# Modern Arnis?



## White Belt Kid (Dec 27, 2001)

greetings, my only exposure in arnis is a litttle bit of doce pares eskrima and some crazy stick wielding, and ive been wanting to know more about modern arnis and its seems that i came on the right place on the net to ask more about it. my  questions, 1st, what exactly is modern arnis or what defines it? what is its trademark or signature from other forms of escrima? 2nd, does modern arnis emphasize on fencing, partner drills, single person drills, or self-defense? 3rd, is it safe to say that modern arnis is also a sport? (or so i think it is in the philippines) 4th, judging from what i have read about arnis here, what do all these groups have in common as far as foundations of the art is concerned? i guess since there is no single authority on modern arnis in america today i thinks the answers to my questions will have to depend from each orgs own response. well, any response is much appreciated.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 27, 2001)

Greetings. 

Modern Arnis was developed by the late GM Remy Presas, based on earlier FMA.  It shares a few techniques with some similarities to current JKD and Kenpo technichies. Arnisidor or Renegade can give better details.  Right now, there are several organizations promoting GM Presas' art.  Several of them have reps here and post regularly.

:asian:


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## arnisador (Dec 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by White Belt Kid _
> *greetings, my only exposure in arnis is a litttle bit of doce pares eskrima and some crazy stick wielding, and ive been wanting to know more about modern arnis and its seems that i came on the right place on the net to ask more about it. my  questions, 1st, what exactly is modern arnis or what defines it? what is its trademark or signature from other forms of escrima? 2nd, does modern arnis emphasize on fencing, partner drills, single person drills, or self-defense? 3rd, is it safe to say that modern arnis is also a sport? (or so i think it is in the philippines) 4th, judging from what i have read about arnis here, what do all these groups have in common as far as foundations of the art is concerned? i guess since there is no single authority on modern arnis in america today i thinks the answers to my questions will have to depend from each orgs own response. well, any response is much appreciated. *



Indeed, I think that different people would give you different answers. I am an instructor of Modern Arnis and will answer from my own point of view.

Modern Arnis does have the 12 angles of attack with which you are familiar. It's defined as the art created by the late Remy A. Presas, and currently several organizations are claiming to be the appropriate successor to Prof. Presas in shepherding the art into the 21_st_ century. It has single and double stick one- and two-person drills, empty-hand one- and two-person drills, anyos (kata), and contains both striking and locking/grappling techniques. It also teaches the daga (knife) and espada (a machete-like sword) though typically only wooden versions are used. It is effective for self-defense and is not a sport though the Professor first popularized it in the Philippines as a form of exercise and recreation and worked through their national sport and exercise organization. I suspect that the various organizations represented here have much more in common than one might think by reading this board.

If you started to learn Modern Arnis you'd likely begin with the 12 angles, move to some two-person single stick drills (most notably solo baston) and two-person empty-hand drills (most notably chaining hands), and work your way toward sinawali (two stick two-person drills) and on to more advanced drills, including more advanced variations of these basics. Your experience with any given instructor might vary considerably! See also:
www.modernarnis.com
www.modernarnis.net
www.professorpresas.com
www.wmarnis.com
The latter two sites have online curricula posted. I am associated with the last organization, the WMAA.


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## White Belt Kid (Dec 29, 2001)

What about tapi-tapi? ive heard of it mentioned in some eskrima lately, but my guess is that professor presas coined the word until all the other arnis people caught up with it. what is tapi-tapi anyway? ive heard from some people that it is a form of sparring, but more softer and controlled. is this true?


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## arnisador (Dec 29, 2001)

> _Originally posted by White Belt Kid _
> *What about tapi-tapi? ive heard of it mentioned in some eskrima lately, but my guess is that professor presas coined the word until all the other arnis people caught up with it. what is tapi-tapi anyway?*



I do not know the etymology of the term or who first used it in the U.S. Tapi-Tapi is a two-person drill that the Professor placed increasing emphasis on during what were his last years. Mr. Delaney discussed it in some detail in an article in the Oct. 2001 issue of Black Belt magazine; you might check that out.


