# Am I paying too much?  Is this the norm?



## MissPriss (Aug 29, 2013)

Hi there, I'm hoping to get some insight from those of you with experience in the industry.  Background:  I have a 7 year old daughter who loves martial arts.  In March I started her with WTTU Taekwondo.  I paid an upfront down payment of $210 (I'm assuming this was for the outfit??), in addition I pay $137 a month regardless of how many sessions she attends a week (only 3 days a week are offered), and I have recently discovered belt testing is every 6 weeks at $79/test - note Canadian $.  Is this normal?  For the first 2 belt tests I was fine with it because she had the forms down well.  But this summer I had her in it mainly to keep her busy, so we missed some weeks with holidays and to be honest I didn't think they would be doing testing.  Next thing I know the teacher is telling me to register her for the test coming up - which she clearly wasn't ready for.  "She'll pass", he tells me.  This got me thinking.  I understand the concept at this age to gain confidence, etc, but I'm not going to register her for the test if she hasn't been practising and knows it.  Apparently they want all the kids doing the tests regardless if they have the moves done correctly or not.  I have a bit of an issue with this.

Just a note, I'm not looking for an association that trains students for sport sparing, etc.  I'm looking for strictly real life self defense that will actually work.  I am now under the impression that this may not be the right fit for her and I should look at ITF Taekwondo? or another discipline.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.


----------



## Steve (Aug 29, 2013)

I don't train in TKD, so I won't comment on that part of it.  But from a business/consumer standpoint, it sounds like YOU have identified some red flags, and are looking for confirmation.  I'd say, trust your instincts.  If you have a bad feeling about the business practices and prices you're paying, trust that.

Regarding practical self defense for kids, I think that every child is a little different, and finding a style that suits your child, which feels right to you (I'm a big proponent of parental intuition) and which suits your budget is the best one.  In other words, if your child likes it, he/she will train regularly, enjoy practice and develop both the skills in the style AND the life skills we as parents are trying to impart (ie, self discipline, deliberate practice, a sense of teamwork, etc).  

That said, I am a huge advocate of grappling arts, such as Judo, BJJ or wrestling, particularly for kids.  The culture and prices for each vary, so if you're looking for something more formal/martial arts like, Judo is a great fit.  Wrestling is very sport oriented, but kids learn body awareness, a strong work ethic and are very fit.  BJJ is kind of in the middle, culture wise.  Less formal than Judo, but more martial artsy than wrestling.

I believe that the skills are MUCH more practical in a grappling art for children's self defense, but that's another post for another thread.  

I want to be clear that I'm not bashing on TKD, which I know is a great art.  But, the business model can be very troublesome, and the reputation that TKD has of promoting belt factories and focusing more on generating revenue than anything else is well deserved in that there are many, many schools which do this.  

Good luck, and keep us posted regardless of what you choose to do.


----------



## clfsean (Aug 29, 2013)

Ditto pretty much everything Steve said, except I look at it from a striking, rather than grappling POV. That being said though, grappling is found in striking based arts, although it's not the norm & crux of practice, it should be there.

It sounds exactly like this school is a belt factory given his statement about the upcoming test. The school I train at currently is new & growing, but my teacher recently told a student that he wasn't testing. We only test once every 4 months. He could've used the fees & such to be certain, but there's got to be a point of quality & if it's not there, it's not there no matter the fees.


----------



## dancingalone (Aug 29, 2013)

The short answer is that you won't easily find any commercial arrangement that teaches truly viable self-defense skills to 7 year olds.  There are lots of reasons for this, but this thread probably isn't the best place to discuss it.  

However, you CAN find ma schools that have a serious attitude to them where focus, discipline, and physical skills (not necessarily the same as self-defense, but hey it's good to learn how to kick and punch correctly) are stressed.  I wouldn't necessarily look at the "brand" of the style such as ITF tae kwon do as an indicator for what you're seeking.  Instead, you'll need to dig deeper and actually go watch the children's classes at all the schools you're interested in, and probably multiple times at that.  Look at the senior ranks... How old are they?  Do you see their level of performance as something you would want for your daughter?  Are they crisp - do they look alert and prepared?  If so, the school might be a good one to try out.

On the other hand, if you see a lot of playing around and you have higher belts with lazy kicks, it's probably more of a fun activity school than a serious one for training martial arts.


