# Yemeni child bride dies of internal bleeding



## Bob Hubbard

*Yemeni child bride dies of internal bleeding*



> Sanaa,  Yemen: Child brides are common in Yemen, where the UN estimates that one  in three girls are married before 18.
> 
> *STORY HIGHLIGHTS*
> 
> 
> 12-year-old  Elham Mahdi was married off to a man at least twice her age
> The  child died of internal bleeding caused by intercourse three days after  her marriage
> The minimum age to marry is still under debate in  Yemen
> Last year a 12-year-old Yemeni forced into marriage died  during childbirth. Her baby also died




I'm at a loss for words to express my disgust.


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## Archangel M

[sarcasm] But what about cultural relativism Bob? Who are we to judge what they think is right or wrong? [/sarcasm]

BTW, I agree with you.


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## Sukerkin

Cultural relativism has it's place but some things should be universal for humankind, no matter where they live.  

I too could not believe what I was reading when I saw this on the BBC last week.


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## grydth

The story is absolutely disgusting. I'd love to join in on the stoning of the Yemenis but for the fact we have plenty of horror stories on children right here in the USA.

* There's a trial going on in California where a released sex offender killed one, and probably 2 (or more) young girls. The USA did no better job of protecting those girls than Yemen did of protecting Elham Mahdi.... and it happens across the country again and again..

* There's a thread going here right now of a girl bullied relentlessly for months until she hung herself. Wonder if the 12 year old sister who found her body thinks we're better than the Yemen of the 12 year old victim.

* A young man was shot and killed in Syracuse because he _looked at_ the gunman the wrong way. No words were exchanged, so even,  "He dissed me" is a bygone quaintness.... now, no diss even required before emptying the gun into somebody. Wonder if that victim's family finds us so much more civilized than Yemen.


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## CoryKS

grydth said:


> * There's a trial going on in California where a released sex offender killed one, and probably 2 (or more) young girls. The USA did no better job of protecting those girls than Yemen did of protecting Elham Mahdi.... and it happens across the country again and again..


 
Give me a ****ing break, alright?  You're comparing a violent crime to a government-sanctioned policy of forced marriage for little girls.  There will never be 100% protection against crime, and it's a terrible thing when it happens.  But that is vastly different from a situation where the crime is condoned by the government and Yemeni society.  To turn this around to make a "we're no better" point is ridiculous.


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## Sukerkin

Best to let that point lie for a while, gentlemen.  

This is a subject that should appall the soul of all right-thinking men (that should be capitalised really for I mean Mankind); ponder on what has happened and send your sorrows to whatever externalised source of morality you favour.

A young girls life has been taken, by her husband, in a fashion that is unfathomable to us.  That should be your focus for now.

Recriminations and calls for something to be done can come later.  Show your compassion first in soft words and sadness.  The compassion to bring change can come later.


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## Omar B

CoryKS said:


> Give me a ****ing break, alright?  You're comparing a violent crime to a government-sanctioned policy of forced marriage for little girls.  There will never be 100% protection against crime, and it's a terrible thing when it happens.  But that is vastly different from a situation where the crime is condoned by the government and Yemeni society.  To turn this around to make a "we're no better" point is ridiculous.



You said it man.  There's no comparing legal practices in one countries to crimes in another, it's not a 1 to 1 comparison at all.  In fact if anything is shows a misunderstanding of what's a crime or what's not.

Disgusting story by the way.  My grandmother was married off to my grandfather when she was 12, it was an arranged marriage like most Indian marriages.  But here's the difference, he couldn't touch her till she was 18.  She lived in the family home, slept in his sister's room and was treated like a visiting family member till she was grown.


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## grydth

CoryKS said:


> Give me a ****ing break, alright?  You're comparing a violent crime to a government-sanctioned policy of forced marriage for little girls.  There will never be 100% protection against crime, and it's a terrible thing when it happens.  But that is vastly different from a situation where the crime is condoned by the government and Yemeni society.  To turn this around to make a "we're no better" point is ridiculous.



No breaks. One society which signally and grotesquely fails to protect its young people has no business looking down upon another. 

