# Video clip of tai chi ‘streetfight’



## zzj (Jun 11, 2018)

Background (based on what I read in the comments):

The person who posted the video said that the tai chi user was an old man from his neighborhood who was known as a tai chi practitioner.

The incident involved the younger man’s scooter almost knocking into the old man, and instead of apologizing, he called the old man the equivalent of ‘stupid f*cker’, which led to the subsequent *** whooping.

This happened in Vietnam apparently.


----------



## CrazedChris (Jun 11, 2018)

Hope he learned his lesson.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 12, 2018)

1st thing that came to my mind was stance training. lol worst root ever


----------



## Zeny (Jun 12, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> 1st thing that came to my mind was stance training. lol worst root ever


How does stance training help root?


----------



## mograph (Jun 12, 2018)

Zeny said:


> How does stance training help root?


In my experience, if you learn to sink while doing it, it will teach you what sinking feels like when static.
Then you gradually apply more movement as you test your root and recall those static sinking sensations and apply them to the new context of movement. Occasionally, you go back to static rooting to recall the sensations.

But you have to actually do it (with a good teacher) to learn these sensations. They're subtle and incremental, and can't be learned in a video or a few sentences on the internet.


----------



## zzj (Jun 12, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> 1st thing that came to my mind was stance training. lol worst root ever



The younger man doesn’t seem to have any martial arts background at all, it’s not surprising that he has no root at all, just attempts at flailing.


----------



## Zeny (Jun 12, 2018)

mograph said:


> In my experience, if you learn to sink while doing it, it will teach you what sinking feels like when static.
> Then you gradually apply more movement as you test your root and recall those static sinking sensations and apply them to the new context of movement. Occasionally, you go back to static rooting to recall the sensations.
> 
> But you have to actually do it (with a good teacher) to learn these sensations. They're subtle and incremental, and can't be learned in a video or a few sentences on the internet.


Is it possible to practise this sinking feeling by merely standing upright or walking? What advantages do stance training have over standing or walking in this context?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 12, 2018)

Zeny said:


> How does stance training help root?


Stance training, when done properly will help you develop more stable footing.  It will keep you from falling everywhere.  Stance training should consist of static stances and transitional stances.  It shold be trained solo and we a partner who is trying to knock you over.  One should pay attention to the weight distribution, balance, in the feet and in the legs.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 12, 2018)

Zeny said:


> How does stance training help root?


People often just stand without paying attention to all that is going on when doing stance training.

You would be wasting time if all you are doing is just standing without paying attention to what's happening to your body.  There is always movement even when standing still.


----------



## Zeny (Jun 12, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Stance training, when done properly will help you develop more stable footing.  It will keep you from falling everywhere.  Stance training should consist of static stances and transitional stances.  It shold be trained solo and we a partner who is trying to knock you over.  One should pay attention to the weight distribution, balance, in the feet and in the legs.


Can you give an example of static stance and transitional stance?


----------



## mograph (Jun 12, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> There is always movement even when standing still.


Yep. If we look deeply enough into our muscles, tendons and so on, we will find this movement. It can be very tiny. But this refined sense of internal (physical) perception is a benefit of stance training, yes?


----------



## mograph (Jun 12, 2018)

Zeny said:


> Is it possible to practise this sinking feeling by merely standing upright or walking?


 No, not if you haven't done serious standing, long enough to get sore muscles. If you don't get sore muscles, you don't try to discover new ways of sensing and aligning your structure, because you have no reason to do so.


Zeny said:


> What advantages do stance training have over standing or walking in this context?


If you do stance training, you have a chance to develop a root, which you would then attempt to _apply_ when standing or walking.
You are training your body and mind to develop new habits and learn new paradigms. To do this, you need to ingrain new habits until you make breakthroughs, then you need to repeat.

I studied psychology, so I'm not just parroting old-school masters.


----------



## Zeny (Jun 12, 2018)

What happens after I could redistribute my weight equally throughout my body, and sink that weight while static and moving? What else can I do to improve my root?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 12, 2018)

Zeny said:


> What happens after I could redistribute my weight equally throughout my body, and sink that weight while static and moving?


In a martial arts sense, you can then use it to attack and defend (long story of exactly how).   In terms of everyday life, you're footing will be more secure and you'll be able to recover better when you stumble.   If you play an active sport that has a lot of footwork then it will help you with that as well.  

It's same with sinking weight.  I've used in both martial arts and in every day life.  Just today I was pushing a heavy cart so I sunk my weight, and utilized some of my kung fu breathing concepts to help get the cart rolling.  Did I have to? nope.  But it made it easier for me when I did.   In martial arts, I can sink enough of my weight into my backfist that it will either make your knees give or cause you bend awkward from the sinking of my weight.  In fight applications I can use that same backfist and sinking to break a person's collar bone  (clavical).  Or I can sink the backfist into someone's face and break facial bone.  All of this would be impossible to do with out me knowing how to sink my weight.

When you get really good with sinking your weight, you will become difficult to move.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 12, 2018)

Zeny said:


> What happens after I could redistribute my weight equally throughout my body, and sink that weight while static and moving? What else can I do to improve my root?


Sorry to others who keep having to watch this video lol.  Example's of sinking weight in martial arts

The kick at 0:15  you can see me sink my weight to prevent my opponent from lifting it.  You can literally see how the leg pulls him down. :028  I sink my wight again,  0:34 my opponent sinks his weight which actually caused me to injure my back.  The last video I sink my weight again and take my opponent's root.  Take note of how much my feet don't move in comparison to all of the action that was going on.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

zzj said:


> Background (based on what I read in the comments):
> 
> The person who posted the video said that the tai chi user was an old man from his neighborhood who was known as a tai chi practitioner.
> 
> ...


