# TKD BB "assault" another student following a racist attack



## Ken Morgan (Apr 30, 2009)

I was originally going to put this in the horror story section, but the ending is great with his classmates walking out.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090430.wkeswick30art22312/BNStory/National/home


JOE FRIESEN 
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
April 30, 2009 at 4:21 AM EDT

KESWICK, ONT.  The 15-year-old black belt thought he was doing his tormentor a favour when he elected to fight back with his weaker left hand.
He had heard his white classmate throw an angry racial slur in his direction after an argument during a gym class game of speedball, and now the student was shoving him backward, refusing to retract the smear.
The white student swung first, hitting the 15-year-old with a punch to the mouth


----------



## Joab (Apr 30, 2009)

He shouldn't have hit the student. A push is not a serious attack, and verbal abuse is no excuse for hitting someone. He shouldn't be charged with assault either. He should have reported the incident and let hate crimes laws take their effect. Than again, he is only 15, I did stuff like that when I was 15.


----------



## Jade Tigress (Apr 30, 2009)

Joab said:


> He shouldn't have hit the student. A push is not a serious attack, and verbal abuse is no excuse for hitting someone. He shouldn't be charged with assault either. He should have reported the incident and let hate crimes laws take their effect. Than again, he is only 15, I did stuff like that when I was 15.



I think you missed this:



> The white student swung first, hitting the 15-year-old with a punch to the mouth.


----------



## Drac (Apr 30, 2009)

Its sad that a student can no longer defend himself without winding up in hot water...My Grandson ( 9 ) was suspended once for 2 days for fighting, and he was just defending himself...My Step-Daughter would not allow me to visit the school and champion his cause...Prolly for the best..


----------



## theletch1 (Apr 30, 2009)

Drac said:


> Its sad that a student can no longer defend himself without winding up in hot water...My Grandson ( 9 ) was suspended once for 2 days for fighting, and he was just defending himself...My Step-Daughter would not allow me to visit the school and champion his cause...Prolly for the best..


Don't you just love "zero tolerance"?


----------



## Ken Morgan (Apr 30, 2009)

When my son was younger he would always seem to get into trouble at school, he never started anything but there was always something. Hes not one to back down from anyone or anything. 

After coming out on the wrong side of a couple of fights, I signed him up for boxing lessons, in addition to the gymnastics he was already taking. The school didnt seem to be doing much about the bullies. Funny after two years of boxing, he no longer came out on the wrong side, and no one picked on him anymore.

I told him I didnt mind him getting into trouble for defending himself, provided he never started anything. I had many discussions with school authorities, about how wrong my thought process was. I told them that my son always has the right to defend himself, and if they couldnt stop the bullying, my son would.

In the article I love how 400 of the kids school mates walked out in protest. Obviously they have been bullied too.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Apr 30, 2009)

This is very disappointing to read; however, it speaks very highly of the student population of the school to stand up the way they did. In our desire to protect kids from violence, we forget that emotions boil over, and sometimes people get into fights. I hope the family fights back and gets justice for this boy. 

As someone said above, "He's only fifteen."


----------



## cdunn (Apr 30, 2009)

It's a shame that people abusing the system has forced things like this to happen.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 30, 2009)

Good for the Asian Kid in defending himself, and stopping once he had ended the attackers bad intentions.

I hate the zero tolerance policy but I understand it, if it was not for the zero tolerance policy, I could definitely see how kids could group together to get at others.... for example one attacks another and then all his friends say that he defended himself.

we teach our kids and their parents about Zero Tolerance, we try to make sure they understand what it means, and then let them chose what to tell their kids in regards to self defense while at school in face of the consequences. I think once the parents and kids understand it, and agree on an approach, that they are seldom surprised and upset at the resultant suspensions. I know that when my kids get in school, and with their training, if something ever happens to them and they defend themselves or another and are suspended, I will be taking them to disneyland for a fun filled day. I am more concerned with them making the right choices for the right reasons, then the choices a school may want them to make for general reasons.


----------



## KELLYG (Apr 30, 2009)

The bully got lucky.   If the kid used his right hand he would have been hurt much worse.


----------



## Live True (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm glad to read about the other students rallying, that is a reassuring sign.

