# Capoeira works



## ATACX GYM

http://youtu.be/Wj9AN4OCd8c


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## Wey

Interesting combo. I'd like to see it in real time and in a real fight.

Thanks for sharing.


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## Mike Hamer

I love *Capoeira and have no doubt that it could work!*


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## bushidomartialarts

Having studied both Capoeira (stylized, highly intricate art) and Kenpo (no-frills art focused on effectiveness) I can say Capoiera works well as a "sucker punch." Haven't used it in the street, but I've scored some tournament points because people don't expect other people to move that way. 

The physical conditioning is also important. Kind of like MMA. MMA is a sport and has little place in a street fight, but you can't tell me the strength and endurance you get from your cage fight workouts is gonna hurt you in a fight. 

Finally, that sort of capoeira is only half of the truth. Traditional capoeira was some brutal back-street, shiv in your back craziness.


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## tenzen

I would like to see some of the traditional and practical stuff being used in real time. A school I used to teach at also taught capoeira and I went to a few of the classes just to see what it was like. It was a great workout, I was sore all over. You are definately moving in a way that is not your everyday way of moving.


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## K831




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## ATACX GYM

bushidomartialarts said:


> Having studied both Capoeira (stylized, highly intricate art) and Kenpo (no-frills art focused on effectiveness) I can say Capoiera works well as a "sucker punch." Haven't used it in the street, but I've scored some tournament points because people don't expect other people to move that way.
> 
> The physical conditioning is also important. Kind of like MMA. MMA is a sport and has little place in a street fight, but you can't tell me the strength and endurance you get from your cage fight workouts is gonna hurt you in a fight.
> 
> Finally, that sort of capoeira is only half of the truth. Traditional capoeira was some brutal back-street, shiv in your back craziness.


 

There are two extra brutal forms of capoeira,complete with weapons,sneak attacks,ruthless street malicia attacks and slick hypersmart cunning misdirection trickster type stuff.The first and the root of all real deal capoeira fighting is called Capoeira Angola,which is at least 800 years old and wasn't called Capoeira Angola in Africa where the disparate fighting methods that would join and combine in Brazil to become what we call capoeira come from.The second is a hybrid that has its roots in Brazil but is developing apace here in the USA,and my Gym is (to my knowledge) one of only 2 places on the West Coast that practices it.The first place is older than us by like 2 decades,and is more heavily traditionally Capoeira Angola than we are.Our brand of capoeira uses weapons of all sorts including guns (which the Maltas used in Rio and other places 2 centuries or so ago) and fuses all of our martial arts with capoeira and vice versa.Bullshido is RIGHT in that the more acrobatic techniques of capoeira are oftentimes sucker punches and shock attacks with absolutely DEVASTATING consequences.Literally ad not uncommonly fatal consequence.But what alot of people don't know is this: most movements in martial arts period either have very distinct parallels in capoeira or are not wholly alien to it...whereas there are many movements in capoeira which exist nowhere but in capoeira.Capoeira imho is THE KING OF MOVEMENT,and almost all techniques are movement.Sooo..head butts throws chokes locks sweeps trips? Got em. Tackles,takedowns? Yep. Even Tiger Claws,Snake Strikes,Monkey Paws,etc? Yep.Clinch work? You betcha. Greco-Roman like throws slams and stuff? All day,baby. Jabs? Most definitely. Uppercuts? Yep,closed fist,open palm,and stuff in-between. You know the weapon systems look like a blend of Zulu stickfighting,kali...and firearms.Lol,yep they shootin now.BEEN shootin for 200 years plus.Easy.

Evey martial art has lots to offer.Keep taking down and slamming on his head that taichi scholar? He'll adapt his tai chi accordingly...and STILL stab you with that sword.Capoeira is deeply steeped in adaptability and has changed massively and according to the challenges that it's presented.Just like every other martial art has done.


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## chinto

as I understand it, capoeira was systematized to allow the slaves to fight in Brazil with out getting hanged right after.  It was made to look a bit like a dance, and not use the hands much. it lacks a lot of economy of motion because if it was obviously a fight, they would hang both combatants..( as in by the neck till dead. )

I personally would say that it is not the best choice for a self defense style. If you are athletic enough and skilled enough, yes it can and has been used in a street fight, but I think there are a lot of arts that are a lot more practical in a self defense situation...


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## punisher73

K831 said:


>


 

That clip always gets posted when Capoeira is talked about. LOL
I'm sure you know, but for those that don't it was a scene from a movie called "Never Back Down".


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## Balrog

ATACX GYM said:


> Bullshido is RIGHT in that ....


 Bullshido hasn't been right about anything since that website went up.  It's a troll-hole and completely unreliable.


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## ATACX GYM

chinto said:


> as I understand it, capoeira was systematized to allow the slaves to fight in Brazil with out getting hanged right after. It was made to look a bit like a dance, and not use the hands much. it lacks a lot of economy of motion because if it was obviously a fight, they would hang both combatants..( as in by the neck till dead. )
> 
> I personally would say that it is not the best choice for a self defense style. If you are athletic enough and skilled enough, yes it can and has been used in a street fight, but I think there are a lot of arts that are a lot more practical in a self defense situation...


 

This is a very common misperception of capoeira.Allow me to offer the following,drawn from the works of numerous scholars including the eminent scholar and one of the original capoeira red belts Nestor Capoeira:

The ginga--the swinging dance-like movement that most distinguishing movement of capoeira--didn't come into capoeira until the 1800s,nearly 4 centuries after Europeans encountered capoeira. Capoeira itself is a synthesis of African martial styles that came together and developed in Brazil,including a martial art from Angola very similar to Brazilian capoeira.Capoeira was very powerful,with comprehensive hand and foot blows,head butts,knees,elbows,sweeps,takedowns,slams,throws,locks,weapons,and a brutal system of tearing biting and gouging similar to kino mutai.Hunting,evasion,tracking,extreme cunning trickery and guile,great great speed agility and endurance,poisons,and more (like Candomble) were essential to capoeira.Capoeiristas were guerilla warfare wizards of ability so extreme that they--despite being outnumbered and outgunned 35 to 1 by hunters and slavers with guns knives dogs horses whips ships and more? They defied slavers from their quilombo city strongholds for a century,and even when dispersed they reformed and played major roles in Brazil's history from war (like that with Paraguay) to politics of every stripe through the Maltas (gangs) of the major cities to economics (capoeira became a major draw in tourism to Brazil over the last 2-1/2 centuries). There is muuuuch about capoeira that isn't known.

Including the fact that capoeira is viable for anyone at any age,and is EXTREMELY street lethal.Most people think of capoeira moderna/internacionale--that Eddie Gordo stuff--when they think of capoeira.But what I teach is a modern version of capoeira luta danse o muerto...Capoeira's fighting dance of death...and it's incredible.As I stated previously: In 3 decades of training martial arts,I have never seen a movement wholly alien to capoeira,but there are MANY movements specific ONLY to capoeira (which I only started barely more than a year ago).Capoeira is effective if you KNOW what you're about and you TRAIN dilligently.Like one of the main sayings in my GYM goes:"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."


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## Flying Crane

I've talked a bit about capoeira here in the forums in the past, and in this thread are my most recent comments:  http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93956&highlight=CAPOEIRA&page=7

page 7, my post #91 is where I go into some detail tho there was a bit of lead-up to it earlier in the thread.

This may help give some accurate information on the method and what it really is.


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## Twin Fist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8FJyScbV6s&feature=related


*chuckle*


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## ATACX GYM

Flying Crane said:


> I've talked a bit about capoeira here in the forums in the past, and in this thread are my most recent comments: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93956&highlight=CAPOEIRA&page=7
> 
> page 7, my post #91 is where I go into some detail tho there was a bit of lead-up to it earlier in the thread.
> 
> This may help give some accurate information on the method and what it really is.


 

This link and your post are beautifully put,man! Well said and well done!!


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## Carol

ATACX GYM said:


> http://youtu.be/Wj9AN4OCd8c



Nice work!


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## Cryozombie

Best Capoeira EVER was the "Sexy Dance Fighting" episode of Bob's Burgers.  LOL.

But seriously, I checked out a bunch of your ATACX GYM Videos... good stuff!


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## ATACX GYM

Cryozombie said:


> Best Capoeira EVER was the "Sexy Dance Fighting" episode of Bob's Burgers. LOL.
> 
> But seriously, I checked out a bunch of your ATACX GYM Videos... good stuff!


 

Thank you so ver ymuch for the encouragement and compliment! Hope you subscribe to my youtube channel if you have a YT of your own,because we need as much help and support as we can get.Lol.I remember the Capoeira Girl commercial for Coca-Cola...


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## ATACX GYM

Carol said:


> Nice work!


 

thank you so much! Please subscribe to us if you have the chance,as my fledgeling Channel needs as much support as we can get! Lol,thanks either way!


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## ATACX GYM

Has anyone seen real time,real street capoeira (favela luta style)? I have.Those dudes can FIGHT.For REAL. And they laugh at many "ring fighters" because those guys won't last a second on the street. Btw many of those guys are armed and will knife or shoot you without a first much less second thought.The head butt is used with seriously unusual skill and in combination...which I'd never seen before.Head butt combos? Clinches look like a fusion of Muay Thai clinch work and Greco-Roman stuff...modified for the street.Plus they have those unorthodox trips that you see hardcore karateka like shotokan,isshin ryu,kenpo etc. use.They do that "step behind you hip dump" as one of my younger students called it.In capoeira it's seen in a number of moves,but the vingativa is the one most commonly used from the ginga to the horse stance to dump a guy,either laterally or face to face. Go to the 20-28 second mark here.The scissor leg takedown has been used to DEVASTATING effect on the street.I used it three times on the street--playing around--but when I dropped my friends the surprise and power of the technique was such that I had to pull its execution every time.It can seriously end the fight with one move.Cung Le isn't the only one who can pull off surprising sweep kicks and flying scissor leg takedowns,lol.In fact capoeiristas had been terrifying slavers for centuries prior to Cung Le's birth...according to the slavers themselves.So here's some vingativas rasteiras and stuff.

http://youtu.be/slGvi4tUKZ4

It's actually in Kenpo parlance a cat stance switch to a horse stance combined with upper body drops.Go to 1:37 of this Casa de Kenpo video:

http://youtu.be/0VUwVLOk-QI


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## Archangel M

Sorry. I don't buy it. Even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight".

[yt]fZ09LIqI7bo[/yt]

Impressive gymnasts, beautiful dance, don't buy the "Fighting Art" hype.

I'll take a wrestler/boxer combination over most "Arts" any-day.


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## Twin Fist

you aint the only one, i dont buy it either


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## Twin Fist

leg sissor take down on the street? yeah have fun with that when the bad guys buddy is stomping a hole in your ***.

theory/=/ reality


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## ATACX GYM

well you don't stay down with the scissor leg takedown,it's EASY to flow up from the ground and all areas in between when you train it.I used a combo of capoeira's role and wrestling...which bear remarkably similarities here...to flow up EASILY from the ground.Easy money mayne.Add in the role from capoeira and it's a done dada like we say in the hood. Check the get back up on 1:40 on this video.





 
Cung Le doesn't have the get back up,but his set up is sweet.Just combine the two and and add a little more wrestling and you have my variant.


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## ATACX GYM

Archangel M said:


> Sorry. I don't buy it. Even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight".
> 
> [yt]fZ09LIqI7bo[/yt]
> 
> Impressive gymnasts, beautiful dance, don't buy the "Fighting Art" hype.
> 
> I'll take a wrestler/boxer combination over most "Arts" any-day.


 

You just haven't seen the real deal yet man.And when you become aware of capoeira's unique history,you will be able to tell the difference.Capoeira internacionale/moderna is NOT the fighting capoeira.That's like taking a forms practitioner and confusing them with a fighter.


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## Twin Fist

yeah, we ALWAYS think it is different when we do it.................lol

here is a real simple real life rule:

the probability of a technique working for real is inversely proportional to how cool it looks.


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## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, we ALWAYS think it is different when we do it.................lol
> 
> here is a real simple real life rule:
> 
> the probability of a technique working for real is inversely proportional to how cool it looks.


 

And yet...I pull it off pretty regularly.So does Cung Le..in K-1 competitions.It DOES look cool...but so does a vicious straight right,a spiking uppercut,elbow combos,a cold blooded jab in single or combination,fluid footwork,a Thai kick to the head,a jumping knee,a jump back kick,knife work... you get the point.I think the probability of a technique working for real is directly related to the skill levels of the people involved in the conflict.Not the cool factor.


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## Twin Fist

you say you do a lot.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Balrog said:


> ATACX GYM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshido is RIGHT in that the more acrobatic techniques of capoeira are oftentimes sucker punches and shock attacks with absolutely DEVASTATING consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshido hasn't been right about anything since that website went up. It's a troll-hole and completely unreliable.
Click to expand...

While I fully agree with you, I think that he meant *bu*shido, and was responding to this:



bushidomartialarts said:


> Having studied both Capoeira (stylized, highly intricate art) and Kenpo (no-frills art focused on effectiveness) *I can say Capoiera works well as a "sucker punch."* Haven't used it in the street, but I've scored some tournament points because people don't expect other people to move that way.
> 
> The physical conditioning is also important. Kind of like MMA. MMA is a sport and has little place in a street fight, but you can't tell me the strength and endurance you get from your cage fight workouts is gonna hurt you in a fight.
> 
> Finally, that sort of capoeira is only half of the truth. Traditional capoeira was some brutal back-street, shiv in your back craziness.


 
Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, *we ALWAYS think it is different when we do it*.................lol
> 
> here is a real simple real life rule:
> 
> the probability of a technique working for real is inversely proportional to how cool it looks.


QFT!

Daniel


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## Twin Fist

let me put it this way......if i have to get mugged someday, i hope the guy doing the mugging studied, of pretty much ALL the martial arts out there,this stuff.......


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## Josh Oakley

Biases much?


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> That's like taking a forms practitioner and confusing them with a fighter.


Please define what you mean by 'forms practitioner.'  

Daniel


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## Josh Oakley

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Please define what you mean by 'forms practitioner.'
> 
> Daniel



Seems pretty straightforward. A guy whose primary focus is forms. Such as the XMA guys


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## Bruno@MT

You know, I could use search and replace to change capoeira to BJJ or ninjutsu, and we'd be having exactly the same discussion. The names of the people involved would change, of course. But it would be the exact same discussion.


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## Twin Fist

sure because while "it is the person doing it more than the style" that makes for effective fighting, there are some style that just are not designed for realistic combat


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## Daniel Sullivan

Josh Oakley said:


> Seems pretty straightforward. A guy whose primary focus is forms. Such as the XMA guys


Seems, but I would like his response. I like to get an idea of where people are coming. I also find that people can use the same terms differently. 

Arts that have forms, aside from exercise focused programs (say, a tai chi 24 based fitness program for the elderly), are not designed to turn out "forms practitioners." They are designed to enable practitioners to fight, the forms merely being a teaching tool and a means of defining the characteristics of the art.

Thus, if someone is a "forms practitiner," it is not a deficiency in the art that they practice, but either a deficiency in their instruction or in their training. 

I suppose that I could also ask what he means by 'fighter' too. The Lopez trio are all technically fighters. They have medals and trophies to prove it. I doubt that they are perceived as fighers though.

Anyway, a guy who focuses on forms is just prepared to fight as a guy who focuses on flash & trash demonstration material, which is generally where I put all those above head level kicks, jumping spinning kicks, kicks from cartwheels, or kicks done while breakdancing on the ground seen in many martial arts.  

Just to be clear, I have no criticism of the art; I am not a capoeirista and have neither trained in nor gone to great lengths to be familiar with capoeira is like on a technical level.

I do, however, in general agree with the statement made by Twin Fist, which I quoted. I have seen discussions about 'Olympic taekwondo' and many who defend it say, "but the way* I* teach/train in it prepares you for real fights." We all think that we're the exception to the rule.

Also, I consider it a truism that "_the probability of a technique working for real is inversely proportional to how cool it looks_." 

Doesn't mean that cool looking stuff has no value. We all love to see it in MA films. Jet Li would be out of a job if we all hated it. And the athleticism that it takes to perform cool looking stuff certainly isn't going to hurt you if you need to defend yourself. And cool stuff looks great in demos and can be used to bring people into the arts.

But in a fight against a resisting opponent, be it in a tournament or in self defense, I advise my students to forego the flash.  Trying that stuff against resisiting opponents is kind of like a guitarist showing up at a gathering of hot jazz and classical guitarists and trying to impress them with 'Eruption.' 

Daniel


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## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Please define what you mean by 'forms practitioner.'
> 
> Daniel


 

I was kinda thinking the same thing.

I am a forms practitioner in the sense that forms are a big part of how my system is taught and passed to the next generation and practiced.  The forms contain many many lessons and skill sets that are valuable fighting tools, if you understand the forms properly and go about their practice properly.

Forms are not the only thing I do.  Forms are not performance art to me, tho I understand that a lot of people make that misunderstanding.

I am a forms practitioner, among other things in my training.  Would I be mistaken for a "fighter"?  It's a silly distinction and is meaningless.


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## Flying Crane

Archangel M said:


> Sorry. I don't buy it. Even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight".
> 
> [yt]fZ09LIqI7bo[/yt]
> 
> Impressive gymnasts, beautiful dance, don't buy the "Fighting Art" hype.
> 
> I'll take a wrestler/boxer combination over most "Arts" any-day.


 
Go back to my post in this thread, I believe it is post number 12. Follow my link to another thread here on MT where I explain a lot about this. If you read my comments there, a lot of this should be a bit more clear.

There is a difference between the "game" of capoeira which is what is usually seen in the roda, and actually fighting with capoeira. Most people today train for the roda, and not to actually fight. It's a bit like being a padded up tournament tag/touch player vs. a full contact fighter vs. someone who trains for purely self defense. Not the same thing, but different aspects and avenues that the same art can travel down.

Fighting with capoeira would be like fighting with any other art: straight forward, ugly, spontaneous, short, nasty. There would be no fancy moves, no acrobatics, no elegant flips and body positioning. 

What is shown in this video is the roda, the game of capoeira, that got ugly and turned into a fight. I agree that most of what was seen was sloppy and not very effective. This is because as I mentioned, most people train for the game and not for the fight. But nontheless, it was still capoeira. To say that even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight" is a complete misunderstanding of what capoeira is, how it developed, what its history is. I'm not surprised by such comments as most people, even capoeiristas, are largely ignorant and have a very unrealistic understanding of the history of the art.

But what you saw on that video was still capoeira, tho it was sloppy and not skilled and not very effective.


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## Archangel M

Looked more like sloppy MMA (a half assed guard) and poorly trained boxing to me. Call it Capoeira if you like. 

If you train in an art and get into a fight are you automatically using your art even if you use nothing that looks like your arts technique?

That seems like too easy an explination IMO.


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## Flying Crane

Archangel M said:


> Looke more like sloppy MMA (a half assed guard) and poorly trained boxing to me. Call it Capoeira if you like.
> 
> If you train in an art and get into a fight are you automatically using your art even if you use nothing that looks like your arts technique?
> 
> That seems like too easy an explination IMO.


 
suit yourself,  you clearly know more about it than I do.


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## ATACX GYM

Josh Oakley said:


> Seems pretty straightforward. A guy whose primary focus is forms. Such as the XMA guys


 

This is exactly what I meant.Or more specifically: a person who practices forms to the exclusion of any form of combat or sports combatives training.I too practice forms.Literally daily.I open my classes with forms too,while explaining the great importance of practicing forms (which is essentially yoga with Oriental combative movements,plus a library of movements that comprise the techniques in a belt rank,plus a method to preserve culture and history,etc).I've long been a convert to forms practice.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> I am a forms practitioner, among other things in my training. Would I be mistaken for a "fighter"? It's a silly distinction and is meaningless.


My thoughts exactly!

Daniel


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## ATACX GYM

Flying Crane said:


> Go back to my post in this thread, I believe it is post number 12. Follow my link to another thread here on MT where I explain a lot about this. If you read my comments there, a lot of this should be a bit more clear.
> 
> There is a difference between the "game" of capoeira which is what is usually seen in the roda, and actually fighting with capoeira. Most people today train for the roda, and not to actually fight. It's a bit like being a padded up tournament tag/touch player vs. a full contact fighter vs. someone who trains for purely self defense. Not the same thing, but different aspects and avenues that the same art can travel down.
> 
> Fighting with capoeira would be like fighting with any other art: straight forward, ugly, spontaneous, short, nasty. There would be no fancy moves, no acrobatics, no elegant flips and body positioning.
> 
> What is shown in this video is the roda, the game of capoeira, that got ugly and turned into a fight. I agree that most of what was seen was sloppy and not very effective. This is because as I mentioned, most people train for the game and not for the fight. But nontheless, it was still capoeira. To say that even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight" is a complete misunderstanding of what capoeira is, how it developed, what its history is. I'm not surprised by such comments as most people, even capoeiristas, are largely ignorant and have a very unrealistic understanding of the history of the art.
> 
> But what you saw on that video was still capoeira, tho it was sloppy and not skilled and not very effective.


 

^^^You guys really should pay heed to FC's posts in this regard.He's killin it.I can expand dramatically and specifically,if you wish.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> This is exactly what I meant.Or more specifically: a person who practices forms to the exclusion of any form of combat or sports combatives training.


Repeating what I said in my earlier post:  Arts that have forms, aside from exercise focused programs (say, a tai chi 24 based fitness program for the elderly), are not designed to turn out "forms practitioners" in the way that you are using the term. 

They are designed to enable practitioners to fight, the forms merely being one teaching tool of many and a means of defining the characteristics of the art.  Forms enable certains aspect of the art to be practiced in a meaningful way outside of class and without a partner.

Thus, if someone is a "forms practitiner," it is not a deficiency in the art that they practice, but either a deficiency in their instruction or in their training. 

If someone practices forms *to the exclusion of* any form of combat or sports combatives training, then they really are not practing a martial art in my opinion.



ATACX GYM said:


> I too practice forms.Literally daily.I open my classes with forms too,while explaining the great importance of practicing forms (which is essentially yoga with Oriental combative movements,plus a library of movements that comprise the techniques in a belt rank,plus a method to preserve culture and history,etc).I've long been a convert to forms practice.


This is how forms are meant to be taught and practiced.

I appreciate the clarification.

Daniel


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## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Repeating what I said in my earlier post: Arts that have forms, aside from exercise focused programs (say, a tai chi 24 based fitness program for the elderly), are not designed to turn out "forms practitioners" in the way that you are using the term.
> 
> They are designed to enable practitioners to fight, the forms merely being one teaching tool of many and a means of defining the characteristics of the art. Forms enable certains aspect of the art to be practiced in a meaningful way outside of class and without a partner.
> 
> Thus, if someone is a "forms practitiner," it is not a deficiency in the art that they practice, but either a deficiency in their instruction or in their training.
> 
> If someone practices forms *to the exclusion of* any form of combat or sports combatives training, then they really are not practing a martial art in my opinion.
> 
> 
> This is how forms are meant to be taught and practiced.
> 
> I appreciate the clarification.
> 
> Daniel


 

I agree with almost everything you have in the post right here,Daniel.That's a terrific post man.But I know a few taichi guys that can actually fight.They're not moving slow AT ALL,either.Lol.I do a very very little taichi myself,and I can fight with those techs too.Lol.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> I agree with almost everything you have in the post right here, Daniel.  That's a terrific post man.  But I know a few taichi guys that can actually fight.  They're not moving slow AT ALL, either.Lol.  I do a very very little taichi myself, and I can fight with those techs too.Lol.


RE Taichi, just to clarify (for the benefit of any Tai Chi-ists reading this thread), I was not refering to the art itself but to the truncated versions of it that are essentially lifestyle fitness programs and not actually a martial art.

No criticism of such programs, as they generally do not imply that they're teaching you to fight.  Most are aimed at people who simply want some exercise and more flexibility.  Very popular with the elderly who are unlikely to have medical clearance for hard sparring or combatives.

Daniel


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## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> I agree with almost everything you have in the post right here,Daniel.That's a terrific post man.But I know a few taichi guys that can actually fight.They're not moving slow AT ALL,either.Lol.I do a very very little taichi myself,and I can fight with those techs too.Lol.


 
You must do alot of fighting. Anyone listening to you would think you were in the bloody A-Team or something!


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## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> You must do alot of fighting. Anyone listening to you would think you were in the bloody A-Team or something!


 

Lolol more like the "H-Team"...and the "H" is for "Hood" as in "neighborhood".Lol. Nah,I don't fight a whole lot anymore.Almost all of my "fighting" is now sparring in the Gym.But my sparring is rigorous and can be really intense at times.Local professional boxers,kickboxers,MMA guys,hardcore kali guys,and others swing through and we get it crackin.15 years ago I ran into some guys from Compton who practice taijutsu and that's how I learned that taichi guys can scrap legitimately too.


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## ATACX GYM

I had a MT guy--friend of my friend,Cambodian,profession kickboxer--directly diss my capoeira and flatly state that one kick of his "would end your career". 30 seconds,one head butt and vigativa later he was on the ground holding his bloody bruised and maybe slightly broken nose.Capoeira works,folks.


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## Twin Fist

uh


yeah



ok


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## chinto

there are people who can make most anything work for them, tools and martial arts styles, I can not say that capoeira does not work, but I can say I would not choose it for myself....by the same token I can not say capoeira will not work or does not work. I have not studied the style and so can only say that I do not think it is economical enough of motion to be something I would choose or suggest.


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## ATACX GYM

chinto said:


> there are people who can make most anything work for them, tools and martial arts styles, I can not say that capoeira does not work, but I can say I would not choose it for myself....by the same token I can not say capoeira will not work or does not work. I have not studied the style and so can only say that I do not think it is economical enough of motion to be something I would choose or suggest.


 

Fair assessment there.I suggest that you find a competent CAPOEIRA LUTA mestre in order to look at real,actual FIGHTING capoeira.It's NOT the capoeira internacionale/moderna that you think that capoeira is.Flying Crane has a EXCELLENT link that explains REAL capoeira a page or so back on this thread.Please check it out,read it,and become informed as to the difference.I will put up more true fighting capoeira videos throughout this summer,and I'll make it a point to put up clips of me sparring with capoeira too.


----------



## searcher

ATACX GYM said:


> 15 years ago I ran into some guys from Compton who practice taijutsu and that's how I learned that taichi guys can scrap legitimately too.


 

Taijutsu is not Tai Chi.    Taijutsu is a Japanese based system and Tai Chi is Chinese.    You might want to rethink your post there bub.


----------



## searcher

ATACX GYM said:


> I had a MT guy--friend of my friend,Cambodian,profession kickboxer--directly diss my capoeira and flatly state that one kick of his "would end your career". 30 seconds,one head butt and vigativa later he was on the ground holding his bloody bruised and maybe slightly broken nose.Capoeira works,folks.


 

Then I take it that we will be seeing it in Kudo/Daido Juku, Vale Tudo, or MMA events here soon.    

I'm gonna go with.......NO!!!!


----------



## ATACX GYM

searcher said:


> Taijutsu is not Tai Chi. Taijutsu is a Japanese based system and Tai Chi is Chinese. You might want to rethink your post there bub.


 

I understand your post here but I know exactly whereof I speak.The discipline was a hybrid of Chinese Tai Chi and Japanese Jujutsu.Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my meaning.


----------



## ATACX GYM

searcher said:


> Then I take it that we will be seeing it in Kudo/Daido Juku, Vale Tudo, or MMA events here soon.
> 
> I'm gonna go with.......NO!!!!


 

You're RIGHT,lol.I like Daido Juku,I am sure I could do quite well in a tourney,but...not especially inclined to do a Kudo/Daido Juku tourney.Will YOU be attending a Kudo/Daido Juku event?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

searcher said:


> Taijutsu is not Tai Chi.    Taijutsu is a Japanese based system and Tai Chi is Chinese.    You might want to rethink your post there bub.


Didn't even catch that when I responded earlier.  Good eye! 

I trained very briefly at a Jinenkan taijutsu dojo.  Very nice experience and I have a great deal of respect for the art.  Good stuff!

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

tai chi combined with ju jitsu?


*chuckle*


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> tai chi combined with ju jitsu?
> 
> 
> *chuckle*


 

Yep.It works purrty well too.


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> tai chi combined with ju jitsu?
> 
> 
> *chuckle*



Alright, guy. The negativity is starting to annoy me. Tell me something: have you studied tai chi? have you studied capoiera? Have you studied jujutsu outside of the kajukenbo curriculum?

Someone could just as flippantly say "karate, judo, jujutsu, tang soo do, kempo, and eskrima combined with kung-fu?  *chuckle*"

And it would hold as much reliability. 

I'm not disrespecting kajukembo. I the style rocks. And no disrespect to your skills. You've been studying just about as long as I've been alive. 

But do you think that just maybe, even in your almost three decades of training, there might be something you haven't seen?


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh, there is more that I havnt seen, than what I have seen, but here is what I HAVE learned.

fancy **** doesnt work. Period, you might get lucky and sneak one shot in, but relying on that crap will get your *** killed. PLEASE try to do a handstand in front of me while we are fighting, it will make my job SO much easier. I dont have to study it to know that the bad guy aint gonna let you dance around and get your groove on

Why do you think i yell at the TKD guys to cut the crap about thier head kicks? cuz fancy **** doesnt work.

here is another tidbit i picked up along the way:

things go together if they share somethings in common, or have complimentary skills, like kenpo and TKD, they compliment each other. Hands/feet, strong/fast, etc

tai chi is what i call a "lifetime art"

as in, it takes a life time of study to really "get it" like akido, or pau qua chang, 

anyone that claims they get it in a few years? doesnt.


----------



## yorkshirelad

Twin Fist said:


> as in, it takes a life time of study to really "get it" like akido, or pau qua chang,
> 
> anyone that claims they get it in a few years? doesnt.


 
Tohei Sensei "got" Aikido within the year he started his training. Within two years of beginning his training he was ranked 7th Dan by Ueshiba.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> Josh, there is more that I havnt seen, than what I have seen, but here is what I HAVE learned.
> 
> fancy **** doesnt work. Period, you might get lucky and sneak one shot in, but relying on that crap will get your *** killed. PLEASE try to do a handstand in front of me while we are fighting, it will make my job SO much easier. I dont have to study it to know that the bad guy aint gonna let you dance around and get your groove on
> 
> Why do you think i yell at the TKD guys to cut the crap about thier head kicks? cuz fancy **** doesnt work.
> 
> here is another tidbit i picked up along the way:
> 
> things go together if they share somethings in common, or have complimentary skills, like kenpo and TKD, they compliment each other. Hands/feet, strong/fast, etc
> 
> tai chi is what i call a "lifetime art"
> 
> as in, it takes a life time of study to really "get it" like akido, or pau qua chang,
> 
> anyone that claims they get it in a few years? doesnt.


 
Zumbi dos Palmares pulled off capoeira against slavers.He did so successfully that THE PORTUGUESE SLAVERS RECORDED THAT THEY WERE AFRAID OF HIM.The quilombos as a whole threw defiance for 100 years at the Portuguese,despite their guns,dogs,whips,knives and the fact that they (the capoeiristas) were outnumbered by the Portuguese colony prettty consistently at a 35 to 1 ratio.And they used capoeira to do it.There is no doubt whatsoever that capoeira is a highly potent,very dangerous martial art.The problem lies in the fact that you have zero idea what TRUE capoeira is,apparently no desire whatsoever to find out...yet you make sweeping pronouncements that attempt to clothe your ignorance(literally; as in the text book definition of the term) as fact.Your opinion is your opinion and I'm cool with that; you can even elect to maintain your opinion in the face of ironclad data to the contrary; that's cool too.Your right and choice.However,CAPOEIRA WORKS.No doubt or question about it.There are literally thousands of documents which have been passed on by slavers and Brazilian racist gentry who (if anything) would waste no time with the most scathing possible verbal denigrations to complement their most horrific treatment of other humans (slavery) if there was any actual validity in your words.Instead? The documents of the time are filled with accounts of the power and ability of capoeiristas; even when spiked by and slanted with the special irrational venom of the racist slaver and unapologetic racial supremacist? Capoeira is clearly a feared and respected art,and the capoeiristas were so feared and respected that oftentimes the slavers and persecutors of capoeira learned capoeira in order to defend themselves from these magnificent warriors.These selfsame persecutors also HIRED capoeiristas as bodyguards and sometimes assassins to do away wit their political rivals or some unwanted element in the city.

I too have trained for MORE than 3 decades.I feel confident in my ability to pull off a cartwheel kick vs you and anyone else...exactly as you feel comfy in your ability to defend and punish me for such a move.The key here is that you're dead set in thinking that "fancy" stuff don't work.Your excoriation of TKD head kicks as being fancy **** that doesn't work is manifestly false and disproven literally by millenia of head kicks.The ENTIRE HISTORY of martial arts DISPROVES your contention.I would defend your right to have your opinion about whatever matter; that's cool.The moment you sally into the realm of objective relaity though...your opinons on this matter have no scintilla atom or quark of fact to ennoble them; even via the wildest imaginings.Now,you may have a PREFERENCE for lower,less aerial kicks.You may even believe that these techs are higher percentage.(I agree with you there).But you're manifestly and provably wrong regarding the combat feasibility of tkd kicks and jump kicks,head kicks,and capoeira itself.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> Josh, there is more that I havnt seen, than what I have seen, but here is what I HAVE learned.
> 
> fancy **** doesnt work. Period, you might get lucky and sneak one shot in, but relying on that crap will get your *** killed. PLEASE try to do a handstand in front of me while we are fighting, it will make my job SO much easier. I dont have to study it to know that the bad guy aint gonna let you dance around and get your groove on
> 
> Why do you think i yell at the TKD guys to cut the crap about thier head kicks? cuz fancy **** doesnt work.
> 
> here is another tidbit i picked up along the way:
> 
> things go together if they share somethings in common, or have complimentary skills, like kenpo and TKD, they compliment each other. Hands/feet, strong/fast, etc
> 
> tai chi is what i call a "lifetime art"
> 
> as in, it takes a life time of study to really "get it" like akido, or pau qua chang,
> 
> anyone that claims they get it in a few years? doesnt.


 

I would think that all martial arts are lifetime endeavors.I would also think that the speed with which one's practical combat ability increases in a particular discipline would be directly related to the abilities of the student,the teacher,and the functionality of one's training.


