# kenpo and the internal arts



## pete (Oct 19, 2005)

i've heard ed parker quoted as saying there are three things you can do with circular motion: follow its path, reverse its direction, or cut it in half.  i found this to parallel the chinese internal arts of tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i, where tai chi will yield and adhere to an opposing force, bagua utilizes change to alter directions, and hsing-i being more linear will cut through its center.  

any thoughts on this, whether it was a factor in the development of epak or just coincidental... 

pete


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## Seabrook (Oct 19, 2005)

This is too bizarre Pete. I was thinking of the same type of analogy today, as I was slowy working on the hand isolations at the beginning of Long Form 3. 

Please don't tell me you were thinking about this over lunch hour, LOL.

Good post.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## pete (Oct 20, 2005)

no jamie, nothing creepy, just great minds doing what they do best~

i was actually seeing the following and sticking in Darting Mace with tai chi, the footwork and multiple attacker strategies in Falcons of Force with bagua, and the linear directness in Calming the Storm with hsing-i.

pete


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## kempoguy71 (Oct 20, 2005)

I would think that most biomechanically efficient systems will draw parallels to one another.

However, the difference between the Chinese Internal Systems and EPAK (in my humble opinion) is that the latter uses what I would call "Sectional Power", which is different from the power an internal martial artist generates (they generate what I would call "whole body power").

Another difference is that Chinese Internal Systems never issue force until you are in an advantageous position by (trying to) 'borrow the opponents energy'; sticking and following the incoming force vector; and by avoiding direct contact (never meet power with power).


KG


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## Michael Billings (Oct 21, 2005)

I would argue, that a higher level Kenpo student should use a "whole body" form of relaxed power.  If I was into the traditional internal arts ... which I am not, I would think of it as reeling silk energy, or a whipping power using the weapon (segment or sectional power) combined with relaxed rotation, gravitational marrage, or body momentum through multiple dimensions.  Part of is is to learn NOT to suspend the weapon, with our own musculature, but to allow that relaxed weight to be imparted into the target as possible.

 I know this is a bit convuluted, but I am trying to use your framework for a reply, and I am not trying to be disingenuous at all.  I am mearly posing the possibility that there are differing levels of understanding within the various EPAK systems.  Not all focus on the external, although I think most do start there, there is so much more to learn.  

 -Michael


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## Jagdish (Oct 21, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> i've heard ed parker quoted as saying there are three things you can do with circular motion: follow its path, reverse its direction, or cut it in half.  i found this to parallel the chinese internal arts of tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i, where tai chi will yield and adhere to an opposing force, bagua utilizes change to alter directions, and hsing-i being more linear will cut through its center.
> 
> any thoughts on this, whether it was a factor in the development of epak or just coincidental...
> 
> pete



Pete:

I have been thinking the same for a long time and i always find similarities.

I feel Epak resembles more to Hsing-I , in the sense of applying the back fists,straight punches,etc. Hsing-I uses vertical circles to reach the opponent &  is the more "external" of the 3 systems.

The Epak strategy of circling the opponent resembles Bagua strategies but i haven't been able to link any direct connection. Epak's stepping up the circle _depending onthe tech_. is very similar.

Also The second level of studying M.A. is to go beyond restrictions of styles and study the Upward, downward, inside, outside, etc. way fo generating force.


Whole Body power is something used by some so called external styles at some extent.

Some quick thoughts. :supcool: 

Yours,

Jagdish


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## Jagdish (Oct 21, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I would argue, that a higher level Kenpo student should use a "whole body" form of relaxed power.  If I was into the traditional internal arts ... which I am not, I would think of it as reeling silk energy, or a whipping power using the weapon (segment or sectional power) combined with relaxed rotation, gravitational marrage, or body momentum through multiple dimensions.  Part of is is to learn NOT to suspend the weapon, with our own musculature, but to allow that relaxed weight to be imparted into the target as possible.
> 
> I know this is a bit convuluted, but I am trying to use your framework for a reply, and I am not trying to be disingenuous at all.  I am mearly posing the possibility that there are differing levels of understanding within the various EPAK systems.  Not all focus on the external, although I think most do start there, there is so much more to learn.
> 
> -Michael



Michael:

The internal arts also focus on issuing all force to the opponent with 0% remaining on the practicioner.

Your thinking is very right. What is FOR You the Silk reeling energy?

