# Tunnel Vision



## Ediaan (Mar 26, 2013)

So one of my fellow students, fairly new to WT, was involved in a fight at a gas station a few days back.

Apparently some jerk was shouting at him and using vulgar language and started to move towards him. When he realized that there was no other way than to move forward and attack down the centre, he did that. He chain punched and took the guy down. When the guy fell to the ground, he continued his attack by having his one leg on the guys short ribs and continuing his chain punch.

Next moment, the guy's buddy comes from the side and knocks him out.

Tunnel vision.

We try to teach students how important it is to always be aware of your surroundings. He was so busy continuing his attack that he forgot to check whether there was anybody else around that might come to the assailants aid.

How many of us have been robbed / attacked when suddenly there were three or four people around you  - coming, seemingly, out of the woodwork?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2013)

That happens with adrenaline. The only way to train against it is to train with adrenaline (which is not the same as sparring, or many things sometimes thought to be the same), simply telling people to "be more aware", or even "check around you" isn't enough.


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## mysurvive (Mar 26, 2013)

How could you train with adrenaline regularly to get rid of the tunnel vision without going out and picking fights?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2013)

By understanding what it is, what the process is, how to deliberately (safely, controllably) generate the proper form of adrenaline, and build up your ability to move/train with it. Then repeat. Many, many times.


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## Ediaan (Mar 26, 2013)

mysurvive said:


> How could you train with adrenaline regularly to get rid of the tunnel vision without going out and picking fights?


Sparring is the best answer. We have a lot of students with other martial arts / mma experience. We put safety gear on and then one person is the WT student and the other a street fighter. That type of sparring is called controlled fighting and it's the closest I've ever come to a real fight.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2013)

No, it's not. It's quite removed from real fighting, on a number of levels, and does not generate the same form of adrenaline, therefore is really no preparation for this.


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## Ediaan (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> No, it's not. It's quite removed from real fighting, on a number of levels, and does not generate the same form of adrenaline, therefore is really no preparation for this.


Perhaps not for you, Chris, but in my own defence, I've been in a lot of fights, and if not for sparring, I might have been off much worse than I was.

I agree that the form of adrenaline is definitely not the same, but nothing can really prepare you for a fight or flight situation. It all depends on what is happening and if it's going to be a fist fight, or if your life is going to depend on it.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, to be fair as well, you stated that "sparring is the best answer". And, well, it's not. It can help, but it's not actually even designed to address the problem, whereas other methods (including scenario training, adrenal response training, and more) are. These are direct simulations of fights, and are, really, the closest you can get. Sparring is preparation for sparring, or competition. Not for defending yourself.


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## jks9199 (Mar 26, 2013)

Ediaan said:


> Sparring is the best answer. We have a lot of students with other martial arts / mma experience. We put safety gear on and then one person is the WT student and the other a street fighter. That type of sparring is called controlled fighting and it's the closest I've ever come to a real fight.


No.  First, the practice you describe means that half the time (I'm assuming you trade off roles), you're practicing something you don't want to do -- namely, fight without using your principles.  That's at best wasted time... and may actually reinforce the wrong thing if you're more successful with it.

Sparring is great practice for dueling.  For real defense?  Not so good.  First, you start from a prepared, expectant position.  Second, you repeated re-engage; in real defense, once free and able, you should be escaping.  (LEOs and others with similar duties need to move to subdue and control -- but still not what sparring does.)


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## mysurvive (Mar 26, 2013)

I was wondering because this is something that has happened to me in the past while getting in random street fights. I plan on sitting in on my first WC class today and I was just wondering if that was something that WC teaches to overcome or whether it's something you have to learn yourself. very interested.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2013)

Without speaking for Wing Chun here, I fear that real knowledge of this topic is a rarity... I'd look to RBSD teachers for the best understanding. Catch is, that term is thrown around by people who have no real claim to it, so be careful who uses it... I'd suggest that there are some WC teachers who will know how to teach you (prepare you) for it, but it may not be a part of Wing Chun itself (for the record, there is a method taught in Japanese arts, but it's not really known even in those circles, or is misunderstood in many cases).


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## mysurvive (Mar 26, 2013)

would this type of adrenal training require someone to actually teach it to you, or is it something that can be self taught? Obviously someone who knows what they're doing can teach you more quickly, but _can_ you teach yourself? If so, are there resources? This is somethign I have always wondered. I used to get this tunnel vision so bad that I would literally black out and not remember the fights.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 26, 2013)

Ediaan said:


> Sparring is the best answer. We have a lot of students with other martial arts / mma experience. We put safety gear on and then one person is the WT student and the other a street fighter. That type of sparring is called controlled fighting and it's the closest I've ever come to a real fight.





