# THATS how we're supposed to round house kick?



## Wey (Mar 17, 2011)

I've been taking Karate for around 3 years now, but had to leave my first school in order to go to college. I started taking a Shotokan Karate class at my college, and everything has been fine until my sensei starting teaching us the round house kick.

How she wants us to kick is:

Bend the kicking leg's knee, raise the leg upwards so it forms a 90* angle with the ground, then use your leg muscles to pull your leg around, extend the foot, and hit with the ball of the foot. No pivoting is involved, she says if you just turn your body and use the extension from your knee (snapping the leg out) there is no power, but instead to use the power of your legs. 

My problems with this are:
If you do not pivot, you run the risk of hurting your knee.
Pivoting gives more power
Pivoting gives a wider range of attack

Is this really how some styles teach their students to do a round house kick? Any input would be appreciated.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2011)

You mean pivot on the supporting foot?  That is an integral part of correct kicking, Shotokan or not.  Either you misunderstood your teacher or she's gravely wrong.

This is mawashi geri as taught by Kagawa Sensei of the JKS.  He clearly pivots on the supporting foot.

[yt]76MgBFVGjiE[/yt]


----------



## girlbug2 (Mar 18, 2011)

I have learned roundhouse kicks the Hwa Rang Do way, the EPAK way, the Krav Maga Way, and the Muay Thai way. They are all the same in that they rely on a pivot of the supporting leg and hips--no teacher has ever told me to do it without pivoting. I agree with your concerns Wey, especially about not pivoting being risky for the knee on the supporting leg. I would fear to practice a round house kick that way.


----------



## Victor Smith (Mar 18, 2011)

Au contraire!

Use of the supporting leg depends on how extreme you've been trained, and your center flexibility. I teach the turn, but Tristan Sutrisno for a front roundhouse kick to the front, and for back sidekicks to the front does not turn his supporting foot.

It requires starting real young, and very exacting training.. He shared it with my students many times, but alas beyond our potentials.

There are a wide varilety of methods to peform movements sharing the same name. It is incorrect to assume the method we use decribes all variation.


----------



## harlan (Mar 18, 2011)

Yes, but in your opinion, teaching a beginner karate class in college where the starting age is probably 18, what would be the safest and pragmatic method to use?


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't teach significant pivoting on the support leg for the round house kick.  The technique is different, and requires some flexibility in the hip -- and you don't swing the leg through in the same manner.

You're learning a different art, with a different emphasis and set of principles.  Be open to learning different ways of doing things you already "know."


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 18, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> Au contraire!
> 
> Use of the supporting leg depends on how extreme you've been trained, and your center flexibility. I teach the turn, but Tristan Sutrisno for a front roundhouse kick to the front, and for back sidekicks to the front does not turn his supporting foot.
> 
> ...




What is the advantage of not pivoting on a front RH or a back leg sidekick to the front?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2011)

I could be way off here, but it sounds as if the issue is in where the toes are pointed. I you are standing penguin toed there is no pivot, however, do that kick pigeon toed and it forces a pivot. We do all our kicks with a pivot, but I suppose it is harder to do well than without a pivot.
Sean


----------



## Wey (Mar 18, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> You mean pivot on the supporting foot?  That  is an integral part of correct kicking, Shotokan or not.  Either you  misunderstood your teacher or she's gravely wrong.
> 
> This is mawashi geri as taught by Kagawa Sensei of the JKS.  He clearly pivots on the supporting foot.
> 
> [yt]76MgBFVGjiE[/yt]


 
She even specifically said, only pivot if you have flexibility issues, not for power. I'm trying to understand why we're kicking like this, but its frustrating. I agree, that video is how you're supposed to kick. Thanks for sharing. 




girlbug2 said:


> I have learned roundhouse kicks the Hwa Rang Do  way, the EPAK way, the Krav Maga Way, and the Muay Thai way. They are  all the same in that they rely on a pivot of the supporting leg and  hips--no teacher has ever told me to do it without pivoting. I agree  with your concerns Wey, especially about not pivoting being risky for  the knee on the supporting leg. I would fear to practice a round house  kick that way.


