# We Are A Black Belt School



## Kaygee (Dec 30, 2012)

I greatly apologize if this subject has been touched on before, but when I used the search feature, every single post with "black belt" in it comes up and you can imagine how many times that would be.

As I have discovered recently that I do not have what it takes to be a black belt, I have done much soul-searching and I have been going to even more schools in my area, trying to find a new school to attend. I have visited well over 25 schools in my area.....easily.....the number is probably greater than that!

I noticed that most of these schools have "We Are A Black Belt School" somewhere in their school. I did some research to see what this actually means and it looks like it is a clear sign of a "McDojo" or a school that just likes to rip people off by forcing you to buy package after package with more expensive rates and longer contacts, all while using the "carrot on the stick" philosophy.

I read a great article here http://www.tipsonschools.com/ and noticed disturbing trends mentioned in that article in nearly every single school that I have visited. I realize that no school is going to be like you read like it was back in the good ole days, but are the good schools THAT FAR AND IN BETWEEN?

All of these schools anymore have two to three year contracts with different packages that allow you to attend two classes if you pay X-amount and three classes if you pay X-amount, and nearly all of them have a "black belt club", which always makes me think of the Cobrai Kai from Karate Kid. 

The traits of a "bad school" (and I put that in quotes because it is just an opinion from an article) were even existent in my former school. I have read in other articles, similiar to the one I linked above, that mentioned things about your instructor's weight, and if his belly is too big than get out of the school, (one of my instructor's had a big ole belly, he couldn't even kick anymore) or if the instructor's cannot even demonstrate the form or technique that they are trying to teach you, get out of the school.

I am about to just call my search for a martial arts school quits. I just want a school that wants to teach students an art and be NOTHING but a teacher/mentor.......not a owner or banker or salesman.

I know different areas have different trends and schools, but I think my area may just be "dried up". I gotta find that one place out in the middle of nowhere where the instructor is smoking a pipe, living in a tent and is looking for a student to teach. 

Just kidding, I know that doesn't exist. But does the phrase "We Are  A Black Belt School"  mean an automatic GTFO sign?


----------



## seasoned (Dec 30, 2012)

To many dojo are falling into the marketing era of competition, vying for potential student dollars. 

Instead they should...
Promise nothing but a well equipped facility with top notch instructors and leave the rest up to the individual to grab hold................... No gimmicks.


----------



## pgsmith (Dec 30, 2012)

It depends a lot on where you are looking. If you're relying on the internet or yellow pages, then you're only going to find those schools that are competing hardest for student dollars. Judging from your complaint, I would assume that is not what you're looking for. The best place to look for martial art schools is a martial arts forum such as this one, where there are a number of experienced practitioners to help you out. However, you've not said what sort of martial art you are looking for or where you are located, so your best resource is left unused.

  Good schools and good instructors are not going to go out of their way to find you since they don't have to.


----------



## Kaygee (Dec 30, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> It depends a lot on where you are looking. If you're relying on the internet or yellow pages, then you're only going to find those schools that are competing hardest for student dollars. Judging from your complaint, I would assume that is not what you're looking for. The best place to look for martial art schools is a martial arts forum such as this one, where there are a number of experienced practitioners to help you out. However, you've not said what sort of martial art you are looking for or where you are located, so your best resource is left unused.
> 
> Good schools and good instructors are not going to go out of their way to find you since they don't have to.



I never thought about it that way. Whenever someone has tried to help me find a school in the past, they have always used the same thing that I used....

www.dojolocator.com

Should I post the sort of information that you speak of above here or in a different forum?


----------



## arnisador (Dec 30, 2012)

It is a marketing gimmick. I think it started out as a way of saying everyone should plan on achieving that goal but has morphed into buying a "Black Belt Package" in many places that's a gym membership type of idea. When I hear that phrase it's a serious turn-off for me.

But however much we enjoy this hobby, it is a business and marketing can help--esp. since most schools survive by teaching kids, whose parents are paying their tuition. Marketing works.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Dec 30, 2012)

Plenty of commercial schools teach quality arts but I do agree there are a strong number of them that care little about the skills developed by students. Every school is likely to have a few underachievers but whether or not the students impress you or not might not be reflective of the teachers skill. So look at what the instructor does and if you want to move like him or her then consider enrolling.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Dec 30, 2012)

They tried, We Are An Orange Belt School, and it just didn't seem to pack the same punch.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 30, 2012)

> I realize that no school is going to be like you read like it was back in the good ole days, but are the good schools THAT FAR AND IN BETWEEN?


Just exactly what does that mean? Just how were martial arts schools run in the good ole days? If you think it was just show up whenever you wanted and didnt have to pay a lot of money for training and the instructor was there for you, you better think again. I have three different Master instructors one from Hong Kong one from the Philippines one from Thailand 

In Hong Kong once being accepted as a student his father paid in advance for a year. To be accepted as a student he had to be recommended by another student and he had to apply. After going through a 3 month waiting period he was finally accepted. If students payments were not on time they were not allowed to enter the front door much less allowed to train. He didnt see any training with the head instructor until he have been training there for almost 2 years and it was for a few seconds at a time to be corrected for something. There was no specific training times you just showed up and trained with who was there, many times he was the only one there other than a senior member there to help out. After the first year of training he had to re-apply and be accepted again and had to commit to 3 years of training. Today he travels the U.S. and Europe instructing Wing Chun as well as has his own school.

The one from the Philippines started at the age of 6 under his grandfather and had no choice if he wanted to train or not. Up at 5 or 5:30 and trained for an hour, then school and training again in the afternoon. When he was 12 he was sent to another instructor for a year who forced him to work and fight for food. If he didnt fight or when he did fight if he lost he went hungry. Now that is a great martial arts life isnt it?

My Muay Thai Ajarn started at the age of 7 and started each day with a 3 mile run. Eat, clean up the training area train for an 1 ½ eat, rest and work in the camp until 4 then training started train for 1-2 hours then run. Eat sleep and start all over again in the morning. Most all the money he earned went to the camp and some went to his family. As a teenager the camp started doing some education training and by the time he was 17 he had saved enough money to buy a plane ticket and came to America getting away from the camp. 

Yea, lets train like the good ole days. Today the best martial arts training is in the U.S.: here martial arts schools are a business and smart martial arts business owners will run their schools as a business. Classes are held at the times they are scheduled and you will have to pay for the use of the facility and for the instruction. At my school we use membership agreements. 6 months for beginners, this allows the student and the school to evaluate each other and assure we want to continue the training. This is discussed and from the beginning. Next level 1 year or 2 year memberships and this is also discussed from the beginning. Nothing hidden, no surprises. When fee's are increased it is for new members only not ok we've raised our prices and everyone now pays more. That is what the membership agreement is for. Your cost is locked in and we give a reduced price for signing a membership agreement. 






> I just want a school that wants to teach students an art and be NOTHING but a teacher/mentor.......not a owner or banker or salesman.


Uh, right. What you will get then is a group, club and you can get some very good training. I started out that way. 10-12 people training when they wanted to but upset if something came up and I couldnt be there or was sick. So I opened a school, lease payments, insurance, utilities, license fees, equipment cost, cleaning supplies, office supplies and safety cost. My basic cost monthly is $8000.00 a month and you want the school to not be run as a business. Then why not you open a school and pay an instructor to do the teaching and mentoring. Then you can train what and how you want whenever you want. Good Luck!!


----------



## Kaygee (Dec 30, 2012)

Wow.....a lot of anger in you, once again, Danny T. I do not believe this is the first time you went off on a rant on me like that. When I referred to the good ole days, I was referring to how difficult it was to attain a blackbelt and how dedicated you had to be in order to even keep up with the studies.

You need to calm down a little bit.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 30, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Wow.....a lot of anger in you, once again, Danny T. I do not believe this is the first time you went off on a rant on me like that. When I referred to the good ole days, I was referring to how difficult it was to attain a blackbelt and how dedicated you had to be in order to even keep up with the studies.
> 
> You need to calm down a little bit.



