# inteview of tkd blackbelt



## jayfrasier

Hi everybody.  About two weeks ago, I found an interview on a Kenpo school's website of a student who had already received a black belt in Taekwondo.  In the interview, the guy talked about how he preferred Kenpo to tkd, how he was happy that his kids were learning Kenpo, and about how he did not mind starting over as a white belt.  Anyway, I cannot find that website or the interview now.  Do any of you know the URL for this site?  Would you either post it or send it to me?  I would really appreciate it!

Jay Frasier
frasierj@lanecc.edu


----------



## Yeti

Well, I'm about a year late with this follow up, but I think what you are looking for is Christopher Geary's website.  He instructs Shaolin Kempo (though I don't think it's related to the Villari or Castro lineages...).  Anyhow, the website is:  http://www.kempokarate.com/

Hope that helps.

-Mike


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Yeti said:
			
		

> Well, I'm about a year late with this follow up, but I think what you are looking for is Christopher Geary's website. He instructs Shaolin Kempo (though I don't think it's related to the Villari or Castro lineages...). Anyhow, the website is: http://www.kempokarate.com/
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> -Mike


Man, this guy is just full of himself, the "Official portrait of the Founder"  LOL.     I really need to get some of this paper all these guys are handing out so I can be a Hanshi, Soke, Grandmaster, and  all that jazz.

DarK LorD


----------



## pete

don't sweat it bubba, i think dark lord status outranks them all...


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

pete said:
			
		

> don't sweat it bubba, i think dark lord status outranks them all...


LOL, but I need some cool certs. to hang on my walls in my apartment, they are so bare, and then I could have some braggin' rights like that Wu Shen Pai guy in Las Vegas LOL.     Dark Lord status was easy to get, I want something with a challenge, you know, costs $425 for that 10th Dan cert. in "Swing your Weiner" style  LOL.

DarK LorD


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Yeti said:
			
		

> Well, I'm about a year late with this follow up, but I think what you are looking for is Christopher Geary's website. He instructs Shaolin Kempo (though I don't think it's related to the Villari or Castro lineages...). Anyhow, the website is: http://www.kempokarate.com/
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> -Mike


This is even a little beyond me even LOL. Look at the office and then ck out the picture of the Presidential Seal being pinned to the Founder's chair. Also ck out the license plate at the bottom. OMG, what a megalomaniac.

http://www.kempokarate.com/locations/pacific_street.cfm

DarK LorD


----------



## Kosho-Monk

This guy is way over the top!  He obviously has way to much money!


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> This guy is way over the top! He obviously has way to much money!


There's nothing wrong with earning a lot of money teaching martial arts, I would love to, but extreme narcissism is a whole other issue, and this is as megalomaniacal as you can get.

DarK LorD


----------



## KenpoDave

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> LOL, but I need some cool certs. to hang on my walls in my apartment, they are so bare, and then I could have some braggin' rights like that Wu Shen Pai guy in Las Vegas LOL.     Dark Lord status was easy to get, I want something with a challenge, you know, costs $425 for that 10th Dan cert. in "Swing your Weiner" style  LOL.
> 
> DarK LorD



Clyde,

For $424.99 I will make you the Dark Knight Protector of the True Way of Kenpo.  For another $424.99 the True Way Organization will recognize you as founder and grand soke of Cisotic Kenpo. artyon: 

I take checks or money orders...


----------



## KenpoDave

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> There's nothing wrong with earning a lot of money teaching martial arts, I would love to, but extreme narcissism is a whole other issue, and this is as megalomaniacal as you can get.
> 
> DarK LorD



I would say his cup is full.

Of himself...


----------



## Yeti

You know, I'd visited that site once or twice before, but I hadn't seen the photo of the "official chair pinning" ceremony.  lol...that is absolutely fantastic.


----------



## Thunderbolt

Yeti said:
			
		

> Well, I'm about a year late with this follow up, but I think what you are looking for is Christopher Geary's website. He instructs Shaolin Kempo (though I don't think it's related to the Villari or Castro lineages...). Anyhow, the website is: http://www.kempokarate.com/
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> -Mike


Mike ,

you didn't pay much attention to his own *portray* founder in 2001. This guy was in Nick Cerio's school. How do I know.?

all you have to do is to look at *founder portray in 2001* and you should see a patch on his right *hand* *****hint******

Nick Cerio's school in Canada shows the same patch. go figure. Who knows? this guy MAY come from Canada


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> There's nothing wrong with earning a lot of money teaching martial arts, I would love to, but extreme narcissism is a whole other issue, and this is as megalomaniacal as you can get.
> 
> DarK LorD


Yeah, I don't care that he makes a lot of money, but lining his office in gold is just more than I can handle. Hey, if there are people out there, and we all know there are, that will fall for his line of BS, then more power to him.

And for the record I will officially recognize anyone in any art for $5000. I have a nice printer at home and can assure you a very nice looking cert. for your wall.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Clyde,
> 
> For $424.99 I will make you the Dark Knight Protector of the True Way of Kenpo. For another $424.99 the True Way Organization will recognize you as founder and grand soke of Cisotic Kenpo. artyon:
> 
> I take checks or money orders...


OK, as long as you make it in some dollars that are less than US LOL

http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi

DarK LorD


----------



## clapping_tiger

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> Mike ,
> 
> you didn't pay much attention to his own *portray* founder in 2001. This guy was in Nick Cerio's school. How do I know.?
> 
> all you have to do is to look at *founder portray in 2001* and you should see a patch on his right *hand* *****hint******
> 
> Nick Cerio's school in Canada shows the same patch. go figure. Who knows? this guy MAY come from Canada



Or, you could do what I did and just look at the Lineage page and do it the easy way. Just playing. :ultracool

Well, you gotta say one thing. It is a beautiful school. The whole Founder thing is a little cult like don't you think? I wonder if they call him the Founder in school.


----------



## Pacificshore

Though must admit.....he does have a very cool dojo, and is evident that his student population is pay'n for it


----------



## clapping_tiger

LOL, I think he can learn a little something from his own words. The first line in his quote.

http://www.kempokarate.com/shihan/index3.cfm


----------



## bignick

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> LOL, I think he can learn a little something from his own words. The first line in his quote.
> 
> http://www.kempokarate.com/shihan/index3.cfm


  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## The Kai

"What normally takes 30 years of intensive study in 1 style, he has done in less than 10 years in three styles", Are the bells going off yet?

Todd


----------



## MA-Caver

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> This guy is way over the top!  He obviously has way to much money!


Well hell, he's *got* to have money in order to pay for his 24kt. gold (plated) office... geez, you'd think a can of gold flex paint would've done the job. What made me giggle was that I accidently right clicked on the page and it was javascript protected so I couldn't copy the page text .... even if I were so inclined.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

OK. Here's the question that I'm sure some of you must be asking yourselves.... How much money did he pay Sonny Gascon and Lou Angel for his promotions? I don't personally know either one of these well-known martial artists, but if the guy came up with some serious cash I wouldn't blame them for giving him a cert.

Does anyone here know Chris Geary?


----------



## The Kai

That office is just way over the top!!!

How much is he fleecing the public// Anybody see the continous ladder of belts??
Like the gold statues, wonder if he runs a dojo in all that mess?
Todd


----------



## shane23ss

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> LOL, but I need some cool certs. to hang on my walls in my apartment, they are so bare, and then I could have some braggin' rights like that Wu Shen Pai guy in Las Vegas LOL. Dark Lord status was easy to get, I want something with a challenge, you know, costs $425 for that 10th Dan cert. in "Swing your Weiner" style LOL.
> 
> DarK LorD


What you could do is take your AK, change it to "Dark Kenpo" become the founder, then change it again to "Lord Kenpo" become the founder, then yet again change it to "Dark Lord Kenpo" become the founder and you can be the Founder/Creator/SGM of 3 systems in 3 days.


----------



## Danjo

Is it my imagination or did this guy try to copyright the term "Shaolin Kempo" with the little cirlce R sign ? Er...isn't this a rather old term first used by William Chow?


----------



## DavidCC

Let me try to address some of these "questions"... I've been a student at his schools for over 2 years (although not directly under Geary).


money and decoration - CNG's schools use 6 and 12 month contracts.  Adult students pay about $80/month, children slightly less.  Testing fees are $25 for every rank.  So yes the school is decorated nicely  (some don't like the gold but it's his school so he can style it however he likes) but is that an outrageously high price? No it is not.  I've been to more expensive schools that had crappy burber carpet that smelled like rank feet... it is nice to train in a place that doesnt feel or smell like a locker room.

"Continuous ladder of belts" :  first dan black is the 10th rank you achieve.  I think this is about average.  That display has 19 belts on it, with first black being right in the middle, 10th at the top, white at the bottom. What's wrong with that? I've seen school that have 20 promotions to get 1st dan, and $250 each promotion!!!  Tell me why 10 ranks / $25 is so bad.

Gascon and Angel don't sell ranks.  If you think they do then why don't you ask them about it... I think Geary might have paid the airfare from Hawaii when Sijo Gascon came out here.  Some at NCk like to lie about it, but Cerio promoted Geary to 1st dan - not an acknowledgment of rank, but a promotion, and I posted proof in the "Shaolin Kempo" variations thread.  For anyone at NCK who wants to argue about legitimacy of ranks, first answer "Who gave Pesare his black belts"?

We don't refer to him as "Founder" in conversation, in conversation we refer to him as "Shihan" the same way my instructor is always "Sensei".  In our certificates and documents he is often referred to as "The Founder" though. He created his own variant of SK and opened a chain of chools so he is the founder of all that.

cross-ranking - Above 1st black Geary's Kempo advances through learning the same kata's as found in Tenshi Goju Kai.  So as one learns those katas they can be eligible for rank in Tenshi Goju Kai.  And when apprporiate, Lou Angel will test and promote people who have earned it.  So there is a lot of overlap between CNG's Kempo and Tenshi Goju so cross ranking recognizes that, it is not a totally seperate art learned in a vacuum.  Also, the style comes from Geary's initial exposure to Villari, then influenced by NCK and Goju.  I have spent a number of hours comparing and this is my opinion based on what I have learned and observed. KGS BBS recognizes CNG's style as a linear descendant of KGS, and recognized Geary as performing at 6th degree skill, so they ranked him.  You have every right to second guess Sonny Gascon and who he chooses to promote, after all each of you is as experienced as he, yes?

kosho-monk said "but if the guy came up with some serious cash I wouldn't blame them for giving him a cert."  Does this mean you would also have no qualms about buying yourself some rank, since you say you would sell it for enough money?  k-m = hypocrite.


"chair pinning" there was no ceremony, I think he got a new camera that week and was taking pictures of everything form putting a headrest on his chair to the grass growing outside the dojo... some of that stuff is a little tongue-in-cheek you just have to not take yourself so seriously to get it. 


"he has way too much money" - how much money are we each allowed to have?  And how may we spend it?  Please point me to the rule book, I missed it...

copyrighting "Shaolin Kempo" : what is copyrighted is the name "Christopher N Geary's Shaolin Chuan'fa" as the name of the curriculum and "Christopher N Geary's Kempo Karate" is the name of the corporate entity.


Geary's style and presentation might not be to everyone's taste, but well-respected people, people with impeccable credentials - have tested him and ranked him.  Some of you choose to then impeach those who are otherwise impeccable, that is your choice. It is easy to flame anything on the internet, any loser can get his jollies doing so.  The internet dogpile is a common pass-time and means very little.


----------



## The Kai

Again you learn USSD katas up to black, Goju Katas (like sanchin, suriepei) from 1st to 5th dan, and then start in with Karazempo Kata after 5th dan??  There is a lot of jumping around going on.  
As the founder of a new style waht is the stylist differences between the this style and the UDSSD/Goju/karazempo mix?

I know I am stepping on your toes, and I apologize if I am hurting your fellings.  

Here's a little co-incidence for ya'

http://www.karazenpogoshinjutsu.com/photos-misc2.htm

Todd


----------



## Kosho-Monk

David,

It seems that some of us have upset you. Perhaps you should not take yourself so seriously and see that many of us are poking fun at the fact that Chris's website seems to portray him as someone who is really into himself.

Again, I don't care how much money he has and what his dojo looks like. I don't train there and never will. But I do have the right to voice my opinion of it. He has it posted on the World Wide Web so he should be prepared for this kind of "feedback".

No, I would not buy rank or sell it - that was a joke. Perhaps I need to use more of these little smiley faces to get that across.

If Lou Angel and Sonny Gascon promoted Chris based on his martial abilities than so be it. Perhaps it really only took Chris 10 years to get himself to the same level as the majority of people who have been training 20-30 years or longer. I doubt it, but I am skeptical by nature. Maybe I'll meet him someday and be able to judge for myself. 

Well, I've said enough... back to the bottom of the meaningless dogpile.


-John


----------



## DavidCC

no , my feelings aren't hurt and I'm not upset LOL  but some of the statements you guys were making were going into the realm of ridiculous and the just plain made-up BS so I thought I would address some of it.  I thoguht my post was calm but direct :/

I'm not a black belt yet and I don't know the whole system... but it's not so disjointed as you make it sound.  We have 10 kata to get to black, they are based on KGS and NCK forms (go read any of Prof. Shuras posts about pinan genealogy and you will quickly go cross-eyed, ours is part of that heredity).  

Above black we have goju kata (seisan, suparanpei, others whose spelling I could butcher worse) and more KGS kata (Statue of the crane, 2 man sets etc).   I've watched USSD videos and NCK videos and CNG's bears a stronger resemblance to NCK than it does to USSD.


----------



## Danjo

DavidCC said:
			
		

> copyrighting "Shaolin Kempo" : what is copyrighted is the name "Christopher N Geary's Shaolin Chuan'fa" as the name of the curriculum and "Christopher N Geary's Kempo Karate" is the name of the corporate entity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not what it says on his web page. I don't see Chuan Fa anywhere. It says Shaolin Kempo Karate.
Click to expand...


----------



## The Kai

Is it the Patch that is Copywrited??

Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> OK. Here's the question that I'm sure some of you must be asking yourselves.... How much money did he pay Sonny Gascon and Lou Angel for his promotions? I don't personally know either one of these well-known martial artists, but if the guy came up with some serious cash I wouldn't blame them for giving him a cert.
> 
> Does anyone here know Chris Geary?



  John, you know you are my friend and I respect you. I can express myself to you as you can to me with no hard feelings. I scrolled down from your original post to read the one that stated the 'paying' thing was a joke and you were poking fun at Shihan Geary. When I was told about your orignal post as I was corresponding on the 'Differences'.........topic. I never would have guessed it was you. I responded about Sijo Gascon's dan ranking fees: $0 over at that topic, perhaps I should have done it here. Your post wasn't poking fun at Shihan Geary as much as it being totally disrespectful to Sijo Gascon and Hanshi Angel, both men who are seniors to your instructor, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik. Should I ask you how much serious cash did you pay Hanshi Juchnik for your promotions? How would that sound? It would not only be an insult to you but also to Hanshi Juchnik. One thing I will bet you on, Hanshi Juchnik is not shy on his dan rank testing fees and I'll just leave it at that. 

 All these questions about Shihan Chris Geary, do what I do when I'm curious about someone. E-mail him, call him or if nearby visit him rather than just lambasting the guy. Everyone has a story to tell, so see what he has to say and you decide. No one says you have to agree with him or like him for that matter. I'm sure he could care less. No big deal. I did and he was very cordial, professional and answered whatever questions I put in front of him. I was impressed by his truthfulness for he never 'b.s.'d me in any way, shape or form since I knew of some of what I was asking prior and he was the same way with Sijo Gascon and Professor Rash. I hate to be b.s.'d! He does seem to have an excellent repoire within his community and with it's leaders. Who cares about his license plate, I've seen guys over the years with all kinds of martial arts plates and even lettering & logoing their vehicles, some very prominent instructors, I'm sure you guys have seen the same. Who really cares? He could do his school in passionate pink if he chooses, like Dave said, it's his school. He also served honorably in defense of our country in the USMC, how many of us can say the same? Dorreen Cogliandro, highest ranking female in Ed Parker's American Kenpo at 8th degree, a hell of a tough tournament competitor and a nice lady (she's from my home state of Massachusetts) gave him a 'thumbs up' on his website, should she be sneered at too? I hope not! Sincerely, Joe


----------



## The Kai

_*absolutely agree with you. The seniors you speak of earned their ranks through decades of hard work and in their day they set the standard. It doesn't get any more legitimate than that. What I'm talking about are the ones with little training and little skill that go on award themselves high ranks or those that hand out rank like it's nothing. To me, that is disrespectful to those that trained hard with years of blood and sweat to get where they are. And that's why I believe it's better to be judged by what you can do or what you have done, not what belt happens to be sitting around your waist.

I probably got a little off the subject on my last post but this is a subject that always hits a nerve for me*_

I Guess i don't understand that you agree with this post yet back up this guy?  10 years to do what takes a normal man 30 years.  Hanshi Juchnik has his faults, yet I have yet to hear of him meeting someone one time and raising them to 5th degree!  (BTW he naever charged me for my tests).
Joe, I know you are ritfull proud and protective of your lineage, but by protecting yourself you also want use to believe this guy?

A lot has to do with the hot bed of martial arts that is Omaha Nebraska,  Just think where will this guy be in 2 years, in 5 years?
 You, Joe have done more to educate and promote Karazempo then to promote yourself, I respect you and look forward to reading your posts.  I hope I have'nt hurt your feelings
BTW - It is a goog looking website
todd


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> _*absolutely agree with you. The seniors you speak of earned their ranks through decades of hard work and in their day they set the standard. It doesn't get any more legitimate than that. What I'm talking about are the ones with little training and little skill that go on award themselves high ranks or those that hand out rank like it's nothing. To me, that is disrespectful to those that trained hard with years of blood and sweat to get where they are. And that's why I believe it's better to be judged by what you can do or what you have done, not what belt happens to be sitting around your waist.
> 
> I probably got a little off the subject on my last post but this is a subject that always hits a nerve for me*_
> 
> I Guess i don't understand that you agree with this post yet back up this guy?  10 years to do what takes a normal man 30 years.  Hanshi Juchnik has his faults, yet I have yet to hear of him meeting someone one time and raising them to 5th degree!  (BTW he naever charged me for my tests).
> Joe, I know you are ritfull proud and protective of your lineage, but by protecting yourself you also want use to believe this guy?
> 
> A lot has to do with the hot bed of martial arts that is Omaha Nebraska,  Just think where will this guy be in 2 years, in 5 years?
> You, Joe have done more to educate and promote Karazempo then to promote yourself, I respect you and look forward to reading your posts.  I hope I have'nt hurt your feelings
> BTW - It is a goog looking website
> todd



No Todd, not at all (hurt feelings), I respect you and I definitely see where you're coming from. Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate that. I can agree with you but here's how I view it. Early on, very early on, I was pretty naive about things. I would hear things about a certain master (I'm saying this as a generic example which can apply to many in the arts) that he did this or that, self promoted himself and/or bought rank, gave rank, sold rank, lied, you know what I mean. So, I kind of get down on the guy in my own head and thought to hell with him and then hear of someone else who is unlike him, I'm told totally legit, he 'da man! As a little time goes by, sure enough, the stories fly about him: self promoted and/or bought rank, gave rank, sold rank, lied, blah, blah, blah. Down the line comes another, now this guy is the tops, no way can anyone cast doubt on any of his credentials and background! Time goes by and again............self promoted and/or bought rank, gave rank, sold rank, lied, etc. As the years went by, next came the videos for black belt, send your money in for your promotion and you get a certificate signed by the master suitable for framing. I open my big mouth and said well so & so would never do that and what happens? I pick up a mag or log on the net and master so & so has a video black belt program out! Go figure! 

