# The Effects of High Kicking



## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

This post was originally posted in the Kenpo Forum.  Dr. Dave gave permission for it to be shared.  I would like to post this for discussion and analyze how we do our kicks.  Are they that dangerous?  Is there good technique that could help to minimize hip wear?  Could some older kickers chime in and give us younger practicioners some advice?



> We rented a video-flouroscopy (VF) unit a couple years ago, and taped the open and closed chain joints in motion during the performance of basics. VF is ongoing X-ray...instead of a snapshot of a millisecod in time, it's watching TV. It's a several minute x-ray, used in physical medicine to either giude injection procedures, or to evaluate the movement of jonits for abnormal soft tissue findings. For example, someone beig taped in VF walking on a treadmill with a ruptured ACL on the right...the right knee will look very different, with an unatural "hitch" in it during gait, compared to the left. We were curious about some very specific things, relative to some concerns about biomechanics that had come about during a lecture on the effects of cumulative trauma sports injuries (i.e., guys who run wrong, swing their bat wrong, serve a tennis ball wrong, etc.). So we taped the hips and knees during specific types of kicks, the lumbar spine and thoraco-lumbar junction during lower extremity basics (kicks, small foot maneuvers, etc.), the shoulder during specific movements with the potential to create wear and tear for martial arts enthusiasts (reverse punches, upward blocks delivered to the side vs front, and backnuckles delivered to the side vs to the front). We also trained the VF on the cervical spine at the shoulders and base of skull while subjects from kenpo, kajukenbo, TKD, and boxing performed 5-10 repetitions of moves. We taped it, then analyzed the heck outta the tapes. I wish I had them still; I'm sure someone could make a PC friendly file of them, and we could post them here for all to see. But, to the point.
> 
> Front kicks are about the only kick that can biomechanically be done safely to chest height. Side kicks and roundhouses -- kicks delivered to the side of the body -- should not be delivered above the level of the belt; ideally, no higher than your own bladder (anatomically just slightly lower than the articulations of the hip joint). Doing so either 1) places more stress on intra-articular and peri-articular tissues than they were meant to have, or 2) requires accomodation and compensations at other places in the body (i.e., knees, spine at lumbo-pelvic junction, others) which create a whole set of injuries on their own.
> 
> ...


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

In this thread, I made this post.  I think the material is relavent here.



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I was thinking about the feet in regards to the side kick and about how we aligned our hips.  As the he chambering position for a side kick uncoils, the bottom foot pivots so that the spine comes in line with the hips as the kick is complete.  The hips are driving forward and the pivot of the foot articulates the body for impact.  If the heel is used for striking and the striking foot is turned slightly down, the force of the kick should be directly transferred through the leg, into the pelvis and up the spine.  In essence, the entire body kicks.



I'm wondering if this body articulation for kicking is harmful?  I've been doing it for over a decade and haven't any effects.

upnorthkyosa


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

This was the original thread in which the discussion took place.  Lots of very experienced martial artists commenting.  One point that was brought up was the value of basics.  Can we kick high with correct basics and preserve our bodies?


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## Doc (Apr 11, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> In this thread, I made this post.  I think the material is relavent here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Difficult to say without actually seeing it. Many muscle groups and varying postures take place upon execution that are too subtle to discern from writing about it. Generally speaking in this type of kick, the downward torque of and exposure of the knife edge of the foot to contact above the waist are incorrect, regardless of the placement of the hips, supporting foot, or pelvic.

Often it indeed does take in some cases in excess of a decade for the subtle damage to surface, but once it does it will become debilitating.

Chuck Norris, Bill Superfoot Wallace, and a host of others from Hap ki do (Sea Oh Choi), Shotokan (the Takahashi Brothers), Kenpo Karate (Bob Lies, Brian Hawkins), etc. were very effective for many years before the onset. Most, literally overnight went to being on crutches and intense pain and subsequent hip replacement.

There are old fools, and bold fools, but no old, bold fools.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Difficult to say without actually seeing it. Many muscle groups and varying postures take place upon execution that are too subtle to discern from writing about it. Generally speaking, the downward torque of and exposure of the knife edge of the foot to contact are incorrect, regardless of the placement of the hips or pelvic.



That is where I have had problems kicking, but my teacher taught that it was bad form.  In your opinion, would striking with the heel be more correct?


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## Doc (Apr 11, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> That is where I have had problems kicking, but my teacher taught that it was bad form.  In your opinion, would striking with the heel be more correct?  I'll see if I can post an mpeg of our technique.


Once again, genrally speaking, rotating the pelvic, and pointing the foot downward at a minimum of a 45 degree angle, and kicking with the heel, more approximates the natural posture the structure is designed to perform.

I refer to and remind those of the definition of a kick as I was taught and understand. Simply, "A kick should be an exaggerated step." If you were to take your natural movements utilized in locomotion and exaggerate them, would you get many of the kicks that you perform?

