# Terminology in your training?



## Shinzu (May 29, 2004)

how many of you use and train with korean terminology?  what do you think of it?  

pros and cons.....

i for one like to train with it and test my students.  i find that the use of english during class lessens the "traditionalism" some.

it also makes the students think and respond quickly.  i feel it makes the class more intersting also.  

the problem i face is that the other teachers use english more and students are less eager to study the korean language for training.


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## ShaolinWolf (May 29, 2004)

Yeah, I think it's great to learn the language of your art. The only problem is that many people who are in a foreign art don't have time to memorize the language or terms. they are either in the process of learning another language(french, german, spainsh,etc.) and don't have time. Maybe in College or just work all the time. Also, many people don't have the respect to want to learn the language, they just want the skills so they can go around with their black belt. They even want to become an instructor, but they don't want to use their smarts or even further their knowledge. 

We use a little korean in class, but no counting. I had to learn to count on my own. Same with techniques, though sometimes we are told what the technique is called in Black belt or Master Class. 

I want to learn as much of the language as I can. I enjoy learning and never want to stop. 

I think its great when other schools want to teach with the art's language, but they need to be prepared for the students who are not readilly able to accept wanting to learn another language. And your right, most schools in the US do teach in English. So, it's kind of hard when the most commonly used languages in the US are English and Spanish. And considering there are alot of people in the process of learning one or the other, many people are not willing to learn a third language or even the terms on top of that. 

Also, there are plenty of older people who just can't remember the terms. And parents sometimes have a harder time remembering the terms because they have so much else they are busy with. 

I think its both interesting and fun to learn with korean terminology. But yes, the downside is more students are not willing to use a language they think they won't be needing in life. Possibly won't, but they don't want to make the extra effort. I try to memorize as much as possible and as often as I can. I know some japanese, counting, phrases, etc., but I'm a bit less learned in Korean.

:asian:


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## Shinzu (May 29, 2004)

you make some very valid points SW.  i agree that it is important and you have the right attitude tword learning it.  another issue is the proper pronunciation.  different schools say things differently, which makes you wonder who is saying it correctly.


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## kwanjang (May 30, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> I think its great when other schools want to teach with the art's language, but they need to be prepared for the students who are not readilly able to accept wanting to learn another language. And your right, most schools in the US do teach in English.



SW.  I have found it easy to have my students learn the language as we go.  Beginning at white belt, they are gradually introduced to it, and I EXPECT them to learn it as I expect them to learn etiquette and all other things in MA.  By expecting these things as the norm, I never have anyone question the practice.

BTW, what really gets me is when "traditional" Korean martial arts schools use Japanese terminology for the basic things such as teacher, uniform, or training place beside the usual English they use for other things (because they probably did not bother to learn more of either language.


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## ShaolinWolf (May 30, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> SW. I have found it easy to have my students learn the language as we go. Beginning at white belt, they are gradually introduced to it, and I EXPECT them to learn it as I expect them to learn etiquette and all other things in MA. By expecting these things as the norm, I never have anyone question the practice.
> 
> BTW, what really gets me is when "traditional" Korean martial arts schools use Japanese terminology for the basic things such as teacher, uniform, or training place beside the usual English they use for other things (because they probably did not bother to learn more of either language.


Oh, I think that's great, KJ. I was just saying not everyone is as prone to wanting to learn it all. I mean, if that's your school's choice, then that's fine. I'm just saying it's just that alot of student laugh at schools that use korean terms and that they have to learn it and can't just learn how to fight. I guess that goes along with students who want to learn the techniques and how to fight, but are unwilling to practice their forms... 

I myself, as stated above, think it is great to learn the martial art's motherland language. I'd like to someday be able to converse in Korean, rather than just know phrases and terms. 


:asian:


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## kwanjang (May 30, 2004)

SW.  I hear you.  As you say, some folks join to learn fighting and nothing more, others come for the whole thing.  To each his own, and nothing wrong with that.  Teachers are the same.  I would get too bored doing nothing but fighting.  Indeed, now that I am getting old, I would have little left to do at all.


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## ShaolinWolf (May 30, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> SW. I hear you. As you say, some folks join to learn fighting and nothing more, others come for the whole thing. To each his own, and nothing wrong with that. Teachers are the same. I would get too bored doing nothing but fighting. Indeed, now that I am getting old, I would have little left to do at all.


