# Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?



## troubleenuf (Feb 2, 2011)

Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you?  Come on... be honest.


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2011)

No it would not effect me, but it would effect some of my players that compete on the international level. But if the international level did not need them than no it would not mean anything to me or them most likely.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you?  Come on... be honest.




Last year, I and a whole lot of other people (including miguksaram) went on a free tour of Korea (all you had to pay was airfare and the tour people took care of the rest). Anyway, there was one gentleman there who had a dojang 7th Dan and a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. He had been training for I think 40 or more years. He was a nice guy, but you could tell that he was bothered by the fact that he did not possess Kukkiwon certification commensurate with his years of training. People can go the sour grapes route and say that it doesn't mean anything, but for a lot of people, if they were honest, would admit that they desire Kukkiwon certification immensely. Some people out there do all sorts of crazy things to obtain Kukkiwon certification.


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## troubleenuf (Feb 2, 2011)

I understand that but can you tell me why?  I think it is because we have been told since we first started training that the Kukkiwon certificate was "it".  30 years ago if you had one you were "special".  But is that true anymore?  I know of people who have been jumped up in rank simply because they had the right connections, and yes they got Kukkiwon certificates for it.  It kind of devalues it.  



puunui said:


> Last year, I and a whole lot of other people (including miguksaram) went on a free tour of Korea (all you had to pay was airfare and the tour people took care of the rest). Anyway, there was one gentleman there who had a dojang 7th Dan and a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. He had been training for I think 40 or more years. He was a nice guy, but you could tell that he was bothered by the fact that he did not possess Kukkiwon certification commensurate with his years of training. People can go the sour grapes route and say that it doesn't mean anything, but for a lot of people, if they were honest, would admit that they desire Kukkiwon certification immensely. Some people out there do all sorts of crazy things to obtain Kukkiwon certification.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> I understand that but can you tell me why?  I think it is because we have been told since we first started training that the Kukkiwon certificate was "it".  30 years ago if you had one you were "special".  But is that true anymore?  I know of people who have been jumped up in rank simply because they had the right connections, and yes they got Kukkiwon certificates for it.  It kind of devalues it.




I believe he was told that Kukkiwon certification wasn't special, that he didn't need it, that the sweet lemon certificate signed by his teacher was more valuable, and all the rest of the sour grape justifications why someone doesn't need or want Kukkiwon certification. Now 40 years later, he feels differently. You could tell that he was deeply affected by it, that it seriously bothered him on the inside. People want to feel connected, they want to feel like they are a part of something, for him especially since his instructor has retired. 

On the issue of devaluation, what someone else has has no bearing or effect on you or me. Comparing yourself to others is not the martial arts way; comparing yourself to what you can be is the martial arts way.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> I think it is because we have been told since we first started training that the Kukkiwon certificate was "it".




On this particular subject, I was never told that the Kukkiwon certification was "it". Our instructor simply got everyone Kukkiwon certification. There was no discussion, no big decision to make; we were just handed our Kukkiwon certificates and that was it. The instructors back then, at least where I grew up, didn't even think about issuing certification in their own name. I have friends from the Kukkiwon, Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and ITF schools from that era, and they all got the official certificate, whatever that official certificate was. No one got certificates signed by their instructors. 

And now it is the same with me. I would never think of issuing my own dan or poom certificate in my own name.


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## d1jinx (Feb 2, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?.


 
*YES *


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> *YES *


 
WOW have you not had your KKW today?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you? Come on... be honest.


Given that my primary arts are hapkido and kumdo, not really.... but I already have a Kukkiwon certificate, as I have spent a substantial amount of time in taekwondo. 

My first dan Kukkiwon cert is one that I am extremely proud of, more because of what it represents to me. Inspite of my build; short torso and long legs, I am not a natural kicker and my hand strikes are what I consider to be so-so compared to others. I was the tall, very skinny and uncoordinated kid growing up, so becoming proficient in taekwondo and earning that certificate is one of my top ten personal accomplishments, primarilly because of the amount of work that I had to do to get to where I could really legitimately pass the test. My martial arts journey was also broken up by real life events along the way, so any progress that I would make would have to be partially remade after things settled down and I could resume formal classes again.

Having said all that, I think people getting up in arms about KKW certification need to look at what KKW certification actually is before getting up in arms. We already have about ten threads going at once which have arguments over KKW certification going on within them. 

Kukkiwon certification does not require you to don hogu and try out for the olympics. It does not require you to stop practicing your Chang Hon tuls, Pyung-ahn hyung, or Palgwe pumse. It does not require you to lose the hapkido hoshinsul that you learned from your GM twenty years ago, and it does not require you to wear a vee neck dobok.

All that it does is register you with the Kukkiwon. The only thing that you should do is learn eight little forms called Taegeuk pumse, which are literally little forms. But if you don't, there's no Kukki spooks coming to grab you, stick a bag over your head, and drive you to a secret Kukki compound to waterboard you until you agree to learn them.

But having a KKW certificate benefits you by opening up circles to you that may have been previously closed. Should your school go under (not unlikely given the current economic climb), finding another Kukki dojang where you can pick up where you left off is easy, showing the instructor your KKW cert tells him or her approximately where you are and what you likely know so that you can jump into class and do what it is you really want to: train.

Not rocket science. 

The main reason that Glenn promotes it to the degree that he does (aside from that it seems to be his passion) is because having it will only benefit you, if for no other reason than portability of rank. A school being able to issue it only helps its students.

If you don't want it, then find, you don't want it. But as the saying goes, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

And if the world *does* implode, it won't be on me.

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Feb 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> WOW have you not had your KKW today?


 
Actually now that you mention it, I have been waiting a little too long for these damn certs.  I loaded them on 6 JAN (missed the 5 jan Print date) and was expecting them right after the 20th print date.  But here it is the 2nd of FEB and still not processed yet.  And they are closed till the 5th.  Sheez.  I got spoiled when they started popping them out within 2-3 weeks.  Now I am having panic attacks of the days when it took 3 months to get them back......:erg:

As for the Subject.... I just put the first thing that came to mind!!!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> People want to feel connected, they want to feel like they are a part of something.


QFT

Many people like being part of something bigger than themselves and their own sandbox.  If you do not have that particular need, then that's great!  But many people do.

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Feb 2, 2011)

[yt]v5FW8Xo8ENo[/yt]


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel you are right but the one thing that Glen does is put certain people down just because they do not see value in it. My KKW means something and that is my instructor thought I was worthy enough for it, plan and simple. We offer them but not everybody wants one and that is fine as well, I also have students that train but do not wish to belt test and that is ok with me. I know this does not compute with others but it does with me, I wish the KKW had more meaning than it does a cross.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Daniel you are right but the one thing that Glen does is put certain people down just because they do not see value in it.




No I don't. I have repeatedly said that if you do not want Kukkiwon certification, fine don't get it. Again, please do not misrepresent me or my position on anything.


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## granfire (Feb 2, 2011)

I think to me 'it's like asking if I miss having a two headed dog: the answer would be no. But then again, I have so many black belts, they don't really hold any value to me either. Just another stepping stone in the journey of life. But a KKW certificate to hang on the wall...<shrug> I am sure it's pretty...

And frankly, some of the surrounding drama is off putting....so this old lady will likely not get one...


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> But having a KKW certificate benefits you by opening up circles to you that may have been previously closed. Should your school go under (not unlikely given the current economic climb), finding another Kukki dojang where you can pick up where you left off is easy, showing the instructor your KKW cert tells him or her approximately where you are and what you likely know so that you can jump into class and do what it is you really want to: train.
> 
> Not rocket science.
> 
> ...



Everything you just said could also be said for ATA or ITF or depending on your locale, Jhoon Rhee, GTF, ITA,  CTF, etc.  Just saying.  

I appreciate puunui's passion in promoting his form of TKD and I enjoy his participation on the forum.  That said I utterly reject the default assumption you and he hold that it is better to have KKW certification than not.  It is a tool like anything else - of use to those who can use it, useless to those who cannot.  And it is only one brand out of a competing group of dozens.  Do we go out and buy a Ginsu knife to have in our homes just in case, if we already have a perfectly functional knife already?  Using the same logic, it is not also of utility to go out and get ITF certification because we just might find ourselves in Poland or Vietnam someday where ITF TKD is strong?


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> My KKW means something and that is my instructor thought I was worthy enough for it, plan and simple.




Being "worthy enough" has nothing to do with it. Everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification, no matter who they are.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Daniel you are right but the one thing that Glen does is put certain people down just because they do not see value in it.


To be fair, Glenn also gets flack for simply suggesting that people would benefit from it and that there is no reason _not_ to have one.



terryl965 said:


> My KKW means something and that is my instructor thought I was worthy enough for it, plan and simple. We offer them but not everybody wants one and that is fine as well,


Why not simply just issue KKW certs when students pass BB?  No offense, but it doesn't make sense for a KKW school to issue a non KKW cert.



terryl965 said:


> I also have students that train but do not wish to belt test and that is ok with me. I know this does not compute with others but it does with me, I wish the KKW had more meaning than it does a cross.


Not wanting to test is a different subject from that of not wanting KKW certification.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

granfire said:


> But a KKW certificate to hang on the wall...<shrug> I am sure it's pretty...


Pretty?  Not just pretty.  This thing will raise the value of your house!

Daniel


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> That said I utterly reject the default assumption you and he hold that it is better to have KKW certification than not.




Just curious, but what type of Taekwondo certification do you give to your own students? Any particular organization that you go through? How about for Okinawan Goju Ryu?


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## granfire (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Pretty?  Not just pretty.  This thing will raise the value of your house!
> 
> Daniel




Then again, everything I put on the walls increases the value of my house (it's too easy)


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> To be fair, Glenn also gets flack for simply suggesting that people would benefit from it and that there is no reason _not_ to have one.



It seems an overwhelming burden to prove that EVERYONE practicing tae kwon do can BENEFIT from paying an admittedly non-onerous fee (for a westerner) for certification.  A primary justification seems to be the ability to be a part of something bigger which seems like a benefit rather difficult to quantify in real terms.  You can likewise be part of something bigger by joining a church, or the AARP, or the ACLU - yet I don't see anything advocating that everyone should join at least one of those groups.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Using the same logic, it is not also of utility to go out and get ITF certification because we just might find ourselves in Poland or Vietnam someday where ITF TKD is strong?




Is ITF still strong in Poland and Vietnam? I have no idea, but I do know that Vietnam is a very active participant at WTF International Events, and have even hosted its own WTF events over the years. I would think that ITF may have been strong at one point, but has since faded in favor of the Kukkiwon and WTF.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Everything you just said could also be said for ATA or ITF or depending on your locale, Jhoon Rhee, GTF, ITA, CTF, etc. Just saying.
> 
> I appreciate puunui's passion in promoting his form of TKD and I enjoy his participation on the forum. That said I utterly reject the default assumption you and he hold that it is better to have KKW certification than not.


I'll let Glenn answer for himself, but I do not think it *better*.  I do think that if you are teaching Kukkiwon taekwondo, it raises an eyebrow for me if you aren't issuing them, but outside of that, I don't see it as necessarilly better.



dancingalone said:


> It is a tool like anything else - of use to those who can use it, useless to those who cannot. And it is only one brand out of a competing group of dozens. Do we go out and buy a Ginsu knife to have in our homes just in case, if we already have a perfectly functional knife already? Using the same logic, it is not also of utility to go out and get ITF certification because we just might find ourselves in Poland or Vietnam someday where ITF TKD is strong?


As you say, it is a tool.  Good for many jobs, but not all jobs.  Given the tool analogy, all that I can say is that I own many tools that are only useful for very specific jobs, jobs that I do not do on a regular basis (haven't used that timing light in over a decade).

If it is a tool that you do not need, do not expect to use, and have no real personal desire for, then save the space in your toolbox and don't get it.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Just curious, but what type of Taekwondo certification do you give to your own students? Any particular organization that you go through? How about for Okinawan Goju Ryu?



My TKD students will receive only a house BB.  We only have 1 dan rank, you're either a BB or not.  Seniority, instructorship, and administrative roles in the training group will likely sort out any chain of command issues.

As for Goju-ryu, my teacher was a Jundokan member, but we're not currently affiliated with any outside organization.  He is a 7th dan and destined to stay there, and it's likely that no one under him will ever promote higher, which may or may not be an issue depending on whom you are.  Personally, I am not concerned about the problem myself.  I don't really care about higher rank and at yondan, I have another 20 years before I likely would feel adequate to taking on a 7th dan.  And as I have learned the entire system already along with kobudo, I really don't gain anything from promotion other than gratification of my ego.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It seems an overwhelming burden to prove that EVERYONE practicing tae kwon do can BENEFIT from paying an admittedly non-onerous fee (for a westerner) for certification. A primary justification seems to be the ability to be a part of something bigger which seems like a benefit rather difficult to quantify in real terms. You can likewise be part of something bigger by joining a church, or the AARP, or the ACLU - yet I don't see anything advocating that everyone should join at least one of those groups.


Sure. I am a Christian so I joined the Catholic church (largest Christian church to my knowledge). I'm a Catholic man, so I joined the Knights of Columbus (really, I thought I'd get a sword out of the deal).  I am not retired, so I have no need of AARP at this time. I am a moderate, so I do not affiliate with any activist groups, as most are either hard right or hard left. 

