# Is there any place in MMA for Tai Chi?



## Makalakumu (Sep 11, 2009)

If so, where?  Why?  Or why not?


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## Tez3 (Sep 11, 2009)

I don't know very much about Tai Chi at all so wouldn't want to make any comment but I do know a man who does and has studied in China so will ask him when he gets back from Malaysia and Thailand where he's exploring martial arts.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 11, 2009)

That would be really interesting, Irene.  I would very much like to know if there was anyone out there who was practicing Tai Chi for its martial aspect and was applying it in MMA somehow.  One of my old teachers talked about doing this, but then we lost touch.  This was back in...1998, so MMA was just starting to catch on in the Mid-West United States.


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## Tez3 (Sep 11, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> That would be really interesting, Irene. I would very much like to know if there was anyone out there who was practicing Tai Chi for its martial aspect and was applying it in MMA somehow. One of my old teachers talked about doing this, but then we lost touch. This was back in...1998, so MMA was just starting to catch on in the Mid-West United States.


 
The little I know I don't see why there shouldn't be applications that could be used, there's far more to it than little old people exercising in the park. My brain is slow this morning I've been on nights because I've remembered just the right person you can email, he's CMA and an MMA fighter, really nice guy. His website is entertaining as his brother Huseyin is a website designer.
www.samiberik.com

there's a contact bit on it, he knows me as Tez from Pride & Glory. His website is cool and he'd prefer me giving that out to his email. His sister fights too.


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## K-man (Sep 11, 2009)

I have some of Erle Montaigue's DVDs and one of his Dim Mak books. I would love to see someone of his calibre take on the MMA dudes but the thing is he trains for real, not for sport. Think what you like about Tai Chi, but some of the practitioners are very capable. IMO, under normal circumstances even the best Tai Chi exponent would not be in the contest in the ring because, even if he was trained in Dim Mak, he could not exercise his options, even though technically he may be the better fighter. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQkMa9rcR6c&feature=related

Interesting question. I look forward to reading other peoples responses.:asian:


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Sep 11, 2009)

I think you are talking about competition in the cage.

 Most Taiji players practice for health. The small amount that do practice martial application are not concern with cage fighting but there is always someone who goes against the grain.

Chen Xiaowang spoke about Sanda and Chen players having to adjust to the rules he spoke about Chen kids practicing Sanda. All the stand up applications are there to make Taiji a very effective art some of the principles can be and have similar principles to BJJ which can be used in grappling on the ground. It is doubtful Taiji could take on a grappler or BJJ practicer in grappling on the ground however a Taiji practicer who practices push hands in addition to BJJ would be a great practicer.

If someone followed the theories of Taiji such as sticking,listening,following,balance,yielding,redirecting and so on they could be a very good fighter.
Here is Chen Bing to help illustrate some of the points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u25XHzlZu9Q&feature=related


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 11, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> If so, where? Why? Or why not?


 
The few real taiji players that I have talked to that have gone and tried MMA thought it was great and said the same thing; the MMA guys have a real problem over coming rooting and relaxation. But that is really nothing new I have spared multiple style and work applications with other styles and many have a real problem if you stay relaxed and overcoming a strong root. The relaxation part tends to be more of a problem from what I have experienced, but I have not spared an MMA people either. 

However they have also said it was a blast training MMA and they felt that the MMA guys learned better how to deal with rooting and a relaxed opponent while they, taiji people, got a better view of how to deal with force (really powerful force) coming directly at them and worked on training all of that taiji stuff on the ground. You don't get many (if any) chance to spar in the average taiji class these days and they found the MMA training pretty cool. It has made me consider going to give it a try more than once.

I think that MMA, could benefit from taiji in a few areas and I have even talked with a MMA guy that trained Qigong. He felt it help him relax during a match and from his POV anything was good that could help him win.

You could get the same benefit from taiji as well but that sort of thing takes time, as it does with qigong, and most MMA people need things to work a bit quicker. 

But with that said I have absolutely no doubt that the average taiji person would get messed up pretty good in MMA since the majority do train only for health and many of those do not even know it is (or was) a martial art


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## Steve (Sep 11, 2009)

It seems like there's a guy here in Seattle who combines Tai Chi, BJJ and gung fu.  I can't find his site again...  I'll look for it if I get a few moments.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 11, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> That would be really interesting, Irene. I would very much like to know if there was anyone out there who was practicing Tai Chi for its martial aspect and was applying it in MMA somehow. One of my old teachers talked about doing this, but then we lost touch. This was back in...1998, so MMA was just starting to catch on in the Mid-West United States.


 
I have thought about giving it a try on a few occasions myself and I think coming form taiji you could learn a lot particularly as that applies to absorbing and redirecting force, use of fajing and rooting. But I would not suggest taking taiji to MMA until you were VERY comfortable with taiji, IMO, minimum of 6 years of good training. 



K-man said:


> I have some of Erle Montaigue's DVDs and one of his Dim Mak books. I would love to see someone of his calibre take on the MMA dudes but the thing is he trains for real, not for sport. Think what you like about Tai Chi, but some of the practitioners are very capable. IMO, under normal circumstances even the best Tai Chi exponent would not be in the contest in the ring because, even if he was trained in Dim Mak, he could not exercise his options, even though technically he may be the better fighter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQkMa9rcR6c&feature=related
> 
> Interesting question. I look forward to reading other peoples responses.


