# Turning Kick in Taegeuk 6



## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 28, 2013)

When doing the turning kick (roundhouse kick) in taegeuk 6, is the striking surface the ball of the foot? It appears to be from this video (16 seconds and 30 seconds).  However, I've never seen a WTF/KKW club teach the turning kick with the ball of the foot (unlike ITF clubs which seem to teach it), so I've been doing the pattern with the instep as the striking surface.


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## sopraisso (Nov 28, 2013)

I believe both striking surfaces are acceptable to Kukkiwon, but the ball of the foot is favoured when doing forms. Instep is typically preferred  in WTF rules competition, though. That's how I've been taught, at least. ;-)
Remember WTF and Kukkiwon are not the same and the martial aspects (Kukkiwon) usually differ from the Olympic sport aspects (WTF).

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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 28, 2013)

sopraisso said:


> Remember WTF and Kukkiwon are not the same and the martial aspects (Kukkiwon) usually differ from the Olympic sport aspects (WTF).


Agreed. What I called the WTF/KKW clubs are the ones that use the KKW forms and BB registration, and send their students to WTF tournaments.


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## sopraisso (Nov 28, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Agreed. What I called the WTF/KKW clubs are the ones that use the KKW forms and BB registration, and send their students to WTF tournaments.



The influence of tournaments probably makes kicking with the ball of foot less and less common in Kukkiwon schools. The GM of my school tells to favour ball of foot when we're practicing forms and step sparring but instep in basics and WTF sparring (there's no other kind of sparring there). Result: almost no-one really knows to perform round kicks with ball of foot. Sigh...

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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2013)

You can tell something of a persons training by watching the roundhouse and the hook kicks.

Those who train primarily for the sporting aspects of TKD will kick with the instep and the ball of the foot, respectively.
Those who train primarily for self defense will kick with the ball of the foot and heel, respectively.

I've seen references from the KKW showing both methods. 
In the videos with the KKW-released iPhone app, the kick is demonstrated as being done with the ball of the foot.
In *Complete Taekwondo Poomsae* by GM LEE, Kyu Hyung and GM KIM, Sang H, the roundhouse is described as being with the ball of the foot.
The video you posted, which is a clip from a DVD series released by the KKW, also shows it as being the ball of the foot.
However, in this video featuring GM LEE, Kyu Hyung (current head of the KKW and long time director of their poomsae team), you can see that the roundhouse is done with the instep. I would say this is a clear indication that either is acceptable, at least for poomsae.






At our school, we teach both techniques with both kicks. Students are taught that the ball (or heel) of the foot must be used against hard targets, with the instep (or ball) of the foot being used for poomsae or striking soft targets. In sparring, lower ranks use the instep (or ball) of the foot because it lessens the chance of injury.

We require that breaks done with the roundhouse be done with the ball of the foot. With the hook, they must be done with the heel. I've done breaks with the instep, but never more than 2".

Ask your Master what he wants to see in your school for testing and competition purposes and do it that way.


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## andyjeffries (Nov 29, 2013)

When I was at the Kukkiwon in July for the Foreign Taekwondo Master Training Course (what used to be called the Foreign Instructor Course), I asked this specific question.  The answer was that the instep is OK, the ball of the foot with the ankle straight (like a front kick at 18:28 in the Kukkiwon Basic Motions 2 video*) is OK, the ball of the foot with the ankle at 90 degrees was NOT OK.  This seems strange so I visually clarified it by holding my foot in the three positions and it was confirmed that I'd understood correctly (the instructor demonstrate with thumbs up to the first two and crossed arms for the the third in the common Korean X style to indicate no or not possible). Still, it didn't sit well with me overnight as the second option feels a very weird position to turning kick in, so the next day I asked our next instructor on the course the same question and got exactly the same answer.

In the video of GM Lee's students above, it's hard to tell, but I think it's done with the foot extended and the toes pulled back (option 2 above).  I got the feeling that this is the preferred option (because that is the way the instructor demonstrated it when teaching the pattern during that session), but that instep is also OK.  This is also how GM Hwang In Sik demonstrates it in the Kukkiwon Basic Motions 2 video*.

Hope this helps...

*


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## skribs (Nov 29, 2013)

I've never learned to do a roundhouse kick with the ball of my foot.  I've always been told "instep, so you don't hurt your toes."


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 29, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> .. the ball of the foot with the ankle straight (like a front kick at 18:28 in the Kukkiwon Basic Motions 2 video*) is OK, the ball of the foot with the ankle at 90 degrees was NOT OK.
> *



Wow, I'd find it very risky and difficult to kick with the ball of my foot without pulling my foot bock.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 29, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


>


The turning kick in this video is so much more linear (i.e., no arc) than I've ever seen.  I'm not sure whether a turning kick that linear could be effective in hitting the side of an opponent.  Comments?


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## WaterGal (Nov 29, 2013)

skribs said:


> I've never learned to do a roundhouse kick with the ball of my foot.  I've always been told "instep, so you don't hurt your toes."


 
The reason for doing it with the ball of the foot is that the metatarsels (bones on the top of your foot) are fragile, so doing it that way with a lot of power against a hard surface is a good way to injure yourself.  Same thing with doing a front kick with the top of foot.  (Edit: It's much easier to jam your toes than bruise/break your metatarsels, so the former injury tends to get more attention.)

But if you're just doing WTF sparring and not planning on breaking thick boards or concrete pavers with your kick, don't worry about it.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 29, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The turning kick in this video is so much more linear (i.e., no arc) than I've ever seen. I'm not sure whether a turning kick that linear could be effective in hitting the side of an opponent. Comments?



