# Thoughts on ATA TKD?



## SPX

I first got involved in martial arts as a child and it was in an ATA TKD school.  That was about 20 years ago and, at the time, I didn't even understand that there were different forms of TKD and had no knowledge even of the WTF or ITF.

I've considered getting back into TKD lately and initially thought I'd best be served by an ITF school, but sadly, there are no good ones in my area.  And I've not yet made up my mind if WTF appeals to me.

It made me wonder though about the current state of the ATA.  I've done some basic research and I understand that their reputation is not good.  But do we have any ATA instructors or students here who might want to share their thoughts on their present-day experience in the organization or how they feel it stacks up against other TKD styles?


----------



## hungryninja

Like any other organization, there are both good and bad schools in the ATA (and regardless, ATA is still thriving).  It would depend on where you are from and what you are looking for.  But I would check out the different schools in your area, especially since ATA has changed a lot from about 20 years ago.  If you indicate a general area, maybe some of us can give some more insight into the ATA schools around there.


----------



## Cyriacus

From past Research, the one thing Ill go ahead and poke the ATA for is spreading themselves a bit thin over a large number of Techniques, Rank by Rank.
This may be subjective to the Dojang but.


----------



## StudentCarl

I think the master matters much more than the organization, unless your goal is something only one of them offers, such as Olympic style sparring. In the day-to-day world, what will determine your enjoyment, progress and satisfaction is the master and the school that results from him/her.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

My opinion of the ATA is that their curriculum is certainly a serviceable curriculum and is neither superior nor inferior to Chang hon TKD (ITF) and Kukkiwon TKD (the WTF is actually the NGB of the sport of taekwondo; the style itself is Kukkiwon taekwondo).  Not crazy about the promotion structure, which seems drawn out to enhance income to the school and to the organization, but that is really separate from the quality of the curriculum.

From what I understand, ATA sparring rules are similar to WTF, and participants pad up with the same style of hogu used in WTF competition, but contact is kept light.  I also understand that their competition circuit is closed.  None of that is good or bad; simply a matter of taste and preference.  

The organization seems oriented towards offering family friendly, if somewhat pricey, places to train.  Like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it, and as has been stated by others, the instructor is really the important factor, not the style.


----------



## sfs982000

I've been studying at an ATA affiliated school now for over 3 years and it's been overall a pleasant experience for me.  I would have to piggy back on the other posts that there are some things about the organization that I don't agree with, but I overlook all that because the instructors are great and provide a great training environment for myself.


----------



## Gemini

SPX said:


> I've done some basic research and I understand that their reputation is not good.


Many have come to the same conclusion at a high level, but you could say that for almost all large organizations and there are many good ATA instructors and practitioners. I've always felt the dedication of the student plays just as big a role as the quality of instruction. I suggest taking some classes there and make up your own mind as to whether it meets your needs or not.


----------



## Cyriacus

Gemini said:


> Many have come to the same conclusion at a high level, but you could say that for almost all large organizations and there are many good ATA instructors and practitioners. I've always felt the dedication of the student plays just as big a role as the quality of instruction. I suggest taking some classes there and make up your own mind as to whether it meets your needs or not.


Yep.
Spectating some Sparring would be good as well, to see what the Dojang focuses on (I dont means kicks and punches and everything else. I mean, how attentive they are to Stances, and Hand Position [Which doesnt necessarily mean up. Just how aware of them], and other things that might lend a bit of insight into their Standards).


----------



## SPX

Thanks for the responses everyone.  I was starting to wonder if anyone was going to chime in.

First, hungryninja, to answer your question I'm in Salt Lake City, UT, USA.

I have to say that you guys are much more even-tempered about the organization than a lot of other people seem to be.  I found a few threads on Bullshido and almost everyone mercilessly attacked them.  Even on other forums there are lots of chants of "STAY AWAY FROM THE ATA!" and practitioners (often former ATA students) calling the organization--and the Songahm style of TKD--a scam or sometimes even a cult.  

I'm sure that the quality of instruction varies from school to school.  I remember that my instructors way back in the day were good at what they did and cared about providing quality instruction.  For that reason, I would not call it a McDojo.

I think my main concern is with the sparring.  I believe you have to hit, and get hit, with something other than tip-tap strikes to really be prepared for an actual confrontation.  As a Daniel Sullivan said above, the official sparring rules for the ATA are similar to the WTF, but with light contact.  I can handle that on the rare occasion of tournaments, but in the dojang I would prefer something that's a little less restrictive.  I can handle the pads, but if we're going to get all padded up, let's actually hit each other.  And face punches should be allowed.  I'm not saying it has to be full-contact, but there's nothing wrong with going home with a few bruises.  So I guess I'm wondering if there are perhaps some individual ATA schools/instructors who are a little more "hard core" and run their adult classes like they're actually teaching a martial art instead of something that's martial art-esque and is fun for the whole family.  

As an aside, I also intend to go check out a Wado-ryu school, but I know very little about the style.  I understand that this is a TKD board and everyone will be biased, but can anyone give me a general comparison of Wado and TKD?


----------



## hungryninja

If you like more contact in sparring, I would avoid an ATA school.  People wear more gear now for more safety (including face shield), but the contact (light) and sparring rules are still the same.  When I was in the ATA, our schools (southern CA) used to train differently (in terms of more contact) compared to traditional ATA schools (in fact, we were often penalized or reprimanded for what some judges thought were excessive contact in tournaments).  If you want more contact, I would check out a WTF school.  If you are venturing into other martial arts and self defense systems, I would recommend checking out a Krav Maga school (I believe there is one affiliated with Krav Maga Alliance near Salt Lake City).


----------



## SPX

hungryninja said:


> If you want more contact, I would check out a WTF school.



I've thought about this, but I want face punches.  Personally, I really like the ITF sparring format, but around here all the ITF schools are actually USTF and, at least around Utah, the USTF is quite weak.  Most of the students are children and there's very little sparring.  In fact, I attended one school for 4 months and never once was there any sparring amongst students of any rank, whether white belt or red.  Furthermore, I attended one testing with judges from all over UT and again there was no sparring at all.  Red belts got promoted without having to throw a single strike toward another person.  It was ridiculous.  

Vids like this one get me pumped up about ITF, but this kind of training/sparring/competition is just non-existent where I am:











hungryninja said:


> If you are venturing into other martial arts and self defense systems, I would recommend checking out a Krav Maga school (I believe there is one affiliated with Krav Maga Alliance near Salt Lake City).



I think Krav Maga is cool, but not something I'm particularly interested in.  It is pure self-defense and I'm more looking for something that balances SD, competition, and the philosophical values of the traditional Asian arts.  I know that's a tall order.  

Personally, if I could find a Daido Juku school in Utah then I would be all over it, but there is barely a Daido Juku presence anywhere in the US, much less Utah.


----------



## d1jinx

a bit late and probably irrelevent by now.... but,

I trained with GM Soon Ho Lee back in the mid-90's in Panama City Florida. I was very impressed. The school was very good. I learned alot from him about Taekwondo and _about the business_. The absolute definate thing about ATA was it was a business first. The ATA from what I understand started alot of the standard business practices we use today in most martial art schools. This business atmosphere tends to turn most people away and at times I see is Way too much over kill in an ATA school.

As for the actuall TKD, that was a very good school where i learned alot. I was already a black belt when i went there but was offered a 3rd dan there (as soon as I learned their Curriculum at my own pace) but never got it (too expensive!) I was a decent fighter, but seemed to dominate most ATA fighters easily. They were not very experienced with competition although they would have ATA only tournaments. Not sure how it is today, but at the time, it was more of a point sparring style then. I easily knocked their so-called "champion" on his *** 3 times in a row when he tried that point-sparring-1-legged hopping ****. I got D-Q'd for excessive contact... go figure.

There were quite a few ATA schools around and I noticed the skill level was no where near the level it was at GM Lee's school. Obviously the material being taught was standard at all schools, but i think the one who is teaching it is the difference whether it is a good school or not. regardless of which style, a good teacher can influence and motivate an individual to help them achieve thier best potential. This would be the key thing I would look for, if searching for a school. I have done KKW, ATA and ITF during my journey and a good teacher was all that mattered. not the style.

I dont know if GM Soon Ho Lee teaches anymore. He had taken over when his brother Passed away long after i left. But I will never forget those Black Belt classes he used to teach and how much I learned from him. I have alot of respect for Him and his brothers and what they have done... even if others within the ORG do not maintain the same quality of teaching.


----------



## Cyriacus

d1jinx said:


> I easily knocked their so-called "champion" on his *** 3 times in a row when he tried that point-sparring-1-legged hopping ****.


You mean that thing where someone will cock their leg up fir a Side Kick or Round Kick, then hop towards you, doing weak jabby kicks as they come in? Because if so, Im more amused by the fact He attempted it a second and third time


----------



## d1jinx

Cyriacus said:


> You mean that thing where someone will cock their leg up fir a Side Kick or Round Kick, then hop towards you, doing weak jabby kicks as they come in? Because if so, Im more amused by the fact He attempted it a second and third time




That be the one!!!:wink2:  I think i learned how to counter that as a green belt.  a nice lil spin hook kick to the head worked everytime... but granted... this was 15-16 years ago.  

yeah, it was amusing.  i still giggle when i think of it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

SPX said:


> I have to say that you guys are much more even-tempered about the organization than a lot of other people seem to be. I found a few threads on Bullshido and almost everyone mercilessly attacked them. Even on other forums there are lots of chants of "STAY AWAY FROM THE ATA!" and practitioners (often former ATA students) calling the organization--and the Songahm style of TKD--a scam or sometimes even a cult.


There really is no reason to not be even tempered; they do things the way that they do and if you like what they do and can afford the rates, then by all means, do so.  It would not be my preference, but that doesn't make it inherently bad.  What I see in the ATA is a martial arts themed family activity.  

I see articles popping up about 'Samurai Sword' workouts in health clubs.  As a kendo instructor, I suppose I could take exception to this, but why should I?  Not everyone wants to get cracked on the head with a bamboo stick; maybe they just want a good workout.  If the way of the sword can be extended to help people to improve their lives and get into better shape then I am all for it.  



SPX said:


> I'm sure that the quality of instruction varies from school to school. I remember that my instructors way back in the day were good at what they did and cared about providing quality instruction. For that reason, I would not call it a McDojo.


There are some really crappy KKW/WTF schools, and some fantastic ones, and everything in between.  The ATA has no monopoly on inconsistent instruction or on bad instruction.  Regarding McDojos, the term actually refers to the business aspect, not to the quality of instruction. 

The ATA probably is the most 'McDojo' of them all.  From what I understand,they go to great lengths to make sure that school owners are trained to run a school the ATA way and that the way schools are run and set up is fairly standardized.  I understand also that they offer a great deal of support to school owners.

Recarding the Mc thing, McDonalds is very successful because of the way that they set up their restaurants.  McDonalds are all set up so that they have certain things in common, right down to the placement of the shake machine.  The food, while not particularly good, is consistent and recognizable from place to place around the world.  People feel comfortable going in and the atmosphere is friendly.  

Really, McDonalds could be serving fine French quisine or Chinese food and the formula would work.

As DJinx said, it is a business first and that turns some people off.  The fact is that if you charge for instruction, you're running a business, regardless of your organization.  I can't really knock the ATA for being good at the business end.

The light contact, proliferation of belts, two tests (recommended and decided) for each belt, and so on are turn offs for me.  Would it keep me from training in an ATA school?  Not if I really liked the instructor.

Daniel


----------



## Cyriacus

d1jinx said:


> That be the one!!!:wink2:  I think i learned how to counter that as a green belt.  a nice lil spin hook kick to the head worked everytime... but granted... this was 15-16 years ago.
> 
> yeah, it was amusing.  i still giggle when i think of it.


Yep 

Ive only needed to deal with that approach once - My Response was to shamelessly lunge in with a Inward Crescent Kick, knowing Hed try and Side Kick Me. Then just stepped straight down after the Crescent Kick inevitably deflected the Side Kick, and did more or less what You did - Spin Hook.
Unlike Your fellow, mine didnt try it a second time, the clever bugger.


----------



## hungryninja

The sparring rules haven't changed, so it is still a point sparring style.  Most still use the front leg kicks.

I believe GM Soon Ho Lee is retired...his younger brother, In Ho Lee, is the current GM, and I believe his son runs his school.



d1jinx said:


> Not sure how it is today, but at the time, it was more of a point sparring style then. I easily knocked their so-called "champion" on his *** 3 times in a row when he tried that point-sparring-1-legged hopping ****. I got D-Q'd for excessive contact... go figure.
> 
> I dont know if GM Soon Ho Lee teaches anymore. He had taken over when his brother Passed away long after i left. But I will never forget those Black Belt classes he used to teach and how much I learned from him. I have alot of respect for Him and his brothers and what they have done... even if others within the ORG do not maintain the same quality of teaching.


----------



## d1jinx

hungryninja said:


> The sparring rules haven't changed, so it is still a point sparring style. Most still use the front leg kicks.
> 
> I believe GM Soon Ho Lee is retired...his younger brother, In Ho Lee, is the current GM, and I believe his son runs his school.



He used to have a summer picnic at the beach at one of the hotels. it was alot of fun. His wife would cook Bulgogi on the grill and everyone got to try some. I can't remember if the picnic was restricted to BB's or open to everyone, but it was fun. A business expense write-off I'm sure, but much fun none-the-less.

He was a good person from what i remember. at least to me anyway.  Funny thing was, he knew KKW tkd.  he had me do all my Poomse up to 3rd Dan.  even corrected me on 1 or 2 when i made a mistake and showed me some minor pointers to make them better.  Almost as if he still practiced them at the time.  I also heard 1 time that he and his brothers were KKW certified but do not remember what Dan, 7,8, 9 etc i was told.


----------



## SPX

d1jinx said:


> As for the actuall TKD, that was a very good school where i learned alot. I was already a black belt when i went there but was offered a 3rd dan there (as soon as I learned their Curriculum at my own pace) but never got it (too expensive!) I was a decent fighter, but seemed to dominate most ATA fighters easily. They were not very experienced with competition although they would have ATA only tournaments. Not sure how it is today, but at the time, it was more of a point sparring style then. I easily knocked their so-called "champion" on his *** 3 times in a row when he tried that point-sparring-1-legged hopping ****. I got D-Q'd for excessive contact... go figure.



I'm not sure I understand this paragraph.

It was a very good school where you learned a lot, and yet everyone sucked at actually doing TKD and you demolished them easily?


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regarding McDojos, the term actually refers to the business aspect, not to the quality of instruction.



I reckon that the term "McDojo" can be evoked for a number of reasons, but at least in my circles, it means a school that just takes your money and gives you little in return.  A TKD school that promises self-defense skills but actually gives you middling skills of any kind (much less real self-defense), promotes everyone as long as they've paid their fee, and cranks out 7 year old blackbelts is a McDojo.

If the ATA was dominating the competition circuit and producing competent fighters that frequently made successful transitions in to kickboxing or MMA then I don't think anyone would ever use the term McDojo in reference to the organization, regardless of their business practices.


----------



## d1jinx

SPX said:


> I'm not sure I understand this paragraph.
> 
> It was a very good school where you learned a lot, and yet everyone sucked at actually doing TKD and you demolished them easily?



the quality of instruction was great and there were good fighters at the school however they point sparred and had no experience at continuous full contact wtf style sparring.  It was a minimum contact, point type sparring.  That aspect had nothing to do with the quality of instruction on techniques and how classes went.  They didnt have any experience fighting because they didnt focus on it like some schools do.  The ATA fighters seemed to focus soley on scoring the first point and looked no further past that.  they were not prepaired for a counter or a hard blow.  In class, there were a few who were good, but at the tournament it was easy to clean up.  like i said, I think GM Lees school was the exception because the other schools in the area were not as good.

You have some schools who study the techniques and perfect them, while spending most of the class focusing on the "art" side.  On the other hand you have schools who soley focus on winning competitions and spend NO time perfecting the art.

As with every school, you will have a majority of the students who are "average".  no matter the quality of instruction, you will always have those that suck.   but in the end the majority wether suck or good will reflect the level of the instructor.

but i didnt say they sucked. many were good, just inexperienced at fighting.  at least fighting someone like me.


----------



## SPX

Thanks for that explanation.  

My understanding of ATA sparring has always been that it is basically the same as WTF sparring, but lighter contact.  Is WTF sparring not point-based?  Please explain the format to me if you don't mind, as I am considering looking into some WTF schools.  Also, not to open the proverbial can of worms here, but how would you say your WTF training has prepared you for a real-life self-defense situation?


----------



## hungryninja

ATA sparring rules are quite different than WTF sparring rules.  ATA sparring is one round (2 min.), light contact.  First person to reach 5 points or whoever has the higher number of points when the round is complete is the winner of the match.  The judges stop the match at each point where they believe a person has scored (so it's "stop and go").  1 point for punch or kick to the body.  2 points for kick to the head or jump kick to the body.  3 points for jump kick to the head.  http://www.ataonline.com/the_ring/rules/2011-12CompetitionRules.pdf

Depending on the type of tournament, there are multiple rounds, and scoring is continuous (not "stop and go"), full contact.  E.g. here are USA taekwondo rules:  http://assets.usoc.org/assets/docum...754/USAT_Rules_REVISE_October_24_11_FINAL.pdf

They both are similar in the aspect that no hand techniques to the head are allowed in tournament sparring.



SPX said:


> Thanks for that explanation.
> 
> My understanding of ATA sparring has always been that it is basically the same as WTF sparring, but lighter contact.  Is WTF sparring not point-based?  Please explain the format to me if you don't mind, as I am considering looking into some WTF schools.  Also, not to open the proverbial can of worms here, but how would you say your WTF training has prepared you for a real-life self-defense situation?


----------



## SPX

Thanks for that explanation.  

Now if only the WTF would allow hand techniques to the head (and actually score hand techniques to the body, which I've heard is a big problem).


----------



## msmitht

At a private school I teach 1st through 6th graders wtf tkd. They train hard and learn everything except for sparring. I do not use belts because there are no uniforms and the lack of sparring.
There is a new 2nd grade girl who brought her 2nd dan belt to wear in class. I had no idea. Without getting specific on her technical level I will say at my school she might make it as a orange belt, maybe. She says that when she is nine she gets her ATA  3rd dan.Nothing else needs to be said.


----------



## d1jinx

SPX said:


> Thanks for that explanation.
> 
> My understanding of ATA sparring has always been that it is basically the same as WTF sparring, but lighter contact. Is WTF sparring not point-based? Please explain the format to me if you don't mind, as I am considering looking into some WTF schools. Also, not to open the proverbial can of worms here, but how would you say your WTF training has prepared you for a real-life self-defense situation?



I think Hungryninja explained the differences well enough, but just to add, WTF you can kick to the head and KNock out. Not that it happens much anymore, but it is allowed (for adults, dont get me started on the BS children rules that didnt exsist a few years back. You can read all about junior safety rules at the USAT link f you want)

As for _"WTF training has prepared you for a real-life self-defense situation"_ I wouldn't say WTF had anything more or less to do with it. Its all TKD and the TKD training helped. Probably the only thing to take away from WTF style competition is you learn to expect more than 1 hit and to counter. where as point sparring, meaning first point scores, then break match, judges score point, then resume match, doesnt give a person the true experience of a fight where after the first hit, the person does not stop. Also, sparring in a WTF type match gives one the practice of kicking and hitting with full power. theres no experience like kitting with full power and hitting an elbow for the first time. eventually, like anything you will get used to it, not saying it dont hurt, but imagine if you tried to kick someone on the street full power for the first time and hit an elbow. once to dropped to the ground in shock from the pain, that person pounced ontop and continued beating the hell out of you!!!

But please understand, I am not saying WTF competition is "realistic self defense training". what I am saying is "continuous sparring" has many more advantages over a "point sparring" style when it comes to learning and developing TKD skills that can be realistically used for self defense.

hope i didnt confuse you or start a war about "how awful/great WTF is". like anything... maximize learning oppurtunities and try to adapt them to real life. there is NO training that will truly prepare you for every possible scenario in life. You must learn to adapt what you have learned to that scenario.


----------



## Cyriacus

d1jinx said:


> I think Hungryninja explained the differences well enough, but just to add, WTF you can kick to the head and KNock out. Not that it happens much anymore, but it is allowed (for adults, dont get me started on the BS children rules that didnt exsist a few years back. You can read all about junior safety rules at the USAT link f you want)
> 
> As for _"WTF training has prepared you for a real-life self-defense situation"_ I wouldn't say WTF had anything more or less to do with it. Its all TKD and the TKD training helped. Probably the only thing to take away from WTF style competition is you learn to expect more than 1 hit and to counter. where as point sparring, meaning first point scores, then break match, judges score point, then resume match, doesnt give a person the true experience of a fight where after the first hit, the person does not stop. Also, sparring in a WTF type match gives one the practice of kicking and hitting with full power. theres no experience like kitting with full power and hitting an elbow for the first time. eventually, like anything you will get used to it, not saying it dont hurt, but imagine if you tried to kick someone on the street full power for the first time and hit an elbow. once to dropped to the ground in shock from the pain, that person pounced ontop and continued beating the hell out of you!!!
> 
> But please understand, I am not saying WTF competition is "realistic self defense training". what I am saying is "continuous sparring" has many more advantages over a "point sparring" style when it comes to learning and developing TKD skills that can be realistically used for self defense.
> 
> hope i didnt confuse you or start a war about "how awful/great WTF is". like anything... maximize learning oppurtunities and try to adapt them to real life. there is NO training that will truly prepare you for every possible scenario in life. You must learn to adapt what you have learned to that scenario.



Both Point and Continuous Point Sparring have their place. Albeit, if I had to pick one only, itd be... Neither.  
But picking from them, id take Continuous Point any day.
Point Stop Sparring has the benefit of teaching You to hit first.
Continuous Point Sparring has the benefit of teaching You to hit, get hit, and keep going on from both.
Again, Id prefer other Sparring Methodologies. But that doesnt mean theres anything wrong with others. Now, what does get ridiculous, is when someone barely taps someone with their toes or somesuch, and get a Point Stop.


----------



## SPX

In the interest of trivia, there are two ATA guys that I know of who have gone on to have some degree of wider success beyond the organization.


1.  Jody Horn

He listed as a "Colorado State Olympic Champion" (not sure exactly what that means to be honest) and apparently was also invited to train at the Olympic Training Center.  I also READ that he was selected as an Olympic alternate, though it was just a user on a forum who mentioned it, so I'm not sure how true that is.


Here's a vid of him sparring. . .  His moves sure look pretty, even though the "sparring" here is kind of a joke:











2.  Chris Martin

He's like a bajillion time ATA champion in various categories.  Here are some vids I found:  an ATA sparring match at a comp, his muay Thai debut, his second muay Thai fight, and a commercial he was in.


----------



## hungryninja

Both Jody Horn and Chris Martin are still heavily involved in ATA (school owners).  I think that clip of Jody Horn is what ATA calls "testing sparring"...it's another category of sparring where the whole purpose is to "showcase" your techniques in controlled non-contact sparring.  

Some other notable current and/or former ATA members who have transitioned into other areas...Brian Davidson (MMA), Anthony "Showtime" Pettis (MMA), Taren Ogata (USAT).


----------



## d1jinx

Video # 2 is a joke.  He was barely hit, yet goes to the floor and lays there like a child.  This is a result of being a Black belt who has never been hit.  so what happens in a real situation, when you are hit?  you drop to the ground and cry for mercy....  kind of goes back to my comment about hitting an elbow full power for the first time.  I guarantee it was more of a shock factor than actual pain.


----------



## d1jinx

hungryninja said:


> I think that clip of Jody Horn is what ATA calls "testing sparring"...it's another category of sparring where the whole purpose is to "showcase" your techniques in controlled non-contact sparring.



not just the ATA, or taekwondo.  i think many styles have this and do it pretty frequently.  Its serves it purpose too.  its called "control".  just as you need to learn to hit hard, you need to learn to control the technique.

I see nothing wrong with this.  especially when 2 students are known to be good at sparring, you want to observe their ability to control techniques.  I have seen people who were 1 speeded fighters.  meaning they could go all out, yet you couldnt put them with a lower rank or have them instruct while sparring cause they couldn't control themselves.  they would either destroy the person or start that slow motion, lazy sparring that does nothing for the student trying to learn.  they need to learn to mirror the students ability and that was something they could not do because they had no control.


