# Power vs Speed are they combined



## Dave Simmons (Mar 9, 2002)

I have witnessed many seminars that incorporate speed and power in various technique applications. How do you translate the difference between the two? Is it based strictly on your physical size and emotional make up? or strictly a matter of response to the aggressor?

Personally I teach my students for full commitment. Up close and personal  a lot of emphasis on survival mentality. In short either commit or run...What is your experience or response training?

You have the power,

Dave Simmons
www.mnkenpo.com:D


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 9, 2002)

You don't need speed to have power, you don't need power to have speed, but they do work nice when employed together.  The hardest part is finding the proper balance between speed and power.


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## arnisador (Mar 9, 2002)

It oversimplifies things slightly, but the message I try to leave students with is *speed is power*. This may not be so if you are imagining shoving someone out of the way but for most techniques, most of the time, speed will give you more impact than strength, I believe.


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## Zoran (Mar 9, 2002)

If I remember my Physics correctly. Power = Mass x (Speed x Speed). Speed is actually velocity. If you look at the formula, you would think that speed is more important. In reality, you can only increase the velocity of a straight punch, for example, so much. Now by increasing the torque of your body, shifting your weight forward and being able to time all of this to maximize all you mass bihind your punch at the moment of impact, is what will give you power. My instructor use to say that a 100 mph marshmellow won't do much damage, but a 40 mph bus will.

When teaching or training, we need to focus on using proper form and body movement. Speed is something that comes with time.

Anyway, I was rambling. Mr. Simmons question has more to do with the mental/physical translation. Here is a link that you may find interesting, it's about the big picture. You may want to post something there as Sandor Urban, who posted it, wants to write an article on that subject. He could use the input.


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## Battousai (Mar 9, 2002)

I agree totally with arnisador.
 From what I know of physics, Force = Mass * Acceleration. Newton's 2nd Law, probabilty what Zoran was talking about. 
 The way I look at it is Mass is generally a constant. The general amount of mass a person has usually doen't fluxuate a whole lot. Increasing the amount of Mass transfered into the strike is a matter of perfecting technique, like what Zoran said, lots of practise. But Acceleration in particular, I think, is something we can grow in more then we can in Mass Transfer. Perfecting technique for good Mass Transfer is mostly done slowly, and then sped up. The challenge is keeping the good form while speeding up. 

Beyond that, basicly trying to move faster and faster, and developing better and more controlled/complex neural reactions, is what I think is cool. The fastest neuron's can transmit electrical signals from the brain to the body at 200 mph, this has to do mostly with the Mylin Sheath coating the neuron's axon and Parkenson's disease (if I'm remembering the correct disorder involving the lack of Mylin). Which means that our brains are capable of acting much faster then our bodies. I think the focus of speed vs. power rests within trying to train our muscles to react faster, to move faster and faster.  

 Of course, good technique loan's itself to speed, such that the goal of becoming faster cannot be separated from the task of perfecting greater and greater form. 
 I find that whenever I gain speed, I have to go back and relearn correct form and then climb to the next level of combining the two, before going on and trying to develop even more speed.


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## Rainman (Mar 9, 2002)

Physical speed is a by product of mental speed and economy of motion and a host of "others".  To have power it is not entirely necessary to have great speed.  For power and speed to matter the target has to be struck.


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## Robbo (Mar 10, 2002)

> Physical speed is a by product of mental speed and economy of motion and a host of "others". To have power it is not entirely necessary to have great speed. For power and speed to matter the target has to be struck.



I think if we are going to get into this aspect of the question it is only fair to mention timing. If anybody has done broken rythym timing drills you know that speed is not as important as knowing when to hit or catching an opponent in a bad position. As we get older the general trend is to become slower or maintain the level of speed we have. You usually don't get faster as you get older. So our only defense is to get sneaky and 'time' our hits so that it doesn't become a game of who is fastest.

Rob


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## Dave Simmons (Mar 10, 2002)

Rob,

Excellent point! Actually as a person gets older they become battle hardened. I train more on my mental attitude these day with a growing appreciation of the"timing" of responses. Of course, to go along with that is short cuts to deminish the overall time to completion element. This means no wasted movement.


Regards,

Dave Simmons:tank:


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## Robbo (Mar 10, 2002)

Elongating your circles and rounding off the corners of your squares


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## Cthulhu (Mar 10, 2002)

I've always looked at it like this:

Power (in martial arts) is a combination of speed and strength.  You can use nothing but strength in a technique, but it won't have power because there is no momentum/speed/'zip' to the technique.  You can do a technique with pure speed, but it will lack power due to lack of any 'oomph' behind the attack.  Combining the two is where you get what I consider 'power'.

