# would you do this??



## lonekimono10 (Aug 16, 2005)

http://www.nbc10.com/news/4855860/detail.html

check this out, in all my years i of teaching i never would think of doing this


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## ppko (Aug 16, 2005)

No I would never do that, if the children are that unruly than they are not ready to train or she has not done her job in showing them respect from day one.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

This instructor apparently has some serious issues!  She should not even call herself a Martial Artist.  Its bad enough there are fakes in the arts, without having people abuse kids like that.


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 16, 2005)

Hey mike her dojo is not that far away from me, it's in Delaware


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Hey mike her dojo is not that far away from me, it's in Delaware




And if we're lucky it won't be there much longer.  It would be kind of hard to teach from jail, which is where she needs to be.


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## ppko (Aug 16, 2005)

I propose a move to horror stories.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

* Mod Note

Thread moved to Horror Stories

MJS
MT MOD*


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 16, 2005)

Wow.  I read this thread and thought the instructor had beat the daylights out of the kids.  This was how the reactions "sounded" if there is such a thing on the forums.  Then I read it was the old "tape accross the mouth" routine.  Yeah we do that all the time here.  What's the problem?

OK, now that the comedy is over with.  LOL.  That is definitely strange.  I'm not sure I would classify that as abuse but definitely there must be better ways.  I remember in grade school the teachers had permission from the parents to use masking tape on the mouths and rulers on the palms to enforce discipline as necessary.  Almost no unruly children then.  Then one parent complained, they took that 'authority' away and now I've seen multiple incidents of the students abusing the teachers instead.  But I must admit I'd rather see my son with duct tape on his mouth than what I've seen in ALOT of martial arts schools.  Students act unruly then the instructor "spars" with the students to justify beating the some sense into them.  I'll take the tape for my kid over a physical beating from an aggravated adult hiding behind a black belt anyday.  Or I'd just as well take neither.

BOTTOM LINE people are saying "hope she's put out of business!"  From the way I've seen things done around here (impromptu sparring lessons, sudden weapon defense lessons against rubber sticks that still hurt, instructors suddenly doing techniques with the kids and coincidentally only the unruly ones, etc.) it could have been ALOT worse.  The kids could have been *physically abused* *under the guise of martial arts training*.  Something that the instructor is pretty well protected in doing by that *liability waiver* most parents signed.  After all it is a contact activity right?  Food for thought.  From my experience the tape is still WRONG, but it's tame by comparison to what I've seen and continue to see.  And some of the reactions are a little extreme as I'm sure I'm not the only one who's seen what I've mentioned and I know it's not isolated to the Maryland-Virginia area.  Thoughts?

Respectfully,
James


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 16, 2005)

I'll take the tape for my kid over a physical beating 

  Respectfully,
  James[/QUOTE] I hear what you say james , but what about the child (bad or not) that when you put that tape over his/her mouth and than they get even more upset because they can't breath,and it's the age thing here also.
  there is only one word i know for her " what a momaluke"


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Wow.  I read this thread and thought the instructor had beat the daylights out of the kids.  This was how the reactions "sounded" if there is such a thing on the forums.  Then I read it was the old "tape accross the mouth" routine.  Yeah we do that all the time here.  What's the problem?
> 
> OK, now that the comedy is over with.  LOL.  That is definitely strange.  I'm not sure I would classify that as abuse but definitely there must be better ways.  I remember in grade school the teachers had permission from the parents to use masking tape on the mouths and rulers on the palms to enforce discipline as necessary.  Almost no unruly children then.  Then one parent complained, they took that 'authority' away and now I've seen multiple incidents of the students abusing the teachers instead.  But I must admit I'd rather see my son with duct tape on his mouth than what I've seen in ALOT of martial arts schools.  Students act unruly then the instructor "spars" with the students to justify beating the some sense into them.  I'll take the tape for my kid over a physical beating from an aggravated adult hiding behind a black belt anyday.  Or I'd just as well take neither.
> 
> ...