To speak as if we were looking at anything like "100% protection against crime" in the USA is what is ridiculous..... how many more examples does one need of anything from released pederasts to reassigned Father Bill with happy fingers?

A society which, to such a signal extent, has lost the will to protect itself has no business sneering at other lands.


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## Archangel M

Sorry. I agree with the others. Criminality and government sanction of child abuse are far different matters.

And the "we cant judge others till we are perfect" meme is a weak attempt at a debate stopper IMO.


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## grydth

Omar B said:


> You said it man.  There's no comparing legal practices in one countries to crimes in another, it's not a 1 to 1 comparison at all.  In fact if anything is shows a misunderstanding of what's a crime or what's not.



Well, Omar, its like this..... one of us has been both a defense counsel and a military prosecutor in scores of cases, and one has not. One of us has successfully prosecuted and sent a serial child molester to Leavenworth Prison and one has not. 

Chances are the one who has understands "what's a crime" far better than the other.


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## Archangel M

grydth said:


> Well, Omar, its like this..... one of us has been both a defense counsel and a military prosecutor in scores of cases, and one has not. One of us has successfully prosecuted and sent a serial child molester to Leavenworth Prison and one has not.
> 
> Chances are the one who has understands "what's a crime" far better than the other.



Appeal to authority? I can play that game too. Look I understand your point, but that does not excuse the heinousness of the subject of this thread. Or mean that we cannot judge the wrongness of it.


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## grydth

Archangel M said:


> Sorry. I agree with the others. Criminality and government sanction of child abuse are far different matters.
> 
> And the "we cant judge others till we are perfect" meme is a weak attempt at a debate stopper IMO.



No apology needed for disagreeing with me on the merits; impugning my motives is something else again. 

I don't have the authority to stop any debate here; I do have the power, frequently used, to be the dissenter. That'll continue until Hubbard has his fill and puts me into exile.


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## Archangel M

grydth said:


> No apology needed for disagreeing with me on the merits; impugning my motives is something else again.
> 
> I don't have the authority to stop any debate here; I do have the power, frequently used, to be the dissenter. That'll continue until Hubbard has his fill and puts me into exile.



Fair enough.


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## Omar B

grydth said:


> Well, Omar, its like this..... one of us has been both a defense counsel and a military prosecutor in scores of cases, and one has not. One of us has successfully prosecuted and sent a serial child molester to Leavenworth Prison and one has not.
> 
> Chances are the one who has understands "what's a crime" far better than the other.



So I guess that one would grasp that this is an accepted practice there and a crime here?


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## CoryKS

grydth said:


> No breaks. One society which signally and grotesquely fails to protect its young people has no business looking down upon another.
> 
> To speak as if we were looking at anything like "100% protection against crime" in the USA is what is ridiculous..... how many more examples does one need of anything from released pederasts to reassigned Father Bill with happy fingers?
> 
> A society which, to such a signal extent, has lost the will to protect itself has no business sneering at other lands.


 
You are completely irrational.  If you want to start a new thread to thump your breast over how we "lost the will to protect ourself", go ahead.  But quit using this one as a jump-off point for it because you are threadjacking.


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## grydth

CoryKS said:


> You are completely irrational.  If you want to start a new thread to thump your breast over how we "lost the will to protect ourself", go ahead.  But quit using this one as a jump-off point for it because you are threadjacking.



One would have to be far worse than merely irrational to attempt a threadjacking of the Forum Admin's own OP.... in point of fact, I am disagreeing with specific points posted here. 

However, I _would _be in violation of Forum rules to engage in a name calling match. Shame we can't factually and respectfully disagree on things without stooping to that. 

My points are made on this thread, I yield you any last words.....


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## Bob Hubbard

Folks, I think we can agree that this situation is very offensive to us, and agree that we also need to do more on the home front.  The later does not excuse nor negate the former. Why don't we just keep this thread to the Yemen issue, and the US specific issues to the others? Hmm? Danke.