			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> No, it's not. It's quite removed from real fighting, on a number of levels, and does not generate the same form of adrenaline, therefore is really no preparation for this.


I have a slightly different take on this from Chris.  Sparring can produce adrenaline, although less so as you get used to it.  However normal one-on-one sparring does nothing to lessen tunnel vision.  In fact, focusing strictly on your opponent is a normal feature of sparring.  If your reaction to adrenaline is to fall into your normal sparring mode, then you are very likely to maintain that tunnel vision in a real fight.
If you want to avoid tunnel vision when adrenaline kicks in, you have to do training exercises that force you to maintain awareness under stress.  Fight simulation drills with potential multiple attackers are one possibility, but not the only one.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2013)

mysurvive said:


> would this type of adrenal training require someone to actually teach it to you, or is it something that can be self taught? Obviously someone who knows what they're doing can teach you more quickly, but _can_ you teach yourself? If so, are there resources? This is somethign I have always wondered. I used to get this tunnel vision so bad that I would literally black out and not remember the fights.



You need someone who knows how to teach it... or, really, how to guide you through it.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I have a slightly different take on this from Chris.  Sparring can produce adrenaline, although less so as you get used to it.  However normal one-on-one sparring does nothing to lessen tunnel vision.  In fact, focusing strictly on your opponent is a normal feature of sparring.  If your reaction to adrenaline is to fall into your normal sparring mode, then you are very likely to maintain that tunnel vision in a real fight.
> If you want to avoid tunnel vision when adrenaline kicks in, you have to do training exercises that force you to maintain awareness under stress.  Fight simulation drills with potential multiple attackers are one possibility, but not the only one.



Hi Tony,

My biggest issue is that the adrenaline felt in sparring is of a completely different type... it's a gradual release, not a sudden dump, and, as a result, the effects felt are rather different. Gradually turning up the central heating doesn't prepare you to walk into flames, kinda thing...


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## K-man (Mar 26, 2013)

Ediaan said:


> Sparring is the best answer. We have a lot of students with other martial arts / mma experience. We put safety gear on and then one person is the WT student and the other a street fighter. That type of sparring is called controlled fighting and it's the closest I've ever come to a real fight.



I'm not sure how much sparring helps, especially when you become confident in the situation.   The adrenaline released during sparring is about the same as you get in a gym workout. If you are sparring someone new and you suddenly realise he might hurt you, those levels will increase.  We are talking about 10 times the level of adrenaline in the system than when we are resting.  

Now, when we are exposed to a life threatening event we get the adrenal dump syndrome. The adrenalin level goes up to 50 times the normal level. That is about five times the level you achieve in sparring. You won't get near that level in competition fighting and the side effects are much greater. Adrenal dump is where you lose peripheral vision. You might even lose your colour vision and hearing. Your heart rate can go way over 200 bpm and it is possible you can faint because the blood flow is actually compromised. Also your sense of time changes.



Chris Parker said:


> No, it's not. It's quite removed from real fighting, on a number of levels, and does not generate the same form of adrenaline, therefore is really no preparation for this.


So this is not really correct. It is true that there is adrenalin and there is noradrenaline but they are not secreted at different times. Under stress we get numerous transmitters released. It is the level of stress that determines how much is released.

So I agree with Chris that sparring probably has little to do with preparing to deal with adrenal response. Even using the 'controlled fighting' or the 'Red Man' will not give you the adrenalin levels required to even feel the adrenal response.  :asian:


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah, I was referring to the difference between a slow release and a dump, rather than adrenaline and noradrenaline... so we're in agreement, yeah?


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## K-man (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, I was referring to the difference between a slow release and a dump, rather than adrenaline and noradrenaline... so we're in agreement, yeah?


Quite right sir.   :asian:


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## Drasken (Mar 26, 2013)

I learned through simulated fighting, having to forcefully calm myself and react to any situation that caused an adrenaline dump etc. Oh... and pain.
This training has saved me several times as I now utilize the adrenaline, but immediately become calm and do what I have to do. But in training if I ever let myself stay too focused on my one opponent, and there was nobody else to attack me even though I wasn't looking, my instructor would sucker punch me just to remind me to keep alert.
But keep in mind that for gun disarms I was given a pair of goggles and told to disarm someone that was trying to "mug" me with a high quality airsoft pistol.

