# Aikido / MMA vs Taekwondo /MMA



## BritishAikido@ntlworld.co (Mar 17, 2009)

Before the Ki people get their ribbons in a twist or the Aikido puriststs soil their gis!! this is not about Aikido vs Taekwondo. It is about Rik Ellis a student of the ``Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido`` who also studies MMA. Rik was prepared to take his technique and positive spirit into the ring, as was Russell Dennis 6th dan Taekwondo. 
There is a video on `Aikido Ellis Video Channel` In a recent FCFN ( Full Contact Fight Night ) where Rik Ellis with a background in Aikido and trained in MMA meets Russell Dennis 6th dan Extreme TaeKwonDo. 
Rik Ellis of the " Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido " destroyed Russell Dennis in 46 seconds of the first round. 
Rik does not perform the classical Aikido that one would see on the mat, he demonstartes the positive action necessary to overwhealm an opponent. see: http://www.aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net It is the first fight on the video...
Rik Ellis says that in a real situation such as the street or in the MMA ring/cage Aikido cannot be performed in its classical sense as one sees it on the mat. He finds that ~Tenkan ~ Iriminage ~ Tenchinage ~ are some of the techniques that can be used successfully in close quater contact. Such as turning his opponent into the cage wall, or any wall for that matter.

Henry Ellis

No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more!! ....Kenshiro Abbe Sensei 1915 ~ 1985


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## terryl965 (Mar 17, 2009)

Well I will be your Huckabee here, To me it seem you are trying to say that TKD is not much because this fighter was able to destroy him in 46 seconds right? Well here is my .02 cents it is not a style but an individual fighter that will control any fight. I do not believe in a true style to be the best out there that the fighter makes the style not the other way around. If I took what you wa saying outof context I am sorry.


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## Brian King (Mar 17, 2009)

Thanks for sharing the video. I won't comment on the MMA stuff other to offer congratulations on the win to (your son or your grandson?) Rik Ellis and the wish for his continued success in whatever path his training takes him. 

I really liked some of the other clips on your site. The one of you teaching Aikido in New Mexico and the very old Judo clip with Abbe Sensei. I will be browsing around the site. I like the honest flavor of British Aikido (one of my first serious teachers is a older British (now an American) gentleman who earned his first Aikido black belt in 1965) Thanks again for hosting all those older films. Many of the names are just that to so many that practice the arts it is good to be able to put movement to the names. We stand on their shoulders and many are being forgotten and their contributions are being lost.

*Terryl965 wrote:*



> To me it seem you are trying to say that TKD is not much because this fighter was able to destroy him in 46 seconds right?


 
Terry I didnt read that in the op. I do agree with you that it is the fighter more than the specific martial style. It is often not the art that fails but the fighter. 

FWIW- I think the OP is about a fighter that also trains in Aikido and competes (which will drive some in the Aikido communities bunkers) and some pride in a relation and school mate winning his bout. Not another my art kicks your arts behind thread. I could be wrong but that is how I read it.

Regards
Brian King


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## BritishAikido@ntlworld.co (Mar 17, 2009)

Brian

Thank you for your positive comments, also for your additional comments on my video site. Rik is my son. He actually exchanged emails with Russel Dennis after the fight to check that he was ` really ` ok. The TKD corner were very sporting after the fight, Rik respected them for that.
I personally studied Judo before Aikido - Karate with M Harada Sensei - Kendo with Tomio Otani sensei. I respect all the m/a but not all of the fools in m/a.


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## Brian King (Mar 17, 2009)

> "Thank you for your positive comments, also for your additional comments on my video site. Rik is my son. He actually exchanged emails with Russel Dennis after the fight to check that he was ` really ` ok. The TKD corner were very sporting after the fight, Rik respected them for that.
> I personally studied Judo before Aikido - Karate with M Harada Sensei - Kendo with Tomio Otani sensei. I respect all the m/a but not all of the fools in m/a."


