# Living The Martial Way



## PhotonGuy

Living The Martial Way by Forrest E Morgan, I find it to be a good read.


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## Chris Parker

Er… okay… anything in particular you found "good" about it? What does it address? Perhaps a more detailed/informative review could be more useful…?


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## PhotonGuy

I like how the book talks about philosophy and how it applies to the martial arts and especially how it separates martial arts from religion. All too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion. Morgan makes the distinction between religion and the martial arts. For a more complete review  Living the Martial Way Quotes by Forrest E. Morgan
And also this Interview: Forrest Morgan, Author “Living the Martial Way” (Part 1)


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I like how the book talks about philosophy and how it applies to the martial arts and especially how it separates martial arts from religion. All too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion. Morgan makes the distinction between religion and the martial arts. For a more complete review  Living the Martial Way Quotes by Forrest E. Morgan
> And also this Interview: Forrest Morgan, Author “Living the Martial Way” (Part 1)



However religion and martial arts are not separated for many people. It doesn't mean that martial arts are a religion but for many their religion is such an integral part of their lives that it touches everything they do and say. The idea that religion is in a separate box brought out for Sundays is a very Western idea, in the East there is much less separation which I think confuses many Westerners. The book is only one man's ideas and thoughts, it doesn't make it the truth.


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## Xue Sheng

I read "Living The Martial Way by Forrest E Morgan" many years ago, about 20 years ago actually. As I remember, I liked the book. I shall have to see if I still have it and possibly give it a reread. However I do not remember a discussion on religion and martial arts as being a major part of the book, but then it was 20 years ago so I may have forgotten


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> However religion and martial arts are not separated for many people. It doesn't mean that martial arts are a religion but for many their religion is such an integral part of their lives that it touches everything they do and say. The idea that religion is in a separate box brought out for Sundays is a very Western idea, in the East there is much less separation which I think confuses many Westerners. The book is only one man's ideas and thoughts, it doesn't make it the truth.


Well sure a religion might borrow a martial art or arts but that doesn't mean that just because you train in a martial art or arts that you're following any specific religion.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well sure a religion might borrow a martial art or arts but that doesn't mean that just because you train in a martial art or arts that you're following any specific religion.



It's nothing to do with a religion 'borrowing' a martial art at all. Many people believe that their belief is part of everything they do and every action they perform ( in life not just martial arts) is an act of worship. Hindus for example believe the correct action in accordance with dharma is also understood as service to humanity and to God, this will also inform their martial arts practice. Eastern beliefs such as Shinto and Buddhism are much more a way of life than the Western Christianity, so involves everything that believers do including martial arts so there is no separation of their every day actions and their beliefs.


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## Xue Sheng

Many in the east, particularly China do not compartmentalize things like we do in the west. But on the flip side of that they do not tend to emphasize things either.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> It's nothing to do with a religion 'borrowing' a martial art at all. Many people believe that their belief is part of everything they do and every action they perform ( in life not just martial arts) is an act of worship. Hindus for example believe the correct action in accordance with dharma is also understood as service to humanity and to God, this will also inform their martial arts practice. Eastern beliefs such as Shinto and Buddhism are much more a way of life than the Western Christianity, so involves everything that believers do including martial arts so there is no separation of their every day actions and their beliefs.



Well what Im saying is this, lets say there's a shintoist who trains in a martial art and as you put it, they believe that everything they do including their training in a martial art they are doing as part of their religion of Shintoism. Now lets say I train in a martial art and it can even be the same martial art that this particular shintoist trains in, that does not make me a shintoist too and it does not mean that by training in the martial art that I am engaging in a shintoist practice even if this other practitioner is using it as such.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well what Im saying is this, lets say there's a shintoist who trains in a martial art and as you put it, they believe that everything they do including their training in a martial art they are doing as part of their religion of Shintoism. Now lets say I train in a martial art and it can even be the same martial art that this particular shintoist trains in, that does not make me a shintoist too and it does not mean that by training in the martial art that I am engaging in a shintoist practice even if this other practitioner is using it as such.



Nope, still not got it.



PhotonGuy said:


> especially how it separates martial arts from religion. All too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion. Morgan makes the distinction between religion and the martial arts. For a more complete review



You stated that it separates arts from religion as if martial arts is a religion, it isn't, no one thinks it is, what they do however is bring their beliefs into everything they do including martial arts, as XS says they don't compartmentalise. Then you say that people think of martial arts as a religion....no one does as far as I've seen. You also say they think of it as something to do with religion, again no. Then you say that Morgan makes the distinction between religion and martial arts only no one really believes that martial arts of any type is a religion.
What you are don't get is that many people's beliefs and their everyday actions are bound together, they don't do martial arts as a religious practice at all, but will perform their martial arts actions in a way that confirms their beliefs as they will do in everything from making a meal, to washing their clothes, to doing their everyday jobs.


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## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> I like how the book talks about philosophy and how it applies to the martial arts and especially how it separates martial arts from religion. All too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion. Morgan makes the distinction between religion and the martial arts.



Cool, thanks for that. My main point was that "it was good" isn't much of a conversation starter… this is much better.

I'm not going to comment much on your take on the book, but will ask if the idea that "all too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion" was something that you thought, or you took from the book (and Morgan's take on things).



PhotonGuy said:


> For a more complete review  Living the Martial Way Quotes by Forrest E. Morgan
> And also this Interview: Forrest Morgan, Author “Living the Martial Way” (Part 1)



Okay… when I asked for a more detailed review, I meant from you, not a link to others. I was curious as to what was important in the book to you, partially as insight into the book, and partially as insight into your thought process and value system (just something I do, really…). That said, the links were interesting… going beyond them, personally, I'm not sure I'd like the book that much… Morgan strikes me as someone (in the book, at least…) who is a bit too enamoured with an overly romanticised view of martial arts, warriorship, and the history found therein. I tend to prefer to listen to people who have a wider understanding.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well sure a religion might borrow a martial art or arts but that doesn't mean that just because you train in a martial art or arts that you're following any specific religion.



We'll get to this, but it really will depend on what art you're talking about (which is part of what I mean when I say Morgan doesn't have a wide enough view to be of much interest to me).



PhotonGuy said:


> Well what Im saying is this, lets say there's a shintoist who trains in a martial art and as you put it, they believe that everything they do including their training in a martial art they are doing as part of their religion of Shintoism.



Interesting example, as I can't see any way that it can work in that direction… however, the opposite can certainly be true… 



PhotonGuy said:


> Now lets say I train in a martial art and it can even be the same martial art that this particular shintoist trains in, that does not make me a shintoist too and it does not mean that by training in the martial art that I am engaging in a shintoist practice even if this other practitioner is using it as such.



If the practice is based in (or is specifically related to) Shinto practices, then yes, you are engaging in a Shinto practice… even if you're largely unaware of it. And, if you're in anyway experienced or exposed to classical Japanese arts, there's a good chance you've engaged in Shinto practice in some way already… 



Tez3 said:


> Nope, still not got it.



