# Pressure Points in MMA



## FearlessFreep

Anybody intentionally use pressure points in MMA?  I have some vague thoughts in my head and am curious if anyone has applied pressure point knowledge to MMA fighting


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## Andrew Green

Nobody, and I'd bet it will stay that way 

I do remember a video a while back that a news crew did where they took a PP master to a MMA club though, the MMA guys (including Stephan Bonnar) just looked at him funny as he tried his stuff


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

I personally think that Pressure Point fighting and MMA fighting will never coexist.  I mean if you're going to introduce pressure points next you'll have to include joint locks, then they'll want to start using Kali sticks, who knows where it will end?  Ok so I'm over exagerating a little.

Pressure points are very exact and don't work on everyone or all the time.  There's already enough to work on in MMA between conditioning, striking, grappling, adding pressure points, would just be too much.​


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## brianlkennedy

My MMA teacher taught us the only pressure point that matters----the tip of the jaw. Hit the button (generally) lights out. So to protect that pressure point, hands up, chin down, bite your mouth piece when going in, cup your ears with your hands to protect your jaw hinge.

Does that count?

take care,
Brian


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## thetruth

I have spoken to a high ranking pp guy regards to this.  He claimed he taught pressure points to a well known mma group.  I asked why they didn't use them, he said they weren't ready for them, I said some stuff and promptly got kicked out of his forum.   Now I have no drama's with people saying hit this point or that and they will fall down as long as they are hit with full intent and power.  When they are hit this way though it is impossible to say if it was the point that made it work or the force of the blow.  PP guys will say it was all pressure points but I am not so sure.   As for the tippy tap crap, that will never exist in mma.

Just some thoughts

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Tez3

Well you know what I'm going to say don't you? Yes we do use some. it's like anything else in MMA if you know a technique you use it but finding the right time to use a particular move is the key to MMA. You don't try a jumping roundhouse kick when you're lying on your back and you don't try using pressure points when you're going toe to toe. 
Brian, of course that counts! You probably use them more than the guys who say they fight using only pressure points! As for being 'not ready' for them, that's cowdung. People like putting MMA down and they like making a mystique out of pressure points.
If you only watch the UFC and judge all MMA by it you will see only a few MA techniques being used.


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## FearlessFreep

I should probably clarify what I was thinking 

I'm not thinking pressure point techniques as in hit some in 47 people in 5 seconds and they fall down.

A few times in ad-hoc class situations I've had opportunity to apply pressure to some known pressure points (mostly armpit and trap muscles, plus strikes to spots in the thigh) and it's been rather effective.  caveat that it's been to lighter opponents without as much muscle thickness as others.  It's been in situations on the ground mostly where in the position I've been in it's presented a chance to use that sort of technique, so I have.

So I was just curious if others had used any sort of pressure point attackes in the context of a wider fighting/sparring situation and if so what had worked or had not worked


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## Catalyst

I've never fought MMA and just recently began watching within the last 2 years (so I don't know very much), but would a submission like a rear-naked-choke be considered a pressure point attack?

If you're applying pressure to a specific point(s), like the carotid arteries, would this qualify as a pressure point attack, depending on the definition?


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## Tez3

FearlessFreep said:


> I should probably clarify what I was thinking
> 
> I'm not thinking pressure point techniques as in hit some in 47 people in 5 seconds and they fall down.
> 
> A few times in ad-hoc class situations I've had opportunity to apply pressure to some known pressure points *(mostly armpit and trap muscles*, *plus strikes to spots in the thigh*) and it's been rather effective. caveat that it's been to lighter opponents without as much muscle thickness as others. It's been in situations on the ground mostly where in the position I've been in it's presented a chance to use that sort of technique, so I have.
> 
> So I was just curious if others had used any sort of pressure point attackes in the context of a wider fighting/sparring situation and if so what had worked or had not worked


 
Yep that's the ones! Try them on the bigger guys too they can work, or just hit the muscle, I've done that too and seems to work sometimes.It actually seems to depend on the person rather than the size I've found. there's a nice one just by the inside of the elbow thats quite sweet, you can also find the lower leg ones and the feet.Don't forget and many do, that you can stamp on feet in MMA, vey good when in clinch or stuck on ropes/cage. I suppose to be correct you can call it a heel strike to the foot lol!


