# Leave your kids at home....



## MBuzzy (Oct 10, 2009)

Ok, bit of a rant here....

I just went to a performance of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture (full piece), plus his March Miniture, Piano Concerto, and Serenade for Strings.  4 incredible pieces of music, VERY talented Symphony.  Ticket prices reflected that of course.

I also spent the entire 2 hours with a kid kicking my seat, fidgeting (squeaking his seat), moving around, talking loudly, complaining about being too tired, too thirsty, too hungry, bored, etc etc etc.  Of course, his parents did little to nothing, even after asked to please keep him under control and at least keep him from continually kicking my wife and my seats.  

I fully understand and support the idea of bringing culture into small children's lives.  I fully intend to educate my child in the arts, expose him to great classical music and composers, etc.  But I also intend to KEEP HIM AT HOME, until he is old and mature enough to sit quietly through a 2 hour concert and not bother those around him.  

Parents, please....either practice it and teach the kid to behave during expensive cultural events, or keep them at home.  There will be time when they are older.


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## girlbug2 (Oct 11, 2009)

Yes, I've been there too so to speak.

It's so hard to know how your kids will react in a new situation OTOH. A two hour movie, no problem for my kids (ages 11 and 7). But who knows how they'll react to a two hour concert, until some day we try it and find out. If it turns out they can't handle it well, I'll take them to the lobby.


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 11, 2009)

More so than age, I think it depends on the maturity of the kid(s). I've seen a 7 year old that sat attentively during a performance and observed older children, perhaps around 10-12, acting like they were in romper room. 

Oh...and if I'm paying more than $50 for my meal...you kids probably don't belong in that restaraunt. 

Exactly how did you "ask"? Perhaps you should work on your delivery. LOL :angel:


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## elder999 (Oct 11, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> I also spent the entire 2 hours with a kid kicking my seat, fidgeting (squeaking his seat), moving around, talking loudly, complaining about being too tired, too thirsty, too hungry, bored, etc etc etc. Of course, his parents did little to nothing, even after asked to please keep him under control and at least keep him from continually kicking my wife and my seats.




Been there. Never understood it, myself.





MBuzzy said:


> Parents, please....*either practice it and teach the kid to behave during expensive cultural events*, or keep them at home. There will be time when they are older.


 
That there's the key: my parents taught me how to behave, and to appreciate such things, and I taught my kids. You don't say how old the kid was, but if he was old enough to kick your seats, he was probablty old enough to be there. Listening to the music and teaching its appreciation at home is where it begins-taking them to smaller, more controlled venues is the next step, letting them know the expecations around behavior. 

Fer chrissakes, I saw _The Magic Flute_ for the first time when I was *5*-I was spellbound-didn't say a damn thing or move a muscle.


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## Ken Morgan (Oct 11, 2009)

elder999 said:


> [/size]
> 
> That there's the key: my parents taught me how to behave, and to appreciate such things, and I taught my kids.


 


Moi aussi

Kids will be kids. Doesnt matter if its in a good restaurant, a movie theatre, a McDonalds, or where have you. It is the *parents responsibility* to curtail the Childs inappropriate behaviour. If your child is disturbing others, it is you responsibility to get them to stop, if they will not stop, it is your responsibility to remove them from the situation.


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## Andy Moynihan (Oct 11, 2009)

Well that's the problem. You see here in America all effective means of discipline have been made illegal, and parents , especially this newest apology for a generation, think they have the right to bring their children everywhere at all hours and than no one has a right to complain.

Procreation should be banned, it'll make the coming end-of-the-world noise so much more seamless.


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## MBuzzy (Oct 11, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> Yes, I've been there too so to speak.
> 
> It's so hard to know how your kids will react in a new situation OTOH. A two hour movie, no problem for my kids (ages 11 and 7). But who knows how they'll react to a two hour concert, until some day we try it and find out. *If it turns out they can't handle it well, I'll take them to the lobby*.



Exactly as a responsible parent should!


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## MBuzzy (Oct 11, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Oh...and if I'm paying more than $50 for my meal...you kids probably don't belong in that restaraunt.
> 
> Exactly how did you "ask"? Perhaps you should work on your delivery. LOL :angel:



True - probably less swearing and screaming would be better next time (on my part).  I asked the father while the mother and kids were gone if he could please try to keep his child from kicking mine and my wife's chair.  Basically as respectfully as possible, so as not to come off as telling him how to raise his kid......since I can probably be thrown in jail for that too.

