# Kovar's Karate Studios



## Shodan (Oct 16, 2003)

While driving home today, I noticed that there is a new studio going in right down the street from my house.  It is Kovar's Karate.  Does anyone know anything about this chain?  There are quite a few down here in the Sacramento area and that's what makes me nervous- as I am used to small, independent schools.  Their ad in the phone book says they teach Kenpo (and a host of other things too).........I am wondering if it is EPAK or some other off-shoot........I plan to give them a call and see what they say but was wondering if anyone knows of them and/or has had any experience with this line of schools?

  Thanks!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shodan _
> *While driving home today, I noticed that there is a new studio going in right down the street from my house.  It is Kovar's Karate.  Does anyone know anything about this chain?  There are quite a few down here in the Sacramento area and that's what makes me nervous- as I am used to small, independent schools.  Their ad in the phone book says they teach Kenpo (and a host of other things too).........I am wondering if it is EPAK or some other off-shoot........I plan to give them a call and see what they say but was wondering if anyone knows of them and/or has had any experience with this line of schools?
> 
> Thanks!
> ...


Well you better watch out, I don't know the name but I'll let you in on what is going to happen. They will lock students by the score to (at least) year long contracts. They sound as if the intend to not only open that school but one further down the road as well. They can be competed with on there own level or you can advertise the "no" contract angle. I'm just telling you how that sort of thing works in this town.
Sean


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## Shodan (Oct 16, 2003)

Thanks for your info.  The main thing making me wonder about this place right now is that they just merged with another partner and plan to open 100 schools in a year or something. 
http://sacramento.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2003/09/15/story4.html?page=4

 The other thing is I have been looking and cannot find who the founders learned under.......who their instructors were........and yet they are supposed to have a very popular school with lots of students and a demo team that I guess is very good............

  With that many schools, they have to have a lot of students in the higher ranks that are willing to teach.........I just don't know how good the quality would be...........is this what they call "Mc Dojos?"  Coming from a small town.........I have no idea about these types of chains..............help!!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## progressivetactics (Oct 16, 2003)

their name is thrown around alot in MAIA. They specialize in school managment, instructor training, motivational teaching, etc.  It is a real test if what they market, actually works.  I would have some interest in their school, as MAIA makes them sound like they are viable competitor for neighborhood karate programs.

Keep us posted.

bb


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## Shiatsu (Oct 16, 2003)

Kovar kenpo has been in Budo international, it doesn't look that bad to me.  It is along the lines of reality based training.


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## Ceicei (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shodan _
> *Thanks for your info.  The main thing making me wonder about this place right now is that they just merged with another partner and plan to open 100 schools in a year or something.
> *



100 in ONE year?  How would that be possible?  I would think that the growth rate of a good solid school system would be a bit slower than that...

- Ceicei


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## Shodan (Oct 16, 2003)

Thanks to everyone so far.....I left a message with the contact person for the new studio tonight asking some questions.......will keep you posted as to what is said.

  I'm not sure how they are planning to open that many schools- they have the money.....but I don't know about how they can get enough students to support them all- especially if they are planning on putting the studios fairly close together.......I guess we shall see.........

  Thanks again!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## arnisador (Oct 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Kovar kenpo has been in Budo international*



Ah, now I know where I've heard that name before!

Yes, reality-based training.


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## Shiatsu (Oct 17, 2003)

They were the guys in SWAT uniforms.  I wouldn't really think that they would be doing the commercial school thing.


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## John Bishop (Oct 17, 2003)

Their have been some write ups on them in "Martial Arts Success" magazine, the trade journal for the "Martial Arts Industry Association".  Their Kenpo training comes from Bruce Jucknic of Sei Kosho Shorei Kai.  Right now their into chain school expansion.


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## Shiatsu (Oct 17, 2003)

What type of kenpo does that branch off of?


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## CoolKempoDude (Oct 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *What type of kenpo does that branch off of? *



Mitose's style


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## M F (Oct 17, 2003)

> Kovar kenpo has been in Budo international, it doesn't look that bad to me. It is along the lines of reality based training.



I believe that was Kokkar Kenpo (Or something similar), rather than Kovar Kenpo.


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## arnisador (Oct 17, 2003)

Kokkar--I think that's what was in Budo Intl.


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## Shodan (Oct 17, 2003)

Okay.........so can anyone confirm that Kovar and not Kokkar is the "reality-based" training?  And can anyone help me out with what reality-based training means?

  Also, I am only familiar with EPAK- it is what I have studied for my whole journey.........if Kovar's Kenpo comes from Bruce Jucknic.......is that in line with EPAK or would it look totally different to me?

  Thanks all!!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## arnisador (Oct 17, 2003)

Kokkar:
http://ag.animafx.net/Budo2/budo2/spm/Spm19.htm
http://www.immortal.co.uk/body_security__police___military_de.html  (middle of the page)

Yes, Kokkar is the reality-based art.

Kovar:
http://www.kovar.com/
http://www.martialinfo.com/owners/manuals/kovar/default.asp

It's by Dave and Tim Kovar. It isn't clear to me if it's a style--Kovar Kenpo/Kovar Karate--or just Kovar's Karate School, teaching some particular style.


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## Seig (Oct 17, 2003)

I have not met the Kovars. but I do get there magazine, martial arts success.  It seems to me that what they are masters of is seperating people from their money.


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## John Bishop (Oct 17, 2003)

Kosho Ryu Kenpo, as taught to Bruce Juchnic when he visited James Mitose at Folson Prison.  How much he learned during visiting hours has been the subject of many interesting discussions.


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## CoolKempoDude (Oct 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Bishop _
> *Kosho Ryu Kenpo, as taught to Bruce Juchnic when he visited James Mitose at Folson Prison.  How much he learned during visiting hours has been the subject of many interesting discussions. *



didn't bruce juchnic ONLY learn the SPIRITUAL aspect of kosho ryu????


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## Shodan (Oct 17, 2003)

> I have not met the Kovars. but I do get there magazine, martial arts success. It seems to me that what they are masters of is seperating people from their money



  Yikes!!  That doesn't sound too good!! 

  Well, the guy who is going to be the instructor of the new studio here called me back today and we set up a meeting for the middle of November.  I am going into this with a lot of skepticism and basically, trying not to get my hopes up.  Firstly, the guy said they charge $139/month......which is WAY out of my league.  If it looks good to me though, he said that maybe (as I suggested) I could trade some of my help at the studio for a decreased fee.  The thing is.......how decreased?  It's gonna have to be A LOT decreased for me!!  I can't afford much.

  From what I gathered from him, Kovar's karate has a Kenpo base and that base, he said, is most closely related to Tracy's Kenpo.  It sounds like they teach a conglomeration of several different arts which makes me wonder..........when you are a certain rank....what do you say your style is......."I am a ______ belt in _______????  

