# what is a martial artist?



## thecrow (Aug 31, 2009)

what is a martial artist?

a martial artist is the final step, it is what bruce lee was tiring to explain, and what ed was reaching for.

martial artist=artist=create

what does a artist do, he creates, simple,
what does he create, form and in doing so he has no form.

a martial artist creates his own moves, his own form-one after another- never going back to said form. he knows forms, but has no form in a fight.

in a fight a martial artist creates new forms to tailor it to that person, that fight, that environment. there is no form the form is being created during a fight. the form is after the fight is finished, then there is a form,
he use the law of variables, the forms he knows are guides to creating, nothing more, it doesn't matter if he is taped in a fight, his opponent could study the tape for 10 years, it doesn't matter, the form will never be used again, unless to teach

a martial artist is just that an artist, he is free


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## terryl965 (Aug 31, 2009)

Still a martial artist is bound by continueing training to perfect the said technique.


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## thecrow (Aug 31, 2009)

you never stop learning, but that is not the point


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## Xinglu (Aug 31, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Still a martial artist is bound by continueing training to perfect the said technique.



Aren't all artists regardless of the medium by which they work within?


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## Blindside (Aug 31, 2009)

A two year old with finger paints can create art, that certainly isn't a final step.  I think I've said this elsewhere but as far as I'm concerned everyone who practices martial arts is a martial artist, be they on Day 1 or Year 60.


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## thecrow (Aug 31, 2009)

you could say a two year old can create art, who says if it is art? a two year old can fight two, he bites, is one way, does that make him a martial artist. seems like the point is getting missed here. for example i remember a fight i was in as a kid before training, the guy was a lot biger than me and i new i didn't want to get hit by him, so every time he pulled back to hit me i hit him 5 times in the face, every time he tryed to throw a punch i hit him, a lot, then he bent over, and something flashed, pull his shirt over his head, so i pulled his shirt and jacket over his head, now he was blind and arms where disabled and i was free to finish, i didn't practice it, i saw it done in hockey games, it was a moment of creativity,

to say a beginner is a martial artist, is like putting a first year painter on the same level as van go, first he does not know all the basics, not even all the punches, how can he string punches together to create a form if he is missing punches, will a house stand if it is missing part of it's foundation, the answer is no. i must disagree that you are a martial artist right out of the gate, to me, that is like building a house on sand, the house will fall when the tide comes in,
and as far is the final step i guess you don't see it. that is the problem with some parts of the martial arts world, instead of asking a question that could aid them in seeing the point of veiw, they say "no it is not". why? because you don't see it? imagine your first day of class and the teacher is showing something and you say that doesn't work because i don't see, years down the road you learn the move and after studying you see. so now it works right? or the teacher can do it to you and then you know it does work and is true, you just don't know how. unfortunately this is how some people learn.he had those people in the gym, and my teacher would just say ok, and they never got it.
i remember one guy came in and the teacher asked would you like kung fu shoes, he said no, i'll wear my sneakers, my teacher said ok, after the work he went up to my teacher and said well i got the kicks down, and my teacher nodded to me, and walked to his office, so i came over with my kung fu shoes, and slid back and forth on the cement floor, i said " it's waxed, the shoes make it more slick, like ice" and i walked away, he had the kicks down? he didn't even have his feet.


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## still learning (Aug 31, 2009)

Hello, Time does NOT define a Martial artist....

For NOW anyone who trains in a self-defense course along the lines of Kung-fu/ karate / Kempo...a fighting style

Off course...we can look at the dictionary too.....

Aloha,  MA"s .....people who train to fight?


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## Blindside (Aug 31, 2009)

"Art" is a subjective term.  You can have a so called "martial art" that doesn't have:

A: punches
B: kicks
C: weapons
D: grappling

Would any of these arts "lack foundation" because they are missing an aspect of some larger body of knowledge?  Is a white belt student who doesn't have an axe kick really missing some vital element that they need to qualify to be a "martial artist?"  Also, is a "martial artist" a "martial artist" if he is out there creating and keeps getting beat up?  When he is being all "leaf on the wind" and "no mind" and still keeps snookered by that right cross?  

I'll be the first to say that I'm not very philosophical about the martial arts, I don't think they are a path to enlightenment, to me they are about challenging yourself and learning how to kick ***.  You can put all the trappings on it you want, and this thread is certainly a matter of opinion, but to me, a martial artist is someone who does martial arts. Period.


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## Kenpo17 (Aug 31, 2009)

You do become a Martial Artist by continueing in the practice, and not just training in it for a month and then moving on.