I would agree, I think that a matinee is ok for kids....but a formal 8pm showing of classical music for over $50/ticket isn't really the right place for a small child.


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## shesulsa (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't think all effective means of parenting have been made illegal. Logical and realistic consequences for their actions (within reason, of course), a stern voice and the natural propensity of intimidation through mystery can work quite well, but only if and when they are *employed.*  

Kids will be kids, and it IS up to parents to BE PARENTS.  Prepare the child in advance, attend a matinee if/when possible, and be prepared to leave early or take them to the bathroom when they act up.  

Now I see many parents shoving a Nintendo DS into their kids' laps to keep them quiet and occupied - or a cell phone.  :shrug:  I'm sorry, but ... **** that.  You aren't teaching your child a goddamn thing by doing that, you're only pacifying them and bribing their silence - which, btw, they are completely unconscious of giving you because it wasn't willingly given, rather bought and paid for.

You don't teach courtesy by pacifying them. You teach them courtesy through exposure, failure plus consequence and success plus intrinsic award.


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## elder999 (Oct 11, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> I would agree, I think that a matinee is ok for kids....but a formal 8pm showing of classical music for over $50/ticket isn't really the right place for a small child.


 
I'd say it depends on the child, and it depends upon how small-that little fellow who taught himself to play the piano would probably have done really well at 3, depending upon how well his parents had socialized him.....at least, he wouldn't have been _bored,_ of all things..


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## shesulsa (Oct 11, 2009)

The crux for parents here is that it's difficult to teach a child without some level of exposure, especially as an audience member - but that doesn't mean if they are generally unruly children they should be brought at all, for heaven's sake.

MBuzzy, it's a shame your night at the orchestra was ruined and a bigger shame the parents did nothing to quell the behavior of their children.


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## Tames D (Oct 11, 2009)

After your request to the father was ignored, your next complaint should have been to the management. Let them be the heavy,or return your money. And if they don't take care of it to your satisfaction, then I guess all bets are off 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## elder999 (Oct 11, 2009)

Tames D said:


> After your request to the father was ignored, your next complaint should have been to the management. Let them be the heavy,or return your money. And if they don't take care of it, then I guess all bets are off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Yes, if it's really that bad, it's why the ushers are there....


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## MBuzzy (Oct 11, 2009)

Tames D said:


> After your request to the father was ignored, your next complaint should have been to the management. Let them be the heavy,or return your money. And if they don't take care of it to your satisfaction, then I guess all bets are off
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was/is.  Of course, the ushers aren't authorized to do anything and the "customer serve" desk/ticket office will refer the issue to management and someone will be in communication with me.....

In other words, they have their money.  From me and from the people behind me.  I am sure that in their opinion, their responsibility to me is over, because that is what customer service has come to.  We'll see how they respond tomorrow morning when the normal office opens again.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 11, 2009)

A very interesting thread, *Buzzy*. 

I am heartened by the timbre of the replies within it too. It would seem that at least the section of the community that practise martial arts understand the necessity of discipline and consideration {odd that }.

Strangely it reminded me of the time I was flying from Calgary to Chicago and had some obnoxious brat kicking the back of my seat interminably. I got so angry that I honestly don't remember what I said and only recall that I got out of my seat and stood next to the goblins ... sorry, little angel's ... father's seat and exchanged a few words {blush}. The aircraft staff didn't say anything too me so I can't have been too out of line - maybe the English accent scored me a few points?

The moral is, if noone says anything then bad behaviour becomes normal behaviour to the detriment of the quality of life for everyone.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 11, 2009)

Duct tape is your friend.


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## Flea (Oct 11, 2009)

Bill, I've always liked the way you think.  :boing2:

I've ushered in may theaters over the years, and the overwhelming majority of situations I encountered involved _adults_ behaving like that.  Most theaters use volunteers for ushers (you've probably noticed that most ushers in fine arts houses are retirees?)  As such it's against theater policy for ushers to intervene in these cases as a matter of our own safety.  

Instead, we're supposed to alert the floor manager, who may or may not alert security.  Security, of course, is already overwhelmed with Keeping The Homeland Safe For Democracy and looking for hidden bombs and such (sadly, I'm not kidding.)  They're usually too busy making the sure the 3rd ballerina stage left doesn't whip a Kalashnikov out of her tutu and commence to spraying the audience.  