Yours,

Jagdish


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## Doc (Oct 21, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I would argue, that a higher level Kenpo student should use a "whole body" form of relaxed power.  If I was into the traditional internal arts ... which I am not, I would think of it as reeling silk energy, or a whipping power using the weapon (segment or sectional power) combined with relaxed rotation, gravitational marrage, or body momentum through multiple dimensions.  Part of is is to learn NOT to suspend the weapon, with our own musculature, but to allow that relaxed weight to be imparted into the target as possible.
> 
> I know this is a bit convuluted, but I am trying to use your framework for a reply, and I am not trying to be disingenuous at all.  I am mearly posing the possibility that there are differing levels of understanding within the various EPAK systems.  Not all focus on the external, although I think most do start there, there is so much more to learn.
> 
> -Michael


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## kempoguy71 (Oct 21, 2005)

> I feel Epak resembles more to Hsing-I , in the sense of applying the back fists,straight punches,etc. Hsing-I uses vertical circles to reach the opponent & is the more "external" of the 3 systems.





> The Epak strategy of circling the opponent resembles Bagua strategies but i haven't been able to link any direct connection. Epak's stepping up the circle _depending onthe tech_. is very similar.


 
I feel EPAK if anything resembles some of the striking elements of Ba Gua over Xing Yi... 

I'm unsure of what you mean by Xing Yi being more 'external' than the other 'internal' systems... as far as I know the issuance of various "jing's" (power) are extremely similar between all three arts. 

Also Ba Gua can be very "linear"... some schools of Ba Gua use pre-dominantly linear forms (although circle walking is still practiced for palm changes). 



On another note, I wanted to quickly address what I meant by Sectional Power and Whole Body Power as I see it...

An "external" martial artists (which is the category I feel most if not all Kenpo falls under) may shift his whole body to engage a strike, but more often than not uses compartmentalized power to generate force. 

Also in many Kenpo/Kempo systems teach to harden their fists (iron fist, iron palm training; leg conditioning etc.). Now this is never seen in Internal Martial Arts as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used. 

Believe it or not, you can easily tell the difference between the two types of power generation if struck. 

And how you issue power seem to be quite congruous between most external systems; and the same can be said of internal arts. 

By the way, by no means am I saying that one is more effective than another.


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## Jagdish (Oct 22, 2005)

"I feel EPAK if anything resembles some of the striking elements of Ba Gua over Xing Yi... "

Yes, my explanation was partial. The circular moves and combos resembles Bagua. However the single techs. and some combos resemble Hsing-I.

"I'm unsure of what you mean by Xing Yi being more 'external' than the other 'internal' systems... as far as I know the issuance of various "jing's" (power) are extremely similar between all three arts. "

Well, there is a saying 3 years for Xing-Yi, 10 year for Tai-chi and Bagua in between. The jing are a little bit different that's why i said it's more external.
For the explanation of the three jings i have to look into my notes.

"Also Ba Gua can be very "linear"... some schools of Ba Gua use pre-dominantly linear forms (although circle walking is still practiced for palm changes)."

Yes, again you are right but this are modern adds. 



"On another note, I wanted to quickly address what I meant by Sectional Power and Whole Body Power as I see it...

An "external" martial artists (which is the category I feel most if not all Kenpo falls under) may shift his whole body to engage a strike, but more often than not uses compartmentalized power to generate force. 

Also in many Kenpo/Kempo systems teach to harden their fists (iron fist, iron palm training; leg conditioning etc.). Now this is never seen in Internal Martial Arts as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used. 

Believe it or not, you can easily tell the difference between the two types of power generation if struck. 

And how you issue power seem to be quite congruous between most external systems; and the same can be said of internal arts. 

By the way, by no means am I saying that one is more effective than another. 
 "


Again your explanation is right.

Glad to talk to you. :supcool: 

Just one quick note: Doc has post some of his way of doing the kenpo and its internal from my point of view. He also has a profound knowlege and has the ability to explain it within a common sense point of view.

