# Boxing vs kungfu how effective



## oneenlighten (Mar 16, 2017)

Hi all,

I recently saw this on youtube sparring between a boxer and a kungu practitioner.  



How realistic is this?


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2017)

lets put it this way. That boxer wasnt exactly mike tyson.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 16, 2017)

How realistic?  Well whatever happened and was caught on camera, did happen.  So I guess that event was realistic.  Assuming it was not deliberately faked, then it wasn't just realistic, it was real.

Is that what you are asking?


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> How realistic?  Well whatever happened and was caught on camera, did happen.  So I guess that event was realistic.  Assuming it was not deliberately faked, then it wasn't just realistic, it was real.
> 
> Is that what you are asking?



Was that guy really a boxer?


Hmmmmmmm.........................


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 16, 2017)

Lol.


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## Flatfish (Mar 16, 2017)

Alright, others are starting funning. So: it's not much about style vs style as it is about how you train. The other big factor is personal: some people are good fighters without training, others train for years and might even be good at competitions/sparring within whatever rule set but could not fight their way out of a paper bag in a self defense situation. What are you interested in?


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## CB Jones (Mar 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> lets put it this way. That boxer wasnt exactly mike tyson.



Mike Tyson?  He wasn't even Glass Joe.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 16, 2017)

It's real in the fact that the fight isn't scripted or staged like a fight in a film (or at least doesn't look like it anyway). If you are asking whether a boxer is likely to beat a kungfu practitioner on a "street fight", it basically comes down to how good the boxer's technique is vs how well the kungfu artist can exploit the weaknesses of boxing. Since boxers typically only train for the sport, they aren't very used to defending against low kicks, and you'll notice in the video that the boxer takes multiple kicks to his legs which over time will weaken him by affecting his stability and footwork. Of course on the flip side the boxer should have better punches and head movement since they practice those more.


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## KangTsai (Mar 16, 2017)

The gloveman has no concept of how to counter, or set up, or do anything for that matter.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> lets put it this way. That boxer wasnt exactly mike tyson.


  lol.. the Kung Fu wasn't exactly good either lol.  Stuff like that makes me feel really happy about my training as a kung fu student lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2017)

oneenlighten said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I recently saw this on youtube sparring between a boxer and a kungu practitioner.
> 
> ...


An experienced boxer wouldn't have turned his back to his opponent like that.  An experienced boxer would have taken a slap in exchange for the opportunity to land a hard body shot or headshot.

The real question should probably be are the 2 fighters a good representation of the systems.  I can' only speak of the boxing and tell you that the boxer in the video is not a good representation of boxing.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 16, 2017)

There is a difference between being a boxer and being a guy that is wearing boxing gloves.

That guy looked like he had never even sparred before.

He's no more a boxer then I am a Jedi when I pick up a plastic light sabre.


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## Danny T (Mar 16, 2017)

LOL.
Boxer?? Boxer in this video is no boxer.
Kung Fu practitioner? Well he at least had some training.(appears like long fist to me.)


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## Hanzou (Mar 16, 2017)

Your typical boxer isn't going turtle up into a little ball like a child when you advance on them. They're going to either flank to either side to counter you, go for a clinch, or punch you dead in your face.

Additionally, I caught "the boxer" lifting his leg up multiple times as if he was going for some sort of side kick as the monk advanced on him. Boxers don't do that, and I don't think even kick boxers do that.

So yeah, the guy with gloves on his hands isn't a boxer. I wish Kung fu practitioners would fight against real representatives from other styles instead of consistently doing nonsense like this.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2017)

Danny T said:


> LOL.
> Boxer?? Boxer in this video is no boxer.
> Kung Fu practitioner? Well he at least had some training.(appears like long fist to me.)


I do long fist and my long fist doesn't look like that when I spar.  My assumption is that if we knew what system of Kung Fu he's actually we will probably come to the conclusion that he's not a good representation of that system either.

Long fist systems are usually very well rooted and not hoping up for the sake of trying to hit someone in the head.


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## Buka (Mar 17, 2017)

Welcome to MartialTalk, oneenlighten.

