# Punch and Kick Force?



## Kane

Does anyone know the average punch of a normal human and an average boxer/karate expert in PSI?

Also what is the kick force of a normal human and a kickboxer/karate expert in PSI? I assume it is MUCH higher than the punch considering our legs are more than 3 times stronger than our arms.



Thanks


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Kane said:
			
		

> Does anyone know the average punch of a normal human and an average boxer/karate expert in PSI?
> 
> Also what is the kick force of a normal human and a kickboxer/karate expert in PSI? I assume it is MUCH higher than the punch considering our legs are more than 3 times stronger than our arms.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


I don't remember the numbers, but I do remember working some adjusting (crack-backing) skills on strike plates to measure impule force. Several of us played with whacking the things, and oddly, punches typically registered higher PSI. We think it had to do with the speed of the bodypart at time of impact, and not as much to do with the weight of the part, or the depth of the force (legs bigger, take more energy to get moving, and hence press deeper into the target before dispersing their force?). We had guys there from different MA backgrounds, too. Was interesting. Fun to play with kime, getting immediate numerical feedback from minute changes in approach.

D


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## KenpoTex

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I don't remember the numbers, but I do remember working some adjusting (crack-backing) skills on strike plates to measure impule force. Several of us played with whacking the things, and oddly, punches typically registered higher PSI. We think it had to do with the speed of the bodypart at time of impact, and not as much to do with the weight of the part, or the depth of the force (legs bigger, take more energy to get moving, and hence press deeper into the target before dispersing their force?). We had guys there from different MA backgrounds, too. Was interesting. Fun to play with kime, getting immediate numerical feedback from minute changes in approach.
> 
> D


Another reason that punches might register higher would be that you're making contact with a weapon that has a smaller surface area...the ol' hammer and nail idea.


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## Firona

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Another reason that punches might register higher would be that you're making contact with a weapon that has a smaller surface area...the ol' hammer and nail idea.


Exactly what I was thinking. A good thing to remember, because of this, is to strike only with your heal when you kick. That should get the old PSI up there.


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## Chrono

Ok, I'm a little slow with this. What's PSI?


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## WLMantisKid

Pounds per Square Inch

As in, per square inch of contact area, how many pounds of force are behind it.


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## Chrono

Thanks. That's probably, like, the sixth time I've asked someone that. I can never seem to remember it.


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## DeLamar.J

A vector is a straight line from point A to point B, such as the line your fist travels when moving from your hip to an opponent's chin. Any deviation from the straight line will result in a loss of power.

Displacement is how far the fist is displaced from the hip to the chin along a vector. 

Distance is how far the fist actually travels during the punch, which includes any stray movements from the vector and its return travel back to the hip.

Speed of the fist is measured using the distance it moves, which includes any extraneous movements away from the vector. Velocity is measured using displacement of the fist, which only uses travel along the vector and in only one direction.

Velocity of the fist = displacement of the fist  / time required to complete the displacement

Acceleration of the fist  = change in velocity of the fist / time required to achieve the final velocity.

Force of the fist = mass of the fist (including arm and some of torso) x acceleration of the fist. As it applies to the punch, force is of no concern if it misses the chin. If it strikes the chin, then an important consideration is the amount of pressure the fist applies to the chin.

Pressure of the punch = force of the fist / striking area of the fist. Thus the smaller the striking area of the fist, such as the first two knuckles versus the entire front of the fist, the greater striking force.

Actually, the equation for force involves more than just mass and acceleration. The full equation is F=ma+cv+kx. This longer equation takes other variables into consideration, such as wind resistance, gravity, friction within joints, muscle tension, and energy lost through heat. This longer equation for force contains 6 parts: (mass x acceleration) + (velocity x displacement) + (damping x stiffness) 

Mass is basically the fist's weight. 
Acceleration is how quickly the fist increases in velocity. 
Velocity is how fast the fist is moving. 
Displacement is how far the fist moves. 
Damping accounts for force that is dissipated by flexible surfaces and structures contacting each other. Damping occurs when there is weakening in the structure of the punch. When the fist impacts the chin, skin, muscles, and joint collapse somewhat, which dampens, or reduces, the force of the punch. If the fist is covered in boxing glove, the striking force is reduced by dampening effect of the glove's padding. Some damping also occurs when the body oscillates. Since the body is mostly water, it oscillates when shaken by the reaction to the action of the punch. Damping is also caused by friction. Muscles generate heat by the friction of rubbing against each other, which uses up energy. Energy is also wasted by other types of friction, such as the arm rubbing against the body during a punch. 
Stiffness is how rigid the fist and arm are at impact. The stiffer the fist and arm are on impact, the greater the striking force. The hardness of the striking surface increases the force delivered because reaction force will not be absorbed, thus, the knuckles of the hand strike harder than the knife hand. 
Mass of the punch may be increased by using muscle tension to add the masses of the shoulder, torso, legs, and feet to the mass of the punching arm. Generally, speed decreases as effective mass increases, but, by using a sequential application of forces, such as arm, then shoulder, then hip snap, and then leg thrust, the fist is snapped out similar to a whip, without adding mass that may slow speed of the punch. Then, at moment of impact, the body tenses and adds the mass to the punch.

Focus is when a full-power, full-speed technique is aimed to terminate a point in space. Focus is not just terminating the technique at the point in space, it is also a simultaneous contracting of all muscles to add all the power and mass of the body to the technique. Maximum power occurs when all muscles of the body contract at impact. Since the impact force of a technique equals the mass times the acceleration of the attacking weapon, to reach maximum force, you must be loose and relaxed as a technique starts and progresses so you may achieve maximum acceleration, and then contract all the muscles to achieve maximum mass. Since the technique stops at the point of focus, maximum force of the technique occurs at a point just millimeters before the point of focus. After maximum power point, the fist is decelerating. Without the contraction, maximum power is not reached, therefore, if an opponent moves into a technique that was intended to stop just short of contact, the attacker can lessen the force of the impact by not contracting into the technique. When sparring, the point of focus is just short of the surface of the chin, so the opponent is not harmed. In an actual attack, the focus point is internal of the chin, so that fist is at maximum velocity when if strikes the surface of the chin and thus strikes with maximum force. 

Taking all this into consideration, which punches harder, a large person or a small person? The large person has bigger muscles and more mass, but it requires more muscle power to move the greater mass so acceleration and velocity of the punch is reduced. The smaller person has smaller muscles and less mass, but the acceleration and velocity of the punch is greater. This, striking pressures of the two punches may actually be equal. The striking force of a speeding bullet and speeding locomotive may be equal, but which would you rather be hit by?