----------



## Twin Fist

yorkshirelad said:


> Tohei Sensei "got" Aikido within the year he started his training. Within two years of beginning his training he was ranked 7th Dan by Ueshiba.




what did he go into it with?

prior training in a related art, and besides, he was a one in a million talent, you think everyone is?

of course not.

we are not the exceptions, we are the average

and on average? you aint a 7th dan after 2 years in anything

well, some people are.......


----------



## bushidomartialarts

yorkshirelad said:


> Tohei Sensei "got" Aikido within the year he started his training. Within two years of beginning his training he was ranked 7th Dan by Ueshiba.



Corner case. Mozart "got" musical theory while still in diapers.

Extraordinary exceptions don't disprove the point.


----------



## Twin Fist

ATACX GYM said:


> 's practical combat ability increases in a particular discipline would be directly related to the abilities of the student,the teacher,and the functionality of one's training.




yeah, again, we all think it is different when WE do it....


it isnt


----------



## Twin Fist

ATACX GYM said:


> blah blah blah blah that these techs are higher percentage.(I agree with you there).But you're manifestly and provably wrong regarding the combat feasibility of tkd kicks and jump kicks,head kicks,and capoeira itself.




at some point, the percentage is so low as to be negligible, can it happen? sure, i CAN win the lottery, but i am not so stupid as to depend on it

So i am sure a SUPER MARTIAL GENIUS  can make ANYTHING work. but for us regular earthlings?

head kicks are stupid, fancy **** practiced to develop flexibility, accuracy and timing,  not to be used for real. I learned the hard way when i started hanging with the kenpo boys. 

anyone that claims any amount of "real world experience" and still says handstands and head kicks work is ............whats the word.........help me out here.....


----------



## Cryozombie

searcher said:


> Taijutsu is not Tai Chi. Taijutsu is a Japanese based system and Tai Chi is Chinese. You might want to rethink your post there bub.


 
There is a Hybrid art out there calling itself Tai Jutsu.  As a Taijutsu practitioner it confused the hell out of me when I first saw it.


----------



## Twin Fist

what is your taijutsu CZ??


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> Josh, there is more that I havnt seen, than what I have seen, but here is what I HAVE learned.
> 
> fancy **** doesnt work. Period, you might get lucky and sneak one shot in, but relying on that crap will get your *** killed. PLEASE try to do a handstand in front of me while we are fighting, it will make my job SO much easier. I dont have to study it to know that the bad guy aint gonna let you dance around and get your groove on
> 
> Why do you think i yell at the TKD guys to cut the crap about thier head kicks? cuz fancy **** doesnt work.
> 
> here is another tidbit i picked up along the way:
> 
> things go together if they share somethings in common, or have complimentary skills, like kenpo and TKD, they compliment each other. Hands/feet, strong/fast, etc
> 
> tai chi is what i call a "lifetime art"
> 
> as in, it takes a life time of study to really "get it" like akido, or pau qua chang,
> 
> anyone that claims they get it in a few years? doesnt.



Tell "head kicks don't work" to my buddy Ben Henderson. You may have seen some youtube clips of him getting kicked in the head by Anthony Pettis.

(Yes, he is my buddy. We were on the wrestling team at Decatur high school together. And he's gonna kick Bodek's butt this weekend.)

Or tell it to Bill Wallace.

And as for Capoiera attacks that have handstands, it's all about timing. 

The reality is, in regards to Capoiera, you've had zero training on it. At least, that is how you've represented it. This means you have zero context. To talk about a move without talking about context is ridiculous.

Head kicks DO work... in context. (BTW, you're I'm not the only kempo guy here that would disagree with you on that point)
Scissor takedowns DO work... in context.
Grappling DOES work... in context.
Handstand punch kick combos DO work... IN CONTEXT.

Your arguments all seem to based on this one-sided assumption that if something doesn't work in one context, or even multiple contexts, then it doesn't work in ALL contexts.

If so, the the assumption is RIDICULOUS.


----------



## Archangel M

Josh Oakley said:


> Handstand punch kick combos DO work... IN CONTEXT.



Only in the context of a "roda" IMO.


----------



## Archangel M

[yt]qgHTJ760GBQ[/yt]

Does anybody else notice (especially around the 1:08/1:30/1:43 marks) where Capoeira and "fighting" split? What makes that "Capoeria"?


----------



## Josh Oakley

Archangel M said:


> Only in the context of a "roda" IMO.



At least you only said that it's in your opinion. But I'd ask you the same question: have you had training in capoiera? Or at least gone up against a capoierista?


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh,
I have almost 30 years of FIGHTING, i know what works and what doesnt work

tricks are just that, tricks, you cannot rely on them.

you miss? you are upside down. On your hands, with yoru BRAIN really close to my boots......

how stupid is that?

and I dont give a crap if head kicks work in a tournament ("ask bill wallace") when you are wearing a gi or in fighter's trunks, in THAT "context" it isnt even a fight it is a make believe contest with RULES, sure it might work for that.But i dont waste my time training for make believe contests

i am talking about STREET FIGHTING

you wear a gi all the time? no?

then it doesnt matter what you can do in a pair of pants by KI, what matters is what you can do in JEANS

and you cant do that silly ****, IMO

And if you happen to decide to try, and you DONT die, it was LUCK, not good technique

you want to make a case for it in non lethal tournaments or whatever else, sure, i dont think it is bad for THAT,  and lord knows it is great for conditioning and hell, maybe it makes you look cool for the ladies

I couldnt care less

But anyone that thinks that can work for SELF DEFENSE is seriously deluded IMO. Thats all i am talking about is self defense, and only a fool will think he can handstand on the street with a bad guy and the bad guys cousins trying to turn him into a greasy spot.....


----------



## Twin Fist

absolutely crappy technique




Archangel M said:


> [yt]qgHTJ760GBQ[/yt]
> 
> Does anybody else notice (especially around the 1:08/1:30/1:43 marks) where Capoeira and "fighting" split? What makes that "Capoeria"?


----------



## Twin Fist

Archangel M said:


> Only in the context of a "roda" IMO.




quoted for reality check


----------



## Archangel M

and let me add...boots, realistic clothes, ice, snow, gravel, glass, an average size ROOM!


----------



## Archangel M

Twin Fist said:


> absolutely crappy technique



Theres another good example around the 6:40 mark. But Im not 100% on calling it "crappy" as much as i would lean towards "realistic".


----------



## Twin Fist

true lets call it "when your style doesnt work for real and you have to make something up on the spot" technique


----------



## ATACX GYM

Archangel M said:


> Only in the context of a "roda" IMO.


 

Soooo...only in the context of a "roda",huh? Well,maybe you forgot that cartwheel kicks were done on the regular back in competition in the 80's,in the heyday of guys like the BKF and Steve Nasty Anderson and Billy Blanks.And not just there either...

kyoushin karate head kicks 

more kyokushin karate head kicks

even more kyokushin karate head kicks

this capoeira kick is common in the kyokushin tournies 32 seconds in

With all due respect,again and again and again I say that the utility and functionality of a technique is based upon a combination of what you know who you are and how you train.I can show you and Twin Fist PLENTY more examples,if this isn't a comprehensive enough annihilation of any FACTUAL contention of the lack of utility of head kicks,tkd,and capoeira.

Oh yeah...THIS guy? He trains TKD too.Tell him how much TKD head kicks and jump kicks suck.And he used a head kick--a push kick aka tkd front thrust kick--in his record setting title match victory.

Jon Jones v Rua


aaaaannnnd the BADDEST MAN ON EARTH does capoeira.WELL.

He even used the capoeira front kick feint-setup blended with a aikido setup to fire the bencao that ended this title match.

Anderson doin the ginga in the UFC

Anderson rockin his yellow cord in capoeira

Anderson The Spider Silva v Vitor Belfort


----------



## ATACX GYM

And if your portuguese is up to snuff,check out Anderson da Silva showing a smidgeon of combat capoeira:

Anderson da Silva capoeira kicks takedowns fish hooks grappling etc.


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> Josh,
> I have almost 30 years of FIGHTING, i know what works and what doesnt work
> 
> tricks are just that, tricks, you cannot rely on them.
> 
> you miss? you are upside down. On your hands, with yoru BRAIN really close to my boots......
> 
> how stupid is that?
> 
> and I dont give a crap if head kicks work in a tournament ("ask bill wallace") when you are wearing a gi or in fighter's trunks, in THAT "context" it isnt even a fight it is a make believe contest with RULES, sure it might work for that.But i dont waste my time training for make believe contests
> 
> i am talking about STREET FIGHTING
> 
> you wear a gi all the time? no?
> 
> then it doesnt matter what you can do in a pair of pants by KI, what matters is what you can do in JEANS
> 
> and you cant do that silly ****, IMO
> 
> And if you happen to decide to try, and you DONT die, it was LUCK, not good technique
> 
> you want to make a case for it in non lethal tournaments or whatever else, sure, i dont think it is bad for THAT,  and lord knows it is great for conditioning and hell, maybe it makes you look cool for the ladies
> 
> I couldnt care less
> 
> But anyone that thinks that can work for SELF DEFENSE is seriously deluded IMO. Thats all i am talking about is self defense, and only a fool will think he can handstand on the street with a bad guy and the bad guys cousins trying to turn him into a greasy spot.....



I grew up fighting too, guy. Even against multiple aggressors.

1. You must wear some really tight jeans is you can't head kick in them.
2. Head kicks existed before karate tournaments.
3. Savate head kicks predate Savate tournaments.
4. Just because neither of us has attempted a handstand attack in a fight doesn't mean it can't be done. However, AGAIN, you're equivocating all of capoiera to a handstand attack, which just isn't true.
5. I HAVE pulled off a head kick in a real fight. It's about timing and the context of the confrontation. 

Okay, go ahead and retort with more posturing, generalizations, and one-dimensional assumptions.


----------



## Josh Oakley

ATACX GYM said:


> And if your portuguese is up to snuff,check out Anderson da Silva showing a smidgeon of combat capoeira:
> 
> Anderson da Silva capoeira kicks takedowns fish hooks grappling etc.



link didn't work


----------



## Josh Oakley

Archangel M said:


> and let me add...boots, realistic clothes, ice, snow, gravel, glass, an average size ROOM!



Savate's always been in boots.

and since when is there snow and gravel in an average size room? (that was a joke)


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh Oakley said:


> I grew up fighting too, guy. Even against multiple aggressors.
> 
> 1. You must wear some really tight jeans is you can't head kick in them.



1) no, i am just old...lol but, even when i was young, i knew better than to get that over balanced. 



Josh Oakley said:


> 2. Head kicks existed before karate tournaments.
> 3. Savate head kicks predate Savate tournaments.
> 4. Just because neither of us has attempted a handstand attack in a fight doesn't mean it can't be done. However, AGAIN, you're equivocating all of capoiera to a handstand attack, which just isn't true.


2)dont care
3)dont care
4) no, i mean that whirly twirly crap too, not just the handstands...lol



Josh Oakley said:


> 5. I HAVE pulled off a head kick in a real fight. It's about timing and the context of the confrontation.



i once hooked up with a bikini model, doesnt mean i did every time i tried, or that i could now

freak occurances dont make a rule Josh, but here is the thing, in combat, on the street, you cant afford to lose, you lose a fight, you could lose your life, so i would think that common sense dictates you do the safest, most effective technique you know, and whirly twirly handstands aint it.



Josh Oakley said:


> Okay, go ahead and retort with more posturing, generalizations, and one-dimensional assumptions.



experience is just that, sorry you dont value anyone's but the ones you agree with.


----------



## Josh Oakley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so_HQRCFezU


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh,
dont get me wrong here, I am not trying to diss you, i just dont agree on the SELF DEFENSE value of some of the flashy techniques from various arts, thats all.


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> 1) no, i am just old...lol but, even when i was young, i knew better than to get that over balanced.



how does loose-fitting jeans equate to being overbalanced?



> i once hooked up with a bikini model, doesnt mean i did every time i tried, or that i could now



I have only tried it once, because it was available. It worked. Generally I DO kick low, but that time it was available.

In my sparring practices (not point-sparring. continuous, and hard) it's been available many times. I haven't HAD to do a real fight in over a decade. 

But then again, I doubt you have been actually FIGHTING, as you say, for thirty years. Hard sparring, maybe. That I could believe. But if you've put yourself in a situation where you need to be FIGHTING for 30 years, you should probably re-examine your life, or move to a safer location.

So how do you keep it up, FIGHTING for thirty years? Do you pay people to mug you? go to a biker bar and hit on the angriest-looking dude there? Just pick a random person in the street and beat the crap out of them? 

... Did you marry Mike Tyson?

Other wise, I'm going to guess you've been SPARRING, maybe even very hard, but not likely against guys who are trying to kill you. Hence, my comment about posturing. You inflated your experiences to the much-vaulted level of FIGHTING to seem more knowledgeable about the subject. 

Why, I don't know, you've been TRAINING for thirty years, which gives your opinion weight without the chest-puffing.

(Unless you're a cop in a bad neighborhood. Then I retract my statement.)



> freak occurances dont make a rule Josh, but here is the thing, in combat, on the street, you cant afford to lose, you lose a fight, you could lose your life, so i would think that common sense dictates you do the safest, most effective technique you know, and whirly twirly handstands aint it.



The whirly twirly stuff is for the roda. Keep in mind that the roda was meant to HIDE the real part of the martial arts, not demonstrate it. The fighting part of Capoirea is different, and I doubt you've seen it.



> experience is just that, sorry you dont value anyone's but the ones you agree with.



There are a number of people I've argued with on this site that would disagree with you. I value your opinions in general. But in this case you're the equivalent of a highly experienced foot surgeon arguing on the topic of neurology.

You've never trained capoeira, you've never fought a capoeirista, and you're using a strawman of capoiera to level all arguments against.

Moreover, you've been rude, which is the main reason I said anything. "friendly discussion forum" is what this site says at the top. You've been abrasive to Atacxgym from your first post.


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> Josh,
> dont get me wrong here, I am not trying to diss you, i just dont agree on the SELF DEFENSE value of some of the flashy techniques from various arts, thats all.



Kicks to the head aren't really flashy.

You might not be trying to diss me, but it seems painfully obvious you're trying to diss Atacxgym.


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh, not that I have to, but i am gonna give you a short bio of me.

1) how I post? thats exactly how i talk IRL

2) I grew up in Oak Cliff. South Dallas. (google it)
3) I am white.

those things combined to make it mandatory for me to learn to scrap.

Then I joined the navy. While i was in the navy i hung out at strip clubs alot. Then I started working at them. Lots of drunk sailors and boobs. Then I went into the Army. Same story.

all this time, i still had my smart *** attitude. (I only learned real humility later in life.)

I have been in, literally close to 100 fights. And I am not bragging, (it is actually something i am ashamed of) and I didnt win them all. In fact I got my *** stomped a lot.

But I learned.

Now, i have already gone over what I have learned, and you have already discounted it, and thats ok. I dont care if you agree.

these days, I am old and brittle, so i spar hard, but i avoid the bars. Doesnt change much tho. And mind you, i can throw head level kicks all day, but i know the difference between play and the real ****.

Someone says the twirly style works, but cant back it up with any evidence, and then, when evidence comes up that shows so called twirly style people in actual fights? they look like 3rd graders on the play ground.

"oh, thats not the real stuff"

then show us the real stuff if you want to be taken seriously.

saying something works doesnt mean a damn thing to me, i want to SEE it work, and even then i might think it was luck or a crappy opponent more than smart technique

and i dont give a crap what works in tournments.

i train for real life stuff.

I am judging this twirly crap by the standard of real life

it is failing my tests.

you can say that what i am seeing is the real "combat" version

then show us THAT, or just accept the fact that I, and others will not take this stuff seriously.....


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> Josh, not that I have to, but i am gonna give you a short bio of me.
> 
> 1) how I post? thats exactly how i talk IRL
> 
> 2) I grew up in Oak Cliff. South Dallas. (google it)
> 3) I am white.
> 
> those things combined to make it mandatory for me to learn to scrap.
> 
> Then I joined the navy. While i was in the navy i hung out at strip clubs alot. Then I started working at them. Lots of drunk sailors and boobs. Then I went into the Army. Same story.
> 
> all this time, i still had my smart *** attitude. (I only learned real humility later in life.)
> 
> I have been in, literally close to 100 fights. And I am not bragging, (it is actually something i am ashamed of) and I didnt win them all. In fact I got my *** stomped a lot.
> 
> But I learned.
> 
> Now, i have already gone over what I have learned, and you have already discounted it, and thats ok. I dont care if you agree.
> 
> these days, I am old and brittle, so i spar hard, but i avoid the bars. Doesnt change much tho. And mind you, i can throw head level kicks all day, but i know the difference between play and the real ****.
> 
> Someone says the twirly style works, but cant back it up with any evidence, and then, when evidence comes up that shows so called twirly style people in actual fights? they look like 3rd graders on the play ground.
> 
> "oh, thats not the real stuff"
> 
> then show us the real stuff if you want to be taken seriously.
> 
> saying something works doesnt mean a damn thing to me, i want to SEE it work, and even then i might think it was luck or a crappy opponent more than smart technique
> 
> and i dont give a crap what works in tournments.
> 
> i train for real life stuff.
> 
> I am judging this twirly crap by the standard of real life
> 
> it is failing my tests.
> 
> you can say that what i am seeing is the real "combat" version
> 
> then show us THAT, or just accept the fact that I, and others will not take this stuff seriously.....



Never said I DO the twirly stuff. Just the kicks to the head, when they're available. I've SEEN  the twirly stuff work (ironically enough outside of a strip club).

Also, I haven't discounted what you've learned. Like I said, I'm for the most part a low kicker.

What I'm discounting is your arguments against capoeira, because you have no real experience of it. Even a basic study of the arts history would show that since its inception, the roda was meant to hide martial arts within dance, and that the real stuff was practiced in secrecy. This is a tradition that hasn't died out. There aren't many teachers in America who do more than the roda. You mostly have to go to Brazil to find a mestre that does.

You really haven't researched it. So your arguments AT BEST are spurious, surface-level strawmen based on an impression of the roda, which is funny in itself because the roda was DESIGNED to make white people think that capoiera was useless for combat.

I'm not trying to denigrate your experience. I'm denigrating your thought process.


----------



## Flying Crane

Archangel M said:


> [yt]qgHTJ760GBQ[/yt]
> 
> Does anybody else notice (especially around the 1:08/1:30/1:43 marks) where Capoeira and "fighting" split? What makes that "Capoeria"?



capoeira and fighting do not split in this video.  Rather, you are seeing the "game" aspect split from the fighting aspect.  It's still capoeira.  Capoeira is fighting and doing what is necessary to survive.


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh,
There is nothing wrong with my thought process, all we have seen is the roda, and when it is shown NOT WORKING, your only reply is that the roda "isnt the real stuff"

you are just demanding  that I hit the "I believe" button when i have no reason to believe  anything  ALL I HAVE SEEN IS CRAP, so, if the "real stuff" is not crap, show us some of it, cuz the roda? it's ****. Its dance that is useless in a fight IMO, but apparently, thats the idea.







Josh Oakley said:


> So your arguments AT BEST are spurious, surface-level strawmen based on an impression of the roda, which is funny in itself because the roda was DESIGNED to make white people think that capoiera was useless for combat.
> 
> I'm not trying to denigrate your experience. I'm denigrating your thought process.


----------



## Archangel M

Flying Crane said:


> capoeira and fighting do not split in this video.  Rather, you are seeing the "game" aspect split from the fighting aspect.  It's still capoeira.  Capoeira is fighting and doing what is necessary to survive.



BS. It's MMA except without technical skill in boxing or jujitsu/wrestling. Past the acrobatic twirls and flips, (note hardly anyone actually used kicks) it looks like anybody else brawling on the street.

Not saying that the art won't give you attributes that could be an advantage in a fight, but when the guys in that video ACTUALLY FIGHT it's obvious they should spend more time on their hand skills and jujitsu and less on handstand posing.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> Josh,
> There is nothing wrong with my thought process, all we have seen is the roda, and when it is shown NOT WORKING, your only reply is that the roda "isnt the real stuff"
> 
> you are just demanding that I hit the "I believe" button when i have no reason to believe anything ALL I HAVE SEEN IS CRAP, so, if the "real stuff" is not crap, show us some of it, cuz the roda? it's ****. Its dance that is useless in a fight IMO, but apparently, thats the idea.


 

No one is demanding anything of the sort,Twin Fist.No one's even trying to change your mind,either.You choose to believe the roda--which is the equivalent of kata--is the same as the fighting aspect of capoeira,which you already acknowledge you have no idea about.Therefore nobody's asking you to believe anything,but to simply consider the import of your own words and the INESCAPABLE conclusion that reasonable,rational minds are led to...to wit: since you acknowledge that you've never really seen the luta aspect of capoeira,you're literally speaking out of ignorance.You quite literally have no idea what you're talking about.

In regards to head kicks not being realistic? Again,that is an opinion squarely contradicted by the entire history of kicking in martial arts.Jump and high kicks of all forms are very realistic if you train them properly.One would think that the flying knee or bicycle knee would be unrealistic too,but it's not.If you don't think high kicks are realistic,that's possibly a reflection of a weakness in your training and maybe a preference of yours.But not only am I very confident in my ability to finish people with head kicks (and I've done that in about 1/4 of my street fights and I can have do and will nail people with head kicks while sparring that can have do and will end the match).

But here's the truth: Head kicks work.





 




 




 
Head kicks worked reliably and consistently back in the day





 




 
^^^Let the Andy Hug show you some head kicks punches and stuff






 
They work now





 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n71ydR7Rz6M&feature=fvst

The best empty hand fighter in the world does capoeira





 
He does it alot





 
and others can and do fight with capoeira





 
Tonight,Lyoto Machida just caught and TKO'd the legendary Randy Couture with a capoeira-aikido blend setup to a jumping switch Crane front kick. Head kicks work.The twirly stuff work.IF you train correctly.You clearly don't do so (which is your choice) but then you make the obvious logical fallacy and ad hominem of extrapolating from your ignorance into a proveably false conclusion regarding the nonfunctionality of head spin and jump kicks.

And FYI? The au (cartwheel) in capoeira is done for a variety of reasons,not just attack.It's used for escape,distnaecontrol,defense,etc.I absolutely guarantee that I can pull it off against you and anyone on this site.That's not arrogance or ego,it's the fact that I know something that you don't...AND I know much of what you know.I know it WELL.This gives me a very distinct advantage.I absolutely GUARANTEE that I can and will pull an "au" off against you,and very likely something even more spectacular because you don't know its entries setups or applications.Assuming that I'd execute the au within range or in a manner that allows you to counter the movement is simply a truly uninformed opinion to have.But that leads us bak to the fact that you already acknowledged that you DON'T KNOW fighting capoeira...thus my discussions with you tend to have a circular component regarding this matter,because we keep circling back to the fact that you already acknowledged that you don't know whereof you speak.

Twin Fist,my ancestors already did all this while chained and literally under gunfire.Read the accounts of the slavers who hated my ancestors worse than anyone in this word could possibly comprehend...and yet these same slavers not only acknowledged the potency of the capoeristas but acknowledged that these same capoeristas instilled fear in them.I have a feeling that if you told,say,BESOURO about how horrible capoeira is or if you told that same thing to Zumbi or Mestre Bimba or any of capoeira's fighting luminaries any of the things that you opined now? You may not survive the experience of them correcting your perceptions.But you don't have to hop in a time machine.Just mosey on down to Anderson Silva and dare him to use capoeira against you.







Archangel M said:


> and let me add...boots, realistic clothes, ice, snow, gravel, glass, an average size ROOM!


 
I can execute almost all of these movements under those circumstances without a hitch.I will show videos of me sparring with capoeira against all comers,too.Plus slavers already documented my ancestors successfully doing these things against the slavers who hated them beyond reason.Under gunfire.While chained.And menaced by dogs.And pursued by horses.There's no question that it can be done.And yes capoeiristas also did it while freeing themselves from slave labor in MINES,so we've done it under the closest of quarters and the worst of circumstances.The fact that you ask these questions from a pessimistic perspective means that you literally have no idea of capoeira's history and therefore there will be a circular flavor to our discussions too...because you're unaware,I'm not,and every post that you put up wil lmake that fact abundantly clear.I mean this without a shadow of disrespect venom or vitriol.I mean that merely as a potent acknowledgement of truth.


----------



## Flying Crane

Archangel M said:


> BS. It's MMA except without technical skill in boxing or jujitsu/wrestling. Past the acrobatic twirls and flips, (note hardly anyone actually used kicks) it looks like anybody else brawling on the street.
> 
> Not saying that the art won't give you attributes that could be an advantage in a fight, but when the guys in that video ACTUALLY FIGHT it's obvious they should spend more time on their hand skills and jujitsu and less on handstand posing.



uh-huh.  once again, you know best.  but hey, whaddaya gonna do?  Ya give 'em a book and they just eat the pages...


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fists: No, I'm demanding that you do some more complete research before forming an opinion. You haven't. It's really that simple.


----------



## ATACX GYM

flying crane said:


> capoeira and fighting do not split in this video. Rather, you are seeing the "game" aspect split from the fighting aspect. It's still capoeira. Capoeira is fighting and doing what is necessary to survive.


 

qft.


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh,
you are avoiding my point.

IF as you claim, there is more to the "forbidden dance" of martial arts, dont SAY so, cuz that means nothing, show us. Cuz otherwise? its just words.

I would LOVE to do the research, but you have created a nice circular logic here

me: it doesnt work
you: thats not the real stuff
me: show me the real stuff
you: i cant, no one here does it
me: then how do you know it works?
you: it just does
me: it doesnt look like it
you: thats not the real stuff


better question Josh, have YOU studied the so called "real stuff"?


----------



## Twin Fist

Q: why do some people insist on using clips of professional and world class fighters doing something as proof that they can do it too?

again, it doesnt matter if a professional can do something in a nice loose karate uniform, or fighters trunks.

can a layman do it in street clothes? if not then it isnt good technique for self defense.

IMO


----------



## Cryozombie

Twin Fist said:


> what is your taijutsu CZ??


 
Budo Taijutsu


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> Josh,
> you are avoiding my point.
> 
> IF as you claim, there is more to the "forbidden dance" of martial arts, dont SAY so, cuz that means nothing, show us. Cuz otherwise? its just words.
> 
> I would LOVE to do the research, but you have created a nice circular logic here
> 
> me: it doesnt work
> you: thats not the real stuff
> me: show me the real stuff
> you: i cant, no one here does it
> me: then how do you know it works?
> you: it just does
> me: it doesnt look like it
> you: thats not the real stuff
> 
> 
> better question Josh, have YOU studied the so called "real stuff"?



Not enough to call myself a capoiera mestre, but enough to know the difference between roda and luta, and to utilize the non-acrobatic stuff. 

I already posted a video on luta by Anderson Da Silva (not the same guy as Anderson "The Spider" Silva). Plus I didn't say there was nobody that does the real stuff in America. I said they were hard to find. Come to Seattle, and I'll introduce you to a couple of really good instructors. Drive out to Cali, and I can hook you up with the guy I learned from. He doesn't live in Seattle anymore. 

But I don't have any personal contacts from ANY art in Texas. 

But, here, I'm going to denigrate your thought process again. YOU would love to to do the research as you claim, but because of my supposed "circular logic" (which is really just another stawman), YOU can't do the research.

Are you that bad at research that you require other people to do it for you? Or are you really just lazy, and don't really care enough about this topic to do research on it for yourself. Frankly, I think it's the latter. I think you would rather sit in your smug superiority than educate yourself. 

But I refuse to be an excuse for your laziness. I am NOT the one holding you back from doing research on your own. YOU are.

And I am STRONGLY encouraging you to do your own research BECAUSE I don't want you to just hit the "I believe" button. Even if I posted an amazingly brilliant, well thought-out, compelling argument with references on this website, I still wouldn't want you to just take my word for it. Look at my last posts. They were me telling you to do your own research. 

I doubt you will. You seem content to look at a couple of vids that this websites users post, and then dismiss the whole art based on knee-jerk reactions and a dearth of original research, if any.

God forbid anybody do that with kaju, though. That'd be way off base.


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> can a layman do it in street clothes? if not then it isnt good technique for self defense.



Define layman. Do you mean layman as in "guy who's never done the technique before" or do you mean "guy who has gained competence, maybe even expertise, but doesn't compete in tournaments"? These are very different street clothes.

Actually, define street clothes. It's already been established we have different standards of THAT. You wear tight jeans and boots. I wear loose fitting jeans and shoes (unless I'm on duty, then I wear loose fitting ACU's and boots).


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh,
no offence, but this is getting boring.

claims were made that something works,
when asked for proof, all I get is CLAIMS, no evidence
this crap is shown NOT working, and we get told that wasnt the "real stuff"

we ask to see the real stuff, and there is nothing but more claims......I have BEGGED for proof of this arts cobat effectiveness.

still got nothing

That isnt a straw man Josh, thats an accurate portrayal of our conversation, and like i said. Boring.

If this had been about Kaju, there is ample proof of it's effecctivness out there. Loads. Tons.

*sigh*

if you like it fine, i will continue to keep my own opinion and wish you nothing but the best in your training
.


----------



## Archangel M

One guy pulling off a move in the ring once or twice does not "proof" of system effectiveness make. Blind Squirrel Theory and all....most people, even most trained people look like those brawling Capoeria dudes when in the "real world".


----------



## Josh Oakley

That went pretty much as I expected it would. Take care, twinfists!


----------



## Blade96

i agree with twin fists that they show us some fancy twirly stuff that people wouldn't most likely do in a tournament, much less a real fight.

It might be that way in Capoeira, idk because i've never studied capoeira.

but i do know that at least in our ones, whose going to make sure they have their soto uke exactly looking right, the way it should be done, when someone is flying all 8 limbs at you. lol. Not in tournament, and most likely not in a real fight either.


----------



## jks9199

Folks, this has been a great and informative discussion about capoeira.  I know I've learned some things I didn't know.  For the most part, people have done a great job of sticking to discussing the facts without adding insults, personal attacks and cheap shots.  If you think maybe you haven't, if you've got that one post where maybe you're pretty sure what you said invites misinterpretation... this is your reminder to stay classy, OK?


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> Josh,
> no offence, but this is getting boring.
> 
> claims were made that something works,
> when asked for proof, all I get is CLAIMS, no evidence
> this crap is shown NOT working, and we get told that wasnt the "real stuff"
> 
> we ask to see the real stuff, and there is nothing but more claims......I have BEGGED for proof of this arts cobat effectiveness.
> 
> still got nothing
> 
> That isnt a straw man Josh, thats an accurate portrayal of our conversation, and like i said. Boring.
> 
> If this had been about Kaju, there is ample proof of it's effecctivness out there. Loads. Tons.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> if you like it fine, i will continue to keep my own opinion and wish you nothing but the best in your training
> .


 

However much I disagree with the encapsulation you just made of your conversation with Josh,the conversation I've had with you is nothing like that.You first denigrated capoeira's effectiveness as a whole,derided the use of the "au" (the combat cartwheel) and went on to diss high kicks and "the twirly stuff".I proceeded to provide multiple links of world class fighters doing to other world class fighters exactly what you said doesn't work.

Interestingly,you lapsed into silence regarding the effectiveness of kicks in Asian arts,but continued to diss the African-Brazilian hybrid capoeira...all the while not knowing that these same Asian arts are also employing capoeira kicks.Every kick they've thrown is ALSO in capoeira,but there are NUMEROUS kicks and movements that are specific only to capoeira.

Observe more of the twirly stuff that doesn't work so much that it knocks other skilled karateka and people unconscious,done kyokushin karate style:





 
Ohwaitaminnit.Not only are all the kicks--literally ALL of them--that are in Asian martial arts also in capoeira,but these hardcore bareknuckle karateka ALSO use capoeira kicks? And they're KNOCKING PEOPLE OUT WITH THEM? And these guys AREN'T super duper athletes? Sayitain'tsoTwinFist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhjV6MXKoTw&feature=related

You asked for proof.I REFERRED YOU TO CENTURIES OF DOCUMENTATION THAT THE SLAVERS THEMSELVES PROVIDED OF CAPOEIRISTAS DEFEATING THEM IN EVERY FORM OF COMBAT THERE IS.There can be no more compelling evidence.You asked for video evidence of it being used now.I showed myself,bareknuckle karateka who AREN'T super athletes and Anderson Silva using the techniques,left links for Anderson da Silva,and promise to deliver further video of myself and my students using capoeira (the fighting stuff) while sparring in the future.

Now...with no disrespect Twin Fist; I'd like you to show video of you kicking capoeira people doing "au" while sparring them.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Archangel M said:


> One guy pulling off a move in the ring once or twice does not "proof" of system effectiveness make. Blind Squirrel Theory and all....most people, even most trained people look like those brawling Capoeria dudes when in the "real world".


 

Agreed.Thousands of people pulling it off in the face of slavery so successfully that the slavers acknowledge it for 100 of years,followed by repeated success against oppressors all the way until the mid-1930's (all documented by THE OPPRESSORS) makes the system ironclad in its proof of combat efficacy.But only to those who can actually stretch a cerebral nueron passed their preconceived notions.No disrespect,Archangel M and Twin Fist.Just being direct and real about it.

So we're not talking about "One guy pulling off a move in the ring once or twice". That one guy has a mestre.And a class of people.Who can fight.And the mestre and his class of people? They belong to a capoeira organization.A pretty big one.With people in it.That can fight.Using capoeira.And waitaminnit.The mestre has a mestre.Who has a class of people.Who can fight.From a decent sized organization of capoeiristas.Who can fight.All of em using capoeira.Ad infinitum.So your attempt to minimize the fact that the baddest man walkin will capoeira all over your skull simply pointed out the legacy of truly lethal fighters that you try to discount.Here's a fast fact: if THE BADDEST MAN IN THE WORLD FIGHTS OTHER VERY BAD MEN IN THE WORLD WITH IT? IT'S A VIABLE FIGHTING STYLE.I recognize the fact that you disagree with me and that's cool; that's your perogative.However,niether your opinion or mine is the deciding factor visavis the real world validity of capoeira; it's combative skill has been proven over and over and over for centuries.Denial of such facts simply prove that you're literally ignorant as in uninformed about the history past or PRESENT of capoeira.You sound kinda like those MMA guys who claim that kenpo karate doesn't work because they (failed to) see it in the Octagon...

