# a couple of thoughts about self-defense



## jarrod (Dec 10, 2008)

i saw a thread about the merits of one style versus another for self-defense (on the internet!!! who would think it??) & thought i'd type a few thoughts.  i think deep down, every martial artist wants to be the guy (or girl!) in the movie who beats up a dozen bad guys after doing everything possible to avoid conflict, & saves the day/gets the girl/ avenges his or her father/whatever.  

this fantasy inadvertantly leads us to debates about how we picture the scenario in our head playing out.  grappling won't work because the bad guy's friends will stomp on you.  striking won't work because most fights go to the ground.  this won't work because it uses prearranged attacks.  that worn't work because it is a sport.  blah blah blah.  really we're just debating whether we prefer the movie that plays in our head, or the other person's.  

but the keys to self-defense are really fairly simple.  be aware of your surroundings.  if possible, avoid places where you don't feel safe.  when you interact with people, be polite & respectful but not submissive.  & above all, don't look like a target.  

the last part is primarily a side-effect of having confidence.  not machismo or bravado, but just a general feeling of being in decent shape & accustomed to a scrap.  the knowledge that you have faced & overcome obstacles.  

so really, what's the best martial art for self-defense?  the one that makes you confident!  it doesn't matter if you gain that confidence from your engagements in a sport matches, your precision & control responding to prearranged attacks, or whatever.  

i mean a little healthy debate is all well & good.  it's helps us to analyze our techniques & think on our tactics.  but how many of us who practice for self-defense live somewhere crawling with knife & stick weilding muggers?  if you do live someplace like that, wouldn't it be better to carry a gun?  

so imho, that's the best defense.  avoid dangerous places, & do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself.  everything else will fall into place.

peace,

jf


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## KenpoTex (Dec 10, 2008)

jarrod said:


> so really, *what's the best martial art for self-defense? the one that makes you confident! it doesn't matter if you gain that confidence from your engagements in a sport matches, your precision & control responding to prearranged attacks, or whatever.
> *
> 
> so imho, that's the best defense. avoid dangerous places, & *do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself.* everything else will fall into place.
> ...


 
What if that "good feeling" is nothing but false confidence?  There are a lot of martial artists who probably feel great about themselves and have a high level of confidence in their "abilities" but wouldn't last two seconds against a committed attacker.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 11, 2008)

so very very wise


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## dewey (Dec 11, 2008)

jarrod said:


> ....
> 
> but the keys to self-defense are really fairly simple. be aware of your surroundings. if possible, avoid places where you don't feel safe. when you interact with people, be polite & respectful but not submissive. & above all, don't look like a target.


 
Exactly. 90% of good, effective self-defense is situational awareness...zanshin. Unless one is intentionally placing themselves in danger's way for whatever reason, simply being aware of your surroundings at all times and continually honing your "street smarts" keeps you safe...that and the requisite amount of common sense! 



KenpoTex said:


> What if that "good feeling" is nothing but false confidence? There are a lot of martial artists who probably feel great about themselves and have a high level of confidence in their "abilities" but wouldn't last two seconds against a committed attacker.


 
That's the other 10% of good, effective self-defense...being able to physically defend yourself when it becomes necessary.

My own understanding of self-defense comes from (surpise), my own martial arts training...particularly Iaido. Like handguns, the sword as a self-defense weapon remains sheathed 99% of the time. However, in that 1% "moment"...I better know how to use it! Thus, the several hours a week I train...all to prepare myself for the instant that I "might" have to physically defend myself one day. This also directly applies to handguns. 

As applied to unarmed self-defense, the same philosophy goes. Because of situational awareness, I've been able to keep myself safe thus far and have not had to physically defend myself. HOWEVER, that one time that I very well might have to...I want to be ready!

FWIW


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## allenjp (Dec 11, 2008)

dewey said:


> Exactly. 90% of good, effective self-defense is situational awareness...zanshin. Unless one is intentionally placing themselves in danger's way for whatever reason, simply being aware of your surroundings at all times and continually honing your "street smarts" keeps you safe...that and the requisite amount of common sense!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Do you actually carry a sword for self defense


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## dewey (Dec 11, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Do you actually carry a sword for self defense


 
Of course not! I was just making an analogy. Although....

My other training is Aikido and Judo.


