# Distractions during forms while testing



## Lynne (Aug 26, 2008)

When doing forms, all students endeavor to stay together.  The senior sets the pace.  Usually, we do the first two basic forms together as an entire test group.  Then, the white belts will sit down while the 9th gup yellow belts through red belts perform basic form #3.  And so it progresses with each group performing the forms they have learned.

However, this is not always the case.  Sometimes, we are separated by belt to perform some of the forms.  Still, we try to keep together.  One time, it must have been like trying to herd cats.  One of my classmates, standing next to me left out part of the form and then went into a different form altogether.  The form was Pyung Ahn E Dan and he broke into Chil Sung E Ro Hyung.  It threw me off and I messed up one step.  Fortunately, we did that form more than once.  It was difficult trying to focus on my performance yet try to keep aprised where everyone else was at.  I don't blame my classmate, I've done the same thing in class.  I think everyone has at one time or another.

I don't think it's easy to stay in time with one another during the Pyung Ahn forms, at last Pyung Ahn Sam and Sa Dan.  Or maybe my group is just a bunch of discombobulated cats   What do you do when you find you are going too fast or your classmates are going too slow during testing?  Do you wait for them to catch up?  Do you speed ahead to catch up?  Do you decide to go at your own pace?


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2008)

First off why are you watching what others are doing, there is a rythem to poomsae or forms or patterns that is pretty much universal. If everyone is tought by the same instructor the rythem should all be the same. Never watch other for the rythem find it in your mind and stay with it and the flow of each poomsae, kata, form or pattern will be so much better. Best of skill lynne.


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## Lynne (Aug 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> First off why are you watching what others are doing, there is a rythem to poomsae or forms or patterns that is pretty much universal. If everyone is tought by the same instructor the rythem should all be the same. Never watch other for the rythem find it in your mind and stay with it and the flow of each poomsae, kata, form or pattern will be so much better. Best of skill lynne.


 I am definitely lacking in the rhythm department.  I know the rhythm of the basic forms but am unsure about anything after that.  For instance, in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, there is a low block, a groin punch, followed by a hammerstrike before turning down the "I."  I have seen those moves performed at the same pace as the other moves.  Then, I've seen them sped up.  So, I really and truly don't know what the proper rhythm is.  I suspect it is a slow rhythm and that we aren't supposed to rush that part.  I think people are trying to fit three moves into the rhythm of two like you would in three notes to two counts in music.  Not sure that's right for forms.

Some people are smart enough to hiss when they step.  I'll try to listen to that instead of seeing where my classmates are.  I just know it's important for us to keep together as much as we can.


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## JWLuiza (Aug 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> First off why are you watching what others are doing, there is a rythem to poomsae or forms or patterns that is pretty much universal. If everyone is tought by the same instructor the rythem should all be the same. Never watch other for the rythem find it in your mind and stay with it and the flow of each poomsae, kata, form or pattern will be so much better. Best of skill lynne.



Well, seeing as she's a mid-level gup, staying on pace with someone does require paying some attention.

I also come from a school that does not mandate a rhythym or a timing for the forms. We try to develop personal timings that work with our interpretations of the moves. So we work on individual performances. When we sync up as a group we use it to develop peripheral awareness of those around you, and you will have to adjust your timing to those around you.

I think standardizing the timing and performance of hyung breeds mediocrity.


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## terrylamar (Aug 26, 2008)

Luckily, you are not performing Sanchin Form.  You are beat, kicked and have resistance to your movements while performing the form.  Now, that can really distract you.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 26, 2008)

In my school at least, and from what I can tell, the whole federation, there is a big push for testing candidates to stay on the same rhythm when performing hyung.  Personal opinions aside, the senior ranking member sets the pace, whether it is right or wrong.  

The thing that many people don't seem to get is that it is every else's job to stay with the senior....but it is EQUALLY important that the senior is aware of the juniors.  This may be a conversation to have with the other testing candidates.  If I were you, I would take the initiative, get them all together and tell them flat out....

When you do a hyung together, you are essentially testing as a group.  If one person is off, not only does it throw off their own test, but it will throw off others who may be watching or get confused by their movements...AND it throws off the conhesiveness of the group, which reflects badly on the entire group.  There is only benefit to everyone keeping pace in mind and staying together.  You build off of each other's strengths, you meld into the group mindset, you have people to lean on...and you just look better.  I use the other people's breathing and my peripheral vision and senses to stay on pace with them.  

