# How much Sparring?



## Shogun (Sep 14, 2004)

I'm sure its been asked before, but I couldnt find the thread.

How many of you do sparring in your Ninjutsu/Taijutsu/etc classes? by sparring, I include freestyle scenarios, striking with gloves, grappling, randori, etc

I know some schools dont really do it, and some do too much. There is two schools in my area, which I go to both occasionally. one does almost none, another has an entire day for it. We use pads, and we do Randori Grappling.


----------



## Enson (Sep 14, 2004)

we do quite a bit of scenario sparring. unless we are fully padded we don't go full speed for fear of hurting our sparring partner. we also use sparring for sword training with the shinai. sparring is common in our school.


peace


----------



## Genin Andrew (Sep 14, 2004)

Sparring is a significant aspect of Ninjukai, its very common. Its a great way to learn the effectiveness of your techniques but more importantly to learn how to use your feet and understand the flow of your body under pressure. Sparring is done with all weapons as well, and there's nothing like watching some good senior students battle it out with Bo's...beautiful.

-andrew


----------



## AnimEdge (Sep 14, 2004)

We do sparring quite often in ours, we did it yesterday  we dont manly use protection becouse we are manly going for locks more than strikes but sometime we pull out the pads


----------



## Shogun (Sep 14, 2004)

The BJJ school I went to had a couple students that were suprised at the amount of ground skill I had. most of it was from Taijutsu class.


----------



## r.severe (Sep 17, 2004)

Classes at My Academy,

Sparring is a word that can be confusing..
But..

Classes here drill ....
1, free combative concepts or Randori Geiko from set attacks against them unarmed or with weaponry...
2, ground engagements against one or more attackers unarmed or with weaponry.. using only locks or submissions... or strikes added, Randori...
3, standing engagements against one or more attackers unarmed or with weaponry.. using only locks or submissions... or with strikes added, Randori....

In my opinion sparring should be very light for warm-up at the beginning of classes... never to get out of hand or out of control to the point the student is not learning or researching.. with protective gloves and or shin and instep protection on.

Mouth guards are a must at all time during any free training where the student is exploring their skills openly.

When students vote on harder sparring it is don&#8217;t with weaponry with proper protective gear and with unarmed gear..

In my opinion hard sparring should not be done over 5% of the training base outline monthly.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Shogun (Sep 18, 2004)

We grapple regularly, using mainly Takagi Yoshin ryu technique. I wouldnt say it doesnt improve the curriculum. in fact I would say the opposite. The human body must learn how a technique is performed when the opponent is not compliant in order to perfect it. We dont do striking sparring regularly, because with gloves on and at full contact, most of the strikes become brutally innefective, or simply cant be used without injury. Grappling however, using the Jime Waza and Gatame Waza, is very useful. BJJ guys spar every class period. so do Judo guys. The technique evolves when the practitioner finds flaws or secrets of a certain technique or Kata.

I have heard from people from the other Kan, but I havent heard much (or any) from the Booj guys.


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 18, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I wouldnt say it doesnt improve the curriculum. in fact I would say the opposite. The human body must learn how a technique is performed when the opponent is not compliant in order to perfect it.



I have to take issue with this.

In the Bujinkan, I learn that you take the path of least resistance. So if the other guy is "not compliant" as you say it is, you change to a technique where he is. In trying to resist one technique, he leaves himself open to another. Trying to do a technique even if the opponent is trying to stop you from doing that particular technique is against the principles of Kyojitsu tenkan ho.

If you train in the traditional, Japanese methods you learn this as part of kata while training on a weekly basis with a student senior to you. They set up an attack that is perfect for the technique that you are expect to use. If you do not do the technique as is expected, you will not take the person down. If you leave yourself open to an attack, you will get smacked. kata training can be very frustrating and painfull if done right. And it trains you to move in certain ways rather than in just any method that conforms to the artificial rules of sparring.