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## FieldDiscipline

Ali used them in boxing, so why not in MMA?


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## Tez3

There's also an interesting move as patented by Paul "Hands of Stone" Jenkins, when on the ground he slides his opponents groin guard with his arm/elbow/knee/hand whatever, 'downwards' as it were till the elastic stretches then lets go.........


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## DavidCC

When Chuck Liddell came to town 2 years ago or so, we asked him specifically if he hunts for specific points, like the side of the jaw.  He knew exaclty what we were talking about.  He said, basically, that he will hit someone there (side of jaw) if it is available but he doesn't try to force it.  He knows a number of "sweet spots" but doesn't call them pressure points.

The outsdie of the thigh, the inside of the leg above the knee, the solar plexus, side of the jaw, tip of the jaw, floating ribs... these are all very common targets in MMA or boxing (except for the leg points) and are also the locations of some of the most effective pressure points.  

Are they known and used : yes.  Are they taught to the fighters as "pressure points", probably not.


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## Tez3

brianlkennedy said:


> My MMA teacher taught us the only pressure point that matters----the tip of the jaw. Hit the button (generally) lights out. So to protect that pressure point, hands up, chin down, bite your mouth piece when going in, cup your ears with your hands to protect your jaw hinge.
> 
> Does that count?
> 
> take care,
> Brian


 
You are going to be taken out with a liver shot if you keep your hands that high, far worse than being KO'd. You are also inviting take downs. If you are fighting amateur rules ie no head strikes then it would be useless defending your head while you are taking body shots.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

Yes and upon reading posts and second thoughts, my Sensei has a somewhat unorthodox technique, he hits people in the forearms.  Sounds silly to some I'm sure, but there are quite a few pressure points in the forearm, and if you keep striking away at them it makes it very difficult to A) Keep those hands up and B) block with the forearms, so in a way that is pressure point fighting while practicing MMA.

Plus inside leg kicks, I mean how many pressure points are there in the thigh?


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## Tez3

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> Yes and upon reading posts and second thoughts, my Sensei has a somewhat unorthodox technique, he hits people in the forearms. Sounds silly to some I'm sure, but there are quite a few pressure points in the forearm, and if you keep striking away at them it makes it very difficult to A) Keep those hands up and B) block with the forearms, so in a way that is pressure point fighting while practicing MMA.
> 
> Plus inside leg kicks, I mean how many pressure points are there in the thigh?


 
With respect, hitting the arms repeatedly is not going to help in MMA, when judging I would be looking for quicker effective moves than bangin away at someones arms. As a ref I think I would be thinking about warning for pacivity as it's not an overtly aggressive move expecially it's just being repeated. As a fighter I'd think thank you and good night! No one is going to stand there letting you bang away at their arms. If you are going to use a pressure point it has to be in a way that brings instant results.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

Tez3:
Totally see where you're coming from, didn't mean that he just stands there and just aims for the forearms, but if there is a bit of a lull in the action or we wants to get a reaction out of someone it seems to work quite well.  I'm not saying that it's his one and only technique or that he relies on it or anything, another thing that I've found is a lot of people don't expect it.


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## Tez3

Lol! I did assume he did more than that! The problem with MMA, and people often don't think about this is that you have to 'work'. Obviously you are going for a KO or submission to win the fight outright with no doubts as to who the winner is but you also have to think that if it does go to the judges your workrate and the effectiveness of your strikes is going to come into play.If there is a lull in the fight I'd want to see something more than a couple of punches to the arms to gain the points or the advantage. Most of our fighters have come up through amateur rules where striking on the arms is common so it wouldn't surprise them too much I think. In the pro fights hitting the arms is common in GnP as the fighter below blocks the punches from above so again being stuck on the arms, repeatedly in this case, is nothing new to fighters I'm afraid.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

Tez3

Very good points, and I talked to my instructor about it, and he, how shall I put it, corrected my statement.
With the striking to the forearm, he'll do it while training in class to help get guys used to getting hit in the forearms either as a strike or as a block, but he informed me he has never actually done so in an actual competition, so I stand corrected, it's not the first time, and oh I know it won't be the last!

