# Tensho kata (internal form?)



## _Simon_

Hey guys, I'll preface this by saying I'm not a Chinese martial arts practitioner, nor do i know much about it, nor Taiji, Qi Gong or any of the more internal arts etc, but thought fitting to post and ask here .

I've been working on Tensho kata (a form in karate), and it's said to be more of an internal kata. I've even gone further and slowed the kata right down, working on focusing on deeply rooted stance, awareness on softening the movements, expansion (opening up the body) and compression (rooting down, sinking heaviness in body), grounding, my centre and breathing. And the feeling of being pulled down into the earth if that makes sense.

I was wondering if you guys who practice Taiji or Qi Gong etc have any advice on how to work more on these aspects, or what to focus on moreso. I realise that may be a big ask, and of course performing this with an instructor is optimal, I was just wondering what perspective you may have on this kata, and also whether it resembles any forms you know?

"Tensho" is a Goju ryu kata which means "revolving hands", "rotating palms", or "turning palms." There are different versions of it around, some with harder ibuki breathing too. I also learned it with pushing the hand out in front of you after the raising of the wrist part, but have seen versions which lower the hand back down towards the ground which tends to feel better. I've seen a few technical things I need to work on already, but it's usually a pretty advanced form in most karate styles that practice it, so I definitely consider myself an amateur at it.

I filmed it today in this slower style:






Very funnily, at the very end of the kata the phone fell off the ledge it was sitting on, perhaps I DID perform it right after all! XD

Thanks guys, any thoughts would be great


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## O'Malley

The best person to ask that question to would be a master from your own style.

You might also want to look at Ushiro Kenji's work, he's a master that does internal karate and is well regarded.

Otherwise, from my limited experience to internal training and from what you describe in your post you seem to focus on the right aspects. My advice would be to keep it as relaxed as possible.

It's difficult to see where you're at from the video since I don't know the form and internal training is difficult to evaluate through vision.

I think that it would be valuable to use push tests in order to test your structure, connection and intent through the form. It is a training method that is used in a lot of internal arts (e.g. aikido is all about constantly managing the forces applied to your body, as uke and as tori). A pretty fun experiment would be to work on that aspect with your teacher and try to devise push tests for this specific form, but unless you know what you're doing be prepared to fail a lot and, should you actually succeed, there's no guarantee you'll understand it without prior hands-on training.

As food for thought, this guy explains some internal strength concepts, maybe you could try to apply them to your form, just remember to test it:






I hope it helps


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## Yokozuna514

Osu Simon, I realize you asked for a Qi Gong perspective on your kata but if you permit me to add a few comments since we do the kata as well in Kyokushin.

Firstly thank you for sharing your video.  I will tell you now we have stylistic differences in the way you and I do this kata so I will try to focus the comments on things that are significant to your question from a functional perspective.  Some comments may be questions to understand why you do it that way.  There is no judgement call just a desire for info from your perspective.

Ibuki - when we do Ibuki breathing it is to clear the body of air.  So when we do it, the air gets cleared by the diaphragm pushing up which also has the effect of raising your ‘hara’ To the sky locking in the sanchin dachi.  We also have an audible finish to the breath at the end that sounds like a second final purge of air.  At that point the entire body is tense for a fraction of a second before the next cycle of air.

Stepping in Sanchin Dachi Backwards - I am curious to know why your feet come together and pause before completing the stance.  Is that a trasitional stance and if so do you know the purpose of why you do it that way?  We do not pause when we do this step as we do not want to see the weight transferance in the middle of the stance.  Maybe you did this because you slowed down the kata but the weight transfer is something I am trying to wrap my mind around.  We typically do not want to see this in transitions.

Bottom hand position - to me the bottom hand position is pointing too much downward.  For us the hand is in shotei and we prefer to keep the hand on a more natural angle (hand following arm position with no torsion to get the hand at 6:00).  The bunkai we mainly subscribe to is a takedown so this bottom hand is used to destabilize the lower back (upper hand is a shores strike underneath the chin).  We have seen it done the way you do this but it is not as ‘natural’ to us from a functional bunkai perspective.  Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Third hand position - you prefaced your comments by saying you like the hands to go down to the ground instead of out away from your body.  I’m going to try it your way because I am curious to see if I can get the same feeling as you.

I would like to see you do this kata at your regular speed. When we do it there are noticeable changes in speed to assist in the movements we focusing on.  

There are other differences but these are the major points I was curious about in your performance.


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## _Simon_

O'Malley said:


> The best person to ask that question to would be a master from your own style.
> 
> You might also want to look at Ushiro Kenji's work, he's a master that does internal karate and is well regarded.
> 
> Otherwise, from my limited experience to internal training and from what you describe in your post you seem to focus on the right aspects. My advice would be to keep it as relaxed as possible.
> 
> It's difficult to see where you're at from the video since I don't know the form and internal training is difficult to evaluate through vision.
> 
> I think that it would be valuable to use push tests in order to test your structure, connection and intent through the form. It is a training method that is used in a lot of internal arts (e.g. aikido is all about constantly managing the forces applied to your body, as uke and as tori). A pretty fun experiment would be to work on that aspect with your teacher and try to devise push tests for this specific form, but unless you know what you're doing be prepared to fail a lot and, should you actually succeed, there's no guarantee you'll understand it without prior hands-on training.
> 
> As food for thought, this guy explains some internal strength concepts, maybe you could try to apply them to your form, just remember to test it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope it helps



Thank you so much O'Malley, that was very helpful!

Currently I'm in between styles (left my old style about a year and a half ago), so have no teacher or other person to work with, but it would definitely be helpful to do that test.. Will hopefully at one stage be able to!

In our old style I don't think there was a deep understanding or teaching of the internal aspects of this kata, and whenever we went through it it was always fairly superficial stuff. When we did Sanchin kata (a dynamic full-body tension kata), we tested that with pushes, resistance against the arms, many hard strikes to the body, but that was very much an external kata with very very high tension levels.

I've had over-tension issues which is why I'm really working on learning relaxation in movement (and tensing only when needing to). I'll work on keeping it as relaxed as possible.

I can't believe I've never heard of Ushiro Kenji, thanks for that I'll look into him. I'm also a massive fan of Sensei Rick Hotton who really explores and teaches this stuff too, so a few of good resources. Thanks heaps


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## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> Osu Simon, I realize you asked for a Qi Gong perspective on your kata but if you permit me to add a few comments since we do the kata as well in Kyokushin.
> 
> Firstly thank you for sharing your video.  I will tell you now we have stylistic differences in the way you and I do this kata so I will try to focus the comments on things that are significant to your question from a functional perspective.  Some comments may be questions to understand why you do it that way.  There is no judgement call just a desire for info from your perspective.
> 
> Ibuki - when we do Ibuki breathing it is to clear the body of air.  So when we do it, the air gets cleared by the diaphragm pushing up which also has the effect of raising your ‘hara’ To the sky locking in the sanchin dachi.  We also have an audible finish to the breath at the end that sounds like a second final purge of air.  At that point the entire body is tense for a fraction of a second before the next cycle of air.
> 
> Stepping in Sanchin Dachi Backwards - I am curious to know why your feet come together and pause before completing the stance.  Is that a trasitional stance and if so do you know the purpose of why you do it that way?  We do not pause when we do this step as we do not want to see the weight transferance in the middle of the stance.  Maybe you did this because you slowed down the kata but the weight transfer is something I am trying to wrap my mind around.  We typically do not want to see this in transitions.
> 
> Bottom hand position - to me the bottom hand position is pointing too much downward.  For us the hand is in shotei and we prefer to keep the hand on a more natural angle (hand following arm position with no torsion to get the hand at 6:00).  The bunkai we mainly subscribe to is a takedown so this bottom hand is used to destabilize the lower back (upper hand is a shores strike underneath the chin).  We have seen it done the way you do this but it is not as ‘natural’ to us from a functional bunkai perspective.  Interested to hear your thoughts on this.
> 
> Third hand position - you prefaced your comments by saying you like the hands to go down to the ground instead of out away from your body.  I’m going to try it your way because I am curious to see if I can get the same feeling as you.
> 
> I would like to see you do this kata at your regular speed. When we do it there are noticeable changes in speed to assist in the movements we focusing on.
> 
> There are other differences but these are the major points I was curious about in your performance.



G'day! Ah I was actually hoping for your perspective too, glad you chimed in .

Yep you're right, I did alter it quite a bit in order to really hone in on and focus on internal components, and that's definitely not the standard way we did it or were taught.

Ibuki- yep, it's usually done with audible ibuki, I purposefully didn't do it forcefully so as not to overtense. I really worked on gentle natural breath for this version.

Stepping backwards in sanchin dachi- yeah the stances are usually more flowing, to be honest I'm not too sure why I did that pause! Perhaps it was as I was slowing everything right down that I took a slight pause, but it wasn't planned or anything hehe!