Indeed. Forms make you more focused, and learning a language adds to it. People think Martial arts are just for buffing up, being a Van Damme or Bruce Lee, Kicking butt, and getting your black belt. Wrong. In some senses it is that, but that is the least of it. Learning forcus, learning knowledge, stuff that can deepen your memory on a day-to-day basis, respect/discipline/manners/etc., and all are another bigger part. I think one of the best things you can do if you truly want to get into your art is to learn the language, or at least learn the names of everything that is in your art in the art's tongue.

:asian:


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## shesulsa (May 31, 2004)

We use some Korean terminology, but don't learn fluent Korean unless under our own volition.  In fact, I've run into a problem (for me) that the same terms were spelled differently, sometimes EXTREMELY differently and I don't know which one is right.  For example, the command to bow...I have seen it spelled Kyun yae, Kung rae, Kunrea, etcetera.  Is this different dialects at work here?  My local college does not teach Korean, unfortunately, and all the tapes and CDs I find lean toward travel fluency rather than conversational fluency.

It also seems that some of the pronunciation is difficult for western tongues to form.  I was fortunate to have a South Korea native try to teach me how to correctly pronounce the last name of a local martial arts supply store owner.  He described how to hold my tongue and mouth and lips and what sound to make and after a few minutes I thought I sounded just like him, but then he shook his head and said Westerners just can't make the same sound.

<sigh>  Any suggestions out there?


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## glad2bhere (May 31, 2004)

I may be in a weird minority here but will share this for what it is worth. 

In my college classes I use as LITTLE Korean terminology as I can. I don't find that it improves the students understanding or practice and it sometimes actually daunts the student by adding one more level of intellectual material they would need to succeed with. 

On the other hand, with my CLUB students and with my PRIVATE students I expect them to pick-up the terms both as a way of recognizing the Korean heritage AND as a way of introducing them to Korean culture (language and ideas) beyond just the practice of martial art. 

I do have one criticism of using Korean language though and this creates problems even with my advanced students. It is very difficult to find uniformity in terminolgy (especially in weapons work) and even where there are uniform terms the spelling and pronunciation are not always uniform. Even in the same art, terms can change both in spelling and usage between organizations. Ad to this mis-interpretations and faulty transliterations into English and the matters just get worse. Wish there might be something to address this. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (May 31, 2004)

Seems like the various groups use the particular Korean dialect that was used by their original Korean teachers.  We added to this by translating these words using our OWN dialects because there was no way to literally translate a Korean symbol for sound (that might change withing a sentence) into a recognizable alphabet letter we are used to.  People from the South use different sounds to translate the words they hear than do people form the North and/or other places where dialects change the sound of the words we hear.  Hence we get different spelling.

Look at the Suh brothers last name.  One is spelled SUH (or SU), while the other (who has the same name) is spelled SEO.  When you hear the Korean people "sound" these names out, they are the same.  However, they are spelled different HERE, because two different people (hearing different sounds) translated them into English on their official papers.  Now they are forever spelled different unless they want to spend time and money to make that change.

Add to this the fact that some use the word "horse stance" and other use the word "sitting stance", we get even more differences in describing the same thing.  For this reason, I believe it will be impossible to get it so we all have it the same way.  Eh, dialects will allways be with us YouALL.


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## Makalakumu (May 31, 2004)

I took a Korean martial arts group (from Korea) into Boundary Waters Canoe Area up in MN on a wilderness canoe trip and they were astounded at how badly mispronounced by Korean was.  I remember making a huge effort to learn all of the terms and I really felt proud when I could send out both languages...yet, if its so badly done that its nearly unintelligable to a Korean National...How much is it worth?

upnorthkyosa

PS - I use Korean terminology in my dojang exclusively.  Even with the children.


