# Mixed age group classes needs to stop



## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

I know a lot of schools have classes that are open to all students from their minimum age up to any aged adult who wants to join.

I was part of one of those dojos, and it took Cobra Kai and Stingray for me to really see how messed up it is to have children and adults in the same class.

1. Different age groups have different requirements for what they need to learn effectively. This means if you have a 5 yr old and a 15 yr old in the same class one or neither is not getting an effective education in the subject. Same for a 15 and a 30 yr old in the same class.

2. It’s simply inappropriate for children to be in close social interactions with adults who are complete strangers. On the mild side it results in children believing they’re more adult than they are causing them to make other decisions they aren’t mentally equipped to make yet. On the other end the most horrific end, a child is physically taken advantage of by a predatory adult.

Family classes where parents are attending  the same classes as their kids I think is fine as the parents most likely are there just to spend time with their kids rather than actually trying to learn the martial art themselves, and the parents are able to watch over their kids directly.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I know a lot of schools have classes that are open to all students from their minimum age up to any aged adult who wants to join.
> 
> I was part of one of those dojos, and it took Cobra Kai and Stingray for me to really see how messed up it is to have children and adults in the same class.
> 
> ...


I've spent time in exactly one TKD dojang and it had a whole gallery just for the parents to observe class.  It was constantly full and I realized that as a big drawing factor for parents.  If I had kids I'd feel welcome there.

Even if you are dropping your kid off because you've got RL stuff to do, you know other parents are watching it all.

So to me that's decent measure of a school.  Who is allowed to watch?  Some places are very private and sketchy with "training"...even the Boy Scouts have this problem.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I've spent time in exactly one TKD dojang and it had a whole gallery just for the parents to observe class.  It was constantly full and I realized that you as a big drawing factor for parents.
> 
> Even if you are dropping your kid off because you've got RL stuff to do, you know other parents are watching it all.
> 
> So to me that's decent measure of a school.  Who is allowed to watch?  Some places are very private and sketchy with "training"...even the Boy Scouts have this problem.


Watching from a lobby, or something isn’t the same as being a part of the class and having the adults work together. Which it’s much more likely to have enough adults to all be partners in a family class than a mixed age group.

Parents could say “oh what were you and that man talking about while doing that drill?” And the teen being a teen could very well lie, “oh just getting some pointers” and before you know it they’re dating and when the parent thinks their kid is with friends, they’re with a 35 year old creep who can’t get a date with someone even close to their age.

I don’t think there’s a single argument that can justify taking such a risk.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Watching from a lobby, or something isn’t the same as being a part of the class and having the adults work together. Which it’s much more likely to have enough adults to all be partners in a family class than a mixed age group.
> 
> Parents could say “oh what were you and that man talking about while doing that drill?” And the teen being a teen could very well lie, “oh just getting some pointers” and before you know it they’re dating and when the parent thinks their kid is with friends, they’re with a 35 year old creep who can’t get a date with someone even close to their age.
> 
> I don’t think there’s a single argument that can justify taking such a risk.


I doubt many parents of kids of consensual age whether it's 16 or 19 even observe classes.  That age is off to the races.

In other words I don't think that sort of thing is a martial arts school phenom.  It happens right in high school.  After school programs, and down the list somewhere are after school MA classes.  At a certain point the parents aren't taking a risk, they literally have no control.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I doubt many parents of kids of consensual age whether it's 16 or 19 even observe classes.  That age is off to the races.
> 
> In other words I don't think that sort of thing is a martial arts school phenom.  It happens right in high school.  After school programs, and down the list somewhere are after school MA classes.  At a certain point the parents aren't taking a risk, they literally have no control.


You’re right parents don’t have control.
The school owner has that control though, and the responsibility not to endanger anyone in any form if they can avoid it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

I don't know anywhere that has children training with adults in any style. 