To be fair, Tez, he's not that far off… what he's discussing is just not as applicable in Western religious contexts… of course, I get the feeling that you're talking at crossed purposes, mainly due to a potential confusion in PhotonGuy's initial phrasing of his comments… 



Tez3 said:


> You stated that it separates arts from religion as if martial arts is a religion, it isn't, no one thinks it is,



Now, that's not strictly true at all, really. Shaolin Monks are going to be the go-to for many people (although there are both religious and secular monks, with the secular usually just there for the martial arts side of things, and the religious ones there for both)… however, I personally would look to systems such as Shorinji Kenpo, developed by Doshin So as a way of spreading his particular take on Buddhism, to the point that all practice is considered a religious act, and their form of rehearsed "fights" being described as a form of prayer, or offering in a very religious sense… then we have many classical systems, such as Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (who go so far as to have Shinto in their name… it translates (loosely, but accurately) as "The Truly and Correctly Transmitted From Heaven System of Shinto Martial Arts of the Katori Shrine"). Shinto Ryu (it's proper shortened name… it happens to be the Shinto Ryu associated with the Katori Shrine, as opposed to the Kashima Shinto Ryu, or other Shinto systems) is filled with religious (Shinto) aspects… some of the Iai, for example, are actually used in Shinto exorcisms and spell castings. Musashi Miyamoto once wrote "Pay respect to Buddha and the Gods, but do not rely on them" with regard to religion in martial arts… however his devotion to Buddhism late in his life means that it's said that you cannot truly and fully understand his writings (such as the Gorin no Sho) without a deep knowledge of the Buddhist Sutras (one reason some were written in hiragana, rather than kanji).

In Japan, Embu (martial demonstrations) are often done at shrines and temples… not because they're very pretty places, but because it's quite literally a form of offering to the deities/spirits etc who inhabit such places. Weapons are left as votive offerings (many examples of over-sized weapons, initially thought to have been actually used, were in reality simply offerings to shrines and such… weapons of that stature would be impractical, at the least, to actually wield). For this reason, embu are done in "your Sunday best"… and often start (and end) with religious ceremonies. The following clip shows incredibly well the level that religious ceremonies and aspect are integrated into such an event, showing the opening prayer/purification ceremony (note the double clap, a very Shinto thing to do, and something found in many classical Japanese arts). The gent in white with the sword at the beginning and end is not performing Iaido… it's a ceremonial/religious offering centred in Shinto practice. And, of course, the rest of the embu is just great to watch...






Then we get systems such as SandanChris' here… his very Christian Kempo fellowship (seems to be something that crops up in the US, Christian Martial Arts…) is highly based in his religious understanding and ideals….

Now, none of these make the art itself a religion (well… the Bujinkan was nearly made into a religion, largely for tax purposes, a few years back…), but the arts are a religious expression in many cases… which does make that martial art at least part of a religion and it's approach to interacting with it's followers. It's the same way a Church or Synagogue isn't a religion… nor are the rituals found, followed, and engaged in there… but they are part of the expression of the religion itself.



Tez3 said:


> what they do however is bring their beliefs into everything they do including martial arts, as XS says they don't compartmentalise.



"They"? People? Xue was speaking specifically (and generally, which is a cool trick when you can do it) about Asian cultures there… as a juxtaposition to Western ideals and focus'. For Westerners, it's far more common to compartmentalise… which means that here, I am a religious person, there, I am a husband/father/son/daughter/wife/mother, there I am a worker, there I am a student, there I am a martial artist, and so on. Now, when there is a high value set of priorities (commonly an uncompromising set at that) that over-rules all others, that's when you get people (Westerners) "bring(ing) their beliefs into everything they do"… and we tend to call them extremists when it gets too carried away… balance is important...



Tez3 said:


> Then you say that people think of martial arts as a religion....no one does as far as I've seen. You also say they think of it as something to do with religion, again no.



With PhotonGuy's seeming inability to separate his own thoughts from those that he's read/seen/heard expressed by others, I'm not so sure he wasn't more quoting Morgan there… I'm waiting to hear on that… 



Tez3 said:


> Then you say that Morgan makes the distinction between religion and martial arts only no one really believes that martial arts of any type is a religion.



See above… some specifically are… 



Tez3 said:


> What you are don't get is that many people's beliefs and their everyday actions are bound together, they don't do martial arts as a religious practice at all, but will perform their martial arts actions in a way that confirms their beliefs as they will do in everything from making a meal, to washing their clothes, to doing their everyday jobs.



True for some, not for all… 

Personally, I find it rather ironic that Morgan is apparently taking such pains to separate them… while at the same time, the entire tome reads like a sermon, a religious gospel on "real martial arts"… an almost evangelical dictate on what people have to do to live up to his ideal of what a "warrior" is, and how to be one… honestly, in the book he largely appears to make warriorship and martial arts into his personal religion… and is wanting to sway others to his cause. But you know what they say, there is no zealot like a convert… which Morgan certainly was…


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## Xue Sheng

Chris Parker said:


> "They"? People? Xue was speaking specifically (and generally, which is a cool trick when you can do it) about Asian cultures there… as a juxtaposition to Western ideals and focus'. For Westerners, it's far more common to compartmentalise… which means that here, I am a religious person, there, I am a husband/father/son/daughter/wife/mother, there I am a worker, there I am a student, there I am a martial artist, and so on. Now, when there is a high value set of priorities (commonly an uncompromising set at that) that over-rules all others, that's when you get people (Westerners) "bring(ing) their beliefs into everything they do"… and we tend to call them extremists when it gets too carried away… balance is important...



Not sure what you are saying here in reference to "which is a cool trick when you can do it" but what I am trying to say here is that many, (and yes I am talking mostly about the Chinese side of things) do not go to martial arts for religion in China nor do they expect religion. Shaolin is a bit different, but yet one can study at Shaolin and not be a Buddhist and one can be a full blown monk from Shaolin and you can train with him and he will not teach Buddhism, same can be said of Wudang and Taoism, but yet, it can be said that  Buddhism and Taoism are in everything that shifu does 

However in the west, and much of this is based on a translation error, (or misunderstanding) many people tend to go to CMA looking for spirituality and/or Buddhism or Taoism and your average Shifu is not there to be your religious or spiritual guide. Been in CMA for over 20 years and trained with multiple teachers form China and I have yet to find one who discusses anything like spirituality, had one laugh about it once when students got into a discussion about it, but never has one attempted to teach, or discuss it. Not even in Taijiquan. The issue comes from the translation of 'Shen' which translates as Spirit and that gets changed to Spirituality in the West. However to the Chinese 'Shen' is mind which is talking about mental health, and mental focus, not spirituality.

But as for the "I am a religious person, there, I am a husband/father/son/daughter/wife/mother, there I am a worker, there I am a student, there I am a martial artist"...exactly, Yin and Yang are equal and all part of the same thing, neither has dominion over the other nor is one more important than the other. It is just what you are. Its like I have a Circulatory system, a Digestive system, a Lymphatic system, a Muscular system, a Nervous system, etc. It is all the same body and as long as it is healthy its all good.


