# Teaching the student how to fight



## yak sao (Oct 15, 2020)

As we all know from recent threads in the WC forum, we can't fight our way out of a paper bag....but let's wallow in our delusion.

What do you do in your school to train the student in, say the first 12 -18 months to defend themselves?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2020)

yak sao said:


> As we all know from recent threads in the WC forum, we can't fight our way out of a paper bag....but let's wallow in our delusion.
> 
> What do you do in your school to train the student in, say the first 12 -18 months to defend themselves?



Honest question; Would someone become a better fighter more quickly if you removed form training and focused entirely on the striking, blocking, footwork, etc, and instituted heavy sparring practice? Like take the techniques of Wing Chun and apply them to a Boxing or Muay Thai approach.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 15, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Honest question; Would someone become a better fighter more quickly if you removed form training and focused entirely on the striking, blocking, footwork, etc, and instituted heavy sparring practice? Like take the techniques of Wing Chun and apply them to a Boxing or Muay Thai approach.




I think you don't necessarily have to throw out form.
Even boxing has "forms" practice in the way of shadow boxing, combination practice, etc.

The better approach is to attack this on multiple fronts....forms practice for development of generalized structure, sparring/ lat sau for using these learned structures and applying them against a resisting opponent, and chi sau to refine tactile responses from close in fighting.

Kind of a three legged stool...each one is needed.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2020)

yak sao said:


> I think you don't necessarily have to throw out form.
> Even boxing has "forms" practice in the way of shadow boxing, combination practice, etc.
> 
> The better approach is to attack this on multiple fronts....forms practice for development of generalized structure, sparring/ lat sau for using these learned structures and applying them against a resisting opponent, and chi sau to refine tactile responses from close in fighting.
> ...



To be fair, Shadowboxing and combination practice isn't a pre-arranged pattern where your movements are heavily scrutinized like a dance form. Shadowboxing and combination practice helps you develop your own sense of timing and rhythm, and you can pretty much do whatever you want.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2020)

Are you talking about WC class only?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2020)

yak sao said:


> I think you don't necessarily have to throw out form.


The form can be replaced by partner drills. Every day, you punch me 1,000 times, I use Tan Shou to block your punch 1,000 time.

You and I then get into the ring. You can only use straight punch on me. I can only use Tan Shou to block your punch. In 1 minute round, if your punch land on my body, you win that round. Otherwise, I win that round. Test this 15 round daily. I should have good Tan Shou skill after 3 months.

I then use Bong Shou to deal with your straight punch in the next 3 months. The WC training then continue ...


----------



## yak sao (Oct 15, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> To be fair, Shadowboxing and combination practice isn't a pre-arranged pattern where your movements are heavily scrutinized like a dance form. Shadowboxing and combination practice helps you develop your own sense of timing and rhythm, and you can pretty much do whatever you want.




I agree, but it's still a method of developing your technique away from the induced stress of a live opponent.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 15, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you talking about WC class only?



Mostly...


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2020)

IMO, the footwork should be taught on day one. Old Chinese saying said, "You may not find any opportunity to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find that opportunity to attack". 

So keep moving is the key.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 15, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The form can be replaced by partner drills. Every day, you punch me 1,000 times, I use Tan Shou to block your punch 1,000 time.
> 
> You and I then get into the ring. You can only use straight punch on me. I can only use Tan Shou to block your punch. In 1 minute round, if your punch land on my body, you win that round. Otherwise, I win that round. Test this 15 round daily. I should have good Tan Shou skill after 3 months.
> 
> I then use Bong Shou to deal with your straight punch in the next 3 months. The WC training then continue ...




The only part I disagree with here is where you say forms can be replaced.
I understand that people who train MMA, boxing, MT, etc.  don't practice forms in the strictest sense of the word, but they're a valuable component that gives the practitioner a place to go to refine skills.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 15, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> To be fair, Shadowboxing and combination practice isn't a pre-arranged pattern where your movements are heavily scrutinized like a dance form. Shadowboxing and combination practice helps you develop your own sense of timing and rhythm, and you can pretty much do whatever you want.




Also, WC forms are not forms in  the typical sense...while the movements are arranged for practice purposes, they are not fighting sequences.

We practice the movements in form but apply them freely.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> To be fair, Shadowboxing and combination practice isn't a pre-arranged pattern where your movements


But it can be.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the footwork should be taught on day one. Old Chinese saying said, "You may not find any opportunity to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find that opportunity to attack".
> 
> So keep moving is the key.


Footwork should be taught on Beginning day until Day you can't walk.  Things become so much easier and more effective with good footwork.  Good footwork comes in handy especially when someone is quicker than you.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 15, 2020)

We have 13 forms to BB, 1 form is taught per month. Monday is form night, with 2 man forms and applications, Thursday is combat night, with focus mitts, training on the 8 combos, various drills and semi full Contact sparring focusing on the combinations and applications from whatever form they are learning.

We have, 8 blocks, 8 strikes and 8 kicks

Example: Down block, straight punch, front kick. Both sides, we always do both sides.
Our blocks are really taught as strikes as there are no blocks in Kwon Bup.

There are 8 of these basic combos and sometimes they are mixed to be, along the lines of, combo 1 right side, Combo 2 left side.

The only padding used are your basic style of fingerless, kenpo gloves, most call them ufc gloves. If you choose to spar, you will most likely get bruised and achey. But if you are worried about getting hurt my students have a humorous saying, "this isn't ballet, but there's a dance school down the street."

Every other week we focus on 40 takedown techniques and what we call 9 sticks (basically escrima) and ground escapes..but our motto is why, wrestle when you can strike your way off the ground. They are also encouraged to spar people from other styles  and to bring them too the school.

We try to cover all of this within a 13 month - 24 month period, depending on the students ability.

But to be fair, I only take on 2-3 students at a time and the two I currently have, are almost done. I am not really sure what the other instructors do in Kwon Bup, all schools have a basic structure for training but, are independent.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2020)

yak sao said:


> while the movements are arranged for practice purposes, they are not fighting sequences.


I think fighting sequences are important.  I just don't think that they should be inflexible.   If I have a 4 hit combo then I should be able to use part or all of the sequences in that combo as need.  For example,   I train and use a 4 hit combo and a 5 hit combo.   Those two combo sets can be combined to create a fighting sequence.  But they are also flexible enough where I can do part of the 4 combo and part of the 5 combo.  and still come out good.  Sometimes people don't move in the direction you need them to move and when that happens you'll need to be able to flow into something else.

For me I know certain strikes will trigger a known behavior.  Sometimes it triggers only one behavior and other times it may trigger a series of behaviors.  Some are reliable triggers that happen with the majority of people, such as when something comes towards your face your body wants to close the eyes, because that's a natural response in an effort to protect the eyes.  Others are more specific to the individual person you are fighting against.  When you detect patterns of reactions you can ten create sequences.  If I punch high then your guard goes high.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2020)

yak sao said:


> What do you do in your school to train the student in, say the first 12 -18 months to defend themselves?


Here's what I do for the first year. At least once a week.
Note the only breaks that I give are 1 minute breaks for Cardio drills and  1 minute sparring rounds (round robin) where one person stays in and fights and gets a new opponent every minute. 5 people at the most  if you have more than five then you'll need need to run multiple sparring areas at the same time.

Footwork is treated as part of a warm up. then intensifies into fighting footwork.  Meaning that feet move at the pace that you'll move in a real fight. Once the heart is beating add multiple rounds of shadow boxing, kicks only shadow boxing, punch only shadow boxing, and then mix the 2.  The combos should be simple for the first couple of months until you can bring it up to fighting speed. Once you nail that then add a few more.  After the first hour of that stuff.  Sparring time. Start the round robin.  At this poit everyone should be juiced out this forces people to focus on technique more and forces them to dig deep. Sparring should always be about learning and not winning.  The intensity should be light enough so you can take risks   Follow this and increase the intesity every 6 months.

There's more to it than that, but that's about it in a nut shell.  By the end of month 6, you should have some really dependable techniques that you can use, and you would have been hit enough to know how to deploy it correctly.

I wouldn't do more than 2 days of sparring a week.  The body needs time to heal.  If you are pusshing yourself then the 1 day a week will be more than enough.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2020)

yak sao said:


> I agree, but it's still a method of developing your technique away from the induced stress of a live opponent.



Sure, but the difference is that many schools spend so much time perfecting forms, it takes away from the students perfecting their natural fighting ability. In reality, their natural fighting style is what should be developed. That's what shadowboxing and combination training does in Boxing.



yak sao said:


> Also, WC forms are not forms in  the typical sense...while the movements are arranged for practice purposes, they are not fighting sequences.
> 
> We practice the movements in form but apply them freely.



But would you say that they are absolutely necessary for the development of fighting ability?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> But it can be.



Sure, but it often isn't. If you're shadowboxing, you're practicing YOUR unique boxing style, unless your coach says otherwise. Even then, its never some crusty codified movement sets from hundreds of years ago, it's your coach telling you to drill a certain set of techniques while he/she watches.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> Also, WC forms are not forms in  the typical sense...while the movements are arranged for practice purposes, they are not fighting sequences.
> 
> We practice the movements in form but apply them freely.


I'll throw away (or replace) all those moves that don't have direct fighting application.

For example, in the WC Biu Jee form, there are moves that one freezes his body and arm, he just moves his palm up and down, or horizontally (at 0.11 - 0.30 in the following clip). I just don't see any value to train those moves.

Also I don't understand why during the 3rd WC form training stage, one still does "muscle group isolation", freeze the body, freeze the arm, and only move the palm. It violates the CMA "body unification/coordinate" principle.

Nice body unification/coordination can be seen at 1.31 - 1.35 (hand coordinate with foot, elbow coordinate with knee, shoulder coordinate with hip).


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Sure, but the difference is that many schools spend so much time perfecting forms, it takes away from the students perfecting their natural fighting ability.


Agree! Get fighting ability first. Map it into form later if you want to (for self polishing purpose).


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 16, 2020)

If I may wade in here with some thoughts, not being a CMA guy.

To develop fighting ability in the short term, forms (as much as I value them) will not be that helpful as a deeper understanding of the applications and basics is required to get the full benefit of the form's combat potential.

Stick to more generalized techniques that have, or can be adapted to, multiple uses and concentrate on those to get the most out of the least.

Concentrate training on simple, direct, techniques that are easy to execute and more quickly mastered, such as a kick to shin or knee followed by a jab.  Better to master a few moves than be OK in many.

I agree some basic footwork is essential to get off-line and set up angles of attack.

Work on developing a martial attitude and bearing.

Learn "dirty" moves as biting, finger breaking and eye pokes.

I would do all of the above if my student told me he needs effective self-defense and only has a year to learn. Of course, some of this can be taught to any student at the start to show them the art's combat potential and give them some sense of confidence and something ready to use from the get-go.

Now, by teaching in this fashion, other areas of the art (such as forms and the harder to master kicks) will be neglected and the student's advanced progress will be retarded a bit.  If the student has 2-3+ years, I would teach for the long game and use a more traditional teaching strategy.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

Ok. Here is a grappling situational drill we do for fighters.

So they are five minute rounds done at full resistance. Sort of.

So you get one guy versus a group of guys who just line up and hit him attack after attack

The first minute you take him down with double legs,

The second minute he takes you down.

Third minute you take him down off a wall.

Fourth munute he takes you down of a wall.

Fith minute we do clinch work. But Mabye you would be better off escaping a back bear hug.

