# Merged Threads: Ashidori/Foot trapping



## Don Roley (May 20, 2005)

I was just wondering about the state of this technique in the Bujinkan outside of Japan.

I was working out with a friend who lives in America a while back and noticed that he was not stepping on my foot as often as I am used to. Not too long ago I worked out with a vistor and he had to go searching for my ankle to hook it like the teacher showed.

I seem to think that my instructor in America also taught it a great deal. But I realize that most of what I do is not totally under Japanese influence and not him. So maybe I got into the habit while I was here.

In the dojo I go to, the teacher stesses covering the guy with at least three items. One of them is usually an ashidori technique. You go to do _omote gyaku_, you step on the foot. You enter for _ganseki- nage_ and you hook the foot, etc. But as I think about it, there may not be that many people outside of Japan doing it. 

So.......do you and how much emphisis?


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## Neil-o-Mac (May 20, 2005)

My instructor does that a fair old bit - standing on the uke's foot, using his knee to help in unsettling the uke's balance etc.  I tend to do it more by accident though.


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## Don Roley (May 20, 2005)

Accident???? Maybe it is just a habit you have built into yourself so well that you no longer need to think about it.

Welcome to martialtalk. I hope you enjoy the experience.


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## Mountain Kusa (May 20, 2005)

This is weird, a woo woo moment for me.

Weds Night I was training with one of my 9th kyus and he asked me how to learn to step on the ukes foot all the time. To find where his mind was, I asked him why? He replied that I do it all the time and wanted to know how To learn it. I told him in the early days of my training It was something I had to think about, I would need to watch, try to place my foot on the Ukes foot, ( I mostly missed ) and thought about it too much. As I reflected back on those days I had recalled I had asked the same question of one of the BBs back then. I was told if one practices it enough it will become second nature, but that I would need to quit thinking about it for it to really begin to work. Now I do it all the time and dont think about it. He was a good teacher. He explained to me how I would get there but placed the responsibility of learning it in my court so I would search and find for myself. I did the same with this young man, he is an exceptional student even at 14.

I have since as Don has stated taken three points to allow techniques to work (sanshin) I do this in the person to person practice of the sanshin as well as the practice of the Kihon, and it works throughout anything else I have found in my taijutsu. I think if one is aware that it is there and trains well, it becomes a natural progression. What I have found is most fun is getting several techniques on at once to see the confusion on the ukes face as to where they are going, how to ukemi out of it, and haveing a genuine "oh crap" moment which to me is when I have captured the mind and have them frozen with indecision. My .02$ worth.


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## rutherford (May 20, 2005)

I can't imagine going without it - we train with this as an essential part of controlling uke and tori had better watch out for it as well.  If the excercise calls for a single punch, for example, uke will at the very least throw the punch as well as try to step on a foot.  

However, I haven't heard the Japanese term before.  The definition I found was leg catch (in a manner of walking).  Does it encompass all areas of walking in to capture the leg?


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## Dale Seago (May 20, 2005)

We do it constantly. It's so much a part of everything that -- I mean this literally -- I and my wife can't even hug each other without finding ourselves instinctively doing it.


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## davidg553 (May 20, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Accident???? Maybe it is just a habit you have built into yourself so well that you no longer need to think about it.
> 
> Welcome to martialtalk. I hope you enjoy the experience.


 I'd wouldn't call it an accident when I do it, its more that it looks accidental


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 20, 2005)

Happens all the time, even when I don't think about doing it.

BTW, I've met and trained with Uncle Bill de Thouars once. He did it all the time as well.


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## Shizen Shigoku (May 20, 2005)

I am quite fond of it.

*Don Roley: "Accident???? Maybe it is just a habit you have built into yourself so well that you no longer need to think about it."*

Well, maybe in Neil's case, it is an accident (9th kyu?)  It's definitely a habit for me though. I've finally gotten to that stage with that particular technique. I would have to try really hard not to do it! - Even AA (ashidoriholics annonymous) couldn't get me to quit using it.

*Mountain Kusa: "...I was training with one of my 9th kyus and he asked me how to learn to step on the ukes foot all the time. ...I do it all the time and wanted to know how To learn it. *

*I told him in the early days of my training It was something I had to think about, I would need to watch, try to place my foot on the Ukes foot, ( I mostly missed ) and thought about it too much. *

*As I reflected back on those days I had recalled I had asked the same question of one of the BBs back then. I was told if one practices it enough it will become second nature, but that I would need to quit thinking about it for it to really begin to work. Now I do it all the time and dont think about it.* "

Exact same experience for me. I asked my sensei/sempai how they were able to trap my feet everytime without even trying, and they said after a while it just sort of happens on its own. Now I have younger students asking me how I do it everytime (especially now that I've gotten so light with it, they don't notice it until they start to fall [down ego! down! :whip: ]) and I have to tell them the same thing. 