 
Sir you are welcome. I am sure that you are proud of your son. I am sure that it is every fathers dream to see his son excel at a shared passion. It must be like seeing a validation of a lifetime of sweating and bleeding. 



> I respect all the m/a but not all of the fools in m/a. 


 
Well I often think the same thing only to have the day pass to realize that it is often a mirror I am looking at. I have been too often the fool. So much so that I remember the old saw about there being a butt in every crowd and when ever in a crowd I look around trying to make sure that butt is not me. 

If we take this thread for instance it is a proud father posting about his sons successful fight. It is a person promoting their web site and sharing some videos. It is a practitioner of an art titty twisting other practitioners of his art that do not share the same training philosophies. 

Now if this thread was posted in the MMA section it might be about someone seeking to show an MMA Aikido-ka competing, a thread seeking comment and feedback on his sons performance while promoting a local fight scene and a web site.

Now if it was posted on say the TKD section it could easily be seen as a challenge and smear, a way of saying nah nah nah but sneakily. It would be like some (name any martial art style) guy going to your Aikido school and showing you your son and your students film of some Aikido-ka that he happened to beat up in a sort of underhanded way of saying my art is better/best While in one section not offensive at all yet in another you can expect emotional not in my house reactions. It is interesting isnt it, natural human reactions and relations pride and misunderstandings. Not limited to fools but includes the best of us. 

Here is recent story I am very proud of.

One of my students recently got taken to his knees by another student. No big deal but in this case the student doing the take down is four months old and has not ever really practiced our art of Systema (yet) but has watched a training or two from the sidelines. The person she took down was her father. She was in his arms and he was in an awkward position and looking over his shoulder when she reached up and got her tiny fingers behind some tendons in his neck and pulled them for a closer look see. He told me in was in so much pain and so proud at the same time. I share his pride. Some could say that ones art was weaker than anothers but it depends on the view others might say he was foolish being put into that position while still others might understand that a father now has a memory for a lifetime and his sharing it with me means that we will also have a shared moment of laughter and wonder two fools looking at a baby girl. One picture but many views.

Again thanks for the many video clips and relay my congratulations to your son for his win and the strength of character to call his opponent seeking his well being. 

Regards
Brian King


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2009)

Brian, the OP has posted this up on the TKD section, a duplicate post to which I answered.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74327


I'll repeat, does Grant Waterman know that his highlight reel is copied onto this website? Grant is the promoter of that show. I assume too as I can't find fight records for either fighter that this was a first fight for both? I think too it was semi pro rules with amateur gloves?
I'll ask Grant how the fight went as you really can't see anything as the camera is too far away.


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2009)

I think you may want to think about your statement that Ellis destoyed his opponent as I have the results from the promoter. You will see that it's a no contest. 

"WINNERS ARE IN BOLD.

*MOK RAHMAN *V MARK BROWN
U84 PRO MMA

MATT GORDON V *ADAM WOOLMER*
U93KG K1

ADAM WOOLMER V *CHRIS GREG*
U93 PRO MMA

JAMIE EVANS V *PAUL HARTLEY*
U77kg PRO MMA

*PADDY MOORE* V CRAIG WILSON
U65.8 PRO MMA

*JEREMY PALMER* v GARY TYLER
U61kg AMM MMA

ALEX MAKALE V *BELAL MIAH*
U70KG AMM MMA

*AUSTIN WATTS* V DAMON WRIGHT 
U73kg PRO MMA

*SCOTT POOLEY *V MAX HENCHY
UPRO MMA

*RUSSEL DENNIS V RICHARD ELLIS*
UNDER 80KG PRO MMA

*JOSH BAXTER *v CHRIS FUGA
U 70kg K1


www.fcfn.co.uk "


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## Brian King (Mar 18, 2009)

> "Brian, the OP has posted this up on the TKD section"


 
I saw that Tez3 hince my comments above in post number 5



> "You will see that it's a no contest."


