# Have you learned any thing??



## Jenna (Jun 3, 2015)

I am interested to know of any one here.. 

What has doing your MA taught you about your self as a person?  

And if the answer is not a thing or you do not much care or MA has no business teaching me about my self as a person, I would also be interested to know because I am not certain whether other practitioners stop to evaluate personal self learnings from their MA or is it just me.. 

Thank you very much for your input, Jxx


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## donald1 (Jun 3, 2015)

Yep ive learned lots of things. Enough where if I written it down it would be a really long paragraph or an essay . (5 years of learning) and still going


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## Andrew Green (Jun 3, 2015)

Sure, plenty.  Then again I own a school, so saying martial arts shaped me a little is rather obvious.

But martial arts changes people, sometimes in a small way, sometimes in a big way.  

But how it changes you depends on how you approach it and the culture of your school.  I've seen martial arts give people confidence, I've seen it help people quit smoking, quit drugs, I've seen it keep people out of gangs, I've seen it help get anxiety under control, help manage ADHD, help people manage stress (not just release it, but control it).  

Of course it can go the other way too, in a negative environment it can make a person have a inflated ego, make them super competitive, paranoid of random attacks, etc.

Having some sort of school philosophy that promotes a healthy mindset, positive attitude and aspirational messages (as oppose to fear based) is important.


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## Jenna (Jun 3, 2015)

@donald1 Thank you for your reply! Goodness yes I am sure you have learned many things over 5 years though what have you learned specifically about your self?  Let me ask it differently, have you found out any thing about your self as a person that you maybe did not even know before you began 5 yr ago?? Thank you, Jx

@Andrew Green thank you Andrew.  It sounds like you walk the walk as an instructor and owner I have no doubt from those many cases you have hinted at that you have seen the worth of your art as more than just a fighting form.  I wonder beyond this Andrew either of you your self or of those you have trained, what personal changes have happened.  For example, if a student has been able to control anxiety (which is absolutely fantastic btw!) what is the learning that that person has gained specifically about them selves?  Forgive me if this is unclear.. I know what I am trying to ask.. I hope it come across! Thank you again, Jxx


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## Danny T (Jun 3, 2015)

Can't say that I have learned much about myself as a person but without the martial arts I truly believe I would not be the person I am today. It is what I have gained and how I have changed that is more important. I have learned a lot about my body and over the years how much it has changed due to the aging process and injuries. The training when it is good, if one stays with it long enough, will transform the individual.


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## Jenna (Jun 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Can't say that I have learned much about myself as a person but without the martial arts I truly believe I would not be the person I am today. It is what I have gained and how I have changed that is more important. I have learned a lot about my body and over the years how much it has changed due to the aging process and injuries. The training when it is good, if one stays with it long enough, will transform the individual.


Great reply Danny  I am getting a real sense of the transformation in you through your MA.  I am really interested in the positive aspects of this.  It sounds from here as if you have an inkling of the kind of person you *might* have been had you NOT done your MA?  In what way do you imagine todays MA-trained version of you might differ from the you back then who would not have done MA? Thank you, Jx


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## Danny T (Jun 3, 2015)

I would probably be either dead or incarcerated.
Suffered with ptsd for years, hid it for a number of years. As anger and violent tendencies manifested the martial arts was a tremendous asset and release. Today I am a calm, patient, happy go luck yet responsible me and I strongly believe it is because of the martial art lifestyle I have lived.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 3, 2015)

I have learned many things about myself in my time in the arts. 
I have learned I have little tolerance for bullies, and frauds.
I have learned that I will instruct a child or an adult if they are willing to learn but have no patience for those that do not listen or think they know more about what I'm teaching than I do
I have learned my personality changes when I do not practice  ( his has been confirmed by family and friends as well as fellow workers)
I have learned I will learn from almost anyone who has knowledge to pass on
I have learned Im not as young as I was once and my body dose not seem to want to do some of the things I want it to anymore
I have found some of my closest and dearest friends in the arts as well as a couple people that I truly hate (no I will not given reasons for this)
I have learned that hard work is rewarded and that sometimes sweet and blood is required to learn ( many mistakes have lead to me bleeding)
I have learned people can say anything but sometimes it is only words or boasting and sometimes just pure BS
there is more but this is enough for now


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 3, 2015)

I forgot to mention I learned that if there is only one changing room for both men and woman you really should know who is in there before entering and changing ( no I differently will not tell this story over the internet)


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 3, 2015)

I have learned a LOT of patience
I have learned that I have the confidence to lead a class
I have learned that in order to lead - you have to follow
I have learned that until a kid trusts you, they won't listen to you
I have learned that I am capable of more than I ever thought possible
Most importantly - after getting jumped almost 12 years ago - I have learned to stare fear in the eye and fight back


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## donald1 (Jun 3, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @donald1 Thank you for your reply! Goodness yes I am sure you have learned many things over 5 years though what have you learned specifically about your self?  Let me ask it differently, have you found out any thing about your self as a person that you maybe did not even know before you began 5 yr ago?? Thank you, Jx
> 
> @Andrew Green thank you Andrew.  It sounds like you walk the walk as an instructor and owner I have no doubt from those many cases you have hinted at that you have seen the worth of your art as more than just a fighting form.  I wonder beyond this Andrew either of you your self or of those you have trained, what personal changes have happened.  For example, if a student has been able to control anxiety (which is absolutely fantastic btw!) what is the learning that that person has gained specifically about them selves?  Forgive me if this is unclear.. I know what I am trying to ask.. I hope it come across! Thank you again, Jxx



Never thought id be able to do 20 good pushups now im doing 75 good pushups, got better balance, I have learned several forms(one person sets, two person sets, empty hand, weapon forms) ... weapons, I could talk about that for hours. Practicing some of the various forms, techniques and applications really helps get more endurance,balance, an understanding of what the techniques, and knowing martial arts would probably boost anybodies confidence  in the form are used for or my favorite thing. What else could they be used for? Or how to apply it in a self defence situation?   I also learned I really like weapon forms!  especially the niuwei dao. Im currently learning a second form almost finished! ive already gotten down the hard parts now just add the last few moves and make improvements! I know ive become more fit other wise I provably wouldnt have been able to do the ground moves smoothly or even correctly

Theres also those hard lessons... im sure everyone has them. Do something bad and you see your instructor on the far side of the room with a menacing glare. Its even scarier when he is walking the back lines... you never know when he is standing right behind you and nobody wants to turn around and find out!


Just curious though, what about you jenna. Im sure you have learned a lot too?


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 3, 2015)

Great idea for a thread.

To prevent myself from rambling, I think I'll just make a list off the top of my head. I will try not to write a book about it.
For the record, I started really young. Or at least, I started doing something similar to MA when I was young. So some of these are kind of young person lessons. Probably not the ones you think though.  Regardless, it's how I learned them.

Things about life and myself.

-To be ever evolving. Thinking and growing, learning more and reaching higher, etc.
-Life is a path. Not an elevator. You need to walk it. Not wait to reach greater heights. Don't assume it will all come. Seek it out.
-People have opinions. Often times, there isn't a right answer.
-The unknown is scary. Less scary if you feel prepared.
-The world is a zeitgeist of knowledge and experiences. You will never learn it all, but you can choose what to learn and experience. Making that time count matters.
-Confidence is awesome. Everything about you functions better with confidence.
-Anyone else arachnophobic? Spiders, however creepy they are, can be killed in a variety of nearly instantaneous ways. 

-I work better in inspirational bursts than routines. Better for me to just do as much as I can when I feel like I can (which is quite a bit) than have a routine. The reason - Prevent myself from doing something today so I can do more of it tomorrow. Like a split routine. Turns out, tomorrow didn't work out so well (for whatever reason). Plus, burnout. I do better just saying "Chest Shoulders Quads and Biceps!" and letting the rest of my week work itself out.
-I don't suck. Like, as a human. I had issues before I got into MA. 
-Sometimes, there aren't reasons for things. Technically, everything has a cause and effect. That's not what I mean. People often tell me I'm always overthinking things. For me, MA was always there. Before I even knew what it was. For whatever reason I just always was driven to it and fascinated. Instinctual maybe? Anyway, I enjoy it. I don't know precisely why. It's just in my code.
Point being, not everything that everyone ever does is a calculated thing. Plenty of things aren't a master thesis, witty, complete representation of a person's intentions, feelings, or personality.  It isn't all technique. - A hard lesson for young me to learn. A lot of things were easier after that. Difficult to explain, but after learning this taught me my personality. It gave me....liberty of expression.  In that sense, you could say MA taught me quite a bit. Gave me a solid base for everything after.
-Perspective. It is sometimes difficult to see things....objectively. Thoughts can be easily clouded with many forms of bias, and your emotions can push you further from the truth.
-I should listen to my body. There are _reasons_ why your body tells you to do things. You'll want your brain's second opinion sometimes, but often, there's a good reason.
-I should trust my body. More of a MA concept than a personal one. Different from the last one. Don't think too heavily about things like moving around. Just do them. Don't send your brain to do your body's job.
-I like mobility. I like to be able to be able to move around, in any direction, at any time. I mean this literally and figuratively. I can move out quickly, evading danger of any sort, or move in when I feel it's safe enough. I don't like being stuck. I don't like not having choices.
-Being judgmental is malarchy. (Yes. It's malarchy. xD. Great word) There are so many billions of variables that exist for both you and that person in your minds and in your environments that affect how you think and make decisions. Judging other people's actions is particularly pointless when you don't understand their motives. And you likely don't. It does neither party  good. It only makes you more closed minded and cynical. Really, it's not unlike style bashing. When you don't understand what you're looking at, it can seem foolish to you.
- I don't like hurting people. Physically or emotionally, but more so emotionally. Too many problems are caused for a person by uprooting their worth. It can bleed into other aspects of their life. It can even get in the way of developing further. To that end, I've developed more control than I otherwise would have to avoid hurting people. Unless they reeeaaaalllly have it coming. I've been fortunate in that sense. I haven't met too many people that make it their mission to cross the line.
- I second tshadowchaser's intolerance for bullies and frauds. As well as the fact that not practicing changes my personality.  

Oh look. I rambled anyway. Well, that's all off the top of my head. I'll post more if I think of more.

-


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## Buka (Jun 4, 2015)

Great question, Jenna. Great answers, too. 

I'm wondering if the the things I've learned about myself through martial Arts, are the same things I would have learned through other life expereinces. I'm going to think about this for a bit.


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## Jenna (Jun 4, 2015)

@Buka That is a good point.. I believe the way we find out does not so much matter? Interested to hear your thoughts in either case  Jx


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## Jenna (Jun 4, 2015)

@Danny T, thank you so much Danny for your reply.. takes some courage to deal with the horrors of PTSD, it is a testament to your personal strength and adaptability and frankly I am thrilled and inspired to hear your MA proved so useful in helping you gain some relief.. truly great to hear such a real life endorsement of MA! It sounds as if the you who might have been dead or incarcerated is such a different person to the you of today who is easy going and posts up advice and wisdom here.  I would be so interested to know more though I appreciate not all is for open discussion.  Still, thank you for your replies, I am grateful Jx


@tshadowchaser, wow mixed gender change rooms? Another country this was?  There are so many points here S, each with the depth to merit their own discussion! Thank you for taking time to list these out, they are great thought provokers too.. Let me put one to you that fits with learning of our selfs.. you have said that you have little tolerance for bullies and frauds and I might be similarly minded so this will help me too.. Assuming there are people out there who CAN tolerate bullies and frauds, HOW do you think they are able to tolerate such people?  What do they do that we do not that makes them able to tolerate bullies and frauds? Thank you again! Jx


@ks - learning to fly, I think the ability to stare OUR OWN fear in the eye and fight back take quite some doing, it is so encouraging to know that you have been able to overcome that terrible event with the help of your MA! I believe as you do too that we are all capable of more than we might first conceive!!  I would like to ask you some thing if that is ok.. you say in order to lead you have to follow.. and intuitively it feel to me that there is a wisdom in this statement and but I cannot quite get to the meaning or example of it.. can you say how you mean this please? I am keen to know this.  Thank you again! Jxxx


@donald1, it is awesome to hear of how your belief in your self has grown since beginning your MA! Your enthusiasm for your art and learning is obvious and wonderful to hear so well done you and keep going! My wishes for you D1 is that your desire to learn and improve does not stop  Let me ask you this.. you have learned much from your instructor even though he some times glares menacingly and paces the back lines.. so do you think you would have learned as much as you have if your instructor smiled much of the time and sat on his rear while class proceeded?  The big question is of course, what does this tell you about your self and what style of teaching suits you best so you learn in the best way possible? 

I like your curiosity, does thatr curiosity for learning extends to all areas of your life I wonder? As for me, I learned my best lessons from the “bad” stuff, being hurt, training failures, class breakdowns whatever.. because that stuff DEMANDS that I think about it more (unlike a big chocolate cake which needs little thinking about!!) and when I drag the lesson out of all my disappointment or physical pain I realise to my self.. hey that bad thing was not completely bad because I learned some thing about my self that I did not know.. then I can be grateful to the bad stuff for that lesson.. then I can even say thank you to it.. I say.. Dear “bad” stuff, even though you disguise your self as “bad” you are actually not bad at all, that is plain weird and but never mind, sincerely Jx  


@Orange Lightning, I am guessing this is not the first you have thought about these kinds of things, yes? You have some clearly thought through logic and rationale which says that is true  I feel though that all of this thinking you do.. it only take you so far?? That is just an impression –I should stop with the tarot readings haha- Any way I like your insight.. good that you have determined your best way of training to get the max from it.. Let me pick your brains on some particular things you have said.. you mention the unknown being scary.. can you tell me what is most worrying about the unknown for you? Then also I wonder what about it make it less scary having prepared for it?

And I want to ask about what you have said.. some times there are not reasons for things.. Can you say in what way does this belief help you manage situations or events??

And judging.. do we not all do this? If I disclose to you some thing horrible that I have done in my life will your prior judgement of me not change a bit?

Any way I am interested to hear your thoughts Jx.


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## Cirdan (Jun 4, 2015)

MA taught me my weaknesses are not weaknesses at all just different kinds of strength.


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## Jenna (Jun 4, 2015)

Cirdan said:


> MA taught me my weaknesses are not weaknesses at all just different kinds of strength.


I like that a lot.. I can imagine how that would work with what OTHERS might perceive of us as our weakness.. Like people are not worried about saying to my face -in not such nice words- you are petite and not burly, what can you do to me? that is THEIR perception of a weakness in me not mine.. I am fine with that because it does not correspond to any short coming I see in my self.

So my question of you Cirdan if it is ok to ask would be, is it possible those traits you your self perceive as weakness in you.. that THESE can be seen as strength? if so how can that work that it is not just counterintuitive and paradoxical? Interested to know as I think you have hit on some thing very pertinent both within MA and without.. thank you kindly, Jx


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2015)

I have said this before on MT. I am fairly certain that without martial arts that my view of the world would come though the bars as I looked out at the prison yard.

I have learned a lot about myself from martial arts, some of which I am amazed by, some of which I am proud and some of which I am not so proud. And I am still learning; going through a bit of a rough spot in life at the moment (nothing I care to share openly on the web) and doing a lot of thinking and self analysis and I am finding that most of this is being influenced by marital arts.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 4, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Orange Lightning, I am guessing this is not the first you have thought about these kinds of things, yes? You have some clearly thought through logic and rationale which says that is true  I feel though that all of this thinking you do.. it only take you so far?? That is just an impression –I should stop with the tarot readings haha- Any way I like your insight.. good that you have determined your best way of training to get the max from it.. Let me pick your brains on some particular things you have said.. you mention the unknown being scary.. can you tell me what is most worrying about the unknown for you? Then also I wonder what about it make it less scary having prepared for it?
> 
> And I want to ask about what you have said.. some times there are not reasons for things.. Can you say in what way does this belief help you manage situations or events??
> 
> ...



It is indeed not the first time I've thought about this.  
Thinking can only take me so far...that would be a fair statement. You know how, with your eyes, you can only see so far. And there can be obstructions to your vision that change the picture. The mind is the same, but it's harder to tell what those obstructions are. You need to walk to see farther, and look around the obstructions to see the whole picture. You need to do. Absorb. Critically analyze and study. Practice. Get second opinions. Etc. 
By all means. Pick my brains. Ask whatever you want.  
The unknown is scary for all people. It's an inherent human fear. Do you know what the uncanny valley is? Take this picture. Creepy right?







It looks like a human face. Particularly, one with a big eyes and other features that would normally be considered normal and good. But your mind knows there's something.....not quite human about it. It's wrong somehow. _It could be a threat to you. But you don't know for sure._ It would be better if it was just a picture of something you either knew was friendly,






or something you knew was dangerous.






But since it sets off both the recognition and fear responses in your brain, it's disturbing. You don't know if it's friendly or means harm. You're mind will have a hard time making something concrete out of it or letting it go.  This is the uncanny valley. Humans, generally, are afraid of things they don't understand or know about. Like the dark. Or communism for most Americans.
Essentially, if I don't know what can happen, I'm afraid. I need a solid set of skills and contingencies for things that could go wrong. Actually, I believe that's what martial arts are. Since you can't possibly think of everything at once and react perfectly to everything, and we know this, a cohesive system that protects you and lets you dish out some....protection, allows you to respond more effectively. You know what to do, how to do it, and what to look for to avoid have it being done to you. You can protect yourself from the unknown world. Wherever you find yourself on Earth or life, you have this system with you. If I knew beforehand everything my opponent was about to do, would they be a threat to me? 
If I'm prepared to react quickly without much thinking, use what I can, and to adapt to the situation, then I'm prepared for the unknown. Indeed, you could almost say it puts the shoe on the other foot. You become the unknown, and the targets weaknesses only continue to be exposed. 

Sometimes there are not reasons for things - Well, for one, helps to not be judgy. I'll explain that in a second. Sometimes, people are smart. Sometimes people are stupid. People that are either smart or stupid can act as either at any time. They can behave out of accord with their normal personality. They can say or act without too much thought, or with too much thought. Logical or illogical. Sometimes when a lady says hello, there are no ulterior motives or meanings. How many times have you seen someone or yourself just say "screw it" when making a decision?
Sometimes there isn't rationale. It situation very well, and actually quite likely will not in my experience, be totally rationale. You don't need to read too deeply into everything. Sometimes you really just need to shoot from the hip so you can react to things better. Or, to help you expect the unexpected, understand that all the participants in an event are not rational people. They might say something rational, or not. xD 
This is basically chaos theory. The butterfly effect and all that. Technically, everything accounted for, there are reasons for everything. But some of them are so infinitesimally small that you can't take them into account. Like a person's mental state and bio chemical condition when they make a decision. Plus their personality, experience, motives, genes, and how they interpreted a situation. So on and so forth. Chaos is a massive and constantly continuing unknown in every day life. Making sense of it, sometimes, doesn't make sense. Sometimes it does. Good judgement (xD) is necessary to know when to apply which.
And this is why judging people is foolish. Yes, we all do it. We can't help ourselves. It's part of our nature. To the person making the decision, it was the best one they could think of to make at the time. Usually. To another person, it could be seen as stupid, irritating, naive, or brilliant. But to them, they might have been unsure. They might have thought it stupid or brilliant or what have you. Or thought nothing of it at all. A person can be terribly wrong to do something, and they can be criticized and that's all well and good. But judged as a human? Of that person's traits and worth? No. We can't possibly know well enough to make that critique.. If anything, this is a learning phase for them. An experiment. We've all been foolish before. Plenty of us probably still are.  It would be folly to judge someone for not sharing the same point of view. Or being in a learning phase that you've passed. That's even assuming you've correctly appraised someone. No. I'd rather experience people for the experience they are. Not to make assessments on how I compare. 
I can say with complete honesty that I wouldn't judge you for something you did in the past. Or present even. On the contrary, I would be curious about why you made the choices you did, and how you feel about them now. It likely part of the human condition that I haven't experienced or understood yet.  If anything, it would only help me understand myself and other people even more, rendering me even further unable to judge people.