The KKW demo team (and others I know personally who focus heavily on poomsae competition) tend to throw this kick in a more linear fashion. I've always understood it as being something they do in pursuit of a higher score, not anything that would make the kick more effective.



WaterGal said:


> The reason for doing it with the ball of the foot is that the metatarsels (bones on the top of your foot) are fragile, so doing it that way with a lot of power against a hard surface is a good way to injure yourself. Same thing with doing a front kick with the top of foot. (Edit: It's much easier to jam your toes than bruise/break your metatarsels, so the former injury tends to get more attention.)



This is incorrect. Kicking with either the ball or the instep will place the impact on the metatarsals. The difference is that kicking with the instep causes the impact to be *across* the bone, rather than *along* the bone. Kicking with the tarsals (toes) is an entirely different subject, and not at all what we're talking about here.



WaterGal said:


> But if you're just doing WTF sparring and not planning on breaking thick boards or concrete pavers with your kick, don't worry about it.



Right. Because we shouldn't even consider the possibility that we might use a martial art for self defense, eh?


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## Jaeimseu (Nov 30, 2013)

You can make viable arguments for using the instep or the balls of the feet for roundkick.

"Power" breaking with a roundkick isn't something I ever see in Korea. Breaking a thin board doesn't require the ball of the foot. Even a 3/4 - 1 inch thick board can be done pretty easily with the instep if you've done any significant target kicking. The only thing difficult is to kick so that the instep is striking the center of the target, and not the toes.

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## msmitht (Nov 30, 2013)

The kick is done with the instep, toes pointed.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 1, 2013)

sopraisso said:


> I believe both striking surfaces are acceptable to Kukkiwon, but the ball of the foot is favoured when doing forms. Instep is typically preferred  in WTF rules competition, though. That's how I've been taught, at least. ;-)
> Remember WTF and Kukkiwon are not the same and the martial aspects (Kukkiwon) usually differ from the Olympic sport aspects (WTF).
> 
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@
The theory is that the ball of the foot is a harder surface area, which makes for better breaking than the instep. This technique is fine with a static target; however, in a dynamic situation, I would use the instep. It is too easy to jam or break a toe while trying to kick with the ball of the foot.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 1, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> You can make viable arguments for using the instep or the balls of the feet for roundkick.
> 
> "Power" breaking with a roundkick isn't something I ever see in Korea. Breaking a thin board doesn't require the ball of the foot. Even a 3/4 - 1 inch thick board can be done pretty easily with the instep if you've done any significant target kicking. The only thing difficult is to kick so that the instep is striking the center of the target, and not the toes.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk



Not in tkd, but if you go to a soobahkdo dojang or a similar type school, you will see it. In Seoul, there is sbd club near the women's university.


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## skribs (Dec 1, 2013)

> The theory is that the ball of the foot is a harder surface area, which  makes for better breaking than the instep. This technique is fine with a  static target; however, in a dynamic situation, I would use the instep.  It is too easy to jam or break a toe while trying to kick with the ball  of the foot.



This would be my fear, and why I don't even want to practice using the ball of the foot for a round kick.  It's much easier to get the toes up on a front kick.


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 1, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Not in tkd, but if you go to a soobahkdo dojang or a similar type school, you will see it. In Seoul, there is sbd club near the women's university.



I'm sure there are plenty of non-tkd clubs that do roundkick any number of ways. I didn't mean to imply that I was talking about anything other than tkd, since the OP referenced Taeguek 6.

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## chrispillertkd (Dec 1, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> When I was at the Kukkiwon in July for the Foreign Taekwondo Master Training Course (what used to be called the Foreign Instructor Course), I asked this specific question.  The answer was that the instep is OK, *the ball of the foot with the ankle straight (like a front kick at 18:28 in the Kukkiwon Basic Motions 2 video*) is OK*, the ball of the foot with the ankle at 90 degrees was NOT OK.



Wow, I have never seen a turning kick executed like you described (until I watched the video - and I think it's performed that way in the second video posted, too; hard to tell). I find it hard to visualize the attacking tool actually being the ball of the foot when the ankle is held straight even if the toes are pulled back. How have you found hitting with the ball of the foot in this position? Can you get as much power as when your ankle is at a 90 degree angle? What is the trajectory of the attacking tool when you're foot is in this position (hitting with the ball of the foot when your ankle is bent is quite natural since your leg is making a semi-circle; with the position you mention I'm not sure how you're supposed to be hitting your opponent)?  

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 1, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> However, I've never seen a WTF/KKW club teach the turning kick with the ball of the foot (*unlike ITF clubs which seem to teach it*...



The ITF teaches that the turning kick can have the following attacking tools: ball of the foot, instep, toes (with the shoes on), and the knee. Every instance of a turning kick in our patterns is specified to use the ball of the foot, however. 

Pax,

Chris


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## skribs (Dec 1, 2013)

I can see the knee without extending the leg (like a MT round knee), but attacking with the knee with the leg straight would seem more painful to the kicker than the attacker IMO.  I know MT likes to use the shin instead of the instep in their round kick.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 2, 2013)

Yes, the knee is used with the leg bent. It's a very close-range kick when using the knee.

Pax,

Chris


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2013)

I think most of us just call that a knee strike rather than a roundhouse kick with the knee. 


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## skribs (Dec 2, 2013)

Yeah, but a lot of places consider any attack with the leg to be a "kick".  I'm with you, though.  Sharp knee strikes = knee, not kick.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2013)

skribs said:


> Yeah, but a lot of places consider any attack with the leg to be a "kick".  I'm with you, though.  Sharp knee strikes = knee, not kick.



