# 100 pushups by Christmas



## newGuy12

Okay, I have a goal of being able to do 100 pushups by Christmas time.  One sitting, BAM, 100 pushups.  I have found a resource on the web that should help:

http://100pushups.info/

I also have made a copy in plain ascii text.  If anyone wants to join me in this, you can PM me for the ascii copy if you wish.

No more "noodle-armed" Robert, no.  We will hit the 3 significant digits of the base10 number system, that's right.  Any martial arts student should be able to drop down and rip them out, so here we go.


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## exile

newGuy12 said:


> Okay, I have a goal of being able to do 100 pushups by Christmas time.  One sitting, BAM, 100 pushups.  I have found a resource on the web that should help:
> 
> http://100pushups.info/
> 
> I also have made a copy in plain ascii text.  If anyone wants to join me in this, you can PM me for the ascii copy if you wish.
> 
> No more "noodle-armed" Robert, no.  We will hit the 3 significant digits of the base10 number system, that's right.  Any martial arts student should be able to drop down and rip them out, so here we go.



newGuy, this is how you can do it very simply. (NB: I said simply, _not_ easily... read on...)

Get thee to a gym or rec center weight room which has a power rack. Move a bench into the power rack and set the pins so that you are able to start with a barbell on its holding posts at a height maybe three inches, no more, below the length of your fully extended arm. This will put the barbell well within your strongest leverage range for a bench press. Any lower, and you will reduce the weight you can lift, due to leverage factors. Stay in your strongest range, and instead of doing a one foot rep in time T, do four three-inch reps in time T. 

What you will find is that you can almost certainly add around 100 lbs right off the bat to your full-range bench press weight. Give yourself plenty of recovery time: do a set of 20 or so benches under the conditions I've described, and then wait a full week to come back. Next time, add another 5 to 10 lbs., and give yourself another week. And then add another 5 lbs or so.

Doing this kind of routine, I was able in 2 years to go from around 180lb benches to a 405lb very, very short range benches. And after about four months on that routine, I could knock out in excess of 100 push ups easily&#8212;even with my feet on a bench, well above my head height in pushup position. I still can, and I'm more than 60 years old. 

Develop a very strong, short-range bench in a power rack and pushups become a piece of cake. I started out as a pathetic ectomorphic hard-gainer; if I could do it, _anyone_ can. Good luck!


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## newGuy12

Oh, my!  No joke?

There is a gymnasium right down the street from me, and the people who run it don't make you sign a contract.  You can even come in and pay for one single visit if you wish, and I think its $25 / month (or less / month if you do prepay for a longer time).  Oh, this is something.

I can also use the pull-down pulley machine (I cannot do a single pull-up now, and this will be a "baby step" toward that goal).  A Marine friend of mine told me that I should do pullups as well as pushups.

Also, I have a somewhat chronic knee condition that a friend who is a physical therapist told me could be helped by using the leg machines (very carefully, very slowly).

Man, thank you for the tip, exile!  Whew!  Tomorrow is Saturday, the perfect day for the "one day per week" power-rack exercise!




High Regards,

Robert


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## Carol

I'll join you for the 100 pushups by Christmas goal, Robert     I dunno if I will get there....but there's only one way to find out


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## Lynne

Alright!  This is the motivation I need to work on my pushups.  I can only do a few full-range pushups.  If I can add a few more, I'd be very happy.

I have tendonitis in one hand.  Is it ok with you guys if I do them on my knuckles???


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## exile

newGuy12 said:


> Oh, my!  No joke?
> 
> There is a gymnasium right down the street from me, and the people who run it don't make you sign a contract.  You can even come in and pay for one single visit if you wish, and I think its $25 / month (or less / month if you do prepay for a longer time).  Oh, this is something.



If you're interested in the theory behind this approach, it's contained in a series of books by Peter Sisco and John Little. The approach is called the Power Factor training system, because it makes use of a metric called the power factor&#8212;total weight moved divided by total time&#8212;as a measure of training effectiveness. Their fundamental premise is that full-range reps, which take you out of your optimal biomechanical range for any given excercise, do not recruit the maximum percentage of neuromuscular activation units available. According to the research they cite, that percentage is determined strictly by the demands imposed by a given resistence. In other words, 250lbs that you can lift relatively easily because it's at the very top of your optimal movement range still demands more neural activation to kick in than 150lbs that are much harder for you to lift because you're lowering the weight to the point where you're fighting bad leverage angles to move the weight&#8212;and muscle strength increases in proportion to the number of muscle activation groups required over a given period of time.  The short story is, in spite of perceived difficulty, you activate more neuromuscular groups to lift a heavier weight than you do a lighter weight. There's actually a lot of very sophisticated sports physiology research in this area, and the evidence seems quite unequivocal. 

It's not just the bench press. A simple application of the same principle involves biceps. You can start in a weak position and try to horse a short barbell up and down in a curl, but that barbell won't weigh nearly as much as your own body weight. But if you stand on a box or a bench high enough that you can easily pull yourself into your strongest position on a chinning bar with your palms facing inward, and do very short range chins on that bar, you will in effect be doing the same exercise as the barbell biceps curl, but using your full body weight (you'll be getting some support from your lats, so it's something of a compound exercise, always a good thing; but still most of the effort will come from your biceps). After a while, you can add 10lbs, then 15lbs and so on to a chain-belt around your waist. I can now do about 20 such chins with 50lbs wrapped around my waist, which is the equivalent of 20 230lb curls&#8212;something I would never be able to do starting with a 230lb barbell at an ordinary curling station in a gym trying to lift the barbell up to near my chin from its rest position. Similar considerations apply to seated shoulder presses and leg presses (much easier on your spine than squats, and if you do the same kind of short range presses you can load more than enough weight onto the leg press machine to compensate for the fact that the movement is at a 45º angle to the vertical) It's well worth experimenting with this general approach for a few months to see how quickly your strength increases. The crucial bit: you must allow sufficient recovery time! The more weight you horse into the air, the more time you need to allow a full recovery before the actual muscle growth can occur; if you overtrain on this kind of program, you're  _really_ overtraining and you won't get anywhere. High intensity programs (of which the Sisco-Little system is just one) pretty much demand that you allow plenty of time to recover. Don't listen to people who insist that you lift every other day; it doesn't work like that. Sisco and Little cite controlled muscle biopsy studies showing that even after a week, muscles implicated in a high-intensity training session are still recovering. And this is especially true for people who aren't taking anabolic substances, and whose late teens and early twenties are comfortably behind them....



newGuy12 said:


> I can also use the pull-down pulley machine (I cannot do a single pull-up now, and this will be a "baby step" toward that goal).  A Marine friend of mine told me that I should do pullups as well as pushups.



He's dead right&#8212;it's a terrific exercise.



newGuy12 said:


> Also, I have a somewhat chronic knee condition that a friend who is a physical therapist told me could be helped by using the leg machines (very carefully, very slowly).



Yes, because you build up the muscle around the knee and help stabilize the patella. I had a condition called chondromalacia, a kind of erosion of the surface of the patella, for a number of years, and I found that the best treatment for it was a program that built up the lower quads around the knee joint. Increased muscle mass helps build up bone density, but it also serves to help proted the bone itself.



newGuy12 said:


> Man, thank you for the tip, exile!  Whew!  Tomorrow is Saturday, the perfect day for the "one day per week" power-rack exercise!
> 
> High Regards,
> 
> Robert



Excellent, Robert, give it a shot and see&#8212;start slowly, mind you, and go steadily. There is a big jump at the beginning because you're able to take advantage of that enormous advantage you get from working exclusively in the strongest leverage range of the lifts you're doing; once you've started, then a small but steady increase in weights each session&#8212;I aim at 5lbs above the weight I used last time on that particular exercise&#8212;will keep your gains coming steadily. Patience, and making sure you don't give in to the temptation to throw in another workout before you've fully recovered from the last one, are the keys....


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## Big Don

Carol Kaur said:


> I'll join you for the 100 pushups by Christmas goal, Robert     I dunno if I will get there....but there's only one way to find out


Count me in as well!


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## Cruentus

O.K....

If there is anything I'll admit to being a "master" at, it's pushups. 

Last time I had someone else test me, I did 105 in 2 minutes TO MILITARY STANDARD. It's those last 3 words that make the difference, because I can do at least 250 (not in 2 minutes, but w/o stopping) but not nessicarily to military standard. Doing it to military standard with someone else (one of my military friends in my case, so that is how I know) counting and timing makes things much more difficult (btw, Rich Parson's can probably vouch for my integrity on this one).

So... how'd I do it?

I am sure that there are different ways of achieving the same goal, but I'll let you in on how I did it. 

Start w/ doing as many as you can do to perfect standard. Focus on speed, touching the ground with your chest, and locking your arms all the way. Many people think that they are doing puchups with good form, but I find that they are often wrong. So don't cheat yourself.

So, let's say that you do 30 with good form, and your spent. Force out 10 more with questionable form, then stop. If ya drop, ya drop, but try not to.

Rest for 2-5 minutes or so. Then do another set the same; 30 good form plus 10 questionable. You will fatigue much faster on the second set, so you can go into a rest position. A rest position is where you stay up, but you can sag in the middle, or arch your back (I prefer arch) to rest, and you can alternate weight on either hand, but try not to completely lift your palms from the ground. 

Then rest again, and do one last set the same as above.

Do this every other day. But, each time you do it, look to increase your "perfect form" pushups my one rep. So, in the said example, you would do 31 instead of 30 perfect form per set.

You will reach a point when your body will adapt to the exercise, and you will feel like you can increase by more then one rep. So, in a few days, you might be doing 35 reps perfect, feeling like you could do 5 more. Go ahead and do them. Then, next time, increase by 1 rep again from your previous increase (so, 41 reps perfect).

Keep doing this, and if you are relatively fit you should reach your goal long before Christmas.

2 things to remember; this is at least as much mental as it is physical. You will reach a point where you feel like you "can't" do 1 more rep then what you did last session. That's Bull. You can, it's just a mental barrier that you need to overcome. Last, don't neglect speed. Don't sacrifice form, but speed is what will enable you to reach your goal.

Cool. Have fun! 

 :cheers:


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

Count me in on the 100 pushup bandwagon! ​


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## Ceicei

Count me in.  I need to do this anyway in preparing for my black belt.

- Ceicei


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## newGuy12

Okay, then!  With the help of exile's trick, the Sisco-Little system, and Cruentus' tip, we are sure to reach the goal.  We'll be busting them out like we are in the Regiment by Christmas time (or whatever other "winter solstice" event is applicable for any user).

When we gather with friends that we don't see often, and we swap stories, and catch up, and everyone wonders what we've been up to, we can demonstrate -- hehe, "Let me take just a second and bust out 100 pushups here, dudes!"  Whew!

Also, the Sisco-Little discussion above makes me think of something that I saw on the youtube site the other day.  It was a video of Bruce Lee.  It showed him punch a man from only 2 inches.  Though it was only two inches from the man, the man fell right down!

Haha -- later it showed Bruce Lee do a skipping side kick into a padded shield held up by a partner.  The partner went flying.  The guy said that when Bruce Lee kicked you in that way, it felt as if you had been hit by a car!

Okay, we have been given good insight, into good training methods, now all we have to do is hunker down and execute!



:shooter:

And regarding knuckle pushups, yes, of course.  I will do the knuckle pushups as well.  That way, I will have load-bearing on the arm similiar to a punch. 

And yes, the Marine guys I know, they told me, to make the push-up correct, the stomach has to hit the ground.  If you wish to impress the military friends, you have to do it that way.




Thanks,

Robert


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## Zakonax

Hello all!

One of my first posts here, and i'd like to also say, i'm going to jump on this bandwagon! will be good to keep each other updated with progress.

I haven't done the "test" yet, but I believe I can do about 25 full "military style" pushups in one go.

100 pushups on Christmas Day morning! that's a good target!!


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## exile

The Unofficial MartialTalk Pushup Club seems to be well and truly launched! 

