# A Few Tips from Women's Self-Defense Course



## Lynne (Sep 13, 2007)

Wow, it's been about 20 years since I took a women's self-defense course.  I've remembered some of the tips, techniques, and escapes.  Some of this may seem like common sense to martial artists, but to the everyday woman or man, these are not necessarily common sense maneuvers/responses.  Also, please add your own tips, techniques if you like. If you think something sounds impractical, please point that out as well...especially if you disagree.

1)  If someone is trying to abduct you with a weapon (into a vehicle), such as with a gun or knife, do not obey them.  There is a strong likelihood they will not discharge a firearm, especially if the area is populated.  It would be better if they were to shoot you where you are than drag you off somewhere and do who knows what to you.  And scream loud.  Screaming may be enough to make them flee.

I cannot tell you how many women I've talked to who were surprised that they shouldn't get into a vehicle if someone had a gun.

2)  If you are attacked, scratch the attacker's face. Often, the police will pick up someone with a scratched face and question them.  Well, this used to be the case.  I don't know about today - if that would be considered harrassment.  But I would certainly scratch if I could. For one thing, DNA!

3)  It is not uncommon for an attacker to lift up a woman or man in a bear hug.  The victim should pummel the attacker's knees with her/his heels.  You might break their knee cap(s).  Also, try to aim for the outside of the knees as it's more probable they will buckle and you can get away.  The shins can be pummeled of course.

As a martial artist, we'd probably go for the goodies, too.

4)  The judo roll.  If an attacker is running at you from the front, you can use his momentum to send him flying.  When he reaches you, quickly fall down onto your back, place your feet on his abdomen or front of his hips and PUSH straight up and back.  He will go flying into the air and behind your head, probably quite a few feet if there is enough momentum.

As far as the praticality of this maneuver, I found I could throw lighter men pretty far.  Umm...throwing large men, over 200#, was not so easy even with momentum.  A bad case scenario would be the attacker doesn't have much momentum and the guy lands on top of the victim.

5)  How to take a handgun away from someone and simultaneously break their trigger finger.  This is a move that you cannot do if other victims/innocents are standing to your left side (or right side, depending on which hand the gun is held in) as the gun is going to discharge if loaded.  First, you have to be facing the attacker and close enough to "grab" the gun.  So, the attacker comes up to you, "Put your hands up," he says.  Or maybe he doesn't say to do so.  Either way, you have to be fast.  Let's say the gun is in his right hand.  You are facing him and close.  You raise both of your hands, grab the barrel of the gun with your right hand and twist it to your left and back towards the attacker's back, his right.  Twist it far as you can (it will discharge) and slide it out of his hands.  You now have the gun and he is screaming with a broken finger.  This move has to be almost like a fast slap.  It has to be done in one quick move.

6)  It's possible that someone will try to choke you out.  They will put their forearm around the front of your neck and try to choke you into unconciousness.  You must tuck your chin as hard as you can and hold it there.  This was the first time and the last time that I've experienced sore facial muscles!  We did that exercise often.  The judo guys would try to choke us out.  

I don't know how often this happens, but if anyone ever tries to choke me out I know what to do.

I can't remember all of the throws and sweeps because it's been so long.  I remember there was a judo move called Heeza Garuma.  I only remember the name because my husand made silly jokes and wanted to know how to do "She's-a-brida."

We were also taught how to get out of grips and I've forgotten how.  I remember it was fairly easy - that we circled our arms or something like that.


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## jks9199 (Sep 13, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Wow, it's been about 20 years since I took a women's self-defense course. I've remembered some of the tips, techniques, and escapes. Some of this may seem like common sense to martial artists, but to the everyday woman or man, these are not necessarily common sense maneuvers/responses. Also, please add your own tips, techniques if you like. If you think something sounds impractical, please point that out as well...especially if you disagree.
> 
> 1) If someone is trying to abduct you with a weapon (into a vehicle), such as with a gun or knife, do not obey them. There is a strong likelihood they will not discharge a firearm, especially if the area is populated. It would be better if they were to shoot you where you are than drag you off somewhere and do who knows what to you. And scream loud. Screaming may be enough to make them flee.


 
Never let an abductor take you anywhere; all that's going to do is virtually guarantee that your body will be found somewhere else.  With that said -- there's no support that someone won't shoot.  Screaming or drawing attention to what's happening is a good idea; some people suggest that yelling "FIRE" will get help more reliably, because everyone is threatened by fire.  I don't know...  I don't think that way.  Someone yells help, I'm looking to see what's going on



> 2) If you are attacked, scratch the attacker's face. Often, the police will pick up someone with a scratched face and question them. Well, this used to be the case. I don't know about today - if that would be considered harrassment. But I would certainly scratch if I could. For one thing, DNA!