I totally agree though, I have refereed a couple fights (couple traditional point sparring, couple MMA) and I agree that I wouldn't think that striking to the forearms was a way to press the action, and I agree with what you stated earlier that, yeah, it would probably just annoy the crap out of your adversary and cause them to want to hit you, hard!​


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## Tez3

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> Tez3​
> 
> Very good points, and I talked to my instructor about it, and he, how shall I put it, corrected my statement.
> With the striking to the forearm, he'll do it while training in class to help get guys used to getting hit in the forearms either as a strike or as a block, but he informed me he has never actually done so in an actual competition, so I stand corrected, it's not the first time, and oh I know it won't be the last!​
> I totally agree though, I have refereed a couple fights (couple traditional point sparring, couple MMA) and I agree that I wouldn't think that striking to the forearms was a way to press the action, and I agree with what you stated earlier that, yeah, it would probably just annoy the crap out of your adversary and cause them to want to hit you, hard!​


 

Sounds as if you and your instructor have a good relationship! A lot of non MMA people post up saying well in MMA they don't do this or that which they take to mean that the fighters can't do the techniques but the problem as I said is that the fighter has to do things that will work and he also has to look as if he's working! I'm not actually sure if non MMA people understand that if fighters don't appear to be working when on the floor they will be stood up by the ref nor that the ref can deduct points for passivity, though perhaps watchers of Pride should know what the yellow cards are for.It's one of those things that make me laugh ( a tad bitterly) when detractors say there's no rules in MMA. There's actually a lot of rules!


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

Tez3 said:


> when detractors say there's no rules in MMA. There's actually a lot of rules!




Much agreed, I've actually talked to people who think that they can get in the ring and pretty much do whatever they want.  I witnessed an amateur fight where the fighters were given the rules when they registered, and one of the rules was no knees to the head and no elbows on the ground (these were amateur fights by the way).  This one guy with an ego big enough to make up for everyone, was fighting and doing quite poorly when he suddenly clinched with the gentleman he was fighting and just started kneeing to his head, both corners and the ref jumped in to break it up.  I asked him afterwards why he had done what he did his response: "They don't call it 'full contact' for nothing, I can do what I want when I want" he went on a bit longer but at this point I stopped listening.  

Point of this winded story, it's not just the ones outside MMA there are the ones who compete that also believe there are no rules!


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## crushing

FearlessFreep said:


> Anybody intentionally use pressure points in MMA? I have some vague thoughts in my head and am curious if anyone has applied pressure point knowledge to MMA fighting


 
I haven't actually fought MMA, and I've only recently gotten into learning pressure points, but I don't see why they couldn't be used in MMA.

One thing we have done in class is hit the inside leg nerve (LR-9?) with the elbows when in guard to try to force the leg into a position to get in half guard.  It may not work on the more experienced MMAers.

But, another example: if you are trying to put an armbar on someone and they have the hold their opposing hand defense to prevent their arm from being straightened, could activating L-8 help release the opponents hold on himself increasing the chances that you can pull off the armbar technique?

I haven't tried it, I'm just throwing that out there.


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## punisher73

It depends on if you are talking specifically pressure points or atemi.  Atemi is more striking vital spots on the body such as tip of the jaw, side of the neck, etc.

But, there are SOOOO many "pressure points" that whatever you hit is going to be one of them.  So many of the vital spots also have a pressure point in the same location.  For example,  in the UFC Robbie Lawler vs. Tiki:  when you watch the fight Robbie misses with a hook and hits Tiki on the side of the neck which is what knocks him out.  If you go with TCM it is Stomach Pt-9.  It also contains 3 major nerves right there along the SCM (the 3 that seperate in your arm to become the radial, ulna, medial).