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 11, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> What if that "good feeling" is nothing but false confidence? There are a lot of martial artists who probably feel great about themselves and have a high level of confidence in their "abilities" but wouldn't last two seconds against a committed attacker.


 
I remember Jeff Cooper writing about the goal of his classes was to make the student so good that any attacker would have committed inadverdent suicide if they attacked.

Of course he was teaching the .45 automatic and the Modern Technique...

He also wrote about the confidence one gets from being in control of their environment. He said it was a confidence that cannot be faked.

Yes I do feel false confidence is bad. But understanding his 'Principles of Personal Defense' is a step in the right direction. Awareness of ones surroundings was a part of that.

Deaf


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## hkfuie (Dec 11, 2008)

jarrod said:


> so imho, that's the best defense.  avoid dangerous places, & do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself.  everything else will fall into place.
> 
> peace,
> 
> jf



Good.

Now what're we supposed to talk about?


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## Guardian (Dec 11, 2008)

so imho, that's the best defense. avoid dangerous places, & do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself. everything else will fall into place.

What is a dangerous place now a days?  I understand what you are referring to, but there is very few safe places anymore in my view.  Ok, there are some places more dangerous then others, but that line is becoming thinner by the week.

On the other account, feeling good about yourself is ok, but as someone pointed out, you better have the physical conditioning to back up that feeling good, I can feel good about myself, but be out of shape, smoke 10 packs a cigarrettes a day and drink 2 cases a beer a day and still feel good about myself, but I doubt I would last 20 seconds in a confrontation in that condition.

I did like your post though, some good thoughts in there.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 11, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Yes I do feel false confidence is bad. *But understanding his 'Principles of Personal Defense' is a step in the right direction. Awareness of ones surroundings was a part of that.*
> 
> Deaf


 
I never said or implied that those thing aren't important... (and I know who the Col. is )

My disagreement with the OP is due to statements like this:


> do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself. everything else will fall into place.


 
IMO, that's a load of BS...
Someone that studies a system where they never make contact and never train agains a realistic level of resistance may feel perfectly confident. However, this "confidence" will only last until they actually get attacked by someone who means to do them harm. At that point, things are not going to just magically "fall into place." 
I have seen students that thought they were tough **** because they could do all the fancy techniques against a cooperative partner. However, they had never been in a real fight so they didn't really have any way to gauge their performance. Furthermore, in most cases, they didn't like sparring or any type of contact drills because "it was too hard," or "too much work." Notwithstanding, they were perfectly "confident" in their "abilities."
Now does anyone think that the aforementioned type of student (outside of being extremely lucky) is going to survive against a determined, committed attacker who probably has the benefit of real experience and probably the element of surprise on their side...yeah right.

"In the fight, you will not rise to the occasion. You will not default to your training. You will default to the level of training you have MASTERED." 

If all you have mastered is putting on your gi and playing patty-cake twice a week--never breaking a sweat, getting a bruise or a bloody nose, never being pushed to failure--your confidence is worthless.


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## grydth (Dec 11, 2008)

Collectively, there's some good sense here...... have the sense to avoid dangerous situations, be confident in your ability and have some street effective techniques you've trained in..... its about the best you can do.

I had a teacher who stressed the best defense was avoidance..... when one student asked what he'd do in a particular situation, he replied," Die. Your chance of survival was in reacting earlier."


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## jarrod (Dec 11, 2008)

thanks all for the feedback, there are some interesting thoughts from all.



KenpoTex said:


> What if that "good feeling" is nothing but false confidence? There are a lot of martial artists who probably feel great about themselves and have a high level of confidence in their "abilities" but wouldn't last two seconds against a committed attacker.


 
there is a difference between confidence & false confidence.  false confidence hides behind bravado & macho BS energy.  real confidence is much quieter.  

false confidence is wrapped up in the ego.  real confidence is connected to real self-esteem.  the self-esteem movement that as swept our educational system is about ego inflation, not real self-esteem.  how often do you hear about a football player getting mugged?  he may or may not know how to fight, but athletes in general are in good shape & have lots of real confidence.  so long as they are not fall-down drunk or stupid they rarely run into trouble.    

i do remember a pro-baller who was recently shot during a home robbery.  if i remember right, he knew the perps.  maybe it could have been avoided by being more selective about who he hung around with, or taking more measures for home security.  at any rate, they had guns.  i don't think any amount of MA training would have helped.



hkfuie said:


> Good.
> 
> Now what're we supposed to talk about?


 
now we go back to talking about our head-movies.  i get to throw bad guys through plate glass windows while you kick them all in the head, preferably with something spinning or arial!



