# MA for Self-Defense?



## FizzyCal (Feb 1, 2012)

I currently train in a traditional style of Tae Kwon Do as my ranking Martial Art and have been supplementing it with various other arts for grappling and weapons training. I would also like to supplement my training with something that could offer good, practicle self-defense. I am considering Krav Maga. Anyone have any thoughts on that or perhaps good suggestions for other styles that may have good self-defense? I know that studying a style of martial art is studying self-defense in-and-of-itself. But I'd like to consider a style that really focuses on "self-defense" not just hand-to-hand combat (if that makes any sense). If you have any thoughts or suggestions, would you also have recommendations for good, reputable instructors? Perhaps a seminar that they offer?

Thanks


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## Blindside (Feb 1, 2012)

It is hard to give recommendations for an instructor if we don't have a clue where you are geographically.


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## Gemini (Feb 1, 2012)

FizzyCal said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on that or perhaps good suggestions for other styles that may have good self-defense?


 I would suggest the art your training in offers more than adequate self defense. You just need to learn it.


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## FizzyCal (Feb 1, 2012)

Blindside said:


> It is hard to give recommendations for an instructor if we don't have a clue where you are geographically.



Midwest United States. But am not limited to the midwest.


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## FizzyCal (Feb 1, 2012)

Gemini said:


> I would suggest the art your training in offers more than adequate self defense. You just need to learn it.



Yes, but I would like to learn from other styles as well.


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## Native (Feb 1, 2012)

Welcome, FizzyCal.

Self defense is a huge topic and everyone has an opinion. I'm not certain what you have in mind exactly, but if you spend some time looking through old threads here you will find a wealth of knowledge. Try typing "self-defense" into the search bar and you will get about 4 pages of threads to peruse. 

Also, if you are not already familiar with it, here is a resource to start with. http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/
It will help you define self defense and what it means to you.

Good luck!


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## Gemini (Feb 1, 2012)

FizzyCal said:


> Yes, but I would like to learn from other styles as well.


Understood. My point is, that to become proficient at any technique requires repetition and more repetition. Learning a little about a lot of things makes that very difficult and most I know that train that way are all around mediocre. Your initial post indicates to me a lack of understanding of the art your training in. In other words, you haven't grasped the capabilities of the techniques that art offers or more likely, just haven't experienced them yet. Most Taekwondo practitioners I know have little knowledge of all the techniques we employ. I'm only suggesting you may want to consider that before moving on to something else. I would recommend a heart to heart with your "traditional" instructor. Let him/her provide a larger picture for you. The techniques are there.


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## SavageMan (Feb 1, 2012)

I agree with Gemini. TKD has become very underrated due to a Mcdojo explosion in TKD as well as other arts. Not to mention IMO there seems to be some obvious bias from more traditional Japanese arts. If you haven't trained in TKD long. give it time. My instructor is a 4th dan black belt in TKD as well as a 1st dan in Hapkido and a 2nd dan in Goshin jiu jitsu. Believe me when I tell you he doesn't need those other two arts to defend himself. The stand up game you learn in TKD along with the general self defense techniques you should be learning with each poomse should give you lots of tools for the tool box. And if you find that TKD isn't enough for your taste and you would like to see a little more ground work try Hapkido, it's like TKD's bigger meaner Korean brother. (Excluding the wedgies & noggies.) Having a foundation in TKD would help you with the basics anyway.


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## FizzyCal (Feb 1, 2012)

SavageMan said:


> I would recommend a heart to heart with your "traditional" instructor.



When I say "traditional" I mean we study Tae Kwon Do as it was handed down from Jhoon Rhee through our lineage, but is not the "current" Jhoon Rhee system. It is not associated with ITF, WTF, ATA, or any other TKD association.



> Your initial post indicates to me a lack of understanding of the art your training in..





> If you haven't trained in TKD long. give it time.