Odd. Since the definition of "kick" is to strike with the foot. 


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## Thousand Kicks (Dec 2, 2013)

As usual in a question of which is the right way the answer is "It depends"

When striking with the ball of the foot
1. The striking area is smaller resulting in in a more concentrated striking area that can do more localized damage
2. I was always taught to position my foot like a side kick when striking with the ball of the foot. This causes you to loose range on the kick. I have never tried pointing the foot and hitting with the ball; I will have to experiment.
3. The toes are at risk of damage should they inadvertently strike something in the process of the kick

When striking with the instep
1. In my opinion, it is a more natural position of the foot and should feel easier and more comfortable to perform
2. Increased range. At least compared to the 90 degree foot position
3. The surface area is larger and so the localized damage is less
4. You also take the risk of hyperextending your ankle should your hit too far out on your foot

 Both options are vialble and saying you shouldn't practice one way versus the other can limit your understanding of the technique. It is similar to using a palm heel versus a knuckle punch, both work but there are reasons you would do one over the other in a given situation.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 2, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think most of us just call that a knee strike rather than a roundhouse kick with the knee.



Indeed, but _almost_ anything done with the foot or parts of the leg in ITF Taekwon-Do was designated as a "kick" by Gen. Choi. Even sweeps are actually "sweeping kicks." 

A "strike" is a type of attack performed with the hand or, sometimes, elbow (as opposed to a "punch" or "thrust"). 

Pax,

Chris


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## skribs (Dec 2, 2013)

I said "in many places."  Arguing whether or not it's technically a kick is arguing over semantics.  I specified I do not consider it a kick for clarity on what I'm talking about 

I see the advantages for using the ball of foot (essentially a denser impact, like using a hammer instead of a paddle), but I think the toes are right there.  Compared with a front kick, where your foot can more easily angle to get the ball of the foot onto the target.  I also wonder if the round kicks that use ball of foot are thrown more like front kicks (there are a few people I've seen who throw it almost straight when aiming high).

I'd think you'd hurt the foot or toes before the ankle kicking with the instep.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 4, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The turning kick in this video is so much more linear (i.e., no arc) than I've ever seen.  I'm not sure whether a turning kick that linear could be effective in hitting the side of an opponent.  Comments?



Sure, my comment is that you don't hit the side of the opponent, you hit the front of the face with the ball of the foot.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 4, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> Wow, I have never seen a turning kick executed like you described (until I watched the video - and I think it's performed that way in the second video posted, too; hard to tell). I find it hard to visualize the attacking tool actually being the ball of the foot when the ankle is held straight even if the toes are pulled back. How have you found hitting with the ball of the foot in this position? Can you get as much power as when your ankle is at a 90 degree angle? What is the trajectory of the attacking tool when you're foot is in this position (hitting with the ball of the foot when your ankle is bent is quite natural since your leg is making a semi-circle; with the position you mention I'm not sure how you're supposed to be hitting your opponent)?



To be honest, I've never hit anything like that.  If I'm breaking a board I go for the full foot-and-toes-pulled-back position, if I'm sparring I use the instep.  It's only during this specific pattern that I do as the Kukkiwon instructors recommended.

That said theoretically I don't think it's a problem.  If you can kick with a front kick with your foot in this position, it's exactly the same kick but rotated through a 90 degree plane.The extension momentum and the striking surface is then identical.  So I don't think it would be a problem.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 4, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> Sure, my comment is that you don't hit the side of the opponent, you hit the front of the face with the ball of the foot.


Wow, that totally changes the thinking behind the kick.  I've never seen that kick in practice, but I will have to try it.


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## SJON (Dec 4, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> To be honest, I've never hit anything like that.  If I'm breaking a board I go for the full foot-and-toes-pulled-back position, if I'm sparring I use the instep.  It's only during this specific pattern that I do as the Kukkiwon instructors recommended.
> 
> That said theoretically I don't think it's a problem.  If you can kick with a front kick with your foot in this position, it's exactly the same kick but rotated through a 90 degree plane.The extension momentum and the striking surface is then identical.  So I don't think it would be a problem.



Andy,

If I understand you correctly, you had never seen this variation previously (which makes it one of those "new changes" I keep going on about), you never use it except in that pattern context, you're not really convinced by it and you did not obtain an satisfactory answer regarding this execution from KKW instructors in Korea. I was always taught to kick with the ball of the foot in this pattern, although I have heard that the instep may be acceptable.

Is this not an obvious case of a rather absurd variation that has been proposed just to be different? Does it not call into question the current generation of KKW instructors' motivation and their understanding of the forms? Bear in mind that the KKW and the 1967/1972 KTA Poomse Committee are not analogous.

Serious question, not looking to criticise just for the sake of it.

Cheers,

Simon


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## andyjeffries (Dec 4, 2013)

SJON said:


> If I understand you correctly, you had never seen this variation previously (which makes it one of those "new changes" I keep going on about)



It may have just been that there is better education on the correct standards now than there used to be.



SJON said:


> you never use it except in that pattern context



Correct



SJON said:


> you're not really convinced by it



I'm convinced what they told me is accurate according to current Kukkiwon standards.  I'm convinced that it's a plausable explanation of a correct technique (as I posted earlier, kicking with this part in a front kick is perfectly normal, so why it would be incorrect/implausible for a turning kick is beyond me). 



SJON said:


> you did not obtain an satisfactory answer regarding this execution from KKW instructors in Korea.



I felt I did receive a satisfactory answer.  I wasn't convinced I understood the first guy correctly, I was willing to assume it was my mistake in understanding.  However, after getting a consistent view from two high level Kukkiwon instructors I believe the answer was satisfactory.



