# Jr. Black Belt Test



## MJS

I came across this clip elsewhere and wanted to post here for discussion. I will say that when I saw it, I was shaking my head at what I was watching. And then people wonder why others talk so much about McDojos and bash the art the way that they do. 

[yt]C84mKlxBYx0[/yt]


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## KempoGuy06

all i know to do is shake my head

B


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## terryl965

was this a joke or for real.


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## MJS

terryl965 said:


> was this a joke or for real.


 
I believe this is real.


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## KempoGuy06

this is a sad sad day

B


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## SL4Drew

Actually the boy was better than some adults I've seen test for red stripes...seriously. He could have had more intensity. But add that and he'd shame many adults--unfortunately.

In a commercial environment you have to cater to kids. And you have to reward them with a 'black belt' at the end of their curriculum otherwise they wouldn't come. I think that it is important to structure you program so that 1) the pre-teen understands that he won't be able to take on an adult with a serious intent to harm or capture; 2) that the kids' black belt be treated differently; and 3) the program be age appropriate. For example, wearing a black belt with a white stripe; permitting them to only wear the white uniform; prohibit them from wearing it after a certain age; and so forth. Karate-Do (Shotokan) began more or less as a kids program. 

So I think you can hold kids to high but age appropriate standards. And that includes acknowledging their hard work with a 'black belt.' Doc had a killer kid's program for a while, from which David Oda came. I wish when I was a kid I had been in a program like Doc's. The kids' program in the video could probably be better, but it doesn't appear to be as terrible as some I've seen. I think it stacks up favorably to most TKD _and_ Kenpo schools.

I'd also add I have yet to meet someone who got a black belt as a kid an stopping training that took that rank all that serious.


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## KempoGuy06

SL4Drew said:


> Actually the boy was better than some adults I've seen test for red stripes...seriously. He could have had more intensity. But add that and he'd shame many adults--unfortunately.
> 
> In a commercial environment you have to cater to kids. And you have to reward them with a 'black belt' at the end of their curriculum otherwise they wouldn't come. I think that it is important to structure you program so that 1) the pre-teen understands that he won't be able to take on an adult with a serious intent to harm or capture; 2) that the kids' black belt be treated differently; and 3) the program be age appropriate. For example, wearing a black belt with a white stripe; permitting them to only wear the white uniform; prohibit them from wearing it after a certain age; and so forth. Karate-Do (Shotokan) began more or less as a kids program.
> 
> So I think you can hold kids to high but age appropriate standards. And that includes acknowledging their hard work with a 'black belt.' Doc had a killer kid's program for a while, from which David Oda came. I wish when I was a kid I had been in a program like Doc's. The kids' program in the video could probably be better, but it doesn't appear to be as terrible as some I've seen. I think it stacks up favorably to most TKD _and_ Kenpo schools.
> 
> I'd also add I have yet to meet someone who got a black belt as a kid an stopping training that took that rank all that serious.


i dont not agree, in no way should you *have* to give a kid a black belt. Tell them up front, as I would do, that they will not receive until the age of 18 (which I feel is the right age) or unless they demonstrate the maturity level to handle the responsibilities of the rank. Once they attain that rank they need to also understand that in the eyes of the instructor and the people at the dojo they are an adult and from then on will be treated like an adult. 

sorry my .02

B


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## SL4Drew

KempoGuy06 said:


> i dont not agree, in no way should you *have* to give a kid a black belt. Tell them up front, as I would do, that they will not receive until the age of 18 (which I feel is the right age) or unless they demonstrate the maturity level to handle the responsibilities of the rank. Once they attain that rank they need to also understand that in the eyes of the instructor and the people at the dojo they are an adult and from then on will be treated like an adult.
> 
> sorry my .02
> 
> B


 
Not that I disagree with you, but if you are trying to run a commercial school without awarding some kind of black belt, you won't have a kids program (and probably a school) very long.

I'd also add with my experience with Boy Scouts, I believe you could reasonably set an age limit lower than 18 for at least some kids.


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## LuckyKBoxer

I think this is horrible personally.
The other clips from this same school for tests up to and including 4th Black are there as well, and none get any better then this.
The school is under Rick Fowler from what I have been told, and several people in other places were completely surprised by the lack of quality considering where it comes from, but everyone has agreed that it is a complete lack of Quality.

I think these clips are a perfect example of someone letting their need for an income overcome the ability to demand excellence. 

I have to put this under poor business practices on the school owner, who obviously has no shame in deluding their students into believing they are getting something valuable, and effective.

I also have to blame the parents who obviously have chosen to remain ignorant on the subject of martial arts, and quality movement in general. 

I imagine by looking at these clips that money being spent on lessons is buying stuff like confidence, social skills, fun, etc., which in and of themselves are all good, but I do not understand why they can not be combined with good instruction, strong basics, and a quality curriculum where students are held accountable for their abilities.
​


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## KempoGuy06

SL4Drew said:


> Not that I disagree with you, but if you are trying to run a commercial school without awarding some kind of black belt, you won't have a kids program (and probably a school) very long.
> 
> I'd also add with my experience with Boy Scouts, I believe you could reasonably set an age limit lower than 18 for at least some kids.


what do you mean by commercial? Many school under on banner or just one school? 

And Im not saying I wont have a black belt at all im just saying that I wont have 10 year olds running around with BB around their waist. 

B


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## Mark L

SL4Drew said:


> Not that I disagree with you, but if you are trying to run a commercial school without awarding some kind of black belt, you won't have a kids program (and probably a school) very long.
> 
> I'd also add with my experience with Boy Scouts, I believe you could reasonably set an age limit lower than 18 for at least some kids.


Blanket statements like these are troublesome, and often wrong.  The school I'm at has been in existence for 20 years, is the sole source of income for the owners' family, and has a thriving kids program (my sons have been there for 8 years), no Jr. Black Belts.  Commercial success can be had even if you don't "sell" crap.  The BB test is essentially the same ordeal for everyone, it's the best way to maintain the standard.  BB eligibility begins at 16. Most that test do so as high school seniors (if they've put in the years), and they are quite formidable by then.

That video was pathetic, but I guess Mom's check cleared ...


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## JTKenpo

I'm not going to comment on the clip.  What I am going to comment on is the number of people who pass judgement on others but never let their skills or lack there of be put out there for people to see.  So many times I hear keyboard warriors cut people up for their lack of skill only to meet them at some seminar some years down the line, work with them and wonder to myself what they have been complaining about because they move no better then those they judge.  How do we judge success by our accomplishments or by diminishing others.


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## SL4Drew

Mark L said:


> Blanket statements like these are troublesome, and often wrong. The school I'm at has been in existence for 20 years, is the sole source of income for the owners' family, and has a thriving kids program (my sons have been there for 8 years), no Jr. Black Belts. Commercial success can be had even if you don't "sell" crap. The BB test is essentially the same ordeal for everyone, it's the best way to maintain the standard. BB eligibility begins at 16. Most that test do so as high school seniors (if they've put in the years), and they are quite formidable by then.
> 
> That video was pathetic, but I guess Mom's check cleared ...


 
It's easy for people that have had no experience working with kids to shoot down what they are doing. How about we first take on the mountain of adults doing crap, instead of mugging little Johnny who has no reason to know any better? 

The real problem are the instructors and their programs. I can't hardly fault a kid that wants to learn martial arts, any more than a kid that wants to shot a BB gun, go camping, or play football. I'll repeat what I said now for the third time, I believe in age appropriate curriculum. You can learn math, English, or just about any subject at any age--so long as it is age appropriate. It's just plain nonsense to suggest that kids younger that 16 or 18 can't get any benefit from a good program. Japan and China teach various arts to their school kids, and last I checked some of them grow up to be fine martial artists.

There seems to be two objections: awarding a black belt and whether children can learn. If you want kids to look like adults or preform like adults they can't. I agree. But they can achieve high levels of success in an age appropriate program (fourth time). So far I haven't heard from a single person that has actually worked with kids. As far as I am concerned, everyone is disagreeing with me on the basis of an uninformed opinion. And my proof is here: 



 
Mr. Oda was about 19 here. You think he got this good in a year?

Regarding the black belt, I don't think it matters what you award them so long as you give them some recognition. My broader point was the expectation of the parents and the child are such, they expect to be able to earn a "black belt." If you don't offer it, they'll probably think your instruction is lacking and go down the street. Fine, if you don't care. But can you keep the lights on? On the other hand, I offered suggestions of how to meet the expectation of getting the "black belt" but done in a way to not further corrupt the art. If you can sell a read belt or a white belt with black stripes--great. I like it even better. But until the TKD school down the way stops giving away black belts like candy to 8 year olds, you are going to have a devil of a time competing with them. In a market where Joe School Owner has to offer a "black belt" I am not going to flatly deny him that.

And I never made a blanket statement, I said 'probably the school.' Hardly an unqualified blanket statement. In my experience, in my area, most school owners can't support his entire family on teaching adults. It's hard enough for the schools that teach children to make it. For five years I worked at a martial arts supply store, and I spoke to school owners everyday. I also ran a commercial school for a bit. I standby what I said, and I will say it again if need be.


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## SL4Drew

KempoGuy06 said:


> what do you mean by commercial? Many school under on banner or just one school?
> 
> And Im not saying I wont have a black belt at all im just saying that I wont have 10 year olds running around with BB around their waist.
> 
> B


 
Commercial is largely determined by the owner's intent. A lot of guys work a regular job and teach on the side. This isn't determinative, but when you have external considerations it can force you to make different choices than the guy that does it for pocket cash or fun. That being said, I think you can run an 'old school traditional' school and still be commercial. It just may be harder for you to make money.

If we lived in that world were people didn't care about red stripes, where people how deserved the red had it, where no one pays for a promotion, and where every instructor was a good one, then so to would every "black belt" be an "adult." 

My broader point was if you need to offer a junior black belt to compete in your market, I think you can do it and it not be a farce. I believe that you just have to distinguish it in your school and to the observing public, e.g. a white stripe bisecting it. If you don't have to do it to compete, then don't give one. 

It falls on the instructor to make sure the students are competent at any belt level. I see plenty of adults who, in my opinion, look terrible while wearing a black belt. It's not like giving the kid a belt is some magical vestment that allows him into the super-secret martial club. For every terrible junior black belt there is at least that many terrible adult black belts, probably many more. The mark of quality is not the simply the belt. Its also the patch and the instructor. A black belt (regardless of age) in one school or in one system is not going to look like another black from another school and another system. If there is no minimum, universal standard for adults to wear the black belt, then I really don't see how there can be one for kids.

I know I am not exactly old school on this, but at the same time teaching children was not uncommon in China or Japan.


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## SL4Drew

By way of comparison, same school, but an adult testing for fourth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53fXzI_9_5Y&feature=related

You decide.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

SL4Drew said:


> By way of comparison, same school, but an adult testing for fourth:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53fXzI_9_5Y&feature=related
> 
> You decide.


 
I'm amazed they don't have a ton of negative commeents in the comment section. Guy must be editing them out.


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## MJS

SL4Drew said:


> Actually the boy was better than some adults I've seen test for red stripes...seriously. He could have had more intensity. But add that and he'd shame many adults--unfortunately.
> 
> In a commercial environment you have to cater to kids. And you have to reward them with a 'black belt' at the end of their curriculum otherwise they wouldn't come. I think that it is important to structure you program so that 1) the pre-teen understands that he won't be able to take on an adult with a serious intent to harm or capture; 2) that the kids' black belt be treated differently; and 3) the program be age appropriate. For example, wearing a black belt with a white stripe; permitting them to only wear the white uniform; prohibit them from wearing it after a certain age; and so forth. Karate-Do (Shotokan) began more or less as a kids program.
> 
> So I think you can hold kids to high but age appropriate standards. And that includes acknowledging their hard work with a 'black belt.' Doc had a killer kid's program for a while, from which David Oda came. I wish when I was a kid I had been in a program like Doc's. The kids' program in the video could probably be better, but it doesn't appear to be as terrible as some I've seen. I think it stacks up favorably to most TKD _and_ Kenpo schools.
> 
> I'd also add I have yet to meet someone who got a black belt as a kid an stopping training that took that rank all that serious.


 


SL4Drew said:


> Not that I disagree with you, but if you are trying to run a commercial school without awarding some kind of black belt, you won't have a kids program (and probably a school) very long.
> 
> I'd also add with my experience with Boy Scouts, I believe you could reasonably set an age limit lower than 18 for at least some kids.


 
I think I may have to disagree.  You're making it sound as if every 'commercial' school is a Mcdojo, who promotes people left and right.  The school where I train is not like that.  

See, this is another reason why I love the motto that I see so many Kajukenbo schools use....something along the lines of...Kaju is not a if you can afford it, we award it art.  And this is another reason why I personally feel that nobody under 16 should be a black belt.  Additionally, I'm not a fan of young kids, ie: 4, 5, 6, training anyways.  IMO, it seems like the majority of the time, its a babysitting session, instead of a class.

Its sad though, that many instructors, don't have the guts to tell parents that their kids suck.  I mean, I've been teaching for a long time and I've been on the receiving end of parents asking why little Joey didn't pass, get a stripe on his belt, etc.  Students are, IMHO, a reflection of the teacher.  Why would a teacher want someone who sucks to pass?  Is the almighty dollar more important?


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## SL4Drew

MJS said:


> I think I may have to disagree. You're making it sound as if every 'commercial' school is a Mcdojo, who promotes people left and right. The school where I train is not like that.


 
I'll admit it is hard to draw a bright line. As I said, some "commercial" schools can be traditional. Let me also add (in case this didn't come through) no one should teach kids if they don't want to.



MJS said:


> Its sad though, that many instructors, don't have the guts to tell parents that their kids suck. I mean, I've been teaching for a long time and I've been on the receiving end of parents asking why little Joey didn't pass, get a stripe on his belt, etc. Students are, IMHO, a reflection of the teacher. Why would a teacher want someone who sucks to pass? Is the almighty dollar more important?


 
Now that's the real problem. Many years ago when I was an assistant instructor I told a parent that same thing (nicer of course), he got mad, explained to me that he was paying for his kid to come here (not sure how that mattered), and I never taught that kid again--someone else did. To me, this was an example of how 'commercialization' at all levels and ages can be bad. Not only to have to have the guts to tell this guy to keep his money, but you also have to not need it (or be willing to go without).


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## MJS

SL4Drew said:


> Now that's the real problem. Many years ago when I was an assistant instructor I told a parent that same thing (nicer of course), he got mad, explained to me that he was paying for his kid to come here (not sure how that mattered), and I never taught that kid again--someone else did. To me, this was an example of how 'commercialization' at all levels and ages can be bad.


 
And sadly, this is the problem that schools are faced with.  Parents make the threat to leave because their kid isn't getting X.  The parents that I spoke with seemed to forget that I'm not someone who can wave my hand over their kids head and make them perfect.  I do my part, and that is teaching their kid.  They, the parents and the kid, need to do their part, which is to practice and the parent needs to enforce this.  I'd get the "Well, my kid started at the same time Joey did and Joey is 2 belts ahead."  Umm...yeah, and maynbe, just maybe, Joey does what he is supposed to...practice.  

I was simply an inst. at the school.  The school was not mine.  Fortunately, when I encountered rough times, I'd simply refer them to the owner of the school.  I'd explain my side, they'd explain theirs.  The decision would fall on the owner.  Fortunately, more times than not, I was the winner in that battle.


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## KempoGuy06

MJS said:


> *I think I may have to disagree.  You're making it sound as if every 'commercial' school is a Mcdojo, who promotes people left and right.  The school where I train is not like that.  *
> 
> See, this is another reason why I love the motto that I see so many Kajukenbo schools use....something along the lines of...Kaju is not a if you can afford it, we award it art.  And this is another reason why I personally feel that nobody under 16 should be a black belt.  Additionally, I'm not a fan of young kids, ie: 4, 5, 6, training anyways.  IMO, it seems like the majority of the time, its a babysitting session, instead of a class.
> 
> Its sad though, that many instructors, don't have the guts to tell parents that their kids suck.  I mean, I've been teaching for a long time and I've been on the receiving end of parents asking why little Joey didn't pass, get a stripe on his belt, etc.  Students are, IMHO, a reflection of the teacher.  Why would a teacher want someone who sucks to pass?  Is the almighty dollar more important?



Thats what I took it as and I was mad. My school is as old school as I know (limited years training here). My instructor was up front and told me that if i was looking to attain BB in 18 months that i needed to go somewhere else. That the progression was only through hard work and not what you know. At our school even if you know all the material if i were to go through my stuff like the kid did in the OP's video I would still be a white belt. I know kids dont have the same outlook as adults but that kids lack of enthusiasm (for want of a better word) was disgraceful and honestly disrespectful. I would have been laughed at.

again my .02

B


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## KempoShaun

Stances lad, stances!!! If they had a good solid foundation, even with the lack of power, this would look 10x better, let me tell you, I have some junior black belts (they wear a different belt from regular black belts) but they need to perform to the same standards and understand the same concepts of things such as stances, weapon placement (body or foreign object) and moving in a way to generate power, then, when they are 16, they have the option of testing for an adult Shodan, but this... I don't even know where to begin... I, myself, was a Junior Black Belt at age 8, as my dad own/ran the school, but personally, I have huge problems with these junior black belts today. It seems like as the money goes up, the training goes down... Sad


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## terryl965

The bottom line is simple here, the youngman was not held to any kind of standerds what so ever. It is not the child fault but the instructor which allowed this to happen. I can only add that when people see this and go oh my god that kids is terible, what should be said is my god how bad of an instructod id thid to let this happen? Remember the young man is doing what the school owner is asking and accepting, so do not blame the child.


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## KempoGuy06

terryl965 said:


> The bottom line is simple here, the youngman was not held to any kind of standerds what so ever. It is not the child fault but the instructor which allowed this to happen. I can only add that when people see this and go oh my god that kids is terible, what should be said is my god how bad of an instructod id thid to let this happen? Remember the young man is doing what the school owner is asking and accepting, so do not blame the child.


very good point terry and you couldnt be more correct. its the same in college sports, when a team is terrible the players arent kicked off...the coach is fired, same concept applies here. what frightens me the most is what will happen to this kid should he need to use his training in real life.

B


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## MJS

I suppose that this brings up another question, one of which has been debated in the past....the use of a Jr. BB.  The Jr. BB, IMHO, is used to fill in the gap, so to speak, most likely due to the childs age.  So, you have a kid who starts at 4.  By the time he's, lets say 11, he's ready to test, so he gets a Jr. Black Belt and once he reaches a certain age, he'll test for the full black belt.  

If parents complain about little Johnny not keeping up with the Jones', they'll certainly complain about not testing for a full BB.  So, the kid sits at Jr. level for the next 5yrs?  I highly doubt that would fly well.  Of course, usually during that time, the child learns the rest of the material that he didn't get before.  I say this, because usually the childrens material is condensed from what the adults would learn.  So, technically, its as if the child is starting from ground zero again.

So, the school owner has a few choices to pick from. They can:

1) just give the 11yr old a full black belt.

2) use the Jr. BB and once the child reaches a certain age, test for full BB.

3) not accept kids under a certain age.  Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen.


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## MJS

KempoGuy06 said:


> very good point terry and you couldnt be more correct. its the same in college sports, when a team is terrible the players arent kicked off...the coach is fired, same concept applies here. what frightens me the most is what will happen to this kid should he need to use his training in real life.
> 
> B


 
With all of the things parents find to complain about, imagine little Johnny getting his rear kicked, and the parents complain because they invested X number of dollars and X number of years, only to have that training go down the drain.  Of course, we all know that while training should give us the edge, it doesn't put an S on our chest, however, I'd be willing to bet that a good majority of the parents won't understand that.  I mean really, if they can't understand the fact that Johnny doesn't deserve a new belt, they'll certainly not understand the other.


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## KempoGuy06

MJS said:


> I suppose that this brings up another question, one of which has been debated in the past....the use of a Jr. BB.  The Jr. BB, IMHO, is used to fill in the gap, so to speak, most likely due to the childs age.  So, you have a kid who starts at 4.  By the time he's, lets say 11, he's ready to test, so he gets a Jr. Black Belt and once he reaches a certain age, he'll test for the full black belt.
> 
> If parents complain about little Johnny not keeping up with the Jones', they'll certainly complain about not testing for a full BB.  So, the kid sits at Jr. level for the next 5yrs?  I highly doubt that would fly well.  Of course, usually during that time, the child learns the rest of the material that he didn't get before.  I say this, because usually the childrens material is condensed from what the adults would learn.  So, technically, its as if the child is starting from ground zero again.
> 
> So, the school owner has a few choices to pick from. They can:
> 
> 1) just give the 11yr old a full black belt.
> 
> 2) use the Jr. BB and once the child reaches a certain age, test for full BB.
> 
> 3) not accept kids under a certain age.  Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen.



That is a great point. The choices you listed are really the only one except for the instructor to flat refuse to have a Jr. BB and only allow kids to test for a full BB above the age of 16. 

1.) this in my opinion is absurd. How could a kid with a BB honestly defend him self against a kid at 16 who is larger. Yes he knows where to strike and how but still 5 years is a big difference at those ages not like 21 - 26. Even 16 is a big difference than 18 but the gap is much more narrow. 

2.) I dont like this idea because it seems like a money game to me but if you need it to keep the kids around but do it in the right way than Im not against it completely.

3.) This is not a good like you said if the school is the bread and butter for the instructor. Plus a lot of kids need MA's in their life.

Honestly I think it should be said up front that kids will not be able to test for BB until the age of 16 and only if the instructor decides he or she is ready. After 18 they can test if they want when the instruct has set a date for a BB test.

B


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## KempoGuy06

MJS said:


> With all of the things parents find to complain about, imagine little Johnny getting his rear kicked, and the parents complain because they invested X number of dollars and X number of years, only to have that training go down the drain.  Of course, we all know that while training should give us the edge, it doesn't put an S on our chest, however, I'd be willing to bet that a good majority of the parents won't understand that.  I mean really, if they can't understand the fact that Johnny doesn't deserve a new belt, they'll certainly not understand the other.


Completely agree. Its the same attitude with anyone not actually training in the MA's. They think just because we do what we do and know what we know that we can handle any situation. Parents see the belt as a sense of security and it is a false one. 

B


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## stickarts

MJS said:


> I suppose that this brings up another question, one of which has been debated in the past....the use of a Jr. BB. The Jr. BB, IMHO, is used to fill in the gap, so to speak, most likely due to the childs age. So, you have a kid who starts at 4. By the time he's, lets say 11, he's ready to test, so he gets a Jr. Black Belt and once he reaches a certain age, he'll test for the full black belt.
> 
> If parents complain about little Johnny not keeping up with the Jones', they'll certainly complain about not testing for a full BB. So, the kid sits at Jr. level for the next 5yrs? I highly doubt that would fly well. Of course, usually during that time, the child learns the rest of the material that he didn't get before. I say this, because usually the childrens material is condensed from what the adults would learn. So, technically, its as if the child is starting from ground zero again.
> 
> So, the school owner has a few choices to pick from. They can:
> 
> 1) just give the 11yr old a full black belt.
> 
> 2) use the Jr. BB and once the child reaches a certain age, test for full BB.
> 
> 3) not accept kids under a certain age. Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen.


 
There is another option: Have higher levels of Jr. Blackbelt that can be attained. 
Once a child reaches a certain age, they may be eligible to test for full BB, but that doesn't mean that they have to. They shouldn't test until they are ready regardless of what the minimum age requirement is at a given school. Just my 2 cents.
You can slice and dice the various ranks in different ways, but the bottom line is to keep students learning, progressing, and motivated. Whatever method of grading can make that happen, to me , is good. The person makes the rank, the rank doesn't make the person. I have found that the students, and parents, that are there for the right reasons stick around. Those that aren't there for the right reasons don't usually make it to advanced levels anyway. It hasn't been an issue for us.


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## Mark L

SL4Drew said:


> It's easy for people that have had no experience working with kids to shoot down what they are doing. How about we first take on the mountain of adults doing crap, instead of mugging little Johnny who has no reason to know any better?


I've been teaching and assisting in kids classes since the mid '80s. I stand by my characterization of "pathetic", but to be perfectly clear, the responsibility for the patheticness of that childs performance is the instructor.



SL4Drew said:


> ...
> 
> Regarding the black belt, I don't think it matters what you award them so long as you give them some recognition. My broader point was the expectation of the parents and the child are such, they expect to be able to earn a "black belt." If you don't offer it, they'll probably think your instruction is lacking and go down the street. Fine, if you don't care. But can you keep the lights on? On the other hand, I offered suggestions of how to meet the expectation of getting the "black belt" but done in a way to not further corrupt the art. If you can sell a read belt or a white belt with black stripes--great. I like it even better. But until the TKD school down the way stops giving away black belts like candy to 8 year olds, you are going to have a devil of a time competing with them. In a market where Joe School Owner has to offer a "black belt" I am not going to flatly deny him that.


That's absolutely your right. For me, the action of awarding any rank, including black belt, comes with the responsibility for maintaining its' standard. I didn't see that in the video, but I guess that instructor is satisfied with that level of performance at that rank. _My_ opinion based on what _I_ saw, is that the level of skill demonstrated by that child is inconsistent with black belt. The result? When it becomes pervasive? Corrupting the art.



SL4Drew said:


> And I never made a blanket statement, I said 'probably the school.' Hardly an unqualified blanket statement.


 You also said:


SL4Drew said:


> _... you won't have a kids program (...) very long._


 That sounds like an unqualified blanket statement to me. Whatever ...



SL4Drew said:


> _In my experience, in my area, most school owners can't support his entire family on teaching adults. It's hard enough for the schools that teach children to make it. For five years I worked at a martial arts supply store, and I spoke to school owners everyday. I also ran a commercial school for a bit. I standby what I said, and I will say it again if need be._


Well that's your experience, not everyones. I live in a small town, not a single stop light, and there are two thriving schools that have been around for decades, run full time and supporting their owners. One gives Jr BB, the other doesn't. If I just go on _my_ experience, I could say that having a kids program _will_ result in a long standing, successful school. But that would be foolish.


----------



## SL4Drew

Mark L said:


> That sounds like an unqualified blanket statement to me. Whatever ...


 
You can't quote me, disagree, and then say 'whatever' like that's it--argument over. I suggest you also take exception to MJS "Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen." And to KenpoGuy6 "3.) This is not a good like you said if the school is the bread and butter for the instructor. Plus a lot of kids need MA's in their life."

Maybe your are correct with regard to your one-horse town. I grew up in one, and I could see how that may work out. But as this forum cannot adequately represent a thousand little microcosms, I was making a broader more general point. I haven't been everywhere, talking to everyone, but until there is a large aggregation of data suggests that my conclusions are erroneous I am very confident in what I said.



Mark L said:


> Well that's your experience, not everyones. I live in a small town, not a single stop light, and there are two thriving schools that have been around for decades, run full time and supporting their owners. One gives Jr BB, the other doesn't. If I just go on _my_ experience, I could say that having a kids program _will_ result in a long standing, successful school. But that would be foolish.


 
I have been in and around the martial arts since a child and all my adult life. I said I ran a school, and essentially ran a martial arts supply store. I live in a large metro area with urban, suburban, and rural schools. Sure it's my opinion, but I'd say it is better informed than yours appears to be--whether you think it is foolish or not.