A larger person has more reach, more mass to absorb blows, and more strength. The farther a punch travels, the more time it has to accelerate, so a larger person with longer arms may generate more power. However, it takes more time to cover the longer distance, which may give the smaller person time to avoid or block the punch. John Jerome, in his work The Sweet Spot in Time, states that large, muscular athletes are generally faster than smaller, thinner people when moving about. So, in general, a large person hits with more force than a small person.

The momentum of an object is its mass multiplied by its velocity. By adding up the momentum of all individual objects in a system, the system's total momentum can be calculated. In a "closed" system, the net momentum never changes. This is a useful fact when analyzing an impact, because we know that the total momentum of the system will be the same after the impact as it was before the impact, even though the momentum of its parts may have changed. Momentum is a "vector" quantity, which means that two equal masses moving in opposite directions with the same velocity have zero net momentum.

Energy takes many forms, such as the kinetic energy of a moving mass. Energy is a "scalar" quantity, which means that two equal masses moving at the same velocity have the same total kinetic energy, regardless of their direction of movement. The kinetic energy of an object is equal to half its mass times the square of its velocity.

Energy, like momentum, is always conserved. But, sometimes it changes from kinetic energy, which is easily observed by measuring velocities and masses, to other forms that are harder to measure, most notably heat. The process of changing kinetic energy to heat is usually damaging to the material being heated. If the material is human tissue, it can be crushed, torn, or broken by the conversion of kinetic energy to heat. If the material is wood, it will break. A process that slowly or gradually converts kinetic energy to heat is usually called friction. A process that suddenly converts kinetic energy to heat is called an inelastic collision.

Example 1: When billiard balls collide at normal speeds they suffer no measurable damage because their collisions are almost perfectly elastic. All collisions conserve momentum, but only elastic ones conserve kinetic energy. So, if one ball with a certain velocity strikes a stationary ball on-center, it will transfer all of it's momentum and kinetic energy to the stationary ball, stop, and cause the other ball to move away at the same velocity as the striking ball. If a perfectly elastic Taekwondo student struck a perfectly elastic target, the target would fly off undamaged, but with lots of kinetic energy, perhaps sustaining damage when it hits the floor. 

Example 2: If, instead of hard balls, we use balls made of soft clay, then, when one ball strikes a stationary ball, both balls will mush together and move away with half the velocity of the striking ball. The kinetic energy before the collision is MV2/2. The kinetic energy after the collision is MV2/4. Half of the kinetic energy has gone into damaging the balls. Since both balls are equally damaged, each ball got damaged in the amount MV2/8.

Example 3: If a hard ball strikes a stationary clay ball, only the clay ball will be damaged. Therefore all of the lost kinetic energy MV2/4 went into damaging the clay ball.

Example 4: If a clay ball strikes an anchored hard ball, all the momentum of the clay ball will be transferred to the earth, and all of its kinetic energy MV2/2 will be expended in damaging the clay ball. This is twice the damage of example 3, and four times the per-ball damage of example 2.

So, as a Taekwondo student, you should be as elastic as possible as protection against damage. Proper focus unites the bones, muscles, tendons, and ligaments into a structure that is better able to distribute forces elastically (non-destructively), such as pre-stressed concrete does in buildings. It also means that an onrushing opponent who is impaled on a well-rooted reverse punch will sustain more damage than a stationary opponent. The effect of having a firm stance is most important when the opponent is stepping toward you, therefore, your best strategy for causing damage is to wait for the opponent to step toward you with an attack, deflect the attack, and then use a well-rooted reverse counter punch. Colliding elastically does not transfer any kinetic energy, so it should be be avoided. An inelastic collision with the target transfers kinetic energy that damages the target rather than your striking limb. You want your victim to be damaged, not pushed backward. To cause maximum damage to an opponent, targets should be chosen for their inability to respond elastically. The ability of a target to respond elastically depends on its structure, the speed of the impact, and the area of impact pressure.

All tissues have a range of pressures over which they are capable of responding elastically. The transition from elastic response to inelastic response is called "yielding." As pressure builds in a collision between two objects, both objects are initially elastic. A striker strives to have a larger elastic domain than the target. Once the target yields, the pressure between the two objects stops increasing and starts decreasing. When we consider momentum rather than pressure, the speed at which your technique travels has a greater effect upon the collision than the mass of the technique. Therefore, maximize speed to maximize damage . If purpose of a technique is to break bone, then use a high velocity impact with a small target area. If purpose of a technique is to cause internal damage, then use a technique that will  transfer momentum.


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## Flatlander

Excellent post.  The true beauty of physics brings a tear to my eye.


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## Chrono

Perhaps it may be a good idea for all serious martial artists to take physics.


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## Kane

Good post DeLamar.J, but;

what would be the force in PSI of a fighter's punch and kick?

Afterward I wanted to ask what that would be in pounds pressure and how to convert.

Thanks.


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## DeLamar.J

You would need a machine to measure that. But you could probly figure out the average PSI of a person by there height and weight. But that still wouldnt be totaly accurate because someone with better technique can hit harder than someone two times there size.


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## grb

Kane said:


> Does anyone know the average punch of a normal human and an average boxer/karate expert in PSI?
> 
> Also what is the kick force of a normal human and a kickboxer/karate expert in PSI? I assume it is MUCH higher than the punch considering our legs are more than 3 times stronger than our arms.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


 I am interested to see these questions, as I have designed a piece of equipment (patent Pending) that can tell you. Basicly, I call it PunchO.. It would be fixed to a wall, A device of about 15" square, with a circular pad in the middle. When you punch the pad,, a digital display tells you the force in PSI. I would be interested in some feed back, ie: would people buy it ?


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## jks9199

grb said:


> I am interested to see these questions, as I have designed a piece of equipment (patent Pending) that can tell you. Basicly, I call it PunchO.. It would be fixed to a wall, A device of about 15" square, with a circular pad in the middle. When you punch the pad,, a digital display tells you the force in PSI. I would be interested in some feed back, ie: would people buy it ?


Well, since something very similar has been on the market for several years...  It'd probably sell.  But the question to me would be can you produce it and market it?

Here's one: Herman Interactive Trainer


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## kwaichang

Kane said:


> Does anyone know the average punch of a normal human and an average boxer/karate expert in PSI?
> 
> Also what is the kick force of a normal human and a kickboxer/karate expert in PSI? I assume it is MUCH higher than the punch considering our legs are more than 3 times stronger than our arms.
> Thanks


Remember Stallones movie with the Russian who could punch w/2000 psi?  
Well the DSC channel recently had an hour show dedicated to scientifically measuring all things in mixed martial arts; punching, kicking, etc.


