# Sometimes it takes more than one shot.



## arnisador (Sep 29, 2003)

*Gardnerville man described intrusion as "horror movie"*
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/text/2003/sep/17/091710048.html



> A Gardnerville man who shot and killed a convicted killer who forced his way into his home said the late-night intrusion was like a horror movie.
> 
> In newly released police reports, Charles Cryderman told investigators that Walter Hetrick, who spent nearly 20 years in and out of California psychiatric hospitals, continued crawling down a hallway toward his children's bedroom after being shot three times, the Reno Gazette-Journal reported.
> [...]
> ...



(*Emphasis* added.) You know you've got a tough one on your hands when after you shoot him three times with a .357 magnum you still have to beat him with a shotgun...and he's still alive to be taken away by the police.

I saw this on rma, where the comment was: How'd you like to have had to take this guy out with your bare hands?


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## MA-Caver (Sep 29, 2003)

Holy snips! This is where aiming carefully (if possible) and giving the guy a sudden brain hemmorage. 

It's one of the reasons why I try my best to NOT make the big guys in this world mad at me. 

No, I wouldn't even consider trying to take this guy out with my bare hands... I'd try to get me and the family the hell out anyway possible.


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## Elfan (Sep 29, 2003)

Thats amazing.

Bare hands are great because they can pick things up,  a lead pipe would be nice but in this situation a chair, kitchen knife, broom stick etc. could have been used.  In a situation like this controlling your environemnt (like this genetlemen did with his firearm) is critical.


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## arnisador (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MACaver _
> *Holy snips! This is where aiming carefully (if possible) and giving the guy a sudden brain hemmorage. *



Well, he did get a shot in in the upper torso, which is common advice (aim for the center of the body as it's a large and vital target)...and it was the thigh shot that killed him!


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## ArnoldLee (Sep 29, 2003)

The center of mass shots are recommended since they have a good chance of stopping the person cold through several means (trauma, cavitation, damage to internal organs).  But sever that femoral artery and he's dead, he just may not know it at the moment though.


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## Cthulhu (Sep 29, 2003)

Way back when while I was taking a firearms safety course, the instructor showed us a photo of a guy that was shot 31 times by several officers.

It was shot number 31 that finally brought him down.

Cthulhu


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## ArnoldLee (Sep 30, 2003)

How about Jim Cirillo (legendary gunfighting expert, part of the Stakeout unit in the NYPD) shooting a BG several times in the head with a 38.  The BG not only survived but managed to expel one of the slugs by blowing his nose!


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## OULobo (Sep 30, 2003)

Kind of lends creedance to the idea that shooting someone usually only stops them because they are in shock at the idea of being shot. Of cource I don't think I ever want to get so used to being shot that I don't go into shock.


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## OULobo (Sep 30, 2003)

There was a cop here in Cleveland in the late sixties that was know as a police enforcer, and was in a mob shooting where he was attacked Sonny Corleone style. They caught him in his cruiser with his partner and riddled the thing with bullets. His partner died, but he survived with 12 gunshot wounds. My Pops knows the guy and introduced me to him.


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## hardheadjarhead (Oct 31, 2003)

When I see this I wonder if the gun, granted a .357 magnum, was LOADED with .357 magnum rounds.  The guy could have had it loaded with something like .38 hardball.  Sounds silly...but I heard of a guy who tried to kill himself with a .357 loaded with .38 ball.  Put it right to the temple at an upward angle.  He's alive, but handicapped, today.  

"Stopping power"...the perennial argument.  We hear stories of guys taking point blank blasts with shotguns loaded with 00 buck...only to snarl at the shooter.  It happens.

In a situation like this...two to the chest, one right between the running lights.  Repeat as necessary.

Then reload.


SCS


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## Black Bear (Jan 23, 2004)

Of course one bullet doesn't always stop everyone. Bullets aren't magic. They make holes, they cause hydrostatic shock, but they're just metal plugs that move really fast. 

hardheadjarhead has it right, at least according to the conventional wisdom--double tap to centre-of-mass, then one head shot, and again as needed. Everyone says this so I assume it's right. 

Some, like Michael Janich, say that shooting into the pelvic girdle has just as good stopping power, and the downward trajectory will reduce the risk of bystander injury in case of overpenetration. I ran this by a police DT trainer, and he said that though maybe the decreased risk of bystander injury would be a plus, he was sure that CoM was better for stopping. 

Me, I have no idea. I haven't shot a statistically-significant number of people under rigorous experimental conditions.


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## Seig (Jan 23, 2004)

Something to remember, we all talk about how we loose fine motor control in stressfull situations. That is one reason CM is taught.  It's easier to aim and hit CM when under stress.  Unless you practice with a firearm diligently, you are unlikely to shoot accurately when scared.  Something else to consider, if you aim anywhere other than CM and wind up in court, the lawyers are going to eat you alive.  When I taught my wife about shooting, I taught her to aim CM and to keep pullling the trigger until the slide locked back.


