# Blade defense - inside approach



## shesulsa (Oct 23, 2009)

A state trooper I know is developing his own tactical techniques for bad situations - particularly in defensive positions that are less than ideal.  

In one particular technique for defense against a mid-section thrusting stab he is defending from the inside and blocks with his same-side hand to the inside of the striking arm.

This is obviously a less-than-ideal position, however his thinking is "what if you find yourself there?"  It's good to consider scenarios such as this and I'm wondering how each person who wants to respond would approach said block?  Would you block hard, hopefully deflecting this stab as far away from your body as possible? Block moderately and counter-attack quickly and powerfully?  Block enough to deflect but control the arm and counter?


----------



## MJS (Oct 23, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> A state trooper I know is developing his own tactical techniques for bad situations - particularly in defensive positions that are less than ideal.
> 
> In one particular technique for defense against a mid-section thrusting stab he is defending from the inside and blocks with his same-side hand to the inside of the striking arm.
> 
> This is obviously a less-than-ideal position, however his thinking is "what if you find yourself there?" It's good to consider scenarios such as this and I'm wondering how each person who wants to respond would approach said block? Would you block hard, hopefully deflecting this stab as far away from your body as possible? Block moderately and counter-attack quickly and powerfully? Block enough to deflect but control the arm and counter?


 
Just so I'm understanding correctly here...badguy is thrusting with his right and the Trooper is also blocking with his right?  I'm going to assume that the Trooper is using this right, but I just want to make sure.  

I do see where he's coming from, however, I would think that he'd want to defend the side where he has his gun.  If the gun is on his right, and if he's moving in then the gun will be within reach of the badguy.  Also, what type of footwork is he using?  Is he moving in or back?

I'll stop now, until I get some clarification, then continue with my feedback.


----------



## terryl965 (Oct 23, 2009)

I can certainly understand his concept about what if's, but as martial artist we are always or suppose to be in control which means keeping the weapon away from the inside. Is this being developed for everyday folks I would consider why they are in that position in the first place with a knife being inside the comfort zone.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 23, 2009)

MJS said:


> Just so I'm understanding correctly here...badguy is thrusting with his right and the Trooper is also blocking with his right?



I read it as bad guy thrusts with his right, trooper blocks with his left in a more-or-less karate down block position (but presumably more mobile). If so, we do this when we can offline, even though it takes us inside and brings his left cross into range, if that's where we find ourselves--ideally, we could get away or at least get to the outside. If I couldn't offline, I'd probably want to block with "both hands on the wheel" as they say.

Of course an LEO might want to keep that right hand where it can help insure his firearm isn't grabbed for, but the immediate threat of a knife thrust to the gut can't be ignored.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 23, 2009)

As given, it's incomplete.

In a similar situation, I might step in, use a strong strike-block with my left hand, transition that into an immediate check with the same hand to really off balance the opponent and create space while drawing my gun.  Alternatively, if I'm staying hands on, the right hand or elbow would be used to strike and then control the attacker.


----------



## MJS (Oct 23, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I read it as bad guy thrusts with his right, trooper blocks with his left in a more-or-less karate down block position (but presumably more mobile). If so, we do this when we can offline, even though it takes us inside and brings his left cross into range, if that's where we find ourselves--ideally, we could get away or at least get to the outside. If I couldn't offline, I'd probably want to block with "both hands on the wheel" as they say.


 
Yup, we do the same thing.  Left hand would block, but the right is coming as well, to aid in the control, lock, etc.  Kinda like a X type block, but not with both hands at the same time.  But yes, I'm all for control ASAP!  



> Of course an LEO might want to keep that right hand where it can help insure his firearm isn't grabbed for, but the immediate threat of a knife thrust to the gut can't be ignored.


 
Yeah, that was my thinking as well.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 23, 2009)

As stated by others it all depends.


But, if the attacker stabs mid left with their right hand and you block out with your left hand, what you do at the same time or next all depends. 

