# Internal styles too complex 4 beginners?



## brothershaw (Dec 5, 2004)

This started from a different thread

 Do you feel the internal arts may be too complex for raw beginners in martial arts? THat a person with a prior background in something else would be able to benefit more, and pick up the martial concepts quicker although the body mechanics would have to be relearned?


----------



## Hammer Head (Dec 5, 2004)

Well, it all depends on why you want to learn an internal art. It will benefit you either way, but if you have some previous knowledge of another martial art you will probably learn faster.


----------



## clfsean (Dec 5, 2004)

Nah... it's just fine for beginners. The only difference is where some motions outwardly may feel & appear the same, the emphasis & focus of the techniques will be different.


Somebody with previous experience won't have a problem picking up & discerning the two two trains of thought (internal vs. external) but then again... a newbie just doing internal won't have any bad habits or previous training to get past to accomplish the goals of the internal training.


----------



## Buddy (Dec 5, 2004)

"Somebody with previous experience won't have a problem picking up & discerning the two two trains of thought (internal vs. external) but then again..."

Sorry, this is wrong. The way the body moves (shenfa) is entirely different between internal and external. Depending on their previous style they may have considerable difficulty in "picking it up". In fact MOST external people I have taught must be convinced (usually by some obvious physical means, i.e. hitting them in a way they have previously not experienced) that there is a difference that they want to learn. 
Cheers, 
Buddy


----------



## vampyre_rat (Dec 6, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> This started from a different thread
> 
> Do you feel the internal arts may be too complex for raw beginners in martial arts? THat a person with a prior background in something else would be able to benefit more, and pick up the martial concepts quicker although the body mechanics would have to be relearned?


Some people could do with knowing how to punch and kick properly, so that they can then be moulded to the correct form.  If you have absolutely no MA background and want to learn taiji primarily as a MA then you _may _need to learn how to punch properly so that you don't break your wrist the first time you have to do it.

It's definitely not too complex, but it might not be quick enough.  It takes time to learn the priciples, time that some people are too impatient to take.


----------



## clfsean (Dec 6, 2004)

Buddy said:
			
		

> "Somebody with previous experience won't have a problem picking up & discerning the two two trains of thought (internal vs. external) but then again..."
> 
> Sorry, this is wrong. The way the body moves (shenfa) is entirely different between internal and external. Depending on their previous style they may have considerable difficulty in "picking it up". In fact MOST external people I have taught must be convinced (usually by some obvious physical means, i.e. hitting them in a way they have previously not experienced) that there is a difference that they want to learn.
> Cheers,
> Buddy


Sorry it's not wrong. It's different for different people. When I learned the Xingyi 5 Roads, it wasn't that difficult to pick up because of my external background. Because (in your terms) "MOST external people" may not cotton the idea, does not make it universal or the final truth. 

Maybe I should've prefaced my comments with IMHO... so better late than never...


----------



## Buddy (Dec 6, 2004)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Sorry it's not wrong. It's different for different people. When I learned the Xingyi 5 Roads, it wasn't that difficult to pick up because of my external background. Because (in your terms) "MOST external people" may not cotton the idea, does not make it universal or the final truth.
> 
> Maybe I should've prefaced my comments with IMHO... so better late than never...


Sean,
I don't mean to be insulting but learning the movements of the wuxing (I think this is what you mean by 5 roads, I've never heard that term before) is simple. But learning how to use the body method required is quite tricky. Unless one is exposed to this, xingyi is just like any other external style. It isn't the movements that make IMA internal it's the body method. 
Buddy


----------



## 7starmantis (Dec 6, 2004)

Your right, the body movements are important, but what we are discussing is whether or not those body methods are too difficult for a beginner to learn. Personally I dont see how it could be. You begin slowly, learning the basics. You learn how to breathe, then relaxing techniques, then you learn to move, balance, etc. Those are extreme basics in taiji. Some may say, oh well you can get those in another system and then come to taiji, to them I ask why? Why spend the time in another system learning what you are learning anyway in taiji? If learning taiji is your goal, whats the point in learning somethingelse, stay with taiji. If I want to be a heart surgeon I dont start practicing on dentistry, I go straight to learning about the heart. Sure I have to pick up some basics in either situation, but wouldn't I rather pick up basics that are geared towards heart surgeons? OK, bad example, but its the same with taiji or any internal system, what is the point in learning something else and waisting all that time you could have been learning your system?