The worse thing about children is the chagrin when you realise they are better than you (that is 99.9% a joke)



GojuTommy said:


> Parents could say “oh what were you and that man talking about while doing that drill?” And the teen being a teen could very well lie, “oh just getting some pointers” and before you know it they’re dating and when the parent thinks their kid is with friends, they’re with a 35 year old creep who can’t get a date with someone even close to their age.


 Is there a reason you are so focused on this idea? It's quite worrying actually that you go down to this rather than injuries, lack of concentration in class, disruption etc. that can come from having children in a class. This is twice you've brought it up on this thread, once in another.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know anywhere that has children training with adults in any style.
> 
> The worse thing about children is the chagrin when you realise they are better than you (that is 99.9% a joke)
> 
> ...


Because outside of the internet there are few ways for random strangers to get into contact with children, and most injuries will be forgotten about a couple of weeks after the injury is incurred.

Lack of concentration and disruption is an issue that will still exist in children only classes and a good instructor won’t have much issue mitigating those issues.

And there have been a frighteningly high number of examples of people revealing that martial arts schools are where an under aged victim met their predator.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Because outside of the internet there are few ways for random strangers to get into contact with children, and most injuries will be forgotten about a couple of weeks after the injury is incurred.
> 
> Lack of concentration and disruption is an issue that will still exist in children only classes and a good instructor won’t have much issue mitigating those issues.
> 
> And there have been a frighteningly high number of examples of people revealing that martial arts schools are where an under aged victim met their predator.


I've been teaching martial arts for a very long time, children and adults. I've never found the problems you envisage, not do we have a high rate of predating on children. This is because we don't have mixed children's and adults classes, they don't work well for other reasons. 

A  17 year old is not a child, I've taught soldiers that age, it's over the age of consent as well here. To make it seem that there is something improper in a 17 year old teaching an older person in a class situation is a huge reach. To think it's improper is odd.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Family classes where parents are attending the same classes as their kids I think is fine as the parents most likely are there just to spend time with their kids rather than actually trying to learn the martial art themselves, and the parents are able to watch over their kids directly.


This was the only way we trained kids with adults.  There's a lot of positive things that come from this type of mixture.  Kids and adults behaved better.  The activity allowed the kids to bond with the parents.  It gives them something in common a family activity.  It was also the best deal for pricing in our school.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know anywhere that has children training with adults in any style.


Depending on what you consider a kid, in the states a lot of schools mix the teen/adult classes together due to a lack of adults interested. This means that 13 year olds are training with 40 year olds.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Depending on what you consider a kid, in the states a lot of schools mix the teen/adult classes together due to a lack of adults interested. This means that 13 year olds are training with 40 year olds.


I don't see a problem with that. It doesn't hurt adults to train with higher ranks younger than them either.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> On the mild side it results in children believing they’re more adult than they are causing them to make other decisions they aren’t mentally equipped to make yet. On the other end the most horrific end, a child is physically taken advantage of by a predatory adult.


I'm not sure about this.  It's usually someone on staff that takes advantage of a child. I think this would be more difficult with more adults around.  My experience has been that having more adults makes it difficult avoid watchful eyes.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I've been teaching martial arts for a very long time, children and adults. I've never found the problems you envisage, not do we have a high rate of predating on children. This is because we don't have mixed children's and adults classes, they don't work well for other reasons.
> 
> A  17 year old is not a child, I've taught soldiers that age, it's over the age of consent as well here. To make it seem that there is something improper in a 17 year old teaching an older person in a class situation is a huge reach. To think it's improper is odd.


17 is a child. Being a soldier doesn’t make someone an adult. There are 12 year old soldiers all over the world, they certainly aren’t adults.
Personally I consider 24 yr olds to be children still. 
However for legal reasons neither of our opinions makes a difference.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I don't see a problem with that. It doesn't hurt adults to train with higher ranks younger than them either.


So you think a 14 year old can provide sufficient resistance to a grown adult to make working together on testing techniques beneficial for the adult?