I do practice taekwondo, thus I see a level of value in having Kukki certification.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Is ITF still strong in Poland and Vietnam? I have no idea, but I do know that Vietnam is a very active participant at WTF International Events, and have even hosted its own WTF events over the years. I would think that ITF may have been strong at one point, but has since faded in favor of the Kukkiwon and WTF.



I still have extended family in Vietnam, although I don't know them other than by letter (odd, since I can't read Vietnamese) or a rare phone call.  My father still kept up with the familial connections as he could after the war and our subsequent emigration, and now that he's passed away, I still help ease their lives financially as I can.

One of my cousins is in ITF TKD there and just from what I understand secondhand through him, ITF is still thriving there from the Oh Do Kwan/Vietnam war connection.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It seems an overwhelming burden to prove that EVERYONE practicing tae kwon do can BENEFIT from paying an admittedly non-onerous fee (for a westerner) for certification.  A primary justification seems to be the ability to be a part of something bigger which seems like a benefit rather difficult to quantify in real terms.  You can likewise be part of something bigger by joining a church, or the AARP, or the ACLU - yet I don't see anything advocating that everyone should join at least one of those groups.




The Kukkiwon non-onerous fee is even lower in developing countries. But again, if you don't want Kukkiwon certification for yourself or your students, then simply don't get it. No one is forcing you. To tell you the truth, in my circles, I don't have to convince people with regard to the desirability of Kukkiwon certification. In fact, everyone I know hungers for it and want to know the secret to getting higher and higher Kukkiwon dan, because their instructors seem to be reluctant to given them Kukkiwon rank after a certain point. So at this point, there is a whole group of 4th and maybe 5th Dan, but it becomes very few and far in between after that. 

As for joining a church, AARP or ACLU, I would say if you are involved in the same type of issues that these organizations are involved in, then go ahead and join.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I do practice taekwondo, thus I see a level of value in having Kukki certification.
> 
> Daniel



And that's fine for you.  Surely you can see that to a non-KKW person, the idea that they could benefit from taking a KKW cert might come across as patronizing or arrogant?  Turn it around.  What don't you get an ITF cert or an ATA cert 'just in case'?


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> No one is forcing you. To tell you the truth, in my circles, I don't have to convince people with regard to the desirability of Kukkiwon certification. In fact, everyone I know hungers for it and want to know the secret to getting higher and higher Kukkiwon dan, because their instructors seem to be reluctant to given them Kukkiwon rank after a certain point. So at this point, there is a whole group of 4th and maybe 5th Dan, but it becomes very few and far in between after that.



I know it's an option and a desirable one to many.  Really what I object to is the evangelizing that everyone would benefit from joining the KKW.  Not true in my opinion.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I know it's an option and a desirable one to many.  Really what I object to is the evangelizing that everyone would benefit from joining the KKW.  Not true in my opinion.




I don't know if everyone would "benefit", but I do believe that everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification. It was created to be an inclusive certification for all. But again, if you don't want it, don't get it. No one is forcing you.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> And that's fine for you. Surely you can see that to a non-KKW person, the idea that they could benefit from taking a KKW cert might come across as patronizing or arrogant?


I don't see the idea that someone could benefit as patronizing or arrogant.  If it were phrased in a 'my first dan is better than your first dan because its KKW' manner, then it would be.  

Certificates have their greatest value in the school where you train.  Within the organization, be it KKW, ITF, ATA, etc., it is more of a fraternal sort of thing that opens up doors that might not otherwise be open, or gives common ground with somone else of the same organization.  Outside of the organization, it means nothing except that you have a black belt.  If your school is independent, then skip from in school to outside of the organization.  For many people, meaning within the school is enough.  I happen to be included in that group.  But just because it is enough for me to have a school certificate (both my hapkido and kumdo certs are essentially in school certs) doesn't mean that I don't see benefit in an organizational cert.  

I'm happy as a clam with my no name folding knife that works well for most everything that I use a knife for.  But that Swiss Army Knife sure is cool!  Is it better?  No; probably about equal with regards to being a knife.  But probably once or twice a year, I find myself in a social situation where someone asks if anyone has a bottle opener and nobody does.  About then, that Swiss Army Knife is quite handy to have.  Or would be.. except I don't have one.



dancingalone said:


> Turn it around. What don't you get an ITF cert or an ATA cert 'just in case'?


If taekwondo were my primary art?  Sure.  It would open up opporunities to train with seniors that I would otherwise have no connection to.  If a ITF school or ATA school were willing to bring me in to test for one for a non-onerous fee, I'd be happy to.  

Daniel


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## StudentCarl (Feb 2, 2011)

At 48, I figure I'm good for at least another 30 years of active training, maybe more if I don't count sparring competitively. I'm in a KKW school, and I can't guarantee my school and master will be here as long as I will. I'd rather have it than not. 

I do understand the other side though...same idea as it doesn't matter what color belt you wear because your training is what's inside you...not cloth or paper.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't know if everyone would "benefit", but I do believe that everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification. It was created to be an inclusive certification for all. But again, if you don't want it, don't get it. No one is forcing you.



I'm discussing the idea that everyone should acquire KKW certification.  The fact that it was created to be inclusive doesn't mean all should go ahead and join or that those who didn't or their teachers didn't should feel like lesser taekwondo-in for it.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't see the idea that someone could benefit as patronizing or arrogant.  If it were phrased in a 'my first dan is better than your first dan because its KKW' manner, then it would be.



You don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant?  Especially as when it is assumed a priori that this is 'truth'?  I don't know what to say then.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm happy as a clam with my no name folding knife that works well for most everything that I use a knife for.  But that Swiss Army Knife sure is cool!  Is it better?  No; probably about equal with regards to being a knife.  But probably once or twice a year, I find myself in a social situation where someone asks if anyone has a bottle opener and nobody does.  About then, that Swiss Army Knife is quite handy to have.  Or would be.. except I don't have one.



Then it sounds like you would find utility in acquiring and carrying a Swiss Army knife just in case.  Others may find differently.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> If taekwondo were my primary art?  Sure.  It would open up opporunities to train with seniors that I would otherwise have no connection to.  If a ITF school or ATA school were willing to bring me in to test for one for a non-onerous fee, I'd be happy to.
> Daniel



Well, clearly it would.  Only you can decide if it is worth the added time and money.  Much like the decision-making points others have in trying to decide whether to pursue KKW certification.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> You don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant?


*That* is not what I responded to. 

I responded to *this*: 





dancingalone said:


> Surely you can see that to a non-KKW person, the idea that they could benefit from taking a KKW cert might come across as patronizing or arrogant?


 
and said that "_I don't see the idea that someone could benefit as patronizing or arrogant_." 

I did *not*, however, say that I "_don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant_."



dancingalone said:


> Especially as when it is assumed a priori that this is 'truth'? I don't know what to say then.


How is this being presented as 'this is truth'?

The only time truth has come up was in Terry's 'true taekwondo' thread. 

If you are referring to my posts there, I was pretty clear (or at least tried to be) that I was speaking hypothetically and that as far as I am concerned, any taekwondo descended from the five original kwans is true taekwondo. 

If you are referring to something that Glenn or someone else said, then they will have respond.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> No I don't. I have repeatedly said that if you do not want Kukkiwon certification, fine don't get it. Again, please do not misrepresent me or my position on anything.


 
Glen you do say don't get it but the way you present it say otherwise alot of the times. Maybe I am reading it wrong, if so sorry.:asian:


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Being "worthy enough" has nothing to do with it. Everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification, no matter who they are.


 
puuniu I can understand your point but in reality everybody does not have access to them.I have a set of students with me that there old instructor took the money and never ever got the certificates, of course that has been taken care of but that is still a major problem here in the US. To many instructor never ever turn anything in and when the student seperates they find out. I like this position of yours that everyone should have access to them.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm discussing the idea that everyone should acquire KKW certification.  The fact that it was created to be inclusive doesn't mean all should go ahead and join or that those who didn't or their teachers didn't should feel like lesser taekwondo-in for it.




Again, I don't know about the idea that everyone should get it, more so the idea that I think everyone should have access to it. That is the big problem, people who want it but do not have access, or at least that is how they feel, not forcing everyone to get Kukkiwon certification. That is part of the mission statement of USTC, giving people access to the Kukkiwon who otherwise do not have access. It isn't about making everyone get Kukkiwon certification or forcing everyone to accept Kukkiwon certification. Again, if you don't want it, no one is forcing you to get it.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> puuniu I can understand your point but in reality everybody does not have access to them.I have a set of students with me that there old instructor took the money and never ever got the certificates, of course that has been taken care of but that is still a major problem here in the US. To many instructor never ever turn anything in and when the student seperates they find out. I like this position of yours that everyone should have access to them.



That has always been my position. The shenanigans are what we are trying to fix. I understand that people are getting and got ripped off, lied to, and cheated regarding their Kukkiwon certification. There is much bitterness out there regarding this. I believe in the Kukkiwon and believe that its programs and certification should be accessible to all.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> *Again, I don't know about the idea that everyone should get it, more so the idea that I think everyone should have access to it.* That is the big problem, people who want it but do not have access, or at least that is how they feel, not forcing everyone to get Kukkiwon certification. That is part of the mission statement of USTC, giving people access to the Kukkiwon who otherwise do not have access. It isn't about making everyone get Kukkiwon certification or forcing everyone to accept Kukkiwon certification. Again, if you don't want it, no one is forcing you to get it.



I can agree completely with your first sentence.  If that is your position, I can have no quarrel with it.  Thank you for clarifying this for me.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> You don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant?



Some (not necessarily me) say that it is arrogant to use the name Taekwondo and not adhere to the standards of the organization that adopted the name in the first place, the KTA, and by extension the Kukkiwon and WTF. I hear that comment sometimes. It parallels the argument that if you are not doing the Kukkiwon curriculum up to Kukkiwon standards, then you don't deserve Kukkiwon certification. The idea is that Taekwondo is not a generic term like Karate but instead is a specific term for a specific martial art with a specific curriculum and a specific set of standards. This comes up when we see Taekwondoin  wearing red white and blue, stars and stripes satin uniforms, students playing paddle ball instead of training, high fives, positive reinforcement, made up forms, belt factories, no sparring, no contact, face punching, ground grappling, taekwondo aerobics, taekwondo dance, musical forms, the name karate or kung fu on the door, etc.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> *That* is not what I responded to.
> 
> I responded to *this*:
> 
> ...





Sometimes I think these discussions are more unhelpful than unifying.  I may have misunderstood you and if I so I apologize.  In any case puunui has clarified his position for me, and I would unreservedly endorse everyone having access to KKW certification and training if they wish.


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel simple some of my parent feel strongly about supporting a govorning body that is in a different country, remember some TEXAN'S do not like people from the New York let alone Korea. I do offer it to all that want it and will pay the fee's for it and no I do not have them pay 5,000 for a certificate a first dan is 70.00 and so forth for KKW. My house belt is nothing and if they want AAU it is 100.00.


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Some (not necessarily me) say that it is arrogant to use the name Taekwondo and not adhere to the standards of the organization that adopted the name in the first place, the KTA, and by extension the Kukkiwon and WTF. I hear that comment sometimes. It parallels the argument that if you are not doing the Kukkiwon curriculum up to Kukkiwon standards, then you don't deserve Kukkiwon certification. The idea is that Taekwondo is not a generic term like Karate but instead is a specific term for a specific martial art with a specific curriculum and a specific set of standards. This comes up when we see Taekwondoin  wearing red white and blue, stars and stripes satin uniforms, students playing paddle ball instead of training, high fives, positive reinforcement, made up forms, belt factories, no sparring, no contact, face punching, ground grappling, taekwondo aerobics, taekwondo dance, musical forms, the name karate or kung fu on the door, etc.




I'm of the belief like many here that tae kwon do has become a universal term for Korean striking arts.  While the various romanizations of the name might have some context personally for me, I can't assume anything if someone tells me verbally that they practice 'TKD'.  It could be Korean karate or sport TKD or anything else under the sun for all I know.


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## d1jinx (Feb 2, 2011)

I say we start the *KUKKI-CRUSADES*....

And convert all non-kukki tkd-in!!! :mst:

:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:knight::knight::knight::knight:


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## Kacey (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't know if everyone would "benefit", but I do believe that everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification. It was created to be an inclusive certification for all. But again, if you don't want it, don't get it. No one is forcing you.



I've been training in TKD for 24 years... and I've never had Kukkiwon certification yet, nor have I ever felt a lack.  I do have ITF certification through 3rd Dan, that being where I started; my 4th and 5th Dan certification are though Yom Chi, the organization to which I currently belong.  I still know a lot of people who are in the ITF, and some of the members of Yom Chi were dually promoted in Yom Chi and the ITF, because that is important to them, or to their students, some of whom compete in the ITF.  We are affiliated with several organizations whose members were originally with the ITF/USTF, and we go to each other's events - tournaments, seminars, and testings.  Should anything happen to my organization, I know enough seniors in other organizations who practice the same things we do that it would not be difficult for me to transfer and take my rank with me; some of them were kind enough to be present at my last testing.  