 Chuck "The Iceman" Liddell was measured, straddling an opponent, with a 2400 psi punch.
As for kicking, penetration was the important measure and again he penetrated about 41/2", more than a severe car crash.
Hope this helps.


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## kwaichang

P.S. you only need about 15 psi in a kick to break a knee cap and most women can develop 80 psi for that.


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## FearlessFreep

kwaichang said:


> P.S. you only need about 15 psi in a kick to break a knee cap and most women can develop 80 psi for that.



I've heard it only takes 4PSI upward to rip an ear off...


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## kwaichang

FearlessFreep said:


> I've heard it only takes 4PSI upward to rip an ear off...


 
I really don't know but then people can and do continue a fight without an ear.  It's much more difficult to sustain oneself without the use of a leg.


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## TheOriginalName

Some interesting discussion here.....

As an engineer i'm relatively good at physics and it always blows my mind when you can look at a technique and break it down to understand the bodies motion and the physical principles.....

When you get a chance go to Youtube and look up Fight Science (would post a link but can't access it from work - doh!!). Basically they take a heap of MAist and get them to do certain techniques on a crash test dummy - the results are amazing. 

And to those budding analysist out there - when it comes to any technique that involves rotation don't forget your circular motion stuff (particularly for looking at kicks).


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## shihansmurf

I measure my kicking and punching power in the agonized tears of my enemies :wink1: Heh, heh, heh...

Seriously, interesting topic. 

I seem to remember a few years ago reading in Black Belt Magazine about these electronic devices that one could attach to a punching bag or makiwara. I don't recall ever hitting one but if they work, and frankly I'm not really sure what valid and measureable standard we can use for hitting power, given that neither PSI, newton meters, or joules are really applicable in isolation, it would be interesting to use as a developmental tool.

Mark


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## Andrew Green

shihansmurf said:


> I measure my kicking and punching power in the agonized tears of my enemies :wink1: Heh, heh, heh...
> 
> Seriously, interesting topic.
> 
> I seem to remember a few years ago reading in Black Belt Magazine about these electronic devices that one could attach to a punching bag or makiwara. I don't recall ever hitting one but if they work, and frankly I'm not really sure what valid and measureable standard we can use for hitting power, given that neither PSI, newton meters, or joules are really applicable in isolation, it would be interesting to use as a developmental tool.
> 
> Mark



Force should be pretty easy to measure, but its only a piece of the puzzle.

Hitting a stationery target is one thing, actually hurting a person is another.

It's not just a "targets don't hit back" deal, that is part of it, but not all of it.

Put one of those force measures against something solid and hit it, you'll get one reading.  Hang it from the ceiling with as little weight on it as you can and you will get a much smaller number.

A lot of "power" in strikes comes from timing and setups, getting the person to come into it, or not see it coming in a way that their body can react to it hitting them well. 

I can through the exact same punch, with the exact same mechanics and motion, but depending on what my opponent is doing and how he reacts to it, it could land and KO him, or land and do very little.

Raw power is important, but focusing on it, like focusing on any other single aspect is a misleading thing.


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## shihansmurf

Andrew Green said:


> Raw power is important, but focusing on it, like focusing on any other single aspect is a misleading thing.



True, however if we were to be able to accurately measure impact power in some objective way it would be helpful.We could actually have some objective standard to work with in helping our students hit harder.

If, say, we were to rate it on foot pounds and the student hits at 40 foot pounds at green belt, then one of the promotion requirements would be to increase power by 10%. While, obviously it wouldn't be the only requirement it would be an interesting option to have.

Mark

Caveat #1: I actually have no idea how hard a person can hit in foot pounds. I just pulled that 40 ft.lb. number out of my rear end.

Caveat #2: If the above seems disjointed I apologize as I am rather high on cold medicine and am having trouble thinking cogently. Please feel free to disregard as the quasi-lucid ramblings of a medicated mind.


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## el gato

I have been very interested in this latley. I agree with thought many have said that yes the force you hit on a wall hug item is not the same as the force when hitting someone moving, but I still think it could be a fun tool. Some one said it already exsits if it does can some one post info on it. Or if anyone has ideas on how to make one I would like that as well.

They used something like this in the Mythbusters to see the force of their puch for a few myths, and by the commercials it looks like they are getting it out for more MA myths this seison.


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## kwaichang

Bruce Lee said it best:  "boards don't hit back".


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## Deaf Smith

I kind of wonder...

If you got a car tire innertube, inflated it to it's normal PSI, had a tire guage attached, and then punched or kicked it. Might see the guage show the increase, then subtract the beginning value.

I bet it takes two people though. One to do the kick/punch and the othere with the tire guage hooked to the innertube.

Might try it first on a lawnmower innertube. 

Deaf


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## kwaichang

check your medical insurance first..........you'll need it.


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## el gato

kwaichang said:


> Bruce Lee said it best: "boards don't hit back".


 

I think we all understand the fact that just because you can break a board does not make you all that... etc... but I would hope we can still see value in being able to quantify power, and improvment in that power.


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## kwaichang

To some it needs to be made clearer than to others, especially students just starting out.


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## kwaichang

el gato said:


> I think we all understand the fact that just because you can break a board does not make you all that... etc... but I would hope we can still see value in being able to quantify power, and improvment in that power.


 
:angel:Some do not understand that, especially those starting out.  Hitting inner tubes and walls and doors isn't the same.:uhyeah:


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## karate

> if we were to be able to accurately measure impact power in some  objective way



This is one (personal computer software to measure a punch) 






http://knockouter.com


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## Blade96

Really old thread lol

But I must respond because i think my point has some validity

Does it matter how hard someone can punch/kick? I kick and punch hard, used to and still do. Until my BB's pointed out that its not really ABOUT punching the hardest you can punch. The point is developing control.


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## dancingalone

Blade96 said:


> Does it matter how hard someone can punch/kick? I kick and punch hard, used to and still do. Until my BB's pointed out that its not really ABOUT punching the hardest you can punch. The point is developing control.



Power is a primary concern in my practice and instruction.  An often neglected point is that even if you don't land a shot perfectly (control) if you have sufficient power mechanics, the blow can still be a fight-ending one.  Many don't focus sufficiently on it in my opinion because the methods of gaining power are painful and arduous:  hand conditioning, physical conditioning, endless repetitions with makiwara, etc.


