# On dealing with KenpoPhobes



## Sami Ibrahim

Not everyone who is/was involved with or associated with Kenpo is really destined for success in Kenpo. I mean these KenpoPhobes do not have any faith in Kenpo, they are future Kenpo failures in the making, learning only the surface motion with only the most shallow understanding of the art. These are the future critics of Kenpo, the ones who will quit sooner or later because they can't seem to make any real progress because they have already convinced themselves that all Kenpo is impractical, watered down or whatever. These are the ones who always paint with a wide brush when discussing their perceived problems with the art, never taking responsibility for their own short comings.

If you are new to the art of Kenpo, please take the time to check the source of information when it comes to Kenpo, if the person offering you insight is someone who "used to study" Kenpo but quit and now has a head full of opinions about the art, keep in mind this is a KenpoPhobe, someone whose entire journey in the art of Kenpo was as a destined failure, not to be confused with Kenpo practitioners who cross reference or cross train. How much worst if the person in question has spent more than half a life time failing in Kenpo before quitting. This art is not for everyone and is definitely not for KenpoPhobes.

Now if you're like me, you take sadistic pleasure in taking any statement made by a KenpoPhobe and cut away the generalization, clarifying their failure to be something unique to them. For example, this technique sucks becomes I am sorry to hear that your still having problems understanding that excellent technique, I would recommend a qualified instructor for you but I see that you quit Kenpo years ago lol. Now, if you do this they feel like it is a personal attack and so you can expect personal attacks back ranging from questioning your lineage to questioning your sanity, one thing you can rest assured they won't ever do is actually discuss the original topic in any further detail since they have no idea that the topic goes much deeper than their shallow understanding.

Please tread with care around the manure spewing from these faithless dogs who are failures in Kenpo and want to convince us that the problem is with the art (really they are subconsciously trying to convince themselves that they are not failures). Take your insight from those who are successful with the art not those who are critics of the art, from the critics learn to identify how they came to reach dismal failure and avoid their mistakes.


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## Touch Of Death

I always say, Kenpo isn't the problem, your Kenpo is the problem.


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## Tames D

Sami Ibrahim said:


> For example, this technique sucks becomes I am sorry to hear that your still having problems understanding that excellent technique, I would recommend a qualified instructor


I'm not a Kenpo guy, but I'm curious... are you saying that if a Kenpo practitioner doesn't like *all* the techniques in the system, and I understand that there are ALOT of techniques in EPAK , that they are a KenpoPhobe, and cannot make the technique work for them? Do you personally like *all* the techniques? Do you find *all* the EPAK techniques to be excellent? And if not, does that make you a KenpoPhobe?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tames D said:


> I'm not a Kenpo guy, but I'm curious... are you saying that if a Kenpo practitioner doesn't like *all* the techniques in the system, and I understand that there are ALOT of techniques in EPAK , that they are a KenpoPhobe, and cannot make the technique work for them? Do you personally like *all* the techniques? Do you find *all* the EPAK techniques to be excellent? And if not, does that make you a KenpoPhobe?


I can't answer for samu, but most of the epak techniques follow a set of guidelines. It's fine if you don't like techniques, but understand the reasoning behind them. It's a different thing if you try the technique, don't bother understanding why it's useful, and claiming the kenpo sucks because the techniques you never explored fully suck, which j think are the 'kenpophobes'


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

As a side note, I don't really care about the kenpophobes, or any style-phobes for that matter. Why does it matter if someone else dislikes a style, as long as I find it useful?


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## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Not everyone who is/was involved with or associated with Kenpo is really destined for success in Kenpo. I mean these KenpoPhobes do not have any faith in Kenpo, they are future Kenpo failures in the making, learning only the surface motion with only the most shallow understanding of the art. These are the future critics of Kenpo, the ones who will quit sooner or later because they can't seem to make any real progress because they have already convinced themselves that all Kenpo is impractical, watered down or whatever. These are the ones who always paint with a wide brush when discussing their perceived problems with the art, never taking responsibility for their own short comings.
> 
> If you are new to the art of Kenpo, please take the time to check the source of information when it comes to Kenpo, if the person offering you insight is someone who "used to study" Kenpo but quit and now has a head full of opinions about the art, keep in mind this is a KenpoPhobe, someone whose entire journey in the art of Kenpo was as a destined failure, not to be confused with Kenpo practitioners who cross reference or cross train. How much worst if the person in question has spent more than half a life time failing in Kenpo before quitting. This art is not for everyone and is definitely not for KenpoPhobes.
> 
> Now if you're like me, you take sadistic pleasure in taking any statement made by a KenpoPhobe and cut away the generalization, clarifying their failure to be something unique to them. For example, this technique sucks becomes I am sorry to hear that your still having problems understanding that excellent technique, I would recommend a qualified instructor for you but I see that you quit Kenpo years ago lol. Now, if you do this they feel like it is a personal attack and so you can expect personal attacks back ranging from questioning your lineage to questioning your sanity, one thing you can rest assured they won't ever do is actually discuss the original topic in any further detail since they have no idea that the topic goes much deeper than their shallow understanding.
> 
> Please tread with care around the manure spewing from these faithless dogs who are failures in Kenpo and want to convince us that the problem is with the art (really they are subconsciously trying to convince themselves that they are not failures). Take your insight from those who are successful with the art not those who are critics of the art, from the critics learn to identify how they came to reach dismal failure and avoid their mistakes.


Umm sorry but you seem to be one of those who believes kenpo is the be all and end all of martial arts...it's not its got its weaknesses and some of the techniques simply do not work for people no matter who trained them. Lee wedlake hates the techique circling windmills and he hates the set 2s and he was trained by ed Parker but since he doesn't like a techique are you saying he didn't get trained properly then? Get a grip your post makes you extremely arrogant. Not all of kenpo is ineffective but some of it is. Some of it physically doesn't work for some people and if you go around saying that everything works and it's all perfect then you're the one failing your students telling them that. 

You've obviously got yourself all upset about your silly assassination comment. Who are you to tell people they're failures at it and by the way that word kenpo phobes...you do realise that means they're scared of kenpo...if someone hates kenpo that's their choice I don't care makes no difference to me if they love it or hate it it's non of my business you need to stop getting so upset


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## Tames D

I've been told by two high ranking, highly respected Kenpo Masters that they dislike certain techs, and admit that all the techs are not 'logical" for self defense. These men were trained by Ed Parker Sr.  KenpoPhobes?


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## Headhunter

Tames D said:


> I've been told by two high ranking highly respected Kenpo Masters that they dislike certain techs and admit that all the techs are not 'logical" for self defense. These men were trained by Ed Parker Sr. KenpoPhobes?


Agreed anyone who says they love every single technique are either liars or have a cult like worship of the art. Sure all techniques can give you principles and ideas to work with but as an actual base techique there are some that simply do work as the base as they're written and that's fine because its about taking bits of each one and using them as tools but you simply can't say they all work. There are 154 kenpo techniques and 10 forms no one in their right mind can like every single one of them


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## KenpoBoxer

Kenpos a great art but it doesn't all work plain and simple call me a failure or whatever you want but it doesn't and I've been training for 10 years and never met a single person who likes every technique including 7th and 8th dans


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## Gerry Seymour

Saying someone who doesn't like Kempo after trying it was "a destined failure" is ludicrous. Their opinion is based on their experience. No art is right for everyone, and no art is perfect, even for its ideal audience.


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## Flying Crane

This thread is aimed at me.


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## Tony Dismukes

Sami Ibrahim said:


> These are the future critics of Kenpo, the ones who will quit sooner or later because they can't seem to make any real progress because they have already convinced themselves that all Kenpo is impractical, watered down or whatever.





Sami Ibrahim said:


> How much worst if the person in question has spent more than half a life time failing in Kenpo before quitting.


Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly ...

There are people who spend half a life time training in Kenpo, but they never make any progress because they had already decided from the beginning that Kenpo doesn't work? Nevertheless, they devote years and years to practice of the art because ... they hate it so much they want to prove it doesn't work, I guess?