If you asked demonstration wushu guys to fight? They wouldn't look as precise polished and beautiful when they're...ya know...DEMONSTRATING wushu.If you asked purely kata practitioners who win kata championships (think old skool Michelle Krasnoo types) to fight? They'd look like...they can't get down fighting cuz ya know...they're FORMS specialists ONLY.If you take roda practitioners? PURELY roda non-contact practitioners? They'd look like...kata guys fighting.Btw I saw one of the capoeira videos on this thread.They actually show more ability than the average person AND they show pretty sharp facility with hybrid G-R style takedowns.You guys are sleepin exaggerating and being more than slanted in you guys' depiction of them being unskilled.


----------



## Twin Fist

Josh,
nothing but love for ya man.


----------



## Twin Fist

and BTW:

saying "our own history *that we wrote* says it worked then so it must work now" is................less than convincing.


----------



## yorkshirelad

This is how I see things gentlemen -

Capoeira, regardless of the syle is a badass art. The conditioning needed to pull off most of the techniques is truly extraordinary. I don't believe, however that teaching Capoeira to the average guy as a method of self protection is useful in the slightest. You can show me all your Capoeira skills and wow me with the bollocks, but you'll never NEVER convince me that it is a viable method of self protectio.

Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.

I also used the example of Tohei Sensei of Aikido to illustrate the fact that prodigies do exist, but as John pointed out they are few and far between.

Atacks, you may quite well be a prodigy. Listening to you rant on, anyone would think that you the ultimate warrior. You may well be able to take on the army of Xerxes with just your left foot and be back home in time for tea and crumpets, but the rest of us mere mortals don't think your methods hold sway for the average Joe.

One other thing Atacks, you really seem to have a potato sized chip on your shoulder. I don't know anyone else here, who can start a debate on a Martial arts topic and have it turned into a racial thread.


----------



## Twin Fist

found a clip of this stuff actually taking someone out.






ya'll have fun with that stuff..


----------



## Twin Fist

yorkshirelad said:


> Capoeira, regardless of the syle is a badass art. The conditioning needed to pull off most of the techniques is truly extraordinary. I don't believe, however that teaching Capoeira to the average guy as a method of self protection is useful in the slightest. You can show me all your Capoeira skills and wow me with the bollocks, but you'll never NEVER convince me that it is a viable method of self protection



agree 100% those guys are in amazing shape, and clearly they can dance, i just want to see one FIGHT. Just ONE....




yorkshirelad said:


> Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.



again, 100% agree



yorkshirelad said:


> Atacks, you may quite well be a prodigy. Listening to you rant on, anyone would think that you the ultimate warrior. You may well be able to take on the army of Xerxes with just your left foot and be back home in time for tea and crumpets, but the rest of us mere mortals don't think your methods hold sway for the average Joe.


----------



## Josh Oakley

Twin Fist said:


> Josh,
> nothing but love for ya man.



*fist bump*


----------



## searcher

ATACX GYM said:


> You're RIGHT,lol.I like Daido Juku,I am sure I could do quite well in a tourney,but...not especially inclined to do a Kudo/Daido Juku tourney.


 
I guess until I see it used effectively in the UFC or Kudo or MMA, I will keep my skepticism of Capoeira's effectiveness.




ATACX GYM said:


> Will YOU be attending a Kudo/Daido Juku event?


 

Funny you should ask, I alter my training routine directly after the Mundials this year.    I have been wanting to compete in the Kudo World Championships for some time and would love to make it this year.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> Interestingly,you lapsed into silence regarding the effectiveness of kicks in Asian arts,but continued to diss the African-Brazilian hybrid capoeira.


You're new here.  He's been dissing the effect of the exact same kicks in Asian arts.  You know, the ones that...



ATACX GYM said:


> ....these same Asian arts are also employing capoeira kicks.Every kick they've thrown is ALSO in capoeira


and he has dissed each and ever one of those kicks.  At least in the context of being practical for self defense.  



ATACX GYM said:


> but there are NUMEROUS kicks and movements that are specific only to capoeira.


Indeed.  As there are in every art.  But as you already pointed out, there are strikes that are common to every art.  That is because the human body can only move but so many ways and all cultures have been working hard at beating the crap out of each other for millennia.  

I was watching the Liam Neeson movie, Taken with a friend and as he was saying, 'now that looks like krav maga,' I was saying 'now that looks like hapkido.'  We're probably both wrong, but darned did it look cool watching the voice of Aslan unleash the wrath of God on his daughter's kidnappers.  

Point is that any grapple or strike that has been dreamed up in any part of the world has been dreamed up in every other.  And for as long as grapples and strikes have been dreamed up, people have been debating the practicality of said grapples and strikes.

Many modern Asian martial arts are designed for both fighting and for personal improvement.  Not all parts of all arts are intended for fighting in self defense.  Doesn't mean that they can't be made to work in a self defense situation; surprise and creativity can go a very, very long way in protecting yourself.  Personally, I think Yorkshirelad's post said it all pretty well.

I have no commentary about capoeira and its effectiveness.  I will say that most styles, when practiced correctly and in the context of self defense tend to look more similar than different.  Judoka seem to be able to figure out how to punch and boxers seem to figure out how to kick.  Kind of funny.

It is the artistic aspects, if you will, that separates arts.  The philosophy, the competitive rule set, the forms, and various unique athletic techniques that are unique to each art or to a smaller group of arts.

To be honest, I never really considered the notion that capoeira *didn't* work until you started this thread.

Most important thing is that you enjoy it and that it is beneficial in your life.  Kind of my feeling with hapkido.  There are people who will 'dis' kendo/kumdo, hapkido, taekwondo, and karate specifically, and TMA in general.  But I've been training the arts since the seventies and I'm at an age where I could care less whether or not some faceless poster with a cutsey nick name thinks that I can fight or whether or not the arts I practice are effective.

Daniel


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> This is how I see things gentlemen -
> 
> Capoeira, regardless of the syle is a badass art. The conditioning needed to pull off most of the techniques is truly extraordinary. I don't believe, however that teaching Capoeira to the average guy as a method of self protection is useful in the slightest. You can show me all your Capoeira skills and wow me with the bollocks, but you'll never NEVER convince me that it is a viable method of self protectio.
> 
> Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.
> 
> I also used the example of Tohei Sensei of Aikido to illustrate the fact that prodigies do exist, but as John pointed out they are few and far between.
> 
> Atacks, you may quite well be a prodigy. Listening to you rant on, anyone would think that you the ultimate warrior. You may well be able to take on the army of Xerxes with just your left foot and be back home in time for tea and crumpets, but the rest of us mere mortals don't think your methods hold sway for the average Joe.
> 
> One other thing Atacks, you really seem to have a potato sized chip on your shoulder. I don't know anyone else here, who can start a debate on a Martial arts topic and have it turned into a racial thread.


 

Well,Idk about being a "prodigy" or taking on the army of Xerxes,but I can say with absolute 100% clarity decisiveness and truth that I have nothing but my shirt,body armor (for HRSP and LEO training) or my shoulder on my shoulder; there will never be a chip on my shoulder.And I would hypothesize that those who suppose there is a chip on my shoulder and that I turn martial arts topics into racial threads are more than likely projecting THEIR OWN misperceptions onto my posts.As I recall,THE MAJORITY OF CAPOEIRISTAS are White,light and Asian...and to me? They're ALL capoeiristas.Not exactly the most racist stance in the universe,I would think.

Now,I completely understand and empathize with you regarding the negative impression and questionable practicality of the more dazzling capoeira moves.Prior to learning them,I had that same thought...and after learning them? I streamlined them in order to make them more amenable to today's SD reality as I see it.These techniques serve the same function they always have,and as Flying Crane pointed out: these more dazzling moves are "shock and awe" techniques with cunning misdirection and setups.The most important aspect of this whole discussion is completely overlooked,and that is the INCREDIBLE FOOTWORK of the functional luta capoeiristas,which--when amped further by functionality and removed from the fragmentation of stylistic differences--make movements techniques and sequences which would initially seem to be the height of the most LSD-induced folly turn into feasible functional movements that have devastating consequences because the other guy has no idea that they're coming and can't stop them.This last part I cannot overemphasize enough and is the aspect of capoeira which turned me from a guarded,semi-on-the fence supporter into a devout believer.

The best way I can paint a mental image of what the functional capoeirista looks like is: fuse a boxer,bareknuckle MT kickboxer,Olympic wrestler fused with Judo and jujutsu,tkd,gungfu,savate,kali,street fighter,gymnast,and decathlete.Infuse him or her with all the dodges of a guerrilla warrior and smatterings of a krav maga guy.And that's about right for starters.The base of capoeira is very much like what you see in many other arts...and it can/does/will/has finished people devastatingly and swiftly using methods familiar to all MA's.But the moment you're lulled into a state of complacency or an opening for one of capoeira's more dazzling shocking techniques opens up in the defense of an opponent being belaboured by the more "common to other arts" attacks of the capoeirista? BANG.The omg fliptastic acrobatic wth-just-happend wth-izZAT?! move is in there.However,capoeiristas who are genuine functional fighters DON'T start off scrapping with backflips and other tomfoolery.Again,the conversation circles back to the fact that almost all non-Brazilians and quite a large segment of Brazilians have no idea of capoeira's effectiveness directly due to the essential need for secrecy guile and illusion capoeira of necessity cultivated of being a mere cultural expression which--when combined with Bimba's brilliant recruitment of the oppressors to ensure the actual survival of capoeira--put the public's perceptual emphasis on capoeira's cultural dance and acrobatic aspects and away from its utterly ruthless functional combat applications.Again...capoeira's history is replete with the details and specific events inextricably fused with Brazil's socio-politico-economic-cultural development.One must be quite the dedicated student of specifically African Brazilian South American and to some extent Portuguese history in order to get a better grasp of capoeira's history.

Now about head kicks...I believe that they're functional and the average person can do them if they (one more once,folks...wait for it...) TRAIN FUNCTIONALLY.I employ a 8-15 minute stretch-balance-agility routine in my class that will give you the necessary flexibility and balance to reliably clock people in the noggin with head kicks in no more than a month,if you come to train 3/wk.I think that we should train every one of our functional tools and employ them in our arsenal during combat,sparring,self-defense or whatever.It's a weapon that is sure to shock people and have quite a bit of success because too many people think that head kicks aren't feasible and thus aren't trained for combat...like people in the Octagon swore that flying ANYTHING, head kicks,spin kicks,back kicks, front kicks to the face,heel hook kicks,etc. were useless despite what we TMA types have been shouting for years.Along comes Anderson Silva,Cung Le,Lyoto Machida,GSP,Jose Aldo,Yves Edwards,Mark Hominick,Duane "the Bang",Bas Rutten,Chuck Liddel,Anthony Pettis,Frankie "the Answer" Edgar,Maurice Smith,Orlando Weit,Jon Jones,and lotsa others who escape me right now and alluva sudden head kicks,spin kicks,flying knees,switch kicks,sweep kicks,trip kicks,etc. are being done by everyone.This "I toldja so,you just didn't know how to train them" attitude is what I have toward head kicks too.We differ there,yorkshirelad,and that's cool with me.


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Well,Idk about being a "prodigy" or taking on the army of Xerxes,but I can say with absolute 100% clarity decisiveness and truth that I have nothing but my shirt,body armor (for HRSP and LEO training) or my shoulder on my shoulder; there will never be a chip on my shoulder.And I would hypothesize that those who suppose there is a chip on my shoulder and that I turn martial arts topics into racial threads are more than likely projecting THEIR OWN misperceptions onto my posts.As I recall,THE MAJORITY OF CAPOEIRISTAS are White,light and Asian...and to me? They're ALL capoeiristas.Not exactly the most racist stance in the universe,I would think.
> 
> Now,I completely understand and empathize with you regarding the negative impression and questionable practicality of the more dazzling capoeira moves.Prior to learning them,I had that same thought...and after learning them? I streamlined them in order to make them more amenable to today's SD reality as I see it.These techniques serve the same function they always have,and as Flying Crane pointed out: these more dazzling moves are "shock and awe" techniques with cunning misdirection and setups.The most important aspect of this whole discussion is completely overlooked,and that is the INCREDIBLE FOOTWORK of the functional luta capoeiristas,which--when amped further by functionality and removed from the fragmentation of stylistic differences--make movements techniques and sequences which would initially seem to be the height of the most LSD-induced folly turn into feasible functional movements that have devastating consequences because the other guy has no idea that they're coming and can't stop them.This last part I cannot overemphasize enough and is the aspect of capoeira which turned me from a guarded,semi-on-the fence supporter into a devout believer.
> 
> The best way I can paint a mental image of what the functional capoeirista looks like is: fuse a boxer,bareknuckle MT kickboxer,Olympic wrestler fused with Judo and jujutsu,tkd,gungfu,savate,kali,street fighter,gymnast,and decathlete.Infuse him or her with all the dodges of a guerrilla warrior and smatterings of a krav maga guy.And that's about right for starters.The base of capoeira is very much like what you see in many other arts...and it can/does/will/has finished people devastatingly and swiftly using methods familiar to all MA's.But the moment you're lulled into a state of complacency or an opening for one of capoeira's more dazzling shocking techniques opens up in the defense of an opponent being belaboured by the more "common to other arts" attacks of the capoeirista? BANG.The omg fliptastic acrobatic wth-just-happend wth-izZAT?! move is in there.However,capoeiristas who are genuine functional fighters DON'T start off scrapping with backflips and other tomfoolery.Again,the conversation circles back to the fact that almost all non-Brazilians and quite a large segment of Brazilians have no idea of capoeira's effectiveness directly due to the essential need for secrecy guile and illusion capoeira of necessity cultivated of being a mere cultural expression which--when combined with Bimba's brilliant recruitment of the oppressors to ensure the actual survival of capoeira--put the public's perceptual emphasis on capoeira's cultural dance and acrobatic aspects and away from its utterly ruthless functional combat applications.Again...capoeira's history is replete with the details and specific events inextricably fused with Brazil's socio-politico-economic-cultural development.One must be quite the dedicated student of specifically African Brazilian South American and to some extent Portuguese history in order to get a better grasp of capoeira's history.
> 
> Now about head kicks...I believe that they're functional and the average person can do them if they (one more once,folks...wait for it...) TRAIN FUNCTIONALLY.I employ a 8-15 minute stretch-balance-agility routine in my class that will give you the necessary flexibility and balance to reliably clock people in the noggin with head kicks in no more than a month,if you come to train 3/wk.I think that we should train every one of our functional tools and employ them in our arsenal during combat,sparring,self-defense or whatever.It's a weapon that is sure to shock people and have quite a bit of success because too many people think that head kicks aren't feasible and thus aren't trained for combat...like people in the Octagon swore that flying ANYTHING, head kicks,spin kicks,back kicks, front kicks to the face,heel hook kicks,etc. were useless despite what we TMA types have been shouting for years.Along comes Anderson Silva,Cung Le,Lyoto Machida,GSP,Jose Aldo,Yves Edwards,Mark Hominick,Duane "the Bang",Bas Rutten,Chuck Liddel,Anthony Pettis,Frankie "the Answer" Edgar,Maurice Smith,Orlando Weit,Jon Jones,and lotsa others who escape me right now and alluva sudden head kicks,spin kicks,flying knees,switch kicks,sweep kicks,trip kicks,etc. are being done by everyone.This "I toldja so,you just didn't know how to train them" attitude is what I have toward head kicks too.We differ there,yorkshirelad,and that's cool with me.


 
Mate, you injected race into a discussion about training, so I can't understand why you consider that I am "projecting my own misconceptions".  

Now, did anybody really read all of the above post.....I zoned out after the first line of the second paragraph.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> The best way I can paint a mental image of what the functional capoeirista looks like is: fuse a boxer,bareknuckle MT kickboxer,Olympic wrestler fused with Judo and jujutsu,tkd,gungfu,savate,kali,street fighter,gymnast,and decathlete.Infuse him or her with all the dodges of a guerrilla warrior and smatterings of a krav maga guy.And that's about right for starters.


You've been lied to.  You aren't practicing capoeira.  You're sly teacher has been secretly teaching you sinanju.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinanju_(martial_art)

Daniel


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> Mate, you injected race into a discussion about training, so I can't understand why you consider that I am "projecting my own misconceptions".
> 
> Now, did anybody really read all of the above post.....I zoned out after the first line of the second paragraph.


 

Where did I inject race into a discussion about training? Please produce the quote.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You've been lied to. You aren't practicing capoeira. You're sly teacher has been secretly teaching you sinanju.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinanju_(martial_art)
> 
> Daniel


 

You've been lied to.Your sinanju friend isn't practicing sinanju.He knows a few functional capoeira lutadores.Lol.


----------



## Josh Oakley

I'd also like to point out that any discussion that gets into capoiera necessarily gets into the topic of race. Any discussion getting into the point of roda will necessarily get into capoiera's history/


----------



## Josh Oakley

And I'm pretty sure *I* introduced race into this conversation, so I want my credit, damnit!


----------



## Josh Oakley

yorkshirelad said:


> Mate, you injected race into a discussion about training, so I can't understand why you consider that I am "projecting my own misconceptions".
> 
> Now, did anybody really read all of the above post.....I zoned out after the first line of the second paragraph.



No, he injected _nationality_ into the topic. *I* injected race. And in discussion about capoiera, it's relevant.


----------



## Twin Fist

Yorkie, 
I hear ya, the Wall of Text effect kicked in, and the thing is, i can read fairy tales no problem, if they are short and sweet and I am interested.

When I am not interested in blatantly false crap, i cant fake interest, so i never got to the second paragraph myself.........

besides, i went through the "this stuff is super awesome fun sauce, you dont undersand, these guys were supermen who can beat anyone, (insert style) is unbeatable, they are macho super sexy and the toughest, bravest, most polite bullet proof super heroes ever!!! No one can beat them.

in the 80's it was ninjitsu fanboys
int he 90's it was gracie jj fanboys
in the 2000's it was krav maga fanboys
now it is a lambada fanboy

(and no, i aint talking about Josh)

it is always the same, and it is always crap.


----------



## Grenadier

My perspective is that there are many techniques that a particular martial art may teach, that's more for the development of the person, and not nearly so much for the applications of it in actual combat.  

The idea of practicing such a technique is to help someone improve his fundamental basis, so that all other areas of his knowledge can improve.  

Even though (or maybe because?) my primary art is Shotokan Karate, I agree with Twin Fist in many ways, that some techniques, such as spinning hook kicks, jumping kicks, etc., aren't going to be practical under certain circumstances.  For example, on a slippery surface such as a floor covered in spilled beer, a field with uneven ground, etc.  

For that matter, there are some kata that I practice, that use a 360 degree jumping / spinning double kick (Kanku Sho), or even a 540 degree jumping / spinning kick (Unsu).  Of course I'm not going to use such moves for actual combat situations.  Instead, I'm going to rely more on closing the gap, good ole-fashioned punching, elbow strikes, practical kicks, and so forth.  

Also, in kata Gojushiho Dai, I'm using a cat stance a lot.  Not exactly a practical stance for fighting, though.  

Does this mean that what I've been practicing in those katas were completely useless?  

Not by any means.  

As a result of such practice of the above techniques, my legs have become even stronger, my sense of balance has improved a good bit, and especially my sense of direction has improved.  I would hardly call that a waste of time.  

I am guessing, that no martial art is going to exclusively use such techniques.  I'm pretty sure that just about all valid martial arts these days teach punching using proper mechanics, kicking, etc.  There are, after all, only so many ways the human body can perform such techniques.  

If someone were to look at me performing kata Unsu during the more "showy" areas, and say "that doesn't work on the streets," I'd have to agree, that my primary attack stance isn't going to be cat stance, or that my primary attack isn't going to be a one finger spear hand thrust, much less the 540 degree acrobatics.  

However, the practice of such has helped me in many other areas, that I know that my "street fighting" skills are better as a result.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> You've been lied to.Your sinanju friend isn't practicing sinanju.He knows a few functional capoeira lutadores.Lol.


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> Mate, you injected race into a discussion about training, so I can't understand why you consider that I am "projecting my own misconceptions".
> 
> Now, did anybody really read all of the above post.....I zoned out after the first line of the second paragraph.


 

What this means is...you didn't know what you were talking about before,voiced a literally ignorant opinion,refused to read the correct answer,and you STILL don't know what you're talking about now.You and Twin Fist make a pattern out of this literally ignorant--I mean dictionary definition ignorant here,no insult to your actual person whom I have never and likely will never meet--behaviour.


----------



## Flying Crane

just a quick question here:  Has anybody in this thread, aside from Atacx Gym, bothered to go read the post I linked to early in this thread?


----------



## Twin Fist

I did.

I like this line in particular:
" I think that to fight with capoeira will look a whole lot like fighting with any other style: ugly, brutal, brief, decisive. *A capoeirista in a real fight isn't going to do a bunch of cartwheels and acrobatics and stuff*. That's showing off and the enemy will obviously take advantage of that to strike."


so, what everyone shows us isnt the 'real stuff"

but when we ask to see the real stuff, no one can......


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> I did.
> 
> I like this line in particular:
> " I think that to fight with capoeira will look a whole lot like fighting with any other style: ugly, brutal, brief, decisive. *A capoeirista in a real fight isn't going to do a bunch of cartwheels and acrobatics and stuff*. That's showing off and the enemy will obviously take advantage of that to strike."
> 
> 
> so, what everyone shows us isnt the 'real stuff"
> 
> but when we ask to see the real stuff, no one can......


 
Anderson Silva showed you the real stuff.I can and have and will continue to show you the real stuff.And thank you for that post.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> just a quick question here: Has anybody in this thread, aside from Atacx Gym, bothered to go read the post I linked to early in this thread?


Yes; I was an active participant in that one. 

And for the benefit of those on page 9, http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93956&highlight=CAPOEIRA&page=7

Daniel


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Josh Oakley said:


> I'd also like to point out that any discussion that gets into capoiera necessarily gets into the topic of race. Any discussion getting into the point of roda will necessarily get into capoiera's history/



One of the things I like best about Taylor's 2-volume history of Capoeira is that he's telling the story of that martial art. It's unavoidably also a story of slavery in the western hemisphere -- but because he's really talking about Capoeira, it's remarkably free of political silliness. 

It's rare to find that topic discussed in a book by other than an angry black person or a guilty-feeling white person. Refreshing to get "just the facts."

As for effectiveness....Capoeira is like any other art that way. The _original_ stuff used for self defense was brutal, horrible and deadly effective. And it was Capoeria. As the world has changed, and people didn't need to be able to fight as often, the emphasis for much of the training has morphed into conditioning, personal growth and artistic expression. And it's still Capoeira.

Just like TKD, Kenpo, Hapkido, Escrima..........even Krav Maga as taught in the states is a pale shadow of the destructiveness taught to the IDF.

End of story.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

bushidomartialarts said:


> As for effectiveness....Capoeira is like any other art that way. The _original_ stuff used for self defense was brutal, horrible and deadly effective. And it was Capoeria. As the world has changed, and people didn't need to be able to fight as often, the emphasis for much of the training has morphed into conditioning, personal growth and artistic expression. And it's still Capoeira.
> 
> Just like TKD, Kenpo, Hapkido, Escrima..........even Krav Maga as taught in the states is a pale shadow of the destructiveness taught to the IDF.
> 
> End of story.


Indeed.

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

bushidomartialarts said:


> One of the things I like best about Taylor's 2-volume history of Capoeira is that he's telling the story of that martial art. It's unavoidably also a story of slavery in the western hemisphere -- but because he's really talking about Capoeira, it's remarkably free of political silliness.
> 
> It's rare to find that topic discussed in a book by other than an angry black person or a guilty-feeling white person. Refreshing to get "just the facts."
> 
> As for effectiveness....Capoeira is like any other art that way. The _original_ stuff used for self defense was brutal, horrible and deadly effective. And it was Capoeria. As the world has changed, and people didn't need to be able to fight as often, the emphasis for much of the training has morphed into conditioning, personal growth and artistic expression. And it's still Capoeira.
> 
> Just like TKD, Kenpo, Hapkido, Escrima..........even Krav Maga as taught in the states is a pale shadow of the destructiveness taught to the IDF.
> 
> End of story.


 

ayup, and to add: for those who understand it properly and who train it properly, it is still a deadly effective method of fighting.  But for those who train only for the roda, and a friendly roda at that, it may not be.  But either way, it is still capoeira.  These are simply two different aspects of the art.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Ten pages in and my hoped for alternative to Microsoft Works still has not materialized.  Is Capoeira Works still in development?



Daniel


----------



## bushidomartialarts

I think it's under development as a subprogram of Adobe _Acrobat_....


----------



## ATACX GYM

bushidomartialarts said:


> I think it's under development as a subprogram of Adobe _Acrobat_....


 
Hahahahahaha!!! +2!


----------



## ATACX GYM

Flying Crane said:


> ayup, and to add: for those who understand it properly and who train it properly, it is still a deadly effective method of fighting. But for those who train only for the roda, and a friendly roda at that, it may not be. But either way, it is still capoeira. These are simply two different aspects of the art.


 
Real talk that is what I've been saying.And Nestor Capoeira's books are also excellent scholarly works.Especially his 2nd and 3rd books.I bought Taylor's works exactly once...then my cousins happened by and the books just ooopsy daisy vanished.We're talking Capoeira Angola books right? 1 and 2? Something like Angola to Cyberspace? I didn't get a chance to read PAGE ONE of that book.Cousins JACKED me,man.Now they SWEAR the books are theirs cuz they've had them for so long.You know what I mean.

But Nestor's books are true treasures not only because of the time span that they cover,but because Nestor is that rarest of the rare blend of genuine master level capoeirista--one of the first 5 cordo vermelho (red cords) in capoeira,back when it was SUUUPER HARD to get the cordo vermelho AND the old skool training was still MANDATORY--who met both Mestre Bimba AND Mestre Pastinha during their lifetimes in the 60's,he was part of the crucial and seminal building of capoeira into what it became in the late 70's and 80's up til right now.His works fuse the irreplaceable insight of one of the greatest modern players of the game with the rigorous objectivity and penetrating vision and training of the classically trained historian and academic.He has the wonderful gift of being a world class capoerista around the greatest masters,their greatest students,forming the greatest organizations,during the time of capoeira's world resurgence in the 60's and 70's...which cannot be replaced or replicated.And he's an academic beyond reproach.These two absolutely vital,completely indispensable perspectives are RARELY combined within one person and that's why I prefer his works better than anything I've read so far.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

ATACX GYM said:


> Real talk that is what I've been saying.And Nestor Capoeira's books are also excellent scholarly works.Especially his 2nd and 3rd books.I bought Taylor's works exactly once...then my cousins happened by and the books just ooopsy daisy vanished.We're talking Capoeira Angola books right? 1 and 2? Something like Angola to Cyberspace? I didn't get a chance to read PAGE ONE of that book.Cousins JACKED me,man.Now they SWEAR the books are theirs cuz they've had them for so long.You know what I mean.



That's them..."From Luanda to Cyberspace."  Fantastic books.


----------



## Twin Fist

TKD has all those stupid jumping, spinning and jump spinning kicks

kenpo has a bunch of finger strikes i think are silly as hell

this has the roda

lots of arts have silly, useless crap in them.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Twin Fist said:


> lots of arts have silly, useless crap in them.



I'd go with _*all*_ martial arts have silly, useless crap in them...but less than you seem to think.

As soon as you start training to imitate, rather than to intelligently apply concepts, stuff becomes silly and useless.

For example, if you train a 540 degree jump kick in the dojo -- and you understand it's purpose isn't street use, but rather to make a kick to the knee devastating -- then you're not being silly or useless. But if you're simply imitating what you've seen without truly understanding, then the next thing you know some kid who's never been in a fight is arguing that a jump kick is perfectly applicable and appropriate for the street. 

On the other hand, "seen without truly understanding" is also a fair description of many peoples' complaints about an art they haven't studied.....


----------



## Twin Fist

i would have thought it went without saying that "stupid, silly, or useless" means "*not for self defense but it teaches you good balance, power, focus etc*" since i have been talking about self defense the whole time..........

i will be more clear in the future.......


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Zumbi dos Palmares pulled off capoeira against slavers.He did so successfully that THE PORTUGUESE SLAVERS RECORDED THAT THEY WERE AFRAID OF HIM.The quilombos as a whole threw defiance for 100 years at the Portuguese,despite their guns,dogs,whips,knives and the fact that they (the capoeiristas) were outnumbered by the Portuguese colony prettty consistently at a 35 to 1 ratio.And they used capoeira to do it.There is no doubt whatsoever that capoeira is a highly potent,very dangerous martial art.The problem lies in the fact that you have zero idea what TRUE capoeira is,apparently no desire whatsoever to find out...yet you make sweeping pronouncements that attempt to clothe your ignorance(literally; as in the text book definition of the term) as fact.Your opinion is your opinion and I'm cool with that; you can even elect to maintain your opinion in the face of ironclad data to the contrary; that's cool too.Your right and choice.However,CAPOEIRA WORKS.No doubt or question about it.There are literally thousands of documents which have been passed on by slavers and Brazilian racist gentry who (if anything) would waste no time with the most scathing possible verbal denigrations to complement their most horrific treatment of other humans (slavery) if there was any actual validity in your words.Instead? The documents of the time are filled with accounts of the power and ability of capoeiristas; even when spiked by and slanted with the special irrational venom of the racist slaver and unapologetic racial supremacist? Capoeira is clearly a feared and respected art,and the capoeiristas were so feared and respected that oftentimes the slavers and persecutors of capoeira learned capoeira in order to defend themselves from these magnificent warriors.These selfsame persecutors also HIRED capoeiristas as bodyguards and sometimes assassins to do away wit their political rivals or some unwanted element in the city.
> 
> I too have trained for MORE than 3 decades.I feel confident in my ability to pull off a cartwheel kick vs you and anyone else...exactly as you feel comfy in your ability to defend and punish me for such a move.The key here is that you're dead set in thinking that &quot;fancy&quot; stuff don't work.Your excoriation of TKD head kicks as being fancy **** that doesn't work is manifestly false and disproven literally by millenia of head kicks.The ENTIRE HISTORY of martial arts DISPROVES your contention.I would defend your right to have your opinion about whatever matter; that's cool.The moment you sally into the realm of objective relaity though...your opinons on this matter have no scintilla atom or quark of fact to ennoble them; even via the wildest imaginings.Now,you may have a PREFERENCE for lower,less aerial kicks.You may even believe that these techs are higher percentage.(I agree with you there).But you're manifestly and provably wrong regarding the combat feasibility of tkd kicks and jump kicks,head kicks,and capoeira itself.


This is the race bating quote that I was refering to. Instead of just telling us that that art was practised effectively by slaves, you went on a diatribe. When you refer to &quot; Brazillian racist gentry&quot; and unapologetic racial supremacists&quot;, it become less of a history lesson and more of a diatribe. The potato sized chip is still there mate.When it comes to not reading your later posts, there's nothing ignorant about it, you just become boring. You've already told us that you believe Capoeira to be superior. You've already told us about racism. You've already told us that you are a superior martial artists, who's been in numerous street fights, yawn yawn. I've always said, you can punch me, kick me shoot or stab me to death, but please don't bore me to death.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

So you define building physical or mental attributes as "silly and useless"?

This must be an innovative use of the terms "silly" and "useless" of which I was previously unaware.

OTOH: I totally agree that trying to apply training methods to street defense is silly and useless. You don't use pushups in a street fight....


----------



## Twin Fist

bushidomartialarts said:


> So you define building physical or mental attributes as "silly and useless"?



no, skills, and balance and mental toughness is important

jump spinning kicks are silly and useless


but cool as hell


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Twin Fist said:


> but cool as hell



Meaning they can get you laid, among other things.

I wouldn't say "silly and useless,"  "silly and useless _*in combat*_" absolutely


----------



## Flying Crane

I know there's a lot of different kinds of sparring, and without getting into an argument over definitions and whatnot, I'll ask a question: in the general sense, what do people think about sparring?  Useful?  Not useful?  Waste of time?  Important training exercise?


----------



## bushidomartialarts

I've always felt that it was a lot like MMA training. Builds some very important skills and attributes: speed, timing, calmness in confrontation, target acquisition, the value of avoiding strikes.

But it has the disadvantage of training people with reflexes that will hurt them in the street. Worse, many people who are very good at sparring appear to have forgotten this fact. 

An important drill, if kept in perspective.


----------



## Twin Fist

bushidomartialarts said:


> I wouldn't say "silly and useless,"  "silly and useless _*in combat*_" absolutely




agreed


----------



## Twin Fist

sparring is the single most important part of martial art's training

if you aint sparring, you are not learning how to fight, Sometimes, like fighting, the only way to learn how is to do it

Look at it this way, it doesnt matter how much porn you watch, you are a virgin till you are not.




Flying Crane said:


> I know there's a lot of different kinds of sparring, and without getting into an argument over definitions and whatnot, I'll ask a question: in the general sense, what do people think about sparring?  Useful?  Not useful?  Waste of time?  Important training exercise?


----------



## Flying Crane

bushidomartialarts said:


> I've always felt that it was a lot like MMA training. Builds some very important skills and attributes: speed, timing, calmness in confrontation, target acquisition, the value of avoiding strikes.
> 
> But it has the disadvantage of training people with reflexes that will hurt them in the street. Worse, many people who are very good at sparring appear to have forgotten this fact.
> 
> An important drill, if kept in perspective.


 
a fair assessment.

What people seem to not understand is, the Roda is capoeira's version of sparring.  And within the Roda, it can be very relaxed and playful, or harsh and nasty and anywhere in between.  But it's just sparring.  It ain't the end-all be-all, it's just one aspect of the system, tho I'll acknowledge that it's an aspect that is often heavily emphasized.

If anyone objects to the Roda, then they must also object to sparring in the general sense.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Nail on the head, Crane...

We even saw the same dividing line earlier in the thread. One side had an inflated idea of the combat application of what happens in the roda, and the other side saw no value. 

Well done.


----------



## Twin Fist

when i spar, i hit people, i dont dance with them and stand on my head

thats not sparring, thats gymnastics done to bad music


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Hey now!  You can dis the moves all you want, but don't come down on the _*music*_ unless you want a berimbau enema.....


----------



## Twin Fist

not even if you bought me dinner first buddy.....


----------



## bushidomartialarts

C'mon. I know how far you Nacodoches boys are willing to go for hot chili and cold beer....