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## donald1 (Jun 4, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Danny T, thank you so much Danny for your reply.. takes some courage to deal with the horrors of PTSD, it is a testament to your personal strength and adaptability and frankly I am thrilled and inspired to hear your MA proved so useful in helping you gain some relief.. truly great to hear such a real life endorsement of MA! It sounds as if the you who might have been dead or incarcerated is such a different person to the you of today who is easy going and posts up advice and wisdom here.  I would be so interested to know more though I appreciate not all is for open discussion.  Still, thank you for your replies, I am grateful Jx
> 
> 
> @tshadowchaser, wow mixed gender change rooms? Another country this was?  There are so many points here S, each with the depth to merit their own discussion! Thank you for taking time to list these out, they are great thought provokers too.. Let me put one to you that fits with learning of our selfs.. you have said that you have little tolerance for bullies and frauds and I might be similarly minded so this will help me too.. Assuming there are people out there who CAN tolerate bullies and frauds, HOW do you think they are able to tolerate such people?  What do they do that we do not that makes them able to tolerate bullies and frauds? Thank you again! Jx
> ...



He does smile at times  as for my curiosity? Almost too curious cor my own good I ask my instructor questions every day and even ask some of those questions here too Questions and then some MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community 

Its good your learning, keep learning there is always going to be so much to learn.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 4, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Andrew Green thank you Andrew.  It sounds like you walk the walk as an instructor and owner I have no doubt from those many cases you have hinted at that you have seen the worth of your art as more than just a fighting form.  I wonder beyond this Andrew either of you your self or of those you have trained, what personal changes have happened.  For example, if a student has been able to control anxiety (which is absolutely fantastic btw!) what is the learning that that person has gained specifically about them selves?  Forgive me if this is unclear.. I know what I am trying to ask.. I hope it come across! Thank you again, Jxx



I would suspect it is being forced into stressful situations and proving to yourself that a clear and calm approach solves the problem, and even when it doesn't the world doesn't end.  Being pinned while someone is trying to twist your limbs or choke you is stressful, panicking doesn't help.  Being pinned in a corner with someone throwing punches and kicks is stressful, panicking doesn't help.  After 6-months, a year, 2 years, whatever it takes that person also realizes that they can defend themselves and control bigger, stronger, larger opponents with clear thinking, technique and strategy.  

I don't think it's learning about yourself as much as it is reprogramming yourself to react to stress hormones in a different way.  

"Play fighting".. which despite all the fancy names, structure and traditions we add on to it is basically what martial arts is.  And play fighting is possibly one of the most natural play behaviours we have, along with just about every other animal on the planet.  It's a important part of the learning experience both physically and mentally.


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## Buka (Jun 4, 2015)

I learned not to accept, as Gospel, anything some guy in a gi said as truth. I learned this about myself from training. Because, back in the day, I learned something else about myself. That I WOULD accept anything some guy in a gi said, because he was an Instructor. In essence, I learned that I was niave and gullible concerning Martial Arts. It was a great thing to learn. And, obviously, change.

I learned something else about myself. I either couldn't understand, recognize, or even compehand that not all students loved Martial Arts as much as I did. (I couldn't believe it! The bastards!) Recognizing that helped a great deal in my teaching and my understanding of people. I don't expect students to love the Arts as much as I do. The ones that do, I almost feel sorry for. They will have a long, difficult journey with undoubtably numerous injuries, many of which never go away. And they'll eventually end up on Martial Art forums discussing everything with people they don't really know, but who are just as plain bat crap crazy as themselves. 

I learned this about myself - "I'm not all that."  Just a guy doing Martial Arts.

Coming up through the ranks I always thought Dojo Christmas parties kind of sucked. Running dojos I had them, lots of food, music whatever. I still go to them because friends or students run dojos and they have them. What I learned is, Christmas Dojo parties will always kind of suck.


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 4, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @ks - learning to fly, I think the ability to stare OUR OWN fear in the eye and fight back take quite some doing, it is so encouraging to know that you have been able to overcome that terrible event with the help of your MA! I believe as you do too that we are all capable of more than we might first conceive!!  I would like to ask you some thing if that is ok.. you say in order to lead you have to follow.. and intuitively it feel to me that there is a wisdom in this statement and but I cannot quite get to the meaning or example of it.. can you say how you mean this please? I am keen to know this. Thank you again! Jxxx



*'In order to lead, you have to follow"* -  I think how this one came about for me is I think it is rare to find someone who is a 'born leader'...there are more likely a great number of people who have strong leadership qualities but to develop those individual skills and become a good leader - that's a whole other process - which I just think would be more realistic. Also - and I believe martial arts is great for this - because everyone starts at white belt (or, at our dojang - no belt) and because of that position - regardless of age - you need to 'follow', pay attention and focus on what the Instructor or senior student is teaching..subsequently, once you've earned a higher ranking position and begin to help others - if you've haven't paid attention or learned to follow - how can you lead?  Bottom line - there are no shortcuts - so, in order to lead, you have to follow'..


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## Cirdan (Jun 5, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I like that a lot.. I can imagine how that would work with what OTHERS might perceive of us as our weakness.. Like people are not worried about saying to my face -in not such nice words- you are petite and not burly, what can you do to me? that is THEIR perception of a weakness in me not mine.. I am fine with that because it does not correspond to any short coming I see in my self.
> 
> So my question of you Cirdan if it is ok to ask would be, is it possible those traits you your self perceive as weakness in you.. that THESE can be seen as strength? if so how can that work that it is not just counterintuitive and paradoxical? Interested to know as I think you have hit on some thing very pertinent both within MA and without.. thank you kindly, Jx



Oh I was definitely talking about things I percived as weakness in myself. Anger for instance is fueled by passion and a great strength once you are not ruled by it. I see the journey of learning martial arts very much as learning what it means to be human.


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## Jenna (Jun 5, 2015)

@Xue Sheng, I appreciate you taking time to reply XS.. I wonder of the learnings about your self you are not so proud, do you take consolation that ALL learning about your self is to your ultimate benefit? Or is that untrue do you think?

I am certain if you look that you have the tools to wear the rough spot you are in to smooth. Wishes, Jx


@Orange Lightning, hey thank you for your reply. I welcome your thoughts and having read all through what you have written it is plain you spend much time in thought.. You have given me permission to pick your brains and so then I want to ask you some thing else to clarify your thinking.. Why do you say that first picture is creepy? Jx  


@donald1, ah no! not too curious at all and do not let any one cause you to believe that.. Perhaps some day that curiosity of yours will lead you to discover some thing of very great importance. Thank you too for your courtesy and conversation, Jx


@Andrew Green, I like very much that you include the possibility of a thing not working out TOGETHER with a way to mitigate by clear thought the potential stress of it.. that is clever, thank you.

Reprogramming the self to react to stress hormone in a different way is not learning about the self? I am wondering is there any thing I can learn about my self from the fact that I can reprogram my reactions to what I had previously thought was pure reflex?  

Play Fighting.. yes I like that view.. I think there would be beneficial ways to use that term to arouse the drive towards reprogramming away from harmful stress reactions in people does that make sense??


@Buka, thank you for returning to post and I think it is awesome that you have a TRUE self-learning here that you realised you would just accept any thing.. am I right in thinking some aspect of your MA made you realise.. Hey Buka! -even if that is not what you call your self in your own head- Hey Buka! you are too good to accept just any thing as truth just because he has a gi??

I see too an awareness of others.. through teaching you learned you could put your self in the minds of your students and see from their pov even despite your contrary views.. There is surely no more primary trait in a teacher than this.. And well you may be just a guy doing MA, for what it is worth I would feel gratitude to be a student of yours because your humility in my experience is rare.. valuable to me and but rare.. rarely more than lipservice among teachers whose student I have been..  Let me ask you B, is there any risk in being self-effacing –like you say “I am not all that”- of some one taking you at your word?

And I have a theory of Christmas parties sucking royally? it is because they are a total contrivance whether for the dojo folks or work folks.. we are confused.. we are meant to train with these people or work  with these people and not share the season of goodwill.. Best way I found is to make folk in the dojo spar for food! then it will all make sense to every body!  Thank you again for your reply.. I would love to read more Jx


@ks - learning to fly, yes that absolutely make sense now, learning from the ground up.. thank you for elaborating! Can I ask your opinion please.. what do you think of those that are “parachuted into roles” as it were.. I mean who do not serve time working up and but seem to drift in by process or are bestowed the entitlement by some one more senior? do you have less respect for that person in that role do you think? Thank you again for your thoughts, Jx


@Cirdan, hey thank you for replying back, your views are most welcome indeed  And I hope you are not annoyed if I ask another question of you? It is just that I always thought anger was not such a good thing and definitely not a strength.. passion yes I understand this.. if it is ok, I would be interested to hear your thoughts about how anger per se being considered a strength without being deferred to the passion underlying it?  Wishes, Jx


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, I appreciate you taking time to reply XS.. I wonder of the learnings about your self you are not so proud, do you take consolation that ALL learning about your self is to your ultimate benefit? Or is that untrue do you think?
> 
> I am certain if you look that you have the tools to wear the rough spot you are in to smooth. Wishes, Jx



It is a benefit, and it is surprising as well to realize these things, for a while I was trying to figure out when these changed, but then realized when was not important. It is also a learning process when it comes to figuring out how to change. As for the rough spot it remains to be seen how one gets through it and where it leads and at times the mind just wants to believe it is all better when it actually isn't. So far I see 3 possible outcomes.... time will tell


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 5, 2015)

Jenna said:


> . Assuming there are people out there who CAN tolerate bullies and frauds, HOW do you think they are able to tolerate such people? What do they do that we do not that makes them able to tolerate bullies and frauds?


Jenna:
   I think people who can tolerate bullies may well be bullies themselves or at least have a superior attitude to all around themselves. 
That may well go for those who tolerate frauds also but I feel many who tolerate frauds just feel  that time will show the fraud for what they are. Many look at frauds as something that has become  unpreventable and hope that the general public will see them for what they are ( which rarely happens).
With out taking out a advertisement in a newspaper or writing a column on why the person is a fraud it is hard to let people know.  And unfortunately taking one out back and beating the hell out of them is illegal if your caught
sorry this answer will detract from the op and I apologies for that,  perhaps it needs to have a tread of it's own once again


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## stand-up-strike (Jun 5, 2015)

I was always leaving myself open for body shots so I have learned to protect my ribs...


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2015)

Hi Jenna.  I'd say that I've learned how easy it is to injure someone, and how easy it is to be injured.  Not just bumps and bruises, but REALLY injure.  And how fighting is really, really stupid because of that.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 5, 2015)

Jenna said:


> hey thank you for your reply. I welcome your thoughts and having read all through what you have written it is plain you spend much time in thought.. You have given me permission to pick your brains and so then I want to ask you some thing else to clarify your thinking.. Why do you say that first picture is creepy? Jx



xD You don't find it creepy? Not in the least? xD You know how no one likes clowns? Even creep some people out. Well, that's uncanny valley.

Nope.Nopenopenopenope










Well, perhaps it's a cultural experience thing. Different cultures and people have different experiences and context about what things are supposed to be "scary". 

You can read more on the uncanny valley though. If you want. It's a well known thing in internet culture now. You could just google it and get plenty, but I can start you off. 

Uncanny Valley - TV Tropes

10 Creepy Examples of the Uncanny Valley

This one has to do with uncanny valley in game design. Games have recently become able to render very realistic graphics, but sometimes the developers don't handle it well and make it look unnerving.

https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K1Kd9mZL8g

Maybe this one?


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 5, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @ks - learning to fly, yes that absolutely make sense now, learning from the ground up.. thank you for elaborating! Can I ask your opinion please.. what do you think of those that are “parachuted into roles” as it were.. I mean who do not serve time working up and but seem to drift in by process or are bestowed the entitlement by some one more senior? do you have less respect for that person in that role do you think? Thank you again for your thoughts, Jx



Hey Jenna - Honestly, respect - _*in my opinion*_ - must be earned no matter the role..but I firmly believe if someone is 'parachuted' into a role -
that lack of foundation is going to show.. I've met some in those elevated roles who haven't had that foundation and while they didn't make
the best leaders - some of them were gracious and honest enough to know when to ask for help. I guess it's kind of like the old Bible story
about building a house on stone rather than sand..With a strong foundation, it's easier (not simple     ) to move forward..


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## crazydiamond (Jun 6, 2015)

That even later in life I can overcome obstacles, continue to grow, try new things, ways of thinking and being, be a more multifaceted man. Frankly I am more at peace with myself having added Martial Arts into my life.  

Whats next? Lets do it !


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## Buka (Jun 6, 2015)

Jenna said:


> [USER=26001]@Buka, thank you for returning to post and I think it is awesome that you have a TRUE self-learning here that you realised you would just accept any thing.. am I right in thinking some aspect of your MA made you realise.. Hey Buka! -even if that is not what you call your self in your own head- Hey Buka! you are too good to accept just any thing as truth just because he has a gi??
> 
> I see too an awareness of others.. through teaching you learned you could put your self in the minds of your students and see from their pov even despite your contrary views.. There is surely no more primary trait in a teacher than this.. And well you may be just a guy doing MA, for what it is worth I would feel gratitude to be a student of yours because your humility in my experience is rare.. valuable to me and but rare.. rarely more than lipservice among teachers whose student I have been..  Let me ask you B, is there any risk in being self-effacing –like you say “I am not all that”- of some one taking you at your word?
> 
> [/USER]




It stemmed from my first full time Sensei. There weren't many dojos around back then, and the ones that were around didn't much get along with each other for some reason. My Sensei was not an honorable man.  After a few years, myself and a few others did most of the teaching. Sensei didn't care, all he wanted was the money and to hit on women he thought he might have a chance with. Mostly mothers of kid's who trained and thirty something year old female students - which there weren't many of back then.

He promoted himself to a higher dan rank, twice. He would run ads in the local papers claiming to teach styles other than our own, he would promote students who should have NEVER been promoted - if their fathers were influencial in the community. It was more tham embarressing, it was awful. I should point out that he did not teach us to spar or fight,  he did not know how to fight nor to teach someone else to fight. We had to learn on our own at various Institues of Higher Pugilistic Education, including boxing gyms, then bring home what we learned and teach it to everyone else. This went on for several years.
We started winning a lot of tournaments and ring matches. A bootload of them. That of course, got him a bit green eyed. So he brought in the old trophies he had won from some of the biggest tournaments in the country years before. They were big old fashioned trophies for winning first place in Kumite at the biggest tournaments in the country.  Ed Parkers Internationals, Henry Cho's in New York, The Nationals in D.C. and on and on. You name the tourney, he probably won it. - Except, he never actually fought in ANY of them, ever, I checked. The only reason we put up with all this is we needed a place to train, he wasn't training us anymore, maybe teaching once a month if a potential customer/student walked in to watch class. But only if he thought she was hot.

As for the self defense he taught us. Think Master Ken's little brother. (seriously) Took us years to untrain ourselves and actually learn viable self defense from good and experienced sources.

We eventually went off on our own. Explored a lot of Senseis. Trusted them because they weren't Joe. We figured he was just an abberation. That was not always so. So we went to Plan C. We sought out the very best Martial Artists we knew, read about or heard about, and had them train us.

I used to think he was the worst thing that ever happened to me in the Martial Arts. But now I believe it was just the opposite. Taught me every single thing a Sensei should not be. Not even a little bit. And he always made me want to teach out of neccessity (so he wouldn't) and later, I just wanted to make it up to students at large. And I never would have sought out who I thought were the best teachers - had he been just an average Joe.

He eventually got beaten up in public, at a competition, by a judge no less (I kid you not) beaten badly and hospitalized for five days, seriously injured, and left the arts. It was an ugly shame. But, I bear him no ill will.

Also - I used the term "some guy in a gi" as a catch all generalization. I encountered similar, if not as dramatic, situations among Defensive Tactics instuctors in Law Enforcement. I hope it's not the same way now, but I don't know. A lot of departments I've dealt with do not have great resources or numbers. Often, a department would send one of it's members to a two week course to get certified as a D.T instructor. Two weeks. With no previous experience or skill in the field. Some were ONE week. And I'm not talking forty years ago. I last encountered it in 2007. NOTE - I know some great D.T instructors, I mean really top notch, so please don't think I paint the whole field with the same brush.

As for people taking me at my word about not being all that. I sincerly hope so. :)

And, Jenna? I love the idea about sparing for food! I can see the ref at the party. "Next up is this wonderful plate of lasagna, eggplant parmesian, killer garlic bread and three of the best meatballs you'll eat this year! Fighters ready!"

EDIT- I have no idea why this text is colored.

Sorry for the long post. But it's a long story. :)


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2015)

Today I learned training Dachengquan with a student of Wang Xiangzhai is pretty darn cool


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 7, 2015)

Buka said:


> It stemmed from my first full time Sensei. There weren't many dojos around back then, and the ones that were around didn't much get along with each other for some reason. My Sensei was not an honorable man.  After a few years, myself and a few others did most of the teaching. Sensei didn't care, all he wanted was the money and to hit on women he thought he might have a chance with. Mostly mothers of kid's who trained and thirty something year old female students - which there weren't many of back then.
> 
> He promoted himself to a higher dan rank, twice. He would run ads in the local papers claiming to teach styles other than our own, he would promote students who should have NEVER been promoted - if their fathers were influencial in the community. It was more tham embarressing, it was awful. I should point out that he did not teach us to spar or fight,  he did not know how to fight nor to teach someone else to fight. We had to learn on our own at various Institues of Higher Pugilistic Education, including boxing gyms, then bring home what we learned and teach it to everyone else. This went on for several years.
> We started winning a lot of tournaments and ring matches. A bootload of them. That of course, got him a bit green eyed. So he brought in the old trophies he had won from some of the biggest tournaments in the country years before. They were big old fashioned trophies for winning first place in Kumite at the biggest tournaments in the country.  Ed Parkers Internationals, Henry Cho's in New York, The Nationals in D.C. and on and on. You name the tourney, he probably won it. - Except, he never actually fought in ANY of them, ever, I checked. The only reason we put up with all this is we needed a place to train, he wasn't training us anymore, maybe teaching once a month if a potential customer/student walked in to watch class. But only if he thought she was hot.
> ...



Why is it linked to Xue Sheng's page?


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 7, 2015)

I remembered something I learned!  This is the first time I've ever used this emoticon! Will probably be the last! I would like to use more of these fantastic face things!

I learned that I can be irrationally hard on myself. There were days when I just got sad during training because I thought I should be way better than I was for the amount of time I put in. I would often distrust my opinions in favor others, and not just on MA. Only to find later that my opinion was perfectly valid. Temporarily joyous, because I would be quick to put myself right back down.

Really, really, out of that now. I learned how to not be hard on myself. I learned how to trust myself and to let my find just focus on what it needs to, instead of wonder if it's correct or not. Time spent wondering that would be better spent focusing on what would solve that problem anyway. Focus. On improvement and learning. 