 
I am assuming by your tone that 'no contest' means something other than one fighter was out classed. Why would a fight be declared no contest? A fighter injured and unable to continue the contest due to some kind of incidental or illegal contact or something like that?

Regarding the MMA video I am gratified to hear you say that you could not see anything, I could not either (other than a pretty dark haired bouncy lady and some lad with a feather in his hat) but figured that I didn't know what I was supposed to see LOL so kept my comments to myself.

Regards
Brian King


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2009)

Brian said:


> I saw that Tez3 hince my comments above in post number 5
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


LOL!
_No contest_ due to one fighter being injured accidently and unable to continue. If the move that injured him had been illegal the offending fighter would have been disqualified. If the injury had been caused by fighting and the ref stopped the fight the uninjured fighter would have been declared the winner by technical knockout/ref stoppage.

I had to say something as the promoter is a friend and I don't want people thinking that he has mismatches on his shows or that people think thats the standard of fighting we have here! 
Also despite doing neither TKD or Aikido as a style I really didn't like the first sentence of the OP, it was provocative to my mind.

I'll try to find more footage of the bouncy lady for you though rofl!


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## Brian King (Mar 18, 2009)

> If the move that injured him had been illegal the offending fighter would have been disqualified.


 
So a fighter getting kicked in the groin accidental and the fighter could not continue it would be declared no contest

A fighter getting kicked in the groin on purpose and can not continue the fighter that did the kick would be disqualified and the other fighter would get the win and the purse. 

Thumb to the eye could like the above be either accidental or on purpose

Is it intent that disqualifies? 

Is that correct? I see the refs warning the fighters watch the low blows and do not hit to the back of the head and such. Often warning a couple of times then deducting a point sometimes giving the fighter a 5 minute rest period before asking them if they can continue. Is it reputation and pride that keeps the injured fighter from saying no he cant continue when the ref asks them and collecting the easy win?

Are the guidelines/rules the same with this no contest thing across the different events?

It is off topic so please do not feel an obligation answering my questions.

Regards
Brian King


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2009)

Brian said:


> So a fighter getting kicked in the groin accidental and the fighter could not continue it would be declared no contest
> 
> A fighter getting kicked in the groin on purpose and can not continue the fighter that did the kick would be disqualified and the other fighter would get the win and the purse.
> 
> ...


 

No worries. You're right it's the intent that matters. Accidental injuries do happen and a no contest is usually the fairest way for both fighters. A thumb to the eye is a hard one to call, again though a no contest is probably the fairest way to call it. the fighters can rematch in the future if they wish.
 It's not usually left to the fighter or just the ref to decide whether a fighter is fit to carry on, the doctor or paramedic is called in to look at the injury and they'll tell the ref what they think, he'll or she (if its me the only female ref in Europe lol) then either stop the fight or allow it to continue after treatment.
 The accidental groin strikes I've seen are usually given the five minutes to recover as you said and they all have continued fighting. Personally I've never understood what the fuss was about rofl, (joking!) Other injuries are often fight stoppers and the fighter who's been stopped usually protests like heck about it. There is also a 'decision' that can be called doctors stoppage where the doc has signalled to the ref he thinks a fighter can't continue.We don't have a count at all unlike boxing. 
These rules are general across UK promotions. some may add things like no heel hooks, or no stamps etc but the rules about decisions etc are kept the same and depending on whether it's amateur, semi or pro the rules differ slightly about what strikes are allowed. The fouls are the same though. 
We have ours on our website if you fancy a look, www.prideandglory.biz


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## DBZ (Mar 18, 2009)

BritishAikido@ntlworld.co said:


> this is not about Aikido vs Taekwondo.