Not sure what gave the impression of a lack of understanding. Maybe it was the way I used the term self-defense. In my original post, I thought I made it clear that MA training is self-defense training. But my question was meant to be a little broader than that.  It's not that I haven't trained long enough. Honestly, I believe I will never have trained long enough. I have been training in TKD for around 10 years total. Starting from age 12 - 17, then again from age 34 - 39. I have a very good and very knowledgable teacher. I have a great deal of respect for him and have learned very much from him. I have had many good conversations about the intricacies and application of technique. I believe the Japanese call it Bunkai. Which is misunderstood for application but is actually the analysis of technique.


Anyway... I was just looking for advice on broadening my knowledge. I will talk with my teacher. He does hold rank in a few other systems. I was really hoping someone could give me info here.

Thanks anyway.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 1, 2012)

Actually, I have to applaud everyone here; they gave what I think are excellent answers.  Please understand that on a lot of forums, the kind of question you asked is often used to either put down a given system (which we try not to do here) or to ask for a listing of one's favorite system, which is usually just a rote recitation of everybody's personal favorite.

IMHO, any reputable system, and TKD is certainly one of them (although I do not study it, I study Isshin-Ryu), is excellent for self-defense.  It sounds as if you have a lot of experience; I'd be surprised if you didn't already know that.  If you're looking to broaden your horizons, that's cool and commendable, but it didn't seem as if that's what you were asking.

I hope you'll stick around here; this is a good place full of good people who like to help.  But we tend to get along more than we tend to fight over which system is best for 'self defense' or anything else (we do, from time to time,  but we try to keep it to a low roar).

My opinion?  If you're in the midwest, Isshin-Ryu is a great SD system!  How's that work for ya?    Best of luck, no matter what!  It's all good.


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## FizzyCal (Feb 1, 2012)

Didn't mean any disrepspect. My instructor is very good friends with an Isshin-Ryu instructor that comes to our school to train with us. I'll talk with him. Thank you.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 1, 2012)

FizzyCal said:


> Didn't mean any disrepspect. My instructor is very good friends with an Isshin-Ryu instructor that comes to our school to train with us. I'll talk with him. Thank you.



I didn't think you meant any disrespect!  I just think that the question you asked is often asked, and although you had no way of knowing it, it's often asked by people trying to start trouble.  I can see you're not trying to do that, but the question was kind of, well, typical.  I really do hope you find an art you find satisfactory for good self-defense training.  In the end, it's how YOU feel about it that matters.  I threw in Isshin-Ryu to be lighthearted and funny.  I love my art and it's big in the midwest, but I don't claim it's the only good self-defense system.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 1, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I love my art and it's big in the midwest, but I don't claim it's the only good self-defense system.



True because everyone knows thats Goju Ryu:bangahead:


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 1, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> True because everyone knows thats Goju Ryu:bangahead:



I heard of that system somewhere.  Isn't that the ancient art of running away?


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## ballen0351 (Feb 1, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I heard of that system somewhere. Isn't that the ancient art of running away?



Well Yeah if you cant catch me you cant beat me up


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## Carol (Feb 1, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I heard of that system somewhere.  Isn't that the ancient art of running away?



Nah, that's the one I revitalized, I now call it  Rhee Bok Do.   I teach it along side my favorite Kenpo techniques, Escaping the Thug and Fleeing Chicken.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 1, 2012)

I took rhee bok do for a while but it didn't fit me


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## K-man (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't think you mentioned the other styles you tried. I like Krav but you also have things like systema or even muay thai.  As has been said, most of what you seek is certainly contained in the traditional systems but it takes an experienced instructor to show you those techniques.


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## FizzyCal (Feb 1, 2012)

K-man said:


> I don't think you mentioned the other styles you tried.



Yamanni Chinen-ryu, BJJ, dabbled in Muay Thai kickboxing, just started learning Pencak Silat.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 2, 2012)

SavageMan said:


> ...
> 
> Believe me when I tell you he doesn't need those other two arts to defend himself.
> 
> ...


Even though some MA may have things that work better for some people in different applications, I don't know that it would be correct to say any MA is better than another. I think properly learned, all MA are good for SD.