I'm sure that makes all kinds of sense. People, without coercion or social pressure, typically spend years devoting their free time, money, and hard work to activities that they think are worthless from the outset, right? Doesn't everybody do that?

I don't care one way or another about Kenpo, but I think your understanding of human nature might need a little work.


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## Tez3

Flying Crane said:


> This thread is aimed at me.



Think it's more of an own goal though lol. At any rate it missed you by miles!


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Think it's more of an own goal though lol. At any rate it missed you by miles!


Hey, no more football metaphors from you, hooligan.


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Think it's more of an own goal though lol. At any rate it missed you by miles!


He missed it by that much.


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## Touch Of Death

Did you guys know, all the kenpo techs suck, if nobody teaches you how to make them work.


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## Headhunter

Funny how the op has now completely disappeared after posting this and not replied to anyone's comment


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## Touch Of Death

Headhunter said:


> Funny how the op has now completely disappeared after posting this and not replied to anyone's comment


Some of us have lives, and don't hover over our computers, every moment.


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## hoshin1600

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Not everyone who is/was involved with or associated with Kenpo is really destined for success in Kenpo. I mean these KenpoPhobes do not have any faith in Kenpo, they are future Kenpo failures in the making, learning only the surface motion with only the most shallow understanding of the art. These are the future critics of Kenpo, the ones who will quit sooner or later because they can't seem to make any real progress because they have already convinced themselves that all Kenpo is impractical, watered down or whatever. These are the ones who always paint with a wide brush when discussing their perceived problems with the art, never taking responsibility for their own short comings.
> 
> If you are new to the art of Kenpo, please take the time to check the source of information when it comes to Kenpo, if the person offering you insight is someone who "used to study" Kenpo but quit and now has a head full of opinions about the art, keep in mind this is a KenpoPhobe, someone whose entire journey in the art of Kenpo was as a destined failure, not to be confused with Kenpo practitioners who cross reference or cross train. How much worst if the person in question has spent more than half a life time failing in Kenpo before quitting. This art is not for everyone and is definitely not for KenpoPhobes.
> 
> Now if you're like me, you take sadistic pleasure in taking any statement made by a KenpoPhobe and cut away the generalization, clarifying their failure to be something unique to them. For example, this technique sucks becomes I am sorry to hear that your still having problems understanding that excellent technique, I would recommend a qualified instructor for you but I see that you quit Kenpo years ago lol. Now, if you do this they feel like it is a personal attack and so you can expect personal attacks back ranging from questioning your lineage to questioning your sanity, one thing you can rest assured they won't ever do is actually discuss the original topic in any further detail since they have no idea that the topic goes much deeper than their shallow understanding.
> 
> Please tread with care around the manure spewing from these faithless dogs who are failures in Kenpo and want to convince us that the problem is with the art (really they are subconsciously trying to convince themselves that they are not failures). Take your insight from those who are successful with the art not those who are critics of the art, from the critics learn to identify how they came to reach dismal failure and avoid their mistakes.




wait a minute i resemble that remark!!!!
may i ask how many years you, Sami have been studing kenpo?
i would be more than happy to debate you on this and yes sure we can.get into the discussion deeper, are you willing ?
...."one thing you can rest assured they won't ever do is actually discuss the original topic in any further detail since they have no idea that the topic goes much deeper than their shallow understanding".

i personally find kenpo is not for me.  there are some small aspects that i do like but as a complete system its not for me.  however we will have to define what era of kenpo we are going to debate.  the art has undergone some drastic changes over the years and from organization to organization.
your post while mildly entertaining shows an evident lack of understanding of other arts.  how many other arts have you trained in Sami?  are you guilty of the same phobia you describe because you are not a master of those other arts?


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## Tony Dismukes

Touch Of Death said:


> Some of us have lives, and don't hover over our computers, every moment.


What kind of life is that? Disconnected from your computer - can you really call it living? 

Honestly, that's probably one of the benefits I get from martial arts training - a period of time when I'm not concerned about anything going on online. At least until we get the technology for brain implants connected to the Internet. Then I'll probably be running software to analyze my performance while I'm sparring. I'll be like the Borg - you can only defeat me a given way one time and then I'll have added the necessary countermeasures to my database.


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## Touch Of Death

Tony Dismukes said:


> What kind of life is that? Disconnected from your computer - can you really call it living?
> 
> Honestly, that's probably one of the benefits I get from martial arts training - a period of time when I'm not concerned about anything going on online. At least until we get the technology for brain implants connected to the Internet. Then I'll probably be running software to analyze my performance while I'm sparring. I'll be like the Borg - you can only defeat me a given way one time and then I'll have added the necessary countermeasures to my database.


What is Off Line?...


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## Sami Ibrahim

Tames D said:


> I'm not a Kenpo guy, but I'm curious... are you saying that if a Kenpo practitioner doesn't like *all* the techniques in the system, and I understand that there are ALOT of techniques in EPAK , that they are a KenpoPhobe, and cannot make the technique work for them? Do you personally like *all* the techniques? Do you find *all* the EPAK techniques to be excellent? And if not, does that make you a KenpoPhobe?



No I am not saying that if a Kenpo practitioner doesn't like all the techniques in the system they are a KenpoPhobe. I do personally like all the techniques in the Kenpo I do but liking and not liking a technique is different from painting with a wide brush and blaming the art for my own failures and even that is different from pretending to be an expert in the art after having been a failure at it and quitting. The art is not for everyone, their are plenty of excellent martial arts out there, if you look hard enough you will find one that works for you I only take issue with the ones that haunt the Kenpo world with their long dead kenpo to play the I am an expert card all the while criticizing and putting down the art, their expertise being based on their failed attempts at the art.


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## Sami Ibrahim

kempodisciple said:


> As a side note, I don't really care about the kenpophobes, or any style-phobes for that matter. Why does it matter if someone else dislikes a style, as long as I find it useful?



It only matters in that people that are new to the Kenpo arts or those considering beginning their journey may get dissuaded by these kenpo failures or KenpoPhobes and even SOME practitioners who have been at the art for sometime have become a little confused by the constant criticisms of the art by people that are pretending to be experienced experts when in fact they are experienced failures a completely different animal.


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> Some of us have lives, and don't hover over our computers, every moment.


Well...an assassin has a busy schedule...


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## Touch Of Death

For the record, I agree with the OP. Somebody can have a bad experience with a mediocre teacher, and he will say what he thinks about the art. On Kenpotalk, we pretty much all agree that kenpo deserves it, because, YouTube is full of some very bad kenpo, performed by people with nosebleed rank. It is disgusting. However, the art is sound.


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## Buka

Touch Of Death said:


> Some of us have lives, and don't hover over our computers, every moment.



Well, ya, but that's only because I don't have an internet thingy on my phone as of yet. 
But, THEN, I'll probably be a phone hoverer. (Oh, God, save me)


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## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> Umm sorry but you seem to be one of those who believes kenpo is the be all and end all of martial arts...it's not its got its weaknesses and some of the techniques simply do not work for people no matter who trained them. Lee wedlake hates the techique circling windmills and he hates the set 2s and he was trained by ed Parker but since he doesn't like a techique are you saying he didn't get trained properly then? Get a grip your post makes you extremely arrogant. Not all of kenpo is ineffective but some of it is. Some of it physically doesn't work for some people and if you go around saying that everything works and it's all perfect then you're the one failing your students telling them that.
> 
> You've obviously got yourself all upset about your silly assassination comment. Who are you to tell people they're failures at it and by the way that word kenpo phobes...you do realise that means they're scared of kenpo...if someone hates kenpo that's their choice I don't care makes no difference to me if they love it or hate it it's non of my business you need to stop getting so upset



No I do not believe that Kenpo is the be all and end all of the martial arts, you would do well to stop assuming you know anything about what I believe or feel. 
Your Kenpo has its weaknesses and mine has its weaknesses but they are not the same because we do not train the same way. Maybe you should not drag Mr. Wedlake into this to try and make a point, Mr. Wedlake did not quit Kenpo, he does not haunt the Kenpo Forums criticizing Kenpo and painting with a wide brush, In fact he has done much to spread the art and his books on the art are excellent, I highly recommend them. 

