# push ups vs the bench press



## muayThaiPerson (Dec 26, 2002)

ive been ttrying to notice the difference in th epushup an dthe bench press for a while now. push ups are said to work out the triceps while bench press works out the pects. i remembered when i started benching that i felt it in my triceps. when i told the instructor, he said the benchpress does work the triceps and works the chest if you bring it all the way down. 

i dont see the difference in movements between the two. so i just want to ask if push ups(going all the way down) is  equal to bench pressing. 

bench pressing to me isnt all that safe, because your muscles might be able to handle the weight but the weight might be to much stress for the back


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## chufeng (Dec 26, 2002)

You are right in thinking that the bench press and push-up works similar muscle groups...

However, the bench press allows for increased resistance and, when done correctly, does isolate the muscles of the upper trunk (primarily the triceps and pectoralis muscles but also the deltoids, trapezius muscles to a lesser extent). The bench press should NOT affect your back unless you're doing the press wrong and/or you've overloaded the bar.

The push up limits your resistance to about 60% of your own body weight...but, it provides for a more balanced exercise because the muscles of the lower back, gluteus, and legs are also brought into play to hold the body in the proper allignment.
Both exercises can cause injury or yield poor results if done incorrectly.

:asian:
chufeng


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 26, 2002)

Look at your hand positioning during the bench press. There's close grip, shoulder width, and wide grip. Each in it's own right works the muscles differently. Close - works tri's more. Shoulder width does both with more emphasis on the chest. Wide grip works more chest than tri's. On my tricep day I use close grip bench presses only. On chest day I use hands in line with shoulder width apart also on that day I decline, incline, and flat bench press. This really trashes the pec. muscle from all angles. When practicing push ups does the same put your feet on something and get different angles to work the muscles in variuos ways.


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## muayThaiPerson (Dec 26, 2002)

so wahts being said is that push ups does work out the pecs, just at a lesser degree than tthe bench. correct?


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 26, 2002)

That's my take but maybe try varying the hand position width. Maybe try a little farther apart but definately try to put your feet on various heigt things.


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## KennethKu (Dec 26, 2002)

You should use both bench press and pushup.

Pushup alone, will plateau very fast (you are limited to pushing a % of your bodyweight).  But you can use plyometric pushup to continue improving explosive strength.

Research shows that by combining bodybuilding routines and plyometric workouts, you achieve the best gains in performance.


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## TLH3rdDan (Dec 26, 2002)

yes you are correct in thinking that the push up and the bench press work the same muscle groups... however you are not limited as much as you think with a push up... you can elevate your feet to increase resistance the higher your feet the more of your body weight is transfered to your shoulders chest and arms... you can do diamond push ups which will work your triceps and biceps more... and iron crosses will work your shoulders and chest more... there are many different variations... check out this web site it has alot of good information http://www.exrx.net/Exercise.html


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## white belt (Dec 30, 2002)

Pushups are as good as weights for MA conditioning, in my experience.  A weighted vest can travel with you on vacation for pushups and other excercises.  Want power, range of motion and shoulder girdle flexibility FROM a pushup?  Try the following.  Get 3 chairs.  Choose a floor that will not allow the chairs to slip or slide.  Put one where the feet go.  Put the other two just outside of your shoulders.  Place your hands on the chairs seats with the fingers pointing AWAY from your body to each side.  The hands are in this position to allow the wrist joint to act as a proper hinge and not limit your range of motion.  Now put your feet on the seat of the third chair.  Lower yourself until your nose touches the floor and come up to your beginning position.  I have been accused of being the devil, by some of my more macho fitness club buddys, just for this one excercise.  Especially the day AFTER.  If you can't do 50 regular pushups, DON'T try it yet.  Torn pecs, etc. could result if this excercise is not practiced carefully by even an experienced athlete.  A weighted vest won't be needed, trust me.  At my peak bench press condition, I was pressing twice my bodyweight and I could not rep out more than 22 of the elevated chair pushups.  But then again, not everyone will be limited with my results.  2-3 weeks of these, 2-3 times a week,  and you will start feeling absolute control over every fibre in your pecs at a very full range of motion.  If you are already fairly lean, you will develop striations (cuts) in your pecs at a new level too.  Weights are fine, but these are pretty darn good too!