 My point being Todd, if I fight and argue with everyone in the martial arts world who listens to the beat of a different drummer than I do, or we do then I will end up becoming overwelmed, burnt out and making a lot of unneccessary enemies and over what? The commercialism of the martial arts? It's not worth it. Everything today is based on the all mighty dollar whether guys like us agree with it or not, we are certainly not going to change it. Are their big egos in our business? Absolutely! Is there arrogance in our business? Absolutely! Criminal behavior? Yes, that goes without saying. There are members in the few organizations I belong to that are recognized by the leaders or founders of such organizations, I have respect for these people, they are my seniors and they treat me with respect in turn. Since they are my seniors, my position is to not second guess their decisions. As a police officer we don't take kindly to a rookie second guessing a veteran either, it's not proper protocol. If Sijo Gascon wishes to have my opinion on something, fine. I will be honest and up front with him. If not, I simply mind my own business and instead of letting negative energy eat away at me, I use positive energy to assist in making the organization move in a positive direction in an effort to bring its members closer together. I look at people and try to see their good points rather than any negativism, of course that only goes so far, there is a line I don't cross and when or if it happens I cut them off entirely. Now, that is a goal that is achievable, trying to change the politics and commercialism of the martial arts world is not achievable and is comparable to banging your head against a brick wall where only two things will happen, you'll either get a concussion or the wall will fall on you, lol. In reference to Hanshi Lou Angel, I have direct knowledge that he was questioned on Shihan Geary's promotion and his response was something to the affect of "you watch your store and I'll watch mine", he had a nice way of saying he has his reasons for doing what he does and everyone else should mind their own business. Yes, that is what he said, pretty much verbatim. Hanshi Lou Angel has been around a hell of a lot longer than I and his accomplishments have made him a legend in the martial arts world. I think that fact stands undisputed. Jeff Speakman performed some Goju he learned from Hanshi to honor him in 'The Perfect Weapon". I'm sure you'll agree he is very highly respected, an honorable man, a man of character and morals.........I decided to listen to this wise man and take him up on his advice. Sijo Sonny Gascon told me personally his only goal in promoting his organization is to bring all Karazenpo and extended family members together in a feeling of 'Ohana' (family) and that's it! Not to make money and get rich, not for ego and publicity but just to bring us all together into one big happy family where we can make friends, train, exchange ideas and simply socialize, a true brotherhood. If Sijo Gascon found it appropiate to promote Shihan Geary to 6th dan then as Hanshi Angel stated, that is his perrogative and proper protocol should be respected by Sijo's students as far as questioning his motives. Remember, the controversy of the promotions of Elvis Presley from Ed Parker and Kang Rhee? When Mr. Parker was asked about Elvis' ability in reference to his high degree rankings he simply stated something very close to this: Elvis was a good black belt and that's all that should matter and be said, for what degree of death are you after your dead? (I could find the direct quote but that's pretty close). That was Mr. Parker's way of handling it and I can respect that also. Take care my friend, with respect, "Joe"


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> John, you know you are my friend and I respect you. I can express myself to you as you can to me with no hard feelings. I scrolled down from your original post to read the one that stated the 'paying' thing was a joke and you were poking fun at Shihan Geary. When I was told about your orignal post as I was corresponding on the 'Differences'.........topic. I never would have guessed it was you. I responded about Sijo Gascon's dan ranking fees: $0 over at that topic, perhaps I should have done it here. Your post wasn't poking fun at Shihan Geary as much as it being totally disrespectful to Sijo Gascon and Hanshi Angel, both men who are seniors to your instructor, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik. Should I ask you how much serious cash did you pay Hanshi Juchnik for your promotions? How would that sound? It would not only be an insult to you but also to Hanshi Juchnik. One thing I will bet you on, Hanshi Juchnik is not shy on his dan rank testing fees and I'll just leave it at that.
> 
> All these questions about Shihan Chris Geary, do what I do when I'm curious about someone. E-mail him, call him or if nearby visit him rather than just lambasting the guy. Everyone has a story to tell, so see what he has to say and you decide. No one says you have to agree with him or like him for that matter. I'm sure he could care less. No big deal. I did and he was very cordial, professional and answered whatever questions I put in front of him. I was impressed by his truthfulness for he never 'b.s.'d me in any way, shape or form since I knew of some of what I was asking prior and he was the same way with Sijo Gascon and Professor Rash. I hate to be b.s.'d! He does seem to have an excellent repoire within his community and with it's leaders. Who cares about his license plate, I've seen guys over the years with all kinds of martial arts plates and even lettering & logoing their vehicles, some very prominent instructors, I'm sure you guys have seen the same. Who really cares? He could do his school in passionate pink if he chooses, like Dave said, it's his school. He also served honorably in defense of our country in the USMC, how many of us can say the same? Dorreen Cogliandro, highest ranking female in Ed Parker's American Kenpo at 8th degree, a hell of a tough tournament competitor and a nice lady (she's from my home state of Massachusetts) gave him a 'thumbs up' on his website, should she be sneered at too? I hope not! Sincerely, Joe


Hi Joe,

Not sure if this whole post was directed totally at me or just the first section. I'll answer what I feel applies to me.

Yes, I questioned whether or not Lou Angel and Sonny Gascon promoted Chris Geary based on abilities or not. It seems odd to me that one would get such rank with only 10 years under his belt. I agree with Mr. Angel when he says, "you watch your store and I'll watch mine". If he wishes to recognize someone as a high-ranking master with only 10 years experience, that's his business. Personally it doesn't affect me at all.

I believe you when you say that Chris Geary didn't pay these men to recognize him as a 6th dan in three styles. I am moving on now. 

I have never paid Hanshi Juchnik for rank. (and all the guys I know who have received rank from him have never paid for it either) I've paid him for lessons, books, training videos, etc. But never for rank. I wouldn't mind if anyone asked me that or made comment that Hanshi sold me rank. I would simply correct them and move on. If they didn't believe me after that, then that's their problem.

I can say that I served honorable in the United States Marine Corps. I was discharged as a SGT. in the fall of 1995.

Again, we all have different tastes. I don't care for his website and think it makes him look like an idiot. Free country, my opinion. I'm sure many think I'm an idiot too. I'm ok with that. I'm more concerned with how I feel about myself and not so concerned with how others feel about me.

So I will say that I apologize to all who have been made to feel badly by my statements. 

Joe, one of the things I like best about you is that you don't mind telling it the way you see it. No hard feelings here! 


-John


PS. Did I ever tell you that Hanshi Juchnik calls me his "trouble-maker"? I don't understand why? :idunno:  :ultracool


----------



## The Kai

Okay here's the deal when do we start self regulating the style??  We always talk about the old days this and that.  Well it's goning to be pretty hard when we tippy tap around these subjects.  That's my 2 cents.  I'm not saying that Sijo did anything wrong.  Hell, with the best of intentions to unify and strenghten his style maybe he did gift this guy a certificate - with the hopes his future effort would be sincere.  See now why Nick cerio gave up the NCMMA??

Allright next windmill to set my lance at!!
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Hi Joe,
> 
> Not sure if this whole post was directed totally at me or just the first section. I'll answer what I feel applies to me.
> 
> Yes, I questioned whether or not Lou Angel and Sonny Gascon promoted Chris Geary based on abilities or not. It seems odd to me that one would get such rank with only 10 years under his belt. I agree with Mr. Angel when he says, "you watch your store and I'll watch mine". If he wishes to recognize someone as a high-ranking master with only 10 years experience, that's his business. Personally it doesn't affect me at all.
> 
> I believe you when you say that Chris Geary didn't pay these men to recognize him as a 6th dan in three styles. I am moving on now.
> 
> I have never paid Hanshi Juchnik for rank. (and all the guys I know who have received rank from him have never paid for it either) I've paid him for lessons, books, training videos, etc. But never for rank. I wouldn't mind if anyone asked me that or made comment that Hanshi sold me rank. I would simply correct them and move on. If they didn't believe me after that, then that's their problem.
> 
> I can say that I served honorable in the United States Marine Corps. I was discharged as a SGT. in the fall of 1995.
> 
> Again, we all have different tastes. I don't care for his website and think it makes him look like an idiot. Free country, my opinion. I'm sure many think I'm an idiot too. I'm ok with that. I'm more concerned with how I feel about myself and not so concerned with how others feel about me.
> 
> So I will say that I apologize to all who have been made to feel badly by my statements.
> 
> Joe, one of the things I like best about you is that you don't mind telling it the way you see it. No hard feelings here!
> 
> 
> -John
> 
> 
> PS. Did I ever tell you that Hanshi Juchnik calls me his "trouble-maker"? I don't understand why? :idunno:  :ultracool



Hi John, glad you responded. No, I made some generalized statements also that did not pertain to you at all. Again, John, if myself and many others, ever opened up, it would start a war with a lot of people. It would give all new meaning to the phrase: "to open up a can of worms". When I started delving into the history I found a lot of things that reflect from the past into the present. I was warned by a friend who did the same thing. He told me to be careful when you start digging into this legitimate rank thing, that I might be disappointed. I kind of scoffed at that. Mistake. This was after we had a discussion (it was on a forum at the time, but I knew him personally) on legit rank and I said something about Mitose. It went like this: 'Well, you can't say he's not legitimate because his ranking was passed down through his bloodline as 21st decendant of his family art'. Needless to say I have since then lost my virginity, lol, and told him some time later that he was right about some of the surprises I would find. I know of a very, very highly respected kenpo senior, respected not only by his students but his peers and seniors who in 11 years in kenpo made it to the rank of 8th degree and a year later at that rank founded his own system that has world wide recognition and accreditation to this day. Everyone knows it, he never hided it and his 8th was from a 'legtimate' master. His system today has numerous subsystems of his original style. This example is just one of many. There's another I know who criticized others excessively and a bit of his 'history' was released and came back to bite him in the butt (not that he wasn't a tough fighter, excellent black belt and teacher). One has to be careful when they point out these things in other people's systems because, trust me, you can easily start digging into their systems and find the same thing. "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.' No matter how far I went back I found controversy. How about Funakoshi receiving his renshi 5th dan from a Budo Kai in Japan that was essentially a haven for practitioners of kenjutsu (the sword arts) along with jiu jitsu and akijitsu. Cross ranking, ya think? What's even better his student was on the board who gave him the rank! He was Japanese and was the alledged 'pull' Funakoshi needed at the time for an Okinawan to be accepted into a Japanese Kai. The Kai has since expanded to take in other arts but is essentially known in Japan as a 'paper mill'. Don't believe me? Talk to Robert Rouuselot of Japan of this forum. So, again, to paraphrase Hanshi Lou Angel -You mind your store and I'll mind mine. I have a different way of putting it. Be careful about criticizing others when you may not know what's going on on in your own back yard because one could end up with 'egg on one's face'.
John, yes, thank you for serving our country in the USMC, I totally respect that. Take care my friend, Sincerely, Joe


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> Okay here's the deal when do we start self regulating the style??  We always talk about the old days this and that.  Well it's goning to be pretty hard when we tippy tap around these subjects.  That's my 2 cents.  I'm not saying that Sijo did anything wrong.  Hell, with the best of intentions to unify and strenghten his style maybe he did gift this guy a certificate - with the hopes his future effort would be sincere.  See now why Nick cerio gave up the NCMMA??
> 
> Allright next windmill to set my lance at!!
> Todd



Todd, the old days were just as bad. We just simply were not around then, weren't in the arts then or if so, may have been too naive or not privy to what was happening then. Nothing has really changed except the numbers and communication. More numbers, more controversy and with the advent of the internet and investigative reporters-no one can hide it anymore. Way back then you trained in Okinawa, Hawaii or Japan or maybe in the U.S. with some people three thousand miles away from home. Not easily traceable. No internet. No real reason to doubt anyone's claims with a little knowledge...you know, "The one eyed man is King in the land of the blind"-thank you KenpoJoe,lol. Ya, Prof. Cerio had the NCIMAA and was nice enough to recognize rank from instructors and systems he recognized only to find some of these people claiming being a private student of his and being tested and promoted by him. Hense, the abolition of his association. Look at the controversy of Hanshi Juchnik and the Mitose prison visits and what some out on the west coast call 'Jail House Karate'. John (Evans), what is more controversial and impacted more martial artists worldwide-  Sijo Gascon & Hanshi Angel's promotion of a guy in Nebraska to 6th dan or getting handed over a legendary martial arts system with no experience in it from several visits to Folsom Prison? Oh, it's okay because Mitose said it was, right? Then I guess it's also okay because Gascon and Angel said it was too. Right? See what I mean about 'throwing stones' but not checking what's going on in your own back yard? Glass houses? I don't mean to sound harsh and this has nothing to do with the man's abilty but come on, what if this was Sijo Gascon or Hanshi Angel's claim to fame? You would be all over them for it and I couldn't blame you! That's the martial arts in general and I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it anymore. Respectfully, Prof. Joe


----------



## The Kai

Prof Joe

It's cool but lets call a horse a horse.  Did Hanshi Juchnik learn the system from the jailhouse, probably not-but man can he hit!  Also has some neat stuff to teach (weather you agree with him or not).  The proof is always in the pudding(what a odd expression).  Maybe the guy is that good, there are stranger things. 
Todd


----------



## bayonet

I have been studying AK for 5 years now. I have been tested and promoted from orange to 3rd brown by Mr. Planas. I have been to Mr. Tatum's school and had the snot knocked outta me by Juan who is a 5th dan:asian:. This so called "Shihan" Geary is just a businessman. Come on, 6th dan in ten years in three styles? Are people in the mid west that dumb? Does he move like a 6th dan? NO Way. Not the 6th dans I have witnessed. This guy is a bunghole. Chris's web site has an article with a BB in taekwondo stating that all the years of kicking gave him arthritis!!LOL Hey,tell that to 64 y.o. Hee Il Cho. WOW just think in 5 more years I can get my 6th dan! Maybe Mr. Planas and Mr. Tatum will bestow and honorary GM title and send me on my merry way! Yeah right, I'd rather wear my tattered brown belt that I have spilled blood for than be "given" rank. Hope nobody is offended. If you are go tell Shihan:rofl:


----------



## bayonet

I also served my country honorably from 91-94 as an infantryman in the 7th Infantry Division(L), C 2/9 INF. Ft Ord/Ft Lewis, U.S. Army. My DD 214 reads honorable discharge. Is there honor in wearing a rank you did not earn? I don't care if all the AK Senoirs got together and bestowed rank upon me, I still would not wear it. The point is, can you defend yourself as a legitmate 5th or 6th? So don't give this dude Geary a pat on the back because he served in the USMC. Many have served in the armed forces. Chuck Sullivan, Larry Tatum, Steve Sanders, Mick Pick, just to name a few. There is one difference though, these Seniors earned their rank and can back it up.


----------



## Danjo

bayonet said:
			
		

> I also served my country honorably from 91-94 as an infantryman in the 7th Infantry Division(L), C 2/9 INF. Ft Ord/Ft Lewis, U.S. Army. My DD 214 reads honorable discharge. Is there honor in wearing a rank you did not earn? I don't care if all the AK Senoirs got together and bestowed rank upon me, I still would not wear it. The point is, can you defend yourself as a legitmate 5th or 6th? So don't give this dude Geary a pat on the back because he served in the USMC. Many have served in the armed forces. Chuck Sullivan, Larry Tatum, Steve Sanders, Mick Pick, just to name a few. There is one difference though, these Seniors earned their rank and can back it up.


Like Prof. Joe said above, it gets really sticky when you get into this whole legitimacy issue. THERE ARE NO STANDARDIZED RANKING SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD. Every organization, and often, dojo etc., ranks differently. Joe Lewis, in his day, could beat the snot out of everyone that got into the ring with him. What rank was he? Did someone have to be able to beat him in order to hold the same or greater rank? What about Bill Wallace? Etc. Etc. What standard wold you use to determine rank? 

It's almost like talking about college degrees. We all know that different colleges and universities have different rankings in terms of quality. We all know that different majors have different requirements. But few would say that my degree from Cal State Fullerton is not legitimate simply because it didn't come from Stanford or Harvard. Did I have to work as hard to get mine as someone did from Harvard? No. Would I , with a BA in History be expected to be as good in math as someone who majored in Engineering? No. Yet, it is a legitimate degree. My wife has a Masters from the same school. Is she not a legit "Master" because she didn't get it from Yale?  "Well, you might say, "she doesn't reason like the masters that I have seen from Oxford! Therefore she must be illegitimate!"

It can get pretty tedious and pointless after a while.


----------



## bayonet

This really has nothing to do with what your major is in college. President Bush went to Yale. Go figure. Don't go to an accountant if you want an in depth analysis of the Civil War. You never know the accountant may be a history buff. I get your point. If you met a man who said "I got a 4 year degree from CSUN in 6 months" wouldn't you be suspect.  As far as standardizing rank, I fully agree as well. BUT no matter what art any of us study, explain how you EARN 6th dan in ten years? Please enlighten me. I don't equate self preservation with what you have around your waist. But having students label you as "The most dangerous man in Nebraska" you better be able to move like a 6th. Mr. Parker wrote "ego is the anesthesia that kills the pain of stupidity". As far as Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace, greats, pioneers, nothing but respect.


----------



## Danjo

bayonet said:
			
		

> This really has nothing to do with what your major is in college. President Bush went to Yale. Go figure. Don't go to an accountant if you want an in depth analysis of the Civil War. You never know the accountant may be a history buff. I get your point. If you met a man who said "I got a 4 year degree from CSUN in 6 months" wouldn't you be suspect. As far as standardizing rank, I fully agree as well. BUT no matter what art any of us study, explain how you EARN 6th dan in ten years? Please enlighten me. I don't equate self preservation with what you have around your waist. But having students label you as "The most dangerous man in Nebraska" you better be able to move like a 6th. Mr. Parker wrote "ego is the anesthesia that kills the pain of stupidity". As far as Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace, greats, pioneers, nothing but respect.


Perhaps I didn't adequately make my point. The comparison between college degrees is just that there are vastly different standards throughout the country, state, and world for what it takes to achieve a "legitimate" degree. even in the same university, you can have the same class taught by different professors that have substantially different standards for what is required to pass their class. However, when one gets the diploma, it's legit. Period. Now, an employer may look at one's transcript and where one got said diploma and compareit unfavorably to another person's, but that does not invalidate the first person's diploma. Why? Because a diploma says that the person bearing it has successfully met the requirements of that institution in order to attain one. There will be people willing to hire a Yale grad, that will not hire one from CSUF, but that doesn't make the CSUF degree invalid. In fact, if the job only requires that one has a BA degree, then it is irelevant where this degree was obtained. Black Belts are the same thing. To get one means that you have met that dojo's (Kwoon, dojang etc.) or organization's requirements to attain one. Does it mean that one from McDojo A, was as hard to obtain as another one? No. But so what? We knew in college that there were easy majors and easy teachers. We knew that they were always brimming with Jocks and that the coaches would hog the spots for their athletes. But those jocks that took the easy classes and easy majors walked in the same procession to get their diploma as the rest of us. Did it make me look with disgust at my diploma and curse the institution that I had earned it from? No. Did it make me feel like a sucker to have taken harder classes and better teachers? No. Hell, I didn't even resent the jocks that got their diploma the easy way. They had their life and I had mine. I valued what I'd learned and that was what my diploma represented to me. Whatever their's meant to them was their own business. Same with belts and degrees/titles. I have tested with people that had a fraction of the skill that I had, and had clearly put in far less work for the same belt rank. Hey, we both came out with the same belt at the end of the day. Did it make it clear to me that I was doing far more than I needed to to earn that belt? Yes. But that was not why I was doing it. I wasn't looking for the minimum needed skill etc. I was looking to be the best I could. You can go crazy if you let this stuff get to you. You will find it in many places in life, not just the martial arts or college. I have a cousin who became a pastor of a church who never finished high school. But, I know a priest that had to go to 8 years of seminary to do the same thing. Both are legit pastors in their respective religions etc. What do you do?


----------



## bayonet

Good points. That's life. As far as your cousin, he obviously found the Lord and in the end that's all that matters as far as I'm concerned but I'm sure people will disagree. Such is life.


----------



## The Kai

The general rule of thumb is for ranks after black belt

1st to 2nd = 2 + years 
2nd to 3rd = 3 + years
3rd to 4th =4 + years
4th to 5th = 5 + years

that's 14 years, and it is pretty widely used.  Especially since the webite alludes the time it would have taken a normal man
Todd


----------



## Danjo

The Kai said:
			
		

> The general rule of thumb is for ranks after black belt
> 
> 1st to 2nd = 2 + years
> 2nd to 3rd = 3 + years
> 3rd to 4th =4 + years
> 4th to 5th = 5 + years
> 
> that's 14 years, and it is pretty widely used. Especially since the webite alludes the time it would have taken a normal man
> Todd


I used to hear that guideline also. It was from the same instructor that said he wouldn't teach anyone under the age of seven and would not test anyone for shodan under the age of sixteen because he didn't want to babysit and he didn't want to look ridiculous. He also said that anything above fifth degree was essentially honorary and was usually tied to how many years one spent teaching the art. It would be cool if people stuck to this, but alas many do not. It would be much easier to call someone on their bs if it were so. Much like the afore mentioned 1.5 year bachelor's degree.


