# Questions about Balintawak



## Red Blade (Mar 20, 2004)

This will be a series of questions to verify so of the intel that I have heard. I will start with one for now.

Why is the art called Balintawak?


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 20, 2004)

Because the shop that housed the training area was on Balintawak Street, Hence the Balinkawak Eskrima Club. Eventually it bacame the name of the style of fighting taught by GM Bacon. 

Tim Kashino


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## lifewise (Mar 20, 2004)

Can someone (won't mention any names here) provide more information on what is involved in Balintawak?  :asian:


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## f.m.a.c.student (Mar 20, 2004)

Balintawak teaches stick fighters to fight to fight other stick fighters. there is alot of foot work, timing, weight transfer,positioning of your body,balance.
I not sure that I understand your question?


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## bart (Mar 20, 2004)

lifewise said:
			
		

> Can someone (won't mention any names here) provide more information on what is involved in Balintawak?  :asian:



Originally Balintawak was taught as a single stick only art. Some lineages have begun to include other types of attacks and double stick or stick and dagger techniques to their training. Most often this is to facilitate learning to defend against the those type of attacks. Some lineages also teach empty hands. There is an empty hand style distinctly derived from GM Anciong Bacon's Balintawak I believe called Tat Kan Tao, but I may be mistaken.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 21, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> There is an empty hand style distinctly derived from GM Anciong Bacon's Balintawak I believe called Tat Kan Tao, but I may be mistaken.



That was a Kung Fu style taught by Jogo sp. One on Bacon's students. It may have been influenced by Balintawak, but wasn't derived from it.
 :asian:


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 21, 2004)

http://balintawak-arnis.com/ _(Bobby Taboada's Balintawak Arnis Cuentada)_


http://johnvillasin.8k.com/index.html _(Jose Villasin's Balintawak International)_



http://maranga.8m.com/ _(Timoteo Maranga's Combat Eskrima Maranga)_


http://balintawak.4t.com/index.html _(Sergio Arcel's Balintawak Eskrima Club)_



http://www.balintawak.com/ _(Crispulo Atillo's Balintawak)_


http://www.necopa.de/ _(Arnulfo Mongcal's NECOPA)_


http://www.balintawakeskrima.faithweb.com/new_page_1.htm _(Sam Buot, Balintawak International)_



http://www.islandnet.com/%7Egmzimmer/balintaw.htm _(Dom Lopez's Villasin Balintawak Eskrima)_



http://balintawak.s5.com/home.html _(Bobby Tabimina's Balintawak Arnis)_



http://www.visayanmartialarts.com/ _(Henry Jayme's Visayan Martial Arts)_


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 21, 2004)

I was in the same boat you're in now, Red Blade.  I began training in Balintawak a few weeks ago.  Here's the information I've learned thus far:


Balintawak was formed in the early 1950s in Cebu City.

The name of the club was taken from Balintawak Street in downtown Cebu City.

The two original Masters were *Anciong Bacon* and Jesus Cui, both former Doce Pares originals.

The original 1950s students included *Timoteo Maranga*, Vincente Atillo, Eduardo Baculi, Arnulfo Mongcal, Delfin Lopez, Andres Olaibar?, and others.

Later students include, *Ising Atillo*, *Jose Villasin*, *Ted Buot*, *Teofilo Velez*, Tinong Ybanez?, Sergio Arcel?, Jogo Milan?, and others. (the ones with question marks still need to be verified whether they were original or later students of Anciong Bacon)

Late 1960s or early 1970s, Anciong Bacon was sent to prison for murder.

During Anciong Bacon's absence, Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez formed a splinter group and named it "Balintawak International" in the 1970s. Dom Lopez and Sam Buot come from this group.

In the early 1980s, Teofilo Velez formed his own group and called it "Teovel Balintawak".  Key persons in this group are Teofilo Velez's three sons, Chito, Eddie, and Monie Velez, *Bobby Taboada*, Romeo de la Rosa, Nene Gaabucayan, *Nick Elizar*, and other lesser known ones.

Timoteo Maranga formed his own group and called it "Tres Personas". His son *Rodrigo Maranga* renamed it "Combat Eskrima Maranga".

Those who did not form their own clubs, fall under the "Balintawak Original" group.  Ted Buot and *Arturo Sanchez* belong to this group.

Ising Atillo also formed his own group and called it "Atillo Balintawak".

*Bobby Tabimina* played a crucial role in the early parole of Anciong Bacon. He trained with Jose Villasin, Teofilo Velez, and Timoteo Maranga. He received further training from Bacon.  His group is called "Tabimina Balintawak".

that's the summary.


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## bart (Mar 21, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> That was a Kung Fu style taught by Jogo sp. One on Bacon's students. It may have been influenced by Balintawak, but wasn't derived from it.
> :asian:



I found my info on this site:Visayan Martial Arts. Perhaps it was simply "heavily influenced".


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## Red Blade (Mar 21, 2004)

Question 2.

Who was the Founder of Balintawak?


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## bart (Mar 21, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> Question 2.
> 
> Who was the Founder of Balintawak?




Venancio "Anciong" Bacon.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 21, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> Venancio "Anciong" Bacon.



I agree. :asian:


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 21, 2004)

the two original Masters in Balintawak were Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui, both left Doce Pares.

this was Anciong Bacon's art, the single stick, vertical defense. Because he was tiny, and had less muscle mass, he ended up concentrating in "reading" his opponents movements, mastered non-telegraphic blows, and because of his height, perfected the inside range in fighting.

so, yes, Balintawak is Anciong Bacon's art. his main teacher was Lorenzo Saavedra, the uncle of Doring Saavedra, Doce Pares' "go to" fighter prior to WWII.



here's a 1950s photo. the three attorneys in the middle sitting are flanked by Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui.  to Anciong Bacon's right is Delfin Lopez.  standing in the opposite end are Vincente Atillo and Timoteo Maranga. in the middle of this same row is Arnulfo Mongcal.  standing behind Atillo and Maranga is Eduardo Baculi.

(all the info came out of this forum)




http://cebueskrima.s5.com/images/groupweb.jpg​


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 21, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> the two original Masters in Balintawak were Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui, both left Doce Pares.
> 
> this was Anciong Bacon's art, the single stick, vertical defense. Because he was tiny, and had less muscle mass, he ended up concentrating in "reading" his opponents movements, mastered non-telegraphic blows, and because of his height, perfected the inside range in fighting.
> 
> ...


 
Joe,

No Disresepct meant. Just a little curious. This is twice you have stated the Jesus Cui was one of two founding Master members of Balintawak.  I am in no way throwing mudd on to Jesus Cui's character or skills. I do not doubt his skills or that he was their at the beginning.

I thought Balintawak's origin per se with Anciong Bacon, was due to the fact that he would poke/stab people with his wodden training knife while training with the Saavedra's and the Doces Pares. His training Knife was taken away and he then applied his techniques with the single stick mentality, versus the Stick and Dagger mentality. This opened up the empty hand to Manage, Moniter and Delay the opponents cane. 

1) Did the same thing happen to Jesus Cui? Was his dagger taken from him by the Saavedra's?

2) Did Jesus Cui leave the Doces Pares as a good friend of Anciong Bacon's and in support of Anciong Bacons desire to teach his art?

3) 

a) Was Jesus Cui the training partner and learning partner for/with Anciong Bacon? 

b) i.e.  While in the Doces Pares he, Jesus Cui, trained separately with Anciong Bacon just with the single stick, to refine and improve their technique?

4) Given either 3 a or b above, then does it not mean that the first student of Anciong Bacon to master Balintawak was Jesus Cui? And he, Jesus Cui, happened to be like I said a skilled Doces Pares practitioner that changed his study to that of what Anciong Bacon was teaching or working on?

Like I said, I do not discount the man's skill. I was just curious as to why you list him as the two original master's of Balintawak.

Thank You
:asian:


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 21, 2004)

hey, rich... no disrespect taken.

i'm using the title "master" similar to a 'master' painter, 'master' woodcarver, 'master' electrician, 'master' sculpture, etc. etc.

i'm sure that anciong bacon was the better fighter and teacher of the two, this is why balintawak is synonymous to bacon's name. but this is a huge presumption on my part, to further presume on this subject would be really unfair to both men since they have already passed.

both though, were recognized masters from doce pares, both left to form balintawak. so, both were already masters when they left doce pares to form balintawak... hence the 'two *original* MASTERS of Balintawak' phrase.

_this was Anciong Bacon's art, the single stick, vertical defense. Because he was tiny, and had less muscle mass, he ended up concentrating in "reading" his opponents movements, mastered non-telegraphic blows, and because of his height, perfected the inside range in fighting._

(p.s.-- i was told that much of the judo like techniques, and knife defenses of balintawak came from jesus cui)


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 21, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> hey, rich... no disrespect taken.
> 
> i'm using the title "master" similar to a 'master' painter, 'master' woodcarver, 'master' electrician, 'master' sculpture, etc. etc.
> 
> ...


Joe,

I take no exception to the term master. I was only looking for clarification on your resources or thought processes. And you provided that. 

Thank You.


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## Wingman (Mar 21, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> That was a Kung Fu style taught by Jogo sp. One on Bacon's students. It may have been influenced by Balintawak, but wasn't derived from it.
> :asian:



Jose Milan Go (Joe Go) originally studied white crane kung fu. He later created his own style of Tat Kune Tao. Tat Kune Tao may have been influenced by Balintawak and other stick fighting arts.


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## lhommedieu (Mar 22, 2004)

> (p.s.-- i was told that much of the judo like techniques, and knife defenses of balintawak came from jesus cui)



My research into the San Miguel Eskrima system of Momoy Canete yeilded the following information about Jesus Cui, which I have placed on my website (http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/):

"He (Momoy) later studied Combat Judo with Jeseus Cui and blended its principles with his eskrima.  Jesus Cui was also versed in espada y daga (Punta y Daga) and Tapi-Tapi.  He is credited with orienting Momoy towards a traditional mid- to long-range style of eskrima, in contrast to the shorter-range styles that were becoming more popular.  His eskrima was sometimes referred to as the "Batangueno" style."

Any additions or corrections are appreciated.

At http://www.krishnagodhania.com/profiles/inting.html, Krishna Godhania writes:

"During the early 1950s, the Doce Pares club was experiencing a difficult period. Personal differences forced one of its original members, Venancio "Ansiong" Bacon, to separate and form his own system  balintawak arnis. With this departure many leading eskrimadors also decided to leave doce pares and follow the venerated Bacon. Among these was the expert knifefighter Jesus Cui."

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Red Blade (Mar 22, 2004)

Question 3

Did GM Bacon name a successor?


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 22, 2004)

I asked the same question awhile back.  My background in the martial arts before Balintawak was in Chinese, Korean, and Japanese martial arts.

When I asked this same question to my teacher, he gave me a long speech about Filipino culture and about how lineage doesn't really play a major role in Filipino martial arts.  That is until recently, when many schools became commercialized, following the East Asian "lineage" paradigm.

The answer, in short, is that Anciong Bacon never officially named a "successor".  Because naming "successors" in Filipino martial arts would have been unheard of in the 1960s and 1970s.

When his students became advance, they themselves began teaching (which is how you evolve as a martial artist in Balintawak, i was told).  Hence, the Villasin, Velez, Tabimina, Atillo, Maranga, Mongcal, etc etc brands of Balintawak, with Ted Buot and Arturo Sanchez preserving Anciong Bacon's teaching methods. Some have different teaching methods, some have included personal touches, but the core of the style is very much taken from Anciong Bacon.  and all loyally credit Anciong Bacon for their style and philosophy.

As far as politics (since it's obvious this is where your line of questioning is leading to), various sub-groups within Balintawak actually get along very well, this is of course with some few individual exceptions due to egos.  Maranga's Combat Eskrima Maranga, Teovel Balintawak Group, Balintawak Original, and others stay in contact with one another, since many of them have known each other since the 60s and 70s in Cebu.

So, in a general way, one can say that Anciong Bacon's successors are his older students, whose names we've already covered, and the newer ones like Bobby Taboada, Bobby Tabimina, and others in the late 60s, and 70s group, whom Anciong Bacon consistently "checked up" on.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

lhommedieu said:
			
		

> My research into the San Miguel Eskrima system of Momoy Canete yeilded the following information about Jesus Cui, which I have placed on my website (http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/):
> 
> "He (Momoy) later studied Combat Judo with Jeseus Cui and blended its principles with his eskrima. Jesus Cui was also versed in espada y daga (Punta y Daga) and Tapi-Tapi. He is credited with orienting Momoy towards a traditional mid- to long-range style of eskrima, in contrast to the shorter-range styles that were becoming more popular. His eskrima was sometimes referred to as the "Batangueno" style."
> 
> ...


Steve,

First thanks for the link back to this forum from your website 

I was not able to find the discusson on  Jesus Cui. Is it possible for you to guide me to which article and or sub page has the post.

Thank You
:asian:


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## lhommedieu (Mar 22, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Steve,
> 
> First thanks for the link back to this forum from your website
> 
> ...



Rich,

The first quote is located on this page:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm

The information about Jesus Cui was based on conversations that Tom Bisio had with Yoling Canete in 1984 (?), as well as personal email correspondence with Ramon Rubia and Steve Drape - and Steve Drapes article on Eskrima in post-1900 Cebu.  It is, admittedly, not a lot - but the focus was supposed to be on teachers that influenced Momoy Canete.  (In that respect, I have always thought that there is a great book or article out there to be written about the Saavedras, if someone had access to information about them.)

A google search for "Jesus Cui" yielded the web page about Inting Carin; I thought it was interesting that Jesus Cui is referred to as an knife expert  (other sources also indicate that he was a Jujustu teacher).

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2004)

lhommedieu said:
			
		

> Rich,
> 
> The first quote is located on this page:
> 
> ...


Thank You Steve.

I have heard the name before and it was always associated with the Combat Judo and also with Doces Pares and Stick and Knife. I could see the extrapolation to Knife only, quite easily. I although had not heard of Jesus Cui as being Balintawak. I am planing on asking my instructor Manong Ted Buot Tomorrow when I see him. 

As I have said before, if you get a chance to train with any of the names form Cebu who were in the Doces Pares or Balintawak or in their own art. You should check it out.

Just my opinion.
:asian:


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 22, 2004)

_"The information about Jesus Cui was based on conversations that Tom Bisio had with Yoling Canete in 1984 (?), as well as personal email correspondence with Ramon Rubia and Steve Drape - and Steve Drapes article on Eskrima in post-1900 Cebu. It is, admittedly, not a lot - but the focus was supposed to be on teachers that influenced Momoy Canete."_

this is going on a tangent, but is this the same tom bisio from pekiti tirsia who defeated a master(?) from doce pares named uy in 1979?  if so, did he train with yoling canete before or after his time with leo gaje? i read this in a forum, but have forgotten which, i'll try to find where i read this in the mean time.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 22, 2004)

I talked to Manong Buot tonight. He informed me that even though Jesus Cui was a close personal friend to Bacon and the Balintawak club, he was not a Balintawak practitioner.


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## Red Blade (Mar 23, 2004)

Question 4

How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix? The following is posted on the net and it seems to conflict with some of the things that I've read.


*Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.*


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 23, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> Question 4





			
				Red Blade said:
			
		

> How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix? The following is posted on the net and it seems to conflict with some of the things that I've read.
> 
> 
> *Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.*




I've already posted this on another thread, but here it is again:

_*http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218*_

It's from the Dog Brothers forum.  A very lively and entertaining discussion, to say the least, about the very question you've just asked.


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## lhommedieu (Mar 23, 2004)

> this is going on a tangent, but is this the same tom bisio from pekiti tirsia who defeated a master(?) from doce pares named uy in 1979?  if so, did he train with yoling canete before or after his time with leo gaje? i read this in a forum, but have forgotten which, i'll try to find where i read this in the mean time.



Tom Bisio shared the co-champion title with Master Uy.  He trained with Momoy Canete on three separate occasions from 1979-1984.  Tom left the Leo Gaje's Pekiti Tirsia organization in the early 1990's.  Up until recently, he has taught Filipino martial arts, Kajukenbo (Emperado method), Xing Yi Quan, and Ba Gua Zhang, in New York, and currently runs an acupuncture clinic that specializes in the treatment of musculoskeletal injuries.  He has a book coming out this fall, from Simon and Schuster, on the treatment of sports injuries from the perspective of Chinese medicine - as well as a couple other books in development.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 23, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> here's a 1950s photo. the three attorneys in the middle sitting are flanked by Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui. to Anciong Bacon's right is Delfin Lopez. standing in the opposite end are Vincente Atillo and Timoteo Maranga. in the middle of this same row is Arnulfo Mongcal. standing behind Atillo and Maranga is Eduardo Baculi.
> 
> (all the info came out of this forum)
> 
> ...


Joe,

Where did the information about Jesus Cui come from for this picture.

Manong Ted Buot who met and knew the gentleman, did not recognize him at all in this picture. Now I agree the print I had may not have been the best. Hence my request for where your data came from?


Also to Jesus Cui issue, Manong Ted informed me tonight that Jesus and Anciong were real close. They would watch the other train but not actually train with each other. When Manong Ted Buot and Jesus Cui were on the floor together it was Jesus trying to show people Combat Judo. Jesus Cui did have some real good Karate and Judo, as well as training in the Doces Pares. The story I was also told included the son of Jesus and that he could break coconuts with his hands and strikes.

Like I said, no disrespect, I am just trying to find the link to Balintawak other than he was a very good friend to GM Anciong Bacon.

Thanks
:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 23, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> I've already posted this on another thread, but here it is again:
> 
> _*http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218*_
> 
> It's from the Dog Brothers forum. A very lively and entertaining discussion, to say the least, about the very question you've just asked.


 
Joe,

I do not know if you were involved in that discussion much or not.

I have a problem with a lot of the information on that thread. 

Yet, it does explain why you once posted Balintawak Arnis. You may have seen it there or been a part of GM Taboada's group that sometimes uses this term. It was and is Eskrima or Escrima, or that is how I have heard the two who trianed there tell me. This is how I have seen it written by many others as well.

As pointed out by Toasty over there, if you read all the different histories and they are all close and have over lapping information then this rings true. If one sticks out like a sore thumb, because of how different it is then, I suspect it.

As I pointed out earlier on this board and others:

Anyone from that linage who trained in Cebu or directly with one of those from there should have skill.

All the problems between Doces Pares and Balintawak were between students not the instructors. Yet in this case with Atillo, I believe the issue now hinges around what he has said and told people. I do not doubt he has faught. I do not doubt he has skill. Yet, I do not like all combat matches (* anymore *). 

A big issue was raised of who had actullly faught with out armor. I think this is smart to do and to learn the hard way that it hurts and it is serious. Try it with someone with a tire iron or a 2X4 or baseball bat or stick who does nto know you and wants to kill or serious hurt you. 

And even then to me it does matter anymore about this. Been there done that. I did not like the police hand cuffs. I did like spending my nights in the hospital (* As the winner, I was conscious most of the others were not. *).  So, I see no personal reason to go out and fight. I will defend myself, and as Rocky put it on another thread, he made himself available, as I did. So, I coudl tell the police i was just standing there when it all went down. Yet what does it mean? Nothing today. That was then. Or that is how i see it for myself. 

Yet, I do find it hard to believe that he wishes to honor his father and Anciong both by using Balintawak and making claims, including beating people he has not faught. And I am not discussing the Anciong Bacon supposed fight or training session either. Why would someone have to say these things to make themselves feel better? Why would they have to say these things to make others feel bad? To make more money? To get more students?

As I stated before, just train, learn from people you can learn from. Investigate and listen to what others have to say.

Sorry for my Rant.
:asian:


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 24, 2004)

jesus cui was mentioned by my teacher as being responsible for the combat judo and knife defenses found in balintawak. this was my first exposure to this name.  i researched in the internet and found more consistent information about jesus cui and balintawak (that he was somehow connected to balintawak during the beginning years of this organization).  i stumbled on the picture above and asked about it.  someone mentioned that the guy sitting opposite of anciong bacon, flanking the three lawyers, was indeed jesus cui. i assumed this was jesus cui.  now, as you have stated, maybe it isn't jesus cui.



_Yet, it does explain why you once posted Balintawak Arnis. You may have seen it there or been a part of GM Taboada's group that sometimes uses this term. It was and is Eskrima or Escrima, or that is how I have heard the two who trianed there tell me. This is how I have seen it written by many others as well._

this part i don't understand at all, what you're trying to say.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 24, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> jesus cui was mentioned by my teacher as being responsible for the combat judo and knife defenses found in balintawak. this was my first exposure to this name. i researched in the internet and found more consistent information about jesus cui and balintawak (that he was somehow connected to balintawak during the beginning years of this organization). i stumbled on the picture above and asked about it. someone mentioned that the guy sitting opposite of anciong bacon, flanking the three lawyers, was indeed jesus cui. i assumed this was jesus cui. now, as you have stated, maybe it isn't jesus cui.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With the exception of GM Taboada's Group which uses Balintawak Arnis or at one Cuentada Balintawak Arnis Escrima or Balintawak Arnis Escrima. GM Taboada did this to show respect to his lineage and also to show it was not 100% the same.  GM Remy Presas and Manong (GM) Ted Buot who both trained at the club on Balintawak street, told me that the art was/is Escrima and the practitioners are Escrimadors.

It was not meant as any type of insult. It was meant to make sure the proper name name was being used. In reference to the Balintawak Street, everone I have personally talked to says Escrima. GM Bobby Taboada has put in Arnis as well. This is his priviledge. GM Remy Presas also called his art Modern Arnis, because he did add many things and changed the teaching method hence his own art.

I know how you present yourself here as someone who tries to get the data correct. I was just pointing out where you could improve to avoid confusion. GM B Taboada's website currently has Baliantawak Arnis Escrima.

:asian:


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## Joe Eccleston (Mar 24, 2004)

oh, sorry... that was my mistake then. i just simply copied the website address which was balintawak-arnis.com, hence the 'bobby taboada's balintawak arnis' title.  i wasn't aware this word carried so much meaning.  my apologies.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 24, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> oh, sorry... that was my mistake then. i just simply copied the website address which was balintawak-arnis.com, hence the 'bobby taboada's balintawak arnis' title. i wasn't aware this word carried so much meaning. my apologies.


No Apologies required.

I just wanted to share theinformation wiht you as you seem to be interested.

You have tried to share infomration wiht me and others here, I thought it was  only fair. :asian: 

Best Regards


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 1, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> Question 4
> How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix? The following is posted on the net and it seems to conflict with some of the things that I've read.
> 
> *Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.*



Sound like someone's *STORY* is a little off. :toilclaw:


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## Joe Eccleston (Apr 1, 2004)

You cannot really blame GM Atillo... The martial arts industry is a very Cut-Throat business.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 1, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> You cannot really blame GM Atillo... The martial arts industry is a very Cut-Throat business.



If his information is wrong then, yes I can blame him!


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## bart (Apr 1, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> *Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.*



I think what he did was credit the art back to one of its ancestors. The Saavedras were among the original players of Doce Pares and Bacon and Vicente Atillo learned from them. Vicente Atillo left Doce Pares with Bacon and was part of what eventually became Balintawak. Vicente Atillo taught Ising Atillo. A lot of credit is given to the Saavedras in the Doce Pares >> Balintawak lineage. Even if it is just for marketing, it holds some water. Also it's very similar to advertisements that a lot of EPAK and Wing Chun derivative  guys do with Ed Parker, Yip Man, and Bruce Lee.


