# Story I



## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 22, 2008)

The student and the master sat in the sand.  The student looked to his teacher and asked, 'Sensei, when I asked you how I could find love, you told me to learn to stop hating.  Why is that the answer?'.

The teacher did not remove his gaze from the ocean.  He replied, 'To obtain the summit, one must be at the bottom of the mountain'.


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2008)

As always Egg I love these stories.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 22, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> As always Egg I love these stories.


 
Thank you kindly. :asian:


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## thardey (Apr 22, 2008)

Is this like a Koan? Do we get to discuss it, or leave it as art?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 22, 2008)

thardey said:


> Is this like a Koan? Do we get to discuss it, or leave it as art?


 
You may do as you would like 

It was pointed out that my 'koans' are not really koans.  Agreeing with this assessment, I posted this as a story.  I feel it's quite discussable, actually


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## thardey (Apr 22, 2008)

Well then, let's get to it!



OnlyAnEgg said:


> The student and the master sat in the sand.  The student looked to his teacher and asked, 'Sensei, when I asked you how I could find love, you told me to learn to stop hating.  Why is that the answer?'.
> 
> The teacher did not remove his gaze from the ocean.  He replied, 'To obtain the summit, one must be at the bottom of the mountain'.



Since I consider hate to be a by-product of love, not the opposite, I would say that one has to understand love before one can master hate. In that case, the foundation of the mountain is love, with the goal (the summit) to be able to control and properly use your hate.


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## Lisa (Apr 22, 2008)

thardey said:


> Well then, let's get to it!
> 
> 
> 
> Since I consider hate to be a by-product of love, not the opposite, I would say that one has to understand love before one can master hate. In that case, the foundation of the mountain is love, with the goal (the summit) to be able to control and properly use your hate.



Interesting look at things.

I, however, see the mountain as all of the "hate" we have in life.  All our trial and tribulations.  All our lessons we need to learn to become that person that can love.  We climb it to reach the top.  The summit, to me, is the pinnacle of my life, the love and acceptance I have found with my partner, family and friends.


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## John Brewer (Apr 22, 2008)

Very interesting stuff  I consider hate to be the absence of Love. To me the mountain symbolizes the fact that sometimes we need to hit bottom before we realize what is really important. Thanks for posting it!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 22, 2008)

thardey said:


> Well then, let's get to it!
> 
> Since I consider hate to be a by-product of love, not the opposite, I would say that one has to understand love before one can master hate. In that case, the foundation of the mountain is love, with the goal (the summit) to be able to control and properly use your hate.


 
Quite an interesting interpretation!  I would not have percieved the story in this manner; but, that's the joy of it all: perception!



Lisa said:


> I, however, see the mountain as all of the "hate" we have in life. All our trial and tribulations. All our lessons we need to learn to become that person that can love. We climb it to reach the top. The summit, to me, is the pinnacle of my life, the love and acceptance I have found with my partner, family and friends.


 
Niiice...and a bit closer to my basis for the dialogue.



crane557 said:


> Very interesting stuff  I consider hate to be the absence of Love. To me the mountain symbolizes the fact that sometimes we need to hit bottom before we realize what is really important. Thanks for posting it!


 
And another nice spin on the tale.

As I mentioned, the beauty of these posts are seeing the various interpretations.  The stories are simple enough, much like a horoscope, to strike a chord in each of us and bring to mind something in our experiences that equates to or echoes from the story.

Thank you


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## thardey (Apr 22, 2008)

Crane557 said:


> Very interesting stuff  I consider hate to be the absence of Love. To me the mountain symbolizes the fact that sometimes we need to hit bottom before we realize what is really important. Thanks for posting it!



I know I have a unique perspective on this, but I consider apathy to be the absence of love. Hate is born out of the fear of losing/hurting what we love. Or, put another way, we hate what causes pain to loved ones. You can't truly know what hate is until you're faced with the destruction of a relationship with someone you truly love.

Most of the time, however, it is self-love that motivates hate (this is more common, since most people love themselves more than others). People are afraid of the pain that hurts the one they love most in their life (themselves), and attack the source of that pain, usually embodied in a specific person, or a type of person. Hate born out of selfishness, or love of self _alone_, is what causes great evil.


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## Nomad (Apr 22, 2008)

thardey said:


> I know I have a unique perspective on this, but I consider apathy to be the absence of love. Hate is born out of the fear of losing/hurting what we love. Or, put another way, we hate what causes pain to loved ones. You can't truly know what hate is until you're faced with the destruction of a relationship with someone you truly love.