Was your hand on your firearm? If so, then can you step back clear and draw and bring online? (* Assuming your local regulation allow you to pull a firearm against a knife *)

Was your right hand up or holding a pen or something else?

Where is there left hand? 

If I had my right hand occupied with a pen and their left hand was up I would stab into their arm to cause pain to get them to step back as I did the block. 

If their had was down or not a threat I would stab into the shoulder or neck to cause damage and pain to get them to react so I could step back and clear the firearm. 

If my hand was empty and their hand was down I would check their shoulder hard to get them to move back so I can step back and clear and bring online. 

If their hand was up and back, and their attack was just a jab, I might do some of the following:
left hand passes right hand falls on their arm so you can step back and out and bring them around so you are on the outside. (* Note: this takes skill and timing, and if the opponent moves with you one could find themsleves on the inside where the bad guy coudl get his left hand on your firearm. *)

I would left hand block and step back (* expecting to be cut on his draw cut back and see if I could not create space and clear and bring online. 

Of course if my back is against a wall and he has friends and I have family at hand or others I have to worry about for clear line of fire everything gets more complicated and the brain ( super computer ) has to work overtime to respond with an answer. 


Thanks


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Oct 25, 2009)

My response would be to pass the blade hand, get behind the hand hand elbow, shove away, and create distance to access the firearm.

I assume the system he assembling is designed for LEO's, so the purpose isn't to disarm, it's to create time and distance to access heavier weapons, i.e. my firearm, and bring a more 'assertive' response to bear.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 26, 2009)

At some point you have to step back and say that doing nearly *ANYTHING* as long as it's not suicidally stupid is better than crying like a little girl and wetting your pants.

Action is better than doing nothing and too much "technique thinking" will get you hosed.  It doesn't necessarily have to be the "best" technique, so long as it works.

The honest truth is that in the midst of a chaotic situation with adrenal dump humans aren't really good at "selecting" the "best" anyway.  That's why pre-training and situational drills are useful.  Maybe parrying and counter-punching may not be as good as parrying, catching, and breaking (or vice versa), but, heck, it's better than standing there and bleeding on him.

I guess my point is, that it's one thing the Armchair Quarterback this stuff (and I admit to doing it too, so this is directed as much at me as anyone) and it's another thing to actually DO it.



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## shesulsa (Oct 26, 2009)

Sorry, guys - long weekend - didn't mean to dangle the worm and dodge.

The attacker is stabbing with the right, trooper is strong-blocking/grabbing the lower forearm near the wrist with his left hand, unextended EB in right hand.  I *think* he's training this scenario as though his back is near a wall or other solid structure.  

I believe he's trying to control the knife arm and block/strike with his EB, moving slightly offline.  I am concerned for the firearm retention here as his firearm side is canted towards the opponent who presumably has an empty left hand.  Granted, it is likely his non-dominant hand and trooper can likely block an attempt at obtaining the firearm, but his two hands are busy striking and controlling this guy.

Now - please remember, he is trying to address scenarios that find him in a less-than-ideal situation where things don't go right which we all know happens.

What are the critical elements to make this as successful as possible as you see it?  Please refrain from the "do something else" comments, that's not productive.


----------



## MJS (Oct 26, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Sorry, guys - long weekend - didn't mean to dangle the worm and dodge.
> 
> The attacker is stabbing with the right, trooper is strong-blocking/grabbing the lower forearm near the wrist with his left hand, unextended EB in right hand. I *think* he's training this scenario as though his back is near a wall or other solid structure.
> 
> ...


 
If he's doing a downward block, I'm not sure he's going to be able to do that kind of block and get an effective grab before the badguy pulls back for another thrust.  My suggestion would be as follows:

Forget about the grab.  Get the baton open as quickly as possible and use it to strike, preferrably on the weapon arm/hand.  The block can still be done, but nothing more than a passing or redirecting of the weapon.  Even if against a wall, sidestepping should still be an option.  