Not all Kenpo is ineffective but some of IT is... no no some Kenpo practitioners are effective and some are not. Your correct some people can't physically do a technique a certain way, good thing with the help of a qualified instructor they can tailor it to work for them. If someone hates Kenpo that is their choice but if they want to run their mouth spewing BS about it, they are going to get it turned right around on them, that was the point of the post how to deal with the KenpoPhobes!

As for my sounding extremely arrogant, sure, take what I say and let it offend you to your core, to the very bottom of your heart but it really is not a personal attack, I don't even know who you are, its not like you use your real name, maybe you posted something in the past that fit the KenpoPhobe bill and now you think I am targeting you. I am not, I have a short memory these days when it comes to KenpoPhobe comments, after awhile they all blur together and sound the same:

"Boo Hoo Kenpo is not effective, too commercial, too complex, too simple, not inclusive, not specializing in X or Y or Z enough, lacking in this or that, the uniforms are ugly, the masters are fat, the practitioners cannot beat boxers, kickboxers, UFC fighters, the scripted ideal phase training sequence does not work against ninja in the parking lot, their are no codified basics, the bio-mechanical flux-capacitors are not traveling along the correct dimensional planes causing dis-associative nuclear fall-out from the IKKA and Ed Parker is a lousy fighter, kicker, ninja with a penchant for con-artistry." or just imagine the sound of finger nails on a chalk board.


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## JR 137

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Not everyone who is/was involved with or associated with Kenpo is really destined for success in Kenpo. I mean these KenpoPhobes do not have any faith in Kenpo, they are future Kenpo failures in the making, learning only the surface motion with only the most shallow understanding of the art. These are the future critics of Kenpo, the ones who will quit sooner or later because they can't seem to make any real progress because they have already convinced themselves that all Kenpo is impractical, watered down or whatever. These are the ones who always paint with a wide brush when discussing their perceived problems with the art, never taking responsibility for their own short comings.
> 
> If you are new to the art of Kenpo, please take the time to check the source of information when it comes to Kenpo, if the person offering you insight is someone who "used to study" Kenpo but quit and now has a head full of opinions about the art, keep in mind this is a KenpoPhobe, someone whose entire journey in the art of Kenpo was as a destined failure, not to be confused with Kenpo practitioners who cross reference or cross train. How much worst if the person in question has spent more than half a life time failing in Kenpo before quitting. This art is not for everyone and is definitely not for KenpoPhobes.
> 
> Now if you're like me, you take sadistic pleasure in taking any statement made by a KenpoPhobe and cut away the generalization, clarifying their failure to be something unique to them. For example, this technique sucks becomes I am sorry to hear that your still having problems understanding that excellent technique, I would recommend a qualified instructor for you but I see that you quit Kenpo years ago lol. Now, if you do this they feel like it is a personal attack and so you can expect personal attacks back ranging from questioning your lineage to questioning your sanity, one thing you can rest assured they won't ever do is actually discuss the original topic in any further detail since they have no idea that the topic goes much deeper than their shallow understanding.
> 
> Please tread with care around the manure spewing from these faithless dogs who are failures in Kenpo and want to convince us that the problem is with the art (really they are subconsciously trying to convince themselves that they are not failures). Take your insight from those who are successful with the art not those who are critics of the art, from the critics learn to identify how they came to reach dismal failure and avoid their mistakes.



Can't the same be said about any art?


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## JR 137

Sami Ibrahim said:


> No I do not believe that Kenpo is the be all and end all of the martial arts, you would do well to stop assuming you know anything about what I believe or feel.
> Your Kenpo has its weaknesses and mine has its weaknesses but they are not the same because we do not train the same way. Maybe you should not drag Mr. Wedlake into this to try and make a point, Mr. Wedlake did not quit Kenpo, he does not haunt the Kenpo Forums criticizing Kenpo and painting with a wide brush, In fact he has done much to spread the art and his books on the art are excellent, I highly recommend them.
> 
> Not all Kenpo is ineffective but some of IT is... no no some Kenpo practitioners are effective and some are not. Your correct some people can't physically do a technique a certain way, good thing with the help of a qualified instructor they can tailor it to work for them. If someone hates Kenpo that is their choice but if they want to run their mouth spewing BS about it, they are going to get it turned right around on them, that was the point of the post how to deal with the KenpoPhobes!
> 
> As for my sounding extremely arrogant, sure, take what I say and let it offend you to your core, to the very bottom of your heart but it really is not a personal attack, I don't even know who you are, its not like you use your real name, maybe you posted something in the past that fit the KenpoPhobe bill and now you think I am targeting you. I am not, I have a short memory these days when it comes to KenpoPhobe comments, after awhile they all blur together and sound the same:
> 
> "Boo Hoo Kenpo is not effective, too commercial, too complex, too simple, not inclusive, not specializing in X or Y or Z enough, lacking in this or that, the uniforms are ugly, the masters are fat, the practitioners cannot beat boxers, kickboxers, UFC fighters, the scripted ideal phase training sequence does not work against ninja in the parking lot, their are no codified basics, the bio-mechanical flux-capacitors are not traveling along the correct dimensional planes causing dis-associative nuclear fall-out from the IKKA and Ed Parker is a lousy fighter, kicker, ninja with a penchant for con-artistry." or just imagine the sound of finger nails on a chalk board.



And again, can't the same be said of any art?


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## Sami Ibrahim

gpseymour said:


> Saying someone who doesn't like Kempo after trying it was "a destined failure" is ludicrous. Their opinion is based on their experience. No art is right for everyone, and no art is perfect, even for its ideal audience.



No it is true and yes it is based on their experience which was the experience of failure but that is the thrust of my point, it is their personal opinion from their personal experience with the Kenpo training they went through so share your opinion about your experience and personal failure with your journey through the art so we can make sure not to follow in your footsteps but don't foolishly assume that the problem exists with everyone else. We don't all train the same, we don't all use the same scripted ideal phase sequences, we don't even do the forms the same, we don't all get the same lessons from a given technique.


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## Flying Crane

Sami, I believe that I am the target of your ire and that this stems from the other thread where we debated the assassisn-worthiness of some techniques found in Form 5.  

Am I correct in that assessment?

If you believe in your kenpo, all the power to you.  You don't need my, nor anybody else's approval.  I practice a system with a methodology that most people who first see it think it makes no sense.  And there have been plenty of derogatory postings about it.  I don't care, I don't need their approval, and I do understand the method so their opinion is meaningless to me.

But when things get posted here, there will be comments and discussion.  Some of it positive, some of it negative, some of it derogatory and some of it ridicule.  This is a discussion forum, so people will discuss and comment.  That is what this place is.  If you are not comfortable with that, then don't post here and don't read what others post.

The world is a much bigger place than Martialtalk.  What is posted here is entertainment for many of us, but means next to nothing outside of this website.


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## Sami Ibrahim

JR 137 said:


> And again, can't the same be said of any art?



Yes it can but I am saying it about Kenpo because I am addressing behavior haunting Kenpo discussions. If someone failed to learn Silat to an effective level and yet haunts the Silat forums telling everyone how Silat sucks in general it would apply to them I suppose they would be a SilatPhobe lol


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## Sami Ibrahim

Flying Crane said:


> Sami, I believe that I am the target of your ire and that this stems from the other thread where we debated the assassisn-worthiness of some techniques found in Form 5.
> 
> Am I correct in that assessment?
> 
> If you believe in your kenpo, all the power to you.  You don't need my, nor anybody else's approval.  I practice a system with a methodology that most people who first see it think it makes no sense.  And there have been plenty of derogatory postings about it.  I don't care, I don't need their approval, and I do understand the method so their opinion is meaningless to me.
> 
> But when things get posted here, there will be comments and discussion.  Some of it positive, some of it negative, some of it derogatory and some of it ridicule.  This is a discussion forum, so people will discuss and comment.  That is what this place is.  If you are not comfortable with that, then don't post here and don't read what others post.
> 
> The world is a much bigger place than Martialtalk.  What is posted here is entertainment for many of us, but means next to nothing outside of this website.