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## Joe Eccleston (Apr 1, 2004)

That point was already brought up in the DogBrothers forum, bart...  the rebuttle for that was that if GM Atillo wanted to credit Saavedra then why not call his art Doce Pares or Saavedra Eskrima?  Also why would one have to claim that he defeated Venancio Bacon to "credit the art back to one of its ancestors".  This has been covered in the DogBrothers forum, if you've read it.  Basically, the discussion stopped at this question: Who lied about the Ising Atillo vs. Anciong Bacon challenge match, GM Atillo himself or his students?

Me, personally, I think the students got a little too eager, but since they took most of the not so accurate contents off their website, there should be no more problem.


----------



## bart (Apr 1, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> That point was already brought up in the DogBrothers forum, bart...  the rebuttle for that was that if GM Atillo wanted to credit Saavedra then why not call his art Doce Pares or Saavedra Eskrima?  Also why would one have to claim that he defeated Venancio Bacon to "credit the art back to one of its ancestors".  This has been covered in the DogBrothers forum, if you've read it.  Basically, the discussion stopped at this question: Who lied about the Ising Atillo vs. Anciong Bacon challenge match, GM Atillo himself or his students?



I read that thread and stayed out of it. Many of the people made their claims on heresay and ultimately it just go too nasty and descended into name calling and challenges etc. I didn't see a contribution to a flame war as productive. 

I should have been more clear, but by credit I did not mean "give credit", I meant "use the credit of". Could it be that he is using both of the names Balintawak and Saavedra to make his style more known and recognizable and to give his art a sense of additional legitimacy? If he claims he defeated the founder of Balintawak, he still is using the name for self aggrandizement. Also regardless of whether credit is being used or given, the fact is there is Saavedra in his lineage from his father and from the Doce Pares that Balintawak emerged from. So although on the surface it is somewhat misleading it is also, albeit in a lesser sense, somewhat true. And I assume that he would stay away from calling his own art Doce Pares because of his duel with Doce Pares GM Cacoy Canete which he did not win.  

I don't mean to defend Atillo, I'm not his student. I'm not his proponent. But regardless of what untruths there are in what he has said, mixed among them there are some true things. He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.


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## Joe Eccleston (Apr 1, 2004)

I agree, bart.  His father's picture, does appear in that old Balintawak photo taken in the 1950s.  As far as I am concerned, the Atillo/Bacon fight has been debunked.  Everything has been cleared up.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 3, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I read that thread and stayed out of it. Many of the people made their claims on heresay and ultimately it just go too nasty and descended into name calling and challenges etc. I didn't see a contribution to a flame war as productive.
> 
> I should have been more clear, but by credit I did not mean "give credit", I meant "use the credit of". Could it be that he is using both of the names Balintawak and Saavedra to make his style more known and recognizable and to give his art a sense of additional legitimacy? If he claims he defeated the founder of Balintawak, he still is using the name for self aggrandizement. Also regardless of whether credit is being used or given, the fact is there is Saavedra in his lineage from his father and from the Doce Pares that Balintawak emerged from. So although on the surface it is somewhat misleading it is also, albeit in a lesser sense, somewhat true. And I assume that he would stay away from calling his own art Doce Pares because of his duel with Doce Pares GM Cacoy Canete which he did not win.
> 
> I don't mean to defend Atillo, I'm not his student. I'm not his proponent. But regardless of what untruths there are in what he has said, mixed among them there are some true things. He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.


 
Bart,

I think I agree with you here .

It is good to give credit to your lineage and those that helped you get where you are. If you do something all by yourself and split away, and you still give credit to where your fundamentals and basics and original instruction came from, I think this is good. Including the use of teh Saavedras.

I do think it is a problem though for someone to use names that are misleading, and are only there for marketing or gathering of students.

Like I said before, Atillo should just teach, and let his stick work and tecniques speak for himself.  Yet this is me.


----------



## Red Blade (Apr 22, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.




I thought I remember reading somewhere that he and/or his father were students of Delphin Lopez. 


?????


----------



## bart (Apr 22, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> I thought I remember reading somewhere that he and/or his father were students of Delphin Lopez.
> ?????



Please excuse me but I'm going to quote myself from earlier in the thread.



			
				bart said:
			
		

> The Saavedras were among the original players of Doce Pares and Bacon and Vicente Atillo learned from them. Vicente Atillo left Doce Pares with Bacon and was part of what eventually became Balintawak. Vicente Atillo taught Ising Atillo. A lot of credit is given to the Saavedras in the Doce Pares >> Balintawak lineage.



I don't know for sure about Vincente Atillo training under Delphin Lopez as a student. I think they were contemporaries at least although I don't know so I'm not sure. As for Ising Atillo, he very well might have been a student of Delphin Lopez at one time or another. I don't know for sure. The thing about these eskrimadors is they train under different people at different times throughout pretty long lives and have direct lineages from different points. But regardless of whether they were students of Delphin Lopez, the lineage to Saavedra is still there as Delphin Lopez has a relationship with Saavedra.


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## loki09789 (Apr 22, 2004)

Red,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk?  I started with Bobby Taboada a while ago, but had to stop for education and deployment reasons.  I know that the majority here are Ted Buot students, but wasn't sure for you since JKD is geographically more common on the west coast and in NYC.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 22, 2004)

> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Quoted the wrong one.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 22, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> But regardless of whether they were students of Delphin Lopez, the lineage to Saavedra is still there as Delphin Lopez has a relationship with Saavedra.




If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.


----------



## bart (Apr 22, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.



Only if you take this as the only statement he's ever made about eskrima. 


Atillo is not a youngster and he's said many things, apparently some true, some false, some in between the two, and sometimes misleading things as well. 

Paul Vunak sites Bruce Lee as a person that he based his fighting philosophy on, but Bruce died a couple years before Paul started training in a JKD curriculum. Is it misleading for him to site Bruce as he does? I don't think so. I credit some of what I teach in my classes as having origin in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze. Am I wrong for not mentioning the professors that introduced me to their writings everytime that I say something about it? I don't think so.  

When Atillo is attributing his stuff to Saavedra, he is citing a reference as a basis for his style. And like most people who are established in an art, he has a lot to draw from, among them apparently Delphin Lopez and others. 

The original question here was the honesty of the statement. The truth is that in his lineage he does have a close and direct lineage to Saavedra through his father alone as well as the many teachers that he's had and come across over the years including Anciong Bacon. So the claim, even though misleading in the marketing ploy, is nonetheless NOT devoid of truth. 

Again, I don't intend to defend Atillo, but what he is saying has truth in it regardless of whether people are rankled by it or not.


----------



## Red Blade (Apr 22, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> Again, I don't intend to defend Atillo, but what he is saying has truth in it regardless of whether people are rankled by it or not.




So does this mean since Datu Hartman was a student of GM Presas he should give credit to the Saavedras?


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## Cruentus (Apr 22, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.



I am going to try not to "slam" anyone here until I have a chance to meet/play with the man or his students myself, or before my Teacher has the chance to meet with him or talk with him face to face (if that ever happends), because until I know all sides outside "internet" stuff, I don't feel that it is my place. So...bare with me here.

It appears that Atillo is attempting to appeal to a higher authority, and that he is not being straight forward about his lineage. In other words, Everyone else who claims Balintawak agrees that Anciong is the top of the family tree for the art. Even though he learned from the Saavadre family, it is clear that his developement was unique enough, in comparison to others from the same lineage, to start his own system. This is evident when you compare Doce Pares to Balintawak; there are as many similarities as differences, and it is clear that the styles are different, even though the lineage of both can be traced to the Saavadre family.

So, every other Balintawak player accept Atillo agree's to be on a similar playing field, in that they all regard Anciong as the top of the family tree. Atillo, it appears, does not want to be on this playing field, so he is attempting to appeal to a "higher authority" then Anciong by acrediting both his father and Saavadre's (Anciongs teacher, ironically) with his instruction. By appealing to this authority, he puts himself on the same tier as Anciong, thus making everyone else who claims Anciong as the top of the family tree "below him." Furthermore, by fabricating the idea that he was able to beat Anciong in a "play" match, he now puts himself above even Anciong himself. 

Now, of course, only his students will buy this premises. Everyone else on the planet see's that there is something fishy going on here, and that the facts aren't matching up.

Now, there are some obvious problems with what has happened here. For one, the biggest problem with this, or ANY kind of posturing with regards to lineage, rank, title, or status, is that NONE OF THESE ARE CONDUSIVE TO SKILL. There is a logical falicy called "argumentum ad verecudiam" which basically means that you appeal to a higher authority to try to determine an arguement, which doesn't make the arguement true. When people try to posture with lineage, rank, or status, then this is exactly what is occuring. In this case, the arguement is, "Atillo's lineage goes beyond Anciong Bacon, so he must be "better" then everyone else under Anciong's lineage!" This would be equally as illogical as me saying, "I can beat up so and so because I have a black belt, and he has a brown belt." The only thing that determines who has more skill is if practioners have the chance to test each others skill out to "prove" who is better, and lineage or rank will not make this any different.

Problem #2 is that a lot of the claims that are being made publically have no actual proof behind them. When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on YOU, not everyone else. If you make a claim, especially if it is a claim that seems very unbelievable, then you have to expect that people want to see proof. If you can't provide proof, then you shouldn't state the claim publically in the first place. So, let's say that I beat Mike Tyson in an arm wrestling match (I didn't, but lets just say). I might tell you this over some beers, where I don't care if you believe it or not. But, I am not going to put it up on a website or on the internet or in my marketing materials unless I can provide evidence that this event really occured (if called on), otherwise I will be called a liar. The point is, when you make a claim that can't be verified, you risk being looked at as a lying. This often causes you to have to try to verify the claim through more shakey evidence, which makes you look worse. Or, some people will resort to outright lying which causes another trap altogether.

Problem #3 Lying breeds more lies. Maybe Atillo decided to inflate a story here or there to market himself. Maybe it was his students. Maybe it was a mixture of both. Maybe stories just got inflated mysteriously by accident. Regardless, the inflation of credability is a lie. And lie's reduce your credability to practically nothing. However, the biggest problem with lies is if and when they are called out, you are now put between a rock and a hard place. You can either admit that you lied, therefore damaging your credability. Or, you can stick to the lie and try to cover it up. The later usually takes even MORE lies and inflated stories to do so. The fish ends up getting so big that no one believes you except your "followers" and your credibility is damaged even more-so then if you would have just admitted to lying in the first place.

So these are the problems that Atillo and his group has. I am not going to sit here and say that he isn't skilled, or that his students aren't skilled. I have never seen them to know one way or the other. I am not here calling Atillo a liar, at least not at this time. I am here to say that Atillo seems to have caught himself between a rock and a hard place. There are claims out there that are "big fish" to the public eye. I am not sure what started it initially, but the irony is that some information started for marketing reasons; information that may not be entirely true, or may be true but unverifiable. This information was challanged, so more and more claims came out, causing a snowball effect. 

Whether deserved or not, the "Fish" is so big now that it has become uncontrolable, and can barely fit in the lake. The majority of the players in FMA circles do not believe Atillo's claims 100%. I am not trying to be a jerk here by saying this, I am just stating the cold hard facts. The irony is that if this "fish" was created for marketing reasons, it has had the opposite effect.

Now, I know I said I wasn't going to "slam" anyone, so please note that this isn't the intent of my post. I did not say Atillo was a bad person, unskilled, or a "liar." But I am stating the cold, hard facts as to how he is percieved, and the dilemma that he has created for himself.

I have done P.R. work before, and I know a fair amount about marketing oneself. I worked with an international Law Firm who had built up a bad reputation, and I helped to reverse the public perception of the firm through client contact, marketing, and advertisements. I would be happy to offer my advice and help as to how to "reverse" this dilemma to Atillo and his students if I ever get the chance to meet them, and if this subject matter is brought up. So, before Atillo's students or anybody else trys to discredit or slam me and my post, I suggest that you realize that I am only stating the facts, and that I am willing to help rather then hurt Atillo and his situation.  

 :asian:


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## bart (Apr 22, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> So does this mean since Datu Hartman was a student of GM Presas he should give credit to the Saavedras?




How did you come up with that? You missed the flow of ideas. 

Bear with me and allow me to create a hypothetical situation. Imagine that Tim begins training a guy named Vinny DeLucia in 1986. For 10 years they train together under Remy, but Tim is no doubt senior to Vinny. Then Vinny's son Tony starts training mainly under Vinny and sometimes with Tim and rarely with Remy. A few years go by and GM Presas passes away and Vinny sticks with Tim. Vinny and Tony keep training for 20 or so years until Tim passes away. 10 years later Vinny passes away and then 10 years later in 2041, Tony DeLucia decides that he wants to have his own organization. In an advertisement he calls his style "DeLucia Modern Arnis based on the teachings of Remy Presas". Is he wrong in making that claim? I don't think so. Is there any truth to it? Yes, there is SOME truth to it. Is it the whole truth, NO. 

To answer your question though, should he give credit to the Saavedras? No, he doesn't have to, but I don't think he could be faulted if he did, because there is some truth to it, especially if Tim studied and worked specifically on things that Remy identified as being taught by the Saavedras and tailored his personal style to fit along those lines. Not that he hasn't, but in the light of that question Tim might want to give credit to the Marangas, Mongcal, Bacon, or some others in the Balintawak group as well as the Saavedras.


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## Red Blade (Apr 22, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> How did you come up with that?



Hartman was a student of Presas.

Presas was a student of Bacon.

Bacon was a student of the Saavedras.


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## Red Blade (Apr 22, 2004)

I understand tracing and giving credit for their roots but, I was of the understanding that Balintawak was related to Doce Pares and not that same art. 

I doesn't make sense to me claiming Balintawak as your art and not giving credit to it's founder. 

*The Saavedras did Doce Pares * and *Bacon did Balintawak.*


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## Red Blade (Apr 22, 2004)

For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.


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## bart (Apr 22, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.



Your profile doesn't say. Where exactly are you?


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## Red Blade (Apr 22, 2004)

Metro Chicago.


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## bart (Apr 22, 2004)

> What we have here is a failure to communicate.
> -Cool Hand Luke






			
				Red Blade said:
			
		

> Hartman was a student of Presas.
> Presas was a student of Bacon.
> Bacon was a student of the Saavedras.



I understood how you got that part. Hartman's link to the Saavedras is there if he wanted to use it. 



			
				Red Blade said:
			
		

> I understand tracing and giving credit for their roots but, I was of the understanding that Balintawak was related to Doce Pares and not that same art.
> I doesn't make sense to me claiming Balintawak as your art and not giving credit to it's founder.



Yes, Balintawak and Doce Pares are related and yes they are not the same. But at one point in time they were. Balintawak grew out of Doce Pares and then became something of its own later on as it developed. Doce Pares and Balintawak were also both originally more clubs than styles and within each there is a great variety of personal expression. In the years since the split, Doce Pares and Balintawak have developed as well and new styles grew, in many different directions, out of both groups.

As for why he would still claim Balintawak, I posted about that earlier and my opinion is still the same.


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## Red Blade (Apr 22, 2004)

Let's try something a little different.

When was Balintawak formed?


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## Cruentus (Apr 22, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> How did you come up with that? You missed the flow of ideas.
> 
> Bear with me and allow me to create a hypothetical situation. Imagine that Tim begins training a guy named Vinny DeLucia in 1986. For 10 years they train together under Remy, but Tim is no doubt senior to Vinny. Then Vinny's son Tony starts training mainly under Vinny and sometimes with Tim and rarely with Remy. A few years go by and GM Presas passes away and Vinny sticks with Tim. Vinny and Tony keep training for 20 or so years until Tim passes away. 10 years later Vinny passes away and then 10 years later in 2041, Tony DeLucia decides that he wants to have his own organization. In an advertisement he calls his style "DeLucia Modern Arnis based on the teachings of Remy Presas". Is he wrong in making that claim? I don't think so. Is there any truth to it? Yes, there is SOME truth to it. Is it the whole truth, NO.
> 
> To answer your question though, should he give credit to the Saavedras? No, he doesn't have to, but I don't think he could be faulted if he did, because there is some truth to it, especially if Tim studied and worked specifically on things that Remy identified as being taught by the Saavedras and tailored his personal style to fit along those lines. Not that he hasn't, but in the light of that question Tim might want to give credit to the Marangas, Mongcal, Bacon, or some others in the Balintawak group as well as the Saavedras.



No offense Bart, but I disagree with your logic here.

For one, he isn't just saying "My system is based off Saavadre's methods," He is bypassing Anciong altogether and saying he learned from Saavadre's himself, and his dad who learned from Saavadre's also. Yet, he is calling his art Balintawak, which is Anciong's art. Also, it is clear that Doce Pares, old and new (as led by Canete family today), is a stick and dagger art, while Balintawak is just stick. Atillo's art is also just stick.

But, hey...WTF? I am starting my own system up tomorrow. I'll call it Modern Arnis, but based off the Saavadre method. Then, the next part of my plan will be to build up storys about how Remy Presas wasn't really my instructor, and that I beat him single cane. No problem...know Why? Because Remy P. trained with Moncol, Maranga, and Anciong, and Anciong trained with Saavadre's.
Sound Stupid? It should. Sounds like I am trying to by-pass the creator of Modern Arnis to make myself more credable? You bet.

Bottom line....the family tree for Balintawak begins with Anciong, not Saavadre. Anciong had formulated his own single stick method, despite who taught him, creating a new art. To claim the man's art but not give him credit is not only illogical, but it's disrespectful to those of us who are alive and studying the art, and to the old mans grave.

I hope I am not being too harsh here, Bart. I understand what you are saying, and I respect your opinion. However, as I said in my last post, this is a case of a "fish" that has gotten too big. We can try to use faulty logic to justify the man (and his students) behavior, or we can be realistic, and try to come up with a solution to the problem.

I am chosing to be realistic. And, I hope, that Atillo and his guys choose to look for solutions to the problem, because false logic won't solve anything.

PAUL


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## loki09789 (Apr 22, 2004)

Red Blade,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?

I started with Bobby Taboada a while ago, but had to stop for education and deployment reasons. I know that the majority here are Ted Buot students, but wasn't sure for you since JKD is geographically more common on the west coast and in NYC.

I did post this before, but I think it got lost in the rapid hits that were going on at the same time.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 23, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> Let's try something a little different.
> 
> When was Balintawak formed?




I think it was 1952 when Bacon formed the system.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 23, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I understood how you got that part. Hartman's link to the Saavedras is there if he wanted to use it.




I think what Red Blade meant was should I call the system Bacon's or Saavadre's Modern Arnis.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 23, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I credit some of what I teach in my classes as having origin in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze. Am I wrong for not mentioning the professors that introduced me to their writings everytime that I say something about it?



There is nothing wrong with this. At the same token you're not claiming that you learned it directly from Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze.  

*If  * Atillo claims the Saavadres as part of his martial art family tree it would be okay.

* If  * he is claiming that he learned Balintawak from them it would be another.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 23, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.



Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school. Last night we talked about the details. Sometime between August 04 - April 05 I will have him at my school. 

This seminar will be open to the public and will be 10am - 5pm on the Saturday and 9:30am - 3:30pm on the Sunday.

*The cost will be:*
One day $80 in Advance
Both days $125 in Advance

No video taping allowed.

As soon as I can work out the details I will have them posted.

artyon:

*P.S. I cleared this with GM Buot before I announced this event! *


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 23, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> Metro Chicago.



This is about an 8 hour drive or a 1 hour flight. Anyone flying in for this event let me know and I'll make arrangements to pick you up at the airport. There are many things to do and see in our area including going to see Niagara Fall.


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## Cruentus (Apr 23, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school. Last night we talked about the details. Sometime between August 04 - April 05 I will have him at my school.
> 
> This seminar will be open to the public and will be 10am - 5pm on the Saturday and 9:30am - 3:30pm on the Sunday.
> 
> ...



Count me in. Regardless of "politics," disagreements, or "past behaviors," I would be happy to meet a senior instructor in the arts! 

 :asian:


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## loki09789 (Apr 23, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> There is nothing wrong with this. At the same token you're not claiming that you learned it directly from Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze.
> 
> *If  * Atillo claims the Saavadres as part of his martial art family tree it would be okay.
> 
> * If  * he is claiming that he learned Balintawak from them it would be another.



I have mentioned Atillo's name to Bobby Taboada before in recent phonecon's and he was nothing but respectful and positive about the man.


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## loki09789 (Apr 23, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> Let's try something a little different.
> 
> When was Balintawak formed?



Joe E. already answered this back on page one of this thread along with a really comprehensive list of websites by Bk Escrima orgs, seems like you could find your own answers from that.

I enjoy discussions, but you mentioned confirming your info/intel.  What is the info you have that you want to compare/contrast?  It might be more effective than drawing it out like this.


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## Red Blade (Apr 24, 2004)

Okay, let's take it from the top.


Question 1 was:
*Why is the art called Balintawak?*

Answer: Name of the street the club was on.


Question 2
*Who was the Founder of Balintawak?*

Answer: Venancio "Anciong" Bacon


Question 3
*Did GM Bacon name a successor?*

Answer: No straight answer.


Question 4
*How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix?*

Answer: No straight answer.


Question 5
*When was Balintawak formed?*

Answer: The early to mid 50's


Do we agree on this so far?


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 24, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> Question 3
> *Did GM Bacon name a successor?*
> Answer: No straight answer.



Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the *ONLY* person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.
 :asian:


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## Joe Eccleston (Apr 24, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the *ONLY* person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.


(as explained to me...)

The word successor doesn't really apply in the Philippines.  This is more a Chinese/Korean/Japanese cultural trait.  This is why no one can trace any FMA system or style prior to the 1900s or late 1890s.  

There's no argument that Ted Buot is a respected Master within Balintawak.  Maybe he was indeed the only instructor allowed to teach for Anciong Bacon when he was in prison, but to say he was the only "Successor" would go against cultural norms in the Philippines.

When Anciong Bacon was paroled, and Ted Buot was leaving for the US, others were already teaching their own version of Balintawak--more popular of these groups were Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez's groups (which trained together in the 70s).  If Anciong Bacon did name a clear "Successor", as in other Asian martial systems, he would have been really pissed off with the other Balintawak instructors teaching Balintawak.

But, this wasn't the case... Ted Buot was already in the US by the late 1970s.  Anciong Bacon was still checking Villasin and Velez's students (as well as others), making sure Balintawak was passed down correctly.  

Anciong Bacon died of poverty in the late 1970s.  He died a poor man.  In the 1970s, before the popularizing of Eskrima and other FMAs, Anciong Bacon was just another eskrimador in the Philippines.  He was passionate about his art, he taught those who were interested, those who mastered his art taught others who were interested, and so on and so forth.  It was as simple as that in the past.  

To open the Pandora's box of Balintawak "SUCCESSORSHIP" (besides missing the whole culture of Balintawak and other FMAs), would only serve to piss on the relationship of the old timers and their art.  This is, of course, is no disrespect to Ted Buot... I'm sure he would agree to what I've just wrote.