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## Bob (Dec 30, 2001)

Earlier Mr. Rearic made mention of a picture of the Professor and Mr. Worden posing with staffs. I have seen this picture many times, as a matter fact it hung next to Datu Wordens desk in all his schools. The way I understand the story behind that picture was that Datu Worden, before he met the Professor was very much into his Bo forms he was studying during his Karate years. Well as his experience in Modern Arnis grew he began to work the stick anyos and sinawallis with his staff. Soon he took his stick work and translated it all into a staff system which he called Sibat. This accomplishment was one of the reasons the Professor gave him the title of Datu.
Bob


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *The way I understand the story behind that picture was that Datu Worden, before he met the Professor was very much into his Bo forms he was studying during his Karate years. Well as his experience in Modern Arnis grew he began to work the stick anyos and sinawallis with his staff. Soon he took his stick work and translated it all into a staff system which he called Sibat.*



Mr. Jornales taught me something of the sibat, and its use was indeed similar to that of the baston and hence was unlike what I had learned of the bo in Okinawan karate. It was interesting to see the staff used in that way. It really emphasized for me the fact that the _principles_ of arnis transcend the weapon. Japanese and Chinese systems tend to use each weapon in a way specific to that weapon, which is _prima facie_ very reasonable; but the FMA tend to use over-riding principles for all (and no) weapons, which turns out to make a great deal of sense too.

Does this not more appropriately belong in the other thread, by the way?


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## no fefe (Dec 30, 2001)

Well as far as know Arnis is a fighting art just like Kali and Eskrima.  I have never seen Modern Arnis spoken only in terms strictly a sport.  I mean can it be turned into a sport? Yes, I think it could but all the seminars I have been to were strictly for self defense / combative applications.

  When it comes to how Arnis is taught there are going I think it will be based on the preference of the instructor.  I think if you attend a Modern Arnis seminar you will see groups of Arnis students moving differently than other groups.

  Hmmm OK if I were to say this is what I think makes Modern Arnis different it is the statement that professor always says "Make it your own art"  One of the things we keep in mind with Datu worden is that no one is bult the same and no one moves the same.  So in order to make a technique work I may have to move slightly different in order to get the same result.

RK


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by no fefe _
> *Hmmm OK if I were to say this is what I think makes Modern Arnis different it is the statement that professor always says "Make it your own art"  One of the things we keep in mind with Datu worden is that no one is bult the same and no one moves the same.  So in order to make a technique work I may have to move slightly different in order to get the same result.
> *



This is one of the great things about the FMA in general--whereas Japanese, Chinese, and Korean arts all tend to have the one-size-fits-all approach of "the elbow must be exactly one fist-length from the body, the fist must be exactly at shoulder height, the feet must be exactly a shoulder-width apart", etc., the FMA tend to teach general principles and let the practitioner adapt them to their own frame. Mr. Hartman's student Mr. Rech was a good example of this, I recall--he fit the system to himself nicely. There's a lot of freedom to explore and customize the FMA systems that is at least not as easily apparent and not emphasized as early in other systems.

I have no doubt that someone will disagree with me about the Japanese, Chinese, and Korean arts, citing exceptions! I don't doubt that they exist, but I still think what I have said is true as a rule.


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## Bob (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> 
> Does this not more appropriately belong in the other thread, by the way? *



Yes, you are right this does belong in a different thread. I am a little ignorant to the ways of posting. thanks for bringing this to my attention. I am learning......
Bob


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *Yes, you are right this does belong in a different thread. I am a little ignorant to the ways of posting.*



I don't think anyone is overly concerned about these things, and the Moderator moves threads occasionally if he feels it really needs to be done. Like anything else, you'll need to experiment with this software before you're comfortable with it!


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## Bob (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> This is one of the great things about the FMA in general--whereas Japanese, Chinese, and Korean arts all tend to have the one-size-fits-all approach of "the elbow must be exactly one fist-length from the body, the fist must be exactly at shoulder height, the feet must be exactly a shoulder-width apart", etc., the FMA tend to teach general principles and let the practitioner adapt them to their own frame. Mr. Hartman's student Mr. Rech was a good example of this, I recall--he fit the system to himself nicely. There's a lot of freedom to explore and customize the FMA systems that is at least not as easily apparent and not emphasized as early in other systems.
> ...


