# The Pre-Emptive Strike



## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Ok, I know I probably shouldnt start this thread, but I'll do it anyway!!    Hopefully, it wont cause too much trouble.  Considering we've had people post threads with pictures, people asking about Honor or Freedom, etc. I thought I'd start something along the same lines.

Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and * after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away, etc* if you honestly felt that this guy was going to take a swing at you, which of the following would you do.

A- Wait until you were 100% sure that he was going to hit you, wait until he started to draw back, throw the punch and then block, or

B- As soon as you saw him start to move, hit him, and end the situation.

Again, keeping in mind the people standing around possibly watching this happen.

Any thoughts?  i'm sure I dont have to tell many of you what I would do!!  

Mike


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## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

If I have evidence that someone has obtained mass quantities of uranium, and is hiding it in their pockets, then I get to kick the crap out of them, then go to the hospital to help them rehabilitate, while stealing all their oil.    :lol: 

Couldn't resist!  :boing2:


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## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> If I have evidence that someone has obtained mass quantities of uranium, and is hiding it in their pockets, then I get to kick the crap out of them, then go to the hospital to help them rehabilitate, while stealing all their oil.    :lol:
> 
> Couldn't resist!  :boing2:



 :boing2:  :boing2: 

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Ok, I know I probably shouldnt start this thread, but I'll do it anyway!!    Hopefully, it wont cause too much trouble.  Considering we've had people post threads with pictures, people asking about Honor or Freedom, etc. I thought I'd start something along the same lines.
> 
> Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and * after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away, etc* if you honestly felt that this guy was going to take a swing at you, which of the following would you do.
> 
> ...


Once it was clear to me I had to fight, I would fight. Screw waiting for him to get ready; however, sometimes we create our own predicaments... Mike :asian: .
Sean


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## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Once it was clear to me I had to fight, I would fight. Screw waiting for him to get ready; however, sometimes we create our own predicaments... Mike :asian: .
> Sean



Yup, good point!  I just thought it would be interesting to get a few more viewpoints, considering that there are some who seem to think that defending yourself, without making sure that your a** is covered is wrong.  The first thing on my mind is going to be to make sure that I dont get hit.  Worrying about the cops, lawyers, judge and jury will not be on my mind at that given moment.

Mike


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## arnisandyz (May 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and * after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away, etc* if you honestly felt that this guy was going to take a swing at you, which of the following would you do.
> 
> If you tried talking to de-esculating the situation 'I don't want to fight, etc..." it shows to the bystanders your point of view.  One possibility is to throw elbows up in a defensive posture "NO, don't hit me!" when in reality you are targeting the incoming strike or moving to inside position, covering and swinging elbows.  "It looked like he was just trying not to get hit"  says on bystander.


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## Rick Wade (May 12, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> If you tried talking to de-esculating the situation 'I don't want to fight, etc..." it shows to the bystanders your point of view.  One possibility is to throw elbows up in a defensive posture "NO, don't hit me!" when in reality you are targeting the incoming strike or moving to inside position, covering and swinging elbows.  "It looked like he was just trying not to get hit"  says on bystander.




I'm with you take a fighting stance with the exception of:  instead of having your hands in a fist open them and turn them palm out in a non confritational way (as to say I don't want any beef).  this will alow you maximum ability to pull off any technique and still look defensive.


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## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> I'm with you take a fighting stance with the exception of:  instead of having your hands in a fist open them and turn them palm out in a non confritational way (as to say I don't want any beef).  this will alow you maximum ability to pull off any technique and still look defensive.



Yes, I like that also.  Kind of the same principle Tony Blauer uses with his 'Spear' method that he teaches.

Mike


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## someguy (May 12, 2004)

Well you can't really be sure they will attack unless you read minds.  I can't say what I'd do but I probably would wait for it.  Just in case I miss read the situation.  That doesn't mean I would sit there with my hands in my pockets.  I also wouldn't put up my gaurd.  Really I'm not sure wht I would do.


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## Touch Of Death (May 12, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Well you can't really be sure they will attack unless you read minds.  I can't say what I'd do but I probably would wait for it.  Just in case I miss read the situation.  That doesn't mean I would sit there with my hands in my pockets.  I also wouldn't put up my gaurd.  Really I'm not sure wht I would do.


Most people telegraph their intentions, you had better find a place for your hands.
sean (www.iemat.com)


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## Gary Crawford (May 12, 2004)

I'm probably not the best example to follow,but intuition plays a big part.I have been the first to strike a couple of times when I knew the other person wasn't there to talk.It's sorta like this:Bad person " Hey mothSMACK!!!"When the attacker in "known",you know what their intentions are.Some people just can't be reasoned with and why waste your time and give up the suprise advantage if that's the case?


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## Phoenix44 (May 12, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> If I have evidence that someone has obtained mass quantities of uranium, and is hiding it in their pockets, then I get to kick the crap out of them, then go to the hospital to help them rehabilitate, while stealing all their oil.    :lol:
> 
> Couldn't resist!  :boing2:


 Hey, Tulisan, what happens when, after you kick the crap out of the guy, you find out he DIDN'T have any uranium in his pocket?  Do you STILL get to steal all his oil?

(Yeah, I couldn't resist either!)


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 12, 2004)

I've used both hands up, palms facing potential attacker, in an "I surrender" type position, actually planning on using them for defense and counter; and the "thinker" position...one arm folded across the front of the body in the horizontal plane, the other elbow resting on the folded arm, with the hand set to the chin. Provides check positioning for the lower body and upper body/head; most untrained fighters telegraph like heck, and if you're hands are even remotely up you should have a good chance at getting a piece of their initial blow covered.  The remainder?  Most folks can't seem to hit real hard, either.  Then you trash 'em.

Dave


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## Tony (May 13, 2004)

If there is no other way and you are cornered, the guy is really in your face then he needs to be taught a lesson! I know from a friend of mine he has sometimes been in this situation in a club and nearly had to bottle someone. I know his female cousin did this to another girl, very nasty!