Safe training to you,
white belt

p.s.
Your shoulders, triceps, biceps and more will also be possibly challenged by this.


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## Zujitsuka (Dec 30, 2002)

As someone mentioned earlier, yoy can try different type of push-ups like handstand push-ups and reverse push-ups.  Also, you can add resistance by using resistance bands like Lifeline USA's 'Power Push-up 2'.

Here is their site, http://www.lifeline-usa.com

Peace & blessings,


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## MartialArtist (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *ive been ttrying to notice the difference in th epushup an dthe bench press for a while now. push ups are said to work out the triceps while bench press works out the pects. i remembered when i started benching that i felt it in my triceps. when i told the instructor, he said the benchpress does work the triceps and works the chest if you bring it all the way down.
> 
> i dont see the difference in movements between the two. so i just want to ask if push ups(going all the way down) is  equal to bench pressing.
> ...


There are many ways to do the bench-press.

NO, BENCH PRESS IS NOT MOSTLY PECS!  Your pecs play a role, but your triceps, delts, and your LATS play a MUCH BIGGER ROLE!!!  You can't do chest flies and expect to up your bench.  Most programs to increase your bench are mainly composed of exercises that train the triceps, delts, and back.

But, wider grips take a lot of the stress off the triceps and a little more to the pecs while the close-grip benchpress puts more stress on the triceps.

Bench beats push-ups for strength, but with push-ups, you can train for explosiveness (plyometric push-ups) a little more safely.

Also, try using dumbells for your bench.  It helps with your stabilizers and makes your stronger and bigger.


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## MartialArtist (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *You should use both bench press and pushup.
> 
> Pushup alone, will plateau very fast (you are limited to pushing a % of your bodyweight).  But you can use plyometric pushup to continue improving explosive strength.
> ...


Exactly right, but for MA, I would suggest powerlifting and Olympic lifting routines because you get strength and speed-strength more so than bodybuilding which is basically for anesthetics (mass, cuts, etc.) with not as much strength or explosiveness gained as p-lifting and o-lifting


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## Nyoongar (Dec 30, 2002)

The fittest and strongest I've ever felt was from doing body weight exercises like dips, chin/pull ups, pushups and squats, crunches etc.


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## KennethKu (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Exactly right, but for MA, I would suggest powerlifting and Olympic lifting routines because you get strength and speed-strength more so than bodybuilding which is basically for anesthetics (mass, cuts, etc.) with not as much strength or explosiveness gained as p-lifting and o-lifting *



 Good points indeed!


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## Cain (Dec 31, 2002)

I am no expert here but I feel that the obvious difference between the two is that u can increase the weight in a bench press....

|Cain|


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## MountainSage (Dec 31, 2002)

Strength is not what MA are trying to build, it's force.  Physics 101 is force equals speed X mass X distance( I think that correct equation).  The ability to move a mass (fist, leg,etc) quickly over a distance creates force. Lifting strength is minor, but show muscles do look impressive.  MA also need endurance both aerobic and anaerobic.  My point being that high rep body weight exercises are far more effective than any weight program.  Most former Soviet block athletes never lifted a singles weight, but did insane numbers of body weight exercises.  Only Power lifters used weights.  The body must function as a unit, not isolated parts, so train the body as a unit. Check out Matt furey.com; I've used his training logic for several months now and there is a huge jump in conditioning and strength.