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *I would like to add that it also shows the flexibility and range of the instructors to help the student explore the art. In order for the student to progress the instructor must learn about the student's personality and physical limitations, not just tell them to go do something that would discourage them.  That is one of the many reasons why I have made my home in the FMA and have stayed with Datu Worden. Under his guidance I have been able to adapt and develop a skill that is tailored around who I am. *



I have similar feelings about Mr. Hartman, who continues to explore other FMA system on his own for his own benefit and for his students' benefit and who does not subscribe to the "if it doesn't hurt then you're not doing it right" philosophy. I have also met a Modern Arnis instructor who very much followed the rigid mode and some in-between, but I think this freedom for the individual practitioner is an integral part of Modern Arnis.

The question of whether or not there is a formal curriculum for Modern Arnis--the way many arts are largely defined by the collection of their kata and a few other exercises and drills--remains. The IMAF under Mr. Delaney has a curriculum posted:
http://www.professorpresas.com/Curriculum.htm
I assume this was the Professor's last approved formal curriculum of instruction in the art. There is an issue of reconciling a _formal, structured_ curriculum for the art with the _informal, unstructured_ way an individual practitioner of the art is encouraged to practice.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Dec 30, 2001)

Arnisador wrote:
*I assume this was the Professor's last approved formal curriculum of instruction in the art.*

This I highly doubt, Remy didn't have a written curriculum. On more than one occasion Remy would want to get copies of what I would use for my students. On his last visit to Buffalo we discussed doing something in the near future, but sadly we never had the chance.

I have my curriculum online @ http://www.wmarnis.com/curriculum.html

If you click on the belt name the reqirements will come up. There is nothing online above 1st degree black.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 30, 2001)

Looking at the requirements on Renegade's site made me realize something:  I've never seen an anyo.  Is there anyplace online with photos or vid clips of FMA anyos?  I would just like to peek at one out of curiosity.

Cthulhu
bein' nosey


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Looking at the requirements on Renegade's site made me realize something:  I've never seen an anyo.  Is there anyplace online with photos or vid clips of FMA anyos?  I would just like to peek at one out of curiosity.*



Mr. Hartman is aware of my feelings concerning the Modern Arnis empty-hand anyos. You _have_ seen the anyos. They are the Pinan katas, barely adapted. They do not "fit" with Modern Arnis at all. Perhaps they provide some needed stance training, but overall I dislike their placement in Modern Arnis. I speak as someone who _liked_ kata in karate.

The stick anyos aren't as bad. They're laid out on the same general sort of pattern however.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 30, 2001)

So are the anyos based off of the Pinan kata?  Very interesting!  I'd like to see them still, just to see the variations.  I've done this before with the JKA Heian kata, Shorin Ryu Pinan kata, Tae Kwon Do Pinan kata (forget the Korean name for them...not taught in WTF TKD, I believe), and Wado Ryu Pinan kata.  I like to see the differences.  To me, the differences (and similarities) can give you a lot of information on the systems.

However, since you said the Pinan-based(?) anyos seem out of place in Modern Arnis, then they may not be a good way to learn about the system.

Again, I'm still interesting in seeing them, especially the stick anyos.

Thanks for the info!
:asian: 
Cthulhu


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## no fefe (Dec 31, 2001)

I would have to disagree with Arnisador about the Anyos in Modern Arnis.  I think they fit just fine, when Datu Worden breaks down the forms in class there is quite a bit of practical application in there.

Anyos (kata / sets or whatever you wish to call them) is the only place where you can rip somebody's head and sh*t down their neck without having to fill out a police report.


RK


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Dec 31, 2001)

I think what Arnisador is saying, that the Anyos that Remy taught where from  another system and didn't have the FMA flavor to them. I've been the head forms instructor for probably the last 5 years if not longer. At the 2000 Michigan camp Remy have me do the forms for the new tapes series. I pratice & teach them at my school on a daily basis. After all of that I have to say that they don't fit in the system.

Why?
Because they are Shotokan Karate forms. They are not in the filipino flavor. This doesn't mean you can't come up with practical applications. I'm saying that don't have the same feeling as the rest of the art.