No I will continue to post, maybe I will post more often. You did study Kenpo at one point and you quit to study another art and you do haunt the Kenpo forums sharing your experience but you usually don't paint with a wide brush, I been meaning to post on this subject for awhile but I have been busy, it is not a personal attack on you. And to anyone else who is acting like this is directed at them, if the shoe don't fit, don't wear it, but if it does fit, stick it lol


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## Tony Dismukes

Sami Ibrahim said:


> the bio-mechanical flux-capacitors are not traveling along the correct dimensional planes


Whoa...is this true? If so, I'm definitely not starting Kenpo. I don't train any art where the dimensional travel of the bio-mechanical flux capacitors aren't aligned correctly. Any decent BJJ school will have your flux capacitors (both the bio-mechanical and the astral-electric versions) sorted out by the time you reach blue belt.


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## Sami Ibrahim

Flying Crane said:


> Well...an assassin has a busy schedule...



Now that was funny.


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## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> No I do not believe that Kenpo is the be all and end all of the martial arts, you would do well to stop assuming you know anything about what I believe or feel.
> Your Kenpo has its weaknesses and mine has its weaknesses but they are not the same because we do not train the same way. Maybe you should not drag Mr. Wedlake into this to try and make a point, Mr. Wedlake did not quit Kenpo, he does not haunt the Kenpo Forums criticizing Kenpo and painting with a wide brush, In fact he has done much to spread the art and his books on the art are excellent, I highly recommend them.
> 
> Not all Kenpo is ineffective but some of IT is... no no some Kenpo practitioners are effective and some are not. Your correct some people can't physically do a technique a certain way, good thing with the help of a qualified instructor they can tailor it to work for them. If someone hates Kenpo that is their choice but if they want to run their mouth spewing BS about it, they are going to get it turned right around on them, that was the point of the post how to deal with the KenpoPhobes!
> 
> As for my sounding extremely arrogant, sure, take what I say and let it offend you to your core, to the very bottom of your heart but it really is not a personal attack, I don't even know who you are, its not like you use your real name, maybe you posted something in the past that fit the KenpoPhobe bill and now you think I am targeting you. I am not, I have a short memory these days when it comes to KenpoPhobe comments, after awhile they all blur together and sound the same:
> 
> "Boo Hoo Kenpo is not effective, too commercial, too complex, too simple, not inclusive, not specializing in X or Y or Z enough, lacking in this or that, the uniforms are ugly, the masters are fat, the practitioners cannot beat boxers, kickboxers, UFC fighters, the scripted ideal phase training sequence does not work against ninja in the parking lot, their are no codified basics, the bio-mechanical flux-capacitors are not traveling along the correct dimensional planes causing dis-associative nuclear fall-out from the IKKA and Ed Parker is a lousy fighter, kicker, ninja with a penchant for con-artistry." or just imagine the sound of finger nails on a chalk board.



Wow...you need genuine help I think...

Kenpo is a great art but some stuff simply doesn't work  and if ed Parker was still around today some of the stuff that's there now wouldn't be in kenpo he'd have gotten rid of it as times change. I didn't quit kenpo and I'm perfectly fine saying some of it doesn't work every style has it's weaknesses kenpo very much included. 

And ill bring wedlake into it because he's said things don't work, graham lelliott one of his top black belts say thee are things that doesn't work. Saying that isn't disrespecting it its being honest. I love kenpo but there are things that don't work


----------



## Flying Crane

Sami Ibrahim said:


> No I will continue to post, maybe I will post more often. You did study Kenpo at one point and you quit to study another art and you do haunt the Kenpo forums sharing your experience but you usually don't paint with a wide brush, I been meaning to post on this subject for awhile but I have been busy, it is not a personal attack on you. And to anyone else who is acting like this is directed at them, if the shoe don't fit, don't wear it, but if it does fit, stick it lol


Well, let me point out that the entire world of traditional martial arts, and particularly Chinese traditional martial arts, which includes my system, gets a lot of negative press from various elements of the MMA community here.  Not everyone, but certainly some of them.  It gets debated and discussed and argued about, but in the end we can either ignore it or learn to live with it in some way because none of us can right all of the perceived wrongs that we see on the internet.

We would be up all night, trying to correct something stupid that someone else said on the internet, over and over and over.

So sure, stick around if you want and join in.  Honestly, there has been very little kenpo discussion here in a long time, those forums are pretty dead, as is Kenpotalk.com.  But relax a bit.


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> No I will continue to post, maybe I will post more often. You did study Kenpo at one point and you quit to study another art and you do haunt the Kenpo forums sharing your experience but you usually don't paint with a wide brush, I been meaning to post on this subject for awhile but I have been busy, it is not a personal attack on you. And to anyone else who is acting like this is directed at them, if the shoe don't fit, don't wear it, but if it does fit, stick it lol


Where on earth are you getting haunting from? The kenpo forum was dead until I posted about long 5....bloody well wish I hadn't now


----------



## Flying Crane

Headhunter said:


> Wow...you need genuine help I think...
> 
> Kenpo is a great art but some stuff simply doesn't work  and if ed Parker was still around today some of the stuff that's there now wouldn't be in kenpo he'd have gotten rid of it as times change. I didn't quit kenpo and I'm perfectly fine saying some of it doesn't work every style has it's weaknesses kenpo very much included.
> 
> And ill bring wedlake into it because he's said things don't work, graham lelliott one of his top black belts say thee are things that doesn't work. Saying that isn't disrespecting it its being honest. I love kenpo but there are things that don't work


I am the one who used to train kenpo, but no longer do.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

hoshin1600 said:


> wait a minute i resemble that remark!!!!
> may i ask how many years you, Sami have been studing kenpo?
> i would be more than happy to debate you on this and yes sure we can.get into the discussion deeper, are you willing ?
> ...."one thing you can rest assured they won't ever do is actually discuss the original topic in any further detail since they have no idea that the topic goes much deeper than their shallow understanding".
> 
> i personally find kenpo is not for me.  there are some small aspects that i do like but as a complete system its not for me.  however we will have to define what era of kenpo we are going to debate.  the art has undergone some drastic changes over the years and from organization to organization.
> your post while mildly entertaining shows an evident lack of understanding of other arts.  how many other arts have you trained in Sami?  are you guilty of the same phobia you describe because you are not a master of those other arts?



OK start a thread on it, introduce yourself (real name) mine is Sami Ibrahim and I will discuss it with you. To answer your question Yes I have studied other arts and I enjoy cross referencing Kenpo with other arts, I am not guilty of the same phobia and as to what era I would like to discuss the current era of Kenpo as that seems more relevant than people making claims about what it was like back in the day in the secret lair where Mr. Parker kept his real students.


----------



## Headhunter

Flying Crane said:


> I am the one who used to train kenpo, but no longer do.


I know but this guys saying that if you don't love every technique then you must have failed at kenpo and not do it anymore...quite honestly I really hope this guy doesn't teach because if he goes round telling his students that all the techniques work perfectly he'll end up getting some killed.


----------



## Flying Crane

Headhunter said:


> Where on earth are you getting haunting from? The kenpo forum was dead until I posted about long 5....bloody well wish I hadn't now


That would be a reference to me as well.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> Wow...you need genuine help I think...
> 
> Kenpo is a great art but some stuff simply doesn't work  and if ed Parker was still around today some of the stuff that's there now wouldn't be in kenpo he'd have gotten rid of it as times change. I didn't quit kenpo and I'm perfectly fine saying some of it doesn't work every style has it's weaknesses kenpo very much included.
> 
> And ill bring wedlake into it because he's said things don't work, graham lelliott one of his top black belts say thee are things that doesn't work. Saying that isn't disrespecting it its being honest. I love kenpo but there are things that don't work



Wow... you need genuine help I think... understanding that Kenpo is not the choreography.