To clarify: I submit that the guy that can have a large enough student base to teach martial arts full time and support a family, is going to have difficulty competing for kids if there is no "junior black belt." Are there guys in the situation that can make this work? Sure. But they are small in number. And again let me re-state I am not necessarily in favor of awarding such belts, I am just not going to say that the guy that needs to is a bad instructor _simply_ for awarding a junior black belt.


----------



## Doc

It can be done, but as stated, everything must be age appropriate, and its a lot of hard work. Mr. Parker didn't believe in junior black belts and set his personal age at 16. I remember Rick Carthew received his at the old Santa Monica School, and ended up fighting on the IKKA Team at that age. I raised it to 17 when I wrote the rules for the IKC. He knew that kids would overwhelm the business and assigned me the task of creating a way to deal with it, without corrupting adult ranks as a thesis project.

I developed a "cellular" approach that separated all ranks for him, and their associated curriculum by age. In my own experiments running "youth programs" I found with all ranks, but the young in particular, it doesn't matter what they wear around the waist as long as all their peers receive the same, under the same guidelines. 

With this in mind I created a kids program, and a youth program with age appropriate material for each, and unique accouterment adornment rank belts. I also made provisions for age crossovers, where a child might be months away from a "crossover age point" when they begin the program. The adult program, 17 years and up, remained essentially unchanged.

Mr. Parker did have one proviso. While he suggested the kids black belt should be "available" for marketing purposes, he essentially wanted it to be unattainable by structure to all but the truly rare, (and he stressed rare),  exceptional kid.


----------



## Mark L

SL4Drew said:


> You can't quote me, disagree, and then say 'whatever' like that's it--argument over.


Yes, I can.  You made a blanket statement, with a parenthetical probably, and are using that to rebut being called on it.  The "whatever" is 'cause I don't really care to argue with you.  But I won't let you tell me what I can and can't do on these forums.  I'm making every effort to conduct a polite argument on the topic, without attacking the arguers.  Maybe you could do the same, perhaps starting with the assumptions you're making about fellow posters here.


SL4Drew said:


> I suggest you also take exception to MJS "Of course, this idea runs the risk of failing because if the school is the bread and butter for the owner, not having kids...well, we all know what'll happen."


I suggest you decide what you'll post, and I'll decide what I post, OK?



SL4Drew said:


> Maybe your are correct with regard to your one-horse town. I grew up in one, and I could see how that may work out. But as this forum cannot adequately represent a thousand little microcosms, I was making a broader more general point. I haven't been everywhere, talking to everyone, but until there is a large aggregation of data suggests that my conclusions are erroneous I am very confident in what I said.


I'm not suggesting your conclusions are erroneous, only that the support for them is just as anecdotal as mine, not really justifying a conclusion at all, particularly a broad one.




SL4Drew said:


> I have been in and around the martial arts since a child and all my adult life. I said I ran a school, and essentially ran a martial arts supply store. I live in a large metro area with urban, suburban, and rural schools. Sure it's my opinion, but I'd say it is better informed than yours appears to be--whether you think it is foolish or not.


You know nothing of my history or experience, and yet you'd say you are better informed?  That is arrogant and foolish.  That is why all of my future responses to you will be "whatever".



SL4Drew said:


> To clarify: I submit that the guy that can have a large enough student base to teach martial arts full time and support a family, is going to have difficulty competing for kids if there is no "junior black belt." Are there guys in the situation that can make this work? Sure. But they are small in number.


Without hard data this is speculation, my "one horse town" is 2 for 2 in this regard (I submit that this sample size is way to small to draw any conclusions).


SL4Drew said:


> And again let me re-state I am not necessarily in favor of awarding such belts, I am just not going to say that the guy that needs to is a bad instructor _simply_ for awarding a junior black belt.


I haven't said anything against awarding Jr. BB.  The bad instructor tag goes to those that make such awards without merit, in my opinion, evidenced by the video.


----------



## thetruth

When I did kenpo and graded to purple I had to be able to pull off the techniques at pretty much full speed and the attacks were hard so if I missed I got punched in the face and if I was grabbed and didn't execute a technique properly they didn't let go.  Those attacks were absolute rubbish and someone of that level should have the control etc to do them a heel of a lot faster than that.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


----------



## Tez3

SL4Drew said:


> I'll admit it is hard to draw a bright line. As I said, some "commercial" schools can be traditional. Let me also add (in case this didn't come through) no one should teach kids if they don't want to.
> 
> 
> 
> *Now that's the real problem. Many years ago when I was an assistant instructor I told a parent that same thing (nicer of course), he got mad, explained to me that he was paying for his kid to come here (not sure how that mattered), and I never taught that kid again--someone else did. To me, this was an example of how 'commercialization' at all levels and ages can be bad. Not only to have to have the guts to tell this guy to keep his money, but you also have to not need it (or be willing to go without).[/*quote]
> 
> 
> When you have parents you will have problems whether you are a commercial school or one that teaches for free because you can afford to. Some parents think their child is perfect and must never be criticised by anyone, it's as simple as that.
> If you are charging someone the onus on you is to provide value for money, perhaps thats all this parent wanted? perhaps this child wasn't bad but wasn't being taught properly and thats why the father complained, unfair on you? Perhaps but your story doesn't prove commercialisation is bad, it just proves we've only heard one side of the story.


----------



## terryl965

Tez3 is right some parents see there little Johnny as perfect and must be the best all the time. When you correct or somebody in the school does a little better mommy is mad and upset. So the school owner does what they must to make eveeryone happy.


----------



## SL4Drew

Mark L said:


> Yes, I can. You made a blanket statement, with a parenthetical probably, and are using that to rebut being called on it. The "whatever" is 'cause I don't really care to argue with you. But I won't let you tell me what I can and can't do on these forums. I'm making every effort to conduct a polite argument on the topic, without attacking the arguers. Maybe you could do the same, perhaps starting with the assumptions you're making about fellow posters here.
> I suggest you decide what you'll post, and I'll decide what I post, OK?
> 
> I'm not suggesting your conclusions are erroneous, only that the support for them is just as anecdotal as mine, not really justifying a conclusion at all, particularly a broad one.
> 
> 
> You know nothing of my history or experience, and yet you'd say you are better informed? That is arrogant and foolish. That is why all of my future responses to you will be "whatever".
> 
> Without hard data this is speculation, my "one horse town" is 2 for 2 in this regard (I submit that this sample size is way to small to draw any conclusions).
> I haven't said anything against awarding Jr. BB. The bad instructor tag goes to those that make such awards without merit, in my opinion, evidenced by the video.


 
A whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing.

So far you disagree with me, try to refute my assertions as 'mere opinon', and use rheotric to attack me--rather than discuss the issue at hand, sir. I explained my experience, why I reached the conclusion I did, and clarified why I made the statements I did. Sir, so far you have offered very little substantively. What little you have said, I accurately charaterized and then refuted. You may not like my choice of metaphors, but based on what you stated, I can't see that it was inaccurate. And yes based on what you have chosen to share, yes I'd trust my own experiences and judgments over yours. Now, if you share with us that you are an expert or have other relevant qualifications I will certainly reconsider.

I am not trying to attack you, sir. The simple fact is you and I seem to have a disagreement. You seem to feel passionately about your opinion, but I am asking you to do more than 'feel' your opinionrhetoriccharacterizedopinion, explain it to me rationally.

So to restate my position: When an instructor seeks to carry on full-time as a martial arts instructor and be successful enough to support a family, it will in all likelihood require teaching children and offering a 'junior black belt' to be competitive. I will acknowledge that in a non-competitive environment this may not be true. But I kind of thought that went without saying.


----------



## KempoGuy06

SL4Drew said:


> So to restate my position: When an instructor seeks to carry on full-time as a martial arts instructor and be successful enough to support a family, it will in all likelihood require teaching children and offering a 'junior black belt' to be competitive. I will acknowledge that in a non-competitive environment this may not be true. But I kind of thought that went without saying.



I can agree with that somewhat. In a smaller city it would almost seem imperative that you offer both, in a city such as mine there is no need. The only schools that offer both kids program and jr BB's are...well...lets just say they arent up to scratch with some of the standards Im sure people want on this board. My instructor has 1 school, teaches kids and offers no Jr BB....he is doing fine. I like in Louisville KY by the way, as population goes we are the 16th largest city in the country as for the MA market I dont know where we are but it does seem to be growing.

B


----------



## SL4Drew

Tez3 said:


> When you have parents you will have problems whether you are a commercial school or one that teaches for free because you can afford to. Some parents think their child is perfect and must never be criticized by anyone, it's as simple as that.
> If you are charging someone the onus on you is to provide value for money, perhaps thats all this parent wanted? perhaps this child wasn't bad but wasn't being taught properly and thats why the father complained, unfair on you? Perhaps but your story doesn't prove commercialisation is bad, it just proves we've only heard one side of the story.


 
Throw a pebble...start an avalanche. I hadn't a clue what a touchy subject this was.

A lot of people seem to be projecting their thoughts, emotions, and experience into their reading of what I am saying. I didn't say commercialization is necessarily a bad thing. Most of us wouldn't be here to have this discussion if the martial arts hadn't been commercialized. Whether traditional or commercial, each has its own problems to grapple with.

I think everyone that has posted here so far isn't pleased with the way children are currently dealt with in the martial arts. But things are the way they are because, at a minimum, they were one time functional. Private lessons, cardio karate, black belt clubs, junior blackbelts, and kids ages 5 and up all exist in martial arts for a reason. I submit to you they exist because they are all commercially successful to one degree or another. If these things didn't work in the marketplace, they would have almost certainly never gained traction.

We can all gnash our teeth and render our clothes, but so long as these things are successful marketing tools they aren't going away. The cardio karate fad is largely gone, but I remember when everyone and their brother was doing it. But the others remain because they tend to work and make money. In the real world, if your competitor offers something you don't that the consumer values, won't the customers usually go to the competitor? And if you aren't being competitive, you really aren't commercial.

My overall point was that in a competitive marketplace, a school owner may have to employ some or all of these marketing tools. Consider that there are three commercial schools trying to compete for roughly the same number of students. Sure, there are plenty of intangibles that go into the decision a prospective student makes, and as a school owner you try to control for those. But at the end of the day the bigger, more successful school usually employs some combination of the marketing tools I described above. Does this fact make the program or the instructor sub-standard? I'd say not necessarily.


----------



## SL4Drew

KempoGuy06 said:


> I can agree with that somewhat. In a smaller city it would almost seem imperative that you offer both, in a city such as mine there is no need. The only schools that offer both kids program and jr BB's are...well...lets just say they arent up to scratch with some of the standards Im sure people want on this board. My instructor has 1 school, teaches kids and offers no Jr BB....he is doing fine. I like in Louisville KY by the way, as population goes we are the 16th largest city in the country as for the MA market I dont know where we are but it does seem to be growing.
> 
> B


 
I think you and I agree far more than we disagree. Thank you for your perspective, sir.

Does your school offer a "black belt substitute" for juniors?  I've heard from a few people that suggest that is a good solution for them.


----------



## KempoGuy06

SL4Drew said:


> Throw a pebble...start an avalanche. I hadn't a clue what a touchy subject this was.
> 
> A lot of people seem to be projecting their thoughts, emotions, and experience into their reading of what I am saying. I didn't say commercialization is necessarily a bad thing. Most of us wouldn't be here to have this discussion if the martial arts hadn't been commercialized. Whether traditional or commercial, each has its own problems to grapple with.
> 
> I think everyone that has posted here so far isn't pleased with the way children are currently dealt with in the martial arts. But things are the way they are because, at a minimum, they were one time functional. Private lessons, cardio karate, black belt clubs, junior blackbelts, and kids ages 5 and up all exist in martial arts for a reason. I submit to you they exist because they are all commercially successful to one degree or another. If these things didn't work in the marketplace, they would have almost certainly never gained traction.
> 
> We can all gnash our teeth and render our clothes, but so long as these things are successful marketing tools they aren't going away. The cardio karate fad is largely gone, but I remember when everyone and their brother was doing it. But the others remain because they tend to work and make money. In the real world, if your competitor offers something you don't that the consumer values, won't the customers usually go to the competitor? And if you aren't being competitive, you really aren't commercial.
> 
> My overall point was that in a competitive marketplace, a school owner may have to employ some or all of these marketing tools. Consider that there are three commercial schools trying to compete for roughly the same number of students. Sure, there are plenty of intangibles that go into the decision a prospective student makes, and as a school owner you try to control for those. But at the end of the day the bigger, more successful school usually employs some combination of the marketing tools I described above. Does this fact make the program or the instructor sub-standard? I'd say not necessarily.



we do agree on a lot of things. I think the problem most people have is that at first it *appeared* as if you were stating that the *only* way to be successful was to use these tactics. With saying that it also seemed as if you were making an unsaid statement that successful meant the amount of money coming in as opposed to the amount of quality going out. You argued your point very well and now its obvious that you are merely saying that to have a school with a large enough income to support itself, quality taken out of the equation, that you need to employ 1 or more of said tactics.

is this a fair and correct assumption? 



SL4Drew said:


> I think you and I agree far more than we disagree. Thank you for your perspective, sir.
> 
> Does your school offer a "black belt substitute" for juniors?  I've heard from a few people that suggest that is a good solution for them.



as far as i know, no it does not. you test for BB after 16 if the instructor thinks you are ready and after 18 if you feel you are ready. But again the kids class is much slowed paced....sorta. I say that because they progress faster rank wise but as they move up the belts material from the adult program is added in slowly...BB standards are the same if you 16 or 66 with regard to physical limitations

B


----------



## SL4Drew

KempoGuy06 said:


> we do agree on a lot of things. I think the problem most people have is that at first it *appeared* as if you were stating that the *only* way to be successful was to use these tactics.


 
In the light of this discussion, I think I would say that in a _competitive_ _environment_ I believe you will have to. You could of course add 1,000 qualifiers to that statement, e.g. not in China, if you are not famous, and so on. But then I think it would lose its utility as a proposition.



KempoGuy06 said:


> With saying that it also seemed as if you were making an unsaid statement that successful meant the amount of money coming in as opposed to the amount of quality going out.


 
I would still say that the measure of commercial success is money. And that is why I suggested there was a tension that exists in schools committed to quality. It's a hard balancing act. When pinned down between choosing between the two, which do you choose? If commercial success is your primary goal, then turning away a student is counterproductive. I think perhaps the most slippery term in this whole discussion was 'commercial." I appreciated you bringing that up and attempting to clarifying that, sir.



KempoGuy06 said:


> You argued your point very well and now its obvious that you are merely saying that to have a school with a large enough income to support itself, quality taken out of the equation, that you need to employ 1 or more of said tactics.


 
Thanks. I have a good teacher. Except he is usually right when we disagree...



KempoGuy06 said:


> as far as i know, no it does not. you test for BB after 16 if the instructor thinks you are ready and after 18 if you feel you are ready. But again the kids class is much slowed paced....sorta. I say that because they progress faster rank wise but as they move up the belts material from the adult program is added in slowly...BB standards are the same if you 16 or 66 with regard to physical limitations


 
If understand you, the children learn the same material as the adults. So if they are younger than 16 and complete the black belt material, do they just stay at brown until 16?


----------



## KempoGuy06

SL4Drew said:


> In the light of this discussion, I think I would say that in a _competitive_ _environment_ I believe you will have to. You could of course add 1,000 qualifiers to that statement, e.g. not in China, if you are not famous, and so on. But then I think it would lose its utility as a proposition.


 
very good statement and I agree



SL4Drew said:


> I would still say that the measure of commercial success is money. And that is why I suggested there was a tension that exists in schools committed to quality. It's a hard balancing act. When pinned down between choosing between the two, which do you choose? If commercial success is your primary goal, then turning away a student is counterproductive. *I think perhaps the most slippery term in this whole discussion was 'commercial.*" I appreciated you bringing that up and attempting to clarifying that, sir.


 
That statement is very true to this thread and to the MA community at large in my opinion. you are right though, its hard to chose one from the other but there is a middle ground that may or may not work, i guess the area you live in is the deciding factor. We have a large dojo here in town (more than one location) and from what Ive heard the quality is poor but I guess but the number of locations it is obvious which road he has chosen. The smaller schools are obviously an example of the other road.



SL4Drew said:


> Thanks. I have a good teacher. Except he is usually right when we disagree...


 
im in the same boat



SL4Drew said:


> If understand you, the children learn the same material as the adults. So if they are younger than 16 and complete the black belt material, do they just stay at brown until 16?



same except for kempos which are taught from white on in the adults class but arent taught until blue in the kids class. and most kids wont finish the BB material that much before they turn 16, they might have it all but it will take a long time for them to get it up to standards

B


----------



## MJS

stickarts said:


> There is another option: Have higher levels of Jr. Blackbelt that can be attained.
> Once a child reaches a certain age, they may be eligible to test for full BB, but that doesn't mean that they have to. They shouldn't test until they are ready regardless of what the minimum age requirement is at a given school. Just my 2 cents.
> You can slice and dice the various ranks in different ways, but the bottom line is to keep students learning, progressing, and motivated. Whatever method of grading can make that happen, to me , is good. The person makes the rank, the rank doesn't make the person. I have found that the students, and parents, that are there for the right reasons stick around. Those that aren't there for the right reasons don't usually make it to advanced levels anyway. It hasn't been an issue for us.


 
Great points!   If I recall correctly, you use the higher levels of Jr. Black Belt, correct?


----------



## MJS

Doc said:


> It can be done, but as stated, everything must be age appropriate, and its a lot of hard work. Mr. Parker didn't believe in junior black belts and set his personal age at 16. I remember Rick Carthew received his at the old Santa Monica School, and ended up fighting on the IKKA Team at that age. I raised it to 17 when I wrote the rules for the IKC. He knew that kids would overwhelm the business and assigned me the task of creating a way to deal with it, without corrupting adult ranks as a thesis project.
> 
> I developed a "cellular" approach that separated all ranks for him, and their associated curriculum by age. In my own experiments running "youth programs" I found with all ranks, but the young in particular, it doesn't matter what they wear around the waist as long as all their peers receive the same, under the same guidelines.
> 
> With this in mind I created a kids program, and a youth program with age appropriate material for each, and unique accouterment adornment rank belts. I also made provisions for age crossovers, where a child might be months away from a "crossover age point" when they begin the program. The adult program, 17 years and up, remained essentially unchanged.
> 
> Mr. Parker did have one proviso. While he suggested the kids black belt should be "available" for marketing purposes, he essentially wanted it to be unattainable by structure to all but the truly rare, (and he stressed rare), exceptional kid.


 
Doc, question for you.  In the first paragraph, you said Mr. Parker didn't believe in the Jr. BB and set the age of 16.  At what age did he accept students?  Did he take 4 yr olds like we see schools do today?  Now, depending on the starting age of the child, its possible that they could be sitting at Brown Belt for a while, if 16 is the age for black.  If I'm correct in my assumption, did he find that people had an issue with waiting?


----------



## MJS

Here is something else to ponder.  I'd be willing to bet that if I pulled out the phone book, and called a dozen schools, asking what age they take kids, I'd be willing to bet all of them would say 4yrs old.  So, instead of taking kids at such a young age, what about upping the age?  Instead of 4, take them, at say, 10.  So, for the 'commercial' school owner, does anyone feel that this would hinder them?  We're only talking a 6yr difference here, and we're still taking kids, just not as young.


----------



## SL4Drew

MJS said:


> Here is something else to ponder. I'd be willing to bet that if I pulled out the phone book, and called a dozen schools, asking what age they take kids, I'd be willing to bet all of them would say 4yrs old. So, instead of taking kids at such a young age, what about upping the age? Instead of 4, take them, at say, 10. So, for the 'commercial' school owner, does anyone feel that this would hinder them? We're only talking a 6yr difference here, and we're still taking kids, just not as young.


 
Pot-stirrer.


----------



## KempoGuy06

maybe i dont know though there are only a couple younger than 6 at my school. most are older than 10

B


----------



## stickarts

My view is that martial arts for young kids is fantastic when the program is set up correctly. We do have programs for kids and the emphasis is on physical fitness, basics (punches and kicks, etc..), developing confidence and discipline, and interacting with other kids. As time goes on the skills they learn will be developed further. I have seen many success stories in our kids programs specifically with kids getting in better fitness and improved health, gaining greater confidence and doing better in school, and learning karate fundamentals.
In fact, I think martial arts programs are just what many kids need. They need a sense of structure and to learn to work hard and succeed from a young age.
In our case, we do have a large number of kids in our programs although we do also have  a large adult program too. The other school owners that I have worked with are honest hard working people who actually don't make much money for all of their hard work that they do with the kids and with the rest of the school.
I think its important to take each school on a case by case basis when evaluating kids programs in the martial arts. While some may view it strictly as business, I personally know many who do not. They dedicate a lot of their personal time to help make a positive difference in the lives of others.
I view it just as I view many other activities. For example, we put our daughters in swimming programs at a very young age. They could not even stay afloat in the beginning and had to use floatation devices. Before you knew it, they were swimming around like little fishes! 
Was the swimming program strictly commercial or was it of value? 
Each person must form their own conclusion but I can say that my kids can swim now.


----------



## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> So, instead of taking kids at such a young age, what about upping the age? Instead of 4, take them, at say, 10. So, for the 'commercial' school owner, does anyone feel that this would hinder them? We're only talking a 6yr difference here, and we're still taking kids, just not as young.


 
Why stop there, lets also give them a fitness test.  If you can't pass the push up, sit up, jumping jack test of such and such a number then you can't join us super hero martial artist.  I would say an IQ test is needed also since we do have pretty complex motion theory's concepts and principles and lets face some people just aren't as smart as us martial arts brainiacs.....


----------



## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> Why stop there, lets also give them a fitness test. If you can't pass the push up, sit up, jumping jack test of such and such a number then you can't join us super hero martial artist. I would say an IQ test is needed also since we do have pretty complex motion theory's concepts and principles and lets face some people just aren't as smart as us martial arts brainiacs.....


 
Have I been saying something that is offending you?  I ask, because the obvious sarcasm, is, well...obvious.

Let me say this....in the end, it won't matter what I or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing.  I know what I do, I know what my teachers do, and I know what others are doing, especially if they put stuff like this on youtube.  Thank God there're some non McDojos out there that don't offer the fries and coke with the belt.

Is every commercial school a McDojo?  No, but teachers should make an effort to stand up for whats right and have the stones to tell people when they're not up to par.  What about that Kaju saying, "We're not a if you can afford it, we award it art."  Do you disagree with that?

Its sad when you hear people bash an art because there're guys running around slapping the bars on their belt, passing out belts to people who don't deserve it, the list goes on and on and on.  

I'm simply saying, if you want to teach kids, great, teach them.  If you don't, then don't teach them.  But put the quality before the quantity.  Of course, judging by your comments, I almost get the impression that you condone what McDojos do.  You get upset when people talk about high rank, you get upset when people talk about training in 20 different arts, with 8th and 9th degrees in all of them.  Guess I can't win.

Sorry man, I call 'em like I see 'em.  If that offends someone, what can I say.  Perhaps instead of bashing those who think clips like this suck, perhaps you can justify for us, why you think this kid is good, why you think teachers should pass out rank like its free, and why people can train in 10 arts, reach a high rank, yet only be in their late 40s, early 50s.


----------



## Tez3

I teach two classes of children, a class for the 4-7 and a class for 7 to about 14. We don't do blackbelts for them. At 14/15 they can move up to my adult class and work for a BB from there. 
I will defend starting children so young in my area because there is a need for the children to. Most of their fathers and some others too are serving soldiers, many are away in Afghanistan at the memont, the remaining parents structure their childrens routines so that they have stability. My classes for the very young ones teaches them basic martial arts, co-ordination, listening skills etc and gives them a rough and tumble time with male adults that they miss when their fathers are away. Should a martial arts club be doing this? In our case yes, we are part of the community here and those of you in the military or ex military know how that works.
We don't do it for the money (what money lol?) I teach children because I enjoy it, though I don't enjoy some of the parents sometimes.
I remember a long time ago being told theres no bad students...only bad instructors. If a student is failing I take it that I have failed and will do everything I can to get that person child or not up to a standard they can be proud of and usefully employ if needed.


----------



## MJS

SL4Drew said:


> It's easy for people that have had no experience working with kids to shoot down what they are doing. How about we first take on the mountain of adults doing crap, instead of mugging little Johnny who has no reason to know any better?
> 
> The real problem are the instructors and their programs. I can't hardly fault a kid that wants to learn martial arts, any more than a kid that wants to shot a BB gun, go camping, or play football. I'll repeat what I said now for the third time, I believe in age appropriate curriculum. You can learn math, English, or just about any subject at any age--so long as it is age appropriate. It's just plain nonsense to suggest that kids younger that 16 or 18 can't get any benefit from a good program. Japan and China teach various arts to their school kids, and last I checked some of them grow up to be fine martial artists.
> 
> There seems to be two objections: awarding a black belt and whether children can learn. If you want kids to look like adults or preform like adults they can't. I agree. But they can achieve high levels of success in an age appropriate program (fourth time). So far I haven't heard from a single person that has actually worked with kids. As far as I am concerned, everyone is disagreeing with me on the basis of an uninformed opinion. And my proof is here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Oda was about 19 here. You think he got this good in a year?
> 
> Regarding the black belt, I don't think it matters what you award them so long as you give them some recognition. My broader point was the expectation of the parents and the child are such, they expect to be able to earn a "black belt." If you don't offer it, they'll probably think your instruction is lacking and go down the street. Fine, if you don't care. But can you keep the lights on? On the other hand, I offered suggestions of how to meet the expectation of getting the "black belt" but done in a way to not further corrupt the art. If you can sell a read belt or a white belt with black stripes--great. I like it even better. But until the TKD school down the way stops giving away black belts like candy to 8 year olds, you are going to have a devil of a time competing with them. In a market where Joe School Owner has to offer a "black belt" I am not going to flatly deny him that.
> 
> And I never made a blanket statement, I said 'probably the school.' Hardly an unqualified blanket statement. In my experience, in my area, most school owners can't support his entire family on teaching adults. It's hard enough for the schools that teach children to make it. For five years I worked at a martial arts supply store, and I spoke to school owners everyday. I also ran a commercial school for a bit. I standby what I said, and I will say it again if need be.


 
A few things.  I've taught kids classes for many years.  The kids ranged in age from 4 to one in their teens.  Sure, there were some young kids, who were naturals.  You could show them something, they'd retain it, and be able to perform it, and yes, it looked good.  Of course, there were the ones who probably should not have been enrolled, because their lack of attention and lack of retention was poor.  For those kids, I'd usually suggest private lessons to the parents, so 1 on 1 attention could be given.  Its hard to give that 1 on 1, in a room of 20.  

If the Jr. BB is going to be used, fine, use it.  However, it should be made clear and up front, before any contract is signed, before the kid even sets foot on the dojo floor, that things are earned, not given.  If a parent can't accept that their child may have to wait X amount of time, until they're old enough, then perhaps the best route to take would be to point them in the direction of a school who has no issues with the fast food mentality.  

Sadly, parents will most likely flock to the McDojo, making them rich, while the legit school suffers.  Parents will think that their child will actually be good, that their child will actually be able to pull off a move, and that he actually put hard work and sweat into getting that belt.  So the Mcdojo owner will gladly hand over the belt, coke and fries, laughing all the way to the bank.  People don't want to work, or earn anything anymore, and that is sad.  They want everything spoon fed to them, while patting them on the back, telling them these bogus lies, making them believe that they're BB material.


