# Dubai police use enhanced interrogation on NYer.



## Bob Hubbard (May 14, 2011)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/0...il-time-united-arab-emirates/?test=latestnews



> Foster claims police bound him to a chair and beat him. He said he was also forced to write a confession in Arabic.
> "[One officer] proceeded to whip my feet and  hit me in the face," Foster said. "He said this wouldn't stop until I  confessed. He kept going and going and each time got more. &#8230; It was  horrible. It got to the point where I would've told them anything they  wanted to hear."



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tortured-Dubai-police-souvenir-handcuffs.html



> Foster said he was tortured and forced to write a confession in Arabic but he had no idea what it actually said.
> 'The  pain was unimaginable so I told them I did it. I told them ''I'm  sorry''. I have no idea what [the confession] said,' he told CNN by  telephone.





> Foster claims that after maintaining his innocence for several hours he was beaten and forced to confess.
> He  said he was told to take off his shoes and socks and handcuffed to a  chair while one of the officers  whipped the bottom of his feet. He   said he was also punched in the face.



Sounds legal to me.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

A British man recently died while in custody in a Dubai police station, it's alleged he died after being badly beaten.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/14/holiday-briton-dies-in-dubai-police-custody


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

this is the difference between waterboarding an unlawful enemy combatant captured on the battlefield and actually torturing a criminal suspect. The criminal suspect should not be beaten or waterboarded and should have been protected from the beating. In a beating like this there is both short and sometimes long term damage and in Tez's case it can lead to death. Wait...I thought that when Obama came to office all of this barbarity would be over. He even stopped waterboarding, you know, the mild form of interrogation that led to the capture of bin laden, so you would think that the rest of the world would have responded to his enlightened gesture. Hmmmm...I guess it didn't take.


Real torture, like the beating of the feet can take weeks to heal, unlike waterboarding where a dry towel is all you need.  

*****DISCLAIMER:

I DO NOT, NOR HAVE I EVER, CONDONED ENHANCED INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES AGAINST CRIMINAL SUSPECTS CAPTURED IN THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE THEY ARE PROTECTED BY THE CONSTITUTION.  I DO NOT, NOR HAVE I EVER CONDONED OUTRIGHT TORTURE AS HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED IN THE POST ABOVE.

****END OF DISCLAIMER


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> this is the difference between waterboarding an unlawful enemy combatant captured on the battlefield and actually torturing a criminal suspect. The criminal suspect should not be beaten or waterboarded and should have been protected from the beating. In a beating like this there is both short and sometimes long term damage and in Tez's case it can lead to death. Wait...I thought that when Obama came to office all of this barbarity would be over. He even stopped waterboarding, you know, the mild form of interrogation that led to the capture of bin laden, so you would think that the rest of the world would have responded to his enlightened gesture. Hmmmm...I guess it didn't take.
> 
> 
> Real torture, like the beating of the feet can take weeks to heal, unlike waterboarding where a dry towel is all you need.
> ...


 

I take then you would be happy to demonstrate waterboarding is not torture. I shall expect the video of you being waterboarded then sitting up smiling immediately afterwards to be posted on here or YouTube. Dare yer.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 14, 2011)

Nope, it's all good Bill. All effective. We should allow the local PD in the US to use jumper cables and Adonis's Fists on jaywalkers.

I mean, what could Adonis's Fist ever damage?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 14, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I take then you would be happy to demonstrate  waterboarding is not torture. I shall expect the video of you being  waterboarded then sitting up smiling immediately afterwards to be posted  on here or YouTube. Dare yer.



I think way back when I offered to be waterboarded if the folks declaring it ok would too.
Didn't get any takers if I recall.