 
  I very much agree. Thanks for the input.



harlan said:


> Yes, but in your opinion, teaching a beginner  karate class in college where the starting age is probably 18, what  would be the safest and pragmatic method to use?


 
 This is a good point, thank you.



jks9199 said:


> I don't teach significant pivoting on the support  leg for the round house kick.  The technique is different, and requires  some flexibility in the hip -- and you don't swing the leg through in  the same manner.
> 
> You're learning a different art, with a different emphasis and set of  principles.  Be open to learning different ways of doing things you  already "know."



Does the kick that you teach look somewhat like a sideways front kick? And why don't you pivot / use the hips? I'm trying to stay open to this new way of kicking.



Touch Of Death said:


> I could be way off here, but it sounds as if the issue is in where the toes are pointed. I you are standing penguin toed there is no pivot, however, do that kick pigeon toed and it forces a pivot. We do all our kicks with a pivot, but I suppose it is harder to do well than without a pivot.
> Sean



The toes being pointed is an issue as well, but I think, for me, that's just because its different than kicking with the foot / shin. 

Thank you all for the responses.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 18, 2011)

The round kick is chambered at the knee, then rises out and swings around.  I will and I teach planting the support foot at an angle prior to the kick depending on target and flexibility.

I don't like the stresss on my knees when you pivot -- especially if you're in a real world situation you're asking to twist your knee.  I also want to keep as many of my weapons lined up towards my opponent as possible, and pivoting into the kick turns half of them away.  Again -- it's a different set of principles.

(I also don't teach side kicks with the supporting foot turned 180 to the target; that's a back kick.)


----------



## Victor Smith (Mar 18, 2011)

Question - What is the advantage of not pivoting on a front RH or a back leg sidekick to the front?

Well first thing this is how Sutrisno Sensei was taught, it wasn't an option.

IMVHO
1.  it is faster without the ground foot pivoting.  (and in his arts working to blinding speed is critical)
2. It doesn't give away what's coming. The same chamber can be a front kick, a round kick or a side kick.  There are some who are also fast and this gives nothing away.

Now I was taught the roundhouse kick from day one in Isshinryu and Tang Soo Do among others. I tend to start with a front kick that flips into a round kick too.  Again for confusion in sparing.

But Okinawan karate didn't historically have a round kick, the closest may be Isshinryu's squat kick, or a front kick that comes off the floor 25 degrees.  IMO the round kick was borrowed from Korea when arts began being done openly.

Whether to include it depends on one's art, the reasons the kick is being taught, the physical potential of the student.

Frankly the Mawashi-geri (round kick) has many variations if you've trained in various arts. There is not one execution, much less one correct execution.


----------



## seasoned (Mar 18, 2011)

By pivoting it gives commitment, and sets up for the spinning back kick after you set that kicking foot down. Also, when you set the RH kick down, a step behind side thrust kick fits nicely. Although in Okinawa GoJu we use neither.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 18, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> Frankly the Mawashi-geri (round kick) has many variations if you've trained in various arts. There is not one execution, much less one correct execution.



True enough.  That said the pivoting method is prevalent across multiple styles for good reason.  The OP is asking about Shotokan mawashi geri.  What Sutrisno Sensei teaches notwithstanding, orthodox JKS (and JKA for that matter) technique does call for the pivot.


----------



## Victor Smith (Mar 18, 2011)

I understand what you're saying his Shotokan isn't JKA, it follows his fathers studies in Japan in the 1930's under Funakoshi Sensei. JKA became something else.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2011)

My Father teaches ball room dance and they specifically have you step with your toes, pointed out, so that your energy will disipate along the circle. This is important or people would be slamming in to their partners. Just know that kick without the pivot is losing power on that circle; so, basicly it has to be a stronger kick to get the same results as a pivot.
Sean


----------



## Victor Smith (Mar 19, 2011)

Well it's not just power is it. If the kick is accurate far less power is needed, and speed is IMO more important. Consider the target the side of the head, the neck, into the armpit, the lower ribs or the thigh.  Bag crunching power is far less relevant.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 19, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> Well it's not just power is it. If the kick is accurate far less power is needed, and speed is IMO more important. Consider the target the side of the head, the neck, into the armpit, the lower ribs or the thigh.  Bag crunching power is far less relevant.