Guardian said:


> so imho, that's the best defense. avoid dangerous places, & do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself. everything else will fall into place.
> 
> What is a dangerous place now a days? I understand what you are referring to, but there is very few safe places anymore in my view. Ok, there are some places more dangerous then others, but that line is becoming thinner by the week.


 
no place is absolutely safe, of course.  i live in a fairly high crime area.  but for the most part, that crime is petty theft & alcohol related violence (domestic disputes, bar fights, etc.)  so as long as i don't go out drinking & lock my doors, i feel pretty safe.  



now as for falling apart in front of a commited attacker...what exactly is a commited attacker?  someone who wants your money? someone who wants you dead?  if that's the case, they're not interested in fighting & testing out your martial arts skills.  it's a bullet in the head, a baseball bat from behind, or worse.  i'm not saying training won't help at all in these situations.  but i think people far over-estimate it's value.  

let's say two bad guys with knives & bats want your money.  give it to them!

let's say your sister's abusive ex wants you dead.  is gonna fight you or shoot you in the back if he gets the chance?  don't give him the chance.  keep a gun at home or with you if it's legal.  be aware of your whereabouts & his.  

let's say some sort of professional criminal is out to make some money.  is he going to target the person who looks fit, walks with their head up, & pays atttention to what's going on?  he doesn't get points for someone being a hard target.  he's going to look for the person with their head down, talking on the cell, scanning the newspaper, etc.  


jf


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## KenpoTex (Dec 12, 2008)

jarrod said:


> there is a difference between confidence & false confidence. false confidence hides behind bravado & macho BS energy. real confidence is much quieter.
> 
> false confidence is wrapped up in the ego. real confidence is connected to real self-esteem. ...


I think you're overanalyzing a little...to me "false confidence" is when someone thinks they know what they're doing and believing in what they're doing when they really have no clue. (possibly because the instructor has no clue what he/she should really be teaching when it comes to dealing with a violent attack). 



jarrod said:


> now as for falling apart in front of a commited attacker...what exactly is a commited attacker? someone who wants your money? someone who wants you dead? if that's the case, *they're not interested in fighting & testing out your martial arts skills.* it's a bullet in the head, a baseball bat from behind, or worse. i'm not saying training won't help at all in these situations. but i think people far over-estimate it's value.


 exactly...it's not a "challenge" or a bar-fight...it's an ambush. They will seek to ensure that they have every possible advantage and that you are not adequately preparred. 
This is why criminals use ruses to close the distance and get us to lower our guard momentarily so they can strike. This is why they wait between parked cars in a dark parking lot, or get into your car and hide in the back seat...



jarrod said:


> let's say some sort of professional criminal is out to make some money. is he going to target the person who looks fit, walks with their head up, & pays atttention to what's going on? he doesn't get points for someone being a hard target. he's going to look for the person with their head down, talking on the cell, scanning the newspaper, etc.


Very true, but we all lapse into condition white from time to time...


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2008)

hkfuie said:


> Good.
> 
> Now what're we supposed to talk about?


 

:ultracool Nice one!


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## dewey (Dec 12, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> I think you're overanalyzing a little...to me "false confidence" is when someone thinks they know what they're doing and believing in what they're doing when they really have no clue. (possibly because the instructor has no clue what he/she should really be teaching when it comes to dealing with a violent attack).


 
I would certainly agree with this. I think the real issue is the fact that a lot of folks confuse martial arts training with self-defense training. They intersect quite a bit of places, but are not the same thing. That's where the false confidence comes from.

On top of this, a disproportionate (and growing) amount of commercial martial arts instructors are often "one art" types that never seriously crosstrain in another unrelated style/system in order to test the effectiveness of their chosen art/style/system as well as to improve themselves as a martial artist. It's the main reason why I left one dojo and joined another. My current Aikido instructor is a police officer & former SWAT of 15 years as well as tactical handgun instructor...so he knows his s**t and has been tested. Thus, I have complete confidence in his instruction. 