Yours,

Jagdish


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## pete (Oct 24, 2005)

i don't see american kenpo as more one or the other, but as perhaps a perfect balance of the tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i internal elements and fighting strategies.  take a technique like capture leaves.  the base is pure tai chi anti-chin na and the extension could have come out of a bagua textbook.

most kenpoists are 'external' artists, but that does not make kenpo an external art. maybe it is for us guys struggling through our training. i truly believe that at the highest level, and with certain practitioners, kenpo can be as much an internal art as the traditional 3. i've seen (and felt it) with one such kenpo master, and glimpses in other kenpoists.

pete


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## Doc (Oct 24, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> i don't see american kenpo as more one or the other, but as perhaps a perfect balance of the tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i internal elements and fighting strategies.  take a technique like capture leaves.  the base is pure tai chi anti-chin na and the extension could have come out of a bagua textbook.
> 
> most kenpoists are 'external' artists, but that does not make kenpo an external art. maybe it is for us guys struggling through our training. i truly believe that at the highest level, and with certain practitioners, kenpo can be as much an internal art as the traditional 3. i've seen (and felt it) with one such kenpo master, and glimpses in other kenpoists.
> 
> pete


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## Jagdish (Oct 25, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> i don't see american kenpo as more one or the other, but as perhaps a perfect balance of the tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i internal elements and fighting strategies. take a technique like capture leaves. the base is pure tai chi anti-chin na and the extension could have come out of a bagua textbook.
> 
> pete


 
I don't see how AK can be a balance of T.C.,B.G., an X.I. I see a system with internal principles that resemble, depending on the execution, one or other style.

Having 2 arms, 2 legs, one trunk and one head(in some cases) limits the way the human body can move eficiently. Therefore, in higher levels different styles will resemble the same in similar  executed techniques .



			
				pete said:
			
		

> most kenpoists are 'external' artists, but that does not make kenpo an external art. maybe it is for us guys struggling through our training. i truly believe that at the highest level, and with certain practitioners, kenpo can be as much an internal art as the traditional 3. i've seen (and felt it) with one such kenpo master, and glimpses in other kenpoists.
> 
> pete


 
Therefore the individual can enhance a system,no? Using the proper principles.:asian: 

But in higher levels...there shouldn't be any internal/external dicotomy.What do you think?


Yours,

Jagdish


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## camilyon (Jan 26, 2006)

> Also in many Kenpo/Kempo systems teach to harden their fists (iron fist, iron palm training; leg conditioning etc.). Now this is never seen in Internal Martial Arts as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used.



What do you think about this Doc? And during practice does SL-4 concern it self with the internal muscles and organs? (Don't remember whether or not I asked this question before, please be patient) :asian:


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## Doc (Jan 26, 2006)

camilyon said:
			
		

> What do you think about this Doc? And during practice does SL-4 concern it self with the internal muscles and organs? (Don't remember whether or not I asked this question before, please be patient) :asian:


How dare you ask me that again!!! OK Gotcha. The statement is a bit convoluted but as I understand it, yes. As I was taught, you train the internal by insuring the external is executed properly. Over time, the movement needed to achieve the internal results because smaller, until eventually a mind body connection is made. When this happens, the internal takes precedent and alignments and energy becomes almost wholly internal. Maximum results with minimum execution. Speed is a vicarious byproduct as well. "Chi" is nothing but the most efficient use of biomechanical function developed over time.

Most these days, especially in many forms of "kenpo," place a great deal of emphasis on "techniques" from the beginning without laying foundational material to support the structor. The teaching of "basics" is truly a lost art. What are basics? Biomechanical movement designed to ultimately create internal enrgy, or chi. Teaching them takes an extraordinarily knowledgeable teacher who was tutored by another of the same. Most modern kenpo doesn't even have anything that resembles decent stances. It's the teachers fault, whomever he is. "You ain't gonna find that in no books." - Ed Parker Sr.


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## Jagdish (Jan 26, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> "Chi" is nothing but the most efficient use of biomechanical function developed over time.


 
Finally someone has told it as it is.:ultracool


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## Doc (Jan 26, 2006)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I would argue, that a higher level Kenpo student should use a "whole body" form of relaxed power.  If I was into the traditional internal arts ... which I am not, I would think of it as reeling silk energy, or a whipping power using the weapon (segment or sectional power) combined with relaxed rotation, gravitational marrage, or body momentum through multiple dimensions.  Part of is is to learn NOT to suspend the weapon, with our own musculature, but to allow that relaxed weight to be imparted into the target as possible.
> 
> I know this is a bit convuluted, but I am trying to use your framework for a reply, and I am not trying to be disingenuous at all.  I am mearly posing the possibility that there are differing levels of understanding within the various EPAK systems.  Not all focus on the external, although I think most do start there, there is so much more to learn.
> 
> -Michael


Preach Big Mike.