SJON said:


> I was always taught to kick with the ball of the foot in this pattern, although I have heard that the instep may be acceptable.



This is correct, but it just depends on the shape when you kick with the ball of the foot 



SJON said:


> Is this not an obvious case of a rather absurd variation that has been proposed just to be different? Does it not call into question the current generation of KKW instructors' motivation and their understanding of the forms? Bear in mind that the KKW and the 1967/1972 KTA Poomse Committee are not analogous.



That's correct, but Taekwondo is a changing martial art.  ITF Taekwon-do has tried to stay true to its roots and not change too much, Karate (in particular Shotokan) tries to stay true to the way it was originally done.  Kukki-Taekwondo has always been a changing martial art.  From the starting positions in blocks, kicking shapes, everything is open to changing.

I think it's wrong of people to be concerned over "new changes", I think the art changing to improve over time is a good thing - and it's also a good thing for all practitioners and instructors to undergo Continuing Professional Development, including attending courses to learn the current standards in our art.


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## skribs (Dec 4, 2013)

I think with a front kick it's easier to get the toes out of the way.  With a round kick, you have to really angle your foot and toes to keep the toes out of the way.


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## SJON (Dec 4, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> I'm convinced what they told me is accurate according to current Kukkiwon standards.  I'm convinced that it's a plausable explanation of a correct technique (as I posted earlier, kicking with this part in a front kick is perfectly normal, so why it would be incorrect/implausible for a turning kick is beyond me).
> 
> I felt I did receive a satisfactory answer.  I wasn't convinced I understood the first guy correctly, I was willing to assume it was my mistake in understanding.  However, after getting a consistent view from two high level Kukkiwon instructors I believe the answer was satisfactory.



Let me rephrase the question. Why in the world would you want to kick like this (other than to appease some Korean fellows)? Can you personally see any _practical _justification for kicking like this rather than with the ball of the foot and 90º ankle position? What I mean is, objectively speaking, can you give any reason why this way of kicking should be taken seriously?



andyjeffries said:


> That's correct, but Taekwondo is a changing martial art.  ITF Taekwon-do has tried to stay true to its roots and not change too much, Karate (in particular Shotokan) tries to stay true to the way it was originally done.  Kukki-Taekwondo has always been a changing martial art.  From the starting positions in blocks, kicking shapes, everything is open to changing.
> 
> I think it's wrong of people to be concerned over "new changes", I think the art changing to improve over time is a good thing - and it's also a good thing for all practitioners and instructors to undergo Continuing Professional Development, including attending courses to learn the current standards in our art.



Wait a minute. Didn't we have another conversation in which I was insisting that changes had been introduced over the years and you were adamant that the standard has been the same since 1972 and there had been no changes, just that only recently the KKW has become stricter about encouraging conformity?

Cheers,

Simon


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 4, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> To be honest, I've never hit anything like that.  If I'm breaking a board I go for the full foot-and-toes-pulled-back position, if I'm sparring I use the instep.  It's only during this specific pattern that I do as the Kukkiwon instructors recommended.



Are there other KKW patterns with turning kicks in them? If so are they performed like the kicks in this pattern or differently (with the instep or the ball of the foot with the ankle bent)? 



> That said theoretically I don't think it's a problem.  If you can kick with a front kick with your foot in this position, it's exactly the same kick but rotated through a 90 degree plane.The extension momentum and the striking surface is then identical.  So I don't think it would be a problem.



The ITF has a _somewhat_ similar kick which hits with the ball of the foot while the leg is "on its side" (as opposed to its orientation in a front snap kick). A side _thrusting_ kick is executed like a side piercing kick but instead of the footsword the ball of the foot is used and the preparation position for the kick has the leg lifted so it is horizontal to the floor. The leg is then thrust forward towards the target, hitting with no rotation (unlike a side piercing kick). 

My question about this particular turning kick is, how effective is it since you still have an arcing trajectory (albeit, judging from the video, a small one)? If the target is, as you said, the front of someone's face then a kick with no arc would seem more logical to me. 

Do you know of any video showing this kick's application, by any chance?

Pax,

Chris


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## SJON (Dec 5, 2013)

Unless I am much mistaken, there are only two round kicks in the whole of the current (i.e. Taegeuk & BB forms) KKW pattern corpus, which are the ones in Taegeuk Youk Jang. This in itself is rather a surprise, given that the high round kick has become one of TKD's signature techniques. Further evidence, to my mind, of the disconnect between the largely Okinawan-based "traditional" martial art for fighting and self-defence on the one hand, and the distinctly Korean perhaps-Taekkyon-influenced recreational/educational activity on the other.

I'm really having trouble visualising under what circumstances I would want to turn sideways and poke at my opponent with my foot, when I could just front or side kick him, or even better, close in and hit him with my hands. Perhaps it's a very specialised technique as a simultaneous counter to an opponent's round kick (his legs must be no longer than yours) in which you use those critical extra 6" of reach to poke him in the eye 

Meanwhile I'm going to stick with the applications I teach for these two pattern sequences, which involve a shin kick to the leg and a ball-of-foot kick to the liver area.

Cheers,

Simon


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## SJON (Dec 5, 2013)

Now that I think of it, I'm fairly sure I've seen videos of Taekkyon competition in which the round kick is more of a sideways-on forward face poke with a very minimal curve than the circular TKD round kick. Can anyone comment on the correct execution of the Taekkyon version? Could this variation to the TKD pattern version be a new attempt to link to Taekkyon?

Best regards,

Simon


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 5, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> Are there other KKW patterns with turning kicks in them? If so are they performed like the kicks in this pattern or differently (with the instep or the ball of the foot with the ankle bent)?