I believe everyone should go through training to react differently to an adrenaline dump though. It has saved me in more than just fighting. Once I was choking and nobody around me reacted. Rather than panic and hope someone helped before I passed out (while using more oxygen due to panic) I went through the steps. 1. Cough. Didn't work. 2. Try to dislodge with water. Didn't work, full blockage. At this point I realized there wasn't anything ound me to aid in giving myself the Heimlich so I calmly reached down my throat and pulled out the blockage.
Same concept of keeping calm and alert, not panicking, goes hand in hand with fighting. If you train yourself to react this way when encountering ANY situation where "fight or flight" is present you will find it to be amazingly useful.

That being said, sparring is useful for many things. But training for an adrenaline dump and following reaction is not one of them. It is possible to simulate a situation and get the same kind of adrenaline. Our military does it all the time. I go to a gun range that is a 360 degree screen you step into with a fake ( but very realistic feeling ) gun. Logically you know it's fake. But you still react as though it were real.
That is the way you should train to stop the tunnel vision. You'd be surprised how quickly most people make progress while doing this.


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## Eric_H (Mar 26, 2013)

Drasken said:


> I learned through simulated fighting, having to forcefully calm myself and react to any situation that caused an adrenaline dump etc. Oh... and pain.
> This training has saved me several times as I now utilize the adrenaline, but immediately become calm and do what I have to do. But in training if I ever let myself stay too focused on my one opponent, and there was nobody else to attack me even though I wasn't looking, my instructor would sucker punch me just to remind me to keep alert.
> But keep in mind that for gun disarms I was given a pair of goggles and told to disarm someone that was trying to "mug" me with a high quality airsoft pistol.



One of the best drills I used preparing for adrenaline dump was in sword fighting:

You would have one attacker that would engage you first with a pre-scripted attack. 
You would be surrounded by everyone else. At any time one or more of them would yell and attack you in one of a few pre-scripted ways. 

Never knew where it was coming from or how hard, just that you were in a mass of people and any one of them could come at you. Everyone freaked out their first time, but it made a big difference after a few sessions.


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## Ediaan (Mar 27, 2013)

Perhaps we should think of getting a qualified RBSD instructor to teach us as well, as Chris Parker has stated. It did not occur to me that it might give us a more realistic adrenal dump / release. Thanks for all your thoughts!


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## Chris Parker (Mar 27, 2013)

I'll give a clue as to one example of experiencing a real adrenal surge/dump in training... this is not an example of training to handle it (although it is touched on in the second half of the clip, that's really just acclimatization), it's an example of the difference between a real dump and not. Oh, and being very much RBSD (and, well, Deane's an Aussie...), there's a language warning here. But, really, the usage of language is an essential part of this training concept, as language and tonality alone can trigger an adrenaline dump, as well as it being, well, realistic.


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## RTKDCMB (May 17, 2013)

Some questions:

1) Was your fellow student aware that the jerk shouting at him had friends with him that might get involved if he goes down?
2) What prevented your fellow student from moving away or calming the jerk down with words that forced him to move forward and attack down the center?
3) How many times, and for how long, did your fellow student punch the jerk before he went down?
4) Did your fellow student try to prevent the jerk from getting within punching distance or did he try to use a longer range technique such as a kick first?

When someone attacks you and you have to physically defend yourself you need to finish off the attacker quickly and efficiently without using excessive force because you may only have a very small window of opportunity. If your fellow student had finished off the jerk with one or two strikes instead of many then the guy's buddy might not have had the opportunity to blindside your fellow student. 

You need to be aware of your surroundings from the outset, not just as you are striking your opponent. If you can finish off the attacker swiftly and decisively then that can be an incentive for his friends to think twice before attacking you. One of the reasons the guy's buddy might have got involved is because he saw his friend getting pummeled. If your fellow student had neutralized the jerk with, say a single strike for example, and moved away then the the guy's buddy would have less of an incentive to attack your fellow student because it would not prevent anything from happening to his friend (because it had already finished happening).