In regards to unarmed self-defense, I'm largely an Aikido guy (per the instructor mentioned above), but have dabbled with Judo a little and am interested in giving MMA a try. Not because I think I'm a badass...but precisely because I want to test my skills, grow technique and improve in those areas that need it.


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## jarrod (Dec 12, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> I think you're overanalyzing a little...to me "false confidence" is when someone thinks they know what they're doing and believing in what they're doing when they really have no clue. (possibly because the instructor has no clue what he/she should really be teaching when it comes to dealing with a violent attack).
> 
> *you may be right, i've been accused of overanalyzing before...but my larger point is that i'm not advocating teaching junk martial arts with the purpose of instilling false confidence.  but people should be realistic about how they approach training.  for instance, one of my judo/jujitsu partners is a rather small guy, & a watch maker.  if he busts up his hands or wrists he's out of work.  if he doesn't have a deep abiding love of striking arts, should he train them & risk his livelihood because striking arts may help him in a self-defense scenario?  i don't think so.    *
> 
> ...


 
dewey makes a great point about self-defense not necessarily being the same as martial arts, although they do coincide.  if true self-defense is your goal, your training should focus on firearms & knife training, defensive driving (you're far more likely to get in a wreck than be attacked), first aid, economic stabilty, etc.  17,000 people were murdered in the US in 2007, compared with 37,000 fatal car accidents.  being weak in any of these areas is far more likely to cause you harm than not having enough unarmed martial arts training.  

jf


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## KenpoTex (Dec 13, 2008)

jarrod said:


> dewey makes a great point about self-defense not necessarily being the same as martial arts, although they do coincide. if true self-defense is your goal, your training should focus on firearms & knife training, defensive driving (you're far more likely to get in a wreck than be attacked), first aid, economic stabilty, etc. 17,000 people were murdered in the US in 2007, compared with 37,000 fatal car accidents. being weak in any of these areas is far more likely to cause you harm than not having enough unarmed martial arts training.
> 
> jf


 
yep...which is why I've told my students (and posted here) that if you're really serious about self defense and you're not training with and carrying weapons (when possible), you're not really serious.  
The first-aid and driving are also excellent areas in which to seek professional training (and the driving is fun...J-turns rock )


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## jarrod (Dec 13, 2008)

glad we could see eye to eye 

jf


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## BillW (Dec 13, 2008)

There have been many interesting thoughts in this thread. I think that we should all realize that what arts we study for fighting or self-defense there will always be one confounding variable in our training -- we know what is and what is going to happen to us. In reality when you are going to get attacked you will not know it is coming. This distinguishes fighting from self-defense since you know you are about to get into a fight-- it is for the most part a reciprocal exchange. However, if you are in a self-defense situation most likely you had no idea it was coming.. Now it is easy to say to avoid situations and have an eye in the back of your head -- but in reality none of us are walking around like Rambo. Most likely you will get attacked in a scenario where you are leaving work and are getting on a subway car looking at a blackberry email message from you boss and bang it happens.. before you know it you were hit, stabbed, multiple attackers, etc. You can replace the elements of this scenario with whatever reflects where you live. No amount of standard dojo training can prepare you for the ultimate realistic element of surprise.. The no-mind drills attempt to come close, but you still know you will get attacked and you know your attacker is not out to kill you. In reality you will not know it is coming, not know your attacker(s) and your attacker will be out to kill you, and very often the attacker will have nothing to loose. In these types of real world situations the attacker has all of the advantages.. In this type of situation your hormone levels, brain EEG activity, neurotransmitter levels, etc. will be completely different than during training. 

No matter what martial arts training you have -- how do you really prepare for this type of attack?? How do you remove this ever present confounding variable in our training?? How can we train to introduce the surprise, realism, danger and physiological states of real world scenarios and still have schools that average people want to enroll in?? I don't have the answers -- just the questions.

Thanks.


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## Guardian (Dec 13, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Guardian* 

 
_so imho, that's the best defense. avoid dangerous places, & do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself. everything else will fall into place.

What is a dangerous place now a days? I understand what you are referring to, but there is very few safe places anymore in my view. Ok, there are some places more dangerous then others, but that line is becoming thinner by the week.
_

no place is absolutely safe, of course. i live in a fairly high crime area. but for the most part, that crime is petty theft & alcohol related violence (domestic disputes, bar fights, etc.) so as long as i don't go out drinking & lock my doors, *i feel pretty safe. 
*
My point exactly here though, pretty safe is not exclusively safe, that's all I meant by that my friend.  No place is safe anymore, not even home.


