# Chuck Norris and TKD



## Brad Dunne

Just saw an interesting bit of information and looking for verification. The movie Missing In Action was being promo'ed when the announcer stated that Mr. Norris was the first westerner ever to be graded as an 8th Dan in TKD. I was under the assumption that he was a TSD practicioner not TKD. Anybody have any information on the subject?


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## Marginal

IIRC, he was granted an honorary 8th dan.


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## Jrush

This is from http://www.chucknorris.com/html/biog.html


> In 1997, Chuck achieved another milestone in his life by being the first man ever in the Western Hemisphere to be awarded an 8th degree Black Belt Grand Master recognition in the Tae Kwon Do system. This was a first in 4,500 years of tradition.


I belive that SaBum Nim is friends with Chuck Norris, at least all the pictures of the two that I have seen lead me to belive this. I will ask him more about it on Monday when I next have class.


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## Jim Tindell

Wtf?


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## MichiganTKD

Marginal said:
			
		

> IIRC, he was granted an honorary 8th dan.


How do you get an honorary 8th Dan? Either you are 8th Dan or you are not.


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## BrandiJo

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> How do you get an honorary 8th Dan? Either you are 8th Dan or you are not.


well i guess if you got enuff money you can be and do just about anything


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## Andy Cap

C'mon you are truly naiive nough to think that people don't get "Honorary" rank - are you?  At least Chuck Norris is an accomplished martial artist.  Heck, George Bush was given an honorary black belt.  In the end rank means squat, other than dictating who's the boss.


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## Makalakumu

Andy Cap said:
			
		

> Heck, George Bush was given an honorary black belt.



Whoa!  Whoa!  Whoa!  I've never heard that!  LOL!  What syle does the President hold rank in?  Does he have any actual training?


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## Andy Cap

Tae Kwon Do, I do not remember what organization or anything.  I just remember the ceremony I saw on TV.  I don't know that he has any training.


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## Miles

I know that Chuck Norris received a Kukkiwon dan certificate-I believe 6th dan.

 As far as 8th dan-the first Non-Korean to receive this rank from Kukkiwon is GM Edward Sell of Florida in 1991.  He received his 9th dan from Kukkiwon in 2001.

 Miles


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## MichiganTKD

Miles, out of curiosity, are you affiliated with Edward Sell's organization at all? I participated in a tournament years ago in Inkster organized by, I believe, a Sell-affiliated instructor and was just curious.
BTW, I was told to attend by my Instructor GM Tae Zee Park. Had a good time, but went right after work. I worked 3rd shift at the time. You can imagine how I felt toward the end.


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## Mithios

Mr. Norris, Has and 8th from I.T.F. and Kukkiwon. he also has other dan ranks certified with Kukkiwon. A acuaintance of mine that is with Mr. Norris's organization. Say's, the kukkiwon has given him certification like clockwork for many year's. 

 Mithios


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## Brad Dunne

"A acuaintance of mine that is with Mr. Norris's organization. Say's, the kukkiwon has given him certification like clockwork for many year's".

No reflection on Mr. Norris intended here, but to me that stinks. How can the Kukkiwon justify awarding ranking to a non TKD practicioner? I can imagine that TKD practicioners that can't afford or find someone to sign off on their application for promotion would be kind of ticked off big time.


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## JanneM

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> "A acuaintance of mine that is with Mr. Norris's organization. Say's, the kukkiwon has given him certification like clockwork for many year's".
> 
> No reflection on Mr. Norris intended here, but to me that stinks. How can the Kukkiwon justify awarding ranking to a non TKD practicioner? I can imagine that TKD practicioners that can't afford or find someone to sign off on their application for promotion would be kind of ticked off big time.


Please visit Kukkiwon homepage and find out who else has been avared with honorary dan grades by Kukkiwon.
Its all politics baby.


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## Miles

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Miles, out of curiosity, are you affiliated with Edward Sell's organization at all?


 No, though I have friends who are current and former students of GM Sell.

 Miles


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## Miles

Mithios said:
			
		

> Mr. Norris, Has and 8th from I.T.F. and Kukkiwon. he also has other dan ranks certified with Kukkiwon. A acuaintance of mine that is with Mr. Norris's organization. Say's, the kukkiwon has given him certification like clockwork for many year's.
> 
> Mithios


 Mithios, do you know if he promotes any of his students through the Kukkiwon?  BTW, it should not be surprising that anyone of Mr. Norris' stature was issued dan rank through either ITF or Kukkiwon.

 There could have been politics involved, but politics is not necessarily a bad thing.  It could be as simple as other TKD folks of his era were getting promoted and he had time-in-grade.  Sure looks good publicity-wise for all involved to ensure he gets a certificate.

 Miles


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## DuneViking

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Just saw an interesting bit of information and looking for verification. The movie Missing In Action was being promo'ed when the announcer stated that Mr. Norris was the first westerner ever to be graded as an 8th Dan in TKD. I was under the assumption that he was a TSD practicioner not TKD. Anybody have any information on the subject?


look up Edward B Sell, I think he claims to be the first, but that may be qualified as the first to be recognized by Koreans.


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## MichiganTKD

But it would be one thing if he spent his martial arts career practicing and promoting Kukkiwon/WTF Tae Kwon Do and was a leading voice of its techniques and philosophy.

It's quite another if the Kukkiwon awarded him (or any other celebrity) a Kukkiwon certificate for being "Chuck Norris". 
I think the Kukkiwon should have a rule: If you are actively certified through another TKD organization (ITF, ATA etc.) you cannot obtain Kukkiwon certification. You must pick one. ITF or Kukkiwon-what's it gonna be?


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## Spookey

Michigan,


We do all know that is not the case...I can hold Kukkiwon certification based on an ITF Dan Certificate (up to third dan), and I dont know a single Tae-Geuk hyung!

Most are fairly reciprical in that since. Also, Chuck Norris holds ranks from both the Kukkiwon and the ITF, however has promoted himself as a lifeling TSD practitioner and not he creator of his own art. 

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY


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## MichiganTKD

Nevertheless, it bugs me when an Instructor holds Kukkiwon certification and does nothing to promote Kukkiwon technique. And yes, they are numerous. I stand by my belief though. I think the Kukkiwon should refuse to certify you if you are active in another TKD organization.
What, if anything, has Chuck Norris ever done to promote the Kukkiwon?


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## DuneViking

Spookey said:
			
		

> Michigan,
> 
> 
> We do all know that is not the case...I can hold Kukkiwon certification based on an ITF Dan Certificate (up to third dan), and I dont know a single Tae-Geuk hyung!
> 
> Most are fairly reciprical in that since. Also, Chuck Norris holds ranks from both the Kukkiwon and the ITF, however has promoted himself as a lifeling TSD practitioner and not he creator of his own art.
> 
> TAEKWON!
> SpooKeY


FYI, 

Chuck Norris, Founder of Chun Kuk Do, www.ufaf.org


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## Spookey

Dune Viking,


Thanks for correcting my key error...(early morning post)!

It was intended to read "and now is creator of his own art"...DUH!

Thanks for the correction...

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY


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## Mithios

Miles,

 From what i have been able to find out, Mr. Norris does not issue Kukkiwon, or I.T.F. rank, and just conciders his political, and honorary.


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## terryl965

No Mr. Norris does not issue Kukkiwon certificates, he feels he is in no position to do that, there are more qualified people in the world. So I say he is a most upstanding gentleman in that respect.


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## Gemini

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> No reflection on Mr. Norris intended here, but to me that stinks. How can the Kukkiwon justify awarding ranking to a non TKD practicioner? I can imagine that TKD practicioners that can't afford or find someone to sign off on their application for promotion would be kind of ticked off big time.


 My previous SaBumNim told me he was a converted TSD Master. As TKD really started taking off, there weren't enough masters so TSD masters became TKD masters of the same rank. Pretty much the same thing. No?


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## Miles

Gemini said:
			
		

> My previous SaBumNim told me he was a converted TSD Master. As TKD really started taking off, there weren't enough masters so TSD masters became TKD masters of the same rank. Pretty much the same thing. No?


Yes, I have spoken with a Korean GM who was a highly ranked TSDin and he was "cross-ranked" by the Kukkiwon very early on-like 1974 or 1975.  His school does no TSD, just Kukki-TKD (and very well, BTW). 

Miles


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## AmericanTangSooDo

Brad Dunne said:


> Just saw an interesting bit of information and looking for verification. The movie Missing In Action was being promo'ed when the announcer stated that Mr. Norris was the first westerner ever to be graded as an 8th Dan in TKD. I was under the assumption that he was a TSD practicioner not TKD. Anybody have any information on the subject?



Chuck Norris was never a real black belt or student of Taekwondo. He holds black belts in Tang Soo Do, Judo, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He was simply awarded the that 8th dan but never actually earned it.

And no he was not the first westerner to be promoted to 8th dan in TKD. The first westerners promoted were Charles Sereff and Edward Sell who received that honor years before Norris.


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## Svart

Whats the go with all the thread rez's? Nearly every thread active atm is from years ago.


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## arnisador

Svart said:


> Whats the go with all the thread rez's? Nearly every thread active atm is from years ago.



What's wrong with that? There's some good stuff buried around here!


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## granfire

Pft, Chuck Norris invented TKD, as of all other Martial Arts, excep Jeet Kun Do...


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## jim777

granfire said:


> Pft, Chuck Norris invented TKD, as of all other Martial Arts, excep Jeet Kun Do...


 
Yes, and he did it while counting to infinity twice, and standing on no feet!


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## cali_tkdbruin

MichiganTKD said:


> How do you get an honorary 8th Dan? Either you are 8th Dan or you are not.


 
It's like in academia, people are granted honorary doctorate degrees all the time. Did these people actually do all of the hard work and earn the true, earned right and knowledge to be called, and have the title of doctor added to their names? No, not really really, but they still have that honorary title. They're still drs, or high BBs in this case, but as the word says, it just an honorary title that's all. It's really an award for the advancement they've done of a certain discipline or the body of work they've done.


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## Twin Fist

MichiganTKD said:


> How do you get an honorary 8th Dan? Either you are 8th Dan or you are not.



All 8th dans are honorary


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## Laurentkd

Twin Fist said:


> All 8th dans are honorary


 
What do you mean?


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## Miles

Twin Fist said:


> All 8th dans are honorary



That's a pretty sweeping statement.  I disagree.  I had the privilege of attending an 8th dan test.  It was not a cake walk.


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## Kwanjang

Miles said:


> No, though I have friends who are current and former students of GM Sell.
> 
> Miles


 
 I thought Chuck was Tang Soo Do 8th dan.

(Off topic)

I am a Student of GM Sell. He is recognized 9th Dan by both the WCDK and the Kukkiwon. He is a direct student of GM Uhm and Gm Park Hae Man. He took a physical test Sept. 10th, 2001 for his 9th dan (he was 61) at the Kukkiwon--a day before our national tragedy. This past week Gm Sell was summoned to Korea to help celebrate taekwondo day. The latest e-mail to all his senior Instructors says ther are meetings going on to help reform our art. It has been my expierience beeing his student for the pas 10 years he and his wife GM Brenda Sell 8th Dan, have exceeded my expectations. They are super great people. He is always there for me. In my opinion, a true Grandmaster in every sense of the word.


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## Twin Fist

Laurentkd said:


> What do you mean?




real simple.So simple, most people dont realize or have forgotten.

1. if you are young enough to do a physical test for 8th dan, something aint right to begin with. No one should be wearing an 8th Dan younger than mid to late 50's, and by then, you aint gonna be doing extensive physical testing.

2. testing for ranks higher than 1st or 2nd is a recent, and I mean within the last 40 years, idea. It is not an historical practice.

3. IMO, the Koreans had to come up with testing material for above 5th degree because they started letting people get Dan ranks too young, and too closely together.

4. looking at the whole spectrumof martial arts, those that use the standard 10 Dan ranks system, the near universial standard is that above 5th, promotions are not based on knowledge, but on teaching and contributions to the arts.

So when i say "all 8th dans are honorary" it is my opinion, but that opinion is based on 25 years in martial arts, in many different systems.


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## Laurentkd

Twin Fist said:


> real simple.So simple, most people dont realize or have forgotten.
> 
> 1. if you are young enough to do a physical test for 8th dan, something aint right to begin with. No one should be wearing an 8th Dan younger than mid to late 50's, and by then, you aint gonna be doing extensive physical testing.
> 
> 2. testing for ranks higher than 1st or 2nd is a recent, and I mean within the last 40 years, idea. It is not an historical practice.
> 
> 3. IMO, the Koreans had to come up with testing material for above 5th degree because they started letting people get Dan ranks too young, and too closely together.
> 
> *4. looking at the whole spectrumof martial arts, those that use the standard 10 Dan ranks system, the near universial standard is that above 5th, promotions are not based on knowledge, but on teaching and contributions to the arts.*
> 
> So when i say "all 8th dans are honorary" it is my opinion, but that opinion is based on 25 years in martial arts, in many different systems.


 
I thought you were thinking something along these lines, specifically #4.


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## jks9199

Twin Fist said:


> real simple.So simple, most people dont realize or have forgotten.
> 
> 1. if you are young enough to do a physical test for 8th dan, something aint right to begin with. No one should be wearing an 8th Dan younger than mid to late 50's, and by then, you aint gonna be doing extensive physical testing.


Depends on the style and ages involved.  In my style, if you got your first level black belt at 18 or 20... you could conceivable, honoring all the time-in-grade requirements, be testing for 8th level in your mid 30s or early 40s.  





> 2. testing for ranks higher than 1st or 2nd is a recent, and I mean within the last 40 years, idea. It is not an historical practice.
> 
> 3. IMO, the Koreans had to come up with testing material for above 5th degree because they started letting people get Dan ranks too young, and too closely together.


I'll have to trust your assessment on these points.





> 4. looking at the whole spectrumof martial arts, those that use the standard 10 Dan ranks system, the near universial standard is that above 5th, promotions are not based on knowledge, but on teaching and contributions to the arts.
> 
> So when i say "all 8th dans are honorary" it is my opinion, but that opinion is based on 25 years in martial arts, in many different systems.



I think that you overreach when you say that "all 8th dans are honorary" just because they may not be based on a physical testing scenario.  Is a person's service and dedication to teaching somehow invalid as criteria?  Can't they have learned -- and demonstrated -- improving skill in relating and teaching the art?  Isn't that a valid, and non-honorary, promotion?

"Honorary" promotion suggests that it's done to recognize some factor, and doesn't necessarily have any legitimate training or scholarship, like an honorary doctorate presented to some performer or politician.  I think those connotations are where the problem with "all ... are honorary."


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## arnisador

jks9199 said:


> Depends on the style and ages involved.  In my style, if you got your first level black belt at 18 or 20... you could conceivable, honoring all the time-in-grade requirements, be testing for 8th level in your mid 30s or early 40s.  I'll have to trust your assessment on these points.



Is it a 2 year wait between every grade, then?


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## jks9199

arnisador said:


> Is it a 2 year wait between every grade, then?


Well.... I just realized I read crookedly across the chart, and dropped 10 years of training out of the math.  (It breaks down to 3 years up until 6th, then 10 years in grade, for a total MINIMUM of 35 years {3+3+3+3+3+10+10}.) But the argument still holds.  Why couldn't someone in their 40s or early 50s do a physical test?


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## Miles

Kukkiwon has published promotion regulations and in order to test for 8th dan, one must have been a 7th dan for 8 years and be at least 44 years old.

There is a physical test.  As mentioned by Kwanjang, GM Edward Sell tested in Korea for his 9th dan.  I used to regularly get the Kukkiwon newsletter which showed how many people attempted, passed and FAILED high dan tests (i.e. 6th-9th dan) at Kukkiwon.

Now, does this mean GM Norris tested at Kukkiwon? I don't know.


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## Laurentkd

Miles said:


> Kukkiwon has published promotion regulations and in order to test for 8th dan, one must have been a 7th dan for 8 years and be at least 44 years old.
> 
> There is a physical test. As mentioned by Kwanjang, GM Edward Sell tested in Korea for his 9th dan. I used to regularly get the Kukkiwon newsletter which showed how many people attempted, passed and FAILED high dan tests (i.e. 6th-9th dan) at Kukkiwon.
> 
> Now, does this mean GM Norris tested at Kukkiwon? I don't know.


 
Is there still a Kukkiwon newsletter?


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## Miles

Laurentkd said:


> Is there still a Kukkiwon newsletter?


 
There is an online newsletter which can be found on the Kukkiwon website.  

