# Troubleshooting possible trouble student???



## thanson02 (May 24, 2019)

I was wondering if I could get people's input on something that we had happen a few years ago and I realized we had not really resolved in our club, at least not to my satisfaction.

Recently, I was talking to one of our instructors at a regional gathering about a student who would train at the college club I used to run and the club that they trained at.  This student always participated in club events and seemed to always be highly excited to be involved, however it seemed like every other week, she had some form of medical issue come up and it was something that we would have to make exceptions for in her training.  We tried to narrow down on what her condition was so we could look into it more to make sure we could help her grow and progress in her training without making the condition worse, but it seemed that she would give different explanations to different instructors on what she was dealing with and eventually, when we realized this, we decided to buckle down on the standards because many of us felt like she was giving us the run-around and trying to play on our sympathies.  She did eventually graduate college and leave for grad school, so people are not working with her anymore, but there was a lot of disagreement on whether she was seriously having health issues or whether she was pretending.

We are always willing to work with people to help them excel and if there is a medical condition that is preventing this, we are more then willing to work within the limitations of that condition to help them grow regardless.  There was talk about establishing standards on how to address these types of situations so we can weed out the people pretending vs the real cases, but we had problems coming up with something that we all felt satisfied this need.  So I thought I would pick the brains of the collective and see what people have done in regards to these types of situations and what solutions they have come up with to nip these things in the butts before they grow into something that is possibly problematic.


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## CB Jones (May 24, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> There was talk about establishing standards on how to address these types of situations so we can weed out the people pretending vs the real cases,



Why do you need to weed these people out?

Who are they hurting?

It doesnt seem like it's really that big of a problem.  It seems like the way yall handled it worked fine.


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## jobo (May 24, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> Why do you need to weed these people out?
> 
> Who are they hurting?
> 
> It doesnt seem like it's really that big of a problem.  It seems like the way yall handled it worked fine.


agree with this, people may not wish to disclose theit health issues 8n detail and you need to take them at their word. and it really doesn't matter,  if she attends and pays her money and gets benifit then everyone gets what they need out of it. if they dont reach the standard of the grading, then there no different to any other student who fails to reach the required standard, then can choose to leave or try again


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## Buka (May 24, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> I was wondering if I could get people's input on something that we had happen a few years ago and I realized we had not really resolved in our club, at least not to my satisfaction.
> 
> Recently, I was talking to one of our instructors at a regional gathering about a student who would train at the college club I used to run and the club that they trained at.  This student always participated in club events and seemed to always be highly excited to be involved, however it seemed like every other week, she had some form of medical issue come up and it was something that we would have to make exceptions for in her training.  We tried to narrow down on what her condition was so we could look into it more to make sure we could help her grow and progress in her training without making the condition worse, but it seemed that she would give different explanations to different instructors on what she was dealing with and eventually, when we realized this, we decided to buckle down on the standards because many of us felt like she was giving us the run-around and trying to play on our sympathies.  She did eventually graduate college and leave for grad school, so people are not working with her anymore, but there was a lot of disagreement on whether she was seriously having health issues or whether she was pretending.
> 
> We are always willing to work with people to help them excel and if there is a medical condition that is preventing this, we are more then willing to work within the limitations of that condition to help them grow regardless.  There was talk about establishing standards on how to address these types of situations so we can weed out the people pretending vs the real cases, but we had problems coming up with something that we all felt satisfied this need.  So I thought I would pick the brains of the collective and see what people have done in regards to these types of situations and what solutions they have come up with to nip these things in the butts before they grow into something that is possibly problematic.



Sounds like a professional pain in the ash. Yeah, you get them from time to time in dojos.

This part "give different explanations to different instructors on what she was dealing with" would have been enough for me. Fortunately, our door worked both ways.


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## dunc (May 24, 2019)

This seems strange to me
Surely people can attend as frequently or as infrequently as the like as long as they’re not disrupting other people’s training

Or have I missed something?