 
If this is not what it is about then why would you put it in the thread title? Why not say "check out this video, that guy was amazing!" Im not offended but i just think its funny. Its like if you were in the south your saying "this guy is horrible bless his heart"


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## BritishAikido@ntlworld.co (Mar 18, 2009)

Tez 3

I see you have copied and pasted the fight results as posted by Grant on the Cagewarriors forum, If you speak to Grant before I do, please advise him of the typo error having placed Russell Dennis name in bold. 
I think it is safe to assume that you were not at the FCFN night on the 8th of Feb ????  If you were, you would clearly have seen Rik Ellis 's arm raised as the winner.....I am sure that Grant will also tell you that as Rik left the cage he asked Rik to be a part of his squad for the next FCFN on the 16th of May. ( same venue ) Ask Grant to show you my video which I also sent him a copy ( filmed with Grants permission )  You will see that Rik Ellis was a clear winner.


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## Kumbajah (Mar 19, 2009)

BritishAikido@ntlworld.co said:


> Rik does not perform the classical Aikido that one would see on the mat, he demonstartes the positive action necessary to overwhealm an opponent.
> 
> Rik Ellis says that in a real situation such as the street or in the MMA ring/cage Aikido cannot be performed in its classical sense as one sees it on the mat. He finds that ~Tenkan ~ Iriminage ~ Tenchinage ~ are some of the techniques that can be used successfully in close quater contact. Such as turning his opponent into the cage wall, or any wall for that matter.



It will be interesting to see how his game develops - if more Aikido finds it's way into his game as he gains confidence and experience. I always thought there would be good opportunities for sankyo and nikkyo from the clinch.  

Please keep us updated - Congratulations to Rik, you and your school.


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## Kumbajah (Mar 19, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'll repeat, does Grant Waterman know that his highlight reel is copied onto this website? Grant is the promoter of that show.



The clip is posted on youtube if the uploader allows embedding, one would expect ( and hope) that it would end up on other websites. If they didn't want it, they wouldn't allow embedding. It's free advertising.


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2009)

Really?
*Is* it safe to say I wasn't there? I thinks it's not. I get around alot and if you took any notice  you'll see one of our sponsored fighters was fighting that night. You assume a lot including that posting such a provocative OP is acceptable, as someone said you are knocking a style and a man. 
If you had just came on and said hey my fighter did well instead of all that BS at the beginning of your OP no one would have said anything other than well done. This isn't CW, things aren't done like that here. Saying your fighter 'destroyed' another is not an attitude we in MMA here or on MT want to foster. You also posted up o a Judo forum in similiar vein "starting the Op with "_Before the Aikido purists soil themselves_" thats not exactly going to endear yourself to any section of the martial arts community. 
a lot of us are working hard to get over the impression that many have of MMA being practised by trash talking knuckleheads, you sadly have done nothing to help us take MMA forward. it makes me sad tbh.


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## BritishAikido@ntlworld.co (Mar 19, 2009)

Kumbajah

Thanks for some common sense. appreciated.

Tez3 
Takes a typo error and makes a big big deal from it.
Aikido does work in the street, but not as we see it on the mat / tatami ( tatami in case Tez3 picks me up on that as well and want's to tell Grant  ) In the 1950s and 60s the Americans  from the local air base would visit the Hut Dojo, they wanted to try for real, and we would fight them in the Hut pub car park. I believe that these were the first American students of Aikido. That was the traditional style of Kenshiro Abbe's Aikido that attracted me to it. That is what I teach today, that is the positive approach that Rik Ellis also demonstartes.


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2009)

BritishAikido@ntlworld.co said:


> Kumbajah
> 
> Thanks for some common sense. appreciated.
> 
> ...


 

What on earth are you talking about? that's nothing to do what what I'm talking about with your posts.

You saying your son *destroyed* his opponent is not a typo is it? Imagine how you'd feel if your son had lost and his opponent posted that. It's trash talk.

The first line of your post was provocative and unneccesary, also somewhat crude. You also posted it in two sections of MT trying to provoke more reaction. It comes across as a style v style thread.

Being snarky is pointless.


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