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## Bob Hubbard

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/10/dead-yemeni-child-bride-tied-raped-says-mom



> SHUEBA, Yemen (AP) &#8212; A 13-year-old Yemeni child bride who bled to  death shortly after marriage was tied down and forced to have sex by her  husband, according to interviews with the child's mother, police and  medical reports.
> The girl's mother, Nijma Ahmed, 50, told the Associated  Press that before her daughter lost consciousness, she said that her  husband had tied her up and forced himself on her. "She looked like she  was butchered," she said about her daughter's injuries.
> Elham Assi, 13, bled to death hours after she spoke to  her mother and just days after she was married to a 23-year-old man. She  died on April 2 in the deeply poor Yemeni village of Shueba, some 200  kilometers northwest of the capital. Her husband, Abed al-Hikmi, is in  police custody.





> Al-Hikmi took his young bride to a nearby medical clinic, asking a  doctor there to administer her tranquilizers so she would not resist his  advances. The clinic said it refused.
> Al-Hikmi then obtained performance enhancing pills,  according to the police interrogation, and that night completed the act  while she screamed.
> The next day, he returned to the same medical clinic  carrying Assi because she could not walk.
> "I told him not to go near her for at least ten days,"  said Dr. Fathiya Haidar. She said Assi's vaginal canal was ripped.
> A forensic report obtained by the AP showed that Assi's  injuries were much more extensive, including extensive tearing around  the vagina and rectum, suggesting that there might have been additional  intercourse after the clinic visit.



People like this.....deserve a slow, agonizing death over a long period of time.


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## Empty Hands

Bob Hubbard said:


> People like this.....deserve a slow, agonizing death over a long period of time.



It looks like he was arrested and will be charged.  As Omar pointed out, in cultures with child marriages, certain conventions are usually in place to prevent the worst abuses.  It looks like this man is a criminal in Yemen, and this act can't be blamed on "Yemenis being Yemeni".  After all, even in the US, the law specifically allows 13 year old females and 14 year old males to marry with parental permission in New Hampshire, and many other states simply require parental permission for under 18 years of age with no set minimum.

That said, the patriarchal culture in place in Yemen and other highly religious Islamic (and other) countries makes such abuses more likely.  Even when it doesn't result in injury and death.  Hopefully these cultures will grow out of their barbarities, and start to see all people as equal and deserving of respectful treatment.  Fundamentalism is one thing standing in the way there.


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## Twin Fist

grydth said:


> Well, Omar, its like this..... one of us has been both a defense counsel and a military prosecutor in scores of cases, and one has not. One of us has successfully prosecuted and sent a serial child molester to Leavenworth Prison and one has not.
> 
> Chances are the one who has understands "what's a crime" far better than the other.



you are talking out your backside dude.

comparing CRIMES to cultural NORMS makes no sense what so ever


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## Twin Fist

Bob Hubbard said:


> People like this.....deserve a slow, agonizing death over a long period of time.




This


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## Bob Hubbard

Twin Fist said:


> you are talking out your backside dude.
> 
> comparing CRIMES to cultural NORMS makes no sense what so ever


Keep it civil.


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## Big Don

Omar B said:


> You said it man.  There's no comparing legal practices in one countries to crimes in another, it's not a 1 to 1 comparison at all.  In fact if anything is shows a misunderstanding of what's a crime or what's not.


In Iran, the government executes homosexuals, in Saudi Arabia, they are about to execute a "sorcerer" both practices are legal, and yet, anywhere in the civilized world, BOTH would, and should be condemned.


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## jks9199

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Please remain on the original topic.


jks9199
Sr. Moderator
*


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## kaizasosei

I don't think you even need that much civilization to see when you are hurting another person.  I don't even think you need much civilization to know that a girl of 12 is not even physically mature let alone mentally. 
Barbarianism and such ways will actually disguise themselves as culture and civilization.  That is why it angers us to hear about this.  Naturally, we know that it's all ********. It is hard to even talk about it in a civilized way because it's simply disgusting that people can get off with **** like this.  The truth is that this is probably the result of a greedy and harmfull male oriented society.  