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## thecrow (Aug 31, 2009)

wow i mean wow,
i wasn't down grading a white belt or those who have just begun there training in anyway, i was saying the term martial arts should be held in high regards and as a goal, not something that is thrown around, it's a ideal, but before i get into that let me answer a question i missed so as not to be rude,

artist are regarded in the medium in which they practice, but martial artist covers all branches of martial arts.


ok i did not mention stlye, so not sure  why that was even thrown in, it's a idea.

rt_" is a subjective term.  You can have a so called "martial art" that doesn't have:

A: punches
B: kicks
C: weapons
D: grappling

_yes  as martial means military, i suppose a gun could be used, what is the point.

and a my point about a martial artist, he wouldn't be suckered for a right cross,

_*I'll be the first to say that I'm not very philosophical about the martial arts, I don't think they are a path to enlightenment, to me they are about challenging yourself and learning how to kick ***.

*_wow that is a big mistake, in my opinion, that really says alot about the type of fighter you are.

i put this out here to kick around ideas maybe share a point of view, and i must say i feel a bit disrespected, i don't think i have been shown the same respect as these white belt you defend to the death when i didn't mention them in the first place and haven't said bad word about them, or the beginner. now i see what jeff is up against.

you see i, we, don't have belts in our gym, and i have trained side by side with ed parkers first black belts and they give me  a great deal more respect than i have gotten here that is for sure. and for the record i'm 33, so they're older and they give that much respect why, i earned it. that's ok i'm through wasting my time here.
you don't get it. you don't want to get it. and that is ok because it doesn't hurt me. not one bit. have a nice day


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## still learning (Aug 31, 2009)

Hello,  Can the term Martial artist be the same as?

Golfer, Tennis player, Bowler...weather they are beginners or Pro's?

Techniques that is taught is the same techniques a Black belt learns?

Aloha,

Today a martial artist who trains.....


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## Milt G. (Aug 31, 2009)

Hello,

A "martial artist" is one who, seriously, studies one of the hundreds of martial arts available to study.  Most often from a more "esoteric" standpoint.

I believe the answer can be found, somewhat, in the "Do" and "Jutsu" realm.  A martial "artist" would be a follower of the "Do" (way) aspect.

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Blindside (Sep 1, 2009)

thecrow said:


> and a my point about a martial artist, he wouldn't be suckered for a right cross,



So you can't hit a "martial artist" with a right cross.  Interesting.



> _*I'll be the first to say that I'm not very philosophical about the martial arts, I don't think they are a path to enlightenment, to me they are about challenging yourself and learning how to kick ***.
> 
> *_wow that is a big mistake, in my opinion, that really says alot about the type of fighter you are.



There are three points to my statement, which one is the big mistake?
1) They are not a path to enlightenment.  If you disagree with this statement, what is this enlightenment that you will find?
2) The martial arts are about challenging yourself.
3) They are about learning to kick ***.



> i put this out here to kick around ideas maybe share a point of view, and i must say i feel a bit disrespected, i don't think i have been shown the same respect as these white belt you defend to the death when i didn't mention them in the first place and haven't said bad word about them, or the beginner.



No, I mentioned them because I am offering an alternative to your concept of what the term "martial artist" should entail.  I am also curious about why you feel "disrespected," because I disagreed with you?  We are "kicking around ideas" though in this case several people don't share a point of view.  This is what discussion forums do, discuss.



> now i see what jeff is up against.


Who is jeff and why does he matter in this discussion?


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## Blindside (Sep 1, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> A "martial artist" is one who, seriously, studies one of the hundreds of martial arts available to study.  Most often from a more "esoteric" standpoint.
> 
> ...



Hi Milt,

What is the term for those who follow the -jutsu side of the philosophical divide? 

Lamont


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## Xinglu (Sep 1, 2009)

Blindside said:


> "Art" is a subjective term.  You can have a so called "martial art" that doesn't have:
> 
> A: punches
> B: kicks
> ...



Yes. Just off the top of my head: Fencing (no punching, kicking or grappling), Iaido (no punching, kicking or grappling), Roman-Greco wrestling (no weapons, no kicks, no punches).


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## Milt G. (Sep 1, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Hi Milt,
> 
> What is the term for those who follow the -jutsu side of the philosophical divide?
> 
> Lamont


 
Hello, Lamont...

I, personally, would consider them a martial "scientist"...  The "Jutsu" aspect, that is.  One less concerned with the abstract that may be considered artistic.  More concerned with the "facts and experimentation" that make their art effective in real life altercations.  Much of traditional martial arts is consideren "fluff" by some.