That is not Kung Fu. That is not boxing. That is not sparring. (Honest)


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 17, 2017)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, oneenlighten.
> 
> That is not Kung Fu. That is not boxing. That is not sparring. (Honest)



QFT

Exactly

Also, just to clarify "Kung Fu" is a category that all Chinese martial arts is categorized under. Kung Fu is not a style


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> lets put it this way. That boxer wasnt exactly mike tyson.


Well, most boxers wouldn't be any good against Tyson, either.

That said, I'm not sure that guy was a boxer. There was some movement there that didn't look like it was habitual for someone doing Western boxing.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Well, most boxers wouldn't be any good against Tyson, either.
> 
> That said, I'm not sure that guy was a boxer. There was some movement there that didn't look like it was habitual for someone doing Western boxing.


He could be a boxer.  He's just a bad representative of a boxer.  The question for must of us will always be are we a good representation of what we do.  Sometimes we are good at the training side of things and bad at the competitive side of things.  This guy lacked a lot of basics and I think the other guy that is some kind of martial artist lack the basics that one would expect to see of a beginner.   I wouldn't use either one of those guys to represent either Kung Fu and Boxing.  I would never say to someone "Hey come do kung fu or boxing.  This is what it looks like." Then show that video


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> He could be a boxer.  He's just a bad representative of a boxer.  The question for must of us will always be are we a good representation of what we do.  Sometimes we are good at the training side of things and bad at the competitive side of things.  This guy lacked a lot of basics and I think the other guy that is some kind of martial artist lack the basics that one would expect to see of a beginner.   I wouldn't use either one of those guys to represent either Kung Fu and Boxing.  I would never say to someone "Hey come do kung fu or boxing.  This is what it looks like." Then show that video


I'll say he's definitely not only a boxer. There's movement that looks trained (though perhaps early in training), but doesn't appear to be from boxing. I didn't see anything that looked like a boxer with a few months of training and sparring. Some of that may have been an attempt to adjust to the opponent, but I'd have expected planned adjustments to fall apart when he started getting hit, and the boxing to come out. I saw no boxing - no taking advantage of the elbows being up. No driving in. No covering to get past the flurry of high strikes. I don't think he has any significant training in Western boxing.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'll say he's definitely not only a boxer. There's movement that looks trained (though perhaps early in training), but doesn't appear to be from boxing. I didn't see anything that looked like a boxer with a few months of training and sparring. Some of that may have been an attempt to adjust to the opponent, but I'd have expected planned adjustments to fall apart when he started getting hit, and the boxing to come out. I saw no boxing - no taking advantage of the elbows being up. No driving in. No covering to get past the flurry of high strikes. I don't think he has any significant training in Western boxing.


Some people are bad at boxing some people are bad at kung fu.  No one like getting hit in the face, but some are willing to accept while other's will risk everything else to protect their face.
These guys are boxers just not a good representation of one.  A person can be a boxer and be bad at it.   The only thing that I don't like about the OP's videos is that a school either created it or is using it to mislead people about the quality of their schools training.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some people are bad at boxing some people are bad at kung fu.  No one like getting hit in the face, but some are willing to accept while other's will risk everything else to protect their face.
> These guys are boxers just not a good representation of one.  A person can be a boxer and be bad at it.   The only thing that I don't like about the OP's videos is that a school either created it or is using it to mislead people about the quality of their schools training.



Do you have a link for the Shadow's instructional video?  

That was awesome.  The ropes are getting in the way.  Lol


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some people are bad at boxing some people are bad at kung fu.  No one like getting hit in the face, but some are willing to accept while other's will risk everything else to protect their face.
> These guys are boxers just not a good representation of one.  A person can be a boxer and be bad at it.   The only thing that I don't like about the OP's videos is that a school either created it or is using it to mislead people about the quality of their schools training.