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 14, 2011)

You guys realize this was done in Dubai right...
not in the USA


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> You guys realize this was done in Dubai right...
> not in the USA


 
The point is that some people in the Allied countries etc say it's alright to torture people from Dubai (among other places) in America and Europe but when the reverse happens it's not alright.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

Of course I won't be waterboarded, it is really, really unpleasant.  That is why hardened mass murderering terrorists break and start spilling all of their information, including the information that led us to the  man they probably would have died to protect, except I heard an interview that OBL and KSM did not really get along.  The point is that it is really unpleasant, but at the same time not permanently or temporarily damaging to the mass murderering terrorist leader that it is used on.

Two medal of honor winnng former P.O.W.'s have supported waterboarding mass murdering terrorists,  Bud Day and his fellow P.O.W.  Leo thorsness, saying it is harsh treatment but not torture.  they should know the difference don't you think.  Look them up.

the unpleasant factor is also why it shouldn't be used against U.S. citizens unless they are captured during combat as unlawful enemy combatants.  Criminals should not be waterboarded either.

However, unlawful combatant terrorists planning on killing, torturing or raping thousands, or tens of thousands or for that matter even one innocent person, should be waterboarded, if it is determined they may have high value information, like the location of Bin laden or the inner workings of al queda,  that may save those lives.  that I can live with and would do the waterboarding, with proper supervision, myself.   Only one of us is willing to really try to stop the torture of innocent people.  Letting terrorists detonate bombs kills and tortures.  I want to stop it, using a form of interrogation that doesn't harm the terrorist, but gets the information.


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## Twin Fist (May 14, 2011)

and THAT is why i dont go to dubai, or mexico for that matter....


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Of course I won't be waterboarded, it is really, really unpleasant. That is why hardened mass murderering terrorists break and start spilling all of their information, including the information that led us to the man they probably would have died to protect, except I heard an interview that OBL and KSM did not really get along. The point is that it is really unpleasant, but at the same time not permanently or temporarily damaging to the mass murderering terrorist leader that it is used on.
> 
> Two medal of honor winnng former P.O.W.'s have supported waterboarding mass murdering terrorists, Bud Day and his fellow P.O.W. Leo thorsness, saying it is harsh treatment but not torture. they should know the difference don't you think. Look them up.
> 
> ...


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## Bob Hubbard (May 14, 2011)

I like Dubai.  They have a cool ski resort.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

I have an Idea.  Let's have the first Martialtalk.com convention.  Instead of the regular Saturday night dance we will have a different event.  If Tez agrees, we will both undergo interogation, since she thinks that I should be waterboarded to prove my point.  This is how it would work.  I will be waterboarded under the Christopher hitchens and Mancow muller technique where you release hand grips when you have had enough.  Tez, who thinks that waterboarding is torture will be given information the interogators need to retrieve, and Tez will have front teeth pulled with a rusty pliers until she gives them the information.  They will stop pulling teeth once she gives them the code word or short phrase that will represent the secrets.  A minimum of one tooth will be pulled, just to be fair.  To be fair to the demonstration, no pain killer or medical treatment will be given to either one of us until the sunday afternoon closing ceremonies.    Also, immediately following the interogation, we would each have to eat a nice dinner, perhaps a 12 oz. steak, with a refreshing beverage.  We could then exchange our notes on the experience with the audience.  The one who cannot finnish their dinner is the loser of the debate.  It would be great.  We could all get together and have a good time talking martial arts, politics, and demonstrating that waterboarding, while harsh, is not anything like real torture.  How about that Bob, would you host it?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 14, 2011)

1st, we've already done 5 meets.
2nd, 2 words: Adonis Fist.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I have an Idea. Let's have the first Martialtalk.com convention. Instead of the regular Saturday night dance we will have a different event. If Tez agrees, we will both undergo interogation, since she thinks that I should be waterboarded to prove my point. This is how it would work. I will be waterboarded under the Christopher hitchens and Mancow muller technique where you release hand grips when you have had enough. Tez, who thinks that waterboarding is torture will be given information the interogators need to retrieve, and Tez will have front teeth pulled with a rusty pliers until she gives them the information. They will stop pulling teeth once she gives them the code word or short phrase that will represent the secrets. A minimum of one tooth will be pulled, just to be fair. To be fair to the demonstration, no pain killer or medical treatment will be given to either one of us until the sunday afternoon closing ceremonies. Also, immediately following the interogation, we would each have to eat a nice dinner, perhaps a 12 oz. steak, with a refreshing beverage. We could then exchange our notes on the experience with the audience. The one who cannot finnish their dinner is the loser of the debate. It would be great. We could all get together and have a good time talking martial arts, politics, and demonstrating that waterboarding, while harsh, is not anything like real torture. How about that Bob, would you host it?