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## jks9199

Blade96 said:


> Really old thread lol
> 
> But I must respond because i think my point has some validity
> 
> Does it matter how hard someone can punch/kick? I kick and punch hard, used to and still do. Until my BB's pointed out that its not really ABOUT punching the hardest you can punch. The point is developing control.


What is your purpose in training?  If you're training for personal development and self-perfection, then your training is all about control.

If you're training for self-defense, your training must address power generation and application, the realities of a violent encounter, and then control both in what you do, and what level of force you use.  A perfectly controlled strike, with no power applied to the attacker, is not likely to be of use in a violent encounter.

Most of us balance all of these concerns in our training.  I aim to be able to control what I do -- but also to be able to really deliver.


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## ATC

jks9199 said:


> What is your purpose in training? If you're training for personal development and self-perfection, then your training is all about control.
> 
> If you're training for self-defense, your training must address power generation and application, the realities of a violent encounter, and then control both in what you do, and what level of force you use. A perfectly controlled strike, with no power applied to the attacker, is not likely to be of use in a violent encounter.
> 
> Most of us balance all of these concerns in our training. I aim to be able to control what I do -- but also to be able to really deliver.


If you are training to develop control then power is the by product of that type of training.

If you are only trying to develop power without control then you will never develop your full potential of power.

Most people that only work on power do more pushing than anythng else. Yes they may hit hard but not as hard as they could if relaxed and in control.

I have been hit by 250+ pounds guys and none of them hit me harder than a 135 pound person. The only way to explain the differenc is that the 135 pound guy hit me inside my body and everything hurt from the spot he hit (chest) to my head and even stomach area and my back. The bigger guys moved me with there weight (push power) and yes it hurt a little 
(only where impact area was) but did not stop or put me down.

I now understand this and I can tell you that all my student and fellow black belts say I hit harder than people larger than me. Not because I work on power but because I work on control.

The other thing I can say is that if you get into a situation where you are evenly matched or you may even be slightly better, you better have control or all your tense power swings will tire you out faster than anything and you will find yourself on the losing end of such encounter. Well only if you opponent is under control. Power is nice but when understood. Power out of control will fade fast.


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## dancingalone

ATC said:


> Most people that only work on power do more pushing than anythng else. Yes they may hit hard but not as hard as they could if relaxed and in control.



Only if they're not getting the correct feedback from their drills.  I don't let my students move onto a heavy bag for precisely this reason unless they have sufficient experience and proficiency using a makiwara first to avoid pushing.

There are many components to effective striking.  Relaxation as you mentioned is one of them, but there are other factors and methods you can train to augment the kinetic chain of power.  I also teach hip rotation AND vibration, grounding, hand conditioning, bodily momentum, and bodily snap.  

I believe you should actually focus on power generation first and then control and sensitivity is attained over time and practice.  This is the approach Andre Agassi took in tennis - his first coach, his dad, told the young boy to work on swinging out first and then the placement would follow later.  Worked well with Agassi and I believe it can work well in martial arts.

I'm not a big fan of parlor tricks, but I can do that punch demo with the telephone book where someone holds a big Yellow Pages to their stomach as a shield and lets you punch them.  People always downgrade the straight karate thrust punch since it does not look impressive in the air unlike some other punches from say boxing, but I can make a believer out of them.



> I have been hit by 250+ pounds guys and none of them hit me harder than a  135 pound person. The only way to explain the differenc is that the 135  pound guy hit me inside my body and everything hurt from the spot he  hit (chest) to my head and even stomach area and my back. The bigger  guys moved me with there weight (push power) and yes it hurt a little (only where impact area was) but did not stop or put me down.



Sounds like the smaller guy had it going then.  Some people call that type of power 'snap'.  Some Okinawan karate styles describe it as 'chinkuchi' or ki striking.  As I understand it, it's simply a combination of all those striking elements I mention above.  Obviously some manifest the speed and relaxation aspects more, particularly if they are smaller and can move quicker.  The ideal ratio is different for everyone, but the goal is to move whatever mass you possess at the optimum rate of speed while having sufficient weapon density/concentration and strength to punch THROUGH the target with hopefully some type of rotational force.


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## ATC

dancingalone said:


> Only if they're not getting the correct feedback from their drills. I don't let my students move onto a heavy bag for precisely this reason unless they have sufficient experience and proficiency using a makiwara first to avoid pushing.
> 
> There are many components to effective striking. Relaxation as you mentioned is one of them, but there are other factors and methods you can train to augment the kinetic chain of power. I also teach hip rotation AND vibration, grounding, hand conditioning, bodily momentum, and bodily snap.
> 
> I believe you should actually focus on power generation first and then control and sensitivity is attained over time and practice. This is the approach Andre Agassi took in tennis - his first coach, his dad, told the young boy to work on swinging out first and then the placement would follow later. Worked well with Agassi and I believe it can work well in martial arts.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of parlor tricks, but I can do that punch demo with the telephone book where someone holds a big Yellow Pages to their stomach as a shield and lets you punch them. People always downgrade the straight karate thrust punch since it does not look impressive in the air unlike some other punches from say boxing, but I can make a believer out of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like the smaller guy had it going then. Some people call that type of power 'snap'. Some Okinawan karate styles describe it as 'chinkuchi' or ki striking. As I understand it, it's simply a combination of all those striking elements I mention above. Obviously some manifest the speed and relaxation aspects more, particularly if they are smaller and can move quicker. The ideal ratio is different for everyone, but the goal is to move whatever mass you possess at the optimum rate of speed while having sufficient weapon density/concentration and strength to punch THROUGH the target with hopefully some type of rotational force.


You hit on all the same points that I would as well. As you clearly stated there is much to have what I call true power behind your strikes. Many fail to see this.

Yes teaching power is the first step but to many focus only on this and fail at all the other detail that would take their power to the next level. That is what I was trying to point out. Power without control training really does not get you power.

It may be that the word control is not being taken in the same context that I am thinking of when control is said. Not by you but by other.


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## Touch Of Death

ATC said:


> You hit on all the same points that I would as well. As you clearly stated there is much to have what I call true power behind your strikes. Many fail to see this.
> 
> Yes teaching power is the first step but to many focus only on this and fail at all the other detail that would take their power to the next level. That is what I was trying to point out. Power without control training really does not get you power.
> 
> It may be that the word control is not being taken in the same context that I am thinking of when control is said. Not by you but by other.


What sort of control are you refering to? 
Sean


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## Blade96

Wow, have i started a debate? lol 

btw I train for self defense, but not only for that. For personal development as well. In all areas. And also because I love the Shotokan way of life.

So, we train to deliver - but also to have control. My BB's taught me its not enough just to be able to strike a solid blow. Also must have control. This was taught to me very early - as in last year.