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## kwanjang (May 31, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I took a Korean martial arts group (from Korea) into Boundary Waters Canoe Area up in MN on a wilderness canoe trip



Wow, what a great trip.  I love that area.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 1, 2004)

It certainly was a great experience.  Their adult leader was the only one who spoke Korean and I was chosen as their guide because of my experience with Korean Martial Arts.  I knew the basic words.  Stop, go, hello, ect...things that we use in class, yet, the first day in the canoes showed me that I mispronounced them so badly that they didn't understand.  So around the campfire everynight, we worked on my Korean and they worked on their English.  It was very fun trying to pantomime everything we couldn't communicate.  I wish we could have communicated better.  Some of the Koreans were third and forth dan in TKD and would have been valuable resources for questions.  A whole new perspective.  We did get to spar, when we got back to civilization, I don't mess around in the wilderness, and they were very good.  I still use some of the combinations that they taught me.  The best part of that trip was the food.  They brought kimchi along with them along with rice noodles and other dried Korean food.  We mixed it all together and chowed down until my mouth burned.  They laughed at me when I couldn't stop my eyes from watering.  I laughed too, I like hot food, but they eat that stuff all of the time.  Ketchup to them is ground chilis...

This experience begs the question, if our pronounciation of the language is so bad that we can't understand what other people in our federation are saying when we get together across great distances, how can we continue to give the terminology credence?  If someone from Korea cannot understand what you are saying, is the practice worth it?

With all due respect...

upnorthkyosa


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## shesulsa (Jun 1, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This experience begs the question, if our pronounciation of the language is so bad that we can't understand what other people in our federation are saying when we get together across great distances, how can we continue to give the terminology credence? If someone from Korea cannot understand what you are saying, is the practice worth it?
> 
> With all due respect...
> 
> upnorthkyosa


Yes, sir!  And, with all due respect, as much as I would like to learn the language associated with my main art...I agree!

It is very frustrating to me because I so want to learn Korean, but no resources in my area provide instruction in conversational Korean...AND...I know that after I test for black (assuming I pass), I will receive my requirements for 2nd dan in Korean.  Of course, I'm sure I could pay a translator to do the job for me, but doesn't that make the whole point moot (as you say)???


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## mtabone (Jun 1, 2004)

I remember as I was coming up in the ranks of the Moo Duk Kwan, they had a Korean Terminology tape. It was spoken in english first, then Korean 3 times, twice slow, and once fast. It was a great training tool. Not only did I learn the Korean associatied with the movements and meanings, I also learned the correct pernounciation, ect...

I am looking around my house for it now, as I have misplaced it over the years.....


TANG SOO!!!
M. Tabone


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## kwanjang (Jun 1, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This experience begs the question, if our pronounciation of the language is so bad that we can't understand what other people in our federation are saying when we get together across great distances, how can we continue to give the terminology credence?  If someone from Korea cannot understand what you are saying, is the practice worth it?
> 
> With all due respect...
> 
> upnorthkyosa



Sounds like you had even a better time than I had thought.  What a wonderful opportunity.

As far as the terminology is concerned.  I suspect that the dialects of the various groups have a lot to do with it.  I for one have an extremely hard time to understand some of the Southern folks when they call me.  Face to face seems better, but on the phone I am in bad shape.  Alas, all we can do is our best.


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## Shinzu (Jun 2, 2004)

a great source for proper terminology would be:

www.greatwarriorpak.com

my association is affiliated with him.  i know his pronunciations are correct.


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## The Sapphire Ping Dragon (Jun 7, 2004)

In both of the Tang Soo Do schools that I've trained in, we use Korean terminology and I really like that.  I like the tradition and I feel that it's good for instructors and masters to teach their students the Korean as well as the English.  However, between both schools, I've found that my new teachers pronounce the same words differently than it was pronounced by my old teacher and can be confusing. :idunno: 

Years ago, in belt tests, out of all the other kids, I was the fastest with responding to Korean commands.  All the other kids had to stop and think about what the word meant. 

Brittany  :asian:


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## progressivetactics (Jun 8, 2004)

I use the Korean terms i Know as often as i can in class and have been checked on them by different Korean parents in the parents area.
I have had a few different influences but my main one was Mr. Cadle who was from W. Virginia and even in Detroit, couldn't give up his Drawl..
My Hangul has a drawl

I have an audio tape of GM Drouillard saying the English words and Mrs Drouillard (native Korean and 5th dan TSD-Kang Uk Lee) saying the Korean.  i have noticed his pronunciation varies from hers on somethings.