Now the point of these drills isn't that the guy in the middle wins. He can get mauled nine times out of ten. So long as you don't stall. It is so he gets realistic feedback.

So the drills all have a win condition and a loose condition.

You could add striking if you wanted. But you have to be a bit careful. Normally for use just the team attacking the one guy strikes.

You can do this with most basic self defence positions. Pinned on the ground and you have to get up. That sort of thing.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

Otherwise shoot box sparring. Which is 16oz gloves sparring with thake downs, GNP,  and a limited time one the ground. Normally to a control position.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> The only part I disagree with here is where you say forms can be replaced.
> I understand that people who train MMA, boxing, MT, etc.  don't practice forms in the strictest sense of the word, but they're a valuable component that gives the practitioner a place to go to refine skills.



They don't really refine skills. Nobody fights like they do forms.

Forms just force the body to operate from uncomfortable positions so that you have a better ability to make your body do the movements required to fight

So we could look at portal movements and they look nothing like fighting. But if you can move well you can fight better.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'll throw away (or replace) all those moves that don't have direct fighting application.
> 
> For example, in the WC Biu Jee form, there are moves that one freezes his body and arm, he just moves his palm up and down, or horizontally (at 0.11 - 0.30 in the following clip). I just don't see any value to train those moves.
> 
> ...



These movements warm up the joints. 

If not properly warmed up, the ballistic movements of this form can jack up the wrists, elbows and shoulders.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> These movements warm up the joints.
> 
> If not properly warmed up, the ballistic movements of this form can jack up the wrists, elbows and shoulders.


well they do,but its more time efficient to warm up multiple joints at once, by doing full body movements

the value in this is what you dont see, ie you dont see movement in the rest of the body as yoyr frezing it, ie holding it in isometric contraction,  which warms and strenthen the muscles


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

Kata- simply means template and every method of training...starts with a template.

Kata- is just that a template, if you think Kata- was ever intended to be used in a fight, you have simply shown your ignorance concerning styles that use them. Regardless of how long you have trained in a style, if you do not understand that they are templates, blame your former crappy instructor, not the kata-.

If you have never trained in kata, and say they are useless..well that just makes you appear to be a know it all and your opinion, doesn't really amount to much, if anything at all.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Kata- simply means template and every method of training...starts with a template.
> 
> Kata- is just that a template, if you think Kata- was ever intended to be used in a fight, you have simply shown your ignorance concerning styles that use them. Regardless of how long you have trained in a style, if you do not understand that they are templates, blame your former crappy instructor, not the kata-.
> 
> If you have never trained in kata, and say they are useless..well that just makes you appear to be a know it all and your opinion, doesn't really amount to much, if anything at all.



Uh, if Kata is a template for fighting, yet is never intended to be used for fighting, then it isn't a template for fighting.

In short, what you just said is a contradiction....


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, if Kata is a template for fighting, yet is never intended to be used for fighting, then it isn't a template for fighting.
> 
> In short, what you just said is a contradiction....


its a template of the moves to be used in fighting

you dont fight in the order that the moves appear in the kata., coz that would be silly


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> its a template of the moves to be used in fighting
> 
> you dont fight in the order that the moves appear in the kata., coz that would be silly



Then what's the point of learning the moves in a prearranged kata? Why not remove the kata and just teach the techniques and their application? In the span of time I'm wasting moving around in a kata, you could just be teaching me the techniques directly, and why I'm learning those techniques.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> If I may wade in here with some thoughts, not being a CMA guy.
> 
> To develop fighting ability in the short term, forms (as much as I value them) will not be that helpful as a deeper understanding of the applications and basics is required to get the full benefit of the form's combat potential.
> 
> ...


I think this is very well said.

My Sifu has said that if all we wanted was to learn to fight quickly, he could teach us that in the space of a year and it would include no forms.

I’ve been thinking about that, and how I might use that approach in my own teaching, if I can get a training group going in my area.  I might take the first six months to a year and just do what you describe above.  Work the hell out of the foundation and fundamental techniques and teach them how to get a lot of mileage from a small curriculum.  Later I would bring in the forms that would solidify the methodology and then broaden their view of what is possible.

I think it’s an interesting idea.  I also suspect that it may be more in line with traditional teaching methods.  I suspect that forms are not meant to be taught early in the process and are better used when they are brought in later.  But in the modern era, people want the “interesting” stuff right away, or they lose interest.  So forms are introduced early.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Then what's the point of learning the moves in a prearranged kata? Why not remove the kata and just teach the techniques and their application? In the span of time I'm wasting moving around in a kata, you could just be teaching me the techniques directly, and why I'm learning those techniques.


differebt kata have different orders,, the idea is to avoid repeating and getting all the moves in

you should have learnt the technques before you learn the kata.
the kata should teach you to transition from one to the next

im not saying that kata is the bestway to do this, just its not as pointless as you say.

we spend 10mins on kata in a 2 hour class, i tolerate it rather than enjoy

the big problem comes when you use kata as the main test of ability in grading,  then it takes on an importance it doesnt deserve


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Then what's the point of learning the moves in a prearranged kata? Why not remove the kata and just teach the techniques and their application? In the span of time I'm wasting moving around in a kata, you could just be teaching me the techniques directly, and why I'm learning those techniques.



A logical question.  The core of the kata _are_ the techniques and applications that have combat value.  You seem to agree with this premise, as do I.  So, why not just teach those and forget about putting them into a sequenced routine?  Two major reasons:

First, by having a memorized routine, you have a tool to practice and remember and teach all those techniques and applications.  There were not always videos and books to refer to.

Next, one is not "wasting time moving around in a kata."  Movement is key in combat, especially transitioning from one stance to another.  Often, it is this transitioning that allows a technique to be effective. 

Then, there are a host of secondary benefits to kata:  Increased body awareness, development of agility, posture and balance, mental discipline, proper breathing (especially in the longer kata,) and so on.

The techniques and *applications* are the reason kata exists.  The lack of emphasis of realistic combat applications is what has rendered kata to become less relevant over the past decades as the form became the main focus over function.  Once this trend is reversed, kata becomes a more practical and useful activity.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> you should have learnt the technques before you learn the kata.


This is how it was originally taught - training in the techniques and applications_ with a partner_.  The kata provided for solo practice and a template for exploring variations of applications.


----------



## Highlander (Oct 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> They don't really refine skills. Nobody fights like they do forms.
> 
> Forms just force the body to operate from uncomfortable positions so that you have a better ability to make your body do the movements required to fight
> 
> So we could look at portal movements and they look nothing like fighting. But if you can move well you can fight better.


The WC forms are set up a bit different. They're not about fighting or moving but more about angles and concepts. So they help you refine the smaller movements. As its been stated not great for learning to fight. But that's not what they're for


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'll throw away (or replace) all those moves that don't have direct fighting application.


definitely this and especially important when it comes to TMA since not everything from a form is about fighting.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 16, 2020)

Highlander said:


> The WC forms are set up a bit different. They're not about fighting or moving but more about angles and concepts. So they help you refine the smaller movements. So its been stated not great for learning to fight. But that's not what they're for


Yeah, from my limited experience in WC I view the forms as a series of specialized exercises for isolating and drilling certain aspects of structure and body mechanics which are important in WC. Definitely not a template for actually fighting.


----------



## Highlander (Oct 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> They don't really refine skills. Nobody fights like they do forms.
> 
> Forms just force the body to operate from uncomfortable positions so that you have a better ability to make your body do the movements required to fight
> 
> So we could look at portal movements and they look nothing like fighting. But if you can move well you can fight better.


But also... I need to do what he does in that video.... cause damn that guy is RIPPED


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Highlander said:


> The WC forms are set up a bit different. They're not about fighting or moving but more about angles and concepts. So they help you refine the smaller movements. So its been stated not great for learning to fight. But that's not what they're for


That would make learning to fight more difficult.  If all you do is practice movement and concepts.  You aren't actually doing movement as it relates to carrying out  an applications.  As you describe it, that makes it sound as  if it's just an exercise.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> A logical question.  The core of the kata _are_ the techniques and applications that have combat value.  You seem to agree with this premise, as do I.  So, why not just teach those and forget about putting them into a sequenced routine?  Two major reasons:
> 
> First, by having a memorized routine, you have a tool to practice and remember and teach all those techniques and applications.  There were not always videos and books to refer to.
> 
> ...



I would be fine with that answer if we didn't have other styles of martial arts that are fully capable of translating a large body of techniques without the use of kata.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> if you think Kata- was ever intended to be used in a fight, you have simply shown your ignorance concerning styles that use them.


 Not to be a downer. My forms can be used in fighting.  They are actually a collection of single and combination strikes.  The movements are the same movements that you would use in a fighting    We do have parts like standing in a horse stance a certain way that we would never do in the fight, but the strike that is done while standing could easily be used in a fight.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I would be fine with that answer if we didn't have other styles of martial arts that are fully capable of translating a large body of techniques without the use of kata.


lots of sports do a very similar thing,
soccer for instances has you weaving in and out of cones before kicking the ball in an empty net

you could ask what value that gives when faced with defenders some what more mobile than a cone and a goal keeper.

but highly skill profesional teams continue to do this and otherthings like this


----------



## Highlander (Oct 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That would make learning to fight more difficult.  If all you do is practice movement and concepts.  You aren't actually doing movement as it relates to carrying out  an applications.  As you describe it, that makes it sound as  if it's just an exercise.


Thats why you don't train forms and only forms its just one training tool


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> My Sifu has said that if all we wanted was to learn to fight quickly, he could teach us that in the space of a year and it would include no forms.


Agree with you 100% there.

When I was 11, my brother in law taught me an open hand form Bagua Chuan and a staff form Pi Shou Gan. One time I got into a fight and I didn't know how to use information out of my form. After my brother in law found out that I was interested in fighting, he stopped teaching me any more forms. He asked me to do "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years.

After that 3 years of 1 step 3 punches training, when I joined in my senior high school long fist class, I could beat up most of my long fist brothers in sparring by using my 1 step 3 punches training experience. Every time when I punched, it was always 3 punches toward my opponent's face from all different direction. My favor 1 step 3 punches are right jab, left cross, right hook, and right jab, left hook, right hook.

If you plan a 10 years program for your students, all teaching methods will be equal and be able to reach to the same goal.

The OP is interested in how to train WC fighters within 12-18 months. IMO, in order to achieve that goal, form training can be postponed. Students should spend all their training time in sparring, sparring, and still sparring.

I do believe a WC student can develop this skill within 18 months.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> The only part I disagree with here is where you say forms can be replaced.


I assume you are talking about how to train WC fighters within 18 months. After that 18 months, you can teach them all the forms that you want to teach.

I don't believe spartan warriors have solo form training in their program.


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> if you removed form training



If memory serves...there are one or two branches of WC that do not have the three 'hand' forms...


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the footwork should be taught on day one



I agree. In my WC upbringing...it was. We were not told what we were doing (i.e. from where in the forms or system it came from)...but in our first week/month we were learning and practicing a huge amount of 2nd form footwork, footwork from the pole form, and most importantly the knife-specific footwork. Every class we did this, regardless of whether one was a new student or an advanced student.


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> to BB



What is BB?


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just don't see any value to train those moves.



That's because they are not "moves". They are simply imparting an idea while at the same time conditioning the tendons.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> lots of sports do a very similar thing,
> soccer for instances has you weaving in and out of cones before kicking the ball in an empty net
> 
> you could ask what value that gives when faced with defenders some what more mobile than a cone and a goal keeper.
> ...



