# That made me feel better...



## charyuop (Oct 30, 2006)

One of the posture more difficult for me is, no doubts, "snake creeps down", in fact the way I do it makes me call it "snake craps down" because it really looks agly. I always thought that the reason was my belly which is let's say in a good shape hee hee.
I even found a picture online of Yang Chengfu doing the posture (he was not very thin, maybe a little bit more round than me, but not much) and even him to go low bent his back forward, but he was already in his old age...
www.chipellis.com/Pictures/comparitive-pics/YCFandDYJ/Slow Compare 3.htm
I don't even get close to go that low tho, when I try I simply lose my balance and end up with my butt on the ground.

So just decided to try and ask a coworker who is thin and in a very good shape to sit in the snake creeps posture and he went not as low as I go and when he forced it a bit more he ended up with the butt on the floor.
That really made me feel good about the fact that I can't go that low even tho my belly since a thin person has problems too


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2006)

Cool thats my teachers teacher Tung Ying Chieh. 

Dont let it get to you at the beginning, go as low as you can go comfortably while maintaining balance. Do not force it, if you do you will just pick up bad habits that you will have to unlearn later or hurt yourself trying and not be able to train at all.


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## charyuop (Oct 30, 2006)

I thought you would have loved those pictures ;P If you change the number in the URL you can see the pictures of the whole long form.

It won't be a problem keeping my pace. I have no intention to overdo and that's the first lesson my teacher gave me. He told me that when he started he tended to overdo and his form was awful because he had to work with sore knees, the master realized that immediately and had him slow down.
The book you suggested me from Dr. Yang is now part of my training. After the warm up I do the exercises for postures he suggests in the book and I try to keep them for at least one minute. I planned to increase the time weekly, even if just few seconds, and lower the stence when I feel I am fully relaxed with the previous level. I also use his qi gong exercises along with the ones from my teacher between the posture exercises and the form (let's say they give my muscle a bit of rest from the long staying still).


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2006)

charyuop said:


> After the warm up I do the exercises for postures he suggests in the book and I try to keep them for at least one minute. I planned to increase the time weekly, even if just few seconds, and lower the stence when I feel I am fully relaxed with the previous level. I also use his qi gong exercises along with the ones from my teacher between the posture exercises and the form (let's say they give my muscle a bit of rest from the long staying still).


 
VERY GOOD 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

Never ever push to far to fast with posture/stance training. It is a long process and increasing in small increments is the best way to go.


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## East Winds (Oct 30, 2006)

Chryuop,

My avatar is me doing Snake Creeps Down from the Traditional Yang Long Form. Not perfect by any means, but if an old guy like me can make a reasonable attempt, it should be a snip for a young guy like you:erg:

Just take it easy to begin with. Its easy to hear and feel a tendon go ping:shrug:

Very best wishes


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## charyuop (Oct 30, 2006)

Huhummm....East Winds I read in your profile you have been doing Tai Chi for 15 years...I have for a year (seriously with a teacher only 2 months).
Moreover your leg I am sure don't have to support while going down and then lift back up 240 pounds (ouch that hurts, need a diet LOL).

I do make attempts, everyday, and I have seen improvements since first I started. It is just that I thought (wow I am gonna use the word) a fat guy like me couldn't go much lower. Seeing a thin guy having more troubles than me, made me realize that it is not only a matter of fat, but training...and that I am not gonna give it up!


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2006)

charyuop said:


> Huhummm....East Winds I read in your profile you have been doing Tai Chi for 15 years...I have for a year (seriously with a teacher only 2 months).
> Moreover your leg I am sure don't have to support while going down and then lift back up 240 pounds (ouch that hurts, need a diet LOL).
> 
> I do make attempts, everyday, and I have seen improvements since first I started. It is just that I thought (wow I am gonna use the word) a fat guy like me couldn't go much lower. Seeing a thin guy having more troubles than me, made me realize that it is not only a matter of fat, but training...and that I am not gonna give it up!


 
After my first run in with a tree, a few years back, I have not been able to get much lower that East Winds myself; as a matter of fact I couldn't go that low after the tree incident.  But I am working my way back to where I use to go, and hopefully I will get there, but it takes time. 

But the depth of your Snakes Creeps down does not make or break you as a Tai Chi person, it is nice to know you can go low as the next guy, but it is 1 posture out of all. And what may be correct for you may not be correct for the other guy.  

And I have to second East Winds here "Its easy to hear and feel a tendon go ping". But I can tell you from experience it ain't fun.


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## zDom (Oct 30, 2006)

I wish there were someone around here to teach me a Tai Chi patten


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## pete (Oct 30, 2006)

its not about how low you can go, but how gracefully you can get back up! getting down requires flexibility and getting up requires strength, doing both in balance is tai chi... remember internal art, not external display.


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## charyuop (Oct 30, 2006)

pete said:


> its not about how low you can go, but how gracefully you can get back up! getting down requires flexibility and getting up requires strength, doing both in balance is tai chi... remember internal art, not external display.