I do them because it is all we have. The system has a need for empty hand forms so I will continue to train them. I'm also in the process of working on my own forms to ad to what we already have.
 :asian:


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *Because they are Shotokan Karate forms. They are not in the filipino flavor. This doesn't mean you can't come up with practical applications. I'm saying that don't have the same feeling as the rest of the art.*



Thanks Mr. Hartman, this is exactly what I was trying to say. I liked those forms when I did them as part of karate--well, they're relatively simple compared to the unsimplified Okinawan forms, but even still--but unlike the jujitsu that was put into Modern Arnis, the karate doesn't fit well. I agree that the forms have some great applications, but they aren't arnis applications and they don't have the same flow or feel.

I was doing _de cadena_ with my young son the other night. Remembering the anyo and trying to make connections, he tried to chamber his fist each time. Not surprisingly, it didn't flow very well. He had been doing _de cadena_ very nicely before he tried to make the connection. What do I say? The truth would be, "Everything else in Modern Arnis is well-connected and flows from one technique into the other in a smooth way that I want you to learn. The stuff in the anyos doesn't. You may be able to _make_ it work in, sometimes, but basically treat it separately." This is _un_mixed martial arts. It hasn't been mixed in at all.

I say again, the anyos are Japanese karate and that's a fine art (though I prefer Okinawan karate myself). They have all the same applications they have in the Japanese and Korean systems that use them. Those are good, useful, Japanese techniques that unlike the jujitsu techniques that were added to Modern Arnis simply don't fit in, don't flow, don't _mix_ into a single art.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 31, 2001)

Hey Renegade,

When are you going to put them on tape?  :cheers:


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## Mao (Dec 31, 2001)

I think that Renegade is already doing onyos on tape................................with J.D................HAAAAA   

 no fefe, the other place you can rip off heads and such is when the police call the fire dept. to tangle with certain people because the f.d. doesn't have to fill out all the paper work. They were restraining the person for medical treatment because the person was incapable of making the decision themselves.


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## no fefe (Dec 31, 2001)

To me I see so much Filipino flavor in the Anyos that is hard for me to see that they do not belong. I see attaching to the opponent so that we can use them as a wall and I see limb destructions in many of the forms.  Do you realize all the forms have a two man set relation? Additionally without attachment and continuous adhesion you have lost control of the opponent, the Anyos are the storage area for a large majority of the technique Professor taught. Brush grab strike leads to the intercepting qualities of Wing Chun and have a dynamic relation to boxing parries, try separating the movement to respond to a quick jab cross combo, the trick is to not think of one hand attacking and just brushing into the attack, intercept with aggression and pressure.  It could be brush, grab and pulling your opponent into a ridge hand, heel palm, face rake or as you pull them you cup the face, move behind them to choke or perhaps a elbow to the back of the head.  

Crossada advances and attacks the second hand while sectoring with footwork to jam and control for outbalancing, most importantly stop trying to apply the movements while following the established line or direction of the form, let it become alive and think of positional control and create a wall of flesh from your initial attachment to an additional aggressor making a move on you, so much waiting for you if you have the understanding to extract the value. All empty hand anyo can be applied as weapon maneuvers as well as the stick anyo applied to the empty hand... within this visual and tactical approach the arts come alive. 

Professor rarely spoke of his Aikido background, his Sombo as a young boy.  Try a stick anyo with reverse grip and look for the pressure traps of Wing Chun, the small circle lock flow of Jujutsu, the throws of Aikido, the long fist pressure locks of Tai Chi or the out centering and cross cutting attachment of Silat.  Try stick anyo 1 empty handed
I see tan sao, pak sao with the pak sao turning into brush grab strike just in the first 3 movements.


There is a video of Roland Dante and Datu Kelly Worden doing a long interview session speaking of a wide variety of subjects about Professor and is concluded with a cross referencing of the stick forms into solo, double, espada y dagga, staff, sword, empty hand trapping and lock flow, it was recently completed and will be available within the next two weeks.

Remember this is simply my point of view and I am not trying to step on anyones toes.  If anything we will enlighten each other or we can simply agree to disagree.


RK

I will keep that in mind Mao :asian:


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## no fefe (Dec 31, 2001)

I like to do brush, grab, strike emulating the snake adehering to the opponents limbs, attaching, keeping contact and trapping.