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## Tez3

Chris I would have been much more specific but frankly that's a waste of time because the OP can't or won't take what others say as being anywhere near the truth if it contradicts what he says hence my generalistions. I'm Jewish, everything I do in my everyday is what some might call 'religious' including martial arts, it's about how one acts and behaves all the time. Everyday life for a Jew is hardly the stuff of extremists.  When I say no one believes martial arts are a religion I mean that no-one worships martial arts, no one prays to karate or Judo, says prayers of thanks to TKD or prays that JKD send money. Martial arts may be a religious act or an expression of religion but they aren't worshipped or deified in themselves which is how I would define a religion.


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## Chris Parker

Hey Xue,

Yeah, I followed (and completely agree with your explanation, obviously!). What I was referring to when I said "cool trick when you can do it" was to speak both specifically and generally about something at the one time… paradoxes are just fun!

Hi Tez,

Yeah, I got that as well… but this is me, after all, and any excuse to trot out one of these videos (or offer clarification of some of the lesser-realised aspects of my arts), and I'm going to take it! I agree that PhotonGuy doesn't really seem able to differentiate between sources, and once an idea is there, it's hard to dislodge it… which is why I think some of his ideas expressed in the thread are more simply his recitation of what he remembers from the book itself.


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## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not going to comment much on your take on the book, but will ask if the idea that "all too often people think of martial arts as a religion or at least that it has something to do with religion" was something that you thought, or you took from the book (and Morgan's take on things).


I took it from the book.




Chris Parker said:


> Okay… when I asked for a more detailed review, I meant from you, not a link to others. I was curious as to what was important in the book to you, partially as insight into the book, and partially as insight into your thought process and value system (just something I do, really…). That said, the links were interesting… going beyond them, personally, I'm not sure I'd like the book that much… Morgan strikes me as someone (in the book, at least…) who is a bit too enamoured with an overly romanticised view of martial arts, warriorship, and the history found therein. I tend to prefer to listen to people who have a wider understanding.


I like how Morgan differentiates between martial arts and religion and the overall philosophy he presents such as to live every day as if its your last. I also like his description of shugyo and its a practice I sometimes take on. There is many other stuff I like about the book but that's what I can think of offhand. To mention all the other stuff I would have to reread the book.



Chris Parker said:


> If the practice is based in (or is specifically related to) Shinto practices, then yes, you are engaging in a Shinto practice… even if you're largely unaware of it. And, if you're in anyway experienced or exposed to classical Japanese arts, there's a good chance you've engaged in Shinto practice in some way already…


So if somebody were to train in American boxing would they necessarily be engaged in Christian practices somehow? Since American boxing originated in the USA and Christianity is the main religion in the USA.

Lets say I throw a sidekick, by doing so, by making such a move with my body and foot am I somehow paying tribute to a Shinto god or engaging in some kind of Shinto practice?



Chris Parker said:


> Now, that's not strictly true at all, really. Shaolin Monks are going to be the go-to for many people (although there are both religious and secular monks, with the secular usually just there for the martial arts side of things, and the religious ones there for both)… however, I personally would look to systems such as Shorinji Kenpo, developed by Doshin So as a way of spreading his particular take on Buddhism, to the point that all practice is considered a religious act, and their form of rehearsed "fights" being described as a form of prayer, or offering in a very religious sense… then we have many classical systems, such as Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (who go so far as to have Shinto in their name… it translates (loosely, but accurately) as "The Truly and Correctly Transmitted From Heaven System of Shinto Martial Arts of the Katori Shrine"). Shinto Ryu (it's proper shortened name… it happens to be the Shinto Ryu associated with the Katori Shrine, as opposed to the Kashima Shinto Ryu, or other Shinto systems) is filled with religious (Shinto) aspects… some of the Iai, for example, are actually used in Shinto exorcisms and spell castings. Musashi Miyamoto once wrote "Pay respect to Buddha and the Gods, but do not rely on them" with regard to religion in martial arts… however his devotion to Buddhism late in his life means that it's said that you cannot truly and fully understand his writings (such as the Gorin no Sho) without a deep knowledge of the Buddhist Sutras (one reason some were written in hiragana, rather than kanji).
> 
> In Japan, Embu (martial demonstrations) are often done at shrines and temples… not because they're very pretty places, but because it's quite literally a form of offering to the deities/spirits etc who inhabit such places. Weapons are left as votive offerings (many examples of over-sized weapons, initially thought to have been actually used, were in reality simply offerings to shrines and such… weapons of that stature would be impractical, at the least, to actually wield). For this reason, embu are done in "your Sunday best"… and often start (and end) with religious ceremonies. The following clip shows incredibly well the level that religious ceremonies and aspect are integrated into such an event, showing the opening prayer/purification ceremony (note the double clap, a very Shinto thing to do, and something found in many classical Japanese arts). The gent in white with the sword at the beginning and end is not performing Iaido… it's a ceremonial/religious offering centred in Shinto practice. And, of course, the rest of the embu is just great to watch...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then we get systems such as SandanChris' here… his very Christian Kempo fellowship (seems to be something that crops up in the US, Christian Martial Arts…) is highly based in his religious understanding and ideals….
> 
> Now, none of these make the art itself a religion (well… the Bujinkan was nearly made into a religion, largely for tax purposes, a few years back…), but the arts are a religious expression in many cases… which does make that martial art at least part of a religion and it's approach to interacting with it's followers. It's the same way a Church or Synagogue isn't a religion… nor are the rituals found, followed, and engaged in there… but they are part of the expression of the religion itself.
> 
> 
> 
> "They"? People? Xue was speaking specifically (and generally, which is a cool trick when you can do it) about Asian cultures there… as a juxtaposition to Western ideals and focus'. For Westerners, it's far more common to compartmentalise… which means that here, I am a religious person, there, I am a husband/father/son/daughter/wife/mother, there I am a worker, there I am a student, there I am a martial artist, and so on. Now, when there is a high value set of priorities (commonly an uncompromising set at that) that over-rules all others, that's when you get people (Westerners) "bring(ing) their beliefs into everything they do"… and we tend to call them extremists when it gets too carried away… balance is important...
> 
> 
> 
> With PhotonGuy's seeming inability to separate his own thoughts from those that he's read/seen/heard expressed by others, I'm not so sure he wasn't more quoting Morgan there… I'm waiting to hear on that…
> 
> 
> 
> See above… some specifically are…
> 
> 
> 
> True for some, not for all…
> 
> Personally, I find it rather ironic that Morgan is apparently taking such pains to separate them… while at the same time, the entire tome reads like a sermon, a religious gospel on "real martial arts"… an almost evangelical dictate on what people have to do to live up to his ideal of what a "warrior" is, and how to be one… honestly, in the book he largely appears to make warriorship and martial arts into his personal religion… and is wanting to sway others to his cause. But you know what they say, there is no zealot like a convert… which Morgan certainly was…



Morgan is aware that people sometimes mix religion with the martial arts and he mentions that in his book and he's against that. According to Morgan, religion and martial arts should be kept separate. Also Morgan claims that martial arts originated not as religious practices but as methods of warfare. Even those martial arts that originated in temples he says originated for warfare and defense since temples were also political centers and that many of the political functions went on in the temples including the formation and training of the military. Those are Morgan's claims not mine.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> So if somebody were to train in American boxing would they necessarily be engaged in Christian practices somehow? Since American boxing originated in the USA and Christianity is the main religion in the USA.



