# R.I.P.: The Boy Scouts of America



## elder999 (Jun 25, 2006)

Born: *1910*
Died: *June 2000*
Cause of death: *Christian Dogma*


First, some other news items:

_Philadelphia, June 2003-Gregory Lattera, a Boy Scout and camp counselor for the previous seven yeas, was informed that he is banned from scouting because he admitted publicly that he is gay. Upon reading the letter, Lattera said, "It broke my heart.

Port Orchard, Washington, June, 2002-Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert, who had provided more than 1,000 hours of community service as a Scout, was informed by the regional Boy Scouts of America executive that he had one week to declare his belief in a supreme being or quit the scouts.

*Washington, D.C., June 2000-The U.S. Supreme court, in a 5-to-4 vote, backed the BSAs right to exclude homosexuals. Justice William Rehnquist explained that gays violate the Scout directive to be clean and morally straight.*

Dallas, Texas, January 2003- Following a raid of the local Boy Scout office by federal agents, a grand jury began investigating whether the Dallas BSA franchise fraudulently inflated its membership to boost donations from non-profits._

Im a Scout -Im 46, but youre *always* a Scout, like youre always Mr. President,though it's really "always an Eagle," something I didn't have a chance for...

Hudson Valley Council, Troop 134, Order of the Arrow, Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader, camp staff member, Scoutmasters son, Scoutmaster, and former Cub Scout and Webelo. I had a subscription to _Boys Life _for ten years, and I still remember Morse Code. I learned how to use a compass, start a fire, wrap a tourniquet, lash a log, shoot a gun and bow and arrow, paddle a canoe, sail, pitch a tent, tie flies and swim while carrying a panicked drowning victim.

Steenking Badges? I had em all: sash with 23 merit badges, Scout shirts, Scout pants, Scout socks, Scout hats, Scout neckerchiefs out the wazoo. Be prepared. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, etcetera (I absolutely *still* know it by heart). Philmont. Baden Powell-words and names that only Scouting survivors would know.

When I became a Scout in Peekskill, N.Y., Nixon had just become President. I didnt know what marijuana was, or what homosexuals were. Troop 134 was sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, just a little ways from St. Columbanus Catholic Church and School. There was an American flag on St. Columbanuss altar, just as there was at my fathers Episcopal church. Because I went to the public school, I was one of the few Scouts who did not attend St. Columbanus, and, with the exception of my father- an Episcopal priest-the Scoutmasters were all Knights. And, with the later short exception of my brother, I was the only non-white scout-though no one ever did _anything_ but make me feel welcome.

Although the KC Hall was practically on the same property as the church and the school, it had a full bar upstairs. Downstairs was where Troop 134 met every Tuesday night. The meeting always started with everyone lined up in military drill, while the scoutmasters strutted back and forth making announcements. There was one year when a young, crew-cutted National Guard member served as an assistant scoutmaster. He had the scouts marchin, salutin and about-facin up a storm for months. He inspected the troops like a drill sergeant, busting chops for shirttails, blue jeans, and uncombed hair or missing badges. We made fun of him behind his back, until he went to Viet Nam, never to return.

Otherwise I remember Scouting was mostly all our dads best efforts at creating a Man Apprenticeship for their young sons. And it was a reason besides huntin and fishin for everybody to go out and play in the woods. I remember the really fun stuff like the time Michael Peck-who time would prove to be more than a little crazy- brought three bottles of gasoline to light campfires with, or the time that herpetologist Bill Haas came from Florida, with several cobras to show us! Or the time my best friend Michael Van den Berg and I were in a canoe and almost got sucked into the intake at Kensico Dam, and the time we put salt into the coffee at the KC dinner. 

In fact, it was a lot like _Jackass_, only better.:lol: 

When I went to boarding school, I had to pretty much give up scouting, and I found new diversions, but the Scout life had undeniable impact on my socialization.

So I was a little taken aback one day when my boarding school chess coach, as we drove past a Boy Scout car wash, muttered something about brownshirts. Its true-a pack of Boy Scouts in uniform bears no small resemblance to the old newsreels of Hitler Youth congregations. We didnt go around smashing windows and assaulting Jews, but I certainly knew that a major intention of Scouting had always been to promote the military virtues of loyalty, obedience, and patriotism. I realized that, to my chess coach-and German teacher, a sophisticated Kennedy Democrat and _barely_ former leftist hippie-the BSA was part of the conservative establishment. It would have been inconceivable for a kid in the KC hall to cop to being a homosexual or an atheist, but, in 1974, American culture as a whole was over the crest of a wave of change that went from free speech and civil rights to hippies, and Watergate.