There's a neat payoff here: everyone who can do 100 good-form pushups on Christmas day can then set their New Year's resolution for 2008 to do 101 pushups. And when people ask you what your New Year's resolution is, you can really impress them by telling them that, and it will be the literal truth... and then you can add the extra pushup to the 100 you _know_ you can do, on January 1st, and you'll be honorably done with it for the rest of the year! :lol:


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## newGuy12

Yes, we can put benchmarks in this thread as well, as we see fit to.  I just did 9, but they were good form.  I maxed out at 16 in class Thursday.  Perhaps being new there is a great variance in how many I can do?  

Nonetheless, its 9 good ones for me tonight, that's my starting point -- 9 good ones.

knuckles -- on the concrete driveway, "oldschool style"!!!



:viking3:


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## still learning

Hello, Great article....Thank-you for sharing this 100 push-ups excerise program.   

It seems to make alot of sense.

Just wondering if we should full up and down style? or short burst style?

I would think army style of full up and down will be the most benifical?
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Every heard of the "Judo God"  Masahiko Kimura?  He was unbeatable in JUDO pre-world war 2,  He use do 900 push-ups a day, everyday.  If you can a chance please learn and read about him?

For myself.....may I join the band wagon too?   ....we do push-ups in every class and we do add varietions of it too....

Aloha and thank-you for sharing!


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## newGuy12

still learning said:


> I would think army style of full up and down will be the most benifical?



Full up and down, no cheating.  They will be proper style.  That is my choice, anyway.  And, of course, once we get power doing that we can vary the style to exercise the arms in different ways!


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## Andy Moynihan

Right! That's just the motivation I needed then.

Count me in.

HOOah!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Cruentus said:


> O.K....
> 
> If there is anything I'll admit to being a "master" at, it's pushups.
> 
> Last time I had someone else test me, I did 105 in 2 minutes TO MILITARY STANDARD. It's those last 3 words that make the difference, because I can do at least 250 (not in 2 minutes, but w/o stopping) but not nessicarily to military standard. Doing it to military standard with someone else (one of my military friends in my case, so that is how I know) counting and timing makes things much more difficult (btw, Rich Parson's can probably vouch for my integrity on this one).
> 
> So... how'd I do it?
> 
> I am sure that there are different ways of achieving the same goal, but I'll let you in on how I did it.
> 
> Start w/ doing as many as you can do to perfect standard. Focus on speed, touching the ground with your chest, and locking your arms all the way. Many people think that they are doing puchups with good form, but I find that they are often wrong. So don't cheat yourself.
> 
> So, let's say that you do 30 with good form, and your spent. Force out 10 more with questionable form, then stop. If ya drop, ya drop, but try not to.
> 
> Rest for 2-5 minutes or so. Then do another set the same; 30 good form plus 10 questionable. You will fatigue much faster on the second set, so you can go into a rest position. A rest position is where you stay up, but you can sag in the middle, or arch your back (I prefer arch) to rest, and you can alternate weight on either hand, but try not to completely lift your palms from the ground.
> 
> Then rest again, and do one last set the same as above.
> 
> Do this every other day. But, each time you do it, look to increase your "perfect form" pushups my one rep. So, in the said example, you would do 31 instead of 30 perfect form per set.
> 
> You will reach a point when your body will adapt to the exercise, and you will feel like you can increase by more then one rep. So, in a few days, you might be doing 35 reps perfect, feeling like you could do 5 more. Go ahead and do them. Then, next time, increase by 1 rep again from your previous increase (so, 41 reps perfect).
> 
> Keep doing this, and if you are relatively fit you should reach your goal long before Christmas.
> 
> 2 things to remember; this is at least as much mental as it is physical. You will reach a point where you feel like you "can't" do 1 more rep then what you did last session. That's Bull. You can, it's just a mental barrier that you need to overcome. Last, don't neglect speed. Don't sacrifice form, but speed is what will enable you to reach your goal.
> 
> Cool. Have fun!
> 
> :cheers:


 
Like Paul I do Push Ups all the time.  Cruentus advice above is good and sound.  Really it is just a matter of getting down and doing them and attempting to add 5 to 10 more each week. (depending on your conditioning)  Also multiple sets are a definite plus and will make you progress easier.  Mental strength as always is important!!!


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## Kacey

newGuy12 said:


> Any martial arts student should be able to drop down and rip them out, so here we go.



I wish you all luck - a lumbar sprain and push-ups don't really go together, at least not until it heals some more, so I won't be joining you in this - although I do think it's a great goal - but I have to ask why you think any MA student should be able to make this particular goal?  I mean, I can see uses for it - but we've never done more than 50, and only rarely more than 25 in class, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from.


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## newGuy12

Kacey said:


> I wish you all luck - a lumbar sprain and push-ups don't really go together, at least not until it heals some more, so I won't be joining you in this - although I do think it's a great goal - but I have to ask why you think any MA student should be able to make this particular goal?  I mean, I can see uses for it - but we've never done more than 50, and only rarely more than 25 in class, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from.



I hope your back feels better soon, Kacey, and, to tell you the truth, I have no idea where I get the idea that 100 pushups is such a good number, it just seems like a good goal, even if it is a little big.

Nonetheless, here we go. We've plotted our course, and now we set sail!  With a crew like this, we cannot be beaten.  As we get to the high seas, there may be troubles.  We may see "pirates" of laziness, discouragement, distractions, and so on come up to greet us, but we won't be stopped.

We will fill the sails with air, bring the vessel around to flank the pirate ship, and then...

_*BAM!!! --> Right in the bow!!!*_

We will look to Legendary Judoka Masahiko Kimura, who even defeated the great Helio Gracie.  He would not be deterred.

Like Brian R. VanCise said, we will exercise the MIND as well as the body with this, pushing ourselves to progress!

I will keep logs here:
pushup_log
and
here:
weight_log





:xwing:


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## lkblair

If it makes anyone feel better, I'm at 0 good form ones.  I'm coming off a dislocated shoulder injury, and it has set me back much further than I ever would've imagined!  I've never been stellar at push-ups, but this is ridiculous!  Nevertheless, I will be joining you.  I need to get back up to speed before my 2nd level brown belt test in early spring.

Now, can I do a similar program for sit-ups?  I've maxed out at 40 decent sit-ups and really have to push to get my last 10.  I'd like to get to the point where the 50 is easy so I'm not worn out just from that.

Let the fun begin!

Lisa


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## newGuy12

lkblair said:


> Now, can I do a similar program for sit-ups?  I've maxed out at 40 decent sit-ups and really have to push to get my last 10.  I'd like to get to the point where the 50 is easy so I'm not worn out just from that.
> 
> Let the fun begin!
> 
> Lisa






Wh00-h00!  

Sure 'Nuf!  Count yourself IN!  Those with injuries can substitute other motions.  Besides, a well developed abdominal area will allow one to take a good punch there, won't it?  

We are going to get some progress going, and success breeds success, does it not?  We are going to nail this thing like my man Elvis Costello nails down music!

And remember, I am the weakest among you, so don't anyone feel badly about where they start.  Its the journey, and, we are on it!




Thankful for this virtual group,

Robert


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## Andy Moynihan

still learning said:


> Hello, Great article....Thank-you for sharing this 100 push-ups excerise program.
> 
> It seems to make alot of sense.
> 
> Just wondering if we should full up and down style? or short burst style?
> 
> I would think army style of full up and down will be the most benifical?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Every heard of the "Judo God" Masahiko Kimura? He was unbeatable in JUDO pre-world war 2, He use do 900 push-ups a day, everyday. If you can a chance please learn and read about him?
> 
> For myself.....may I join the band wagon too? ....we do push-ups in every class and we do add varietions of it too....
> 
> Aloha and thank-you for sharing!


 

Military standard--Full up and down, feet at a 45 degree angle( forward, not sideways as in touching heels), thumbs along the hand.

Well that's how I'm gonna do 'em anyway.


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## howard

Hi,

I have a couple of questions:

What exactly is the physical conditioning goal of being able to do 100 proper pushups in one go?

Is it to improve endurance?  To improve strength?  Or something else?


With respect to the arts, will being able to do 100 pushups improve any particular aspect of your MA performance?

Thanks in advance.


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## Andy Moynihan

howard said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a couple of questions:
> 
> What exactly is the physical conditioning goal of being able to do 100 proper pushups in one go?
> 
> Is it to improve endurance? To improve strength? Or something else?
> 
> 
> With respect to the arts, will being able to do 100 pushups improve any particular aspect of your MA performance?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 

In my case, it will help break me of my habit of not working out on a regular basis which has gone on far too long. If you aren't healthy, it won't matter *what* you train in, you won't use it to its best.

It will also bring back the muscular endurance to my arms, chest and torso which will aid my upper body techniques.


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## Andy Moynihan

Right. I suck. But that was to be expected. I've been out of this too long.

9/29/07--29 *correct* pushups( i could have gone one but form would have suffered).

If we're goin' byt the website chart thing it looks like I'm starting on that week 3 part.

(grumbles about how 10 years ago he used to do 2 sets of 50 back to back).


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## MantisStyle21

Alright count me in!! I'm fairly skinny armed and I'm tired of it! =]


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## exile

MantisStyle21 said:


> Alright count me in!! I'm fairly skinny armed and I'm tired of it! =]



For arms, MS21, I'm not sure you'll make major advances with pushups, though these will work your triceps to a small extent. But there are more effective, targetted biceps/triceps exercises you can work on.


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## still learning

Hello, The push-up  routines are great.....you may want add this too it!

Instead of resting for one minute?  ....use this time for squats....bend knees to level position, ( start like the push-up routines and add on).

Rotating between push-ups and squats....working the arms and legs.

This will improves your punches and kicks.

LETS ...not make these routines too hard....start slow and build up...

Aloha


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## PictonMA

The July 2006 edition of Black Belt magazine had Part 1 of feature on Masahiko Kimura - part of which outlined his work ethic and insane number of pushups (amongst other things) that he used to do.

This motivated me to see how quickly I could get to 100 consecutive pushups and how many consecutive days I could go of doing in excess of 100pushups.

Starting at 70pushup (elbows in against ribcage, full extension to chest briefly touching the ground) it took me a couple of weeks to get to 100 consecutive - I would do as many as I could initially (they had to be good / decent form) in a row and then allow as brief a rest period as possible before continuing to 100.

I managed to make it until just after Jan 2007 before starting to slackoff and not do this every day - I'm going to take it up again.

To answer the reason why do this - I will quote my teacher "Develop the musculature to suppor the movement."  You want to punch someone - pushups are one way to develop that power, provided they are quality pushups and not wide grip lazy pushups that don't require full extension etc.


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## newGuy12

Okay, here we are.  Tomorrow is the first day of October.  I have heard that it takes about 28 days to make something into a habit.  So, if we do this for every day of October, then it will become habitual.  So, let the habit form for us...

Now, for those of you who care about military standards, I have found that there is an "authorized rest position" that you can assume while you are doing your pushups.  This is demonstrated in the following video:






You will see that the man giving this instruction is a member of the armed forces, and very muscly looking, very tough looking, he should know what he is talking about.

Also, I will also be doing the Yoga poses in the morning time beginning tomorrow to "beam up".  You see, I have a bad habit -- I smoke cigarettes.  That's right, and I want to kick.  Now, it is too much for me, but, that's okay, I know a secret -- the "Power Tool".  That's the yoga poses.  I have a book by a guru.  He said, "Just do the poses, don't pay any attention to the abstinences (avoidances) or dietary concerns.  As you become aware of your body, with these poses, the bad habits will fall away."

So, I will be doing the yoga in the morning, mindfully, paying good attention to what I do, in the present moment, aware.

It is safe for me to do this, because I do not care for psychic powers or paranormal experiences, I only wish for a better life.  

Wish me luck as tomorrow morning comes. ---- OH, poor Robert does not wish to get out of bed to do the poses, oh, poor thing, oh...