Bottom hand position- I wasn't sure which part you meant, do you mean the gedan shotei uchi (after the sort of shuto hizo uchi), or the mawashi uke at the end (or both really)? The shotei uchi we've always practiced fingers down, wrist bent back so as to strike/contact with shotei. Am unaware of any other ways.. but I guess depends on the application. I'm unsure if Tensho kata was actually meant to have a practical bunkai or moreso designed to teach fundamental principles (it was a Shodan kata in our Kyokushin, so I never got extensive training in it, only a certain amount of sessions). But mawashi uke I've worked with some awesome applications... parrying and trapping the arm while stepping in and shotei under the jaw and takedown etc.

Third hand position- yeah we were taught after the rising koken, to roll the wrist over and extend out like shuto sakutsu uchi kekomi, but I've seen the other version done before, and after practicing it I like the rooted feeling it provides. It sort of feels like you're sending energy down through your centre into the ground, but each has its pros!

Yeah there are definite alterations I've done while trying to still stay true to the kata. I guess it was an attempt at feeling out and connecting more with my centre, breathing and the internal aspect. It's completely and totally an adventurous experiment, and I certainly make no claims to know what I'm doing hehe, but I've been learning alot about grounding and relaxing of late and thought what better a kata to really delve into that with!

And there were even more things I noticed that I did differently (technically speaking) and I believe I know why:

-When doing the koken/shotei sequences, my whole arms moved more freely, even though I know we were taught to keep the upper arm relatively still and to the side of your body while the lower arm moves. I exaggerated the arm movements just to get more of the whole body involved in the movements, and to understand feeling of expansion outwards and compressing in and down.

-Even my Sanchin dachi looked a bit wider than what I'd usually do, I think an attempt to sink my weight deeper to feel more grounded and rooted in my stance.


I'm more than happy to record the normal way we do it (at proper speed and with ibuki etc), would be cool seeing the comparison actually! I'll even wear my tattered, ripped Kyokushin gi 

Really appreciate that feedback, thanks for posting


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## Christopher Adamchek

Hello 
You are right the form does resemble Chinese martial arts, specifically white crane, but was decently altered by Myagi as he "created" it.  Here is a good article that discusses the origins of Tensho 
The origins of tensho

Notes on your form: (besides stylistic things)
- it looked clean 
- your heavy breathing was good with no glottal sounds
- i feel like your sanchin is a bit wide but it could be the camera angle 
- you crescent moon step going forward but straight angle step going backwards, did you mean to?


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## Flying Crane

What was the bird calling I could hear in the video?


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## Kung Fu Wang

All those so called "internal" training are body push/pull arms. Since that clip contains freeze the body and only move the arm, it does not meet the "internal" training requirement.

At 0.52 - 1.00, you are training "internal" if you freeze your shoulder and use your body to pull your arm,

- Rotate your body to your left, your body pull your arm to your left.
- Rotate your body to your right, your body pull your arm to your right,
- Raise your body up, your body pull your arm up.
- Bend your body forward, your body pull you arm down.

Since you are freezing your body and only move your arm, you are not training "internal". You can only see the body movement and you don't see the arm movement is very important in "internal" training. You train your body and not just train your arms.


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## TSDTexan

when i think of Tensho from the Goju perspective... i have to share this:


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## JR 137

Flying Crane said:


> What was the bird calling I could hear in the video?


I was trying to get a pretty lady’s attention. Didn’t work, as usual.


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## _Simon_

Christopher Adamchek said:


> Hello
> You are right the form does resemble Chinese martial arts, specifically white crane, but was decently altered by Myagi as he "created" it.  Here is a good article that discusses the origins of Tensho
> The origins of tensho
> 
> Notes on your form: (besides stylistic things)
> - it looked clean
> - your heavy breathing was good with no glottal sounds
> - i feel like your sanchin is a bit wide but it could be the camera angle
> - you crescent moon step going forward but straight angle step going backwards, did you mean to?



Ah thanks heaps for that!

Yeah my sanchin dachi I don't think is usually that wide, but I think my focus on grounding and a deeply rooted stance did that unconsciously hehe.

As for the stepping no that wasn't planned. and I'm not sure why that happened, apart from maybe that I was trying to slow it all down even more, and my footwork changed. But what a strange thing to come about mid-kata hey!


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> I was trying to get a pretty lady’s attention. Didn’t work, as usual.


Hahaha 


Flying Crane said:


> What was the bird calling I could hear in the video?


I think mostly pigeons! We have a few around. They love our backyard! The other birds that made slight appearances not too sure.

And that loud buzzing that came in was probably Wile E. Coyote with one of his ACME contraptions...


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## _Simon_

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All those so called "internal" training are body push/pull arms. Since that clip contains freeze the body and only move the arm, it does not meet the "internal" training requirement.
> 
> At 0.52 - 1.00, you are training "internal" if you freeze your shoulder and use your body to pull your arm,
> 
> - Rotate your body to your left, your body pull your arm to your left.
> - Rotate your body to your right, your body pull your arm to your right,
> - Raise your body up, your body pull your arm up.
> - Bend your body forward, your body pull you arm down.
> 
> Since you are freezing your body and only move your arm, you are not training "internal". You can only see the body movement and you don't see the arm movement is very important in "internal" training. You train your body and not just train your arms.



Thanks KFW, I didn't realise that! I tried to get some movement in, slightly dipping in the knees at times, to get the whole body involved a little bit more and to get the 'sense' of sinking/grounding. But yeah I guess the style of kata that it is it is fairly static in that way.

Although I did think that internal energy can 'move' despite the body not necessarily moving? Just a thought, but perhaps that's more advanced... Thanks for that I wasn't aware, I'll play around with that .


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## _Simon_

TSDTexan said:


> when i think of Tensho from the Goju perspective... i have to share this:


That was SO darn cool to see... thanks for posting! I could see there was even a bit more body movement from him... that's really interesting!!!


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## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> Hahaha I think mostly pigeons! We have a few around. They love our backyard! The other birds that made slight appearances not too sure.
> 
> And that loud buzzing that came in was probably Wile E. Coyote with one of his ACME contraptions...


Thanks.

And to input on your initial questions, I will say that I studied taiji with only moderate seriousness, but for a decade or so.  I finally dropped it from my practice because I came to realize I just don’t understand it.  I will say though, that my perception of internal, such as it exists, centers around efficient full-body connection which dramatically reduces the need to rely on brute force/strength.  

It is my belief that it is probably not possible to reverse-engineer an understanding of internal martial arts on a significant level, or on a level comparable to a serious student of the Chinese internal methods, by studying a non-internal art and using that as a vehicle, without significant instruction by a knowledgeable instructor in the internal methods.  

In short: best to find a good taiji instructor.  Eventually, what you learn from him will likely influence your karate.  But you first need some quality instruction and training.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> I studied taiji with only moderate seriousness, but for a decade or so.  I finally dropped it from my practice because I came to realize I just don’t understand it.


The way that I understand Taiji may be different from others.

In Taiji, you try to develop:

1. Body push/pull limbs - MT roundhouse kick can be a good example..
2. 6 harmony body coordination - hand coordinate with foot, elbow coordinate with knee, shoulder coordinate with hip.
3. All body parts move at the same time and stop at the same time.

When you move in fast speed, you may not pay enough attention on those small detail. But you will when you move slow.

This short clip shows body push/pull arms.


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## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> Thanks.
> 
> And to input on your initial questions, I will say that I studied taiji with only moderate seriousness, but for a decade or so.  I finally dropped it from my practice because I came to realize I just don’t understand it.  I will say though, that my perception of internal, such as it exists, centers around efficient full-body connection which dramatically reduces the need to rely on brute force/strength.
> 
> It is my belief that it is probably not possible to reverse-engineer an understanding of internal martial arts on a significant level, or on a level comparable to a serious student of the Chinese internal methods, by studying a non-internal art and using that as a vehicle, without significant instruction by a knowledgeable instructor in the internal methods.
> 
> In short: best to find a good taiji instructor.  Eventually, what you learn from him will likely influence your karate.  But you first need some quality instruction and training.



Appreciate that, yep very well said, totally agree. Like I said it was purely an experiment and interest, and I don't expect to become proficient in it or gain a deep understanding without guidance. But any tips I can implement and learn along the way I feel I could work on incorporating. Even though it is quite limited ay.

I like your view/description on internal methods too . I feel like there may be more to it, but I like that as a big element of it which I'd love to work on.


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## DaveB

Hi Simon,

I've trained a bit in one of the sub-styles of White Crane from whence this and Sanchin seem to have come. 

The main thing that those crane and related southern kungfu styles do that is "internal" is Iron Body training and that is the main point of sanchin and what has morphed into ibuki breathing in Japanese arts.

White Crane and it's derivatives are not internal martial arts, the stance doesnt support IMA concepts, niether do the movements or strategy. 

However the idea of cultivating and channelling chi is ubiquitous in Chinese ma. It's even present in Shotokan and you don't get more external than Shotokan. 

