# Student seperation or an 'old boy club'



## dragonswordkata (Feb 10, 2007)

I'd like to hear how other instructors deal when, before/after class, typicaly the higher belts hang around each other talking and the lower belt do the same. I know that the different folks are not excluding each other intetionaly since I speak with everyone and they all seem happy.

I know that this is bound to happen sometimes, but I want to make sure everyone know there is no class stratification, we are all equal even if at different points along the training path. I also don't want new folks comming in feeling they are different from the higher belts and feeling segrigated.


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## Drac (Feb 10, 2007)

dragonswordkata said:


> I know that this is bound to happen sometimes, but I want to make sure everyone know there is no class stratification, we are all equal even if at different points along the training path. I also don't want new folks comming in feeling they are different from the higher belts and feeling segrigated.


 
Great comment and 100% true..


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## bydand (Feb 10, 2007)

In this matter the little Dojo I train at is very well blessed.  There is no seperation either before or after class.  In fact after the adult classes everybody goes out to a neighborhood bag/grill where we can have a bite to eat  and have a drink together.  It doesn't matter if you have been there 2 weeks or from the day the doors opened, everybody that can go does.  It isn't always the same bunch due to schedules or other demands, but there is always a group that goes.  Even if the lower ranks don't stay during the later classes, it is the saying as they go out the door "Par 9".  (the name of the place is the "Par and Grill" due to the fact the have an indoor golf screen)  

I think the size of the place may play a part in the seperation as well.  Larger places you have more people and people tend to congregate with those they have known longest or with those they have a common denominator such as ranking.  Where we are small it takes that out of the equation.


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## TKDmel (Feb 10, 2007)

bydand said:


> In this matter the little Dojo I train at is very well blessed. There is no seperation either before or after class. In fact after the adult classes everybody goes out to a neighborhood bag/grill where we can have a bite to eat and have a drink together. It doesn't matter if you have been there 2 weeks or from the day the doors opened, everybody that can go does. It isn't always the same bunch due to schedules or other demands, but there is always a group that goes. Even if the lower ranks don't stay during the later classes, it is the saying as they go out the door "Par 9". (the name of the place is the "Par and Grill" due to the fact the have an indoor golf screen)
> 
> I think the size of the place may play a part in the seperation as well. Larger places you have more people and people tend to congregate with those they have known longest or with those they have a common denominator such as ranking. Where we are small it takes that out of the equation.


 
Years ago, my old school had the same thing. Anyone was made to feel welcome, regardless of rank, whether it was at the bar after class, or during class.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 11, 2007)

I know that this is bound to happen sometimes, but I want to make sure everyone know there is no class stratification, we are all equal even if at different points along the training path. I also don't want new folks comming in feeling they are different from the higher belts and feeling segrigated.[/quote]

What we are running into here is two basic problems. They are easy to overcome, however. The first is that when we use any form of grading system we create a stratified environment, which can be both helpful and harmful (my more senior students are encouraged to assist those of lower grades). The second is a little more complex. I equate it to the age societies of the American Plains Indian tribes. People who started training together have a closer affinity because of shared experiences.

At the end of our classes we gather together in a circle to stretch and warm down. During this time people chat together around and across the circle. I think this breaks down any barriers are lets people be more at ease with each other.


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 22, 2007)

My group is about 25-30 people at the moment - I require all higher ranks to work with the lower ranks. This has several benefits - everyone learns faster and the "belt stratification" symptoms are reduced because you get to work with each other so often. In addition, we have no titles that are used when addressing each other beyond our first names. You'll see the fancy titles on a promotion certificate, but that's it.


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## LawDog (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve Z.
I agree with you in many ways and run my classes much in the same way as you do.
My classes are not seperated by rank or gender, only by age, (tots, children,teens 7 adults).
When I first started this type of class training, (70's), it had nothing to do with any "in house" issues. It was done to generate a faster learning curve for the beginners and intermediate ranks. This also helped the advanced students, they could see where they have come from to where they are now. This is important so that they can understand that everything that we do is for a reason.
The black belts are required to assist the colored belts at all times during class. During our daily sparring sessions, when sparring with the colored belts, our black belts are required to use what we call "training mode". Our black belts are required work with the colored belts and not just beat up on them.
In most sports the players still call their trainer's, Coach. The one thing that I do insist on is that a student call an instructor by their teaching title.
The end result is that we have a family type school, adults and kids get along real well and even socialize together during non school hours.  It is a real pleasure for me to instruct at at school where everyone is friendly. It is like being in another world where you don't have to watch your back. If it wasn't for this I would have probably stopped teaching decades ago.
I hope that you enjoy going to your school as much as I do.