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## Touch Of Death

Blade96 said:


> Wow, have i started a debate? lol
> 
> btw I train for self defense, but not only for that. For personal development as well. In all areas. And also because I love the Shotokan way of life.
> 
> So, we train to deliver - but also to have control. My BB's taught me its not enough just to be able to strike a solid blow. Also must have control. This was taught to me very early - as in last year.


Showing control is also great for staying out of prison.:ultracool
sean


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## dancingalone

Blade96 said:


> So, we train to deliver - but also to have control. My BB's taught me its not enough just to be able to strike a solid blow. Also must have control. This was taught to me very early - as in last year.



<shrugs>  It's not mutually exclusive.  One develops both power and control AT THE SAME TIME.  

I just dislike the 'control over power' martial arts cliche since it seems to assume even the average martial artist will have Zen-like precision in the heat of a wild melee.  In my experience, most if not all black belts in the sundry systems have a good measure of control.  They can generally target something and hit it with a handful of hand or foot techniques.  They're great at low-high paddle drills.  However, a much lower percentage of these people can hit their target with EXPLOSIVE power, even when the target is unmoving.  To me that suggests a training paradigm emphasizing hard hitting might be called for.


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## Touch Of Death

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs> It's not mutually exclusive. One develops both power and control AT THE SAME TIME.
> 
> I just dislike the 'control over power' martial arts cliche since it seems to assume even the average martial artist will have Zen-like precision in the heat of a wild melee. In my experience, most if not all black belts in the sundry systems have a good measure of control. They can generally target something and hit it with a handful of hand or foot techniques. They're great at low-high paddle drills. However, a much few percentage of these people can hit their target with EXPLOSIVE power, even when the target is unmoving. To me that suggests a training paradigm emphasizing hard hitting might be called for.


I think hitting hard comes from controling the path of your weaopon, I think any given guy can hit really hard, but are they centered? 
Sean


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## ATC

Touch Of Death said:


> What sort of control are you refering to?
> Sean


The control of ones body. Understanding how it is all linked and how to get maximum explosiveness from it. Take the simple round house for example. Most do this kick by turning the shoulders first. It takes time and practice to push off the floor and turn the hips and shoulders at the same time for maximum power, speed, and explosiveness. Without that control you get a hard hit but not a powerful hit. You also become faster to the target and telegraph little to none until too late.

Just watch people when they kick, you will most always see a shoulder turn then the hips then the leg. A 3 step process that should look like 1. You will then start to see other bad control habits like the front foot taking a step or even just a pickup and turn before it is to pivot with the hips. I see this everyday and it take me pointing this out to just about every student. Even black belts.

This is the type of control I am talking about. Once you have it you will see your speed, power, and explosiveness start to increase.


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## Touch Of Death

ATC said:


> The control of ones body. Understanding how it is all linked and how to get maximum explosiveness from it. Take the simple round house for example. Most do this kick by turning the shoulders first. It takes time and practice to push off the floor and turn the hips and shoulders at the same time for maximum power, speed, and explosiveness. Without that control you get a hard hit but not a powerful hit. You also become faster to the target and telegraph little to none until too late.
> 
> Just watch people when they kick, you will most always see a shoulder turn then the hips then the leg. A 3 step process that should look like 1. You will then start to see other bad control habits like the front foot taking a step or even just a pickup and turn before it is to pivot with the hips. I see this everyday and it take me pointing this out to just about every student. Even black belts.
> 
> This is the type of control I am talking about. Once you have it you will see your speed, power, and explosiveness start to increase.


I understand, for us it should all look the same wheather you are punching or kicking.
Sean


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## ATC

Touch Of Death said:


> I understand, for us it should all look the same wheather you are punching or kicking.
> Sean


I agree


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## jks9199

ATC said:


> If you are training to develop control then power is the by product of that type of training.
> 
> If you are only trying to develop power without control then you will never develop your full potential of power.
> 
> Most people that only work on power do more pushing than anythng else. Yes they may hit hard but not as hard as they could if relaxed and in control.
> 
> I have been hit by 250+ pounds guys and none of them hit me harder than a 135 pound person. The only way to explain the differenc is that the 135 pound guy hit me inside my body and everything hurt from the spot he hit (chest) to my head and even stomach area and my back. The bigger guys moved me with there weight (push power) and yes it hurt a little
> (only where impact area was) but did not stop or put me down.
> 
> I now understand this and I can tell you that all my student and fellow black belts say I hit harder than people larger than me. Not because I work on power but because I work on control.
> 
> The other thing I can say is that if you get into a situation where you are evenly matched or you may even be slightly better, you better have control or all your tense power swings will tire you out faster than anything and you will find yourself on the losing end of such encounter. Well only if you opponent is under control. Power is nice but when understood. Power out of control will fade fast.


That's not control -- that's technique.  The two are not synonymous, though they are rarely developed to high levels independently.


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## Blade96

Touch Of Death said:


> Showing control is also great for staying out of prison.:ultracool
> sean



lmao. =]



dancingalone said:


> <shrugs>  It's not mutually exclusive.  One develops both power and control AT THE SAME TIME.
> 
> I just dislike the 'control over power' martial arts cliche since it seems to assume even the average martial artist will have Zen-like precision in the heat of a wild melee.  In my experience, most if not all black belts in the sundry systems have a good measure of control.  They can generally target something and hit it with a handful of hand or foot techniques.  They're great at low-high paddle drills.  However, a much lower percentage of these people can hit their target with EXPLOSIVE power, even when the target is unmoving.  To me that suggests a training paradigm emphasizing hard hitting might be called for.



Touche.

I take yer point. 

But what some other people said also makes sense. Like the one who used the mawashi geri as an example. without the control of the body you cannot develop full power.


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## ATC

jks9199 said:


> That's not control -- that's technique. The two are not synonymous, though they are rarely developed to high levels independently.


That may not be control to you, But to me if you have no control of your body and mind then you have no technique. Once you can control it all then any technique can be performed. I would say your view, *"to me"* is to simple. Once you have the type of control I am talking about you can deliver any technique with full speed, no power and not hurt anyone, or with full speed and any range of power to do whatever you want to anyone. Try that without technique and you have no control, and that is when we see people get hurt in the dojang. The two are indeed one and the same.

I had a student the other day not hit someone in the head with a kick when he had the perfect chance to. I asked him why did he not just take the foot to the head? He said that he would have taken the person out. I said just control it. He said I can't, once the leg is up it's just coming down with full force. Why? Bad technique, thus no control. You can't have one without the other.