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 13, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> yep...which is why I've told my students (and posted here) that if you're really serious about self defense and you're not training with and carrying weapons (when possible), you're not really serious.


 
This is truth. I've heard some students in other arts that size and strenth don't matter (hahaha yea sure...) I've seen paraphanelia from an art say you don't need guns and knives, their art will do all (and you can guess what I said wihen I read that.)

I'm a deep beliver in using the most effective weapon you can legaly aquire. And face it, the firearm is way ahead of anything else. And of pure defensive use, on a daily basis, the handgun, because of it's protability and concealabilty, is it. Not nachuka sticks, not tafongs, not throwing stars, not sticks, staffs, etc... but a good handgun. That and backed by a hand skilled in it's use.



> do whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself. everything else will fall into place.


 
Ken, I ddn't mean to imply anything with Cooper's comments. I can see what you were referring to.

I detest 'feeling good' about yourself. *Self respect* yes, but 'feeling good' mearly means you pat your self on the back, cause you are 'cool'. Guess what happens when someone decides to make you not 'feel good" about yourself and is very uncool!

Hard good training brings self-confidence and control of your emotions. It also breeds judgment. Good judgement.

Deaf


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## KenpoTex (Dec 13, 2008)

BillW said:


> How can we train to introduce the surprise, realism, danger and physiological states of real world scenarios and still have schools that average people want to enroll in?? I don't have the answers -- just the questions.
> 
> Thanks.


 
Really, you can't...most people will never get it.



			
				Deaf Smith said:
			
		

> Ken, I ddn't mean to imply anything with Cooper's comments. I can see what you were referring to.
> 
> I detest 'feeling good' about yourself. *Self respect* yes, but 'feeling good' mearly means you pat your self on the back, cause you are 'cool'. Guess what happens when someone decides to make you not 'feel good" about yourself and is very uncool!
> 
> ...


um...I wasn't the one that made the comment about "doing whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself."  That was the OP.

I'm confused...


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## chokimotobu (Dec 14, 2008)

Not to sound simplistic, but you would think "self defense" would boil down to exercising common sense about your surroundings and having a way to win a fight if you get into one.  Just to be clear, I consider self defense to be a fight.  If someone tries to rape a woman and she fights back they are fighting.  If someone pulls a gun on me and I try to take it, it's a fight (unless I get shot).  A way to win a fight might be a weapon, might be martial arts skill, might be building muscle mass, might be a gaurd dog.  It might even be a YMCA self defense three week course (good luck).


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## Guardian (Dec 14, 2008)

chokimotobu said:


> Not to sound simplistic, but you would think "self defense" would boil down to exercising common sense about your surroundings and having a way to win a fight if you get into one. Just to be clear, I consider self defense to be a fight. If someone tries to rape a woman and she fights back they are fighting. If someone pulls a gun on me and I try to take it, it's a fight (unless I get shot). A way to win a fight might be a weapon, might be martial arts skill, might be building muscle mass, might be a gaurd dog. It might even be a YMCA self defense three week course (good luck).


 
In the basic sense of the two words.  You hit it pretty much head on.  Alot of folks relate self-defense to the MAs only, but then of course we are on a MA Site, so they kind of go hand in hand, but Self-Defense can be numerous ways.


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 14, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> Really, you can't...most people will never get it.
> 
> 
> um...I wasn't the one that made the comment about "doing whatever is necessary to feel good about yourself." That was the OP.
> ...


 
I know Ken. I was commenting on his comment you commented on!

Deaf


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## KenpoTex (Dec 14, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> I know Ken. I was commenting on his comment you commented on!
> 
> Deaf


gotcha...yesterday was a long day


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2008)

I have to agree with some great dolks here if you are not training to be with some type of weapon then you are just going though the motion of SD.


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## allenjp (Dec 17, 2008)

dewey said:


> Of course not! I was just making an analogy. Although....
> 
> My other training is Aikido and Judo.


 
Cool, nice style combo, but I was actually kind of hoping you did carry a sword. Then maybe I could do it. I love swords.