I always say, you can be raised by wolves or cats, and you'll be like a savage animal.  But noone will kill your soul and teach you to hurtfully betray your own heart like ignorant people do.  In many ways, you'd be better off if the wolves take you in.


j


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## Brother John

grydth said:


> No breaks. One society which signally and grotesquely fails to protect its young people has no business looking down upon another.
> 
> To speak as if we were looking at anything like "100% protection against crime" in the USA is what is ridiculous..... how many more examples does one need of anything from released pederasts to reassigned Father Bill with happy fingers?
> 
> A society which, to such a signal extent, has lost the will to protect itself has no business sneering at other lands.


 
wrong.
Our society does QUITE a bit to strive to protect the young. It isn't perfect, there's no way to make is so that  NO children get molested/killed. THAT issue lies at the evil in the heart of man, and that knows NO boundaries, cultural / political / geographical...etc. Children are easy prey for those vile enough to prey on them, in our land, Yemen, France.......everywhere.

But our society does NOT condone a practice like this one that resulted in the death of this young CHILD. Sorry, but the comparison you're trying to create falls FAR short and is void of merit.

Our society has in NO way lost the will to protect itself or it's young. Not even close. We do NOT endorse social institutions that lead directly to a child being sexually abused and killed.... not like Yemen.
sorry if that offends you, but there's no avoiding the truth of it.

Your Brother
John


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## Twin Fist

here is the trick, will the locals DO anything about it?


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## Bob Hubbard

From Wiki


> *Yemen*
> 
> "Yemen is full of child brides. Roughly half of Yemeni girls are  married before 18, some as young as eight."[20]  Until recently, Yemeni law set the minimum age for marriage at 15. But  tribal customs and interpretations of Islam often trump the law. In  practice, "Yemeni law allows girls of any age to wed, but it forbids sex  with them until the indefinite time they&#8217;re 'suitable for sexual  intercourse.'"[20]  In 1999, the minimum marriage age of fifteen for women, rarely  enforced, was abolished; the onset of puberty, interpreted by  conservatives to be at the age of nine, was set as a requirement for  consummation of marriage.[21]
> In April 2008, the case of Nujood  Ali, a 10 year-old girl who successfully obtained a divorce,  sparked headlines around the world, and prompted calls to raise the  legal age for marriage to 18.[22]  Later in 2008, the Supreme Council for Motherhood and Childhood  proposed to define the minimum age for marriage at 18 years. The law was  passed in April 2009, with the age voted for as 17. But the law was  dropped the following day following manouvers by opposing  parliamentarians. Negotiations to pass the legislation continue.[23]  Meantime, Yemenis inspired by Nujood's efforts continue to push for  change, with Nujood herself involved in at least one rally.[24]  And one awareness campaign claims to have prevented some early  marriages in the Yemen governate of Amran.[25]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Yemen


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## Omar B

Big Don said:


> In Iran, the government executes homosexuals, in Saudi Arabia, they are about to execute a "sorcerer" both practices are legal, and yet, anywhere in the civilized world, BOTH would, and should be condemned.



But are the people who live there ok with it or are they abhorred at the practice?  An unjust law can be changed.  

I think homosexuals should be given the right to marry, not everyone thinks that way.  Many laws and practices are changed over time, maybe this will be this countries wake up call.  Till then it's still on the books there and it's their own citizens who have the power to do anything about it.


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## Blade96

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm at a loss for words to express my disgust.



Right on.


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## theletch1

Omar B said:


> But are the people who live there ok with it or are they abhorred at the practice? An unjust law can be changed.
> 
> I think homosexuals should be given the right to marry, not everyone thinks that way. Many laws and practices are changed over time, maybe this will be this countries wake up call. Till then it's still on the books there and it's their own citizens who have the power to do anything about it.


 I need a little clarification on this post, Omar.  Are you saying that, no matter how horrific the practice may be to us, if the people in the area are ok with it we should just accept it as local custom?


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## Brother John

theletch1 said:


> I need a little clarification on this post, Omar.  Are you saying that, no matter how horrific the practice may be to us, if the people in the area are ok with it we should just accept it as local custom?


what I got from Omar's statement is that perhaps there's enough people in Yemen who are just as disgusted with this practice w/in their land/culture as we're expressing here and that it can be overturned after enough outcry.

