# Boy, have things changed...



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2005)

My niece just tested for her BB in TKD today. (YAAYY Reb!).

But, man, have things changed. It was a school test, all the way from newbies, to BB's going for their next grade. The basics were horrible, and the board breaking was set up such that uncoordinated 8 year olds were blasting through them like styrofoam.

So much was done poorly, that the entire crowd present would break in to loud applause when someone managed to do something well. (except my niece, who was flawless, of course). They kinda got the exception/rule things turned all topsy turvy on itself. It saddened me to be in a room of so many cracker-jack box black belts...I don't think a one of them could have fought to save their lives, yet they managed to be very self-congratulatory.

I feel like I have an obligation to take her out of the cream puff factory, and get her started on something with more beef in it, but I can't figure out how to do it without diminishing the internal value her accomplihment has for her. May not ever be able to get there. But it really made me wonder...is that really yhe quality of what's being offered to the paying public?  I think I'd rather stick my head back in the ostrich hole, and reminesce about the good ole days with some of the old salts that remember cracking timber the hard way.

Mixed emotions,

D.


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## digitalronin (May 14, 2005)

Have u thought about giving her some private instruction.  Kids are often times smarter than people give them credit for.  If she is exposed to good training she will take note of the mediocrity of her current training and hopefully start demanding quality over fluff.


peace


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## distalero (May 14, 2005)

Why not put the style, and her efforts, in perspective for her and explain to her that she's done a good thing, been obviously successful in "the first steps", and that it will soon be time to take the next step if she chooses: checking out kenpo. Present to her, at most, 3 quietly rational reasons for moving to kenpo, then take her to the school you'd choose, have her watch. If she's at all analytical she'll see, or at least sense, the difference for her self. Hard sells don't work, especially with young folks (which I'm sure you knew) so you have to back away at this point. You can do this even less obviously: just take her to a workout "for fun". Introduce her as a new BB; it deserves some recognition. I If it's her time to move up, then that's all it will probably take; that, and the time it takes for anyone to come around to a better choice.


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## Steamboat (May 14, 2005)

My understanding from other posts is that you sometimes train in Doc Chapel's SL4.  Maybe you could take her to a class.  I have yet to here of anyone who was not a convert after an in the flesh demonstration of the SL4 methodology.


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## tshadowchaser (May 14, 2005)

First my congratulations to her on passing the test,

I must agree with what a couple others have said  don't try to force her to change styles but expose her to what is out there. Explaining that she is now ready to start learning something a little more complicated and effective.

If she insists on staying in TKD  find a different school for her.


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## digitalronin (May 14, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I must agree with what a couple others have said don't try to force her to change styles but expose her to what is out there. Explaining that she is now ready to start learning something a little more complicated and effective.


 does complexity go hand and hand with effectiveness? my two cents is that they do not, if one encounters a street fighter they dont really use a lot of complex manuevers, yet they win because they have the mindset to cause a great amount of injury in their opponets, shrug off hits to themselves, and just keep on going. This is not to say that complexity is bad, just some times overrated. In this case she can be taught to use her knowledge of basic movements in a manner that has more real-world application.



  peace,


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## tshadowchaser (May 14, 2005)

Agreed


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## KenpoDave (May 14, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I feel like I have an obligation to take her out of the cream puff factory, and get her started on something with more beef in it, but I can't figure out how to do it without diminishing the internal value her accomplihment has for her.



Try this:  "Wow, that test you took really impressed me.  With your skill and dedication, I would love to have a chance to work with you on some kenpo."


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## Mark Weiser (May 14, 2005)

The Insturctor I studied with today. Said Something that may help with this. Tell her that TKD is her base art and never forget it but use other arts to enhance her base system. 

You can assist her in studing other arts out there.


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## IWishToLearn (May 14, 2005)

I have a red belt in WTF Tae Kwon Do and I've found what most have found here...fantastic cardio...and that's about it. Mechanically I can say my kicking power and control are phenominally improved...but that's to be expected from running around at top speed kicking for an hour every day. I'm looking to learning Kenpo from several of the Masters in California as soon as possible to enhance my understanding of self defense and the intricacies and dynamics of body (mis)alignment and control without reliance on pain compliance.

 Eh..that went a different direction than I'd intended. Back to TKD and how to lead her without leading her. I shocked a couple of people at my school who just received their 1st Dans by putting them up against the wall and asking them what they'd do if someone grabbed them and did the same. The only one who could react without thinking seriously about what they had to do and wasting a couple of minutes in reflection was the gentleman who recently became a member of the Police force in the area. But he has had training other than TKD.

 Give her a self defense scenario that doesn't require a judge panel and requires a "real life" reaction time and see what she does. Odds are she'll ask you what she can do and if you have any suggestions. Great opener to show her the benefits of training in a self defense art.

 Since I'm no expert..that's my half cent.