Mountain Sage
:soapbox:


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## Zujitsuka (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *Strength is not what MA are trying to build, it's force.  Physics 101 is force equals speed X mass X distance( I think that correct equation).  The ability to move a mass (fist, leg,etc) quickly over a distance creates force. Lifting strength is minor, but show muscles do look impressive.  MA also need endurance both aerobic and anaerobic.  My point being that high rep body weight exercises are far more effective than any weight program.  Most former Soviet block athletes never lifted a singles weight, but did insane numbers of body weight exercises.  Only Power lifters used weights.  The body must function as a unit, not isolated parts, so train the body as a unit. Check out Matt furey.com; I've used his training logic for several months now and there is a huge jump in conditioning and strength.
> 
> Mountain Sage
> :soapbox: *



I too am a big fan of bodyweight routines, but weight training is definitely beneficial - when you're doing the right kind of weight training.  Check out what an acclaimed expert Coach Staley has to say about weight training for martial artists and combat athletes by clicking on this link,

http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/ma_articles.html

By the way, MartialArtist, you had some great points.  Thanks for sharing.

All the best to you all in 2003.


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## MartialArtist (Dec 31, 2002)

I would suggest a bodybuilding lifting routine for people who are at like 6' and weigh less than 120 pounds.  You should at least have SOME muscle mass on you, not just skin and bones.

But you don't want to become too big, that's not your goal.  It might be some people's goals, and that's all right.  But your goal is to become better at MA and self-defense, not winning the Olympia title.


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## MartialArtist (Dec 31, 2002)

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=40 - Good article on telling the different types of strength such as speed-strength there are

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=8 - Olympic Lifting

Now, it says that the Olympic lifters beat the world class sprinters.  That was 1964, before improved training regimes for sprinters because they didn't know what a weight was, or what plyometrics really were

The kinds of lifts like the snatch won't make you punch 4 more times in a second, but it will help with your overall explosiveness.


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## JDenz (Dec 31, 2002)

weight training is good.  The bigger and stronger you are the better you will do in a real life situation.  I mean look at Bob Sapp.  He kicks big Time *** lol and he is nothing but muscle.


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## muayThaiPerson (Dec 31, 2002)

O-Lifting and P-lifting build to much mass. Wat is important is the amount weight gained in the certain region, because as someone posted earlier, its not just strenght, its a combo of speed. momenturm is speed times the weight.


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## KennethKu (Jan 1, 2003)

At the moment of impact, momemtum= mass * terminal velocity.    Looking at that, you need both mass and strenght (which generates velocity).


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## JDenz (Jan 1, 2003)

Glad we have a few people skilled in math around here


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## MountainSage (Jan 1, 2003)

JDenz,
For my part in the mathematics I do not take credit.  There is a website, TaekwondoTutor.com, the site reviews the physics behind many of the principle of the MA.  I personally was a staight grade D student in math and never studied physics.

MountainSage


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## KenpoGirl (Jan 1, 2003)

Hey guys.  Question for you.

Push ups from the knees.  I can do 30 of these without a lot of effort but can only manage 10 to 12 regular or "full" push-ups

Is it cheating to only do half push-ups?  I was told my a friend that half push-up concentrate on the upper body more and full push-ups work on the back and other parts.  

Is it "cheating" to only do half push-ups?  Am I robbing myself?
I do vary the hand positions {regulars, wide, tricept , and hands positioned close to the ribs}

Dot :asian:

P.S.  if you've already discussed this I appologise, I haven't read through the whole thread as yet.


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## Jill666 (Jan 1, 2003)

Full push-ups also work the back, gleuts since you are keeping you body aligned. As with any exercise it is best to not sacrifice form. If you are doing 12 full push-ups now ( for example) and keep it up, you will be able to bang out 20, the 30, then sets of twenty-five. It just takes time. Maybe your shoulders are quite strong, but your forearms or small muscles elsewhere need work (as was the case for me). Keeping to the full push ups will develop these areas. My instructor wouldn't allow push-ups from the knees from day one, saying "do as many as you can". 