----------



## The Kai

If someone talks about getting a bachelor's degree in 1 1/2 you know he is full of it, so why is this any different.  I have magazine articles from the 70's stating that under 16 no get black belt-In fact Benny Uriqudez made a stir when they(Bill Ryusksa)  awarded him a shodan at 14 years old (but he was also benny uriquedez)

In somw systems any thing over 5th is honorary, in some there are rquirements


In all fairness, mr most feared man in nebraska seems to award his ranks as quick as he got them!  From white to 4th degree black in 12 years!


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Look at the controversy of Hanshi Juchnik and the Mitose prison visits and what some out on the west coast call 'Jail House Karate'. John (Evans), what is more controversial and impacted more martial artists worldwide- Sijo Gascon & Hanshi Angel's promotion of a guy in Nebraska to 6th dan or getting handed over a legendary martial arts system with no experience in it from several visits to Folsom Prison? Oh, it's okay because Mitose said it was, right?


Hi Joe,

I've also heard it called "Convict Kempo"  but that doesn't stop me from studying with Hanshi Juchnik. I think we've been over this many times so I won't go into too much again. Hanshi Juchnik is a fantastic martial artist and can teach at the master level on many topics. What he teaches is extremely different than anything I've seen any other instructor teaching out there. If he's the 1st, 2nd or 22nd grandmaster of Kosho that doesn't matter to me. He considers Mitose to be the true teacher to show him the way. I believe him. His martial skills far surpass any martial artists I've trained with.

I understand that with many people comes many standards. Rank really has very little meaning outside of the school it was granted in. It's like the saying I heard before, "Not all black belts are created equally".

Oh, I should also state this too. It took me going to quite a few seminars and private lessons with Hanshi before I really started to believe what he taught. I'm very skeptical by nature and he made it look way to easy. The moment I let go of trying to figure out whether or not he was skilled or simply a con was the day I tried to truly hit him during a seminar. I had him in my sights and blasted him with a pretty forceful punch. I never saw him move but I missed and he positioned his mouth right next to my ear and whispered, "easy sensei". At that moment I knew he had total control over my body and I had better relax and listen.

On the same day after that moment Hanshi came up to me and asked me to put him in any kind of lock. Well I tried and tried and tried without success. But that's because I was sticking to the wrist lock. (I thought) I shifted and went for a finger lock and when I did Hanshi did something (I'm really not exactly sure to this day) and I fell to the ground with extreme pain to my right thumb. I jumped back up fairly quickly (feeling a bit embarrassed) to find that Hanhsi was no where in sight. When I looked around he was quietly walking away from me - he was already a good fifteen to twenty feet away.

That was truly masterful, to me.


Take care my friend.


-John


----------



## kenmpoka

The Kai said:
			
		

> Hell, with the best of intentions to unify and strenghten his style maybe he did gift this guy a certificate - with the hopes his future effort would be sincere.  See now why Nick cerio gave up the NCMMA??
> 
> Allright next windmill to set my lance at!!
> Todd


In my humble opinion, the only way to strengthen a style is to set proper standards and produce knowledgeable instructors. Giving out high ranks does neither.As far as the NCMMA is/was concerned, why would Mr. Cerio create an assocation to legitimize other instructors' students? I just don't see the point of such an association! 

Salute


----------



## kenmpoka

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi John, glad you responded. No, I made some generalized statements also that did not pertain to you at all. Again, John, if myself and many others, ever opened up, it would start a war with a lot of people. It would give all new meaning to the phrase: "to open up a can of worms". When I started delving into the history I found a lot of things that reflect from the past into the present. I was warned by a friend who did the same thing. He told me to be careful when you start digging into this legitimate rank thing, that I might be disappointed. I kind of scoffed at that. Mistake. This was after we had a discussion (it was on a forum at the time, but I knew him personally) on legit rank and I said something about Mitose. It went like this: 'Well, you can't say he's not legitimate because his ranking was passed down through his bloodline as 21st decendant of his family art'. Needless to say I have since then lost my virginity, lol, and told him some time later that he was right about some of the surprises I would find. I know of a very, very highly respected kenpo senior, respected not only by his students but his peers and seniors who in 11 years in kenpo made it to the rank of 8th degree and a year later at that rank founded his own system that has world wide recognition and accreditation to this day. Everyone knows it, he never hided it and his 8th was from a 'legtimate' master. His system today has numerous subsystems of his original style. This example is just one of many. There's another I know who criticized others excessively and a bit of his 'history' was released and came back to bite him in the butt (not that he wasn't a tough fighter, excellent black belt and teacher). One has to be careful when they point out these things in other people's systems because, trust me, you can easily start digging into their systems and find the same thing. "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.' No matter how far I went back I found controversy. How about Funakoshi receiving his renshi 5th dan from a Budo Kai in Japan that was essentially a haven for practitioners of kenjutsu (the sword arts) along with jiu jitsu and akijitsu. Cross ranking, ya think? What's even better his student was on the board who gave him the rank! He was Japanese and was the alledged 'pull' Funakoshi needed at the time for an Okinawan to be accepted into a Japanese Kai. The Kai has since expanded to take in other arts but is essentially known in Japan as a 'paper mill'. Don't believe me? Talk to Robert Rouuselot of Japan of this forum. So, again, to paraphrase Hanshi Lou Angel -You mind your store and I'll mind mine. I have a different way of putting it. Be careful about criticizing others when you may not know what's going on on in your own back yard because one could end up with 'egg on one's face'.
> John, yes, thank you for serving our country in the USMC, I totally respect that. Take care my friend, Sincerely, Joe


Hey Brother Joe,

Funakoshi's rank can not be compared to any of these non-sense situations.....At the time he recieved that rank, he had 30 years of teaching and training under is belt. His rank was sanctioned by Nihon butokukai, yes originally an exclusive organization for the promotion of Japanese MA, but accepting and adopting Karate-Do systems as well. Yasuhiro konishi (later founded the system of Shindo Jinen Ryu-A Shotokan off shoot) a student of Funakoshi was on the board of promotions.He was a well known Jujutsu and Kenjutsu teacher and practitioner. All Karate systems were organizing their curriculum and ranking systems, so Funakoshi needed a rank as well. Both his instructors were dead by that time and most other Instructors were his junior. He received a modest rank for his experience, contributions and of course, political reasons. If the "Kai" became a "paper mill" 50 years later, it had nothing to do with Funakoshi's  promotion.  

Now to the Kenpo senior that you're talking about, we both know his history. The so called Chinese teacher as we talked about the other day, could have been a chinese restaurant waiter for all we know. Have you heard of any of his other students? What happened to this infamous teacher? The Kempo/ Kenpo ranking system has always been and still is in trouble.......

Sooooo, how was that glass of red wine anyhow? Nice talking to you. I'll call you very soon again.

Salute,


----------



## Karazenpo

I agree with all you guys. You all make sense. I also believe that Hanshi Juchnik is a tough guy & a skilled martial artist. I think part of the controversy, besides the prison visits, was of his low ranking of 3rd dan in Tracy Kenpo when he took over the Mitose system but again, I'll mind my store and he can mind his. God bless him. I also believe he has a well organized legitimate system which has much to offer the martial arts world. Do I believe it was that heavily influenced by James Mitose's Kosho ryu and should be the the only valid extension or continuation of Kosho? I'm sorry, in all do respect I have to go with Professor Thomas Young and his decendants as far as being the closest thing and continuation of the Mitose kenpo system. Imho, this seems the logical choice to continue the Kosho lineage. Just my opinion.

 These are not questions anyone asked but they are questions I'll put forward and about myself and answer honestly. Would I personally promote someone to 6th dan with ten years experience? Let's see, I made my 6th dan with 19 years experience and it wasn't because I'm a slow learner, lol. Have I ever promoted anyone to 6th dan and if so, what was their time in grade? Yes, only two, one with 26 years time in grade and the other was already an 8th in Kajukenbo with over 30 years experience. This is me, personally, who only has to answer to me personally, what others do is none of my business for I'm sure they have their reasons whether we agree with them or not. One should not make a shodan in 6 months? Right? Well, I met a guy who made shodan in 7 months and another guy who made it in 6 months. My wife and I became personal friends with him and his wife for for over ten years now. I'll stand by these two men and put them up against anyone on this forum or any other, as a man, teacher and fighter. The first is Joe Lewis and second is Mike Stone. I can imagine the controversy these guys stirred up amongst the traditonalists when they came back from their tour of duty with a first degree black belt. I wonder how much butt they kicked before everyone shut up? What is the standard? Everyone's standard seems to be different so I guess there is no standard, lol.

As far as those who serve our country, I have a bit of a weak spot in my heart for that one. My Dad is a veteran. He was also an ex-pow held in Nazi Germany for 11 months, bronze star, purple heart and a bunch of ohthers I can't even remember. Yeah, I will always cut those who serve honorably a little slack. Hey, just being straight with you guys. Now, a businessman (Shihan Geary)? Yes, without a doubt, a businessman. I've seen many go that route in the martial arts. Do I? would I? No, that's not me which is why I'm still a full time police officer at 53 years old and have been serving since 1977, the year I made my shodan but again, that's me. One of my senior black belts wants to help put up a website for me (for I am computer illiterate,lol), I said okay and this was over a year ago, I should get going, lol. How is it going to look? Informative, conservative, straight forward and above all, humble. 

Last but not least remember I stated what the true test of legitmacy is? Two questions and only two. Are you comfortable in wearing your rank around others and are you comfortable in how you achieved your rank. The other thing is I really don't care how someone else got their rank because I'm not the one who will be called on it by someone someday? I'm comfortable on both questions and I mind my own store. With respect to all, "Joe"


----------



## Karazenpo

Hey Brother Peter, I just posted and went back and noticed your posts. You were probably posting when I was, same thing with my friend John Evans, so I didn't get to answer you guys. Here goes. Bro, Peter, as always, it was great talking to you again the other day. Yep, that glass of red wine hit the spot!,lol. Remember? we laughed about that in our conversation that he could have been the waiter? lol, although, Peter, I went on a police call years ago to a Chinese Restuarant when a waiter broke the jaw of this big burly construction worker with one shot! I never knew he was kung fu until that night! lol. 

As I was saying about the NCIMAA recognizing another instructor's rank providing they recognized that instructor. Peter, it was the trend and the way things were done then and probaly still now. Cerio got the idea from Mr. Parker's IKKA, I would have to say it was the norm and not the exception of associations honoring your current rank at the recomendation of your instructor when joining. I really don't think it's such a big thing. It's not a promotion. All it says is I know who your instructor is, he's legit in my eyes and out of respect I will recognize your rank. If Cerio accepted a student from another recognized kenpo school of the same lineage at let's say 5th dan then when he was time to promote him it wouldn't neccessarily be for 6th but for 5th dan. I'm not saying he did this all the time but it was the norm not the exception. 

Peter, as far as Funakoshi and his 5th dan goes, Robert Rouuselot lives in Japan, is a contributor to this forum and is extremely well versed in this. He has posted some very, very, interesting things in regards to Funakoshi, his ranking and his Shotokan. Robert would be the one to debate on this issue more than I. I'm just parrotting what Robert told me. Take care, "Joe"


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> If someone talks about getting a bachelor's degree in 1 1/2 you know he is full of it, so why is this any different.  I have magazine articles from the 70's stating that under 16 no get black belt-In fact Benny Uriqudez made a stir when they(Bill Ryusksa)  awarded him a shodan at 14 years old (but he was also benny uriquedez)
> 
> In somw systems any thing over 5th is honorary, in some there are rquirements
> 
> 
> In all fairness, mr most feared man in nebraska seems to award his ranks as quick as he got them!  From white to 4th degree black in 12 years!



Hi Todd, believe me, I know what you're saying. Remember, I never said I agreed with everything and I also stated it wasn't my position to disrepsect and second guess my seniors therefore, I will concentrate only the postive aspects. I don't like wasting my time with negative energy anymore, especially when it doesn't get you anywhere. Rookie cops come aboard and are idealists thinking there're going to change the world. Several years later, reality sets in, they look back and have a good laugh at themselves. It doesn't mean they give up the fight, I never have, but I just look at things now from a different perspective. My core values stay the same I just don't try to force them on any one else any more, been there, done that, it doesn't work. I guess I've evolved, lol. With respect my friend, Joe


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> The general rule of thumb is for ranks after black belt
> 
> 1st to 2nd = 2 + years
> 2nd to 3rd = 3 + years
> 3rd to 4th =4 + years
> 4th to 5th = 5 + years
> 
> that's 14 years, and it is pretty widely used.  Especially since the webite alludes the time it would have taken a normal man
> Todd



Todd, I like that table too, then I delved into the history years ago after being warned by a friend I was in for a few surprises, well, he really said 'disappointments'. Go back to ALL the masters/founders of all the Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo systems we are all a part of today and as a friend pointed out, do the math and when you do the math, check their ages. I guess you could say the one eyed man is king in the land of the blind but is that a valid reason or justification? Whatever..........that's why I have the attitude I do and would rather stay out of it and I'll be honest, it takes a lot of self control sometimes, lol. Take care, Prof. Joe


----------



## The Kai

And the reason Nick Cerio halted the NCIMMA?  Was because of these abuses!


This rank inflation is a problem throughout the industry.  You mentioned Mike Stone or Joe Lewis - is it your contention that The most dangerous man in Nebraska is on the same page as these two gentlemen??
 hanshi Juchnik can back his crap up>

Other interesting things
1.) His instructor went from White To 4th Degree balck belt in 8 years!!!!   Wow!!!

2.) A dojo shhould be flat, free of clutter area to work out.  How can you train in a museum/monument?   "Alright the sparring ring is the line between the 2 statues and the shrine to myself"
3.) No sparring.  Come on guess why.
 Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

Todd stated:

And the reason Nick Cerio halted the NCIMMA? Was because of these abuses!


This rank inflation is a problem throughout the industry. You mentioned Mike Stone or Joe Lewis - is it your contention that The most dangerous man in Nebraska is on the same page as these two gentlemen??
hanshi Juchnik can back his crap up>

I say: Relax, Todd. Yes, that is why Cerio abolished the association, However, they were plans to bring it back without the 'recognition of rank' thing. As far as you question of Lewis and Stone scenerio (I knew someone was going to say that and I mean't to add it was not meant to be taken that way!) What do you think, Todd? Rhetorical question and I know you know the answer. No, my point was that when you put things into perspective, back in those early years, the die hard traditonalists were kicking up a strom and to them, back then, these were rank abuses! Todd, why let the guy from Nebraska upset you? You would say he's hurting us all in general? Okay, for sake of argument, let's take that as a given and go after him on it. Where do we stop? Who else do you want to go after? I have a list too (although I keep it to myself for the reasons I previously have given), Where does it stop or does it stop? No, it doesn't. We cannot be crusaders on this issue unless you wish to burn out prematurely. Let the natural order of things handle it for time will either promote you or expose you. Some say Mitose was a bum, charleton and a con man with little if ANY ability from a made up system consisting of merely the surface arts. I'm not saying this is all true but there are many who believe this. For sake of argument, let's say it's all true. Look what sprang from this? The Youngs, the Chows, Emperados, Gascons, Godins, Leonings, Parkers, Tracys, etc. and yes, my personal instructors too, along with yours and Hanshi Juchnik. All I concern myself with is who I teach and who I promote, that's why my school, although belonging to associations, remains independant of curriculum amd promotions. We do all our promotions unless I wish to take in a personal guest instructor from another school which I have done on occassion. Regardless, it's my perrogative, my show and that way I only have to answer to the guy I see in the mirror every morning when I shave. Gotta go now, done for the day here. Sincerely, Joe


----------



## DavidCC

The Kai said:
			
		

> Other interesting things
> 1.) His instructor went from White To 4th Degree balck belt in 8 years!!!! Wow!!!
> 
> 2.) A dojo shhould be flat, free of clutter area to work out. How can you train in a museum/monument? "Alright the sparring ring is the line between the 2 statues and the shrine to myself"
> 3.) No sparring. Come on guess why.
> Todd


We do plenty of sparring. Stick to the facts.

Chris Geary has 10 years of running a school, not 10 years of MA experience.  Criticize as much as you like, but try to stick to the facts.

bayonet describes how Geary moves bet I will bet $20 he's never seen it happen.  Maybe on Geary's white belt techniques DVD bayonet might have seen him, is that a good way to judge how Geary looks (or more accurately, looked 6 years ago)? Or is bayonet a former student of Geary's?? he doesn't say, just states his opinion as fact.

My instructor is that 4th dan, I work with him almost every day, and he compares to the others I have met of his rank (which I admit is not many). You have even less basis on which to judge his skills than you do Geary's.  Not that this stops intellectualls of your caliber from passing judgement.  Ask some of the people on this board who have worked out with him if they thought he didn't earn his rank.  

So what's next? I suggest you go ask over at Bullshido, they are very good at this kind of thread maybe they can offer some pointers on how to take it to the next level


----------



## DavidCC

So while I was on my long weekend away from the hindernet i tried to imagine why you 3 or 4 guys are so worked up over Geary's rank.

I came up with a few possibilities

1) Jealousy - You wish you had $20,000 to spend on a piece of paper to hang on the wall or to gold-leaf your dojo decor.  Not to say you would spend it like that, but it'd be nice to have...
2) Bravado - You get your adrenaline fix when you write these posts without risking a punch in the nose
3) Shame - By making somebody else look worse than the guy who heads your organization, you can pretend that the stuff he did/does is not as bad as you know it is.
4) Altruism -  People here are the only ones who really understand what a great judge of character you are; you are only doing it for them lest they get taken in by an instructor in Nebraska!

It's probably a combination...


----------



## bayonet

First of all, I am a student of Richard Planas:asian:. Enough said there. I have witnessed 6th dans such as Chuck Epperson, Scott Halsey, Dian Tanaka, Rick Jeffcoat and Clyde O' Brien ( 7th now) move. I guess we in the American Kenpo world have a different take on what a 6th dan means. If running a beautiful, successful school in Nebraska is what you have do to earn 6th dan then so be it. Step onto the mat with ANY of the aforementioned kenpoist and YOU will be truly humbled.And if I EVER find myself wondering through the state of Nebraska I will be sure to stop in and participate in technique line with all you dangerous folk.  No I have never seen Geary move and I have never watched his DVD's. Why, when I can watch Mr. Tatum's 40 years of experience on DVD. Thats all. Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers. We can go back and forth but your opinion will never change and either will mine.


----------



## James Kovacich

bayonet said:
			
		

> First of all, I am a student of Richard Planas:asian:. Enough said there. I have witnessed 6th dans such as Chuck Epperson, Scott Halsey, Dian Tanaka, Rick Jeffcoat and Clyde O' Brien ( 7th now) move. I guess we in the American Kenpo world have a different take on what a 6th dan means. If running a beautiful, successful school in Nebraska is what you have do to earn 6th dan then so be it. Step onto the mat with ANY of the aforementioned kenpoist and YOU will be truly humbled.And if I EVER find myself wondering through the state of Nebraska I will be sure to stop in and participate in technique line with all you dangerous folk.  No I have never seen Geary move and I have never watched his DVD's. Why, when I can watch Mr. Tatum's 40 years of experience on DVD. Thats all. Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers. We can go back and forth but your opinion will never change and either will mine.


How can someone with 5 years in the arts say how a 6th Dan should perform?   But then again, 5 years is enough time in to *start talking about what they can do * instead what they think others should be doing. :uhyeah:


----------



## bayonet

I NEVER stated how a 6th dan "should" perform. I was stating of how the 6th dans in the AK system *move.* Big difference. And on YOUR same point, how can anybody with 10 years experience claim 6th dan? Do the math. What rank do think this guy was when he had five years in? Definately way above brown. But your the expert here:rofl:


----------



## Karazenpo

bayonet said:
			
		

> First of all, I am a student of Richard Planas:asian:. Enough said there. I have witnessed 6th dans such as Chuck Epperson, Scott Halsey, Dian Tanaka, Rick Jeffcoat and Clyde O' Brien ( 7th now) move. I guess we in the American Kenpo world have a different take on what a 6th dan means. If running a beautiful, successful school in Nebraska is what you have do to earn 6th dan then so be it. Step onto the mat with ANY of the aforementioned kenpoist and YOU will be truly humbled.And if I EVER find myself wondering through the state of Nebraska I will be sure to stop in and participate in technique line with all you dangerous folk.  No I have never seen Geary move and I have never watched his DVD's. Why, when I can watch Mr. Tatum's 40 years of experience on DVD. Thats all. Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers. We can go back and forth but your opinion will never change and either will mine.



