# How Well...



## MJS (Apr 14, 2010)

do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?

This question was sparked by something that I read on another forum.


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## Haakon (Apr 14, 2010)

What kind of ring fighting? I'd think that UFC style ring fighting would prepare someone quite a better than Olympic TKD ring fighting. Boxing would probably be pretty good too, you'd learn how to give an take a hit. Even highschool or college wrestling would probably serve someone pretty well since you'd be competing against someone all out, no holding back (within the rules), that is going to be a lot better than non contact sparing would.

How well is 'prepared'? How do you score 'prepared'? Is a Navy SEAL 100% prepared, the stereotypical nerd 0%, non contact sparing 20%, boxing 50%, UFC 70%? Just throwing those out there, of course I have no way of backing up those numbers, just a SWAG.

Should be an interesting thread.


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## Deaf Smith (Apr 14, 2010)

For the actual fight, that is once the fist start flying, I feel it helps alot.

BUT, there is alot more to a fight than the fight. It's what led up to the fight that matters more.

If you fail to see the indicators an assault is going to happen.... 

If you fail to keep them at a distance...

If you fail to take into account the other guy may sucker punch you...

If you fail to see his friend about to blind side you...

If you fail to see that gun/knife/club/chain....

Well if you fail any of those (and other things) then it don't matter what your training was at fighting cause you lost the fight before it started.

Deaf


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## seasoned (Apr 14, 2010)

MJS said:


> do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?
> 
> This question was sparked by something that I read on another forum.


I think it is better then nothing. I have known some people in traditional martial arts over the years that thought they were ready (prepared) And found out that the mean streets were just that. You just never know until that time comes.


Haakon said:


> What kind of ring fighting? I'd think that UFC style ring fighting would prepare someone quite a better than Olympic TKD ring fighting. Boxing would probably be pretty good too, you'd learn how to give an take a hit. Even highschool or college wrestling would probably serve someone pretty well since you'd be competing against someone all out, no holding back (within the rules), that is going to be a lot better than non contact sparing would.
> 
> How well is 'prepared'? How do you score 'prepared'? Is a Navy SEAL 100% prepared, the stereotypical nerd 0%, non contact sparing 20%, boxing 50%, UFC 70%? Just throwing those out there, of course I have no way of backing up those numbers, just a SWAG.
> 
> Should be an interesting thread.


Very good points.


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## MJS (Apr 14, 2010)

Haakon said:


> What kind of ring fighting? I'd think that UFC style ring fighting would prepare someone quite a better than Olympic TKD ring fighting. Boxing would probably be pretty good too, you'd learn how to give an take a hit. Even highschool or college wrestling would probably serve someone pretty well since you'd be competing against someone all out, no holding back (within the rules), that is going to be a lot better than non contact sparing would.


 
My apologies for being vauge.  Yes, I was talking about UFC/MMA style fighting.



> How well is 'prepared'? How do you score 'prepared'? Is a Navy SEAL 100% prepared, the stereotypical nerd 0%, non contact sparing 20%, boxing 50%, UFC 70%? Just throwing those out there, of course I have no way of backing up those numbers, just a SWAG.


 
Prepared...well, I suppose that'll vary from person to person.  For the sake of the thread, lets say that it means that you'll be able to survive an encounter in the real world.  The person who made the comment in question, in his opinion, feels that if you're fighting MMA style, that it will prepare you better than someone that trains in a more traditional art.  For the sake of the thread, we'll say that traditional falls into the category of Karate, TKD, Ninjutsu, etc.



> Should be an interesting thread.


 
I hope so.


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## searcher (Apr 14, 2010)

I would say that it prepares you to get hit, fight where you feel most comfortable, breathe under pressure, and not lose your cool while in the mix.


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## MJS (Apr 14, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> For the actual fight, that is once the fist start flying, I feel it helps alot.
> 
> BUT, there is alot more to a fight than the fight. It's what led up to the fight that matters more.
> 
> ...