 

My mother was tortured by the Nazis, would you like a copy of  her testimony? 

Nice try though, I'm sure you can be much more offensive if you tried.

Btw one of my heroines, she was repeatedly tortured and told them nothing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...SOE-spy-network-recognised-statue-London.html


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

I don't know about that device, but you have to say Bob that my event would bring out a crowd.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

I guess my point that waterboarding is effective would be proven then.  And we would enjoy a nice steak dinner.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I guess my point that waterboarding is effective would be proven then. And we would enjoy a nice steak dinner.


 
WTF? You understand nothing do you? You are simply  childish in your naivety about people aren't you and really, really quite offensive.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 14, 2011)

Bill, we're saying it's torture, it's ineffective, and so on.
Experts agree. The law, agrees. International treaty, agrees.
But we'll differ to your obvious greater than US Law, Greater than experience and greater than treaty position.

Everyone should be waterboarded. Start with the grade school kids accused of stealing lunch money, all the way up to the most evil of types.
It's safe, it's effective, it's wonderful.
Because Bill and 1 hack writer say so, and that, outweighs 100 years of contradictory data.

As to your proposal.... I won't dignify it with a real reply other than to express my disdain.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

Experts actually do not agree.  Even men who have been tortured, for years, do not agree.  Members of the intelligence community do not agree.   The law is not always right or correct and often times hurts the innocent as much as it protects the innocent.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Experts actually do not agree. Even men who have been tortured, for years, do not agree. Members of the intelligence community do not agree. The law is not always right or correct and often times hurts the innocent as much as it protects the innocent.


 

But you are adamant that you are correct about waterboarding working! Only you are correct and those who disagree you subject to tasteless comments about torture. As if you know anything about it!


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)

[yt]Eoa8QwuldXo[/yt]


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

The three terrorists, that's right 3, broke and spilled their information.  Other harsh techniques were used against the guys in gitmo and they also revealed info.  There are a lot of ways to interogate and each case is different.  Should real torture ever be used by the U.S., no.  Waterboarding as one technique to be used by the judgement of trained professional interrogaters, yes.   KSM was waterboarded and we used that intel to eventually track down Bin laden.  The new guidelines in the army manual would be ineffective against hardened terrorists trained to resist.  It might take years to slowly get the information out of them by building relationships with them.  We have men and women overseas on the front lines who may not have years to wait for that intel.  We just captured some Imams here in the states who have been giving money to the Pakistani taliban.  They were captured here, so they should not be interrogated as enemy combatants on the battlefield.  They are alleged to have broken the law, so they get their miranda rights and a lawyer and no enhanced interrogation.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

An article by Judicial Watch who used the  freedom of information act to get information of enhanced interrogation at gitmo.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/news/2...value-enhanced-interrogation-techniques-led-o

from the article:

However, President Obama initially withheld information detailing the results of this program, including alleged terrorist plots that the program prevented. Now this same program is credited with the capture of the world&#8217;s most notorious terrorist. Meanwhile, Attorney Holder&#8217;s Justice Department continues its criminal investigation of the very same CIA employees who may have helped obtain information that President Obama used to kill bin Laden.

&#8220;These documents show that without &#8216;enhanced interrogation techniques&#8217; Osama bin Laden might still be hiding in his compound plotting to kill more innocents.


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)

Bought you a tee shirt.