  I figured I would at least meet with the guy and check it all out as I am dying to work-out more often.  As I've said in other posts, since I live so far away from my "home school" now, I can only make it up there once per month and it is driving me crazy not to be able to work out like I used to.    

  We shall see what, if anything, comes of this......I will keep you posted!!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 19, 2003)

One hundred thirty nine dollars a month?!?! Good Lawd thats a lot of money. I'm living in a little Kenpo Mecca myself. Not one charges over One hundred. There is a JkD guy here in town named Paul whom charge four hundred a month. You should here the spell he weaves. God speed in your decsision.


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## CoolKempoDude (Oct 19, 2003)

this place wants your money NOT to teach. Perhaps, you should go elsewhere.

i can't believe people can ripp other off like that.

i bet you 1 thing. the guy in charge of this place DID NOT pay a lot to learn from somebody else..


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## bart (Oct 19, 2003)

Hey,

I live in Sacramento. I learned under Bruce Juchnik when I was a kid and no matter what anyone says about his art, he's legit. He's put in the years and what he has is worth learning. He was already high level when he met Mitose, and his training with him, just put together some things in his mind that hadn't been put together before. His Karate is different than the Tracy's and it is different than EPAK. It is also officially recognized by a few cultural associations in Japan as a legitimate traditional Japanese Cultural Art. It turned out to not be my cup of tea, but I am nonetheless always impressed by his skill and I have nothing but good things to say about him. 

As for Kovar's, they learned under Juchnik for a bit, but they are a taekwondo school and for a while they claimed to be trained by a top level Korean master. I came across some people that trained at Kovar's when I was a bouncer and they were always people that needed rescuing. They teach martial discipline (respect, sportsmanship, character) and they are very good at that, but that's where it ends. They teach taekwondo-ish, sport style karate, under the name of Kenpo. 

A few years ago Kovar's had a deal where they would guarantee a black belt for $1,000. Any program that guarantees a black belt is suspect to me. Any teachers that do that are suspect as well. 

If you're looking for EPAK, try Trevor Haines or Reid's Karate or Moore's Karate. They're all in the phone book. 

If you do choose to go to Kovar's and train, they will try to lock you into a year long contract at least. A former training partner I had gave it a go there before coming to train in the Wing Chun school I was learning at.  From what I recollect of his rants, I don't believe that you can train month to month, and you can't train every day without shelling out a lot of cash. 

My main tiff with these guys comes from my bouncing days. A few memorable ones had arrogant attitudes and lost their tempers easily. They had students with 1st and 2nd degree black belts that couldn't handle themselves in a self-defense situation. The problem was not so much with the techniques but with the level of expertise in the techniques. Some would say they lacked seasoning and refinement. They knew what to do, but hadn't been trained well enough to use them correctly and effectively. The end result was a stupid overconfidence that caused them to get themselves stomped in a niteclub. 

Feel free to contact me if you want to talk about this.


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## Seig (Oct 19, 2003)

Years ago and maybe still, out here on the East Coast, there wasa  chain called Kim's Karate.  They guaranteed a BB in two years.....same thing......buyer beware.


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## KENPOJOE (Oct 19, 2003)

Hi Folks!
Way back in the 1980's Dave Kovar offered some videos on the Kenpo that he taught. It was an offshoot of the tracy system with some different names here and there...
He and his brother would later go on to study different martial arts [TKD most notably] and really deal with the major Martial Arts Business groups [EFC, most notably] and gleamed all the info they could and became one of the "shining examples" of a successful martial arts studio. They went through some organizational changes with different financial groups and are now one of the main Studios associated with Century's "MAIA" business organization [SEE Black Belt's ad with his pic in December issue,page 21] He offers the going rete offered by most of the EFC/UP/MAIA ilk which means 137.00 a month for instruction and a long term contract. 
I've seen his video tapes on keeping a kids program motivated and he is one of the most successful schools in the country. It is indeed commercial, So is any studio that really wants to stay open! It's amazing how people want instruction but don't want to pay good money for it. Ed Parker,Al tracy,and Fred Villari alll franchised their studios and their arts and it grew immensely! 100 schools in a years may seem unheard of ,but all the above men strived for those goals too!
Check out the class and specifically ask about the arts they teach and make sure you have an intro equal to your level of proficency,rather than an obligatory "intro" class. Because the instructor has to motivate you to want to learn. 
As an instructor who has had to struggle at times with owning a cmartial arts studio, I have suffered with the horrors of not being "commercial" enough and going through the "poverty" complex. I no longer do that. I am worked every penny you pay for and if it's a "pretty penny" then you get what you pay for! Remember, most times, to get the best,you pay the most, and if you charge too little, people do not appreciate it and are suspect of your worth ["why is it so cheap? He must not be that good!"]
Good luck with the appointment!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2003)

One of Mr. Parkers Blackbelts by the last name of Silva started a great business organization called United proffessionals, The nice thing is that the style of Kenpo or Karate you teach does not matter. Its your art so teach it any way you like; however, United professionals will show you how to do what the Kovars are doing(they may even be part of United proffessionals) They will teach you solid business practices that really work. I was involved in one of the United professional schools until very recently. At least check out these methods before you damn them. One thing is for sure, your chances of success will increase. Contracts and thank you notes might mean the difference between flourishing or having to close down.
Sean


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## KENPOJOE (Oct 20, 2003)

Dear Sean[touch of death],
I have known Greg Silva for approximately 20 years. I first met him through the "East-West Karate" chain that he started in Connencticut by him approaching Mr. Parker to start teching seminars at his locations. I've also known him through the IKKA seminars he attended on the east coast over the years. The last time I actually saw Greg wand John Geyston [of progressive Kenpo] was at the Untied Professionals home office in Coral Springs,Florida, when I interviewed him for my TV show, "Martial Arts Today" TV, based out of Massachusetts.
He is a good instructor and does a hybrid of Tracy Kenpo and TKD and offers several martial arts through his Elite Martial Arts Training Center [now renamed "East-West Karate" once again]
His "United Professionals" is a business orientation/funding-finance/billing company that is one of the top ones in the country. He was one of EFC's "golden Boys" for Nick Cokinos before breaking off and forming his own company.
BTW,If you ever heard of anyone doing the "Universal" forms, those were Greg's creation!
I hope that I was of some service,
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## donald (Oct 20, 2003)

From my understanding he was a pretty high ranking blackbelt when he hooked up with Mr.Mitose. His kenpo came from the Tracy lineage. He is also supposed to be an accomplished caligrahpher? Hope this info helps out?