Hello bayonet, I know the above post is directed to Dave but I just have to pick up on something that is my pet peeve that I've expressed myself on several times here. Here is an excerpt from your post:  "I guess we in the American Kenpo world have a different take on what a 6th dan means".  You can't go there, sir, remember what I've been saying on  'The glass house syndrome' , throwing stones and checking what's going on in your own back yard before criticizing someone else. "I guess we in American Kenpo", well, American Kenpo people you are familiar with are having a bit of a heated debate on Kenponet right now about other American Kenpo people, to paraphrase, disgracing their art with this inflated rank thing.  I can also tell you that it was brought to my attention by a member of this board in person at my dojo of an American Kenpo master in our area who was just promoted to 8th dan and do you know how? His students told him he should be an 8th dan (I only knew him as a 5th, don't know if he 'legit' made 6th and 7th) so he said more or less, okay, and promoted himself to 8th, yes, EPAK, self promoted 8th degree black belt!  If you need further confirmation contact American Kenpo's Tom Chase of this forum and he will back me up on this.  Tom is one of the legitimate hard workers in his art who recognizes that these questionable situations are in every system and style and no one or no system is immune. The longer you stay in your art the more you will see this and come to understand that disgression is the better part of valor in these situations. I have my own personal opinions but I try to keep them to myself the best I can for these flame wars have no end! You have no personal knowledge of Dave and neither do I and talking down to him like that, telling him he will be truly humbled is kind of disrespectful, there are more respectful ways to get your point across in recognition of  the abilities of your instructor and your seniors than going about it in that way. You used the word 'humbling' so you must realize that is an important attribute in the martial arts and not just a word to be used when it fits your point of view. Just give it some thought, remember, this is supposed to be 'friendly discussion'. Sincerely, Prof. Joe


----------



## James Kovacich

bayonet said:
			
		

> . I have been to Mr. Tatum's school and had the snot knocked outta me by Juan who is a 5th dan
> Does he move like a 6th dan? NO Way. Not the 6th dans I have witnessed. This guy is a bunghole.


Just be cause you got the snot knocked outta ya does not mean that Geary is not as much as a fighter as those kicked your ***. :uhyeah:


----------



## bayonet

akja said:
			
		

> Just be cause you got the snot knocked outta ya does not mean that Geary is not as much as a fighter as those kicked your ***. :uhyeah:


Yeah and if a man who has trained with Mr. Tatum for twenty years knocked the snot outta me in technique line so be it. Hang around the arts long enough and it's bound to happen. As far as fighting ability, why not award Mike Tyson and 6th dan. His fighting ability speaks for itself. So let's award everyone with a natural fighting ability BB's.


----------



## monkey-a-go-go

Is Mr. Geary's website over the top? LoL. I think so. Maybe his wife always wanted to be an interior decorator and he promised when he opened his school she could design it. Maybe he came from meager beginnings and he went to an Anthony Robbins Success seminar and has big dreams LOL. I have no idea. I have also never seen him move, drill, or run forms. And neither have you bayonet. You and I have no idea. Does it seem odd? Well, He was checked out by Gascon and Angel. They have been around a lot longer than you and I right? Has any disgruntled longtime students come to post warnings? No. Has a student satisfied with what he is getting? Yep. So let Gearys organizations handle it.
You stated "We in American Kenpo" and dropped some big names. Are you representing them? Would they be comfortable about that? I can think of three names off the top of my head, AK practioners, whose actions are degrading your fine art. People who are hurting those like yourself who earn their rank the hard way. This could use your scrutiny. And maybe one day you might instruct yourself and turn out some fine students who will uphold the integrity of the arts. Clean up your yard and let Geary's people clean up theirs.  Anyhow, Anyone watching the Ken Burns PBS Documentary "Unforgivable Blackness" about Jack Johnson? Good stuff.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Is Mr. Geary's website over the top? LoL. I think so. Maybe his wife always wanted to be an interior decorator and he promised when he opened his school she could design it. .


We can only hope it was his wife or girlfriend (I didn't see anywhere on his site that he was married, attached, or had children), otherwise, it looks a little lite in the loafers LOL.    

DarK LorD


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hello bayonet, I know the above post is directed to Dave but I just have to pick up on something that is my pet peeve that I've expressed myself on several times here. Here is an excerpt from your post: "I guess we in the American Kenpo world have a different take on what a 6th dan means". You can't go there, sir, remember what I've been saying on 'The glass house syndrome' , throwing stones and checking what's going on in your own back yard before criticizing someone else. "I guess we in American Kenpo", well, American Kenpo people you are familiar with are having a bit of a heated debate on Kenponet right now about other American Kenpo people, to paraphrase, disgracing their art with this inflated rank thing. I can also tell you that it was brought to my attention by a member of this board in person at my dojo of an American Kenpo master in our area who was just promoted to 8th dan and do you know how? His students told him he should be an 8th dan (I only knew him as a 5th, don't know if he 'legit' made 6th and 7th) so he said more or less, okay, and promoted himself to 8th, yes, EPAK, self promoted 8th degree black belt! If you need further confirmation contact American Kenpo's Tom Chase of this forum and he will back me up on this. Tom is one of the legitimate hard workers in his art who recognizes that these questionable situations are in every system and style and no one or no system is immune. The longer you stay in your art the more you will see this and come to understand that disgression is the better part of valor in these situations. I have my own personal opinions but I try to keep them to myself the best I can for these flame wars have no end! You have no personal knowledge of Dave and neither do I and talking down to him like that, telling him he will be truly humbled is kind of disrespectful, there are more respectful ways to get your point across in recognition of the abilities of your instructor and your seniors than going about it in that way. You used the word 'humbling' so you must realize that is an important attribute in the martial arts and not just a word to be used when it fits your point of view. Just give it some thought, remember, this is supposed to be 'friendly discussion'. Sincerely, Prof. Joe


George Elmer promoted himself to 10th for the same reason.    Ludicrous and shame I'm not there.

DarK LorD


----------



## monkey-a-go-go

> We can only hope it was his wife or girlfriend (I didn't see anywhere on his site that he was married, attached, or had children), otherwise, it looks a little lite in the loafers LOL.


Not that there's anything wrong with that. LOL.


----------



## monkey-a-go-go

Hey who ever promoted the first ten year old black belt- Go get that guy! lol


----------



## Karazenpo

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> George Elmer promoted himself to 10th for the same reason.    Ludicrous and shame I'm not there.
> 
> DarK LorD



Yeah, it's in all styles, all systems and no matter how much we huff and puff, it's not going to go away, so you learn to live with it. In one of Mr. Parker's books, the Infinite Insights into Kenpo series, maybe it's volume 5, I'm not sure, but the poem is called "The Man in the Glass", fitting for this discussion, isn't it? from an unknown author I think but that poem says it all.


----------



## bayonet

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Is Mr. Geary's website over the top? LoL. I think so. Maybe his wife always wanted to be an interior decorator and he promised when he opened his school she could design it. Maybe he came from meager beginnings and he went to an Anthony Robbins Success seminar and has big dreams LOL. I have no idea. I have also never seen him move, drill, or run forms. And neither have you bayonet. You and I have no idea. Does it seem odd? Well, He was checked out by Gascon and Angel. They have been around a lot longer than you and I right? Has any disgruntled longtime students come to post warnings? No. Has a student satisfied with what he is getting? Yep. So let Gearys organizations handle it.
> You stated "We in American Kenpo" and dropped some big names. Are you representing them? Would they be comfortable about that?


Well Monkey -a-go-go,You have a point.I have never seen Geary move so I won't speak on that anymore. I mean as a fellow vet I could sit at the American Legion and talk story with him.
2. I did drop some big names. The reason being is because all the names I have dropped I have personally witnessed these Kenpoist move. How am I representing them? By respecting the way a 6th dan can move and flow. 
3. Would Shihan Geary be comfortable with your interior decor comments? LOL!!! Who knows if he has a wife. In this day and age alot of men are into interior design.
Anywho, did anyone catch the Van Halen tour this past year?


----------



## The Kai

monkey-a-go-go said:
			
		

> Not that there's anything wrong with that. LOL.


Actually, while I'm the first guy to bust any ones chops lets leave this kind of talk in the playground where it belongs.  We are after all making assumptions about his martial arts experience based on what we see on a website.  Please don't start spurious rumors
Todd


----------



## The Kai

Actually Ive seem George Elmer move and he is good
I've also met Mr Angel>>

Believe Me I am Jeosous when I worked hard, sweat and blead to ear my rank and them someone one buys thiers and claims "Ha<Ha look how fast I got here!"

If you want to pop me in the nose look at the website the address is listed



Granted I based alot of stuff of off the website, but nothing struck a chord of a 6th degree
Todd


----------



## Danjo

I've seen demos by 5th 6th and 7th degrees. To be honest, if they were all mixed up and weren't wearing their belts, I would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.


Prof Joe, I thought it took Lewis 9 months to get to Shodan. (Like that makes a lot of difference!)


----------



## James Kovacich

bayonet said:
			
		

> Yeah and if a man who has trained with Mr. Tatum for twenty years knocked the snot outta me in technique line so be it. Hang around the arts long enough and it's bound to happen. As far as fighting ability, why not award Mike Tyson and 6th dan. His fighting ability speaks for itself. So let's award everyone with a natural fighting ability BB's.



I don't doubt your instructors or the knowledge that they are passing on to you BUT you are confusing that little bit of knowledge with being "seasoned attributes" that you "assume" you have. If you did, you'd be moving up faster than you are. 

Don't misunderstand me, a few years of solid training does not equal to being a seasoned martial artist. You're calling out a high ranking blackbelt based TOTALLY on his website. THINK!!

Many people in the JKD world don't like who I associate with. One of them is rich and they don't like his buisness practices and they talk all the talk. But then when I call them on it, they remember he can really fight too! And then they have to check themselves. Many martial artists are like that.

Nearly 30 years ago I was trained by Kajukenbos "renegade instructor" of that time. Many seniors tried to put him down and us along with him. They said we lied and cheated. They said how can they be purple and blue belts. They're liars, they should be banned from competing. All the Kaju fighters claimed same school so we didn't have to fight until the finals but ALL the others schools, including Kenpo had to fight us and lose.

Our instructor was a brown belt and could not promote us. I started training in 1973 and in 1978 (although my 3rd school) I was still a purple belt. We were all under-ranked but we were true! All the way up to the '90's I've always put a white belt on in every school I've been in until my system "started to arrive." 

I've seen to much and I'm way to smart to know that I can't make a true judgement based on viewing a website like you tried and you even said if your in the area you'll "step in and match technique with them." Not good.

You can judge me all you want BUT you better not make it public or it will be coming back on ya and that's how you need to learn to treat others out there.

I'm not trying to ride you here but it wouldn't hurt if you filled out your profile (so you can be judged as well) so we new who we are talking to and maybe give us an idea of who you are.


----------



## Danjo

Flamboyance certainly is not an indicator of fighting ability. According to many in the 60's and 70's John Keehan (the notorious Count Dante) was actually a pretty solid fighter and 5th degree black belt under Robert Trias. Nobody was more flamboyant however. Peter Urban also had a lot of flair, but was considered legit. Who was this Kajukenbo renegade?


----------



## The Kai

Count Dante was'nt really flamboyant, I think he was more likely to be called outrageous.  He advocated training is sweats with tennis shoes on.  street cloths.  He stated in a magazine that a boxer was better trained to win a street fight.  He felt the "ritual of Kata" over took the conditioning aspects of the arts.  For a Non Chinese to make these sytaemets in the early 70's - outrageous.
One of Count dante's "things" was to go into a bar on the south side of chicago and basically pick a fight - Scandeleous.
My teacher's teacher met Count Dante, basically summed it up "A cracked egg, but mastered the physicl art"
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

akja said:
			
		

> I don't doubt your instructors or the knowledge that they are passing on to you BUT you are confusing that little bit of knowledge with being "seasoned attributes" that you "assume" you have. If you did, you'd be moving up faster than you are.
> 
> Don't misunderstand me, a few years of solid training does not equal to being a seasoned martial artist. You're calling out a high ranking blackbelt based TOTALLY on his website. THINK!!
> 
> Many people in the JKD world don't like who I associate with. One of them is rich and they don't like his buisness practices and they talk all the talk. But then when I call them on it, they remember he can really fight too! And then they have to check themselves. Many martial artists are like that.
> 
> Nearly 30 years ago I was trained by Kajukenbos "renegade instructor" of that time. Many seniors tried to put him down and us along with him. They said we lied and cheated. They said how can they be purple and blue belts. They're liars, they should be banned from competing. All the Kaju fighters claimed same school so we didn't have to fight until the finals but ALL the others schools, including Kenpo had to fight us and lose.
> 
> Our instructor was a brown belt and could not promote us. I started training in 1973 and in 1978 (although my 3rd school) I was still a purple belt. We were all under-ranked but we were true! All the way up to the '90's I've always put a white belt on in every school I've been in until my system "started to arrive."
> 
> I've seen to much and I'm way to smart to know that I can't make a true judgement based on viewing a website like you tried and you even said if your in the area you'll "step in and match technique with them." Not good.
> 
> You can judge me all you want BUT you better not make it public or it will be coming back on ya and that's how you need to learn to treat others out there.
> 
> I'm not trying to ride you here but it wouldn't hurt if you filled out your profile (so you can be judged as well) so we new who we are talking to and maybe give us an idea of who you are.



Jim (akja), in my humble opinion, you're a very wise man and a lot can be learned from reading your posts. You are not just a man of words, it's easy to to get the feeling that you have been there and done that and you certainly have my respect. Take care & God bless, my brother, "Joe"


----------



## James Kovacich

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Jim (akja), in my humble opinion, you're a very wise man and a lot can be learned from reading your posts. You are not just a man of words, it's easy to to get the feeling that you have been there and done that and you certainly have my respect. Take care & God bless, my brother, "Joe"


Joe,
I very humbly appreciate your kind words. You almost seem to know me I thats part of the reason why I hold you and your opinions is very high regards. The other reasons you already know. you "live them" everyday.
Respectfully, Your brother Jim :asian:


----------



## Karazenpo

Danjo said:
			
		

> I've seen demos by 5th 6th and 7th degrees. To be honest, if they were all mixed up and weren't wearing their belts, I would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.
> 
> 
> Prof Joe, I thought it took Lewis 9 months to get to Shodan. (Like that makes a lot of difference!)



You're right Danjo, I had heard the 9 month time period for years and then I read it was 7 months and that number just stuck in my mind. So, I'm not sure, so I'll leave myself open to stand corrected. I'll say one thing in his behalf though, way back in 1987 Gm. Ray Szuch, the founder of the U.S. Police Defensive Tactics Association, set up a meeting with Mr. Lewis and myself in Greenfield, Ma., I was the Asst. National Director at the time. Gm. Szuch wanted Mr. Lewis to be a part of our association but Joe Lewis stated something to the affect of he doesn't get involved in anything without having a sit down and looking the person in the eye. Back then, I was excited about the meet but also apprehensive because of the stories about Joe Lewis' 'alledged', let's say 'interaction' with people, lol. Let me say this, Kathy and I doubled that night with Joe and his beautiful wife Kim. We had a great time, they were fun to be with, I heard some history first hand that I couldn't believe I was privy too!

I remember going to the men's room in this club we were at and it just hit me. I'm talking with Joe Lewis (understand, he was one of my idols when I started in kenpo and made my black belt), it was like sureal, lol, hey, yeah, a little star struck but put it in perspective, this guy worked out and trained with Bruce Lee, so cut me some slack,lol. In 1987, I still had the 'little boy' in me, probably still do, I think, I hope! When we were leaving I remember saying to him that to be honest, we were a lttle nervous about meeting him not knowing if he would like us. Joe looked at me and said that he and Kim were nervous about meeting us, hoping we'd like them! Okay, is that humbling or what? So, from my encounter, a great martial artsit and helluva nice guy! Yes, Joe Lewis was an intimidator in the ring and some of it carried over outside the ring according to some but it must have worked for him because he was undisputedly one of the greatest fighters of all time, no matter how long it took him to shodan, agreed?, lol, I'm sure. Great memories...............


----------



## The Kai

Again just to make the issue clear this guy he is no Joe Lewis, Mike Stone.  The only commonality is that they all recieved rank rather quickly, while some were limited to merely getting a shodan in the quick, others got alot higher in rank with a similiar stellar arc.

Todd


----------



## The Kai

shoot last one got away from me - Yes this guy might be all that, there are warning flags (at least to my rather untutored eyes)
todd


----------



## The Kai

Danjo said:
			
		

> I've seen demos by 5th 6th and 7th degrees. To be honest, if they were all mixed up and weren't wearing their belts, I would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.


That's nothing I'd advertise on the radio!


----------



## John Bishop

Danjo said:
			
		

> Who was this Kajukenbo renegade?


Actually he's in your area (Anaheim) teaching now.  Greg Lagera.  He's got a kids program called "Crazy Dragons".  
I don't think AKJA was old enough to really know what was going on with his instructor and some of the seniors at the time.  But those fences were mended a long time ago.  
In fact I was witness to his promotion to 8th degree professor last september, so obviously he's not on the outs in Kajukenbo.


----------



## Karazenpo

I definitely see your point, Todd, and again, so that I'm clear, that was not my comparison. My point being that this argument has been going on for many decades with no end or final conclusion or let's say remedy insight so I've just moved on. I'm sure after all of us on this forum are dead and buried, they'll be new names but same debate will continue.......................Amen.


----------



## Danjo

It may be that the upper level Black Belts I saw weren't that good (though they seemed pretty good to me at the time), or maybe I am too unspophisticated to discerne the difference between a 5th, 6th and 7th degree in performance. Several people tell me that they weren't very impressed with Nick Cerio, though he seemed pretty good to me. Maybe I need greater exposure


----------



## jfarnsworth

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jason Farnsworth
-MT Moderator-*


----------



## Karazenpo

Danjo said:
			
		

> It may be that the upper level Black Belts I saw weren't that good (though they seemed pretty good to me at the time), or maybe I am too unspophisticated to discerne the difference between a 5th, 6th and 7th degree in performance. Several people tell me that they weren't very impressed with Nick Cerio, though he seemed pretty good to me. Maybe I need greater exposure



Hey Danjo, I don't think you need greater exposure, just remember what they say about opinions......they're like ********, everybody has one!


----------



## Karazenpo

akja said:
			
		

> Joe,
> I very humbly appreciate your kind words. You almost seem to know me I thats part of the reason why I hold you and your opinions is very high regards. The other reasons you already know. you "live them" everyday.
> Respectfully, Your brother Jim :asian:



Thank you, Jim, Your brother, Joe


----------



## James Kovacich

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Actually he's in your area (Anaheim) teaching now.  Greg Lagera.  He's got a kids program called "Crazy Dragons".
> I don't think AKJA was old enough to really know what was going on with his instructor and some of the seniors at the time.  But those fences were mended a long time ago.
> In fact I was witness to his promotion to 8th degree professor last september, so obviously he's not on the outs in Kajukenbo.


You're right! I was young and Sifu was not that much older (6 years). As as it turns out he now is a few generations downline from one of those Seniors (RIP). :asian:  

I'm glad you know of him and that he is doing well. do you know the name of his new school? I would think that Crazy Dragons would of been in the name, not in his kids program. I spoke to him just before the Visalia gathering and he wanted me to go and I regret not doing so but life is not always that easy.

About me, when I speak, I do speak the truth.


----------



## USKS1

AKJA,

Aloha,
I remember Professor Lagera and the crazy dragons.. They used to hit the local San Jose tournaments, and they were good fighters.. I used to live right around the corner from Sifu Steve Kantonemi's school when he was on Alum Rock ave. Right next to a bar called the "Dog House"... There's some stories right there, but not for this forum... LOL.

Also Richie Barrefield used to make a good show at the tournaments.. 

I heard the stories on Prof Greg, but you know what, like Sigung John said, the fences have been mended..  But 1 thing you could say about the crazy dragons, is that they came to fight.. 

Anyway, just wanted to say hi.. Looks like we may have run in some of the same circles. 

Take care

Dean.


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> Count Dante was'nt really flamboyant, I think he was more likely to be called outrageous.  He advocated training is sweats with tennis shoes on.  street cloths.  He stated in a magazine that a boxer was better trained to win a street fight.  He felt the "ritual of Kata" over took the conditioning aspects of the arts.  For a Non Chinese to make these sytaemets in the early 70's - outrageous.
> One of Count dante's "things" was to go into a bar on the south side of chicago and basically pick a fight - Scandeleous.
> My teacher's teacher met Count Dante, basically summed it up "A cracked egg, but mastered the physicl art"
> Todd



Todd, now don't jump on me for this one but.............lol. Here goes, yup, the old Count was definitely 99 cents short of a dollar but let's just think about a few of his way out concepts and his 'rationale' behind them, ya, believe it or not, in some ways there was a method to his madness.