You bring up some good points James.  I remember my Mom telling me stories of the teachers back then.  I also remember my Grandfather, who is a retired Police Officer, telling me stories of how prisoners would get some "jailhouse discipline" when they were being brought in to be booked.  Like you said though, the times have changed.  You're correct, abuse is often disguised but regardless it is still wrong.  I still think that there is a difference between taping a childs mouth and putting a little juice behind a shot to get a point across in a sparring match.  Have I added in some juice? Sure, but not with a child.  And I certainly did not use that time during sparring to beat the person to a bloody heap either. Some people just dont get the message...does that mean I should keep hitting them harder and harder? If the student didn't get the message, they were done with sparring for the day.  If it continued, they were not allowed to spar.  Part of the arts is self control.  I'd rather see the child do pushups, sit down for a few, etc., than get tape across their mouth.  If someone is that unruly, and its causing that much of a disruption in class, their money is not worth the headaches.  

Bottom line:  This is 2005, not 1900.  The times have changed and people need to be aware of that.  Abuse and the like, is not tolerated like it was back in the day.  That being said, this instructor needs to catch up with the times.

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 16, 2005)

KenpoJuJitsu3 said:
			
		

> I'll take the tape for my kid over a physical beating
> 
> Respectfully,
> James


I hear what you say james , but what about the child (bad or not) that when you put that tape over his/her mouth and than they get even more upset because they can't breath,and it's the age thing here also.
there is only one word i know for her " what a momaluke"

"Or I'd just as well take neither."

from my previous post.


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## rutherford (Aug 16, 2005)

The kids were 4-6 years old, which means they probably couldn't get the tape off themselves and would have likely started crying immediately.

No, I wouldn't have done it.


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## DavidCC (Aug 16, 2005)

If my daughter was at that school, that woman would have to do some sparring... with me!


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> You bring up some good points James. I remember my Mom telling me stories of the teachers back then. I also remember my Grandfather, who is a retired Police Officer, telling me stories of how prisoners would get some "jailhouse discipline" when they were being brought in to be booked. Like you said though, the times have changed. You're correct, abuse is often disguised but regardless it is still wrong. *I still think that there is a difference between taping a childs mouth and putting a little juice behind a shot to get a point across in a sparring match. Have I added in some juice? Sure, but not with a child.* And I certainly did not use that time during sparring to beat the person to a bloody heap either. Some people just dont get the message...does that mean I should keep hitting them harder and harder? If the student didn't get the message, they were done with sparring for the day. If it continued, they were not allowed to spar. Part of the arts is self control. I'd rather see the child do pushups, sit down for a few, etc., than get tape across their mouth. If someone is that unruly, and its causing that much of a disruption in class, their money is not worth the headaches.
> 
> Bottom line: This is 2005, not 1900. The times have changed and people need to be aware of that. Abuse and the like, is not tolerated like it was back in the day. That being said, this instructor needs to catch up with the times.
> 
> Mike


That's my point exactly.  I said it was wrong plain and simple in my previous point.  But I wanted to bring to light some WORSE things than that one since people were so outraged with a child getting taped and upset.  How about a child getting beaten and hurt?  That's WORSE than being UPSET but these things aren't mentioned too much if at all.  And like you said "adding juice" to get a point across.  That's what I'm talking about when I see instructors "sparring" unruly children, adding juice to hit the child to prove a point about something the CHILD did wrong.  Just using this story to open discussion on other forms of DOJO ABUSE that people may or may not be aware of.  But don't misread, *THE TAPE WAS/IS WRONG, IT'S ALSO TAME BY COMPARISON TO WHAT I'VE SEEN HAPPEN ON A FAIRLY REGULAR BASIS WHERE AS THE TAPE IS* (hopefully) *AN ISOLATED INCIDENT*.

P.S. not shouting, just emphasizing key points for the forum "skimmers"


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 16, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> If my daughter was at that school, that woman would have to do some sparring... with me!


would this be with pads or are "back alley brawl" rules in effect? LOL


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## Blindside (Aug 16, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> there is only one word i know for her " what a momaluke"



????

Mameluk/Mamluk?  Slave soldier of the Ottoman empire?  I don't understand the reference.

