# 7th Dan Modern Arnis



## Dieter (Apr 1, 2003)

Hi everybody,

this is just a short information, that I just came back from my training-trip to Manila/Philippines.

I was fortunate enough to do private training with the following Modern Arnis Masters/Grandmasters from the different organisations:

Cristino Vasquez, 9. Dan,  MARPPIO (Modern Arnis Remy P. Presas International Organisation) before IMAF (International Modern Arnis Federation), Rene Tongson, 8. Dan (IMAF), Jerry de la Cruz, 8. Dan (Arnis Cuzada), Rodel Dagooc, 8. Dan, AAI (Arnis Association International), Vincente Sanchez, 8. Dan (Kali/Arnis Philippines) und Samuel Dulay, 6. Dan (IMAF-secretary).

All Dan degrees of these Masters/Grandmasters came from Professor Presas directly. These persons represent the highest Modern Arnis practitioners in the Philippines today and have all started Modern Arnis in the late 60ies or early 70ies. They have been actively promoting the art ever since.

During a ceremony in Manila at March 29th I was awarded Lakan Pito, 7th Dan Modern Arnis.
All the above mentioned Masters and Grandmasters signed my certificate.

I am very proud to have received this high degree and the recogition by all of them.


I will write a little more about the situation o Modern Arnis in the Philippines later, for I am waiting to get some official documents so that I can present you authentic information and not only my impressions.

Regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## knifeman.dk (Apr 1, 2003)

Hi Dieter
Congratulations on your promotion. 
Well done

sincerely Thorbjørn Hartelius:asian:


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## Yari (Apr 1, 2003)

Congratulations!

/Yari


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## Guro Harold (Apr 1, 2003)

Congratulations Datu Dieter, well deserved!!!


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## arnisador (Apr 1, 2003)

Congratulations! Yes, please post more about the situation in the Phil. as well!


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## Seigi (Apr 1, 2003)

Congratulations!


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 1, 2003)

:cheers:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 1, 2003)

:ladysman:


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## Dan Anderson (Apr 1, 2003)

Dieter,
Congratulations on your promotion.
Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Brian Johns (Apr 1, 2003)

Congratulations to you, Dieter !!


Sincerely,
Brian Johns


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 1, 2003)

Congrats!


Sounds like fun training


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## bloodwood (Apr 1, 2003)

Congratulations!

It will be great to hear about your trip and your training.

Bloodwood


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## LabanB (May 14, 2003)

Hi Dieter,

  Just found this thread. Congratulations on your promotion, I'll buy you a pint at next years Festival ;-)

Bill


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## mike dizon (Jun 26, 2004)

Datu Dieter,

Congratulations on such special grading. You must be very proud to achieve this and be recognized by the senior masters of modern arnis.

How long did you stay in the Philippines training? Was it a week or one month? I am curious because you trained with so many of the masters. 

More power to you in the promotion of arnis in Germany.


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## mike dizon (Jun 26, 2004)

By the way,out of the list of instructors Datu Dieter stated, not all are direct or long term students of Professor Remy A. Presas. Most of them received most of their training from others.

Samuel "Bambit" Dulay - A student of Rene Tongson and Ernesto Presas. During the last time Professor REmy Presas came to Philippines, he started training with him.

Rene Tongson - Was a student of arnis and then started training under Ernesto Presas. When Remy A.Presas came to the philippines the last time, he met Remy several times. Does this make him a student of Remy Presas?

Christino Vasquez - A student of Ernesto and had received some training from Remy Presas as well. More known here as a student of Ernesto Presas and was even teaching for Ernesto.

The 3 mentioned masters above transferred across to Remy A. Presas after being associated with Ernesto Presas. How could they have received their training from Remy A. Presas when he was in teh US? This is especially true of Samuel Dulay. When Professor Remy travelled back to manila, it was only a short time.

Out of the list Datu Dieter made, Vicente R. Sanchez, Jerry De la Cruz and  Dagooc were direct students of Professor Remy. By direct,I mean they received all their training from Remy Presas. They started learning under remy Presas after Roland Dantes (a famous actor, bodybuilder and arnis master) and Willy Anning (deceased). Its these men who are recognized as the true senior masters of modern arnis under Remy A. Presas  in the Philippines.

If you look at the early books of Remy Presas, you can see Roland dantes, Vicente sanchez and Willy Annang in the photoes with Remy Presas.

I mean to disrespect no one with this information. Just to tell the truth. The true masters of modern arnis here should be recognized and not be confused with those who did not receive alll their training under Remy A. Presas.


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## Tom Caprio (Jun 28, 2004)

Congratulations to datu Knuttel, but I agree with Mikes points.

Rene Tongson, Bambit Dulay were not students of Professor  Remy Presas here in the Philippines and I think its bad for them or others to claim that they are now that he is dead.

datu Knuttel why do you say that they are direct students of Professor Remy Presas? Having been involved with GM Ernesto Preas before , you know that they are or were his students. Later , bambit was actually taught by Master Robas.