Even if the baton is not yet open, its still long enough to use to aid in his defense.  The tip or butt end can be used as an impact tool.  

From here he can, hopefully, move to a more advantageous position, where he can a) open the baton and use it or b) use his gun.


----------



## shesulsa (Oct 26, 2009)

MJS said:


> If he's doing a downward block, I'm not sure he's going to be able to do that kind of block and get an effective grab before the badguy pulls back for another thrust.  My suggestion would be as follows:
> 
> Forget about the grab.  Get the baton open as quickly as possible and use it to strike, preferrably on the weapon arm/hand.  The block can still be done, but nothing more than a passing or redirecting of the weapon.  Even if against a wall, sidestepping should still be an option.
> 
> ...



I'm no officer, but I'd like to *think* that in a bad situation if I were to draw anything in this scenario, I'd favor the sidearm over the EB.

He's doing a kind of strong outside block to grab the arm and he is doing close-in strikes with the EB.  I'll take another look at the tech when I can and post more info on it because I think it's definitely worth looking at less-than-ideal scenarios and working through them.

Keep the feedback coming.


----------



## MJS (Oct 26, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I'm no officer, but I'd like to *think* that in a bad situation if I were to draw anything in this scenario, I'd favor the sidearm over the EB.


 
Agreed. 



> He's doing a kind of strong outside block to grab the arm and he is doing close-in strikes with the EB. I'll take another look at the tech when I can and post more info on it because I think it's definitely worth looking at less-than-ideal scenarios and working through them.
> 
> Keep the feedback coming.


 
Like I said, I dont see, at the moment, any issues with the block.  Its the grab that concerns me.  If the other hand was coming into play to aid with this, then I wouldn't be as concerned, but the 1 handed block and then grab....it may be possible, *if* the block was hard enough to momentarily deaden the arm, but otherwise, I'd imagine the BG is going to pull back for another thrust.  Of course, it may be possible if the did all 3...the block, the grab and the hit with the EB all at the same time.  

I'm going to be meeting up with my Arnis inst. later this week.  He's been in Corrections for quite a while and does take part in alot of the training.  I'll run this by him and see what he has to offer.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 26, 2009)

OK; it sounds like the scenario is kind of mid-escalation.  Maybe he's stopped a guy, has the unexpanded baton out as a search tool or because he anticipates escalation, and the guy suddenly thrusts out with the knife.  

Given a case like, that, I can see the left hand block.  I probably wouldn't personally try for the grab; I've just seen too many traps fail.  Almost as the same motion, I'd probably strike using the unexpanded baton to the jaw/side of the head.  After all, lethal force is justified, so my targets would be appropriate to the threat.  There are some other things I might do with that baton unopened or I might try to get it open...  My goal would be to deal with the threat fast and aggressively enough that there's no time for him to grab my gun; he's already down and out.


----------



## Avenger2616 (Jun 7, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> I'm no officer, but I'd like to *think* that in a bad situation if I were to draw anything in this scenario, I'd favor the sidearm over the EB.


 You probably have a point, assuming the fight's taking place outside knife range ("don't bring a knife to a gunfight").  However, if the bad guy's already committed to a knife strike, we're probably talking about a knife fight, not a gunfight.  In this situation, a 21" expandible baton might well be a better tool since it gives me the ability to use the longer reach of the stick to create distance, strike effectively from any angle, etc.  
Once I've used the EB to stop the knifer and at least create distance, maybe I can access the firearm and turn things back into a gunfight.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 7, 2010)

My cat is looking at me as if I'm bonkers, prancng around my sittingroom trying to work out what people are saying! Still not a lot wiser (it's me lol) so I'll wait till my instructor gets back off leave and run it by him though I'm no better at explaining what he says, can do it though as it comes accompanied by pain to help you remember lol!


----------