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## mograph (May 17, 2013)

It's too bad about your friend, but it would be great if more clubs practiced the art of avoiding fights, or at least managing them, allowing the opponent to back off without losing face. 
Some things come to mind, in order of escalation (this does not apply to criminal/drugged/psychotic types):
- being aware of one's surroundings
- minding one's own business and not aggravating possibly violent people
- defusing a possible fight by admitting you were in the wrong (even when you weren't) or by making neutral statements ("holy cow, that sounds bad -- let's take a look at the damage") with hands up in a "whoa, buddy, I'm sorry" stance, but up just in case ... and looking for potential assailant partners that may be lurking about
- if the other guy hits, to deflect in such a way as to push him away, spin him around to show that you can control him, resist him without escalating it
- if he persists, and this does not work, to get in one or two hits and move away, again allowing him a chance to back off
- if he persists again, take him down, but then back off and try to get away

Returning to topic, taking this kind of staged approach might stave off the adrenalin dump and give the martial artist a chance to look for options (e.g. shouting "hey you in the red shirt, call 911"). I just think that a club, if it teaches street self-defense, should teach the _entire_ process, to avoid just the kind of problem your friend ran into. Of course, this generally applies to angry, irritated opponents, not criminal/drugged/psycho types.

That's just an opinion from someone who has avoided conflict pretty well so far. It gets easier as I get older, because fewer people see me as a threat.


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## Transk53 (Jul 14, 2013)

Being an ex doorman, I have seen this type of thing time and time again. The good thing is (like myself as a teenager), you do learn from that. Group mentatlity = one leader whom is supposed to be hard as nails, then the cowards in the background, with maybe one quiet one hanging back. If you go into a fight head strong, you will lose. If you cannot walk away and have to defend yourself, scan the surroundings. If you have tunnel vision (like myself), do not waste time on the target, they are all targets!! If you are intent on attacking, Don't!!! Goad first and walk away etc..........


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## Mauthos (Jul 15, 2013)

One thing that my students have found has helped them out is the old 1 in the middle surrounded by all the remaining students. I quietly give the surrounding students a number that the one in the centre is unaware of and then simply call out a number. The corresponding person then attacks. I do not like using pre-scripted attacks therefore the surrounding students chose what they want to attack with and the guy in the centre has to react.

The main purpose is for the student in the centre to try and avoid, counter, block or pre-empt the inital attack and then continue to take them down by any means, finishing with some form of stomp etc to signify that they have disabled the attacker. As this is going on I may call out another number, therefore they have to always be aware that another attacker is coming. Although, I do not think this necessarily helps with the adrenaline dump effect etc as they are expecting additional attacks I think it trains them to always be aware of their surroundings when they are in a fight situation and hopefully to be prepared for it.

I also decrease the time between calling the numbers so eventually the student in the centre has to face multiple opponents and normally I end the exercise when the student has been overwhelmed. For me I think, as stated previously, this keeps them aware of their surroundings and tries to eliminate them forming a tunnel vision perspective, but also once they are effectively fighting a losing battle it does pump their adrenaline up and force them to deal with the consequences of what that entails.

Anyway, it seems to help my students, but definitely not the be all and end all.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Jul 16, 2013)

Biggest thing I can say is what most people on here are saying. Sparring, or "lat-sau" (same thing).

Most WT people don't do it. And that is a FACT! Especially in the US, we are lazy as fart.

Another thing that is very important, we do not kneel or go to the ground.

If you really want to strike somebody on the ground, curb stomp his ***. When we are fighting stand up, do we kick to the face or punch to the foot? Hell no, that would be impractical, so why are we doing it on the ground (where we shouldn't even be!)?

Stay off the ground, and keep your wits about you.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 16, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Biggest thing I can say is what most people on here are saying. Sparring, or "lat-sau" (same thing).
> 
> Most WT people don't do it. And that is a FACT! Especially in the US, we are lazy as fart.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, if someones just been knocked down their head doesnt stay in one place long enough for you to stomp or kick it. The perk of leaning over and grabbing/dragging or mounting is that the other person more often than not cant move so good.

If theyre unconscious, you should probably be leaving.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Jul 17, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Unfortunately, if someones just been knocked down their head doesnt stay in one place long enough for you to stomp or kick it. The perk of leaning over and grabbing/dragging or mounting is that the other person more often than not cant move so good.
> 
> If theyre unconscious, you should probably be leaving.



Thats the problem; We're talking about multiple attackers. So c'mon.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 17, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Thats the problem; We're talking about multiple attackers. So c'mon.