This whole mess has been discussed before. Take a look at the following for the run down.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15532&page=2


----------



## Shogun (Sep 18, 2004)

With most of the Taijutsu curriculum I totally agree. resistant opponents (in training) only hinder your training. However, for the grappling techniques(jime waza etc), it is unrealistic to train against a compliant opponent. I dont know if anyone here on the Ninjutsu forum grapples regularly, but without the proper technique against a non-compliant opponent, most of the stuff doesnt work. using Atemi sometimes doesnt work during grappling either. I tried aginst a wrestler once, and he simply pinned my legs and arms. you have to get into a position to use Atemi before you can actually make it effective. This may not be the tradtitional methods of training, but I find it much more practical.

thanks for your time,

KE


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 19, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> However, for the grappling techniques(jime waza etc), it is unrealistic to train against a compliant opponent. I dont know if anyone here on the Ninjutsu forum grapples regularly, but without the proper technique against a non-compliant opponent, most of the stuff doesnt work.



Based on your experience I assume.
So what is your experience in Bujinkan Taijutsu. Since I mentioned the way things were done in Japan, how much training have you had in Japan or under a Japanese instructor teaching in that method?

I was under the impression that your main experience with Bujinkan was through a video home black belt course. Do you have experience with the way the Japanese have traditionally trained in small groups of long term students?


----------



## AaronLucia (Sep 19, 2004)

In the 3 months of Ninjutsu that iv'e taken, we haven't really done any sparring. 

We mostly do the slow attack/defend thing.


----------



## Shogun (Sep 20, 2004)

> I was under the impression that your main experience with Bujinkan was through a video home black belt course


Incorrect.
My training in Taijutsu is done at a local booj dojo. My main training is in Shin Ryu Aiki at the _Tsubaki Kannagara Jinjya_. The HSC are just aides.
I only say that grappling should be done in the form of randori sometimes, because I sometimes compete in MMA events, I have grappled with BJJ guys, and the stuff i have learned without sparring , doesnt work for me.
In _Aiki_ and in most of the _Ten Ryaku no maki_ I have done, I dont think non-compliant opponents should be used, because although a street comflict might seem non-compliant, it doesnt happen that way. people dont _usually_ establish a strong base, and all that.


> Do you have experience with the way the Japanese have traditionally trained in small groups of long term students?


No. Can you explain please? thanks, Don.


----------



## r.severe (Sep 20, 2004)

"done in Japan"

I have spoken with 5 people who have traveled to Japan and trained in the Bujinkan Dojo there in the past two years.
None seen or had any report about sparring when asked.
Meaning they never seen any
So where is the sparring being domne if not in the main Dojo in Japan of the Bujinkan Dojo?

I was in Japan in 1992 for 30 days.
I spoke with well over 40 members of the Bujinkan during beers, tea, food and training.. none had any experience sparring at any Bujinkan Dojo or have seen any.
So where is the sparring being domne if not in the main Dojo in Japan of the Bujinkan Dojo?

Just a simple question...

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 21, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> "done in Japan"
> 
> I have spoken with 5 people who have traveled to Japan and trained in the Bujinkan Dojo there in the past two years.
> None seen or had any report about sparring when asked.
> ...



Did I say there was sparring done in Japan? Go back please and try to read what I wrote instead of leaping at the chance to cause trouble.

Perhaps the question should be why people like Hatsumi and Nagato, who have greater experience in fighting in the ring than any of us, are now not running sparring in their classes. What are they doing instead?


----------



## Shogun (Sep 21, 2004)

I figured thats what you meant, Don. It sounded like u were getting at the fact that sparring was not done.
Hatsumi in-ring? not familiar with this. info please?


Once again, though. I am only talking about grappling. I don't know how many of the Bujinkan guys have sparred (grappled) a competent grappler like a college wrestler or Brazillian Jiu jitsu guy....You can learn the method and concept of a particular grappling technique thru Kata, but it is limited when facing a ground expert who has sparring experience. Just IMO.


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 22, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Hatsumi in-ring? not familiar with this. info please?