Just my thoughts for your consideration.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 2, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Even though some MA may have things that work better for some people in different applications, I don't know that it would be correct to say any MA is better than another. I think properly learned, all MA are good for SD.
> 
> Just my thoughts for your consideration.


All MA are good for SD. How they are taught can be devestating to Your Abilities.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 2, 2012)

Gemini said:


> Understood. My point is, that to become proficient at any technique requires repetition and more repetition. Learning a little about a lot of things makes that very difficult and most I know that train that way are all around mediocre. Your initial post indicates to me a lack of understanding of the art your training in. In other words, you haven't grasped the capabilities of the techniques that art offers or more likely, just haven't experienced them yet. Most Taekwondo practitioners I know have little knowledge of all the techniques we employ. I'm only suggesting you may want to consider that before moving on to something else. I would recommend a heart to heart with your "traditional" instructor. Let him/her provide a larger picture for you. The techniques are there.



I have to +1 this post.  Taekwondo, like the Karate arts that preceeded it are filled with solid, practical principles of self-defense.  As I always list, they contain, in addition to strikes & kicks principles of locking, choking, throwing, balance displacement, misplacing the bone/tendon, sealing the breath/artery and cavity pressing.  TKD just isn't necessarily taught this way as it has a big sporting aspect.  

In addition to this type of information, the 'way' that training is approached is a major factor.  For additonal reading, if you're interested; http://excoboard.com/martialwarrior/148250/1801375


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## FizzyCal (Feb 2, 2012)

Even though it seems that some don't approve. I found a krav maga school in Chicago at highland park. I will be going there Sunday to check it out. It's called Chicago krav maga. Just wondering if anyone's heard of it or it's reputation. Or if anyone knows of school between Springfield, Il and Chicago? It seems a little pricey. I'd like to find something a little cheaper.


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## WingChunIan (Feb 3, 2012)

fizzycal, my only advice to you would be to stick to styles that compliment the TKD. Whilst every art is different in terms of range etc the most important thing for me if you are blending arts is to find ones that have similar philosophies and common ground in terms of absolute fundamentals. For example studying a style that emphasises rear leg weighting at the same time as one that emphasises front leg weighting, or one that emphasises balls of the toes versus flat of the foot etc will lead to confusion at a subconcious level and reduce your effectiveness in a SHTF situation. As others have said its often the way you train rather than what you train that makes the biggest difference and you might find a new buzz from your TKD simply by taking a tangential approach to your training (try some full contact stuff, some fighting from the floor, use of equipment etc, etc) at the end of the day having a huge tool kit is useless if you can't find the tool that you need.


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## Gemini (Feb 3, 2012)

FizzyCal said:


> Even though it seems that some don't approve. I found a krav maga school in Chicago at highland park.


I don't think it's a matter of approve or don't approve. It was merely advise based on information you provided, but at the end of the day, you have to make the decision you feel is best for you. I'm sure everyone wishes you nothing but success in your search.


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## fenglong (Feb 4, 2012)

or Hapkido. (may also wanna look at other Korean styles such as Hwarangdo...)


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## billc (Feb 4, 2012)

My advice, go and get a permit to purchase a firearm and get training in the art of pistol shooting.  If self-defense is a goal, it is hard to beat training in modern pistol shooting for self-defense.  If you live in a state where citizens can carry a pistol in open or concealed carry, get that training and get that permit and carry a pistol for self-defense.   A person trained in defensive shooting is a hard person to victimize, even by multiple attackers, even when you may be injured or sick, or in the company of family members who are also targets of the attack.  Imagine trying any other art mentioned here with a broken femur in a cast.

If you are looking for another art to study with self-defense applications that isn't pistol shooting, try the FMA.  If you live near chicago I can recommend some instructors, specifically the one I train with.  Let me know.