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Well you can't really be sure they will attack unless you read minds.  I can't say what I'd do but I probably would wait for it.  Just in case I miss read the situation.  That doesn't mean I would sit there with my hands in my pockets.  I also wouldn't put up my gaurd.  Really I'm not sure wht I would do.



Well, I would think that if someone was in your face, yelling at you, calling you names, there is a good chance that if the guy went this far, that he may take a swing at you.  I'd at least have my hands up in a "Hey, I'm sorry man, I dont want any trouble" fashion.  Palms out, while at the same time, taking a small step back to get into a better stance.  At least by doing that, there is something between my face and his fist.

Just a thought.

Mike


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> I'm probably not the best example to follow,but intuition plays a big part.I have been the first to strike a couple of times when I knew the other person wasn't there to talk.It's sorta like this:Bad person " Hey mothSMACK!!!"When the attacker in "known",you know what their intentions are.Some people just can't be reasoned with and why waste your time and give up the suprise advantage if that's the case?



Good point.  The sucker punch comes to my mind here.  

Mike


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## axioma (May 13, 2004)

Hello all,

I might be wrong here, but a lot of you talk like you've actually been in a couple of fights here. Is there so much more criminality where you come from ? I live in quite a big city, but the moment I sense something is wrong (like some of you have mentionned: you know when somebody wants to hit you, they give way too many signals), I just split. Not even running, just calmly walking away, and this has always worked for me.

Once, when I was up against a little gang, i just dodged the first attack (dodge it, not block it) and than just ran.

so generally you could say I'm all for the principle: 'when you get into a fight your true self-defence has already failed.'

About the question now: Should I ever be unable to avoid a fight, I would not use a pre-emptive strike. it doesn't suit me as principle. It's like you all said: when somebody really wants to hit you they signal. This gives you enough time to
a) dodge the attack
b) prepare a block for the attack. 

So that's what I'd do. Well, that's what I'd say I'd do. I've luckily never been in a situation where I've had to think about such things. It is a nice question to ponder however.

cheers,
 :asian: 
axioma


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## loki09789 (May 13, 2004)

There is nothing in the wording or intent of use of force/deadly force laws that mandate that you have to go down a checklist of lesser responses OR that you have to give the other guy(s) the first shot before you can respond with physical force.  Generally, there is a duty to retreat either stated or implied in the wording with the stipulation that by doing so you are not putting yourself in further danger.  

Biggest thing is - whether you strike pre-emptively or not - to make sure the threat is reasonably obvious to you (as well as others when you have to deal with the legal stuff) and that your responding force is appropriate (including when you stop).

If someone is layering verbal threats along with impeding my escape mixed in with other factors that can stack up to a reasonable threat, I will use a pre-emptive strike as a means to create an escape route.  Continuums are not checklists, you can jump from step 1 to step 20 if need be or start at step 10 instead of one depending on the situation.


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

axioma said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## axioma (May 13, 2004)

Hi again,

These are good points your making. Especially, the best defence is a good offence seems very true.
However we have to keep something in mind. Just as some martial arts suit some people better than others (I for instance like my sturdy, hard shotokan karate, you might like a completely different fighting system), some fighting styles suit some people better than others. From what I make up of this thread, the pre-emptive strike is definately a good method for you. Not to say it wouldn't work for me as well, but I personally prefer to let the other person make the first move.

And this may seem strange for someone who thoroughly enjoys martials arts training: I really don't like hitting people (outside of the dojo that is), even when some may say they deserve it. That's why I shall always opt for running away.

I hope this clarifies my earlier post

cheerfully yours,
 :asian: 
axioma


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

axioma said:
			
		

> Hi again,
> 
> These are good points your making. Especially, the best defence is a good offence seems very true.
> However we have to keep something in mind. Just as some martial arts suit some people better than others (I for instance like my sturdy, hard shotokan karate, you might like a completely different fighting system), some fighting styles suit some people better than others. From what I make up of this thread, the pre-emptive strike is definately a good method for you. Not to say it wouldn't work for me as well, but I personally prefer to let the other person make the first move.
> ...



Thank you again for the reply.  You're right and I have said the same thing many times myself, and that being that we all train for different reasons.  Everybody has their own way of doing things.  As long as what you're doing is working for you and as long as you're happy with it, that should be all that matters. :asian: 

Mike


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## MA-Caver (May 13, 2004)

I agree with the others that stated if there was NO way out then absolutely throw the first punch/kick whatever! Law states that self-defense is when the first person touches. Even if it's poking their finger in your chest. However! Waiting for that first (and possibly LAST) punch from the antagonist might not be a smart idea.
I was sparring with someone and we got to talking about my particular style (his was ninjitusu... mine JKD). I told him that basically I will NOT allow anyone to touch me without my (spoken or unspoken) permission. To illustrate I asked him to (slow) punch me with my intent not to let him "touch me". He did and I parried.
He said: Well I touched you.
I replied: NO you didn't. I initiated first contact when I parried your blow. 
Doing the movement(s) again I explained that by raising my arm to parry and my touching his arm (first) I was touching him first. 
Point I'm trying to make is that in defense or offense, in a "for-real" fight I will do what I can to prevent the person from touching me (if I see that he is about to). From behind I canna do nothing until contact is made and my response will be appropriate to the amount of force used. 
Yeah, I could be knocked out with one blow from behind. Just don't be around when I wake up. 
But of course there is _always_ a way out of any confrontation. 


> "The first man to raise a fist, is the first one to run out of ideas" Herbert George Wells


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

axioma said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I might be wrong here, but a lot of you talk like you've actually been in a couple of fights here. Is there so much more criminality where you come from ? I live in quite a big city, but the moment I sense something is wrong (like some of you have mentionned: you know when somebody wants to hit you, they give way too many signals), I just split. Not even running, just calmly walking away, and this has always worked for me.
> 
> ...