Street clothes in training, I agree. You don't have to have it as the norm but it should be part of the program. This is the standard that police training stresses around the world. Whenever you go to the range, do your tactical, do your defensive tactics, the rule of thumb is you dress how you dress on your tour of duty. Whatever your uniform of the day is the majority of the time is what you train in, make sense to me! I haven't mixed it up for real in a gi yet.

Okay, boxers? my community was a boxing town before any martial arts exposure and I knew several and I did a little bit prior to my kempo days. One thing you can count on with a boxer in a street situation is his reaction to a punch in the nose is a punch back! That's a given. You also know he can take it as well as dish it out. A measure of a person's toughness is not how much they can dish out but how much they can take. Let's also not forget the physical conditining required to box. Go back to the life and times of John Keehan. 'Point' karate. Remember a point champ by the name of Everet 'Monster Man' Eddy? Truly a monster (size) of a man but couldn't make the transition into what was called in 1974 full contact karate due to a glass jaw? Unlike boxing, you can't always count on karate people, especially back in Keehan's day.

No, you can't go picking fights in bars although look at Chow and Emperado's group back in the old red light districts of Hawaii but agreed, that was then, this is now. However, he allowed drinking and smoking in his dojo and it sounded completely ludicrious then, still is, I wouldn't do it but look at his reasoning. Where did the term barroom brawl come from? I can tell you as a cop that where there's booze, guys and girls there are fights. His rationale, to quote Detective Harry Callahan in Magnum Force is 'a good man should no his limitations, so drink a six pack or two and a couple of shots and see how good you are now. Todd, on some issues he was ahead of his time and and I agree with your instructors analysis:"A cracked egg, but mastered the physical art" and If I may add, he knew a lot about reality fighting.


----------



## The Kai

I also remember seeing a picture where the inside of his dojo lookes like a alley, not cleaned up movie garbage, but real junk!  I though maybe I did'nt remember right but it would fit in with your recollections.  Also, realize that his work out cloths were the old grey sweats and chuck taylor high top sneaks (lloked kinda funny).  Whether he was that good or that willing to fight, Count still is remembered in the windy city!.

Funny, you never hear the phrase "Things got better when we started drinking"
Take Care
Todd


----------



## James Kovacich

USKS1 said:
			
		

> AKJA,
> 
> Aloha,
> I remember Professor Lagera and the crazy dragons.. They used to hit the local San Jose tournaments, and they were good fighters.. I used to live right around the corner from Sifu Steve Kantonemi's school when he was on Alum Rock ave. Right next to a bar called the "Dog House"... There's some stories right there, but not for this forum... LOL.
> 
> Also Richie Barrefield used to make a good show at the tournaments..
> 
> I heard the stories on Prof Greg, but you know what, like Sigung John said, the fences have been mended..  But 1 thing you could say about the crazy dragons, is that they came to fight..
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to say hi.. Looks like we may have run in some of the same circles.
> 
> Take care
> 
> Dean.


Yea, I know the doghouse. Not far there, theres another Kaju school thats been there for a very long time (corner of Alum Rock & White). Don't know him but I always wanted to peek in. I've heard a lot of stories myself but the best one is my own. My brother-in-law helped me "see another light" through the martial arts and he will always get that credit  no matter how our family is. When I left him I went looking for Greg and as it turned out many years later he found me. 

You're in Hawaii now? My mothers first cousin was born,raised and still resides in Hawaii and is half Chinese. I should see if any of them are martial artists.

I'm better with faces than names but I run into a lot of the guys from back in the day. Especcially when I used to work out in Golds Gym.
Take care


----------



## Danjo

The Kai said:
			
		

> I also remember seeing a picture where the inside of his dojo lookes like a alley, not cleaned up movie garbage, but real junk! I though maybe I did'nt remember right but it would fit in with your recollections. Also, realize that his work out cloths were the old grey sweats and chuck taylor high top sneaks (lloked kinda funny). Whether he was that good or that willing to fight, Count still is remembered in the windy city!.
> 
> Funny, you never hear the phrase "Things got better when we started drinking"
> Take Care
> Todd


He also liked to use combinations, ala Kenpo/Kempo called "Defensive Forms" one called the Dance of Death (no relation to the Parker form I'm told). He would challenge martial artist interviewers to fight him before an interview if they came with any doubts according to Black Belt Journalist Massad Ayoob. (sorry for going off topic with this stuff).


----------



## James Kovacich

The Kai said:
			
		

> I also remember seeing a picture where the inside of his dojo lookes like a alley, not cleaned up movie garbage, but real junk!  I though maybe I did'nt remember right but it would fit in with your recollections.  Also, realize that his work out cloths were the old grey sweats and chuck taylor high top sneaks (lloked kinda funny).  Whether he was that good or that willing to fight, Count still is remembered in the windy city!.
> 
> Funny, you never hear the phrase "Things got better when we started drinking"
> Take Care
> Todd


I remember Count Dante too. Can't forget the cover he did for one of the mags. with his red sweatshirt (I think it read something like black dragon fighting society) and I think Gung Fu pants. HE WAS A RENEGADE. Some have tried to tie him to the Oakland JKD school but I don't think so.


----------



## Karazenpo

Danjo said:
			
		

> He also liked to use combinations, ala Kenpo/Kempo called "Defensive Forms" one called the Dance of Death (no relation to the Parker form I'm told). He would challenge martial artist interviewers to fight him before an interview if they came with any doubts according to Black Belt Journalist Massad Ayoob. (sorry for going off topic with this stuff).



Hey Danjo, yeah, I remember something like that only Dance of Death in Parker's Kenpo is a technique and as a matter of fact Nick Cerio's Kenpo has a technique called Dance of Death also but it was inspired by your #2 combination, an original Karazenpo technique. Keehan's (Count Dante) coming from Robert Trias must have been influenced by Okinawan Shorei ryu's Naihanchi ( Dance of Death) shodan kata, Trias later referred to his style as Shuri-Te. Kajukenbo also has a form (not technique) based on Naihanchi shodan. Almost forgot, Mitose had his Naihanchi form too from Okinawan karate.


----------



## USKS1

akja said:
			
		

> Yea, I know the doghouse. Not far there, theres another Kaju school thats been there for a very long time (corner of Alum Rock & White). Don't know him but I always wanted to peek in. I've heard a lot of stories myself but the best one is my own. My brother-in-law helped me "see another light" through the martial arts and he will always get that credit no matter how our family is. When I left him I went looking for Greg and as it turned out many years later he found me.
> 
> You're in Hawaii now? My mothers first cousin was born,raised and still resides in Hawaii and is half Chinese. I should see if any of them are martial artists.
> 
> I'm better with faces than names but I run into a lot of the guys from back in the day. Especcially when I used to work out in Golds Gym.
> Take care


I hear ya... The school on Alum Rock & White is Tony Kattengils school. I trained at Sigung Brian Yoshii's school in Santa Clara.

Not in Hawaii, I am in Texas, moved out here about 10-11 years ago.

Maybe we will cross paths sometime.. Take care

Dean.


----------



## James Kovacich

USKS1 said:
			
		

> I hear ya... The school on Alum Rock & White is Tony Kattengils school. I trained at Sigung Brian Yoshii's school in Santa Clara.
> 
> Not in Hawaii, I am in Texas, moved out here about 10-11 years ago.
> 
> Maybe we will cross paths sometime.. Take care
> 
> Dean.


Yes, we may. My wifes family is from Texas, half are still there and my father-in-law is coming home (to San Jose) from San Antonio this week. Ther are always asking when we are going to visit too.


----------



## Michael Billings

This thread has drifted way off course.  Please, keep the conversation on topic or start a new thread re: the current dialogue.  

 Thanks,
 -Michael Billings
 -MT S-Moderator


----------



## KENPOJOE

Hi Folks!
Boy did this thread take a left turn at albaqurue or what?
Since people have been mentioning alot of people that I have dealt with in the past or present I think I will give an overall opinion and/or comment about them...
Since Count Dante' was the last one mentioned I'll start there...
After John Keehan left Robert Trias he went to Ed Parker. He trained at the pasadena studio for 2 weeks at a time when he was on the west coast. John Mcsweeny vividly remembered training with Keehan under Parker and mentioned it in his memior book "Battleaxe:A Warrior's Tale" and in coversations with me at the 2001 Gathering of the eagles in Las Vegas, where he detailed out the training with Keehan under Mr. Parker. BTW, the IKKA was the only kenpo organization recognized by the WKF [world karate federation] and BDFS [black dragon fighting society]{not to be confused w/ Ashida Kim's past group who fraudulantly used the name for awhile}. I know this because I was recognized by William V. Aguiar, the inheirtor of the Count Dante' system. When I saw his classes and his evaluations, I saw kenpo, which was the foundation for the Dante' system of fighting. For all his marketing, Dante' did well for himself and many of his ideas are not standards for such systems as krav maga,systema,JKD and many others.
George Elmer is the head of the American Chinese Kenpo Karate System and has a background in Tracy and Parker Kenpo as well as other arts. I have seen the man move and have known him for several years. He does not simply "parrot" the techniques of the afore mentioned styles but puts his own unique approach to the techniques as well as creating his own unique techniques indigienous to his creative thought process and applying those techniques to the new forms he has incorporated into his system. The key is "creativity" and to add to the "well of knowledge" rather than simply do exactly what someone else did and call it a new name. 
Victor "Sonny" Gascon is a long time martial artist who chose to re-enter the martial arts spotlight and educate people to his own art, Karazenpo Goshinjutsu, He freely acknowledged his former master, Adriano Emperado, to the point where he asks his student to no longer to him [gascon] as "sijo" because as he [gascon] says "My master [emperado] is sill here, and he is "sijo". Such is the nature of this man. He now wants to share the original version of the art he created with those who chose to learn under him and not comsumed with greed regarding money or his art. He simply wants everyone to be happy and is overwhelmed with the popularity of the arts that stem from his creation.
I've had the honor and privilage to have worked with these men and just thought i'd share some comments about them. If you have any questions or comments please feel free to ask.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## DavidCC

Here is a direct link to the interview the original post was looking for

http://www.kempokarate.com/kempo_vs.cfm

also you can order a DVD of the interview Shihan Geary recorded with Sonny Gascon, and in a day or two he will also have posted a transcript of a January 2005 interview with Thomas Mitose. Mitose speaks his mind freely about his father and Kosho-Ryu succession and other topics...



> Geary: Do you think that Bruce Juchnik got a masters certificate from your father?
> 
> Mitose: No, that masters certificateno. The certificate he has was ...


He has asked me not to post too much of the text so that's all I can give you for now...


----------



## Thunderbolt

don't forget to post a link about mitose's transcript here so that everybody can read.

thanks


----------



## DavidCC

I'm sure that's been linked many times, it's been available for awhile.  THsi internview with Thomas Mitose took place in January 2005 and has not been previously published.

The webmaster at www.kempokarate.com has not yet gotten it posted yet but it will be there shortly...

-David


----------



## bayonet

DavidCC said:
			
		

> So while I was on my long weekend away from the hindernet i tried to imagine why you 3 or 4 guys are so worked up over Geary's rank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Jealousy - You wish you had $20,000 to spend on a piece of paper to hang on the wall or to gold-leaf your dojo decor.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, no.
> 
> BTW I noticed your founder's Shodan certificate reads American Kenpo???? Why?? Mr. Cerio didn't teach the AK curriculum. If I am wrong please correct me.
Click to expand...


----------



## dsp921

bayonet said:
			
		

> BTW I noticed your founder's Shodan certificate reads American Kenpo???? Why?? Mr. Cerio didn't teach the AK curriculum. If I am wrong please correct me.


I believe Professor Cerio use the term American Kenpo to refer to the system
he taught prior to NCK, and I also believe that he used AK on certificates 
when recognizing rank without actually ranking someone in NCK.  I think
I'm pretty close, hopefully Prof. Shuras will correct any errors in my 
statements as he would know more than I.
AK is not to be confused with EPAK,  you are correct that Professor 
Cerio did not teach the EPAK curriculum.


----------



## Han-Mi

Didn't read all 8 pages of these posts, but in case nobody else mentioned this, That interview is completely one sided and is aone HUGE formal falacy. 
It is a reference to a false authority and a too small of a pool of information. I think, anyway I took a class on critical thinking and that basically covers it. Anyway, basically, if you are thinking of using it to recruit people drom TKD to Kempo, don't. if they have any brains they will realize that it is rediculous. it is all about who the instructor is and how they teach, it has nothing to do with the style, And  as a TKD artist, I'm kinda sick of being the current McDojang target. I understand a lot of TKD schools are bad, but not all of us, so just tell the truth and be a good instructor and do't worry about style vs style, Kenpo is great, I have a good friend that is an instructor in kenpo. he loves TKD too.

Im ranting, the interview was annoying.

Robert


----------



## The Kai

You mean the guy that studied over ten years ago in the basement of a dormintory, with no mats, equipment or bags from a fellow college student enjoys being in a Dojo more???  What do you know

Todd


----------



## DavidCC

dsp921 said:
			
		

> I believe Professor Cerio use the term American Kenpo to refer to the system
> he taught prior to NCK, and I also believe that he used AK on certificates
> when recognizing rank without actually ranking someone in NCK. I think
> I'm pretty close, hopefully Prof. Shuras will correct any errors in my
> statements as he would know more than I.
> AK is not to be confused with EPAK, you are correct that Professor
> Cerio did not teach the EPAK curriculum.


Yes, this is correct.  Prof. Cerio would award rank in "American Kenpo" when he decided to promote a person who was not a student specifically of "Nick Cerio's Kenpo".  However this was not a "recognition of rank" he did in fact promote Shihan Geary to black at that time.


----------



## dsp921

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Yes, this is correct. Prof. Cerio would award rank in "American Kenpo" when he decided to promote a person who was not a student specifically of "Nick Cerio's Kenpo". However this was not a "recognition of rank" he did in fact promote Shihan Geary to black at that time.


I wasn't referring to anyone specific, I was just pointing out reasons why
Professor Cerio would have American Kenpo on a certificate.


----------



## Karazenpo

dsp921 said:
			
		

> I wasn't referring to anyone specific, I was just pointing out reasons why
> Professor Cerio would have American Kenpo on a certificate.


 
Hello sir, yes those answers were correct. Nick Cerio certified rank in two systems, one was his original that became the foundation of the other, NCK. At one time Gm. Pesare refered to the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu he taught as Amercian Kenpo of Zenpo Go Shinjutsu. Professor Cerio, his former student, picked up on that. He told me that any system of kenpo that was not NCK, he used the generic name American Kenpo for ranking. The vast majority that came to him that wasn't NCK originally came from Villari or Villari offshoots which was essentially Cerio's original system that he taught Villari. If he decided to take you as a private student he would ask, but never pressure you, in what system do you wish to work in? Either you picked NCK or you chose to stay with your original which he would go over and, as he put it, clean up for you. Rarely were you ranked and worked in both arts. My wife and I were fortunate, we chose to stay with our original in all due respect to NCK because that was what we were the most comfortable with from so many years of training. However, the Professor also decided to train us and rank us in both. Although I have a 6th dan from him (1992) in American Kenpo, I also have a 3rd from him in NCK, as that is up to the curriuclum I had back then.


----------



## James Kovacich

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> don't forget to post a link about mitose's transcript here so that everybody can read.
> 
> thanks


http://www.kempokarate.com/history/articles.cfm


----------



## Thunderbolt

akja said:
			
		

> http://www.kempokarate.com/history/articles.cfm


finally, mitose's article is up to read. thanks for a link.


----------



## James Kovacich

:asian: 





			
				Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> finally, mitose's article is up to read. thanks for a link.


----------



## The Kai

Really not much there.  We already knew Miose the Jr did'nt like Juchnik, that Mitose Jr thinks all the rest of the certs are fakes.  I'm not knocking Mitose Jr,  but did you expect any thing else??
Quite a bucket of crabs??
Todd


----------



## Thunderbolt

The Kai said:
			
		

> Really not much there. We already knew Miose the Jr did'nt like Juchnik, that Mitose Jr thinks all the rest of the certs are fakes. I'm not knocking Mitose Jr, but did you expect any thing else??
> Quite a bucket of crabs??
> Todd


"Ed parker" name popped up in the interview but it doesn't last longer than 1 second 

not sure if he *doesn't* want to talk about it or what.???

of course, all big names in kenpo was dropped in this interview. I would say it was quite full BUT nothing is in detail EXCEPT Juchnik thing.

interesting to read. "you know what i'm saying" T.M said it more than 3 times


----------



## bayonet

Well the interview was a waste. But this is the first I have heard that Mr. Parker was thought of as a "joke" especially within his own association. But consider the source and what website this transcript is posted on. Doc if your reading please shed some light on this. It seems that Mr. Mitose was negative about everything and everybody. I wonder how much he made off of this interview!!! Anybody out there that has ever trained with Mr. Trejo will attest to his skill level. As far as the speed of Mr. Parker I think Doc would be the man to ask on this matter. I am sure some of you out there will flame me for this post but lets make it interesting. Just remember who helped get the great Bruce Lee on the scene and as many of you know, Mr. Inosanto has a BB in AK ala Mr. Parker.


----------



## John Bishop

bayonet said:
			
		

> Well the interview was a waste. But this is the first I have heard that Mr. Parker was thought of as a "joke" especially within his own association. But consider the source and what website this transcript is posted on. Doc if your reading please shed some light on this. It seems that Mr. Mitose was negative about everything and everybody. I wonder how much he made off of this interview!!! Anybody out there that has ever trained with Mr. Trejo will attest to his skill level. As far as the speed of Mr. Parker I think Doc would be the man to ask on this matter. I am sure some of you out there will flame me for this post but lets make it interesting. Just remember who helped get the great Bruce Lee on the scene and as many of you know, Mr. Inosanto has a BB in AK ala Mr. Parker.


It's obvious that Mr. Geary is not real familiar with pidgen english (Hawaiian slang and accent).  So his transcription of this interview is not exactly accurate.  
If your familiar with the people involved at the time, you'll realize that Tom was not talking about Frank "Trejo".  He was talking about Robert "Trias" and his U.S.K.A.    
He was also saying that Mr. Parkers people considered his dad a joke when he tried to show them techniques.


----------



## bayonet

Mr. Bishop, thanks for the insight into the transcript. Living in Hawaii I am used to hearing pidgin butI obviously misunderstood the translation of the interview. Thanks for setting me straight on the subject matter.


----------



## The Kai

Parkers people thought he was jike when trying to show a technique....WOW  that's a new one!

Todd


----------



## John Bishop

The Kai said:
			
		

> Parkers people thought he was jike when trying to show a technique....WOW that's a new one!
> 
> Todd


Not my words, but it's been discussed by Mr. Parker and several of his students who were present when Mitose visited the Pasadena school and showed them some of his techniques.  
Mr. Parker even discusses it in one of his "Infinite Insights" books, but a little more diplomatically.


----------



## DavidCC

bayonet said:
			
		

> Well the interview was a waste. But this is the first I have heard that Mr. Parker was thought of as a "joke" especially within his own association. But consider the source and what website this transcript is posted on. Doc if your reading please shed some light on this. .


I don't think you need Doc to shed light on this, you just need a better reading light or someting... You don't read very cloesly apparently. here is the section you are referring to:



> *Geary:* Did your father ever meet Ed Parker?
> *Mitose:* Yeah.
> *Geary:* How did that go, do you know?
> *Mitose:* They thought that he was a joke (laughs)thats what I heard.
> *Geary:* Your father thought Ed Parker was a joke?
> *Mitose:* No. Ed Parkers group thought that he was a joke (laughs)




This point was clarified IN THE INTERVIEW.




> But consider the source and what website this transcript is posted on


  sniping personal attack reported.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Thanks for the link; an interesting interview--once you get past the pompous introduction.

It brings up an interesting question--how do you know who to trust in the martial arts? I notice that there are some weird sorts of stutters in the inbterview, once Ed Parker's name comes up...but what comes through, all the same, is the idea that Mr. Mitose was doing things so sophisticated that Mr. Parker didn't understand them.

Somehow, as I wade through, "Infinite Insights," and try to figure out why those, "trick" (Thomas Mitose's words) techniques are as they are, I find that a little hard to swallow.