I think his point was that you don't have any idea what 'the good old days' were like and that your idea that a commercial school can be operated without worrying about the finances is... silly... ignorant... foolish... and lots of other descriptive terms that will make you upset.

I find it amusing that someone who says they 'don't have what it takes' to be a black belt spends so much time visiting schools, and none training. Upset by a $10 price increase (schools do have bills to pay, so deal with it). And tons of teenage angst about driving an increadible 20 minutes to a school. Upset because the school you left wouldn't let you test without having trained.

Grow up, kid. Pick a school and train. Or take up knitting.


----------



## Kaygee (Dec 30, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think his point was that you don't have any idea what 'the good old days' were like and that your idea that a commercial school can be operated without worrying about the finances is... silly... ignorant... foolish... and lots of other descriptive terms that will make you upset.
> 
> I find it amusing that someone who says they 'don't have what it takes' to be a black belt spends so much time visiting schools, and none training. Upset by a $10 price increase (schools do have bills to pay, so deal with it). And tons of teenage angst about driving an increadible 20 minutes to a school. Upset because the school you left wouldn't let you test without having trained.
> 
> Grow up, kid. Pick a school and train. Or take up knitting.


And instead of getting the moderators in here again, I will ask you personally to stop your attacks and remind you that you have a choice not to comment on a thread if you do not have anything nice to say. 
I really hope I do not grow up to be miserable, spiteful and full of hate as some of you!


----------



## Blindside (Dec 30, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> And instead of getting the moderators in here again, I will ask you personally to stop your attacks and remind you that you have a choice not to comment on a thread if you do not have anything nice to say.
> I really hope I do not grow up to be miserable, spiteful and full of hate as some of you!



I am not seeing "attacks", some rather strongly worded advice maybe, but advice that I would generally agree with.


----------



## K-man (Dec 30, 2012)

*Kaygee*, I understand where you're coming from. You have the choice of a commercial school or smaller organisations such as we have. I personally don't like contracts and I won't sign up for direct debit. That costs me a bit more for my aikido training but I've managed to stick at that for six years so far and I have no intention to stop anytime soon. Even business owners recognise who is serious and who is just kicking the tyres.  

That said, do you have any friends or associates who train?  If so, and they are happy with their training, maybe you could have a couple of lessons to see how their training runs.  If you like what you see, give it a shot. If not, then I would start crawling the Internet looking for the style of training you think you would like, in the area that you can get to easily.  I run a very small school but still have an Internet presence.  Don't be put off by "we are a black belt school" as that means nothing. Except in McDojos where your black belt virtually comes with the sign on package, very few people starting out training stick it long enough to get to black belt anyway, and there are many reasons for that. 

Good luck with your search.      :asian:


----------



## Danny T (Dec 30, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Wow.....a lot of anger in you, once again, Danny T. I do not believe this is the first time you went off on a rant on me like that. When I referred to the good ole days, I was referring to how difficult it was to attain a blackbelt and how dedicated you had to be in order to even keep up with the studies.
> 
> You need to calm down a little bit.



Anger? Rant? Wow. Wasn't my intent. Sorry you took it that way. It is Passion. 
Just understand, that whether or not is is fair; life isn't fair. I do get opinionated when it comes to the business of martial arts because many people are idealistic and life isn't. One must deal with what is not with what should be. Bills have to be paid and it is a business and the instructor who has taken the time, energy, and effort to develop a business is entitled to make a profit. As to "Black Belt" do you realize there are more martial art systems out there than Do Not have any ranking or belting system associated with them than there is with. The almighty BB came from Judo and is a relatively recent idea compared to the history of fighting systems. Most martial art systems you pay the instructor and you train. No belts, no rank, no testing; just train and fight. Some you pay a lot of money and some it is your life (whether it is what you choose or not). I have been in the martial arts for 40 years, I have tremendous passion for it and want it to grow with excellent practitioners. That is idealistic and I am a realist. 97% of the people in the martial arts are there for the other 3% to train. What is meant by that is I understand people come in and are excited about being there and they want to learn right up until they realize it is hard and it hurts or something else that makes them feel good quickly comes and they are gone. It takes committment, energy, desire, sacrifice, discipline, time, money and so much more to excel. For me Martial Arts is not a hobby or something I do to get into shape, or is something to do. For the 3% it is what we do. You are concerned about learning to be a BB yet you are worried about being in a BB School? Now I'm going to say something that you will probable take as anger. I don't care about the Black Belt. Getting to Black Belt is but a very short time in life and is but a very short part of the journey. You are concerned about traveling 8 miles to attend a school. I know cost is important, I drove 9 hrs one way 8-10 times a year for 10 years to train with one of my instructors while training at another school. I saved my money and traveled when I could. I traveled 1200 miles 4-6 times a year for 8 years to train with an instructor in another system. I have paid tens of thousands of dollars training and so has many of the 3% who train for the love of the martial arts. It is expensive for high quality instruction and training. I love instructing and I do it for the love of the martial arts. I am expensive and worth it; If you want quality training. I have high qualilty equipment and a state of the art facility. I am a professional martial artist and my family deserves to reap the benefits of my time, and professionalism. The students who stay with our programs are excellent martial artists and they are all very good fighters if they need to be. They demand committment of me and our staff; and we give it. However, for those who truly want to be true martial artists I also demand committment, discipline, and loyalty to the martial arts (not to me). That committment is first shown in them making a committment in time and money in the form of a 1 year or 2 year membership agreement. It is not about the money; it is about the commitment to training and following through with what you commit to. 

If this comes off as strong it is the passion; no anger, no ranting, it is all about the art. Not the training system but the art; the art is the individual and that takes discipline, committment, desire, love, and more.


----------



## dancingalone (Dec 30, 2012)

I've never done this before, but I have a sincere offer for you if you can work out the logistics:  Move to Texas.  You may train free of charge in your choice of Goju-ryu karate or TKD (KKW with a lot of personal bits thrown in) in my studio.  The karate class is small, around 6-8 people per session, but with an edge to it.  The adult TKD class is plenty tough too, though not competition-oriented, and truthfully it's not as rigorous as the Goju class. But there are enough good adults around to test yourself against if you are so minded.

A warning though:  There are lots of 'boring' aspects such as body conditioning & hardening, etc, in my karate class.  I'm also very picky about kata as it is the vehicle which drives the effectiveness of the art.  This means much, much more than being finicky about the pure performance aspects of forms practice and we can talk about this more if you are serious about learning a bit more about me.  You simply won't be allowed to test for higher rank if both your skills and fitness do not meet an established standard.  I find that a lot of people come and go because their expectations of learning Okinawan karate simply didn't meet the sometimes numbing reality of it.


----------



## James Kovacich (Dec 30, 2012)

From what I've seen there is a connection between that phrase and schools that give kids blackbelts and possibly all or most of the blackbelts in the school are kids.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 30, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Wow.....a lot of anger in you, once again, Danny T. I do not believe this is the first time you went off on a rant on me like that. When I referred to the good ole days, I was referring to how difficult it was to attain a blackbelt and how dedicated you had to be in order to even keep up with the studies.
> 
> You need to calm down a little bit.



You might need to recalibrate your anger sensors there.  Danny T was providing some useful information and perspective, but I didn't detect any anger in what he wrote.

Getting back to the original topic, martial arts instructors who want to make a living teaching or even just to maintain nice training facilities will need to ensure a steady cash flow in order to pay the bills.  Contracts, fees, and gimmicks such as "black belt clubs" are some of the ways an instructor may try to keep their income steady.  This doesn't necessarily mean much of anything one way or another with regards to the quality of instruction.