If cultivation of chi is your interest then I'd find chi gong instructions and apply it to Tensho. 

If it's Iron Body then you need to find an instructor to change your breathing and teach you the other exercises involved.


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## Finlay

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The way that I understand Taiji may be different from others.
> 
> In Taiji, you try to develop:
> 
> 1. Body push/pull limbs - MT roundhouse kick can be a good example..
> 2. 6 harmony body coordination - hand coordinate with foot, elbow coordinate with knee, shoulder coordinate with hip.
> 3. All body parts move at the same time and stop at the same time.
> 
> When you move in fast speed, you may not pay enough attention on those small detail. But you will when you move slow.
> 
> This short clip shows body push/pull arms.




This is my understanding as well. My teacher used to say that even if one finger moves then your whole body moves. 

In the nei gong style I have done it is either your whole body is involved in the movement or your whole body is static as in standing post.


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## Flying Crane

_Simon_ said:


> Appreciate that, yep very well said, totally agree. Like I said it was purely an experiment and interest, and I don't expect to become proficient in it or gain a deep understanding without guidance. But any tips I can implement and learn along the way I feel I could work on incorporating. Even though it is quite limited ay.
> 
> I like your view/description on internal methods too . I feel like there may be more to it, but I like that as a big element of it which I'd love to work on.


There may be more to it.  

I’ve had people describe their qi “sloshing around” inside their body, feeling as if they are taking a shower on the inside.  I’ve never felt anything even remotely like that, and I don’t know that i buy the notion of qi as something distinct like that, that can be specifically felt and directed and controlled.  And yet I’ve seen these people do some eye-opening things in terms of generating power and stability with seemingly no effort.

So, what do I know?  Not much, perhaps.


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## _Simon_

DaveB said:


> Hi Simon,
> 
> I've trained a bit in one of the sub-styles of White Crane from whence this and Sanchin seem to have come.
> 
> The main thing that those crane and related southern kungfu styles do that is "internal" is Iron Body training and that is the main point of sanchin and what has morphed into ibuki breathing in Japanese arts.
> 
> White Crane and it's derivatives are not internal martial arts, the stance doesnt support IMA concepts, niether do the movements or strategy.
> 
> However the idea of cultivating and channelling chi is ubiquitous in Chinese ma. It's even present in Shotokan and you don't get more external than Shotokan.
> 
> If cultivation of chi is your interest then I'd find chi gong instructions and apply it to Tensho.
> 
> If it's Iron Body then you need to find an instructor to change your breathing and teach you the other exercises involved.



Thanks DaveB for the info, interesting stuff!


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## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> There may be more to it.
> 
> I’ve had people describe their qi “sloshing around” inside their body, feeling as if they are taking a shower on the inside.  I’ve never felt anything even remotely like that, and I don’t know that i buy the notion of qi as something distinct like that, that can be specifically felt and directed and controlled.  And yet I’ve seen these people do some eye-opening things in terms of generating power and stability with seemingly no effort.
> 
> So, what do I know?  Not much, perhaps.



Nah fair enough! All perspectives are welcome, gives me food for thought


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> -When doing the koken/shotei sequences, my whole arms moved more freely, even though I know we were taught to keep the upper arm relatively still and to the side of your body while the lower arm moves. I exaggerated the arm movements just to get more of the whole body involved in the movements, and to understand feeling of expansion outwards and compressing in and down.
> 
> -Even my Sanchin dachi looked a bit wider than what I'd usually do, I think an attempt to sink my weight deeper to feel more grounded and rooted in my stance.
> 
> 
> I'm more than happy to record the normal way we do it (at proper speed and with ibuki etc), would be cool seeing the comparison actually! I'll even wear my tattered, ripped Kyokushin gi


I would be interested to see this at the actual speed you normally practice because I thought the speed was fine (without the pauses in stance).  Perhaps we do the arm movements during inhalation much quicker but this is the speed we do the exhalation sections.  

We also use a wider sanchin dachi.  I agree it makes you feel more 'grounded'.   Some instructors do not like the knees so wide apart but if your 'hara' is in the right position, than your privates are still protected from a kick between your legs.

The hand positions for mae mawashi uke when you do your kata are at 12 and 6 but your bottom palm is facing your opponent and your fingers are pointing straight down.   We have actually stopped doing it this way because of the tension that his built up in the arm to force the hand into this position.  We now do it with a more natural hand position to put less strain on the wrist.  It is really a small change in the overall picture but it is interesting to see the little differences in everyone's kata as they have learned it from their instructors/orgs.   No judgement, just interesting.  Thanks for sharing.


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## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> I would be interested to see this at the actual speed you normally practice because I thought the speed was fine (without the pauses in stance).  Perhaps we do the arm movements during inhalation much quicker but this is the speed we do the exhalation sections.
> 
> We also use a wider sanchin dachi.  I agree it makes you feel more 'grounded'.   Some instructors do not like the knees so wide apart but if your 'hara' is in the right position, than your privates are still protected from a kick between your legs.
> 
> The hand positions for mae mawashi uke when you do your kata are at 12 and 6 but your bottom palm is facing your opponent and your fingers are pointing straight down.   We have actually stopped doing it this way because of the tension that his built up in the arm to force the hand into this position.  We now do it with a more natural hand position to put less strain on the wrist.  It is really a small change in the overall picture but it is interesting to see the little differences in everyone's kata as they have learned it from their instructors/orgs.   No judgement, just interesting.  Thanks for sharing.



Ah that's interesting... thanks for that. Especially regarding mae mawashi uke, and that makes sense. We've always done it to try as best as possible to get the hand at a 90° angle (I guess to resemble gedan shotei uchi), which my wrist flexibility is not great at all so that's the best I can do haha. Will hopefully film it later today as am helping out in kid's class tonight so will have the gi on anyway haha


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## _Simon_

Osu @Yokazuna514, just filmed it how we normally do it. Note the hand movement after the rising koken, this is how we usually do it.

Oh and also disregard my right foot in sanchin dachi haha, have a sprained ankle so that's how far I could turn it in really XD

And also whacked the vacuum cleaner on my first mawashi uke haha..

And keep in mind it's a 4th kyu performance of this kata hehe, we weren't expected to know it at this grade.


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Osu @Yokazuna514, just filmed it how we normally do it. Note the hand movement after the rising koken, this is how we usually do it.
> 
> Oh and also disregard my right foot in sanchin dachi haha, have a sprained ankle so that's how far I could turn it in really XD
> 
> And also whacked the vacuum cleaner on my first mawashi uke haha..
> 
> And keep in mind it's a 4th kyu performance of this kata hehe, we weren't expected to know it at this grade.


Nicely done Simon and thank you for sharing.  Aside from a few hand angles, we are essentially doing the same kata.   The only observation I would make is in your movement in sanchin dachi when you are moving backwards.  There is a noticeable weight transference in the stance that has your head/body moving off centre while moving backwards.  Generally, when we do the kata, we do not want the head and body to move sideways.  We accomplish this by moving the feet faster so that the weigh transference is not noticeable.

Other than that I thought it was really good for a guy that was a 4th kyu and doesn’t practice it that often.  How did you injure your ankle ?


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## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> Nicely done Simon and thank you for sharing.  Aside from a few hand angles, we are essentially doing the same kata.   The only observation I would make is in your movement in sanchin dachi when you are moving backwards.  There is a noticeable weight transference in the stance that has your head/body moving off centre while moving backwards.  Generally, when we do the kata, we do not want the head and body to move sideways.  We accomplish this by moving the feet faster so that the weigh transference is not noticeable.
> 
> Other than that I thought it was really good for a guy that was a 4th kyu and doesn’t practice it that often.  How did you injure your ankle ?



Thanks heaps . Ah yep I watched it back and I see what you mean about the body movement/rocking, will be conscious of that, cheers!

Injured my ankle in a tournament, 7 and a half weeks ago! Rolled it in a strange way. It got barely slightly better, but now has just gotten worse (I started a thread about it), got an x-ray yesterday and got an ultrasound in few weeks.


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks heaps . Ah yep I watched it back and I see what you mean about the body movement/rocking, will be conscious of that, cheers!
> 
> Injured my ankle in a tournament, 7 and a half weeks ago! Rolled it in a strange way. It got barely slightly better, but now has just gotten worse (I started a thread about it), got an x-ray yesterday and got an ultrasound in few weeks.


Yes, I remember now.  Sorry to hear it has gotten worse instead of better.   Glad to hear you have taken the next steps to rule out fractures and any issues stemming from deep soft tissue damage.  Good luck and hope it isn't anything more serious that some rest will cure.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Osu @Yokazuna514, just filmed it how we normally do it. Note the hand movement after the rising koken, this is how we usually do it.
> 
> Oh and also disregard my right foot in sanchin dachi haha, have a sprained ankle so that's how far I could turn it in really XD
> 
> And also whacked the vacuum cleaner on my first mawashi uke haha..
> 
> And keep in mind it's a 4th kyu performance of this kata hehe, we weren't expected to know it at this grade.