StudentCarl said:


> At 48, I figure I'm good for at least another 30 years of active training, maybe more if I don't count sparring competitively. I'm in a KKW school, and I can't guarantee my school and master will be here as long as I will. I'd rather have it than not.
> 
> I do understand the other side though...same idea as it doesn't matter what color belt you wear because your training is what's inside you...not cloth or paper.



If you are in a Kukkiwon school, then yes, I can see the validity of a Kukkiwon certificate.  But if you're not in a Kukkiwon school, getting a Kukkiwon certificate for the sake of having one may or may not make sense.  If you, or your students, will be participating in Kukkiwon events, then I can see a value to it; if not, I see no point in having it.


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> That has always been my position. The shenanigans are what we are trying to fix. I understand that people are getting and got ripped off, lied to, and cheated regarding their Kukkiwon certification. There is much bitterness out there regarding this. I believe in the Kukkiwon and believe that its programs and certification should be accessible to all.


 
OK I can completely agree with this and I guess I am one of those people that I have had blinders on with you. If I would have really understood this we could have had a better dialog here on MT.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Last year, I and a whole lot of other people (including miguksaram) went on a free tour of Korea (all you had to pay was airfare and the tour people took care of the rest). Anyway, there was one gentleman there who had a dojang 7th Dan and a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. He had been training for I think 40 or more years. He was a nice guy, but you could tell that he was bothered by the fact that he did not possess Kukkiwon certification commensurate with his years of training. People can go the sour grapes route and say that it doesn't mean anything, but for a lot of people, if they were honest, would admit that they desire Kukkiwon certification immensely. Some people out there do all sorts of crazy things to obtain Kukkiwon certification.


I think it is extremely narrow minded to say that people who dont find it necessary to have a kukki cert are "on the sour grapes route". This is where it breaks down, you fail to understand that for thousands and thousands of people world wide there is no reason to have one and they simply couldnt care less about possessing one. Its not sour grapes, its not that their GM has 'tricked' them into thinking one is not necessary, its not because they cant get one etc. The bottom line is, they just dont want/require one. The way you go on about them you'd think they were a solid gold plaque, wich if not in your possession you are forbidden from doing any form of tkd anywhere. Basically, if you dont compete at wtf events it is nothing more than a cheap piece of cardboard, signed by someone who has never even watched you perform any tkd whatsoever.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> No I don't. I have repeatedly said that if you do not want Kukkiwon certification, fine don't get it. Again, please do not misrepresent me or my position on anything.


True, but then you try and insinuate that the reason they dont is because of 'sour grapes' or because their GM has fed them a line. SOME PEOPLE JUST DONT 
PLACE ANY VALUE ON IT. You say everyone should have access to it, based on that should everyone also have access to an ITF cert or a cert from every other org out there, or do you just feel we should all unite providing its only under the kukki. You have made refernces to me in regards to "what I do is closer to the kukki than I think". What are you basing this on? I have mentioned we do different forms, you dont know what our grading requirements are, you dont know anything about the self defence techs we are taught, basically you know nothing of our curriculum except that I mentioned we sometimes spar using the WTF ruleset. So how can you have any idea whatsoever about how close I actually am to the kukki? All I can go on is that EVERY time a kukki student comes and starts at our school the first thing they comment on is how vastly different our club is to what they are used to, and this has happened many , many times. Im not saying what we do is better or worse, but i think you are jumping to conclusions by saying we are closer to the kukki than I think, particularly considering how little you know of my club. No disrespect, but the references to the non affiliated having "sour grapes" is very patronising. We arent idiots, we weigh up the pros and cons and make an educated decision, we are not members of a cult blindly following everything our GM tells us.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think it is extremely narrow minded to say that people who dont find it necessary to have a kukki cert are "on the sour grapes route".




I think it is extremely narrow minded to personalize this to yourself when I was obviously was talking about the gentleman in my story. For him, obviously it was a sour grapes situation. How would you feel, in the company of some very Kukkiwon senior dan holders (including a former president of Taekwondo Australia, who was on the trip that brought back the first hogu from Japan to Korea), visiting the Kukkiwon, getting Kukkiwon awards and citations, and instead of having a Kukkiwon 7th Dan, you have a dojang 7th Dan and a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. He spoke about it briefly, but it was obvious that it bothered him. I don't know if he blamed his teacher (who was also on the trip) or himself, but he obviously was upset about it, from many different ways. 

And just to underline that I wasn't speaking about everyone, here is my statement where people CAN go that route, which obviously they CAN do: "People *can* go the sour grapes route...."

And I sincerely hope that the story I told doesn't end up becoming your story 40 years from now. But again, it is your decision and your choice. If you don't want Kukkiwon certification, don't get it. I won't lose any sleep over it.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You have made refernces to me in regards to "what I do is closer to the kukki than I think". What are you basing this on? I have mentioned we do different forms, you dont know what our grading requirements are, you dont know anything about the self defence techs we are taught, basically you know nothing of our curriculum except that I mentioned we sometimes spar using the WTF ruleset. So how can you have any idea whatsoever about how close I actually am to the kukki? All I can go on is that EVERY time a kukki student comes and starts at our school the first thing they comment on is how vastly different our club is to what they are used to, and this has happened many , many times. Im not saying what we do is better or worse, but i think you are jumping to conclusions by saying we are closer to the kukki than I think, particularly considering how little you know of my club.




Ok, fine, what you are doing doesn't fall within the realm of Kukki Taekwondo. In fact, I think what you do is so different, that it is probably a good idea that you DON'T get Kukkiwon certification. What do you need it for, right?


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## msmitht (Feb 2, 2011)

My good friend has a son training in tkd in san diego. The kid took his bb exam in november. Did taeguek 7 &  8. Did some kind of sparring and broke a board. He got a school cert and nothing else. The family then moved to oceanside and the gm at his new school said "no kukkiwon? White belt."
I started a thread called "wow" about a group of kids who came to me seeking certification. Read that for more info.
Personally I go to a diamond dealer when I want a good diamond. Home depot for glass. 
If your school is teaching kukkiwon poomsae, kukkiwon kibon and kyoroogi then YES they should expect a kukkiwon cert. Otherwise the teacher is a fraud and should go back to their root art. 
If you do other styles of tkd then that organizations cert should be enough for you. If you want a kkw cert then find a kkw 4th dan or higher and start training.
Btw troubleenough, is your name shaun by any chance?


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Ok, fine, what you are doing doesn't fall within the realm of Kukki Taekwondo. In fact, I think what you do is so different, that it is probably a good idea that you DON'T get Kukkiwon certification. What do you need it for, right?


Thats the point Ive been trying to make for the past 2 weeks. IF I did something that slightly resembled kukki tkd then I would see why having a kukki cert could oneday come in handy, BUT considering I dont then I really dont see any point.


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## leadleg (Feb 2, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats the point Ive been trying to make for the past 2 weeks. IF I did something that slightly resembled kukki tkd then I would see why having a kukki cert could oneday come in handy, BUT considering I dont then I really dont see any point.


 I should stay out of this but cannot help myself, if you do the palgwe's,they are KKW forms, they may not use them anymore but those of us that learned them still do,because they are our old KKW forms. You do Koryo and other yudanja forms,I think you said, those are KKW. You do a style of your own sparring based on WTF, you use Koeran terminology for your kicks,they are TKD just like KKW,so even if you don't see it you are very closely resembling KKW. That is because at one time a long time ago your school was KKW. 
You say people come to your school from other KKW schools and say things are very different, people come from KKW schools to mine and say the same thing.All schools are different,we share the same forms,and teminology but our s/d and routines may differ greatly. 
Have you ever trained at another school? I just wonder if all your experience is what your instructors say or what you have personally experienced. 
Tell us what specifically sets you apart from other tkd schools,that would be so different to what ,say I do. 
Kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomse, free sparring, hand striking drills ,breaking..........


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## leadleg (Feb 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Daniel simple some of my parent feel strongly about supporting a govorning body that is in a different country, remember some TEXAN'S do not like people from the New York let alone Korea. I do offer it to all that want it and will pay the fee's for it and no I do not have them pay 5,000 for a certificate a first dan is 70.00 and so forth for KKW. My house belt is nothing and if they want AAU it is 100.00.


 Your house belt should be free,the aau should pay you for the advertisment,with that you should get all your bb's kkw. Texans who still resent a foreign country should have their kids doing barrel races and going to rodeo clown school,not that there kairotty. 
I was born in FT.Worth,grew up in White Settlement Texas and by god I hate redknecks.


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## leadleg (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm of the belief like many here that tae kwon do has become a universal term for Korean striking arts. While the various romanizations of the name might have some context personally for me, I can't assume anything if someone tells me verbally that they practice 'TKD'. It could be Korean karate or sport TKD or anything else under the sun for all I know.


 If they are KKW you can assume at least they should know those specific requirements.
 That does not mean they have had quality instructors though.Nor does it mean someone did not hand them a certificate either.But if they earned that certificate they know how to fit in and train at any TKD school.
 When we hire carpenters we get all kinds of people who say they are carpenters,some because they own a hammer,some are good,but if they have a union card we know they at least know what the union teaches.That still doesn't mean they will be great,just that they were taught certain basic skills and will be able to fit in our work environment. 
When a BBelt wants to start with us I ask if they are KKW if not I don't even ask to see a certificate,that is the only one that matters to me.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 3, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I should stay out of this but cannot help myself, if you do the palgwe's,they are KKW forms, they may not use them anymore but those of us that learned them still do,because they are our old KKW forms. You do Koryo and other yudanja forms,I think you said, those are KKW. You do a style of your own sparring based on WTF, you use Koeran terminology for your kicks,they are TKD just like KKW,so even if you don't see it you are very closely resembling KKW. That is because at one time a long time ago your school was KKW.
> You say people come to your school from other KKW schools and say things are very different, people come from KKW schools to mine and say the same thing.All schools are different,we share the same forms,and teminology but our s/d and routines may differ greatly.
> Have you ever trained at another school? I just wonder if all your experience is what your instructors say or what you have personally experienced.
> Tell us what specifically sets you apart from other tkd schools,that would be so different to what ,say I do.
> Kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomse, free sparring, hand striking drills ,breaking..........


well firstly, kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomsae, free sparring, hand striking drills, breaking.................are all things done at most schools, I did all those things when I did karate as a kid. We dont use korean words for kicks. In fact, in manny's posts where he talks about kicks using korean names I cant understand a thing. Our time in dan grades is different. we dont have "skip dans". I had never heard the term 'poomsae' until I came here. Punches in sparring are expected to be delivered as often as kicks, maybe even more. We dont do points sparring (we tried at the club championships but it didnt really work). I have trained with kukki guys and what they do looks different , particularly the shorter stances, our stances are always very deep similar to when I did karate as a kid. they also have a much bigger emphasis on higher kicks than we do, all our kicking drills are aimed between the knee and solar plexus, if we want to practice head kicks we do it in our own time. As for our instructors, they never bag out on the kukki, in fact they dont even discuss politics, orgs etc. We just get there and train and dont worry about that stuff. As I said recently, when discussing the kukki with a 4th dan at my club recently, he replied "whats a kukkiwon?", he wasnt trying to be disrespectful, he had just never heard of them. Im not saying we are completely different to a kukki club, but I would be way out of my depth in one, it would take me so long to try and learn a new form set alone that I may as well just start over at white belt. The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats the point Ive been trying to make for the past 2 weeks. IF I did something that slightly resembled kukki tkd then I would see why having a kukki cert could oneday come in handy, BUT considering I dont then I really dont see any point.



then don't get it.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> well firstly, kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomsae, free sparring, hand striking drills, breaking.................are all things done at most schools, I did all those things when I did karate as a kid. We dont use korean words for kicks. In fact, in manny's posts where he talks about kicks using korean names I cant understand a thing. Our time in dan grades is different. we dont have "skip dans". I had never heard the term 'poomsae' until I came here. Punches in sparring are expected to be delivered as often as kicks, maybe even more. We dont do points sparring (we tried at the club championships but it didnt really work). I have trained with kukki guys and what they do looks different , particularly the shorter stances, our stances are always very deep similar to when I did karate as a kid. they also have a much bigger emphasis on higher kicks than we do, all our kicking drills are aimed between the knee and solar plexus, if we want to practice head kicks we do it in our own time. As for our instructors, they never bag out on the kukki, in fact they dont even discuss politics, orgs etc. We just get there and train and dont worry about that stuff. As I said recently, when discussing the kukki with a 4th dan at my club recently, he replied "whats a kukkiwon?", he wasnt trying to be disrespectful, he had just never heard of them. Im not saying we are completely different to a kukki club, but I would be way out of my depth in one, it would take me so long to try and learn a new form set alone that I may as well just start over at white belt. The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.




Maybe your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing. I mean if what you are doing is so completely unrecognizable to Kukki Taekwondoin, then perhaps a name change is in order. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing. I mean if what you are doing is so completely unrecognizable to Kukki Taekwondoin, then perhaps a name change is in order. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


Perhaps the ITF should change their name also, as they seem different to kukki. And didnt dancingalone say recently that he doesnt train high/spinning kicks? so maybe he needs a name change also. I know, lets change every club's name from tkd unless they are kukki affiliated. I know someone who'd love that idea actually I appreciate that viewpoint because Ive always been told 'old school' tkd looked very similar to karate, and I have said here for ages that what we do I consider to be 'old school' tkd, so it looks like thats pretty accurate.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> On the issue of devaluation, what someone else has has no bearing or effect on you or me. Comparing yourself to others is not the martial arts way; comparing yourself to what you can be is the martial arts way.