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)

By the way, any chance you dumb asses could stay on topic here? You know, Dubai, torture of a suspect, lack of getting a decent beer in the country?
No, well, **** you very much then.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> The three terrorists, that's right 3, broke and spilled their information. Other harsh techniques were used against the guys in gitmo and they also revealed info. There are a lot of ways to interogate and each case is different. Should real torture ever be used by the U.S., no. Waterboarding as one technique to be used by the judgement of trained professional interrogaters, yes. KSM was waterboarded and we used that intel to eventually track down Bin laden. The new guidelines in the army manual would be ineffective against hardened terrorists trained to resist. It might take years to slowly get the information out of them by building relationships with them. We have men and women overseas on the front lines who may not have years to wait for that intel. We just captured some Imams here in the states who have been giving money to the Pakistani taliban. They were captured here, so they should not be interrogated as enemy combatants on the battlefield. They are alleged to have broken the law, so they get their miranda rights and a lawyer and no enhanced interrogation.


 

Oh yes very droll, here speaks the expert on all things related to the gathering of intelligence and of all things military. Do you think the USA is going to stop bombing Pakistan anytime soon btw? Just thought I'd ask, I expect you have a nice answer ready.

When did you become such an expert on interrogation techniques btw? Personally my opinion is that you are talking out of your **** but what would I know eh? I know nothing.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

I like that last shirt Last legionarry, you might want to check out Rush Limbaugh's line of Club Gitmo shirts and trinkets.  Oh, a lot of people here on the study will get aggravated fairly easily if you just show videos and pictures without giving your own opinion.  It offends them greatly.  Me, I  think you should express yourself however you feel the need to.  I believe in the free exchange of ideas, whatever they may be.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

No, I'm not an expert but I do listen to those actually involved in the process, Rumsfeld, Bush, leon panetta, I have read and listened to other experts who confirm that waterboarding works.  I would like to see your credentials in interrogation to show me that you have first hand knowledge that it doesn't work.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

The Last Legionary said:


> By the way, any chance you dumb asses could stay on topic here? You know, Dubai, torture of a suspect, lack of getting a decent beer in the country?
> No, well, **** you very much then.


 

If you are talking about getting a beer in Dubai there's plenty of pubs and bars, there's even the ubiquitous Irish pub. In the nightclubs watch for amazingly good looking Russian girls, they chat you up, let you take them back to your place and sleep with them then demand money, if you don't pay up these big Russian men take you out to the desert and you are never seen again. 
Drinking is acceptable there but don't go out on the streets drunk, don't let the taxi drivers rip you off either. 
The police however if they do pick up are more than likely to beat you up.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

YOu would need to ask President Obama, the war monger, about bombing pakistan.  He is the one with control of the drones.  A nobel peace prize winner like him should know when and how to bomb people don't you think?


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)

I think that Rush should be waterboarded. But don't use water. Give me a case of jack, then wait 30 minutes.


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)

I need to stop visiting when drunk.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

Another article on the effectiveness of waterboarding:

http://theacru.org/pdfs/TheInterrogationMemos.pdf

eter Ferrara, John Armor, Ken Klukowski, and Carlos Ramirez The American Civil Rights Union

from the above article:

We also discuss below the enhanced interrogation techniques utilized and their results. The most controversial of these techniques, waterboarding, was used on just three of the most high level detainees who were all senior terrorist leaders involved in high level attacks on Americans and U.S. targets, and who had information regarding planned future attacks. Contrary to some uninformed media commentary, this waterboarding technique has a history of being highly effective in the most difficult interrogations. It was so in these cases, as we will also show below, resulting in information that stopped at least two planned terrorist attacks on American soil that would have killed thousands of Americans. It also produced extensive operational information regarding Al Qaeda that enabled American officials in cooperation with our allies to disrupt and shut down international Al Qaeda networks, and consequently stop untold additional terrorist attacks.