 
Good points.  IMO, I would say that there are things that ring fighting would help you with and things that it would not, going off of the list that you provided. 



seasoned said:


> I think it is better then nothing. I have known some people in traditional martial arts over the years that thought they were ready (prepared) And found out the the mean streets were just that. You just never know until that time comes.


 
Agreed.  IMO, there is alot of garbage out there, thats being passed off, as things that're effective, when in reality, those things'll be likely to get the person doing them, hurt or killed.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 16, 2010)

It's an edge...how much depends on the details.

1. Ring experience and conditioning helps maximize your physical attributes. Together your attributes and conditioning affect your potential.

2. Ring experience helps overcome your fear of contact. This is critical to facing the adrenal load.

3. The more tested, trained, automatic techniques in your repertoire, the better you'll respond given the adrenaline flood.

4. Does your training include bridging to weapons, something that is usually a different planet from ring work...and may be decisive.

I agree with Deaf's comments above about where you are if you are so flat-footed that you didn't see anything coming.


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## blindsage (Apr 16, 2010)

Too many assumptions to have to make to answer this question. How you train is what matters, not the system or style. 

I've been punched in the face training with a Wing Chun sifu, does that not count as learning how to take a hit or practicing under pressure just because it's 'traditional'? 

During medium contact sparring I've had a female Kajukenbo instructor half my size (literally) toe kick me in the kidney with a kick I never saw coming, is that not 'real' preparation for SD because it's not MMA? 

My school regularly works on mulitple attacker scenarios, is that not good for SD because the style is 'traditional' and not we're not slugging it out in the ring when we do it?


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## Draven (Apr 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?


 
Thats not an easy question to answer, remember there are different types of violence, for social violence any kind of contact fighting sport will prepare you to apply those techniques against another human being especially since social violence is a competition of sorts. Now criminal or asocial/combative violence thats a different story...


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## BLACK LION (Apr 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?
> 
> This question was sparked by something that I read on another forum.


 
The short and sour answer is.... NO!


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## BLACK LION (Apr 16, 2010)

The question IS easy to answer...  I have to swallow my ego, pride and ignorance so I can be ultimately honest with myself.  

If I am trained to compete in the ring in a sanctioned , convwentional manner then I am not the wild animal that I need to be to face a threat willing to do whatever it takes to put me down... It is not about him trying to win but them having predatory dominance over thier perceived prey... 
If you I not train unconventionally and asymetrically to be as unfair as possible and likewise train to maintain predatory dominance over any would be threats then I am not repared to face the acutality that is seeping around in the shadows out there.  I would be grossly unprepared and lacking necessary tools to end it the way it needs to be ended.   

Destiny favors choice, not chance so leave nothing to uncertainty or coincidence... You do not have to risk your life in order to fight for it especially if you are prepared to face the worst of the worst.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?
> 
> This question was sparked by something that I read on another forum.


 
** Posting a reply before reading what others have posted, so I apologize if redundant. **

No. It does not. 


Now, does the cardio carry over to your self defense? Yes. 

Can a technique be translated to the real world? Yes. 

But directly preparing for the Rules of the Ring means you are preparing to operate/spare/"fight" by a known set of rules, so those rules limit your options and mind set.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 16, 2010)

Great thread MJS!

Cardio, attributes, the ability to take and deliver contact and more is just some of what ring sports can give you.  Could this be an edge in a violent encounter?  Certainly!  However, none of the violence I have ever been involved with through work of course was ever like when I had been in a martial related match.  No, in general it was quicker, more sudden and violent without the time to prepare, etc.  So the answer is possibly a yes or maybe a no as in that particular moment it will come down to the individual and their ability to take care of business and make their skill sets work!


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## Chris Parker (Apr 17, 2010)

Hi,

This is really not an easy question to answer, I'm afraid Black Lion. While I appreciate the answer you gave, you missed a major part of the question, which MJS cunningly hid in the thread title. The full question is "How well do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?" And that opens itself up to many other questions, most obviously "what kind of confrontation?"