 
If you're attacked, do all the harm to your attacker you can.  But don't rely on the police to randomly question someone with a scratched face...  It may have been true years ago -- but it's not now.  And, even if I do question someone about facial injuries, unless I know there's been an attack where the attacker was likely injured in the face, I pretty much have to accept whatever story I'm given.  

But, if you're attacked, and you cause visible injuries, AND you report it... it gives something very identifiable to look for.



> 3) It is not uncommon for an attacker to lift up a woman or man in a bear hug. The victim should pummel the attacker's knees with her/his heels. You might break their knee cap(s). Also, try to aim for the outside of the knees as it's more probable they will buckle and you can get away. The shins can be pummeled of course.


 
I don't believe a bear hug is a particularly common attack; there are a lot of problems for a single attacker doing a bear hug.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn to defend one... but I'd want support for the statement "it's not uncommon."



> 4) The judo roll. If an attacker is running at you from the front, you can use his momentum to send him flying. When he reaches you, quickly fall down onto your back, place your feet on his abdomen or front of his hips and PUSH straight up and back. He will go flying into the air and behind your head, probably quite a few feet if there is enough momentum.
> 
> As far as the praticality of this maneuver, I found I could throw lighter men pretty far. Umm...throwing large men, over 200#, was not so easy even with momentum. A bad case scenario would be the attacker doesn't have much momentum and the guy lands on top of the victim.


 
This throw takes training and practice to develop.  I'd suggest you'd be much better off simply learning to fall in the first place, and learning to get out of the dangerous situation.  Again -- this doesn't seem to be a particularly likely attack, outside of narrow situations.  And it's not something you can really "teach" in a few words.


> 5) How to take a handgun away from someone and simultaneously break their trigger finger. This is a move that you cannot do if other victims/innocents are standing to your left side (or right side, depending on which hand the gun is held in) as the gun is going to discharge if loaded. First, you have to be facing the attacker and close enough to "grab" the gun. So, the attacker comes up to you, "Put your hands up," he says. Or maybe he doesn't say to do so. Either way, you have to be fast. Let's say the gun is in his right hand. You are facing him and close. You raise both of your hands, grab the barrel of the gun with your right hand and twist it to your left and back towards the attacker's back, his right. Twist it far as you can (it will discharge) and slide it out of his hands. You now have the gun and he is screaming with a broken finger. This move has to be almost like a fast slap. It has to be done in one quick move.


 
See above; this is not nearly as effective as you think, especially since you only practiced it with pretty compliant partners, I suspect.  It relies on the assailant performing several missteps, and if you don't evade the line of the muzzle, you've got a great chance to get shot.  It's not something that's really able to be taught well with words only.  If they're that close, I'd suggest that you'd probably be better off moving INSIDE the muzzle, and attacking them directly.



> 6) It's possible that someone will try to choke you out. They will put their forearm around the front of your neck and try to choke you into unconciousness. You must tuck your chin as hard as you can and hold it there. This was the first time and the last time that I've experienced sore facial muscles! We did that exercise often. The judo guys would try to choke us out.


 
Tucking the chin is, at best, only the start of defending against a choke from the rear.



> I can't remember all of the throws and sweeps because it's been so long. I remember there was a judo move called Heeza Garuma. I only remember the name because my husand made silly jokes and wanted to know how to do "She's-a-brida."
> 
> We were also taught how to get out of grips and I've forgotten how. I remember it was fairly easy - that we circled our arms or something like that.


 
If you don't remember them... they weren't that useful.  When I teach pure self defense, everything builds off of everything else.  I'm actually grinding a very small set of princples into the student's mind and body under the guise of teaching techniques.  I respect your goodwill in posting this -- but the reality is that there's a lot of room for improvement.  And there's no substitute for qualified instruction.


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## Lynne (Sep 13, 2007)

Thank you, JKS, for the input.  I really appreciate it.

I had always wondered just how practical or not these techniques were. For instance, trying to take a gun away from someone.  If someone had a gun on me, I'm sure my hands would be shaking and that move has to be done so fast. Even done quickly, the assailant would see a person bringing their hands up I'd think.   Hopefully, with martial arts training I'd be more likely to do a block or chop to the arm of the hand holding the gun and then punch or kick the goodies.

I remember we practiced the judo roll over and over, so I'm sure you're right about practice.  I think it's likely that a victim might end up with the assailant on top.

So, the bear hug is not that common in reality. I didn't know that.

Oddly enough, we didn't practice the grip escapes much or the throws.  The other techniques I remember because we did them over and over.


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## Lynne (Sep 13, 2007)

JKS9199's responses also show their are self-defense courses and there are self-defense courses.