----------



## bart (Apr 24, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school...
> *The cost will be:*
> One day $80 in Advance
> Both days $125 in Advance
> *P.S. I cleared this with GM Buot before I announced this event! *



I just can't help but feel that this thread was a veiled attempt at *marketing* disguised as an attempt at honest exploration. Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves. Regardless of what juniors like us may think about what he says and what he does, it's not for us to "put him in his place." We are not his peers and he is to be treated as an elder. He comes from an old eskrimador family and has a lot to offer regardless of stories here and there. 

Joe is right about successorship in the FMA. When GM Bacon got out of jail, the other Balintawak guys recognized him still as the head of their system, but they had already been teaching for a long time and had begun to add their own things to the system. Like it or not, there are many different types of Balintawak, and it would behoove people in the States, just to accept it. Trashing Atillo to his face will close doors for all of us back in the Philippines. Nobody gave permission to GM Bacon to break away from Doce Pares. He didn't need it. Those guys who founded their own systems of Balintawak followed in Bacon's footsteps by doing their own thing. They didn't need to get permission and they kept the name Balintawak not just out of respect for GM Bacon, but because it became something that they made their own. People like Vicente Atillo, Villasin, Velez, etc. are our seniors in the FMA and not our peers. I doesn't matter if we disagree or not with Atillo, he is Vicente Atillo's son and deserves respect simply because of who he is and where he is at in life agewise. Add to that, he fought Cacoy in his prime and others and even though Atillo lost a couple big ones, when "put up or shut up" time came, he "put up." How many of us can say that?


----------



## bart (Apr 24, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Red Blade,
> 
> Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?



Red Blade, what exactly are your intel sources and what is your background in these arts(FMA/JKD)?


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## arnisador (Apr 25, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves.


This has _*always*_ been the case at Mr. Hartman's school.


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## Joe Eccleston (Apr 25, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I just can't help but feel that this thread was a veiled attempt at *marketing* disguised as an attempt at honest exploration.



I agree with bart on this one...  I feel kinda dumb not getting it in time.  Great job, you guys!!! Gives a new meaning to the term McDojo Advertising. Red Blade says "where can I see Atillo perform?"... Renegade, "well it just so happens that I, DATU Tim Hartman, am having GM Atillo over at my school for 125 bucks!!!".  

or maybe, I just feel sore for being caught up in this advertising ploy without any knowledge.  I feel I deserve atleast some sort of commision for providing all that info (I along with others), to make this advertisement work out.  Or atleast an apology...


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## Red Blade (Apr 25, 2004)

Ive taken an interest in Balintawak because of its increased visibility. Ive seen it on the net and in the magazines for a while. Im seeing more and more people getting involved and I thought I might try it also.

What I seen over the last couple years is bickering over the facts on GM Atillos site, the dog brothers site and on e-digest. Ive been a member of MT since 2001 and Ive seen many debates. Over all I feel that most threads are handled in a mature manner. I thought that I could get as many facts as I could before I start training. 

I have collected information on GM Buot & GM Taboada, but I have very little verified intel on Atillo. If I going to make an educated decision on who to train with I need to get all the facts that I can.


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## Joe Eccleston (Apr 25, 2004)

Red Blade said:
			
		

> I&#8217;ve taken an interest in Balintawak because of its increased visibility.


Maybe my BS meter isn't working very well this weekend, but why does it seem like, from the very start of this thread, you and "RENEGADE" were working in tandem all along? (actually, it doesn't really matter...it would've been more professional had you guys just said "we're having GM Atillo over for a seminar, please come, here's the info", instead of mentioning innuendos, trying to incite a debate.  it's sunday... gotta get back to the woodward interview.  good luck on the seminar anyhow.)


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## Cruentus (Apr 25, 2004)

Lets do this by the numbers...

#1 First, go to this site: www.wmarnis.com; read Datu Hartman's (aka "renegade's") profile. Then, read the list of events.

O.K., now that your armed with that info, think logically. WHY would someone of Tim's status and experience need to coherse with "Red Blade" to create controvery in order to promote an event? He wouldn't. If he wanted to promote an event, he'd just post the information, as he has ALWAYS done in the past. To think otherwise, especially without proof, is illogical given these facts. Furthermore, to suggest it without any evidence is slanderousand disrespectful at best. Frankly, I am disappointed in you, Bart, for this implication, and disappointed in anyone who'd believe such hogwash without any evidence to prove it.

#2 "Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves."

As Arnisidor has said, proper respect has always been given. Why would you think otherwise is this case? To think otherwise would be illogical, given that there is no history of Datu Tim NOT giving respect to someone he hosts at his school.

#3 In regards to the senior issue...Atillo is my senior. Because my teacher, Manong Ted Buot, is alive and well, I agree that it is not in my place to "put him (atillo) in his place," and I have said this myself previously in this thread. However, if it is proven that someone is lying, the "senior card" has lost all validity, in my opinion, and we can say/do as we please. However, since my teacher is still alive, and since I don't have all the facts from his side of the story, I won't be taking it upon myself to put anyone "in their place" at this time. As far as I am concerned, until the dynamics change, Atillo will recieve respect as he deserves from me. My teacher is still alive to sort out any problems regarding this matter, so it is not nessicary for me to confront him or his students.

I think that all of Manong Ted's students feel this way as well. 

#4 On "successorship," people can do whatever they want. The FACT is that Manong Ted Buot was the only person deligated to teach in the school in Cebu outside of Anciong. This is a fact. No one is claiming that other people can't teach their version of the art, we'd just like it everyone kept their facts straight.

#5 Conclusion:

So, lets start using our brains, here, fella's, before we start blaming people for being disrespectful, or being "MCdojo advertisor's," or any other sillyness. Your reproach doesn't match logically with the facts. 

Thank you.

PAUL


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 25, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> (as explained to me...)
> 
> The word successor doesn't really apply in the Philippines.  This is more a Chinese/Korean/Japanese cultural trait.  This is why no one can trace any FMA system or style prior to the 1900s or late 1890s.
> 
> ...




Joe,

I also understand that others were teaching their modified or grouped versions at that time. Or their take on things. Yet, Did GM Anciong BAcon give them permission to do so? I beleive they were already established teachers, wiht a good reputaton and coulddefend themselves, so the answer could be they might not have needed his permission. Yet again, did he have them come in and teach at his club like he had Manong Ted Buot do? NO disrespect to any of those old masters and GM's.  If you are argueing semantics it is best to make sure we get a valid definition.

 :asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 25, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> Maybe my BS meter isn't working very well this weekend, but why does it seem like, from the very start of this thread, you and "RENEGADE" were working in tandem all along? (actually, it doesn't really matter...it would've been more professional had you guys just said "we're having GM Atillo over for a seminar, please come, here's the info", instead of mentioning innuendos, trying to incite a debate.  it's sunday... gotta get back to the woodward interview.  good luck on the seminar anyhow.)



Joe-

I have never used tactics like this in the past and I'm not going to start now! You are new to MT, so you don't know my posting history. Take a look of my posting history and you'll see that when I announce a seminar I just come out and announce it. If either Bart or yourself would like to discuss this my cell is 716-432-0600.
 :asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 25, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> but to say he was the only "Successor" would go against cultural norms in the Philippines..



If this is the case then why would GM Presas (a Filipino) publicly name me as one of his Successors?



			
				Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> If Anciong Bacon did name a clear "Successor", as in other Asian martial systems, he would have been really pissed off with the other Balintawak instructors teaching Balintawak.



Are you sure he didn't? GM Buot was there and you weren't.



			
				Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> To open the Pandora's box of Balintawak "SUCCESSORSHIP" (besides missing the whole culture of Balintawak and other FMAs), would only serve to piss on the relationship of the old timers and their art.  This is, of course, is no disrespect to Ted Buot... I'm sure he would agree to what I've just wrote.



Maybe you should ask him yourself!


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 25, 2004)

Tim has always posted his seminar information way ahead of time so that evryone who wanted to show up could. He has named those who would be inattendence teaching and notables that whould be ther also. He updates that information as it changes.
 He has always been up frount with this information on this forum


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## Joe Eccleston (Apr 25, 2004)

I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now.  It's a Modern Arnis fetish.  "you are my successor!!!".  "you are my heir".  "you are my next in line".

If we took this seriously, then we'd have to ask who Ted Buot's "successor" is? Datu Tim Hartman?

or how about this... (let's fry our brain cells a little here) who was Anciong Bacon the successor of? Lorenzo Saavedra (his only teacher)? Does Lorenzo Saavedra know this?  and who was Saavedra the successor of?

Of course the impetus here is obvious... "I am the "successor" of Presas and Buot (who was the only successor of Bacon), this is the reason I can charge 125 bucks a seminar. Why? Because I am the SUCCESSOR!!!"

as far as the seminar is concerned, it was far too coincidental.  One person starts a thread about GM Atillo, another starts with the "he is wrong, my master is the successor BS", and after awhile, "hey folks, i'm having this guy over for only 125 bucks!!!".

If Ted Buot was the only "SUCCESSOR" of Bacon, and everyone followed this formal "decree", no one would've known about Balintawak in Cebu, the Philippines, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and all other countries Balintawak is now known.  What does this make other Balintawak fighters who never trained with Buot? Are they fakes? Sub-standard maybe?  If so, all you need to do is contact Bobby Taboada, Nick Elizar, Bobby Tabimina, and all others who didn't train under Ted Buot.  

I know I'm not Filipino, but I atleast try to learn the very culture whose art I'm practicing.  But, then again it's not the Money for me, I just love the Art. (But then again, maybe I should get my teacher to write me a certificate or contract saying he'll make me HIS "successor"... It might prove profitable in the future)

While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death.  He never got a penny (or centavo) from this.  Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor".

I'm out...


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 25, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now.  It's a Modern Arnis fetish.  "you are my successor!!!".  "you are my heir".  "you are my next in line".
> 
> If we took this seriously, then we'd have to ask who Ted Buot's "successor" is? Datu Tim Hartman?
> 
> ...




Joe, I apologize if you took my words that way.


I respect GM Remy Presas as he did his own thing.

I respect GM Anciong Bacon for doing his own thing.

I respect the students of GM Anciong Bacon who taught or are teaching. They did there own things. I have not disrespect or issues with this. I do have issues with people who make a statement and then cannot back it up with facts or evidence. Bobby Tabamina who etaches Balintawak, I have never meet and he was one if not the last full time student of GM Anciong Bacon. I respect his acts of trying to promote the art. Yet all of these people have one thing in common, they all agree that GM Anciong as different from the Doces Pares in techniques, and he started Balintawak. Bacon's students who have moved on added or modified, all changed or modified the name even as simple as putting their own name in front. I respect this much more, as they are stating here it is and this is what I am doing. No hiding, no issues, no hidden agendas. Atillo has made claims that I do not think are true. I said Think. He, Atillo, also claims a different version of history then everyone else. This raises the flags of people who wonder why.  Atillo also states it is Balintawak he teaches yet it came from someone else other than Bacon. I would respect and understand more if Atillo had marketed it as Atillo Balintawak and moved on with just his skill and talents. It is when he throws mudd with his comments that I begin to question why? I see only lose. Obviously he trained with Gm Anciong there pictures. Obvious he trained  with his father. No one is having a problem with this.

What people are having a problem swallowing is the ner version of history with no other versions to back it up. The use of the term being only he has the real Balintawak because it came from the teaches of GM Bacon. This is what is causing everyone problems.

In my opinion, which means very little, I think GM Atillo should just market his own thing. Then you will not have these issues or questions of character come up nad some people think it necessary to establish who is right by defining all the others as being wrong.

With respect to all those who practice, teach, and live the FMA's
 :asian:


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## bart (Apr 26, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Lets do this by the numbers...
> #1
> O.K., now that your armed with that info, think logically. WHY would someone of Tim's status and experience need to coherse with "Red Blade" to create controvery in order to promote an event? He wouldn't. If he wanted to promote an event, he'd just post the information, as he has ALWAYS done in the past. To think otherwise, especially without proof, is illogical given these facts. Furthermore, to suggest it without any evidence is slanderousand disrespectful at best. Frankly, I am disappointed in you, Bart, for this implication, and disappointed in anyone who'd believe such hogwash without any evidence to prove it.
> 
> PAUL



Well what can I say, sometimes I just disappoint people. All right, here's the evidence. I didn't want to bring this up because it's not an outright condemnation, it's just fishy. But since I'm being accused of being slanderous, I'll mention it. The post below came in asking Red Blade about what FMA/JKD background s/he had as whoever Red Blade is was not very forthcoming on their bio.



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> Red Blade,
> 
> Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?
> 
> ...



Just a little bit later this post comes in through the email from MT saying there's a new post:



> _
> Hello bart,
> 
> Renegade has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Questions about Balintawak - in the Filipino Martial Arts - General forum of MartialTalk.Com.
> ...



Fishy? Yes...very. It appears that Renegade is answering Red Blade's post. I've viewed Tim's site and it says under influences "Grand Master Ted Buot  - Balintawak". I've assumed before that it meant he trained with him. The email above says differently. You can draw your own conclusions, but after reading that it made the whole thread seem off. But magically when I went to see that post on MT it had been edited. 

What are the goals there? I can't be sure, but marketing is among the more honorable ones so that's the one I chose to talk about before. An additional one could be the artificial creation of a dialogue which has only one end: reiteration of GM Buot as the only "successor" to Anciong's Original Balintawak. And who would be the one to say that? 



			
				Red Blade said:
			
		

> Question 3
> *Did GM Bacon name a successor?*
> Answer: No straight answer.





			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the *ONLY* person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.
> :asian:



By the way, we all know GM Buot is the only authorized successor. Not that it's really that important to him, but I have great respect for the man and would consider myself lucky to train with him even if just for an afternoon. I subscribed to Martial Talk magazine just to read that interview. All I originally wanted to do in this thread was add in my two cents about how there is SOME truth in the Saavedra-Atillo link. I'm not a GM or a Master, but I feel that I have something to offer polite discussion which is why I prefer this BB over others. I just felt duped into participating in some type of minor dishonesty that I didn't want to be involved in. So I spoke up about it in what I thought was a very nondescript way.  



			
				PAUL said:
			
		

> #2 "Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves."
> 
> As Arnisidor has said, proper respect has always been given. Why would you think otherwise is this case? To think otherwise would be illogical, given that there is no history of Datu Tim NOT giving respect to someone he hosts at his school.



By the way, I don't know Tim from Adam, but by saying what I did, I in no way meant to infer that Tim would himself disrespect Atillo or that he had a history of being disrespectful. But after a few pages of Atillo bashing in this thread, to announce his seminar with this quote...



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school...



...does make it seem like the environment might be a little open to trashing Atillo to his face. As a matter of fact it seems illogical to think that it wouldn't be. I wanted to say that Tim should make sure that Atillo gets the respect he deserves as far as his station in life goes i.e. him being our elder in the FMA and in age, specifically in guaranteeing that the seminar won't be a several hour bash session or a bombardment with a series of leading questions that will cause nothing but strife and controversy.  



			
				PAUL said:
			
		

> #3 In regards to the senior issue...Atillo is my senior. Because my teacher, Manong Ted Buot, is alive and well, I agree that it is not in my place to "put him (atillo) in his place," and I have said this myself previously in this thread. However, if it is proven that someone is lying, the "senior card" has lost all validity, in my opinion, and we can say/do as we please. However, since my teacher is still alive, and since I don't have all the facts from his side of the story, I won't be taking it upon myself to put anyone "in their place" at this time. As far as I am concerned, until the dynamics change, Atillo will recieve respect as he deserves from me. My teacher is still alive to sort out any problems regarding this matter, so it is not nessicary for me to confront him or his students.
> 
> I think that all of Manong Ted's students feel this way as well.



That opinion about lying and the "senior card" is mine as well when it comes to Americans and American culture. But when it comes to Filipino culture it's very different. It still holds for my peers and juniors, but Atillo is an old man. Being old has some perks in Filipino culture, one being you can say what you want, be it bola bola or God's honest truth, and your juniors still have to give you respect, i.e. not directly calling you on it to your face or in public. It would take an act of God or war to cancel that "senior card". What I said is that blasting Atillo to his face will close some doors for us over there in the PI, all of us, regardless of whether you agree with the culture or not. Respecting Atillo has very little to do with your teacher at all. Disrespecting him in an "in your face" style will make all us Americans look bad to some of the old timers in the Philippines. That is the danger and that is what I'm talking about. Even if you do get all your facts straight about both sides of the story, in the Filipino paradigm, it doesn't give you the right to put your elders "in their place." 


I think it's somewhat funny here, but I think that maybe out of all of the people that are talking about this in this thread, I might be the only one that has met and worked out with Atillo. He talked about Bacon and he talked about his father. He talked about Doring Saavedra and his influence on Bacon, and his father, and himself. He talked about a lot of people, but mainly he worked on Eskrima. Regardless of who puts it on and how it was marketed, I still recommend going to a seminar with him. He's got good stuff to offer and it would be worthwhile to go and see.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 26, 2004)

*Admin Note:*
Thread locked pending administrative investigation.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 27, 2004)

Just a note.

The Admin team is investigating the concerns.
Due to my affiliation with Tim Hartman, I am abstaining from the deliberations.

I have unlocked this thread so that the discussion of Balintawak can continue.  I ask that everyone please focus on the art information, not the tangental issue we are investigating.

Thank you.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 27, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now.  It's a Modern Arnis fetish.  "you are my successor!!!".  "you are my heir".  "you are my next in line".



You missed my point. You say that successorship is not in FMA, yet I'm able to site one example. And no, I'm not GM Buot's next in line.

I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs. 

I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs. When someone said Balintawak I think of the original system, not a hybrid program. This is not to say that the other programs are bad or wrong. What I'm saying may not be an accurate portrayal of the system. I teach Balintawak to my Black Belts and I tell them this is a Hybrid program because of the Modern Arnis influences. I wouldnt want people to thing my execution was the way the original art is suppose to look like. 

GM Taboada calls his program Balintawak Arnis Cuentada because there are other influences. He is very good and I like what he does, but he is the first to say that his art has many outside influences.

 :asian:


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## Toasty (Apr 27, 2004)

Attn Mr Eccelston:
You have now pulled me into this little pissing match... I had said previously that I would not get involved with any further discussions regarding Balintawak on the internet, but when you make a statement like:
"While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor"

I take that crap very seriously...I sincerely hope you are not refering to Manong Ted Buot with this statement?! 

I would have you know that while teaching WITH Noy Anciong (as in when he wasnt present - not while he was in jail) Nong Ted did not take payment at all, but on the other hand guys like Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten all made $$ on Balintawak while Venancio Ba'con was alive & teaching in Cebu, but for some reason Noy Anciong didnt see any of this cash.

The following comes in no particular order, I am not going to quote everything you wrote...just my rebuttals:

Mr. Hartman is by no means the successor to Nong Ted, nor is he even a "senior" student, And he has never said he was, so get off that crap right now. (By the way, I have absolutley nothing to do with Modern Arnis, or any other FMA, I only train in Balintawak).

Bobby Tabmina was trained first by Velez & Villasin, then mostly by Arturo Sanchez (while Anciong was present), that info has been corroberated by several different people, here & in Cebu.

Bobby Taboada was trained mostly by Pilo Velez & Joe Villasin - actually very little time with Anciong, he has said as much.    

This is not to say that both Bobby's are not phenomenal Escrimadors - I have not met either man, but I am quite sure they are GM's in their own right.

And, Noy Anciong was disappointed with the way GM's Villasin & Velez were teaching his system over at their club. He said as much to Nong Ted (and others), complaining that they had even changed his fundementals.



And this will be the absolute final thing I will ever write regarding Mr. Crispulo Atillothis part is more addressing what Bart wrote)  As far as respect goes, what about his responsability to give his Elders (specifically Anciong) their due respect? He speaks ill of the dead (and living), & disrespected Noy Anciong in print. Then, when caught out, has his version changed by another student on-line.


The End

Rob


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 27, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> Mr. Hartman is by no means the successor to Nong Ted, nor is he even a "senior" student, And he has never said he was, so get off that crap right now.



Thanks Rob. :asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Apr 27, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs. When someone said Balintawak I think of the original system, not a hybrid program.
> 
> :asian:



Here is a clarification point which I don't think has been made.  Manong Ted Buot had no other FMA training prior to training in balintawak escrima, only boxing.  To my knowledge, I don't think he has had any other FMA training since being with Anscion Bacon, hence "original balintawak."  Many of the others have had other training besides balintawak or have added things not taught by Bacon.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Joe Eccleston (Apr 27, 2004)

_"While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor"_

The above said was for DATU Tim Hartman, not Ted Buot.  I said this because I was pissed off that I was duped into a very unassuming little thread about Balintawak, only to find out that it was an elaborate advertising ploy for his &#8220;Atillo Seminar&#8221;.  There are atleast 5 others who felt this way who subscribe to this forum, although I am the most vocal and irrate.

Since the beginning, I have always appreciated the information I have received from this forum.  Because of this, I&#8217;ve tried to reciprocate by sharing information I&#8217;ve learned.  My interest is in history and culture, not politics.  I care not whether one is a Datu or a Successor of a system, or whether he trains with a Successor of a system.  I&#8217;ve said my piece about &#8220;Successorship&#8221; in FMA, obviously DATU Tim Hartman feels there was and always has been &#8220;successorship&#8221; in FMA (or maybe even colored belts and titles?).

I, personally, prefer the cultural and historical version I have been told&#8230;  That FMA, prior to it&#8217;s commercialization, was just about fighting efficiency, not lineage.  Lineage leads to the deep BS we are now swimming around in.  Lineage leads to more than 100 people getting the &#8220;you&#8217;re my successor&#8221; speech in public, only to bicker when the top dog dies.  Lineage is a big waste of time.  Lineage is politics.  Lineage is business.  Lineage is money. Lineage takes away from fighting efficiency.  Fighting efficiency only asks one simple question: Can you fight?  It doesn&#8217;t ask what your title is, or who you train with, or how many seminars you can promote.  This is what Balintawak and FMA is to me.

So, when I get duped into an advertisement &#8220;discussion&#8221;, I get pissed off and make my opinion heard.  I have found my little niche in Martial Arts.  It is free from BS.  And then one day, I learn that my little niche has been pissed on and commercialized. 

_"I would have you know that while teaching WITH Noy Anciong (as in when he wasnt present - not while he was in jail) Nong Ted did not take payment at all, but on the other hand guys like Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten all made $$ on Balintawak while Venancio Bacon was alive & teaching in Cebu, but for some reason Noy Anciong didnt see any of this cash."_

And this is exactly what I mean by pissed on.  You&#8217;ve successfully crapped on Atillo&#8217;s name in public several months ago.  Now, you&#8217;re doing it again, by insinuating that they (Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten) are mere ingrates, to be disrespected.  The discussion, up to this point, was only about an advertising scam, successorship, a seminar and about Atillo.  There was no hint of even disrespecting these elders, or even mentioning them.  But, you chose to do so.  It was your choice to make.  