----------



## MJS

Tez3 said:


> I teach two classes of children, a class for the 4-7 and a class for 7 to about 14. We don't do blackbelts for them. At 14/15 they can move up to my adult class and work for a BB from there.
> I will defend starting children so young in my area because there is a need for the children to. Most of their fathers and some others too are serving soldiers, many are away in Afghanistan at the memont, the remaining parents structure their childrens routines so that they have stability. My classes for the very young ones teaches them basic martial arts, co-ordination, listening skills etc and gives them a rough and tumble time with male adults that they miss when their fathers are away. Should a martial arts club be doing this? In our case yes, we are part of the community here and those of you in the military or ex military know how that works.
> We don't do it for the money (what money lol?) I teach children because I enjoy it, though I don't enjoy some of the parents sometimes.
> I remember a long time ago being told theres no bad students...only bad instructors. If a student is failing I take it that I have failed and will do everything I can to get that person child or not up to a standard they can be proud of and usefully employ if needed.


 
Could you clarify for me what you mean by basic martial arts?  What or should I say how much material are you teaching?


----------



## SL4Drew

MJS said:


> Sorry man, I call 'em like I see 'em. If that offends someone, what can I say. Perhaps instead of bashing those who think clips like this suck, perhaps you can justify for us, why you think this kid is good, why you think teachers should pass out rank like its free, and why people can train in 10 arts, reach a high rank, yet only be in their late 40s, early 50s.


 
I'll save a seat for you on the bus.  We'll ride it together.


----------



## SL4Drew

MJS said:


> If the Jr. BB is going to be used, fine, use it. However, it should be made clear and up front, before any contract is signed, before the kid even sets foot on the dojo floor, that things are earned, not given. If a parent can't accept that their child may have to wait X amount of time, until they're old enough, then perhaps the best route to take would be to point them in the direction of a school who has no issues with the fast food mentality.
> 
> Sadly, parents will most likely flock to the McDojo, making them rich, while the legit school suffers. Parents will think that their child will actually be good, that their child will actually be able to pull off a move, and that he actually put hard work and sweat into getting that belt. So the Mcdojo owner will gladly hand over the belt, coke and fries, laughing all the way to the bank. People don't want to work, or earn anything anymore, and that is sad. They want everything spoon fed to them, while patting them on the back, telling them these bogus lies, making them believe that they're BB material.


 
Exactly.  Which is what makes competing with them so hard for the good guy trying to do it right and make a living at it.


----------



## Carol

Personally I'm not fond of the idea of a junior black belt. I'd rather see kids given a separate title all their own, and give them a chance to have a little bit of fun with their success.  Call them a candidate, a dragon, a tiger, a ninja and give them the chance to pick out a belt of their own that isn't used by anyone else in the program, such as a camo belt or a silver belt or a red-white-and-blue belt, and then have them test for black when they are physically and emotionally ready for it.  I tend to lean towards 18 as a benchmark because of the eyes of the law, but I know there are some kids out there that are ready for an adult black belt before then. Conversely there are others that won't be ready for a black belt by then as well.


----------



## JadeDragon3

KempoGuy06 said:


> i dont not agree, in no way should you *have* to give a kid a black belt. Tell them up front, as I would do, that they will not receive until the age of 18 (which I feel is the right age) or unless they demonstrate the maturity level to handle the responsibilities of the rank. Once they attain that rank they need to also understand that in the eyes of the instructor and the people at the dojo they are an adult and from then on will be treated like an adult.
> 
> sorry my .02
> 
> B


 
What is the big deal with not giving a kid a black belt. If the kid does everything that the adults do then why not? I'm 35 years old and got my black sash in Sil Lum Kung Fu when I was 17 BUT I did everything that the adults did. I had to break a concrete block, sparr my Sifu (teacher), and sparr the assistant instructor, do all the exercises the adults did (run 5 miles, push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, hold horse stance for long time, etc...), and then perform ALL the material that adults did. Of course I was wrestling for my high school so I was in the best shape of my life when it came time to test for my black sash.  Why should I have been deprived of my black sash?


----------



## stickarts

One positive thing that I have noticed is that more and more students coming in are better educated on schools and programs than they used to be. Many have either gotten referrals from other students in our programs or in other cases they have visited several schools, watched classes, and done on-line research before joining. There are still some that just come in because they like our location or the price, however, it's surprising how much research some people are actually doing now before committing. I think this is good. The more educated the public can be the better. That still won't stop those that want to take the fast track, but its a step in the right direction. There will always be some that are quality minded, and some that are not. And that applies to students and schools.


----------



## MJS

Lets do some comparison.  Here we have a student from Kingis Kajukenbo going for her Jr. BB.  





 
Compare the intensity in her form vs. the students in the other clip.  I see Jasmine actually showing some intensity, yet in the other clip, its more just going thru the moves.

Look at the difference in the sparring in this clip.




 
Another Jr. BB test




 
A few clips from John Bishops Kaju school


----------



## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> Have I been saying something that is offending you? I ask, because the obvious sarcasm, is, well...obvious.
> 
> Let me say this....in the end, it won't matter what I or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing. I know what I do, I know what my teachers do, and I know what others are doing, especially if they put stuff like this on youtube. Thank God there're some non McDojos out there that don't offer the fries and coke with the belt.
> 
> Is every commercial school a McDojo? No, but teachers should make an effort to stand up for whats right and have the stones to tell people when they're not up to par. What about that Kaju saying, "We're not a if you can afford it, we award it art." Do you disagree with that?
> 
> Its sad when you hear people bash an art because there're guys running around slapping the bars on their belt, passing out belts to people who don't deserve it, the list goes on and on and on.
> 
> I'm simply saying, if you want to teach kids, great, teach them. If you don't, then don't teach them. But put the quality before the quantity. Of course, judging by your comments, I almost get the impression that you condone what McDojos do. You get upset when people talk about high rank, you get upset when people talk about training in 20 different arts, with 8th and 9th degrees in all of them. Guess I can't win.
> 
> Sorry man, I call 'em like I see 'em. If that offends someone, what can I say. Perhaps instead of bashing those who think clips like this suck, perhaps you can justify for us, why you think this kid is good, why you think teachers should pass out rank like its free, and why people can train in 10 arts, reach a high rank, yet only be in their late 40s, early 50s.


 

Aaaahhh struck a cord there didn't I..No one said you weren't allowed to call them like you see em.  You can bash anybody you want to, but while you do just remember that somewhere in your training hall there exists a code of conduct that has words like etiquette, honor, and respect.  

This kid got his JR black belt, so what.  Does it make you any more or less of a martial artist?  Is there injustice in the world yup, is there rank inflation yuuup, is there people out there making a ton of money teaching junk I suppose so  I read the so called martial arts mags, get the emails telling me how to better run my school by charging for every little thing I offer.  

Phew sounds like you been holding that in a long time man, you shouldn't let the little things bother you, but hey you got a vendetta thats fine have at it.  I like you am offering my opinion.  I do not think teaching kids is a bad idea, I think that anyone can learn something from the martial arts.  Will I deny someone that has performed to the best of their ability because somewhere along the line some one else decided ther is an age limit on ability. 

And you should know by now there isn't any winning, just playing the game.....oh and I believe I said in my first post I won't be commenting on the clip.

Peace brotha


----------



## Steve

MJS said:


> Here is something else to ponder. I'd be willing to bet that if I pulled out the phone book, and called a dozen schools, asking what age they take kids, I'd be willing to bet all of them would say 4yrs old. So, instead of taking kids at such a young age, what about upping the age? Instead of 4, take them, at say, 10. So, for the 'commercial' school owner, does anyone feel that this would hinder them? We're only talking a 6yr difference here, and we're still taking kids, just not as young.


My BJJ school takes kids starting at 3.  Of course, it falls firmly into what sl4drew mentioned early in the thread.  The program is age appropriate.  At 3-5, they mostly practice tumbling, get lots of exercise and learn some very basic stuff.  The older kids start working self defense and incorporate some sparring.  

It's commercially viable, has lots of room for kids to advance and receive recognition, but at the same time maintains standards.  Everyone wins. 

I've said before, I think kids learn a lot more valuable life lesson WORKING for and earning something based upon merit than based upon seniority/longevity.  While tenacity should be praised, rank and advancement should be based upon ability and achievement.   

Standards and age specific programs are not mutually exclusive, however.  It's possible to have both.


----------



## JadeDragon3

All I know is that when I walked (or should I say crawled) away from my b.b. test I felt like I totally earned my black sash.  My Sifu beat me like a drum when we sparred.  I had a foot print (size 12) embedded on my ribs from where he side kicked me.....lol.  I was big for my age and could hold my own against adults at age 16.  I guess because I was on the wrestling team in high school so I was built pretty good then.  Of course age has taken it's toll on me.......LOL.


----------



## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> Aaaahhh struck a cord there didn't I..No one said you weren't allowed to call them like you see em. You can bash anybody you want to, but while you do just remember that somewhere in your training hall there exists a code of conduct that has words like etiquette, honor, and respect.


 
LOL, dude, you didn't strike anything.  However, I think some of my posts have touched a nerve or two with you.  Not just in this thread either.   So, you're saying I should respect someone who runs a Mcdojo and cheats people out of their money, by making them believe that they're actually good?  Umm..yeah, ok.



> This kid got his JR black belt, so what. Does it make you any more or less of a martial artist? Is there injustice in the world yup, is there rank inflation yuuup, is there people out there making a ton of money teaching junk I suppose so I read the so called martial arts mags, get the emails telling me how to better run my school by charging for every little thing I offer.


 
Like I said, in the end, it won't matter what I, you or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing.  Just sad that people will think of certain arts as the laughing stock because of things like this, but oh well, we'll just keep pluggin' along. 



> Phew sounds like you been holding that in a long time man, you shouldn't let the little things bother you, but hey you got a vendetta thats fine have at it. I like you am offering my opinion. I do not think teaching kids is a bad idea, I think that anyone can learn something from the martial arts. Will I deny someone that has performed to the best of their ability because somewhere along the line some one else decided ther is an age limit on ability.


 
LOL, its no vendetta, although, like you've done in so many other posts, you assume I'm talking about someone specifically.  Like I said, I know what I do, and I sure know what the others do, and in the end, its those people that'll have to live with the rep. that they bring upon themselves.  




> And you should know by now there isn't any winning, just playing the game.....oh and I believe I said in my first post I won't be commenting on the clip.
> 
> Peace brotha


 
Really bro, why are you in this thread?  I'm not the only one who has said something negative about the clip, yet you pick my posts.  Hmm...is it because you dislike my habit of pointing out some less than honest folks in the MA world?  Keep on drinking the kool aid bro.  

Hopefully, when that East Coast gathering come around, we can get along, share some training with each other, and kick back afterwards and have some good convo. without the politics and other assorted crap.


----------



## KempoGuy06

JadeDragon3 said:


> What is the big deal with not giving a kid a black belt. If the kid does everything that the adults do then why not? I'm 35 years old and got my black sash in Sil Lum Kung Fu when I was 17 BUT I did everything that the adults did. I had to break a concrete block, sparr my Sifu (teacher), and sparr the assistant instructor, do all the exercises the adults did (run 5 miles, push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, hold horse stance for long time, etc...), and then perform ALL the material that adults did. Of course I was wrestling for my high school so I was in the best shape of my life when it came time to test for my black sash.  Why should I have been deprived of my black sash?


I say 18 because ive seen the maturity level of some of the kids at my school and knew my own at that age. some if not all of them can not handle that responsibility until they are 18. I may change my mind as I watch them grow but thats my opinion on it now

B


----------



## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> LOL, dude, you didn't strike anything. However, I think some of my posts have touched a nerve or two with you. Not just in this thread either.  So, you're saying I should respect someone who runs a Mcdojo and cheats people out of their money, by making them believe that they're actually good? Umm..yeah, ok.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, in the end, it won't matter what I, you or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing. Just sad that people will think of certain arts as the laughing stock because of things like this, but oh well, we'll just keep pluggin' along.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, its no vendetta, although, like you've done in so many other posts, you assume I'm talking about someone specifically. Like I said, I know what I do, and I sure know what the others do, and in the end, its those people that'll have to live with the rep. that they bring upon themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really bro, why are you in this thread? I'm not the only one who has said something negative about the clip, yet you pick my posts. Hmm...is it because you dislike my habit of pointing out some less than honest folks in the MA world? Keep on drinking the kool aid bro.
> 
> Hopefully, when that East Coast gathering come around, we can get along, share some training with each other, and kick back afterwards and have some good convo. without the politics and other assorted crap.


 
I wasn't picking on your threads, my response just fit better responding to that particular post.  Do I think you should respect someone who is cheating somebody else no, and if you think I am drinking the coolaid you don't know me very well.

I hold no disrespect for your views or anyone elses views on the topic but when I hear things like this all I see is the last tournament I attended (as a spectator it has been a lot longer since I competed) and watching fathers verbally bash their kids becuase they didn't win or so called sensei's screaming at students for 2nd place.  I know sounds like the scene out of karate kid but it really happened and it really bothered me.

I don't think kids that get their jr bb think that they can take on adults or even kids a lot bigger then them.  Then again some of the most uncoordinated adults I have met thought they were tuff as nails.

Anyway, of course we will be able to have some fun training and learn from each other....some of my best friends don't agree with a thing I say just ask my wife.


----------



## JTKenpo

MJS said:


> Like I said, in the end, it won't matter what I, you or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing. Just sad that people will think of certain arts as the laughing stock because of things like this, but oh well, we'll just keep pluggin' along. quote]
> 
> No one art is a laughing stock, they all are to somebody.  You will find the same politics the same lack of quality and the same devious instructors in all the arts some where along the line.  and yes that is sad but true


----------



## KELLYG

JMS
 Thanks for the video's.  Especially the young lady doing her form.  I am not familiar with the form that she is doing but I see what each technique is designed for >> I see the fight<<<  if that makes any since to ya.  The young man in the op I did not. 
 If each of these two were in street cloths in a park preforming, one I would see a fight the other ????


----------



## DavidCC

JadeDragon3 said:


> What is the big deal with not giving a kid a black belt. If the kid does everything that the adults do then why not? I'm 35 years old and got my black sash in Sil Lum Kung Fu when I was 17 BUT I did everything that the adults did. I had to break a concrete block, sparr my Sifu (teacher), and sparr the assistant instructor, do all the exercises the adults did (run 5 miles, push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, hold horse stance for long time, etc...), and then perform ALL the material that adults did. Of course I was wrestling for my high school so I was in the best shape of my life when it came time to test for my black sash. Why should I have been deprived of my black sash?


 
You were clearly not a child, and not testing for a "Junior BB".


----------



## 14 Kempo

Simply stated, a Jr. Black Belt is *NOT* a Black Belt, thus the Jr. preceeding it, usually accompanied with some sort of stripe, color or insignia on the belt that seperates it from an adult or Dan ranked BB.

Personally, I have not awarded a Jr. BB to anybody, but I've seen some awarded. In my mind, some were deserved, others weren't. From what I saw in the OP video, a belt above blue would not have been deserved and quite frankly it seemed to be a joke (although I realize it wasn't).

JMHO


----------



## Tez3

MJS said:


> Could you clarify for me what you mean by basic martial arts? What or should I say how much material are you teaching?


 
For the 4-7 year olds ( I'll use English) they do front snap punch, reverse punch, rising and hook punch plus back fist. Kicks will be front snap kick, axe kick and roundhouse and jumping front kick which they love. They learn a little blocking kata so they have inside, outside and high blocks. They'll do knees as well. Also they learn to breakfall ( so easy for them I get very jealous lol) and a couple of basic Judo throws. We have small foam nunchakus which they love doing. each activity is only for a few minutes so they don't lose concentration. It should be fun while they are learning, they don't need to know that something is helping hand eye cordination or listening skills.
Its not all done in one lesson of course! they'll play games like musical shadow sparring, kicks punches etc until the music stops and they have to stand still in a shape/move I can see. We have relays races with kicks bags and I set up an assault course using bags to jump over, kick shields put so they crawl through, bags for them to kick etc.
The lesson is three quarters of an hour, they start with a warm up then stretches then a game of dodgeball to get the high spirits out so they can concentrate on a few minutes work then a boisterous game then some more 'work' then we will probably play bulldog,then line up and go over very quickly anything new so they can remember it, bow off. 
What we find is that they settle easier into the 'big' class when they go up than others of the same age who've not been to the little class.
I'd any of them volunteer to take the warm up I let them, it's brilliant watching a little one have the confidence to get up and take them through the simple moves we do. They look so proud when you bow to them and say thank you! 
The class isn't regarded as a baby sitting service by any parent but I will tell any mum who's looking harrassed to get off either home or to the cafe for a bit of time to herself and I'll hang onto the the kids until the next class starts so they can have an hour to themselves. During big deployments I'll have extra classes as well for the same reason. I've been in that position and know what an hour of peace is worth.
As I said we don't do black belts for kids but the children on the whole we teach are perhaps quite mature even the little ones, they change homes and schools every couple of years, have been over most of Europe if not more though that in itself can cause problems.


----------



## MJS

JadeDragon3 said:


> What is the big deal with not giving a kid a black belt. If the kid does everything that the adults do then why not? I'm 35 years old and got my black sash in Sil Lum Kung Fu when I was 17 BUT I did everything that the adults did. I had to break a concrete block, sparr my Sifu (teacher), and sparr the assistant instructor, do all the exercises the adults did (run 5 miles, push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, hold horse stance for long time, etc...), and then perform ALL the material that adults did. Of course I was wrestling for my high school so I was in the best shape of my life when it came time to test for my black sash. Why should I have been deprived of my black sash?


 


JadeDragon3 said:


> All I know is that when I walked (or should I say crawled) away from my b.b. test I felt like I totally earned my black sash. My Sifu beat me like a drum when we sparred. I had a foot print (size 12) embedded on my ribs from where he side kicked me.....lol. I was big for my age and could hold my own against adults at age 16. I guess because I was on the wrestling team in high school so I was built pretty good then. Of course age has taken it's toll on me.......LOL.


 
KG6 pretty much summed it up.  The person in the original clip was nowhere near the age of 16-18.  My thoughts again, were in line with KG....the older someone is, we hope that maturity comes along with it, as well as what a BB really means.  Judging by your description of the test, it sounds like it was pretty rough.  I'd imagine that your teacher expected you to perform at 150%.  I'm didn't see that in the original clip.  The other clips I posted....yes, those were much more intense.


----------



## MJS

stevebjj said:


> My BJJ school takes kids starting at 3. Of course, it falls firmly into what sl4drew mentioned early in the thread. The program is age appropriate. At 3-5, they mostly practice tumbling, get lots of exercise and learn some very basic stuff. The older kids start working self defense and incorporate some sparring.
> 
> It's commercially viable, has lots of room for kids to advance and receive recognition, but at the same time maintains standards. Everyone wins.
> 
> I've said before, I think kids learn a lot more valuable life lesson WORKING for and earning something based upon merit than based upon seniority/longevity. While tenacity should be praised, rank and advancement should be based upon ability and achievement.
> 
> Standards and age specific programs are not mutually exclusive, however. It's possible to have both.


 


Tez3 said:


> For the 4-7 year olds ( I'll use English) they do front snap punch, reverse punch, rising and hook punch plus back fist. Kicks will be front snap kick, axe kick and roundhouse and jumping front kick which they love. They learn a little blocking kata so they have inside, outside and high blocks. They'll do knees as well. Also they learn to breakfall ( so easy for them I get very jealous lol) and a couple of basic Judo throws. We have small foam nunchakus which they love doing. each activity is only for a few minutes so they don't lose concentration. It should be fun while they are learning, they don't need to know that something is helping hand eye cordination or listening skills.
> Its not all done in one lesson of course! they'll play games like musical shadow sparring, kicks punches etc until the music stops and they have to stand still in a shape/move I can see. We have relays races with kicks bags and I set up an assault course using bags to jump over, kick shields put so they crawl through, bags for them to kick etc.
> The lesson is three quarters of an hour, they start with a warm up then stretches then a game of dodgeball to get the high spirits out so they can concentrate on a few minutes work then a boisterous game then some more 'work' then we will probably play bulldog,then line up and go over very quickly anything new so they can remember it, bow off.
> What we find is that they settle easier into the 'big' class when they go up than others of the same age who've not been to the little class.
> I'd any of them volunteer to take the warm up I let them, it's brilliant watching a little one have the confidence to get up and take them through the simple moves we do. They look so proud when you bow to them and say thank you!
> The class isn't regarded as a baby sitting service by any parent but I will tell any mum who's looking harrassed to get off either home or to the cafe for a bit of time to herself and I'll hang onto the the kids until the next class starts so they can have an hour to themselves. During big deployments I'll have extra classes as well for the same reason. I've been in that position and know what an hour of peace is worth.
> As I said we don't do black belts for kids but the children on the whole we teach are perhaps quite mature even the little ones, they change homes and schools every couple of years, have been over most of Europe if not more though that in itself can cause problems.


 
Thank you both for your replies.   I'll try to touch on areas of each of your posts.  The babysitting comment that I made earlier...IMHO, I feel that a parent should be supportive of any activity that their child is doing.  I also don't feel that a child should be forced into taking lessons, if its something they really don't want to do, but instead something that the parent wants.  Kids are going to pick up on that.  I say this because I've seen it.  Kids would come and go, and I'd have to wonder if they even had a parent, because I never saw them.  And its these same people, who would complain when it came time to a stripe or promotion, that their child was falling behind.  Hmm...well, ya think maybe you should show up from time to time, so the inst. can talk with you?  

Material for that age was usually half of what was required for older kids.  As Tez said, I too would make alot of the learning, into a 'game' so it would appear more fun to the kids.  

As I said, I'm not opposed to the use of the Jr. BB.  However, seeing that this is one step so to speak below the real deal, I'd think that the child who is wearing it would have a) solid stances, b) focus and intensity, c) power in their punches and kicks.  IMO, going thru a kata, its a pre-set series of moves, so basically, its as if you're going thru an imaginary fight.  So if thats the case, one would think that a, b, and c would be included in that.


----------



## MJS

JTKenpo said:


> I wasn't picking on your threads, my response just fit better responding to that particular post. Do I think you should respect someone who is cheating somebody else no, and if you think I am drinking the coolaid you don't know me very well.


 
I made that comment because I got the impression, when you mentioned the code of conduct, that those views should be upheld in every case.  Thanks for the clarification. 



> I hold no disrespect for your views or anyone elses views on the topic but when I hear things like this all I see is the last tournament I attended (as a spectator it has been a lot longer since I competed) and watching fathers verbally bash their kids becuase they didn't win or so called sensei's screaming at students for 2nd place. I know sounds like the scene out of karate kid but it really happened and it really bothered me.


 
I've seen that before as well.  I've had parents actually leave the seating area and come out onto the training floor to yell, coach, or whatever.  Needless to say I had to stop and tell them to return to the proper area, as their actions were taking away from the rest of the class.  And what you describe is the #1 reason why I began to develop a dislike for competition.  Imagine whats going thru the minds of the kids when their parents/teachers are screaming at them.  I feel that a parent or coach should be able to conduct themselves without making the child feel like a piece of trash.




> Anyway, of course we will be able to have some fun training and learn from each other....some of my best friends don't agree with a thing I say just ask my wife.


 
Sounds good.:ultracool


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## MJS

KELLYG said:


> JMS
> Thanks for the video's. Especially the young lady doing her form. I am not familiar with the form that she is doing but I see what each technique is designed for >> I see the fight<<< if that makes any since to ya. The young man in the op I did not.
> If each of these two were in street cloths in a park preforming, one I would see a fight the other ????


 
Glad you liked them.   That was the reason I posted them..to show that kids who're testing for a Jr. BB, can still put in 150% effort and show some power, stances, etc.  While I don't know GM Kingi personally, I've read enough about him to get the impression that he doesn't hand out rank.  When you get a promotion, you've earned that belt, no matter what the rank, with hard work and lots of sweat.


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## MJS

To take this thread a step further, I'd like to slightly change direction once again.  JT made this statement in a post, it caught my eye, so I wanted to get feedback from everyone.



> Will I deny someone that has performed to the best of their ability because somewhere along the line some one else decided ther is an age limit on ability.


 
So the question is:  what do you each feel the standards should be for a Jr. BB?  What do you base your judgement on?

I'll post my reply later on.


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## Steve

MJS said:


> Thank you both for your replies.  I'll try to touch on areas of each of your posts. The babysitting comment that I made earlier...IMHO, I feel that a parent should be supportive of any activity that their child is doing. I also don't feel that a child should be forced into taking lessons, if its something they really don't want to do, but instead something that the parent wants. Kids are going to pick up on that. I say this because I've seen it. Kids would come and go, and I'd have to wonder if they even had a parent, because I never saw them. And its these same people, who would complain when it came time to a stripe or promotion, that their child was falling behind. Hmm...well, ya think maybe you should show up from time to time, so the inst. can talk with you?
> 
> Material for that age was usually half of what was required for older kids. As Tez said, I too would make alot of the learning, into a 'game' so it would appear more fun to the kids.
> 
> As I said, I'm not opposed to the use of the Jr. BB. However, seeing that this is one step so to speak below the real deal, I'd think that the child who is wearing it would have a) solid stances, b) focus and intensity, c) power in their punches and kicks. IMO, going thru a kata, its a pre-set series of moves, so basically, its as if you're going thru an imaginary fight. So if thats the case, one would think that a, b, and c would be included in that.


I agree completely.  The 7 to 14 year old kids' class is great fun to watch and the parents almost always stick around.  On Wednesdays, when I don't have something else going on, I'll suit up in time to do some sparring with the kids.  A lot of guys do the same, particularly on days when the kids are all different sizes.  It's good for the bigger kids to spar with someone on whom they can't just muscle around or sit on and stall.  

I've found that it's great fun to spar with the little guys, rolling around and working with them on technique.  I've also found that it's a great way to pad my record.  I can totally tap those 9 year olds out!


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## Doc

MJS said:


> To take this thread a step further, I'd like to slightly change direction once again.  JT made this statement in a post, it caught my eye, so I wanted to get feedback from everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> So the question is:  what do you each feel the standards should be for a Jr. BB?  What do you base your judgement on?
> 
> I'll post my reply later on.



I have no standard for a jbb. The requirements are cast in stone, for everyone. Anyone of the age of a jr. who could meet my standards would have to have the intellectual capacity of someone much older, and more years of experience than their limited time on earth could provide.


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## KempoGuy06

MJS said:
			
		

> To take this thread a step further, I'd like to slightly change direction once again. JT made this statement in a post, it caught my eye, so I wanted to get feedback from everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will I deny someone that has performed to the best of their ability because somewhere along the line some one else decided ther is an age limit on ability.
> 
> 
> 
> So the question is:  what do you each feel the standards should be for a Jr. BB?  What do you base your judgement on?
> 
> I'll post my reply later on.
Click to expand...


thats a very good question an one I was pondering over during my workout 2 days ago. I stayed at the dojo to watch the advanced kids class. I saw, to my amazement some of the kids displaying not only great skill, but a great understanding of what they were doing. 

For example one of the blue belts or blue w/green stripe was asked to perform a certain kempo/combo by our instructor, then he was asked to alter it if the attacker where to come at a different angle or with a left hook as a opposed to a straight punch. the kid then executed the technique again. 