American boxing? So how's that different from 'boxing' then?



PhotonGuy said:


> Lets say I throw a sidekick, by doing so, by making such a move with my body and foot am I somehow paying tribute to a Shinto god or engaging in some kind of Shinto practice?



Argh. I told you so......................  I knew this was going to be said. I have no words, Chris, all yours.



PhotonGuy said:


> Morgan is aware that people sometimes mix religion with the martial arts and he mentions that in his book and he's against that. According to Morgan, religion and martial arts should be kept separate. Also Morgan claims that martial arts originated not as religious practices but as methods of warfare. Even those martial arts that originated in temples he says originated for warfare and defense since temples were also political centers and that many of the political functions went on in the temples including the formation and training of the military. Those are Morgan's claims not mine



I like Morgan rum but Pussers is better.


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## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> I took it from the book.



Okay. Can you tell me your view, then? Do you agree? If so, why? If not, why not?



PhotonGuy said:


> I like how Morgan differentiates between martial arts and religion



Which is kinda like differentiating between chocolate ice-cream and cats… I mean… I like them both, but that doesn't mean they have much in common… or have any real relationship… 



PhotonGuy said:


> and the overall philosophy he presents such as to live every day as if its your last.



I've come across that idea a fair bit, and, honestly, that's what I mean when I talk about overly romanticising the ideas of warriorship… as, while it's one interpretation, it's not really what Yamamoto was talking about in Hagakure… although it is a common misinterpretation of it….



PhotonGuy said:


> I also like his description of shugyo and its a practice I sometimes take on.



I've seen a couple of accounts of his take on "shugyo"… what can you say about what his description is, as it doesn't match my understanding of the term?



PhotonGuy said:


> There is many other stuff I like about the book but that's what I can think of offhand. To mention all the other stuff I would have to reread the book.



Okay.



PhotonGuy said:


> So if somebody were to train in American boxing would they necessarily be engaged in Christian practices somehow? Since American boxing originated in the USA and Christianity is the main religion in the USA.



Er… no. Not at all, in fact. Now, if the Marquis of Queensbury, when coming up with the rules that form the basis of modern boxing, formulated them incorporating Christian iconography, ritual, and so on, sure… but that's not what you describe, nor is it the reality.



PhotonGuy said:


> Lets say I throw a sidekick, by doing so, by making such a move with my body and foot am I somehow paying tribute to a Shinto god or engaging in some kind of Shinto practice?



Huh? I'm not sure you quite get what is meant by a Shinto practice here… cause, gotta say, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. There is no individual action that is "Shinto" or not… but a particular action can used as part of a Shinto ritual.

I'll put it this way. Kneeling, clapping, and bowing are single actions by themselves. None of them are one religion or another… but, at the start of many classical Japanese martial arts, there is an opening ceremony (and sometimes also used as a "closing" one), whereby the practitioners kneel, hold their hands together, and clap twice, then bow, raise up, clap again, and bow again (this is one form, there are variations depending on the system itself).

This ritual is often done simply as a "this is how we start a class" ceremony, used as a gateway to get into the mindset of training… which is fine… but it's really a Shinto ritual designed to scare away dangerous (evil) spirits (the first two claps), and awaken the protective ones (the last clap). And that's the thing… a religious ritual is not based on the movements, but on the intention and purpose of the actions themselves. 

So no, simply throwing a side kick is not anything like "paying tribute to a Shinto god" (hmm… they're not really "gods", more spirits of nature around you), as it's got no purpose or intention related to it.



PhotonGuy said:


> Morgan is aware that people sometimes mix religion with the martial arts and he mentions that in his book and he's against that.



Why? I'm genuinely curious as to why that would be a bad thing… if it helps someone in their training, or in their day-to-day approach to life, what's the downside? And, more importantly, what do you think? Are you against it (if it actually happens the way Morgan presents it)? Why or why not?

Bear in mind, I'm not asking to frustrate you, I'm genuinely wanting to know what you think… not what you read and regurgitated.



PhotonGuy said:


> According to Morgan, religion and martial arts should be kept separate.



That will depend entirely on both the art and the practitioner, I feel… but what do you think? Should they necessarily be kept separate in all ways, or can they live side by side happily in some way?



PhotonGuy said:


> Also Morgan claims that martial arts originated not as religious practices but as methods of warfare.



Again, it depends entirely on the art. The aforementioned Shorinji Kenpo was very much designed from the get-go as religious expression. Bagua was designed to be an expression of the I-Ching (if you want to think of that in religious terms… although it's real far more philosophical than religious, particularly from a Western perspective).



PhotonGuy said:


> Even those martial arts that originated in temples he says originated for warfare and defense since temples were also political centers and that many of the political functions went on in the temples including the formation and training of the military. Those are Morgan's claims not mine.



And there is some basis for that in Japanese historical arts, but it's not the case across the board… and Morgan would do well to remember that. To be honest, his background is not that significant, nor is his reading or research… his book is largely based on his personal views, rather than properly researched historical records… as he tends to rely on singular sources, and take much of what he hears on face value. That doesn't mean his views aren't valid, but there's a fair bit more to it than he realises…


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## Hyoho

PhotonGuy said:


> Well sure a religion might borrow a martial art or arts but that doesn't mean that just because you train in a martial art or arts that you're following any specific religion.



I do. What I do is inexorably interwoven in Buddhist precepts. The only difference being my founder was not too keen on priests as like many religions there are many bigots that do not practice what they preach.


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## Tez3

Hyoho said:


> What I do is inexorably interwoven in Buddhist precepts



I tried explaining this to PG before and the bit you quoted from him is what he replied. It's not just martial arts some beliefs are interwoven with, it's all aspects of life but he thinks religions 'borrow' martial arts.


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## Hyoho

Well religion gives us a set of ground rules in life. Some are great until you add the twisted human element. 

To quote my founder in translation I did:  As long as we have our lives and we are on this earth we have to try and create for ourselves a wonderful peaceful life. In order to do that we must have peace of mind and a strong sense of morality. But considering the history of morality we also need great strength. We therefore train in a martial way for the security and peace of our countries.

The maxim of practice is based on: The sword is the heart. If the heart is not correct our sword is not right either. If one wishes to learn the sword one must study the matters of our heart first.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Chris I would have been much more specific but frankly that's a waste of time because the OP can't or won't take what others say as being anywhere near the truth if it contradicts what he says hence my generalistions. I'm Jewish, everything I do in my everyday is what some might call 'religious' including martial arts, it's about how one acts and behaves all the time. Everyday life for a Jew is hardly the stuff of extremists.  When I say no one believes martial arts are a religion I mean that no-one worships martial arts, no one prays to karate or Judo, says prayers of thanks to TKD or prays that JKD send money. Martial arts may be a religious act or an expression of religion but they aren't worshipped or deified in themselves which is how I would define a religion.



So everything you do including martial arts you claim to apply your religion to it somehow. I never said other otherwise. I don't know enough about Judaism to know how you would apply it to martial arts or if you're training in the martial arts for religious reasons along with everything else you do but if that's what you say than I am not going to argue against that.