Not quite. I agree that you should worry about what you can be. In that we agree.
But when it comes to certification, it matters what other people do because they devalue the certification. If people get their certification very easily and it becomes just a matter of paying the fee, then the certificate is cheapened to the point where it becomes insignificant.

This is true in business world as well.
Cisco for example has several levels of certification. Anyone with a bit of motivation can get the first one. They even teach it in some schools and organize the testing so that practically everyone has it. It doesn't matter what the certificate means to you. If it makes you feel great then good for you. But for the purpose of certification, the CCNA is not impressive.

The one certification that everybody in that business craves is the CCIE. It is the last one to get, you have to prove yourself in a written exam and in the 'torture room' with people asking you to make the most hare brained configurations with exotic protocols and equipment. those tests are all done in person in front of a board, and the pass rate is under 10%, with many people needing several tried to make it. And then you need to recertify regularly.

As a certification, that one is worth its weight in 1000 dollar bills. Because that is what you'll be earning if you make it. Very few people do, and the ones that do are the cream of the networking crop. I've worked with one of them. He charged 2000 euros per 8 hour day.

It is irrelevant how you feel about your certification. The only important feature of certification is how it influences other people. Otherwise there would not need to be any certification at all.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 3, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> remember some TEXAN'S do not like people from the New York let alone Korea.



Absolutely horrifying! Sometimes I complain about England, but at least racism/xenophobia like that is really a thing of the past (restricted to those over 60-70 really).


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## andyjeffries (Feb 3, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> I loaded them on 6 JAN (missed the 5 jan Print date) and was expecting them right after the 20th print date.  But here it is the 2nd of FEB and still not processed yet.  And they are closed till the 5th.  Sheez.  I got spoiled when they started popping them out within 2-3 weeks.  Now I am having panic attacks of the days when it took 3 months to get them back......:erg:



Weird... My grandmaster applied for my latest one in late December, we also missed the 5th print but it was sent after the 20th and I'm currently chasing DHL to get the darn thing delivered to the correct address. Maybe it's you? ;-) ;-)


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## terryl965 (Feb 3, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Absolutely horrifying! Sometimes I complain about England, but at least racism/xenophobia like that is really a thing of the past (restricted to those over 60-70 really).


 
It was meant as a joke,,,


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> On the issue of devaluation, what someone else has has no bearing or effect on you or me. Comparing yourself to others is not the martial arts way; comparing yourself to what you can be is the martial arts way.


 
Which is exactly why some (many?) really mean it when we say that kukki certification is irrelvent.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 3, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> It was meant as a joke,,,



I assumed you were serious, I can only go on how us Brits view you Texans ;-)  





(the irony is also a joke and was intended before anyone jumps on me)


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I assumed you were serious, I can only go on how us Brits view you Texans ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
:lol: It's just been on the news that they are bringing the Dallas series back! Seriously!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12342985

it formed every non Texans opinion on Texas lol


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing.


Probably because he's not the school owner. 


puunui said:


> I mean if what you are doing is so completely unrecognizable to Kukki Taekwondoin, then perhaps a name change is in order. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


I doubt that it is unrecognizable to a KKW practitioner, depending upon their age.  Older practitioners like ourselves might recognize it as being taekwondo with a karate feel, something that seems to be present in most, if not all, of the US.  You would call it a noncompliant school.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> well firstly, kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomsae, free sparring, hand striking drills, breaking.................are all things done at most schools, I did all those things when I did karate as a kid. We dont use korean words for kicks. In fact, in manny's posts where he talks about kicks using korean names I cant understand a thing. Our time in dan grades is different. we dont have "skip dans". I had never heard the term 'poomsae' until I came here. Punches in sparring are expected to be delivered as often as kicks, maybe even more. We dont do points sparring (we tried at the club championships but it didnt really work). I have trained with kukki guys and what they do looks different , particularly the shorter stances, our stances are always very deep similar to when I did karate as a kid. they also have a much bigger emphasis on higher kicks than we do, all our kicking drills are aimed between the knee and solar plexus, if we want to practice head kicks we do it in our own time. As for our instructors, they never bag out on the kukki, in fact they dont even discuss politics, orgs etc. We just get there and train and dont worry about that stuff. As I said recently, when discussing the kukki with a 4th dan at my club recently, he replied "whats a kukkiwon?", he wasnt trying to be disrespectful, he had just never heard of them. Im not saying we are completely different to a kukki club, but I would be way out of my depth in one, it would take me so long to try and learn a new form set alone that I may as well just start over at white belt. The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.


What I am reading is that your school uses English terms, was either a KKW school at one time or someone along the way learned palgwes and it stuck, but either way is independent now, and that Shotokan-like deep stances were picked up somewhere along the line.

Korean terminology is an easy enough fix. Google 'taekwondo terminology' and you'll find plenty of printable termonology lists.

As for the shorter stances, no they are not walking stances. They are front stances, back stances, etc. but they are not performed as deeply as are done in Shotokan.



ralphmcpherson said:


> Perhaps the ITF should change their name also, as they seem different to kukki. And didnt dancingalone say recently that he doesnt train high/spinning kicks? so maybe he needs a name change also. *I know, lets change every club's name from tkd unless they are kukki affiliated.*


His comment wasn't about KKW affiliation but about what you do being so different and more similar to 'karate.'  The fact that you are doing Kukkiwon forms (Palgwe pumse) is at least one of the reasons why he advocates you seeking a KKW cert.  Whether or not that is reason enough for you is your call.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I know someone who'd love that idea actually I appreciate that viewpoint because Ive always been told 'old school' tkd looked very similar to karate, and I have said here for ages that what we do I consider to be 'old school' tkd, so it looks like thats pretty accurate.


Old school TKD is similar to karate: Which karate? Okinawan or Japanese? And then which ryu? Karate has far more distinct 'styles' under its banner than Taekwondo does. The question is rhetorical; I'm not pressing you for an answer. But some karate ryus look very, very different, so saying that it looks like karate is not particularly specific. 

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ....or someone along the way learned palgwes and it stuck, but either way is independent now, and that Shotokan-like deep stances were picked up somewhere along the line.
> ....
> As for the shorter stances, no they are not walking stances.  They are front stances, back stances, etc. but they are not performed as deeply as are done in Shotokan.



As an aside, I viewed various versions of the Palgwe forms on Youtube last night as a result of participating on another thread.  It is very common to see deeper stances in their performance compared to the Taegeuk.  Are these people definitely out of compliance with KKW standards?  I know puunui has said the Palgwe were intended to have the same high stances as the Taegeuk.


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## d1jinx (Feb 3, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.


 
Do you walk normally or take long stretched out strides when moving about freely during the day and through-out life?  If you walk normally, then you have done a walking stance since you were big enough to walk.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> As an aside, I viewed various versions of the Palgwe forms on Youtube last night as a result of participating on another thread. It is very common to see deeper stances in their performance compared to the Taegeuk. Are these people definitely out of compliance with KKW standards? I know puunui has said the Palgwe were intended to have the same high stances as the Taegeuk.


While I am not in a position to answer authoritatively regarding Palgwe pumse, I believe that the answer is yes.  

I think that a lot of people in that time period adopted the deep stances because of the visibility of karate and because the deep stances served to strengthen the legs, particularly in the US, where karate was a known quantity and nobody knew what taekwondo was.

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Feb 3, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Weird... My grandmaster applied for my latest one in late December, we also missed the 5th print but it was sent after the 20th and I'm currently chasing DHL to get the darn thing delivered to the correct address. Maybe it's you? ;-) ;-)


 
Each country is different.  I loaded mine after Dec and after Jan 5th.  Never had an issue before.  I bet they come dated 5 Feb. and it would still be the same amount of time that you guys waited... about a month.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

leadleg said:


> If they are KKW you can assume at least they should know those specific requirements.
> That does not mean they have had quality instructors though.Nor does it mean someone did not hand them a certificate either.But if they earned that certificate they know how to fit in and train at any TKD school.
> When we hire carpenters we get all kinds of people who say they are carpenters,some because they own a hammer,some are good,but if they have a union card we know they at least know what the union teaches.That still doesn't mean they will be great,just that they were taught certain basic skills and will be able to fit in our work environment.
> When a BBelt wants to start with us I ask if they are KKW if not I don't even ask to see a certificate,that is the only one that matters to me.




No offense intended, but that's the exact kind of snobbery that can be off-putting.  It should suffice to say that KKW certification is relevant to *YOU* because it can be a measure of sorts for the physical skills important to *YOUR* practice of TKD.

Others can and do find differently, in which case another certification (or even none) might be more preferable to them.


----------



## andyjeffries (Feb 3, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> Each country is different.  I loaded mine after Dec and after Jan 5th.  Never had an issue before.  I bet they come dated 5 Feb. and it would still be the same amount of time that you guys waited... about a month.



Well, keeping my fingers crossed that they come through soon for you.  Hopefully at least my message should at least reassure you that they aren't back to the delays of old...


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Perhaps the ITF should change their name also, as they seem different to kukki.



So you want to keep the name Taekwondo, train using the Kukkiwon poomsae, spar using the WTF rules, and yet you say you are not part of Kukki Taekwondo?


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> As an aside, I viewed various versions of the Palgwe forms on Youtube last night as a result of participating on another thread.  It is very common to see deeper stances in their performance compared to the Taegeuk.  Are these people definitely out of compliance with KKW standards?  I know puunui has said the Palgwe were intended to have the same high stances as the Taegeuk.




There are no walking stances in the palgwae poomsae, but there are front stance and back stance, which should be performed the same in the taeguek and palgwae poomsae.


----------



## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> But when it comes to certification, it matters what other people do because they devalue the certification. If people get their certification very easily and it becomes just a matter of paying the fee, then the certificate is cheapened to the point where it becomes insignificant.



But then who is to determine what the standards are for certification? You? If someone wishes to promote another person to a specified rank, who are you to argue about it? What if you are promoting students to dan rank and another instructor starts criticizing you saying that your standards are too low and and that you are cheapening and devaluing the dan rank. Is his statement valid? I think that if someone is dumb enough to buy rank, then it devalues the person who bought rank, not the certification. 




Bruno@MT said:


> It is irrelevant how you feel about your certification. The only important feature of certification is how it influences other people.



Tell that to the guy who has the dojang 7th Dan and Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. 




Bruno@MT said:


> Otherwise there would not need to be any certification at all.



We just might be moving to a situation where that might become a possibility.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which is exactly why some (many?) really mean it when we say that kukki certification is irrelvent.




Then don't get Kukkiwon certification, assuming you are able and have access.


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## leadleg (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> No offense intended, but that's the exact kind of snobbery that can be off-putting. It should suffice to say that KKW certification is relevant to *YOU* because it can be a measure of sorts for the physical skills important to *YOUR* practice of TKD.
> 
> Others can and do find differently, in which case another certification (or even none) might be more preferable to them.


 I am not trying to be snobby,but as you said for my situation,KKW/WTF stylist, any other paper does not tell me anything. 
I have had many bb's come to my school, we used to be the only TKD around, from ata itf and joe's tkd,each had certification but none new the same requirements.Even the same certificate (example itf) would not mean the same,some bobbed up and down some didn't,some hissed some did not.They all could fit in after a while and worked to get their KKW but it was not like a KKW certified BB came in the door, family member! 
 By the way this could be another thread but BB'S from other schools are a pain to train.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I am not trying to be snobby,but as you said for my situation,KKW/WTF stylist, any other paper does not tell me anything.
> I have had many bb's come to my school, we used to be the only TKD around, from ata itf and joe's tkd,each had certification but none new the same requirements.Even the same certificate (example itf) would not mean the same,some bobbed up and down some didn't,some hissed some did not.They all could fit in after a while and worked to get their KKW but it was not like a KKW certified BB came in the door, family member!
> By the way this could be another thread but BB'S from other schools are a pain to train.



It's an interesting conundrum as tae kwon do continues to evolve and fragment at the same time.  It's true enough that what Olympic hopefuls focus on is 100% in the opposite direction from what I teach in my tae kwon do.  

I agree that trying to teach a student with prior experience elsewhere can be challenging, particular if we have specific curriculum we want them to learn AND groove in.


----------



## leadleg (Feb 3, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> well firstly, kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomsae, free sparring, hand striking drills, breaking.................are all things done at most schools, I did all those things when I did karate as a kid. We dont use korean words for kicks. In fact, in manny's posts where he talks about kicks using korean names I cant understand a thing. Our time in dan grades is different. we dont have "skip dans". I had never heard the term 'poomsae' until I came here. Punches in sparring are expected to be delivered as often as kicks, maybe even more. We dont do points sparring (we tried at the club championships but it didnt really work). I have trained with kukki guys and what they do looks different , particularly the shorter stances, our stances are always very deep similar to when I did karate as a kid. they also have a much bigger emphasis on higher kicks than we do, all our kicking drills are aimed between the knee and solar plexus, if we want to practice head kicks we do it in our own time. As for our instructors, they never bag out on the kukki, in fact they dont even discuss politics, orgs etc. We just get there and train and dont worry about that stuff. As I said recently, when discussing the kukki with a 4th dan at my club recently, he replied "whats a kukkiwon?", he wasnt trying to be disrespectful, he had just never heard of them. Im not saying we are completely different to a kukki club, but I would be way out of my depth in one, it would take me so long to try and learn a new form set alone that I may as well just start over at white belt. The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.