Well, too bad.  That's just too bad, because if I wish to reap the benefits, then I must rise up 30 minutes earlier and to the poses, period. 

---------------------------------------------
Oh, and, the open hand and the fist -- the Warrior & the Scholar.   Hmm... also, it means "Hatha" -- the Sun & the Moon.   Hmmm!!!

Namaste, Fellow Travelers, and may Goodness be in your Path all day long today!!!



Robert


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## masherdong

Someone issued me a challenge to do 85 pushups in 2 minutes.  I think I am almost there.  I can do about 45-50 in a minute so, I am getting there!  Next, will be to do 120 in 2 minutes!!


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## Laurentkd

exile said:


> newGuy, this is how you can do it very simply. (NB: I said simply, _not_ easily... read on...)
> 
> Get thee to a gym or rec center weight room which has a power rack. Move a bench into the power rack and set the pins so that you are able to start with a barbell on its holding posts at a height maybe three inches, no more, below the length of your fully extended arm. This will put the barbell well within your strongest leverage range for a bench press. Any lower, and you will reduce the weight you can lift, due to leverage factors. Stay in your strongest range, and instead of doing a one foot rep in time T, do four three-inch reps in time T.
> 
> What you will find is that you can almost certainly add around 100 lbs right off the bat to your full-range bench press weight. Give yourself plenty of recovery time: do a set of 20 or so benches under the conditions I've described, and then wait a full week to come back. Next time, add another 5 to 10 lbs., and give yourself another week. And then add another 5 lbs or so.
> 
> Doing this kind of routine, I was able in 2 years to go from around 180lb benches to a 405lb very, very short range benches. And after about four months on that routine, I could knock out in excess of 100 push ups easily&#8212;even with my feet on a bench, well above my head height in pushup position. I still can, and I'm more than 60 years old.
> 
> Develop a very strong, short-range bench in a power rack and pushups become a piece of cake. I started out as a pathetic ectomorphic hard-gainer; if I could do it, _anyone_ can. Good luck!


 
Makes sense sir!
But then what do you think about doing pushups during the week? Will this allow enough recovery or should it be either pushups during the week or your bench press?

edit: by the way, I am in on you guys with this one. I have always felt pushup were my biggest weak point, I am excited to get on the train!


----------



## benj13bowlin

In basic training we had several people that couldn't pass the PT test (42+ pushups in 2 minutes to pass) and we made them drop every hour on the hour and do 5-10 pushups.  One guy couldn't even do 10 straight when we started him on it and in less than a month he was able to pass the PT test easily.

I managed just under 50 last night, so I will jump on the wagon with you guys.  Surely we can hit 100 in 12 weeks.


----------



## DAP

I can do about 30-40 push ups as of today.  I am in for training to be able to do a 100 by Christmas!


----------



## exile

Laurentkd said:


> Makes sense sir!
> But then what do you think about doing pushups during the week? Will this allow enough recovery or should it be either pushups during the week or your bench press?
> 
> edit: by the way, I am in on you guys with this one. I have always felt pushup were my biggest weak point, I am excited to get on the train!



Hi Lauren&#8212;well, the thing about pushups is, they don't really stress your resources all that much because, if you think about it, it's kind of like doing a bench press with your own body weight. So even going full range reps, for me a pushup would be nothing more than a 180lb bench press, which isn't going to be taxing enough to require much recovery time. The thing is, though, that if you do a large number of benches every day, you _will_ tire yourself out, but since you're restricted in the resistence you use to your own bodyweight, you aren't forcing your body to generate new muscle tissue; what you're doing is increasing muscle endurance, not explosive strength (which is where the real gain in muscle tissue comes from). Increasing muscle endurance has been shown repeatedly to _not_ entail muscle growth; instead, you in effect train your muscle biochemistry to handle lactic acid buildup more effectively (tolerate higher concentrations and eliminate lactic acid concentrations more quickly, so you don't feel a burn nearly as much from a give number of reps at a given weight). To increase muscle strength (and size, i.e., change your body composition to a greater % of muscle wrt total body weight), you need to activate the maximal number of motor units available and keep them occupied for enough time that the body registers an amount of discomfort sufficient to trigger new muscle growth (in much the same way that continued irritation of your skin will result in the formation of a callous). Since, these days, because of the time I lost recovering from a fairly bad weightlifting accident a couple of years ago, my maximum bench press weight is just under 300lbs, no amount of lifting 180lbs is going to put enough strain on my neuromotor pool to call for new muscle growth, even if I train pushups with my feet resting on a bench, hence higher than my head in starting position, which is more demanding than if they rest on the floor. 

One thing you _can_ do, if you have a small child available, is get them to sit on your back while you do pushups; this will definitely add some serious extra strength demands to your workout. I used to do this with my son back in the days when I couldn't get to a gym with a power rack; the problem is, when they get to a certain size, they weigh enough that having them sitting on your back is definitely not good for your spine. But think of it this way: if you can do 50 pushups in good form with a 30lb child sitting on your back, you'll have _no_ problems knocking out 100 in one go when there's not extra weight!

One other note: someone, I think it was on another thread somewhere, was advocating lifting as a substitute for aerobic activity to burn fat, on the grounds that muscle fibers are always vibrating slightly and therefore over the course of a day burn enough calories to eliminate significant body fat. I just wanted to mention, because it's been bothering me ever since I saw that post, that it's unfortunately not true: a lb. of lean muscle tissue burns around 10&#8211;13 calories per day. The chap here does the math for you:

_Consider a man, 175 pounds and 10% body fat. This man has 157.5 pounds of lean body mass, and he has a resting metabolic rate of 2178 calories a day. Now, suppose this man wishes to lose one pound of body fat. Let&#8217;s compare how he does it using the two methods described above.

With Method A, the man begins his muscle-building program and manages to gain one pound of fat-free bodyweight in one week, increasing his lean body mass by one pound of extra muscle. He continues this for a total of 10 weeks, and he gains a total of 10 pounds of muscle. His body now burns about 130 additional calories a day. At this point, if this man does not increase his initial daily maintenance calorie intake by 130 calories, he will lose 910 calories from body fat in a week. At this rate of body fat loss, it will take him about 27 days to lose a pound of body fat. So, the grand total for the amount of time it takes him to lose one pound of body fat is 10 weeks plus 27 days, which equals about 3.5 months! And, this assumes he didn&#8217;t gain any extra body fat while gaining muscle.

With Method B, this man could lose the same amount of body fat in a few days simply by reducing his daily maintenance calorie intake by 500 calories, and increasing his daily calorie expenditures by 500 calories._​
It's actually fairly optimistic to think one can add a lb of lean muscle in a week; if it were that easy, people would be able to add 52 lbs of pure muscle tissue in a year of conscientious exercise, whereas for most chemically unenhanced folk, a gain of 10 lbs of lean muscle mass in a year is a major victory. So the case is even worse than the writer assumes for using mucle growth as a substitute for aerobic excercise, especially high intensity aerobic exercise based on interval training. The ideal combination is a high intensity weight traning program combined with a high intensity, interval-based aerobic program: both are vastly more efficient ways to reach your muscle increase/fat loss goals than conventional programs. Their disadvantage is that high-intensity programs are not very pleasant,  and therefore they're pretty hard on morale, and that gets _worse_ the longer you do them, not easier. You have to focus on the results you want to achieve and keep telling yourself, it'll all be over in twenty minutes or whatever....


----------



## newGuy12

exile said:


> Their disadvantage is that high-intensity programs are not very pleasant



Unless, of course, it is the Martial Arts!


----------



## Carol

Well...I had a very sucky weekend due to some stupid RL stuff.   But, I did start talking about the 100 pushups idea with a colleague of mine.  We played off the idea and decided to do a friendly challenge amongst ourselves with the pushups and other areas of working out (we aren't competitive at all....oh no...LOL!)

I dusted off my unused blog and started to take a log of everything.  

All I can say is...that 100 pushups guy knows what he's talking about, that's for sure.


----------



## meth18au

exile said:


> Hi Laurenwell, the thing about pushups is, they don't really stress your resources all that much because, if you think about it, it's kind of like doing a bench press with your own body weight. So even going full range reps, for me a pushup would be nothing more than a 180lb bench press, which isn't going to be taxing enough to require much recovery time. The thing is, though, that if you do a large number of benches every day, you _will_ tire yourself out, but since you're restricted in the resistence you use to your own bodyweight, you aren't forcing your body to generate new muscle tissue; what you're doing is increasing muscle endurance, not explosive strength (which is where the real gain in muscle tissue comes from).



Just to veer slightly off topic- a question for exile.  So do push ups not totally obliterate the pectorals in the way a chest workout (with weights) would?  It took me a very long time to do push ups properly during class.  I would avoid putting too much strain on the pecs during them- and I did this all on purpose!!!  I was always worried about over training the pectorals, and preferred to focus on it's development through my chest workout about halfway through the week.  Then at the tail end of the week (after the chest workout) I would avoid putting any strain at all on the pecs during pushups, for fear of undoing my hard work with the weights.


I am not so bad now, but I always feel like I shouldn't be doing so many pushups in addition to to a chest workout each week!!!  But I just give them all I have now, and love them!!!


As for the 100 pushups by XMas.  Very possible!  Although I've never counted my max.  I know I can do 60 in a row.  I accept the challenge to add 40 more!!!


----------



## Laurentkd

exile said:


> Hi Laurenwell, the thing about pushups is, they don't really stress your resources all that much because, if you think about it, it's kind of like doing a bench press with your own body weight. So even going full range reps, for me a pushup would be nothing more than a 180lb bench press, which isn't going to be taxing enough to require much recovery time. The thing is, though, that if you do a large number of benches every day, you _will_ tire yourself out, but since you're restricted in the resistence you use to your own bodyweight, you aren't forcing your body to generate new muscle tissue; what you're doing is increasing muscle endurance, not explosive strength (which is where the real gain in muscle tissue comes from). Increasing muscle endurance has been shown repeatedly to _not_ entail muscle growth; instead, you in effect train your muscle biochemistry to handle lactic acid buildup more effectively (tolerate higher concentrations and eliminate lactic acid concentrations more quickly, so you don't feel a burn nearly as much from a give number of reps at a given weight). To increase muscle strength (and size, i.e., change your body composition to a ....


 
Ahhh riiiight! I tell you what, I have only been out of college for going on three years and already I know I am losing some of these concepts.  I am glad you are here sir to keep me refreshed!


----------



## exile

Laurentkd said:


> Ahhh riiiight! I tell you what, I have only been out of college for going on three years and already I know I am losing some of these concepts.  I am glad you are here sir to keep me refreshed!



And _I'm_ glad _you're_ here, Lauren, to raise these points and talk about them with me and everyone else, and keep the conversation flowing.


----------



## Tez3

newGuy12 said:


> Okay, here we are. Tomorrow is the first day of October. I have heard that it takes about 28 days to make something into a habit. So, if we do this for every day of October, then it will become habitual. So, let the habit form for us...
> 
> Now, for those of you who care about military standards, I have found that there is an "authorized rest position" that you can assume while you are doing your pushups. This is demonstrated in the following video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You will see that the man giving this instruction is a member of the armed forces, and very muscly looking, very tough looking,*he should know* *what* *he is talking about.*
> 
> Also, I will also be doing the Yoga poses in the morning time beginning tomorrow to "beam up". You see, I have a bad habit -- I smoke cigarettes. That's right, and I want to kick. Now, it is too much for me, but, that's okay, I know a secret -- the "Power Tool". That's the yoga poses. I have a book by a guru. He said, "Just do the poses, don't pay any attention to the abstinences (avoidances) or dietary concerns. As you become aware of your body, with these poses, the bad habits will fall away."
> 
> So, I will be doing the yoga in the morning, mindfully, paying good attention to what I do, in the present moment, aware.
> 
> It is safe for me to do this, because I do not care for psychic powers or paranormal experiences, I only wish for a better life.
> 
> Wish me luck as tomorrow morning comes. ---- OH, poor Robert does not wish to get out of bed to do the poses, oh, poor thing, oh...
> 
> Well, too bad. That's just too bad, because if I wish to reap the benefits, then I must rise up 30 minutes earlier and to the poses, period.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> Oh, and, the open hand and the fist -- the Warrior & the Scholar. Hmm... also, it means "Hatha" -- the Sun & the Moon. Hmmm!!!
> 
> Namaste, Fellow Travelers, and may Goodness be in your Path all day long today!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Robert


 

British Officer Fitness Reports

http://www.ahajokes.com/war053.html


----------



## thardey

newGuy12 said:


> Okay, here we are.  Tomorrow is the first day of October.  I have heard that it takes about 28 days to make something into a habit.  So, if we do this for every day of October, then it will become habitual.  So, let the habit form for us...
> 
> Now, for those of you who care about military standards, I have found that there is an "authorized rest position" that you can assume while you are doing your pushups.  This is demonstrated in the following video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You will see that the man giving this instruction is a member of the armed forces, and very muscly looking, very tough looking, he should know what he is talking about.