That’s how we do the kata as well, except for an angle or two of the hands. It’s possible that your hand angles could be your own variation as well. If you were in my dojo, I don’t think anyone would really catch on to it the first few times you did it if they weren’t looking for specific differences. It’s just me being analytical here.

Very good performance. I won’t take points off for what I’m assuming is due to the ankle injury 

What rank is Tensho typically taught at in Kyokushin? Both organizations I’ve been in (Seido and a local Kyokushin offshoot) did Tensho at 1st kyu. Tensho and Saiha/Saifa were the last 2 kata before shodan.


----------



## Yokozuna514

JR 137 said:


> That’s how we do the kata as well, except for an angle or two of the hands. It’s possible that your hand angles could be your own variation as well. If you were in my dojo, I don’t think anyone would really catch on to it the first few times you did it if they weren’t looking for specific differences. It’s just me being analytical here.
> 
> Very good performance. I won’t take points off for what I’m assuming is due to the ankle injury
> 
> What rank is Tensho typically taught at in Kyokushin? Both organizations I’ve been in (Seido and a local Kyokushin offshoot) did Tensho at 1st kyu. Tensho and Saiha/Saifa were the last 2 kata before shodan.


Different orgs can have different requirements but as far as I know most of the major Kyokushin orgs classify Tensho as a 1st kyu requirement and Saiha as a Shodan requirement.


----------



## JR 137

Yokazuna514 said:


> Different orgs can have different requirements but as far as I know most of the major Kyokushin orgs classify Tensho as a 1st kyu requirement and Saiha as a Shodan requirement.


I’ve seen Saiha as a shodan kata often in Kyokushin. I wasn’t sure if Tensho was ikkyu or shodan in most of them.

I’ve seen Gekisai Sho and Seiunchin as nidan kata, both organizations I’ve been in had them at shodan. I’ve looked at the kata syllabus as bumped up one rank in most Kyokushin organizations.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> Yes, I remember now.  Sorry to hear it has gotten worse instead of better.   Glad to hear you have taken the next steps to rule out fractures and any issues stemming from deep soft tissue damage.  Good luck and hope it isn't anything more serious that some rest will cure.


Osu thanks so much, appreciate your kind thoughts.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> That’s how we do the kata as well, except for an angle or two of the hands. It’s possible that your hand angles could be your own variation as well. If you were in my dojo, I don’t think anyone would really catch on to it the first few times you did it if they weren’t looking for specific differences. It’s just me being analytical here.
> 
> Very good performance. I won’t take points off for what I’m assuming is due to the ankle injury
> 
> What rank is Tensho typically taught at in Kyokushin? Both organizations I’ve been in (Seido and a local Kyokushin offshoot) did Tensho at 1st kyu. Tensho and Saiha/Saifa were the last 2 kata before shodan.



Osu thanks mate appreciate that. Yeah Tensho was needed for Shodan in our branch, also Saiha.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> I’ve seen Saiha as a shodan kata often in Kyokushin. I wasn’t sure if Tensho was ikkyu or shodan in most of them.
> 
> I’ve seen Gekisai Sho and Seiunchin as nidan kata, both organizations I’ve been in had them at shodan. I’ve looked at the kata syllabus as bumped up one rank in most Kyokushin organizations.



Ah that's interesting, Gekisai Dai and Gekisai Sho were both required for 3th kyu in ours. Seienchin a 3rd dan requirement. And I guess each has its reasons for it being that way, but I find it fascinating when there's a drastic difference.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Ah that's interesting, Gekisai Dai and Gekisai Sho were both required for 3th kyu in ours. Seienchin a 3rd dan requirement. And I guess each has its reasons for it being that way, but I find it fascinating when there's a drastic difference.


I’ve never heard of Gekisai Sho being a kyu kata before. That’s interesting. 

I never liked that kata. I learned it at shodan and thought it didn’t feel like a black belt kata. I though Saiha felt far more like a black belt kata than Gekisai Sho.

And the history of Gekisai Sho is all wrong IMO. People cut and paste Hanshi Steve Arneill’s book that says it was Chojun Miyagi’s kata. No idea where he got that information from, but IMO it’s Oyama’s kata, not Miyagi’s.

All the sources say “Dai” and “Sho” are used in place of numbering them. Goju Ryu has Gekisai Dai ichi and ni. People say Sho is ni, but it’s not even close. No Goju school does anything that resembles Gekisai Sho; it’s only in Kyokushin and offshoots. If it was Miyagi’s kata, at least one Goju lineage would do it. Oyama never studied under Miyagi that I know of. He studied under Yamaguchi and So Nei Chu. Goju Kai (Yamaguchi’s lineage) doesn’t do it. The only one possible is So. I don’t think he’s got a lineage still active, so it could be his, but I doubt it.

Just a thought. Sorry to sidetrack. A lot of people are adamant about it being Miyagi’s kata because Hanshi Arneill said so. It’s practically impossible to discredit Arneill, but he could’ve been wrong once, right? He’s human too.


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> I’ve never heard of Gekisai Sho being a kyu kata before. That’s interesting.
> 
> I never liked that kata. I learned it at shodan and thought it didn’t feel like a black belt kata. I though Saiha felt far more like a black belt kata than Gekisai Sho.
> 
> And the history of Gekisai Sho is all wrong IMO. People cut and paste Hanshi Steve Arneill’s book that says it was Chojun Miyagi’s kata. No idea where he got that information from, but IMO it’s Oyama’s kata, not Miyagi’s.
> 
> All the sources say “Dai” and “Sho” are used in place of numbering them. Goju Ryu has Gekisai Dai ichi and ni. People say Sho is ni, but it’s not even close. No Goju school does anything that resembles Gekisai Sho; it’s only in Kyokushin and offshoots. If it was Miyagi’s kata, at least one Goju lineage would do it. Oyama never studied under Miyagi that I know of. He studied under Yamaguchi and So Nei Chu. Goju Kai (Yamaguchi’s lineage) doesn’t do it. The only one possible is So. I don’t think he’s got a lineage still active, so it could be his, but I doubt it.
> 
> Just a thought. Sorry to sidetrack. A lot of people are adamant about it being Miyagi’s kata because Hanshi Arneill said so. It’s practically impossible to discredit Arneill, but he could’ve been wrong once, right? He’s human too.



Yeah it doesn't make sense that Gekisai Sho is a black belt kata... I actually don't mind it. Probably prefer Gekisai Dai. LOVE the end with the double punch sequence, feels so powerful haha.

And yeah it doesn't resemble Gekisai Dai Ni at all! It is a confusing kata in terms of history..

The name also doesn't make sense. It looks as though Sho is an expanded version of Dai, yet Dai means large/larger and Sho is small/smaller, so I don't get it haha.

And don't apologize, I love a good sidetracking haha.


----------



## Yokozuna514

JR 137 said:


> I’ve never heard of Gekisai Sho being a kyu kata before. That’s interesting.





_Simon_ said:


> Yeah it doesn't make sense that Gekisai Sho is a black belt kata.


I learned Gekisai Dai and Sho when I was in the kyu ranks but it was not a requirement until Shodan.  I have heard many different theories on these katas but I have yet to find one that makes complete sense to me.  I enjoy doing both katas.  They both have a lot too them that I am just scratching the surface on.


JR 137 said:


> Just a thought. Sorry to sidetrack. A lot of people are adamant about it being Miyagi’s kata because Hanshi Arneill said so. It’s practically impossible to discredit Arneill, but he could’ve been wrong once, right? He’s human too.


Amazing man and unbelievable karateka.   Are you sure he's human  ?


----------



## JR 137

Yokazuna514 said:


> I learned Gekisai Dai and Sho when I was in the kyu ranks but it was not a requirement until Shodan.  I have heard many different theories on these katas but I have yet to find one that makes complete sense to me.  I enjoy doing both katas.  They both have a lot too them that I am just scratching the surface on.
> 
> Amazing man and unbelievable karateka.   Are you sure he's human  ?


Gekisai Dai is Chojun Miyagi and Soshin Nagamine’s kata. I don’t think there’s any debate on that. It’s very well documented.

Gekisai Sho is whatever the practitioner thinks it is  I don’t outright dislike it; if it was a 2nd or 1st kyu kata, I’d appreciate it more.

And yeah, I was getting technical regarding Hanshi Arneill. I guess technically he’s human. Compared to everyone else, not so much


----------



## TSDTexan

JR 137 said:


> Gekisai Dai is Chojun Miyagi and Soshin Nagamine’s kata. I don’t think there’s any debate on that. It’s very well documented.
> 
> Gekisai Sho is whatever the practitioner thinks it is  I don’t outright dislike it; if it was a 2nd or 1st kyu kata, I’d appreciate it more.
> 
> And yeah, I was getting technical regarding Hanshi Arneill. I guess technically he’s human. Compared to everyone else, not so much



These Kata were created ay the request of Gen Hayakawa (governor of the Okinawa Prefecture) via the Karate-Do Special Committee.

