# Adrenal Response and Gross Motor Skills



## WindsorMAGuy28 (Aug 22, 2004)

This question is for those that have gone through programs such as Peyton Quinn's RMCAT. Its been said  that when the body enters Fight-or-Flight response  to a threat, fine motor skills go out the window. If you can learn to cpntrol the adrenaline dump, can fine motor skill be executed? Also, what types of martial techniques aer classified as fine motor skills?


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 22, 2004)

i havent gone through the program the program that you speak of, but my knowledge is based on my study of physiology in school. "Most" people mistake the effects of an adrenaline dump as fear, and this is what tends to make them lose their composure in a self defense situation.the reality of what is happening is, the body is preparing itself to move in a manner that might require explosive speed (flight or defense), strength, and the release of endorphins as a pain killer(who has been hit in the heat of battle and not noticed the effects until after all was said and done). in my humble opinion, i think all martial movements are classed as fine motor skills. that is why we train repeatedly, in order to make our bodies move with little "conscious" effort. fine motor skills can be executed IF you train in such a way that you recognize the effects of adrenaline yet maintain a clear mind and allow your body to "act" in the manner which you train.

shawn


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## Paul Genge (Aug 26, 2004)

There are definately two camps on this subject.  One believes anything more complicated than a right cross or an elbow strike will fail under the presure of adrenaline the other believe that repetitive training can give us instinctive reactions that will work no matter what the situation.  To a point both are right.

When we experience adrenaline the body becomes focused on one of two things. Either fighting or running.  Various physiological effects happen to the body that prepare it for those two events. When first experienced these changes can freak out the person experiencing them.  They will then either freeze or find fine motor skills more difficult.  The thing is in the case of fine motor skills you do not notice the effect until you analyze what you did after the event is over.  The reason for this is the body moves appropriately to the state it is in at the time.

One of the things that can have a positive effect on the use of fine motor skills is your experience of the effects of adrenaline and of being in conflict.  With the correct training it is possible to carry out complex physical tasks in the heat of battle.  (Just look at soldiers clearing weapons in a fire fight).  The big question is what sort of training produces this ability. 

One route is to repeat the task under all sorts of physical and phycological presure.  This route works great with tasks like clearing a weapon because it is pretty much the same thing every time you do it.  Fighting hand to hand is different because every time you are in a situation the variables will be different.  No one attacks in a set way.  

Because of this the training should be varied and concentrate on applying principles and not techniques to a variety of situations.  Also practicing with physical restrictions will help calm your mind and develop a more creative approach to fighting.  Use tough exercise drills to push your physical limits.  This way you will learn to strengthen you psyci so that if you start to doubt yourself you can push on regardless.  Last of all, but probably most important. Learn to breath.  Fear and aggression often cause you to stop breathing and hold your breath.  This not only tires the body, but increases fear and the effects of adrenaline.  

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 26, 2004)

I did RMCAT a couple of times. I think a fine motor skill would be, for example, an attempt at striking a pressure point, probably wrist locks.

This is just my personal opinion, but I'd guess that the more times you've done a particular strike in your training, the more likely it is to come out in a fight.

The adrenal stress training I did concentrated on eye strikes with the fingers in a beak-like position, knee strikes, and palm strikes. But the more advanced martial arts students found it hard NOT to throw, for instance, a roundhouse kick to the head when it seemed appropriate. But I'd hate to be relying on a wrist lock in a sweaty or bloody fight.

It was great training, btw.


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## bignick (Aug 26, 2004)

another point to training over and over is to try and remain calm...when you start getting an adrenalin boost insticts start to take over, like mentioned before adrenalin does great things for you in short term...but there are downsides too, like tunnel vision...not to mention that adrenalin doesn't last forever and after it's gone you'll be even more tired and worn...try to train so you don't lose control...


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## DeLamar.J (Aug 27, 2004)

WindsorMAGuy28 said:
			
		

> This question is for those that have gone through programs such as Peyton Quinn's RMCAT. Its been said  that when the body enters Fight-or-Flight response  to a threat, fine motor skills go out the window. If you can learn to cpntrol the adrenaline dump, can fine motor skill be executed? Also, what types of martial techniques aer classified as fine motor skills?


I have not gone through this course that you speak of, but I can answer some of your questions. 
Fine motor skills can still be executed while the adrenaline(chi) in pumping if you have practiced enough Basics and Kata. Part of the reason for Basics and Kata are for muscle memory, that way, when you are in a fight and your adrenaline(chi) starts to pump, you can still retain your technique and just flow with the adrenaline(chi).
If you loose your technique durring a fight, then you have not put enough time into your Basics and Kata to have gained good muscle memory, if the techniques do not flow in the heat of battle, then you need to practice more. Martial arts is exactly that, an art, and learning an art form takes time and dedication. It does work if you have trained hard, and properly.
 You have to get to a point in your art where you are flowing without thinking, and your techniques just appear before you even realized you have done them. A martial artist also gets to a point where once they have attained solid basic technique, they will slightly modify the techniques to fit there personal style and body, once this level is reached, you will begin to flow and relax, even while the adrenaline is flowing. But if these techniques are not based of the very basic principles then your just un doing all the work you have done. The adrenaline or chi as I like to call it (chi is just a fancy word for adrenaline) is your best friend or your worst enemy, it can consume you or complete you. The reason why alot of street fighters will whip some martial artists is because they are feeling the adrenaline, and just going with the flow, because even though they have poor technique, they just let loose as give it to you, while your concentrating to hard. Once you gain solid technique where you can flow, your techniques will win the fight for you.


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## Gaidheal (Sep 27, 2004)

I find it interesting that you seem to equate adrenaline with 'chi' or 'ki'.  What is your basis for this?

I agree that fine-motor-skill techniques can indeed be executed while adrenaline is flowing; my proviso would be that you need to train in such a way as to have the adrenaline flowing whilst you practice them.  In this way you can gradually improve your ability to 'cope' with adrenaline and ultimately, perhaps, not even really be disadvantaged by it.  I don't know anyone who has achieved that, though.  Black Belts included.  For myself, if I have the slightest doubt about my ability to pull off a technique under stress I am not going to risk it, but rather stick to the basics; as I observed in another thread and someone noted above, it's hard to go wrong with an elbow strike.

I do disagree with you on a couple of points though, at the risk of gross hubris:

Actually using your techniques in a fight is not an ART but a SKILL.  This is why we don't need inherent talent to improve, but rather practice and dedication.  It's also why it is worthwhile analyzing techniques in a scientific manner and then using what is learnt to improve them - e.g. power delivery.

A person should adapt techniques to themselves pretty much from the MOMENT they learn them.  Obviously they need to learn the correct technique, not simply say "I like this better" with no solid basis for evaluating it, but equally, you do not need to be a BB to decide whether a technique is worth your time practicing.  Also, I would say that an effective fighter does more than slightly modify.  He personalizes, he improvizes and he discards what does not work for him / he doesn't like to use.

Anyway... just my thoughts and opinions on the topic.

John


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## 8253 (Sep 27, 2004)

There are certain ways to control these responses such as muscle memory, combat breathing, etc.  Its just a matter of finding the one thing or combination of things that works for you.  No matter how many control tools a person uses to combat these symptoms, it will never completely solve the problem.  It is a natural process that cannot be completely reversed.


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