I've always done push-ups where you touch _something_ to the ground each time, either your nose, your chest, or your gut, whichever comes first. It looks like he's only going to slightly less than 90 degree bend in his arms.

Is one way better than others? I could easily do 100 push-ups like he did in the video, but I don't know about going all the way down, I haven't maxed out on that in a long, long time.


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## newGuy12

thardey said:


> I've always done push-ups where you touch _something_ to the ground each time, either your nose, your chest, or your gut, whichever comes first. It looks like he's only going to slightly less than 90 degree bend in his arms.
> 
> Is one way better than others? I could easily do 100 push-ups like he did in the video, but I don't know about going all the way down, I haven't maxed out on that in a long, long time.



Right!  I thought that that video was useful because the instructor in it demonstrated the "authorized rest position".  That is, you don't let your back sag.  You get into what in yoga is called the "downward dog" position.

In other words, if someone does, say, 'x' number of pushups, and then gets into the "authorized rest position", then (as I understand it, which may be wrong) the set continues.  That is, the person then goes from the authorized rest position.  The next pushup is 'x + 1', not '1'.

As far as going down low enough, a user posted earlier in this thread that if the chest touches the ground, that is certainly the greatest range of motion, isn't it?  I mean, that's as far as one can go.

Now, I _*have*_ seen on other sites where the US Army has a guideline that the upper arms have to "break the horizontal plane".  In other words, another person would look and see, as one doing the pushups goes further down, the upper arms would eventually go "horizontal".  Once you pass that point, you have "broken the horizontal plane".

Now, of course, for me personally, I _*respect*_ the form.  I wish to do the pushups "properly", BUT, I also understand that even if I do NOT realize the fullest range of motion, for me (I am very much out of shape and weak), I will be stronger even if I fail to do them to military standards.

So, for me, it is a target, an aspiration.  I wish to make note of the "authorized rest position", because... Even a very capable person, one who can do, say 50 pushups in a row ---- Bam!  Even a very strong person may HAVE to assume the rest position for a few seconds as they strive to do 100.

In my mind, only the most vigorous practitioner could get down and knock out 100 WITHOUT ASSUMING THE REST POSITION EVER. 

I mean, surely very few people can do that.  That would be total flat out gung-fu!!!  That's black belt level of fitness, or perhaps much greater.  So I will allow myself to rest from time to time IN A SET, under the condition that I only go to the authorized rest position.

I have the feeling that that position is specified for safety, as well (I have no knowledge of physical therapy, or anatomy or exercise, I just _assume_ this).  I do know this -- if the "downward dog" pose (which is what this is) is done properly, one gets a good stretch in the calves.  Also, because of the "inversion" qualities, you can get a benefit, as well -- blood goes to the head, and so forth.

Off to the drive way for the maximum number for today!!!


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## newGuy12

Okay, I know that something is happening in my body. I "feel" different in my upper chest.  The count is not increasing as rapidly as I had hoped (I just did 12 -- this was all I could do "in one lick", not stopping in the rest position).  That *is* an increase.  

Surely this will work.  If someone sensibly does pushups regularly, they will be able to do more.  This is common sense.  I must still just be in the "beginning phase" of it or something.  Surely it will pick up off of the ground and get going at some point.


----------



## Kacey

newGuy12 said:


> Okay, I know that something is happening in my body. I "feel" different in my upper chest.  The count is not increasing as rapidly as I had hoped (I just did 12 -- this was all I could do "in one lick", not stopping in the rest position).  That *is* an increase.
> 
> Surely this will work.  If someone sensibly does pushups regularly, they will be able to do more.  This is common sense.  I must still just be in the "beginning phase" of it or something.  Surely it will pick up off of the ground and get going at some point.



Slow and steady is the way to increase strength (and thus repetitions) - there is no quick and easy method to increasing strength; like losing weight, you have to start out slowly, then gain momentum until you reach a plateau... then the cycle will repeat.  You'll get there in time - but if you push too hard you'll just hurt yourself, and it'll take longer.


----------



## exile

meth18au said:


> Just to veer slightly off topic- a question for exile.  So do push ups not totally obliterate the pectorals in the way a chest workout (with weights) would?



No, they don't&#8212;unless you augment your own upper body weight by adding a `passenger' of respectable weight, or (something I used to do for fun), with a couple of wheels sitting on your back, kept in place by the friendly gym staff while you do your pushups.

Think of a pushup as a full-range upside-down bench press using your own (or augmented) upper body weight. Then yes, if you use additional weight that adds up to a significant increase over your own body weight (that extra 90lbs, for example), you will be getting a major increase in your workout. 

But look, there's a point here that I think needs to be addressed, and it may not be a popular one in the context of this thread involving a challenge predicated on a `proper military' form of the pushup. Think of it this way...

&#8226; Assume that the purpose of an upper body workout is to increase total upper body strength (not necessarily true, but a reasonable starting point, no?)

&#8226; Consider the well-documented fact of muscle physiology that the body will increase muscle mass only in response to serious discomfort and limitation of capability when _all_ available strength resources are being utilized (i.e., if you've got something left in reserve, then no matter how much effort you expend, you will not experience hypertrophy; see Sisco and Little's books for the literature on the exercise physiology experiments that document this point). 

&#8226; Consider also the fact that since a full range rep, such as a `proper military pushup' demands, takes you into leverage ranges which force you to max out on weights that are less than you can lift if you restrict your workout to your biomechanically optimal range (in a bench, say, the top 3 or 4 inches of your benching range), so that you are not lifting the maximum weight that your fully recruited neuromuscular resources would allow you to lift, you wind up gaining no additional lean muscle mass from such reps (again, Sisco and Little cite evidence to show that the body will simply `pull the plug' on a weight that cannot be lifted do to excessive `mechanical disadvantage', as the engineers would say, even if this weight is far within your abilities if you can access it in a range of motion which gives you optimal leverage).

&#8226; It follows that doing `proper' pushup reps (therefore full range reps) will not allow you to augment your normal pushup weight nearly as much as a restricted range pushup (i.e., you will not be able to add as much weight to your back, by balance wheels or having cooperative assistants sitting on  your back, as you would doing only the top 3 inches or so of the pushup rep), and therefore&#8212;this is the payoff&#8212;doing such pushups, while it may provide a usefule measure of training success, is not an efficiet training _method_.​
Now, if it's just a matter of putting unaugmented upper body weight through its paces, none of this is an issue; right now, I can do 100 full range pushups in less than 2 minutes, but doing that does me little actual good, because it doesn't increase my lean muscle mass, which is what I'm always primarily interested in. In other words, my own body weight isn't enough to challenge my physiology to add more muscle, period. You might say, yes, that's all very well for you, but what about people who can't shift their own body weight over a full rep range that many times in that time frame? And my response would be, there's a much faster way to do it. Do limited range reps in a power rack with 50&#8211;100 more than your body weight for six weeks, and it's very likely that at the end of that time, you'll be able to do 100 full-range reps at your own body weight with relative ease. _Definitely_ by Christmas. 

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, really; I think setting this kind of goal for onesself is a great thing, in fact, is the _only_ way forward&#8212;the secret of life, as we get older, is, unfortunately, _march or die_. We have to keep annexing new ground, because our biology is trying to get us to shut down after our mid-thirties, and the only way we can fight that is very aggressively, by taking on projects such as this. I just think that the value of the 100-pushup test is as a _benchmark_, rather than as a training regime. For the latter, there are vastly more effective approaches, though, as I say, they take you into the... um, _discomfort_ zone... more than you probably want to be there. But the good side is, over time, you find your tolerance for that kind of discomfort increases somewhat, enough to keep you in the game.




meth18au said:


> It took me a very long time to do push ups properly during class.  I would avoid putting too much strain on the pecs during them- and I did this all on purpose!!!  I was always worried about over training the pectorals, and preferred to focus on it's development through my chest workout about halfway through the week.  Then at the tail end of the week (after the chest workout) I would avoid putting any strain at all on the pecs during pushups, for fear of undoing my hard work with the weights.



You can't really overtrain the pecs with pushups. Overtraining is a very specific thing; and on the whole, overtraining is overworked as a hazard. The deal on overtraining is, it consists of taxing your resources to the point where you are running a constant deficit, without ever giving your system a chance to recover physiologically. Very few people do this, or are _capable_ of sustaining the discomfort level necessary to do this. I'm a bit of a fanatic about high-intensity training, yet I can safely say that in the eleven or so years I've been running intervals and doing various H.I.T. weightlifting routines, I've never once been in an overtraining mode. The thing is, you can't overtrain for muscle growth by doing things that implicate only endurance&#8212;and if you train weights properly, your pushups will be an endurance exercise for your pecs, not a strength exercise. So don't worry about overtraining. If you do pushups twice a week for extended numbers, you should be fine.



meth18au said:


> *I am not so bad now, but I always feel like I shouldn't be doing so many pushups in addition to to a chest workout each week!!!  But I just give them all I have now, and love them!!!*


*

Well, that's probably true, but the point is, if you're doing a heavy free weight routine for pecs, you simply deplete your available strength resources by doing pushups, resources you need for your proper chest workout. Definitely you can tire yourself out doing pushups, but really your pectoral muscle growth will come from your free weight barbell bench press exercise at greater than your body weight. So it makes sense to hold off on the pushups while you're doing the free weights, simply so you don't tire yourself out. The point is, in line with what I was saying before, overtraining would involve your doing your high intensity routine sooner than would allow full recovery; this will put you in a kind of `negative numbers' in training which is a lot nastier than simply being overfatigued. Full recovery is essential before muscle group&#8212;`compensation' in weight-training jargon&#8212;takes place. 

But there's no harm in every so often trying to knock out a set of 100 or so pushups just to see how you're getting on. If you can do limited range benches at 50 lbs or more above your body weight, you're strong enough that a few pushups isn't going to seriously compromise your strength utilization.




meth18au said:



			As for the 100 pushups by XMas.  Very possible!  Although I've never counted my max.  I know I can do 60 in a row.  I accept the challenge to add 40 more!!!
		
Click to expand...


I think 100 continuous pushups is a good check of your progress&#8212;a benchmark, as I say. But for long term, serious gains, don't overlook the advantages that that power rack in the corner of your gym can give you (or the dipping stand, where you can do short-range, heavily weighted dips safely...)*


----------



## meth18au

First of all, thankyou for the time you took to give such a detailed response.  It is a pleasure, as always, to read your information- especially in regards to weight training!  An area I too am extremely fond of!!! 






exile said:


> You can't really overtrain the pecs with pushups.



That's good to know.  I do as many a 200-500 per day, and I do this 4-5 times per week.  On top of my 1x Chest workout with weights every week.  It is something that I have always stressed about- hindering the gains I would make from my weight routine through all the pushups I have to do in class!!!





exile said:


> the point is, if you're doing a heavy free weight routine for pecs, you simply deplete your available strength resources by doing pushups, resources you need for your proper chest workout. Definitely you can tire yourself out doing pushups, but really your pectoral muscle growth will come from your free weight barbell bench press exercise at greater than your body weight. So it makes sense to hold off on the pushups while you're doing the free weights, simply so you don't tire yourself out.