That's a drill, not a pre-arranged pattern.


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Map it into form later if you want



This 'mapping' to the forms is important to some, not important to others. But generally I'd agree that fighting skill should take priority.


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 16, 2020)

As has been stated: the forms in WC are not akin to a typical "kata" as seen in other Asian martial arts. I remember learning dozens of forms in other Japanese and Korean martials arts in my youth. Each one was emphasized as a fighting template or kata. When I found WC, I was at first amazed to hear that the forms were not "fighting" forms.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> That's a drill, not a pre-arranged pattern.


its a drill in a prearranged pattern, , which is my point about prearranged patterns being common in drills for sport

nb we dont tend to use the term drill over here, to militaristic,  it just training


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> When I found WC, I was at first amazed to hear that the forms were not "fighting" forms.


It's difficult to apply kill 2 birds with 1 rock approach here.

When I run, I punch at the same time. I also hold weight in both hands for weight training. This way I can kill 3 birds with 1 stone.

Every time when I do whole body warm up, it takes me about 20 minutes. I always feel guilty and think I should use that time to train more fighting related drills. I don't like to use 1 rock just to kill 1 bird.

One time when I visited China, I met a 86 years old man who did long fist form with palm moving up and down. I asked him about the fighting application. He was pretty mad and refused to answered my question. I'm very allergic to any move in the form that's not fighting related.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> its a drill in a prearranged pattern, , which is my point about prearranged patterns being common in drills for sport
> 
> nb we dont tend to use the term drill over here, to militaristic,  it just training



Yeah, it's not a pre-arranged pattern. Prearranged means every step is pre-determined and has to be emulated as close to the standard as possible. Exactly like a choreographed dance routine.

Running through cones and kicking a ball at the end is nothing like that.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, it's not a pre-arranged pattern. Prearranged means every step is pre-determined and has to be emulated as close to the standard as possible. Exactly like a choreographed dance routine.
> 
> Running through cones and kicking a ball at the end is nothing like that.


, yes its a prearanged patern, you move your body left and use the right foot to move the ball, then right with the left foot repeat for 12 cones then use you right foot to kick the ball in the net

next go you move your body right then left etal then use your left foot to kick the ball into the net

how is that not a pre arranged pattern, its almost the hoki koki


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> , yes its a prearanged patern, you move your body left and use the right foot to move the ball, then right with the left foot repeat for 12 cones then use you right foot to kick the ball in the net
> 
> next go you move your body right then left etal then use your left foot to kick the ball into the net
> 
> how is that not a pre arranged pattern, its almost the hoki koki



Stuff like this;






Are called drills.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> , yes its a prearanged patern, you move your body left and use the right foot to move the ball, then right with the left foot repeat for 12 cones then use you right foot to kick the ball in the net
> 
> next go you move your body right then left etal then use your left foot to kick the ball into the net
> 
> how is that not a pre arranged pattern, its almost the hoki koki



Yeah but there is a direct link to micro movements and timing needed to control the ball. Kata does not have that link. If i kick the ball wrong it goes wrong. If I kata wrong someone has to tell me or I would never know. 

These comparisons are quite often not accurate representations of each other.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but there is a direct link to micro movements and timing needed to control the ball. Kata does not have that link. If i kick the ball wrong it goes wrong. If I kata wrong someone has to tell me or I would never know.
> 
> These comparisons are quite often not accurate representations of each other.


when i do kata wrong( as i often do) it often very evident as i kick someone or walk into a wall or at the very least am facing the wrong way

thats if you allow that you can do it wrong,  which id contest


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Stuff like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


they maybe in America,  not so often here,


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I assume you are talking about how to train WC fighters within 18 months. After that 18 months, you can teach them all the forms that you want to teach.
> 
> I don't believe spartan warriors have solo form training in their program.



I'd be willing to bet they took a given technique and worked the hell out of it...both solo and with partner training and ultimately on the battlfield.

That solo training is form training.
I think that might be where we're having a disconnect.

WC forms are not like other MA forms.
Having had pretty extensive forms training in another CMA pre WC,  I know this to be true.

Other systems forms are the encyclopedias for that given system.
WC forms are more akin to a dictionary, or as I like to put it, a list of things to practice.
Running through the Siu Nim Tao for example, is not practicing the form.
It's simply going through the list of what to practice.

To truly practice SNT or any WC form, it's better to take a given movement and practice it solo to work the gross kinks out of it, practice drills with a partner to further refine it, then apply it in sparring.
Then you put that movement back on the shelf and pull out the next one and wash-rinse-repeat.


----------



## Highlander (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One time when I visited China, I met a 86 years old man who did long fist form with palm moving up and down. I asked him about the fighting application. He was pretty mad and refused to answered my question. I'm very allergic to any move in the form that's not fighting related.


Seems like a pretty narrow view for someone training TMA


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! Get fighting ability first. Map it into form later if you want to (for self polishing purpose).



My wing tsun training has been under the same lineage but 2 different instructors with 2 different approaches.
My first instructor for 10 years was very much a fighter and that was the focus of the training, but we still did form work.
Then my next 10 years was with someone who had been a fightet when younger but his approach by the time I made his acquaintance had changed and was more about refinement.

After being under my second teacher for 10 years it has taken me a while to find my way back to the approach of my first teacher.

My new approach is to basically follow the model of my own experience...fight first then refine along the way.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Highlander said:


> Seems like a pretty narrow view for someone training TMA



  CMA  have a saying for the fancy forms guys who can't fight...

_Flowery hands and embroidery fists.

_


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.



Yeah, I picked up on that.

The difference in this thread is there is some great feedback and honest discussion going on............ 
so far


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> CMA  have a saying for the fancy forms guys who can't fight...
> 
> _Flowery hands and embroidery fists.
> _


The day when you start to collect gold metals in MA form competition tournament, the day that your fighting life is over. Your life will take a complete different path after that.

If in your form, you have a left arm move like this, what application will you explain to your students? Left hand reach to your left pocket, grab a knife, and throw at your opponent? You may also say you just try to loose your left shoulder joint.

Will you just change it into an upward block even if it may not look as pretty as the original move?

After this many years, I still cannot figure out any MA application for the last left arm movement in the following clip.

This is why I'm allergic to non-fighting move in a form (it looks very cool though).


----------



## Highlander (Oct 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.


Haha yeah I caught that too. But there was a good point made in that thread. If you click through the active topics you might not even realize what sub forum the thread is from


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 16, 2020)

I see a range of opinions here regarding forms in some MA systems and not others. Most of them IMO are valid on both sides as it depends on the system and how that system developed.  Boxing, MMA, wrestling and some modern "karate" systems developed as a sport, open to all, with the techniques "open source."

Most kung fu and karate systems began not as a sport.  The techniques were not open source, but guarded, proprietary, secrets held close within the style.  Practice was done away from outside, prying eyes. This is why moves in many kung fu styles have such poetic names, such as Floating leaf, Dragon's mouth, Returning gift, or whatever - you get the idea.  Why?

This "code" referred to specific techniques and was known only to the practitioners of that particular style, thus keeping that system's style of fighting from becoming known to the public.  Students were sworn to secrecy.  May sound silly to us, today in the information age, but 200, 300, years ago it was a big deal.  Their forms seemed abstract (dancelike) to the outsider as it was hard to discern the application of the moves.  It was purposely designed this way so the practitioners could practice (they knew what the moves really meant) without revealing the meaning to those outside their style.

In Okinawa, they didn't even have names for many of the moves, poetic or otherwise.  It was just "do this" if someone tries to grab your shoulder, and "do that" if they have their lead leg extended too far.  The application was shown personally by the master to his students.  So kata was one way to categorize these moves.  It was only after karate was taught publicly to large numbers that the need for an easily understood lexicon arose.

So some systems have full long forms, some have short series of moves, some have prearranged drills, some don't.  Every sport, every MA, has its own way of training.  In most all cases, there is a reason they train that way that works for what that art is trying to accomplish, based on how it developed. 

No need to try to pick each art apart based on your own point of view.  Even I have some personal faults and do things that seem counter-productive to my goals, but my wife loves me just the same.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> when i do kata wrong( as i often do) it often very evident as i kick someone or walk into a wall or at the very least am facing the wrong way
> 
> thats if you allow that you can do it wrong,  which id contest



Yeah but you compare that to being able to move a ball with your foot in a direction of your choosing. Which is pretty fundamental to soccer. 

Being able to perform kata isn't fundamental to fighting.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.



Are most of the respondents fighters or train fighters?

Because that would be the other issue of relevance as well.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you compare that to being able to move a ball with your foot in a direction of your choosing. Which is pretty fundamental to soccer.
> 
> Being able to perform kata isn't fundamental to fighting.


that wasn't the point at issue

what was, is pre sequenced drills are common through out sport

if you want to contest that go ahead


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> that wasn't the point at issue
> 
> what was, is pre sequenced drills are common through out sport
> 
> if you want to contest that go ahead



The contest is you can't rate one drill by the effectiveness of another.

So yes you are right that there are drills in sport. But if they are drills that produce different results then it doesn't matter.

You can't put kata and ball handling drills as doing anywhere near the same thing.

So "a lot of sports do a similar thing" something something soccer.

No. Soccer does not do a similar thing.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The contest is you can't rate one drill by the effectiveness of another.
> 
> So yes you are right that there are drills in sport. But if they are drills that produce different results then it doesn't matter.
> 
> You can't put kata and ball handling drills as doing anywhere near the same thing.


well i can if i want

but, the point in question was do other sports do pre sequence drill and even you admit they do

so thats that discussion over


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> well i can if i want
> 
> but, the point in question was do other sports do pre sequence drill and even you admit they do
> 
> so thats that discussion over



Well yeah. Competition ballroom dancing would be an example.

So wing chun and ballroom have similar training methods.


----------



## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Well yeah. Competition ballroom dancing would be an example.
> 
> So wing chun and ballroom have similar training methods.


i keep telling you the discussions over, ive prove my point, im not sure why your harassing me on unrelated topics


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> i keep telling you the discussions over, ive prove my point, im not sure why your harnessing me on unrelated topics



You know who also doesn't have harnesses?

Ballroom dancing. 

Basically the same thing.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not to be a downer. My forms can be used in fighting.  They are actually a collection of single and combination strikes.  The movements are the same movements that you would use in a fighting    We do have parts like standing in a horse stance a certain way that we would never do in the fight, but the strike that is done while standing could easily be used in a fight.


Same with Karate kata, it is the individual movements that are used, not the step by step sequence. It is well known that Itosu designed the Katas from individual techniques paired together in order for his students to remember the actual self defense techniques.

The entire Kata in sequence being used in an actual combat situation, is simply not the purpose of Kata. To think otherwise, is just a lack of knowledge.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> What is BB?


Black belt, in our system it means you have an understanding of the basics. It basically means that you have the basic, basics down.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, if Kata is a template for fighting, yet is never intended to be used for fighting, then it isn't a template for fighting.
> 
> In short, what you just said is a contradiction....


It is a template for techniques, used for fighting. Think about the various self defense techniques, and then put them in order, however you want, if you repeat the same techniques, the same way...you are using a template...or a kata. If you teach certain combinations of moves, and you rely on that sequence, you are basically doing Kata. IMO.

The word "Kata" translates to Template.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

First move of Pinan 1 or 2, it varies depending on the school.

It's a step to the left, down block, step forward punch, but it's not a down block.