I've also found that I have good focus compared to most people I know. In fairness, I'm a terrible multitasker. (Scientifically speaking, so is everyone, but some people do seem better at it than others.) Perhaps this focus comes from MA?


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## donald1 (Jun 7, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> xD You don't find it creepy? Not in the least? xD You know how no one likes clowns? Even creep some people out. Well, that's uncanny valley.
> 
> 
> Nope.Nopenopenopenope
> ...




I could never understand why people think clowns are creepy ... seem friendly to me


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## marques (Jun 8, 2015)

The way you train/fight is the way you are. 
If you find problems and solutions here, you can use it to improve your daily life...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Why is it linked to Xue Sheng's page?



To quote Ozzy Osborne..... Don't ask me - I don't know


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## Jenna (Jun 8, 2015)

@Xue Sheng, you mean it can be surprising to realise there is learning even from the negatives yes? I would definitely agree with that indeed.. And can I ask some thing else XS? Say you find your self needing to effect some positive change either in your self or in your environment or situation only this time your normal process is insufficient.. Do you think there is a learning even in this? Perhaps about who we are or how we act? Jx


@tshadowchaser, that is an interesting viewpoint on those kinds of folk.. I wonder too are people that tolerate bullies in a way condoning that behaviour? Perhaps some one elses bullying connects to their own feeling of weakness in them selves? It makes sense why outing a fraud is a welcome thing for those that might be unwittingly fooled or damaged due to it.  I would like to ask Sheldon do you think there is any difference between tolerating bullying and tolerating a bully or likewise between tolerating fraud and tolerating a fraudulent person? If we cannot condone the behaviour is there any point do you think in trying to understand the person behind that behaviour? And if you are detracting from the OP then I am too so we are both guilty haha  Thank you again for your time and patience in answering, I am always grateful, Jxx


@stand-up-strike
What was happening that you were leaving your self open for body shots? Were your hands protecting your head? Was your mind else where in the fight? What was going on that made you do this do you know? Thank you for your contribution! Jx


@Flying Crane, Aha I knew I could rely on you to have a wise thought like this Michael  It is from your share of injuries and having apportioned injury to others that you know how fragile we can be yes?  I would ask my self this at times so I am interested to know your opinion Michael because your reasoning is always clear and you have consistency of argument, if fighting is really stupid like you have learned, what are the reasons do you practice a fighting martial art?  We reconcile the two in our own way.. I should very much like to know how you see it? Thank you again so much for taking time, Jxxxx


@Orange Lightning, well I could ask you as a representative of your culture why this is creepy though I am more interested in why you your self find this creepy Mister OL  ok I will ask you same question by alternate route, my friend have a little daughter who is born with what clinicians refer to as genetic abnormality.. I imagine by our natural way of perceiving things as you describe it, she would be designated and categorised creepy.  I want to know if she were a family member of yours perhaps a niece and her features were resemblant of this image you posted would she creep you out –because it is evolution etc. – though you would not say in polite company? Or would you admit she was creepy to your friend or family member who was her father say?  OR would you avoid going to your friend/family members house to avoid the creepy child?  Or some thing else? Where in the shade of uncanny valley would you find your self do you think?  

Regarding your other learning from training, you are suggesting you were irrational to be hard on your self, so much so that you learned how not to be hard on your self yes?  How would you address this view were it held by a student of yours now or in future?  

I like your logic, you are good at it.  Thank you for your conversation, Jx


@ks - learning to fly, ks that makes complete sense from start to end yes! and I know people who have been pur into these roles just like this which is why I am interested in your opinion.. and but you would have respect for the person for who they are do you think, irrespective of whether they have earned respect in the role per se? I mean are some people not entitled to respect because they have not earned it as say leader / instructor? Or do we respect them as people and but just do not respect their lack of ability? I hope this is understandable.. I know what I am trying to say, forgive me if it is unclear.. I welcome your thoughts though because you have insight and clarity in your reasoning, Jxxx


@crazydiamond, I have noted this sentiment a lot as I feel my self accept the flight of my youth.. I would like to ask you crazydiamond, what would be your worst fear of getting older –as we all are- what are the obstacles that lie ahead of you?  I should very much like to know also how adding MA into your life has assisted you with finding peace with your self.. I believe this is very true and I wonder what is your particular route to this peace through your practice if you were willing to share?  I hope so, thank you for your comment and contribution, Jxx


@Buka, hey I absolutely love this story, I read it like it was a book.. I hope there is more of that book you have such adeptness at peinting the character –even though he is real I know! I mean there is an awesome lesson in that tale of Sensei Joe because it is almost allegorical for even the bad apple can still bear good seeds! I like that and I like that you were strong enough and wise enough to learn so much and to apply that learning to your own successes which in turn help others.. that is so awesome and has given me a very big smile! Thank you xx..  I bet you have lots of these stories I would so love to hear.. Still though.. I cannot let you away with you say you are “not all that”? tell me why is that a good thing to have learned? You recognise your abilities yes?? and not every person in the street have these abilities, skills, attributes, yes? so what is not all that?  Will you say to me Buka why it is good some times that we keep our selves in our right place by saying we are not all that?  .. or we could just spar for food haha.. Lols.. any way if you are able to answer my question it would help a lot! Thank you again, Jxxx


@marques, hey there, can you explain a bit more about the way you train/fight is the way you are for me please? And what ways have you found you have been able to improve your daily life becuase that sounds like a very practical real-world application of learning which has great importance.. I would like to know how you mean that if it is ok to ask  Thank you, Jx


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 8, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, you mean it can be surprising to realise there is learning even from the negatives yes? I would definitely agree with that indeed.. And can I ask some thing else XS? Say you find your self needing to effect some positive change either in your self or in your environment or situation only this time your normal process is insufficient.. Do you think there is a learning even in this? Perhaps about who we are or how we act? Jx



Interesting you should ask this, that is pretty much one of the things I am learning, and yes there is learning here as well. And it does lead to learning about; who we are, how we act, how we interact, and also learning to deal with the possibility that there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. There is also learning in how to have confidence in yourself that you can and will work to move on and be a better you, or at least a you that you can be more comfortable being with. But therein lies the rub, one can learn, but then can one apply what they have learned


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## marques (Jun 8, 2015)

@Jenna,
It was quite philosophical, and it works better when observing others... 
Well, I thought many ways to explain that in a few words I chose that one: Someone said _"Martial arts, honestly, is the way to express yourself." _
And yes, stubborn or arrogant people don't learn easily, martial stuff (_express yourself_) and everything else. We can often guess the nationality (well, the continent) of a fighter by the way he moves (_express yourself_)... I was (and I am) tense and I wasn't progressing. My instructor said that repeatedly and one day I accepted it. When I (dis)solve this training limitation, I have solved more than a training limitation. Clear exemple? 

PS: Doing Qigong. Or trying.


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## Buka (Jun 8, 2015)

Jenna said:


> [USER=26001]@Buka, hey I absolutely love this story, I read it like it was a book.. I hope there is more of that book you have such adeptness at peinting the character –even though he is real I know! I mean there is an awesome lesson in that tale of Sensei Joe because it is almost allegorical for even the bad apple can still bear good seeds! I like that and I like that you were strong enough and wise enough to learn so much and to apply that learning to your own successes which in turn help others.. that is so awesome and has given me a very big smile! Thank you xx..  I bet you have lots of these stories I would so love to hear.. Still though.. I cannot let you away with you say you are “not all that”? tell me why is that a good thing to have learned? You recognise your abilities yes?? and not every person in the street have these abilities, skills, attributes, yes? so what is not all that?  Will you say to me Buka why it is good some times that we keep our selves in our right place by saying we are not all that?  .. or we could just spar for food haha.. Lols.. any way if you are able to answer my question it would help a lot! Thank you again, Jxxx
> [/USER]




[COLOR=#000000]Thanks for the kind words, Jenna. But, like others on here, I got hooked on Martial Arts from the git go. I wasn't "strong enough and wise enough" I just didn't have many choices at the time, I was kind of desperate.

Sure, I recognize my abilities. Worked hard enough for them. But, if I compare my skills to those that taught me, it's not close. And, a few students of mine have a better overall skill set than I do, others are closing fast. (This is awesome). But the people I've helped the most over the years - it's not because of how adept at Martial Arts I am, I just provided an opportunity. It's because they were in the right place at the right time and so was I.[/COLOR]


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## Jenna (Jun 9, 2015)

@Xue Sheng, yes that is the rub indeed.. that is interesting let me ask you about the rub if it is ok.. we learn a thing and but then are unable to apply it in a real-world situation.  Does that mean some times we still lack some thing necessary to apply the learning?  It is not true that with the learning comes the strength or wherewithal to apply it?? Thank you for your conversation XS.. I learn much my self from it, Jxx


@marques, thank you for keeping it simple for me.. I am not of much philosophical mind most times  so you are saying that there was a version of you who was tense and this tension was manifest in training and had an analogue in your daily life.. then there was a more informed version of you who (dis)solved this limitation and became less tense or more relaxed both on mats or outside.. am I close to your meaning here?  Tell me did you learn any thing of your self from this experience? Jx


@Buka, I came to the arts with a feeling of desperation.. perhaps it was not dissimilar from yours though I am sure our stories are not the same I would love to hear yours.. me I was singled out.. ethnically different from others in school.. fraught and dangerous living at home etc.. why am I saying this? I do not quite know..  You have supported your case for you being “not all that” in your field with ample evidence.  I read the evidence and but I am confused why do I still think it is not true of you? Maybe it is because I do not want it to be true.. I would like to ask Buka some thing in a way I hope is not impertinent and but out of a desire to.. what is it I am doing.. to connect.. to share or show.. some thing like this.. so I would ask you like this since I think you are a police, yes? would your position “I am not all that” like in what I do, particular MA would this position be accepted by a jury in a court? I hope that is ok to ask, Jxxx


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## Zero (Jun 9, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Great idea for a thread.
> - I don't like hurting people. Physically or emotionally, but more so emotionally. Too many problems are caused for a person by uprooting their worth. It can bleed into other aspects of their life. It can even get in the way of developing further. To that end, I've developed more control than I otherwise would have to avoid hurting people. Unless they reeeaaaalllly have it coming. I've been fortunate in that sense. I haven't met too many people that make it their mission to cross the line.
> -


This a nice point and a very valid and important one in my mind.  And it should be pointed out that unless the individual is very grounded and confident or has a good sense of self, it can be quite easy to harm or knock emotionally persons of most ages, it does not just relate to juniors/ teens etc.
Personally, I found at any early age that I have no issue with a person being hurt if it is in a competition where everyone is on the same page, or if it is in a SD situation or a street fight, if they have brought themselves into this situation.  I do not want to hurt anyone but I do not see this as a part of competition fighting, I am there to do the best I can and execute my techniques as best as I can.
What I don't like is bullying, inflated egos or people trying to build themselves up at the detriment of others and I have seen this across the spectrum but gladly not too much.  I saw quite a lot of BS ego in my old TKD club during high school. I saw some plain nasty stuff in karate at a club I visited and where a work colleague trained, rubbish like large male seniors not pulling shots/holding back on juniors and much smaller females.  And just big mouthing.
Anyone that wants to lower the self esteem or worth of another in the martial arts (actually, anywhere) has a major problem with themselves.  People should consider more their actions and how that may impact on or mould others.

The positive interaction of humans in a competition or learning environment can be an amazing thing (I got that from my martial arts over the years, and from different styles, but that is true of any sport or subject I imagine).

peace


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## Zero (Jun 9, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Jenna:
> I think people who can tolerate bullies may well be bullies themselves or at least have a superior attitude to all around themselves.
> That may well go for those who tolerate frauds also but I feel many who tolerate frauds just feel  that time will show the fraud for what they are. Many look at frauds as something that has become  unpreventable and hope that the general public will see them for what they are ( which rarely happens).
> With out taking out a advertisement in a newspaper or writing a column on why the person is a fraud it is hard to let people know.  And unfortunately taking one out back and beating the hell out of them is illegal if your caught
> sorry this answer will detract from the op and I apologies for that,  perhaps it needs to have a tread of it's own once again



This is a hard one, at least for me!  I have found that _now_ I am able to let a lot of things slide myself.  I am not bullied, and never really have been.  Not being a dick about it but I have always been a relatively powerfully built chap with various degrees of power lifting and weightlifting on top of that from late teens onwards and that has done MA and contact sports from an early age so was never really a "target" in or out of the school yard (thankfully I was also pretty fleet footed back in the day so could generally leg it from those best to avoid).  But after a while I managed to be able to disengage my ego, with a lot of work I will admit, so that slights or jibes or even a bit of an attempt to escalate things I can let go.  I don't really care what most others say, or think.  What I still find hard though is not "flaring up" when I see others getting bullied.  I have myself come out of left field a few times and put some pain or intimidation on people that have been mistreating others.  The thing is, sometimes this is well received but sometimes people have then called me a bully, for bullying the bully.  This surprises me, I understand it now but it really surprised me previously (and there was an instance a few years back I relayed here on MT about me shoulder barging a dude that was going along deliberately straight-lining and knocking into women etc and then asking him to take it all the way if he had an issue and many here on MT, at least those whose opinions/views I value, thought I was immature or needed to get my ego/control in check). 

So there you go.  MA and life has helped me think about and control my response as to slights or what could be perceived as "wrongs" to myself but I am still struggling with those against others  but at least I am more aware of how my responses may be perceived (and that is in part thanks to this website) .


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## Zero (Jun 9, 2015)

stand-up-strike said:


> I was always leaving myself open for body shots so I have learned to protect my ribs...


Excellent!


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## Zero (Jun 9, 2015)

donald1 said:


> I could never understand why people think clowns are creepy ... seem friendly to me


This is plain horrific and I was tempted to "Disagree" you on this! This is why I have to "psych-up" for hours before taking the kids to funfairs, the circus etc!  : )  They need a "scary" rating!!!!  I won't be able to sleep tonight now Donald!


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## Flatfish (Jun 9, 2015)

I have not been training for very long but since I started, two things have come out that I never thought I would particularly care about. I have never been competitive in sports, never cared if a team I was on won or lost. If I was playing it was solely to enjoy myself and try to have a good time.

Now I found out that it drives me crazy if I can't do anything physically that my class mates can do ( like being able to kick creatures larger than puppies) and I challenge myself constantly to get better. So that's a self challenge/improvement thing.

I also figured out at my recent first tournament that I can get pretty competitive if someone tries to kick me. Something came out there I didn't know I had in me.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 9, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, yes that is the rub indeed.. that is interesting let me ask you about the rub if it is ok.. we learn a thing and but then are unable to apply it in a real-world situation.  Does that mean some times we still lack some thing necessary to apply the learning?  It is not true that with the learning comes the strength or wherewithal to apply it?? Thank you for your conversation XS.. I learn much my self from it, Jxx



Yes it does mean we lack something. It is usually easier not to change and we as humans tend towards the easier. And change is hard, uncertain and uncomfortable and we also like certainty and comfort. We can learn and strength can come, but not necessarily strength of conviction.


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## Buka (Jun 9, 2015)

Jenna said:


> [COLOR=#000000][USER=26001]@BukaYou have supported your case for you being “not all that” in your field with ample evidence.  I read the evidence and but I am confused why do I still think it is not true of you? Maybe it is because I do not want it to be true.. I would like to ask Buka some thing in a way I hope is not impertinent and but out of a desire to.. what is it I am doing.. to connect.. to share or show.. some thing like this.. so I would ask you like this since I think you are a police, yes? would your position “I am not all that” like in what I do, particular MA would this position be accepted by a jury in a court? I hope that is ok to ask, Jxxx[/COLOR][/USER]




[COLOR=#000000]Jenna, you can ask anything you want, my friend.
I'm retired from police work, but might be going back later in the year in a different capacity. (Odd, I know)

As for court - scary places, juries even more so, but I've always been comfortable in court. A background in MA can work for or against you. In my case, if I was in the right I think it would work wonderfully for me, if I was in the wrong, maybe not so much. I spent my career as a Defensive Tactics instructor. I'm skilled at not injuring people by mistake and my record reflects that.

And - two of my black belts are defense attorneys. Taught them since they were whippersnappers. So I'd feel comfortable in front of a jury, as much as anyone can.[/COLOR]


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 9, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @ks - learning to fly, ks that makes complete sense from start to end yes! and I know people who have been pur into these roles just like this which is why I am interested in your opinion.. and but you would have respect for the person for who they are do you think, irrespective of whether they have earned respect in the role per se? I mean are some people not entitled to respect because they have not earned it as say leader / instructor? Or do we respect them as people and but just do not respect their lack of ability? I hope this is understandable.. I know what I am trying to say, forgive me if it is unclear.. I welcome your thoughts though because you have insight and clarity in your reasoning, Jxxx



Hey Jenna - As mention previously - to me - respect must be earned..and while a role, let's say at work - of a senior position - the title can be respected; but, the person holding that title either earns the title or is handed the title. I've seen many variations of this situation.. On one extreme - again, only my opinion - is the person who has worked hard, taken nothing for granted and earned the position and the opposite extreme is someone who has either by luck or seniority been handed a position and is either to self-involved or has such a sense of entitlement, they won't reach out for help when problems arise. Thankfully, I've experienced more good leaders than bad but - in the end - I tend to follow the belief that 'common courtesy' is given' and (not to be redundant) respect must be earned.   Hope that is helpful..


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## pgsmith (Jun 10, 2015)

ks - learning to fly said:


> Hey Jenna - As mention previously - to me - respect must be earned..and while a role, let's say at work - of a senior position - the title can be respected; but, the person holding that title either earns the title or is handed the title. I've seen many variations of this situation.. On one extreme - again, only my opinion - is the person who has worked hard, taken nothing for granted and earned the position and the opposite extreme is someone who has either by luck or seniority been handed a position and is either to self-involved or has such a sense of entitlement, they won't reach out for help when problems arise. Thankfully, I've experienced more good leaders than bad but - in the end - I tend to follow the belief that 'common courtesy' is given' and (not to be redundant) respect must be earned.   Hope that is helpful..


  I have a quibble with this. It may be purely semantic, but I believe it is a real problem in today's society, and that is the words "respect must be earned". These words have been tossed around for quite a while now, but they've gradually changed in meaning over the years. In today's society, too often the terms "respect" and "courtesy" are interchanged. A number of times, especially when dealing with young folks, when called about being rude their answer was "respect has to be earned". Personally, I much prefer to live by the rule that "lack of respect must be earned". This grants people that I interact with automatic respect, until such a time as they prove to me that they don't deserve it. That's what I pushed on my kids, and what I pushed on my Scouts back when I was involved. It's also what I push in my dojo.

  Just my opinion though.


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## Jenna (Jun 11, 2015)

@Zero, thank you for your comment, I am interested in what you have written and I would like to ask a couple questions if that is ok with you?  When you say you “managed to disengage” your ego would you be ok to share what was your process of doing this as it seems most of us act according to the dictates of this ego in us. It would be interesting and useful to know how you managed that if you are ok to share.. 