I do understand it can tax me for my weight session.  Sometimes my chest routine is on Wednesday.  And I would have done between 200-500 pushups in class on both Monday and Tuesday.  I just can't push out my 100kg bench presses after such intensive pushup routines.  However on a 'fresher' day I can easily push out 100kg for 3 sets of 6 reps with a spotter!!!





exile said:


> I think 100 continuous pushups is a good check of your progressa benchmark, as I say. But for long term, serious gains, don't overlook the advantages that that power rack in the corner of your gym can give you (or the dipping stand, where you can do short-range, heavily weighted dips safely...)



I definitely wouldn't use pushups to gain muscle.  I just feel like being in on the challenge of doing 100 straight!!!!  I trust my bench and dumbbells too much!!!   I will have to give the short range reps a go on bench press and dips though.  I can't say I've ever worked with partial ranges on chest routines.  What range should I be working in to get maximum gains from this sort of training?


----------



## exile

I just wanted to get this reply out to this particular part of your post, meth18au, before work or some other interruption comes along... will post more in response to your previous note later on.



meth18au said:


> I definitely wouldn't use pushups to gain muscle.  I just feel like being in on the challenge of doing 100 straight!!!!



Sure, and that's exactly rightit really is a measure of your increase in strength: the more effective your free weight workouts, the better your pushup numbers will be.



meth18au said:


> I trust my bench and dumbbells too much!!!   I will have to give the short range reps a go on bench press and dips though.  I can't say I've ever worked with partial ranges on chest routines.  What range should I be working in to get maximum gains from this sort of training?



Well, this is how I would approach it. Get in a power rack, set the protection bars at a height about three inches below the very top of your range, set the pins holding the barbell the lowest height above the bars you can (having the pins sitting right _on_ the bars is sometimes best; it depends on the design of the power rack), put two 45lb wheels on each side, and lift the resulting 135lbs in that strongest-range distance. Add another 25lbs to each side and try running through maybe 20 reps, seeing how it feels. If you don't find that too taxing, replace the 25lb plates with 30lb plates and see how it goes, and so on. Eventually, you'll get to a weight which, even in your strongest range, you can only do about 20 of. 

Now take that weight and remove 10lbs from each side. The result will be a bit less weight, but you'll be able to shift a good deal more total weight in a given time period than if you'd stuck with the maximum weight you were capable of. This is where the Sisco/Little version of high intensity training differs from Mike Mentzer's approach; Mentzer would have told you to go with the absolute maximum and to try for one rep more than you were ready to admit failure at. He had this idea that it was that one, last magical rep which issued the call, so to speak, that finally triggered new muscle synthesis in the body. Sisco and Little disagreed that that was a valid model (and Mentzer, though he used all kinds of analogies and metaphors to illustrate his side of the story, never really appealed to any empirical data to support his `tipping point' hypothesis about muscle growth; for someone who was so abrasively insistent that everyone else in the bodybuilding world was fundamentally irrational and unscientific in their thinking, he fell pretty readily into to the `too good to be false' trap of falling in love with his own preconceptions). They argued that the right way to induce hypertrophy was to present the body's sensors with evidence of a significant increase in _average_ stress and discomfort, which over time (just as a callous forms in respense to an increase in average irritation at a particular point on the skin) will yield an average increase in the body's investment of resources in muscle tissue. Over several training sessions where you basically use up your reserves and try to push beyond them, the message gets through and your body does what it would really rather not do: it synthesizes new muscle tissue. It would much rather store the same nutrients as fat: muscle synthesis is a tiring costly business in terms of the body's biochemical economy, and our evolutionary history makes us much prefer storing nutrients as energy for a rainy day, of which there used to be _plenty_ in the pre-agricultural era. But if you can deplete your explosive strength resources effectively over a forty minute period, say, every couple of weeks to start with, the lesser of two evils turns out to be to provide you with enough new muscle to minimize the physical stress of lifting iron. 

It's for similar reasons that interval training is such an effective technique for improving cardiovascular fitness and depleting fat stores. The two high intensity regimes go well together, as long as you allow sufficient recovery time, and that's the key. Trying to do more than one high-intensity iron workout per week, or more than two aerobic interval workouts a week, definitely _will_ overtrain you, and that's not fun in the least;  it does all sorts of nasty things like compromise your immune response. 

So that's why, on this approach anyway, you don't want to go to absolutely maximum weightbecause you can actually shift more weight in the same unit of time using slightly less than your max, and that's what the body registers. When you find yourself able to increase your total reps at that weight in the same time, add another 5 or 10 lbs to the bar and try to _equal_ your numbers from the last workout you did in the same time frame. And so on. If you give yourself the necessary recovery time, you'll find that you can pretty reliably add 5lbs every workout and get at least as good numbers in as you did the time before. 

Then, when you decide to knock out a few pushups to see how you're progressing, you will be able to _seriously_ impress yourself (plus any friends who might be watching, of course :wink1!


----------



## jks9199

One note... with regard to pushups versus strength.

I agree with Exile on this: Body weight exercises will never increase your *strength* beyond a certain point limited by your body weight.  I don't care if you can do a set of 1200 pushups... your muscles won't be able to lift more than some magic percentage over your body weight.  For the sake of argument... let's just say 30%, with no data to back that random selection up.  But -- your endurance in moving that weight is going to be vastly superior to a bench press champion who does 230% of his bodyweight.

I used to train occasionally with a guy who did something like 1000 pushups a day.  He was wiry, pretty strong, and damn near inexhaustible.  I'm not wiry... but in raw ability to move crap, I had him beat.  But he could wear me out easily...

The advantage of reasonably large sets (30 to 50 maybe) of pushups for training is building endurance, not strength.  For me, the best approach is a compromise.  I'm currently working a weight circuit that includes dumbbell bench press; I'm only lifting 70 lb dumbbells... but I'm doing sets to exhaustion (currently, 17 for the first cycle, and around 10 for the second).  I do pushups on off days, as the mood strikes.  It's working for my goals.  I don't want to be bigger, and I'm respectably strong (last I checked, I could still bench my bodyweight at least once).

Look at your goals, and tailor your training to fit them.


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## Andy Moynihan

Exactly. A powerlifter is not gonna make the Boston Marathon in anywhere near the same time a dedicated, specifically-trained runner is. And that runner would crumble to dust if he/she were to try to crawl under that half a ton of iron that the powerlifter plays with.

Exile has given several incredibly intelligent explanations concerning weight training( in my younger days when I cared about getting bigger i tried the very same Power Factor workout he's referring to--I got big, and relative to my height aqnd frame, I'm STILL big).

My goals have changed to the point I'm more interested now in "leaning up" what mass I DO have, and losing the excess weight, and building endurance rather than pure raw strength( I figure, from a defensive standpoint, I can do wahtever the hell I need to to someone if I can outlast them to begin with). 

I'm also not 19 anymore, and since I been out of a routine so long I figure sticking to bodyweight will reduce risk of injury or REinjury of old mistakes( when I was young and stupid, I did as many young and stupid boys/men do, and got sucked into the trap of wanting to go heavier too soon just for the sake of lifting heavier weights, and my shoulders still click, though there's been no pain in 10 years).I'm just glad I stopped on that path before I did real, irreversible damage.

At least with calisthenics the movements can be made a little more directly related to martial art movement( your creativity's the only limit) And from a purely personal point of view I find that direct calisthenic movement keeps me more involved in the moment( ie, I'm not thinking about what I'm gonna do when I get home like I sometimes did with weights).

I'm not against weight training, but don't think I'm quite in the right place yet to bring it back, and not sure it should be the top rung in the ladder for my fitness goals as they are right now, is all.


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## exile

jks and Andy, really good posts!!!

(jks, IOU rep; you're still on my stack, so...) I think it's very important to remember that in the end, no two people's weight-training programs are going to look the same, nor should they; and at different times in one's life, one's program is going to differ from others.  When we're younger, a lot of us (us guys, anyway!) just want to look big and powerful. When we get a bit older, though, our focus often shifts to _functional_ strength; if we're adults, we recognize that we don't need to look like Ahhhhnold in his prime to be healthy, fit specimens of humanity, but we _do_ need specific kinds of strength and fitness, and we train for that. 

Here's an example: legs. Powerful quads have been a bodybuilder's fantasy from early days, and certain bodybuilders, like Tom Platz and the late Paul de Mayo had massive quads thicker than many grown men's midsections. But alas, those guys would have been at a complete loss if you asked them to do a slow midlevel rear-leg side kick in perfect form _and freeze it at maximum extension for ten seconds_. The reason is that the muscles involved in that particular action aren't the quads; they're the hip flexors&#8212;and I know of no standard bodybuilding exercise aimed at the hip flexors, which makes sense, after all, because the judges in bodybuilding contests can't _see_ these (relatively small) muscles, no matter how much you've worked on them. So while standard leg exercises are good in general (because squats and leg presses contribute to overall strength), if you want to develop strength for fast, powerful kicks as offensive weapons, the best exercise you can do is not a weightlifter's or bodybuilder's exercise but a specifically martial artist's exercise: leg raises (stick one leg out as close to parallel to the ground as possible and freeze it there, then the other one), slow, powerful kicks held in the extended position at at least hip height, and one or two others ... then the same again but with extra weighting maybe by using 10 or 20 lb ankle weights. I'd bet not one lifter in ten thousand exercises like that ... but for the likes of us, that kind of leg workout will yield results much more satisfying than the standard lifter's leg half-ton leg press and 495 lb squat. I'm not knocking the latter, btw, don't get me wrong&#8212;these kinds of exercises will greatly enhance your overall body strength; but as a MAist you need weight work that is specifically geared to the demands of your particular craft. 

Another example: interval training. It's extra-efficient for cardio, but there's a more specific reason why MAists need to spend a bit of time doing this kind of exercise: very few MA training sessions involve continuous expenditure of energy, right? From your own experience, isn't is pretty obvious that what happens is, you spend a certain amount of time in listening, or in slow-mo rehersal of certain moves, or in low intensity demonstration of particular techs, alternating with very demanding, even exhausting sparring/repetitive high kicking, hard punching/bag work/etc.?? MA training sessions alternate low and very high intensity training, and that's exactly, precisely what interval training trains: an aerobic capacity which has the `legs' to switch gears from high to low back to high intensity. 

So for sheer upper body strength, there are certain exercises. And for specifically MA-related requirements, there are certain exercises. And the two aren't mutually exclusive in the least, but you have to figure out for yourself&#8212;based on your body type, MA requirements (as a TKDist, I'm inclined to train high, accurate kicks even though I wouldn't appeal to these in a self-defense situation), age, and medical history&#8212;just what mix of the two will give you the best results....


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## meth18au

exile said:


> Then, when you decide to knock out a few pushups to see how you're progressing, you will be able to _seriously_ impress yourself (plus any friends who might be watching, of course :wink1!





Thankyou for another well thought out, and thought provoking post Exile!!!




I will have to apply these principles to my weight training from now on.  I'm going to be trying to fit in 2x weight sessions a week (especially leading up to the hot West Australian summer!!!).  I think I'm going to give this sort of training a go.  Maybe one session a week, a compound full body workout.  And my second one will be based around this sort of high intensity, limited range training.  Would you happen to be able to suggest a certain program based around this training to begin with?  I try spend around 45 mins lifting when I go to do a weight session.





			
				Andy Moynihan said:
			
		

> ...when I was young and stupid, I did as many young and stupid boys/men do, and got sucked into the trap of wanting to go heavier too soon just for the sake of lifting heavier weights, and my shoulders still click, though there's been no pain in 10 years).I'm just glad I stopped on that path before I did real, irreversible damage.