A ruffin (as itosu states) grabs your right wrist, you raise the left up by you right side, slide your arm down while stepping back, and breaking the ruffins hold.

The step back, cause the ruffin to do two things, be pulled towards you and react by pulling back, then you smash the wrist or break the grip and cause him to release.

The movements are designed, to defend against muggers or attackers that put their hands on you. It really is simple if you stop and think about the individual motions. Not the kata- as a whole.

I think this is where those that denounce kata, are lacking in experience and the actual knowledge of kata. But, I am not surprised, as most systems gave up on applications in the 60's 70's and 80's.

My original school, gave them up in the late 80's and focused more are competition.

Those who do Kata, have you ever asked yourself why the kata, if ever, rarely starts with a strike? You really just need to think about it.

Now when you do Kata, let some one grab your wrist or wherever, and then try the INDIVIDUAL movements from the Kata.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> It is a template for techniques, used for fighting. Think about the various self defense techniques, and then put them in order, however you want, if you repeat the same techniques, the same way...you are using a template...or a kata. If you teach certain combinations of moves, and you rely on that sequence, you are basically doing Kata. IMO.
> 
> The word "Kata" translates to Template.



Okay, I have never seen anyone use those techniques in a fighting format in the way they're expressed by kata. In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata. So if the end result of all of that kata practice is ending up looking like a kick boxer, why not just train the way kick boxers do and enhance your fighting ability?


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, I have never seen anyone use those techniques in a fighting format in the way they're expressed by kata. In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata. So if the end result of all of that kata practice is ending up looking like a kick boxer, why not just train the way kick boxers do and enhance your fighting ability?


Why would you? Those are sport, and as stated earlier, it was never meant for sport.

Do you actually believe that when someone fights, they look exactly as they do when they train. Mauy Tai, has some sort of dancing to show what school they represent, they don't fight that way.

You seem to believe that kata is for fighting, it's not. Have you seen a kick in kata be used in a fight, have you seen a punch from kata, used in a fight. Basically, you are saying kicking and punching are useless, because it's in Kata.

This doesn't make any sense, I have never once seen BJJ in a fight...so it must be bogus training in it. Sure, I have seen it on YouTube in competition, but not used in reality, so therefore it must not work.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

Or for that matter, a punching bag being used for training, I never see them use that in a fight. Speed bag, nope never seen it used.

Sarcasm


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Why would you? Those are sport, and as stated earlier, it was never meant for sport.
> 
> Do you actually believe that when someone fights, they look exactly as they do when they train. Mauy Tai, has some sort of dancing to show what school they represent, they don't fight that way.
> 
> ...



Yes. Sports fighters fight like they train. Because what they train works.

It is not the case where years of preparation go out the window just because someone gets their first full speed punch.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you compare that to being able to move a ball with your foot in a direction of your choosing. Which is pretty fundamental to soccer.
> 
> Being able to perform kata isn't fundamental to fighting.


No, not explicitly but it can refine the hell out of it.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, I have never seen anyone use those techniques in a fighting format in the way they're expressed by kata. In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata. So if the end result of all of that kata practice is ending up looking like a kick boxer, why not just train the way kick boxers do and enhance your fighting ability?




This is going back to my pre WC days, but what the heck, no one else here is a WC guy so I'll fit right in. 
 I studied another style of CMA for 14 years before I took up WC.
This was the 80s when tournaments were still a pretty big deal.

My teachers began training in the late 60s when tournaments were huge, and as such, our fighting very much  had a tournament look to it.

When I became an instructor I began really emphasizing applications from forms and we did a lot of drills to instill this in the students.

Over time my students started to move differently and fight differently from our sister schools.
It no longer looked like tournament fighting...there were throws, grabs, locks, numerous types of sweeps, elbows and knees plus more varied kicks and hand techniques.

The forms were not the focus but the jumping off point.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Why would you? Those are sport, and as stated earlier, it was never meant for sport.



I'm not talking about sport, I'm talking about when they're fighting in class (sparring) and supposedly applying their techniques. They look no different than kick boxers.



> Do you actually believe that when someone fights, they look exactly as they do when they train. Mauy Tai, has some sort of dancing to show what school they represent, they don't fight that way.



Muay Thai practitioners don't spend 50% of their training time doing that dance either. Muay Thai practitioners spend the majority of their time drilling techniques and sparring each other. And yes, when they fight they look exactly like they train.



> You seem to believe that kata is for fighting, it's not. Have you seen a kick in kata be used in a fight, have you seen a punch from kata, used in a fight. Basically, you are saying kicking and punching are useless, because it's in Kata.



Where did I say kicks and punches are useless? In karate you don't learn kicks and punches from kata alone, you also drill them. In truth, when I sparred I defaulted to the techniques I drilled, not the techniques I was supposedly doing in kata.



> This doesn't make any sense, I have never once seen BJJ in a fight...so it must be bogus training in it. Sure, I have seen it on YouTube in competition, but not used in reality, so therefore it must not work.








Enjoy. If you need more, let me know.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> You seem to believe that kata is for fighting, it's not.


The following clip proves that some forms are designed exactly for fighting.

Don't want to turn this thread into non-WC thread.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> This is going back to my pre WC days, but what the heck, no one else here is a WC guy so I'll fit right in.
> I studied another style of CMA for 14 years before I took up WC.
> This was the 80s when tournaments were still a pretty big deal.
> 
> ...



What are your thoughts on this;


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.


A little diversity is good, especially when training how to fight.  Maybe someone's training methods will help the OP find what he's looking for or give a realistic idea of how to find the answer.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yes. Sports fighters fight like they train. Because what they train works.
> 
> It is not the case where years of preparation go out the window just because someone gets their first full speed punch.


I wouldn't know, I have never seen a sport fighter in an actual fight, so personally. I would have to say your wrong.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The following clip proves that some forms are designed exactly for fighting.
> 
> Don't want to turn this thread into non-WC thread.


We have two man forms, that related to the forms, those, in karate are designed for a fight. Those are the fighting forms.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> In karate you don't learn kicks and punches from kata alone


Bingo, what makes you think that isn't the case with the rest of the movements.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> This is going back to my pre WC days, but what the heck, no one else here is a WC guy so I'll fit right in.
> I studied another style of CMA for 14 years before I took up WC.
> This was the 80s when tournaments were still a pretty big deal.
> 
> ...


Really, this is how I was taught from the get go, and then it changed to more of a kickboxing style of sparring. The joy of combat can kill techniques.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> What are your thoughts on this;



Well, you got to give them credit for trying....but that's the thing, I think they're trying too hard to look the part instead of letting the body move naturally.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Really, this is how I was taught from the get go, and then it changed to more of a kickboxing style of sparring. The joy of combat can kill techniques.



Yeah, everone wants to use their high percentage moves instead of venturing out into unchartered waters.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> What do you do in your school to train the student in, say the first 12 -18 months to defend themselves?


I had to deal with this issue many many years ago.

When I was young, I had a life threaten situation. I started to train how to use my dagger and how to throw my dagger (firearm was not available in Taiwan), I always carried 3 daggers with me. If I throw 2, I still have 1. In that period of time, I stopped all my solo form training. But I did train fast running.

Only after one has to face a life threaten situation, he may not notice what MA training is important, and what MA training is not that important.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The day when you start to collect gold metals in MA form competition tournament, the day that your fighting life is over. Your life will take a complete different path after that.
> 
> If in your form, you have a left arm move like this, what application will you explain to your students? Left hand reach to your left pocket, grab a knife, and throw at your opponent? You may also say you just try to loose your left shoulder joint.
> 
> ...


so I was originally going to make some guess, but decided that I try the movement first.  It's been a long time since I've felt that munch disconnection of body movement.  I train a similar application that is use to knock away an attempted grab on the hips.  The downward motion smacks the grabbing arm out of the way while you pull your front leg back which he doesn't do.  The arm doesn't go over the head in the technique that I train.  From a fighting perspective, if the arm sweeps downward like that then I'm thinking a redirect of a kick or a grab attempt.  But after that, there is no need to put the arm above your head because  in that scenario there's no way an attack can come from above.  There is also no reason to stay in that stance that long either. 

With all of that said it's a weak comparison.  After doing that form, I'm going to say that this is completely entertainment performance. There is so much disconnect with the body mechanics that I can't see how anyone could actually use this.  I even felt like I was off balance and I don't easily lose my balance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> After doing that form, I'm going to say that this is completely entertainment performance.


If in the WC form, to freeze the body and only move the palm up and down is for "conditioning the tendons", you can also say in the long fist form, this left arm movement is for "conditioning the shoulder joint".

If I can't even convince myself the proper MA application in a form, how can I teach others? This is why whenever I see a non-fighting move like this in a form, I just replace it by other fighting move. 

May be I'm just not smart enough to figure out the secret application in that move.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> What are your thoughts on this;




Overhead and Chest Punch  
If I'm looking at the correct technique then you guys have actually seen me use both of these before. in sparring.

Pecking Crane
I'm not feeling  it by the way they are using it in sparring.  For me this would be a dirty move. It's similar to a move that I have pulled off before, not like a pro, but usable.  With this my goal would be an eye poke or to hit the soft areas of the face.  Probably get more mileage out of the eye poke.  I would most likely use it when my opponent comes in lazy.  I don't train this often so definitely wouldn't use it in a fight.  I'm going to step out of my lane on this one a little or a lot.  This move is not a head on fighting technique.  It's meant to be used at an angle. so you don't get knocked out.     First slip jabb with a hook parry, to interfere with the arms return which would get in your way, then poke your opponent in the or face if you have stone fingers.

Tiger's Claw
This one is doable in a fight, but I don't think the video shows it being used properly.   I would never use it that way.  Tiger Claw as I was taught is a snatch.  So short explanation. I would palm strike your face then try to quickly pull your face off. It can also be use to attack certain muscles in tendons as well.  When you see tiger claw conditioning used it's always a snatch motion not a striking with claw motion.  The claw is used for pulling not swiping.





Punch the sky + Shoot the Spike hand.
This is just an uppercut followed by a  straight right.  The right is thrown while in a bow stance because you are slipping a punch. or a spear hand to the throat.  It's doable, but I wouldn't use a spear hand unless I was 100% sure that spear hand is going to get in.  Fingers vs incoming punches is a bad situation to be in.

Cat washes Face
Done it in sparring, used it when sparring against the Sanda school.   Doable, easy to do, high percentage on people who like to throw more than one punch.  I have it on video.  Some of you have already seen it and didn't realize it.   some of you may actually use it and don't realize it.. At the 2:02 mark you can see it fail because he didn't do it enough.

Punching though the sleeve. 
Doable.. I have video of me using it.

I would have to see him in a sparring match to see if he abandons his kung fu.  If he keeps it and uses the techniques then is fight training is decent or good and she should get better the more he does it.  If he abandons the techniques then his training is wrong..  There were somethings I thought were wrong, but it looked as if he was probably teaching and not really trying to execute the techniques.  Sort of how I get when I spar with beginners.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If in the WC form, to freeze the body and only move the palm up and down is for "conditioning the tendons", you can also say in the long fist form, this left arm movement is for "conditioning the shoulder joint".
> 
> If I can't even convince myself the proper MA application in a form, how can I teach others? This is why whenever I see a non-fighting move like this in a form, I just replace it by other fighting move.
> 
> May be I'm just not smart enough to figure out the secret application in that move.


lol.  it's not your smarts.  I'll be the arrogant one for you on this one.  Based on how my body felt when I did that movement,  I would throw it away and do the movement like it's used in application, because that's the movement I need to know, in order to understand the best way to apply it.  I literally went into shadow boxing mode and tried to use it and I felt really off balance and weak.   I was literally just all arm movement with no way to connect any part of my body to drive power.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> Yeah, everone wants to use their high percentage moves instead of venturing out into unchartered waters.