The newsletter the Kukkiwon used to mail out was 1/2 English, 1/2 Korean.  After I posted the above message, I found the newsletter mentioning the 30th anniversary celebration and it had 6th dan passage rate for the year as 100 out 149 I believe (so about 67% passed...i.e. 33% failed).


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## YoungMan

Stating that ALL 8th Dan testing is honorary because of your notions of what makes you eligible for 8th Dan testing is mighty presumptous.
I was present at the testing of a 6th dan senior instructor testing for 7th Dan. Not in the room mind you, but about 30 feet away next door. He was recommended to test because of his contributions to our organization and Tae Kwon Do, but his testing was primarily physical. Nothing honorable about it. I watched him get ready, and he was absolutely nervous. Would he have been nervous for an honorary 8th Dan? I think not.
I guess if I spent 4-5 years studying 8 or 9 different styles that might add up to 25 years. I've been involved in one style for 25 years. Does that count?


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## Twin Fist

sure it does, it qualifies you to talk about your one art, since thats the only thing you know.

in my case it isnt. Yes, your knowledge of KKW TKD is much, much deeper than mine, but I would say that my knowledge of arts "overall" is deeper than yours. 

thats just opinion, and i might very well be wrong. 

I say 8th degrees are honorary, because in general, across the spectrum of martial arts as a whole, it isnt based on physical skill, or developement. Even if there is a physical test, the promotion wont be based on "they are getting better" like 1st or 2nd. It is based on how many BB's they produce.

And let me say this again.

I dont give a rats rump what the KKW does. It can go away for all I care, and I would be just as happy

All i can say about that if they have a phsical test for 9th degree friggin BB? well at least then they can justify what they charge........................


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## mango.man

jks9199 said:


> Depends on the style and ages involved.  In my style, if you got your first level black belt at 18 or 20... you could conceivable, honoring all the time-in-grade requirements, be testing for 8th level in your mid 30s or early 40s.  I'll have to trust your assessment on these points.



Since most of this discussion has been around KKW, per KKW rules, testing for 8th Dan means you must have been 7th Dan for 8 years and must be a minimum of 44 years old.

Basically, KKW has no published standard for the time or age it should take to reach 1st poom or dan.  I think though that if 12 is a good age to start TKD and it takes, on average 3 years to reach 1st dan in this scenario and you make every testing right on time and never fail, that is about the only way someone is going to be eligible to test for 8th dan at age 44.

Start TKD = age 12
1st dan = age 15
2nd dan = age 16
3rd dan = age 18
4th dan = age 21
5th dan = age 25
6th dan = age 30
7th dan = age 36
8th dan = age 44
9th dan = age 53

And outside of the time it takes to reach 1st dan, those are the bare minimum ages and times in rank that KKW regulates.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01#08


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## Daniel Sullivan

Personally, I see anything much over fourth degree as administrative degrees.  I mean no disrespect to any of you who have them.  I mean administrative degrees in the sense that they are geared towards those who are school owners or who wish to have a greater role in whatever federation they are a part of.

If all you want to do is run a school and teach students, you really don't need to have a ninth degree, though it does look mighty fine in your school literature.  

For KKW instructors, you need to be fourth dan to sign dan certs, which is what 99% of the students who come through the door are looking to earn (hopefully, rather than just receive in exchange for testing fees).

I certainly don't frown upon those who choose to test for higher degrees; I don't have any aspiriations beyond that of school owner, while others do.  For some, it is seen as a part of continued study in the art, and that is just fine.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist

The tradition here in the Allen Steen lineage has always been you have to be a 3rd to promote to 1st, a 4th to promote to 2nd, etc

2 dan rank seperation.

in addition, the time between ranks is the same as the rank you want to get to:

2nd dan=2 years after 1st
3rd dan= 3 years after 2nd
etc


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## Daniel Sullivan

Similar to our school, though we have to wait a number of years equal to our current rank; one year from first to second, two from second to third, three from third to fourth, and so on.

Just to bring this back to the OP, any degrees given to Chuck Norris hardly do him justice; Chuck Norris doesn't need a degree.  He is a degree in and of himself

Daniel


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## arnisador

YoungMan said:


> Stating that ALL 8th Dan testing is honorary because of your notions of what makes you eligible for 8th Dan testing is mighty presumptous.



In my experience the vast majority of martial arts organizations don't have physical tests (demos maybe, not tests) after 5th degree black belt. At that point, everyone's good--but some are more experienced and doing more to spread or otherwise advance the art.


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## arnisador

Celtic Tiger said:


> Personally, I see anything much over fourth degree as administrative degrees.  I mean no disrespect to any of you who have them.  I mean administrative degrees in the sense that they are geared towards those who are school owners or who wish to have a greater role in whatever federation they are a part of.



I largely agree. It's a rank structure. You need someone at the top who can promote people. He needs people below him who can do the routine promotions, and people to fill administrative positions in the org. chart. One hopes it's done on merit, but a good 7th degree black belt is good _for_ as well as _at_ the art.


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## YoungMan

It has been my experience that legitimate tests over 4th-5th Dan are largely based on your contributions to the art, not on your technique. Do judges want to see your form? Sure, because having good form says a lot about you. But at this stage they pretty much know what your technique looks like and how much power you have. That has already been established. That was established during your junior ranking black belt days. Therefore, it is not necessary to see your sparring or other skills because they already know what you can do. It's also why I've never seen a public test over 5th Dan. 

Still, I fail to see what Chuck Norris has done for Taekwondo, especially since he is not a Taekwondo student, to merit awarding him 8th Dan. Is the Kukkiwon that hard up for publicity? Let his instructor award him 8th Dan.


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## Twin Fist

it's the KKW

this is FAR from the craziest thing they have done.

And what did Chuck Norris do for TKD?

at a time when NO ONE was a korean stylist, he was, and he won NATIONAL titles, and told people he was a korean stylist. He used spinning kicks. When no one else did.

he made KOREAN arts palatable, when before they were not.

it could be said that without Chuck Norris, TKD would never have taken off in america the way it did.


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## mango.man

Twin Fist said:


> it's the KKW
> 
> this is FAR from the craziest thing they have done.
> 
> And what did Chuck Norris do for TKD?
> 
> at a time when NO ONE was a korean stylist, he was, and he won NATIONAL titles, and told people he was a korean stylist. He used spinning kicks. When no one else did.
> 
> he made KOREAN arts palatable, when before they were not.
> 
> it could be said that without Chuck Norris, TKD would never have taken off in america the way it did.


 
Hmmmm those facts seem to be missing from http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/

Perhaps you should submit them.


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## jim777

Twin Fist said:


> it's the KKW
> 
> this is FAR from the craziest thing they have done.
> 
> And what did Chuck Norris do for TKD?
> 
> at a time when NO ONE was a korean stylist, he was, and he won NATIONAL titles, and told people he was a korean stylist. He used spinning kicks. When no one else did.
> 
> he made KOREAN arts palatable, when before they were not.
> 
> it could be said that without Chuck Norris, TKD would never have taken off in america the way it did.


 
Have to agree with this; long before I started TKD or knew much of anything about Korean arts I simply assumed Chuck was doing TKD because he was doing 'something' Korean. Chuck _ was_ TKD to lots of folks I'm sure, so the reputation of the art was well represented by Chuck's ability. Chuck has to be the most famous martial artist to have studied a Korean art.


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## IcemanSK

Do we have some kind of proof that the KKW actually gave Norris an 8th Dan, or is this an academdic exercise?


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## mango.man

IcemanSK said:


> Do we have some kind of proof that the KKW actually gave Norris an 8th Dan, or is this an academdic exercise?


 
Well according to the KKW website:

*Name* CHUCK NORRIS
*Current Poom/Dan* 6 Dan
*Poom/Dan No.* 05000480
*Date of Issuance* 1976-11-22


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## IcemanSK

mango.man said:


> Well according to the KKW website:
> 
> *Name* CHUCK NORRIS
> *Current Poom/Dan* 6 Dan
> *Poom/Dan No.* 05000480
> *Date of Issuance* 1976-11-22


 

Ok, a 6th Dan issued nearly 30 years ago. Not an 8th Dan issued recently, as has been the point of contention by some here.

 Not sure why folks are upset about something that happened that long ago. Apparently, someone thought that was appropriate at the time. None of us were there, I assume.

Thanks for finding that, mango!


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## Daniel Sullivan

The only thing that I was able to find regarding the organization of issuance was this:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_Dear sir, 
I picked up my February 15-28 copy [Volume 3, Issue 4] of _Go-Go Magazine _and read with great interest the "Art of War" article. I found some items in the Taekwon-Do section that I would like to correct. [Webmaster's Note: The opinionated webmaster had removed the offending section before the article was posted to the website.] _
_The statistics quoted are for only one Taekwon-Do organization-- the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). The WTF is the body the controls Olympic Taekwondo. There is another, older, organization that is much different than the WTF. It is the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF). _
_The ITF was founded by General Choi Hong Hi. General Choi is credited with the creation of the name Taekwon-Do in 1955, while serving in the South Korean military. The ITF has over 40 million members worldwide (by its own count). _
_The National Governing Body for the ITF in the United States is the United States Taekwon-Do Federation (USTF) located in Broomfield, Colorado. The President of the USTF is Grand Master Charles E. Sereff. Grand Master Sereff is a 9th Degree Black Belt-- the first non-Oriental awarded that rank. In addition, the Secretary General of the USTF is Master Renee Sereff, 7th Degree Black Belt. Master Sereff was the first women to reach that very special rank. _
_Master Chuck Norris was awarded an honorary 8th Degree Black Belt by the ITF, not the WTF. General Choi did this to honor the contributions of Master Norris to the Martial Arts and for his anti-drug work. As you can see from above, Master Norris was not the first Westerner to receive an 8th Dan. Bob Wall and Bob Chaney also received 8th Dans with Master Norris. _
_By visiting the website www.itf-general-choi.com or www.itf-taekwondo.com, you will find that the Masters of the ITF come from all over the world. The majority are in their 50s or younger. _
_The ITF truly is a worldwide organization. __--Robert Martin __ITF/ USTF 4th Degree Black Belt President, North Jefferson Taekwon-Do Maestas Taekwon-Do 303-998-7545 _
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
It would appear, if this is correct, that it is an ITF rank, not KKW.  Here is a link to the site I found it on: http://www.gogomagazine.com/0305/editorsdesk.html

Norris bio on his official site simply states that he is an eighth dan in the taekwondo system, no mention of which organization.

http://www.chucknorris.com/html/biog.html

Daniel​


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

IcemanSK said:


> Ok, a 6th Dan issued nearly 30 years ago. Not an 8th Dan issued recently, as has been the point of contention by some here.
> 
> Not sure why folks are upset about something that happened that long ago. Apparently, someone thought that was appropriate at the time. None of us were there, I assume.
> 
> Thanks for finding that, mango!


It is likely that he holds a 6th dan KKW and an eighth dan in another org.  Heck, Elvis Presley was an eighth dan in Kenpo and may have been honored in other organizations as well.

Edit:  Rather than post another reply, I'll add here:

Given that such degrees are generally partly or entirely for promotion of the art, I see no problem with Mr. Norris holding the rank.  I know that he is TSD, but TSD did split, with part signing on with the KKW and becoming a part of taekwondo, so it isn't like there's no connection.  Hey, how many of our schools say, "karate" on the front door?  Anyhow, if the information in my last post is correct (the source is not an MA magazine, so I have no idea), then he holds grades in both the ITF and the KKW, and probably in several other organizations as well.

Daniel


----------



## Miles

Thank you folks for doing the research!


----------



## JohnAy

Twin Fist said:


> real simple.So simple, most people dont realize or have forgotten.
> 
> 1. if you are young enough to do a physical test for 8th dan, something aint right to begin with. No one should be wearing an 8th Dan younger than mid to late 50's, and by then, you aint gonna be doing extensive physical testing.
> .



 Really?  I take it to mean that anyone over the mid 50's must be on crutches or  in a wheel chair? lol


----------



## JohnAy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It is likely that he holds a 6th dan KKW and an eighth dan in another org.  Heck, Elvis Presley was an eighth dan in Kenpo and may have been honored in other organizations as well.
> 
> Edit:  Rather than post another reply, I'll add here:
> 
> Given that such degrees are generally partly or entirely for promotion of the art, I see no problem with Mr. Norris holding the rank.  I know that he is TSD, but TSD did split, with part signing on with the KKW and becoming a part of taekwondo, so it isn't like there's no connection.  Hey, how many of our schools say, "karate" on the front door?  Anyhow, if the information in my last post is correct (the source is not an MA magazine, so I have no idea), then he holds grades in both the ITF and the KKW, and probably in several other organizations as well.
> 
> Daniel



Before there was Tae Kwon Do there was Tang Soo Do.  Thre were “5” major kwons When Choi formed Tae Kwon Do . If you look back into the history of those Kwons you will find many different arts within those Schools which have been lost in what now is TKD. Some of the older schools are being revived. As Far as TSD origianlly was the Moo Duk Kwan. When Choi proposed TKD part of the Moo Du Kwan joined and part stayed with Hwan Kee. The part that joined Choi was the Moo Du Kwan Tae Kwan Do. The part that stayed with Kee was the Tang So Do Mu Duk Kwan

As far as Elvis.. Don't go there ... please lol
Elvis went to chuck for his first and chuck refused.  He went to parker and parker granted it 
Then Elvis to Kang Rhee and Kang was the first to award Elvis his 8th  for Elvis's supreme fighting ability ...LOL.. Any of you who have ever seen Elvis doing "kenpo" know why I am laughing.  Kang has changed his story over the years.  

Elvis was a wonderful human being.  He was kind, thoughtful, and unfortunately extremely troubled. An accomplished martial artist, um.. no.


----------



## Balrog

AmericanTangSooDo said:


> Chuck Norris was never a real black belt or student of Taekwondo.


Black Belt, no.  Student, quite definitely.

Master Norris's first martial arts instructor was the late Grand Master H. U. Lee, founder of the ATA.  At the time, Master Norris was in Korea in the military and was transferred before making 1st Degree.  He started training with another instructor who was TSD, not TKD, and stayed with it.  But his first training was in TKD with GM Lee.


----------



## Dirty Dog

JohnAy said:


> Before there was Tae Kwon Do there was Tang Soo Do.



Not quite. Before there was Taekwondo, there were a whole bunch of schools teaching a variety of styles, with major influences from karate (primarily shotokan), judo and (primarily northern) Chinese arts.



JohnAy said:


> Thre were “5” major kwons



There were 9 Kwans (not kwons - kwon means "to punch or strike with the hand") involved in the unification, and an unknown number that were not involved, either because they were not invited or because they were invited and chose not to be involved.



JohnAy said:


> When Choi formed Tae Kwon Do .



General CHOI Hong Hi did not "form" taekwondo. He was one of a large group of people involved in the unification movement. At most, he can be credited with suggesting the name taekwondo, but even that cannot be proven and is the subject of debate among those who really do "look back into the history" of taekwondo.



JohnAy said:


> If you look back into the history of those Kwons you will find many different arts within those Schools which have been lost in what now is TKD.



Really? Which ones were lost? There are still people around who trained in the various kwans prior to the unification, so I don't see how they could be "lost". My own kwanjangnim was a student of GM HWANG Kee prior to the unification and of GM LEE Kang-Ik after the split.



JohnAy said:


> Some of the older schools are being revived.



What "older" schools? All of the Kwans were first organized in the years immediately following the liberation of Korea from Japanese occupation at the end of WWII. I believe (though I'd have to check my references to be sure) that the vast majority were first organized in 1946-47.



JohnAy said:


> As Far as TSD origianlly was the Moo Duk Kwan. When Choi proposed TKD part of the Moo Du Kwan joined and part stayed with Hwan Kee. The part that joined Choi was the Moo Du Kwan Tae Kwan Do. The part that stayed with Kee was the Tang So Do Mu Duk Kwan



Again, not really correct. TSD was a generic name used by lots of different schools, and is merely the hangeul transliteration of the Chinese characters for "China Hand Way". 
The entire Moo Duk Kwan joined the unification movement, not just part. GM HWANG Kee left for political reasons. It is commonly believed that he left because he was not chosen to be the first President of the unified Kwans. When he left, about 2/3 of the Kwan stayed, with GM LEE Kang-Ik chosen as the Kwanjang. Not with General CHOI Hong Hi, but with the unification movement.
And Kee was the first name of GM HWANG. I really doubt that you knew him, let alone knew him well enough to use his first name like that.


----------



## TrueJim

Regarding the reference to the 5 Kwans, I suspect that was intended to refer to the _original_ 5 that were started during the period between World War II and the Korean War? (The 5 blue boxes in the following diagram.)