No. Taegeuk Yook Jang is the only one. There was a form developed a few years ago called "hanryu" that was intended to be a yudanja competition form that included a front/round/spinning back kick combo but it never caught on and wasn't ever "Officially" implemented (although it was demonstrated a few times). The demos of hanryu I've seen have the roundhouse done with the instep.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&amp;video_id=oJQjNHSuJ-c&amp;feature=vm[/video]


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## WaterGal (Dec 5, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> Breaking a thin board doesn't require the ball of the foot. Even a 3/4 - 1 inch thick board can be done pretty easily with the instep if you've done any significant target kicking.



Sure, sure.  My concern with top of foot breaks is with kids, or if you're trying to break multiple boards.  I've had 8-year olds want to break a 1-inch board that way, and it's just not a good idea.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 5, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Sure, sure.  My concern with top of foot breaks is with kids, or if you're trying to break multiple boards.  I've had 8-year olds want to break a 1-inch board that way, and it's just not a good idea.



We require a roundhouse break of at least one 1" board. But we also require that it be done properly, with the ball of the foot. We allow instep roundhouses only in forms or against soft targets.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 5, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> The ITF has a _somewhat_ similar kick which hits with the ball of the foot while the leg is "on its side" (as opposed to its orientation in a front snap kick). A side _thrusting_ kick is executed like a side piercing kick but instead of the footsword the ball of the foot is used and the preparation position for the kick has the leg lifted so it is horizontal to the floor. The leg is then thrust forward towards the target, hitting with no rotation (unlike a side piercing kick).



Can you point to a video of that kick, it does not seem like a very good way to do a side kick to me?


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## andyjeffries (Dec 6, 2013)

SJON said:


> Wait a minute. Didn't we have another conversation in which I was insisting that changes had been introduced over the years and you were adamant that the standard has been the same since 1972 and there had been no changes, just that only recently the KKW has become stricter about encouraging conformity?



Possibly, but I can't find the thread to determine why the apparent conflict in my thinking.  I think the two thoughts aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, depending on the exact phrasing/what's being talked about...


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## msmitht (Dec 6, 2013)

The proper way is with the toes pointed. I have been to 3 different kkw master instructor courses in the past 7 years. 2 were in the USA, one was in Korea. In all three we practiced with the instep and toes pointed for taeguek 6. The teachers were all 8th and 9th Dan and 2 are poomsae world champions. I'm pretty sure they were teaching current standards.


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## BoA36 (Dec 6, 2013)

Please look at the video 




At about 5:38 into it you will see the roundhouse done with the ball of the foot and at 6:00 with the instep.  The beginning of the video states it was made under supervision of Gen. Choi.  Clearly this goes back a long way, likely the late 60's.  Kicking instrument depends on point of attack.  A great "old school" video.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 6, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> We require a roundhouse break of at least one 1" board. But we also require that it be done properly, with the ball of the foot.


Is the foot bent at 90 degrees (or pi/2 radians for the metric people)?  Have you seen anyone injure toes while doing the board breaking?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2013)

The exact angle of the ankle (you really can't bend your foot...) depends on the exact placement of the board. The ankle is at an angle that results in the impact being on the ball if the foot with the tarsals in line with the impact. 
By the time they're breaking with the kick, students have learned to keep the toes out of it. Sprains have occurred, but earlier, when they're kicking targets or pads. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## msmitht (Dec 6, 2013)

An excellent video. Seen it many times. Not the best for referencing how to perform the kick according to kikkiwon standards, but an excellent old school video.


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## msmitht (Dec 6, 2013)

In all honesty, it doesn't matter. For true self defense you will most likely be wearing shoes which, depending on the shoe, can make it difficult to flex or point your toes. The tounge of the shoe should protect your foot from injury. If you are wearing boots or hard toed shoe's then you want to hit with the tip for the most damage.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 6, 2013)

msmitht said:


> In all honesty, it doesn't matter. For true self defense you will most likely be wearing shoes which, depending on the shoe, can make it difficult to flex or point your toes. The tounge of the shoe should protect your foot from injury. If you are wearing boots or hard toed shoe's then you want to hit with the tip for the most damage.



You hit on a big problem in the martial arts, which is those persons fixated on the "right way" to do something. In reality, different paths can be taken to achieve similar results. Understanding the mechanics of a certain method is important, but it is high time people get over the notion that the way they learned it is "right." Mathematics has a single answer; arts do not.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 6, 2013)

msmitht said:


> An excellent video. Seen it many times. Not the best for referencing how to perform the kick according to kikkiwon standards, but an excellent old school video.



I know it's a typo and it's off topic, but I love it. I'm calling it Kikkiwon from now on. 

On topic, I think this kick is applicable with any of the methods suggested in this thread, and for the purposes of form that looks nice, I find the ball of the foot prettiest when the foot is pointed as in apchagi.

Under application this works as the kick follows a twisting block, so a turned forward kick to the front of the face makes sense at the reduced range. As does a ball of the foot with a turning kick foot flexed to the temple. Or the top of the foot to the softer tissue of the neck. Under application I tend to unbalance with the twisting block grabbing, so the actual direction and nature of the kick is entirely dependent on the reaction from the opponent, which is different every time. 



Gnarlie


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 6, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Can you point to a video of that kick, it does not seem like a very good way to do a side kick to me?



Well, the important thing to remember is that it's not a _side_ kick if you mean side _piercing_ kick. A side thrusting kick has a different attacking tool (ball of the foot vs. the footsword) and different target area (primarily the front of the body). A side piercing kick, on the other hand, is primarily used against targets on the side of the body (temple, armpit, floating ribs, and neck artery), although vital spots on the front of the body can be attacked as secondary targets.