 7sm


----------



## clfsean (Dec 6, 2004)

Buddy... Wu Xing / 5 Roads... same thing. I used that reference for the peeps that maybe don't pracitice or study CMA/IMA.

I'm talking about pure physical motion. If you look back at the initial post where brothershaw said: 



> pick up the martial concepts quicker although the body mechanics would have to be relearned?


That's where my comments came in. I was never talking body mechanics. That's why my comments were worded that way. Outwardly a gung bo in external MA is the same as a gugn bo in internal MA. How you get there is different. That also led into my comment about a newbie not having any bad habits to break. They learn just one way & that's all the know.

As to my practice of Xingyi Quan Wu Xing... I've pretty much abandoned everything Northern in favor of Southern CMA. Easier on the body but with the directness of Xingyi.


----------



## Dronak (Dec 6, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> If learning taiji is your goal, whats the point in learning somethingelse, stay with taiji.



Well, I wanted to learn tai chi, but the teacher I was taking classes with taught kung fu first so I went along with it.  I suppose I could have refused or taken classes elsewhere, but I felt that he would teach tai chi well.  I wanted to have some exposure to the martial applications of it and didn't think I'd get them with other classes I was aware of at the time.  I also didn't think it would hurt to have some other training.  We were told that the style we were doing was typically the first one students in ancient China learned because it gives you a strong foundation to work from if you move into other styles later.  That seemed to be a good enough reason to me to go along with it and get some practice in the style.

Anyway, being the beginner that I am, I'm not sure I can really answer the question that well.  Both sides seem to have good points.  Learning an external art will probably give you more practice in punching and kicking techniques and how to do them properly.  Having some basics like this could help.  But if the body movement is so much different in internal arts, you have the potential for carrying the external movements into the internal movements, resulting in a bad habit that has to be broken when learning the internal art.  Someone who comes in without any prior experience won't have that problem.

I don't have much experience, but I suspect the main difficulty for a beginner doing an internal art first is dealing with the internal aspects, chi flow and trying to generate energy without pure, hard, physical force.  Some of that will probably be delayed a bit until you get down other basics, like the movement (being rooted and balanced in tai chi as the weight shifts from one foot to the other, for example), but they're still more subtle concepts.  You can't exactly show someone how to do these sorts of things, just explain as best you can and hope they can get it, so they're probably harder to grasp.  A good teacher can probably do more than I realize, but still.  An external art which is mainly hard, direct force is probably a little easier to understand the main concepts of.  I don't think this necessarily means that an external practicioner will pick up the internal aspects faster than a total newbie though.  So I'm not sure if there's a real advantage to either way, starting an internal style as a total newbie or coming into it after having some experience in external arts.  Every art should be able to stand on its own and teach you all you need to know, even if it's in different routes and methods, so like 7starmantis said, if you want to learn tai chi, why not just start with it and stick with it?


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Dec 6, 2004)

I think learning at the same time, or first, from an instructor who is knowledgable about the internal martial arts will complement the external training, or make it better.

So many beginners (myself included) flail around, using up their energy unwisely.

I don't think internal styles are too complex for beginners.  I think people who have trained in "external" styles may appreciate them more, once they get past the "you're not _*doing*_ anything!" group of people.
I think more beginners should take internal styles.


----------



## 7starmantis (Dec 6, 2004)

In my opinion this all comes down to the quality of instruction you can find or are receiving. If an internal system such as taiji is too difficult or doesn't teach basics like punching and kicking, I would venture to say the instruction isn't the quality you need. If you find good instruction with a teacher that is knowledgeable and has high skill, it shouldn't be a problem at all. The external versus internal argument is as old as CMA itself. In my experiences the advanced principles of the system I study seem to get closer and closer to internal principles, they are basically interconnected, so learning one might help the other, but also learning just one should be just as doable and easy. 

7sm


----------



## Blooming Lotus (Dec 6, 2004)

I'm a bit of a fan of crosstraining myself, both internal + external or sometimes different branches of either simultaeneously, but I think for a new learner just begining a foray into internal practice, it's probably an idea to give a little time soley to that, then outside of class drill your forms. Once you're comfortable with that, no doubt I'd then go back and re-integrate my external. For my $0.02 c worth , as an internal teacher of several yrs to beginners, as far as the rest is concerned, I think clfsean and 7 * have done a good job and explained it well.