[Now that I think about it, I find myself using the same answer to every MA-related question: "Just train. Just train a long time, and maybe you'll get it."]


*"What I have found is most fun is getting several techniques on at once to see the confusion on the ukes face as to where they are going, how to ukemi out of it, and haveing a genuine "oh crap" moment ..."*

Yeah, that is a lot of fun, isn't it - both giving and receiving (q.v. my avatar - that's me getting disintegrated by my sensei - and no, I could not find ukemi out of it)!

*rutherford: "..., I haven't heard the Japanese term before. The definition I found was leg catch (in a manner of walking). Does it encompass all areas of walking in to capture the leg?"*

That is my definition. I know where you got it - I'm the one that submitted that particular glossary. It is a bit flawed, as most of the definitions are 'best-guesses.'

I've always used _ashidori_ to refer to the action of buckling uke's knee with my knee while using a little ankle-to-ankle contact.

I'm curious too as to whether that is a correct usage, and if not, what is the name of that technique, and is "ashidori" applicable to any technique that involves 'leg-catching.' ??

*Dale Seago: "I and my wife can't even hug each other without finding ourselves instinctively doing it."*

Haha! Yeah, my lady friends hate when I do that. I can't seem to hug anybody without getting a little _kuzushi_ in. :lol:


So, I'm not sure what the overall prevalence is of it in America, but here in Florida, everyone has bruised toenails!


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## althaur (May 21, 2005)

I do it quite a bit also, thanks to Dale.  I had a habit of doing it before coming to the Bujinkan though.  It just helped me figure out how to use it in a more proficient manner.  Works really well in combat boots and battle-rattle.  I swear, you almost most here the creak of a tree starting to fall as they go down.  I almost want to yell "TIMBER"!


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## Shogun (May 22, 2005)

most of the training i've done, stepping on the foot happens so often. just about every technique thats its possible to do so. Tai hodoki and omote gyaku pop up in my mind as techniques that I really got to do some foot steppin.


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## Mickey Mullins (May 23, 2005)

Don,

First of all IMHO ashidori waza isn't something tori/uke should be aspiring to do,I believe people focus on this as a technique when it isn't.What I mean is that it is simply something that happens naturally through the transition of kamae.For instance I know that Hatsumi Sensei has placed a great deal of emphasis on raising the toes naturally as you walk(whether it be forward ,backward ,or sideways.).For beginners the Sensei should stress KAMAE,DISTANCE.and TIMING.The rest will fall into place.

Shizen Shigoku wrote:


> Well, maybe in Neil's case, it is an accident (9th kyu?)  It's definitely a habit for me though. I've finally gotten to that stage with that particular technique. I would have to try really hard not to do it! - Even AA (ashidoriholics annonymous) couldn't get me to quit using it.


9th kyu or 10th dan it doesn't matter so long as you are practicing what I had mentioned before.

FWIW,
Mickey Mullins


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## Tengu6 (May 23, 2005)

I think it will happen when you realize that you are always moving in Kamae........if you have good Kamae and understand proper and realistic distancing, it will happen.


Markk Bush


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## Mickey Mullins (May 24, 2005)

Mark,

I agree.Once again waza like this shouldn't be something that you isolate and train as it is only a small part of something greater(hence,more important).In my opinion if you focus on this it WILL build horrendous habits.I believe everyone who "gets it" has a hard time explaining exactly how it was they "got it "because it's so simple.Now the answer everyone hates to hear"It takes time."It is the same with something like jodan uke if you are just hitting your uke's arm you are missing the most important point.
Mickey Mullins


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## Don Roley (May 25, 2005)

Mickey Mullins said:
			
		

> IMHO ashidori waza isn't something tori/uke should be aspiring to do,I believe people focus on this as a technique when it isn't.What I mean is that it is simply something that happens naturally through the transition of kamae.



Which is pretty much the case for all taijutsu. You have echoed the case that I and others made in another forum on this subject.

http://www.paxbaculum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1930

However, how to get to that effortless accomplishment is the question.

I have an advantage over most. I play the teacher from hell at my schools. I pretend to not speak Japanese at my junior high school and make the students do their best in English rather than respond to anything they say in Japanese. I push them out of the way, growl and act like an ogre. They love me for the charecter I play. You think I am like this only on the internet?

Part of this is that I will sometimes step on student's toes _lightly_ while talking to them. I don't look down or make my intentions known before I do it. I do it while talking to them and looking them in the face. The expression they get is priceless. No pain, but there is a little surprise followed by "how they hell am I going to tell _jigoku no sensei_ that his foot is on top of mine?"

They come up with some interesting ways of communicating without using Japanese.

Also, in class I will hook my foot around desks and such as if I was attacking the leg to collapse it. Again, I don't let anything above the waist give me away. Most students don't notice. It is just practice I can do a few times a day in the course of my duties.