They are two different kicks, not just two different ways to perform a single kick.

Speaking from experience, getting hit with a Side Thrusting Kick can hurt since the force of the kick is focused on a small attacking tool and directed to generally softer target areas.

A good example of the Side Thrusting Kick being executed can be seen in the following video of Joel Denis performing Moon-Moo. The kick is executed twice from 1:22-1:30 (Side Checking Kick to Side Thrusting Kick into a Knife-Hand Strike):






Edit: I have no idea what I'm doing wrong with the video embedding but I can't get it to work so if you want to see the video you'll have to follow the link. Sorry.

Pax,

Chris


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 6, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> A good example of the Side Thrusting Kick being executed can be seen in the following video of Joel Denis performing Moon-Moo. The kick is executed twice from 1:22-1:30


Very crisp - nice!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> You hit on a big problem in the martial arts, which is those persons fixated on the "right way" to do something. In reality, different paths can be taken to achieve similar results. Understanding the mechanics of a certain method is important, but it is high time people get over the notion that the way they learned it is "right." Mathematics has a single answer; arts do not.



So are you seriously suggesting that we tell students 'just toss yur foot out there any ole way'?
This thread is about a very specific move, and in this case there IS a single right answer. Do it the way the governing body wants. If that's not clear (and in this case it's not, since we've seen several different KKW-released videos showing different methods) then do it the way your own instructor wants it done.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 7, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> So are you seriously suggesting that we tell students 'just toss yur foot out there any ole way'?
> This thread is about a very specific move, and in this case there IS a single right answer. Do it the way the governing body wants. If that's not clear (and in this case it's not, since we've seen several different KKW-released videos showing different methods) then do it the way your own instructor wants it done.



Clearly, you did not read what I said. Take another look.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 7, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> You hit on a big problem in the martial arts, which is those persons fixated on the "right way" to do something. In reality, different paths can be taken to achieve similar results. Understanding the mechanics of a certain method is important, but it is high time people get over the notion that the way they learned it is "right." Mathematics has a single answer; arts do not.





Rumy73 said:


> Clearly, you did not read what I said. Take another look.



Actually, I did, or I wouldn't have replied. I've quoted it (again) in case you don't recall what you wrote.

This thread is about a specific move in a specific form. There is most certainly a "right way" to do it. And if we intend to improve, we NEED to be "fixated on the 'right way'" to perform the kick.

If you had some other meaning in mind, perhaps you'd care to explain yourself, because frankly I don't see any other way to interpret your post, in the context of the discussion at hand.


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## BoA36 (Dec 7, 2013)

In Sport Poomsae, per WTF, both types are acceptable in Taeguk 6, however both kicks must be the same.  So you cannot do the first kick with ball of the foot and second with the instep.  This has changed over the last few years as only the ball of the foot was accepted previously.

Bo


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## msmitht (Dec 7, 2013)

I'll say it again: the kick is done with the instep. I just asked a poomsae IR and he confirmed that is the official competition way. Done with this thread.


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 7, 2013)

msmitht said:


> I'll say it again: the kick is done with the instep. I just asked a poomsae IR and he confirmed that is the official competition way. Done with this thread.



The "correct" way to perform techniques for WTF competition don't necessarily line up with the Kukkiwon standard. At this year's FIC this point was made numerous times. The Kukkiwon instructors stressed that if you are competing, you should follow WTF competition standards for poomsae.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 7, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> The "correct" way to perform techniques for WTF competition don't necessarily line up with the Kukkiwon standard.


That's a very interesting point.  I always thought of WTF as sparring competition, and Kukkiwon as the BB organisation.  But when you have a poomsae competition, you are doing KKW forms in a WTF competition.  I hadn't thought of the nuance that the 2 organisations may have different views on the "correct" or "preferred" way for a pattern.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 7, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> The "correct" way to perform techniques for WTF competition don't necessarily line up with the Kukkiwon standard. At this year's FIC this point was made numerous times. The Kukkiwon instructors stressed that if you are competing, you should follow WTF competition standards for poomsae.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk



This is not the first time I've heard this (that the WTF and KKW have different standards for KKW patterns), but I have never seen an answer to why that is. Any idea for the reasoning behind the WTF having different technical standards than the KKW in this area? Since you have to perform the patterns for promotion according to KKW standards I'd think it would be easier just to adopt the KKW standards wholesale. 

Pax,

Chris


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## msmitht (Dec 7, 2013)

REALLY?As I said in previous posts, I have been to 3 FIC including one in Korea at the kkw and have confirmed with a poomsae IR that the instep is the correct striking surface. That is both KKW and WTF confirming the same thing. Just because your instructor, a video or a post said that they teach it right doesn't mean that they were taught current standards. I am right on this one.


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## SJON (Dec 7, 2013)

Ah! An opportunity to save myself some typing by merely manipulating somebody else's post (sorry, Jaeimseu) while neatly summing up my point of view:

_The "correct" way to perform techniques [...] doesn't necessarily line up with the Kukkiwon standard._

I'm still no nearer to understanding the new "ball of foot forward poke" method of round kicking. I think that's the interesting point here, i.e. the trajectory and target, rather than whether the instep or the ball of the foot makes a better striking surface.

I asked earlier, but no harm in insisting: Can anyone supply a video of a Taekkyon round kick?

Cheers,

Simon


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 7, 2013)

This is a link to a couple of examples of Taekkyon roundhouse kicks. In both instances the instep is used. Check 0:24-0:33 and 0:40-0:51 to see the kicks at normal speed and slow motion.