And then of course after the Korean War, a bunch of additional kwans were formed. From what I've read, by 1960 there were at least 40 kwans, but there four "major" ones that survived consolidation (the red boxes in the diagram below)...so "Nine Kwans" of note.

As I understand it, of the 40+ kwans in existence in 1960, many were consolidated by the KTA, so that by 1971 there were only 14 kwans left. Then in 1971 when the South Korean Ministry of Education started requiring permits to operate, many kwans shut-down or emigrated out of Korea.






The website of my best reference appears to be down at the moment: This website is currently unavailable.  Any corrections to the above are appreciated.

Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki


----------



## andyjeffries

Mithios said:


> Mr. Norris, Has and 8th from I.T.F. and Kukkiwon. he also has other dan ranks certified with Kukkiwon. A acuaintance of mine that is with Mr. Norris's organization. Say's, the kukkiwon has given him certification like clockwork for many year's.



I can confirm that he currently has a 6th Dan black belt from Kukkiwon. He's in their database under the name CHUCK NORRIS, DOB 10/3/1940, American and his Dan number is 05000480, issued on 22nd of November 1976. You can verify this yourself at http://kms.kukkiwon.or.kr/usr/check.do...

He don't believe he has a higher rank as an honorary Kukkiwon rank - I checked my own instructor who received a posthumous honorary 10th Dan, and KKW correctly lists him as 10th dan. This doesn't surprise me (that KKW lists the honorary rank too) because it'll have had to go through their promotion system to be printed/produced (and a recommendation had to go in for it as well).


----------



## andyjeffries

mango.man said:


> Well according to the KKW website:
> 
> *Name* CHUCK NORRIS
> *Current Poom/Dan* 6 Dan
> *Poom/Dan No.* 05000480
> *Date of Issuance* 1976-11-22



Sorry man, didn't see you'd already posted the same information. At least I added confirmation that an honorary rank would also show up there (yet doesn't)


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

andyjeffries said:


> Sorry man, didn't see you'd already posted the same information. At least I added confirmation that an honorary rank would also show up there (yet doesn't)[/QUOTE
> 
> Interesting..I don't see it for a Canadian politician who got a "black belt" on a visit to Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOOK: What The Heck Is Baird Doing?


----------



## dvcochran

andyjeffries said:


> I can confirm that he currently has a 6th Dan black belt from Kukkiwon. He's in their database under the name CHUCK NORRIS, DOB 10/3/1940, American and his Dan number is 05000480, issued on 22nd of November 1976. You can verify this yourself at http://kms.kukkiwon.or.kr/usr/check.do...
> 
> He don't believe he has a higher rank as an honorary Kukkiwon rank - I checked my own instructor who received a posthumous honorary 10th Dan, and KKW correctly lists him as 10th dan. This doesn't surprise me (that KKW lists the honorary rank too) because it'll have had to go through their promotion system to be printed/produced (and a recommendation had to go in for it as well).


Your post reminded me that I have not checked this site since my last testing. For grins and giggles:
DAVID COCHRAN    5 Dan    05902311    2019-08-21


----------



## dvcochran

TrueJim said:


> Regarding the reference to the 5 Kwans, I suspect that was intended to refer to the _original_ 5 that were started during the period between World War II and the Korean War? (The 5 blue boxes in the following diagram.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then of course after the Korean War, a bunch of additional kwans were formed. From what I've read, by 1960 there were at least 40 kwans, but there four "major" ones that survived consolidation (the red boxes in the diagram below)...so "Nine Kwans" of note.
> 
> As I understand it, of the 40+ kwans in existence in 1960, many were consolidated by the KTA, so that by 1971 there were only 14 kwans left. Then in 1971 when the South Korean Ministry of Education started requiring permits to operate, many kwans shut-down or emigrated out of Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The website of my best reference appears to be down at the moment: This website is currently unavailable.  Any corrections to the above are appreciated.
> 
> Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki


I have used this several times. Great reference.


----------



## andyjeffries

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Interesting..I don't see it for a Canadian politician who got a "black belt" on a visit to Korea.



Did he get a WT Dan certificate or Kukkiwon. For some reason WT was issuing their own honorary Dan certificates for a while.


----------



## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> Did he get a WT Dan certificate or Kukkiwon. For some reason WT was issuing their own honorary Dan certificates for a while.



Which is amusing, given that they don't issue actual Dan certificates.


----------



## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> Which is amusing, given that they don't issue actual Dan certificates.



There's no "Amen brother" reaction, but you'd have got that if there was...

I think they saw sense and ones in the past few years at least have been jointly issued with Kukkiwon. I saw a photo of one of the plaques online and it had both logos.


----------



## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> There's no "Amen brother" reaction, but you'd have got that if there was...
> 
> I think they saw sense and ones in the past few years at least have been jointly issued with Kukkiwon. I saw a photo of one of the plaques online and it had both logos.



I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with them giving out honorary Dan ranks. It's a bit silly, but the whole concept of honorary rank strikes me as a bit silly.
I've only got one piece of paper from WT (it was WTF then), but it's one of those 'thanks for all you've done for TKD' things, not rank. I don't think it has a KKW logo on it, but I honestly don't remember for sure. I'll have to look when I get home.


----------



## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with them giving out honorary Dan ranks. It's a bit silly, but the whole concept of honorary rank strikes me as a bit silly.



I'm not a fan, as they're a pure sports body. I'd rather they issued "Honorary World Taekwondo Champion" certificates ;-)



Dirty Dog said:


> I've only got one piece of paper from WT (it was WTF then), but it's one of those 'thanks for all you've done for TKD' things, not rank. I don't think it has a KKW logo on it, but I honestly don't remember for sure. I'll have to look when I get home.



Yeah, both bodies issue commendations. I've only got a Kukkiwon one, but that works perfectly for me


----------



## dvcochran

Dirty Dog said:


> Which is amusing, given that they don't issue actual Dan certificates.


I would have to check but none of my WT(F) documents/certificates have anything to do with rank. They are for competitions/levels and tourney contributions.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

andyjeffries said:


> Did he get a WT Dan certificate or Kukkiwon. For some reason WT was issuing their own honorary Dan certificates for a while.



On further review, I got one key fact wrong - the Canadian politician got his honorary BB (7th dan) in Ottawa (not Korea), whilst a Korean politician was visiting.  

It seems it was done purely by a local GM, so I guess that explains why I don't see it online.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Dirty Dog said:


> I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with them giving out honorary Dan ranks. It's a bit silly, but the whole concept of honorary rank strikes me as a bit silly.
> I've only got one piece of paper from WT (it was WTF then), but it's one of those 'thanks for all you've done for TKD' things, not rank. I don't think it has a KKW logo on it, but I honestly don't remember for sure. I'll have to look when I get home.



I think if the "honorary" BB were given to someone skilled who never officially studied the art, that would make sense.


----------



## Dirty Dog

dvcochran said:


> I would have to check but none of my WT(F) documents/certificates have anything to do with rank. They are for competitions/levels and tourney contributions.



Well that makes perfect sense. Because WT isn't an art. It's a sports governing body.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think if the "honorary" BB were given to someone skilled who never officially studied the art, that would make sense.



If you say so, but to me... not so much. They don't know the art. I feel the same way about honorary doctorates and such. If it's not earned, it's silly. Just give them a Certificate of Appreciation or some such.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Dirty Dog said:


> If you say so, but to me... not so much. They don't know the art. I feel the same way about honorary doctorates and such. If it's not earned, it's silly. Just give them a Certificate of Appreciation or some such.



For the sake of brevity, I deleted part of my initial comment before posting. 

If Harvard Business School gave Bill Gates an honorary MBA, I'd be hard pressed to disagree. Similarly, giving Chuck Norris an honorary BB in TKD, in the alternate scenario that he never tested for it, would seem perfectly fine to me.


----------



## _Simon_

He's also an avid proponent of the Total Gym (commercial came on this morning)


----------



## Equilibrum32

Brad Dunne said:


> "A acuaintance of mine that is with Mr. Norris's organization. Say's, the kukkiwon has given him certification like clockwork for many year's".
> 
> No reflection on Mr. Norris intended here, but to me that stinks. How can the Kukkiwon justify awarding ranking to a non TKD practicioner? I can imagine that TKD practicioners that can't afford or find someone to sign off on their application for promotion would be kind of ticked off big time.



He IS a TKD practitioner.  Is it so hard to google? "It was in the Air Force, while stationed in Korea, that *Chuck* was introduced to *martial arts*. In a statement from his publicist to 35th Air Defense Artillery Public Affairs, *Chuck Norris *confirmed that Grand Master Mun, the tireless Tae Kwon Do *instructor* at the Osan Gym, was one of his *teachers* many years ago"

Chuck also considered himself a student of both General Choi of ITF and Jhoon Rhee.


----------



## dvcochran

Equilibrum32 said:


> He IS a TKD practitioner.  Is it so hard to google? "It was in the Air Force, while stationed in Korea, that *Chuck* was introduced to *martial arts*. In a statement from his publicist to 35th Air Defense Artillery Public Affairs, *Chuck Norris *confirmed that Grand Master Mun, the tireless Tae Kwon Do *instructor* at the Osan Gym, was one of his *teachers* many years ago"
> 
> Chuck also considered himself a student of both General Choi of ITF and Jhoon Rhee.


While Norris has practiced and is belted in TKD and TSD he started his own style, Chun Kuk Do. 
Kukkiwon has regularly awarded rank to higher ranking people of others styles if the conditions warrant it.


----------



## Balrog

AmericanTangSooDo said:


> Chuck Norris was never a real black belt or student of Taekwondo.


I will disagree with that.  His first instructor was the late GM Haeng Ung Lee, who founded the ATA.  He has acknowledged that many times.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Balrog said:


> I will disagree with that.  His first instructor was the late GM Haeng Ung Lee, who founded the ATA.  He has acknowledged that many times.


Was HU Lee teaching TKD or TSD in Korea?


----------



## Balrog

Earl Weiss said:


> Was HU Lee teaching TKD or TSD in Korea?


Taekwondo.  He learned the forms from Gen. Choi.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Balrog said:


> Taekwondo.  He learned the forms from Gen. Choi.


Sir, Please check on time line. GM Lee was a Chung Do Kwan Product.   (Which was TSD)   I believe he adopeted the Chang Hon patterns for a time after he came to the USA  similar to Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho.


----------



## Balrog

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, Please check on time line. GM Lee was a Chung Do Kwan Product.   (Which was TSD)   I believe he adopeted the Chang Hon patterns for a time after he came to the USA  similar to Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho.


My timeline is correct.  GM Lee learned the forms from Gen. Choi.  His handwritten notes are on display in the ATA museum.  He taught the forms until 1983, when he started developing his own style (Songahm) and teaching the new forms.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Balrog said:


> My timeline is correct.  GM Lee learned the forms from Gen. Choi.  His handwritten notes are on display in the ATA museum.  He taught the forms until 1983, when he started developing his own style (Songahm) and teaching the new forms.


Sir, I am aware he learned the forms from General Choi and was part of the ITF for a time. I believe prior to learning the forms  (Like Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho)   he was a Chung Do Kwan student.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Balrog said:


> My timeline is correct.  GM Lee learned the forms from Gen. Choi.  His handwritten notes are on display in the ATA museum.  He taught the forms until 1983, when he started developing his own style (Songahm) and teaching the new forms.


Here is a link referencing GM HU Lee's   CDK origins Taekwondo Pioneers: Haeng Ung Lee | Specialty Colombian Coffee News
when his progeny perform Chang Hon forms the CDK "Flavor" is apparent.


----------



## Balrog

Earl Weiss said:


> Here is a link referencing GM HU Lee's   CDK origins Taekwondo Pioneers: Haeng Ung Lee | Specialty Colombian Coffee News
> when his progeny perform Chang Hon forms the CDK "Flavor" is apparent.


Okay.  Thanks for documenting that what I said was correct.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Balrog said:


> Okay.  Thanks for documenting that what I said was correct.


Sir, Apparently we are not communicating. My question and point was that in Korea HU Lee was a CDK student and that is where Chuck Norris trained with him.  The CDK was doing TSD not TKD.   As per the linked information.  It was not until HU Lee was in Omaha that he met and learned from General Choi learning those forms and like so many other CDK products switched to TKD.   Or are you claiming  that TSD and TKD are one and the same?


----------



## Earl Weiss

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, Apparently we are not communicating. My question and point was that in Korea HU Lee was a CDK student and that is where Chuck Norris trained with him.  The CDK was doing TSD not TKD.   As per the linked information.  It was not until HU Lee was in Omaha that he met and learned from General Choi learning those forms and like so many other CDK products switched to TKD.   Or are you claiming  that TSD and TKD are one and the same?


Also of interest may be that in Chuck Norris' first book he states that what e ;earned was TSD. In a later book he refers to it as TKD.


----------



## isshinryuronin

Earl Weiss said:


> Also of interest may be that in Chuck Norris' first book he states that what e ;earned was TSD. In a later book he refers to it as TKD.


I don't follow Korean karate, but have a couple old personal anecdotes.  I heard Chuck Norris (and others) refer to his style as TSD in the years surrounding 1970.  Also in this time frame was a former Korean champion and teacher I was acquainted with (Young Ik Suh) who called his art TKD.

These two men had VERY different fighting styles - Norris' was fast, short combos, Suh's was more rangy, powerful kicks (although Norris, unlike Suh, was an _American_ _open_ tournament competitor, so this may have had some influence.  But their forms reflected this difference as well.)  It was common belief (at least amongst us non-Korean stylists) that TSD and TKD were two distinct styles.

Norris' 2nd book you referred to may reflect (just conjecture on my part) the fact that TKD had become more firmly established and was much better known to the public than TSD, so the terminology may have been "adjusted" to take advantage of this popularity.

As I said, I'm no Korean MA authority by any stretch, but I was on the scene during those exciting years and my observations may provide some interesting perspective.


----------



## Earl Weiss

isshinryuronin said:


> Norris' 2nd book you referred to may reflect (just conjecture on my part) the fact that TKD had become more firmly established and was much better known to the public than TSD, so the terminology may have been "adjusted" to take advantage of this popularity.


My conjecture as well.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Also of interest may be that in Chuck Norris' first book he states that what e ;earned was TSD. In a later book he refers to it as TKD.



Chuck Norris is of the opinion that Tang Soo Do is a form of TaeKwonDo, as shared by Pat Johnson, his partner in Korean Karate schools.

You can hear Pat name Tang Soo Do as a form of TaeKwonDo in the intro here.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Or are you claiming  that TSD and TKD are one and the same?



Chuck is

2:18: "It was called Tang Soo Do, now it's called TaeKwonDo"






You can't use the argument that it's not TKD due to different patterns, since many TKD rebranded places did not to switch to TKD forms even when General Choi had created his Chang Hon forms. So Chucky is well within his rights to call Tang Soo Do a form of TaeKwonDo.

The free sparring of Tang Soo Do is essentially the same as ITF.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, Apparently we are not communicating. My question and point was that in Korea HU Lee was a CDK student and that is where Chuck Norris trained with him.  The CDK was doing TSD not TKD.   As per the linked information.  It was not until HU Lee was in Omaha that he met and learned from General Choi learning those forms and like so many other CDK products switched to TKD.   Or are you claiming  that TSD and TKD are one and the same?



Not sure what your point is here.... There is no TKD black belt back then who is not traced back to either Karate/Shotokan or Tang So Do, including General Choi who did Shotokan in Japan...

You seem to make a bigger deal out of labels and katas more than Chuck is..


----------



## InfiniteLoop

isshinryuronin said:


> It was common belief (at least amongst us non-Korean stylists) that TSD and TKD were two distinct styles.



I am korean stylist and that is not shared by me. TaeKwonDo was a name change to Tang Soo Do schools, with replaced katas.

These techniques are 99% identical to the ITF TaeKwonDo branch, with some very, very minor exception (crescent kick with leg straight rather than bent).

If you want to distingush arts from each other based on an innoccious crescent kick difference, be my guest..


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Balrog said:


> He learned the forms from Gen. Choi.



He trained under Choi for only 3 days... source: 05:04


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Not sure what your point is here.... There is no TKD black belt back then who is not traced back to either Karate/Shotokan or Tang So Do, including General Choi who did Shotokan in Japan...
> 
> You seem to make a bigger deal out of labels and katas more than Chuck is..