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## dancingalone

Blade96 said:


> lmao. =]
> But what some other people said also makes sense. Like the one who used the mawashi geri as an example. without the control of the body you cannot develop full power.



I think we might need to define what control is.  Obviously we must be in command of our body to strike properly.  That includes understanding and being able to maximize speed and mass at the point of contact.

I think you might be substituting 'precision' for control.  Precision in martial arts is being able to deliver power at a predefined level to a specific contact point.  I submit that it is relatively easy to learn to hit a target with a minimal to moderate level of power.  Doing so just means less contraction of the muscles as you deliver the blow at perhaps a slower speed than you are capable of.  It is much more difficult to learn to engage all the correct muscle groups with the correct timing so that all the physical elements coalesce at the same delivery point, combining to produce knockout power.


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## MattJ

Thought I had posted this before, but I guess not. A lot of useful info in this thread here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=247555#Post247555


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## Touch Of Death

jks9199 said:


> That's not control -- that's technique. The two are not synonymous, though they are rarely developed to high levels independently.


While I agree that control is a regulation of force, depth of force (or dimensional stage of action), and target, Like most. Its obvious that control is a term that can also refer to technique. Its not that big of a stretch. Vocabulary changes from school to school.
Sean


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## jks9199

dancingalone said:


> I think we might need to define what control  is.  Obviously we must be in command of our body to strike properly.   That includes understanding and being able to maximize speed and mass at  the point of contact.
> 
> I think you might be substituting 'precision' for control.  Precision in  martial arts is being able to deliver power at a predefined level to a  specific contact point.  I submit that it is relatively easy to learn to  hit a target with a minimal to moderate level of power.  Doing so just  means less contraction of the muscles as you deliver the blow at perhaps  a slower speed than you are capable of.  It is much more difficult to  learn to engage all the correct muscle groups with the correct timing so  that all the physical elements coalesce at the same delivery point,  combining to produce knockout power.



Those are, perhaps, more useful definitions than simply saying "control."  After all, with proper control of the dynamics of space, and control over my body alignment, and control of the technique, I can deliver a controlled strike that does no damage, while allowing me to control the opponent and take them down in a controlled fall, landing gently... 

I think we're definitely running into a terminology clash here!


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## Blade96

well I dont have proper control or precision and full power...but I'm just a yellow belt


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## Touch Of Death

Blade96 said:


> well I dont have proper control or precision and full power...but I'm just a yellow belt


Knowing that is a plus.
sean


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## Blade96

Touch Of Death said:


> Knowing that is a plus.
> sean



Yea....but still made me very self conscious in class yesterday when i was the only one there my rank and all the rest is brown and black belts and I couldn't help comparing myself to them and saying to sensei "I am not good" 

was in a bad mood and as a result wound up saying to one of BB's who asked me to repeat something 'well i already know that' (for which I acted like a jerk and i'm going to personally apologize to him for)


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## Kyosanim

Kane said:


> Does anyone know the average punch of a normal human and an average boxer/karate expert in PSI?
> 
> Also what is the kick force of a normal human and a kickboxer/karate expert in PSI? I assume it is MUCH higher than the punch considering our legs are more than 3 times stronger than our arms.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



Look up fight science pilot on hulu. This will not be an average because they are all masters and professional fighters, but it will give you an idea of how high it can be. My former master once told us that he could generate 7000 psi with a kick but I doubt that is accurate as the muay thai knee strike is a bit lower than that in memory, and it increases its psi by reducing the targets ability to rock back. Kind of like hitting another car in your car vs a telephone pole. The phone pole does not move the car does. Thus doubling the impact force of the attack because more energy travels to the target when it can't move back words. I am no math wizz though so I would look it up, but I think that is how it works.


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## Kyosanim

Blade96 said:


> Yea....but still made me very self conscious in class yesterday when i was the only one there my rank and all the rest is brown and black belts and I couldn't help comparing myself to them and saying to sensei "I am not good"
> 
> was in a bad mood and as a result wound up saying to one of BB's who asked me to repeat something 'well i already know that' (for which I acted like a jerk and i'm going to personally apologize to him for)




We all go through that phase in the martial arts . The important thing is you learn from it. You are right at that level where you really want more but don't know how to achieve it, and you look around and see others that have it and become frustrated. First off relax you cannot compare yourself with brown and black belts they have way more time in than you do!!!!! Which means what? More practice and practice makes perfect. I suggest that you take a different perspective in your analysis of your skills. Instead of saying look at what I can't do say look at what I will do. My advice is to ask the black and brown belts if you can work out with them before class or something. You are very lucky or blessed or something to be put in a class where everyone is above you in skill and rank because that means every last one of them has something they can teach you!!! Don't be discouraged little yellow belt if you put your heart and soul into it greatness is just around the corner!!!!

Be warned though if you work out with black belts you are going to get knocked around a bit, and be frustrated a lot, but on the bright side you will learn faster working with them, and get to have that I did it I actually landed a blow on a black belt feel that will be very encouraging. When you apologize ask if he feels the same way when he looks at your sensei as I'm sure he does.


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## actionmanrandell

WLMantisKid said:


> Pounds per Square Inch
> 
> As in, per square inch of contact area, how many pounds of force are behind it.


 that is not true your wright about it being pounds per squire inch but 1 psi is not equal to 1 lb of force. psi is different type of measurement i watched a show called fight science where they measured one mans strike and it was around 25,000 psi which was equal to only a few hundred lbs of force


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## JackJack

DeLamar.J said:


> Therefore, maximize speed to maximize damage . If purpose of a technique is to break bone, then use a high velocity impact with a small target area. If purpose of a technique is to cause internal damage, then use a technique that will  transfer momentum.



I think this is best explained by following through to your target area.  If your target is internal, then follow through to it.  If the target is near the surface, "snap" it.

You are the first person I have heard explain it right, even if you did make it very complicated to follow   People keep asking how to measure the force of a punch.  What they don't understand is force (f = m * a) is the formula to measure the energy it took to get the object moving at that acceleration and speed.  That is how to measure the effects of a punch.  

To measure the effects of a punch, you need to use the kinetic energy (ke = 1/2 mass * velocity squared).  So you are very correct that speed is the biggest factor unless your target is deep inside.  If the target is deep inside, the ke will not reach the target unless you have the momentum to reach it and that needs mass behind it unless the impact area is so small, like a bullet and even then it can be a problem reaching the target (such as shooting into water).

Now if you can get your whole body behind a punch and only loose a little speed, then that is most effective.  Now if it's a rotational strike like the brazilan fighter in "Fight Science" (which by the way, they got it all wrong), then you have to use the rotational kinetic energy formula which is complex.