----------



## Cyriacus

d1jinx said:


> not just the ATA, or taekwondo.  i think many styles have this and do it pretty frequently.  Its serves it purpose too.  its called "control".  just as you need to learn to hit hard, you need to learn to control the technique.
> 
> I see nothing wrong with this.  especially when 2 students are known to be good at sparring, you want to observe their ability to control techniques.  I have seen people who were 1 speeded fighters.  meaning they could go all out, yet you couldnt put them with a lower rank or have them instruct while sparring cause they couldn't control themselves.  they would either destroy the person or start that slow motion, lazy sparring that does nothing for the student trying to learn.  they need to learn to mirror the students ability and that was something they could not do because they had no control.


Yep.
And to this day, I dont see whats so hard about it. Because You dont even have to take the Power or Speed out, really. Just the Continuity and Complexity needs to be sledgehammered. It really isnt hard.
That way, both Parties still benefit.


----------



## SPX

d1jinx said:


> Video # 2 is a joke.  He was barely hit, yet goes to the floor and lays there like a child.  This is a result of being a Black belt who has never been hit.  so what happens in a real situation, when you are hit?  you drop to the ground and cry for mercy....  kind of goes back to my comment about hitting an elbow full power for the first time.  I guarantee it was more of a shock factor than actual pain.



I agree.  It's a problem that I just can't understand why more TMA schools aren't aware of.  It's not like you can't find ways to fix that . . . even ways, in my opinion, that don't involve full contact to an unprotected face.


----------



## ETinCYQX

It depends on what you want, really. I'd actually probably be happy training with an ATA school at this point in my life because what I want is a large network of schools, a good competition structure and a friendly environment with hard sport-leaning training. My belt doesn't bother me aside from who I'm allowed to fight in a tournament and I don't care how old the black belts are, it's not my problem.


----------



## d1jinx

SPX said:


> I agree. It's a problem that I just can't understand why more TMA schools aren't aware of. It's not like you can't find ways to fix that . . . even ways, in my opinion, that don't involve full contact to an unprotected face.




I think most use the "insurance liability" card. I mean, without starting a whole other argument or discusion, I think anyone who signs up for TKD should be aware that it is a "contact sport". You dont sign your kid up for football and sue cause he got tackled. You dont sue when your kid gets hit with a baseball. so how come everyone thinks its ok to sue cause you got kicked? Just saying. A whole nother thread discusion i guess. its a kindler, gentler tkd today...


----------



## Kinghercules

*ATA is some shhhhht!!!* LOL!!
Seriously. They are the worst practioners of TKD that Ive eva seen!

How the hell you gonna be fully suited up in sparrin gear but yet still cant make contact?!  Are you fruckin kiddin me!!!!!


----------



## Cyriacus

Kinghercules said:


> *ATA is some shhhhht!!!* LOL!!
> Seriously. They are the worst practioners of TKD that Ive eva seen!
> 
> How the hell you gonna be fully suited up in sparrin gear but yet still cant make contact?!  Are you fruckin kiddin me!!!!!


If im not mistaken, they dont exactly encourage Aggressive Contact.
I may be mistaken.


----------



## Kinghercules

Cyriacus said:


> If im not mistaken, they dont exactly encourage Aggressive Contact.
> I may be mistaken.



IDK what they encourage but its a joke.
I would be embarrassed to tell anyone that I trained at an ATA school.  :lol:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> *ATA is some shhhhht!!!* LOL!!
> Seriously. They are the worst practioners of TKD that Ive eva seen!


Worst in what way?  Forms?  Sparring?  Breaking?  Attitude?



Kinghercules said:


> How the hell you gonna be fully suited up in sparrin gear but yet still cant make contact?!


This is essentially semi-contact sparring with protective gear in place to prevent injury in the event of accidental contact to a non-target area or accidental full contact to a legal target area.  In other words, it keeps soccor moms happy and prevents lawsuits.

I think that you need to understand that the ATA promotes a martial arts themed family activity rather than fight sport.  In essence, they are 'fencing.'



Kinghercules said:


> Are you fruckin kiddin me!!!!!



Please refrain from trying to work in the profanity.  I'm pretty sure that it violates the terms of service. I'm not personally offended, but I thought I'd give you a heads up. 

People display far stronger reactions to this than is necessary.  Either you like what they do or you don't.  WTF is full contact, yet people gripe about that too.  MMA is full contact with minimal gear and people still gripe about that.  Regardless of the rule set, someone is going to be sour about it.  The ATA has picked out its market and caters to them.  You (and likely the majority of MT membership) are clearly not the customer that they are targeting.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> IDK what they encourage but its a joke.
> I would be embarrassed to tell anyone that I trained at an ATA school. :lol:


I wouldn't be embarrassed to tell anyone that I trained at an ATA school, though from what I understand about their pricing, I would be embarrassed to tell anyone what it costs for the privilege of doing so.


----------



## StudentCarl

Kinghercules said:


> IDK what they encourage but its a joke.
> I would be embarrassed to tell anyone that I trained at an ATA school.  :lol:



What's your first-hand experience with ATA? You make some pretty harsh comments for saying you don't know what they encourage. You come across like you're trying to impress kids with your profanity, but the crowd here is older and looks for explanation and not bluster. Please explain.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Kinghercules said:


> *ATA is some shhhhht!!!* LOL!!
> Seriously. They are the worst practioners of TKD that Ive eva seen!
> 
> How the hell you gonna be fully suited up in sparrin gear but yet still cant make contact?!  Are you fruckin kiddin me!!!!!





Daniel Sullivan said:


> ...
> Please refrain from trying to work in the profanity.  I'm pretty sure that it violates the terms of service. I'm not personally offended, but I thought I'd give you a heads up. ...





StudentCarl said:


> ...You come across like you're trying to impress kids with your profanity, but the crowd here is older and looks for explanation and not bluster. Please explain.



PottyMouth. The language of the preteen.

Oh yeah, rules.  Says "No Profanity" in there a few times. Also says "don't try and hide it, mask it, circumvent it, etc it"

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...um-Rules-and-Procedures-Revised-March-29-2011

So either he doesn't like following the rules or he's someone who said he read them when he didn't, ie a liar.
Either way, zero credibility at this point.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Cyriacus said:


> If im not mistaken, they dont exactly encourage Aggressive Contact.
> I may be mistaken.


From what ATA practitioners have said (I have no first hand experience), they do not encourage hard contact.  From what I can tell, it is like fencing; they call a strike in fencing a 'touch,' as in 'touche!'

Participants are engaging in a physical activity, not fighting with each other.  Some people just aren't into getting banged around but they like martial arts.  There is no sparring whatsoever in iaido, but nobody trashes it for that; people who want sparring in swordwork simply train in kendo instead and everybody is happy.

Personally, I feel that if you are going to pad up, a higher level of contact is warrented.  More like kendo; we put on bogu and strike solidly.  We aren't trying to kill each other or get a KO, but it is hard contact.

Frankly, the sparring rules in the ATA don't put me off; it is what it is.  The grading system is what would keep me away.


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what ATA practitioners have said (I have no first hand experience), they do not encourage hard contact.  From what I can tell, it is like fencing; they call a strike in fencing a 'touch,' as in 'touche!'
> 
> Participants are engaging in a physical activity, not fighting with each other.  Some people just aren't into getting banged around but they like martial arts.  There is no sparring whatsoever in iaido, but nobody trashes it for that; people who want sparring in swordwork simply train in kendo instead and everybody is happy.
> 
> Personally, I feel that if you are going to pad up, a higher level of contact is warrented.  More like kendo; we put on bogu and strike solidly.  We aren't trying to kill each other or get a KO, but it is hard contact.
> 
> Frankly, the sparring rules in the ATA don't put me off; it is what it is.  The grading system is what would keep me away.



Iaido is not the same as Kendo or Iaijutsu even though it comes from there.  Iaido is about the philosophy and esthetics (if Im correct).  Iaijutsu is more of the art of sword fighting......right?

Now American Taekwondo Association (ATA) embodies TKD.  When you read it you think about TKD. And what is TKD? Its the arts of the hand & foot.  It is a self defense art or an _offense art_.   If they changed the philosophy then they should change the name just like "Iaido".


----------



## Kinghercules

Ok my thoughts.  From my above post you all know that I have no respect for the ATA and those that train in it and since the administrator has emailed me about negative speakin or bashin other arts....I will have to leave it at that.

Why I dont like the ATA?  

Ok besides the fact that its founder is a 123 instant BB...its just full of dirt.  Its an association givin false hope to ppl.  So what if its gear to soccer moms and kids that would never get into a fight at school.  How you know they will never get into fights?  I grew up in the hood and all my fights have not been around my way or at school.  Sometimes they happened when I was at a bar or at the mall mindin my business or when someone cuts you off and you make the gustier "WTH are you doin" and they wanna block you in and hop out the car and step to you. Fights just come.  They're not some thing that we or I go lookin for.  And I dont know where yall live at but I live in America and in this country women get raped every day somewhere.  If you have trained in ATA and you couldnt defend yourself when some guy forces his self on you, how would you feel about your trainin?  And dont try to say thats not goin to happen because you dont know if and when it will happen and the majority of women that are raped were raped by someone that they know.  _*If you are not learning how to defend yourself properly then what is the reason for gettin a black belt?*_


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Kinghercules said:


> _*If you are not learning how to defend yourself properly then what is the reason for gettin a black belt?*_



It could be fitness or fun, just like any other sport. A counter retort would be "if you want to defend yourself, why are you learning TKD and not firearms with a permit to carry a concealed weapon?".  I don't agree with people saying martial arts must be about self defence - let each person decide for himself (herself) why they pursue it.


----------



## The Last Legionary

> and they wanna block you in and hop out the car and step to you.


Can someone translate this into English? Google looked at it and sent a 404 back.

As to this bit


> Fights just come. They're not some thing that we or I go lookin for. And I dont know where yall live at but I live in America and in this country women get raped every day somewhere.


He's right. Everyday in America women are raped, somewhere. They are killed until dead too, somewhere. Little kids are kidnapped, somewhere. So learn to fight because mad mothers be illing and fronting and steppin and jammin and jimmyin and jackin n stuff, for shizzle, home doggers.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Kinghercules said:


> Iaido is not the same as Kendo or Iaijutsu even though it comes from there.  Iaido is about the philosophy and esthetics (if Im correct).  Iaijutsu is more of the art of sword fighting......right?
> 
> Now American Taekwondo Association (ATA) embodies TKD.  When you read it you think about TKD. And what is TKD? Its the arts of the hand & foot.  It is a self defense art or an _offense art_.   If they changed the philosophy then they should change the name just like "Iaido".



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaijutsu

Iaijutsu >> Iaido >> Kendo.


----------



## Cyriacus

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> It could be fitness or fun, just like any other sport. A counter retort would be "if you want to defend yourself, why are you learning TKD and not firearms with a permit to carry a concealed weapon?".  I don't agree with people saying martial arts must be about self defence - let each person decide for himself (herself) why they pursue it.


Im inclined to agree.

That said, I did do Firearms for a long while. Ive found Martial Arts to be more reliable; Albeit that may just be personal opinion


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> Ok my thoughts.  From my above post you all know that I have no respect for the ATA and those that train in it and since the administrator has emailed me about negative speakin or bashin other arts....I will have to leave it at that.


Yes, but you didn't leave it at that, as evinced by the following:



Kinghercules said:


> Why I dont like the ATA?
> 
> Ok besides the fact that *its founder is a 123 instant BB*...its just full of dirt.


Please support this statement.  I have heard many criticisms of the ATA, but accusations of the founder being an instant BB are not among them.



Kinghercules said:


> Its an association givin false hope to ppl.  So what if its gear to soccer moms *and kids that would never get into a fight at school.*  How you know they will never get into fights?


Where is this coming from?  Nobody has said anything to the effect that kids will never get into fights in school, so why are you going there?



Kinghercules said:


> I grew up in the hood and all my fights have not been around my way or at school.  Sometimes they happened when I was at a bar or at the mall mindin my business or when someone cuts you off and you make the gustier "WTH are you doin" and they wanna block you in and hop out the car and step to you. Fights just come.  They're not some thing that we or I go lookin for.  And I dont know where yall live at but I live in America and in this country women get raped every day somewhere.  If you have trained in ATA and you couldnt defend yourself when some guy forces his self on you, how would you feel about your trainin?  And dont try to say thats not goin to happen because you dont know if and when it will happen and the majority of women that are raped were raped by someone that they know.


Kickboxing, regardless of the style or contact level, does not equate to self defense and certainly does not equate to rape prevention.

99 percent of self defense is not about the physical.  Everything from where you choose to go (bars are generally a bad choice) to your cell phone habits affect your ability to defend yourself.  How you carry yourself and how you interract with others play a huge part in whether or not fights 'just come at you.'  

I have no comment on how the ATA addresses the non physical portion of SD because I have never trained at an ATA school.  



Kinghercules said:


> _*If you are not learning how to defend yourself properly then what is the reason for gettin a black belt?*_


For competition bracketing.  That is what belts are for, and they have no correlation to self defense.  Remember, taekwondo is the national sport of Korea and an olympic sport.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your experience with the ATA that has prompted you to make such strong statements about the organization?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> Iaido is not the same as Kendo or Iaijutsu even though it comes from there.  Iaido is about the philosophy and esthetics (if Im correct).  Iaijutsu is more of the art of sword fighting......right?


Iaido and iaijutsu are essentially the same thing: the art of drawing the sword and cutting in a single motion.  Iaido and iaijutsu utilize kata as the primary mechanism of training.  There is no sparring.  There is a deep philosophical element to ZNKR iaido, with the object of improving the practitioner as a person.  Having said that, a skilled iaido practitioner with a shinken could easily kill someone with the skills they have learned.

Kendo is fencing, and looks more like sword fighting than iaido.  Kendo has a kata element (paired kata) where bokuto or actual (though un-edged) swords are utilized.  One could certainly, with a shinken, kill a person with the skill that they have learned in kendo.

Kendo revolves around shiai; the match or bout.  Bouts in kendo are full contact.  Iaido revolves around kata practiced individually; I believe that there are thirteen ZNKR iaido kata.  There is no sparring in ZNKR iaido.  Nobody cares.  They don't practice iaido for the purpose of winning matches.



Kinghercules said:


> Now American Taekwondo Association (ATA) embodies TKD.  When you read it you think about TKD. And what is TKD? Its the arts of the hand & foot.  It is a self defense art or an _offense art_.   If they changed the philosophy then they should change the name just like "Iaido".


Actually, taekwondo is more like kendo.  It is a modern unarmed art that is trained through kata (pumse/tul/hyeong/whatever Korean term is used) and shihap (sparring contests).  The purpose of the sparring is to score points, be it in continuous play or in point/stop sparring.  Belts, gender, and age are used for competition bracketing.  

The sparring in taekwondo does not resemble any real fight that you will see, regardless of which federation you are dealing with and regardless of the contact level or amount of protective gear worn.  

The purpose of taekwondo is similar to the purpose of kendo: to improve the practitioner as a person and member of collective humanity through the practice of taekwondo.  Yes, you can defend yourself with taekwondo.  But it is not the primary purpose of the art, and not everyone takes it specifically for self defense.


----------



## SPX

Wow.  There's been so activity in this thread in the past couple of days.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is essentially semi-contact sparring with protective gear in place to prevent injury in the event of accidental contact to a non-target area or accidental full contact to a legal target area.  In other words, it keeps soccor moms happy and prevents lawsuits.



I know that this is the explanation, but don't WTF schools accomplish the same thing?

So it's not like mothers won't send their kids to a harder hitting school or that it's necessary to have BOTH full padding AND light contact to stay insured.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that you need to understand that the ATA promotes a martial arts themed family activity rather than fight sport.



That's an interesting description.  I like it.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> WTF is full contact, yet people gripe about that too.  MMA is full contact with minimal gear and people still gripe about that.



I think most people don't like that in the WTF ruleset boxing skills are pretty much useless.  But lately I've come to appreciate different rulesets more.  I think I would have a problem if that was the ONLY ruleset that I could compete under, but I no longer have a problem with it and have come to appreciate it for what it is.


----------



## SPX

The Last Legionary said:


> Can someone translate this into English? Google looked at it and sent a 404 back.
> 
> As to this bit
> 
> He's right. Everyday in America women are raped, somewhere. They are killed until dead too, somewhere. Little kids are kidnapped, somewhere. So learn to fight because mad mothers be illing and fronting and steppin and jammin and jimmyin and jackin n stuff, for shizzle, home doggers.



Many lulz were had.  Thank you, sir.


----------



## SPX

The Last Legionary said:


> PottyMouth. The language of the preteen.
> 
> Oh yeah, rules.  Says "No Profanity" in there a few times. Also says "don't try and hide it, mask it, circumvent it, etc it"
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...um-Rules-and-Procedures-Revised-March-29-2011
> 
> So either he doesn't like following the rules or he's someone who said he read them when he didn't, ie a liar.
> Either way, zero credibility at this point.




Or he's just a troll.  

With that said, I cuss like a sailor and I'm a grown man, so. . .


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what ATA practitioners have said (I have no first hand experience)



For some reason I thought you were an ATA instructor. . .



Daniel Sullivan said:


> There is no sparring whatsoever in iaido, but nobody trashes it for that; people who want sparring in swordwork simply train in kendo instead and everybody is happy.



I think a big difference is that iaido doesn't pretend to be something it's not.  ATA TKD calls itself just that, TKD, and if you're going to identify yourself with that martial art then people are going to expect certain things.  If they didn't call what they do TKD then they could avoid being held to the standards of such.

Also, isn't iaido the art of drawing the sword?  It would be difficult to fashion that into a competitive activity with sparring involved, I'd think.


----------



## SPX

Kinghercules said:


> Ok my thoughts.  From my above post you all know that I have no respect for the ATA and those that train in it . . .



Seems a silly reason to not have any respect for a person.  I can kind of get not respecting the organization, but why the negativity toward the individual practitioners?

And besides, it's already been established in this thread that some ATA guys have gone on to prove themselves in the wider world of combat sports.  So even if the organization has problems, there are some within it who have legitimate skills.


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The sparring in taekwondo does not resemble any real fight that you will see, regardless of which federation you are dealing with and regardless of the contact level or amount of protective gear worn.



I understand the point you're making here, but a "real fight" does sometimes look vaguely similar to a kickboxing match (and thus an ITF match).  Not every fight involves guys trying to gouge each others eyes out or take a person down.


----------



## terryl965

TKD, Karate, Kung Fu , weapons or even guns and knifes are whatever the person is willing to do in any stituation. If a person just goes to a gun range and fires at target does not mean they can point a gun at  aperson and shoot, the same thing goes for those in a martial art or sport if and when they need to defend themself it is a matter if they will. Some people are just victims no matter what they train in and others are the complete opposite without having any training. Enjoy what you do and remember that not everybody or person is in there for the same reasons.


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Iaido and iaijutsu are essentially the same thing: the art of drawing the sword and cutting in a single motion.  Iaido and iaijutsu utilize kata as the primary mechanism of training.  There is no sparring.  There is a deep philosophical element to ZNKR iaido, with the object of improving the practitioner as a person.  Having said that, a skilled iaido practitioner with a shinken could easily kill someone with the skills they have learned.
> 
> Kendo is fencing, and looks more like sword fighting than iaido.  Kendo has a kata element (paired kata) where bokuto or actual (though un-edged) swords are utilized.  One could certainly, with a shinken, kill a person with the skill that they have learned in kendo.
> 
> Kendo revolves around shiai; the match or bout.  Bouts in kendo are full contact.  Iaido revolves around kata practiced individually; I believe that there are thirteen ZNKR iaido kata.  There is no sparring in ZNKR iaido.  Nobody cares.  They don't practice iaido for the purpose of winning matches.
> 
> 
> Actually, taekwondo is more like kendo.  It is a modern unarmed art that is trained through kata (pumse/tul/hyeong/whatever Korean term is used) and shihap (sparring contests).  The purpose of the sparring is to score points, be it in continuous play or in point/stop sparring.  Belts, gender, and age are used for competition bracketing.
> 
> The sparring in taekwondo does not resemble any real fight that you will see, regardless of which federation you are dealing with and regardless of the contact level or amount of protective gear worn.
> 
> The purpose of taekwondo is similar to the purpose of kendo: to improve the practitioner as a person and member of collective humanity through the practice of taekwondo.  Yes, you can defend yourself with taekwondo.  But it is not the primary purpose of the art, and not everyone takes it specifically for self defense.



I think my point got lost in my ramblin.  
They have changed TKD into something that it wasnt before and if you're gonna do that then you should change the name as well.  

Let me ask you......if it was a Kyokushinkai school fightin the same way as the ATA would make the same argument?


----------



## Kinghercules

SPX said:


> For some reason I thought you were an ATA instructor. . .
> 
> 
> 
> I think a big difference is that iaido doesn't pretend to be something it's not.  ATA TKD calls itself just that, TKD, and if you're going to identify yourself with that martial art then people are going to expect certain things.  If they didn't call what they do TKD then they could avoid being held to the standards of such.
> 
> Also, isn't iaido the art of drawing the sword?  It would be difficult to fashion that into a competitive activity with sparring involved, I'd think.



Exactly!
ATA is frontin and they need to stop.


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but you didn't leave it at that, as evinced by the following:
> 
> 
> Please support this statement.  I have heard many criticisms of the ATA, but accusations of the founder being an instant BB are not among them.
> 
> 
> Where is this coming from?  Nobody has said anything to the effect that kids will never get into fights in school, so why are you going there?
> 
> 
> Kickboxing, regardless of the style or contact level, does not equate to self defense and certainly does not equate to rape prevention.
> 
> 99 percent of self defense is not about the physical.  Everything from where you choose to go (bars are generally a bad choice) to your cell phone habits affect your ability to defend yourself.  How you carry yourself and how you interract with others play a huge part in whether or not fights 'just come at you.'
> 
> I have no comment on how the ATA addresses the non physical portion of SD because I have never trained at an ATA school.
> 
> 
> For competition bracketing.  That is what belts are for, and they have no correlation to self defense.  Remember, taekwondo is the national sport of Korea and an olympic sport.
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, what is your experience with the ATA that has prompted you to make such strong statements about the organization?



It was on the their website.  The history of their founder (IDK his name).  He was a 1st or 2nd degree BB in Korea and Gen Choi offered to make him a 5th dan if he would join Choi's organization (which is why Ki Whang Kim didnt respect Choi either because he was doin that with alot of Korean students).  So he did and claimed that he had learned all the forms in one day and later had moved to the USA but then later he had split from Choi and created his own forms and a whole new sec of the TKD.  Now he's a grandmaster of his own TKD style.

For someone that has neva trained with them you are sure defending them vigorously! :lol:


----------



## Kinghercules

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> It could be fitness or fun, just like any other sport. A counter retort would be "if you want to defend yourself, why are you learning TKD and not firearms with a permit to carry a concealed weapon?".  I don't agree with people saying martial arts must be about self defence - let each person decide for himself (herself) why they pursue it.



Martial art=military art.
It wasnt always a sport.


----------



## Tez3

Kinghercules said:


> Martial art=military art.
> It wasnt always a sport.



Oh I don't know, I know a great many military people to whom fighting is a sport. 
You know of course that 'martial arts' is the name English speakers give to it, other languages call it different things not always anything to do with 'martial' or 'military'. Karate for example doesn't mean '_martial_ art'. I believe TKD doesn't mean martial arts either.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> I think my point got lost in my ramblin.
> They have changed TKD into something that it wasnt before and if you're gonna do that then you should change the name as well.


They did: they call their system Songham Taekwondo. They used Chang Hon forms prior to that. 



Kinghercules said:


> Let me ask you......if it was a Kyokushinkai school fightin the same way as the ATA would make the same argument?


What change the name from _karate_? No, though I would make the argument that they are out of line with _kyokushin_. But as I stated above, they changed that part of it. The system as it is taught today is out of line with Kukki taekwondo and Chang Hon taekwondo, but they changed the name to Songham taekwondo a couple of decades ago. They are a completely separate organization with a completely separate tournament circuit. Which incidentalally, is virtually nonexistent in DC according to the ATA website http://www.ataonline.com/schools/schoolsearch.asp. I have never seen one in Maryland, though supposedly, there is now one in North Potomac, which is not coincidentally, an affluent area. The next closest is Centreville in Northern Virginia, another nice suburban area. Your location shows you as being in DC, which means that you would have to try very hard to stumble into an ATA school. 