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## Kacey (Sep 13, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Wow, it's been about 20 years since I took a women's self-defense course.  I've remembered some of the tips, techniques, and escapes.  Some of this may seem like common sense to martial artists, but to the everyday woman or man, these are not necessarily common sense maneuvers/responses.  Also, please add your own tips, techniques if you like. If you think something sounds impractical, please point that out as well...especially if you disagree.



Okay... I agree with much of what jks said - but for my own ease I'm going to address these as he did, one at a time.



Lynne said:


> 1)  If someone is trying to abduct you with a weapon (into a vehicle), such as with a gun or knife, do not obey them.  There is a strong likelihood they will not discharge a firearm, especially if the area is populated.  It would be better if they were to shoot you where you are than drag you off somewhere and do who knows what to you.  And scream loud.  Screaming may be enough to make them flee.
> 
> I cannot tell you how many women I've talked to who were surprised that they shouldn't get into a vehicle if someone had a gun.



 This is true.  Your chance of getting out of the situation alive drops to less than 5% if you allow an attacker to remove you from the initial site of the attack.



Lynne said:


> 2)  If you are attacked, scratch the attacker's face. Often, the police will pick up someone with a scratched face and question them.  Well, this used to be the case.  I don't know about today - if that would be considered harrassment.  But I would certainly scratch if I could. For one thing, DNA!



Yell, bite, scream, scratch, kick any part of the attacker you can reach - not for DNA, necessarily, but because attackers want you to be scared into submission - any resistance, especially noisy resistance - will bring attention to the attack that the attacker wants to avoid.  Could you get hurt doing this?  Yes - but your chances of surviving are much better (50% or higher) than they are if you allow yourself to be taken from the scene - and I'd rather be injured than dead. 



Lynne said:


> 3)  It is not uncommon for an attacker to lift up a woman or man in a bear hug.  The victim should pummel the attacker's knees with her/his heels.  You might break their knee cap(s).  Also, try to aim for the outside of the knees as it's more probable they will buckle and you can get away.  The shins can be pummeled of course.
> 
> As a martial artist, we'd probably go for the goodies, too.



Well, first, I can't picture why someone would do this first - perhaps after the person has begun resisting, that would be the next step in submission - but with an unknown assailant, this is a hard move to pull off without startling your victim, and thus giving the victim the chance to yell, bite, scratch, scream, run, etc.  With a known assailant - especially in cases of date rape or similar situations, this may be more likely.  Either way, I see no reason to rely on attempting to kick the knees specifically; with or without experience (but especially without), your chances of hitting a specific target behind you are not good - if I were to attack the leg, I would go for a shin rake with my heel, ending with as solid a stomp as I could manage on the top of the foot, which twisting, using my elbows and hands, and screaming bloody murder.

The same goes for "the goodies", as they are behind you in such a situation, higher, smaller, better protected by the body, and generally harder to reach.  Also, if you don't hit precisely, or don't hit hard enough, you have now royally pissed off the person you've just attacked, who is already attacking you.  I'll stick with the types of counter attacks I listed above.



Lynne said:


> 4)  The judo roll.  If an attacker is running at you from the front, you can use his momentum to send him flying.  When he reaches you, quickly fall down onto your back, place your feet on his abdomen or front of his hips and PUSH straight up and back.  He will go flying into the air and behind your head, probably quite a few feet if there is enough momentum.
> 
> As far as the praticality of this maneuver, I found I could throw lighter men pretty far.  Umm...throwing large men, over 200#, was not so easy even with momentum.  A bad case scenario would be the attacker doesn't have much momentum and the guy lands on top of the victim.



 As far as this goes - if the person is running fast enough that this would work without massive amount of practice, I would sidestep him and try to trip him - an arm across the abdomen, a leg out, etc. - but no matter what I did, I would do it from one side, to avoid the potential concern you listed, of a person landing on top of me.   People who train in Judo or similar styles may try the above, but I just don't train in that type of technique often enough to make it a reasonable choice.



Lynne said:


> 5)  How to take a handgun away from someone and simultaneously break their trigger finger.  This is a move that you cannot do if other victims/innocents are standing to your left side (or right side, depending on which hand the gun is held in) as the gun is going to discharge if loaded.  First, you have to be facing the attacker and close enough to "grab" the gun.  So, the attacker comes up to you, "Put your hands up," he says.  Or maybe he doesn't say to do so.  Either way, you have to be fast.  Let's say the gun is in his right hand.  You are facing him and close.  You raise both of your hands, grab the barrel of the gun with your right hand and twist it to your left and back towards the attacker's back, his right.  Twist it far as you can (it will discharge) and slide it out of his hands.  You now have the gun and he is screaming with a broken finger.  This move has to be almost like a fast slap.  It has to be done in one quick move.