Why was "Fight Science" all wrong?  Simple, they were attempting to measure force which I stated above is a measurement of a totally different thing.  The formula for force is f = m * a (acceleration).  Now lets think of a truck that is on a highway going 50 mph and has been for a long time.  Not much acceleration there.  Now lets say the driver lets off of the gas pedal for 10 seconds before he hits something; the force is a negative number because the acceleration is negative, but I get what ever he hit didn't think the impact effect was a negative value.  You see, the formula for acceleration involves time.  A beginning time and an ending time.  That is irrelevant when it comes to impact.  What matters during impact is mass. speed and the base.  That's all.

One more issue.  Kinetic Energy is measured in Jules.  Jules can be converted to PSI or PSF or bunch of other values, but as you can see, the size of the impacting surface matters greatly like a bullet which focuses all of it's energy in a very small area.  If you took that same Jules and spread it out over the entire body, which is what a Kevlar vest does, then the effect of it is much less.  I say this because I keep reading that "you don't care about psi" which is totally wrong.

I hope Delamar and I have put to rest a lot of false information, especially that crap in the "Fight Science" video floating around.  Want to know which fighter has the most impact damage in that video, it's simple, look at the reaction of the bag.  The bag doesn't lie.  Every action has an equal opposite reaction.  You can also hear the difference, which was the Brazilian fighter.  Why?  Because even though he was a little slower, he had a LOT more mass behind his kicks.  Sure, speed is most important but when you can get your whole body behind it, you can afford to lose some speed.


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## Tez3

Welcome to MT JackJack and Actionmanrandall! Why don't you pop over to the Meet and Greet section and say hello, I promise you'll get a warm welcome and we'd love to hear about your styles/arts.


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## Bruno@MT

JackJack said:


> Why was "Fight Science" all wrong?  Simple, they were attempting to measure force which I stated above is a measurement of a totally different thing.  The formula for force is f = m * a (acceleration).  Now lets think of a truck that is on a highway going 50 mph and has been for a long time.  Not much acceleration there.  Now lets say the driver lets off of the gas pedal for 10 seconds before he hits something; the force is a negative number because the acceleration is negative, but I get what ever he hit didn't think the impact effect was a negative value.  You see, the formula for acceleration involves time.  A beginning time and an ending time.  That is irrelevant when it comes to impact.  What matters during impact is mass. speed and the base.  That's all..



I'm sorry Jack, but the above paragraph is ... just wrong.

F=m*a is indeed force, but the 'a' and 'm' you have to consider is the acceleration and mass of the object that's been hit. Whatever the truck has been doing in the seconds, hours, or years prior to the impact is irrelevant.



JackJack said:


> One more issue. Kinetic Energy is measured in Jules. Jules can be converted to PSI or PSF or bunch of other values, but as you can see, the size of the impacting surface matters greatly like a bullet which focuses all of it's energy in a very small area. If you took that same Jules and spread it out over the entire body, which is what a Kevlar vest does, then the effect of it is much less. I say this because I keep reading that "you don't care about psi" which is totally wrong.



No, it can't. Joules is energy. Pressure is excertion of force. They are completely different things.

And you are also wrong in your conclusion. Let's consider a strike to the head, bareknuckle (small area) or with large boxing gloves. The smaller the target, the more localized damage. But the impact on the brain will be identical to the hit that was done with the gloves. Impact energy is transferred to the brain via the skull. How that energy got delivered to the skull (wide or small area) is irrelevant.

It is true that for localized effects, the surface area IS important, but it has nothing to do with pressure. Just because pressure ALSO is related to surface area does not mean that everything in which surface area plays a part is caused by pressure.


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## JackJack

Bruno@MT said:


> F=m*a is indeed force, but the 'a' and 'm' you have to consider is the acceleration and mass of the object that's been hit. Whatever the truck has been doing in the seconds, hours, or years prior to the impact is irrelevant.



true...very true.  What the truck was doing is irrelevant and that is why the formula for force is irrelevant as if you look up the formula for acceleration, time is a variable.  If you say time is not a factor, then you can't use the formula.




Bruno@MT said:


> No, it can't. Joules is energy. Pressure is excertion of force. They are completely different things.



Try looking up formulas to convert Joules to ____.  You will see that 1 Joule = 8.89.... PSI.




Bruno@MT said:


> And you are also wrong in your conclusion. Let's consider a strike to the head, bareknuckle (small area) or with large boxing gloves. The smaller the target, the more localized damage. But the impact on the brain will be identical to the hit that was done with the gloves. Impact energy is transferred to the brain via the skull. How that energy got delivered to the skull (wide or small area) is irrelevant.



The kinetic energy is the same and eventually, the same amount of energy is delivered to the brain, but the brain was not the impact area.  The impact area may have been the whole side of the head or just the temple, all depending on the type of strike.


I am giving you straight simple physics.  If you don't believe the physics, go look up the formulas yourself and study up on what they mean.


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## Bruno@MT

JackJack said:


> Try looking up formulas to convert Joules to ____.  You will see that 1 Joule = 8.89.... PSI.



No it is not.
Joules is energy.
PSI is pressure.

They are 2 different things and cannot be converted to one another without putting them in a context where that makes sense, and which highly depends on parameters.

See here for possible direct conversions.
http://www.fact-index.com/j/jo/joule.html
1 joule can be converted to many other measures of energy. There is not a single conversion to pressure.

The only way to convert joules to psi is by doing an impact calculation, taking into account mass, density, structure and other parameters to calculate how much pressure is created for how long, to cause which deformation.

Blindly saying that x joules is y PSI is just rubbish.



JackJack said:


> I am giving you straight simple physics.  If you don't believe the physics, go look up the formulas yourself and study up on what they mean.



I have a masters degree in engineering.
I know exactly what I am saying here. I very much doubt that you do. If you do, then please show me those straight simple physics that you are talking about.


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## Bruno@MT

But in case that is too complex, I'll explain it with a simple example.
You know about air friction, right? If we discount gravity for a moment, suppose you shoot a bullet in the air. The energy of that bullet is n joules.

Air friction exerts a pressure on the bullet, making it slow down.
This air friction is very, very low, or the bullet would stop quickly. Instead, the bullet takes a long time to decelerate because not much pressure is generated. Now shoot the buller in water. Higher friction coefficient means the bullet stops rapidly. Much pressure is generated.

So you see a direct conversion from joules to pressure is impossible.
And if we now add in surface area, shape of the objects, structure, elasticity and plasticity of the target AND the bullet, it becomes a very complex calculation to see how much pressure is generated at any given moment.