My point is if you call a tale a leg then want to know how many legs a dog has the answer is still "4". Just because you call a tale a leg doesn't make it so.   Many TSD practitioners rejected the name TKD.   When the popularity / marketability became to hard to resist they  co opted the name.   Now, I  will concede it is a matter of perspective.   For some anyone kicking and punching with links to some Korean system can call what they do TKD. For others the name reflects a single system that did not exist prior to 1955 or so.   I think to call certain Korean striking arts TKD may in fact be an insult o the founder of the system who rejected the name.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> My point is if you call a tale a leg then want to know how many legs a dog has the answer is still "4". Just because you call a tale a leg doesn't make it so.   Many TSD practitioners rejected the name TKD.   When the popularity / marketability became to hard to resist they  co opted the name.   Now, I  will concede it is a matter of perspective.   For some anyone kicking and punching with links to some Korean system can call what they do TKD. For others the name reflects a single system that did not exist prior to 1955 or so.   I think to call certain Korean striking arts TKD may in fact be an insult o the founder of the system who rejected the name.


For someone like Chuck Norris who primarily kicks and punches, and grabs,  distinguishing between TSD and TKD makes little sense. If he was a forms competitor it would be another story. 

If the founder thought it was an insult, why didn't all TSD schools uniformly reject the name change?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Here in the first minutes of the interview Chuck calls his training in Korea TaeKwonDo as well and claims that the Koreans owe him for popularizing it


----------



## isshinryuronin

You are in error factually and in your hearing/interpretation.



InfiniteLoop said:


> 2:18: "It was called Tang Soo Do, now it's called TaeKwonDo"


Of course Chuck was addressing a largely uninformed audience as well as David Letterman who are looking for surface entertainment and not MA minutia.  TKD was a better known term so the audience had something to relate to regarding Korean MA.  


InfiniteLoop said:


> If he was a forms competitor it would be another story.


Chuck WAS a forms competitor and a very good one.  I witnessed him winning several trophies in forms.


InfiniteLoop said:


> Here in the first minutes of the interview Chuck calls his training in Korea TaeKwonDo as well and claims that the Koreans owe him for popularizing it


He actually said "Korean system" was popularized by his fighting success.  This is before his movies and while he ID'd his system as TSD.  His school was just around the corner from mine and what he did there was TSD.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

isshinryuronin said:


> His school was just around the corner from mine and what he did there was TSD..



You don't seem to understand the historical reason for the birth of TaeKwonDo.. *TaeKwonDo was a name change to Korean Karate schools. *Tang Soo Do representation only survived because not all of the TSD lineages agreed to the switch.

TaeKwonDo did not have the original 24 Korean patterns completed when the name change came about.

The schools in the 50s were still stuck with TSD curriculum, at most containing a couple of new Korean patterns.  Many rebranded TKD chains refused to incorporate new Korean patterns that were available

So, If one trained in a TKD or TSD school in the 50s would have been largely indistinguishable.


----------



## dvcochran

isshinryuronin said:


> Of course Chuck was addressing a largely uninformed audience as well as David Letterman who are looking for surface entertainment and not MA minutia. TKD was a better known term so the audience had something to relate to regarding Korean MA.


I can relate. Although purely a TKD school we named our first Midstate Karate Studio because we were convinced no one would know what Tae Kwon Do was.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> I can relate. Although purely a TKD school we named our first Midstate Karate Studio because we were convinced no one would know what Tae Kwon Do was.



Did the belt certificates read Karate too?


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> Did the belt certificates read Karate too?


No, we were/are MKD TKD and the certificates read as such.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> No, we were/are MKD TKD and the certificates read as such.



What time period was this?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

30:15 is quite pertinent to the discussion, although General Chois original patterns were completed in 63, not the 70s as the presenter claims...  the very first pattern was introduced in 1959 if I recall correctly.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

2:31 

Hmm...


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> 2:31
> 
> Hmm...


Is there a point to any of your posts?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> Is there a point to any of your posts?



He does not say: "I first did Tang Soo Do and then switched to TaeKwonDo" .....

 It is not an uncommon view that Tang Soo Do is TaeKwonDo.


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> He does not say: "I first did Tang Soo Do and then switched to TaeKwonDo" .....
> 
> It is not an uncommon view that Tang Soo Do is TaeKwonDo.


----------



## dvcochran

In the states I would say that is uncommon.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Chuck Norris is of the opinion that Tang Soo Do is a form of TaeKwonDo, as shared by Pat Johnson, his partner in Korean Karate schools.
> 
> You can hear Pat name Tang Soo Do as a form of TaeKwonDo in the intro here.


What is your source of this alleged opinion by Chuck Norris. ?

What is the time stamp where Pat Johnson says that?    At about 10 seconds that is not what he says.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Chuck is
> 
> So Chucky is well within his rights to call Tang Soo Do a form of TaeKwonDo.
> 
> The free sparring of Tang Soo Do is essentially the same as ITF.


Yep, free country, you can call stuff whatever you want. 

Do you have a source for your claim that TSD sparring is the same as ITF sparring?   HAs it always been so?


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> If the founder thought it was an insult, why didn't all TSD schools uniformly reject the name change?


For  the same reason TKD was initially referred to as "Korean Karate"  Though initially rejected by many  Marketing benefits outweighed their distaste particularly when government influence and money was huge factor.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> So, If one trained in a TKD or TSD school in the 50s would have been largely indistinguishable.


Your premise is   faulty.   First and foremost the name TK-D   was not adopted until  1955 and then it was developed in the 29th infantry division of course populated by TSD practitioners like Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo.    So., exactly how many TKD Schools (Not TSD) do you think there were in the 1950's?

What schools were teaching TKD outside Korea in the 1950's ? Where and by whom?  Have you spoken to any of these TSD or TKD instructors from the 1950's or is tis simply something you have concluded from internet snippets?


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> 2:31
> 
> Hmm...


Jhoon Rhee was a CDK product. His history was well known.   He had a TSD school in Texas and General Choi   was at a Military course in Texas and visited him, taught him patterns and persuaded  him to switch.


----------



## Dirty Dog

InfiniteLoop said:


> If the founder thought it was an insult, why didn't all TSD schools uniformly reject the name change?


When was the last time you saw anything unanimously agreed upon?
The name TKD was chosen and accepted by the schools who were part of the unification movement. Then GM Hwang Kee left the movement with about 1/3 of the MooDukKwan and changed the name to Tang Soo Do. He then changed the name to Soo Bahk Do. So the only TSD schools left are that tiny splinter that left the unification movement and then also split from their founder.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Your premise is   faulty.   First and foremost the name TK-D   was not adopted until  1955 and then it was developed in the 29th infantry division of course populated by TSD practitioners like Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo.    So., exactly how many TKD Schools (Not TSD) do you think there were in the 1950's?
> 
> What schools were teaching TKD outside Korea in the 1950's ? Where and by whom?  Have you spoken to any of these TSD or TKD instructors from the 1950's or is tis simply something you have concluded from internet snippets?


I never claimed that TKD schools existed outside of Korea in the 50s, but they did exist. Chuck learned TSD in Korea, but whether it was a TKD or TSD labelled school in 1958 would have been irrelevant. The new Korean Chang Hon patterns were still in development, and only a handful existed, without any chronological order to them in terms of belts.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Jhoon Rhee was a CDK product. His history was well known.   He had a TSD school in Texas and General Choi   was at a Military course in Texas and visited him, taught him patterns and persuaded  him to switch.


My point is that he, like Chuck Norris,  considers Tang Soo Do to be TaeKwonDo. He did not consider pattern switches big enough to label it a new art.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Dirty Dog said:


> When was the last time you saw anything unanimously agreed upon?
> The name TKD was chosen and accepted by the schools who were part of the unification movement. Then GM Hwang Kee left the movement with about 1/3 of the MooDukKwan and changed the name to Tang Soo Do. He then changed the name to Soo Bahk Do. So the only TSD schools left are that tiny splinter that left the unification movement and then also split from their founder.



It doesn't matter to me whether they agree to the name unification or not.

Tang Soo Do schools have virtually the same sparring as ITF, the same techniques and technical delivery, similiar emphasis, shared lineage, etc.

Yes they use different patterns but not all people practise patterns at all, yet still do TKD.  So one can't define an art based on patterns. 

Which is why Chuck Norris isn't wrong to state that he is a TaeKwonDo product.

For instance, I don't practise any patterns since 3 years back. Arguing whether I'm doing TSD or TaeKwonDo at this point would be meaningless seminatics...


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> I never claimed that TKD schools existed outside of Korea in the 50s, but they did exist.


What you said was " So, If one trained in a TKD or TSD school in the 50s would have been largely indistinguishable."     So, outside of the Oh Do Kwan, who was teaching TKD (not TSD) in Korea from 1955-1959.   Who was teaching TKD (Not TSD)  outside of Korea and where?    This premise presents 2 obstacles.  1. Were there any TKD schools even existing to distinguish; and   2. If any did exist were they recent converts from TSD who were only beginning to make adjustments.   Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Tang Soo Do schools have virtually the same sparring as ITF, the same techniques and technical delivery, similiar emphasis, shared lineage, etc.


What do you base this on?  when the school I attended was still affiliated with a CDK product who changed to TKD we were doing stop point sparring. Not ITF format since  around 1974.   Maybe TSD has changed.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Arguing whether I'm doing TSD or TaeKwonDo at this point would be meaningless seminatics...


Are you related to a former poster who went by the name Acronym?


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> So one can't define an art based on patterns.


Why? Because you said so?   What other technical parameters do you require?


----------



## Dirty Dog

InfiniteLoop said:


> It doesn't matter to me whether they agree to the name unification or not.


Sure. I get it. If it doesn't agree with your view, it doesn't matter.


InfiniteLoop said:


> Tang Soo Do schools have virtually the same sparring as ITF, the same techniques and technical delivery, similiar emphasis, shared lineage, etc.


Not really. Just on the "shared lineage" point, for example. GM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan and taught TSD. And what remains of TSD is all from that lineage. The ITF was founded by Gen Choi, who was never a part of the MDK or a student of GM Hwang Kee. Completely different lineage.


InfiniteLoop said:


> Yes they use different patterns but not all people practise patterns at all, yet still do TKD.  So one can't define an art based on patterns.


I think we can let an art define itself. I'm quite certain they can do so without your help.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> What do you base this on?  when the school I attended was still affiliated with a CDK product who changed to TKD we were doing stop point sparring. Not ITF format since  around 1974.   Maybe TSD has changed.


I was talking about *now* regarding sparring.

Btw,  speaking of sparring, your claim that the WTFs decision to dispatch face punching had "no basis in history" seems to be incorrect.

 Chang Kuen states implicitly that no face punching was part of the original national Korean Karate Championships

_I also won the first Korean Tae Soo Do (Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, and Kong Soo Do) heavyweight championship in the 3rd, 4th and 5th degree division in 1963. I was the smallest in the division, but quite fast so the bigger opponents found it hard to hit me. *The rules used were similar to those used by the WTF today* but we used more hand techniques_




Earl Weiss said:


> Why?



Because it leads to reductio ad absurdum if you do. I am not practising anything, if patterns define an art.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. Just on the "shared lineage" point, for example. GM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan and taught TSD. And what remains of TSD is all from that lineage. The ITF was founded by Gen Choi, who was never a part of the MDK or a student of GM Hwang Kee. Completely different lineage.



General Chois personal lineage is irrelevant since the instructors he recruited for his branch were primarily from Tang Soo Do, and it was his recruits that represented the art technique-wise, not General Choi.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Dirty Dog said:


> I think we can let an art define itself. I'm quite certain they can do so without your help.



An art without practitioners is an abstraction, not a real "thing".


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Here is modern day TSD sparring/sport. Looks identical to ITF. maybe they copied the ITF format later on. Tang Soo Do obviously didn't use protection originally, but neither did Chois branch.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Do you have a source for your claim that TSD sparring is the same as ITF sparring?   HAs it always been so?



A source has been posted. I don't now when they made the switch to continuos sparring and not all branches followed suit. My guess is that it came later.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> For instance, I don't practise any patterns since 3 years back. Arguing whether I'm doing TSD or TaeKwonDo at this point would be meaningless seminatics...


Then you are doing neither.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Here is modern day TSD sparring/sport. Looks identical to ITF. maybe they copied the ITF format later on. Tang Soo Do obviously didn't use protection originally, but neither did Chois branch.


I'm guessing you didn't notice the ITF uniforms.   Speaks volume about your conclusions and the sources from which the come.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> I'm guessing you didn't notice the ITF uniforms.   Speaks volume about your conclusions and the sources from which the come.



I'm guessing you didn't notice the word Tang Soo Do *Open* Championship, meaning TaeKwonDo practitioners were allowed to compete.


Earl Weiss said:


> Then you are doing neither.


We had a guy join ITF who came from a TaeKwonDo school in Serbia,  
headed by an ITF instructor who opened his own place and ditched  patterns practise.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

What If I make up my own forms like ATA, Jhoon Rhee, etc and practise those. Am I suddenly doing TaeKwonDo again then? 

Or do you not consider those places to be training TaeKwonDo?


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> I was talking about *now* regarding sparring.
> 
> Btw,  speaking of sparring, your claim that the WTFs decision to dispatch face punching had "no basis in history" seems to be incorrect.


I never said that. Perhaps someone else. did.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Because it leads to reductio ad absurdum if you do. I am not practising anything, if patterns define an art.


If you are kicking and punching without patterns the you are not practicing any art, unless it's Loopy Do.  If you ad your own patterns, then for certain it's Loopy Do.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> What If I make up my own forms like ATA, Jhoon Rhee, etc and practise those. Am I suddenly doing TaeKwonDo again then?
> 
> Or do you not consider those places to be training TaeKwonDo?


I don't consider it to be TK-D.    They can adopt whatever moniker they like  as well as responsibility for any resulting confusion.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> I'm guessing you didn't notice the word Tang Soo Do *Open* Championship, meaning TaeKwonDo practitioners were allowed to compete.


Not only did I notice, I guess you have no idea that whatever rule set they decided to adopt for "Open" Championships has no bearing on what might be considered any type of sparring and therefore no basis for any claim of similarity between "ITF"  sparring and "TSD Sparring" or any other type of sparring for that matter.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> I'm guessing you didn't notice the word Tang Soo Do *Open* Championship, meaning TaeKwonDo practitioners were allowed to compete.
> 
> We had a guy join ITF who came from a TaeKwonDo school in Serbia,
> headed by an ITF instructor who opened his own place and ditched  patterns practise.


Is there a point to that anecdote? 


Again- are you related to Acronym?


----------



## dvcochran

Earl Weiss said:


> Is there a point to that anecdote?
> 
> 
> Again- are you related to Acronym?


One and the same I imagine.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Not only did I notice, I guess you have no idea that whatever rule set they decided to adopt for "Open" Championships has no bearing on what might be considered any type of sparring and therefore no basis for any claim of similarity between "ITF"  sparring and "TSD Sparring" or any other type of sparring for that matter.





Earl Weiss said:


> I don't consider it to be TK-D.    They can adopt whatever moniker they like  as well as responsibility for any resulting confusion.



Open or not, It was a national championship in Tang Soo Do. What you are engaging in right now is called ad hoc.

Well, you can't blame me for any confusion since I don't invent patterns out of the blue, like the aforementioned groups. I consider it a greater "betrayal" to replace patterns compared to not doing them anymore.

I can furthermore point to why I'm doing TKD over any other system, although the differences from Kung Fu and Karate can be subtle at times and not necessarily fundamental (some practitioners in each art will always be outliers and do it their own way).

And yes, I am Acronym.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Open or not, It was a national championship in Tang Soo Do. What you are engaging in right now is called ad hoc.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I am Acronym.


No, what I am engaging in now is correcting your misunderstanding.   The video caption is "Polish Open..."   not any claim of a TSD national championship for whatever that might have been worth to try and support your claim of sparring similarities.  It was also "Stop Point" which ITF has not been for almost 50 years.


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> I am korean stylist and that is not shared by me. TaeKwonDo was a name change to Tang Soo Do schools, with replaced katas.
> 
> These techniques are 99% identical to the ITF TaeKwonDo branch, with some very, very minor exception (crescent kick with leg straight rather than bent).
> 
> If you want to distingush arts from each other based on an innoccious crescent kick difference, be my guest..


I've had a long held opinion that ITF Taekwon-do is closer to Karate than Kukki-Taekwondo is, this opinion and the video reinforces that opinion. I know ITF stylists tend to disagree, but it always feels to me like if you take Sine-wave out and draw a scale from Shotokan to Kukkiwon, ITF is much closer to the Shotokan end than the Kukkiwon end (or past it).