The idea was to create standardised kata that would cut across all the various streams of karate, that were suitable for novices, and would provide a common grounding in the basics of karate.

The Pinans had been in existence for some time, but they were considered to be a summation of “Shuri-te” line alone (quite rightly) and hence were lacking the “Naha-te” side of things.

Shoshin Nagamine made the first kata (Fukyugata Ich) and Chojun Miyagi made the second kata (Fukyugata Ni).

Matsubayashi-ryu still practise them both.

Fukyugata Ni remains part of Goju-Ryu but under the revised name of Gekisai Dai Ichi (normally the first kata taught in Goju-Ryu).

Chojun Miyagi later went on to teach a second version of the same kata, which is largely the same, but with the addition of the circular hand motions common to other Goju kata.

This revised version of Fukyugata Ni / Gekisai Dai Ichi is called Gekisai Dai Ni (normally the second kata taught in Goju).

-Iain Abernethy says this... and it also stated in
Nagamine's (1976). _The Essence of Okinawan Karate_.

Futhermore...

The kata were finished and introduced in 1941 in order to promote a basic and standard kata across a majority of Okinawan Karate styles, however only some styles continue to practice both, or one of these kata.

A third Fukyugata (Sandan) was composed by Sensei Ansei Ueshiro in 1960, consisting of 17 movements.

The Shorin-Ryu Okinawan Karate Question and Answer Book, written by William Cummins and Robert Scaglione, describes this kata as "characterized by techniques emphasizing speed, combinations and strong, low stances." However, this kata was never adopted in Okinawa Prefecture.

And to further add comlexity:
A third Fukyugata has been created (c. 2015) to showcase Uechi-ryu technique.

As for Mas Oyama developing any of these kata.... that is a nonsensical notion. He didn't start karate until 1946. He didn't create Kyokushin until a decade later.

In 1940, the Governor of Okinawa, Gen Hayakawa, assembled a prestigious Karate-Do Special Committee to address the need for easier basic kata for children.

It is important to note that the formation of the special committee was instigated by the government.

Previous karate groups and societies had been privately organized.

Except for the chairman, the members of the committee represented the new, or transitional, generation of karate instructors.

The list of the nine members was given to Charles C. Goodin by Nagamine Sensei [during an interview about this kata], this lists order: (1) Ishihara Shochoku (chairman), (2) Miyagi Chojun, (3) Kamiya Jinsei, (4) Shinzato Jinan, (5) Miyasato Koji, (6) Tokuda Anbun, (7) Kinjo Kensei, (8) Kyan Shinei, and (9) Nagamine Shoshin

to read the interview, it can be located at The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata

 The interview was completed just a few weeks prior to Nagamine Shoshin's death on November 2, 1997 at the age of 91./2


----------



## _Simon_

TSDTexan said:


> These Kata were created ay the request of Gen Hayakawa (governor of the Okinawa Prefecture) via the Karate-Do Special Committee.
> 
> The idea was to create standardised kata that would cut across all the various streams of karate, that were suitable for novices, and would provide a common grounding in the basics of karate.
> 
> The Pinans had been in existence for some time, but they were considered to be a summation of “Shuri-te” line alone (quite rightly) and hence were lacking the “Naha-te” side of things.
> 
> Shoshin Nagamine made the first kata (Fukyugata Ich) and Chojun Miyagi made the second kata (Fukyugata Ni).
> 
> Matsubayashi-ryu still practise them both.
> 
> Fukyugata Ni remains part of Goju-Ryu but under the revised name of Gekisai Dai Ichi (normally the first kata taught in Goju-Ryu).
> 
> Chojun Miyagi later went on to teach a second version of the same kata, which is largely the same, but with the addition of the circular hand motions common to other Goju kata.
> 
> This revised version of Fukyugata Ni / Gekisai Dai Ichi is called Gekisai Dai Ni (normally the second kata taught in Goju).
> 
> -Iain Abernethy says this... and it also stated in
> Nagamine's (1976). _The Essence of Okinawan Karate_.
> 
> Futhermore...
> 
> The kata were finished and introduced in 1941 in order to promote a basic and standard kata across a majority of Okinawan Karate styles, however only some styles continue to practice both, or one of these kata.
> 
> A third Fukyugata (Sandan) was composed by Sensei Ansei Ueshiro in 1960, consisting of 17 movements.
> 
> The Shorin-Ryu Okinawan Karate Question and Answer Book, written by William Cummins and Robert Scaglione, describes this kata as "characterized by techniques emphasizing speed, combinations and strong, low stances." However, this kata was never adopted in Okinawa Prefecture.
> 
> And to further add comlexity:
> A third Fukyugata has been created (c. 2015) to showcase Uechi-ryu technique.
> 
> As for Mas Oyama developing any of these kata.... that is a nonsensical notion. He didn't start karate until 1946. He didn't create Kyokushin until a decade later.
> 
> In 1940, the Governor of Okinawa, Gen Hayakawa, assembled a prestigious Karate-Do Special Committee to address the need for easier basic kata for children.
> 
> It is important to note that the formation of the special committee was instigated by the government.
> 
> Previous karate groups and societies had been privately organized.
> 
> Except for the chairman, the members of the committee represented the new, or transitional, generation of karate instructors.
> 
> The list of the nine members was given to Charles C. Goodin by Nagamine Sensei [during an interview about this kata], this lists order: (1) Ishihara Shochoku (chairman), (2) Miyagi Chojun, (3) Kamiya Jinsei, (4) Shinzato Jinan, (5) Miyasato Koji, (6) Tokuda Anbun, (7) Kinjo Kensei, (8) Kyan Shinei, and (9) Nagamine Shoshin
> 
> to read the interview, it can be located at The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata
> 
> The interview was completed just a few weeks prior to Nagamine Shoshin's death on November 2, 1997 at the age of 91./2


Ah that's really cool, thanks for posting that!

But we were talking about the origins of Gekisai Sho (which is different to Gekisai Dai Ni). We're not sure where it came from...


----------



## _Simon_

Just had a look in my old syllabus but not much clarification there, except that the Dai and Sho don't mean anything specific to the kata, didn't know that! Perhaps simply as a way of differentiating it from Goju's Ichi and Ni series?

Have written what it says here:

"Gekisai Dai: Conquer and occupy - major. May also mean "Storm the Fortress". Created by Miyagi in 1940 with the purpose of teaching strong and powerful movement.

Gekisai Sho: Conquer and occupy - minor. There is no reason why one is called major and the other minor. Can also mean "attack and smash, demolish, destroy, pulverize". Both kata teach strength through fluidity of motion, mobility and the utilization of various techniques. Flexibility of attack and response will always be superior to rigid and inflexible strength."


----------



## JR 137

TSDTexan said:


> These Kata were created ay the request of Gen Hayakawa (governor of the Okinawa Prefecture) via the Karate-Do Special Committee.
> 
> The idea was to create standardised kata that would cut across all the various streams of karate, that were suitable for novices, and would provide a common grounding in the basics of karate.
> 
> The Pinans had been in existence for some time, but they were considered to be a summation of “Shuri-te” line alone (quite rightly) and hence were lacking the “Naha-te” side of things.
> 
> Shoshin Nagamine made the first kata (Fukyugata Ich) and Chojun Miyagi made the second kata (Fukyugata Ni).
> 
> Matsubayashi-ryu still practise them both.
> 
> Fukyugata Ni remains part of Goju-Ryu but under the revised name of Gekisai Dai Ichi (normally the first kata taught in Goju-Ryu).
> 
> Chojun Miyagi later went on to teach a second version of the same kata, which is largely the same, but with the addition of the circular hand motions common to other Goju kata.
> 
> This revised version of Fukyugata Ni / Gekisai Dai Ichi is called Gekisai Dai Ni (normally the second kata taught in Goju).
> 
> -Iain Abernethy says this... and it also stated in
> Nagamine's (1976). _The Essence of Okinawan Karate_.
> 
> Futhermore...
> 
> The kata were finished and introduced in 1941 in order to promote a basic and standard kata across a majority of Okinawan Karate styles, however only some styles continue to practice both, or one of these kata.
> 
> A third Fukyugata (Sandan) was composed by Sensei Ansei Ueshiro in 1960, consisting of 17 movements.
> 
> The Shorin-Ryu Okinawan Karate Question and Answer Book, written by William Cummins and Robert Scaglione, describes this kata as "characterized by techniques emphasizing speed, combinations and strong, low stances." However, this kata was never adopted in Okinawa Prefecture.
> 
> And to further add comlexity:
> A third Fukyugata has been created (c. 2015) to showcase Uechi-ryu technique.
> 
> As for Mas Oyama developing any of these kata.... that is a nonsensical notion. He didn't start karate until 1946. He didn't create Kyokushin until a decade later.
> 
> In 1940, the Governor of Okinawa, Gen Hayakawa, assembled a prestigious Karate-Do Special Committee to address the need for easier basic kata for children.
> 
> It is important to note that the formation of the special committee was instigated by the government.
> 
> Previous karate groups and societies had been privately organized.
> 
> Except for the chairman, the members of the committee represented the new, or transitional, generation of karate instructors.
> 
> The list of the nine members was given to Charles C. Goodin by Nagamine Sensei [during an interview about this kata], this lists order: (1) Ishihara Shochoku (chairman), (2) Miyagi Chojun, (3) Kamiya Jinsei, (4) Shinzato Jinan, (5) Miyasato Koji, (6) Tokuda Anbun, (7) Kinjo Kensei, (8) Kyan Shinei, and (9) Nagamine Shoshin
> 
> to read the interview, it can be located at The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata
> 
> The interview was completed just a few weeks prior to Nagamine Shoshin's death on November 2, 1997 at the age of 91./2


A very well written and thought out post. I knew most of it beforehand, and calling Gekisai Dai Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata was the short version 

As Simon said (  ) we’re discussing Gekisai Sho, not Gekisai Dai and it’s versions. I’ve seen several versions of Gekisai Dai by Goju and Fukyu by Shorin Ryu. None of which are similar to Gekisai Sho.