So if you have to defend your self against two attackers, you feel it is bad principle to take one out before they get it toguether? (lets say you lack obvious cover for the sake of argument)


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## c2kenpo (May 13, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Ok, I know I probably shouldnt start this thread, but I'll do it anyway!!    Hopefully, it wont cause too much trouble.  Considering we've had people post threads with pictures, people asking about Honor or Freedom, etc. I thought I'd start something along the same lines.
> 
> Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and * after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away, etc* if you honestly felt that this guy was going to take a swing at you, which of the following would you do.
> 
> ...



Mike mike mike,................ and you say I start things up!!!!!

Well I have a two-fold answer to this.
A - Never ever sure that someone is really going to swing till they do.
B - Obviously he was doing something. And if necessary yes i would.

Now..some guidelines...range and environment of course all add to the factors and we have all been down that road so..for an example....(not that I have done this  :uhyeah: )

An altercation occured and I placed both hands up in front of my face not the envorinment was crowded and noisy After warning the person that I just wanted to drop the subject he moved forward toward me..distance was roughly 2ft apart, I dont recall what he was doing with his arms it never mattered, I dropped with my right foot forward hand still up and hammered my right elbow right into his sternum. My hands were still open in front of my face never moved ,basicly knocking the wind out of him and suddenly WHOA!!! Hey ?? You alright??? He tripped on something!! Might have had too much to drink. Can you help him get back to his seat...great thanks.......(slowly headed for the door).

Fun yes..was it the right decision?? Doesn't matter, for me it was. I did not want to be in an altercation that involved me having to be aware of 360 degrees of anything and everything. I got home safe and I'm sure whomever my agressor was had one solid case of indegestion that night!


BTW Axioma Welcome to the Forum and I love your posts! Good ideas and right along with what I teach. However as always we can run away all the time. 

And Mike (MJS) Running?????...Always an option...Gimme Three Steps Gimme Three Steps Mister and you 'll never see me no more.....FOR SURE!!  :boing2: 


David Gunzburg


And he was afraid he might start trouble......(shakes head)


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## Rick Wade (May 13, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Yes, I like that also.  Kind of the same principle Tony Blauer uses with his 'Spear' method that he teaches.
> 
> Mike



Thats compliments of Mr. Pick  Like in Delayed Sword (for instance) no one is going to come up on the street and just punch you.  You will have some sort of warning.

Respectfully


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## clapping_tiger (May 14, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> There is nothing in the wording or intent of use of force/deadly force laws that mandate that you have to go down a checklist of lesser responses OR that you have to give the other guy(s) the first shot before you can respond with physical force.  Generally, there is a duty to retreat either stated or implied in the wording with the stipulation that by doing so you are not putting yourself in further danger.
> 
> Biggest thing is - whether you strike pre-emptively or not - to make sure the threat is reasonably obvious to you (as well as others when you have to deal with the legal stuff) and that your responding force is appropriate (including when you stop).
> 
> If someone is layering verbal threats along with impeding my escape mixed in with other factors that can stack up to a reasonable threat, I will use a pre-emptive strike as a means to create an escape route.  Continuums are not checklists, you can jump from step 1 to step 20 if need be or start at step 10 instead of one depending on the situation.



JUst to add to this, you need to be able to communicate clearly to the police officers excatly what events brought you to the conclusion that you had not other choice but to defend yourself and strike first. 

I am all for the pre-emptive strike. Why wait till he throws the first attack. Most people don't just throw one punch and stop. They come in swinging. and if you are that confident in your abilties to let someone come in and attack first, hey, more power to you. But to me it's not worth waiting and finding out. End the situation and go home.


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## loki09789 (May 14, 2004)

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> JUst to add to this, you need to be able to communicate clearly to the police officers excatly what events brought you to the conclusion that you had not other choice but to defend yourself and strike first.


I have said this before too - language and bearing are just as important as behavior here.  Having a lawyer to help with this stuff as quickly as possible if a situation is helpful too.  They are the black belts of the legal arena.


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## Zoran (May 20, 2004)

There was a similar thread from 2 years ago in the Kenpo forum that may be of interest.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1581


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 20, 2004)

I like what C2 said about heading for the door after the altercation.  Even back in high school we had the sense not to stick around the scene of the crime, or the vice-principal will dial in on the crowd and escort you to the office.

Modern technology makes it harder to get away with some silly altercations, but supports you in others.  I watch the news here in LA, where everynight someone got caught on tape doing something, in front of witnesses, and the police still have to ask for the help of the public in identifying the perp.

If you think there's no other way out...hit first, hit hard, hit fast, then dash outta there and resume an innocous activity somewhere else.  Then, if the dooky does hit the fan, practice your Ollie North skills: Deny, Deny, Deny.  In the end, it's your word against someone elses. People in L.A. get caught on tape breaking the law, and still walk.

What's that favortie quote for professional red light runners? "It's only illegal if you get caught."

Tongue-in-cheek,

Dr. Dave


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## Bammx2 (May 20, 2004)

ma gran'daddy always said...."there ain't no way to get out of a good butt-kickin...all you can do is hope to get in the first lick..it might make all the difference."

My judo teacher(r.i.p) said.."let them throw the first punch..then its self-defence."
I did that once....didn't remember much after that


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## tumpaiguy (May 21, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and *after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away, *
> 
> 
> Mike


If you try and walk away and he doesn't let you? That is physical enough for me to defend myself.  Turn your back to him, still paying attention of course.  If he doesn't follow, great.  If he does he would catch a mule kick that would knock him into the crowd.


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## Flatlander (May 28, 2004)

For me, there are two possibilities, assuming that I am aware the situation has escalated to the possibility of attack:

1) other guy is smaller than me - wait for the attack.

2) other guy is same size or bigger - attack first.

As most that would be the agressor would likely be larger than me, as I'm rather slim, most times would have me strike pre-emptively.


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## michaeledward (May 28, 2004)

I am probably too old, and not nearly skilled enough to answer this question... but ... I'm going to take a shot at it anyway.

The art I practice is the art of 'Self-Defense', not 'Self-Offense'. The first thing I do is block an attack, which allows me to position the attackers body to where I can inflict pain and damage.

Now ... If I was as good as I hope to be someday, I would always have the luxury of waiting for the aggressor to take the first strike, then counter.