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## Gweilo (May 24, 2019)

Maybe the student is on the autistic spectrum, this covers a range of issues, but fundermentaly a person with autism basically reads or interprets situations on a different level to shall we say non autistic people, although hyper intelligent,  there ability to express their feelings or understanding of themselves, depends on their mood, situation, or surroundings, and or the people they are interacting with. We have a couple of autistic students that train with us, their understanding of the art is deep, almost personal, their application is flawless, but as explained to me, they are wired slightly different, they have difficulties with explanations of emotions and feelings, but they are bloody good martial artists.


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## Buka (May 24, 2019)

All kinds of people have a curiosity about Martial Arts. Regardless of the size of your dojo, a lot of different personalities will come in at one time or another. If luck of the draw happens to have you running, or training in, a busy dojo, a whole lot more folks will probably come in over the years.

Amongst those peoples coming in, there will be A Holes. There will be crazies. There will be chumps. 
And there will be wonderful people as well. The Arts will attract them all. How you deal with them is up to you.


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## dvcochran (May 24, 2019)

As Buka said, you are going to get all flavors.  I simply do not voice any exceptions or exemptions and try to put everyone on the same plane. As the instructor, it is your job to figure out how each person can do the best they can. I really, really try to keep personalities out of that equation. 
The most memorable student I ever had was a man who was born with one leg just below the knee and the other leg missing above the knee. He has absolutely the best attitude about things and doesn't see himself as different. So I never treat him differently. When we come to something he physically cannot do, we will chat about it and figure out another way. Does what he is doing look very different? Yes. Does it matter to him, me, or anyone in class? Not that I am aware of. He can be a stone cold killer with his hands, so much so that some people are wary of working with him. 
I point him out to say NEVER label someone. So they are different, that's OK. Just don't treat them that way and make sure they understand the expectations are real. If they cannot deal with that they will usually find the door on their own.


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## thanson02 (May 24, 2019)

dunc said:


> This seems strange to me
> Surely people can attend as frequently or as infrequently as the like as long as they’re not disrupting other people’s training
> 
> Or have I missed something?



No you haven't.  It was strange.  One of the complaints from one of the assistant instructors was that she would explain why she was not able to do something instead of talk about the issue and work to come up with solutions.

On the flip side, another example of a student we have who still trains: This woman has had issues with confidence with her weight and at times has left the room while training because the workout triggered her self-esteem and she needed to go and cry for a bit.  She steps out of the room, takes a couple minutes to do her thing, and then comes back in and is fine.  she never made a show of it and many times, people don't realize she has stepped out.  She is always pleasant and is eager to help out, also, when we gave her a workout plan to help her with her weight, she followed it with no complaints.  She is not a high roller in regards to application (although, most would not want to grapple her ), but she has become someone that people respect and admire because of how well she has done.......................

Actually, I think I just answered my own question.  I think I just needed a example of what a "win" was so we can make a good track for people to set as a standard.

Thank you everyone.  Sometimes you just need to talk it out to get it strait in your head.


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## thanson02 (May 24, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> It doesnt seem like it's really that big of a problem.  It seems like the way yall handled it worked fine.



Thank you.


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## thanson02 (May 24, 2019)

Buka said:


> Sounds like a professional pain in the ash. Yeah, you get them from time to time in dojos.
> 
> This part "give different explanations to different instructors on what she was dealing with" would have been enough for me. Fortunately, our door worked both ways.



That, for the most part, is what my wife said.  They did not get along at all.


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## Buka (May 25, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> No you haven't.  It was strange.  One of the complaints from one of the assistant instructors was that she would explain why she was not able to do something instead of talk about the issue and work to come up with solutions.
> 
> On the flip side, another example of a student we have who still trains: This woman has had issues with confidence with her weight and at times has left the room while training because the workout triggered her self-esteem and she needed to go and cry for a bit.  She steps out of the room, takes a couple minutes to do her thing, and then comes back in and is fine.  she never made a show of it and many times, people don't realize she has stepped out.  She is always pleasant and is eager to help out, also, when we gave her a workout plan to help her with her weight, she followed it with no complaints.  She is not a high roller in regards to application (although, most would not want to grapple her ), but she has become someone that people respect and admire because of how well she has done.......................
> 
> ...