But more interestingly, it's a pretty reasonable interview, and explanation of some of kenpo's history. The only problem is--and this is still true of a lot of kenpo (and martial arts) today, it's also indistinguishable from charlatanry. The descriptions of Mitose's teaching methods, the account of the past, the discussion of his evasiveness about his own background--well, it might be absolutely all true. Maybe it just LOOKS like self-justifying ********...and I mean that seriously; maybe it's just an appearance.

We don't have any way to tell, other than getting on the mat--and incidentally, the most-overused adage in kenpo is undoubtedly, "Feeling is believing." No it's not, as anybody who's taught or had to deal with some of the characters in a dojo or studio should know.

There's a fair amount of Mr. Parker's own background and personal history which don't look so good, neither. And it certainly isn't just kenpo--I know I make this point a lot, but I think it bears frequent repeating: ALL the martial arts have flaky and untrustworthy accounts of their history, some truly and monumentally full-of-crap teachers and practitioners. ALL of them, too (look at aikido!) have plenty of out-and-out criminal behavior in their pasts and presents.

But I don't at all buy the claim about separating one's martial arts from one's character and actions. I think that's a terrible idea--partly, because it contributes to the present, capitalism-inspired notion that all that matters is technology and mindless efficiency. 

I thinbk that a) we need to take a good hard look at what it is that we are teaching in ourselves; b) we need to take Mitose's nasty story to heart--not because of him (he dead) but to help get at our own failings as martial artists and as people...

OK, a bit pompous. Guess the interviewer had an effect.


----------



## Karazenpo

An excerpt from Robert's post:

There's a fair amount of Mr. Parker's own background and personal history which don't look so good, neither. And it certainly isn't just kenpo--I know I make this point a lot, but I think it bears frequent repeating: ALL the martial arts have flaky and untrustworthy accounts of their history, some truly and monumentally full-of-crap teachers and practitioners. ALL of them, too (look at aikido!) have plenty of out-and-out criminal behavior in their pasts and presents.

But I don't at all buy the claim about separating one's martial arts from one's character and actions. I think that's a terrible idea--partly, because it contributes to the present, capitalism-inspired notion that all that matters is technology and mindless efficiency. 

I thinbk that a) we need to take a good hard look at what it is that we are teaching in ourselves; b) we need to take Mitose's nasty story to heart--not because of him (he dead) but to help get at our own failings as martial artists and as people...

OK, a bit pompous. Guess the interviewer had an effect.
__________________
Sincerely,
Robert 

I say: No, Robert, not pompous at all, I like it. I have always said no system, style or lineage is immmune to the B.S., the controversy and the bad actors and that is why I try to stay out of that stuff and have the philosophy of 'you mind your store and I'll mind mine'. Actually, I developed this attitude a long time ago in life when I would hear of someone badmouthing another person I knew really over just b.s. and I would interrupt and say: "Give me that person's information and two weeks and watch what I come up with! The old 'glass house syndrome', a lot of hypocrisy goes on. 

As far as seperating the man from the art, here's how I feel. Absolutely debate or research about any improprieties if you wish for the sake of either personal curiosity or historical research but that negativism should not over ride any positive contributions that individual made to the martial arts nor should that individual be cut off the family tree, especially a senior or no matter how one cuts it, a 'founder', for Mitose is the one who started this 'big bang' of Kenpo that led to many of the fine systems we have today. Just how I see it.


----------



## KENPOJOE

Hi Folks!
I realize that some people on this thread have gone on a tangent due to the interview that Mr. Geary had with Thomas Barros-Mitose. But, Please realize a couple of points here...

1.Christopher Geary is no martial arts historian. He had not read nor seen "Karate:History & Traditions" by Bruce Haines and since "What is true self defense" is extremely rare [yes, I have a copy] he would not be privy to some of the points that Thomas Mitose was eluding to on the phone.

2.Again, Because Mr. Geary is not a M.A. Historian, He did not realize that Thomas Barros Mitose had MISPRONOUNCED the name of the "Head of the USKA" which is Robert TRIAS, not TREJO as He lists in the written transcript.So, Whenever TREJO is mentioned,it's supposed to be Trias.

3.In the transcript, Thomas says that at time Mitose visited the Parker Studio [BTW, he did so on more than one occasion]That the people thought "he[james mitose] was a joke." However, If you ask Steve Hearing about one of Mitose's visits and what happened when Mitose hit him in the arm with one of his strikes, you might get a different story about how they felt about James Mitose...I know because Steve told me personally and he was there at that time!.What Mr. Parker questioned was some of the techniques that James Mitose performed, specifically one where Mitose knelt down from a standing position and punched his opponent in the foot! Later, Mr. Parker would use the incident to elaborate on the "kick to the head/punch to the foot" analogy.
Simply stated, Mr. Parker added upon the curriculum he was taught and gleamed information from many sources.

4.In regards to Bruce Juchnick,No one person has done more to promote Kosho Ryu Kempo and the legacy of James Mitose than Hanshi Juchnick. No one has made an active effort to contact all the old students of Mitose and gleam wisdom from these men and women and gather them together in one place and organize the information to assist Kosho Ryu practitioners.

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## kenmpoka

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> I realize that some people on this thread have gone on a tangent due to the interview that Mr. Geary had with Thomas Barros-Mitose. But, Please realize a couple of points here...
> 
> 1.Christopher Geary is no martial arts historian. He had not read nor seen "Karate:History & Traditions" by Bruce Haines and since "What is true self defense" is extremely rare [yes, I have a copy] he would not be privy to some of the points that Thomas Mitose was eluding to on the phone.
> 
> 2.Again, Because Mr. Geary is not a M.A. Historian, He did not realize that Thomas Barros Mitose had MISPRONOUNCED the name of the "Head of the USKA" which is Robert TRIAS, not TREJO as He lists in the written transcript.So, Whenever TREJO is mentioned,it's supposed to be Trias.
> 
> 3.In the transcript, Thomas says that at time Mitose visited the Parker Studio [BTW, he did so on more than one occasion]That the people thought "he[james mitose] was a joke." However, If you ask Steve Hearing about one of Mitose's visits and what happened when Mitose hit him in the arm with one of his strikes, you might get a different story about how they felt about James Mitose...I know because Steve told me personally and he was there at that time!.What Mr. Parker questioned was some of the techniques that James Mitose performed, specifically one where Mitose knelt down from a standing position and punched his opponent in the foot! Later, Mr. Parker would use the incident to elaborate on the "kick to the head/punch to the foot" analogy.
> Simply stated, Mr. Parker added upon the curriculum he was taught and gleamed information from many sources.
> 
> 4.In regards to Bruce Juchnick,No one person has done more to promote Kosho Ryu Kempo and the legacy of James Mitose than Hanshi Juchnick. No one has made an active effort to contact all the old students of Mitose and gleam wisdom from these men and women and gather them together in one place and organize the information to assist Kosho Ryu practitioners.
> 
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE


Great post Kenpo Joe,

For what it's worth, I agree with all four points that you made. I have heard the same story from Mr. Hearing. Besides, Bruce lee performed the same technique on Samo Hung in the movie Enter The Dragon in the opening seen, and everybody loved that one!

I have never met Mr. Juchnick personally, but I have spoken to him on the phone on couple of occasions. He has done more for Kosho Ryu than The GGM himself and his family combined.

Respectfully,


----------



## bayonet

[





> QUOTE=DavidCC]I don't think you need Doc to shed light on this, you just need a better reading light or someting... You don't read very cloesly apparently. here is the section you are referring to:


Perhaps DavidCC if you go back and read, Mr. Bishop corrected me and I do stand corrected. I admitted my foul up. BTW :cloesly is spelled closely. Go Cornhuskers!


----------



## The Kai

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> I realize that some people on this thread have gone on a tangent due to the interview that Mr. Geary had with Thomas Barros-Mitose. But, Please realize a couple of points here...
> 
> 1.Christopher Geary is no martial arts historian. He had not read nor seen "Karate:History & Traditions" by Bruce Haines and since "What is true self defense" is extremely rare [yes, I have a copy] he would not be privy to some of the points that Thomas Mitose was eluding to on the phone.
> 
> 2.Again, Because Mr. Geary is not a M.A. Historian, He did not realize that Thomas Barros Mitose had MISPRONOUNCED the name of the "Head of the USKA" which is Robert TRIAS, not TREJO as He lists in the written transcript.So, Whenever TREJO is mentioned,it's supposed to be Trias.
> 
> 3.In the transcript, Thomas says that at time Mitose visited the Parker Studio [BTW, he did so on more than one occasion]That the people thought "he[james mitose] was a joke." However, If you ask Steve Hearing about one of Mitose's visits and what happened when Mitose hit him in the arm with one of his strikes, you might get a different story about how they felt about James Mitose...I know because Steve told me personally and he was there at that time!.What Mr. Parker questioned was some of the techniques that James Mitose performed, specifically one where Mitose knelt down from a standing position and punched his opponent in the foot! Later, Mr. Parker would use the incident to elaborate on the "kick to the head/punch to the foot" analogy.
> Simply stated, Mr. Parker added upon the curriculum he was taught and gleamed information from many sources.
> 
> 4.In regards to Bruce Juchnick,No one person has done more to promote Kosho Ryu Kempo and the legacy of James Mitose than Hanshi Juchnick. No one has made an active effort to contact all the old students of Mitose and gleam wisdom from these men and women and gather them together in one place and organize the information to assist Kosho Ryu practitioners.
> 
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE


Great post
Really Hanshi Juchnich has also helped Thomas Mitose get some press-I have an old article with the both of them in it!

BTW-I also missreads part of the interview, about Parker and Mitose so I apologize
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

kenmpoka said:
			
		

> Great post Kenpo Joe,
> 
> For what it's worth, I agree with all four points that you made. I have heard the same story from Mr. Hearing. Besides, Bruce lee performed the same technique on Samo Hung in the movie Enter The Dragon in the opening seen, and everybody loved that one!
> 
> I have never met Mr. Juchnick personally, but I have spoken to him on the phone on couple of occasions. He has done more for Kosho Ryu than The GGM himself and his family combined.
> 
> Respectfully,



Brother Peter and myself have discussed this before. I've never heard anyone else criticize Bruce Lee for that scene, as Peter stated, everyone loved it!


----------



## DavidCC

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> 1.Christopher Geary is no martial arts historian. He had not read nor seen "Karate:History & Traditions" by Bruce Haines and since "What is true self defense" is extremely rare [yes, I have a copy] he would not be privy to some of the points that Thomas Mitose was eluding to on the phone.
> 
> 2.Again, Because Mr. Geary is not a M.A. Historian, He did not realize that Thomas Barros Mitose had MISPRONOUNCED the name of the "Head of the USKA" which is Robert TRIAS, not TREJO as He lists in the written transcript.So, Whenever TREJO is mentioned,it's supposed to be Trias.
> 
> ...
> 
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE


Joe,
Can you elaborate on #1 please 

I have pointed out #2 to Shihan Geary and we will get that fixed ASAP. 

Also, in the interview where TM was talking about his dad and EP... it sounded to me like TM was only repeating what he had read in Infinite Insights or somewhere, and not relating anything he knew first-hand.  Doc Chapel has discussed a visit Mitose made to the studio one day when he was there, in a previous thread.

Thanks!

PS-
I have been strictly advised by the owners of this board not to respond to any more posts that attack my school or instructors.  So I would greatly appreciate it if the attacks would stop.  Thank you.


----------



## bayonet

QUOTE=





> DavidCC]I've been warned not to reply to any more of your BS on the public boards, I guess you AK guys gotta watch each others' backs. But I just thought I would let you know that this summer you will get your wish! You may never be in Nebraska and so it was safe for you to say how you would set us straight if you were... Well guess what! Chris Geary and some of his instrcutors are coming to Hawaii. I hope I get to go becasue I would like to correct some of your misconceptions myself, in person.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you were just talking cowardly internet bravado BS, but just in case your cajones are as big as your mouth, we should be easy to find - the Hawaiian Martial Arts Society is naming us school of the year. So you get your chance to prove that a guy who took 5yrs to get his brown belt really CAN judge black belts' performance. See you this summer![/


#1. If my posts were so bad, nobody from Martial Talk ever emailed me to stop.

#2. Do you also personal email the Dark Kenpo Lord? Maybe go back and read some past posts.
#3. DO you really think threats will make me change my mind?
#4. Grow up. This is an open forum and everything is subject to opinion.

And last, do what you wish, we really don't care.


----------



## Kenpoist

It took this guy eight years to go from 1st degree to 6th degree - when it usually takes a minimum of 20 years? Though I don't know this instructor - from an outside point of view - it does sound a little suspicious.  To get to 6th in most systems - it is an honor of time in grade, which adds up to about 20 years.  Now some people are exceptional practioners, but they still have to pay their dues and be patient. I'm sure he is a talented MA, but sometimes ones marketing and self promotion goes a little too far - in my opinion. One must practice humility!


----------



## KENPOJOE

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Joe,
> Can you elaborate on #1 please
> 
> I have pointed out #2 to Shihan Geary and we will get that fixed ASAP.
> 
> Also, in the interview where TM was talking about his dad and EP... it sounded to me like TM was only repeating what he had read in Infinite Insights or somewhere, and not relating anything he knew first-hand.  Doc Chapel has discussed a visit Mitose made to the studio one day when he was there, in a previous thread.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> PS-
> I have been strictly advised by the owners of this board not to respond to any more posts that attack my school or instructors.  So I would greatly appreciate it if the attacks would stop.  Thank you.


Hi Folks!
Hey Davecc,
As far as the first point goes...I mention that because Mr. Geary had not read the books mentioned, he was not aware of certain points that mitose made during the interview that he would have been aware of had he read those texts as opposed to those of us who have no lives! LOL! [yes,like me!!]
I call myself a historian  because those who have met me and seem my collection or spoken on various topics have called me that...so the title stuck.

as far as point 2 goes, glad to hear it will be fixed!

as far as point 3, Thomas was not there but huk planas,steve hearing were there as well as others so they are the ones to ask about it.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

kenmpoka said:
			
		

> Great post Kenpo Joe,
> 
> For what it's worth, I agree with all four points that you made. I have heard the same story from Mr. Hearing. Besides, Bruce lee performed the same technique on Samo Hung in the movie Enter The Dragon in the opening seen, and everybody loved that one!
> 
> I have never met Mr. Juchnick personally, but I have spoken to him on the phone on couple of occasions. He has done more for Kosho Ryu than The GGM himself and his family combined.
> 
> Respectfully,



Hi Peter,
Saw your website recently and I want to add your logo to my kenpo patch collection! As far as the ETD reference with Bruce Lee and Samo Hung doing the same move,What are you refering to?
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5167

DarK  LorD


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

http://web.naplesnews.com/sections/marco/eagle/2000/december27/karate.html

Thought David CC should see this as he's always bagging on Kenpo people with lots of red on their belt.

DarK LorD


----------



## kenmpoka

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Peter,
> Saw your website recently and I want to add your logo to my kenpo patch collection! As far as the ETD reference with Bruce Lee and Samo Hung doing the same move,What are you refering to?
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


Hey Joe,

The ETD reference is at the very beginning of the movie where Bruce Lee drops down on one knee, punches Samo on top of the foot, Samo lifts his leg, then BL grabs his leg and throws him to the ground.....

Which patch are you interested in?

Salute,


----------



## kenmpoka

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> http://web.naplesnews.com/sections/marco/eagle/2000/december27/karate.html
> 
> Thought David CC should see this as he's always bagging on Kenpo people with lots of red on their belt.
> 
> DarK LorD



Hey Dark Lord,

Thank you for posting the link..."Apple does not fall far from the tree". Pretty consistant with the behavior amongst the people of his original lineage. IMHO.

I hope that my friend reports this to GM. Gascon....... 

Salute,


----------



## GAB

Hi all,

The interview was one that proves if you keep your mouth closed and don't say anything sometimes you are better off. Then Geary edits it and does not say he did, talk about conspiracy. LOL

Geary has a nice web site, you have to give it to him for that, going to get an award for it also...I am going to go to Hawaii for a vacation, I will try to make it at that date and time. Need to do a little more research...

After watching a DVD with Mike Brown and Hanshi Bruce along with some more information I have found out, it just gets clearer and clearer as to the various agenda's that are floating around...Since many people have said that Mike Brown is a very forthright person and doing his home work, I would suggest you spend a little time and research on the DVD "Truth"...Very worth your while.

While on that topic anyone here going to go to the Seminar that is being put on in Sacramento? Tracy Kenpo and Mitose stuff by GM Ray Arquilla, you can go to the site at www.sanjosekenpo.com and get more information...  

I wonder how this fugitive thing will play out for Geary??? Maybe he could give us his side of it...I know David CC is tired of the slam but he needs to keep in the hot seat for awhile, at least till this "Fugitive from Flordia" is addressed, or arrested...

Like I have said in other discussions "Rumor and inuendo is the gas that runs the engine of martial arts."

But fact is better then fiction on this one anyhow...

Thanks Dark Lord for the information...

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

PHP:
	

 The interview was one that proves if you keep your mouth closed and don't say anything sometimes you are better off. Then Geary edits it and does not say he did, talk about conspiracy. LOL

I wondered what are you talking about, if the interview is not original, have you seen the unedited version.
That being said, I wondered what is his motivation for interviewing SGM Mitose.  In terms of lineage and location he is not really in the loop what so ever.  I'm sorry but it is not really any of his business.  Also it seems that he is not really a student of the history, so it is not for posterity.  Whatever goes on (or went on between) Hanshi Juchnik and SGM Mitose is between them (or their people).


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> PHP:
> 
> 
> The interview was one that proves if you keep your mouth closed and don't say anything sometimes you are better off. Then Geary edits it and does not say he did, talk about conspiracy. LOL
> 
> *****
> Hi Kai,
> 
> Yes, I saw the original and John Bishop makes mention that it will or was changed...I then checked again and yes it was changed...
> 
> Part of the interview that makes Thomas look like he is off in never never is that part, so it should be noted if you change it. With the information that Dark Lord presented it is now pretty obvious that Geary is not quite sterling.
> *****
> 
> I wondered what are you talking about, if the interview is not original, have you seen the unedited version.
> ****
> YES, Todd I did, in fact I discussed it with several persons prior to it being displayed at www.Sanjosekenpo.com/  I am in the loop more then you realize...
> I have been talking to Hanshi Bruce about setting up an area on a board just for the discussion of Kosho Ryu since it seems to have so much misinformation out and many persons in higher positions want to slam him through their mouthpieces...Ah yes, the conspiracy theory again, yep up and running...
> 
> ****
> That being said, I wondered what is his motivation for interviewing SGM Mitose. In terms of lineage and location he is not really in the loop what so ever. I'm sorry but it is not really any of his business. Also it seems that he is not really a student of the history, so it is not for posterity. Whatever goes on (or went on between) Hanshi Juchnik and SGM Mitose is between them (or their people).


I see what you are writing and some of it is correct, but it can not all be kept in the closet like you desire... Open and honest is the best way, it is very nice to have discussion boards that are run that way, as long as we remain civil...

The truth hurts sometimes, but it is still the truth...

Obviously this Geary is a very unusual person to say the least, I will be very surprised if he is given an award for his website after this thread is read by some and then hopefully told to Sijo Gascon...

I would think that Professor Joe Shuras is very aware of this and will take the correct and prudent path.

But who knows, maybe he will give us an interview about his goings on prior to this centuries caper...

Regards, Gary


----------



## James Kovacich

kenmpoka said:
			
		

> Hey Dark Lord,
> 
> Thank you for posting the link..."Apple does not fall far from the tree". Pretty consistant with the behavior amongst the people of his original lineage. IMHO.
> 
> I hope that my friend reports this to GM. Gascon.......
> 
> Salute,


What "original lineage" are you speaking of? And please don't speak in riddles, just say it.

If I'm not mistaking, his first black belt was from Nick Cerio.


----------



## kenmpoka

akja said:
			
		

> What "original lineage" are you speaking of? And please don't speak in riddles, just say it.
> 
> If I'm not mistaking, his first black belt was from Nick Cerio.


A lot of people claim that they studied with Professor Cerio. Just because they have a certificate, it does not mean they studied with him! Let's leave it at that for now. 

Salute,


----------



## James Kovacich

kenmpoka said:
			
		

> A lot of people claim that they studied with Professor Cerio. Just because they have a certificate, it does not mean they studied with him! Let's leave it at that for now.
> 
> Salute,


Yes, you're right but it does not mean that they did not either. 

All I wanted to know was what lineage you were tlaking about. Thats all.