What!!!! You are not aware that Hatsumi was a fifth dan in Judo before he started looking for someone like Takamatsu, and that to get to that rank he had to go through a lot of bouts on the mat? I can imagine if you did not know that the rules in judo at the time would make even the UFC freak out, but I would think that everyone would know that Hatumi was an ex-judoka and Nagato was a kickboxing champion in Japan. They both went through a lot of pounding and being forced into unconciousness and having seen both sides of the debate they now do not run sparring in their classes.

Of course, they do not think that any situation where two guys getting into a ring is anywhere near the same as when you lover's jelous ex-boyfriend jumps you from behind in the parking lot. But I did see one guy who has claimed to have had hundreds of "fights" get one of his students to post how he had witnessed one of these "fights" and how both guys SIGNED LEGAL PAPERS before getting it on. Thus their "fight" was just another variation of sparring. So if we are to say that situation is a fight, then we should give credit to Hatsumi and Nagato as being even better at fighting than anyone else here.

As for the methods used in Japan, it is hard to describe. But let us just say that if you work out with a senior Japanese with whom you have a good relationship with he will not "just let" you do the move. That is not the same as saying that he will not "let" you do the throw, he will not flip himself, but will not go if the technique has flaws he can exploit. He might also do things like reach gently up and touch your eyebrow. Useless in a match and will not get you anywhere. But it lets you know that you left yourself open to an eye gouge. 

There are drawbacks if not done correctly. As a matter of fact, I think I am going to have to have  a talk with one of my juniors in my dojo who can't lay a finger on me but seems to spend a lot of time trying to set up a counter attack to my technique rather than give me a good initial attack to work off of. It usually takes several months before you prove yourself worthy of such attention and are not just strutting around waiting to teach. And since most people who come in train with others that came in with them, your teacher may never have trained much with a Japanese partner in Japan.


----------



## Enson (Sep 22, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But I did see one guy who has claimed to have had hundreds of "fights" get one of his students to post how he had witnessed one of these "fights" and how both guys SIGNED LEGAL PAPERS before getting it on. Thus their "fight" was just another variation of sparring. So if we are to say that situation is a fight, then we should give credit to Hatsumi and Nagato as being even better at fighting than anyone else here.
> 
> .


:lurk:
i think controlled sparring is great. even if its just for cardio and to break a good sweat. i do personally enjoy more scenario training. with this you can act out a situation even with multiple attackers and perfect your technique. you can pause, go back and even fast foward. much like a dvd!


----------



## Shogun (Sep 22, 2004)

I did know that Hatsumi did Judo, and went looking for something else (Taijutsu) because how easily americans and big Japanese could muscle in and out of Judo techniques (was that right?) I wasnt aware of the old Judo rules, though. At the Tsubaki grand shrine, we train in a traditional Japanese manner. Barrish sensei and his senior students will do much the same thing. I call them love taps. after a throw, we will either immobilize them with a pin, or simply stand above them in the correct position until they arent a threat, or retreat. if there is an opening, we will lightly kick, pinch, punch, or even slap, just to show flaws, openings, and the like.
again though, I only say (for me anyway) that grappling using the grappling techniques helps in the event of tangling with a wrestler or BJJ guy (or gal) which in the states, is very common these days. The BJJ schools have about 20-60 people attending them, and it only takes 5-8 months of training to be able to completely control a person on the ground. BJJ doesnt put as much value into character and disclipline like the Asian arts do. So some BJJers think they are badasses 'cause they can roll good. and sometimes they are. I always say, It's better to know something works, than to hope something works. It cant hurt, right?


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 22, 2004)

Shogun, 

at our dojo we do randori at the end of class for a week or so before we test, because in order to pass a test, after all the "formal" testing, we need to complete randori as well.  

Thats about the extent of it in our dojo.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 29, 2004)

Love sparring, but things tend to get out of hand when it evolves into giving and taking, and it's easy to deceive yourself into thinking it's the same as the real thing...


----------



## r.severe (Sep 29, 2004)

Sparring..

Going out and training football shooting on goal, passing, running with the ball.. etc.. during training.. is like a game.. but without the mental stress..

Much like sparring is like fighting.. you just don't have the animal mind set to hurt your partner..