Many of the targets would not be legal in an MMA situation.  Even though the side of the neck is a very accessible target for an MMA fighter they can't just hit it due to the rules.  Same with back of the neck strikes.  But, MMA fighters mostly train for moves that will work a high percentage of the time for them with the rule set (different strategies with Pride rules vs. UFC rules with the ring/cage and techs allowed for example).  Are many of them going to spend the limited time working on something that will have a low percentage to be able to use? Probably not.  Which is why I don't think we will see a large amount of fighters trying to learn PP whether it works or not.


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## Shotgun Buddha

crushing said:


> I haven't actually fought MMA, and I've only recently gotten into learning pressure points, but I don't see why they couldn't be used in MMA.
> 
> One thing we have done in class is hit the inside leg nerve (LR-9?) with the elbows when in guard to try to force the leg into a position to get in half guard. It may not work on the more experienced MMAers.
> 
> But, another example: if you are trying to put an armbar on someone and they have the hold their opposing hand defense to prevent their arm from being straightened, could activating L-8 help release the opponents hold on himself increasing the chances that you can pull off the armbar technique?
> 
> I haven't tried it, I'm just throwing that out there.


 
I suppose it depends on how exactly you're performing them. Pain compliance tends not to work too well, due to a mix of the pain tolerance of the fighter and the adrenaline of the fight. So generally rather than attacking or pressuing a point because it will cause pain, your objective should instead be ones that cause set physical reactions, or have to obey certain physical rules.

For example, the escape from the guard you mentioned? We learned something similar, where you place your palms in and under their ribs, and your elbows on the soft spot of their inner thighs, and use this to create pressure and leverage enough to pop the legs open. It may also be neccessary to as it was phrased to me "throw your *** out behind you" in order to make enough pressure. Any pain caused during this is just a bonus, the objective is the physics as it were.

With regards your arm-bar suggestion, I'd need a little clarification on the point you are referring to? 

As for striking pressure points, falls into a couple of categories. Striking muscle groups for example can be very effective, eg shin kick his thigh, or elbowing the arm muscles, but it requires alot strikes for the effects to kick in, and on more conditioned or muscled fighters, you sometimes might as well be hitting a brick wall.
Striking points that have a certain physical reaction eg jaw, temple, solar plexus, liver, kidney, spleen, tends to be fairly effective if you get it right, so in its way those could be considered pressure points. Striking at other points however, you're looking for ones that will provoke reactions other than pain, simply because pain is not a reliable weapon. Anything that messes up his breathing, or interferes with his bodies ability to move properly, would be the right way to go I imagine.


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## crushing

Shotgun Buddha said:


> With regards your arm-bar suggestion, I'd need a little clarification on the point you are referring to?


 
One of the defenses against the armbar is to grab the other arm/wrist to prevent the arm from being extended.  There are pressure points in the wrist that are supposed to weaken the grip when activated.  I thought that if one could weaken that grip by activating a pressure point, one may be more likely to succeed in extending the arm for a submission.

It seems like it may work in theory, but I don't know how well it may work in practice.  Factors that you mention about increased pain tolerance and adrenaline may be limiting factors in succeeding.


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## Shotgun Buddha

crushing said:


> One of the defenses against the armbar is to grab the other arm/wrist to prevent the arm from being extended. There are pressure points in the wrist that are supposed to weaken the grip when activated. I thought that if one could weaken that grip by activating a pressure point, one may be more likely to succeed in extending the arm for a submission.
> 
> It seems like it may work in theory, but I don't know how well it may work in practice. Factors that you mention about increased pain tolerance and adrenaline may be limiting factors in succeeding.


 
I'd say rather than causing pain in the wrist, perhaps look at manipulation of or pressure on the wrist joint? Its something I'll have to play round with a little more myself.