This kinda points to what my student Dr. Dave stated in his research, that the only kick that may be performed above the waist without injury is a front kick. I haven't discussed this with him yet, (cause he don't show up when he says he will - death coming) but in some cases I disagree with that. But in his defense he only explored certain aspects of kicking and hasn't launched an exhaustive research as far as I know for lack of time, if not other reasons.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Once again, genrally speaking, rotating the pelvic, and pointing the foot downward at a minimum of a 45 degree angle, and kicking with the heel, more approximates the natural posture the structure is designed to perform.
> 
> I refer to and remind those of the definition of a kick as I was taught and understand. Simply, "A kick should be an exaggerated step." If you were to take your natural movements utilized in locomotion and exaggerate them, would you get many of the kicks that you perform?
> 
> This kinda points to what my student Dr. Dave stated in his research, that the only kick that may be performed above the waist without injury is a front kick. I haven't discussed this with him yet, (cause he don't show up when he says he will - death coming) but in some cases I disagree with that. But in his defense he only explored certain aspects of kicking and hasn't launched an exhaustive research as far as I know for lack of time, if not other reasons.



The angle of my kicking leg is perhaps 25-30 degrees when compared the plane of my centerline.  With the pivot of my bottom foot, the orientation of my base leg is very similar to that of a high front kick.  

I think that without the pivot of the bottom foot may be causing some problems.  Also, by increasing the angle of the kicking leg in regards to the centerline, this may also be causing some of the hip issues.

BTW - thanks for your time and comments on this.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Once again, genrally speaking, rotating the pelvic, and pointing the foot downward at a minimum of a 45 degree angle, and kicking with the heel, more approximates the natural posture the structure is designed to perform.



I checked the Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee's book on this.  The 45 degree angle of the foot and the rotation of the hip are specified as being part of a good side kick.  

I wonder how this translates into the round, hook, crescent and wheel kicks?


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## Doc (Apr 11, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The angle of my kicking leg is perhaps 25-30 degrees when compared the plane of my centerline.  With the pivot of my bottom foot, the orientation of my base leg is very similar to that of a high front kick.
> 
> I think that without the pivot of the bottom foot may be causing some problems.  Also, by increasing the angle of the kicking leg in regards to the centerline, this may also be causing some of the hip issues.
> 
> BTW - thanks for your time and comments on this.



Yes and even a "back" kick done anatomically correct should not exceed the approximate 30 degree angle from 0 degree execution at the hip flexxor. Diminishing returns.


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## The Kai (Apr 12, 2005)

Doc, 

pretty much any kick should mimic the natural motions of the leg i.e. the front and rear kick by definition the only 2 anatomically true kicks


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> pretty much any kick should mimic the natural motions of the leg i.e. the front and rear kick by definition the only 2 anatomically true kicks



One of the assumptions that people are making is that walking and running are the most natural leg motions.  I'm not so sure this is a correct assumption.  What do you think of this???

When people crouch, the legs splay out to the sides to varying degree depending on flexability.  When I crouch to play with my daughter on the ground, my legs open far enough to admit my arms between my knees.  The configuration of my body puts my knees almost on the outside of my shoulders almost at the same level.  The angle of my legs going into my hips surpasses 90 degrees.  

This, I would recognize as a natural position for the legs also.  People have been crouching for thousands of years to do things like play with their daughters.

As far as kicking goes, I think this natural motion would cover the range of motion a crescent or wheel kick covers.  These kicks target the head and one must sweep their legs through a 45 degree arc that brings the knee up high.  

I'll see what I can come up with regarding round and the hook kick.


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## The Kai (Apr 12, 2005)

WAlking and Running are mankinds means of going to point to point.


Hunkering down would change the angles of your hip/upper thigh-but this is taking palce with your feet lower than your hips right?? The theory was you had more "lateral" flexibilty with kicks below the waist.   Children are wonderfully flexibile, but is it not becaust the bones, ligiments still have some give to them.  Which is why pushing kids into extreme flexibilty worries me about the future strenght/stability of thier hips


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> WAlking and Running are mankinds means of going to point to point.
> 
> 
> Hunkering down would change the angles of your hip/upper thigh-but this is taking palce with your feet lower than your hips right?? The theory was you had more "lateral" flexibilty with kicks below the waist.   Children are wonderfully flexibile, but is it not becaust the bones, ligiments still have some give to them.  Which is why pushing kids into extreme flexibilty worries me about the future strenght/stability of thier hips



Some cultures that do not sit in chairs but crouch down and squat when they stop to do something, have hip flexability that is far beyond the American norm.  This leads me to believe that this motion is also natural.  

If you think about this from an evolutionary perspective, the cultures of people who lived in africa 100,000 years ago probably did not have chairs.  They lived on the African plains and there wasn't a lot to sit on.  Therefore, natural selection is going to favor individuals with hips that can accomodate the crouched stance.  This is the crucible that formed our morphology.

When one is crouched down, the thighs can become parellel to the centerline of the body.  Also, the orientation the hips splays to the either side of the body.  It is a matter of usage and flexability to extend the leg at the knee when the thigh is at this point and the hips are in this orientation.  Motion forward and backward *and * at least a 45 degree angle splay legs in the hips is natural motion.  

I think that it may be difficult to separate to determine whether damage is from overuse or from pushing these extremes.


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## Feisty Mouse (Apr 12, 2005)

upnorth - interesting first post.  Thanks for sharing - I'm still reading.


