# Ground fighting choices -- Judo or BJJ?



## vankuen

I'd like to learn a little more about Judo and how it differs from BJJ or Jiu-jitsu.  

I'm looking at studying the ground game, having been doing standup for the past 25 years or so, I figure it's about time to get good at it.  I took a look at some of the Judo vids and BJJ vids on youtube and don't really see too much of a difference in things...aside from better throws in judo and perhaps more technical prowess on the ground with BJJ.  

Is that about right in the most simplistic of differences?


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## arnisador

Judo and BJJ are very similar in terms of techniques--BJJ comes from Judo, not jujutsu--but the rules of BJJ encourage a ground game whereas the rules of Judo encourage a standing game. So, your description is probably right: Judo works the throws more, while BJJ works the ground grappling more. BJJ also adds in some wrestling-style takedowns, but all this takes away from how often you're standing and grappling.

For self-defense, both are good but BJJ probably adds a more needed component, in my opinion.


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## CuongNhuka

Just remember, BJJ stands for one of two things: Brazialian Ju Jitsu, or Basicly Just Judo. The reason is that the major differnce is the rules.
Arni is right (sorta). BJJ adds a differnit component to your Wing Chun (BJJ does focus on the ground, which would be very differnit then what you are used to). However, I would take Judo if I were you. 
Judo is more practicle in a fight. Since BJJ focuses on the ground, you would be in a BAD place if you were in a fight with it. However, there are stories of Judo fighters who were so strong, they seriously injured there opponents in matches, just from a throw! If you don't believe me, wiki Masahiko Kimura.


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## Flying Crane

CuongNhuka said:


> However, there are stories of Judo fighters who were so strong, they seriously injured there opponents in matches, just from a throw! If you don't believe me, wiki Masahiko Kimura.


 

You don't have to be strong to do this.  If you catch a good throw on someone and slam them on the concrete, there's a good chance they aren't getting back up.  If they land on their head or neck, they may never get up again.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but it's my understanding that judo starts on the feet and likes to work throws.  Once on the ground, they are also very capable, as this is the next step once someone is thrown down.

BJJ likes to go to the ground quickly and fight from there, and doesn't work the throws the way judo does.  It's just a different approach and philosophy on how and when to get to the ground.  

Personally, I suspect they both offer very similar ground skills.  It's how they get to the ground that I think is perhaps the biggest difference.

And yes, as Arnisador stated, BJJ has roots in Kodokan Judo.  It was a student of Judo's founder, Jigoro Kano, who ended up in Brazil and taught a very aggressive style of judo, which was adapted and became BJJ.


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## CuongNhuka

Flying Crane said:


> You don't have to be strong to do this. If you catch a good throw on someone and slam them on the concrete, there's a good chance they aren't getting back up. If they land on their head or neck, they may never get up again.


 
Yah, but I mean Kimura would throw _experts_ in Judo onto matts designed to absorb that kind of force, and he would still break there bones. Concussions, broken ribs, brocken arms, and so on were common. If he were a BJJ fighter, this probably wouldn't have happened.


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## Flying Crane

CuongNhuka said:


> Yah, but I mean Kimura would throw _experts_ in Judo onto matts designed to absorb that kind of force, and he would still break there bones. Concussions, broken ribs, brocken arms, and so on were common. If he were a BJJ fighter, this probably wouldn't have happened.


 
yeah, but if self defense is the goal, it's unlikely you will need to fight off a mugger who is a highly trained judo or BJJ guy.


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## vankuen

Good point.  I also think that it would be a good style to bridge the standup fight to the ground fight.  From what I've seen of Judo clips, it seems they are just as capable on the ground, perhaps not with leg locks and such...but still veeeery good.


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## Abbax8

What schools are near you? Go check them out, watch a couple of classes and decide which appeals to you more. I teach judo and we do about 60% groundwork and 40% throwing most nights, I find groundwork easier on my joints. Other schools might reverse this or emphasize throwing more. Some BJJ schools do more throws than others, it depends on the instructor and what the school emphasizes. 

Peace

Dennis


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## CuongNhuka

Flying Crane said:


> yeah, but if self defense is the goal, it's unlikely you will need to fight off a mugger who is a highly trained judo or BJJ guy.


 
They were hurt because they were thrown so hard/fast that they couldn't land properly. Do the same kind of throw to someone who doesn't know how to land properly in the first place, and they will probably die.


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## Flying Crane

CuongNhuka said:


> They were hurt because they were thrown so hard/fast that they couldn't land properly. Do the same kind of throw to someone who doesn't know how to land properly in the first place, and they will probably die.


 
That's exactly my point.  You don't need to be as good as he was, to throw someone on the street hard enough to kill him, especially if the bad guy isn't trained in falling.  All you need is a well-executed throw, which a reasonable amount of judo training can enable you to do.  You don't need to be a truly superior judoka to do this. And a concrete landing pad helps augment the effects.

Don't underestimate the effect of a good throw, even if done by a mediocre judoka.


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## CuongNhuka

Flying Crane said:


> That's exactly my point. You don't need to be as good as he was, to throw someone on the street hard enough to kill him, especially if the bad guy isn't trained in falling. All you need is a well-executed throw, which a reasonable amount of judo training can enable you to do. You don't need to be a truly superior judoka to do this. And a concrete landing pad helps augment the effects.
> 
> Don't underestimate the effect of a good throw, even if done by a mediocre judoka.


 
True, but a BJJ guy probably couldn't do the same is my point. Kimura was able to do this because the rules of Judo made it so _he_ focused on the throwing aspect. If he was a BJJ fighter, he probably wouldn't have bothered to develop that kind of force, but rather, beating his opponents on the ground.


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## Touch Of Death

Judo plays by more limiting rules. You get to break things with BJJ.
Sean


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## vankuen

I've set an appointment with a place called universal judo...

website: www.universaljudo.com

I'll be heading out there on Monday.  The head coach is supposedly an world olympic coach and got coach of the year recently.  So it would seem that this could be a good school  The pricing isn't as inflated as BJJ either.  

The assistant coach told me that they will practice throws, pins, chokes, submissions/joint locks.  She said the only thing excluded would be leg and ankle locks.

I've already tried out a local BJJ place...they pretty much did things the same way as the place I trained at for a while in Florida 7 years ago.  The local place's website is here: http://marrajj.homestead.com

So after I take this judo class, I'll be able to assess the teaching abilities of both places, the training atmosphere, and so forth.


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## vankuen

Well...I finally got to partake in the Judo experience in addition to the BJJ experience from a couple weeks ago...here is my assessment: 

BJJ pro's: 

School's got a good reputation for being legitimate with an accredited black belt instructor.

All the guys there seemed nice and the senior students were helpful.

Great beginning workout and lot's of rolling which was good because it "shocked" me back into grappling mode.
BJJ con's: 

$$$ Expensive $$$.  I think is due in part to the popularity given to it by the UFC.  It's all hyped up right now and thus the demand is higher which equates to higher price.

The atmosphere was very...how do you say...macho?  Everyone there seemed to be up on the UFC bandwagon and the training was all about that.

I got pretty much no instruction either.  The "technique" learned that day was "get in side mount and don't let the other guy out of it".  During rolling I got zero instruction from the instructor outside of when I couldn't get out of a move and he finally decided to give me a tip on how to get out of it. The senior students (by time) helped me from a technical standpoint moreso than the instructor(s).

Peformance wise I did alright, considering I hadn't rolled in years. Managed to move through a couple positions and maintain my own.  Got no sub's that day though because I gassed out severly.
 
Judo pro's: 

World class coach, with many champion blackbelts under him. There's a variety of belt ranks and body types, and everyone there is very helpful during rolling/randori.

Price was more reasonable...by about half of what the BJJ place was asking for.

The atmosphere seemed to be more "fun" while at the same time people were working out very intensely.  The teaching style was more detail oriented and we got to practice the techniques on a more docile uke before trying to apply it during newaza (the training that day was all newaza).

I did much better performance wise this time around.  I trained harder in between tryouts to make sure I didn't gas out again so soon.  This time around I didn't gas out at all--and was able to apply my previously trained BJJ and newly learned Judo positions.  Was able to gain dominant position a couple times on a brown belt, and was able to get and maintain dominant position and a number of subs on a green belt--pretty much cleaned up on that second guy.
Judo con's: 

The beginning workout isn't as intense.  This is both good and bad though--saves energy for practice but doesn't get you into as good of shape.  Luckily I train outside of class for cardio and strength.

I wonder about the skill level of the students given my better performance that day.  While I always enjoy being able to perform well and would like to think it was me simply getting back into the game, I still have to wonder if it was me being better or him being worse.  Just don't know which to put more stock into...
 
Overall--I really like having gotten back into the ground game after doing standup for so long.  I was in a good mood after the BJJ class, but a great mood at the end of the Judo class, and that is mostly what I used as a determinant--how it felt when everything was all said and done that day.  That said...I am now officially a Judoka!!


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Congratulations on your choice.*  My experience training in BJJ and also having Judo guy's (some national champion level) roll through was simply that the Judo guy's throws were great and I do mean really, really good!  However their ground game was just not as strong.  I remember one Judo Champion taking down almost anyone he wanted at will but once on the ground all of the blue belts and up just dominated him as he had dominated us in the throwing department.