Mas Oyama has created a kata or two - one that I immediately think of is Garyu. He has heavily modified others. Gojushiho has been modified heavily by Oyama and he subsequently named his version Useishi. He heavily modified Seipai and Kanku as well. He’s modified common kyu kata such as Sanchin and Saiha, and slightly modified relatively scarce Yantsu (Shito Ryu) and Tsuki-No (Seigokan Goju Ryu).

With all of that in mind, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Oyama created Gekisai Sho as what he (and I) feel is a logical next step.

Kyokushin’s Gekisai Dai is a tweaked Gekisai Dai ichi. Kyokushin’s Gekisai Sho bears no resemblance to Gekisai Dai ni or less common san. The basic formula: counts, pace and embussen are the same; the movements are not, except the gedan brai into kiba dachi in the beginning IMO.

On face value it would appear to be Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata. Thinking about it for a few minutes - specifically who does it and who doesn’t - and eyebrows get raised. IMO Hanshi Arneil was either misinformed about the kata’s origin or assumed incorrectly. As far as I know, he was the first to write about its origin, and everything afterwards is either a direct cut and paste or copied and changed a few words.


----------



## Yokozuna514

Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho.  What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata.   When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises.  This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan.  In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas.  When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas.   I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.  


JR 137 said:


> IMO Hanshi Arneil was either misinformed about the kata’s origin or assumed incorrectly.


There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again  ......


----------



## JR 137

Yokazuna514 said:


> Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho.  What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata.   When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises.  This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan.  In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas.  When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas.   I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.
> 
> There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again  ......


I think the Dai in Shihan Dai is a different word than than in Gekisai Dai. Like here and hear. I could be wrong though; my only Japanese is “dojo Japanese” along with a few phrases my Japanese friends have taught me.

And that’s Arneil’s ONLY falliblity. Superman has kryptonite, Arneil has the origin of Gekisai Sho. At least Arneil’s won’t kill him


----------



## DaveB

Yokazuna514 said:


> Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho.  What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata.   When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises.  This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan.  In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas.  When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas.   I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.
> 
> There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again  ......



The Dai-Sho relationship in kata seems to denote a Primary/Core form (Dai) and a supplementary/expansion form (Sho).

The implication being that the dai form is the source book for the principles and the Sho form shows other ways to embody those ideas.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho.  What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata.   When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises.  This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan.  In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas.  When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas.   I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.
> 
> There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again  ......


Ah I wasn't aware of the use of Shihan Dai!


----------



## _Simon_

DaveB said:


> The Dai-Sho relationship in kata seems to denote a Primary/Core form (Dai) and a supplementary/expansion form (Sho).
> 
> The implication being that the dai form is the source book for the principles and the Sho form shows other ways to embody those ideas.



That is... really cool! Thanks for that DaveB, that explanation makes alot of sense.

Gekisai Sho definitely seems to contain/express the principles of Gekisai Dai, but it actually does seem to be an expansion of it. I'd also like to look at Kanki Dai as compared to Kanku Sho but don't know them well enough.

Never heard of that way of explaining it


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## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Ah I wasn't aware of the use of Shihan Dai!


My former organization used it at 5th dan. 6th dan (and above) was Shihan. My former teacher told me Shihan Dai roughly meant “assistant master.” Kind of like assistant manager. That’s basically what Yokozuna514 was saying, only in a different way. 

Seido used it for a little while. My teacher has a plaque or two with “Shihan Dai Carter” written on it. I asked him about it, and he giggled and said he had 3 different titles without getting promoted while he was a godan. He went from Sensei to Shihan Dai to Kyoshi within a few years. It was during the time guys like Charles Martin and William Oliver were getting higher in rank and Kaicho wanted to differentiate them from the rest. Kaicho settled on Kyoshi for godan and had specific titles tied to specific dan ranks ever since, tying into the conversation we previously had about titles in Seido. 

Edit: Shihan Dai isn’t used anymore in Seido. It was only used for a few years at most.


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## TSDTexan

JR 137 said:


> A very well written and thought out post. I knew most of it beforehand, and calling Gekisai Dai Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata was the short version
> 
> As Simon said (  ) we’re discussing Gekisai Sho, not Gekisai Dai and it’s versions. I’ve seen several versions of Gekisai Dai by Goju and Fukyu by Shorin Ryu. None of which are similar to Gekisai Sho.
> 
> Mas Oyama has created a kata or two - one that I immediately think of is Garyu. He has heavily modified others. Gojushiho has been modified heavily by Oyama and he subsequently named his version Useishi. He heavily modified Seipai and Kanku as well. He’s modified common kyu kata such as Sanchin and Saiha, and slightly modified relatively scarce Yantsu (Shito Ryu) and Tsuki-No (Seigokan Goju Ryu).
> 
> With all of that in mind, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Oyama created Gekisai Sho as what he (and I) feel is a logical next step.
> 
> Kyokushin’s Gekisai Dai is a tweaked Gekisai Dai ichi. Kyokushin’s Gekisai Sho bears no resemblance to Gekisai Dai ni or less common san. The basic formula: counts, pace and embussen are the same; the movements are not, except the gedan brai into kiba dachi in the beginning IMO.
> 
> On face value it would appear to be Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata. Thinking about it for a few minutes - specifically who does it and who doesn’t - and eyebrows get raised. IMO Hanshi Arneil was either misinformed about the kata’s origin or assumed incorrectly. As far as I know, he was the first to write about its origin, and everything afterwards is either a direct cut and paste or copied and changed a few words.




My bad. I totally missed reading the word "sho". I went back... and sure enough... it is there.
Please forgive me for the lengthy and off topic post.

It would only be off topic, if the kata Sho were not created at the same time and place.


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> My former organization used it at 5th dan. 6th dan (and above) was Shihan. My former teacher told me Shihan Dai roughly meant “assistant master.” Kind of like assistant manager. That’s basically what Yokozuna514 was saying, only in a different way.
> 
> Seido used it for a little while. My teacher has a plaque or two with “Shihan Dai Carter” written on it. I asked him about it, and he giggled and said he had 3 different titles without getting promoted while he was a godan. He went from Sensei to Shihan Dai to Kyoshi within a few years. It was during the time guys like Charles Martin and William Oliver were getting higher in rank and Kaicho wanted to differentiate them from the rest. Kaicho settled on Kyoshi for godan and had specific titles tied to specific dan ranks ever since, tying into the conversation we previously had about titles in Seido.
> 
> Edit: Shihan Dai isn’t used anymore in Seido. It was only used for a few years at most.



Ah I see, interesting, didn't know that. And yeah I think Dai must then be a different word altogether than the one used for katas.


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## _Simon_

TSDTexan said:


> My bad. I totally missed reading the word "sho". I went back... and sure enough... it is there.
> Please forgive me for the lengthy and off topic post.
> 
> It would only be off topic, if the kata Sho were not created at the same time and place.


Nah I enjoyed what you wrote, I find interesting not only the history of katas but why they were created, and what principles they're trying to teach the karateka


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## DaveB

Looking at Gekisai Sho, my money is on Oyama as creator:

Mid level side kicks indicate a post war origin.
The long stances are reminiscent of Shotokan which sit in contrast with the Shiko dachi not found in Shotokan kata but common to Goju ryu.
Oyama was fond of cat stance.
The only other place to find a technique combination like that would be Shito ryu, but they were too busy collecting old kata to make up a new one like this.


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## TSDTexan

TSDTexan said:


> My bad. I totally missed reading the word "sho". I went back... and sure enough... it is there.
> Please forgive me for the lengthy and off topic post.
> 
> It would only be off topic, if the kata Sho were not created at the same time and place.


@Flying Crane why the dislike bro?