I don't throw the round kick that high, either.  Stomach or ribs would be about the highest.  More likely is the thigh, knee, or even calf.


----------



## Blade96 (Mar 19, 2011)

i was taught pivoting when doing a mawashi geri.


----------



## Never_A_Reflection (Mar 21, 2011)

I was taught to turn the foot before you kick, but the time gap between those two actions is very small.  The reason I was taught this was was because pivoting on the ball of the foot (which is how people tend to pivot) does not direct all of your force into your kick but upward and to the side AWAY from the direction of your kick.  Pivoting on the heel (as I was taught to punch) is difficult to do when you kick, so turning the foot slightly before-hand eliminates that issue.  The idea of not moving the foot at all would make me terrified for my knee's safety.


----------



## Sojobo (Mar 23, 2011)

Wey said:


> I've been taking Karate for around 3 years now, but had to leave my first school in order to go to college. I started taking a Shotokan Karate class at my college, and everything has been fine until my sensei starting teaching us the round house kick.
> 
> How she wants us to kick is:
> 
> ...


 
Hello,

I would say your instructors comments hold water if she was explaining Mikazuki-geri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joKq9O-Q0k0&feature=related

Out side of that, I would recommend asking her to provide you with some more info.

That's what you pay her for.

Sojobo


----------



## Wey (Mar 24, 2011)

Sojobo said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would say your instructors comments hold water if she was explaining Mikazuki-geri
> 
> ...



Ush,

Thank you for that. Maybe I'll ask her about this kick - mikasuki geri - compared to what she is teaching us.


----------



## Martin h (May 17, 2011)

Not shotokan, but perhaps enlightening:    [yt]ZWu3dsmDurU[/yt]


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 17, 2011)

Wey said:


> I've been taking Karate for around 3 years now, but had to leave my first school in order to go to college. I started taking a Shotokan Karate class at my college, and everything has been fine until my sensei starting teaching us the round house kick.
> 
> How she wants us to kick is:
> 
> ...


Hey, I think pointing the knee and then engaging the muscles is crap too; so, you will get no argument from me.
Sean


----------



## Zero (May 26, 2011)

Away from karate, when I trained with muay thai guys, I have seen some of their crescent kicks and round houses executed without any pivot on the back foot. But then the leg is often thrown straight up to head height or into the ribs, the knee is not chambered at all, and the connection is with the lower shin not the knuckles of the foot or the ball of the foot. 

However, when doing the standard mawashi geri as trained in our goju ryu club, this is always with a pivot on the ball of the foot, we also pivot when doing the kick off the front foot also. But then this is a different motion from what I was seeing the muay thai guys doing, as the knee is chambered very high in mawashi geri and then from the knee the foreleg is extended in a snap/whip-like motion (just as you seem to be familiar with). Now that I train juniors, I always ask them to pivot so that the back foot is facing away as this, in my opinion and experience, avoids (i) any knee strain and (ii) helps in opening the pelvis properly and avoids any strains in the pelvis and groin area when executing head high kicks of this type. Hip and pelvis rotation and alignment are just as important as considerations regarding the knee IMO.

Again I am passing on what was passed on to me by very competent kickers. But there are always more than two ways to skin a dead fish!!

On experimenting last night, I do not like the feel of doing the mawashi geri while not pivoting - personally I thought (and this is of course not being used to this way!) like there was less balance and stability and also that there was the possibility for undue tension and strain in the groin and perhaps base leg knee area.