Don't we all, as young males go down this path!!!  I used to do really heavy deadlifts.  Got my max up to 120kg for 10 reps.  One day, twinge in my back- out of training for a week and a half.  Lucky to have had no real bad damage, but it scared the **** out of me!!!  Now I stick to 60kg-80kg range.  And I wouldn't say my results have overly suffered because of it!!!


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## newGuy12

Yes, thank you to exile, you are giving us the good information!

Okay, I made a landmark today.  I am doing these exercises on Monday and Thursday because that is when the Teacher has classes.  We do 5 sets of 20 pushups in class.  Now, because I could never do 20 in a set, I was always just simply maxing out, right?  So, that is equivalent (at least) to the workout in the first post.  No problem.

Now, tonight, I am glad to say that I got 20.  No joking,  BAM, nailed them.
I could have done more, but I was just cool and quit, because, the exercise we did is specified to be 20 pushups, and I know how to follow directions.

I also did 20 on the second set.  I'm sure that the form was close enough, if not perfect.  It was close enough for me.  So, I am beginning to see improvement, which is good, because I was starting to be doubtful.

Now, I do the weight training on Saturday.  So, I'll go in there, and the bench press is just ONE set of ~ 20, in the short range!!!  Then, the same for pullups (I spent the money to go to the gym, I may as well do the pullups as well).

And, then the "knee therapy" ------> knee extensions and knee curls (or whatever they are called).  But these of course are done very carefully, very mindfully.  These are not for strength or to show off with.



So, that's a fact!!!  Got to be careful not to get a big head, though.  In the martial arts, somebody might just have to come around and show you what's up if you get too cocky, and I don't need that!!!!!!!!!





Regards,

Robert Witten


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## rutherford

jks9199 said:


> I agree with Exile on this: Body weight exercises will never increase your *strength* beyond a certain point limited by your body weight.



Have you ever met an Olympic Gymnast?

There are few stronger human beings.

Thing is, they don't do push-ups all day long.  Once they master a skill, they sophisticate to more complex and challenging exercises.


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## exile

rutherford said:


> Have you ever met an Olympic Gymnast?
> 
> There are few stronger human beings.
> 
> Thing is, they don't do push-ups all day long.  Once they master a skill, they sophisticate to more complex and challenging exercises.



Right, but here's where we need some actual data. I've read descriptions of gymnast's training routines and according to those accounts, a lot of them _do_ pump iron in addition to their specialized train for events such as rings. Time under tension will definitely yield results up to a point. But what you would need to show about these gymnasts is that a continued use of strictly free bodyweight exercises led to actual new muscle growth in the absence of further overload. 

The problem with muscularity is that it's hard to identify from casual inspection just what's going on. Two athletes can have equal muscle mass in relation to height&#8212;but one of them can look far stronger than the other because that muscle mass is a much greater percentage of total body weight. Fat obscures muscle, but so does retained water, which is why pro bodybuilders use hair-raisingly dangerous diuretics like thiazide and other stuff whose primary applications are usually _veterinary_  So even if you see an apparent increase in muscle size in the same athlete over a given period of time, you aren't necessarily seeing an increase in muscle mass, as vs. just muscularity (% of total body weight).

What I'd like to see are some carefully controlled studies showing that gymnasts continue to add muscle tissue throughout their careers by doing nothing more than training for their particular specializations using only their own body weight for resistance. Without that kind of controlled experiment, it's not really possible to conclude much from the physiques of high-level gymnasts, beyond the fact that they do gain muscle mass _up to a certain point_ through their training...


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## rutherford

exile said:


> The problem with muscularity is that it's hard to identify from casual inspection just what's going on. Two athletes can have equal muscle mass in relation to heightbut one of them can look far stronger than the other because that muscle mass is a much greater percentage of total body weight. Fat obscures muscle, but so does retained water, which is why pro bodybuilders use hair-raisingly dangerous diuretics like thiazide and other stuff whose primary applications are usually _veterinary_  So even if you see an apparent increase in muscle size in the same athlete over a given period of time, you aren't necessarily seeing an increase in muscle mass, as vs. just muscularity (% of total body weight).
> 
> What I'd like to see are some carefully controlled studies showing that gymnasts continue to add muscle tissue throughout their careers by doing nothing more than training for their particular specializations using only their own body weight for resistance. Without that kind of controlled experiment, it's not really possible to conclude much from the physiques of high-level gymnasts, beyond the fact that they do gain muscle mass _up to a certain point_ through their training...



Irrelevant.  Placing physique first in your value hierarchy is exactly what leads to the abuse of health and functional attributes that you correctly point out are rampant in the sport of bodybuilding.  Beyond certain levels, muscle mass has little actual relation to strength and hypertrophic gains can inhibit performance. 

In all cases, it's important to clearly state the goal of your training and move towards that goal in the manner that is most efficient.  

A certain _kind of strength_ is required for gymnastics, and it's strength that can not be developed through lifting weights.  You can bench press all you want, but you'll _never_ develop a straddle planche push-up unless you specifically craft a fitness program with that goal in mind.  (This is where I completely agree with jks9199).

There is no one tool that is right for every goal.  The body can not differentiate between sources of resistance.  It doesn't say, "Oh, this is a free weight on an olympic bar, I'll make gains for this but show me a sandbag and you'll get nothing."  Instead, tools are chosen for the applicability to the development of desired attributes that lead to the accomplishment of specific goals.


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## jks9199

rutherford said:


> Have you ever met an Olympic Gymnast?
> 
> There are few stronger human beings.
> 
> Thing is, they don't do push-ups all day long.  Once they master a skill, they sophisticate to more complex and challenging exercises.


I'm passing familiar with gymnastics training; I started to late to really accomplish anything, but I did do gymnastics for a couple of years (specializing in vault and parallel bars, for those who are curious).

Gymnasts are indeed strong -- and very adept at recruiting maximum muscle contribution to an effort.  But I never said bodyweight exercises won't make you strong -- I simply said that there is a limit to the strength you can develop solely with body weight exercises.  I even said I don't have any hard data on where that limit may be...


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## jks9199

rutherford said:


> Irrelevant.  Placing physique first in your value hierarchy is exactly what leads to the abuse of health and functional attributes that you correctly point out are rampant in the sport of bodybuilding.  Beyond certain levels, muscle mass has little actual relation to strength and hypertrophic gains can inhibit performance.
> 
> In all cases, it's important to clearly state the goal of your training and move towards that goal in the manner that is most efficient.
> 
> A certain _kind of strength_ is required for gymnastics, and it's strength that can not be developed through lifting weights.  You can bench press all you want, but you'll _never_ develop a straddle planche push-up unless you specifically craft a fitness program with that goal in mind.  (This is where I completely agree with jks9199).
> 
> There is no one tool that is right for every goal.  The body can not differentiate between sources of resistance.  It doesn't say, "Oh, this is a free weight on an olympic bar, I'll make gains for this but show me a sandbag and you'll get nothing."  Instead, tools are chosen for the applicability to the development of desired attributes that lead to the accomplishment of specific goals.


This discussion hasn't really addressed specifity, mostly because it's been off topic on a thread about pushups.  But, it's pretty much a given that you must train with specificity to achieve specific results; you want to punch harder, you can do weights that build the muscles involved, you can stretch to improve flexibility -- but you MUST punch to punch harder.  You want to run faster -- again, you can do all the supporting exercise you want, but you MUST run to run faster.


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## newGuy12

I think that its worth remembering that for a true beginner, who does not do ANY exercise, whatever they choose to do to start has to be a step in the right direction, at least, even if its not optimal.

Now, regarding bodyweight exercises, that is convenient.  You do not have to go to a gym, you can do them right now, if you have a few minutes, do a set of something, with a minimum (or no) equipment.  Because of this, I don't think that bodyweight exercises should be pushed aside.  You see, comparing a couch potatoe (one who does NO exercise) to anyone who does any kind of exercise shows a BIG difference.

I have found a website that talks only about these so called bodyweight exercises:

http://www.bodyweightculture.com/

Now, you have to register to really get access to the material, but that is what your secondary "junk" email address is for anyway, right?

You can also find videos that show some of these people doing their exercises such as this one:

http://www.gofish.com/player.gfp?gfid=30-1062886

Now, for a world class athlete, or someone who is adept at training of some kind, these may seem simple and childish, BUT, for the new people, they are very challenging.

You see, I am saying, the best way to train is the best way, like we have been discussing, BUT, if one cannot avail themselves of the best exercises (perhaps they cannot afford the money to join a gymnasium right now?), then --> the best way to exercise then is whatever one can and will do!!!


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## newGuy12

Then again, let's not forget about the extra gains that can be made when a personal trainer is available to "help you out"!!!


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## exile

rutherford said:


> Irrelevant.  Placing physique first in your value hierarchy is exactly what leads to the abuse of health and functional attributes that you correctly point out are rampant in the sport of bodybuilding.



I'm not placing physique first in my value hierarchy. I'm simply trying to address your invocation of Olympic gymnasts&#8212;who are indeed very strong and very muscular&#8212;in connection with the previous discussion of whether continuous muscle growth, with attendant strength gains, is possible past a certain point using bodyweight resistance alone.



rutherford said:


> Beyond certain levels, muscle mass has little actual relation to strength and hypertrophic gains can inhibit performance.



I have yet to see a single piece of peer-reviewed documentation for the claim that muscle growth as a result of strictly drug-free resistance training  can inhibit performance. What I have seen are numerous, well-designed studies confirming the increased speed of movement generated by larger muscles, since part of normal hypertrophy is progressively great synchronization of muscle activation by the neuromotor groups involved. More synchonization translates to faster response times. If you're referring to studies involving steroid-induced hypertrophy, that's completely different; in those cases, muscle growth forced beyond the natural limits imposed by skeletal structure, connective tissue cannot keep pace with the excessive development of muscle size through abuse of anabolic substances, and serious injuries will inevitably result (Dorian Yates' forced retirement as a result of repeated muscle/tendon tears off his arm bones are a glaring example).



rutherford said:


> In all cases, it's important to clearly state the goal of your training and move towards that goal in the manner that is most efficient.
> 
> A certain _kind of strength_ is required for gymnastics, and it's strength that can not be developed through lifting weights.  You can bench press all you want, but you'll _never_ develop a straddle planche push-up unless you specifically craft a fitness program with that goal in mind.  (This is where I completely agree with jks9199).



If you look back through this thread, you'll see that I made exactly this point several posts ago here in connnection with the role of hip flexors and their inaccessiblity to growth by standard weight-lifting exercises. Somehow the topic seems to have shifted from MAs to Olympic gymnasts, but clearly it's the same point, and holds for alpine skiing, fencing, tennis and any other athletic specialization.

There is no one tool that is right for every goal.  The body can not differentiate between sources of resistance.  It doesn't say, "Oh, this is a free weight on an olympic bar, I'll make gains for this but show me a sandbag and you'll get nothing."  Instead, tools are chosen for the applicability to the development of desired attributes that lead to the accomplishment of specific goals.[/QUOTE]

Once again, this repeats an earlier point that no one is arguing about. But the premise of the OP is that increases in `generalized' upper body strength have to be advantageous, whatever training-specific routines you also do to enhance particular muscle groups needed for the activities in question, as in the case of the workout possibilities for hip flexors I mentioned in my earlier post. I see no incompatibility between the two kinds of training goals. Interestingly enough, Bruce Lee, who was hardly unaware of the need for targetting training, also trained weights extensively and advocated their use on the grounds that, with equal skill levels, the stronger of two fighters has a probably decisive advantage. He did not say that weight training for strength is a _substitute_ for development of specialized skills. The two are complementary. And I also noted earlier that MAists need to work out for themselves what the optimal mix of generalized and specific strength training is. But the point at issue was simply whether you can increase generalized muscle growth beyond a certain point based strictly on bodyweight resistance. If someone doesn't wish to go beyond that point, fine; I see no problem with that.