Back in Peekskill, I never thought of the Scouts as a fundamentalist Christian boys club or a junior ROTC. I expected the BSA would grow and mature with America, but it seems to be losing touch-I suspect there arent very many Hip Hop troops in the hood these days-though I met Scouts from what was the equivalent back then. It will be a sad day if the Scouts prove my chess coach right and become a dull, thuggish cadre of brown shirts. America in the 21st century deserves better. America deserves volunteer based youth groups that work in an atmosphere of tolerance and diversity, not a private club devoted to enforcing rigid, suburban conformity. We now live in a time where many children are neglected on a Dickensian scale: While the grownups argue over the principles of Christianity and capitalism, many kids go without food, care, tutoring, mentoring or love. I was happy to be a Scoutmaster for my son, angered and saddened by what scouting had become, and relieved when he said he was no longer interested in Scouting, and would rather just go camping and hunting with me and my friends; it was he who got me back into hunting, after I had given it up since the death of my father .

I am not alone in my outrage. A cursory search on the net reveals Scouting for All, an organization composed of ex-Scouts like myself and devoted to reforming the Boy Scouts. Scouting for All has an impressive website and several regional headquarters. The BSAs funding from government and non-profit sources is now under legal attack, based upon the principles of the First amendment and nondiscrimination policies. 

Ironically, Baden-Powell- a real military scout in the Boer War, founded the Scouts when he found boys were reading the military manual he had written. He thought he was creating peace scouts.

Meanwhile, I *still* have my Order of the Arrow badge, as well as a few others, and I still get flashbacks when I spot old scout uniforms in thrift stores. And I laughed my butt off when I saw that episode on South Park-a show I normally despise- about the gay Scoutmaster.


----------



## Kacey (Jun 25, 2006)

Sad but true... another fatality of the religious right, and it's chokehold on certain sectors of society.


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 25, 2006)

I think it is time for the organization to go away. It seems to me that the YMCA is not about Young Christian Men anymore. If the BSA can't evolve, then, surely it must die out.

I was a Scout for only one year. My father was an Assistant Scoutmaster for years. My two older brothers are both Eagle Scouts. My younger brother was also a Scout for many years. 

I'm not really sure why I didn't stay in the program. Most of the neighborhood kids were invovled. There was one neighbor that wasn't involved at our church, or the BSA. I do remember feeling bad that everyone went camping, except Neil. Maybe that's why I quit. Or Maybe it was because 'The Muppet Show' was on the same night as Scouts. I don't know.

As a private organization, if they choose to exclude gays and athiests, that is there perogative. But then they certainly should not be able to get free use of United States facilities - such as last years' Jamboree at Fort Hill, Virginia. Not to mention that the Department of Defense spends about two million dollars preparing the site for the BSA visit. Nice.

I am a volunteer 'Let's Go Fishing Instructor' for the State of New Hampshire. For the past several years, I have worked teaching the Fly Fishing program. I didn't participate this year, because it seems the majority of our students are senior citizens. I really want to find ways to get kids invovled, but that is an uphill battle.

Anyhow .... I got two nice rainbow's tonight. Fly fishing. A skill I did not learn in the BSA.


----------



## elder999 (Jun 25, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> As a private organization, if they choose to exclude gays and athiests, that is there perogative.


 
As a registered NFP, they recieve millions in federal funding each year, and they have a federal charter, enacted by Congress in 1916, that does literally describe them as ".._for *all* boys._"


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 25, 2006)

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/guestcontributors/glandrith_20041209.html

December 09, 2004
Boy Scouts and Declaration of Independence under Attack 
George C. Landrith 

The Declaration of Independence and the Boy Scouts are unconstitutional and pose a grave danger to America&#8217;s freedoms &#8211; if you believe the left and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). For years, the ACLU has attacked the Boy Scouts. Most recently, the ACLU wants to ban the Boy Scouts from military bases. The left has also been hostile to America&#8217;s Founding Fathers for decades &#8211; considering them dangerous &#8220;dead white males.&#8221; Dangerous enough that one public school in suburban San Francisco has banned the reading of the Declaration of Independence in a fifth grade classroom. Now, you understand why most Americans hold the ACLU and the left in contempt. 