Take a basic punch.  Nothing fancy...no gyaku zukis or WC straight punches...just a plain ol' punch.  With no speed, it's just a push.  The hand may be moving out with a lot of strength, and over time you may be able to move things with it, but it's strength applied over a long period of time.  Just a push.  Strong, but no penatration due to no speed.

A punch with no strength is just a fast tap.  No strength from muscular contraction and body mechanics at the correct moment makes the technique lack any power.  The length of time has shortened, but you're not applying any strength, so it isn't a punch with power.

A punch with both strength and speed has a physical force being exerted in a short burst of time, yielding penetration and power.  How many people do you know who have no speed in their techniques?  Are you particularly worried about their punches?  How many people do you know who are very strong, physically, but can't move particularly fast?  Are you worried about their punches?

Of course, underlying all this is proper technique, which can only be gained through proper instruction followed by diligent practice...which will give you strength and speed anyway.

Cthulhu


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## Chiduce (Mar 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Battousai _
> 
> *I agree totally with arnisador.
> From what I know of physics, Force = Mass * Acceleration. Newton's 2nd Law, probabilty what Zoran was talking about.
> ...


 I agree to a point about the simple physics; yet i can see that there is another factor being left out! I see also that the physics of f=ma does not make m a constant and concerns only  linearity in regards to dynamic skin friction. Thus, the unmentioned force of gravity is the key here. Acceleration due to gravity is 32 ft. per second squared and 9.8 meters per second! With this understanding mass can be any number and speed is considered constant. A strike or punch is gradually being forced downward due to gravity acting on it. The execution of any chambered punch or strike will employ molecuar friction against it when directed in a stright line! Not to say, that the turning force which has to be applied to the reverse punch/strike. So, in a straight line there are more factors involved against the punch/strike than with this action taking place. Since all objects fall faster due to gravitational pull; speed is constant. yet molecular friction can become inconsistent depending on the constant mass angle of entry! Thus, friction can be somewhat defied. Therefore, to increase force of impact upon a mass with a mass; slight arching motions should be executed to let gravity take the strike to it's target. Gravity rides, produce the fastest speeds of any object mass consistantly and produce the greatest amount of force due to impact! So, strikes and punches riding gravity will produce the greatest amount of force upon impact! This is how a penny and a hammer can be dropped from the same height on a person and both fatally damage the individual on impact!  Thus, mass is not considered, speed is constant, acceleration is constant, yet force (power) increases due to gravitational pull. Therefore, to increase power; slightly arch the strike and let gravity ride it to impact! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Battousai (Mar 11, 2002)

Nice Chiduce!

 I disagree on some things:



> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *Thus, the unmentioned force of gravity is the key here. Acceleration due to gravity is 32 ft. per second squared and 9.8 meters per second! With this understanding mass can be any number and speed is considered constant.  *




 How is speed considered constant? I don't think mass can be any number, it will be virtually constant for the individual body, gravitation will remain constant (ignoring elevation).




> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *The execution of any chambered punch or strike will employ molecuar friction against it when directed in a stright line! *



 The friction due to wind resistance is what we are talking about here, ignoring any high winds during the strike, the force applyed by the air resistance will be there regardless of the trajectory of the strike, a straight line strike would have the same resistance as a curved strike. And then as the velocity of the strike increases the opposite friction force will increase (exponentially?) until Terminal Velocity is reached LOL!



> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> * Gravity rides, produce the fastest speeds of any object mass consistantly and produce the greatest amount of force due to impact! *



 Great idea! I don't think it will not produce all that much force though. The maximum amount of additional force gravity could add to the strike would be by increasing the acceleration of the strike by 9.8 m/s (providing Terminal Velocity had not yet been reached).  Now we estimate that the duration of the strike (the time frame between when the strike is "launched" to impact) to be a split second (I would estimate at most a fourth of a second), that would mean that for the slowest strike (slow so that gravity has more time to act upon it), would only produce an additional ( (9.8 m/s) / ( 4 ) ) = 2.45 meters per second of acceleration, which is 5.48 miles per hour. If the strike is faster, like say one eighth of a second, then the additional acceleration would be  ( (9.8 m/s) / (8) ) = 1.225 meters per second, which is 2.74 miles per hour. The faster the strike, the smaller the amount of time that gravity has to work on it (like a skydiver, it takes some time to get falling as fast as possible). Thus I believe that acceleration due to the force of gravity added to the strike would be almost inconsequential, and would become increasingly weaker the faster the strike became. 

 And looking at uppercuts and such upward striking techniques this makes sense, they seem to hurt plenty. It this regard though is where the force of gravity will have the most negative acceleration upon the strike. 

 gravitational rides are a very cool idea though, and who knows, maybe another 2 miles per hour added to the speed of a strike would be enough to add fractures to a break.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 11, 2002)

Hate to say it guys, but all this talk of air resistance and gravity is pretty pointless when we're talking about punches. We're not moving fast enough, not large enough, and not high enough to worry about such considerations.  The effect of those forces would almost be immeasurable when applied to martial arts techniques.