I just don't understand why the other student isn't being threatened with explusion as well. If you have a "zero-tolerance" policy (which are stupid from the get go), then why is it not being equally applied. They were both in the fight, and both swung.

Otherwise, I am impressed with the advise the boys father gave him, and I've seen other MA's note about thier children.  Don't start it, but don't let yourself be abused.  I can agree with that.

I hope the "investigation" comes out with a fair bit of justice for all involved.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Apr 30, 2009)

I guess Keswick must be in "Southern" Canada... :uhohh: 

Seriously, that kid and his family are welcome down here in Georgia. Heck, I might even see if he'll give me a lesson or two! 

I say good for him! Where's the common sense in allowing someone to cause you bodily injury? The kid did the right thing busting that bully in his schnoz.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Apr 30, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Good for the Asian Kid in defending himself, and stopping once he had ended the attackers bad intentions.
> 
> I hate the zero tolerance policy but I understand it...


 
Agreed. I don't know if this board has a stated violence 'zero tolerance' policy. My school board, until 11 years ago, consisted of six boards, one of which had a zero tolerance policy, which was highly contoversial. To my knowledge, the only expulsions to emerge from that policy involved weapons. However, realistically, nieghbouring boards were not pleased because it simply meant that a student might be expelled from one board, get on a bus, and go to another.

In this instance, based soley on what is reported, there's no indication that the student had a violent history, nor that he poses a future threat. 

Like I said, the boy's only fifteen. He was under threat and being harassed. There's no justice without mercy.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 30, 2009)

sooooo bullying, racism and assault are ok in that region of Canada but self-defense is not


----------



## Thesemindz (Apr 30, 2009)

Joab said:


> He shouldn't have hit the student. A push is not a serious attack, and verbal abuse is no excuse for hitting someone. He shouldn't be charged with assault either. He should have reported the incident and let hate crimes laws take their effect. Than again, he is only 15, I did stuff like that when I was 15.


 
I disagree. A push is a _very_ serious attack. It is a potentially life threatening initiation of violence agaainst another human being. You can be pushed down stairs, into walls, or as a set up for follow up striking. Pushes _can_ be deadly serious.

As to the rest of it, I was attacked once in high school. I was getting kicked, I pushed the other guy away, he punched me in the nose, and we both got suspended. That's the way they address violence in schools. It isn't fair, it isn't rational. It's knee jerk and thoughtless and requires as little as possible from the administrators.


-Rob


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 30, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> As to the rest of it, I was attacked once in high school. I was getting kicked, I pushed the other guy away, he punched me in the nose, and we both got suspended. That's the way they address violence in schools. It isn't fair, it isn't rational. It's knee jerk and thoughtless and requires as little as possible from the administrators.
> 
> 
> -Rob


 
 While I agree that it requires as little as possible from the administrators, I also think that until there is 24/7 video and voice surveillance in schools that anything else has the ability to be abused by the students.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Apr 30, 2009)

Zero Tolerence policy is absolutely ridiculous, ineffective, and illogical. Not to mention that such policies often attempt to take away one our most very basic of rights; the right to self preservation. 

How absolutely ludicrous is it to ask of a person to stand by idly while they are being physically attacked. The only thing more outrageous than that is the fact that you have to explain this to some people!


----------



## Omar B (Apr 30, 2009)

Any unwanted contact is an assault, a push is just as grievous as a punch in my eyes.  You are not my gf, mom, sister or dad,you don't need to be touching me.

As for the kid, he's completely justified, they are just angry their little racist got his butt kicked by his "victim."  I commend the kid and his father for teaching him self control.


----------



## morph4me (Apr 30, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Zero Tolerence policy is absolutely ridiculous, ineffective, and illogical. Not to mention that such policies often attempt to take away one our most very basic of rights; the right to self preservation.
> 
> How absolutely ludicrous is it to ask of a person to stand by idly while they are being physically attacked. The only thing more outrageous than that is the fact that you have to explain this to some people!


