# WSL methods video



## wckf92 (Jul 23, 2016)

Saw this over on another forum. Some of what this dude says matches what LFJ and Guy have posted in the past. I'm not sure who this person is or who he learned from but I'm guessing since he is in Europe perhaps he took lessons from PB(?). Perhaps LFJ or Guy can clarify.


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## geezer (Jul 23, 2016)

Yeah, I looked him up online. Apparently he's of the Wong Shun Leung-Philip Bayer lineage and operates schools in the Netherlands. I was listening to the video wondering who_ is _this guy speaking something that sounds kinda like German interspersed with phrases in remarkably unaccented English. Dutch, of course! My parents took me to the Netherlands as a boy and one thing I remember is how well many Dutch speak English. It's positively disconcerting to monolingual Americans.


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## Dylan9d (Jul 24, 2016)

His name is Silvano Bonafe, I had a couple of lessons from him and he is a pretty good teacher.

He is a student of Ed Blom and Philip Bayer.

He practices Ving Tsun for over 30 years now.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 26, 2016)

Yet another instructor using the ol "we are a martial science not a sport" argument cunningly disguised as "sport arts like Thai/boxing/kickboxing don't work on the street but ours does". If I visited a school where the instructor said this kinda stuff (especially no sparring until chum Kiu, wtf?) I would make my excuses and leave.


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## geezer (Jul 26, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Yet another instructor using the ol "we are a martial science not a sport" argument cunningly disguised as "sport arts like Thai/boxing/kickboxing don't work on the street but ours does". If I visited a school where the instructor said this kinda stuff (especially no sparring until chum Kiu, wtf?) I would make my excuses and leave.



_Science, not a sport?_ An odd argument to be sure. I always thought that the martial sports were the_ most_ "scientific" disciplines. They are constantly trying new things, then experimenting and testing them in the laboratory of controlled competition. That's a rough approximation of the scientific method. It's also Darwinian. Competition selects for the most successful strategies.

Now the _self-defense, not a sport_ argument makes a little more sense, since the objectives of self defense and competition are different. _Competition_ pits two opponents of roughly similar size and experience against each other in a controlled, "fair" setting with the objective of "winning" as defined by a particular rule-set.

_Self-defense_ is geared at a_voiding, escaping, or at least surviving an attack_ in an unequal situation in which your attacker or attackers _believe_ they have a distinct advantage over you, be that size and strength, numbers, weapons, terrain, etc. The different objective (escape and survival vs. "winning") demands a different approach to training. Of course a very fit, tough MMA fighter would physically and psychologically have a great advantage. But what about a late middle-aged businessman or business woman? Clearly a different teaching method from competition training is indicated. And a different method of _testing _the product. IMO this is what is often missing. 

Perhaps the problem is that WC is presented as both a competitive art _and _self-defense system. I believe it can be both, but they are two different aspects. Guys like Alan Orr are making a great effort to restore WC as a competitive art ...or at least as a component of the competitive mix. Others may prefer to emphasize WC as self-defense. And some try to use the argument that _WC is just for self defense _as an excuse not to _test_ its precepts. I think it's this last position that you and I both find problematic, Saul.


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## geezer (Jul 26, 2016)

@Saul-- One other thing. You really _do_ need Chum Kiu material (steps, turns, and kicks) to spar.

Of course you can start teaching that stuff starting on day one. The form can come later. I'd think a few months of drills and two man of exchanges would be a good amount of time to ingrain the "muscle memory" necessary for controlled free-sparring. Of course you could start sooner, but the result wouldn't be WC. At least in my experience, any less time and people fall back on "old habits" and whatever they've learned previously. Not WC.

If you have had different experiences, please share them!