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## Mickey Mullins (May 25, 2005)

Don,

I agree completely.The most important lessons are learned thru self study.I believe "techniques" simply to be the vehicle by which you learn the true value.
This reminds me of the story of Bud Malmstrom saying that the KH wouldn't work unless something was added or subtracted from it.Everyone should know that the truth isn't in the TECHNIQUES of the KH but the execution of kamae and Taisabaki.It is true that if a man can carry himself correctly and justly there is never a need for any technique.IMHO everyone gets too caught up in trying to figure out what makes something work,when they've known all along.We should 
take the blinders off.

Don wrote:


> However, how to get to that effortless accomplishment is the question.


You've already told us though haven't you?By not allowing ourselves to get caught up in "fighting or a%% kicking mode" and making the principle movements a part of everything we do in everyday life.As I had mentioned about walking and raising the toes it should become the way you walk everywhere(walk correctly,if you dont know how ask a Shidoshi(and pray he/she knows how as some don't:O)).If you have children play a game of no hands soccar in the yard with them.Have them play dodgeball with you.If you don't have children get the co-workers or family to come to a barbeque and talk them into playing these games.Get off the computer and take a walk with your wife or dog/s,or your wife's dogs.It truly has been in our face since 1986 and we still think it is about the technique.If we give up on "fighting" and concentrate first on learning to move gracefully then fighting will come easier. 



> It is just practice I can do a few times a day in the course of my duties.


I concur.

Mickey Mullins


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## Dale Seago (May 26, 2005)

Mickey, in light of your comments you might enjoy a post I just put up elsewhere: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=514500#post514500

Oh, and someone over there was questioning whether Don Roley actually lives in Japan (I don't know why that keeps coming up, but it does), so this one is for Don: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=513301#post513301


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## Don Roley (May 26, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> However, I haven't heard the Japanese term before.  The definition I found was leg catch (in a manner of walking).  Does it encompass all areas of walking in to capture the leg?



I double checked before responding- since once things like this get on the internet it is too late to recall it and I don't wnat bad information being spread.

Your definition is pretty on. Ashi means both foot and leg in Japanese. Anything that catches the leg or foot can be called ashidori. Hooking the ankle or stepping on the toe is ashidori.

Dale- great, you given Kizaru another signature to use.
 How long do you think it will be before your last sentence makes its appearance on every post by him here?


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## Mickey Mullins (May 26, 2005)

Dale,

This is exactly what I'm talking about,isn't this what Hatsumi Sensei has been DOING all along?He doesn't go ravage he smiles as he sends his uke to jigoku,effortlessly.People should definately go back and reread everything the gentleman has wrote about walking and ukemi.I enjoyed your post immensly.

As for Don Roley---"What!HE LIVES IN JAPAN?"
Mickey Mullins


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## Flatlander (Dec 6, 2005)

Hi there,

Is foot trapping taught in Ninjutsu?  If so, what methods of training are used to develop the skill?


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## rutherford (Dec 6, 2005)

Short answer: Yes, it's very important.  I've mostly seen it done as part of every training experience so that there's always some component of foot trapping in play and perhaps the instructor will comment on it and perhaps not.  I have seen few drills which isolate foot trapping, like you would find in Silat's lower art drills.

A recent thread on this topic: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24332


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## Cryozombie (Dec 6, 2005)

Yeah, Personally, I dont really work on foot traping.

I just try and work on being in the right place so the foot is trapped.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 6, 2005)

Definately yes, as soon as students start out and begin training
foot trapping is generally emphasized. However it is emphasized 
more and more once a student is starting to understand and 
able to control the distance better. Taijutsu has multiple ways
of locking the foot from simply stepping on the foot to locking the
lower leg up from in front, side and behind. Budo Taijutsu is an 
excellent source for foot trapping and locking skills and reminds me
alot of the Arnis and Silat skills in that area. Good Question!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 6, 2005)

A simple example could be: That while your opponent punches
at you with a lunging punch you angle off to the outside (of the punch) on a 45 Degree line and backfist the opponents punch while stepping on their foot. From their you can finish to a joint lock, takedown, etc. Having stepped on the foot it helps you in knowing where the opponents lower limbs are and also in keeping that foot there while you transition. That is a really basic example but very effective when done by a good practitioner.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 6, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Hi there,
> 
> Is foot trapping taught in Ninjutsu?


 
No, but in taijutsu.:asian: 

/Scourge Of The Windmills


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## rutherford (Dec 6, 2005)

Any chance of getting the threads merged?


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## Cryozombie (Dec 6, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Any chance of getting the threads merged?


 
Yeah... I suppose I COULD merge them.


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## Kreth (Dec 7, 2005)

I think of the unconscious use of ashidori as an important milestone in training. I remember realizing at one point that I no longer had to think about trapping uke's foot/leg. It just seemed to happen.
It also makes for some amusing moments, particularly when someone is performing a kata with me as uke, and I inadvertently trap them.
"Oh, sorry," <picks up foot> "Go ahead."


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