----------



## andyjeffries

dvcochran said:


> I can relate. Although purely a TKD school we named our first Midstate Karate Studio because we were convinced no one would know what Tae Kwon Do was.


Out of interest have you renamed that school now as Taekwondo has become a much more widely known term? Or if it's closed down and new ones opened, did you continue calling them Karate or switch to using Taekwondo?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> No, what I am engaging in now is correcting your misunderstanding.   The video caption is "Polish Open..."   not any claim of a TSD national championship for whatever that might have been worth to try and support your claim of sparring similarities.  It was also "Stop Point" which ITF has not been for almost 50 years.



They spar exactly the same, stop or not. And we do stop in ITF too, just not instantly.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

andyjeffries said:


> I've had a long held opinion that ITF Taekwon-do is closer to Karate than Kukki-Taekwondo is, this opinion and the video reinforces that opinion. I know ITF stylists tend to disagree, but it always feels to me like if you take Sine-wave out and draw a scale from Shotokan to Kukkiwon, ITF is much closer to the Shotokan end than the Kukkiwon end (or past it).



It seems to depend on lineage. 

These instructional kicks are still chambered side ways.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

andyjeffries said:


> I've had a long held opinion that ITF Taekwon-do is closer to Karate than Kukki-Taekwondo is, this opinion and the video reinforces that opinion..



Only if one thinks Tang Soo Do kicking is close to Karate, and it really isn't if you put them side by side. There's far more hip rotation in TSD kicks, and higher stances. And better flexibility, and more spin kick emphasis.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> No, what I am engaging in now is correcting your misunderstanding.   The video caption is "Polish Open..."   not any claim of a TSD national championship for whatever that might have been worth to try and support your claim of sparring similarities.  It was also "Stop Point" which ITF has not been for almost 50 years.



You left out "Tang So Do" championship.


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> chambered side ways


Sorry I don't understand what you mean by that.

On a different note, the instructor in that video is incredible in real life. GM Hwang, In-sik. He taught us on the Master Instructor course in 2016. He absolutely beasted the 3rd class candidates for an hour in basic kicking (joining in on every one of them), then he absolutely beasted the 2nd/1st class candidates exactly the same. An absolute legend (I believe he's 70 now).


----------



## InfiniteLoop

andyjeffries said:


> Sorry I don't understand what you mean by that.
> 
> On a different note, the instructor in that video is incredible in real life. GM Hwang, In-sik. He taught us on the Master Instructor course in 2016. He absolutely beasted the 3rd class candidates for an hour in basic kicking (joining in on every one of them), then he absolutely beasted the 2nd/1st class candidates exactly the same. An absolute legend (I believe he's 70 now).



He doesn't do a front kick chamber.


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> Only if one thinks Tang Soo Do kicking is close to Karate, and it really isn't if you put them side by side. There's far more hip rotation in TSD kicks, and higher stances. And better flexibility, and more spin kick emphasis.


Considering the most basic kicks, ap chagi and dollyo chagi the Tangsoodo version definitely looks closer to Karate than Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

This Karate sensei certainly things TSD and Karate are pretty similar. 



  He does go on to point out some minor differences, but if they did these forms in a tracksuit, I'd guess Karate before TSD.

I'd love to see a video of Karate kicks, blocks, etc put side to side with ITF and Kukkiwon. Maybe this is a job for me some time...


----------



## InfiniteLoop

andyjeffries said:


> Considering the most basic kicks, ap chagi and dollyo chagi the Tangsoodo version definitely looks closer to Karate than Kukkiwon Taekwondo.
> 
> ...



Not neccesarily, as I showed in the clip linked of GM Hwang


----------



## InfiniteLoop

KKW dollyo time stamped







Tang Soo Do Dollyo time stamped


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Not the same level of practitioners but he's good enough.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> . And we do stop in ITF too, just not instantly.


Can you explain this since ITF rules since 1974 have been "Continuous".


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> You left out "Tang So Do" championship.


I wish I knew if you were being deliberately obtuse or if you truly have a comprehension problem.   To claim that any sort of "Open"   championship where various stylists are present and competing   somehow reflects a single style or system show a fundamental lack of comprehension, which could be attributable to a lack of familiarity with the terminology particularly since it does not say "National Championship" as you misstated.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Can you explain this since ITF rules since 1974 have been "Continuous".


You are not allowed to punch more than two times in succession.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> I wish I knew if you were being deliberately obtuse or if you truly have a comprehension problem.   To claim that any sort of "Open"   championship where various stylists are present and competing   somehow reflects a single style or system show a fundamental lack of comprehension, which could be attributable to a lack of familiarity with the terminology particularly since it does not say "National Championship" as you misstated.



Continous sparring in this grading for black


----------



## dvcochran

andyjeffries said:


> Out of interest have you renamed that school now as Taekwondo has become a much more widely known term? Or if it's closed down and new ones opened, did you continue calling them Karate or switch to using Taekwondo?


When I purchased my 2nd strip mall (where my GM's building is) we changed the name to Shin's Martial Arts. At that time, we also had two other schools in joining counties and 2 other classes in local gyms. Branding was a big reason but MA's being a more general term makes it a more accurate name.


----------



## Flying Crane

InfiniteLoop said:


> And yes, I am Acronym.


Oh I remember you.  Aren’t you the brown belt or some such who likes to tell everyone they are doing it wrong?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Flying Crane said:


> Oh I remember you.  Aren’t you the brown belt or some such who likes to tell everyone they are doing it wrong?



I don't recall telling anyone that they are doing things wrong.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> You are not allowed to punch more than two times in succession.


Please cite a source for this.   It has been a while -2004 I believe since I judged an ITF International competition and no such rule existed at that time.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Please cite a source for this.   It has been a while -2004 I believe since I judged an ITF International competition and no such rule existed at that time.



The source is my school under Yeo Chin Huat. Two punches at most, then you have to throw a kick or stop. Kicks can be thrown infinitely.


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> The source is my school under Yeo Chin Huat. Two punches at most, then you have to throw a kick or stop. Kicks can be thrown infinitely.


Sorry to jump in but no matter who your instructor is, if you claim the whole style has a particular thing/rule/detail you need to cite an authoritative source not just "my instructor says so".


----------



## InfiniteLoop

andyjeffries said:


> Sorry to jump in but no matter who your instructor is, if you claim the whole style has a particular thing/rule/detail you need to cite an authoritative source not just "my instructor says so".



It's too far back for me to remember. I would like to know myself why we used that system. It might be tied to national comp rules


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> The source is my school under Yeo Chin Huat. Two punches at most, then you have to throw a kick or stop. Kicks can be thrown infinitely.


Sorry, must have missed the memo as to when your school set the standard for the ITF.  while your instructor may be well regarded concerning his role in the ITF,  and have good reason for his rules,  school rules are just that, nothing more.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Sorry, must have missed the memo as to when your school set the standard for the ITF.  while your instructor may be well regarded concerning his role in the ITF,  and have good reason for his rules,  school rules are just that, nothing more.



Why wouldn't school rules be relevant to the discussion? Most people will never compete. Their experience will be the schools curriculum.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

FWIW, there's a claim in Alex Gillis's *A Killing Art* that Chuck holds an 8th Dan in ITF:

Page 14: _"The General gave an 8th Degree black belt to Chuck Norris, who has 182 schools. Chuck considers himself a student of the General's."_


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Why wouldn't school rules be relevant to the discussion? Most people will never compete. Their experience will be the schools curriculum.


Because your claim of what ITF sparring is or what TSD sparring is cannot be supported by what some instructor chooses to do.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> FWIW, there's a claim in Alex Gillis's *A Killing Art* that Chuck holds an 8th Dan in ITF:
> 
> Page 14: _"The General gave an 8th Degree black belt to Chuck Norris, who has 182 schools. Chuck considers himself a student of the General's."_


I liked Mr. Gillis book a lot.  However I did send a critique to him. I don't know if any of that served as a basis for any revisions in the second edition. (Page 95 1st Edition erroneously states General Choi awarded Ninth- Degree to Chuck Norris. ) One of my articles is cited in his bibliography.  He does not cite a source for the claim that Chuck Norris as well as Jackie  Chan and Wesley Snipes consider themselves students of General Choi, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall ,and a third person I think Bob Chaney were given "Special" *8th Dan  certificates to recognize their contributions to Martial Arts. 

So, I really have no idea what Chuck Norris studied in the USA but suffice it to say when in Korea he studied TSD, not TK-D.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> I liked Mr. Gillis book a lot.  However I did send a critique to him. I don't know if any of that served as a basis for any revisions in the second edition. (Page 95 1st Edition erroneously states General Choi awarded Ninth- Degree to Chuck Norris. ) One of my articles is cited in his bibliography.  He does not cite a source for the claim that Chuck Norris as well as Jackie  Chan and Wesley Snipes consider themselves students of General Choi, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall ,and a third person I think Bob Chaney were given "Special" *8th Dan  certificates to recognize their contributions to Martial Arts.
> 
> So, I really have no idea what Chuck Norris studied in the USA but suffice it to say when in Korea he studied TSD, not TK-D.



This is the only pattern I've seen him do on film and it’s from Shotokan/TSD


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> I liked Mr. Gillis book a lot.  However I did send a critique to him. I don't know if any of that served as a basis for any revisions in the second edition. (Page 95 1st Edition erroneously states General Choi awarded Ninth- Degree to Chuck Norris. ) One of my articles is cited in his bibliography.  He does not cite a source for the claim that Chuck Norris as well as Jackie  Chan and Wesley Snipes consider themselves students of General Choi, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall ,and a third person I think Bob Chaney were given "Special" *8th Dan  certificates to recognize their contributions to Martial Arts.
> 
> So, I really have no idea what Chuck Norris studied in the USA but suffice it to say when in Korea he studied TSD, not TK-D.



Jackie Chan has stated that he does Hapkido. I'm quite certain that Wesley Snipes holds a dan rank in KKW. Michael Jai White is dan ranked in both ITF and KKW according to himself in an interview with Michael Schiavello.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> So, I really have no idea what Chuck Norris studied in the USA but suffice it to say when in Korea he studied TSD, not TK-D.


He did learn from someone who later became part of the unification, so Chuck at the very least has Dan rank in ATA. Lee was a close friend of his.


----------



## dancingalone

Earl Weiss said:


> So, I really have no idea what Chuck Norris studied in the USA but suffice it to say when in Korea he studied TSD, not TK-D.


Surprised this one is being argued.  Chuck Norris' chain of studios that he opened with Pat Johnson in California taught Tang Soo Do.  Johnson played the referee in the Karate Kid movie and taught the cast some moves.  He is well-known in the Tang Soo Do world and so even before the recent Cobra Kai Netflix series confirmed it, it was bandied around for years that the style the fictional Cobra Kai studied was really Tang Soo Do.

Another data point:  the system Chuck Norris put together and headed for years, Chun Kuk Do, uses many of the more popular Moo Duk Kwan hyung, including the Pyung Ahn sets, Bassai Dae, and Kong Sang Koon.  Obviously these came by way of Japanese karate as Tang Soo Do stylists will readily admit these days.


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> This is the only pattern I've seen him do on film and it’s from Shotokan/TSD


And what pattern do you think that is from?


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> Jackie Chan has stated that he does Hapkido. I'm quite certain that Wesley Snipes holds a dan rank in KKW. Michael Jai White is dan ranked in both ITF and KKW according to himself in an interview with Michael Schiavello.


I am pretty sure Snipes is belted in Shotokan and Hapkido. May have dabbled in other styles. 
Chan is definitely CMA in primary but is also belted in Hapkido. 
White claims to have belts in around 7 styles. How deep the education is seems speculative.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

They don't do this in Karate/TSD kata, called bending ready stance. So there are some differences

I don't need Chuck's jeans


----------



## SahBumNimRush

dvcochran said:


> And what pattern do you think that is from?


I mean, the first half of it is Pyung Ahn O Dan (Pinan Godan, Heian Godan).  Then it looks like he's just doing some floor exercise with some breaking.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

SahBumNimRush said:


> I mean, the first half of it is Pyung Ahn O Dan (Pinan Godan, Heian Godan).  Then it looks like he's just doing some floor exercise with some breaking.



Yep. It's Heian Godan excerpts


----------



## dvcochran

SahBumNimRush said:


> I mean, the first half of it is Pyung Ahn O Dan (Pinan Godan, Heian Godan).  Then it looks like he's just doing some floor exercise with some breaking.


Yes, I thought I saw some Bassai as well.


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> I'm quite certain that Wesley Snipes holds a dan rank in KKW.


I can't find him in the Kukkiwon database (using his first and last name or full name)


----------



## InfiniteLoop

andyjeffries said:


> I can't find him in the Kukkiwon database (using his first and last name or full name)



Can you find Michael Jai White?

 the KKW database isn't complete. It might be ITF. Snipes does hold at least a 2 degree in some TKD branch. My guess was  KKW based on who he was standing next to.


----------



## Earl Weiss

dancingalone said:


> Surprised this one is being argued.


It's only being argued because "The Loop" loves to make rash generalizations based on limited observations and jump to erroneous conclusions.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> I'm quite certain ........................ Michael Jai White is dan ranked in both ITF and KKW according to himself in an interview with Michael Schiavello.


Link to interview please. Tried to find it and video did not play.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Link to interview please. Tried to find it and video did not play.



There is copyright restriction. I watched it before it was flagged on Youtube. 

I have seen MJW perform the double kick from Juche.


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> Can you find Michael Jai White?
> 
> the KKW database isn't complete. It might be ITF. Snipes does hold at least a 2 degree in some TKD branch. My guess was  KKW based on who he was standing next to.



I can't find Michael Jai White either (using his publicly available DOB and name).

The KKW database is complete - Kukkiwon doesn't issue a certificate unless you're in the database (the certificates are generated from the database).

Just to be clear though, if someone claims a "WTF black belt" then that may well be from an independent school that just does the same style (without actually being certified by Kukkiwon). Lots of people confuse the two organisations and use the terms for the style not the organisation.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> It's only being argued because "The Loop" loves to make rash generalizations based on limited observations and jump to erroneous conclusions.



Which generalization am I guilty of?


andyjeffries said:


> I can't find Michael Jai White either (using his publicly available DOB and name).
> 
> The KKW database is complete - Kukkiwon doesn't issue a certificate unless you're in the database (the certificates are generated from the database).
> 
> Just to be clear though, if someone claims a "WTF black belt" then that may well be from an independent school that just does the same style (without actually being certified by Kukkiwon). Lots of people confuse the two organisations and use the terms for the style not the organisation.



There was a period of time when you could get WTF certificates. It was several years ago but I remember someone posting such an example.


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> Which generalization am I guilty of?
> 
> 
> There was a period of time when you could get WTF certificates. It was several years ago but I remember someone posting such an example.



WTF did issue "honorary dan certificates", but they aren't for actual Taekwondo but for global contributions to peace and some such stuff.

They also issued WTF branded proper Dan certificates for about a year back in the 70s or early 80s when WTF was hosted in the Kukkiwon building and the organisational responsibilities were a bit more blurred. However all of that data was imported to the Kukkiwon database when they launched it (source: phone call to Kukkiwon a few years ago when someone else was talking about WTF dan certificates)


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Which generalization am I guilty of?


ITF sparring limits you to 2 punches in a row - because you saw that at your school  - wrong, a video of an open "TSD Championship" with some ITF competitors shows similarities between "ITF Sparring" and   "TSD Sparring" . General Choi awarded Chuck Norris n 8th Dan (Which was a "Special Promotion" recognizing his contribution to MA, so this was evidence Chuck Norris studied TKD as opposed to TSD  decades earlier in Korea.   TSD and TKD in the 1950's would have been virtually indistinguishable. -     are a couple of recent ones.  The last one is more of a faulty premise since there were few if any "TKD schools in the 950's since the name was adopted circa 1955 and as you state the TKD Pioneers were often TSD  Black Belts so there was no "Magic Switch ' That instantly changed  their TSD Habits to different TK-D habits and in fact some never hanged.


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> Which generalization am I guilty of?
> 
> 
> There was a period of time when you could get WTF certificates. It was several years ago but I remember someone posting such an example.


This is incorrect. The exception would be certain honorary certificates WT has given out over the years.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> This is incorrect. The exception would be certain honorary certificates WT has given out over the years.


It is not correct. It was done for a couple of years. Someone posted his WTF certificate on this site many years ago.


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> It is not correct. It was done for a couple of years. Someone posted his WTF certificate on this site many years ago.