There is a story about two Japanese Martial Arts Masters facing each other with swords; they stood facing each other in a 'Ready Position', until the match was called a 'Draw'.  Each knew that by making the first aggressive move, they would create an opening upon which their opponent could capitalize.
Put me in the 'WAIT' column.

Mike


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## Flatlander (May 29, 2004)

The fact is, if one is not yet skillful enough to be certain to be able to handle the situation as it comes, from a purely defensive context, then the pre-emptive strike may give one the opportunity to escape if possible, or mount a more serious offence if necessary.  If one doesn't train to attack the attack, one will never use it.


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## OC Kid (Jun 1, 2004)

Its been my experiance that intution lets me know whether this person is going to attack or not.
Now with that being said there are alot of intangables that lead to the decision to strike.
The circumstances of the event;
,  Is he a school yard type bully,
 is he drunk, stoned or other wise intoxicated
are his buddies egging him on
is it a spur of the moment rage
is he really angry at you or something else.

The place of the event;
outside a resturant
inna bar
inna casino
in the movies
driving down the street (road rage)
Any more with the advent of cell phones Ill dial 911 and let the police handle it.
With the use of guns Ill walk away if I can.

Once I was going to the  movies i was driving through the parking lot and some guy just threw me a finger. he was walking behind some lady and appeared to be up set (maybe a lovers quarrel) unthinking I threw him one back, he came up to yelling and screaming and tried to push me which I just blocked. he realized I was alot faster than him and might be trained ...anywayhe looked at me puzzled and walked away.
The GF i was with who is a brown belt asked me why I didnt side kick him. I told her he was probably mad at his wife/ gf and was taking it out on me. Anyway this way he could go home work it out with her and we could enjoy the movie.
But I knew it was going to happen that way ...why intuition.


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## Flatlander (Jun 1, 2004)

Don't get me wrong here OC, I believe you.  But for myself, its very difficult to trust intuition.  Maybe I just have not been able to prove its reliability with myself thus far.  Nonetheless, intuition is not a tool upon which I can rely.  Therefore, the pre-emptive strike will be more prevalent in my response.  Though, having said that, how do I know when its time to get pre-emptive?  Maybe that is intuition talking to me?  Clearly I need to think about this some more....


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## loki09789 (Jun 1, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Its been my experiance that intution lets me know whether this person is going to attack or not.
> Now with that being said there are alot of intangables that lead to the decision to strike.
> The circumstances of the event;
> , Is he a school yard type bully,
> ...


I agree that 'that little itch should be telling you something' but it is a hard thing to use as a justified use of force defense if LEO get involved.  Layer that intuition with a sound force continuum/penal law and you will be covered better.


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## MJS (Jun 1, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong here OC, I believe you.  But for myself, its very difficult to trust intuition.  Maybe I just have not been able to prove its reliability with myself thus far.  Nonetheless, intuition is not a tool upon which I can rely.  Therefore, the pre-emptive strike will be more prevalent in my response.  Though, having said that, how do I know when its time to get pre-emptive?  Maybe that is intuition talking to me?  Clearly I need to think about this some more....



How do you know?? Well, I guess it depends on the individual person, but for me, I would think that it'd be once the guy started to move closer, try to get in your face, etc.  Having your hands up in a defensive posture is a plus.  At least you have something between him and you besides your face!  

Mike


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## Flatlander (Jun 1, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> At least you have something between him and you besides your face!
> 
> Mike


Very true.  Quite agreed.


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 1, 2004)

Granted, MA are for self defense only. However, once you invade my personal space or that of someone with me, you have effectively attacked me, especially if I have nowhere to go. if you corner an animal, it will not wait for you to touch it. Trust me, our cats have proven this.
If my personal space is invaded by someone with obviously unfriendly intentions, I may have no choice but to attack first before I find myself in a situation where effective defense is impossible. Especially if more than one aggressor is involved.


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## OC Kid (Jun 1, 2004)

I dunno about how to explain about intuition. Other than its the way I have been taught/ trained and train. 
 When we practice our self defense techniques its based upon one step sparring. At white/ Orange (begininng level) The instructor would tell the attacker when to attack and what to use. A person would step in say with a right over hand punch then we would defends against it. After the instructor showed us what a basic defensive technique would be. 

   As we go up in rank the techniques become more difficult and reactionary. Reactionary meaning we may not know when and what theyre gonna attack us with but we react off it.

  Either way as long as a person is prepared (awareness) they will be able to defend themselves.
 As far a preemptive yea Ive had guys in my face and for some reason after I tried I knew they wouldnt give me a way out. So I beat them to the punch.


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## lonecoyote (Jun 2, 2004)

I'm for the preemptive strike but one thing about some of the tactics here bothers me... the I dont want any trouble attitude, palms forward etc. You may be guaranteeing yourself a fight. Thugs want victims, not fights and who do you think they pick to sucker punch? The guy who retreats, saying I'm sorry... I didn't mean... I don't want any trouble. While you're preparing your preemptive strike he may throw a  sucker punch. You've been out suckered. I give warning, usually just one, and then go if that doesn't work, but anyone on me knows its going to be a fight. It happened to me at a car wash not long ago, a guy walks up, really strung out on something making him act really strange, and tries to get really close, makes a motion like he wants to shake hands, but aggressively. I got the feeling that if I had done the I don't want any trouble thing I would have gotten attacked, so I told him to get the f--- away from me or I'll hurt you. He backed away but he was about a half second from a blitz. My warning saved me I think.


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## MJS (Jun 2, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I'm for the preemptive strike but one thing about some of the tactics here bothers me... the I dont want any trouble attitude, palms forward etc. You may be guaranteeing yourself a fight. Thugs want victims, not fights and who do you think they pick to sucker punch? The guy who retreats, saying I'm sorry... I didn't mean... I don't want any trouble. While you're preparing your preemptive strike he may throw a  sucker punch. You've been out suckered. I give warning, usually just one, and then go if that doesn't work, but anyone on me knows its going to be a fight. It happened to me at a car wash not long ago, a guy walks up, really strung out on something making him act really strange, and tries to get really close, makes a motion like he wants to shake hands, but aggressively. I got the feeling that if I had done the I don't want any trouble thing I would have gotten attacked, so I told him to get the f--- away from me or I'll hurt you. He backed away but he was about a half second from a blitz. My warning saved me I think.