----------



## Kenpo5.0Hawker (Aug 29, 2013)

My school is testing this Sat. I won't be testing but I've been asked to come and participate. This will help me get a feel for what's required of me for my next belt etc. as I'm not actively testing no additional cash is required although testing normally costs us $40 bucks. Obviously a teacher has got to pay the bills. So the extra cost of testing really helps my school  stay afloat. It will help keep my teacher available to me. The guy needs to feed his fam just as much as I do. in old days students prob paid a larger percent of income so the teacher was available instead of working elsewhere to provide for his fam.  
My Teach seems very fair and not profit orientated. If you have issues with this sort of thing go get another teacher/school. My old TKD Academy was very tough during testing. While intimidating I knew I earned my belts. My daddy didn't buy them and my education was far better for that. go find that. It's out there. 

Now that I'm older I really don't give a damn about the color on my waist. I just crave the skills possessed by the advanced students. My first class I was paired with a JR Brownbelt who was fifteen. Five min into out session I realized than despite my history of bar fights etc. he could whip me twice over.. And three times on Sunday! That's when I knew I'd found my home. 

Try to see if you teach wants money or if he's trying to get you going to the test for other reasons. Sounds kinds money driven to me based on what you have told me. But I might be very wrong. 

His promise of "she will pass" sounds bad at face value but I couldn't say that's enough to label his school a McDojo..
Tom


----------



## arnisador (Aug 29, 2013)

In the U.S., paying at least $100/month is now pretty standard, and up to $150/month is not shocking.


----------



## billc (Aug 29, 2013)

Yes, on the post about 7 year olds and self-defense.  Have you looked at martial arts programs through the Canadian equivalent of the Park District or YMCA...it is not only cheaper, but for a 7 year old who may not even stay with the art, it will save you the worry that you are getting ripped off.  A lot of these programs are as good as commercial schools...but without the constant need to keep the lights on by charging for every little thing you do at the school...


----------



## Kenpo5.0Hawker (Aug 29, 2013)

arnisador said:


> In the U.S., paying at least $100/month is now pretty standard, and up to $150/month is not shocking.


 Good call Arnisador. 

The OP should concidder this. When I used to train horses and thier riders I'd charge $25 for an hour lesson with a minumum of two classes a week, and I was doing it cheap. My Kempo classes are only $120 for eight or more classes a month. 

Tom


----------



## frank raud (Aug 29, 2013)

Where in Canada are you? May be able to make some possible suggestions based on location.


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 29, 2013)

MissPriss said:


> Hi there, I'm hoping to get some insight from those of you with experience in the industry.  Background:  I have a 7 year old daughter who loves martial arts.  In March I started her with WTTU Taekwondo.  I paid an upfront down payment of $210 (I'm assuming this was for the outfit??), in addition I pay $137 a month regardless of how many sessions she attends a week (only 3 days a week are offered), and I have recently discovered belt testing is every 6 weeks at $79/test - note Canadian $.  Is this normal?  For the first 2 belt tests I was fine with it because she had the forms down well.  But this summer I had her in it mainly to keep her busy, so we missed some weeks with holidays and to be honest I didn't think they would be doing testing.  Next thing I know the teacher is telling me to register her for the test coming up - which she clearly wasn't ready for.  "She'll pass", he tells me.  This got me thinking.  I understand the concept at this age to gain confidence, etc, but I'm not going to register her for the test if she hasn't been practising and knows it.  Apparently they want all the kids doing the tests regardless if they have the moves done correctly or not.  I have a bit of an issue with this.
> 
> Just a note, I'm not looking for an association that trains students for sport sparing, etc.  I'm looking for strictly real life self defense that will actually work.  I am now under the impression that this may not be the right fit for her and I should look at ITF Taekwondo? or another discipline.
> 
> Any feedback is greatly appreciated.



First -- some reality.  She's 7.  There's very little real, effective self defense she can be taught when all a bad guy has to do is quite literally pick her up.  Please note that I am not saying that she can't get real benefits that incidentally improve her ability to protect herself -- but that you need a realistic understanding of what can be done along those lines at her age.  

As to costs, testing... I can't say what's normal in your area, but they don't feel out of line for some of the more commercial places around me.  But you're locked in a for a period of time, I suspect, since many commercial places rely on contracts.  Your mileage may vary -- but you may not be able to break that contract very easily.  So... use your experience there, and if you don't like the set up, start looking at others before that contract ends.  That way, you can move from one to the next with little lapse.