 

I tend not to agree with or listen to Erle much but Erle aside

My sifu has trained taiji for over 50 years and was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and his approach, I can only assume would be similar to mine, sense he trained me. Dim Mak has nothing to do with it and is not necessary and only goes back to the argument that we are just to deadly to fight in a sporting venue  which is, IMO, a load of hogwash and just avoiding the fact that ones kung fu just might be no good. 

You need great patients to make this work right and my sifu has greater patients than I. You absorb, redirect you maintain control and wait for the other guy to make a mistake (and if you stay in control he will) and take advantage of that and in the case of am MMA ring that would mean using Fajing and the 13 posters to attack (take downs and strikes) and defend. However some of those would need to be changed due to the Qinna but it could be done rather easily if you have chosen to jump in the ring and fight the MMA game. On the street Qinna would be used. But the only thing I see as issue are the gloves, we dont train with them at all and I am not sure how I could apply what I know wearing them. But then compared to my sifu I am rather low level so someone with his skill might have no problem. 




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I think you are talking about competition in the cage
> Most Taiji players practice for health. The small amount that do practice martial application are not concern with cage fighting but there is always someone who goes against the grain.
> 
> Chen Xiaowang spoke about Sanda and Chen players having to adjust to the rules he spoke about Chen kids practicing Sanda. All the stand up applications are there to make Taiji a very effective art some of the principles can be and have similar principles to BJJ which can be used in grappling on the ground. It is doubtful Taiji could take on a grappler or BJJ practicer in grappling on the ground however a Taiji practicer who practices push hands in addition to BJJ would be a great practicer.
> ...


 
Chen Xiaowang also said that as far as he is concerned taiji is dead as a martial art. Not that it isnt a martial art but that there are so many out there training it that have no understanding of the martial arts of it as compared to those that do that it will soon die out. So I am not surprised he is now pushing Sanda which is not taiji and now that the government wants to make Chen village the next Shaolin I am less surprised at the Sanda coming into Chen. To be honest this is rather sad to me but then not to long ago Chen village changed its tuishou rules so those that were not as good at fighting could win once and a while so

As to grappling standing up of laying down the principals of taiji are the same. But I do not disagree; I am not sure how well I would do on the ground against a grappler. But then the few real taiji guys I have talked to that went off to try MMA said grapplers had a real hard time getting them on the ground.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Sep 11, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Chen Xiaowang also said that as far as he is concerned taiji is dead as a martial art. Not that it isnt a martial art but that there are so many out there training it that have no understanding of the martial arts of it as compared to those that do that it will soon die out. So I am not surprised he is now pushing Sanda which is not taiji and now that the government wants to make Chen village the next Shaolin I am less surprised at the Sanda coming into Chen. To be honest this is rather sad to me but then not to long ago Chen village changed its tuishou rules so those that were not as good at fighting could win once and a while so
> 
> As to grappling standing up of laying down the principals of taiji are the same. But I do not disagree; I am not sure how well I would do on the ground against a grappler. But then the few real taiji guys I have talked to that went off to try MMA said grapplers had a real hard time getting them on the ground.


 I agree


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## blindsage (Sep 11, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> It seems like there's a guy here in Seattle who combines Tai Chi, BJJ and gung fu. I can't find his site again... I'll look for it if I get a few moments.


 
You wouldn't be talking about Jake Burroughs would you?
http://www.threeharmonies.com/

He does a combination of Northern Mantis, Xingyiquan, and BJJ, with some Sun style Taiji and Bagua.

Taiji does have the capability of competing, but the number of people with the proper skill level _and _proper training for the ring are practically non-existent.


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## Laoshi77 (Sep 15, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> But then the few real taiji guys I have talked to that went off to try MMA said grapplers had a real hard time getting them on the ground.


 
Interesting point. If grappling presupposes takedowns then in my opinion it plays into the hands of 'real' Taijiquan. A good Taiji person is well-versed in takedown defence!
As we know Taijiquan also is keen to floor the opponent quickly, if you understand these principlese there is little difference.

I used to train Judo and some of my friends still do yet they have no chance of taking me down (I see BJJ as no different).


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## JDenver (Sep 15, 2009)

blindsage said:


> Taiji does have the capability of competing, but the number of people with the proper skill level _and _proper training for the ring are practically non-existent.



Proper skill, proper training, and I'll add, the INTEREST to compete.  That's gotta reduce it down to almost zilch.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 15, 2009)

JDenver said:


> Proper skill, proper training, and I'll add, the INTEREST to compete. That's gotta reduce it down to almost zilch.


 
I think that might be an over estimation 

I truly do not know of any high level Taiji person that could compete at that level that would. Going to train with MMA people I do believe could help one taiji, but jumping into the ring and competing is an entirely different story. Although you might get the likes of Chen Bing to do it but then as previously stated he may use Sanda and not Taiji in an MMA ring.

Sadly many of the guys that have high level MA skills in Taiji are in their 60s and older and a lot of them do not have any students that have the slightest interest in the MA of Taiji so that level of skill will likely die with them. 

Chen Xiaowang (one of the guys with the skill), IMO, was correct


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## Phoenix44 (Sep 17, 2009)

Now there's an interesting question.  I'm learning tai chi for, among many reasons, martial application.  And yes, I apply the principles, and sometimes even the techniques, when I train in hard styles.  It makes me a better martial artist.

Admittedly, I don't always do it well, but I try.


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