----------



## Twin Fist

well..it is hard to argue with logic like that...lol


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> I know there's a lot of different kinds of sparring, and without getting into an argument over definitions and whatnot, I'll ask a question: in the general sense, what do people think about sparring? Useful? Not useful? Waste of time? Important training exercise?


In order to learn techniques in such a way as to be useful in a practical setting, be it a violent encounter or a tournament, the student's proficiency in said techniques must be pressure tested in some way that approximates the practical setting that the student is preparing for.

Whatever you choose to call that mechanism, it must be present.  A resisting opponent who is using techniques that an opponent would *realistically* use in the setting for which you are preparing (be it a violent encounter or a tournament) is a necesary ingredient in such a mechanism.

Daniel


----------



## ATACX GYM

ATACX GYM said:


> Zumbi dos Palmares pulled off capoeira against slavers.He did so successfully that THE PORTUGUESE SLAVERS RECORDED THAT THEY WERE AFRAID OF HIM.The quilombos as a whole threw defiance for 100 years at the Portuguese,despite their guns,dogs,whips,knives and the fact that they (the capoeiristas) were outnumbered by the Portuguese colony prettty consistently at a 35 to 1 ratio.And they used capoeira to do it.There is no doubt whatsoever that capoeira is a highly potent,very dangerous martial art.The problem lies in the fact that you have zero idea what TRUE capoeira is,apparently no desire whatsoever to find out...yet you make sweeping pronouncements that attempt to clothe your ignorance(literally; as in the text book definition of the term) as fact.Your opinion is your opinion and I'm cool with that; you can even elect to maintain your opinion in the face of ironclad data to the contrary; that's cool too.Your right and choice.However,CAPOEIRA WORKS.No doubt or question about it.There are literally thousands of documents which have been passed on by slavers and Brazilian racist gentry who (if anything) would waste no time with the most scathing possible verbal denigrations to complement their most horrific treatment of other humans (slavery) if there was any actual validity in your words.Instead? The documents of the time are filled with accounts of the power and ability of capoeiristas; even when spiked by and slanted with the special irrational venom of the racist slaver and unapologetic racial supremacist? Capoeira is clearly a feared and respected art,and the capoeiristas were so feared and respected that oftentimes the slavers and persecutors of capoeira learned capoeira in order to defend themselves from these magnificent warriors.These selfsame persecutors also HIRED capoeiristas as bodyguards and sometimes assassins to do away wit their political rivals or some unwanted element in the city.
> 
> I too have trained for MORE than 3 decades.I feel confident in my ability to pull off a cartwheel kick vs you and anyone else...exactly as you feel comfy in your ability to defend and punish me for such a move.The key here is that you're dead set in thinking that "fancy" stuff don't work.Your excoriation of TKD head kicks as being fancy **** that doesn't work is manifestly false and disproven literally by millenia of head kicks.The ENTIRE HISTORY of martial arts DISPROVES your contention.I would defend your right to have your opinion about whatever matter; that's cool.The moment you sally into the realm of objective relaity though...your opinons on this matter have no scintilla atom or quark of fact to ennoble them; even via the wildest imaginings.Now,you may have a PREFERENCE for lower,less aerial kicks.You may even believe that these techs are higher percentage.(I agree with you there).But you're manifestly and provably wrong regarding the combat feasibility of tkd kicks and jump kicks,head kicks,and capoeira itself.


 


None of this is either a diatribe or in any way racist or injecting race into this discussion.JOSH was the one who mentioned race first.I mentioned nationality and mindset.I'm not at all surprised to discover that you could read an objective commentary and NOT see that it lacks wholesale the things that you claim is within it.My post is on the effectiveness of capoeira along with the long documented effectiveness of what Twin Fist called the "twirly" stuff.The fact that I mentioned Portuguese slavers and racist Brazilian gentry is NOT an indication of me injecting RACE into the matter...it's proof that the mindset of the groups I specified are massively disinclined to write ANYTHING positive about capoeira and/or capoeiristas.The fact that the most extremely disapproving of those people opposed to the success and spread of capoeira and capoeristas left hundreds if not thousands of documents detailing its deadly effectiveness should be the final word on this matter.And it IS from a factual perspective.However,you...yorkshirelad...and Twin Fist are free to indulge your opinions however you like.As you should know,I have no probs with that.

The athletes of the roda are NOT indicative of actual combat capoeira.People like Anderson THE SPIDER Silva is and so am I.And we're not alone.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In order to learn techniques in such a way as to be useful in a practical setting, be it a violent encounter or a tournament, the student's proficiency in said techniques must be pressure tested in some way that approximates the practical setting that the student is preparing for.
> 
> Whatever you choose to call that mechanism, it must be present. A resisting opponent who is using techniques that an opponent would *realistically* use in the setting for which you are preparing (be it a violent encounter or a tournament) is a necesary ingredient in such a mechanism.
> 
> Daniel


 

I completely and totally agree with you.


----------



## Twin Fist

ATACX GYM said:


> People like Anderson THE SPIDER Silva is and so am I.And we're not alone.





*chuckle*


----------



## searcher

Flying Crane said:


> I know there's a lot of different kinds of sparring, and without getting into an argument over definitions and whatnot, I'll ask a question: in the general sense, what do people think about sparring? Useful? Not useful? Waste of time? Important training exercise?


 

Sparring is highly important to myself, My Wife, and all of my students.    We are a knockdown school and we find sparring to be as essential as any other part of our training.    Kata, kihon, kumite/randori/rolling are our essentials.     We have been called barbaric by some and we love it.     It has to be said, that in my school, we don't try to kill each other, but we push each other to reach our limits.     If we don't push each other, we do a dis-service to one another.


----------



## ATACX GYM

searcher said:


> Sparring is highly important to myself, My Wife, and all of my students. We are a knockdown school and we find sparring to be as essential as any other part of our training. Kata, kihon, kumite/randori/rolling are our essentials. We have been called barbaric by some and we love it. It has to be said, that in my school, we don't try to kill each other, but we push each other to reach our limits. If we don't push each other, we do a dis-service to one another.


 

I LIKE THIS GUY! AND YOUR WIFE IS FIYA TOO!! It's supr dupr raaaaarrre to find a woman,a martial artist who'll go to the throwdown with you AND marry you!


----------



## bushidomartialarts

+1

My wife's tough, and a martial artist before we met. We met in a capoeira class, and she knocked out a guy who kept gouging my eye in a sparring class (kenpo, not capoeira). 

But if we spar, it makes her cry. Purely psychological -- her hubby shouldn't hit her, under any circs.


----------



## searcher

bushidomartialarts said:


> +1
> 
> My wife's tough, and a martial artist before we met. We met in a capoeira class, and she knocked out a guy who kept gouging my eye in a sparring class (kenpo, not capoeira).
> 
> But if we spar, it makes her cry. Purely psychological -- her hubby shouldn't hit her, under any circs.


 

I push My Wife just as hard as I push any of my fighters.     The results are, that in a hairy situation, that I am not constantly worrying about her getting hurt.     She will be right there pounding on someone and IF she gets hit, she will shrug it off and keep going.    When My Wife received her Sho-dan, she worked very hard and had to deal with some serious beatings from someof the guys in class who were considerably heavier than she was(we were on dating at that time).     She fought through it and knocked some of them out during the course of her testing period and the months preceding.     

As far as hitting My Wife, it happens everytime we spar.    She pounds on me and I pound on her.    It keeps her on top of her game and me as well.    She gets asked at her work all of the time about bruises and such.    She just tells them what they are from and that ends the conversation.    People think we are nuts and maybe we are, but it the stuff hits the fan, we know what we each can do and it is a huge relief.


----------



## ATACX GYM

searcher said:


> I push My Wife just as hard as I push any of my fighters. The results are, that in a hairy situation, that I am not constantly worrying about her getting hurt. She will be right there pounding on someone and IF she gets hit, she will shrug it off and keep going. When My Wife received her Sho-dan, she worked very hard and had to deal with some serious beatings from someof the guys in class who were considerably heavier than she was(we were on dating at that time). She fought through it and knocked some of them out during the course of her testing period and the months preceding.
> 
> As far as hitting My Wife, it happens everytime we spar. She pounds on me and I pound on her. It keeps her on top of her game and me as well. She gets asked at her work all of the time about bruises and such. She just tells them what they are from and that ends the conversation. People think we are nuts and maybe we are, but it the stuff hits the fan, we know what we each can do and it is a huge relief.


 

I think I'm jealous of you and bushidomartialarts man...and I'm sooo very glad and happy for you! I completely agree that our significant ladies should be able to handle themselves with confidence and competence,although I've never met a woman who's scored as many KO's over male martial artists as YOUR wife,searcher,seems to have done.That is THE GREATEST,man.Lololol.Please pass on my props and respect to mrs.searcher!


----------



## ATACX GYM

bushidomartialarts said:


> +1
> 
> My wife's tough, and a martial artist before we met. We met in a capoeira class, and she knocked out a guy who kept gouging my eye in a sparring class (kenpo, not capoeira).
> 
> But if we spar, it makes her cry. Purely psychological -- her hubby shouldn't hit her, under any circs.


 

Man,that's FANTASTIC that you met your wife in capoeira class! How did she KO that rat Mr. Eye Gouger? What technique did she use in your kenpo class to finish him?


----------



## bushidomartialarts

ATACX GYM said:


> Man,that's FANTASTIC that you met your wife in capoeira class! How did she KO that rat Mr. Eye Gouger? What technique did she use in your kenpo class to finish him?



It's even better than that. We grew up about 80 miles from each other and met in a capoeira class in Nagisaki, Japan.

The KO was just a brutal uppercut after a feinting jab that got the guy to snap his head back. Dude never fully lost consciousness, but he sat down and had to spend a few minutes before he knew where he was.

Sniff...sniff...that's my gal.


----------



## ATACX GYM

bushidomartialarts said:


> It's even better than that. We grew up about 80 miles from each other and met in a capoeira class in Nagisaki, Japan.
> 
> The KO was just a brutal uppercut after a feinting jab that got the guy to snap his head back. Dude never fully lost consciousness, but he sat down and had to spend a few minutes before he knew where he was.
> 
> Sniff...sniff...that's my gal.


 

OMFG! A Nagasaki Japan capoeirista with a sicc feint and a cold TKO uppercut?...

...Does she have a sister? Sisters? Girl friends?

Are you two military personnel?


----------



## bushidomartialarts

ATACX GYM said:


> OMFG! A Nagasaki Japan capoeirista with a sicc feint and a cold TKO uppercut?...
> 
> ...Does she have a sister? Sisters? Girl friends?
> 
> Are you two military personnel?



No sisters, and all our female friends have been married off. 

Not military. I was over there coaching a karate team. She was teaching English with the JET program.


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> None of this is either a diatribe or in any way racist or injecting race into this discussion.JOSH was the one who mentioned race first.I mentioned nationality and mindset.I'm not at all surprised to discover that you could read an objective commentary and NOT see that it lacks wholesale the things that you claim is within it.My post is on the effectiveness of capoeira along with the long documented effectiveness of what Twin Fist called the "twirly" stuff.The fact that I mentioned Portuguese slavers and racist Brazilian gentry is NOT an indication of me injecting RACE into the matter...it's proof that the mindset of the groups I specified are massively disinclined to write ANYTHING positive about capoeira and/or capoeiristas.The fact that the most extremely disapproving of those people opposed to the success and spread of capoeira and capoeristas left hundreds if not thousands of documents detailing its deadly effectiveness should be the final word on this matter.And it IS from a factual perspective.However,you...yorkshirelad...and Twin Fist are free to indulge your opinions however you like.As you should know,I have no probs with that.
> 
> The athletes of the roda are NOT indicative of actual combat capoeira.People like Anderson THE SPIDER Silva is and so am I.And we're not alone.


 
Anderson is an effective fighter, period! He could be training in tap dancing alone and he would be able to kick the crap out of an average guy. Mentioning the exception to the rule does not make your rather weak argument any more feasible!
You are a race baiter pure and simple. Anyone into pure history would've presented just the facts, but your commentary included some rather telling adjectives. But then again, you come from Amen's lineage so nuff sed! If i was to mention the black racists in Zimbabwe, who butchered white land owners a few years ago, and how well they fought off their racist attackers before being overwhelmed like injured lions fighting off a pack of hyenas, you would probably accuse me of being a race baiter. Get the message matey!


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> But then again, you come from Amen's lineage so nuff sed!


 
how is this relevant?  why is this a fair target for attack?


----------



## Josh Oakley

Just a shame they didn't have youtube in Brazil 100 years ago. I can't be the only one to recognize that the "vids or it didn't happen" mentality is a fallacy. You guys who want proof that capoeira is effective? Go train with a capoeirista. THEN decide. Discussion won't show anything.


----------



## Flying Crane

Josh Oakley said:


> Just a shame they didn't have youtube in Brazil 100 years ago. I can't be the only one to recognize that the "vids or it didn't happen" mentality is a fallacy. You guys who want proof that capoeira is effective? Go train with a capoeirista. THEN decide. Discussion won't show anything.


 

nah, all Youtube shows is how truly awful most people really are, regardless of what they are doing.

There is little, if anything, on Youtube that shows anything to establish any system's dominance or superiority or effectiveness.  All it shows is training sessions, drills, sparring, competition.  None of that caught on video really establishes anything at all.  It only shows what people WANT to show, which is surprisingly poor and in most cases ought to be hidden away and never spoken of again.

I am of the firm belief that most of the people are not even half as good as they believe they are, and that those who talk the loudest about it are in most cases probably among the worst.


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> how is this relevant? why is this a fair target for attack?


Because it seems that when Amen begins a 'discussion' on Martial arts, it, more often than not becomes political or racial. As does the teacher, so does the student!


----------



## yorkshirelad

Josh Oakley said:


> Just a shame they didn't have youtube in Brazil 100 years ago. I can't be the only one to recognize that the "vids or it didn't happen" mentality is a fallacy. You guys who want proof that capoeira is effective? Go train with a capoeirista. THEN decide. Discussion won't show anything.


I already did, on the beach in HB. I had a nice time, friendly people. It's a beautiful *DANCE*!!


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> nah, all Youtube shows is how truly awful most people really are, regardless of what they are doing.
> 
> There is little, if anything, on Youtube that shows anything to establish any system's dominance or superiority or effectiveness. All it shows is training sessions, drills, sparring, competition. None of that caught on video really establishes anything at all. It only shows what people WANT to show, which is surprisingly poor and in most cases ought to be hidden away and never spoken of again.
> 
> I am of the firm belief that most of the people are not even half as good as they believe they are, and that *those who talk the loudest about it are in most cases probably among the worst*.


Sound like anyone we know?


----------



## Twin Fist

Flying Crane said:


> how is this relevant?  why is this a fair target for attack?




lineage is fair game around here in some discussions. If a kenpo guy claimed rank from Adrian Roman, it would make their opinion less credible.

right?


----------



## Twin Fist

Flying Crane said:


> I am of the firm belief that most of the people are not even half as good as they believe they are, and that those who talk the loudest about it are in most cases probably among the worst.




agreed


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> Because it seems that when Amen begins a 'discussion' on Martial arts, it, more often than not becomes political or racial. As does the teacher, so does the student!


 

are you talking about Amen Santos?  I've not been aware of him in internet discussions, but I'm only here on MT and KenpoTalk.  If he engages discussion elsewhere I've not seen it.


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> Sound like anyone we know?


 
aye, point taken, and without naming names, I can think if a number of folks as well.


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> are you talking about Amen Santos? I've not been aware of him in internet discussions, but I'm only here on MT and KenpoTalk. If he engages discussion elsewhere I've not seen it.


 No, it's Amen Rhan. He's a regular on Kenponet and pisses people off by continually going on about race and how great he is.


----------



## jks9199

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It seems that hints are slipping past your notice.  This can be a great discussion -- or it can be locked and infractions issued.  Debate the ideas, not the po  Perhaps this is clearer:

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Super Moderator
*


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> No, it's Amen Rhan. He's a regular on Kenponet and pisses people off by continually going on about race and how great he is.



ah, I don't go on kenponet and I haven't encountered the fellow.


----------



## Josh Oakley

yorkshirelad said:


> I already did, on the beach in HB. I had a nice time, friendly people. It's a beautiful *DANCE*!!


 
At least you had some experience with it. I disagree with you based on my experience, but at least you aren't just lambasting it based on uninformed, unexperienced opinion.


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> No, it's Amen Rhan. He's a regular on Kenponet and pisses people off by continually going on about race and how great he is.


 

K,I've never seen Amen on kenponet and I have barely a few posts there.You guys may have more experience with Amen via the internet than I do,but I'm not in any great hurry to immediately frock your conclusions about him with any sort of concrete validity,considering how wildly inaccurate your interpretations of my posts are. For the record: JOSH brought up race first in capoeira,not I. He VERY CORRECTLY stated that one cannot have a genuine discussion of capoeira or capoeiristas without discussing the politics and history of race relations in Africa and Brazil. What I was limiting myself to pointing out was that these people are of the most wildly anti-capoeira,anti-capoeirista mindset humanly possible...and yet they left hundreds if not thousands of documents detailing the incredible effectiveness of capoeira and capoeristas under the worst of human circumstances (slavery). Slavers saying that they're terrified of the deadly effective capoeiristas and their capoeira is something on the order of Nazis saying that they're terrified of the deadly effectiveness of various European Jewish defense militias...who reside in Germany during Hitler's reign.You tend to BELIEVE these Nazis,because they more than anyone else are invested in crushing destroying and denigrating literally to the subhuman level European Jews so ANY compliment or positive statement by the Nazis regarding the ability of the European Jews would be wrenched from them by the most concrete and inescapable of circumstances. This is most definitely the case with capoeira and capoeiristas...over centuries.


----------



## Twin Fist

literally dozens of claims that the evil white slavers were "terrified" of the dancers, yet not one bit of evidence or proof

par for the course with this poster.


and better yet, who gives a crap?

the samurai were leery of the ninja back in the day, doesnt mean anything about modern day ninpo

200 years ago, pirates were scary, not so much any more.

relying on the past to prop up your stuff today is weak, lame and lazy.

AGAIN

if the dancing is not the "real" art, show us the real art.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> K,I've never seen Amen on kenponet and I have barely a few posts there.You guys may have more experience with Amen via the internet than I do,but I'm not in any great hurry to immediately frock your conclusions about him with any sort of concrete validity,considering how wildly inaccurate your interpretations of my posts are. For the record: JOSH brought up race first in capoeira,not I. He VERY CORRECTLY stated that one cannot have a genuine discussion of capoeira or capoeiristas without discussing the politics and history of race relations in Africa and Brazil. What I was limiting myself to pointing out was that these people are of the most wildly anti-capoeira,anti-capoeirista mindset humanly possible...and yet they left hundreds if not thousands of documents detailing the incredible effectiveness of capoeira and capoeristas under the worst of human circumstances (slavery). Slavers saying that they're terrified of the deadly effective capoeiristas and their capoeira is something on the order of Nazis saying that they're terrified of the deadly effectiveness of various European Jewish defense militias...who reside in Germany during Hitler's reign.You tend to BELIEVE these Nazis,because they more than anyone else are invested in crushing destroying and denigrating literally to the subhuman level European Jews so ANY compliment or positive statement by the Nazis regarding the ability of the European Jews would be wrenched from them by the most concrete and inescapable of circumstances. This is most definitely the case with capoeira and capoeiristas...over centuries.


Outside of capoeira history, do you have any *historical *documentation to back any of this up? 

People make all sorts of weird claims about martial arts, so I'm not singling you out. 

Go read up on the samurang. You'll need to go to a Haidong Geomdo page to do so, however, as outside of that martial art, there is no recorded existence of such a group in Korea.  Then there's the 'taekwondo is 2000 years old' claims, even though the art was derived mostly from a 20th century karate ryu.

Daniel


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> literally dozens of claims that the evil white slavers were "terrified" of the dancers, yet not one bit of evidence or proof
> 
> par for the course with this poster.


 


Again...centuries producing thousands of documents proving the exact opposite of your contentions.Again...Flying Crane,Josh,myself,other martial artists like bushidomartialarts and other people can tell you directly that there are capoeiristas who can fight. One of these worthy gentlemen met his wife in a capoeira class and she KO'd a man with a uppercut while sparring in their kenpo class.I am more than a little competent myself...and then there's the baddest man walking: Anderson Silva.I stated to you BEFORE I knew that others onsite also shared experiences similar to mine that there are an array of real capoeiristas out there who can fight; here on this site you have a direct link of "average" people to "above average people" all the way to the baddest h2h fighter on Earth: Anderson Silva,ALL claiming that capoeira works.Yet you--with a consistantly gigantic inaccuracy that I no longer consider to be amazing,seeing the pattern of your posts--sum this up as "par for the course with this poster". Have you even considered the import of the aggregate anecdotes and posts of people who hold a different opinion than you do about a art that you admittedly don't know about and don't train? 



Twin Fist said:


> and better yet, who gives a crap?
> 
> the samurai were leery of the ninja back in the day, doesnt mean anything about modern day ninpo
> 
> 200 years ago, pirates were scary, not so much any more.
> 
> relying on the past to prop up your stuff today is weak, lame and lazy.
> 
> AGAIN
> 
> if the dancing is not the "real" art, show us the real art.


 
I know that you,Twin Fist,have a storied immunity to logic and pretty much any opinion save your own. I'm not looking to "change your mind", I'm simply looking to inform the more sensibly inclined posters who may be drawn to this thread due to the massive amounts of disinformation about capoeira out there. I'm not the only one who's stated that the "real" stuff is nothing like what you commonly see...and your responses and position is disturbingly parallel those MMA meat heads who swear that MMA is the ship and all else the sea. "If it's not in the UFC? It's not for real!" For instance,the "real" kenpo is nothing like the "commercial" kenpo.We RARELY see the "real" kenpo.But omg is it REAL.The "real" kajukenbo doesn't even show itself in say THE UFC so people who (mistakenly) think that the UFC is the ultimate proving grounds for a martial arts' effectiveness would be virtually wholly uninformed about kaju and thus erroneously conclude that kajukenbo or FMA are unrealistic arts; IF they exist at all. Kaju is badass. I can say that from DIRECT experience. If you tried to tell these guys,Twin Fist,that kaju is this and kaju is that? Their whole perspective would be:"Yeah but it's not in the UFC so it's not real." And that is that for them.

But sallgood.

Oh yeah,just to correct your historical "facts"? There's a distinction between the role of the ninja--which has evolved and been overtaken by SpecOps and special police units etc. the world over--and ninpo,the ancient esoteric martial arts that comprised the "common" warrior arts as well as the brace of martial disciplines that were specific to the ancient ninja.You're misrepresenting the facts. Again. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060706-modern-pirates.html 

Due to the modern security and modern tech changing much of how travel is done (including maritime travel) there has been a plunge in the profitability of piracy,thus for centuries piracy has decreased almost to the point of nonexistence.I agree with you there.BUT recently--say over the last 10 years or thereabouts--the frequency of it has increased, and these people? Scary folks. Completely the opposite of the "not so much" assessment in your post.You're conflating the FREQUENCY of piracy with the SCARINESS OF THE PIRATES.They're NOT CLOSE TO THE SAME.So yeah,it's still scary. So much 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060706-modern-pirates.html


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Outside of capoeira history, do you have any *historical *documentation to back any of this up?
> 
> People make all sorts of weird claims about martial arts, so I'm not singling you out.
> 
> Go read up on the samurang. You'll need to go to a Haidong Geomdo page to do so, however, as outside of that martial art, there is no recorded existence of such a group in Korea. Then there's the 'taekwondo is 2000 years old' claims, even though the art was derived mostly from a 20th century karate ryu.
> 
> Daniel


 

I'm glad you asked.I believe that a few posters prior to myself have specifically answered this question and Flying Crane has an excellent link on this matter,but the short answer is:THE HISTORY OF BRAZIL ALSO INCLUDES THE HISTORY OF CAPOEIRA. So we don't have to go to any specific capoeira group's site or whatever to learn that capoeira is highly potent.You can go to youtube,dailymotion,etc. and see Anderson Silva vouching for the potency of capoeira and see him pulling off capoeira vs Cote,Leites,Maia,and others.Merely read the documents of the slavers and the subsequent builders of Brazilian society and the papers of the times an you will see numerous references to "capoeirsitas" and "disorders" and whatnot.You need not rely upon the oral tradition of capoeiristas alone; the overwhelming majority of the documents of the slavers and whatnot who comprised much of Brazil's gentry confirms this beyond any doubt.It's this combination of facts--the oral tradition and written tradition kept by the capoeiristas and the works of scholars like Nestor Capoeira's "Capoeira:Roots of the Dance Fight Game" and The jogo de Angola from Luanda to Cyberspace,Capoeira and Candomble by Floyd Merrell,etc.--that I and others have been consistently referring to over and over again during this discussion.

http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Jogo-Angola-Luanda-Cyberspace/dp/1556436017

http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Roots-Dance-Fight-Game-Nestor/dp/1556434049

http://books.google.com/books?id=Js...kQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Capoeira scholar&f=false


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Twin Fist said:


> literally dozens of claims that the evil white slavers were "terrified" of the dancers, yet not one bit of evidence or proof
> 
> par for the course with this poster.



Gotta go with the others on this. Capoeiristas led the majority of the slave rebellions in Brazil, including one so successful that the leadership was making headway towards recognition in Europe as an independent state. There's a reason the powers that were made it illegal, and it's not the quality of the music.

In terms of modern effectiveness, I've always viewed it as much like ninjutsu. Many of the skills that made it so dangerous were about stealth, tactical deception and using opportunistic or hidden weapons. These are still taught in some schools...most often Capoeira Angola...and you'll still occasionally see a razor blade between somebody's toes in competition.

As a guy who's studied Capoeira, Aikido, Kenpo, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Escrima and Krav seriously, and has used them in security and protection work.....I've never done a front flip in a tussle. I have used Capoeira's jinga to move through crowds and (much like my Muay Thai and Wrestling experience) the conditioning from training has definitely made a difference. 

It's also fair to say that there's a level of awareness training Capoeira included that the others did not....but to TF's point, it's the same awareness training I got from ballroom dance.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> I'm glad you asked.I believe that a few posters prior to myself have specifically answered this question and Flying Crane has an excellent link on this matter,but the short answer is:THE HISTORY OF BRAZIL ALSO INCLUDES THE HISTORY OF CAPOEIRA. So we don't have to go to any specific capoeira group's site or whatever to learn that capoeira is highly potent.You can go to youtube,dailymotion,etc. and see Anderson Silva vouching for the potency of capoeira and see him pulling off capoeira vs Cote,Leites,Maia,and others.Merely read the documents of the slavers and the subsequent builders of Brazilian society and the papers of the times an you will see numerous references to "capoeirsitas" and "disorders" and whatnot.You need not rely upon the oral tradition of capoeiristas alone; the overwhelming majority of the documents of the slavers and whatnot who comprised much of Brazil's gentry confirms this beyond any doubt.It's this combination of facts--the oral tradition and written tradition kept by the capoeiristas and the works of scholars like Nestor Capoeira's "Capoeira:Roots of the Dance Fight Game" and The jogo de Angola from Luanda to Cyberspace,Capoeira and Candomble by Floyd Merrell,etc.--that I and others have been consistently referring to over and over again during this discussion.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Jogo-Angola-Luanda-Cyberspace/dp/1556436017
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Roots-Dance-Fight-Game-Nestor/dp/1556434049
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=JsIaaPco-WwC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Capoeira+scholar&source=bl&ots=R6dbRKNbBO&sig=EhspgZWxNQgx1VHtFT4s60BlNkk&hl=en&ei=rWLBTajiEYKWsgOp2ejgBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Capoeira%20scholar&f=false


Okay, these are all capoeira books. I ask you again, *OUTSIDE OF CAPOERIRA* history and source material, do you have any historical documentation?

You say that the Portugese recorded this stuff. Where? 

If Chief Black Hawk Running Crow states that his tribe fought effectively against American forces during the United States' westward expansion, he can point to accounts written by US military personel detailing Custer's last stand to support this in addition to his tribal record of what happened.

Since you claim that the Portugese and the Nazis recorded this, then there should be source material *outside* of Capoeira books.

Can you provide any such references?

And please stop bringing up Anderson Silva. Acording to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Silva, his background is as follows:

_Although known primarily for his mastery of Muay thai striking, Silva is also a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu blackbelt, a rank he earned in 2006 from Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira who follows Gracie Lineage through Carlson Gracie, likewise Murilo Bustamante and the Brazilian Top Team. He began martial arts training at the age of 14, training Tae kwon do and earning a black belt by the age of 18.He is also a black belt in Judo and a yellow rope in Capoeira._

Not much capoeira in there as compared to Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, and Taekwondo. I'm sure that he uses what Capoeira he's learned in the ring effectively, but he uses a ton of other stuff too.

But aside from that, I specifically asked you about historical verification of the claims you made regarding capoeirista of a century past *as recorded by the Portugese*. Please furnish a reference to these outside sources that can be found outside of a book about capoeira. 

Anderson Silva, good as he is, is irrelevent to this.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

bushidomartialarts said:


> Gotta go with the others on this. Capoeiristas led the majority of the slave rebellions in Brazil, including one so successful that the leadership was making headway towards recognition in Europe as an independent state. There's a reason the powers that were made it illegal, and it's not the quality of the music.


Non capoeira history reference please.

Daniel


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## Flying Crane

I really don't care much about this whole argument to be honest.  Most people here have had no experience with capoeira outside of some youtube clips and are not in a position to speak intelligently about it.  Those people have a right to an opinion, tho that opinion is worthless.  A few people here have that necessary experience, and I am one of them.  I've tried to educate the readership here, but I get the feeling that some of the people have made up their minds and have decided to remain deliberately and opinionatedly ignorant.  If true, there's nothing I can say to change their minds and I really do not care.  It's a source of amusement, really.

However, I'll try one more time to educate on the topic, starting with my own background in capoeira so that you all know where my information and thoughts are coming from.

I trained capoeira obsessively for maybe 7 years, with the first year or two mostly working on my own with limited instruction.  I finally landed in San Francisco and trained under the San Francisco branch of ABADA group, which is headed by Mestre Camisa in Rio de Janiero.  Love him or hate him, Camisa is a big figure in the capoeira world.  My instructor was Mestranda Marcia Cigarra, one of the senior most instructors under Camisa.  In my time training with Marcia, I was ultimately graded as a "graduated student", which is something akin to what a shodan would be in an Asian art.  I was among the group of senior students at that time in our school, and I often taught and lead class training when Marcia was unavailable for one reason or other.  I drifted away from capoeira after I began studying the CHinese arts, tho a few years later I came back and resumed training for another 6 months or so before stopping again.  Ultimately I felt like the Chinese arts are where my true calling lies and that is what I train exclusively now.  It has been several years since I've trained in capoeira, tho I will visit the school on occasion.

Prior to training in capoeira, I had already been involved in the martial arts for a number of years, having ranked at shodan in Tracy lineage kenpo, and dabbled in a few other things along the way including a small bit of judo from a friend while in college. 

As I stated in my link to the other thread and in my posts in this thread, the GAME of capoeira is not the same as FIGHTING with capoeira.  They are two different aspects of the art.  In the United States I believe that most schools train for the game and not for the fight.  I've not been to Brazil and I've not experienced Capoeira elsewhere so I cannot speak for what others may be doing.  But from what I've observed it is my opinion that most people train for the game, and dangerously some of those folks BELIEVE they are training to fight, but they are not.  

In the game of capoeira, you find a lot more of the acrobatics, and the rythm and physical dialog are heavily emphasized.  This is because it is being played as a game, and these elements build the context and flavor and energy of that game.  It can be a lot of fun, and the game itself can range from very easy and gentle and friendly, all the way to harsh and hostile and nasty and painful and injurious.  But it's still the game and is not honest training to fight.

A criticism of my own is that people put too much emphasis on the acrobatics.  That is one thing I hate about what is often seen on Youtube: it's all acrobatics.  Seldom do we see the actual interaction and development of the physical dialog between the capoeiristas.  Instead we just see two people showing off with acrobatics that are out of context and give little or no development to the game itself.  One can play an excellent game with few or even no acrobatics at all.  But everyone wants to show off.  This is a criticism that holds for Modern Wushu as well: over the years the acrobatics have become more and more heavily emphasised to the point where it's become ridiculous and injurious to the athletes.  In my observations, I believe this is happening in a lot of capoeira schools as well.  People focus on the acrobatics to the detriment of the real skills.  We see outstanding gymnasts who cannot play a decent game.  And the problem is, it is reinforced by the people who don't know better and who just think the acrobatics are "cool", but do not understand how they need to fit properly within the context of the game, or they are stupid and pointless.  This kind of capoeira becomes a performance art, and not even a game anymore.

I believe that most of the acrobatics that we see in capoeira today are fairly new additions to the art.  They did not exist back when capoeira was primarily a fighting method.  As society has changed and the need to fight has diminished, capoeira changed and more and more acrobatics have been working into the art.  In my opinion, the capoeira of 250 years ago looked very little like what it looks today.  I believe it was more direct, very little by way of acrobatics, brutal, nasty, and decisive.  I do not believe the acrobatics had a strong place in capoeira, tho I hesitate to say they did not exist at all.

Today, people fool themselves into thinking that they are training to fight, when they are really training to play the game.  People fool themselves into believing they can use the acrobatics to fight.  I do not believe it, tho I can see theoretical use for them.  The problem is, lots of things look good on paper and seem to work with a training partner, but are not workable in the real world.  This is the same criticism I have for many of the kenpo techniques.  At any rate, my own capoeira school also trained for the game and not for the fight.  My own prior experiences with other martial arts gave me the insights to recognize the difference, even tho most of the people at that school did not.  But I recognize that capoeira isn't simply a bad style for fighting, but rather these are two aspects of the art and they need to be trained properly to realize what it has to offer.  To state that capoeira is no good, that capoeira cannot fight, is foolish and ignorant.  But to train for the game and practice all the acrobatics and then believe you can really fight with THAT aspect of capoeira, is likewise foolish.  There is a difference even tho most people who do capoeira (at least in the US) cannot see the difference.

To watch a game and see the acrobatics and hear the music and conclude: capoeira is a dance and cannot fight, is ignorant.  If that is what you believe, then you do not even know what you are looking at, and you do not know what you do not know.

