# Hughes/gracie....It ends in the first round



## Shogun (May 27, 2006)

Hughes defeats gracie via referee stoppage (ground and pound) in the first round


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## rompida (May 27, 2006)

It was ugly....  I was rather disappointed in Royce.  Matt Hughes dominated him on his own turf - grappling.  I still can't understand how Royce's elbow didn't dislocate.  I expected Matt to win, I just didn't think he would do it so quickly and easily.  

sigh.....


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## Kempojujutsu (May 27, 2006)

Didn't get to see it yet. Friend taped it and will watch it tomorrow. Glad to hear Hughes won.


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## Lisa (May 27, 2006)

rompida said:
			
		

> It was ugly....  I was rather disappointed in Royce.  Matt Hughes dominated him on his own turf - grappling.  I still can't understand how Royce's elbow didn't dislocate.  I expected Matt to win, I just didn't think he would do it so quickly and easily.
> 
> sigh.....



Yeah, I thought his arm was gonna break too.  Don't think he would have tapped, no matter what, until the thing actually did break.

Short fight but good none the less.  Glad Matt won.


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## MJS (May 27, 2006)

rompida said:
			
		

> It was ugly.... I was rather disappointed in Royce. Matt Hughes dominated him on his own turf - grappling. I still can't understand how Royce's elbow didn't dislocate. I expected Matt to win, I just didn't think he would do it so quickly and easily.
> 
> sigh.....


 
I too, thought for sure the elbow would dislocate.  Too hard to tell if it was seriously injured, as Royce didn't show much concern.  

Looked like Royce was trying to escape rear mount, but Matt certainly had the upper hand.  I was hoping that it would've went a bit longer.

It'll be interesting to see if Royce makes another comeback in the future.

Mike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 27, 2006)

Sad Matt won. Was rooting for Royce, as an old instructor and acquaintence. What got me is that Royce clearly didn't have his head in the game. Not that it would have changed the outcome, but we used to START on Royce's back with hooks in, and he'd shake us like a slipper snake. 

It was sad for me to see Helio have to watch his legacy take a beating in a sport he started. If it weren't for Helio first, then Royce, we would never have even known who Matt Hughes was; he'd be off playing baseball or something, rather than fighting in MMA events.  The lutra livre guys finally did it, I guess.

Regards,

Dave


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## MJS (May 28, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> It was sad for me to see Helio have to watch his legacy take a beating in a sport he started.


 
Yes, I noticed that too.  It was obvious the man was hurting.




> If it weren't for Helio first, then Royce, we would never have even known who Matt Hughes was;


 
Agreed.  The family certainly changed the Martial Arts world.

Mike


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## Andrew Green (May 28, 2006)

Royce seemed way to confident in his ground skills, seemed like he was giving stuff up thinking he'd be able to get out cause ground is his thing and completely underestimated Matt's ground skills.

Still, he gave a decent fight, especially considering Matt's the Champion and Royce hasn't faced that level of competition in a while...


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## Andrew Green (May 28, 2006)

Rumor floating around on pay is that Royce picked up 1.3 million tonight, about time MMA fighters started pulling in big money, boxers shouldn't get all the perks 

Bet Hughes didn't get a quarter of that though...

Edit:


> JF: What are you guys making for this fight?
> MH: Royce is making $1.3 million. I'm getting nowhere close to that.


http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-ufc-hughes,0,2743126.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines


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## mantis (May 28, 2006)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Hughes defeats gracie via referee stoppage (ground and pound) in the first round


oh awesome!


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## MardiGras Bandit (May 28, 2006)

I heard the money rumor, but I'm pretty sure Royce only got $250,000.

Props to Royce for stepping up, but we all knew it would turn out this way. Hughes beat Royce with Jiu-Jitsu and like Royce said in the pre-fight, that is his best legacy (not that I believe he wouldn't have prefered a win).

How do you see this fight affecting Royce's legacy? I say it tarnishes it, but not too badly.


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## Andrew Green (May 28, 2006)

Money rumor started with Matt Hughes, I'm guessing he'd know...