Salute in Christ,
Donald  :asian:


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## Shodan (Oct 20, 2003)

Thanks again to everyone who has helped out with info. on this thread.  As of right now.....I don't think it is even worth it for me to check out Kovar's.  I just got a note from another person I am considering studying with (he is a friend of my instructor's who teaches Kenpo- Darryl Liner) who informed me that the Kenpo I would find at Kovar's is VERY different from what I am used to.  In addition, he said they teach a conglomeration of other things and don't even introduce the Kenpo aspect of the system until you are around a brown belt.  This is sounding more and more like something I don't want to do.......so chances are, I will check out a local Filipino stick fighting place I just learned about here and also Mr. Liner's studio and decide from between those two.  Both are smaller schools- which is what I am used to and the commercial thing still isn't that appealing to me.  Plus, both the studios I will be checking into have reasonable prices.....always a good thing........and what I really need right now.

  :asian:  :karate:


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 21, 2003)

I can personally tell you that Mr. Liner's one of the nicest people I've met in kenpo...and as for sparring....oh, lord. Prepare to run screaming....not that, in my experience with the man, it'll help. He's kinda quick.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> *Dear Sean[touch of death],
> I have known Greg Silva for approximately 20 years. I first met him through the "East-West Karate" chain that he started in Connencticut by him approaching Mr. Parker to start teching seminars at his locations. I've also known him through the IKKA seminars he attended on the east coast over the years. The last time I actually saw Greg wand John Geyston [of progressive Kenpo] was at the Untied Professionals home office in Coral Springs,Florida, when I interviewed him for my TV show, "Martial Arts Today" TV, based out of Massachusetts.
> He is a good instructor and does a hybrid of Tracy Kenpo and TKD and offers several martial arts through his Elite Martial Arts Training Center [now renamed "East-West Karate" once again]
> ...


The instructor I was training under, had his own curriculum to draw from; so, I wouldn't know of any "universal Forms" that Greg Silva taught. I will say that the school I was involved with is the largest and so far most sucsessfull school in Spokane. Weve run umpteen Karate schools into the ground. I have chosen to train with a more mom and pop type school that teaches a more traditional style of Ed Parkers Kenpo than the "Silva" school, but If I were to ever open up my own school somewhere, United proffessionals is the first place I would call. 
Sean


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## arnisador (Oct 29, 2003)

The current (Dec. 2003) issue of Black Belt has an ad for:
http://www.masuccess.com

that features a picture of Dave Kovar who is endorsing the site.


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## bdparsons (Oct 29, 2003)

Bruce Juchnik was my very first martial arts instructor way back in 1972. Though I didn't know any better at the time, I now know he was teaching a modified Tracy's Kenpo curriculum. Being starry-eyed at the time I would tell you that Bruce Juchnik was awesome in his ability. Knowing what I know now after 30+ years in the arts I can tell you that Bruce Juchnik is truly awesome in his ability. You look back after many years and can appreciate what you had. I just wish I hadn't been such an irresponsible teenager and paid my monthly tuition like I was supposed to.

I'm not familiar with the Kovars; just wanted to put in my .02 about Bruce. If you get the opportunity to train with him, don't pass it up.

Respects,
Bill Parsons


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## teej (Dec 31, 2003)

What I read was 100 schools in "10" years, not one.

I don't know about their kenpo back ground, I was curious about that also. Someone told me they thought their kenpo back ground was maybe from the Tracey system. But I don't know.

I do know for a fact that one of the Kovars trains several hours every day and he is supposed to be very good. He brings in top instructors that he trains with privately in different styles. That could be why they looks like reality stuff now.

Anyway, do not doubt their ability or what they teach just because they are going to open a chain. Can they keep the quality of their instruction up with a chain of schools? Time will tell. But I believe they do teach a practical system, for todays world, that can work.

You get out of any art, what you put into it.

Teej
When one door closes, another door opens.


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## teamcalisc (Dec 28, 2004)

teej said:
			
		

> What I read was 100 schools in "10" years, not one.
> 
> I don't know about their kenpo back ground, I was curious about that also. Someone told me they thought their kenpo back ground was maybe from the Tracey system. But I don't know.
> 
> ...


As a Kovar's student, I have to say, what you guys think they are like isn't true. Yes, it's a lot of money to train at Kovar's, but it's worth every cent. I've been training there for 6 amazing years. The instructors are friendly and great at what they do. They know their ciriculum well so that they can teach us to do our best. Kovar's Kenpo isn't a form of maritail arts. The place is called Kovar's because the owner's last name is Kovar. There is no Kovar's from of martial arts. I'm not sure about the backround of the martial arts they teach. Every buisness wants you to pay. Just because the payments are high, doesn't mean they care more about your money than what they teach. Dave Kovar does personally train the instructors. He's a 7th degree black belt. I'm not sure who his instructor is but I can ask since I know both Kovar's. My dad has done buisness tades with them before. My parents own a ticket buisness where they buy, sell, and trade tickets to concerts, sports, etc. and they have traded tickets for karate lessons before with the Kovar's. As for the Kovar's demo team, it's the best in the area, maybe Northern California. The training to be on the team is long and hard. I'm currently training to be on the team along with a few others. The team instructor, Renshi Cali, is strict but nice. He knows our limits and pushes us till we reach it. As for the members of the demo team, their limits are higher than those training to be on the team because their conditioning is harder and longer. The demo team has won competition after competiton. They recently won 1st in the 10th Annual Clash of the Warriors competition in Lake Tahoe for, I believe, the fourth year in a row. If you have any questions about Kovar's, feel free to post in this board or just e-mail me at ellopoppet@hotmail.com. I'll be happy to answer your questions and if I don't know the answer, I can ask someone who does such as an instructor or Dave Kovar himself.


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## TheEdge883 (Dec 28, 2004)

I think everyone here is interested in what curriculum is taught at your school. Mayhap if you posted a little of what you are taught we'd be more informed of what you all do there


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## GAB (Dec 29, 2004)

Hi,

Dave Kovar is a good Martial Artist. He may be a better Businessman.

He was one of the highest Black Belts in Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo, taught by Hanshi Bruce Juchnik. 

He also has a certificate to teach what GGM J. Mitose taught. Not to many of them out there can claim that lineage, some don't want to. 

It has been stated in an earlier post about his skills, I will add, Hanshi is an excellent Martial Artist.