That's about all I've got to say on it.  People who want to continue living in the dark will stub their toes.  I don't care.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

For slave rebellion, try

"Children of God's Fire: A Documentary History of Black Slavery in Brazil", Robert Conrad 
"Slave Rebellion in Brazil," Joao Reis 
"Slaves, Peasants & Rebels. Reconsidering Brazilian Slavery," Stuart Schwartz

Also look into the Palmares Republic, although the Zumbi folklore is a bit suspect.

Not going to go find a reference for the legal part. That's like asking for proof that weed is illegal in the US. And it obviously wasn't because of the music -- although there was certainly a racial/social aspect to the banning as well.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

bushidomartialarts said:


> For slave rebellion, try
> 
> "Children of God's Fire: A Documentary History of Black Slavery in Brazil", Robert Conrad
> "Slave Rebellion in Brazil," Joao Reis
> "Slaves, Peasants & Rebels. Reconsidering Brazilian Slavery," Stuart Schwartz
> 
> Also look into the Palmares Republic, although the Zumbi folklore is a bit suspect.
> 
> Not going to go find a reference for the legal part. That's like asking for proof that weed is illegal in the US. And it obviously wasn't because of the music -- although there was certainly a racial/social aspect to the banning as well.


Thank you!!  

That is the sort of material that I was asking for.

Daniel


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## Flying Crane

actually, some of those capoeira books are well researched and well documented and referenced.  They are not just written about capoeira off the top of someone's head based on verbal folklore passed from one generation to another.  Some of those books are scholarly works.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> actually, some of those capoeira books are well researched and well documented and referenced. They are not just written about capoeira off the top of someone's head based on verbal folklore passed from one generation to another. Some of those books are scholarly works.


Of that I have no doubt, but I tend to prefer direct source material for referencing historical events. Probably has to do with the amount of seemingly well researched urban legend in many MA books.

Also, another poster had made a comment about this stuff being only in capoeira history which capoeira wrote themselves.  Furnishing outside material is the best response to that.  

Furnishing more capoeira material and repeated references to some MMA fighter does nothing to address that.

Daniel


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## bushidomartialarts

To FC's point, if you're really interested pick up Gerard Taylor's histories. Exhaustively researched with solid scholarship. Good stuff.


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## Flying Crane

bushidomartialarts said:


> To FC's point, if you're really interested pick up Gerard Taylor's histories. Exhaustively researched with solid scholarship. Good stuff.


 
yeah, I recommned volume one over volume two, for the really meaty history stuff.  Volume two seemed a bit more fluffy, recent internet stuff and whatnot, not as deep as volume one.  But volume one is excellent.


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## Daniel Sullivan

My main concern is that in discussions where historical reference is made to outside sources recording events in an art's history, some reference to that outside sources material should be cited.  Particularly if one is going to invoke it repeatedly.

As for the premise of the thread, as I pointed out to Atacx, I really had no notion of capoeira *not* working until he brought up the topic.  

I have a general opinion that flashy stuff should not be taught as go to options in a self defense scenario, but that applies to every art, not just capoeira, and has no bearing on capoeira's overall effectiveness, as I am not qualified to comment on that.

Daniel


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## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As for the premise of the thread, as I pointed out to Atacx, I really had no notion of capoeira *not* working until he brought up the topic.
> 
> 
> Daniel


 
a very reasonable position overall, and the above portion is particularly interesting in its own right.


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## Josh Oakley

I think my main problem with this discussion is that there are those who have researched this material, and those that have not. I seems, with Daniel Sullivan being the notable exception, that those who have not researched this topic already have a negative view of capoiera, and don't intend to truly discuss the issue from an informed point of view. 

This becomes problematic because it makes true discourse almost impossible. Frankly I don't think many people involved in this discussion who haven't done capoiera or researched Brazil's history either don't care enough about the topic to do so, or don't have very good research methods. Either way, it's intellectual laziness, pure and simple. They can't claim they haven't got the time; they're posting on an internet forum. 

So at this point, I'm switching from active participant to lurker, because it's a waste of my time. I'm not interested in getting into another debate with someone who is coming from a point of ignorance who has already made up their minds on the argument. Nothing but love for those people, and I'm happy to discuss and debate with them on topics they ARE knowledgeable about, but this thread is an ouroboros, and I'm not fond of the taste of my tail.


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## yorkshirelad

bushidomartialarts said:


> jinga to move through crowds and (much like my Muay Thai and Wrestling experience) the conditioning from training has definitely made a difference.
> 
> .


If you were on a detail on mine and I saw you doing a "jinga to move through crowds", you would be fired at the end of the night.


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## bushidomartialarts

You fail to understand...or I failed to communicate clearly.

I of course did not stand there and move in an U-shaped pattern moving my hands in a pattern unfortunately similar to John Travolta dancing in pulp fiction.

I did, however, just like I was taught, use the balance, weight distribution and awareness of the movements of others -- which is what the jinga is -- to move through crowds much faster than I would have otherwise. 

Think about professional ballroom competition. They're doing cha-cha, but nobody's going "one/two/cha-cha-cha." That's just what you do until you learn how to "do it without doing it"


----------



## yorkshirelad

Josh Oakley said:


> I think my main problem with this discussion is that there are those who have researched this material, and those that have not. I seems, with Daniel Sullivan being the notable exception, that those who have not researched this topic already have a negative view of capoiera, and don't intend to truly discuss the issue from an informed point of view.
> 
> .


 I love Aikido. I continue to train in Aiki, but I don't think it is an effective art when practised alone. I think the art is beautiful, but I don't think Aikikai Aikido, Daito ryu even Tomiki is advisable for self protection. If we read the 'history' books concerning Takeda Sokaku, we are told of a tiny man who killed dozens of bigger, tougher men using his art. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but if he did, he was just a tough man who was trained in Daito ryu. This doesn't make Daito ryu effective, or even it's latter form of Aikido. I too have trained just a little in Capoeira, and personally I don't think it's effective for self protection. It's great for fitness, flexibility and meeting hot chicks though, so in that respect, it has my vote.


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> I love Aikido. I continue to train in Aiki, but I don't think it is an effective art when practised alone. I think the art is beautiful, but I don't think Aikikai Aikido, Daito ryu even Tomiki is advisable for self protection. If we read the 'history' books concerning Takeda Sokaku, we are told of a tiny man who killed dozens of bigger, tougher men using his art. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but if he did, he was just a tough man who was trained in Daito ryu. This doesn't make Daito ryu effective, or even it's latter form of Aikido. I too have trained just a little in Capoeira, and personally I don't think it's effective for self protection. It's great for fitness, flexibility and meeting hot chicks though, so in that respect, it has my vote.


 

Imo this is a better and more balanced post than some others of yours that I have read on this thread.Thank you for sharing this.

 I am more than a little familiar with aikido and hapkido (trained with GM Chu,a Hung Gar Master,Hapkido 6th dan certified from Korea,ex-Hwarangdo Master and,a Korean of real serious skills and old skool sensibilities).My response regarding the effectiveness of ANY martial art is: "IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN." Aikido,tai chi,bagua,capoeira,Daito Ryu,etc. is every bit as lethal as "STOMP YOUR NADS-FU"...depending upon how it's trained.Period. Read this article about aikido:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=631


Btw I used the ginga while striking juking etc. to thread my way through a rowdy,drunk,hard partying crowd that was half mosh pit half sexcapade here in Long Beach CA some years ago during the JAZZ FESTIVAL and THE PRIDE PARADE celebration.It's extremely effective.The footwork footwork footwork is ABSOLUTELY VITAL in capoeira.I've found that merging my capoeira footwork with boxing tkd aikido hapkido and kali footwork supercharged my offense and defense because boxing tkd aikido hapkido and kali helped me to unlock the functional arsenal of capoeira's footwork,and capoeira's footwork became much much more complete than the footwork of boxing kickboxing tkd aikido hapkido and kali alone or together,imo.It has to be experienced to be grasped and believed.You flow through crowds like a combo of Barry Sanders in his prime shredding defenses,a skilled and seasoned dancer,a free runner and a shark...playing Red Rover.Lol.It's hard to explain but when you get it? You got it.


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## Twin Fist

and again, for the last time, if it is soooooo awesome

show us 

dont tell us

dont bore me with ancient history

dont SAY anything

show us

show us some self defense capoeira that doesnt include any cartwheels or handstands, music or 50 guys standing around looking funky

SHOW US the REAL stuff

cuz untill then, it is all just claims and tall tales.


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## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> I love Aikido. I continue to train in Aiki, but I don't think it is an effective art when practised alone. I think the art is beautiful, but I don't think Aikikai Aikido, Daito ryu even Tomiki is advisable for self protection. If we read the 'history' books concerning Takeda Sokaku, we are told of a tiny man who killed dozens of bigger, tougher men using his art. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but if he did, he was just a tough man who was trained in Daito ryu. This doesn't make Daito ryu effective, or even it's latter form of Aikido. I too have trained just a little in Capoeira, and personally I don't think it's effective for self protection. It's great for fitness, flexibility and meeting hot chicks though, so in that respect, it has my vote.


 
what this really means is, in the experience that you had with these methods, for YOU, it's not a good match and does not work. This does not mean that these systems, objectively and as a whole, do not work for anyone.

hell, I see too many problems with kenpo to put much stock in it, but a whole lot of other people believe it works well for them.  OK then, not good for me, but good for someone else.  If I started shouting it down and insisting that it's simply no good, would you accept my arguments?  The fact that I've actually trained to shodan level in a kenpo lineage actually gives me SOME credibility in the discussion.  What if I had none, or next to zero, experience in kenpo, yet I insisted based on what I saw on Youtube?


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## Twin Fist

I dont know that any style or styles are all that better than any other style or styles in general. 

I mean, everyone punches, everyone kicks, there isnt much to really seperate the arts, and what makes them unique is usually the stuff that doesnt work.

the success is in the PERSON doing it.

most of the time anyway


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

yorkshirelad said:


> I love Aikido. I continue to train in Aiki, but I don't think it is an effective art when practised alone. I think the art is beautiful, but I don't think Aikikai Aikido, Daito ryu even Tomiki is advisable for self protection. If we read the 'history' books concerning Takeda Sokaku, we are told of a tiny man who killed dozens of bigger, tougher men using his art. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but if he did, he was just a tough man who was trained in Daito ryu. This doesn't make Daito ryu effective, or even it's latter form of Aikido. I too have trained just a little in Capoeira, and personally I don't think it's effective for self protection. It's great for fitness, flexibility and meeting hot chicks though, so in that respect, it has my vote.


Now I have a lot more knowledge of aikido and train in a similar art (hapkido).  Technique wise, aikido is just fine for self protection.  The occasional story pops up that tells of someone using aikido to defend against an attacker, though such stories are found about other arts as well.  

From what I have heard and read of aikido, the primary issue is that it seems to be taught in something of a bubble, wherein you defend against less than realistic attacks and the attacker cooperates with you as you apply your defense.  

Aikido is hardly alone in this, but in aikido's defense, a lot of people seem to train in it as more of a lifestyle than for actual self defense, and the art is often called 'the way of peace.'  Certainly, if I ever find the time to do so, I will train in aikido for the richness of the art and because I love wearing a hakama.

My personal observation has been that, when trained in and applied to self defense, most arts tend to look more similar than different.

Daniel


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## bushidomartialarts

Twin Fist said:


> I dont know that any style or styles are all that better than any other style or styles in general.
> 
> I mean, everyone punches, everyone kicks, there isnt much to really seperate the arts, and what makes them unique is usually the stuff that doesnt work.
> 
> the success is in the PERSON doing it.
> 
> most of the time anyway



Bingo. Absolutely agreed. I'd add that there are better combinations of body type and mindset with specific arts -- there are reasons that my 6'7" brother is in a kicking art and little old 5'11" me went primarily for kenpo and grappling. 

Out of curiosity, TF, and I don't mean to just pick on you....how does this jive with all the railing you've been doing about how capoeira sucks?


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## Twin Fist

re-read what I wrote:

"there isnt much to really seperate the arts, and what makes them unique is usually the stuff that doesnt work."

tkd has its stupid silly assed high kicks, this has the lambada, 

neither is a good idea when it's REAL

and you are right about body combinations, shorter people with barrel chests? karate will work good for their bodies, tall long legs? look at tkd


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## bushidomartialarts

Missed the intent first time through. You remain, even when we disagree, entirely consistent.


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## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> I dont know that any style or styles are all that better than any other style or styles in general.
> 
> I mean, everyone punches, everyone kicks, there isnt much to really seperate the arts, and what makes them unique is usually the stuff that doesnt work.
> 
> the success is in the PERSON doing it.
> 
> most of the time anyway


 

I tend to lean toward the combination of person and system,with a 55/45 split toward person over system in importance.For instance,I think Anderson Silva would still be a good taichi guy,but he's thee best and probably the G.O.A.T. MMA guy. I think that the method of training--the functional training of head kicks etc.--combined with the person training directly impacts and maximizes the feasibility of said techniques.Head kicks are reliable,if you train them to be reliable.They show up too many times throughout history and will continue to do so.The more acrobatic roda movements in capoeira are not designed for combat,they're designed for the roda.Physical attributes enhancement,etc. We seem to agree with the principles--punches kicks blocks footwork head movement weaponry practical focus functional training mandate self-defense trumps sport combat--but we differ in some of the signal specifics of how we determine and apply these specifics.


----------



## yorkshirelad

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now I have a lot more knowledge of aikido and train in a similar art (hapkido). Technique wise, aikido is just fine for self protection. The occasional story pops up that tells of someone using aikido to defend against an attacker, though such stories are found about other arts as well.
> 
> Daniel


I too love both Aikido and Hapkido. I trined in a combination of Aikido and Jujutsu unber the Abe Kenshiro lineage in England from a young age under both my father, and Peter Garside sensei, who was a deshi of Abbe himself. I also have a chodan in Sin moo hapkido and have been in the fortunate position to have picked Do ju Nim's brains on a few occasions.
Aikido was developed in it's present form as spiritual development through a physical practise. The control series in Aikido, Ikajo through gokyo do not work against attacks that involve momentum, like punches, kicks and weapon attacks, but they are trained against these attacks. They look good in the dojo, but you'd have to be mental to try this out agaist a thug intent on kicking your head in. That's not to say that componants of Aikido cannot be used effectively by the average guy. The same techniques can be used against stationary attacks like, grabs and chokes, when used in conjunction with a plethora of atemi-waza, but these techniques have to be taught in an effective manner. Ukemi waza is also very useful in a self protection sense as the average person is far more likely to trip, fall and seriously hurt yourself, then get battered in a street fight.

When I see someone in a video claim to be teaching self protection tacticsand the guy goes into a hand stand, I will instantly dismiss it as foolish, because it is. Sure, there are probably many useful self-protection facets to Capoeira, but as a self protection art alone, it doesn't hold water.


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## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> They look good in the dojo, but you'd have to be mental to try this out agaist a thug intent on kicking your head in.


 
I disagree, I've seem some aikidoists who can definitely take care of business. it works, tho like anything, not everyone can make it work for them. it's not a good fit for everyone.



> When I see someone in a video claim to be teaching self protection tacticsand the guy goes into a hand stand, I will instantly dismiss it as foolish, because it is.


 
agreed.



> Sure, there are probably many useful self-protection facets to Capoeira, *but as a self protection art alone, it doesn't hold water*.


 
disagree. This is where you do not understand what capoeira is and has to offer.

If it ain't your thing, that's cool.  But there's a BIG BIG difference between "It ain't your thing" and "it's no good and doesn't work".


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## Twin Fist

dont make me post it again, PLEASE


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## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> When I see someone in a video claim to be teaching self protection tacticsand the guy goes into a hand stand, I will instantly dismiss it as foolish, because it is. Sure, there are probably many useful self-protection facets to Capoeira, but as a self protection art alone, it doesn't hold water.


 


I'ts not a handstand it's a cartwheel,but as usual (even when it IS a handstand) you uttterly miss the significance of the movements in capoeira.So cartwheel and rolling attacks like wheel kicks (which are straight from capoeira) don't work,huh? Head kicks and twirly stuff don't work,huh? Okay,this is the final factual word on this.For you and Twin Fist's visual edification,and for the viewing pleasure of all on this site I present cartwheel kicks,rolling attacks and kicks,scissor leg takedowns,spin jump and all manner of twirly stuff kicks,running ricochet attacks kicks takedowns,and more...ALL DONE IN REAL TIME WHILE FIGHTING.And oh my stars and garters this stuff has been getting done FOREVER,factually directly contradicting and invalidating opinions to the contrary regarding its effectiveness.In short...like I and many others have been saying for the longest...the functionality of these techniques are directly link to the functionality of your training and the attributes of the people doing it.And you DON'T have to be superhumans to pull these techniques off,either.

MMA,kickboxing,hardcore MT,karate cartwheel kick KO's 





 




 




 




 

let kyokushin karate show you wheel kicks (no hand cartwheel kicks and spin kicks),spin kicks,axe kick,round house head kicks,sweep kicks,etc. KOs





 




 




 




 




 
Here's one of your irish lads doing a cartwheel kick too,while sparring light contact,and other "impossible" stuff like scissor leg takedowns that's been done for centuries.And whoooaaaah these guys aren't all supermen too,soooo REGULAR folks can do this too?





 




 




 




 




 




 




 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-x6npb4Go0&feature=related





 




 




 




 




 




 


So there ya go with some more video evidence that says YES YOU CAN DO THESE KICKS REAL TIME VS SKILLED OPPONENTS NO MATTER THE VENUE.If you don't train it? Fine.If YOU don't believe that capoeira's more surprising techs aren't viable for self-defense? Fine.But to continue to claim that they're not viable is simply utterly untrue. Now it's clear that you don't PREFER them.Okay.That's cool. You state that these flashier techniques aren't feasible.No they're FEASIBLE,they're just not designed to be employed with the kind of back-toback regularity as various other techs.The spinning back fist,for instance,is BRUTALLY EFFECTIVE,but you don't want to make a habit of loading up that punch without sufficient setup in order to maximize the chance of landing it.

In other words?

ATACX GYM MOTTO:"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."


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## Twin Fist

it is pretty apparent that you think competition is "real"

so that lets anyone that wants to bother continuing this discourse with you know what to expect: if they say "self defense" you will once again drag out some **** from a tournament or mma

really looking like your only experience is watching mma and tournaments.

which is fine, except you like to make yourself sound like Patrick Swaze in Roadhouse 

bored now.


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## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> it is pretty apparent that you think competition is "real"
> 
> so that lets anyone that wants to bother continuing this discourse with you know what to expect: if they say "self defense" you will once again drag out some **** from a tournament or mma
> 
> really looking like your only experience is watching mma and tournaments.
> 
> which is fine, except you like to make yourself sound like Patrick Swaze in Roadhouse
> 
> bored now.


 

It is pretty apparent that you think that there is a great wealth of readily available to he average person video of real time,real life self-defense "fight for your life" videos showing ANYBODY doing ANY thing.In the absence of that,we're left with the more abundant video clips showing sports combatives applied h2h against people who are better trained,better skilled,better able than you guys who claim S-D are.I'm a S-D proponent myself,but I clearly see that if you can jab a boxer,you can jab a untrained street guy. Try your lovely h2h self-defense techniques on these guys in the video clips that I put up. 9 out of 10 of them will hand you your hat...with your bruised gluteus still inside of it.And you'll be too steeped in denial to acknowledge what just happened.

so that lets anyone that wants to bother continuing this discourse with you know what to expect: a mind that's completely unable to correlate techs that can be used in self-defense AND sports combat,and a mind that sadly confuses its opinions for objective reality. which is fine, except you like to make yourself sound like Eddie Murphy on "Trading Places". When you get hit with one of these techs that you claim to be impossible right after you denigrate posts like mine,you'll "bruise on the inside" too.

http://youtu.be/vOAYURCY2RM


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## Twin Fist

you have fun trying that out.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> I'ts not a handstand it's a cartwheel,but as usual (even when it IS a handstand) you uttterly miss the significance of the movements in capoeira.So cartwheel and rolling attacks like wheel kicks (*which are straight from capoeira*) don't work,huh?


If you are referring to the wheel kick in Kyokushin, please provide some verification that this came from capoeira.



ATACX GYM said:


> Head kicks and twirly stuff don't work,huh? Okay,this is the final factual word on this.For you and Twin Fist's visual edification,and for the viewing pleasure of all on this site I present cartwheel kicks,rolling attacks and kicks,scissor leg takedowns,spin jump and all manner of twirly stuff kicks,running ricochet attacks kicks takedowns,and more...ALL DONE IN REAL TIME WHILE FIGHTING.And oh my stars and garters this stuff has been getting done FOREVER,factually directly contradicting and invalidating opinions to the contrary regarding its effectiveness.In short...like I and many others have been saying for the longest...the functionality of these techniques are directly link to the functionality of your training and the attributes of the people doing it.And you DON'T have to be superhumans to pull these techniques off,either.
> 
> MMA,kickboxing,hardcore MT,karate cartwheel kick KO's
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> Here's one of your irish lads doing a cartwheel kick too,while sparring light contact,and other "impossible" stuff like scissor leg takedowns that's been done for centuries.And whoooaaaah these guys aren't all supermen too,soooo REGULAR folks can do this too?
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> So there ya go with some more video evidence that says YES YOU CAN DO THESE KICKS REAL TIME VS SKILLED OPPONENTS NO MATTER THE VENUE.If you don't train it? Fine.If YOU don't believe that capoeira's more surprising techs aren't viable for self-defense? Fine.But to continue to claim that they're not viable is simply utterly untrue. Now it's clear that you don't PREFER them.Okay.That's cool. You state that these flashier techniques aren't feasible.No they're FEASIBLE,they're just not designed to be employed with the kind of back-toback regularity as various other techs.The spinning back fist,for instance,is BRUTALLY EFFECTIVE,but you don't want to make a habit of loading up that punch without sufficient setup in order to maximize the chance of landing it.
> 
> In other words?
> 
> ATACX GYM MOTTO:"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."


Regular folks can learn to do this stuff, but most regular folks don't have the time to train such moves to effectiveness.  In fact, most regular folks are out of shape and in many cases, obese.  

I am in very good condition, hold dan grades in several arts and I cannot do a cartwheel.  So it goes without saying that I cannot do a handstand and it definitely goes without saying that I cannot do a wheel kick or any techniques that are preceded by a cartwheel.

And at almost forty five years of age, learning to do cartwheels is very low on my list.  Could I learn?  If you were in my class and offered to show me how to do the kick, heck yes, I'd try.  But mainly to stretch the limits of what I can do, not because I'd want to use it in self defense.  Cant use it in competition either; no bamboo sticks involved.  

I'm not going to tell you that nobody can pull off such a move in self defense.  But for most people, it would be beyond them, even after training for a few years.

People who can do that stuff effectively tend to be the same people who are good at gymnastics.

However, when you're sixty seven years old, are you really going to cartwheel kick a mugger?  Most guys that age that can still do that stuff started when they were way young and train regularly to maintain that ability.  Most guys, even those who train regularly, write off stuff like that by the time they're that age.

Competition videos are cool, but keep in mind that most successful competitors are under the age of thirty.  

Daniel


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## Twin Fist

And that reality has rules, and competitions dont have the bad guys brother standing behind you with a beer bottle in his hand, and that .....oh forget it.


still bored


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## searcher

Sorry, but I have not read the last couple of pages closely.    

I see we are on cartwheels?(help me if I am off a bit).     Can a cartwheel be used in some martial manor?    Yes, I have used a variation in a point fighting match(point fighting mind you).    Would I try it in knockdown, kickboxing, or on the street?     Only if I wanted to get seriously hurt.     If I am in a fight(street or FC) and someone cartwheels, they are going to get maimed in short order.     This is a fight, not a gymnastics competition.     I am sure this stuff is all the rage in the movies and non-contact circles, but those of us that live in the FC/KB/KD world will never use this stuff.     Maybe the THEORY sounds valid, but the application of the technique has yet to be validated.


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## Daniel Sullivan

searcher said:


> Sorry, but I have not read the last couple of pages closely.
> 
> I see we are on cartwheels?(help me if I am off a bit). Can a cartwheel be used in some martial manor? Yes, I have used a variation in a point fighting match(point fighting mind you). Would I try it in knockdown, kickboxing, or on the street? Only if I wanted to get seriously hurt. If I am in a fight(street or FC) and someone cartwheels, they are going to get maimed in short order. This is a fight, not a gymnastics competition. I am sure this stuff is all the rage in the movies and non-contact circles, but those of us that live in the FC/KB/KD world will never use this stuff. Maybe the THEORY sounds valid, but the application of the technique has yet to be validated.


One of the kicks being touted in several of the vids is a cartwheel/handstand/whatever you want to call it kick that involves going upsidedown and kicking your opponent in the face.  Capoeira is not the only art that uses kicks like this.  The wheel kick from Kyokushin has been mentioned, but that is not a cartwheel.  If it is what I think it is, its more like a big, circular axe kick.  Not something that I'd use in self defense regardless.

Daniel


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## searcher

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The wheel kick from Kyokushin has been mentioned, but that is not a cartwheel. If it is what I think it is, its more like a big, circular axe kick. Not something that I'd use in self defense regardless.
> 
> Daniel


 

I am gonna take a stab and guess it is Domawashi Kaiten Geri.   





 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdfLBn4OYCM&feature=related

If it is the one in question, I will shed more light on it.


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## Twin Fist

you throw that, you better HOPE it knocks them out, cuz if it doesnt? you gonna die


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## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regular folks can learn to do this stuff, but most regular folks don't have the time to train such moves to effectiveness. In fact, most regular folks are out of shape and in many cases, obese.
> 
> I am in very good condition, hold dan grades in several arts and I cannot do a cartwheel. So it goes without saying that I cannot do a handstand and it definitely goes without saying that I cannot do a wheel kick or any techniques that are preceded by a cartwheel.
> 
> And at almost forty five years of age, learning to do cartwheels is very low on my list. Could I learn? If you were in my class and offered to show me how to do the kick, heck yes, I'd try. But mainly to stretch the limits of what I can do, not because I'd want to use it in self defense. Cant use it in competition either; no bamboo sticks involved.
> 
> I'm not going to tell you that nobody can pull off such a move in self defense. But for most people, it would be beyond them, even after training for a few years.
> 
> People who can do that stuff effectively tend to be the same people who are good at gymnastics.
> 
> However, when you're sixty seven years old, are you really going to cartwheel kick a mugger? Most guys that age that can still do that stuff started when they were way young and train regularly to maintain that ability. Most guys, even those who train regularly, write off stuff like that by the time they're that age.
> 
> Competition videos are cool, but keep in mind that most successful competitors are under the age of thirty.
> 
> Daniel


 
This seems to imply that for a method to fit your definition of a valid fighting art, it needs to be accessible to everyone. I would disagree with that. Just because not everyone can do something does not mean it's not viable at all, because there are those who can do it.

I'd say that the martial arts as a whole are not accessible to everyone. When it's done well, and trained properly, any martial art is too demanding for the majority of the masses. That's just the way it is, it's not meant as a put-down to those who are not capable.

I've seen video of many old capoeira mestres playing some pretty outstanding games well into their 70s and even 80s. They were not doing crazy radical stuff, but they were still well able to move fluidly and even do some of the more basic acrobatics like a cartwheel. But what was most evident was their ability to control the opponenent and play circles around them effortlessly, often against younger, stronger, and faster opponents. This is the wisdom and skill that comes with age and experience, and the recognition that the acrobatics are not what make a capoeirista effective. It's the basics and solid technique that matter far far more.

Like any martial art, capoeira can be practiced well into old age, if done properly. This is a better bet if the capoeirista began at a young age and trained thru life into old age. Like any martial art.

It is more difficult if an elderly and out of shape person begins training capoeira long after his physical prime. But this is also true of any martial art.

The martial arts are not for everyone, regardless of style. No single system is equally workable for everyone who tries it. Some people can use it effectively, while others cannot. Life isn't equal in that way. It's still a valid system of fighting, for those who understand it. Blanket statements to the contrary are nothing but a display of ignorance. (that last comment not aimed at you specifically, Daniel).


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## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> *This seems to imply that for a method to fit your definition of a valid fighting art, it needs to be accessible to everyone.* I would disagree with that. Just because not everyone can do something does not mean it's not viable at all, because there are those who can do it.
> 
> I'd say that the martial arts as a whole are not accessible to everyone. When it's done well, and trained properly, any martial art is too demanding for the majority of the masses. That's just the way it is, it's not meant as a put-down to those who are not capable.
> 
> I've seen video of many old capoeira mestres playing some pretty outstanding games well into their 70s and even 80s. They were not doing crazy radical stuff, but they were still well able to move fluidly and even do some of the more basic acrobatics like a cartwheel. But what was most evident was their ability to control the opponenent and play circles around them effortlessly, often against younger, stronger, and faster opponents. This is the wisdom and skill that comes with age and experience, and the recognition that the acrobatics are not what make a capoeirista effective. It's the basics and solid technique that matter far far more.
> 
> Like any martial art, capoeira can be practiced well into old age, if done properly. This is a better bet if the capoeirista began at a young age and trained thru life into old age. Like any martial art.
> 
> It is more difficult if an elderly and out of shape person begins training capoeira long after his physical prime. But this is also true of any martial art.
> 
> The martial arts are not for everyone, regardless of style. No single system is equally workable for everyone who tries it. Some people can use it effectively, while others cannot. Life isn't equal in that way. It's still a valid system of fighting, for those who understand it. Blanket statements to the contrary are nothing but a display of ignorance.


Regarding the bolded first sentence, not at all. I am refering *strictly* to acrobatic techniques and their viability in a self defense situation. 

I think that I have been very clear about that and have also taken great pains to avoid broadbrushing Capoeira in this thread.  Certainly, I agree with your post, but you are responding to a point that I never made.

My feelings about how systems are categorized is one that I have shared with you before and is entirely unrelated to accessiblity or even effectiveness.

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regarding the bolded first sentence, not at all. I am refering *strictly* to acrobatic techniques and their viability in a self defense situation.
> 
> I think that I have been very clear about that and have also taken great pains to avoid broadbrushing Capoeira in this thread.
> 
> My feelings about how systems are categorized is one that I have shared with you before and is entirely unrelated to accessiblity or even effectiveness.
> 
> Daniel


 
I think your involvement in this discussion has been reasonable and balanced, and I understand we are coming from different perspectives and experiences so there is bound to be some disagreement.

Overall I agree with your position on acrobatics being a risky strategy for self defense, and it's my belief that they never really were meant to be that in capoeira.  Capoeira developed along these lines in more recent times, after the need to fight for one's life became radically diminished.  I can see some possible usefulness for some of them.  For example, I can see a cartwheel as a useful possibility to recover from a push or trip, where you might otherwise fall.  One could roll-fall, or break-fall, or cartwheel and reposition.  In that kind of context I can see some possible use.  If you've never trained a cartwheel, then that resource doesn't exist for you if you need it.  But OK, you can still roll-fall or break-fall.

In a very limited way I can see some of these movements having some plausible use.  But to think that you will just openly go into acrobatics as a way of fighting, I agee that it's not good strategy.  But I maintain that I do not believe they were every meant to be used that way.  It is unfortunate that many (most?) capoeiristas today misunderstand that about their own art.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Flying Crane said:


> This seems to imply that for a method to fit your definition of a valid fighting art, it needs to be accessible to everyone. I would disagree with that. Just because not everyone can do something does not mean it's not viable at all, because there are those who can do it.
> 
> I'd say that the martial arts as a whole are not accessible to everyone. When it's done well, and trained properly, any martial art is too demanding for the majority of the masses. That's just the way it is, it's not meant as a put-down to those who are not capable.
> 
> I've seen video of many old capoeira mestres playing some pretty outstanding games well into their 70s and even 80s. They were not doing crazy radical stuff, but they were still well able to move fluidly and even do some of the more basic acrobatics like a cartwheel. But what was most evident was their ability to control the opponenent and play circles around them effortlessly, often against younger, stronger, and faster opponents. This is the wisdom and skill that comes with age and experience, and the recognition that the acrobatics are not what make a capoeirista effective. It's the basics and solid technique that matter far far more.
> 
> Like any martial art, capoeira can be practiced well into old age, if done properly. This is a better bet if the capoeirista began at a young age and trained thru life into old age. Like any martial art.
> 
> It is more difficult if an elderly and out of shape person begins training capoeira long after his physical prime. But this is also true of any martial art.
> 
> The martial arts are not for everyone, regardless of style. No single system is equally workable for everyone who tries it. Some people can use it effectively, while others cannot. Life isn't equal in that way. It's still a valid system of fighting, for those who understand it. Blanket statements to the contrary are nothing but a display of ignorance. (that last comment not aimed at you specifically, Daniel).


 

I was going to reply more at length,but Flying Crane said most of what I was going to say,so I'll just add in the few things that he didn't say:

Daniel,if you're in good condition and have sufficient flexibility to touch your toes? I'll teach you to cartwheel within 2 days.Oftentimes within 20 minutes.It's a simple thing to do.If you can't touch your toes? I'll have you touching your toes or being very close to it in 7-14 days TOPS.Fact is? If you have the proper performance oriented functional training? This isn't hard to do...for the average person.Someone who's fit will learn it much faster.I've never had an athlete take longer than 20 minutes to learn to cartwheel.I've had athletes who suck at flexibility,so we worked for about 10 days on that.Once the flexibility issue was corrected? Cartwheel done in usually 10-20 minutes of work.

Twin Fist,and all other SD guys who correctly state that sports combatives have rules: I agree with you there.I frequently make that arguement myself.However,what you guys miss is the bare knuckle fact that if you train athletically for self-defense,you have merged the best of both worlds: high performance athleticism superior to most with the range of conditions one faces in SD.Athletic SD practitioners can have and will pull off cartwheel kicks head kicks spin and jump kicks in self-defense scenarios because frankly the people they are facing tend to lack both the athleticism and the arsenal to defend against the SD athlete. I train REGULARLY vs armed multifights.The cartwheel,dive roll escape,and other moves ARE HIGHLY EFFECTIVE THERE TOO.Know why? I and my students are very proficient in its use and the other guys are shocked by such a move...allowing us MORE TIME THAN USUAL to execute whatever else we have in mind.So that guy whose buddy has a bottle,Twin Fist? Yeah,BOTH of them will be shocked,and I can keep on keepin on while they're goin:"wtf did he just..?".And I can cartwheel and dive roll to ESCAPE or change the distance between me and those guys too...whereas they can't.Bottom line? Like any other technique that has a major suprise element to it (like throws sweep head kicks,etc)? IT WORKS WHEN TRAINED AND DONE PROPERLY.People used to disrespect the combat shoulder roll toward and away from cover,too.Remember? 