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2006)

I was very happy with the turnout. The game has changed so much that you have to have as good of a standup game as a ground game, and you have to train with multiple methods. The Gracie method, although good and what started the UFC, won't cut it by itself anymore. I have been watching what info has been available for the fight prep, and I think that it is clear that Royce clearly underestimated that.


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> How do you see this fight affecting Royce's legacy? I say it tarnishes it, but not too badly.


 
I would say that it does tarnish things for them quite a bit when you look at the entire picture.

Back in the early 90's the overwhelming number of martial artists weren't prepared for the groundfighting game. I didn't realize how true that was until the first few UFC's. This blew my mind because I was lucky enough to be trained in wrestling, and to work with people who were grapplers back then. I always considered grappling as a part of the fighting picture, so I was suprised to see the overwhelming number of people not trained well on the ground in the first few UFCs.

Well, the Gracies used this fact as a marketing ploy, in my opinion. They had it out there that they would take on all challangers, and that no one could beat their family style. What they didn't realize or take into account was that there were back then as today grappling methods from all over the world. Back then, there were proficient grapplers out there who just didn't get the respect and exposure. 

Yet, despite this, it was put out there that Gracie jujitsu was an end all be all. So much so that the US army changed their military combatives to reflect a Gracie BJJ based program. It got respect and has been looked at to this day as an end all be all for many people.

That is, until this fight. The fact is, grappling skills have always been out there as an important part of the fighting picture. There are multiple circles out there who are very skilled at it. You'll find some of the best wrestling skills simply in freestyle and roman greco wrestling circles, in my opinion. And although I have a lot of respect for the Gracie legacy, grappling skills are not all confined and dominated by any one family method. This fight proved this fact, and will be a reality check for many.

So, in that sense, this fight does tarnish them a bit. It wouldn't be that way, I don't think, if it wasn't for the marketing tactics and bolstering that has been done in the past.

Paul


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## Andrew Green (May 28, 2006)

Everyone in the UFC fights the way they do because of the Gracies, they are legends and their rep has not been tarnished a bit.  Even in Japan, people where doing this stuff already, when the Gracies showed up they had to rewrite a lot of their "books" 

Royce is a legend, and a incredible fighter.  He's not a natural athlete, he's just a average guy that worked hard, and changed the way people fight.  Nothing that happened tonight, or in any other fight he might take will change that.


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## matt.m (May 28, 2006)

Matt beat him, that was apparant.  What points need to be brought forward are that:
He gave up an age difference, yes that is a factor
He maybe knew in the back of his mind that he is now 13 yrs. older and the sport has evolved.
You have to give huge credit to Gracie, he stepped up to the challenge and got in the ring.

I met Rickson, Royce, and Helio in Culver City once.  I had just graduated from Marine boot camp.  My dads friend Clay took me to meet them.

Clay was studying under them at the time.  It was September 1993.


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## kenpohack (May 28, 2006)

Gracie was great in the early nineties. He's still a great martial artist. The fact of the matter is that the MMA game has drastically changed since 1993. The first UFC saw average martial artists, weekend warriors, and Royce compete. Subsequent UFCs sported slightly better competition, but not anywhere near the caliber of competitors in today's MMA game. Today, MMA competition attracts gifted athletes who train in a variety of disciplines, including jujitsu and other forms of grappling. Royce's technical proficiency cannot overcome the skill of extraordinary athletes with multiple disciplines under their belts. It's the equivalent of a talented high school football star trying to compete with Pro Bowl players.


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## Shogun (May 28, 2006)

I've watched it over and over again....My conclusion....

Matt Hughes Pinned Royce. Yeah. as in wrestling. He took his back, with both hooks, beautifully flattened him out. but royce was still squirming to get out. at no time did he lose conciousness. at no time did he tap. obviosuly the rules say if a fighter is not intelligently defending himself then the referee stops the fight. well, does that apply to pin techniques when the fighter CANT defend themselves in a reasonable time?
what if matt were to cradle gracie?

anyway, Kudos to matt...great technique. actually, it looked as if gracie had the advantage on his feet and hughes did on the ground....how ironic.

cheers to Gracie for fighting. he admitted this was simply a personal challenge beforehand.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 28, 2006)

I do not think his legacy is tarnished by this loss.  However, we are seeing the evolution of the mixed martial arts world in that you have to be a very complete fighter to even have a chance now a days.