I don't feel sparring is a big deal and I can't understand why it is asked about so much.. it should be part of every class.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 29, 2004)

Exactly. Sparring isn't a big deal. Which is why it shouldn't be very heavily relied upon.


----------



## r.severe (Sep 29, 2004)

Yes, sparring is like swimming..
If you wish to swim.. you got to get wet.. but if you only going to research swimming and not really going to swim.. what's the need of getting wet?

This is much like kenjutsu..

Many have katana.. 
They put them on the wall..
Play arounf with them now and then..
Even dress up and play ninja or samurai..

But never train kenjutsu with the katana..

Nothing is so shameful than watching masters or experts teach kenjutsu without first training for many years and cutting 100's of targets and sparring with weaponry.. to pass on honest training methods.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 29, 2004)

Thing is, with the swimming analogy, when things go too fast people often start confusing their backyard pool and the ocean.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 29, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> when things go too fast people often start confusing their backyard pool and the ocean.


That is a great analogy.


----------



## r.severe (Sep 30, 2004)

Speed has noting to do with pragmatic sparring.. or fighting and backyard pools don't either. But getting wet is getting wet.. never the less if your in a backyard pool, shower, or river..

Sitting at a table looking at pictures or talking about it.. a backyard pool, a river or a shower and telling people you got wet is mainly what I have experienced in martial arts.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 30, 2004)

That's funny. Almost sounds as if you've been spending too much time on ARMA's essay pages.


----------



## r.severe (Sep 30, 2004)

I'm a funny guy.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## r.severe (Sep 30, 2004)

How much sparring..

Sparring is a complex and very misunderstood subject..
Most of the misconception comes from the lack of knowledge of sparring or no sparring experience at all.

You may also look at sparring the same manner you would look at hitting.

A student who trains bujutsu but doesn't hit targets on a weekly basis really is missing a great deal of the 'feel' and 'pragmatic' views of hitting.

Understanding this then you should assume this student doesn't truly know hitting from experience at all.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 30, 2004)

I look at sparring the same way I look at a chess game - back and forth, give and take.


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 30, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Thing is, with the swimming analogy, when things go too fast people often start confusing their backyard pool and the ocean.



Nice analogy. But there is of course more to the situation.

I think the big problem is ego. People want to win and have other people know they won. It has been my experience that when people start to do things that let them be one up on another person in the dojo, things are going to evolve into who can do better in that situation. And I would like people to recall that Darwin did not really say that sparring made living organisms _improve_. Rather it merely made them _better adapted to the enviroment._ 

The enviroment in the ring is not combat. But people who notice who does better in the ring tend to adapt what they do for the ring and lose sight of the street. They leave things hanging out that will get cut off in a real fight and if it is pointed out to them they will give the excuse, "oh- I won't do that in a real fight."

The hell you won't.

I went drinking with some guys who do budo here in Japan and one guy who did MMA was talking about how he easily knocked out Kyokushin guys in his class. Kyokushin does some pretty horrendous things in their tournaments. But they do not allow punches to the face. These guys that went into my drinking buddy's place knew that they had to watch their heads, and still got clobbered. Months after they started training in this guys MMA dojo they still could not cover themselves in the head after a few years of training themselves to not think about punches to the face.

Oh yes, I am sure everyone says that the cure is more realistic rules. But no rule is near the level of realism of a real fight. No one worries about the guy pulling a knife out in a sparring session anymore than the Kyokushin guys used to think about someone throwing a punch at their face. And we tend to adapt to that reality and ingrain it into us.

Hence, (trying to rap this up in a hurry) we should get rid of the idea that someone should "win" in a sparring match and try to prevent people from being able to recognize who is better than who in training. And we should try a variety of situations and rules, none of them enough for people to start reallly adapting to the rules. For example, half speed trainign with goggles on and taps to the eyes being permited might make people concious of how oepn they leave themselves to an eye gouge while doing scenario training where a few students in a teaching role may jump in unexpectedly or produce weapons unexpectedly.