Plus you guys keep changing your arguments.First you say the techs don't work.I say they do.You say SHOW ME.I show you.You claim that the guys I show in the clips doing what you say can't be done are exceptional and can do ANYTHING so they're not good examples.Well,first? If the guys I'm showing in vids are doing the techniques I said? That's PROOF IT CAN BE AND IS BEING DONE.That should change your stance RIGHT THERE. So yes cartwheels,head and spin kicks,sweeps,scissor leg takedowns,etc. can be done and they can be done vs high end combat athletes and in self-defense and it IS being done in self-defense.Your contentions are wrong.Period.Your PREFERENCES are against those techs and that's cool.No prob.I'd even agree wtih you that for the most part? Keep things KISS in SD.With you there.Agree.But your blanket statements have been proven to be false.

2nd point:After proving that what you said can't be done CAN and IS being done,you guys contend that showing vids of sports combatants doing these techs somehow invalidate it for self-defense.No.Depends on how you train the tech.Let me put it another way: Anderson Silva,Kim Do,Raymond Daniels,me and a bunch of other people will head kick some nonathletic guy EVEN EASIER than we would a highly conditioned highly skilled athletic guy in a sports combat environment.Why? The highly athletic,conditioned skilled sports guy is trained against prepped for and expecting the head kicks;plus has the arsenal to be a threat. The regular shmoe with a beer bottle isn't any of those things.So I'll bridge the gap between me and ole regular smhoe,wrap-disarm,clinch,head butt,knee,and if he isn't TKO'd? I'll push him off and right into a full powered head kick.Done it MUCHO times.Did it in the Queen Mary working a special security detail and the place turned into a chair throwing,beer bottle hurling,fist fighting everybody rushing to and fro riot. Only me and 3 other guys on the bottom floor with 250 guests,while the rest of the secutity detail were ensconed on the next two floors up.My ability to roll helped too because we rolled under a number of thrown chairs and we were able to get to our respective posts.I saw a girl getting slapped and a guy getting stomped and I used a combination of movement methods including the ginga to get to each of them and prevent further damage (couldn't catch the girls double teaming the girl in the corner as they ran away,but I did catch the guys stomping the downed man and arrested them both,and my presence prevented both of the parties in duress from suffering further harm) .Did it in Southeast Los Angeles AND S.E. San Diego.Did it in East Side and North LBC AND Compton.I can and will do it anywhere if the situation calls for it cuz it works.Did it on a bus once,and boy was THAT a shocker to everyone (got 2 students from that situation too,lol).They slump snoring.And I learned that tactic from a former Brazilian National Olympic TKD champ named Averroe.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Regarding I actually categorize arts, this is copied from my post on an older thread:
--------------------------------
*Archaic military arts:*
Kenjutsu
Archery
Historical western swordsmanship
Singlestick
Jujutsu (some ryu and under different names, as the term Jujutsu was not coined until the 1700s and then retroactively applied if memory serves).
Ninjutsu (a case could certainly be made, though I will leave that to a ninjutsu/ninpo practitioner)

*Archaic civilian dueling:*
Iaido
kendo
historical fencing
Sport fencing

*Civilian combat:*
Karate (insert ryu)
Hapkido
Keysi
Jeet Kune Do
Wing Chun
Ninjutsu/ninpo (the majority of teachers and students of this art are civilians or are learning in a civilian setting)
Shaolin Kung Fu (yes, those monks were civilians, as are most of those practicing it today)
Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu
Tai Chi

And....

...all of the various civilian self defense systems derived from various martial arts and from law enforcement that focus exclusively on surviving a violent encounter and how to handle yourself so that you don't get attacked (too many to even begin naming them). 

*Fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness:*
Boxing (fight sport)
Capoeira (folk game, fight sport, lifestyle/fitness)
Hadong Gumdo (lifestyle ~ wellness)
Wrestling (fight sport)
WWE Wrestling (martial entertainment)
Kickboxing (fight sport)
Tai Chi (lifestyle-fitness)
Judo (fight sport)
BJJ (fight sport)
Kendo/kumdo (fight sport, lifestyle/wellness)
Taekwondo (fight sport, lifestyle/wellness)
Takkyeon (folk game, fight sport, lifestyle/fitness)
Sport Karate (fight sport)
Fencing (fight sport)
MMA (fight sport)
Aikido (lifestyle-fitness)
-------------------------------------
I'm sure that you can come up with other categories and I'm sure that people will disagree with some of my categorizations.

Just to clarify:
Archaic military arts: used in, or in applicable training for, actual use in pre-modern warfare 

Archaic civilian dueling: for one on one duels fought prior to the advent of firearms or in lieu of firearms after that point.

Civilian combat: Developed for general purpose fighting outside of a military context. This includes peasants fighting against samurai or knights. 

Fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness: developed and/or adapted from older systems for... well.. fight sport, folk games, martial entertainment, or lifestyle and fitness. Which comprises the vast majority of what you see in martial arts schools in the US. Being in this category does not preclude the art from having SD application. 

This is not an exhaustive list by any means, and it is* entirely* based upon how I view things (i.e. my opinion) and is not carved into stone (meaning that I am open to recatigorizing things based on my learning more about the arts on the list). 

For example, Capoeira could potentially be slotted into civilian combat, provided that there is a reasonable chance of finding schools that actually teach it as such. I am not familiar enough with what is seen in Capoeira schools to comment on that. Were it not for being very famiiar with the mix of TKD schools, TKD would be strictly under fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> Daniel,if you're in good condition and have sufficient flexibility to touch your toes? I'll teach you to cartwheel within 2 days.Oftentimes within 20 minutes.It's a simple thing to do.If you can't touch your toes? I'll have you touching your toes or being very close to it in 7-14 days TOPS.Fact is? If you have the proper performance oriented functional training? This isn't hard to do...for the average person.Someone who's fit will learn it much faster.I've never had an athlete take longer than 20 minutes to learn to cartwheel.I've had athletes who suck at flexibility,so we worked for about 10 days on that.Once the flexibility issue was corrected? Cartwheel done in usually 10-20 minutes of work.


I believe you, but you're missing the point of my post. 

Yes, you can teach me to do a cartwheel. Or anyone else for that matter. It still doesn't make cartwheel kicks or other techniques that depend heavily upon athleticism advisable for self defense, particularly for the average person or for those well past their prime.

Are they *impossible* to use in self defense?  Not saying that.  Are they *advisable *to use in self defense?  No.

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regarding I actually categorize arts, this is copied from my post on an older thread:
> --------------------------------
> 
> For example, Capoeira could potentially be slotted into civilian combat, provided that there is a reasonable chance of finding schools that actually teach it as such. I am not familiar enough with what is seen in Capoeira schools to comment on that. Were it not for being very famiiar with the mix of TKD schools, TKD would be strictly under fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness.
> 
> Daniel


 
I remember this from the other thread. I would say that Capoeira would be civilian combat derived from older Tribal warfare and combat methods. It is different from what most people are familiar with in that it retains aspects of the various African cultures that were blended to become what it is today. It is not strictly a physical method. The music and rythmic aspects are reflections of the African cultures, and these points are common within all aspects of those cultures. I.e., the Africans would sing and use music as a way of making a day of hard work in the fields go easier. This kind of thing is prevalent in everything, and not slotted to a separate "music time". So it makes sense that music and rythm would be found in the practice of their fighting arts as well. Understanding this about African cultures is important in understanding where this fits within capoeira.  Nobody set out to create a fighting dance.  It is a fighting method, and cultural music is blended as an integral part of the method.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I believe you, but you're missing the point of my post.
> 
> Yes, you can teach me to do a cartwheel. Or anyone else for that matter. It still doesn't make cartwheel kicks or other techniques that depend heavily upon athleticism advisable for self defense, particularly for the average person or for those well past their prime.
> 
> Are they *impossible* to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they *advisable *to use in self defense? No.
> 
> Daniel


 

I'd modify that statement to: "Are they *impossible* to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they* effective* in self defense? *YES.  *Are they *frequently applied techniques* in self defense? *NO*. Are they *advisable* to use in self-defense? Depends on the situation."


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> I remember this from the other thread. *I would say that Capoeira would be civilian combat derived from older Tribal warfare and combat methods.* It is different from what most people are familiar with in that it retains aspects of the various African cultures that were blended to become what it is today. It is not strictly a physical method. The music and rythmic aspects are reflections of the African cultures, and these points are common within all aspects of those cultures. I.e., the Africans would sing and use music as a way of making a day of hard work in the fields go easier. This kind of thing is prevalent in everything, and not slotted to a separate "music time". So it makes sense that music and rythm would be found in the practice of their fighting arts as well. Understanding this about African cultures is important in understanding where this fits within capoeira. Nobody set out to create a fighting dance. It is a fighting method, and cultural music is blended as an integral part of the method.


I had the same dillema with taekwondo.  It was derived from older fighting systems and was practiced in the military.  

But the vast majority of schools teach it as a sport and as a lifestyle/fitness art aimed primarily at kids and teens.

Haidong gumdo ended up as strictly a lifestyle/fitness art.  It was made up in the eighties and is based on Shimgumdo which was made up in the late sixties.  Neither have any prewar roots and both have a goodly amount of 'history' that only exists within their own organizations.

Capoeira appears to be a lot of things wrapped up in one.  In that sense, it is very much in line with Japanese gendai budo.  Capoeira has a folk game aspect (music/dance and cultural roots), a competitive aspect (at least by the way I read this thread), and a self improvement aspect.

The reason that I don't include TKD in civilian combat is because, outside of a handful of schools, nobody is teaching it that way.  Virtually every TKD school that I have visited in different parts of the country that claim to be SD oriented are simply grafting on hapkido techniques and maybe some moves culled from BJJ and MT and look more like they're trying to adapt TKD to MMA rather than to practical SD use.

I am open to the idea that capoeira qualifies as civilian combat (meaning outside of a sporting context), but I have to ask you; is actually taught that way outside of maybe a handful of schools?

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I had the same dillema with taekwondo. It was derived from older fighting systems and was practiced in the military.
> 
> But the vast majority of schools teach it as a sport and as a lifestyle/fitness art aimed primarily at kids and teens.
> 
> Haidong gumdo ended up as strictly a lifestyle/fitness art. It was made up in the eighties and is based on Shimgumdo which was made up in the late sixties. Neither have any prewar roots and both have a goodly amount of 'history' that only exists within their own organizations.
> 
> Capoeira appears to be a lot of things wrapped up in one. In that sense, it is very much in line with Japanese gendai budo. Capoeira has a folk game aspect (music/dance and cultural roots), a competitive aspect (at least by the way I read this thread), and a self improvement aspect.
> 
> The reason that I don't include TKD in civilian combat is because, outside of a handful of schools, nobody is teaching it that way. Virtually every TKD school that I have visited in different parts of the country that claim to be SD oriented are simply grafting on hapkido techniques and maybe some moves culled from BJJ and MT and look more like they're trying to adapt TKD to MMA rather than to practical SD use.
> 
> I am open to the idea that capoeira qualifies as civilian combat (meaning outside of a sporting context), but I have to ask you; is actually taught that way outside of maybe a handful of schools?
> 
> Daniel


 
I think these are reasonable observations.

I've had some similar thoughts at times about it as well.  I don't have the definitive answer to your final question, I can only speak to the experience that I've had with it.  From what I've experienced, capoeira in the US is taught mostly for the game nowadays, tho in the context of the game it can approach fighting.  I have not observed any schools teaching specifically for fighting, but I've got to qualify that statement a bit.  First, I've seen some schools attempt to include some aspect of "fighting" or "self defense" within their training, even if they primarily train for the game.  However, I think in most cases they missed the point and assumed that to fight, you just do what you would in the game but more aggressively.  I don't believe that is the proper way to approach training to fight.  I believe that training to fight needs to be approached in some fundamentally different ways, and that means identifying what techniques and methods within the system actually make sense in a fight, and then training them to be decisive.  Secondly, I've not gone to Brazil and have not experienced capoeira outside the United States, and I've certainly not witnessed every school within the United States either.  So it is entirely possible that there are some schools that are effectively and properly training to fight, but I cannot confirm that.  

I will also say that I've met and trained with visiting instructors from the larger organization that my teacher belongs to.  Some of those folks are downright scary, and I would not want to tangle with them.  Does that mean they are trained "fighters", or just very strong and aggressive "players"?  I don't know.  I only know that I wouldn't want to face off against them if we were playing for keeps.

The way I see it is, what was the original intention of the method?  It was a fighting method.  I recognize that today it is much different from what it was in past generations, and the focus of training has changed.  But I can see that the original fighting potential still exists within it, and that is why I would be reluctant to categorize it as something other than a martial art.  It is a martial art that has different aspects, one of which is more playful and is the predominant focus for most.  

I can see how you view some parallels with TKD and such.  Sorry I can't give you an absolute definition, and maybe that's the nature of capoeira.  It's always been elusive and tricky.


----------



## yorkshirelad

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I believe you, but you're missing the point of my post.
> 
> Yes, you can teach me to do a cartwheel. Or anyone else for that matter. It still doesn't make cartwheel kicks or other techniques that depend heavily upon athleticism advisable for self defense, particularly for the average person or for those well past their prime.
> 
> Are they *impossible* to use in self defense?  Not saying that.  Are they *advisable *to use in self defense?  No.
> 
> Daniel


 
I teach a claas ever once in a while in Camp Pendleton for a "Combat Camera" unit. If I was to get them to try and perform a kick from a cartwheel and portray it as a practical combatives tactic, I would be fired on the spot.


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> I teach a claas ever once in a while in Camp Pendleton for a "Combat Camera" unit. If I was to get them to try and perform a kick from a cartwheel and portray it as a practical combatives tactic, I would be fired on the spot.


 
yes, but that's not really what capoeira is all about.

go back and read the several posts I've made lately...


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> yes, but that's not really what capoeira is all about.
> 
> go back and read the several posts I've made lately...


 
Believe me, I've read them. This whole thread began when Atackx showed a video of himself doing a kick from a cartwheel and touting it as a viable method of self protection. Now, my experience of Capoeira is more of a dance. If Atackx had shown a video of himself headbutting his partner and told me that he learned that from Capoeira, I would've said "Nice, that's a viable method of self protection! Good job mate!". He didn't do that, he showed us a kick that would probably not work in a combat situation.


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> Believe me, I've read them. This whole thread began when Atackx showed a video of himself doing a kick from a cartwheel and touting it as a viable method of self protection. Now, my experience of Capoeira is more of a dance. If Atackx had shown a video of himself headbutting his partner and told me that he learned that from Capoeira, I would've said "Nice, that's a viable method of self protection! Good job mate!". He didn't do that, he showed us a kick that would probably not work in a combat situation.


 

I've not commented directly about the video in the opening post.  I'd say the posts i've made in this thread have made my own feelings clear on the matter.

In the meantime I've been trying to educate the readership here on what capoeira really is.  I've been trying to give a realistic description of what goes on and what it has to offer, and what it means as a viable fighting method.

You say that in your experience, capoeira is more of a dance.  This tells me that your experience has been minimal, which I believe you even stated earlier.  That you think capoeira is more of a dance tells me that you do not understand it, even a little bit.

as someone who is reasonably experienced in capoeira, I'm telling you: it's not a dance.  If you wish to continue believing that it is a dance, now that I've told you directly that it is not, then you are choosing ignorance over education.

I'm trying to guide you and anyone else who cares to read and consider and ponder a little bit, away from ignorance.


----------



## Twin Fist

and, after 17 pages, no one can produce any "real" capoeira that doesnt bear a strong resemblence to the lambada


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> I've not commented directly about the video in the opening post. I'd say the posts i've made in this thread have made my own feelings clear on the matter.
> 
> In the meantime I've been trying to educate the readership here on what capoeira really is. I've been trying to give a realistic description of what goes on and what it has to offer, and what it means as a viable fighting method.
> 
> You say that in your experience, capoeira is more of a dance. This tells me that your experience has been minimal, which I believe you even stated earlier. That you think capoeira is more of a dance tells me that you do not understand it, even a little bit.
> 
> as someone who is reasonably experienced in capoeira, I'm telling you: it's not a dance. If you wish to continue believing that it is a dance, now that I've told you directly that it is not, then you are choosing ignorance over education.
> 
> I'm trying to guide you and anyone else who cares to read and consider and ponder a little bit, away from ignorance.


 
Show me some "combat" Capoeira that doesn't include jumping, spinning kicks.
Like I said to you before, I understand Aikido. I understand it from a combat POV and an historical POV. I understand that it's true usefullness is in the perfection of the character and the philosophy it brings to the table. I can truly say that my life has been truly enriched by being an Aikidoka.  I also understand that Nikajo-osae chudan tsuki does not work in a practical self protection sense. It works in the dojo because the uke is being cooperative. I can take facets of Aiki however and make it work in context. I can use all controls from Ikajo through gokajo effectively against grab attacks after softening the opponent up with atemi-waza.

Now, this all being said, there may be facets of Capoeira that can be used in combat effectively without putting yourself in undue danger like, knee, elbows, eye gouges and headbutts, but up till this time no one has showed me anything of the sort. Instead I'm shown handstand kicks and told that they work. Well as a martial artist, doorman, combatives instructor, Infantryman and a man who has been involved in not just a couple of EP details, I'm telling you this, teaching a handstand kick as a practical method of self protection is idiotic and presents more of a danger to the person trying to pull it off than the person it's trying to disable.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

yorkshirelad said:


> Show me some *"combat" Capoeira* that doesn't include jumping, spinning kicks.


GM Pelligrini, I choose YOU!

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> I'm telling you this, teaching a handstand kick as a practical method of self protection is idiotic and presents more of a danger to the person trying to pull it off than the person it's trying to disable.


 
point out to me where I've advocated "teaching a handstand kick as a practical method of self protection".  I've not.

I'm trying to give a greater education about what capoeira really is.

are you choosing ignorance?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Methinks that he is refering to the succession of videos, all of which have been focused on acrobatic kicking.

You have told us, and I take you at your word, about functional capoeira, but thus far, nobody has posted any videos of functional capoeira.

I understand that it would be nigh impossible to catch a specifically Capoeira used against a violent attack video  But are there any vids of the sort of training exercises used to train the functional material?

Daniel


----------



## yorkshirelad

daniel sullivan said:


> methinks that he is refering to the succession of videos, all of which have been focused on acrobatic kicking.
> 
> You have told us, and i take you at your word, about functional capoeira, but thus far, nobody has posted any videos of functional capoeira.
> 
> I understand that it would be nigh impossible to catch a specifically capoeira used against a violent attack video but are there any vids of the sort of training exercises used to train the functional material?
> 
> Daniel


qtf!!


----------



## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Methinks that he is refering to the succession of videos, all of which have been focused on acrobatic kicking.
> 
> You have told us, and I take you at your word, about functional capoeira, but thus far, nobody has posted any videos of functional capoeira.
> 
> I understand that it would be nigh impossible to catch a specifically Capoeira used against a violent attack video But are there any vids of the sort of training exercises used to train the functional material?
> 
> Daniel


 
alright, I understand that tho I've not reviewed any of the videos linked other than the original one.  I find most of the videos posted on youtube do not do the system (or any system for that matter) much justice.

I highly doubt also that there are any videos out there of a capoeirista trouncing the bad guys for real.  Video proof does not exist for everything.  Some things are gonna have to be taken on faith when we are having a long-distance discussion.  

are their training videos for a more self-defense/combative oriented version of capoeira?  Not to my knowledge.

here's the thing.  Capoeira has a whole lot of techniques that are familiar and common to other arts.  They've got front heel kicks and front snap kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks, crescent kicks, hook kicks, and some that are unique to capoeira like the meia lua de compasso (take your head right off your shoulders, that one will).  They've got hand strikes, elbow strikes, head butts, trips, sweeps and takedowns.  They've got a huge movement and footwork language, as well as unique ways to position and move and re-position, and none of this is acrobatics or "dance".  It's not difficult to look at that list and realize that all it takes is a recognition that you drive in and hit someone with that stuff and you are doing what any karateka/muay thai/kenpo/whatever guy is doing.  They all teach the same skills.  Capoeira uses a different platform and methodology, and has some unique techniques, but in a real fight it's gonna look very much the same.  The roda, the game of capoeira, creates a different mindset and that needs to be understood as something separate from real fighting.  That's important.  But capoeira teaches all the tools that are commonly found in many systems for fighting.

I'm the only person here who has actually listed my capoeira background.  I know a few other people have some significant experience as well but none of them have bothered to list in detail.  I suspect I may be the most experienced capoeirista on this forum.  I don't know that for sure, but I believe it's possible.  I'm trying to give a realistic description of what capoeira really is, but people want to keep arguing over a handstand or a cartwheel.  I understand that is what opened the thread, but I'll say here, as (possibly) the senior ranking capoeirista on this forum, that that is not a realistic strategy for fighting, tho as I mentioned earlier I believe there CAN be some LIMITED use for such techniques, under certain circumstances. 

If people wanna keep arguing over a cartwheel, well go ahead.  The really silly thing about this is, I don't even train capoeira anymore and haven't done so in a number of years.  I also decided, "not the right match for me", and I believe there are often some questionable and even hazardous training practices that are done in many schools, things that have a high possibility of leading to injury.  But I know that underneath it all capoeira has all the potential of any system for fighting, if it is properly trained and realized.  But I don't even do it anymore and the silly thing is that I'm here beating my head against a wall trying to educate people who have no experience nor understanding of capoeira, and seem hell-bent on not being educated.  I don't know why I'm bothering with it because in truth I don't care what people think of it.  Let 'em think it's stupid.  Underestimating one's opponent is a great way to get your *** handed to you someday.


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> I'm the only person here who has actually listed my capoeira background. I know a few other people have some significant experience as well but none of them have bothered to list in detail. I suspect I may be the most experienced capoeirista on this forum. .


 
You probably are, and good for you. This may make you a little blinkered. I have a very good friend who is well versed in Aikido. He has a black belt in Kenpo and training in kickboxing, but now, and for the past 8 years, his primary art has been Aikido. He swears blind it is the ultimate art and has taken on faith all the mythical stories perpetuated by Aikidoka about Ueshiba and Takeda Sokaku. I've sparred with him, and asked him while we are sparring to try to you a control on me while we are sparring, so far he hasn't been able to. I've also asked him to try to lock me u or throw me, even by suprise when we hang out. So far, over the last 2 years, he hasn't been able to. I've even asked that his instructor try, but the guy knows better. When he tries and fails, he tells me that he hasn't reached the level of Ueshiba yet, but if Ueshiba was alive, he would be able to throw me with little contact. I don't buy it! I can't for the life of me understand why he hasn't yet tried Iriminage, I can see that working in a sparring scenario, but he hasn't so, I wait, and wait, and wait.
I've told him that Aikido's usefulness goes well beyond streetfighting. That it's a beautiful art and that it serves a greater purpose. It even introduced him to his very smoking hot wife, but he keeps insisting that Aikido is the perfect art for self preservation, when confronted by a thug. Why? Because he is blinded by his love for his art and his teacher. He's a good guy, noble, but in this case, misguided.

Now, show me an instructional video of Capoeira, where the teacher teaches a combat method of Capoeira without doing acrobatics and I mean a respected Master of the art and I'll say Capoeira is effective for self preservation. However, no matter what, noone is going to convince me that the technique Atackx pulled is viable for a violent encounter. It is impressive, it shows conditioning, it shows athleticism, but if you think it's effective , you don't understand the mechanics of a truly violent encounter.


----------



## searcher

Twin Fist said:


> you throw that, you better HOPE it knocks them out, cuz if it doesnt? you gonna die


 


I agree.     I am willing to use it in knockdown, but a person would have to be completely mental to attempt it on the street.


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> You probably are, and good for you. This may make you a little blinkered. I have a very good friend who is well versed in Aikido. He has a black belt in Kenpo and training in kickboxing, but now, and for the past 8 years, his primary art has been Aikido. He swears blind it is the ultimate art and has taken on faith all the mythical stories perpetuated by Aikidoka about Ueshiba and Takeda Sokaku. I've sparred with him, and asked him while we are sparring to try to you a control on me while we are sparring, so far he hasn't been able to. I've also asked him to try to lock me u or throw me, even by suprise when we hang out. So far, over the last 2 years, he hasn't been able to. I've even asked that his instructor try, but the guy knows better. When he tries and fails, he tells me that he hasn't reached the level of Ueshiba yet, but if Ueshiba was alive, he would be able to throw me with little contact. I don't buy it! I can't for the life of me understand why he hasn't yet tried Iriminage, I can see that working in a sparring scenario, but he hasn't so, I wait, and wait, and wait.
> I've told him that Aikido's usefulness goes well beyond streetfighting. That it's a beautiful art and that it serves a greater purpose. It even introduced him to his very smoking hot wife, but he keeps insisting that Aikido is the perfect art for self preservation, when confronted by a thug. Why? Because he is blinded by his love for his art and his teacher. He's a good guy, noble, but in this case, misguided.
> 
> Now, show me an instructional video of Capoeira, where the teacher teaches a combat method of Capoeira without doing acrobatics and I mean a respected Master of the art and I'll say Capoeira is effective for self preservation. However, no matter what, noone is going to convince me that the technique Atackx pulled is viable for a violent encounter. It is impressive, it shows conditioning, it shows athleticism, but if you think it's effective , you don't understand the mechanics of a truly violent encounter.


 

Flying Crane HAS attempted to educate on this thread.So have I. Flying Crane has more seniority in capoeira than do I...he's reached instructor level.Maybe even contramestre.I'm still a colored belt. But I can show you functional capoeira and HAVE  shown you some already.Now,you're of the mindset that abjures combative acrobatics,and that's fine.It's funny,however,that you mentioned the "head butt" because that  tech--called cabeca in capoeira--is something that we're legendary for. Flying Crane is correct in that combat functional capoeira looks very much like what a bareknuckle kickboxer,kenpo guy,gungfu man,G-R and judo man,savate guy,etc. would do because all of those techs are also a (heavily featured) part of capoeira.

I can and will show you in subsequent videos capoeira training methodology.You will see that even arts like bjj have borrowed liberally from capoeira,going from the original stilted,stiff movements of bjj to the fluid,rolling,carthwheeling,graceful,transitioning,nonstop movements and even animal movement training methods--all hallmarks of capoeira--so prevalent today. What tickles me from you guys is that you can disparage a technique like the cartwheel without having any real idea as to what the purpose application and training is behind it.I'm almost 100% certain that I can hit you guys with a cartwheel kick because of your ignorace of it. Put another way? A prime Sakuraba and others who aren't superhuman nailed cartwheel passes of the guard.The cartwheel pass became common place once its surprise factor and genuine effectiveness became known. The cartwheel has been used FOR DECADES in OLYMPIC JUDO in order to escape numerous Judo throws and turn the tables on the attacker. None of the detractors of the cartwheel can beat Sakuraba or any Olympic Judoka in a straight scrap using Judo rules or on the street h2h in self defense.They and others who aren't superhumans can cartwheel on you like the Chinese Gymnastic team and you'd be helpless. Yet you disparage it. 

On top of that? Capoeira isn't limited to its acrobatics and gymnastics.As Flying Crane has said over and over and over and over again. If you want to see how we train the nonacrobatic stuff functionally? I can easily do that for you.No problem. I'm actually glad to read that request.Give me 2 weeks and I'll have about at least a dozen videos up for you. Easy money. But lots of you may claim that it's something other than capoeira,because it looks (to you) like something else.It's capoeira though; there's just likely to be some similarity to combat striking and grappling arts because the function of a thing has an impact on its form and vice versa.


----------



## OzPaul

Brian Ebersole...


----------



## Archangel M

Ring examples of individual techniques as "proof" of effectiveness is a non-starter. Ring examples are of the "1000 monkeys at typewriters" variety. Given enough examples you will see many things. Even this. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9WHr0e8dV4&feature=related

Yes. parkour is an effective self-defense style IF YOU TRAIN IT RIGHT. LOL!!!


----------



## OzPaul

I was waiting for a video of the "showtime" kick.  Parkour could be good if your a criminal...


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> Yet you disparage it...


 
I've disparaged the example of Capoeira that you used as a combative art. When it comes to athleticism, health, fun, even ring craft it's great! Even in ring craft only a few, exceptional people can pull it off with absollute efficiency. 

[/quote]On top of that? Capoeira isn't limited to its acrobatics and gymnastics..[/quote]

Then show me Combat Capoeira being practised by a respected master. I want to see it. All you've shown so far is gymnastics. I also understand that there maybe footage of Capoeira practitioners involved in streetfights out there, but you can bet your bollocks to a barn dance, they won't be doing cartwheels and handstands when fighting thugs.

Tell me, why don't they teach handstands and cartwheels in military combatives courses? Show me footage of Fairbain and Applegate going handstands. Show me footage of Imi Lichenfeld doing them.

Your techniques is aboout as effective in combat as this:


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> You probably are, and good for you. This may make you a little blinkered. I have a very good friend who is well versed in Aikido. He has a black belt in Kenpo and training in kickboxing, but now, and for the past 8 years, his primary art has been Aikido. He swears blind it is the ultimate art and has taken on faith all the mythical stories perpetuated by Aikidoka about Ueshiba and Takeda Sokaku. I've sparred with him, and asked him while we are sparring to try to you a control on me while we are sparring, so far he hasn't been able to. I've also asked him to try to lock me u or throw me, even by suprise when we hang out. So far, over the last 2 years, he hasn't been able to. I've even asked that his instructor try, but the guy knows better. When he tries and fails, he tells me that he hasn't reached the level of Ueshiba yet, but if Ueshiba was alive, he would be able to throw me with little contact. I don't buy it! I can't for the life of me understand why he hasn't yet tried Iriminage, I can see that working in a sparring scenario, but he hasn't so, I wait, and wait, and wait.
> I've told him that Aikido's usefulness goes well beyond streetfighting. That it's a beautiful art and that it serves a greater purpose. It even introduced him to his very smoking hot wife, but he keeps insisting that Aikido is the perfect art for self preservation, when confronted by a thug. Why? Because he is blinded by his love for his art and his teacher. He's a good guy, noble, but in this case, misguided.
> 
> Now, show me an instructional video of Capoeira, where the teacher teaches a combat method of Capoeira without doing acrobatics and I mean a respected Master of the art and I'll say Capoeira is effective for self preservation. However, no matter what, noone is going to convince me that the technique Atackx pulled is viable for a violent encounter. It is impressive, it shows conditioning, it shows athleticism, but if you think it's effective , you don't understand the mechanics of a truly violent encounter.



Let the official record show that Yorkshirelad has made his choice, and he chooses:  IGNORANCE.


----------



## Twin Fist

no, he doesnt, he is correct

we have begged for evidence of a combat system of this crap, and no one can produce any.
instead, people have tried to convince us that acrobatics and flippy gymnastics are combat effective (which is horse ****) while claiming but not showng that there is more to it

put up or....well, you know the rest


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> alright, I understand that tho I've not reviewed any of the videos linked other than the original one.  I find most of the videos posted on youtube do not do the system (or any system for that matter) much justice.
> 
> I highly doubt also that there are any videos out there of a capoeirista trouncing the bad guys for real.  Video proof does not exist for everything.  Some things are gonna have to be taken on faith when we are having a long-distance discussion.


Absolutely, which is what I had said earlier.   



Flying Crane said:


> are their training videos for a more self-defense/combative oriented version of capoeira?  Not to my knowledge.


That is unfortunate.  

I can find legit training vids, good ones, both on youtube and for purchase, on aikido, hapkido, kendo, haidong geomdo, shotokan, taekwondo, etc.

While video is not the end all/be all of proving one's point, it does make a powerful statement.  A good video that says, 'this is how we train and drill for an actual fight' would be a great way to respond to people who keep asking to 'see real capoeira.'

I suspect that the reason that the acrobatic stuff is on Youtube is because it is visually impressive and not to present 'true capoeira' to the world.  In other words, someone did something cool and wanted to show it off.

Daniel


----------



## ATACX GYM

OzPaul said:


> Brian Ebersole...


 

This is one of the videos that I linked a few pages back in the barrage of videos that I used as proof that a technique that's been disparaged is actually well known for its efficacy.

Like I previously said,the next 2 weeks I will put up a plethora of capoeira techs and movements that both do and don't have acrobatics in them.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> This is one of the videos that I linked a few pages back in the barrage of videos that I used as proof that a technique that's been disparaged is actually well known for its efficacy.


Definite fluke.  I wouldn't have fallen for that one, but kudos to the guy that pulled it off.  

Again, as I have repeatedly said, it is *not impossible* to pull off but nor is it advisable *in a self defense situation.*

Daniel


----------



## ATACX GYM

Archangel M said:


> Ring examples of individual techniques as "proof" of effectiveness is a non-starter. Ring examples are of the "1000 monkeys at typewriters" variety. Given enough examples you will see many things. Even this.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9WHr0e8dV4&feature=related
> 
> Yes. parkour is an effective self-defense style IF YOU TRAIN IT RIGHT. LOL!!!


 

That's simply not true and that kick ISN'T parkour.Both of your assertions are demonstrably short on logic.You usually have sharp posts,Archangel M. Not this time. The "ring examples" are dependent on what level of combatant is in the ring and how permissive the rules are. But truth is? A high end point fighting guy like Mike Pombeiro or Raymond Daniels will ALSO defeat you in h2h self defense because these guys have honed skill,an arsenal and ability clearly beyond the norm.Any kickboxing world title holder or contender will crush you in h2h combat (the unarmed variety) without question. Tell the kali tudo guys about how ineffective they are,then pull a knife or stick on them.Just be sure that your Last Will and Testament is completed beforehand. Hop skip and jump your way on over there to Floyd Mayweather,laugh at his inadequate ring examples of defensive skill,try to kick or punch him...and be thoroughly destroyed by Floyd's "in ring" examples of punches. Swagger your way on down to the USA Olympics Team,and have at the nearest wrestlers judoka boxers and tkd folks,fresh from the mat (that's their ring,except boxers are in the squared circle).See what joy you receive. Ease on down to the Kudo or Kyokushin tourneys and laugh it up at the karateka there before you try to get your whale on with your vaunted self-defense techs.Observe the massive lack of success you achieve. Break out your kali espada and guffaw derisively like plundering pirates har har har before slashing lustily at...the Olympic saber fencing champs. Explain to Lyoto Machida why you're not sweatin his elusiveness or karate because he scraps in a cage and a ring...while the rest of us watch and just do the "smh" as he Crane kicks you into oblivion like he did the one and only legendary Randy Couture.