The ACLU hates and relentlessly attacks the Boy Scouts because Scouts promise to &#8220;do [their] best to do [their] duty to God and [their] country &#8230; [and] to help other people at all times&#8230;.&#8221; Scouts also work to be &#8220;trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.&#8221; Even talking of a duty to God offends the ACLU. They think such talk is dangerous. To the ACLU and the left, the Boy Scouts pose a serious risk to our representative democracy. In contrast, most Americans think we could use a little more of the Scouting ideals, not less.

The left is hostile to the Founding Fathers and this nation&#8217;s founding documents because our Founders believed we are &#8220;endowed by our Creator with inalienable rights&#8221; including &#8220;life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.&#8221; Our founders also spoke of the assistance of &#8220;Devine Providence&#8221; in winning the war for independence. To the left, these are dangerous ideas and children need to be protected from them. In contrast, most Americans believe the ideals of our nation&#8217;s founding should be celebrated, not censured.

If the Boy Scouts were dedicated to teaching boys to frequently use the F-word, the ACLU would defend Scouting to the death. But if Scouts mention a duty to God and country, they must be banned from public life. People shouldn&#8217;t be subjected to such talk! It is offensive. It is dangerous! At least, according to the ACLU.

If a teacher were ordered to stop teaching 10-year old school children how to put on a condom, the ACLU and the left would howl censorship and decry the violation of their constitutional rights. But when a teacher is prevented from reading the Declaration of Independence in class, the left is virtually silent. 

The school district defended the ban on the Declaration of Independence stating: &#8220;The district believes that well-established constitutional principles relating to the separation of church and state must prevail.&#8221; Interestingly, the school does not explain how reading the Declaration of Independence establishes religion. Such reading would simply teach history, not establish religion.

The public school district and the ACLU apparently believe the Constitution bans utterance of the words &#8220;God&#8221; and &#8220;Creator&#8221; in schools. How else does one explain banning teachers from reading the Declaration of Independence or banning Boy Scouts from public life and military bases?

This shows a profound misunderstanding of both the Constitution and our history. On the issue of freedom of religion, the Constitution forbids the government (1) to establish a religion, and (2) to prohibit the free exercise of religion. The words &#8220;separation of church and state&#8221; do not appear anywhere in the Constitution. Reading the Declaration of Independence, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, or permitting Boy Scouts on military bases does not establish religion. 

To the ACLU and the left there is no guarantee of free exercise of religion &#8211; there is only a maniacal effort to ban anything that may sound remotely religious from public life. The sad truth is that the ACLU and the left will continue to attack the Boy Scouts, ban the Declaration of Independence and the Pledge of Allegiance or anything else that has the slightest reference to God. They will not stop until any public reference to deity is banned and the Scouts are driven from the public&#8217;s view. 

Americans must stand up to these dangerous extremists. They are not defenders of our representative democracy or our Constitution. They seek to destroy both. They seek to establish government by a few over the many and to ban virtually all public expressions of religious belief. They abuse the courts to impose their radical agenda. They are an unremitting battering ram trying to tear down America&#8217;s traditions and religious freedom. It is time denounce the cultural and religious bigotry of these groups. 

It is time to end the legal loophole that allows groups like the ACLU to relentlessly sue the Boy Scouts and attack America&#8217;s heritage at taxpayer expense. It is inexcusable and scandalous that they receive even one dime of taxpayer funding.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 25, 2006)

Scout Oath (or Promise):
On my honor I will do my best 
To do my duty to *God* and my country 
and to obey the Scout Law; 
To help other people at all times; 
To keep myself physically strong, 
mentally awake, and *morally straight*.

Scout Law:
TRUSTWORTHY 
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
LOYAL 
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.
HELPFUL 
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.
FRIENDLY 
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
COURTEOUS 
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.
KIND 
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.
OBEDIENT 
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.
CHEERFUL 
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
THRIFTY 
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
BRAVE 
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.
CLEAN 
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.
*REVERENT 
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.*

Scout Motto:
Be Prepared

Scout Slogan:
Do a Good Turn Daily


These are all the same from when I entered Scouts in the 70's. Somehow today we confuse RESPECT with ACCEPT.


----------



## elder999 (Jun 25, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Scout Oath (or Promise):
> On my honor I will do my best
> To do my duty to *God* and my country
> and to obey the Scout Law;
> ...