When it comes to evaluating a martial arts school, you'll want to watch a few classes, get the details of what they are charging ( including any hidden expenses like one-time membership fees or belt fees) and then ask yourself the following:
Are they teaching what I want to learn?
Are they teaching it well?
Is the quality of instruction and the facilities worth what they are charging?
Can I afford it?
Are there any other considerations that would make it wrong for me? (Unworkable schedule, unpleasant atmosphere, etc)

If you don't care for commercial studios, than you might want to keep an eye out for smaller clubs. Sometimes these can be very affordable. The downsides can include:
small, poorly equipped, or even non-existent training facilities
limited or unreliable class times
small number of training partners
can be hard to find without looking around and networking

BTW - I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you don't have what it takes to achieve a black belt.  Based on the one video you posted, you definitely have the physical talent to get there.  If you mean that you aren't currently willing or able to travel more than x minutes to class or pay more than y dollars for lessons, then that's really just about your current situation and your priorities.  If you mean that you don't have the patience to go through whatever your school requires for the rank without getting critical of how the school is run, then probably it's best to just forget about the rank and enjoy your training.  Do that and you might find yourself getting to black belt before you know it.


----------



## Carol (Dec 30, 2012)

We are a black belt school.  We are dedicated, we are motivated, we are on a quest to be our best.  Or something like that.

There is a whole school pledge that came out from (I think...) United Professionals/Black Belt Schools of America, which offers school owners a number of services for developing, promoting, and running their schools -- including a billing service.   If you here that, chances are you are at a school that is associated (past or present) with UP/BBSA.   A lot of these schools have a solid business core.   

Does that mean automatically run?  Not necessarily.   As someone who prefers the Malay arts, it is can be difficult to find schools that teach these arts full time.  I have seen some schools offer Filipino or Indonesian instruction part-time while also teaching a more popular art that pays the bills.   

Some folks prefer looking for the more independent teachers that like teaching out of their garage or basement, and aren't interested in running a business.  Nothing wrong with a teacher that doesn't have a retail present but as a student, it can take some intel to make sure you have found someone who is teaching in such a venue by choice...and not because they have poor people skills (or worse...) that are preventing them from operating in a storefront environment.   

I hate hate hate hate hate membership contracts and I have the good fortune of living in a state where the consumer protection laws make them difficult (but not impossible) to implement.  Other states have no such restrictions and therefore contracts become the norm.

Many schools that work with contracts want to see some sort of financial commitment from the student, especially if the school is not very profitable.  Sometimes these can be worked out by making alternative offers.  I once talked with someone and proposed that if I trained with him, I would write a check for my first three months tuition up front, and continue to pay him quarterly -- in lieu of signing a contract.  He agreed that would be acceptable (I didn't join the school -- too far away) so there are ways of getting around contracts, but sometimes it takes a bit of creativity and a little give-and-take.

Give-and-take is a part of MA training in general.  I don't think there is a perfect school out there.  I think a big part of training is making the most out of the options that you have available.  Training in something that interests you is a big factor.  If a person doesn't enjoy what they are doing, they won't stick with it.   And...they shouldn't stick with it, IMO.   Based on your posts, I'm not sure if you're solidified behind what you are looking for in a school.  I'm not saying that as personal dig....I haven't decided on what I am looking for in a school either, which is the main reason why I've been doing a lot more walking in the woods than I have kicking and punching.


----------



## Kaygee (Dec 30, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> BTW - I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you don't have what it takes to achieve a black belt.  Based on the one video you posted, you definitely have the physical talent to get there.  If you mean that you aren't currently willing or able to travel more than x minutes to class or pay more than y dollars for lessons, then that's really just about your current situation and your priorities.  If you mean that you don't have the patience to go through whatever your school requires for the rank without getting critical of how the school is run, then probably it's best to just forget about the rank and enjoy your training.  Do that and you might find yourself getting to black belt before you know it.



What I mean by that I don't have what it takes to achieve a black belt, is that I didn't have the patience to wait for my old school to test me because I felt that I was "getting the shaft" from the instructors there. Also, I was questioning who they were promoting and why they were skipping students ranks, when in reality, it is not my place to do such a thing.

Being a black belt is more than a colored belt, I don't need to tell you that. And it means a lot more to me as well. I showed myself that I did not have the patience, or discipline to wait it out to be tested, to trust my instructor's decisions and to not worry about the students that (I felt) were being unfairly promoted when I should have just been worrying about myself.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 30, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> And instead of getting the moderators in here again, I will ask you personally to stop your attacks and remind you that you have a choice not to comment on a thread if you do not have anything nice to say.
> I really hope I do not grow up to be miserable, spiteful and full of hate as some of you!



There was NO personal attack in that. It was blunt advice. 
If people all around you are all saying essentially the same thing, even if it's something you don't want to hear, maybe it's time to consider that it might be correct and that you need to consider what they're saying. 

Grow up. Pick a school and train. Or take up knitting.


----------



## Kaygee (Dec 30, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> There was NO personal attack in that. It was blunt advice.
> If people all around you are all saying essentially the same thing, even if it's something you don't want to hear, maybe it's time to consider that it might be correct and that you need to consider what they're saying


Nah, cause it's just you saying it.


----------



## Kaygee (Dec 30, 2012)

Carol said:


> We are a black belt school.  We are dedicated, we are motivated, we are on a quest to be our best.  Or something like that.
> 
> There is a whole school pledge that came out from (I think...) United Professionals/Black Belt Schools of America, which offers school owners a number of services for developing, promoting, and running their schools -- including a billing service.   If you here that, chances are you are at a school that is associated (past or present) with UP/BBSA.   A lot of these schools have a solid business core.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the detailed explanation. I guess it kind of makes sense, if you look at it from a financial point of view. But that was the point of this thread.....for me to understand if that phrase being on a school's wall is a bad thing or not. It seems that it really isn't, but all of the responses that I received.

Thank you!


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 31, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Nah, cause it's just you saying it.


Thats because the rest of us have given up saying it, since you, and others like you (really anyone that has to be told a harsh truth), never want to hear those harsh truths, and often ignore it or take it as a personal insult or attack. Since this is how you respond to it, I'm not going to address that part again.
Now to my response to the thread..I've skimmed through the posts and saw the phrase is related to some organization, but I highly doubt most people are related to that org. More likely, its just a marketing gimmick, to try to attract new customers. However, I wouldn't take that to mean they aren't a legitimate school. A lot of times, instructors will hire someone else to help them promote the school, and just follow their advice, which may make them look like a mcdojo. Even if thats not the case, just because someone uses a certain phrase to attract customers, it has no real bearing on their efficiency and integrity as a school, just that they want students. Never hurts to check them out, and probably get a free lesson or two. Those lessons, and talking to the instructors, are much more telling about if its a mcdojo then anything else, including their advertising techniques. As for the website you found, here is my (limited) personal belief about each tip.
1)avoid contracts:why? If you know you like the school and have checked it out, and plan to stay, why does it mater if there's a contract. think of it like a gym membership, what gym would let you join without a contract? Its just a matter of insurance for the customer.
2)beware of hidden fees:this is what you have to worry about. If you see them in the contract, or the instructor makes an 'off-hand' comment about them, inquire and get worried.
3)multi-tier pricing: if its a common thing they do, changing prices, don't stay unless you would have been willing to pay the new price originally. If it was a sudden thing due to an instructors new financial problem (rent, laid off, etc.) thats a different story, re-evaluate it and if its not too high a price, just pay the new price. dont let them raise you multiple times in a year or 2 though.
4)testing fees: Inquire about the testing fees beforehand, and the amount of belts, and avg. time between ranks, then figure out how much it adds to your overall price. If it seems reasonable, your fine, if not, reconsider.
5)Qualified teachers: Obviously they need to be qualified, but dont worry too much if they wont share their lineage/who they tested with. My view, which ive stated multiple times on this forum, is that if they know the material better than you, are capable in a fight (unless age or a physical handicap is interfering), and understand how to properly teach, they are ok. If not, they should not be teaching you.
6)Avoid chain schools:not necessarily true. Some chain schools are chains because they are effective. Others may be ineffective, but have one or two effective instructors at certain schools, and if you learn from them, you're fine. Look up the schools reputation and use my response to 5 to see if you find the instructor qualified to teach you.
7)(Done typing the advice, just click the link):Completely agree with this one. If schools use calendars instead of skill, never go to them.
8:Important, but most schools ive seen are sanitary enough that to me this is a non-issue.
9:read number 5.
10:While looking them up online is important, its more important to deal with the actual instructor, follow #5, and ask both new and old students, away from the instructor or other students, what they think of the school, the instructors, the new students, he old students, the black belts, etc. Ask them everything (in a casual manner) you would want to ask the instructor. If they give you good answers, you're probably good to go. If most of them give bad answers or wont answer (not because you were being rude or abrupt, but just because they dont want to answer) you either wouldnt like the answer or they are all jerks, dont go to that school.