RK


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## Bob (Dec 31, 2001)

I do agree though!!!!!!!!! Sometimes you got to think out the box and add a little creativity to your forms........ 
Bob


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by no fefe _
> *To me I see so much Filipino flavor in the Anyos that is hard for me to see that they do not belong. *



It's great that you've been able to make these work for you; nonetheless, these are the Pinan/Heian kata created Anko Itosu to train Okinawan schoolchildren in karate and that were popularized by Gichin Funakoshi when he included them in what was to become Shotokan karate. I too have seen them taught with a Filipino emphasis but this is something of a stretch in my opinion. The long forward stance, the formal chambered reverse punch--the applications can be taken as a lunging throw and an armbar, respectively, giving a Modern Arnis flavor, but the fact remains that the rpactice style is still distinctly Japanese.



> *
> Professor rarely spoke of his Aikido background, his Sombo as a young boy. *



Indeed, I was not aware that he had studied Sombo (by this you mean the same thing as Russian sambo I assume?). His Japanese karate and judo background, and his appreciation for Wally Jay's Small Circle JuJitsu, shine through in his art however.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Dec 31, 2001)

Remember, we are talking bout the hand forms. The stick forms I do like. The way Remy would have me do the forms was like a karataka, not like some one who does FMA, 

I would also like to point that the anyo was the thing that very little people could agree of how they were taught!


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## DWright (Dec 31, 2001)

My website www.arnis4life.com has anyo isa (form one) on the events page.  The quality is not perfect, but we were at a demo in the pouring rain under a plastic tarp.  But you should be able to see the first cane form.

As the Renegade posted the forms were taught differently, so this may not be exactly the same as some of you were taught.

Maybe if Renegade will get some forms tapes out here we can teach them a bit more uniformly.


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> *Maybe if Renegade will get some forms tapes out here we can teach them a bit more uniformly. *



Yes, Mr. Hartman was typically the principal anyos instructor at the camps so his method is likely the modal method.

I agree, as I believe I stated initially, that the stick anyos are better. The empty-hand anyos are also perfectly fine...karate. I respect those whoa re making it work for them but it just doesn't feel like arnis to me!


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## arnisador (Mar 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> 
> *Earlier Mr. Rearic made mention of a picture of the Professor and Mr. Worden posing with staffs. I have seen this picture many times*



I was cleaning up my den this evening and came across the "Martial Arts Presents...Filipino Martial Arts" magazine from CFW Enterprises (August 2001) and it has a picture of Mr. Worden working the staff with the Professor. Is this the picture to which you refer? There is also a sequence showing Mr. Worden using what appears to be a slightly shorter staff against Robert Koeing who has two sticks.

The article contains a comment on the _datu_ rank that has been discussed so much here, incidentally (the author is Jim Sullivan):



> "The datu rank acts as an R&D (research and development) division which must be free of the restraints and confines of rank to work properly."



The article also contains a comment on the system of Mr. Worden:


> "More than just a martial artist, Worden is a master instructor and founder of his own system--Natural Spirit International. One of his greatest innovations has been the creation of the sibat or Philipino long pole and the concepts of connecting the system, where the long pole teaches the practitioner a universal system of movement that can be applied to knife, stick, and open-hand techniques."



We have heard about Mr. Worden's emphasis on connecting the systems but we have not heard much about the Natural Spirit International system that he has founded. Does it grant rank and have its own instructors?


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## Pappy Geo (Mar 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> We have heard about Mr. Worden's emphasis on connecting the systems but we have not heard much about the Natural Spirit International system that he has founded. Does it grant rank and have its own instructors? *



Hello Arnisador here is an answer to the above question:

Certifications available as follows Modern Arnis, Natural Spirit Concepts, Kickboxing WKA Style, Defensive Tactics, Modern Arnis/ Wortac Tactical Knife, 

Other certifications are available through a number of associated Organizations directly Affiliated with Kelly S. Worden including Lucaylucay JKD/Kali-Leonard Trigg, Kajukembo-Emperado/Ron Pierce, Comtech-Jim Keating, DATA Executive Protection(ESI Based)- Bob Anderson, American Sombo- Dr. Brett Jacques and others.


In this organization these Certifications are hard to come by and well respected. I was figuring out amount hours invested to get there is comparable to (in time) to getting a college Masters degree! 


Regarding Staff and the Professor

The Professor approved of the content of the Article by Jim Sullivan. There are several series of pictures exist of the Professor and Datu Worden doing staff and will be eventually shared.


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## arnisador (Mar 15, 2002)

Thanks *Pappy Geo*!


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