----------



## rutherford

jks9199 said:


> Gymnasts are indeed strong -- and very adept at recruiting maximum muscle contribution to an effort.  But I never said bodyweight exercises won't make you strong -- I simply said that there is a limit to the strength you can develop solely with body weight exercises.  I even said I don't have any hard data on where that limit may be...





exile said:


> But the point at issue was simply whether you can increase generalized muscle growth beyond a certain point based strictly on bodyweight resistance. If someone doesn't wish to go beyond that point, fine; I see no problem with that.



You're both addressing the tangents, and ignoring the denial of your primary premise.  That bodyweight resistance will at some unknown point cease to be effective is absurd.

It is absurd in the first place, because the body cannot know the difference.  Resistance is resistance.  The body adapts to stress when given adequate recovery and nutrition.  Any stress.

It is also absurd, because you've failed to define "strong for what".  When I bring up Gymnastics, it's only to give a specific example of skill-based strength that cannot be achieved through any weight training.  

The belief that linear movements (weighted or unweighted) which attempt to isolate muscle groups could somehow lead to increased general physical preparation is outdated, based on a false model of human movement, and simply wrong.


----------



## exile

rutherford said:


> You're both addressing the tangents, and ignoring the denial of your primary premise.  That bodyweight resistance will at some unknown point cease to be effective is absurd.
> 
> It is absurd in the first place, because the body cannot know the difference.  Resistance is resistance.  The body adapts to stress when given adequate recovery and nutrition.  Any stress.



The body adapts to stress,yes. But if you do not increase the stress on the body, there will be no further adaptation.

If you've never lifted weights before, and you try curling a 20lb dumbbell, you will get hypertrophy of the biceps sufficient to enable you to curl that 20 lb dumbbell. And then, if you never increase the weight beyond that 20lbs, you will add no further muscle growth because the body has already adapted as much as it needs to. These results were established in the first half of the 20th century in the work of Mopurgo, Siebert & Pietow, and Roux-Lange, and have been corroborated repeatedly (see Sisco and Little's _Power Factor Training_ for the full references, discussion of the experimental protocols,  and further experimental corroboration).  When the body has successfully adapted to a given stress, further adaptation to a higher level is only triggered by overload, i.e., increase in stress to a higher level. If you've developed 16" biceps by starting with a15" bicep and doing 20lb concentration curls, do you really think you are going to be able to reach 19" biceps by patiently doing curls with a 20lb weight for the next ten years? In the pre-steroid era, natural bodybuilders had already discovered that low intensity, high rep training led to unbreakable plateaus. That is typically where plateaus come from: not increasing the weight (or not allowing sufficient recovery from a previous workout, which in turn makes it impossible to lift added weight).



rutherford said:


> It is also absurd, because you've failed to define "strong for what".  When I bring up Gymnastics, it's only to give a specific example of skill-based strength that cannot be achieved through any weight training.



No, Rutherford, you've got the thread topic wrong, I think. The thread topic is pushups&#8212;_reread the OP_&#8212;which yield increase general upper body strength. I introduced skill-based strength myself, as distinct from general upper body strength, as an aside, just a caution, in case someone new to weight training got the misimpression that bodybuilding exercises might yield skill-specific strength. You didn't introduce that caveat; _I_ did, in the post I gave you a link to in my previous post. And now you're lecturing me about the need to distinguish skill-based from generalized explosive muscle strength?




rutherford said:


> The belief that *linear movements (weighted or unweighted) which attempt to isolate muscle groups* could somehow lead to increased general physical preparation is outdated, based on a false model of human movement, and simply wrong.



Rutherford, if you're going to get into a discussion of resistance training, then you better know the difference between isolation and  compound exercises. And if you do know the difference, you know that bench presses (of which pushups are an inverted version), squats, and shoulder presses, the exercises I mentioned in my original posts, are all compound exercises that work, in the case of benches, the following: delts, lats, triceps and especially pectorals. So why are you trying to attribute to me, or jks, or anyone else a position about _isolating_ exercises that no one has taken? And would you mind pointing out to us who with any authority in this area has _ever_ claimed that isolating exercises can lead to `increased general physical preparation'. What is the purpose of these straw men?

I would suggest that you go back over the thread and read what people have actually said, and when, and in what context. You'll notice that (i) the thread topic is a compound exercise which is aimed at increasing general upper body strength;  (ii) no one is claiming that resistance training with standard lifts targets specific MA skills; (iii) on the contrary, I stressed that one needs to do targeted strength routines specifically for MAs, well before you entered the thread; and that (iv) the only person who is throwing around terms like `irrelvant', `absurd' and the like to dismiss other people's proposals, suggestions and summaries of well-documented research in exercise physiology is _you_. And if your intent in doing that is to convince readers that the positions which you've misattributed to others are incorrect, I don't think you're going to get very far.


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## rutherford

Increased weight is only one way to increase stress.

A more complete list would include:

extended duration with more switches or rest pauses
shorter duration with less switches or rest pauses
lighter weight for extended duration
heavier weight for shorter duration
greater reps per minute (RPMs) at lighter weight
fewer RPMs at heavier weight
simpler complexity for greater RPMs
simpler complexity for heavier weight
simpler complexity for fewer switches or rest pauses
simpler complexity for extended duration
increased complexity at fewer RPM
increased complexity at lighter weight
increased complexity with more switches or rest pauses
increased complexity with shorter duration



exile said:


> So why are you trying to attribute to me, or jks, or anyone else a position about _isolating_ exercises that no one has taken? And would you mind pointing out to us who with any authority in this area has _ever_ claimed that isolating exercises can lead to `increased general physical preparation'. What is the purpose of these straw men?



I can see that I've been less than clear, and that we're talking past each other, no matter how many times you use my name.

You say that you don't place physique first in your value chain, but your last post is about increasing bicep size.  Who cares about bicep size?  

You say you're not in favor of isolation exercises, but your last post is about concentration curls.

And, I'm not here to convince anybody, or sell anybody anything.


----------



## exile

rutherford said:
			
		

> You say you're not in favor of isolation exercises, but your last post is about concentration curls.



One, you've totally ignored the particular point that my example raises. Two, using an example to establish a point is not the same as advocating the exercise used in that example, right? Or do you actually think that using exercise X as an _example_ of a physiological (non)effect entails an _endorsement_ of X?? You believe that using something as an illustration implies a recommendation of that thing for some specific purpose? 

For those interested in some actual research supported both by experimental protocols and by muscle biopsy studies, note the following from Sisco & Little's _Power Factor Training:_

_...as our bodies adapt toa certain level of resistance by developing larger and stronger muscles, the overload in our workouts must be increased if further growth is to be achieved. This cause-and-effect relationship has been labeled the progressive overload principle, which states that in order to grow progressively larger muscles, the skeletal muscles must be routinely subjected to ever-increasing demands... as far as building muscle mass is concerned, the sole objective is muscle fiber recruitment.  The more muscle fibers recruited, the more activated; the more activated, the greater the growth stimulation. It therefore stands to reason that the more muscle fibers called into play or made to contract against resistance, the more muscle fibers will be stimulated to hypertrophy, or grow larger.

It was demonstrated clinically in 1973 that, at light loads, slow twitch fibers contract and are capable of sustaining repeated contractions at this relatively low level of intensity. Since these fibers are weaker, they're not suited to a higher intensity of effort or overload. If a greater load is imposed upon the muscle, a progressive recruitment of larger and stronger (fast-twitch) muscle fibers occurs. Thus, when the load increases from light to heavy, there is a progressive increase in the number of muscle fibers involved in the contraction. In essence, light loads, regardless of how many sets and reps you perform with them, recruit primarily slo-twitch muscle fibers, which have the lowest capacity to increase in size. Heavier loads recruit fast-twitch fibers in addition to the slow-twitch fibers already activated.
_​
(_Power Factor Training_, pp. 53-54). The work Sisco and Little are invoking here appeared in the severely peer-reviewed _Journal of Physiology_ in 1973 as a pair of papers by H.S. Milner-Brown et al., and in the experimental results reported by D.H. Clarke, `Adaptations in strength and muscular endurance resulting from exercise' in another premier refereed journal of record, _Exercise & Sports Sciences Review_ 1.73&#8211;102, also published in 1973. These watershed results have been subsequently confirmed repeatedly in experimental exercise physiology. Forced contraction of fast twitch fibers yields hypertrophy; forced contraction of slow twitch muscles yields increased endurance at a given level of strength, but only marginal muscle growth (the musculature of sprinters vs. marathoners has been a fertile research area for exploration of this approach in cardio-intensive exercise, and the results are exactly the same: sprinting yields gains in musculature because it relies almost exclusively on fast twitch muscle fibers; marathoners rely primarily on slow-twitch fibers. Contemporary photos from the 30s and 40s indicate that sprinters in the pre-steroidal era were noticeably more powerfully built than marathoners, even those who had started off with average builds, and this is why).

The bottom line: once you reach a certain point, you can only increase skeletal muscle volume non-chemically by increasing the overload that that muscle must resist. Repetition at the same level that the body has already adapted to will call upon muscle fiber bundles that do not respond to forced contraction by increasing in size. 

For the record, those of you who've been following this thread from the beginning will note that I early on pointed out the need for specific skill-targeted exercises for MAs, and cautioned that even the strongest bodybuilders and weightlifters will not be able to carry out certain techniques in the MAs even a little bit unless they specifically train for strength in those techniques. I gave examples. I suggested that a mix of general large-muscle strength exercises and skill-targeted MA exercises was probably the best bet for the like of us, and just what the mix was was something individual, to be determined by your own experience. 

So now maybe we can proceed with the thread topic: the best ways to increase your pushup numbers and how everyone is doing in their respective quests?


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## newGuy12

Yes, we are getting on with it.  And, I for one, will not be taking any manner of steroids or any other such supplement.  No.  It will be all natural exercise.


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## exile

newGuy12 said:


> Yes, we are getting on with it.  And, I for one, will not be taking any manner of steroids or any other such supplement.  No.  It will be all natural exercise.



Very smart, nG (not that I ever doubted you for a second!) The number of suspicious deaths in bodybuilding continues to rise, and there are plenty of documented near-catastrophes that are only generally known in the bodybuilding world. One consummate ironyor maybe not irony so much as poetic justicethe man who brought steroids to the American scene in the 1950s, John Ziegler, MD (???!!!) probably died from steroid abuse himself; you might find the article on his life and career here a useful cautionary tale...


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## Andy Moynihan

And a week later that's now 42.


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## newGuy12

Good show, Andy Moynihan!  Going from 29 to 41 is a good increase, I'd say.

I did 21 tonight just before class.  That's just one more than the previous measure, but its still an increase.  The increase before that (to 20) was a hallmark.

I wish to do at least 25 Thursday when I max out again.  Hehe, 30 would be better of course.

Maybe if I keep doing the weights on Saturdays, I can get to where I can sit in seiza without my knee popping about.  Who knows?  There is an Aikido club that uses the same facilities that I practice Kempo at now.  A little "swirling motion" would be nice, now, wouldn't it???


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## Doc_Jude

newGuy12 said:


> Oh, my!  No joke?
> 
> There is a gymnasium right down the street from me, and the people who run it don't make you sign a contract.  You can even come in and pay for one single visit if you wish, and I think its $25 / month (or less / month if you do prepay for a longer time).  Oh, this is something.
> 
> I can also use the pull-down pulley machine (I cannot do a single pull-up now, and this will be a "baby step" toward that goal).  A Marine friend of mine told me that I should do pullups as well as pushups.
> 
> Also, I have a somewhat chronic knee condition that a friend who is a physical therapist told me could be helped by using the leg machines (very carefully, very slowly).
> 
> Man, thank you for the tip, exile!  Whew!  Tomorrow is Saturday, the perfect day for the "one day per week" power-rack exercise!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High Regards,
> 
> Robert



Dips will help you pushup goal more than pull-ups.


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## still learning

Hello, Just about everyone in ever country....knows push-ups is a good excercise....NO equitment is need except for a floor of some kind, Also it is NOT fair to do it standing up?

The more you do? ....the stronger you get...simple!  (no technical data is needed).  One of the few excerises that gets results?