WAY back; when WT(F) and KKW were jockeying for political positions this was true. But largely irrelevant and certainly irrelevant to this conversation. 
Again, what is the point you are trying to make?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> TSD and TKD in the 1950's would have been virtually indistinguishable. -     are a couple of recent ones.  The last one is more of a faulty premise since there were few if any "TKD schools in the 950's since the name was adopted circa 1955 and as you state the TKD Pioneers were often TSD  Black Belts so there was no "Magic Switch ' That instantly changed  their TSD Habits to different TK-D habits and in fact some never hanged.



Not faulty at all. There did exist TaeKwonDo schools in the 50s.  




 The reason why they were virtually indistinguishable from Tang Soo Do is due to the fact that very few Korean patterns existed, and the curriculum was not updated over night. As an example, the ITF WC didn't start until 74.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> WAY back; when WT(F) and KKW were jockeying for political positions this was true. But largely irrelevant and certainly irrelevant to this conversation.
> Again, what is the point you are trying to make?



It wasn't way back. It was after 2000, so not that long ago. As I recall from the poster, it only lasted for a short period. Sort of a trial period.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

InfiniteLoop said:


> It wasn't way back. It was after 2000, so not that long ago. As I recall from the poster, it only lasted for a short period. Sort of a trial period.


You can buy them from like ebay and some sketch sites, maybe the poster saw those and got confused?


----------



## andyjeffries

Just for completeness of information:



			https://www.martialartsvohra.com/Kukkiwon_4TH_Dan_Black_Belt_-_1.pdf
		


1984 Black Belt with WTF logo at the top, and Dr Kim, Un-yong signing as WTF President at the bottom (the cert refers to Kukkiwon too, and has KTA logo on it). You can see from Grandmaster Vohra's other certificates, they continue before and after that point as Kukkiwon:





__





						Dan : Vohra Martial Arts - offering International membership in Kukkiwon Taekwondo & other Asian Martial Arts
					





					www.martialartsvohra.com


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> It wasn't way back. It was after 2000, so not that long ago. As I recall from the poster, it only lasted for a short period. Sort of a trial period.



Wasn't that recent, I started in 1986, got my first dan in 1990 and mine was Kukkiwon (and have been since). The one I can find online was 1984 (shared above) and that fits with my memory of when I'd been told it happened.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

andyjeffries said:


> Wasn't that recent, I started in 1986, got my first dan in 1990 and mine was Kukkiwon (and have been since). The one I can find online was 1984 (shared above) and that fits with my memory of when I'd been told it happened.



Yeah maybe my memory is faulty. Anyway, Michael jai White has probably trained in some independent KKW- off shoot if he isn't listed


----------



## InfiniteLoop

MJW is born 1967 though. So maybe he was part of WTF certificates


----------



## andyjeffries

InfiniteLoop said:


> MJW is born 1967 though. So maybe he was part of WTF certificates


Sorry, I think I may not have been clear on some point of this:

* If you look at GM Vohra's Kukkiwon 3rd Dan from the link above, that was a Kukkiwon certificate dated in 1981 (so it was Kukkiwon up until 1981, again his 1978 2nd Dan shows Kukkiwon)
* Even if MJW was in the "WTF issued range" of dates, the Kukkiwon still imported that data and would be in the Kukkiwon database.

My guess is he had a dojang-only certificate from a school that did WTF/WT/Kukkiwon style Taekwondo (if he claims a "black belt in WTF Taekwondo").


----------



## dvcochran

andyjeffries said:


> Just for completeness of information:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.martialartsvohra.com/Kukkiwon_4TH_Dan_Black_Belt_-_1.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 1984 Black Belt with WTF logo at the top, and Dr Kim, Un-yong signing as WTF President at the bottom (the cert refers to Kukkiwon too, and has KTA logo on it). You can see from Grandmaster Vohra's other certificates, they continue before and after that point as Kukkiwon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dan : Vohra Martial Arts - offering International membership in Kukkiwon Taekwondo & other Asian Martial Arts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.martialartsvohra.com


Forgot about that logo being on there. I am certain it is on my 1st - 4th Dan certificates but they are sealed in the frame behind my 5th Dan which is the newer style.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Not faulty at all. There did exist TaeKwonDo schools in the 50s.


Because you found a video captioned "TKD"? 

Name 3  existing before 1955 please include location and instructor. 

Name 3 that existed from 1956-1959 not including the Oh Do Kwan including location and instructor.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Not faulty at all. There did exist TaeKwonDo schools in the 50s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason why they were virtually indistinguishable from Tang Soo Do is due to the fact that very few Korean patterns existed, and the curriculum was not updated over night. As an example, the ITF WC didn't start until 74.


Can Anyone read the Hangul on the uniform at the 1:05 mark?   Doesn't appear to be TKD.


----------



## dvcochran

Earl Weiss said:


> Can Anyone read the Hangul on the uniform at the 1:05 mark?   Doesn't appear to be TKD.


I do not recognize that as Tae Kwon Do Hangul. Possibly in Hanja.

태권도 - Hangul

跆拳道 - Hanja


----------



## andyjeffries

It's definitely Hanja not Hangul and I don't recognise the characters (it seems to be 2 characters, so it's not the Hanja for Taekwondo). I've tried going frame by frame but the video is too compressed/old for me to get a clear look at them to look them up in a dictionary.

I thought it might be Karate (Kongsoo or Tangsoo), but doesn't seem like the final Kanji for Karate either.


----------



## andyjeffries

andyjeffries said:


> It's definitely Hanja not Hangul and I don't recognise the characters (it seems to be 2 characters, so it's not the Hanja for Taekwondo). I've tried going frame by frame but the video is too compressed/old for me to get a clear look at them to look them up in a dictionary.
> 
> I thought it might be Karate (Kongsoo or Tangsoo), but doesn't seem like the final Kanji for Karate either.



The final character doesn't look like Kwan's hanja either (was thinking maybe it's that), but I really can't see enough to tell what it is.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

andyjeffries said:


> It's definitely Hanja not Hangul and I don't recognise the characters (it seems to be 2 characters, so it's not the Hanja for Taekwondo). I've tried going frame by frame but the video is too compressed/old for me to get a clear look at them to look them up in a dictionary.
> 
> I thought it might be Karate (Kongsoo or Tangsoo), but doesn't seem like the final Kanji for Karate either.


Shouldn't the uniforms read Tang Soo Do then? Or were they traditionally non branded?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Because you found a video captioned "TKD"?
> 
> Name 3  existing before 1955 please include location and instructor.
> 
> Name 3 that existed from 1956-1959 not including the Oh Do Kwan including location and instructor.



It doesn't matter if it existed outside of Chois branch or not. It existed in his branch, and he didn't have patterns to grade from white to black belt. Or a sport. or a federation.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Here's 1967 TaeKwonDo. Looks like the exact same stylized sparring as the clip Earl Weiss claims is not TKD.

Type in to Youtube
1960's Taekwondo 태권도 Demonstration ~ Colorized​


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Another poster of the same 50s clip. 

*This video contains some early footage of Tae Kwon Do. It is circa 1956. Please notice the basic and rather crude movements that still resemble the Karate roots that played the biggest influence in the development of Tae Kwon Do.*


----------



## dvcochran

andyjeffries said:


> It's definitely Hanja not Hangul and I don't recognise the characters (it seems to be 2 characters, so it's not the Hanja for Taekwondo). I've tried going frame by frame but the video is too compressed/old for me to get a clear look at them to look them up in a dictionary.
> 
> I thought it might be Karate (Kongsoo or Tangsoo), but doesn't seem like the final Kanji for Karate either.


Agree. I believe the top character (which sort of looks like a cursive 'k') may be a proper name.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

In what way would Chuck have sparred differently  in these open championships if he had joined a TaeKwonDo labelled school?

He spars exactly the same. It's a Korean system, period.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Btw, were there no Japanese style Karate schools taught in Korea post war? Were they all Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do?

It would be interesting to know when the first Shotokan school opened in South Korea.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Earl Weiss said:


> Can Anyone read the Hangul on the uniform at the 1:05 mark?   Doesn't appear to be TKD.


It kind of looks like "senior student" in hanja, but I'm not sure that was a title that someone would have worn on their dobok?  Seonbae Nim?  I know hangul is 선배  I think hanja is 长老


----------



## dvcochran

SahBumNimRush said:


> It kind of looks like "senior student" in hanja, but I'm not sure that was a title that someone would have worn on their dobok?  Seonbae Nim?  I know hangul is 선배  I think hanja is 长老


That could definitely be the 'K' looking symbol.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> It doesn't matter if it existed outside of Chois branch or not. It existed in his branch, and he didn't have patterns to grade from white to black belt. Or a sport. or a federation.


Again, you misunderstand. You have a claim of TSD schools in the 1950's having similar technique to TKD. My point being outside of the Oh Do Kwan which was the singular military gym at that time there were few if any TKD schools so your point has no merit.   Of course the Oh Do Kwan which contained many CDK alums trained in TSD would have had people who retained some TSD habits. 

So, once again I ask if you have any support for your point and if so please specify any TKD schools outside the Oh Do Kwan that even existed  during the time frame you specify? So far all you have is some video of Koreans Kicking and punching that someone labelled TKD.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> In what way would Chuck have sparred differently  in these open championships if he had joined a TaeKwonDo labelled school?
> 
> He spars exactly the same. It's a Korean system, period.


So, now is your claim that any Korean system is TKD?   Is that your basis for claiming that Chuck Norris studied TKD in Korea?


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Here's 1967 TaeKwonDo. Looks like the exact same stylized sparring as the clip Earl Weiss claims is not TKD.
> 
> Type in to Youtube
> 1960's Taekwondo 태권도 Demonstration ~ Colorized​


So, have you now changed your claim from the 1950's to 1960's ?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> So, now is your claim that any Korean system is TKD?   Is that your basis for claiming that Chuck Norris studied TKD in Korea?


Had General Chois unification efforts failed then you, Mr Weiss, would have  most likely been doing Tang Soo Do in 2021, as would I, and the KKW TaeKwonDo branch would have been called Tae Soo Do.

Had I in this life path told you that there is an alternate universe in which General Choi won and Tang Soo Do was renamed TaeKwonDo, you would have labelled me a lunatic.

In Hugh Everetts Many Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, which Stephen Hawkings swore to, this alternative branch has happened...


----------



## InfiniteLoop

So yes, I am not going to let politics get in the way of the fact that we are part of the family known as Korean Karate.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Again, you misunderstand. You have a claim of TSD schools in the 1950's having similar technique to TKD. My point being outside of the Oh Do Kwan which was the singular military gym at that time there were few if any TKD schools so your point has no merit.   Of course the Oh Do Kwan which contained many CDK alums trained in TSD would have had people who retained some TSD habits.
> 
> So, once again I ask if you have any support for your point and if so please specify any TKD schools outside the Oh Do Kwan that even existed  during the time frame you specify? So far all you have is some video of Koreans Kicking and punching that someone labelled TKD.



My basis for that claim is that the philosophy,  techniques and emphasis didn't change with General Chois Oh Do Kwan branch from the already existing Tang Soo Do system. He copy and pasted Gishin Funakoshis one strike, one kill, and changed "kill" to "victory" . He also took the makiwara and put in the first encyclopedia as a training tool.

If you drive up in a Lexus and I said: "_Nice Toyota_!" Would you take offense?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

AND, in the first Korean Tae Kwon-Do Encyclopedia, Choi also referenced/demo'd Shotokan Katas!

So if Chuck Norris isn't TaeKwonDo for practising Shotokan Katas, neither is Chois Oh Do Kwan branch in the 50s.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> If you drive up in a Lexus and I said: "_Nice Toyota_!" Would you take offense?


I  wouldn't because it would never happen,  I am a "Detroit Iron" guy. But I know some who would and have.


----------



## Dirty Dog

InfiniteLoop said:


> If you drive up in a Lexus and I said: "_Nice Toyota_!" Would you take offense?


No. Your ignorance is your problem.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> My basis for that claim is that the philosophy,  techniques and emphasis didn't change with General Chois Oh Do Kwan branch from the already existing Tang Soo Do system. H


This is a question of perspective and a matter of degree so it's a silly point to argue.   It would be like arguing when Shotokan was distinct from the Shorin and Shorei Ryus since Funakoshi adopted a lot of the prior stuff. Similarly one could make the claim concerning Kano and Judo  and it's predecessors.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> I  wouldn't because it would never happen,  I am a "Detroit Iron" guy. But I know some who would and have.



If some aquintances of yours in a social gathering says that you do "Karate", would you correct him? He only missed a word for it to be correct. 


Earl Weiss said:


> This is a question of perspective and a matter of degree so it's a silly point to argue.   It would be like arguing when Shotokan was distinct from the Shorin and Shorei Ryus since Funakoshi adopted a lot of the prior stuff. Similarly one could make the claim concerning Kano and Judo  and it's predecessors.


Point remains,  if there is something that would have changed in Chuck Norris's tournament fighting by affiliating with the Oh Do Kwan Branch, I would like to know what that is. If no such thing that can be referenced, then "virtually indistinguishable" is a correct way of putting it.

While we are on the subject of semantics...  Why didn't the late Skipper Mullins change school name to TaeKwonDo?

"In 1968, he became the vice president of Steen's Texas Karate Institute.[2] He was a founding member and director of the Southwest Karate Black Belt Association, later renamed the American Karate Black Belt Association.[2]"


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> AND, in the first Korean Tae Kwon-Do Encyclopedia, Choi also referenced/demo'd Shotokan Katas!


First and foremost calling it "The Encyclopedia' is erroneous. That refers to the 15 Volume set. 

Secondly, these patterns were clearly identified as being from the "Shorin"  and "Shorei" (page  216) Schools which predated Shotokan, so are either wrong again or simply have a disdain for accurate terminology.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> If some aquintances of yours in a social gathering says that you do "Karate", would you correct him? He only missed a word for it to be correct.


You betcha. I would tell him "Karate is for people who can't do TK-D."


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> While we are on the subject of semantics...  Why didn't the late Skipper Mullins change school name to TaeKwonDo?


You are seriously asking me this question.   Perhaps one day you will get to ask Skipper Mullins.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> You betcha. I would tell him "Karate is for people who can't do TK-D."



Ha! Would you tell that to this guy? He might have some resemblance to me..Not sure... . . I hope he doesn't sue me for copyright infringement!   He was a kicker.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> You are seriously asking me this question.   Perhaps one day you will get to ask Skipper Mullins.


Well, you made the case that patterns define the name of the art.. You seem to be in a minority with that viewpoint


----------



## SahBumNimRush

InfiniteLoop said:


> Well, you made the case that patterns define the name of the art.. You seem to be in a minority with that viewpoint


I don't think GM Weiss was making that case at all.  You really like to argue every post, huh? 

Those early days where the names and lines were blurred.  People chose sides, people used names, so what?  I fall into a category of retaining Japanese/Okinawan Karate forms, but also use the term Taekwondo.  Why?  Because that is what my Kwan Jang Nim calls it.  He was part of the Moo Duk Kwan that joined the unification process, but many of those folks left Korea before many of the "updates" happened.  Why would he learn something erroneously new, just to maintain a namesake?  I don't believe it makes my art any less valid to call it Taekwondo.  IMHO, Taekwondo is a broad umbrella term, similar to Karate.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

SahBumNimRush said:


> I don't think GM Weiss was making that case at all.  You really like to argue every post, huh?



"Am I doing Tang Soo Do or TaeKwonDo if I train without doing patterns?" His reply was that I am doing neither in that case.


----------



## Dirty Dog

InfiniteLoop said:


> "Am I doing Tang Soo Do or TaeKwonDo if I train without doing patterns?" His reply was that I am doing neither in that case.


It's not that complicated. An art can be defined by it's curriculum. Forms are part of that curriculum. If you're not training using that curriculum, you're not practicing that art. You're just practicing kicking and punching.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not that complicated. An art can be defined by it's curriculum. Forms are part of that curriculum. If you're not training using that curriculum, you're not practicing that art. You're just practicing kicking and punching.


Nonsense definition. Kihon/basics training in class has techniques drilled in isolation from patterns. Basics training is not in anyway shape or form considered cross training.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

So.. You don't need to do every part, or even most part of a curriculum to be practicing art X. If that were the case, my red belt should be revoked since I was denied throws training, even though throws is part of the curriculum in ITF.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

InfiniteLoop said:


> Nonsense definition. Kihon/basics training in class has techniques drilled in isolation from patterns. Basics training is not in anyway shape or form considered cross training.


I'm not sure if there is a language barrier here, but you seem to twist every point made on these threads to further some sort of "debate."  Training a small piece of an art, rather than its totality, so an argument could be made that you're not practicing the art, just parts.  No one made the argument that it meant it was cross training.  