I practice, to practice.  Kind of an esoteric thing, to me.  To coordinate my mind and body.  I believe a martial scientist will practice to hone and perfect their martial skills for the possibility of use in actual combat.  More of a mindset, really.  

I do not always think of what I do as purly self defense.  Technology has moved forward some.  I would most likely rely on my HK USP .40, should an actual encounter occur where I had to defend my family, or life, was concerned.

I think of the MMA training as more if a martial "science" kind of thing.  Boxing, too.  They train to use their skills in a ring, or sporting venue.  I do my kata just to feel good.   Just my opinion, of course.  
Hope that helps?

Have a great week!
Milt G.


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## stone_dragone (Sep 1, 2009)

Coming to this discussion from an outsider's point of view, I see a few things.

First of all, I see a potentially good discussion about the nature of art and what it means to be an artist in the "Martial" medium.

Unfortunately, I also see some people who profess to share ideas but instead of listening to others, they are merely waiting to talk (or post, as it were).

I suppose a good place for me to start on the matter is to discuss what the difference between "an art" and "art" itself is.  The premise of defining an "Artist" as "one who creates art" is correct, but incomplete.  I would submit that an artist is "one who creates art; one who practices or studies an art."

So what is "an Art" versus "art"? I present that "an art" is a craft or skill honed by its body of practitioners to the point that a person outside of that body of practitioners can recognize that a product of that art is out of the normal scope of daily life and is, in fact, something that transcends the ordinary. That product can be called "art." something lasting that produces an emotional reaction in those who experience it through any combination of the senses. Do martial arts fit that description?

I would also submit that the term "martial art" is somewhat misleading to its purpose - imposing ones will on another or preventing them from imposing theirs on you (really, that's what militaries do).  In martial terms, what most of us as "martial artists" study would better be described a craft or skill.  When many people conceptualize a "martial art," what actually comes to mind is a physical and mental skill cultivated through training. 

By the premise here, a person who can spontaneously produce a technique or combination using a system of physical basics in such a way as to efficiently solve the problem at hand is better described as a craftsman, not an artist.  The craftsman enters the realm of artistry when that technique or combination produced is of such unique quality that it leaves a permanent emotional or psychological impression on those who experience it through any combination of the five senses.

With this in mind, there are very few marital artists in the world.  By my guess, Jeff isn't one and neither am I.

All that being said, there are different cultural terms for what I, as an American English speaker, call Martial Arts.  In Japanese, we have Bugei, Bujutsu and Budo.  All of which begin with "Bu," or War/Military, and follow up with way, skill, etc.  None of them mean "Art." In Chinese, we have Kung Fu, Chuan Fa and Wushu - Meaning "Skill","Fist law" and "War Skill."  None of them discussing "art" either (my Japanese and Chinese aren't all that good, so forgive me if I got those a little skewed."  Most cultural terms for "art" are specifically related to their medium.

The artist and the craftsman are two sides of the same coin.  Both are driven by innovation and the need to fill a void with that which they create.  They are driven by their own motivations to constantly improve.  They both either get better daily or stagnate, depending on whether or not they continue to practice (like medicine). 

Admittedly, this definition is incredibly limiting whereas another purpose of "art" is to liberate us from the day to day existence of the mundane.  In the end, whether or not you call yourself or someone else a martial artist, a martial craftsman or a marital arts practitioner, know why you are doing it and get the most out of it that you can.  

My .02


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## shaolinmonkmark (Sep 1, 2009)

Blindside said:


> A two year old with finger paints can create art, that certainly isn't a final step. I think I've said this elsewhere but as far as I'm concerned everyone who practices martial arts is a martial artist, be they on Day 1 or Year 60.


 

i do concur.
It is a never ending Life style of Learning!


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## Xinglu (Sep 1, 2009)

stone_dragone said:


> So what is "an Art" versus "art"? I present that "an art" is a craft or skill honed by its body of practitioners to the point that a person outside of that body of practitioners can recognize that a product of that art is out of the normal scope of daily life and is, in fact, something that transcends the ordinary. That product can be called "art." something lasting that produces an emotional reaction in those who experience it through any combination of the senses. Do martial arts fit that description?


I would say yes, the craft of fighting, or the craft of hand to hand combat, or  to be over dramatic one could argue the craft of death. 



stone_dragone said:


> By the premise here, a person who can spontaneously produce a technique or combination using a system of physical basics in such a way as to efficiently solve the problem at hand is better described as a craftsman, not an artist.  The craftsman enters the realm of artistry when that technique or combination produced is of such unique quality that it leaves a permanent emotional or psychological impression on those who experience it through any combination of the five senses.