But before I get to that, I would like to cover a little more ground first. We have established that what we are talking about is MMA-style ring fighting (I'm noting that this is distinct from the training itself, but I feel that the two go together... after all, someone is not likely to enter an MMA bout without having some training in preparation, so I'll mention that as well), so we'll examine that a bit first.

When it comes to MMA-style competition, there are some very substancial differences between it and a real violent encounter, leading to very different training methods, and both having very different aims. That obviously then leads to certain approaches, strategies, and tactics that are geared up towards success in the ring, rather than in a self defence situation. This, of course, doesn't mean that they cannot work in an SD situation, just that that is not what they are geared for.

These include, but are not limited to, working within a specific rule-set (which can train you to miss certain openings, or look for inappropriate actions/techniques), training for long engagements (multiple rounds, which can lead to an expectation of having time to establish rhythms,, wear someone down etc, with the focus of a single opponent), looking for "scoring" techniques (knockouts, submissions, point-scoring kicks and strikes, lending to the tactic of wanting to stay engaged in a situation, rather than looking for the option of an escape), and the obvious expectation of a single opponent, well trained in a similar skill set to the one you have trained in and are using, with the opponent similarly limited.

The more the training is geared towards competition, the further away from self defence it will be. The techniques may be able to be utilised, but the training will dictate the response you experience under pressure. And, while the techniques may indeed be highly effective, the tactics may be not ideal, and could limit the effectiveness of the techniques themselves.

To show what I mean by that, we'll go through the way both an MMA fight happens, and a violent assault (in this case, just a random drunken situation at a bar).

An MMA fight and a SD encounter have very different timetables. The timetable for MMA involves a period of time general preparation (regular training in a range of skills suited to the environment expected, a competitve encounter with specific rules and expected technical considerations), and then a period of specific preparation (usually geared towards a certain known opponent, who's approach, tactics, methods, and preferences can be studied and prepared for). When it comes to the fight itself, the timing is pre-determined (you know when it will start, and where, and against who), and you usually get a certain amount of time for the pre-fight (during which you can mentally and emotionally prepare, as well as physically, and could be half an hour or more), then the fight itself, which is typically also determined in length (say, 3 x 5 minute rounds), and then there is a managed post-fight (with the physical and mental aspects often managed by people around you). Finally, there is the ability to then rest, taking time off training, as you will know if you have another fight coming up, and when it is, so you can determine how long to take off.

An SD encounter, on the other hand, if we assume training (hey, it is a martial arts forum....), then there is any amount of time for general preparation (ideally covering far greater range than the limited aspects of any competitive system, including escape tactics and more), which could be anything from a few minutes to years, or decades. Specialist preparation is usually no more than you simply seeing the guy get angry, or maybe noticing a few pre-fight triggers (if you are lucky...), and that obviously also covers the pre-fight. The duration of the encounter is unknown, as are a large number of other aspects, such as number of people, weapons, aspects of the environment (unless you are there very frequently), and more. And the post fight is rarely managed in any way, you may be injured, you will certainly experience the drain of the post-adrenal dump, during which it is entirely possible that you will be attacked again. And as you never really know when this could happen, you should prepare for it again as soon as you are healed enough to.

And the question of what type of encounter you will experience still needs to be addressed. All we have is "a confrontation in the real world", which could be anything from the aforementioned drunken assault, through to a mugging, through to road rage, to an attempted rape, to simple raised tempers which can be verbally defused. Each of these require a different responce, and with some of them the hardwired MMA response is, well, irresponsible. The need to stay and engage is not advised, knocking out someone who is yelling but not attacking (if they don't show signs of escalating) can be assault, a mugging, particularly if weapons or groups are involved, can be handled by complying, which can be the smarter way to go (let go of ego there...).

Physically, an MMA-style experience, if the base of your understanding of a fight, will lead you to expect a much bigger opening distance than you will often encounter in an assault, as well as only expecting a single opponent with no weapons (at the least unconsciously, as that will be what you will have taught yourself to expect). So you may think that it is not really helpful at all. However, it has a number of things going for it. Many have already mentioned the experience of being able to give and recieve a hit, and this really shouldn't be underestimated, however there is a far more powerful preparation that MMA gives you. Confidence in a physically violent encounter. 