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## The Kai (Apr 12, 2005)

Allright we've gotton to Crescent Kicks with how the hips work.  Side kicks are still an extreme range of motion


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Allright we've gotton to Crescent Kicks with how the hips work.  Side kicks are still an extreme range of motion



Dr. Dave laid out a good analysis of what I would consider the effects of bad technique and kicking.  He says that a front kick is pretty safe.

Doc and I were talking about side kicks.  I was attempting to show that crescent and wheel kicks also follow natural motion for legs.

Round and Hook kick remain to be analyzed.  I'll see what I can come up with and we'll see if anyone else chimes in.


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## kid (Apr 21, 2005)

so if all of these kicks are potentially hazardous to your hips and what not, What about stretching? your doing the same thing and for longer periods of time.  the butterfly stretch, splits.  gymnists can do all of these kicks how often do you hear of them needing hip replacements?  Are they doing something diffrent?  They can contort their body in very odd angles.  


kid


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## dubljay (Apr 21, 2005)

kid said:
			
		

> so if all of these kicks are potentially hazardous to your hips and what not, What about stretching? your doing the same thing and for longer periods of time. the butterfly stretch, splits. gymnists can do all of these kicks how often do you hear of them needing hip replacements? Are they doing something diffrent? They can contort their body in very odd angles.
> 
> 
> kid


 Stretching is different from kicking.  Think about it like this, when someone "peels out" or spins their tires in their car, the actual spinning of the tires does no harm to the car (provided its under control 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).  When the tires actually regain traction and the car slams forward there is incredible strain on the transmission and differential.  

 Stretching is like normal driving, no harm done, kicking is like spinning your tires, and then suddenly gaining traction.  Stretching has no impact (thats why you dont bounce when you stretch).  Kicking has a great deal of impact on the joints due to the snapping action, or from actually hitting a target.


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## Doc (Apr 21, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Dr. Dave laid out a good analysis of what I would consider the effects of bad technique and kicking.  He says that a front kick is pretty safe.
> 
> Doc and I were talking about side kicks.  I was attempting to show that crescent and wheel kicks also follow natural motion for legs.
> 
> Round and Hook kick remain to be analyzed.  I'll see what I can come up with and we'll see if anyone else chimes in.


As I teach and understand, the roundhouse kick sir is nothing but a "front kick" at an angle. As long as the kick does not excedd the proximate height commensurate with the height of your own sternum and proper adjustments are made to your vertical carraige to relieve pressure upon execution.

The "hook" kick as I envision it is one of the worse, if not the worse offender in causing damage to the hips. In general the "crescent," (once again as I understand its function) has similar guidelines as the roundhouse with a height exception that allows it to travel shoulder height.

All of these are simple safe guidelines, as they all depend on to some extent on individual body geometry, and anatomical density.


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## Doc (Apr 21, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> Stretching is different from kicking.  Think about it like this, when someone "peels out" or spins their tires in their car, the actual spinning of the tires does no harm to the car (provided its under control
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree stretching is different as you suggest. However stretching, like all human range of motion has limitations, and stretching beyond a certain point can and will cause damage. Consider most gymnasts begin training at a young age while the body is naturally limber and plyable, and their gymnastic "career" is relatively short. By the time most are in their early to mid-twenties they would be considered "seniors" in gymnastic circles and begin coaching and teaching before any real irreversible damage is done from stretching and hyper-extension.


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## dubljay (Apr 21, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> I agree stretching is different as you suggest. However stretching, like all human range of motion has limitations, and stretching beyond a certain point can and will cause damage. Consider most gymnasts begin training at a young age while the body is naturally limber and plyable, and their gymnastic "career" is relatively short. By the time most are in their early to mid-twenties they would be considered "seniors" in gymnastic circles and begin coaching and teaching before any real irreversible damage is done from stretching and hyper-extension.


 Good point, I've noticed that my ability to stretch has decreased noticeably compared to about 2 years ago.  Just recovering from a nasty groin pull I am very very slowly starting to stretch more and more, part of the reason im going slow is to be sure I don't re-injure myself, but the other part is I simply can't stretch like I used to.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 22, 2005)

Keep in mind, if high kicking is the only real workout your average student gives his legs and joints, then conceivably there could be problems down the road. They are engaging in an activity that is very stressful on the hips, then nothing, then stressful activity again. It also depends on how early you start training. Someone who starts at about 11-13, when the muscles, hips, and joints are much more pliable will undoubtably suffer fewer injuries and long term effects than someone who starts at, say, 35, when the musculoskeletal system is much less pliable due to age.
I have been doing high kicks for over 20 years to no ill effect. However, I will be the first to admit that if I have not stretched adequately, warmed up properly with cardio, or done high kicking in a while, I definitely feel it. Like any other physical activity, you must prepare for it. I have pulled back muscles doing spinning kicks without proper warmups.
Lastly, if you do not perform high kicks properly, you will suffer for it. I think many people emphasize the wrong muscle groups, which can lead to weakening of the muscles over time.
My recommendation?
1. Regular cardio to warm up and maintain blood flow to the muscles.
2. Weight lifting to keep the muscles strengthened.
3. Proper stetching to maintain muscular elasticity
4. Abdominal, hip, and lumbar conditioning, especially Pilates based, to keep those core muscles strengthened for high kicking.