----------



## Kaygee (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks, Kempodisciple. I would like to add a couple comments about your comments to open up a discussion, if you don't mind.

1. Aren't contracts dangerous? While I see the need for them from the school's side (it's a guarantee that they will get paid for "X" amount of time) what if something happens like you lose your job or if you get divorced and cannot afford to go to the school anymore?

2. I have been pretty good at getting this out of the instructor's who's classes I watch. Most of them do not offer the information "up front" or "voluntarily", but they will answer if you ask them.

3. Multi-Tier Pricing, to me, is ridiculous and scary! Let me give you just an example of one of the schools that I went to last week: 
You pay $110 a month, you get to attend two classes per week, but cannot test for your black belt- 24 month contract
You pay $120 a month, you get to attend three classes per week and can test for your black belt- 36 month contract
You pay $150 a month, you get to attend unlimited classes per week and can attend the "special" all-inclusive black belt class that is held on Saturday mornings. YAY! (insert dramatic music). -36 month contract
-Now, if I am wrong, and this is normal and what I should be expecting everywhere I go, because I am seeing it nearly everywhere I go, then please tell me so I know that it's just ME that is being dis-trusting.

4. Testing fees seem to always be in the $40-$50 range per test. So it is always expected when I go to a school and ask and I have never been surpised by the instrcutor's answer. Oh, except a few days ago when I attended a Kenpo school and the instructor said he doesn't charge for "stripe tests" and only charges $15 for belt tests. I have never seen them that cheap before. But his monthly fees were pretty expensive, so that is where it probably adds up to in the end.

5. I thank you for your advice here. It seems that a good amount of the instructors I have seen lately, cannot do half of the stuff they are asking their students to do. And these are instructors in their mid 50's, which is not that old nowadays. Not to mention, I have been to some schools where the 60 year old instructor is still doing split kicks in the air. But I know everyone is different. In the school that I just left, none of the three instructors could perform any of the techniques we were being taught. One tried hard (he was about 55) but because he was away from the school for weeks at a time, he was always "tight" and such.

6. I personally do not have anything against chain schools, although we do not have any, outside of Tiger Schulmann, in this area. And they are just WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too expensive for me! ($199 a month)

7. My former school tested everyone every three months, up to 3rd gup and then tested every 3rd and 2nd gup every six months, all the way up to 1st gup. No one ever failed a test! It was basically just for money. This is where *my* problem arose with the school. It became more of a "rule" or a "right" to test than a privilege. They would skip students that had prior martial arts experience (even though it had NOTHING to do with Tang Soo Do or even a "hard art" for that matter), or that went to more tournaments per year. They would hold many students at 1st gup for years, but the problem is, they shouldn't have even been at 1st gup to begin with. I saw many 1st gups that were 1st gups for 4 or 5 years quit when I joined because they would not be tested for black belt. And rightfully so, they should not have been tested for black belt......however, they should have been held back at the gup they started having issues at, not pushed to the top gup and sent to practically rot there while they tried like hell to get basic moves like chop blocks and center punches down. If you are not ready to test, then you are not ready to test, in my opinion.

8. I have never had an issue with this either.

9. My number 5 answer applies to this as well.

10. I have tried this, but I have Asperger's syndrome (I am not sure if you know what this is) and I have a really, really hard time talking to people I do not know when I have to be the initiator of the conversation. Instructors are easy to talk to because they usually ask you the questions and open the dialogue and once I start talking.......whew, look out! Anyway, I do try to do this, but it is very hard for me to accomplish because I usually just freeze up and stare (uncomfortably) at the other person. It's an odd issue and most people do not understand it, so I don't expect you to get it.

And in case anyone is wondering, we are talking about the "tips" on the link: http://www.tipsonschools.com/

Let's chat some more about this, shall we?
Thank you!


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 31, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Thanks, Kempodisciple. I would like to add a couple comments about your comments to open up a discussion, if you don't mind.


 not at all, thats why I posted them!

1. In that sense, they are dangerous but at the same time if you become friendly with the instructor, and explain your situation when something happens, there's a good chance they'll do something to help you out. I know theboarman posted in another thread that he helps people out when they're in financial stress.
2. No real comment, thats generally how it goes.
3. Yeah, I'm not a fan of them doing things that way. As a side note, my kempo school has a black belt class saturday morning, not because other people aren't allowed to attend or we pay more money, but because we just happen to be the only ones motivated enough to wake up before 8 am to go to class for two hours lol..no extra cost beause its a "black belt class" 
4. As long as youre fine with the monthly prices and test fees, thats the important part.
5. Just remember, they may have a hip replacement or something so they can't do those high kicks, age isn't the only way to have a physical disability. Im kind of surprised by your instructors though, the 55 year old makes sense that hes tight, but wasn't the other instructor in his 20s or 30s? And he cant perform what he's teaching? hmm...
6. Ugh, not a fan of tiger schulmans. there's one near me that I've visited once or twice, it was complete bs. May have just been the instructors, but would never suggest tiger schulmans, especially with their prices.
7. We've already discussed this aspect of your school to the death, so no comment, but if you dislike it so much, then make sure whatever school you decide doesnt have the same problem.
10. Oh, ok. Well, ask the instructors the questions then. Maybe it would help if you told the instructor you'd like to talk to a student but you have Asperger's so if he could explain to the student what you want? Or bring a friend with you to question the other students, or get their number/facebook/email if texting or iming is easier for you? Either way, its still important to get their opinions, so try one of these if you can, but if you can't, don't worry too much about it since there are better ways to get that information.


----------



## Carol (Dec 31, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Thank you for the detailed explanation. I guess it kind of makes sense, if you look at it from a financial point of view. But that was the point of this thread.....for me to understand if that phrase being on a school's wall is a bad thing or not. It seems that it really isn't, but all of the responses that I received.
> 
> Thank you!



I think that a lot of the UP/BBSA methods have left some bad tastes in peoples mouths because they are often used for the "belt factory" profit-over-subtance schools, and they introduce elements that are clearly not about landing a brutal punch but more about showing mommy or daddy (who likely have no clue about MA) how junior can be a good little karate student showing discipline and saying yes sir and no sir.  On adults that sort of thing starts to get a bit tired after awhile.


----------



## Uncle (Dec 31, 2012)

This is one of the reasons I'm a big fan of the structure of traditional Kung Fu. There are no belts, no ranks, only the family structure. Also the menkyo in traditional Japanese martial arts. This means that whoever is only there because they want the shiny belt gets gone pretty quickly. There's definitely something to be said for the old methods which espouse hard work.


----------



## rframe (Dec 31, 2012)

People worry waaaaaaaaay too much about other people, how they run their schools, how they got their rank, blah blah blah... get a grip and just go train somewhere.

You can learn something from just about anyone you meet if you have the right attitude.

If a school gives rank, has extra programs, or whatever else to remain in business and motivate their students... great!

If you dont like those things, then dont participate.... why is that so hard to grasp?


----------



## arnisador (Jan 1, 2013)

Uncle said:


> This is one of the reasons I'm a big fan of the structure of traditional Kung Fu. There are no belts, no ranks, only the family structure. Also the menkyo in traditional Japanese martial arts.



In principle, sure. In practice here in the U.S.A., I know plenty of Kung Fu belt mills.