 
It's "Oath *or* Promise" because of atheists, agnostics and otherwise non-religious people-sort of like "swearing or affiirming" in court, where the Bible is not required,BTW. While there are merit badges for virtually every faith, they aren't required, nor, in fact, was "faith in God," until recently.

Define "morally straight."*



			
				Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Scout Law:
> *REVERENT *
> *A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.*


 
If he doesn't have any religious duties, he is more than faithful in them. 
He respects the beliefs of others should be self-explanatory, but it _does_ include those who haven't any beliefs....or, at least, it *did.*

*BSA has defined "morally straight" as meaning "_ to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character_," since 1916.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 26, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> nor, in fact, was "faith in God," until recently.



Define recently, cuz, I recall not only swearing the oath to God in the 70's, but to reading the bible, and being required to memorize verses from it as well.

So unless 30 years ago is recent, you might be mistaken.


----------



## elder999 (Jun 26, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Define recently, cuz, I recall not only swearing the oath to God in the 70's, but to reading the bible, and being required to memorize verses from it as well.
> 
> So unless 30 years ago is recent, you might be mistaken.


 
The words "faith in God," and the requirement to "ackonwledge a higher being," are in fact recent. The words "to do my duty to God and country," have always been part of the oath, at least, since 1916, but are more than a little ambiguous:what is an atheist or agnostic's "duty to God?"

As for your having to read and memorize Bible verses, while that was part of my  God and Church award, this is-just as all the Religious Emblems worn by Boy Scouts,by Boy Scout charter-*not* a Boy Scout award, but one awarded to the individual Boy Scout by his respective religious leader. Of course, many troops are sponsored by religious organizations, and may even be homogenous in this regard-I know of a few Mormon troops, and this may have been the case with yours, but such activities are not, and  never have been a requirement of Scouting itself.

You can see th diversity of the religious emblems  here please note the Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic and Zoroastrian emblems.

And I was a scout _up until_ thirty years ago, so to me that just might be recent..:lol:


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 26, 2006)

LOL

Yeah it might be... I feel like less of an old fart now.  

​


----------



## elder999 (Jun 26, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> LOL
> 
> Yeah it might be... I feel like less of an old fart now.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, it's actually *32* years.....:xtrmshock :lol:


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 26, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> http://www.opinioneditorials.com/guestcontributors/glandrith_20041209.html
> 
> December 09, 2004
> Boy Scouts and Declaration of Independence under Attack
> ...


 
You know, if you post the link, and perhaps the first sentence or paragraph, if there is enough interst, the reader can follow the link.  Additionally, there is a copyright law in our society, and a copyright policy here on MartialTalk. 

I would really much prefer to read *your* thoughts. I doubt you are so incapable of thought that Mr. Landrith speaks for you.


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 26, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> _As a private organization, if they choose to exclude gays and athiests, that is there perogative._





			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> As a registered NFP, they recieve millions in federal funding each year, and they have a federal charter, enacted by Congress in 1916, that does literally describe them as ".._for *all* boys._"


 
There does seem to be a conflict between these two ideas, doesn't there? 


Should it be declared that the BSA is not a private organization, and therefore can not restrict attended from, say girls?
Or should the Federal Government stop giving them money?
Or should they amend their charter?
Maybe organizations that look out for the civil rights of all citizens, you know, the American Civil Liberties Union, is onto something, after all.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jun 26, 2006)

If the man was not a pedophile than his sexual preference should not get him banned. People might not want their sons going on camping trips with him but that is their right


----------



## Bigshadow (Jun 26, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I really want to find ways to get kids invovled, but that is an uphill battle.



I am with you there!  I wish there was a way to get kids interested in the outdoors.  It is an uphill battle for sure!


----------



## elder999 (Jun 26, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Should it be declared that the BSA is not a private organization, and therefore can not restrict attended from, say girls?


 
Actually, girls can and have been members of Boy Scout troops(not Explorers, not Sea Scouts and not Air Cadets) in areas where similar programs for girls do not exist.The first one was in 1932.


----------



## bushi jon (Jun 26, 2006)

Let me be devils advocate. As a parent of a scout should I not have a say weather another human that does not have a child in scouts be apart of my childs life. On the other hand I believe that he should be able to help out if he has a child involved no matter what there sexual preference is.