There are no "schools" or "styles" that are widely accepted as TKD or TSD that do not have any forms/patterns that I am aware of.  They are all, to some extent, an integral part of training.  Most of my training curriculum is directly tied to my forms.  The only parts that aren't really, are the kicking part of the curriculum.  

For example, I wouldn't consider a musician that only practicing scales, to practicing musical composition.  Sure, proficiency in scale knowledge is required/a part of, musical composition.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'm not sure if there is a language barrier here, but you seem to twist every point made on these threads to further some sort of "debate."  Training a small piece of an art, rather than its totality, so an argument could be made that you're not practicing the art, just parts.  No one made the argument that it meant it was cross training.
> 
> There are no "schools" or "styles" that are widely accepted as TKD or TSD that do not have any forms/patterns that I am aware of.  They are all, to some extent, an integral part of training.  Most of my training curriculum is directly tied to my forms.  The only parts that aren't really, are the kicking part of the curriculum.
> 
> For example, I wouldn't consider a musician that only practicing scales, to practicing musical composition.  Sure, proficiency in scale knowledge is required/a part of, musical composition.



Well ITF sparring is not at all connected to its forms... We don't use any punching mechanic from forms in sparring. We use mainly superman punches, which are not part of any forms or basics for that matter. 

 There are independent schools that abandoned patterns. I referenced one in Serbia but the point sailed right passed Earl.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

InfiniteLoop said:


> Well ITF sparring is not at all connected to its forms... We don't use any punching mechanic from forms in sparring. We use mainly superman punches, which are not part of any forms or basics for that matter.
> 
> There are independent schools that abandoned patterns. I referenced one in Serbia but the point sailed right passed Earl.



I guess that does bring up a valid point.  IF we consider Taekwondo a large-ish umbrella that encompasses a few different "versions," do we count the *sport* as part of the art?  I assume schools that only practice sparring, are sport focused (which again, I would argue is a very small portion of the totality of the art).  I would say that the general public accepts what they do as TKD, (various TKD camps debate this, I am sure).  I mean, there are athletes that compete on the world stage under the name TKD, and I would call them TKD athletes.  I competed in the 90's in events such as the JR Olympics.  I did not compete in the Poomse, as I didn't know those forms.  Could an argument be made that I didn't practice Olympic style TKD (Kukki TKD)?  Sure, in fact, I would agree that I did not, as I did not train the entirety of that curriculum.  I merely competed under those rules for certain competitions.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

SahBumNimRush said:


> I guess that does bring up a valid point.  IF we consider Taekwondo a large-ish umbrella that encompasses a few different "versions," do we count the *sport* as part of the art?  I assume schools that only practice sparring, are sport focused (which again, I would argue is a very small portion of the totality of the art).  I would say that the general public accepts what they do as TKD, (various TKD camps debate this, I am sure).  I mean, there are athletes that compete on the world stage under the name TKD, and I would call them TKD athletes.  I competed in the 90's in events such as the JR Olympics.  I did not compete in the Poomse, as I didn't know those forms.  Could an argument be made that I didn't practice Olympic style TKD (Kukki TKD)?  Sure, in fact, I would agree that I did not, as I did not train the entirety of that curriculum.  I merely competed under those rules for certain competitions.



I don't understand the argument that you have to practice the full curriculum in order to be deemed a practitioner of the art. If you practice the basic moves, you are training the art. Even someone who practices 50% of a wushu demonstration sequence is still training Wushu in my opinion.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Now this rubs me the wrong way. A South Korean named Jhoon Rhee who devoted his life to promoting TaeKwonDo, and was even named father of TaeKwonDo in the America, is pictured next to a TSD label by a Japanese milliennial..

Is it a coincidence that it's a Japanese Karateka doing this?


----------



## SahBumNimRush

InfiniteLoop said:


> I don't understand the argument that you have to practice the full curriculum in order to be deemed a practitioner of the art. If you practice the basic moves, you are training the art. Even someone who practices 50% of a wushu demonstration sequence is still training Wushu in my opinion.



IMHO, the argument boils down to representing and passing on the art.  A hobbyist practicing bits and pieces, represents little harm.  However, practicing 50%, passing that knowledge on, misrepresents the art.  You end up with people who trained 100% of what they were taught, and still only know 50% of the art.  Many of the folks on this forum have devoted a large portion of time and energy into training their representative arts, and have taken on the responsibility of being "keepers of the way."  Deviating and leaving those parts behind, hinders your ability to pass on the art.  I.e. it only enables you to pass on the parts you maintain proficiency and knowledge in.  

How long does it take to lose proficiency in your forms training?  Not long, a couple of months off of consistent training, you may lose small details.  I see it in my college aged students who come back to train in the summers.  Some practice while away at school, others do not.  Those who do not, have to struggle a bit to knock the proverbial rust off.  Imagine if you took years off, and then decided to teach others?  

Some one who knows how to stick weld, and practices stick welding, but doesn't know how to mig or tig weld, would you call them a welder?  I don't think any certified welder would think so.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

SahBumNimRush said:


> IMHO, the argument boils down to representing and passing on the art.  A hobbyist practicing bits and pieces, represents little harm.  However, practicing 50%, passing that knowledge on, misrepresents the art.  You end up with people who trained 100% of what they were taught, and still only know 50% of the art.  Many of the folks on this forum have devoted a large portion of time and energy into training their representative arts, and have taken on the responsibility of being "keepers of the way."  Deviating and leaving those parts behind, hinders your ability to pass on the art.  I.e. it only enables you to pass on the parts you maintain proficiency and knowledge in.
> 
> How long does it take to lose proficiency in your forms training?  Not long, a couple of months off of consistent training, you may lose small details.  I see it in my college aged students who come back to train in the summers.  Some practice while away at school, others do not.  Those who do not, have to struggle a bit to knock the proverbial rust off.  Imagine if you took years off, and then decided to teach others?
> 
> Some one who knows how to stick weld, and practices stick welding, but doesn't know how to mig or tig weld, would you call them a welder?  I don't think any certified welder would think so.




I would only agree if the bits and pieces overlap with every other martial art. Since they don't do that, no matter how subtle, one is still practicing the art. As to teaching, that's an entirely different matter.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> There are independent schools that abandoned patterns. I referenced one in Serbia but the point sailed right passed Earl.


Didn't sail past me. it's a non issue.  Any school can do whatever they want if independent  and  call it whatever they want Doesn't mean anything.


----------



## dancingalone

InfiniteLoop said:


> Now this rubs me the wrong way. A South Korean named Jhoon Rhee who devoted his life to promoting TaeKwonDo, and was even named father of TaeKwonDo in the America, is pictured next to a TSD label by a Japanese milliennial..
> 
> Is it a coincidence that it's a Japanese Karateka doing this?


I am in Jhoon Rhee's lineage for tae kwon do.  He was a relatively senior Chung Do Kwan practitioner before the tae kwon do unification.  I doubt he would have been offended by someone referring to him as tang soo do, despite being known in some circles as the "Father of American Tae Kwon Do".


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> I don't understand the argument that you have to practice the full curriculum in order to be deemed a practitioner of the art


The above pretty much sums it up - you don't understand.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> The above pretty much sums it up - you don't understand.


Old people who no longer do aerials aren't practicing TaeKwonDo?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

dancingalone said:


> I am in Jhoon Rhee's lineage for tae kwon do.  He was a relatively senior Chung Do Kwan practitioner before the tae kwon do unification.  I doubt he would have been offended by someone referring to him as tang soo do, despite being known in some circles as the "Father of American Tae Kwon Do".



Some circles being THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES. Show me one guy referring to Jhoon Rhee as Tang Soo Do outside of that Japanese who is just doing it to provoke. It's not hard to google that Jhoon Rhee joined the unification


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Didn't sail past me. it's a non issue.  Any school can do whatever they want if independent  and  call it whatever they want Doesn't mean anything.



Do you seriously believe that Chois branch in the 50s trained one or two Korean forms exclusively and no Japanese? That would be curious given that he based his entire forms on Shotokan, including black belt forms, simply adding a few aerials into the soup.


----------



## dvcochran

SahBumNimRush said:


> IMHO, the argument boils down to representing and passing on the art.  A hobbyist practicing bits and pieces, represents little harm.  However, practicing 50%, passing that knowledge on, misrepresents the art.  You end up with people who trained 100% of what they were taught, and still only know 50% of the art.  Many of the folks on this forum have devoted a large portion of time and energy into training their representative arts, and have taken on the responsibility of being "keepers of the way."  Deviating and leaving those parts behind, hinders your ability to pass on the art.  I.e. it only enables you to pass on the parts you maintain proficiency and knowledge in.
> 
> How long does it take to lose proficiency in your forms training?  Not long, a couple of months off of consistent training, you may lose small details.  I see it in my college aged students who come back to train in the summers.  Some practice while away at school, others do not.  Those who do not, have to struggle a bit to knock the proverbial rust off.  Imagine if you took years off, and then decided to teach others?
> 
> Some one who knows how to stick weld, and practices stick welding, but doesn't know how to mig or tig weld, would you call them a welder?  I don't think any certified welder would think so.


Respectfully, if they do it for a living, I would call that stick welder a specialist. I would say the same for people who only know how to tig (a very different animal). 
Mig welding is called child’s welding for good reason, not trying to take anything away from it. 

I do feel this is analogous with your argument which is spot on IMHO.


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> Do you seriously believe that Chois branch in the 50s trained one or two korean forms exhaustively and no Japanese? That would be curious given that he based his entire forms on Shotokan, including black belt forms, simply adding a few aerials into the soup.


When GM Choi created his own form set and they were Not under the Karate moniker they were Not karate forms. How is this so hard to understand?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> When GM Choi created his own form set and they were Not under the Karate moniker they were Not karate forms. How is this so hard to understand?



He had no created forms in 1955.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

I'm trying to dig up the first form released. 1959 is the year I remember having at least one.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Website is down but just as I remembered.. Choi only had 5 patterns done by 1959!!! So a fair guess is that he had NONE in 1955, certainly not 24.

_"In October 1959, the first ever Taekwon-Do book was published. It contained several Karate kata and five other patterns: Hwa Rang, Choong Moo, Ul Ji, U Nam, Sam"_


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Charles Norris stationed in South Korea in 1958 doesn't even have white and yellow belt patterns if he decided to join General Chois outcast of Oh Do Kwan with the *TaeKwonDo *moniker.

That's what I call virtually indistinguishable......


----------



## dancingalone

InfiniteLoop said:


> Some circles being THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES. Show me one guy referring to Jhoon Rhee as Tang Soo Do outside of that Japanese who is just doing it to provoke. It's not hard to google that Jhoon Rhee joined the unification



He was with General Choi for a short time, certainly not decades.  I don't really think of him as part of the unification at all.  He really wasn't an ITF/General Choi man, nor was he part of the group that ousted Choi and created the Kukkiwon. 

By the way, you obviously don't know the history of the Chung Do Kwan.  The founder of the Chung Do Kwan, Lee Won Kuk, was a Shotokan practitioner who later returned to Japan to live, even earning some considerable emnity from his fellow Koreans for it.  GM Lee called his art as Tang Soo Do, literally the Korean way of saying the same characters as "karate".  Jhoon Rhee would have been very used to hearing Chung Do Kwan style referred to as "Tang Soo Do", even if he used the name Tae Kwon Do later in the USA.

Edit:  ah, never mind.  Just saw the post where you acknowledged you're the poster Acronym.  Wasting my time.  Good night!


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Do you seriously believe that Chois branch in the 50s trained one or two Korean forms exclusively and no Japanese? That would be curious given that he based his entire forms on Shotokan, including black belt forms, simply adding a few aerials into the soup.


First and foremost there was no branch until 1955 or so. Secondly - that was the whole point - trash the Japanese connection.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> First and foremost there was no branch until 1955 or so. Secondly - that was the whole point - trash the Japanese connection.



I didn't ask what he he did prior to 1955. He had 5 patterns in 1959. How do you trash the Japanese in the mid 50s with no patterns?

 I ask again; what exactly do you think they did back then?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

If Choi was set out to trash the Japanese connection, he didn't do a very good job.

The Chang Hon forms is a love letter to Japanese Karate. All Choi did was mix around move orders and add a few spin and jump kicks.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> I didn't ask what he he did prior to 1955. He had 5 patterns in 1959. How do you trash the Japanese in the mid 50s with no patterns?
> 
> I ask again; what exactly do you think they did back then?


Kick, Punch , Train, develop new patterns.   Have you heard of "Captain Obvious" ? No one ever claimed a switch was flipped and everything new happened instantly. I ask again- name 3 TKD schools that existed between 1955-1959 without naming the Oh Do Kwan / 29th infantry division.  Please specify where they were and who the instructors were.   Unless or until you can provide this information   your  claim that there were TKD schools during that period who essentially practiced TSD fails.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> If Choi was set out to trash the Japanese connection, he didn't do a very good job.
> 
> The Chang Hon forms is a love letter to Japanese Karate. All Choi did was mix around move orders and add a few spin and jump kicks.


Do you consider Okinawan Martial Arts the same as Japanese Martial Arts?


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> I didn't ask what he he did prior to 1955. He had 5 patterns in 1959. How do you trash the Japanese in the mid 50s with no patterns?


If your premise is that the ONLY way to have a new MA System is to have new patterns, then your premise is faulty.   You can codify a  new system through technical parameters for fundamental techniques.  Take stances for instance as one element. Codifying length, width, angles of feet, weight distribution, amount of knee bend etc.  Once you codify technical parameters, you then develop patterns containing the fundamental techniques.   According to General Choi's Bio, this is what he did creating the "foundation" from 1946-1955. This also follows how he wanted TK-D taught, teach the fundamental techniques that are new to a pattern before teaching the pattern, and also how his 15 Volume set is laid out with Fundamental techniques in earlier volumes, patterns in later volumes with each pattern section being preceded with details  about each new / additional technique not performed in earlier patterns. 

Your "Mid 50's" no patterns point is moot since "Tk-D" wasn't born until the the mid 1950's  (1955) or so and no one claims it sprang from the womb fully formed.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> If your premise is that the ONLY way to have a new MA System is to have new patterns, then your premise is faulty.   You can codify a  new system through technical parameters for fundamental techniques.  Take stances for instance as one element. Codifying length, width, angles of feet, weight distribution, amount of knee bend etc.  Once you codify technical parameters, you then develop patterns containing the fundamental techniques.   According to General Choi's Bio, this is what he did creating the "foundation" from 1946-1955. This also follows how he wanted TK-D taught, teach the fundamental techniques that are new to a pattern before teaching the pattern, and also how his 15 Volume set is laid out with Fundamental techniques in earlier volumes, patterns in later volumes with each pattern section being preceded with details  about each new / additional technique not performed in earlier patterns.
> 
> Your "Mid 50's" no patterns point is moot since "Tk-D" wasn't born until the the mid 1950's  (1955) or so and no one claims it sprang from the womb fully formed.



We don't know which type of Shotokan General Choi learned. Shotokan went through a transition phase during WW2, in which stances got deeper and wider. Whether Choi was ever exposed to this will never be known. Needless to say, that change didn't happen over night either.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Your "Mid 50's" no patterns point is moot since "Tk-D" wasn't born until the the mid 1950's  (1955) or so and no one claims it sprang from the womb fully formed.



You were the one disputing my claim that Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo were virtually indistinguishable in the mid 50s.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Do you consider Okinawan Martial Arts the same as Japanese Martial Arts?



No, I was referring to the first Japanese Karate system, which was Funakoshis branch of Karate. He renamed it Karate. It had distinct japanese influences to its katas.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Do you consider Okinawan Martial Arts the same as Japanese Martial Arts?



I know where you are going with this but in case you didn't know, General Choi learned Shotokan, not Okinawan Karate styles. His plea to Okinawa is just a way to ignore the Japanese elephant in the room.  He could have done this more smoothly by _not_ basing his forms on Shotokan.... And I'm being generous using the word "based"


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> You were the one disputing my claim that Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo were virtually indistinguishable in the mid 50s.


I do not understand how you fail to grasp:

1. There was no TKD prior to 1955 so their is no point in your claim that they were indistinguishable on or prior to that. 
2. From 1955-1960   there were few if any TKD schools  (you have failed to identify any- ODK not withstanding)  so once agai there was nothing to distinguish.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> No, I was referring to the first Japanese Karate system, which was Funakoshis branch of Karate. He renamed it Karate. It had distinct japanese influences to its katas.