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 26, 2016)

Disagree, I've had snt level students put on the gloves and be able to have a good basic sparring game after a few months. once they are equipped with basic footwork, 4 gates awareness (and the ability to protect that airspace), basic striking skills and have worked their form(s), drills and sensitivity. I build it up gradually, allow the student to dip their toes into minimal contact sparring with no head shots and gradually increase the pressure over time. To be sure there are students who aren't into sparring (at all) and some who even when at ck level ain't great, but there's more than just forms and drills that give one fighting ability. Like it or not natural attributes can make a big difference regarding timing, aggression and the ability to take a punch and not fold. I've had students who love a good tear up and others who baulk at the idea. To the students that don't want to spar I say "fine, but your training will just result in an untested skill set". 

Obviously if we add the chum Kiu "engine" and it's component parts the student will have more weapons.


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## geezer (Jul 26, 2016)

I said:


geezer said:


> You really _do_ need Chum Kiu material (steps, turns, and kicks) ...The form can come later. I'd think *a few months* of drills and two man of exchanges would be a good amount of time to ingrain the "muscle memory" necessary for controlled free-sparring.


You said:


SaulGoodman said:


> I've had snt level students put on the gloves and be able to have a good basic sparring game after *a few months.* once they are equipped with basic footwork, 4 gates awareness (and the ability to protect that airspace), basic striking skills and have worked their form(s), drills and sensitivity.



I think we are saying pretty much the same thing, i.e._ a few months and basic tools. _I'd include advancing steps, turns, and_ then _a simple front kick. But we teach those along with SNT, even though they first appear in Chum Kiu. Initial sparring is friendly, light contact with no kicks. My group is mostly older guys who most definitely are not training to be like Josh Kaldani! 

BTW have you (or has anyone else) noticed that the "true believer" faction has been absent lately and threads are not dissolving into frustrating and futile arguments?


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 26, 2016)

Yes Geezer, I haven't been around lately and was expecting the usual torrent of abuse from "the usual suspects" as I was making observations about a "VT" instructor. Tell you what though, I was thinking about the whole sparring thing and I think unlike wrestling/judo/jiu jitsu where you can pretty much go full out to test your skills with minimal(ish) risks and know how effective they are, ultimately with striking you have to compromise so much more and have to use an element of speculation to determine whether your skills will be enough.


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## Vajramusti (Jul 26, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Yes Geezer, I haven't been around lately and was expecting the usual torrent of abuse from "the usual suspects" as I was making observations about a "VT" instructor. Tell you what though, I was thinking about the whole sparring thing and I think unlike wrestling/judo/jiu jitsu where you can pretty much go full out to test your skills with minimal(ish) risks and know how effective they are, ultimately with striking you have to compromise so much more and have to use an element of speculation to determine whether your skills will be enough.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a person is good he/she can control the power of the strike and still send a message-depending on the context.
Judo people get injured too- a friend of mine who was top ranked in two countries had broken bones
and a partly paralyzed side of the face.


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## LFJ (Jul 27, 2016)

As WSLVT goes, it's more efficient and reliable to follow the system in sequence, not to skip important stages of development and jump ahead to where unnecessary errors will arise. It may be counterintuitive to some that early sparring will not allow one to reach the goal sooner, but the system is set up in stages for a reason. Followed as prescribed, it results in better quality VT, and in a shorter amount of time. Other systems may differ.


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## Dylan9d (Jul 27, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Yet another instructor using the ol "we are a martial science not a sport" argument cunningly disguised as "sport arts like Thai/boxing/kickboxing don't work on the street but ours does". If I visited a school where the instructor said this kinda stuff (especially no sparring until chum Kiu, wtf?) I would make my excuses and leave.



I know this instructor personally, and it's easy to judge a person based on one video were he tries to promoto his martial art. The guy is very humble and he is a very good instructor.

I don't practice VT but I had a few lessons with him and I consider him as one my friends. So maybe train with someone before you judge.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 27, 2016)

Im very happy you think he's good. I wouldn't train with this guy as I don't like some of the things he says in his clip, no big deal.