True, but I myself have kickboxed, and had a few amateur fights, I have also done, some wing chun, 5 animal kung Fu, Kempo, Tai chi throughout my years. But Karate, and the techniques from kata, has literally saved my life on several occasions and that is why I focus on Karate, Kwon Bup, is well rounded and very usable. At least for me, I tend to go off of my own personal experience...it is the only way we truly know. Anything else is assumed knowledge. imo


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata.


When you see something like that, then it's because they have not trained the technique properly.  So when fight time comes, they abandon the technique.  You know that they have abandoned their techniques because you never see the kung fu.   When I spar, low or high intensity, it always looks like Jow Ga.  It never looks like kickboxing.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> ...I tend to go off of my own personal experience...it is the only way we truly know. Anything else is assumed knowledge. imo



Yep, unless a movement is natural to us it will never be reaction.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

yak sao said:


> Yeah, everone wants to use their high percentage moves instead of venturing out into unchartered waters.


Light sparring is the only time you should go into uncharted waters because you are learning how to use something..  Competition and real fights is the worst time to learn how to use something.  High percentage techniques are just techniques you can use really well.  What is high percentage for you may be low percentage for other people.  Even if you train the same system.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

I forgot one of the most important things when it comes to learning how to fight WC.  This is the same rule for all systems.  Make sure you spar against people outside of your system. Style A vs Style B.  is the best way to learn how to fight.    Style A vs Style A is only good when  you have to fight someone from the same system.  The probability that you'll fight someone from the same system is really low.  For example, the chances that I'll get into a street fight with another Jow Ga practitioner is very low. 

Pick the most popular fighting system or most effective system and spar against that.   So for Wing Chun  you should spar against,  Muay Thai fighters, Wrestlers, Boxers, and Taekwondo.  You will suck big time if you only do Style A vs Style A.  One of the things that MMA effective is that they do a lot of Style A vs Style B encounters.


----------



## yak sao (Oct 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Light sparring is the only time you should go into uncharted waters because you are learning how to use something..  Competition and real fights is the worst time to learn how to use something.  High percentage techniques are just techniques you can use really well.  What is high percentage for you may be low percentage for other people.  Even if you train the same system.



I agree. Competition is not the place to pull something out of your hat.
 Sparring in class however, should be about learning not winning, otherwise you'll never fully develop.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> When you see something like that, then it's because they have not trained the technique properly.  So when fight time comes, they abandon the technique.  You know that they have abandoned their techniques because you never see the kung fu.   When I spar, low or high intensity, it always looks like Jow Ga.  It never looks like kickboxing.



No offense my friend, but when you spar, it looks like kickboxing as well.

To be fair, I’ve seen videos of Kung Fu masters fighting in the ring and in the rooftops, and they look like sloppy, slap fighting. So what you’re doing is an improvement.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> when you spar, it looks like kickboxing as well.


When my opponent

- switches stance, my back leg roundhouse kick will kick toward his chest without thinking.
- use jab/cross, I will use hook punch to knock his jab/hook down (anti-missile system).
- use cross, I will separate his arm away from his head (protect my center from inside out).
- doing nothing, I'll sweep his leading leg.
- ...

Do I fight like kickboxer?

When your opponent creates an opening, you attack through that open space. Both TMA and kickboxer all do the same way.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> No offense my friend, but when you spar, it looks like kickboxing as well.
> 
> To be fair, I’ve seen videos of Kung Fu masters fighting in the ring and in the rooftops, and they look like sloppy, slap fighting. So what you’re doing is an improvement.


ha ha ha.. I'm pretty sure I don't look like kickboxing. I'm way far from that.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When my opponent
> 
> - switches stance, my back leg roundhouse kick will kick toward his chest without thinking.
> - use jab/cross, I will use hook punch to knock his jab/hook down (anti-missile system).
> ...


Hanzou just wants to get a rise out of me.  If I spar like a kick boxer then all of the real kickboxers are doing it wrong lol


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> I wouldn't know, I have never seen a sport fighter in an actual fight, so personally. I would have to say your wrong.



Plenty of it on line.






And we can compare wrestling street fights that seem to favor dlams and take downs with BJJ street fights that seem to favour submissions.





So we now have two different examples of people using the tools they are trained to street fight.

If I looked up boxing or kick boxing. We would tend to see more striking.

These are direct translations from training to application.

And the point is for any martial art you need something that demonstratively works. So the tools you use in class has to be able to stop a guy. So if say you fight with 16 oz gloves. You still need to be able to stop a guy with those gloves on. Regardless as to his intention to keep going.






So that if you are attacked you at least have something that will stop a guy. 

Because that will transfer directly to self defence.


----------



## jobo (Oct 17, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You know who also doesn't have harnesses?
> 
> Ballroom dancing.
> 
> Basically the same thing.


but dancing would be a marvelious traininng tool for ma,
dependent on the art and the dance to some extent

particularly if someone had poor motor , mobility,spacial awarness and timing skills, or someone who can dance would be a lit easier to teach as these skill are already well developed, but then the same can be said for soccer or rugby.or basketball 

as such , if your correct and teaching kata is teaching dance it has great value


----------



## wanderingstudent (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Overhead and Chest Punch
> If I'm looking at the correct technique then you guys have actually seen me use both of these before. in sparring.
> 
> Pecking Crane
> ...




Which video are you referencing with these topics?


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Plenty of it on line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, you can find videos of kicks and punches, used in Katas, what's your point? Sweeps, takedowns, found in Katas, you see in videos as well. Really, this is just silly. You are just expecting a step by step motion of the entire kata in a fight. You are never going to see that, because ...I will say this slowly, Katas....were ...never....intended...to ......be.....used....in....it's....exact..... sequence....for....a.....fight.

Why is this so hard for you to understand. They are a list of usable techniques, that enable someone to remember them.

Really guys and gals, you look foolish in thinking that kata would look the same in a fight, and you are nitpicking at what is taught to beginners to help them remember the techniques.

The actual use of these individual, techniques, will look different. It looks as if you have only seen and know about the beginning levels of kata training. I don't think many have ever made it past the first level of kata. You know, the manual part.

It's the exact sequence, in exact order, that you seem to think is how you use karate...this is simply a beginners ignorance and lack of real knowledge concerning most TMA's.

This is the fault of taking a non sport art, into the arena.

That is like saying the fundamentals that are taught step by step in BJJ should be followed exactly in the sequence it is taught when used in a fight...do you or can you even do this or do your techniques change for the situation.

Since this obviously doesn't happen, BJJ in training would be in the same category as karate...they don't look exactly the same, because they don't use it in sequence.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

My guess, is that most Ex-TMA's that spout these things about Kata, learned in a competition oriented dojo, which admittedly removed a lot of real training from their curriculum for the joy of combat..

This subject will keep going in circles, due to basic ignorance (lacking in knowledge). I can see that now.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

wanderingstudent said:


> Which video are you referencing with these topics?


  I'm commenting on the Video in Post #90   The other videos I mention about me doing the techniques are in videos that I've posted in MT before.  Many which are no longer available at the moment.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Plenty of it on line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some of those wrestling street fights demonstrate why knowledge of ground fighting is important. While there were some knockouts from getting dumped on your head (highly dangerous btw, because you can end up in prison if that person dies or get permanent brain damage), some guys popped right back up from getting suplexed.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata. So if the end result of all of that kata practice is ending up looking like a kick boxer, why not just train the way kick boxers do and enhance your fighting ability?


This is the same statement runs through my head when I see the same thing.  Why spend years with repetitive movement training only to abandon it in sparring.  I only mention sparring here because if they abandon it in sparring then they will definitely abandon it when the real fight comes.  In my mind that's the biggest insult that one can give to a fighting system that they claim to be good in and I hate seeing it.   When I train students I force them to use it.  If we train kung fu then that's the only thing we should see when sparring. As a teacher, having a student represent your school, only to abandon it, is embarrassing.

This always comes down to inadequate training aka, not using those techniques in fighting.  Jabs, Haymakers, and kicking are linear.  They don't take a lot of set up to use.  But this isn't true with a lot of TMA techniques where techniques have to deployed a certain way.  I can't just go out and swing my arms like a jab.  That will just get me knocked out.  I have to use good timing and have a good understanding of the technique I'm using and the movement of my opponent.  Stuff like that is only learned by sparring and actually using it.

Most people spar to win, but you can't learn Kung Fu  like that.  The first 6 months of learning how to use a technique is going to be filled with a lot of failures and I always remind students that this is a reality of learning how to do anything.  No one learns how to play the guitar or piano without having a lot of failures along the way.  This is the same with learning to fight with a new technique.  Failing is just part of learning.  But if the student abandons the technique during the application setting then, they will never learn the technique.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Some of those wrestling street fights demonstrate why knowledge of ground fighting is important.


Here's my analysis of what I saw

First video.
The wrestler *THROWS *the first attacker on the ground.  Then *QUICKLY GETS BACK TO HIS FEET*.  He doesn't stay on the ground and wait for the other person so he can ground fight.  The wrestler then *TAKES DOWN *the second attacker on the ground, punches him a few times then gets back up  to his feet and Soccer kicks him.  I don't know if he realized that the person running in was the lady or if he was preparing for a possible third attack but he did it by standing back up.  He won the fight.

Second Video
The guy wins by *THROWING *the person on the ground and he does so by remaining standing.

Third Video.
Not sure how this one ended, But *THROWS *the guy down 2 times and looked like he was going for a third.  He had the dominant position, but the other guy is able to get to his feet which is the better place to be even though he got slammed twice.  My guess is that every slam will be less powerful and it didn't look like that third throwing attempt would be more powerful than the first.

Fourth Video
Guy wins by *THROWING *

Fifth Video
Multiple *THROWS
*
Sixth Video
Starts with *THROWING *the opponent to the ground then *KEEPS THE FIGHT ON THE GROUND*.  Here knowing how to fight on the ground would be of big use.


Out of all of the clips including the ground fighting one.  I would say the thing that was most dangerous is thing to watch out is the *THROW*. The best way to deal with that is train how to defend against the throw.


6 out of 6 videos show that the Throw was effective and was the first move taken, with the exception of the guy who fought 2 people at once.  Where he used a single leg take down and then ended the fight with a soccer kick.
1 out of 6 videos actually show extensive ground fighting
5 out of 6 videos show people getting back to their feet or staying on their feet be it the wrestler or the non-wrestler.
If these guys are wrestlers, then the majority of the wrestlers opt to end the fight on their feet not on the ground, with the THROW being the most effective skill set used in all 6 videos.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> If these guys are wrestlers, then the majority of the wrestlers opt to end the fight on their feet not on the ground, with the THROW being the most effective skill set used in all 6 videos.



Which is a bad idea, because continuously dumping someone on their head will eventually kill them, or conversely, if the person pops back up after getting thrown to the ground, he has another opportunity to knock YOU out. If you're a high school kid or a young adult, you don't want to go to prison for getting in a school yard brawl. Putting someone to sleep with a choke is far more preferable.