I've taken a gun defense class, and like the Judo roll above, this takes a lot more practice than most people put into it... and any hesitation on the execution, and you've been shot.  This is not something I would tell people at a one-time self-defense course.  The 2 safest places to be when a gun is pointed at you is within 6 feet (room/time to dodge - close enough to sidestep) and outside 30 feet (room time to dodge - far enough to make targeting more difficult)... and while no one _wants_ to be shot, your chances of surviving a gunshot wound are better than your chance of surviving a knife fight, especially with small caliber guns - not that I'm suggesting _letting _yourself be shot, but the maneuver described above is risky if you know how to do and practice it regularly; it could be deadly otherwise.

From close enough to grab the gun, step to one side so the gun is not directly in front of you and slam one or both hands/arms on the arm of the person holding the gun... if you're lucky, he'll drop it; if it goes off, you are now off to the side and the gun is pointing down.  Getting shot in the foot is survivable, especially compared to getting shot in the stomach.



Lynne said:


> 6)  It's possible that someone will try to choke you out.  They will put their forearm around the front of your neck and try to choke you into unconciousness.  You must tuck your chin as hard as you can and hold it there.  This was the first time and the last time that I've experienced sore facial muscles!  We did that exercise often.  The judo guys would try to choke us out.
> 
> I don't know how often this happens, but if anyone ever tries to choke me out I know what to do.



 Turning your head is a good first step - but you can't stop there.  Once you have ensured that you can breathe for a few seconds - you're back to yelling, screaming, punching, kicking, scratching, etc. - because the longer you stand there, the more likely your attacker will change tactics, such at attempting to drag you away, or choosing a more dangerous/painful attack to cause you to submit.  You can't just stop at turning your head.



Lynne said:


> We were also taught how to get out of grips and I've forgotten how.  I remember it was fairly easy - that we circled our arms or something like that.



As with anything else, you will react as you are trained.  If I am grabbed, I am going to kick or punch - because that is my primary training, even though I've spent a fair amount of time learning releases, controls, and so on.  The time I would releases, controls, and other techniques we've imported from Hapkido would be in instances when I don't want to hurt my attacker and have time to think about what I'm doing - say, if I'm at a party and someone has a little too much to drink, and comes on a little too strong.

When I teach women's self-defense, I tend to include statistics such as the ones found here, because one of the biggest dangers is that women don't think it can happen to _them_ - awareness of danger, and thus avoidance of danger, being the best form of defense, and the easiest to teach.


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## howard (Sep 13, 2007)

Hi Lynne,

Very nice post... and I think you got an excellent response from jks9199.  Especially considering his real-life experience.

Gun and knife disarms are always going to be high-risk techniques, regardless of your ability and amount of practice.  They are last resorts.  If you're unfortunate enough to have to resort to one, I believe it's always best to control the limb wielding the weapon.  This typically means controlling the hand.  Blocks, strikes and kicks don't accomplish this.  If I'm attacking you with a knife, and you block, strike or kick my knife hand without controlling it, unless you dislodge the knife, we're right back where we started.  I still have the knife, and you haven't controlled my hand and weapon.

Please... don't ever try to kick a knife out of anybody's hand, and don't ever try to X-block a knife attack.  You're unlikely to be successful.

The judo throw you've described sounds like tomoenage.  It can be an effective technique, especially on nice mats, but consider a couple of things.  First, as jks9199 points out, it takes a lot of practice, because timing is critical in this throw, particularly if your attacker is much larger than you.  As you point out correctly, if you don't get his momentum to send him over your head, he will land right on top of you.  Second, it is a sacrifice throw, which means you're intentionally going to the ground (on your back, in this case).  Would you consider this your best option on a street or sidewalk?  IMO there are other judo / jujutsu techniques that are more appropriate, because you remain standing when you do them, while taking your attacker down if they succeed.

Hiza guruma (knee wheel) is another throw that I'd personally consider a bit complex for basic self defense.  Even though you don't leave your feet to do it, it requires pretty good skill at unbalancing your attacker properly (as do all throws).  If you're in a position to block his outer knee out with your foot to do that throw, I think you're also in a position to kick the hell out of his shin or crotch.  A good, hard kick right into the shin may be a better bet than the proverbial kick to the crotch.  Remember, us guys know, from instinct and life experience, to protect our crotches.  But few of us instinctively expect to be kicked in the shin.  Kicks to the shin can be very effective.  They are hard to detect (and therefore block), and for most of us, they hurt like hell.  A good, hard kick right square on the shin may buy you just enough time to run away.

When you talk about grabs, it sounds like you're talking mostly about wrist grabs, since you mention escapes rather than locks.  I know that you learn escapes from wrist grabs in TSD, but do you also learn any locking techniques?  They can be very effective, and several are basic enough to be practical in self defense.  Also (IMO), locks are more practical from grabs to pretty much any part of your body other than your wrist, or to your clothing.