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## geezer (Jul 27, 2016)

LFJ said:


> As WSLVT goes, it's more efficient and reliable to follow the system in sequence, not to skip important stages of development and jump ahead to where unnecessary errors will arise. It may be counterintuitive to some that early sparring will not allow one to reach the goal sooner, but the system is set up in stages for a reason. Followed as prescribed, it results in better quality VT, and in a shorter amount of time. Other systems may differ.



I personally _agree _with what you say here and apply the same thinking to instructing within my lineage.

However, it is also useful to consider that WSL fought before he learned Yip Man's VT, he fought while learning VT,  and fought even better after mastering VT. The same is true of anyone who is temperamentally _a fighter. _In the WT lineages, Emin fought as a kid before he studied WT, he fought while training in WT, and continued to fight better after gaining considerable skill in WT. A friend of mine knew Hawkins Cheung. He said that "...that little guy" (Hawkins) "fought from the time he was a kid... _he had to!"_. He didn't wait to learn WC first. The same was probably true for all the WC guys who were fighters.

My point? Just that whatever the ideal instructional progression may be, fighters _will_ fight whether they are "ready" or not!


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## geezer (Jul 27, 2016)

Dylan9d said:


> I don't practice VT but I had a few lessons with him and I consider him as one my friends. So maybe train with someone before you judge.



Yeah. WC/VT people often tend to be quick to pass judgement. We've had a few of those overly judgemental types on this forum. I think Saul would agree with that.


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## Danny T (Jul 27, 2016)

geezer said:


> I personally _agree _with what you say here and apply the same thinking to instructing within my lineage.
> 
> However, it is also useful to consider that WSL fought before he learned Yip Man's VT, he fought while learning VT,  and fought even better after mastering VT. The same is true of anyone who is temperamentally _a fighter. _In the WT lineages, Emin fought as a kid before he studied WT, he fought while training in WT, and continued to fight better after gaining considerable skill in WT. A friend of mine knew Hawkins Cheung. He said that "...that little guy" (Hawkins) "fought from the time he was a kid... _he had to!"_. He didn't wait to learn WC first. The same was probably true for all the WC guys who were fighters.
> 
> My point? Just that whatever the ideal instructional progression may be, fighters _will_ fight whether they are "ready" or not!


My Sifu says some of the people he trained with would not fight while others did and they fought often. They would train for a few weeks then out on the streets of Hong Kong they would fight. Lot of gangs so finding someone to fight was easy. Win or lose they would go back to the school assess what worked, what didn't work, and why. Train it and back out onto the streets again. Those who didn't fight much or at all weren't looked down upon but they also didn't get the same attention from Jiu Sifu as those who did in training. Jiu would scold them for fighting but worked more with them and was far more upset if they lost than at them for fighting. If someone lost a fight he would punish them by making them do additional exercises to burn out their arms and legs before training. So they would always say they won but if not he'd some how always found out and then the training was even harder.
There are those who will fight and those who will just train.


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## Dylan9d (Jul 28, 2016)

So what I'm tasting here is a bit of "if you never fought, your ****" flavour?

What a load of ********, sorry Saul and Geezer but do you both fight every day in the street? DannyT do you honour your teacher by doing the same by fighting in the street?

LMAO


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## Danny T (Jul 28, 2016)

Dylan9d said:


> So what I'm tasting here is a bit of "if you never fought, your ****" flavour?
> 
> What a load of ********, sorry Saul and Geezer but do you both fight every day in the street? DannyT do you honour your teacher by doing the same by fighting in the street?
> 
> LMAO


I think you are reading for more into this than what is being expressed.


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## wckf92 (Jul 28, 2016)

For the record...I created this thread because aside from vids of PB posted by LFJ and Guy (to explain their WSL stuff to us) I'd never run across anything else. I thought it was interesting that the guy in this video seems to echo a lot (if not all) of what we've read from LFJ and Guy posts. And if I recall correctly, LFJ actually stated once that in the WSL line (i.e. WSL - PB - others...) the material, thinking, strategy, methods, etc are seamlessly passed on as each generation absorbs their VT. To me, that is interesting...because it seems to be a stand-alone characteristic when compared to other lineages of WC. Most seem to change or adapt or modify...and hence pass down something different. 
Anyway, hopefully this thread won't circle the drain...