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## allenjp (Dec 17, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I have to agree with some great dolks here if you are not training to be with some type of weapon then you are just going though the motion of SD.


 
I understand what you are saying but this is not necessarily true. I never can quite understand why some people think that all SD situations HAVE to involve surprise, multiple attackers, weapons etc...

Of course one really should be ready for the worst case scenario (well, try to be as ready as possible). But sometimes if you are going to stand your ground against some jawjacking idiot, he may try to hurt you even if you don't throw the first punch. Then you have to DEFEND yourSELF, hence the term self defense. The reality is that sometimes SD DOES involve one unarmed attacker, and sometimes even with some knowledge or intimation that you are about to be attacked. Just MHO.


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## jarrod (Dec 19, 2008)

allenjp said:


> But sometimes if you are going to stand your ground against some jawjacking idiot, he may try to hurt you even if you don't throw the first punch. Then you have to DEFEND yourSELF, hence the term self defense. The reality is that sometimes SD DOES involve one unarmed attacker, and sometimes even with some knowledge or intimation that you are about to be attacked. Just MHO.


 

i see what you're saying, but i don't quite agree.  what you're describing above isn't self-defense but a fight (yes self-defense is a fight, but not all fighting is self-defense).  a guy running his mouth is something you can walk away from.  the moment you engage him without the intent of de-escalating the situation it is no longer self-defense.

jf


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## allenjp (Dec 21, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i see what you're saying, but i don't quite agree.  what you're describing above isn't self-defense but a fight (yes self-defense is a fight, but not all fighting is self-defense).  a guy running his mouth is something you can walk away from.  the moment you engage him without the intent of de-escalating the situation it is no longer self-defense.
> 
> jf



I disagree with your disagreement. I have seen people try to walk away from a jawjacker after trying to de-escalate, and get punched in the back of the head for their trouble. There are some situations where trying to de-escalate just doesn't work. In fact, some idiots view that as weakness and just become even more agressive. You can't always just walk away. Now is what I'm describing self defense?


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## jarrod (Dec 21, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I disagree with your disagreement. I have seen people try to walk away from a jawjacker after trying to de-escalate, and get punched in the back of the head for their trouble. There are some situations where trying to de-escalate just doesn't work. In fact, some idiots view that as weakness and just become even more agressive. You can't always just walk away. Now is what I'm describing self defense?


 
i find your disagreement disagreeable.  

really though, i'd say it's a borderline case.  maybe self-defense gone wrong.  turning your back when you walk away is certainly a mistake.  you're right though, de-escalation is not a sure thing; but there is an art to it just like with fighting.  i've run into my share of loudmouths & have always been able to talk my way out of it unless i was too inebriated to do so (an error on my part).  

jf


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I disagree with your disagreement. I have seen people try to walk away from a jawjacker after trying to de-escalate, and get punched in the back of the head for their trouble. There are some situations where trying to de-escalate just doesn't work. In fact, some idiots view that as weakness and just become even more agressive. You can't always just walk away. Now is what I'm describing self defense?


It's very important that, if you have tried to de-escalate, and are walking away, you remain ready and on your guard.  

Tensions are high, and you may be chased or attacked.  You can literally take your first couple of steps walking backwards, making some more calming noises until you've bought yourself a step or three, or just do the "swivel head" thing... but you've got to stay primed for action.


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## allenjp (Dec 22, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> It's very important that, if you have tried to de-escalate, and are walking away, you remain ready and on your guard.
> 
> Tensions are high, and you may be chased or attacked. You can literally take your first couple of steps walking backwards, making some more calming noises until you've bought yourself a step or three, or just do the "swivel head" thing... but you've got to stay primed for action.


 
Why should you have to "stay primed for action"? If you have effectively de-escalated then there should be no danger, right? You make my point exactly. That some guys just aren't willing to be de-escalated (too drunk or ego too big or just plain stupid). Sometimes they are GOING to throw blows at you no matter what, and they are only jawjacking to make you afraid so they can overwhelm you that much easier.