Also, when you said you have been known to come out of left field and “ put some pain or intimidation on people that have been mistreating others” I can understand that desire to protect others.  Can you tell me how did you feel when you intervened in the case you describe?  I appreciate your reply, thank you, Jx


@Flatfish, hey it is good to read our comment and encouraging to hear you have made these discoveries of your self.. so your competitiveness has been uncovered through your MA, yes? And would you be able to say are things better now for you since you have revealed your competitive side? Thank you, Jx


@Xue Sheng, thank you again XS for your thoughts on this.. I agree that the kind of fortitude you suggest can indeed come with time.. I most often imagine that this very fortitude is latent in us at all times and so I think we cannot say we are still waiting for it.. it is there, do you not think?  
I want to ask you what is it that impedes us when we see our learning or the path along which that learning suggest we go.. only we do not move.. it is like you say, we do not confront the change required maybe.. why is this XS?  What is the worry or fear in us that keep us locked down in a lesser happiness? for it must be a fear, right? I do not know I have the ability to reason it out.. that is why I am asking.. thank you again, Jxxxx


@Buka, hey you have all my wishes that works out super for you and opens new challenges and opportunities with going back to being a police in a different capacity xx..  And yes I had been in court my self before giving evidence against a person.. I did not much like that place or the skill of his advocate because he try to make out like it was ME who had done some thing.. anyway yes your record reflecting your abilities sounds impeccable and yes then this is yet more convincing to me of what you say “not all that” not actually being true? You see where I am coming from right? There is a lot of support evidence that you being “not all that” is not completely true in the context of what you do, yes?? Say to me Buka what would have to happen before you do not any more say or think of your self “I am not all that” ???  under what circumstances would that sentiment no longer be in your evaluations of your self do you think?  I am just wanting to show that some times how we evaluate our selves is not wholly objective or justified.. I am happy to shoot the breeze instead though if it is better Jxxx 


@ks - learning to fly,  yes! this make sense and thank you for your patience in elaborating for me.. I wonder can I get your view on a hypothetical situation?  I mean say for example all of the top people in your work or section of your work had to go away for a length of time –I do not know for why but just some plausible reason- and you were made in charge.. would you feel you deserved no respect only common courtesy until.. when or under what circumstance? Would you feel you were due respect when you had demonstrated your capability or kept your work place running well for a certain time? When might the respect be due to you? I hope it is ok to ask a hypothetical question like this ks.. you can just say to me no Jenna I am self employed and it would never apply and put yourthumb in your lips and blow me a trumpet haha.. and but thank you for your conversation it is interesting and helpful too xxx


@pgsmith, Paul hey that is an interesting way also to view respect in a different way that LACK of respect must be earned.. I can only imagine it must take effort to not only be the wiser among young folks and but also to ACT the wiser.. I have found it take a lot of biting my tongue or just offering no response except a smile.. I take a deep breath and let it go with a big sigh haha.. How do you manage to keep a level head when the view in those young folks that respect must be earned leads in them to an actual DISrespect? how do you teach them? I do not imagine I could do that and but I am glad there are wiser folk like you who can, Jxxx


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, thank you again XS for your thoughts on this.. I agree that the kind of fortitude you suggest can indeed come with time.. I most often imagine that this very fortitude is latent in us at all times and so I think we cannot say we are still waiting for it.. it is there, do you not think?
> 
> I want to ask you what is it that impedes us when we see our learning or the path along which that learning suggest we go.. only we do not move.. it is like you say, we do not confront the change required maybe.. why is this XS?  What is the worry or fear in us that keep us locked down in a lesser happiness? for it must be a fear, right? I do not know I have the ability to reason it out.. that is why I am asking.. thank you again, Jxxx



Like I said, and this is only my opinion, I belevie it is fear of change, fear of the unknown, lack of self confidence any number of things and likely not the same for everyone that runs in to this. But it is, IMO, along the lines of "Better to deal withte devil we know thane the devil we don't know" kind of thing.


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 11, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @ks - learning to fly, yes! this make sense and thank you for your patience in elaborating for me.. I wonder can I get your view on a hypothetical situation? I mean say for example all of the top people in your work or section of your work had to go away for a length of time –I do not know for why but just some plausible reason- and you were made in charge.. would you feel you deserved no respect only common courtesy until.. when or under what circumstance? Would you feel you were due respect when you had demonstrated your capability or kept your work place running well for a certain time? When might the respect be due to you? I hope it is ok to ask a hypothetical question like this ks.. you can just say to me no Jenna I am self employed and it would never apply and put yourthumb in your lips and blow me a trumpet haha.. and but thank you for your conversation it is interesting and helpful too xxx



Hey Jenna - honestly, I feel everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves in this type of 'hypothetical' situation - so I believe I would expect common courtesy from my associates and respect once I had demonstrated my capabilities.. Many of us - me included - have been thrown into positions of leadership - whether or not we thought we deserved it and; if it was deserved, I think once the initial shock wears off we'd notice less of a transition time. On the flip side, if that position came about as a matter of temporary convenience, it may feel as though we were trying to function underwater - with cement shoes..     (Also - hypothetical questions are fine as long as you remember - I am no expert!     )


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## kravazon (Jun 11, 2015)

Definitely! I've been doing Krav Maga (off-and-on) since 2008.

I've learned these things about myself:

I'm always stronger than I think.
Related: I can do another defense/attack/move/technique one more time. No matter how exhausted I am. No really.
I function much, much, _much_ better when I'm doing Krav 2-3 times a week. It improves my mood, my ability to practice patience, my ability to deal with life.
When I'm tired, I get sloppy. At techniques. At making decisions. Just in general.
Hydration is important. Holy crap. Being hydrated changes everything. 
When I graduated to a yellow belt, I got a good dose of humble pie. I may think I'm the ****, but there's always someone out there who can kick my butt.
Every time I spar, I get a good dose of humble pie. Same as above.
Last year, I learned a really hard lesson. Training safely is priority number one. Every time. No matter what.
Basically every time I train, I learn something about myself, humanity, psychology, the human body, ways of thinking...

Great question! Fun to think about it!


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## Jenna (Jun 12, 2015)

@Xue Sheng, Fear of change, fear of the unknown and lack of self confidence I think to my self what is it that ties these together..  what really is fear of change or of the unfamiliar or unknown.. what is it that worries us the most about dealing with the devil we do not know? That we will make a mistake? That we will be hurt? That we might die? For each person in each situation that may differ.. Only you know how it is for you.. I hope you are well, Jx

@ks - learning to fly, Aha perhaps we can all be experts in hypotheticals.. nobody else can assail our position since it is all hypothetical any way haha.. 
Can I ask you ks, which would be more important do you think in these deserving / not deserving to take on leadership roles? that YOU feel you deserve to be in the position, or that some one else that appoints you feels you deserve to be in the position?

@kravazon, this is super thank you for taking time to post!  I LOVE your “one more time” learning! I too believe this.. and I see it as proof that there are no limits to what we can do except those we impose on our selves, this is awesome thank you x
Let me ask you, what do you think a person would learn that would be to their benefit from having to take a slice of humble pie? Why is it not better to imagine your self as unbeatable? I like your bullet points btw.. you are organised of mind I think? Thank you again, Jxx


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 12, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, Fear of change, fear of the unknown and lack of self confidence I think to my self what is it that ties these together..  what really is fear of change or of the unfamiliar or unknown.. what is it that worries us the most about dealing with the devil we do not know? That we will make a mistake? That we will be hurt? That we might die? For each person in each situation that may differ.. Only you know how it is for you.. I hope you are well, Jx



Ah, I'll survive.... I hope all is well with you as well


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 12, 2015)

Jenna said:


> well I could ask you as a representative of your culture why this is creepy though I am more interested in why you your self find this creepy Mister OL  ok I will ask you same question by alternate route, my friend have a little daughter who is born with what clinicians refer to as genetic abnormality.. I imagine by our natural way of perceiving things as you describe it, she would be designated and categorised creepy. I want to know if she were a family member of yours perhaps a niece and her features were resemblant of this image you posted would she creep you out –because it is evolution etc. – though you would not say in polite company? Or would you admit she was creepy to your friend or family member who was her father say? OR would you avoid going to your friend/family members house to avoid the creepy child? Or some thing else? Where in the shade of uncanny valley would you find your self do you think?
> 
> Regarding your other learning from training, you are suggesting you were irrational to be hard on your self, so much so that you learned how not to be hard on your self yes? How would you address this view were it held by a student of yours now or in future?
> 
> I like your logic, you are good at it. Thank you for your conversation, Jx



Good at logic. xD Awesome. Thanks. 

Well, I can't speak for my whole culture. My experiences and the experiences of those around me are going to be different. This bit about culture basically means that your environment, being so different from another environment, is very likely going to have different dangers and anecdotes and history and lore and so on. I'm pretty sure I'm afraid of spiders because I grew up reading kids books about how scary spiders are. Could be wrong I suppose. It might be an instinctive, pathological fear.

I don't find this "Long Neck" Japanese ghost creepy in the least. And as far as I know, it's supposed to be creepy. Does anyone know how to make these image smaller?





Things that are dangerous are easier to be afraid of. It's a survival advantage to want to avoid things you think are dangerous. I find clowns a little creepy too. Apparently, as a child, I found Ronald McDonald terrifying. Young people not liking clowns seems universal.

Don t send in the clowns Reuters

I think the fear of clowns comes from the uncanny valley effect most of the time. Perhaps not always. 

I really don't think I would be creeped out by your friend's daughter. I doubt that it's so odd that my brain wouldn't be able to recognize her as "definitely human". Odd maybe, but not creepy. Besides admitting that, indeed, she looked different than other people, I wouldn't say much about it. Or listen to too much of other people talking about it negatively. Objectively, one's appearance (as well as perceived "weirdness") really does affect things socially. I wouldn't ignore it, but I wouldn't make it negative.   Actually, I would probably hang out with them quite a bit. I'm fond of kids.  If it was an issue for that person, I think I couldn't help but try to help them come to grips with it. How it matters, and why it doesn't. Hard to explain. 

The training bit - I wouldn't say I was irrational to be hard on myself. I was *so *hard on myself that it was irrational. Many of us are our own worst critics. And that can have benefits. The ability to critically assess yourself and realize where you can improve is important. You can only do it so much on your own though. Through training, hundreds of second opinions, and research, I learned not to be _quite as hard_ on myself and gained the ability to assess myself more objectively. 

I don't teach. Not even close. But if I encountered a person with the same problem, well...I probably wouldn't even know. If my experience with that is anything to go by, they wouldn't talk about it. If somehow I did know....hmmmm. It's not something you can just deal with. It needs a lot of work and time to push through. I would find ways to make the person recognize that their opinion is valid and that everyone has the potential to not be totally right all the time. Being wrong _or_ right is not unique to them. Indeed, it's possible for two people to be right simultaneously. There might not be a "wrong" in the regular sense. If they feel insufficient at a skill, make them recognize they only need more training. Feel free to experiment and make something their own. Don't be....afraid to not be awesome, if that makes sense. If you don't know for certain, ask. Experiment. If you don't think your expert, don't hold yourself to that standard. Let yourself be where you are and allow yourself to progress naturally. Without judging how good your think you should be, want to be, or how good you are in comparison to someone else. It takes a lot of mental conditioning and searching, proof, and thinking to undo that way of thinking.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 12, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Why is it not better to imagine your self as unbeatable?



I don't know if this is relevant, but I read something I think I agree with in Autumn Lightning. The idea was to not try to have a fervent desire to win, because that puts a pressure on you. Instead, just want to not lose. The change in mindset will let your mind and reflexes act more naturally and effectively than if you were "trying to win", trying to do moves perfectly and use the right moves and react well and strategize and so on, all while nervous from pressure. Instead, you'll just act as you feel you should, as you've trained to.

2 cents.


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## kravazon (Jun 12, 2015)

@kravazon, this is super thank you for taking time to post!  I LOVE your “one more time” learning! I too believe this.. and I see it as proof that there are no limits to what we can do except those we impose on our selves, this is awesome thank you x
Let me ask you, what do you think a person would learn that would be to their benefit from having to take a slice of humble pie? Why is it not better to imagine your self as unbeatable? I like your bullet points btw.. you are organised of mind I think? Thank you again, Jxx[/QUOTE]

Ha! Yes, organization is a huge part of my job. 

On the question around taking a slice of humble pie, I think it's two-fold. It's partially about ego. I still feel like I can do (just about) anything, but ego can really affect how you learn. I can learn a lot from others, even (and sometimes especially) if they're younger or less experienced in something as simple as the questions they ask. When you let ego get in the way, you block yourself from those opportunities.

The other, related part is that when you learn something you didn't know before, you start to realize how much you don't know. When you first start learning you see the tip of the iceberg, but there's a whole world of ice below the surface. It's a fun, daunting thing to realize.

What a super fun to think about! You've got me down a big rabbit hole. GREAT questions! I'll be thinking about this all night.


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## kravazon (Jun 12, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I don't know if this is relevant, but I read something I think I agree with in Autumn Lightning. The idea was to not try to have a fervent desire to win, because that puts a pressure on you. Instead, just want to not lose. The change in mindset will let your mind and reflexes act more naturally and effectively than if you were "trying to win", trying to do moves perfectly and use the right moves and react well and strategize and so on, all while nervous from pressure. Instead, you'll just act as you feel you should, as you've trained to.
> 
> 2 cents.



YES! This too! Anytime I'm aiming for perfection (in anything, not just MA), I respond poorly. In life, if I'm aiming for perfection, I might not do anything at all. It's the pressure. This is something I struggle with. I like this idea of trying not to lose, instead of trying to win. It's a twist that takes off a lot of pressure.


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 12, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @ks - learning to fly, Aha perhaps we can all be experts in hypotheticals.. nobody else can assail our position since it is all hypothetical any way haha..
> Can I ask you ks, which would be more important do you think in these deserving / not deserving to take on leadership roles? that YOU feel you deserve to be in the position, or that some one else that appoints you feels you deserve to be in the position?



..that's an interesting question..and a hard one, because I think most people have been in the position where we know how hard we've worked and how much we've sacrificed in order to be in a desired position and then haven't received it..  On the other hand, when someone thinks enough of us and our abilities to award us that position - it can be very flattering..  To Illustrate, after being laid off a job I held for 16 years, I made the decision to go back to school at the age of almost 40..I knew it would be difficult, but I also knew that I didn't just want a job anymore, I wanted a career. I was also aware that - after graduating - I'd be competing with people half my age so I gave it everything I had - all 4 years. After graduating with a 3.86 GPA, I worked a couple of jobs in my field, but FINALLY almost a year to the day after I graduated - I got a call for a phone interview with my top choice for employers - after 7 submitted resumes, they finally called. And - after 3 interviews - I was hired. Hard work - check, sacrifice - check, guaranteed - no way!  But - in the end - there are no guarantees and also, no shortcuts...sometimes, you do what you want to do and sometimes you do what you have to do and, God willing - things work out..     I'm not sure if that answers your question, but in my experience - I don't think it's a matter of 'importance'..


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 13, 2015)

ks - learning to fly said:


> ..that's an interesting question..and a hard one, because I think most people have been in the position where we know how hard we've worked and how much we've sacrificed in order to be in a desired position and then haven't received it..  On the other hand, when someone thinks enough of us and our abilities to award us that position - it can be very flattering..  To Illustrate, after being laid off a job I held for 16 years, I made the decision to go back to school at the age of almost 40..I knew it would be difficult, but I also knew that I didn't just want a job anymore, I wanted a career. I was also aware that - after graduating - I'd be competing with people half my age so I gave it everything I had - all 4 years. After graduating with a 3.86 GPA, I worked a couple of jobs in my field, but FINALLY almost a year to the day after I graduated - I got a call for a phone interview with my top choice for employers - after 7 submitted resumes, they finally called. And - after 3 interviews - I was hired. Hard work - check, sacrifice - check, guaranteed - no way!  But - in the end - there are no guarantees and also, no shortcuts...sometimes, you do what you want to do and sometimes you do what you have to do and, God willing - things work out..     I'm not sure if that answers your question, but in my experience - I don't think it's a matter of 'importance'..



3.86. Nice. Magna Cum Laude! I bet that looks great on a resume.  I got my Associate's just yesterday with 3.4. 0.1 away from getting Cum Laude status. Damn.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 13, 2015)

Currently using something else from martial arts (Zhan Zhuang) to help me learn how to let go. The meditation from standing is relaxing and allowing me to think about what I am facing.... tomorrow actually and then more permanently in the fall.

My oldest is going to spend the summer in China with family and he comes back for one month and then off to college. Been tossing this around in my mind for a couple months, but a couple weeks ago, after the Dachengquan seminar, I realized that some how zhan zhuang was helping.


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 13, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> 3.86. Nice. Magna Cum Laude! I bet that looks great on a resume.  I got my Associate's just yesterday with 3.4. 0.1 away from getting Cum Laude status. Damn.



3.4 is nothing to sneeze at!  Well Done!  And - thank you!


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## Jenna (Jun 14, 2015)

@Orange Lightning, you are interesting to talk with.. you have an empathy to see people as people.. Do you think your empathy for another might be a hindrance in a situation where you must defend your self against them? or is it rendered irrelevant in the shock of that circumstance?

I believe I understand what you mean about self-criticism and I take your view.. I think it is one commonly held by most.. and but I think if I were to critically assess my self I would not be doing quite the same thing as if I were being self-critical in the way it is generally meant.  To my mind being self critical is to appraise ones self negatively almost to the exclusion of any thing that might be otherwise considered positive.. to disclude those potentially positive aspects.. Maybe to critically assess I would feel was more objective and account for good and bad.. How does that sound to you? I mean to be self-critical is like hating on your self.. i think that is the phrase..

There is a wisdom in how you would deal with your hypothetical students.. it is plain you have been in or through certain personal situations and have not left them behind without learning from them.. I like this.. it is the sage way to journey.. And yet you do not teach, perhaps you do not have the opportunity? though you have said “not even close”.. that would make me ask what is it that creates distance between you and teaching? Thank you again for your view and thoughts, Jx.


@kravazon, I know what you mean about ego hindering our ability to learn from all possible sources of wisdom.. it is wise too on your part to see this truth.. And yes I have heard this too about reaching the stage where you know what you do not know.. I have a slightly different view of that same sentiment from some thing I was also shown by a much wiser head than mine.. that I already know every thing I need to know.. I just have not learned that I know it yet   I wonder can I ask for your thought about that humble pie.. since it is not so nice to be forced to eat humble pie, is there a way do you think to teach some one humility with kindness instead? How could you teach humility to another person who, like you say, is bound by ego? It is useful for me to hear your thoughts, thank you Jxxxx


@ks - learning to fly, I remember like you ks that feeling working hard and not receiving what I felt is proper due recognition.. I would like to ask you ks, besides thinking that people treat us unjustly some times, what can we learn about us our selves from that about how we are or how we act or what we think? Is there some thing we can understand so we can make that situation good for our selves that we do not feel upset or despondant? Perhaps it hs no good answer.. I wanted to ask you because I liked how you answered my question in very much your own way.. I think you are a woman that stand up for her self.. and have possession of independent thinking.. I have admiration for these in others.. so any way that is why I am persisting in asking  xxx


@Xue Sheng, Zhan Zhuang meditation sounds awesome.  Could you say how does this meditation help to let go? How does it address our need to hold on? It would be interesting and useful to know how this works, thank you and all of my wishes to you and yours for flow and adaptability in the face of change or uncertainty for I think that is never simple, Jxxx


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## Jenna (Jun 14, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I don't know if this is relevant, but I read something I think I agree with in Autumn Lightning. The idea was to not try to have a fervent desire to win, because that puts a pressure on you. Instead, just want to not lose. The change in mindset will let your mind and reflexes act more naturally and effectively than if you were "trying to win", trying to do moves perfectly and use the right moves and react well and strategize and so on, all while nervous from pressure. Instead, you'll just act as you feel you should, as you've trained to.
> 
> 2 cents.





kravazon said:


> YES! This too! Anytime I'm aiming for perfection (in anything, not just MA), I respond poorly. In life, if I'm aiming for perfection, I might not do anything at all. It's the pressure. This is something I struggle with. I like this idea of trying not to lose, instead of trying to win. It's a twist that takes off a lot of pressure.