Like its been said before, especially in the eyes of the LEO and the courts, doing everything you can to avoid the situation before fighting is most likely your best defense.  Now, I'm not saying to be a victim, but keep in mind that we live in a very sue happy world where even the bad guy may turn around and sue YOU for assault!  Having your hands up is not a bad thing.  You dont have to have them palms out, but even if you had them chest level, together is better than nothing.  You hands are already half way up....alot closer to being able to defend your face, than if they were at your sides.

Now, in your example at the wash....granted you said that the guy seemed to be on something, but if he wasnt, saying that, could egg him on even more.

As for that sucker punch....why take your eyes off of him???  By turning your back to the person, THAT is whats opening yourself to the punch.  Get a good amount of distance between you and the attacker, and you have greatly cut down on the risk of 'getting suckered'

Again, every situation is gonna be different so the defender has to use his/her best judgement.

Mike


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## lonecoyote (Jun 2, 2004)

I absolutely agree with you MJS, that it is best to have your hands up in some way, as well as to not take your eyes off the potential source of trouble. And those are certainly good points about our lawsuit obsessed society (everyone wants to hit the jackpot) but what I was getting at was more about attitude. Being too defensive, too apologetic, to a lot of street thugs will set you up as a victim, and to do these things in preparation for your preemptive strike, well you just might get beat to the punch, even if you do see it coming, maybe the guy is that fast, and him punching before you do might be a direct result of your defensive not offensive attitude. As far as egging the guy on, I was fully prepared to put a hurtin on him. I'm going home to my family and if that means you don't get to that is your fault.


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## MJS (Jun 2, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree with you MJS, that it is best to have your hands up in some way, as well as to not take your eyes off the potential source of trouble. And those are certainly good points about our lawsuit obsessed society (everyone wants to hit the jackpot) but what I was getting at was more about attitude. Being too defensive, too apologetic, to a lot of street thugs will set you up as a victim, and to do these things in preparation for your preemptive strike, well you just might get beat to the punch, even if you do see it coming, maybe the guy is that fast, and him punching before you do might be a direct result of your defensive not offensive attitude.



Thanks for the clarification.  True, and I agree with you also.  Sounding too much like a wimp could very well be a mistake on the defenders part.



> As far as egging the guy on, I was fully prepared to put a hurtin on him. I'm going home to my family and if that means you don't get to that is your fault.



My thoughts exactly!!  I look at it like this.  I didnt tell anyone to attack me.  I didnt tel anyone to break into my house and rob me.  So, in that case, I agree...you get what you deserve! 

Mike


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## lonecoyote (Jun 2, 2004)

bunch of great posts on a really tricky subject. MJS, I probably don't know as much about the law as I could, and it is important, as you related in your other posts. What does the law say, for the most part, about the preemptive strike? What if someone invades say, not my house, but stuck their head in the window of my truck? In other situations, does a warning make a difference? Okay, not my obscene warning from earlier, but "leave me alone', or "get away from me" anyway, thanks for the interesting and thought provoking ideas.


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## MJS (Jun 2, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> bunch of great posts on a really tricky subject. MJS, I probably don't know as much about the law as I could, and it is important, as you related in your other posts. What does the law say, for the most part, about the preemptive strike? What if someone invades say, not my house, but stuck their head in the window of my truck? In other situations, does a warning make a difference? Okay, not my obscene warning from earlier, but "leave me alone', or "get away from me"



Well, I'm not a lawyer, so as for my knowledge....its probably not as up to speed as someone elses may be.  I would think though, that you do need to be justified as to what you do.  Keep in mind that if there are other people around, they will witness this, and they will all form their own opinion of what they saw.  There was an interesting thread about that on here.  C2Kenpo posted some pics. and we all formed our opinion of what was happening.  It was pretty cool and just went to prove that you will get many versions.



> anyway, thanks for the interesting and thought provoking ideas.



You're welcome!  I thought that is was a pretty good topic too!!!

Mike


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## OC Kid (Jun 2, 2004)

As far as street thugs go. I have read some articles that street thugs will pick their victem. It isnt a random you stepped on my foot or checked out my GF tushy thingy.
 I do and teach my kids never turn your back on your enemy always be aware.

I teach them to stand with their feet shoulder width feet at 45 degrees and have one hand up around their head maybe scratching their nose or playing with the top button on their shirt and the other hand down protecting their privates. 

I also relate stories to them like one kick boxing match I saw. A guy touched gloves (at the begining of the round) then immediately threw a spinning back kick taking his opponent out, most fighters touch gloves at the begining of the round as a sign of respect or sportsmanship, he did it to get his distance.

  Cheap shot ? yes, legal? yes,  sportsman like?  well not in my opinion which is why the fighter  should of been ready...

When in doubt at least here in SoCal.. the old addage it it better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6 definately plays out.


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## Gary Crawford (Jun 2, 2004)

Years ago,I ran a Liquor store for my Dad in a black neightborhood in a town in Arkansas.Being a "white boy",the customers were always testing me in one way or another.I discovered that no matter what they said or did,I could not show fear,that was what they were looking for.I know that if I showed fear,sooner or later someone would try to rob me.I kept up a good act.They all thought I was crazy and looking for an excuse to kill one of them,so I was never robbed.I earned that reputation from two altercations,both started verbal,but ended when they entered my personal space.Both types of stratigies are good ones.Using the palms up(I don't want any trouble)tactic is usually best when confronted by a stranger,but at the same time don't take any crap either,you can try to difuse the situation without showing fear.What ever stratgy is used,always maintain a safe distance,when the attacker crosses that line,it's time to fight.The june issue of Black Belt has an excellent article on the subject(page 74)


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## Cthulhu (Jun 3, 2004)

Another reason why getting into a fight is just a bad idea...