If you have never set foot in an ATA school and only have Youtube to go on, you might want to dial back your criticism a notch. I'm not sticking up for the ATA. Search the board and look for threads about child black belts and find my posts. I don't pull any punches. However, most everything that you accuse the ATA of is rampant in martial arts in the USA. 

One advantage to the ATA is that the organization is set up to be a family friendly environment promoting a martial arts themed athletic activity. Go into an ATA school and you know what you're getting into. There are plenty of KKW/WTF schools that have 'olympic this' and 'olympic that' splashed all through their literature but whose programs are just money making schemes for their owners, most of whom are tournament champions.

Outside of regurgitating known facts, I don't actively criticize the ATA. I have never trained or even set foot in an ATA school, so I do not have a knowledge base to make more than cursory observations.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> It was on the their website. The history of their founder (IDK his name). He was a 1st or 2nd degree BB in Korea and Gen Choi offered to make him a 5th dan if he would join Choi's organization (which is why Ki Whang Kim didnt respect Choi either because he was doin that with alot of Korean students). So he did and claimed that he had learned all the forms in one day and later had moved to the USA but then later he had split from Choi and created his own forms and a whole new sec of the TKD. Now he's a grandmaster of his own TKD style.


In other words, he did what all the rest of them did at that time and self promoted. Choi did the exact same thing.  Technically, so did all the rest of them, as most of them had Shotokan backgrounds.   



Kinghercules said:


> For someone that has neva trained with them you are sure defending them vigorously! :lol:


I would not call my statements anything resembling a defense, vigorous or otherwise.  My statements about the ATA are not anything that I would want said about my own studio.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Tez3 said:


> Oh I don't know, I know a great many military people to whom fighting is a sport.
> You know of course that 'martial arts' is the name English speakers give to it, other languages call it different things not always anything to do with 'martial' or 'military'. Karate for example doesn't mean '_martial_ art'. *I believe TKD doesn't mean martial arts either*.


Taekwondo means, 'To trample with the feet and to smash with the fist.' The often utilized 'foot fist way' is an oversimplification.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

SPX said:


> For some reason I thought you were an ATA instructor. . .



Heavens no!  I've never set foot in an ATA school.  I simply have been on MA boards for several years and have done a lot of research on various martial arts and MA orgs, including the ATA, so that I can converse intellignently with people.  



SPX said:


> I think a big difference is that iaido doesn't pretend to be something it's not. ATA TKD calls itself just that, TKD, and if you're going to identify yourself with that martial art then people are going to expect certain things. If they didn't call what they do TKD then they could avoid being held to the standards of such.


What do people expect that the ATA doesn't deliver?  Forms, check.  Board breaking, check.  A multitude of colored belts, check.  Some kind of sparring, check.

The fact that we don't _like_ their sparring rules (that seems to be the primary gripe that everyone has voiced) doesn't really chage that.  

As I stated before, their sparring rules don't bother me nearly as much as their grading system which seems designed to absolutely milk the students' bank accounts.  That and the fact that their tournaments apparently have a division for five to seven year old black belts.  In order to have such a division, you first have to award black belts to five, six, and seven year old children.  That problem, by the way, is not unique to the ATA.



SPX said:


> Also, isn't iaido the art of drawing the sword?



Iaido means, 'the way of mental presence.'  The art is centered around the drawing of and cutting with the sword in one clean motion.  This technique was developed when samurai shifted from longer swords that were hung from the belt with the edge pointing downward to shorter swords that were thrust through the belt with the edge pointing upward.  



SPX said:


> It would be difficult to fashion that into a competitive activity with sparring involved, I'd think.



You can make a sport out of *anything*.  Stick ice skates on a ballerina and call it figure skating, then judge it based entirely on subjective merit.  I don't consider figure skating to be a sport, but the IOC disagrees with me.

How could you make iaido?  Pad up in electric bogu and arm each participant with a curved 37 shinai (available on e-bogu).  Have both particpants 'draw' and attempt to cut eachother.  Limit cutting to one draw/cut and no more than three follow up cuts.  First one to strike the other with a valid cut wins the round.  Have best two out of three, four out of five, or whatever suits your fancy.  

I'm not suggesting that iai be made into a sport (I would be strongly opposed to it): simply that with not a whole lot of thought (I put less than two minutes into my above description) it can be done.


----------



## msmitht

Kinghercules said:


> It was on the their website.  The history of their founder (IDK his name).  He was a 1st or 2nd degree BB in Korea and Gen Choi offered to make him a 5th dan if he would join Choi's organization (which is why Ki Whang Kim didnt respect Choi either because he was doin that with alot of Korean students).  So he did and claimed that he had learned all the forms in one day and later had moved to the USA but then later he had split from Choi and created his own forms and a whole new sec of the TKD.  Now he's a grandmaster of his own TKD style.
> 
> For someone that has neva trained with them you are sure defending them vigorously! :lol:



They did it before and some still do it. I don't like the ata but there is a lot to be learned from their business model.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> Martial art=military art.
> It wasnt always a sport.


But was it ever truly a military art?  

Given that early taekwondo was essentially just Shotokan, the fact that it was being practiced in the military doesn't make it a military art.  The entire kyu/dan system that is used in taekwondo was lifted from the game of go and the belt system was invented by Kano with inspiration from athletics (swimming, if I recall) and has no military origins whatsoever.  Shotokan itself was a simplified amalgam of the systems that Funakoshi was versed in.  It is this style that is the primary donor art of taekwondo.  Shotokan was never a military art.  To imply that taekwondo, which developed from Shotokan, is somehow military in nature is a falacy.

By the time taekwondo was being put together, the primary military art was riflemanship, not feet and fist.  The primary weapon off of the battlefield was the pistol.  

Unarmed arts are not a part of warfare.  Haven't been for centuries.  Unarmed arts are practiced in the military to keep the soldiers in condition and to keep their competitive edge honed.  If you asked the USMC to practice songahm taekwondo as a part of their training regimen for two years, and then had the Marine Corp demo team show it off, it would look completely brutal.  Train in anything the way the marines train and it will be brutal.  Heck, train in songahm taekwondo the way that a professional boxer trains and you will be a very tough fighter.  Much of what makes the style effective is how you train in it, not the style itself.

Since most of us are civilians with day jobs, we don't have the kind of time to put into training that a professional fighter or soldier does.  So unless you are going to train like the ROK does on a daily basis, do not invoke the 'military art' line of reasoning.  It does not hold up under scrutiny.


----------



## SPX

Kinghercules said:


> Let me ask you......if it was a Kyokushinkai school fightin the same way as the ATA would make the same argument?



Well to be fair, that's not quite the same thing.

Kyokushin is a specific form of KARATE; TKD isn't a specific form of anything.  TKD is the Korean equivalent of Karate.

Your argument would work if there was a WTF TKD school, for instance, that was actually teaching the ATA curriculum.

EDIT:  I see Daniel Sullivan basically covered all of these earlier.


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Heavens no!  I've never set foot in an ATA school.  I simply have been on MA boards for several years and have done a lot of research on various martial arts and MA orgs, including the ATA, so that I can converse intellignently with people.



Okay, my bad.

I've read through a lot of older posts where ATA topics were covered and there were one or two guys who were ATA instructors who would often chime in.  I thought you were one of them.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> What do people expect that the ATA doesn't deliver?  Forms, check.  Board breaking, check.  A multitude of colored belts, check.  Some kind of sparring, check.
> 
> The fact that we don't _like_ their sparring rules (that seems to be the primary gripe that everyone has voiced) doesn't really chage that.



I think that what people really complain about is the SPIRIT of the organization . . . the attitude.  You have said the ATA provides a "martial arts themed athletic program."  I think most people would more or less agree, and that is NOT taekwondo, or at least is not supposed to be.

It's basically like they have the trappings of TKD--the forms, the breaking, the belts, the sparring--but they've put it through a machine that has made it all go retarded.  I guess a good way to put it is that ATA TKD is to ITF/WTF TKD as wushu is to traditional kung fu.  





Daniel Sullivan said:


> You can make a sport out of *anything*.  Stick ice skates on a ballerina and call it figure skating, then judge it based entirely on subjective merit.  I don't consider figure skating to be a sport, but the IOC disagrees with me.
> 
> How could you make iaido?  Pad up in electric bogu and arm each participant with a curved 37 shinai (available on e-bogu).  Have both particpants 'draw' and attempt to cut eachother.  Limit cutting to one draw/cut and no more than three follow up cuts.  First one to strike the other with a valid cut wins the round.  Have best two out of three, four out of five, or whatever suits your fancy.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that iai be made into a sport (I would be strongly opposed to it): simply that with not a whole lot of thought (I put less than two minutes into my above description) it can be done.



I didn't literally mean you couldn't make a sport out of it.  I meant it would be difficult to make a sport out of it that's not silly.


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you asked the USMC to practice songahm taekwondo as a part of their training regimen for two years, and then had the Marine Corp demo team show it off, it would look completely brutal.  Train in anything the way the marines train and it will be brutal.  Heck, train in songahm taekwondo the way that a professional boxer trains and you will be a very tough fighter.  Much of what makes the style effective is how you train in it, not the style itself.



Thanks for the mental image of Marines doing the Songahm forms with gusto.  

I do agree, though, in the hands of the right fighter just about any martial art can be used to positive effect.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

SPX said:


> Kyokushin is a specific form of KARATE; TKD isn't a specific form of anything. TKD is the Korean equivalent of Karate.


Well, taekwondo is specifically taekwondo.  Your statement below....



SPX said:


> Your argument would work if there was a WTF TKD school, for instance, that was actually teaching the ATA *curriculum*.


... is more accurate; there is a Kukkiwon, a Chang Hon, and a Songahm curriculum and WTF, ITF, and ATA tournament rule sets.  

Each curriculum is an expression of different groups of personalities or individual personalities.  Each rule set emphasizes different elements of taekwondo; WTF emphasizes high kicking and evokes Korean cultural preference for kicking games, specifically Taekkyeon, and is full contact.  ATA rules are essentially the same, but with an emphasis on control (hence the light contact).  ITF rules reflect taekwondo's karate heritage and are more ballanced between hands and feet.  All three are continuous so far as I know.

Each association has their own set of forms, but that really doesn't make them separate styles; taekwondo began with Pinan/Heian forms, then transitioned to Palgwe forms, and then to the current Taegeuk forms.  Choi made the Chang Hon forms just to separate himself from everyone else, but they look more like karate forms.  The ATA broke from the ITF and used Chang Hon forms originally, and then, to separate *them*selves from everyone else, created the Songahm forms.

Karate ryus tend to have greater variance between them, and are further differentiated by Japanese vs. Okinawan karate.  There really is only one taekwondo, with one main association (KKW/WTF) and two smaller associations (ITF and ATA) each teaching it.



SPX said:


> EDIT: I see Daniel Sullivan basically covered all of these earlier.


I've been busy today!


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Karate ryus tend to have greater variance between them, and are further differentiated by Japanese vs. Okinawan karate.  There really is only one taekwondo, with one main association (KKW/WTF) and two smaller associations (ITF and ATA) each teaching it.



While it is true that the KKW is the 'main' association with millions of members worldwide, I don't share your opinion about there being only one taekwondo.  How can there be?  What I learned as a Jhoon Rhee Texkwondo guy is rather different from the ATA curriculum my niece and nephew practic, even though both styles were the brain children of Chung Do Kwan men.  On the other hand both systems are probably closer to each other than what is offered at my friend's dojang (lots of kicking focused drills and sparring).

There are dozens and dozens of so-called TKD styles.  Most likely are close to each other in training methodology, but I wouldn't assume that is true of all of them.  It's not quite the same level of variation as you see in karate, but I think those days are coming, particularly in the United States where the KKW does not hold the monopoly/market leadership it does in other parts of the world.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

SPX said:


> I think that what people really complain about is the SPIRIT of the organization . . . the attitude. You have said the ATA provides a "martial arts themed athletic program." I think most people would more or less agree, and that is NOT taekwondo, or at least is not supposed to be.
> 
> It's basically like they have the trappings of TKD--the forms, the breaking, the belts, the sparring--but they've put it through a machine that has made it all go retarded.


I think that that pretty well sums it up, though I'd replace retarded with corporate.  The emphasis is definitely on running a successful business. 

The grading, which is my biggest beef with the association, is a good example.  There are eight geubs that you test for (you start at ninth if I'm not mistaken), but each geub has a recommended level and a decided level.  That is sixteen gradings, each of which carries a testing fee.  Then you go through the same with dan grade.  

I'm also pretty sure, though I could be mistaken, that the ATA is the source of all of those pesky add on extra cost clubs, such as black belt clugs, masters clubs, leadership clubs, etc.

On top of that are all of the various programs that you can get 'certified' in, such as ground fighting, XMA and Krav Maga and a weapons program.  All of which are at extra cost.

Certainly, you get out what you put in.  A hard training dedicated student will excel almost no matter where he or she trains.  But their wallet will take a serious beating at an ATA school from what I have gathered.

I will also say that there are likely some very good and very dedicated teachers within the organization.

In all, it is very important to know what you want before you go looking for a place to train.  A suburban mom in North Potomac or Potomac is going to have a very different set of priorities from an eighteen year old male from Capitol Heights, or really anywhere for that matter.  Most areas that can support martial arts will have more than one school.  People should look at them very carefully before commiting and if quality training is a high priority, be willing to travel a little to attend a school that offers it.

If you want to get your kid off of the X box and moving around in a "Rah! Rah! Attaboy!!" atmosphere that will make him or her feel good about themselves and provide them with a healthy environment in which to engage in physical activity, the ATA is a good choice, provided you don't mind paying the premium.


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Each association has their own set of forms, but that really doesn't make them separate styles



While you may be technically correct, I think it's only a technicality.

WTF TKD is really quite different from ITF TKD, and not just in the ruleset.  The stances are often higher, the striking surface with the round kick is often different, etc.  It's as different (and similar) as, say, Shotokan is from many of its offshoots.

Plus, if the rulesets are different, and the school is competitive in nature, you're just going to learn the skills in different ways.  That's all there is to it.  There's a reason ITF guys are usually better with their hands than WTF guys are, etc.

TKD is not unified.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> While it is true that the KKW is the 'main' association with millions of members worldwide, I don't share your opinion about there being only one taekwondo. How can there be?
> 
> What I learned as a Jhoon Rhee Texkwondo guy is rather different from the ATA curriculum my niece and nephew practic, even though both styles were the brain children of Chung Do Kwan men. On the other hand both systems are probably closer to each other than what is offered at my friend's dojang (lots of kicking focused drills and sparring).


Different curriculums, one art.  I covered my reasons for the statement in the post that you quoted from.  Essentially, if you take away the difference between the ITF sparring rules and the WTF and ATA rules, it all comes down to what a school owner or group wish to emphasize.  In KKW forms, the hand techniques by far outnumber the foot techniques, and I would be willing to bet that the technique set from association to association is essentially the same (ITF hoshinsul is grafted on hapkido, not taekwondo, and from what ITF folks say, it is not commonly taught in ITF schools.  Earl could probably verify that one way or the other) and that the way that the techniques are practically executed do not vary all that much, if at all.

I'm sure that there are indepenents with greater variance, and Jhoon Rhee would be the biggest of these.  But I'm not willing to actually go further than what I have said in my above statements at this point in time.

One of the reasons why you see less variance in TKD than you do in karate is because at this point in time, unarmed arts are no longer driven to develop in different directions outside of competition the way that they may have been a hundred years ago.  And with the sharing of information, the proliferation of styles and martial arts, and the ability of instructors to become very familiar with different styles, most styles have developed to about the greatest extent that they can short of being artificially altered in order to appeal to differing markets.  Any radical variance you can think of likely already has an art to accomodate it.  

It seems that most of the evolution of martial arts these days is the morphing of them into fitness programs (Forza samurai sword workout anyone?)



dancingalone said:


> There are dozens and dozens of so-called TKD styles. Most likely are close to each other in training methodology, but I wouldn't assume that is true of all of them. It's not quite the same level of variation as you see in karate, but *I think those days are coming*, particularly in the United States where the KKW does not hold the monopoly/market leadership it does in other parts of the world.


Certainly possible.  Taekwondo is less than a century old, which is pretty young as martial arts go.  I suspect that the fortunes of the US economy and taekwondo's fortunes in the Olympics over the next decade or so will have a fairly strong effect on the direction of taekwondo in the US.

A lot depends on trends in the US as well.  MMA doesn't seem to be as ever present as it was even two years ago, and comparisons to MMA no longer are being made in every thread on every MA board.  Three years ago, it seemed that the entire MA world in the US was poised to incorporate MMA.  Now, MMA seems to have settled into its own niche, has won its respect, and TMAs have all benefited from the addition of MMA to the landscape.  The economy is lousy, so many MA schools are barely hanging on.  

In my area at least, the field has been thinned considerably in the last four years.  We'll see what the field looks like in another five years.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

SPX said:


> While you may be technically correct, I think it's only a technicality.
> 
> WTF TKD is really quite different from ITF TKD, and not just in the ruleset. The stances are often higher, the striking surface with the round kick is often different, etc. It's as different (and similar) as, say, Shotokan is from many of its offshoots.
> 
> Plus, if the rulesets are different, and the school is competitive in nature, you're just going to learn the skills in different ways. That's all there is to it. There's a reason ITF guys are usually better with their hands than WTF guys are, etc.
> 
> *TKD is not unified*.


No, it isn't.  It simply hasn't completely broken apart yet, inspite of the best efforts of many involved.


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> MMA doesn't seem to be as ever present as it was even two years ago, and comparisons to MMA no longer are being made in every thread on every MA board.  Three years ago, it seemed that the entire MA world in the US was poised to incorporate MMA.  Now, MMA seems to have settled into its own niche, has won its respect, and TMAs have all benefited from the addition of MMA to the landscape.



It's true, in general, that MMA has dropped somewhat in popularity over the past year to two years.  This is especially obvious in the number of viewers that are tuning in for MMA on cable networks.  The Ultimate Fighter is no longer doing great numbers, Strikeforce events aren't doing as well as they used to, Bellator isn't doing as well as it used to, etc.   Also, MMA in Japan has all but completely collapsed.  And advertisers are reporting fewer click-throughs now on MMA websites than they were getting a couple of years ago.  At the same time though, the UFC is expanding wider than ever, having finally landed a deal with a non-cable network (FOX), having recently gone back to Brazil for the first time since 1998, and about to go back to Japan for the first time since 1997.

To be honest, I really miss the 80s.  Martial arts in general still had a mystique surrounding them that just doesn't exist today.  We may have all been delusional about "teh deadly kung fu" and how awesome ninjas are, but it sure was a lot of fun.


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Different curriculums, one art.  I covered my reasons for the statement in the post that you quoted from.  Essentially, if you take away the difference between the ITF sparring rules and the WTF and ATA rules, it all comes down to what a school owner or group wish to emphasize.  In KKW forms, the hand techniques by far outnumber the foot techniques, and I would be willing to bet that the technique set from association to association is essentially the same (ITF hoshinsul is grafted on hapkido, not taekwondo, and from what ITF folks say, it is not commonly taught in ITF schools.  Earl could probably verify that one way or the other) and that the way that the techniques are practically executed do not vary all that much, if at all.



I agree if you take away the sparring rules, you take away a lot of the technical differences - but frankly that would be a misrepresentation of the current realities of TKD styles.  What about some things like 'badda' (sp) kicks that are bread and butter for the Olympic folks here on MT?  It's definitely an adaption added precisely because of the ruleset they compete under and it has become part and parcel part of their style.   There are surely other technical examples too.  We can't say take away the sparring rules and say they are all the same without them.  These sparring adaptations are integral differences after all -  doing so is a bit like saying, at the risk of trolling, that all that separates a LDS from a Catholic is the Book of Mormon.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm sure that there are indepenents with greater variance, and Jhoon Rhee would be the biggest of these.  But I'm not willing to actually go further than what I have said in my above statements at this point in time.



There are more and more examples with every year.  The local Premier Martial Arts franchises teach a TKD heavily influenced by Krav Maga and they have kickboxing classes too.  The ATA continues to evolve and so does the ITA (or whatever they call themselves now) - they're always adding more supplementary classes in KM, hapkido, Filipino arts, etc.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> One of the reasons why you see less variance in TKD than you do in karate is because at this point in time, unarmed arts are no longer driven to develop in different directions outside of competition the way that they may have been a hundred years ago.  And with the sharing of information, the proliferation of styles and martial arts, and the ability of instructors to become very familiar with different styles, most styles have developed to about the greatest extent that they can short of being artificially altered in order to appeal to differing markets.  Any radical variance you can think of likely already has an art to accomodate it.
> 
> It seems that most of the evolution of martial arts these days is the morphing of them into fitness programs (Forza samurai sword workout anyone?)



It is already evolving more than we think sometimes driven by market forces.  Kiddifying TKD is one example where contact is light or nonexistent and most everything else has also been appropriately sanitized.   Making it more of a physical exercise effort is another as you allude to.

I do think there is more of a general awareness about being a 'complete' martial art now.  Many of the professional teachers I interact with are very cognizant about what they do or don't teach and they generally do a good job of referring prospective students to training situations where they might be happier as students and consumers.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Certainly possible.  Taekwondo is less than a century old, which is pretty young as martial arts go.  I suspect that the fortunes of the US economy and taekwondo's fortunes in the Olympics over the next decade or so will have a fairly strong effect on the direction of taekwondo in the US.



I don't see actual Olympic TKD as being much of a market influence in of itself as a popularity driver.  We already know Olympic TKD has next to no appeal to the US consumer.  Where it might be a factor is where technical influences created as a result of the competition might make their way downstream to 'normal' TKD students.   



Daniel Sullivan said:


> A lot depends on trends in the US as well.  MMA doesn't seem to be as ever present as it was even two years ago, and comparisons to MMA no longer are being made in every thread on every MA board.  Three years ago, it seemed that the entire MA world in the US was poised to incorporate MMA.  Now, MMA seems to have settled into its own niche, has won its respect, and TMAs have all benefited from the addition of MMA to the landscape.  The economy is lousy, so many MA schools are barely hanging on.
> 
> In my area at least, the field has been thinned considerably in the last four years.  We'll see what the field looks like in another five years.



MMA seems to be doing ok as a spectator sport.  I see a lot more coverage of UFC events in mainstream media sources like ESPN than I ever had before.  '

I do agree the MMA/BJJ schools are not immune to the bad economy.  A few of the least established grappling schools in my area have closed in the last year, although to be fair, the bigger ones are doing fine.


----------



## Tez3

SPX said:


> It's true, in general, that MMA has dropped somewhat in popularity over the past year to two years. This is especially obvious in the number of viewers that are tuning in for MMA on cable networks. The Ultimate Fighter is no longer doing great numbers, Strikeforce events aren't doing as well as they used to, Bellator isn't doing as well as it used to, etc. Also, MMA in Japan has all but completely collapsed. And advertisers are reporting fewer click-throughs now on MMA websites than they were getting a couple of years ago. At the same time though, the UFC is expanding wider than ever, having finally landed a deal with a non-cable network (FOX), having recently gone back to Brazil for the first time since 1998, and about to go back to Japan for the first time since 1997.
> 
> To be honest, I really miss the 80s. Martial arts in general still had a mystique surrounding them that just doesn't exist today. We may have all been delusional about "teh deadly kung fu" and how awesome ninjas are, but it sure was a lot of fun.



What mystique? What's with the 'we' bit? Most people I knew in martial arts in the 80s were full contact karateka, nothing mysterious, just knock out kicks and punches. That was and is good fun not pratting around as ersatz ninjas.


MMA is rising in popularity in the UK and Europe with more promotions enjoying success every month. TUF was show business rather than MMA anyway, good riddance if that disappears. France and Eire have made it legal. East Europeans are loving it, are sending fighters over as we are to them.

When Daniel said that MMA doesn't seem as ever present I don't think he meant it's less popular but as he said it's found it's niche, people have stopped being 'shocked' by it so less (unfavourable) publicity so it doesn't seem to be all over the media as the devils own sport.


----------



## SPX

Tez3 said:


> What mystique? What's with the 'we' bit? Most people I knew in martial arts in the 80s were full contact karateka, nothing mysterious, just knock out kicks and punches. That was and is good fun not pratting around as ersatz ninjas.



Oh, Tez.  My good friend and, I'm beginning to think, arch-nemesis. . .