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure about this.  It's usually someone on staff that takes advantage of a child. I think this would be more difficult with more adults around.  My experience has been that having more adults makes it difficult avoid watchful eyes.


It most certainly is the most prevalent, often the head instructor/owner as well, but it’s hard to know, until it comes out.

An adult sets their sights on a kid, and just knowing their name gives them a whole new opportunity to connect online and being someone they do actually know from the real world means they’re less likely to be skeptical of the person’s motivations.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So you think a 14 year old can provide sufficient resistance to a grown adult to make working together on testing techniques beneficial for the adult?


That's not the question is it though, the 14 year old can be a 6ft rugby player, the 40 year old 5ft and 6st wet through 😄
A good instructor will pair people up according to their strengths, no class of whatever age, not even an MMA class are going to match exactly.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> That's not the question is it though, the 14 year old can be a 6ft rugby player, the 40 year old 5ft and 6st wet through 😄
> A good instructor will pair people up according to their strengths, no class of whatever age, not even an MMA class are going to match exactly.


Sure but if there’s 3 adults and 15 kids there’s an adult getting paired with an adult, and it’s unlikely the child is going a baby hulk. 
The average 14 yr old is going to be much smaller than the average adult, but sure make up whatever unlikely scenario you have to, to try and justify 14 and 40 year olds in the same classes.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So you think a 14 year old can provide sufficient resistance to a grown adult to make working together on testing techniques beneficial for the adult?


This is a pairing issue. Simply switch partners so that the adult can do the same drill with another adult.  Most adults don't mind going light for someone weaker or younger.  If the adult is the weaker one, then the teen does the same for that adult.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> A good instructor will pair people up according to their strengths


I did this as well. This allow some of the teens to keep growing.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Sure but if there’s 3 adults and 15 kids there’s an adult getting paired with an adult, and it’s unlikely the child is going a baby hulk.
> The average 14 yr old is going to be much smaller than the average adult, but sure make up whatever unlikely scenario you have to, to try and justify 14 and 40 year olds in the same classes.


It's not impossible  you just need to have some give and take with a little bit of "community spirit."


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is a pairing issue. Simply switch partners so that the adult can do the same drill with another adult.  Most adults don't mind going light for someone weaker or younger.  If the adult is the weaker one, then the teen does the same for that adult.


Again, if you’re having to go out of your way to make it kinda work, one or both of those students are likely not getting the most of out the experience.


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## Holmejr (Oct 24, 2022)

I’ve only been in one school/class that had all ages in one setting, it was a TKD held at a local church. Obviously super family oriented. Never was an adult paired with a child and never was an adult other than parent left alone with a child. It seemed to work in that setting. I’m pretty sure, other than that, no other school/class I attended had youth classes.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> I’ve only been in one school/class that had all ages in one setting, it was a TKD held at a local church. Obviously super family oriented. Never was an adult paired with a child and never was an adult other than parent left alone with a child. It seemed to work in that setting. I’m pretty sure, other than that, no other school/class I attended had youth classes.


Look up karate class on YT, you’ll see plenty of videos of teens and adults in classes together, some may even show young children with adults.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Again, if you’re having to go out of your way to make it kinda work, one or both of those students are likely not getting the most of out the experience.


I guess it depends on what you are looking at when you are talking about "getting the most out of the experience."  I look at the total of what is gain. A lot of my own kung fu knowledge came from helping others which forced me to have a deeper understanding of what I do.  It was no longer good enough to  say "It comes natural to me."

I understand some of the risks that you have brought up.  There will always be a risk, the most we can do is minimize it.  The best way at the school should be that no one is left alone with a student.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> and never was an adult other than parent left alone with a child.


This is the one that I have always stuck to even in non martial arts settings.  While I was typing, it sounded as if someone was shooting a gun close by.  I hope they were shooting targets.  Not sure though  it's 11 PM here.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is a pairing issue. Simply switch partners so that the adult can do the same drill with another adult.  Most adults don't mind going light for someone weaker or younger.  If the adult is the weaker one, then the teen does the same for that adult.