Then you can cross your ankles, put your feet up, do triangles, and show off generally  

I also do bench presses, & use free weights. Being half the size of the guys I train with, I generall lift half of whatever they lift, and do the same routines. (Being the only woman in the class, I don't know what is "normal" for my size) Except I do a lot more sit-ups, crunches and lunges. I'm in my mid-thirties so certain areas need extra attention. *sigh*


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## KennethKu (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *Hey guys.  Question for you.
> 
> Push ups from the knees.  I can do 30 of these without a lot of effort but can only manage 10 to 12 regular or "full" push-ups
> ...



Just add 1 more push up in the next training and you will increase the number steadily.


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## JDenz (Jan 1, 2003)

Yes knee pushups should definitly be dropped.  All the advice you have been given is good.  Everything should always be done with good form for maxium effect.    MountainSage I work in a machine shop and deal with numbers and formula's all day long it isn't that hard I only had B's in school and it was more hard work then natural talent.


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## Astra (Jan 2, 2003)

What I found to be a good excercise if you're tired of "plain old pushups" is to find a smooth wall, stand on your arms and keep your feet against the wall so it balances a bit for you. Then let your nose touch the ground and push yourself completely up again. It requires balance, very good triceps and it works well all-around. Depending on the angle, you will lift a different amount of weight. For those are fit and have perfect balance, they can attempt it without the wall. Though pulling this excercise off so it has conciderable impact requires you to be really fit - I was able to do over 50 normal pushups in a minute before I was able to do one of these perfectly.


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## KennethKu (Jan 2, 2003)

That is Military Press but using your own body weight. Again, you are limited by your body weight and will plateau quickly.


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## JDenz (Jan 2, 2003)

Yes.  All and all any body exercise can be one better with weights.  I do use body weigt exercises in my training usally as a burn out when I finish lifting that body part.  ie. push up for chest,  dips for tris etc.


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## Astra (Jan 2, 2003)

I wouldn't agree to that, but to some extent you're right. As a result of doing those, you develop "more packed" ( I don't know the right term in english) muscles, instead of huge ones. And to increase work done, you can do them faster. Thus gaining SPEED in your movements, not potential force. Depends on what you want though. If you want more explosive power, do fast props with light weights. If you want more muscle mass, do slow props with heavy weights. The plus side to using your own body is you only need a floor and some solid objects and don't need to invest into anything. And, if you want, you can always attach something heavier onto you while doing them.


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## white belt (Jan 2, 2003)

Humor me.  If you want to reach a new level of control over your upper body's explosive capabilities.  The elevated (benchs or chairs) pushups, described in my earlier post, will give you quality development instead of useless bulk.  If your body weight seems not enough to you,  I suggest you try JUST 10 reps, then get back to me and let me know if they are too easy.    

white belt


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## yin_yang75 (Jan 2, 2003)

I personally like the ? Shaolin Push up ? (not sure of the name)

I had seen it before but started doing it different after watching a Matt Furey video. Your butt is up in the air and you swoop your face along the floor and then push your body up. At this point you are looking at the ceiling and your back is arched (like the yoga position sphinx). Then you bend at the waist shoot your butt up in the air and rock back on your hells and start over.

These are great and I notice a difference. They work a lot of other muscle groups and I mix them in with regular military pushups. You are supposed to do these fast to aviod lactic acid build up, it should be fast enough to be aerobic.  I start slow because my sholder pops if my hands aren't in the right position. Too many arm bars. 

I do use weights a little, but perfer exercises that make me lift my own weight. I am my own portable gym.


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## JDenz (Jan 2, 2003)

You guys may know martial arts but you seem kinda clueless about bodybuilding.   Light weight with alot of reps will build mass just like lifting heavy weights will.  In fact talk to a pro wrestler sometime those huge guys usally lift about the same amount of weight that I do at the gym.  In fact when I am bulking up I usally go to 10 sets of ten reps with a 45 second break between them.   I only lift heavy maybe once or twice a month just to see what my max strength is.  Lifting a weight so heavy that you can only lift it once is not the best way to develop strength or mass.


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## white belt (Jan 3, 2003)

400 LB. bench press w/dead weight at a body weight of 195 lbs.  If I weren't cluless, I mighta been A CONTENDERRRR!!!   Oh, the humanity!    