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## Tez3

Religion isn't 'applied' to martial arts and you don't train martial arts for religious purposes. The way you live your whole life, everything you do should be done in such a way that it reflects your beliefs. it's not about compartmenting everything you do, it's about behaving the say way everything you go and in everything you do, many religions have this. In Hinduism for example *everything* you do should be as an act of worship.


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## Hyoho

Religions/philosophies gives a human beings a set of core values. The martial way teaches us to defend/attack and kill people. If we do not have some of those core values even if we did not learn them from religion what we do just becomes barbaric. 

What differs is the fact that a lot of Asia works on a 'shame society' basis. You should fully responsible for your own actions and cannot use religion as a crutch. 

If we pray it's to to the spirit of our founders/ancestors. I see little point in trying to mix Western/North African ideas with what is essentially Asian


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## Hyoho

Tez3 said:


> Eastern beliefs such as Shinto and Buddhism are much more a way of life than the Western Christianity, so involves everything that believers do including martial arts so there is no separation of their every day actions and their beliefs.



 I would strongly disagree with having been ordained in Buddhist sect and practicing Budo for most of my life. Your average Japanese only comes in contact concerning coming of age, marriage and death. However for those that actually practice to a high degree there is little written that does not draw from confucian/buddhist precepts. Doesn't the concept of Christianity come from North Africa?


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## Tez3

Hyoho said:


> You should fully responsible for your own actions and cannot use religion as a crutch.



This is how human behaviour is looked upon in Judaism, it's down to you. There is the Law, whether you follow it is up to you as free will is given, how you behave is up to you. There is little 'worship' in Judaism, it's about how you behave so that has implications in everything you do. In martial arts it could be something like sharing a drink with someone who forgot to bring one, helping a beginner with something, being respectful towards people and the fixtures and fittings in the dojo, replacing the toilet the roll so the person after you has some , very small simple things that inform our lives so that we act in a way that benefits others rather than spiteful things which detract from you as a person.


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## Tez3

Hyoho said:


> I would strongly disagree with having been ordained in Buddhist sect and practicing Budo for most of my life. Your average Japanese only comes in contact concerning coming of age, marriage and death. However for those that actually practice to a high degree there is little written that does not draw from confucian/buddhist precepts. Doesn't the concept of Christianity come from North Africa?



Japanese as you say but I have Nepalese, Thai and Indian friends for whom Buddhism is very much a way of life. I know little about Christianity so am not the one to comment of it's origins but I will say that for most it is very much a Sunday only thing and doesn't permeate into everyday life the way Eastern religions do.


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## Hyoho

In general the Japanese are very pragmatic stating god is everywhere. They observe shito rights for children, get married in a chapel. Then as they age and wish to make peace they observe Buddhism. 

Buddhism in Japan has many educational establishments as this was originally the foundation for education but mainly is the "Dying trade". This is why people like the samurai identified with it by serving one's master and also leaving this world when he did. 

To practice budo and to also read it you are bound by Kanji that have onyomi and kunyomi (Confucian and Buddhist meanings).

Few great founders have left written teachings to coincide with practice in Japan. Practicing the physical side of things only take you up to a certain point. I you have that philosophy it's best to try and use it to reach and understanding of what you do.


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## Deleted member 34973

I work hard everyday, to ensure that religion does not infiltrate my training and especially with my daily life.

With that said, I do believe some systems where created out of religious views. But the martial arts as a religion itself, no sir I do not think that it is. IMO


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## Tez3

Guthrie said:


> I work hard everyday, to ensure that religion does not infiltrate my training and especially with my daily life.
> 
> With that said, I do believe some systems where created out of religious views. But the martial arts as a religion itself, no sir I do not think that it is. IMO



Well there's religion and there's faiths, if you have neither there's no reason for them to touch you at all. For others their faith informs everything they do from eating, washing, working, hobbies etc. However Western beliefs ( I don't include Islam or Judaism as western beliefs btw) have a very different outlook, they seem to shout more, pray louder and want to inflict their beliefs on others far more, it's much more in your face than many other religions. for some of us, out faith is about doing small kindnesses when we can, being charitable, being good people, it's not about worship.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Nope, still not got it.
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that it separates arts from religion as if martial arts is a religion, it isn't, no one thinks it is, what they do however is bring their beliefs into everything they do including martial arts, as XS says they don't compartmentalise. Then you say that people think of martial arts as a religion....no one does as far as I've seen. You also say they think of it as something to do with religion, again no. Then you say that Morgan makes the distinction between religion and martial arts only no one really believes that martial arts of any type is a religion.
> What you are don't get is that many people's beliefs and their everyday actions are bound together, they don't do martial arts as a religious practice at all, but will perform their martial arts actions in a way that confirms their beliefs as they will do in everything from making a meal, to washing their clothes, to doing their everyday jobs.


Actually, in the US, there are Christains who won't do Easternn arts, because they believe them to be inherently religious (and contrary to Christian doctrine).  This is the viewpoint addressed in the book, and what Photonguy is referring to, I think.

Because of this, there are "Christian Karate" schools around here.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I tried explaining this to PG before and the bit you quoted from him is what he replied. It's not just martial arts some beliefs are interwoven with, it's all aspects of life but he thinks religions 'borrow' martial arts.


Some actually do (see my previous post).


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## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Some actually do (see my previous post).



They don't turn martial arts into a religion though and worship it which is what I mean.


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## Buka

I like the term "The Martial Way". It probably means different things to all of us. And I imagine anyone who runs a dojo does so in their own particular way, teaching values they learned, or values they deem important to their students and life in general. That can be kind of scary, I suppose, let's hope they get it right and it comes from the heart.

If it's a fighting dojo, there better be a martial way and martial values taught.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> They don't turn martial arts into a religion though and worship it which is what I mean.


No, they don't. But some believe it is religious, that things like the bowing are prayerful rituals that violate Christian religious practices. It's odd, but it happens.

Oh, and I even met one guy (trained with him for a while before he left the school) who actually did see it as a religion. I can't even really explain it, because when he talked about it, he made absolutely no sense. I believe he was actually delusional.


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## Deleted member 34973

Tez3 said:


> Well there's religion and there's faiths, if you have neither there's no reason for them to touch you at all. For others their faith informs everything they do from eating, washing, working, hobbies etc. However Western beliefs ( I don't include Islam or Judaism as western beliefs btw) have a very different outlook, they seem to shout more, pray louder and want to inflict their beliefs on others far more, it's much more in your face than many other religions. for some of us, out faith is about doing small kindnesses when we can, being charitable, being good people, it's not about worship.


Great, to me they are ALL negative aspects of life and have no real base in reality. But Islam, Judaism and christianity, I classify as the same religions just different sects. All those things you mentioned can and has been done without religion. Really though, I don't care what you believe in. The only thing I am against is funding any theocratic based government. 
But I do not want to get into a theological debate and is why I do not have a facebook. 
If you find value in your belief, great.
Me I prefer to believe in myself above the gods.


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## Tez3

Guthrie said:


> Great, to me they are ALL negative aspects of life and have no real base in reality. But Islam, Judaism and christianity, I classify as the same religions just different sects. All those things you mentioned can and has been done without religion. Really though, I don't care what you believe in. The only thing I am against is funding any theocratic based government.
> But I do not want to get into a theological debate and is why I do not have a facebook.
> If you find value in your belief, great.
> Me I prefer to believe in myself above the gods.