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## vankuen

I've heard that about JJ groundwork vs Judo groundwork and so I wondered about that myself.  I hear that most BJJ blue's are about the same as Judo black's.  Your story lines up with the outcome that night as well...perhaps my time taking BJJ years ago allowed me to do well that night in Judo?  It would also explain possibly why I didn't do so well at the BJJ school I recently visited (if it wasn't _just_ my gassing out).   

I've always felt it is up to the individual to make good on his techniques--given that the groundwork is pretty much the same stuff.  I wonder if it could also be that some Judo's schools practice nagawaza (throwing) more than newaza (grappling)?  

This club I've joined does half and half every night.  First part of class is nagewaza and the second half is newaza.  If I keep doing better than my peers on the ground without significant instruction, I may end up switching out later to JJ...but we'll see.  Not like I can't practice more groundwork with some of the other students from my BJJ master text!  BWAHAHAHAHA!  

Actually...I don't have that book yet, but I was thinking about getting it to help fill gaps that I saw in the judo groundwork that I might find down the line.  I've already found that I don't like the fact that they focus on the olympics so much...as opposed to self enlightenment / self defense.  But the techniques are good and the players there are there to win...so it's good training.


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## Brian R. VanCise

vankuen said:


> I've heard that about JJ groundwork vs Judo groundwork and so I wondered about that myself. I hear that most BJJ blue's are about the same as Judo black's. Your story lines up with the outcome that night as well...perhaps my time taking BJJ years ago allowed me to do well that night in Judo? It would also explain possibly why I didn't do so well at the BJJ school I recently visited (if it wasn't _just_ my gassing out).
> 
> I've always felt it is up to the individual to make good on his techniques--given that the groundwork is pretty much the same stuff. I wonder if it could also be that some Judo's schools practice nagawaza (throwing) more than newaza (grappling)?
> 
> This club I've joined does half and half every night. First part of class is nagewaza and the second half is newaza. If I keep doing better than my peers on the ground without significant instruction, I may end up switching out later to JJ...but we'll see. Not like I can't practice more groundwork with some of the other students from my BJJ master text! BWAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> Actually...I don't have that book yet, but I was thinking about getting it to help fill gaps that I saw in the judo groundwork that I might find down the line. I've already found that I don't like the fact that they focus on the olympics so much...as opposed to self enlightenment / self defense. But the techniques are good and the players there are there to win...so it's good training.


 
The BJJ Master Text by Helio Gracie is very nice so is his new book Gracie Submissions with Royler.  The true classic and still the best is Brazilian Jiujitsu Theory and Technique by Renzo and Royler Gracie.  Anyways, enjoy your new training hall!


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## bigfootsquatch

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The BJJ Master Text by Helio Gracie is very nice so is his new book Gracie Submissions with Royler. The true classic and still the best is Brazilian Jiujitsu Theory and Technique by Renzo and Royler Gracie. Anyways, enjoy your new training hall!


 
Hey Brian, I have Brazilian Jiujitsu Theory and Technique as well. It is a very good book,  but buyer beware!, the book really isn't set up in any belt sequence, though it is color coded as such....and some of the moves are outdated. Overall it is definitely a step above many other jiu jitsu books, and other martial art instructionals in general.


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## Ybot

I think it's great that you decided to go with Judo.  Judo is a great art (yet in my experience, far more painful than BJJ).  That said, I'd like to go off into a but of a (related) rant.

It is true that BJJ came originally from Judo.  So, really, the sets of techniques used in each art are the same (though it could be argued that in their current forms BJJ has a larger variety of technique, not only because it has a larger number of legal joints to attack, including knee, ankle, and wrist, but it also allows much more leeway when it comes to face contact allowing one to use their fore arm to pry a head up for a choke, or cross-face hard for position, in addition to allowing every technique used in competition Judo).  My problem stems from the fact that because they use the same technique sets, they are the same.  This simply is not true.  Yes they are similar (closely related), but they are definitely different arts unique in and of themselves.

It was also previously noted that it is the difference in rule sets that account for the differences, and while I believe this to be true, I think that this explanation is too simplistic and doesn't really explain the differences enough.  Based solely on that explanation it might be reasonably assumed that a slight change in BJJ rules to emphasize throwing could change BJJ into Judo, or more emphasis on newaza would make Judo mat work more BJJish.

When it comes down to it, Judoka and Jiu-Jitsieros (  Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu after all) look at mat work differently.  Their strategies are different.  The fact that Judo allows wins for pinning, and doesn't reward specific positions on the ground with points as BJJ does provides Judoka with a very different idea of what is valuable, and changes the dynamics compared to BJJ which rewards getting to and maintaining (for a short time) positions that it values, and BJJ doesn't care how long you spend on your back.  It is no wonder that BJJ guard games are far more dynamic, and BJJ mat work tends to flow more then Judo mat work.  Judo hold downs are in the end going to be far tighter, but their lack of positional points lead to far more choppy motion, with more explosive attacks.  Also, because of the pinning turn overs from turtle become far more important, and so Judoka's turn-over game is going to be more dynamic.

Looking at the stand up portion, again I don't believe that it is simply the difference of time spent on takedowns that changes the games.  In Judo it is possible to win with a single, well executed throw.  This leads one to judge technical excellence based on how you make a person land and control of the person in the throw.  In BJJ on the other hand all takedowns are worth the same point wise, and unless you injure your opponent with your throw, the match will continue on the ground no matter how technically perfect the throw was.  It is no wonder that Jiu-Jitsiero's neglect training so hard on takedowns when a simple drag down may be far more prudent than a perfect Ippon style throw that allows your opponent a dominant position (ex. on your back) when the match continues with ground work.  It is for this reason I think that Jiu-Jitsieros are far more cautious with big throws, and will tend to gravitate to to the less clean looking, but far more cautious types of takedowns, such as single & double legs, foot sweeps, drag downs, and various sacrifice type techniques.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I've read far too many 'judo and BJJ are the same" threads online lately.  Take into account that though I am a Judo fan, my experience with Judo is mostly as a spectator.  I'd be curious to see how Judoka see the differences.


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## D Dempsey

vankuen said:


> The atmosphere was very...how do you say...macho?  Everyone there seemed to be up on the UFC bandwagon and the training was all about that.


 I honestly find this a little surprising.  I've been to a lot of BJJ schools and I've never really encountered this.  Most of them are really laid back and the people are generally really friendly.  If it was a beginner class I guess it would make a little more sense, as the newbies haven't been beaten up enough to know better.


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## vankuen

Oh no...don't misunderstand, they were all nice guys, and really into training--but the atmosphere was just different in that way.  Macho doesn't mean that they were cocky, just there was an element of machismo there that didn't exist in other BJJ schools I've visited and trained at.  Hell most of the guys that night didn't even show up because there was a good UFC fight on that night!  That's sorta what I'm getting at.  

Personally--I would train over watching a fight--but then while I like the UFC and competition, I'm not a UFC leg humper either.


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## D Dempsey

I see what you mean.  That probably isn't to out of the usual.  It probably depends on the focus of the club and the personality of the instructor more than anything else.  Good natured trash talking to your team-mates seems to be pretty prolific in most physical activities.


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## matt.m

I know I am starting a flaming barn burner here.  However, I am a 2nd dan (Nidan) in Judo and I am here to tell you the following: Don't believe the hype.

After visiting Rodrigo Vaghi in St. L, who is a multi time world champion and 3rd dan under Rickson Gracie agreed with me that BJJ is a combat sport.  It's main focus is wait till the opponent takes you down so you can begin your magic.

Yes Judo teaches a ton of ground fighting, however they are taught as followups to the throw that took their opponent down.

For instance the following techniques are an example: Floating hip throw to ground arm bar.

Rodrigo told me himself that he doesn't teach much on how to fall, nor off balance from the standing.

Whereas in arts like hapkido and judo, if you are on the ground then you are more than likely loosing.  

The person who taught Helio was a student of the Japanese national champ as well as Jigoro Kano's student.

So really to me and from what I have seen of BJJ it is a watered down version of Traditional Kodokan Judo.

I will say this with certainty that in a fight, not a cage......unless we are both in gi's, there is no blue belt on the planet that will beat me.

Sorry, just my opinion.


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## vankuen

Well...I typically don't worry about belt rankings at all...as even in fighting arts, they don't mean much.  I am a white belt in both Judo and Jujutsu, but do well against some green belts, blue belts, and brown belts.  Granted I've got prior throwing and grappling experience from gung fu, so I've got some existing attributes for the tasks.  Plus, I watch a lot of fights on youtube! 

I know what you're saying about the history of Kodokan Judo, and "Kosen" Judo (since there really isn't such a thing), Maeda and the Gracies.  Although Maeda originally introduced it to the Gracies and Kimura influenced it as well, I think the BJJ that we see today isn't necesssarily watered down version of Kodokan Judo (though that will eventually come to pass) but simply evolved from it's original source.  Given it's intention and ruleset, it employes different strategy and tactics.  

But I agree with you that Judoka can be just as good on the ground, but I think it mostly depends on the individual and not his or her belt.


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## theletch1

Here's a link to the history of BJJ.  From what I can gather from reading it what we see is that it is a highly specialized form of jiu-jutsu... modified to take advantage of smaller body frames in it's infancy.  Like any living art it will continue to evolve into an art with it's own rich history and it's origins will matter a little less.

As to the Judo vs BJJ question... there's a reason that a particular shoulder lock in BJJ is called a "Kimura".