Can I ask you both would the techniques you use be different due to that mindset change, I mean particularly within a fighting/defensive situation do you think?  If so, how? and if not, does this imply that how you think is more important than what you do in that fighting or defensive situation?  Thank you very kindly, Jx.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, Zhan Zhuang meditation sounds awesome.  Could you say how does this meditation help to let go? How does it address our need to hold on? It would be interesting and useful to know how this works, thank you and all of my wishes to you and yours for flow and adaptability in the face of change or uncertainty for I think that is never simple, Jxxx



It gives me the space to think and look at things from a different perspective with much less..."OH MY GOD what if something happens" moments.

Zhan Zhuang is standing meditation and you are not thinking of internal or external or anything really. You do pay attention to your alignment at first but after that all you do is just be.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Can I ask you both would the techniques you use be different due to that mindset change, I mean particularly within a fighting/defensive situation do you think?  If so, how? and if not, does this imply that how you think is more important than what you do in that fighting or defensive situation?  Thank you very kindly, Jx.



I don't think techniques would be too different. At least, I wouldn't think so. I'm no self defense expert but, with all that adrenaline going through me, I can't help but think I would react different than if I was in a calm state of mind. I've made the personal decision to _attack instantly_ if I perceive a serious threat. I think  I would move on the first opening I saw with the hardest, most fight stopping move I could muster at the time, followed by a flurry of whatever next thing I could throw first. Not give the other person the chance to do so much as think about how to react. 
But that's only my guess as to how I would behave in that situation. I don't know for sure until I'm there.
I would definitely say that your mindset is just as important, if not more so, than your skill. It affects your thinking ability and fighting behavior. If for example, you feel that your _defending_ yourself from someone you think you have little chance against due to  their strength or skill, it will be apparent. I've read about "decision failure" where the black belt is trying to decide the best move to use, and in the middle of that, POW he gets socked with a sucker punch and a haymaker.
That, versus an serious belief that you need to overcome your opponent, and that you _can...._the difference is apparent. 
And then there's even legality. What you really believe you're trying to do could get you in trouble if you rely on the wrong thoughts to guide your actions.



Jenna said:


> you are interesting to talk with.. you have an empathy to see people as people.. Do you think your empathy for another might be a hindrance in a situation where you must defend your self against them? or is it rendered irrelevant in the shock of that circumstance?
> 
> I believe I understand what you mean about self-criticism and I take your view.. I think it is one commonly held by most.. and but I think if I were to critically assess my self I would not be doing quite the same thing as if I were being self-critical in the way it is generally meant. To my mind being self critical is to appraise ones self negatively almost to the exclusion of any thing that might be otherwise considered positive.. to disclude those potentially positive aspects.. Maybe to critically assess I would feel was more objective and account for good and bad.. How does that sound to you? I mean to be self-critical is like hating on your self.. i think that is the phrase..
> 
> There is a wisdom in how you would deal with your hypothetical students.. it is plain you have been in or through certain personal situations and have not left them behind without learning from them.. I like this.. it is the sage way to journey.. And yet you do not teach, perhaps you do not have the opportunity? though you have said “not even close”.. that would make me ask what is it that creates distance between you and teaching? Thank you again for your view and thoughts, Jx.



You have a interesting and insightful point. I don't know if I could ever armbar someone or do something of similar brutality. No matter how dangerous the situation was. No qualms about pounding them though.
In a similar regard, I don't know to what degree I could prevent myself from getting involved in something in a way that perhaps I shouldn't. 

You've hit the hammer on the head about how I think about self criticism versus critically assessing yourself. 

I don't teach for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I don't think I've reached a point where I should be teaching. I do feel that I can explain things to people that don't know, but not to have students. I have tried to teach some people with casual interest about some basics, but those have been rare occurrences. I think I still have plenty of learning to do myself. Case in point, I don't have a belt. In anything. Quite unfortunately, I'm a self trainer. I've been training at home for a long time in ways that I can. I'm well aware of the many shortcomings. Can't help myself though. Gotta train. Gotta discuss.  Actually, I would wager I'm more aware of the shortcomings than most everyone here. I don't feel like getting into that though. It's a really dead end conversation and pointless discussion. I'm not going to argue in favor of self training. It's terrible. Although, the common perception does seem to be that it's much worse than it actually is. You _can_ progress, but you have unlimited obstacles. You need to figure it all out on your own. Which, for some things (like pressure testing), is impossible. I do have the advantage of knowing an someone who used to be pretty good at Shorin Ryu Karate and Boxing that I can run stuff by. And the internet, for various questions I might have. Most recently, this site is my new favorite source. 
Anyway, having recently graduated, I'm very close to getting a job and joining a TKD school at a YMCA that's a minute away from my college. Something I'm very eager to do, because I've been looking at opportunities to go to a school for my whole life, but circumstances have not allowed it. On the subject of exactly how terrible self training really is, I'll see when I make it to that school.


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @ks - learning to fly, I remember like you ks that feeling working hard and not receiving what I felt is proper due recognition.. I would like to ask you ks, besides thinking that people treat us unjustly some times, what can we learn about us our selves from that about how we are or how we act or what we think? Is there some thing we can understand so we can make that situation good for our selves that we do not feel upset or despondant? Perhaps it hs no good answer.. I wanted to ask you because I liked how you answered my question in very much your own way.. I think you are a woman that stand up for her self.. and have possession of independent thinking.. I have admiration for these in others.. so any way that is why I am persisting in asking  xxx



Hey Jenna - I think this incident from my life in 2003 can help answer this question - 12 years ago, this month actually - I got jumped in Detroit..to keep a long story short..I ended up with 4 broken ribs, 2 black eyes, a broken nose and kick marks on my right side stretching from my shoulder to my knees..when they guy that did it drove away..I was left broken and bleeding in the rear parking lot of my hotel. After finding my glasses which had been knocked off..I remember thinking I should go inside and find some help..so I tried, and tried again to stand up - after 10 long painful minutes, I stood up. In the 6 months following the incident, I went through a LOT of sleepless nights and wondered over and over again what had I done to cause the attack..  You ask - what can we learn about ourselves when we are treatly unjustly - about how we are and what we think...  I think when we are treated unjustly, there is - initially - a period of shock..as in - what did I do to cause that to happen to me and - once the shock wears off - you work at coming to terms with what happened. In my case, I just had to remind myself that sometimes, bad things happen to good people and yes it's unfortunate - but it happens.. I think the most important thing I learned from that incident is that sometimes, the hardest and most necessary thing you can do is to stand up. It would have been tremendously easy for me to lay there and feel sorry for myself, but not only is it not who or how I am, but I am also not the type of person to sit on the sidelines and watch life pass me by


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## kravazon (Jun 14, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Can I ask you both would the techniques you use be different due to that mindset change, I mean particularly within a fighting/defensive situation do you think?  If so, how? and if not, does this imply that how you think is more important than what you do in that fighting or defensive situation?  Thank you very kindly, Jx.



I agree with @Orange Lightning. I don't think the techniques themselves would change, but it's less daunting to not lose vs trying to win.

I've been thinking about this pretty hard. Yes, I think it's more important how you think in a fight/defensive situation than how you fight (meaning the types of strikes you throw). In Krav Maga, one of the biggest things they teach you in level 1 is aggression. You have to know in your gut that you deserve to live and be safe. To allow yourself to fight for it. I train with a lot of new people who don't have the mindset that they can (or should) be aggressive. It's all in their heads. And once you give them permission to be aggressive and to push hard you see a drastic improvement.

If someone were to attack me out on the street and I _think_ I should just give in, because I can't _possibly_ win, then I'm going to lose. 

But if someone attacks me and I think I am capable of defending myself, that I deserve to defend myself, then at least I have a fighting shot.

Specifically on the topic of not losing vs winning... the first thing I think of is that the likelihood that I'd be stronger than an opponent is unlikely. I'm a 125lb lady. So I might lose at strength, but I can win overall in brains, in aggression, in desire to survive.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 14, 2015)

By the way @Jenna , I am enjoying this conversation too.


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## Zero (Jun 15, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Zero, thank you for your comment, I am interested in what you have written and I would like to ask a couple questions if that is ok with you?  When you say you “managed to disengage” your ego would you be ok to share what was your process of doing this as it seems most of us act according to the dictates of this ego in us. It would be interesting and useful to know how you managed that if you are ok to share..
> 
> Also, when you said you have been known to come out of left field and “ put some pain or intimidation on people that have been mistreating others” I can understand that desire to protect others.  Can you tell me how did you feel when you intervened in the case you describe?  I appreciate your reply, thank you, Jx


Hi Jenna, sorry not to have responded earlier, work kind of went hectic the last week.  Thanks for your questions.
Disengaging the ego:
Actually, through my teens and into young adulthood/tweenhood up to around 23, I guess, I was pretty bad at disengaging my ego and also in controlling my aggression (two different things but one feeds so well off the other...).  I was never one to shy away from a confrontation and to be honest while I never went out looking for trouble, I was hot-headed enough to turn something that could have easily been avoided or simply ignored into trouble.  

It was when I had started doing goju-ryu karate around 23 that I began to get things into perspective - maybe this could also have coincided with me actually "growing up" and maturing in any event.  After training we would often have chats with the senseis about life/fights/things to watch out for on the streets/etc.  My sensei told me that once I get others in my life that I care for, then their safety, and also my staying alive and sticking around to be there for them, becomes paramount.  It became pretty clear to me from his teachings that it really does not matter what someone says to you on the street or in the work place or anywhere, this can all simply be ignored.  The same applies to a wrongful bump, etc.  These things seldom actually harm you, they are an irritant at most.  And, even if you proceed to beat up the guy that was trying to instigate something, what have you proven?  Simply that you don't have control of your emotions and that you allowed someone else to goad you into a response they wanted you to take...that's not too impressive. I finally realised this.

I think the other aspect was that the tournaments I was entering into in karate were full contact, they were kyokoshin and kick boxing tournaments and the training for those was also very hard.  When you win a few fights and tournaments, this gives you all the confidence that your worthless ego may have been craving for and you soon realise there is nothing to gain from a sober or half drunken fight at night.  Even being beaten in tournaments helps your self-esteem, as it gives you a clear indication of what your abilities are and more importantly, that you can take a licking and get back up again and on with training, it makes you resolute. 

Intervening:
You know what, I did not really feel much emotionally when I intervened.  I don't know what that means or says about me really.  It angered me and made me feel a sense of outrage seeing others being mistreated and/or hurt but when I decided to step in I think emotionally I was pretty cold (I'm going off recollection here, so that is what it is...).  I certainly did not have any "super-hero, here comes the hero" kind of feeling.


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## Jenna (Jun 15, 2015)

@Xue Sheng, Ah yes.. the omg.. yes.. and when we worry over the “some thing” that might happen, we are worried about the other person in that situation.. are we also worried about us and how we will manage?

And when you say how you “just be”, what do you be? Do you ever be some thing you are normally not?


@Orange Lightning, It is interesting you say you do not know how you will behave in a situation because you are not there.. it is interesting because you are considering how you will act though you are not ther.. do you think some people believe there is a greater likelihood for them than others of being in a situation where they will be required to defend their selves? I mean why do some of us consider this a risk significant enough that we train our selves for its probability? Is it our life experiences that determine this evaluation of risk or our outlook on how the world and other people are? What do you think?

“Decision Failure”? ha I can picture this phrase under one of those motivational posters – suitably illustrated 

And you are more aware of your shortcomings than most every one here? that is an interesting position to adopt.. is that a beneficial way for you to be do you find? And are there times when that is not your position?


@ks - learning to fly, goodness that is quite a trauma you have mercifully come away from though I see you have post trauma symptoms sleep disturbance negative cognitions or self evaluations also.. I hope you have got some relief from this my friend.. I am so happy you are here and training and posting for us to read.. wishes xxx.. I know Detroit.. it would be the place for this to happen.. I had my purse stolen though that was all.. You have such an awesome outlook after what had happened.. I think your survival experience is a very valuable one.. there are many who I work with who I try and try and but I cannot open them into that outlook that you have found.. 

Can you suggest or recall any of how you came out of the valley of that negative thinking and ruminating over the horrible trauma of what happened? That would be so useful to know.. I mean I find it is seldom quick or ever easy to build esteem to get women back to the place where they are self-validating and can do just what you say ks and STAND UP.. I wonder do you have like a blog or some thing where you write? Your story is fantastic because you are an example not just of surviving and but of winning.. I think you are a winner from all of that.. and if you do not post online I understand and but I hope your experience of overcoming is to the help of others xxx


@kravazon, I appreciate your thinking.. you have taught me how you see this working as a mindset change in practice.  There are some wise KM practitioners on here too and but I wonder from your perspective how you your self would teach some one –particularly women survivors I work with– how to know in your gut you deserve to live and be safe and to be aggressive and push hard.. I like this.. though I find it a long route to show this at times to women.. not only do they not want to hurt.. they do not want to do any thing at all except take what they are given.. your thoughts would be useful to me a lot xxx 


@Zero, I appreciate you taking time and I hope your work is treating you fair.. Your honest view of your self make it easy to listen and trust what you have written thank you.. 

You have said some thing.. “My sensei told me that once I get others in my life that I care for, then their safety, and also my staying alive and sticking around to be there for them, becomes paramount.” that resonate with me so much I am inclined to ask you Z are you in this situation now of having others in your life whose safety you care for? I am interested in what ‘clicked’ with you in this depiction that made you change from deliberately NOT avoiding confrontation to seeing this bigger or wider picture? I mean there must have been one particular situation you would have normally reacted agressively to that you did not.. do you remember this?

You use the term worthless ego.. can you tell me a bit more about why you say your ego is worthless? I do not at all disagree.. I would like to know how you come by this description?

And regarding when you intervened on behalf of another.. ha I like that you were not suited up like Spidey lol.. only one thing strike me and I wonder of my self.. why are other people worth intervening for? Why do we care? Why do you care? Thank you again! I am grateful to you Jxxxx


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 15, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, Ah yes.. the omg.. yes.. and when we worry over the “some thing” that might happen, we are worried about the other person in that situation.. are we also worried about us and how we will manage?



I think we are worried about both, what might happen to them and how are we going to handle it. And from there we start building scenarios that are generally varying degrees of not good that do nothing but increase our stress levels



Jenna said:


> And when you say how you “just be”, what do you be? Do you ever be some thing you are normally not?



Mushin or something as close as one can get to it in reality. Mind without mind aka "no-mindness". A mind not fixed or occupied by thought or emotion and thus open to everything. But to put that into plain English being calm, relaxed and in the moment, not worrying about past of future, not building scenarios, just taking things as they are....to get back on the East Asian philosophically high horse of confusion.....standing in solitude


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 15, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @ks - learning to fly, goodness that is quite a trauma you have mercifully come away from though I see you have post trauma symptoms sleep disturbance negative cognitions or self evaluations also.. I hope you have got some relief from this my friend.. I am so happy you are here and training and posting for us to read.. wishes xxx.. I know Detroit.. it would be the place for this to happen.. I had my purse stolen though that was all.. You have such an awesome outlook after what had happened.. I think your survival experience is a very valuable one.. there are many who I work with who I try and try and but I cannot open them into that outlook that you have found..
> 
> Can you suggest or recall any of how you came out of the valley of that negative thinking and ruminating over the horrible trauma of what happened? That would be so useful to know.. I mean I find it is seldom quick or ever easy to build esteem to get women back to the place where they are self-validating and can do just what you say ks and STAND UP.. I wonder do you have like a blog or some thing where you write? Your story is fantastic because you are an example not just of surviving and but of winning.. I think you are a winner from all of that.. and if you do not post online I understand and but I hope your experience of overcoming is to the help of others xxx



Although I do not have a blog, I do occasionally write poetry which I've been doing for a long time so I don't really think it's related but as I grew up with a stutter, it helped to put my feelings into words.. You ask*.."Can you suggest or recall any of how you came out of the valley of that negative thinking and ruminating over the horrible trauma of what happened?"  - *and I almost hesitate to write the following because I _*do not*_ want it to come across as a plea for sympathy (especially after my previous post), I am just merely relaying the facts and if it helps someone, that's fine.. I believe what helped me - in addition to my own resolve - is the power of my family.. and following my Mom's example..40 years ago, this month - My Dad walked out and my Mom was forced by circumstance to raise 5 kids on her own..I never saw her whine or feel sorry for herself - she simply did what she had to do to ensure, we were fed, went to school and to church and - in between the occasional broken bone, scrapes, daredevil fish hooks in the forehead or whatever else we had gotten into - did her best to keep us healthy..she kept us grounded, focused - she taught us how to win with humility and lose graciously and most importantly - she believed in us and never once gave up on us..the fact that she's my hero is an understatement and even after what happened to me, I honestly felt that I couldn't let her down..I couldn't allow myself to be permanently beaten..after the example she set for me..it was impossible to not try and move forward with determination..today, my Mom is almost 72 years old and is planning her 8th volunteer trip to Africa next winter..she has lived a life of service and I will feel truly blessed if I turn out to be half the person she is..or even turn out to be the person she thinks I am..      Let me close by adding that sometimes I do still think about the night I was jumped and I guess I always will..but, no matter what has happened to me in my life - I know, without question - that there are others who have it far worse than I ever did..my only hope is that everyone has someone they can count on in moments like these, someone to remind them of who they are and where they come from..because, for me - it means everything.


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## EddieCyrax (Jun 16, 2015)

Lessons learned.....

There have been too many to count, but I will settle on the two greatest:
1.  Controlling fear.  Fear of defeat, fear of human aggression in me/others, fear of being dominated, fear for others.
2.  The knowledge that you are only as good as your last day of training.  Everyone around you is adapting/modifying their skills similar to yourself....If you do not continually change/modify/adapt your skills or assume you know your opponents skills,  you will be defeated.


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## Jenna (Jun 17, 2015)

@Xue Sheng, when we have a fear of an unknown, the outcome will be the same whether we fear it or not, yes?  I wonder is time spent fearing a future unknown thing time missed doing some thing more beneficial in the right here and right now? Does being close to the ideal of mushin permit us to leave that worry and fear?  Do you think with sufficient diligence we can make it such that we do not even tough that worry and fear and but refuse it altogether rather than having to work to get rid of it?? Thank you again XS  Jxx


@ks - learning to fly, ks!! your mom is awesome because she has had such a role in making you awesome too! I am really grateful to read of how such fortitude and resilience can be handed on from parent to child thank you for relating your story! It is difficult some times for people that do not have your buffers against such horrible hard knocks of life.. Can you imagine ks how different the world would be like if every one was given the example, the encouragement and unconditional love from their parent as you are from your mom? Wishes, Jxxxx


@EddieCyrax, Eddie, hey thank you, these are valuable and relevant lessons! it is some thing I think about and I do not know if you had ever.. that some times what we fear is really a fear of some thing else, some thing deeper.. I mean if we are fear defeat or being beat, what is this a fear of? It can be fear of the physical pain? Is can be the fear of looking bad or the fear of feeling belittled? Or the fear of feeling we lack competence or skill.. is interesting.. how do you see fear of defeat?? It takes strength though to admit fear, would you say?  I am interested very much in learning how did you go about controlling those fears and is ita teaching that could be applied or learned by some one else?? That would be very useful for me too.. Thank you again, Jxx


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 17, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, when we have a fear of an unknown, the outcome will be the same whether we fear it or not, yes?  I wonder is time spent fearing a future unknown thing time missed doing some thing more beneficial in the right here and right now? Does being close to the ideal of mushin permit us to leave that worry and fear?  Do you think with sufficient diligence we can make it such that we do not even tough that worry and fear and but refuse it altogether rather than having to work to get rid of it?? Thank you again XS  Jxx





Jenna said:


> when we have a fear of an unknown, the outcome will be the same whether we fear it or not, yes?