Terrorists such as those affiliated with Al Qaeda and others do not qualify for the legal protections under the Geneva Conventions. They do not wear uniforms identifying the authority they are fighting for, do not carry their weapons openly, and do not abide by the laws and customs of war, particularly by hiding among civilian populations, and expressly targeting innocent civilians for their violent terrorist attacks aimed at the death of those civilians. Indeed, the fundamental methodological operations of terrorism are consciously designed to attack civilization outside the legal boundaries of warfare, precisely because terrorist organizations are not capable of combating the military forces of civilization. Those who nevertheless insist on treating terrorists as if they fall within the legal bounds of war, or even worse as if they fall under the common criminal law, would leave civilized nations vulnerable to terrorist strategies and attacks. This mistake arises primarily because these uninformed advocates do not understand the full scope of the Law of War, as discussed further below.


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)




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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> No, I'm not an expert but I do listen to those actually involved in the process, Rumsfeld, Bush, leon panetta, I have read and listened to other experts who confirm that waterboarding works. *I would like to see your credentials in interrogation to show me that you have first hand knowledge that it doesn't work*.


 
I'm sure you would. My bosses wouldn't be too happy though lol. I do know it doesn't work though. I can give you a slightly dryer variation on waterboarding, secure your prisoner, blindfold him, pour water over him while waving a rag soaked in petrol under his nose, then take his blindfold off so he can see you lighting matches. No, it doesn't make him talk an awful lot but it will make him wet himself. That should amuse you as you seem to think waterboarding works, if the fear of being burnt alive doesn't work I don't think the threat of drowning does, not unless of course you can actually drown someone in front of your prisoner to prove it works, but then he'd think well I'm going to die and die fairly quickly so they still won't get any info.

Why you think waterboarding will work on people who are so willing to die for their cause that they blow themselves up beats me. Compared to being blown up, drowning is a fairly tame death. these people have a death wish they don't mind dying, you know all those virgins etc.


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)




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## billc (May 14, 2011)

From my above post:

Former CIA Director Hayden and former Attorney General Mukasey write, Of the thousands of unlawful combatants captured by the U.S., fewer than 100 were detained and questioned in the CIA program. Of those, fewer than one-third were subject to any of the [enhanced interrogation] techniques....7
Only three of these individuals were subjected to the final interrogation stage of waterboarding. One of these was Khalid Sheik Mohammad (KSM), who was the operational mastermind behind the September 11, 2001 attacks. KSM was captured by Bush Administration officials in Pakistan with the help of that nations government. Even before his capture, the CIA considered him to be one of al Qaedas most important leaders...based on his relationship with Usama Bin Laden and his reputation among the al Qaida rank and file.8	After 9/11, KSM


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

Actually, that is not accurate, he was waterboarded three times, water was poured 182 times, but it is misleading because there are strict limits on how much water for what length of time can be used on the murerering terrorist.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

Tez, it worked on the three guys they used it on, all three hardened terrorist killers, the guy who cut Daniel pearls head off for one.  It worked.  There is no doubt about that.  It works when it is used in military training, it worked on Hitchens and it worked on Mancow.  Waterboarding works, and it leaves no lasting damage.


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)




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## billc (May 14, 2011)

The rules for who gets waterboarded:

http://theacru.org/pdfs/TheInterrogationMemos.pdf

Such waterboarding may only be used if (1) the CIA has credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent, (2) there are substantial and credible indicators the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or delay this attack, and (3) other interrogation methods have failed or are unlikely to yield actionable intelligence in time to prevent the attack. As a result, this technique was used on only three terrorist detainees during the Bush Administration, as discussed above. Despite uninformed public statements to the contrary with no basis or foundation, this technique has a long history of being very effective in obtaining the sought after information. It was in the three cases it was used during the Bush Administration, stopping actual planned terrorist attacks that would have killed thousands of innocent Americans, and yielding reams of additional information, as discussed further below.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