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## MJS (May 15, 2005)

First, congrats. to her for the new rank!!! :ultracool 

You've had some great replies here, and I agree with many of them.  There is alot of variety out there, so you might try showing her a few things.  It just may paek her interest enough that it'll be easier to remove her from that atmosphere than you think.

Mike


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## Brother John (May 15, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> The basics were horrible
> So much was done poorly
> 
> I feel like I have an obligation to take her out of the cream puff factory, and get her started on something with more beef in it, but I can't figure out how to do it without diminishing the internal value her accomplihment has for her. Mixed emotions



Expose her to the beefier stuff, show her the "Better"...but let her decide on her own that it IS better. Don't make-up her mind for her, let her decide to leave the TKD for something better on her own. If it's not her choice, her heart won't be in it. It's got to be HER passion that moves her.
But I do understand where you are coming from.

Your Brother
John


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## The Kai (May 15, 2005)

IMHO the internal value is the external value.  There is a problem when the belt that has no external value is held up because the rank, with out the skill.


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## evenflow1121 (May 15, 2005)

I dont know where this place is, but let me tell you something, when I first got into the martial arts, I started out in a WTF TKD and all test were general, everyone tested every 3 months. You paid $50 per belt test every 3 months, you tested and you passed pretty much a guarantee, say BB which was $250. Of course no one ever learned a damn thing in that particular school with respect to self defense. The sad part or the worse part was that the douche that taught me was a 9th degree grandmaster and he was legitimate, so he knew his stuff, but he rather market the art, keep everyone happy and allow people to make bb in 2.5 yrs than teach the style properly.

The worse part of this personal experience was going into middle school with a cracker jack bb and getting my *** kicked by someone that knew no martial arts whatsoever.  It was amazing, stupidest thing I could do, i did, but it was what I was taught.  I threw a spin kick to the guy's face, and he just stepped out, I was 12 at the time, lol knowing what I know now I would never in a million life times do that, but again it was what my former teacher had taught me, but what if I would have been 21, and what if the situation would have been more serious.


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## The Kai (May 16, 2005)

So the internal value (whatever work you, money you invested) did not carry over to the external value?


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## evenflow1121 (May 16, 2005)

I dont know if you were referring to me but if you were, to answer your question, no absolutely none.  Hence the reason I dont post my 1st degree bb in tkd in the bb req list, I dont consider I ever attained a true bb in tkd, not with that particular clown I started with.


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## Seabrook (May 16, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> My niece just tested for her BB in TKD today. (YAAYY Reb!).
> 
> But, man, have things changed. It was a school test, all the way from newbies, to BB's going for their next grade. The basics were horrible, and the board breaking was set up such that uncoordinated 8 year olds were blasting through them like styrofoam.
> 
> ...


While I need to be careful not to over-generalize, Tae Kwon Do is one of the easiest arts to get a black belt in. 

Thanks for being honest and sharing that with us. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## DuneViking (May 16, 2005)

Yea, congrats!!


Like others have said, shop around. My TKD instructor was part of the Korean Tae Kwon Do Assoc of America-WTF style, and went out on his own in 1980. His reason for entering MA was Self Defense. His teaching emphasis has always been self-defense. While the core of training includes the WTF basics and forms, he had also included _any_ technique that worked on him, from Aikido to Wrestling. 

I had a similar school age experience to the spin-kick episode above, but it was multiple attackers and turned out differently due the the training emphasis on self-defense, and the fact that we were all kids. I did not get hurt, nor seriously hurt anyone. I did as I was trained to, put the pack on one side, take out the biggest/first one fast and hard and toss'em into the crowd. I did not use a TKD punch or kick, mostly aikido/judo type throws and re-direction. And I kept my head. All due to Self-defense training. 

So, shop around, school names can be decieving. Find a school that has what you want your child to learn and let them see it. Keep doing so until you find one they want to join. Best of luck.


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## Gentle Fist (May 17, 2005)

A "Black Belt" in America has lost a lot of it's meaning.  Props to all the schools that still make it a b*tch to earn!  There are to many nidans and sandans that can't even legally drive a car yet.  You might as well dump the kyu ranks and start at black.


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## evenflow1121 (May 17, 2005)

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> A "Black Belt" in America has lost a lot of it's meaning. Props to all the schools that still make it a b*tch to earn! There are to many nidans and sandans that can't even legally drive a car yet. You might as well dump the kyu ranks and start at black.


It has become quite an enterprise hasnt it. The worse in my opinion however, are the schools that allow the 'kiddies' who attain bb to boss other students around, including the elder folk that may attend the same school, its unbelievable.


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## Seabrook (May 17, 2005)

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> A "Black Belt" in America has lost a lot of it's meaning. Props to all the schools that still make it a b*tch to earn! There are to many nidans and sandans that can't even legally drive a car yet. You might as well dump the kyu ranks and start at black.


Very true fistlaw!


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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