Allow me to inform you about their side, as best I can (although you have already crucified them on the net, as you did to Atillo).  Villasin was said to be one of the best fighters.  He was an attorney, but had close to 15 kids, so he wasn&#8217;t rich by any means.  Maranga lived in a squatter area in Cebu, his son Drigo is still there.  Mongcal worked as a security guard, also of very meager means.  Chiuten runs a little bakery in a small town in Bantayan Island, Cebu.  Teofilo Velez was a salesman of various office equipment.  Since I know more about Velez, and less about the others, I&#8217;ll tell you more about him.  He died in the late 80s.  He also lived in a squatter (slum) area of Cebu.  He began with Doce Pares, until he was bested by a Balintawak fighter, at which time he devoted all his energy into training in Balintawak.  He didn&#8217;t &#8220;make money on Balintawak&#8221;, because he was more passionate about imparting his knowledge to others.  If Villasin was known for his fighting prowess, Velez was known for his passion in teaching Balintawak.  If he did charge for his tuition, he would only do so for a few sessions, when he sees that the student is as passionate, then he considers all fees paid through their sweat (and sometimes blood).  Velez never made money, because of this habit.  But, then again, I guess money wasn&#8217;t that important to him, it was the art.  So, he died a poor man.  His sons live in a slum area.  Nick Elizar, one of Teofilo Velez&#8217;s top students, also lives in a squatter area in Cebu, called Barangay Luz.  So, as you can see no one really made money off Balintawak.  Because in a third world nation such as the Philippines, no one would ever dream of paying for a martial arts instruction that would cost more than the next meal.  So, Balintawak stayed as it is, a Club.  

This is also true in the present.  I began my training not so long ago, at 15 dollars per session, but as soon as my teacher noticed I was really passionate about this art (which was about 5 sessions later), he gave me a free ride.  This is in keeping with Filipino, or Cebuano, culture I was told, since it would be wrong for him to charge me having equal passion as he did when he started out with Teofilo Velez.  So, Balintawak had never been about the Money.  It had never been about Seminars for 125 dollars.  It had, and still is, always been about the passion for this Art.  So, for you to sit there and piss on the Elders of Balintawak is sad to say the least.  You did this to Atillo and now to the rest of the Balintawak clan, but again this was your choice.  As Americans we tend to be very disrespectful, we tend to see things from our own cultural paradigm, hence you have successors, and lineage, and all this disrespect among people who have died. This was theirs to sort out, not ours.  And especially, not ours to talk about in the internet!!!!!!!


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 27, 2004)

> As Americans we tend to be very disrespectful, we tend to see things from our own cultural paradigm, hence you have successors, and lineage, and all this disrespect among people who have died. This was theirs to sort out, not ours. And especially, not ours to talk about in the internet!!!!!!!



 :shrug: 

Does anyone know the sound of one hand clapping?

Nice net-speech, Joe. Too bad it's filled mostly with your viewpoint, and void of some major facts.

I PMed you my phone numbers, so we can communicate in a verbal manner, and so you can get the facts as I see them. Tim also posted his cell # here.

How about you call either him or I so you can get the full story? The fact that you haven't yet makes me think that your a net troll who is trying to cause trouble, just as much as "red blade" or anyone else with no info in their profile, and no voice to match the face.

So, is it troll and trouble maker, or is it genuine student of the arts?

I'll be waiting for your phone call.

PAUL 
248-722-1634


----------



## Dan Anderson (Apr 27, 2004)

Joe,

First of all for the info on the other balintawak master's history. 

Second, I don't know if the importance of successorship is an American phenomenon or not.  I do know that, having grown up in karate, we karate people got it hammered into us the importance of having and continuing a lineage, thereby make successorship very important.  I, then, found this to be an interesting passage from Mark Wiley's book, _Arnis - Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts_ page 131 -

_Kung Fu students avidly seek genealogical charts of their styles because that is how they establish legitimacy.  Conversely, the classical arnisador pays only scant attention to such charts.  for the classical arnis master stands on his own abilities.  He is not a master because he has received a certificate from a school, or because he has been appointed successor by a grandmaster.  He is sui generis. _ (def sui generis - Latin, [literally of his (her) own kind], altogether unique).

I tuned in to this thread initially because I am also training with Ted Buot and being probably his newest student, there was some history to be found here by others who knew more.  Although it has gotten heated, it has turned up some interesting history.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Tgace (Apr 27, 2004)

What is the "motive" behind all this successorship controversy?

Money?: Is there that much $$ to be had that this stuff is so "hot"?

Power?: Is there some sort of ego/self-esteem satisfaction to being top dog?

"The Art": Do people really care that the art stays "pure"

Mud Slinging: People just like to bad mouth people they dont like, and defend people they do?

Its probably not as easy as that...I know theres probably combinations of the above in any situation. Where does this @#$% stem from? Ive heard "The Fillipinos did this..." and "Japanese Systems did that..." but come on! A large chunk of us here are Americans. Just because I study a Fillipino Art dosent mean I live by any type of Fillipino ethos. Are peoples lives so hum-drum that they are looking for a little "soap opera" to keep things interesting?


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 27, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Does anyone know the sound of one hand clapping?
> 
> Nice net-speech, Joe. Too bad it's filled mostly with your viewpoint, and void of some major facts.
> 
> ...




My reasons for ignoring your phone call invitations are exactly for the reasons above.  It would be a great waste of my time.  Take what you can from what I wrote, but expect no phone calls from me.


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 27, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Joe,





			
				Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> First of all for the info on the other balintawak master's history.
> 
> Second, I don't know if the importance of successorship is an American phenomenon or not. I do know that, having grown up in karate, we karate people got it hammered into us the importance of having and continuing a lineage, thereby make successorship very important. I, then, found this to be an interesting passage from Mark Wiley's book, _Arnis - Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts_ page 131 -
> 
> ...




I agree, Dan... what was once interesting and informative has become politicized.  That was a great quote by the way, and echoes the very point I'm trying to convey here.  I too grew up in Karate, and I too experienced this whole "lineage" crap.  This is why FMA is like a breath of fresh air for me, a completely different cultural perspective.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Apr 27, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> I agree, Dan... what was once interesting and informative has become politicized.  That was a great quote by the way, and echoes the very point I'm trying to convey here.  I too grew up in Karate, and I too experienced this whole "lineage" crap.  This is why FMA is like a breath of fresh air for me, a completely different cultural perspective.




Joe et al,

I agree that lineage is quite new.

I agree that talent and skill and knowledge and courage should be what is rated.

Yet, I find it contemptable when people make up stories. No matter who it affects. I also find it funny that if it was all skill based then why does GM Atillo need to promote his art beyond saying here do it this way. Noy Anciong taught me this, or Nong Savaadra taught this to my Dad, Etc, ..., .


To Bart as to the Senior card.

I respect my seniors.

Those who are older than I.

Those who have trained longer than I.

I do not idle worship them.

And those Senior Manongs I have meet, never asked me to believe that the sky was green and the grass was blue, even though I am colored blind. I meanthis in no disrespect to my seniors.  I am just stating that not all of those seniors agree that they have the right to make things up.

Hence back to what Joe stated and Wiley wrote and Dan provided here. It is based upon skill and capabilities.

So, I do not mean to insult anyone. I just find it hard to swallow certain things. I do find it much easier to see someone and to make an evealution on if I can learn from this person, based upon skill or teaching style.

Yes, one could take this as me trying to take my seniors to task. And for that I apologize. For I am not trying to take them to task. I am stating my opinion as I see it, and how I feel, and willing to live with the ramifications. If this means that GM Atillo does not wish to teach me, then I may loose out. I may feel differently if I did not have such an excellant teacher in my back yard, that has accepted me and is willing to teach me, and work with me to improve myself and maybe someday others.

 :asian:


----------



## Emptyglass (Apr 27, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> _" It had, and still is, always been about the passion for this Art._


_

Hi Joe:

This is well said as I hear it once and a while from my own instructor, Guro Bobby Ladra. He is a student of Grandmaster Bobby Taboada.

My question is what is this the big deal now about the original/modifed/purity/successorship of Balintawak. This was never a big deal before this thread as far as I can remember (please feel free to prove me wrong with facts here). Oh, but this thread was started by the as yet unknown Red Blade (currently under investigation right?).

Honestly, the only person I can remember talking about Balintawak up until the early 90's when I met Grandmaster Taboada was Rocky Paswik (not that I know everyone or have seen everything).

This all sounds like it should be taken with a big grain of salt at present with no disrespect to anyone.

At the end of the day, this is the internet and everything goes right?

Thanks,

Richard Curren_


----------



## Emptyglass (Apr 27, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> Bobby Taboada was trained mostly by Pilo Velez & Joe Villasin - actually very little time with Anciong, he has said as much.
> 
> Rob



Hi Rob:

This is an interesting statement as I have heard that Grandmaster Taboada  slept at the feet of Great Grandmaster Bacon on the floor while training with him. Perhaps my memory is off or I am completely out of my skull here but that sounds like pretty serious stuff to me.

This being said, I only know what Grandmaster Taboada's Balintawak looks like as the only other practicioner I have seen is Sam Buot and his students. <shrug>

Regardless of the so-called "purity" (not that there's anything wrong with getting your information from one source) I'm quite happy with what I'm learning and I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone else who's interested. It's all good.

Best Regards,

Richard Curren


----------



## Dan Anderson (Apr 27, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> What is the "motive" behind all this successorship controversy?
> 
> Money?: Is there that much $$ to be had that this stuff is so "hot"?
> 
> ...



Twangggggg!  (whistling sound)  Ka-thunk!  Right dead center in the bulls eye.  Good shot!

Yours,
Dan

PS- Hey Rich Curren.  Howya doin'?  I haven't heard from you in a while.


----------



## Emptyglass (Apr 28, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> PS- Hey Rich Curren.  Howya doin'?  I haven't heard from you in a while.



Prof. Dan:

Hello right back to you sir. I've been lurking and reading along (and training and working). Honestly all of this seems a bit dramatic. People get fired up online so easily it amazes me.

Interesting stuff though and I'm eager to see how it all turns out. By the way, Guro Ladra told me he liked the stuff you did at the Symposium very much when I showed it to him.

Best Regards,

Rich Curren


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Hi Rob:
> 
> This is an interesting statement as I have heard that Grandmaster Taboada  slept at the feet of Great Grandmaster Bacon on the floor while training with him. Perhaps my memory is off or I am completely out of my skull here but that sounds like pretty serious stuff to me.
> 
> ...



I would go further on some of these "he never trained with so and so, he even said so..." types of comments because:

1.  Did he (any of the "he's" that get bashed here) say it to you, in your presence, recorded/printed somewhere?

2.  Are you working from stories from others?  If so, remember the game "TELEPHONE" and how shifting one or two words, summarizing and any other variations can change the story from the original event.

3.  The "he's" and in some cases the "she's" being discredited/slandered/liabled are not here to explain, defend or give any personal representation.

I have it from GM Bobby T's own mouth as well that he trained with GGM Bacon, but only after he had progressed through his other BK instructors.

Also the idea of "original vs variance" WHO CARES!  Does it fly?  Can YOU make it fly?  Okay, move on.  As far as I know, the BK club came from a tradition of individualization of art - not a 'frozen set' club.

GM Remy Presas admittedly had an ecclectic/mish mosh of other influences.  Historically, is there anything that is 'pure' or is it really all just variations on a theme.  Variations that we love, that work that make more sense to us.... but all variation none the less.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> The fact that you haven't yet makes me think that your a net troll who is trying to cause trouble, just as much as "red blade" or anyone else with no info in their profile, and no voice to match the face.
> 
> So, is it troll and trouble maker, or is it genuine student of the arts?
> 
> ...



The lack of a profile is one thing in my checklist of things that I use to consider whether someone is 'trolling' or not.  But, in Joe's case, I wouldn't go so far as calling him a troll.  Without getting too deep into the issue, if we are going to start comparing Red Blade and Joe, the open informative info that he shares and the tone of it are far from trollish.  Also the consistency of the written information that he presents in relation to his claimed training is solid.

Red Blade, on the other hand, has a history of asking questions, starting thread and making comments that show far more Modern Arnis background/political interest than 'using it to supplement' the FMA/JKD background that is on the profile.  The lack of informed commentary about FMA or JKD as in the usual "At my school..." or mentioning who they train with, along with volumes of criticism in Red Blade posts - to the point of discrediting rank claims/instructor/lineage (including Dan Anderson, Bobby Taboada, Jeff Delaney, Ising Atillo....), business partnerships that they really shouldn't either care about or know anything about ALONG WITH the lack of a profile, forthright sharing of location or sources for BK commentary.... all point to trolling.

Why would someone who claims JKD/FMA background ask about where to get JKD seminar info from the internet?... that should be common knowledge on the training floor from either instructors or fellow students.

After reading back through Red Blade posting history it is really clear that there is an agenda of some kind, and that there is a WORLD of difference between Joe's indignation about being drawn into a ploy and Red Blades Sheeit Stirring.  Read through the history to decide what the possible agenda is for yourself.


----------



## DoxN4cer (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> :shrug:
> 
> Does anyone know the sound of one hand clapping?
> 
> ...



Yes, we can hear it im many of your posts. 

Troll? Trouble maker? Nah. I don't think Joe has threatened anyone here, and I don't think that he's purposely trying to annoy anyone in particular. I think that he's simply frustrated with the duplicitous nature of things and  the obvious one-sided slant that is often displayed here. 

Just because Joe's BS meter goes off and he says something about it doesn't make him a trouble maker or an internet troll. 

Knit picking at every little thing that a particular person makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker.

Sniping and slandering a person who cannot post in this forum makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker. 

Making threats, empty or otherwise, makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker.

I guess penace and introspection didn't pay off this past Lent. Well there's always next year. Good luck friend.

Tim Kashino
____________
Be, Know, Do


----------



## Toasty (Apr 28, 2004)

Hey Joe,
You are an idiot.
I never meant to disrespect the elders & if you took it that way, I am sorry for your lack of understanding.   BUT YOU started with all the "the founder of this art died in poverty" stuff.  Did you forget that?!. 
And as I remember you started posting on here as a "newbie" to Balintawak asking a bunch of questions on history & such ...well it sure seems to me that you have "learned" an awful lot in an awful short time....makes me wonder what YOUR agenda is.  Trolling perhaps?...More likely an Atillo shill...get stuffed. 

Now pay attention here sunshine  - I Have No Longer Have Any Interest In Anything That Has Anything To Do With Atillo Balintawak.

I did not piss all over the names or memories of Villasin, Velez, Chiuten, Mongcal or Maranga as "i did with Atillo" because as far as i know they (or their decendents) are not/were not spreading lies on the internet as Atillo was - pay attention child.

Once again I am quoted out of context and "cut & pasted" incorrectly - if you fools are gonna attempt to talk about what I wrote AT LEAST GET IT RIGHT!

I will now leave this site as well as any & all sites regarding martial arts on the internet  none of the people on here are worth one more second of my time. How do you people get such high post counts? Do you never work or train? I have been on here since 2001 & only have like 56 posts...get a life.

Attn: EmptyGlass, again - i never said Gm Taboada did not train with Anciong, just that most of his training was from Villasin & Velez. 

Att: Loki see above with regards to Gm Tabimina.

NOTE: I took specific care to list tham both as GrandMasters in this post as well as my previous post.  
If you felt I have spoken out of turn or disrespected either of them I am truly sorry, that has never been my intention.

In many cases my sources have asked me not to use their names (much like a reporter folks) because of exactly what has happened to me - most of what i write taken out of context, quoted wrong, or incorrect "cut & paste" - and they are nice people & dont want their good names dragged thru the mud. 
I other the hand, dont really give a crap, in as much as I am not a nice person. 

And as for any overt or veiled threats and/or challenges, I have always stood by what i have written - all of it is my own (not fed by others). 

The 
End

Rob


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> Hey Joe,
> You are an idiot.
> I never meant to disrespect the elders & if you took it that way, I am sorry for your lack of understanding.   BUT YOU started with all the "the founder of this art died in poverty" stuff.  Did you forget that?!.
> And as I remember you started posting on here as a "newbie" to Balintawak asking a bunch of questions on history & such ...well it sure seems to me that you have "learned" an awful lot in an awful short time....makes me wonder what YOUR agenda is.  Trolling perhaps?...More likely an Atillo shill...get stuffed.
> ...



Before you go, what is it that you do?  Who do you train with?  What is your Martial background?....


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> Att: Loki see above with regards to Gm Tabimina.
> 
> In many cases my sources have asked me not to use their names (much like a reporter folks) because of exactly what has happened to me - most of what i write taken out of context, quoted wrong, or incorrect "cut & paste" - and they are nice people & dont want their good names dragged thru the mud.
> I other the hand, dont really give a crap, in as much as I am not a nice person.
> ...


The term "very little" time with Bacon is what I was responding to with the variation on information through each teller of the tale.

And, if you are posting stuff based on sources, then your opinion is being 'fed' by others in terms of what you are forming your words/opinions on.  Stand by your words, but if you are the only one who knows the validity of the source - for what ever reason - expect others to comment.


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 28, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> Hey Joe,





			
				Toasty said:
			
		

> You are an idiot.
> I never meant to disrespect the elders & if you took it that way, I am sorry for your lack of understanding. BUT YOU started with all the "the founder of this art died in poverty" stuff. Did you forget that?!.




I am not even going to go down this path with you, Rob, you obviously have issues to deal with on your own.  And for the record, I did not start anything.  I was simply making my opinion heard about the commercialization, and surreptious advertising ploys, on this thread.  I had already made clear that that statement was for DATU Tim Hartman, not Ted Buot.  And YES, what you said about Velez, Villasin, Chiuten, Maranga, and others is--to say the very least--very disrespectful, especially since they cannot offer a rebuttle.  As I have said before, this was theirs to sort out, not ours.  You have managed to systematically crucify these Elders characters on the internet.  So, please talk about the issues, but do not drag them here.  Call me an idiot all you want, but do not defile these people's name in public.


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> My reasons for ignoring your phone call invitations are exactly for the reasons above.  It would be a great waste of my time.  Take what you can from what I wrote, but expect no phone calls from me.



First of all, if ya'll (you and some who have decided to "come to the rescue"   ) would read what I wrote, you'd see that I didn't call you a troll. I am saying that some of the signs are there. The fact that you offer no real information on your profile to indicate that your a real person is one thing (the same thing that "red blade" and others in the past have been hung out to dry for). The fact that we know very little about your training background, or your links to FMA is another. And, the fact that you refuse to communicate with me on a personal level (even prior to this blow up) is a MAJOR thing also that indicates trollish behavior.

Yes, you have offered some good conversation and good information that doesn't point to "troolish" behavior as well, which is why I didn't call you a troll, I just asked.

So I don't know who or what you are Joe. I don't know if your a genuine guy or not. But, let me tell you one thing I have learned about the net after some hard Introspection...

Internet forum stuff is not "true" communication by itself. Anyone can make up a fake name, give out fake information, and speculate and argue from this false perspective. What do you have when you have a bunch of people in a room with fake profiles speculating with each other? You have FANTASY communication....in other words it ain't real. It's almost like a role-playing game, except people can get hurt in this game on different levels through the politicing. Add this with the fact that things like "tone" and "body language" and other nonverbal communication (the other 90% of communication, I might add) are taken completely out of the picture, and you have a recipe for disaster. It is far to easy to psychologically distance yourself from others in "fantasy" communication, which means that many hurtful things can be easily said and done over the internet.

So, what makes the communication "real." Real information so people know who you are is a good start; however, I understand that some people may have certian constraints (perhaps their job won't allow it) where they can't put up their real info in a public forum. Yet, this is a very rare situation, and most of the time you can put your real info up. Outside of profile, private communication also makes it real, and not just through PM's (although that can be helpful). I am talking about getting on the phone at the very least, and talking with the person your communicating with online. This way you can recognize that the person on the other end of the keyboard as a real person, not some fantasy character with a goofy handle.

Looking back, the times that I was unwilling to communicate privately (much like you in this case) only led to dragged out "fantasy" arguements online. The times I was willing to privately communicate, many of those times unessicary arguements have been were avoided.

In friendly conversation, it doesn't make a difference, but in arguements or debates, "fantasy" communication can be nothing but destructive. 

So, I am asking you Joe, do you want to be destructive or constructive? You don't have to call me or anyone (or at least let me call you), but understand that this is you choosing destructive communication over something constructive. Excuses like "it would be a waste of my time" are cop outs, particularly when fantasy communication on a talk forum is a far bigger waste of time then a 5-10 minute phone conversation.

Do what you want, just recognize that it will be difficult for me (and others) to take fantasy communication seriously.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis
 :asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> What is the "motive" behind all this successorship controversy?
> 
> Money?: Is there that much $$ to be had that this stuff is so "hot"?
> 
> ...



I don't know Tom. The only thing I know is that you are making a little too much sense here to be on this thread. Back to "the study" with you!  :uhyeah:

All I know is that I am a flawed person who is just trying to get better @ the arts. I know that I try to be honest, and when I see dishonesty, I tend to get pissy. I also realize more now then ever that most internet talk is "fantasy" when there is no voice or face to match what is written here.

So maybe we should posture less and train more? Perhaps people should stop wasting time on witch-hunts and crusades, and start spending more time being productive? I don't know...maybe I'm the big idiot here, and everyone else is smarter then me.  :idunno:


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Yes, we can hear it im many of your posts.
> 
> Troll? Trouble maker? Nah. I don't think Joe has threatened anyone here, and I don't think that he's purposely trying to annoy anyone in particular. I think that he's simply frustrated with the duplicitous nature of things and  the obvious one-sided slant that is often displayed here.
> 
> ...



 

O.K. Tim K. You see my response 2 posts up in regards to "Trolling." You want to call me a "troll" I am sure, but that is impossible. I am a real person, with a real name, a real profile, a real viewpoint, and with real opinions. You may disagree with my viewpoint and opinions at times, but this doesn't make me a "troll." If people don't believe I am real, they can talk to me in person by phone, over a beer if we can meet, or we can let sticks or fists do the talking. Whatever it takes to convince whomever that I am definatily "real." This is hardly the stance of a "troll" who hides behind fantasy names and a keyboard.

You may not like me, or my opinions, and that is fine. Calling me a troll however, is laughable.

That being said, you owe me an apology for judging me, and attacking me & my faith. Your attacks are unessicary, and unproductive.

Yet, since it would seem that I am on your internet "hit list," and that you look to slam me on every turn based off past events and current affiliations, I won't stay up at night waiting for that apology.


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> First of all, if ya'll (you and some who have decided to "come to the rescue") would read what I wrote, you'd see that I didn't call you a troll. I am saying that some of the signs are there. The fact that you offer no real information on your profile to indicate that your a real person is one thing (the same thing that "red blade" and others in the past have been hung out to dry for). The fact that we know very little about your training background, or your links to FMA is another. And, the fact that you refuse to communicate with me on a personal level (even prior to this blow up) is a MAJOR thing also that indicates trollish behavior.





			
				PAUL said:
			
		

> Yes, you have offered some good conversation and good information that doesn't point to "troolish" behavior as well, which is why I didn't call you a troll, I just asked.
> 
> So I don't know who or what you are Joe. I don't know if your a genuine guy or not. But, let me tell you one thing I have learned about the net after some hard Introspection...
> 
> ...






Get off your High Horse, bro....


----------



## bart (Apr 28, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> That point was already brought up in the DogBrothers forum, bart...





			
				bart said:
			
		

> I read that thread and stayed out of it. Many of the people made their claims on heresay and ultimately it just go too nasty and descended into name calling and challenges etc. I didn't see a contribution to a flame war as productive.



I think this is happening here too. Maybe this thread should be closed and finished.


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Before you go, what is it that you do?  Who do you train with?  What is your Martial background?....



Just to prevent any witch hunts here...

"Toasty" lives in Michigan, works in ROchester Hills (the next town over from me), but lives about 30 minutes east of me (I think). He trains with Manong Ted and was a student of Inasanto's system prior to that. He is not a modern arnis guy. I have seen him in various places, including a Dr. Gyi seminar in Ferndale.