Hughes won because he is the most complete fighter in the UFC right now.  Next month or sooner or later someone else will come along with better skills and also a little more hungry and that person will be the best and so on and so on.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 28, 2006)

You might be able to view it hear for a bit. http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=1zmgbFTe2Iw&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//sjl-static8.sjl.youtube.com/vi/1zmgbFTe2Iw/2.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskJI_p-TVnHH-XOKu7LzYtwo 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## green meanie (May 28, 2006)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I've watched it over and over again....My conclusion....
> 
> Matt Hughes Pinned Royce. Yeah. as in wrestling. He took his back, with both hooks, beautifully flattened him out. but royce was still squirming to get out. at no time did he lose conciousness. at no time did he tap. obviosuly the rules say if a fighter is not intelligently defending himself then the referee stops the fight. well, does that apply to pin techniques when the fighter CANT defend themselves in a reasonable time?


 
I gotta disagree. Royce went belly down with over a minute left on the clock. If he had an escape in him there was enough time left for him to execute it. He couldn't get out and by the time the fight was stopped he was at a point where he appeared to be making no attempt to escape and was having a very hard time protecting himself. It was a mistake to belly down and he paid for it.


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## Kensai (May 28, 2006)

Damn!!! Royce was pretty humbled there from what I could see. I think his legend will remain intact, but I don't think I'd be particularly pleased if I was Royce... It was almost too easy. Taking nothing away from Matt Hughes mind you...


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## Makalakumu (May 28, 2006)

I didn't see the fight, I wanted too, but I didn't want to spend the money on something that I knew would end like this.

I am just an average guy.  I've never been a natural athlete, however, I work pretty hard to do what I do.  Royce always struck me as someone whose skills I could at least approach if I worked really really hard.  

Matt, on the other hand, is your typicaly professional athlete.  When someone like that works as hard as "a gracie" then you are bound to see something extraordinary.  I think that if a fighter like Matt would have walked into the UFC of old, he would have utterly demolished the competition.  

The UFC is now drawing the combination of extraordinary skill, hard work, and genetics.  I don't think it will ever be an arena where an average guy can even compete no matter how hard he works.


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## Kwiter (May 28, 2006)

For those that missed the fight I see it's now on youtube.com so anyone can see it. You might have to register I'm not 100% sure, alot of Crazy videos on there besides UFC 60 main event.


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## evenflow1121 (May 28, 2006)

It was a very good fight and well worth the $39.95 I will tell you though that the two fights after the main event (which are always taped because they happen before the card) were amazing as well.  

I don't know if it tarnishes his legacy, he may have been 11-0-0 in the UFC, which actually I thought was incorrect because if I remember correctly he drawed to Shamrock the second time around, but he has been defeated before.  Its a loss, I am sure he will come back up from it.  Matt is a well rounded fighter, and being well rounded is prob a lot more practical than being an expert in one particular discipline.  Though I love watching Royce especially the old school stuff because of how technical he is as a fighter, I cant say in my opinion that he is as well rounded a fighter as Matt Hughes.


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## Robert Lee (May 28, 2006)

After looking at royces training I would of thought he would have performed better. But then both haveing a chance to study what the other was doing give a plan. And Hughes was able to pull it off better. Shows still that a rounded game is much better today.  But you have to give both respect for getting in there and testing out there method


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## AceHBK (May 28, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Everyone in the UFC fights the way they do because of the Gracies, they are legends and their rep has not been tarnished a bit. Even in Japan, people where doing this stuff already, when the Gracies showed up they had to rewrite a lot of their "books"
> 
> Royce is a legend, and a incredible fighter. He's not a natural athlete, he's just a average guy that worked hard, and changed the way people fight. Nothing that happened tonight, or in any other fight he might take will change that.


 
Agreed!  Well put.

You could tell Royce was pissed if you saw the post fight interview on UFC's website.

