# Take the test is your school a mcdojo.



## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

Read this http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=71

I am thinking some of you right now are in a mcdojo .  Hopefully you will one day free yourself.  Good luck hope this helps you.



DOWN WITH MCDOJOS!:soapbox: :soapbox:


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=94
http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=41
http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=40 a must read.
http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=93
http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=65 number 1 befor 2 for mcdojos.




A good one http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=103
http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=45
http://www.bullshido.us/article_read.asp?id=47


These are some good articals you should read there are many more on www.bullshido.us

Injoy


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

If you have any questions about mcdojos feel free to ask me i dont mind giving advice.  I some stuff about them from what i have seen on the internet.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

EVERYONE TAKE THE TEST READ THE ARTICALS!


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## white belt (Jan 12, 2003)

JK,

You're just not a very happy guy are you?  You were asked about your credentials on another thread (that YOU started) dealing with mastery of a shopping list of Martial Arts.  You then evaded the subject when clarification of the "authenticity" of your lessons was brought up (FMA).  Then an opportunity to train with an honest, knowldgeable person was not very attractive to you for some reason.  Answer your own question.  Are you involved in a McDojo?  Let the other forum members then help you decide.  We don't mind sharing. 

Also, those nude photos of Britney are fabricated.  Don't believe EVERYTHING you see on the Internet.  It's kind of like being fooled to train at Big Mac's school of MA.  You might win a free happy meal.  But, then again those are for happy people, right? 

Some of the stuff on Bullshido is very accurate.  There are bad schools in both traditional arts AND MMA.  Some postings are from people who's lips move when they read a stop sign.  The "lip movers" can't follow directions, quit and then classify any school with uniforms as McDOJO to justify their dropping out. They then run from school to school claiming as their goal multiple masteries when actually they are in denial about their own SELF DISCIPLINE not being enough to stay in one place for awhile.  Do you know one of those guys?  I bet you do.  Learn how to sift through the "truth on the Internet" and then present yourself in a knowledgeable fashion. 

Have you ever been to a "Brickin'" by any chance? 

Your buddy,
white belt


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## Matt Stone (Jan 12, 2003)

Judo-kid - 

While I appreciate your efforts to help others "educate" themselves, I have to question both your motives, your understanding, and your experience...

What may on the surface appear to be a McDojo may be a good school whose instructor has chosen to make his teaching his primary source of income.  What may appear to be a non-commercially oriented school may in fact be a school whose instructor's credentials are questionable at the very least but who relies on anonymity and the ignorance of those in the community he infects to maintain his income.

Labeling a school a McDojo is a drastic thing, and should not lightly be approached.  The school of an instructor that blatantly flaunts the rules of established organizations governing that instructor's art could easily be categorized as a McDojo by someone who disagreed with the said instructor's intentions...

If you don't understand what I meant by the last paragraph above, PM me and I will explain it further.  Or, better yet, come train with us in Puyallup.

My email remains wolfden68@hotmail.com.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Jan 12, 2003)

I read most of them.  They're not expert based.  They're more
MMA'ers going on and on about how kata is useless and dogging
on traditional m.a.  That and jokes about it, I find it lacking in
factual information.

Yiliquan, you probably know this already, but just in case.  Publicly
posting your email like that can open you up for heavy amounts
of unsolicited emails.

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Jan 12, 2003)

Kirk - 

Yeah, I know, but I like that delete button!!!


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## Kiz Bell (Jan 12, 2003)

Bullshido is an interesting little site, there are a few good articles there, but a lot of very bad one's too.  It's worth a look but take everything you read there with a huge grain of salt.  I agree with Kirk here, there's way too much kata-bashing and bagging out traditional martial arts, which got up my nose 'cause I'm a traditional martial artist myself.  Way too many statements like "all aikido dojo's in the west are mcdojos" (no, really, someone really said that) and "Krav Maga is less likely to be a McDojo than Karate because Krav Maga doesn't have kata and Karate does.)


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## Elfan (Jan 12, 2003)

They also have some videos.


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## fissure (Jan 12, 2003)

> If you have any questions about mcdojos feel free to ask me i dont mind giving advice. I some stuff about them from what i have seen on the internet.



I assume that the "stuff from the internet" would be the base for your advice?
Due to the fact that you have VERY limited exp. in the MAs you practice. NO exp. in the MAs that others practice. Have never seen the instructors/schools/ methods that you would be passing judgement on - I think your help would be limited at best.


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## white belt (Jan 12, 2003)

Fairbairn, Applegate and Biddle.

If you don't know who these men are, then research the names and pick up on their important contributions to the free world.  They trained in Kung Fu, Jujitsu, Judo, etc. to add knowledge and bite to the base already developed around Western boxing and wrestling.  The Oriental techniques were deemed very important by these men.  They are still taught in our military forces to this day.  The techs. used are for the most part not "Octagon friendly".  They are largely derived from TRADITIONAL MA systems.  Those moves can be found in KATA.  Three examples are the knee to groin smash, the palm heel to nosebase or chin and the eye rip.  KATA.  A few compatible BJJ moves have even been added within the last 10-15 years.

The MMA competitions are great, but from a business standpoint they are not attractive to most average people looking for self defense.  Cauliflower ears, missing teeth, etc. are what most people are wanting to avoid along with serious bodiy injury.  A good traditional art can help them learn defense without as much serious injury risks.  Why do I point this out?  A LOT of MMA people are jealous of the Traditionalists being able to attract a larger clientele for lessons and actually make a decent living at it.  This is one of the main reasons for some of the bashing that goes on that most don't talk about much.  I have had first hand experience dealing with this, from a marketing standpoint, with my school (TKD) and some friends who tried to keep their MMA schools open.  They have great personalities and are regionally easily at the top of their game, but they could not keep enough students long term due to the severity of contact and associated training injuries.  I tained with them myself to pick up some different knowledge. I even found they were using some moves that are the same as moves in some of my Hyung (Kata).  There is some bitterness about the business end of things that causes bashing of even legitimate traditional schools.  Not just bashing of McDojangs.  Some of you school owners know what I am talking about.  There is a lot of smoke and mirrors from BOTH sides.

white belt


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

Hey take it or leave it kind of deal,  I am just trying to help people out who want it.

I first off am not at a mcdojo at all i never signed a contract.

The teachers are not childern.

I dont get BS about things very straight forword.

I can cross train at other schools.

Poeple are friendly.

No hidden fees.

I train at 2 gyms each the rates are very slim.

No money cost for belt test,  Just like 5$ for the belt.


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## superdave (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Hey take it or leave it kind of deal,  I am just trying to help people out who want it.
> 
> I first off am not at a mcdojo at all i never signed a contract.
> ...



JK, 

Signing a contract doesn't automatically make the school a McDojo. 

Think of it this way. The instructor has rent,  insurance, taxes(if he owns the property)equipment, and general upkeep to pay for. There may be other instructors who also receive a sum of money for their time and effort  teaching other students.

What would be the BS that you refer to?What would stop someone from cross training if they were at a McDojo?

Unfriendly people make a McDojo?

Hidden fees? Please elaborate.

You seem to be on a crusade to discredit every system out there that doesn't  focus on grappling or UFC competition. Keep this in mind, the more popular an art becomes, the more likely it will be watered down in the future. As things get passed down from person to person, things get changed for some reason or another, and not always for the better.  

Open your eyes, and explore all there is to be offered in the MA world. What you consider a worthless system, may be just what someone else wants and or desires. They all have a place and a value. Any type of training beats no training at all.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 12, 2003)

1 persons mcdojo is another persons top quality school.   The acctual definition varies from person to person.

I know of several very good schools that if looked at with the 'checklist' will have a lot of the signs...however they have very qualified instructors, who care about the art and quality of teaching.  They are however just trying to make a living from doing what they love.

On the otherside is the frauds, charletins and other preditors...who just do it for a buck, with no worries about the students wellbeing.


As a complete internet geek, I will say this much..just because its online, doesn't make it true...or false.  Just because you find it on 50+ sites, doesn't make it accurate either.  Check with off-net sources, former students, the better business bureo, local newspapers, etc.  

Thanks for the link JK.:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

Ok also i didnt say anything about martial arts, There are mixed Martail arts mcdojos as well and also by hidden fees i mean you get upgraded so you can join a lvl 2 class just 199 please.  that kind of bs.


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## fringe_dweller (Jan 12, 2003)

Our school offers contracts or agreements. They are white belt, blue belt and black belt agreements. Basically what it comes down to is that white belt you can leave whenever you like with no "penalty charges", blue is a cheaper monthly payment but you must provide three months notice while the bb agreement is the cheapest of them all but you must provide six months notice before you leave. Basically it's a balance - you offer a commitment and you will get cheaper fees. What's my point? Buggered if I know....