Your Brother
John


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## theletch1

Thanks, John.  From reading one of Bob's postings, legislation was passed to make the minimum age for marriage 17 but was overturned one day later by parlimintary manuevering of the conservative extremists in the government.  Sounds like it's gonna take more than a law change to fix the situation.


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## Omar B

Brother John said:


> what I got from Omar's statement is that perhaps there's enough people in Yemen who are just as disgusted with this practice w/in their land/culture as we're expressing here and that it can be overturned after enough outcry.
> 
> Your Brother
> John



Exactly.  If they do something about it then that's great, but maybe they accept this behavior.  Or maybe they don't have the political system where they can change things.  Just like gay marriage is slowly making it's way around the states.


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## Brother John

theletch1 said:


> Thanks, John.  From reading one of Bob's postings, legislation was passed to make the minimum age for marriage 17 but was overturned one day later by parlimintary manuevering of the conservative extremists in the government.  Sounds like it's gonna take more than a law change to fix the situation.


Yes!
Unfortunately, passing a law is one thing....
enforcing it.... that's quite another.

Your Brother
John


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## Bob Hubbard

I'm disgusted by the situation, however, it is up to the people there to demand and force change. I can protest all I want, doesn't matter. Not my country, not my people, not my problem.  Cold? Yes.  But what else can I do?  Demand Obama send in the marines?   The Yemeni need to desire this change and make it happen. Otherwise, it's moot.


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## Ken Morgan

Most people in the country are illiterate tribesmen, scattered all over the place. Theyve been living their lives the same way for millennium. Change almost always comes from within the cities and the educated middle class.
If you really want change in the world develop an educated middle class.


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## OnlyAnEgg

I sometimes wonder how much more wretched our species can get.  then, sadly, someone shows me.


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## SensibleManiac

> We do NOT endorse social institutions that lead directly to a child being sexually abused and killed.... not like Yemen.


Brother, what about the catholic church?


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## Brother John

SensibleManiac said:


> Brother, what about the catholic church?


They don't condone it. They HAVE, however, systematically covered up a LOT of cases of it. But where and when proof can be found that it has happened I believe that there's been prosecution resulting, in many cases, in the "church" having to pay a LOT of money and be called to task for how they've dealt with it, or sadly....haven't. 

So..... again, this is an apples to oranges comparison. Not applicable.

Your Brother
John


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## theletch1

Brother John said:


> They don't condone it. They HAVE, however, systematically covered up a LOT of cases of it. But where and when proof can be found that it has happened I believe that there's been prosecution resulting, in many cases, in the "church" having to pay a LOT of money and be called to task for how they've dealt with it, or sadly....haven't.
> 
> So..... again, this is an apples to oranges comparison. Not applicable.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 Too true. What's happening in the Catholic church (and others I'd wager) is patently illegal and opens the offenders up to prosecution.  What's going on in Yemen is still considered legal and even the norm.  The church offenses aren't condoned they are condemned by the very institution. No one in the church is arguing that it's tradition.


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## Carol

Brother John said:


> They don't condone it. They HAVE, however, systematically covered up a LOT of cases of it. But where and when proof can be found that it has happened I believe that there's been prosecution resulting, in many cases, in the "church" having to pay a LOT of money and be called to task for how they've dealt with it, or sadly....haven't.
> 
> So..... again, this is an apples to oranges comparison. Not applicable.
> 
> Your Brother
> John



There have been a few in positions of power that have covered up a lot, it looks like.  But the rank and file priests and laity do not condone that at all.


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## SensibleManiac

Brother John, how do you know what they "condone".
When someone works to "systematically" cover something like this up to benefit their own interests, then this is just as bad as"condoning" it as you put it.

Think about it, if someone were to do this to someone you love, what would it matter that they "paid" you afterwords to try and shut you up, what would the difference be? 
Exactly, there wouldn't be one. 

The catcholic church had commited atrocities like this for centuries, (yes there is proof) but we all turn a blind eye to this? And condemn others of isolated cases in their countries.

Let's get it straight what happened here is a terrble criminal act and it disgusts me as much as you, it's just that we should show the same disgust wherever it occurs, not cover it up or make excuses.

Pedophilia is the same in any country and that isn't apples to oranges.