When I did TKD through highschool, the round house was also done with a pivot; again pivoting on the ball of the foot. IMO the pivot should be done on the ball of the foot as this is quicker and also far more balanced than on the heel, which I have heard some people do, you can also extend off the toes when executiing an extremely high kick and this will always give you a few more inches than being limited to a pivot off the heel; which I would never do (but then this is only going from my own experience!! which I am the first to point out does not add up to much).

When you watch a lot of Bruce Lee footage, both the movies and the home-made footage of his training, he seems to very often have placed the back/supporting foot so that it is facing away so his hips are open just before even lifting his attacking leg in executing the round house or front high snap kick. I generally execute the pivot when the leg/knee is being raised but also sometimes try Bruce's approach when working the bag. My head sensei in my previous club who was/is an amazing kicker always asked that I do it this way, like Bruce Lee, as he felt being in that primed position was a slightly quicker/better execution. You can easily transition in and out of this to a standard boxing/fighting stance so this does not mean you are worried about being devoted to the kick or being caught off balance. Done a split second before lifting/chambering the knee does not seem to have any "telegraphing" issues either for the front kick; for the back leg round house kick, well this is telegraphed and a slower kick than off the front foot in any event so it is all about generating more power and correct timing and working it into combinations to land it.

Please let us know of the reasoning and justification behind the execution of this kick in your current club when your instructor explains this to you; if they are worth their salt, they should have no issue listening to your questons and even concerns and explaining the application and benefits.


----------



## OldKarateGuy (May 29, 2011)

I'm late to a thread again, but my two cents...

Quoting from Nakayama's book, Dynamic Karate, as the hips turn with the roundhouse, the supporting foot will pivot. Kept the foot solidly in contact with the ground and _make the pivot as small as possible_. That's his language, not mine. 

Another video from Kagawa Sensei, demonstrating a mawashi geri drill. Watch the supporting foot. You'll see no pivot, small pivot and larger pivot. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y08a0PAW5Rw&feature=related

For that matter, in the video posted earlier, watch to the end and note the supporting foot does not pivot at all in some of the kicks. 

If you google some of the shotokan sparring (for instance, all-Japan matches), you will see some of the contestants do very rapid, relatively small roundhouse kicks with little pivot of the supporting foot, less than 45 degrees in some cases, so the body does not turn. For instance, Yahara's kick at 33 seconds here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufh6B-r_HOM&feature=related

Others, of course, do the classic and have a 90 degree pivot or more. 

A roundhouse kick with little or no pivot of the supporting foot is a correct technique for some situations and some teachers. Kicking a bag with a large pivot may teach power and technique, but in a real situation, one may decide not to pivot and turn your body in the face of real resistance. 

Although not part of the official JKA syllabus, there is something often called a "tournament kick", which looks just like a front snap kick until the hip turns and the foot curves out and describes an arc, striking like a roundhouse. There is no pivot of the supporting foot. 

When I spar and the opponent is skilled, sometimes my roundhouse kicks tend to look just like what your instructor is showing you. Maybe when you demonstrate some skill in doing the kick this way, she will move you on to a more advanced kick including a pivot.  

I guess what I am saying is that there is room for the kick as described in karate. It does not mean your instructor is deficient or incapable.


----------



## Grenadier (May 31, 2011)

Not pivoting the foot isn't too uncommon.  

I just came back from a clinic with Yokoda Shihan (from the Asai lineage), and we worked on a lot of round kicks and side kicks, using the hip to pivot, and not the foot.  

I won't kid you; it feels very awkward, but the purpose of this drill was to show you how you could much more easily snap back the kicking leg with this method.  If you use the proper tension in the side, as well as pivoting the hip, there shouldn't be any more strain on the knee than a conventional foot-pivoting round kick.  

Such a method isn't for everyone, though.


----------



## OzPaul (Jun 1, 2011)

I have always been taught to pivot on your supporting foot when doing a round house kick.  Two methods i use are pivoting whilst i am kicking and also stepping to the right or left planting my foot on an angle before i kick, each have pro's and con's.  The reasoning behind this is that when i am doing my round house kick i want to go straight through the target not just tap them and return to my point of origin.  If i do not cross my own centreline with my kick the power finishes at my own centreline so i need to pivot to make my centreline face the target or go slightly passed them to achieve greater power.  This video by Bas Rutten explains his ideas on kicking.  Regards.