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## SavageMan (Feb 5, 2012)

First I'd like to thank Ofteherd1 for giving a better description of an art that is gaining in popularity for good reason. Law Enforcement Agencies are starting to see the potential for it's use all over the country. I'd like to offer an olive branch to Fizzycal and some of my own personal experience. I have an Internationally recognized Krav Maga school about an hour 1/2 from me. I spoke with the instructor & the national director about getting a Law Enforcement coarse brought to West Virginia. WV teaches American Combative to LEO. I did my research. As most know its a mix of several arts. Another name for MMA. Do I think its a solid system. Yes. Do I think you can get the same results by going to a gym that practices Jui Jitsu and Muay Thai. Absolutely. And more than likely for a lot less. Thats why I didn't go any further with it than I did. LEOs don't make a lot of money in this state. Right now it's a "key word" like BJJ has been for awhile. Good solid system yes. Well advertised yes. Over priced yes. And before anybody gets huffy thinking I'm knocking their system or art, I'm not. But just about everyone here has agreed before some systems who have come into the limelight for awhile will use the name to make money. (side note the Krav Maga school close to me is actually quite affordable) And when it comes to MMA I don't think it's necessary to go spend big bucks on a system that stems form several and is ever changing. The same as any other MMA. Just like any MMA you just need the right mix of stand up, ground work, and defensive techniques. You have a good base. My suggestion is find an MMA gym and I think you'll get what your looking for. I hope I've been some help.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 6, 2012)

fenglong said:


> or Hapkido. (may also wanna look at other Korean styles such as Hwarangdo...)



Properly taught (in terms of traditional self-defense applications), Taekwondo has many/most of the same principles and techniques found in Hapkido.  One simply has to train in that venue.


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## chinto (Feb 7, 2012)

OK there are a lot of good systems out there.   TKD, well it comes in assorted flavors, from olympic yech, to what the ROK Rangers and ROK Marines use! the latter are serious about self defense and hurting any attacker to death.  but there is of course Okinawan Karate, a much different feel then TKD even of the ROK Marines. there are a lot of other arts, from Aikido to Sambo.  But, there is also the carry and use of a pistol.  either way doesn't matter how good you are, there is always some one better, stronger, faster, better trained.  best defense... don't be there!  other wise train hard. krav is a troop style. designed to be learned relatively fast, and give you tools to deal with most people. ( it was not really intended to teach you to deal with a well trained martial artist but other types of people. criminals on the street as a cop, or conscript soldiers in the military of Isrial ) between them, if you want to do something else, look at Karate, Aikido, Sambo, Systima, even a good kodakan Judo dojo.  or one of the old samurai Jujitsu styles.  most important is to train hard .

my suggestion would be something like Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, or Matsumura Seito.  but then they are my choices for myself.:jediduel:


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## mmartist (Apr 4, 2012)

If it's only for self-defense why don't you try Aikido or Krav Maga? I think that Krav Maga is better because it teaches you how to use your instinctive moves against real-life threats.


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## K-man (Apr 4, 2012)

mmartist said:


> If it's only for self-defense why don't you try Aikido or Krav Maga? I think that Krav Maga is better because it teaches you how to use your instinctive moves against real-life threats.


Krav every time if you need something effective quickly.  I've been learning Aikido over 5 years and still wouldn't trust it alone for SD at this time.


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## Grasshopper22 (Apr 12, 2012)

Krav Maga is the best self-defence martial art in the world IF taught properly! A lot of Krav Maga schools don't teach properly because most people don't actually know the original techniques that were taugh so be careful there. Other than that I would suggest either Aikido or Ju-Jitsu (which I do).


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## K-man (Apr 12, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Krav Maga is the best self-defence martial art in the world IF taught properly! A lot of Krav Maga schools don't teach properly because most people don't actually know the original techniques that were taugh so be careful there. Other than that I would suggest either Aikido or Ju-Jitsu (which I do).


Apart from the fact that this is an old thread, did you actually read it? Did you read my post immediately above yours?  Just how much aikido experience do you have to make that recommendation?



> I would also like to supplement my training with something that could offer *good, practicle self-defense*. I am considering Krav Maga. Anyone have any thoughts on that or perhaps good suggestions for other styles that may have good self-defense? I know that studying a style of martial art is studying self-defense in-and-of-itself. But *I'd like to consider a style that really focuses on "self-defense" *not just hand-to-hand combat (if that makes any sense).



