# Empty Hand Forms



## Rich Parsons (Dec 31, 2003)

How many people teach the Empty Hand Forms?

Do you teach them in a hard style or do you teach them in a flowing style?

Do you teach multiple applications?

Thanks
:asian:


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## modarnis (Dec 31, 2003)

See my post on stick forms, so I'm not a broken record.

Hard or flowing:

Flowing, but not loose.  We have standard stances, strikes, blocks, kicks, targets for basic performance of these forms.

As for applications:

There are so many.  We try to give an example of an application to a move.  Trapping hands in first move of form one.  How many dozen applications could we get from that?  You could classify it by type of attack, type of response, locks, throws whatever.

Forms don't replace the live training of drills or sparring, but they do provide a useful forum for solo practice and exploration.  They also provide easy reference points to begin partner training in a class.

Happy New Year

Brett


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## dearnis.com (Jan 1, 2004)

Ahhh.  The empty hand anyos.  Some love 'em, some hate 'em.  Where to begin.....

I have heard a few times that Professor made these forms up when he came to the states because americans at that time felt like they had to have some type of kata to learn.  I don't know; although the empty hand anyo are absent from the early books while the cane forms are represented.  I also have some demo footage circa 1973 which shows cane forms but not empty hand.  Perhaps one of the old timers (Rocky?) could shed some light.

Are the forms (and from here on I mean the empty-hand forms) essential to the art?  yes and no.  A pratitioner transitioning in from a kata bases system likely has the base attributes trained by anyo; a complete novice may not.  But then a good instructor can incorporate any kata or form to train these attributes; do we need to use the anyos created by Professor?

Most arnis players will agree that the the anyos are heavily influenced by Professor's time in  Shotokan, although I personally would say less so than some others.  The anyos, especially the first five, do draw heavily on the 5 heian/pinan katas common to _most_ shuri-derived (or influenced) karate systems (to include many Korean styles, but that is a whole other bag of worms...)
I believe that there is a lot more within the anyos;there is a strong filipino flavor even though many karate influenced instructors do their damnedest to kill it.  The anyos break down very cleanly and in parallel to the  basic empty hand applications we have from drilling.  For example anyo 1 begins with trapping hands; anyo 2 with applied gunting or crossada strikes, and anyo 3 with siniwalli boxing (1 count).  
Many of the anyos indicate a left-dominant author (no real suprise there), but I think in looking at break down we too often  go astray by forgeting that author.  I have way too  often seen people insisting that this or that move comes from anyo whatever when the move is not only something Professor never taught _as a technique_ , but never would have done.  Easy example; we all saw Professor trap, parry, and stop-hit.  Never hard block, hard puch.   Modern Arnis is fundamentally about flow, and the anyos should reflect that.  This is not to say that they should not have crispness and precision, but those qualities should be within a fluid matrix.
The empty hand anyos can be applied with various weapons; I use some of the motions in anyos 4 and 5 to teach sarong and other flexible weapons.  Did Professor intend this?  Probably not; but it fits well, and the dovetail fit of Modern Arnis to correct human combative movement is at the the core of the art.
To hit some of Rich's specific questions, I teach a very flowing style.  I use somewhat deeper stances, but only allow my students to go as deep as they can fluidly move from.  I am a bastard on footwork transitions (Monday night my black belts got to work only on anyo 1 because the feet were still not to my liking... )
Multiple applications; absolutely.  Although my method of teaching applications is a bit different from the way some people go at it (Shameless self promotion; I will be teaching some of this at the WMAA camp in the DC area in February....)
In closing (for now) the anyos are not a perfect way to train; they are not the be-all and end-all of the art, and to try and freeze them in a rigid mold kills the very essence of FMA.  A serious Modern Arnis player needs to be aware of them and use them, though some will certainly emphasize them more than others.  They are, though, something Remy Presas gave us.  He isn't going to be giving us anythig else.  If you train his art (especially if you are a first generation student- by which I mean at some point RP was your primary instructor) how can you discard something he left you?

Chad


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## Tapps (Jan 5, 2004)

Well said Chad !!!


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## Cruentus (Jan 5, 2004)

I hate em'. I really do. Yet, I teach them because it was a part of the art, and Professor wanted them. 

I used to hate having to do them for tests because no matter how much I practiced them, or who I learned them from, there was always someone with a different "opinion" as to how they should be done, eager to "correct" me. I love being critiqued when it makes sense and I can improve from it, but I hate it when I don't feel like the critique is warrented, or helping anything besides the critics ego.