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## seasoned

Tez3 said:


> Welcome to MT JackJack and Actionmanrandall! Why don't you pop over to the Meet and Greet section and say hello, I promise you'll get a warm welcome and we'd love to hear about your styles/arts.


Ditto that, and as Tez3 has said, stop over.


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## geezer

Bruno@MT said:


> ...So you see a direct conversion from joules to pressure is impossible. And if we now add in surface area, shape of the objects, structure, elasticity and plasticity of the target AND the bullet, it becomes a very complex calculation to see how much pressure is generated at any given moment.



So complex to calculate, yet so easy to _feel_... especially if you are on the receiving end! That's where a good trainer holding focus mitts, a kicking shield, Thai pads and the like can be so much more helpful than a calculator!


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## JackJack

Bruno@MT said:


> I have a masters degree in engineering.



Then you need to stop being so argumentative.  If you truly have a masters degree, you would know that the formulas are meant for a perfect environment....aka, no gravity, no friction, no air, and 100% efficiency conversion of energy to work.  So your argument of friction is needless.

http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_converter/energy.html

Does this environment exist, no, it doesn't, but that is the physics.  However, I think you are getting way too wrapped up into technicalities to see the real point.  The real point is, you can't measure the effects of an impact using the force formula.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_law_of_universal_gravitation

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_formula_for_force
 Force = Mass * Acceleration

Force is the pull or push of an object, not the effect of objects colliding.  Pressure is created when objects collide.  That pressure is created by energy....kinetic energy created by mass and speed (1/2 m * V squared).

Now lets take that truck again.  I am in a truck sitting at a stop light.  The light turns green and I slam on the gas.  I am accelerating very fast, but in just 20 feet I run into a wall say at 20 mph.  The truck will have a pretty dented in bumper but that's about it.  Now lets say I get out of the truck and get into another truck of same model and I start driving on the highway and then decide I want to run into a wall again going at 50 mph.  I know, I'm pretty stupid huh...but on with the point.  I'm not accelerating much if any at all, but I do hit the wall at 50 mph.  That truck is going to be demolished and I am going to be dead and the wall is going to be damaged.

Now, because we live on earth where there is gravity, the truck had to be constantly provided power to keep the speed at 50 mph, but according to the formula for acceleration, the acceleration was zero so the force "would" have been zero if there wasn't gravity and friction, but because there are those variables, a force (the engine) had to be applied to keep it going.  As for the impact effect, well, the kinetic energy applied in the second accident was way more than the first.

Lets take the KE formula and given the truck weights 5,000 pounds.

ke = 1/2 kg * m/s squared

5 000 lb, lbs = 2,267.96185 kilogram

so accident #1:  

20 mile/hour (mph) = 8.9408 meter/second

90648.05904622899 =  1/2 (2267.96185) * (8.9408) squared

90648.05904622899 = 802,302.92712012 psi


#2
50 mile/hour (mph) = 22.352 meter/second

566550.3690389312 = 1/2 (2267.96185) * (22.352) squared

566,550.3690389312 joules= 3,698,426.6957275 psi


As you can see, there is a big difference.  The truck with no acceleration but traveling at 50 mph creates 6.25 time more kinetic energy then the truck that is accelerating very fast but only traveling 20 mph.  Now you can agrue all kind of techicalities on the conversion from joules to psi all you want, but take it up with the makers of the site who I get the conversion from (http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_converter/energy.html), but I think you can clearly understand with this example the flaws in using the force formula to determine the effects of two objects colliding.


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## JackJack

Now my question to everybody here is, is DeLamar (see page one) and I the only ones who understand this, or are you just being quiet?


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## JackJack

Sorry...I left something out.

I gave the environmental factors, gravity and friction, in dealing with the force formula, but not for the kinetic formula.  Well, there isn't much the environment can effect during impact, of the amount of energy created, however, there are variables that effect the direction of the energy/psi.  This is where base, material and all those other things my commenter was so kind in pointing out.  Lets look at the accident #2.  The wall was solid and very strong, so it had much less damage then the truck, so most of the energy was redirected back into the truck as it could adsorb it better.  The same KE/pressure was created, but where it went was effected by those parameters.

This is very important in martial arts and why some styles preach a solid base.  It is also why Bruce Lee preached muscle tension throughout the body right at impact.  You are not supposed to have muscle tension in delivery of the strike because that slows down the strike, but having muscle tension during impact is a resistance against your body absorbing the pressure from the impact.  So, if you have a solid base and solid body during impact, the pressure should be delivered towards your opponent.

I think we can all at least agree on this.


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## Bruno@MT

JackJack said:


> Then you need to stop being so argumentative.  If you truly have a masters degree, you would know that the formulas are meant for a perfect environment....aka, no gravity, no friction, no air, and 100% efficiency conversion of energy to work.  So your argument of friction is needless..



I used that argument to point out that you cannot directly convert energy to pressure.
Pressure can be the result of an energy impact, via various calculations. But they are 2 different things, whereas in your previous posts you said that you can directly convert one to another.

this is not about me being argumentative but about you saying things which are incorrect, and to which I respond. For example, here you say this:


> What they don't understand is force (f = m * a) is the formula to measure the energy it took to get the object moving at that acceleration and speed



Where you imply that force IS energy, which is definitely not correct. Force multiplied by the distance over which it is exerted is energy (E = F * d). Force itself IS NOT energy. If you don't want people to be argumentative over such things, then just don't say them, and don't build an argument around them or try to gain credibility by sounding scientific.


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## mook jong man




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## Bruno@MT

Yeah back when I was in college and a theoretical physics nerd, the ladies were just swarming all over me....
Ok ok. They were swarming away from me... but DEFINITELY swarming I say...
:rofl:


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## JackJack

You are correct Bruno, energy is not pressure and I made a BIG mistake in what I was saying earlier.  Kinetic energy is not created during impact.  Energy is never created, only transferred.  A moving object, at any point in time, will have X amount of kinetic energy.  That energy is transferred to pressure during impact.

However, that mistake is not as big as using the wrong formula (force) to determine the amount of pressure like that video was making.  I felt insulted by watching that video.  I, who have about an hour's worth of studying physics seemed to know more about it then they did but yet they were calling there video science.  How can they call it science when they have absolutely no idea of the basics of physics?

Another point I should have made about that video is that they were giving the results of the kicks in pounds.  Even the force formula calculation gives off Joules, not pounds, so they didn't even understand the formula for force, let alone knowing it was the wrong formula.


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## Bruno@MT

No problem.


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