If you can 'read' the attack and strike preemptively, any witnesses who don't happen to be within earshot of any previous verbal altercation will just see you lighting the other guy up for no apparent reason.

However, if you wait for the guy to make the first aggressive movement, it may be too late.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The only thing I can say is do whatever feels best to you at the time keeping in mind the potential consequences.

Cthulhu


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## MJS (Dec 24, 2005)

Reviving this thread to get input from our newer members as well as our older ones.

So, any other thoughts on the pre-emptive strike?  IMHO, I feel that if the other guy is getting ready to attack, why wait until the punch is already half way to your head?  While it may give the impression to the bystanders that * we * are being the aggressor, I feel that by doing what we can prior to it escalating to a physical confrontation, ie: "Hey man, I don't want to fight you!!" we can take away any doubt as to who the aggressor really is.

Mike


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## Southwell (Dec 24, 2005)

Good point Mike, it would really have to do with the situation. Example a argument with someone over a parking space or loud mouth drunk at a hockey game[happens alot here in Canada LOL] I think I would be more able to handle the situation calmly. But if there was more than one attacker or my family was with me or you felt the odds were against you[ feeling sick,nursing a injury or you just have a really bad feeling] then I would strike first and fast to multiple targets in the true Kenpo way, LOL


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm not sure what I would do in this situation. Since I am a relative beginner, if I felt threatened, I don't know if I would have the forethought to consider legalities. I would hope that bystanders could clearly identify I was not the aggressor in the situation. I would probably strike first before risking getting attacked. I think our intuition and picking up telegraphs, would be hightened in a real-life situation.

I was posting at the same time Mike was posting this:


> While it may give the impression to the bystanders that  we  are being the aggressor, I feel that by doing what we can prior to it escalating to a physical confrontation, ie: "Hey man, I don't want to fight you!!" we can take away any doubt as to who the aggressor really is.



I agree. I think who the true aggressor is could be cleared up.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 24, 2005)

I'll strike first whenever the other guy shows his willingness, through word or action, to harm me and THEN places himself in a position to do so.  In other words, if a loud mouth drunk tells me he's going to kick my butt, then begins closing in to a distance that he could do it, i'm going to hit him as soon as he is in range, regardless of whether or not he has done any other action to show me that he is going to assault me.

More to the point, if i'm occupying a space, and a belligerant person comes to ME, then i'll strike them first.  I don't consider it wrong unless I have to go to them to do the assaulting.  A person can SAY anything they want from a distance.  I don't care what comes out of their mouth.  If they are approaching me, it's only so they can either do me bodily harm or attempt to impose their will physically, I don't really care which.


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## MJS (Dec 26, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I'll strike first whenever the other guy shows his willingness, through word or action, to harm me and THEN places himself in a position to do so. In other words, if a loud mouth drunk tells me he's going to kick my butt, then begins closing in to a distance that he could do it, i'm going to hit him as soon as he is in range, regardless of whether or not he has done any other action to show me that he is going to assault me.
> 
> More to the point, if i'm occupying a space, and a belligerant person comes to ME, then i'll strike them first. I don't consider it wrong unless I have to go to them to do the assaulting. A person can SAY anything they want from a distance. I don't care what comes out of their mouth. If they are approaching me, it's only so they can either do me bodily harm or attempt to impose their will physically, I don't really care which.


 
Good points on the personal space aspect.  This is why, IMO, being aware of your surroundings is so important.  Not much they can do from across the room, but once they start to invade that 'comfort zone' your defense should begin, ie: putting your hands up, not necessarily in a threatening manner, changing the way you're standing, etc.

Mike


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## Nanalo74 (Dec 26, 2005)

Last Memorial Day I was working a huge party at the nightclub. We had a lot of singers performing that night. 80's acts like The Cover Girls, TKA, Shannon, etc. for those of you into Freestyle club music.

Anyway, I was posted by the stairway leading down to the dressing rooms which was roped off. There was a guy standing near the stairs kind of blocking te way. The party promoter had asked the guy to step aside so the artists who were getting off the stage could go down. The guy starts yelling and cursing at the promoter, so I intervened. I asked the guy to step aside and he turns his ire on me. 

Mind you, the guy was about 6'3", 280 lbs. I'm not small myself, but definitely no where near that big. The guy is yelling and cursing, but not moving. Now I have one singer with her entourage behind me, another singer and his entourage coming up the stairs and this guy blocking both groups from getting anywhere. At this point I got angry and said in a very firm tone, "My man, you got to move!" He responded by squaring off and throwing up his fists. I didn't even hesitate. WHAM! I caught him with a right to the jaw that knocked him out cold. This is where it gets scary.

The guys eyes roll up into his head and he goes right down the stairs. My first thought was that I'd killed him. This guy was gonna break his neck and I was going away for a looooong time. Luckily, the people making their way up the stairs tried to catch him and break his fall.

Now my logic was that I wasn't gonna let a guy that size get a shot off on me. Skill or no skill I didn't want to take that chance. However, due to my surroundings I may have wanted to think twice about my reaction. I could have killed him, one of those people coming up the stairs could've been injured as a result of my actions. 

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## SAVAGE (Dec 26, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Ok, I know I probably shouldnt start this thread, but I'll do it anyway!!  Hopefully, it wont cause too much trouble. Considering we've had people post threads with pictures, people asking about Honor or Freedom, etc. I thought I'd start something along the same lines.
> 
> Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and *after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away, etc* if you honestly felt that this guy was going to take a swing at you, which of the following would you do.
> 
> ...


 
Well A...that is what we are taught..and we are trained killers!

B.....ohhhhhh....under some circumstances...like being confronted by two people etc!


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## jdinca (Dec 26, 2005)

Great thread! I agree with the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" point of view. If you've got the training that tells you, yeah, this is gonna happen, why give him a free shot? The caveat being, you better BE damned sure it's going to happen. Verbal harrassment isn't enough. Aggressive posture, taking a stance in addition, etc., yeah, that's enough. I like the nonverbal palms out idea. It conveys a message to those watching that you don't want to fight, even if they can't hear you and it allows you to properly position yourself.