Respectfully,


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

Given that I work as a paralegal in the real world, my outlook is this - *not* having a contract for a commercial school is potential suicide for the business.  

Contracts outline financial responsibilities of the student, as well as defining potential liability issues.  Would I teach at a commercial location without a contract?  Not on your life.  Does that make me a BS teacher?  Not hardly.  Just a legally savvy one...

Hidden fees?  They are all over, and are certainly a bad thing.  But so are instructors who use their students to earn a name for themselves...  Judo-kid, I think you know who I am referring to, or at least you should.  I mean no offense, but it is an important point that needs to be made...

Anything short of the most ethically correct behavior on the part of the teacher is reprehensible and should mark that instructor as someone that needs serious work on their character.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

So Yiliquan1 are you saying that my instruters are having me go around bashing things and promoting them.  Answer,  Not at all.

My views are my own and no one ever tells me anything about other arts. 

In my classes we focouse on fighting not on slanding other martial arts.   What i do on my own i do by my self.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

The only thing i would say that has anything to do with my martial arts classes that i really post online when showing my opoin is proble my Name LOL?


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Also you say with out contracts it is bussiness sucide,  I believe if you have  a strong effective program you dont need contracts because happy constermer come back.   What would safeway or qfc or any of them do if you had to sign a contract to eat there.  Get real,  They get bussiness because they provide a job and they do it well.   Your funny


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Also you say with out contracts it is bussiness sucide,  I believe if you have  a strong effective program you dont need contracts because happy constermer come back.   What would safeway or qfc or any of them do if you had to sign a contract to eat there.  Get real,  They get bussiness because they provide a job and they do it well.   Your funny *



I may be funny to you, but to me you are an inexperienced youngster that has no knowledge of the legal pitfalls a commercial school has in store for it if it is unable to protect itself in court...

Have you ever been to court?  If so, how many times?  I have been to court dozens of times, and that has just been last month...  

If the business wants to stay in business, it has contracts.  The instructor's relationship to the student, the nature of the services provided, etc., all need to be covered.  Comparing Safeway and martial arts is apples and oranges.  If you did something at Safeway that was potentially dangerous, you would have to sign a contractual liability waiver that relieved Safeway and its agents of any actual resposibility for your injuries...  Eating their food doesn't constitute the same legal relationship.



> *So Yiliquan1 are you saying that my instruters are having me go around bashing things and promoting them. Answer, Not at all.*



Am I incorrect in the knowledge that your judo coach is the same coach that made the news some time back for having his children refuse to bow at judo competitions?  This was done for what reason other than to make a name for himself?  His religious convictions?  Then they didn't have to compete.  Sorry to bring this up, and doubly sorry if the information (that I think you supplied right after you joined Martial Talk; although I have no idea if you are still training with him, so the info may be out of date) is incorrect.  Either way, the judo organizations told him bow or don't participate.  He had his 15 minutes of fame at the expense of his children.  If he really wanted to make a point, and not a name, he shouldn't have used his kids, but gone and refused himself...

Whatever.

Bottom line, the definition of what is and is not McDojo qualifying is relative and subjective.  It could be said that an MMA dojo that markets itself as such is a McDojo because it is riding the current MA trend like the nina schools of the 80s or the BJJ schools of the 90s...

So, when are you coming to Puyallup? 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

ouch lol low blow. 

My coach for Judo John R Holm.  Is one of the best in the state and if you dont believe me take a look at judo tournments because we usaully rank Number `1.

Under

 US Judo Training center

Not to mention the fact he spent over `100000 dollars in court and now you no longer have to bow to the mat.

He was nt lying about his childern they really are not suppost to bow to the mat,  O wait i only know them.

Also I dont like bowing to the mat,  Why the hell should i bow to somthing that isnt a live.  I dont really care that much about bowing to people but objects that arnt even human give me a break.

You also noted that i know nothing about bussiness, Again your wrong i happen to know most bussiness that open usally fail but thats no reasion to inloop people in contracts.

I also train at TAP-WRESTLING as well as US Judo Training center.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

Have you ever _run_ a business?  That would give you something with which to back up your comments...

Have you ever taught?  Are you aware that you are liable for everything that happens within the class room, to include things that you were not physically responsible for?  Do you know what you need to do to protect yourself legally?  Do you know how lawsuits work, or how a business and a proprietor differ?

If the answer to any of those questions is "no," then it is likely you don't have enough information to support your claims.

Again, contracts alone do not make a McDojo.

Sorry for the low blow.  The point bore revisiting to point out that in some people's eyes your coach could be guilty of running a McDojo based on other criteria.  I never questioned his skills - from what I understand they are quite respectable.  It is his public displays that make him run the line of McDojo and the reasons for them.  Not his skills.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

First off i never said signing a contract makes it a mcdojo.

What i did say was it is part of the criterea of most mcdojos.

Also i happen to know alot of people and have talked to alot of people who own there own little bussiness and asked them what it took.  Anyhow in martial arts they usally need a good 5 grand worth insurience and there are many other things i under stand that it is tough.

Another thing is most tradinal Judoka people hate my coach,  But he is a good guy.  I do believe he beleives in the anti bowing moviment and it is not a way to make his school bigger at all.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Lol i said 5 grand ment 5 million.


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## Aegis (Jan 13, 2003)

To my mind, bowing is a part of judo. If you don't want to bow because of religious reasons, then you probably shouldn't be doing a martial art which requires you do do so by the rules of the international governing body. It's one of the ways of saying "this is me, I'm in the fighting area and ready to go" without actually having to say that to the judge/instructor. It's a quick and easy way of identifying people leaving or entering classes. It's a sign of respect too, but that seems to have been lost on a lot of people, and they instead focus on the first two points instead. 

As for what makes a McDojo... Not totally sure on this one. I'm sure I've seen a few tha were obvious at the time, but I can't remember why.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Yeah you know by saying that you proble piss off alot of buddist and muslim people around the world.  I am nether yet still martial arts has nothing to do with bowing.
It may deal with respect but if its in your relegion not to bow then you really shoudlnt have to.

First off you can use a friendly hand shake instead for these people.

People who have relegious reasons for not bowing shouldnt have to in a sport.

Thats just like saying weman shouldnt wrestle.


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## qizmoduis (Jan 13, 2003)

Bowing in Judo and in Japanese culture isn't religious in nature.  It is the cultural equivalent of the western handshake.  Bowing is part of the sport.  If you don't like, don't participate.

Why should "religious reasons" be given special priority?  In most cases I've seen, "religious objections" is really code for "I'm a pretentious, ignorant moron who is intent on imposing my uneducated provinciality on the rest of society at large."

If you didn't understand that, allow me to distill it for you: Objecting to bowing in judo on religious grounds is STUPID!

Now, as to the McDojo question, you have to take things said at Bullshido.com with a HUGE pile of salt.  The place is dominated by MMA fanatics.  They have a few good things to say, but the majority of it is pointless posturing.


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## KennethKu (Jan 13, 2003)

You don't bow when you turn on your Sony TV. You don't bow when you get into your Toyota. You don't bow when you pick up your Samsung cell phone. Why should you bow when you learn to use a Korean art or a Japanese art?  

That said, I don't see any problem in bowing to the instructors. That is no difference than saluting your superiors in the military or shaking hand with your boss. But I don't particularly care to bow at a foreign flag or the picture of the late founder. At another person who returns my greeting, yes. At an object, hmmm kind of silly.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 13, 2003)

My only question here is, since the bow is considered the equivilent of a handshake, but folks object to bowing as a violation of their 'religious' beliefs, then how does one respond when told a handshake is a violation of the other parties beliefs?


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## KennethKu (Jan 13, 2003)

I say, When in Rome, do what the Romans do.

You basically follow the custom of the land, unless it "shocks your conscience" such as headhunting or something criminal in nature.

When in Japan, you bow. When in America, you shake hand.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Lol we will have to move on to somthing everything can do :cheers:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Also another reason for those who dont know much about judo and japan.  Judo has alot of Shinto Relegion in it but if its gonna be a world sport then they shouldnt make poeple bow who cant under there relegion.


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## Marginal (Jan 13, 2003)

Far better for random crazies to enforce their beliefs on others I suppose.


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## Hollywood1340 (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Also another reason for those who dont know much about judo and japan.  Judo has alot of Shinto Relegion in it but if its gonna be a world sport then they shouldnt make poeple bow who cant under there relegion. *



Excuse me? :rofl: That is good JK, would someone open a window? This thread reeks of ignorance.  Oh boy, good thing I wasn't drinking milk when I read this one. Let's start at the begining. The bow has nothing absolutly to do with religion. Nothing whatsoever. However, if you'd like to dissuss this, we can. What is your take on the bow, and how does Shinto enter into it? (I must admit I've never heard Judo and Shinto linked, Zen and Judo yes, but never Shinto.)