One of the big advantages a street predator has is that they are often experienced in hurting people, or at least having people scared of them, and that gives them the confidence to "ply their trade", as it were. So one of the best ways to be prepared to handle such an encounter is simply to be confident in your own abilities to handle it, and the constant testing of technique and ability in the ring that MMA competitors go through instills that confidence, often in spades. So although the tactics are not ideal, and the techniques may in some situations be ill-advised, the confidence in self that it supplies cannot be discounted. And in that regard it can help prepare you for a real world confrontation very well. Just try to make sure that you don't overstep the situation as required...

Phew, that was a long one....


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## MattJ (Apr 17, 2010)

> do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?


 
Nothing can prepare you for a "real world" confrontation. No class, no style. MMA style training can _help_, like other things (RBSD, etc) can. The best you can do is simulate, and some things will simulate certain elements better than others will. MMA is great for getting one used to physical demands (mechanical accuracy, getting hit, etc), and RBSD is good for others (pre-fight awareness, non-competition tactics, etc). 

Neither one is complete or better than the other. Just different.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 17, 2010)

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd entirely agree with that. I would say that there is nothing that will give you the experience except for the experience itself, but to say nothing prepares you is a little incorrect. That's like saying that all that study doesn't prepare you to be a doctor. So they do prepare you, but the question asked was "How well?" Think of it more like Army boot camp in terms of preparation, it's not exactly the same as being in a warzone, but it is preparation for what you will encounter.


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## MattJ (Apr 17, 2010)

> but the question asked was "How well"


 
No, it wasn't. I quoted the question verbatim in my response.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 17, 2010)

No, I am afraid you quoted the opening post verbatim. The first part of the question is the title of the thread. MJS was being sneaky.... That's why it starts with a lower-case "d" for "do". So the entire question as posed is (Thread title) "How well...." (opening post) "do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?"


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## MattJ (Apr 17, 2010)

LOL, I did indeed miss that. I stand corrected. That doesn't materially change my answer, though. Any type of training is only a simulation, and some are better in some aspects than others.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 17, 2010)

Oh, agreed. I just disagree that simulation is not preparation. After all, preparing is getting you ready for the experience, it is not meant to be the experience itself.


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## 5rings (Apr 17, 2010)

_NO..._
Sadly it does not contribute greatly towards preparing a sound Defense in the real world. Time is better spent sharping skills that deal with multiple attackers, edge weapon defense, over coming personal fears & use of force etc. _Remember its your time & your life....live it intelligently!_
_Always try to think outside the Traditional box_


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 17, 2010)

MJS said:


> do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?
> 
> This question was sparked by something that I read on another forum.


 
The Gladiator slaves previously fighting in the arena did pretty well against Roman Soldiers during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Servile wars, even if they ultimately lost by shear virtue of being outnumbered and poorly supplied......they managed to kill a whole lot of Roman soldiers who were 'trained for the street' with the skills they learned in the 'ring'.

A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. The difference is mindset, but that's a double edged sword too. Someone used to getting punched won't freeze up when confronted with a punch, even if he's used to getting punched in the ring. I've heard arguments from both sides, but there seems to be a lot of peeing in the wind on the matter.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 17, 2010)

Haakon said:


> What kind of ring fighting? I'd think that UFC style ring fighting would prepare someone quite a better than Olympic TKD ring fighting. Boxing would probably be pretty good too, you'd learn how to give an take a hit. Even highschool or college wrestling would probably serve someone pretty well since you'd be competing against someone all out, no holding back (within the rules), that is going to be a lot better than non contact sparing would.
> 
> How well is 'prepared'? How do you score 'prepared'? Is a Navy SEAL 100% prepared, the stereotypical nerd 0%, non contact sparing 20%, boxing 50%, UFC 70%? Just throwing those out there, of course I have no way of backing up those numbers, just a SWAG.
> 
> Should be an interesting thread.