And this is the problem with style vs style videos. It's far too easy for the losing side to say "well if they faced a much better [insert losing style here] practitioner, the result would have been different. As such, the only thing you can ever say in such a case is it's not the style that wins, but the fighter. That said, what we can do is look at each style and hypothesise about what would happen if you took an absolute Master (i.e. one that cannot improve anymore) in 2 arts and faced them against each other. In the case of Boxing vs Kungfu, what it comes down to is a contest between a very specialised fighter (the boxer) vs a more well-rounded fighter (the Kungfu Artist). As I said previously, assuming the boxer has done no cross-training and trains purely for competition against other boxers, they will have a glaring weakness in that they aren't practiced at blocking kicks and other low attacks. On the flip-side, their punches will probably be a lot more focused and stronger than the Kungfu Artist. So, assuming both are at an equivalent skill level, it will come down to whether the Boxer can overpower the Kungfu artist before the artist can take out the Boxer's legs.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> And this is the problem with style vs style videos. It's far too easy for the losing side to say "well if they faced a much better [insert losing style here] practitioner, the result would have been different. As such, the only thing you can ever say in such a case is it's not the style that wins, but the fighter. That said, what we can do is look at each style and hypothesise about what would happen if you took an absolute Master (i.e. one that cannot improve anymore) in 2 arts and faced them against each other. In the case of Boxing vs Kungfu, what it comes down to is a contest between a very specialised fighter (the boxer) vs a more well-rounded fighter (the Kungfu Artist). As I said previously, assuming the boxer has done no cross-training and trains purely for competition against other boxers, they will have a glaring weakness in that they aren't practiced at blocking kicks and other low attacks. On the flip-side, their punches will probably be a lot more focused and stronger than the Kungfu Artist. So, assuming both are at an equivalent skill level, it will come down to whether the Boxer can overpower the Kungfu artist before the artist can take out the Boxer's legs.


I'd add just one component - overall fitness. If one of these hypothetical masters is 28 and highly fit, while the other is 58 and reasonably fit, the fight will probably go to the more fit one (again, assuming each has mastered his training and practiced with well-resisting partners).


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd add just one component - overall fitness. If one of these hypothetical masters is 28 and highly fit, while the other is 58 and reasonably fit, the fight will probably go to the more fit one (again, assuming each has mastered his training and practiced with well-resisting partners).



Agreed, and the longer the fight goes on, the more it benefits the person with greater fitness. You could have the best technique in the world, but if you become exhausted half-way through the fight, you will lose every time.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> And this is the problem with style vs style videos. It's far too easy for the losing side to say "well if they faced a much better [insert losing style here] practitioner, the result would have been different. As such, the only thing you can ever say in such a case is it's not the style that wins, but the fighter. That said, what we can do is look at each style and hypothesise about what would happen if you took an absolute Master (i.e. one that cannot improve anymore) in 2 arts and faced them against each other. In the case of Boxing vs Kungfu, what it comes down to is a contest between a very specialised fighter (the boxer) vs a more well-rounded fighter (the Kungfu Artist). As I said previously, assuming the boxer has done no cross-training and trains purely for competition against other boxers, they will have a glaring weakness in that they aren't practiced at blocking kicks and other low attacks. *On the flip-side, their punches will probably be a lot more focused and stronger than the Kungfu Artist.* So, assuming both are at an equivalent skill level, it will come down to whether the Boxer can overpower the Kungfu artist before the artist can take out the Boxer's legs.


Regarding the bolded section, I would not make that assumption.  I do not believe boxers use the best technique possible.

And if we are talking about two absolute masters, well then it's like an irresistible force meeting an immoveable object.  It just might trigger the end of the universe.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Regarding the bolded section, I would not make that assumption.  I do not believe boxers use the best technique possible.
> 
> And if we are talking about two absolute masters, well then it's like an irresistible force meeting an immoveable object.  It just might trigger the end of the universe.



I say that purely because they practice their punches more than anything else. Let's say both our hypothetical Masters practice 5 hours a day. The Kungfu Master is going to split that training between leg techniques and hand techniques, whereas the Boxer is going to dedicate more time to their punches, because they don't practice any leg or open-hand techniques. Since the Boxer practices punches more than the Kungfu Master, it's safe to assume that the Boxer's punches are going to be better than the Kungfu Master's. 