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## Flying Crane

TSDTexan said:


> @Flying Crane why the dislike bro?


Because you are a jerk and I like stalking you.

Nah, just kidding.  

fat-finger syndrome on a smartphone.  I didn’t even realize I had given the rating, I hit it by accident while scrolling through.

I’ve removed it.


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## JR 137

Flying Crane said:


> Because you are a jerk and I like stalking you.
> 
> Nah, just kidding.
> 
> fat-finger syndrome on a smartphone.  I didn’t even realize I had given the rating, I hit it by accident while scrolling through.
> 
> I’ve removed it.


Should’ve kept it. Just because.


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## VPT

Let me chime in to this conversation too! There's a few things that I'd like to comment about your kata, based on what I know about Southern Chinese styles and t3h iNtErNaL 



_Simon_ said:


> Osu @Yokazuna514, just filmed it how we normally do it. Note the hand movement after the rising koken, this is how we usually do it.
> 
> Oh and also disregard my right foot in sanchin dachi haha, have a sprained ankle so that's how far I could turn it in really XD
> 
> And also whacked the vacuum cleaner on my first mawashi uke haha..
> 
> And keep in mind it's a 4th kyu performance of this kata hehe, we weren't expected to know it at this grade.



I frankly don't like some of the things that are specific to Tensho in Kyokushin. This is not style-bashing, just observations and my own preferences with my own reasoning. Like the mawashi-uke; the trajectory of the hands is too big for proper upper back support. When the elbows stray far enough from the body, you lose the muscular connection to the lats and start to rely on the weaker rotator cuff muscles of the shoulder. This makes the movement inefficient and breaks the structure. If I could choose, I would do it smaller; probably like this.

Another thing is the stance, which is unnecessarily wide and angular. In general the Naha-te way of turning the rear foot in has always baffled me, since you can't find that in China, but I don't have any reason to judge that. Instead, when you want to root and adhere to the ground you need to have inward radial rotation/tension in your legs so that you engage muscular support in your hips (the feeling is on the outside of your hips and in the small gluteal muscles). Pre-turning the whole leg can counteract that (you have already manually turned the leg to its end rotation and can't twist any more) and having your heel further from your hips than your knee makes it especially hard to engage that tension. It actually works way better when the heel and the knee are stacked, but foot is still turned slightly inward. This muscular/structural support/tension is the explanation why you see so much variation in the Wing Chun "goat-squeezing stance". Optimally the leg could stand in an apparently neutral position while having the structure applied internally. The thing that I'm talking about is especially visible in this performance.

Also, the slow version looked better than the fast one. When you are moving very vast, you seem to lose the gamaku support, as well as the hip, knee, ankle and foot structure that support the gamaku. This results in incessant shaking and vibration when you are moving through the kata sequence.



Flying Crane said:


> Thanks.
> It is my belief that it is probably not possible to reverse-engineer an understanding of internal martial arts on a significant level, or on a level comparable to a serious student of the Chinese internal methods, by studying a non-internal art and using that as a vehicle, without significant instruction by a knowledgeable instructor in the internal methods.



The opposite, however, is true. You can take knowledge of movement you learned in an internal art and input that to an external art.



DaveB said:


> Hi Simon,
> White Crane and it's derivatives are not internal martial arts, the stance doesnt support IMA concepts, niether do the movements or strategy.



This is surprising to hear; my experience tells me otherwise. A friend of mine met up with a White Crane teacher of some renown and described his and his students being "as good as the best Taiji that I've come across". And he does Chen with one of the best guys out there. Also, the stuff he brought along from this White Crane guy was very interesting and advanced, to say the least. Which crane exactly you have had experience with? Singing? Feeding?


----------



## _Simon_

VPT said:


> Let me chime in to this conversation too! There's a few things that I'd like to comment about your kata, based on what I know about Southern Chinese styles and t3h iNtErNaL
> 
> 
> 
> I frankly don't like some of the things that are specific to Tensho in Kyokushin. This is not style-bashing, just observations and my own preferences with my own reasoning. Like the mawashi-uke; the trajectory of the hands is too big for proper upper back support. When the elbows stray far enough from the body, you lose the muscular connection to the lats and start to rely on the weaker rotator cuff muscles of the shoulder. This makes the movement inefficient and breaks the structure. If I could choose, I would do it smaller; probably like this.
> 
> Another thing is the stance, which is unnecessarily wide and angular. In general the Naha-te way of turning the rear foot in has always baffled me, since you can't find that in China, but I don't have any reason to judge that. Instead, when you want to root and adhere to the ground you need to have inward radial rotation/tension in your legs so that you engage muscular support in your hips (the feeling is on the outside of your hips and in the small gluteal muscles). Pre-turning the whole leg can counteract that (you have already manually turned the leg to its end rotation and can't twist any more) and having your heel further from your hips than your knee makes it especially hard to engage that tension. It actually works way better when the heel and the knee are stacked, but foot is still turned slightly inward. This muscular/structural support/tension is the explanation why you see so much variation in the Wing Chun "goat-squeezing stance". Optimally the leg could stand in an apparently neutral position while having the structure applied internally. The thing that I'm talking about is especially visible in this performance.
> 
> Also, the slow version looked better than the fast one. When you are moving very vast, you seem to lose the gamaku support, as well as the hip, knee, ankle and foot structure that support the gamaku. This results in incessant shaking and vibration when you are moving through the kata sequence.
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite, however, is true. You can take knowledge of movement you learned in an internal art and input that to an external art.
> 
> 
> 
> This is surprising to hear; my experience tells me otherwise. A friend of mine met up with a White Crane teacher of some renown and described his and his students being "as good as the best Taiji that I've come across". And he does Chen with one of the best guys out there. Also, the stuff he brought along from this White Crane guy was very interesting and advanced, to say the least. Which crane exactly you have had experience with? Singing? Feeding?



Thanks so much VPT, that was incredibly insightful! Appreciate it muchly 

Yep, what you say makes total sense. Stylistic differences aside, I totally get what you mean in relation to mawashi uke and sanchin. Our sanchin was always both feet turned in, but with enough torque/tension to hold one in place, but can see what you mean about being too much at the end range of that rotation. My sanchin dachi may have been a bit awkward anyway due to my ankle injury too.

Admittedly not overly experienced with Tensho, but would you say in terms of losing gamaku support, in this context do you mean connection with my centre? Makes sense that I would lose the connection when doing it fast as I haven't worked too much with that. I guess why I was trying the slower/"internal" version to enhance that.

Vids were great too


----------



## DaveB

VPT said:


> Let me chime in to this conversation too! There's a few things that I'd like to comment about your kata, based on what I know about Southern Chinese styles and t3h iNtErNaL
> 
> 
> 
> I frankly don't like some of the things that are specific to Tensho in Kyokushin. This is not style-bashing, just observations and my own preferences with my own reasoning. Like the mawashi-uke; the trajectory of the hands is too big for proper upper back support. When the elbows stray far enough from the body, you lose the muscular connection to the lats and start to rely on the weaker rotator cuff muscles of the shoulder. This makes the movement inefficient and breaks the structure. If I could choose, I would do it smaller; probably like this.
> 
> Another thing is the stance, which is unnecessarily wide and angular. In general the Naha-te way of turning the rear foot in has always baffled me, since you can't find that in China, but I don't have any reason to judge that. Instead, when you want to root and adhere to the ground you need to have inward radial rotation/tension in your legs so that you engage muscular support in your hips (the feeling is on the outside of your hips and in the small gluteal muscles). Pre-turning the whole leg can counteract that (you have already manually turned the leg to its end rotation and can't twist any more) and having your heel further from your hips than your knee makes it especially hard to engage that tension. It actually works way better when the heel and the knee are stacked, but foot is still turned slightly inward. This muscular/structural support/tension is the explanation why you see so much variation in the Wing Chun "goat-squeezing stance". Optimally the leg could stand in an apparently neutral position while having the structure applied internally. The thing that I'm talking about is especially visible in this performance.
> 
> Also, the slow version looked better than the fast one. When you are moving very vast, you seem to lose the gamaku support, as well as the hip, knee, ankle and foot structure that support the gamaku. This results in incessant shaking and vibration when you are moving through the kata sequence.
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite, however, is true. You can take knowledge of movement you learned in an internal art and input that to an external art.
> 
> 
> 
> This is surprising to hear; my experience tells me otherwise. A friend of mine met up with a White Crane teacher of some renown and described his and his students being "as good as the best Taiji that I've come across". And he does Chen with one of the best guys out there. Also, the stuff he brought along from this White Crane guy was very interesting and advanced, to say the least. Which crane exactly you have had experience with? Singing? Feeding?



I studied tiger-crane combination. In trying to learn more about it i wound up looking into white crane a lot. Its classified as half internal half external. My understanding of pure internal ma is training to conserve momentum which white crane doesn't do. But it does have many soft fluid elements including chisau.