Lamont


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## searcher (Aug 16, 2005)

This is another black eye for the martial arts.   It is insane for anybody to do crazy crap like that, no matter what the reasoning.   She needs to be locked up.


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 16, 2005)

just to clear something up here it was me who said "what a momaluke " not the other guy
  i see that he has a ouote with that saying, but it was me saying it to him about that lady 
  with the tape.


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## still learning (Aug 16, 2005)

Hello, It is hard to be perfect teacher and perfect student.  We do things from what we had learned.

 Our past sometimes show up in the present.  

 I heard crazy glue works better than tape?   ....can we get some feedback on this......................Aloha


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## arnisador (Aug 17, 2005)

There has got to be a better way than duct-taping people.


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## Blindside (Aug 17, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> just to clear something up here it was me who said "what a momaluke " not the other guy i see that he has a ouote with that saying, but it was me saying it to him about that lady with the tape.



Whoops, that is correct, but the question still stands, I don't understand your reference, what does a "momaluke" mean?

Thanks,

Lamont


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## hong kong fooey (Feb 3, 2006)

thats just crazy. she should not be teaching


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## Sam (Feb 3, 2006)

I dunno guys, it was just some tape.

I mean, I'm not saying that was an okay thing to do, but I certainly don't think it's cause to go to jail or something.

As for a 4-6 year old not being able to pull tape off.... You have to be kidding. Unless she put like 3 pieces vertically and 3 horizontally, there's no reason they couldnt pull it off. Sure, it might sting a little, but if they couldnt breathe they would do it.

A 4 year old doesnt have the cordination or strength a 6 or 10 year old would, but they arnet completely helpless.

It was totally wrong, but this seems blown out of proportion to me.


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## rutherford (Feb 3, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> As for a 4-6 year old not being able to pull tape off.... You have to be kidding. Unless she put like 3 pieces vertically and 3 horizontally, there's no reason they couldnt pull it off. Sure, it might sting a little, but if they couldnt breathe they would do it.


 
My eldest daughter is 1 month from five.  And I own duct tape.  I'm pretty sure she couldn't get it off.  But I think trying it out would be pretty sick.

Don't defend this person, Sam.  There's no good in it.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 3, 2006)

If the kids where so unruly that they where spiting at others and could not be controlled they do not belong in a martial arts class.
What do you think they do with their training, not hurt others.
The instructor was wrong, the parents should be ashamed of their kids, the parents should disiplaine their kids ( th old fashion way) IMHO


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## Kacey (Feb 3, 2006)

Being a school teacher in addition to a TKD instructor, I find her behavior unacceptable.  If the students could not manage the basic discipline of class (and not spitting at people is pretty basic), especially after multiple acceptable methods of discipline were tried (e.g. verbal reminders, pushups, time outs, etc), then they should not have been allowed to stay in the class.  That's it.

While I understand the impulse (I've had the impulse a few times myself, teaching middle school) to tape a child's mouth, I would never do so.  I know too much about the risks that accompany restricting breathing, especially in children that age, who can easily become hysterical - once they start crying, mucous would fill their noses and breathing would become difficult, if not impossible - thus, it is a health hazard, and a potentially serious one.

I am, I think, most concerned by Young's statement "I don't feel as though I did anything wrong" - potential physical complications aside, this woman chose a means of discipline that, at its root, is humiliation.  This is a horrible way to teach discipline; it teaches children that humiliating someone is an acceptable response to improper behavior.  That is not a lesson I would want to teach, nor do I think it would be effective in the long run.


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## bluemtn (Feb 3, 2006)

I know it's not easy to teach (especially) that age group, but you should be able to keep a good command on the class.  Obviously, she had no decent controll on them, and I don't think she should teach again.  If the kids still don't behave after warnings and the usual form of disciplines, send them home.


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## Cujo (Feb 5, 2006)

No way! If you can't control the kid's in the class, call the parents and relate the problem. If that doesn't solve the problem, suspend them from class for a period of time or bar them if the behavior is bad enough.

Pax
Cujo


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