Then Matt Huges says in post interview that Royce had no business even being in the ring with him...
wow


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## Andrew Green (May 28, 2006)

and here are those post fight inteviews:

Gracie - http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=MultiMedia.Detail&gid=2659

Hughes - http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=MultiMedia.Detail&gid=2660

Yes, Royce seemed rather annoyed...


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 28, 2006)

In the Torrance academy, before the UFC's, everytime there was a challenge match up this way, or a MMA event in Brazil that led to some distinct victory or defeat, the academy was always buzzing with chatter. 

After the fight with Kimo, and not being able to go on to the next round of eliminations, word got out that both the old man and Rickson were pissed. The Academy was in a hush for weeks, until enough word got out that Rickson, per the old man, would be taking over Royce's training. Normally, when Rickson came by the academy, he would get flocked by students who hadn't met him yet, and greeted like an old friend by those who had. For the next several weeks, when Rickson came in looking very business-like, nobody but the very old, very familiar, or very brave bothered to obstruct his path for pleasantries. 

As I watched Royce getting beaten in the back of the head with moves I would expect Rickson to use in a challenge match, I couldn't help but wonder where he was last night, and what was going through his head. I'll bet he's pissed, and that his guys are giving him a wide berth.

D.


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## AceHBK (May 28, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> In the Torrance academy, before the UFC's, everytime there was a challenge match up this way, or a MMA event in Brazil that led to some distinct victory or defeat, the academy was always buzzing with chatter.
> 
> After the fight with Kimo, and not being able to go on to the next round of eliminations, word got out that both the old man and Rickson were pissed. The Academy was in a hush for weeks, until enough word got out that Rickson, per the old man, would be taking over Royce's training. Normally, when Rickson came by the academy, he would get flocked by students who hadn't met him yet, and greeted like an old friend by those who had. For the next several weeks, when Rickson came in looking very business-like, nobody but the very old, very familiar, or very brave bothered to obstruct his path for pleasantries.
> 
> ...


 
You make me wonder that the fallout will be at the academy with Royce's loss.


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## grimfang (May 28, 2006)

Heres a full video of the fight.. Youtube keeps pulling them offline as fast as they can, but more copies keep popping up.... not sure how much longer this particular version will be online...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uart4xsN-4s&search=royce


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## James Clifton (May 28, 2006)

Guys,
       There is an old saying,Providing both fighters are equal in abilities & one is bigger(&stronger)than the other...a good big man will beat the smaller man.Look at Matt at the match & then look at Gracie !! Gracie was TOO skinny!! Just my opinion !
Jim


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## FearlessFreep (May 28, 2006)

_It was sad for me to see Helio have to watch his legacy take a beating in a sport he started. If it weren't for Helio first, then Royce, we would never have even known who Matt Hughes was; he'd be off playing baseball or something, rather than fighting in MMA events. The lutra livre guys finally did it, I guess._

"He who lives by he sword, dies by the sword"

Whenyou've built your legacy based on the 'superiority' of what you do, and someone beats you at it, then you fall as fast and as hard as you were once high and untouchable

I think what this means in any real sense is that...Matt Hughes beat Royce Gracie  That's it.  Matt fought better, Matt was probably a better fighter overall, and on this night, he was. Happens all the time.

I think what this means in a perceptive sense though is that BJ has become another TMA.   It is what it is.  Poweful, useful, good,  But, if you meet someone who can beat you at it, you're going to get beat.  And on any given day, that can happen.

Any 'technique' can dominate, when someone doesn't know what to expect, what moves are coming, how to react and how to fight it. When the opponent knows what you are going to do, now it just becomes a matter of who does it better.  No matter how good you are, if he is 'good enough' to stop you, you are in trouble, if you don't have a serious plan b


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## tshadowchaser (May 28, 2006)

Just saw a reply of the match. I think Matt did an excellent job of countering everything that Gracie did. His moves and counters where at the top of anyones game. He deserved the win.
I thought he broke Gracie's arm at one point but noticed that it was able to move after and did not look disformed ( this i am happy for, i would have hated to see an arm broken) I saw matt start to ty to chock Gracie out the it looked like he had an after thought and just beat the hell out of him.  Damn good match


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## Grenadier (May 28, 2006)

Royce Gracie, or for that matter, any fan of the BJJ folks, has nothing to be ashamed of.  Royce's legend is, and always well be, intact, as he and the other Gracies, certainly put Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu on the radar screen.  