----------



## Uncle (Jan 1, 2013)

Yeah I'm just glad I found a very traditional sifu. One of the first things he said to me when we first talked was, "I don't give out any belt. What you do with it when someone attack you on the street? Only thing you do is beat them with it. Real Chinese ranking is only sifu and todai. Skill is the only rank that matters."


----------



## Josh Oakley (Jan 1, 2013)

I hate to break it to you, kaygee... but but if you plan in training in a dojo instead of a back yard, the teacher has to be a business man in addition to a good instructor. And I say this having had really positive experiences in back yards, dojos, and shared use rooms. And an instructor who ONLY wants to be a teacher/mentor... had better already have a substantial savings in their account. To be a full time instructor, that requires a steady income. Otherwise it requires a day job, and that puts constraints on just how much time can be devoted to teaching. 

I also ran a dojo for some years. Your jaw would drop at how much it can cost to run one. I had to be a good marketer and keep my students happy (and yes that included teaching people at different levels...some until they threw up, some at a much more limited pace) or there wouldn't have been a dojo to train at. My most recent instructors taught me in a back yard and at a dojo, and I have seen the transition in the most recent case. It is a different ball game. And both these teachers are old school. It is just how it is. 

Frankly I don't give a rats *** about the belt. Never did, never will. But there isn't a way around the financial aspect, even among the best of instructors. If you want a cheaper hobby, there IS knitting, or karaoke, or guitar, or a multitude of other things. There is also self study. The thing is though... it really does seem like a majority of the posts I have seen of you as of late have been pretty bitter. And I understand. I really, REALLY understand. Those who know some of my experiences the past few years could tell you. I have as much reason as anyone to be bitter. I had to keep silent on a multimillion dollar martial arts school lawsuit. I have been betrayed, and I have been abandoned. Profoundly. And that was in 2010 and 2012, which really wasnt that long ago. 

But I chose to focus on the positive lessons that I could glean from my experiences, and move forward. And KEEP moving forward.

Better than the alternative.

Life is just to short for resentment. There is too much to do.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## MJS (Jan 2, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I greatly apologize if this subject has been touched on before, but when I used the search feature, every single post with "black belt" in it comes up and you can imagine how many times that would be.
> 
> As I have discovered recently that I do not have what it takes to be a black belt, I have done much soul-searching and I have been going to even more schools in my area, trying to find a new school to attend. I have visited well over 25 schools in my area.....easily.....the number is probably greater than that!
> 
> ...



I've trained at schools that used that motto.  The one that I train at now, does not.  IMO, the true meaning of the black belt has been so distorted, its not even funny!  People instill this vision in students, that the BB is some magical thing.  Its not!  Its not something that should be handed out, though it is, more times than not.  People give the impression that its something that can be earned in a short time.  Its not, though it is many times.  

IMO, yes, its reeks of Mcdojoism.  Hard work, blood, sweat and tears.  That, IMHO, is what is needed to earn a BB.  Not a motto or people running around, degrading the belt.  Sadly, alot of places are more interested in how many BBs they have, rather than the quality of them.  I'd rather have 10 BBs, who I know earned it, and can fight, and make all their material work, than 100, who suck!


----------



## MJS (Jan 2, 2013)

Kaygee,

I've read thru this thread, and I see a few different things.  1) I see people asking the same questions, which results in 2) people getting tired of the same questions.  What seems like people giving you a hard time, is, in reality, people not sugar coating anything, and calling the shots like they see them.  Thats the way I am.  You've asked questions, looked for answers, and I feel that I've offered advice.  

You seem passionate about training, yet you also seem confused as to what to do.  Finding the right school, one that is quality, one that doesnt charge a ton, its no easy task.  I train at a dojo that is very close to where I live, I pay $105/month, but I have classes 6 days a week to pick from, some of those days I can go to 2 classes.  I have a BJJ/JJJ school not far from me, that I trained at for a month.  Good quality, and about the same cost as where I am now.  I only left because it wasn't what I was looking for.  

IMO, I think you need to figure out what you want, and figure out your budget.  Once you do that, find the school thats right for you.


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 2, 2013)

I understand where you get that from, and I kind of agree.

I *DO* know what I want to do though, there just aren't any schools anywhere remotely around me that teach the arts I am interested in, so I settle for arts that closely resemble them or implement a bit of them into their curriculum.

I *DO* have a budget as well. I'll go as high as $115 a month. I will even go to $120 if the instruction was awesome! But, I would also have to take into account the travel distance because, in reality, that adds to the monthly costs.

But I agree, a lot of people have given me advice and maybe I am failing to see it or failing t listen to it. But I got the point.


----------



## MJS (Jan 2, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I understand where you get that from, and I kind of agree.
> 
> I *DO* know what I want to do though, there just aren't any schools anywhere remotely around me that teach the arts I am interested in, so I settle for arts that closely resemble them or implement a bit of them into their curriculum.
> 
> ...



Yes, sadly, depending on area, you may have a hard time finding what you want.  The alternatives:  well, the obvious one is to accept that you won't be able to train in that art.  You could travel, but again, it depends on how far you wanna go.  I know some people that travel hours 1 way, and I know others that fly out of state for a weekend.  Again, thats not an option for everyone.

The cost...depending on where you train, who you're training with, etc, will certainly be a factor in cost.  A friend who recently got his BJJ Black, now charges over $100 for a 1hr private.  

Anyways...like I said, it sounds like you know what you want, you just need to put a plan together and go with it.


----------



## rframe (Jan 2, 2013)

Look at what's available, eliminate those that are too costly or those that dont fit your schedule, of what remains pick the one that you like the people the best (or that most closely matches the art/style you find most interesting)... pretty simple.  In the real world we dont get what we want, we work with what is possible.


----------



## Guy Preston (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee,

I think you're making too much of a big deal out of your situation if I'm completely honest, just linking this back to your previous threads...

'We are a black belt school' being used in marketing is about getting people in the door, nothing more, nothing less - there are then people who will milk students for their cash and pay little regard to their skill, or there are others that will care about their students development a great deal... but you'll also find both of these within schools that don't use the 'black belt school' marketing....

Regarding an instructors belly, it depends on what you are learning, I've seen some great martial artists who are overweight and I've learned great stuff from - your point about them actually knowing their stuff is more where the concern should be...

All you really need to do if you want to study a martial art is go to a class and decide;
-Am I enjoying it?
-Do I believe in it?
-Is the instructor competent?

If all this is yes, then just keep turning up - you're concentrating too much on a 'black belt', don't!! While it's everyone's initial goal when starting in martial arts, if you make it all your training is about, you'll miss out on enjoying the learning process!

You said 'you don't think you have what it takes to be a black belt' - It sounds more to me like you are at a club that doesn't fit with you, as a black belt should really be a reflection of dedication - if you enjoy training, it's easier to be dedicated... if that's the case, leave, find somewhere else....

If you're area is limited, go further afield - but I'm sure you can find something near enough to not be a big drag..

Enjoying what you do, and being dedicated to your development is the key..


----------



## lklawson (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I greatly apologize if this subject has been touched on before, but when I used the search feature, every single post with "black belt" in it comes up and you can imagine how many times that would be.
> 
> As I have discovered recently that I do not have what it takes to be a black belt, I have done much soul-searching and I have been going to even more schools in my area, trying to find a new school to attend. I have visited well over 25 schools in my area.....easily.....the number is probably greater than that!
> 
> ...


Ignore them and go find a Judo Dojo, a BJJ club, MMA club, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Krav Maga, or "Combatives" group.  Most of these either don't care about "ranks," are happy to have "Professional Brown Belts" (like Judo), or have such a long advancement that "black belt" is way way out ahead for almost everyone training there (many BJJ schools don't actually have *any *"black belts" there and are taught by Blue Belts, iirc).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Jan 3, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Y
> Are they teaching it well?
> Is the quality of instruction and the facilities worth what they are charging?


The problem is, most new students are thoroughly unqualified to judge these two questions.  How can they tell if the quality of instruction is good or if it's just a bunch of malarkey with some zen phrases thrown in?