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 13, 2003)

ok, we're drifting and I take part of the blame....

Lets keep this one on the 'mcdojo' concept, and if someone wants to continue the bowing/religion part, please start a new thread.
Thanks!


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Ok smart guy, I only do judo (points to the name)
Judo was founded by Shintoist and Alot has to do with the shinto relegion,  Even the trouphys are shinto Gates Come on now.
ROFL


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

Yet again, Judo-kid, you display your lack of first hand knowledge...

I lived in Japan for four years.  You ever been there, even just to visit?  You would be surprised, I think, at how religion plays so little a part of daily Japanese living.  In fact, if you ask a typical Japanese what religion they are (assuming they are not a rabid Christian convert), they will look at you quizzically while trying to figure out how to respond...

Shinto, as an organized religion, isn't.  Most people who do observe Shinto rituals often have no clue as to the reason they do the things they do.  They just know that they are supposed to do them, and they don't worry much about the why of it.

Bowing in Japan is exactly the same as shaking hands.  Even in Christian doctrine, bowing is common-place.  The difference between religious bowing and non-religious bowing is in the intention...  If you bow to a person/thing/place with a sense of religious devotion, awe and reverence, then it is religiously motivated.  If you bow to a person/thing/place with a sense of respect and acknowledgement, then it is not.

If you had experience living outside the community you reside in, you may find that you don't know all the things you think you do...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Well can you shake hands with a picture or a mat or how about the fact that it is somewhat submissive.  Why most of the time in pictures you see a guy bowing lower then the other guy,  This is gonna get ugly.  Wanna just start a new thread on bowing and keep this on the mcdojo subject?

Gotta go Dust off some of the old paper work to do with bowing sigh.


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## mtabone (Jan 13, 2003)

Didnt the US Supreme Court hear a case on this not to long ago and they deemed that Bowing is a simple form of respect, not worship, and there for did not force a religious practice on anyone? I remember because I read that someone was not allowed to compete unless they bowed, and they argued religion. Fought it all the way to the Supreme Court. Does anyone else remember this or heard about it?



Michael Tabone


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## Kirk (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *If you had experience living outside the community you reside in, you may find that you don't know all the things you think you do...*



And therein is the whole thing in a nutshell.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

I dont know about you guys but i dont shake hands with objects that arnt alive,  (see shinto relegion)  in the shinto relegion they believe they must show respect to items that have no life in them,  Give them a spirital meaning.  That is why Alot of judo is part of the shinto relegion and there is lots of other proof you can ask alot of judo masters they will say that shinto has some ground work in Judo/Jujutsu.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Ok smart guy, I only do judo (points to the name)
> Judo was founded by Shintoist and Alot has to do with the shinto relegion,  Even the trouphys are shinto Gates Come on now.
> ROFL *



I wasn't aware that Kano-sensei was a devout Shinto believer.  Could you tell me where you obtained that information? 

Also, if what you say is true, then how is it that such a religious person as your teacher managed to not only participate in, but stick with and excel in, such a heretical, blasphemous pastime?  Shouldn't he have quit long ago...?

Back to the McDojo thing - 

Hidden agendas to training (i.e. prolonging needed training time in order to ensure meal tickets).

"This is how the ancients trained" (though it wasn't how the instructor was trained).

Patches upon patches upon patches.

Encouraging students to donate money to the school/teacher, to emulate the teacher in thought, deed and appearance, to have contact only with other students.

These are a few of my particular favorite sign posts of a sure bet McDojo.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

that was my coach and judo took out the bowing to the mat. You only bow to the mat if you want to now.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

I gtg post later.


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## chufeng (Jan 13, 2003)

> how about the fact that it is somewhat submissive.



Exactly, it is submissive in the sense that no ONE is better than another...in the sense that one comes to the dojo/dojang/kwoon with a humble attitude...one open to LEARNING.

...but, since your focus is being the baddest guy on the block (read...bully) ...you certainly wouldn't be interested in bowing...

Sorry, got on a soapbox...

Back to this thread within a thread...

You claim to be Christian...
Does not Christ turn the other cheek?
Does not Christ say that the way to heaven is by becoming as a child...innocent, curious, and NOT afraid to ask "Why?"
The very essence of humility is mirrored in the innocense of a child who WANTS to learn something...the child does NOT bring self importance to the table...does not bring "I know this" to the table...just "Why?"

:asian:
chufeng

Bowing is NOT submissive...it is an acknowledgement that you come to learn and respect what your teacher has to offer...

It is also a sign (like a handshake) to traet others within the group with courtersy and respect...


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## chufeng (Jan 13, 2003)

Sorry about the typos...I was on a roll...

chufeng


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## Michael Billings (Jan 13, 2003)

This thread is clearly a serious waste of beating one's head against a wall.  

Martial Arts, include fencing, boxing, western wrestling, cane & baton, capoera, savate, krav maga, hisardut, systema, sambo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, etc. do not require a "bow", but touching gloves, shaking hands, etc. is a sign of respect for an opponent.  I think it should be culture specific and if you chose to participate in the art, then retain the traditions, which are of value.  Humility, respect, honor, etc.  

The arguments seems specious and a waste of perfectly good time and intelligence.  Let's agree that someone defending their instructor, and chosen style, will do so adamantly, and follow, as do many students, the lead of their instructor.  Each student is a reflection of the teacher as a mirror held before us.  Use the mirror to improve and change ... or not.  Hopefully with time and seasoning, a little different perspective, then the student can appreciate some of the traditions and instructors that helped shape his art.  

Was that general enough, or was I being too politically correct?  OK what I really think is that some students tend to follow their instructors with almost a cult-like following.  I did a research paper on this in graduate school a couple of decades ago, and the transference and desire to please the teacher almost overwhelmingly, are the student looking for approval from a father or older brother figure.  Remember when you are part of a group sharing the same beliefs, it is difficult to see how any of you can be doing anything wrong.  Specifically, thumbing your nose at your own line of descent, and seniors in the art before you.  

I am letting this one go now, but it obviously pushed one of my buttons, as I watch instructors I respect, self-promote to Grandmaster and opt to change the course of their art, not withstanding that they may be excellent teachers and martial artists.  Why seek approval, publicity, or controversy other than for your own ego?   

This from an instructor who does not use contracts, and definitely has never been accused of running a McDojo.

NOTE: This was to have followed Hollywood's post > Obviously I was not the only one who felt like JudoKids' post reflected poorly on his art, himself, and his instructor.

-Michael Billings


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## white belt (Jan 13, 2003)

If a performer on stage bows after a performance it is in gratitude.  They are not going to hell.  That is an old European custom to express gratitude to be in the audiences company.  Handshakes are of European custom too.  The man or men who started the custom were of a particular religion.  If they did not go to my choice of places to worship, should I not shake their hand when competing at a sporting event?  That is pretty paranoid and messed up.  A bow is a courtesy from afar and a group sign of courtesy as a convenience.  That's all.  I see somebody making a poor attempt at trying to get attention by being contrary for no good reason.  Definite control issues.  This is related to why this person wants to learn how to fight.  They are desperate for any control they can get, no matter how insignificant and ludicrous.  They are compensating for their lack of control in another of their lifes major areas.  Maybe in 10 or 20 years they will reflect and see this.  One can hope anyway.

white belt


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Please just make a new thread on bowing and leave this for the mcdojo awarness.


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## Hollywood1340 (Jan 13, 2003)

See Bowing under GMA
James "Always an artist, never a fighter" Maxwell


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## superdave (Jan 13, 2003)

Would this count?  Check this out, I found it on BudoSeek.




homepage.eircom.net/~brennanpeter/bjjscam.htm


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## Kirk (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by superdave _
> *Would this count?  Check this out, I found it on BudoSeek.
> 
> 
> ...



heheheheheh   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *I dont know about you guys but i dont shake hands with objects that arnt alive,*



Judo-kid, I try very hard to treat your comments with respect, but when you begin spouting such misinformed ka-ka, I have a tough time just keeping in the laughter...  You miss the point entirely regarding the equality, though culturally specific, gestures of bowing and shaking hands.



> *in the shinto relegion they believe they must show respect to items that have no life in them,  Give them a spirital meaning.*



Maybe you should read a book about Shinto.  At least then your comments, right or wrong, would be partially informed rather than off the cuff bleating by someone that doesn't know any better...



> *That is why Alot of judo is part of the shinto relegion and there is lots of other proof you can ask alot of judo masters they will say that shinto has some ground work in Judo/Jujutsu. *



The "do" arts of Japan owe more to Zen Buddhism than they do anything else.  Shinto has a very, very small part to play in Japanese thought.  Saying that judo is somehow based on or influenced by Shinto is absurd.  Get the hint, already...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu (Jan 14, 2003)

As one of my teachers from many eons past told me, "Only one who possesses real spiritual strength can be truly courteous."