Your logic is flawed.Your conclusion is flawed.

What sports is very good at is performing very well under a set of rules.Self-defense has a much broader set of circumstances,but in general the people performing are significantly less skilled,conditioned and athletic than sports combatants are.All sports combatants need to do is train under broader conditions which include self-defense circumstances and they'll outshine these average shmoe types too in S-D...and innovate extensively in the process. Remember how for the longest time old skool CQB guys felt you had very limited shooting options and mobility while grounded? We're talking guys from WW2 to Vietnam and even quite a few (not as many but still way too many) thereafter?

And then Russian Spetsnaz and other forces began rethinking things.And stuff like THIS happened:





 




 
Remember how--even now--most martial arts instructors focused on dealing with weapons including guns BEFORE they were drawn because the general feeling was it's "game over" when a weapon is drawn? And then THIS happened:





 
And along comes a Twin Fist,a Yorkshirelad,and an Archangel M who swear that head kicks don't work.And THIS happens:





 
They swear that twirly kicks don't work,and THIS happens:





 
But WAIT. Navy SEALS and Taiwanese SWAT and Soth Korean ROC teams do head kicks and...GASP...stuff that works in the ring just modified it for their environment (which is what I've been asserting from day one...cuz yes,Archangel M...IT WORKS IF YOU TRAIN IT RIGHT). Say it ain't so,TwinYorkAngel! But waitiaminnit it IS SO!!





 




 




 




 

So what a surprise (not); all your claims that "ring sports" are inapplicable to self-defense is also inaccurate.Proveably so. Proof in the pudding.It's all over done and it's a wrap. 

Now you can say that these head kicks,spin kicks,etc. aren't frequently used. Agreed.You could say that--in comparison to the opportunities to shoot stab punch knee elbow low kick etc. safely--the opportunity to execute say a cartwheel kick safely is significantly more rare.I agree there too. You can then forcefully conclude that it's your opinion that it's better to omit these techs altogether.Cool I can see and respect your reasoning there.

What you CAN'T say FACTUALLY is that these techniques are without self-defense merit and that units who are a thousand times better than you will eeever be in S-D don't use these techs.These best of the best fight more like me than they fight like you.Now THAT'S a FACT. Just so happens that my opinion more accurately reflects these facts than yours do...because it IS true that the facility of a technique is based directly upon its quality functional training. In other words,like my sig says...

"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Definite fluke. I wouldn't have fallen for that one, but kudos to the guy that pulled it off.
> 
> Again, as I have repeatedly said, it is *not impossible* to pull off but nor is it advisable *in a self defense situation.*
> 
> Daniel


 
To which I would reply



ATACX GYM said:


> I'd modify that statement to: "Are they *impossible* to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they* effective* in self defense? *YES. *Are they *frequently applied techniques* in self defense? *NO*. Are they *advisable* to use in self-defense? Depends on the situation."


----------



## Twin Fist

I didnt think it had to be said, but clearly some people dont realize:
MMA IS NOT REAL LIFE


only a moron thinks head kicks are EVER a good idea IN SELF DEFENSE. isit possible? maybe so, but hey, i CAN drive a car with my FEET< doesntmake it a good idea

if the bad guy isnt bent over? keep your feet on the ground. It will keep you alive longer

anyone that thinks they can use head kicks *reliably* IN SELF  DEFENSE has either never been in a street fight OR they are on drugs,  either way they are dreaming

flukes happen

accidents happen

dont bet your LIFE on being able to do it at will.

you aint anderson silva, you cant do what he does, and you never will be able to. Hell, Anderson Silva prob couldnt do what he does on the street in street cloths with 2-4 bad guys around him.

DUH


----------



## Twin Fist

*chuckle*

yeah, cuz you say so.....lol

some people make me laugh



ATACX GYM said:


> So what a surprise (not); all your claims that "ring sports" are inapplicable to self-defense is also inaccurate.Proveably so. Proof in the pudding.It's all over done and it's a wrap.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> I'd modify that statement to: "Are they *impossible* to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they* effective* in self defense? *YES. *Are they *frequently applied techniques* in self defense? *NO*. Are they *advisable* to use in self-defense? Depends on the situation."


That is what not advisable means.  They are generally not advisable.  There are exceptions to every rule, but those *are* exceptions.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I maintain the position that done correctly, in practical application, most styles will bear more similarities than differences.  There are certain prinicples to successul self defense and successful fighting in a tournament setting that are common to all styles.  

So while you may see some stylisitc differences in execution (one guy rotates his fist, another guy hits with a vertical fist, etc.), you will see more substantive similarities.

Daniel


----------



## MJS

Folks,

There've already been a few nudges and reported posts from this thead.  Let this serve as the last nudge.  Lets keep things civil please.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Twin Fist said:


> I didnt think it had to be said, but clearly some people dont realize:
> MMA IS NOT REAL LIFE
> 
> 
> only a moron thinks head kicks are EVER a good idea IN SELF DEFENSE. isit possible? maybe so, but hey, i CAN drive a car with my FEET< doesntmake it a good idea
> 
> if the bad guy isnt bent over? keep your feet on the ground. It will keep you alive longer
> 
> anyone that thinks they can use head kicks *reliably* IN SELF DEFENSE has either never been in a street fight OR they are on drugs, either way they are dreaming
> 
> flukes happen
> 
> accidents happen
> 
> dont bet your LIFE on being able to do it at will.
> 
> you aint anderson silva, you cant do what he does, and you never will be able to. Hell, Anderson Silva prob couldnt do what he does on the street in street cloths with 2-4 bad guys around him.
> 
> DUH


 
Of course MMA isn't street fighting. The MMA guys are better h2h and street scraps involve circumstances that can (although relatively rarely) involve weapons and several assailants at once.All that means is: train your techs for those confrontations too.There ya go.


All this means is that your experiences and/or opinion have lead you to this conclusion.That's cool.However,I've used head kicks plenty of times growing up on the mean streets of southeast san diego,north,east,and downtown Long Beach CA,on the streets of Compton (in the parking lot of the supermarket next to the Compton Blue Line station) and seeeveerraaal times in Los Angeles at the clubs and southcentral L.A. Yes there were times when there was more than one guy I was fighting and had no impact on the head kick's effectiveness. I have also executed the jump lowkick to the knee any number of times. Aaaand I've landed the spinning backfist (usually following a feint body shot or over your dropped lead hand) numerous times too. I even have pulled off the old skool Benny "the Jet" Urquidez double spinning backfist a few times over the years. My facility with the technique amplified both my willingness to execute the tech and the numerous times it landed.I only missed it twice out of the 2-3 dozen times that I've launched it in fights and maaany times while sparring; thousands of times over the years (and when I missed it just means that I always land the body blow I throw right behind it). 

Head kicks are reliable.Very reliable. You may be thinking "head kicks aren't as frequently available as various hand blows knees,tackles and low line kicks" or something.Okay agree with that. But it doesn't mean that the kicks aren't reliable or advisable; head kicks end fights much more reliably than a punch does,and it's advisableto end fights as fast as you can.Imo it's advisable to have your weapons well trained for and honed to take advantage of what the other guy thinks. People who follow the perspective that Twin Fist espouses won't really be expecting head kicks in fights and they won't be using them either.Me? Ghetto child. Security professional. I've executed head kicks successfully IN STAIRWELLS. Once in an elevator (don't ask,lol). Even pulled off a playful head kick inside of a SUV recently as last week. Head kicks work,they're reliable,and if you train them functionally,the opportunities for their use are muuuch more frequent than those who espouse the TwinYorkAngel perspective might have you believe. 

Aaaaand I provided links of special forces units training the head kick.They're in the hairiest of SD scenarios aaaand warfare.That would/should end any reasonable contention about this specific tech's viability in SD to reasonable minds. Disagree? Okay,but our disagreement boils down to training philosophy,not the efficacy of a kick.Nobody who disses the head kick would volunteer to be head kicked,so we KNOW it works and it hurts if you land it.Training philosophy is where we differ and that's cool.No problem.

Still gonna video those other capoeira techs over the next 2 weeks. So yeah let's get back to the main idea.Capoeira techs.We differ on head kicks? Coool.Howbouthem non-head kick capoeira moves though?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> Okay,but our disagreement boils down to training philosophy,not the efficacy of a kick.Nobody who disses the head kick would volunteer to be head kicked,so we KNOW it works and it hurts if you land it.Training philosophy is where we differ and that's cool.No problem.


Nobody, *absolutely nobody*, is arguing that kicking someone in the head is an ineffective way to injure them.  

And the issue is not head kicks specifically, but any kick above waist level.  The issue with *any* kick at or above waist level in self defense is that it really is not all that hard to catch the kicker's kicking leg, and doing so requires virtually *no* training at all.  

Seen it in real life, seen it in the dojang with low belt TKD students when they first begin sparring.  It is a reflex that must be *trained out* of the student in order for them to spar in tournament without receiving a warning.

In fact, it is reflexive for most people mainly because it is such a no brainer: dude kicking is on one leg.  I catch leg in air.  Now dude who tried to kick me is in a compromised position.  

That goes for experienced kickers as well as inexperienced kickers.  And that is the reason that such techniques are, as a general rule, not advisable in a self defense situation.

Once the kicking leg is caught, the easiest thing for the opponent to do is to simply lift sharply and push forward.  And if you're lucky, that's exactly what he'll do.  Alternatives are elbow strikes to the knee, kicking you in the now wide open groin, or any number of jujutsu style takedowns that involve you ending up face down with your opponent bending your leg in ways God never intended it to bend.  Then there's the possibility of him/her/it knifing you in the now open inner thigh area.

Regarding military training in MA, hand to hand combat is very low on the priorty list for the military.  Kind of like sword work in aikido; if you take aikido, you'll eventually get some sword training (aiki-ken), but nobody practices aikido because they want to learn swordwork.  Likewise, if you join the military, you'll get some unarmed combat training.  But nobody joins the military to learn how to fight without weapons.  It's kind of a byproduct.  You will receive much more comprehensive unarmed combat training if you train in a place that is dedicated to unarmed combat training.

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I suspect that the reason that the acrobatic stuff is on Youtube is because it is visually impressive and not to present 'true capoeira' to the world. In other words, someone did something cool and wanted to show it off.
> 
> Daniel


 
bingo, dead-on.  This is, I believe, absolutely true.  It's visually impressive and has that "wow" factor that people love.  That's what is commonly seen, and so people think that's all that capoeira is.


----------



## Twin Fist

I can say i can pull it off a Triple Lindy, i can say i fly to the moon under my own power. Doesnt make it true. And most of the time, no one will believe me. Rightly so.Generally speaking, the taller the tale, the more likely it is to be BS....your mileage may vary

Superheroes are rare, someone claims to be one? they most likely are not. Look for a cape. No cape? well then...........


I will wait to see some of the "real" stuff. From an actually skilled practitioner.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> Superheroes are rare, someone claims to be one? they most likely are not. Look for a cape. No cape? well then...........


Didn't you even see the Incredibles???  Capes are out of fashion now.  Except for Supes, Thor and Bats who are throwbacks, nobody does capes anymore.

Daniel


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Nobody, *absolutely nobody*, is arguing that kicking someone in the head is an ineffective way to injure them.
> 
> And the issue is not head kicks specifically, but any kick above waist level. The issue with *any* kick at or above waist level in self defense is that it really is not all that hard to catch the kicker's kicking leg, and doing so requires virtually *no* training at all.
> Daniel


 

I have not seen anyone mention specifically kicks above the waist until now. Maybe I missed that post. I even more energetically disagree with that contention than I do about head kicks.Catching the leg of someone who kicks well is NOT easy AT. ALL. It may be a natural reaction for many people after a partial kick has landed to hunch over from the kick and grab at the leg,but what that means is that the kicker lacks "retraction speed". It's like the kicker threw their kick and LEFT IT OUT THERE. Furthermore,I have never in my life seen anyone be "trained out" of catching a kick.In all my life,we've trained THE OPPOSITE.But I have noted over the last 3 decades how few people we spar are able to catch a kick and counter at the same time,so I suppose that many other schools may indeed teach others to NOT catch the kicks.My Kenpo, TKD and Hapkido GMs taught me THE EXACT OPPOSITE.Like my MT coach,we religiously practice slipping,evading,blocking,catching and countering kicks with kicks blows sweeps throws etc. I have numerous drills for this of my own.I might video them and put them up on my page.Frankly,I never gave a instant's thought to someone being "trained out" of catching kicks.To me,such a practice is...counterproductive,to state it kindly.

I too have seen many a person have their kick caught after they've thrown the kick.That person didn't train their kick correctly,or mistimed the kick.It's ALWAYS one of the two and far too often BOTH.Like somebody catching a hook or power cross or knee...if your blow is caught? You didn't throw it right or retract it with sufficient speed.You also weren't throwing COMBINATIONS as a person catching your leg IN THE MIDST OF A COMBO is simply opening themselves up for the following finishing blow. I've thrown MANY a abdomen,waist,hip,rib etc. kick and RARELY have I been caught (and NEVER after I got The Thousands for it as a Yellow Belt; that's 30 years ago now) in my whole life. If I land that kick (or any kicker who's trained their kicks functionally and explosively) I feel very confident that very few people will catch my kick...unless it's their face or whatever target I want to hit that is doing the "catching" of my kick.

Secondly,dealing with a caught kick is no big deal. I work those drills all the time.If somebody's caught your leg,first you've usually hurt them to some extent because you've at least partially landed your kick.Secondly,both their arms are engaged in holding your leg.Thirdly,you get to give them hell and mayhem because they're holding your leg and not especially adept at defending themselves from that position because they don't put in lotsa quality reps there.Practice against the tackle,sweep,punch,and weapon deployment from this position (as I do) and you're all good.Plus you'll have lotsa options that the other guys HAS NO IDEA IS COMING because HE DOESN'T train against the possibility that somebody whose leg he's caught is perfectly comfy skilled and fully able to wreak havoc from that position.


----------



## ATACX GYM

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Once the kicking leg is caught, the easiest thing for the opponent to do is to simply lift sharply and push forward. And if you're lucky, that's exactly what he'll do. Alternatives are elbow strikes to the knee, kicking you in the now wide open groin, or any number of jujutsu style takedowns that involve you ending up face down with your opponent bending your leg in ways God never intended it to bend. Then there's the possibility of him/her/it knifing you in the now open inner thigh area.
> 
> Regarding military training in MA, hand to hand combat is very low on the priorty list for the military. Kind of like sword work in aikido; if you take aikido, you'll eventually get some sword training (aiki-ken), but nobody practices aikido because they want to learn swordwork. Likewise, if you join the military, you'll get some unarmed combat training. But nobody joins the military to learn how to fight without weapons. It's kind of a byproduct. You will receive much more comprehensive unarmed combat training if you train in a place that is dedicated to unarmed combat training.
> 
> Daniel


 

Like I said in the intro to my KENPO UPGRADED video series about a year ago,we take these "leg-catching" scenarios as part of our BASIC training.Because we have lotsa experience in these scenarios,we have also developed quite a few very effective methods of preventing it from happening and dealing with it very effectively when it does happens.Knives,multifights with your leg caught (worst case scenario),catch as catch can and jits leg manipulations,throws heaves you name it.That stuff is BASIC.Orange belt material TOPS. I teach disengagement from the catch WITH EACH KICK I TEACH.It's ESSENTIAL imho and dramatically amplifies the confidence that the student has in the deployment of his/her kick.I see that there's more need for drills that I considered to be a no-brainer and that EVERYONE did than I thought...because apparently MOST people may NOT be doing this.

Visavis military and the MA? I think that you're correct in that the military of course spends a great deal more effort in training their warriors in the use of weapons over hand to hand,but I also think that the emphasis changes from culture to culture.In the USA maybe most elite soldiers train weapons to hand to hand in a proportion of say 90/10. In places like Japan,Korea,China,etc. the proportion would very likely differ.Like 80/20. For instance,the person who can front kick your head off is probably going to be better at kicking down doors than your average military specops guy and the guy who can do both is more valuable to his unit. Again...difference in training philosophy.


----------



## yorkshirelad

I'm going to say it again.....right, here goes! Is evryone listening. Hand stand kicks are in no way, shape or form reliable tactics for slf preservation. Capoeira may be an excellent combat system, but from the gymnastis stuff I've seen, it's yet to be proved to me.Atackx showed many videos containing SF personell. I didn't see a handstand kick in any of them, and the flashy stuff was used as part of a demonstration, by a demo team. It has to look flashy to impress.Again, hand stand kicks are not advisable for self preservation unless you are a character in a Jean Claude Van Damme movie!


----------



## yorkshirelad

Again, I'm sorry, but I'm not able to separate paragraphs on this terminal, so my last post is a bit of a mess.


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> I'm going to say it again.....right, here goes! Is evryone listening. Hand stand kicks are in no way, shape or form reliable tactics for slf preservation.


 
I tend to agree.



> Capoeira may be an excellent combat system,


 
thank you for adjusting your phrasing of this point.  I appreciate the consideration and open-mindedness to the possibility.



> but from the gymnastis stuff I've seen, it's yet to be proved to me.Atackx showed many videos containing SF personell. I didn't see a handstand kick in any of them, and the flashy stuff was used as part of a demonstration, by a demo team. It has to look flashy to impress.Again, hand stand kicks are not advisable for self preservation unless you are a character in a Jean Claude Van Damme movie!


 
I honestly do understand your point, and that's been the focus of my own involvement in this thread.  I'm trying to get people to understand that the true combat potential in capoeira lies not in the acrobatics.  The acrobatics exists as another aspect of capoeira that is not generally directly applicable in combat under most circumstances.  I will not say "never" because there may be some folks who can do it, but I would put it as a generally high risk technique and only under limited circumstances.

I really think we need to get away from the notion of video as proof.  It doesn't prove nor disprove anything as a whole.  It only shows one example of something at one time.  It's really anecdotal and not overall proof, tho it can be suggestive of the possibility.  This is something you are really gonna need to take the word of those who have experience with it.  

Most of life does not get recorded for viewing on Youtube.  Video proof does not exist for the vast majority of things in life, including martial arts.  I cannot point to video proof of the combative side of capoeira any more readily than you could point to video proof of whatever accomplishments you claim in the martial arts.  I'm not gonna demand that proof of you as a way of making the point.  I don't believe you have the video to prove your training history and accomplishments, I do not believe such video exists.  But that does not surprise me and I am willing to take your word for it and I will not challenge whatever claims you make as to your own training history and accomplishments.  I would actually be surprised if you DID have such video.  I think that's a reasonable position to take if we want to have a discussion.

But if there is a continued demand for video proof of capoeira's combat usefulness, then I WILL insist on video to document every single claim you make on behalf of your own background.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Said pretty much all that I can say on this subject.  

Daniel


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> thank you for adjusting your phrasing of this point. I appreciate the consideration and open-mindedness to the possibility.
> .


 I have always been open minded to the possibiltiy of Capoeira being a practical art. What I have been saying, with Mr. Sullivan lending a more eloqent narrative is, that what I've seen and experienced of Capoeira is not combat oriented. I have not even said here that head kicks are ineffective. What I have said is that the particular handstand kick in the video, demonstrated by Atacx, is not reliable for the purposes of self-preservation. And vidoe proof is necessary afaic. Atacs has posted numerous clips of combatives and ring sports, but still cannot find any combat oriented Capoeira videos.


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> I have always been open minded to the possibiltiy of Capoeira being a practical art. What I have been saying, with Mr. Sullivan lending a more eloqent narrative is, that what I've seen and experienced of Capoeira is not combat oriented. I have not even said here that head kicks are ineffective. What I have said is that the particular handstand kick in the video, demonstrated by Atacx, is not reliable for the purposes of self-preservation. And vidoe proof is necessary afaic. *Atacs has posted numerous clips of combatives and ring sports, but still cannot find any combat oriented Capoeira videos*.


 
By focusing on this "handstand kick" you are ignoring the vast education that I have so generously laid at your fee.  You really believe such videos must exist?  OK then.

this was taken from your post in this thread, #248:



> Well as a martial artist, doorman, combatives instructor, Infantryman and a man who has been involved in not just a couple of EP details, I'm telling you this,


 
I don't believe any of it.  Martial artist?  Doorman?  Combatives Instructor?  Infantryman?  Not without video.  Show me the video, or I say this is all bunk.  Prove it.  It MUST exist on video for you to share, I mean that's the way the world works, after all...


----------



## Twin Fist

FC, dont be that guy.

We already have one of those guys in this thread, so we dont need another one, and i might add, you are better than that

claims have been made, with NOTHING to back them up, askign for something, ANYTHING besides "i say so" is a pretty fair request


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> I don't believe any of it. Martial artist? Doorman? Combatives Instructor? Infantryman? Not without video. Show me the video, or I say this is all bunk. Prove it. It MUST exist on video for you to share, I mean that's the way the world works, after all...


 
You don't have to. I'm not trying to convince you of what I am or what I was,. You can take what I say or leave it. But for the whole of this thread YOU HAVE been trying to convince me that Capoeira is a valid self preservation art and you have failed to present anything that I can see. If i was to ask an Aikido of Hapkido practitioner to show me something applicable to self preservation, they will not show me Ueshiba performing ninin-dori, they will most likely present me with the Kidotai course, Robert Koga or some of John Pellegrini's DVD material. Atacx showed me a handstand kick. Any video I see of Capoeira on Youtube I just get gymnastics. You obviously really want us to believe in the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, so please SHOW US, thatn is all I'm asking!


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> You don't have to. I'm not trying to convince you of what I am or what I was,. You can take what I say or leave it. But for the whole of this thread YOU HAVE been trying to convince me that Capoeira is a valid self preservation art and you have failed to present anything that I can see. If i was to ask an Aikido of Hapkido practitioner to show me something applicable to self preservation, they will not show me Ueshiba performing ninin-dori, they will most likely present me with the Kidotai course, Robert Koga or some of John Pellegrini's DVD material. Atacx showed me a handstand kick. Any video I see of Capoeira on Youtube I just get gymnastics. You obviously really want us to believe in the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, so please SHOW US, thatn is all I'm asking!


 
hey, you made up the rules, I'm just playing by the same set of rules.  You demand video proof, so I do too.  Otherwise how can I give any credibility to anything you are saying?  I'm concerned that maybe you've misrepresented yourself here and I cannot believe you.

In the face of education you have continued to champion a position of ignorance.  You can change that at any moment, if you choose.  All you need to do is back up for a moment and say, "ya know what?  I don't get capoeira, but I'll admit that I really know nothing about it and am not in a position to make judgement on it."

that's all it takes, a little bit of honestly and objectivity and the barest amount of humility to admit that there are things in this world about which you know nothing.

otherwise, I gotta have some video proof from you.


----------



## ATACX GYM

yorkshirelad said:


> I What I have said is that the particular handstand kick in the video, demonstrated by Atacx, is not reliable for the purposes of self-preservation. And video proof is necessary afaic. Atacs has posted numerous clips of combatives and ring sports, but still cannot find any combat oriented Capoeira videos.


 

First,it's NOT a "handstand kick",it's a CARTWHEEL kick.Important difference.Furthermore,you seem to be basing your entire perspective on a very flawed logic.A straw man.Your attacks on the validity of the cartwheel kick are different than even saying that it's effective but rarely deployable and therefore shouldn't be used in a self-defense altercation (which is Daniel Sullivan's position,as I understand it).Headbutts,low line kicks,punches,elbows,knees,takedowns,slams,sweeps,eye rakes,biting,gouging,weapons,weapon defense...in short,the entire gamut of martial arts is fully within the arsenal of capoeira instead.I already told you...I will be shooting more capoeira videos with these techs in them.Yet you ignore this statement of mine.Maybe you missed it.

Second? There are INCREDIBLY FEW instances of authentic attacks being foiled by ANY martial art on film; and that goes ten times more for an art that was outlawed but still upended slavers; an art that relied far more upon guile trickery dissembling and more to survive until modern times.Flying Crane's comment about the perils of equating lack of video with lack of validation or even EXISTENCE is a legit concern.I suggest you read it on the previous page.



yorkshirelad said:


> I have always been open minded to the possibiltiy of Capoeira being a practical art.


 
*Third: You have NOT been open-minded "all the time" EVEN ON THIS THREAD*. Your first position and main position has been THIS:



yorkshirelad said:


> This is how I see things gentlemen -
> 
> Capoeira, regardless of the syle is a badass art. The conditioning needed to pull off most of the techniques is truly extraordinary. I don't believe, however that teaching Capoeira to the average guy as a method of self protection is useful in the slightest. You can show me all your Capoeira skills and wow me with the bollocks, but you'll never NEVER convince me that it is a viable method of self protectio.
> 
> Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.
> 
> I also used the example of Tohei Sensei of Aikido to illustrate the fact that prodigies do exist, but as John pointed out they are few and far between.
> 
> Atacks, you may quite well be a prodigy. Listening to you rant on, anyone would think that you the ultimate warrior. You may well be able to take on the army of Xerxes with just your left foot and be back home in time for tea and crumpets, but the rest of us mere mortals don't think your methods hold sway for the average Joe.
> 
> One other thing Atacks, you really seem to have a potato sized chip on your shoulder. I don't know anyone else here, who can start a debate on a Martial arts topic and have it turned into a racial thread.


 
You started off nice enough for about two sentences,then went about dissing capoeira,dissing me,making utterly false assumptions about a chip on my shoulder,and accusing me of injecting race into this topic.All of which have been profoundly disproven over and over again.



yorkshirelad said:


> Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.


 

You *DO* realize that somebody who "will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter" (as you said) is someone who can catch you with a head kick in self defense? Because self-defense qualifies as "anywhere else".


Flying Crane said:


> hey, you made up the rules, I'm just playing by the same set of rules. You demand video proof, so I do too. Otherwise how can I give any credibility to anything you are saying? I'm concerned that maybe you've misrepresented yourself here and I cannot believe you.
> 
> In the face of education you have continued to champion a position of ignorance. You can change that at any moment, if you choose. All you need to do is back up for a moment and say, "ya know what? I don't get capoeira, but I'll admit that I really know nothing about it and am not in a position to make judgement on it."
> 
> that's all it takes, a little bit of honestly and objectivity and the barest amount of humility to admit that there are things in this world about which you know nothing.
> 
> otherwise, I gotta have some video proof from you.


 
^^^That about sums it up.And if all you need is "nonacrobatic" combat capoeira to assuage your fears? I have a dozen videos coming up in the next 2 weeks like I said that address that matter.

Now.Can we put the differences aside and explore other issues regarding capoeira? Maybe even evident similarities between capoeira and other arts? I can provide video evidence of that to get the discussion started if the people on this thread want it.


----------



## yorkshirelad

ATACX GYM said:


> First,it's NOT a "handstand kick",it's a CARTWHEEL kick.Important difference.Furthermore,you seem to be basing your entire perspective on a very flawed logic.A straw man.Your attacks on the validity of the cartwheel kick are different than even saying that it's effective but rarely deployable and therefore shouldn't be used in a self-defense altercation (which is Daniel Sullivan's position,as I understand it).Headbutts,low line kicks,punches,elbows,knees,takedowns,slams,sweeps,eye rakes,biting,gouging,weapons,weapon defense...in short,the entire gamut of martial arts is fully within the arsenal of capoeira instead.I already told you...I will be shooting more capoeira videos with these techs in them.Yet you ignore this statement of mine.Maybe you missed it..


 
Handstand, cartwheel, it's semantics! Listen fella, my views of Capoeira are based on my experience of Capoeira, experience watching videos and partaking of a few fun sessions on the beach. I saw no combat techniques in it. I'm asking you to show me, just show me. I want to see a Capoeira master teaching a combat form of Capoeira, that's all. You are desperate to make the world believe that Capoeira work as a combat art, so show the world. Remember, this whole thread began with you teaching a technique that is irresponsible to teach a class and tout as self preservation. *Again, it is potentially more dangerous to use it than not.*



ATACX GYM said:


> Second? *There are INCREDIBLY FEW instances of authentic attacks being foiled by ANY martial art on film;* and that goes ten times more for an art that was outlawed but still upended slavers; an art that relied far more upon guile trickery dissembling and more to survive until modern times.Flying Crane's comment about the perils of equating lack of video with lack of validation or even EXISTENCE is a legit concern.I suggest you read it on the previous page..


 
There are many examples of boxers fighting on the street and winning. Remember boxing is a martial sport, but was used by the British Army as a combat art for years.

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7PMp-yXHT0&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3DBoxers%2Bin%2Bstreet%2Bfights%26aq%3Df&has_verified=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZLaOpFMzo8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0dS5n-A5ow&feature=related

Where were the Triple Lindy kicks in these videos. Why didn't people use them? I'll tell you why, because if they had, they would've ended up getting their faces stomped into the ground.



ATACX GYM said:


> You started off nice enough for about two sentences,then went about dissing capoeira,dissing me,making utterly false assumptions about a chip on my shoulder,and accusing me of injecting race into this topic.All of which have been profoundly disproven over and over again..


 
You do have a chip on your shoulder! It's one thing to tell us about slaves rsing up against their persecutors, but calling the gentry names is giving us an insight into your mentality. Slavery is over in Brazil, you don't have to be angry about it anymore. You shuld be more angry at certain Africans who still partake in the practise! 




ATACX GYM said:


> You *DO* realize that somebody who "will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter" (as you said) is someone who *can *catch you with a head kick in self defense? Because self-defense qualifies as "anywhere else"..


 
I do realize this! But I realize that anyone with at least half a mind, in a combat scenario will not try such a tactic, because of the risk it presents to them. Show me any combatives videos that shows a hand stand or cartwheel or Triple Lindy kick. i've scoured the Applegate collection...can't find those kicks. I've perused the Fairbain collection...can't find the kicks. I even looked through the Systema vids and guess what...I can't find the kicks.



ATACX GYM said:


> That about sums it up.And if all you need is "nonacrobatic" combat capoeira to assuage your *fears*? I have a dozen videos coming up in the next 2 weeks like I said that address that matter..


 
My only fears are that one of your students will get his head kicked in using your teachings. I'd love to see these vids. But what I'm after is a video of a capoeira master teaching his art. I want to see something other than gymnastics from capoeira, and up to the present time, I haven't seen it!




ATACX GYM said:


> *Now.Can we put the differences aside and explore other issues regarding capoeira?* Maybe even evident similarities between capoeira and other arts? I can provide video evidence of that to get the discussion started if the people on this thread want it.


 
Now this sounds good!


----------



## jks9199

Alright, folks.  Let's keep this discussion polite.  It is possible to debate this without crossing the lines and making me go all moderator on you.  In case you're missing the point --

*ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.
*


----------



## Archangel M

Capoeria is dance, with some gymnastics thrown in. Capoerists (sp?) with pretensions of practicing a fighting art equate to Kendo practitioners who think that they could survive an authentic sword fight.

I agree with what was said upthread. Almost all REAL fights share common appearances regardless of style. And almost all of them look like boxing and wrestling/judo/jujitsu. Even the Capoeria practitioners that started "real" fighting in the videos posted way upthread.


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> Listen fella, my views of Capoeira are based on my experience of Capoeira, experience watching videos and *partaking of a few fun sessions on the beach.*


 
I don't believe you.  Show me the video of these sessions.  They surely MUST exist, after all.

A man who has shown the level of integrity that you have in this thread would NEVER demand something of others that he himself could never produce.  It would be dishonorable, after all.

Show me the video.


----------



## Flying Crane

Archangel M said:


> Capoeria is dance, with some gymnastics thrown in. Capoerists (sp?) with pretensions of practicing a fighting art equate to Kendo practitioners who think that they could survive an authentic sword fight.


 
you are showing your ignorance.  Go back and re-read some of the earlier posts where I have explained what capoeira is, and where the acrobatics actually fit in.


----------



## Flying Crane

ATACX GYM said:


> And if all you need is "nonacrobatic" combat capoeira to assuage your fears? I have a dozen videos coming up in the next 2 weeks like I said that address that matter.


 
I'm gonna suggest you don't bother.  Seems to me the readership here largely lacks the capacity.


----------



## Twin Fist

FC
you are better than this.


----------



## yorkshirelad

Twin Fist said:


> FC
> you are better than this.