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## geezer (Jul 28, 2016)

Dylan9d said:


> So what I'm tasting here is a bit of "if you never fought, your ****" flavour?
> 
> What a load of ********, sorry Saul and Geezer but do you both* fight every day in the street?* DannyT do you honour your teacher by doing the same by fighting in the street?
> 
> LMAO



Fight every day? _Absolutely._ Except Sundays ...that's family time. I frequently go out and patrol the inner city alleys in just my boxer shorts so it's clear that I'm unarmed, and provoke confrontations with groups of heavily armed gang-bangers just to keep my edge. 

Last night at 3 am I shut down a really noisy party over on the West Side and one rough looking guy (about 7' 2" tall, 430 lbs.) tried sticking a 12 gauge in my mouth to shut me up. Just used my "iron jaw" technique to bite down and crimp the barrel shut. When he pulled the trigger, the breach blew and the blast knocked him unconscious, not to mention his serious injuries from the shrapnel. My Iron-Shirt training kept me unharmed although _my ears have been ringing _all day. Pity to ruin a nice old Remington 870 pump like that, but the idiot had already sawed-off the barrel, so no guilt.  




OK now back to reality. _Seriously,_ Dylan, WTF????

Here's what I said above:


geezer said:


> ...initial sparring is friendly, light contact with no kicks. My group is mostly older guys who most definitely are not training to be like Josh Kaldani!



...I mentioned that I approve of occasional light, controlled-contact sparring (actually we use with headgear with face grills) so that even older guys like me and my group can play freely with our techniques without risking injury. What does that have to do with_ fighting? 
_
Honestly, if I'm expressing myself that poorly, I going to have to take some remedial writing classes! 

So I hope I cleared _that_ up. . ..Oh, and BTW it's my birthday today!!! I just made it to 61.


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## KPM (Jul 28, 2016)

^^^^ Good video.  Thanks for sharing.  But you know what?  I think he definitely did a Tan Da at the beginning and a couple of times near the end!   

I agree with his comments about beginning to  spar too early.  But I disagree with his comments about using protective gear so one can make real contact.


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## KPM (Jul 28, 2016)

geezer said:


> Oh, and BTW it's my birthday today!!! I just made it to 61.



Happy birthday Steve!


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 28, 2016)

geezer said:


> So I hope I cleared _that_ up. . ..Oh, and BTW it's my birthday today!!! I just made it to 61.



Happy birthday!


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## geezer (Jul 28, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ Good video.  Thanks for sharing.  But you know what?  I think he *definitely did a Tan Da* at the beginning and a couple of times near the end!



_Impossible!_ You did *not *see him do an inside gate tan-da _at precisely 11:25_ on the video, because we have been told that WSL VT doesn't really use tan-da!


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## Danny T (Jul 28, 2016)

geezer said:


> Oh, and BTW it's my birthday today!!! I just made it to 61.





geezer said:


> _Impossible!_ You did *not *see him do an inside gate tan-da _at precisely 11:25_ on the video, because we have been told that WSL VT doesn't really use tan-da!


I had noted that as well but knew that had to be incorrect.


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## JPinAZ (Jul 28, 2016)

Hope no one watches any David Peterson clips, he uses and demos tan-da quite often! 
Gary Lam as well... lol

On to better news - happy birthday Steve!