   One who is not willing to humble him or her self cannot learn much; will never develop very far.

   Shinto?  In the practice of judo?

   Nope.


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## fist of fury (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by superdave _
> *Would this count?  Check this out, I found it on BudoSeek.
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent I just sent off for my bjj Black Belt. Now nobody can defeat me! I will choke anybody out who defies me.


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## Nightingale (Jan 14, 2003)

the studio I used to be at used contracts.  The studio that I'm currently training at is starting to use them.

I like them. When used correctly.


The way it worked at my old school:

You MUST sign a three month contract when you enter the school.  You could sign up for longer if you wanted, but three months was minimum.  This was for a couple of reasons:

1.  My instructor gave everyone a uniform, a good, heavyweight one, and wanted to make sure he got his money back.

2.  If you're going to train in kenpo for less than three months, you're wasting your time and your instructor's time. 

3.  A three month commitment gives people time to truly evaluate the program.  i've seen a lot of people come to their first class, and hate it.  They hate it because they're out of shape, find it difficult, and have a little trouble adjusting.  If these people weren't on contract, they'd walk out.  However, they figure, they've paid for three months, might as well get their money's worth.  After about two months, they're in better shape, their blocks and kicks are starting to look good, and they've usually gotten their yellow.  They almost always keep coming back.

After the three month contract expired, people could either sign a new 3, 6, or 12 month contract and pay up front in one lump sum (if you broke it down, 12 months was cheaper per month than 6, which was cheaper per month than 3, so if you knew you were going to stay for a while, it was an advantage of a few hundred bucks to sign a 12 month contract)  or they could pay month to month, which was a little more expensive.

There's nothing wrong with giving your students a bit of a financial break if they're giving you a commitment of several months or more.  There is something wrong with DEMANDING that they commit to a contract of several months or more.

Those that were on a month to month payment were still on a contract.  The contract simply listed all the fees for the various contracts, and then made a statement such as "if the student chooses not to enroll in a 3, 6, or 12 month program, the student is considered to be on an "at will" contract that can be terminated at the end of any month by either the instructor or the student.  The student must pay ($$) on the first of each month to renew this contract." or something similar.


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## J-kid (Jan 14, 2003)

Chufeng you call me a bully when i try to avoid fights with untrained fighters unless i really must. 
*just because my beliefs are so diffrent then yours theres no point for taking low blows.*:shrug:   

Next off I am a MMA artist and maybe thats why some of my beliefs on fighting are so diffrent from TMAs sort of beliefs.

A sort time agreement or contract isnt bad but when you reach the 1 years and plus those are what we can say mcdojoish.

I have to get those papers on the computer.
To much for me to type at once.

Superdave that looks like a scam to me.


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## chufeng (Jan 14, 2003)

JK,



> I like to be the tuffist guy on the block (we all do)



You wrote this on another thread...
But, you not only want to be the toughest guy, you want to prove it...
I combined that with the disrespectful way you communicate with others on this forum...and I came up with bully...




> Chufeng you call me a bully when i try to avoid fights with untrained fighters unless i really must.



...and when would it be necessary to fight with untrained fighters?...

Maybe I'm wrong for calling you a bully...maybe not...we've only got what we read on the screen to judge by...
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though...I'm sorry I implied you were a bully...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Nightingale (Jan 14, 2003)

it would be necessary to fight with an untrained fighter when that untrained fighter puts you in a position where you must fight to defend yourself.


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## chufeng (Jan 14, 2003)

Actually, if you are trained properly, you won't find yourself in situations where "someone puts you in a situation..." You will see bad stuff unfolding and leave before you get involved.

The incidence of being a victim of random acts of violence is very small...and many times involves drive by shootings (can't defend against that)...most violent situations "evolve." If you are trained properly, you will leave before it evolves to a point where you are involved.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Deathtrap101 (Jan 14, 2003)

> Actually, if you are trained properly, you won't find yourself in situations where "someone puts you in a situation..." You will see bad stuff unfolding and leave before you get involved.



 Oh Chefung, don't tell me you beleive absolutely all fights are avoidable by yourself. If that were true, nobody would be doing martial arts for self-defence, we would be taking negotiation classes. I think all fights are avoidable, but your not always the one that can stop it(Unless ofcourse you completely avoid all contact with people who dont have a smile on their face,lol).

 But, you did include the word 'most' and so im sure you know that situations can arise where you have to fight. 

 Just my cent and a half.


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## chufeng (Jan 14, 2003)

DeathTrap

Of course there are times when training is necessary to defuse/snuff a situation...

But if you go through life with a chip on your shoulder, or with your chest puffed out, you will almost always find someone willing to knock it off, or sink it.

Most situations are avoidable...in Kent, Washington...the likelihood of needing martial arts as a real defense are slim, at best.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Deathtrap101 (Jan 14, 2003)

> But if you go through life with a chip on your shoulder, or with your chest puffed out, you will almost always find someone willing to knock it off, or sink it.



Too true, im in grade 10 right now and pretty much all through grade 9 and some of grade 10 ive bin bugged about my posture, apparently everyone thought i puffed out my chest. Nothing has ever bin criticle, few times it was remotely threatning, but you always know its there.

 I wont deny i first got into martial arts to learn how to kick some ***, because thats what i wanted to do.  

 I was about to go on into some other things, but i think i went far enough off topic...


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## Nightingale (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Actually, if you are trained properly, you won't find yourself in situations where "someone puts you in a situation..." You will see bad stuff unfolding and leave before you get involved.
> 
> The incidence of being a victim of random acts of violence is very small...and many times involves drive by shootings (can't defend against that)...most violent situations "evolve." If you are trained properly, you will leave before it evolves to a point where you are involved.
> ...



Violence isn't only reserved for largely populated or urban areas.  There are plenty of bullies and *******s everywhere, I'm sure, even in Kent, Washington.  And sometimes its just the matter of ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Some violent situations evolve so slowly that you don't realize what's happening until its too late.

Its not just about proper training. Its about knowing how to read people, and that takes experience.  

And some situations, either you can't get out of, or, a situation you don't want to get out of because the alternative to fighting is worse:

An example:

You're walking from your car into the local bar.  You hear a woman scream from behind you, in the shadows on the far edge of the parking lot, in the opposite direction from the door of the bar. Being the good samaritan that you are, you realize that she needs help and run over to the source of the noise.  A drunk guy is beating the **** out of his girlfriend.  What do you do?  Pull the guy away and potentially start a confrontation? or walk away and pretend you didn't see?  or run inside and try to get a group together for back-up? you probably don't have that much time.

sure, you could avoid the situation and walk away, but could you live with yourself when you open the newspaper and discover that her body was found dumped two miles down the road?



"If its a matter of LIFE or DEATH, RIGHT or WRONG, then here are my weapons --karate, my empty hands."  -Ed Parker


We always talk about martial arts being for SELF defense.  We need to realize that there may be times when we need to use it to defend someone else who can't defend themselves.  I think we have an obligation to interfere in a situation where someone is being assaulted or abused.  maybe before we try to change the world, we ought to first change ourselves, then look to our own homes and neighborhoods.  Its easy to feel sorry for the abused and oppressed women in afghanistan... and its also easy to forget about the ones living right next door.  The world turns a blind eye too many times...maybe if we start policing ourselves a little more often, and speak up when things aren't right, maybe we wouldn't have so much darkness to worry about?  of course, I could be wrong.  but I could also be right.


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## Daniel (Jan 17, 2003)

Back to the contracts question...

My first school was one that did yearly contracts at the min, sometimes longer. I didn't know any better at the time but when it was sold I was on the 11th month, they never sent me a bill or anything but 6 months later I got a call from a collection agency for the last months payment. Lets say I've not had the best experiences with long term contracts.

The place I'm at now does billing monthly but it is via electronic funds transfer. To stop the billing you have to give them a months notice, its not all that binding really but it has stopped a few people from quitting after not showing up for a few weeks.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 17, 2003)

Ya know, I sorta like this contentious *Judo-kid * youngster. He does have a way of opening up cans of worms and thowing fuel on the fire with his opinionated and misguided posts based on what I've read in the ensuing wave of responses.  Nice job J-kid, you do know how to get the minions all riled up.  I can just see the steam coming out of some the members' heads :flammad: after reading some Judo-kid wisdom. Makes for amusing reading...


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## J-kid (Jan 18, 2003)

You give me to much credit i fear i only tell you what you really need to hear.  If not from me then from someone else.  
Your safer off with me giving you the 411 on whats going on.

Also i live and kent and there are bullies and stuff walking around.


Its hard to say if one can avoid fights alot of times they happen over minor things and out of Respect.

Respect can be many things and comes in many forms.