 But you just defined a craft as falling under the definition of an art, ergo, using your logic, the term "artist" still applies.  I would say that your average student is a "craftsman", as they haven't yet learns how to bend and break the rules of their trade in just the right ways to make something truly amazing.  When that happens, you have a true "artist."

Martial arts and crafts, has a nice ring


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## Jenna (Sep 1, 2009)

I think the art lies in taking a basic pedagogy of martial technique and then forcing it through your own filters or moulds such that the techniques are not merely assimilated and but become redefined or rather re-MIXED within you so you OWN those techniques.  You demonstrate them in your own specific way that "fits" you and that flows effortlessly from you.  When you own the techniques and are no longer owned and shackled BY those techniques then you produce the art irrespective of your field of artistic endeavour.  

Furthermore the more you OWN those techniques, the purer your art.  

Therefore it is NOT I think correct to imagine that a beginner is not an artist.  He or she is an artist as much as any.  The demarcation is in how pure his or her art is AS THEY PRACTICE IT.  

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## thecrow (Sep 1, 2009)

blindside, why i feel disrespected is the way you are disagreeing with me, you have not joy,

if you think martial arts is about beating people up you are wrong, way wrong or kicking *** as you put it, you are a paper tiger, you figure out what that means you don't even get what i am saying to you, it does matter how many times i point out your mistake you won't see it, just by your words i already can tell how you fight, see i have already thought about what you are going to do and how you are going to do it, tell me what do you create while you are kicking *** as you put it? do you even get kenpo? you say kicking ***, like a fight is to be taken lightly, it's a macho response. i know your not enlighten but do you get that there are guys out there that can break your arm leg even a foot in a way that you can never use it again, ed talks about a ankle strike that is ment to do just that, keep a person from ever walking again, do you get if you have that attitude i know kenpo and i'm going to kick your ***, i would take you at your word and probably take your sight forever, there are a million different ways i could do it, what then your blind can't work can't fight, what then? and there are guys out there like the masters i trained with that would just plain take your life, no playing and you say well they would go to jail, these guys can bruise your liver causing it to swell and kill you with a fingure, how do i know i have had it done to me and i through up right away, i trained iron body kung, maybe that is why i didn't die but i through up for a week afterwards, and there was no mark, why did he do it, he wants to die in a fight, that is his dream, he is crazy, there are a lot of way a martial artist can kill you, fights are war as my teacher said and people die in wars, that is enlightenment for your ***, do you get it yet? your statemnet about martial arts is about kicking *** is like saying war is about kicking ***, war is about killing death destruction there is only two kinds of people who take fighting and hurting others lightly, papertigers and those who are crazy, your not carzy, your blind, and i'm sure like so many that have the bad *** way of thinking you will find out the hard way. but i suspect you can't break anyones bone and you don't know enough to kill a person or you would not take it lightly, we are not teenagers here or kids martial arts when you get top be an adult is both beautiful and brutal, yin and yang, but you don't get that because you don't believe in enlightment right, tell me how can you ever get anything at all, cause you know it all, no enlightment righthow can you ever learn another move because that would enlighten you,


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## thecrow (Sep 1, 2009)

jenn that is what i am saying, i read more later sorry not being rude, stuff to do


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## Xinglu (Sep 1, 2009)

There is no need to get personal folks.  Let's just talk about the topic and not each other, sound good?


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## suicide (Sep 2, 2009)

thecrow said:


> blindside, why i feel disrespected is the way you are disagreeing with me, you have not joy,
> 
> if you think martial arts is about beating people up you are wrong, way wrong or kicking *** as you put it, you are a paper tiger, you figure out what that means you don't even get what i am saying to you, it does matter how many times i point out your mistake you won't see it, just by your words i already can tell how you fight, see i have already thought about what you are going to do and how you are going to do it, tell me what do you create while you are kicking *** as you put it? do you even get kenpo? you say kicking ***, like a fight is to be taken lightly, it's a macho response. i know your not enlighten but do you get that there are guys out there that can break your arm leg even a foot in a way that you can never use it again, ed talks about a ankle strike that is ment to do just that, keep a person from ever walking again, do you get if you have that attitude i know kenpo and i'm going to kick your ***, i would take you at your word and probably take your sight forever, there are a million different ways i could do it, what then your blind can't work can't fight, what then? and there are guys out there like the masters i trained with that would just plain take your life, no playing and you say well they would go to jail, these guys can bruise your liver causing it to swell and kill you with a fingure, how do i know i have had it done to me and i through up right away, i trained iron body kung, maybe that is why i didn't die but i through up for a week afterwards, and there was no mark, why did he do it, he wants to die in a fight, that is his dream, he is crazy, there are a lot of way a martial artist can kill you, fights are war as my teacher said and people die in wars, that is enlightenment for your ***, do you get it yet? your statemnet about martial arts is about kicking *** is like saying war is about kicking ***, war is about killing death destruction there is only two kinds of people who take fighting and hurting others lightly, papertigers and those who are crazy, your not carzy, your blind, and i'm sure like so many that have the bad *** way of thinking you will find out the hard way. but i suspect you can't break anyones bone and you don't know enough to kill a person or you would not take it lightly, we are not teenagers here or kids martial arts when you get top be an adult is both beautiful and brutal, yin and yang, but you don't get that because you don't believe in enlightment right, tell me how can you ever get anything at all, cause you know it all, no enlightment righthow can you ever learn another move because that would enlighten you,