I think a good basic strategy for both men and women who must resort to self defense is, when in doubt, strike somehow.  Your basic hand strikes and kicks my be enough to do the job.  Elbows and knees are great in these situations, since you're going to be in grappling range.  And try pinches / twists of small bits of skin on the inner thigh if you can - that hurts like bloody hell.

Just one more thought for now... I believe jks9199 is dead right when he says that if an abductor gets you into his car, you're pretty unlikely to be found alive.  I've seen stats for that somewhere, but can't remember where... sorry.  But the moral is, do whatever you can to keep from being put into the car.

Nice topic.  I hope others will contribute.  Sorry for rambling.


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## Cruentus (Sep 13, 2007)

I'll address some of your points by #s, and I'll try not to duplicate others responses here. 

2. If your attacked you need to be focused on causing as much trauma as quickly as possible to change the attackers focus which is on hurting you. "Scratching" isn't nessicarily the best way of accomplishing this. Eye gauging, and face grabbing and fish-hooking maybe, which may result in scratches; but your going to be worried about getting the attacker to STOP attacking you at that moment, not DNA evidence.

4. "Judo roll" is a bad idea for most people where there is a size difference (smaller victim larger attacker). The end result will most often be you pulling the attacker on to your body with you on your back, making a bad situation worse because now you have to contend with a larger/stronger person who is now ON TOP OF YOU in a dominant position.

5. Really, in most cases people shouldn't be trying to disarm a gun, period. There are acceptions, but they are rare. People seem to overestimate the accuracy of the shooter in these situations. Your highest probability of success here is to simply run away on an angle, spuratically changing directions. There is a much higher probability of them completely missing you while your running away then them missing you while your close and trying to take away the weapon.

As to defense from 1-handed grabs, I agree with JKS. Your best bet is to simply strike hard and vigorously with your other weapons.

That's good for now! 

C.


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## howard (Sep 13, 2007)

Kacey said:


> The time I would releases, controls, and other techniques we've imported from Hapkido would be in instances when I don't want to hurt my attacker and have time to think about what I'm doing - say, if I'm at a party and someone has a little too much to drink, and comes on a little too strong.


A little off topic, perhaps, but worth saying anyway...

Original Hapkido techniques were designed _specifically_ to injure the attacker.  The notion of using them along a continuum of escalation of force is something that came along later, probably from America.  The techniques that Choi Yong Sul learned in Japan had one purpose: to injure your attacker.  The idea was always that your attacker was trying to do you mortal harm.  You had to respond in kind.

Choi taught an art that was purely oriented toward self defense.  Some still teach it that way.


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## Kacey (Sep 13, 2007)

howard said:


> A little off topic, perhaps, but worth saying anyway...
> 
> Original Hapkido techniques were designed _specifically_ to injure the attacker.  The notion of using them along a continuum of escalation of force is something that came along later, probably from America.  The techniques that Choi Yong Sul learned in Japan had one purpose: to injure your attacker.  The idea was always that your attacker was trying to do you mortal harm.  You had to respond in kind.
> 
> Choi taught an art that was purely oriented toward self defense.  Some still teach it that way.



My point here was that I'm going to respond with what I was primarily trained in first - that is, kicking and punching.  I don't spend nearly the time training hol sin sul that I do striking - so I'd have to be in a situation where I could think about what I was doing, and more importantly - have the _time_ to think about what I was doing - so for me, that would a lower risk situation than the type Lynne is talking about.  For people who train primarily in Hapkido, the responses would be different - I was talking about my own responses.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## thardey (Sep 13, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> 2. If your attacked you need to be focused on causing *as much trauma as quickly as possible* to change the attackers focus which is on hurting you. "Scratching" isn't nessicarily the best way of accomplishing this. *Eye gauging, and face grabbing and fish-hooking maybe, which may result in scratches*; but your going to be worried about getting the attacker to STOP attacking you at that moment, not DNA evidence.



Echo that strongly. 

Even though most people don't need training to physically be able to do this, it does take mental training to get over that revulsion of sticking a thumb or finger _into_ an eyeball or socket, or literally trying to "rip someones" face off", although I would recommend against fishooking, the human mouth is a nasty place, and not where I would want to be sticking my fingers. 

However, don't forget how sensitive ears are, you can control someone's head with them as handles, if you try to rip them off it _really_ disorients them, (plus it would hurt like hell) because of the whole inner ear/balance thing. (remember the old cliche of the little wiry old teacher throwing the football bully out of class by grabbing his ear?)