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 22, 2005)

Michigan TKD,

My concern is that Bill Wallace did everything you suggested and still ended up with new hips at a relatively young age.  I believe that 20 years out he still felt great also.  Personally, I believe that if you want to Kick high and take the increased risk of early joint replacement surgery , go for it. The surgery is effective and improving every year.  I worry about telling others 


> My recommendation?
> 1. Regular cardio to warm up and maintain blood flow to the muscles.
> 2. Weight lifting to keep the muscles strengthened.
> 3. Proper stetching to maintain muscular elasticity
> 4. Abdominal, hip, and lumbar conditioning, especially Pilates based, to keep those core muscles strengthened for high kicking.


increases the risk that they think that they can kick high without risk of injury. I don't have a problem with risk taking but I do believe we need to recognize what the risks are and properly take them into consideration.

Jeff


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## Makalakumu (Apr 22, 2005)

We do a lot of kicking TSD, but it is very different then a lot of other arts kicking.  We do not do alot of the acrobatic stuff and our focus on kicking is probably 50% mid range, 25% low, and 25% high.  Another difference, is our focus on proper technique.  Hwang Kee lays this out very specifically in his books, and I was taught kicking technique so specifically, that my teacher would correct my form down to the inch.  

With that being said, I truly believe that one can focus on developing kicks, even high kicks, if one focuses on developing good technique.  Doc and Dr. Dave are absolutely right, kicks that bend and break the anatomical integrity of the body are damaging...yet this shouldn't come as a surprise because many other sports have damaging ways of doing things, and better ways of doing things.

With that being said, hook kick is a riskier kick to perform and it, in my opinion, is one of those kicks that can be harder on the hips when done high.  Yet, hook kick can be done at a low range to strike the knee or to hook behind it.  It can also be done at mid-range to strike the solar plexes with the heel or to perform kanai sutae (scissors take down).  My teacher can turn what looks like a spinning side kick into a mid level spinning hook kanai sutae that ends with take down that literally slams your back on the ground.

We still practice a high hook kick and a high spinning hook, though...


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 22, 2005)

Not everybody is cut out to do high kicks. There are many members of our Tae kwon Do organization that physically cannot do them well, and we do not press them to try. They stick with what they can do and perfect those techniques.
Having said that, I agree that it is important to practice these high kicks in a way that maintains the body's natural hip-leg-foot-torso alignment. For instance, kicking without pivoting the foot? Very bad.
I think a technique like a spinning hook or back roundhouse should be done to minimize the forward torquing of the hip and leg. Let me explain. Some people perform a hook kick/back roundhouse from a forward stance, torquing this huge angle around with their hip and leg, almost like a question mark. I think it is unnatural and very hard on the hips, even if it does work on range of motion.
I think it is better to begin this technique in a sideways stance, either sliding into performing the technique (like a sliding side kick but doing a back roundhouse), or using it as a spin kick. I think either way will minimize stress on having to torque the hips all that distance around. Even I have trouble executing a hook kick from a front stance. It is just too difficult to get that much torque from a front stance.
Another example: Students who want to be able to do a vertical side kick to the ceiling. Talk about a useless technique!


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## Makalakumu (Apr 22, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Not everybody is cut out to do high kicks. There are many members of our Tae kwon Do organization that physically cannot do them well, and we do not press them to try. They stick with what they can do and perfect those techniques.
> Having said that, I agree that it is important to practice these high kicks in a way that maintains the body's natural hip-leg-foot-torso alignment. For instance, kicking without pivoting the foot? Very bad.
> I think a technique like a spinning hook or back roundhouse should be done to minimize the forward torquing of the hip and leg. Let me explain. Some people perform a hook kick/back roundhouse from a forward stance, torquing this huge angle around with their hip and leg, almost like a question mark. I think it is unnatural and very hard on the hips, even if it does work on range of motion.
> I think it is better to begin this technique in a sideways stance, either sliding into performing the technique (like a sliding side kick but doing a back roundhouse), or using it as a spin kick. I think either way will minimize stress on having to torque the hips all that distance around. Even I have trouble executing a hook kick from a front stance. It is just too difficult to get that much torque from a front stance.
> Another example: Students who want to be able to do a vertical side kick to the ceiling. Talk about a useless technique!



There is also something to be said about over doing it.  I've been to a couple of TKD dojangs where we did hyung the first ten minutes to warm up and by the end of class, we literally did a 1000(s) of kicks.  Some TKD dojangs are 90% kicking and I think that this information is really important for those tae kwon doins to know.  

I think that if one spends time training hands, feet, locks, throws, falls and grappling one will minimize the repetitive joint damage.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 22, 2005)

Very true. It is possible to over train and overuse. That's one of the reasons why body builders vary their workouts, exercising different muscle groups on different days.
If you spend all your time on one set of techniques, you will undoubtably become very good at them, but in the process experience fatigue to those area. I think it's better, and my instructor has recommended, varying your workouts daily. Some days emphasize basics, some basic kicking, some form, some free fighting, some special drills. Aside from giving your various muscle groups a chance to rest, you also minimize burnout. How exciting is it to practice the same things every day? And the less interested you are in practicing a routine, the less likely you are to pay attention and more likely to injure yourself.