From the memo above:

http://theacru.org/pdfs/TheInterrogationMemos.pdf

Results of the Enhanced Interrogation Program
The CIA has stated in writing that it believes that the intelligence acquired through such enhanced interrogations &#8220;has been a key reason why al-Qai&#8217;da has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.&#8221;13	In particular, before their enhanced interrogations, KSM and Zubaydah had &#8220;expressed their belief that the general US population was &#8216;weak,&#8217; lacked resilience, and would be unable to &#8216;do what was necessary&#8217; to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.&#8221;14	But after enhanced interrogation with waterboarding &#8220;KSM and Abu Zubaydah have been pivotal sources because of their ability and willingness to


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

also:

The U.S. government has applied waterboarding to thousands of American military personal during SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) training over many years. Yet, there has not been one case of serious physical harm or prolonged mental harm.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

International law and waterboarding:

UN Convention Against Torture
The United States is a party to an international treaty entitled The United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (hereafter UN Convention). The federal torture statute discussed above, and various other federal and state criminal laws not applicable here, satisfy obligations under the treaty in regard to torture.	The Senate, in ratifying the treaty, adopted a reservation to Article 16, which is the provision that prohibits other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The reservation provides, [T]he United States considers itself bound by the obligation...only insofar as the term cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. This reservation limits the obligations of Article 16 of the treaty upon the United States under international law.
The treaty, therefore, does not prohibit the United States from imposing other treatment or punishment, besides torture, not already prohibited by the Constitution.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

Really you couldn't have just put that in one post? Trying to get your post count up? Peddle your meshugas where someone actually cares.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

From the memo:

The enhanced interrogations of Zubaydah led to the capture of KSM in the first place. As
Hayden and Mukasey explain, Zubaydah
disclos[ed] information that led to the capture of Ramzi bin al Shibh, another of the
planners of Sept. 11, who in turn disclosed information which  when combined with
what was learned from Abu Zubaydah  helped lead to the capture of KSM and other
senior terrorists, and the disruption of follow-on plots aimed at both Europe and the
U.S.​22​
Zubaydah also provided detailed information regarding Al Qaedas organizational
structure, key operatives, and modus operandi, and identified KSM as the mastermind behind
the 9/11 attacks.​23 Zubaydah also provided significant information on two operatives,
[including] Jose Padilla who planned to build and detonate a dirty bomb in the Washington, DC
area.24 Both KSM and Zubaydah also provided important information about al-Zarqawi and his
terrorist network in Iraq killing U.S. troops. Zarqawi was subsequently killed in a U.S. air raid in
June, 2006.
Finally, Hayden and Mukasey write, As late as 2006, fully half of the governments
knowledge about the structure and activities of Al Qaeda came from those interrogations.25 In
another article, former Bush Administration official Peter Wehner quotes George Tenet, CIA
Director under both Clinton and Bush, as saying, I know this [enhanced interrogation] program
has saved lives. I know weve disrupted plots. I know this program alone is worth more than​
21 Id.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

I don't monitor post counts, I put it in small bites so people can get specifics to the argument quickly...like the information GAINED THROUGH WATERBOARDING. (Highlighted words for emphasis, not intended to denote yelling).


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

You see Tez, not everyone thinks waterboarding is ineffective in getting information.  In fact, some very knowledgable people think it made all the difference in the world.  I take it that you are in the military or associated in some way.  If you can, ask some of your S.A.S. soldiers if they could withstand long term waterboarding.   I would expect that highly trained and motivated soldiers would be able to withstand it longer than a dirt bag terrorist.  Apparently, when soldiers are put through our S.E.R.E. program here, they all break.   And then they go on to continue training.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I don't monitor post counts, I put it in small bites so people can get specifics to the argument quickly...like the information GAINED THROUGH WATERBOARDING. (Highlighted words for emphasis, not intended to denote yelling).


 
You do know that the OP is about the police in Dubai using torture? I presume that is acceptable to you as I expect they just wanted to get that big bad American to talk and give them information they needed for their investigations.