I don't know Toasty too well, but he is indeed a real person, not affiliated with Datu Tim or Modern Arnis.

He can provide more info if he likes, but I just thought that you should know that.

PAUL


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> First of all, if ya'll (you and some who have decided to "come to the rescue"   ) would read what I wrote.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> Get off your High Horse, bro....



Well, as everyone can see, if I handle things in as mature of a manner as I am capable, then I am blamed for being on a "high horse." If I take another route and nitpick and argue, then I am blamed for being a "troublemaker" at the very least.

I guess when someone or certian people are against you, no matter what you say, you can't win with them.

Such is the nature of fantasy communication.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Just to prevent any witch hunts here...
> 
> "Toasty" lives in Michigan, works in ROchester Hills (the next town over from me), but lives about 30 minutes east of me (I think). He trains with Manong Ted and was a student of Inasanto's system prior to that. He is not a modern arnis guy. I have seen him in various places, including a Dr. Gyi seminar in Ferndale.
> 
> ...



Who are you coming to the rescue of?  If he wants to deal with it, let him.  Not a witch hunt, unless you see a witch hunt....


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 28, 2004)

*Gentlemen....

I've seen a number of complaints on this thread in the last few hours.

While there is no specific comment/post that stands out, the heat factor is rising.

I strongly suggest you muzzle some of the shots, snipes and such.  I understand the frustrations, however before this breaks down into a full blown flame fest, I ask that you back away from the keyboard, and count to 10. 

Also, please allow the mods to complete their investigation before speculating. 

Thank you.*


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> PAUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

Sorry Bob...I didn't see your warning before I posted.

Paul M.,


			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> Who are you coming to the rescue of?  If he wants to deal with it, let him.  Not a witch hunt, unless you see a witch hunt....



Not rescueing anyone, just clarifying, that's all. You asked, so I figured you wanted some kind of answer.


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Well, as everyone can see, if I handle things in as mature of a manner as I am capable, then I am blamed for being on a "high horse." If I take another route and nitpick and argue, then I am blamed for being a "troublemaker" at the very least.
> 
> I guess when someone or certian people are against you, no matter what you say, you can't win with them.
> 
> Such is the nature of fantasy communication.


 
Paul... you are like a date from hell.  NO, I DO NOT WANT TO CALL YOU!!! No, I will not call you.

You have already offered me more than sufficient reasons not to call you, nor speak with you in private.  Your little quip about a one hand clapping was rude and disrespectful, after I had just posted my reasons, having thoroughly explained myself of where I stand.

Further more, we have NOTHING to talk about, Paul.  We obviously have a difference of opinions about "Successorship" in FMA.  Dan Anderson has provided us with a quote, which is exactly my stance and what I've been trying to explain.

As far as any attacks, if you can even call them that, they were all towards DATU Tim Hartman.  And I said what I said, because I was angered that I had been duped into his little advertising ploy with Red Blade, whose account is now suspended.  Pending the investigation, we will later see about this matter.

As for the disrespect of Elders (you can view all of my posts), I have never even come close to disrespecting any.  I feel that it is not even our place to mention them in a politicized manner.  Mention them yes, to enlighten ourselves with history, but not to crap on their names.

I am in L.A. practicing Balintawak.  If I choose not to reveal my address, or my Social Security number, or my phone number, or my mother's maiden name on the internet, that is my choice.  It is not your place to judge me, because I've chosen not to.

I believe that covers everything.


----------



## Toasty (Apr 28, 2004)

Ok, here is the deal....I AM NO LONGER GOING TO READ OR POST ON THIS SITE EVER AGAIN.  I will be erasing it from my database. All responses will go unread.

Mr. Eccleston, I truly believe you a a troll for the reasons stated in my earlier post. For someone who "just started Balintawak a few weeks ago" you certainly have a lot of onesided information available. 
You can twist my words all you want (its been done before), but people with 1/2 a brain can read for themselves that you were the one that infered about Ancion dying in poverty is the fault of all those who teach/taught commercaily. You can call people names ant what not, but as soon as I do the same I "have issues to work out"...yeah thats fair.

To any one else who cannot read past what they want to see, Take a class on reading comprehension. Then, get off the internet & do something else. go outside, it's a nice day!

For all those who have ever had or ever will have a problem with me...
I Am Bigger Than You, I Am Badder Than You And I'll Chop you Down Like Mowing Weeds    yeeaaahhhhh!!!!
(the above is a joke, it's a line from a song by a great Ska band called Pietasters)

Good Bye
signed, a real person
Rob


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 28, 2004)

Toasty said:
			
		

> Mr. Eccleston, I truly believe you a a troll for the reasons stated in my earlier post. For someone who "just started Balintawak a few weeks ago" you certainly have a lot of onesided information available.




What "onesided information", which I "certainly have a lot of", are you talking about, Toasty?

Yes, I have only began training in Balintawak.  But, I ask many questions and I research a lot of information.  When you do this, you tend to learn a lot.  I am interested in its history.  But, I have never posted anything that comes close to disrespect of these Elders.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Hey, no problem Paul M., and thanks for clarifying. The fact of the matter is that you, Tim K., and Rich C. did defend Joe. It is good to know that you are just expressing your genuine opinion, and that there isn't some other motive.
> 
> I think that I should also clarify that I am not about to defend "Red Blades" actions here. I disagree with the way he has behaved.
> 
> ...



You are using the term 'fact' again interchangeably with 'opinion.'  If in comparison to Red Blade's behavior Joe doesn't come out as trollish okay fine, fine I defended him.

I never said anything except that Red Blade has a history of trollish behavior and that the volume of it is about Modern Arnis - which discredits Red Blades claims to JKD/FMA training and only using MA as a supplement.  I did say that it if you read through the posts, they point to undermining people and not about 'friendly discussion' and are no where near 'informative.'

That's all.  I am done with this for now.


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

I don't know why I am responding to "fantasy" when I have a ton of work to do, but here it goes, point by point...



			
				Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> Paul... you are like a date from hell.  NO, I DO NOT WANT TO CALL YOU!!! No, I will not call you.



O.K.....now that was kinda funny.



> You have already offered me more than sufficient reasons not to call you, nor speak with you in private.  Your little quip about a one hand clapping was rude and disrespectful, after I had just posted my reasons, having thoroughly explained myself of where I stand.



Your accusations based on a speculative arguement is a hell of a lot more disrespectful then my sarcasm. The only sufficient reason for us not having a real conversation can only be because you'd rather dabble in fantasy. You'd rather distance yourself from the reality that there are real people behind these keyboards so you can speculate and slam anyone you want without the facts to back you up. Or, perhaps your afraid to talk to me. I don't know the answer, all I know is that until real communication happends, this conversation is the equivalent of my magic user character argueing with your elf character during a D&D game.



> Further more, we have NOTHING to talk about, Paul.  We obviously have a difference of opinions about "Successorship" in FMA.  Dan Anderson has provided us with a quote, which is exactly my stance and what I've been trying to explain.



Once again, idle speculation. You don't know what my opinion is on successorship because I have never stated it! My opinion is closer to yours and Dans (a friend of mine, btw, and we kicked back with a few beers 2 weekends ago; thats what I call "real" communication!   ) on "successorship," but you wouldn't know that because we haven't had any "real" communication yet. My opinions on successorship is that your skill and proficiency in the art determines your ability to "succeed" the art, not titles, rank, heresay, or lineage. Yet, I still have a problem with people spreading things that are untrue. So, I'll defend my teacher, Anciong, and the Balintawak history NOT because of successorship, but because of truth. I think that the spreading of lies is the ultimate "disrespect."

However, you would rather spread B.S. then have a real conversation here, as it would seem. THis is something that I do have a problem with.



> As far as any attacks, if you can even call them that, they were all towards DATU Tim Hartman.  And I said what I said, because I was angered that I had been duped into his little advertising ploy with Red Blade, whose account is now suspended.  Pending the investigation, we will later see about this matter.



I don't care who they were towards, the fact is your witch-hunting. You have no idea what the facts are, yet you make assumptions. "pending investigation, we'll later see about this matter?" See what Joe? Your mind has been made up before the facts are on the table, so what is their to see? 

Once again, in fantasy land, once your against someone it won't matter what facts are brought forth. If the facts prove you wrong, you'll only attempt to turn it against Datu Tim, or whomever you wish. At least, that is what it seems.



> As for the disrespect of Elders (you can view all of my posts), I have never even come close to disrespecting any.  I feel that it is not even our place to mention them in a politicized manner.  Mention them yes, to enlighten ourselves with history, but not to crap on their names.
> 
> I am in L.A. practicing Balintawak.  If I choose not to reveal my address, or my Social Security number, or my phone number, or my mother's maiden name on the internet, that is my choice.  It is not your place to judge me, because I've chosen not to.
> 
> I believe that covers everything.



How about your bank account #?   Don't be ridicules, no one is asking for you to list every aspect of your personal life online. I have only asked for some real communication to occur.

Instead, you continue to indulge in fantasy and destructive behavior. Your choice, I just hope that people will see it for what it is.

PAUL


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> You are using the term 'fact' again interchangeably with 'opinion.'  If in comparison to Red Blade's behavior Joe doesn't come out as trollish okay fine, fine I defended him.
> 
> I never said anything except that Red Blade has a history of trollish behavior and that the volume of it is about Modern Arnis - which discredits Red Blades claims to JKD/FMA training and only using MA as a supplement.  I did say that it if you read through the posts, they point to undermining people and not about 'friendly discussion' and are no where near 'informative.'
> 
> That's all.  I am done with this for now.



I agree with you mostly, except I don't believe I am interchanging fact with opinion. Yes, in comparison to Red Blades behavior, you defended Joe; not a big deal, it's jsut what happened.

I agree, at least from what I have seen in this thread, that Red Blades behavior isn't good.

I think I am done now too, hopefully, for awhile!  :ultracool


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Once again, idle speculation. You don't know what my opinion is on successorship because I have never stated it! My opinion is closer to yours and Dans (a friend of mine, btw, and we kicked back with a few beers 2 weekends ago; thats what I call "real" communication! ) on "successorship".




For this part, I am truly sorry.  I was under the impression that you and DATU Tim Hartman were of the same mind.  I argued my point with the DATU and he argued his.  But, all that was within the bigger picture of commercialization.

We'll see what the verdict is.  And yes, I am somewhat biased.  I do not apologize for this, because this whole thread was far too coincidental.  It took me awhile to realize, but I was not born yesterday.

As for the other points you've wrote, I am not even going to bother rebutting.  But, the sentence below though is some what bothersome.




> I think that the spreading of lies is the ultimate "disrespect."




Are you saying that I am spreading lies? Please inform me what they are.


----------



## Cruentus (Apr 28, 2004)

> Are you saying that I am spreading lies? Please inform me what they are.



No, I am not accusing you. I am just saying that I will defend my art lies (and those who spread them) when nessicary. 

I do think that you are expressing what you know from your point of view. And, as the saying goes, "There is your viewpoint, my viewpoint, and then the truth." 

Example, your viewpoint is that Balintawak was never used for comercial purposes by the old masters. Yet, I know of stories where people weren't trained by certian people unless they could pay. One funny one was where someone came to learn Balintawak, so the teacher handed him a stick, and asked the student to attack. The teacher would block, and tap a pocket to see if he could hear any loose change or a wallet. After he blocked and tapped all the pockets, he said something to the effect of, "Alright. Lesson over. Come back when you have the ability to pay." There were cases when people who couldn't pay would be asked to be a servent for free to some of the teachers. Anciong did not run his club in a comercial manner. Yet, many of the other teachers of the art did.

Does this mean that Balintawak used entirely for capatilistic purposes? No...but to say that payment and commercialization never occured would be not entirely true either.

Am I being disrespectful by saying my side of the story? I don't think so. But this is an example of how my viewpoint differs from yours; an issue better hashed out in person then online to prevent misunderstanding.

Now, the big question: is Datu Hartman and PAUL of the same mind!? :uhyeah: 

The impression may be that we are at times, but we are not. The fact is, we share the same teachers (Remy P. and Ted B.), yet he is my senior. The fact is, I am a member of his organization, and on his advisory board (but understand that my statements are my own here, and I am not speaking officially for the organization). So, if he is being wrongfully attacked, then yes, I feel obligated to say something. Also, our opinion's do coincide in many ways. However, Tim run's his organization very freely in that members are entitled to their own opinions and points of view. Many times Tim and I don't agree. Furthermore, many times Tim's students and affiliates post without Tim's "consent" or knowledge, as we are free to do so. There are times when I have said stuff, and Tim was like, "I can't believe you said that!" THere are times when Tim has recieved phone calls inquiring as to why "Tim's guy" would have said something, when Tim was out of town, offline, and had no idea of what was being said. 

So, there just isn't this coheresing that some people might think. As Gen. Patton has said, "If everyone agree's then no one is thinking!" If we weren't allowed to think in Tim's org., then I wouldn't be a part of it. There are many times that Tim and I disagree, but we choose not to argue over these issues online. I prefer to debate rather then argue.

Last thing: Was this a marketing ploy?

I will say that you need to watch what you say before you slam on the cost of the seminar. NONE of that money as listed would go to Datu Tim. Tim has been very generous with his school, and has let many people use it free of charge for the promotion of the arts; Bram Frank and Jerome Barber are two that come to mind. Tim offered his school to Atillo for free.

So, TIm has no motive to fabricate this thread as a marketing ploy. Furthermore, Tim isn't trying to "comercialize" Balintawak, as it is Atillo who is teaching in a seminar format, and asking payment for his services (not that I am faulting him for this; he should get paid for his time and travels, IMHO).

So once again, Joe, things are not as they seem, and why I think that real communication is important.

 :asian:


----------



## Tgace (Apr 28, 2004)

This seems like a repeating theme around here....words change but the song remains the same. Is entertaining to watch though...like a cage match.


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Example, your viewpoint is that Balintawak was never used for comercial purposes by the old masters. Yet, I know of stories where people weren't trained by certian people unless they could pay. One funny one was where someone came to learn Balintawak, so the teacher handed him a stick, and asked the student to attack. The teacher would block, and tap a pocket to see if he could hear any loose change or a wallet. After he blocked and tapped all the pockets, he said something to the effect of, "Alright. Lesson over. Come back when you have the ability to pay." There were cases when people who couldn't pay would be asked to be a servent for free to some of the teachers. Anciong did not run his club in a comercial manner. Yet, many of the other teachers of the art did.




This story is funny. But, unless you get other people's perspectives then it should remain as heresay. It's just like Atillo's fight with Bacon. It was a great story, the only thing was Atillo's students weren't suppose to tell it to everyone. If they wanted to know the truth, they should've researched more and checked up on other perspectives. This would've been the fair thing to do.

This is obviously Ted Buot's version. So, you need to talk to others to verify it. I respect the fact that you didn't mention names, as Toasty did. Because in the end they (the elders) should sort this out amongst themselves. I'm sure other students of other schools are getting the shyt stories about Ted Buot himself, the same way you're getting shyt stories about others. But we should have the respect to just leave these stories for them to sort out. It's that simple.




> Does this mean that Balintawak used entirely for capatilistic purposes? No...but to say that payment and commercialization never occured would be not entirely true either.


 
As for commercialization, I've already related Teofilo Velez's philosophy in teaching. His philosophy rings true for me because I do not pay for my training anymore. 

I am familiar with Velez's side of the story, but less so with others. Toasty, mentioned making money off Balintawak. I'm sure people tried to sell this Art, but the fact of the matter is no one made money of it in the Philippines. All you have to do is visit where they live in Cebu.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 28, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> No, I am not accusing you. I am just saying that I will defend my art lies (and those who spread them) when nessicary.
> 
> I do think that you are expressing what you know from your point of view. And, as the saying goes, "There is your viewpoint, my viewpoint, and then the truth."
> 
> ...



This is a little long, but I think the point you are trying to make is that ALL comments need to be reserved until the admin make some kind of announcment.  Am I right?  If so, any 'defense of' statements can be misconstrued as admittance of guilt - when nothing is comfirmed yet.

I made posts about the activities of Red Blade and Red Blade ONLY.  I think it would be wise for all comments about Tim H/Red Blade/marketting/character scams to stop.

Red Blade will be identified, the connections or lack will be clarified.  As long as things are dealt with objectively, fairly and blindly (regarding conflict of interests, affiliations....) everything will be fine.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 29, 2004)

Any investigation results as of yet?  It has been about 2 days now and I was wondering if there was an estimated conclusion to this fiasco.  I would like to move on.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 29, 2004)

Later tonite I would expect.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 29, 2004)

Official Statement
"We have completed our investigation of this incident and determined there were no violations of MartialTalk policy. The Red Blade account however has been suspended until such time as the user provides the required name/location information."


----------



## bart (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Official Statement
> "We have completed our investigation of this incident and determined there were no violations of MartialTalk policy. The Red Blade account however has been suspended until such time as the user provides the required name/location information."



Well, I might not agree all the way, but I'm glad that nobody was banned, that was never my intention. My intention was only to show why I doubted Red Blade/Renegade's intentions. 



			
				Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> *Gentlemen....
> Also, please allow the mods to complete their investigation before speculating.
> *



All right, let the speculation begin! Tim, aka Renegade/Red Blade, do you have anything to say? Paul particularly took me to task as disrespectful, illogical, and slanderous in this somewhat controversial thread, specifically concerning my doubt about you. So let's clear the air. What's the story with the Renegade username answering a question to the Red Blade username as if Renegade were Red Blade?


----------



## DoxN4cer (Apr 30, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> All right, let the speculation begin! Tim, aka Renegade/Red Blade, do you have anything to say? Paul particularly took me to task as disrespectful, illogical, and slanderous in this somewhat controversial thread, specifically concerning my doubt about you. So let's clear the air. What's the story with the Renegade username answering a question to the Red Blade username as if Renegade were Red Blade?



Yes, let's clear the air ... wait... let me get my hip waders on.

Tim Kashino


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

Let me start this out witht this statement:  I am exercising my right to express my 'opinion' about this since the results have come out.

That is kind of a weak public statement.  Results of the investigation?  Who did the Red Blade account belong to?  Where were they posting from other than Renegade's account?  How could Renegade reasonably NOT KNOW who Red Blade was, if Red Blade had access to his computer?  People talk about this stuff off the net too.  Why isn't Red Blade (real person - not just the account) not being suspended for wrongfully accessing someone elses account - after lieing about information like training and location?  Why isn't Renegade being held accountable for not maintaining security control over said access?  Who did conduct the investigation - that would not have a conflict of interest themselves since Bob opted to delegate it because of his conflict of interest?

In the past, and yes I am referring to the lambasting that Jerome took on this forum for essentially being suspended (3 months) for sharing account information, the details of investigations and and the suspended person's (Jeromes for the example) reputations of those involved have been paraded through the internet streets as nastily as the physical bodies of those contractors in Iraq had been just recently.

If the reasoning is to 'take the high road' and try and manage this situation with dignity, I applaud such behavior.  BUT, that would mean that those Moderators, Administrators, Advisors and MT staff members who represent the embodiment of the forum rules and are diplomats of the forum owe Jerome and anyone else who has suffered less than "friendly discussion" conditions apologies for the lack of dignified behavior in the past.  Otherwise it will look like unfair and inequitable enforcement of rules and conduct on the behalf of those who are in charge here - much like the behavior in the case of real world rulers has been questioned because they demonstrated favoritism (in this case to those who pay for advertising and are rich in reputation points and titles).


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2004)

Tim,
  Thats a bit unfair, IMHO.

In the past cases of stuff like this, we'd trace the IPs, cross reference a few things, and bam - everything's clear.  Past cases traced primarily back to a work place, and a library.

In this case, it wasn't that easy.  Red Blades IP addresses are dynamic and shared among several others. The key piece is the actual post in question..that is gone. 

Why is it gone?  Because, dumb *** that -I- am, when I saw it it basically said 'whoops' so I deleted it to keep the thread cleaner.  (I usually do delete the 'opps' typs posts when I come across them) At the time, I wasn't aware of a problem.  

Without that key post, and with the ambiguity in the IP addresses, we're forced at this time to write it off as a fluke. The 'how' is being looked into.  This 'user posts as different user' has happened at least once before, so we're looking at the database to try and figure things out.

Now, there is the 'if everythings ok, why is RedBlade suspended?' question.
RedBlades account has no id info.  Since the account was signed up back when we first started the board, it wasn't required then.  Now, our policy towards long time users is, we only ask when theres a problem.  This situation made a problem, so we're waiting on ID info (name/location).

Basically, if its a software or hardware issue, I want to know what is is so I can get it fixed.  If its someone playing some game, then I want to know about it.  I really don't care to see this board used for game playing, and I tend to lose respect for those who do so.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Tim,
> Thats a bit unfair, IMHO.
> 
> In the past cases of stuff like this, we'd trace the IPs, cross reference a few things, and bam - everything's clear.  Past cases traced primarily back to a work place, and a library.
> ...



What are these dynamic locations?  Who were the sharing parties - isn't that a suspendable violation?  Traced back to a library?  So, you're talking about a computer lab environment, and didn't the parties (Tim and Keith) posting as Norshadow step up.  THere were also posts from 'dynamic' locations in that case.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

If it was an oops, and therefore you deleted it after reading it, you knew it was a problem.  Especially if you read it within the context of the thread itself to identify it as an oops.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Let me start this out witht this statement: I am exercising my right to express my 'opinion' about this since the results have come out.
> 
> That is kind of a weak public statement.


Short, terse...exactly the kind to generate questions.

I'm going to hit these 1 by 1 here, questions in red, responce in blue:
Results of the investigation? Still ongoing

Who did the Red Blade account belong to? Unknown at this time, waiting on information.

Where were they posting from other than Renegade's account? Dynamically assigned IP addresses traced back to several locations. 

How could Renegade reasonably NOT KNOW who Red Blade was, if Red Blade had access to his computer? It has not been verified at this time that it was posted from his computer.

Speculation: With a camp this week he's got alot of visitors in town.  They are hotseating around his office PC. I use it often myself while at the school.

People talk about this stuff off the net too. Why isn't Red Blade (real person - not just the account) not being suspended for wrongfully accessing someone elses account - after lieing about information like training and location? 2 points here:
1- We haven't proven they deliberately accessed anothers account.  

Speculation: If it was an accidental login, that doesn't constitute 'wrongful'. Tim like me, has explorer setup to log us in automatically.  If you aren't paying attention to the user name.....

2- Lying to the public is not a policy violation. Older accounts were 'grandfathered' in and not required to 'ID' themselves to the admins, unless there is a problem.  There is now a problem, so we wait on the information.

Why isn't Renegade being held accountable for not maintaining security control over said access? It has not been verified at this time that it was posted from his computer.  If it was someone posting from Tims computer then he needs to get a better grip on his internal security.  Trust me...this point will be beaten in regardless.

Who did conduct the investigation - that would not have a conflict of interest themselves since Bob opted to delegate it because of his conflict of interest
I provided technical research. I am now looking at the database and speaking with a programmer about the 'ifs'. The others involved are the non-wmaa members of the admin team.




> In the past, and yes I am referring to the lambasting that Jerome took on this forum for essentially being suspended (3 months) for sharing account information, the details of investigations and and the suspended person's (Jeromes for the example) reputations of those involved have been paraded through the internet streets as nastily as the physical bodies of those contractors in Iraq had been just recently.