 

welcome to martialtalk.com comes with the territory %-}


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## Blindside (Sep 2, 2009)

thecrow said:


> blindside, why i feel disrespected is the way you are disagreeing with me, you have not joy,
> 
> if you think martial arts is about beating people up you are wrong, way wrong or kicking *** as you put it, you are a paper tiger, you figure out what that means you don't even get what i am saying to you, it does matter how many times i point out your mistake you won't see it, just by your words i already can tell how you fight, see i have already thought about what you are going to do and how you are going to do it, tell me what do you create while you are kicking *** as you put it? do you even get kenpo? you say kicking ***, like a fight is to be taken lightly, it's a macho response. i know your not enlighten but do you get that there are guys out there that can break your arm leg even a foot in a way that you can never use it again, ed talks about a ankle strike that is ment to do just that, keep a person from ever walking again, do you get if you have that attitude i know kenpo and i'm going to kick your ***, i would take you at your word and probably take your sight forever, there are a million different ways i could do it, what then your blind can't work can't fight, what then? and there are guys out there like the masters i trained with that would just plain take your life, no playing and you say well they would go to jail, these guys can bruise your liver causing it to swell and kill you with a fingure, how do i know i have had it done to me and i through up right away, i trained iron body kung, maybe that is why i didn't die but i through up for a week afterwards, and there was no mark, why did he do it, he wants to die in a fight, that is his dream, he is crazy, there are a lot of way a martial artist can kill you, fights are war as my teacher said and people die in wars, that is enlightenment for your ***, do you get it yet? your statemnet about martial arts is about kicking *** is like saying war is about kicking ***, war is about killing death destruction there is only two kinds of people who take fighting and hurting others lightly, papertigers and those who are crazy, your not carzy, your blind, and i'm sure like so many that have the bad *** way of thinking you will find out the hard way. but i suspect you can't break anyones bone and you don't know enough to kill a person or you would not take it lightly, we are not teenagers here or kids martial arts when you get top be an adult is both beautiful and brutal, yin and yang, but you don't get that because you don't believe in enlightment right, tell me how can you ever get anything at all, cause you know it all, no enlightment righthow can you ever learn another move because that would enlighten you,



I'm sure that there is a well thought out, clear and concise response to my questions in this block of text, but I'm sorry to say that I couldn't find it.  Is it before or after the massive assumptions about others, death touches, and blinding people?


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## thecrow (Sep 2, 2009)

my point is fights are not to be taken lightly. people get hurt. we all should remember that


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## tonbo (Sep 2, 2009)

Just my personal opinion/POV:

I differentiate between a "karate (generic term) guy" and "martial artist" this way....

A "karate guy" (or "kung fu guy", etc.) is one who does the moves, may know the terms, etc., but has no heart in the actions.  This encompasses such people as younger kids, people who are in the art to meet members of the opposite sex, posers, etc.  They know the moves, but take everything on pure faith, don't tend to practice, want only surface level, etc.

A "martial artist" is someone who studies an art related to combat of some form (hence, martial, duh.  LOL), but seeks more depth, and has some emotional content in what they do.  These people work to perfect form, but are always free to break form and get creative, whether that means doing spontaneous forms, or free combat, etc.  In short, they know enough about the form to be able to break it when needed or to express their own individuality.

Note that, in my opinion, neither has any time limit.  I have known martial artists that were pure streetfighters, but who had heart and motivation, not that they had just "been in a fight a couple of times".

I think it's the heart that makes the artist....the passion, for whatever purpose, and not just rote "recitation" of moves.  If you have ever asked *why* something is done, and want to see variations....or want to know more about your art....then you are a martial artist.  Belt rank/time in art don't matter to me.  Heart does.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Peace -- 

--Tonbo


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