I have been in a few tests where everyone performed the form _perfectly_, but at different paces and ended at different times, and the entire group had to re do the form.  Usually with a not so nice comment that they looked like white belts.  

Also remember that you are not only being tested on your technical ability and memorization of the form....but specifically on that concentration and ability to be aware of your surroundings.  It reflects very well on you if you can alter your performance to match those around you...it shows adapability, concentration, and the utmost confidence in your knowledge and ability.


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## Lynne (Aug 26, 2008)

terrylamar said:


> Luckily, you are not performing Sanchin Form. You are beat, kicked and have resistance to your movements while performing the form. Now, that can really distract you.


 Heh...it would be a temptation to start sparring.  You'd need lots of control and you'd find out exactly what each move is for.  I have a lot to learn.


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> Well, seeing as she's a mid-level gup, staying on pace with someone does require paying some attention.
> 
> I also come from a school that does not mandate a rhythym or a timing for the forms. We try to develop personal timings that work with our interpretations of the moves. So we work on individual performances. When we sync up as a group we use it to develop peripheral awareness of those around you, and you will have to adjust your timing to those around you.
> 
> I think standardizing the timing and performance of hyung breeds mediocrity.


 
While I understand your point, it is a rythem that is needed to preform the poomsae or kata, form correctly whether that is by the senior on the floor or the instructor teaching it. All of the forms have this rythem and some may go faster or slower but for it to be done properly it need to be withen the rythem of the association interpetation of said poomsae.


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## Lynne (Aug 26, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> In my school at least, and from what I can tell, the whole federation, there is a big push for testing candidates to stay on the same rhythm when performing hyung. Personal opinions aside, the senior ranking member sets the pace, whether it is right or wrong.
> 
> The thing that many people don't seem to get is that it is every else's job to stay with the senior....but it is EQUALLY important that the senior is aware of the juniors. This may be a conversation to have with the other testing candidates. If I were you, I would take the initiative, get them all together and tell them flat out....
> 
> ...


 We usually have some red belts testing and they are as nervous as the rest of us if not more so.  I remember one particular test where the senior red belt was absolutely flying through the forms because he was so nervous.  I felt bad for the white and yellow belts.  As an orange belt I had trouble keeping up and it was difficult to execute full stances.  The white and yellow belts were panicking.  You could see they were terrified.  That was ridiculous.

Unfortunately, some of the green belts are just as bad.  If Master R or one of the black belts assisting doesn't tell us to slow down it only gets worse.  We sometimes go faster and faster.  It _is_ a problem sometimes.  I want to execute a sidekick and chamber back as well.  Chambering back is very important but I swear some people really skip that step.  Or I want to perform a middle knife block with snap instead of slop. Oh yeah - I just realized part of the problem - some people do not prepare by bringing their knees up nor do they chamber properly.  So, the forms can end up going incredibly fast when one skips those steps.  People get nervous and forget to execute their moves fully.

Sometimes, we do flow very well together.  We certainly do on the basic forms (unless some of the juniors don't realize we are to be in time with one another).  At my level, I will pause and wait for others to catch up with me if I've moved too fast and usually vice-versa.  It is rare in the Pyung Ahn forms for us to end and kihap at exactly the same moment.  We are usually close though.  Occasionally, we have to stop as a group to avoid running into another group.  I kind of think that may have been planned to test our control.

As far as telling the rest of the group flat out that we need to be together is not a bad idea.  There is a young man who is scheduled to test with me who kind of does his own thing.  He usually skips steps in a form or does the wrong steps. One time during a spotlight, he kept getting into my space during a form.  I kept moving away from him during choon bee.  He moved with me.  My husband was watching and said the guy was cueing off of my placement.  Master R made a statement during that spotlight.  He said, "If someone gets in your way during a form, continue your form.  It's their own fault if they get hit."  I stopped short of running into him though.  And, of course, it messed up everyone else.  Master R said we looked like a bunch of discombobulated fools that day.

We are all much better than we were at white belts.  We have more eplosiveness, better stances, aren't quite as rigid, better transitions, but we have so much to perfect.  Or rather improve upon.


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## JWLuiza (Aug 27, 2008)

This is also a reason why from chodan and up, you perform hyung solo during testing.


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## Lynne (Aug 27, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> This is also a reason why from chodan and up, you perform hyung solo during testing.