----------



## RobinTKD (Jun 3, 2011)

I personally always pivot my supporting foot as it helps me gather more speed/momentum/power, but having looked at some footage of Sensei Enoeda, he is teaching it with a pivot in the hips and not the knee, as can be seen here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruXWCdmTyoE&feature=related

Also worth noting in this video is a young(ish) Terry O'Neil training with him!


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jun 5, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> I don't teach significant pivoting on the support leg for the round house kick.  The technique is different, and requires some flexibility in the hip -- and you don't swing the leg through in the same manner.
> 
> You're learning a different art, with a different emphasis and set of principles.  Be open to learning different ways of doing things you already "know."



I had that demostrated to me by one of my teachers in Korea 20 some years ago.  He had flexibility that was unbelievable.  I was never able to do it.  He explained that cocking the knee during the move then allowed one to from that point, execute a variety of kicks without having telegraphed which kick would follow.  Made sense but I just didn't have the flexibility to carry it off.  

I later explained it and attempted to show it to a student who was able to practice it and do it.  I was a wonder to watch.  But I think both had to pivot at the last split second to complete the kick.


----------



## Thesemindz (Jun 6, 2011)

I've seen the non-pivot version of the roundhouse kick. In fact, many students do that naturally when they first learn the kick and have to be taught and actively practice the pivot in order to begin doing it naturally.

For me, the most important aspect is the safety of my own supporting knee joint. I've had significant injuries to both knees and have to be careful how I train. I pivot to protect my body, because not pivoting puts a huge amount of rotational stress on the joints of the supporting leg, followed by a sudden jerking stop and an immediate rotational stress in the opposite direction. I'm not saying it can't be done, and it may even be more deceptive and faster, hence more effective for some. But for me it's just too risky.

We practice the roundhouse kick kenpo style with a high chambered knee, pivoting of the supporting leg while rolling the hip and leg over to horizontal, and then sharply unfolding the leg towards the target with the foot pulled back and the toes pointed in towards the practitioner, striking with the ball of the foot. We also practice the kick Muay Thai style, with a pivot of the supporting leg and the kicking leg held out at close to full extension with the knee leading as the leg comes up at a rising angle towards the opponent like a lever and the foot and toes extended away from the body, striking with the shin. With both techniques, we practice pivoting with the kick and pre-pivoting before the kick. The first is more powerful, the second is quicker and easier because you are already positioned to launch the kick. When pre-pivoting we practice using hand techniques to hide the foot movement from the opponent and direct their attention to the high zone and away from the kicking technique. But we always pivot.

As far as targets go, we almost never practice this kick above the mid zone. Kidneys, ribs, and bladder. Lower than that we strike groin, the spot on the thigh where the femoral nerve meets the vastus lateralis, the inside of the knee, the shins, and the ankle. If I do want to go higher than that, I practice it as a drop knee kick where I point the knee down to angle the leg up rather than articulate the leg outward against the edge of the joint socket. In the interests of both self defense training and safe long term training we rarely practice kicks or stretches that would extend the leg out horizontally beyond our own waist level, and I almost never use them in my own style. But that's me.

Like everything else in martial arts, there are as many roundhouse kicks as karate practitioners. I would say protect your body first, but secondly learn from the methods of others. That way even if you don't eventually adopt them yourself training in them won't be a waste.


-Rob


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (Jul 24, 2011)

The technique of the round house kick is taught the wrong way. If proper technique is not taught properly, not only would the technique be ineffective, but it may injure an individual doing it that way in the long run. It is very important to pivot on the base foot because it generate hip power into the kick and if you are kick with the ball of your foot, the best target is torwards the ribs and kidneys which is very effective in a real fight situation. :ultracool


----------