If you throw someone to the ground in a one on one situation, finish them on the ground, unless your initial (or second) throw knocks them out. It really take little effort to be in a dominant position after throwing someone to the ground.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

After watching the Wrestler videos.  I would say that the biggest mistake that I see Wing Chun practioners make is trying to escape grappling with strikes.  You can use striking to prevent grappling attempts but once the person grabs you then you need to address grappling with grappling.  There are tons of ways to do this from a Kung Fu perspective but it requires that your escape to grab.

Trying to punch your way out of someone who has grabbed you is high risk.  In my sparring videos, when someone is successful in grabbing me, I immediately switched from striking to grappling.   I don't see how one would be able to maintain a punching structure that is solid enough to continue striking.  Elbows to the back will only work if you have the structure to deliver one.  If you are able to maintain that structure then you would have to have a really strong elbow technique in order to weaken or stop the take down technique.  Most people who do take downs are actually at an angle that is slanted so there's that.

Invite some wrestlers over and have them just take you to the ground all day.  Work on trying to escape or avoid the take downs.  They will have stronger grips than most Kung Fu practitioners so it'll be a good benchmark for understanding how your training needs to adjust.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Putting someone to sleep with a choke is far more preferable.


What if that person never wakes up?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if that person never wakes up?



It only takes a few seconds for a person to pass out, and depending on the choke you can feel them going limp. You would need to hold the choke for a lot longer than that in order to inflict death or serious brain damage.


----------



## Jens (Oct 17, 2020)

Another BJJ Athlete Has Stroke


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> It only takes a few seconds for a person to pass out, and depending on the choke you can feel them going limp. You would need to hold the choke for a lot longer than that in order to inflict death or serious brain damage.


I think joint locking on the ground is much safer.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think joint locking on the ground is much safer.



Snapping someone's arms or legs, while barrels of fun, sets you up for some nasty lawsuits.

Obviously if you're fighting some criminal trying to kill you, snap to your heart's content. However, if its a schoolyard brawl, I'd be careful with maiming someone.



Jens said:


> Another BJJ Athlete Has Stroke



Yet another reason I don't fight against choke holds in practice.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Which is a bad idea, because continuously dumping someone on their head will eventually kill them, or conversely, if the person pops back up after getting thrown to the ground, he has another opportunity to knock YOU out. If you're a high school kid or a young adult, you don't want to go to prison for getting in a school yard brawl. Putting someone to sleep with a choke is far more preferable.


  The only kindness I'll show to an attacker is when he's no longer attacking.  Until then, stuff like that doesn't factor into my self-defense.  Never has.  Not saying that you are wrong.  I'm just saying I don't think of my attackers well being.  The only thing I want to show is me being attacked and then defending myself.  Anything else would be,  "my attacker landed badly."  as many more people are slammed and don't die.  

This is how i look at it.  A person who attacks me is no longer concerned about their safety, which is why I'm being attacked.  If they were actually concerned about their safety then they wouldn't have attacked in me in the first place.   A person who attacks me no longer cares about my safety, which is why they attack me.  If they actually cared about me being safe then they would have never attacked me to harm me. Because of this my response will reflect this reality.  This is just how my mind works in terms of self-defense.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think joint locking on the ground is much safer.


  I think breaking that arm will be much safer than the joint lock.  I'm not trying to detain my attacker, I'm trying to keep my attacker from attacking me.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> the biggest mistake that I see Wing Chun practioners make is trying to escape grappling with strikes.


The WC system may not look at a solution from all different angles.

2 major strategies are not addressed in the following clip.

1. Wrist grabbing - If A uses right hand to hold on B's left wrist, and pull B's left arm across B's body, most of A's goal can be achieved.
2. Hook punch - B's left arm can borrow A's right arm downward pressure, B can then rotate B's left arm into a left hook punch toward A's head.

IMO, to train WC fighters, all strategy should be addressed (such as wrist grabbing and hook punch).


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Jens said:


> Another BJJ Athlete Has Stroke


Correct.  There are dangers and risks with putting people to sleep.  Which is a funny way of saying it, because the technique isn't putting them to sleep.  It's cutting off oxygen to the brain.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Correct.  There are dangers and risks with putting people to sleep.  Which is a funny way of saying it, because the technique isn't putting them to sleep.  It's cutting off oxygen to the brain.


Yes, a rear choke if done correctly is restricting blood flow of the carotid arteries so, by virtue, it cuts off oxygen supply to the brain. If has little to nothing to do with the actual throat. 
I am certain I have choked out over 100 people. There are subtleties to learn outside the actual choke. It is NOT an easily learned skill and Not something that should be done haphazardly. 
For me the hardest thing is when people fake going out and resist the hold. The time is different for every person and situation. If a person has already exerted themselves it takes a lesser amount of time to bring them down. Something we tried to avoid because it adds a variable that is harder to predict. Creates a bigger grey area.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Correct.  There are dangers and risks with putting people to sleep.  Which is a funny way of saying it, because the technique isn't putting them to sleep.  It's cutting off oxygen to the brain.



In the spectrum of ending a fight though, it's by far the least dangerous to the assailant. More people have died from knockouts or getting slammed on their head than from a stroke induced by a chokehold.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC system may not look at a solution from all different angles.
> 
> 2 major principles are missing in the following clip.
> 
> ...


Video was too complicated for me.  I had to watch the video 5 times in order to figure out what he was trying to show.   Which is basically this.
Pin lead hand and strike over pinned arm.  Too much explaining lol.  He's worst than me with the explaining lol.





With your statement about B, I think he angles his elbow downward in order to interrupt any effort to loop into a left hook,  but I really can't tell as he changes the approach and then take an angle. Which would make the looping more difficult to pull of with any power.  In the first attempt he stays in the same spot, directly in front on the second attempt he takes an angle.   The later on he gives up the opportunity to punch someone in the riibs?  Not sure what he was getting at.

But your 1 and  2 is correct, which is why  in the picture above, Hung Ga uses a circular movement so you can't borrow force to loop into a hook.  Just from my own personal experience one should be really careful with how they slap that lead guard down.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> In the spectrum of ending a fight though, it's by far the least dangerous to the assailant.


This doesn't make sense to me from a self-defense perspective.  I don't ever remember trying to use the least dangerous of my strikes when someone is attacking.  Again, not saying you are wrong.  Just pointing out that my brain doesn't function that way.  If, I'm being attacked then I'm looking for the quickest way to end the attack.

The only thing I was pointing out is that people really aren't "going to sleep" even though that's how we often refer to it.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This doesn't make sense to me from a self-defense perspective.  I don't ever remember trying to use the least dangerous of my strikes when someone is attacking.  Again, not saying you are wrong.  Just pointing out that my brain doesn't function that way.  If, I'm being attacked then I'm looking for the quickest way to end the attack.
> 
> The only thing I was pointing out is that people really aren't "going to sleep" even though that's how we often refer to it.



Well consider that the person you're defending yourself from isn't always someone you want to potentially kill or seriously injure. For example if your father is drunk and attacks you and you need to neutralize him, are you going to suplex him on concrete? Are you going to punch him in the head multiple times until he's knocked out? Are you going to break his legs?

In situations like that, a choke is preferable. You can completely neutralize him without doing serious damage.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> For example if your father is drunk and attacks you and you need to neutralize him, are you going to suplex him on concrete? Are you going to punch him in the head multiple times until he's knocked out? Are you going to break his legs?


 It depends on what he's attacking me with.  If he's that drunk then that's an advantage to me, because of the physical effects on motor skill and balance caused by the alcohol.  His fighting ability is degraded.  Which is different than a sober person trying to hit me.  All I would need to do is push him if that much.  My father is old, so he would have to be really drunk to fight family.  Which is the one thing he cares a lot about. But I'll play your game.  With a real rule that I live by.

My family rule taught to me by my father:  No one family member is more important than the whole family.  If that one family member's actions threatens the well being of the family then he or she will be treated accordingly.

If I had an abusive drunk father, then yes, I would punch, kick, and break arms if necessary.  According that family rule.  It doesn't mean that I love him less.  But if my father became such a dangerous threat then yes.   Sort of like saying if your father came in the house and started shooting at you with a gun, would you return fire, if you are able to get to your gun.  You may hate to shoot back at your own father, but that may be the only option other than dying.

You are literally talking to someone who often talks about cutting off emotions when fighting so that you can do the horrible things that may be necessary as part of self-defense.   Buy that's how I am, and how I train my mental state.  

Now, would my father shoot me if I start attacking him and my mom.  Yep.  I'm 99% sure he would shoot me.  Would his intent be to kill me.  Probably not.  All he would care about is that the bullet hit me and no one else.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would throw it away and do the movement like it's used in application,


This is why this move:






has been changed into this move. An upward block may not look fancy but it's useful.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> It depends on what he's attacking me with.  If he's that drunk then that's an advantage to me, because of the physical effects on motor skill and balance caused by the alcohol.  His fighting ability is degraded.  Which is different than a sober person trying to hit me.  All I would need to do is push him if that much.  My father is old, so he would have to be really drunk to fight family.  Which is the one thing he cares a lot about. But I'll play your game.  With a real rule that I live by.
> 
> My family rule taught to me by my father:  No one family member is more important than the whole family.  If that one family member's actions threatens the well being of the family then he or she will be treated accordingly.
> 
> ...


This isn't me being tough. This is me understanding of where I fit in my family and where the limits are drawn.  My family believes in spankings so I know they are able to cause physical pain to their children.  The amount of physical pain will always be appropriate to the danger the believe they are in.  So if I come in like a mad dog, then their response will be the same.  They may not like what has to be done but they will do it.  I never liked spanking my son but I did it when felt there was a need.


----------



## Saheim (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Honest question; Would someone become a better fighter more quickly if you removed form training and focused entirely on the striking, blocking, footwork, etc, and instituted heavy sparring practice? Like take the techniques of Wing Chun and apply them to a Boxing or Muay Thai approach.



While I do not agree with dropping forms, even from the earliest of stages, I do agree there are other things that need focused on IF you are expecting a totally inexperienced person to be decent at fighting within that first year.

I was in a different TMA and said to my instructor that as much as I loved the art AND knew how beneficial it would be in the long run, I believed if a person started our class and stayed for 6 months while a different person started at a Muay Thai gym and stayed for 6 months, the MT guy would kick our guy's butt. He didn't like that.

That was not a WC school and I only mention it for reference because I still pretty much feel that way. I have only been training in WC for apx 2 yr. I absolutely love it. It consumes much of my life (reading different perspectives, watching tutorials from different lineages, training, etc). However, if I ever ran a class, I'd focus on: stance, footwork, basic boxing skills, round kicks and teeps from day one.  Also, so far (still very young in the art) I really do not consider it a stand alone system. To be honest,  I have never considered anything a stand alone system. I view M.A. like religion- everyone has a piece of the puzzle and everyone added some junk. Sort through the junk, find the pieces


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why this move:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It feels better as well.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> It depends on what he's attacking me with.  If he's that drunk then that's an advantage to me, because of the physical effects on motor skill and balance caused by the alcohol.  His fighting ability is degraded.  Which is different than a sober person trying to hit me.  All I would need to do is push him if that much.  My father is old, so he would have to be really drunk to fight family.  Which is the one thing he cares a lot about. But I'll play your game.  With a real rule that I live by.
> 
> My family rule taught to me by my father:  No one family member is more important than the whole family.  If that one family member's actions threatens the well being of the family then he or she will be treated accordingly.
> 
> ...