Had a few like your second example over the years, fortunately it all worked out well. People in the dojo took them under wing and that really helped.

Toughest part of either example is when dealing with young instructors. They probably don't have the experience helping/dealing with students like that. And why would they?


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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> That, for the most part, is what my wife said.  They did not get along at all.


I'm struggling to understand what the problem was .? what was she declining to do and how did that adversely effect you or 9ther students ?


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## Headhunter (May 25, 2019)

I don't see the issue....if she's making stuff up then that's on her. She won't progress but she doesn't sound like a bad person if she's turning up and doing events. You can't kick someone out for lying about an injury if she is then well ok that's her business but as long as she's paying her money and not hurting anyone or disrupting anyone else's learning then just let her do what she does


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## Headhunter (May 25, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> That, for the most part, is what my wife said.  They did not get along at all.


Are we sure THATS not the main issue with her then?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> I was wondering if I could get people's input on something that we had happen a few years ago and I realized we had not really resolved in our club, at least not to my satisfaction.
> 
> Recently, I was talking to one of our instructors at a regional gathering about a student who would train at the college club I used to run and the club that they trained at.  This student always participated in club events and seemed to always be highly excited to be involved, however it seemed like every other week, she had some form of medical issue come up and it was something that we would have to make exceptions for in her training.  We tried to narrow down on what her condition was so we could look into it more to make sure we could help her grow and progress in her training without making the condition worse, but it seemed that she would give different explanations to different instructors on what she was dealing with and eventually, when we realized this, we decided to buckle down on the standards because many of us felt like she was giving us the run-around and trying to play on our sympathies.  She did eventually graduate college and leave for grad school, so people are not working with her anymore, but there was a lot of disagreement on whether she was seriously having health issues or whether she was pretending.
> 
> We are always willing to work with people to help them excel and if there is a medical condition that is preventing this, we are more then willing to work within the limitations of that condition to help them grow regardless.  There was talk about establishing standards on how to address these types of situations so we can weed out the people pretending vs the real cases, but we had problems coming up with something that we all felt satisfied this need.  So I thought I would pick the brains of the collective and see what people have done in regards to these types of situations and what solutions they have come up with to nip these things in the butts before they grow into something that is possibly problematic.


One option is to ask for a note from their doctor. You can provide them with a "request" note that details what information you need. This is a reasonable request when you're not getting a clear answer, as you can't properly protect them (and thus yourself from legal issues). It would be reasonable whether they are faking or not.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> agree with this, people may not wish to disclose theit health issues 8n detail and you need to take them at their word. and it really doesn't matter,  if she attends and pays her money and gets benifit then everyone gets what they need out of it. if they dont reach the standard of the grading, then there no different to any other student who fails to reach the required standard, then can choose to leave or try again


I disagree somewhat, Jobo. An instructor has a duty to help protect students from injury. An unspecified medical condition doesn't make that possible. It clearly has some impact, but the student doesn't seem to have been capable of clarifying exactly what that impact is. In the US, that would also open up some liability, should the student get injured in class.


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## thanson02 (May 25, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Are we sure THATS not the main issue with her then?


It didn't help, I won't lie.

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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I disagree somewhat, Jobo. An instructor has a duty to help protect students from injury. An unspecified medical condition doesn't make that possible. It clearly has some impact, but the student doesn't seem to have been capable of clarifying exactly what that impact is. In the US, that would also open up some liability, should the student get injured in class.


I said in detail, the issue here seems to be that she has disclosed  health problems to a number of instructors,  I presume to 3xcus3 her self from various exercises she feel are detrimental to her health,  a very mature and sensible thing to do and he doesn5 believe her and feels a healthy respect for your own health is lower the standards of his dojo 

8f his concern was for the wellbeing of the student I would agree with your assessment, but that seems not to be 5h3 case here ?