If my post didn't describe you then it wasn't for you.  How's that?




Tez3 said:


> When Daniel said that MMA doesn't seem as ever present I don't think he meant it's less popular but as he said it's found it's niche, people have stopped being 'shocked' by it so less (unfavourable) publicity so it doesn't seem to be all over the media as the devils own sport.



Maybe in Europe the situation is different, but on the global scene MMA is not showing the same kind of growth it did a couple of years ago.  Like I said, ratings on free cable shows are down.  Apparel sales are down.  Click-throughs are down.  This is a well-known fact in the industry.  It's not my opinion.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> I agree if you take away the sparring rules, you take away a lot of the technical differences - but frankly that would be a misrepresentation of the current realities of TKD styles.  What about some things like 'badda' (sp) kicks that are bread and butter for the Olympic folks here on MT?  It's definitely an adaption added precisely because of the ruleset they compete under and it has become part and parcel part of their style.   There are surely other technical examples too.  We can't say take away the sparring rules and say they are all the same without them.  These sparring adaptations are integral differences after all -  doing so is a bit like saying, at the risk of trolling, that all that separates a LDS from a Catholic is the Book of Mormon.



100% agree.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I agree if you take away the sparring rules,  you take away a lot of the technical differences - but frankly that  would be a misrepresentation of the current realities of TKD styles.   What about some things like 'badda' (sp) kicks that are bread and butter  for the Olympic folks here on MT?  It's definitely an adaption added  precisely because of the ruleset they compete under and it has become  part and parcel part of their style.   There are surely other technical  examples too.  We can't say take away the sparring rules and say they  are all the same without them.  These sparring adaptations are integral  differences after all -  doing so is a bit like saying, at the risk of  trolling, that all that separates a LDS from a Catholic is the Book of  Mormon.


As I said, different expressions of what is still essentially the same  art, something that cannot be said of LDS and Catholicism.  If you are  going to use religions as an example, mainline Protestantism,  Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodox would be a better fit.  

And what the heck is a badda kick???



dancingalone said:


> There are more and more examples with every  year.  The local Premier Martial Arts franchises teach a TKD heavily  influenced by Krav Maga and they have kickboxing classes too.  The ATA  continues to evolve and so does the ITA (or whatever they call  themselves now) - they're always adding more supplementary classes in  KM, hapkido, Filipino arts, etc.


As I said to SPX, it is not a unified art; it simply hasn't broken apart completely.



dancingalone said:


> It is already evolving more than we think  sometimes driven by market forces.  Kiddifying TKD is one example where  contact is light or nonexistent and most everything else has also been  appropriately sanitized.   Making it more of a physical exercise effort  is another as you allude to.


That is exactly what I meant.   It is evolving, but the evolution is not driven by real world/practical  effectiveness, but rather by competition peculiarities and market  forces.



dancingalone said:


> I do think there is more of a general  awareness about being a 'complete' martial art now.  Many of the  professional teachers I interact with are very cognizant about what they  do or don't teach and they generally do a good job of referring  prospective students to training situations where they might be happier  as students and consumers.


Yes, and I think that MMA is largely responsible for that.



dancingalone said:


> I don't see actual Olympic TKD as being much  of a market influence in of itself as a popularity driver.  We already  know Olympic TKD has next to no appeal to the US consumer.  Where it  might be a factor is where technical influences created as a result of  the competition might make their way downstream to 'normal' TKD  students.


Saying the word, 'Olympic' has the same magic in the mind of some people  (suburban moms in particular) that saying black belt has in the minds  of others. The popularity of TKD in the Olympics doesn't matter.  It is  the popularity of the Olympics that is capitalized on.



dancingalone said:


> MMA seems to be doing ok as a spectator  sport.  I see a lot more coverage of UFC events in mainstream media  sources like ESPN than I ever had before.  '
> 
> I do agree the MMA/BJJ schools are not immune to the bad economy.  A few  of the least established grappling schools in my area have closed in  the last year, although to be fair, the bigger ones are doing fine.


Just to clarify, I am not implying that MMA has dropped off in  popularity.  Only that it seems to have settled into the space that it  has created in the MA world and is coexisting with other MAs.  Kangs  Blackbelt Academy has an MMA instructor and when I leave kendo class, I  pass by and see that he is still going strong well after nine at night.   I hope that he continues to do so.  

In a bad economy, MA  schools in general will suffer, be they MMA or TMA.  Unfortunately, what  will determine which schools survive is not necessarily the quality of  the school (though it helps) but the business savvy of the school owner.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Tez3 said:


> When Daniel said that MMA doesn't seem as ever present I don't think he meant it's less popular but as he said it's found it's niche, people have stopped being 'shocked' by it so less (unfavourable) publicity so it doesn't seem to be all over the media as the devils own sport.


That is exactly what I was talking about.  Popularity of the sport was not on my mind at all.


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just to clarify, I am not implying that MMA has dropped off in  popularity.  Only that it seems to have settled into the space that it  has created in the MA world and is coexisting with other MAs.



Well it's popularity HAS declined somewhat among casual fans.

As for co-existing with other MAs, I think it has always done that, though Machida is largely to "blame" for getting MMA fans to chill out when it comes to recognizing the value of karate (and by extension, to some extent, TKD).


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In other words, he did what all the rest of them did at that time and self promoted. Choi did the exact same thing.  Technically, so did all the rest of them, as most of them had Shotokan backgrounds.
> 
> 
> I would not call my statements anything resembling a defense, vigorous or otherwise.  My statements about the ATA are not anything that I would want said about my own studio.



No not all of them.  Ki Whang Kim had trained in Japan and fought in Japan, trained in China and fought in China and trained & fought in Korea.  That is one of the reasons why many Korean masters had mad respect for GM Kim.  Tiger Kim had also had trained and fought in Korea.  Him and GM Kim were very good friends. And by training I mean going thru the ranks.


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> They did: they call their system Songham Taekwondo. They used Chang Hon forms prior to that.
> 
> 
> What change the name from _karate_? No, though I would make the argument that they are out of line with _kyokushin_. But as I stated above, they changed that part of it. The system as it is taught today is out of line with Kukki taekwondo and Chang Hon taekwondo, but they changed the name to Songham taekwondo a couple of decades ago. They are a completely separate organization with a completely separate tournament circuit. Which incidentalally, is virtually nonexistent in DC according to the ATA website http://www.ataonline.com/schools/schoolsearch.asp. I have never seen one in Maryland, though supposedly, there is now one in North Potomac, which is not coincidentally, an affluent area. The next closest is Centreville in Northern Virginia, another nice suburban area. Your location shows you as being in DC, which means that you would have to try very hard to stumble into an ATA school.
> 
> If you have never set foot in an ATA school and only have Youtube to go on, you might want to dial back your criticism a notch. I'm not sticking up for the ATA. Search the board and look for threads about child black belts and find my posts. I don't pull any punches. However, most everything that you accuse the ATA of is rampant in martial arts in the USA.
> 
> One advantage to the ATA is that the organization is set up to be a family friendly environment promoting a martial arts themed athletic activity. Go into an ATA school and you know what you're getting into. There are plenty of KKW/WTF schools that have 'olympic this' and 'olympic that' splashed all through their literature but whose programs are just money making schemes for their owners, most of whom are tournament champions.
> 
> Outside of regurgitating known facts, I don't actively criticize the ATA. I have never trained or even set foot in an ATA school, so I do not have a knowledge base to make more than cursory observations.



No I wouldnt have known what I'll be gettin into.  It says "Taekwondo" and so I would be thinkin about doin some real sparring.   And lets be clear.....TKD hasnt always been just the focus on kickin.  Because back in the 70's & early 80's that wasnt the case.  Somewhere down the line they have made it into that.  I and I think that is a said case.  Because thats not what Ki Whang Kim had in mind when he talked about bringin the Korean arts together under TKD.  Nor did Tiger Kim or Henry Cho.

But like I said....if you gonna change the philosophy and create a whole new set of forms then you need to change the name of the style.  As a kid I didnt understand why some of the older BBs keep sayin "dis aint TKD."  But know that Im older I see why.  I believe GM Ki Whang Kim shouldve named his own style.  They had created a whole new approach to fight and we didnt train or fight like TKD ppl.


----------



## Tez3

SPX said:


> Oh, Tez. My good friend and, I'm beginning to think, arch-nemesis. . .
> 
> If my post didn't describe you then it wasn't for you. How's that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe in Europe the situation is different, but on the global scene MMA is not showing the same kind of growth it did a couple of years ago. Like I said, ratings on free cable shows are down. Apparel sales are down. Click-throughs are down. This is a well-known fact in the industry. It's not my opinion.




Opinion yes, but fact? You will have to post figures for that to be proven, on MT you will find proof is wanted.

What on earth do you think I am ..'if it doesn't describe you'... you can't keep people out of a conversation on here, you can't choose who reads, who doesn't, who has an opinion and who doesn't. I was around in the 80s, 'doing' martial arts, Wado Ryu actually and there was no mystique just hard work.

The continent of Europe covers a large proportion of this planet, there are over *50 countries* in Europe so only a small proportion then, not worth mentioning in a 'global' context. 'Cable' is a big thing I believe in America, it's not however that widely used elsewhere so in 50 countries at least it would be surprising if anything in cable rated highly. Besides most people watch it on their computers about which I'm saying nothng as I believe it's not exactly legal lol!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> No not all of them. Ki Whang Kim had trained in Japan and fought in Japan, trained in China and fought in China and trained & fought in Korea. That is one of the reasons why many Korean masters had mad respect for GM Kim. Tiger Kim had also had trained and fought in Korea. Him and GM Kim were very good friends. And by training I mean going thru the ranks.


They all ranked themselves above anything that they received abroad.  Any of the founders who had trained outside of Korea broke off from their parent organizations either ranked themselves or were ranked by those around them to higher grades than they would have achieved within the original styles in which they trained.  They had to; they were creating new organizations.  

Haeng Ung Lee did not break off until 1969 and was involved with taekwondo for like a decade and a half.  No idea when he was pronounced by ninth dan, nor am I sure when Ki Whang Kim was pronounced as such (he was ranked 3rd dan in Shudokan karate by Toyoma Sensei). What did he do that was so different from what any of the others did?


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As I said, different expressions of what is still essentially the same  art, something that cannot be said of LDS and Catholicism.  If you are  going to use religions as an example, mainline Protestantism,  Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodox would be a better fit.



We'll have to disagree on this one.  I see a real divergence as I look around the TKD landscape.  We all practice different things, sometimes dramatically so.  The curricula IS the art - as I've said many times before here, we get good at what we practice.  Well by the same logic, if we practice different things, then our styles likewise are different too.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> As I said to SPX, it is not a unified art; it simply hasn't broken apart completely.



It never has been a unified art, the efforts of the KTA, then General Choi, and now the KKW notwithstanding.  Using the word broken implies that TKD was 'whole' at one point and I don't know that it ever has been.  And I am more than fine with that.  I like diversity.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> And what the heck is a badda kick???



Basically a specific variation of a switch roundhouse kick.  KKW guys like ATC and puunui have written about it before.



> That is exactly what I meant.   It is evolving, but the evolution is not driven by real world/practical  effectiveness, but rather by competition peculiarities and market  forces.



Those TKD styles that seek to graft on elements from other martial arts are trying to improve their effectiveness.  It's hard to say how successful they will be as indeed martial artists in general just don't have the opportunities to test themselves compared to generations past.




> Saying the word, 'Olympic' has the same magic in the mind of some people  (suburban moms in particular) that saying black belt has in the minds  of others. The popularity of TKD in the Olympics doesn't matter.  It is  the popularity of the Olympics that is capitalized on.



That may be the case.  In my experience, most people looking to train in TKD or any other martial art know nothing about the Olympics in connection with TKD.  They think of figure skating or gymnastics when the five colored rings come up.


----------



## Tez3

dancingalone said:


> We'll have to disagree on this one. I see a real divergence as I look around the TKD landscape. We all practice different things, sometimes dramatically so. The curricula IS the art - as I've said many times before here, we get good at what we practice. Well by the same logic, if we practice different things, then our styles likewise are different too.
> 
> 
> 
> It never has been a unified art, the efforts of the KTA, then General Choi, and now the KKW notwithstanding. Using the word broken implies that TKD was 'whole' at one point and I don't know that it ever has been. And I am more than fine with that. I like diversity.
> 
> 
> 
> Basically a specific variation of a switch roundhouse kick. KKW guys like ATC and puunui have written about it before.
> 
> 
> 
> Those TKD styles that seek to graft on elements from other martial arts are trying to improve their effectiveness. It's hard to say how successful they will be as indeed martial artists in general just don't have the opportunities to test themselves compared to generations past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may be the case. In my experience, most people looking to train in TKD or any other martial art know nothing about the Olympics in connection with TKD. They think of figure skating or gymnastics when the five colored rings come up.



Here certainly I think TKD and Olympics are thought of in the same way, the last Olympics brought TKD to the public's attention and great indignation when Sarah Stevenson was cheated out of her chance of a gold medla, it was all over the media. I've certainly seen articles and ads in the media now for TKD clubs saying they have or will train 'Olympic hopefuls'. In the run up to the Olympics in London there's a big focus on athletes who can win us medals, TKD is certainly being pushed as one of the sports that can do this so I'm afraid TKD and Olympics go together a lot now.


----------



## miguksaram

Kinghercules said:


> No I wouldnt have known what I'll be gettin into.  It says "Taekwondo" and so I would be thinkin about doin some real sparring.


Really?  When I think TKD my mind usually reflects to board breaking and flying side kicks.  So if I was to go into an ATA school and that is what I would be lead to believe that is what is being taught.  My point?  Your preconceived notion of what something is or is not, has little bearing on what it actually is.  So if something does not meet my preconceived notion of what it is, should I tell them to change their name or should I instead broaden my horizon on what something is or is not.  Plus, if you signed a contract without first finding out what you would be getting, then frankly you are an idiot (note: using a general term of 'you' not specifically targeting anyone).  



> And lets be clear.....TKD hasnt always been just the focus on kickin.  Because back in the 70's & early 80's that wasnt the case.  Somewhere down the line they have made it into that.  I and I think that is a said case.  Because thats not what Ki Whang Kim had in mind when he talked about bringin the Korean arts together under TKD.  Nor did Tiger Kim or Henry Cho.


You could not be more wrong on this.
First Exibit A taken in the early 80's:




Exhibit B taken in the the 60's:




And finally Exhibit C taken in early 60's of HC Hwang:




TKD has not changed its focus in what it does, it has simply evolved in the way it does it.  I am curious as how you know the mindset of GM Ki Whang Kim, GM Tiger Kim or GM Henry Cho?



> But like I said....if you gonna change the philosophy and create a whole new set of forms then you need to change the name of the style.  As a kid I didnt understand why some of the older BBs keep sayin "dis aint TKD."  But know that Im older I see why.  I believe GM Ki Whang Kim shouldve named his own style.  They had created a whole new approach to fight and we didnt train or fight like TKD ppl.


Do not confuse style with system.  As it has already been pointed out there are several different form of TKD floating out there.  Just as there are a multitude of different types of karate out there.  I learn and teach Shorei-ryu Karate.  Should I tell a Goju stylist that he cannot call his art karate because his forms and philosophy are different than mine?  Of course not.  ITF-TKD and KKW-TKD may be different styles but they are still based off the system of TKD.  

Perhaps GM Ki Whang Kim should have developed his own style, but I would still gather to say that whatever he called it, he would have still tied to the system of TKD.

As far as GM Ki Whang Kim


----------



## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> Here certainly I think TKD and Olympics are thought of in the same way, the last Olympics brought TKD to the public's attention and great indignation when Sarah Stevenson was cheated out of her chance of a gold medla, it was all over the media. I've certainly seen articles and ads in the media now for TKD clubs saying they have or will train 'Olympic hopefuls'. In the run up to the Olympics in London there's a big focus on athletes who can win us medals, TKD is certainly being pushed as one of the sports that can do this so I'm afraid TKD and Olympics go together a lot now.



<shrugs>  I wouldn't dream to speak of what currently happens in Britain.  

I know the general awareness of Olympic TKD within the US is next to nil.  We get no coverage of it at all on television, cable or otherwise.  No one follows the sport unless they are already involved in it somehow unlike popular spectator sports such as basketball, baseball, etc.  Most of the TKD parents I have encountered would be hard pressed to think of TKD as anything other than something their kids do as a hobby - 'unfortunate' as that might be it is the reality here.


----------



## Tez3

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs> I wouldn't dream to speak of what currently happens in Britain.
> 
> I know the general awareness of Olympic TKD within the US is next to nil. We get no coverage of it at all on television, cable or otherwise. No one follows the sport unless they are already involved in it somehow unlike popular spectator sports such as basketball, baseball, etc. Most of the TKD parents I have encountered would be hard pressed to think of TKD as anything other than something their kids do as a hobby - 'unfortunate' as that might be it is the reality here.



It's a shame that it gets no coverage, I'm not a fan of Olympic TKD but it's nice when Brits get recognition for doing well so I would have thought the American media would give some recognition when American sportsmen and women do well. Everyone likes to know when their sports people do well on the world stage.
It's ashame too that you don't get coverage or more sports, we get Eurosport channels, we were watching the last Winter Olympics and have found some more sports we like watching. Eurosport shows a huge variety of sports and I expect the London Olympics to have good coverage. You may be able to pick it up through the computer which means you can watch all the sports that usually get missed as well as the martial arts ones of TKD and Judo.


----------



## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> It's a shame that it gets no coverage, I'm not a fan of Olympic TKD but it's nice when Brits get recognition for doing well so I would have thought the American media would give some recognition when American sportsmen and women do well. Everyone likes to know when their sports people do well on the world stage.



To be fair, people in judo and fencing get little coverage also, even though we've had a great like Mike Swain to follow if we wanted.  There are many Olympic sports.  Not all are compelling to American TV viewers regardless of the patriotism factor.



Tez3 said:


> It's ashame too that you don't get coverage or more sports, we get Eurosport channels, we were watching the last Winter Olympics and have found some more sports we like watching. Eurosport shows a huge variety of sports and I expect the London Olympics to have good coverage. You may be able to pick it up through the computer which means you can watch all the sports that usually get missed as well as the martial arts ones of TKD and Judo.



I don't know that it's necessarily a shame.  I remember TKD getting a bit of air time when it was first added to the Games.  I believe TV network executives are more than happy to televise whatever receives good ratings.  It would seem that we Americans would rather watch gymnastics, track and field, tennis, boxing, swimming, etc. when it comes to Olympic sports, even given the familiarity TKD has as a kid's activity in suburban America.  So be it - the market has spoken.  

If there is an interest in popularizing Olympic TKD to the masses, some changes need to be made.  It's clearly missing something now.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Kinghercules said:


> But like I said....if you gonna change the philosophy and create a whole new set of forms then you need to change the name of the style. As a kid I didnt understand why some of the older BBs keep sayin "dis aint TKD." But know that Im older I see why. I believe GM Ki Whang Kim shouldve named his own style. They had created a whole new approach to fight and we didnt train or fight like TKD ppl.



Well, from some perspectives you have a very good point.  I guess you simply need to understand another perspecive.  For some, TKD was intended to be not only a unifying name but a unified system as well that could be taugh to the masses as such. This was no different than what Kano did in developing Judo, Funakoshi for Shotokan, Ueshiba for Aikido, etc. 

The plan seemed to be to have a name, develop a system, and recruit and train instructors in this system. 

Now, another perspective was to simply have an umbrella name which was also resisted in some circles. (Why an umbrella name for different systems was needed eludes me.)  All sorts of pressures were used to get people to adopt the name for various systems.  The most influential pressure seemed to be jumping on the popularity bandwagon.  Anyone with any link to a Korean who kicked and punched adopted the name if they chose to jump on the bandwagon.


Although initial attemps at enforcing a single system met with huge resistance when General Choi did it, it seems although the KKW originaly was more inclusive of other systems they have been moving very strongly to the unified system approach.  

You can decide which perspective carries more weight.


----------



## Earl Weiss

dancingalone said:


> If there is an interest in popularizing Olympic TKD to the masses, some changes need to be made. It's clearly missing something now.



Outside of the WTF Universe people cannot identify with this typoe of sparring.   For the life of me though I can't see that it has less public appeal than Curling, except that perhaps curling is much easier for the public to understand.  It is similar with MMA. Those without a grappling background migh see a lot of purposeless rolling around while the knowledgeable spectator will see the knolwedge and athleticism employed while various finishing holds are attempted and countered. 

The key to more TV Time for almost any athletic event is simple. Get Sponsorship dollars by convincing them that their association with this activity will sell product / services and then make it work.  TV stations / netowrks make $ from the advertising, not the competition. For years MMA had trouble getting sponsors due to negative aspects, and then seemingly "Manly" products like Harley Davidson and Budweiser took a chance.


----------



## dancingalone

Earl Weiss said:


> Outside of the WTF Universe people cannot identify with this typoe of sparring.   For the life of me though I can't see that it has less public appeal than Curling, except that perhaps curling is much easier for the public to understand.  It is similar with MMA. Those without a grappling background migh see a lot of purposeless rolling around while the knowledgeable spectator will see the knolwedge and athleticism employed while various finishing holds are attempted and countered.



Curling had the attractive Scandinavian competitors.  Forgive me the company I keep, but I've heard that remark more than once, and I even read a short news article on the web about it where a network exec said they got a lot of live positive feedback from viewers so they just kept on airing curling more and more.  They had never planned initially to give it that much coverage.



> The key to more TV Time for almost any athletic event is simple. Get Sponsorship dollars by convincing them that their association with this activity will sell product / services and then make it work.  TV stations / netowrks make $ from the advertising, not the competition. For years MMA had trouble getting sponsors due to negative aspects, and then seemingly "Manly" products like Harley Davidson and Budweiser took a chance.



The UFC took off in the US when they aired the first The Ultimate Fighter show to unexpectedly high ratings.  Not sure if TKD can ride the same wave - it would take a lot of rebranding/marketing to give TKD the same younger male appeal.


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> They all ranked themselves above anything that they received abroad.  Any of the founders who had trained outside of Korea broke off from their parent organizations either ranked themselves or were ranked by those around them to higher grades than they would have achieved within the original styles in which they trained.  They had to; they were creating new organizations.
> 
> Haeng Ung Lee did not break off until 1969 and was involved with taekwondo for like a decade and a half.  No idea when he was pronounced by ninth dan, nor am I sure when Ki Whang Kim was pronounced as such (he was ranked 3rd dan in Shudokan karate by Toyoma Sensei). What did he do that was so different from what any of the others did?



Isnt that what you do when you create your own style?
So the master of Ji Do Kwon was suppose to stay a 4th dan in Shotokan?
Something I always wondered.  Because if I started my own school today with a 4th dan in TKDTSD and a 2nd dan in Goju Ryu. I would consider myself a 6th dan, right? Make sense to me. LOL!

So maybe it depended on who you were trained by.  Ki Whang had trained under Toyama had to carry some kinda weight with the Koreans.  From what I can recall the Korean Taekwondo Association use to be the Korean Tangsoodo Association and Ki Whang Kim had got promoted by their committee first back in the 60's and later by the Korean TKD Association to 9th dan in '71.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> Isnt that what you do when you create your own style?


Style or organization. 



Kinghercules said:


> So the master of Ji Do Kwon *(Jidokwan)* was suppose to stay a 4th dan in Shotokan?
> Something I always wondered.


What he would have remained in Shotokan would have been dependent upon his continued trianing. What he became under the auspices of taekwondo was between himself and his peers.



Kinghercules said:


> Because if I started my own school today with a 4th dan in TKDTSD and a 2nd dan in Goju Ryu. I would consider myself a 6th dan, right? Make sense to me. LOL!


Dan grades are not cumulative. It would depend on, *A)* if you started your school and broke away from whatever organization had ranked you, and *B)* on what you were teaching; if you were teaching TKDTSD, then you would be fourth dan. If you were teaching Goju Ryu, you would be second.



Kinghercules said:


> So maybe it depended on who you were trained by. Ki Whang had trained under Toyama had to carry some kinda weight with the Koreans. From what I can recall the Korean Taekwondo Association use to be the Korean Tangsoodo Association and Ki Whang Kim had got promoted by their committee first back in the 60's and later by the Korean TKD Association to 9th dan in '71.


Really it depended on awarding rank appropriate to the role that the individual was going to have within the then new organization.