I'm sorry but Christianity and Judaism are not at all the same however much people like to think they are. it's a common misconception that many think they know what Judaism is but on closer inspection they find it very different from what they thought so before you dismiss and patronise perhaps you should actually find out. There is actually so little in common with Christianity that you are acutally insulting us to say we are just different sects.  perhaps you'd like to inform yourself a little more before being so dismissive and nasty about it.


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## Hyoho

Perhap faith is a better description than religion.Buddhism is more of a philosophy religion anyway. Although if your original teacher in that particular dojo has passed on, one puts ones hand together in respect to his spirit before and after practice. There are common values in faith and MA. One could completely divorce ones faith from it but I dont think buddhist monks would be too happy about that.

My students are deshi (disciples). Living in the help wash, cook, clean, and more most of the day train from first light until dusk. I know it sounds a bit like the old Kung Fu series but thats the way we do it. Gashuku (live in practice and study) in a monk like manner is common in Japan.

Nothing we do is "In the name of God'. Its based on self discipline to try and make us better people.

What my founder said about one of the schools I teach is in my sig. 'If you cant learn the heart first dont even pick up a sword.'

After a lifetime of study. With all the people I have met over the years from students to headmasters I have met good and bad. Many years ago I perhaps thought that MA was some magical method of self improvement and attainment . What I have found out in reality is that the have to put the heart in there yourself and than some people in arts just dont have it and never will.

I just dont see any relationship between Christianity and Budo. Its about taking full responsibility for your own actions, not praying for forgiveness. There is no heaven and hell in M.A.


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## Deleted member 34973

Tez3 said:


> I'm sorry but Christianity and Judaism are not at all the same however much people like to think they are. it's a common misconception that many think they know what Judaism is but on closer inspection they find it very different from what they thought so before you dismiss and patronise perhaps you should actually find out. There is actually so little in common with Christianity that you are acutally insulting us to say we are just different sects.  perhaps you'd like to inform yourself a little more before being so dismissive and nasty about it.


Zero tolerance...so it will do no good. Have a great day.


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## Gerry Seymour

Guthrie said:


> Zero tolerance...so it will do no good. Have a great day.


Zero tolerance of what, precisely? So far, Tez has only put forth some explanations of her views, and an attempt to distinguish Judaism from Christianity (which I see as divergences from the same root, whatever that means).

If you have no tolerance for others mentioning their religion, then it would be best not to step into a discussion where they are in play. If you have no tolerance for people defending their views, perhaps you could express your own with some moderation.

I'm entirely areligious, so I'm not bothered by your attitude on religion. Not my fight. But you stepped into a discussion in a fairly un-civil manner.


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## Hyoho

gpseymour said:


> No, they don't. But some believe it is religious, that things like the bowing are prayerful rituals that violate Christian religious practices. It's odd, but it happens.
> 
> Oh, and I even met one guy (trained with him for a while before he left the school) who actually did see it as a religion. I can't even really explain it, because when he talked about it, he made absolutely no sense. I believe he was actually delusional.


 I vaguely remember a situation like that some years ago. I guess some people need to study Japanese customs. Bowing in Japan is like shaking hands. You will never be able to bow as deeply as an old lady who in her frailty venerates her fellow man to help her in everything.


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## Tez3

Hyoho said:


> Its about taking full responsibility for your own actions, not praying for forgiveness. There is no heaven and hell in M.A.



This is how Judaism is, we don't do things in the name of God but to become better people, Ethics and the Law are more important parts of the belief than worshipping or spirituality. The idea is that we grow as people to be responsible adults not to be constantly children looking to be led all the time.
Christianity may have come from a small part of Judaism but there is very little in common, we have different thoughts, different practices, different writings and very different ways of expressing our beliefs. Judaism isn't Christianity without Jesus, the divergence is far bigger than that.

I don't think the lack of tolerance is on my side by the way, I don't believe my faith is the right one for everybody, we believe in free will and everyone being responsible for themselves. Whatever relationship they want to have with any or no deity is entirely their business and their choices should be respected as being every bit as valid as everyone elses.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hyoho said:


> I vaguely remember a situation like that some years ago. I guess some people need to study Japanese customs. Bowing in Japan is like shaking hands. You will never be able to bow as deeply as an old lady who in her frailty venerates her fellow man to help her in everything.


Yes, this. Unortunately, in the Bible Belt (Southern US, for those outside the country) it is fairly common for folks to see things as anti-Christian simply because they don't understand them, are afraid of them, or don't like them.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> This is how Judaism is, we don't do things in the name of God but to become better people, Ethics and the Law are more important parts of the belief than worshipping or spirituality. The idea is that we grow as people to be responsible adults not to be constantly children looking to be led all the time.
> Christianity may have come from a small part of Judaism but there is very little in common, we have different thoughts, different practices, different writings and very different ways of expressing our beliefs. Judaism isn't Christianity without Jesus, the divergence is far bigger than that.
> 
> I don't think the lack of tolerance is on my side by the way, I don't believe my faith is the right one for everybody, we believe in free will and everyone being responsible for themselves. Whatever relationship they want to have with any or no deity is entirely their business and their choices should be respected as being every bit as valid as everyone elses.


Posts like this make me all the more confused by the Messianic Jews. How do you combine those two things, at all?


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## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Posts like this make me all the more confused by the Messianic Jews. How do you combine those two things, at all?



The 'Messianic Jews' are Christians not in the least Jewish, they are completely and utterly different, they are also borderline stalkers being keen to convert Jews. They can call themselves what they like but will never be Jewish nor do they believe as we do, it's a con quite frankly. Their doctrines are Jewish, their thoughts aren't, the way they look at the Law isn't, nothing is. Much of what they believe is diametrically opposed to what we believe in.


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## Deleted member 34973

gpseymour said:


> Zero tolerance of what, precisely? So far, Tez has only put forth some explanations of her views, and an attempt to distinguish Judaism from Christianity (which I see as divergences from the same root, whatever that means).
> 
> If you have no tolerance for others mentioning their religion, then it would be best not to step into a discussion where they are in play. If you have no tolerance for people defending their views, perhaps you could express your own with some moderation.
> 
> I'm entirely areligious, so I'm not bothered by your attitude on religion. Not my fight. But you stepped into a discussion in a fairly un-civil manner.


No thank you, I have zero tolerance in debating religion. I let Tez know that I had no desire to debate religious views and she wished to continue anyway, you are right about stepping into it and from this point forward, I will not make that mistake again.


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## Gerry Seymour

Guthrie said:


> No thank you, I have zero tolerance in debating religion. I let Tez know that I had no desire to debate religious views and she wished to continue anyway, you are right about stepping into it and from this point forward, I will not make that mistake again.


Actually, you stepped in, said some fairly negative things about religion, then claimed not to want to get into a debate. That's pretty passive-aggressive.

But I don't want to get into a discussion of your behavior.