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 28, 2016)

Dylan9d said:


> So what I'm tasting here is a bit of "if you never fought, your ****" flavour?
> 
> What a load of ********, sorry Saul and Geezer but do you both fight every day in the street? DannyT do you honour your teacher by doing the same by fighting in the street?
> 
> LMAO


Of course not, if I went to a school and the instructor claimed to have had dozens of street fights I would question his mindset/mental state and not train there. I personally HATE the whole "cobra Kai" no mercy on the street sh@t, it's just not healthy. A while back I had a guy come up to my class who clearly didn't want to learn wing chun but test his skills (Thai) against mine. I politely told him to "get the f&ck out of my kwoon, we are adults here it's not a playground". He duly picked up his gear and left, had he physically attacked me or my students then sure, I would have gone defcon 5 on him but until that point there's no need for physicallity. Dylan, no ones saying you have to go out fighting to prove your skills but I don't think anyone here would disagree that you must pressure test your skills in order to have something functional in real fighting. I don't endorse the blind faith "if Sifu says it works in the street then I don't need to test it". Problem is, Sifu won't be there outside the kebab shop went some scrub is trying to rip your head off.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 28, 2016)

Btw happy birthday Steve, you old geezer you!


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 28, 2016)

JPinAZ said:


> Hope no one watches any David Peterson clips, he uses and demos tan-da quite often!
> Gary Lam as well... lol
> 
> On to better news - happy birthday Steve!


David Peterson is a super nice nice guy, very humble and unassuming with great skills. Met him at a seminar a few years ago, although I'm not a WSL guy (and some would say HE isn't a real WSL guy) he was happy to play chi Sao with me and hang out a bit after the seminar. Top guy imo


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## Callen (Jul 29, 2016)

JPinAZ said:


> Hope no one watches any David Peterson clips, he uses and demos tan-da quite often!
> Gary Lam as well... lol


Yeah, the Tan Da is not off limits in the WSL community.


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## KPM (Jul 29, 2016)

^^^^ It is according to some local experts!!!!


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## Vajramusti (Jul 29, 2016)

KPM said:


> Happy birthday Steve!


Happy birthday Geezer. You are a young chap


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## Callen (Jul 29, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ It is according to some local experts!!!!


Fortunately, I missed that debate.


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## LFJ (Jul 30, 2016)

KPM said:


> But you know what?  I think he definitely did a Tan Da at the beginning and a couple of times near the end!



The problem is not with _taan-da_. It is that you don't understand the training methods and goal of VT and misinterpret what_ taan-da_ is training.


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## KPM (Jul 30, 2016)

LFJ said:


> The problem is not with _taan-da_. It is that you don't understand the training methods and goal of VT and misinterpret what_ taan-da_ is training.



I distinctly remember someone writing that there is no Tan Da in WSLVT.


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## SaulGoodman (Jul 30, 2016)

LFJ said:


> The problem is not with _taan-da_. It is that you don't understand the training methods and goal of VT and misinterpret what_ taan-da_ is training.





 
C'mon LFJ do you really need to always come across so mean? We all use our "tools" in different ways, why is that so hard for you to accept?


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## guy b (Jul 31, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Saw this over on another forum. Some of what this dude says matches what LFJ and Guy have posted in the past. I'm not sure who this person is or who he learned from but I'm guessing since he is in Europe perhaps he took lessons from PB(?). Perhaps LFJ or Guy can clarify.



I have never met him.

Why would you be surprised that what he says matches what LFJ and I have said in the past? I have never met LFJ either.


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## guy b (Jul 31, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> For the record...I created this thread because aside from vids of PB posted by LFJ and Guy (to explain their WSL stuff to us) I'd never run across anything else. I thought it was interesting that the guy in this video seems to echo a lot (if not all) of what we've read from LFJ and Guy posts. And if I recall correctly, LFJ actually stated once that in the WSL line (i.e. WSL - PB - others...) the material, thinking, strategy, methods, etc are seamlessly passed on as each generation absorbs their VT. To me, that is interesting...because it seems to be a stand-alone characteristic when compared to other lineages of WC. Most seem to change or adapt or modify...and hence pass down something different.
> Anyway, hopefully this thread won't circle the drain...