Good points........and in a hand to hand fight most Navy Seals would get their heads handed to them by an average MMA practioner........Seals are jack of all trades.  Put a gun in his hand, it's a different outcome.

That is the only reason that someone who solely does MMA isn't as effective in the street.......the element of weapons and the mindset that needs to accompany dealing with surprise violence, versus a competition........but some folks erroenously believe that the kind of aggressive personality who engages in male hiearchial aggression is somehow inferior to some guy doing TMA or RBSD in a hand to hand fight........the reality is that the TMA guy or RBSD guy is desperately trying to learn skills to offset the natural advantage of the kind of aggressive individuals that enjoy engaging in male hiearchial aggression.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 17, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> For the actual fight, that is once the fist start flying, I feel it helps alot.
> 
> BUT, there is alot more to a fight than the fight. It's what led up to the fight that matters more.
> 
> ...


 All quite true.

At the same time, much of that is about reading others and controlling distance.........which is best learned by actually engaging in fighting where someone is trying to hurt you.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 17, 2010)

MJS said:


> Prepared...well, I suppose that'll vary from person to person. For the sake of the thread, lets say that it means that you'll be able to survive an encounter in the real world. The person who made the comment in question, in his opinion, feels that if you're fighting MMA style, that it will prepare you better than someone that trains in a more traditional art. For the sake of the thread, we'll say that traditional falls into the category of Karate, TKD, Ninjutsu, etc.


 Oh yes, far better.........A blend of wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ, with a sprinkling of a few other things is far superior in a physical confrontation than many pure traditional arts.

What we're really talking about is someones pure form versus a buffet where one takes what they want, and leaves the rest.........for street purposes we're not talking about MMA/UFC the sport, we're talking about applying JKD-esque eccletic blends together, as opposed to traditional purity.



Anyone who trains what works best for them, rather than someone else's 'way' is going to be better prepared.


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## Brian King (Apr 18, 2010)

Now and then events in the ring can give a person the sense of some of the chaos that that a brawl presents, take tonights MMA show aired on national television as a tiny example. 



 
Regards
Brian King


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 18, 2010)

Brian said:


> Now and then events in the ring can give a person the sense of some of the chaos that that a brawl presents, take tonights MMA show aired on national television as a tiny example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hey Brian,

That was interesting to watch it unfold.


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## Brian King (Apr 18, 2010)

> Hey Brian,
> 
> That was interesting to watch it unfold.


 
I was not able to watch it live which would have been nice to get a feel for the energy of the room but agree it was interesting to watch the clip Brian.


The body language (of the guy being interviewed after winning his fight) screamed that it was on. LOL saw that look-head tilt thing many times while working the door. The crowd getting in their free licks is also typical. Didnt see anyone knocked out or submitted but did see some entanglements, head controls and the general grab a limb and hang on typical aftermath of these kind of educational beatdowns/brawls

Regards
Brian King


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## 5rings (Apr 18, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The Gladiator slaves previously fighting in the arena did pretty well against Roman Soldiers during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Servile wars, even if they ultimately lost by shear virtue of being outnumbered and poorly supplied......they managed to kill a whole lot of Roman soldiers who were 'trained for the street' with the skills they learned in the 'ring'.
> 
> A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. The difference is mindset, but that's a double edged sword too. Someone used to getting punched won't freeze up when confronted with a punch, even if he's used to getting punched in the ring. I've heard arguments from both sides, but there seems to be a lot of peeing in the wind on the matter.


 
I think the gladiators had somewhat of an advantage over today's MMA practitioners, they were armed with the latest weapons.  Still competition does have its place in practice as it heightens the level of stress involved, putting something on the line always makes it a little more difficult on the skill level, I think it was Jeff Cooper that mentioned this in one of his books somewhere.