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## Deleted member 34973

gpseymour said:


> Actually, you stepped in, said some fairly negative things about religion, then claimed not to want to get into a debate. That's pretty passive-aggressive.
> 
> But I don't want to get into a discussion of your behavior.


Excellent, so as far as this conversation goes(at least with me). Its over.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Christianity may have come from a small part of Judaism but there is very little in common, we have different thoughts, different practices, different writings and very different ways of expressing our beliefs. Judaism isn't Christianity without Jesus, the divergence is far bigger than that.


That I will have to agree with.


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## Tez3

Guthrie said:


> No thank you, I have zero tolerance in debating religion. I let Tez know that I had no desire to debate religious views and she wished to continue anyway, you are right about stepping into it and from this point forward, I will not make that mistake again.



Do you think you are the only poster on here then or that the OP wouldn't want answers to his questions? To debate anything one has to know what one is talking about, as it was clear you didn't there was little point in debating with you.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> This is how human behaviour is looked upon in Judaism, it's down to you. There is the Law, whether you follow it is up to you as free will is given, how you behave is up to you. There is little 'worship' in Judaism, it's about how you behave so that has implications in everything you do. In martial arts it could be something like sharing a drink with someone who forgot to bring one, helping a beginner with something, being respectful towards people and the fixtures and fittings in the dojo, replacing the toilet the roll so the person after you has some , very small simple things that inform our lives so that we act in a way that benefits others rather than spiteful things which detract from you as a person.


So what you're saying I believe is that your religion influences everything you do in life including your training in the martial arts and stuff you might do in your training such as sharing a drink with somebody or helping out a beginner and so forth. Is that right?


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> So what you're saying I believe is that your religion influences everything you do in life including your training in the martial arts and stuff you might do in your training such as sharing a drink with somebody or helping out a beginner and so forth. Is that right?



My religion, no. I chose to abide by the Law so that I consider everything I do. Judaism 101: Halakhah: Jewish Law

_"Judaism is not just a set of __beliefs__ about __G-d__, man and the universe. Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life: what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot __eat__, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can __marry__, how to observe the __holidays__ and __Shabbat__, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, __other people__, and __animals__. This set of rules and practices is known as halakhah."_


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## Buka

I have attended services in a Synagogue, a Catholic Church, a Buddhist Temple, Episcopal, Pentecostal, Protestant, Presbyterian, Lutheran and a few others. No Mosques, as there weren't any to my knowledge in Boston when I was a kid. 

What I concluded, my opinion mind you, was everyone was worshipping the same deity, just in different ways.

It so reminds me of the Martial Arts.


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## Tez3

Buka said:


> I have attended services in a Synagogue, a Catholic Church, a Buddhist Temple, Episcopal, Pentecostal, Protestant, Presbyterian, Lutheran and a few others. No Mosques, as there weren't any to my knowledge in Boston when I was a kid.
> 
> What I concluded, my opinion mind you, was everyone was worshipping the same deity, just in different ways.
> 
> It so reminds me of the Martial Arts.



We don't 'worship' though, we have a contract with our deity, a covenant, much more of an equal partnership.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> My religion, no. I chose to abide by the Law so that I consider everything I do. Judaism 101: Halakhah: Jewish Law
> 
> _"Judaism is not just a set of __beliefs__ about __G-d__, man and the universe. Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life: what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot __eat__, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can __marry__, how to observe the __holidays__ and __Shabbat__, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, __other people__, and __animals__. This set of rules and practices is known as halakhah."_



I see. Well I never said that you can't abide by the Law when you're training in martial arts and that's not what Morgan ever implies. What Morgan points out is that some people think that by taking up martial arts that you're getting involved in some sort of religion. Lots of people think that by training in martial arts you might be practicing eastern religion and some people are intimidated by that and are therefore reluctant to start martial arts training. Especially some of the rituals done in the martial arts such as bowing is associated with religion. Morgan makes the distinction that martial arts and religion are two different things.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. Well I never said that you can't abide by the Law when you're training in martial arts and that's not what Morgan ever implies. What Morgan points out is that some people think that by taking up martial arts that you're getting involved in some sort of religion. Lots of people think that by training in martial arts you might be practicing eastern religion and some people are intimidated by that and are therefore reluctant to start martial arts training. Especially some of the rituals done in the martial arts such as bowing is associated with religion. Morgan makes the distinction that martial arts and religion are two different things.




I don't think you get what any of us actually mean.


I didn't think people are intimidated by training in a martial art because they think it's a religion because the only ones who are against anything like that are a subset of Christians who are against anything they say isn't right including Judaism btw. Bowing isn't a ritual, it is a polite gesture still used by far more people than in martial arts of the East.
In Scottish and English country dancing there are bows from the men curtseys from the women, none of which has anything to do with religion. We bow when a funeral passes, we bow to the lowering of flags and Colours, we bow when laying wreaths. In fact in everyday life bowing is actually fairly common.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I don't think you get what any of us actually mean.
> 
> 
> I didn't think people are intimidated by training in a martial art because they think it's a religion because the only ones who are against anything like that are a subset of Christians who are against anything they say isn't right including Judaism btw. Bowing isn't a ritual, it is a polite gesture still used by far more people than in martial arts of the East.
> In Scottish and English country dancing there are bows from the men curtseys from the women, none of which has anything to do with religion. We bow when a funeral passes, we bow to the lowering of flags and Colours, we bow when laying wreaths. In fact in everyday life bowing is actually fairly common.


What some schools do in their opening bow, IMO, rises to the definition of "ritual". That's neither good nor bad, but I think the word fits when the sequence is something like:

Students bow as instructor moves to front of room.
Students facing head instructor, bow to each other.
Instructor and students turn to face kamiza, bow to kamiza.
Head instructor faces associate instructors, bow to each other.
It somehow feels decidedly Catholic to me.


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## Tez3

I've been watching the Olympic Judo, been brilliant so far with more to come in a couple of hours. Now, obviously with Judo being Japanese there's bowing but with so many nationalities and langauges involved bowing is such a good way of being polite and showing you understand etc.


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## Hyoho

gpseymour said:


> What some schools do in their opening bow, IMO, rises to the definition of "ritual". That's neither good nor bad, but I think the word fits when the sequence is something like:
> 
> Students bow as instructor moves to front of room.
> Students facing head instructor, bow to each other.
> Instructor and students turn to face kamiza, bow to kamiza.
> Head instructor faces associate instructors, bow to each other.
> It somehow feels decidedly Catholic to me.



Look at it like shaking hands but its just that they do it more often. It's about respect. I happen to know and was taught by the present headmaster of Ogasawara reiho. It was the Ogasawara ryu that introduced it methods in the Kamakura period in the late 1200's My founder lived to serve and his son was a retainer of the Lord Ogasawara. So we find it befitting to do the etiquette that was practiced at the time of my founder for continuity. Needless to say its rather more complicated than just bowing. I can assure you the family did not invent the system with religious intent. 

Part of my job for many years was teaching Japanese etiquette to Japanese people in education. Few young people know anything about it and dont have the capability of sitting in seiza for more than a few minutes. It just that the ettiquette got mixed in with religion like everything else.