----------



## Headhunter

Flying Crane said:


> That would be a reference to me as well.


I know you only made a few comments in that thread as well and not even saying anything bad.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

[QUOTE=" But relax a bit.[/QUOTE]

I am trying but inner demons and all that lol


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Wow... you need genuine help I think... understanding that Kenpo is not the choreography.


I understand perfectly what kenpo and that some techniques as they're written do not work they just don't there's some awful techniques in the system that simply wouldn't work on a fully committed attacker. There's many that do work but there's also some that don't plain and simple. I've trained with 7th 8th and 9th dans and all of them have said that some techniques don't work are you saying your kenpo is better than there's?


----------



## Touch Of Death

In my years of kenpo, I have come to realize there are several types: Sport influenced; which I call Kickboxing kenpo (Jeff Speakman stuff); Center Line Based, which is what I do, and it is a lot like Wing Chun, or a stick fighting art; TKD based, which is a lot of kicking, and not a lot of kenpo; And You name it on a practitioner blending what he knows with kenpo, which is a new filter, and therefore a new kenpo.


----------



## Tez3

Sami Ibrahim said:


> I am trying



I get that said about me too.....................


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> No I am not saying that if a Kenpo practitioner doesn't like all the techniques in the system they are a KenpoPhobe. I do personally like all the techniques in the Kenpo I do but liking and not liking a technique is different from painting with a wide brush and blaming the art for my own failures and even that is different from pretending to be an expert in the art after having been a failure at it and quitting. The art is not for everyone, their are plenty of excellent martial arts out there, if you look hard enough you will find one that works for you I only take issue with the ones that haunt the Kenpo world with their long dead kenpo to play the I am an expert card all the while criticizing and putting down the art, their expertise being based on their failed attempts at the art.


Liking them are fine but saying they all work is another thing you can like a technique and still acknowledge it's not practical


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

So back to the topic, When dealing with KenpoPhobia the best treatment is to get into specifics, to get in-depth about how that person trained or executed a particular aspect of the art and caused them to fail repeatedly but the problem is that even if you than tell them how easily they could fix the problem, you will discover that they have yet another excuse or issue ready to go because they have no interest in success with Kenpo, they are simply trying to tout the superiority of whatever it is they have moved on to after they failed at Kenpo.


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> So back to the topic, When dealing with KenpoPhobia the best treatment is to get into specifics, to get in-depth about how that person trained or executed a particular aspect of the art and caused them to fail repeatedly but the problem is that even if you than tell them how easily they could fix the problem, you will discover that they have yet another excuse or issue ready to go because they have no interest in success with Kenpo, they are simply trying to tout the superiority of whatever it is they have moved on to after they failed at Kenpo.


Or even easier you could simply move on with your life


----------



## Touch Of Death

Headhunter said:


> Liking them are fine but saying they all work is another thing you can like a technique and still acknowledge it's not practical


You may just not mover right, for that idea.


----------



## Flying Crane

Headhunter said:


> I know you only made a few comments in that thread as well and not even saying anything bad.


There is some history there and a sister website, kenpotalk.com which is mostly a ghost town now and gets very little traffic.

About eight years or so ago, as I was having doubts about my kenpo training, I made some comments that were negative, and I ruffled some feathers and perhaps made an enemy or two.  I actually dont think Sami was on that site during that time, but he joined later.  Maybe he read some of my earlier stuff.  Anyway, I was sorting out some issues and frustrations and doubts, and yes, I said some negative things along the way.

After that, I stepped back from it all and generally refrained from joining discussions about kenpo specifics, like techs and forms and such.  I mostly kept my comments limited to where it seemed that input from an outsider might be appropriate or useful.  And sometimes I think that could be a good reality-check, which is sometimes necessary on a single-topic website like Kenpotalk.  People can get blinded when they are always preaching to the choir.  I think Martialtalk has greater potential for honest discussion because people from all backgrounds can chime in, it's not just kenpophiles all waving the kenpo banner at each other.

So anyway, there is some history.  But I stand my my assassin comments.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Seriously, it seems like almost 98% of every time someone is dogging Kenpo, you dig into their past and find they have some past axe to grind, some fall out with the founder or they didn't get included in the in-crowd of his inner circle or they studied with someone who just took their money and didn't bother actually teaching them anything but the surface movement or they invented their own system or they went to do something else and are now trying to sell their latest "thang" as the hot shiznit.


----------



## Flying Crane

Sami Ibrahim said:


> [QUOTE=" But relax a bit.



I am trying but inner demons and all that lol[/QUOTE]
They are a *****, and yes, we all have them.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> Liking them are fine but saying they all work is another thing you can like a technique and still acknowledge it's not practical



Lets say your teacher taught you a technique in Kenpo that was not practical, why didn't you convince your teacher to fix it so it was practical, I mean your smart enough to see that something you were taught had no practical training value so why didn't you fix it, you know that is allowed right?


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Seriously, it seems like almost 98% of every time someone is dogging Kenpo, you dig into their past and find they have some past axe to grind, some fall out with the founder or they didn't get included in the in-crowd of his inner circle or they studied with someone who just took their money and didn't bother actually teaching them anything but the surface movement or they invented their own system or they went to do something else and are now trying to sell their latest "thang" as the hot shiznit.


Or they simply just don't like it and think it is rubbish. I have no issues with anyone in the kenpo world but I will happily point out things that I consider negatives and things the art could do a lot better doesn't mean I hate the art. Jeff speakman added grappling to his kenpo is he a "kenpophobe" because he obviously thought the lack of grappling was a weakness


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Lets say your teacher taught you a technique in Kenpo that was not practical, why didn't you convince your teacher to fix it so it was practical, I mean your smart enough to see that something you were taught had no practical training value so why didn't you fix it, you know that is allowed right?


Because my instructor knows more than I do and I honestly really don't care I do kenpo for fun and to get out the house a bit. I know I can fight if I need to so I don't need to start rewriting the system.


----------



## Headhunter

Flying Crane said:


> There is some history there and a sister website, kenpotalk.com which is mostly a ghost town now and gets very little traffic.
> 
> About eight years or so ago, as I was having doubts about my kenpo training, I made some comments that were negative, and I ruffled some feathers and perhaps made an enemy or two.  I actually dont think Sami was on that site during that time, but he joined later.  Maybe he read some of my earlier stuff.  Anyway, I was sorting out some issues and frustrations and doubts, and yes, I said some negative things along the way.
> 
> After that, I stepped back from it all and generally refrained from joining discussions about kenpo specifics, like techs and forms and such.  I mostly kept my comments limited to where it seemed that input from an outsider might be appropriate or useful.  And sometimes I think that could be a good reality-check, which is sometimes necessary on a single-topic website like Kenpotalk.  People can get blinded when they are always preaching to the choir.  I think Martialtalk has greater potential for honest discussion because people from all backgrounds can chime in, it's not just kenpophiles all waving the kenpo banner at each other.
> 
> So anyway, there is some history.  But I stand my my assassin comments.


I don't understand why this guys getting so upset. You have your opinion which your allowed. This may sound rude but it's not meant to be rube but I don't care what you think...I say that as in if you hate kenpo then so what it doesn't affect me but this guys taking it as a personal insult.


----------



## Flying Crane

Headhunter said:


> I don't understand why this guys getting so upset. You have your opinion which your allowed. This may sound rude but it's not meant to be rube but I don't care what you think...I say that as in if you hate kenpo then so what it doesn't affect me but this guys taking it as a personal insult.


This is a discussion forum, after all.


----------



## Headhunter

Flying Crane said:


> This is a discussion forum, after all.