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## thanson02 (May 25, 2019)

Buka said:


> Had a few like your second example over the years, fortunately it all worked out well. People in the dojo took them under wing and that really helped.
> 
> Toughest part of either example is when dealing with young instructors. They probably don't have the experience helping/dealing with students like that. And why would they?


And that is the main point right here.  When you're running the school or club and you're the only instructor, you can pretty much handle things as you see fit based on what you're seeing. However when you got a leadership team that you're trying to not just work with but also educate on how to be a good instructor, setting up standard rules and how to handle particular situations helps with that process.  In this particular case the problem wasn't the student, it was the fact that we realize that we hadn't come up with a standard set of operations to deal with this particular situation the student brought forward in a way that kept everybody on the same page.

Also if there's interpersonal issues, you have a organizational structure to default to as a standard of how to handle those interactions.  The same thing you would see with a HR department with a corporation.

Maybe looking at HR procedures in corporations would be a good thing to do.............

Side note: There were other things going on with the student and how the student was interacting with some of the assistant instructors that fed into the situation.  I just didn't feel like going into a bunch of college-age kid drama.

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## thanson02 (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> 8f his concern was for the wellbeing of the student I would agree with your assessment, but that seems not to be 5h3 case here ?



No, the focus was the well-being the student. It was also about coming up with an organizational structure to give my assistant instructors guidelines to help out with that process and keep everybody on the same page.



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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> No, the focus was the well-being the student. It was also about coming up with an organizational structure to give my assistant instructors guidelines to help out with that process and keep everybody on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-M153 using Tapatalk


well you didn't mention that at all, just your wife had taken again a young girl and you 5hough5  she was lowering standards.

show me were you expressed the slightest concern for her well being


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## Headhunter (May 25, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> It didn't help, I won't lie.
> 
> Sent from my LG-M153 using Tapatalk


Then tbh you should get over yourself. Just because someone doesn't get on with your wife doesn't mean you need "weed them out" an instructor should be able to put personal feelings aside when training. If you can't then that's unprofessional


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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> I said in detail, the issue here seems to be that she has disclosed  health problems to a number of instructors,  I presume to 3xcus3 her self from various exercises she feel are detrimental to her health,  a very mature and sensible thing to do and he doesn5 believe her and feels a healthy respect for your own health is lower the standards of his dojo
> 
> 8f his concern was for the wellbeing of the student I would agree with your assessment, but that seems not to be 5h3 case here ?


The issue in the OP seemed to be that she presented a slightly different explanation of her medical issue each time - never really disclosing what the condition is that's causing the problems.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Then tbh you should get over yourself. Just because someone doesn't get on with your wife doesn't mean you need "weed them out" an instructor should be able to put personal feelings aside when training. If you can't then that's unprofessional


"Just because" seems to ignore the entire OP.


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## thanson02 (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> well you didn't mention that at all, just your wife had taken again a young girl and you 5hough5  she was lowering standards.
> 
> show me were you expressed the slightest concern for her well being


Well, the fact that we're having this conversation for starters.  If I wasn't concerned about the well-being of my students, I wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.

Also, the particular student who brought the situation forward is someone who I kept in contact with since she graduated. Her and I still talk about how to handle things when stress is high and she's not sure what to do, although it has become way less frequent and she seems like she's doing really good with life right now.

My main thing moving forward right now, especially since I've recently moved to a new town and I'm reflecting on business operations to make sure that I'm moving forward better than I've done in the past, which is something I think everybody should do because if you're not evolving, then you're being stagnant and we all know what happens when you become stagnant in your training.  A bunch of people during the last regional event got talking about this particular student, and I was wondering if there was a better way to address the particular situation that revolved around her so that moving forward, my students getting what they need and they're still learning what they need to learn within our community.  I'm not expecting them all to be high rollers and I'm not expecting them all to be superstars man.  if they get one thing of value that helps them improve their lives across the board, I'm a happy camper.

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## Buka (May 25, 2019)

Loved reading that.