Moral of the story?  Next time, plant a Kalashnikov on the kid.  _Then_ they'll kick him out.  Bonus points for using lots of duct tape in the process.  The more the better.


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## Carol (Oct 12, 2009)

Give the kid a lavicious stare and ask him if he wants to come visit a new church that will be good for his young soul.  Betcha dollars to donuts the parents get that kid shut up in a moment... :lol2:


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## elder999 (Oct 12, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Oh...and if I'm paying more than $50 for my meal...you kids probably don't belong in that restaraunt.


 

Which brings up another thing-and an interesting memory:

When I wa a wee-lad, and was well, I was in Cub Scouts, and Boy Scouts, and Little League. It's Little League I'm remembering, I think-though many of the faces are the same, so I can't be sure. Anyway, I sucked at baseball-I sucked at most sports at that age-but I was on a championship winning team. At the end of the season, trophies would be dispensed at a dinner for all participants-said dinner was held (for the occasion I'm remembering) at the Monteverde Rest*aurant*, which, as you can see, is a fairly posh place.....

All such occasions-in my life, anyway-were typically preceded by a benediction from my dad:Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Little League, etc. A hazard, back then, of wearing a clerical collar-though these days, it's likely there'd be lawsuits involved. Interestingly, Dad had a veritable collection of non-denominational prayers for such occasions-omitting any mention of "Jesus," "Christ," and even, on occasion, "God." While I loved my dad, I usually thought of him as stern, and unflexible-what son doesn't think as much of a father _who is doing his job?_ It's only in retrospect that I see what a kind, considerate and flexible man he really was.....

....anyway-I was struck by the behavior of many of the other boys. No sooner had rolls arrived on the table then many of them wound up in water glasses, or tossed across the room. Such behavior went on, and on, and on-and the one thing I could clearly see-having gone out for dinner with my parents since I was a small child and we lived in the city-is that these kids' parents clearly *did not* take them out, nor teach them proper manners, or what they were for.  I was always taught that manners-including table manners-were about making everyone comfortable-and seeing those boys' behavior is what brought that idea home for me....I was probably about 8 years old....

I'd say that the only kids that don't belong in restaurants-regardless of what the meal costs-are the ones that haven't been taught the proper expectations for behavior, but what do I know?


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 12, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Which brings up another thing-and an interesting memory:
> 
> When I wa a wee-lad, and was well, I was in Cub Scouts, and Boy Scouts, and Little League. It's Little League I'm remembering, I think-though many of the faces are the same, so I can't be sure. Anyway, I sucked at baseball-I sucked at most sports at that age-but I was on a championship winning team. At the end of the season, trophies would be dispensed at a dinner for all participants-said dinner was held (for the occasion I'm remembering) at the Monteverde Rest*aurant*, which, as you can see, is a fairly posh place.....
> 
> ...


 
Earlier I stated it was more about maturity than chronological years on the planet...lol... and of course, that's influenced by the parents. 

That's also why I never blame the kid...he/she's just being a kid. It's the parents that I address in these rare situations. 

I remember being a kid too...and all my mom had to do was give me a certain look to get me to stop in my tracks and realize my behavior was not appropriate for the situation. Even as a grown man that "look" can still freeze me in my tracks! LOL


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## Tames D (Oct 12, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> I remember being a kid too...and all my mom had to do was give me a certain look to get me to stop in my tracks and realize my behavior was not appropriate for the situation. Even as a grown man that "look" can still freeze me in my tracks! LOL


 
I've seen that movie too. And unfortunatey, I got that "look" alot, while growing up.


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## jks9199 (Oct 12, 2009)

To me, it's simple.

As a parent, it's my job to teach my kid to behave properly in a variety of settings.  It's also my job to know his limitations.  He's 8 months old.  No movies, dinner out is limited to appropriately family friendly places, which will serve us rapidly enough that it's inside his behavior span.  If I take him to church, and he starts to act out -- I take him out of the church.  Again -- it's my job to know the limits.

Teaching him to behave does require exposing him to different situations.  But that also means I have to be ready to enforce behavior by taking appropriate actions.  At 8 months -- that means I (or my wife) take HIM outside until he calms down.  As he gets older, that may mean telling him to behave -- and then taking him outside if he doesn't.  (Or using other appropriate disciplinary steps, like no dessert or no carousel ride after the restaurant -- going back to my childhood where a restaurant would give out carousel tickets to kids...)  Which just may mean neither of us get dinner...  

But I'm not imposing HIS misbehavior on other people except in ways that I can't control, like getting stuck longer than expected or predicted somewhere.