There is a difference in intents.
1 case was an extended series of event and self promotion, the other Q&A from a yet undetermined source.



> If the reasoning is to 'take the high road' and try and manage this situation with dignity, I applaud such behavior. BUT, that would mean that those Moderators, Administrators, Advisors and MT staff members who represent the embodiment of the forum rules and are diplomats of the forum owe Jerome and anyone else who has suffered less than "friendly discussion" conditions apologies for the lack of dignified behavior in the past. Otherwise it will look like unfair and inequitable enforcement of rules and conduct on the behalf of those who are in charge here - much like the behavior in among real world rulers has been questioned.


The short summary is is that at this time, we can't see a policy violation. 
*If its a software glitch, then it can be located and fixed.
*If its Tim playing a game, then he's an idiot.
*If its a student or visitor who used the system, then Tim needs to practice better security.
*If additional research determines someone is guilty of something, then it will be dealt with.

We haven't worked 3 years to build something to let some silly game playing rip it apart.  We also live in a society that believes 'innocent until proven guilty'.  There are some here who will not be satisfied with anything less than a 'guilty' verdict.  Nothing I or anyone else here can convince you otherwise. Presenting the evidence to you would mean nothing - you will scream 'tainted'. 

The worst part of this is, we've spent more time researching this issue, than the previous 2 combined. I'm as frustrated as everyone else that we can't point and execute and move on.

Trust in karma.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> What are these dynamic locations? Who were the sharing parties - isn't that a suspendable violation? Traced back to a library? So, you're talking about a computer lab environment, and didn't the parties (Tim and Keith) posting as Norshadow step up. THere were also posts from 'dynamic' locations in that case.


Actually, the library issue was another case.  

In the Norshadow case, after the offending account was closed, both were I believe informed they could signup under their own accounts.  Tim did so (not certain about Keith).

What are the locations?
NE US and part of the lower Midwest US, with at least 1 access from the Vancouver area.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2004)

The opps in question basically said "wrong quote"
and that was about it.

In hindsight, if I had been doing much more than speed reading the thread to see if folks were behaving, yeah...the context might have been clearer.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Official Statement
> "We have completed our investigation of this incident and determined there were no violations of MartialTalk policy. The Red Blade account however has been suspended until such time as the user provides the required name/location information."



This statement implies that the investigation is over, not ongoing.

I am not looking for a 'guilty' only a reasonable explanation.

You contradict yourself in answering questions because in one, you say that lying is not a violation of policy, yet in my book lying would be 'disrespectful' communication - which is a violation of the forum rules.

Either from Renegade's computer or not, the post was from Renegade's account.  Program error?  Come on, I have not read a single post in the Admin support threads warning us that this has ever or that it was a danger.  

If the log in was from Red Blade's own computer, they would have to log in, either automatically/manually with a personal account or intentionally access the Renegade account.  How would that access be possible, unless, like you mentioned before, it was a mod/admin who had access the account and changed the password to steal the ID - but then the original account holder wouldn't have access anymore because of the new password that they don't know?  That would raise some warning bells in my mind.

If the investigation is on going, then I will reserve comment, but from the above quote, it sounded done to me.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> The opps in question basically said "wrong quote"
> and that was about it.
> 
> In hindsight, if I had been doing much more than speed reading the thread to see if folks were behaving, yeah...the context might have been clearer.



There was no quote in the post that has since been deleted.  Refer to the Bart post that started this whole thing.  Even speed reading, along with the 'oops' issue, the fact that Renegade was seemingly posting a response as if from Red Blade is pretty clear.  What quote?


----------



## DoxN4cer (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Tim,
> Thats a bit unfair, IMHO...



Lets talk briefly about unfair, Bob. Now that somebody close to you, who by the way is a forum advisor and former administrator, has been implicated for breaking the rules of your e-forum. The same rules don't seem to apply as before. 

I find it hard to believe that Tim had no idea that Red Blade accessed his terminal, and doesn't even know who Red Blade is. Paul martin has posed some very pertinet issues that rebuff the apologies that you and Paul Janulis have offered on behalf of Tim Hartman. 

Nobody logs on to my system without me knowing about it. I'm sure that's the case with your PC and that of nearly everyone - if not absolutely everyone on the forum. The explanations I've read here equate to the ramblings of a child caught with his hand  in the cookie jar and still says that he didn't eat any cookies... even with crumbs and chocolate all over his lips.     

Back to fairness... The manner in which the Norshadow business was handled was very public and handle as delicatly as a jackhammer.  This issue should be as public as the last. It should be just as openly embarrassing, but then again the person in question is your teacher.  

Hey Bob, there are other martial arts instructors in WNY. You don't have to worry about pissing one of them off. You can always find another one. 

I hold you accountable, Bob. You created this site. You maintain it. You allow things like this to go on, and you choose to cover it up. Don't ever condescend to speak to me about what's fair. 

Tim Kashino
____________________________________________
"When life gives you lemons, ask for tequila and salt"


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> There is a difference in intents.
> 1 case was an extended series of event and self promotion, the other Q&A from a yet undetermined source.
> Trust in karma.



I think the number of posters who recognized the suspiciousness of Red Blade posts makes it clear that the intent was to create some defamation, character issues and political maneuvering...


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 30, 2004)

This is *arnisador* (Jeff Leader) posting from Mr. Hartman's account. The camp opens in two hours so I'll be brief. While I was an admin, we had a situation occur where people's posts showed up under the wrong name. It was limited in scope. We found it and Mr. Hubbard fixed it. We didn't make a big deal about it because it was limited in scope, both with respect to number of users and in time; we didn't want to broadcast difficulties and raise concern unnecessarily; and there is always the concern that someone could try to exploit it somehow (possible security issue). My recollection is that we had to fix a quote somewhere manually but that that was the only publicly visible issue after the problem was fixed on the software side. However, if someone received a mistaken notice then we wouldn't have known unless they brought it to our attention. To the best of my recollection, no one did.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> This statement implies that the investigation is over, not ongoing.
> 
> I am not looking for a 'guilty' only a reasonable explanation.
> 
> You contradict yourself in answering questions because in one, you say that lying is not a violation of policy, yet in my book lying would be 'disrespectful' communication - which is a violation of the forum rules.


The willingness to disclose location is up to each individual.  Publically stating something other than what we have on file is not a violation.



> Either from Renegade's computer or not, the post was from Renegade's account. Program error? Come on, I have not read a single post in the Admin support threads warning us that this has ever or that it was a danger.


Its not.  I said it is something that happened once (out of over 200,000 posts) to my recolection.  I am looking at all options.

And...actually....how many of you folks actually read the announcements forum? Read counts say, not alot.  Its not there, I'm just saying.



> If the log in was from Red Blade's own computer, they would have to log in, either automatically/manually with a personal account or intentionally access the Renegade account. How would that access be possible, unless, like you mentioned before, it was a mod/admin who had access the account and changed the password to steal the ID - but then the original account holder wouldn't have access anymore because of the new password that they don't know? That would raise some warning bells in my mind.


If the issue is not software or hardware, then it would have to be 1 logging in and not logging out.  That situation has happened in the past, often.



> If the investigation is on going, then I will reserve comment, but from the above quote, it sounded done to me.


We are waiting on ID info.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> There was no quote in the post that has since been deleted. Refer to the Bart post that started this whole thing. Even speed reading, along with the 'oops' issue, the fact that Renegade was seemingly posting a response as if from Red Blade is pretty clear. What quote?


What Bart posted, was not what I saw when I deleted the post. As was indicated, when (I think it was Bart) said, when they went to the post it had been edited.

I didn't get the notice that bart did, as I do not have this thread subscribed to, so I didn't see the original unedited post.  Just what I stated.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Lets talk briefly about unfair, Bob. Now that somebody close to you, who by the way is a forum advisor and former administrator, has been implicated for breaking the rules of your e-forum. The same rules don't seem to apply as before.


The same rules do apply.



> I find it hard to believe that Tim had no idea that Red Blade accessed his terminal, and doesn't even know who Red Blade is. Paul martin has posed some very pertinet issues that rebuff the apologies that you and Paul Janulis have offered on behalf of Tim Hartman.


I can not speak for PJ.  Additionally, I am offering information and some speculation.  Not apologies. 



> Nobody logs on to my system without me knowing about it. I'm sure that's the case with your PC and that of nearly everyone - if not absolutely everyone on the forum. The explanations I've read here equate to the ramblings of a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar and still says that he didn't eat any cookies... even with crumbs and chocolate all over his lips.


Right now, Tim has a camp going on.  The instructors and some of the guests have been using the system there.  The question of did Tim know say, I was using his system?  Of course.  Does he know if 'Red Blade" did, is a different question.



> Back to fairness... The manner in which the Norshadow business was handled was very public and handle as delicatly as a jackhammer. This issue should be as public as the last. It should be just as openly embarrassing, but then again the person in question is your teacher.


Several hundred self-promoting posts make for a difference, as does a public disclosure.  The Norshadow issue of which you were a key player was ripped open after a public admission of guilt by those involved.  So far, we have speculation, no admission.  



> Hey Bob, there are other martial arts instructors in WNY. You don't have to worry about pissing one of them off. You can always find another one.


My art is Modern Arnis. The next nearest Modern Arnis accredited school is to my knowledge in Columbus Ohio and Philidelphia PA.



> I hold you accountable, Bob. You created this site. You maintain it. You allow things like this to go on, and you choose to cover it up. Don't ever condescend to speak to me about what's fair.
> 
> Tim Kashino


Be careful on what you claim Tim. If you have proof of a cover up, then present it..otherwise, I suggest you withhold the libelous comments until the end.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2004)

Now, one small point I'd like to make.
I have tried -not- to bring up the Norshadow debacle, repeatedly. Everything that needed saying on that was said last July.

The short summary is that Dr. Barber, Tim K. and at least 1 other individual did conspire to both publically and privately assault Tim Hartman, as well as promote several events of Dr. B's including the Symposium.  The "Norshadow" postings were primarily done by a single dedicated IP address from Dr. B's place of employment, as well as traced back several years into ED.

This issue here is we have -1- post that appears to have been posted under the wrong name, a question of identity, A question of intent and a question of promotion.

Why was it under the wrong name?
Under research, but we see no violations of policy here.

Who is it?
Waiting on information.

Intent?
Ya got me there. No clue.

Promotion?
Tim's always been rather blunt in his promotion of events.  Burying it in the middle like this, doesn't strike me as intentional promotion.  Poor judgement maybe, but not self-promotional intent.

As I said initially, the conclusion is that no violation of policy has occured.
We are looking into the user issues.  I don't have time to dig through several gigabytes of logs right now as I'm due at a camp in an hour.


Now, all that said, I do have to get going.
Can we please save the character assassinations until we have more information to present?


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> As I said initially, the conclusion is that no violation of policy has occured.
> We are looking into the user issues.  I don't have time to dig through several gigabytes of logs right now as I'm due at a camp in an hour.
> 
> 
> ...



I think the confusion began with your statement that it the investigation was done, now it isn't.  You had two days to dig through things - or at least those you appointed.  I, personally, don't really care about the events in your other life that will delay this investigation further.  You have made statements that you were done, yet the conclusions now seem inconclusive.


----------



## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> This issue here is we have -1- post that appears to have been posted under the wrong name, a question of identity, A question of intent and a question of promotion.
> 
> Why was it under the wrong name?
> Under research, but we see no violations of policy here.
> ...



My reference to the Norshadow incident is not about the validity of the suspension, I know I digressed though.  It is about the public display around it, the sharp and detailed research into it and the involvement of members of this MT forum who are also MT staff in some capacity lambasting Jerome over it about totally unrelated issues as well as the 'double jeapordy' treatment of it - administratively suspended AND public humilation.  

Private issues, such as money (which through various posts it is agreed generally in poor taste to discuss publicly), business associations/good old boy networking.... were torn open regarding Jerome once the blood was in the water....

Now, there is a lack of evidence, a deleted 'oops' that is pivotal to the conclusive identification of RED BLADE (i.e. mistrial by screw up), and a reversal on the conclusiveness of the investigation (still haven't identified the non-wmaa members involved.  There are other possible conflicts of interest other than membership in the wmaa - busniess, friendship...)

I am frustrated by the lack of "outrage" over this like there was over the Jerome/Norshadow issue.  If it is a fox in the henhouse type of thing, I am amazed that there haven't been expressions of even more intense outrage than when it is an outsider.... 

As far as Tim and promotion - Red Blade posts don't just point to a promotion opportunity of events (which I don't really care about), but of Tim himself and his status in Martial arts over others for what ever reason.  Red Blade has a habit of connecting dots 1-19 out of 20 on these types of things.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 30, 2004)

```
This is arnisador (Jeff Leader) posting from Mr. Hartman's account. The camp opens in two hours so I'll be brief. While I was an admin, we had a situation occur where people's posts showed up under the wrong name. It was limited in scope. We found it and Mr. Hubbard fixed it. We didn't make a big deal about it because it was limited in scope, both with respect to number of users and in time; we didn't want to broadcast difficulties and raise concern unnecessarily; and there is always the concern that someone could try to exploit it somehow (possible security issue). My recollection is that we had to fix a quote somewhere manually but that that was the only publicly visible issue after the problem was fixed on the software side. However, if someone received a mistaken notice then we wouldn't have known unless they brought it to our attention. To the best of my recollection, no one did.This is arnisador (Jeff Leader) posting from Mr. Hartman's account. The camp opens in two hours so I'll be brief. While I was an admin, we had a situation occur where people's posts showed up under the wrong name. It was limited in scope. We found it and Mr. Hubbard fixed it. We didn't make a big deal about it because it was limited in scope, both with respect to number of users and in time; we didn't want to broadcast difficulties and raise concern unnecessarily; and there is always the concern that someone could try to exploit it somehow (possible security issue). My recollection is that we had to fix a quote somewhere manually but that that was the only publicly visible issue after the problem was fixed on the software side. However, if someone received a mistaken notice then we wouldn't have known unless they brought it to our attention. To the best of my recollection, no one did.
```

My computer is sometimes used by myslef and my two sons, all of us belong to MT, as well as people that visit me that may belong to MT.  Yes, there have been a couple of times when one of us has inadvertently posted under someones elses login name. We contacted Kaith and the other admins. to correct the problem  or immidatly deleted the post and reloged in to post under the correct name. It happens sometimes when multiple users are on the same computer durring a short period of time. ( My problem solved my sons now have there own places)
 Speaking as a member of the forum not as as mod I ask that we give this issue a rest untill RED BLADE identifies himslef properly . If not he/she is suspended and will not be posting anyways.
  Any posts I have ever read here by Mr. Hartman have been open and above board. He speaks for himslef rather well, weither agreeing , disagreeing or explaining a situation or question. Now I have never met him so I am not under the influence of him or his organisation so this is a personal view based on my time in the forum.
  Now I have a couple questions on  Balintawak.  What seems to be the most effective fighting range in this system? is it close where locks and fininshing moves can be applied or is it a mid range art where sliceing and diceing are most effective?   Is there one blade  that is preferred by the students or is it an individual thing where some use the short (3-6) blade while other prefer to use the longer blades all the time? We have seen from the given history that Balintawak derived from another art or a combination of arts taught by varrious teachers then put togeather again as one art, so my question is are there any major arts still being taught today that have grown out of this system. (This last question is for information and knowledge only not to start anything)
 Sheldon


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## bart (Apr 30, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> We have seen from the given history that Balintawak derived from another art or a combination of arts taught by varrious teachers then put togeather again as one art, so my question is are there any major arts still being taught today that have grown out of this system. (This last question is for information and knowledge only not to start anything)
> Sheldon



Balintawak grew out of the Doce Pares club. Doce Pares had many factions or sub-clubs within the main club and so had many distinct styles within it. Before GM Bacon split from Doce Pares, his style was one of the factions within Doce Pares. Since that time, Doce Pares has continued to exist and has evolved in many different directions, some of those are the styles of GM Momoy, GM Cacoy, and GM Diony.


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## Tgace (Apr 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Why is it gone?  Because, dumb *** that -I- am, when I saw it it basically said 'whoops' so I deleted it to keep the thread cleaner.  (I usually do delete the 'opps' typs posts when I come across them) At the time, I wasn't aware of a problem.



Im hoping to keep my speculations out of this whole thing...but you have to admit that this kinda seems a little suspicious. I do give you a lot of credit for coming out and admitting it though. If there was some sort of "cover-up" going on you didnt have to admit that at all.


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Apr 30, 2004)

I guess since the investigation is still ongoing... we'll just sit and wait, until there's a definitely resolution.


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## bart (Apr 30, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> This is *arnisador* (Jeff Leader) posting from Mr. Hartman's account. The camp opens in two hours so I'll be brief.





			
				Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Account Policy:
> 1- One account per member
> 2- Keep your account information private (password).
> 3- Purposefully violating the security of the forum or allowing someone else to use your account may result in suspension or ban.



I'm not sure, but doesn't this seem to be a violation right there? Why would arnisador log in as Tim? Of course to show that it can be done, but isn't it a violation of the board's policy as stated above? Seemingly, it only applies to a select few. I don't mean to snipe, but it certainly appears unfair for someone to post as another person and get grief and then for another to violate the rules and escape unscathed. I want to state again that I don't want a user banned, but I think the rules should be adhered to by all parties.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 30, 2004)

For the sake of research....

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/search.php?do=finduser&u=53


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 30, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I'm not sure, but doesn't this seem to be a violation right there? Why would arnisador log in as Tim?



This is *arnisador*, using Mr. Hartman's account again. I am using his account with his permission, because if I use mine then all my new post markers will reset and I haven't time to read all the fora I usually do. I want my new post markers to be there when I return home.

Speaking as the person who wrote the rules on this matter when I was an admin, I don't consider what I'm doing a violation. Of course, my opinion on the matter is now irrelevant. Mr. Hubbard is in the room with me right now--I could reach out and hit him with a stick!--and he concurs.


Bob piping in here a moment....it is not a violation as the use is not of a malicious nature.  The key here is #3 "3- *Purposefully violating the security *of the forum or allowing someone else to use your account may result in suspension or ban.". Both Jeff and I are in the middle of a seminar, Tims system is logged in and so as to avoid a misunderstanding, loss of post markers, etc. we are identifying our usage as such. I'll address the rest ASAP, but at the moment have to get back on the floor. By logging in from here, this also avoids the possible disclosure of our info to the event attendees.


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## loki09789 (Apr 30, 2004)

arnisador and all:

this exercise in posting as is entertaining, but it doesn't take but a few more seconds of integrity to log off Renegade and log onto your own account, albeit from another site.  As far as all the 'flora' that you will miss, that is the price of integrity and good character - it isn't the easy way, nor is it lazy.

As far as it not coming to the attention of the other members of the event.... if that is a concern now, could it also have been a concern before the event, thus a benefit of the inconclusive conclusion and the two day delay in any announcement of any kind?

For something that is firstly not proven or conclusive and secondly being presented as a possible computer glitch there seems to be a lot of attention/intention displayed to belittle the violation of forum rules by posting under another account.  Funny how the rule makers are also the interpreters/regulators...

Post your results in a timely fashion, be fair in your punitive actions and share your findings openly and clearly and things will be fine.  All this stuff smacks of defense of Tim instead of clarifying/identifying Red Blade before the results have been found.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 1, 2004)

Terse cuz, I'm beat.

There are more issues than this one being looked at. Privacy and security issues at the least.

The rules makers *are* the rules interpretors.  Rules are regularly revisited and revised as this forum evolves.

Full results will be posted ASAP. We are waiting on several replies to inquiries sent out.

Now, I'm crashing.


----------



## Emptyglass (May 1, 2004)

Hi all:

If the folks conducting this investigation can't come up with a better explanation than what sounds to me like an internet version of "my dog ate my homework" I don't know what else there is to expect.

In the case of a conspriracy, there's no advantage to the Admins or Forum Mods digging too deeply, they might turn over a rock they didn't want to. Just hang back, blame the whole thing on data corruption or mechanical error and gloss it over until it's forgotten. Probably the best strategy in the case of something dishonest considering the circumstances.

Who knows, maybe it was just a data error. Personally, considering the circumstances, I certainly doubt it. Since the real Red Blade (if there ever was a single person who used that username and no other exclusively) seems to think they need to be as anonymous as someone on the grassy knoll, I guess we'll never really know.

Hey Red Blade, if you're out there, be a man (or woman), come out and clean up the mess you made. Explain to us witless, internet-riding fools what the real deal is and prove some of us wrong that you're not just an internet sock puppet.

Oh well, no one ever said anything was fair, right? Just like the rest of life.

Thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion in any case. Just like the anus, everyone has one.

In regards to Balintawak, I certainly wouldn't thumb my nose at anyone just because their "lineage" didn't live up to some pre-conceived standard I had in my head. Good fighters and teachers are good fighters and teachers, regardless of where and how they got their knowledge. I certainly respect the skill more than the pedigree any day. If I need a watch dog, I'd rather have a smart and vicious street mutt who can do the job than an inbred, purebreed with a long pedigree who just rolls over when a burglar comes over the fence (Note: I'm not making a reference to anyone's instructor here, just making a general statement - there are great fighters and teachers out there with very honorable backgrounds and also people with huge pedigrees on paper that aren't worth a tinker's damn).

Thanks,

Richard Curren


----------



## Dan Anderson (May 1, 2004)

Hi Guys,

Now that this is an official food fight as to identity and rules, it would seem the easiest way for it to end is to have Red Blade come out and say who he/she is and end it all or have the thread locked for constant repetition.  This looks like another Lamont Norshadow thing all over again, although it appears it's pointed in the other direction.  I suppose it's better than getting upset as to who is slamming which GM but it's time to lay it to rest, folks, before the other forums out there start pointing fingers and snickering.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## DoxN4cer (May 1, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Terse cuz, I'm beat.
> 
> There are more issues than this one being looked at. Privacy and security issues at the least.
> 
> ...




Transalation:

"We make up the rules as we go along, and bend the rules for our buddies. We'll post the results of our so-called investigation when we get our stories strainght and not one minute sooner. Now I and the rest of the faction in WNY (and a few other out of state cronies) are going to have a few beers so we can do just that."


----------



## DoxN4cer (May 1, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Trust in karma.




I do.


----------



## DoxN4cer (May 1, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Be careful on what you claim Tim. If you have proof of a cover up, then present it..otherwise, I suggest you withhold the libelous comments until the end.



So the investigation is the investigation over, or not?

Should take some vacation time to go home and help you with it? Many hands make for light work, Bob. I could interview everyone who may have had access to Tim's computer(s), and really get to the bottom of things.  Of course that would depend on the truthfulness of those indiviuals. In that case maybe it woldn't go anywhere.

Now as for posting on other people accounts... how do we know that it's really you and Jeff Leader posting on Tim's account? His access security seems to have been bybassed in the past. What makes this different? How do we, the public, know that it's not Tim or somebody else speaking for you and Jeff? Account sharing (mailcious or otherwise) is against your rules after all. 

Tim Kashino

"When life gives you lemons, ask for tequila and salt."


----------



## DoxN4cer (May 1, 2004)

Gotta fly out for some business. Be back in a couple of weeks. It's been... interesting to say the least. I'll look reading the results of the "investgation" upon my return.  