Anyways....how do I teach em? I basically copy verbatum the way Datu Hartman does them on his instructional CD-Rom. The reason why is 2-fold: 1. Tim Hartman was the one who helped to somewhat standardize the forms at the MI summer camps, and was often (especially in the early to mid 90's) the one to teach them. When ever I would ask Professor about the forms, he would send me specifically to Tim, and no one else. So, if there ever was a completely "correct" way of doing the forms, Tim must have it. 2. I don't like the forms, and I am far to lazy to break them down and analyze them. I'd rather let the forms experts do it for me, while I work on my real-life fighting skills.

Hard or Soft....? Well, it seems basically hard to me, with some "soft" elements to them. I think the reason behind this is due to the fact that Professor basically modified Shotokan Karate Forms (from when he learned a little Karate on his tour in Japan) to create our Modern Arnis Forms.

Correct way....? I teach my students that the correct way "FOR US" is the way Datu Hartman does them. Yet, in truth I don't believe that there is a correct, or even "better" way. Forms are hypothetical fighting scenarios that are used to build mostly attributes, and some fighting technique. If Professor was adament about the "correct" way of doing the forms, then because he is the founder, there would be a "correct" and "incorrect" way. He wasn't, so this tells me that many ways could be correct, just as long as they work. 

But, part of the reason I don't like the forms is because they are hypothetical solutions to hypothetical scenario's (designed to build attributes and some techniques), meaning THEY ARE NOT REAL. If your blocking something "wrong" for instance, we can find this out very quickly through sparring, or "live" drills, so there is little arguement. If your technique is "wrong" in our forms, you can justify it through a load of rhetoric and your own "applications," with no real way of anyone proving you incorrect. I think thats why a lot of people like to argue about forms...its safer to argue about the hypothetical because you can't really be proven wrong as easily. Since I choose to deal with reality, I think argueing over forms is useless.

ramble ramble....  :asian:


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## dearnis.com (Jan 5, 2004)

Not to argue over forms Paul, but.....
Seriously, you sum up the issues most people have with forms.  And rather than argue it I will say that you and I need to play with the forms sometime.  I will bet, oh, say the frosty beverages for the evening that I can show you a better way to look at them and that you will end up at least less hostile towards them.

:drinkbeer


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## Cruentus (Jan 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *Not to argue over forms Paul, but.....
> Seriously, you sum up the issues most people have with forms.  And rather than argue it I will say that you and I need to play with the forms sometime.  I will bet, oh, say the frosty beverages for the evening that I can show you a better way to look at them and that you will end up at least less hostile towards them.
> 
> :drinkbeer *



AGREED! :cheers: :drink2tha


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## dearnis.com (Jan 5, 2004)

and people say I can't br diplomatic..


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I hate em'. I really do. Yet, I teach them because it was a part of the art, and Professor wanted them.
> 
> I used to hate having to do them for tests because no matter how much I practiced them, or who I learned them from, there was always someone with a different "opinion" as to how they should be done, eager to "correct" me. *



I could have written all this!



> * Tim Hartman was the one who helped to somewhat standardize the forms at the MI summer camps, and was often (especially in the early to mid 90's) the one to teach them. *



Except when he (or the Prof.) delegated that to one of his students, who shall remain nameless.

I have always taught them hard but then pointed out that they could be done flowing. The Prof. would let you bring your other martial arts style to them and accept it but he always taught them Shotokan-style, in my experience.

I believe in the value of kata, but I just don't think these are a good fit for the art. It's essentially cross-training.


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## Cebu West (Jan 5, 2004)

I'm not crazy about forms but I find myself referring to them often enough when teaching certain techniques. I'm not sure if I'm trying to justify the forms by doing this or using them as a training tool. 
I have noticed that many people do the forms as dead movements and really don't know how the moves in them are applied outside the form. 
Once the forms are memorized I feel they should be performed with more flow which gives them more of the Filipino touch. When teaching the forms strict standards should be adhered to. This way the base will remain for future generations.

SAL


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## Cebu West (Jan 5, 2004)

Paul
Chad really isn't all that diplomatic no matter what he says. My suggestion is, have the beers before you train and you'll agree on a lot more.

Whenever you decide to play, I'm in.

SAL  :drinkbeer :duel: :cheers:


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 5, 2004)

I personally do not like forms.