A NOTE TO ALL

*YOU CANT STOP THE TRUTH* 
_the truth is out there_


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## mtabone (Jan 18, 2003)

Traditional does not  necessarily mean McDojo

MMA does not necessarily mean effective. 

Michael Tabone


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## Kiz Bell (Jan 18, 2003)

I do a TMA and it's not a McDojo.  I did have a funny experience with a real McDojo, though.  I'd always wanted to do a style of Kung Fu to supplement my sword work, self defence and all that, y'know?  I don't know a whole lot about the different sorts of Kung Fu out there, so I was just checking out a couple of different places.

One I turned up at was beautiful.  They'd turned a scummy old warehouse in a bad area in a passable replica of a Chinese-style temple, with weapons and gods everywhere. They'd advertised a free first lesson so I made my appointment and went.  The lessons apparently usually went for about two hours but the free introductory one was for only half an hour and not taken as part of a class.  It was not given by the person who was to be my teacher but by a senior black belt instead.

Immediately upon it's finish I was whisked into an office and 
asked "Do you want to sign the one year or two year contract?"  

I asked if I could at least see a class first, or maybe pay class by class for the first week or so to see if I liked it.  I was told No, because I might be a rival from another school trying to steal their techniques.  Apparently they had this happen a lot. I must first sign either the one or two year contract to prove I would be loyal to their system.  Also, a student must prove their dedication to their art, and this could be done (again) by signing the  contract.

I was getting a bit suspicious now.  I haven't been involved in the martial arts long, and had never heard of the "McDojo" thing then, but I do know a hard sell when I hear one.  So I asked about the history of their style of Kung Fu.  

"As a beginner that is not important.  You should just concentrate on the techniques.  Our Sifu is a truly amazing man.  He is one of the highest ranked people in XXXX style Kung Fu in the world.  Australia is very lucky to have someone as amazing as Sifu.  By the way, if you're still not sure, we do have six month contracts, but they work out to be a lot more expensive in the long run.  So how about it?" 

Thinking I needed at least a little bit more info before I signed even a six month contract I asked  "What's your Sifu's name?" 

"Sifu" said the black belt.

"I thought that was a title" I said.

"It is" says the black belt. 

"So.... what's his name then?"

"Sifu" says the black belt sternly.  "We show our respect to him by calling him Sifu and you'll be expected to as well.  In the Martial Arts you must learn humility. Now... if you sign the six month contract you can have your first class tomorrow with Sifu himself if you'd like."

I'm sitting there thinking... what, his name's Sifu S. Sifu?  And I have to sign a six month contract before I even get to meet him and find out what sort of Kung Fu I'll be doing? Yeah right!  So I said politely, "Thank you, but I might think it over", left and never went back.


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## chufeng (Jan 19, 2003)

Kiz,

Good choice...
What were they thinking???

I had a similar experience at a TKD Dojang...only I got to talk to the head instructor (Jung, something something)...

I told him I was just shopping for a school and wanted to see how his school compared to other local schools...
He offered me a "black-belt course of instruction" for $1200.00 (that should tell you how long ago it was) "...guarantee, two year black-belt." I asked him how he could guarantee it...I asked "What if I never show up for class?"  He said, "Contract is contract...guarantee two year black belt."  I told him I wasn't interested...He came back with, "You confidence bad...TaeKwonDo make confidence good...make you better in school...make you better get good job...TaeKwonDo make confidence good."  I said I was pretty confident I didn't want anything to do with an instructor who didn't really care whether his students learned anything, or not...then I left, confidently.

:asian:
chufeng


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## MartialArtist (Jan 19, 2003)

One thing is that there seems to be a problem when there are too few or too many students.

Too few students either means the teacher is bad, or the teacher is very good.  The best private and public teachers I've had trained a small number of people.  The reason is that the training was so hard that most people will drop out in the first week.  Some dropped within the first 1 hour out of 4.

If there are too many, it can show that the teacher is friendly.  But it could also mean the class is very easy and doesn't have a lot of hard training in it.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Kiz,
> 
> Good choice...
> ...


LOL!  You did the right thing.  A lot of people would've taken the easy way out and just gotten the black belt so they can show it off and talk about it.  But the problem is that black belts have no more real meaning nowadays.  A white belt does however.

Reason for white.  White symbolizes purity, quick instinct.  When you learn how to fight, you actually will fight worse in the first few months because you have to think about what you're going to do.  "Should I punch him?  How should I block or dodge it?"  Once you reach black, it symbolizes you are proficient in the art.  However, you want the black belt to go back to white.  With so much wear and use, the black belt becomes white.  So again, symbolizing purity and instinct.  But now, your instinct is more systematic and more technical as the techniques are burned into your CNS.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 19, 2003)

So one thing that people should look for is how white the black belt is.

It's not always necessary for a good instructor to have a white belt, but it's a sign of experience.  Like I said, it always isn't necessary and there are many factors.  Like an instructor of a local school just got promoted to 6th dan, so of course it's going to be new.  But his 5th one was gray.  If all the belts are not worn out, that is a good indication on how fast he got promoted and the people overlooked his technique and abilities, etc. or whatever.  That is just my opinion.

Again, a white black belt isn't necessary.  There are many reasons that explain why the black belt isn't white.  It just happens that one of the explanations is that he never really "used" it.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 19, 2003)

Actually, a whitened black belt can be faked, and often is.  It is *not* an indication of experience.  Skill and the ability to train that skill in others is more an indication of experience than any piece of cloth.

Cthulhu


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## Master of Blades (Jan 19, 2003)

I cant be bothered to take the test but I know my school isnt a McDojo because my father is the teacher and my mother learnt alongside him so I know heis the real deal. At first I didnt believe the storys and stuff but then I met the teacher and I realised otherwise. Im 100% sure it isnt. Case Closed.


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## J-kid (Jan 20, 2003)

At least read it,  Useful knowledge.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Actually, a whitened black belt can be faked, and often is.  It is not an indication of experience.  Skill and the ability to train that skill in others is more an indication of experience than any piece of cloth.
> 
> Cthulhu *


Yes, but it's pretty obvious when one fakes it or not.

If the master has a whitened belt and just wants money, you can tell he's a fake.  There are many ways to tell.  However, it could be he's experienced in McDojo schools so hence, the white.

But just by talking to him, you can realize whether he's the real deal or a fake most of the time.  If he says "my art = best", "sign $9000 annual contract", etc. - obvious


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Yes, but it's pretty obvious when one fakes it or not.
> 
> If the master has a whitened belt and just wants money, you can tell he's a fake.  There are many ways to tell.  However, it could be he's experienced in McDojo schools so hence, the white.
> ...



Yes *MAist*, you're so right. If one has been doing the MAs for a while you'll know who's the real deal and who's a quack.  Not that this really helps out a newbie. 

Anyway, I believe that in order to determine who's for real has to do with just the manner in which a person comports themselves, the manner in which they speak about their art and more importantly in the way in which they teach and train their students. Also, it's about the manner in which they execute their techniques. If someone has been doing this martial arts experience for a while, and has the opportunity to observe a few of a supposed master's training sessions, one can usually tell if the master in question is the real deal or not - IMHO...


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## Cthulhu (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Yes, but it's pretty obvious when one fakes it or not.
> 
> If the master has a whitened belt and just wants money, you can tell he's a fake.  There are many ways to tell.  However, it could be he's experienced in McDojo schools so hence, the white.
> ...



Which means you're going by other, more accurate methods of determining the instructor's abilities than mere belt color, which was my whole point 

Cthulhu


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Which means your going by other, more accurate methods of determining the instructor's abilities than mere belt color, which was my whole point
> 
> Cthulhu *



Yup, you are correct Sir! Whether their belt is faded or not should not been used are the sole criterion to determine an instructor's worth... :asian:


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## Jay Bell (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *I dont know about you guys but i dont shake hands with objects that arnt alive,  (see shinto relegion)  in the shinto relegion they believe they must show respect to items that have no life in them,  Give them a spirital meaning.  That is why Alot of judo is part of the shinto relegion and there is lots of other proof you can ask alot of judo masters they will say that shinto has some ground work in Judo/Jujutsu. *



JK,

Your ignorance causes me physical pain.  Shinto is not part of Judo.  Most budo have buddhist or shugendo ties, not Shinto.

If you would pay attention to these posts instead of running your mouth so much, you might learn something.


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## Master of Blades (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *This thread is clearly a serious waste of beating one's head against a wall.
> 
> -Michael Billings *



Finally someone talking sense! And within 4 posts......its a miracle :asian:


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## Shinobi (Jan 25, 2003)

I've ran into McDojo's. One for instance was a TKD one. I wasn't allowed to meet the Grandmaster, who's supposedly the highest ranking 9th Dan in the World. Went in, took a 15 minute class(WOW!), whipped into the office. $1000 up front for 1 year contract. 2 year contract and guaranteed a BB. He kept selling and selling, telling me how effective TKD is, how it's the best, yadda yadda. I told him I was allready orange Belt prior to moving, showed credentals, wouldn't lemme keep Rank. Says if I attend every Class within 2 months i'll have earned an organe anyways. Attend 2 Classes a day for a year and i'll make BB. Whatever, so I left.