I'll give you an example. My dad was with his girlfriend outside of a piano bar one night when his friend noticed another guy making eyes at my dad's girlfriend (now his wife). He wasn't just looking at her, he was making a big show of it, and being very disrespectful. My dad turned around and said "hey, that's not cool man, come on inside and let me buy you a drink". When my dad turned to go inside the bar one of the google eyed fellow's friends who was already inside heard that there was a commotion and came out and started throwing blows at my dad. I won't go into details of the fight that ensued, but let's just say that the agressor went home quite worse for the wear and my dad ended up going inside to sit down for that drink. Now I realise that this could have very easily turned into a multiple opponent situation, but it didn't because my dad's friend was outside taking care of the google eyed gentleman. I only bring this story up because it was a situation where my dad had every intention of de-escalating the situation, even offering to buy the guy a drink, and still ended up getting attacked. It was obvious that these guys were there just looking for a fight, and that's the way drunk idiots are sometimes. 

In reality sometimes you just have to fight someone, even though they don't catch you by surprise, pull a weapon on you, or jump you with three of their friends. And it is not always possible or practical to avoid it. I am certainly not saying that those things don't happen, just that it doesn't ALWAYS happen that way.


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## allenjp (Dec 22, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i find your disagreement disagreeable.


 
I find your finding of the disagreeableness of my disagreement to your disagreeing with me to be disagreeable in a most disagreeable sense. 

The cool part about this forum though is that we can disagree on disagreeing until the proverbial cows come home and still walk away friends.


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## jks9199 (Dec 22, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> It's very important that, if you have *tried *to de-escalate, and are walking away, you remain ready and on your guard.
> 
> Tensions are high, and you may be chased or attacked.  You can literally take your first couple of steps walking backwards, making some more calming noises until you've bought yourself a step or three, or just do the "swivel head" thing... but you've got to stay primed for action.





allenjp said:


> Why should you have to "stay primed for action"? If you have effectively de-escalated then there should be no danger, right? You make my point exactly. That some guys just aren't willing to be de-escalated (too drunk or ego too big or just plain stupid). Sometimes they are GOING to throw blows at you no matter what, and they are only jawjacking to make you afraid so they can overwhelm you that much easier.
> 
> ...
> 
> In reality sometimes you just have to fight someone, even though they don't catch you by surprise, pull a weapon on you, or jump you with three of their friends. And it is not always possible or practical to avoid it. I am certainly not saying that those things don't happen, just that it doesn't ALWAYS happen that way.



The key word is *tried*.  Unless you are absolutely certain that things have calmed down, don't drop your guard.  You don't have to do some loony "walking fighting stance" away... but you need to keep alert to the possibility that the guy may just decide to take a cheap shot as you walk away, too.

EDIT:

Nevermind... for those wondering, this IS what it looks like to shove a keyboard in your mouth.  It's only slightly more pleasant than a foot...


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## allenjp (Dec 22, 2008)

Fair enough man...I'm sure the keyboard tastes better than the foot, though maybe only slightly?

BTW your signature line contains one of my favorite quotes of all time.


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## jarrod (Dec 22, 2008)

your disagreement is...aw **** it.  we're cool man.

jf


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 22, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I disagree with your disagreement. I have seen people try to walk away from a jawjacker after trying to de-escalate, and get punched in the back of the head for their trouble. There are some situations where trying to de-escalate just doesn't work. In fact, some idiots view that as weakness and just become even more agressive. You can't always just walk away. Now is what I'm describing self defense?


 I couldn't agree more! 

Specifically, negotiating from a position of weakness doesn't work.......de-escalation is one thing......LOOKING like you're simply begging is asking for a beating.

Bottom line is that a bully is looking for an easy mark......and one can mark themselves as such by giving the impression that they will AVOID fighting.....or even fighting BACK......at all costs!

It's best to give a man the impression that you don't really want to beat him in to a coma.......but you will if you have to!


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 22, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> It's very important that, if you have tried to de-escalate, and are walking away, you remain ready and on your guard.
> 
> Tensions are high, and you may be chased or attacked.  You can literally take your first couple of steps walking backwards, making some more calming noises until you've bought yourself a step or three, or just do the "swivel head" thing... but you've got to stay primed for action.



It's a mindset different from the one I have had to develop for the last 12 years.  As a cop, 

1) you aren't required to retreat, 

2) you are required to establish control of any situation, and 

3) three, you are allowed to use whatever force is reasonably necessary to do so.

So the mindset you develop under those circumstances is polite domination and control.  In short you ask nicely....if that doesn't work you tell.....then you MAKE!


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