 
Agreed.  The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.  Love and hate are closely linked, in a perverse fashion, which helps explain how love can easily turn to hate in breakups or divorces.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 22, 2008)

I find it interesting, this analysis of opposites.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 22, 2008)

Crane557 said:


> Very interesting stuff  I consider hate to be the absence of Love. To me the mountain symbolizes the fact that sometimes we need to hit bottom before we realize what is really important. Thanks for posting it!


 
Consider this thought from Taoism:

Without ugliness there can be no beauty
Without hate there can be no love

It is not so much a case of these being opposed but without one the other becomes unrecognisable.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 22, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Consider this thought from Taoism:
> 
> Without ugliness there can be no beauty
> Without hate there can be no love
> ...


 
I think opposition is the key here; but, not in the sense of definition, as Tao suggests.  It's more Pauli Exclusionesque.


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## marlon (Apr 22, 2008)

Nomad said:


> Agreed. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. Love and hate are closely linked, in a perverse fashion, which helps explain how love can easily turn to hate in breakups or divorces.


 

perhaps learn to let go of fear is closer to my thinking.  Indiffernce can be a kind of hate in itself..or would that be fear.

marlon


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## Live True (Apr 23, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Without ugliness there can be no beauty
> Without hate there can be no love
> It is not so much a case of these being opposed but without one the other becomes unrecognisable.


 
There are many tales of people who live in paradise and do not know it because they have nothing to compare it to.  I believe our trials and tribulations are lessons and bases for comparison.  The ugliness of a littered roadway helps me appreciate my modest garden and land all the more.

As for the wonderful tale, how can you reach the summit if you are already there (whether you know it or not)?  How do you know it is something to seek if it is not within your sight as a far reaching goal?
So you must be at the bottom of the mountain to see the destination as a worthy goal.  

I believe hate is a perversion of love, as it is usually very selfishly based.  So to truly love something for all it is, without judgement or requirements, requires a total abandonment of hate and selfish motives.  A noble aspiration, but attainable?


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## thardey (Apr 23, 2008)

Live True said:


> There are many tales of people who live in paradise and do not know it because they have nothing to compare it to.  I believe our trials and tribulations are lessons and bases for comparison.  The ugliness of a littered roadway helps me appreciate my modest garden and land all the more.
> 
> As for the wonderful tale, how can you reach the summit if you are already there (whether you know it or not)?  How do you know it is something to seek if it is not within your sight as a far reaching goal?
> So you must be at the bottom of the mountain to see the destination as a worthy goal.



And you have to be at the bottom of the _correct_ mountain. Starting at the base of one mountain will never help you reach the top of another.



> I believe hate is a perversion of love, as it is usually very selfishly based.  So to truly love something for all it is, without judgement or requirements, requires a total abandonment of hate and selfish motives.  A noble aspiration, but attainable?



I think this is very true when the hate is directed at other people.

But can you hate a disease? Emotionally we have a fear and sadness about disease, but by our actions, in trying to eliminate it, aren't we showing hate for it? I'll admit, I hate cancer, I hate Alzheimer's, I hate strokes, and the like. I hate the fear and poverty that drives people to kill each other over stuff. My heroes are the people who are working to destroy these things.

I hate lies, I hate selfishness, I hate mistrust. I hate those things that destroy relationships. I _absolutely hate_ abuse, whether sexual, physical, or emotional. They destroy people from the inside out.

I am quite full of hate, actually, now that I think of it. But God help me if I begin to aim that hate at people. Then I will become a part of the things I hate in this world.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 24, 2008)

Here's where the story came from:

My ex-wife (mother of my girls one) and I have ALWAYS disliked, distrusted and distempered each other.  It's been non-stop head-to-head since we separated.  Why is not important.

This constant confrontation has always worn me down and weighed heavily on my children, as well.

When my second wife (mother of none of my children, sworn enemy of wife 1) and I split up, i had time to consider my circumstances.  I could no longer live with this anger and hatred; so, I opted to simply forgive wife 1 for her transgressions.  I began to respond to her in non-confrontational ways.  Ultimately, the change in my perception caused a change in hers (over years, mind you).  I dissolved my hate, you see, and recieved, for my troubles, a degree of peace (or, in the parable's words, love).