Regards, Gary


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 29, 2004)

http://kovars.cmasdirect.com/
that is their website
it says nothing about their style or SKSKI affiliation......
taken from the site:
"Internationaly recognized, Shihan Dave Kovar has his Black Belt in eight different styles, allowing him to design a Black Belt system that delivers to our students the best of multiple styles, making you, our student, the best of breed."

shawn


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## The Kai (Dec 29, 2004)

Hanshi Juchnik very good, impressive


Kovar karate, simply said go somewhere else
Demo team?  Let me guess XMA
Todd


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## teamcalisc (Dec 29, 2004)

TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> I think everyone here is interested in what curriculum is taught at your school. Mayhap if you posted a little of what you are taught we'd be more informed of what you all do there


Well right now, we're working on sais- I think that's how it's spelled. They are short metal weapons kinda shaped like big forks. I'm not sure on the form since I tested for my blackbelt when they started this cycle so I wasn't focusing on what they were doing and I got to train with an instructor just on what I needed to know for my test. We work in cycles. At the end of the cycle, we're tested on what we learned and if we pass, blackbelts get a chevron "check" (after earning 3 chevron checks, you earn a chevron, after earning so many chevrons, you can test for your next belt), lower belts get a "tip" (after so many tips, you can test). There is a belt testing after every cycle for those that can test but for black belts, you must go through a 3 month prep class (it's a once-a-week, 2 hour class) before you can test (the test is about 2 1/2-3 hours long, the ceremony is later that day and is 30 mins long). There is a blackbelt test every 3 months. There is a variety of things we learn at Kovar's. These range from forms (Justice, basic blocking set, targeting set, etc.), self-defence (seven swords, arm bar counters, evading the club, etc.), weapons (sticks, sais, bows, daggers, etc.), & combonations (beginer combo 1-2, and intermediate combo 1-6).  We also do jui jitsui (spelling?), and kick boxing in the adult class. Our demo team focuses on dinamic kicking, domino effects, weapons, etc. There are no classes this week due to the holidays but classes start up again next week and I'd be happy to ask my instructors any questions about the up-coming curiculum. But if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll tell you everything that I know. If you would like to see our demo team in action, we have a performance coming up on Friday, January 21. I'm not sure about the time but I know it takes place somewhere between the time of 5-6. It will take place at our Carmichael location. You can call the Carmichael location (the number is on the site- kovars.com) and ask to speak to Mr. Cali and he will know the time it will start. I don't know because I'll be there from 5-6 anyways because even though I'm only training to be on the team, I'll be performing. Since his son is in my training class, I'm sure Dave Kovar will be there and you can ask to speak to him about any questions you have. If not, the other instructors would love to help you out.


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## The Kai (Dec 29, 2004)

5 tips per belt
Chevron before you test
Black Belt testing every 3 months
Simplified curriculam
Xma demo team (domino effect is that like one moves right after the other starts?)
Cycle thru material every month
sounds like.......


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## TheEdge883 (Dec 29, 2004)

The site says you have a demo team that is comprised of brown and black belts. Do you have any black belts there who are under the age of 16? 
I don't doubt the quality of your instructor, I am highly suspect what is being taught. But then again, that's my opinion, and you know what everyone says about that


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## John Bishop (Dec 29, 2004)

One question that comes to mind is how you can train in a system for 6 years, become a black belt, and not know the origin of your system, and who your instructor learned from?


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## kelly keltner (Dec 29, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> One question that comes to mind is how you can train in a system for 6 years, become a black belt, and not know the origin of your system, and who your instructor learned from?


 This is one I gotta agree on. Mark it on the calander John.

kell


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## John Bishop (Dec 29, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> This is one I gotta agree on. Mark it on the calander John.
> 
> kell


Oh yea, I've marked it.  December 29, 2004


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## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

Shodan said:
			
		

> While driving home today, I noticed that there is a new studio going in right down the street from my house. It is Kovar's Karate. Does anyone know anything about this chain?
> 
> :asian:  :karate:


 
   Sorry to sound rude but why do people post stuff like this? You drove by the damn place.why didnt you go in and check it out instead of asking a bunch of folks on the internet?


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## The Kai (Dec 30, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> This is one I gotta agree on. Mark it on the calander John.
> 
> kell


I was a witness!
todd


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## GAB (Dec 30, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Sorry to sound rude but why do people post stuff like this? You drove by the damn place.why didnt you go in and check it out instead of asking a bunch of folks on the internet?


Well Robert there you go again trying to make some sort of sense regarding the activity of inquiring minds? Next thing I will read is, The Kai and I agree... 

Kelly you silver tounged devilartyon: and you told me it would never happen LOL...

Maybe you just have not been reading enough of the good stuff posted lately LOL...

Seriously though, for some reason you have seemed much more pliable as you are getting closer to middle age. No I don't want to fight you:uhyeah: ...

Regards, Gary


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## Shodan (Dec 30, 2004)

RRouuselot-

  Is there something wrong with asking the opinions of others here?  I thought that's what this forum was all about?  I like to know about a restaurant I haven't been to before I eat there too......if it's awful, why even bother going?

  Anyway, I found a place to go where I can work out with people from the same system I have been in all along so Kovar's wasn't needed anymore- I was just going to check that out as an alternative if I could not find my own system down here.

  I do appreciate everyone's input though.  Thank you!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

Shodan said:
			
		

> RRouuselot-
> 
> Is there something wrong with asking the opinions of others here? I thought that's what this forum was all about? I like to know about a restaurant I haven't been to before I eat there too......if it's awful, why even bother going?
> 
> ...


 
_*While driving home today, I noticed that there is a new studio going in right down the street from my house.  *_

_I will give you an example of what I am talking about:_



_*Hey there is a dog in my front yard! Anybody here on MT know anything about it?
*_

_Get my point?_


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## teamcalisc (Dec 30, 2004)

I don't know that stuff because I'm only 14 for christ's sake. I started when I was only 8. Do you think an 8 year old cares about that stuff. In my opinion, I don't care. I know I'm being taught by some of the best b/c I've know most of my instructors for years. I'm very close to them all. And it's not like we're tested on who Dave Kovar is trained by. I know they've mentioned it a few times but it's not something they mention every week. Yes, the domino effect is where it goes one person after the next (The Kai). TheEdge883, a good portion of the demo team members are around that age, a few are older than 16 and some are younger. In my training class, most of us are ALMOST 15 or 16. I think there's maybe one person that's 16. Maybe 2. But most of us are younger than 16. The avereage ratio is about 9-15. I think the youngest in my demo training class is either 8 or 9. John, you and the others reading this are probably older than I am. So many my age don't know and don't really care who Dave Kovar's trainer is. We're more interested in having fun and learning new things at karate. The reason why I don't know the origin is because we do a lot of different things there at Kovar's. And I'm not an instructor or anything so I have no real need to know. I'm not a martial arts master or anything like that. Just because you have a passion for something, doesn't mean you know or need to know everything about it. I hope that answered your question.


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## Shodan (Dec 30, 2004)

No RRouuselot, I don't get your point- sorry....maybe you can clarify it for me?

  I was asking about a martial arts studio that someone on a martial arts website might know something about.  I wouldn't ask someone on a martial arts site what they knew about some dog........not the same category of info......sorry, went right over my head?!!   :idunno:


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

Shodan said:
			
		

> No RRouuselot, I don't get your point- sorry....maybe you can clarify it for me?
> 
> I was asking about a martial arts studio that someone on a martial arts website might know something about. I wouldn't ask someone on a martial arts site what they knew about some dog........not the same category of info......sorry, went right over my head?!! :idunno:


 
 Let me repeat my point then....

 You drove by the damn place.why didnt you go in and check it out?

 Sorry, can't make it any simpler than that...........