Next one was MMA. Called them up, 1 year contract, $100 a month to train with undefeated World Champs in over 200 fights. Gave them my background, they said come on and spar and get my *** kicked to see a "REAL" Art. I laughed and said "Idle threats and big ego's come from small minds." and hung up.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinobi _
> *I've ran into McDojo's. One for instance was a TKD one. I wasn't allowed to meet the Grandmaster, who's supposedly the highest ranking 9th Dan in the World. Went in, took a 15 minute class(WOW!), whipped into the office. $1000 up front for 1 year contract. 2 year contract and guaranteed a BB. He kept selling and selling, telling me how effective TKD is, how it's the best, yadda yadda. I told him I was allready orange Belt prior to moving, showed credentals, wouldn't lemme keep Rank. Says if I attend every Class within 2 months i'll have earned an organe anyways. Attend 2 Classes a day for a year and i'll make BB. Whatever, so I left.
> 
> 
> Next one was MMA. Called them up, 1 year contract, $100 a month to train with undefeated World Champs in over 200 fights. Gave them my background, they said come on and spar and get my *** kicked to see a "REAL" Art. I laughed and said "Idle threats and big ego's come from small minds." and hung up. *



It's stories such as these that give our Arts a bad name, and also make me want to spew... :barf:

Hope things worked out for you. By the way, it looks like you're new around here, which MA did you end up studying?


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## Shinobi (Jan 25, 2003)

I've studied Kenpo some, Tae Kwon Do some. Right now I don't have any as i've been too busy jobhunting. 


But yeah, it is Dojo's like that that give the Arts a bad name. I enjoy TKD very much, but most of the Schools around here are like that. I like Kenpo alot too and may go back once i'm back on my feet.


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## ace (Jan 26, 2003)

Mc Dojo LoL----------


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## J-kid (Jan 26, 2003)

Hey Jey bell heres a idea.
F off/


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## Shinobi (Jan 26, 2003)

Whoa whoa whoa Judo-KID. Calm down. And try listening to these dudes instead of acting like you're the be all end all of the Arts.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2003)

First, Some facts:

A true warrior will know the facts before charging stupidly into combat in ignorance.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm


> Shinto beliefs:
> Shinto creation stories tell of the history and lives of the "Kami" (deities). Among them was a divine couple, Izanagi-no-mikoto and Izanami-no-mikoto, who gave birth to the Japanese islands. Their children became the deities of the various Japanese clans. Amaterasu Omikami (Sun Goddess) was one of their daughters. She is the ancestress of the Imperial Family and is regarded as the chief deity. Her shrine is at Ise. Her descendants unified the country. Her brother, Susano came down from heaven and roamed throughout the earth. He is famous for killing a great evil serpent.
> The Kami are the Shinto deities. The word "Kami" is generally translated "god" or "gods." However, the Kami bear little resemblance to the gods of monotheistic religions.  There are no concepts which compare to the Christian beliefs in the wrath of God, his omnipotence and omni-presence, or the separation of God from humanity due to sin. There are numerous other deities who are conceptualized in many forms:  Those related to natural objects and creatures, from "food to rivers to rocks." 2
> Guardian Kami of particular areas and clans
> ...


There is much more info there.

Additional Information on Japanese religious beliefs can be found at :
http://www.askasia.org/teachers/Instructional_Resources/Materials/Readings/Japan/R_japan_38.htm



Secondly Judo Kid, I would strongly suggest a more respectful attitude in the future, and more appropriately, an immediate apology to Mr. Bell.


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## Master of Blades (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Hey Jey bell heres a idea.
> F off/ *



Or at least spell his name right....:shrug:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Or at least spell his name right....:shrug: *




:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 
That might be one of the funniest things you've said.


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## Master of Blades (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> That might be one of the funniest things you've said. *



Hmmmmm........Out of the long list you mean


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2003)

One additional point about having your facts straight....
In my seach for information on Shinto, I found THREE! links that also mentioned Judo.  The exact search terms were "Shinto Influence" Judo

1 was in a language I cant read, the other 2 did not in fact connect the 2 terms directly.

So, out of several million webpages, no one has mentioned this 'fact'.

Please, when making statements such as 


> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> I dont know about you guys but i dont shake hands with objects that arnt alive, (see shinto relegion) in the shinto relegion they believe they must show respect to items that have no life in them, Give them a spirital meaning. That is why Alot of judo is part of the shinto relegion and there is lots of other proof you can ask alot of judo masters they will say that shinto has some ground work in Judo/Jujutsu.


 You better be willing to back it up with verifiable proof.    What, you think the Shinto rituals are "Ring Bell, Pet Desk, Randori?" 

So, please, where is all this 'lots of proof'?


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## Matt Stone (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *So, please, where is all this 'lots of proof'? *



Y'know, it's funny.  I have been doing online forums for maybe two years now, and martial arts in real life since 1986.  It never fails to amaze me how the same kinds of situations present themselves over and over and over again...

One of these is the "highly informed student."  We all know the guy - young, highly motivated, trains day and night, lives, eats and breathes MA.  Somehow, though, it has been the rare occurence where that person really knew what they were talking about from an academic standpoint.

Judo-kid is young.  We have driven that point right through the head of the dead horse.   I have gone to bat on his behalf, as have several others, trying to remind folks that a) we were like him once, and b) with luck he will learn, grow and mature.

Where is the "lots of proof?"  Nowhere.  It was a general statement provided as an example of authoritative knowledge that was called out and shown to be hollow.  Regrettably, Judo-kid has only the information provided to him by his teachers to go on.  Offers have been made for him to expand his knowledge base, but those offers have been left on the side of the road.

We all know better than to fall for generalized statements.  I have been trying to monitor what threads I respond to, and how I respond to them, to keep myself from falling into the traps out there.  Not going to participate in the nonsensical stuff any longer.

*Judo-kid* - you know where to find me if you ever want to see what Yiliquan is like.  You are welcome any time, but this will be the last time I offer...  The ball is in your court.  If you take the offer, great.  If not, it won't impact _my_ training a bit.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Judo-kid - you know where to find me if you ever want to see what Yiliquan is like.  You are welcome any time, but this will be the last time I offer...  The ball is in your court.  If you take the offer, great.  If not, it won't impact my training a bit.
> *



I don't want to sound like I'm attacking him, but I sincerely think
Judo-Kid is afraid to show up, afraid of a butt whooping.  Just my
own personal opinion.  Maybe just a wee bit of assurance on your
part could help?  Just a suggestion, you haven't come across as
threatening IMO, but maybe he took it that way?


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## Matt Stone (Jan 26, 2003)

I think I said, very directly, that Judo-kid is going to see how we do things, _not_ to be a human punching bag just for our amusement.  We reserve that privelige for our students... 

He states a level of disrespect for the efficacy of TMA.  Fine.  I theorize his disrespect stems from a lack of experience with legitimate traditional training.  All I want him to do is to observe how TMA are trained (at least how ours is trained), how the techniques work, and why he should at least not wholly discredit TMA based on the comments and opinions of others.

If he wants to mix it up and "spar," fine.  We will play nice, since he is still a minor and I don't want his parents coming after me in court.  If he makes an a$$ out of himself and tries to do more than "play" in a cooperative manner, attempting to goad us into a rougher response, I will simply ask him to leave.  Not because I fear him, but because I have no desire to be the victim of a lawsuit.

It is an educational opportunity, not a challenge match.  His for the taking.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## white belt (Jan 26, 2003)

I believe the finest Martial Art to MASTER is DIPLOMACY.  All of the people who involved themselves in this thread exhibited varying degrees of expertise toward this goal.  To win a battle without raising a hand is the finest skill.  A part of "Mastering the Self".  Recall the scene in "Enter the Dragon" where Bruce Lee was challenged on the boat ride over to Ohara's island.  The challenger was left to drift in a lifeboat.  No "physical" blows were struck.

white belt


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## Kirk (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I think I said, very directly, that Judo-kid is going to see how we do things, not to be a human punching bag just for our amusement.
> 
> He states a level of disrespect for the efficacy of TMA.  Fine.  I theorize his disrespect stems from a lack of experience with legitimate traditional training.  All I want him to do is to observe how TMA are trained (at least how ours is trained), how the techniques work, and why he should at least not wholly discredit TMA based on the comments and opinions of others.
> ...



I agree that this is the message you've been conveying, but the
WAY he's been revealing his reluctance seems odd to me.  Like
he just doesn't get the message.


