# Triggered Salute



## satans.barber (Jun 30, 2002)

Ping instructors...

When you teach your students Triggered Salute, do you allow them to execute the elbows and backfist above or below the arm depending on their height relative to their partner, or do you force them to use one or the other consistently?

Ian.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 30, 2002)

Triggered Salute- below the arms. This is where your line will be after you execute the frictional pull.
Mace of Aggression - above the arms
Jason Farnsworth


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 30, 2002)

In the ideal phase of the technique, beginners are taught to go below the arm.    As you advance in the art, you'll notice it's not the only thing you can do.    Six of one, half dozen of the other when you start getting into what if's, and only if they're backed by solid principles and logic.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Rainman (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *Triggered Salute- below the arms. This is where your line will be after you execute the frictional pull.
> Mace of Aggression - above the arms
> Jason Farnsworth *




Good answer- where is your homework assignment  Don't tell me the dog ate it:rofl: 




:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 30, 2002)

I have 4 cats and 3 kids.
Jason Farnsworth


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## brianhunter (Jun 30, 2002)

Me and Jeff where talking about this today, In the ideal it works fine, but what if your 6'2" and your attackers 5'7"? Are you willing to cancel your own hieght to elbow the ribs? I wouldnt...but just like Clyde said your into the what ifs and they are the most fun but the base technique says get the ribs man! On the streets its not if you did it "right" its making sure your whos left 


Bam Bam


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## satans.barber (Jul 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Me and Jeff where talking about this today, In the ideal it works fine, but what if your 6'2" and your attackers 5'7"? Are you willing to cancel your own hieght to elbow the ribs? I wouldnt...but just like Clyde said your into the what ifs and they are the most fun but the base technique says get the ribs man! On the streets its not if you did it "right" its making sure your whos left
> 
> ...



That's what I was meaning, we're taught that you can go over the top of the arm to the face if the person is much shorter, however I suppose that in reality a much smaller person probably wouldn't grab a much larger person anyway (maybe if they were drugged up, I dunno).

By 'ideal phase' do you just mean if the person was stood in the correct position with the correct manner to allow the technique to work most effectively? I've not heard this phrase before.

Ian.


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## Seig (Jul 1, 2002)

goes to show how the three phases meld together and create a tailored technique.  You were working with the ideal phase, a what if crept in, so you had to formulate a new plan.......


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 1, 2002)

Hey Ian, to answer you question on the 3 phases of a technique

1) ideal- the perfect solution, everything is in the correct position to get the technique off without a hitch

2)the infamous what-if phase.   Should your opponent not react ideally, and do something else you hadn't planned on.

3) formulation phase comes during the what-if LOL.    You're doing Shielding Hammer and your opponent throws a right after your first block, your response is formulated from repetition of techniques to deal with that type of attack.

Hope that helped and it was in my own words, not the EOK.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Doc (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *Ping instructors...
> 
> ...



If you let them do what they want, they'll never really learn either. 

When you factor in the Psycology of Confrontation this is an unlikely scenario. If I were 5'7" I'm not sure I would push someone so much taller in the shoulder. Pushes by their nature are designed to intimidate, coerce, and/or set up. If I am the aggressor and my intended victim is that much taller, odds are I wouldn't use a push to intimidate him. Short guys do not intimidate big guys by pushing and shoving. In fact the reverse is mre likely. Short guys will leave it alone, use a weapon, or solicit help.

You must examine every situation from various perspectives, not just the obvious.


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 2, 2002)

I'm I am 6'5" tall, 216 lbs and just a young buck in the Kenpo community (16 years).... In all that time I have never been pushed or set up by someone smaller than me with a push. As Dr. Chapél stated, smaller guys don't intimidate bigger guys by pushing them...