Inicdentally, I did not question GM Ki Whang Kim rank or how he received it.  In the context of this conversation, GM Kim's qualifications are irrelevant. 

What I want you to explain is why you feel that what GM Haeng Ung Lee did was in some way fraudulent, which is the accusation that you made of him earlier in the thread.


----------



## Kinghercules

miguksaram said:


> Really?  When I think TKD my mind usually reflects to board breaking and flying side kicks.  So if I was to go into an ATA school and that is what I would be lead to believe that is what is being taught.  My point?  Your preconceived notion of what something is or is not, has little bearing on what it actually is.  So if something does not meet my preconceived notion of what it is, should I tell them to change their name or should I instead broaden my horizon on what something is or is not.  Plus, if you signed a contract without first finding out what you would be getting, then frankly you are an idiot (note: using a general term of 'you' not specifically targeting anyone).
> 
> 
> 
> TKD has not changed its focus in what it does, it has simply evolved in the way it does it.  I am curious as how you know the mindset of GM Ki Whang Kim, GM Tiger Kim or GM Henry Cho?
> 
> 
> Do not confuse style with system.  As it has already been pointed out there are several different form of TKD floating out there.  Just as there are a multitude of different types of karate out there.  I learn and teach Shorei-ryu Karate.  Should I tell a Goju stylist that he cannot call his art karate because his forms and philosophy are different than mine?  Of course not.  ITF-TKD and KKW-TKD may be different styles but they are still based off the system of TKD.
> 
> Perhaps GM Ki Whang Kim should have developed his own style, but I would still gather to say that whatever he called it, he would have still tied to the system of TKD.
> 
> As far as GM Ki Whang Kim



Because I grew up under GM Ki Whang Kim.

Your 3 videos: the 1st on is of a tournament in the 80's and I said things began to change in the 80's, sooooo.....what was the point of that one?
2nd video was of ppl sparring (playin around/demonstratin) in class not in a tournament. 
3rd video...was of Hwang Kee....MDK......not TKD........hmmmmm......

Mike Warren went to the 1st TKD World Championships in Korea back in '73 and he told me that they use to kick and punch.  In fact there is a pic of him on the Hall of Fame TKD website punching his Korean opponent dead in the chest.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> While it is true that the KKW is the 'main' association with millions of members worldwide, I don't share your opinion about there being only one taekwondo.  How can there be?  What I learned as a Jhoon Rhee Texkwondo guy is rather different from the ATA curriculum my niece and nephew practic, even though both styles were the brain children of Chung Do Kwan men.  On the other hand both systems are probably closer to each other than what is offered at my friend's dojang (lots of kicking focused drills and sparring).



And yet in the two examples you give, GM Jhoon Rhee and ATA, both liked to associate with kukki taekwondoin more than any other. In fact, ATA GM LEE Haeng Ung, towards the end of his life, was actively negotiating with the Kukkiwon to bring the ATA into the Kukkiwon fold. I know that some ATA instructors were already giving their students Kukkiwon certification in addition to ATA certification.

Instead of saying there is "one taekwondo", what I would say is that it is all taekwondo. Similarly, we have fifty states, with fifty different ways of doing things, but we are all Americans. Just because I do not speak with a southern accent doesn't make me any less of an American than if I did speak with one. 




dancingalone said:


> There are dozens and dozens of so-called TKD styles.  Most likely are close to each other in training methodology, but I wouldn't assume that is true of all of them.  It's not quite the same level of variation as you see in karate, but I think those days are coming, particularly in the United States where the KKW does not hold the monopoly/market leadership it does in other parts of the world.



Actually I see the reverse happening, that more and more people are seeking out Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon way of doing things. There are a lot of reasons for this, the internet, youtube, old anti Kukkiwon, anti korean, anti sport types fading off while younger more progressive, less self defense oriented coming into their own, martial arts supply companies selling loads of kukkiwon oriented stuff, including cool flags, plates, stickers, uniforms, etc., kukkiwon coming to US to give seminars and dan tests, people taking taekwondo tours to korea, and any number of other personal reasons. In my own state, we had every single style or variation of taekwondo imaginable, and now today, the overwhelming majority are kukkiwon certified, are doing the kukkiwon poomsae and sparring under the wtf rules.


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Style or organization.
> 
> 
> What he would have remained in Shotokan would have been dependent upon his continued trianing. What he became under the auspices of taekwondo was between himself and his peers.
> 
> 
> Dan grades are not cumulative. It would depend on, *A)* if you started your school and broke away from whatever organization had ranked you, and *B)* on what you were teaching; if you were teaching TKDTSD, then you would be fourth dan. If you were teaching Goju Ryu, you would be second.
> 
> 
> Really it depended on awarding rank appropriate to the role that the individual was going to have within the then new organization.
> 
> Inicdentally, I did not question GM Ki Whang Kim rank or how he received it.  In the context of this conversation, GM Kim's qualifications are irrelevant.
> 
> What I want you to explain is why you feel that what GM Haeng Ung Lee did was in some way fraudulent, which is the accusation that you made of him earlier in the thread.



Oh ok...well I just think a 1st dan or a 2nd dan doesnt have enuff experience and knowledge to branch off and thats what he did and thats what Choi did.
And please dont tell me that their degrees were different than ours today because he was promoted to 1st dan in one year.  And if you gonna brake away after gettin your 1st dan Im assumin that he mustve been the badest fighter in Korea.  There was nothin else no one could teach him so maybe thats why he created his own tree.
So, thats what I think.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I don't see actual Olympic TKD as being much of a market influence in of itself as a popularity driver.  We already know Olympic TKD has next to no appeal to the US consumer.  Where it might be a factor is where technical influences created as a result of the competition might make their way downstream to 'normal' TKD students.




I don't see overly focusing on self defense being a market driver either. As for next to no appeal, I wouldn't say that. If that were true then, those who advertise that they are or were Olympic competitors or coaches wouldn't be doing as well as they do financially.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I don't know that it's necessarily a shame.  I remember TKD getting a bit of air time when it was first added to the Games.  I believe TV network executives are more than happy to televise whatever receives good ratings.  It would seem that we Americans would rather watch gymnastics, track and field, tennis, boxing, swimming, etc. when it comes to Olympic sports, even given the familiarity TKD has as a kid's activity in suburban America.  So be it - the market has spoken.
> 
> If there is an interest in popularizing Olympic TKD to the masses, some changes need to be made.  It's clearly missing something now.



And yet, kukki taekwondo dojang are flooded with students, so much so that some instructors cannot keep up with the demand. the market indeed has spoken, not favorably towards self defense oreinted schools, in my opinion.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> And yet in the two examples you give, GM Jhoon Rhee and ATA, both liked to associate with kukki taekwondoin more than any other. In fact, ATA GM LEE Haeng Ung, towards the end of his life, was actively negotiating with the Kukkiwon to bring the ATA into the Kukkiwon fold. I know that some ATA instructors were already giving their students Kukkiwon certification in addition to ATA certification.



I recall you telling me this before.  This effort seems over or at least dormant though.  The local ATA instructors who are highly ranked in their org knew nothing of GM HU Lee's thoughts in this direction.  

The ATA is a healthy group with their own successful way of sparring and their own tournament circuit.  Their level of contact is not in harmony with the full contact given in Olympic rules competition so there is little incentive to work towards merging, other than out of a intangible sense of unity.

As for Jhoon Rhee, what can I say?  The curriculum I studied is nothing like the KKW requirements that my friends follow.  I think I've been fairly clear that for me the curriculum is far more important than any feeling of connection or closeness.  If we study different things, if we practice different things, well...



puunui said:


> Instead of saying there is "one taekwondo", what I would say is that it is all taekwondo. Similarly, we have fifty states, with fifty different ways of doing things, but we are all Americans. Just because I do not speak with a southern accent doesn't make me any less of an American than if I did speak with one.



I like that, but does anything ever stop being taekwondo?  If not, then it is truly a universal term and those other adjectives or nouns must be brought in to bring clarity into conversations.  And in so doing, we tacitly recognize that there are different expressions of TKD that have the potential to diverge further if they have not already. 




puunui said:


> Actually I see the reverse happening, that more and more people are seeking out Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon way of doing things. There are a lot of reasons for this, the internet, youtube, old anti Kukkiwon, anti korean, anti sport types fading off while younger more progressive, less self defense oriented coming into their own, martial arts supply companies selling loads of kukkiwon oriented stuff, including cool flags, plates, stickers, uniforms, etc., kukkiwon coming to US to give seminars and dan tests, people taking taekwondo tours to korea, and any number of other personal reasons. In my own state, we had every single style or variation of taekwondo imaginable, and now today, the overwhelming majority are kukkiwon certified, are doing the kukkiwon poomsae and sparring under the wtf rules.



I appreciate that is your perspective.  In my market, other organizations have larger numbers of affiliated dojang.  Even independent schools outnumber those KKW.  Heck, I recently bought a dojang from my KKW-certified friend.  My point?  Taekwondo students can find happiness and success in a multitude of places.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> I don't see overly focusing on self defense being a market driver either. As for next to no appeal, I wouldn't say that. If that were true then, those who advertise that they are or were Olympic competitors or coaches wouldn't be doing as well as they do financially.



Who said anything about self-defense in this thread?  I didn't, at least on a direct basis.



> And yet, kukki taekwondo dojang are flooded with students, so much so that some instructors cannot keep up with the demand. the market indeed has spoken, not favorably towards self defense oreinted schools, in my opinion.



???  I also don't know what this is in response to.  By the way, I tend to think popular schools aren't popular because of the certifications their owners hold, but rather because their owners successfully offer what people want.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Those TKD styles that seek to graft on elements from other martial arts are trying to improve their effectiveness.  It's hard to say how successful they will be as indeed martial artists in general just don't have the opportunities to test themselves compared to generations past.




From what I see and from my own experience, grafting on elements from other martial arts occurs when a practitioner is unable or unwilling to learn the entire content of their own original system. But that is like taking pieces from one jigsaw puzzle and force fitting those pieces into another puzzle. Sure you get less empty spaces like that, but the original puzzle ends up getting distorted.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> From what I see and from my own experience, grafting on elements from other martial arts occurs when a practitioner is unable or unwilling to learn the entire content of their own original system. But that is like taking pieces from one jigsaw puzzle and force fitting those pieces into another puzzle. Sure you get less empty spaces like that, but the original puzzle ends up getting distorted.


Happens a lot regardless of the rationale for it.  I teach kobudo at times at a local TKD school.  Why?  Well for starters TKD doesn't have a native weapons study within it.

Lots of people blend in hapkido.  More recently, you've seen Krav Maga and kickboxing folded in.  Considering TKD's eclectic roots, I don't see a reason to look down on people trying to improve themselves.  And even aside from that, surely we can accept that some blendings might be more successful than others?  Take my Jhoon Rhee TKD for example.  Someone, perhaps one of Mr. Rhee's students, introduced a good deal of boxing influence into the style at one point.  It's a good fit.  It's not hard to imagine someone with this background learning clinchwork and elbows from another source to become even more effective.

Now granted we can say all this is found in TKD already.  And so it is if one has the right teacher...


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I like that, but does anything ever stop being taekwondo?  If not, then it is truly a universal term and those other adjectives or nouns must be brought in to bring clarity into conversations.  And in so doing, we tacitly recognize that there are different expressions of TKD that have the potential to diverge further if they have not already.



I don't know. Is there a point where one stops being an American? Do you think labels such as Italian American or Vietnamese American are appropriate, or is it better to simply say we are all Americans, in spite of what we look like and what we do and think? 




dancingalone said:


> I appreciate that is your perspective.  In my market, other organizations have larger numbers of affiliated dojang.



Not if I have anything to do with it. 




dancingalone said:


> Even independent schools outnumber those KKW.  Heck, I recently bought a dojang from my KKW-certified friend.  My point?  Taekwondo students can find happiness and success in a multitude of places.



This might be a local cultural thing, growing up thinking and believing in the idea of a lone star. And that's ok too.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Happens a lot regardless of the rationale for it.  I teach kobudo at times at a local TKD school.  Why?  Well for starters TKD doesn't have a native weapons study within it.



Jidokwan GM YOON Kwe Byung wrote and published a book on the wooden staff in Korea. There is also I believe a dagger form from one of the kwan.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Lots of people blend in hapkido.  More recently, you've seen Krav Maga and kickboxing folded in.  Considering TKD's eclectic roots, I don't see a reason to look down on people trying to improve themselves.




Not looking down on anyone, just trying to explain why people graft stuff on. Or at least why I chose to graft stuff on, in my own martial arts journey. However, there came a point where I needed to let go of that stuff in order to fully appreciate the arts that I chose to focus on, arts which I keep separate as much as possible. My separation goes to the extreme where I even have separate friends for Taekwondo and Hapkido. When I am with taekwondo people, I only speak about taekwondo. Same with hapkidoin.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> Oh ok...well I just think a 1st dan or a 2nd dan doesnt have enuff experience and knowledge to branch off and thats what he did and thats what Choi did.
> And please dont tell me that their degrees were different than ours today because he was promoted to 1st dan in one year.


Which is apparently the norm in Korea today. Given that he taught taekwondo from the mid fifties to 1959 and did not break off until a decade later, your initial comment... 



Kinghercules said:


> Ok besides the fact that its founder is a 123 instant BB...its just full of dirt



...really does not hold up. I would suspect that a fifteen year instructor in an art that at the time was less than a quarter century old would have been just as qualified to break off as anyone else.



Kinghercules said:


> And if you gonna brake away after gettin your 1st dan Im assumin that he mustve been the badest fighter in Korea. There was nothin else no one could teach him so maybe thats why he created his own tree.
> So, thats what I think.


Okay. By the time H.U. Lee broke off, he had been involved in taekwondo for over a decade, possibly more than fifteen years. He had experience teaching both military and civilian students. 

Being the baddest fighter in Korea, honestly, is not a qualification for breaking off and starting your own organization. Ability to codify a curriculum and to teach that curriculum to others, and to organize them into a coherent association, federation, or whatever, is what it takes. Choi and Lee both had the ability to found and run larger organizations. They also had the interest in doing so.

Really, none of what we are bantering back and forth about has any bearing on the major issues that most people have with the ATA.  Most of the problems that people identify are centered more on the business model than anything else.


----------



## miguksaram

Kinghercules said:


> Because I grew up under GM Ki Whang Kim.


Are you his son, right hand man or most senior student?  Growing up under someone doesn't always equate knowing them.  Plus what about the other two?  How do you justify knowing what their line of thoughts were?



> Your 3 videos: the 1st on is of a tournament in the 80's and I said things began to change in the 80's, sooooo.....what was the point of that one?


Actually you said Early 70's and early 80's.  The first footage I believe is '84 or '85.  So when in the early 80's did this magically change to kicking?



> 2nd video was of ppl sparring (playin around/demonstratin) in class not in a tournament.


They were sparring how they would at a tournament.  Do you think they spar one way in practice and another way at a tournament?  Doesn't make much sense does it?



> 3rd video...was of Hwang Kee....MDK......not TKD........hmmmmm......


It is HC Hwang...not Hwang Ki.  Two different people.  Keep in mind that MDK split one side following the KKW and the other following Hwang Ki.

But hey...here is one from around early 70's:







> Mike Warren went to the 1st TKD World Championships in Korea back in '73 and he told me that they use to kick and punch.  In fact there is a pic of him on the Hall of Fame TKD website punching his Korean opponent dead in the chest.


You will have to refer me to that picture.  All the ones I see of him punching are to the chest.  Which is no different than what they do today.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Kinghercules said:


> Exactly!
> ATA is *frontin* and they need to stop.



*frontin
*Urban slang. To put up a facade or make appearances, typically to impress or in some way deceive to maintain image.




Kinghercules said:


> Martial art=military art.
> It wasnt always a sport.


Wikipedia.
Taekwondo (&#53468;&#44428;&#46020;; &#36294;&#25331;&#36947;; Korean pronunciation: [t&#688;&#603;kw&#652;ndo])[a] is a Korean martial art and the national sport of South Korea. In Korean, tae (&#53468;, &#36294 means "to strike or break with foot"; kwon (&#44428;, &#25331 means "to strike or break with fist"; and do (&#46020;, &#36947 means "way", "method", or "path". Thus, taekwondo may be loosely translated as "the way of the hand and the foot."

It combines combat techniques, self-defense, sport, exercise, and in some cases meditation and philosophy. In 1989, Taekwondo was the world's most popular martial art in terms of number of practitioners.[1] Gyeorugi (pronounced [&#609;j&#652;&#638;u&#609;i]), a type of sparring, has been an Olympic event since 2000.

There are two main branches of taekwondo development, which are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

    "Traditional taekwondo" typically refers to the martial art as it was established in the 1950s and 1960s in the South Korean military,[2] and in various civilian organisations, including schools and universities. In particular, the names and symbolism of the traditional patterns often refer to elements of Korean history, culture and religious philosophy. Today, the Kukkiwon, or World Taekwondo Headquarters is the traditional center for Taekwondo in Korea.
    "Sport taekwondo" has developed in the decades since the 1950s and may have a somewhat different focus, especially in terms of its emphasis on speed and competition (as in Olympic sparring). Sport taekwondo is in turn subdivided into two main styles; One derives from Kukkiwon, the source of the sparring system sihap gyeorugi which is now an event at the summer Olympic Games and which is governed by the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). The other comes from the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF).[3]

Although there are doctrinal and technical differences between the two main styles and among the various organizations, the art in general emphasizes kicks thrown from a mobile stance, employing the leg's greater reach and power (compared to the arm). Taekwondo training generally includes a system of blocks, kicks, punches, and open-handed strikes and may also include various take-downs or sweeps, throws, and joint locks. Some taekwondo instructors also incorporate the use of pressure points, known as jiapsul, as well as grabbing self-defense techniques borrowed from other martial arts, such as hapkido and judo.



Kinghercules said:


> Oh ok...well I just think a 1st dan or a 2nd dan doesnt have *enough* experience and knowledge to branch off and thats what he did and thats what Choi did.
> And please *don't* tell me that their degrees were different than ours today because he was promoted to 1st dan in one year.  And if you *are going to break away* after _*getting*_ your 1st dan *I'm assuming* that he *must've* been the badest fighter in Korea.  There was *nothing* else *anyone* could teach him so maybe *that's* why he created his own tree.
> So, *that's* what I think.


There. Fixed that for you. For further improvement, please see this link.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> Jidokwan GM YOON Kwe Byung wrote and published a book on the wooden staff in Korea. There is also I believe a dagger form from one of the kwan.



One of those lost bits unfortunately.  By and large weapons just isn't practiced by taekwondoin today and those that do mostly have introduced it from another source like Okinawan or Filipino arts.



> Not looking down on anyone, just trying to explain why people graft stuff on. Or at least why I chose to graft stuff on, in my own martial arts journey. However, there came a point where I needed to let go of that stuff in order to fully appreciate the arts that I chose to focus on, arts which I keep separate as much as possible. My separation goes to the extreme where I even have separate friends for Taekwondo and Hapkido. When I am with taekwondo people, I only speak about taekwondo. Same with hapkidoin.



I'm afraid I'm not that talented.  I perform the Chang Hon hyung with a Goju flavor.  Thus far however, I've been able to teach my TKD students and they have escaped the 'taint', likely because I don't teach them everything I personally practice.   



> I don't know. Is there a point where one stops being an American? Do you think labels such as Italian American or Vietnamese American are appropriate, or is it better to simply say we are all Americans, in spite of what we look like and what we do and think?



Both have their usages.  If I say I want to eat out and I don't have a preference, it is appropriate for me to say I want to eat at a restaurant for dinner.  On the other hand if I definitely want gumbo, I should specify that I want to go to a Cajun restaurant.  Or Vietnamese if I want a bowl of _pho_.  It is the same with martial arts. 



> This might be a local cultural thing, growing up thinking and believing in the idea of a lone star.



Independence is arguably an American trait also, not just a Texan one.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I'm afraid I'm not that talented.  I perform the Chang Hon hyung with a Goju flavor.  Thus far however, I've been able to teach my TKD students have escaped the 'taint', likely because I don't teach them everything I personally practice.



How about when you practice aikido? Are you kicking and punching like an Chang Hon or Goju stylist while wearing your hakama? 





dancingalone said:


> Independence is arguably an American trait also, not just a Texan one.



I would say that unification is also an american trait, first and foremost, given the first word in the name of our country, UNITED States of America.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> How about when you practice aikido? Are you kicking and punching like an Chang Hon or Goju stylist while wearing your hakama?



Softness is something I strive for always.  My expression of aiki is noticeably harder than my wife's, again due to my training background.



puunui said:


> I would say that unification is also an american trait, first and foremost, given the first word in the name of our country, UNITED States of America.



Not so much if we look at the complete context of American history through the troubled governance under the Articles of Confederation and then the state's rights debate that culminated in the Civil War.  Unity is something our nation has constantly struggled with and even today the recession has laid bare the stark contrast of interests between social and economic classes.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Not so much if we look at the complete context of American history through the troubled governance under the Articles of Confederation and then the state's rights debate that culminated in the Civil War.  Unity is something our nation has constantly struggled with and even today the recession has laid bare the stark contrast of interests between social and economic classes.



Sure we fight and argue amongst ourselves, but push comes to shove, we stick together. Our greatest achievements as Americans were not times where we stood for individuality, but rather when we came together as a nation. We work together, acknowledging and in spite of our differences. The taekwondo pioneers are aware of this concept, and wished to unify taekwondo, like the USA unified, perhaps in the hopes that in doing so, it would help to unify their own country torn in two. This concept of unification was very important to the pioneers' generation, less so with today's generation in South Korea. The USA was their example, as weird as that sounds, but not so, if you acknowledge the many other concepts and philosophies borrowed from the west, specifically the US, which has military bases all over the country. 

That is why it is so ironic that practitioners from the country which served as their example for unification are often the ones who scream the loudest regarding individuality.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> perhaps in the hopes that in doing so, it would help to unify their own country torn in two. This concept of unification was very important to the pioneers' generation, less so with today's generation in South Korea. The USA was their example, as weird as that sounds, but not so, if you acknowledge the many other concepts and philosophies borrowed from the west, specifically the US, which has military bases all over the country.



I can be obtuse at times, so I hope you can explain this to me.  Why would unifying all taekwondo practitioners under one umbrella create unity for the Koreans?  The division between North and South Korea is a political problem (probably a military one really).  If all the people in the United States suddenly converted over how does that change anything about a hereditary dictatorship forcing its people to live in shackled isolation and poverty?


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I can be obtuse at times, so I hope you can explain this to me.  Why would unifying all taekwondo practitioners under one umbrella create unity for the Koreans?  The division between North and South Korea is a political problem (probably a military one really).  If all the people in the United States suddenly converted over how does that change anything about a hereditary dictatorship forcing its people to live in shackled isolation and poverty?



I don't know. Did you ever see the movie Silence of the Lambs? It came out through sessions with Dr. Lecter that when Clarice Starling was growing up, she was sent to live with her uncle who had a sheep and horse ranch in Montana. One morning she woke up to some awful screaming, so she went down to the barn and saw them slaughtering the spring lambs, so she grabbed one and ran off with it, but they caught up with her a few miles down the road and sent her to live in the lutheran orphanage. But she still heard the terrible screaming of the lambs. But if she could save poor Katherine from Buffalo Bill, then perhaps the terrible screaming would go away. Something like that. And it wasn't all of the people in the US, but rather if they could unify taekwondo in Korea, given all of the political problems associated with that, then perhaps there was hope in unifying north and south korea too, with its own political problems. Just trying to give an explanation as to why the concept of unification was so important to the pioneers. You are free to reject my explanation if you wish.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> If I say I want to eat out and I don't have a preference, it is appropriate for me to say I want to eat at a restaurant for dinner.  On the other hand if I definitely want gumbo, I should specify that I want to go to a Cajun restaurant.  Or Vietnamese if I want a bowl of _pho_.  It is the same with martial arts.




How about if you went to a cajun restaurant and they offered you pho? Or if you went to a Vietnamese restaurant and saw gumbo on the menu? What would be your thoughts on that?