I happen to believe KM is *one* of the best self defence systems, full stop. However, as the OP said, any style of Martial Art is a form of self defence. How effective it is depends on a variety of things including the time you need to spend before you are proficient in using the art for self defence and the quality of instruction.

Now, with regard to your recommendation of aikido to supplement TKD. How long do you think it will take to become proficient?  I can tell you from five and a half years of aikido training with a long background in RB karate, that there is no way I could use pure aikido for self defence.  I reckon I'm still a few years off that level.  Even as a supplement it takes a lot of training before the locks an holds become instinctive. The reason aikido is good for my training is that I can incorporate aspects of it into my teaching. That's not going to be possible for FizzyCal because he is a student of TKD. Another reason aikido would not be in my top five list for *FizzyCal* is that it is a soft art and to blend that softness into TKD would take some doing.

As for jujutsu, fine and probably a good mix with TKD, but still a long training time to become proficient.

For a style that *focuses* on 'good, practical *self defence*', KM is probably the first choice.    :asian:


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## lklawson (Apr 13, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Krav Maga is the best self-defence martial art in the world IF taught properly! A lot of Krav Maga schools don't teach properly because most people don't actually know the original techniques that were taugh so be careful there. Other than that I would suggest either Aikido or Ju-Jitsu (which I do).


And this statement is based on your deep knowledge of KM which you claim elsewhere to have never trained in?  Or is it based on the ~1 month of training you claim to have in JJ?


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 13, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Krav Maga is the best self-defence martial art in the world IF taught properly! A lot of Krav Maga schools don't teach properly because most people don't actually know the original techniques that were taugh so be careful there. Other than that I would suggest either Aikido or Ju-Jitsu (which I do).



With respect, this is incorrect.  That distinction, in the modern era, would go to WWII combatives as taught by Faibairn, Applegate, Sikes, O'Neill etc.  It has the track record for being the most brutal system taught in the shortest amount of time with the highest retention rate in long term memory.  It is gross-motor skill to the extreme.  KM, will good for SD is like TKD (and other arts) in that it has taken an unfortunate turn (IMO) to sport.  The sport applications are often taught in lieu of SD, but called SD.  I can tell you this first hand as I'm a KM instructor, have seen KM being taught here in the west and have compared it to what is taught in Israel (I have family in Israel including a niece in the IDF).


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## WCman1976 (May 29, 2012)

FizzyCal,

I have heard lots of good things about Krav Maga, but I have never actually seen it in action or observed a lesson. 

I didn't have time to read every reply to this thread, so I don't know if anyone has suggested it, but wing chun kung fu is a very practical self-defense style. Why? Because it is close-range, like a lot of real fights. It is also helpful in one situation that grappling isn't: multiple opponents. Last but not least, I have always appreciated the focus on speed over power. A lot of people don't see the point in focusing on hitting your opponent with a string of "weak" punches and expending a bunch of energy when you could go for one killer knockout blow and be done with it. Here is the reason I see behind it: if my string of "weak" punches crashes into your nose while you are still winding up for that knockout blow (which never lands), then who will win the fight?

Again, wing chun is my personal preference. There were a lot of other good styles suggested on the replies that I had the time to read.


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## rickster (May 29, 2012)

"Back in the Day", it was not unusal that TKD was supplemented with Yudo, Hapkido, etc., which were focused on a self defense curriculum separate from the TKD

I came across a few TKD instructors nowadays, who actually become concern with self defnse, as their clintele base is those whom want the sport or fun activity of it.

Self Defense "isn't all about" learning "physical applications"


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## K-man (May 29, 2012)

WCman1976 said:


> I didn't have time to read every reply to this thread, so I don't know if anyone has suggested it, but wing chun kung fu is a very practical self-defense style. Why? Because it is close-range, like a lot of real fights. It is also helpful in one situation that grappling isn't: multiple opponents. Last but not least, I have always appreciated the focus on speed over power. A lot of people don't see the point in focusing on hitting your opponent with a string of "weak" punches and expending a bunch of energy when you could go for one killer knockout blow and be done with it. Here is the reason I see behind it: if my string of "weak" punches crashes into your nose while you are still winding up for that knockout blow (which never lands), then who will win the fight?
> 
> Again, wing chun is my personal preference. There were a lot of other good styles suggested on the replies that I had the time to read.