Unless your a drill sergeant or something...:rofl:


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## Kirk (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *I'm I am 6'5" tall, 216 lbs and just a young buck in the Kenpo community (16 years).... In all that time I have never been pushed or set up by someone smaller than me with a push. As Dr. Chapél stated, smaller guys don't intimidate bigger guys by pushing them...
> 
> Unless your a drill sergeant or something...:rofl: *



heheheh ... I'm 6 ft even, 365lbs ... no one in my class can even
come close to putting me in a bear hug.  I'm slowly losing 
wieght though, thanks to kenpo, but for now .. it's an exercise
that isn't likely to happen in the street.


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## Sigung86 (Jul 2, 2002)

I was going to answer, but:

A.  Doc covered it pretty well.

B.  Jason Farnsworths' kids and cats ate my homework. :lol:

Dan


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## brianhunter (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I strongly disagree.....I have seen this scenerio go down...Lots of guys with napoleon complex out there a small guy will push a big guy...
You can say pshycological aspects but I think this happens alot your in law enforcement you havent encounted alot of this??? Maybe its just the cowboys around kansas or something


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## Klondike93 (Jul 2, 2002)

I've seen lot's of shorter people push around bigger guys just trying to show how tough they are. And women, wheew, don't go there. They will try and shove a big guy around in a heart beat.



:asian:


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## satans.barber (Jul 2, 2002)

A shorter guy would push a bigger guy around if he had a gang of his mates with him, I've been intimidated by guys much shorter than me before, but done nothing because there were 10+ bigger guys hanging around with him.

I'm good, but I'm not that good 

However, when said person get's out of jail (no I aren't...) and meets me somewhere dark and quiet one night, he'll get what's coming to him.

I don't forget a brick in the face lightly.

Ian.


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## Doc (Jul 2, 2002)

--I strongly disagree.....--

About what? Is there validity to what I pointed out?

--I have seen this scenerio go down...Lots of guys with napoleon complex out there a small guy will push a big guy...--

So is that the norm in your view? Is a small man more or less likely to push a much bigger man? Yes, lots of Naploeon complexes (except Gou) but even these people wouldn't engage in this activity repeatedly on a regular basis. They simply would not survive the circumstances over time. Complex or not, most people aren't stupid.

--You can say pshycological aspects but I think this happens alot--

You think? Because you have seen it happen you extrapolate that to normality?

--your in law enforcement you havent encounted alot of this???--

Well yes and no. When it does happen, the little guy is the victim, and the witnesses say, "What the hell was he thinking?" There is a reason it's called a "beat down."

--Maybe its just the cowboys around kansas or something---

I wouldn't even say that about cowboys in Kansas. I think you have seen it maybe a couple of times and it stands out in your mind, so it gives you the opportunity to interject a conditioned "what if" when someone attempts to give you "rigid scenarios."

This is "Analysis Paralysis" that is so prevelent in Motion-Kenpo and is part of its many concepts that is misapplied. The truth is you can "what if" any situation or circumstance. You spend so much time looking at the possibilities (which are infinite) you never learn any one thing well. "What if a plane crashes near my feet just when I'm about to block?"  "What if he's taller or shorter or fatter or stronger or faster or meaner or female or black or Democrat or on drugs?" "Wait! what were we working on?"

This is a major distraction and is not the way Ed Parker intended that concept to be used. In basketball the mechanics of a jump shot are set for success. They are not altered or "what if'ed" for circumstance. Even if someone is attempting to block it, you execute the same once the decision is made to shoot. All the footwork, shakin' and bakin' happens beforehand. There is no physical endeavor done at a high level that allows for interpretation. There is one most efficient way to perform physically with the human body. Deviate at your own peril.

This particular "What if" concept crosses over into all interpretations and levels of Commercial American Kenpo. Take note Mr. Parker used the term Phases, of Kenpo as I have, (of course thats where I got it from) He is very specific that in the first phase of your learning, the student should be subjected to a set curriculum with no variations, "what ifs" or formulations, and it not only confused students but doesnt allow for enough physical repetition of the set model to create new synaptic pathways or muscle memory. 

The following quotes are from Mr. Parkers writings in the last version of his Green Belt manual from the I.K.K.A.. His words not mine.