It's one of the reasons I wrote the rec.martial-arts Newbie's Guide.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## arnisador (Jan 3, 2013)

lklawson said:


> The problem is, most new students are thoroughly unqualified to judge these two questions.  How can they tell if the quality of instruction is good or if it's just a bunch of malarkey with some zen phrases thrown in?



Yeah, I was that 14 year old...er, maybe for longer than I'd care to admit after that, too.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 3, 2013)

Danny T said:


> Just exactly what does that mean? Just how were martial arts schools run in the good ole days? If you think it was just show up whenever you wanted and didnt have to pay a lot of money for training and the instructor was there for you, you better think again. I have three different Master instructors one from Hong Kong one from the Philippines one from Thailand
> 
> In Hong Kong once being accepted as a student his father paid in advance for a year. To be accepted as a student he had to be recommended by another student and he had to apply. After going through a 3 month waiting period he was finally accepted. If students payments were not on time they were not allowed to enter the front door much less allowed to train. He didnt see any training with the head instructor until he have been training there for almost 2 years and it was for a few seconds at a time to be corrected for something. There was no specific training times you just showed up and trained with who was there, many times he was the only one there other than a senior member there to help out. After the first year of training he had to re-apply and be accepted again and had to commit to 3 years of training. Today he travels the U.S. and Europe instructing Wing Chun as well as has his own school.
> 
> ...


Excellent point!  In the "good ol' days" in Europe, in order to get a martial arts education you had to typically be an Aristrocrat.  Those were the only ones that had enough money to afford it.  Eventually the Renaissance came along and there were non-Aristocrat rich who could afford martial arts training.  Even in England, which was actually very "progressive" about allowing non-Aristrocrats (aka "Peasants") certain forms of martial training, you had to join the equivalent of a Guild and pay or "work it off" and you'd have to earn your promotions by fighting anyone and every one who cared to step up (and you had to advertise it with handbills you bought and posted all over town and nearby towns).  Even when the Industrial Revolution started making the middle class rich enough to pay, they still had to pay "Professors" of whatever "science" they were wanting to study, join a club, or what have you.  It was extremely rare for instructors to teach for free.  They had this funny idea about wanting to eat almost every day and not freeze to death of exposure in the winters.  The best (or at least most famous) actively lobbied high ranking Nobels (Dukes, &tc.) for the privilege of teaching their children, because being a Master of Arms on retainer with a Count or whatever is a pretty cushy job compared to being a professional stand in for duels. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> Wow.....a lot of anger in you, once again, Danny T. I do not believe this is the first time you went off on a rant on me like that. When I referred to the good ole days, I was referring to how difficult it was to attain a blackbelt and how dedicated you had to be in order to even keep up with the studies.
> 
> You need to calm down a little bit.


I have an honest question.  How do you know how difficult it was or was not to attain a black belt?

There are a lot of myths about what a black belt is and what it takes to achieve one.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## pgsmith (Jan 3, 2013)

In all of this, the OP has never specified what sort of martial art he is looking for. The term "Martial Arts" covers an incredibly large and diverse amount of space. It is virtually impossible to answer any questions unless things get much more specific. For instance, I've seen several variations of "martial arts instructors have to be businessmen" in this thread. While that is true for some martial arts, it is not true for others. Some, such as Japanese koryu, preclude that completely as it is impossible to do them for a living. Some can be done for very little money, some cost a lot more depending upon the situation. It varies a great deal depending upon the art, the region, and what is desired from the art.

  I just hate it when people take something large and colorful like the martial arts community, and try to force it into their own black and white definitions.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> 1. Aren't contracts dangerous? While I see the need for them from the school's side (it's a guarantee that they will get paid for "X" amount of time) what if something happens like you lose your job or if you get divorced and cannot afford to go to the school anymore?


No, not necessarily so.  As I specifically write in the rec.martial-arts Newbie's Guide, many contracts have a "lost job" or "moving" get out of jail free card.  



> 2. I have been pretty good at getting this out of the instructor's who's classes I watch. Most of them do not offer the information "up front" or "voluntarily", but they will answer if you ask them.


They usually don't bother because most newbies don't know enough about lineage to know if the instructor is making it up.  If the student asks, sure, whatever.  No reason not to tell, but most newbies basically only recognize the really famous practitioners.  This usually goes even for experienced practitioners of other martial arts.


> 3. Multi-Tier Pricing, to me, is ridiculous and scary! Let me give you just an example of one of the schools that I went to last week:
> You pay $110 a month, you get to attend two classes per week, but cannot test for your black belt- 24 month contract
> You pay $120 a month, you get to attend three classes per week and can test for your black belt- 36 month contract
> You pay $150 a month, you get to attend unlimited classes per week and can attend the "special" all-inclusive black belt class that is held on Saturday mornings. YAY! (insert dramatic music). -36 month contract
> -Now, if I am wrong, and this is normal and what I should be expecting everywhere I go, because I am seeing it nearly everywhere I go, then please tell me so I know that it's just ME that is being dis-trusting.


It is nothing to be scared of and is dead common across almost every business in the Western World.  Longer contracts mean longer guaranteed income which is, in a cost-profit balance, is worth sacrificing some slight profit margin for the ability to project revenue into the future and avoid marketing costs incurred by finding a student to fill that slot.  It's the same reason Cell Phone plans give you a break if you re-up for a 2 year contract.



> 4. Testing fees seem to always be in the $40-$50 range per test. So it is always expected when I go to a school and ask and I have never been surpised by the instrcutor's answer. Oh, except a few days ago when I attended a Kenpo school and the instructor said he doesn't charge for "stripe tests" and only charges $15 for belt tests. I have never seen them that cheap before. But his monthly fees were pretty expensive, so that is where it probably adds up to in the end.


Testing fees are dirt common and frequently the parent organization requires a fee to register the rank, which allows the student some portability and ability to pick up and train at an affiliated school elsewhere and still have his rank recognized.  There are, often yearly membership fees for parent orgs too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 3, 2013)

lklawson said:


> I have an honest question. How do you know how difficult it was or was not to attain a black belt?
> 
> There are a lot of myths about what a black belt is and what it takes to achieve one.
> 
> ...



I know it was difficult by gauging it on the fact that I did not have the patience to wait to be tested for it.


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 3, 2013)

pgsmith said:


> In all of this, the OP has never specified what sort of martial art he is looking for. The term "Martial Arts" covers an incredibly large and diverse amount of space. It is virtually impossible to answer any questions unless things get much more specific. For instance, I've seen several variations of "martial arts instructors have to be businessmen" in this thread. While that is true for some martial arts, it is not true for others. Some, such as Japanese koryu, preclude that completely as it is impossible to do them for a living. Some can be done for very little money, some cost a lot more depending upon the situation. It varies a great deal depending upon the art, the region, and what is desired from the art.
> 
> I just hate it when people take something large and colorful like the martial arts community, and try to force it into their own black and white definitions.



If had the choice from any in the world, the martial art that I would want to train in the most would be Hapkido, with Kung Fu coming in at a close second. Unfortunately, there aren't any of those types of schools within a 25-30 mile radius around me.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I know it was difficult by gauging it on the fact that I did not have the patience to wait to be tested for it.


I'm sorry to have to tell you this but that is a really awful way to measure the worth.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 3, 2013)

lklawson said:


> I'm sorry to have to tell you this but that is a really awful way to measure the worth.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I have a really awful way of measuring or doing anything martial arts-wise.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I have a really awful way of measuring or doing anything martial arts-wise.



Then you might want to reevaluate how you measure and do things.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 3, 2013)

Josh Oakley said:


> Then you might want to reevaluate how you measure and do things.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Trying....


----------



## rframe (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I know it was difficult by gauging it on the fact that I did not have the patience to wait to be tested for it.



Huh?  I'm totally confused now..

From what I've gathered from your other posts is you are supposedly frustrated, looking for a traditional dojo where quality is more important than anything else, and you dont like seeing things watered down for the masses.  You decry schools that market themselves and seek profitability.