So you're saying there is never a hypothetical self defense situation where potentially killing the person attacking you isn't an option?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Saheim said:


> While I do not agree with dropping forms, even from the earliest of stages, I do agree there are other things that need focused on IF you are expecting a totally inexperienced person to be decent at fighting within that first year.
> 
> I was in a different TMA and said to my instructor that as much as I loved the art AND knew how beneficial it would be in the long run, I believed if a person started our class and stayed for 6 months while a different person started at a Muay Thai gym and stayed for 6 months, the MT guy would kick our guy's butt. He didn't like that.
> 
> That was not a WC school and I only mention it for reference because I still pretty much feel that way. I have only been training in WC for apx 2 yr. I absolutely love it. It consumes much of my life (reading different perspectives, watching tutorials from different lineages, training, etc). However, if I ever ran a class, I'd focus on: stance, footwork, basic boxing skills, round kicks and teeps from day one.  Also, so far (still very young in the art) I really do not consider it a stand alone system. To be honest,  I have never considered anything a stand alone system. I view M.A. like religion- everyone has a piece of the puzzle and everyone added some junk. Sort through the junk, find the pieces


I think you can learn how to use some basic wing chun techniques in 3 months with 2 hour sparring sessions once a week.  And at least 4 hours during that time period sparring against other systems.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying there is never a hypothetical self defense situation where potentially killing the person attacking you isn't an option?


Its always an option and always my decision if I go in that direction.  Just because I can doesnt


----------



## Buka (Oct 17, 2020)

Every student I’ve ever taught spars for the first time with me or one of the other black belts. It’s not actual free sparring, it’s teaching them the rule set we use in whatever type of sparring we’re doing at that time, and teaching them distance and control.

We teach control for obvious reasons - so they won’t kill each other once they get into the swing of things. We also always bring them onto the floor when there’s advanced sparring going on, making them feel comfortable, making them part of the class. Everybody buddies up to them, asks them if they have any particular questions, encouraging them to ask.

I always tell them at this point, “You see all these guys? You’ll be sparring with them in no time. And you’ll be taking other beginners under your wing like they are to you.” Six months down the road I remind them of that when they're taking new kids under their wing.

The biggest thing that helped, in my opinion, was how hard we worked in classes. Sparring night was like a day off, like a wonderful party. Everybody loved sparring nights. We would spar every Thursday night, other than holidays. We would also spar on any other night, which everyone thought of as a reward.

Sparring nights was wall to wall people. Some guys were kickboxing, some boxing, some point fighting, some making up whatever it was they wanted to do. All supervised, of course. Groin kicks were legal, takedowns were legal, and there was no such thing as no contact to the face. The day I teach no contact to the face will be the day boxing changes to no contact to the face. Dumbest thing in the history of Martial Arts in my opinion. It’s like teaching someone to miss.

P.S Edit. As for Kyokushin guys. Every Kyokushin guy I ever trained with punched to the face just fine and dandy. They talk a good "we don't hit to the face" but they sure as hell do when they're in a gym that does. And they seem to like it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2020)

Saheim said:


> I have never considered anything a stand alone system. I view M.A. like religion- everyone has a piece of the puzzle and everyone added some junk. Sort through the junk, find the pieces


I consider that as major and minors. I'm glad that I bring the

- WC centerline strategy (see I'm still talking within WC topic) into my Sanda system as rhino guard (protect center from inside out). I call this open - to drill a big hole between my opponent's arms.
- SC circular arms strategy into my Sanda system as circular arms guard (protect center from outside in). I call this the anti-missile system, squeeze - to guide my opponent's one arm to against his own other arm.

These integration can make my Sanda system more complete and more traditional.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Its always an option and always my decision if I go in that direction.  Just because I can doesnt


Tried to edit this.  

Just because I can kill someone doesn't mean that I will choose to or need to.  But it's always an option.  Either for me or my attacker

Just because I think I can kill someone one doesn't mean that I have the skill sets, ability, or capability to do so. (lots of people claim to be deadly but lack the skills or ability to be so.). If I'm 1 vs 1 then the option may be a high ability depending on who I'm fighting.  If I'm fighting unarmed against a professional fighter then that option becomes a low ability,  but still probable if that person decides to try to go easy on me, which may increase my opportunity to cause him harm.

Dying is always an option, or better yet a possibility which is why I don't take fighting lightly.  There's nothing in the rules that says I won't be the one that dies that day and I keep that in my mind.  ALWAYS.   This means when I get into a fight I can't be messing around being concerned about the person trying to hurt me.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just because I can kill someone doesn't mean that I will choose to or need to.


There is a big difference between

1. Be able to do it and don't want to do it, and
2. Want to do it and not be able to do it.

We train MA so we can achieve 1.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 18, 2020)

I’ll start with generalities and  I’ve on to some specific observations regarding WC.

First, you need some foundation of techniques and principles which can work in a fight, WC has those.

Next, you need to give the students opportunities to apply those techniques and principles under pressure with the possibility of failure included so that the student can learn from the results. It doesn’t mean that you have to jump right in to full MMA style sparring against practitioners of different styles, but there should be a progression leading that direction.

In the beginning it’s good to give students isolated moments that might come up in a fight and give them a task to accomplish in that moment while their training partner tries to prevent it. For example when I teach students how to perform a single leg takedown I might give them a drill where one student having already scooped up and captured their partner’s leg. Then on “go”, the first student tries to complete the takedown while the other tries to stop the takedown and free their leg. I’ll watch the students work this drill for a few rounds, observing where the problems are. Then we’ll take a little break, discuss the difficulties students are having, I’ll point out some specific technical flaws that I saw getting in the way, then I’ll send them out to try again and see whether the success rate goes up.

Getting to WC now. I spent some time a few years back training Wing Tsun with @yak sao. I learned some cool stuff, some of which I’ve been able to use on occasion in MMA sparring against reasonably high level sparring partners. Yak sao himself I am confident can use his WC skills effectively in a fight. However there are certain aspects of how he and his lead assistant instructor were teaching at that time which I think were counterproductive for helping his students learn to fight effectively.

(I spoke privately with yak sao before writing this post to get his approval on posting this feedback publicly and to make sure this doesn't come across as disrespectful or an attack, because it's not meant to be either.)

At the time* yak sao was teaching primarily forms, footwork, specific technical applications, and some assorted non-pressure drills.  There was no sparring and it was rare to see even beginning level pressure testing. His idea was that if the student doesn't get the WC body mechanics and structures fully ingrained before sparring, then their technique will just fall apart into sloppy, crappy kickboxing once they are put into the stress of sparring.  

*(I haven't been out to see him in a while, but he has mentioned that he is doing some things differently now.)

I understand this idea, but in my experience this will happen regardless the first time a student is thrown into to the stress of free-form pressure testing scenarios such as sparring, regardless of how long you give them to ingrain their form through preset drills. Beginning BJJ and boxing students have terrible technique and form when they start sparring. Their technique gradually improves because they discover the correct body mechanics reliably produce better results under stress. In addition, they become desensitized to the adrenaline rush and they encounter instructors and senior sparring partners who can reliably dominate them in sparring through the application of correct technique. Personally I would take no longer than 6 months to introduce new students to the fundamental technical repertoire of the style before starting them out with sparring. More limited forms of somewhat free-form pressure testing can start earlier.

At the time I trained with yak sao's group, I was regularly taking what I learned back to my home gym and testing it out in sparring. I was the most junior (in terms of WC) student, but I didn't see the senior students with years of training doing anything similar.

In addition, the option of learning from failure seemed to be generally lacking even in the non-pressure training. I'll give an example from a class I attended which was taught by the senior assistant instructor. We were drilling an approach for dealing with a boxing style jab. The idea was to smother the opponent's technique with a pak sao, aggressive footwork, and a flurry of punches. This can be a valid tactic under the right circumstances, with the right timing. I was having no problem with the drill, perhaps because I have plenty of experience in dealing with boxer's punches. My partner, however, was struggling. I was doing my best to be a good partner and make it easy on him. I was feeding very slow jabs, with no feints, and no footwork. However I was using good boxing form and returning to a proper defensive guard as my jab retracted. My partner was hesitating on his reaction and so by the time his counter attack arrived I was already covered against his punches. His form was adequate, but his timing made the technique ineffective. The assistant instructor came over and watched the proceedings. His solution ended up being telling me to stop recovering to the proper defensive guard and just drop my hands after my opponent's pak sao so that he could get the experience of throwing his ending flurry of punches towards my unprotected face. 

Needless to say, I consider this to have been absolutely useless and counterproductive for my training partner's progression towards being able to fight. He was already drilling the basic movement and body mechanics, so  forcing me to feed him bad technique didn't help with that part of the process. The next step was to understand the basics of the timing and without being able to see my recovery he would have no way of knowing when he got that right. Without learning that basic timing, he would have no way to further progress into understanding the more advanced aspects necessary to make the tactic work, i.e. dealing with the opponent's footwork, dealing with the opponent's feints, understanding the moments in a fight when the tactic might work and when it definitely will not, dealing with the opponent's counters to the counter, and then being able to put that all into play under the stress of someone actually trying to hit him. 

The frustrating thing is that I'm quite sure the assistant instructor knew what my partner was doing wrong in terms of timing and what needed to be fixed (at least for that level of the drill). He just wanted the student to experience the technique as "winning" rather than let him experience the "failure" of not being able to know that his punches would have landed.

In my opinion, you have to (as drop bear often puts it) "invest in failure." Let the students experience how their techniques can fail even with minimal resistance and help them fix the flaw which cause that failure. Then let them experience how they can fail with mild resistance and help them fix those flaws. Then gradually up the difficulty until they can function at least in full-free form sparring, preferably with some solid contact and preferably with time spent sparring against people who are proficient in other systems.

Speaking of sparring against practitioners of other styles, it's a good idea to become familiar with at least the basics of how those systems operate rather than making assumptions and trying to teach counters based on uneducated assumptions. 

I have to give yak sao credit for this. When we started getting together, it was to trade information and training. After a while, due to some personal things going on in his life, he realized that he didn't have the mental energy to actively study another system at that time but invited me to continue attending his classes for free because he thought my training background would be helpful for the other students. He also encouraged his students to train with me when they had the opportunity, although only one took him up on that suggestion.

His assistant instructor (who was running most of the classes for a time) I don't think placed that same value on my experience. I've noted the incident above. I remember another time when he was showing how to pressure blitz a boxer and I showed how my natural reaction in that situation would be to shoulder roll the chain punches, pivot out, and counter with a left hook. He had an idea about how he would deal with that response, but while explaining it mentioned that the hook wouldn't be too powerful from that position. Yak sao was there for that class and commented "Tony did just say that was one of the most powerful punches in boxing." He was paying attention. His assistant was not.

(I also had some discussions with one or two of the other senior students which revealed a certain dogmatism and misplaced certainty that their system contained all the answers.)

Bottom line: Do your forms if you want. Do your isolated drills if you want. Certainly drill your basic techniques and applications without resistance in order to learn the body mechanics. But you have to spend time regularly pressure testing your technique with non-cooperative training partners or it's just not going to work reliably. (To be fair, there's also the option of just going out and getting into a whole bunch of real fights. However this is generally inadvisable from a legal and medical perspective. Not to mention that due to the non-progressive nature of the approach will make it hard to achieve mastery of the more subtle of difficult techniques.)