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## D Dempsey

theletch1 said:


> Here's a link to the history of BJJ.  From what I can gather from reading it what we see is that it is a highly specialized form of jiu-jutsu... modified to take advantage of smaller body frames in it's infancy.  Like any living art it will continue to evolve into an art with it's own rich history and it's origins will matter a little less.
> 
> As to the Judo vs BJJ question... there's a reason that a particular shoulder lock in BJJ is called a "Kimura".


I'm not sure how much of this is propaganda and how much is factual.  According to Carlson Sr. the original material taught by his father was mainly stand-up grappling with a lot of the ground work coming later.  The weak body thing never sat well with me either.  being 140 pounds at that time wasn't really all that small especially compared to the average height and weight of the japanese from the same time period.  Also one should keep in mind that the Carlos Gracie wasn't the only student of Maeda in Brazil, so there are schools of BJJ that have no lineage through the Gracie family.


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## vankuen

Good point.  If Maeda taught others, there may been derivitives of the said judo.  However there were no "specialized" styles of judo at all from what I've been reading about it's history.  The Kosen Judo was merely a different rule set which allowed for more newaza techniques during competition.  It wasn't a system with a different set of tools or anything.  

But as far as BJJ, I've read that the Gracies were taught by Maeda, and then started to innovate on their own.  Later Helio fought Kimura, and lost with Kimura using the bent arm shoulder lock--now known amongst BJJ and MMA'ers as the Kimura.  

Does it matter today?  Not really other than for friendly historical debate and giving credit where credit is due.


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## D Dempsey

Kosen Judo and BJJ have no real connection, if you look at the time tables for the start of Kosen style tournament you will see that Maeda had been long gone from japan.  They both have the same root but developed independent of each other.

There is no real point in arguing about what is the best.  The big three styles Judo, Sambo, and BJJ are all pretty much the exact same skill-set with slightly different strategic doctrines.  
If you really want to see an interesting history, the soviet development of Sambo is a whole lot more fascinating than that of BJJ.


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## Abbax8

I started judo in 1967.  I remember when  UFC 1  happened  and all  the hype.  Trust me,  BJJ  is Kodokan Judo contested under a different rule set. I have been taught the same holds, transitions and reverses as are featured in any BJJ textbook I can find, and I was taught then in a judo class before  BJJ  was heard of here in the USA.

Now that being said, BJJ is an excellent art to study as is judo. Also the way BJJ or Judo is taught or studied depends on the club and the teacher.

Pick one and have fun and learn!

Peace

Dennis


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## D Dempsey

Abbax8 said:


> Also the way BJJ or Judo is taught or studied depends on the club and the teacher.
> 
> Pick one and have fun and learn!


Quoted for truth.

I've been to BJJ schools that do no stand-up and judo schools that do no groundwork, but most fall somewhere between these two extremes.


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## allenjp

I find it interesting that "rules" are mentioned so often in discussing these styles. In my BJJ class there has never been any mention of "rules", just what position will get you choked out or your arm broken, and which one will allow you to do that to your opponent. As a matter of fact we spend a good amount of time learning to defend against strikes in different positions. And no, this is not an "MMA" class. It is a traditional Gracie Barra class with full Gis and the like. I have noticed that the "sport" aspect of martial arts is often what causes them to lose sight of their original purpose, which is combat.

For example, I have seen instructional series on sport Judo, where Ippon is acheived by someone lying on their back on top of their opponents chest. Anyone who has studied BJJ knows that this is a very good way to get yourself choked out. Also, I used to wrestle Greco-Roman in high school and while you do learn good principles about position and leverage, the "rules" in sport Greco-Roman wrestling make it impractcle as a combat art. Simply pinning your opponents shoulders on the mat does nothing to actually defeat them in a combat situation, and the pin rule eliminates the chance to learn defensive and offensive techniques from your back. I am sure that Judo can be a very effective combat art (having been thrown in similar ways in my BJJ class and experiencing the pain those throws can inflict) but IMHO the sporting and olympic aspect MAY HAVE (I am not sure having never trained in Judo) watered down its combat effectiveness somewhat. 

I do realize however that many of the techniques taught as BJJ are simply borrowed from Judo or Jujutsu. The "kimura" or bent arm lock is one, as is the "straight armbar". So I am sure these techniques are just as effective no matter what the name of the place you learn them is. 

Once again just MHO...


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## Abbax8

The immobilization holds judo are simply one part of the grappling syllabus, and what constitutes an ippon has changed over time. In the beginning, there was no time limit on holds and it was up to the referee to decide how long control equaled victory. Later it was set at 2 minutes. When I started judo it was 30 seconds, now it is 25 seconds. 

As far as getting choked by laying on your opponents chest I guess you mean Tate-Shiho-Gatame. In this hold you normally control one arm, one shoulder and pin with your weight. While any hold can be broken, getting choked has never been a problem when using this hold, it is a favorite of mine as it is a submission hold if one knows how to place your arm under their shoulder.

The "rules" for randori or shiai are their to lessen injuries. In no way do they prevent a person from learning the self defense applications. Indeed, it is the free fighting with the rules in place that allow people to train against fully resisting opponents that enhance their readiness for a true self defense situation. 

In some dojos, judokas will have opportunities to train against strikes and kicks, strikes with a bat or stick and even against blades or guns. They will also learn striking techniques. Of course there are also those dojo that concentrate on contests. 

Many practitioners enter judo for the contest part and then after their competition years are behind them, concentrate on the rest of the syllabus. It's all good and all has its place.

Peace

Dennis


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## allenjp

OK, 

Beleive me I am not here to bash anyone's style, I am just a little confused by the idea of ippon, even in a sporting sense. Is the goal of ippon just to hold your opponent down for a certain amount of time? If so, what are you going to do with him then? In "sport" BJJ, you must actually cause your opponent enough pain that he submits for fear that you will either choke him unconcious or break a limb or joint if he doesn't give up fast enough. Granted, there are points and judges for matches where neither one can submit the other, it just seems that this is a more effective way to hone your combat skills than simply holding your opponent in a position where he can't move for awhile.


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## vankuen

_Ippon_ is scored when: A contestant with control throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed; or a contestant holds with osaekomi-waza the other contestant, who is unable to get away for 25 seconds after the announcement of osaekomi (osaekomi to be covered later); or a contestant gives up by tapping twice or more with his hand or foot or says "matte" (I give up), generally as a result of a grappling technique, shime waza (strangle) or kansetsu-waza (armlock); or the effect of a strangle technique or arm lock is apparent to the referee.

Source: http://www.judoinfo.com/tourdesc.htm


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## Bodhisattva

vankuen said:


> I'd like to learn a little more about Judo and how it differs from BJJ or Jiu-jitsu.
> 
> I'm looking at studying the ground game, having been doing standup for the past 25 years or so, I figure it's about time to get good at it. I took a look at some of the Judo vids and BJJ vids on youtube and don't really see too much of a difference in things...aside from better throws in judo and perhaps more technical prowess on the ground with BJJ.
> 
> Is that about right in the most simplistic of differences?


 
Massive differences, but both are good.

BJJ is much better, IMO, because of the difference in the rules.

BJJ - Win by choke, joint lock (foot/ankle, knee, hip, elbow, shoulder, wrist, spine) or "out point" the man
Judo - Win by Strong throw to the backside, Pin, Choke, Elbow Lock, Shoulder Lock or "out point" your opponent.

The trouble with Judo is the focus on Pinning, and the fact that if there isn't enough action on the ground the ref will stop the fight, and stand the fighters back up.

This causes a lack of focus in most Judo classes on Ground fighting.

However, truth be known, Judo isn't a bad choice at all.  Both are great.  And both are a heck of a lot of fun.


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## vankuen

allenjp said:


> Is the goal of ippon just to hold your opponent down for a certain amount of time? If so, what are you going to do with him then?
> 
> ...it just seems that this is a more effective way to hone your combat skills than simply holding your opponent in a position where he can't move for awhile.


 
While I completely understand your point, I thought about your question for a bit. 

An answer I came up with was If you were to some reason be in a fight where you don't want to hurt the other individual and simply want to control them, for example.  You can let them try their hardest to get out of the pin, and when they gas out, get all their frustrations out, you can let them up.  Granted, I wouldn't do that in a bar with someone I don't know where his friends can kick my *** while I'm lying on their buddy...but you get the point.  

It's like the progression of force, you only use as much force as necessary, and if stopping the aggressor by means of a pin will do it, there's no reason to choke him or break his arm, or punch and kick him to a pulp.


----------



## Ybot

vankuen said:


> While I completely understand your point, I thought about your question for a bit.
> 
> An answer I came up with was If you were to some reason be in a fight where you don't want to hurt the other individual and simply want to control them, for example.  You can let them try their hardest to get out of the pin, and when they gas out, get all their frustrations out, you can let them up.  Granted, I wouldn't do that in a bar with someone I don't know where his friends can kick my *** while I'm lying on their buddy...but you get the point.
> 
> It's like the progression of force, you only use as much force as necessary, and if stopping the aggressor by means of a pin will do it, there's no reason to choke him or break his arm, or punch and kick him to a pulp.


To add to your reasoning, there can be some major legal issues if you break a limb or choke someone unconscious and they have some complication (usually having to do with them hitting their head).

Also, if you really think about it, 25 seconds are a long time if the fight occurs in a public place.  Hopefully there will be people there to separate you within the time of that pin.