Yet now you reveal that you think the definition of "hard" (in terms of getting a BB) is having to spend some time in rank before getting promoted?

You make no sense?

Quick honest question, do you think you are a superior martial artists and that your previous instructors just dont "get you" or are "holding you back"?  Is that what is causing your anger toward other schools that you think give out black belts rapidly, is because you really wish that you had a quick path to black belt and are effectively jealous of people who got a BB from a McDojo after two years?  Is it because you think you deserve to be promoted early but most other people really dont?

That sort of attitude is the only way I can make sense of your posts so far, I'm not saying that's you... but is it?

If so, just go join a McDojo and get yourself a meaningless black belt... it'll make you feel better.


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 3, 2013)

You got me all wrong. Sorry, don't feel like explaining it again either.


----------



## pgsmith (Jan 3, 2013)

> Unfortunately, there aren't any of those types of schools within a 25-30 mile radius around me.


  And you know this from dojo locator dot com? Just out of curiosity, I looked at the dojo that were listed in my area on that site. Not a single one that I would have recommended was listed.


----------



## Guy Preston (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> If had the choice from any in the world, the martial art that I would want to train in the most would be Hapkido, with Kung Fu coming in at a close second. Unfortunately, there aren't any of those types of schools within a 25-30 mile radius around me.



Kaygee,

You've lost me a bit here...

In your thread 'How far is too far' you started by saying you have a Tang Soo Do class about 25 minutes from you, if you don't have Hapkido this is a pretty good alternative - but you've said here there are no schools within a 25 mile radius.

If 25 mins is too far for you, that is probably half of your problem with not finding a class you like... Shoot, I drive around 25 minutes to the class I teach every lesson because the facility was better than closer ones... And that's only going into the next town to me. Most people who've done some serious training will have travelled for it at some point.


----------



## Carol (Jan 3, 2013)

Ninniku Dojo said:


> Kaygee,
> 
> You've lost me a bit here...
> 
> ...



I looked at Dojo locator and did not see anything to support the conclusion that a 25 mile distance categorically equates to a 25 minute trip.  I did a quick search in my area and a school that was described as "13.5 miles" from my home.   There is no way I could make that drive in anywhere close to 13.5 minutes.   Perhaps it is that distance as the proverbial crow flies, but the rest of us have to rely on an automobile   A quick google map of directions to the destination says the routes were 21 to 38 miles in length (depending on if you preferred highway or back roads), with all choices reporting a drive time of approx 45 minutes "in current traffic".  Given its 8:15 PM here now and traffic snarls are minimal at this hour, I don't think it unreasonable to posit that such a drive could easily equate to more than one hour in the traffic associated with the evening rush.


----------



## Guy Preston (Jan 3, 2013)

Carol said:


> I looked at Dojo locator and did not see anything to support the conclusion that a 25 mile distance categorically equates to a 25 minute trip.  I did a quick search in my area and a school that was described as "13.5 miles" from my home.  Perhaps it is that distance as the proverbial crow flies, but the rest of us have to rely on an automobile   A quick google map of directions to the destination says the routes were 21 to 38 miles, all choices equated to approx 45 minutes "in current traffic".  Given its 8:15 PM here now and traffic snarls are minimal at this hour, I don't think it unreasonable to posit that such a drive could easily equate more than one hour in the traffic associated with the evening rush.



Sorry Carol, the post I'm referring too actially says the school is 25 minutes from him, if as you've said above a school showing as 13.5 miles away could take 45 mins to reach, that would suggest that if he could reach this school in 25 mins it is potentially much closer - hence the lack of clarity around saying that there are no schools within a 25 mile radius...

Kaygee, have found the following in Philly searching against North East, any of these any good to you?

Have also spotted lots of Aikido classes in different locations if you fancy trying Japanese MA?


Golden Breath American Tai Chi
More Info
1928 Cottman Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19111
8.3 mi
(215) 745-4047 Directions


Rocco Mixed Martial Arts
More Info
1810 Grant Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19115
12
11.1 mi
(215) 778-2517 Directions

Warrior Boxing Gym
More Info
1209 Mifflin St
Philadelphia, PA 19148
1.8 mi
(267) 348-7465 Directions


Urban Defense Center
More Info
725 N 6th St
Philadelphia, PA 19123
9
1.2 mi
(267) 259-3936 Directions


Oon Karate
More Info
7048 Torresdale Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19135
3
8.7 mi
(215) 543-3818 Directions


Hikari
More Info
1040 N American St
Philadelphia, PA 19123
2
1.6 mi
(215) 923-2654 Directions


The Lions Den Martial Arts and Fitness Center
More Info
7260 Frankford Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19135
8
9.0 mi
(215) 332-5466 Directions


Shin Karate
More Info
709 W Oregon Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19148
1
2.6 mi
(215) 468-1111 Directions


Martial Posture Martial Arts Center
More Info
2100 Chestnut St 2nd Floor
Philadelphia, PA 19103
10
0.7 mi
(888) 671-5672 Directions


Amerikick Karate
More Info
1617 Snyder Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19145
3
2.0 mi
(215) 462-2467 Directions


Tang Soo Do Karate Academy
More Info
7516 Haverford Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19151
7
6.0 mi
(215) 473-7900 Directions


Red Tiger Taekwon-Do
More Info
7530 Frankford Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19136
2
9.4 mi
(215) 332-1003 Directions


Philadelphia Uechi Ryu Karate
More Info
7147 Germantown Ave
Philadelphia, PA 19119
2
7.5 mi
(215) 248-4855 Directions


Amerikick Karate Studios
More Info
8025 Roosevelt Blvd Second Floor
Philadelphia, PA 19152
3
9.2 mi
(215) 708-2467 Directions


Moo Duk Kwan Karate School
More Info
3003 Byberry Rd
Philadelphia, PA 19154
13.6 mi
(215) 637-3132 Directions


International Military
More Info
13451 Damar Dr
Philadelphia, PA 19116
1
14.1 mi
(215) 856-3008 Directions


Osagame Martial Arts Fitness
More Info
1168 S Broad St
Philadelphia, PA 19148
1
1.1 mi
(267) 357-1262 Directions


Red Tiger TKD
More Info
1912 Welsh Rd
Philadelphia, PA 19115
1
10.8 mi
(215) 969-9962 Directions

Cheung's Hung Gar Kung Fu Acad
More Info
1012 Cherry St # 4
Philadelphia, PA 19107
0.4 mi
(215) 629-1654 Directions

Philadelphia Wing Chun Kung Fu
More Info
117 N 10th St
Philadelphia, PA 19107
0.5 mi
(215) 351-6227 Directions


----------



## Carol (Jan 3, 2013)

Ninniku Dojo said:


> Sorry Carol, the post I'm referring too actially says the school is 25 minutes from him, if as you've said above a school showing as 13.5 miles away could take 45 mins to reach, that would suggest that if he could reach this school in 25 mins it is potentially much closer - hence the lack of clarity around saying that there are no schools within a 25 mile radius...



Apologies, I misunderstood :asian:


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 3, 2013)

Ninniku Dojo said:


> Sorry Carol, the post I'm referring too actially says the school is 25 minutes from him, if as you've said above a school showing as 13.5 miles away could take 45 mins to reach, that would suggest that if he could reach this school in 25 mins it is potentially much closer - hence the lack of clarity around saying that there are no schools within a 25 mile radius...
> 
> Kaygee, have found the following in Philly searching against North East, any of these any good to you?
> 
> ...




I do appreciate you taking the time to look for me. But I have either been to these schools above, or they are down town. (I out comments in red text) Down town Philly sucks! Have you ever watched Parking Wars? If not, watch an episode or two.


----------



## arnisador (Jan 3, 2013)

What does Philadelphia have to do with "We Are a Black Belt School?"


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 3, 2013)

arnisador said:


> What does Philadelphia have to do with "We Are a Black Belt School?"



Nothing......