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## Dieter (Jun 29, 2004)

Hello to Mike Dizon and Tom Caprio,

thanks for your contributions in this thread.

Regarding Rene Tongson, Christion Vasquez and Bambit Dulay I would like to mention the following:

Many of you may not be aware, that Remy did return quite a few times back to the Philippines, especially between 1995 and 1999, sometimes for several months. During this time, Bambit Dulay was Remys training partner, who learned and trained everyday with Remy. For Bambit was and is the secretary of IMAF-Philippines, he gave him not only the instruction, how to further spread Modern Arnis in the Philippines, but also the techniques of the Modern Arnis, that Remy was teaching in his last years. 
I know this, because I was there and I have talked with the people. I have seen Bambit and trained with him and I know that these things, that I trained with him, are not from Ernesto but Remy.

I am well aware, that all 3, but especially Rene Tongson and Christino Vasquez had strong relationships to Ernesto. But all 3 for them quit their relationship to Ernesto many years ago out of reasons I am aware of, but not willing to discuss here.
Both of them are cousins to the Presas brothers, Rene 1st level cousin, Christion 2nd level cousin if I remember correct.
Rene Tongson started his training with Jose Bongco Y Presas, the father of the Presas brothers.

Regarding the ranks I wrote the folllowing:

"All Dan degrees of these Masters/Grandmasters came from Professor Presas directly. These persons represent the highest Modern Arnis practitioners in the Philippines today and have all started Modern Arnis in the late 60ies or early 70ies. They have been actively promoting the art ever since."

You may be right about Renes degree, for I know he got his 8th Degree in 1988 already. All the other degress I know came directly from Remy, because I have asked the Masters directly. If you doubt this, your problem not mine.

I did not write, that all of these were original students of Remy from the begin on. I don´t know but I did not claim this. All I said is, that they started Modern Arnis in the 60ies and 70ies and that they are the highest authorities for Modern Arnisin the Philippines as of today. I stand correct for that. I may include Roberto Presas, the 3rd of the Presas brothers in this statement. But he signed a second certificate that I creceived later directly throug Roland Dantes, who also signed it. 

You say you only want to state the facts. Fine, but fact is also, that especially Rene Tongson and Christion Vasquez and as the IMAF-secretary  Bambift Dulay as well are te head of Modern Arnis in the Philippines today and 
this is what I stated. They have always been actively promoting Modern Arnis, where as Vicente Sanches today is more Lightning Scientific Arnis and Jerry de la Cruz is promoting his Arnis Cruzada. Rodel Dagoog is still promoting Modern Arnis in his organisation and never was affiliated with Ernesto. 

This is not taking anything away from theit authenticity, but also fact as of today.

All I wanted to point out is, that I did train and have the support of all different Modern Arnis groups in the Philippines and their heads and not only one, because they all signed my certificates. And all were acknowledged by the late Professor Remy Presas during his stay in Manila in 1999. No matter if they began theit trainig with him or not. This is what I wanted to tell and this is what I find correct as of my knowledge gained from many talks with the Masters in Manila.

Regarding my stay there it was 10 days. I was fortunate enough, being able to arrange the training with the master in that was, that I could always train with 3 - 4 of the Masters every day, so that I got training from all of them.

I had very intesnive training from Rodel Dagoog, Christino Vasquez and Rene Tongson during my 1983 and 1986 stays in Manila, where I stayed about 3 Months each time only for Modern Arnis training. 

I hope this post answered your questions and gave some information.


Best regards from Germany



Dieter Knüttel 
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## mike dizon (Jun 29, 2004)

Bambit daulay was until only a few years ago being taught by Pepito Robas. This is a fact and 

Datu Dieter,

Are you sure that Vicente Sanchez is more lightning scientific? I think you wil find it is not the case and he teaches modern asrnis and lightning. It could be your understanding of it is only due to the few sessions you had with him.

If you are talking about modern arnis as formulated and taught in the Philippines by Remy Presas, then I disagree with you. Rodel Dagooc, Jerry dela Cruz, and others were taught only by Remy Presas and because of this they represent modern arnis. Bambit is good at what he does, but the majority of his training came from others and not Remy Presas.


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## Dieter (Jun 29, 2004)

> Bambit daulay was until only a few years ago being taught by Pepito Robas. This is a fact and



Maybe. I don´t know, but Bambit is the one who is pushing the Remy Preas Modenr Arnis in the Philippines. Thats a fact too.



> Are you sure that Vicente Sanchez is more lightning scientific? I think you wil find it is not the case and he teaches modern asrnis and lightning. It could be your understanding of it is only due to the few sessions you had with him.



Not at all, because it is a result of long talks i had with him. No misunderstanding possible.
He still holds Remy in high respect, no dooubt about that, but he is doing his trainingin his Orgainisation Arnis/Kali Philippnes and concentrates aminly on lightning and cinco Teros. This does not mean that he has abandoned Modern Arnis, but it is not his first style any more.