Agreed I've trained in about 5 different styles imagine if I got angry every time someone didnt like a style I did...I'd be angry 24 hours a day whereas since I don't care I'm only angry 20 hours a day lol


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> Or they simply just don't like it and think it is rubbish. I have no issues with anyone in the kenpo world but I will happily point out things that I consider negatives and things the art could do a lot better doesn't mean I hate the art. Jeff speakman added grappling to his kenpo is he a "kenpophobe" because he obviously thought the lack of grappling was a weakness


 You mean he identified a weakness in HIS Kenpo and fixed it without quitting Kenpo and without getting on forums and crying about how the problem is Kenpo's fault.


----------



## Flying Crane

Sami Ibrahim said:


> You mean he identified a weakness in HIS Kenpo and fixed it without quitting Kenpo and without getting on forums and crying about how the problem is Kenpo's fault.


However you want to see it.


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> You mean he identified a weakness in HIS Kenpo and fixed it without quitting Kenpo and without getting on forums and crying about how the problem is Kenpo's fault.


No all kenpo has that weakness since there's no ground game In any kenpo so he doesn't teach American kenpo he has basically his own style now


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Ed Parker's approach to Kenpo is different from the approach of traditional Martial arts. The manuals are just guidelines for a starting point to exploring a violent scenario, you have to be a violence virgin to think that some scripted movements that you started with when exploring a violent situation is expected to be followed by enemies in the real world. To get functional with Kenpo you have to train realistically, if you think the lesson ends when you memorized some choreography that is your own stupidity not a problem with the art.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> No all kenpo has that weakness since there's no ground game In any kenpo so he doesn't teach American kenpo he has basically his own style now



Wrong, many people train and teach how to apply levers, fulcrums, locks, chokes, strangles, neck cranks, stomps, other ground components and take down defenses because American Kenpo is designed to deal with the mode of fighting prevalent on our streets today, with the popularity of UFC, BJJ etc American Kenpo instructors should be keeping to the founders definition.


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Ed Parker's approach to Kenpo is different from the approach of traditional Martial arts. The manuals are just guidelines for a starting point to exploring a violent scenario, you have to be a violence virgin to think that some scripted movements that you started with when exploring a violent situation is expected to be followed by enemies in the real world. To get functional with Kenpo you have to train realistically, if you think the lesson ends when you memorized some choreography that is your own stupidity not a problem with the art.




Okay whatever you like to think. I'll give you what you want. Kenpo is absolutely perfect and should be treated like a religion and is so perfect and ed Parker is a god who did everything perfect and we are not worthy we are kenpophobes who nothing. You have shown us the light and bought us out of the dark we are now so enlightened thank you grandmaster. Apologies for us being such failures. I will burn my gi and black belt tonight since I am such a failure compared to a master like you 

Does that make you happy now? Maybe you can stop ranting everywhere now because everyone  here isn't in love with kenpo


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Wrong


Okay where does American kenpo have any grappling in it. Show me one example of ground fighting


----------



## Touch Of Death

Headhunter said:


> Okay where does American kenpo have any grappling in it. Show me one example of ground fighting


Kenpo has introductions to the concept, but the original business model did not include grappling, and for business reasons, it does, now. At the time, the idea was that you would take a grappling class, when you wanted to study grappling.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Headhunter said:


> Okay where does American kenpo have any grappling in it. Show me one example of ground fighting


The main problem with ground-fighting is that it isn't safe. So, kenpo works a few escapes, but advises against going to the ground, if you can help it.


----------



## KenpoBoxer

My god the op talks a right load of rubbish on this thread lol


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> I know but this guys saying that if you don't love every technique then you must have failed at kenpo and not do it anymore...quite honestly I really hope this guy doesn't teach because if he goes round telling his students that all the techniques work perfectly he'll end up getting some killed.



You have an obvious mental handicap that keeps you from understanding what I type. I'm certain your just a coward who will hide behind anonymity while twisting what I have repeatedly clarified. You should continue to train with your teacher who teaches you impractical nonsense as Kenpo, you deserve each other, I'm fairly certain your exactly where you are at in the art because of your own short comings. Please refrain from misquoting me further.


----------



## Headhunter

Touch Of Death said:


> The main problem with ground-fighting is that it isn't safe. So, kenpo works a few escapes, but advises against going to the ground, if you can help it.


Yeah but the thing is especially these sometimes that isn't practical. What with mma coming in. More and more people know how to grapple. And sure kenpo has escapes from bear hugs or grabs and standing chokes there's no real defence on what to do if you get on the floor. Of course you don't want to go down but the point is what if you do that's where grappling has its advantages


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> No all kenpo has that weakness since there's no ground game In any kenpo so he doesn't teach American kenpo he has basically his own style now



And this makes you feel like less of a failure?


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> You have an obvious mental handicap that keeps you from understanding what I type. I'm certain your just a coward who will hide behind anonymity while twisting what I have repeatedly clarified. You should continue to train with your teacher who teaches you impractical nonsense as Kenpo, you deserve each other, I'm fairly certain your exactly where you are at in the art because of your own short comings. Please refrain from misquoting me further.


Yeah I'm shaking in my boots mate I'm terrified yeah so scared. I'm happy where I am thanks and my instructor got his first second and third dan off ed Parker, his 4th and 5th 6th 7th 8th off lee wedlake so I think he knows his stuff. I've been training for over 30 years and have just got my black belt so I understand the art fine thank you. Go back to crying because we don't all worship kenpo


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> And this makes you feel like less of a failure?


You're a class act aren't you


----------



## hoshin1600

Sami Ibrahim said:


> OK start a thread on it, introduce yourself (real name) mine is Sami Ibrahim and I will discuss it with you. To answer your question Yes I have studied other arts and I enjoy cross referencing Kenpo with other arts, I am not guilty of the same phobia and as to what era I would like to discuss the current era of Kenpo as that seems more relevant than people making claims about what it was like back in the day in the secret lair where Mr. Parker kept his real students.


why start another thread on the same subject ?  that makes no sense. now after you made a few more posts, i believe you are angry that other people will say that kenpo sucks.  to put it bluntly.  
you keep using the term "failure"  how is someone a failure?  that is a very strong statement and it presupposes many negative and condescending accusations.
i did kenpo for many years and after 3rd dan from a very good master, i decided it wasnt for me and found something i like better. are you saying i am a failure at kenpo? because i would say i was pretty frikin good.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> my instructor got his first second and third dan off ed Parker, his 4th and 5th 6th 7th 8th off lee wedlake so I think he knows his stuff. I've been training for over 30 years and have just got my black belt so I understand the art fine thank you.



Well anyone can make up a false lineage when they don't use there real name so no one can verify who they are but I believe someone like you could spend 30 years in Kenpo glued to Ed Parker's side and still fail to get it!


----------



## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> Kenpo has introductions to the concept, but the original business model did not include grappling, and for business reasons, it does, now. At the time, the idea was that you would take a grappling class, when you wanted to study grappling.


Um...did you say...business model?


----------



## Headhunter

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Well anyone can make up a false lineage when they don't use there real name so no one can verify who they are but I believe someone like you could spend 30 years in Kenpo glued to Ed Parker's side and still fail to get it!


I could but why would I. You think you're better than me because you use your real name? Well would you call any of us a coward or a failure if you met us in person? No you wouldn't and quite honestly the way you've acted on this thread I've lost all respect for you and I will not be answering you again and I will be putting you on ignore so I don't have to see the vile rubbish you come out with and I have also reported you due to the fact you have been insulting people and talking down on them and there instructors and have made personal attacks which is against the rules on this forum. Bye


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

hoshin1600 said:


> why start another thread on the same subject ?  that makes no sense. now after you made a few more posts, i believe you are angry that other people will say that kenpo sucks.  to put it bluntly.
> you keep using the term "failure"  how is someone a failure?  that is a very strong statement and it presupposes many negative and condescending accusations.
> i did kenpo for many years and after 3rd dan from a very good master, i decided it wasnt for me and found something i like better. are you saying i am a failure at kenpo? because i would say i was pretty frikin good.