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 29, 2013)

Wow that's expensive.  I spoiled I guess


----------



## MissPriss (Aug 29, 2013)

Thank you for all the feedback, I really appreciate it.  Yes, I realize that she is only 7 but I would rather get her started in the right direction then keep switching disciplines.  I'm obviously not looking for her to be defending herself right now, it's the skills she's developing now that will improve and assist her as she gets older.

I did consider Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I'm just not convinced in a real world altercation that it's going to the ground.  I always thought it was more advantageous to get upon on your feet as fast as possible.  So I was leaning more towards standing disciplines.  I think people are really on the grappling, etc band wagon because of MMA (IMO no offenses) but I've have yet to see UFC - Street Edition.  

The ones I'm really interested in she will have to be older.  So other options are Wing Chun, Aikido - they offer children's classes.

If those with experience feel TKD is a good base, I'll suck up the cost.  I just want to make sure that after 5 years of doing forms she's not in an altercation (school bully, etc) and can only think of what form will work.


----------



## Steve (Aug 29, 2013)

Of course you have to pick the style that works for you. But judo is awesome.  Hitting people with the ground hurts a lot.  

Regarding age, don't be fooled.  Most styles taught now are about the same age.  Judo, bjj, Okinawan karate, wing chun and aikido are all developed in the late 1800 early 1900.  They all extend back further, but the modern schools are based upon curriculums developed relatively recently.  Guys like ip man, carlos gracie, jigoro kano and the rest were all pretty much contemporaries.

Point I'm trying to make is don't be fooled. 

As for grappling, I made my older daughter train for at least a year.  She won't be able to defeat 29 Ninjas in a dark alley, but if a date gets any ideas, she will have no trouble putting him to sleep.  I'll make my five year old do the same.  



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Kenpo5.0Hawker (Aug 29, 2013)

I had loads of fun in TKD when I was seven. But I do think Wing Chun is very cool. I'd go check out that school before making a decision. 

Also think its very cool your starting her at seven. My daughter is eight and started Kempo a few months ago. It's been great for her. 

Tom


----------



## WaterGal (Aug 29, 2013)

I'd recommend looking at other places.  It's not the price, per se - that kind of monthly rate is pretty normal (at least where I'm at), and testing fees are pretty common (though not necessarily that high or that frequent).  The issue that I see is that he's passing students who are not qualified.  That's done, as far as I've seen, either because they care more about making money than making sure the students are good, or because the teacher feels bad about being strict with children.  Neither of which is helpful to your kid.


----------



## MJS (Aug 30, 2013)

MissPriss said:


> Hi there, I'm hoping to get some insight from those of you with experience in the industry.  Background:  I have a 7 year old daughter who loves martial arts.  In March I started her with WTTU Taekwondo.  I paid an upfront down payment of $210 (I'm assuming this was for the outfit??), in addition I pay $137 a month regardless of how many sessions she attends a week (only 3 days a week are offered), and I have recently discovered belt testing is every 6 weeks at $79/test - note Canadian $.  Is this normal?  For the first 2 belt tests I was fine with it because she had the forms down well.  But this summer I had her in it mainly to keep her busy, so we missed some weeks with holidays and to be honest I didn't think they would be doing testing.  Next thing I know the teacher is telling me to register her for the test coming up - which she clearly wasn't ready for.  "She'll pass", he tells me.  This got me thinking.  I understand the concept at this age to gain confidence, etc, but I'm not going to register her for the test if she hasn't been practising and knows it.  Apparently they want all the kids doing the tests regardless if they have the moves done correctly or not.  I have a bit of an issue with this.
> 
> Just a note, I'm not looking for an association that trains students for sport sparing, etc.  I'm looking for strictly real life self defense that will actually work.  I am now under the impression that this may not be the right fit for her and I should look at ITF Taekwondo? or another discipline.
> 
> Any feedback is greatly appreciated.



I don't do TKD either, however, it seems to me that this is a place that has some serious red flags.  If your child is really interested in the arts, I'd find another school.  As for the testing...well, thats a joke IMO.  Seems like a lot of TKD schools often get a bad rep and it's things like this that are the cause.  I'm sure there are some good, trustworthy TKD schools out there, but then again.....

In the end, you have to make the final choice.  Personally, I'd stay away from places like that, and find something else.  What else is in your area?


----------



## J W (Aug 30, 2013)

The price doesn't seem too outlandish to me (based on the costs of schools in my area), but it sounds like you have some doubts about the quality of this school (and based on your brief post I probably would too). If there are other schools in your area, then it couldn't hurt to stop in, watch a class, talk to the instructors and see if they seem more reputable. 