Now, if you're jumping out of an airplane with baggy clothes chasing another skydiver wearing a 50kg weight vest, then those forces just may come into play 

Cthulhu

PS - the force due to gravity is generally given as an average value of 9.8 m/s^2.  That 'seconds squared' is fairly important.


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## Battousai (Mar 11, 2002)

Yep, I agree.


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## Chiduce (Mar 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Battousai _
> 
> *Nice Chiduce!
> 
> ...


 Try this simple test; do as many reverse punches as you can in 10 seconds. Then gravity ride the punches using a straight hammer! The hammers will 1.5 times as fast as the reverse punches within this 10 second period! Try the same using a straight hammer or blast! The gravity ride will be about the asme at 1.5 times or better faster!  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Dave Simmons (Mar 11, 2002)

Zoran hit on the head. More or less as a person ages certain dynamics change for the the practitioners as one grows older!

The point I wanted to explore is the reaction time to power expanded indicates speed overall. Plus the knowledge of "cutting down" wasted movement between strikes is the essence of Kenpo. If you will minimize reaction time based on targets revealed. What do you say, please spare us the theory,  I want the practice...

Let's get down to the warrior level!

Dave Simmons


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## Nate_Hoopes (Mar 11, 2002)

I think you need both and im just going to go based on a physics point of view, Mass x Speed = force(or power) now the mass part comes in with the tourquing of the body the twisting of the hips how much of your body you put behnd the punch is the mass, now assume a 200 pound man can place 75% of his mass into a punch; moving at 1mph that will equal roughly 150 punds of force that could do nothing more than push someone, now that same 75% moving at 100mph rougly equals 1000 pounds of force, now not only does the force weigh more (extra speed does equal added mass, that whole e=MC2 thing) but that 1000 pounds is slamminf into you at 100 mph instead of the 150 pounds hitting you at one mile per hour, you need weight and speed, light string cant do much damage at 100 mph because it weighs too little to begin with, likewise a 100 pound steel pipe cant hurt someone too much moving at 1 mph, its all physics theres has to be a good way to get the best of everything.


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## GouRonin (Mar 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dave Simmons _
> *The point I wanted to explore is the reaction *



Reaction time is something I think that many kenpoists need to look at and I don't believe that half of these guys have the "read time" to be doing these techniques at the speed they are doing them. Slow down, make the shots count is what i say.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 11, 2002)

Have all of you considered the elements of Speed?

Perceptual * Mental * Physical

A response is accomplished with a combination of the 3 elements.  One must perceive then process mentally which moves the physical.

:asian:


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## Big Guy (Mar 11, 2002)

Speed is the Illusion of proper motion, If you are move the way you should it looks like you are going fast.:jediduel:


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## Chiduce (Mar 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dave Simmons _
> 
> *Zoran hit on the head. More or less as a person ages certain dynamics change for the the practitioners as one grows older!
> 
> ...


 So, from what i'am hearing; the essense of all kenpo is cutting down wasted movement between strikes? Or are you saying that this is the essence of american kenpo? I think that the physics behind the punches and strike can be described in several different ways and also tested! The simple test that i suggested; i teach to my class several times per month to improve there speed striking skills. The students are able to see there improvements and answer their own questions about striking combinations and variations of. This concept is not new anyway. The shaolin monks used this simple knowledge of the gravity ride to use locomotive force in striking with precision and speed to different areas of the upper body using various fist strike combinations! This is one of the basic elements of gong fu mastery of striking  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Dave Simmons (Mar 12, 2002)

The essence for me is efficient logical strikes to resolve any situation. The factor I have noticed as one gets older is being less concerned with wasted motion. I am not referring to students learning technique in class. What I am referring to is the time relation between strikes and full integration of body dynamics i.e. utilizing pivots with shoulder and hip alignment. Mostly seen in experienced practitioners. Just my opinion!

Regards,

Dave Simmons


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## Chiduce (Mar 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dave Simmons _
> 
> *The essence for me is efficient logical strikes to resolve any situation. The factor I have noticed as one gets older is being less concerned with wasted motion. I am not referring to students learning technique in class. What I am referring to is the time relation between strikes and full integration of body dynamics i.e. utilizing pivots with shoulder and hip alignment. Mostly seen in experienced practitioners. Just my opinion!
> 
> ...


 Thanks! I see your point here! Heck, i'am no spring chicken myself! At 45 i'am healthy and fit yet, i can jump and kick leap and have no major problems, other than soreness and femur flexon tightness at times! But my splits look good and relaxed. Sincerely, in Humility; Chiduce!