I took karate(shotokan style) as a child we did not do kicking drills or breaking.Our self defense was our kicking and hand strikes,including scratching.It was not like TKD.
Later I did mu duk kwan wtf tkd there our stances were very wide and low,you needed a stepladder to get out of the backstances. 
The idea that kicking and fighting should not be as natural as walking is not KKW,you are correct there.
As for learning new forms, I do not get the problem,after wrapping your brain aroung doing those floor patterns it is easy to pick up new ones.Was it that hard learning the palgwe's? 
Lastly you did say your instructors yelled out" this aint olympic style sparring you see on tv" as a way to remind you to keep your hands up so that sounds like bagging to me.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I am sorry to keep coming back to this but you are acting like you are doing some original style but are actually doing half *** kkw tkd.


In fairness to Ralph, he's describing what is being taught in his dojang and sees it as being different from how Kukki taekwondo is described.

I suspect that there are number of outside influences.  Deep stances are reminiscent of Shotokan.  Punching is emphasized, so I would be curious as to whether the punching resembles taekwondo punching or western boxing punching.  It is not uncommon for older schools in the US to have deep stances and western boxing influencing the hand techniques.  Such schools found their groove and simply kept doing what they were doing.  Neither good nor bad; it simply is a product of the time period.  Ten to twenty years from now, we'll be having the same discussions with people describing 'old school taekwondo' as having a larger grappling and groundfighting element because their school added it at a time when grappling and groundfighting had become popular and simply retained their curriculum.  

Because most students are not versed on what taekwondo historically is or isn't, they will simply assume that because their sixty year old master who's been training in 'taekwondo' for forty years does it that it must be old school.

Daniel


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## leadleg (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It's an interesting conundrum as tae kwon do continues to evolve and fragment at the same time. It's true enough that what Olympic hopefuls focus on is 100% in the opposite direction from what I teach in my tae kwon do.
> 
> I agree that trying to teach a student with prior experience elsewhere can be challenging, particular if we have specific curriculum we want them to learn AND groove in.


In most of the KKW schools I know of the competiton students are about 10 percent of the total student base,I know of some competition only schools who are larger but those students are mostly like your high school sports jocks.  
Our school is out to turn out well rounded martial artist, if you want to compete we have classes we do just for that,I love to coach fighters and I like seeing my students winning poomse competitions.
 If you want to advance in grade you must learn all the requirements whether you are a competitor or not.If you are not a competitor you must still spar. If you wish to become an instructor you must at some point compete in a national tournament.
 All our bb's know and are strong in self defense and free sparring,training in knees and elbows,and most everything in between.Ever since aids came about I quit teaching biting 
I am a bb in HKD so I teach a lot of s/d from that prospective as well as seperate HKD classes that any TKD bb can attend free. 
So while we are a KKW style TKD school we are just as much or more about martial arts in general, and I see a lot of schools that are similar. I would not generalise too much about what a school is like just because they like to do full contact style olympic sparring,or do natural stances like KKW stylist do.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you? Come on... be honest.


 
No.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## leadleg (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In fairness to Ralph, he's describing what is being taught in his dojang and sees it as being different from how Kukki taekwondo is described.
> 
> I suspect that there are number of outside influences. Deep stances are reminiscent of Shotokan. Punching is emphasized, so I would be curious as to whether the punching resembles taekwondo punching or western boxing punching. It is not uncommon for older schools in the US to have deep stances and western boxing influencing the hand techniques. Such schools found their groove and simply kept doing what they were doing. Neither good nor bad; it simply is a product of the time period. Ten to twenty years from now, we'll be having the same discussions with people describing 'old school taekwondo' as having a larger grappling and groundfighting element because their school added it at a time when grappling and groundfighting had become popular and simply retained their curriculum.
> 
> ...


 Darn,tried to edit that last comment out but not in time,I apologise to Ralph for the crass statement.


----------



## Miles (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It's an interesting conundrum as tae kwon do continues to evolve and fragment at the same time.


 
I don't think TKD is fragmenting, and a huge reason for what I perceive as unity is the Kukkiwon.  I do however, believe TKD is evolving, and that's a good thing from my perspective.

But back to my original point.  I view the Kukkiwon as a unifying force within TKD.  Through its dan certification, its Instructor certification, its website, its books and videos, the Kukkiwon is trying to have Taekwondoin perform a given syllabus in a particular manner with the same terminology.  I understand that many people like to take shots at the Kukkiwon for whatever reason, but my personal experience has always been overwhelmingly positive.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> No.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


I beg to differ.  Planetary implosion will affect us all!  



Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

When does something evolve (or devolve or stay static compared to the parent) to the point that it no longer deserves the label?

Not sure about Ralph's situation, but I teach the General Choi forms, realizing they are called the Chang Hon forms.  At the same time, I'm very uncomfortable saying I teach Chang Hon because I do not teach the forms according to the last specifications General Choi left.  I also add in a good amount of kata ideas from Okinawan karate which would certainly separate our TKD from most others.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'll let Glenn answer for himself, but I do not think it *better*. I do think that if you are teaching Kukkiwon taekwondo, it raises an eyebrow for me if you aren't issuing them, but outside of that, I don't see it as necessarilly better.


 
This is interesting, and I don't say I disagree (nor do I necessarily agree). But how does this differ from having someone raise their eyebrow at you for only issuing a school certificate for hapkido and (IIRC) kumdo?

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing. I mean if what you are doing is so completely unrecognizable to Kukki Taekwondoin, then perhaps a name change is in order. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


 
Glenn, have you considered asking the KKW to change the name of the art they practice to Taesoodo? Since, obviously, what they're doing isn't so completely different from what Gen. Choi envisioned Taekwon-Do as being? You can't have your cake and eat it, too, after all. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

Miles said:


> I don't think TKD is fragmenting, and a huge reason for what I perceive as unity is the Kukkiwon.  I do however, believe TKD is evolving, and that's a good thing from my perspective.
> 
> But back to my original point.  I view the Kukkiwon as a unifying force within TKD.  Through its dan certification, its Instructor certification, its website, its books and videos, the Kukkiwon is trying to have Taekwondoin perform a given syllabus in a particular manner with the same terminology.  I understand that many people like to take shots at the Kukkiwon for whatever reason, but my personal experience has always been overwhelmingly positive.



Well, from my perspective, I continue to see people study various TKD styles, and new ones are being formed all the time.  Some of these will stand the test of time, most surely won't, but I don't ever envision everyone doing the same thing, learning the same curricula or even holding membership in the same organization.

I also believe the KKW can be a positive influence on TKD.  Build something good and people will line up to join.  No need to push anything else.


----------



## DMcHenry (Feb 3, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you? Come on... be honest.


 
No, not at all.  I must admit my base/main style is TangSooDo, but I do help teach in a KKW dojang and have a KKW Cert.  My original goal was to be able to work with KKW TKD transfers into TSD and help them maintain their certifications.  I am interested in practicing and keeping up on the KKW poomse, but not currently interested in getting KKW certification.  It's just not personally something I'm interested in, I just enjoy the training and being able to relate to other TKD students.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> This is interesting, and I don't say I disagree (nor do I necessarily agree). But how does this differ from having someone raise their eyebrow at you for only issuing a school certificate for hapkido and (IIRC) kumdo?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


It differs because one is a specific organizational curriculum (KKW TKD) and the other two are martial arts with multiple organizations, flavors, and independents, neither of which have a KKW equivalent.  I would also raise an eyebrow if the school taught an ATA curriculum but did not issue ATA certification.

My certificates from my GM are essentially school certificates because even though they say Korean _______ Federation on them, his federations are basically just him with two schools plus a handful of senior students teaching on their own who have him sign off on dan certs. The curriculum that is taught in both is assembled by GM Kim. None of the material is 'original' with regards to techniques, but the curriculum does not directly follow that of any established organization.

What raises an eyebrow for me is the full usage of an organization's curriculum without giving students certification from that organiztion. That tells me that either the school owner is not high enough rank to issue a KKW cert (and if its a small club with no fees, but a kitty for nominal expenses and pizza, that is fine), has the juice to issue the cert but chooses not to for his or her own reasons, that the instructor himself has a school certificate of a higher grade but has no KKW ranking, or that the instructor is a practitioner of another art and learned the KKW forms on Youtube or from a book in order to cash in on taekwondo. Seen that done once by a Shotokan guy who deceded to cash in on Tai chi. 

Daniel


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I beg to differ. Planetary implosion will affect us all!
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel


 
Wrong again! Apparently your KKW certificate is quite useless when it comes to surviving having the planet getting destroyed out from underneath you. That's just one more reason why I won't get one of those things!

Pax,

Chris


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## leadleg (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> When does something evolve (or devolve or stay static compared to the parent) to the point that it no longer deserves the label?
> 
> Not sure about Ralph's situation, but I teach the General Choi forms, realizing they are called the Chang Hon forms. At the same time, I'm very uncomfortable saying I teach Chang Hon because I do not teach the forms according to the last specifications General Choi left. I also add in a good amount of kata ideas from Okinawan karate which would certainly separate our TKD from most others.


This is an interesting point,while I teach many things not in the KKW requirements,I do teach all the requirements for KKW so consider myself KKW stylist. We teach weapons also some Chinese some Japanese etc.. 
I still consider my school TKD even though all these add ons have nothing to do with TKD. 
I wonder what these poor students will think they do after generations of them are teaching later on.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> *What raises an eyebrow for me is the full usage of an organization's curriculum without giving students certification from that organiztion.* That tells me that either the school owner is not high enough rank to issue a KKW cert (and if its a small club with no fees, but a kitty for nominal expenses and pizza, that is fine), has the juice to issue the cert but chooses not to for his or her own reasons, that the instructor himself has a school certificate of a higher grade but has no KKW ranking, or that the instructor is a practitioner of another art and learned the KKW forms on Youtube or from a book in order to cash in on taekwondo. Seen that done once by a Shotokan guy who deceded to cash in on Tai chi.



But who does that?  People who leave organizations generally change their curriculum, if only for legal reasons if we're talking ATA.  

With regard to KKW, I thought the requirements were quite minimal anyway, like learning the Taegeuks, and thus most schools add additional material on their own.  I don't think it's unusual for people to drift away from the KKW while still teaching KKW forms, albeit not to the KKW's current poomsae specs.  GM Kim Soo for example uses the Palgwe forms in his Chayon-ryu system while also teaching the karate kata and chuan fa sets.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It differs because one is a specific organizational curriculum (KKW TKD) and the other two are martial arts with multiple organizations, flavors, and independents, neither of which have a KKW equivalent. I would also raise an eyebrow if the school taught an ATA curriculum but did not issue ATA certification.


 
But there are people on this thread who are questioning why one would teach KKW patterns, do KKW sparring, etc. but belong to a _different_ organization. Which shows that there are, in fact, multiple organizations that do KKW Taekwon-Do, just like there are multiple organizations that teach ITF Taekwon-Do. The KKW isn't and has never been the only game in town even for KKW Taekwon-Do. 

The KKW and the ITF are the biggest and best known of the organizations that teach their respective styles, but they certainly aren't the only ones. Your argument about hapkido and kumdo can certainly be made regarding getting certified by the ITF or KKW. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Wrong again! Apparently your KKW certificate is quite useless when it comes to surviving having the planet getting destroyed out from underneath you. That's just one more reason why I won't get one of those things!
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Kukki certification causes kukki rankholders' portions of the planet to be out of phase with the rest of the planet, thus insuring Kukki-continuance.  Should the planet actually implode, the Kukki parts of the Earth will form a smaller sphere that will hurtle through space, with a space ship called the Kukki-1 to explore where we're heading (Or was that Space 1999?).

Additionally, each new blackbelt also pushes back planetary implosion by one year, and each new degree earned still another year.

Thus the Kukkiwon slogan:

*The Kukkiwon: Staving Off Planetary Implosion Since 1973.*

Daniel


----------



## granfire (Feb 3, 2011)

Wasn't there a time when you just send them your money and got the paper in return?

Something like 'getting your BB registered'

But I might have gotten that wrong, happened once or twice before.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> But there are people on this thread who are questioning why one would teach KKW patterns, do KKW sparring, etc. but belong to a _different_ organization. Which shows that there are, in fact, multiple organizations that do KKW Taekwon-Do, just like there are multiple organizations that teach ITF Taekwon-Do. The KKW isn't and has never been the only game in town even for KKW Taekwon-Do.
> 
> The KKW and the ITF are the biggest and best known of the organizations that teach their respective styles, but they certainly aren't the only ones. Your argument about hapkido and kumdo can certainly be made regarding getting certified by the ITF or KKW.
> 
> ...


Chris, 

I said raise an eyebrow, not write off or consider then frauds.  