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## white belt (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *I believe the finest Martial Art to MASTER is DIPLOMACY.  All of the people who involved themselves in this thread exhibited varying degrees of expertise toward this goal.  To win a battle without raising a hand is the finest skill.  A part of "Mastering the Self".  Recall the scene in "Enter the Dragon" where Bruce Lee was challenged on the boat ride over to Ohara's island.  The challenger was left to drift in a lifeboat.  No "physical" blows were struck.
> 
> white belt *



Sorry, meant to post this on the "Arts I'd like to Master" thread.  JK can really throw major tangents!

white belt


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## Matt Stone (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I agree that this is the message you've been conveying, but the
> WAY he's been revealing his reluctance seems odd to me.  Like
> he just doesn't get the message. *



Not really...  That reluctance is what happens when you make an a$$ of yourself publicly and you lack the stones to admit it publicly.

He spoke too soon, didn't think somebody in his backyard was going to offer to take him in and help him on his quest...  Now he is stuck between the rock and the hard place - what to do, what to do???

In all fairness, he claimed he had some tournament things upcoming that he was preparing for/attending.  If that is true, that is a satisfactory excuse for not taking us up on our offer.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 26, 2003)

Like i said i am not afraid to go, Give it 2 - 3 weeks. 
I still have some more boxing Tournments need to prepare for and submission wrestling to get ready for.

I did just win state in Judo,1st place.

Funny what people are saying about me,  Makes me laugh.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin _
> *Yup, you are correct Sir! Whether their belt is faded or not should not been used are the sole criterion to determine an instructor's worth... :asian: *


I never said it was the sole criterion, but it would be a major plus on experience.  Like at a training camp, I wouldn't want it to be run by all 20 year old's who compete.  There has to be a combination of people in their physical prime and people in their mental prime.  Not just one or the other.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinobi _
> *I've ran into McDojo's. One for instance was a TKD one. I wasn't allowed to meet the Grandmaster, who's supposedly the highest ranking 9th Dan in the World. Went in, took a 15 minute class(WOW!), whipped into the office. $1000 up front for 1 year contract. 2 year contract and guaranteed a BB. He kept selling and selling, telling me how effective TKD is, how it's the best, yadda yadda. I told him I was allready orange Belt prior to moving, showed credentals, wouldn't lemme keep Rank. Says if I attend every Class within 2 months i'll have earned an organe anyways. Attend 2 Classes a day for a year and i'll make BB. Whatever, so I left.
> 
> 
> Next one was MMA. Called them up, 1 year contract, $100 a month to train with undefeated World Champs in over 200 fights. Gave them my background, they said come on and spar and get my *** kicked to see a "REAL" Art. I laughed and said "Idle threats and big ego's come from small minds." and hung up. *


LOL!

I don't know a single undefeated world champ, every champ has been defeated at some point or another if they had over 200 fights.  That's just how things work in competition.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Like i said i am not afraid to go, Give it 2 - 3 weeks.
> I still have some more boxing Tournments need to prepare for and submission wrestling to get ready for.
> 
> ...


What tournament was this?  I lived in Washington for decades and haven't heard of a state-wide judo championship.  What was the name of the tournament?  What weight class?

State championships means it has to be open to everyone in the state, but most MA competitions aren't like that but only open to a select schools/clubs.  For instnace, WIAA-sponsered sports are open to everyone (who qualify as in health and academic requirements), from home-schooled to private to public to anyone your age.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 26, 2003)

Was the tournament in Puyallup?


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## Matt Stone (Jan 26, 2003)

I have been trying to keep my eyes open for tournaments up in this area, but I haven't heard of anything at all besides the one held down in Lacey last weekend (but I was at Pavel Tsatsouline's seminar, so I didn't go).

I am halfway considering ISKA competition, since I can't find anything else.  I did AAU for several years in the early 90s, as well as local tournaments before that, but I haven't competed since 1992 I think...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Jan 26, 2003)

Results of the tournament:
Number of participants:
Anything on the tournament other than where to contact the person who organizes it:


Nowhere to be found


 Sure sounds like a tournament all right.  In Washington, wrestling, judo, and jujitsu are very big and things get a lot of publicity from the Seattle Times, the Columbian, the Tri-City Herald, nothing.  Not a single blurb.

DO YOU KNOW WHY?

THE TOURNAMENT DID NOT EVEN START YET, IT STARTS IN FEB. 8!

So how could you have just won 1st place in state?  And still, the tournament is not a very big one with not even 500 people in the first round.


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## Shinobi (Jan 26, 2003)

LOL dude....he did. It was the Ashida Kim Open. You are not tough enough so you wasn't informed. But Judo over there was tossing everyone around like pillows.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 26, 2003)

I looked around again, there is only one tournament that even has anything to do with calling itself a "state" tournament, and it didn't even start yet.  So what exactly is this state tournament?  I may be mistaken, but for a tournament to even call itself a state tournament rightfully is a very hard thing to do, there is a lot of things you have to organize.  I know from experience.  Try organizing just a county tournament.

And judo-kid, your "knowledge" of Shintoism is even more shocking than your "knowledge" of martial arts.  And what's better, you didn't back up any of your claims on Shintoism or your claims on the MA.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 26, 2003)

*Martial Artist* - Are you in WA state?  When I lived in Nebraska, we had the Nebraska State Games which hosted all kinds of sporting events, to include martial arts.  Since you have lived in WA for a long time, at least in the past, do you know if WA has anything similar to that?


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## J-kid (Jan 27, 2003)

It was yesterday, I won first place i droped 5 pounds and fought in 150-160wt class, I forget who was running it USJI (i think)


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## J-kid (Jan 27, 2003)

It was In pullpye (Errr SPELLINg)

at a Native American Looking High school.


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## J-kid (Jan 27, 2003)

Puyallup


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## Nightingale (Jan 27, 2003)

http://www.judonorthwest.com/html/tournaments.html

you all need to give JudoKid the benefit of the doubt.  Young doesn't always equal stupid. His story checks out...

January 25th, Puyallup, Washington State Judo Championships.

MartialArtist, I think you owe JK an apology.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Martial Artist - Are you in WA state?  When I lived in Nebraska, we had the Nebraska State Games which hosted all kinds of sporting events, to include martial arts.  Since you have lived in WA for a long time, at least in the past, do you know if WA has anything similar to that? *


Not in WA state right now.

But I did live in WA for a long time.  There is no state organizations that I'm aware of, if you look at the tournament listings, all are organized by a person, a school, or a group of schools.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 27, 2003)

http://www.judobc.ca/documents/tournaments.pdf

Feb. 8

What is this?  A state tournament two months in a row?

And almost every tournament at the STATE level for WA is at the Tacoma Dome.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinobi _
> *LOL dude....he did. It was the Ashida Kim Open. You are not tough enough so you wasn't informed. But Judo over there was tossing everyone around like pillows. *


No, that was not the name of the tournament according to the links


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## MartialArtist (Jan 27, 2003)

Correction:

Every WIAA sport is at the Tacoma Dome.  Yiliquan, what was that name of the stadium where they have boxing and muay thai matches?


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *http://www.judonorthwest.com/html/tournaments.html
> 
> you all need to give JudoKid the benefit of the doubt.  Young doesn't always equal stupid. His story checks out...
> ...



Okay, I'll jump on the band wagon, so there was a tourney. Where are the results.Give me names, names, names...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 27, 2003)

The site looks to be an event or 2 behind in updating their results.  Heck, its only been a few days (weekend days).  Give it a bit of time.

Ease up on JK a bit.   As I said in another thread, he doesn't have to answer if he doesn't want to.

The other side of that is though, when you make claims, you better have your information straight, because you will be challenged somewhere.

The only doubt I would have is he claims to have won, but doesn't know where, or for who.  Makes it hard to keep the resume straight.  On the other hand, thats why they make paper lists, to keep info straight that'll get jumbled with the rest from all those head shots we take.


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## Master of Blades (Jan 27, 2003)

So Im confused.........Did he have a tournament or not?  

And Kaith.......I agree with you, he DOESNT have to answer. BUT it is common Courtesy to answer them. Mostly everybody on this board has answered his questions and simpithised with him but there is only so much you can do. He keeps saying things that bring up those questions BUT then doesnt answer them. I find that just plain rude....specially as everyone trys hard to make him see some sense only to find themselves blocked out and un-answered. I'm just getting slightly pissed off and the only people I sympathise for are the ones who reply to his posts.....:shrug:

I also disagree with Martial Artist having to apoligise. He was just challenging someone who made a claim with no reply or proof to it. Only afterwards did some people come up with links that still havnt proved anything! Sorry but I just disagree completly.

I apoligise if I came across rude in any way.....But I'm getting bored of these pointless arguments and challenges. :shrug:


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _.......and when would it be necessary to fight with untrained fighters?...



When you are confronted by a criminal or a hothead, do you ask him if he is trained or untrained first?