Lot of reps?!...  LOT OF REPS!?...   Mr. Denz can you do a lot of the HINDU PUSHUPS that Yin Yang 75 described?   Can you do just 15 consecutive of the CHAIR PUSHUPS I described? 

If those are that easy for you to fall under the high rep category, then you KICK ***!!!  You would squeeze me like a pimple on the mat.  Share some details of your methods sir!

I was at a Judo tournament some years ago and started talking to a rather tough looking, but nice fellow, in street clothes waiting for my next match.  We hit it off and he took me aside and totally transformed my favorite throw on the spot!  Little did I know when chatting that I was speaking to a 3x national Judo champion and former Olympic coach.  I am kind of lucky that way.  Any tips you have sir, please fire away!

white belt

p.s.
How many chair pushups can you really do?


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## Astra (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *You guys may know martial arts but you seem kinda clueless about bodybuilding.   Light weight with alot of reps will build mass just like lifting heavy weights will.  In fact talk to a pro wrestler sometime those huge guys usally lift about the same amount of weight that I do at the gym.  In fact when I am bulking up I usally go to 10 sets of ten reps with a 45 second break between them.   I only lift heavy maybe once or twice a month just to see what my max strength is.  Lifting a weight so heavy that you can only lift it once is not the best way to develop strength or mass. *



You talk to a pro wrestler, I talk to a few pro-bodybuilders. Go figure. Developing "bulk" or beeing huge BTW, is not only limited to the excercises you do. It's much more dependant to your protein intake, and it all tends to vary from person to person. Fact.


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## white belt (Jan 3, 2003)

That amount of protein / nutrition thing is very accurate!  I agree from experience.  Good point!  My pals Hanz and Franz say be careful or you might have a FLABALANCHE! 

white belt


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## KennethKu (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> Humor me.  If you want to reach a new level of control over your upper body's explosive capabilities.  The elevated (benchs or chairs) pushups, described in my earlier post, will give you quality development instead of useless bulk.  If your body weight seems not enough to you,  I suggest you try JUST 10 reps, then get back to me and let me know if they are too easy.
> 
> white belt



Not everyone is 250lb  

But seriously, it is more effective if you train with progressive weights.  While during a training session, using pyramiding load enlists different muscles to be trained.   It is hard to do that if you are only limited to your own body weight (or a % of it).  Not that it is useless, rather it is not as best as you can get out of your training.  Heck, the USNAVY SEALs use Pushups, Pullups and Situps (plus DIPs in the second phase) primarily.  And it works for them.


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## white belt (Jan 3, 2003)

So Ken, you accusing me of a FLABALANCHE!!!   Listen to me now and hear me later.  Chairs kind of heavy?   Well, how many can you really do? 

white belt

p.s.
I weigh 170....and I am 4 ft. tall.  I hang up groin protectors to practice my jump kicks.  Look like a midget playing the xylaphone with his feet, when I hang up more than four in a row.


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## JDenz (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes definitly protein and calorie intake are as important as what you eat as is making sure you get more calories then you burn vitiamins, proper supplementation.   The Navy Seals do that but the avarge navey seal is in the 180-210 pound range as well and are cut looking not big and bulked.


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## fissure (Jan 4, 2003)

All of this is pointless. If there was some hard and fast rule for gaining strength or muscle size, then there wouldn't bee thousands of frustrated gym members out there.
Someone said that powerlifting and Olympic lifting add too much size! If any of you really lift weights or have ever been to a gym, then you know that for MOST people gaining lean muscle tissue is a *****.
Personally, body weight movements did little for me. High rep bodybuilding type training got me nowhere. The only time I gained muscle and strength was on a low rep powerlifting regime ( the kind someone else said can't be used to build strenght).However, I have friends who got nowhere on my routine and flourished on the kind that did nothing to me. Guess what? Everyone is different!