Matt Hughes is at the top of his game, in his early 20's, very well physically fit, and one strong character.  Hughes is also well-rounded, and can both strike and grapple at will.  He really doesn't have any weaknesses that Gracie could exploit, and it's not surprising that the younger, stronger fellow is going to win in that situation.


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## Shogun (May 28, 2006)

actually, Matt Hughes is in his 30's. 33 or 34


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## hong kong fooey (May 28, 2006)

I saw that match it was amazing. I thought it was going to last longer but you never know. goos fight though


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## Sapper6 (May 28, 2006)

Shogun said:
			
		

> actually, Matt Hughes is in his 30's. 33 or 34


 
32


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## bluemtn (May 28, 2006)

I thought it was a good fight-  short, though!  I'm amazed Gracie's arm didn't break...  That had to have hurt a lot, though!


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## Shogun (May 28, 2006)

^what they said


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## Davejlaw (May 30, 2006)

Wow! I wanted Gracie to win, but thought Hughes would win. I did not expect Hughes to dominate him like that though! Gracie looked completely overmatched on the ground and his standup looked ridiculous. Did anyone think that he was going to take out Hughes with a kick or punch....please. I realize Gracie is much older and Hughes is a freak of a hybrid MMA fighter but Gracie didn't look like he watched the same film I did of Hughes before the fight. Or maybe he did and Hughes is soooo strong that there was nothing Royce could've done. Gracie looked humiliated after the fight and angry and his arm had to be hurt.


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## ARNIS (May 30, 2006)

Wow,
The sport of MMA has come full circle. 

My POV,

As far as the Gracie legend.  No harm done.  Royce will be back.  Royce sans Gi looked a little out of place (not that it would have changed the outcome). Personally, I think Royce should be a trainer of Champions at this phase in his career.

Matt Hughes.  Great job!! Total domination. Position then punch/pound. (especially hard to admit after being a Gracie Student for 11 years)  Props to God was a classy touch.  All the best to a most worthy and humble champion.

I would like to see the line that has probably developed at the doors of the Millitech (sp??) gym.


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## Davejlaw (May 30, 2006)

There is a bit of tarnish on Royce but not too much. There were enough asteriks in the fight (no gi for Royce, age difference, new rules for Royce, etc.) that Royce leaves with his legend still fairly intact. He does seem a lot more human now though, huh?


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## Andrew Green (May 30, 2006)

Hughes has dominated over top contenders in the same way and finished them just as fast.  Gracie, IMO, was over confident and picked the fight poorly.  He should have done a few warm up fights first, but I imagine 1.3 million is hard to say no too


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## Kreth (May 30, 2006)

I thought Hughes' post-fight interview was pretty cool. Very classy of him not to get a big head.


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## Davejlaw (May 30, 2006)

Hughes backed up all his trash talk so there was no more need for any more talk. No one is even talking about a rematch it was so one-sided.


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## Shogun (May 30, 2006)

His post-fight commentary is how Hughes normally is. all that trash talk beforehand was that UFC-hype buildup stuff they always do.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jun 3, 2006)

James Clifton said:
			
		

> Guys,
> There is an old saying,Providing both fighters are equal in abilities & one is bigger(&stronger)than the other...a good big man will beat the smaller man.


 
very true indeed, very very true!


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## Knarfan (Jun 4, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Royce seemed way to confident in his ground skills, seemed like he was giving stuff up thinking he'd be able to get out cause ground is his thing and completely underestimated Matt's ground skills.
> 
> Still, he gave a decent fight, especially considering Matt's the Champion and Royce hasn't faced that level of competition in a while...


 
Good points, he did seem overconfident on the ground. The first thing that I thought was wow, Royce looks really confused on the ground! I thought he would lose for many reasons but, I was suprised he gave up such dominating positions.