----------



## jobo (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying there is never a hypothetical self defense situation where potentially killing the person attacking you isn't an option?


in a self defence situation trying to kill the attacker is the most reliable mode of operation, best if you stop when they are no longer a threat to you, as clearly then the sd has gone from the situation

what you should never do is hold back


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> in a self defence situation trying to kill the attacker is the most reliable mode of operation, best if you stop when they are no longer a threat to you, as clearly then the sd has gone from the situation
> 
> what you should never do is hold back



While the most reliable, it isn't the most preferable. For example, when I worked in a school, a student attacked me with a hammer. If I killed that student, I would be in prison right now. Instead, I triangled him and restrained him until security came. That's what I'm talking about; Not every SD situation is some mugger with a knife coming for your wallet. Some SD situations require you to hold back or suffer seriously bad outcomes.


----------



## jobo (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> While the most reliable, it isn't the most preferable. For example, when I worked in a school, a student attacked me with a hammer. If I killed that student, I would be in prison right now. Instead, I triangled him and restrained him until security came. That's what I'm talking about; Not every SD situation is some mugger with a knife coming for your wallet. Some SD situations require you to hold back or suffer seriously bad outcomes.


WELL ON scheme of thing that a bit of an out lyer, my young nephew had a temper tantrum and kicked me, i didnt try to kill him either

i didnt say kill them, i said try to kill them, if they stop being a threat stop trying to kill them

its not actually easy to kill someone with head punches, i spent a chunk of my life trying, they tend to pass out or give up


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> WELL ON scheme of thing that a bit of an out lyer, my young nephew had a temper tantrum and kicked me, i did try to kill him either
> 
> i didnt say kill them, i said try to kill them, if they stop being a threat stop trying to kill them
> 
> its not actually easy to kill someone with head punches, i spent a chunk of my life trying,



Oh it certainly is. I would even argue that unless you have a dangerous job, tend to frequent bad places, or a woman, self defense in of itself is an outlier.


----------



## jobo (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Oh it certainly is. I would even argue that unless you have a dangerous job, tend to frequent bad places, or a woman, self defense in of itself is an outlier.


well life style i suppose, if you never get out of your car it becomes increasingly unlikely

if you like to get out and about, its far from unlikely, i got into am exchange with a guy with a bull terrier, he thought he was out of range but i got him bang in the face with a frozen meat pie


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> For example, when I worked in a school, a student attacked me with a hammer. If I killed that student, I would be in prison right now. Instead, I triangled him and restrained him until security came.



Here's what you need to understand.
1. You applied the necessary amount of force to stop your attacker, which is directly related to your skill set.  Not everyone can do what you did.  I wouldn't expect someone's grandmother or someone without your skill set to take the same course of action.  I don't train any technique with the word triangle in it, so that student will get what I got.  I'm also not in any role that requires me to Detain.  Until I work a job that requires me to Detain, I have no interest in started of with the goal of detaining.  

2. A student that you face over there is not the same as a student that I may face over here.  I don't know how big students in your area get, but in the U.S. this is a reality.  Students here are big enough to slam teachers and cause serious harm.  This student isn't attacking with a hammer and I can tell you if he threw fists like this I wouldn't care about restraining him for his safety.  I would be more concerned with my safety.





Here's your hammer attack scenario.. She should have put him in a triangle like you stated.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying there is never a hypothetical self defense situation where potentially killing the person attacking you isn't an option?


Old Chinese saying said, "You should see red color when you fight." This may sound violence. But the truly meaning is, if you don't have good reason to draw blood, you should not fight.

Do you want to kill your opponent? If the answer is no, you turn around, and avoid that fight.


----------



## Bruce7 (Oct 18, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I think this is very well said.
> 
> My Sifu has said that if all we wanted was to learn to fight quickly, he could teach us that in the space of a year and it would include no forms.
> 
> ...



This how I was taught in the early 70's. 
I had perform thousands of basic punches, blocks, and kicks before I perform a form. 
This also slows belt progression. 
Not a money maker.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> That's what I'm talking about; Not every SD situation is some mugger with a knife coming for your wallet. Some SD situations require you to hold back or suffer seriously bad outcomes.


actual in most place in the U.S. SD only requires that you use the necessary force to stop the attack, and that's going to vary depending on who you are and the situation you find yourself in.


----------



## Bruce7 (Oct 18, 2020)

yak sao said:


> As we all know from recent threads in the WC forum, we can't fight our way out of a paper bag....but let's wallow in our delusion.
> 
> What do you do in your school to train the student in, say the first 12 -18 months to defend themselves?



This is a very good post. lots of good post in this thread.
Sparing with no pads, no rest period prepares you best to fight real fight.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2020)

One day someone asked me would I hit a 12 year old in self defense.  My answer was "Yes, and I'll hit him with a chair if I need to"   They looked at me shocked and horrified then I showed them a picture of a big 12 year old.  Would I hit all 12 year olds with a chair? Of course not.  The age isn't the issue.  It's the size .  Not saying that this guy is mean. He's probably a teddy bear, but there are other people his age who may not be as kind, but back to the point.

There's no way that anyone one of us here would be able to use the same force that is used to detain a skinny 12 year old half his size, to stop him.  Now think of someone who is not nice, but aggressive who is the same size.  You may let a small angry 12 year old punch you, but for me personally, I have no interest taking angry punches from someone his size.






At this point I actually feel sorry about him being so big at a young age because I know the police will think the same thing, if he ever got into a situation where police arrive on the scene.  I'm pretty sure his mom gives him lectures about not appearing to be overly aggressive.  Or at least I hope she does.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2020)

Again not the age...The size and this time the skill set.  I used to train a teenage girl who was about 14 at the time this incident occurred.  She has one of the most powerful hits that I've ever seen for anyone her age and more powerful than many of the adults that I train with.  When I spar with her, she's not allowed to hit me as hard as she likes.  For me that would be stupid on my part and dangerous for me.  She's tall and skinny just a lot of power and natural strength.

One day she wasn't in the mood and another adult did something that made her swing on him.  I can't remember what it was, but it wasn't anything inappropriate.  I think we were working on techniques and she was just moody.  But she swung on him and hit him in the arm with anger which I quickly addressed.  But the thing that really stood out to me was the fear in this 45 year old man's eyes.  I've never seen that in him before.  He always felt safe in the school but at that time, it was clear to see that he was afraid of her and it was clear to me that she could physically beat him and wasn't afraid to do it.

The 45 year old is heavier but the teen is taller.  He has no skill in fighting, but she was good enough to beat all the boys, but went easy on my son because she had a crush on him lol.   She would always make the adults giggle when she was younger because she was the one knocking the wind out of them.  If there was a boy crying that day, it was most likely because she punch them too hard.  So from that point on we worked on her control.  I'm glad we did because as a 16 year old teen she had more than enough power in her punches to knock me out and I would be stupid to think otherwise. 

If it ever came down to a fight.  I would have to actually fight her.  I wouldn't be able to just take her lightly like that and still remain safe.  It sounds bad, but it's not she's just that talented.  She's about 18 or 19 now and still trains kung fu and I can only guess that she's stronger than she was at 16.  She's definitely much taller, she looked like she's creeping up on 6 feet the last time I saw her.  Her mom raised her to never hold back if she's attacked.   I've heard some of the conversations her mom had with her, and anyone who thinks this girl is going to ease off out of concern for their safety, would have made a costly mistake.

Can I fight.  Yes, 
Am I good at fighting.  Yes,
But that doesn't mean other people can't fight.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 18, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's what you need to understand.
> 1. You applied the necessary amount of force to stop your attacker, which is directly related to your skill set.  Not everyone can do what you did.  I wouldn't expect someone's grandmother or someone without your skill set to take the same course of action.  I don't train any technique with the word triangle in it, so that student will get what I got.  I'm also not in any role that requires me to Detain.  Until I work a job that requires me to Detain, I have no interest in started of with the goal of detaining.
> 
> 2. A student that you face over there is not the same as a student that I may face over here.  I don't know how big students in your area get, but in the U.S. this is a reality.  Students here are big enough to slam teachers and cause serious harm.  This student isn't attacking with a hammer and I can tell you if he threw fists like this I wouldn't care about restraining him for his safety.  I would be more concerned with my safety.



I was born and raised in the US, and while I'm not there now (thank god), that incident did occur in a US high school. And yeah, the guy I dealt with was a teenager who was the size of a house. In other words, I agree with everything you're saying here. Some kids are bloody huge and require full force to deal with.



> Here's your hammer attack scenario.. She should have put him in a triangle like you stated.



Hmm, she's lucky to be alive. Hammers to the skull are no joke.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I was born and raised in the US, and while I'm not there now (thank god), that incident did occur in a US high school. And yeah, the guy I dealt with was a teenager who was the size of a house. In other words, I agree with everything you're saying here. Some kids are bloody huge and require full force to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, she's lucky to be alive. Hammers to the skull are no joke.


I'm just very cautious about my ability.  I undersell myself  a lot to help me stay in tune with the harsh reality that there is someone out there that can whoop my butt like it was nothing and that some of those people are younger than I am.

The world isn't the same place that it was when I grew up.  Kids were actually kids and acted as such,  The kids these days experience things that my generation never had to deal with, and that forces some or influences some to be be vicious at their age.  When I was a teen, it was unthinkable to attack a teacher.   The number of teachers that were attacked in the 70's and 80's is probably rare and not often.  Same with the number of teachers who fight students.  There was no such thing as a "knock out game" and active shooter drills were unheard of.  I'm not happy that's now a norm., but it is what it is.  The US at times can be really dangerous


----------



## Svarog (Nov 12, 2020)

self-defense is much wider subject then just fighting. It is 99% prevention. So if you want to teach someone how to defend him self , teach first proper way of recognizing and avoiding potential threats. If confrontation happen bit still didn't become physical, there are ways to defuse situation, so those skills are also important. Next step is to teach students how to use non lethal selfdefense tools , like pepper spray . At the very end, when we talk about physical engagement , teach students only three of four punches and kicks they can be executed with fill power, and then work on situational training every class. Put students under a lot of stress so they can develop mental resilience  so they will not find them self in totally alien situation when they have to actually fight . Teaching selfdefense is totally different from teaching traditional martial arts


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2020)

Svarog said:


> self-defense is much wider subject then just fighting. It is 99% prevention. So if you want to teach someone how to defend him self , teach first proper way of recognizing and avoiding potential threats. If confrontation happen bit still didn't become physical, there are ways to defuse situation, so those skills are also important. Next step is to teach students how to use non lethal selfdefense tools , like pepper spray . At the very end, when we talk about physical engagement , teach students only three of four punches and kicks they can be executed with fill power, and then work on situational training every class. Put students under a lot of stress so they can develop mental resilience  so they will not find them self in totally alien situation when they have to actually fight . Teaching selfdefense is totally different from teaching traditional martial arts


The problem with most of that other training is you can't really verify it. It's worth teaching the best of it you can gather, but they can't really test avoidance against a resisting opponent in class. Nor can they actually practice significantly with their pepper spray in class. You can pass along the information, and it may even be good information (some places it really isn't). You can even role-play and practice scenarios. But that doesn't actually give you or them a chance to see if they are effectively learning what's being taught, nor whether what they good enough at what they are learning to actually use it under stress.


----------



## MFC__2020 (Dec 4, 2020)

You run them through the system like everyone else since that's what they are there for.

If their life is in predictable immediate danger during periods when they aren't training at your school you should advise them to contact the police and not rely on being a Batman type of person.


----------