Blooming Lotus


----------



## Buddy (Dec 6, 2004)

BL, You have no business in this conversation. Just go away.

Sean is right here. What he calls gung bo (gongbu-bow and arrow stance) is a forward stance, weight on the front leg back leg more or less straight. My background before learning IMA was other Chinese styles. Going from Bow step to bow step is crucial. ANd frankly I've seen external guys who simply can't do it well. I learned it (over and freaking over again) in Hongchia (Hung Ga Fu Hok) and Changquan.
External skills must be learned and any system worth their salt must teach them. So...are the IMA for beginners? They should be. I only teach one day a week. Most of my students are folks with a lot of experience in other arts. Some of them stay and learn and some of them think they already have and go. The ones that stay seem to think its worth their while. I'm happy to discuss but I don't have any investment in it.


----------



## 7starmantis (Dec 6, 2004)

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). This type of behavior will not be tolerated. Thank you. 

-Adam C
-MT Moderator-


----------



## Fumanchu (Dec 7, 2004)

Good question. Internal systems actually allow a persons natural body mechanics to respond better. It is far less jarring and hence healthy in the long run. Having said that, the coordination / atheletism of the higher level stuff is not easy. but then again it would be even more difficult for someone who does external kung fu to reach the same level of coodination in the same amount of time. As for self defence value, internal systems also do speed work, impact work and because the systems are not ridgid in their approach, they have better self defence value.

However, there are so called internal schools - by name only, which are little more than new age, relaxation parlors.  They don't do practical self defence training and the movements they do aren't challenging - just slow. Those I'm excluding in the above comment.

p.s. thanks 7* for your input.


----------



## 7starmantis (Dec 7, 2004)

Your welcome, and yes I agree with you as well. Internal systems are very much martial focused, but there are those schools and they exist in every system.

7sm


----------



## 7starmantis (Feb 5, 2005)

I dont know, I think that all systems have, or at least had at one point, both external and internal parts to them. I think that some systmes may have lost much of their external or internal principles throughout the years from incomplete training and such. Internal without external training is pretty moot as is external without internal in my opinion. 

7sm


----------



## East Winds (Feb 5, 2005)

7*,

Yes, I think you are right about external training being and essential part of the internal discpiplines. However, only to the extent of training flexibility or leg strength for instance. Muscular power, has no place in punching and kicking in the IMA's. The Taicheese people are only teaching half of the art when they teach only softness. Yin without Yang cannot exist.

Best wishes

Alistair Sutherland.


----------



## brothershaw (Feb 5, 2005)

The internal styles should be taught with some martial content ( hitting things, combinations, defensive footwork, self defense applications). 
An externalist( for the sake of arguement) can still get by and defend  himself based solely on the external stuff . An internal school if not based in reality is setting its students up for a rude awakening. 
Of course these are BROAD generalizations.  

With the internal stuff there is just so much to study and practice.


----------



## Trainwreck (Feb 5, 2005)

Indeed.  I once heard the analogy that learning an internal style is like filling up a swimming pool - one teaspoonful at a time.  It's slow and tedious, but when the pool is full, the person has so much to use.  

Besides, I had no prior martial arts experience before I did Tai Chi and I think that I've picked it up just fine.  Practice makes or breaks the student, so I try to spend as much time studying the internal arts as I usually spend on a physics class.


----------



## dmax999 (Feb 5, 2005)

A quote I once read is "Investing in learning Tai Chi is investing at losing in the beginning".  This is very profound.  

Everyone who starts Tai Chi fights worse then they before they started, until they begin to truly grasp the concepts of Tai Chi.

Too complex? No. Too difficult for most people to work through correctly? Probably.  It is not a style that everyone has the patience to learn.  However, I have yet to see anyone who keeps at it not make significant progress over time.  But I also believe only a very few are dedicated enough to truly gain great skill in it.


----------



## 7starmantis (Feb 5, 2005)

We aren't speaking specifically about tai chi here, but more "internal systems" as a whole.