----------



## Abbax8

Here's a link that gives the evolution of judo rules

http://www.judoinfo.com/rules2.htm

Peace

Dennis


----------



## allenjp

Ybot said:


> To add to your reasoning, there can be some major legal issues if you break a limb or choke someone unconscious and they have some complication (usually having to do with them hitting their head).
> 
> Also, if you really think about it, 25 seconds are a long time if the fight occurs in a public place. Hopefully there will be people there to separate you within the time of that pin.


 
Both you and vankuen have very good and valid points here. First of all I didn't know that there was also a submission component to judo. That changes things a bit. Also, although I currently train in BJJ and love every minute of it, one of the negatives I have always seen in the BJJ "realm" is the sort of macho attitude displayed by some of its practitioners and even founders. We have all I'm sure heard of the stories of Rickson Gracie and Ryan Gracie having more victories in street fights than in the ring. I don't know about the laws in Brazil but in the U.S. that kind of thing can get you into serious trouble. It is a good idea to have other options available than just permanently disabling or killing your opponent. I have never wanted to study MA to bully people around, and in my opinion, a higher percentage of BJJers study for this reason than in other arts. My instructor is very professional in this regard however, and that's why I like him.

Thanks for the thoughtful ideas.


----------



## allenjp

vankuen said:


> ... You can let them try their hardest to get out of the pin, and when they gas out, get all their frustrations out, you can let them up. Granted, I wouldn't do that in a bar with someone I don't know where his friends can kick my *** while I'm lying on their buddy...


 
Yeah agreed, you're probably better off not getting on the ground in that situation anyway, friends to stomp you in the head, glass on the floor, beer to soil your nice clothes, things of that kind...of course I generally take it a step further and avoid bars altogether...much easier to avoid barfights that way


----------



## Brian S

allenjp said:


> OK,
> 
> Beleive me I am not here to bash anyone's style, I am just a little confused by the idea of ippon, even in a sporting sense. Is the goal of ippon just to hold your opponent down for a certain amount of time? If so, what are you going to do with him then? In "sport" BJJ, you must actually cause your opponent enough pain that he submits for fear that you will either choke him unconcious or break a limb or joint if he doesn't give up fast enough. Granted, there are points and judges for matches where neither one can submit the other, it just seems that this is a more effective way to hone your combat skills than simply holding your opponent in a position where he can't move for awhile.


 
I don't understand the confusion, maybe the disagreement,but not confusion.
Judo is sport and sport has rules.Whether you agree with that sport and it's rules decides if you want to participate.
I don't really like point sparring of TKD,so I don't participate.
I think your understanding of judo's rules is limited,so it's kind of hard to judge.
Your personal goals dictate what you deem credible and worth participating in.
There no confusion about it imo, it just is what it is, sport.

If we are taking things to the SD level we need to add in a whole cluster of elements,but I won't get into that.


----------



## allenjp

Brian S said:


> I don't understand the confusion, maybe the disagreement,but not confusion.
> Judo is sport and sport has rules.Whether you agree with that sport and it's rules decides if you want to participate.
> I don't really like point sparring of TKD,so I don't participate.
> I think your understanding of judo's rules is limited,so it's kind of hard to judge.
> Your personal goals dictate what you deem credible and worth participating in.
> There no confusion about it imo, it just is what it is, sport.
> 
> If we are taking things to the SD level we need to add in a whole cluster of elements,but I won't get into that.


 
The name of the thread is ground FIGHTING choices, I guess I just assumed that the poster wanted to know what was best in a FIGHT, to me a fight is not a sport. Hence the confusion...I was not saying anyone else should be confused, just that I was. We went from talking about fighting, to talking about rules, which IMO are mutually exclusive of each other. And BTW, I think that many judoka might take offense to your characterization of judo as only a sport. Many of them practice judo for SD purposes and think many of it's techniques highly useful for that purpose. I would tend to agree with them.


----------



## vankuen

I don't care if someone thinks it's just sport or not, as I tend to think that combat sports are more likely to provide skills that will provide a higher ratio of success in real combat application.  The reason being is that combat sports constantly pressure test against resisting opponents.  So sport orientated or not, the natural attributes and skills will more likely be successful than if you were taking a typical school with unrealistic training practices.  It's been proven time and again.  I would bet on a sport fighter every time over a "traditional" stylist any day.  

That's why I started up with Judo anyway...to compliment all my standup fighting and to bridge the gap between standup and submission grappling.  I also like that I can go full out with someone and not worry about either one of us really getting hurt...whereas in striking arts if we go full out...someone is likely getting hurt.  Who wants to look like Ed Norton in fight club going to work?  :wink2:


----------



## Ybot

allenjp said:


> It is a good idea to have other options available than just permanently disabling or killing your opponent. I have never wanted to study MA to bully people around, and in my opinion, a higher percentage of BJJers study for this reason than in other arts.


I truly don't believe that BJJ is worse as far as bullying than any other martial art.  I have seen traditional Karate schools, kung fu schools, and boxing clubs that encourage that as much or more than the worst BJJ club I have ever heard of.  The problem IMO is the advertisement of the Gracie challenge as a marketing tool.  It made BJJ one of the most popular martial arts around, but also left us with a reputation that I believe is unfair.


----------



## Drac

matt.m said:


> Yes Judo teaches a ton of ground fighting, however they are taught as followups to the throw that took their opponent down.
> 
> For instance the following techniques are an example: Floating hip throw to ground arm bar.
> 
> Rodrigo told me himself that he doesn't teach much on how to fall, nor off balance from the standing.
> 
> Whereas in arts like hapkido and judo, if you are on the ground then you are more than likely loosing.
> 
> The person who taught Helio was a student of the Japanese national champ as well as Jigoro Kano's student.
> 
> So really to me and from what I have seen of BJJ it is a watered down version of Traditional Kodokan Judo.
> 
> I will say this with certainty that in a fight, not a cage......unless we are both in gi's, there is no blue belt on the planet that will beat me.
> 
> Sorry, just my opinion.


 
Good post....


----------



## Bodhisattva

vankuen said:


> I'd like to learn a little more about Judo and how it differs from BJJ or Jiu-jitsu.
> 
> I'm looking at studying the ground game, having been doing standup for the past 25 years or so, I figure it's about time to get good at it. I took a look at some of the Judo vids and BJJ vids on youtube and don't really see too much of a difference in things...aside from better throws in judo and perhaps more technical prowess on the ground with BJJ.
> 
> Is that about right in the most simplistic of differences?


 
Definitely BJJ - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not restricted by rules that downplay Newaza.  Also, pinning and hold-downs are just set-ups for submissions in BJJ.

Judo isn't a bad second choice, however.  I like Judo a lot - great art.


----------



## matt.m

Bodhisattva said:


> Definitely BJJ - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not restricted by rules that downplay Newaza. Also, pinning and hold-downs are just set-ups for submissions in BJJ.
> 
> Judo isn't a bad second choice, however. I like Judo a lot - great art.


 

Sorry sir but we must agree to diisagree.  BJJ is a good art yes, but as compared to Judo it is nothing but 1/3 of cirriculum.  I don't know, I just think that BJJ is "The best pancakes ever made"  all thanks to the UFC.  However one of the creators of the UFC got beat at UFC 3, and lost to Matt Hughes, a wrestler.

I would love to see Karo Paryisian vs. one of the Gracie's, I don't care who in a gi match and see who won that one.  I mean Karo is a great cage fighter and he stuck only to his judo roots.

Japanese JiuJitsu is amazing, like the founding Kwans in Hapkido.  Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese JiuJitsu is comparing an apple to an orange.  It is a dumbed down version of "Favorite Techniques" by the gracies.


----------



## allenjp

matt.m said:


> Sorry sir but we must agree to diisagree. BJJ is a good art yes, but as compared to Judo it is nothing but 1/3 of cirriculum. I don't know, I just think that BJJ is "The best pancakes ever made" all thanks to the UFC. However one of the creators of the UFC got beat at UFC 3, and lost to Matt Hughes, a wrestler.
> 
> I would love to see Karo Paryisian vs. one of the Gracie's, I don't care who in a gi match and see who won that one. I mean Karo is a great cage fighter and he stuck only to his judo roots.
> 
> Japanese JiuJitsu is amazing, like the founding Kwans in Hapkido. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese JiuJitsu is comparing an apple to an orange. It is a dumbed down version of "Favorite Techniques" by the gracies.


 
If by "one of the creators of the UFC" you mean Royce Gracie, he never actually got "beat" at UFC 3. He forfeited a match before it began due to exhaustion and possibly injury, (let's not forget that at that time they were fighting four or five times in a single night, and Ken Shamrock was also forced out due to injury) but Royce actually won his last fight there by submission (against Kimo Leopoldo). 

I think Judo is great but you must give credit where credit is due. BJJ is the ultimate on the ground.

BTW, didn't Karo get knocked the f*** out in his last fight?


----------



## Bodhisattva

matt.m said:


> Sorry sir but we must agree to diisagree. BJJ is a good art yes, but as compared to Judo it is nothing but 1/3 of cirriculum. I don't know, I just think that BJJ is "The best pancakes ever made" all thanks to the UFC. However one of the creators of the UFC got beat at UFC 3, and lost to Matt Hughes, a wrestler.
> 
> I would love to see Karo Paryisian vs. one of the Gracie's, I don't care who in a gi match and see who won that one. I mean Karo is a great cage fighter and he stuck only to his judo roots.
> 
> Japanese JiuJitsu is amazing, like the founding Kwans in Hapkido. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese JiuJitsu is comparing an apple to an orange. It is a dumbed down version of "Favorite Techniques" by the gracies.