Oh crap you argued with me using logic and respectfully... your right you would actually have to fail at the functionality of it to be a failure, if you did it and achieved skill with it but another art called to you, I get it, my advice when dealing with kenpophobes still stands.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> I could but why would I. You think you're better than me because you use your real name? Well would you call any of us a coward or a failure if you met us in person? No you wouldn't and quite honestly the way you've acted on this thread I've lost all respect for you and I will not be answering you again and I will be putting you on ignore so I don't have to see the vile rubbish you come out with and I have also reported you due to the fact you have been insulting people and talking down on them and there instructors and have made personal attacks which is against the rules on this forum. Bye


 There was an ignore button all this time and I wasted time communicating with you?


----------



## KenpoBoxer

Headhunter said:


> I could but why would I. You think you're better than me because you use your real name? Well would you call any of us a coward or a failure if you met us in person? No you wouldn't and quite honestly the way you've acted on this thread I've lost all respect for you and I will not be answering you again and I will be putting you on ignore so I don't have to see the vile rubbish you come out with and I have also reported you due to the fact you have been insulting people and talking down on them and there instructors and have made personal attacks which is against the rules on this forum. Bye


Agreed calling anyone who has ever trained martial arts a failure is disgusting since they showed the guts to go and do there training


----------



## KenpoBoxer

Sami Ibrahim said:


> There was an ignore button all this time and I wasted time communicating with you?


Communicating you mean throwing out insults to anyone who disagrees with you? Seems more like bullying to me


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

Headhunter said:


> Okay whatever you like to think. I'll give you what you want. Kenpo is absolutely perfect and should be treated like a religion and is so perfect and ed Parker is a god who did everything perfect and we are not worthy we are kenpophobes who nothing. You have shown us the light and bought us out of the dark we are now so enlightened thank you grandmaster. Apologies for us being such failures. I will burn my gi and black belt tonight since I am such a failure compared to a master like you
> 
> Does that make you happy now? Maybe you can stop ranting everywhere now because everyone  here isn't in love with kenpo



How dare you it's God not god lol


----------



## hoshin1600

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Oh crap you argued with me using logic and respectfully... your right you would actually have to fail at the functionality of it to be a failure, if you did it and achieved skill with it but another art called to you, I get it, my advice when dealing with kenpophobes still stands.


i assume this thread will be locked shortly however before it does.
lets go down this rabbit hole a bit further.
how does someone fail at it Functionally?  we are talking about a martial art so your statement would mean that someone cannot make the system work.  correct?????


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

KenpoBoxer said:


> Communicating you mean throwing out insults to anyone who disagrees with you? Seems more like bullying to me



Not bullying giving advice on how to deal with Kenpophobes  while also drawing attention to the stupidity of assuming that a failed experience is universal.


----------



## Flying Crane

I hereby no longer take any further responsibility for the direction  in which this thread goes.


----------



## Sami Ibrahim

hoshin1600 said:


> i assume this thread will be locked shortly however before it does.
> lets go down this rabbit hole a bit further.
> how does someone fail at it Functionally?  we are talking about a martial art so your statement would mean that someone cannot make the system work.  correct?????



Yes Sir by their own admission.


----------



## hoshin1600

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Not bullying giving advice on how to deal with Kenpophobes  while also drawing attention to the stupidity of assuming that a failed experience is universal.


again with the "failed experience" thing   ....first you will have to accept there is no such thing.  there is a universal truth....people leave martial arts.  people more often than not leave an art because it is not meeting their needs.  you are presuming that if an art is not meeting their needs it is the persons fault .. nonsense!!


----------



## hoshin1600

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Yes Sir by their own admission.


now define making it work.


----------



## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> again with the "failed experience" thing   ....first you will have to accept there is no such thing.  there is a universal truth....people leave martial arts.  people more often than not leave an art because it is not meeting their needs.  you are presuming that if an art is not meeting their needs it is the persons fault .. nonsense!!


If you NEED to be coddled and told you are awesome, all the time, some schools may not be right for you.


----------



## hoshin1600

to define "making it work"  would fall into a few general categories.  assault prevention & response,  self defense in a semi consensual fight (ie bar fight)  competition ...competition would fall into a spiral of further categories of  mma, point fighting ect.   the approach someone takes to solve any of these combative problems is going to be determined by their underlying philosophy. it is all together possible that ones internal philosophy would not be in accord with the philosophical precepts and approach of the art , namely for this discussion kenpo.  
in your comments there is also a presumption that every person given the right teacher and enough time can effectively apply kenpo to every single category of human combative behavior.  again this is nonsense.


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## Headhunter

hoshin1600 said:


> again with the "failed experience" thing   ....first you will have to accept there is no such thing.  there is a universal truth....people leave martial arts.  people more often than not leave an art because it is not meeting their needs.  you are presuming that if an art is not meeting their needs it is the persons fault .. nonsense!!


Agreed some people just physically can't enjoy certain martial arts for whatever reason. Like me I hate grappling training. I did it when I did mma but it just held no interest to me. I mean I know grappling is a great skill to have and is essential for mma and does absolutely have great things about it and I do enjoy the idea of grappling but when It came down to me training it I just didn't enjoy it as much as I enjoy striking. I respect grappling and would never say it's useless because it is very good but it's just not for me same as other arts for other people.


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## drop bear

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Yes Sir by their own admission.



Yeah. Ok.

Here is how we would support the validity of a technique.

It would work consistantly for somebody. Then we can say the technique works for that person.

Then the technique could be taught to a bunch of guys and it will work consistently for them.

That way we have a base of evidence the technique at least is viable.

So when a person says it doesnt work that person is the outlier.


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## hoshin1600

to make any discussion of this sort we will also have to define what a style is.   because if i say that kenpo sucks and you say it doesn't. then we need to define what we are talking about.  every form of non armed human combat involves the use of strikes, grabs, throws, and locks of some kind or fashion.  so is a kenpo punch different than a boxers punch? maybe but does the method of power generation in that punch define what kenpo is?  i would say no.  all striking arts strike.  so we must remove that aspect from the definition if what a style is.  you can slowly strip away little pieces until what is left is a combative philosophy, a methodology of training and a biophysical feel to the movement that seems to be passed through from teacher to student.  very much the same as you may have habits and body movements as your parents.


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## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> to make any discussion of this sort we will also have to define what a style is.   because if i say that kenpo sucks and you say it doesn't. then we need to define what we are talking about.  every form of non armed human combat involves the use of strikes, grabs, throws, and locks of some kind or fashion.  so is a kenpo punch different than a boxers punch? maybe but does the method of power generation in that punch define what kenpo is?  i would say no.  all striking arts strike.  so we must remove that aspect from the definition if what a style is.  you can slowly strip away little pieces until what is left is a combative philosophy, a methodology of training and a biophysical feel to the movement that seems to be passed through from teacher to student.  very much the same as you may have habits and body movements as your parents.



Not really. You would get a bunch of kempo guys and see if they could outstrike a bunch of boxers.

One would work and one would suck.


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## Sami Ibrahim

hoshin1600 said:


> again with the "failed experience" thing   ....first you will have to accept there is no such thing.  there is a universal truth....people leave martial arts.  people more often than not leave an art because it is not meeting their needs.  you are presuming that if an art is not meeting their needs it is the persons fault ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes people don't always leave because they failed but some do indeed fail because they don't realistically or with any depth beyond memorizing material and typically if they have entered a Martial arts forum discussion on a art they used to do and are harping about how impractical it is they failed in functionality as well. All I have been saying is that this failure is not on everyone else or the art and if they want a genuine solution they would get into specifics of what they did wrong instead of lumping all us of into the same box as them.
Click to expand...


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## Sami Ibrahim

drop bear said:


> Not really. You would get a bunch of kempo guys and see if they could outstrike a bunch of boxers.
> 
> One would work and one would suck.



Depends


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## Sami Ibrahim

hoshin1600 said:


> now define making it work.