Hatsumi dropped sparring because he found that it was causing his gaijin students to develop bad habits. We need to think about that, and the resons behind it, if we are to use sparring.


----------



## r.severe (Sep 30, 2004)

Don wrote, "The enviroment in the ring is not combat."

Could you please give a few accounts on your personal involvment or experiece with ring fighting for us. I'm not aware of any matches you have had in your past Don. 
I would expect you to have experience with ring fighting to make such a comment on it not being combative.
What do you have to compare it to?
I mean what fighting experience do you have?
I don't recall you ever saying you had any when we spoke years ago.
Or did you get this idea of "The enviroment in the ring is not combat." from a book or video tape or maybe a seminar? 

thanks,
ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 30, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Or did you get this idea of "The enviroment in the ring is not combat." from a book or video tape or maybe a seminar?
> 
> thanks,
> ralph severe, kamiyama


 Ralph, forgive my lack of experience when I speak, but this is my take on that...

 In the ring, you are fighting... it is like a Duel.  Two opponenets "square up" prepare to fight, fight, until one submits.  

 While that is certainly a fight... its not "Real" in the sense that in a confrontation, one party typicaly wants to fight, the other may not... add in variables that dont come into play in the ring like one fighter turning and running, or blindsiding you with a handful of gravel... picking up a stick or a rock... having his friends jump in and help, drawing a knife or gun if the fight isnt going his way, biting your ear off, a cop driving by, someone gets killed,  you snap bones, break kneecaps, etc...

 It is a different animal.  

 I am lucky that I have only been in a few real fights... Hell, I fought in more tournaments in my hapkido days than I have been in real fights... But I am also a Biker, I hang out in Biker bars, and I have seen my fair share of "Real" fights... and they never seem to go down the way a fight occurs in the ring.  Aside from the occasional pair of drunk frat boys... I have never seen a "Duel" type fight on the street, the way it does in the ring.  Maybe some of our LEO friends on the board could add their expeirence responding to fights on the street...


----------



## Enson (Sep 30, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Hence, (trying to rap this up in a hurry) we should get rid of the idea that someone should "win" in a sparring match and try to prevent people from being able to recognize who is better than who in training. And we should try a variety of situations and rules, none of them enough for people to start reallly adapting to the rules. For example, half speed trainign with goggles on and taps to the eyes being permited might make people concious of how oepn they leave themselves to an eye gouge while doing scenario training where a few students in a teaching role may jump in unexpectedly or produce weapons unexpectedly.


 i agree. that is exactly why i enjoy scenario training more. "what do i do now" training. its easy just to start wrestling and trying to show that you are better than helping each other out.
peace


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 30, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Don wrote, "The enviroment in the ring is not combat."
> 
> Could you please give a few accounts on your personal involvment or experiece with ring fighting for us. I'm not aware of any matches you have had in your past Don.
> I would expect you to have experience with ring fighting to make such a comment on it not being combative.
> ...


 
Are you saying that because of your experience in real combat, you are able to jump to the conclusion that ring fighting is the same as real world confrontations?


----------



## ninhito (Sep 30, 2004)

hey i have a question.  Whats the difference in Taijutsu that was taught from Hatsumi and the Toshinden and other hand-to-hand combat that is in ninjutsu.


----------



## r.severe (Sep 30, 2004)

In the ring, you are fighting... it is like a Duel. Two opponenets "square up" prepare to fight, fight, until one submits. 
**ky, yes, I would agree from my experience sparring 1,000s of times.. ******

While that is certainly a fight... its not "Real" in the sense that in a confrontation, one party typicaly wants to fight, the other may not... add in variables that dont come into play in the ring like one fighter turning and running, or blindsiding you with a handful of gravel... picking up a stick or a rock... having his friends jump in and help, drawing a knife or gun if the fight isnt going his way, biting your ear off, a cop driving by, someone gets killed, you snap bones, break kneecaps, etc...
**ky, yes I will agree. But during a match or sparring it can be taken to levels of &#8216;fear&#8217; or &#8216;stress&#8217; where you experience a fight. Getting hit in the face is getting hit in the face.. it really doesn&#8217;t matter&#8230; 
But yes, throwing in the level of &#8216;pragmatic&#8217; use of your skills does change the game, this comes from my personal experience and not from books, tapes of seminars&#8230;. been there and done that a few times more than a few..*****