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## Seig (Dec 31, 2004)

Gentlemen,
Let's tone it down. Not only are grown men swearing, but now we have a child getting wound up. 
Seig


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## Danjo (Dec 31, 2004)

teamcalisc said:
			
		

> I don't know that stuff because I'm only 14 for christ's sake. I started when I was only 8. Do you think an 8 year old cares about that stuff. In my opinion, I don't care. I know I'm being taught by some of the best b/c I've know most of my instructors for years. I'm very close to them all. And it's not like we're tested on who Dave Kovar is trained by. I know they've mentioned it a few times but it's not something they mention every week. Yes, the domino effect is where it goes one person after the next (The Kai). TheEdge883, a good portion of the demo team members are around that age, a few are older than 16 and some are younger. In my training class, most of us are ALMOST 15 or 16. I think there's maybe one person that's 16. Maybe 2. But most of us are younger than 16. The avereage ratio is about 9-15. I think the youngest in my demo training class is either 8 or 9. John, you and the others reading this are probably older than I am. So many my age don't know and don't really care who Dave Kovar's trainer is. We're more interested in having fun and learning new things at karate. The reason why I don't know the origin is because we do a lot of different things there at Kovar's. And I'm not an instructor or anything so I have no real need to know. I'm not a martial arts master or anything like that. Just because you have a passion for something, doesn't mean you know or need to know everything about it. I hope that answered your question.


14 year old black belt. ---sigh--- Good luck young man. Hopefully someday you will have a basis for comparison between your current art and others.


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## The Kai (Dec 31, 2004)

What happens when the art is'nt fun??  When it becomes work?  Or you get frustrated?


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## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> What happens when the art is'nt fun??  When it becomes work?  Or you get frustrated?


  Nothing is always fun.....kids even get bored with Disney after a while......
  This could be what is meant by the term "nintai"=      Perseverance in Japanese


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## teamcalisc (Dec 31, 2004)

Danjo said:
			
		

> 14 year old black belt. ---sigh--- Good luck young man. Hopefully someday you will have a basis for comparison between your current art and others.


Young *girl*. If I cared to compare my martial arts, I would know the origin and the answers to the questions you're asking. But my major concern is when I'll make it on the demo team and what we'll lean next cycle.


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## The Kai (Dec 31, 2004)

Hopefully it will be a depth in the arts -that would be new, history, terminology.  As a Black Belt there is a certain base you should have, one of them is knowing where your art lies with lineages and the scheme of things.  Terminology, simply put you should know how to spell the name of a weapon before you even pick it up (after all it is not a toy).  Contact drills, sparrinmaybe to illustrate the difference between GymKata and karate.
Ma'am
Todd


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## kenpo tiger (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Let me repeat my point then....
> 
> You drove by the damn place.why didnt you go in and check it out?
> 
> Sorry, can't make it any simpler than that...........


And since when is it wrong to ask around?  Shodan is utilizing our network --okay, I'll call it what it is -- Shodan is _networking_, a concept most of us in business use all the time.  Call it what you will, but it's a great resource.  I learned a lot from the various posts, as did Shodan and I'm sure plenty of others.

Lighten up, willya?


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Sorry to sound rude but why do people post stuff like this? You drove by the damn place.why didnt you go in and check it out instead of asking a bunch of folks on the internet?


Well...there are alot of talented and knowledgeable martial artists on the board who may have insight on the organization in question that cannot be obtained by simply walking in the door. If they're unscrupulous she won't get straight answers anyway and to try and research through the internet on something as objective as whether someone thinks somethings good or not doesn't help much either. So, when you want the real scoop you ask people you trust.


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## mj-hi-yah (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Sorry to sound rude but why do people post stuff like this? You drove by the damn place.why didnt you go in and check it out instead of asking a bunch of folks on the internet?


Going into a studio to check it out is certainly a reasonable way to get a feel for a place, but you may not get all the information you need to make an informed decision about a school or an instructor's credentials that way alone. Since there is no governing body regulating who can, and who can not, open a Martial Arts studio, I see nothing wrong in seeking a little information before stepping foot in a school. In addition, sometimes contracts must be signed from the start, and asking around on the internet is one way to get additional information about a school, or an instructor, before a long term commitment is made and regretfully can not be broken. There are many people who post on Martial Talk who have opinions that I've come to trust. Should one of them have positive or negative things to share on a school I was interested in it would help me to make my decision. The other thing is, Shodan is a woman and as a member of that species   I believe that women need to be more cautious about where they train in this male dominated martial arts world, so as not to be learning from an instructor who behaves inappropriately towards women. So while I agree that a visit to the school would be helpful, Shodan has every right to seek opinions here. At the very least it would not hurt her in her quest. :asian:


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## TheEdge883 (Dec 31, 2004)

teamcalisc said:
			
		

> TheEdge883, a good portion of the demo team members are around that age, a few are older than 16 and some are younger. In my training class, most of us are ALMOST 15 or 16. I think there's maybe one person that's 16. Maybe 2. But most of us are younger than 16. The avereage ratio is about 9-15. I think the youngest in my demo training class is either 8 or 9.



I really don't want you to think we are trying to start fights here. But you have to understand the concern of having an 8 or 9 year old who holds black belt ranks. This board is frequented by several high ranking black belts. I myself have been practicing the martial arts for about 10 years, have only reached the rank of 2nd black. But I can tell you I worked HARD for those 10 years to get where I am. Those who have put in the sweat, blood and tears to get where they are today take pride in those years.
We see schools like yours. 9 year old black belts, second and third degree black belts, some of those have only been studying for 2 or 3 years. Are you going to, with a straight face, tell me that that 9 year old third degree black belt knows more than me, who has lived longer than that kid has practiced, that he knows more about the martial arts, more about fighting than I do. I consider that insulting and downright demeaning, and most others will do the same.
What do you consider a black belt? What should the qualifications for a black belt be, in your own eyes?


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## TheEdge883 (Dec 31, 2004)

Too add on to my previous post: 

Like I said earlier, I don't doubt the quality of your instructor. Mr. Kovar sounds like a hell of a great fighter and an all around good guy. I'm positive that he has put in the time and effort to get to where he is today. But I have to question his motives. First, why does such a great instructor compromise everything he's learned and been taught like that? Second, why does he think a 9 year old have the same fighting skills and knowledge as he was when he was that rank? It leads me to believe that he has compromised the martial capability of his students just to win a few tournaments. 
So we all come back to my original point. Young Kids as black belts + tournament XMA team + high monthly training costs + an inordinate amount of belt tests just to earn a stripe + possible service agreements + pumping out black belts on a conveyor belt + the prospect of opening hundreds of schools in a year   ======   Mcdojo.


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## shesulsa (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> _*While driving home today, I noticed that there is a new studio going in right down the street from my house.  *_
> 
> _I will give you an example of what I am talking about:_
> 
> ...