I suspect that there are *far* more independents teaching Chang Hon TKD than there are teaching Kukki taekwondo.  Every independent school that I have ever visited taught Chang Hon in some fashion.  Browsing the web and looking at TKD school websites, you will find a lot of indie schools or smaller organizations promoting Chang Hon taekwondo, with few, if any, promoting Kukki taekwondo.

It is normative for non ITF schools to teach Chang Hon taekwondo.  It is not the norm for non KKW schools to teach KKW TKD or for non ATA schools to teach Songahm TKD.  Songahm is more problematic because the ATA can potentially sue the school owner for using Songahm forms outside of the ATA.  With Kukki curriculum, it isn't problematic; simply unusual.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It is normative for non ITF schools to teach Chang Hon taekwondo.  It is not the norm for non KKW schools to teach KKW TKD or for non ATA schools to teach Songahm TKD.  Songahm is more problematic because the ATA can potentially sue the school owner for using Songahm forms outside of the ATA.  With Kukki curriculum, it isn't problematic; simply unusual.



I think this is just due to the relative youth of the KKW forms and also because KKW TKD has experienced less fragmentation historically.  However I would not be surprised to see it happening more frequently.

Last night I saw various people on Youtube performing Palgwes.  They were wearing crossover uniforms, so I'm inclined to think they are independent.  I even saw someone doing Taegeuks with an Independent Taekwondo Association banner on his walls.  That's John Pelligrini's group and I've heard he can get his people KKW certs but they're not required at all there.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> But who does that? People who leave organizations generally change their curriculum, if only for legal reasons if we're talking ATA.
> 
> With regard to KKW, I thought the requirements were quite minimal anyway, like learning the Taegeuks, and thus most schools add additional material on their own. I don't think it's unusual for people to drift away from the KKW while still teaching KKW forms, albeit not to the KKW's current poomsae specs. GM Kim Soo for example uses the Palgwe forms in his Chayon-ryu system while also teaching the karate kata and chuan fa sets.


They are minimal.  The defining factor is Taegeuk or Palgwe pumse and WTF sparring.  That's about it.

It isn't that nobody does, but from what I have seen, as I said to Chris, it is unusual.  Most indie schools or small orgs are invariably Chang Hon in some way, shape, or form.

Also, as I said to Chris, it would raise an eyebrow; not cause me to write them off as a fraud or inferior.  Because it is not normative, however, I would be asking the reasons why this came to be.  

You don't really break off from the Kukkiwon because you don't join the Kukkiwon.  You really can't break away.  You're simply certified.  Since the Kukkiwon won't prevent you from throwing in BJJ groundwork and Shorin Ryu kata on top of it all in your school, and as there are no annual dues, the dan fees are non-onerous, KKW/WTF stickers are a nice customer draw, and KKW certification is a nice selling point, KKW school owners have little incentive to break with the KKW.

Daniel


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Chris,
> 
> I said raise an eyebrow, not write off or consider then frauds.


 
Yes, I know. I don't think I implied otherwise. 



> I suspect that there are *far* more independents teaching Chang Hon TKD than there are teaching Kukki taekwondo. Every independent school that I have ever visited taught Chang Hon in some fashion. Browsing the web and looking at TKD school websites, you will find a lot of indie schools or smaller organizations promoting Chang Hon taekwondo, with few, if any, promoting Kukki taekwondo.


 
Well, I have seen a few doing the Palgue forms. Interestingly, though, I don't know of _any_ non KKW types who do the Taeguks. Then again, I know more than one extremely highly ranked KKW GM who gets his students certified by the KKW who do the Chang Hun tuls either in lieu of or in addition to the Taeguks. The ITF stuff is out there all over the place in one form or another.



> It is normative for non ITF schools to teach Chang Hon taekwondo. It is not the norm for non KKW schools to teach KKW TKD or for non ATA schools to teach Songahm TKD. Songahm is more problematic because the ATA can potentially sue the school owner for using Songahm forms outside of the ATA. With Kukki curriculum, it isn't problematic; simply unusual.


 
Well, I would hazard to say that in my opinion this is a conclusion drawn from experience which doesn't raise above the level of anecdotal evidence given the size of the KKW membership. YMMV, of course. The ATA is a different stiry, of course, since they've apparently gotten their forms under copyright.

I'd also say that any talk of what is "normative" for any school or system of schools outside of the KKW (or the ITF for that matter) is irrelevant since they are, by definition, not tied to any sort of norm set by a central organization. Pretty much everything is up for grabs if one is independent.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Well, I have seen a few doing the Palgue forms. Interestingly, though, I don't know of _any_ non KKW types who do the Taeguks. Then again, I know more than one extremely highly ranked KKW GM who gets his students certified by the KKW who do the Chang Hun tuls either in lieu of or in addition to the Taeguks. The ITF stuff is out there all over the place in one form or another.




Well, I would hazard to say that in my opinion this is a conclusion  drawn from experience which doesn't raise above the level of anecdotal  evidence given the size of the KKW membership.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> T
> You don't really break off from the Kukkiwon because you don't join the Kukkiwon.  You really can't break away.  You're simply certified.  Since the Kukkiwon won't prevent you from throwing in BJJ groundwork and Shorin Ryu kata on top of it all in your school, and as there are no annual dues, the dan fees are non-onerous, KKW/WTF stickers are a nice customer draw, and KKW certification is a nice selling point, KKW school owners have little incentive to break with the KKW.



I said drift away from KKW not break away.  If one is no longer seeking higher KKW rank, doesn't submit one's students for KKW certification, isn't interested in more KKW training, arguably one is drifting away.  And if those 3 conditions are true, then it's just an issue of semantics about the wording.

The real question is whether this means you still practice KKW TKD or not, especially if you have made a mental determination to use your own internal standard as the final arbiter.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I think this is just due to the relative youth of the KKW forms and also because KKW TKD has experienced less fragmentation historically. However I would not be surprised to see it happening more frequently.


Youth?  For all intents and purposes, the KKW is only about eight years younger than the ITF and both have been around for about four decades, the ITF going on five.

I thinkd that the reason that there is less fragmentation is because you really don't join the KKW.  You just certify students through them.  Nothing to break away from because there's nothing to join.  



dancingalone said:


> Last night I saw various people on Youtube performing Palgwes. They were wearing crossover uniforms, so I'm inclined to think they are independent.


I suspect that you're more likely to see Palgwes being done by independent groups.  The dobok doesn't really mean anything one way or the other.  The KKW doesn't enforce vee necks.  My master wears a crossover because it was given to him by a sales rep and he finds it comfortable.  The thing has dragons all over it.  But he's a KKW sixth dan and issues KKW certs to all students.



dancingalone said:


> I even saw someone doing Taegeuks with an Independent Taekwondo Association banner on his walls. That's John Pelligrini's group and I've heard he can get his people KKW certs but they're not required at all there.


Correct about GMP's group offering KKW certs.  http://www.dsihq.com/#the-independent-taekwondo-association-ita-4c5084  Its no different than USAT in that regard, however.  You can join USAT as a member and can probably join as a member school and through them, have access to the KKW.  But USAT doesn't issue its own seprate certs and if you are issuing school certs, there is no mechanism to prevent you.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I said drift away from KKW not break away. If one is no longer seeking higher KKW rank, doesn't submit one's students for KKW certification, isn't interested in more KKW training, arguably one is drifting away. And if those 3 conditions are true, then it's just an issue of semantics about the wording.


Yes, you did say drift, and I said break.  And yes, you are correct in what you say above.  I think that there are fewer people who drift away/break away from the KKW than from other organizations is mainly because unless you jetison the KKW specific material entirely, there really is little reason to.



dancingalone said:


> The real question is whether this means you still practice KKW TKD or not, especially if you have made a mental determination to use your own internal standard as the final arbiter.


Well, if you don't still practice it, then the eyebrow raising issue becomes a non-issue: not KKW cert because it isn't KKW material.  

My eyebrow comment was only with regards to schools that have changed nothing except the cert.

Daniel


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> But who does that?  People who leave organizations generally change their curriculum, if only for legal reasons if we're talking ATA.




A lot of instructors teach the Kukkiwon curriculum but do not give Kukkiwon certification, at least in the US. The US has so many Kukkiwon certified instructors that if every single one gave out Kukkiwon certificates to all their students, the US would be the leader in number of Kukkiwon certifications, not Korea.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Glenn, have you considered asking the KKW to change the name of the art they practice to Taesoodo? Since, obviously, what they're doing isn't so completely different from what Gen. Choi envisioned Taekwon-Do as being? You can't have your cake and eat it, too, after all.




We all would be calling it Taesoodo if General Choi hadn't forced the KTA to change the name. As for what General Choi envisioned, I don't think too many are going along with that, not even you. Are you part of NK ITF for example? Isn't that what General Choi envisioned, that the ITF be led by Mr. Chang Ung? Besides, General Choi doesn't get to decide what is or isn't Taekwondo and he never did. He gave up that right when he forced the KTA to change the name of the art from Taesoodo to Taekwondo. At that point, he lost control of his precious and gave it up to the KTA.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Youth?  For all intents and purposes, the KKW is only about eight years younger than the ITF and both have been around for about four decades, the ITF going on five.



I was talking about the forms, not the organizations.  At least in Texas, the Palgwe and Taegeuk were quite rare well into the eighties.  If you did TKD, you practiced Chang Hon forms.  As people inevitably grew and split along factional lines, you began to see the growth of smaller independent groups, all still practicing the same forms but with increasing variation as well. 

If Youtube is any indicator, the Palgwe are not immune to the same phenomenon.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I thinkd that the reason that there is less fragmentation is because you really don't join the KKW.  You just certify students through them.  Nothing to break away from because there's nothing to join.



Maybe so.  The main examples I know of people drifting away from the KKW are GM Kim Soo and Ralph's GM.  There are probably others. 


Daniel Sullivan said:


> I suspect that you're more likely to see Palgwes being done by independent groups.



Probably if we are comparing to the Taegeuk series.  Performed with medium to low stances, the Palgwe are a reasonable enough substitute for any other pattern set for indie schools.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> The dobok doesn't really mean anything one way or the other.  The KKW doesn't enforce vee necks.  My master wears a crossover because it was given to him by a sales rep and he finds it comfortable.  The thing has dragons all over it.  But he's a KKW sixth dan and issues KKW certs to all students.



Other than that ITA guy I saw on Youtube, I know of NO ONE who uses the white v-necks who is not in KKW TKD.  This may only be anecdotal evidence, but I stand by it.  The v-necks are very much a KKW trait, aside from the garish competition outfits used by sport point karate fighters.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Well, I would hazard to say that in my opinion this is a conclusion drawn from experience which doesn't raise above the level of anecdotal evidence given the size of the KKW membership. YMMV, of course.


Absolutely.  If I am off base, I would be curious to know; I have no personal attachment to my conclusion.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Other than that ITA guy I saw on Youtube, I know of NO ONE who uses the white v-necks who is not in KKW TKD. This may only be anecdotal evidence, but I stand by it. The v-necks are very much a KKW trait,


Completely.  I was just saying that a non-Vee neck is not necesarilly an indicator that they are independent, that is all.

Daniel


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Youth?  For all intents and purposes, the KKW is only about eight years younger than the ITF and both have been around for about four decades, the ITF going on five.




For all intents and purposes, the Kukkiwon really began in 1961, with the formation of the KTA. It was the KTA which set the curriculum and also started issuing dan certificates, a role inherited from the KTA at its formation. For example, the what we now call the Kukkiwon poomsae was created by a KTA committee, and the dan certifications given by the KTA were grandfathered into the Kukkiwon. Most who receive Kukkiwon dan certification have serial numbers which begin with "5" or "05", but if you had received a KTA dan, then your Kukkiwon number starts with a "1" or "01".


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Other than that ITA guy I saw on Youtube, I know of NO ONE who uses the white v-necks who is not in KKW TKD.




I believe that Hwarangdo uses v necks for at least part of their dobok. It might be colored though.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> If one is no longer seeking higher KKW rank, doesn't submit one's students for KKW certification, isn't interested in more KKW training, arguably one is drifting away.  And if those 3 conditions are true, then it's just an issue of semantics about the wording.




A lot of people out there are seeking higher Kukkiwon certification, but don't give Kukkiwon certification to their students, and aren't interested in further training. That is a huge group in the US.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> I believe that Hwarangdo uses v necks for at least part of their dobok. It might be colored though.



They use a variation of the general's uniforms also used in Kuk Sool Won.  Flashy stuff.  A v-neck shirt might be part of the outfit, I do not know.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> A lot of people out there are seeking higher Kukkiwon certification, but don't give Kukkiwon certification to their students, and aren't interested in further training. That is a huge group in the US.



I would call those people rank hypocrites if you'll excuse the pun, and they should be outed and shamed.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> They use a variation of the general's uniforms also used in Kuk Sool Won.  Flashy stuff.  A v-neck shirt might be part of the outfit, I do not know.



Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do both used to be part of the same group. Their curriculum at one point was the same.


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I would call those people rank hypocrites if you'll excuse the pun, and they should be outed and shamed.




I always believed that you should give the same certificates that you get yourself.


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## dancingalone (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do both used to be part of the same group. Their curriculum at one point was the same.



Don't tell their members that!