I was told by one Korean mom that our 9 was way off. We used to say "ihop", and she said it needed to be "ahh uup"  sounding....We didn't want to say "ihop" to a korean...but she never told me exactly what it meant.
Oh well- Live and learn!  

bb


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## Shinzu (Jun 8, 2004)

i was corrected also by a native korean.  it is a learning experience when someone who actually speaks the language teaches you.

i'm always up for new things  :asian:


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## Llarion (Jun 18, 2004)

We count in Korean, though I'm certain I am saying every number horribly wrong. We call the forms by Korean name, and we call each technique by both English and Korean name. I've been searching for a concise Korean translation guide on the web for the terms and numbers so I can learn them properly, but have not had much success yet. I'll scope the link posted before me!!


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## progressivetactics (Jun 19, 2004)

if you have a written guide from your instructor- Say them the way they are written.  The Language is a sounded out the way it is written (if written in english). It is probably Very close.
If not, I invite you to our discussion forum at www.progressivetactics.com

a couple of the masters write/read and speak korean quite well.

bb


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## Llarion (Jul 10, 2004)

Thanks very much! I'll definitely stop by!! I actually got a Korean language learner CD, but haven't yet had time to sit down with it...


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## Pale Rider (Jul 31, 2004)

I agree that I beleive that the Korean Terminology should be stressed when teaching the Korean martial arts.  The only thing that I have problem with is that not only the English accents vary from State to State, but the pronounciation of the Korean terminology also varies. Therefore my best recommendation is that to understand the terminology both written and spoken, and listen to the different ways that people pronouce the words therefore no matter what you can converse with them. 

Also I find that it impresses the Koreans if you can converse with them in their own langauge as most countries believe that American is stereotyped in only speaking one language..

Again this is just my opinion.

(I have a terminology sheet that I am compiling for my students to first understand the Basic Commands and work up to being able to write Hangul... as my tests gets harder and with more Hangul on them.)


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## glad2bhere (Aug 1, 2004)

This may go against the prevailing opinions but I do NOT use Korean terminology or often work around the use of the terminology. I teach students whose language is English and who do not experience any special advantage in learning terms which are not wholly consistent across the KMA. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## DennisBreene (Jul 12, 2012)

To carry the discussion even further afield. I have been to several schools that use Korean terminology taught by Americans who themselves learned from Americans. Hence you end up with complete corruption of the pronunciation.  My Grand Master trained in multiple styles from Kempo to Korean and happened to be a native Hawiian. He often slipped between Korean, Japanese and the occasional Hawiian phrase while teaching.  There was a concerted effort to use proper Korean pronunciation for counting and basic stances, blocks, etc.  Japanese words like Gi and Kata were, I think so firmly entrenched in his own background that they slipped in unnoticed. To further add to the unique flavor of his demanding and excellent training, you soon learned that words like "pali" were Hawiian for hurry up. At about my brown belt period, my instructor decided to make a concerted effort to have us learn the Korean for all of the moves in the system.  As many of you are aware, the Korean description for something like a reverse outside block with knife hand in a back stance is every bit as complex in Korean as the English phrase I just wrote.  Even with written vocabulary and drillling, it was a very difficult transition and frequently when I am studying a new form, I find myself referring to the glossary to determine what the move is supposed to be because I am not that skilled at reading Korean words translated into Roman text. So, while the intention is noble, I believe we have to recognize that the language skills are often spotty and keep our primary focus on the quality of the techniques and the respect for the art as demonstrated in the class structure and behavior.
Dennis





shesulsa said:


> Yes, sir!  And, with all due respect, as much as I would like to learn the language associated with my main art...I agree!
> 
> It is very frustrating to me because I so want to learn Korean, but no resources in my area provide instruction in conversational Korean...AND...I know that after I test for black (assuming I pass), I will receive my requirements for 2nd dan in Korean.  Of course, I'm sure I could pay a translator to do the job for me, but doesn't that make the whole point moot (as you say)???





glad2bhere said:


> I may be in a weird minority here but will share this for what it is worth.
> 
> In my college classes I use as LITTLE Korean terminology as I can. I don't find that it improves the students understanding or practice and it sometimes actually daunts the student by adding one more level of intellectual material they would need to succeed with.
> 
> ...


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