Gosh.  I wonder if this is what I sound like before I've had my coffee in the morning?  Here, RR - have a 5 spot - go get yourself a venti on me, honey.

Shodan, I commend you for asking about a chain of schools before you waltz on in.  Walking through the door is half the battle for most dojos - once you're in the door, they can sell you the longest line of B.S. you've ever seen in your life and you'd think you bought a fox boa.

I'm always leery of any chain MA studios.  If you decide to go in, bring a barrell of salt and bring your X-ray glasses!

Happy New Year!


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## Ceicei (Dec 31, 2004)

teamcalisc said:
			
		

> As a Kovar's student, I have to say, what you guys think they are like isn't true. Yes, it's a lot of money to train at Kovar's, but it's worth every cent. I've been training there for 6 amazing years. The instructors are friendly and great at what they do.


 I am very glad you are enjoying what you do there. What you've just said are important to the study of martial arts.   Instructors make a big difference in whether the training is worthwhile.

 People join martial arts for various reasons. If Kovar's suit your needs now and you have improved as a result, then more power to you. I know you are young and that is fine. You will continue to learn more as you progress through life. 

 People starting young with martial arts and progressing through the years are a joy to watch! The changes with abilities and character are amazing. I have two sons (10 and 12 years old) who enjoy Kenpo and love what they do.

 There are various people on MartialTalk with differing opinions and thoughts. Stand strong. Be patient. Listen and keep an open mind. As a junior black belt, you have progressed through the years and earned that. You do know already that the junior black belt is not the same as the senior black belt. If you hang in there and study hard, learning through life and your interactions with people, you will someday receive the senior black belt.

  That said, Welcome to MartialTalk!!!

  - Ceicei


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## Michael Billings (Dec 31, 2004)

Please, keep the conversation polite, respectful, and watch the sarcasm.

  -Michael Billings
  -MT S. Moderator-


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## TheEdge883 (Dec 31, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Please, keep the conversation polite, respectful, and watch the sarcasm.
> 
> -Michael Billings
> -MT S. Moderator-



Sorry about that, I tried not to sound too bad.


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## Gin-Gin (Dec 31, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Going into a studio to check it out is certainly a reasonable way to get a feel for a place, but you may not get all the information you need to make an informed decision about a school or an instructor's credentials that way alone. Since there is no governing body regulating who can, and who cannot, open a Martial Arts studio, I see nothing wrong in seeking a little information before stepping foot in a school. In addition, sometimes contracts must be signed from the start, and asking around on the internet is one way to get additional information about a school, or an instructor, before a long term commitment is made and regretfully can not be broken. There are many people who post on Martial Talk who have opinions that I've come to trust. Should one of them have positive or negative things to share on a school I was interested in it would help me to make my decision. The other thing is, Shodan is a woman and as a member of that species   I believe that women need to be more cautious about where they train in this male dominated martial arts world, so as not to be learning from an instructor who behaves inappropriately towards women. So while I agree that a visit to the school would be helpful, Shodan has every right to seek opinions here. At the very least it would not hurt her in her quest. :asian:


*Ditto!* My thoughts exactly. 

Respectfully,
Gin-Gin :asian:


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## TigerWoman (Dec 31, 2004)

I wish I had known about this site but it didn't exist 8 years ago, I don't believe.  There is a wealth of information here from fellow martial artists, the best source to find out about schools before hearing the school propaganda.  

I asked the same question to the forum for my daughter for a Kung Fu school.  She went into that school as a TKD blackbelt already, asked questions and got suckered into joining for six months and automatic payments. When I questioned a further contract and asked everyone here, she quit that school and got out but not without payments.  I wish she had asked me and the forum before hand, just as Shodan had the foresight to do.  Sounds like she is pretty smart to do so before entering the doors.TW


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 31, 2004)

"I wish I had known about this site but it didn't exist 8 years ago, I don't believe."
MT Went live August 2001.


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## TigerWoman (Dec 31, 2004)

So MartialTalk has been on for only 3 1/2 years.  Now I don't feel so bad.  I wasn't internet savvy then!   TW


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## teamcalisc (Jan 1, 2005)

TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> I really don't want you to think we are trying to start fights here. But you have to understand the concern of having an 8 or 9 year old who holds black belt ranks. This board is frequented by several high ranking black belts. I myself have been practicing the martial arts for about 10 years, have only reached the rank of 2nd black. But I can tell you I worked HARD for those 10 years to get where I am. Those who have put in the sweat, blood and tears to get where they are today take pride in those years.
> We see schools like yours. 9 year old black belts, second and third degree black belts, some of those have only been studying for 2 or 3 years. Are you going to, with a straight face, tell me that that 9 year old third degree black belt knows more than me, who has lived longer than that kid has practiced, that he knows more about the martial arts, more about fighting than I do. I consider that insulting and downright demeaning, and most others will do the same.
> What do you consider a black belt? What should the qualifications for a black belt be, in your own eyes?


I don't mean to insult you. That isn't my motive. I was surfing around and came upon this board about Kovar's. I feel as a student, it's my responsibility to defend my dojo when I see it being discussed by others who don't attend the school. I just want to tell you guys what it's really like at Kovar's. There are no 3rd degree black belts at Kovar's who are anywhere under 14. I don't think there are any 3rd degree black belts that are 14 or 15. It takes 4+ years at Kovar's to earn your black belt, minimum. It took me about 4 years. But that's also after you go through the actual black belt test. It's not a piece of cake, even for younger students. They work you to your best ability. I do realize that the expansion makes it seem like a "mcdojo," but have any of you actually considered the idea of maybe doing a trial to see for yourself what it's really like there? They have this program where you can get a month of lessons for free. I suggest trying it out.Our young students TRAINING to be on the demo team, are actually pretty good. They aren't great but keep in mind there is no certain amount of time you must train to make it on the Kovar's demo team. The instructor will know when you're ready. I've been training to be on the team for about a year now and I'm still not on. The younger students won't make it on the team any time sooner before the older students becuase they're less ready than we are. No one in my class has made it on the team yet. There is one girl who is almost ready to join the team. She trains extra hard in my class and then trains WITH the demo team. So back to your post, You are better than the younger students. You train harder, you sweat and bleed more than they do, but keep in mind, they have lower limitations than you. They haven't trained as long as you. They're just little kids. I'm trying to explain this to you the best I can but I think it's just our human nature. It's easier to understand a younger person if you are closer to their age. So sorry if youon't understand me.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 1, 2005)

teamcalisc said:
			
		