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## 5rings (Apr 18, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Good points........and in a hand to hand fight most Navy Seals would get their heads handed to them by an average MMA practioner........Seals are jack of all trades. Put a gun in his hand, it's a different outcome.
> 
> That is the only reason that someone who solely does MMA isn't as effective in the street.......the element of weapons and the mindset that needs to accompany dealing with surprise violence, versus a competition........but some folks erroenously believe that the kind of aggressive personality who engages in male hiearchial aggression is somehow inferior to some guy doing TMA or RBSD in a hand to hand fight........the reality is that the TMA guy or RBSD guy is desperately trying to learn skills to offset the natural advantage of the kind of aggressive individuals that enjoy engaging in male hiearchial aggression.


 I believe the question was "Do you feel that Ring Fighting prepares you for a real world confrontation?"  I was assuming that not all practitioners outside of MMA practiced traditional arts.  There are some practitioners that have traditional backgrounds but are multifacited and have addressed real world self defense dealing with multiple armed assailants.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down traditional arts nor am I neglecting the effectiveness of a proven MMA fighter, I'm just stating that in the real world an empty hand is a wasted opportunity.  If I was held hostage in a bank take over I would prefer to have Seal Team Six show up rather than the MMA brothers, just makes more sense street wise.


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## MJS (Apr 18, 2010)

MattJ said:


> Nothing can prepare you for a "real world" confrontation. No class, no style. MMA style training can _help_, like other things (RBSD, etc) can. The best you can do is simulate, and some things will simulate certain elements better than others will. MMA is great for getting one used to physical demands (mechanical accuracy, getting hit, etc), and RBSD is good for others (pre-fight awareness, non-competition tactics, etc).
> 
> Neither one is complete or better than the other. Just different.


 


Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, I'm not sure I'd entirely agree with that. I would say that there is nothing that will give you the experience except for the experience itself, but to say nothing prepares you is a little incorrect. That's like saying that all that study doesn't prepare you to be a doctor. So they do prepare you, but the question asked was "How well?" Think of it more like Army boot camp in terms of preparation, it's not exactly the same as being in a warzone, but it is preparation for what you will encounter.


 


MattJ said:


> LOL, I did indeed miss that. I stand corrected. That doesn't materially change my answer, though. Any type of training is only a simulation, and some are better in some aspects than others.


 
Good points on both sides.  I think alot of it comes down to the mindset that is hopefully being drilled into the person(s) that are doing the training.  An example:  Quite a few years ago, I had the chance to try out the FATS (FireArms Training Simulator) that was at the PD I dispatch for.  Obviously I knew that I wouldn't 'die' during the simulations, but the idea, is to put yourself into the proper mindset.  The military does training drills like this as well.  One of the schools I train at had a rank test today.  Things were pretty fast paced.  All of the attacks were done with the intent of really hitting the person, hard, if they didn't do something.  Again, the idea of this was to hopefully condition the person to be a bit more relaxed, should they find themselves in the real situation.  

I think the persons quote that sparked me to start this thread, was hinting that due to the way MMA guys fight/train, etc., that they'd be more prepared than those who dont take their training to that level.  So yes, I may be inclined to agree with that, to a point, but obviously it only prepares you for that one thing...a 1 on 1 empty handed fight.  Add something else into the mix, and IMO, things'll definately change.


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## MJS (Apr 18, 2010)

5rings said:


> I think the gladiators had somewhat of an advantage over today's MMA practitioners, they were armed with the latest weapons. Still competition does have its place in practice as it heightens the level of stress involved, putting something on the line always makes it a little more difficult on the skill level, I think it was Jeff Cooper that mentioned this in one of his books somewhere.