 
I couldn't agree more, zero tolerance makes absolutely no sense and when my kids were in school I told them, in the presense of their teachers, that they had the right and obligation to defend themselves if necessary, and I would deal with the administration, but if the ever started a fight, the were going to regret it for a very long time, and wouldn't be able to sit down without a cushion.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Apr 30, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Any unwanted contact is an assault, a push is just as grievous as a punch in my eyes. You are not my gf, mom, sister or dad,you don't need to be touching me.
> 
> As for the kid, he's completely justified, they are just angry their little racist got his butt kicked by his "victim." I commend the kid and his father for teaching him self control.


 
Excellent point! His dad deserves a pat on the back too. 

The way "assault" is defined varies depending on where you live. For instance, in Georgia an "assault" can be an attempt to make contact and/or include threats. In essence, if you verbally threaten me I am within my right to defend myself. Reminds of an old Irish saying..."_Often a mans mouth broke his nose." _lol

I reccomend that all martial artist educate themselves on their local laws and statutes. Not just criminal, but civil as well. Whereas I might get away without having any criminal charges pressed against me for smacking a smart alec in the nose in GA, that doesn't mean he can't sue me for the damages in civil court...he can.


----------



## myusername (Apr 30, 2009)

Unfortunately schools are very rarely in to punishing the person who started a fight they always go for the person who finishes it. I hope things work out well for this kid.


----------



## Omar B (Apr 30, 2009)

As a kid I moved around a lot (4 high schools) and I was always the new guy.  Let me tell you, I've run in to similar situations many times.  I feel sorry for the kid because I've been in the situation where you defend yourself but it's still your fault rather than that of the guy who's been there 4 years ... since I just started yesterday!


----------



## Ken Morgan (Apr 30, 2009)

Keswick isnt even back woods, its got 21 000 people and serves mainly as a bedroom community for Toronto. You can be in downtown Toronto in less then an hour from Keswick.

A little background, though it by no means justifies anything. For the past few years there have been many instances of van loads of Chinese from Toronto travelling around to areas like Keswick and fishing the place out, taking anything and everything they catch. This has created much animosity, including sinking of boats, vandalism of vehicles, and theft of fishing equipment by locals. Charges have been laid against some locals and I believe some of the Chinese have been fined by the Ministry of Natural Resources. 

Regardless, the guy in question is just a bully; Id be surprised if the Korean victim was the first target for the guy.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 30, 2009)

myusername said:


> Unfortunately schools are very rarely in to punishing the person who started a fight they always go for the person who finishes it.


 
True

Back in the 70s when I was in high school the guy that harrassed me for weeks and finally brought his friends over and got in my face and swung (first) at me a couple of times and missed got nothing, nor did his friends. But I didn't miss and got a week detention and a threat of suspension.


----------



## Guardian (Apr 30, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> sooooo bullying, racism and assault are ok in that region of Canada but self-defense is not


 

Exactly, that's the message they are sending, don't defend yourself, get your butt whooped and hope the police will do something, fat chance, it's no different their then here, it would have just continued.  Good for him and the students who walked out for him.


----------



## Thesemindz (Apr 30, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Zero Tolerence policy is absolutely ridiculous, ineffective, and illogical. Not to mention that such policies often attempt to take away one our most very basic of rights; the right to self preservation.
> 
> How absolutely ludicrous is it to ask of a person to stand by idly while they are being physically attacked. The only thing more outrageous than that is the fact that you have to explain this to some people!


 
When I was suspended for getting punched in the nose, my parents were told that the only way I could have avoided getting suspended was to, and I'm paraphrasing here, say nothing to invite an attack upon my person and to curl up in a ball on the floor and make no move to defend myself while I was pummeled repeatedly until the attacker gave up and walked away.

Which of course assumes that the attacker will stop attacking you purely on his own initiative. 

As a paranoid anarchist, I _might_ think that this is an attempt to convince our citizens at a young impressionable age that they have no right to self reliance, but rather it is their responsibility to consent to violent assault upon themselves and their liberties and that the state and its authorities are the only ones empowered to act in their defense.

But that would be crazy. So let's just assume that this is an attempt at avoiding any accusation of playing favorites, and that the school is simply concerned about liability, which is why they just suspend everyone involved.