 
That is very true. I did it last week. I tried to go lower than usual coz the master was there and I made a mess. The attacking hand of the Snake instead of ending up near my knee after getting up, it ended up on top of my knee while getting up...I had to push on the knee to get back streight up and when I did I lost balance.

Glad in the 8 form we repeat the movements 4 times so I had the other 3 times to do it correctly.


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## East Winds (Oct 31, 2006)

Charyuop,

My current weight is about 240lbs, so yes, tell me about losing weight!!!! Also I didn't start training Taiji until I was 50.

The secrets of "Snake" is good leg strength and flexibility, but the REAL secret is not to take too wide a stance. It is tempting to take a wide stance so that you can sit lower.  BUT, the pay off is, the wider the stance the more difficult it is to recover without having to heave your body weight forwward. Also the body should be upright, not leaning forward. As Pete rightly says it is about balance and grace. It is better to stay higher and perform the actions correctly, than distort the body in an attempt to be macho
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Good luck with your training

Very best wishes


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## charyuop (Oct 31, 2006)

East Winds said:


> Charyuop,
> 
> My current weight is about 240lbs, so yes, tell me about losing weight!!!! Also I didn't start training Taiji until I was 50.
> 
> ...


 
Thanx, this information is very useful. I thought it was the opposit (wider step better stence). I will start shortening my step and do some still stence with this smaller steps to strenghten my legs.

PS: Mine was not a way to criticize you, hope you didn't get offended. In you atavar you surely don't look you need to lose weight, actually I'd say it looks pretty a good shape.


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## East Winds (Oct 31, 2006)

Chryuop,

Absolutely no offence taken
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. My excuse for my weight is that I'm trying to make myself look like Yang Cheng-fu in his later years:rofl:. The good thing about Taiji is that you can still perform good quality forms irrespective of your build. And good quality forms depend entirely on correct  body structure. Its worth looking up Yang Cheng-fu's 10 Essences and trying to apply them to your form.

Very best wishes


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 31, 2006)

zDom said:


> I wish there were someone around here to teach me a Tai Chi patten


I with you on that!


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## Franzfri (Nov 30, 2006)

I usually am not worried about how low I get down (which is not very far). I always have to stop and think...left heel...right toe etc. and no fudging.  Then in the Yang long form getting up and into a rooster without falling over.  And now to make things worse I have to do the mirror image of the long form for my sifu in our private lessons.  Talk about being confused.  So far he's pestering me about my kicks, not about getting low.  I suppose getting low will be his next campagn.


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## Dronak (Dec 1, 2006)

After poking around a bit, I saw that http://www.chipellis.com/index2.htm has pictures of five different people doing the Snake Creeps Down posture.  Comparison photos can be interesting, especially when you've got one of the old masters.  One thing I noticed with these five pictures is that as you move forward in time, it looks like later practicioners tend to turn their supporting (right) foot and knee out more.  The first two look like their right leg is about perpendicular to the front left leg, the third one looks like it's turned out a little bit, and the last two look like they're turned out a lot.  I think turning the knee out like that makes it easier to sink down lower.  I'm not sure if it's correct or not.  I tend to use stances in tai chi much like I learned them for kung fu, and we were taught not to turn out the knee like that.  *shrug*  I don't really know what's best here, I'm just commenting on the difference I saw in the pictures, and how things seem to have changed over time.  (I'm certainly no expert, don't practice enough, and almost certainly make some mistakes, not copying my teacher perfectly either.)

The other responses here raised some good points.  It's probably better to take a higher stance and know that the motions are performed correctly than go too low too early.  As you practice, your body should get used to the movement, and you should be able to get lower in time.  I think you do want to stay relatively upright and not lean forward too much.  Interestingly, it looks to me like Yang Cheng Fu is leaning forward quite a bit in the picture on the page above.  Maybe it's just the picture though.

Just some thoughts since I'm popping in tonight.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 1, 2006)

Great pictures thanks for posting them. There are pictures somewhere of Chengfu doing snake creeps down when he was much younger and it looks different. If I can find it I will post it. 

My teacher does this much like Tung Ying Chieh but that was his teacher so I am not surprised. But that was Tung Hu Ling's teacher as well. This is much the same way I did snake creeps down before the tree jumped me. 

Not to go off post but if you ever get a chance to see an old film of Tung Hu Ling doing push hands you will see something amazing. He was very skilled.


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## East Winds (Dec 2, 2006)

Xue Sheng,

Was this the clip you were referring to?






Again, very impressive!!!

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 2, 2006)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> Was this the clip you were referring to?
> 
> ...


 
Very cool, Yes that is part of it; there is a very long section on the Tung family history tape. 

And I can tell you from personal experience that elbow to shoulder blade works very well, my Sifu has got me with than more than once, which is why I try not to let him get behind me.

Thank You for posting this, I will have to send it on to my Sifu I am sure he will enjoy seeing his old friend again.


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## charyuop (Dec 2, 2006)

I had seen that video before and seen it many times. I never get tired of watching it, I've always thought he is great!


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