Tim Kashino


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## Bob Hubbard (May 1, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> So the investigation is the investigation over, or not
> 
> Should take some vacation time to go home and help you with it? Many hands make for light work, Bob. I could interview everyone who may have had access to Tim's computer(s), and really get to the bottom of things. Of course that would depend on the truthfulness of those indiviuals. In that case maybe it woldn't go anywhere.


Somehow, the mental image of you in an inspectors hat, note pad in hand asking "So, where were you on the night of the 15th?" just made me chuckle.  thanks. 



> Now as for posting on other people accounts... how do we know that it's really you and Jeff Leader posting on Tim's account? His access security seems to have been bybassed in the past. What makes this different? How do we, the public, know that it's not Tim or somebody else speaking for you and Jeff? Account sharing (mailcious or otherwise) is against your rules after all.
> 
> Tim Kashino


It was us. The rules are revisited and tweaked as we evolve. That section may be clarified as a result of other discussions that tie into this threads questions.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 1, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Guys,
> 
> Now that this is an official food fight as to identity and rules, it would seem the easiest way for it to end is to have Red Blade come out and say who he/she is and end it all or have the thread locked for constant repetition.  This looks like another Lamont Norshadow thing all over again, although it appears it's pointed in the other direction.  I suppose it's better than getting upset as to who is slamming which GM but it's time to lay it to rest, folks, before the other forums out there start pointing fingers and snickering.
> 
> ...


 Dan,
  According to a different thread here, they already do. 

I've gotten some suggestions on how to recover the post I deleted...I'm hoping to test the procedure on my test system Sunday. (I'd prefer to not work directly on the live database with unfamiliar techniques..as important as crucifying someone is to a few folks, their desires aren't worth me hosing MT over.)


----------



## lhommedieu (May 1, 2004)

Dan Anderson wrote:



> Now that this is an official food fight as to identity and rules, it would seem the easiest way for it to end is to have Red Blade come out and say who he/she is and end it all or have the thread locked for constant repetition.



A long time ago, when I was living in a college fraternity, I was witness to the following:

My close friend, who may have been under the influence of any or all of the various substances floating around college in the mid to late '70's, was attempting to stuff several cats into a large double-sided picnic basket (no joke).  As soon as one cat was caught and put in, the others....well, you get the idea.  

Not that anyone here is under the influence, but this thread is starting to have an "Animal House" flavor to it.  And yes - it is a topic for discussion on at least one other martial arts forum.

Since "Red Blade" hasn't stepped forward yet, it seems unlikely that he/she ever will.  Time to move on...

Best,

Steve


----------



## Dan Anderson (May 1, 2004)

lhommedieu said:
			
		

> but this thread is starting to have an "Animal House" flavor to it.
> 
> Since "Red Blade" hasn't stepped forward yet, it seems unlikely that he/she ever will.  Time to move on...
> 
> ...



*Steve!!!*
You mind reader!!!  That's exactly the picture I had inmind when I stated food fight!  An extra 50 points to Gryffindor!  C'mon Red, show up and tell us to move on.  Puhleeze.   

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson (May 1, 2004)

As long as the investigation is taking place, I demand you guys to look into Ommarosa's part in this!  Justice, I say, dammit!

Suspiciously yours,
Dan


----------



## bloodwood (May 1, 2004)

*I'm Spartacus*

Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one.


----------



## bart (May 2, 2004)

This is bart posting as bart with bart's permission...oh I almost forgot, that's what my name and avatar are for on the top left side of every single one of my posts. 

For me, one of the major attractions to Martial Talk, was that it seemed that the rules enforced an honesty. Establishing honesty and the trust that comes with it is something that made this place an enlightening and enriching place to discuss things that we are passionate about. It made people with some actual stuff worth saying, more willing to participate in the promotion and development of the arts. By interpreting the rules as you are, the trust is being undermined and the environment is being despoiled. In discussion offline a friend brought up the Martial Talk Black Belt rankings. He posed the question: *"Can you believe in Renegade's Martial Talk Master Black Belt ranking? You don't even know anymore if he earned it because at least 4 people have posted as him."* So far it's Kaith, Arnisador, Tim himself, and an as yet unidentified party maybe going by Red Blade. My friend is right. And that's just the surface stuff. It brings doubt into everything that Tim says and as a matter of fact everything that everybody says. 

Now I'm not going to stop talking, but I am going to continue to play by the rules in an honorable way. Fair play is one of those things that can only truly be enforced at the personal level by an individual to oneself. Assistance at the top end is helpful, but ultimately it's up to the individual to be that type of person. I for one am who I say I am every time my name is in the upper left of these posts.  

Now onto this log in log out business, who exactly do you think that you're talking to? I used to work in tech support helping people of all levels of skill and intelligence to log in and out of web pages and different applications. It's easy and quick, the fastest two-step out there. The class of excuses that have been offered is ridiculous at best. Playing by the rules is more difficult than NOT playing by them. That's why it's a test of your capabilities and character. That's why any game begins to be a drag when you have a cheat, especially one that has impunity. To trade your honesty within the given rules so that your post markers won't be reset is a poor deal. To bend a rule for some while expecting others to follow it is at the least unfair. 

I would suggest, that if you want this board to continue to grow and to continue to be a place worth coming to, then you enforce the rules the same for everybody including yourselves. we all know whose show this is and I can't force your hand, but as an active and paying member, I offer my suggestion.


----------



## Tgace (May 2, 2004)

So, with these "new rules" in the works...will it be OK for me to open a new, non-personal ID so I can post some contraversial topics without it reflecting badly on the reputation I have attempted to build on this ID... that has my name, profession and location associated with it? 

I believe that has been going on with a few ID's here. Im not about to make any accusations without evidence, but if you look at the posting history of some of the "bland" ID's here you begin to see some patterns of behavior, topic and political leanings...many of these seem to surface only when certain topics or people come to the center of attention.


----------



## loki09789 (May 2, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I would suggest, that if you want this board to continue to grow and to continue to be a place worth coming to, then you enforce the rules the same for everybody including yourselves. we all know whose show this is and I can't force your hand, but as an active and paying member, I offer my suggestion.



Bart,

Two things I find myself saying over and over here on this and other forums:

1.  Integrity is what you do when no one is looking or the are seeminlgly no consequence.

2.  A person's character is reveals more by how they act after making a mistake than by the mistake itself.

All this jumping on the defensive and techie excuses BEFORE (or is it after) a conclusive statement is made speaks volumes all up and down the food chain.... I have mentioned how the rep point system here creates an internet world of haves and have not in the past.  So much of fair and equal/democratic voting power as reputation points Mr. Bush, I mean Hubbard, when you are the one who has the chance to exercise the role of leadership by example.

Dan,
Agreed, Red Blade ID needs to be revealed - either by the Admin or personally.  It speaks volumes about your character that you are taking the high road on this even though Red Blade was one of the major critics of your MA 80 system and your rank within that system.  How is the book work going?  How about a book on Martial arts/instructor leadership philosophy with all this good presentation going on from you, I think thing like this fiasco show a serious lack of it in the trade as a whole.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 2, 2004)

Gentlemen, 
  I think things are getting just a bit ridiculous here.

We are now entering the realm of insults, grasping at straws, and attempting to equate ranks and karma on a martial arts board with reality.  I think its just getting silly.

Deleted post has been restored.
* Note, this was the edited version, not the original which is listed in Barts post.

Based on advice from the vBulletin folks we found and repaired some small issues with the database. 

There is not enough evidence to identify Red Blade at this time.  The account has been closed due to lack of responce by the owner to our inquiries.  If the owner contacts us and supplies the requested information, we will reopen their account.  This is also not a determination that RB did anything wrong here, other than not respond to our request within a reasonable time.

The IP addresses used by Red Blade do not overlap those used by Renegade.  They do however overlap several other members addresses here.
The addresses trace to AOL, Level3 Communications and Adelphia.
1 IP has 35 members associated with it, covering about 5 states.

At this time, in our opinion, its over.  People can believe what they want.  For those so bent out of shape thinking this is another 'Norshadow' issue, there is 1 important difference.  Jerome Barber publically identified Tim Kashino and an individual named Keith (last name not known?) as Norshadow.  No one has identified or come forward regarding "Red Blade".  Until that happens, or new information turns up, this is where the mystery lies.


----------



## Tgace (May 2, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> At this time, in our opinion, its over. People can believe what they want. For those so bent out of shape thinking this is another 'Norshadow' issue, there is 1 important difference. Jerome Barber publically identified Tim Kashino and an individual named Keith (last name not known?) as Norshadow. No one has identified or come forward regarding "Red Blade". Until that happens, or new information turns up, this is where the mystery lies.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52596#post52596



> I can't tell you about the others but, I was in Toronto for a seminar with GM R. Presas and Datu Hartman was also teaching. At the end of the seminar GM Presas announced that Datu Hartman was one of his successors. If I'm not mistaken Jaybacca mentioned this in an other thread a while ago also.
> 
> R.B.


Perhaps Mr. Hartman remembers which of his students went to this seminar with him and he could narrow down the field from that.


----------



## loki09789 (May 2, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Deleted post has been restored.
> * Note, this was the edited version, not the original which is listed in Barts post.
> 
> Based on advice from the vBulletin folks we found and repaired some small issues with the database.
> ...



Yes, Jerome stepped up and said who was posting on Martial Talk under the Norshadow account.  They were not suspended for sharing account info, Jerome was suspended for three months for account sharing.  Paul Janulis made a direct and blatant threat and was suspended for how long?  Before this turns into "Paul is bashing Janulis again" read this carefully, I am taking YOU to task for your claims and accountability here.... just exposing the darkness Bob. 

I really didn't want to bring this up and was hoping that some reasonable, responsible behavior would show up.  Unfortunately, Bob, that idealstic hope that martial arts training would instill something more than just learning a better way to kick and punch isn't holding true here because I don't see much democracy, fair and equal, or integrity going on here.

I wrote the below letter after a phone conversation over this.  In that phonecon, I was informed that Red Blade was one of Tim Hartman's students who had, unknown to Tim H, been posting as Red Blade and had used Tim's computer from the school location.  This time, Red Blade had failed to log out of Tim H's RENEGADE account and the intended post appeared.

*"I hesitate to write this with the positive tone of our recent exchanges, but I feel that I have to be honest here.

I thought about the explanation that you were given about this Renegade/Red Blade business and read through the posts.  There really is no way that Tim H can claim ignorance in this from what I see. 

Firstly, Red Blade - if a student/associate of some kind - would have probably discussed some of his/her posts in the course of class/social interaction at the very least.  At the most, Tim would have introduced said person to the MT site and questions about 'what is your handle?' and discussions about common threads, topics and such would have occurred.  

Secondly, Tim is an advisor and former administrator, if the account screening were happening as Bob has claimed, then the ID, or at least posting ID source as a Buffalo computer, Tim's Own computer specifically, would have shown up earlier than this and Tim would have been one of those from the board who verified new member accounts for those claiming FMA background.

Thirdly, the time hits for Red Blade don't jive with class times or regular business hours for a student/associate to be hanging around and asking for access to Tim's computer.

All that said, posting between Red Blade and Tim are very similar in style and length and even the errors that either come from typos or speed.  Someone can copy style, but mistakes are habitual and hard to mimic so closely.

Also, as you mentioned [edited/omitted by Paul Martin], Tim/Renegade either working with Red Blade or posting as Red Blade could be considered motive on Tims part to undermine Atillos credibility and reassert Teds Balintawak position.  [edited/omitted by Paul Martin], the general Red Blade tone is to assert Ted Buot as the most credible and identifiable Balitawak successor.  That doesnt seem consistent with Red Blades comment about reading an article and wanting to just verify info.

There may be some specific issues that can be disputed but the general observations cant be thrown out.

Am I judging Tim?  No.  I have my own skeletons, issues from my past.  I will make mistakes in the future as well.  I am writing this to let you know that this claim sounds thin, dishonest and  with the amount of bashing that Jerome took for basically sharing account info  this is hypocritical.  Tim, as some have said about Bush as President, should stand up and take responsibility.  I am sad that this kind of embarrassment occurs at all.  Maybe the gamesmanship really needs to stop in general.

I hope that our bridging, decent communications and common respect  [edited/omitted by Paul Martin]  will keep your mind open to my reasoning on this issue."*

Now, either this stuff was true making the quote above by Bob a lie, or the stuff was a lie and was used to feed misinformation - in which case someone's own loyalties were abused.  Either way, it ain't good.

Waiting to see where my dissent will be quarrenteened to....


----------



## Cruentus (May 3, 2004)

Hi everyone. I haven't posted here in about a week because of how retarded this whole thing has gotten. But, since I am involved, and my name has been dropped umpteen times since my last post, I guess I better explain my perspective on things.

#1. Since Paul M. has mentioned it, I was the one who talked with Paul M. on the phone when Bart brought attention to what occured (and the thread was temporarily locked). I appreciate that Paul M. didn't mention who he talked to on the phone to protect me, but I have nothing to hide here, so I don't mind saying that it was me.

Paul M. asked me what happened when the thread was locked. I told him that it appeared that someone posted from Renegades computer, and that this Red Blade person may have been a student of Renegades all along. Why did I say that? Because this is what it looked like, and this is what everyone thought AT FIRST. However, the admins. still had to investigate the situation, so I DID say that I did not know for sure, and I DID say that we would have to wait for the admins to investigate before we could really tell what occured.

Now that the admins. have investigated, it would appear from Bob's last post that "Red Blade" has been traced to IP addresses in 5 different states, and that Renegades computer is NOT one of those addresses. So...apparently what I thought, and what many were willing to speculate, was not true. "Red Blade," at least, did not post from Tim's computer as many of us all thought.

I'll buy this for a number of different reasons, but mainly because I trust Bob, and the mods and admins here. If that is what they say happened, then I have no reason to believe differently.

#2. No matter what the Mods or Admins find out, there will always be people who will see "demons" (a term someone wisely used once) in everything that is done. There are some people who, for whatever reason, are on a mission to crucify certian others. For these people, no matter what happends, it will be twisted around in an attempt to attack their victim(s).

There is nothing I can do for you who do this, because anything I say will be seen as having ill intentions to you. All I can hope for is that onlookers will see the truth for what it is.  

#3. I know that many people see me as a bulldog for the WMAA, and for Tim H because I have come to the defense of both when "under attack." I don't apoligize for any of it, as the times I "defended" I felt where justified. However, something concerned me greatly here. When "Joe E." thought myself and Tim H. "were of the same mind," I knew something was wrong. Another tip off was when I was blamed by more then one person for "defending Tim before the evidence came out" when all I really said here was don't attack someone until you know for sure if they are guilty. I'm seeing a problem that needs to be addressed; and that problem is that many of you don't see that I am my own man.

I don't know a more creative way to say it, but, I am my own man! Next year will be my 20th aniversary in the martial arts; 15th in Modern Arnis. And, although Tim has been a friend and mentor to me, and although I play a role in Tim's organization, MY instructor for Modern Arnis was Remy A. Presas (and NOT just for one seminar a year, like many others who claim the same). I have the right to my own opinons and views regarding the art (both "political" and "technical" aspects), and I certianly have them. I think that I need to help people to realize these facts, and I hope that my future actions will reflect what I am saying here to you. I can't do anything to change the past, or how you percieve me; all I can do is control my own behavior. I just ask that you keep an open mind. 

#4 I also thought I'd let you know that I'll be focusing on doing MY own work to help further my art (Yea, that's right...MY WORK and no one elses) rather then Internet, "fantasy" crap. So, I'll be weaning off this thread and hopefully participating in B.S. threads like this one a lot less. Hell, participating in this one as much as I have has already made me feel "dirty."

Thanks for listening, 

Paul Janulis


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 3, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Yes, Jerome stepped up and said who was posting on Martial Talk under the Norshadow account. They were not suspended for sharing account info, Jerome was suspended for three months for account sharing. Paul Janulis made a direct and blatant threat and was suspended for how long? Before this turns into "Paul is bashing Janulis again" read this carefully, I am taking YOU to task for your claims and accountability here.... just exposing the darkness Bob.
> 
> I really didn't want to bring this up and was hoping that some reasonable, responsible behavior would show up. Unfortunately, Bob, that idealstic hope that martial arts training would instill something more than just learning a better way to kick and punch isn't holding true here because I don't see much democracy, fair and equal, or integrity going on here.


This is not a democracy. We try to be as fair as humanly possible, and learn as we go.



> I wrote the below letter after a phone conversation over this. In that phonecon, I was informed that Red Blade was one of Tim Hartman's students who had, unknown to Tim H, been posting as Red Blade and had used Tim's computer from the school location. This time, Red Blade had failed to log out of Tim H's RENEGADE account and the intended post appeared.
> 
> *"I hesitate to write this with the positive tone of our recent exchanges, but I feel that I have to be honest here.
> 
> ...


If such events occured, I was not there for them. The other staff here are not students at Tims school, so would also not usually be there to overhear or be part of such things.



> Secondly, Tim is an advisor and former administrator, if the account screening were happening as Bob has claimed, then the ID, or at least posting ID source as a Buffalo computer, Tim's Own computer specifically, would have shown up earlier than this and Tim would have been one of those from the board who verified new member accounts for those claiming FMA background.


Tim is an advisor.  He has always functioned in that role, regardless of title.  He did no moderation other than watching.  He was never an administrator.  
One of the IPs does coincide with a WNY member, however we don't believe he is RedBlade.  We do not investigate members backgrounds.  Simply put, too much work for too little ROI. We verify email addresses.



> Thirdly, the time hits for Red Blade don't jive with class times or regular business hours for a student/associate to be hanging around and asking for access to Tim's computer.


Time stamps weren't looked at heavily due to the IP addresses not matching. If we were a city like Toronto, with a gazillion internet cafes it might be different.



> All that said, posting between Red Blade and Tim are very similar in style and length and even the errors that either come from typos or speed. Someone can copy style, but mistakes are habitual and hard to mimic so closely.


That may be true, but Tim is bar far not the only 'fat-finger' typoist here.



> Also, as you mentioned [edited/omitted by Paul Martin], Tim/Renegade either working with Red Blade or posting as Red Blade could be considered motive on Tims part to undermine Atillos credibility and reassert Teds Balintawak position. [edited/omitted by Paul Martin], the general Red Blade tone is to assert Ted Buot as the most credible and identifiable Balitawak successor. That doesnt seem consistent with Red Blades comment about reading an article and wanting to just verify info.


The evidence does seem to suggest that.  A counter argument would be that someone is playing with Tim.  Or that someone with long standing 'issues' with Tim could be out to discredit him.  (And before anyone brings up Dr. B., I will remind them that there are many other FMA folks also with axes to grind here.)

In the absence of a positive ID, a smoking gun, or some mysterious tapes, all we have is speculation.



> There may be some specific issues that can be disputed but the general observations cant be thrown out.
> 
> Am I judging Tim? No. I have my own skeletons, issues from my past. I will make mistakes in the future as well. I am writing this to let you know that this claim sounds thin, dishonest and  with the amount of bashing that Jerome took for basically sharing account info  this is hypocritical. Tim, as some have said about Bush as President, should stand up and take responsibility. I am sad that this kind of embarrassment occurs at all. Maybe the gamesmanship really needs to stop in general.


IF! Tim is involved, then yes, he should have stood up and taken responsibility, even if only to say "My system was misused, I am taking care of the problem and it won't happen again".  But should he stand up and take the fall for someone else when he isn't involved?

The agrument is that Tim needs to take responsibility.  He should admit he is guilty...-even if he isn't-.  

I will agree with 1 point.
"*the gamesmanship really needs to stop*"



> I hope that our bridging, decent communications and common respect  [edited/omitted by Paul Martin]  will keep your mind open to my reasoning on this issue."*
> 
> Now, either this stuff was true making the quote above by Bob a lie, or the stuff was a lie and was used to feed misinformation - in which case someone's own loyalties were abused. Either way, it ain't good.
> 
> Waiting to see where my dissent will be quarrenteened to....


Paul, stick to this issue if you must debate it, and save the political stuff for the apropiate venues.  There is your 'quarrenteene'.


----------



## Tgace (May 3, 2004)

> The evidence does seem to suggest that. A counter argument would be that someone is playing with Tim. Or that someone with long standing 'issues' with Tim could be out to discredit him. (And before anyone brings up Dr. B., I will remind them that there are many other FMA folks also with axes to grind here.)



I cant argue any of your other points, but on this one all you have to do is look at Red Blades posting history to see that this dosent seem likely. He/She was one of the most vocal critics of Norshadow/ et.al. and a recurring "successorship" supporter (brought it up fairly often) of Tim.


----------



## loki09789 (May 3, 2004)

Paul J,

Honestly, not seeing demons here as much as the inequity of work ethic in the investigation and the weakness of explanations.  The point of the post was that there was one version of the story that you were told by those involved in searching and now the the official statement is about 'dynamic' sources (which haven't been listed as they were in the norshadow incident).  

There are technically versed people here who are saying that the technical difficulty excuse is weak.  

There are literate readers here reading the RB posts and the direction and intent of them pretty clearly.

There are changes in statements/explanations and investigation status that don't jive with each other.

There is the equivalent of mistrial by lack of evidence making this a 'cold case' when the key information (which, interestingly, was a public hit of Red Blade posting from Renegade account) was oops deleted by the very investigators.

There is a serious lack of details in the public statements abot where Red Blade did post from.

AND Red Blade is quoted as being a student of Tim/Renegades acting as witness to GM Presas making a successorship statement in Toronto - among other agendized posts.

Demons, no.  Back pedalling and a lack of details, weak explanations and generalized comments without clear answers to specific questions, yes.

I am glad that you are interested in making yourself distinct and individual even though you are part of a group.  That is the same message that I and others made in relation to some of the "Barber Camp" comments before - but were discounted.  THe change in your tone from then to now shows some positive change, and a deeper sympathetic understanding of the points being made back then.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 3, 2004)

*Point*: There are technically versed people here who are saying that the technical difficulty excuse is weak. 

I agree.

*Point*: There are changes in statements/explanations and investigation status that don't jive with each other.

I agree. But I believe the LEOs watching would agree you don't put everything you have out for public review while investigating, and might also release some misinformation as well.

*Point*: There is a serious lack of details in the public statements abot where Red Blade did post from.

AOL, Adelphia and Level 3 are the locations. Physical locations include WNY, Washington, Penn, Ohio, Virginia and parts of Canada. (I'm basing this on the listed locations of the accounts it matched.)

*Point*: There is the equivalent of mistrial by lack of evidence making this a 'cold case' when the key information (which, interestingly, was a public hit of Red Blade posting from Renegade account) was oops deleted by the very investigators.

Post was recovered and is visible now. 

*Point*: AND Red Blade is quoted as being a student of Tim/Renegades acting as witness to GM Presas making a successorship statement in Toronto - among other agendized posts.

RB may be a students of Hartmans. May not be. It wouldn't be the first act of subtifudge used in a fictitious account case. (NorShadow also posted many misdirections as well. So have many others here.)


What more information would you like to see?
The IP's themselves?
The list of users?

It was suggested in an email I received that action should be taken "_*if the final data collection and information points to even a single instance of "renegade is red blade"*_

*It did not.*

Not once, not twice, not -any- number greater than zero.

I will ask again publically.
Do you want that list posted publically Paul?


----------



## Cruentus (May 3, 2004)

> Honestly, not seeing demons here as much as the inequity of work ethic in the investigation and the weakness of explanations.