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> I don't know. Did you ever see the movie Silence of the Lambs? It came out through sessions with Dr. Lecter that when Clarice Starling was growing up, she was sent to live with her uncle who had a sheep and horse ranch in Montana. One morning she woke up to some awful screaming, so she went down to the barn and saw them slaughtering the spring lambs, so she grabbed one and ran off with it, but they caught up with her a few miles down the road and sent her to live in the lutheran orphanage. But she still heard the terrible screaming of the lambs. But if she could save poor Katherine from Buffalo Bill, then perhaps the terrible screaming would go away. Something like that. And it wasn't all of the people in the US, but rather if they could unify taekwondo in Korea, given all of the political problems associated with that, then perhaps there was hope in unifying north and south korea too, with its own political problems. Just trying to give an explanation as to why the concept of unification was so important to the pioneers. You are free to reject my explanation if you wish.



I can understand the concept of a Korean 'spring zeitgeist'.  Thank you for answering.


----------



## dancingalone

puunui said:


> How about if you went to a cajun restaurant and they offered you pho? Or if you went to a Vietnamese restaurant and saw gumbo on the menu? What would be your thoughts on that?



I've never seen that pairing before despite the existance of a sizable Vietnamese community living in Louisiana and I would probably be suspicious of the offering.  On the other hand, it would not be surprising to go to a nicer Vietnamese restaurant (not the typical, commonly seen cafes) and see French influenced dishes on the menu due to the long period of French colonization in Vietnam.  In that case I would happily sample the food.


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Which is apparently the norm in Korea today. Given that he taught taekwondo from the mid fifties to 1959 and did not break off until a decade later, your initial comment...
> 
> 
> 
> ...really does not hold up. I would suspect that a fifteen year instructor in an art that at the time was less than a quarter century old would have been just as qualified to break off as anyone else.
> 
> 
> Okay. By the time H.U. Lee broke off, he had been involved in taekwondo for over a decade, possibly more than fifteen years. He had experience teaching both military and civilian students.
> 
> Being the baddest fighter in Korea, honestly, is not a qualification for breaking off and starting your own organization. Ability to codify a curriculum and to teach that curriculum to others, and to organize them into a coherent association, federation, or whatever, is what it takes. Choi and Lee both had the ability to found and run larger organizations. They also had the interest in doing so.
> 
> Really, none of what we are bantering back and forth about has any bearing on the major issues that most people have with the ATA.  Most of the problems that people identify are centered more on the business model than anything else.



You're right.
And Ive been thinkin.....I guess TKD can be a general title.  Just like karate.  Cause you have Shotokan Karate, Kyokushinkai Karate, Goju Ryu Karate & etc......
So I can see him startin up his own style or group and callin it TKD.

It still doesnt negate the *FACT* that they are some....


----------



## SPX

Tez3 said:


> Opinion yes, but fact? You will have to post figures for that to be proven, on MT you will find proof is wanted.



Well, let me see if I can gather them. . .



Tez3 said:


> What on earth do you think I am ..'if it doesn't describe you'... you can't keep people out of a conversation on here, you can't choose who reads, who doesn't, who has an opinion and who doesn't. I was around in the 80s, 'doing' martial arts, Wado Ryu actually and there was no mystique just hard work.



I'm not trying to keep anyone out of anything, although you clearly have some problem with me, as you take exception to everything I say and argue at every opportunity.

Maybe I should say that anyone under 30 who has been interested in martial arts will understand.  I grew up in the 80s.  I was a kid.  And like many kids, I loved Van Damme movies, Sho Kosugi ninja movies, kung fu movies. . .  My friends and I ran around in the woods and "trained" by taking the stuff we saw on TV and practicing the techniques.  Eventually this lead me into TKD.  It was a fun time.

It was also a time where the martial arts were surrounded by a mystique, not just for kids, but also for many adults.  It was a boom period for karate, kung fu, TKD etc and it wasn't until MMA came along and shattered along of preconceptions about TMAs that it really dissolved.

Now would you please quit fighting with me about stuff?  If you don't want to just talk to me about discuss martial arts, then feel free to ignore me.  But if we simply HAVE to argue, then fine.  I will.



Tez3 said:


> The continent of Europe covers a large proportion of this planet, there are over *50 countries* in Europe so only a small proportion then, not worth mentioning in a 'global' context. 'Cable' is a big thing I believe in America, it's not however that widely used elsewhere so in 50 countries at least it would be surprising if anything in cable rated highly. Besides most people watch it on their computers about which I'm saying nothng as I believe it's not exactly legal lol!



Well like any industry, it's largely judged by it's biggest players.


----------



## SPX

miguksaram said:


> Really?  When I think TKD my mind usually reflects to board breaking and flying side kicks.  So if I was to go into an ATA school and that is what I would be lead to believe that is what is being taught.



I think that most regular people who know nothing about martial arts aside from what they see on TV think of TKD as a fighting system.  It's something that you study to learn to fight, and then you can beat guys up like they do in the movies.


----------



## Kinghercules

The Last Legionary said:


> *frontin
> *Urban slang. To put up a facade or make appearances, typically to impress or in some way deceive to maintain image.
> 
> 
> 
> Wikipedia.
> Taekwondo (&#53468;&#44428;&#46020;; &#36294;&#25331;&#36947;; Korean pronunciation: [t&#688;&#603;kw&#652;ndo])[a] is a Korean martial art and the national sport of South Korea. In Korean, tae (&#53468;, &#36294 means "to strike or break with foot"; kwon (&#44428;, &#25331 means "to strike or break with fist"; and do (&#46020;, &#36947 means "way", "method", or "path". Thus, taekwondo may be loosely translated as "the way of the hand and the foot."
> 
> It combines combat techniques, self-defense, sport, exercise, and in some cases meditation and philosophy. In 1989, Taekwondo was the world's most popular martial art in terms of number of practitioners.[1] Gyeorugi (pronounced [&#609;j&#652;&#638;u&#609;i]), a type of sparring, has been an Olympic event since 2000.
> 
> There are two main branches of taekwondo development, which are not necessarily mutually exclusive:
> 
> "Traditional taekwondo" typically refers to the martial art as it was established in the 1950s and 1960s in the South Korean military,[2] and in various civilian organisations, including schools and universities. In particular, the names and symbolism of the traditional patterns often refer to elements of Korean history, culture and religious philosophy. Today, the Kukkiwon, or World Taekwondo Headquarters is the traditional center for Taekwondo in Korea.
> "Sport taekwondo" has developed in the decades since the 1950s and may have a somewhat different focus, especially in terms of its emphasis on speed and competition (as in Olympic sparring). Sport taekwondo is in turn subdivided into two main styles; One derives from Kukkiwon, the source of the sparring system sihap gyeorugi which is now an event at the summer Olympic Games and which is governed by the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). The other comes from the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF).[3]
> 
> Although there are doctrinal and technical differences between the two main styles and among the various organizations, the art in general emphasizes kicks thrown from a mobile stance, employing the leg's greater reach and power (compared to the arm). Taekwondo training generally includes a system of blocks, kicks, punches, and open-handed strikes and may also include various take-downs or sweeps, throws, and joint locks. Some taekwondo instructors also incorporate the use of pressure points, known as jiapsul, as well as grabbing self-defense techniques borrowed from other martial arts, such as hapkido and judo.
> 
> 
> There. Fixed that for you. For further improvement, please see this link.



LOL!!!
:lol:


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs>  I wouldn't dream to speak of what currently happens in Britain.
> 
> I know the general awareness of Olympic TKD within the US is next to nil.  We get no coverage of it at all on television, cable or otherwise.  No one follows the sport unless they are already involved in it somehow unlike popular spectator sports such as basketball, baseball, etc.  Most of the TKD parents I have encountered would be hard pressed to think of TKD as anything other than something their kids do as a hobby - 'unfortunate' as that might be it is the reality here.



True AND unfortunate.

Even during the Olympics you have to go out of your way to find both TKD and Judo.  I don't think they're ever actually aired on network TV, though I believe MSN has a live NBC feed that you can watch it on.  But there's no commentary and no real production value.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> If there is an interest in popularizing Olympic TKD to the masses, some changes need to be made.  It's clearly missing something now.



I wonder why it was that TKD was chosen in '88 and not another martial art.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> The UFC took off in the US when they aired the first The Ultimate Fighter show to unexpectedly high ratings.  Not sure if TKD can ride the same wave - it would take a lot of rebranding/marketing to give TKD the same younger male appeal.



I would love to see a TKD reality show like TUF or The Contender.  I would watch it for sure.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Even during the Olympics you have to go out of your way to find both TKD and Judo.  I don't think they're ever actually aired on network TV, though I believe MSN has a live NBC feed that you can watch it on.  But there's no commentary and no real production value.




Taekwondo at the 1988 Olympics was shown on NBC. I taped it all and still have the vhs tapes from that. The first time taekwondo was shown on american tv was I believe in 1981 on ABC's Wide World of Sports. They showed a couple of matches from the World Games which was in Santa Clara, California. Taped that too.


----------



## dancingalone

SPX said:


> I wonder why it was that TKD was chosen in '88 and not another martial art.



Because it was in Seoul and I believe the host country gets to pick a demonstration sport, and so TKD was the obvious selection.



> I would love to see a TKD reality show like TUF or The Contender. I would watch it for sure.



I suspect we'd have a whole bunch of complaining on here about how the people on the show don't do real TKD or don't abide by the tenets of TKD.  LOL.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Actually I see the reverse happening, that more and more people are seeking out Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon way of doing things. There are a lot of reasons for this, the internet, youtube, old anti Kukkiwon, anti korean, anti sport types fading off while younger more progressive, less self defense oriented coming into their own, martial arts supply companies selling loads of kukkiwon oriented stuff, including cool flags, plates, stickers, uniforms, etc., kukkiwon coming to US to give seminars and dan tests, people taking taekwondo tours to korea, and any number of other personal reasons. In my own state, we had every single style or variation of taekwondo imaginable, and now today, the overwhelming majority are kukkiwon certified, are doing the kukkiwon poomsae and sparring under the wtf rules.



I'm sure it varies from place to place, but in my city most schools are ITF-based (ITF, USTF, or independent teaching the Chang Hon forms).  Then there are the ATA schools.  Then the WTF schools.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I'm sure it varies from place to place, but in my city most schools are ITF-based (ITF, USTF, or independent teaching the Chang Hon forms).  Then there are the ATA schools.  Then the WTF schools.



What area are you from?


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Taekwondo at the 1988 Olympics was shown on NBC. I taped it all and still have the vhs tapes from that. The first time taekwondo was shown on american tv was I believe in 1981 on ABC's Wide World of Sports. They showed a couple of matches from the World Games which was in Santa Clara, California. Taped that too.



'81, ah, the year I was born.  In fact, 30 years ago to the day.  

I tried finding both TKD and Judo on TV in '08.  The best I could do was find NBC's MSN stream, where I think they showed a live feed of every sport.  It wasn't like watching it on TV, though.  You don't get the commentary or the razzle dazzle.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> What area are you from?



Salt Lake City, UT


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> Because it was in Seoul and I believe the host country gets to pick a demonstration sport, and so TKD was the obvious selection.



Oh yeah, that makes sense. 

I wonder if there has ever been much discussion to make Karate an Olympic sport.  It seems that Shotokan-style competition would fit in well.





dancingalone said:


> I suspect we'd have a whole bunch of complaining on here about how the people on the show don't do real TKD or don't abide by the tenets of TKD.  LOL.



LOL.  Maybe.  That would make it all the more entertaining.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Salt Lake City, UT



Ok thanks. Utah wasn't a big supporter of the USTU. I know there are some kukki taekwondo instructors in your state, but not many.


----------



## RobinTKD

SPX said:


> I wonder if there has ever been much discussion to make Karate an Olympic sport.  It seems that Shotokan-style competition would fit in well.




Japan were bidding to put sport karate (the one where you don't need to make contact to score) into the Seoul Olympics, as TKD was chosen, the Olympic committee decided not to have 2 striking arts in there. I personally think that had they put forward full contact style Shotokan or Kyokushinkai, they may have had a better chance.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I wonder if there has ever been much discussion to make Karate an Olympic sport.  It seems that Shotokan-style competition would fit in well.




It was announced by the IOC this past summer that Karate, along with Wushu and some other sports, have been fast tracked for consideration for the 2020 Olympic Games. This announcement has made a lot of taekwondo practitioners nervous, because why would the IOC fast track two sports that are in direct competition with taekwondo, unless they were seriously thinking of removing taekwondo from the summer Olympic program.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Ok thanks. Utah wasn't a big supporter of the USTU. I know there are some kukki taekwondo instructors in your state, but not many.



These are the only two that I'm aware of in the Salt Lake area, though I'm sure that are at least a few schools that I haven't heard about:

http://katkd.com/
http://www.saltlaketaekwondo.com/


----------



## SPX

RobinTKD said:


> Japan were bidding to put sport karate (the one where you don't need to make contact to score) into the Seoul Olympics, as TKD was chosen, the Olympic committee decided not to have 2 striking arts in there. I personally think that had they put forward full contact style Shotokan or Kyokushinkai, they may have had a better chance.





puunui said:


> It was announced by the IOC this past summer that Karate, along with Wushu and some other sports, have been fast tracked for consideration for the 2020 Olympic Games. This announcement has made a lot of taekwondo practitioners nervous, because why would the IOC fast track two sports that are in direct competition with taekwondo, unless they were seriously thinking of removing taekwondo from the summer Olympic program.



Interesting.  

I personally think that Olympic TKD is different enough from both karate and wushu that they are only vaguely competitors, especially wushu.  

Also, 2020 . . . long time to wait, but I guess in Olympic terms, it's not that long.


----------



## RobinTKD

I think it would be good to see all three in there too. Look at track and field, is discus throwing a direct competitor to javelin or shotput? Is the 400m in competition with the 800m? Same with cycling, swimming (is the indoor 'sprints' in competition with the outdoor swims?) they have both indoor AND outdoor volleyball, i see no reason why they shouldn't include Taekwondo, Karate (preferably shotokan) and Wushu.


----------



## SPX

I'm trying to figure out how wushu would be done.  Would it be a forms competition?  Would there be sanshou?


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> From what I see and from my own experience, grafting on elements from other martial arts occurs when a practitioner is unable or unwilling to learn the entire content of their own original system. But that is like taking pieces from one jigsaw puzzle and force fitting those pieces into another puzzle. Sure you get less empty spaces like that, but the original puzzle ends up getting distorted.



You could argue that, as times change, then martial arts should, too.  Now that we know the importance of grappling and having at least a basic understanding of how to wrestle with a person, some might say that it would be foolish to not add this kind material into the curriculum.  It may "distort the original puzzle," but is that a problem is the original puzzle has been shown to be, for lack of a better way to say it, inadequate?


----------



## RobinTKD

SPX said:


> You could argue that, as times change, then martial arts should, too.  Now that we know the importance of grappling and having at least a basic understanding of how to wrestle with a person, some might say that it would be foolish to not add this kind material into the curriculum.  It may "distort the original puzzle," but is that a problem is the original puzzle has been shown to, for lack of a better way to say it, inadequate?



With the grappling aspects, we do have clinches in patterns such as Choong-Moo, and ground fighting in Choong Jang, so it is already there in the syllabus, but i suppose it depends on how the teacher shows these techniques. I can't speak for the KKW poomsae, as i don't know it well enough, but i imagine they have it too.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> One of those lost bits unfortunately.  By and large weapons just isn't practiced by taekwondoin today and those that do mostly have introduced it from another source like Okinawan or Filipino arts.



It seems to me that weapons are all over TKD today.  When I first started looking at taekwondo again about 5 years ago after paying it very little attention for over a decade, I was SHOCKED to find all these schools teaching weapons.  

I was like, what do nunchaku have to do with TKD?  But that doesn't mean that I'm opposed to it.  There was a time when I would've hated it and called it untraditional, but I'm a lot more easy going now with more of a "whatever floats your boat" mentality.


----------



## SPX

RobinTKD said:


> With the grappling aspects, we do have clinches in patterns such as Choong-Moo, and ground fighting in Choong Jang, so it is already there in the syllabus, but i suppose it depends on how the teacher shows these techniques. I can't speak for the KKW poomsae, as i don't know it well enough, but i imagine they have it too.



I think there's a big difference between it being in the patterns, and there actually being a curriculum for doing hip throws, chokes, and pins.  At the last ITF school I attended, we did do some hapkido-style grappling in the ho sin sul classes, which was nice.  There was nothing really in the way of actual ground fighting, though.


----------



## RobinTKD

SPX said:


> I think there's a big difference between it being in the patterns, and there actually being a curriculum for doing hip throws, chokes, and pins.  At the last ITF school I attended, we did do some hapkido-style grappling in the ho sin sul classes, which was nice.  There was nothing really in the way of actual ground fighting, though.



Yes this is unfortunately lacking in most TKD schools, as well as karate schools. But if it's in the patterns/kata, why shouldn't we be learning it, and putting in just as much effort as we do on standing techniques? Just like weapons training, i'm told that some of the movements (none that i know for definite though) in the patterns are there to show you how to defend against, or use a weapon. I'm also told that it was the original intention of General Choi to include weapons training, though i'm not sure how much truth there is in that.


----------



## SPX

Personally, I would at least like to see the judo white belt curriculum added into TKD.  Just with that alone you would get a handful of bread-and-butter throws, four pins, and the armbar and RNC.  If you could just master those skills right there and gain an understanding of the underlying body mechanics of basic wrestling then you would be able to handle 90% of people in a self-defense situation.


----------



## SPX

I'm just gonna leave this here. . .


----------



## SPX

^^^  The XMA uniforms really crack me up.  I don't have anything against XMA and think it's actually kind of cool, but the uniforms. . .

Just watching those last two vids you can tell that the target audience really is kids.

Also, what's up with the little salute at :35 of the third vid?


----------



## dancingalone

SPX said:


> It seems to me that weapons are all over TKD today.  When I first started looking at taekwondo again about 5 years ago after paying it very little attention for over a decade, I was SHOCKED to find all these schools teaching weapons.
> 
> I was like, what do nunchaku have to do with TKD?  But that doesn't mean that I'm opposed to it.  There was a time when I would've hated it and called it untraditional, but I'm a lot more easy going now with more of a "whatever floats your boat" mentality.



IMO there's little of quality weapons work, nunchaku included.  Lots of kids twirling foam 'chuks' and thinking they are running nunchaku however.  What passes for weapons practice these days pains me.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> IMO there's little of quality weapons work, nunchaku included.  Lots of kids twirling foam 'chuks' and thinking they are running nunchaku however.  What passes for weapons practice these days pains me.



Like this?


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> You could argue that, as times change, then martial arts should, too.  Now that we know the importance of grappling and having at least a basic understanding of how to wrestle with a person, some might say that it would be foolish to not add this kind material into the curriculum.  It may "distort the original puzzle," but is that a problem is the original puzzle has been shown to be, for lack of a better way to say it, inadequate?



You can add brazilian jiujitsu if you want. What I would do is keep it as a separate art and practice it separately, as opposed to blending into the taekwondo curriculum. That way, you are working on two puzzles at the same time, as opposed to blending two separate puzzles into one.


----------



## Cyriacus

SPX said:


> Like this?


I have never held a Nunchuck.
I never want to see that Video again


----------



## Earl Weiss

RobinTKD said:


> With the grappling aspects, we do have clinches in patterns such as Choong-Moo, and ground fighting in Choong Jang, so it is already there in the syllabus, but i suppose it depends on how the teacher shows these techniques. I can't speak for the KKW poomsae, as i don't know it well enough, but i imagine they have it too.



While their is aground striking curriculum in gneral Chois encyclopedia standing graplling is nominal and ground grappling is really non existant.


----------



## Earl Weiss

SPX said:


> You could argue that, as times change, then martial arts should, too. Now that we know the importance of grappling and having at least a basic understanding of how to wrestle with a person, some might say that it would be foolish to not add this kind material into the curriculum. It may "distort the original puzzle," but is that a problem is the original puzzle has been shown to be, for lack of a better way to say it, inadequate?



That is like saying firearm training is not adequate as a sole means of Self defense so we should add empty hand self defense as part of firearm training.  It would really be a misnomer.  You can teach TKD as a striking curriculm for self defense and BJJ as the grappling curriculum. That won't make the grappling TKD, nor will it make the striking BJJ, and there is no reason it should.


----------



## SPX

Earl Weiss said:


> That is like saying firearm training is not adequate as a sole means of Self defense so we should add empty hand self defense as part of firearm training.  It would really be a misnomer.  You can teach TKD as a striking curriculm for self defense and BJJ as the grappling curriculum. That won't make the grappling TKD, nor will it make the striking BJJ, and there is no reason it should.



Honestly, I'm thinking in terms of convenience.  Maybe I want to be primarily a striker, but I don't want to be completely lost if I'm in a bar and some guy gets through my punches to initiate a clinch.  If that's the case, just a basic grappling game (some standing throws, a bit of ground work, a basic knowledge of body mechanics, like I said before essentially a white belt's level of judo knowledge) would go a long way to filling that hole that exists.

But it kind of sucks to have to take a whole other couple of days out of my week to go to a completely different place and pay an extra monthly fee to study a full system like judo or BJJ when all I want are some basics.  In fact, I'd say that the hassle of having to do all of the above is probably enough that a lot of people will just not do it.  So why not add a little bit of this material into TKD?  

Or if you don't want to officially add it into TKD, then I think it would be good for instructors to develop a basic grappling program to teach alongside TKD.  Again, it doesn't have to an in-depth system.  The goal doesn't have to be to become a black belt level grappler.  It could actually be kind of like the ATA grappling certification programs but, you know, better.


----------



## Earl Weiss

SPX said:


> Honestly, I'm thinking in terms of convenience. Maybe I want to be primarily a striker, but I don't want to be completely lost if I'm in a bar and some guy gets through my punches to initiate a clinch. If that's the case, just a basic grappling game (some standing throws, a bit of ground work, a basic knowledge of body mechanics, like I said before essentially a white belt's level of judo knowledge) would go a long way to filling that hole that exists.
> 
> . The goal doesn't have to be to become a black belt level grappler. It could actually be kind of like the ATA grappling certification programs but, you know, better.



We are on the same page. Due to my backgrounf I have a strong grappling element in my curriculum anf the organization recently implemented a ground tactics course which I attended. However, neither the organization nor I represent those elements to be TKD.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> You're right.
> And Ive been thinkin.....I guess TKD can be a general title. Just like karate. Cause you have Shotokan Karate, Kyokushinkai Karate, Goju Ryu Karate & etc......
> So I can see him startin up his own style or group and callin it TKD.
> 
> It still doesnt negate the *FACT* that they are some....


....MA business people who have really learned to exploit the suburban family market and make money with taekwondo and other grafted on programs.  From what I understand, if you're a school owner, their organizational support is quite good.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

SPX said:


> Honestly, I'm thinking in terms of convenience. Maybe I want to be primarily a striker, but I don't want to be completely lost if I'm in a bar and some guy gets through my punches to initiate a clinch. If that's the case, just a basic grappling game (some standing throws, a bit of ground work, a basic knowledge of body mechanics, like I said before essentially a white belt's level of judo knowledge) would go a long way to filling that hole that exists.
> 
> But it kind of sucks to have to take a whole other couple of days out of my week to go to a completely different place and pay an extra monthly fee to study a full system like judo or BJJ when all I want are some basics. In fact, I'd say that the hassle of having to do all of the above is probably enough that a lot of people will just not do it. So why not add a little bit of this material into TKD?
> 
> Or if you don't want to officially add it into TKD, then I think it would be good for instructors to develop a basic grappling program to teach alongside TKD. Again, it doesn't have to an in-depth system. The goal doesn't have to be to become a black belt level grappler. It could actually be kind of like the ATA grappling certification programs but, you know, better.


Or you could just take hapkido.


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ....MA business people who have really learned to exploit the suburban family market and make money with taekwondo and other grafted on programs.  From what I understand, if you're a school owner, their organizational support is quite good.



Yeah Ive worked at a few schools that were like that and they are sad.  And I think these schools and owners should be called out for bein fake. And like I said the ATA is in their own little world but whats gonna happen when those ppl step outside of that world?  Most of my conflicts havent happened where I live but always when Im hangin out or when I was in college.  I just think to take an art that was developed for defense and offense and turn it into a what they have (and the Olympic crap too) is sad.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or you could just take hapkido.



I consider myself a Hapkido "Dabbler" . Having said that I have not seen a lot of groundwork in Hapkido. Sure, it shows you how to take the other guy down and control him, but as far as what to do if things have gone horribly wrong and you find yourself rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, ... not so much.


----------



## dancingalone

Earl Weiss said:


> I consider myself a Hapkido "Dabbler" . Having said that I have not seen a lot of groundwork in Hapkido. Sure, it shows you how to take the other guy down and control him, but as far as what to do if things have gone horribly wrong and you find yourself rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, ... not so much.