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## green meanie (Jun 4, 2006)

It's come full circle... for the moment anyway. The Gracie's gave the martial arts a bit of a kickstart and forced it to evolve... but failed to evolve with it. It's gotta be a bitter pill when your forced to take a dose of your own medicine.  :asian:


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## AceHBK (Jun 4, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> It's come full circle... for the moment anyway. *The Gracie's gave the martial arts a bit of a kickstart and forced it to evolve... but failed to evolve with it.* It's gotta be a bitter pill when your forced to take a dose of your own medicine. :asian:


 
So with that you are saying the Gracie system has not evolved with the times?  I cant agree with that point.  Yes Matt beat Royce but I won't say that with that, Matt beat a whole system.  It was a fight between fighters and not systems.  Do you think he could have easily beaten Rickson?


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## green meanie (Jun 5, 2006)

AceHBK said:
			
		

> So with that you are saying the Gracie system has not evolved with the times? I cant agree with that point. Yes Matt beat Royce but I won't say that with that, Matt beat a whole system. It was a fight between fighters and not systems. Do you think he could have easily beaten Rickson?


 
Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying. I think the Gracie's have fallen behind the times. When Royce was king of the world being in BJJ alone was enough; now it's just part of the MMA equation. Some have worked hard to fill in the missing pieces but most haven't. In their defense it proably isn't easy. It's one thing to be a BJJ practitioner and decide to cross-train. It's another to have this be your family's heritage and legacy.

Don't think I'm not a fan, I am. I've been in this from the beginning and I'm not trying to kick the guy when he's down. But you watch those old fights and look at where this is now and tell me that this isn't a whole different animal. I think Royce looked at Hughes like it was just another fight with a wrestler; thought he'd send him home like he did Severn and the rest. He underestimated him and he paid for it. :asian:


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## MJS (Jun 5, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying. I think the Gracie's have fallen behind the times. When Royce was king of the world being in BJJ alone was enough; now it's just part of the MMA equation. Some have worked hard to fill in the missing pieces but most haven't. In their defense it proably isn't easy. It's one thing to be a BJJ practitioner and decide to cross-train. It's another to have this be your family's heritage and legacy.
> 
> Don't think I'm not a fan, I am. I've been in this from the beginning and I'm not trying to kick the guy when he's down. But you watch those old fights and look at where this is now and tell me that this isn't a whole different animal. I think Royce looked at Hughes like it was just another fight with a wrestler; thought he'd send him home like he did Severn and the rest. He underestimated him and he paid for it. :asian:


 
Yes, I have to agree with this also!  I too, have been following the UFC since its birth, but it is very apparent, that these types of events have changed/evolved since the start.  We had one dimensional fighters in the ring, but now, everyone is getting as well rounded as they can.  I realize that Royce was said to have been doing some boxing, but I didn't see any punches or kicks thrown by him that really made me go "WOW!"  

Mike


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## AceHBK (Jun 5, 2006)

I see where you are coming from.
I can say yes, Royce failed to adapt with the times and changes that have occured in UFC.

Will i say that he represents all BJJ, no.
Just like any other style, someone will get beat but it doesnt prove that their STYLE is totally ineffective.  You are basically saying that their school in Torrence is doing nothing but teaching people an old/outdated way to fight.

As many people know, Royce was not the best in the family.  Now dont get me wrong im not a BJJ or JJ guy, I do TMA.  I think we all say that when someone gets beat we like to associate them with the style and criticizing that style instead of just that fighter.   If another Gracie say Rickson challenged Matt next and won, then that whole thing about style gets thrown out the window.

I will say that Royce was just plainly out JJ by Hughes.  Blame it on age, cockiness, strength, etc. I think we move too fast when we say that Matt proved a whole style has been defeated by him.


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## MJS (Jun 5, 2006)

AceHBK said:
			
		

> Will i say that he represents all BJJ, no.
> Just like any other style, someone will get beat but it doesnt prove that their STYLE is totally ineffective. You are basically saying that their school in Torrence is doing nothing but teaching people an old/outdated way to fight.


 
My appologies if I gave the wrong impression in my post. I will give credit where credit is due though, and IMHO, if it wasn't for the Gracies, I have a feeling that the MMA/NHB world wouldn't be where it is today, at least in the US anyway. They certainly opened many eyes to the importance of understanding the ground. 