 
IMO, I think alot of times, the assumption is that you have to get into the ring.  Personally, I have no desire to compete, however that doesn't mean that I can't/don't gear my training in that fashion.  In other words, I should be able to train in the dojo, in the same fashion as they do in the cage, minus the cage.   Personally, I'd rather get hit in the dojo, be able to figure out my mistakes, and get used to the shots.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2010)

Brian said:


> Now and then events in the ring can give a person the sense of some of the chaos that that a brawl presents, take tonights MMA show aired on national television as a tiny example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hey Brian, interesting clip. A few things I noticed in here were that the BJJ ground-fighting game of Miller didn't seem to add up to much when overwhelmed by such a group there... but the guy I really noticed was one of Shield's team. Not sure if you noticed him, shy retiring wallflower that he was, coming in to any opportune wild punch, kick, or anything else he could (watch for him kicking Miller while Miller is being held down at 0:29...). He's an interesting study in aggressive body language! When you watch the clip again, identify him, then go back and just watch him. A perfect example of a gang-predator, just wanting to hurt, very opportunistic.



5rings said:


> I think the gladiators had somewhat of an advantage over today's MMA practitioners, they were armed with the latest weapons. Still competition does have its place in practice as it heightens the level of stress involved, putting something on the line always makes it a little more difficult on the skill level, I think it was Jeff Cooper that mentioned this in one of his books somewhere.


 
This can also be done without competition. RBSD groups manage it with no competitive form of training at all. But the idea of being able to perform under the effects of heightened adrenaline is incredibly important. That comes from an understanding of the effects of adrenaline itself, and should be trained by anyone serious about self defence. Competition is for something else.



5rings said:


> I believe the question was "Do you feel that Ring Fighting prepares you for a real world confrontation?" I was assuming that not all practitioners outside of MMA practiced traditional arts. There are some practitioners that have traditional backgrounds but are multifacited and have addressed real world self defense dealing with multiple armed assailants. Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down traditional arts nor am I neglecting the effectiveness of a proven MMA fighter, I'm just stating that in the real world an empty hand is a wasted opportunity. If I was held hostage in a bank take over I would prefer to have Seal Team Six show up rather than the MMA brothers, just makes more sense street wise.


 
For (I think the third time now?), the question is not "Do you feel that Ring Fighting prepares you for a real world confrontation?", it is "(How well) do you feel.....?" Okay? Cool.

I have to say, though, I'm a little confused as to what you are saying for the majority of this post.... You are not assuming that all practitioners outside of MMA are TMA persons (okay, cool), and there are people with traditional backgrounds (non-sporting, developed for combat effectiveness, rather than the winning of a trophy or belt) who have addressed real world self defence? I would be less surprised with a system whose main emphasis is effectiveness in a violent situation coming up with an effective result in a violent situation than a system developed for a limited competitive environment coming up with the same.

You then say that you're not putting down the TMA practitioner (by saying they were effective against multiple armed attackers? That was a put-down?), nor doubting the effectiveness of a proven MMA fighter (who didn't even seem to be mentioned...), just that if you were being held hostage, you would prefer the Seal Team to an MMA athlete (okay, that I agree with... although, given the choice, I would prefer a specialist tactical team with a negotiator rather than the Seals. Hopefully less chance of getting caught up in the cross-fire...)? Can you possibly clarify what you mean by any of this?


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 19, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The Gladiator slaves previously fighting in the arena did pretty well against Roman Soldiers during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Servile wars, even if they ultimately lost by shear virtue of being outnumbered and poorly supplied......they managed to kill a whole lot of Roman soldiers who were 'trained for the street' with the skills they learned in the 'ring'.



Technically, no. Gladiators vs legionnaires was not a matter of street vs ring. For all intents and purposes, there were no rules of engagement for gladiators. It was kill or be killed, for both the legionnaires and the gladiators. There was no quarter in the arena, and there wasn't any on the battlefield.

What made the difference is that legionnaires were trained for man to man combat. Legionnaires were trained for stamina and tactics. The legions didn't crash through Europe because individual fighters were better than individual barbarians. They conquered us because they were drilled to form shield lines, and fought with short swords that stabbed instead of hacked / slashed.

A legion was a group of units that acted as methodical butcher machines, while their opposition still clung to the idea of individual warrior bravery. Legions have beaten larger forces as well despite being heavily outnumbered. The battle of Watling Street is a good example of this.