That is the kids of knowledge and understanding i think should be required. That is very advanced for a 12 year old in opinion. While I did see that which is most positive, I also saw a lack of power and enthusiasm when doing most of the material. Now this may be different when testing and knowing my instructor and his expectations Im sure it is. 

So to answer MJS's question, i would say that knowledge along these lines to not only use their material in context but to be able to adapt it accordingly to any situation that should arise, within limits of course. Also when test for said rank they obviously need to show their material with enthusiasm and power as if they were performing them to fight for their life.

B


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## GBlues

If I as an adult got to a martial arts school, doesn't matter what style. I expect that the instructor there is going to teach me that style. So just as an example I go to Johnny's Kenpo Karate school. I expect to learn Kenpo not Taekwondo, or a watered down version of Kenpo. I expect to learn Kenpo. I'm paying for it, I should learn that. Now I say this because the same is true with little Johnny. If he wants to be there, and I mean wants to be there, and mom and dad are paying for it, he should be learning Kenpo, not a watered down, Jr.'s only Kenpo. There is absolutely no reason for why you can not hold a child to the same standards as an adult, in this regard. To teach something that is not complete is a disservice not only to yourself, your students parents, but more importantly to your young student. Where I grew up that kid in the first video would have got stomped on the play ground, I know. That is a disservice to the child. He is not being taught his chosen style. To have a separate kids only style is a disservice to your younger students in my opinion, and is disrespectful not only to them but to there parents. It's basically saying, "Look your too young to be here, and too stupid to handle real karate. So we'll teach you this instead, until your old enough to handle the real karate." That's b.s. to me. 

Look at Ernie Reyes Jr. By the time he was ten he was competing in adult competitions as a black belt. He couldn't handle real Taekwondo? THe adult material? COme on. Younger students that want to train, will put forth the effort. Those that don't won't. It's simple. If mom and dad don't like that Johnny is still a white or yellow belt, they need to reconsider why there child is going. Are they making him go, even though he'd rather be at home playing video games? Or does he want to go? If they are angry that he's not advancing, the answer is simple, " Martial arts is a very serious study. All of our students regardless of age are held to the same standards. If he isn't at the standard for yellow or orange belt he won't test. If chooses to anyways and he isn't up to par, he won't pass. Little Davy over there showed he is at the standard I hold everyone too, therefore he passes. Furthermore to give your son something that he has not earned is a disservice to him and the other students. I will not disrespect my students any of them including Johnny by dumbing down the material. He is capable of this, and with practice he could be where Davy is, but he chooses not too, and it is evident." It's that simple. Mom and dad can argue all they want, but the bottom line is they know Johnny isn't practicing, and he aint at the same level as the other students.

To take this one step further if you hold all of your students to the same standards. Maybe Davy will be a jr. bb by the time he's ten looking like an adult bb. When he turns 18 he isn't testing for his 1st dan, he maybe testing for his 4 or 5th perhaps by 18. Cause he put the time in, learned the morals, the ethics, etc...and he learned the adult material from the beginning. Not some watered down children are stupid martial arts. Maybe you'd have fewer children in your classroom. But the ones that you'd have would be really good, and they may move on to other martial arts and bring what they learn there back, and share it with you, and you can learn from the student. Just a few thoughts from a guy who doesn't own or run a school. Take it for what you will.:asian:


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## Steve

GBlues said:


> If I as an adult got to a martial arts school, doesn't matter what style. I expect that the instructor there is going to teach me that style. So just as an example I go to Johnny's Kenpo Karate school. I expect to learn Kenpo not Taekwondo, or a watered down version of Kenpo. I expect to learn Kenpo. I'm paying for it, I should learn that. Now I say this because the same is true with little Johnny. If he wants to be there, and I mean wants to be there, and mom and dad are paying for it, he should be learning Kenpo, not a watered down, Jr.'s only Kenpo. There is absolutely no reason for why you can not hold a child to the same standards as an adult, in this regard. To teach something that is not complete is a disservice not only to yourself, your students parents, but more importantly to your young student. Where I grew up that kid in the first video would have got stomped on the play ground, I know. That is a disservice to the child. He is not being taught his chosen style. To have a separate kids only style is a disservice to your younger students in my opinion, and is disrespectful not only to them but to there parents. It's basically saying, "Look your too young to be here, and too stupid to handle real karate. So we'll teach you this instead, until your old enough to handle the real karate." That's b.s. to me.
> 
> Look at Ernie Reyes Jr. By the time he was ten he was competing in adult competitions as a black belt. He couldn't handle real Taekwondo? THe adult material? COme on. Younger students that want to train, will put forth the effort. Those that don't won't. It's simple. If mom and dad don't like that Johnny is still a white or yellow belt, they need to reconsider why there child is going. Are they making him go, even though he'd rather be at home playing video games? Or does he want to go? If they are angry that he's not advancing, the answer is simple, " Martial arts is a very serious study. All of our students regardless of age are held to the same standards. If he isn't at the standard for yellow or orange belt he won't test. If chooses to anyways and he isn't up to par, he won't pass. Little Davy over there showed he is at the standard I hold everyone too, therefore he passes. Furthermore to give your son something that he has not earned is a disservice to him and the other students. I will not disrespect my students any of them including Johnny by dumbing down the material. He is capable of this, and with practice he could be where Davy is, but he chooses not too, and it is evident." It's that simple. Mom and dad can argue all they want, but the bottom line is they know Johnny isn't practicing, and he aint at the same level as the other students.
> 
> To take this one step further if you hold all of your students to the same standards. Maybe Davy will be a jr. bb by the time he's ten looking like an adult bb. When he turns 18 he isn't testing for his 1st dan, he maybe testing for his 4 or 5th perhaps by 18. Cause he put the time in, learned the morals, the ethics, etc...and he learned the adult material from the beginning. Not some watered down children are stupid martial arts. Maybe you'd have fewer children in your classroom. But the ones that you'd have would be really good, and they may move on to other martial arts and bring what they learn there back, and share it with you, and you can learn from the student. Just a few thoughts from a guy who doesn't own or run a school. Take it for what you will.:asian:


I don't completely disagree with you, GBlues.  That said, my first thought was to remember playing peewee football.  If my peewee football coach had taught us "real football" our moms would never have let us play.  We were too small, too uncoordinated and hadn't mastered the fundamentals.  Trying to teach a group of 8 year olds the West Coast Offense is a somewhat ridiculous idea.

As a kid, my brother was really good at baseball.  His coach loved him and convinced my parents that he was ready to step up to the next level.  So, there he was, 12 years old and playing with high school kids.  He had the skills and the talent, but he was 12.  He was smaller than every other player in the league and didn't have the strength.  He got creamed, hated it and after that season never played again.  

I can't speak for others, but this is what I mean by age appropriate programs and goals.  I think the specific recognition, whether it's a patch, a "jr black belt" or whatever, is arbitrary and somewhat beside the point.  The program needs to be age appropriate.  

While my daughter is there to learn BJJ, I have no desire nor expectation that she is learning what I'm learning.  Her goals and my goals for her are completely different because she's 11.  What I'm paying for when I take her to class is a fun place where she gets exercise, learns practical fundamentals and hopefully cultivates a joy for exercise in general and for BJJ specifically.  That's really it.


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## KempoGuy06

stevebjj said:


> I don't completely disagree with you, GBlues.  That said, my first thought was to remember playing peewee football.  If my peewee football coach had taught us "real football" our moms would never have let us play.  We were too small, too uncoordinated and hadn't mastered the fundamentals.  Trying to teach a group of 8 year olds the West Coast Offense is a somewhat ridiculous idea.
> 
> As a kid, my brother was really good at baseball.  His coach loved him and convinced my parents that he was ready to step up to the next level.  So, there he was, 12 years old and playing with high school kids.  He had the skills and the talent, but he was 12.  He was smaller than every other player in the league and didn't have the strength.  He got creamed, hated it and after that season never played again.
> 
> I can't speak for others, but this is what I mean by age appropriate programs and goals.  I think the specific recognition, whether it's a patch, a "jr black belt" or whatever, is arbitrary and somewhat beside the point.  The program needs to be age appropriate.
> 
> While my daughter is there to learn BJJ, I have no desire nor expectation that she is learning what I'm learning.  Her goals and my goals for her are completely different because she's 11.  What I'm paying for when I take her to class is a fun place where she gets exercise, learns practical fundamentals and hopefully cultivates a joy for exercise in general and for BJJ specifically.  That's really it.



I completely agree with you steve. 

My instructor isnt dumming down the material for the kids he is just taking out certain things so they have more time to concentrate on the basics. then once they are at a higher rank and have grasped the basics then he will introduce those things back into their material.

I also do not think that kids can not learn adult material. it a proven fact that by starting kids off in a foreign language early they will grasp more of it in the same amount of time as an adult would. Kids are bright and intelligent and the fact that they have not come into their own so to speak is a blessing because they can be influenced more easily to study hard and learn to love the MA's. While I give them all this credit they still have short comings that we adults do not have such as shorter attention spans. 

B


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## jks9199

stevebjj said:


> I don't completely disagree with you, GBlues.  That said, my first thought was to remember playing peewee football.  If my peewee football coach had taught us "real football" our moms would never have let us play.  We were too small, too uncoordinated and hadn't mastered the fundamentals.  Trying to teach a group of 8 year olds the West Coast Offense is a somewhat ridiculous idea.
> 
> As a kid, my brother was really good at baseball.  His coach loved him and convinced my parents that he was ready to step up to the next level.  So, there he was, 12 years old and playing with high school kids.  He had the skills and the talent, but he was 12.  He was smaller than every other player in the league and didn't have the strength.  He got creamed, hated it and after that season never played again.
> 
> I can't speak for others, but this is what I mean by age appropriate programs and goals.  I think the specific recognition, whether it's a patch, a "jr black belt" or whatever, is arbitrary and somewhat beside the point.  The program needs to be age appropriate.
> 
> While my daughter is there to learn BJJ, I have no desire nor expectation that she is learning what I'm learning.  Her goals and my goals for her are completely different because she's 11.  What I'm paying for when I take her to class is a fun place where she gets exercise, learns practical fundamentals and hopefully cultivates a joy for exercise in general and for BJJ specifically.  That's really it.


Early adolescence is a complicated place to compare kids.  Kids bodies and adeptness are all over the place.  A kid may be notably advanced over other kids his age, but too small to compete with kids a year or two older.  He almost certainly won't have the emotional development to be on par with teammates a couple of years older.

Which also is why I'm not a fan of jr. black belts, especially below age 16.  By 16, most (not all!  I had a high school classmate who grew the better part of a foot if not more after he got his driver's license...) kids have had their major growth spurts, and are settling into their bodies and coordination.


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## SifuJohnson

As I have stated in previous posts there are three basic types of schools competitive, academic and combat. Competitive schools are in it for the bling. The trophies and medals they decorate their schools and mantles with. What I see them do looks like great gymnastics and they are usually in great shape but to me what I see is unrealistic from a self-defense point of view. &#8220;See how great I am&#8221; could be the standing motto.

The academic schools teach movement and technique but many have no practical application experience. They don&#8217;t commit themselves out of fear of getting hurt I guess and though they may know theory most could not fight their way out of a paper bag. It looks to me like this young man is testing for one of these schools.

Combat oriented schools are the real deal as far as I&#8217;m concerned, but they are also schools where you can get hurt on occasion. The up side is that it produces great martial artists. The down side is that you pay a price for your knowledge and to &#8220;Joe average public&#8221; who is used to instant solutions and not much work it is not very popular.

There was a time when all schools were combat oriented but commercialization killed a lot of that. Instead of keeping to a plan that emphasized quality over quantity many instructors only wanted to cash in on something that was going to make them rich. They cut corners and promoted people before they were ready. The curriculum of many of these commercial schools these days is a joke. Karate Lite! It is no wonder so many people these days show little or no interest in learning the martial arts. Many schools these days are a joke! Instead they get into MMA thinking that is the real deal (but that is another rant).

If the young man in this test is happy I guess he got what he wanted out of the deal, but I can tell you that no student of mine will test before he or she is ready and I don&#8217;t care how old they are because you have to have standards! As a kenpo instructor I have a responsibility to make sure all my students are the best they can be. If forced to defend themselves I want them to have a fighting chance. That to me is what this is all about and I take this responsibility very seriously. Why? Because what I teach someone might be the difference between them coming home to loved ones standing or in a pine box. 
Peace..out!


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## Tez3

I set high standards for all the children, they love to rise to them. Seriously, if they see that you believe in them, that they can do things they will rise to that every time. I expect them to do the same as the adults but I don't give them as many techniques to do. They need something to aspire to, if they learn everything at once they'll get bored. 

Outside of the childrens class though we do have a 15 year old who trains MMA with us, started at 14 and has his first amateur fight next month. MMA training can be brilliant for teenage boys, they come in, train hard, get battered around a bit, do some battering, get treated as an adult and prove themselves...to themselves! He's the second lad we've taken on at 14, the other is now 20, a pro fighter, an instructor, teetotal, doesn't smoke and going for the auditions for TUF later this year. Neither of them will be blackbelts, the older has a title belt already, I fully expect in the next few years the younger one will have one too.


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## MJS

To answer my own question...

While I understand that a child and an adult are 2 different people, that still does not mean that a child can't have strong punches, strong stances, focus, intensity....many of the things we saw in the second set of clips that I posted.  

Now the ability to do something.  If we took two things, say a neutral bow stance and a jump spinning inward crescent kick.  IMHO, it should not take much to be able to get into a solid stance.  On the other hand, everyone has varying levels of flexibility, so I would not expect everyone to perform a kick like that.  

There should also be a level of maturity.  Does the child have the ability to understand the material, be able to answer some fairly detailed questions about what they're doing.


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## SifuJohnson

Some years ago I was invited to a school to be part of a testing board not really knowing what to expect. Upon arrival I was told by the head instructor that he had already decided that the people testing had advanced enough to qualify for advancement and that the test was just a formality. The resulting testing at all levels was dismal to say the least but all students were promoted that day. That was the last time I ever considered being on that schools testing board.
To let a student advance when they dont have command of the basic concepts, principles and basic movements is dishonest to the student. Often times its reflected to even a greater degree at advanced levels. 
Im not ashamed to say I would have failed the student in the video clip even though he may have known and understood the material he was testing on. Why? Because sometimes you learn more positive things from failure then you learn from success. Any student regardless of age needs to demonstrate that they not only know whats going on but that they have the capacity and ability to demonstrate their knowledge at the proper intensity using the correct control and power for the level they are testing. Unfortunately this kid was only going through the motions


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## Tez3

SifuJohnson, is that a rant against MMA per se or a rant against people who think they can just start up MMA classes without the requisite knowledge?


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## JadeDragon3

DavidCC said:


> You were clearly not a child, and not testing for a "Junior BB".


 
I was 17 becuase I was in high school when I got it. And no it was not a Jr. black belt.  My school didn't have such a thing.  We had kids that were 14 with black sashes (not Jr. black sash) but they did everything the adults did as well.  No, I take that back......the 14 year old broke boards instead of bricks/patio tiles. That was the only difference.


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## SifuJohnson

Tez3 said:


> SifuJohnson, is that a rant against MMA per se or a rant against people who think they can just start up MMA classes without the requisite knowledge?


 
First it depends on what you consider Mixed Martial Arts. I teach my students that kenpo is a mixed martial art and have demonstrated this point on many occasions. However what is often thought of as MMA these days is not a self-defense system it is a brutal sport and I have mixed feelings about it. 

If we are talking Jujitsu style events where there are strict rules, safety gear and limitations I see no problem with people of all ages engaging in spirited competition. However if it is geared towards what we see on TV as Extreme Fighting I have major concerns about anyone under 18 being involved. The damage these people do to each other is too much for kids who are still in the process of developing and can do permanent harm to even those in the best of shape. 

What they call MMA these days would not work on the street for most people. It may work nicely when you are equal in strength or stronger, just as big or bigger and it is a one on one situation. Even the best MMA fighter has his work cut out for him in a multiple attacker situation. Now you can say look at all the kenpo fighters that have been beat up in matches with MMA people but to me it is an apples and oranges sort of thing in that the kenpo people always have to fight the MMA fighters fight and play by the MMA fighters rules. In the street there are no rules and referee to stop things when they get out of hand. I have often thought it would be interesting to see someone like Joe Lewis in his prime or Bruce Lee against some of these folks but that is just a thought I get once and awhile when Im bored.

What I see on TV reminds me more of professional wrestling than a martial arts competition. Not since the days of the WWF have I seen so many over developed gladiators banging heads and twisting their opponents into arm locks and choke holds. About the only thing we havent seen yet is masks and cage matches but dont fret Im sure it wont be long. Sorry Hulkster but youll need to hide the folding chairs and watch out for foreign objects because big money has finally found the latest payday and almost everyone (except me) seems to have bought completely into it. LOL 

No really if what they call MMA these days is your thing and you dont mind the liabilities involved knock yourself out. Ill stick with my tired old (and very effective) kenpo and we will both be happy.
Peaceout!


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## Twin Fist

i do not teach kids any differently than the adults

however, no one under 16 is EVER getting an adult black belt from me.

not gonna happen, no way no how

Jr black has the same standards as adult black. But any junior black is junior in rank to any adult black. At 16 they test again for adult black.


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## SL4Drew

SifuJohnson said:


> If the young man in this test is happy I guess he got what he wanted out of the deal, but I can tell you that no student of mine will test before he or she is ready and I dont care how old they are because you have to have standards! As a kenpo instructor I have a responsibility to make sure all my students are the best they can be. If forced to defend themselves I want them to have a fighting chance. That to me is what this is all about and I take this responsibility very seriously. Why? Because what I teach someone might be the difference between them coming home to loved ones standing or in a pine box.
> Peace..out!


 
I don't think I disagree with you, if I taught kids I would demand a lot out of them.  But when it comes to kids as young as the boy in the video, who does he need a fighting chance against?  If we are talking a 10 year vs. a grown man intent on hurting him, I am not sure there are many 10 year olds that could take on the guy and win.  And those that can probably aren't looking to start in the martial arts.


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## Tez3

SifuJohnson said:


> First it depends on what you consider Mixed Martial Arts. I teach my students that kenpo is a mixed martial art and have demonstrated this point on many occasions. However what is often thought of as MMA these days is not a self-defense system it is a brutal sport and I have mixed feelings about it.
> 
> If we are talking Jujitsu style events where there are strict rules, safety gear and limitations I see no problem with people of all ages engaging in spirited competition. However if it is geared towards what we see on TV as Extreme Fighting I have major concerns about anyone under 18 being involved. The damage these people do to each other is too much for kids who are still in the process of developing and can do permanent harm to even those in the best of shape.
> 
> What they call MMA these days would not work on the street for most people. It may work nicely when you are equal in strength or stronger, just as big or bigger and it is a one on one situation. Even the best MMA fighter has his work cut out for him in a multiple attacker situation. Now you can say look at all the kenpo fighters that have been beat up in matches with MMA people but to me it is an apples and oranges sort of thing in that the kenpo people always have to fight the MMA fighters fight and play by the MMA fighters rules. In the street there are no rules and referee to stop things when they get out of hand. I have often thought it would be interesting to see someone like Joe Lewis in his prime or Bruce Lee against some of these folks but that is just a thought I get once and awhile when I&#8217;m bored.
> 
> What I see on TV reminds me more of professional wrestling than a martial arts competition. Not since the days of the WWF have I seen so many over developed gladiators banging heads and twisting their opponents into arm locks and choke holds. About the only thing we haven&#8217;t seen yet is masks and cage matches but don&#8217;t fret I&#8217;m sure it won&#8217;t be long. Sorry Hulkster but you&#8217;ll need to hide the folding chairs and watch out for &#8220;foreign objects&#8221; because big money has finally found the latest payday and almost everyone (except me) seems to have bought completely into it. LOL
> 
> No really if what they call MMA these days is your thing and you don&#8217;t mind the liabilities involved knock yourself out. I&#8217;ll stick with my tired old (and very effective) kenpo and we will both be happy.
> Peace&#8230;out!


 


I think you have many misconceptions of MMA based on what you see on US television. Firstly it's a sport, here in the UK we treat it as such, we train SD differently. It's less violent than many sports such as American football, ice hockey and rugby. it' merely full contact martial arts and it frankly upsets me that people have the wrong image of it. You are judging it purely from a couple of promotions who are out to make money. Here we don't make money from it, if we had I could have come across to America for the last two Meet and Greet instead of ploughing my hard earned savings into shows.

MMA fighters here are for the most part tradtionally trained, TKD, karate, MT and Judo etc. The MMa fights are a game of physical chess, great fun to watch. brutal no and theres no reason for teenagers not to be involved, they fight amateur rules, no head shots standing or on the ground plus locks aren't put on fully. safer then than many TKD, karate and Judo comps.

Please don't condemn the sport just because of the UFC, take a look at what we do and see what MMA really is.


----------



## GBlues

Twin Fist said:


> i do not teach kids any differently than the adults
> 
> however, no one under 16 is EVER getting an adult black belt from me.
> 
> not gonna happen, no way no how
> 
> Jr black has the same standards as adult black. But any junior black is junior in rank to any adult black. At 16 they test again for adult black.


 
Why? If your teaching, and there learning the same material, why not? Even if it's called jr. bb, why make them test at 16 again for a bb that they have already earned? Is it 2nd degree, or only first? If it's a first degree, they have already earned it when they tested as a child. THey met your standards at say 14, so why make them test again, for what they have already earned? Do you charge them to take this test a second time around? or is it a free test?


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## Twin Fist

because BB is not just a test of SKILLS, it is a test of maturity and of mindset

the mindset of a child is not that of an adult.

For example, I have ONE 6 year old right now. I have already told his parents that it will take him at LEAST 6 years for BB, and even then, it will be a junior bb, till 16 when he will have to test again for adult BB.

average time for BB is 4 1/2 years

it will take him at least 6 because he is still growing, his balance and co-ordination are constantly changing. So he will learn slower.

I dont give BB's to children. Kids get Junior BB till 16

if more people did that, the martial arts would still be respected

my instructor promotes to BB at whatever age, and lets then get thier 2nd, 3rd, whatever.

I disagree with this practice.

every 10 yr old BB makes us all look silly


----------



## Doc

All of my rank test have a minimum of 30 essay questions. No true/false, no multiple choice. Black belt includes all of the previous written questions plus an additional 200. For a child to get a black belt from me, he would not only need the physical skills, but the intellectual maturity to inculcate the academic material.


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## Tez3

Doc said:


> All of my rank test have a minimum of 30 essay questions. No true/false, no multiple choice. Black belt includes all of the previous written questions plus an additional 200. For a child to get a black belt from me, he would not only need the physical skills, but the intellectual maturity to inculcate the academic material.


 
What do you do in the case of dyslexia? I actually know children who'd find the academic bit far easier than the physical part, I've never felt that academic tests proved a lot other than the ability to pass tests. 
I was watching Supernanny in America this evening and she was with two marine biologists in Hawaii, lovely people, both had their doctorates and not an ounce of common sense between them. They couldn't even potty train their children.


----------



## Doc

Tez3 said:


> What do you do in the case of dyslexia?


I don't accept them.


> I actually know children who'd find the academic bit far easier than the physical part, I've never felt that academic tests proved a lot other than the ability to pass tests.


While academic testing is not an indicator of the ability to perform, academic tests in conjunction with physical performance examination is the best indicator available in any activity. Most tests ate multiple choice, true/false which provides the answer, and then allows you to guess. Essay examinations force you to express your own understanding of the material.


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## hongkongfooey

stickarts said:


> There is another option: Have higher levels of Jr. Blackbelt that can be attained.
> 
> Nah, not a good Idea. This is Kenpo were talking about here. Before you know it we'll have a  self promoted, preteen, 10th degree Jr. Blackbelt running around.


----------



## stickarts

hongkongfooey said:


> stickarts said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is another option: Have higher levels of Jr. Blackbelt that can be attained.
> 
> Nah, not a good Idea. This is Kenpo were talking about here. Before you know it we'll have a self promoted, preteen, 10th degree Jr. Blackbelt running around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not on my watch (at my school)
Click to expand...


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## GBlues

Twin Fist said:


> because BB is not just a test of SKILLS, it is a test of maturity and of mindset
> 
> the mindset of a child is not that of an adult.
> 
> For example, I have ONE 6 year old right now. I have already told his parents that it will take him at LEAST 6 years for BB, and even then, it will be a junior bb, till 16 when he will have to test again for adult BB.
> 
> average time for BB is 4 1/2 years
> 
> it will take him at least 6 because he is still growing, his balance and co-ordination are constantly changing. So he will learn slower.
> 
> I dont give BB's to children. Kids get Junior BB till 16
> 
> if more people did that, the martial arts would still be respected
> 
> my instructor promotes to BB at whatever age, and lets then get thier 2nd, 3rd, whatever.
> 
> I disagree with this practice.
> 
> every 10 yr old BB makes us all look silly


 
I'm going to have to disagree with you about children learning slower. I don't care what your reasons are to say this. Your flat wrong. When your young your mind is like a sponge, it can absorg alot of things, because it's never gotten wet yet. That is just utter non-sense. Reality is you shouldn't be teaching children. I noticed you didn't answer the question about charging them for there 1st adult black belt. Why is that?

Furthermore your assumption that bb is more than just skills it is a test of maturity and mindset. I will have to disagree with you on that. IF you don't know the maturity level and mindset of your student after 6 years, you shouldn't be teaching, or you should start thinking about smaller classes so you can get a little more in depth with your students. THey shouldn't be testing even for a jr.bb if they don't have that mindset or the maturity level. THat is not teaching them the same thing as the adults. That is again a dumbing down of the art. I believe it has been said by many martial artists, that the martial arts are 90% mental and 10% physical. That is not holding them to the same standards as the adults. I just don't get it.

Now, children bb's are not why the martial arts get a bad rap. It's because they get there bb and they are not prepared to defend themselves. THe first confrontation they get into they get the snot kicked out of them, well that to a lot people says quite a bit about a martial art. They aren't properly trained. Why? Because it was more valuable to the instructor to collect $65 bucks a month and charge for the tests, and just give out belt rankings than it was to teach. That's the reality. If you train them to defend themselves for real, they will do it, and probably better than most adults. I would go so far as to say it isn't that 1000's of children around the world need a confidence booster for why they join martial arts studios. I would say it probably has more to do with, mom and dad are tired of little johnny coming home with a black eye, having not eaten all day because he got his lunch money stolen. NOw I'm done with this rant, please don't take offense. I just call it like I see it, ( or read it.). On to my next issue.

Essay questions??? THey show the understanding the student has of the art??? Again 5-6 years is a long time to spend teaching somebody something. You should know if he has an understanding of the material before he tests. That's why your the instructor and he's the student. If he doesn't you shouldn't let him test. It's beyond me. Why does it seem to me that everybody that is an instructor here feels like they have to make these tests as hard as they can possibly make them? I realize they are supposed to be hard, but my god man. How hard does it have to be?  I mean I hear stories of guys that have to run 5 miles, do 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, do all of there kata's from white belt to black, spar, and then maybe they'll pass. Unless your in the military is it necassary to run a freaking marathon before you show what you can do? "Well, they have to show they can perform under a high-stress situation." Do you train them that way? Make them do all of those things before class starts? If not why? You know these are the questions that I ask myself when I hear these things. If your going to do that, why not just learn and then teach Krav Maga you know? Alright I'm sorry guys my rant is over.