We've always done this in grappling for MMA, the stronger more powerful types need to drill with weaker partners so they learn not to use their strength but their techniques. They often forget strength alone will not help in competition when they are matched with an equally strong opponent so techniques all the way! A weaker partner gains confidence when their techniques work against a bigger stronger non compliant (  a broadly non compliant partner not full on when one is much weaker but enough) partner. The
I imagine like us you switch partners regularly too.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Look up karate class on YT, you’ll see plenty of videos of teens and adults in classes together, some may even show young children with adults.


Do you base your opinions on what you see in YouTube?
On social media it's the empty can that makes the most noise, most reputable martial arts places don't bother with it so you won't see the worthy stuff.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Because outside of the internet there are few ways for random strangers to get into contact with children, and most injuries will be forgotten about a couple of weeks after the injury is incurred.
> 
> Lack of concentration and disruption is an issue that will still exist in children only classes and a good instructor won’t have much issue mitigating those issues.
> 
> And there have been a frighteningly high number of examples of people revealing that martial arts schools are where an under aged victim met their predator.


Nor will a good instructor have issue with mitigating the risk of children and adults mixing. Each age range it taught in an appropriate manner. 
Show us examples of schools and predators.


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## Holmejr (Oct 25, 2022)

Look up karate class on YT, you’ll see plenty of videos of teens and adults in classes together, some may even show young children with adults.

I was speaking of my particular experience. No doubt, one can probably find anything one wants on YT/web to match a narrative.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Look up karate class on YT, you’ll see plenty of videos of teens and adults in classes together, some may even show young children with adults.
> 
> I was speaking of my particular experience. No doubt, one can probably find anything one wants on YT/web to match a narrative.


Sure, but looking up adult classes I found more classes that were labeled adult that were clearly mixed age than purely adults


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> Nor will a good instructor have issue with mitigating the risk of children and adults mixing. Each age range it taught in an appropriate manner.
> Show us examples of schools and predators.


Lol yeah if good instructors and the like could prevent predators then simply put there’d be no kids being taken advantage of because it’s so easy to mitigate.

And no, you can’t run a class in a manner that’s age appropriate for young children and adults at the same time because the differences in brain development are too different.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Lol yeah if good instructors and the like could prevent predators then simply put there’d be no kids being taken advantage of because it’s so easy to mitigate.
> 
> And no, you can’t run a class in a manner that’s age appropriate for young children and adults at the same time because the differences in brain development are too different.


This is successfully done countless times every day. 
Honestly, your concerns border on being downright creepy. 
We segregate within the same class depending on the age makeup. For example, we may separate a group of kids and work them separately, but everyone is working out at the same time. A lot of things are done concurrently. It is just more efficient that way.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> This is successfully done countless times every day.
> Honestly, your concerns border on being downright creepy.
> We segregate within the same class depending on the age makeup. For example, we may separate a group of kids and work them separately, but everyone is working out at the same time. A lot of things are done concurrently. It is just more efficient that way.


I agree, it is creepy and worrying.
In the UK as I'm sure it is in North America and Europe as well as other countries there are many precautions taken to safeguard children.
Here all organisations have their instructors checked by the police and safeguarding issues highlighted as well as safety policies put in place. I would say this is adhered to by all clubs.








						Safeguarding in martial arts | CPSU
					

Thousands of children take part in martial arts, and it's growing in popularity. So it's critical to get safeguarding and child protection right.




					thecpsu.org.uk


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Again, if you’re having to go out of your way to make it kinda work, one or both of those students are likely not getting the most of out the experience.


Are you an instructor?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I don't see a problem with that. It doesn't hurt adults to train with higher ranks younger than them either.


As a general statement, I don't see an issue with it. Was just clarifying it's a common practice here in the states, since you said you don't know anywhere this happens in any style.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> As a general statement, I don't see an issue with it. Was just clarifying it's a common practice here in the states, since you said you don't know anywhere this happens in any style.