I suggest going to a WSL VT teacher to find out more. By this I don't mean Gary Lam, David Peterson, or the various others who have changed things or never received them. In WSL VT the understanding is common across groups. The reason is obvious.


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## guy b (Jul 31, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> View attachment 20016
> C'mon LFJ do you really need to always come across so mean? We all use our "tools" in different ways, why is that so hard for you to accept?




I think it is easy enough to accept that other systems are not VT. No problem, use whatever you like however you like.


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## guy b (Jul 31, 2016)

geezer said:


> Yeah. WC/VT people often tend to be quick to pass judgement. We've had a few of those overly judgemental types on this forum. I think Saul would agree with that.



Very sorry for having beliefs


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## guy b (Jul 31, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If a person is good he/she can control the power of the strike and still send a message-depending on the context.
> Judo people get injured too- a friend of mine who was top ranked in two countries had broken bones
> and a partly paralyzed side of the face.



Judo is one of the most injurious sports in existence. Bjj is much kinder to the body. I would only suggest beginning judo to children, teens and sub 25yr adults. Any later and you are very unlikely to get good at it and you will probably hurt yourself badly. Likely to do more harm than good. It is a young person's martial art.


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## LFJ (Jul 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> I distinctly remember someone writing that there is no Tan Da in WSLVT.



What _taan-da _is to you, no, there is not.



SaulGoodman said:


> View attachment 20016
> C'mon LFJ do you really need to always come across so mean? We all use our "tools" in different ways, why is that so hard for you to accept?



Me?

KPM's always trying to prove something about a system he knows nothing about. 

Not only is he unaccepting of what he's told by those who know it, he's too proud to even ask what he's looking at. He'd rather define it himself. But he's wrong.


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## KPM (Jul 31, 2016)




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## guy b (Jul 31, 2016)

What are you rolling your eyes about? You do it in this very thread.

I am very happy to accept what you tell me about your system. It makes no sense whatsoever that you also wish to tell me about my own system, given that you don't know and are unwilling to learn anything about it.


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## KPM (Jul 31, 2016)




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## geezer (Jul 31, 2016)

LFJ said:


> What _taan-da _is to you (KPM), no, there is not.
> 
> ...KPM's always trying to prove something about a system he knows nothing about  ....he's too proud to even ask what he's looking at.



Well, _I'm _not too proud to ask for clarification on this, since you are offering. When I look at the videoclip from the OP at 11:25 I see the instructor advancing and attacking with a left and then a right inside gate _tan-da_ that looks identical to the way I've seen it applied by many other VT and WC groups. What am I missing here?


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## guy b. (Jul 31, 2016)

geezer said:


> Well, _I'm _not too proud to ask for clarification on this, since you are offering. When I look at the videoclip from the OP at 11:25 I see the instructor advancing and attacking with a left and then a right inside gate _tan-da_ that looks identical to the way I've seen it applied by many other VT and WC groups. What am I missing here?



What are they doing in that part of the clip?


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## geezer (Jul 31, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What are they doing in that part of the clip?



I've already made it clear that I took it to be a fairly typical attacking/defending drill as seen practiced in many VT/WC clubs. So to avoid wasting _more_ time, why don't you answer your rhetorical question and then enlighten us as to why this is any different than the way most VT/WC people use tan-da?


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## wckf92 (Jul 31, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What are they doing in that part of the clip?



 I think this is what Geezer is asking you to answer


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## Danny T (Jul 31, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What are they doing in that part of the clip?


Now that is a excellent and informative answer.

What are they doing...
Really not much as for a real attack.
They both in a left lead the attacker steps forward and throws a weak uncommitted midline horizontal swinging type of right arm strike and the defender sets in with a left inside tan and right da. As soon as the tan is engaged the attacker swings a left arm doing the same type strike and the defender converts to a right inside tan and a left da and the attacker falls down.


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## KPM (Jul 31, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> I think this is what Geezer is asking you to answer



And so it begins.