Yes and no. The outcome of the issue you are fearing will be the outcome if you fear it or not, but the outcome as it applies to your health can be effected by the fear and stress, and without that you are likely belter off



Jenna said:


> I wonder is time spent fearing a future unknown thing time missed doing something more beneficial in the right here and right now?



Mindfulness is always more beneficial IMO and I have to remind myself of that from time to time



Jenna said:


> Does being close to the ideal of mushin permit us to leave that worry and fear?



I believe a Buddhist will tell you yes. I would say yes and no, it just helps you understand better, what it is, where it comes from, etc. But IMO without fear you cannot know calmness.

However you may no longer worry about it since there is nothing that you can truly do about it.

I have said for a long time, that if something is bothering you and you can do something about it, then do it and there is nothing to worry about. If you can’t do anything about it then again there is no reason to worry since you can’t change it…so why worry. Although admittedly I do not always follow that, case in point, my oldest is in China and I worry, but I cannot change the fact he is in China.



Jenna said:


> Do you think with sufficient diligence we can make it such that we do not even tough that worry and fear and but refuse it altogether rather than having to work to get rid of it??



Again a Buddhist might tell you can get rid of it but you have to practice. Since it is suffering and if you follow the Eightfold Path and the 4 Noble Truths you can be free of suffering. As for me I do not think you can ever “refuse it”, it is there. It is how you deal with it that makes the difference. You cannot refuse or suppress an emotion (it is not healthy), you can only learn to live with them IMHO.


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## ks - learning to fly (Jun 17, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @ks - learning to fly, ks!! your mom is awesome because she has had such a role in making you awesome too! I am really grateful to read of how such fortitude and resilience can be handed on from parent to child thank you for relating your story! It is difficult some times for people that do not have your buffers against such horrible hard knocks of life.. Can you imagine ks how different the world would be like if every one was given the example, the encouragement and unconditional love from their parent as you are from your mom? Wishes, Jxxxx



That would be a pretty cool world huh..?      Thanks!


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## Jenna (Jun 18, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes and no. The outcome of the issue you are fearing will be the outcome if you fear it or not, but the outcome as it applies to your health can be effected by the fear and stress, and without that you are likely belter off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your oldest is in China having an awesome time learning and growing so much in such an incredible culture! and here is you worrying? Ah I understand where you are XS, what loving parent would not?

What could I even say? while you meditate, rather than have your focus controlled by worries what would happen if you focussed on nothing except the smile on the face of your eldest and on knowing you have helped them to achieve their growth and happiness? There is no reason why that should not be so! there is no reason why they should not be safe and healthy and supported and upheld in all ways and overjoyed at having their mind and life enlarged in such a wonderful place, yes? so..  xx


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## EddieCyrax (Jun 18, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng,
> @EddieCyrax, Eddie, hey thank you, these are valuable and relevant lessons! it is some thing I think about and I do not know if you had ever.. that some times what we fear is really a fear of some thing else, some thing deeper.. I mean if we are fear defeat or being beat, what is this a fear of? It can be fear of the physical pain? Is can be the fear of looking bad or the fear of feeling belittled? Or the fear of feeling we lack competence or skill.. is interesting.. how do you see fear of defeat?? It takes strength though to admit fear, would you say?  I am interested very much in learning how did you go about controlling those fears and is ita teaching that could be applied or learned by some one else?? That would be very useful for me too.. Thank you again, Jxx



As you mentioned the fear of defeat can take many forms and is usually a derivative of many past life experiences.  Obviously a very complex emotion.

For me it became a conscious thought process to not let these emotions/feelings dictate my actions.  This has become easier over time, but still takes a mental engagement at times.

An example. I am a very fit but slim/skinny individual.  This said, I have always struggled sparring individuals who are much larger in size than myself.  I especially struggle with these individuals should they deploy a "bull rush" strategy to over power/dominate me with their size/strength advantage.  Early in my MA training the fear of being dominated and destroyed would place me instantly in a full defensive mode.....This only made matters worse as they dictated the dance.  My fear became a significant cap on my true potential.... Over time with training my techniques have improved, but more importantly i mentally made note of when i was feeling the fear and forced myself to go on the attack forcing them to deal with me.  I may still on occasion be dominated, but I now take my success in scoring/landing strikes through counters/footwork.  This one thing improved my effectiveness 1000 fold.

The fear never leaves (life experiences run deep), but I have found a way to recognize these feelings within myself and begin to use this to my advantage.  This has also transferred into other parts of life outside the dojo.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 18, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Your oldest is in China having an awesome time learning and growing so much in such an incredible culture! and here is you worrying? Ah I understand where you are XS, what loving parent would not?



He's with family, but the place is so bloody polluted and he is already complaining the food is way too salty



Jenna said:


> What could I even say? while you meditate, rather than have your focus controlled by worries what would happen if you focussed on nothing except the smile on the face of your eldest and on knowing you have helped them to achieve their growth and happiness? There is no reason why that should not be so! there is no reason why they should not be safe and healthy and supported and upheld in all ways and overjoyed at having their mind and life enlarged in such a wonderful place, yes? so..  xx



Got to let them go sooner or later


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 18, 2015)

Jenna said:


> It is interesting you say you do not know how you will behave in a situation because you are not there.. it is interesting because you are considering how you will act though you are not ther.. do you think some people believe there is a greater likelihood for them than others of being in a situation where they will be required to defend their selves? I mean why do some of us consider this a risk significant enough that we train our selves for its probability? Is it our life experiences that determine this evaluation of risk or our outlook on how the world and other people are? What do you think?
> 
> “Decision Failure”? ha I can picture this phrase under one of those motivational posters – suitably illustrated
> 
> And you are more aware of your shortcomings than most every one here? that is an interesting position to adopt.. is that a beneficial way for you to be do you find? And are there times when that is not your position?



@Jenna 

Well, yeah. I do think some people have a higher chance of of feel like they have a higher chance of needing to be able to defend themselves. I"m in an incredibly low bracket for that though. The odds of me getting into an altercation where I live are slim to none. Never know though. My future is not my today. 
I feel that not everyone trains for self defense necessarily. I mean, it's always going to be a helpful part of it. Physical health, enjoyment, or an instinctive need perhaps. Gaining mastery of your body in  a skill makes us happy humans. Empowering in a deep sense. The famous "enlightenment" example. Everybody has their reasons I think.

I am not more aware of my own shortcomings than anyone else here. The grass is always greener. 
I was talking about self training. It has a lot of obstacles, and some of them simply can't be solved. Every time it comes into a conversation, people want to tell me all the issues with self training. Which drives me crazy, because I'm very aware of them. That seems to get confused with my opinion that you can make progress, and people continue arguing with me about things I don't really disagree much with.


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## Jenna (Jun 19, 2015)

@EddieCyrax, I understand by your example exactly what you mean Eddie thank you.  with out knowing, I also get a sense of the gravity of those life experiences I imagine you are alluding to.. Thank you for sharing and I respect that and also respect the courage it take to be honest over ones fear –maybe it is more a male thing.. even so.. thank you! I am still curious to know though.. if you found it non beneficial to be coerced by your fear into that full defensive mode and over time became wise to that fear feeling and then forced your self to go on the attack.. Even though this has improved your effectiveness 1000 fold does it matter that the fear has not left and the implication is that the same fear is still making you dance only now to a different, more attacking tune, if you follow? Is fear useful? I mean it is some time like “hey I have no control over it.. amygdala, adrenaline..” etc etc.. I mean I wonder just because we “feel” a physical sensation can we trust our emotional reasoning that because that sensation feels real and so the fear must be proportionately bad?  And I am not questioning you my friend.. I am questioning myself using your example and hoping your insight is as helpful as before.. wishes Jx


@Xue Sheng I feel your pain dear XS I so do.. are you stoical? Does meditation take your mind away or is it only temporary? What is the answer? xx

@Orange Lightning, yes you are correct there are more reasons for training than just the one I mention thank you.. I sense you are bugged more than a little about what you say people have remarked to you about self-training I am guessing they had not been encouraging? like they are raining on your parade?? I think that would bug me too.. are you deterred by this? Jx


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 19, 2015)

@Jenna 


Jenna said:


> yes you are correct there are more reasons for training than just the one I mention thank you.. I sense you are bugged more than a little about what you say people have remarked to you about self-training I am guessing they had not been encouraging? like they are raining on your parade?? I think that would bug me too.. are you deterred by this? Jx



Eh. Not really. It bothered me a little at first. Not anymore. Mostly it's just frustrating to talk about because it gets in the way of real discussion or advice. 
Very much not encouraging. Although I understand the criticism. I agree with quite a bit of it even. Not deterred though. Not in the slightest.


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## Balrog (Jun 21, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I am interested to know of any one here..
> 
> What has doing your MA taught you about your self as a person?
> 
> ...


Many, many things.  Courtesy, loyalty, respect, perseverance, discipline, self-control....the list goes on.
And no matter what I learn, there's always something new to learn.


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## Shai Hulud (Jun 21, 2015)

Definitely not to listen immediately to what I perceive as my limits, because in most cases I've been able to surpass what I thought was my 100%. 

I don't doubt myself anymore.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 22, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng I feel your pain dear XS I so do.. are you stoical?



Well I have been called a Vulcan and a an "emotionless German" (by my ex-wife, my heritage is mostly German, but to everyone outside of the USA I'm an American) in the past, if that helps..... but I am not as stoical as I use to be, not since my father passed away.



Jenna said:


> Does meditation take your mind away or is it only temporary?



No mediations does not take the mind away, it actually helps focus it



Jenna said:


> What is the answer? xx



Live life, don't fight it, it might just be the only one we got


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## Shai Hulud (Jun 22, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well I have been called a Vulcan and a an "emotionless German" (by my ex-wife, my heritage is mostly German, but to everyone outside of the USA I'm an American) in the past, if that helps..... but I am not as stoical as I use to be, not since my father passed away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi-five from a fellow Stoic.


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## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

@Orange Lightning, well I am glad you do not feel bothered any more.  If you were advising some one in the same situation, facing discouragement or the disparagement of others in their training say, how would you help them not feel bothered since you have been there and done that?  Thank you Jx

@Balrog, your MA has taught you some valuable skills beyond the mats thank you for sharing.. I want to ask you few things.. can you have respect for some one when they have none for you?  And how can we aspire to mastery when like you say, we know there is always some thing new to learn? Thank you  Jx

@Shai Hulud, dear M, I agree whole heartedly with your appraisal of limits, it is a great thing to know and understand.. I think it is always possible to go just one more  And I would like to ask how you learned not to doubt your self because I think this is a common and often not spoken way among all of us?  Thank you Jxxx

@Xue Sheng, well perhaps your ex-wife is not the most objective appraisal of you? German people who I deal with I find are very deeply thoughtful.. there are many thought processes all competing I think.. I find German people very thorough for this though.. I want to know how something is done best and most efficient then I am glad to be in Germany and I know I will be also told simply and forthright.. there is far less disingenuous than I would get in London.. oh.. and the cars.. oh.. and meat haha.. Anyway I am sorry your dad passing has shaken your stoicism, will it return to you do you think?  I should like very much to know how you blend with lifes flow and do not fight with it? Thank you, wishes Jxx


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 23, 2015)

@Jenna


Jenna said:


> well I am glad you do not feel bothered any more. If you were advising some one in the same situation, facing discouragement or the disparagement of others in their training say, how would you help them not feel bothered since you have been there and done that? Thank you Jx



Well... I don't want to make someone discount rational criticism. I wouldn't want to recommend a way of thinking that ignores thoughts that are counter to one's own opinion. Actually, quite the opposite. Definitely take them into account. Attempt to explore the other point of view and _try _to be unbiased. Own up to mistakes. With potential new truths exposed, embrace the new thoughts and opinions you have  as they come and see if those are true. But don't go halfway. Don't reach a point where you aren't sure what your opinion is and walk away from the issue conflicted.
Or, choose to not have an opinion. If you find that you can't decide, choose to develop that opinion in the future when you have the opportunity. Research it. Ask more people more questions. Do what you can until that time.

A little ironic I suppose. That's basically the summary of why I'm here.


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## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> @Jenna
> 
> Well... I don't want to make someone discount rational criticism. I wouldn't want to recommend a way of thinking that ignores thoughts that are counter to one's own opinion. Actually, quite the opposite. Definitely take them into account. Attempt to explore the other point of view and _try _to be unbiased. Own up to mistakes. With potential new truths exposed, embrace the new thoughts and opinions you have  as they come and see if those are true. But don't go halfway. Don't reach a point where you aren't sure what your opinion is and walk away from the issue conflicted.
> Or, choose to not have an opinion. If you find that you can't decide, choose to develop that opinion in the future when you have the opportunity. Research it. Ask more people more questions. Do what you can until that time.
> ...


What you suggest.. some of it is easier said than done, no? I mean not ignoring thoughts counter to ones own opinion means accepting ones own opinion may not be the best opinion to have.. that is easy for you to accept?? Not maybe for everyone.. like just look at this forum or any other.. it is full of inability to accept.. what is the mindset that permits the thought.. I concede my opinion is maybe not the best opinion.. what need to happen to bring this about?? While it seem prudent, still it also requires an openness and humility not everyone have.. how can this be taught? I think you are insightful btw Jx


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## Transk53 (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> like just look at this forum or any other.. it is full of inability to accept.. what is the mindset that permits the thought



Because people do not have to, it is a forum as you say. However, I will say that Martial Talk is as professional sounding and being as a forum can get.


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## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Because people do not have to, it is a forum as you say. However, I will say that Martial Talk is as professional sounding and being as a forum can get.


I agree with you.. I never much liked other MA forums I used to frequent.. it was the attitude not the opinions.. well, it was the opinions engendered by the attitude lols

Tell me Transk53, how would you your self come by the decision to take on board a contrary opinion, say on some aspect of your training or performance that you did NOT INITIALLY agree with or maybe got your back up if you follow?  What would make you look past your own initial assessment of that opinion that you may have felt to be true ie. that the opinion was unjustified or unfair or unwarranted?  Thank you Jx


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## Transk53 (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I agree with you.. I never much liked other MA forums I used to frequent.. it was the attitude not the opinions.. well, it was the opinions engendered by the attitude lols
> 
> Tell me Transk53, how would you your self come by the decision to take on board a contrary opinion, say on some aspect of your training or performance that you did NOT INITIALLY agree with or maybe got your back up if you follow?  What would make you look past your own initial assessment of that opinion that you may have felt to be true ie. that the opinion was unjustified or unfair or unwarranted?  Thank you Jx




In general such things do not bother me if I deem it unwarranted or not, at me personally at least. There are so many opinions on a forum as well as in the real world. I take on all opinions and listen to what is being said, or being demonstrated, or both. However, even if it is wrong to me, if the opinion has substance then I mark it as something to delve further into and explore the nitty gritty of it. I make assessments all the time, then seconds later I make more assessments and so on. Usually I either get bored and move onto something else, or I dedicate some brain space and focus on a particular thing. As for training, I do struggle with some aspects as usually I can't do repetition, unless I see something tangible. Just a me thing, I have learnt just to shut up these days, but it does pee me off drilling the same thing over and over. Again though, a teachers assesment (for example) of how I am doing has no interest to me, only that I am doing right technically. A opinion is just an opinion and is never unjustified, unfair or unwarrented to me. Does not mean one has to agree though, but listening is important, just have to hear the music.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, well perhaps your ex-wife is not the most objective appraisal of you? German people who I deal with I find are very deeply thoughtful.. there are many thought processes all competing I think.. I find German people very thorough for this though.. I want to know how something is done best and most efficient then I am glad to be in Germany and I know I will be also told simply and forthright.. there is far less disingenuous than I would get in London.. oh.. and the cars.. oh.. and meat haha.. Anyway I am sorry your dad passing has shaken your stoicism, will it return to you do you think?  I should like very much to know how you blend with lifes flow and do not fight with it? Thank you, wishes Jxx



Jenna

How I blend and how you blend with life and do not fight it is likely not the same and I am not always successful at it. But meditation and standing practice (wuji, Zhan Zhaung) help, but it is something you need to find. Also there is something a friend of mine, who is a practicing Psychologist (PhD) once told me when it comes to dealing with anger, upset, conflict, nervousness. Try and look at it like a Scientist, analyze it, get a better understanding of the situation, realize what your standard response might be and try to respond differently, more like you would if you were studying the situation. And it is that approach that likely saved something rather important quite recently.

There is a rather Taoist response to all of this that I believe is either in the Nei-yeh, or the Tao Te Ching. I shall have to look for it and post it later


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## EddieCyrax (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @EddieCyrax, I understand by your example exactly what you mean Eddie thank you.  with out knowing, I also get a sense of the gravity of those life experiences I imagine you are alluding to.. Thank you for sharing and I respect that and also respect the courage it take to be honest over ones fear –maybe it is more a male thing.. even so.. thank you! I am still curious to know though.. if you found it non beneficial to be coerced by your fear into that full defensive mode and over time became wise to that fear feeling and then forced your self to go on the attack.. Even though this has improved your effectiveness 1000 fold does it matter that the fear has not left and the implication is that the same fear is still making you dance only now to a different, more attacking tune, if you follow? Is fear useful? I mean it is some time like “hey I have no control over it.. amygdala, adrenaline..” etc etc.. I mean I wonder just because we “feel” a physical sensation can we trust our emotional reasoning that because that sensation feels real and so the fear must be proportionately bad?  And I am not questioning you my friend.. I am questioning myself using your example and hoping your insight is as helpful as before.. wishes Jx



Sorry for the delay in responding, but I wanted to ensure I gave a fair answer to your questions.

Fear is a useful emotion that generally keeps us safe.  Issues arise when fear cripples the mind from seeking other solutions to problems.  I would say I have become friends with my fear.  We better understand each other.  Perhaps my attempt to respond briefly before didn't fully characterize this new found relationship.  I would not say "attack" is the only option I now deploy, but rather you have to engage/do something to get out of the given situation.  I now do not allow the fear inside me to limit or cripple my thoughts.  If anything it has empowered me....even if the new solution is to evade.  Evasion is now on my own conscience terms, not an instinctive reaction to fear.

Example.  Sparring larger opponent who plays to their advantage and "bull rushes" me.  They attack.  This time instead of fear driving the bus into a defensive mode (human punching bag), I scream simple words in my head (internal/not audible) like "Move", "Knee", "Jab", "Run", etc.  These simple words initiate action and gets me out of the fear loop.  I have found simple words to be most effective as they limit the amount of brain power used for a combat situation.