The OP was asking for suggestions of an art to _supplement_ his TKD in terms of self defence. Do you think someone would benefit from training both WC and TKD and how long until it might be useful for SD?    :asian:


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## WC_lun (May 29, 2012)

I believe it is the instructor and the training regimen which will determine if a system is more defense orientated or sport, not the system per se.  Does the school train for sporting or do they train for slef defense?  I would be wary of schools that offer to be the best of both worlds.  While there certainly is some cross-over, there is a completely different mind set to training for sport and defense.

The midwest is a big place   If you are near the Kansas City area I could give you a couple of schools' names.


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## WCman1976 (May 30, 2012)

K-man said:


> The OP was asking for suggestions of an art to _supplement_ his TKD in terms of self defence. Do you think someone would benefit from training both WC and TKD and how long until it might be useful for SD? :asian:



The very nature of his post implies training in two styles at once.


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## K-man (May 30, 2012)

WCman1976 said:


> The very nature of his post implies training in two styles at once.


Exactly. I think some may have missed that point.    :asian:


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## chinto (May 31, 2012)

OK, on record, the old Fairbairn-Applegate art called defendu is simple nasty and brutally effective for SD.  Krav is like Defendu a troop style, it is not intended like the Fairbairn style is not intended to deal with a trained martial artist. 

Aikido takes a long time in and of its self to become proficient enough to use on the street in Self Defense, that said when you get to that point it is very effective.

  It all depends on what level of threat you are looking at and how you wish to deal with it.  the troop styles are effective for what they are designed for. they are great for SD training in a relatively short time.

Many other styles will over time surpass them, but is that what you are looking for?  Decide what level of threat, what kind of threat, ( lethal, non lethal, fire arms, blades or what have you ) and how much you wish to need to train to deal with them.  if they are trained martial artists its going to change things from the normal street criminals. ( unlikely you will ever be attacked by a trained martial artist!)   but again decide the threat, and then go looking with that in mind.


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## frank raud (May 31, 2012)

chinto said:


> OK, on record, the old Fairbairn-Applegate art called defendu is simple nasty and brutally effective for SD.  Krav is like Defendu a troop style, it is not intended like the Fairbairn style is not intended to deal with a trained martial artist.



Applegate had nothing to do with Defendu, Fairbairn and Sykes had stopped teaching it by the time Applegate became involved with them. Defendu was a police control and restraint art. The WWII combatives as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate were taught both to troops and to individuals(spies and sabatouers). It matters not what your opponent knows, as there is no blocking or countering in the system, as it is based on agression and forward drive.


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## frank raud (May 31, 2012)

From the back cover of Get Tough!   "Fairbairn's task was to invent a style of fighting which would enable the outnumbered constabulary to lick the gangsters and cutthroats to a standstill.
It had to be better than jiu-jutsu(judo)."

Sounds like it was developed to work against trained martial artists.


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## chinto (Jun 2, 2012)

frank raud said:


> Applegate had nothing to do with Defendu, Fairbairn and Sykes had stopped teaching it by the time Applegate became involved with them. Defendu was a police control and restraint art. The WWII combatives as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate were taught both to troops and to individuals(spies and sabatouers). It matters not what your opponent knows, as there is no blocking or countering in the system, as it is based on agression and forward drive.




well I have had people tell me they adopted the name defendo to to the  fairbairn, sykes, Applegate system.....


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 2, 2012)

As a side note, I believe Kelly McCann aka Jim Grover teaches from the Fairbairn/Sykes/O'Neill model and I know that Carl Cestari did (RIP).  I don't remember exactly who followed up after Carl...Matt Damon maybe?  