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## LFJ (Aug 1, 2016)

Shifting _taan-da _in training simultaneously works both elbows linked with hips for two different punches, power, and body symmetry. One arm guides the other. When shifting to the opposite side, elbows are alternated. Inner becomes outer; outer becomes inner. Focus is on elbows (with hips) not hands. It's not an application for standing in the pocket and chasing arms left and right. It's not an application at all. It's abstract development of one's own mechanics. Focus on the hands and you see block and punch applications. Focus on the elbows and you see two separate punches being trained. In fighting, two arms work in rotation, not parallel like _chi-sau_.


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## guy b (Aug 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> I've already made it clear that I took it to be a fairly typical attacking/defending drill as seen practiced in many VT/WC clubs. So to avoid wasting _more_ time, why don't you answer your rhetorical question and then enlighten us as to why this is any different than the way most VT/WC people use tan-da?



My reply was going to be along the lines of why bother? People here seem to feel that VT owes them something in terms of technical information, but also wish to criticise rather than listen. Not really a good atmosphere to pass on info.

LFJ was obviously feeling more charitable, good for him


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## Danny T (Aug 1, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Shifting _taan-da _in training simultaneously works both elbows linked with hips for two different punches, power, and body symmetry. One arm guides the other. When shifting to the opposite side, elbows are alternated. Inner becomes outer; outer becomes inner. Focus is on elbows (with hips) not hands. It's not an application for standing in the pocket and chasing arms left and right. It's not an application at all. It's abstract development of one's own mechanics. Focus on the hands and you see block and punch applications. Focus on the elbows and you see two separate punches being trained. In fighting, two arms work in rotation, not parallel like _chi-sau_.


Maybe not all but I feel most wc practitioners with any real understanding of wing chun could agree for the most part. As to the elbows anyway.
There are some  different aspects of the forearm and hand structure that could also be applied but then it would no long be a tan.


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## Danny T (Aug 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> My reply was going to be along the lines of why bother?


Then why bother to enter the conversation?


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## guy b (Aug 1, 2016)

Same reason you guys do- there definitely isn't a lot of technical info being exchanged here

I'm very happy to talk, just don't see a lot of mileage in this particular kind of exchange. There have been so many bad threads


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## wckf92 (Aug 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> there definitely isn't a lot of technical info being exchanged here



ummm...yeah....especially when you respond to a question with a question


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## guy b (Aug 1, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> ummm...yeah....especially when you respond to a question with a question



Honest questions are welcome. Questions that are phrased to sound as if they are part of the long and boring forum feud don't inspire or motivate much.


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## wckf92 (Aug 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> Honest questions are welcome.



Understood. 
So, you think Geezer is dishonest with his questioning. Brilliant.


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## guy b (Aug 1, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Understood.
> So, you think Geezer is dishonest with his questioning. Brilliant.



Nothing against him in particular, although when he says things like this:



> _Impossible!_ You did *not *see him do an inside gate tan-da _at precisely 11:25_ on the video, because we have been told that WSL VT doesn't really use tan-da!



or this



> Yeah. WC/VT people often tend to be quick to pass judgement. We've had a few of those overly judgemental types on this forum. I think Saul would agree with that.



It does seem like the continuation of the battle is more important than talking about VT.

In fact the very premise of this thread- somebody actually agrees with those guys we all like to troll- can it be real (nudge nudge), its just a bit wearysome and doesn't inspire much effort back.

Don't worry though, carry on


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## KPM (Aug 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> In fact the very premise of this thread- somebody actually agrees with those guys we all like to troll- can it be real (nudge nudge), its just a bit wearysome and doesn't inspire much effort back.



Could it be that you have so "over-stated" your arguments in the past, and actively trolled others yourself, that your credibility is in question?  Hence the reactions on this thread?  Just sayin.......


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## dudewingchun (Aug 2, 2016)

Op's video makes sense. Seems like a good version of Wing chun.


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