But what does this have to do with someone saying something without having experience? This was my question.
My opinion would be they should say, what I've seen, what I've read, what I've watched on TV.. etc.. other than coming across as experienced fighters.
This was just my point.
The web gives way to forums and people abuse them in many ways acting out many fantasy type macho fighters.. when in fact they haven't even been in one or two.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## r.severe (Sep 30, 2004)

Are you saying that because of your experience in real combat, you are able to jump to the conclusion that ring fighting is the same as real world confrontations?

**ky, I am not jumping to any conclusions at all. 
I just asked what experience does this person have to make the comments they made about sparring or fighting.****

hey i have a question. Whats the difference in Taijutsu that was taught from Hatsumi and the Toshinden and other hand-to-hand combat that is in ninjutsu.

**ky, Hatsumi sensei teaches what was handed down to him by his teachers. He lacks real fight time himself. So you have made up 'feelings' of how one 'believes' a fight should be while teaching combative arts.
So what I have experienced with him was he does things in a stop and go manner losing the flow and chaos of the fight.
I know nothing of Toshinden.
Hand to Hand in Ninpo Bugei comes mainly from Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu The few exceptions of techniques of escape and evasion from Togakure ryu.****

ralph severe kamiyama


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 30, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> **ky, Hatsumi sensei teaches what was handed down to him by his teachers. He lacks real fight time himself. So you have made up 'feelings' of how one 'believes' a fight should be while teaching combative arts.
> So what I have experienced with him was he does things in a stop and go manner losing the flow and chaos of the fight.


Is it really that hard for you to see beyond the stop and go part of training?


----------



## Blind (Sep 30, 2004)

IMO, if you imagine Hatsumi is lacking in real fight experience it is only fair that you go to Japan and teach him about it, after all he introduced you to the schools you are teaching right? He might even pay you for the training.(I am sure you had to pay him for yours)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 30, 2004)

Heck, I'd pay to see Ralph's reunion with Hatsumi sensei & co.:ultracool


----------



## Blind (Sep 30, 2004)

We know it will never happen, but it is a curious thought I`ll admit!


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 30, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Don wrote, "The enviroment in the ring is not combat."
> 
> Could you please give a few accounts on your personal involvment or experiece with ring fighting for us. I'm not aware of any matches you have had in your past Don.



Because I do not like to talk about my past. The art I studied before I started Bujinkan was very big on hard contact sparring. I felt very macho, very sure of myself on the street, and later found out I had really huge holes that others could drive right through.

I really do not have much good to say about my experiences before Bujinkan and prefer to just not talk about it much.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 30, 2004)

ninhito said:
			
		

> hey i have a question. Whats the difference in Taijutsu that was taught from Hatsumi and the Toshinden and other hand-to-hand combat that is in ninjutsu.


Taijutsu is the basis for the hand to hand combat in the Ninjutsu styles taught by Hatsumi... as far as I know, all the ninjutsu fighting arts use Taijutsu.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 30, 2004)

No ninjutsu without taijutsu.


----------



## Kizaru (Sep 30, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> **ky, Hatsumi sensei teaches what was handed down to him by his teachers. He lacks real fight time himself.
> ralph severe kamiyama


Mr. Severe, are 100% sure about that statement being a fact?



			
				r.severe said:
			
		

> Hand to Hand in Ninpo Bugei comes mainly from Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu The few exceptions of techniques of escape and evasion from Togakure ryu.****


Interesting observation. I suppose this ties into the Ninjutsu/Taijutsu question posted somewhere else in this thread...

:asian:


----------



## r.severe (Oct 1, 2004)

Nimravus asked, "Is it really that hard for you to see beyond the stop and go part of training?"