Agreed.  Aikido as generally taught has the same issues there as hapkido.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> I consider myself a Hapkido "Dabbler" . Having said that I have not seen a lot of groundwork in Hapkido. Sure, it shows you how to take the other guy down and control him, but as far as what to do if things have gone horribly wrong and you find yourself rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, ... not so much.



Hapkido does have ground techniques, someone has you in a mount choking you, and so forth. There are also some judo grappling defense. But like you said, it is not a lot.


----------



## dancingalone

SPX said:


> Honestly, I'm thinking in terms of convenience.  Maybe I want to be primarily a striker, but I don't want to be completely lost if I'm in a bar and some guy gets through my punches to initiate a clinch.  If that's the case, just a basic grappling game (some standing throws, a bit of ground work, a basic knowledge of body mechanics, like I said before essentially a white belt's level of judo knowledge) would go a long way to filling that hole that exists.
> 
> But it kind of sucks to have to take a whole other couple of days out of my week to go to a completely different place and pay an extra monthly fee to study a full system like judo or BJJ when all I want are some basics.  In fact, I'd say that the hassle of having to do all of the above is probably enough that a lot of people will just not do it.  So why not add a little bit of this material into TKD?
> 
> Or if you don't want to officially add it into TKD, then I think it would be good for instructors to develop a basic grappling program to teach alongside TKD.  Again, it doesn't have to an in-depth system.  The goal doesn't have to be to become a black belt level grappler.  It could actually be kind of like the ATA grappling certification programs but, you know, better.



I have a friend who runs a competing dojang.  A while back he solicited my advice on adding exactly this kind of material to his curriculum.  After some research and experimentation, he ended up taking the Combat Hapkido route.  At some point in the future, he plans to integrate some BJJ as well.  I'm supposed to sit on some testing boards at his dojang in 2012 so I guess I'll see first hand how successful the integration has been for his students.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kinghercules said:


> Yeah Ive worked at a few schools that were like that and they are sad. And I think these schools and owners should be called out for bein fake.


Fake in what way?  And what is your firsthand experience with the ATA?  If you've said over the past twelve pages, my apologies, but I was under the impression that you have no firsthand experience whatsoever.  One of the reasons that I avoid saying anything beyond what is generally known is that I don't have firsthand experience with them.



Kinghercules said:


> And like I said the ATA is in their own little world but whats gonna happen when those ppl step outside of that world?


They'll probably spend the majority of their time going to and from work and complaining about the price of gasoline and groceries, the same as the rest of us.  You act as though going to an ATA school will somehow make you more likely to get mugged, beaten up, or raped.  The reality is that the vast majority of people have no training at all.  At least the ATA folks are in better condition than the average American.  

You had brought up the subject of rape and fights that are just 'comin' at ya' earlier in this thread.  You apparently live in the DC area, so you should know what I am talking about when I say that if want to avoid being a potential rape victim, stay the hell out of Rock Creek Park when you jog or cycle unless you are with friends.  Put forethought into where you park when you go shopping and stay the heck off of your cell phone when walking back to your car.  With online shopping, you can avoid the malls altogether.  Just those things will drastically reduce your chances of being raped by a stranger.  As for people you know, establish very clear personal boundaries and good habits in dealing with people around you.  Most of self defense is mental, probably about 99%.

If you don't want fights comin' at ya, stay the hell out of the night club areas and don't frequent the gogo clubs (for those who don't live in DC, gogo is a type of music, not a topless bar).  Don't get 'gutsy' when someone cuts you off; unless theres a collision, just be happy that you don't have to deal with the insurrance company and be on your way.  Most of self defense is mental, probably about 99%.

I live in the DC area and used be in DC frequently back when DC was the "Murder Capitol of the World" according to the news.  The single incident that I had would have been avoided if I had taken my own advice.  Yes, I came out on top and the would be mugger was sent running.  The fact is that if I had taken my own advice regarding forethought in parking the car, the incident would never have happened.

In fact, all of the post-high school scrapes that I have had would not have occurred if I had taken the advice that I give people now.  I started taking that advice about twenty two years ago.  Magically, the only time that I have had to use my martial arts has been when I slipped on black ice and successfully used break-falling skills.  



Kinghercules said:


> Most of my conflicts havent happened where I live but always *when Im hangin out* or when I was in college.


Well, that should tell you something.  Choose your hangouts with greater care.  I do.  And I spent several years learning self defense with a former ROK special army instructor.



Kinghercules said:


> I just think to take an art that was developed for defense and offense and turn it into a what they have (and the Olympic crap too) is sad.


  How is it not defense and offense?  Striking in tournament, regardless of the rule set, is fencing; as in de*fence* and of*fence*.  That is where the term fencing comes from.  Boxing, kickboxing, sport karate, point/stop, continuous, full contact, light contact or semi contact, its all fencing.

If you want students to learn skills that will save their lives, teach them the mental.  Getting back to that ATA class content, look at what most of the kid oriented schools tout: fitness, discipline, self control, confidence, and good self image.  Ever notice that disciplined people with good self control who carry themselves with confidence and have a good self image tend to not be victims as often?  There is a reason for that: predators choose their victims because they project 'victim.'

Fitness means that you are capable of retaliation or effective flight *and* you look like you may present a challenge.  Discipline and self control are inclusive of good decision making.  Confidence and good self image mean that you are less likely to place yourself in unhealthy situations.  Predators choose their victims based on how easy a target they appear to be and whether or not they place themselves in situations that are favorable to the predator.  Such as  jogging alone in Rock Creek Park.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Earl Weiss said:


> I consider myself a Hapkido "Dabbler" . Having said that I have not seen a lot of groundwork in Hapkido. Sure, it shows you how to take the other guy down and control him, but as far as what to do if things have gone horribly wrong and you find yourself rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, ... not so much.


What groundwork I learned in hapkido was purloined from BJJ and/or wrestling.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You had brought up the subject of rape and fights that are just 'comin' at ya' earlier in this thread.  You apparently live in the DC area, so you should know what I am talking about when I say that if want to avoid being a potential rape victim, stay the hell out of Rock Creek Park when you jog or cycle unless you are with friends.  Put forethought into where you park when you go shopping and stay the heck off of your cell phone when walking back to your car.  With online shopping, you can avoid the malls altogether.  Just those things will drastically reduce your chances of being raped by a stranger.  As for people you know, establish very clear personal boundaries and good habits in dealing with people around you.  Most of self defense is mental, probably about 99%.



I don't know how it is in DC, but here most assaults, including sexual assaults, especially sexual assaults involving minors, are done by perpetrators who know their victims. However, like you state above, there are areas here to avoid as well, most instinctively know to avoid these types of places. 

Personally, my experiences with the ATA has been positive. Mostly it is limited to California (GM Clint Robinson's crew), although there were a couple of instructors here who tried to make a go of it. GM Robinson has the distinction of opening more ATA schools than anyone. He was travelling all over the place setting up schools for the ATA. Now he is completely converted over to kukki taekwondo and is helping many other ATA or former ATA instructor get Kukkiwon certified. Last time I saw him, he said he was doing three hundred or more kukkiwon poom and dan recommendations per year, and that was only from his own 25,000 students. That doesn't include the other instructors he is helping.


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or you could just take hapkido.



Maybe you can correct my misconceptions, but from what I've seen of hapkido grappling, it's more focused on Aikido-style joint locks and throws then what I've described.  How much actual groundwork is there?  Do you learn anything about fighting from guard, how to sweep, how to pass guard, chokes etc?


----------



## Cyriacus

SPX said:


> Maybe you can correct my misconceptions, but from what I've seen of hapkido grappling, it's more focused on Aikido-style joint locks and throws then what I've described.  How much actual groundwork is there?  Do you learn anything about fighting from guard, how to sweep, how to pass guard, chokes etc?


Im pretty sure they get Chokes and Sweeps - The others Im unsure of.
*Im also mostly replying so that I can set it up so that I get notified when someone Replies.


----------



## SPX

Cyriacus said:


> Im pretty sure they get Chokes and Sweeps - The others Im unsure of.
> *Im also mostly replying so that I can set it up so that I get notified when someone Replies.



Bear in mind that I'm using the term sweeps in the Judo/BJJ sense, i.e. you have someone on top of you and sweep them into bottom position.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

[FONT=&quot]





puunui said:


> I don't know how it is in DC, but here most assaults, including sexual assaults, especially sexual assaults involving minors, are done by perpetrators who know their victims. However, like you state above, there are areas here to avoid as well, most instinctively know to avoid these types of places.


It is the same.  I think that a lot of people do not have a good sense of self and place themselves in situations where the people that they regularly associate with are not always the healthiest associations to have.  Also, a lot of people write off inapproprate behavior on the part of others as simply being 'oh that's how he/she is' when in reality, these are warning signs.  

As far as minors go, physical self defense is primarilly an issue when the assailant is a stranger.  The problem with assailants, such as in the Catholic priest abuse scandal or cases of school teachers who are involved in abuse, the child is conditioned to obey such people and children usually do not have developed senses of what constitutes a specific warning signs.  The child is generally defeated mentally long before the abuse becomes physical.  Not to mention that regardless of what TKD school a kid goes to, adults usually have a definite advantage in size and strength.



puunui said:


> Personally, my experiences with the ATA has been positive. Mostly it is limited to California (GM Clint Robinson's crew), although there were a couple of instructors here who tried to make a go of it. GM Robinson has the distinction of opening more ATA schools than anyone. He was travelling all over the place setting up schools for the ATA. Now he is completely converted over to kukki taekwondo and is helping many other ATA or former ATA instructor get Kukkiwon certified. Last time I saw him, he said he was doing three hundred or more kukkiwon poom and dan recommendations per year, and that was only from his own 25,000 students. That doesn't include the other instructors he is helping.


What do you think of their curriculum?  I ask because you have had actual first hand experience and you are someone who's opinions on matters taekwondo carry weight in my eyes.[/FONT]


----------



## Cyriacus

SPX said:


> Bear in mind that I'm using the term sweeps in the Judo/BJJ sense, i.e. you have someone on top of you and sweep them into bottom position.


Oh, right 
Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## SPX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> [FONT=&amp]
> Not to mention that regardless of what TKD school a kid goes to, adults usually have a definite advantage in size and strength.
> [/FONT]



Right.

This is actually one point that I think is relevant to the discussion of child black belts.  Now granted, I think that 6 years old or whatever is much too young to be a black belt.  But I could see a 12 year old having the mental and physical maturity to have attained that rank.  Often in such discussions, someone says, "Yeah, but do you really think they could defend themselves against an adult?!"  I don't even think the point is relevant.  A 12-year-old black belt should not be expected to be able to defend him/herself against an adult.  A 12-year-old black belt should be able to defend himself against other 12 year olds.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> [FONT=&amp]What do you think of their curriculum?  I ask because you have had actual first hand experience and you are someone who's opinions on matters taekwondo carry weight in my eyes.[/FONT]




I am only going by what I have seen from GM Robinson's students, who I think are very good. Back in the 80's, I attending some open point tournaments and his student were always vying for the finals. I remember thinking they should compete at USTU events, because I think they had a chance to medal in the black belt sparring divisions and eventually make team. Then at some point GM Robinson converted completely to kukki taekwondo and are doing a good job there too. They did well at the Oakland Kukkiwon instructor course and I understand they compete at USAT events, and may have medaled in the black belt poomsae divisions at nationals. So they are very good. GM Robinson sets high standards for himself and his students. He is a textbook example of constant and never ending improvement. 

The ATA has a well developed curriculum, with manuals for everything, including for each color belt level. I have about half a shelf of their materials and it seems high quality to me. The curriculum looks pretty standard to other taekwondo schools. I think that it would be relatively easy for ATA members to convert to kukki taekwondo. I think they would have an easier time than ITF members, who have to unlearn sine wave. 

The ATA does have some schools in South Korea, or at least they used to. I remember watching tournaments at the Kukkiwon and there were some competitors who had ATA or Songahm patches on their dobok.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> I have about half a shelf of their materials and it seems high quality to me.



That's a curious statement, considering you're not affiliated with the organization.  Are you just interested enough in TKD as a whole that you try to learn everything you can?


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> That's a curious statement, considering you're not affiliated with the organization.  Are you just interested enough in TKD as a whole that you try to learn everything you can?



Yes, I try to obtain all the books on the martial arts (not just taekwondo books) that I can. It is something I started doing as a kid.


----------



## SPX

Makes sense.  Even though I am in no way affiliated with the ATA and probably never will be I've researched the organization quite a bit and have been trying to find their DVDs.


----------



## Earl Weiss

dancingalone said:


> I have a friend who runs a competing dojang. A while back he solicited my advice on adding exactly this kind of material to his curriculum. After some research and experimentation, he ended up taking the Combat Hapkido route. .



Been to a Combat Hapkido Seminar and bought the DVD's I like their approach although at least at this point the material is limited compared  BJJ for groundwork. At one point Pelligrini was paired with Carlson Gracie jr. for some seminars.


----------



## dancingalone

Earl Weiss said:


> Been to a Combat Hapkido Seminar and bought the DVD's I like their approach although at least at this point the material is limited compared  BJJ for groundwork. At one point Pelligrini was paired with Carlson Gracie jr. for some seminars.



I attended one last year myself and had a good time.  A significant number of the attendees were police officers or some other form of law enforcement professionals.  That seems like a pretty good endorsement to me as presumably these people would make use of the skills taught at some point on the job.  Likewise most of the people I interacted with had substantial training elsewhere before getting involved with Combat Hapkido.


----------



## dancingalone

They're easy enough to get.  My sister has sold her kids' dvds on Ebay and she said Ebay is full of them.  While they are relatively slick (they were made in the nineties I believe for VHS and then the tape was transferred to DVD with a few menu improvements), they suffer from the usual martial arts videos problems where they really are just demos of the material at hand.


----------



## puunui

dancingalone said:


> They're easy enough to get.  My sister has sold her kids' dvds on Ebay and she said Ebay is full of them.  While they are relatively slick (they were made in the nineties I believe for VHS and then the tape was transferred to DVD with a few menu improvements), they suffer from the usual martial arts videos problems where they really are just demos of the material at hand.




There is an entire ATA DVD set for sale on Ebay right now: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATA-Way-Tra...233?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48434b9d39


----------



## hungryninja

The DVDs for ATA black belt (1-4 dan) are much better than the color belt DVDs (more professional, higher quality).


----------



## SPX

Thanks y'all for the heads up on the DVDs.

$160 for that DVD set?  Seems high for an eBay price.

I'd kind of like to get some of their annual World Championships DVDs they produce.  Seems like that could be really interesting.


----------



## hungryninja

Those DVDs are well-produced.  Competition-wise, it doesn't show much...just highlight clips here and there.  The majority of it covers the opening/masters ceremony.  There are trailers/previews online that you can see, and you will get an idea.



SPX said:


> Thanks y'all for the heads up on the DVDs.
> 
> $160 for that DVD set?  Seems high for an eBay price.
> 
> I'd kind of like to get some of their annual World Championships DVDs they produce.  Seems like that could be really interesting.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

SPX said:


> Maybe you can correct my misconceptions, but from what I've seen of hapkido grappling, it's more focused on Aikido-style joint locks and throws then what I've described.


Sorry, I missed your question entirely. 

From what I have seen of aikido, hapkido techniques are pretty similar.  Note, I do not train in aikido, so I am sure that there are major differences that are not immediately apparent from just watching a little of both, inspite the fact that they share the same kanji.


SPX said:


> How much actual groundwork is there? Do you learn anything about fighting from guard, how to sweep, how to pass guard, chokes etc?


In the hapkido that I have learned, most of the groundwork is geared towards getting back up, not on BJJ or wrestling style ground grappling.   Hapkido has sweeps and take downs.  I am not familiar with the BJJ/wrestling terminology, so I cannot answer your questions about 'fighting from guard.'  I have a WHA video that details much more groundwork that I have learned.  It looks more like what I saw at a BJJ seminar than anything that I was ever taught.  

The reason that I said what I said was because hapkido already has an integrated striking and grappling curriculum without the need to be grafting one style onto another.  Additionally, hapkido generally has a well developed weapons curriculum.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I have seen of aikido, hapkido techniques are pretty similar.  Note, I do not train in aikido, so I am sure that there are major differences that are not immediately apparent from just watching a little of both, inspite the fact that they share the same kanji.




Also, your Hapkido lineage (which is my original lineage too) has Japanese Aikido blended into it. So that may be a reason why your Hapkido and Aikido looks similar. In the mid 1960's, an Aikido practitioner from Japan went to Korea and visited many Hapkido dojang. He wanted to do an exchange with Hapkido practitioners, but the only one who was interested was GM MYUNG Jae Nam. GM Myung (no relation to GM MYUNG Kwang Sik) exchanged techniques with this Aikido practitioner (who can tell me his name?) and eventually was appointed the Korean representative for the Aikikai.


----------



## SPX

So I don't get it . . . I was actually under the impression that hapkido from the beginning was a fusion of TKD and aikido.

If that's not the case, was there always grappling from hapkido, and if so, where did it originally come from?


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> So I don't get it . . . I was actually under the impression that hapkido from the beginning was a fusion of TKD and aikido.



With the single exception of GM MYUNG Jae Nam's branch, Hapkido has nothing to do with aikido, or taekwondo for that matter. Hapkido has way more kicking techniques than taekwondo, and hapkido kicks are delivered differently. At least they used to. But there has been so much borrowing from each other that there are similarities today for sure. 




SPX said:


> If that's not the case, was there always grappling from hapkido, and if so, where did it originally come from?



Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.


----------



## SPX

Interesting.  You learn something new every day, I guess.  I have believed for years that hapkido has always been TKD + some aikido-based grappling.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Interesting.  You learn something new every day, I guess.  I have believed for years that hapkido has always been TKD + some aikido-based grappling.



The father of Hapkido (GM CHOI Yong Sul) and the founder of Aikido, (UESHIBA Morihei Sensei) learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu from the same teacher, TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei. So in that sense, Aikido and Hapkido are cousins. 

The kicks in Hapkido were developed by two people, GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong who were classmates at GM Choi's Yukwonsul dojang. GM Ji said that he learned kicks from a taoist monk, who was a friend of the family. This monk taught GM JI "Taekiliyon", not Taekkyon. GM Ji also got kicking ideas from other places, including the bible. GM Ji is very proud of his kicking techniques, which revolutionalized kicking, not only in Korea, but the world. For example, the spin hook kick was originally a Hapkido kick, which taekwondo and other arts borrowed. Same thing with ax kick, which was originally a hapkido kick.


----------



## Chris Parker

puunui said:


> The father of Hapkido (GM CHOI Yong Sul) and the founder of Aikido, (UESHIBA Morihei Sensei) learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu from the same teacher, TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei. So in that sense, Aikido and Hapkido are cousins.



Just to clarify, this isn't universally accepted. The source for such claims seems to be Choi himself, who claimed to be a "house boy" (sometimes going so far as to say he was an "adopted son") of Takeda Sokaku, and he learnt Daito Ryu from Takeda himself. However, the records of the Daito Ryu show no record of Choi's name, there is no corroborating evidence of Choi living with Takeda, let alone being an "adopted son" (and, to be sure about it, the Japanese are some of the most meticulous record keepers around, and the idea of adopted sons is very common, so wouldn't be something "hidden"). Ueshiba Kisshomaru, son of Ueshiba Morihei, founder of Aikido, has said that his father (Ueshiba Morihei) mentioned a young Korean person, aged about 17 or 18, who attended one or two seminars of Daito Ryu, and when training, treated Ueshiba as the senior (which would not be the case for an "adopted son" who trained as long as Choi claimed to). Kisshomaru went on to say that the young Korean continued to keep contact with Ueshiba Morihei for a while afterwards as well, which presumably included the two training together on occasion.

If we then add in the fact that "Hapkido" is really nothing more than the Korean pronunciation of the Japanese characters for "Aikido", I personally find it more likely that Choi had a little exposure to Daito Ryu (through one or two seminars, not formal training, and certainly not long term training), and then continued to have contact with Ueshiba, to the point where he realistically was actually more training in early Aikido (which was closer to Daito Ryu in application, anyway), and then wanted to introduce, or create, a Korean form of Aikido.

There are some rather large gaps between the approach of Daito Ryu and Hapkido, the lack of formal kata taught in a progressive fashion, instead having a range of techniques that are then taught as separate components, put together at the practitioners discretion, which, again, is closer to the way Aikido was trained under Ueshiba Morihei (it was Kisshomaru who re-organized Aikido in the AikiKai in order to give it structure and a form of progression, but still not the classical kata form expected of a Daito Ryu approach).

So Daito Ryu? Yeah, to a degree. But more realistically, only in a removed way. Early Aikido is where you should be looking.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

SPX said:


> So I don't get it . . . I was actually under the impression that hapkido from the beginning was a fusion of TKD and aikido.
> 
> If that's not the case, was there always grappling from hapkido, and if so, where did it originally come from?



Hapkido was being developed around the same time that the five original TKD kwans were opening up after the war and doing what they were doing.  Taekwondo wasn't even being called taekwondo at that point.  General Choi would bring in a hapkido master to facili  So yes, there was always grappling in hapkido.  Choi Yong Sul's stated origin for the grappling is Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu.  There are people who dispute this origin, but regardless, striking, grappling and joint locks have always been a part of hapkido.  Much of the high kicking curriculum was developed by Kim Mu Hong and Ji Han Jae from what I understand.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In the hapkido that I have learned, most of the groundwork is geared towards getting back up, not on BJJ or wrestling style ground grappling. Hapkido has sweeps and take downs. I am not familiar with the BJJ/wrestling terminology, so I cannot answer your questions about 'fighting from guard.' *I have a WHA video that details much more groundwork that I have learned*. It looks more like what I saw at a BJJ seminar than anything that I was ever taught.


Too late to edit, but this should have read _than_ I have learned, not that.


----------



## puunui

Chris Parker said:


> Just to clarify, this isn't universally accepted.



It is universally accepted, by hapkido practitioners. I can't speak for non-hapkido practitioners, such as yourself.





Chris Parker said:


> The source for such claims seems to be Choi himself,



I choose to believe GM Choi, since he really has no reason to lie about it. 




Chris Parker said:


> However, the records of the Daito Ryu show no record of Choi's name,



First of all, all of TAKEDA Sokaku's records (which were payment records) are still with us today. Some were lost. But since we are on the topic, do the records show Tokimune Sensei's of the dates of his participation at seminars? If so, how much did he pay his father for lessons? 




Chris Parker said:


> there is no corroborating evidence of Choi living with Takeda, let alone being an "adopted son"



GM Choi never said he was adopted by Takeda Sensei; what he said was he was with Takeda Sensei for so long that he felt like his adopted son, that Takeda Sensei was like a father to him. Many people say similar things, without the legal paperwork being done. One of my instructors and I are very close, so much so that he once told me that I was like his younger brother. But according to you, this can't be true, since there is no "record" or "corroborating evidence" of this. 




Chris Parker said:


> Ueshiba Kisshomaru, son of Ueshiba Morihei, founder of Aikido, has said that his father (Ueshiba Morihei) mentioned a young Korean person, aged about 17 or 18, who attended one or two seminars of Daito Ryu, and when training, treated Ueshiba as the senior (which would not be the case for an "adopted son" who trained as long as Choi claimed to). Kisshomaru went on to say that the young Korean continued to keep contact with Ueshiba Morihei for a while afterwards as well, which presumably included the two training together on occasion.



What Kisshomaru Sensei said was his father told him that a group of Korean students took a seminar with his father, and that after his father passed away, Kisshomaru Sensei stated that he received a letter from GM Choi. What I would like to know is what was written in the letter that GM Choi sent to Kisshomaru Sensei. That would be revealing. 




Chris Parker said:


> I personally find it more likely that Choi had a little exposure to Daito Ryu (through one or two seminars, not formal training, and certainly not long term training), and then continued to have contact with Ueshiba, to the point where he realistically was actually more training in early Aikido (which was closer to Daito Ryu in application, anyway), and then wanted to introduce, or create, a Korean form of Aikido.



So are you now saying that GM Choi did study with Takeda Sensei? I thought you said that wasn't universally accepted? 