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 26, 2006)

bushi jon said:
			
		

> Let me be devils advocate. As a parent of a scout should I not have a say weather another human that does not have a child in scouts be apart of my childs life. On the other hand I believe that he should be able to help out if he has a child involved no matter what there sexual preference is.


 
I have never procreated.
My wife has two daughters from her first marriage.
The Girl Scouts have local chapters.
By your standard, I would not be able to participate. 

Correct?


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 26, 2006)

Girls can join Boy Scouts, but boys cannot join Girl Scouts.

Venture Scouting is for girls and boys 14 and high school through age 20 and is centered around high adventure and outdoorsmanship.  This program is run by BSA.

Girl Scouts have formally inducted into their charter a refusal to discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation and national origin or heritage as well as religious affiliation.  Girl Scouting is "For every girl everywhere."

Lord and Lady Baden-Powell inspired Juliette Gordon-Lowe to start an official program in the states similar to Lady Baden-Powell's group of Girl Guides.  Lady's group was supposedly to prepare young women to accept and excel in their role in society, however, Gordon-Lowe's desire was to create a venue where girls who were tomboyish (like her) could do things that were commonly considered as being things "only boys did."  She set a fine example as she was fond of hiking, shooting, hunting, furniture crafting, fishing as well as the more feminine-aligned arts of gardening, cooking, housekeeping and homemaking.  When her girls were going to play basketball, sheets had to be hung to hide the girls who played because their lower legs would show, for goodness sake.

Lord Powell's inspiration to Gordon-Lowe was his passion for peaceful outdoorsmanship, an appreciation for native peoples, naturalism.  He never intended it to be a militaristic organization, rather the British traditions which were, by American standards, 'stuffy' along with the seperatism of US and UK tended to foster the turn in BSA towards the alignment with our armed forces.  

And everybody knows how the military feels about homosexuality.

The Boy Scouts of America and the Girl Scouts of the USA are volunteer organizations.  The core of their existence is their mass of volunteer scout leaders. _*If change is to be affected in these organizations, it must come from the volunteers.*_

There are many other scouting-like organizations out there and other opportunities for children to grow, learn, develop their skills and be recognized for their outstanding community service - millions of opportunities for volunteer service.

If you want to change the face of scouting, then volunteer.  If you want to destroy it, then judge it, condemn it and complain about it.


----------



## Kacey (Jun 26, 2006)

Ultimately, people are all different, and only by allowing children to interact with people of all backgrounds are they going to become adults who are able to interact with people of all backgrounds.  Unless the person is a pedophile, sexual orientation should be irrelevant when working with children.  I realize that there are many people who disagree with this statement - but as a heterosexual teacher who has worked with multiple homosexual teachers, I have seen no problems grow out of this practice.  Did those teachers openly discuss their orientation with their students?  Not that I am aware of - but neither did they hide it; it was simply *not relevant *to what they were teaching, and therefore not a topic of discussion... but then, my social life is not a topic of discussion with my students either - so why would my sexual orientation matter, either way?

If parents are so concerned about what their children learn from other adults in their lives, then they need to be involved in actively teaching their children the moral values they want them to have... and if they think that being in the presence of a homosexual will undermine the moral values that they have taught their children, then they have either not taught them as well as they should have, or they are not really sure of what they are teaching - perhaps both.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 26, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> If you want to change the face of scouting, then volunteer. If you want to destroy it, then judge it, condemn it and complain about it.


 
Excellent.


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 26, 2006)

I have lived most of my adolescent and adult life just ignoring the Boy Scouts of America. I don't judge, condemn or complain, normally. But, it would seem, that were I too attempt to volunteer, some would question my motives. 

I wonder how much of that is the culture of fear propagated by the 'If it Bleeds, It Leads' news stories of contemporary media.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 26, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> But, it would seem, that were I too attempt to volunteer, some would question my motives.



Who, do you think, would question your motives?


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 26, 2006)

If your "motive" was to "subvert" the organization vs. giving of yourself to the boy's and in the process sharing your beliefs, then I WOULD question your motives. What I believe Shesulsas point is, is that if more people volunteered then more kids would be exposed to different people and learn to accept them...not "join the Boy Scouts to change them".


----------



## heretic888 (Jun 26, 2006)

I was a member of both the Cub Scouts and the Boy Scouts during my youth. . .

Now, I can honestly say that from my best recollection, religion was never discussed in any of our meetings or functions. There is the brief line of "duty to God" in the Scout Oath, but that's about as far as it went, and even that is nothing short of cursory lip service.