You put things in small bites becuase you think people are too stupid to understand if you post all in one, how tactful of you.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

THe problem with waterboarding in S.E.R.E. training:

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/sere_training_and_torture/
However, that wasn&#8217;t the point, as psychologically the waterboard produced capitulation and compliance with instructor demands 100 percent of the time. During debriefings following training, students who had experienced the waterboard expressed extreme avoidance attitudes such as a likelihood to further comply with any demands made of them if brought near the waterboard again.​It&#8217;s worth noting that not only is this type of psychological damage strictly forbidden by law, the 100 percent capitulation rate...

From me, so much for waterboarding not being effective, they pre-select SERE students and these guys are often the special forces candidates, so it looks like there is disagreement to the effectiveness of waterboarding after all.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> You see Tez, not everyone thinks waterboarding is ineffective in getting information. In fact, some very knowledgable people think it made all the difference in the world. I take it that you are in the military or associated in some way. If you can, ask some of your S.A.S. soldiers if they could withstand long term waterboarding. I would expect that highly trained and motivated soldiers would be able to withstand it longer than a dirt bag terrorist. Apparently, when soldiers are put through our S.E.R.E. program here, they all break. And then they go on to continue training.


 

They break but do they tell the truth when they talk. Probably not.
It's no good breaking people if they either have no info or still give you the wrong information. The best way as I have said before, is to use good old fashioned intelligence gathering. 

The SAS are okay but the SBS are better and the RAF Regiment rocks!!


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

You may not understand that waterboarding is one part of the process.  They still have the guy and then they check the information against what they have from other sources and what they already know.  If he is lying or making stuff up, the fear of the waterboard is still there, that is why they start telling actual information.  And then our guys stop.  It is not like the nazis, or pol pot or the japanese or the inquisition.  Once they start talking and cooperating, the enhanced part stops.  KSM began giving lectures to our intelligence types on the command and control structure of al queda as well as about specific attacks.  Accordiing to the author of the book "Mastermind," a book about KSM and his history, his favorite food reward for working with us was a filet of fish sandwich from McDonalds.

the actual techniques are mentioned in the above memo.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

I have always admired the S.A.S., from the time I read about the commandos in world war two in Time Life books on World War 2.  They do rock.   The Special Boat Service, they are S.A.S. but like our SEALs right?


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I have always admired the S.A.S., from the time I read about the commandos in world war two in Time Life books on World War 2. They do rock. The Special Boat Service, they are S.A.S. but like our SEALs right?


 

No, they are better. They are Royal Marine Commandos, the best.

The SAS aren't commandos, they are troopers and come from various units of the army, they are squaddies. 

No, the RAF Regiment rocks. Look it up.


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## billc (May 14, 2011)

Not to get off topic but perhaps to get on one less antagonistic, the royal marine commados?  I always think of U.S. marines who are a unit of the navy and they do have a special forces component the Force Recon, and recon marines.  Are the royal marines regular troops with a special forces contingent called something else, or are they themselves special forces?  The R.A.F., royal air force?


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)

Someone here rode the short bus.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Not to get off topic but perhaps to get on one less antagonistic, the royal marine commados? I always think of U.S. marines who are a unit of the navy and they do have a special forces component the Force Recon, and recon marines. Are the royal marines regular troops with a special forces contingent called something else, or are they themselves special forces? The R.A.F., royal air force?


 

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/royalmarines/history-and-ethos/history-of-the-royal-marines/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Boat_Service

Although is says they accept other services no one has ever been taken in from anything other than the Royal Marines.

RAF is indeed the RAF, the RAF Regiment is their spec forces. .

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafregiment/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Defence_Police
The MDP's primary responsibility is to provide armed security and *counter terrorism,*


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## The Last Legionary (May 14, 2011)

I can haz neggie rep from anonypus? Yay.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 14, 2011)

*Thread locked for becoming a major mess.*


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