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## Doc (Jan 26, 2006)

kempoguy71 said:
			
		

> I would think that most biomechanically efficient systems will draw parallels to one another.
> 
> However, the difference between the Chinese Internal Systems and EPAK (in my humble opinion) is that the latter uses what I would call "Sectional Power", which is different from the power an internal martial artist generates (they generate what I would call "whole body power").


Preach alert: Keep in mind that genralizations about Ed Parker Kenpo don't work well. Being specific about your experiences is much better, and allow the Kenpo people to comment on their expereinces as well. Most in any art are usually only exposed to small segments of their own art and even less of others.

I guarantee that people like myself and Mr. Billings would disagree with your general assertion. There are instructors in Kenpo from the Ed Parker Lineage who do teach "whole body" power. I myself, teach it from the beginning with the emphasis on proper execution and stances from day one. There is no transition from one method to another. There is simply correct, and incorrect. There are many "kenpo flavors" and as much as we want to characterize "EPAK" into a certain box, the diversity inherent in Mr. Parker's own teaching precludes gross generalizations. Now let's see, what were we talking about again?  Thanks for letting me preach a bit.


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## jdinca (Jan 26, 2006)

I'm glad this post popped up! Fabulous stuff.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2006)

kempoguy71 said:
			
		

> Also in many Kenpo/Kempo systems teach to harden their fists (iron fist, iron palm training; leg conditioning etc.). Now this is never seen in Internal Martial Arts as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used.


 
Actually, no this is not true of the internal Chinese arts.  According to my Sifu, even in the Chen Village practitioners will engage in external conditioning in various ways.  They don't focus on the hard conditioning like many of the more external stylists do (i.e. developing big callouses on the knuckles thru extensive makiwara training) but the physical development of the body is not neglected.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> How dare you ask me that again!!! OK Gotcha. The statement is a bit convoluted but as I understand it, yes. As I was taught, you train the internal by insuring the external is executed properly. Over time, the movement needed to achieve the internal results because smaller, until eventually a mind body connection is made. When this happens, the internal takes precedent and alignments and energy becomes almost wholly internal. Maximum results with minimum execution. Speed is a vicarious byproduct as well. "Chi" is nothing but the most efficient use of biomechanical function developed over time.


 
This agrees with my understanding of Chen style Tai Chi.  Movements in learning the form begin large, as this is a way of "kick starting" your internal development.  As your skill increases your movement can become smaller and more subtle while still generating the same or better power.  Eventually, the movement is purely internal and cannot be seen externally altho it is still there.  Not many people ever develop to this level.  Most of us still make large movements and struggle to develop power on that level. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





With regard to the last statement, I have heard descriptions of chi as feeling like one is taking a shower on the inside of their body.  Literally it feels like a fluid sloshing back and forth on the inside.  I have never felt this.  The best I have felt is a sense of heat in the palms of my hands, during certain movements of the form, and that is not every time.  I'm not claiming it is necessarily one or the other, just giving an alternative description.  Food for thought, if you will.


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## Doc (Jan 26, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Actually, no this is not true of the internal Chinese arts.  According to my Sifu, even in the Chen Village practitioners will engage in external conditioning in various ways.  They don't focus on the hard conditioning like many of the more external stylists do (i.e. developing big callouses on the knuckles thru extensive makiwara training) but the physical development of the body is not neglected.


Well I didn't want to go there, but since you opened it up, yes you're correct. Many flavors of the Chinese Arts train externally first with the emphasis left over from the Tang Dynasty warrior days. When I began as a kid with now Grandmaster Douglas Wong as a classmate, there was always a pot of heated sand, next to a pot of ditdajow, next to a heavy bag. Although everyone didn't participate in this training at Ark Wongs "Wah Que School of Chinese Kung fu," is was there. The Chinese Methods of external training in many instances are even more rigorous than the Japanese/Okinawan methods which only focus on the external.


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## Doc (Jan 26, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> This agrees with my understanding of Chen style Tai Chi.  Movements in learning the form begin large, as this is a way of "kick starting" your internal development.  As your skill increases your movement can become smaller and more subtle while still generating the same or better power.  Eventually, the movement is purely internal and cannot be seen externally altho it is still there.  Not many people ever develop to this level.  Most of us still make large movements and struggle to develop power on that level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My most physically visible effect has been the "oozing" of blood through my pores of my fingertips.