-Rob


----------



## Omar B (Apr 30, 2009)

What, are we trying to raise a society of wusses?  Defending yourself will get you in trouble?  Does that not go contrary to everything your rational mind tell you ... if there's any of it left after years of indoctrination.  Follow the crowd, don't make waves, keep your head down, always obey.  I respect that kid, it's the men who stand up for themselves and for rationality that make this world livable, not the bullies or the mealy mouthed apologist who talks about what the aggressor's problems at home are that makes him act out.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Apr 30, 2009)

Omar B said:


> What, are we trying to raise a society of wusses?  Defending yourself will get you in trouble?  Does that not go contrary to everything your rational mind tell you ... if there's any of it left after years of indoctrination.  Follow the crowd, don't make waves, keep your head down, always obey.  I respect that kid, it's the men who stand up for themselves and for rationality that make this world livable, not the bullies or the mealy mouthed apologist who talks about what the aggressor's problems at home are that makes him act out.



Omar,

I'll go even further than that, beyond the right to self-defense. This is a kid who was in a horrible spot. Even if there was a chance that he could have walked away from this without fighting, can there not be some understanding that he was being abused and confronted, and he responded? In addition to respecting s/d, can we not also accept that sometimes people have had enough and that from time to time a physical response is a natural consequence of how they're being treated?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Apr 30, 2009)

In the 80's, I was doing security / bouncing work at this place that saw lots of action. (* i.e. conflict or fights *). 

I tried to make it safe for everyone no matter their sex or race. 

It was known as a hang out for everyone or anyone. 

The state passed a law that a simple assault or assault and battery with a racial slur automatically became a felony. 

So one night three young men, assaulted me verbally and with posturing. Then they made the racial slur and attacked me physically. I defended myself. The police show, and as they had the worse of the exchange. (* For some reason fighting multiple opponents always made me scared, and my body reacted accordingly, unfortunately for some of the bad guys sometimes. *) The police wanted to arrest me. I said no problem and asked if they would arrest the three as well. I explained the comments they made and that witnesses had heard it. Some follow up questions by the officers and the bad guys had not denied the comments and were proud of them. They took them away in cuffs on felony charges and left me as mine at best was a misdemeanor and most likely self-defense. 


Racism in any form should not be tolerated.


----------



## Nomad (May 1, 2009)

Omar B said:


> What, are we trying to raise a society of wusses?


 
IMO, these policies don't just create a society of wusses, but also a society of *victims*.

I'm with most of you on this one; anything my daughters do in self-defense has my full backing, and you'd better believe the school board would be hearing A LOT from me (and my lawyer) if a similar situation happened involving them.


----------



## Bruno@MT (May 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> He shouldn't have hit the student. A push is not a serious attack, and verbal abuse is no excuse for hitting someone. He shouldn't be charged with assault either. He should have reported the incident and let hate crimes laws take their effect. Than again, he is only 15, I did stuff like that when I was 15.



The problem is that giving in every time just feeds the abuse. And if it goes on long enough, it becomes normal and accepted.
The fact that the other student did what he did proves that there is an undercurrent of racist thinking in his environment. Racism does not come out of the blue in kids.

My daughter gets taught that people are people, whether they are different from us or not. Gay, colored, or physically or mentally challenged... Everybody deserves respect. And so far, my daughter seems to absorb our message. And it would be a bad day for her if I found out otherwise.

Likewise, if I were to teach my daughter the wrong things, she'd be a bullying racist in no time. Look at Udai and Kusai Hussein. They were innocent babies once, too.

So if my daughter is bullied, and feels threatened enough to strike back, then she will have my unwavering support, even if her response would be considered over the top for that specific instance.


----------



## Ronin74 (May 2, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Any unwanted contact is an assault, a push is just as grievous as a punch in my eyes. You are not my gf, mom, sister or dad,you don't need to be touching me.
> 
> As for the kid, he's completely justified, they are just angry their little racist got his butt kicked by his "victim." I commend the kid and his father for teaching him self control.


I don't think it could've been said any clearer.

I'm sure it differs from person to person, but if you don't know a person, they have no business putting their hands on you in any offensive way. I'll take it even a step further and say that if someone's even "pretending" to take a swing at another person- assuming these people don't really know each other that well- then it's not the victim's fault for reacting the way they're trained.



Omar B said:


> What, are we trying to raise a society of wusses? Defending yourself will get you in trouble?