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## Andy Cap (Apr 24, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Very true. It is possible to over train and overuse. That's one of the reasons why body builders vary their workouts, exercising different muscle groups on different days.
> If you spend all your time on one set of techniques, you will undoubtably become very good at them, but in the process experience fatigue to those area. I think it's better, and my instructor has recommended, varying your workouts daily. Some days emphasize basics, some basic kicking, some form, some free fighting, some special drills. Aside from giving your various muscle groups a chance to rest, you also minimize burnout. How exciting is it to practice the same things every day? And the less interested you are in practicing a routine, the less likely you are to pay attention and more likely to injure yourself.


I agree.  Also I would liek to add that you can keep working on the same thing, but try other approaches.  For example if you want to work on your side kick you may consider the many different aspects of the kick - the abdominal muscle needed to throw a better kicks, the flexibility needed, the form...  You could work on a side kick for days without even throwing the kick.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 25, 2005)

Absolutely. There have been times when I stretched and exercised specific muscle groups to improve a particular technique. For example, I will do side kick stretches, hip abductor/adductor training, seated stretching with legs apart, and abdominal exercises to improve my side kick, while not actually throwing the kick itself. Just conditioning myself for it. One of the reasons why I have not experienced high kick problems.


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## Basicman (Apr 26, 2005)

I'm sorry, but I disagree here.  I think there is nothing wrong with practicing high kicks in moderation.  I think where people can run into problems is when they try to "force" their body to do an action it is either not ready for or they physically should not be doing.  If this was such a chronic problem, articles would be popping in medical journals and since the martial arts have been around for thousands of years, I am sure that would be more evidence.  

Everybody's body mechanics are different, a mistake that many people make is that they think there is only one way to execute a side kick, when it is actually important for them to execute that sidekick the way their body allows them to.

Also static stretching is only going to have a limited effect on your kicking ability.  Dynamic stretching is what makes a difference.  Actually, by gradually increasing your range of motion, you can elimiate stretching.  As long as you stay within your normal range of motion, there is no need to stretch.

Finally Doc, I disagree with you about gymnast as they get older get out of doing gymnastics and having or preventing physical problems.  Most gymnast leave because of cost of coaching, and training.  It is quite expensive and unless you have a sponsor of some sort, it is near to impossible.  Also most gymnast want to go out and live life and start families, I thnik that is why most leave the sport and enter coaching.

Train hard.

John


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## Doc (Apr 26, 2005)

Basicman said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I disagree here.  I think there is nothing wrong with practicing high kicks in moderation.  I think where people can run into problems is when they try to "force" their body to do an action it is either not ready for or they physically should not be doing.  If this was such a chronic problem, articles would be popping in medical journals and since the martial arts have been around for thousands of years, I am sure that would be more evidence.


The evidence is everywhere, but you have to look. Did you know all of those well known people had double hip replacement surgery? What are the odds of the average guy in his lifetime knowing more than one, if that, who had to have both of their hips replaced.

What you fail to realize is martial artist who engage in these practices are such a small part of the population, they fall off the statistical scale as being virtually non-existent. Even then most injuries are attributed to blunt force trauma or hyper-extensions and the medical implications of some of these kicks has never been fully researched by the medical community at large.


> Everybody's body mechanics are different, a mistake that many people make is that they think there is only one way to execute a side kick, when it is actually important for them to execute that sidekick the way their body allows them to.


No, the mistake you make is your own misunderstanding of body mechanics. Everyone has the same body mechanics, but the extent they may utilize them is different due to variable factors in the dynamics of human physical geometry. 

Some will always be capable of doing more or less depending on these factors. An eight cyclinder engine that has a larger displacement theoretically produces more horsepower, than the same design with less displacement, but the physics that propel them both are identical. The variables in the human body have to do with density and elasticity of tissue, but unless you're an alien, you're built the same as everyone else and mechanically move the same more or less.

One of the great misunderstandings over the last several decades is the "find your own way" philosophy that has fooled people into believing that body mechanics do not matter as long as you achieve the results you seek.  The body doesn't see it that way, and eventually if pushed, will break.


> Also static stretching is only going to have a limited effect on your kicking ability.  Dynamic stretching is what makes a difference.  Actually, by gradually increasing your range of motion, you can elimiate stretching.  As long as you stay within your normal range of motion, there is no need to stretch.


I'm afraid that is outside my understanding. Medically one stretches to increase their range of motion, and what they achieve becomes "normal," even if it damages the body. I suggest that the kicks Chuck Norris performed were "normal" for him, but they ultimately resulted in body damage. So, I guess normal is a variable that shouldn't be determined by the individual's desire, but and understanding of body mechanic limitations. There are some things you simply should not do.