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## MJS (Dec 28, 2005)

We have some great discussion going here! Thanks to everyone that has contributed!  Thought I'd change the direction a little.  We have discussed the pros/cons of the Pre emptive strike.  Now, I'd like to hear thoughts on what you think are some of the best strikes to use.

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Dec 28, 2005)

I figured I would throw something in here for some thought...

Why not create the opportunity they want? This way you are setting the stage and they are reacting to that primal urge and all the bystanders see is this person took a swing at you and you were doing nothing. 

Just a thought.


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## MJS (Dec 28, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I figured I would throw something in here for some thought...
> 
> Why not create the opportunity they want? This way you are setting the stage and they are reacting to that primal urge and all the bystanders see is this person took a swing at you and you were doing nothing.
> 
> Just a thought.


 
Good point Dave.  If I'm reading this correctly, this would fall into the category of taking a non-aggressive posture, hands up, saying that you don't want to fight, etc.?

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Dec 28, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Good point Dave. If I'm reading this correctly, this would fall into the category of taking a non-aggressive posture, hands up, saying that you don't want to fight, etc.?
> 
> Mike


Yes, something like that. The last thing you want, is to let them (attacker(s) and bystanders) know you know something. This is critical when it comes to the law and a court room. Even if you had every right to defend yourself, as a martial artist, the court will certainly hold you to a higher standard than the average person with regards to self defense. Also what the bystanders see will greatly influence the outcome of the situation from a legal stand point. Plus, never display your weapons. IMHO


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## jdinca (Dec 28, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> We have some great discussion going here! Thanks to everyone that has contributed! Thought I'd change the direction a little. We have discussed the pros/cons of the Pre emptive strike. Now, I'd like to hear thoughts on what you think are some of the best strikes to use.
> 
> Mike


 
Depends on what targets present themselves. A nice kick to the knee would work well, as would the groin. Heel hand or punch to the chin followed by a knee to the groin. Half fist to the throat or rigid claw to the eyes if it was a life or death situation. A good quality ear slap should do the trick followed by a knee into the face as he bends over holding his head.

If an arm is presenting forward, a good chin na move into a lock might prevent a much more violent confrontation, especially if it involves some pain on his part, such as face to ground, with arm torqued in an unnatural position etc...

The choices are endless.


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## Cyber Ninja (Dec 28, 2005)

A good pre-emptive strike, if properly launched, ends most confrontations. One of my favorites.


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 28, 2005)

I try to keep in mind that there are potentially three (sets of) witnesses.  "you're friends", who wll stick up for you to the law, "his/her friends" who will try to make you look bad to the law, and"nobodies friends", who just happen to be there.  The first group is probably going to be treated skeptically (and they should be) because the second group could lie or embellish or whatever and in the eyes of the law both groups are probably the same (so you want the law to be skeptical).  If the third group that you want as your witnesses.   The ones who did not see you act aggressiveand who did not see you strike first.  Part of situational awareness is to know who's around.  If it's all his friends, then you are probably screwed anyway so have at it (being you are alone and outnumbered that if you can't talk/run your way out then witnesses don't matter).  If it's all your friends than you *really* don't want to start something and be accused of ganing up.  But if there are third party observers, make sure they will be on your side by what they see you do, and not do


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## swiftpete (Dec 28, 2005)

Nanalo74 said:
			
		

> Last Memorial Day I was working a huge party at the nightclub. We had a lot of singers performing that night. 80's acts like The Cover Girls, TKA, Shannon, etc. for those of you into Freestyle club music.
> 
> Anyway, I was posted by the stairway leading down to the dressing rooms which was roped off. There was a guy standing near the stairs kind of blocking te way. The party promoter had asked the guy to step aside so the artists who were getting off the stage could go down. The guy starts yelling and cursing at the promoter, so I intervened. I asked the guy to step aside and he turns his ire on me.
> 
> ...


 
Even still, I bet you were pleased you KO'd him. If you'd hit him with your best shot and he'd just stood there then that would've been worse! How hard did you have to hit him to knock him out then? He sounds like a big bloke, not the sort that i would've thought would've gone down easy. 20 stone bloke raging in your face..yeah i think that'd be something that'd get your heart pumping a bit..


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## Nanalo74 (Dec 28, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> Even still, I bet you were pleased you KO'd him. If you'd hit him with your best shot and he'd just stood there then that would've been worse! How hard did you have to hit him to knock him out then? He sounds like a big bloke, not the sort that i would've thought would've gone down easy. 20 stone bloke raging in your face..yeah i think that'd be something that'd get your heart pumping a bit..


 
LOL! Yeah, I must admit the highlight of the story is that he went down with one shot. He was pretty drunk so I can't give myself too much credit. But you're right, a character that size definitely made me move differently than I would have if he were "human size".

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## Cujo (Dec 29, 2005)

As a cop myself, I'll just say this. You know all those people standing around watching? We call them witnesses. Be verbal, be very verbal! I love it when I respond to a fight call and people come up and say "He kept telling the guy that he didn't want any trouble," ect. I also recommend getting into what we call the "interview" position. This is basically a relaxed fighting stance. If you watch an experianced officer speaking to someone you will notice that he is standing weapon side, (strong side), back and hands up in front of him as if he was talking with his hands. This is of course a stance that allows him to react immediately to a threat. If you must strike, strike hard. I like to use a brachial stun if possible, it will end the situation fast and the bad guy looks like a mope flopping around on the floor, plus no permanent damage.