> I don't mean to insult you. That isn't my motive. I was surfing around and came upon this board about Kovar's. I feel as a student, it's my responsibility to defend my dojo when I see it being discussed by others who don't attend the school. I just want to tell you guys what it's really like at Kovar's. There are no 3rd degree black belts at Kovar's who are anywhere under 14. I don't think there are any 3rd degree black belts that are 14 or 15. It takes 4+ years at Kovar's to earn your black belt, minimum. It took me about 4 years. But that's also after you go through the actual black belt test. It's not a piece of cake, even for younger students. They work you to your best ability. I do realize that the expansion makes it seem like a "mcdojo," but have any of you actually considered the idea of maybe doing a trial to see for yourself what it's really like there? They have this program where you can get a month of lessons for free. I suggest trying it out.Our young students TRAINING to be on the demo team, are actually pretty good. They aren't great but keep in mind there is no certain amount of time you must train to make it on the Kovar's demo team. The instructor will know when you're ready. I've been training to be on the team for about a year now and I'm still not on. The younger students won't make it on the team any time sooner before the older students becuase they're less ready than we are. No one in my class has made it on the team yet. There is one girl who is almost ready to join the team. She trains extra hard in my class and then trains WITH the demo team. So back to your post, You are better than the younger students. You train harder, you sweat and bleed more than they do, but keep in mind, they have lower limitations than you. They haven't trained as long as you. They're just little kids. I'm trying to explain this to you the best I can but I think it's just our human nature. It's easier to understand a younger person if you are closer to their age. So sorry if youon't understand me.


I think what I'm most impressed with is your writing and spelling skills at 14, it shows intelligence and that means a lot to me. Sure, you're not training at a hardcore self-defense school, and some would consider that a McDojo. Me, I'm not happy till there's blood on the mats after a sparring class LOL, but not everyone is willing to train that way, nor do they need to. Keep up the hard work and let us know when you make the demo team.

DarK LorD


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## Danjo (Jan 1, 2005)

teamcalisc said:
			
		

> I don't mean to insult you. That isn't my motive. I was surfing around and came upon this board about Kovar's. I feel as a student, it's my responsibility to defend my dojo when I see it being discussed by others who don't attend the school. I just want to tell you guys what it's really like at Kovar's. There are no 3rd degree black belts at Kovar's who are anywhere under 14. I don't think there are any 3rd degree black belts that are 14 or 15. It takes 4+ years at Kovar's to earn your black belt, minimum. It took me about 4 years. But that's also after you go through the actual black belt test. It's not a piece of cake, even for younger students. They work you to your best ability. I do realize that the expansion makes it seem like a "mcdojo," but have any of you actually considered the idea of maybe doing a trial to see for yourself what it's really like there? They have this program where you can get a month of lessons for free. I suggest trying it out.Our young students TRAINING to be on the demo team, are actually pretty good. They aren't great but keep in mind there is no certain amount of time you must train to make it on the Kovar's demo team. The instructor will know when you're ready. I've been training to be on the team for about a year now and I'm still not on. The younger students won't make it on the team any time sooner before the older students becuase they're less ready than we are. No one in my class has made it on the team yet. There is one girl who is almost ready to join the team. She trains extra hard in my class and then trains WITH the demo team. So back to your post, You are better than the younger students. You train harder, you sweat and bleed more than they do, but keep in mind, they have lower limitations than you. They haven't trained as long as you. They're just little kids. I'm trying to explain this to you the best I can but I think it's just our human nature. It's easier to understand a younger person if you are closer to their age. So sorry if youon't understand me.


Sorry for the "young Man" earlier. I was not able to tell one wway or the other and so, like many men my age, I made a fairly sexist assumption. 

As to the other stuff, well, I do not doubt your sincerity in the least. You sound enthusiastic and determined. My earlier point about basis for comparison has to do with your statements about how good your instructors are etc. How would you know? All you know is what you have experienced and it sounds as if your experience is limited to Kovar's. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy it etc., but rather that there are those of us who have trained in more than one type of setting and have opinions about the type of schools that you describe belonging to. Demo teams, to me, are fluff. They could also be considered a bit dishonest. Here's why: You are a black belt in your school and have been one for two years. However, even though you have trained for over a year trying to get on the demo team, you're still not considered good enough by your instructor. This tells me that your instructor does not want the public at large to see what the skills of the average black belt are from his school. That means that only a very select group of people will be allowed to represent what your school teaches to the public. Why? Why does the instructor not want the public to see the skills of a two year black belt? What is your instructor trying to sell the public on? It is not just your school that does this, so please don't think I'm picking on your's. It's a principle in general from the type of schools you describe. I really do hope that you get to explore other schools and style some time. You might be surprised by what you find out there. Good luck.


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## teamcalisc (Jan 1, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Sorry for the "young Man" earlier. I was not able to tell one wway or the other and so, like many men my age, I made a fairly sexist assumption.
> 
> As to the other stuff, well, I do not doubt your sincerity in the least. You sound enthusiastic and determined. My earlier point about basis for comparison has to do with your statements about how good your instructors are etc. How would you know? All you know is what you have experienced and it sounds as if your experience is limited to Kovar's. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy it etc., but rather that there are those of us who have trained in more than one type of setting and have opinions about the type of schools that you describe belonging to. Demo teams, to me, are fluff. They could also be considered a bit dishonest. Here's why: You are a black belt in your school and have been one for two years. However, even though you have trained for over a year trying to get on the demo team, you're still not considered good enough by your instructor. This tells me that your instructor does not want the public at large to see what the skills of the average black belt are from his school. That means that only a very select group of people will be allowed to represent what your school teaches to the public. Why? Why does the instructor not want the public to see the skills of a two year black belt? What is your instructor trying to sell the public on? It is not just your school that does this, so please don't think I'm picking on your's. It's a principle in general from the type of schools you describe. I really do hope that you get to explore other schools and style some time. You might be surprised by what you find out there. Good luck.


Thank you. I do agree with your statement about the demo team. I kinda find it stupid how they do that but the team I'm training to be on isn't the only demo team we have. Kovar's is creating demo teams for each school. But the Red and Black Attack, the main, tougher one, will always be compromised of the best black belts. Where as the others will be compromised as the average students. The others varry in belts such as blue and red and a few black. They're not as large and probably won't compete as much or perform as much and the Red and Black Attack but they're our more average students.

P.S. Thanx for the comment about my writing skills. My old English teacher from last year would be proud to hear that! Happy New Year everyone!