If you can make it work, it being Kenpo against a skilled and resisting opponent you have attained at least some level of functionality. If you cannot make it work and blame the choreography or the written outline you have failed in functionality.


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## drop bear

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Depends



on a bunch of factors that you could play with. 

So mabye one is better because he is bigger ir spent more time training. Well they are not secrets we can ajust.

You could let them punch kick or grapple.

You could play around with the protections. So headgear no head gear.

But yat the end you would have more of a definitive answer than tying yourself up in false logic.


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## drop bear

Sami Ibrahim said:


> If you can make it work, it being Kenpo against a skilled and resisting opponent you have attained at least some level of functionality. If you cannot make it work and blame the choreography or the written outline you have failed in functionality.



Why is making it work because kempo works. And not making it work the fault of the individual?


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> Why is making it work because kempo works. And not making it work the fault of the individual?


Because that is how disciplines work.


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## Sami Ibrahim

KenpoBoxer said:


> Agreed calling anyone who has ever trained martial arts a failure is disgusting since they showed the guts to go and do there training



OK They get a gold star for effort lol


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> Not really. You would get a bunch of kempo guys and see if they could outstrike a bunch of boxers.
> 
> One would work and one would suck.


Some kenpo school punch like boxers, some do not. Boxing kenpo has some limitations.


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## Sami Ibrahim

hoshin1600 said:


> to define "making it work"  would fall into a few general categories.  assault prevention & response,  self defense in a semi consensual fight (ie bar fight)  competition ...competition would fall into a spiral of further categories of  mma, point fighting ect.   the approach someone takes to solve any of these combative problems is going to be determined by their underlying philosophy. it is all together possible that ones internal philosophy would not be in accord with the philosophical precepts and approach of the art , namely for this discussion kenpo.
> in your comments there is also a presumption that every person given the right teacher and enough time can effectively apply kenpo to every single category of human combative behavior.  again this is nonsense.



I think your correct I didn't factor in schools that emphasise point sparring and think of it as a combative problem but I did factor in the possibility that they are being taught Kenpo by someone who I jokingly call a faithless dog or someone who themselves learned the art from someone who eventually fails at Kenpo. People thought it was illogical that someone spends years learning Kenpo with legends like Mr Parker or one of his protégé, attained high rank, taught the art for years could be on the journey to failure but it does happen.


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## Sami Ibrahim

drop bear said:


> on a bunch of factors that you could play with.
> 
> So mabye one is better because he is bigger ir spent more time training. Well they are not secrets we can ajust.
> 
> You could let them punch kick or grapple.
> 
> You could play around with the protections. So headgear no head gear.
> 
> But yat the end you would have more of a definitive answer than tying yourself up in false logic.



Makes sense if I wanted an answer to the question of which individuals are more skilled but it would prove nothing in terms of the art as whole


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> Some kenpo school punch like boxers, some do not. Boxing kenpo has some limitations.



Punch like boxers? 

Boxersise punch like boxers. We could test that the same way.


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## drop bear

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Makes sense if I wanted an answer to the question of which individuals are more skilled but it would prove nothing in terms of the art as whole



Wait. If you are succesfull it is because of the art.

Isnt it?

*If you can make it work, it being Kenpo against a skilled and resisting opponent you have attained at least some level of functionality. *


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> Punch like boxers?
> 
> Boxersise punch like boxers. We could test that the same way.


I don't even know what you are talking about, now, but we don't punch anything like a boxer, and for good reason.


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## Sami Ibrahim

Perhaps had I not been so arrogant in my inital OP approach I could have simply asked politely that people limit their criticisms of the entire art in all its myriad of manifestations to only their personal experience with whatever aspect they are taking issue with but something tells me that would not have stirred the Kenpo board back to life.


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## Sami Ibrahim

drop bear said:


> Wait. If you are succesfull it is because of the art.
> 
> Isnt it?
> 
> *If you can make it work, it being Kenpo against a skilled and resisting opponent you have attained at least some level of functionality. *



While you do owe a thanks to those who have preserved the kenpo flame before passing it to you, the success is yours just as the failures are yours and yours alone.


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't even know what you are talking about, now, but we don't punch anything like a boxer, and for good reason.



Doesnt matter how you punch. Punch anyway you want. That is the point. You will either get toweld up or you wont.

But you wont be able to fall back on excuses.


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> Doesnt matter how you punch. Punch anyway you want. That is the point. You will either get toweld up or you wont.
> 
> But you wont be able to fall back on excuses.


Ok... you can go away, now.


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## Sami Ibrahim

Your really can't blame the teacher if your claiming to be smart enough to know what you're taught is not effective because you can apply the same smarts to finding quality instruction.


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## drop bear

Sami Ibrahim said:


> While you do owe a thanks to those who have preserved the kenpo flame before passing it to you, the success is yours just as the failures are yours and yours alone.



The difference between a system that works and one that doesnt is going to have an effect on that.

We are trying to work out how to determine if the system is sound.

We cant just say Kempo works. because we dont really know.

We need to  say Kempo works because a whole bunch of evidence that shows it works. 


No if we get a whole bunch of kempo guys and test them against a whole buch of boxers. Saying one or the other just happened to have more talented individuals is a bit of a stretch.


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> Doesnt matter how you punch. Punch anyway you want. That is the point. You will either get toweld up or you wont.
> 
> But you wont be able to fall back on excuses.


OK first of all, the Kenpo 5 people are all about that boxing. How is boxing superior to what they are learning?


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## drop bear

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Your really can't blame the teacher if your claiming to be smart enough to know what you're taught is not effective because you can apply the same smarts to finding quality instruction.



I can. And I do. Experience has made me smart enough to find quality instruction. And I gained that by training with poor instructors.

And If they are out there doing a poor job. Why cant I blame them?


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> OK first of all, the Kenpo 5 people are all about that boxing. How is boxing superior to what they are learning?



So there is an easy way to find out which method is better.

Get a bunch of kempo guys and a bunch of boxers. And even these kempo boxers. And test them and see which one is better.


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> So there is an easy way to find out which method is better.
> 
> Get a bunch of kempo guys and a bunch of boxers. And even these kempo boxers. And test them and see which one is better.


In general, boxers just do that one thing, so, it would follow, they are a little better. Boxing is not the best way to fight, believe it or not. But, yeah, they punch stuff a lot.


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> In general, boxers just do that one thing, so, it would follow, they are a little better. Boxing is not the best way to fight, believe it or not. But, yeah, they punch stuff a lot.



So boxers are better at punching but not the best way to fight.

Best way to punch mabye?


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> So boxers are better at punching but not the best way to fight.
> 
> Best way to punch mabye?


No... they have to cover their hand because they are punching wrong.... Duh.


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## Touch Of Death

My center line, anchored elbow, thing is the best, The rest is sport adaptation.


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> No... they have to cover their hand because they are punching wrong.... Duh.



So then test them bare knuckle.


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> My center line, anchored elbow, thing is the best, The rest is sport adaptation.



Based on what?


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> Based on what?


It gives you full body alignment;


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> So then test them bare knuckle.


Why? To see a bunch of your friends break their hands?


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> Why? To see a bunch of your friends break their hands?



To see if what you are saying is a myth or reality. Mabye your friends will break their hands. At this point we dont know.

Well we know a bit because bare knuckle boxers exist.

Bare knuckle kempoists may or may not.


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> To see if what you are saying is a myth or reality. Mabye your friends will break their hands. At this point we dont know.
> 
> Well we know a bit because bare knuckle boxers exist.
> 
> Bare knuckle kempoists may or may not.


Other than my word for the fact that they have been beating on me since I was fourteen years old, I can't help you. They didn't have the courtesy to follow me around with a film crew.


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## jks9199

*Admin Note:
Thread locked pending staff review.  *

A word to the wise... if you believe a poster is breaking the rules, use the Report button.  Do not "return fire" or feed them.  Just report it, and let the staff handle it.  I'll also simply note that a physical challenge post will get you banned.  Permanently.

jks9199
Administrator


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