----------



## Twin Fist

did i do something to give you the impression I care what you think?

cuz if i did, it was an accident, trust me

How DARE you tell me I shouldnt be teaching children. Then to to say "no offense"???

too late, you HAVE offended. 

I mentioned thier BODIES you know, in MY school martial arts is a PHYSICAL skill as well as mental. Since a childs body is still growing and developing, they are gonna learn slower. Thier balance is not as good. this means it takes longer to learn physical skills

maybe YOUR school is all mental, mine is hard work outs with lots of sweat.

Thier character isnt muture enough as a CHILD to deal with the life or death decisions a BB has to make.

if you debate this, you need to leave martial arts and take up ballet


and BTW- not that it is any of your business, and not that your rude as hell post has earned you the courtesy of an answer, but NO, the retest to adult black doesnt cost anything.


----------



## SifuJohnson

Tez3 said:


> I think you have many misconceptions of MMA based on what you see on US television. Firstly it's a sport, here in the UK we treat it as such, we train SD differently. It's less violent than many sports such as American football, ice hockey and rugby. it' merely full contact martial arts and it frankly upsets me that people have the wrong image of it. You are judging it purely from a couple of promotions who are out to make money. Here we don't make money from it, if we had I could have come across to America for the last two Meet and Greet instead of ploughing my hard earned savings into shows.
> 
> MMA fighters here are for the most part tradtionally trained, TKD, karate, MT and Judo etc. The MMa fights are a game of physical chess, great fun to watch. brutal no and theres no reason for teenagers not to be involved, they fight amateur rules, no head shots standing or on the ground plus locks aren't put on fully. safer then than many TKD, karate and Judo comps.
> 
> Please don't condemn the sport just because of the UFC, take a look at what we do and see what MMA really is.


 
My friend, I live in the United States and though you are correct to remind me that things may be different in the UK, I would like to also remind you that people in this country see and want to emulate what they see on TV and what they see these days is the UFC and Extreme Fighting. 

Perception is reality and there are many of us who feel more than a little upset because the MMA we see on TV gives people the perception that this is what martial arts is all about. I dont have the millions of dollars to promote what I do like UFC does so I am stuck with all these false perceptions generated by their advertising and events. 

Many in this country who used to see the martial arts as a beneficial element now see it as a blood sport and dont want their children to be involved. There is a MMA school in my city that uses the motto If you want artbuy a paint brush. This one line alone has accomplished the destruction of an image that took decades for martial arts schools to generate.

Im glad you are doing well and that MMA in your part of the world is in a healthy state. Maybe life is a little different there and to be honest I really hope so. But if you ever get the chance to come to the States dont be so naïve as to think that what you do will be perceived as you are in Briton. 
I wish you the best.

Peaceout!


----------



## MJS

GBlues said:


> If I as an adult got to a martial arts school, doesn't matter what style. I expect that the instructor there is going to teach me that style. So just as an example I go to Johnny's Kenpo Karate school. I expect to learn Kenpo not Taekwondo, or a watered down version of Kenpo. I expect to learn Kenpo. I'm paying for it, I should learn that. Now I say this because the same is true with little Johnny. If he wants to be there, and I mean wants to be there, and mom and dad are paying for it, he should be learning Kenpo, not a watered down, Jr.'s only Kenpo. There is absolutely no reason for why you can not hold a child to the same standards as an adult, in this regard. To teach something that is not complete is a disservice not only to yourself, your students parents, but more importantly to your young student. Where I grew up that kid in the first video would have got stomped on the play ground, I know. That is a disservice to the child. He is not being taught his chosen style. To have a separate kids only style is a disservice to your younger students in my opinion, and is disrespectful not only to them but to there parents. It's basically saying, "Look your too young to be here, and too stupid to handle real karate. So we'll teach you this instead, until your old enough to handle the real karate." That's b.s. to me.


 
A 7yr old child and a 30yo adult will have a very different understanding of the arts.  In the average Parker Kenpo school, there're 24 techs per belt plus the katas/forms/sets, etc.  Are you telling me that a 7yr old is going to retain all that?  As far as watering down the material....i do not feel that the material should be changed, hwoever, the amount that the child vs. the adult gets will need to be condensed.



> Look at Ernie Reyes Jr. By the time he was ten he was competing in adult competitions as a black belt. He couldn't handle real Taekwondo? THe adult material? COme on. Younger students that want to train, will put forth the effort. Those that don't won't. It's simple. If mom and dad don't like that Johnny is still a white or yellow belt, they need to reconsider why there child is going. Are they making him go, even though he'd rather be at home playing video games? Or does he want to go? If they are angry that he's not advancing, the answer is simple, " Martial arts is a very serious study. All of our students regardless of age are held to the same standards. If he isn't at the standard for yellow or orange belt he won't test. If chooses to anyways and he isn't up to par, he won't pass. Little Davy over there showed he is at the standard I hold everyone too, therefore he passes. Furthermore to give your son something that he has not earned is a disservice to him and the other students. I will not disrespect my students any of them including Johnny by dumbing down the material. He is capable of this, and with practice he could be where Davy is, but he chooses not too, and it is evident." It's that simple. Mom and dad can argue all they want, but the bottom line is they know Johnny isn't practicing, and he aint at the same level as the other students.


 
The odds that we will find somone like ER is slim.  I mean, if you took 20 kids that would fit the Jr BB mold, I'd be willing to bet that you'd have 1, maybe 2, if that, that would be able to be placed in the category of someone above average.



> To take this one step further if you hold all of your students to the same standards. Maybe Davy will be a jr. bb by the time he's ten looking like an adult bb. When he turns 18 he isn't testing for his 1st dan, he maybe testing for his 4 or 5th perhaps by 18. Cause he put the time in, learned the morals, the ethics, etc...and he learned the adult material from the beginning. Not some watered down children are stupid martial arts. Maybe you'd have fewer children in your classroom. But the ones that you'd have would be really good, and they may move on to other martial arts and bring what they learn there back, and share it with you, and you can learn from the student. Just a few thoughts from a guy who doesn't own or run a school. Take it for what you will.:asian:


 
Well, heres where we enter a sticky situation.  Having someone ranked as a 5th or above if they're only 18, IMHO, smells of McDojo.


----------



## Doc

GBlues said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you about children learning slower. I don't care what your reasons are to say this. Your flat wrong. When your young your mind is like a sponge, it can absorg alot of things, because it's never gotten wet yet. That is just utter non-sense. Reality is you shouldn't be teaching children. I noticed you didn't answer the question about charging them for there 1st adult black belt. Why is that?
> 
> Furthermore your assumption that bb is more than just skills it is a test of maturity and mindset. I will have to disagree with you on that. IF you don't know the maturity level and mindset of your student after 6 years, you shouldn't be teaching, or you should start thinking about smaller classes so you can get a little more in depth with your students. THey shouldn't be testing even for a jr.bb if they don't have that mindset or the maturity level. THat is not teaching them the same thing as the adults. That is again a dumbing down of the art. I believe it has been said by many martial artists, that the martial arts are 90% mental and 10% physical. That is not holding them to the same standards as the adults. I just don't get it.
> 
> Now, children bb's are not why the martial arts get a bad rap. It's because they get there bb and they are not prepared to defend themselves. THe first confrontation they get into they get the snot kicked out of them, well that to a lot people says quite a bit about a martial art. They aren't properly trained. Why? Because it was more valuable to the instructor to collect $65 bucks a month and charge for the tests, and just give out belt rankings than it was to teach. That's the reality. If you train them to defend themselves for real, they will do it, and probably better than most adults. I would go so far as to say it isn't that 1000's of children around the world need a confidence booster for why they join martial arts studios. I would say it probably has more to do with, mom and dad are tired of little johnny coming home with a black eye, having not eaten all day because he got his lunch money stolen. NOw I'm done with this rant, please don't take offense. I just call it like I see it, ( or read it.). On to my next issue.
> 
> Essay questions??? THey show the understanding the student has of the art??? Again 5-6 years is a long time to spend teaching somebody something. You should know if he has an understanding of the material before he tests. That's why your the instructor and he's the student. If he doesn't you shouldn't let him test. It's beyond me. Why does it seem to me that everybody that is an instructor here feels like they have to make these tests as hard as they can possibly make them? I realize they are supposed to be hard, but my god man. How hard does it have to be?  I mean I hear stories of guys that have to run 5 miles, do 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, do all of there kata's from white belt to black, spar, and then maybe they'll pass. Unless your in the military is it necassary to run a freaking marathon before you show what you can do? "Well, they have to show they can perform under a high-stress situation." Do you train them that way? Make them do all of those things before class starts? If not why? You know these are the questions that I ask myself when I hear these things. If your going to do that, why not just learn and then teach Krav Maga you know? Alright I'm sorry guys my rant is over.



Hate to interrupt your rant sir, but from my perspective you're really not making much sense. Feel free to have an opinion as I do, but I stated my standards, and you have yours. Perhaps my curriculum is a bit more demanding than yours. While I agree with the push ups and silly excessive physical requirements of endurance, I certainly wish to maintain a high academic standard in addition to the physical demands. 

By your standard, no one should have to take an exam who comes to class everyday and answers questions in class. No need for a final exam, let's give everyone a degree, or make them lawyers without taking the bar. Doctors shouldn't test either. Wait, didn't you take an exam when you got your drivers license? Well, what I teach is a little more complex than that, so test they will academically and physically.

As far as children, I don't take them because they do not possess the academic acumen to digest, inculcate, process, and put the information I teach into physical action. I don't take them for the same reason they are in middle school, and not in a university. Everyone has standards, some lower than others.

Teachers tend to attract and produce students at the intellectual level they themselves represent. Smart people don't go to dumb teachers, and smart teachers don't want dumb students. Unfortunately, dumb teachers do produce dumb students. To each his own.


----------



## Tez3

SifuJohnson said:


> My friend, I live in the United States and though you are correct to remind me that things may be different in the UK, I would like to also remind you that people in this country see and want to emulate what they see on TV and what they see these days is the UFC and Extreme Fighting.
> 
> Perception is reality and there are many of us who feel more than a little upset because the MMA we see on TV gives people the perception that this is what martial arts is all about. I dont have the millions of dollars to promote what I do like UFC does so I am stuck with all these false perceptions generated by their advertising and events.
> 
> Many in this country who used to see the martial arts as a beneficial element now see it as a blood sport and dont want their children to be involved. There is a MMA school in my city that uses the motto If you want artbuy a paint brush. This one line alone has accomplished the destruction of an image that took decades for martial arts schools to generate.
> 
> Im glad you are doing well and that MMA in your part of the world is in a healthy state. Maybe life is a little different there and to be honest I really hope so. But if you ever get the chance to come to the States dont be so naïve as to think that what you do will be perceived as you are in Briton.
> I wish you the best.
> 
> Peaceout!


 

I'm hardly naive enought to image that what you do over there is the same, I have several friends who fight pro in the states on the big shows including UFC.

*Doc, you don't accept someone because they have dyslexia? that frankly is disgusting and one of the most awful things I've ever read. That is discrimination at it's very worse. You should be ashamed of yourself for that attitude. To say I'm shocked is the very least, you deserve absolutely no respect for that. You, sir, have no honour and no place being an instructor.*


----------



## Doc

Tez3 said:


> I'm hardly naive enought to image that what you do over there is the same, I have several friends who fight pro in the states on the big shows including UFC.
> 
> *Doc, you don't accept someone because they have dyslexia? that frankly is disgusting and one of the most awful things I've ever read. That is discrimination at it's very worse. You should be ashamed of yourself for that attitude. To say I'm shocked is the very least, you deserve absolutely no respect for that. You, sir, have no honour and no place being an instructor.*



That's political correct nonsense. What makes you think that because I choose to teach, that I automatically must make my labor available to anyone that wants it?

Suppose they have no arms, or perhaps no legs. What if they mentally "challenged?" They don't fit my curriculum standards. They are not taught by me for the same reason that many don't get into the university they want to attend, or qualify for a loan, or are not hired by a company, or can't be police, a doctor, or lawyer. 

If I own a gun shop, should I sell a gun to everyone that comes in, or should I be discriminating? Have you got every job you ever applied for, or did they turn you down because they wanted someone different? Hell, they have exclusive night clubs that don't let everyone in unless they meet their standards. People flunk their drivers license test and don't get a license. Everything in this world has a standard. If they don't lie the way you're dressed you can get kicked out of a restaurant. If a freeking cab driver doesn't like your looks he won't stop. 

Those that can't get into UCLA, go to Cal State University, and those that can't get in there go to a community college. There is an institution, or entity at every level that will take those that fit their curriculum, service, or standard. I don't take them for the same reason you can't go into a "gentlemen's club." You don't fit the standard, and neither do they. I bet you've turned down more than one guy who asked for your phone number, or wanted to dance, or tried to steal a kiss. Why?

I don't do physically, mentally handicapped, and I don't do kids because the material is over their heads. And as long and I am the teacher, I'll decide who I should teach, not you, or anyone else. Sorry, but in America, that's just how we roll. Get your head out of  -  the clouds, and put your feet on the ground. I've never heard of anyone that I wouldn't teach, who couldn't find someone who would. They have the absolute right to learn somewhere, but they don't have a right to learn from me. I decide. End of discussion.


----------



## GBlues

First of all in my first post I meant what I said about not running a school. At my level I wouldn't dream of running a school. However, I'm not a stupid man, and I do try not to be rude. I may be from time to time, but do make an honest attempt not to be. So with that being said I do apologize twin fist. However,I personally do not see how somebody can say, " I teach the children the same thing I do the adults, but until there 16 they can not test for an adult black belt. They are jr. and that is all." Well, if your teaching the same material, then there getting the same "deadly" techniques at jr. black belt, that they are going to get at adult black belt. SO why the difference in designation? They technically from what you've said twin are the same. That's was my problem and the question about the testing fees with that. Have had bad experiences with belt tests, I won't go into it here, other than that it does make me feel much better, that at least you, and I know some of the other guys at least have scruples you know.

Now on to the next guys post. Doc I like you man. Have read some of your other posts on here, and your very knowledgeable. I will have to personally take up the issue of final exams. No, I am not saying that there should not be a final exam. There absolutely should be. I personally feel that if a student has demonstrated.....better yet I'll put it a different way. If I haven't shown an understanding of the material, by the time I reach the point to test for black belt. I should NOT be testing. If I ask about it, or approach my instructor I personally expect an honest answer, " Man, Nick, you aint ready. You need more time, you got a lot to learn." YOu know what I mean. I do not expect him to say, " Well here's a 30 question essay test you have to take first to show me that you know and understand the material." What I do expect is that when I'm ready he will approach me and say, " Hey, Nick, you know over the course of the last couple of years you've demonstrated that you understand the concepts and principals of the art here. You clearly understand the philosophy it's probably time that you start thinking about taking your black belt test." I've always kind of been under the impression that it's the instructor that says, " Hey if you think your ready, your more than welcome to test at the next test." Cause' he wouldn't have approached me and said that if he didn't feel that I was. However, from my experience that I've seen you don't approach the instructor. So if you think the guys ready, you already know, that he has an understanding of it. He understands the philosophies and the concepts, and the principals that drive that art. He's not simply a machine performing movements, he's ready to learn the deeper understandings of it. That's my point. The other thing being that while martial arts may be more complex than driving a car. It most certainly is not more deadly. You get your drivers license at 16 where I'm from and it qualifies you to drive a 2 ton weapon, and your doing it at 75-80 mph sometimes. Beyond that you get your permit at 15 years and 7 months to start learning how to drive. 3 months later, your driving alone and by yourself. Kind of a bad analogy. Furthermore doctors should take a test also. Big difference with them also. When they screw up somebody else dies. In martial arts when you screw up, you might die. You know what I'm saying. Last but not least. I don't know if you know what dyslexia is or not. So I'm going to inform you. Dyslexia is a mental disorder that causes some people to read certain letters backwards. Example a, b to them looks like a d, and  a p looks like a q. Ok? They're not retards. They look and act very much like you and I, and from looking at them you can not tell the difference. YOu may actually have some dyslexic students and not even know it. YOur welcome.

Ok on to the next person that replied to my post, ( I'm sure not making any friends today, I'll tell ya that much. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





), MJS.  Ok I absolutely think that a 7 year old can retain that information. Imagine all the things that you had to retain even just when you were 3. If you really think about it, quite a bit. There is no reason for why a child can not retain those things. Unless he a) chooses not too, b) doesn't want to be there to begin with, c) does not practice d) is taught to much at one time, or e) is just flat out mentally disabled. Ok a child that learns 1 or 2 techniques a day, or even a week can very easily retain that. That is not too much to ask from anybody. My freaking dog if trained right, can remember that much.

No we probably like many other martial artists won't see another ER for a long time. That is not to say that it is not possible.

As far as the McDojo thing goes. Look, my point being is that if the kid is up to the same standards as the adults, and is one of those ER type of kids. Loves Martial ARts, practices all the time, flat out lives, breathes, eats, craps, and sleeps martial arts. Then yeah if he learned the same material is held to the same high standards, potentially, if he started at say 3, and got his first black belt at 10, that's only seven years. He potentially could be a 2nd or third degree blackbelt, when he goes to test at 18. He'd have been doing it for 15 years. 4th or 5th was a little high, but I just threw it out there as a point of consideration. He's already got more experience than most of your current students would have by the time he reached 18. Yet, for some reason, it's ok to take that away from him, because he wasn't 18 when he got his first bb. That doesn't sound right, nor just in my mind. If he has put in the work, and has the skills, and is capable of receiveing the level of bb should he not, if he's earned it, keep and continue on in that effort if he so chooses? Furthermore, if a child does not have maturity, and capacity to understand what he's doing, why is he getting even a jr. bb? Shouldn't a jr. bb if he is held to the same standards, have the same moral, and ethical knowledge for his age as an adult? If not, is  he really even a jr. bb? See my point? I don't know if I make any sense at all. But I'm trying to get my feelings on the matter out there in a way you guys can understand what I'm trying to say.

I guess what I am in essence saying is that if your going to have a jr. blackbelt, they need to be a blackbelt. If they aren't then don't give jr. blackbelts. I think that is what I'm trying to say. Not that you guys shouldn't but maybe more in general. ANyways I'm tired So, laters.


----------



## GBlues

Doc said:


> That's political correct nonsense. What makes you think that because I choose to teach, that I automatically must make my labor available to anyone that wants it?
> 
> Suppose they have no arms, or perhaps no legs. What if they mentally "challenged?" They don't fit my curriculum standards. They are not taught by me for the same reason that many don't get into the university they want to attend, or qualify for a loan, or are not hired by a company, or can't be police, a doctor, or lawyer.
> 
> If I own a gun shop, should I sell a gun to everyone that comes in, or should I be discriminating? Have you got every job you ever applied for, or did they turn you down because they wanted someone different? Hell, they have exclusive night clubs that don't let everyone in unless they meet their standards. People flunk their drivers license test and don't get a license. Everything in this world has a standard. If they don't lie the way you're dressed you can get kicked out of a restaurant. If a freeking cab driver doesn't like your looks he won't stop.
> 
> Those that can't get into UCLA, go to Cal State University, and those that can't get in there go to a community college. There is an institution, or entity at every level that will take those that fit their curriculum, service, or standard. I don't take them for the same reason you can't go into a "gentlemen's club." You don't fit the standard, and neither do they. I bet you've turned down more than one guy who asked for your phone number, or wanted to dance, or tried to steal a kiss. Why?
> 
> I don't do physically, mentally handicapped, and I don't do kids because the material is over their heads. And as long and I am the teacher, I'll decide who I should teach, not you, or anyone else. Sorry, but in America, that's just how we roll. Get your head out of - the clouds, and put your feet on the ground. I've never heard of anyone that I wouldn't teach, who couldn't find someone who would. They have the absolute right to learn somewhere, but they don't have a right to learn from me. I decide. End of discussion.


 
Last post was wrong. You sir, are ignorant! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If I offended....well in an unpollitically correct world I would have to tell you tough ****.


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## Doc

GBlues said:


> First of all in my first post I meant what I said about not running a school. At my level I wouldn't dream of running a school. However, I'm not a stupid man, and I do try not to be rude. I may be from time to time, but do make an honest attempt not to be. So with that being said I do apologize twin fist. However,I personally do not see how somebody can say, " I teach the children the same thing I do the adults, but until there 16 they can not test for an adult black belt. They are jr. and that is all." Well, if your teaching the same material, then there getting the same "deadly" techniques at jr. black belt, that they are going to get at adult black belt. SO why the difference in designation? They technically from what you've said twin are the same. That's was my problem and the question about the testing fees with that. Have had bad experiences with belt tests, I won't go into it here, other than that it does make me feel much better, that at least you, and I know some of the other guys at least have scruples you know.
> 
> Now on to the next guys post. Doc I like you man. Have read some of your other posts on here, and your very knowledgeable. I will have to personally take up the issue of final exams. No, I am not saying that there should not be a final exam. There absolutely should be. I personally feel that if a student has demonstrated.....better yet I'll put it a different way. If I haven't shown an understanding of the material, by the time I reach the point to test for black belt. I should NOT be testing. If I ask about it, or approach my instructor I personally expect an honest answer, " Man, Nick, you aint ready. You need more time, you got a lot to learn." YOu know what I mean. I do not expect him to say, " Well here's a 30 question essay test you have to take first to show me that you know and understand the material." What I do expect is that when I'm ready he will approach me and say, " Hey, Nick, you know over the course of the last couple of years you've demonstrated that you understand the concepts and principals of the art here. You clearly understand the philosophy it's probably time that you start thinking about taking your black belt test." I've always kind of been under the impression that it's the instructor that says, " Hey if you think your ready, your more than welcome to test at the next test." Cause' he wouldn't have approached me and said that if he didn't feel that I was. However, from my experience that I've seen you don't approach the instructor. So if you think the guys ready, you already know, that he has an understanding of it. He understands the philosophies and the concepts, and the principals that drive that art. He's not simply a machine performing movements, he's ready to learn the deeper understandings of it. That's my point. The other thing being that while martial arts may be more complex than driving a car. It most certainly is not more deadly. You get your drivers license at 16 where I'm from and it qualifies you to drive a 2 ton weapon, and your doing it at 75-80 mph sometimes. Beyond that you get your permit at 15 years and 7 months to start learning how to drive. 3 months later, your driving alone and by yourself. Kind of a bad analogy. Furthermore doctors should take a test also. Big difference with them also. When they screw up somebody else dies. In martial arts when you screw up, you might die. You know what I'm saying. Last but not least. I don't know if you know what dyslexia is or not. So I'm going to inform you. Dyslexia is a mental disorder that causes some people to read certain letters backwards. Example a, b to them looks like a d, and  a p looks like a q. Ok? They're not retards. They look and act very much like you and I, and from looking at them you can not tell the difference. YOu may actually have some dyslexic students and not even know it. YOur welcome.
> 
> Ok on to the next person that replied to my post, ( I'm sure not making any friends today, I'll tell ya that much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), MJS.  Ok I absolutely think that a 7 year old can retain that information. Imagine all the things that you had to retain even just when you were 3. If you really think about it, quite a bit. There is no reason for why a child can not retain those things. Unless he a) chooses not too, b) doesn't want to be there to begin with, c) does not practice d) is taught to much at one time, or e) is just flat out mentally disabled. Ok a child that learns 1 or 2 techniques a day, or even a week can very easily retain that. That is not too much to ask from anybody. My freaking dog if trained right, can remember that much.
> 
> No we probably like many other martial artists won't see another ER for a long time. That is not to say that it is not possible.
> 
> As far as the McDojo thing goes. Look, my point being is that if the kid is up to the same standards as the adults, and is one of those ER type of kids. Loves Martial ARts, practices all the time, flat out lives, breathes, eats, craps, and sleeps martial arts. Then yeah if he learned the same material is held to the same high standards, potentially, if he started at say 3, and got his first black belt at 10, that's only seven years. He potentially could be a 2nd or third degree blackbelt, when he goes to test at 18. He'd have been doing it for 15 years. 4th or 5th was a little high, but I just threw it out there as a point of consideration. He's already got more experience than most of your current students would have by the time he reached 18. Yet, for some reason, it's ok to take that away from him, because he wasn't 18 when he got his first bb. That doesn't sound right, nor just in my mind. If he has put in the work, and has the skills, and is capable of receiveing the level of bb should he not, if he's earned it, keep and continue on in that effort if he so chooses? Furthermore, if a child does not have maturity, and capacity to understand what he's doing, why is he getting even a jr. bb? Shouldn't a jr. bb if he is held to the same standards, have the same moral, and ethical knowledge for his age as an adult? If not, is  he really even a jr. bb? See my point? I don't know if I make any sense at all. But I'm trying to get my feelings on the matter out there in a way you guys can understand what I'm trying to say.
> 
> I guess what I am in essence saying is that if your going to have a jr. blackbelt, they need to be a blackbelt. If they aren't then don't give jr. blackbelts. I think that is what I'm trying to say. Not that you guys shouldn't but maybe more in general. ANyways I'm tired So, laters.


Well if you put it that way -   I think we agree.  I do the same with all my students. You may ask to test, but if I don't think you can pass, I say no, you're not ready. I don't have a kid problem, because I don't teach children.


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## Doc

GBlues said:


> Last post was wrong. You sir, are ignorant!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I offended....well in an unpollitically correct world I would have to tell you tough ****.



Well, I get it from my teacher. There's people he refused to Teach as well. And if you tell me you never been turned down, or away from something you wanted, I'd find that hard to believe. But then, I'm ignorant, and if you didn't understand the perspective I carefully articulated, than perhaps you should wear the title as well. I don't do politically correct. Not my thing. I put my time into teaching the best I can, making my students the best I can.


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## MJS

GBlues said:


> Ok on to the next person that replied to my post, ( I'm sure not making any friends today, I'll tell ya that much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), MJS. Ok I absolutely think that a 7 year old can retain that information. Imagine all the things that you had to retain even just when you were 3. If you really think about it, quite a bit. There is no reason for why a child can not retain those things. Unless he a) chooses not too, b) doesn't want to be there to begin with, c) does not practice d) is taught to much at one time, or e) is just flat out mentally disabled. Ok a child that learns 1 or 2 techniques a day, or even a week can very easily retain that. That is not too much to ask from anybody. My freaking dog if trained right, can remember that much.


 
First off, I believe you and I have had some good discussion in the past.  I'm not holding anything you say against you personally.   As for the rest...like I said, there are always exceptions to the rule, IMHO, however, the number will be a small percentage.  I would think that things need to be done in order, from least difficult working up to most difficult.  Look at how simple the beginning techs and kata are, vs. more advanced techs/kata.  I wouldn't expect a 7yr old to do advanced math if they have not even got the basics down yet.  Additionally, things need to be constantly re-enforced.  IIRC, I mentioned this in an earlier post.  The parents need to play an active roll in their childs training.



> No we probably like many other martial artists won't see another ER for a long time. That is not to say that it is not possible.


 
Agreed.  