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## Flea (Oct 12, 2009)

This conversation reminds me of my service-dog training days.  It's exactly the same conversation, word for word.  Ahh, nostalgia.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 12, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> A very interesting thread, *Buzzy*.
> 
> I am heartened by the timbre of the replies within it too. It would seem that at least the section of the community that practise martial arts understand the necessity of discipline and consideration {odd that }.
> 
> ...



My wife and I took a trip to Washington DC years ago when my daughter was 18th months old.  We took a tour of the Capitol and, like any toddler, Miss Olivia decided to try out her lungs in the main gathering chamber.  A man became so enraged by this, he lunged at my child and my wife, shaking his fist and I promptly "interposed" myself and politely told him to stop attacking my family.

Before we get too righteous about parents and parenting, know that sometimes the **** hits the fan despite the best intentions.  Kids can be angels one minute and devils the next.  I won't excuse poor parenting, however, a little understanding goes a long ways.


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## shesulsa (Oct 12, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> To me, it's simple.
> 
> As a parent, it's my job to teach my kid to behave properly in a variety of settings.  It's also my job to know his limitations.  He's 8 months old.  No movies, dinner out is limited to appropriately family friendly places, which will serve us rapidly enough that it's inside his behavior span.  If I take him to church, and he starts to act out -- I take him out of the church.  Again -- it's my job to know the limits.
> 
> ...



Indeed and bravo!


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## arnisador (Oct 12, 2009)

We've taken our kids to touring Broadway shows, concerts, and fine restaurants for years, to expose them to these things and teach them how to act while there. We've often had people give us dirty looks as our kids walked in with us, fearing the worst, but have _never _garnered a complaint about their behavior. We wouldn't have taken them if they weren't ready.

Kids who are exposed to the arts (may) become adults who support the arts. But, if they're not ready...they're not ready.

With all the kid-friendly shows on Broadway these day, this has become an issue there too--the NY Times ran a big story on it a year or two ago. If kids are being rambunctious at Shrek: The Musical, can you complain?


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## jks9199 (Oct 12, 2009)

arnisador said:


> We've taken our kids to touring Broadway shows, concerts, and fine restaurants for years, to expose them to these things and teach them how to act while there. We've often had people give us dirty looks as our kids walked in with us, fearing the worst, but have _never _garnered a complaint about their behavior. We wouldn't have taken them if they weren't ready.
> 
> Kids who are exposed to the arts (may) become adults who support the arts. But, if they're not ready...they're not ready.
> 
> With all the kid-friendly shows on Broadway these day, this has become an issue there too--the NY Times ran a big story on it a year or two ago. If kids are being rambunctious at Shrek: The Musical, can you complain?


Great point.

If I go to a afternoon matinee of *Shrek* or *Astroboy* or some other clearly kid-aimed movie, I have to expect a certain amount of kid behavior.  And misbehavior.  But if the kid's behavior crosses some reasonable threshold of disturbing the other patrons (both kids and adults), then they should be taken outside till they can behave.  At the same time... I shouldn't have to deal with a dozen pre-teen kids running in the aisles at a 10 PM showing, either.  Or, in my personal opinion, deal with the same kids in an R-rated film, whatever the hour.  But then, I am probably a little bit of a square in that regard...

It seems to me that if kids are taught and given appropriate behavior models (the parent - or other adult - texting their way through Mass or the movie isn't exactly setting a good example, and probably needs to accept some of the blame for the kid doing the same...) early on and consistently, and given opportunities to practice and have those lessons reinforced, then the kids will know how to behave and won't be a problem.  It's the ones who aren't taught (because telling them to behave might stifle their creativity or whatever crap) or are given bad examples (see the prior parenthetical comment) that become problems as a general rule.  

And, sometimes, you have to recognize and realize that certain combinations aren't good, too...  Put a bunch of early teen guys and girls together in almost any circumstances without a LOT of supervision, and you've got a recipe for problems!  Especially if the girls encourage the guys at all...  like by looking at them!


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## MBuzzy (Oct 12, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> My wife and I took a trip to Washington DC years ago when my daughter was 18th months old.  We took a tour of the Capitol and, like any toddler, Miss Olivia decided to try out her lungs in the main gathering chamber.  A man became so enraged by this, he lunged at my child and my wife, shaking his fist and I promptly "interposed" myself and politely told him to stop attacking my family.
> 
> Before we get too righteous about parents and parenting, know that sometimes the **** hits the fan despite the best intentions.  Kids can be angels one minute and devils the next.  I won't excuse poor parenting, however, a little understanding goes a long ways.