**ky, Stop and go are not natural. It goes AGAINST flow.****

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## r.severe (Oct 1, 2004)

Blind states-asked, "IMO, if you imagine Hatsumi is lacking in real fight experience it is only fair that you go to Japan and teach him about it, after all he introduced you to the schools you are teaching right?"

**ky, more or less everytime or almost everytime the subject of Hatsumi sensei not having fighting experience comes up the cop out goes to "why not go and tell or This guy does or goto Japan and show them, etc..
This is really not important or the subject on this thread.
And what difference does it make if Hatsumi sensei has fighting experience or not... You don't have to being the soke or what ever.. you are just a holder of scrolls NOT a fighter.
The scrolls don't give you abilities.
It's just information.
And if he introduced me to any system or not still doesn't give him abilities in fighting.****

ralph severe, kamiyama




 He might even pay you for the training.(I am sure you had to pay him for yours)


----------



## r.severe (Oct 1, 2004)

Technopunk states, "Taijutsu is the basis for the hand to hand combat in the Ninjutsu styles taught by Hatsumi... as far as I know, all the ninjutsu fighting arts use Taijutsu."

**ky, all athletic journeys have body skills, as does all boxing, judo, kali, ninjutsu, karate, taekwondo, etc.. 
Taijutsu is not a special word for Ninjutsu or any other athletic adventure.
No, not all ninjutsu arts have hand-to-hand combat skills. Many were just tactics.****

Ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## r.severe (Oct 1, 2004)

Kizaru asked, "Mr. Severe, are 100% sure about that statement being a fact?"

**ky, while in Japan in 1992 he had three interviews with me at his home which I spent 20 hours.
He spoke to me about his past in detail as far as sparring and fighting goes.
During these conversations he spoke about his lack of real fighting experience.****

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Kizaru (Oct 1, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> **ky, while in Japan in 1992 he had three interviews with me at his home which I spent 20 hours.
> ralph severe, kamiyama


What else did you and Mr. Hatsumi discuss? Your merits? Places he thought you could improve in? The direction he thought the Bujinkan should be going in?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 1, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Nimravus asked, "Is it really that hard for you to see beyond the stop and go part of training?"
> 
> **ky, Stop and go are not natural. It goes AGAINST flow.****
> 
> ralph severe, kamiyama


If only everyone had the amazing ability to effortless flowing taijutsu from the start of their training as you seem to possess...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 1, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Blind states-asked, "IMO, if you imagine Hatsumi is lacking in real fight experience it is only fair that you go to Japan and teach him about it, after all he introduced you to the schools you are teaching right?"
> 
> **ky, more or less everytime or almost everytime the subject of Hatsumi sensei not having fighting experience comes up the cop out goes to "why not go and tell or This guy does or goto Japan and show them, etc..
> This is really not important or the subject on this thread.
> ...


----------



## ninhito (Oct 1, 2004)

hey guys not to try and change the subject.  hey how far does sparring go.  Does it go 'til someone breaks a bone or does it stop when someone bleeds or starts cryin'.


----------



## Shogun (Oct 1, 2004)

Well then.....

It has been made clear that Bujinkan doesnt typically spar or grapple.
IMO, it is typically (though not entirely) irrelevant whether someone has fighting experience or not. Fights are not staged, so something that works in one fight may not work in another fight. Brazillian Jiu jitsu is now the most popular MA in the USA right now. Some of the people who do it are not nice guys. this can be said for any MA, but especially for BJJ because it does not put emphasis on good moral character. If The Bujinkan is teaching grappling, but not putting it into practice, it would not survive someone who can take them down unexpectedly and pin them, while working on a submission. my thoughts.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 1, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Well then.....
> 
> It has been made clear that Bujinkan doesnt typically spar or grapple.
> IMO, it is typically (though not entirely) irrelevant whether someone has fighting experience or not. Fights are not staged, so something that works in one fight may not work in another fight. Brazillian Jiu jitsu is now the most popular MA in the USA right now. Some of the people who do it are not nice guys. this can be said for any MA, but especially for BJJ because it does not put emphasis on good moral character. If The Bujinkan is teaching grappling, but not putting it into practice, it would not survive someone who can take them down unexpectedly and pin them, while working on a submission. my thoughts.