You are argue whether the Boxing techniques are more effective than the Kungfu techniques or not, but you can't deny that the Boxer will be more trained in their punches than the Kungfu Master, simply from the amount of time they dedicate to those few techniques.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I say that purely because they practice their punches more than anything else. Let's say both our hypothetical Masters practice 5 hours a day. The Kungfu Master is going to split that training between leg techniques and hand techniques, whereas the Boxer is going to dedicate more time to their punches, because they don't practice any leg or open-hand techniques. Since the Boxer practices punches more than the Kungfu Master, it's safe to assume that the Boxer's punches are going to be better than the Kungfu Master's.
> 
> You are argue whether the Boxing techniques are more effective than the Kungfu techniques or not, but you can't deny that the Boxer will be more trained in their punches than the Kungfu Master, simply from the amount of time they dedicate to those few techniques.


Again, I would not make such an assumption.  

Boxers can be very good at what they do.  They train to punch under a set of rules, and with a type of glove.  That has an effect on how they punch.  I believe it results in not the best technique or method for punching.  Nevertheless, they can be very effective with it, and better fitness and raw strength and intensity of training can trump better technique if the difference is significant.  

Keep in mind, you don't need to be more powerful than the other guy, in order to win.  You just need to be powerful enough to be effective, and good enough to land more shots than you take, on average, and you land your effective shots first.

So who might be better at punching or more powerful at punching, doesn't really mean much in a debate over a matchup between a boxer and a Kung fu guy.  As long as they both are good enough and powerful enough to be effective, then either could be the victor.  But, as long as you mentioned it, I am pointing out that I would not automatically assume the boxer is better, or more powerful, at his punches over the Kung fu guy.  I do not believe the boxing method is the best punching method.  And, since we are talking about a couple of hypothetical perfect masters, well then the better method is better.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Again, I would not make such an assumption.
> 
> Boxers can be very good at what they do.  They train to punch under a set of rules, and with a type of glove.  That has an effect on how they punch.  I believe it results in not the best technique or method for punching.  Nevertheless, they can be very effective with it, and better fitness and raw strength and intensity of training can trump better technique if the difference is significant.
> 
> ...



I see your point, and I'll be honest it never occurred to me that the punches the Boxers use are specific to the sport and therefore might not be as effective in a fight against a non-boxer. I guess it shows my limited knowledge of Boxing as a sport and Martial Art.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I see your point, and I'll be honest it never occurred to me that the punches the Boxers use are specific to the sport and therefore might not be as effective in a fight against a non-boxer. I guess it shows my limited knowledge of Boxing as a sport and Martial Art.


To be honest, I don't know that much about boxing either, but I do know that wearing a boxing glove and wraps puts the hand in a weird shape that is not an effective fist outside of the glove.  If you punch bare-fisted with that shape, you will have a lot of problems.  A boxer would need to train without gloves and wraps and adapt the shape of his fist into something appropriate to a punch without gloves, and develop a different kind of conditioning to prevent the unprotected and unsupported wrists and fists from injury.

I see boxers do a shadow-box thing, and their fist is half open with the thumb sticking up.  That is the shape of a wrapped fist wearing a glove.  Punch like that without the supporting wraps and the protective glove, and the hand will be injured.

However, there are body mechanics that differ as well.  I think boxers actually do a pretty effective job at harnessing power from the feet on up, and making it a full-body connection power. But I don't think they do the best job of it.

Nevertheless, especially with the fitness and intensity of training that a competitive boxer has, they can be very effective punchers.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

Nothing wrong with a boxers fist.  They don't punch with that partially open hand in a real fight.

And I think a straight right hand is probably a boxers best punch but I would guess just about every art has a version of it.

Boxers do do a great job of starting the punch at their feet and getting all their power and weight behind it.

Also boxers learn how to roll and slip punches and help minimize their opponents power.  But will probably struggle with kicks and takedowns.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Nothing wrong with a boxers fist.  They don't punch with that partially open hand in a real fight.
> 
> And I think a straight right hand is probably a boxers best punch but I would guess just about every art has a version of it.
> 
> ...


Because boxers fight in a box, and at a specific range to be squared off with each other, the power generation is different from longer distance stuff, although Mohammad Ali was famous for his long distance back knuckles,


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Nothing wrong with a boxers fist.  They don't punch with that partially open hand in a real fight.
> 
> And I think a straight right hand is probably a boxers best punch but I would guess just about every art has a version of it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, they are effective at what they do.  That is true.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Again, I would not make such an assumption.
> 
> Boxers can be very good at what they do.  They train to punch under a set of rules, and with a type of glove.  That has an effect on how they punch.  I believe it results in not the best technique or method for punching.  Nevertheless, they can be very effective with it, and better fitness and raw strength and intensity of training can trump better technique if the difference is significant.
> 
> ...