All the more reason to be able to actually dispatch the ones you need to dispatch rather than getting beaten because of arbitrary rules youve drilled into yourself


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Jul 29, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> All the more reason to be able to actually dispatch the ones you need to dispatch rather than getting beaten because of arbitrary rules youve drilled into yourself



Your speaking quite ignorantly. If there are MULTIPLE ATTACKERS; LIKE THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT.... It is a bad idea to go to the ground in any way shape or form... WHY? Because now you are a fixed target, in which your opponentSSSSSS can SUUURRROOUNNNDDDD YOU.

Unless your packing (a gun) or a sword; your not going to "Dispatch" your opponents in one mighty blow; you are however going to give them an epic opprotunity to knock the puddin outta you while your rolling on the ground with ONE of the MANY guys you are fighting.

Did I make the point yet punkin?

This isn't about "aribitrary rules" i've drilled into myself; it's about surviving. And when you go to the ground, you don't survive. You need to keep moving. The best advantage you have against multiple attackers is your legs... carrying you away in a very quick manner. Unless you have an equalizer (gun) you have no business trying to take on multiple attackers. 

Seems to me like you watch too many movies bro.


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## jks9199 (Jul 29, 2013)

Let's keep things friendly, OK?

I agree, generally going to the ground when you're being attacked by a group is a terrible idea.  That doesn't mean you won't find yourself knocked on your butt, though.  So having some idea of what to do there is probably pretty wise.

And, especially if you're dealing with multiple attackers, you'd best be trying to hurt 'em quick and effectively, and that means being able to rely on your punches or kicks to actually do damage.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Jul 29, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Let's keep things friendly, OK?
> 
> I agree, generally going to the ground when you're being attacked by a group is a terrible idea.  That doesn't mean you won't find yourself knocked on your butt, though.  So having some idea of what to do there is probably pretty wise.
> 
> And, especially if you're dealing with multiple attackers, you'd best be trying to hurt 'em quick and effectively, and that means being able to rely on your punches or kicks to actually do damage.



I agree with ya; But he's just being a troll. And a d-bag for no reason. So somebody needs to either tell him to stop acting like a child; or people are gonna keep treating him like one. Whenever I post something of what I feel has value; He feels the incessant need to be a dick. Look at all the other forums he and I post in. Trying to contribute something and have a jackass come right behind me and play around just to stir the pot. 

He's not contributing. He's just being a pill. Well, maybe he's just ****ing stupid. Either way your an admin, tell him to stop trolling so hard when people are having a discussion.

Sometimes I'm not the nicest; Or the most diplomatic. But I don't troll on people. Ya I have a very opinionated view and I try to keep my cool. In another post I tried to de-escalate the ********; but he just keeps bringing it.


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## jks9199 (Jul 29, 2013)

If you have a problem with a post, use the Report to Moderator button and let us know about.  Describe the problem; ideally let us know which rule you think has been violated or specifically what the problem is.  "He's a big dummy" doesn't help us; "He's insulting me" or "He's a troll because he's following every one of my posts with a rude post" will. The button's a triangular shape with an exclamation point in it at the bottom of the post.  (It kind of makes me think of a yield sign...)

Our policies here are that members of the Staff involved in threads as posters don't moderate the threads, so I'm not actively involved in the moderation of this thread.  I would suggest that it is possible to disagree, and even be opinionated, without being rude and insulting about it.


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## geezer (Jul 29, 2013)

Wow, reading some of the posts here, I discovered that since the forum automatically replaces certain  taboo words asterisks, then --although we can't use obscenity-- _we can use asterisks_ to the same effect. 

For example, as Master Ken says, *"Your art is ********!"* Furthermore, you are a first class ******. And everybody here can go **** ***, right? OK. I admit I really didn't write anything rude. ...I just hit the asterisk key a bunch of times. But seriously. If you start seeing your posts coming up with a lot of ****, maybe you should get a clue and re-edit your comments. Otherwise maybe you are acting like a ****. Just a thought ....:wink:


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 30, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> I agree with ya; But he's just being a troll. And a d-bag for no reason. So somebody needs to either tell him to stop acting like a child; or people are gonna keep treating him like one. Whenever I post something of what I feel has value; He feels the incessant need to be a dick. Look at all the other forums he and I post in. Trying to contribute something and have a jackass come right behind me and play around just to stir the pot.
> 
> He's not contributing. He's just being a pill. Well, maybe he's just ****ing stupid. Either way your an admin, tell him to stop trolling so hard when people are having a discussion.
> 
> Sometimes I'm not the nicest; Or the most diplomatic. But I don't troll on people. Ya I have a very opinionated view and I try to keep my cool. In another post I tried to de-escalate the ********; but he just keeps bringing it.



troll.
d-bag.
child.
dick.
jackass.
pill.
****ing stupid.