When a religious institution goes out of it's way to protect pedophiles for it's own interests, and they are not persecuted because they are a religion, well that's just as bad as a country that condones pedophilia.

Especially when entire countries have been turning a blind eye to the catholic church for condoning and protecting pedophiles for so long and entire countries have done nothing until now.

Sounds like the same ***** to me.


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## SensibleManiac

> Too true. What's happening in the Catholic church (and others I'd wager) is patently illegal and opens the offenders up to prosecution. What's going on in Yemen is still considered legal and even the norm. The church offenses aren't condoned they are condemned by the very institution. No one in the church is arguing that it's tradition.



It's gone up all the way to the Pope, in other words even the highest officials knew about it and chose to turn a blind eye, (traditionally) they have been doing this for a very long time, it's nothing new.
But we choose to not old the church responsible for aiding pedophiles continue their crimes by spreading them around.

It HAS NOT opened up the offenders to prosecution in the past but hid and moved them around, this ha been proven and yet the church is not held accountable? Why not? What ecuse can we come up to for them?

They have not been condemned by the "very" institution as you put it up until they were forced to toprotect their own a****.

They don't have to argue that it's a tradition, but they have traditionally done it. "Centuries" is a long time, enough to say traditionally, that's what they did.


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## theletch1

If it were "condoned" there'd be no need for a cover up.  The case in Yemen is a case of something atrocious being openly accepted.  The cases in the church are being dealt with more aggressively with each passing year.  I'm not a catholic so I've no reason to sit and argue about the merits (or lack there of) of the church.  As was stated earlier, you're comparing apples to oranges here.  Let's get back to the discussion of what's going on in Yemen in this thread and leave the catholic church to the threads here dedicated to the catholic church.


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## Empty Hands

theletch1 said:


> The case in Yemen is a case of something atrocious being openly accepted.



No, it's not accepted, the man has been arrested for murder.  Child marriage accepted yes, child rape until death, no.


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## The Last Legionary

Good. Let's hope he gets a traditional sentence too.  Stoning.


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## SensibleManiac

> If it were "condoned" there'd be no need for a cover up. The case in Yemen is a case of something atrocious being openly accepted. The cases in the church are being dealt with more aggressively with each passing year. I'm not a catholic so I've no reason to sit and argue about the merits (or lack there of) of the church. As was stated earlier, you're comparing apples to oranges here. Let's get back to the discussion of what's going on in Yemen in this thread and leave the catholic church to the threads here dedicated to the catholic church.



The fact that they are covering it up is even worse than condoning it.
Think about it for a second, they KNOW how heinous it is and how it would make them look and they condone it's continuation and keep it going on, thus aiding it and helping to continue this ugly tradition.
Face it, it's just as bad as condoning it. 
The fact hat they have been "Appearing" as they are dealing with it more aggressively is because they no longer have a choice, if it were up to them, it would still be going on. They have to now deal with it becasue they have been exposed.
I'm not comparing anything, I'm just stating the fact that this is just as bad as what we are all accusing them of. It's easy to point the finger but that finger has to be pointed wherever this type of crime exists.

I am simply replying to what you have said, and further clarifying that you were not only wrong in your assertion that the catholic church should get a pass, but, "hey look at them over there," but also stating my opinion as to why I feel that this is pertinent to this discussion.


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## Brother John

The comparison between this tragedy in Yemen and the horrible acts of a exceedingly small minority of Catholic priests is an absolute 'apples to oranges' comparison. No connection other that they're both aweful. Condoning horrible things is very bad. Covering up the existance of horrible things instead of addressing them and striving to rid them from your ranks is also very bad. That's all that connects those things. "America" isn't condoning what's going on in these cases brought against Catholic clergy, in fact, there are govt. officials (DA & assistants) looking into and/or prosecuting them all. Our culture is doing what it can to prevent, address and punish on these issues.....
opposite of condoning or passing it off as "custom" or "tradition". 

Your Brother
John


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## Empty Hands

Brother John said:


> opposite of condoning or passing it off as "custom" or "tradition".



Again, what this man has done is not being condoned by the Yemenis.  He has been arrested.


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