7sm


----------



## Skankatron Ltd (Feb 12, 2005)

dmax999 said:
			
		

> A quote I once read is "Investing in learning Tai Chi is investing at losing in the beginning". This is very profound.
> 
> Everyone who starts Tai Chi fights worse then they before they started, until they begin to truly grasp the concepts of Tai Chi.
> 
> ...


----------



## brothershaw (Feb 12, 2005)

Good posts.
My main idea behind this thread was that often the time spent developing the internal aspects of martial arts leaves the martial aspects untrained. So in some cases the person may develop some internal aspects but not necessariliy the right tools or knowledge on how to use them martially. 
Someone who has trained in more martially based systems may have a better grasp of how to use the martial aspects.


----------



## dmax999 (Feb 12, 2005)

Skankatron,
It is good that you think you are grasping on to Tai Chi concepts early on.  Keep up that good attitude and you will progress quickly.

Reality is that at the beginning I believe it is impossible to fight effectively using the Tai Chi concepts.  Unless you have studied something similar before, such as Ba-gua or Wing-Chun Chi-Sau, it is not possible to have enough skill to use it effectively when you start.

The problem is you have to give up on strength and forcing power, which is impossible for a novice when someone else is punching at their face.  Only after gaining confidence in your practice after years will you be able to relax enough to do the manuvers properly while being puched and kicked at.

If you are better off with just a beginning of Tai Chi, you are misunderstanding its principles or you have very good quality fundamentals in another martial art that is being improved through Tai Chi.

The quote, by the way, is from Cheng Man-Ch'ing a direct student of Yang Ch'eng-fu.  He knew more about Tai Chi then I could ever hope to.


----------



## East Winds (Feb 13, 2005)

dmax999,

I agree with your summing up, and I think it is quite accurate. I always think of the "Invest in loss" phrase in terms of pushing hands. In the beginning we are either afraid of being pushed over, or our ego will not permit us to let the other person to "win". Therefore we tense up and push back using muscle power and body strength. If we continue to di this, we will never progress. In the beginning we should let it happen. If we get pushed over its OK. We "Invest in loss" by working out HOW our partner managed to push us over and try not to let it happen again. Sometimes it will take many hours to work out how to avoid being pushed over whilst still remaining relaxed and soft. This I believe is the true meaning of Invest in Loss.

Very best wishes


----------



## Skankatron Ltd (Feb 19, 2005)

"My main idea behind this thread was that often the time spent developing the internal aspects of martial arts leaves the martial aspects untrained. So in some cases the person may develop some internal aspects but not necessariliy the right tools or knowledge on how to use them martially.
Someone who has trained in more martially based systems may have a better grasp of how to use the martial aspects"

Funny thing about this. One of my masters learned in india and told us a story about how a whole bunch of people learned only non-martial applications of tai chi and then were one day told that it was a martial art and they became instant warriors. I'm not EXACTLY sure what he meant by instant warriors, but i think the idea behind the story is that it's not hard to transfer external to internal.

"The problem is you have to give up on strength and forcing power, which is impossible for a novice when someone else is punching at their face. Only after gaining confidence in your practice after years will you be able to relax enough to do the manuvers properly while being puched and kicked at."

Funny thing about this. My masters (I have two of them) told me I'm actually too relaxed, which apparently is very rare for males. one of my masters said he was like that, too, and things just have to be approached in a different manner. I yield too much n such in push-hands.

And if what East Winds says about investing in loss is true, then I totally agree. For 90% of people there is a large mental block which says "win! Hard! Harder!" which has to be overcome and can only really be done by giving up (for any of you existentialists out there, you know what i'm talkin about). I donno, maybe it's easier for me because I'm a more open person than most.


----------



## brothershaw (Feb 19, 2005)

Someone with prior training should have an easier understanding of the martial applications, plus some training on how to hit, punch kick, evasive footwork, what its like for someone to try to punch you , maybe some sparring. That stuff gives a good perspective to any martial artist.
They may have trouble with other things.

theory to application is a big bridge to cross even for the more external arts, especially if its against active resistance.


----------



## Shadowdh (Feb 28, 2005)

I find some amusement in questions like "is such and such to difficult/complex for beginners..." as when we first learn something are we not all beginners...?? 

But I get your point... and I would answer not really and it depends on a person finding a good teacher who can show/explain it well...


----------