This has allowed me to engage the brain and not run off emotion, at least to some degree.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 24, 2015)

Jenna said:


> What you suggest.. some of it is easier said than done, no? I mean not ignoring thoughts counter to ones own opinion means accepting ones own opinion may not be the best opinion to have.. that is easy for you to accept?? Not maybe for everyone.. like just look at this forum or any other.. it is full of inability to accept.. what is the mindset that permits the thought.. I concede my opinion is maybe not the best opinion.. what need to happen to bring this about?? While it seem prudent, still it also requires an openness and humility not everyone have.. how can this be taught? I think you are insightful btw Jx



It's not so much ignoring you're own thoughts as it is exploring other possibilities.  It's not dropping your own opinion. It's foraging for new data to gather as much truth as you can. Who knows. Maybe you were wrong. Or more simply, there's more to it than you currently understand. Only one way to find out, and you can only gain from it. Unless you've really understood, in depth, a different perspective from your own, you can't know for certain how right or wrong you are. Or how much you fully understand something. Additionally, in debate, it results in people arguing points that don't stick or don't apply, because they aren't addressing the real heart of the thing or why someone thinks the way the do.
For that reason, I think it's good to understand as many opinions as you can. Even if you disagree with them. Even if you initially find  them flat out ridiculous. You might learn something and _stilli _disagree. xD

It's different when educated people argue about things they already understand. It's not an inability to accept. It's a difference in one person's gathered data making a person come to a different conclusion than another due to potentially infinite variables. 

What needs to happen open someone's mind? Well...I can only think of one essential prerequisite that needs to be. Besides that, I think coming on to this way of thinking could be different for everyone. Basically, you need to believe that the knowledge or understanding you already have is not complete. Ever. Technically, I suppose it's possible to reach a point where it is complete I any specific subject, but that hypothetical point will like likely never be reached. You need to believe that you have more to learn about *everything*, and that it can be found anywhere. Even in unexpected places. You need to be on the hunt for truth that is yet to be found.
I heard it once like this. Think of life like a block of stone your trying to carve a statue out of. That statue is truth, and everything around it is just other stuff. You will always be scraping away more and more stone, building a more and more detailed statue. People often believe that they are currently the best version of themselves, even though they've changed in the past and are even now, changing constantly. They are the *latest* version of themselves, perfection and flaws both, and they will change again in the future. Trying to build a better statue.


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## Shai Hulud (Jun 25, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Shai Hulud, dear M, I agree whole heartedly with your appraisal of limits, it is a great thing to know and understand.. I think it is always possible to go just one more  And I would like to ask how you learned not to doubt your self because I think this is a common and often not spoken way among all of us?  Thank you Jxxx


Aww, you still remember my name!

It wasn't much, really. It's actually very much connected to what we chatted about last time. Just the process of learning, observing yourself as you learn, and polishing it to your fit of perfection at the end of every day, and repeating this every day.  I've always believed that at least once a week, we should always leave our comfort zones with regard to training/practice.


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## Zero (Jun 25, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I appreciate you taking time and I hope your work is treating you fair.. Your honest view of your self make it easy to listen and trust what you have written thank you..


Sorry, again, have been travelling and was not able to respond earlier, I tried remotely but it didn't seem to load.  The conversation has moved on but I wanted to reply as I appreciate your questions (especially your last question, as this to me is the most important and fundamental of them).



Jenna said:


> You have said some thing.. “My sensei told me that once I get others in my life that I care for, then their safety, and also my staying alive and sticking around to be there for them, becomes paramount.” that resonate with me so much I am inclined to ask you Z are you in this situation now of having others in your life whose safety you care for? I am interested in what ‘clicked’ with you in this depiction that made you change from deliberately NOT avoiding confrontation to seeing this bigger or wider picture? I mean there must have been one particular situation you would have normally reacted agressively to that you did not.. do you remember this?


Yes, now, and for some time there are others in my life I care for. Around the time of these discussions with my sensei, I had been going out with a girl that I cared for a lot.  And that really brought home this point about not dragging others in, either directly by having them there during a confrontation or indirectly by having to be the one spoon feeding you in hospital or posting your bail. It was this that made things click and enabled me to see that there was a bigger picture.
To be honest, there was no one "situataion" I walked away from, there were many.  But now, and for a very long time, there really are no such situations.  With a different mindset and outlook, these situations just do not exist or present themselves.



Jenna said:


> You use the term worthless ego.. can you tell me a bit more about why you say your ego is worthless? I do not at all disagree.. I would like to know how you come by this description?


Now, drive and self-esteem are important in my opinion.  I think it is important and right that each person should have a good sense of self-worth and even pride in themselves. You should not self-idolise but I see no harm in taking pride (to a healthy degree) in the good you have done for others or in things you have achieved.  Drive is also key to pushing yourself beyound the boundaries you had perceived and thought, or were told by others, existed.

I do see these things as different to "ego" however. Many seem to need some vision or self-inflated "ideal of themselves" as a kind of crutch or support to hold themselves (emotionally, and sometimes it seems even physically) up in life and to get ahead.  They are focused on thier own vision of themselves and what their place in the grand scheme of things should be - be it in the dojo, in the workplace, at the local watering hole or simply their position in society in general.  They may be very good at what they do, but they do what they do simply to boost and bulster their own feelings of worth or power.  There is no problem being the "best" at something (that never lasts for long in any event) but to go about thinking to yourself "I am the best and everyone else can suck my peanut butter coated waffle dog" is in my view, just a tad over the top!!  You do not need this kind of attitude to do great things and it can, in my view, actually cheapen yourself and the greatness you would otherwise be doing.



Jenna said:


> And regarding when you intervened on behalf of another.. ha I like that you were not suited up like Spidey lol.. only one thing strike me and I wonder of my self.. why are other people worth intervening for? Why do we care? Why do you care? Thank you again! I am grateful to you Jxxxx


This is interesting and could probably have several psychology/sociology books/volumes devoted to it!!
One aspect is the societal or even biological wiring whereby, if one or several parts of a society go (potentially putting themselves in harms way) to assist another person faced with danger, then this is of benefit to the group as a whole and each individual of that group - as they in turn can hope/expect assistance from others that do not actually know them in their time of need.  Unfortunately from what I have seen, this outlook or societal mechanism seems to have been severly eroded in the last 50(??) years or so, in some (most) of the societies I am familiar with.  People, often those that could help (albeit with danger to themselves) will not get involved when someone is being picked on or even beaten up on the metro train or in the street.  Even when there are several bystanders, where with simply force of number they could overpower the assailent(s), they do not get involved, the bystanders simply hope they will not become involved.  I would say that of course there are numerous exceptions to this - but my issue and concern is that I think it is coming close (or we are alreadt there!) to intervention by bystanders being the exception and not the other way around.

Another view is people wanting to help others, without any thought of the societal matrix (ie help others and expect help in return) or of any overall advantage to humantiy or themselves.  They are simply acting to assist another in need.  The problem is, once you have loved ones and children yourself or other dependants, it can be hard not to assess the situation and think "right I can wade in there and take out that thug and help that old lady" and "crap, I need to act but there are [3] of those thugs beating on that guy and no one's helping, I could end up in the hosptial or in the ground if I step in and who's gonna feed my kids if that happens?".  These assessments can be done in microseconds of course and some people are of the make-up that they will simply act to help others without thought - and maybe that is a great thing.

This is a complicated area!

We should care for others because quite frankly, why do you want to exist in a world where your fellow humans do not care for you?  Who wants that as a reality?  What does it hurt you to help and give assistance, be it physical, mental or finanical, to others?  Your fellow human beings can impart amazing experiences and emotions on you.

I am far from a peace-hippy and have a relatively jaded, or open eyed outlook on the world, and as admitted earlier, have struggled to stay away from violence but it would be a great thing if we could stop beating on each other, I mean that on a local level and also international, policitcal and (I'll throw it in there) religious level.  I have had friendships and experiences (and help) in the Middle East with Arabs, with Jews, very close friendships with Chinese and good business relations with South Americans.  It seems on a one-to-one level and in times of need "man" can get on with and be great friends with any other "man".  But it all breaks down on a larger scale, a damn shame.

Wowzers!  Were did that come from??!!


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## Jenna (Jun 25, 2015)

@Transk53, Hey thank you for your thoughts, I am grateful.. when you say “However, even if it is wrong to me, if the opinion has substance then I mark it as something to delve further into and explore the nitty gritty of it,” I think that is extremely prudent and best way to continue learning no matter what the circumstances.. and but I want to ask if you are able maintain objectivity even when it is a opinion about you in a personal way or about your performance?  I guess perhaps it is in the way it is relayed? Which seem to happen with member Orange Lightning where comments or criticism seemed not altogether level.. a little patronising or disparaging.. I mean if an instructor criticises in order that you improve, that is one thing.. if, say there is some personality conflict, their criticism might be no less valid.. we might disregard it because we cannot see past the feeling of being personally belittled?? Does this make sense??  If so, how do you stay objective, like you say listening though also hearing the music? How? Thank you again! Jxx



@Xue Sheng, yes analysing like a scientist seems very valid and rational.. Not always successful at blending with life.. hmm.. I feel the same.. though maybe the question need to be asked.. what defines successful in blending with life? Could we be measuring it against the wrong standard? I mean like you are still here, blending in your way, so am I in mine and every one else.. It is not perfection we would aim at?? What might it mean to be not successful per se, and but successful enough at blending with life? Hmm.. I would need to think about that, I will go ask my Tao of Pooh! What do you say XS?? Thank you again my friend Jxxx



@EddieCyrax, ooh do not be sorry! I welcome your thoughts when you have them  I like how you make friends with your fear.. In a way is it like you are getting around this with your method of comandeering I guess – would that be right to say? or is it distracting? the active part of your mind? It is a very interesting way to deal with this situation that would maybe be otherwise avoided? This is a way you had figured for your self or is it prescribed in some syllabus or book maybe?

Well I want to ask you more about fear Eddie.. like in MA or SD in particular what is it we fear? Getting beat? Getting hurt? Physical damage? Perhaps we fear for our lives even?? All of these things we fear them at some stage.. I want to ask you because it seems you have done much thinking on this also your self.. I do not know if I can make this question clear enough or explain my self I will try..

Can you not want a thing to happen without FEARING that thing to happen? Like I do not want to get hurt.. is it possible for me or anybody to not want to get hurt and but not FEAR getting hurt and then avoid that as you say crippling and not useful emotion in there??? I wonder are these just the same – not wanting a thing or preferring not.. and fearing that thing?  How would you see it? Thank you Jxx



@Orange Lightning, yes I get what you are saying.. it is more about balance or reasonable compromise rather.. Hmm I think I understand what you are saying about “educated” people and gathered data and infinite variables.. though – and forgive me for interjecting my own thought – though it has been my experience that there are those in certain empiracal / scientific/research circles that will manipulate the data to suit their hypothesis and ignore or classify as anomalous the data that do not, rather than openly testing that hypothesis.. what is with that??

I subscribe to same view about conceding that we can never have a perfect knowledge.  This for me is humility in MA (or any field) and it is not weakness rather help us to improve.. though I wonder is there another level to this.. some one can say, even believe.. I do not know every thing that is plain.. and but what they can mean is.. I do not know every thing that is plain yet still I know more than you know.. I believe that is the conceit that can pass readily for advice.. how do you see that?

And then you say you need to be on the hunt for the truth that is yet to be found.. and that has caused me interest since you have capability for deep thinking then it would be good if you can say when you write this what truth it is you are hunting? or like what did you mean specifically? It is like the statue you are carving.. when is the time you stop chiselling? Thank you again Jx



@Shai Hulud, gracious no I could not forget at all because there is an essence in your name that is differently reflected in your username and that is always fascinating to me  thank you for your thoughts here! Oh are you saying you can have a different perfection at the end of each day?? That sounds awesome if I am understanding you correctly.. that would mean there is no pointless drive to ultimate perfection just that you have a fit of perfection different for each different day.. wow I like that a lot. And can you tell me when you leave your comfort zone is that a planned departure or is it a spontaneous happening right on the spot?? Your way of training is more than interesting and I should like to try this too.. what is the best way you have found to do this getting out of your comfort zone?? Thank you again my clever friend xxx



@Zero, You have a lot of insight tucked away I am grateful that you consider posting it here thank you x.. So you say with a different mindset and outlook these confrontational situations now just do not exist.. that is fascinating because I have wondered about this.. might there be a cause and effect like can a certain mindset increase or diminish the potential for a physical confrontation beyond just what we do our selves like project some thing to others or out to the situation / environment / dojo / workplace whatever? Is interesting..

I think in your humility there is strength it is like I see it to put what you have called worthless ego in the crucible and refine like trial by fire I think is the term.. maybe when impurities are burned away what is left is refined and toughened and sharpened and thus need not strike as hard to have same effect.. thank you for sharing this.. there are ripples about you that reach others.. 

Then maybe like you say there is some thing in us that seek to save or help another even though we understand we will be at risk.. then what happen? Ego intervene?? “I” must protect “me” even though if we acted as community we protect each other and we are all the better off and safer?? Also there is another emotional outcome after we have refused to offer our assistance (or have helped our family at anothers expense) .. we have guilt or regret, yes? ego must intervene here to cover its worthless butt and say.. ah yes and but *I* would have been damaged or *my* family would have been at risk (which is nevertheless about *I* being deprived of family).. it is like the connivances of ego assuages some thing deeper and more steadfast than even itself??

I do not know about peace hippies.. perhaps there is a right place for that.. perhaps even in each of us.. perhaps too we do MA so we need not defer to being peace hippies if it is what is needed?? Yet needed must be specified.. what is the right need? why is it we do MA in this environment.. to protect our selves.. our possessions (property, family as possessions or needs).. it seem natural I cannot argue.. I am just wondering.. we can use it for this good you suggest yes? like you have used it beyond just for you.. for others that cannot stand up to some one.. I have done same.. others also.. why? What is it about? We train juniors likewise that they can keep their selves safe.. why do we care? All of the reasons you mention.. some thing deeper too.. you have alluded to it.. maybe this is where the lesson is.. maybe this is the unhiding.. maybe this is where Wowzers where did that come from actually came from? 

I learn a lot from this thank you and can I share that peanut butter coated waffle dog I imagine it to be some thing delicious!!  Jxx


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 25, 2015)

@Jenna 


Jenna said:


> yes I get what you are saying.. it is more about balance or reasonable compromise rather.. Hmm I think I understand what you are saying about “educated” people and gathered data and infinite variables.. though – and forgive me for interjecting my own thought – though it has been my experience that there are those in certain empiracal / scientific/research circles that will manipulate the data to suit their hypothesis and ignore or classify as anomalous the data that do not, rather than openly testing that hypothesis.. what is with that??
> 
> I subscribe to same view about conceding that we can never have a perfect knowledge. This for me is humility in MA (or any field) and it is not weakness rather help us to improve.. though I wonder is there another level to this.. some one can say, even believe.. I do not know every thing that is plain.. and but what they can mean is.. I do not know every thing that is plain yet still I know more than you know.. I believe that is the conceit that can pass readily for advice.. how do you see that?
> 
> And then you say you need to be on the hunt for the truth that is yet to be found.. and that has caused me interest since you have capability for deep thinking then it would be good if you can say when you write this what truth it is you are hunting? or like what did you mean specifically? It is like the statue you are carving.. when is the time you stop chiselling? Thank you again Jx



- There is a term for that. It's called confirmation bias. Quite a common form of bias. Probably one of the easiest ones to have. It's even found in professional scientists and experts. It's an easy thing to miss.
Think about it like this. Let's say you want to test a hypothesis. So you set up an experiment to see if you were right in any capacity. The experiment results in equal parts positive and negative data. Are you concerned that you're hypothesis wasn't consistently correct or are you just amped that, on some level, you were on to something? Most people will follow that thread, most of the time. Forgetting about other possibilities and the rest of the data and possible implications to see if the truth they wanted exists. If they get to the end and find that it's wrong completely, only then will they go back and examine data and notice details they didn't consider before. At that point, they do another experiment.
Another good example of why it's so important to understand other points of view.  

- I don't think I understand the question you're asking with this second paragraph. Could you rephrase? 

-I'm looking for any truth I can find on any matter I can. When I say truth, I mean *hard facts*. Inarguable things around which opinions can be made. Outside of things that are just mathematical, I try to find bit of truth in things that are everyday, but are more complicated than their face value. Like music. Movies. People. Conversation. Right up to and including, however cliche, the meaning of life. xD   Etc. Things that may seem or can be very simple or very complex.   Martial arts is one of those things that is.....subjective. Complicated. Seems simple in some ways, but in it's entirety, is incredibly complicated. Martial arts in particular is so complicated that even these "hard facts" are nuanced, flexible, or difficult to define. And when people fight, all that is condensed into a single moment, and spread back out when the contenders push back apart. So it makes these truths even harder to perceive. Additionally, because sit all comes down to a single moment, we could each have all the knowledge possible on martial arts and *still* it would be subjective, because we would choose different solutions. But that isn't to say that these facts don't exists. Only that we'll choose to use them differently. 
The statue is never finished. There is always more to find. More to think about. More to learn and experience and be. There will likely come times when you think you've totally figured something out, only to find another thread you need to follow. I've been there.


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## Flatfish (Jun 25, 2015)

> @Flatfish, hey it is good to read our comment and encouraging to hear you have made these discoveries of your self.. so your competitiveness has been uncovered through your MA, yes? And would you be able to say are things better now for you since you have revealed your competitive side? Thank you, Jx



@Jenna Sorry for the late response. I actually had to think about this for a while. I would say that some other positive things have come out of this, yes.

First off directly MA related I would say it has made a great difference in how I approach sparring. I used to be just in "survival mode", i.e. hang in there and get it over with (that whole fear thing again). Now I tend to be less intimidated, more thoughtful and analytic and have realized that even the toughest opponents in my dojang leave openings to exploit (sometimes). So instead of just accepting that I will get my rear end handed to me like I did previously, I will now look to do something against it and it seems to be working quite well.

I have noticed changes at work as well.  I constantly have to compete for money externally to be able to do my work (grants). I tended to be quite demoralized when that did not work out too well and have over the last few months found fresh energy to stay in the game. I have also noticed I stand up for myself more during internal struggles.

In addition to MA I have started to challenge myself physically more in other complementary areas as well. Someone else mentioned "mastering your body" earlier in this thread and that sums up perfectly how I have been feeling about my training. I would say that  if you  succeed there little by little, step by step, it is bound to transfer into other areas of your life.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Xue Sheng, yes analysing like a scientist seems very valid and rational.. Not always successful at blending with life.. hmm.. I feel the same.. though maybe the question need to be asked.. what defines successful in blending with life? Could we be measuring it against the wrong standard? I mean like you are still here, blending in your way, so am I in mine and every one else.. It is not perfection we would aim at?? What might it mean to be not successful per se, and but successful enough at blending with life? Hmm.. I would need to think about that, I will go ask my Tao of Pooh! What do you say XS?? Thank you again my friend Jxxx



Perfection...no....

From Taoism 101: Introduction to the Tao



> People expect and think that the goal of life is perfection… it’s not… you should desire for being good at something and to embrace the various little imperfections… that end up actually being defining characteristics of each of us. The little bits of imperfection we each have are elements of chaos that give each person individuality and distinction. Without our little flaws we wouldn’t be individuals at all! Taoism teaches us how to accept both the best and worse parts of our life.


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## Transk53 (Jun 25, 2015)

Hey thank you for your thoughts, I am grateful.. when you say “However, even if it is wrong to me, if the opinion has substance then I mark it as something to delve further into and explore the nitty gritty of it,” I think that is extremely prudent and best way to continue learning no matter what the circumstances.. and but I want to ask if you are able maintain objectivity even when it is a opinion about you in a personal way or about your performance? I guess perhaps it is in the way it is relayed? Which seem to happen with member Orange Lightning where comments or criticism seemed not altogether level.. a little patronising or disparaging.. I mean if an instructor criticises in order that you improve, that is one thing.. if, say there is some personality conflict, their criticism might be no less valid.. we might disregard it because we cannot see past the feeling of being personally belittled?? Does this make sense?? If so, how do you stay objective, like you say listening though also hearing the music? How? Thank you again! 