> If you are talking about modern arnis as formulated and taught in the Philippines by Remy Presas, then I disagree with you.



I am talking about the International Modern Arnis Federation - Philippines, IMAF-P, which ist the association that Remy supported on his trips back to the Philippines and which is by far the largest Modern Arnis Gropup in the Philippines.



> Rodel Dagooc, Jerry dela Cruz, and others were taught only by Remy Presas and because of this they represent modern arnis. Bambit is good at what he does, but the majority of his training came from others and not Remy Presas.



They all belong to the Mdoern Arnis family on the Philippines THEY respect EACH OTHER and what the others do. Of course, each one has another interpretation of Modern Arnis, but I cannot say that Rodels Modern Arnis is closer to Remys style in the late 90ies than Bambits style.  Everybody evolved and developed, not only Remy, and this is why Modern Arnis in the Philippines also has different versions, depending who is teaching it. I am sure nobody is teaching the Modern Arnis of the 70ies any more. 
Everybody progressed, some not in the same direction, but I am not the one to say, that one way is better than the other.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 29, 2004)

As a side note, thanks Dieter for more of the PI side and lineage of Modern Arnis.  This is an area we Americans weren't clued in on by our teacher.  Keep on posting, guys.  I, for one, appreciate it.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## sungkit (Jun 29, 2004)

Mike Dizon & Tom Caprio:

I have posted under the topic of 8th degree black belt (or something similar). Please read to see my views. It is late here inthe Philippines and I have to rise nice and early. I will post about this later tonight. 

To be short, concentrate on your own training and development. Datu Dieter has put the time and effort into his training and research and deserves some respect.Additionally he has been commended by the senior masters inthe Philippines for his continual work at promoting notonly modern arnis, but all systems of FMA. Keep away from politics and train a little more!


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## Guro Harold (Jun 29, 2004)

Mod Note:

Hello Everyone,

Please read this notice stated here by Seig:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15344

We will not tolerate beleaguering our fellow members.  Please remember that friendly discussions does not mean that you win the argument or to coerce someone to believe the same way as you.

It that means you state and share your points on topic and in a courteous and respectable manner.

If the discussion gets heated, then take it offline and PM the parties involved.  If you as a member feel that you are being harassed or someone has stepped over the line, then report the post or behavior to a Moderator.

Best regards,

Palusut
MT Moderator


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## sungkit (Jun 30, 2004)

I think Palusut's post should be respected. If you have something to say to the other parties that is not constructive or is going to degenerate into a bad attitude, keep it private and PM the person involved.


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## Dieter (Jun 30, 2004)

Hi, 

Sorry I am not a native engish speaking person but I did not get the point. Of course I heared a slight negative touch in Mike Dizon and Tom Caprion posts, but was it that bad that the moderator had to step in? 

Please clarify the "why" for me.

Thank you.


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Guro Harold (Jun 30, 2004)

Dieter said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Sorry I am not a native engish speaking person but I did not get the point. Of course I heared a slight negative touch in Mike Dizon and Tom Caprion posts, but was it that bad that the moderator had to step in?
> 
> ...



Hi Dieter,

I was not stepping in on any one person's post.

The reminder was put in this thread, the 7th Dan thread and at the top of both the FMA forum and MA forum because of various "conflicts" that needed to be addressed and to ensure that the highest number of people saw our administrative warning.

If you or anyone else has a personal concern about my actions, please PM me or the MT Admins Seig or Kaith.

Best regards and good posting,

Palusut


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 30, 2004)

Hi Dieter,

I think Palusut was heading off what _could have_ happened in this thread.  The "8th degree..." thread was reopened and it started to get slightly toasty and I'm sure he didn't want this one to get that way as well.  The moderators have been really cracking down on the flame wars as of late.  It cuts down on the excitement but it keeps the forum as it should be - an area for discussion.

Sungkit,

I copied your post and placed it here for others to read.


> Palusut and other Esteemed members of Martial Talk:
> 
> I have mentioned in previous posts,I am a student of Guro Roland Dantes and have been for several years.
> 
> ...



Please post us and let us know how the interview turned out.  It sounds like a great opportunity.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## sungkit (Jun 30, 2004)

Dan,

No problems from my end with putting my post under this topic. 

The interview is going to be interesting and I think can be very beneficial to modern arnis. The Senior Masters will be more than willing to answer questions and it is no problem for me to ask what questions are requested.

Cheers.


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## sungkit (Jun 30, 2004)

Dieter,
As Dan pointed out, it was not you. Some people like to casue friction and I think that it was a good idea of Palusut to pre empt where people may have been heading. Those guys had only made a few posts and they were heading down the avenue of politics.

I hope all is well in Germany. Guro Roland has received the vidoes/dvds that you sent him. He is still telling people here what a sensational event Alfred and yourself hosted. I cant wait to see the demonstrations etc.


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## mike dizon (Jul 3, 2004)

Thank you for the reply datu Dieter. I arent questioning your training in modern arnis. Just who claimed to be taught by master Remy Presas.


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