 
Twin, Archangel, as I am getting no answers from either Atacks or FC, can you tell me, from your point of view where I am going wrong with asking to see videos? Is it in some way insulting that I should ask to see a visual representation of the Combat effectiveness of Capoeira? I would ask this question of FC, but he seems to have entered the realm crazed anger.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

yorkshirelad said:


> You don't have to. I'm not trying to convince you of what I am or what I was,. You can take what I say or leave it. But for the whole of this thread YOU HAVE been trying to convince me that Capoeira is a valid self preservation art and you have failed to present anything that I can see. *If i was to ask an Aikido of Hapkido practitioner to show me something applicable to self preservation, they will not show me Ueshiba performing ninin-dori, they will most likely present me with the Kidotai course, Robert Koga or some of John Pellegrini's DVD material. Atacx showed me a handstand kick. Any video I see of Capoeira on Youtube I just get gymnastics. You obviously really want us to believe in the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, so please SHOW US, thatn is all I'm asking!*


I believe that the lack of video was addressed in this post when FC responded to my question about the existence of combat oriented training drills (bolded by me):



Flying Crane said:


> alright, I understand that tho I've not reviewed any of the videos linked other than the original one. I find most of the videos posted on youtube do not do the system (or any system for that matter) much justice.
> 
> I highly doubt also that there are any videos out there of a capoeirista trouncing the bad guys for real. Video proof does not exist for everything. Some things are gonna have to be taken on faith when we are having a long-distance discussion.
> 
> *are their training videos for a more self-defense/combative oriented version of capoeira? Not to my knowledge.*


He followed this up with what I considered a more than reasonable summation:



Flying Crane said:


> here's the thing. Capoeira has a whole lot of techniques that are familiar and common to other arts. They've got front heel kicks and front snap kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks, crescent kicks, hook kicks, and some that are unique to capoeira like the meia lua de compasso (take your head right off your shoulders, that one will). They've got hand strikes, elbow strikes, head butts, trips, sweeps and takedowns. They've got a huge movement and footwork language, as well as unique ways to position and move and re-position, and none of this is acrobatics or "dance". It's not difficult to look at that list and realize that all it takes is a recognition that you drive in and hit someone with that stuff and you are doing what any karateka/muay thai/kenpo/whatever guy is doing. They all teach the same skills. Capoeira uses a different platform and methodology, and has some unique techniques, but in a real fight it's gonna look very much the same. The roda, the game of capoeira, creates a different mindset and that needs to be understood as something separate from real fighting. That's important. But capoeira teaches all the tools that are commonly found in many systems for fighting.
> 
> I'm the only person here who has actually listed my capoeira background. I know a few other people have some significant experience as well but none of them have bothered to list in detail. I suspect I may be the most experienced capoeirista on this forum. I don't know that for sure, but I believe it's possible. I'm trying to give a realistic description of what capoeira really is, but people want to keep arguing over a handstand or a cartwheel. I understand that is what opened the thread, but I'll say here, as (possibly) the senior ranking capoeirista on this forum, that that is not a realistic strategy for fighting, tho as I mentioned earlier I believe there CAN be some LIMITED use for such techniques, under certain circumstances.
> 
> *If people wanna keep arguing over a cartwheel, well go ahead.* The really silly thing about this is, I don't even train capoeira anymore and haven't done so in a number of years. I also decided, "not the right match for me", and I believe there are often some questionable and even hazardous training practices that are done in many schools, things that have a high possibility of leading to injury. But I know that underneath it all capoeira has all the potential of any system for fighting, if it is properly trained and realized. But I don't even do it anymore and the silly thing is that I'm here beating my head against a wall trying to educate people who have no experience nor understanding of capoeira, and seem hell-bent on not being educated. I don't know why I'm bothering with it because in truth I don't care what people think of it. Let 'em think it's stupid. Underestimating one's opponent is a great way to get your *** handed to you someday.


In fairness, pretty much everyone, FC included, has said that techniques along the lines of cartwheels and handstands are in the 'arty' aspect of capoeira and that the practical matieral is similar to what you'll see in other arts.

Everyone seems to agree, but one individual is arguing the merits of such techniques. Dissent is always a good thing, so its cool by me. I don't agree with him (at least not the way that he has presented it thus far), *but* variety is the spice of life and I am certainly open to being proven wrong. 

But I think that what we have is essentially two separate discussions going on at once: 
1. Capoeira has practical SD oriented techniques in addition to the flashy acrobatic techniques.

2. Cartwheel kicks and high kicks are viable techniques in self defense. 

I see the first one as art-specific and the other one as more of a general cross-art subject.

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> Twin, Archangel, as I am getting no answers from either Atacks or FC, can you tell me, from your point of view where I am going wrong with asking to see videos? Is it in some way insulting that I should ask to see a visual representation of the Combat effectiveness of Capoeira? I would ask this question of FC, but he seems to have entered the realm crazed anger.


 
crazed anger? now THAT is funny! No sir, I'm not angry with you but I do find you silly.

I've answered your question several times in this thread, most recently in this one. Note the bolded portion:




Flying Crane said:


> I tend to agree.
> 
> 
> 
> thank you for adjusting your phrasing of this point. I appreciate the consideration and open-mindedness to the possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly do understand your point, and that's been the focus of my own involvement in this thread. I'm trying to get people to understand that the true combat potential in capoeira lies not in the acrobatics. The acrobatics exists as another aspect of capoeira that is not generally directly applicable in combat under most circumstances. I will not say "never" because there may be some folks who can do it, but I would put it as a generally high risk technique and only under limited circumstances.
> 
> I really think we need to get away from the notion of video as proof. It doesn't prove nor disprove anything as a whole. It only shows one example of something at one time. It's really anecdotal and not overall proof, tho it can be suggestive of the possibility. This is something you are really gonna need to take the word of those who have experience with it.
> 
> *Most of life does not get recorded for viewing on Youtube. Video proof does not exist for the vast majority of things in life, including martial arts. I cannot point to video proof of the combative side of capoeira any more readily than you could point to video proof of whatever accomplishments you claim in the martial arts.* I'm not gonna demand that proof of you as a way of making the point. I don't believe you have the video to prove your training history and accomplishments, I do not believe such video exists. But that does not surprise me and I am willing to take your word for it and I will not challenge whatever claims you make as to your own training history and accomplishments. I would actually be surprised if you DID have such video. I think that's a reasonable position to take if we want to have a discussion_._
> 
> But if there is a continued demand for video proof of capoeira's combat usefulness, then I WILL insist on video to document every single claim you make on behalf of your own background.


 
You'll also note the portion following the bolded, wherein I indicate that I don't see reason to ask for proof from you for everything you state, but that I would need to do so if you continue to insist on video proof for capoeira. In short sir, I allowed you to make the rules, and I am simply playing by the rules you made.

I've given you numerous ways to stop this silly game and still save face. I've suggested you back away and recognize that you simply lack even a basic understanding of capoeira (something that is understandable and does not diminish your status), yet you have not done so. I don't know what other escape routes I can offer you, as you have refused to take any that have been extended so far.

I'll ask you this: what is your motivation here? Why is it so important to you, to insist that capoeira (an art that you are not connected to), is not a viable fighting system?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> Your attacks on the validity of the cartwheel kick are different than even saying that *it's effective but rarely deployable and therefore shouldn't be used in a self-defense altercation* (which is Daniel Sullivan's position,as I understand it).


Essentially.  A better way to put it is that they are not advisable as 'go to' techniques in a self defense situations because their applicability is the exception rather than the rule.

Flukes happen.  Unexptected techniques deployed can certainly be effective.  Depends greatly on the combatants in question.  

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATACX GYM said:


> And if all you need is "nonacrobatic" combat capoeira to assuage your fears?


Not fears; intellectual curiosity.


ATACX GYM said:


> I have a dozen videos coming up in the next 2 weeks like I said that address that matter.


Should you post them, I will look forward to seeing them, though personally, I'm willing to take F/C at his word.

Daniel


----------



## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> I'll ask you this: what is your motivation here? Why is it so important to you, to insist that capoeira (an art that you are not connected to), is not a viable fighting system?


 
My motivation is simply that I want to see combat Capoeira. There is instructional material on thousands of arts out there, but I've never seen anything of the system of Capoeira you and Atacx speak about. Atacx told us that there is a combat version of Capoeira that he, himself has had experience of and, then shows us a handstand kick as a practical instrument of combat. If the range of actual, realistic combatives techniques is as wide as you say it is, why would Atacx choose to demonstrate such a ludicrously dangerous kick? It just doesn't ad up to me!As for vidoes of me doing Capoeira, I doubt there is any. Maybe there are a couple of photos somewher, but this is ok with me. Why should I want anyone to see me flopping around on the beach like an epileptic whale?My limited (not more than 4 sessions) of capoeira was with Motoca, who was an instructor at Capoeira Centrosul in Huntington Beach. The whole thing seemed to be a combination of conditioning, gymnastics and dance. It's beautiful and challenging, but as a combat art, it just ddin't hold water.


----------



## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Everyone seems to agree, but one individual is arguing the merits of such techniques. Dissent is always a good thing, so its cool by me. I don't agree with him, but variety is the spice of life.
> 
> But I think that what we have is essentially two separate discussions going on at once:
> 1. Capoeira has practical SD oriented techniques in addition to the flashy acrobatic techniques.
> 
> 2. *Cartwheel kicks and high kicks are viable techniques in self defense*.
> 
> 
> Daniel


 
I am going to take a moment to make some comments on this particular issue, the cartwheel kick that opened the thread.

First off, as I've stated several times in this thread, I do not view the acrobatics as a viable strategy for combat. They exist in capoeira as a different aspect of the art. However, I do believe that in LIMITED ways, SOME of those acrobatic aspects MAY be useful in combat. I will not say that absolutely, no way could they ever be used. Let me put it this way: just because YOU cannot do something doesn't mean SOMEONE ELSE cannot do it. Maybe SOMEONE ELSE is just gifted, or maybe YOU are inept, or maybe some of both. This is largely what the martial arts are all about, after all: developing skills that most other people cannot do. (and by YOU, I am referring to the hypothetical YOU, and not Daniel Sullivan specifically).

Now, ATAX posted that cartwheel kick as something he was playing with and finding use for. Lets look at the bigger picture here: ATAX is actually pretty new to capoeira, having studied for something like a year. I believe he posted that earlier in the thread. He's a newbie to capoeira, but he's an experienced martial artist otherwise. He's been over on Kenpotalk as well as here and he's been posting prolificaly about things he's working on, including video examples. I believe he's been training for something like 30 years (that's maybe 3 years longer that I've been in the martial arts), including a 5th degree black belt in a kenpo lineage and experience with a number of other systems as well. So he's got a good deal of experience and is no newcomer to the martial arts.

After I posted my own history with Capoeira, to his credit ATAX kind of deferred to me as a more experienced authority on capoeira than he is. He stated as much in a following post and I give him kudos for that.

ATAX is finding new possibilities with capoeira than what he had in his previous training. Capoeira is different and has some unique ways of approaching things with a very rich body of movement and unusual solutions. This can open a lot of doors for people, and in my experience I've often seen this happen with people who are new and enthusiastic about the art. The approach is so different from other methods that it's a real eye-opener and can become addicting (been there, done that my own self). Given his prior experience and insights I am not surprised that he would start working with the capoeira material and looking for ways to make it work outside the roda. I do not know his instructor, nor specifically how they are training. But I am not surprised that someone with his background would make this kind of experiment. From the video, I cannot say for sure if it has merit or not. Maybe it does, maybe not, maybe he is that SOMEONE ELSE who can make it work even if YOU cannot.

I see that video as him sharing his experiment with the forum here. "Hey everyone, look at what I'm working on, this is an experiment". OK, he didnt' present it quite that way, but I've got that insight from years of seeing it in new capoeira students, and having been one and done that myself. That's how I take his video in the opening post.

I'm actually trying to be the voice of reason in all this here. I just cannot understand why a group of outsiders who have no connection to capoeira are so hell-bent on insisting that it is not a viable fighting method. Whether it is or is not has absolutely no bearing on what these outsiders are doing themselves. The value of their own methods lies on their own shoulders, and has nothing to do with the viability of capoeira. I really get the impression that there are people here who somehow feel threatened by the possibility that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE there are some capoeira people out there who can fight like a goddam tiger. Perish the thought.


----------



## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> My motivation is simply that I want to see combat Capoeira. There is instructional material on thousands of arts out there, but I've never seen anything of the system of Capoeira you and Atacx speak about. Atacx told us that there is a combat version of Capoeira that he, himself has had experience of and, then shows us a handstand kick as a practical instrument of combat. If the range of actual, realistic combatives techniques is as wide as you say it is, why would Atacx choose to demonstrate such a ludicrously dangerous kick? It just doesn't ad up to me!As for vidoes of me doing Capoeira, I doubt there is any. Maybe there are a couple of photos somewher, but this is ok with me. Why should I want anyone to see me flopping around on the beach like an epileptic whale?My limited (not more than 4 sessions) of capoeira was with Motoca, who was an instructor at Capoeira Centrosul in Huntington Beach. The whole thing seemed to be a combination of conditioning, gymnastics and dance. It's beautiful and challenging, but as a combat art, it just ddin't hold water.


 
why do you believe that everything must exist on video, or it doesn't exist at all?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

yorkshirelad said:


> My motivation is simply that I want to see combat Capoeira. There is instructional material on thousands of arts out there, but I've never seen anything of the system of Capoeira you and Atacx speak about. Atacx told us that there is a combat version of Capoeira that he, himself has had experience of and, then shows us a handstand kick as a practical instrument of combat. If the range of actual, realistic combatives techniques is as wide as you say it is, why would Atacx choose to demonstrate such a ludicrously dangerous kick? It just doesn't ad up to me!As for vidoes of me doing Capoeira, I doubt there is any. Maybe there are a couple of photos somewher, but this is ok with me. Why should I want anyone to see me flopping around on the beach like an epileptic whale?My limited (not more than 4 sessions) of capoeira was with Motoca, who was an instructor at Capoeira Centrosul in Huntington Beach. The whole thing seemed to be a combination of conditioning, gymnastics and dance. It's beautiful and challenging, but as a combat art, it just ddin't hold water.


I suspect that there is no "combat capoeira" as a separate system, just as there is no combat TKD as a separate system. It is likely all taught as part of a whole. Thus, I can, as a longtime taekwondoin, separate for you the practical aspect of the art from the arty aspect and those from the sport aspect.

FC can comment more informatively, but perhaps Capoeira, like hapkido, has groups who each have a different mix of techniques.

Daniel


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## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I suspect that there is no "combat capoeira" as a separate system, just as there is no combat TKD as a separate system. It is likely all taught as part of a whole. Thus, I can, as a longtime taekwondoin, separate for you the practical aspect of the art from the arty aspect and those from the sport aspect.
> 
> FC can comment more informatively, but perhaps Capoeira, like hapkido, has groups who each have a different mix of techniques.
> 
> Daniel


 
sure, I'll explain this again as it seems to have largely slipped by most people here.

The main thing is in the focus of the training.  The martial techniques exist in the art no matter what you are trainnig for, whether it's the "game/roda" aspect, or to be a fighter.  But if you are training for the game, there will be a much higher inclusion of the acrobatics and creating a physical dialog between the players.  Attacks and defenses exist within the game, but they are shown and implied rather than landed.  To land an attack disrupts the flow and the physical dialog and destroys the game.  So when people are training for the game they tend to limit that contact so as to not destroy what is being built.  At the same time, the players and members of the circle all know who is winning and who is losing.  No points are kept, but it's obvious to all involved who has outplayed the other.

To fight with capoeira is to take it outside the game context.  This would in most cases also minimize or even eliminate the acrobatics.  In this context the training should include much more contact and direct striking and might look more like a very fluid karate or kung fu drill.  I believe it would not look much like capoeira in the roda, the music and rythmic aspects might be removed altho those can be useful for keeping the training energy.  But that "dance" and "play" aspects would not show thru; it would be all business.

I'll go on record to say (again, I've said this at least a couple times in this thread) that I believe most schools at least in the US train for the roda and not for the fight.  Some schools may include a small amount of fight training but from what I've seen I believe the approach isn't what it needs to be to really be fight training.  I believe that a lot of instructors do not understand how to properly train capoeira to fight, because the game/roda has become so prevalent.  Likewise, some games can become very close to a fight, as the players become combative, violent and injurious to each other.  These games lack flow and physical dialog and have aggression instead, in the context of the roda.  So a lot of this is found somewhere along a continuum.  It is often impossible to paint things in black or white and say "IT'S THIS!" or "IT'S THAT!" and nothing else.  That's just the nature of capoeira.

However, just because most mainstream capoeira makes the game the primary/only focus, does not mean that capoeira no longer has what it takes to be a fighting method.  For those who pursue that road of trainnig, it is absoluty viable as a fighting method.  For others, not so much.  And just because the hypothetical YOU haven't seen it, cannot do it, cannot find a video of it, that doesn't mean it's not there.  It just means YOU do not understand it, haven't learned it, haven't experienced it, or that the folks who do know this aren't interested in sharing it with you.


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## yorkshirelad

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I suspect that there is no &quot;combat capoeira&quot; as a separate system, just as there is no combat TKD as a separate system. It is likely all taught as part of a whole. Thus, I can, as a longtime taekwondoin, separate for you the practical aspect of the art from the arty aspect and those from the sport aspect.
> 
> FC can comment more informatively, but perhaps Capoeira, like hapkido, has groups who each have a different mix of techniques.
> 
> Daniel


 
Good points Daniel! I have perused various martial arts on youtube and other video sources and have gained some valuable insight into the combative application of these arts. I recently looked through some of the katas in the Takamatsuden and found them impractical. I then saw some of the henka and was given some historical insight and the proverbial light stitch went on. If the people performing the katas had said, "They work, just take me at my word", I would have found it a little odd, and rather amusing. Instead I was given the links to the henka and I was illuminated. Now, If I was teaching a combatives class to a military or LEO unit, and I suddenly went into a cartwheel kick, you can bet I would get a few strange looks. If, let's say three students in the class were gymnasts and could actually pull the technique off. I could use this as an argument that the technique works, but the other members of the cadre would probably call me out for being negligent for teaching such a technique. Why? Because, regardless of who you are, being in a position where you are standing on your hands, for however short a time you are in the position, in front of an attacker who is intent on doing you damage is extremely dangerous. Can we all just agree that this kick should not be taught for combative purposes? Once again, but on this terminal, I cannot separate paragraphs.


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## fangjian

Twin Fist said:


> no, he doesnt, he is correct
> 
> we have begged for evidence of a combat system of this crap, and no one can produce any.
> instead, people have tried to convince us that acrobatics and flippy gymnastics are combat effective (which is horse ****) while claiming but not showng that there is more to it
> 
> put up or....well, you know the rest



Hehehee. I find it ironic that, all of a sudden, you want _evidence_ now, when you were making fun of me and calling me _arrogant_, in another thread just because I don't believe in your Cosmological claims. So by your logic, you are _arrogant_ too now.

BTW, *I* don't think you are arrogant for questioning a claim that you feel lacks evidence. That's just what _you_ said. 

In regards to Capoeira's self defense potential, it seems like many of their techniques and skills, would have to be practiced for quite a while to make applicable and effective. However, I have seen some videos of Capoeiristas doing some interesting self defense stuff which was definitely applicable. I am curious though, if this is stuff that was picked up elsewhere and they are attributing it to Capoeira. You could give me a Salsa routine and I could give you many fighting concepts from the movements, but that really wasn't Salsa. I do this with my Modern Wushu forms. I put everything else I learned from other styles and teach many applications for the wushu movements, but I don't lie about where it came from.

Regarding the claim, that there are many mestres in Brazil who truly teach the fighting concepts and such  ( by FC ) , I don't see why that is so unreasonable. I would assume that to be true.


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## Flying Crane

fangjian said:


> Regarding the claim, that there are many mestres in Brazil who truly teach the fighting concepts and such ( by FC ) , I don't see why that is so unreasonable. I would assume that to be true.


 
Just to be clear, I actually do not know that for a fact.  I've only stated that from what I've observed in the US, most schools train for the roda and do not properly train for fighting.  What is going on in Brazil is something I do not know.

I have stated that I've met some very skilled teachers from Brazil who can definitely take care of business.  I know this because I've taken class with them and I've played in the roda with them and I've seen them play some VERY aggressive games with others, games that approached blatant combat.  I know what they can do and I'm smart enough to know I don't want to be on the receiving end of that situation.

Outside of the roda, I doubt very much that anyone will find meaningful videos of capoeira.  To my knowledge, instructional videos do not exists (I don't actually pay a lot of attention to the capoeira world any more so It's possible that they do exist, and I recollect that back in the late 1980s or so Amen Santos in LA made some videos tho I have no idea if they are still available and I've never seen them myself).

I do not believe you will find video of a capoeira guy beating off genuine attackers, any more than you are likely to find video of a kenpo guy fighting off genuine attackers.  Life simply is not caught on video to be posted on Youtube for all the rubberneckers.


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## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> sure, I'll explain this again as it seems to have largely slipped by most people here.
> .


Go ahead!





Flying Crane said:


> The main thing is in the focus of the training.  The martial techniques exist in the art no matter what you are trainnig for, whether it's the &quot;game/roda&quot; aspect, or to be a fighter.  But if you are training for the game, there will be a much higher inclusion of the acrobatics and creating a physical dialog between the players.  Attacks and defenses exist within the game, but they are shown and implied rather than landed.  To land an attack disrupts the flow and the physical dialog and destroys the game.  So when people are training for the game they tend to limit that contact so as to not destroy what is being built.  At the same time, the players and members of the circle all know who is winning and who is losing.  No points are kept, but it's obvious to all involved who has outplayed the other.
> .


So now you're saying that there is no separate system of Capoeira. So this means that the cartwheel kick is in the repetoire of combative techniques, which is rather silly. 





Flying Crane said:


> To fight with capoeira is to take it outside the game context.  This would in most cases also minimize or even eliminate the acrobatics.  In this context the training should include much more contact and direct striking and might look more like a very fluid karate or kung fu drill.  I believe it would not look much like capoeira in the roda, the music and rythmic aspects might be removed altho those can be useful for keeping the training energy.  But that &quot;dance&quot; and &quot;play&quot; aspects would not show thru; it would be all business.


This doesn't make sense to me either! You learn the dance as a method of combat, but when you're actually in combat, it becomes a free for all and doesn't resemble the art at all? Is this what you're trying to say?





Flying Crane said:


> However, just because most mainstream capoeira makes the game the primary/only focus, does not mean that capoeira no longer has what it takes to be a fighting method.  For those who pursue that road of trainnig, it is absoluty viable as a fighting method.  For others, not so much.  And just because the hypothetical YOU haven't seen it, cannot do it, cannot find a video of it, that doesn't mean it's not there.  It just means YOU do not understand it, haven't learned it, haven't experienced it, or that the folks who do know this aren't interested in sharing it with you.


I haven't seen it, not anywhere! In fact, because of my involvement in this thread, I've made more of an effort to find something that resembles combat oriented technique, but I haven't. You should've told me earlier that Capoeira is the dance I've seen everywhere else on Youtube and admonished me some time ago for not being an experienced enough Martial Artist to discern the dancey Triple Lindy kicks from the combative Triple Lindy kicks. Now, let's start a &quot;no touch Knockout&quot; thread. You can then try to convince me of the viability of such a technique in a combat scenario!


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## Flying Crane

Flying Crane said:


> or that the folks who do know this aren't interested in sharing it with you.


 


yorkshirelad said:


> Go ahead!So now you're saying that there is no separate system of Capoeira. So this means that the cartwheel kick is in the repetoire of combative techniques, which is rather silly. This doesn't make sense to me either! You learn the dance as a method of combat, but when you're actually in combat, it becomes a free for all and doesn't resemble the art at all? Is this what you're trying to say?I haven't seen it, not anywhere! In fact, because of my involvement in this thread, I've made more of an effort to find something that resembles combat oriented technique, but I haven't. You should've told me earlier that Capoeira is the dance I've seen everywhere else on Youtube and admonished me some time ago for not being an experienced enough Martial Artist to discern the dancey Triple Lindy kicks from the combative Triple Lindy kicks. Now, let's start a &quot;no touch Knockout&quot; thread. You can then try to convince me of the viability of such a technique in a combat scenario!


 
This might have something to do with it:



Flying Crane said:


> or that the folks who do know this aren't interested in sharing it with you.


 
and it might have something to do with how you present yourself.

and my earlier comment that the readership here lacks the capacity.


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## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> This might have something to do with it:
> 
> 
> 
> and it might have something to do with how you present yourself.
> 
> 
> and my earlier comment that the readership here lacks the capacity.


Nice, answering my post personal attacks, isn't going to make your position correct! Go and have some camomile tea and take a twenty minute nap. You'll feel a lot better!


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## fangjian

yorkshirelad said:


> Now, let's start a &quot;no touch Knockout&quot; thread. You can then try to convince me of the viability of such a technique in a combat scenario!



Nah. 

The more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence has to be. To claim that there exist Capoeira schools that focus on self defense is not at the same level as claiming no touch knockouts. One of those claims will require much more evidence.


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## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> Nice, answering my post personal attacks, isn't going to make your position correct! Go and have some camomile tea and take a twenty minute nap. You'll feel a lot better!


 
sir, you are on a downward spiral and are losing more face with every post you make.  It's become embarrassing.


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## yorkshirelad

fangjian said:


> Nah.
> 
> 
> The more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence has to be. To claim that there exist Capoeira schools that focus on self defense is not at the same level as claiming no touch knockouts. One of those claims will require much more evidence.


I was trying to be humourous, but my smilies are disabled on this terminal!


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## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> sir, you are on a downward spiral and are losing more face with every post you make.  It's become embarrassing.


I don't think so Fella! You just did a full 180 and conceded that the combat version of Capoeira is the dance we've all been talking about here. Now, according to you we are not astute enough to pull the combat techniques out of it. apparently Mr. Parker was working on a book, just before he died titled &quot;Everyday gestures that can save your life&quot;. My wife is a gymnast. Would I tell her that a handstand kick will be beneficial against an attempted rape? No! Why? Because it's not! And no amount of insulting posts from you will make it so! By the way, the embarassement comes from people making extraordinary claims about the effectiveness of dangerous handstands in combat


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## fangjian

I don't know how much it's been mentioned but I saw posted earlier that people will show off the most impressive parts of their style. As mentioned, that's why we see so many videos of the acrobatic stuff when it comes to Capoeira. Like Chinese martial arts, you mostly see very acrobatic routines, because they look awesome. So if someone claims that there exist wushu schools that focus on self defense, someone whose only seen the showy forms might call, _bullsh!t._ But we all know that there are gong fu schools that solely focus on self defense, and if it's at all showy, than that's a side effect and not the purpose itself. Like Capoeira, It seems reasonable that there would be schools that focus on combat.


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## Daniel Sullivan

It was mentioned.  But people are still stuck on handstands and cartwheels.

Daniel


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## yorkshirelad

fangjian said:


> I don't know how much it's been mentioned but I saw posted earlier that people will show off the most impressive parts of their style. As mentioned, that's why we see so many videos of the acrobatic stuff when it comes to Capoeira. Like Chinese martial arts, you mostly see very acrobatic routines, because they look awesome. So if someone claims that there exist wushu schools that focus on self defense, someone whose only seen the showy forms might call bullsh!t. But we all know that there are gong fu schools that solely focus on self defense, and if it's at all showy, than that's a side effect and not the purpose itself. Like Capoeira, It seems reasonable that there would be schools that focus on combat.


It does seem however, that someone who presents a handstand kick as a combatives technique to demonstrate the "effectiveness" of Capoeira, has no idea about the reality of real world violence. As I've said before, if Atacx had showed me headbutting techniques from a close attack and said he got this from his Capoeira repetoire, I would've said, "Nice one mate, it looks effective to me!" That didn't happen though. On one hand Atacs has been arguing that the cartwheel kick is a reliable method of self preservation, while on the other hand FC was arguing that this type of technique is not the entirety of Capoeira and that it has a distinctly practical side. Now he is arguing that what we have all seen as Capoeira is, in reality the full spectrum of Capoeira, but it can't be practised as a combat system because that would distrupt the flow and if it is practised as a combat system it bears little resemblance to what is taught as Capoeira. can you understand how this can be construed as utter nonsense?


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## yorkshirelad

fangjian said:


> It seems reasonable that there would be schools that focus on combat.


It does seem reasonable in theory, but nobody can show me!


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## Daniel Sullivan

yorkshirelad said:


> On one hand Atacs has been arguing that the cartwheel kick is a reliable method of self preservation, while on the other hand FC was arguing that this type of technique is not the entirety of Capoeira and that it has a distinctly practical side. Now he is arguing that what we have all seen as Capoeira is, in reality the full spectrum of Capoeira, *but it can't be practised as a combat system because that would distrupt the flow and if it is practised as a combat system it bears little resemblance to what is taught as Capoeira. *can you understand how this can be construed as utter nonsense?


That isn't exactly what he said.  He was describing the sport/competition aspect of the art.  This is similar to what is seen in taekwondo: a kicking game with high kicks to the head that looks nothing like the pumse or breaking techniques (the three things you'll see at a tournament).  Striking your opponent in the throat with an arch hand would be an example of using practical TKD.  So would a low side kick to the knee.  But those would disrupt the flow of the tourney.

Also like TKD, SD is taught more seldomly than the WTF sporting style.  Doesn't mean that there isn't a practical element in taekwondo, but sparring at most dojangs will involve a padded hogu, headgear, instep protectors, and maybe forearm/elbow guards.

But if you look around, you will find TKD schools that also have a strong SD element.  They just are not very prevelant.  

Daniel


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## yorkshirelad

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That isn't exactly what he said.  He was describing the sport/competition aspect of the art.  This is similar to what is seen in taekwondo: a kicking game with high kicks to the head that looks nothing like the pumse or breaking techniques (the three things you'll see at a tournament).  Striking your opponent in the throat with an arch hand would be an example of using practical TKD.  So would a low side kick to the knee.  But those would disrupt the flow of the tourney.
> 
> Also like TKD, SD is taught more seldomly than the WTF sporting style.  Doesn't mean that there isn't a practical element in taekwondo, but sparring at most dojangs will involve a padded hogu, headgear, instep protectors, and maybe forearm/elbow guards.
> 
> But if you look around, you will find TKD schools that also have a strong SD element.  They just are not very prevelant.
> 
> Daniel


 Exactly, if I look around I will find TKD schools that also have a strong SD element. I will and I have and these arts are easy to find on Youtube or other source. All i am sayin is....ok.....i'm going to say this one more time......Are you ready? SHOW ME? SHOW ME? If you are intent on convincing the world about the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, then show me?


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## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It was mentioned.  But people are still stuck on handstands and cartwheels.
> 
> Daniel




that is because the OP is still insisting they work for self defense, which is retarded. Anyone that has ever been in a real fight knows this....

FC is claiming that there is a combat side to this art, Josh said the same, myself, arch, and York have asked, dozens of times to see some of the self defense parts of this art.

no one has shown us ANYTHING

I believe:

1)there is someone, somewhere that teaches this system and concentrates on combat. It prob looks like regular generic karate in that situation.

2)the OP's insistance that gymnastics are usefull for self defense is making me question his ability to pass a drug screening.

3)asking to see some of this arts combat moves is a fair request

4) hand stands and cartwheeel are NOT a good idea in self defense.

5) MMA isnt self defense, niether is tourny fighting.


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## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> I don't think so Fella! You just did a full 180 and conceded that the combat version of Capoeira is the dance we've all been talking about here. Now, according to you we are not astute enough to pull the combat techniques out of it. apparently Mr. Parker was working on a book, just before he died titled &quot;Everyday gestures that can save your life&quot;. My wife is a gymnast. Would I tell her that a handstand kick will be beneficial against an attempted rape? No! Why? Because it's not! And no amount of insulting posts from you will make it so! By the way, the embarassement comes from people making extraordinary claims about the effectiveness of dangerous handstands in combat


 
the record speaks for itself.


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## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That isn't exactly what he said. He was describing the sport/competition aspect of the art. This is similar to what is seen in taekwondo: a kicking game with high kicks to the head that looks nothing like the pumse or breaking techniques (the three things you'll see at a tournament). Striking your opponent in the throat with an arch hand would be an example of using practical TKD. So would a low side kick to the knee. But those would disrupt the flow of the tourney.
> 
> Also like TKD, SD is taught more seldomly than the WTF sporting style. Doesn't mean that there isn't a practical element in taekwondo, but sparring at most dojangs will involve a padded hogu, headgear, instep protectors, and maybe forearm/elbow guards.
> 
> But if you look around, you will find TKD schools that also have a strong SD element. They just are not very prevelant.
> 
> Daniel


 
Here is somebody who does not lack the capacity.


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## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> Exactly, if I look around I will find TKD schools that also have a strong SD element. I will and I have and these arts are easy to find on Youtube or other source. All i am sayin is....ok.....i'm going to say this one more time......Are you ready? SHOW ME? SHOW ME? If you are intent on convincing the world about the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, then show me?


 

I'm still waiting for some video proof from your own self. Without some video, you've got no credibility.  You are just a hack off the street.


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## Twin Fist

dude, come on


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## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> I'm still waiting for some video proof from your own self. Without some video, you've got no credibility. You are just a hack off the street.


I'm not trying to prove anything! You obviously are! If you weren't, right at the beginning of this thread you would've said something like, "I'm not really bothered, if you believe or not, I think it's effective and that's all that counts". You didn't do that though, you began by explaining your position and when that explanation didn't hold water, you resorted to insults. This would suggest that you are frustrated and angry because we didn't take your view at face value. Then to buy in to this fantasy that this cartwheel, triple lindy, handstand kick is a viable combatives options, makes you look even less credible.


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## Flying Crane

yorkshirelad said:


> I'm not trying to prove anything! You obviously are! If you weren't, right at the beginning of this thread you would've said something like, "I'm not really bothered, if you believe or not, I think it's effective and that's all that counts". You didn't do that though, you began by explaining your position and when that explanation didn't hold water, you resorted to insults. This would suggest that you are frustrated and angry because we didn't take your view at face value. Then to buy in to this fantasy that this cartwheel, triple lindy, handstand kick is a viable combatives options, makes you look even less credible.


 
you made the rules.  The rules seem to require video, before anything can be accepted.

video, please.


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## Flying Crane

We don't have to keep travelling down this road of your self-destruction.  I've offered you a way out at least a couple of times.

But if you want to, we can keep doing this until the admininstration locks and closes the thread.  It's up to you.


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## yorkshirelad

Flying Crane said:


> We don't have to keep travelling down this road of your self-destruction. I've offered you a way out at least a couple of times.
> 
> But if you want to, we can keep doing this until the admininstration locks and closes the thread. It's up to you.


 
Let's keep going! I want the world to see how bonkers you truly are! Now, show me the Combat Capoeira!


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## yorkshirelad

yorkshirelad said:


> You don't have to. I'm not trying to convince you of what I am or what I was,. You can take what I say or leave it. But for the whole of this thread YOU HAVE been trying to convince me that Capoeira is a valid self preservation art and you have failed to present anything that I can see. If i was to ask an Aikido of Hapkido practitioner to show me something applicable to self preservation, they will not show me Ueshiba performing ninin-dori, they will most likely present me with the Kidotai course, Robert Koga or some of John Pellegrini's DVD material. Atacx showed me a handstand kick. Any video I see of Capoeira on Youtube I just get gymnastics. You obviously really want us to believe in the combat effectiveness of Capoeira, so please SHOW US, thatn is all I'm asking!


 
See the above post FC. I'm going to continue to play the same record! You have no visual representation of capoeira as a combative art. I can't find it anywhere I look. But then again, I can't find any representations of combat in Ballet. Strange that isn't it?


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## Flying Crane

Flying Crane said:


> why do you believe that everything must exist on video, or it doesn't exist at all?


 
In the spirit of true discussion, I'm still hoping for an answer to this question.


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## MJS

Admin Note

This thread has pretty much run its course.

Thread Closed!


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