Values were discussed and practiced, sure, but these were never placed within a religious context. Not once, to the best of my memory.

Come to think of it, I don't recall sexuality or sexual behavior once being discussed in the Scouts, either. I really don't see how it means a damn one way or the other since a person's sexuality has _nothing_ to do with what we did.

Truthbetold, we spent most of our time learning to do stuff like tie square nots, shoot a bow and arrow, and identify the tracks of different animals. You don't need to be a friggin' straight Christian to do that stuff.

Laterz.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 26, 2006)

Indeed.

If you think you are a valuable person with valuable things to share with youngsters such that you may guide them effectively through a certain program, then by all means, volunteer.  Motive should only be about making an excellent experience for the youngsters.  

If people are concerned about where the youth in America is headed, get involved.  

However, it is undeniable that if volunteers in such an organization balk at certain tenets of said organization and make it known and present alternatives and rational, impassioned arguments that someone must receive these comments and suggestions.

I am lucky enough to be on the CEO cabinet in our council for GSUSA, so I have a piece of the ear of the CEO.  She listens and goes to bat for our girls and for the volunteers.  Change is effected slowly, as is expected, but this can work.

If your motives are to get into the organization and tear it apart and rebuild it from the ground up ... well, there are places for people who do such a thing ... though proving yourself through your service to the target of the organization lends bigger credence to your efforts.


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 26, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Who, do you think, would question your motives?


 
Well, bushi jon said this .. 



			
				bushi jon said:
			
		

> As a parent of a scout should I not have a say weather another human that does not have a child in scouts be apart of my childs life.


 
I think this attitude is relatively common. Oh, well. As I said, I have managed most of the last 30 years of my life indifferent to the Boy Scouts of America.

My younger step daughter is attending the first year, of the two-year 'Councilor in Training' program, beginning next week. For six years, she has been a camper at Camp Farnsworth in Vermont. She was a member of the Girl Scouts for two of those six years, if I recall. This year, and next, she will participate in the CIT program, and I am certain she will end up working at a camp for many years to come.


----------



## Carol (Jun 26, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I think this attitude is relatively common.


 
I'd have to unfortunately agree.  I've seen this attitude in other community organizations outside of scouting as well.  Parents either want to see some sort of ownership...that a leader is affecting the leader's own family as much as someone elses family.  Or worse, the parents may even assume that an adult's intentions for being around kids are...quite improper.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 27, 2006)

From someone inside a scouting organization, it's actually quite simple: convenience.

It's convenient to be a scout leader if your child is interested in scouting and having a child is an excuse to get involved in organizations which lead youth.  Most childless folk are less apt to give their time and energies to youth on a volunteer basis.  Work with kids and not get paid? P-shaw.  Others the thought just doesn't occur to them.

And when these kids get tired, embarrassed or too busy for and bored with scouting, it's equally as convenient for their parents to leave the organization as well, often leaving scores of youth abandonded by people who once harped to teach them responsibility, loyalty, etcetera.  

There are other important ways to lead youth which will have almost as strong effect on children and their lives than parenthood.  If we want to make a difference in the lives of growing people, we must remember that.


----------



## bushi jon (Jun 27, 2006)

First off I said I was playing devil advocate. I have been involved with youth programs most of my adult life with my children or without them. I believe I know what is best for my children as a parent so I get involved. I also am president of a not for profit youth sport(free of charge). I have for the better part of 20 years been questioned why I wanted to be involved. I have always accepted that people(parents)will and should question why people are involved(and if they do not like it volunteer). I have the right as a parent to send or not to send a child to any person,place or thing I deem as does not meet my standard(my standard may change).I believe the boys scout also have that right if the person does not have a child involved if there is a child involved then they have to put the childs needs first.


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 27, 2006)

bushi jon, while I quoted you specifically, I do not mean to single you out, in any way. My father was an assistant scout master, and he had three sons involved throughout his tenure. As I recall, there was, at that time (early - mid 70's), a single male person involved with the local troop.

I do believe that the thought you placed on the board (devil's advocate or not) is fairly prominent in society today.


----------



## elder999 (Jun 29, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> The Boy Scouts of America and the Girl Scouts of the USA are volunteer organizations. The core of their existence is their mass of volunteer scout leaders. _*If change is to be affected in these organizations, it must come from the volunteers.*_
> 
> If you want to change the face of scouting, then volunteer. If you want to destroy it, then judge it, condemn it and complain about it.