 
Japanese JiuJitsu (Um, if you are talking about Japanese JJ, you should spell it JuJutsu, because "jiujitsu" is a brazilian rendition) is amazing if you are watching some guy practice on compliant partners.

--

And, incidentally, Karo DOESN'T stick strictly to his Judo.  

JJJ is not so amazing when you watch some guy trying to pull his moves off against a combat athlete.

The reason so many JJJ moves aren't present in BJJ is because they DON'T WORK.

You can keep doing them if you like - I'll do the things that work.


----------



## Ybot

matt.m, While I agree that there are a lot of people who, perhaps, over hype BJJ, I have to step in, because I find you have chosen to let the pendulum swing too far in the other direction in your response.  Let me respond to some of your posts (I'm taking bits from two of your previous posts on this thread):



matt.m said:


> After visiting Rodrigo Vaghi in St. L, who is a multi time world champion and 3rd dan under Rickson Gracie agreed with me that BJJ is a combat sport.  It's main focus is wait till the opponent takes you down so you can begin your magic.
> 
> Yes Judo teaches a ton of ground fighting, however they are taught as followups to the throw that took their opponent down.
> 
> For instance the following techniques are an example: Floating hip throw to ground arm bar.
> 
> Rodrigo told me himself that he doesn't teach much on how to fall, nor off balance from the standing.
> 
> Whereas in arts like hapkido and judo, if you are on the ground then you are more than likely loosing.


 
True, BJJ spends little time working takedowns.  Should we work more?  Maybe, maybe not, depends on why we are training.  I can tell you that in my experience, if I want it to go to the ground, it most likely will.  I find that the simplest stuff works on the majority of people out there.

Oh, and it's fine that in Hapkido and Judo if you end up on the ground you are probably losing, that's just not the case with BJJ. 



> The person who taught Helio was a student of the Japanese national champ as well as Jigoro Kano's student.
> 
> So really to me and from what I have seen of BJJ it is a watered down version of Traditional Kodokan Judo.





> BJJ is a good art yes, but as compared to Judo it is nothing but 1/3 of curriculum. I don't know, I just think that BJJ is "The best pancakes ever made" all thanks to the UFC. However one of the creators of the UFC got beat at UFC 3, and lost to Matt Hughes, a wrestler.


So, really to me and from what I have seen of Judo, as taught today, it is nothing more than "1/3 the curriculum" of pre-war Kodokan Judo.  How many clubs today regularly practice Judo Kata, and striking?  How many truly spend a good portion of their newaza time learning to actually finish their opponents rather than holding and escaping from pins and how to stall for the stand up.

And before you respond that there are clubs that spend time on these things, remember that there are plenty of BJJ clubs that work the things that you thing BJJ is weak at.



> I would love to see Karo Paryisian vs. one of the Gracie's, I don't care who in a gi match and see who won that one. I mean Karo is a great cage fighter and he stuck only to his judo roots.


Of course it depends on the rules, but if you let me pick any Gracie, I pick Roger, and I'm sorry, but it just wouldn't be fair.



> Japanese JiuJitsu is amazing, like the founding Kwans in Hapkido. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese JiuJitsu is comparing an apple to an orange. It is a dumbed down version of "Favorite Techniques" by the gracies.


Every Judoka has their own set of techniques they use most and that works for them.  They know these moves inside and out, know how to set them up from all kinds of places.  The best could probably write volumes on small portions of Judo's game.  That to me doesn't equate with "dumbed down".  That to me is specialization.



> I will say this with certainty that in a fight, not a cage......unless we are both in gi's, there is no blue belt on the planet that will beat me.
> 
> Sorry, just my opinion.


Being a bit arrogant aren't we now?  There are a lot of blue belts on this planet, and every man is a sum of their overall life experience, not just their BJJ training.


----------



## vankuen

Wow...lot's of die hards here.  That's good though...because you wouldn't be practicing if you didn't feel strongly about your chosen art.  

I like the way you guys discuss things without getting all stupid in your debates...it's a refreshing sight to see compared to the other forums I've been too.  (Even I get drawn into the stupidity sometimes).  

I think that in general, JJ players...be them JJJ or BJJ, will be better on the ground over Judo quite frankly because they spend all of their time there.  There is only so much time to train, and when it is all spent in one area naturally that will be your strong suit.  Judo, (not combat judo where atemi is present) will spend time doing nage and katema waza...hopefully spending time in a 50/50 fashion.  So althought the pallet will have more of a variety, it will also take longer to gain proficiency in both areas (in general) because only half the time is spent in each of those areas. 

It's similar to my studying MT, WC, and Judo simultaneously.  I have Judo days, MT days, and WC days.  If I were to spend ALL of my time in only one of those areas, my skill in that area would increase at a faster rate.  Luckily I've done the first two for years, and it doesn't take much to maintain them.  I'm _learning_ judo, and maintaining the other two arts. 

I trust that this addition will give me a more rounded training and if I need to get better on the ground, I'll have to work it more in my Judo class or with others that train in some other ground grappling like JJJ or BJJ.  But I'll see where this goes first.


----------



## vankuen

Update!  

Had another newaza class...

Great news!!!  I didn't do so hot this time!  We practiced a couple chokes from the back and an armbar from a failed choke.  Good stuff...the guys I worked with today ranged from another white belt to a yellow belt and a green belt.  All of them were very good relative to me.  The while belt I believe had some BJJ experience...he had the gi on that I've seen at another BJJ school (he had a great guard!)  and the other guys I was just too tired to do much with.  I just turtled up and let them try to submit me. 

I setup a triangle on the green belt, and actually got my foot almost locked under my knee...but I think my legs are too short and fat because I really couldn't get my legs close enough to reaaaaally lock it.  Perhaps I need to find another move.  I like triangles a lot...but I just don't think my body is suited for them.  Especially if the other has a big upper torso...big torso and stubby legs seem to not work well for triangles.


----------



## Ybot

vankuen said:


> Update!
> 
> Had another newaza class...
> 
> Great news!!!  I didn't do so hot this time!  We practiced a couple chokes from the back and an armbar from a failed choke.  Good stuff...the guys I worked with today ranged from another white belt to a yellow belt and a green belt.  All of them were very good relative to me.  The while belt I believe had some BJJ experience...he had the gi on that I've seen at another BJJ school (he had a great guard!)  and the other guys I was just too tired to do much with.  I just turtled up and let them try to submit me.
> 
> I setup a triangle on the green belt, and actually got my foot almost locked under my knee...but I think my legs are too short and fat because I really couldn't get my legs close enough to reaaaaally lock it.  Perhaps I need to find another move.  I like triangles a lot...but I just don't think my body is suited for them.  Especially if the other has a big upper torso...big torso and stubby legs seem to not work well for triangles.


Good stuff.  Don't give up on that triangle yet.  Even short legged people can get good triangles, the main issue is hip positioning.  Turn your body to the side that you have the leg over neck at a right angle to your opponent when attacking the triangle.  Usually with a little adjustment with positioning, you'll find you can lock it in.


----------



## D Dempsey

vankuen said:


> Update!
> 
> Had another newaza class...
> 
> Great news!!!  I didn't do so hot this time!  We practiced a couple chokes from the back and an armbar from a failed choke.  Good stuff...the guys I worked with today ranged from another white belt to a yellow belt and a green belt.  All of them were very good relative to me.  The while belt I believe had some BJJ experience...he had the gi on that I've seen at another BJJ school (he had a great guard!)  and the other guys I was just too tired to do much with.  I just turtled up and let them try to submit me.
> 
> I setup a triangle on the green belt, and actually got my foot almost locked under my knee...but I think my legs are too short and fat because I really couldn't get my legs close enough to reaaaaally lock it.  Perhaps I need to find another move.  I like triangles a lot...but I just don't think my body is suited for them.  Especially if the other has a big upper torso...big torso and stubby legs seem to not work well for triangles.



As long as your having fun thats all that really matters.  It will take some time before you really figure out what works the best for you.  Personally I almost never get anyone with a triangle.  I can't do Gi chokes very well do to a hand injury I got in the Army, but I catch people with arm bars all the time.  They work pretty well for me.


----------



## vankuen

Have a permenantly broken wrist myself from an injury while serving as well.  Got hardware in there now holding things together.  So I feel ya on that one--no pun intended.  

The nagewaza are relatively easy for me so far, most of them I've done before in gung fu.  For newaza right now I'm just trying to be a good rolling partner by being able to provide resistance. I'm okay till I get tired...after that it's just survival and not getting submitted or pinned. 

It's a different world--the ground.  But I know that if I stick to it, it will be as familiar to me as standup fighting is.  

But yea...so far triangles are 0-1.


----------



## Darth F.Takeda

vankuen said:


> I don't care if someone thinks it's just sport or not, as I tend to think that combat sports are more likely to provide skills that will provide a higher ratio of success in real combat application. The reason being is that combat sports constantly pressure test against resisting opponents. So sport orientated or not, the natural attributes and skills will more likely be successful than if you were taking a typical school with unrealistic training practices. It's been proven time and again. I would bet on a sport fighter every time over a "traditional" stylist any day.
> 
> That's why I started up with Judo anyway...to compliment all my standup fighting and to bridge the gap between standup and submission grappling. I also like that I can go full out with someone and not worry about either one of us really getting hurt...whereas in striking arts if we go full out...someone is likely getting hurt. Who wants to look like Ed Norton in fight club going to work? :wink2:


 
Now you've gone and done it.