As for saying that what they teaching is not effective, I think that people look at many arts and think that. Look at some posts on this forum, and we'll see many example of people bashing Bujinkan, Kenpo, CMA and the list can go on and on. My opinion and one that I stand by, is it all comes down to how someone trains. If we stop and think about it, it all goes back to being one dimensional. I have not been to the Torrance academy, but I'm sure they're teaching some effective ground methods. But I also think its important to cross train or cross reference other arts as well.




> I will say that Royce was just plainly out JJ by Hughes. Blame it on age, cockiness, strength, etc. I think we move too fast when we say that Matt proved a whole style has been defeated by him.


 
Very possible that if they fought again, there would be a different outcome. Its all a big chess game and who can out play who. BJJ guys have fought and won against other styles and they themselves have been beaten. I don't think its the style but the person and how they played the game that day.

Mike


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## Henderson (Jun 5, 2006)

Not meaning to sound like a broken record, but I'm gonna have to agree with this line of thinking.  

Gracie Jiu Jitsu did not get beat.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu did not get beat.
ROYCE got beat.  That is all.


Frank


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## swiftpete (Jun 5, 2006)

I've watched royce gracie from ufc 1 and have always been a fan. But he got totally done in this fight. When I saw him give up his back to hughes the first thing i thought was its like a mirror of one of gracies normal fights, I've seen him take peoples backs so many times. Ah well he got rumped deeply and I'm sure he's feeling pretty sheepish now but then hughes is obviously a great fighter and looks strong as an ox. 
I winced when i watched his arm get bent, I can't believe he didn't tap to that, shows he must be a pretty tough bloke cos a lot of people, myself included would have tapped like mad if their arm was being bent backwards!
I think he underestimated hughes and has paid for it big time.


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## Kreth (Jun 5, 2006)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> I winced when i watched his arm get bent, I can't believe he didn't tap to that, shows he must be a pretty tough bloke cos a lot of people, myself included would have tapped like mad if their arm was being bent backwards!


Agreed. I would've been playing a one-handed drum solo on the mat... :lol:


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## AceHBK (Jun 5, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Agreed. I would've been playing a one-handed drum solo on the mat... :lol:


 
lol!! U aint the only one.  I had to turn away from the tv screen.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 5, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> It's come full circle... for the moment anyway. The Gracie's gave the martial arts a bit of a kickstart and forced it to evolve... but failed to evolve with it. It's gotta be a bitter pill when your forced to take a dose of your own medicine.  :asian:



I'm gonna disagree slightly, I think there is more too it then that.

Royce never really came off as a natural athlete, that was part of the reason he was chosen to represent the style over Rickson.  

I think he has evloved, quite a bit, "technically" he may still be better on he ground then Matt, tough to say based of that.  But in terms of natural athletic ability Matt's got it far greater then Royce.  He's stronger, faster and more explosive, and those things go along way.

Royce proved that you could beat skilled opponents that where a lot bigger, and a lot stronger then you, and came across as a guy of average natural abilities that trained hard.  Now that there are elite athletes playing the game WITH top level skills, it's a whole new game.


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## Blotan Hunka (Jun 5, 2006)

Just goes to show that there will always be someone better than you out there.


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## tradrockrat (Jun 5, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> Not meaning to sound like a broken record, but I'm gonna have to agree with this line of thinking.
> 
> Gracie Jiu Jitsu did not get beat.
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu did not get beat.
> ...


 

Frank, you are so right, but the thing that never sat well with me about the Gracies was their insistance that Royce won those 11 fights cause their style was the best (not because he was fighting a yahoo with one boxing glove on...).  We all know that it's the fighter, not the system, but that wasn't what they were selling - they were selling the ultimate fighting style - the unbeatable one.  For that reason alone, I am glad of the outcone of this fight.  It brings reality to light.  Huges is the better fighter, and no amount of Gracie jiu jitsu would have helped Royce that night.  He was compeltely dominated in all aspects by Matt.  Matt was bigger, stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled.


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## Blotan Hunka (Jun 6, 2006)

http://www.teamstuds.com/v3N/hughesgracie.wmv


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