I don't know anyone who does but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. It was more me rebuffing GojuTommy's assertion it was in every class.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Are you an instructor?


Yes and have been for many years


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> This is successfully done countless times every day.
> Honestly, your concerns border on being downright creepy.
> We segregate within the same class depending on the age makeup. For example, we may separate a group of kids and work them separately, but everyone is working out at the same time. A lot of things are done concurrently. It is just more efficient that way.


Creepy to be concerned about predators? I find it creepy people are so nonchalant about it.

As for done successfully…define successfully.

Psychology tells us there are best practices for teaching people of different age groups, and no two are the same..


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## drop bear (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So you think a 14 year old can provide sufficient resistance to a grown adult to make working together on testing techniques beneficial for the adult?



Yeah. I knew a guy Tyler Manawaroa who was smashing pro fighters at about 16.

Mike Tyson was fighting adults at 16 as well


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## Steve (Oct 26, 2022)

Couple of random thoughts.  First, I don't see a specific problem with some adult interaction with kids.  But trusting your instincts and protecting kids from predators is just good sense.

Unrelated (but relevant to the thread) there was a thread a long time ago where a kid was, I think, 15 and competing in a BJJ adult white belt division.  He was grappling with another kid. technically an adult of something like 18.  Anyway, there was an accident and he ended up breaking his neck.  A lot of controversy at the time about whether or not he should have been competing as an adult.  Point then and now is that we have age divisions for a reason, and as a general rule, those reasons make sense for most people.  But exceptions occur, and I think that's a good thing, not a bad one.

Edit:  I found the thread from 2015... won't link to it here but it's out there to find, but it was a 15 year old and a 19 year old, and they were in the blue belt division.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> Couple of random thoughts.  First, I don't see a specific problem with some adult interaction with kids.  But trusting your instincts and protecting kids from predators is just good sense.
> 
> Unrelated (but relevant to the thread) there was a thread a long time ago where a kid was, I think, 15 and competing in a BJJ adult white belt division.  He was grappling with another kid. technically an adult of something like 18.  Anyway, there was an accident and he ended up breaking his neck.  A lot of controversy at the time about whether or not he should have been competing as an adult.  Point then and now is that we have age divisions for a reason, and as a general rule, those reasons make sense for most people.  But exceptions occur, and I think that's a good thing, not a bad one.


For children's classes in sparring comps I'd like to see the age divisions also split into height/weight type sections after the age of 11. Up to 11 children are roughly similar, boys and girls. After, it can look quite bad seeing the disparities that can happen 😏


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## Steve (Oct 26, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> For children's classes in sparring comps I'd like to see the age divisions also split into height/weight type sections after the age of 11. Up to 11 children are roughly similar, boys and girls. After, it can look quite bad seeing the disparities that can happen 😏


At the local BJJ competitions, kids brackets are coed, sometimes up to age 16.  But the brackets are made based on belt rank, age, and weight... so you don't get a kid who is 15 and weighs 165 lbs competing against a 15 year old kid who weights 100lbs.  You end up with a gazillion kids brackets, but it's more equitable.

I think (but would have to confirm) that high school wrestling and high school judo are both coed, too, so you'll see kids up to... well, I guess 17 or so, competing coed.


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## OLD DOG NEW TRICKS (Nov 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I know a lot of schools have classes that are open to all students from their minimum age up to any aged adult who wants to join.
> 
> I was part of one of those dojos, and it took Cobra Kai and Stingray for me to really see how messed up it is to have children and adults in the same class.
> 
> ...


Wow, that is a really paranoid way to think 🤔. As an instructor and training with dozens of instructors we are all constantly watching our students and any inappropriate behavior like that would be delt with on the spot. I believe most instructors do the same.  Sometimes adults wanting to train and learn have no choice but to train with children in the class. An all adult class can be difficult to find in most area's. As a parent it would be your responsibility to watch them train and make sure the environment is safe.


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