Pax,

Chris


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## SJON (Dec 8, 2013)

Thanks! That's really interesting. Even though contact is with the instep (although the first one is borderline) the trajectory is more similar to the new ball-of-foot-forward variation we've been discussing, i.e. a more frontal, shallower arc than the traditional round kick.

I still think this is an attempt to adapt aspects of Karate-based form technique to closer resemble the sport version.

Then there's this other issue of "if you do Kukki TKD and the KKW says it is now done this way, then this is the correct way to do it, because that's what the KKW says and you do Kukki TKD, etc. etc.". I notice that this happens even when the KKW does not offer a convincing explanation for a change, even when the change seems to reduce the technique's effectiveness. I really don't get this "conform to KKW standards at all costs" thing. Is there a vault in the KKW full of files with embarrassing photos of its international instructors?

I wonder what it would take for people to start questioning this. A new mandate stating that all front punches must be performed with the little finger extended forwards towards the opponent, perhaps?

I would like to make clear that this is categorically *not *a dig at Andy, who takes the trouble to engage in pleasant, well-informed conversation on matters such as this, which is something I very much appreciate.

Best regards,

Simon


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 8, 2013)

I didn't really see that much similarity between the KKW turning kick in Taegeuk 6 and the Taekkyon kick, to be honest. The first example of the Taekkyon kick, however, looked almost identical to the turning kick I first learned in Taekwon-Do, circa 1981. My instructors were under a Chang Moo Kwan master and we chambered and executed the turning kick just like the one found at 0:24-0:33 in the video I posted. While their master was a Chang Moo Kwan member he wasn't involved with the KKW but was an ITF member, although the ITF way of performing a turning kick is somewhat different from how we were taught then.

I will say that the two examples of the kick in the Taekkyon video were performed with different trajectories and I don't know if they are classified as different kicks or if the first one is simply using the quick change in the kick's direction as a feint to lower the opponent's guard.

Pax,

Chris


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## Archtkd (Dec 8, 2013)

msmitht said:


> REALLY?As I said in previous posts, I have been to 3 FIC including one in Korea at the kkw and have confirmed with a poomsae IR that the instep is the correct striking surface. That is both KKW and WTF confirming the same thing. Just because your instructor, a video or a post said that they teach it right doesn't mean that they were taught current standards. I am right on this one.



Sir: I think both ball and instep are being used at elite levels of WTF competition. I wonder what the point deduction would be if a judge favored the instep over the ball - minor .1 or serious error .3? Here are some examples from the world championships: 

Gold Medalist Moon Su Ji Kang of Korea  1st Female Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse with instep, while performing Taegu Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage if competion at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships. I had to stop and replay tape several times to catch the kick:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c18370

Gold Medalist Moon Kwon Park of Korea  2nd Male Senior Division. He kicks roundhouse with ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage of competion at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships: 
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c18370

Gold Medalist Yu Jin Kang of Korea   1st Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse kick with ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the quarter-final stage of competion at the 2008 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships: http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c1739

Gold Medalist Mohammad Taghi Hatami Marbin of Iran - 2nd Senior Mald Division. He kicks roundhouse kick with the ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the quarter-final stage of competition at the 2009 World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c1739


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 8, 2013)

I see a many videos at the links posted, but not the actual videos you are citing.  Can you post a more direct link or advise how to find the videos?


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## andyjeffries (Dec 8, 2013)

SJON said:


> Then there's this other issue of "if you do Kukki TKD and the KKW says it is now done this way, then this is the correct way to do it, because that's what the KKW says and you do Kukki TKD, etc. etc.". I notice that this happens even when the KKW does not offer a convincing explanation for a change, even when the change seems to reduce the technique's effectiveness. I really don't get this "conform to KKW standards at all costs" thing. Is there a vault in the KKW full of files with embarrassing photos of its international instructors?
> 
> I wonder what it would take for people to start questioning this. A new mandate stating that all front punches must be performed with the little finger extended forwards towards the opponent, perhaps?



To be honest Simon, I think you view poomsae differently to 99% of Taekwondoin.  

As I understand it, you look for hidden applications in the poomsae, whereas I understand the creaters of the poomsae have said no such hidden applications were intended.  So while I see what you are doing as an interesting exercise, for me it's not the official position of the Kukkiwon and hence I don't focus on that in my training.  I prefer to get as close to the Kukkiwon view of Taekwondo as I can, otherwise what I am teaching is "Jeffries Taekwondo" rather than "Kukkiwon Taekwondo" and I don't consider myself anywhere near senior enough to decide that what my seniors and grandmasters are doing is wrong and I know better.

I view poomsae as a nice vehicle for improving balance, physical control, health and strength.  It's not a method of training effective techniques to be performed exactly as they are done in the pattern in a self-defence situation. So I view poomsae as a mental exercise in conformance to a specified technical description and giving the other physical benefits above, but if the techniques aren't effective, I'm OK with that.  For example, performing the slow punch to the face in Taegeuk pal-jang - surely punching slowly would never have been intended to be a decent self defence technique?

We do hosinsul, step-sparring, breaking and olympic-style sparring to practice combat techniques.



SJON said:


> I would like to make clear that this is categorically *not *a dig at Andy, who takes the trouble to engage in pleasant, well-informed conversation on matters such as this, which is something I very much appreciate.



No worries, I didn't take it as such (I believe you're a Brit as well, we're pretty thick skinned)


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## Archtkd (Dec 8, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I see a many videos at the links posted, but not the actual videos you are citing.  Can you post a more direct link or advise how to find the videos?



Sorry about that -- Will try again.