How old is the old man?, He mightily be 45 in which case it's less impressive than if he was 85


----------



## ChenAn (Jun 12, 2018)

I like soccer like kick  Call whatever you want but  45 is not an old man,  and the fight on the video is not taiji 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zzj (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> How old is the old man?, He mightily be 45 in which case it's less impressive than if he was 85


 
In the comments it was said that he fought in the Vietnam war, which would place him in his 60’s at the minimum.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

zzj said:


> In the comments it was said that he fought in the Vietnam war, which would place him in his 60’s at the minimum.


They had a lot of child soldiers in that war,


----------



## zzj (Jun 12, 2018)

ChenAn said:


> I like soccer like kick  Call whatever you want but  45 is not an old man,  and the fight on the video is not taiji
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I would have to disagree with you there.

If the person who posted the video is to be believed, the old man IS a Taiji practitioner.

In the clip i can see ‘falling into emptiness’, deflection/redirection and even an effortless push that sent the man flying back. The soccer kick on the other hand was just the cherry on top, that has nothing to do with Taiji training.

Unless you can show me a better example of how a person with Taiji training would react in a real world altercation, I would stand by this video’s claim that it shows some real Taiji principles in action.


----------



## ChenAn (Jun 12, 2018)

zzj said:


> I would have to disagree with you there.
> 
> If the person who posted the video is to be believed, the old man IS a Taiji practitioner.
> 
> ...



The video is very bad quality. It's hard to say really the age of the man. Speculation is open for different interpretations. "Falling in emptiness"  is more due to "thugs" inability to keep balance while throwing a punch. Frankly his ability to keep balance in general in question.
Furthermore,
a) "the old man" disengages after opponent falls down, pauses, let his opponent get up, and continue following him again. 
b) as mentioned before "the thug" ability to stand on own legs raises concerns on the first place.
c) "the thug friend  just sits and watches as her accomplice is beaten up. Good friend a guess? Could have come behind "the old man" and settle the score.

Folks you don't need tai chi  to beat up a poor kid aka "the thug". In fact, "the old man" really could have stopped the altercation in the very beginning.

zzj I'm not collecting videos of taiji practitioner caught on camera. I really have no idea how different taiji practitioners would react in real world. I also have no desire to convince anyone who has  own opinion about this event - I simply expressed my own. Most people are clueless what taiji fight could possibly look like on the first place. This is because 99% of modern taiji practitioners do not fight unless of course they are (or was)  cross-trained (like myself for example).  Perhaps few lines may retain authentic combative training, but majority of others relies on different methods to compliment lack of fighting ability.

 Remember that many legit taiji masters of recent past have never fought themselves on the first place, and simply represent  a line of family transmission. Their  combative technique proficiency usually demonstrated within their own student/practitioner circle and never beyond. Basically knowledge is there but practical usage is long gone. And it understandable who would fight when Mr Sam Colt made people equal long time ago? 

Finally we can discuss a very long time subject of taiji fight  and never come up to the agreement  For example in Chen family jin "an" aka push is transmitted as "push downward". I wonder why?  99.9% taiji video demonstration one practitioner pushing another away. Will it ever stop aggressive opponent? Even this video shows that "leading to emptiness"  didn't really stoped "the thug", not really until "soccer kick" turn him off ..So why people train it? What are they hope for? Questions, questions.....


----------



## zzj (Jun 13, 2018)

It is true that the video is pretty bad quality. I am staisfied


ChenAn said:


> The video is very bad quality. It's hard to say really the age of the man. Speculation is open for different interpretations. "Falling in emptiness"  is more due to "thugs" inability to keep balance while throwing a punch. Frankly his ability to keep balance in general in question.
> Furthermore,
> a) "the old man" disengages after opponent falls down, pauses, let his opponent get up, and continue following him again.
> b) as mentioned before "the thug" ability to stand on own legs raises concerns on the first place.
> ...



It is true that the video quality is bad, very bad, however, I am satisfied with my own interpretation of what happened.

1) I am assuming that it is true the 'old man' is a taiji practitioner, which means what we have witnessed is at the least, a taiji practitioner in some sort of a fight.

2) The 'thug' is obviously inept as a fighter, however, to repeatedly fall in the manner he did, he must have been comically clumsy to the point that he might trip over his own feet everyday. From the few videos of streetfights I have seen so far, I have never seen anyone so badly coordinated that he would tumble over repeatedly like the 'thug' here.

3) Another observation from watching clips of streetfights, the reaction of this 'old man' is unlike most others as in he does not flail around or try to engage with targeted punches like a striker/boxer; his footwork also controlled and coordinated. Although not neatly demonstrated, it would seem he prefers to receive, neutralize and redirect.

4) Several instances in the video suggests that the 'old man' was dispalying some aspect of taiji prowess, such as the wave like manner the push affect 'the thug' and caused him to be thrown back onto the ground; this point is the most subjective. (note: I do not believe the taiji, if any' shown here is Chen style. The push is much more consistent with Yang, and so are the more subtle redirections etc. Also, this is not so much a fight as an ill-tempered beat down by the 'old man', so he was probably not concerned about ending it)

I thought of going into a detailed analysis/speculation of what happened in the video but I won't, because I really have no desire to prove anything. As you have stated, no one really knows how taiji looks like in a real fight, but I think there are is enough circumstantial evidence in this clip to suggest this may be one such case. 

I think we can agree to disagree here and leave others to decide for themselves what they have seen.


----------



## Zeny (Jun 13, 2018)

ChenAn, what is your cross training history?


----------



## ChenAn (Jun 13, 2018)

Zeny said:


> ChenAn, what is your cross training history?


 
Mostly external martial arts sambo, karate, long hu quan. Even though I was exposed to taji in my early years  I have never seriously practiced it until in my 30th..


----------