 My founder said believe in god/the gods but dont rely on them.  If you can fit all of or part of your religion to go alongside your MA ? All well and good. But the death concept? That's something else as we dont fight to the death any more. And this is the the reason people that fought to the death identified with a concept that would go hand in hand with their life/death.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hyoho said:


> Look at it like shaking hands but its just that they do it more often. It's about respect. I happen to know and was taught by the present headmaster of Ogasawara reiho. It was the Ogasawara ryu that introduced it methods in the Kamakura period in the late 1200's My founder lived to serve and his son was a retainer of the Lord Ogasawara. So we find it befitting to do the etiquette that was practiced at the time of my founder for continuity. Needless to say its rather more complicated than just bowing. I can assure you the family did not invent the system with religious intent.
> 
> Part of my job for many years was teaching Japanese etiquette to Japanese people in education. Few young people know anything about it and dont have the capability of sitting in seiza for more than a few minutes. It just that the ettiquette got mixed in with religion like everything else.
> 
> My founder said believe in god/the gods but dont rely on them.  If you can fit all of or part of your religion to go alongside your MA ? All well and good. But the death concept? That's something else as we dont fight to the death any more. And this is the the reason people that fought to the death identified with a concept that would go hand in hand with their life/death.



My point was simply that if you take anything - even shaking hands - and make it too structured, it becomes a ritual. Many older fraternities have complicated challenge handshake rituals designed to identify members of the fraternity. They often get complex enough to be called "challenge rituals".


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Bowing isn't a ritual, it is a polite gesture still used by far more people than in martial arts of the East.


I am aware of the purpose of bowing in the martial arts. As you said, its a polite gesture nothing more. Bowing is more or less much like a handshake in how it is used. But, there are people who do think its a religious ritual. There are people who think that just about anything foreign or of another culture is religious. I know of a case of an instructor who used to require students to know the Japanese words for the techniques but he stopped doing that because some of the parents of the children who he was teaching were getting concerned in that they thought he was teaching a religion when in fact he wasn't, he was teaching a sport that was from a different culture but since the parents were getting concerned and thought it had religious overtones since he was requiring students to know the Japanese words for the techniques he stopped requiring that.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I am aware of the purpose of bowing in the martial arts. As you said, its a polite gesture nothing more. Bowing is more or less much like a handshake in how it is used. But, there are people who do think its a religious ritual. There are people who think that just about anything foreign or of another culture is religious. I know of a case of an instructor who used to require students to know the Japanese words for the techniques but he stopped doing that because some of the parents of the children who he was teaching were getting concerned in that they thought he was teaching a religion when in fact he wasn't, he was teaching a sport that was from a different culture but since the parents were getting concerned and thought it had religious overtones since he was requiring students to know the Japanese words for the techniques he stopped requiring that.



These will be the same people most likely who stalk me to convert.

I wonder what they think of fencing and dressage riding where a lot of terms are in French lol.


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## Hyoho

To me its second nature as Japanese resident for many years. Its mutual respect. I even bow on the phone! It become habitual. So is saying excuse me in Japanese even if they dont mean it.


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## Tez3

Hyoho said:


> To me its second nature as Japanese resident for many years. Its mutual respect. I even bow on the phone! It become habitual. So is saying excuse me in Japanese even if they dont mean it.



I like bowing, it's just much more polite and hygienic than shaking hands! I'm used to working with Gurkhas so putting hands together when saying Namaste is now second nature and that's a nice greeting too.


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## Gerry Seymour

PhotonGuy said:


> I am aware of the purpose of bowing in the martial arts. As you said, its a polite gesture nothing more. Bowing is more or less much like a handshake in how it is used. But, there are people who do think its a religious ritual. There are people who think that just about anything foreign or of another culture is religious. I know of a case of an instructor who used to require students to know the Japanese words for the techniques but he stopped doing that because some of the parents of the children who he was teaching were getting concerned in that they thought he was teaching a religion when in fact he wasn't, he was teaching a sport that was from a different culture but since the parents were getting concerned and thought it had religious overtones since he was requiring students to know the Japanese words for the techniques he stopped requiring that.


Let me guess - this was in the Southern US, right?


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## PhotonGuy

gpseymour said:


> Let me guess - this was in the Southern US, right?



Nope it was in NJ.


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## Gerry Seymour

PhotonGuy said:


> Nope it was in NJ.


Wow. I thought we only had that kind of closed-mindedness down here.


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## Tez3

I think you have problems when you have people who are in charge of things stating as an argument against abortion that the foetuses come back as ghosts and steal medical equipment which is costing a lot of money. Now surely the abortion debate is or should be a serious one based on more than some weird idea about saving money. When people start inflicting beliefs like that on others you are going to be in trouble so it's no wonder at all that martial arts are seen by these people as a religion or something 'devil sent'.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I think you have problems when you have people who are in charge of things stating as an argument against abortion that the foetuses come back as ghosts and steal medical equipment which is costing a lot of money. Now surely the abortion debate is or should be a serious one based on more than some weird idea about saving money. When people start inflicting beliefs like that on others you are going to be in trouble so it's no wonder at all that martial arts are seen by these people as a religion or something 'devil sent'.


Wait, that doesn't happen???


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## PhotonGuy

gpseymour said:


> Wow. I thought we only had that kind of closed-mindedness down here.



I see you're from NC, that is not really deep south.


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## Gerry Seymour

PhotonGuy said:


> I see you're from NC, that is not really deep south.


Nobody ever said it was deep south.


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## PhotonGuy

gpseymour said:


> Nobody ever said it was deep south.



No but generally speaking its the deep south where theres the religious fanatics who label stuff as being of the devil if they don't understand it.


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## Steve

There are religious fanatics everywhere.


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## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> No but generally speaking its the deep south where theres the religious fanatics who label stuff as being of the devil if they don't understand it.



Heck, I've seen that in NY....


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## Gerry Seymour

PhotonGuy said:


> No but generally speaking its the deep south where theres the religious fanatics who label stuff as being of the devil if they don't understand it.


No, that's the Bible Belt, and I'm definitely inside that. I've seen stuff like that my whole life. It's more common in Georgia than in the Carolinas, but there's plenty of it here, too.


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## PhotonGuy

gpseymour said:


> No, that's the Bible Belt, and I'm definitely inside that. I've seen stuff like that my whole life. It's more common in Georgia than in the Carolinas, but there's plenty of it here, too.


You should see Missouri, they're really crazy there.


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## wingchun100

Tez3 said:


> However religion and martial arts are not separated for many people. It doesn't mean that martial arts are a religion but for many their religion is such an integral part of their lives that it touches everything they do and say. The idea that religion is in a separate box brought out for Sundays is a very Western idea, in the East there is much less separation which I think confuses many Westerners. The book is only one man's ideas and thoughts, it doesn't make it the truth.


 

It doesn't help that many people will defend their martial art as passionately as if it WERE their religion. Much in the way a Christian would get mad if a Muslim said "your religion sucks," some people will get just as worked up if you tell them the style they study is useless.


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## wingchun100

To follow up on that, I will say that I don't think I have ever seen a style that I would label "useless." Certainly I have seen some techniques that seemed to not work, but you could also follow THAT statement up by saying, "Maybe the technique just didn't work for the situation to which they were trying to apply it."


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