The gladiators lost because they were outnumbered and had to fight the legions on their terms: engagements of the type the legions were used to. Had they been able to fight a protracted guerrilla war, they might have beaten the legions had they not been outnumbered so much. Legions were not so phenomenal if they could not deploy as intended. As I said, a legion was a machine, not a group of individuals intended to be deployed individually. A good example of the latter is the fate of the troops led by General Varus, whose legions were crushed in Germany


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## BLACK LION (Apr 19, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is really not an easy question to answer, I'm afraid Black Lion. While I appreciate the answer you gave, you missed a major part of the question, which MJS cunningly hid in the thread title. The full question is "How well do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?" And that opens itself up to many other questions, most obviously "what kind of confrontation?"


 
Chris, I did notice and the first thing I thought was oh hell there are so many variables and nuances how does one answer this quickly while on a work computer. Also, its personalized by asking "YOU" and my experience in the ring failed me on the streets on a few occasions despite how agile, limber, and how well of a "fighter" I was perceived as.  

From my personal experience it has not prepared me.  As stated above there are many variables and nuances from person to person but as for me, my "ring training" trained me to compete in the ring and was non transferable outside a "fair fight".


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## 5rings (Apr 20, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Brian, interesting clip. A few things I noticed in here were that the BJJ ground-fighting game of Miller didn't seem to add up to much when overwhelmed by such a group there... but the guy I really noticed was one of Shield's team. Not sure if you noticed him, shy retiring wallflower that he was, coming in to any opportune wild punch, kick, or anything else he could (watch for him kicking Miller while Miller is being held down at 0:29...). He's an interesting study in aggressive body language! When you watch the clip again, identify him, then go back and just watch him. A perfect example of a gang-predator, just wanting to hurt, very opportunistic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Always nice to have a choice now....so as not to alter events later.


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## Brother John (Apr 20, 2010)

seasoned said:


> I think it is better then nothing. I have known some people in traditional martial arts over the years that thought they were ready (prepared) And found out that the mean streets were just that. You just never know until that time comes


 
Honestly, I very much disagree. I see violence a lot due to my line of work in corrections. "Sparring" is a FAR cry from how real violence occurs. The parameters are different, the mind set is different, the objectives are different and the self restraint is different. Very different. ...and that's not even getting into the tactical errors that even "Good Sparring" will get you into. What's worse, sparring gets those 'sparring appropriate' reactions DRILLED into you. Those same reactions will get you killed on the street. 

I really think that someone who's NEVER sparred has an advantage over someone who has.

Your Brother
John


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## BLACK LION (Apr 21, 2010)

Brother John said:


> Honestly, I very much disagree. I see violence a lot due to my line of work in corrections. "Sparring" is a FAR cry from how real violence occurs. The parameters are different, the mind set is different, the objectives are different and the self restraint is different. Very different. ...and that's not even getting into the tactical errors that even "Good Sparring" will get you into. What's worse, sparring gets those 'sparring appropriate' reactions DRILLED into you. Those same reactions will get you killed on the street.
> 
> I really think that someone who's NEVER sparred has an advantage over someone who has.
> 
> ...


 
And in your line of work, you see the worst of the worst...Infact, you see the ones many practitioners secrety fear facing one day.  
You are correct in the fact that often times in actuality, the ones most successful at doing violence have no form or sort of training....they simply have intent, an understanding of what they need to get to and the sociopathic rage to suceed.... Often, sheer will and overwhelming agression can trump some of the best training.  Nature sometimes rewards us of instances in which the prey foils even the most seasoned predators attempts at an easy dinner.  

Intent a target and unbridled agression  are key nutrients of successful violence... all else I feel is supplemental IMHO.      

Predators use our training and our respect for others against us by pretending to be social and have everything a true sociopath lacks all a guise while hiding thier true intentions to see your organs and maybe take a bite of one.  They ask for a smoke when they really want your life....these things you cannot learn in a ring or confined conventional environment based of respect and rules.  

Thank you for your service in some of our harshest work environments.


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