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## FUZZYJ692000 (Jan 4, 2005)

teamcalisc said:
			
		

> I don't mean to insult you. That isn't my motive. I was surfing around and came upon this board about Kovar's. I feel as a student, it's my responsibility to defend my dojo when I see it being discussed by others who don't attend the school. I just want to tell you guys what it's really like at Kovar's. There are no 3rd degree black belts at Kovar's who are anywhere under 14. I don't think there are any 3rd degree black belts that are 14 or 15. It takes 4+ years at Kovar's to earn your black belt, minimum. It took me about 4 years. But that's also after you go through the actual black belt test. It's not a piece of cake, even for younger students. They work you to your best ability. I do realize that the expansion makes it seem like a "mcdojo," but have any of you actually considered the idea of maybe doing a trial to see for yourself what it's really like there? They have this program where you can get a month of lessons for free. I suggest trying it out.Our young students TRAINING to be on the demo team, are actually pretty good. They aren't great but keep in mind there is no certain amount of time you must train to make it on the Kovar's demo team. The instructor will know when you're ready. I've been training to be on the team for about a year now and I'm still not on. The younger students won't make it on the team any time sooner before the older students becuase they're less ready than we are. No one in my class has made it on the team yet. There is one girl who is almost ready to join the team. She trains extra hard in my class and then trains WITH the demo team. So back to your post, You are better than the younger students. You train harder, you sweat and bleed more than they do, but keep in mind, they have lower limitations than you. They haven't trained as long as you. They're just little kids. I'm trying to explain this to you the best I can but I think it's just our human nature. It's easier to understand a younger person if you are closer to their age. So sorry if youon't understand me.



teamcalisc, i think we all get a little defensive when it comes to the system that we study and whom we study under.  i must applaud you for how well you are responding to this thread considering your age.  but don't read into this thread too much.  you can learn a lot of interesting things not only from your own system but from others as well.  i haven't been studying very long in Kenpo either, about 4 yrs or so.  i think the part that some people on here are wondering is how it is that your instructors don't tell you guys things like how their system originated.  our younger kids know that in our system.  we ask them those types of questions while their doing kicking or punching drills.  and it's kind of ironic that you refer to the 6-9 yr. olds as the young kids.  something that i've learned on this board is that there are people who have been studying different arts for 20 + yrs so to them you and i are still kids to them.  and just like a kid, we are still learning.  that never stops even when you reach your black belt you should still want to learn as much as you can.  because then when people as you explain to me how your system originated, what is the curriculum and what not you can answer them clearly where they can't come back and say that doesn't make sense or "Mcdojo" and what not.  that's why learning things like that is important.  plus you can always learn from the past and apply it to the present and future.   :asian: 

-keep up the good spirit, you seem like you really enjoy what you're doing


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## Michael Billings (Jan 5, 2005)

This is in not intended as a slam of Mr. Kovar. I do not know him, nor have I ever seen his students. This is more in the way of a perspective of the progress I see, or I don't see, in the quality of student in today's Kenpo World.

 When looking at the big picture there is so much varience from school to school, association to association, instructor to instructor, that it is hard to find a "norm." Are we doing Chinese or Tracy Kenpo, are we doing a more Japanese Kempo system, is it a Kajukembo derivitive system? If it is Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate, what is the curriculum and when did they pull their belt requirements from the IKKA? 

 4 years may seem like a huge amount of time to a teenager or young adult, but compared to a lifetime of training, it is very little. The fastest I have seen anyone promoted to Black was 4-1/2 years ... and that was one very talented individual with nothing else to do but train all day ... literally. Then it is much more common to see an average 6-8 years to Black. There is and was, a huge volumn of material in the Chinese/Traco model way back then. Now I teach EPAK (and have for the past 18 years), which does not include the Chinese Kenpo years, and I still have only a few adult Black Belts. I have some older teenagers, 16 and 17 year olds, getting close but they have been with me since they were 9 years old. 

 There can be a Junior's version of the material, which allows kid's to progress faster with less material and maybe get a Junior or Provisional Black Belt, but at some point they have to step up into the realm of adult material. This does not mean there are no teenagers who could be, and are great (especially if Dad owns the school), you can live, eat, and breath Kenpo if given the opportunity ... but 4 years? I would need to know the curriculum, instructor, and assess for myself the quality of instruction and more importantly, the students.

  -Michael


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## teamcalisc (Jan 7, 2005)

I do realize that you guys aren't trying to "bash" Mr. Kovar. They have told us about the origination, but with school and everything else, it's a little hard to remember everything like that with science always getting in the way. I also found the cirriculum on the site:

"Kovars Martial Arts incorporates a combination of techniques and principles from a variety of Martial Arts styles including Kenpo Karate, Kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Arnis, Kobudo, Wing Chun and weapons all of which provide our students with a well-balanced, "street smart" self-defense system."

So I hope that answers your question.


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## The Kai (Jan 8, 2005)

Actually not at all, kind of vauge.
Todd


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## teamcalisc (Jan 9, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actually not at all, kind of vauge.
> Todd


Well, I wish I could help out but maybe it'd be best if you did some digging of your own. I'm sure the Kovar's or one of the instructors would be glad to answer your questions over the phone or in person.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 28, 2005)

teamcalisc said:
			
		

> I don't know that stuff because I'm only 14 for christ's sake. I started when I was only 8. Do you think an 8 year old cares about that stuff. In my opinion, I don't care. I know I'm being taught by some of the best b/c I've know most of my instructors for years. I'm very close to them all. And it's not like we're tested on who Dave Kovar is trained by. I know they've mentioned it a few times but it's not something they mention every week. Yes, the domino effect is where it goes one person after the next (The Kai). TheEdge883, a good portion of the demo team members are around that age, a few are older than 16 and some are younger. In my training class, most of us are ALMOST 15 or 16. I think there's maybe one person that's 16. Maybe 2. But most of us are younger than 16. The avereage ratio is about 9-15. I think the youngest in my demo training class is either 8 or 9. John, you and the others reading this are probably older than I am. So many my age don't know and don't really care who Dave Kovar's trainer is. We're more interested in having fun and learning new things at karate. The reason why I don't know the origin is because we do a lot of different things there at Kovar's. And I'm not an instructor or anything so I have no real need to know. I'm not a martial arts master or anything like that. Just because you have a passion for something, doesn't mean you know or need to know everything about it. I hope that answered your question.


I think that the fact that you've perserved in your art for six years, earned a Black Belt, and have qualified for a special Demo Team all by the age of 14 speaks volumes for your character and perserverance. IMHO, you should be congratulated by the other members not called onto the carpet for not having a perfect memory of your instructor's lineage. The questions asked of you are valid, just that IMHO, some of the forum members have been a little too harsh in their judgements and comments toward you.

For the others, I studied for a short, emphasis on short, time in the mid-1980s's at Dave Kovar's orginal Rancho Cordova studio. At the time he was teaching an unafilliated Tracy style Kenpo but was also studying from GM Jhoon Rhee of TKD fame and was incorporating the kicks, physical excercises and life lessons on character and integrity offered by Master Rhee's programs.

My experience at his studio,a albeit short (Green Belt), was positive and since I was then coming out of a factory sport TKD center, the greatest value of his instruction for me was in learning how much I DIDN'T KNOW.

Now, about 20 years later and much more experienced, I would rate his training about midway between a strip mall sport's school and an old style traditional EPK program. BTW, Bob Liles in Sacramento, according to a friend who studied from him, is friends with Mister Kovar and Mr. Kovar has even taught some workshops at Mr. Liles school. Since, any knowledgable EPAK Kenpo stylist knows that Mr. Liles credentials are impeccable, I think this is an important point in establishing Mr. Kovar's Bona Fides.


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