It recently occurred to me that no amount of confrontation would've resolved our issues or changed our dynamic.  My choice to forgive cleared my part of the field, as it were.  I started over.  I was at the bottom of the mountain.

This is just the origin of the story.  It, in NO sense, minimizes the interpretations posted here.  In fact, it's only my interpretation.

I feel that the story represents a truth.  Discovering a truth does not provide ownership.


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## John Brewer (Apr 24, 2008)

So I guess you could say you have to have been at the top and the bottom of the mountain to realize there is a difference?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 24, 2008)

My idea was that, in order to achieve relative calm in the situation between my wife and I (the summit) I had to clear away and begin a new approach (the bottom).


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## thardey (Apr 24, 2008)

So in a sense you could say that you stopped hating your ex, and started hating the animosity between you two, and decided to fight it by actively forgiving her.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 24, 2008)

thardey said:


> So in a sense you could say that you stopped hating your ex, and started hating the animosity between you two, and decided to fight it by actively forgiving her.


 
How obscurely convoluted, incredibly wrong and notably correct.

Maybe this WAS a koan.


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## Live True (Apr 24, 2008)

thardey said:


> And you have to be at the bottom of the _correct_ mountain. Starting at the base of one mountain will never help you reach the top of another.[...]But can you hate a disease? Emotionally we have a fear and sadness about disease, but by our actions, in trying to eliminate it, aren't we showing hate for it? [...]I am quite full of hate, actually, now that I think of it. But God help me if I begin to aim that hate at people. Then I will become a part of the things I hate in this world.


 
Hmmm...I wouldn't characterize that as hate, I would say you despise these things and wish them elminated, but on a day to day basis, I would hope they don't take up a portion of each day.  What you are describing is a very passive, although passionate, reaction to the destruction caused by these things.  This emotion can creat positive change and motivation.  It's angry and passionate, but it's not....destructive.

I think of hate as a more active, destructive, and time consuming emotion.  It can eat you up and affect your other relationships and your life, much as Egg has stated in his explanation of the story's source.

Egg, my hat is off to you. Forgiveness and such a change in your reactions to another are very hard things to do.  I had to do the same with my ex or become a horribly mistrustful and angry person as well.  It was freeing to forgive the other person and move on.

Thank you for a wonderful story and some great discussion!


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## thardey (Apr 24, 2008)

Live True said:


> Hmmm...I wouldn't characterize that as hate, I would say you despise these things and wish them elminated, but on a day to day basis, I would hope they don't take up a portion of each day.  What you are describing is a very passive, although passionate, reaction to the destruction caused by these things.  This emotion can creat positive change and motivation.  It's angry and passionate, but it's not....destructive.



To me, hate is somewhere between a feeling and an action, like love. Emotions are just a part of the motivation. Both hate and love are nothing unless they produce a response.

Therefore, if I dislike these things to the point where I actively attack them, some of them in my day-to-day life, then what about it isn't hate?



> I think of hate as a more active, destructive, and time consuming emotion.  It can eat you up and affect your other relationships and your life, much as Egg has stated in his explanation of the story's source.


I usually consider that "bitterness" it's more of an emotion. It will eat you up inside. It's closely related to anger. "Do not let the sun go down on your anger." That is, don't let anger be part of your day-to-day life. When you get angry, deal with it, and drop it. 

I'm not angry at Disease, that would be pointless, and a waste of energy. But I am hoping with the very core of all that is good in me that someday it will be eliminated. I hate it, and I hate the effect it has on people. If we have to die, let it be of old age, or something dignified.

If you can focus hate on the appropriate things, without needing to be fueled by anger and/or bitterness, then it can be an appropriate and useful counterpart to love.




> Egg, my hat is off to you. Forgiveness and such a change in your reactions to another are very hard things to do.  I had to do the same with my ex or become a horribly mistrustful and angry person as well.  It was freeing to forgive the other person and move on.
> 
> Thank you for a wonderful story and some great discussion!


Same here.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 24, 2008)

It was meant to be a simple story; therefor, the concepts involved were simplistic.  It was not really meant to be an analysis of love or hate nor top or bottom.  I used those terms only as a guide to the disparity of emotions and location in circumstances.  While I did not hate my ex (after all, she gave me some years of joy and two wonderful daughters) nor was I searching to regain her love; the difference in the two emotions and placement in relationships was paramount to the story.

I am pleased, astounded and honored by all the reponses to this post.  MT has a beautifully insightful and intelligent membership. :asian:

I look forward to the next story.


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