Charles Nelson also taught from that model and last I heard you can still purchase his Little Red Book from his granddaughter.  I used to have the address but have lost it over the years.


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## frank raud (Jun 2, 2012)

chinto said:


> well I have had people tell me they adopted the name defendo to to the  fairbairn, sykes, Applegate system.....



They would be incorrect. Defendo refers either to the Bill Underwood post WWII police art, or Modern Defendo by Bill Wolfe. DEFENDU was prior to the FAS system, and is a more complete system, with a large section on restraint and controls. Defendu the book shows approximately 300 + techniques, Get Tough!, the basis of the FAS system prior to the development by Sykes of the Silent Killing Syllabus has  less than 30. The Silent Killing Syllabus pares down from there. The techniques in the FAS system(s) can be found in Defendu, but it is a stripped down art that was specifically designed to be taught in a short period of time. FAS comes from Defendu, but is not Defendu.


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## frank raud (Jun 2, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> As a side note, I believe Kelly McCann aka Jim Grover teaches from the Fairbairn/Sykes/O'Neill model and I know that Carl Cestari did (RIP).  I don't remember exactly who followed up after Carl...Matt Damon maybe?
> 
> Charles Nelson also taught from that model and last I heard you can still purchase his Little Red Book from his granddaughter.  I used to have the address but have lost it over the years.



Jim Grover's combatives are a mix of Applegate(through John Kary) and FMA.  Never seen anything from him that would put him in the O'Neill camp, but I could be wrong.
Carl Cestari definitely taught FAS and O'Neill, both as stand alone systems and combined. I attended several weekend long seminars with  Carl, he definitely put us through our paces. Charles Nelson's books are now available through Paladin.


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## HapKiDo Bob (Jun 7, 2012)

FizzyCal said:


> I currently train in a traditional style of Tae Kwon Do as my ranking Martial Art and have been supplementing it with various other arts for grappling and weapons training. I would also like to supplement my training with something that could offer good, practicle self-defense. I am considering Krav Maga. Anyone have any thoughts on that or perhaps good suggestions for other styles that may have good self-defense? I know that studying a style of martial art is studying self-defense in-and-of-itself. But I'd like to consider a style that really focuses on "self-defense" not just hand-to-hand combat (if that makes any sense). If you have any thoughts or suggestions, would you also have recommendations for good, reputable instructors? Perhaps a seminar that they offer?
> 
> Thanks



Hey FizzzyCal, 

I understand your dilemma completely. I've been training in Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan since the early 80s. I Love it, it has great Self Defense skills and I wouldn't trade my experience for the world. That being said there is always room for more martial arts for your arsenal of Self Defense. Hap Ki Do is another Korean Martial Art that focuses on Self Defense by use of Joint Locks, Throws, and Strikes (among many other things including weapons, depending on the Kwan). It stands alone as a very powerful and effective Self Defense System. It has been a great experience for me so far and I'm learning a lot that I didn't learn in Tae Kwon Do over the years (because it's a different martial art). I think if you research it thoroughly and find the Style of Hap Ki Do that works for you, it will serve as a great additional Self Defense Art. 

My 2 Cents. 

Bob


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## HapKiDo Bob (Jun 7, 2012)

Good Luck.


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## rickster (Jun 7, 2012)

HapKiDo Bob said:


> Hey FizzzyCal,
> 
> I understand your dilemma completely. I've been training in Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan since the early 80s. I Love it, it has great Self Defense skills and I wouldn't trade my experience for the world. That being said there is always room for more martial arts for your arsenal of Self Defense. Hap Ki Do is another Korean Martial Art that focuses on Self Defense by use of Joint Locks, Throws, and Strikes (among many other things including weapons, depending on the Kwan). It stands alone as a very powerful and effective Self Defense System. It has been a great experience for me so far and I'm learning a lot that I didn't learn in Tae Kwon Do over the years (because it's a different martial art). I think if you research it thoroughly and find the Style of Hap Ki Do that works for you, it will serve as a great additional Self Defense Art.
> 
> ...