Does your daughter enjoy going to that school? One thing to keep in mind is that if she enjoys what she's doing now and you move her to another school and she doesn't like it, it might turn her off to martial arts altogether. Whatever you choose, make sure it's something she'll actually want to do.


----------



## ballen0351 (Aug 30, 2013)

If your into Competing and not sure BJJ is right for you.  I'd highly recommend Judo.  You get the best of both great takedowns and some ground work not even close to the lvl of BJJ but more then most Karate schools I've been too.  Plus Judo seems to be a lot cheaper.  I pay 110 a month for my Goju classes and 25 a month at Judo.  
We took my kids to a judo comp to watch and they loved it.  My daughter is 9 and she begged to start taking it.  
The best advice however is try a few different schools and styles let her pick the one she likes the best.  Keeping in mind as already said no styles going to teach a 7 year old to defeat an adult.  Look for things that teach them situational awareness.  Things like in public keep you mommy in site at all times.  Never walk away from your parents,  what adults you can trust like police fire teachers etc.  Scream yell make a scene if someone trys to take you.  I always tell my kids to scream this is not my daddy this is not my daddy instead of just yelling so people don't just think its a bad kid getting in trouble.  This is not my daddy is at least going to get people to look.  
At the end however Martial Arts should be fun


----------



## billc (Aug 31, 2013)

> This is not my daddy is at least going to get people to look.



Especially if your child is just mad at you and wants to get you in trouble by yelling it when they are with you...all sorts of hilarity would ensue I am sure...


----------



## Argus (Aug 31, 2013)

MissPriss said:


> Thank you for all the feedback, I really appreciate it.  Yes, I realize that she is only 7 but I would rather get her started in the right direction then keep switching disciplines.  I'm obviously not looking for her to be defending herself right now, it's the skills she's developing now that will improve and assist her as she gets older.
> 
> I did consider Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I'm just not convinced in a real world altercation that it's going to the ground.  I always thought it was more advantageous to get upon on your feet as fast as possible.  So I was leaning more towards standing disciplines.  I think people are really on the grappling, etc band wagon because of MMA (IMO no offenses) but I've have yet to see UFC - Street Edition.
> 
> ...



Wing Chun and Aikido are definitely great options when she gets a little older. I'd definitely like to second Steve's advice on Judo, though. It's grappling, but it's stand up, and I think would be a really good introduction to martial arts.


----------



## granfire (Sep 1, 2013)

MissPriss said:


> Thank you for all the feedback, I really appreciate it.  Yes, I realize that she is only 7 but I would rather get her started in the right direction then keep switching disciplines.  I'm obviously not looking for her to be defending herself right now, it's the skills she's developing now that will improve and assist her as she gets older.
> 
> I did consider Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I'm just not convinced in a real world altercation that it's going to the ground.  I always thought it was more advantageous to get upon on your feet as fast as possible.  So I was leaning more towards standing disciplines.  I think people are really on the grappling, etc band wagon because of MMA (IMO no offenses) but I've have yet to see UFC - Street Edition.
> 
> ...



The prices seem not too bad.
The school I trained in charged onward of 55 a month, but the school was open 6 days a week (although the instructor did not want to see students more than three times), tests, every 2 month, 50 for color belts, 95 for BBs.
The school the old man ran (my instructor's instructor) was quiet a bit higher in cost over all. Same program, same schedule....

However, we had a minimum attendance for tests. Higher up in rank you had to participate more often in the two to four month ahead of time. Which I seem to see was a bit of a problem over the summer. Which is ok, you don't want the kid to burn out. Matter of fact I heard a parent complain about TKD being an ongoing thing, not seasonal like the rest of the kid's activities (but he also brouht his daughter in every single day, had her burned out by the time she reached her BB)
I am a bit concerned about the 'she'll pass' having sat in on many tests. Yes, most every kid did pass. Unless you really could not get your form together in three tries, you passed. Unless you could not break the board (red belt on up for us) you passed. A lot of kids got their next belt basically for not sucking too badly. 
However, we had the policy, if you should unexpectedly not pass, the next test was on the house, until you did pass.
We actually got a couple of freebies when the kid did not break boards a couple of times. I found that to be the biggest learning experience, to tell you the truth!


As to what style, MMA is probably best: If you fight standing up, you are toast when you go to ground. Note: When, not if.
When you grapple, you get your head kicked in by a standing up fighter, until you get him/her down to your playing field.