"Yes, Paul Martin, but can you PROVE that you don't beat your wife?" (kidding of course)

You see, the problem here is you can't prove a negative. We don't know who this Red Blade guy really is. He may be Tim Hartman, Tim Hartman's students, or nobody affiliated with Tim at all. I think the IP's not matching Tim's prove that it wasn't him. I can't be sure that he isn't somehow affiliated with Tim, yet, when I look at the Black Belt and affiliated schools list for the WMAA, I am not seeing anyone who would/could be posting from all the different locations listed. If it was someone affiliated with Tim, it would be....odd.

But the logic that I am seeing is, "Prove that Tim DIDN'T do anything wrong! If you can't, then he must have been behind all this!" Well, sometimes it is hard to prove a negative. And in this case, you can't, unless "Red Blade" comes forward.

So, what do we know w/o a doubt? Nothing, other then that Tim's computer wasn't used, which works in his favor. That's why I think it is a matter of "seeing demons" or not, in this case. And...since I can't prove a negative here either, I just have to move on with my life, I guess.

Sorry....reality break. 

Back to work for me!


----------



## Tgace (May 3, 2004)

IP Spoofing???? I doubt Red Blade was actually posting from all those states..theres ways around IP tracking.


----------



## loki09789 (May 3, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> What more information would you like to see?
> The IP's themselves?
> The list of users?
> 
> ...




Bob,
You are obviously going to do what ever you want to, but if you wanted to post the IP's/use list, then you would have done so by now.  What ever info you put up you do so of your own free will.

I would love to see the IPs/User lists publicly laid out.  IF you choose to do so though could you break down the percentage/number from each of these 'dynamic' locations?  If there is a pattern of Red BLade posts linked to certain events that corresponded, or a concentration of posts from a certain area that might be helpful as well.

As far as not one single instance of Red Blade/Renegade link:  What about the hit that Bart posted as a quote that got this whole thing rolling?

Here is my suggestion for a reform to reduce this type of gaming in general:

Make it a policy to post using a handle that is based on your name, PaulM or PMartin or something like that.  Also, make it a requirement that the profile info be filled out at least with the basic name, rank and serial number type of info with the option to let it be public or private, but at least it will be there for the admins to back track for just such anb emergency.

You aren't kidding this isn't a democracy.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 3, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Bob,
> You are obviously going to do what ever you want to, but if you wanted to post the IP's/use list, then you would have done so by now. What ever info you put up you do so of your own free will.


I try to respect those individuals who have nothing to do with this witch hunts right to privacy.



> I would love to see the IPs/User lists publicly laid out. IF you choose to do so though could you break down the percentage/number from each of these 'dynamic' locations? If there is a pattern of Red BLade posts linked to certain events that corresponded, or a concentration of posts from a certain area that might be helpful as well.


Here are the IPs. I've tried to ID the ISPs in question. I do like the percentage idea, however thats not something I know how to pull out of the logs. 

Full list below. Here is where each IP traces back.
198.81.26.104 AOL
64.12.102.161 AOL
64.12.102.162 AOL
64.12.102.163 AOL
64.12.102.168 AOL
64.12.96.107 AOL
67.23.119.46 Adelphia
67.75.61.74 Level3
68.71.197.153 Adelphia
68.71.197.167 Adelphia
68.71.197.169 Adelphia

*IP Address Search for User: "*red blade*"* 

198.81.26.104
*Dun Ringill* 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
*Icepick* 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
*joeyp* 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
*Magua* 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
*Matt Stone* 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
*The 14th Style* 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]

64.12.102.161

*bloodwood* 64.12.102.161 [Find Posts by User]
*ECYili* 64.12.102.161 [Find Posts by User]

64.12.102.162

*bscastro* 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User]
*The Psycho Guy* 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User]
*WhoopAss* 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User] 

64.12.102.163
*Bill Smith* 64.12.102.163 [Find Posts by User]



64.12.102.168

*bloodwood* 64.12.102.168 [Find Posts by User]

64.12.96.107

*ace* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*believer* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*bloodwood* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*BRAM* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*Cebu West* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*Disco* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*Dojo420* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*don bohrer* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*Eddie Miller* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*Grasshoppah* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*Guro_Jeff* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*IMAA* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*Jas* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*JDenz* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*Kenpo Yahoo* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*KenpoDragon* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
*KenpoIsIt* 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
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67.23.119.46
67.75.61.74
68.71.197.153
68.71.197.167
68.71.197.169

*loki09789* 68.71.197.169 [Find Posts by User]




> As far as not one single instance of Red Blade/Renegade link: What about the hit that Bart posted as a quote that got this whole thing rolling?


That is an Adelphia address.



> Here is my suggestion for a reform to reduce this type of gaming in general:
> 
> Make it a policy to post using a handle that is based on your name, PaulM or PMartin or something like that. Also, make it a requirement that the profile info be filled out at least with the basic name, rank and serial number type of info with the option to let it be public or private, but at least it will be there for the admins to back track for just such anb emergency.
> 
> You aren't kidding this isn't a democracy.


New accounts are required to provide us with a name and location. Incompletes are deleted. Old accounts are excempt unless there is a problem. There is still the question of proof of ID, something that is only possible if we require a credit card number and copy of photo ID. To do that would require we go pay only as its a bit more labor to do the proving.


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## loki09789 (May 3, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I try to respect those individuals who have nothing to do with this witch hunts right to privacy.
> 
> Here are the IPs. I've tried to ID the ISPs in question. I do like the percentage idea, however thats not something I know how to pull out of the logs.
> 
> ...



I don't see where the IP trace backs are explained geographically.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 3, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I don't see where the IP trace backs are explained geographically.


Take an IP and do a traceroute on each one.
http://visualroute.com (I think) will show you the current location of an IP.

As Tom indicated, IPs can and have been spoofed.

You will also see several individuals under each one.
Using a few 'known, locations verifieds' as examples here (not suggesting any involvement or wrongdoing).
Ace is in NY
Cebu West is in PA
Whoopass is in Ohio
You are in NY.
Matt Stone is in Washington State.
etc.

Each IP is traced visually back to its location.
Each 'possible' (not suspect) account is then checked to see where it indicates origin.  Some didn't match up, some have some regional drift, and others are flat out off.  In the later case, an 'average' is taken amongst all of that accounts associated IPs to determine aproximate location.

This is different from where an account is the only one hitting a particular address, with minimal overlap with another. (IE users behind a single firewall)

There may be a better way, or better tools that I am not aware of. 

Another sidebar, "Dun Ringill" is a banned troll that spent some time being a jerk in the Kenpo forums here and elsewhere.  I believe at least 1 other name on there is also banned.  Why wasn't the IP blacked?  Because others on that same # are ok members.


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## loki09789 (May 3, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Take an IP and do a traceroute on each one.
> http://visualroute.com (I think) will show you the current location of an IP.
> 
> As Tom indicated, IPs can and have been spoofed.
> ...



It is a shame that this spoofing, combined with the original post being deleted leads to inconclusivene mechanical evidence.   As I wrote in the letter to Paul though, disputing one of the points (ie technical difficulty) doesn't discount the whole thing.

Considering that Red Blade has been on for a long time, this list seems a little short if each search hit is a spoof from Red Blade.

It is convenient though.


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## Cebu West (May 3, 2004)

What did Red Blade do wrong?

NOTHING!!

The fact that Red Blade has not been identified is not a violation of Martial Talk rules. He has an old account and identification was not mandatory when the account was set up. Now that a software problem has come up it is necessary for Red Blade to be identified to the Martial Talk moderators. If Red blade decides to remain anonymous that is his or her privilege. If the account is closed because of this, that is also Red Blades right to decide.

The moderators have looked into this situation and have given an explanation. They run and oversee this forum and we should be glad they have identified this problem and corrected it. They also have cleared Red Blade and Renegade from any infractions of the Martial Talk rules.
So to the witch hunters who have been driving this thread with yet another attempt to discredit Tim Hartman, it's time to put this one to rest.

Continuing this will only reinforce the fact that the resentment over the failed Norshadow incident is at the root of your not being satisfied with the results from the moderators. You all thought you smelled blood and dove in head first. 

The moderators have posted more than enough info on how they came to their conclusions and to continue this nonsense by feeding info for the whims of a few disgruntled people is nonsense. It's plain to see they will never be satisfied.  Literary analyst, card readers, mystics, what's next? Maybe Sherlock Holmes.
 It's time to move on. If you don't like the way things are done here maybe it's time for those who feel that way to go elswhere.

SAL


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## Bob Hubbard (May 3, 2004)

I tend to agree.  I've got nothing more to add, so at this point, I'm done.

:asian:


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## arnisador (May 3, 2004)

That was me posting from Mr. Hartman's account. I've been playing catch-up on MartialTalk for 4 hours now and haven't even hit the General area. It's all I'll accomplish tonight and I still won't get to the camp review. The new post markers help though. I am satisfied that I did nothing inapproriate in using his account with his permission while the site's owner stood behind me watching.


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## loki09789 (May 4, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> What Bart posted, was not what I saw when I deleted the post. As was indicated, when (I think it was Bart) said, when they went to the post it had been edited.
> 
> I didn't get the notice that bart did, as I do not have this thread subscribed to, so I didn't see the original unedited post.  Just what I stated.



I agree that the techie stuff would indicate a lack of evidence of who Red Blade clearly is.

This quote is what I come back to now that you have listed the IP's and such.

Logically, if the post you saw wasn't what bart recieved AND that when bart said he went to the post -which could have been construed as Renegade answering a question posed for Red Blade - that the account ID (regardless of the IP's/ISP's) had changed from Renegade to Red Blade.  How did the "wrong quote" warning come your way, personal reporting or system notification?  If it was personal reporting, from who?  If it was a 'wrong quote' problem, I don't see an original post with that text prior to the post that hit bart's notification as Renegade, but was up on MT as Red Blade.

If it were a computer glitch where the system had mistakenly posted Red Blades response under Renegades account - how did it 'correct' without some human interaction?  That would require access to account info like passwords in order for an edit to occur.... and it wasn't you according to the statement that you only deleted what you considered an oops.

The IP/ISP info only shows that the traces point back to Red Blade spoofing account sourcing, the evidence doesn't show that Renegade was one of them - that is clear.  But we saw evidence that demonstrated access, not only to the IP/ISP stuff of Renegade but directly into Renegades account info as well, which didn't show up on the ISP/IP info listed.  Even if you can say the Red Blade/Renegade overlap was a system glitch, the pre-delete edit speaks to human involvement - which really puts the computer glitch explanation in doubt for me.

I noticed my account was accessed.  But, without the password - or the ability to change the password - the IP/ISP access only means that Red Blade logged in as Red Blade from my stuff. - which I find interesting because I use BlueFrog for internet access, but it wasn't listed as an ISP.  If Red Blade had been accessing my account and posting as me, firstly, I would have noticed because of the password issue OR I would have noticed posts under my name that weren't authored by me - along with everyone else on your list.

Call it a witch hunt because of who it might point to, but the explanations/investigation results are inconclusive AT BEST.  This is not the same as conclusively proving anyone 'innocent'.  The other evidence of some misconduct is clear by looking at all the information, including reading the posts themselves.

This is the last I will say about this.  Like I said, you are going to do what ever you want to do.


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## Joe Eccleston (May 4, 2004)

It has become obvious now that we'll never really get to the bottom of this.  This has now become a great waste of time.  As for me, I feel a little suspicious now about sharing what information I have about Balintawak, knowing now that the reality of this word in Michigan and New York has become very politicized.  When I first began on this forum, I was under the impression that Balintawak was this one entity, and those using this name understood themselves to be brothers in this Art.  My only solace is that this Brotherhood is still very much alive in Cebu.  Maybe people have reduced this art into "My Master is the Sole Successor" BS, I still hope that only DATU Tim Hartman and his followers are the minority here.  This had always been about Skill, not Politics.

So, lesson learned...  In the future, when we see the thread follow the same line as below:




			
				Red Blade said:
			
		

> Question 3
> *Did GM Bacon name a successor?*






			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the *ONLY* person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.








			
				Red Blade said:
			
		

> For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.






			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school. Last night we talked about the details. Sometime between August 04 - April 05 I will have him at my school.
> 
> This seminar will be open to the public and will be 10am - 5pm on the Saturday and 9:30am - 3:30pm on the Sunday.
> 
> ...


 
In the future, we'll just agree to ignore it.  Lesson learned, Problem solved (atleast for me). :asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 4, 2004)

Greetings-

Ive been busy the last week with my camp and Im in the middle of the recovery process of hosting an event. I would like to make a statement about this situation:

Ive been a member of MT since the beginning. I have followed its rules and when I did cross the line during the Moro-Moro era I was rightfully warned. Ive played by its rules and will continue to due so while Im a member of this forum. 

I will answer a couple things that Ive seen while I was running the camp.

1.


			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> AND Red Blade is quoted as being a student of Tim/Renegades acting as witness to GM Presas making a successorship statement in Toronto - among other agendized posts.



Paul, here is the post. Where does he/she claim to be my student?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52596#post52596

2.


			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> Perhaps Mr. Hartman remembers which of his students went to this seminar with him and he could narrow down the field from that.



Why? So your group can go after this person like a pack of wolves. If Red Blade didnt break any rules with his/her posting is there a need for the identity? For the record I didnt bring any of my students to this event. 

For those who question whether Im Red Blade or not let me ask you this. After last summers Lamont Norshadow scam, do you think that I stupid enough to do the same? The funny thing is that most of the people who are accusing me of this are the ones who are part of that scam. They can also be traced to other mythical accounts on various sites including Joe Battler and probably Ernest Westbrook.

For those who have been defending me, its time to move on. Every time an answer has been offered the same people choose not to listen.

Here it is in a nutshell. You can look at my history and decide for yourself. I would rather be judged by my actions and not my words. My accusers seem to have nothing better in their lives then focus on me. Im flattered to know that I can help them find purpose in their lives. 

As always if you want to contact me Im easy to get a hold of:
School: 716-675-0899
Cell: 716-432-0600
E-mail: wmarnis@wmarnis.com

*I am now done with this part of the thread.*

Respectfully yours,
Datu Tim Hartman
Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis
WMAA President


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 4, 2004)

This is to Joe.



			
				Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> I was simply making my opinion heard about the commercialization, and surreptious advertising ploys, on this thread.


Lets talk about this; Im being accused in participating in some form of commercial scam. How dare I charge money for a seminar! Well the fact of the manner is that Im not, GM Atillo is charging. This seminar is a quest for knowledge. 

I saw that the Canadian Rep for Atillo is a member of MT. I had sent him a PM wondering if would either be hosting Atillo or know of any seminars here on the East coast. He had replied to me that Atillo wasnt going to be out this way and that he didnt have the appropriate location to host such an event. I intern offered the use of my school at no cost. I have done this on more than one occasion. Ive let Dr Barber, Bram Frank, and others use my school at NO COST to host seminars and camps. That was when Atillo started calling me. Atillo called me on several occasions to get me to host this event. He has told me what to charge. *Maybe he should pay all of his own expenses for this event so everyone can go free?*

_*I'm willing to discuss what this thread is about, Balintawak.*_


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## loki09789 (May 4, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Paul, here is the post. Where does he/she claim to be my student?
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52596#post52596



Your right Tim, Red Blade doesn't make the statement that he/she is your student.  And since none of your students were in attendance, maybe the way to go would be to go back over the list of those who paid/filled out release forms/recieved attendance certificates to narrow the list some if RB is claiming to be at said event.  You have always been such a big admin helper at RP events, you must have or know who has these records.  Cross reference that with who ever JayBacca was/and might know because Red Blade makes a statement trying to get confirmation from that handle name.  

They can't both be blank profiles can they?  JayBacca must be easier to trace back to at least ask a few questions of...

I knew that public access to this info would contribute to the investigation 

Well, on to Balitawak:

In the PI schools, if the idea of 'successorship' isn't inherently PI culture but a relatively modern adaptation:  what is the deal with GM terminology.  Prior to this type of titling, what did BK instructors call each other, higher/lower ranked instructors...?


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 4, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Your right Tim, Red Blade doesn't make the statement that he/she is your student.  And since none of your students were in attendance, maybe the way to go would be to go back over the list of those who paid/filled out release forms/recieved attendance certificates to narrow the list some if RB is claiming to be at said event.  You have always been such a big admin helper at RP events, you must have or know who has these records.  Cross reference that with who ever JayBacca was/and might know because Red Blade makes a statement trying to get confirmation from that handle name.
> 
> They can't both be blank profiles can they?  JayBacca must be easier to trace back to at least ask a few questions of...
> 
> I knew that public access to this info would contribute to the investigation



Paul

You must have missed this: *I am now done with this part of the thread.* But if you would like to visit me at my school like you did during the Norshadow scam, feel free to call for and appointment. I think it's time to rely less on the net and invest a little in some *"Face to Face"* time. I'm in and out of the school during most of the day. Remeber* not * to show up if you don't call in avdance.

Scholl 675-0899
Cell 432-0600


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## loki09789 (May 4, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Paul
> 
> You must have missed this: *I am now done with this part of the thread.* But if you would like to visit me at my school like you did during the Norshadow scam, feel free to call for and appointment. I think it's time to rely less on the net and invest a little in some *"Face to Face"* time. I'm in and out of the school during most of the day. Remeber* not * to show up if you don't call in avdance.
> 
> ...



My email is listed in the profile and you have called me in the past, you can do so this time as well if it is something that you feel strongly about.  

Evenings are impossible because of family time and such, so don't bother then.   If you notice, my posting times are during the dead spaces during the day and late at night on the average.  Family time is family time though don't want to mess with that.


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## Cruentus (May 4, 2004)

Hi everyone...

My feelings are that really nothing can be resolved on this thread anymore then it has, and given the "flames," I think it is safe to say that it's pretty much impossible to have this turn into a normal conversation about Balintawak, or "successorship" in FMA, or anything else more productive.

So, I started a thread about Successorship, rank, and titles in FMA here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14278

I think it has potential to be a good discussion.

As far is this thread is concerned, I think we should let it die. Heck...I wouldn't cry foul if it was locked myself.

Paul Janulis


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## Bob Hubbard (May 4, 2004)

Paul (Martin)

Here is another list of IPs....yours.  The resolution by block is listed, if you wish to more accurately verify things, feel free to start the hunt for Red Blade here.

Again, I am through with this.  

Software Glitch?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I honestly don't know exactly.  All I can say is what we found.  

I can spend weeks going round and round, and get nowhere.
The one simple fact is that those screaming the loudest are the same folks who were caught in last years scandel.  I myself have to wonder if they doth protest too much.

In any event....Paul, heres your IPs.

Enjoy.



=======
IP Address Search for User: "loki09789" 

165.247.38.35   mindspring.com

168.169.120.102   Erie 1 BOCES  
168.169.199.61    
168.169.28.136    
168.169.28.40    
168.169.29.74    
168.169.29.99    
168.169.30.115    
168.169.31.144    
168.169.38.60    
168.169.60.130    
168.169.60.229    
168.169.63.17    
168.169.63.174     
168.169.63.69    
168.169.88.180    
168.169.89.70    
168.169.90.119    
168.169.90.58    

199.0.180.118    Sprint
199.0.180.222    
199.0.180.239    
199.0.180.247    
199.0.180.250    
199.0.180.54    
199.0.181.15    
199.0.181.161    
199.0.181.6    
199.0.183.89    

205.232.76.101   Sprint  
205.232.76.111    
205.232.76.125    
205.232.76.134    
205.232.76.143    
205.232.76.144    
205.232.76.149    
205.232.76.152    
205.232.76.165    
205.232.76.168    
205.232.76.171    
205.232.76.180    
205.232.76.182    
205.232.76.201    
205.232.76.210    
205.232.76.223    
205.232.76.23    
205.232.76.230    
205.232.76.238    
205.232.76.248    
205.232.76.35    
205.232.76.38    
205.232.76.50    
205.232.76.88    
205.232.78.100    
205.232.78.109    
205.232.78.117    
205.232.78.143    
205.232.78.180    
205.232.78.185    
205.232.78.83    
205.232.79.1    
205.232.79.102    
205.232.79.106    
205.232.79.111    
205.232.79.112    
205.232.79.127    
205.232.79.13    
205.232.79.131    
205.232.79.150    
205.232.79.151    
205.232.79.157    
205.232.79.16    
205.232.79.181    
205.232.79.186    
205.232.79.188    
205.232.79.189    
205.232.79.21    
205.232.79.28    
205.232.79.30    
205.232.79.34    
205.232.79.45    
205.232.79.7    
205.232.79.75    
205.232.79.82    
205.232.81.102    
205.232.81.116    
205.232.81.126    
205.232.81.130    
205.232.81.134    
205.232.81.140    
205.232.81.144    
205.232.81.155    
205.232.81.156    
205.232.81.163    
205.232.81.169    
205.232.81.17    
205.232.81.172    
205.232.81.177    
205.232.81.184    
205.232.81.188    
205.232.81.194    
205.232.81.196    
205.232.81.210    
205.232.81.213    
205.232.81.215    
205.232.81.221    
205.232.81.227    
205.232.81.228    
205.232.81.233    
205.232.81.30    
205.232.81.56    
205.232.81.60    
205.232.81.65    
205.232.81.66    
205.232.81.73    
205.232.82.77    
205.232.82.90    
205.232.83.137    
205.232.83.191  

209.222.240.140    RPA Internet 
209.222.242.149    
209.222.242.156    
209.222.242.186    
209.222.242.212    
209.222.242.215    
209.222.242.37    
209.222.242.51    
209.222.242.67    
209.222.242.82    
209.222.243.112    
209.222.243.12    
209.222.243.121    
209.222.243.123    
209.222.243.163    
209.222.243.211    
209.222.243.225    
209.222.243.23    
209.222.243.235    
209.222.243.55    
209.222.243.71    
209.222.244.119    
209.222.244.134    
209.222.244.136    
209.222.244.221    
209.222.244.238    
209.222.244.240    
209.222.244.251    
209.222.244.31    
209.222.244.46    
209.222.244.77    
209.222.244.83    
209.222.244.89    
209.222.245.1    
209.222.245.101    
209.222.245.160    
209.222.245.173    
209.222.246.159    
209.222.246.42    
209.222.246.88    
209.222.250.157 

64.179.77.35    Choice One Communications Inc 
64.179.77.43   

67.75.52.229    Level 3 Communications, Inc. 
67.75.58.195    
67.75.58.233    
67.75.58.237    
   >>>>>> Tgace   67.75.58.237     
67.75.59.122    
67.75.59.131    
67.75.59.69    
67.75.60.3    
67.75.61.72    

68.71.197.169    Adelphia Cable Communications
   >>>>>> Red Blade   68.71.197.169


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## Mathusula2 (May 6, 2004)

Camp Barber, et al:

I must say, it never ceases to amaze me what time and effort you put into Tim bashing.  In fact, after reading the 14 pages of this thread (particularly the last half or so) I've come to the conclusion that you should be thanking Tim whole-heartedly!!  Why, you ask?  It appears that Tim gives your lives meaning... He gives you purpose.  I don't know what you would do without Tim Hartman and this forum... maybe _*train*_?


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## Rich Parsons (May 7, 2004)

I have locked this thread at the request of a user, and with my agreement, that a new thread to discuss Balintawak if desired is in order.
 :asian: 

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Assistant Administrator


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