I was in Hapkido. Somewhat like Aikido


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 7, 2012)

rickster said:


> I was in Hapkido. Somewhat like Aikido



What makes you say that? It is my understanding that the two have very different mindsets or approaches to training and methodology. Aikido is a Japanese art which strives to not defeat or destroy your enemy but to harmonize with them whereas Hapkido is a Korean art with a far more aggressive mentality and often aims to maim or kill (similar to Krav). 

Now I know I'm stating the obvious by pointing out the country of origin for each art but that plays a huge part in attitudes, structure of the art and teaching and training methodologies. You don't train a Korean system with a Japanese attitude or vice versa and expect to do either any justice. They must be taken on their own merits. 

All that said, I tried (a version) of Krav for a few months and found it wasn't for me personally. Yes it was very gross motor but a lot of it seemed extreme and the concept of appropriate force was a little skewed. Granted the school kept pointing out it's not a sport system, it's based on the same principles used by the IDF but IMO those weren't applicable to the society *I* live in. If the OP was still looking for something to bring their *Self Defense* up to speed, I'd probably suggest looking at something like an RBSD school personally, for a couple of reasons. Reality Based Self Defense is going to be geared up for just that. Reality based self defense as it is applicable to your environment. Not a war zone halfway around the world but around the corner or at the end of your street. Also, it's not a martial art, there are not as many "forms" or traditions to follow which in turn helps remove the confusion that can arise from cross training in arts quite effectively.


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## rickster (Jun 7, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> What makes you say that? It is my understanding that the two have very different mindsets or approaches to training and methodology. Aikido is a Japanese art which strives to not defeat or destroy your enemy but to harmonize with them whereas Hapkido is a Korean art with a far more aggressive mentality and often aims to maim or kill .



I think you maybe a tad mistaken on your Hapkido

Although both have the same roots and share many of the same methods


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## Cyriacus (Jun 7, 2012)

*Googles*

Hapkido:





Aikido:





Boxing has its roots in Pugilism. But Pugilism barely resembles Boxing as it is now.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 7, 2012)

FizzyCal said:


> When I say "traditional" I mean we study Tae Kwon Do as it was handed down from Jhoon Rhee through our lineage, but is not the "current" Jhoon Rhee system. It is not associated with ITF, WTF, ATA, or any other TKD association.



Texkwondo, Allan Steen type stuff? That's a very legit self-defense system in and of itself. "Nobody bodders me!"

That said I like Judo for self defense, or Jujutsu, or even hapkido.


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## chinto (Jun 13, 2012)

I prefer Okinawan Karate myself for self defense.  but all have good things in them generally.


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## Instructor (Jun 13, 2012)

I recently had the honor of teaching a student with a Krav Maga background.  He absolutely loved Hapkido and told me when he gets to his next unit he would be seeking further Hapkido instruction.  He was really interested in how we solve certain problems very differently.

I would hazard that Krav Maga would not add much to good TKD instruction whereas Hapkido might go a long way towards filling in the blanks.  The systems of TKD and HKD are highly compatible, they have similar stances and philosophy.

Again proficiency in Tae Kwon Do is nothing to turn your nose up at.  If used properly TKD can be a force to be reckoned with. 

The differences between Aikido and Hapkido are substantial.  For example you probably wouldn't see an Aikidoka deliver an attack to the throat or a side kick to the knee. You probably wouldn&#8217;t see many eye gouges or other aggressive tactics.

Just so I am clear I am a big fan of all arts mentioned here.  I see them all as being effective if the person practicing them puts in the time.


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## FabianosKarate (Oct 23, 2012)

Very good points on here!  While I don't particularly care for (personally) Tae Kwon Do, I think that any style that someone works towards and "masters" is a good style for self defense. Our head Sensei, Mr. Tom Fabiano, is a 3rd Degree in Tae Kwon Do. The flexibility and technique of his kicks are excellent, however he does not like the stances and some of the techniques. Sensei Fabiano is also a 6th Degree in Kobayashi Shorin-ryu. We also take techniques and applications from that style.

I think the best answer is a good variety of techniques from many proven styles.


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