No disrespect intended but my Instructor was involved and your lineage comment "hits close to home."


----------



## DavidCC

akja said:
			
		

> Yes, you're right but it does not mean that they did not either.
> 
> All I wanted to know was what lineage you were tlaking about. Thats all.
> 
> No disrespect intended but my Instructor was involved and your lineage comment "hits close to home."


Careful, I have been instructed by mgmt that you have no standing to defend your instructor, however he may certainly come and post here himself...


----------



## DavidCC

The Florida story is old news, it was all settled a long time ago, and there was a lot more to the story than what was published in the naples news, by a reporter who is related to some of the people involved.  That's how small towns (Marco Island) operate.  Do you think you are the first person to read that article?  I can't say first hand, but I am sure the KGS people are aware of that old news and how it all turned out, years ago.


I don't bag on people "with red on their belt" not sure what you meant.

The Mitose interview was recorded last month, so who read what before?  I don't follow you GAB.  You said -> "Geary edits it and does not say he did, talk about conspiracy. LOL"  so, you mean, he should put a note at the bottom "when I originally posted this I had a name wrong but I fixed it" haha what for???

bayonet - you got away with posting the text of an email which I would never have been allowed to post directly.  thanks! and thanks for the info about you not getting warned... Seig refused to confirm or deny if anyone else had warnings about posts.  So you all be the judge.  Read my posts, read bayonet's, read dark lord's... I'm about to get suspended for what I wrote, this post might just do it.  I will prolly get dinged for bayonet posting that email haha.  


but anyway... not that I will be around to read it, but 

KenpoJoe - I understood what you wrote, I was hoping you might describe what some of those points ARE.  but don't bother posting, maybe email me if you want to talk about it.  This thread is for trashing and bashing.

Seig - isn't it ironic that bullshido got mentioned here ROFL now this thread is not only similar to a bullshido style thread, it now explicitly is part of it.  And no I don't think anything on BS is "appropriate" as you described it, which is why I compared this thread to that site.  An affinity DKL made completely obvious for us all.

cya


----------



## Thunderbolt

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> http://web.naplesnews.com/sections/marco/eagle/2000/december27/karate.html
> 
> Thought David CC should see this as he's always bagging on Kenpo people with lots of red on their belt.
> 
> DarK LorD


I'm very suprised to see how loyal David CC is to his instructor. Defend to death heh.? right or wrong doesn't matter. Good or bad still doesn't matter. What is matter to you, David CC.?

Did Nick Cerios award a black belt to this guy.? Yes or No confirmation pls 

Good find Dark Lord.


----------



## James Kovacich

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> Did Nick Cerios award a black belt to this guy.? Yes or No confirmation pls
> 
> .


*Yes, inquiring minds want to know. Fact please, not hearsay*.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

DavidCC said:
			
		

> out, years ago.
> 
> 
> I don't bag on people "with red on their belt" not sure what you meant.


Well David, this is your reply to me on Martial Arts Planet, you remember now?
------------------------------------------------------------------







 20-Jul-2004, 02:46 PM 
[url="http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/image.php?u=1789&dateline=1060273306"]http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/image.php?u=1789&dateline=1060273306[/url]KenpoDavid





 vbmenu_register("postmenu_257791", true); 
Working Title
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Bellevue, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 1,053 

you can always tell a multi-black EPAk guy by the size of his HEAD. Sad but true. Very few excpetions. Prove me wrong I dare you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






------------------------------------------------------------- 
Seems your memory needs a little shake.

DarK LorD


----------



## GAB

Hi DavidCC,

I read that interview and the name in it was not Trias when I read it...
You talked about it on this thread, it was then changed, edited! OK....

Are you going to fall on your sword for this guy, lighten up, hang in there...

Have him fess up and show it was edited, no biggie as long as he does...

Otherwise it is not in compliance with the first rule of Kenpo...(tracy kenpo) It is from the book of five rings...

******

The Mitose interview was recorded last month, so who read what before? I don't follow you GAB. You said -> "Geary edits it and does not say he did, talk about conspiracy. LOL" so, you mean, he should put a note at the bottom "when I originally posted this I had a name wrong but I fixed it" haha what for??? 


but anyway... not that I will be around to read it, but 

****
David you can still read while suspended, you just can not post...


 I believe you need a heart to heart with your Sensei so you don't take all the flak...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Seig

ADMIN NOTE

KEEP IT POLITE AND RESPECTFULL
Feel free to use the ignore feature.
I am about one post away from locking this thread.

Seig
Ops Admin


----------



## Pacificshore

Seig said:
			
		

> ADMIN NOTE
> 
> KEEP IT POLITE AND RESPECTFULL
> Feel free to use the ignore feature.
> I am about one post away from locking this thread.
> 
> Seig
> Ops Admin


Why not lock it?? There isn't anything else that needs to be said about this post is there?


----------



## DavidCC

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Well David, this is your reply to me on Martial Arts Planet, you remember now?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20-Jul-2004, 02:46 PM
> [url="http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/image.php?u=1789&dateline=1060273306"]http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/image.php?u=1789&dateline=1060273306[/url]KenpoDavid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vbmenu_register("postmenu_257791", true);
> Working Title
> Join Date: Jul 2003
> Location: Bellevue, Nebraska, USA
> Posts: 1,053
> 
> you can always tell a multi-black EPAk guy by the size of his HEAD. Sad but true. Very few excpetions. Prove me wrong I dare you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Seems your memory needs a little shake.
> 
> DarK LorD


 
hilarious, I didn't remember that, and I didn't know you were the same guy.  I stand by it though.

I seem to remember you proved me RIGHT ROFL


----------



## GAB

Pacificshore said:
			
		

> Why not lock it?? There isn't anything else that needs to be said about this post is there?


Hi Seig,

Could you shed some light on the statement made by DavidCC?
He is implying if he tries to defend his Sensei he will be suspended??? OR???

I realize the topic has gotten off the original title, should we start another and continue or just let it die out???

Regards, Gary


----------



## DavidCC

akja said:
			
		

> *Yes, inquiring minds want to know. Fact please, not hearsay*.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=335736&postcount=12

this post includes a scanned image of an article from Prof Cerio's newsletter wherein the author indicates that Shihan Geary was promoted to black by Prof Cerio.  I can show you scan image of the certificate, but this ought to be enough...


----------



## DavidCC

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Seig,
> 
> Could you shed some light on the statement made by DavidCC?
> He is implying if he tries to defend his Sensei he will be suspended??? OR???
> 
> I realize the topic has gotten off the original title, should we start another and continue or just let it die out???
> 
> Regards, Gary


More info sent to your private message box.


----------



## MJS

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Seig,
> 
> Could you shed some light on the statement made by DavidCC?
> He is implying if he tries to defend his Sensei he will be suspended??? OR???
> 
> I realize the topic has gotten off the original title, should we start another and continue or just let it die out???
> 
> Regards, Gary



Hi Gary!  While I will not speak for Seig, I may be able to shed a little light on the matter.  After a few Mod/Admin warnings to keep things on a friendly level, respectful, not sniping, etc. it seems that those warnings are going ignored.  When the threads start taking the direction of heated posts, the Mods/Admins step in and deal with the situation accordingly.  Individual warnings, suspensions, or banning are all options that they have available to them.

Maybe to avoid having the thread locked, we can all tone it down slightly and try to bring the thread back to its original topic.

Mike


----------



## DavidCC

The original topic was "where can I find this page on the internet" and that was answered about 100 posts back...


----------



## MJS

DavidCC said:
			
		

> The original topic was "where can I find this page on the internet" and that was answered about 100 posts back...



Yes Sir, you're correct.  However, the thread has now taken the course of a heated slam-fest.  

Mike


----------



## GAB

DavidCC said:
			
		

> The original topic was "where can I find this page on the internet" and that was answered about 100 posts back...


Hi David,

Thanks for the information, I tried to send you one but your in box is full, if you delete some I will try again later...


Hi MJS,

I appreciate your time and I understand...

Regards, Gary


Hi all,

I was just trying to find out some more information, I think we ought to let this go. David's Gm needs to step up to the plate...
 :whip:


Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

Hi guys, I just caught up with this topic today and just noticed a situation I was asked to look into. First, Brother Peter Teymourez' remark on lineage wasn't directed at Professor Cerio. Peter and I talk periodically via landline and I know exactly who he means and it has to do with a senior whose system Shihan Geary did the bulk of his training with up to, brown belt, just before his shodan. However, I respect Peter's wishes, if he wanted to mention the name he would, he didn't, so neither will I. 

As far as the article goes, correct David, it's an old article and someone I converse with e-mailed it to me a while ago and I brought it to Mr. Geary's attention of which he spoke openly about the incident. Sijo Gascon did indeed spend time in conference with Mr. Geary about this matter when he joined the KGS BBS PRIOR to his promotion. I understand Hanshi Lou Angel who first awarded Geary his 6th dan before Sonny Gascon, was also made aware, in both instances, by Mr. Geary himself. Sijo Gascon made his decision and it stands. If anyone has any questions about it either contact him or see him in person on his 2005 seminar and school visits schedule. He will be all over the country from California to New York, Rhode Island, Massachusetts and several other states. As far as Hanshi Angel goes, e-mail or call him. He always responds to his e-mails. Good luck.

In closing I'll say this. As a police officer of nearly three decades, we learn there are two sides to every story and some even say the truth lies somewhere in the middle. When it comes to relationships and restraining orders and the like, I'll say this. How many on this forum have either been victimized or know someone that was victimized by someone's scorn? Be honest. I'm not passing judgement one way or the other for it wasn't my case and didn't involve me in any way, shape, form so 'I mind my own business'. An attorney on a radio talk show recently stated perjury is being committed everyday on affidavits for R.O.'s. It's too bad because some are sincere and honest when they apply for an R.O. and not using it as revenge against someone. I do have my limits on being outspoken and those are for crimes that shock the conscience as in the Mitose/Lee situation. Again, I will raise what I like to call the 'glass house syndrome'. You see, law enforcement officers have access to what we call out here as B.O.P.'s-Board of Parole record checks. However, this information is kept confidential through what was passed in Mass. as the Cory Act so it doesn't affect one's livelyhood. I WILL SAY THIS. If some of you only knew the people teaching martial arts and I also mean popular instructors in ALL LINEAGES of ALL STYLES, with FELONY records from the present to past, you would be humbled over passing judgement on people of other systems. This is no joke, gentlemen, I'm sure their are other cops or some civillians on this forum who are privy to what I'm saying. On other topics here, I think on the Locker Room section, some of you have made comments about cops (me included) being too hard on certain offenders by giving them parole and a chance at a new life. This was in reference to repeat offenders of violent crimes (sex crimes, child molesters, etc.) and I stand by my beliefs. Yet, right here, you're showcasing a situation that from what I recall didn't even warrant incarceration. I wonder how many on this forum have either been arrested or have a  friend, family member or loved one that was arrested? This is why I say 'you mind your store and I'll mind mine'.

With respect to all, Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## Karazenpo

Sorry, forgot this one. Gary, in all honesty, the editing of the interview was a correction that was initially brought to light on this forum by KenpoJoe Rebelo. Joe told me about it at Nick Cerio's Legacy Memorial and said he was going to post on it. He noticed the mistake, probably due to accent, Trejo mistaken for Trias. I believe that would go along the lines of something like a 'typo' but it certainly didn't have any malicious intent. It was a correction.

Take care & be safe, Prof. Joe


----------



## The Kai

As far as the actions taken in FL, if his students are comfortable following the leader.....  

it is a thorny issue when you get up and statrt waving your "credintials" around.  At first I said he might be a hell of a teacher, you never know.  Does he give martial arts a black eye, yes-but its allright cuz he's not the only one

Is there a schedual for Mr Gascones Tour??

This thread has pretty much run its course


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> As far as the actions taken in FL, if his students are comfortable following the leader.....
> 
> it is a thorny issue when you get up and statrt waving your "credintials" around. At first I said he might be a hell of a teacher, you never know. Does he give martial arts a black eye, yes-but its allright cuz he's not the only one
> 
> Is there a schedual for Mr Gascones Tour??
> 
> This thread has pretty much run its course


Hi Kai and all,

Joe that was a good one and thanks for the follow up on my thoughts...

Now for you guys that want to close this...If they had, we would not have received the last couple of good posts...So lets let it run some more, only with a civility that should always be there...

Regards, Gary


----------



## James Kovacich

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I wonder how many on this forum have either been arrested or have a  friend, family member or loved one that was arrested? This is why I say 'you mind your store and I'll mind mine'.
> 
> With respect to all, Professor Joe Shuras



You got me. I did a few years. :uhyeah: Of course I know you're not wondering about me but this is not the first time that I've talked about this and I think it's important for people to know that some people have done some things that others would not do. But they are still good people in their hearts and thats what matters.

I'm not shy about where I've been. I always tell it straight. But I'm not a felon and thats the good news and I haven't had a drink or anything else for a long time. That was another life. 

But I also recognize to some, I will always be guilty. Their ignorance, not mine. 

My old instructor used to be a pretty wild guy and apparrently he's become a respected martial artist. I guess rehabilitation works for some.
You're Brother, Jim


----------



## Karazenpo

akja said:
			
		

> You got me. I did a few years. :uhyeah: Of course I know you're not wondering about me but this is not the first time that I've talked about this and I think it's important for people to know that some people have done some things that others would not do. But they are still good people in their hearts and thats what matters.
> 
> I'm not shy about where I've been. I always tell it straight. But I'm not a felon and thats the good news and I haven't had a drink or anything else for a long time. That was another life.
> 
> But I also recognize to some, I will always be guilty. Their ignorance, not mine.
> 
> My old instructor used to be a pretty wild guy and apparrently he's become a respected martial artist. I guess rehabilitation works for some.
> You're Brother, Jim



Thank you Jim. You are stand up guy but I've already told you that before. It takes a lot of 'moxie' to come on this forum and say what you did. We've all made mistakes and we've all done things we regret and would have done differently if given another chance. I never, ever pass judgement on things like that, UNLESS, well you know, the really bad crimes I mentioned earlier, not misjudgements, the fog of youth or just the stupid things we do as human beings. If that was the case, none of us would be teaching at all, lol. Jim, my old instructor was a hell raiser too but also settled down and it was the martial arts that did it for him. He'd be the first to say it. I hear ya, brother. The other question about Sijo Sonny Gascon's schedule. As soon as I get it I'll let you guys know, so far it's set for May. With respect, 'Brother Joe'


----------



## James Kovacich

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Thank you Jim. You are stand up guy but I've already told you that before. It takes a lot of 'moxie' to come on this forum and say what you did. We've all made mistakes and we've all done things we regret and would have done differently if given another chance. I never, ever pass judgement on things like that, UNLESS, well you know, the really bad crimes I mentioned earlier, not misjudgements, the fog of youth or just the stupid things we do as human beings. If that was the case, none of us would be teaching at all, lol. Jim, my old instructor was a hell raiser too but also settled down and it was the martial arts that did it for him. He'd be the first to say it. I hear ya, brother. The other question about Sijo Sonny Gascon's schedule. As soon as I get it I'll let you guys know, so far it's set for May. With respect, 'Brother Joe'



Thanx, Bro! You know considering how close "Brother John" is and the fact that he probably knows most of my old friends, it's more likely that I'll meet him first. But I really would like to meet you too!

My oldest daughter lives in Providence. Not sure how far away you are from there and I've haven't made it there yet but I am headed there sooner or later hopefully sooner.
Brother Jim :asian:


----------



## Karazenpo

akja said:
			
		

> Thanx, Bro! You know considering how close "Brother John" is and the fact that he probably knows most of my old friends, it's more likely that I'll meet him first. But I really would like to meet you too!
> 
> My oldest daughter lives in Providence. Not sure how far away you are from there and I've haven't made it there yet but I am headed there sooner or later hopefully sooner.
> Brother Jim :asian:



You're welcome, Bro! Providence is only about 35 minutes from my home, I have trained in that area over the years. Sounds good! Take care, Bro Joe


----------



## James Kovacich

Danjo said:
			
		

> Who was this Kajukenbo renegade?


http://www.crazydragonskajukenbo.com/PicsIn/Crazy_Dragons_Kajukenbo/images/2.jpg

He just got started a website. It will take some time I'm sure.


----------



## Danjo

Well, things don't sit still in the world of the youngest 10th degree in US history. Here's his latest from the new and revised Chapter 19: http://christophergeary.com/autobiography-19.php



*"In October 2004 I received my sixth-degree black belt in Tenshi Goju Kai from Hanshi Lou Angel. When I asked him what I would need to do to get promoted from sixth to seventh degree in his style, he told me I would need to start teaching his style to some of my students. I began teaching Tenshi Goju Kai to about 10 to 15 students in December of 2004.*
*After a year went by it became apparent that most of my students who were studying Hanshi Angel&#8217;s style were not impressed by it. As time went on, the number of students dropped steadily until only two remained in the program. During the winter of 2005 I asked Hanshi Angel, &#8220;How long do I need to be teaching Tenshi Goju Kai to get my seventh-degree black belt in your system?&#8221;, thinking to myself, &#8220;This isn&#8217;t going to last very long.&#8221; Hanshi Angel said that he wanted to see a couple of my students be promoted to black belt in his system.*
*In the spring of 2006 I called Hanshi Angel and explained that two of my students had almost finished their training and would be ready to test for black belt in his system in the summer. I asked him, &#8220;What will I need to do when we get to that point?&#8221; He told me that he wanted to wait a while longer to promote me to Seventh Dan in his system, because the people whom he had promoted to seventh degree and higher in his system had been training with him for a couple of decades. I was under the impression that some of these people may have been upset when he had promoted me to Sixth Dan because they thought he was promoting me too fast. To keep them from getting even more upset, in his NCMA newsletter he had told everyone that it had taken me a year to master his system, even though it had actually taken me about 90 days.*
*If Hanshi Angel had let me know from the beginning that he was planning to promote me to Seventh Dan after I had been teaching his system for a very long time, I could have accepted that fact. But he hadn&#8217;t given me any timetable of how long it would take, so all this time I had been teaching an art that I never wanted to teach and sending him the money for the promotions. I was starting to feel like I was being manipulated.*
*Shortly before this conversation took place, I had begun to make arrangements for Hanshi Angel to come to Omaha to do a seminar. I put information up on my website, and he put information on his website, but very few people were signing up. Hanshi Angel had done two previous seminars in Omaha, and I got the feeling that the people who had attended didn&#8217;t see any point in going to a third seminar.*
*When I talked with Hanshi Angel about the fact that not many people were signing up for the seminar, I suggested that maybe more people would be interested if he would make the seminar longer than two hours. Most presenters would have given more instruction in return for being paid $1000. I thought a longer seminar might make people feel like they would be getting more instruction for their money. Hanshi Angel got defensive, and he refused to teach for more than two hours and then said that he didn&#8217;t want to come anymore. To pay his fee plus meals, gas for his car, and hotel expenses if he decided to stay over in Omaha, I knew that I would need to have quite a few people pay a good amount of money to attend the seminar; however, having a good turnout didn&#8217;t seem likely. The bottom line was that my students had not been all that impressed with him, and that&#8217;s why they were not willing to pay the money.*
*Around the same time, the NCMA membership fee for regular members was raised from $25 to $30 per year. For that amount of money, people were getting a membership certificate and access to his online newsletter about twice a year. (Hanshi Angel would e-mail the school owners to let them know that the newsletter was up on his website so they could tell the NCMA members in their school to log on and read it.) He wouldn&#8217;t even print out a copy and mail it to the members. The fee for the NCMA&#8217;s school charter program also went up from $75 to $100 per year. If you had a school and you wanted to be in the NCMA and get promoted, it was apparent that you had to be part of the school charter program. In addition to paying $100, each school had to have at least 10 students signed up as NCMA members for $30 per year. I was able to get enough people to sign up, but I felt as though they were only doing it as a favor to me, not because they believed they were getting any benefits. I started feeling bad for these people, and that&#8217;s when I began to seriously question whether I wanted to stay in the NCMA. I knew that Hanshi Angel had done a lot for me by promoting me and serving as my advisor and instructor, but I didn&#8217; t want my students to be stuck paying for something that had no value to them. I sent my NCMA membership renewal to Hanshi Angel in June 2006, because my NCMA membership term lasted from July 1 to June 30. The only reason I did this was because I wanted the Tenshi students to test out for their black belts in Tenshi Goju Kai, which I planned for them to do in the first part of August 2006.*
*By July 2006 I was getting the distinct feeling that Hanshi Angel was stringing me along. It seemed like he was counting on the fact that I would stay in his organization and keep paying membership fees for many years so I could eventually get my seventh-degree black belt in his system and continue to be promoted in mine. In other words, he was planning to hold rank over my head year after year. When I first met Lou Angel I&#8217;d had so much respect for the man. I hated the thought that he was putting money ahead of everything else, similar to my experience with Nick Cerio&#8217;s organization.*


----------



## Gentle Fist

All this being said from a guy (Geary) that has never physically passed a Dan Rank test!!