Sure if every drill is with total cooperation, than the sportive option would be best, but if you go to a school that focuses on combat, not sport, than you will be better prepared for the street and home defense.

 We have several converts from local BJJ schools because they got sick of training for grappling, without any training against srikes and weapons, on their feet or the ground. All of them were good grapplers, when we rolled with in a grappling technique only framework, but were all "killed off" quickly when the perameters were more in line with life and limb fighting. Things like stalliong in the guard jhust got them punched in the nuts, fishhooked, gouged and elbowed, not to mention when unknown attackers were thrown into the fight.

 We have several active Judoka who train with us as well, and while most dont have the same level of pure groundfighting skills that the BJJ trained students have, they tend to do better durring Self Defense scenario sparring, as they tend to stay on their feet and when they hit the ground, they tend to get up and stomp on their attackers instead of make it a ground war.

 Not saying grappling skills are not important, they are and should be developed ( I love to roll and do alot) but you should train them in context to real fighting if SD is a concern for a good amount of your ground training time.

 The best thing for me and our students is to add some of the "sportive" training methods for the very attributes you have mentioned, but also train the nastier, more destructive and potentially lethal techniques in cooperative, semi cooperative and in short burst of full on immediate action drills and scenario drills, with an eye towards safty and knowing when to let go of Uke before he goes to the Hospital and you feel like the biggest jerk for hurting your partner.

 Have fun in Judo, it's a great art.

 SHUGYO!


----------



## Darth F.Takeda

Dont give up on Triangle, even when it's not fully on, you can hold him there, and smash his nose or hook and tear it, gouge his eyes, eldow the top of his head, not to mention you can deploy a knife and dispatch him if the situation warrents it.

Just let go if you feel yourself being lifted more than a foot off the ground, or you could get headslammed.


----------



## arnisador

Good pointsa bout the triangle!


----------



## RedRonin38

vankuen said:


> Have a permenantly broken wrist myself from an injury while serving as well. Got hardware in there now holding things together. So I feel ya on that one--no pun intended.
> 
> The nagewaza are relatively easy for me so far, most of them I've done before in gung fu. For newaza right now I'm just trying to be a good rolling partner by being able to provide resistance. I'm okay till I get tired...after that it's just survival and not getting submitted or pinned.
> 
> It's a different world--the ground. But I know that if I stick to it, it will be as familiar to me as standup fighting is.
> 
> But yea...so far triangles are 0-1.


 
Hi vankuen,  I'm a relaztively new Judoka (just shy of 2 years training) and the classes I attend are evenly split between ne waza and tachi waza as well.  One observation I've made is that initially I made tons of progress in ne waza, and was somewhat neutral towards tachi waza.  After some time, my tachi waza made quite a bit of progress and now I enjoy both equally.

As far as the Judo v.s BJJ thing...We play with some BJJ folks from time to time and they must be given due credit: they are ne waza specialists.  I think Judo is a great way to get a foundation in groundfighting, and is especially good for learning escapes and transitions from throwing to ne waza.  The BJJ players I've rolled with are awesome with thier tranistions and ability to chain thier submission attacks smoothly and quickly. The fine details of sumissions and chokes you can pick up from them are priceless, and will help your game.


----------



## jlhummel

Since you seem to have made your choice I wanted to point out that while Judo will teach you great throws, sweeps and ground techniques you need to remember that it is usually taught as a sport and they majorly ignore anything below the waist.  I made it to my brown belt in Judo and played in tournaments (usualy a requirement to advance) and when I was using just judo techniques I would have a hard time competing or beating a black belt but when I reverted to wrestling style (freestyle, Collegiate style, and Greco) against Judo black belts I could compete and even beat some do to the use of leg techniques on the matt and on my feet.  So dont create a blind spot for yourself when you end up on the ground or even on your feet remember your sprawls and double legs and single legs and high crotch techniques.  Otherwise your gonna love the throws and sweeps, when you bounce someone on cement or even hard ground they usually dont get up.  Judo is a great equilizer for taking on larger opponents as well.  Unlike what some might think strength is a plus but technique will overcome a stronger opponent.  Have fun!!!


----------



## Formosa Neijia

vankuen said:


> I'd like to learn a little more about Judo and how it differs from BJJ or Jiu-jitsu.
> 
> I'm looking at studying the ground game, having been doing standup for the past 25 years or so, I figure it's about time to get good at it.  I took a look at some of the Judo vids and BJJ vids on youtube and don't really see too much of a difference in things...aside from better throws in judo and perhaps more technical prowess on the ground with BJJ.
> 
> Is that about right in the most simplistic of differences?



I would choose judo as my main art and cross-train some BJJ on the side for a couple of reasons. 

First, as you mentioned, *some* schools have a macho outlook that you mentioned. I've seen it too. They talk UFC this and that nonstop. It effects the training. One school I know of with that attitude chased all the non-competitors out because they weren't "man enough" to compete. The injury rate at that school was very high.

Second, the judo ground game is more realistic IMO. They stress being on your feet most of the time and being competent enough on the ground to survive if needed. Laying on your back is a terrible idea in an altercation and I think BJJ does far too much of that. 

Judo takes hits because of its use of pins. But the one time I used ground grappling in a fight, I had to hold the guy down until the police showed up. Pinning that night was crucial. It's a valuable skill so don't over look it even if BJJ says it's a waste of time.

Third, the emphasis on throwing people hard if necessary can end a fight right there. Plus the throws blend really well with any other standup martial art you might do. 

It all comes down to what you personally value the most. In most locations I, personally, would go with judo. Unless I was anywhere near Roy Harris or one of his black belts.


----------



## Abbax8

jlhummel said:


> Since you seem to have made your choice I wanted to point out that while Judo will teach you great throws, sweeps and ground techniques you need to remember that it is usually taught as a sport and they majorly ignore anything below the waist.  I made it to my brown belt in Judo and played in tournaments (usualy a requirement to advance) and when I was using just judo techniques I would have a hard time competing or beating a black belt but when I reverted to wrestling style (freestyle, Collegiate style, and Greco) against Judo black belts I could compete and even beat some do to the use of leg techniques on the matt and on my feet.  So dont create a blind spot for yourself when you end up on the ground or even on your feet remember your sprawls and double legs and single legs and high crotch techniques.  Otherwise your gonna love the throws and sweeps, when you bounce someone on cement or even hard ground they usually dont get up.  Judo is a great equilizer for taking on larger opponents as well.  Unlike what some might think strength is a plus but technique will overcome a stronger opponent.  Have fun!!!



Actually judo has several leg picks, Marote-Gari, Kibisu-Gake, even Te-Guruma among others.

Peace

Dennis


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## zDom

Well said, Formosa Neijia. :asian:


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## Darth F.Takeda

Bodhisattva said:


> Japanese JiuJitsu (Um, if you are talking about Japanese JJ, you should spell it JuJutsu, because "jiujitsu" is a brazilian rendition) is amazing if you are watching some guy practice on compliant partners.
> 
> --
> 
> And, incidentally, Karo DOESN'T stick strictly to his Judo.
> 
> JJJ is not so amazing when you watch some guy trying to pull his moves off against a combat athlete.
> 
> The reason so many JJJ moves aren't present in BJJ is because they DON'T WORK.
> 
> You can keep doing them if you like - I'll do the things that work.


 
 Then you have seen a weak version of Japanese based Jujutsu.
We have plenty from BJJ come to our Dojo, and on the ground they are tough,if yo0u play MMA rules they are tough, but out comes a plastic knife and they become almost clueless. Double leg takedowns dont go so well on a man with a knife or a bludgeon.

 After being rubberburned about the throat and limbs and jabbed in the abdomin, one of 2 things happens. A. We never see them again. B. They sign up with us.

 BJJ is about the best system, for fighting from your back, and I do like it and crosstrain with those who are serious about it, but it's BS to say BJJ has all the moves of JJJ but they dont work. That's Bull, with anywhere from 6 months to 3 years (depends on what Gracie wrote the book your reading.) under Maeda, there was not time to learn a full JJJ curriculem.

 I give the Gracies credit for taken the few throws and good amount of groundfighting the were trained in and making what they had beter for them and their cultural enviroment. They have brought a good contribution to MA, or the general public MA, but they are not the grand ultimate and neither is any martial art.


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## Ybot

Formosa Neijia said:


> I would choose judo as my main art and cross-train some BJJ on the side for a couple of reasons.
> 
> First, as you mentioned, *some* schools have a macho outlook that you mentioned. I've seen it too. They talk UFC this and that nonstop. It effects the training. One school I know of with that attitude chased all the non-competitors out because they weren't "man enough" to compete. The injury rate at that school was very high.



Talking UFC has never effected the training at our school.  It is a bunch of guys who happen to enjoy a sport discussing it, no different than baseball, soccer, or basketball.  The vast majority of the guys I train with have no aspirations of becoming pro-fighters.

Also, from what I've seen, because of the high impact nature of Judo, injury rates are far higher in Judo than in BJJ.



> Second, the judo ground game is more realistic IMO. They stress being on your feet most of the time and being competent enough on the ground to survive if needed. Laying on your back is a terrible idea in an altercation and I think BJJ does far too much of that.
> 
> Judo takes hits because of its use of pins. But the one time I used ground grappling in a fight, I had to hold the guy down until the police showed up. Pinning that night was crucial. It's a valuable skill so don't over look it even if BJJ says it's a waste of time.