So, once again your claim fails vis a vis  Shotokan patterns referenced in General Choi's book since although used and adopted by Funakoshi they were from Okinawan systems.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> So, once again your claim fails vis a vis  Shotokan patterns referenced in General Choi's book since although used and adopted by Funakoshi they were from Okinawan systems.


Watch Okinawa Karate styles and the Shotokan karate styles different  interpretation of the patterns,  then compare which one ITF looks closer to. Then tell me whether he based his forms on the Japanese interpretation or the Okinawan. You already know the answer. 


Earl Weiss said:


> 2. From 1955-1960   there were few if any TKD schools  (you have failed to identify any- ODK not withstanding)  so once agai there was nothing to distin


There was Chois ODK compared to TSD. That's a datapoint to compare.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> There was Chois ODK compared to TSD. That's a datapoint to compare.


So far that is the only data point to compare - any other TKD schools in the 1950's  you would like to compare?   Name , Location / instructor and date please.    Unless or until you can do that it's a forgone conclusion your point    (TKD Schools in the 1950's resembling TSD) has no merit.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> So far that is the only data point to compare - any other TKD schools in the 1950's  you would like to compare?   Name , Location / instructor and date please.    Unless or until you can do that it's a forgone conclusion your point    (TKD Schools in the 1950's resembling TSD) has no merit.



Why does there have to be more than Chois branch for my claim to hold weight?


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Why does there have to be more than Chois branch for my claim to hold weight?


Because you mention TSD and TKD schools - plural. 

You are trying to compare  TSD to something that did not exist excep for the inception of TKD in the Oh Do Kwan post 1955.   It is a fact that he recruited top Korean MA talent and the ODK was heavily populated by CDK luminaries since that was the largest gym at the time.  It's no surprise that CDK talent who learned TSD did not instantly change their habits,

You have a habit of changing your argument as the fallacies are pointed out.   Is your argument  now that when TKD was created theTKD gym had people who were indistinguishable from TSD - Well of course that is true - because they were TSD Black Belts.   

So, are you conceding now there was one and only one TKD gym in the 1950's that appeared to be doing TSD?


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Because you mention TSD and TKD schools - plural.
> 
> You are trying to compare  TSD to something that did not exist excep for the inception of TKD in the Oh Do Kwan post 1955.   It is a fact that he recruited top Korean MA talent and the ODK was heavily populated by CDK luminaries since that was the largest gym at the time.  It's no surprise that CDK talent who learned TSD did not instantly change their habits,
> 
> You have a habit of changing your argument as the fallacies are pointed out.   Is your argument  now that when TKD was created theTKD gym had people who were indistinguishable from TSD - Well of course that is true - because they were TSD Black Belts.
> 
> So, are you conceding now there was one and only one TKD gym in the 1950's that appeared to be doing TSD?



So you were arguing with me all this time bout about the use of plural,.


Earl Weiss said:


> Because you mention TSD and TKD schools - plural.
> 
> You are trying to compare  TSD to something that did not exist excep for the inception of TKD in the Oh Do Kwan post 1955.   It is a fact that he recruited top Korean MA talent and the ODK was heavily populated by CDK luminaries since that was the largest gym at the time.  It's no surprise that CDK talent who learned TSD did not instantly change their habits,
> 
> You have a habit of changing your argument as the fallacies are pointed out.   Is your argument  now that when TKD was created theTKD gym had people who were indistinguishable from TSD - Well of course that is true - because they were TSD Black Belts.
> 
> So, are you conceding now there was one and only one TKD gym in the 1950's that appeared to be doing TSD?



It was my understanding that schools (plural) adopted the TKD moniker after the 1955 unification, since that was the hole point. If no such thing happened, what exactly was the unification? Unification entails pluralism.

General Choi did not seek approval from the South Korean president to merely name his own branch. That would obviously not be neccesary, and it wouldn't be a unification since it would only involve him and no other parties.


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> It was my understanding that schools (plural) adopted the TKD moniker after the 1955 unification,


Sir, that is your misunderstanding.   There was a meeting  pegged as April 1955 (With some info that may not be accurate)   agreeing to adopt that name.   

This was vigorously opposed by many and took quite a while to become a reality.  It really did not happen much if at all to until 1960 or later. Further, no one claimed that the instant a name was adopted a switch was flipped and  other systems magically and immediately changed their technique.    That did not mean TSD people were suddenly doing TK-D.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, that is your misunderstanding.   There was a meeting  pegged as April 1955 (With some info that may not be accurate)   agreeing to adopt that name.
> 
> This was vigorously opposed by many and took quite a while to become a reality.  It really did not happen much if at all to until 1960 or later. Further, no one claimed that the instant a name was adopted a switch was flipped and  other systems magically and immediately changed their technique.    That did not mean TSD people were suddenly doing TK-D


I won't take your word for it but leaving that aside, what I'm arguing, based on my research and observations, is that Tang Soo Do had already formed its own Korean identity, and so the name change was intended to reflect a change rather than impose one. That is not to say that additional changes didn't occur.

If you don't think that TSD had its own identity, then you have to account for why they kick TKD-style with the hips, why they spar TKD style with the legs, etc.

You also have to take into account that the supposed revolution TKD brought to kicking by emphasizing spins, jumps, and turns was already taking place in TSD, as stated by Chuck Norris stationed in South Korea 1958, joining a TSD school performing moves we today associate with TaeKwonDo.


----------



## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> So you were arguing with me all this time bout about the use of plural,.
> 
> 
> It was my understanding that schools (plural) adopted the TKD moniker after the 1955 unification, since that was the hole point. Ifno such thing happened, what exactly was the unification? Unification entails pluralism.
> 
> General Choi did not seek approval from the South Korean president to merely name his own branch. That would obviously not be neccesary, and it wouldn't be a unification since it would only involve him and no other parties.


You really need to study the S. Korean political system before you claim to know anything about the unification. So much more was involved.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> You really need to study the S. Korean political system before you claim to know anything about the unification. So much more was involved.



I am quite well read on the subject. There was obviously resistance. But to suggest that not a single school adopted Chois TaeKwon-Do moniker in 1955-1958 is pushing it. That is not my reading of it.

Did it mean anything to adopt the name change? Most definitely not. After all, there weren't any Korean patterns available. It was later shown that even when a full set of patterns were available, schools didn't neccesarily adopt them,  settling only for the name change to TaeKwon-Do.

Which again supports my claim that the difference between Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo was virtually indistinguishable.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

This discussing reminds of when Jesse Ventura got into trouble for claiming to be a Navy Seal, which he in fact wasn't.

Jesse Ventura was part of the precursor to the Navy Seal called UTDs - Underwater Demolition which later did become part of the Seals... However, both existed independent of each other when Ventura served. He never served in a Seal Team but they are retroactively rewritten as Seal Team Units in the history books, due to the fact that todays teams are part of the Seal..


----------



## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> But to suggest that not a single school adopted Chois TaeKwon-Do moniker in 1955-1958 is pushing it. That is not my reading of it.


Sir,  well  cite your source of "reading" please. Seems you have now changed your position once again to a 1955-58 timeline instead of the 1950's . SI have asked numerous times for you to cite 3 schools doing " TKD"   during that time outside of the ODK / 29th infantry division and so far the result is Zero.   How about one school?    


InfiniteLoop said:


> Which again supports my claim that the difference between Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo was virtually indistinguishable.


You started out by claiming Chuck Norris did "TKD" in Korea. When shown to be wrong you changed your argument to say well TKD schools then were indistinguishable from TSD so apparently you consider it the same thing.


----------



## isshinryuronin

Dear Mr. Weiss,  

InfiniteLoop's moniker is well named.  He just goes around and around _ad infinitum_.  If his sparring is as elusive as his written points, he would be hard to hit, indeed.


----------



## Buka

I've taught in one Tae-Kwon-Do dojo and in several Tang-Soo-Do dojos over the years. They were run by friends of mine. I taught them what I did (American Karate) because that's what they asked me to teach.

To me, the TKD guys and the Tang Soo guys moved and kicked differently.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Buka said:


> I've taught in one Tae-Kwon-Do dojo and in several Tang-Soo-Do dojos over the years. They were run by friends of mine. I taught them what I did (American Karate) because that's what they asked me to teach.
> 
> To me, the TKD guys and the Tang Soo guys moved and kicked differently.


The differences are subtle, but real. I'm sure it's difficult for those without a lot of experience to notice.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Buka said:


> To me, the TKD guys and the Tang Soo guys moved and kicked differently.




I have posted footage showing the same hip mechanics, stances, rushed and badly controlled, pillow fighting punching etc... ITF sparring in a nutshell.

As for forms, more even level between hands and kicks than in TaeKwonDo. It's clear that the TSD folks spend a bit more time on punches, albeit demo punches.


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Buka said:


> I've taught in one Tae-Kwon-Do dojo and in several Tang-Soo-Do dojos over the years. They were run by friends of mine. I taught them what I did (American Karate) because that's what they asked me to teach.
> 
> To me, the TKD guys and the Tang Soo guys moved and kicked differently.



What was the federation? I have seen TKD dojos that look exactly like Shotokan. And Shotokan does not look like TSD even though it came from Shotokan


----------



## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir,  well  cite your source of "reading" please. Seems you have now changed your position once again to a 1955-58 timeline instead of the 1950's . SI have asked numerous times for you to cite 3 schools doing " TKD"   during that time outside of the ODK / 29th infantry division and so far the result is Zero.   How about one school?
> 
> You started out by claiming Chuck Norris did "TKD" in Korea. When shown to be wrong you changed your argument to say well TKD schools then were indistinguishable from TSD so apparently you consider it the same thing.



Your inaccurate recaps are getting tiresome. I never claimed that Chuck Norris joined any TKD labelled school in Korea.


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## InfiniteLoop

Dirty Dog said:


> The differences are subtle, but real. I'm sure it's difficult for those without a lot of experience to notice.



I think Chuck Norris has enough experience.


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## Dirty Dog

InfiniteLoop said:


> I think Chuck Norris has enough experience.


Apparently, you do not.


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## InfiniteLoop

Dirty Dog said:


> Apparently, you do not.



Did I roundhouse kick you in the head in a past lifetime? I have nothing against you, but you clearly have some beef with me.

Chuck Norris in one interview stated : it was wasn't yet called TaeKwonDo"  in another: Now it's called TaeKwonDo.

So, does Chuck lack experience talking about Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo interchangeably?


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## dvcochran

Buka said:


> I've taught in one Tae-Kwon-Do dojo and in several Tang-Soo-Do dojos over the years. They were run by friends of mine. I taught them what I did (American Karate) because that's what they asked me to teach.
> 
> To me, the TKD guys and the Tang Soo guys moved and kicked differently.


Would it be accurate from your experience that the TSD kicks were closer to Karate kicks?


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## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Did I roundhouse kick you in the head in a past lifetime? I have nothing against you, but you clearly have some beef with me.
> 
> Chuck Norris in one interview stated : it was wasn't yet called TaeKwonDo"  in another: Now it's called TaeKwonDo.
> 
> So, does Chuck lack experience talking about Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo interchangeably?


Sir, what you are doing is called "Arguing From Authority"   Argument from Authority — Critical Thinking | Intelligent Speculation, which is the false belief that the "Authority" is the final word on the topic. *  IF*   note the big IF, you feel Chuck Norris is the final word and correct in believing that TKD   was simply a new name for TKD then so be it.   If it was not simply a new name, then your belief that he did TKD in Korea remains erroneous.


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## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, what you are doing is called "Arguing From Authority"   Argument from Authority — Critical Thinking | Intelligent Speculation, which is the false belief that the "Authority" is the final word on the topic. *  IF*   note the big IF, you feel Chuck Norris is the final word and correct in believing that TKD   was simply a new name for TKD then so be it.   If it was not simply a new name, then your belief that he did TKD in Korea remains erroneous.



Dirty Dog was the one using argument of authority (lack of experience) as an explanation... I then appropriately reminded him that it was Chuck Norris who started this debate and thread with his statements, not I...

And Chuck is hardly inexperienced


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## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> *IF*   note the big IF, you feel Chuck Norris is the final word and correct in believing that TKD   was simply a new name for TKD then so be it.  If it was not simply a new name, then your our belief that he did TKD in Korea remains erroneous.


There is no yes or no. It all depends on ones perspective. 

By way of analogy, wolf and dogs were once believe to be  different species. Whether you think they are or not is up to the observer.

_For years, wolves and dogs were considered separate species: canis familiaris and canis lupus. However, more recently, scientists generally agree they are _*both a sub-species of canis lupus*


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## InfiniteLoop

Earl, since you like to invoke stance modifications as your go-to-argument... 

Do these stances look any different from the stance height in TaeKwonDo?.....


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## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> Earl, since you like to invoke stance modifications as your go-to-argument...
> 
> Do these stances look any different from the stance height in TaeKwonDo?.....


Very nice kicks. What/when are you referring to in 'stance'?


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## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> Very nice kicks. What/when are you referring to in 'stance'?



Standing leg is straight, for instance. I don't think they were very good kicks though...


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## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> Standing leg is straight, for instance. I don't think they were very good kicks though...


Not it is not straight. It is in do a good sparring position. It is not overtly bent like some forms stances do for conditioning and other reasons. 
Something a person of experience would know.


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## InfiniteLoop

dvcochran said:


> Not it is not straight. It is in do a good sparring position. It is not overtly bent like some forms stances do for conditioning and other reasons.
> Something a person of experience would know.



This is coming from the guy who thinks a ball of the foot roundhouse is supposed to land in the center.... And penalizes me for landing at an angle, exactly the way you are supposed to...

I don't need experience to see what is straight as opposed to bent, and this is straight...


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## dvcochran

InfiniteLoop said:


> This is coming from the guy who thinks a ball of the foot roundhouse is supposed to land in the center.... And penalizes me for landing at an angle, exactly the way you are supposed to...
> 
> I don't need experience to see what is straight as opposed to bent, and this is straight...


As usual, I have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Buka

InfiniteLoop said:


> What was the federation? I have seen TKD dojos that look exactly like Shotokan. And Shotokan does not look like TSD even though it came from Shotokan


I have no idea about what federation. I don't do federations.


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## InfiniteLoop

Buka said:


> I have no idea about what federation. I don't do federations.


Then it's meaningless to speculate


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## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> look any different from the stance height in TaeKwonDo?.....
> 
> 
> InfiniteLoop said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earl, since you like to invoke stance modifications as your go-to-argument...
Click to expand...

First and foremost I would not provide an opinion on TaeKwonDo stances since I am a Taekwon-Do   student.   Secondly it is a kicking video which may or may not be using traditional stances for whatever system it represents so it's   worthless for judging what may or may not be a traditional stance for that system.


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## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Your inaccurate recaps are getting tiresome. I never claimed that Chuck Norris joined any TKD labelled school in Korea.


Post 126, you state Chuck Norris is not wrong to state he was a TKD product.   If the reference was to his days in Korea, which the video reference was - yes, that would be wrong.    Understandably when doing a brief interview for the masses one might tend to explain things in a rather loose fashion.


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## Dirty Dog

InfiniteLoop said:


> Did I roundhouse kick you in the head in a past lifetime?


I doubt it, because I would only have allowed it if you used the ball of the foot.


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## Earl Weiss

InfiniteLoop said:


> Earl, since you like to invoke stance modifications as your go-to-argument...


Wrong again. You asked about  what defined a system. I gave an example of ONE element which was stances  and specifying SOME technical parameters that could be specified.   Other Elements could include Hand and Arm Techniques, foot and Leg Techniques,  Philosophy,   Patterns, Grappling Techniques   etc. etc,. etc.


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## InfiniteLoop

Earl Weiss said:


> Wrong again. You asked about  what defined a system. I gave an example of ONE element which was stances  and specifying SOME technical parameters that could be specified.   Other Elements could include Hand and Arm Techniques, foot and Leg Techniques,  Philosophy,   Patterns, Grappling Techniques   etc. etc,. etc.



An ice skater from Canada might have completely different rituals than a Russian but once out on the ice, they are both ice skaters. And patterns is basically rituals...


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## InfiniteLoop

Dirty Dog said:


> I doubt it, because I would only have allowed it if you used the ball of the foot.



I need a permit for ball of the foot.


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## Balrog

InfiniteLoop said:


> He trained under Choi for only 3 days... source: 05:04


And your point is what?  He learned the forms from Gen. Choi and taught them until he designed the Songahm style.


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## InfiniteLoop

Balrog said:


> And your point is what?  He learned the forms from Gen. Choi and taught them until he designed the Songahm style.



Choi is the one making the point: _how much can you learn in 3 days_


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