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## IWishToLearn (Jan 28, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> "Chi" is nothing but the most efficient use of biomechanical function developed over time.



Dr. Chapel - I'm quoting you on that.


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## Doc (Jan 28, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Dr. Chapel - I'm quoting you on that.


Thanks for the warning. Hope you got ALL the pictures.


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## IWishToLearn (Jan 28, 2006)

Lemme go count how many I got.

*goes back to outlook & counts*

I got six of them. Thank you so much! Now I can do my magic with Photoshop mehehehe.


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## Doc (Jan 28, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> This agrees with my understanding of Chen style Tai Chi.  Movements in learning the form begin large, as this is a way of "kick starting" your internal development.  As your skill increases your movement can become smaller and more subtle while still generating the same or better power.  Eventually, the movement is purely internal and cannot be seen externally altho it is still there.  Not many people ever develop to this level.  Most of us still make large movements and struggle to develop power on that level.


Man I gotta stop posting when I'm tired. Too many typos when I read my stuff the next day. Please forgive, I can spell a little bit. Anyway the statement you made is correct. Precise manipulation of the external is an absolute prerequsite to developing the internal. So you need not only someone who knows "how" to teach you, but the willingness to be taught precisely. Of course you realize this absolutely contridicts the commercial philosophy of, "Do it anyway you want, as long as it works for you." that's used to sell self defense arts. These are two of the reasons why many never develop "internal energy" or long lasting skills. The martial activity they've chosen, coupled with the instructor, simply does not have the discipline nor the knowledge of the methodology required. It's a double edged sword. Student retention satisfying flexibility generating short term diminishing and often questionable skills, or physically precise and demanding execution that ultimately generates internal energy. Both work but not equally as well. Too bad they give belts for the first one.


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## Jagdish (Jan 28, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Dr. Chapel - I'm quoting you on that.


 
Hey, i did it first!:jedi1:  :uhyeah: :lol: :lol2: :roflmao: 

Peace :yinyang:


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## Kenpoist (Mar 8, 2006)

While we are on the subject of internal arts, have any of you fellow kenpoists had an extensive study in one of the major three?  What is your recommendation as a supplement to Kenpo?

I previously studied Ba Gua (Dragon Palm style) under Master Par Bok-Nam and he diplayed an extraordinary amount of power when he would demonstrate his palm strikes (dragon back/palm strike).  I am sorry to say I did not have the time or patience to dedicate myself to the art (I think I was also missing Kenpo at the time).

I have the opportunity to study the internal arts again and I am trying to weigh my options. My research say's that Hsing-I is the easiest to transition to from an "external" background.

Your thoughts are always appreciated.


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## Doc (Mar 8, 2006)

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> While we are on the subject of internal arts, have any of you fellow kenpoists had an extensive study in one of the major three?  What is your recommendation as a supplement to Kenpo?
> 
> I previously studied Ba Gua (Dragon Palm style) under Master Par Bok-Nam and he diplayed an extraordinary amount of power when he would demonstrate his palm strikes (dragon back/palm strike).  I am sorry to say I did not have the time or patience to dedicate myself to the art (I think I was also missing Kenpo at the time).
> 
> ...


I prefer Kenpo.


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## Bode (Mar 8, 2006)

I would definetly have to say that it's not the art, but the teacher. I find that our Kenpo training is as much internal as it is external, the latter being emphasized more. As I see it, proper external movement leads to internal energy. 
Working our way from the outside in....


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 8, 2006)

i've studied tai chi pretty extensively over the last few years.  i find it improved my kenpo stances and helped me move more from my center.  

i haven't studied the others, so have no basis for comparison.  but tai chi was very helpful.


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## Sigung86 (Mar 15, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> i've studied tai chi pretty extensively over the last few years.  i find it improved my kenpo stances and helped me move more from my center.
> 
> i haven't studied the others, so have no basis for comparison.  but tai chi was very helpful.



Could you be more specific?  I'm curious as to how you have "collaborated" moving on your toes, essentially, with rotating to your stances with stepping in and rotating on your heels?

Don't think I disagree... I am merely looking to make conversation.


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