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> Well, I would hazard to say that in my opinion this is a conclusion drawn from experience which doesn't raise above the level of anecdotal evidence given the size of the KKW membership.


 
Of course it is, Glenn. I was drawing a comparison. I'm surprised one of your towering SAT scores didn't immediately recognize that fact.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> We all would be calling it Taesoodo if General Choi hadn't forced the KTA to change the name.


 
Well, you guys sure would.  



> As for what General Choi envisioned, I don't think too many are going along with that, not even you. Are you part of NK ITF for example? Isn't that what General Choi envisioned, that the ITF be led by Mr. Chang Ung? Besides, General Choi doesn't get to decide what is or isn't Taekwondo and he never did. He gave up that right when he forced the KTA to change the name of the art from Taesoodo to Taekwondo. At that point, he lost control of his precious and gave it up to the KTA.


 
Why be so obtuse? It's quite obvious I was refering to technical aspect of Taekwon-Do and not Gen. Choi's political manuvering? Oh, that's right, you're taking a shot at someone who's dead while ignoring the point of my post  

I just find it funny that you were suggesting that non-KKW people think about a name change after you were going on in a different thread about how we're all Taekwon-Do. Maybe you just think some of us are more equal than others :lol:

Pax,

Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2011)

Guys, you have a nice back and forth of sniping eachother over in that brief history of General Choi thread.  A number of us would appreciate it if you could confine it there.  I could care less about anybody's SAT scores.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Guys, you have a nice back and forth of sniping eachother over in that brief history of General Choi thread. A number of us would appreciate it if you could confine it there. I could care less about anybody's SAT scores.


 
Me too. That's why I was curious as to why Glenn brought up how high he scored in a test we all took in high school even though he's an adult now... But if it's important to him I figure it's important enough to bring up.

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> I just find it funny that you were suggesting that non-KKW people think about a name change after you were going on in a different thread about how we're all Taekwon-Do. Maybe you just think some of us are more equal than others :lol:




If you followed the entire discussion, then you might see the point I was making. But that's ok. By the way, are you going to tell us about your experiences as a high dan with no school and no students? There is a topic on that.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2011)

This is the TKD place? I thought it was the kindergarten. 
The sarcasm is because you are going to get a mods warning and the thread locked unless the sniping and personal remarks change into dialogue that doesn't make us ashamed of being adult martial artists and instructors to boot. Just a pre mods warning.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> If you followed the entire discussion, then you might see the point I was making. But that's ok. By the way, are you going to tell us about your experiences as a high dan with no school and no students? There is a topic on that.


 
I have followed the whole discussion on the subject, which is why I mentioned the KKW renaming their style Taesoodo. 

As for being a high rank with no school, no I no longer teach at my own school but I don't consider V dan a particularly high rank. Or were you just trying to belittle me again? Is that OK since you're so senior? 

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> This is the TKD place? I thought it was the kindergarten.
> The sarcasm is because you are going to get a mods warning and the thread locked unless the sniping and personal remarks change into dialogue that doesn't make us ashamed of being adult martial artists and instructors to boot. Just a pre mods warning.



Tez, Glenn has already informed us that Bob enjoys the "passion" (I believe that was the term he used) of his posts and that the Taekwon-Do section is very different since his arrival. I can only speak to the veracity of one of those claims, however.

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Guys, you have a nice back and forth of sniping eachother over in that brief history of General Choi thread.  A number of us would appreciate it if you could confine it there.  I could care less about anybody's SAT scores.



I don't take it seriously, and I don't think you should either. If anything, it gives great insight on how it must have been for the pioneers dealing with General Choi. Think about it.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 3, 2011)

:lol:

Pax brother,

Chris


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## puunui (Feb 3, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> :lol: Pax brother, Chris




No problem kid.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't take it seriously, and I don't think you should either. If anything, it gives great insight on how it must have been for the pioneers dealing with General Choi. Think about it.


 


chrispillertkd said:


> Tez, Glenn has already informed us that Bob enjoys the "passion" (I believe that was the term he used) of his posts and that the Taekwon-Do section is very different since his arrival. I can only speak to the veracity of one of those claims, however.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Given that a mod warning was issued last night on the Brief history of Gen Choi thread regarding the two of you sniping at eachother, you would do well not to blow off Irene's comment. 

Yes, Glenn's passion for taekwondo is certainly without question, as is your own in my opinion. And I do feel that Glenn's presence is a positive for the TKD section, as I feel about your presence.

The back and forth between the two of you, however, is just immature, bordering on middle school, behavior, behavior that neither of you exhibit in your responses to others. You would both do well to dial it back. Or if its a personal thing, as it appears to be, take it to PM and snipe away. 

Daniel


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 4, 2011)

I wasn't blowing Tez off. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> I wasn't blowing Tez off.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


That was addressed to both of you.  Phrased more accurately then, I would take her comment seriously.  The continued back and forth between the two of you makes you both look juvenile.

Daniel.


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## puunui (Feb 4, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The continued back and forth between the two of you makes you both look juvenile.Daniel.




There was no continued back and forth from me.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> I always believed that you should give the same certificates that you get yourself.


Amen to that!  

Daniel


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 5, 2011)

I would have to admit that at this point I'd be quite upset if I couldn't get a KKW certification. There are a number of reasons for this that I won't bore you with.


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## terryl965 (Feb 5, 2011)

You know I have ask this question to about thirty other instructors and they have all agreed that there KKW certification means alot to them and they would feel naked without it. I guess it does have alot of sentiment value to alot of folks and that is a great thing for the KKW.


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## miguksaram (Feb 7, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you?  Come on... be honest.



Why bother with any certification.  If we were to say that getting a KKW cert was no big deal why deal with any cert, even from your own instructor?  If your instructor never gave you a certification would your world implode? 

Like anything else in this life something is only as valuable as the value we place in it.  "One man's trash is another man's treasure."   Sound familiar?  I guess I am tired of this particular question because it honestly has no real answer and we can circulate the bickering over it forever.

Will I live in the martial arts without a KKW certifications?  Yes.  Will it effect me? As long as I am part of the KKW TKD, yes.  It is a personal choice and value which I place on that particular piece of paper.  If I peddle KKW TKD and I am not certified to do so, then personally I feel that I am not in the right.  If you as a KKW TKD person don't feel a need for the KKW cert, that is your choice.  Will I feel you are in the wrong for teaching KKW TKD without the proper certification?  Yes.  Doesn't mean I don't like you, just my person view point based on my concept of right and wrong.


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## Gorilla (Feb 7, 2011)

My kids have benefited from their Kukkiwon Certification.  It has given the instant credibility when they have had to change schools.  They have gotten raised Eye Brows at first because of their age but their skill has always given them credibility!  It was asked by their Shotokan Instructor.  His first question was are they WTF and are they Kukkiwon Certified.  It even carried weight in another Martial Art.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 7, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Why bother with any certification.  If we were to say that getting a KKW cert was no big deal why deal with any cert, even from your own instructor?  If your instructor never gave you a certification would your world implode?
> 
> Like anything else in this life something is only as valuable as the value we place in it.  "One man's trash is another man's treasure."   Sound familiar?  I guess I am tired of this particular question because it honestly has no real answer and we can circulate the bickering over it forever.
> 
> Will I live in the martial arts without a KKW certifications?  Yes.  Will it effect me? As long as I am part of the KKW TKD, yes.  It is a personal choice and value which I place on that particular piece of paper.  If I peddle KKW TKD and I am not certified to do so, then personally I feel that I am not in the right.  If you as a KKW TKD person don't feel a need for the KKW cert, that is your choice.  Will I feel you are in the wrong for teaching KKW TKD without the proper certification?  Yes.  Doesn't mean I don't like you, just my person view point based on my concept of right and wrong.


Exactly right. I would have a problem with a school/instructor telling their students or potential clientel that they teach KKW tkd if they were not accredited through the KKW. Its no different to someone calling themself a builder without their builders registration, its false advertising and misleading. If you dont claim to be teaching KKW stuff and are quite open about this with your students then I see no reason to have a KKW cert. When our school gets aked by a new student or parent what our affiliations are we tell them in no uncertain terms that we are an independent organisation. When I joked with my original instructor that my daughter would one day go to the olympics for tkd he did not hesitate to tell me that if she showed enough promise to one day be a good competition sparrer that it would best suit me to move her to one of the kukki clubs in my area, where she could get the accreditation and coaching she would require to do that. I respected him for being open and honest about that and not leading me on to believe she could achieve that through our club.


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> If you dont claim to be teaching KKW stuff and are quite open about this with your students then I see no reason to have a KKW cert.




What do you think about the idea that you give the same certification that you received, that your grandmaster was given Kukkiwon certification, so that is what he should be issuing to his own students.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> What do you think about the idea that you give the same certification that you received, that your grandmaster was given Kukkiwon certification, so that is what he should be issuing to his own students.


It probably depends on what percentage of the time he has spent doing the art he was originally accredited in. I mean technically in my case my GM is a black belt in tkd and hapkido, he incorporates a lot of hapkido techs into his curriculum but does not give out rank in hapkido. My old karate instructor had a black belt in 2 forms of karate but did not give out certification in the original form of karate he did, but only in the second one he studied. I suppose you also have to take into account if the curriculum they are teaching has moved or changed from what they originally gained rank in. For instance, bob jones gives rank in zendokai, but does not give rank in his original art (goju karate), he now gives rank in "zendokai karate" and does not claim to teach, or give certification in "goju karate". Similar to what our GM has done, once upon a time he taught kukki tkd but has since moved away from that style of tkd so giving me a kukki cert would not really be relevent because he no longer teaches kukki. I suppose it would be like a plumber who changes trades and becimes an electrician, if he takes on an apprentice at this point should he give them a plumbers ticket as well because that was the original trade he did. Its hard with tkd, because so many different form of the art all fall under the banner of "taekwondo", whereas karate has kyokushin, shotokan, goju, isshin ryu etc.  Thats just my take on the subject anyway.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 8, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> It probably depends on what percentage of the time he has spent doing the art he was originally accredited in. I mean technically in my case my GM is a black belt in tkd and hapkido, he incorporates a lot of hapkido techs into his curriculum but does not give out rank in hapkido.


A lot of taekwondo instructors incorporate some hapkido into their taekwondo classes, but that does not make what they do a hapkido class. Having taken an HKD infused Taekwondo class and having studied hapkido, it is very different to study the art than it is to learn techniques culled from it and applied to a different art. That taekwondo class gave me a very solid base when I began hapkido, but it was not hapkido. Any more than a TKD class with some BJJ mixed in is BJJ.



ralphmcpherson said:


> My old karate instructor had a black belt in 2 forms of karate but did not give out certification in the original form of karate he did, but only in the second one he studied. I suppose you also have to take into account if the curriculum they are teaching has moved or changed from what they originally gained rank in. For instance, bob jones gives rank in zendokai, but does not give rank in his original art (goju karate), he now gives rank in "zendokai karate" and does not claim to teach, or give certification in "goju karate".


But that was still a certification that he received. He held grades in two zendokai and in goju, teaches zendokai and gives rank in zendokai, presumably through the same zendokai organization that he received his rank from.



ralphmcpherson said:


> Similar to what our GM has done, once upon a time he taught kukki tkd but has since moved away from that style of tkd so giving me a kukki cert would not really be relevent because he no longer teaches kukki.


I know that Glenn and yourself have been discussing this on more than one thread, but from what I have seen, your GM isn't 'not' teaching Kukki taekwondo. He's using an older set of Kukki forms and is still teaching techniques that are found in the Kukki textbook. The fact that he doesn't have WTF sparring doesn't make him 'not Kukki' either; it simply means that he is teaching Kukki taekwondo as he was taught (forms and techniques) and is focusing on the application of those techniques under a modified set of sparring rules.

Glenn's point is that your GM received a Kukki cert for learning the taekwondo that he is teaching to his students and should be furnishing them with the same certification.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I suppose it would be like a plumber who changes trades and becimes an electrician, if he takes on an apprentice at this point should he give them a plumbers ticket as well because that was the original trade he did.


More like a plumber who has been working on commercial buildings and then goes to work in residential. Same certifications, same trade, different locale. Your GM didn't stop teaching taekwondo and then start teaching hapkido. He's teaching taekwondo using an older set of Kukkiwon forms and a modified set of sparring rules.



ralphmcpherson said:


> Its hard with tkd, because so many different form of the art all fall under the banner of "taekwondo", whereas karate has kyokushin, shotokan, goju, isshin ryu etc. Thats just my take on the subject anyway.


Essentially, with taekwondo you have Kukki taekwondo, Chang Hon taekwondo, Songahm taekwondo, Jhoon Rhee taekwondo, and Ho Am taekwondo. Most independents are teaching some form of either Chang Hon or Kukki taekwondo. There are actually far fewer taekwondo styles than there are Karate styles, and they are much more similar to eachother than some karate ryus are to other karate ryus, not to mention all of the styles that are not karate but are commonly called or known as karate (including taekwondo). It is actually easier to keep track of taekwondo than it is karate.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Feb 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> What do you think about the idea that you give the same certification that you received, that your grandmaster was given Kukkiwon certification, so that is what he should be issuing to his own students.