Congratulations. You just out scored me on the *** scale.
I think you missed the point the "be friendly" was also aimed at you, "punkin".

Might want to read the site rules. I'd say again, but it's obvious this would be your first time sweetie honey punkin pie.
Here's a hint: If you feel people are being an *** to you, it might just be you that's to blame.  I know, not possible right, 'punkin'? You cant possibly be the reason people are pointing at you and laughing. But, then again, you can't avoid mirrors all your life.

Too busy to stalk you (which if you feel is happening is  rule violation, which you'd know if you had read them), and should be reported (which you' know how to do if you'd read the rules). You can also put the person on "Ignore" (again, rules, read them, your mothers a hamster, etc, etc), or just grow up and tune out the BS (large bowl of porridge, $5 long time at Subway). That last one might require a higher maturity level than shown so far Dick.  

A wise man once said there is a difference between reacting and responding.  I wonder, which it will be here, and if you understand the difference?
Did I mention: Site Rules



> So somebody needs to either tell him to stop acting like a child; or people are gonna keep treating him like one.



Might be true. But someone needs to tell _YOU_ to stop being an *******.  Since you didn't get the mod note was aimed in part at you, I'll be the blunt Clue-By-Four you need.

_*STOP. BEING. AN. ****ING. ***. ***!
*_
If I need to make it simpler, just let me know. 

Have a "Nice" day.


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## Kframe (Jul 30, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> That happens with adrenaline. The only way to train against it is to train with adrenaline (which is not the same as sparring, or many things sometimes thought to be the same), simply telling people to "be more aware", or even "check around you" isn't enough.



I don't want to pick a argument, but Chris Parker I have noticed in serveral threads that when you post in disagreement with someone, you never give details or examples, resulting in people trying to argue with you in a vain attempt to get you post more details other then your disagreement.

So for the rest of us can you give details as to what proper adrenaline response training, is comprised of and looks like? I for one know that sparring has indeed helped me to deal with pressure. Not that it is the only thing we do, but I feel it has helped me.  So if you can post DETAILS about what proper(in your opinion) adrenaline response training is comprised of and looks like, I and many more would be more then grateful.  

I think we can all agree that sparring is only one part of the equation. Honestly I look at sparring as a good way to get used to pressure, and I feel that it is also good conditioning.(for me anyways)  I do not think things like static start drills and the endlessly useless one and three steps that TKD uses actually help prepare anyone for self defense. 

Your one of the most well versed Martial Artists on this forum, and respected by many. I don't want to pick a fight, its just you post a disagreement, often repeatedly so and then don't follow up with details. So please, give us details.


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## geezer (Jul 31, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I don't want to pick a argument, but Chris Parker I have noticed in serveral threads that when you post in disagreement with someone, you never give details or examples, resulting in people trying to argue with you in a vain attempt to get you post more details other then your disagreement.



_Kframe_ are you nuts? Chris is the _grandmaster_ of picking apart opposing viewpoints line by line, going after each perceived error in what can be annoyingly fine detail. He's thorough. He's merciless. And he never gives up. If I've learned one thing in the six-odd years I've been posting on this forum. Never, *NEVER* argue with Chris. :wink:


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## Kframe (Jul 31, 2013)

Problem is geezer, when I see him post, I see a lot of words, that all basicly say the same thing. "I don't agree", then fails to actually provide substantive details and information.

When he does his line by line critique of peoples points, they only amount to him saying how wrong the poster is. Yet  I never see him post any information about why they are wrong, with details of the why, not details of how much he disagrees.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 22, 2013)

Sorry, missed this on my sabbatical... 

Kframe, you did read the posts after the one you had a problem with, yeah? The ones where I answered other posters requests for clarification? If you have a question for me, just ask. If you don't understand my answers, ask again, I'll rephrase. But my posts that you read as just saying "you're wrong" aren't that... it's just that, in many cases, all I'm doing there is pointing out incorrect statements... which has the automatic implication that the alternate is more accurate. To say that the sky isn't green doesn't require a scientific explanation as to the various wavelengths of light as per their degree of dispersal throughout the atmosphere, surely. If something is wrong, it's wrong. You want clarification, ask.


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