More realistic???  In what way?  In turtling up and waiting for the stand-up?

It's true that most of the advanced grappling in BJJ will never be necessary for the street.  We train it, for the love of it.  But you are far better off if you do end up on the bottom using guard than turtling up or pancaking, which becomes the default of most Judoka.  This habit is the consequence of pins, and it is this bad habit that is my only criticism of pinning.  As in your example, being able to pin someone is a great skill.



> Third, the emphasis on throwing people hard if necessary can end a fight right there. Plus the throws blend really well with any other standup martial art you might do.
> 
> It all comes down to what you personally value the most. In most locations I, personally, would go with judo. Unless I was anywhere near Roy Harris or one of his black belts.


I agree that throwing is great for self defense and is excellent for blending into other martial arts.  Judo is a great art, but certainly has it's own limitations as does BJJ.


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## Formosa Neijia

Ybot said:


> Talking UFC has never effected the training at our school.  It is a bunch of guys who happen to enjoy a sport discussing it, no different than baseball, soccer, or basketball.  The vast majority of the guys I train with have no aspirations of becoming pro-fighters.



From what I saw, it affected the mindset in some schools. They were very competitive, if not in MMA then in BJJ. Competition is good but shouldn't be overdone IMO.


> More realistic???  In what way?  In turtling up and waiting for the stand-up?


Yeah, turtling up is not the way to go. I think keeping the ground game to 30 seconds as in judo is more realistic training. I want to go for a submission or pin fairly quick. That's what I found useful in my self-defense encounters.



> It's true that most of the advanced grappling in BJJ will never be necessary for the street.  We train it, for the love of it.  But you are far better off if you do end up on the bottom using guard than turtling up or pancaking, which becomes the default of most Judoka.  This habit is the consequence of pins, and it is this bad habit that is my only criticism of pinning.  As in your example, being able to pin someone is a great skill.



Yeah, again the turtling up is something to be avoided IMO. It's just using the rules to your advantage but will get you messed up in self-defense. I guess we all have to work with the weaknesses in our arts to make them more realistic sometimes. Funny how competitions do that to arts, eh?


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## allenjp

Darth F.Takeda said:


> Then you have seen a weak version of Japanese based Jujutsu.
> We have plenty from BJJ come to our Dojo, and on the ground they are tough,if yo0u play MMA rules they are tough, but out comes a plastic knife and they become almost clueless. Double leg takedowns dont go so well on a man with a knife or a bludgeon.
> 
> After being rubberburned about the throat and limbs and jabbed in the abdomin, one of 2 things happens. A. We never see them again. B. They sign up with us.
> 
> BJJ is about the best system, for fighting from your back, and I do like it and crosstrain with those who are serious about it, but it's BS to say BJJ has all the moves of JJJ but they dont work. That's Bull, with anywhere from 6 months to 3 years (depends on what Gracie wrote the book your reading.) under Maeda, there was not time to learn a full JJJ curriculem.
> 
> I give the Gracies credit for taken the few throws and good amount of groundfighting the were trained in and making what they had beter for them and their cultural enviroment. They have brought a good contribution to MA, or the general public MA, but they are not the grand ultimate and neither is any martial art.


 
This is a point that as a practitioner of BJJ I have tried to drive home since the beginning. BJJ is an incredible fighting system under a certain set of circumstances. Namely, one on one, unarmed, and preferably, though not necessarily, on a favorable surface. This is what makes it great for sparring or sport fighting. Unfortunately many real SD situations are nothing close to those circumstances, and getting on the ground, especially on your back in a SD situation is a BAD idea. 

BUT...the reason why I train BJJ (and I train it for SD) is because it is VERY, VERY difficult to avoid getting taken down by someone who knows how, and is determined. And if you end up on the ground despite your best efforts to stay standing, you had BETTER know what you are doing down there.

As to which is better, I don't think either one is. The OP was choices for GROUND fighting, and IMHO BJJ is better for that because they spend most of there time there. It's their specialty. But Judo has a lot of practical use for the clinch phase of a fight, and if those throws can be painful on a mat, they can be devastating on concrete. They can end a fight right there.

In my BJJ class we have two Judokas, a blackbelt and a brownbelt. If you ask me, the two styles compliment each other very well. If you train both, you have the advantage of being a specialist in the clinch, AND on the ground. Good choice if you ask me...

However, if you are really training for SD at some point you are going to have to deal with weapons training, and neither one of these do that very well IMHO.


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## Darth F.Takeda

allenjp said:


> This is a point that as a practitioner of BJJ I have tried to drive home since the beginning. BJJ is an incredible fighting system under a certain set of circumstances. Namely, one on one, unarmed, and preferably, though not necessarily, on a favorable surface. This is what makes it great for sparring or sport fighting. Unfortunately many real SD situations are nothing close to those circumstances, and getting on the ground, especially on your back in a SD situation is a BAD idea.
> 
> BUT...the reason why I train BJJ (and I train it for SD) is because it is VERY, VERY difficult to avoid getting taken down by someone who knows how, and is determined. And if you end up on the ground despite your best efforts to stay standing, you had BETTER know what you are doing down there.
> 
> As to which is better, I don't think either one is. The OP was choices for GROUND fighting, and IMHO BJJ is better for that because they spend most of there time there. It's their specialty. But Judo has a lot of practical use for the clinch phase of a fight, and if those throws can be painful on a mat, they can be devastating on concrete. They can end a fight right there.
> 
> In my BJJ class we have two Judokas, a blackbelt and a brownbelt. If you ask me, the two styles compliment each other very well. If you train both, you have the advantage of being a specialist in the clinch, AND on the ground. Good choice if you ask me...
> 
> However, if you are really training for SD at some point you are going to have to deal with weapons training, and neither one of these do that very well IMHO.


 
 You have a very practicle and honest outlook. Your the kind of BJJ practitioner I love to train with, the kind where there is mutual learning, growth and respect.

 Someday I will have my own MA/Fitness center and I want our style of Jujutsu offered as well as BJJ and Judo along with MMA and FMA and I will encourage crosstraining.

 I like how our style of Jujutsu is a very well rounded Jujutsu system. Throws,takedowns, unbalancing, jointlocks/destructions, chokes, grappling, strikes against aremd and unarmed, 1 on 1 and "Oh no they brought the whole tribe!" situations are trained.
 I do ralize though that you will gravitate towards certian elements.
 Some of our guys are real good at 2-3 elements, decent at 1-3 and suck at a few, you do gravitate towards different things.
 I look to other JJ styles for specialization crosstraining.
I have learned some great stuff from BJJ that helps my ground game (I'm a rubberguard/sweep fiend), I have got better at catching moving limbs and apllying joint locks from crosstraining with a Small Circle Instructor.
I have gained better footwork, evasion and entry sklls from FMA/IMA.
 There is no one true way, lots of good ways though.

SHUGYO!
 Dylan


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## allenjp

Darth F.Takeda said:


> You have a very practicle and honest outlook. Your the kind of BJJ practitioner I love to train with, the kind where there is mutual learning, growth and respect.
> 
> Someday I will have my own MA/Fitness center and I want our style of Jujutsu offered as well as BJJ and Judo along with MMA and FMA and I will encourage crosstraining.
> 
> I like how our style of Jujutsu is a very well rounded Jujutsu system. Throws,takedowns, unbalancing, jointlocks/destructions, chokes, grappling, strikes against aremd and unarmed, 1 on 1 and "Oh no they brought the whole tribe!" situations are trained.
> I do ralize though that you will gravitate towards certian elements.
> Some of our guys are real good at 2-3 elements, decent at 1-3 and suck at a few, you do gravitate towards different things.
> I look to other JJ styles for specialization crosstraining.
> I have learned some great stuff from BJJ that helps my ground game (I'm a rubberguard/sweep fiend), I have got better at catching moving limbs and apllying joint locks from crosstraining with a Small Circle Instructor.
> I have gained better footwork, evasion and entry sklls from FMA/IMA.
> There is no one true way, lots of good ways though.
> 
> SHUGYO!
> Dylan


 
Thank you for the compliment, It's just that I find too many people get sport fighting and self defense confused. They are NOT the same thing as I am sure you well know.

I have a lot of respect for Jujutsu practitioners. I want to learn some in the future. We have a great dojo here in San Diego that combines Japanese Kenjutsu, Aiki Jujutsu, and modern self defense, along with SYSTEMA. seems like a great school and comes highly reccomended. I am kind of debating between joining this school or a Bujinkan Dojo as soon as I have the time...but unfortunately just groundwork for now.


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## allenjp

Formosa Neijia said:


> I would choose judo as my main art and cross-train some BJJ on the side for a couple of reasons.
> 
> First, as you mentioned, *some* schools have a macho outlook that you mentioned. I've seen it too. They talk UFC this and that nonstop. It effects the training. One school I know of with that attitude chased all the non-competitors out because they weren't "man enough" to compete. The injury rate at that school was very high.
> 
> Second, the judo ground game is more realistic IMO. They stress being on your feet most of the time and being competent enough on the ground to survive if needed. Laying on your back is a terrible idea in an altercation and I think BJJ does far too much of that.
> 
> Judo takes hits because of its use of pins. But the one time I used ground grappling in a fight, I had to hold the guy down until the police showed up. Pinning that night was crucial. It's a valuable skill so don't over look it even if BJJ says it's a waste of time.
> 
> Third, the emphasis on throwing people hard if necessary can end a fight right there. Plus the throws blend really well with any other standup martial art you might do.
> 
> It all comes down to what you personally value the most. In most locations I, personally, would go with judo. Unless I was anywhere near Roy Harris or one of his black belts.