Very good point!  I agree that there is certainly some patience called for in dealing with parents and small children.  If the parents had been making a reasonable effort to control him and removed him when it wasn't possible....that is a different story.  

I'm about to have one and know that there will be situations when he 
goes baby on me at the least opportune time, but I think that it says a lot about the parents when they deal with it well.  Hopefully I have the wisdom to deal with it properly!


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## Sukerkin (Oct 12, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> A man became so enraged by this, he lunged at my child and my wife, shaking his fist and I promptly "interposed" myself and politely told him to stop attacking my family.


 
Hardly an appropriate reaction :tdown: (his, not yours).  

In case my brief description of my mid-flight 'encounter' gave the wrong impression, the angrier I get, the calmer and more polite I become.  When I reach the point where I have completely lost my temper, I don't speak - very odd I know :O.



maunakumu said:


> Before we get too righteous about parents and parenting, know that sometimes the **** hits the fan despite the best intentions. Kids can be angels one minute and devils the next. I won't excuse poor parenting, however, a little understanding goes a long ways.


 
All anyone can ask is that the parent make the attempt to correct the behaviour in question.  Excusing it or defending it does little to improve matters.  If the misbehaving child is below the age of cognition then all that can be done is remove it from the area where it's actions are inappropriate if it cannot be calmed in a reasonable time.


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## MBuzzy (Oct 12, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> In case my brief description of my mid-flight 'encounter' gave the wrong impression, the angrier I get, the calmer and more polite I become.  When I reach the point where I have completely lost my temper, I don't speak - very odd I know :O.



How very English of you!


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## jks9199 (Oct 12, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> Sukerkin said:
> 
> 
> > In case my brief description of my mid-flight 'encounter' gave the wrong impression, the angrier I get, the calmer and more polite I become. When I reach the point where I have completely lost my temper, I don't speak - very odd I know :O.
> ...



My thoughts exactly!


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## Live True (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm a lucky mother of a very precocious and curious child (who will be one year old tomorrow).  She is also very social. So, we find trips anywhere are usually very positive, because she is fairly well behaved and "flirts" with folks.  That said, I have had to take her out of restaurants before, and go to car, outside bench, what have you until she can calm down. I think many parents don't do this necessary tactic because it "spoils" their fun.  Me, I look at it as part of my responsiblity as a parent (to her) and polite social person (other patrons).

That said, we take Karen everywhere with us. We want her to appreciate the outdoors, restaurants, etc.  We haven't taken her to a movie theatre or play yet, as we also do as suggested here...keep it appropriate to her capabilities.  However, we have a great local garden and another large public park that hold classic concerts on the lawn during the summers. That will be her first public exposure. She's already attended a fourth of July celebration with a wonderful military band playing classics and jazz selections.

So, as already stated...and simply confirmation...it's a combination of utilizing public venues that are appropriate to the child's age and behaviour (and seeking out alternatives) AND parental responsiblity. That last is two fold..responsibility to the child and thier developement and responsiblity to the others at the venue.

I think our daughter is so socially interactive because she is exposed to many venues, and she's encouraged to interact with people...not machines or gadgets.  She has her baby/toddler moments...and we deal with them in turn. Mainly, we show her how we expect her to behave, keep an eye on her actions and try to distract/head off impending bad behaviour, and keep the willingness to remove ourselves from the situation.  Short term inconvenience trading for long term child understanding and good behaviour.  Works for me.

My two cents.


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## MBuzzy (Oct 13, 2009)

Live True said:


> That said, we take Karen everywhere with us. We want her to appreciate the outdoors, restaurants, etc. We haven't taken her to a movie theatre or play yet, as we also do as suggested here...keep it appropriate to her capabilities. However, we have a great local garden and another large public park that hold classic concerts on the lawn during the summers. That will be her first public exposure. She's already attended a fourth of July celebration with a wonderful military band playing classics and jazz selections.


 
That is the other thing that I don't understand - there are SO MANY venues that are designed and acceptable for children.  Why go to an evening performance of classical music, when there are matinees, outdoor concerts, children's musicals, etc etc....especially in our area.  There is so much to do and it is always nice outside, so there are many many options for small children.  If a kid misbehaves at an outdoor concert - or even a matinee, it is completely different!


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