Cerio failed him twice for Shodan, then on the third test he passed him based on his character and gave him a probationary shodan that expired in one calender year.  Geary never made it a year so he never got a shot to test for a REAL Shodan.

This guy is to much!!!  Master a system in 90 days... lmao!!!!


----------



## John Bishop

Made news in Omaha:
http://www.kptm.com/video/2098442.html?id=871


----------



## Gentle Fist

John Bishop said:


> Made news in Omaha:
> http://www.kptm.com/video/2098442.html?id=871


 

WOW!!! Even more proof that this guy is full of it!  He moves like a kyu rank.  And, what is up with his kiai and his cat stance after every tech?  Most masters that I have witnessed never kiai the same way twice.  You only see that with kyu ranks....


----------



## Kacey

John Bishop said:


> Made news in Omaha:
> http://www.kptm.com/video/2098442.html?id=871





fistlaw720 said:


> WOW!!! Even more proof that this guy is full of it!  He moves like a kyu rank.  And, what is up with his kiai and his cat stance after every tech?  Most masters that I have witnessed never kiai the same way twice.  You only see that with kyu ranks....



Um... yeah... sure... he moves like one of my students - who is a 12 year-old girl, about 80 pounds dripping wet, and a green belt (6th gup) - who knows every technique he demonstrated except the gun (because I don't give guns - even fake guns - to gup ranks) - and can use them against adults, without having to trip one attacker over the other to make him go down.


----------



## Ceicei

It also is poor form to criticize openly about other instructors (naming names), especially former ones.  Great way to sow sour grapes....


----------



## Danjo

fistlaw720 said:


> Master a system in 90 days... lmao!!!!


 
Well it's no wonder that his students wouldn't be impressed by someone like Lou Angel after seing Geary move. :lfao: 

I wonder if he "Mastered" it as well as he did SKK?


----------



## Carol

Kacey said:


> Um... yeah... sure... he moves like one of my students - who is a 12 year-old girl, about 80 pounds dripping wet, and a green belt (6th gup) - who knows every technique he demonstrated except the gun (because I don't give guns - even fake guns - to gup ranks) - and can use them against adults, without having to trip one attacker over the other to make him go down.


 
And somehow Kacey, I think your Gup knows you can't master a system in 90 days...just a hunch though :rofl:

Kacey's Gup vs. CNG in a match.

My money's on Kacey's student.


----------



## Danjo

Carol Kaur said:


> And somehow Kacey, I think your Gup knows you can't master a system in 90 days...just a hunch though :rofl:
> 
> Kacey's Gup vs. CNG in a match.
> 
> My money's on Kacey's student.


 
Damn. I can't even ask whether it's sparring or forms, because it wouldn't matter.


----------



## IWishToLearn

Heh. Unreal. Absolutely unreal.


----------



## The Kai

What is next for Mr geary?  a 13th degree??   Unskilled and ready to show it to the world.


----------



## Ceicei

Ceicei said:


> It also is poor form to criticize openly about other instructors (naming names), especially former ones. Great way to sow sour grapes....



This is just to clarify what I mean.  I was not referring to any of the posters here.  My comment was referring to Mr. Geary's article how he fully criticized his instructor for *not* promoting him.  True, his instructor kept taking the money, but if Mr. Geary's skill/attitude is not commensurate with his rank, then what more could be done?  You stay in training, you pay for your training.

All I can see from his video is that he is in love with his belts....

- Ceicei


----------



## Gentle Fist

Well seeing how Chow was a 15th dan, it will just be a mater of time before Geary finds someone to rank him 16th dan.  So he can make a whole new website dedicated about how great of a journey it was to pass Professor Chow.

In all seriousness, what style of Kenpo does he teach?  He doesn't have a branch in the Kenpo tree.  He has up to 4th kyu Shaolin material, some goju stuff, and then what?  What does he teach his dan ranks, if he doesn't have the real material?


----------



## Danjo

fistlaw720 said:


> Well seeing how Chow was a 15th dan, it will just be a mater of time before Geary finds someone to rank him 16th dan. So he can make a whole new website dedicated about how great of a journey it was to pass Professor Chow.
> 
> In all seriousness, what style of Kenpo does he teach? He doesn't have a branch in the Kenpo tree. He has up to 4th kyu Shaolin material, some goju stuff, and then what? What does he teach his dan ranks, if he doesn't have the real material?


 
Clearly, if he's a tenth degree, then he's beyond your petty mortal questions. And don't ever get the idea of taking him on either. Because if you strike him down, he'll become more powerful that you could ever imagine!:jediduel:


----------



## DavidCC

The Kai said:


> What is next for Mr geary?


 
We are all waiting to see what that will be...


----------



## James Kovacich

DavidCC said:


> We are all waiting to see what that will be...


Are you still his student?


----------



## Carol

DavidCC said:


> We are all waiting to see what that will be...


 



I saw CNG drinking a Piña Colada at Trader Vic's.




And his hair was perfect.


----------



## bill007

Danjo said:


> Clearly, if he's a tenth degree, then he's beyond your petty mortal questions. And don't ever get the idea of taking him on either. Because if you strike him down, he'll become more powerful that you could ever imagine!:jediduel:


 
Danjo, do you know by any chance what is Midichlorian count is?? :rofl:


----------



## DavidCC

akja said:


> Are you still his student?


 

I've never been a student at CNG's school specifically, but I do still train under Shawn Steiner and we are still part of the CNG organization.


----------



## Danjo

bill007 said:


> Danjo, do you know by any chance what is Midichlorian count is?? :rofl:


 
The Farce is strong with that one.:jedi1:


----------



## Carol

Hey everyone!​ 
Look at how many gold reputation pips I have!!​ 
It's official!!​ 
I'm a now a "10th" too !!!!!!!​ 
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:​


----------



## The Kai

Do you have enough patchs on your Gi to be a 10th degree??


----------



## Carol

The Kai said:


> Do you have enough patchs on your Gi to be a 10th degree??


 

Probably not.  I wear a plain gi.


----------



## IWishToLearn

Carol Kaur said:


> Probably not.  I wear a plain gi.



LOL!


----------



## dianhsuhe

Prophetic words from Super Duper GGM Geary:

_Some people may wonder why someone would be promoted from seventh-degree to tenth-degree rather than from seventh to eighth to ninth and finally to tenth. Dr. Nesbitt said, I promoted Christopher from Seventh to Tenth Dan because he has done something that most men at his level havent done. I know that he can run his own system, because hes been doing it for many years. It appears to me that his goals are high, and he has a great love for his students. He is a man of integrity and sound character. When you have a man like that, you want to give him the best that you can give him so that he can be the best and provide for his students the best way. If I had only given him Eighth Dan, theres not really much difference from Seventh Dan. If you are below the rank of Tenth Dan, theres always somebody who is looking to have authority over yousomebody who thinks that your students should pay them money instead of you. I didnt want that. I wanted Christopher to have the freedom to do anything he wanted to do in his system. He has worked so hard he shouldnt have to be taking the money from his students and giving it to someone else, because hes doing all the work._

He started his next paragraph talking about when he went to an art gallery to get his 10th cert. framed but I just couldn't continue...

It really is sad- I lose my internet for a month or so and Geary becomes a 10th, I would be ashamed to be a part of his org. even under a different teacher. 

Heck it seemed like every Geary thread was locked last time I was here--- I started a "geary is soo tough that _____." thread (like the Chuck Norris one) but it got nixed!  

Simply freakin' amazing!


----------



## Shaolin_Samurai

I haven't read that interview, but I agree with that guy, I also prefer Kenpo to TKD. Training Kenpo Kai in my case, I realized that having so many different things to learn, we didn't have enough time to train kicks properly, at least training twice a week. So, I was doing TKD for a year to improve my kicks, but I soon realized that I didn't certain things from TKD, as for example the fact that you cannot block your opponent's attacks when fighting. So, the kicks are fine, but I realized that I have almost the same kicks in Kenpo Kai.


----------



## Kacey

Shaolin_Samurai said:


> I haven't read that interview, but I agree with that guy, I also prefer Kenpo to TKD. Training Kenpo Kai in my case, I realized that having so many different things to learn, we didn't have enough time to train kicks properly, at least training twice a week. So, I was doing TKD for a year to improve my kicks, but I soon realized that I didn't certain things from TKD, as for example the fact that you cannot block your opponent's attacks when fighting. So, the kicks are fine, but I realized that I have almost the same kicks in Kenpo Kai.


Um.... I don't know who you trained with, but *of course* you can block your opponent's attacks while fighting... I'd be interested in knowing why you think that's not so, as in 19 years in TKD I've never heard it.


----------



## IWishToLearn

Heh.

Fo sho!

Kenpo > TKD.


----------



## Danjo

Looks like 10th degree Chris Geary has had his rank taken from him once again. I'm sure he'll find more somewhere: http://www.imamf.com/


----------



## IWishToLearn

Ouch.


----------



## Carol

So much for being the youngest American Judan in history.


----------



## Danjo

Carol Kaur said:


> So much for being the youngest American Judan in history.


 
Well, now he's the youngest American to be stripped of his judan ranking.--sigh-- I'm just waiting for the updated autobiography.


----------



## Guan-gi

Danjo, the auto is updated.  Maybe you can tell if he is still a 10th dan because he promoted himself (which he states he would never do) or because he couldn't possibly REALLY be stripped of rank which so many have said he deserves.  I think I need a translator.


----------



## Gentle Fist

Danjo said:


> Well, now he's the youngest American to be stripped of his judan ranking.--sigh-- I'm just waiting for the updated autobiography.


 

Man this guy sets so many records!!!  Let me see if I have this right....

9th kyu to 5th kyu - earned in USSD

5th kyu to 1st kyu - never earned or just skipped

1st dan - after failing two shodan tests, Prof Nick Cerio awards geary a honorary shodan in american kenpo - which is later stripped due to geary's character

2nd dan to 4th dan - skipped

5th dan and 6th dan - awarded by Hanshi Angel, in a system that was not Angel's expertise

6th dan - given by a master in Hawaii (forget his name) - later it is decided it was a mistake, not sure if if was stripped

6th dan - recognized by karezenpo go shin jitsu black belt society - which is later stripped due to geary's character

7th dan - awarded by Hanshi Angel, in a system that was not Angel's expertise

8th and 9th dan - skipped

10th dan - awarded by Dr. Keith Nesbitt - which is then stripped due to geary's character

He has had three dan ranks stripped from him, two of which were from two of the biggest names in the history of kenpo!!!

I bet very few will be able to top geary in what he has accomplished, nor would anyone want to!!!


----------



## John Bishop

"Regardless of what Dr. Nesbitt says, its not possible to rewrite history. I was promoted to Tenth Dan, and I still am a Tenth Dan (as others have affirmed to me time and time again after reading this chapter)."
Christopher Geary:  http://christophergeary.com/autobiography-19.php

All the organizations that promoted him are trying to un-ring the bell.  Here's a novel idea, how about doing your background checks before you promote someone?


----------



## The Kai

I think his next certificate will come with cartoon characters on it


----------



## Carol

John Bishop said:


> All the organizations that promoted him are trying to un-ring the bell. Here's a novel idea, how about doing your background checks before you promote someone?


 
Not a bad idea, but I'd rather see it go one step further.

How about only promoting someone that trains live under you?


----------



## Kacey

Carol Kaur said:


> Not a bad idea, but I'd rather see it go one step further.
> 
> How about only promoting someone that trains live under you?



Now you're just demonstrating integrity... how dare you?!?!?!?!?!  :shock:


----------



## Pacificshore

Given all that has happened to him with regards to his quest for high rank, he should have just stitched up his own belt with as many red or gold stripes and save his own monies from all these organizations


----------



## DavidCC

fistlaw720 said:


> Man this guy sets so many records!!! Let me see if I have this right....
> 
> 9th kyu to 5th kyu - earned in USSD
> 
> 5th kyu to 1st kyu - never earned or just skipped
> 
> 1st dan - after failing two shodan tests, Prof Nick Cerio awards geary a honorary shodan in american kenpo - which is later stripped due to geary's character
> 
> 2nd dan to 4th dan - skipped
> 
> 5th dan and 6th dan - awarded by Hanshi Angel, in a system that was not Angel's expertise
> 
> 6th dan - given by a master in Hawaii (forget his name) - later it is decided it was a mistake, not sure if if was stripped
> 
> 6th dan - recognized by karezenpo go shin jitsu black belt society - which is later stripped due to geary's character
> 
> 7th dan - awarded by Hanshi Angel, in a system that was not Angel's expertise
> 
> 8th and 9th dan - skipped
> 
> 10th dan - awarded by Dr. Keith Nesbitt - which is then stripped due to geary's character
> 
> He has had three dan ranks stripped from him, two of which were from two of the biggest names in the history of kenpo!!!
> 
> I bet very few will be able to top geary in what he has accomplished, nor would anyone want to!!!


 
You have a number of these "facts" wrong.  For example, Lou Angel did at one time promote CNG to 3rd.  And it was the Hawaiian Martial Arts International Society which gave him his 7th and "Professor" title,I don't know that they ever revoked any of that.  That was John Pagdilao and Jamie Abregana.  C'mon, isn't it easy enough to take shots at him using the facts?  No Need to make stuff up...


----------



## DavidCC

Carol Kaur said:


> Not a bad idea, but I'd rather see it go one step further.
> 
> How about only promoting someone that trains live under you?


 
how many people over, say, 5th degree, can say they live up to this standard in any art?  In the kaju/kara/ken/zen/bo/po branch of this tree, I think they are a minority.


----------



## DavidCC

Pacificshore said:


> Given all that has happened to him with regards to his quest for high rank, he should have just stitched up his own belt with as many red or gold stripes and save his own monies from all these organizations


 
The thing is, CNG could have declared himself to be any rank he wanted a long time ago a'la Fred Villari etc.  but he views self-promotion as illegitimate.  Somebody once posted  that they thought bumping yourself from 2nd to 10th was more legitimate than what Prof. Geary has done LOL to each his own!

Maybe you don't like the way he got his rank but the fact is, he asked "what do I have to do" and when they told him what to do he did it.  I would think that the leaders of systems who hand out high ranks without ever meeting a person face to face or even watching a video should be taking more heat than the person who recevied the rank.   For example, Lou Angel was ready to award a 5th, 6th, 7th dan in his Goju style because CNG learned a few forms from Angel's video series. Why would they do that?  What good does it do an organization to add a couple hundred members in a state where they previously had no representation?  I have some ideas "what good" but I will let you draw your own conclusions.


----------



## dianhsuhe

David-  You cannot justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior...

Defending Geary's martial arts reputation is silly, drink some more cool-aid. 

One of the first things I learned in MA was that you DO NOT ASK TO BE PROMOTED.  How about now?  How about now?  LOL

This whole thing is such a joke-


----------



## DavidCC

dianhsuhe said:


> David- You cannot justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior...
> 
> Defending Geary's martial arts reputation is silly, drink some more cool-aid.
> 
> One of the first things I learned in MA was that you DO NOT ASK TO BE PROMOTED. How about now? How about now? LOL
> 
> This whole thing is such a joke-


 
There is a difference between "Can I have my next belt now" and "what are the requirements for my next belt".

Not sure how I am "defending his reputation".  Do you think that self-promotion is better than what CNG did?

What bad behavior am I justifying, and what other bad behavior am I using to do so?  I don't follow you?  

Do they make a kool-aid that helps with reading comprehension? get some.   if you are going to start taking cheap-shots at me, then I will just let you all go back to your silly insults and clowning around and put this thread back on "ignore".


----------



## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> There is a difference between "Can I have my next belt now" and "what are the requirements for my next belt".


 
True. He went by the organization rules wherever he went. But then he went further and started bugging for even more rank. It's a bit disingenuous to say that someone that keeps pestering for what they need to do for the next rank so soon after they recieved the last one isn't doing something unusual.



DavidCC said:


> Not sure how I am "defending his reputation". Do you think that self-promotion is better than what CNG did?


 
Your very quote shows you to be defending his reputation by saying what he did was better than someone else.



DavidCC said:


> What bad behavior am I justifying, and what other bad behavior am I using to do so? I don't follow you?


 
The bad behavior of people handing out rank without verifying his ability first. 

They regretted it and tried to say "Ooops." Oh well. Hopefully fewer and fewer people will be willing to hand rank out that way.

The thing with Geary that makes him a bit different than others who have obtained rank through dubious means is that he goes on his "Portrait of a Martial Arts Master" autobiography and brags about it loud and long for all to read. Most martial artists that get rank from those type of places know that it's nothing to brag about. If he had done like most that go that route and just kept it quiet, no one would have cared (or at least very few would have). 

David, if you like what you're doing and where you're training, then good. You seem to be one of those that is willing to go out and get decent training from other sources and incorporate it into what you're getting. I hope you continue to do so and expand your horizons after your current contract is up.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Cool-Aid for reading comprehension?  I dunno... maybe I was just delirious after reading all the CNG stuff.  

I apologize if I offended your Senior Grand-Master CNG...I sincerily hope that he is able to mail-order a 10th dan from someone else, anyone really, and have it stick!  That'd be great...

The guy is a car-wreck...

EDIT:  Why isn't this thread in the "Horror Stories" section???


----------



## IWishToLearn

dianhsuhe said:


> Cool-Aid for reading comprehension?  I dunno... maybe I was just delirious after reading all the CNG stuff.
> 
> I apologize if I offended your Senior Grand-Master CNG...I sincerily hope that he is able to mail-order a 10th dan from someone else, anyone really, and have it stick!  That'd be great...
> 
> The guy is a car-wreck...
> 
> EDIT:  Why isn't this thread in the "Horror Stories" section???


Good question.


----------



## The Kai

*Hopefully fewer and fewer people will be willing to hand rank out that way.*

*The thing with Geary that makes him a bit different than others who have obtained rank through dubious means is that he goes on his "Portrait of a Martial Arts Master" autobiography and brags about it loud and long for all to read.* *Most martial artists that get rank from those type of places know that it's nothing to brag about*. If he had done like most that go that route and just kept it quiet, no one would have cared (or at least very few would have). 


I think Danjo hit the nail on the head


----------



## MJS

Thread moved to Horror Stories.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod


----------



## Cirdan

Danjo said:


> *"In October 2004 I received my sixth-degree black belt in Tenshi Goju Kai from Hanshi Lou Angel. When I asked him what I would need to do to get promoted from sixth to seventh degree in his style, he told me I would need to start teaching his style to some of my students. I began teaching Tenshi Goju Kai to about 10 to 15 students in December of 2004.*
> *After a year went by it became apparent that most of my students who were studying Hanshi Angels style were not impressed by it. As time went on, the number of students dropped steadily until only two remained in the program. During the winter of 2005 I asked Hanshi Angel, How long do I need to be teaching Tenshi Goju Kai to get my seventh-degree black belt in your system?, thinking to myself, This isnt going to last very long. Hanshi Angel said that he wanted to see a couple of my students be promoted to black belt in his system.*
> *In the spring of 2006 I called Hanshi Angel and explained that two of my students had almost finished their training and would be ready to test for black belt in his system in the summer. I asked him, What will I need to do when we get to that point? He told me that he wanted to wait a while longer to promote me to Seventh Dan in his system, because the people whom he had promoted to seventh degree and higher in his system had been training with him for a couple of decades. I was under the impression that some of these people may have been upset when he had promoted me to Sixth Dan because they thought he was promoting me too fast. To keep them from getting even more upset, in his NCMA newsletter he had told everyone that it had taken me a year to master his system, even though it had actually taken me about 90 days.*
> *If Hanshi Angel had let me know from the beginning that he was planning to promote me to Seventh Dan after I had been teaching his system for a very long time, I could have accepted that fact. But he hadnt given me any timetable of how long it would take, so all this time I had been teaching an art that I never wanted to teach and sending him the money for the promotions. I was starting to feel like I was being manipulated.*


etc..

Someone pass me the barf bag. This guy obviously view dan grades with the mentality of a crying seven year old asking his mom for another candy bar. Disgusting! :barf:


----------



## IWishToLearn

Interesting analogy.


----------