> 4) The judo roll. If an attacker is running at you from the front, you can use his momentum to send him flying. When he reaches you, quickly fall down onto your back, place your feet on his abdomen or front of his hips and PUSH straight up and back. He will go flying into the air and behind your head, probably quite a few feet if there is enough momentum.


Um, if someone's charging at me like a bull, duck, sidestep, and start running the other direction. By the time he gets stopped and turned around, you're several seconds ahead of him, which is a way bigger advantage than having him on the ground behind you, while you're laying on the ground tucked into a ball, even if it does sound cool.




> 5. Really, in most cases people shouldn't be trying to disarm a gun, period. There are acceptions, but they are rare. People seem to overestimate the accuracy of the shooter in these situations. Your highest probability of success here is to simply run away on an angle, spuratically changing directions. There is a much higher probability of them completely missing you while your running away then them missing you while your close and trying to take away the weapon.


An old friend of mine was a chief on the New Orleans Police dept, and he studied a lot of the statistics regarding how long it takes to draw and fire, etc. One thing he stressed that I remember is that unless you are a very cold blooded S.O.B, or very well trained, everybody hesitates when shooting at another human. With that split-second hesitation, it significantly increases your chances of running away from a pistol, as long as you keep erratically changing directions.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 13, 2007)

Just a few comments here - like everyone has said...make as much noise as possible.  Just remember the Kitty Genovese principle.  Sometimes just screaming and making noise isn't enough....yell "FIRE" or "RAPE" something specific.  Although Fire is proven to be the best response, because it affects everyone indesciminately.  If there are people in the vicinity, try to single out someone to call the police - if AT ALL possible.

If you are ever at the business end of a gun...I think that everyone should be cautioned.  If you plan to try to take the gun away or GET away...be VERY sure that you absolutely need to.  First off, I'd rather lose my wallet than my life.  Second, as mentioned above, most attackers don't WANT to shoot you.  That is a last resort for them - unless they're crazy, high, drunk, etc.  Third, if you DO intend to try to take the gun or get away...be SURE that you know what you're doing and be ready to take a bullet.  Getting a gun away from someone is not as easy as most self defense classes make it sound...and it NEVER works like in the movies.  You can't just cresson kick a gun and knock it away.  In most cases, they will either move or shoot you.  That movement that you're making may be just enough to startle them into pulling the trigger.

The bottom line is USE WHAT YOU KNOW and are comfortable with.  You're not trying to impress someone.  Don't use a "Judo roll" if a side step will do, don't use a commplex wrist lock if pulling away and punching will work....

Also, if you're about to engage in a technique that will seriously injure or maim someone, be prepared for consequences.  I know it sounds crazy, ESPECIALLY if you're being attacked, but in this day and age...it unfortunately happens.  If you rip someone's eyeball out, you may end up on the receiving end of an assault suit, even thought you were the one being attacked.

Bottom line is to RESIST.  Do whatever you can to get away.


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## exile (Sep 13, 2007)

thardey said:


> Even though most people don't need training to physically be able to do this, it does take mental training to get over that revulsion of sticking a thumb or finger _into_ an eyeball or socket, or literally trying to "rip someones" face off", although I would recommend against fishooking, the human mouth is a nasty place, and not where I would want to be sticking my fingers.



This echoes very closely some of the main ideas that emerged from a thread that ran close to a year ago or thereabouts on MT, titles something like `What good is that knife in your pocket', that I think Lisa started (apologies if I'm misremembering). The crucial idea was that there are two components to the use of effective techniques: first, mastering their execution, and second, training the willingness to use them. Even if you know exactly how a knife should be used against another person to injure them severely, very possibly fatally, _can you do it?_ Can you steel yourself to put the tip of the knife against the skin of their throat and push the blade through? This is exactly the point that thardey is raising in connection with eye gouges: _can you bring yourself to do it?_ This is one reason why I have major qualms about much pre-packaged self-defense training: it may be technically excellent, but it will be useless unless the student is willing to steel herself to actually apply these (often exceedingly gruesome) techniques.

This isn't a minor problem: Col. David Grossman, an Army psychologist who developed psychological warfare and desensitization programs for the U.S. military, collected some very extensive statistics in his book _On Killing_ that show quite straightforwardly how hard it is to get soldiers to kill enemy soldiers, even in the thick of firefights. Much of his work on desensititizing soldiers to the act of killing the enemy was prompted by the firsthand observations of battlefield commanders who had witnessed this reluctance to kill in battle firsthand and were, naturally, disturbed by it. But consider the fact that (i) these soldiers had received extensive training in, and encouragement about, killing the enemy, and (ii) in most cases, they would be doing so using `distance' weapons which would minimize the chances that they would have to do damage to the bodies of enemy soldiers which they would be able to sense as they were doing itand _still_ they were more likely to fail to deliberately kill an enemy soldier than not. Then consider the fact that neither (i) nor (ii) will be true for the graduates of various categories of specialized personal self-defense courses. 



thardey said:


> However, don't forget how sensitive ears are, you can control someone's head with them as handles, if you try to rip them off it _really_ disorients them, (plus it would hurt like hell) because of the whole inner ear/balance thing. (remember the old cliche of the little wiry old teacher throwing the football bully out of class by grabbing his ear?)