One can do this on their backs? ...just have a pipe 2-3 feet off the ground and hands on bar,heels on the ground...PULL-UP....Pull-ups' instead of push-ups?

This is a flavoriate one too....prefer a bench or chair....heels  on the ground, butt off the floor and hands on the edge of bench/chair and squat arms down and up...great for triceps!

Aloha ( 100 push-ups by christmas) ...um 2014?


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## exile

still learning said:


> The more you do? ....the stronger you get...simple!  (no technical data is needed).



Doing more pushups will _not_ give you more explosive strength, for the reasons I and others have posted above. Once you've adapted to a given performance burden (fixed, in this case, by your body weight), you are working slow-twitch, not fast-twitch muscles; the former do not contribute to strength; they are the fiber-groups which are responsible for increasing endurance, which is why (i) running marathon-type lengths will not increase your leg strength, but will allow you to continue running for longer periods of time at a stretch and (ii) people with a much great proportion of slow-twitch muscles than fast-twitch muscles have a distinct advantage in marathon running, but tend to be hopeless in sprints.

And what is technical data not needed _for??_ 




still learning said:


> One can do this on their backs? ...just have a pipe 2-3 feet off the ground and hands on bar,heels on the ground...PULL-UP....Pull-ups' instead of push-ups?



They train entirely different muscle groups. Pushups are pec/delt/triceps stressors (as they should be, being a low-key inverted bench-press) while pullups train lats/biceps. I'm not saying one is better than the other, and for major strength gains I'd prefer free-weight benches and weighted dips for the first and weighted chins for the second... just bear in mind that they are training two quite different upper body muscle groups.


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## newGuy12

I hope that everyone realizes that THE GAUNTLET HAS BEEN THROWN DOWN!

It still "counts" if you go to the rest position (the authorized rest position) to take a break.  You are still doing the 100 pushups in one lick.  You see, I am just maxing out and then stopping.  When it is "showtime", you take the rest position when you max, when you fail, and then, resume, and you keep pumping them out.

We still have Oct and Nov.  The balance of December too!

Now listen!  There are challenges that humans have.  Some are self imposed.  But, there are conflicts in life.  Epic battles of Good, and Evil.  The Rebel Forces vs the Empire.

Will anyone pick up the gauntlet and rise to the occasion?

Oh, yes.  

Some members of the martialtalk board will.  And they will succeed.  No time for negative talk, or negative thinking.  Who Dares Wins.  Period.

Now, I WILL report to you that I have done 25 in one lick Thursday.  I say to you now, or may I lose face in front of you!

I will succeed because of the spirit!


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## exile

newGuy12 said:


> I
> Now, I WILL report to you that I have done 25 in one lick Thursday.  I say to you now, or may I lose face in front of you!
> 
> I will succeed because of the spirit!




I'm not in any doubt of _that_, nG! What troubles me is the non-random resemblance you (I presume it's you) bear in your avatar to the intimidating Cobra Kai chap admonishing Pat Morita and his young apprentice there... are you sure you weren't a Very Menacing Person at some earlier phase of your life??? :xtrmshock


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## newGuy12

exile said:


> I'm not in any doubt of _that_, nG! What troubles me is the non-random resemblance you (I presume it's you) bear in your avatar to the intimidating Cobra Kai chap admonishing Pat Morita and his young apprentice there... are you sure you weren't a Very Menacing Person at some earlier phase of your life??? :xtrmshock



Haha!  Back years ago, I thought that I was getting along with it well.  I fancied myself a good TKD black belt, but that was only my perception.  And we trained hard.  Now, I am nothing but a weakling, and in middle age.

But that does not mean that I have to sit on the couch and accept it.  No.  I have met good instructors and students who have let me practice their Kempo.  Now, that does not have the THUNDER of the TKD that I am accustomed to (or could do now, I am too weak).

To each his own, but, I may, if I get enough stamina back (and if my knee gets good enough) --> go back and meet other black belts from our school.  Our GrandMaster is now gone.  May He rest in peace.  But, a senior student now has a school!  

If I can get my strength back, I may go to visit him and try to join into his dojang!  

I understand that my way is to stand for Goodness.  We see the Man from Okinawa here, he stood for Good Things.  Even if I can never be a good free-spar man, I can still enjoy life and stand for Goodness myself, to be a good citizen, and in good shape.

Like some Yogis said -- they get into good shape for many reasons, and one is to be of more use to other people!


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## Doc_Jude

newGuy12 said:


> Will anyone pick up the gauntlet and rise to the occasion?
> 
> Oh, yes.
> 
> Some members of the martialtalk board will.  And they will succeed.  No time for negative talk, or negative thinking.  Who Dares Wins.  Period.
> 
> Now, I WILL report to you that I have done 25 in one lick Thursday.  I say to you now, or may I lose face in front of you!
> 
> I will succeed because of the spirit!



Hell Yeah!


*SWEEP THE LEG!!!*


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## tahuti

Why is assumed in bodyweight exercises to keep same form forever?

With weights, when it becomes too easy you add more weights, with bodyweight you need to change leverage to make it harder.

If regular pushup is too easy switch to 1 arm pushup or 1 arm-1leg pushup (still trying to keep good form), or use 3 chairs since ground is now much lower than you are, you can do deeper pushups. There are lots of variation depending on position of legs and arms. Some cheap equipment, resistance bands, backpack, T-cross.

And for explosive strength, why not clap pushups or even triple clap pushups?

100 pushups is good endurance training.


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## newGuy12

Okay, people.  As promised, 25!
Furthermore, I was able to knock out all of the five sets of 20 in class tonight, no problem.
We are so getting there!

Another reminder... there is no "time limit" on this.  That is, if it takes one more than two minutes to knock out "The Big 100", then so be it.  It may take three minutes, whatever.

Oh, this is going to be one memorable holiday season.  I can almost smell that holly tree now!


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## benj13bowlin

newGuy12 said:


> Okay, people. As promised, 25!
> Furthermore, I was able to knock out all of the five sets of 20 in class tonight, no problem.
> We are so getting there!
> 
> Another reminder... there is no "time limit" on this. That is, if it takes one more than two minutes to knock out "The Big 100", then so be it. It may take three minutes, whatever.
> 
> Oh, this is going to be one memorable holiday season. I can almost smell that holly tree now!


 
Congratz on the 25!  If you add one more a day you will hit and be past the mark by X-mas.  Keep up the hard work


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## newGuy12

benj13bowlin said:


> Congratz on the 25!  If you add one more a day you will hit and be past the mark by X-mas.  Keep up the hard work



Yessir!


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## Andy Moynihan

newGuy12 said:


> Okay, people. As promised, 25!
> Furthermore, I was able to knock out all of the five sets of 20 in class tonight, no problem.
> We are so getting there!
> 
> Another reminder... there is no "time limit" on this. That is, if it takes one more than two minutes to knock out "The Big 100", then so be it. It may take three minutes, whatever.
> 
> Oh, this is going to be one memorable holiday season. I can almost smell that holly tree now!


 

HOOah!


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## jim777

OK, I saw this thread late but I'm as well! We need 100 pushups and 200 situps for our blackbelt test anyway, so it's all good.

At the moment I can pop out 40 pushups well and correctly, and another 65 situps immediately after. I generally get my 40 in and go right to situps, so I'll see about stretching it this evening. I'll aim for 45 and see how it goes, if it goes well I'll keep going and see where I end up.


jim


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## meth18au

I did 80 straight tonight in class.  We dropped and pushed out our max.  I got to 80.  This was like an hour and a half into class.  I'd probably done around 200 pushups already at that point.  So I think I may be able to get 100 now in one go.  I'm might give it a go on Monday....let you know how I went!


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## newGuy12

My gosh!  You are so there!!!


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## jim777

jim777 said:


> At the moment I can pop out 40 pushups well and correctly,
> 
> jim


 
Knocked out 56 tonight, decent ones, too. Good enough for testing 
I have to say, I'm pretty pleased. 

jim


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## jim777

I've managed to get up to 60 with fingers out, but I started to feel the old carpal tunnel coming back in my right arm, so I've switched to doing them on my fists (which seems much better for my arm) and I can still do 45. I'll have to see what I can do to get up to 100 without killing my right wrist. Still going though


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## newGuy12

jim777 said:


> I've managed to get up to 60 with fingers out, but I started to feel the old carpal tunnel coming back in my right arm, so I've switched to doing them on my fists (which seems much better for my arm) and I can still do 45. I'll have to see what I can do to get up to 100 without killing my right wrist. Still going though



Yeah, I need to get another max count to see where I stand.  I was going to do them on my fists all along.  Wonder why your count is lower using the fists rather than the palms?  I would think it would be the same.


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## Xue Sheng

100 pushups by Christmas


*HA!!!
*
Thats easy :ultracool....... :uhohh: or do you mean all at the same time? :uhyeah:

I will give it a go.


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## newGuy12

Xue Sheng said:


> Thats easy :ultracool....... :uhohh: or do you mean all at the same time? :uhyeah:
> 
> I will give it a go.



All at the same time, BUT --> you can assume an "authorized rest position", no time limit.  Still, that will be a stretch for me.  And, I'm running out of time!

You can vary anything according to how you wish to do it, of course.  You can vary the number or any other constraint on your own contest, no problem.  Different people may wish to achieve different results, and so on.  

I am starting to fear that I will fail.  But I am not giving up hope yet.  Two months is still a good amount of time.  If I succeed, I will get a friend with a video camera to post up evidence of my doing this -- a video display of the feat for all to view.




Robert


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## still learning

Hello Newguy12,  We are now using the plan you give us for most of out excercises's (for our Kempo Classes)

We adopted the muliple sets for push-ups, sit-ups, jump roping (we always done it that way), but more will be added

The program makes alot sense to built up to 100 or more!  Thank-you for sharing, .........Aloha


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## newGuy12

No kidding?  That's great news!

I am going to start to also practice with an American Kenpo Teacher.  He and I once had the same instructor, and now he has a school.   He knows ground fighting techniques, of course, and it will be good!  

I'm not jumping rope (yet), also, I don't do situps.  I do crunches and leg lifts instead.  I'm also going to do the Legendary Abs routine.  The weight lifting is coming along nicely, my knee is feeling much better because of it!

Right! --> pushups on the knuckles on concrete!  That's "Old-School" Style!!!


ALOHA!


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## still learning

newGuy12 said:


> No kidding? That's great news!
> 
> I am going to start to also practice with an American Kenpo Teacher. He and I once had the same instructor, and now he has a school. He knows ground fighting techniques, of course, and it will be good!
> 
> I'm not jumping rope (yet), also, I don't do situps. I do crunches and leg lifts instead. I'm also going to do the Legendary Abs routine. The weight lifting is coming along nicely, my knee is feeling much better because of it!
> 
> Right! --> pushups on the knuckles on concrete! That's "Old-School" Style!!!
> 
> 
> ALOHA!


 
Hello, Jumping rope...is more than just jumping and building stamia...it builds upper body, lower body, tone, helps strenghting the lower back, build coordination, and there are many different routines too! Much more too!  oh legs the calves, thighs ....

That is why Boxers, wrestlers, and most martial artist do them!  Start slow and build up!  Most pro-boxer can go 30 minutes or more.

One of the few excersies most people don't like!   ...is consider one of the more better ones for all us!

Just my opinion here........Aloha


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## meth18au

Hey SL...I agree with you about skipping.  And I love skipping.  I jump rope everyday!!! 


I was going to do it the other week, but I've been lazy and delayed my 100 pushups!!!  Until tonight that is!!!  I did a sparring session with my mate at the gym, and before we started we both got down and did the pushups!!!  I got 100 straight, normal grip (palms on floor and slightly wider than shoulder width).  I might start working towards 100 Dips now.  I'd say the most I've done in one go is around 30?  Though I've never really tried to do more and usually strrap some weight to myself...


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## newGuy12

Well, congratulations on the 100, meth18au.  You are the first to report success!


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## meth18au

Why thank you Sir


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