Several years ago the organization instituted what they called at that time 'Minor Fields of Study', a series of classes supposedly supplementing TKD. One was Hanmudo, a mix of Hapkido and another traditional Korean art, including a lot of joint locks and work with pressure points and throws. Much fun, but rather painful after an evening of practice 
the other was 'ground escapes' which then morphed into BJJ. The initial idea being that as TKDs our strength is on our feet, but poop happens and we need to be able to get quickly and fast back on our feet to our game. "It makes us better fighters" as my instructor put it back then.

I think the real self defense benefits girls get from Martial Arts is that they will be fit, self aware and confident. I have seen a few little girls come through the doors, having a bit of a hard time to do the things they otherwise do not get to do: Be loud and assertive, forceful even. There is not much most anybody can do when the bad guy is much larger, or carries a weapon.
But being self confident makes everybody much less of a target.


----------



## Tai Mantis Warrior (Sep 2, 2013)

OP, I tend to agree with you I think the BJJ/MMA bandwagon is based much on the success of UFC type submission matches and not very accurate in terms of real life fights in the street.  But that being said, neither is a taekwondo dojo.

I started training in taekwondo almost 20 years ago, and love it although my main art now is tai chi praying mantis, which I have been practising for the last 8 or 9 years.  Taekwondo is a great art if you are into sports competition, conditioning, and superior flexibility.  However, for practical self defense there are better systems.  

I think all those expenses you listed are too much.  I pay $100 per month at my tai mantis school, with unlimited classes (up to 9 per week, each one is 1.5 to 2 hours long) and I still thought that was a bit too much.  But I did a lot of shopping around in terms of what the arts in my area offered and their cost.. I could have found less expensive places but the mantis system seemed to provide everything I looked for, such as trapping, joint locks, high kicking, grappling, throwing, etc.  At my school there are only five levels and you test once every one to three years depending on how much effort you put in.  

In short, taekwondo is a great art - still my second favorite after mantis - but its focus is on flexibility, conditioning, and beautiful high spinning kicks.  Overall, in my opinion not the most practical self defense system in the way it is presently taught in most western schools.  There are other systems that are more suited and that still involve high kicking, such as krav maga, jun fan jeet kune do, kickboxing, muay thai, and the various substyles of northern praying mantis.  These arts all offer everything taekwondo does, plus more.  

And I personally would not recommend wing chun, i think their punches tend to be the softest unless of course you've been training for many years.  

And before the BJJ/MMA guys start hating on my comment here, I think these systems have their uses for self defense but based on my experiences with my best friend and training partner who is a 15 year veteran of BJJ, these are more suited to submission type sport matches than real life self defense.  But that being said, at their highest levels any art can be extremely effective.

For a young girl, I would think taekwondo would be a good introduction but she may get more out of other more well rounded arts.  In terms of self defense efficiency and short term training, I would suggest jeet kune do or krav maga.


----------



## Instructor (Sep 3, 2013)

OP I agree with others here.  It's a free country, shop around.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 19, 2013)

MissPriss said:


> Hi there, I'm hoping to get some insight from those of you with experience in the industry.  Background:  I have a 7 year old daughter who loves martial arts.  In March I started her with WTTU Taekwondo.  I paid an upfront down payment of $210 (I'm assuming this was for the outfit??), in addition I pay $137 a month regardless of how many sessions she attends a week (only 3 days a week are offered), and I have recently discovered belt testing is every 6 weeks at $79/test - note Canadian $.  Is this normal?  For the first 2 belt tests I was fine with it because she had the forms down well.  But this summer I had her in it mainly to keep her busy, so we missed some weeks with holidays and to be honest I didn't think they would be doing testing.  Next thing I know the teacher is telling me to register her for the test coming up - which she clearly wasn't ready for.  "She'll pass", he tells me.  This got me thinking.  I understand the concept at this age to gain confidence, etc, but I'm not going to register her for the test if she hasn't been practising and knows it.  Apparently they want all the kids doing the tests regardless if they have the moves done correctly or not.  I have a bit of an issue with this.
> 
> Just a note, I'm not looking for an association that trains students for sport sparing, etc.  I'm looking for strictly real life self defense that will actually work.  I am now under the impression that this may not be the right fit for her and I should look at ITF Taekwondo? or another discipline.
> 
> Any feedback is greatly appreciated.


Everything you describe is fairly normative in my area (sadly) regardless of the art.  That goes for pretty much any art, from ninjutsu to karate to all manner of Korean arts.  Commericialism is rampant.  As Dancingalone said, look at the actual school and instructor rather than the brand or art.


----------