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## Ping898 (Feb 22, 2007)

I think there is one thing you sort of miss in your comments is assuming the higher belts are excluding the lower belts.  Thinking about my training, the people around my belt level were the ones I tended to socialize with outside of class, at least right after class, because they were the ones around as I went up through the ranks with and the ones who knew me best and also they were the one's who were usually taught the material I was just taught.  I would always work with lower belt on the mat before, during or after class, but strictly from a socialization POV, the people I hung around with after class, tended to be those who were around the belt level I was....


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## Marvin (Feb 25, 2007)

The best way I have found, is that YOU the instructor make sure you hang out and talk to the new folks. Remember, everyone looks at you for how to behave in your club. The higher belts will follow


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 25, 2007)

Marvin said:


> The best way I have found, is that YOU the instructor make sure you hang out and talk to the new folks. Remember, everyone looks at you for how to behave in your club. The higher belts will follow


 
Marvin that is a great point and one that can really make a differance!


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## IcemanSK (Mar 21, 2007)

Marvin's point is well taken. An instructor's job is to ensure that the new students are included. That's the way they become old students!


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## Big Don (Sep 3, 2007)

At the school I attend, there is a core group that is about 15 to 20 people, a quarter of the school, that is really more like a family than anything else. We have a really good group of people. We don't exclude anyone, it is just, some people are not as sociable... In February of this year we took a weekend and went to Frank Trejo's home in southern CA (we're outside of Fresno) 13 people, from purple belts to Fifth Black, and not one argument, well, one... Some people argue over who gets to pay for meals... I can't take 13 members of my family for a weekend without having a dozen small problems...
There are five of us that have tested together from Orange to Green, so far, and we are very tight.


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## Hand Sword (Sep 3, 2007)

dragonswordkata said:


> I'd like to hear how other instructors deal when, before/after class, typicaly the higher belts hang around each other talking and the lower belt do the same. I know that the different folks are not excluding each other intetionaly since I speak with everyone and they all seem happy.
> 
> I know that this is bound to happen sometimes, but I want to make sure everyone know there is no class stratification, we are all equal even if at different points along the training path. I also don't want new folks comming in feeling they are different from the higher belts and feeling segrigated.


 
During the personal time periods before and after class all groups do it. The newer students hang off to the side, the older students hang off to the side, some hang alone, women with other women, etc.. I don't see a problem with that. It goes on everywhere in life school, work, etc.. As long as all students are friendly and work together well, and not excluding one, when there is a question, I say so be it. You can't make people socialize during their free, personal time. I've never seen any group ignore others completely in class.


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## Lynne (Sep 6, 2007)

I think it's natural for the black belts to hang with one another as it is the colored belts.  I don't believe the groups are cliques/exclusive but friends.  I think when we work with another, strive together, we become closer.  Overall, our school has a team spirit.

As a beginner, I have been encouraged to approach any higher belt for help.  I've started doing that and have found any higher belt more than willing to help me - they get so excited!  In our school, any colored belt should be able to approach a higher belt for help.  I think colored belts are often intimidated by black belts though; even white belts are intimated by orange and yellow belts sometimes.

I try to make a point of speaking to people trying out or if they're a new white belt.  I at least say, "Hello, how are you?" before class and during class I ask them how they're doing if there's a chance.  Afterward, I compliment with a, "Good job.  You really worked hard," etc.

It wouldn't hurt to tell the black belts to introduce themselves to the new students and that they're available if the new student has any questions (the latter part depends on your teaching philosophy - whether you encourage black belts to help students with their wrist grips, etc. off the floor).

I wouldn't worry about outside socializing though.


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