Sadly, I think it's happening, slowly but surely. What's worse is seeing where holding it all in gets redirected at.


----------



## Omar B (May 2, 2009)

Dude, if you don't know the person they don't need to be touching you at all, period.  Simple as that, but then I'm the guy who has long hair because he even hates barbers touching him.


----------



## Ken Morgan (May 2, 2009)

Updated story
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090501.wkeswick0501/BNStory/National/home

JOE FRIESEN 
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
May 1, 2009 at 10:12 PM EDT

KESWICK, ONT.  The 15-year-old Korean boy sat quietly in the car Friday morning as his classmates streamed past the window, waving and saying hello.
The students were making their way to school in this small Ontario town, but the boy was travelling in the opposite direction. He was going to his first day at a program for suspended students.
As he watched the scene unfold, the 15-year-old's father was heartbroken. It was really sad. He just wanted to go to school, he said.


----------



## Bruno@MT (May 3, 2009)

> On Friday afternoon, spokesman Ross Virgo said the board meant to retract that letter, that it was sent in error and that its contents were no longer valid. He said the case is being investigated further, and that the recommendation of expulsion is no longer in effect.



Translation:
_The letter was already in the internal mail system before this became real news, and people found out that we are snivelling cowards who initially did not even want to look into the racism angle.
Now, people have found out that we are self serving bastards who couldn't care less about the Asian people, and this has exploded in our face.
Oops. We didn't expect people to notice._



> &#8220;I told them I was sorry about the incident and I wanted to make sure they that they understood they're not only welcome in this community, but they are already part of this community,&#8221; Mr. Grossi said.



Translation:
_Damn, I can sure as hell miss being yelled at by the electorate. And now I have to deal with this, thanks to the no-good school administration._


----------



## Archangel M (May 3, 2009)

The "push equals a punch" thing just isnt true according to most state laws. What matters is the totality of the circumstance and if physical or serious physical injury is imminent. Hospitalizing someone because he pushed you will land you in trouble. Just as killing someone because he punched you will. 

Of course thats neither here nor there according to this particular story. Schoolyard fights have become way overblown in this age of Columbine.....


----------



## MBuzzy (May 3, 2009)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090501.wkeswick0501/BNStory/National/home



> The 15-year-old was suspended for four weeks from Keswick High School over a fight that he says began when another student racially abused him and punched him in the mouth. The boy, who has a black belt in tae kwon do, fought back with a single punch that broke his antagonist's nose.



This is ridiculous....I'm amazed that the schools system allows this.  The other student made a racist insult, then punched the other boy....and the victim is punished for his single, provoked punch.  Granted, he could have walked away, he may have been able to divert the initial punch and defend himself (as a BB, he probably should have seen it coming and blocked, but anyone can get caught off guard).  Either way, at the minimum, the instigating student should have been immediately expelled.


----------



## terryl965 (May 3, 2009)

It is the system it sucks plain and simple, me and my wife both teach and you see kids protecting themself and getting into trouble. This is why we should never have had these law makers making such idiotic laws about SD.


----------



## shesulsa (May 3, 2009)

Another thread on this.


----------



## Cryozombie (May 3, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> The "push equals a punch" thing just isnt true according to most state laws. What matters is the totality of the circumstance and if physical or serious physical injury is imminent.


 
Cmon Arc, you know that what REALLY matters is how well your lawyer articulates whatever it is you are trying to get across in court.  The right spin and that push is attempted murder...


----------



## Big Don (May 3, 2009)

The "beauty" of Zero Tolerance.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (May 3, 2009)

theletch1 said:


> Don't you just love "zero tolerance"?


 
"Zero Intelligence" would be a bit closer to truth in advertising I think......


----------



## jarrod (May 3, 2009)

think about it; why wouldn't the federal education system start conditioning children to be compliant & never fight back?  i don't want to get all conspiracy-theory sounding, but we're being bred into sheep.

jf


----------



## terryl965 (May 3, 2009)

jarrod said:


> think about it; why wouldn't the federal education system start conditioning children to be compliant & never fight back? i don't want to get all conspiracy-theory sounding, but we're being bred into sheep.
> 
> jf


 

The exact same thing and remember once they train us we can become Zombies and do everything for them.


----------