The problem with your conclusions (outside of the fact that you misstate what Kisshomaru Sensei actually said) is that Morihei Sensei wasn't there 24/7 with Takeda Sensei, so he wouldn't know the extent to which GM Choi was or wasn't there. Just because he mentioned a seminar in which Korean students participated doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that that was all GM Choi did. 

Another problem is that from the very beginning, GM Choi referred to his art as Dae Dong Ryu Hapki Yusul (Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu in Korean), which was later changed to Yukwonsul, then to Kido and then finally to Hapkido, only after his student GM JI Han Jae printed dan certificates for him to issue with the Hapkido name on it. If anything, GM Choi went out of his way to NOT use the Hapkido name, until the mid 60's or late 60's, which is twenty years after he returned to Korea. 




Chris Parker said:


> There are some rather large gaps between the approach of Daito Ryu and Hapkido, the lack of formal kata taught in a progressive fashion, instead having a range of techniques that are then taught as separate components, put together at the practitioners discretion, which, again, is closer to the way Aikido was trained under Ueshiba Morihei (it was Kisshomaru who re-organized Aikido in the AikiKai in order to give it structure and a form of progression, but still not the classical kata form expected of a Daito Ryu approach).



I find it interesting that you also see a difference between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. To some people out there, it's all the same. Let me ask you, do you see a difference between Hapkido and Chin Na or a difference between Daito Ryu and Chin Na? 




Chris Parker said:


> So Daito Ryu? Yeah, to a degree. But more realistically, only in a removed way. Early Aikido is where you should be looking.



Even assuming you are correct, then the conclusion would be that GM Choi did learn from Takeda Sensei, which what you quoted from my prior post and you said was not universally accepted. You accept the fact that GM Choi learned from Takeda Sensei, right?

In concluding, I find it fascinating how on one hand, Japanese style martial artists are quick to state long and loud that Taekwondo is "nothing more than Shotokan", even though there is no corroborating evidence or documentation to that effect. But when it comes to Hapkido, those same practitioners will argue there is no connection between Daito Ryu and Hapkido.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> The father of Hapkido (GM CHOI Yong Sul) and the founder of Aikido, (UESHIBA Morihei Sensei) learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu from the same teacher, TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei. So in that sense, Aikido and Hapkido are cousins.
> 
> The kicks in Hapkido were developed by two people, GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong who were classmates at GM Choi's Yukwonsul dojang. GM Ji said that he learned kicks from a taoist monk, who was a friend of the family. This monk taught GM JI "Taekiliyon", not Taekkyon. GM Ji also got kicking ideas from other places, including the bible. GM Ji is very proud of his kicking techniques, which revolutionalized kicking, not only in Korea, but the world. For example, the spin hook kick was originally a Hapkido kick, which taekwondo and other arts borrowed. Same thing with ax kick, which was originally a hapkido kick.




Interesting.  Thanks for the info.

I don't get the bit about the Bible, though. . . Kicking ideas from the Bible?  lolwut?


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> In concluding, I find it fascinating how on one hand, Japanese style martial artists are quick to state long and loud that Taekwondo is "nothing more than Shotokan", even though there is no corroborating evidence or documentation to that effect.



Isn't it a known fact that Gen. Choi studied Shotokan in Japan and then used it as the basis for TKD?  If that's true, I would not say that it's "nothing more than Shotokan," but definitely that it is a Shotokan off-shoot like any other.  Though with the advent of Olympic-style TKD and the extreme emphasis on kicks, the apple has certainly rolled rather far away from the tree.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I don't get the bit about the Bible, though. . . Kicking ideas from the Bible?  lolwut?



Do you know the story of Jericho, where they circled the walls of the city seven times, blew a trumpet and the walls fell down? That story inspired GM Ji to develop the Hapkido spin kick, which was originally done repeatedly, low, middle and high. That sort of thing. GM Ji took inspiration from all kinds of sources to develop techniques.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> Isn't it a known fact that Gen. Choi studied Shotokan in Japan and then used it as the basis for TKD?




Where is the proof of that, other than General Choi repeatedly saying that in his books?


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Do you know the story of Jericho, where they circled the walls of the city seven times, blew a trumpet and the walls fell down? That story inspired GM Ji to develop the Hapkido spin kick, which was originally done repeatedly, low, middle and high. That sort of thing. GM Ji took inspiration from all kinds of sources to develop techniques.



I do know that story and that's very interesting.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Where is the proof of that, other than General Choi repeatedly saying that in his books?



I'm certainly not the martial arts historian that some people around here are.  But let's look at the obvious:  For one, ITF TKD looks a lot like Shotokan.  In fact, from what I understand, some of the very early forms were almost indistinguishable from Shotokan forms.  So should we believe that he derived his art from Shotokan or that he magically created a style of martial arts that was extremely similar totally independently?  

Furthermore, why would he lie?  It seems that, if anything, that was a fact that he would want to cover up for political reasons, not broadcast it to the world.  After all, how could Koreans really get that excited and feel a sense of national pride for a martial art that wasn't even really theirs?

Do you really doubt that TKD came from Shotokan or are you making the point that documentation does not exist for everything that is true?  

I suspect the latter.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I'm certainly not the martial arts historian that some people around here are.  But let's look at the obvious:  For one, ITF TKD looks a lot like Shotokan.  In fact, from what I understand, some of the very early forms were almost indistinguishable from Shotokan forms.  So should we believe that he derived his art from Shotokan or that he magically created a style of martial arts that was extremely similar totally independently?



The proof I was talking about was more things like photos from Japan training, certificates, etc. In his autobiography, he shows other photographs during his time in Japan, so you would think he would still have his dan certificate and that sort of thing. This is the type of documentation that is being demanded from GM CHOI Yong Sul with respect to his training in Daito Ryu.




SPX said:


> Furthermore, why would he lie?  It seems that, if anything, that was a fact that he would want to cover up for political reasons, not broadcast it to the world.  After all, how could Koreans really get that excited and feel a sense of national pride for a martial art that wasn't even really theirs?



I don't think General Choi was lying about actually training in Shotokan in Japan; what he was lying about, according to the seniors, was the extent of his training. For example, GM LEE Won Kuk said that General Choi did study karate while a student at Chuo University for less than one year before he flunked out and voluntarily joined the Japanese Army. 




SPX said:


> Do you really doubt that TKD came from Shotokan or are you making the point that documentation does not exist for everything that is true?  I suspect the latter.



I do not doubt that Shotokan played a part in the creation of taekwondo. What I doubt is the extent of General Choi's training in shotokan as well as his contributions in the creation of taekwondo. He is not the founder of taekwondo. No one is, because it was a group effort.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> GM LEE Won Kuk said that General Choi did study karate while a student at Chuo University for less than one year before he flunked out and voluntarily joined the Japanese Army.



He supported the enemy of the USA and Korea even back then, way before he started the teaching of Taekwondo to assassins in North Korean terrorist training camps, which lead to the murderous deaths of hundreds of innocent South Koreans at the hands of his Taekwondo trained killers.  That goes to show, once a piece of human garbage, always a piece of human garbage.


----------



## Chris Parker

puunui said:


> It is universally accepted, by hapkido practitioners. I can't speak for non-hapkido practitioners, such as yourself.



Personally, I wouldn't be so quick to claim to speak for Hapkido practitioners either... it may have more support in the Hapkido community, but it is not universally supported. And besides, wouldn't people who don't agree (outside of Hapkido or not) mean that it, by definition, isn't universally accepted?



puunui said:


> I choose to believe GM Choi, since he really has no reason to lie about it.



Oh, there's plenty of reasons, it just depends on how you choose to view the man. And when it comes down to it, if the evidence doesn't support the claims, whether you can see reasons for lying, or at the very least, embellishing and exaggerating the truth, it really doesn't make the story more believable.



puunui said:


> First of all, all of TAKEDA Sokaku's records (which were payment records) are still with us today. Some were lost. But since we are on the topic, do the records show Tokimune Sensei's of the dates of his participation at seminars? If so, how much did he pay his father for lessons?



That's really not the type of records I'm talking about. Koryu are rather meticulous in their records, which are lists of who has entered the Ryu, who achieved what level, what form of membership they had, and so on. It's not really the same as just keeping the receipts from seminars, as people who simply attended a seminar would not be considered members of the Ryu, and as such would not be considered as having learnt the Ryu's methods, simply having some exposure to it. Remarkably, the only "records" that have been mentioned that show Choi's involvement in the Daito Ryu were apparently "stolen on a train" when he was coming back to Korea from Japan.



puunui said:


> GM Choi never said he was adopted by Takeda Sensei; what he said was he was with Takeda Sensei for so long that he felt like his adopted son, that Takeda Sensei was like a father to him. Many people say similar things, without the legal paperwork being done. One of my instructors and I are very close, so much so that he once told me that I was like his younger brother. But according to you, this can't be true, since there is no "record" or "corroborating evidence" of this.



 I'm not disputing that it could happen, but there are some major issues with it. Namely, that no-one else can back up this relationship. I'm sure that there are members of your school who can verify your training with your instructor, and probably speak to their perception of the level your relationship is. That would be "corroborating evidence", of which there is a complete lack with regard to Choi's claims.

But you may want to be a bit more careful arguing so strongly.... here's the interview in question: http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/choi__yong-sul.html You may want to take note of the answer to the third question:


			
				Choi Yong Sul said:
			
		

> Takeda Sokaku liked me, and feeling great sympathy for my situation, decided to adopt me. Upon my adoption he gave me the Japanese name Asao Yoshida. I was about 11 years old at this time.


Interestingly, this is one of two different Japanese names that Choi has said Takeda gave him.

There are in fact a huge number of claims made in this interview which fly in the face of all other evidence, such as the claims of being Takeda's demonstration assistant when no-one remembers him, the trips organized by politicians to Hawaii with Takeda, and so on. There are odd things like the claim about the evading of the draft, when that was one of the only ways that Korean persons in Japan could find some acceptance, so most would seek to not be excluded. But the biggest things that shoot holes in the story are the comments about what Choi was taught (including his claim of Daito Ryu having about a thousand more techniques than it actually does), specifically this:


			
				Choi Yong Sul said:
			
		

> Shortly before he died, my teacher informed me that I was the only student that he had schooled in all of his secrets and techniques.



This claim is demonstrably ludicrous, frankly. Choi, and by extension Hapkido, show no training in any of the weaponry aspects of Daito Ryu (the system includes sword, Bo, Jo, and short blade work, with no Hapkido schools having even a trace of it), and (here's where I annoy the Hapkido students...) the technical material showing only a very low level understanding or exposure to the system itself, being basically just the first approach (the Jujutsu, not the Aikijujutsu, and certainly not the Aikijutsu), and only to a relatively low level at that. There is no "completeness" to the methods shown (from a Japanese Ryu-ha approach), which would have been integral to Choi's training if he had had anything beyond the most cursory exposure (say, at a seminar or two, and some informal training).



puunui said:


> What Kisshomaru Sensei said was his father told him that a group of Korean students took a seminar with his father, and that after his father passed away, Kisshomaru Sensei stated that he received a letter from GM Choi. What I would like to know is what was written in the letter that GM Choi sent to Kisshomaru Sensei. That would be revealing.



Really? Let's go to the source, shall we? It's an interview with Kisshomaru done by Stanley Pranin of the AikiNews magazine. Wonderfully, the relevant section is found on Wikipedia (nice when something relevant is there...)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido

Again, the piece in question is this:


			
				AikiNews said:
			
		

> *On another subject, it is true that a Korean named "Choi" who founded hapkido studied aikido or Daito-ryu?I don't know what art it was but I understand that there was a young Korean of about 17 or 18 who participated in a seminar of Sokaku Takeda Sensei held in Asahikawa City in Hokkaid&#333;. It seems that he studied the art together with my father and would refer to him as his "senior".
> If that's the case the art must have been Daito-ryu.
> I've heard that this man who studied Daito-ryu had some contact with my father after that. Then he returned to Korea and began teaching Daito-ryu on a modest scale. The art gradually became popular and many Koreans trained with him. Since aikido became popular in Japan he called his art hapkido [written in Korean with the same characters as aikido]. Then the art split into many schools before anyone realized it. This is what my father told me. I once received a letter from this teacher after my father's death.*


*
*So we have here basically what I said in my initial post. Hmm.



puunui said:


> So are you now saying that GM Choi did study with Takeda Sensei? I thought you said that wasn't universally accepted?



That Daito Ryu is the source? Yeah, I do say that's not universally accepted. There are some Hapkido practitioners who disavow any connection with Japanese arts at all, preferring to believe that it's all uniquely and historically Korean, and others want to deny that Choi was even in Japan. So I'd say that it's not universally accepted. What I didn't say was where I came down in the validity of the claim... but, as I later said, I think he had some exposure to Daito Ryu, and some contact with Ueshiba, but that doesn't make the Daito Ryu anything more than a technical influence, rather than an actual source. I know that sounds like semantics, but I see no trace of what makes Daito Ryu Daito Ryu in anything from Hapkido. 



puunui said:


> The problem with your conclusions (outside of the fact that you misstate what Kisshomaru Sensei actually said) is that Morihei Sensei wasn't there 24/7 with Takeda Sensei, so he wouldn't know the extent to which GM Choi was or wasn't there. Just because he mentioned a seminar in which Korean students participated doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that that was all GM Choi did.



Ueshiba was a student with Takeda for seven years, and there are no mentions of Choi being present throughout that time. Choi's answer to that was that he was "secluded away at Takeda's mountain home"... which is just bizarre. He, in the same interview, claims to have been hidden away, which is why he wasn't seen by other students, but also that he was involved in the teaching of the Japanese Imperial Family, and was taken as the assistant to Hawaii. You don't see an issue with that claim?

Oh, and re-read what Kisshomaru said. 



puunui said:


> Another problem is that from the very beginning, GM Choi referred to his art as Dae Dong Ryu Hapki Yusul (Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu in Korean), which was later changed to Yukwonsul, then to Kido and then finally to Hapkido, only after his student GM JI Han Jae printed dan certificates for him to issue with the Hapkido name on it. If anything, GM Choi went out of his way to NOT use the Hapkido name, until the mid 60's or late 60's, which is twenty years after he returned to Korea.



Believe it or not, that doesn't lend credibility to the story he spins. After all, there's a large number of people out there using all sorts of names that they have no claim to in order to heighten their appeal or popular perception.



puunui said:


> I find it interesting that you also see a difference between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. To some people out there, it's all the same. Let me ask you, do you see a difference between Hapkido and Chin Na or a difference between Daito Ryu and Chin Na?



Yeah, I see a huge difference between Daito Ryu and Hapkido. As far as Chin Na, that's basically a generic term for grappling in Chinese systems, similar to the usage of the term "jujutsu", so yes. Daito Ryu is Daito Ryu, and has a large number of traits that define it which are wholly missing from Hapkido or Chin Na.



puunui said:


> Even assuming you are correct, then the conclusion would be that GM Choi did learn from Takeda Sensei, which what you quoted from my prior post and you said was not universally accepted. You accept the fact that GM Choi learned from Takeda Sensei, right?



I feel that he learned a little bit from him, but nowhere near what is claimed. There is simply no evidence to support it, including what is found in Hapkido.



puunui said:


> In concluding, I find it fascinating how on one hand, Japanese style martial artists are quick to state long and loud that Taekwondo is "nothing more than Shotokan", even though there is no corroborating evidence or documentation to that effect. But when it comes to Hapkido, those same practitioners will argue there is no connection between Daito Ryu and Hapkido.



You may indeed find it fascinating. I personally find it fascinating when people not associated with the Japanese arts, particularly Koryu, try arguing them with me... but there is direct evidence in TKD to show the Shotokan origins. In Hapkido, there are some similarities, but not to the degree that I would really say there is a definite connection to Daito Ryu in any major meaningful way. Some exposure, some influence, okay, but that's it, and could just as easily be more to do with Aikido than any meaningful Daito Ryu exposure.


----------



## Cyriacus

I think a big problem is that when most folks think Shotokan, they think of the Modern, Sport Shotokan. Traditional Shotokan is reasonably harsh.


----------



## Twin Fist

oh for craps sake...

this AGAIN??

look, the cold hard reality is when it comes to martial arts? koreans are thieves and liars.

which is to say:
they learn other people's arts, call it something else, and make up big elaborate FALSE histories

TKD in it's original incarnation was shotokan, plain, pure and simple.

the kata were only slightly changed shotokan kata, and the system was CALLED "korean karate" I know this because the FIRST korean to teach in the US, GM Jhoon Rhree said so. I know this because GM Rhee's first BB in america, GM ALLEN STEEN said so.

TKD=shotokan called something else

Hapkido = Akido called something else.

could we please accept it (even if the koreans are still telling lies about the origin of thier arts, I aint korean, so i wont be telling that lie) and move on?

sure, they are thier own entities now, but back in the 50's? it was all stolen directly from the japanese. 

now how the hell did a thread on the ATA turn into THIS??


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> oh for craps sake...
> 
> this AGAIN??
> 
> look, the cold hard reality is when it comes to martial arts? koreans are thieves and liars.



Now that's a broad brush.  Cannot agree with you there.  Such people exist in every field and in every nationality.



Twin Fist said:


> now how the hell did a thread on the ATA turn into THIS??


The same way that so many other thread in the TKD section turns into this.  Which is one of the reasons I stopped posting with frequency in the TKD section.


----------



## Grenadier

Twin Fist said:


> now how the hell did a thread on the ATA turn into THIS??



Good point... Maybe everyone should turn back to the topic of the opinions on the ATA?


----------



## Twin Fist

you and me both Daniel.

jeez

and here is the thing, the koreans took something (in this case shotokan) didnt give credit for it, called it something else, and sold it

thats theft.

they then proceeded to make up elaborate histories about silla dynasty warriors and a bunch of other CRAP

thats lying

i stand by what it said.

the guys NOW are teaching TKD, a korean creation

the guys THEN were teaching shotokan and calling it something else.


----------



## jks9199

*Thread locked pending staff review.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Admin Asst.
*


----------



## jks9199

*Admin Note:

This thread is being reopened.  Play nice, folks, or we'll be issuing infractions.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite & respectful.  Please return to the original topic.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
Admin. Asst.
*


----------



## Twin Fist

ATA, is, for lack of a better term, the Walmart of TKD

in every good way that implies, and every bad way that implies.

you can find some great stuff at walmart, and you can find utter crap.

your milage will vary by location, EXACTLY like the ATA


----------



## Kinghercules

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Fake in what way?  And what is your firsthand experience with the ATA?  If you've said over the past twelve pages, my apologies, but I was under the impression that you have no firsthand experience whatsoever.  One of the reasons that I avoid saying anything beyond what is generally known is that I don't have firsthand experience with them.
> 
> 
> They'll probably spend the majority of their time going to and from work and complaining about the price of gasoline and groceries, the same as the rest of us.  You act as though going to an ATA school will somehow make you more likely to get mugged, beaten up, or raped.  The reality is that the vast majority of people have no training at all.  At least the ATA folks are in better condition than the average American.
> 
> You had brought up the subject of rape and fights that are just 'comin' at ya' earlier in this thread.  You apparently live in the DC area, so you should know what I am talking about when I say that if want to avoid being a potential rape victim, stay the hell out of Rock Creek Park when you jog or cycle unless you are with friends.  Put forethought into where you park when you go shopping and stay the heck off of your cell phone when walking back to your car.  With online shopping, you can avoid the malls altogether.  Just those things will drastically reduce your chances of being raped by a stranger.  As for people you know, establish very clear personal boundaries and good habits in dealing with people around you.  Most of self defense is mental, probably about 99%.
> 
> If you don't want fights comin' at ya, stay the hell out of the night club areas and don't frequent the gogo clubs (for those who don't live in DC, gogo is a type of music, not a topless bar).  Don't get 'gutsy' when someone cuts you off; unless theres a collision, just be happy that you don't have to deal with the insurrance company and be on your way.  Most of self defense is mental, probably about 99%.
> 
> I live in the DC area and used be in DC frequently back when DC was the "Murder Capitol of the World" according to the news.  The single incident that I had would have been avoided if I had taken my own advice.  Yes, I came out on top and the would be mugger was sent running.  The fact is that if I had taken my own advice regarding forethought in parking the car, the incident would never have happened.
> 
> In fact, all of the post-high school scrapes that I have had would not have occurred if I had taken the advice that I give people now.  I started taking that advice about twenty two years ago.  Magically, the only time that I have had to use my martial arts has been when I slipped on black ice and successfully used break-falling skills.
> 
> 
> Well, that should tell you something.  Choose your hangouts with greater care.  I do.  And I spent several years learning self defense with a former ROK special army instructor.
> 
> How is it not defense and offense?  Striking in tournament, regardless of the rule set, is fencing; as in de*fence* and of*fence*.  That is where the term fencing comes from.  Boxing, kickboxing, sport karate, point/stop, continuous, full contact, light contact or semi contact, its all fencing.
> 
> If you want students to learn skills that will save their lives, teach them the mental.  Getting back to that ATA class content, look at what most of the kid oriented schools tout: fitness, discipline, self control, confidence, and good self image.  Ever notice that disciplined people with good self control who carry themselves with confidence and have a good self image tend to not be victims as often?  There is a reason for that: predators choose their victims because they project 'victim.'
> 
> Fitness means that you are capable of retaliation or effective flight *and* you look like you may present a challenge.  Discipline and self control are inclusive of good decision making.  Confidence and good self image mean that you are less likely to place yourself in unhealthy situations.  Predators choose their victims based on how easy a target they appear to be and whether or not they place themselves in situations that are favorable to the predator.  Such as  jogging alone in Rock Creek Park.



In that post you replied to, I wasnt talkin about the ATA.  I was talkin about McDojo's instructors.

Im not gonna debate with you about how to avoid fights. The point I was making was that you cant predict when crap is gonna jump off.


----------



## SPX

Twin Fist said:


> ATA, is, for lack of a better term, the Walmart of TKD
> 
> in every good way that implies, and every bad way that implies.
> 
> you can find some great stuff at walmart, and you can find utter crap.
> 
> your milage will vary by location, EXACTLY like the ATA



I think this is a good description.  At this point I've talked to enough ATA instructors to know that there ARE some good ones.

The interesting thing though is that even these GOOD instructors--instructors who often wish they could spar harder, include face punches in sparring, and just generally teach in a more combat oriented fashion--say that by and large this is simply NOT what people want.  It's not what parents want for their kids, but even beyond that, it's often times not what adults want for themselves.  

I think that a lot of people who would go look even at a good quality ATA class and dismiss it as garbage because it doesn't fit their idea of what a martial arts class should be like, even if the students are perfectly happy with it.


----------



## VictorV

From my personal experience, I find that the ATA TKD is a joke. I used to beat up their black belts all the time. And my martial arts training came from books, movies, and wrasslin'. If I were looking for TKD dojang, I'd look at some place else.


----------



## SPX

True ambassadors. . .


----------



## puunui

Looks like typical friday night sparring at a local dojang to me. A lot of scoring opportunities not taken advantage of. I think ATA people can and have easily converted to kukki taekwondo. We are only talking about 17 forms.


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Looks like typical friday night sparring at a local dojang to me.



Yeah, it was a bit of a cheap shot on my part for the sake of humor.  Some of their techniques were pretty good, but others were pretty questionable and they seem to be quite fond of throwing their techniques WAY out of range to actually hit their opponent.



puunui said:


> I think ATA people can and have easily converted to kukki taekwondo. We are only talking about 17 forms.



I'm sure that's true.  I think that ATA guys would have an easier time with it than ITF TKD.


----------



## puunui

SPX said:


> I'm sure that's true.  I think that ATA guys would have an easier time with it than ITF TKD.



Are you talking about the sine wave?


----------



## SPX

puunui said:


> Are you talking about the sine wave?



I'm talking about punches to the head.

Mostly I just feel like ATA sparring skills will transfer better to WTF sparring than ITF sparring.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

SPX said:


> True ambassadors. . .


I actually thought they werent too bad, then I noticed they were black belts. No disrespect to the guys in the vid because they are just wearing the belt their org awarded them, but how do you get a black belt if you spar like that?


----------



## SPX

ralphmcpherson said:


> I actually thought they werent too bad, then I noticed they were black belts. No disrespect to the guys in the vid because they are just wearing the belt their org awarded them, but how do you get a black belt if you spar like that?



Yeah, I dunno.  I can come up with two legitimate explanations:

1.  They are just playing around.  Having fun.  Not going hard.  But why would you choose THAT video to be the one to upload for all the world to see?

2.  They really just aren't that good.


----------

