# Mass or Definition?



## Alexa (Dec 4, 2018)

Hello guys, i just want to ask you is it better to do the *gym workout with weights* or *street workout like push ups etc...* for martial arts? Thanks


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## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2018)

Welcome to MT, I'm curious as to why you call it a 'street' workout? Are you thinking of something different from the usual workout of push ups, sit ups?


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## Christopher Adamchek (Dec 4, 2018)

It depends on your martial arts goals mostly 
I prefer getting people leaner with martial arts workout and basic exercises like pushups, but weight training can be advantageous. Personally ive been hitting the weights 2 months out of the year to keep muscle mass in check and generally focus on leaner rather than bigger muscle.  

Depending on your fighting style or art you might want to be bigger or leaner or have more powerful kicks or punches and would therefore balance weight training vs other exercises.


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## Danny T (Dec 4, 2018)

Alexa said:


> Hello guys, i just want to ask you is it better to do the *gym workout with weights* or *street workout like push ups etc...* for martial arts? Thanks


You ask about Mass or Definition but then go on to ask about weights or calisthenics & plyometrics. 
What is your goal for training? If you are wanting to get stronger then you have to train with something heavy.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 4, 2018)

Seeing as this is the JKD section...Bruce Lee did both...and then some

Look for
Bruce Lee The Art of Expressing the Human Body 

and

Bruce Lee's Fighting Method: The Complete Edition 

and

Chinese Gung Fu: The Philosophical Art of Self-Defense


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## MetalBoar (Dec 4, 2018)

I agree with the others, what are your goals? Do you have easy access to a reasonably well equipped gym? Personally I think weight training is almost always useful and becomes more and more valuable as you get older. If you're young and recover really quickly you can add some weight lifting with almost no risk of over training. As you get older I've found that strength gains are a lot easier to maintain than the adaptations the body makes to "cardio" and the research shows that it's extremely important if you want to stay functional when you're elderly. The other nice thing about weight lifting is that it's so easy to add to whatever else you're doing. You can do a really effective session with weights in a very short time if you've got a focused, well thought out routine and you just go do it.

Edit:
Looking at the title I just want to add that muscular definition is essentially a product of two thing; 1) how much muscle you have 2) how much fat is covering the muscle, so there's no reason you can't have both. In fact, if definition is your goal weight training is going to be a key ingredient to getting it as fast as possible. There are other factors, such as muscle belly length, that can impact how much muscle or how little fat you need to be carrying to have a lot of really super obvious definition but you can't control that part of the equation anyway.

Now, how lean you are becomes a _lot_ more important if you are interested in competition because every extra pound of unnecessary fat is one more pound you have to move around the ring (or Octagon, or whatever). If your sport has weight divisions this is even more important as it's going to be tough if you have to go up against someone who weighs what you do but carries 10 more pounds of muscle and commensurately less fat.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2018)

Both. And you cycle them.


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## Buka (Dec 4, 2018)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Alexa. 

You might want to read up on functional strength. Or you can go the old Billy Crystal route...


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## MetalBoar (Dec 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Both. And you cycle them.


I'm curious to know what your perspective on cycling them entails. 

I know I read a study done on a Canadian hockey team that did extensive body composition testing. It found that, at the pro or near pro level of the team (don't remember the details), that when you looked at all the work on the ice with practice plus the games, the athletes actually lost muscle muscle faster if they tried to add weight training to the mix while hockey was in season because they were already in a state of over work (they already knew that they lost muscle during the hockey season without strength training). They determined that the optimal program was to put on as much muscle as possible off season and then do no strength training on season and do as much as they could to support recovery. I'm not sure how to apply this to MA training, though I guess I can see where I'd start if I was designing a training routine for pro or pro-am fighters. Most young people who aren't working at that level aren't particularly close to over training in my experience. 

Or do you mean something else entirely?