 Then you can show what you know (or don't) versus being in a race.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 27, 2008)

While I can understand doing forms as a group in class, I have trouble understanding doing forms as a group when testing.  I think each individual should be viewed by themselves when testing. Having someone next to you do something wrong and possibly running into you or you running into them while doing a form when testing most likely will disrupt the flow of not just the two of you but all doing that form. 
To do a form correctly you become part of that form and that form becomes a real situation that you are dealing with. 
 As with any real situation you need to be able to eliminate all distraction while at the same time being aware of your surroundings, in this case it means if there is someone next to you need to know what they are doing but be able to focus on your techniques. If they screw up in the form they should expect to be hit in one way or another and you should expect a hit just as you would in a fight but continue to go  on.


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## claireg31 (Aug 27, 2008)

we had a problem with too many of us doing forms at the same time for my dan testing,
i was instructed to do Sipsoo along with the girl stood next to me, the row in front were instructed to do a Pyung Ahn form, i can't remember which one, and the row infront were given Bassia Shio to do, so we all started and guess what happened...

i was 10 or so moves into Sipsoo and i walk straight into the young lad infront of me, i had to stop and was then given a bitching by one of the masters as it looked like i'd forgotten my form and was given a dressing down because as a black belt candidate i should know all my forms inside out, being rather tired and a bit fed up by this point i had to point out to him that i'd walked into the lad infront because there wasn't enough room, really there wasn't.

so i guess i'm agreeing with you, forms should be individually tested if there isn't enough space or enough instructors to grade you properly, makes me far less nervous too if its just me,myself and i!

claire


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## Kacey (Aug 27, 2008)

During class, sometimes we stay together and sometimes we don't - it depends on what's being worked on.  Sometimes what's being worked on is timing - and staying together, with an experienced student setting the pace, can help less-experienced students learn the proper timing and rhythm.

At testings and tournaments, students are encouraged to go the pace that best shows off their own skills rather than staying together.  If a person near you errs, and you follow them over the cliff they've just walked off - then it looks like you don't know the pattern.  The easiest way to learn to keep a pace without following errors is to practice with a partner (or partners) - each person does a different pattern, but with the same timing (so, each person does a move at the same time - except when the pattern timing prohibits, as for fast, slow, continuous, and consecutive motions).  The have each person practice doing the same pattern, but one movement off, like singing a round in music - you have to really pay attention to what you're doing, or you'll fall into the rhythm around you when you shouldn't.


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## Lynne (Aug 28, 2008)

I tested today instead of Saturday. Thursday morning class and testing were combined as a group.  There were only two of us green belts and we made an effort to stay together.  I noticed that the white and orange belts were zooming through the forms.  During the forms beyond the basic three forms, I'm not quite sure who was going too fast, but Master R told us to slow down.  Since I was at the back of the class, when we turned I slowed down which forced everyone else to slow down.

I'm glad some of my fellow "zoomers" weren't testing this morning to be honest.  I am not joking when I say one does his own thing.  Of course the solution to that is for me to have better focus.  I know it's my responsibility.  The focus is coming.  It's coming.

My daughter told me that even though we are supposed to stay together to go at my own pace and show snap with each move if others are rushing the form.  

As far as class goes, it's much like Kacey's.  Sometimes we stay together, sometimes not.  I still need to inquire about the rhythm with Pyung Ahn E Dan (going back up the I with the toro ahnesopakaro).  I'm not sure which moves are done close together.  I thought that the first move stood alone, then you combined the kick, punch, and ahnesopakaro together, then the front kick as a separate move, then the chungal sang soo makee.  But not everyone does it that way.  Of course I want to do it correctly.  Mess that up and I'll fail either my Il Gup or my Cho Dan.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 30, 2008)

The most important thing to remember when doing forms in class is to focus on what you're doing, not what everyone else is doing.

When your juniors are doing sip soo and you're doing jinte (jindo), however...that can be a problem, because there is a point where the line behind you, doing sip soo, will cross your path necessarily. This also happens when you're doing keema hyung (naihanchi) sam dan and the line "behind" (to the left of) you is doing keema hyung cho dan/e dan, among other places...

...just remember that it's a different story from when you're practicing alone. There's nothing wrong with being aware of where everyone else is and adjusting your foot placement accordingly, or scooting yourself an extra step to the right or left if you have to avoid an obstacle. For instance, we have 100-lb hanging training bag hanging on the wall near the middle of the one wall of the dojang, and there are times when you have to move around it if you're on the end of the line. 