If you are teaching what was taught to you then you should be certifying in same organization that you were certified under.  I have two private students that I teach a mixture of arts with.  However their base is Shorei-ryu.  Because of that I made sure they joined the American Karate Association and I certify their rank with that organization, because that is the organization that Sensei Sharkey certified me under for my Shorei-ryu ranking.  I have another student at my school that started in TKD but joined our school.  His mother asked me to work with him privately on his TKD since he invested about a year of his time into it and they don't want that to go to waste.  So I have been working with him and when the time comes to get him certified in KKW TKD, I will certify him through KKW.  Again,  that is just my personal standard that I believe in.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 8, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> A lot of taekwondo instructors incorporate some hapkido into their taekwondo classes, but that does not make what they do a hapkido class. Having taken an HKD infused Taekwondo class and having studied hapkido, it is very different to study the art than it is to learn techniques culled from it and applied to a different art. That taekwondo class gave me a very solid base when I began hapkido, but it was not hapkido. Any more than a TKD class with some BJJ mixed in is BJJ.
> 
> 
> But that was still a certification that he received. He held grades in two zendokai and in goju, teaches zendokai and gives rank in zendokai, presumably through the same zendokai organization that he received his rank from.
> ...


So by your definition, how much would have to be altered from what is now KKW tkd before you would not give out that cert? From training with kukki guys I would say that what we do is about 30-40% kukki based, so do you believe a student who is taught less than half the kukki stuff should have a kukki cert? I listed the differences between our club and kukki earlier in this thread and even puuini said that by definition what we are doing is karate, and not tkd (which I dont necessarilly agree with), but the differences went way beyond how we spar. So do you belive we should have a kukki cert hanging on our wall? I appreciate where you are coming from, but I still maintain that I would be way out of my depth in a kukki school and thus feel that me having a certificate saying I was a kukki black belt would be bordering on fraudulent. Also as Ive said earlier, our GM is more than happy to get us a kukki cert if we want one, so he does offer the same cert that he got many years ago, its not like he refuses to give out the same cert he received.


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## puunui (Feb 8, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I still maintain that I would be way out of my depth in a kukki school and thus feel that me having a certificate saying I was a kukki black belt would be bordering on fraudulent.




Everyone feels out of sorts whenever they go to a different school. There is always an adjustment. Personally, I think you are overexaggerating the differences based on what, your 1st Dan level of experience? I think you have much more in common with Kukki Taekwondo than you have differences, even if you don't. But again, really it is all academic. If you want to see yourself and your school as something that is separate and apart from Kukki Taekwondo, then go for it. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me how you see yourself, even if I do think that your view of yourself is erroneous. You practice the Kukkiwon poomsae. You spar using modified WTF Rules. Your instructor is Kukkiwon certified. What more do you want -- to look like the competitors at the Olympics? I got news for you -- very few people look like them and if that were the standard, then 99% of Kukki Taekwondoin would feel they are not practicing Kukki Taekwondo.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> Everyone feels out of sorts whenever they go to a different school. There is always an adjustment. Personally, I think you are overexaggerating the differences based on what, your 1st Dan level of experience? I think you have much more in common with Kukki Taekwondo than you have differences, even if you don't. But again, really it is all academic. If you want to see yourself and your school as something that is separate and apart from Kukki Taekwondo, then go for it. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me how you see yourself, even if I do think that your view of yourself is erroneous. You practice the Kukkiwon poomsae. You spar using modified WTF Rules. Your instructor is Kukkiwon certified. What more do you want -- to look like the competitors at the Olympics? I got news for you -- very few people look like them and if that were the standard, then 99% of Kukki Taekwondoin would feel they are not practicing Kukki Taekwondo.


But hang on a minute, earlier in this thread you said, and I quote, "your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing". Now all of a sudden "we have much in common with kukki". I base most of what I am saying on the reaction from kukki students when they join our club. We would have at least 100, probably more, kukki students who have joined just since my time in the club and they all comment on how different it is, I also train with a kukki guy and what we do is different. So its not based on my "1st dan level of experience", its based on actual kukki students telling me time and time again how different it is. I dont proffess to be an expert on the art or the differences between types of tkd, but when you are repeatedly told by kukki students that what you do is different you do start to take note.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 8, 2011)

Actually my wife has been following this thread and just made an interesting suggestion. The local kukki club around here runs out of my children's primary school and she said they are currently offering "1 month free" and train tuesday and thursday (I train monday and wednesday). They are quite a large respected club in the area. She suggested that I go and do my 1 month free and find out first hand how similar or different it is. She just may have an idea and Im sure my training partner will be up for it also. I would have be honest with them and tell them I have a black belt in another 'style' of tkd as it would become obvious Im not a complete newbie. I will make some calls and go in "undercover" if I can. I will keep you posted if/when it happens, Im not real busy at work currently so I will aim to start in the next fortnight. Stay tuned.


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## puunui (Feb 8, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> "your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing".




I said that to see your reaction, how attached or committed you are to Taekwondo.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> I said that to see your reaction, how attached or committed you are to Taekwondo.


I would say Im commited and attached to what I do. I love what I do and in 5 years of training have only ever missed two classes and I love the club I train at and the people there, but I couldnt care what its called or how others view it and Im not overly interested in the whole lineage and history side of it. I wouldnt say Im completely disinterested in those things either, but first and foremost Im there to train, get fit, get flexible, improve my self defence and get out of the house and have some fun. People can call what I do karate, tkd, kung fu or half assed kukki tkd (as a poster here called it), but I really dont care, its the training I care about. In saying that though, I am currently getting a tattoo designed saying "indomitable spirit" in korean, so I do have some affiliation with the term tkd obviously.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 8, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Actually my wife has been following this thread and just made an interesting suggestion. The local kukki club around here runs out of my children's primary school and she said they are currently offering "1 month free" and train tuesday and thursday (I train monday and wednesday). They are quite a large respected club in the area. She suggested that I go and do my 1 month free and find out first hand how similar or different it is. She just may have an idea and Im sure my training partner will be up for it also. I would have be honest with them and tell them I have a black belt in another 'style' of tkd as it would become obvious Im not a complete newbie. I will make some calls and go in "undercover" if I can. I will keep you posted if/when it happens, Im not real busy at work currently so I will aim to start in the next fortnight. Stay tuned.


I just gave the school a call and explained that I am a black belt in tkd, but a different style. I told them I would like to try kukki tkd to see how I find it compared to what Ive done in the past. The instructor seemed nice and was very welcoming and is happy for me to train with the class for a month to see what I think. He gave me a brief outline of how their classes work and said Im free to start whenever I wish. If I can swing it, I will do my first free class next week.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 9, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I just gave the school a call and explained that I am a black belt in tkd, but a different style. I told them I would like to try kukki tkd to see how I find it compared to what Ive done in the past. The instructor seemed nice and was very welcoming and is happy for me to train with the class for a month to see what I think. He gave me a brief outline of how their classes work and said Im free to start whenever I wish. If I can swing it, I will do my first free class next week.


Sorry, forgot to mention, they asked what club I have trained at and when I told him he said "oh, this will be very different to what you're used to", so it looks like this could get interesting.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 9, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I just gave the school a call and explained that I am a black belt in tkd, but a different style. I told them I would like to try kukki tkd to see how I find it compared to what Ive done in the past. The instructor seemed nice and was very welcoming and is happy for me to train with the class for a month to see what I think. He gave me a brief outline of how their classes work and said Im free to start whenever I wish. If I can swing it, I will do my first free class next week.



This is a great idea, I'm looking forward to following your thoughts...


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 9, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> This is a great idea, I'm looking forward to following your thoughts...


Yeah, Im looking forward to it, they have a good reputation in my area, so the quality of instruction will be good. I'll have to find the old white belt though


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 9, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> So by your definition, how much would have to be altered from what is now KKW tkd before you would not give out that cert? From training with kukki guys I would say that what we do is about 30-40% kukki based, so do you believe a student who is taught less than half the kukki stuff should have a kukki cert?


I'm not sure where you're getting your percentage from, but unless you are doing mostly non TKD techniques, then I'd say that aside from the modified sparring rules, you're still within KKW TKD, though using an older form set.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I listed the differences between our club and kukki earlier in this thread and even puuini said that by definition what we are doing is karate, and not tkd (which I dont necessarilly agree with), but the differences went way beyond how we spar.


Is that what he said? I think that he responded with an 'if you feel that way, why don't you call it karate?' rather than 'you're essentially doing karate.' If I am mistaken, my apologies; this conversation has taken place over more than one thread, each of which tops ten pages.



ralphmcpherson said:


> So do you belive we should have a kukki cert hanging on our wall? I appreciate where you are coming from, but I still maintain that I would be way out of my depth in a kukki school and thus feel that me having a certificate saying I was a kukki black belt would be bordering on fraudulent. Also as Ive said earlier, our GM is more than happy to get us a kukki cert if we want one, so he does offer the same cert that he got many years ago, its not like he refuses to give out the same cert he received.


One of the nice things about the Kukkiwon is that it is designed to accomodate more than one type of school. Not all schools are 'olympic sport' schools. Some Kukki school owners focus on self defense more than the competition. Not all school owners want to run their school identically. Certainly, it didn't bother your GM to get a Kukki certificate. Realistically, he probably is practicing along the same lines he was back when he first received his KKW cert.; what you describe is not unfamiliar and is pretty much how quite a few of the TKD schools out my way looked in the eighties.

The main idea of the Kukkiwon is to furnish a common set of forms and techniques, most of which you likely are doing, around which a school owner can build his or her curriculum and add to it if they so choose. That is why you see Kukki schools with hapkido grafted on; the kwanjang has HKD experience and simply blends it into his curriculum.

Every school does things differently, so no matter how 'compliant' you may be or think you may be, you will probably have to get up to speed on something if you switch schools. I'm sure that Steven Lopez, were he to move to a different area and go to a Kukki/WTF school with olympic rings decorating the door would still have to get up to speed on something. The Kukkiwon curriculum isn't a straight jacket, a format, or even a comprehensive curriculum (though one could study just what is in the Kukki textbook for a lifetime). It is an area of common ground for all taekwondoin.

Certainly, you are not the school owner, so you cannot determine what kind of certificates your GM issues. But if he is higher than fourth dan KKW and is teaching taekwondo, he should at least allow his students access to KKW certification. And perhaps he does; you may have said so, so if I missed it, my apologies.

If he is offering you access to a Kukki cert, personally, I'd take him up on it. He wouldn't offer it if he felt that it had no value. Obviously, it did for him. 

Daniel

*PS:* You'll do your part to stave off planetary implosion by receiving your KKW cert as well!


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## terryl965 (Feb 9, 2011)

ralphmcpherson would you be willing to share the name of the school for us, I will be watching this thread to see your revues of this KKW school.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 9, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Actually my wife has been following this thread and just made an interesting suggestion.



Whoah!  This almost slipped past me.  Does your wife train in Taekwondo as well?  If so, that's very cool.  My wife appreciates what I do but has no interest in the art at all.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 9, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Whoah!  This almost slipped past me.  Does your wife train in Taekwondo as well?  If so, that's very cool.  My wife appreciates what I do but has no interest in the art at all.


yeah, my wife started about 18 months ago, just after I got my black belt. She is a figure skater and many of the techniques cross over, so she is a pretty good tkdist for her level. My 9 year old daughter has been training for about 3 years and my 6 year old son stands down the back of the room and just follows what the rest of the class does, so tkd is a real family affair in my household.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 9, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> ralphmcpherson would you be willing to share the name of the school for us, I will be watching this thread to see your revues of this KKW school.


I would be happy to PM you the name of the kukki school if you wish. Im reluctant to just blurt their name out on a public forum because if I do end up having any negative things to say about them it is probably not fair to them as its only my opinion and I dont want to be seen as slandering their organisation on a public website.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 10, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> yeah, my wife started about 18 months ago, just after I got my black belt. She is a figure skater and many of the techniques cross over, so she is a pretty good tkdist for her level. My 9 year old daughter has been training for about 3 years and my 6 year old son stands down the back of the room and just follows what the rest of the class does, so tkd is a real family affair in my household.



Very cool!  My 8 year old son has been training for about 2 years and my 5.5 year old daughter is ITCHING to start training (our class only accepts them at 6 - and to be honest, she may be wanting to do it, but I don't think she's ready yet).

Nice to hear that your whole family does it.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 10, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Very cool!  My 8 year old son has been training for about 2 years and my 5.5 year old daughter is ITCHING to start training (our class only accepts them at 6 - and to be honest, she may be wanting to do it, but I don't think she's ready yet).
> 
> Nice to hear that your whole family does it.


I feel my son is a bit young to start even though he is six years old and Ive taught him white belt form and his kicks and punches are quite good for his age. I just feel that at that age they seem to miss some of the fundamentals, they know how to do some techs but are not yet old enough to question why they are done that way and really grasp it from the ground up. I do love spending time with him on his tkd and because its not too formal when we work together at home he can really just have some fun with it.


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## terryl965 (Feb 10, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I would be happy to PM you the name of the kukki school if you wish. Im reluctant to just blurt their name out on a public forum because if I do end up having any negative things to say about them it is probably not fair to them as its only my opinion and I dont want to be seen as slandering their organisation on a public website.


 
That would be great


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