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> I'm curious to know what your perspective on cycling them entails.
> 
> I know I read a study done on a Canadian hockey team that did extensive body composition testing. It found that, at the pro or near pro level of the team (don't remember the details), that when you looked at all the work on the ice with practice plus the games, the athletes actually lost muscle muscle faster if they tried to add weight training to the mix while hockey was in season because they were already in a state of over work (they already knew that they lost muscle during the hockey season without strength training). They determined that the optimal program was to put on as much muscle as possible off season and then do no strength training on season and do as much as they could to support recovery. I'm not sure how to apply this to MA training, though I guess I can see where I'd start if I was designing a training routine for pro or pro-am fighters. Most young people who aren't working at that level aren't particularly close to over training in my experience.
> 
> Or do you mean something else entirely?



Yeah basically the same. When you are out from a fight you do muscle building. As you approach fights you start to do more cardio and explosiveness.

But you could cycle weekly. So rest, strength train then build towards explosiveness by the end of the week.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 5, 2018)

I think both are helpful. I've trained many years with weights and bulking up, and contrary to alot of myths I have never found that it slowed me down. If you train with super slow movements that may train you to be slow, but keeping on top of your mobility and flexibility is important.

On karate days it's more calisthenics, pushups, bodyweight squats etc, do develop endurance and explosive movement.

Both types develop different aspects. Ultimately depends on your aim


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## MetalBoar (Dec 5, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> I think both are helpful. I've trained many years with weights and bulking up, and contrary to alot of myths I have never found that it slowed me down. *If you train with super slow movements that may train you to be slow,* but keeping on top of your mobility and flexibility is important.
> 
> On karate days it's more calisthenics, pushups, bodyweight squats etc, do develop endurance and explosive movement.
> 
> Both types develop different aspects. Ultimately depends on your aim


Nah, even weight training with a _very _slow protocol has no risk of making you slow. You just need to spend enough time practicing your art at the speed you want to use it, which is true whether you even lift weights at all.


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## CB Jones (Dec 5, 2018)

It comes down to what you want more fast twitch muscles for more explosiveness and power or slow twitch for more stamina.

2 ways to build fast twitch muscle:

Super heavy weight done at low reps, light weight done rapidly, and/or explosive movement such as sprints, jumping, etc...

Slow twitch develops with medium resistance at high reps and/or extended exercise at a fixed pace.

Finding that happy medium for explosiveness vs stamina is different for everyone.

It’s all about the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 5, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> Nah, even weight training with a _very _slow protocol has no risk of making you slow. You just need to spend enough time practicing your art at the speed you want to use it, which is true whether you even lift weights at all.



Ah yeah true, in the context of practicing your martial arts techniques full speed as well, super-slow tempo weights wouldn't affect speed I wouldn't think, I forgot to include that haha [emoji14]


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 6, 2018)

You do both.   NHS guidelines lay out a portion of cardio based exercise, resistance exercise and i think strength exercise, but that might be under resistance. 

Basically, dont neglect cardio based work out and dont neglect strength/resistance based work out, both are needed for a healthy body. 


As for aesthetic, thats up to you how far you want to build your muscles and which weight you choose to stay at in the health range same with body fat etc.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 6, 2018)

Alexa said:


> *gym workout with weights* or *street workout like push ups etc...* for martial arts?


My daughter was 2016 international Pole dance champ. 2 weeks ago, she visited me. I was doing some free weight in my garage. I asked her to try. She could not lift that weight over her head. My daughter asked me to a hand stance. I could not do it.

What does that mean?


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## MetalBoar (Dec 6, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My daughter was 2016 international Pole dance champ. 2 weeks ago, she visited me. I was doing some free weight in my garage. I asked her to try. She could not do it. My daughter asked me to a hand stance. I could not do it.
> 
> What does that mean?