> As far as the McDojo thing goes. Look, my point being is that if the kid is up to the same standards as the adults, and is one of those ER type of kids. Loves Martial ARts, practices all the time, flat out lives, breathes, eats, craps, and sleeps martial arts. Then yeah if he learned the same material is held to the same high standards, potentially, if he started at say 3, and got his first black belt at 10, that's only seven years. He potentially could be a 2nd or third degree blackbelt, when he goes to test at 18. He'd have been doing it for 15 years. 4th or 5th was a little high, but I just threw it out there as a point of consideration. He's already got more experience than most of your current students would have by the time he reached 18. Yet, for some reason, it's ok to take that away from him, because he wasn't 18 when he got his first bb. That doesn't sound right, nor just in my mind. If he has put in the work, and has the skills, and is capable of receiveing the level of bb should he not, if he's earned it, keep and continue on in that effort if he so chooses? Furthermore, if a child does not have maturity, and capacity to understand what he's doing, why is he getting even a jr. bb? Shouldn't a jr. bb if he is held to the same standards, have the same moral, and ethical knowledge for his age as an adult? If not, is he really even a jr. bb? See my point? I don't know if I make any sense at all. But I'm trying to get my feelings on the matter out there in a way you guys can understand what I'm trying to say.
> 
> I guess what I am in essence saying is that if your going to have a jr. blackbelt, they need to be a blackbelt. If they aren't then don't give jr. blackbelts. I think that is what I'm trying to say. Not that you guys shouldn't but maybe more in general. ANyways I'm tired So, laters.


 
Interestingly enough, there have been many times, when I'd show someone a basic tech, walk away for 10min, come back, ask to see it, and they have a hard time.  Many times we see kids involved in a bunch of different activities.  If 10 kids took a break for the Summer, how many would you honestly say would really put in alot of effort over that time to train?  All 10?  Half?  A few?  Keep in mind, they have the choice between training and, the swimming pool, camping trips, sleepovers at a friends, vacations.  Who is going to train when they're at Disney or cruising the ocean to Aruba?


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## terryl965

I believe this converstation has been productive in one way getting people opinions and I mean opinions.Let me say this when we see Tigr Woods drive a ball 350 yards at the age od 8, everyone says prodigy, when we see a gymnis that can compete at the age of 8 we call them prodigies. When we see a student that is 8 and is in high school they ar prodigies. When we see an 8 year old write there first musical they two are prodigies, but yet a 8 year old is unable to learn everything to be a junior BB interesting. Notice I never said be able to defend themself with a full grown adult. There are always goingro be those that can achieve a high standard even thought they are eight, no not every single child can recieved a BB at that age bit there are some. I know plenty of adult BB that could never protect themself ina real fight, but yet they are BB. I do not recall a BB having ro be able to defens even though that is suppose to be. A BB means they have learned the mateials for that rank, if it was about fighting then they would need to get the **** kick out of them before and during every singlew test. Like alot of you ahve said in other threads people train for different reason some for fitness and some for family time and then those looking foe SD and also remember alot of you said that 98 percent of these people will never ever see any real life SD. So why are we so hung up on the title Junior BB?


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## Brian R. VanCise

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Assistant Administrator-*


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## MJS

To further expand on this post from GBlues:



> As far as the McDojo thing goes. Look, my point being is that if the kid is up to the same standards as the adults, and is one of those ER type of kids. Loves Martial ARts, practices all the time, flat out lives, breathes, eats, craps, and sleeps martial arts. Then yeah if he learned the same material is held to the same high standards, potentially, if he started at say 3, and got his first black belt at 10, that's only seven years. He potentially could be a 2nd or third degree blackbelt, when he goes to test at 18. He'd have been doing it for 15 years. 4th or 5th was a little high, but I just threw it out there as a point of consideration. He's already got more experience than most of your current students would have by the time he reached 18. Yet, for some reason, it's ok to take that away from him, because he wasn't 18 when he got his first bb. That doesn't sound right, nor just in my mind. If he has put in the work, and has the skills, and is capable of receiveing the level of bb should he not, if he's earned it, keep and continue on in that effort if he so chooses? Furthermore, if a child does not have maturity, and capacity to understand what he's doing, why is he getting even a jr. bb? Shouldn't a jr. bb if he is held to the same standards, have the same moral, and ethical knowledge for his age as an adult? If not, is he really even a jr. bb? See my point? I don't know if I make any sense at all. But I'm trying to get my feelings on the matter out there in a way you guys can understand what I'm trying to say.
> 
> I guess what I am in essence saying is that if your going to have a jr. blackbelt, they need to be a blackbelt. If they aren't then don't give jr. blackbelts. I think that is what I'm trying to say. Not that you guys shouldn't but maybe more in general. ANyways I'm tired So, laters.


 
If I walked into a school and saw a 16yr old 5th degree, I'd laugh and walk the hell out.  By the time that kid is 30, he'll be a 10th degree.  People ohh and ahh over high rank. Why?  Who cares.  I want to see what that person can do.  I'm interested in their skill.  If the child starts at 4 and is 'ready' for a BB by 10, give them the Jr BB instead.  Use varying levels of that until they're ready for a full black.  

Again, compare the clips I posted.  Who do you think is more deserving of a Jr BB....the first clip, or the kids in the Kajukenbo clip?  I'm going with the Kaju clip.  The kid in the first clip is not worthy of a brown belt, never mind a jr bb.  No power, no stances, I'm sorry, he looked awful, and if I was sitting on that panel, I'd fail him.


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## Twin Fist

I would say that until you are a school owner, and are in the position of having to teach kids every day you have no freaking clue about the subject.

Hell, till the 60's, NO ONE even taught kids, for lots of legit reasons.

Doc can refuse to teach kids and say it is because "children are not muture enough to handle MA training" and that puts him in the tradition of most of our legendary Grandmasters.

I will not promote anyone under 16 to the rank of 1st degree BB

ever

the can get a Jr BB, and retest at 16, if someone else doesnt like that, they can go down to the local belt factory and take thier kids there


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## hongkongfooey

I have to agree with Doc. The PC bullshido that has been crammed down our throats has no place in a martial arts school. Political correctness has done nothing but create a bunch of entitlement babies that believe they deserve something just for showing up. It's not just in Martial Arts, look around at society in general. God forbid someone actually have to put in real hard work to achieve a goal.


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## Steve

Doc said:


> That's political correct nonsense. What makes you think that because I choose to teach, that I automatically must make my labor available to anyone that wants it?
> 
> Suppose they have no arms, or perhaps no legs. What if they mentally "challenged?" They don't fit my curriculum standards. They are not taught by me for the same reason that many don't get into the university they want to attend, or qualify for a loan, or are not hired by a company, or can't be police, a doctor, or lawyer.
> 
> If I own a gun shop, should I sell a gun to everyone that comes in, or should I be discriminating? Have you got every job you ever applied for, or did they turn you down because they wanted someone different? Hell, they have exclusive night clubs that don't let everyone in unless they meet their standards. People flunk their drivers license test and don't get a license. Everything in this world has a standard. If they don't lie the way you're dressed you can get kicked out of a restaurant. If a freeking cab driver doesn't like your looks he won't stop.
> 
> Those that can't get into UCLA, go to Cal State University, and those that can't get in there go to a community college. There is an institution, or entity at every level that will take those that fit their curriculum, service, or standard. I don't take them for the same reason you can't go into a "gentlemen's club." You don't fit the standard, and neither do they. I bet you've turned down more than one guy who asked for your phone number, or wanted to dance, or tried to steal a kiss. Why?
> 
> I don't do physically, mentally handicapped, and I don't do kids because the material is over their heads. And as long and I am the teacher, I'll decide who I should teach, not you, or anyone else. Sorry, but in America, that's just how we roll. Get your head out of  -  the clouds, and put your feet on the ground. I've never heard of anyone that I wouldn't teach, who couldn't find someone who would. They have the absolute right to learn somewhere, but they don't have a right to learn from me. I decide. End of discussion.


I just want to say that you might be opening yourself up to a lawsuit you would lose.  While we are free in this country to discriminate on almost any citeria we choose, there are protected categories and disability is one.  Saying you won't accept someone without an arm is functionally no different than saying you won't teach a woman or a caucasian.  If you have a private club you might get away with it, but if you run a for-profit business, you could be asking for trouble.

I'm no lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express.    Seriously, though, and I know this advise will probably be ignored, if I were you, I'd consult my own attorny to find out if my admissions criteria is illegal.  It sounds so based upon my experience.  Again, though, I'm not an expert.


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## Tez3

I hope you know what dyslexia is? It's not an illness or a physical/mental handicap, it's the inability to see letters and words properly, people with it aren't disabled nor are they mentally handicapped for crying out loud! Schools, colleges and universities take people with dsylexia in all the time, the only difference is they usaully dictate their work and have it typed up for them. How on earth does that affect people with the condition wanting to train in martial arts? Do you stop people who are colour blind, short sighted, long sighted training too?

people with dyslexia include:
Nelson Rockefeller
Cher
Thomas Edison
FW Woolworth
George Patton
Walt Disney
Winston Churchill
Albert Einstein
Tom Cruise
Agatha Christie
George Washington
Stonewall Jackson
Alexander Graham Bell  and a few millions others.

Political correctness my ****, ignorance more like.


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## hongkongfooey

Tez3 said:


> I hope you know what dyslexia is? It's not an illness or a physical/mental handicap, it's the inability to see letters and words properly, people with it aren't disabled nor are they mentally handicapped for crying out loud! Schools, colleges and universities take people with dsylexia in all the time, the only difference is they usaully dictate their work and have it typed up for them. How on earth does that affect people with the condition wanting to train in martial arts? Do you stop people who are colour blind, short sighted, long sighted training too?
> 
> people with dyslexia include:
> Nelson Rockefeller
> Cher
> Thomas Edison
> FW Woolworth
> George Patton
> Walt Disney
> Winston Churchill
> Albert Einstein
> Tom Cruise
> Agatha Christie
> George Washington
> Stonewall Jackson
> Alexander Graham Bell and a few millions others.
> 
> Political correctness my ****, ignorance more like.


 
Who was this directed at?


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## Tez3

hongkongfooey said:


> Who was this directed at?


 
To anyone who thinks it's being politically correct to 'allow' people with dyslexia to train in martial arts, to anyone who thinks dyslexia is an illness or a handicap or a disability. To anyone who has the mistaken idea that the millions of people who have dyslexia are inferior. To the arrogant and the dismissive, to the prats who think the inability to read and write is a pyhsical or mental handicap, to the plonkers who spout arrant nonsense about something they seem to know little about.

That answer the question?

Ps it's not a mental disorder either.


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## Steve

I'm curious.  What would happen if a long time student, say, deployed to Iraq and lost use of an arm.  Would he be removed from the school?

This is an interesting twist to the thread.  While I think that it's critical that kids have a venue to train, I can also see Doc's point in that there is a place for having schools for kids and schools for advanced study.  Makes sense to me.

But even accredited universities have to obey the law, and while your school looks very impressive, I'm pretty sure it's not accredited and qualifies squarely as a business and not an educational institution.  

But for this discussion, I guess what's relevant is _should_ you be able to.  The extension of this line of reasoning from having age appropriate curriculums to suggesting that a school owner can refuse service based upon protected categories doesn't sound right to me.  To me, denying someone the ability to train based upon a disability is as wrong as denying someone the ability to train based upon their religion.

One qualifier here is to distinguish between training and advancing.  I intend to train in BJJ as long as I can.  I may never get a black belt, as I may never be able to meet the relatively rigid qualifications for that rank.  That doesn't mean I can't train.  If someone who, say, has dyslexia, cannot meet an objective standard for rank, so be it.  Denying them entrance based strictly upon a medically recognized impairment is very different.  A retail store can't deny access to people who are in wheelchairs, for example.  In fact, where "reasonable," businesses are actually required to modify their existing policies to accomodate people with disabilities.  A very common example of this is a no-pets policy.  30 years ago, many stores, restuarants and other businesses refused to allow animals on the premises.  Now, seeing eye dogs are allowed in order to accomadate visually impaired people.

Tez, in the states under the American's with Disabilities Act, dyslexia may very well be covered depending upon the specific circumstances of the situation.  It's never cut and dry.  It can be medically diagnosed.  

There are a lot of myths and misunderstandings about the ADA and employment, but the long and the short of it is that it protects people with disabilities from access to services and employment based not upon their individual abilities, but on blanket policy to discriminate.


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## hongkongfooey

Tez3 said:


> To anyone who thinks it's being politically correct to 'allow' people with dyslexia to train in martial arts, to anyone who thinks dyslexia is an illness or a handicap or a disability. To anyone who has the mistaken idea that the millions of people who have dyslexia are inferior. To the arrogant and the dismissive, to the prats who think the inability to read and write is a pyhsical or mental handicap, to the plonkers who spout arrant nonsense about something they seem to know little about.
> 
> That answer the question?
> 
> Ps it's not a mental disorder either.


 
Well, I don't know of anyone that considers Dyslexia as a handicap or a mental disorder. I don't believe that Doc does either.


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## Doc

stevebjj said:


> I just want to say that you might be opening yourself up to a lawsuit you would lose.  While we are free in this country to discriminate on almost any citeria we choose, there are protected categories and disability is one.  Saying you won't accept someone without an arm is functionally no different than saying you won't teach a woman or a caucasian.  If you have a private club you might get away with it, but if you run a for-profit business, you could be asking for trouble.
> 
> I'm no lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express.    Seriously, though, and I know this advise will probably be ignored, if I were you, I'd consult my own attorny to find out if my admissions criteria is illegal.  It sounds so based upon my experience.  Again, though, I'm not an expert.


I have 5 attorney black belts, and one of them is on this forum. I am under no obligation to teach anyone I do not want to teach. No one has a right to my labor. I am allowed to set standards. I do not run a studio business, I run a "school." There are plenty of places that will babysit kids, take the handicapped, criminals, and people who just want to hang out. I don't do political correct. It produces the lowest common denominator that doesn't serve my teachers real art.

Thanks for looking out sir I appreciate it.


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## terryl965

Doc said:


> I have 5 attorney black belts, and one of them is on this forum. I am under no obligation to teach anyone I do not want to teach. No one has a right to my labor. I am allowed to set standards. I do not run a studio business, I run a "school." There are plenty of places that will babysit kids, take the handicapped, criminals, and people who just want to hang out. I don't do political correct. It produces the lowest common denominator that doesn't serve my teachers real art.
> 
> Thanks for looking out sir I appreciate it.


 
Doc you are right you are able to teach who and what you would like to. Remember anybody can sue over anything whether they are right or wrong, society gives them that right. Just has you have the right to refuse your services to anyone. This is something that all of us need to remember.


----------



## Doc

stevebjj said:


> I'm curious.  What would happen if a long time student, say, deployed to Iraq and lost use of an arm.  Would he be removed from the school?
> 
> This is an interesting twist to the thread.  While I think that it's critical that kids have a venue to train, I can also see Doc's point in that there is a place for having schools for kids and schools for advanced study.  Makes sense to me.
> 
> But even accredited universities have to obey the law, and while your school looks very impressive, I'm pretty sure it's not accredited and qualifies squarely as a business and not an educational institution.
> 
> But for this discussion, I guess what's relevant is _should_ you be able to.  The extension of this line of reasoning from having age appropriate curriculums to suggesting that a school owner can refuse service based upon protected categories doesn't sound right to me.  To me, denying someone the ability to train based upon a disability is as wrong as denying someone the ability to train based upon their religion.
> 
> One qualifier here is to distinguish between training and advancing.  I intend to train in BJJ as long as I can.  I may never get a black belt, as I may never be able to meet the relatively rigid qualifications for that rank.  That doesn't mean I can't train.  If someone who, say, has dyslexia, cannot meet an objective standard for rank, so be it.  Denying them entrance based strictly upon a medically recognized impairment is very different.  A retail store can't deny access to people who are in wheelchairs, for example.  In fact, where "reasonable," businesses are actually required to modify their existing policies to accomodate people with disabilities.  A very common example of this is a no-pets policy.  30 years ago, many stores, restuarants and other businesses refused to allow animals on the premises.  Now, seeing eye dogs are allowed in order to accomadate visually impaired people.
> 
> Tez, in the states under the American's with Disabilities Act, dyslexia may very well be covered depending upon the specific circumstances of the situation.  It's never cut and dry.  It can be medically diagnosed.
> 
> There are a lot of myths and misunderstandings about the ADA and employment, but the long and the short of it is that it protects people with disabilities from access to services and employment based not upon their individual abilities, but on blanket policy to discriminate.


My nephew is dyslexic. He has a master degree, played football, and his team won the Rose Bowl. He's currently employed as a police officer. he's one of my blue belts. It's all about meeting the standard. Even so, I discriminate against children, criminals and others. I won't take anyone who doesn't meet the standards. Yes I discriminate, just like you probably won't find people in wheel chairs in a TKD studio. You can't buy alcohol until you reach a certain age. You can't get a drivers license, you can't be a cop. Age discrimination? Yes, because they don't meet the standard, etc. The political correct world is blowing a fuse. "How could you?" Problem is, everyone does it everyday. they just won't say it.


----------



## Doc

terryl965 said:


> Doc you are right you are able to teach who and what you would like to. Remember anybody can sue over anything whether they are right or wrong, society gives them that right. Just has you have the right to refuse your services to anyone. This is something that all of us need to remember.


I agree obviously sir. Political correct bullies did the same thing to my teacher because there were no women in the school in the old days. When they came to the classes and took one look at the blood on the floor, and the guys sweating and bruised, they left. He didn't keep them out, the standards of training did.

In California these same bullies are pushing for more women on the police departments, "just because" they say women are underrepresented. How is that? If women want to join, they should be able to join, but they should meet the standards like everyone else because lives are involved. Many can't, so what do they do? Lower the freeking standards so they can meet political goals, not actual. Cops are political footballs. The fire departments have physical standards most women can't meet either, but they don't lower their standards and there are few women firefighters, as it should be.


----------



## terryl965

Doc said:


> I agree obviously sir. Political correct bullies did the same thing to my teacher because there were no women in the school in the old days. When they came to the classes and took one look at the blood on the floor, and the guys sweating and bruised, they left. He didn't keep them out, the standards of training did.
> 
> In California these same bullies are pushing for more women on the police departments, "just because" they say women are underrepresented. How is that? If women want to join, they should be able to join, but they should meet the standards like everyone else because lives are involved. Many can't, so what do they do? Lower the freeking standards so they can meet political goals, not actual. Cops are political footballs. The fire departments have physical standards most women can't meet either, but they don't lower their standards and there are few women firefighters, as it should be.


 I agree totally with what you are saying.


----------



## Doc

stevebjj said:


> I'm curious.  What would happen if a long time student, say, deployed to Iraq and lost use of an arm.  Would he be removed from the school?
> 
> This is an interesting twist to the thread.  While I think that it's critical that kids have a venue to train, I can also see Doc's point in that there is a place for having schools for kids and schools for advanced study.  Makes sense to me.
> 
> But even accredited universities have to obey the law, and while your school looks very impressive, I'm pretty sure it's not accredited and qualifies squarely as a business and not an educational institution.
> 
> But for this discussion, I guess what's relevant is _should_ you be able to.  The extension of this line of reasoning from having age appropriate curriculums to suggesting that a school owner can refuse service based upon protected categories doesn't sound right to me.  To me, denying someone the ability to train based upon a disability is as wrong as denying someone the ability to train based upon their religion.
> 
> One qualifier here is to distinguish between training and advancing.  I intend to train in BJJ as long as I can.  I may never get a black belt, as I may never be able to meet the relatively rigid qualifications for that rank.  That doesn't mean I can't train.  If someone who, say, has dyslexia, cannot meet an objective standard for rank, so be it.  Denying them entrance based strictly upon a medically recognized impairment is very different.  A retail store can't deny access to people who are in wheelchairs, for example.  In fact, where "reasonable," businesses are actually required to modify their existing policies to accomodate people with disabilities.  A very common example of this is a no-pets policy.  30 years ago, many stores, restuarants and other businesses refused to allow animals on the premises.  Now, seeing eye dogs are allowed in order to accomadate visually impaired people.
> 
> Tez, in the states under the American's with Disabilities Act, dyslexia may very well be covered depending upon the specific circumstances of the situation.  It's never cut and dry.  It can be medically diagnosed.
> 
> There are a lot of myths and misunderstandings about the ADA and employment, but the long and the short of it is that it protects people with disabilities from access to services and employment based not upon their individual abilities, but on blanket policy to discriminate.


All of your points are well taken and thought out. But there is difference between denying someone access to McDonald's, and training in a specific curriculum designed for a particular type of individual. The question is, will this person be harmed by not be able to train in what is essential a luxury activity, that only a small percentage of the population is interested in. There are no entitlements attached. You may have a right to McDonald's, but you don't a right to a particular curriculum whose standards you cannot meet, when there are a plethora of other entities that will meet and accept your needs gladly.


----------



## Doc

Tez3 said:


> To anyone who thinks it's being politically correct to 'allow' people with dyslexia to train in martial arts, to anyone who thinks dyslexia is an illness or a handicap or a disability. To anyone who has the mistaken idea that the millions of people who have dyslexia are inferior. To the arrogant and the dismissive, to the prats who think the inability to read and write is a pyhsical or mental handicap, to the plonkers who spout arrant nonsense about something they seem to know little about.
> 
> That answer the question?
> 
> Ps it's not a mental disorder either.



Those are your words. I never said any of that. I said I have a standard, that everyone must meet. Those that meet the standard AND have the characteristics that demonstrate they can benefit from the instruction and atmosphere of an educational institution, and not be detrimental to the educational process, are welcome. Yeah, I know what it is, and Cher wouldn't be able to study with us either for different reasons. The cool thing is all of those people manage to be successful, without studying martial arts, with me. I think its great, that someone's success or failure doesn't depend upon little old me. One day I'm going to die - then what would they do? All of this I'm sure from someone who has turned down a guy or two for not meeting their arbitrary standards.


----------



## Twin Fist

Doc said:


> The fire departments have physical standards most women can't meet either, but they don't lower their standards and there are few women firefighters, as it should be.



actually, the textbook method for taking someone out of a fire changed from the "fireman's carry" to the "heel drag" for that very reason, because women couldnt do the fireman's carry


----------



## Doc

Twin Fist said:


> actually, the textbook method for taking someone out of a fire changed from the "fireman's carry" to the "heel drag" for that very reason, because women couldnt do the fireman's carry



I have another nephew who is a Los Angeles Firefighter. They haven't "adjusted" their standards, and have few women. The ones they have, you wouldn't mind working with them. The majority of firefighters in this country are volunteer, so It wouldn't surprise me that some have relaxed a few standards here and there. But, I wouldn't go into a burning building with an "affirmative action" firefighter if my life depended on it  -  cause it does.


----------



## Twin Fist

yeah i dont know about LA, but a lot of departments have changed.


----------



## Doc

stevebjj said:


> I'm curious.  What would happen if a long time student, say, deployed to Iraq and lost use of an arm.  Would he be removed from the school?



Sorry sir, just realized that I didn't respond to one of your inquiries. If one of my long time students were return from military service with a missing limb, they would be welcome as all my returning student have been. He would still be a member of the student body, and not an entering freshman student. He would have served myself, the institution, and our country well, and in no way would he be penalized for that.

As a matter of course, like many institutions, student body members take breaks and return. I recently had a student who had taken a 9 year hiatus to get married and have children.

He phoned in and made an appointment, had a re-entering interview, and had the required class audit session. He than showed up for attendance with a white belt and began class again. The white belt was his choice. 

After three weeks he has refreshed himself through three ranks, and demonstrated competency (if not endurance. ). At the rate he's going he will be back up to rank level in another month. Although it is a requirement that all student be familiar with all material below their level, it is not a requirement that one removes their rank. 

Most students do it by choice to feel comfortable and competent within their own peer group. It is a choice, and is demonstrable of the character of the student body, and the standards that they themselves set and uphold for the student body.

There's an old Groucho Marx joke where he says, "I wouldn't want to belong to any club, that would have me as a member." Ed Parker put it another way, "If everyone can join it isn't exclusive. If it isn't exclusive, how good can it be? if everyone can get in and is doing it, than it can't be the best."

The higher you go in any form of education or endeavor, the more demanding the curriculum, and the fewer the numbers. It's not discrimination, it's natural selection. You shouldn't be able to get into Harvard with lousy grades because you don't belong there. The good news is, there is an educational institution that not only will take you, but will serve you better in a less demanding environment, and allow you to work your way back to Harvard should decide to.

A so-called "kra-tee" school in the strip mall is McDonald's. They're full of kids, and anyone else that has the money. We have demonstrated that we turn down old, young, and everyone in-between if they don't fit the standard. Money can't buy your way in, and most can't even find us. We neither seek nor advertise to the masses. Most would be happy to be McDonald's, and the very lucrative numbers that go with it. The difference is, we're not McDonald's, and aren't trying to be sir.


----------



## GBlues

My final word for me is that, if you have earned it, you should recieve it. I personally don't see a difference between a jr. bb, and an adult bb. Both are black. My opinion on it.  With that being said I will bow out of this discussion, as I don't care to get into the pc discussion.


----------



## SL4Drew

stevebjj said:


> I just want to say that you might be opening yourself up to a lawsuit you would lose. While we are free in this country to discriminate on almost any citeria we choose, there are protected categories and disability is one. Saying you won't accept someone without an arm is functionally no different than saying you won't teach a woman or a caucasian. If you have a private club you might get away with it, but if you run a for-profit business, you could be asking for trouble.
> 
> I'm no lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express.  Seriously, though, and I know this advise will probably be ignored, if I were you, I'd consult my own attorny to find out if my admissions criteria is illegal. It sounds so based upon my experience. Again, though, I'm not an expert.


 
Speaking generally about the ADA and the state analogs, there are several reasons why martial arts schools are probably safe. One, they probably aren't places of public accommodation and thus exempt. Even if they were such places, safety is usually a specifically exempted consideration. Arguably people certain types of disabilities would present a danger to themselves and others, which again would make the law not applicable. 

Usually the laws exempt certain 'places of public accommodation' if requring the place to offer the service would fundamentally alter the business. You can't walk into your ENT doctor and demand they treat your spinal cord injury under the ADA. Then even if arguably you may be required to make accommodations, you maybe excused or the change mitigated if the change is not readily achievable.

So, I would think Doc is pretty safe.


----------



## Steve

Doc said:


> I have 5 attorney black belts, and one of them is on this forum. I am under no obligation to teach anyone I do not want to teach. No one has a right to my labor. I am allowed to set standards. I do not run a studio business, I run a "school." There are plenty of places that will babysit kids, take the handicapped, criminals, and people who just want to hang out. I don't do political correct. It produces the lowest common denominator that doesn't serve my teachers real art.
> 
> Thanks for looking out sir I appreciate it.


Doc, I've noticed that"sir" is a code name for a bad word around here so I'd prefer you use Steve or stevebjj.  

I am sure you've got it all under control.  At least, with 5 lawyers you'll be well represented when you are sued.


----------



## Steve

Doc said:


> My nephew is dyslexic. He has a master degree, played football, and his team won the Rose Bowl. He's currently employed as a police officer. he's one of my blue belts. It's all about meeting the standard. Even so, I discriminate against children, criminals and others. I won't take anyone who doesn't meet the standards. Yes I discriminate, just like you probably won't find people in wheel chairs in a TKD studio. You can't buy alcohol until you reach a certain age. You can't get a drivers license, you can't be a cop. Age discrimination? Yes, because they don't meet the standard, etc. The political correct world is blowing a fuse. "How could you?" Problem is, everyone does it everyday. they just won't say it.


doc, i'm on my phone now.  I have some thoughts to add to the discussion but need to wait until I have a real keyboard.  Thank you, though, for taking the time to respond.