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## loyalonehk

Catalyst said:


> I've never fought MMA and just recently began watching within the last 2 years (so I don't know very much), but would a submission like a rear-naked-choke be considered a pressure point attack?
> 
> If you're applying pressure to a specific point(s), like the carotid arteries, would this qualify as a pressure point attack, depending on the definition?


 

Don't know if this qualifies as an answer.  Maybe call it "Dirty MMA",  with the rear choke applied, I like to drive my thumb into TW17 behind the ear.  If nothing else it causes a bit of an Oh S*#T reaction/panic, distracting them away from his counter for a second or two.

I'll also knead my elbows into Sp 11 to help pass the guard or escape from the Boston crab.  

Just food for thought.  I dont compete in the "Sport" side of it, but we play pretty rough with "surviving the day" in mind. 

:whip:  I love these guys...  LOL


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## Tez3

I HATE ELBOWS TO THE INNER THIGH!

I end up with a row of little bruises on the inside of my thighs! We put our hands on the persons hips rather than the ribs, means you are postured up that bit higher, makes it harder to dislodge or get a triangle choke on you. Once you have passed the guard keep his leg on the floor with your knee on that spot inside his leg just above the knee,while you get to side control.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

Tez3 said:


> I HATE ELBOWS TO THE INNER THIGH!



Whole heartedly agreed and seconded!


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## thetruth

FieldDiscipline said:


> Ali used them in boxing, so why not in MMA?




Is that a known fact or something Dillman told the world cos they trained a bit together and had their picture taken.  The only person I've ever heard say that is George or some one who heard it from George.


Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

My understanding was that was just something Dillman had started basically just to add to his own reputation, but that is just what I had heard.​


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## DavidCC

I am not 100% sure of this, but I believe Dillman worked with Ali years BEFORE he got into kyusho / pressure points.  Dillman was a widely known martial artist before the PP stuff.


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## punisher73

I remember Ali saying he knocked out one of his opponent's with a "karate" punch.  But, it was just a right cross.  That was when he did train with Dillman.


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## Selfcritical

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> I personally think that Pressure Point fighting and MMA fighting will never coexist.  I mean if you're going to introduce pressure points next you'll have to include joint locks,
> 
> 
> ​



And what precisely are armbars and Kimura's then?


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

My appologies I didn't totally make my point (I do this sometimes)  By joint locks I meant the kind of locks you see in Aikido specific wrist locks etc, more like someone using say an Aikido joint lock and control to take someone to the ground, I meant more in that sense.  If that makes any sense.​


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## Tez3

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> My appologies I didn't totally make my point (I do this sometimes) By joint locks I meant the kind of locks you see in Aikido specific wrist locks etc, more like someone using say an Aikido joint lock and control to take someone to the ground, I meant more in that sense. If that makes any sense.​


 
We use Aikido to take people down if we can in MMA. We also use it for self defence. In fact we'll use anything and we're lucky that our instructor has studied many different styles, he's ex military and had to change styles a lot when posted to new camps. Apart from that he's hugely interested in all martial arts, we're very lucky to have him.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

Well then, I will retract my previous statement apparently I was wrong, it has happened before and it will happen again.  Thanks for pointing me more in the right direction!​


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## thetruth

DavidCC said:


> I am not 100% sure of this, but I believe Dillman worked with Ali years BEFORE he got into kyusho / pressure points.  Dillman was a widely known martial artist before the PP stuff.



I'd like to ask Ali about his history with Dillman(I think it may differ from Georges stories) and George wasn't very well known at all before he started pressure points and breaking stuff..

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## The Elemental

Well, what about Bas' *Livershot*, does that count?


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## Tez3

The Elemental said:


> Well, what about Bas' *Livershot*, does that count?


 That is so bad it can count as anything it wants! It's the worse way to be KOd, been put down twice with that in training and I don't think I've ever felt so ill! At least a KO you just go out and wake up!


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## punisher73

Nope, a liver shot would be considered "atemi" or vital point striking which attacks weak points/structures of the body as opposed to striking specific acupuncture points.

Very effective no matter what you call it though.


I do like how you could kick someone in the head and Bas will still call it a liver shot. LOL


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