----------



## WaterGal (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> 1. Aren't contracts dangerous? While I see the need for them from the school's side (it's a guarantee that they will get paid for "X" amount of time) what if something happens like you lose your job or if you get divorced and cannot afford to go to the school anymore?



This is something that's important to ask about.  A reasonable school will let you pause or break the contract if you move, lose your job, get injured, etc.



> Multi-Tier Pricing, to me, is ridiculous and scary! Let me give you just an example of one of the schools that I went to last week:
> You pay $110 a month, you get to attend two classes per week, but cannot test for your black belt- 24 month contract
> You pay $120 a month, you get to attend three classes per week and can test for your black belt- 36 month contract
> You pay $150 a month, you get to attend unlimited classes per week and can attend the "special" all-inclusive black belt class that is held on Saturday mornings. YAY! (insert dramatic music). -36 month contract



I think tiered pricing is normal to some extent, but that seems a little complicated to me.  I think I'd be uncomfortable with that, too.  

Our school does have different price points based on how long you sign up for (plus extra if you want to study multiple styles), but they all come with unlimited classes, every class is offered at least 4x a week, and anybody can test for their black belt if they're ready.  And we're about to start a special black belt/competition class, too, but that'll just require a tryout to show you're serious and know your stuff.  Does that seem reasonable to you?



> 5. I thank you for your advice here. It seems that a good amount of the instructors I have seen lately, cannot do half of the stuff they are asking their students to do. And these are instructors in their mid 50's, which is not that old nowadays. Not to mention, I have been to some schools where the 60 year old instructor is still doing split kicks in the air. But I know everyone is different. In the school that I just left, none of the three instructors could perform any of the techniques we were being taught. One tried hard (he was about 55) but because he was away from the school for weeks at a time, he was always "tight" and such.



Yeah, I hear you.  Getting older is inevitable, and teaching martial arts isn't usually a job that comes with health insurance, so if you tear your ACL or whatever you're kind of screwed. But I still think it's important that teachers try to stay fit and be able to do most of what they're teaching, even as they get older.  They need to be an example to their students, and to be able to demonstrate what they're talking about.  I don't have a lot of respect for teachers that weigh 300lbs and can't even do a high kick!



> 7. My former school tested everyone every three months, up to 3rd gup and then tested every 3rd and 2nd gup every six months, all the way up to 1st gup. No one ever failed a test! It was basically just for money. This is where *my* problem arose with the school. It became more of a "rule" or a "right" to test than a privilege.



Yeah, I think you should only be allowed to test if you actually know your stuff.  Which could be after two months, or could be after four months, or even more (I taught a couple 4-year olds at my old school, and it was 5 or 6 months before their first test).  The only time I've ever seen anybody fail was because they got stage freight and froze up, but that's because the students that weren't ready didn't test in the first place.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 4, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I have a really awful way of measuring or doing anything martial arts-wise.


What I mean is, you were objecting to the "new" schools by saying that black belts were too easy to get and you wished that it was more like in the "old days" presumably by assuming that the "old days" were a lot harder to get a BB.  But your way of measuring what the "old days" were like involves measuring your personal level of patience against a modern school.

To be honest, that's really messed up logic.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Guy Preston (Jan 4, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> Moo Duk Kwan Karate School
> More Info
> 3003 Byberry Rd
> Philadelphia, PA 19154
> ...



That's great news, are you going to stick with this club? If so post in a month or 2 and update on how you're getting on...


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 6, 2013)

Ninniku Dojo said:


> That's great news, are you going to stick with this club? If so post in a month or 2 and update on how you're getting on...



That's the plan! And I will!  :drinkbeer


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (Jan 6, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> Just kidding, I know that doesn't exist. But does the phrase "We Are  A Black Belt School"  mean an automatic GTFO sign?



Well, quite frankly, I am under the impression that if there is a sign in or on the dojo that says "We are a Black Belt School" that means it's a McDojo filled with black belts including black belts (jr. black belts) under 16 years of age. Not to mention Karatekas clad in Black, Red, Green, Blue, or multi-coloured gis to look good no matter how good or bad their Karate is. On the other hand if the dojo is just a Black Belt school, it can only mean it is run by a high ranking Sensei (8th-10th dan) who only teaches Black Belts, traditonal methods. Maybe on the side he/she has assistant instructors who teaches kyu belt adults and children. I know that where my Sensei trains has that system. However, it is far away from you, it's the Kenshi-Kai dojo in Hamilton, Ont. Canada.


----------



## MJS (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> If had the choice from any in the world, the martial art that I would want to train in the most would be Hapkido, with Kung Fu coming in at a close second. Unfortunately, there aren't any of those types of schools within a 25-30 mile radius around me.



Do you have other options?


----------



## J W (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> Moo Duk Kwan Karate School
> More Info
> 3003 Byberry Rd
> Philadelphia, PA 19154
> ...



Is that the "Minger & Lee" school? I work in that area and drive by there fairly often. Thought about checking it out a few years ago, but then decided to go in a different direction. 



Kaygee said:


> If had the choice from any in the world, the martial art that I would want to train in the most would be Hapkido, with Kung Fu coming in at a close second. Unfortunately, there aren't any of those types of schools within a 25-30 mile radius around me.



Not sure what type of Kung Fu you are interested in, but there is a Wing Chun school in Hatboro (full disclosure, they are affiliated with the school I attend downtown). As for Hapkido, I can't make any solid recommendations but I kinda remember driving by maybe Cottman and Frankford (I think?) not too long ago and noticing a sign for a Hapkido school in the second floor window of one of the buildings around there. Unfortunately my memory is a bit shaky on that one, but you might drive around that area and see if you can find it (that is, if you want to study Hapkido badly enough to follow a lead from a stranger's foggy memory). 

Of course, if you have decided to commit to the TKD school, please disregard this info.


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

J W said:


> Is that the "Minger & Lee" school? I work in that area and drive by there fairly often. Thought about checking it out a few years ago, but then decided to go in a different direction.



Yes!



J W said:


> Not sure what type of Kung Fu you are interested in, but there is a Wing Chun school in Hatboro (full disclosure, they are affiliated with the school I attend downtown). As for Hapkido, I can't make any solid recommendations but I kinda remember driving by maybe Cottman and Frankford (I think?) not too long ago and noticing a sign for a Hapkido school in the second floor window of one of the buildings around there. Unfortunately my memory is a bit shaky on that one, but you might drive around that area and see if you can find it (that is, if you want to study Hapkido badly enough to follow a lead from a stranger's foggy memory).
> 
> Of course, if you have decided to commit to the TKD school, please disregard this info.



Hatboro is pretty far from me and I work in Horsham, so I would be driving to the same area twice right after each other and home for only about 30-45 minutes. That is kind of goofy, in my humble opinion.

I will look around Cottman and Frankford, but that area is a little crazy to look around in (traffic wise and traffic light wise with the island there).

Thank you!


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2013)

No school/club/gym etc in the UK would have the word 'minger' in it lol! In fact if that was anyone's name they'd change it. I do realise you don't use the word the same as us and am just posting for a smile or two.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=minger


----------



## J W (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> Hatboro is pretty far from me and I work in Horsham, so I would be driving to the same area twice right after each other and home for only about 30-45 minutes. That is kind of goofy, in my humble opinion.
> 
> I will look around Cottman and Frankford, but that area is a little crazy to look around in (traffic wise and traffic light wise with the island there).
> 
> Thank you!



Yeah, sorry to be so vague about that Hapkido school. Hope I'm not sending you on a wild goose chase. 

I don't find myself in that area too often, but if I manage to jog my memory better or happen to drive by it again, I'll let you know.


----------



## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

I looked for a while and could not find a hapkido,not only on Cotman avenue or in the surrounding areas, but in Philadelphia period!

Thanks though.


----------



## Gentle Fist (Jan 7, 2013)

If you are getting something out of it (fitness, fighting skills, etc...)  then that is all that matters.  Black Belt means nothing without heart and guts behind it...


----------