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 12, 2002)

When  it all boils down speed and power are relative to what you want to accomplish.  You only have to be fast enough to stop the atack, and with enough power to dissuade him from wanting to do anymore.  Overkill or overskill in the eyes of the law youare still in trouble for excessive bodily harm to your attacker.


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## Kirk (Mar 12, 2002)

One could use the argument that a crocodile isn't all that fast,
yet still has the ability to crush you, with pure strength.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *One could use the argument that a crocodile isn't all that fast,
> yet still has the ability to crush you, with pure strength. *



They make ugly, yet effective guard dogs!


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 13, 2002)

Whadda get when you cross a crocodile and a Pitbull?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
A Crockabull



:rofl:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Whadda get when you cross a crocodile and a Pitbull?
> .
> ...



Thankfully a sense of humor is not a belt requirement or we would all still be white belts.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 13, 2002)

Are you saying I don't have a great sense of humor Mr. Rob?!!!!


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## parkerkarate (Feb 12, 2004)

This is what I have been trying to figure out for the past couple years since I was tested for my 2nd black. I have found the fater I move

1. The more balance I need
2. More power comes with it

But with power comes responsibility, you can not teach and then speed through something really fast because your student will have no clue what the heck you just did. Trust me on that one. BUt you also need good basics, you can't be speeding through something and then fall on your but because you didn't have any balance. To create power focus on the priniples of Kenpo, such as Marriage of Gravity and Borrowed Force. Think of some techniques like you are "blitzing" your opponent. THere are going to be some techniques that you will have to slow down with grappling and manuvering the opponent. Just some stuff for you to think about.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 12, 2004)

Uh...have y'll watched a croc grab, say, a small dog?


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## parkerkarate (Feb 12, 2004)

Ok that would be random, but I understand what you are talking about.


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## Les (Feb 14, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Have all of you considered the elements of Speed?
> 
> Perceptual * Mental * Physical
> 
> A response is accomplished with a combination of the 3 elements.  One must perceive then process mentally which moves the physical.



Then, of course, you need to consider the different types of speed within each of these elements.


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## Les (Feb 14, 2004)

In all these posts, no-one has mentioned a third and *vital * ingredient.

ACCURACY

Without accuracy, both fast and powerful strikes are going to be pretty much 'Lucky' shots.

Someone earlier mentioned timing, which is also a very important factor, but no-one seem to want to explore that avenue either.

Les


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## Kenpomachine (Feb 14, 2004)

I agree with you Les. 

What I can't understand is the statement that you can have power without speed. Well, or a good amount of mass behind it (your weight measure in the farmacy). It's not speed throughout the trajectory of the strike, but at the moment of impact, and this is were the back up mass, marriage of gravity and instantaneous acceleration comes into play. And to get the most from these effects you have to work through your body mechanics and body allinement (sp?). That is also why some, say _slow_ punches can be so devastating, because of this final acceleration. And you can also get this acceleration by relaxing your muscles until the impact...

And I would add that timing is the ingredient that helps the both of them working smoothly to get the optimun effect (optimun meaning the desired effect, whatever that is in a situation) with maximun accuracy and effectivity.

It all derives from the old physics learnt in school 
F = m · a (mass · acceleration)
a = s / t (speed / time) If memory doesn't fail me...


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## WhiteTiger (Feb 14, 2004)

We talk about Force=mxa, but this expression describes the "theoretical" force of the punch, if it could be measured at the knuckles.  What should concern us as martial artists is the effective transfer of force from our punch into the target.  Speed and "effective mass" are certainly primary components of this, however, maximizing the energy that is transfered into the target is much more complex.  Surface area, angle of incidence, fluid dynamics, all play into transfer of force.  Remember the human body is essentially a bag of water, and energy in transfered into a fluid much differently than into a solid object.  This is where depth of target, breath control, muscle control, recoil of the weapon, and form play a major part in the energy transfer.

It is true that speed and mass are irrefutablly linked to gererating force in a punch but these other variables are also key components of a powerful punch.


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## Kenpomachine (Feb 14, 2004)

WhiteTiger said:
			
		

> What should concern us as martial artists is the effective transfer of force from our punch into the target.



This also has to do with the law of the conservation of the quantity of movement: m11 x v11 + m21 x v21 = m12 x v12 + m22 x v22 In which the first number represents a body and the second a moment. It's the same law that applies to billiard balls, i.e.



> however, maximizing the energy that is transfered into the target is much more complex. Surface area, angle of incidence, fluid dynamics, all play into transfer of force



Well, I never thought about fluid dynamics as applied to kenpo, and I guess I don't remember much about it either :S And we're pro'lly forgetting more of the variables that come into play when hitting. We're lucky we don't have to think about these theories everytime we strike or we'd never hit anything :rofl: (which doesn't mean you don't have to take them into account subconsciously, that's what training is for, isn't it)


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