******In this phase, the term ideal implies that the situation is fixed and that the "what if" questions required in Phase II are NOT TO BE INCLUDED IN PHASE I.*******

He mentioned at least  two phases. This is as I teach. The term what if is forbidden for lower division students. It is more important to concentrate on basic skills and physical vocabulary that emphasizes body mechanics AND techniques that are absolutely functional and capable of standing alone. Every technique in Phase I explores concepts of application, and teachers specific skills to be explored in subsequent phases or levels. But Phase one must be functional first. Mr. Parker further explains the so-called conceptual IDEAL technique in this next quote.

*****Therefore, the IDEAL techniques are built around seemingly INFLEXIBLE and one dimensional assumptions for a good purpose. They provide us with a basis from which we may BEGIN our analytical process, (like a control model in any reliable scientific experiment). Prescribed techniques applied to prescribed reactions are the keys that make a basic technique IDEAL or FIXED.*****

How can a student who has not yet learned the vocabulary begin an analytical process without a firm foundation? When Ed Parker talked about phases he wanted his black belt students with schools to take the very general ideas of the techniques presented in the manuals, and create their own fixed technique. They were supposed to extrapolate the base technique from the manual (which we all know are purposely vague) in conjunction with his conceptual teachings. He was teaching his Black Belt Student Converst with schools HOW TO CREATE THEIR OWN INTERPRETATIONS for their students. He wanted them to use the Phase I System to create a personal fixed interpretation for their own students, while exploring concepts of "what ifs" and formulations WITH THEM AS TEACHERS. 

When you understand most of Ed Parkers black belts came to him from other disciplines, you understand he had to teach on multiple levels with different people already established with schools and/or students all over the world out of necessity. He knew if he began teaching someone already a black belt and students of his own just basics he would loose them, so he never taught basics, only the concepts of basics. That and his lack of availability to teach regularly dictated this. And of course he was also evolving all the time. If he visited a students school in January and taught, when he saw him again in June the material could be old or discarded. He used the term Old Kenpo in private frequently as well as Motion. This also explains the diversity of understandings and progression among the many schools. Some teachers only wanted to go so far, others wanted more, some were busy, sme were part time, etc.

So Ed Parker is at fault here. He actually confused students and teachers alike with this particular concept because in Motion-Kenpo he allowed all three phases to exist at the same time, which actually contradicts his own statement. He realized as he was exploring these concepts with his teachers, they were sharing the information with their students. Realizing there was nothing he could do to stop it, he allowed it to continue. However it was never his intent for the beginning student to be subjected to anything but phase I teaching as he wrote. He said,

 In Phase I, structuring an IDEAL technique requires SELECTING A COMBAT SITUATION YOU WISH TO ANALYZE. Contained within the technique should be FIXED MOVES OF DEFENSE, OFFENSE, AND THE ANTICIPATED REACTIONS that can stem from them.

So you see that covers everything. No room for a what if that now permeates even white belt lessons. You can see hes talking to teachers of the art about the process they should use creating their own style or interpretation they is going to teach their students. So the technique is fixed but only within that instructors school or lineage. Mr. Planas has stated this many times. The technique manuals are just a base of ideas to get the TEACHER started using Mr. Parkers conceptual guidelines to insure function. Therefore, those who have used Motion-Kenpo as their base and then went on to create their own interpretation of techniques are absolutely correct. Remember the bb's that came over were from many different styles and were attarcted to the flexibility Ed Parker.

The hard curriculum of Ed Parker was, and has never been generally taught. Hard curriculum dictated by his ever-evolving desires and philosophies didn't begin to evolve until the mid eighties.