----------



## Flying Crane

DaveB said:


> I studied tiger-crane combination. In trying to learn more about it i wound up looking into white crane a lot. Its classified as half internal half external. My understanding of pure internal ma is training to conserve momentum which white crane doesn't do. But it does have many soft fluid elements including chisau.


What was the source of your tiger-crane?  If it was hung ga, that crane influence is Tibetan, not Fukien.  So, entirely different method.


----------



## Xue Sheng

_Simon_ said:


> Hey guys, I'll preface this by saying I'm not a Chinese martial arts practitioner, nor do i know much about it, nor Taiji, Qi Gong or any of the more internal arts etc, but thought fitting to post and ask here .
> 
> I've been working on Tensho kata (a form in karate), and it's said to be more of an internal kata. I've even gone further and slowed the kata right down, working on focusing on deeply rooted stance, awareness on softening the movements, expansion (opening up the body) and compression (rooting down, sinking heaviness in body), grounding, my centre and breathing. And the feeling of being pulled down into the earth if that makes sense.
> 
> I was wondering if you guys who practice Taiji or Qi Gong etc have any advice on how to work more on these aspects, or what to focus on moreso. I realise that may be a big ask, and of course performing this with an instructor is optimal, I was just wondering what perspective you may have on this kata, and also whether it resembles any forms you know?
> 
> "Tensho" is a Goju ryu kata which means "revolving hands", "rotating palms", or "turning palms." There are different versions of it around, some with harder ibuki breathing too. I also learned it with pushing the hand out in front of you after the raising of the wrist part, but have seen versions which lower the hand back down towards the ground which tends to feel better. I've seen a few technical things I need to work on already, but it's usually a pretty advanced form in most karate styles that practice it, so I definitely consider myself an amateur at it.
> 
> I filmed it today in this slower style:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very funnily, at the very end of the kata the phone fell off the ledge it was sitting on, perhaps I DID perform it right after all! XD
> 
> Thanks guys, any thoughts would be great



Not internal, but it could be. Frankly I think Wing Chun Siu Lum Tao, done right, is very internal, why not this. When I use to do it I did it more like a Qigong

1) internal, external does not really matter, train right, internal goes to external and external goes to internal

2) Power comes from the root (feet) is directed by the waist and, in this case, goes to your hands. Use the entire body (feel every movement it in your entire body) and how they parts link together, upper and lower must be unified

3) breath, no pattern, just breath naturally

4) Yi, Qi, Li (Mind [Yi] controls Energy (Qi), Energy (Qi) controls muscle [Li])

5) Qi, it is nothing more than the energy that we have in our body that keeps us moving. It is not some mystical force or magical energy. Strong Qi you are healthy, Weak Qi you are sick, No Qi you are dead.

6) Sung - relaxed but not to relaxed, never hard


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## _Simon_

Xue Sheng said:


> Not internal, but it could be. Frankly I think Wing Chun Siu Lum Tao, done right, is very internal, why not this. When I use to do it I did it more like a Qigong
> 
> 1) internal, external does not really matter, train right, internal goes to external and external goes to internal
> 
> 2) Power comes from the root (feet) is directed by the waist and, in this case, goes to your hands. Use the entire body (feel every movement it in your entire body) and how they parts link together, upper and lower must be unified
> 
> 3) breath, no pattern, just breath naturally
> 
> 4) Yi, Qi, Li (Mind [Yi] controls Energy (Qi), Energy (Qi) controls muscle [Li])
> 
> 5) Qi, it is nothing more than the energy that we have in our body that keeps us moving. It is not some mystical force or magical energy. Strong Qi you are healthy, Weak Qi you are sick, No Qi you are dead.
> 
> 6) Sung - relaxed but not to relaxed, never hard



Wow, thanks so much Xue that was incredibly helpful!! Will work to maybe focus on each point you made at a time.

Everything you said clicked with me. Especially liked the upper and lower being unified, feeling every movement in your entire body, not forcing breath at certain times per se, but keeping it natural, and be relaxed but not too relaxed...

Thanks a bunch


----------



## DaveB

Flying Crane said:


> What was the source of your tiger-crane?  If it was hung ga, that crane influence is Tibetan, not Fukien.  So, entirely different method.


It is a fujianese method.

Fujian white crane plus fujian Tai Chor apparently.


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## _Simon_

Did some training tonight at home, and have made it a practice to finish with Tensho, recently with the lights off and eyes closed!

Tonight it actually felt really different performing it, eyes were closed and it felt so much more fluid and alive. I didn't concentrate so much on technique but more on feeling, and I had my focus not on anything or motion specifically, but kept it more peripheral.

Even in the seemingly isolated arm movements it felt like my whole body was consciously active or moving to support it, even though it wasn't moving a great deal! Really hard to explain, but just felt more unified, and like every motion was a way of relating to and reflecting the whole.. if that makes sense.

Very cool!


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## Xue Sheng

_Simon_ said:


> Did some training tonight at home, and have made it a practice to finish with Tensho, recently with the lights off and eyes closed!
> 
> Tonight it actually felt really different performing it, eyes were closed and it felt so much more fluid and alive. I didn't concentrate so much on technique but more on feeling, and I had my focus not on anything or motion specifically, but kept it more peripheral.
> 
> Even in the seemingly isolated arm movements it felt like my whole body was consciously active or moving to support it, even though it wasn't moving a great deal! Really hard to explain, but just felt more unified, and like every motion was a way of relating to and reflecting the whole.. if that makes sense.
> 
> Very cool!



Now go try it outside, in the dark, on uneven ground.


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Did some training tonight at home, and have made it a practice to finish with Tensho, recently with the lights off and eyes closed!
> 
> Tonight it actually felt really different performing it, eyes were closed and it felt so much more fluid and alive. I didn't concentrate so much on technique but more on feeling, and I had my focus not on anything or motion specifically, but kept it more peripheral.
> 
> Even in the seemingly isolated arm movements it felt like my whole body was consciously active or moving to support it, even though it wasn't moving a great deal! Really hard to explain, but just felt more unified, and like every motion was a way of relating to and reflecting the whole.. if that makes sense.
> 
> Very cool!


Thanks for sharing, Simon.  How goes the search for a new place to train ?


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## _Simon_

Xue Sheng said:


> Now go try it outside, in the dark, on uneven ground.


Hahaha awesome, I think I may XD


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## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Thanks for sharing, Simon.  How goes the search for a new place to train ?


No probs!

Ahh.. I wish I could say going well, just alot of setbacks that makes it very difficult... last 3 months I just kept getting quite sick, immune system was just shot so been recovering from constant infections and colds.

And a pretty severe sacroiliac joint pain issue has halted alot... seeing an osteopath which is helping, so my main focus at the moment is getting well again, and then finding a new dojo/home to train in. As disheartened and discouraged as I've been emotionally... I still am so very keen to train again...

Thanks for asking bud


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> No probs!
> 
> Ahh.. I wish I could say going well, just alot of setbacks that makes it very difficult... last 3 months I just kept getting quite sick, immune system was just shot so been recovering from constant infections and colds.
> 
> And a pretty severe sacroiliac joint pain issue has halted alot... seeing an osteopath which is helping, so my main focus at the moment is getting well again, and then finding a new dojo/home to train in. As disheartened and discouraged as I've been emotionally... I still am so very keen to train again...
> 
> Thanks for asking bud


Sorry to hear Simon.  Seems like a long time to be saddled with infections and colds.   Have you been to the doctor ?

Sacroiliac joint pain is also not a lot of fun.  I used to have a lot of problems with my sacrum getting misaligned.   I saw an osteopath religiously until one of them told me that I will continue to have this problem is I do not work on my core and stretch after workouts.   Knock on wood, it's been 3 years since my last bout.

Get well soon, Simon.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokozuna514 said:


> Sorry to hear Simon.  Seems like a long time to be saddled with infections and colds.   Have you been to the doctor ?
> 
> Sacroiliac joint pain is also not a lot of fun.  I used to have a lot of problems with my sacrum getting misaligned.   I saw an osteopath religiously until one of them told me that I will continue to have this problem is I do not work on my core and stretch after workouts.   Knock on wood, it's been 3 years since my last bout.
> 
> Get well soon, Simon.



Yeah it's been relentless... yeah went to the docs twice, he seems to think the first lot of antibiotics may not have gotten some strains, so tried a different one. Not a big fan of the medical model sometimes... but in my kinesiology appointment she picked up that my immune system was just struggling, related to not being very grounded, lots of anxiety/stress etc, hence why I just kept getting sick. So been honing in on that alot, slowing down, breathing, grounding exercises etc.

Oh really youch... yeah it's not fun... it's definitely improving, I imagine it's related to this period, alot of stuff has just locked up in there and tensed up, irritated disc.. and I'm sure my pelvic condition would have some relation too. Glutes and lower back craaaaaazy tight....

Ah that's helpful, yes something I neglected for many many years, definitely have now increased my focus on flexibility, mobility etc

And thanks so much appreciate it


----------