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## Archtkd (Dec 8, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I see a many videos at the links posted, but not the actual videos you are citing.  Can you post a more direct link or advise how to find the videos?



Try this: 

Gold Medalist Su Ji Kang of Korea  1st Female Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse with instep (I had to pause and study tape several times to find this), while performing Taegug Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage of competition at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...lCVRhZWd1ZWsgNgABAQEPcDFjMTgzNzBtMTg3OTQ3AAAA


Gold Medalist Moon Kwon Park of Korea  2nd Male Senior Division. He kicks roundhouse with ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage of competion at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships: http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...Ld29uIFBhcmsAAQEBD3AxYzE4MzcwbTE4NjcwNAAAAA==


Gold Medalist Yu Jin Kang of Korea   1st Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse kick with ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the quarter-final stage of competion at the 2008 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships: http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...LWXUgamluIEthbmcAAQEBDXAxYzE3MzltMTYxNzcAAAA=


Gold Medalist Mohammad Taghi Hatami Marbin of Iran - 2nd Senior Mald Division. He kicks roundhouse kick with the ball of the foot, while performing Taeguk Yuk Jang in the quarter-final stage of competition at the 2008 World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...0YW1pIE1hcmJpbmkAAQEBDXAxYzE3MzltMTU5MDQAAAA=


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 9, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Mathematics has a single answer



Not always true.


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## SJON (Dec 9, 2013)

Hi Andy.



andyjeffries said:


> To be honest Simon, I think you view poomsae differently to 99% of Taekwondoin.


No doubt about that.



andyjeffries said:


> As I understand it, you look for hidden applications in the poomsae


Not exactly. "Hidden applications" sounds too mysterious and secretive. I just like to see what happens when I perform the movements at less than arm's length from the opponent and do some things that are a matter of historical record (within TSD/KSD/TKD), such as using blocks to strike, and grabbing with the non-blocking/striking hand. Anyway, pattern application is only about 20% of my syllabus in terms of class time.



andyjeffries said:


> I understand the creaters of the poomsae have said no such hidden applications were intended.


I've heard second hand that Park Hae Man has said this but (a) I don't know if it's true that he said that, and (b) GM Park is hardly going to come out 40 years later and go against the party line, is he?



andyjeffries said:


> So while I see what you are doing as an interesting exercise, for me it's not the official position of the Kukkiwon and hence I don't focus on that in my training.  I prefer to get as close to the Kukkiwon view of Taekwondo as I can, otherwise what I am teaching is "Jeffries Taekwondo" rather than "Kukkiwon Taekwondo"


Sounds fine to me. That's one of several reasons why I don't say I teach Kukki TKD.



andyjeffries said:


> I don't consider myself anywhere near senior enough to decide that what  my seniors and grandmasters are doing is wrong and I know  better.


Not what I'm saying at all. Perish the thought. I think the patterns were probably composed using a particular set of criteria, but were superseded for a variety of reasons by other teaching methods and were therefore assigned a different role. As for "my seniors and grandmasters", call me a rebel and a heretic, but I just don't see myself as part of that kind of hierarchical structure any more than an Apple user considers Steve Jobs his senior or a doctor considers Alexander Fleming his grandmaster.



andyjeffries said:


> I view poomsae as a nice vehicle for improving balance, physical control, health and strength.  It's not a method of training effective techniques to be performed exactly as they are done in the pattern in a self-defence situation. So I view poomsae as a mental exercise in conformance to a specified technical description and giving the other physical benefits above, but if the techniques aren't effective, I'm OK with that.  For example, performing the slow punch to the face in Taegeuk pal-jang - surely punching slowly would never have been intended to be a decent self defence technique?We do hosinsul, step-sparring, breaking and olympic-style sparring to practice combat techniques.


Sounds like a perfectly good method to me. No idea why that particular punch is done slow, other than perhaps to indicate that it is possibly the most dangerous way to punch (for the recipient).



andyjeffries said:


> No worries, I didn't take it as such (I believe you're a Brit as well, we're pretty thick skinned)


I am indeed.

Cheers,

Simon


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 9, 2013)

Archtkd said:


> Try this:
> 
> Gold Medalist Su Ji Kang of Korea  1st Female Senior Female Division. She kicks roundhouse with instep (I had to pause and study tape several times to find this), while performing Taegug Yuk Jang in the preliminary stage of competition at the 2010 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships:
> http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.as...lCVRhZWd1ZWsgNgABAQEPcDFjMTgzNzBtMTg3OTQ3AAAA


Thanks for the links.  I had to look at the frames as well for the video above, although my conclusion is that she is kicking with the ball of the foot, since the toes are pulled back.  It's really hard to say though!


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## WaterGal (Dec 9, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> That's a very interesting point.  I always thought of WTF as sparring competition, and Kukkiwon as the BB organisation.  But when you have a poomsae competition, you are doing KKW forms in a WTF competition.  I hadn't thought of the nuance that the 2 organisations may have different views on the "correct" or "preferred" way for a pattern.



Me neither.  That's very interesting, and something for me to think and learn about as we've got more students interested in competing.


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## Archtkd (Dec 9, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Thanks for the links.  I had to look at the frames as well for the video above, although my conclusion is that she is kicking with the ball of the foot, since the toes are pulled back.  It's really hard to say though!



Can you imagine how hard ii would be for a poomsae judge to decide whether that kick was instep or ball of the foot, while judging live action without the benefit of video playback. If only insteps where acceptable, the judge would have to deduct points for kicking with the ball, or vice versa if only the ball of foot was acceptable. And the question still remains whether that would be considered a minor or major error, as far as point deductions are concerned.


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