About going into the wrong form, I know how that is. The best examples I have are ahead of you, but such it is: 

(1) Well, this one you might experience: The first three moves of pyung ahn cho dan are the same as gicho hyung il bu. And when you've got so many forms in your head and you're just not paying enough attention, it's easy (even as a black belt) to forget that you're supposed to be doing pyung ahn cho dan instead of hyung il bu. Embarrassing. 

(2) Pyung ahn e dan and pyung ahn sam dan both have right-hand spear-hand strikes. It's not uncommon, if you're not paying attention, to forget which form you're doing and continue in pyung ahn sam dan instead of e dan. 

(3) In pyung ahn o dan, there is a move where you outside-inside kick your outstretched left hand, followed by a right-hand elbow strike to that same hand and a simultaneous stomp with the right foot. In palche (bassai) deh, there is the same move (albeit in a different orientation from starting position), but after the elbow you punch down with the right hand. A common thing people do after having practiced palche deh enough is to go from the move in pyung ahn o dan into palche deh...we call it "palche o dan" or something like that. Stuff like that you have to smack yourself afterwards. 

(4) In pyung ahn o dan and palche so, there is a point where you turn, outside-inside hook kick, cross, low hammer fist in horseriding stance, cross and do another technique in the other direction. In jinte (jindo), near the beginning, there's a point where you do the same thing, but instead of a simple backhand slap/head grab or hammerfist, you pivot into front stance and perform a high x block...guess who often has to stop himself from doing the jinte version when doing pyung ahn o dan/palche so? And vice versa? Yeah, this is why it's important to focus on what you're doing, not just go along with the flow. 

Good luck, and may you never perform "palche o dan," "jinte so," or another awkward combination of hyung. Tang Soo!


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## Lynne (Aug 30, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> The most important thing to remember when doing forms in class is to focus on what you're doing, not what everyone else is doing.
> 
> When your juniors are doing sip soo and you're doing jinte (jindo), however...that can be a problem, because there is a point where the line behind you, doing sip soo, will cross your path necessarily. This also happens when you're doing keema hyung (naihanchi) sam dan and the line "behind" (to the left of) you is doing keema hyung cho dan/e dan, among other places...
> 
> ...


   I am sure I will embarrass myself many a time.  There are just too many opportunities to mess up.


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2008)

This reminds me of when I was doing Wado Ryu karate, you have the Pinan katas ( you'd recognise them if you do TSD) and then you have Kushanku which is mostly made up of those Pinan katas. You'd forget that you were doing Kushanku and carry on doing which ever Pinan one you'd done those moves from. In Wado as a class we always did the same katas together but I've seen in both TKD and TSD classes doing different ones at the same time. Confusing to watch never mind to perform!


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## Lynne (Aug 30, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> This reminds me of when I was doing Wado Ryu karate, you have the Pinan katas ( you'd recognise them if you do TSD) and then you have Kushanku which is mostly made up of those Pinan katas. You'd forget that you were doing Kushanku and carry on doing which ever Pinan one you'd done those moves from. In Wado as a class we always did the same katas together but I've seen in both TKD and TSD classes doing different ones at the same time. Confusing to watch never mind to perform!


 I'm noticing that the wrist grips and hand combinations are getting confusing because they are very similar to my lower belt stuff.

It's amazing how much concentration forms take.  You can't just let muscle memory take over.


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2008)

I had problems in changing from Wado to TSD as it's similiar enough to be confusing but different enough that I had to think about things I'd previously done by instinct through doing it for years. The knife hands are in a different position as is the high rise block ( see I have to put it in English as it gets confusing with Japanese and Korean going through my head it ends up as a mishmash of both languages lol) there's fewer stances in TSD though and less kicks. The hyungs are easier and less complicated than the Wado ones so I guess it evens out. I suppose too the fact I'd had to stop doing Wado when the instructor left and the club closed didn't help my mood when learning as it seemed to me TSD was second best. It's not but I do miss Wado dreadfully.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 30, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I'm noticing that the wrist grips and hand combinations are getting confusing because they are very similar to my lower belt stuff.
> 
> It's amazing how much concentration forms take.  You can't just let muscle memory take over.



Actually, that's the quandary...you're supposed to get to the point where you don't have to think; it should all be internalized. If you have to think about what you're doing in a fight, you're going to lose. It's just the other end of the spectrum, where you forget what you're doing and just zone out, that brings trouble.


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