Pax
Cujo


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## Nanalo74 (Dec 29, 2005)

Cujo said:
			
		

> As a cop myself, I'll just say this. You know all those people standing around watching? We call them witnesses. Be verbal, be very verbal! I love it when I respond to a fight call and people come up and say "He kept telling the guy that he didn't want any trouble," ect. I also recommend getting into what we call the "interview" position. This is basically a relaxed fighting stance. If you watch an experianced officer speaking to someone you will notice that he is standing weapon side, (strong side), back and hands up in front of him as if he was talking with his hands. This is of course a stance that allows him to react immediately to a threat. If you must strike, strike hard. I like to use a brachial stun if possible, it will end the situation fast and the bad guy looks like a mope flopping around on the floor, plus no permanent damage.
> 
> Pax
> Cujo


 
I've used this tactic many times (the interview stance) and it works very well. You can react very quickly and people watching see it as a non-aggressive posture. I had another incident where a guy was being verbally aggressive, threatening, etc. I kept saying "Sir, just stay where you are. Sir, I don't want any problems.", etc. His friends got him out of the club before he got near me and when the managers came over to find out what happened (this was a corporate event where roughing up the customers is NOT an option), I didn't have to open my mouth. Those who were in the vicinity told them what happened and how I practically begged the guy to walk away. It works.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 29, 2005)

Cujo said:
			
		

> As a cop myself, I'll just say this. You know all those people standing around watching? We call them witnesses. Be verbal, be very verbal! I love it when I respond to a fight call and people come up and say "He kept telling the guy that he didn't want any trouble," ect. I also recommend getting into what we call the "interview" position. This is basically a relaxed fighting stance. If you watch an experianced officer speaking to someone you will notice that he is standing weapon side, (strong side), back and hands up in front of him as if he was talking with his hands. This is of course a stance that allows him to react immediately to a threat. If you must strike, strike hard. I like to use a brachial stun if possible, it will end the situation fast and the bad guy looks like a mope flopping around on the floor, plus no permanent damage.
> 
> Pax
> Cujo


Cops know how to use force with witnesses standing around.

'Sir, quit resisting..please sir, quit resisting....this isn't necessary sir, i'm just trying to handcuff you, there's no need for this, sir.'  

Talk nice, think mean.


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## Cujo (Dec 29, 2005)

Amen Sarge!

Pax
Cujo


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## Bigshadow (Dec 30, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Cops know how to use force with witnesses standing around.
> 
> 'Sir, quit resisting..please sir, quit resisting....this isn't necessary sir, i'm just trying to handcuff you, there's no need for this, sir.'
> 
> Talk nice, think mean.


However, I don't think I can say that.  I might would even break a law or two trying that line.


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## jdinca (Dec 30, 2005)

Cujo said:
			
		

> As a cop myself, I'll just say this. You know all those people standing around watching? We call them witnesses. Be verbal, be very verbal! I love it when I respond to a fight call and people come up and say "He kept telling the guy that he didn't want any trouble," ect. I also recommend getting into what we call the "interview" position. This is basically a relaxed fighting stance. If you watch an experianced officer speaking to someone you will notice that he is standing weapon side, (strong side), back and hands up in front of him as if he was talking with his hands. This is of course a stance that allows him to react immediately to a threat. If you must strike, strike hard. I like to use a brachial stun if possible, it will end the situation fast and the bad guy looks like a mope flopping around on the floor, plus no permanent damage.
> 
> Pax
> Cujo



It's interesting how this stance can become mind, no mind, isn't it? Most of my job involves dealing with people in stressful situations and I'm not armed (except for these lethal hands, whaaahhhhh!!!:lol. Fortunately, I'm usually considered the "good guy".  Even though, people react to stress in weird ways sometimes. The few times I've had someone come at me, it was usually because I wasn't paying attention and didn't get a chance to defuse it before it escalated. Fortunately, that hasn't happened in quite a few years. To me, the best pre-emptive strike is verbal judo while being prepared in case it doesn't work.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 31, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> However, I don't think I can say that. I might would even break a law or two trying that line.


 I'm sorry, let me translate that in to civilian.

'Help, HELP, leave me alone, sir, I have no desire to fight with you...Somebody help me...Sir, I don't want to fight you, sir, please just leave me alone'.  

Better?  Talk nice, think mean. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Just think of what the jury would think if the witnesses told of you BEGGING the 'vicious man' to leave you alone, pleading with him to stop his attack, and only, when he further persisted, had to resort to violence as a last, reluctant resort.  You, sir, are the real victim of this event.  The defense rests.


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## MJS (Dec 31, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, let me translate that in to civilian.
> 
> 'Help, HELP, leave me alone, sir, I have no desire to fight with you...Somebody help me...Sir, I don't want to fight you, sir, please just leave me alone'.
> 
> ...


 
Great points!  Some may look at that and think that you're backing down, giving the aggressor the ok to keep verbally belittling you, etc.  IMHO, this is the impression that you want to give, especially, as its been said, if there are bystanders.  Talk is cheap.  If I isolated myself into a corner everytime someone called me a name, I'd never leave my house.  Does it anger you and make you want to just lay the guy out?  Sure, but in the long run, the headaches will be alot less by walking away.

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Dec 31, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, let me translate that in to civilian.
> 
> 'Help, HELP, leave me alone, sir, I have no desire to fight with you...Somebody help me...Sir, I don't want to fight you, sir, please just leave me alone'.
> 
> ...


Yes, I understand.  We are taught like that!  I knew what you meant. Yes, as you "stumble" onto your attacker, you are trying to get up off of them but somehow you elbows, knees, and feet seem to crush the attacker over and over while you "attempt" to get up and out of their vicious grip! All the while saying what you pointed out!


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## MJS (Jan 2, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Depends on what targets present themselves. A nice kick to the knee would work well, as would the groin. Heel hand or punch to the chin followed by a knee to the groin. Half fist to the throat or rigid claw to the eyes if it was a life or death situation. A good quality ear slap should do the trick followed by a knee into the face as he bends over holding his head.
> 
> If an arm is presenting forward, a good chin na move into a lock might prevent a much more violent confrontation, especially if it involves some pain on his part, such as face to ground, with arm torqued in an unnatural position etc...
> 
> The choices are endless.


 
Great post!  I agree, the choices are endless.  I personally like the concept to Tony Blauers Spear.  Slamming into the opponent when they begin to move can give you some great follow-ups with both knees and elbows.

Mike


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