> Finally Doc, I disagree with you about gymnast as they get older get out of doing gymnastics and having or preventing physical problems.  Most gymnast leave because of cost of coaching, and training.  It is quite expensive and unless you have a sponsor of some sort, it is near to impossible.  Also most gymnast want to go out and live life and start families, I thnik that is why most leave the sport and enter coaching.
> John


You think? They stop because they are no longer viable in an activity that places significant demands on them that they no longer can sustain physically or monetarily. You mean there isn't at least one guy who is sufficiently well off that he could afford to continue his gymnastics well into his twenties and thirties and go to the olympics because he loves it? You mean no one would sponsor this guy who has all of this expereince and skill that he could use to beat those upstart youngsters just starting out?

And while we're at it, why do they need coaching after they have become accomplished? Why can't they just keep doing what they already know? Is it possible someone has to continually refine their body mechanics? Martial artist could learn a great lesson from gymnastics. I have never seen so many "experts" in structural integrity and body mechanics.


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## Basicman (Apr 26, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> The evidence is everywhere, but you have to look. Did you know all of those well known people had double hip replacement surgery? What are the odds of the average guy in his lifetime knowing more than one, if that, who had to have both of their hips replaced.



Actually I know quite a few average people with double hip replacements.  I am a RN and Paramedic.  Hip replacements can and do happen to people with a genetic predisposition.  Sorry I don't buy the theory that because you see some high profile people, that most Martial Artists are going to develop hip problems.  That's like saying most runners are going to destroy their legs from running.  I feel the medical evidence you are presenting is quite weak.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> No, the mistake you make is your own misunderstanding of body mechanics. Everyone has the same body mechanics, but the extent they may utilize them is different due to variable factors in the dynamics of human physical geometry.
> 
> Some will always be capable of doing more or less depending on these factors. An eight cyclinder engine that has a larger displacement theoretically produces more horsepower, than the same design with less displacement, but the physics that propel them both are identical. The variables in the human body have to do with density and elasticity of tissue, but unless you're an alien, you're built the same as everyone else and mechanically move the same more or less.
> 
> One of the great misunderstandings over the last several decades is the "find your own way" philosophy that has fooled people into believing that body mechanics do not matter as long as you achieve the results you seek. The body doesn't see it that way, and eventually if pushed, will break.



Doc, I disagree again here with you.  I may be using the incorrect terms.  I agree that physics are physics.  But alter the length and strength of the bone, tendon, joint, what have you, it is going to change how someone can move or whether or not I can perform a technique.  IMHO, that is what I find wrong with TMA.  I think the stances are entirely uncomfortable and have been made for a smaller person.  I am sorry, but I think that a person needs to alter their technique to suit them.


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## dubljay (Apr 26, 2005)

Basicman said:
			
		

> Actually I know quite a few average people with double hip replacements. I am a RN and Paramedic. Hip replacements can and do happen to people with a genetic predisposition. Sorry I don't buy the theory that because you see some high profile people, that most Martial Artists are going to develop hip problems. That's like saying most runners are going to destroy their legs from running. I feel the medical evidence you are presenting is quite weak.


  You bring up running... well this is something I have done, and let me tell you from _personal experience_ that I did destroy my knees as a result from distance running. The cause? IMPROPER TECHNIQUE. I didn't run using proper body alignment and mechanics... as a result I have chronic knee pain and stiffness. My coach warned me that I wasn't running right and it would cost me, but I couldn't change my running form.  And just so we are clear about my coach's qualifications on this topic, she missed olympic trials due to injury, so she knows about running and the mechanics there of.





> Doc, I disagree again here with you. I may be using the incorrect terms. I agree that physics are physics. But alter the length and strength of the bone, tendon, joint, what have you, it is going to change how someone can move or whether or not I can perform a technique. IMHO, that is what I find wrong with TMA. I think the stances are entirely uncomfortable and have been made for a smaller person. I am sorry, but I think that a person needs to alter their technique to suit them.


 So you are saying that there is enough variance from person to person on their joints that inhibit "normal" ranges of motion? I find this unlikely. Excluding deformities and injuries the range of motion for a knee, hip, shoulder, ect is pretty much the same for each person. If they weren't how would doctors know what is right or wrong when examining a patients x-rays for example?


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## Andy Cap (Apr 26, 2005)

> The evidence is everywhere, but you have to look. Did you know all of those well known people had double hip replacement surgery? What are the odds of the average guy in his lifetime knowing more than one, if that, who had to have both of their hips replaced.


 My father had both hips replaced twice.  My brother in laws mother had both of hers done.  Neither was a martial artist - genetics or hard living in general.



> No, the mistake you make is your own misunderstanding of body mechanics. Everyone has the same body mechanics, but the extent they may utilize them is different due to variable factors in the dynamics of human physical geometry.


 This is very true.  In fact Asians have a different pelvic structure/geometry than Euro/Americans.  



 I do say though that proper technique will win out here.  Of course just as it is with anything you de repetitively, eventually high kicking will take a toll, but so would low kicking, or bicyle riding, or anything else that require repetittion.  We wear out.


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## Doc (Apr 26, 2005)

Basicman said:
			
		

> Actually I know quite a few average people with double hip replacements.  I am a RN and Paramedic.  Hip replacements can and do happen to people with a genetic predisposition.  Sorry I don't buy the theory that because you see some high profile people, that most Martial Artists are going to develop hip problems.  That's like saying most runners are going to destroy their legs from running.  I feel the medical evidence you are presenting is quite weak.


