul 18, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Truth is, I don't let and didn't let my 12 to 14 year olds (boy and girl) go anywhere, at night, by themselves. Heck the almost 20 year old (male) makes me nervous when he tells me the places he goes and he is an adult and I have no control over where he goes, I can only hope he picked something up about awareness...but sometimes I wonder
> 
> The subject of the OP, IMO, is a predator, and a would be molester, plane and simple and in NYS it could get him on the wrong side of the law harassing minors like this, especially in the current atmosphere of the MeToo movement. And I hope he does end up on the wrong side of the law so they can put and end to his "fun"
> 
> But what to do, you can only educate your children and as a parent, take care of them and protect them like a parent should



Education should be subcontracted out to Amer-i-do-te founder Master Ken.


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## dvcochran (Jul 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I followed your suggestion and did more research. The most simple answer I found was from Psychology Today. An  involuntary celibate is a person not quite gripped with the world around them. They have been allowed to create a virtual society or environment that they relate with more than the real world. Of course, we can go on forever about the dangers of such a lifestyle. Again, they have zero situational awareness. Again, there are extreme flaws in the parent profile because they have allowed their child to bond with a virtual world to such an extreme extent.
> You infer not to make the responses so "general" which I do not think mine are. They are answers to global problems which this clearly falls under. This is not an individuals problem. This is a societal problem. A multi generational problem. Mistakes like this have been made in the past. They are harder to see because of the inception of technology at such a steep grade. In regards to mankind, we continue only to learn from our past mistakes when great death and destruction takes place. These kind of innocuous issues are too often swept under the rug because they are regional or do not damage enough people to get attention. Sad. I stand on my answers. If I am missing something in the question, please elaborate.




 I'm puzzled, my reply wasn't to you but Isaiah90 who is clearly quoted at the top of my post. I honestly don't know why you thought my post was directed at you.[/QUOTE]
Huh, I have no clue either. It is a great topic that I wish was more discussed.


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