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## Black Bear (Jan 24, 2004)

Well in terms of size of the target area, pelvic girdle is just as good as COM. Shooting someone in the bladder sure won't kill him fast, but I think the theory is that if you fracture his pelvic girdle, the trauma will incapacitate him--not to mention the structural damage.


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## Seig (Jan 24, 2004)

Have to disagree, the pelvic girdle is not just as good as Center Mass.  Center Mass constitutes from the navel to the chin, the pelvic girdle just isn't that big.


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## Black Bear (Jan 24, 2004)

Dude, CoM isn't from your navel to your chin. It's a point at the base of your sternum. Now around that, there's a good-sized effective target area, but it's still not from navel to sternum. That's just crazy.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Black Bear _
> *Dude, CoM isn't from your navel to your chin. It's a point at the base of your sternum. Now around that, there's a good-sized effective target area, but it's still not from navel to sternum. That's just crazy. *




DUDE!,

I have to disagree. It is somewhere inside you body.

Also given that I have huge legs, my Center of Mass or CoM as you put it would be lower then others.  This is from a mathematical and or physical stand point.

If you are refereing to the tactics used for shooting a firearm and where to shoot to gain the most effective response to your hit, then you want to target the largest area for the bang for the buck. This would be the navel to the top of the thoat. Seig, took it too the chin, I guess he is a much better shot them I am. Any throat shot would be a good hit in my opinion. 

Besides the higher you hit the more likely you are to hit a vital organ and this will slow the person down much more than having to depend upon them to relize that they have a bullet in their groin area or hip.

Just my opinion.
:asian:


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## arnisador (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Black Bear _
> *Of course one bullet doesn't always stop everyone. Bullets aren't magic. *



Yeah, but he was hit _three times with a .357 magnum_! Unless it wasn't loaded with proper ammunition, as suggested above, I gotta ask--what would Dirty Harry say about this?

Getting hit three times with a .357 magnum should be enough to slow a person down!


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## Black Bear (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *DUDE!,
> 
> I have to disagree. It is somewhere inside you body.
> ...


 DUDE! 

CoM is just something people SAY. It's a funny thing, Azn martial artists talk about the centre (some even say it's their centre of mass) and talk about a point two inches below their navel. I mean, like you said, inside their body, obviously. And then shooters say CoM and everyone "knows" they're talking about the "nine-ring", "through the heart", base of the sternum or whatever. If you balance a guy on a railing or something, I'm pretty sure the Azn martial artists are more correct, but the point is, we're using the term the way that people normally use the term. When someone says "what a lovely sunset,", I don't chide them that it's really an "earth rotation". 

DUDE! 

Where's my car?  

Arnisador, I was probably more responding to the thread title which you must admit is silly.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Black Bear _
> *DUDE!
> 
> CoM is just something people SAY. It's a funny thing, Azn martial artists talk about the centre (some even say it's their centre of mass) and talk about a point two inches below their navel. I mean, like you said, inside their body, obviously. And then shooters say CoM and everyone "knows" they're talking about the "nine-ring", "through the heart", base of the sternum or whatever. If you balance a guy on a railing or something, I'm pretty sure the Azn martial artists are more correct, but the point is, we're using the term the way that people normally use the term. When someone says "what a lovely sunset,", I don't chide them that it's really an "earth rotation".
> ...



Center of Mass is a Physics or Engineering term.

I believe the term used by most shooters is Center Mass. It may sound the same, yet is profoundly different. Center mass could be less than all the extremity masses. Or, in the case of the human body the center mass is the torso.

:asian:


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## Black Bear (Jan 26, 2004)

I see, that makes some sense. I'm not a shooter, I've just shot a bit just to get to know how handguns work, but it's not my hobby or anything. I mean, I'm Canadian! I always hear folks refer to it as "centre of mass", but they may be doing so incorrectly. If indeed the term is centre mass, that seems to suggest "that large piece of matter in the middle of the guy", ie the torso. I buy that.


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## arnisador (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Black Bear _
> *Arnisador, I was probably more responding to the thread title which you must admit is silly. *



Yes, I was being somewhat faceititious with it!

I agree with Mr. Parsons--I think people actually say "center mass" when speaking carefully, and that by that they mean the large central region of the body that is the upper torso.


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## Black Bear (Jan 26, 2004)

Well hey you learn something new every day. And it makes sense. I mean, how could so many apparently intelligent people have been so wrong about where a person's centre-of-mass is located? 

Anyway, to me guns are kind of a weird, foreign thing. People don't wear guns around. I'm sure if I was American and saw them all the time, they would amuse and delight me, I'd learn all about them, get a CCW license, and buy a Springfield Armoury XD and wear it on my hip every day, and shoot it every weekend. But guess what--I'm Canadian and I like our gunless way of life (that sounds crazy to you Americans) and I just learn a bit about them because I have to to be involved in this self-defense business. 

I like guns, but I like absence of guns even more!


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## Seig (Jan 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *DUDE!,
> 
> I have to disagree. It is somewhere inside you body.
> ...


Rich, you are absolutely correct.  As far as my shooting ability, according to the Commonwealth of Virginia, I miss once every year during my annual qualifications.  That makes me fair.


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