I have two paramedics, four M.D.'s, and three D.C.'s as students, and I wasn't presenting evidence. To the contrary I was saying simply because you haven't heard of it, dosen't make it a nonexsistent problem. Those who have a predisposition to injury are even more in need of proper body mechanics to insure they don't elevate their chance of injury. And yes, runners will destroy their needs if they run imroperly. Your statement suggests that "runners" and "kickers" both automatically know how to do it properly. The mere fact we are having this debate about the subject suggests their are wide misunderstandings regarding the topic.


> Doc, I disagree again here with you.  I may be using the incorrect terms.  I agree that physics are physics.  But alter the length and strength of the bone, tendon, joint, what have you, it is going to change how someone can move or whether or not I can perform a technique.  IMHO, that is what I find wrong with TMA.  I think the stances are entirely uncomfortable and have been made for a smaller person.  I am sorry, but I think that a person needs to alter their technique to suit them.


Sorry, but you seemed to have changed the subject. Body mechanics don't change and I addressed this point in my previous post, and allowed for inherent differences that do not alter the underlying fact we are all made the same. There will always be things that some will be able to do better than others, but the important thing is to realize there are some things no one should do improperly, and that list includes things that you CAN do but shouldn't be doing at all.

Other physical movement, including stances, may be anatomically adjusted to individuals, but they still must suit the body anatomically correct to avoid injury. Tall people may have a long stance, as an example, but someone shorter will have their stance shorter, but ultimately their feet should all have the same relationship to their body and the weight distribution should be the same if they are both to be correct. Sounds to me like you have some underlying issues with your own training and have persoanlized this exchange when you say "The stances are too uncomfortable." What stances are you talking about, and how did we get to what's uncomfortable for you over the topic of kicking properly?  That was not the intent of the discussion.


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## F0E (Apr 29, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This post was originally posted in the Kenpo Forum. Dr. Dave gave permission for it to be shared. "We are designed to step high and reach forward with a foot, then pull the ground we gained to us (relatively)...the gluteus max, hamstrings, sacrospinalis, contralateral adductors, and some buncha other muscles come into maximum play with actions similar to walking up a hill, or stairs, or reaching far forward in a sprinting stride, then recoiling the leg back to the body to take the ground you covered in the forward stretch phase of the running gait. A front kick is akin to placing your foot on the hillside up in front of your thorax, then changing your mind about going uphill and bringing it back down again. For someone who takes many high steps covering lots of ground (i,.e., hikers, etc.), the flexibility is there to allow this motion to normalize within the complexities of the hip joint and pelvic nutation/counter-nutation rhythems."?


  Alright, leaning to do high kicks that are side based is that more natural?
 What if you have the leg supporting you bent does that effect the dynamics of kicking, I guess were lots of changes in the way the kick was thrown attempted to find the least stressful one. How much of a roll does flexiblity play, if any?

  really no prevention other than a life style change, sweet


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## Doc (May 5, 2005)

F0E said:
			
		

> Alright, leaning to do high kicks that are side based is that more natural?
> What if you have the leg supporting you bent does that effect the dynamics of kicking, I guess were lots of changes in the way the kick was thrown attempted to find the least stressful one. How much of a roll does flexiblity play, if any?


Simple. Look at the previous posts and responses. Make a decision if you want to do it or not, or seek in-person professional help with a medical professional for assistance.


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## Novitiate (Jun 20, 2005)

[font=&quot]This thread is of utmost interest to me as I started in Wing Chun Kung Fu.  My instructor claimed that all kicks above the knee were useless.  My father also being am ex Wing Chun practitioner  claimed it was an "old man's art" i.e. it was easy on the body.  I now find myself as a Tang Soo Do practitioner and find myself revisiting this issue.  

 As a teenager I was diagnosed with juvenile Arthritis (oshgood schlaters [spelling?]).  Frankly I have rarely know such pain since then.   I have felt  fine during my training (3 years) and would generally say that my legs feel stronger and more limber.

 I have heard that the micro fractures in martial practitioners actually strengthen the bone.  And I think the stretching is good for the body (take yoga as an example)

 my favorite seated position my whole life has been a variation on the classic lotus.  Sitting at the computer I feel more soreness sitting like this than after a martial arts class.  being ignorant of osteo health I would like some physician input on this issue.  it seems to me that I have met few martial artists with serious hip problems, though most perhaps drop out before the onset.  I have seen many Jujitsu and Judo practitioners hobbled from their art...
 is this also true of high kicking?

 any non-anecdotal evidence would be appreciated[/font]


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## bignick (Jun 20, 2005)

I've been drifting in and out of this and related threads so forgive me if I missed this if it has been brought up before. But as far as the high profile martial artists and the damage done to their body...I'm sure these people, like Chuck Norris or Bill Wallace had some pretty severe conditioning routines in their day. They were extremely well conditioned and I'm sure it wasn't entirely from time spent strictly in the dojo/dojang. I'm sure they had intensive cardio/weightlifting/etc routines as well and I was wondering what some other people's thoughts were as to how this affected them as well. Although I can certainly see where kicking high can cause hip problems, I would think that there other workout habits contributed as well. It can be kind of a scary thought, that these people were so good but still ended up injured from their training, but I doubt the average person puts themselves through the same sorts of strain that they did.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 29, 2005)

The same can be said of throwing a ball overhand or running on a track.  I think the constant repetitive motions involved do as much or more to injure the body as the technique itself.  One of the things I like about the martial arts is that one can move the body in all sorts of ways and does not need to hyperfocus on one thing.  In my opinion, a good work out routine and good training focuses on all sorts of ways to move.