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## thanson02 (May 25, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Then tbh you should get over yourself. Just because someone doesn't get on with your wife doesn't mean you need "weed them out" an instructor should be able to put personal feelings aside when training. If you can't then that's unprofessional


No, that is a fair criticism and based on how I phrased my original post, that is an understandable reaction to what I said.  I'm going to meditate on that for a while.......

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## Headhunter (May 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> "Just because" seems to ignore the entire OP.


"Just because" the fact that he said himself that the fact she didn't get on with his wife didn't help the matter and obviously that outside factor affected his opinion of his student


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## thanson02 (May 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The issue in the OP seemed to be that she presented a slightly different explanation of her medical issue each time - never really disclosing what the condition is that's causing the problems.


And people felt like they were being lied to and getting the runaround.

Somebody brought up earlier on the post is that people get uncomfortable talking about their medical problems, and that's something to take into consideration with these conversations. There is a lot of social stigma that revolve around whether someone is dealing with a particular medical condition, whatever that happens to be. Making it clear to the assistant instructors that just because a student is not being clear on what's going on, doesn't mean that they don't have a legitimate issue. Especially when you have a bunch of younger instructors who might just not understand that.

Also as Headhunter did point out, in a professional environment you need to take a personal feelings and check them at the door.  If you're having a personal issue with somebody, you need to be self-aware enough to realize that it's a personal issue.  You are there to do a job and if your feelings are interfering with that, that is on you, not them.

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## thanson02 (May 25, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> "Just because" the fact that he said himself that the fact she didn't get on with his wife didn't help the matter and obviously that outside factor affected his opinion of his student


In all due respect, I think you are focusing too much on my wife.  Yes there were disagreements and they didn't get along all the time, but that's not the core of the issue and if you re-read my follow-up post, I think you will see that.  If you want to disagree with that, that's fine. That's your choice.

The core of the issue is creating an environment where people are learning skill sets to have quality relationships and help them grow and progress and constantly working to improve on that. I recently was reflecting on one incident that has happened in the last 10 years and thought it was a possible area of improvement.  I didn't go into the nitty-gritty details about everything that happened because I didn't think I had to because a lot of it just seems like interpersonal drama that I was able to manage at the time, but I I felt reflecting on it, that I can do a better job if something like this comes up again moving forward.

Regardless, this conversation has been good and helping me reflect on improving my operations moving forward. None of us have perfect track record when it comes to our histories in regards to training and teaching, but as long as we're working to be better and improve, I think that's what's important.

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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> "Just because" the fact that he said himself that the fact she didn't get on with his wife didn't help the matter and obviously that outside factor affected his opinion of his student


Affected the matter isn't the same as "just because". There were other reasons. That was my point.


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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> Well, the fact that we're having this conversation for starters.  If I wasn't concerned about the well-being of my students, I wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.
> 
> Also, the particular student who brought the situation forward is someone who I kept in contact with since she graduated. Her and I still talk about how to handle things when stress is high and she's not sure what to do, although it has become way less frequent and she seems like she's doing really good with life right now.
> 
> ...


right your still 8n contact with this young lady, I wonder why your wife took against her ?.


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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The issue in the OP seemed to be that she presented a slightly different explanation of her medical issue each time - never really disclosing what the condition is that's causing the problems.


she may have had multiple conditions that effe Ted different activities


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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> she may have had multiple conditions that effe Ted different activities


She may. Clarifying that would have been helpful. That's rather the point.


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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> She may. Clarifying that would have been helpful. That's rather the point.


if any one had formally asked her would be a start, she of course has a right to privacy, so she may not wish to divulge. saying I'm a ma master tell me all of your private and possibly embarassing medical details doesn't really change that


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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> if any one had formally asked her would be a start, she of course has a right to privacy, so she may not wish to divulge. saying I'm a ma master tell me all of your private and possibly embarassing medical details doesn't really change that


Saying, "I'm responsible for the well-being of those I train, and for the program" is a pretty good reason to divulge information. As an instructor, I'd be okay if someone doesn't want to share their exact diagnosis...IF they are consistent in describing the limitations involved. If they are inconsistent, I'm going to have concerns for them (and for my own liability).