----------



## Steve

Doc and everyone else, I think that you've answered all of my questions.  I don't disagree in any significant way.  The only thing, Doc, is that you answered the question regarding the soldier who is now missing a limb, but I'm still unclear.  If a guy who is missing a limb cannot accomplish the curriculum, you would still allow him to train at your school?


----------



## MJS

GBlues said:


> My final word for me is that, if you have earned it, you should recieve it. I personally don't see a difference between a jr. bb, and an adult bb. Both are black. My opinion on it. With that being said I will bow out of this discussion, as I don't care to get into the pc discussion.


 
So you see nothing wrong with a 10yr old 1st degree bb, a 12yo 2nd degree, and a 14yo 3rd degree?  So its possible by the time this person is in their late 20s, early 30s, to be a high ranking bb, and you see nothing wrong with this?  

I doubt that the average student, and yes, there may be 1 in the huge pool, will be able to have the technical skills of an adult bb.


----------



## Tez3

Doc, you posted plained that you don't take people with dyslexia, no amount of pompous verbiosity will disguise that. People with this condition can join the armed services and die for their country but musn't step foot over the threshold over your little school to pursue what is a hobby/sport because you chose to take only the people you want. This of course will be young able bodied and probably male. yeah right.

We aren't talking about the fire services, rights of the disabled or anything like this we are talking purely about people with dyslexia being though not good enough to train at one martial arts 'school'. Sure you have the choice over who you take but the sad thing is you'll never know what you're missing.


----------



## LawDog

"Exclusive" martial arts club could have one of the following two interpertations.
1) When anyone, no matter what their handi-cap or limitations are, can be developed to their fullest potential by this club. Very few clubs can do this so they are exclusive.
2) Taking the best and allowing only them in. This is done for the purpose of "image". Someone else has done the hard work and the "Exclusive Club" takes the bows.

Junior Black Belt.
Either you are a Black Belt or you are not, there is no such thing as a sub level Dan. In many systems a Junior B.B. is an Ikyu rank not a Dan rank. They are simply a 1'st deg. Brown Belt and, for what ever reasons, is allowed to wear a Black Belt.
Some schools even have degree's of Junior Black Belt ???.

In my school we do not have Juniors, you are either of Black Belt ability or you are not.
Again each to their own, it is their reputation or image that could faulter.
:cheers:


----------



## KempoGuy06

a lot a great posts on this thread. some more than others. I have no experience in teaching other than helping a lower rank student work through some of his/her material, so my views are limited. 

That being said I feel that I have the right, should I open a school, to pick and choose who I want to teach. For whatever reason it may be. It is my school and I make the decisions. Will I be ignorant in my choice, no. I understand what people are saying about politically correct and all that. I guess Im not politically correct at least Ive been told so, but I have my opinion about things and all that. I dont make an effort to be to PC because I have noticed that people become fake. And to be perfectly honest I think it is a load of BS. If more people were honest about how they feel then...well...we would have a lot more honesty in the world. I am and dont plant to be anyone else. Ive been called bullheaded and pig headed a lot but I have made it 23 years (almost 24) in this world with out giving a **** what people think about me and I dont plan to start. If you dont like me for who I am or that I speak the truth, at least you will walk away and not be able to deny that I am an honest man and know who *I* am. Anyway that is a little off topic I just wanted to share my .02

B


----------



## SL4Drew

stevebjj said:


> Doc, I've noticed that"sir" is a code name for a bad word around here so I'd prefer you use Steve or stevebjj.


 
Man, I guess I better stop calling Doc, sir...


----------



## SL4Drew

Tez3 said:


> Doc, you posted plained that you don't take people with dyslexia, no amount of pompous verbiosity will disguise that. People with this condition can join the armed services and die for their country but musn't step foot over the threshold over your little school to pursue what is a hobby/sport because you chose to take only the people you want. This of course will be young able bodied and probably male. yeah right.
> 
> We aren't talking about the fire services, rights of the disabled or anything like this we are talking purely about people with dyslexia being though not good enough to train at one martial arts 'school'. Sure you have the choice over who you take but the sad thing is you'll never know what you're missing.


 
In light of his explanation about training his nephew, don't you think maybe he meant a condition severe enough to preclude the student meeting his expectations and succeeding?  I would have thought that clarified what he said.  Obviously, this hit a button with you, sir.  But I think if you re-read what he said about his nephew, you'd see this in a different light.


----------



## MJS

You know, if we think about it, any place that provides a service has the right to refuse service. How many times have we seen the "We reserve the right to....." signs? If we refuse to pay our light bill, the power co. reserves the right to shut you off. If we refuse to pay for an item and proceed to walk out of the store, the police reserve the right to arrest us. A martial arts school is no different. A friend of mine who runs one kicked out a student because of his actions in the school. 

I also find it amazing, how people can engage in a discussion, be presented with opposing views, and get so upset, that they leave. And this is a forum. Do those people do the same thing in real life? 

IMHO, a BB respresents a certain level of mastery in an area, just like a college degree. I'd rather be known for quality than a quantity of crappy BBs running around. "Yeah look at me. I have 100 BB students! This goes to show what a good school I run!" Actually I'd rather have 3 quality BBs, than 100 poor ones. People seem more concerned with keeping everyone happy, instead of standing up for whats right. Do these same parents who get upset little Joey didn't pass, also complain to the school system when Joey is held back? Do they complain because he isn't good enough for the baseball, basketball or whatever other sports team doesn't pick him? Most likely the answer is yes, because they have their blinders and rose colored glasses on. They may, deep down, see that Joey sucks, but just can't bring themselves to admit it, because they'd rather live in denial.

This is just another reason why I would rather see people wait until their kid is 10 or 12 before enrolling, so to avoid the Mcdojo appearance by having a 10yr old 3rd degree BB running around, because the kid started when he was 3. 

I also find it odd that we can have 2 clips....1 showing a poor quality student, the other showing quality students. Its obvious by those clips, that theres a big difference, yet people continue to justify giving rank, a JR BB rank no less to the first kid.


----------



## SL4Drew

KempoGuy06 said:


> a lot a great posts on this thread. some more than others. I have no experience in teaching other than helping a lower rank student work through some of his/her material, so my views are limited.
> 
> That being said I feel that I have the right, should I open a school, to pick and choose who I want to teach. For whatever reason it may be. It is my school and I make the decisions. Will I be ignorant in my choice, no. I understand what people are saying about PC and all that. In my opinion PC is BS. It is ok to be a little PC but people start to go over board and then they become fake and forget who THEY are. Call me bullheaded or pigheaded all you want but Ive made it this far in life without caring what other people think of me Ill do just fine from here on out.
> 
> B


 
Sir, I totally agree with you. I reject any sort of entitlement mentality. Just because I have something you want, doesn't mean I should be legally obligated to give it to you. In martial arts school, accepting students you don't want can be detrimental to the other students, your reputation, and possibly the community. If you make exceptions and excuses for each student out on the floor, then you have no minimum, universal standard. You can't have any consistent quality that way, which seems important in an endeavor that may involve death. Plus, if you profess to teach someone 'deadly' skills, how can you in good conscious teach every person that wants them.


----------



## KempoGuy06

SL4Drew said:


> Sir, I totally agree with you. I reject any sort of entitlement mentality. Just because I have something you want, doesn't mean I should be legally obligated to give it to you. In martial arts school, accepting students you don't want can be detrimental to the other students, your reputation, and possibly the community. If you make exceptions and excuses for each student out on the floor, then you have no minimum, universal standard. You can't have any consistent quality that way, which seems important in an endeavor that may involve death. Plus, if you profess to teach someone 'deadly' skills, how can you in good conscious teach every person that wants them.


sorry for changing my post on you there but I felt like it was a little..well not right. but the idea of the post is the same.

B


----------



## SL4Drew

MJS said:


> I also find it odd that we can have 2 clips....1 showing a poor quality student, the other showing quality students. Its obvious by those clips, that theres a big difference, yet people continue to justify giving rank, a JR BB rank no less to the first kid.


 
Not to go far afield, but I really don't remember anyone in those vids I'd personally throw a black belt on, whether a junior, fourth degree, or otherwise.

But I'd personally prefer not to be highly critical of the kid.  Based on what I saw, he's living up to the expectations of his school and has no reason to think there is anything wrong with those standards.


----------



## Steve

LawDog said:


> Junior Black Belt.
> Either you are a Black Belt or you are not, there is no such thing as a sub level Dan. In many systems a Junior B.B. is an Ikyu rank not a Dan rank. They are simply a 1'st deg. Brown Belt and, for what ever reasons, is allowed to wear a Black Belt.
> Some schools even have degree's of Junior Black Belt ???.


As I've said, I'm all for standards.  I think that BJJ does it well, functionally establishing a blue belt as the high standard for kids.  

Still, just for the sake of argument, isn't the entire belt system somewhat arbitrary to begin with?  We've had these discussions in the past about what a black belt means, and this and that, and it seems that there are several rational opinions on the matter.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't belts an invention of Kudokan Judo and so less than 150 years old?


----------



## Grenadier

Is it really anyone's business to tell someone how he must run his own school? 

For example, should someone who only wants to teach adults feel obligated to accept children, just because there's an exceptionally good child who could succeed in the cirriculum? 

On the other side of the coin, should someone who only caters to children, be criticized for refusing to accept adults, even if certain adults are more than willing to learn a children-tailored program? Someone who excels in teaching children, such as Dawn Barnes, should be able to do as she pleases, and given her success, I wouldn't argue with the results. 

If a school caters to a particular group of folks, then that's their choice, and theirs alone. If someone wants to try to convince them to accept them, then they're certainly free to try, but if they can't convince them, then they're free to go elsewhere. 


There are many schools out there, whose practices are not in line with my beliefs. For example:



I don't agree that it must take 10 years for someone to obtain a yudansha ranking. 
I don't agree that you must be 18 years old to get a black belt. 
I don't like the idea of 15 year old kids holding godan rankings (5th degree black belt). 
I don't like the idea of automatically giving someone a black belt once they've reached a certain amount of time in the system. 
I especially don't like it when 13 year old children are being called Sensei (assuming that the title of "sensei" is for senior instructors). 
However, those practices are the choice of that particular school, and if they're happy with the way they want to run things, then that's their choice. If they're willing to live with the consequences of what they teach, then so be it. While it is my right to criticize someone's practices, it's not my business to tell them that they have to run things a certain way, unless they were actually seeking my input on that matter.


----------



## Grenadier

stevebjj said:


> Still, just for the sake of argument, isn't the entire belt system somewhat arbitrary to begin with? We've had these discussions in the past about what a black belt means, and this and that, and it seems that there are several rational opinions on the matter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't belts an invention of Kudokan Judo and so less than 150 years old?


 
You're right, that the use of belts in this manner came from Kano Jigoro, and that each system that uses belt rankings is going to differ in various ways.  

For many systems, earning the shodan ranking simply means that you have a decent proficiency in the fundamentals, and that you're ready to take on the more advanced training.  Like you pointed out, in the Brazilian Ju Jutsu systems, this level of proficiency is representative of the blue belt ranking.  

To each their own, I'd say.


----------



## JadeDragon3

SifuJohnson said:


> What they call MMA these days would not work on the street for most people. It may work nicely when you are equal in strength or stronger, just as big or bigger and it is a one on one situation.
> 
> What I see on TV reminds me more of professional wrestling than a martial arts competition. Not since the days of the WWF have I seen so many over developed gladiators banging heads and twisting their opponents into arm locks and choke holds. About the only thing we havent seen yet is masks and cage matches but dont fret Im sure it wont be long. Sorry Hulkster but youll need to hide the folding chairs and watch out for foreign objects because big money has finally found the latest payday and almost everyone (except me) seems to have bought completely into it. LOL


 
If you don't think that MMA would work on the streets then you need to re-evaluate MMA.  Give me specific reasons why you think that MMA techniques would not work on the streets.  You don't think that a rear naked choke could be applied on someone in a real actual fight? Or pherhaps a straight arm bar?  Why do you think this?   

Also MMA is far from WWE style wrestling. UFC fights are not fixed.  No one knows the out come in advance.  They really hit and really bleed.


----------



## Steve

SL4Drew said:


> Man, I guess I better stop calling Doc, sir...


haha.     There are always exceptions!


----------



## Doc

Tez3 said:


> Doc, you posted plained that you don't take people with dyslexia, no amount of pompous verbiosity will disguise that. People with this condition can join the armed services and die for their country but musn't step foot over the threshold over your little school to pursue what is a hobby/sport because you chose to take only the people you want. This of course will be young able bodied and probably male. yeah right.
> 
> We aren't talking about the fire services, rights of the disabled or anything like this we are talking purely about people with dyslexia being though not good enough to train at one martial arts 'school'. Sure you have the choice over who you take but the sad thing is you'll never know what you're missing.



Look if you're not going to read the posts, just keep it to yourself. I already said my nephew is a blue belt. You're only focusing on what you want to say and see, and appear to be having a purely emotional argument, primarily with yourself. You think I'm wrong, I think you're thinking "emotionally." I dare someone to tell me I have to teach them because they said so. You don't get it and don't want to. I have an idea, you teach them.


----------



## Doc

stevebjj said:


> Doc, I've noticed that"sir" is a code name for a bad word around here so I'd prefer you use Steve or stevebjj.
> 
> I am sure you've got it all under control.  At least, with 5 lawyers you'll be well represented when you are sued.


I was raised to call everyone sir, until they tell you otherwise. Thanks Steve!


----------



## GBlues

MJS said:


> You know, if we think about it, any place that provides a service has the right to refuse service. How many times have we seen the "We reserve the right to....." signs? If we refuse to pay our light bill, the power co. reserves the right to shut you off. If we refuse to pay for an item and proceed to walk out of the store, the police reserve the right to arrest us. A martial arts school is no different. A friend of mine who runs one kicked out a student because of his actions in the school.
> 
> I also find it amazing, how people can engage in a discussion, be presented with opposing views, and get so upset, that they leave. And this is a forum. Do those people do the same thing in real life?
> 
> IMHO, a BB respresents a certain level of mastery in an area, just like a college degree. I'd rather be known for quality than a quantity of crappy BBs running around. "Yeah look at me. I have 100 BB students! This goes to show what a good school I run!" Actually I'd rather have 3 quality BBs, than 100 poor ones. People seem more concerned with keeping everyone happy, instead of standing up for whats right. Do these same parents who get upset little Joey didn't pass, also complain to the school system when Joey is held back? Do they complain because he isn't good enough for the baseball, basketball or whatever other sports team doesn't pick him? Most likely the answer is yes, because they have their blinders and rose colored glasses on. They may, deep down, see that Joey sucks, but just can't bring themselves to admit it, because they'd rather live in denial.
> 
> This is just another reason why I would rather see people wait until their kid is 10 or 12 before enrolling, so to avoid the Mcdojo appearance by having a 10yr old 3rd degree BB running around, because the kid started when he was 3.
> 
> I also find it odd that we can have 2 clips....1 showing a poor quality student, the other showing quality students. Its obvious by those clips, that theres a big difference, yet people continue to justify giving rank, a JR BB rank no less to the first kid.


 
Woe, woe, woe, woe! Well, I was going to leave the discussion, because I personally didn't want to get into the whole dyslexia thing with doc. However, now my pride has been wounded. LOL! 

1st and foremost, my position ain't changed. If your giving a black belt test regardless of adult or junior, and they earn it, they have the chops, they should be considered a black belt. That's my opinion. If as an example, I'm drilling for a company for 6 months I do not expect for them to then on the 7th hire somebody new and make me a helper, and tell me I've been nothing but a helper the whole time I been drilling holes in the ground for the last 6 months. Either you are or you are not. If a jr. bb is not a bb, then it is not, and it is something else. When a child here's you say, "Now your a jr blackbelt", he don't hear that. He hears "BLACK BELT". It's only natural. And if your going to give that designation of "Black Belt" behind JR. but it not be considered a real black belt, then you shouldn't give one period, in my opinion. You can do whatever you want, I just don't feel that decieving people is one of those things that I like to do, or have done to me. I just feel that there is a shady area when you start doing that.

Now, martial arts instructors absolutely have the right to teach whoever they want, and do it anyway that they want. It does not benefit the student to be given the magical "black belt", if he doesn't have the skills and maturity to handle the responsiblities of the title. If I'm not ready to be driller, I shouldn't be drilling, period. If I'm not ready to be  black belt I shouldn't be one, not even a jr, cause I ain't ready for it. My opinion and you can do with it what you will.

Now as far as Doc's dyslexic comment, he did say when asked how he would handle having a student like that, that he would refuse them training. Period, no if and or but's about it, they may not train with doc. However, then a few posts later he tries to defend himself with the fact that his nephew is dyslexic. Which, in that case in my mind you can't have it both ways. Either you do or you do not. Or you just have double standards for the rest of the world but your nephew is ok. The same with the question about a returning vet, who lost his arm. doc says, "OH yeah, I'd accept him right back into the classes." But two posts ago, you said that, you have standards and they don't include teaching the disabled. I guy who lost his arm is now technically disabled. You have standards that can't change, they are set in stone. You want to keep the quality of your style up, and guy with one arm definitely isn't going to be able to do all of the kata's, is he? So there goes your quality of excellence right out the window.

And no the kid in the first clip should not be a black belt. I've seen in my own classes that I attend 5 year old kids that have more heart, and skills than that little guy. They are just white belts still. So my opinion if I was making the decision, no he shouldn't have got it, he didn't earn it. He's not up to snuff. Period. That's my position on that. However, I'm not making that decision.:asian:


----------



## Twin Fist

should I?


nope, not gonna



JadeDragon3 said:


> If you don't think that MMA would work on the streets then you need to re-evaluate MMA.  Give me specific reasons why you think that MMA techniques would not work on the streets.  You don't think that a rear naked choke could be applied on someone in a real actual fight? Or pherhaps a straight arm bar?  Why do you think this?
> 
> Also MMA is far from WWE style wrestling. UFC fights are not fixed.  No one knows the out come in advance.  They really hit and really bleed.


----------



## Doc

stevebjj said:


> Doc and everyone else, I think that you've answered all of my questions.  I don't disagree in any significant way.  The only thing, Doc, is that you answered the question regarding the soldier who is now missing a limb, but I'm still unclear.  If a guy who is missing a limb cannot accomplish the curriculum, you would still allow him to train at your school?



Long time students already have haven't they? Once you're "family" you are always family, no matter what.


----------



## MJS

SL4Drew said:


> Not to go far afield, but I really don't remember anyone in those vids I'd personally throw a black belt on, whether a junior, fourth degree, or otherwise.
> 
> But I'd personally prefer not to be highly critical of the kid. Based on what I saw, he's living up to the expectations of his school and has no reason to think there is anything wrong with those standards.


 
Yes, I suppose you do have a valid point.  I mean, afterall, the real issue isn't so much with the kid, but with the teacher.  He's the one who's promoting the kid and IMO, that instructor, whomever it is, seems more interested in the quantity, not the quality, of a black belt.

As for the other clips....IMO, I feel that they demonstrated much more quality.  The power, intensity....it was there as far as I'm concerned.  As I said, I don't know GM Kingi personally, and I don't even train in Kajukenbo, but it seems to me that he doesn't run a belt factory.  I believe that if you get rank under him, you're really deserving of that rank.


----------



## Doc

LawDog said:


> "Exclusive" martial arts club could have one of the following two interpertations.
> 1) When anyone, no matter what their handi-cap or limitations are, can be developed to their fullest potential by this club. Very few clubs can do this so they are exclusive.
> 2) Taking the best and allowing only them in. This is done for the purpose of "image". Someone else has done the hard work and the "Exclusive Club" takes the bows.



Actually there are a lot more meanings possible. You just seem to be limited in your ability to come up with any that might be complimentary, but that is no surprise considering your proclivities.


----------



## Doc

SL4Drew said:


> Speaking generally about the ADA and the state analogs, there are several reasons why martial arts schools are probably safe. One, they probably aren't places of public accommodation and thus exempt. Even if they were such places, safety is usually a specifically exempted consideration. Arguably people certain types of disabilities would present a danger to themselves and others, which again would make the law not applicable.
> 
> Usually the laws exempt certain 'places of public accommodation' if requring the place to offer the service would fundamentally alter the business. You can't walk into your ENT doctor and demand they treat your spinal cord injury under the ADA. Then even if arguably you may be required to make accommodations, you maybe excused or the change mitigated if the change is not readily achievable.
> 
> So, I would think Doc is pretty safe.



Spoken like one of my lawyers. Oh wait! You ARE one of my lawyers.


----------



## SL4Drew

MJS said:


> As for the other clips....IMO, I feel that they demonstrated much more quality. The power, intensity....it was there as far as I'm concerned. As I said, I don't know GM Kingi personally, and I don't even train in Kajukenbo, but it seems to me that he doesn't run a belt factory. I believe that if you get rank under him, you're really deserving of that rank.


 
I thought this school was with Rick Fowler.  And yes I agree that the kids lacked intensity.


----------



## Steve

Doc said:


> Long time students already have haven't they? Once you're "family" you are always family, no matter what.


Okay. Makes sense. I'm still not sure I agree. Doc (and anyone else!), if you could take a look at another thread, I'd appreciate it. I started it because this was moving more into ADA/Discrimination and MA and less about kids.


----------



## MJS

GBlues said:


> Woe, woe, woe, woe! Well, I was going to leave the discussion, because I personally didn't want to get into the whole dyslexia thing with doc. However, now my pride has been wounded. LOL!
> 
> 1st and foremost, my position ain't changed. If your giving a black belt test regardless of adult or junior, and they earn it, they have the chops, they should be considered a black belt. That's my opinion. If as an example, I'm drilling for a company for 6 months I do not expect for them to then on the 7th hire somebody new and make me a helper, and tell me I've been nothing but a helper the whole time I been drilling holes in the ground for the last 6 months. Either you are or you are not. If a jr. bb is not a bb, then it is not, and it is something else. When a child here's you say, "Now your a jr blackbelt", he don't hear that. He hears "BLACK BELT". It's only natural. And if your going to give that designation of "Black Belt" behind JR. but it not be considered a real black belt, then you shouldn't give one period, in my opinion. You can do whatever you want, I just don't feel that decieving people is one of those things that I like to do, or have done to me. I just feel that there is a shady area when you start doing that.


 
And this is why, IMHO, I feel that things need to be presented to the potential new student and parents, BEFORE they join.  That way there are no surprises.  A jr bb is not an adult bb, plain and simple.  In many schools, the material is condensed, so as I said earlier about the 24 techs. per belt in the Parker system, for a child, I'd imagine many schools trim that down.  So, once the child reaches the jrbb point, they learn the rest of the material, which takes them to the point, when they should be ready for an adult bb.  Ex: A child starts at 4.  By the time he's 10, technically he's probably put in the usual amount of time for one to reach black, however due to age, he is still young, so the jrbb fills that gap.  



> Now, martial arts instructors absolutely have the right to teach whoever they want, and do it anyway that they want. It does not benefit the student to be given the magical "black belt", if he doesn't have the skills and maturity to handle the responsiblities of the title. If I'm not ready to be driller, I shouldn't be drilling, period. If I'm not ready to be black belt I shouldn't be one, not even a jr, cause I ain't ready for it. My opinion and you can do with it what you will.


 
IMHO, that kid does not have the skills nor the maturity.  Seems to me the inst. is more interested in pumping out as many bb's as possible, regardless of quality.  So sad thats the road some of the arts have taken.



> Now as far as Doc's dyslexic comment, he did say when asked how he would handle having a student like that, that he would refuse them training. Period, no if and or but's about it, they may not train with doc. However, then a few posts later he tries to defend himself with the fact that his nephew is dyslexic. Which, in that case in my mind you can't have it both ways. Either you do or you do not. Or you just have double standards for the rest of the world but your nephew is ok. The same with the question about a returning vet, who lost his arm. doc says, "OH yeah, I'd accept him right back into the classes." But two posts ago, you said that, you have standards and they don't include teaching the disabled. I guy who lost his arm is now technically disabled. You have standards that can't change, they are set in stone. You want to keep the quality of your style up, and guy with one arm definitely isn't going to be able to do all of the kata's, is he? So there goes your quality of excellence right out the window.


 
I haven't mentioned the comments Doc has made.  I have agreed with some, and have shown that by 'thanking' him for his post.  Doc has his standards at his school, and IMO, whoever he wants or doesn't want to teach is his business and his only.  If someone doesn't like it, they simply leave his school and go elsewhere.  As I said, a business has the right to refuse service to anyone.  I addressed that comment in a prior post.



> And no the kid in the first clip should not be a black belt. I've seen in my own classes that I attend 5 year old kids that have more heart, and skills than that little guy. They are just white belts still. So my opinion if I was making the decision, no he shouldn't have got it, he didn't earn it. He's not up to snuff. Period. That's my position on that. However, I'm not making that decision.:asian:


 
At least we agree on something.


----------



## Doc

GBlues said:


> Now as far as Doc's dyslexic comment, he did say when asked how he would handle having a student like that, that he would refuse them training. Period, no if and or but's about it, they may not train with doc. However, then a few posts later he tries to defend himself with the fact that his nephew is dyslexic. Which, in that case in my mind you can't have it both ways. Either you do or you do not. Or you just have double standards for the rest of the world but your nephew is ok. The same with the question about a returning vet, who lost his arm. doc says, "OH yeah, I'd accept him right back into the classes." But two posts ago, you said that, you have standards and they don't include teaching the disabled. I guy who lost his arm is now technically disabled. You have standards that can't change, they are set in stone. You want to keep the quality of your style up, and guy with one arm definitely isn't going to be able to do all of the kata's, is he? So there goes your quality of excellence right out the window.


Let me be clear for you. It's about the standards. Once you come into the student body because you can meet the standards, I don't care after that. The initial interview and screening are what matters. Once someone enters your family, you don't kick them out because of misfortune. I mentioned my nephew to make the point that he meets the standards even with the disorder. if he didn't I wouldn't take him. Standards first, the way it should be.


----------



## MJS

SL4Drew said:


> I thought this school was with Rick Fowler. And yes I agree that the kids lacked intensity.


 
I honestly have no idea who the first school is affiliated with.  As for the other clips I posted, those are GM Rick Kingi and Prof. John Bishops clips, both located in sunny Ca.  Kajukenbo schools.


----------



## SL4Drew

MJS said:


> I honestly have no idea who the first school is affiliated with. As for the other clips I posted, those are GM Rick Kingi and Prof. John Bishops clips, both located in sunny Ca. Kajukenbo schools.


 
I missed those, sorry.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Tez3 said:


> Political correctness my ****, ignorance more like.


 
As a member of Docs extended student family, and a dyslexic, I absolutely disagree with you. Wrestled with -- and still do -- ADHD and dyslexia, both as a kid, and as an adult. With medication, and great effort to detail, I can reign in my thoughts and focus enough, on occasion, to remember the difference between my right and left sides. 

In the motion kenpo model, this has not been that large a detriment. Instructor yells 'Right forward bow", I just watch to see what everybody else does, and mimic which foot they have forward...never determining which it is. Worked out directions with my ex when we were driving places. Replaced "turn left" and "turn right" with "Make a Dave at the light, and a Monique at the stop sign". Something concrete to relate to.