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## Satelite (Jul 1, 2005)

Ok you guys have got me concerned.
But what about the people who are extremely conditioned, who do hip strengthening often. Who give body enough rest to heal. I heard that dancers (and those guys have hip replacements more than everybody else), can remain safe, if they are careful.


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## Marginal (Aug 17, 2005)

F0E said:
			
		

> Alright, leaning to do high kicks that are side based is that more natural?
> What if you have the leg supporting you bent does that effect the dynamics of kicking, I guess were lots of changes in the way the kick was thrown attempted to find the least stressful one. How much of a roll does flexiblity play, if any?


Judging by what's been said so far, it would seem that a side kick thrown essentially like a back kick would fall into the natural range of motion. (Not really doing anything different there than when you're doing a front kick in terms of leg alignment.) If I'm mistaken on this, nothing's been posted do far to contradict that conclusion based on the evidence presented so far.


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## Doc (Aug 17, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Judging by what's been said so far, it would seem that a side kick thrown essentially like a back kick would fall into the natural range of motion. (Not really doing anything different there than when you're doing a front kick in terms of leg alignment.) If I'm mistaken on this, nothing's been posted do far to contradict that conclusion based on the evidence presented so far.


Predicated on specific body mechanics and teaching methodology, you would be correct sir.


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 17, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Predicated on specific body mechanics and teaching methodology, you would be correct sir.


Doc, what's your opinion about stretching and kicking  joint damage. Does stretching limit injury or does it increase injury by allowing more free movement of the joint.  I'm convinced that good mechanics of kicks will limit injuries. (Exactly what good mechanics are is another question.) I also can be convinced that proper stretching will limit muscle injuries. I'm not conviced that stretching limits either joint or ligamentous injuries.

Thanks,

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 17, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Simple. Look at the previous posts and responses. Make a decision if you want to do it or not, or seek in-person professional help with a medical professional for assistance.


The problem here is that most of us don't have the information available to accurately answer these questions.  I find that physicians tend to recommend too many restrictions. It's harder to be sued for recommending that a non essential activity be avoided than to be sued for advising a patient to try an activity. Even most sports oriented physicians and therapists know little about sports outside of the football, soccer, basketball, aseball group.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Doc (Aug 17, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Doc, what's your opinion about stretching and kicking  joint damage. Does stretching limit injury or does it increase injury by allowing more free movement of the joint.  I'm convinced that good mechanics of kicks will limit injuries. (Exactly what good mechanics are is another question.) I also can be convinced that proper stretching will limit muscle injuries. I'm not conviced that stretching limits either joint or ligamentous injuries.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff


As you know sir, controlled stretching of all types is good for the body, especially as we age. I have long been a strong advocate in this area, and you are absolutely correct in your assertion that "good mechanics will limit ... injuries." You are equally correct regarding the effect on joint injuries, where stretching in and of itself only affects the range of movement, but does not protect the joint from associated long term misuse injury. These injuries are related to your third observation and assertion. Few seem to actually know what constitutes "good mechanics." Thus we have people with no background knowledge or education teaching others to stretch, kick, punch, and move forcefully damaging their bodies over time. But stretching in an of itself will not damage joints in general because the muscle and supporting soft ligament tissue will sustain damage first, protecting the joint from injury. Only in extreme violent circumstances over extended periods of time, or short suddent violent hyperextensions seen in inertia driven accidents will both occur simultaneously. If these "instructors" were pro coaches, they would be fired because of poor performance of their "students," and/or excessive injuries indicating poor mechanics. Historically, the martial arts has always beed taught through what I term "mimic modeling." A teacher shows what to do, and the student attempts to "copy" the movement. That means the art is being taught aesthetically, without the benefit of a true understanding of, or regard for, subcutaneous interaction of its architecture.

Recently one of my 105 course students (green) approached me about hitting a heavy bag. I don't allow this activity because it breeds poor mechanics in an effor to "hit hard," and is unecessary in the way we train. I told him he was capable of hitting quite hard and really had no need of that kind of training. At one time or another, everyone has dropped someone in our curriculum with minimum effort as a course of our training method. Still he insisted he wanted to test it. So with my blessing he was off to a boxing gym to punch a heavy bag. Acouple of weeks later he came into the school with a huge grin on his face. He said, he had gone to the gym and he "had no idea he could hit so hard." He told me how he rocked the bag with no discomfort or injury, and that it actually drew the attention of others watching him pounding the heavy bag, Once again he said, "I never knew I could it so hard." I said, "I did." and walked away. 

The sport approach to martial arts in this country and others, is built around youth, its accompaning muscle mass, and blunt force trauma execution training. True martial science is a higher level of understanding, teaching, and execution with minimal injuries short or long term sir. You are correct on every count.


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