Note also that a very hard slap to the ear can knock out a large, powerful attacker; there have actually been a couple of reports of deaths as a result of this technique in streetfights.


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## Shidoshi0153 (Sep 14, 2007)

Some very great posts in this section.  I would like to throw my $.02 in here.  A little preparation goes a long way.  When thinking about self-defense we tend to only think about being unarmed, thus the punching, kicking, throwing etc.  Even a simple punch takes time to get comfortable with without breaking yourself.  Instead, I adhere to the simple philosophy of not fighting unarmed.  Here are a few of my suggestions. 

A lighter is one of the best self-defense tools out there.  It is small and compact.  When being choked or grabbed, using the lighter on someone's skin will get an immediate release.  If you can catch hair on fire that is even better.

Keys are wonderful as well.  By striking with keys, you are not doing damage to yourself and the small surface area along with the metallic surface will create intense pain at the surface struck.

Don't forget about mace and pepper spray!

High heel shoes are wonderful weapons.  Not only for stomping, but also to use as a hand-held striking weapon. 

Carry a whistle to blow.  Not only will this be louder than screaming, but in most cases too annoying for people to ignore.  Also, when breathing heavy, sometimes its hard to get out a good scream.

The most important thing to remember is to use these tools as a means to run and escape.  Don't think any one thing will incapacitate or injure your attacker.  You simply want to provide direct, aggressive resistence to get away safely.  

Also, the book by Grossman is an excellent read for anyone and I absolutely agree with the idea of not leaving the scene. Lastly, I would never suggest to anyone to try and take away a gun unless it is without a doubt your last resort.

Great topic!


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## Lynne (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm glad I posted the thread.  It's interesting how some "self-defense" techniques can be impractical, isn't it? I thank you all for your input.  I suspected that some of those techniques I posted were not necessarily useful in most attack situations.

In Tang Soo Do, I'm learning how to punch, block, kick and chop as well as some grappling techniques if I were to end up the ground - much more useful information than the course I'd taken twenty years ago.  One of the things I did get out of that course it to fight for my life.  That in itself made the course useful.

In my Tang Soo Do studies, I will be learning more self-defense techniques.

As far as pepper spray and mace, I believe both are illegal in New York.  Before I leave a facility, I always remove my car keys from my purse or jeans pocket and put them between my fingers.  I don't smoke but I wonder how you would be able to access a lighter quickly if someone were attacking you.  I can see how catching their hair on fire would put an end to things


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## thardey (Sep 14, 2007)

There was a thread here about Pepper/OC spray. I wanted to know if it was actually feasible to carry/use.

The bottom line I got was that the keychain variety is too small to do any good, and the police sized ones are very inconvenient to the average civilian to carry.

I wouldn't trust it, myself.



> Before I leave a facility, I always remove my car keys from my purse or jeans pocket and put them between my fingers. I don't smoke but I wonder how you would be able to access a lighter quickly if someone were attacking you. I can see how catching their hair on fire would put an end to things



Have you ever trained with your keys? Have you hit something with them between your fingers? I haven't personally, so I don't trust using them until I do. (I carry a one-handed opener, myself. It has an led flashlight on the handle, so I can claim I had it out "for the light" if I need it.)


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## still learning (Sep 14, 2007)

Hello,  One thing we teach is the striking/raking of the "eyes" when you have a chance to surprise them.  Poke, gouge, or raking the eyes.

Grabbing and smashing the groin (grab the Balls & squeezed), or use any striking techniques at the groin area.

Also if your attacker falls down or is on the ground stomp the ankles (purpose to to break)...so they cannot get up to chase you.

Try to stay calm and think!  If you think he is going to kill you and you obey his every command?  This is NOT going to work....look for a chance to fight back,  with everything you have in you!

READ: The Gift of Fear...this is a must read for every women who wants to protect themselves.

Aloha (there are a few good men....lots of bad ones too!).


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## jks9199 (Sep 14, 2007)

thardey said:


> There was a thread here about Pepper/OC spray. I wanted to know if it was actually feasible to carry/use.
> 
> The bottom line I got was that the keychain variety is too small to do any good, and the police sized ones are very inconvenient to the average civilian to carry.
> 
> ...