I teach forms for they have a place and purpose. They are a good teaching technique and are the right way to open the door or window for them to see more.

I also like to do them in a flowing manner myself. THere are  lots of techniques in forms if you can open your mind and look or see.

I woman at work was watching some Tai Chi DVD's on her laptop and she wanted to show me knowing I was into Martial Arts. I watched and started seeing applications of the techniques, and was saying them out loud. She laughed and said these are not fighting techniques, they are for stretching and for health. I replied that I agreed, yet you could use the motions in this manner, and would demonstrate in the air. This was before the Christmas Break, well today she was watching and had a friend and introduced me as a master who could see the techniques. I told here please no master title, just guro or teacher. It is funny (wierd/different) what people see and do not see.

I think anyone would gain from training with Chad, and I am sure there are others, who could show some interesting applications and insights.

:asian:


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## dearnis.com (Jan 5, 2004)

Warning; Rant Follows!!!
:soapbox: :soapbox: 

Anyone who knows me believe I studied Tai Chi?  About 3 years.  old school.  my teacher used to put on boxing gloves when we did push hands.  This was years ago when taekwon do was my main art; the teacher only really liked me and one of my training partners; he delighted in running off the "wave hands in air/feel good" crowd.  A later training partner of mine referred to them as the nuts and berries crowd.  Great art, many crappy teachers, many more crappy students.

OK, rant over.

Sal, I saw the post in cane forms; I'll comment tomorrow; I'm feeling anti-social this evening and don't want to offend anyone.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *
> Sal, I saw the post in cane forms; I'll comment tomorrow; I'm feeling anti-social this evening and don't want to offend anyone.
> *



I took no offense.


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## Dan Anderson (Jan 5, 2004)

I teach them for two reasons: RP taught them and they do have a set up for a lot of the empty hand moves RP taught as well.  I teach them in a medium manner, neither too hard nor too soft.  The key thing I value the forms for is that the bunkai can be interpreted in many ways.  You'll see what I mean when my empty hand Modern Arnis book comes out (should be within two months).  In addition to many basics and empty hand drills, I demonstrate the 8 empty hand anyos along with various bunkai for the different movements within.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Rocky (Jan 6, 2004)

Dearnis, you pretty much summed up the Empty hand anyo's, Rmy made them up for the most part for American students.

 I personally have no use for the Anyo, I don't teach them in my Modern Arnis group.

 However I use to have no use for forms at all, I didn't think they made much scense, until I met Tom Bisio, if you want to see the Master of body mechanics checkout Tom. After saw him I realized that as long as the form mimics reality, it has merit. Think of boxing, boxing has a form, its called shadow boxing. If shadow boxing is done correctly it is done in front of a mirror, so you can see if you are steping with your jab, or if your chin is tucked and your lead foots heal is raised when throwing a left hook, so you develop maximum power from the floor up while keeping relatively covered.

 The form I teach in Modern arnis is one form that consists of 5 parts, and I guarantee every eliment will translate to full power and speed, and that if you just learn the form, while it may not make you a great fighter you will understand body mechanics and you will move like an Eskrimador.

Rocky


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## Cruentus (Jan 6, 2004)

Hey Rocky,



> The form I teach in Modern arnis is one form that consists of 5 parts



Please elaborate. Which form would that be, and whats the history behind it?

Thanks!


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2004)

The Form I teach in Modern Arnis is the same form I teach in Cuentada De Mano. It consists of 5 parts that connect together to make one long form like Tai Chi. The form concentrates on body mechanics and power generation, and is to be practiced at a regular pace and a slow more internal pace. Breathing and proper body alighnment are drilled constantly. My friend Jim Birchfield, a Hsing I  and Pau Gua instructor said it has a Hsing I flavor to it. The form is my creation, and combines many aspects of the various Filipino Arts I have done. Make no mistake it looks Filipino, not like a Karate form that lost its identity. If you have done any of the more internal Filipino arts like Balintawak you will see and feel the body connecton.


Best way I can explane it Paul is to learn it.

Take care
And stay out of trouble you!

Rocky


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## Cruentus (Jan 7, 2004)

Cool, thanks for the explaination. I was just wondering about it.

And Who...get in trouble....me?


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## Toasty (Jan 7, 2004)

Hiya Rocky
Rob Perkins here (fellow student of Nong Ted). Could you please e-mail me at Toastyrp@aol.com? I have a question for you.

thanx
Rob


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