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## Pyros (Jan 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *ive been ttrying to notice the difference in th epushup an dthe bench press for a while now. push ups are said to work out the triceps while bench press works out the pects. *



It all depends on your technique, you can turn your hands in pushups for different angles but even with Bench Press you can vary the width of your hands.

I always got better results with Dips than either of the two. In dips you move your whole body in air, which gets a lot higher stress release output from your nervous systems than lying on your back or supporting with feet (pushups). I always prefer stuff where you have to have 3 dimensional control of your whole body, but that's just my preference. Also, a dip sation is easier to handle in my apartment than a bench would.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> *
> Personally, body weight movements did little for me. High rep bodybuilding type training got me nowhere. The only time I gained muscle and strength was on a low rep powerlifting regime ( the kind someone else said can't be used to build strenght).However, I have friends who got nowhere on my routine and flourished on the kind that did nothing to me. Guess what? Everyone is different! *



I understand where you are coming from.
Up until the time I was about 25 tears old I was lean..about 6% body fat and had the normal amount of muscle for someone my height. 
I wanted bulk up so someone suggested I do 3~4 sets of 8 reps.
I did this for years and my gains were minimal.
A few years back I met a body builder here in Japan that was a good friend of Arnie.
He recommended I do 5 sets of 10 then 8 then 6 then 4 then 2 reps starting at 60% of my max and then work up from there, then if I felt like it do drop sets going back down from 2~4~6~8~10 reps. 
The first month I blew by the max that I had struggled at for years. I gained about 15 .lbs of  muscle as well. 
Some peoples body make up work well with this type of workout.you just have to tweak your own workout to make it work for you.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *O-Lifting and P-lifting build to much mass. Wat is important is the amount weight gained in the certain region, because as someone posted earlier, its not just strenght, its a combo of speed. momenturm is speed times the weight. *


What are you talking about?

P-lifting and O-lifting aren't for mass, but for strength.  BODYBUILDING IS FOR MASS.  THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT SCIENCES!

In powerlifting, you don't get a pump so no, it won't grow as much as if you did higher reps and lower sets.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *weight training is good.  The bigger and stronger you are the better you will do in a real life situation.  I mean look at Bob Sapp.  He kicks big Time *** lol and he is nothing but muscle. *


However, with gaining too much mass, you have a serious risk of getting slower.

But for people who are slow already and don't have speed to their attribute but lots of force, then yeah, it's great to be bigger.  But, the quicker and smarter opponent wins.  That's a quote from Ken Shamrock talking trash on Tank Abbot, lol.  I'm not a supporter of the UFC either, but it's true.  Of course, a 100 pound wrestler won't be able to do a double-leg lift on a heavyweight, but there are other things he can do like low-level finishes where he attacks the ankle or the knee to bring him down.

But stretching minimizes loses in speed and agility and when done correctly, can maximize your speed-strength along with power.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *You guys may know martial arts but you seem kinda clueless about bodybuilding.   Light weight with alot of reps will build mass just like lifting heavy weights will.  In fact talk to a pro wrestler sometime those huge guys usally lift about the same amount of weight that I do at the gym.  In fact when I am bulking up I usally go to 10 sets of ten reps with a 45 second break between them.   I only lift heavy maybe once or twice a month just to see what my max strength is.  Lifting a weight so heavy that you can only lift it once is not the best way to develop strength or mass. *


Bump that.

8-12 reps, around 3 sets is for bulking

High weights (like 70%-90% of your ORM) at 2-6 reps is for strength, not for mass

You are right, maxing out frequently is not good.  Powerlifters don't even do that.  Well, they do it once a month to find out where they're at.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Astra _
> *You talk to a pro wrestler, I talk to a few pro-bodybuilders. Go figure. Developing "bulk" or beeing huge BTW, is not only limited to the excercises you do. It's much more dependant to your protein intake, and it all tends to vary from person to person. Fact. *


Mass = Genetics, caloric intake, protein intake, carb intake at the right times, monosaturated fat, a BODYBUILDING program that includes some shock training for a week every few months or so, smart diet and smart training, etc.


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