The problem with OC is that it is not an incapicitant; it's very easy for a drunk, high, or simply determined individual to overcome it's effects and continue the battle.  Then there is the small subset of people who are simply immune or nearly so...  Finally, there is almost no chance to avoid being contaminated yourself in most emergency defensive applications...

However, Taser has a newer product aimed at civilians.  I'm a big believer in Taser, after taking the 5 second ride recently in training.  The civilian model delivers a 30 second ride, giving you time to drop it and run for the hills.  And I don't care how determined you are; the current generation Taser WILL incapicitate you.(assuming a successful, two dart hit).  The only problem I currently foresee with the civilian model is that you can't activate it without being trained on it -- and I don't know too many people who are running civilian courses.  You won't catch me freely endorsing two many gadgets, especially self defense gadgets.  I'll endorse the Taser.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 14, 2007)

If you're looking for a small easy to carry weapon for self defense, I highly recommend you contact Drac about Pro-Tec Keys.  Theses are the ones that he had at the meet and greet and are great!  I got one for my wife and ordered one for my mom.


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## Shidoshi0153 (Sep 15, 2007)

As far as using keys go, don't stick them between your fingers.  Simply make a fist with your thumb protruding from the top.  One key will fit in here nicely sticking out past the thumb.  You strike as if you are poking someone with your thumb.

Pepper spray and OC is a distance weapon!!  Believe it or not, there is a recommended minimum distance for use.  Something like 10 to 12 feet.  Also, nothing should be viewed as the end all of a conflict.  The purpose is to flee so anything you can do to aid in that goal, do it.  OC may not incapacitate the aggressor, but at least it will blind him for a few seconds.

I too am a huge believer in the taser!!  Some concerns, however, are battery life and the prongs.  The older tasers have rechargable batteries and will drain after some time.  The new ones have lithium batteries.  These will probably be more expensive, but well worth it.  Also, you will still want to train on using the taser.  In order to get a good stun, not only must both probes hit the target, but you need to have a decent amount of distance between them to create a nice arc through the body.  This is easier said then done.  We have yearly in-service training and we always go over shooting a moving target (with training tasers of course).  

The main thing to keep in mind is to be prepared and don't fight unarmed as the simpliest things can give us an advantage.


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## still learning (Sep 15, 2007)

Hello, Weapons are nice...tazers,oc sprays and so on.

But all those weapons can be taken away from you and use against you.

Man will stalk there pray, know there habits and catch you in a suprise state.  By the time you take out your protection tools....maybe too late?

NOT to say: don't carry...just that many times? .....you may not get a chance to use it.

PROVEN: a police officer walk into you office,(unkowning) a man 21 feet away rush the police officer with a knife...will win before the officer can take out his gun.

Most of us will be attack before we know what is happening.

Trust your intincts if something feels wrong!

Get a HUGE dog?  (a great weapon), good companion.

AGAIN: Trust you feelings if something is NOT right.....call the police to escort you to your car/office?

Trust your intincts....if attack?  FIGHT BACK ALWAYS...BECAUSE THERE MAYBE NO TOMMORROW....if rape you won't be the same.....fight back


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## tellner (Sep 21, 2007)

Word on what jks said about pepper spray. 

The biggest weapon is determination, especially the determination to rip the SOB's head off and beat him to death with it. Beyond that, tools can help. The old "It can be taken away and used against you" canard is mostly a way for the self-described elite be they soldiers, cops or men (as opposed to women) to say "Proles like you should stay away from that. Leave it to the pros." Guns and knives get taken away and used against the defender, oh, about the square root of diddly squat. If you can deploy it and are determined it can make life a whole lot easier. Of course, get training, make The Decision, etc. etc.

Disarming an armed attacker? My preference is to run like hell. But if that's not possible the principles are the same in every serious fighting system I've heard of:


Get in close or stay far away and use a longer better weapon
Get into a position of advantage
Isolate the weapon hand from the mechanical support of the rest of the body
Hold on for dear life
Do as much damage as possible while taking the weapon away
Specifics are best learned from a well-trained experienced instructor.


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## still learning (Sep 22, 2007)

Hello,  Most of the attackers on women will usually be bigger and ready to fight you (the women). The attacker usually has a plan and is more prepare.  (women fight back anyway you can)...dig out the I's (eyes)

FEAR:  Is something hard to prepare for and fight against if all alone. Most attacks will come as a surprize.  Many of the women will be to scare in that moment!  (learn to fight back)

Fight like a cat:  they usually win against bigger dogs!

Most times fears will cause you to forget all those fancy martial art moves...
LEARN A FEW SIMPLE TECHNIQUES ....keep it simple and easy to remember?  Fight like a cat:  anything goes!

READ: the Gift of FEAR!   great pointers in this book for rape preventions and other harssments!

Practice against "Woofing" is near to adrenline training...will help you focus on fighting back! 

Aloha


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