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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Saying, "I'm responsible for the well-being of those I train, and for the program" is a pretty good reason to divulge information. As an instructor, I'd be okay if someone doesn't want to share their exact diagnosis...IF they are consistent in describing the limitations involved. If they are inconsistent, I'm going to have concerns for them (and for my own liability).


you want a diagnosis but not an exact diagnosis?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> you want a diagnosis but not an exact diagnosis?


I'd be okay with consistent identification of limitations.


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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'd be okay with consistent identification of limitations.


so you dont require a diagnoses exact or otherwise,


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## Gerry Seymour (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> so you dont require a diagnoses exact or otherwise,


Not if they are consistent in stating their limitations.


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## jobo (May 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Not if they are consistent in stating their limitations.


we dont know they wernt


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## thanson02 (May 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> right your still 8n contact with this young lady, I wonder why your wife took against her ?.


Ah, no and she is young enough to be my daughter. Ewwwwwwww

Well our conversation is over.  Moving on.........

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## Gnarlie (May 26, 2019)

We have a declaration signoff in our membership paperwork regarding medical conditions that may affect training or need to be taken into consideration. That way you know from day one. 

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## thanson02 (May 26, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> We have a declaration signoff in our membership paperwork regarding medical conditions that may affect training or need to be taken into consideration. That way you know from day one.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


That is a good idea.

How do you have it set up?  is it just a form or they can go through unless things or is it set up more like a checklist set up?

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## Gnarlie (May 26, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> That is a good idea.
> 
> How do you have it set up?  is it just a form or they can go through unless things or is it set up more like a checklist set up?
> 
> Sent from my LG-M153 using Tapatalk


It's a form where we state that for insurance reasons we need to know if the person has any medical conditions or requirements that may affect their training. This form also includes things like food allergies for events, and allergies to specific medicines or latex in case a person needs to be treated.

There are a lot of cases we would never have known about without it. Diabetics, brain conditions, autism, anaphalaxis...it's quite surprising.

We also ask for written confirmation that it is safe to participate from a doctor where a condition is new to us. Keeps us covered in the unfortunate event. 

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## thanson02 (May 26, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> It's a form where we state that for insurance reasons we need to know if the person has any medical conditions or requirements that may affect their training. This form also includes things like food allergies for events, and allergies to specific medicines or latex in case a person needs to be treated.
> 
> There are a lot of cases we would never have known about without it. Diabetics, brain conditions, autism, anaphalaxis...it's quite surprising.
> 
> ...


That is perfect!  Did you guys come up with the farm yourself, was it based on a free template if I'm online?

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## Gnarlie (May 27, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> That is perfect!  Did you guys come up with the farm yourself, was it based on a free template if I'm online?
> 
> Sent from my LG-M153 using Tapatalk


There are templates out there but we designed our own version. 

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## thanson02 (May 27, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> There are templates out there but we designed our own version.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Nice.  I think this was what I was looking for.  Streamlines the process and keeps everyone on the same page.  Win-win!!! [emoji16]

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## advfhorn (Feb 6, 2020)

I would like to say I have seen a few of these people over the years and as a fellow karate ka it did affect my training when they were in class.  Mostly because I would end up being forced to partner with them and they refused to do most of the techniques we were working on (I mean would not try even altering it at all).  It got to the point that I was not getting a chance to practice the skills I should have been.  Its one thing if they have a serious medical issue bu when the story keeps changing and you consistently cannot participate you have to ask if anyone is benefiting.


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2020)

Admittedly late to this but I have seen a female tell different 'versions' if you like of what was wrong with her and this would depend on who she told. She would tell a woman exactly what was wrong, an intimate female problem, she would tell a young male something less 'graphic' but nearer the truth that wouldn't embarrass  him and an older male yet something else totally unrelated because she knew he would be totally uncomfortable with knowing any details of any 'female' problem. I've see this in work situations quite often. Put these people together and they would say she was 'changing the story' which of course she was but for a good reason.


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