To make it worse, I can miss some sleep, have some wiring in my brain fritz out, and lose track of what hand I do things with. Was ambidextrous, now am moslty left-handed for coordinative things (writing, eating), and right handed with power things. Kenpo techniques? Motion kenpo system, I can spontaneously do the opposite side with the same coordination, speed, power, as the "traditional" side, typically confusing the hell out my students and making it necessary for my senior students to work out a sign language cue for "You did it on us again", so I can switch back to the right-side of the tech.

I have "writing glasses". Prescription glasses with an Irlen institute tint on them, so I can see words, sentences, and paragraphs, instead of fields of inky rivers wiggling over the page like insects. I use them to write these posts online, as without them, the words and letters won't stop jumbling like they are in a jig on a vibrating table full of ants. 

Training at Docs requires me to actually be able to attend to "left" and "right". Been in this body 44 years, and still don't have it nailed down. To make it worse, his attenntion to detail about "in this position, dominant hand over non-dominant hand", means we have to test for it, then I have to remember which it actually was (turns out I'm neurologically left-handed). And I have to do it fast enough to not ruin things for the rest of the class. That has been my burden with training in classes my whole karate life (since 1971, so far).

And do you know what I don't do? I don't blame Doc for my issue. He has a lot of information that's super valuable, and takes a great attention to detail to get. Between the crappy discs in my back and neck, ADHD, and dyslexia, I make it a point to prep before going in, so I'm not the cause of 
a) slowing everyone elses learning process down (I don't have the right to mess with their lessons...If I can't keep up, I owe it to others to stay out of the way. No one is under any obligations to diminish the quality of their experiences to meet the capacity of the lowest common denominator. If that were true, by extension, elaboration, and exaggeration, we should grind the educational system to a near-halt, so that we don't move any faster than our most cognitively disabled societal members can keep up), and, 

b) exasperating Doc enough that he regrets the decision to let me join them.​Instead, I pre-medicate properly to minimize the anxiety around "will I be able to keep up?" (that anxiety is more distracting and debilitating, I think, then the actual disorder, but when your adult day-to-day life has been such a miserable struggle and disappointment to the people you love, becuase of how hard it can be to stay focused long enough to get dressed and out the freakin' door, anxiety about consequnces becomes an unavoidable part of the package). I try to nap before going in. I try to allow my mind a rest period, so I'm not going from a series of fragmenting stressors, into a class that requires a level of focus and right-vs-left that's typically beyond me anyway.

The wonderful combination of ADD/Dyslexia has ruined my life. Everything is harder. The amount of mental energy that goes into making a bloody pot of coffee is about parallel to what a non-ADD person might put into building a high-end doghouse from scratch. Add to this...remembering to file the proper paperwork on time with licensing boards or the taxman; getting bills paid remotely on time; actually washing the laundry laid out for weeks; tracking what stuff is in what pile; getting through all the books on "how to organize if you have ADD", written by people who don't, ... and...you ready for this Tez?...none of this is Docs fault, Doc's problem, Doc's concern, etc. His concern is keeping his commitments to himself, his instructor/friend (our systems founder), and his other students who actually CAN track the lesson and keep up. 

I feel bad when I'm there. For detracting from the learning experience available to the others in class. So I try to learn, while staying out of the way. Add a few more like me to a class, and it would be absolutely unachievable for there to be any viable thread of information being added to the tapestry of learning for others present.

I have a doctorate in psych, and one in health sciences (my friends call me "double D"). And still can't rremember my right from my left. My dirty little secret, tis whole "learning disability" thing. Can you imagine trying to auscultate the heart, but confused which side the bugger is on just cuz you got a little less sleep the night before? There's a reason I'm a chiropractor, and not an MD surgeon...nothing to cut incorrectly ("We'll be removing the RIGHT kidney today, doctor"...uh, which one is that, Nurse?), and I just crack the bony bump that's sticking out where it shouldn't be, imparting motion where there wasn't any but shouldoughta been.

For as many "famous people" who have had dyslexia and similar dysfunctions, there are 1000 percent more who have lived wrecked lives, ruining not only theirs, but aspects of those with whom they share the ride. With proper prep, I can keep up. Sorta. And I'm still allowed in. Doc's nephew keeps up perfectly fine. He's allowed in. I know many who would not be able to keep up. They should not be allowed in. Simple, in my eyes.

Dave


----------



## LawDog

Got it wrong again, do I fuse into my answers to others questions,
*re-directs,
*partial quotes,
*misquotes
*large multi paragraph answers to, in my opion, confuse,
or simply refuses to answer or ignores a question that has been posed towards me.
As pointed out, I am but a simple person who only knows how to give direct and to the point answers. I am not as well versed in the English language like some are. I therefore must fall back on my real life / training experience and tell it, street version, like it is. If someone takes it wrong then they can simply re-post and ask me to explain my posting better.


----------



## Tez3

Doc, guess what, I do teach people with dyslexia. It doesn't always come with complications either. Don't get upset with me just because you posted something you know makes you look bad. You posted that you don't take dyslexics, plain and simple. You didn't say you consider how people cope before deciding to take them, you didn't say you refuse to take people with more than dyslexia, you said only that *you don't accept* *them* full stop, now you're trying to justify that. Btw my question was a perfectly honest one, I was curious to know how you dealt with the essay writing. You were dismissive in dealing with my question. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Tez3* 

 
_What do you do in the case of dyslexia?_

*I don't accept them. *Unquote

Now it seems you do, so why did you post that you don't? why all the stuff about it being political correctness? it was good of your student to defend you but should he have had to? Why did you deny him originally? 
_I have no problem with people deciding who they should teach_ _and who_ _they shouldn't_ but the sheer rudeness of a blanket ban on a particular condition without taking anything into consideration is inhumane and unfair. Now it seems the post was a falsehood and you do take people with dyslexia, a severe case by the account so why the denial in the first place. 

Emotional? yeah, damn right and proud of it :ultracool

It's probably best not to call people sir unless you're positive they are male rofl!!


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Tez3 said:


> Doc, guess what, I do teach people with dyslexia. It doesn't always come with complications either. Don't get upset with me just because you posted something you know makes you look bad. You posted that you don't take dyslexics, plain and simple. You didn't say you consider how people cope before deciding to take them, you didn't say you refuse to take people with more than dyslexia, you said only that *you don't accept* *them* full stop, now you're trying to justify that. Btw my question was a perfectly honest one, I was curious to know how you dealt with the essay writing. You were dismissive in dealing with my question.
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tez3*
> 
> 
> _What do you do in the case of dyslexia?_
> 
> *I don't accept them. *Unquote
> 
> Now it seems you do, so why did you post that you don't? why all the stuff about it being political correctness? it was good of your student to defend you but should he have had to? Why did you deny him originally?
> _I have no problem with people deciding who they should teach_ _and who_ _they shouldn't_ but the sheer rudeness of a blanket ban on a particular condition without taking anything into consideration is inhumane and unfair. Now it seems the post was a falsehood and you do take people with dyslexia, a severe case by the account so why the denial in the first place.
> 
> Emotional? yeah, damn right and proud of it :ultracool
> 
> It's probably best not to call people sir unless you're positive they are male rofl!!


 
If the student you're referring to is me, I was never intitially denied. I also didn't come to his defense: I stated my experience with my disorder, and with Doc. I get where he's coming from. On the other hand...Picking peanuts out of poop with pointy pliers to win a point seems a bit tedious. IMO.

And I knew you were a woman. I think I even teased you about your avatar, once or twice.

D.


----------



## Tez3

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> If the student you're referring to is me, I was never intitially denied. I also didn't come to his defense: I stated my experience with my disorder, and with Doc. I get where he's coming from. On the other hand...Picking peanuts out of poop with pointy pliers to win a point seems a bit tedious. IMO.
> 
> And I knew you were a woman. I think I even teased you about your avatar, once or twice.
> 
> D.


 
Just missed the points really didn't you Oh well if you can't see I'm not explaining further, it's dinner time here.


----------



## DavidCC

Tez3 said:


> Doc, you posted plained that you don't take people with dyslexia, no amount of pompous verbiosity will disguise that. People with this condition can join the armed services and die for their country but musn't step foot over the threshold over your little school to pursue what is a hobby/sport because you chose to take only the people you want. This of course will be young able bodied and probably male. yeah right.
> 
> We aren't talking about the fire services, rights of the disabled or anything like this we are talking purely about people with dyslexia being though not good enough to train at one martial arts 'school'. Sure you have the choice over who you take but the sad thing is you'll never know what you're missing.


 
he did write that but he also wrote that he has a blue belt with dyslexia too.

How can those stmts be reconciled?  Well,I think that if a person's dyslexia is so uncontrolled that they cannot pass a written exam, then they are not qualified for admission to DoOc's school.  if it does not impeded them from passing the written exam, then it is not a problem.

"I want to come to your school but I can't live up to your requirement that {whatever it is}"

who would take that person?

ridiculous


----------



## Tez3

DavidCC said:


> he did write that but he also wrote that he has a blue belt with dyslexia too.
> 
> How can those stmts be reconciled? Well,I think that if a person's dyslexia is so uncontrolled that they cannot pass a written exam, then they are not qualified for admission to DoOc's school. if it does not impeded them from passing the written exam, then it is not a problem.
> 
> "I want to come to your school but I can't live up to your requirement that {whatever it is}"
> 
> who would take that person?
> 
> ridiculous


 
You don't 'control' dyslexia as such. if there are no other conditions that go with it and many don't have, it's a case of having coping strategies. In schools, colleges etc this can be as simple as having someone who can take down dictation and type. for others it may be special glasses. 
By your example not being to read or write means that illiterate people are also barred from training.

No one is saying you have to take students you don't want to, you can talk to any perspective student and discuss with them training, medical conditions and disabilities etc, then a reasoned decision can be made by both sides.If you feel you can doing nothing for this student, say so honestly, the student may have already decided that for themselves. however you may end up with a brilliant student who just needs to dictate their essay to someone, still their essay just been written down by someone else. You may decide you can cope with and teach a student with asthma but can't cope with an autistic student. Thats honesty and doing the best for all concerned.

What is wrong though is a blanket ban on anyone even asking to train with you because you've said 'no disabilities or medical conditions, no mentally or handicapped people will be accepted here' so don't even bother knocking on our door.

Btw its basically the same with teaching children, if you aren't a person who can teach children sympathically why do it? If you enjoy teaching children and believe you can teach them to a high standard, go for it.


----------



## exile

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:* 

This thread is becoming seriously overheated. *Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. *Please review our rules 1.1 on sniping and personal attacks.  Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Bob Levine
-MT Senior Moderator-


----------



## SL4Drew

Tez3 said:


> What is wrong though is a blanket ban on anyone even asking to train with you because you've said 'no disabilities or medical conditions, no mentally or handicapped people will be accepted here' so don't even bother knocking on our door.
> 
> Btw its basically the same with teaching children, if you aren't a person who can teach children sympathically why do it? If you enjoy teaching children and believe you can teach them to a high standard, go for it.


 
You are missing the much broader point and persistently want to stick to a single statement he made. The problem with this medium, is we really aren't having a conversation, but we really aren't writing essays. You have some time to be reflective, but not days, weeks, or months. And if someone says something unclear they cannot quickly explain what they mean. Offer a slew of posts have come in before any clarification can be offered. 

For your own reasons (whatever they are) you refuse to accept ANY of the explanations given to you. You refuse to acknowledge that despite the statement there are at least two such students. To make one last run at it. The question was asked if he accepted people with disabilities, the answer was no. Then you asked about dyslexia specifically. Let me submit to you that if Doc's students with dyslexia are successful in his school, then they really aren't disabled for purposes of his teachings. I could also suggestive he was making a normative statement rather than a positive one.

To redirect this somewhat using your quote, you don't expect everyone to teach children, so why do you expect them to teach every person with a disability? Not everyone is equipped or qualified to do that. And several explanations were offered as to why "mainstreaming" everyone into a martial arts class is the best idea.


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## Tez3

SL4Drew said:


> You are missing the much broader point and persistently want to stick to a single statement he made. The problem with this medium, is we really aren't having a conversation, but we really aren't writing essays. You have some time to be reflective, but not days, weeks, or months. And if someone says something unclear they cannot quickly explain what they mean. Offer a slew of posts have come in before any clarification can be offered.
> 
> For your own reasons (whatever they are) you refuse to accept ANY of the explanations given to you. You refuse to acknowledge that despite the statement there are at least two such students. To make one last run at it. *The question was asked if he accepted people with disabilities, the answer was no. Then you asked about dyslexia specifically*. Let me submit to you that if Doc's students with dyslexia are successful in his school, then they really aren't disabled for purposes of his teachings. I could also suggestive he was making a normative statement rather than a positive one.
> 
> To redirect this somewhat using your quote, you don't expect everyone to teach children, so why do you expect them to teach every person with a disability? Not everyone is equipped or qualified to do that. And several explanations were offered as to why "mainstreaming" everyone into a martial arts class is the best idea.


 

You are misunderstanding me and I've stated things plainly. You have things in the wrong order.

Doc said he had essays as part of the grading for BB, I asked about dyslexic people as I was interested in how it was dealt with by someone else to increase my knowledge. He then said he didn't take them nor other handicapped people. I didn't raise the subject of disabilities or handicaps. I have never said anything about people being expected to teach everyone with a disability either, I think you need to re-read the thread.
Please do me the courtesy of getting things correct.


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## SL4Drew

Tez3 said:


> You are misunderstanding me and I've stated things plainly. You have things in the wrong order.
> 
> Doc said he had essays as part of the grading for BB, I asked about dyslexic people as I was interested in how it was dealt with by someone else to increase my knowledge. He then said he didn't take them nor other handicapped people. I didn't raise the subject of disabilities or handicaps.
> Please do me the courtesy of getting things correct.


 
The fact that was your entire response is illuminating. And I didn't say _you_ asked the disability question because I knew _you_ didn't. But you are right, the general question of disabilities came after your specific one.

The rest of my post stands. And it painfully clear to me there really is nothing that can be said further to you. Your mind is made up and no one can tell you anything different.


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## Tez3

SL4Drew said:


> The fact that was your entire response is illuminating. And I didn't say _you_ asked the disability question because I knew _you_ didn't. But you are right, the general question of disabilities came after your specific one.
> 
> The rest of my post stands. And it painfully clear to me there really is nothing that can be said further to you. Your mind is made up and no one can tell you anything different.


 
Oh dear throw teddy in the corner is it?

My dear boy, it's painfully clear that you have not understood a whit of what I've written, you are correct to give it up as a bad job. I'd suggest though that in future you be less patronising, less dismissive and far less superior in your posts. It's only because of Exiles considered post that I don't actually say what I think.

Please however take the time you spend not answering me again to reread my posts and find where I said I expected people to teach everyone with a disability. That was never my argument so perhaps it's not a surprise you've misunderstood me.

Again in deference to wiser and cooler heads than mine I shall bow out from this thread.


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## SL4Drew

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear throw teddy in the corner is it?
> 
> My dear boy, it's painfully clear that you have not understood a whit of what I've written, you are correct to give it up as a bad job. I'd suggest though that in future you be less patronising, less dismissive and far less superior in your posts. It's only because of Exiles considered post that I don't actually say what I think.
> 
> Please however take the time you spend not answering me again to reread my posts and find where I said I expected people to teach everyone with a disability. That was never my argument so perhaps it's not a surprise you've misunderstood me.
> 
> Again in deference to wiser and cooler heads than mine I shall bow out from this thread.


 
How very gracious of you.  I would suggest you take your own advice before dispensing the same to others.


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## Tez3

SL4Drew said:


> How very gracious of you. I would suggest you take your own advice before dispensing the same to others.


 

:lol:


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## DavidCC

Tez3 said:


> You don't 'control' dyslexia as such. if there are no other conditions that go with it and many don't have, it's a case of having coping strategies. In schools, colleges etc this can be as simple as having someone who can take down dictation and type. for others it may be special glasses.
> By your example not being to read or write means that illiterate people are also barred from training.
> 
> No one is saying you have to take students you don't want to, you can talk to any perspective student and discuss with them training, medical conditions and disabilities etc, then a reasoned decision can be made by both sides.If you feel you can doing nothing for this student, say so honestly, the student may have already decided that for themselves. however you may end up with a brilliant student who just needs to dictate their essay to someone, still their essay just been written down by someone else. You may decide you can cope with and teach a student with asthma but can't cope with an autistic student. Thats honesty and doing the best for all concerned.
> 
> What is wrong though is a blanket ban on anyone even asking to train with you because you've said 'no disabilities or medical conditions, no mentally or handicapped people will be accepted here' so don't even bother knocking on our door.
> 
> Btw its basically the same with teaching children, if you aren't a person who can teach children sympathically why do it? If you enjoy teaching children and believe you can teach them to a high standard, go for it.


 
"No one is saying you have to take students you don't want to, you can talk to any perspective student and discuss with them training, medical conditions and disabilities etc, *then a reasoned decision can be made by both sides*."

and what if the applicant wants to train despite the teacher's _reasoned decision_ that they are not qualified?

training is not a right, it is a privilege.  Do you disagree with that?


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## Traditionalist

KempoGuy06 said:


> i dont not agree, in no way should you *have* to give a kid a black belt. Tell them up front, as I would do, that they will not receive until the age of 18 (which I feel is the right age) or unless they demonstrate the maturity level to handle the responsibilities of the rank. Once they attain that rank they need to also understand that in the eyes of the instructor and the people at the dojo they are an adult and from then on will be treated like an adult.
> 
> sorry my .02
> 
> B


 
Thank you. Totally Agree.


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## Doc

Tez3 said:


> Doc, guess what, I do teach people with dyslexia. It doesn't always come with complications either. Don't get upset with me just because you posted something you know makes you look bad. You posted that you don't take dyslexics, plain and simple. You didn't say you consider how people cope before deciding to take them, you didn't say you refuse to take people with more than dyslexia, you said only that *you don't accept* *them* full stop, now you're trying to justify that. Btw my question was a perfectly honest one, I was curious to know how you dealt with the essay writing. You were dismissive in dealing with my question.
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Tez3*
> 
> 
> _What do you do in the case of dyslexia?_
> 
> *I don't accept them. *Unquote
> 
> Now it seems you do, so why did you post that you don't? why all the stuff about it being political correctness? it was good of your student to defend you but should he have had to? Why did you deny him originally?
> _I have no problem with people deciding who they should teach_ _and who_ _they shouldn't_ but the sheer rudeness of a blanket ban on a particular condition without taking anything into consideration is inhumane and unfair. Now it seems the post was a falsehood and you do take people with dyslexia, a severe case by the account so why the denial in the first place.
> 
> Emotional? yeah, damn right and proud of it :ultracool
> 
> It's probably best not to call people sir unless you're positive they are male rofl!!



Pardon me for having an exception to a simple requirement. I answered as is generally correct. If I were to begin to write every exception for every yes and no answer I could spend my life on he forum. Seems you're more concerned with being right, than whether someone who should be able to train is allowed which they do. My advice to you is take a Motrin, wait a week, and your problem will go away.


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## TigerCraneGuy

SL4Drew said:


> Not to go far afield, but I really don't remember anyone in those vids I'd personally throw a black belt on, whether a junior, fourth degree, or otherwise.


 
Totally agreed. The lack of decent stancework, intent, power, and body alignment made it extremely difficult to sit through both vids. Personally though, I was more appalled at the lackadaisical manner displayed by the fourth-degree, who not being a kid, really OUGHT to have known better!

But, as has been previously discussed, if the teacher doesn't think it's important to execute a tech as if your life depends on it, then why should the student?:soapbox:

Kind Regards,
TCG


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## Doc

TigerCraneGuy said:


> Totally agreed. The lack of decent stancework, intent, power, and body alignment made it extremely difficult to sit through both vids. Personally though, I was more appalled at the lackadaisical manner displayed by the fourth-degree, who not being a kid, really OUGHT to have known better!
> 
> But, as has been previously discussed, if the teacher doesn't think it's important to execute a tech as if your life depends on it, then why should the student?:soapbox:
> 
> Kind Regards,
> TCG



Which is why I blame instructors and not students. I inform students, not blame them.


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## TigerCraneGuy

Doc said:


> Which is why I blame instructors and not students. I inform students, not blame them.


 
I know what you mean, sir (oops, is that word passe now?).

And I've often found that you can gain a good indication of the teacher's ability by watching his students, especially the senior ones... which is why I'm entirely happy to train with the 5.0 crowd in Oz. Our school may have only one black belt (a 2nd degree), but the way she, the one Green Belt, and the two Blue Belts move, I know my instructor does a damn good job in skilling students up.

Also, having trained in two TKD McDojos, I believe that even if a school decides to award Jnr Black Belts, the Pass/Fail decision should still be governed by decent standards of excellence, i.e. Poor basics and lackadaisical performance = Fail.

Kind regards,
TCG

P.S. Sir, I hope very much to be able to attend one of your seminars someday...


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## Doc

TigerCraneGuy said:


> I know what you mean, sir (oops, is that word passe now?).
> 
> And I've often found that you can gain a good indication of the teacher's ability by watching his students, especially the senior ones... which is why I'm entirely happy to train with the 5.0 crowd in Oz. Our school may have only one black belt (a 2nd degree), but the way she, the one Green Belt, and the two Blue Belts move, I know my instructor does a damn good job in skilling students up.
> 
> Also, having trained in two TKD McDojos, I believe that even if a school decides to award Jnr Black Belts, the Pass/Fail decision should still be governed by decent standards of excellence, i.e. Poor basics and lackadaisical performance = Fail.
> 
> Kind regards,
> TCG
> 
> P.S. Sir, I hope very much to be able to attend one of your seminars someday...



Yeah, Jeff was a student and friend of mine and I know his hard-nosed tough approch to teaching and appreciate it.


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## The Last Legionary

Truely, the intellectual constepentration here is far beyond my own. I mean, for so many, to have surpassed the need for manners, decorum, and might I say it, maturity. I for one, would beg you to take my worthless self on as a student, and mold me, teach me, shape me in your own images.

On second thought, never mind. I like having friends, not being thought of as a pompous *** and, err, wait a minute (checks rep, pms, and notes).

HEY!

I guess I do fit in with you lot already. Well, print me up a nice shiny certificate, and calll me cuddles. I'd say Ladies and Gentlemen, but no one of that ilk is here, so I'll just say pinheads, blowhards and egomanicas, lend meee your rears!


Or to put it another way, I'm sure you have points, but the dickhead quotient here is getting pretty thick. I just want to fit in.

Toodles!


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## The Last Legionary

exile said:


> *ATTENTION ALL USERS:*
> 
> This thread is becoming seriously overheated. *Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. *Please review our rules 1.1 on sniping and personal attacks. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
> 
> -Bob Levine
> -MT Senior Moderator-[/quote]
> 
> Opps.  Sorry.


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## Bob Hubbard

*Moderator Note

Thread Locked Pending Review*


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## MT Admin Team

****ATTENTION ALL USERS!****

*This thread, after much review, is being re-opened.  There have been a number of posts which have been reported due to their nature.  Please review the forum rules.  Please refrain from posts which are harassing, rude or contain personal shots.  There have been warnings in place which have gone ignored.  This thread will be watched and will be closed again, without notice if the forum rules can't be followed.*

*MT Admin Team*


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## SifuJohnson

JadeDragon3 said:


> If you don't think that MMA would work on the streets then you need to re-evaluate MMA. Give me specific reasons why you think that MMA techniques would not work on the streets. You don't think that a rear naked choke could be applied on someone in a real actual fight? Or pherhaps a straight arm bar? Why do you think this?
> 
> Also MMA is far from WWE style wrestling. UFC fights are not fixed. No one knows the out come in advance. They really hit and really bleed.


 
I know that this is off topic here but I just thought I'd add my two cents and bow out of this thread. I don't think I ever said that MMA techniques could never work on the street. My only contention is that unless you are bigger, stronger and in better shape grappling may not be a good choice for mounting a defense. This is especially true if your attacker is armed in some way. If you think you are bigger, stronger and in better shape knock yourself out. However, most women, almost all kids and a good sample of many men would be at an extreme disadvantage in any self defense situation involving them having to use grappling techniques to defend themselves. Are there exceptions to the rule? Sure I would imagine there are but let's be realistic here. How well do MMA techniques work against more than one opponent and if all things are equil in the octigon why do they have weight divisions?

I also didn't say that MMA fights are fixed (yet) but as we all know where big money is involved sometimes the motivation to put on a good show to pump up the bottom line makes people act strangely. Nuff said! 

I also want it clear that I understand that MMA fighters really hit and really bleed. That is why I say it is a blood sport. Now to those of you who think that this attitude makes me hypocritical because after all I am a Kenpo teacher... I say this. Yes we also hit and bleed in class but we dont generally do it for money or titles and our intention is not to knock anyone out or choke them senseless. I teach people to defend themselves and I train them to be good at it. If a student comes to me and wants to train for MMA events I generally send them to one of the schools that do that sort of thing. No hard feelings.


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## KempoGuy06

SifuJohnson said:


> I know that this is off topic here but I just thought I'd add my two cents and bow out of this thread. I don't think I ever said that MMA techniques could never work on the street. *My only contention is that unless you are bigger, stronger and in better shape grappling may not be a good choice for mounting a defense.* This is especially true if your attacker is armed in some way. If you think you are bigger, stronger and in better shape knock yourself out. *However, most women, almost all kids and a good sample of many men would be at an extreme disadvantage in any self defense situation involving them having to use grappling techniques to defend themselves.* Are there exceptions to the rule? Sure I would imagine there are but let's be realistic here. How well do MMA techniques work against more than one opponent and if all things are equil in the octigon why do they have weight divisions?
> 
> I also didn't say that MMA fights are fixed (yet) but as we all know where big money is involved sometimes the motivation to put on a good show to pump up the bottom line makes people act strangely. Nuff said!
> 
> I also want it clear that I understand that MMA fighters really hit and really bleed. That is why I say it is a blood sport. Now to those of you who think that this attitude makes me hypocritical because after all I am a Kenpo teacher... I say this. Yes we also hit and bleed in class but we dont generally do it for money or titles and our intention is not to knock anyone out or choke them senseless. I teach people to defend themselves and I train them to be good at it. If a student comes to me and wants to train for MMA events I generally send them to one of the schools that do that sort of thing. No hard feelings.



I dont agree with you completely. The bolded statements are my main argument. 

Any grappling art has many stand up techniques that allow the user to control the enemy and then take them to the ground where they can apply the base of their art. BJJ for example has techniques that are geared towards if some one is throwing a haymaker. You counter by blocking the attack and then throwing your opponent down where you then attain the side mount position with the arm locked and ready to be controled or have an arm bar applied should they still be unwilling to comply after being tossed to the pavement .

Your second statement i disagree with most. Again Ill use BJJ to explain my comment (ive only studied 2 arts SKK and BJJ). Anyway Ive been in BJJ classes and rolled with people that despite me being qutie a bit bigger than them (at 6'4" 250lbs im one of the largest) have taken me completely by suprises and skill levels were the same. Now i know that some people just "get it" a lot quicker than other and that is true in my case but according to your statement my superior size should have comepletely overwhelmed them. Size is great and yes can give you an advantage on the ground, but speed, flexibility and agility can negate and sometime make useless the size of your opponent. 

Just my .02. 

B


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