 
Of course, a BJJ practitioner can pin someone too. Just because we always train with finishing techniques doesn't mean we have to use them...


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## Ybot

Formosa Neijia said:


> From what I saw, it affected the mindset in some schools. They were very competitive, if not in MMA then in BJJ. Competition is good but shouldn't be overdone IMO.


I really don't believe it has anything to do with being a MMA fan.  Not saying I doubt you on the competitiveness, though.  I have found that kind of attitude too at a few of the schools I have trained at or visited, but I think it is more because we spend a good deal of time doing "live" competitive sparing can lead to a sort of "top dog" mentality.  Also, this kind of training attracts a more competitive "type" (namely young adult males).

I will say that like any martial arts school, a BJJ academy is often the reflection of the personality, or personalities that own and operate it.  With that in mind, I feel really lucky to train at the school I am at, and invite anyone in, even if you were turned off by the "machismo" of other BJJ schools.



> Yeah, turtling up is not the way to go. I think keeping the ground game to 30 seconds as in judo is more realistic training. I want to go for a submission or pin fairly quick. That's what I found useful in my self-defense encounters.


Again, along with the positives, 30 second rule has negitives as well.  You are only encouraged to defend for 30 seconds, and not really to escape.



> Yeah, again the turtling up is something to be avoided IMO. It's just using the rules to your advantage but will get you messed up in self-defense. I guess we all have to work with the weaknesses in our arts to make them more realistic sometimes. Funny how competitions do that to arts, eh?


Yeah, and it's also funny how without competition some arts can become a bit delusional.


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## Darth F.Takeda

allenjp said:


> Thank you for the compliment, It's just that I find too many people get sport fighting and self defense confused. They are NOT the same thing as I am sure you well know.
> 
> I have a lot of respect for Jujutsu practitioners. I want to learn some in the future. We have a great dojo here in San Diego that combines Japanese Kenjutsu, Aiki Jujutsu, and modern self defense, along with SYSTEMA. seems like a great school and comes highly reccomended. I am kind of debating between joining this school or a Bujinkan Dojo as soon as I have the time...but unfortunately just groundwork for now.


 

I would advise the former and stay clear of the latter. Most Kenjutsu and AIki Jujutsu systems have clear histories and lineages, the Ninja stuff is largly reconstructed and dubious. I have trained with some, nice people but living in dream land and none were very good at fighting.

 You find AikiJujutsu and modern combatives fit nice with your BJJ, lots of similar orgins and similar movement.

 SYSTEMA has me curious. It gets put down but I saw some impressive stuff from the Systema class in NYC I watched.


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## allenjp

Darth F.Takeda said:


> I would advise the former and stay clear of the latter. Most Kenjutsu and AIki Jujutsu systems have clear histories and lineages, the Ninja stuff is largly reconstructed and dubious. I have trained with some, nice people but living in dream land and none were very good at fighting.
> 
> You find AikiJujutsu and modern combatives fit nice with your BJJ, lots of similar orgins and similar movement.
> 
> SYSTEMA has me curious. It gets put down but I saw some impressive stuff from the Systema class in NYC I watched.


 
Thanks for the advice...

as you probably know, only three of the nine systems covered in the Bujinkan are considered "ninja", the other six are samurai systems, and are probably very close to most Jujutsu I would think, I could be wrong. But I had a well respected Bujinkan instructor tell me that this other dojo's instructor was better than any Buj instructor in this area.

Unfortunately, as is often the case, the distance between me and the dojo will probably be the deciding factor anyway...


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## bootcampbj

Closeness to the school and quality of the school will of course always matter a lot.


I train BJJ primarily at the moment with a little Judo/aikido cross training.  

If you have both close and available and cost isn´t an issue, try both out and lean more towards the one you enjoy more.


 - BJ


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## Zendokan

I read this thread completely and it's becoming again a Judoka against Brazilian Jiu Jitsuka thread. 
I trained/training in both and to answer the OP his question:

The best groundgame is BJJ.
The best standup grappling is Judo

Both systems use an alive training against an resisting person, only by the rulesets there has become an difference. 
Be aware of something very important --> both are fighting sports and no self-defence systems so you won't learn anything against a knife/baseballbat attack but most fights don't include knifes/baseballbats or guns. It's likely that your attacker will be some (drunken) idiot that will fight you barehanded. And in that case these two fighting sports are MORE than enough to get the job done.

You can add a striking sport art that uses the same training principles of resisting partner, full-contact and aliveness.
I would than recommend Kyokushin Karate and/or Muay Thai.

Greetz,

Zendokan


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## Abbax8

Zendokan said:


> I read this thread completely and it's becoming again a Judoka against Brazilian Jiu Jitsuka thread.
> I trained/training in both and to answer the OP his question:
> 
> The best groundgame is BJJ.
> The best standup grappling is Judo
> 
> Both systems use an alive training against an resisting person, only by the rulesets there has become an difference.
> Be aware of something very important --> both are fighting sports and no self-defence systems so you won't learn anything against a knife/baseballbat attack but most fights don't include knifes/baseballbats or guns. It's likely that your attacker will be some (drunken) idiot that will fight you barehanded. And in that case these two fighting sports are MORE than enough to get the job done.
> 
> You can add a striking sport art that uses the same training principles of resisting partner, full-contact and aliveness.
> I would than recommend Kyokushin Karate and/or Muay Thai.
> 
> Greetz,
> 
> Zendokan



Zendokan,

       With all respect, while many Judo Clubs concentrate on the sport aspect, to say that Judo is a Fighting Sport without Self defense aspects is wrong. In fact the Go-Shin-Jutsu kata does have defense against knife attack, stick attack, etc. In addition, it is up to the instructor to show the self defense aspects of the various waza, if they choose to do so, as I do in my class.

Peace

Dennis


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## Zendokan

Abbax8 said:


> Zendokan,
> 
> With all respect, while many Judo Clubs concentrate on the sport aspect, to say that Judo is a Fighting Sport without Self defense aspects is wrong. In fact the Go-Shin-Jutsu kata does have defense against knife attack, stick attack, etc. In addition, it is up to the instructor to show the self defense aspects of the various waza, if they choose to do so, as I do in my class.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Dennis


 
Dennis, I understand your point of view, but I was comparing Judo and BJJ's self-Defence to JJJ, which nowadays is still more designed for self-defence than sport.
You also said that there are in Go-Shin-Jutsu kata knife-defence techniques, but how many train these techniques against a not complying attacker ?
And the point of my text was that Judo and BJJ are additional arts, not competatives.


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## Formosa Neijia

Abbax8 said:


> With all respect, while many Judo Clubs concentrate on the sport aspect, to say that Judo is a Fighting Sport without Self defense aspects is wrong.



I can't talk about other schools, but the mine has shown all sorts of strikes hidden in the throws that would be good for self-defense. In fact, the strikes are sometimes used as kuzushi. I'm being told that these hidden strikes get used a lot in the competitions held here in Taiwan.

For example, I was taught how to punch the stomach when grabbing the lapel low. I was taught to off-balance for osoto gari by grabbing the collar high and punching/driving my fist into the neck. 

There are numerous ways to make the throws more useful for self-defense. It isn't hard to do.


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## D Dempsey

That's a pretty good description of what would be classed as "dirty judo".  I think Jimmy Pedro did a video on it.:ultracool


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## Makalakumu

Formosa Neijia said:


> I can't talk about other schools, but the mine has shown all sorts of strikes hidden in the throws that would be good for self-defense. In fact, the strikes are sometimes used as kuzushi. I'm being told that these hidden strikes get used a lot in the competitions held here in Taiwan.
> 
> For example, I was taught how to punch the stomach when grabbing the lapel low. I was taught to off-balance for osoto gari by grabbing the collar high and punching/driving my fist into the neck.
> 
> There are numerous ways to make the throws more useful for self-defense. It isn't hard to do.


 
This is a pretty good description of Karate.  Strike to grab, grab to strike.


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## zDom

Zendokan said:


> I would than recommend Kyokushin Karate and/or Muay Thai.



Why these two?


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## Ybot

zDom said:


> Why these two?


I can't speak for Zandokan, but I can hazard a guess...  Both Kyokushin and Muy Thai train live and full contact.  They do this across the board.  I know I can go into any Kyokushin school and get my head kicked in   Which is why I avoid those schools like the plague.  I prefer grappling to getting hit in the head.


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## Zendokan

Well Ybot is dead on the center with is answer.
Since the OP is/would already be going for the grappling by training BJJ and/or Judo, he needs then training in pure striking arts to become welround.
HKD and JJJ have a balance between the soft and hard techniques and thus adding such an art to BJJ/Judo would tip the scale to much in favour of the grappling.
Because you train BJJ/Judo technicly "full-contact" it's better to train also the striking arts "full-contact".
Since Kyokushin and Muay Thai have everywhere the same standard of alive training he can pick any dojo/club and doesn't be afraid of getting an McDojo training.


Greetz,

Zendokan

PS: Ybot, it's Zendokan, not Zandokan


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