First I'd ask how much weight you asked her to lift and whether she's ever worked with free weights before. Weight lifting does require skill and free weights require a lot more skill than machine weights. Pole dancing and gymnastics take a lot more skill than either. I'm sure I could teach your daughter to lift weights much faster than she could teach me to pole dance even if she's the worlds best teacher. I'm also sure that she could lift a small amount of weight with good form with only a few minutes instruction where I couldn't do a hand stand without a lot of practice. Still, the nice thing about weight lifting is that stronger muscles are useful for almost all physical activities and weight lifting is the fastest and safest way I know to get stronger. I'm sure that someone who lifts weights and has developed some strength can learn to pole dance much faster than if they had just been sitting on the couch.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 6, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My daughter was 2016 international Pole dance champ. 2 weeks ago, she visited me. I was doing some free weight in my garage. I asked her to try. She could not lift that weight over her head. My daughter asked me to a hand stance. I could not do it.
> 
> What does that mean?


That's insane Kung Fu Wang, such strength, balance, control and technique!

I'd say it's a matter of specificity, as in lifting weights makes you better at lifting weights, and poledancing will make you better at poledancing. There is the skill component which is important, and the strength/technique is very specific to that activity.

But there is definitely crossover, lifting weights would help you in poledancing and even vice versa, each will help you gain strength in their own way, but I guess there are limitations to the benefits they can be for each other. You can use each as an assistance to the other, but that may be limited, and may be more one sided from one to the other (ie activity A may provide better gains for activity B, but activity B may not provide as many gains for activity A. No idea if that made sense haha)


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## TMA17 (Dec 14, 2018)

Good question and these were good answers.

I want to get a bench press, but have relied on push ups over the last few years.  I have one kettlebell and two curling bars.  

I generally prefer to stay lean and fast.  I've always been naturally thin anyway so for me to bulk up would require a lot of weight lifting.  I'm 6" 160-165 lbs.


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## pdg (Dec 16, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I'm 6" 160-165 lbs



At that height and weight I have to ask how wide you are, or whether you were laying down for the measurement...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2018)

pdg said:


> At that height and weight I have to ask how wide you are, or whether you were laying down for the measurement...


If you check out a BMI calculator (bogus I know, but good for overall comparison, his weight is actually considered healthy


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## TMA17 (Dec 16, 2018)

pdg said:


> At that height and weight I have to ask how wide you are, or whether you were laying down for the measurement...



? I'm 6' tall and when i get on the scale it says I'm 160-165.  How wide?  I'm a lean type build.  Not wide.

My BMI is 22-23 and it says it  should be between 18-25.


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## pdg (Dec 16, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> If you check out a BMI calculator (bogus I know, but good for overall comparison, his weight is actually considered healthy



Really?

That's a healthy weight for someone 6 inches tall?


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## TMA17 (Dec 16, 2018)

LMAO I just caught that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2018)

pdg said:


> Really?
> 
> That's a healthy weight for someone 6 inches tall?


That flew straight over my head. Thanks, gave me a good chuckle


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## Findinghisownway (Dec 30, 2018)

My advice experiment with both,and find what works best for you personally


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

Xue Sheng lists some great books.     And I agree with Findinghisownway that you have to find what works for you best.
I will add to that also though.    You have to find a happy medium and what makes you happy.    What do you feel comfortable walking around looking like and feeling.   Do you feel healthy with muscle mass?   Do you feel healthy being lean?   That should probably be part of your deciding process.   

Lifting heavy with low reps as in traditional weight training tends to put on mass with a diet that supports it.   Usually you end up sacrifice stamina.   It's hard to move that mass around and keep it up for a while.   You can do lighter weights and higher reps.   Working on fast twitch muscles like someone else suggested.    Which is my preference and body shape I wish to keep.   

For martial arts and what I personally like to look like.   I prefer large movement work outs... vs. isolated.   And using more body weight.  
I like doing kettle bells... or rope ring workouts.    I feel like the explosiveness benefits my martial arts... while also giving me strength.   Additionally when it's a exercise that uses multiple muscles in one movement... it also helps supporting muscles and stabilizing muscles to grow.   Betters my cordination and balance.     

Cardio.... I love running...  but I find a rower... Concept 2 kicks my butt.    But it gives me a total body work out.   Burpees is another thing.    Burpess only concerns me with older people in doing them with correct form.   You can cause lower back issues if you get sloppy.   We don't want injuries.


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