 
That's a fair statement, in part anyway-and what I'd be inclined to do.

Of course, my kids are grown, now, and I don't have any time to volunteer-though it might just wind up as part of my retirement/second (_third?fourth?_) career phase of life.

Just to play devil's advocate again, though, let's substitute another NFP for the Boys Scouts of America:

_Planned Parenthood_.

WOuld you be advocating, then, that  the so-called right to life movement should volunteer for Planned Parenthood in order to change it from within?

Naturally, they're both structured quite differently, but I have to point out again that the BSA's policies in regard to sexuality and faith are being promulgated by a few old men in Texas-it wasn't put to a vote, or anything resembling one by the volunteer membership/leadership.

In the meantime, gay and atheist (and *I'm*_ neither_) scouts  (as in boys) have been excluded, both in  practice and as a matter of policy.

And I still don't see (at all) where any conflict between being gay and being morally straight-as defined by BSA-exists at all.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 29, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> Just to play devil's advocate again, though, let's substitute another NFP for the Boys Scouts of America:
> 
> _Planned Parenthood_.
> 
> WOuld you be advocating, then, that  the so-called right to life movement should volunteer for Planned Parenthood in order to change it from within?


Planned Parenthood is not about guiding and shaping youth nor the politics of such, and that's what this thread is all about.

Think about it - the people who have contact with the youth are the volunteers.  If a few GOB's (Good Old Boys) in TX are calling all the shots, then would it not be of the utmost importance for the volunteers to make their voices heard to these men?  And if refused, what does one do?  Abandon the boys? Stand up for what they believe in? Or keep on teaching those boys the values of civil acceptance, hard work, service and naturalism?  

How many of those boys, do you think, even KNOW what the BSA stance on homosexuality and atheism is?  I'm betting that population consists of a minority which subcategories are: 

1. gay kids/kids of gays, 
2. ultraliberal kids/kids of ultraliberals, 
3. right wing kids/kids of right wingers, 
4. kids in troops where the leaders and scoutmasters make no bones about it,
5. kids who read the newspaper.  I'm betting the rest are camping, sharpening their pocketknives, and earning merit badges.

Truthfully, most volunteers work their butts off for those boys and are likely hard-pressed to discuss these issues with the boys.  They're also likely a bit lazy to find alternative organizations and go to the press.

I wonder what BSA would do if all the volunteers and employees who work for the organization who disagree with these anti-gay and anti-atheist tenets left BSA in one fell swoop?  What's that? Flounder you say? Heresy!  As long as BSA is idolized as it is by our government and our people, it will live a long, prosperous life.  



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> In the meantime, gay and atheist (and *I'm*_ neither_) scouts  (as in boys) have been excluded, both in  practice and as a matter of policy.


 Yes, sadly, they have ... until (and *if*, of course) they find a tolerant leader.



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> And I still don't see (at all) where any conflict between being gay and being morally straight-as defined by BSA-exists at all.


 I concur.  I have known my share of homosexual people who were what a GOB would call "decent, upstanding citizens who care about this country."  For whatever reason, more than half of them (unfortunately) have voted Republican, though I suspect it's more about gun rights (bashing prevention) than any kind of progressive idealism.  

I think this political issue of whether gays and atheists can be "morally straight" is going to be like the abortion debate - polarized and unsolvable except to allow people the freedoms they SHOULD BE granted to them just by nature of being, in this case, American Citizens ... or in other cases, human beings under the grand connected universe.

Peace


----------



## Makalakumu (Jul 1, 2006)

If you look at what the the scout law actually says, the left and the right cannot lay claim to all of it.  BSA at its most fundamental level, is independent...and this is coming from an eagle scout.


----------



## Kane (Jul 1, 2006)

While I disagree strongly with the discrimination against gays, atheists, and agnostics that the BSA practices, I still think it is their right. Therefore the government should not force the BSA to change their policies because it violates the first amendment of our nation. But I do think people should "boycott" BSA and not join until they change their discriminatory stance.


----------



## elder999 (Jul 22, 2006)

Seen here. 



> Philadelphia may evict Boy Scouts council
> 
> PHILADELPHIA - The city said it will evict a Boy Scout council from its publicly owned headquarters or make the group pay a fair rent price unless it changes its policy on gays.
> 
> ...


----------