Now you can understand why the "what if" is irrelevant without a significant solid base curriculum that is "hard wired' into your synaptic pathways, and fortified against Adrenal Stress Syndrome. I can't seem to get many to grasp or accept this, to me, rather obvious fact. The understanding of the "what if" is in two stages depending on where you are in the study of American Kenpo and what your personal intentions are. "What ifs" are what your opponent WILL DO when you engage him properly and control the circumstances. NOT what he MIGHT do initially. What ifs are REACTIONS, NOT ACTIONS.
Simply:

If you are a student, it is more important to CHOOSE THE RIGHT TECHNIQUE than tailor a response spontaneously when you have limited information, skills, and undeveloped muscle memory. In the case of Triggered Salute where there is height disparity as discussed, maybe the answer isnt to change the technique, but depending on where you are, perhaps a strictly taught "Snapping Twigs" is the answer. If you simply stay in the system, the answers usually come in the form of another technique as you become more experienced and skilled. At the first phase, the "what ifs" are built in and are not self directed study.

If you are a higher-level student with a desire to create and teach techniques, than do so. But whatever you do keep the "what ifs" to yourself and make them learn one way that actually works.


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 2, 2002)

> *originally posted by: Mr. Chapél *
> That's my view, I could be wrong



I agree with what you've said. The beginner does need a  standardized curriculum, and the "What If" phase should be reserved for the advanced student.



> *originally posted by: Mr. Chapél *
> How can a student who has not yet learned the vocabulary begin an analytical process without a firm foundation? When Ed Parker talked about phases he wanted his black belt students with schools to take the very general ideas of the techniques presented in the manuals, and create their own fixed technique. They were supposed to extrapolate the base technique from the manual (which we all know are purposely vague) in conjunction with his conceptual teachings. He was teaching his Black Belt Student Converst with schools HOW TO CREATE THEIR OWN INTERPRETATIONS for their students. He wanted them to use the Phase I System to create a personal fixed interpretation for their own students, while exploring concepts of "what ifs" and formulations WITH THEM AS TEACHERS.



I have a firm appreciation for that statement! I totally agree!

A ringing endorsement from,
Billy "Mr. Nobody" Lear


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## Doc (Jul 2, 2002)

Mr. Lear, there are many things I might call you but, "nobody" is not one of them.


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 2, 2002)

I appreciate that.

I'll be gone for about a week, I have to go to Albuquerque, NM to visit my mother-in-law, but... I'll be back.:armed: 

Take Care,
Billy


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## GouRonin (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *So is that the norm in your view? Is a small man more or less likely to push a much bigger man? Yes, lots of Naploeon complexes (except Gou) but even these people wouldn't engage in this activity repeatedly on a regular basis. They simply would not survive the circumstances over time. Complex or not, most people aren't stupid.*



Jeez, I'm taking a beating here. I never went at someone who didn't have it coming and didn't know that it was.

I'm 5'8" and 145lbs. I'm not a big guy but I will tell you this, in my experience a smaller guy shoving a larger guy is posturing and a bluff. Either that or they're stupid. I just wouldn't shove a larger guy like Lance who is 6 feet and change and into the 200lbs range. It'd be do not visit jail, head right over to *"GO"* and pass as you collect your 200.00$ More than likely it's a verbal warning if anything before you dance.

Ingmar Johannson from Sweden is smaller than me in height but larger in frame and he can really rip it up. If you're at Jeff Blay's summer Kenpo camp this year you can see him go. However, when he and I were talking about this we did hit this subject and the Doc is right for the most part. It rarely happens where the smaller guy just shoves to initiate conflict. As I said in my experience if they do it's a posturing move or a bluff.

I did spend some time working in corrections and when I did shove it wasn't to the shoulder it was to a lower area, hip, kidney etc and usually with an object to create space for myself should I need it. Security, corrections, police etc are great at knowing what works, (except that they are poor at exploring new techniques and incorperating them... sort of a catch 22) and one of the things they said was never get it close and try and shove a larger guy.

In my opinion and experience, smaller guys are more likely to just _"go off"_ rather than shove. But that's just what I know. Your kms may vary.


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *--I strongly disagree.....--
> 
> ...


ummmm.... okay.


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 3, 2002)

> I just wouldn't shove a larger guy like Lance who is 6 feet and change and into the 200lbs range.



Darn right you wouldn't ....I might cry....:rofl:

Then you'll feel bad...:rofl:


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