There is nothing to base the effectiveness of a kung fu guys punching. There is a record of the effectiveness of a boxers punching.

If we are going to throw around good at what they do.  Then we would need to look at what people actually do.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Nothing wrong with a boxers fist.  They don't punch with that partially open hand in a real fight.
> 
> And I think a straight right hand is probably a boxers best punch but I would guess just about every art has a version of it.
> 
> ...


I know a couple of boxers who had to change their punching style. None of them were high-level, so I don't know how it changes at those levels, but the targets they aimed for and the way they formed their fists were done in ways that worked in the ring, but were either ineffective, or harmful to their own hand without gloves.

Again, this is based on my limited knowledge of about 5-6 boxers who were not competing at a particularly high level, so this could very easily not be representative of boxers in general.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

If boxers fists aren't optimal for punching without a glove wouldn't kickboxers and Muay Thai guys have the same problem?  Since they all use basically the same kind of glove?

I mean I guess some might not know how to make a fist but I don't see that being that common.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> If boxers fists aren't optimal for punching without a glove wouldn't kickboxers and Muay Thai guys have the same problem?  Since they all use basically the same kind of glove?
> 
> I mean I guess some might not know how to make a fist but I don't see that being that common.


The only disadvantage that I can think of is the lack of conditioning of the fist.  If a person is always punching with gloves on with wrist wraps, then the elements that are required to keep the fist strong and to condition the knuckles and hand may not exist.   I punch and spar without wrist wraps so I have to count on the muscles, tendons, and ligaments to hold everything together. I count on an increase in bone density in my knuckles to help deal with the impact.  Just recently I had a chance to spar with some kickboxing gloves.  I felt strange to see the other guys with their wrist wraps and me with just my hand in the glove without wraps.


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## CB Jones (Mar 18, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only disadvantage that I can think of is the lack of conditioning of the fist.  If a person is always punching with gloves on with wrist wraps, then the elements that are required to keep the fist strong and to condition the knuckles and hand may not exist.   I punch and spar without wrist wraps so I have to count on the muscles, tendons, and ligaments to hold everything together. I count on an increase in bone density in my knuckles to help deal with the impact.  Just recently I had a chance to spar with some kickboxing gloves.  I felt strange to see the other guys with their wrist wraps and me with just my hand in the glove without wraps.



I would agree with that also boxers don't stress punching with the knuckles of the index and middle fingers either.

Breaking of the ring finger bone or pinky finger bone is common enough that it is called a Boxer's fracture.



True story: When is was 14 I had a Boxers fracure of my right hand....my dad thought it was just a "jammed knuckle" and spent about 10 minutes pulling on it and flexing it trying to "crack" my knuckle.  Ouch.

Next day mom to me to a doctor and we found out the bone was broke. 

 It didn't heal straight and even today it is curved slightly.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 18, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I would agree with that also boxers don't stress punching with the knuckles of the index and middle fingers either.
> 
> Breaking of the ring finger bone or pinky finger bone is common enough that it is called a Boxer's fracture.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what it is. Boxers dont have to worry about their punching alignment because of the extra protection they have towards the structure of their punch, and yet they still end up with boxer's fractures. Now imagine them punching in the same way without the protection of the gloves or, more importantly IMO, the wrist wrapping.


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## drop bear (Mar 18, 2017)

Boxers do have to worry about punching a moving guy in the head as hard as they can for an extended period of time. 

It is a lot more damaging to the hands than what kung fu guys do with their hands.


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## drop bear (Mar 18, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> If boxers fists aren't optimal for punching without a glove wouldn't kickboxers and Muay Thai guys have the same problem?  Since they all use basically the same kind of glove?
> 
> I mean I guess some might not know how to make a fist but I don't see that being that common.



And we have bare knuckle boxing.  And punching in 5 ounce gloves as well.


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