Because I hear the music, a construct of of noise that only I can decipher and that of those that can hear, those that are on the the spectrum. It is a wonderful thing that I simply cannot enunciate. It is a different world that I walk, but one that is no different than the norm, you just have to hear the music. When you hear the song, you understand the music, when the music resides, the patterns become clear. In a simplistic view, life is music


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## Jenna (Jun 29, 2015)

@Orange Lightning, regarding MA “facts” and the case for empirical proofs maybe there is a further caveat too.. what is empirically proven for one martial artist cannot be taken as authority by another.. is that true or not do you think??

I am just asking as I have not read your empirical proofs -though forgive me I have probably missed them elsewhere? I wonder what proofs of your own you discovered and why,it seems, you feel it is true what has been told to you that your own empirical proofs are not as worthy as those of supposedly educated or expert others in MA? Thank you Jx


@Flatfish, thank you for elaborating on how you do things differently since discovering your MA on the mats and off! I have heard others also speak of increased ability to “stand up” in non fight situations.. how do you think this works? I mean it is not as if you are going to hit some one if you are having to deal with work struggles?  It is very encouraging to hear the beneficial impact your MA has had to your own self-discovery! Thank yo ufor sharing Jx


@Transk53, you put this poetically.. I do not know if you are on any level being literal.. like this sound not too far from how someone who is synesthesic will relate their experience, yes? I understand how you speak of understanding a piece of music though I am unclear on how this analogy translates into dealing with others or the world? can anyone use this way of understanding?? If you could explain I would be grateful.. thank you, Jx


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## Flatfish (Jun 29, 2015)

@Jenna 

No of course I am not going to hit someone at work (as tempting as that may sometimes be  )

I just think that if you go up against someone who is trying to kick you in the face (even when it's friendly sparring) it puts verbal arguments in a different perspective, i.e. you will not feel quite as uncomfortable in a verbal situation as in a physical situation.


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## Argus (Jun 29, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> It's not so much ignoring you're own thoughts as it is exploring other possibilities.  It's not dropping your own opinion. It's foraging for new data to gather as much truth as you can. Who knows. Maybe you were wrong. Or more simply, there's more to it than you currently understand. Only one way to find out, and you can only gain from it. Unless you've really understood, in depth, a different perspective from your own, you can't know for certain how right or wrong you are. Or how much you fully understand something. Additionally, in debate, it results in people arguing points that don't stick or don't apply, because they aren't addressing the real heart of the thing or why someone thinks the way the do.
> For that reason, I think it's good to understand as many opinions as you can. Even if you disagree with them. Even if you initially find  them flat out ridiculous. You might learn something and _stilli _disagree. xD
> 
> It's different when educated people argue about things they already understand. It's not an inability to accept. It's a difference in one person's gathered data making a person come to a different conclusion than another due to potentially infinite variables.
> ...



This is perhaps one of the most profound and intelligent posts I've read on this forum. I'd like to like it a few hundred more times, but I'm sadly unable to do so. It encompasses the most important aspect of anyone's training or discussion of martial arts, and identifies the traps that I see time and time again, which even here on MT so many threads fall into. It really doesn't deserve to get buried and lost!

In any case, quoted for truth.

That's humility -- open mindedness, and the realization of how little you know and the value of exploring and entertaining a wide diversity of disciplines, principles, methods, and approaches in order to come to a more complete, more objective understanding. Anything short of that -- assuming that you simply "know what you need to" and making broad, dismissive judgments about things -- so common in the discussion of martial arts, only indicates delusion and narrow mindedness. Essentially, it indicates that you're unwilling to search for a more complete understanding, and that you'd rather just blindly believe that the world fits neatly into your very narrow and limited framework. There's not a whole lot of potential to grow with that outlook, frankly, but there is a whole lot of potential to be willfully wrong about everything and remain that way.

Productive criticism is useful. It expresses concern, but nonetheless explores a premise with an open mind and tries to identify shortcomings as well as any potential.

Dismissive criticism serves very little use, and for the most part stifles productive inquiry. It serves to propagate a view of "what we want the world to be" far more than it serves to cultivate a view of "what the world actually is." Unfortunately, it seems to be the more common approach.


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## Jenna (Jun 30, 2015)

Argus said:


> Dismissive criticism serves very little use, and for the most part stifles productive inquiry. It serves to propagate a view of "what we want the world to be" far more than it serves to cultivate a view of "what the world actually is." Unfortunately, it seems to be the more common approach.


Why do you think we feel certain criticism of our self is dismissive? it is how we perceive the intent of the giver? I would be interested if you could say how do you your self  differentiate constructive from dismissive criticism?  thank you, Jx


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## Jenna (Jun 30, 2015)

Flatfish said:


> @Jenna
> 
> No of course I am not going to hit someone at work (as tempting as that may sometimes be  )
> 
> I just think that if you go up against someone who is trying to kick you in the face (even when it's friendly sparring) it puts verbal arguments in a different perspective, i.e. you will not feel quite as uncomfortable in a verbal situation as in a physical situation.


That is interesting.. so you are saying because we feel we can handle, to a greater or lesser extent, a physical confrontation, then we think a verbal situation by comparison is a walk in the park, yes?? 

I am interested Flatfish to know if there is any aspect of feeling confident in this workplace verbal situation that relies on us imagining that we could put our argumentative workplace colleague/boss on their back if we had to? even though we know that is unlikely? or maybe that is just me lols..  thank you again, Jxx


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## Zero (Jun 30, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I learn a lot from this thank you and can I share that peanut butter coated waffle dog I imagine it to be some thing delicious!!  Jxx


If you are ever in the UK/London we can share that peanut butter coated waffle dog.  To be honest, I almost chocked on my coffee when I read your reply!  But I have been thinking and you know what, maybe that waffle dog could be damn tasty!
peace!
And thanks for the great posts, this is a really great thread and the responses from people have been illuminating.


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## Jenna (Jun 30, 2015)

Zero said:


> If you are ever in the UK/London we can share that peanut butter coated waffle dog.  To be honest, I almost chocked on my coffee when I read your reply!  But I have been thinking and you know what, maybe that waffle dog could be damn tasty!
> peace!
> And thanks for the great posts, this is a really great thread and the responses from people have been illuminating.


I never cease to be amazed at the responses people give.. there is so much to be shared and learned that I can only apologise if this thread is all over the place or about nothing in particular it is because  everybody have their own story and experiences and each can teach the other.. thank you for your inputs! I am happy to hear whichever things you have learned that can help some one else.. Oh haha NW1 London is my home! I have just not been back for a number of years now  where on earth are you eating these things??  Jxxx


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## Zero (Jun 30, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I never cease to be amazed at the responses people give.. there is so much to be shared and learned that I can only apologise if this thread is all over the place or about nothing in particular it is because  everybody have their own story and experiences and each can teach the other.. thank you for your inputs! I am happy to hear whichever things you have learned that can help some one else.. Oh haha NW1 London is my home! I have just not been back for a number of years now  where on earth are you eating these things??  Jxxx


Ha! Crazy! So you lived by the Zoo!   I'm living in SE but work in Mayfair, there's a waffle outlet by Bond Street (Pure Waffle) that do the waffle dog action.  They don't have this down to a perfection though.

The peanut condiment was my idea but am sure in the States they have been dipping their dogs in peanut butter for years! I used to dunk my sausages in the peanut tub (I'm talking literally here, not on some metaphorical level, ok!) as a kid and it drove my mum bonkers.

I'm originally from NZ and it's funny as so much of NZ is based on old school England but then many aspects of US food, etc have worked their way in also.  The standard fare at the food stands in the fun fairs in NZ when I was a kid was the corn dog. Here at the UK fairs, festivals etc it's just the plain hot dog in a bun mainly. I so miss those corn dogs (!!) dunked in ketchup, but they are no where near as popular here!


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## Flatfish (Jun 30, 2015)

Jenna said:


> That is interesting.. so you are saying because we feel we can handle, to a greater or lesser extent, a physical confrontation, then we think a verbal situation by comparison is a walk in the park, yes??
> 
> I am interested Flatfish to know if there is any aspect of feeling confident in this workplace verbal situation that relies on us imagining that we could put our argumentative workplace colleague/boss on their back if we had to? even though we know that is unlikely? or maybe that is just me lols..  thank you again, Jxx




The first part yes, the second part definitely a no. It just seems work squabbles are not as important as someone trying to "hurt" you physically.


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## Argus (Jun 30, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Why do you think we feel certain criticism of our self is dismissive? it is how we perceive the intent of the giver? I would be interested if you could say how do you your self  differentiate constructive from dismissive criticism?  thank you, Jx



I was referring to how we pass judgement and criticism ourselves (not other people criticizing us). Actually, I should have used the word skepticism, perhaps.


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## Balrog (Jun 30, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Balrog, your MA has taught you some valuable skills beyond the mats thank you for sharing.. I want to ask you few things.. can you have respect for some one when they have none for you?  And how can we aspire to mastery when like you say, we know there is always some thing new to learn? Thank you  Jx


Thank you.  In terms of respect, it's supposed to be a two-way street.  Sometimes, though, it isn't.  I know a couple of people where I "bow to the belt".  I respect their technical skills, but as far as them as a person, not so much.

As far as mastery, I am a Master Instructor.  To me, a big part of that means that I've gotten really good at being a student.  We're all students.  If we stop learning, we start to stagnate and die.  It all ties into the concept that it's not the destination, it's the journey that's important.


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## Jenna (Jul 2, 2015)

@Zero See it is true about all the awesome stuff people are like.. I would not even have dreamt of a sausage related learning here lol.. And you work in Mayfair and live in SE and so that suggests you are possibly *not* the ambassador.. which is a pity because I could have totally helped you eat your Ferrero haha.. And NZ always seemed like the idyll to me though that was probably based more on 1990s Michael Palin than any thing real life.. or maybe every one takes a bungee jump before work?  Jx


@Flatfish ok I understand how you mean.. Can you say, how do you think this could help when trying to deal with someone at work that was bullying?  I mean would a feeling of confidence from practicing MA help us to deal differently than if we had not? thank you, Jx




Argus said:


> I was referring to how we pass judgement and criticism ourselves (not other people criticizing us). Actually, I should have used the word skepticism, perhaps.


I have heard it reasoned that self-criticism or skepticism keeps a person sharper or stifles either pride or complacency.. would you say there is no place for this kind of thinking? thank you Jx




Balrog said:


> As far as mastery, I am a Master Instructor.  To me, a big part of that means that I've gotten really good at being a student.  We're all students.  If we stop learning, we start to stagnate and die.  It all ties into the concept that it's not the destination, it's the journey that's important.


I like how you word that.. I think there is a lot implied in how you say you have gotten really good at being a student.. It is like maybe there is a certain student mindset that possibly not all students have?? I imagine there is more to being a student, and a good one, than just a superficial word.. what do you think makes you good at being a student can I ask? Thank you again, Jxx


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## Zero (Jul 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> See it is true about all the awesome stuff people are like.. I would not even have dreamt of a sausage related learning here lol.. And you work in Mayfair and live in SE and so that suggests you are possibly *not* the ambassador.. which is a pity because I could have totally helped you eat your Ferrero haha.. And NZ always seemed like the idyll to me though that was probably based more on 1990s Michael Palin than any thing real life.. or maybe every one takes a bungee jump before work? :D Jx




Ok, so I am going to be biased but NZ is absolutely an awesome place to live in or to travel through, particularly if you are into the great outdoors and love the sea. Great forests and ocean action awaits and it is all so accessible. Palin got it right...I recommend you go check it out some day, it's only a paltry 13 hours flight or so from the US anyways!  : )

And, we surf before work or skin possums, the bungee and skydiving is all done after work naturally.  :)


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## Orange Lightning (Jul 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Orange Lightning, regarding MA “facts” and the case for empirical proofs maybe there is a further caveat too.. what is empirically proven for one martial artist cannot be taken as authority by another.. is that true or not do you think??
> 
> I am just asking as I have not read your empirical proofs -though forgive me I have probably missed them elsewhere? I wonder what proofs of your own you discovered and why,it seems, you feel it is true what has been told to you that your own empirical proofs are not as worthy as those of supposedly educated or expert others in MA? Thank you Jx



Well, there are no absolutes. Between styles, and even person to person, there are almost certainly different truths. I haven't written any of these "truths" anywhere for this reason. It's almost impossible to explain them because there are always going to be exceptions to the statement. I often find these things are....small. Very small nuggets of truth.  Whether they just be physics or saying something like, " In this scenario, if this happens, and I do this, that happens.". And in that tiny context, and very well may be a perceivable fact_. _But that's just the thing of it. It's going to be different for everyone.

Here's the caveat about "truth". It's 2 sided coin. Or a multi-sided die perhaps. Multiple opposite opinions, all simultaneously true. What may be true for one martial artist or style could invite the disadvantage, or rather, lack of advantage that the other option has. And the reverse is true. The other style or martial artist has chosen specific truths to wield, fully aware of the pro's and con's. Perhaps aware of the other method's pro's and cons, you stick to your guns. You can't use both at once, so you midas well use the one that enables you the most. Although, you could switch between them, if you wanted.
Kind of comes full circle with what I was talking about earlier. Metaphorically, these nuggets of truth shine light on the dark unknown of a situation. This allotment of truths, to me, is style.

I don't think I understand this last question. Could you reword it?

@Argus  - Thanks Argus.   Very good to hear.


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## Flatfish (Jul 2, 2015)

> @Flatfish ok I understand how you mean.. Can you say, how do you think this could help when trying to deal with someone at work that was bullying?  I mean would a feeling of confidence from practicing MA help us to deal differently than if we had not? thank you, Jx



Hmm, interesting question. Honestly I don't have to deal with bullies much at work seeing as I am in a "sophisticated academic environment (LOLz)" but maybe two recent events might be of interest:

A) I have a new boss who is very stingy with resources to the point that she won't "invest" in efforts to improve the quality of the work that is being done. I asked her to help with matching some resources on a grant that would bring in a significant amount of money and she flat out refused. In the past I would have let it go, being too worried to get in trouble etc. This time I went straight to her boss and got things straightened out. Would not have happened a year ago and frankly it did not bother me one bit if had she gotten mad at me.(I actually don't know if she did or not, whatever). I think that is newly won confidence. Also, I have been in this job for 10 years so not unfamiliar with how things work.


B) My 8yo daughter who trains with me, has made some huge strides this year figuring out how to deal with people. She has always been a follower with not much self esteem. She has recently figured out to stay away from the popular girls if the popular girls are being little witches and find some real friends. But more to the point, for the end of the school year they put on a little talent show and she got dolled up in her Dobok, performed one of our forms and broke a board in front of 50-60 people. Two days later she told me that she stood up to a bully at school, not for herself but on behalf of some other girl who she doesn't even know. I'm sure simply growing up is part of that but I would like to think that her MA training contributed as well.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 3, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I am interested to know of any one here..
> 
> What has doing your MA taught you about your self as a person?
> 
> ...



Something else I learned, not directly from martial arts, but in a way it is because I train martial arts I came to this and it does directly apply to martial arts, particularly when you are talking conflict.

We have too many expectations, we build too many scripts and scenarios in our heads going into everything is it any wonder that we are unhappy, discontented, unsatisfied or confused. Or as it applies to a martial situation what we do does not work. It is rarely If they do ‘A’ then I shall do ‘B’ or if I do ‘B’ they will do ‘C’ in just about everything. Even in Xingyiquan 5 elements that talk about the production and destruction of the 5 elements and associate that with specific postures you still need to train those postures in different orders because, in reality where regulations do not apply, there is no “if they do ‘A’ I do ‘B’. So thinking that way is prone to failure

Same in life; just think about going to meet someone, and all the things you start going over in your head; conversations, response to conversation, things that might happen or shouldn’t happen, etc.

It all gets to complicated and gets in the way of living


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## Balrog (Jul 3, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I like how you word that.. I think there is a lot implied in how you say you have gotten really good at being a student.. It is like maybe there is a certain student mindset that possibly not all students have?? I imagine there is more to being a student, and a good one, than just a superficial word.. what do you think makes you good at being a student can I ask? Thank you again, Jxx


Hard to put into words.  I guess the best way to put it is that I have learned to love learning.  It's the constant expanding of my physical and mental skills and faculties that appeals to me.


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## Transk53 (Jul 12, 2015)

@Jenna 
_you put this poetically.. I do not know if you are on any level being literal.. like this sound not too far from how someone who is synesthesic will relate their experience, yes? I understand how you speak of understanding a piece of music though *I am unclear on how this analogy translates into dealing with others *or the world? can anyone use this way of understanding?? If you could explain I would be grateful.. thank you, Jx_

Pretty awful really, my social skills are appalling. My customer service skills make most people cringe and no doubt leave seething inwardly and calling me a big wotsit. I am being literal, but not in the sense of relating to music or reading sheets etc. I have a daily routine that is pretty strict in make up and I can go ballistic at any hint of change, although these days I tend to cope better. Simply because I modified my daily approach. As for the music, I doubt that I could convey in terms that are understandable. Suffice to say to me it is the ebb and flow of my mind and how I relate my thoughts and how I think of the Earth in a completely non hippy way!!


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I am interested to know of any one here..
> 
> What has doing your MA taught you about your self as a person?
> 
> ...



I learnt to not underestimate other humans who are smaller and " weaker " looking than me. This does not say anything about a person. I also learnt to know myself much better when it comes to physical things, I know what I am able to do and I know what I will be able to do, which also makes me feel much safer and more self-confident.


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## D.Cobb (Aug 15, 2015)

I learned many years ago that the duality I was living was not getting me any where. I used to be a very angry man. I hated the world and would fight anybody if they reacted to my prompting in a certain way. One day I realised a choice needed to be made. I could be the guy in the karate club, that was loved and respected by all. Or I could be the guy outside of the karate club, that was liked by few and feared by many. On the toss up, I figured the guy outside the karate school wasn't doing too well, and so I made the decision to change.
Then I learned that change is a journey that I will hopefully never reach the end of...


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## Balrog (Sep 4, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Balrog, your MA has taught you some valuable skills beyond the mats thank you for sharing.. I want to ask you few things.. can you have respect for some one when they have none for you?  And how can we aspire to mastery when like you say, we know there is always some thing new to learn? Thank you  Jx


My apologies for taking so long to respond.  I'll answer your questions in reverse order.

I am a Master Instructor.  To me, that means I've become a really, really good student.  I continue to train with my seniors in all aspects: business management and teaching techniques for running my school, weapons training, and of course, my required form and material for my rank.  Teachers should never stop learning.  They stagnate when they do.

My answer to your question on respect is.....yes, to a degree.  I have some people in my organization where I "bow to the belt".  I respect them greatly for their techniques and their martial arts skills and I would not hesitate to learn from them.  But personally, they are jerks with overinflated egos who think the sun shines out of their butt because they are higher ranked than most everyone else.  

In any large group of people, you will always have some who fall under the left end of the bell curve.  You just have to find a way to deal with them.  I am always courteous and polite to them when we meet at tournaments or whatever, then I find a way to stay distant from them for the rest of the day.


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## Emilee <3 (Mar 25, 2016)

Jenna said:


> I am interested to know of any one here..
> 
> What has doing your MA taught you about your self as a person?
> 
> ...




I've learned that I can become a far more capable and confident person than I ever expected. I've also learned that martial arts isn't just a hobby, it's a lifestyle. And lastly, that even though I'm super tiny, I can still pack a punch (or a roundhouse kick haha).


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