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _.......But I'm getting bored of these pointless arguments and challenges.



What really bores me is when people fill up all the threads with idle chitchat that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, that only concerns 2 people, which no one else cares.

And what also bore me are posts that look like they are written by kindergarteners.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *What really bores me is when people fill up all the threads with idle chitchat that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, that only concerns 2 people, which no one else cares.
> 
> And what also bore me are posts that look like they are written by kindergarteners. *



I hope that last paragraph was meant to be humorous, given the way in which the entire post was written...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 27, 2003)

I am talking about the usage of proper grammar and correct spelling.


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## fissure (Jan 27, 2003)

Not that Yiliquan1 needs my help, but..


> I am talking about the usage of proper grammar and correct spelling





> What really bores me is when people fill up all the threads with idle chitchat that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, that only concerns 2 people, which no one else cares.


Would that include run-on sentences?


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## fissure (Jan 27, 2003)

In regard too Judo tournaments - As an Olympic sport there must be a single governing body that oversees the qualification process for prospective team members.
In TKD the USTU is the only org. that is recognized by the IOC to field an Olympic team. It (the USTU) sanctions state championships, with medalists becoming eligible for National competition. At this point the medalists from Nationals then go on to team trials.
Is there a similar "main" governing body for Judo? Often small TKD org. will hold "state" championships, that are open only to a small group of friendly (to the person holding the event) schools. Obviously, a "state champ" in one of these type events doesn't hold much water within the TKD world. I assume (always risky!) that similar situations arise in other MAs- Judo among them. As such, which of the previous situation does JudoKid's tournament fall under? I mean no disrespect, I'm simply trying to gage the level at which he is competing.Either way, good job on your results JK.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 27, 2003)

I was making a clarification of my previous post, which I believe, was misconstrued as making reference to the content of posts.  

I do believe my posts would serve a purpose if they help to reduce irrelevant materials from spilling over from the Locker Room section into this section.  But, that remains to be seen. We can only hope.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> *In regard too Judo tournaments - As an Olympic sport there must be a single governing body that oversees the qualification process for prospective team members.
> In TKD the USTU is the only org. that is recognized by the IOC to field an Olympic team. It (the USTU) sanctions state championships, with medalists becoming eligible for National competition. At this point the medalists from Nationals then go on to team trials.
> Is there a similar "main" governing body for Judo? Often small TKD org. will hold "state" championships, that are open only to a small group of friendly (to the person holding the event) schools. Obviously, a "state champ" in one of these type events doesn't hold much water within the TKD world. I assume (always risky!) that similar situations arise in other MAs- Judo among them. As such, which of the previous situation does JudoKid's tournament fall under? I mean no disrespect, I'm simply trying to gage the level at which he is competing.Either way, good job on your results JK. *


Yeah, Judo Kid probably did compete.

But to call yourself a state champion beacuse you won that tournament is laughable.  The tournament can call itself a "state" tournament but you described it well.

What gives everything away is that there is a WA State tournament every few weeks, hosted by the same person.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 27, 2003)

I remember, once upon a time, competing in the Amateur Athletic Union Chinese Martial Arts Division regional and national tournaments...

I did pretty well, I suppose.  I won first and second place in forms and sparring at both levels, racking up 8 Regional Champion and 5 National Champion titles, to include the "all around" Championship title one year...  

Sounds pretty impressive, huh?

Trouble was, there were usually only 1 - 3 other people in my competition group.  So I guess Champion of the Region or Champion of the Nation are pretty relative titles when you break them down...

All a tournament win means is that on that day, at that time, at that moment, against that person, you won.  Change one thing, and you could have lost (and lost miserably, at that).

I like tournaments.  But when I was a kid, I liked to play tag, hide and go seek, and other _games_ too...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Jan 27, 2003)

I remember wrestling.  People would argue all over in the newspapers saying this kid will beat this kid and all that.  They would RATE the kids and try to explain why this kid is sooooo much better than the other kid.  Turns out, the winner was a lot of the time an unknown kid.  Appeared out of nowhere.  Beat the previous state champion and stripped away his title his senior year.

One day, the champion might pin the guy in the first round or tech-fall the guy.  But I've seen second-year wrestlers who would beat them the next time.  In their next meeting, the state champ beats him.  Then the unknown kid beats him.

What's even stranger is the rock-paper-scissors thing that happens a lot in wrestling.  One kid might be able to beat this kid, while lose to the other kid, but the kid he beat pinned the guy he lost to.  That's why you can't tell who'll win by saying, "I beat this kid and that kid beat the kid I'm facing".  Actually, you can't even say anything.  A 16-0 wrestler got pinned by a 0-9 Freshman wrestler.  The 16-0 wrestler was winning 11-1 by the end of the first round.  He was toying with the freshman.  The 16-0 senior gets lazy and gets throw in a head-and-arm and gets pinned.

At state championships, it's all relative.  That's why I won't call ANYONE a state, national, or world champion unless they are from a reputable tournament, sponsered by a well-known organization.  The tournament judo-kid went to wasn't a state tournament IMO, it just called itself that.  Yeah, it's held in the state, but my definition of a state tournament is everyone in the state has the chance to go, and everyone knows about the event, and it has to be well-known and well-supported.  The organizer of the state tournament hosts a "state" tournament what, ever other month?  Just because it's held in WA state doesn't make it the state championships.  If somebody goes to what a tournament organized by a man nobody has heard of and calls itself a national tournament, I'll say he's crazy.  If a guy competes in it and says he's the national tournament winner, he's crazy.  If it was a big event, then yes.  For world, if he competed in the Goodwill Games or the Olympics, that's something.

It's the same in wrestling, there was a tournament called the Pac-Coast.  It should mean the Pacific West Coast.  However, not every school was invited.  Although a school came from every Pacific state along with Idaho, and there were hundreds of wrestlers, it would be wrong for the winner of one weight class to call himself the best wrestler in the Pacific West.

Not everyone can go to the state tournament, but everyone has a chance to go.  To get to state, you have to win districts and if you place well in that, you get to go on to regionals.  Then you go to state.  And there are thousands of wrestlers that go to districts, but very few of them get to state.  EVERY WRESTLER IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON KNOWS ABOUT IT, THE PRESS KNOWS ABOUT IT, THERE IS A LOT OF BUZZ ON IT.  Held in the Tacoma Dome, music is blared out like the Tyson-Lewis match.  Everyone is pumped.  Thousands of people come and watch.  That's a state championship.

Have you ever been to a boxing, muay thai, wrestling, TKD, MMA (UFC, Pride), karate, or etc. STATE, NATIONAL, etc. or even regional championship where the press wasn't over it, was held in a high school, and had no more than 200 people in the seats/stands?

Or even take other sports.  My nephew's high school team got 3rd in state in football for 3A.  I flew over to WA during Thanksgiving DAy, they were practicing.  I stayed to see the Friday game.  It wasn't even the semi-finals, yet, the Tacoma Dome was packed.  And the Tacoma Dome holds thousands of people.

Granted football is specated by lots of people, but you would expect a sell-out for the state championships, not for a quarter-final.


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## J-kid (Jan 28, 2003)

Its only once a year?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm not finding too much info folks, however....

USJI 
January 25
 Washington State Championships, Puyallup, WA
 Jim Viloria, 360-620-9330

Though the link on the site to USJI membership form goes to the USJF site.

The USJF site Has no events listed for January, however it looks like they only list future events, not past.

They claim to have been around since 1952.


Based on the info there, and his past statements, I don't see him in the wrong here.  If someone in the Washington area wants to make a phonecall and ask Jim Viloria for more info, please do so.

Basically, 'what organization sanctioned the event' and 'who won'.  I think JK listed his division back there somewhere.


Then, maybe we can put this issue to bed, and get back to the topic of this thread?


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## kajupaul (May 4, 2004)

J KID.try to respect other martial artists.you have labled yourself as a martial artist,so please try to act like one.I know how its done on bullshido.you go to other boards talk crap then go back and brag about it.
                                                           thank you


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## Marginal (May 4, 2004)

Perhaps, but this thread's months old, and J-Kid's been mellow around MT for a long time...

(But then, I'm still wonderig who sits around claiming "Yeah. I do train at a McDojo. I just like pissing away $250 a month on uselessness...")


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## kajupaul (May 5, 2004)

sorry,i am new here.just reading through and found the bragging repulsive.Its a trait of bullshido i guess.


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## sadantkd (Apr 12, 2009)

J-kid said:


> Hey Jey bell heres a idea.
> F off/


 
Yeah, clearly, these are the words of someone who's religion won't let them bow to the mat.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 12, 2009)

The thread's almost five years stale. He can't hear you.


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## sadantkd (Apr 12, 2009)

Yeah, I noticed that later on.  I just think outloud sometimes, I guess.


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