Assuming one fights under their conditions - sure.


----------



## ninhito (Oct 2, 2004)

o okay thanks


----------



## ninhito (Oct 2, 2004)

How come you would need to do it in  a dojo.  If you and yours freinds are learning martial arts then they could learn from your tactics, granted there not in to much pain, and you learn from theres.  I have a freind who is a pretty good street fighter but im extremely unpredictable to him so he basicly gets hurt.  Just like with my other freinds, see.  I learned something from everyone including the movies. heh heh heh


----------



## Shogun (Oct 2, 2004)

> Assuming one fights under their conditions - sure.


I was messing around with a huge wrestler before I began any grappling. all I had was Aikijutsu and TKD. I started to hit him and he threw me to the ground. once on the ground, I tried to strike him, and he pinned my hands to the ground, raised up, and flattened my legs out. (in Saturday night ride for freestyler's out there). He could have headbutted me, bit me, or pulled one arm up, and because of the reach advantage, struck me. all I could have done was spit on him. Now, after grappling, he tries the same technique, and I have no trouble getting out of it. this was in a backyard, and not a pre-set sparring incident. it just happened. he got kinda mad, and threw me down w/o warning.



> hey guys not to try and change the subject. hey how far does sparring go. Does it go 'til someone breaks a bone or does it stop when someone bleeds or starts cryin'.


about sparring:
Typically in classes, sparring goes a set amount of time, or until someone gives up or is knocked out or down. no messes.


----------



## r.severe (Oct 3, 2004)

What else did you and Mr. Hatsumi discuss? 
**ky, a lot about my art and back ground in life as well as his books he would like to make, Japanese armor, his knife collection, family and teaching.****

Your merits? 
**ky, yes****

Places he thought you could improve in?
**ky, Hatsumi sensei said to me that he could not help me with fighting because he knew I was already experienced from watching me and most likely far beyond his experience. He worked with me mainly on kukishinden ryu weaponry during my 30 day stay. He had me demonstrate four times fighting skills of my own before and during classes at the Budokan.**** 

The direction he thought the Bujinkan should be going in?
**ky, I did not concern myself with the Bujinkan and mainly never have. I only concerned myself with the soke and the ryuha of the Bujinkan..****

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 3, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I was messing around with a huge wrestler before I began any grappling. all I had was Aikijutsu and TKD. I started to hit him and he threw me to the ground. once on the ground, I tried to strike him, and he pinned my hands to the ground, raised up, and flattened my legs out. (in Saturday night ride for freestyler's out there). He could have headbutted me, bit me, or pulled one arm up, and because of the reach advantage, struck me. all I could have done was spit on him. Now, after grappling, he tries the same technique, and I have no trouble getting out of it. this was in a backyard, and not a pre-set sparring incident. it just happened. he got kinda mad, and threw me down w/o warning.


Well, in that case, since TKD involves sparring, we can pretty much discard it as a method of proving what works, no?


----------



## ninhito (Oct 3, 2004)

hey guys if you want to be a top notch fighter , considering that one martial art can be beaten by another or by a quick adapting opponent, then wouldnt you learn karate, which focuses more on the hands although there isnt any weapons, and teakwondo, which focuses on the feet or kicking and incorperates weapones.


----------



## Blind (Oct 3, 2004)

**ky, more or less everytime or almost everytime the subject of Hatsumi sensei not having fighting experience comes up the cop out goes to "why not go and tell or This guy does or goto Japan and show them, etc..
This is really not important or the subject on this thread.
And what difference does it make if Hatsumi sensei has fighting experience or not... You don't have to being the soke or what ever.. you are just a holder of scrolls NOT a fighter.
The scrolls don't give you abilities.
It's just information.
And if he introduced me to any system or not still doesn't give him abilities in fighting.****

ralph severe, kamiyama

 You may be right that it is a cop out and I agree that being in possession of some paper does not make you a fighter. From what I heard he had had plenty of experience at least sparring wise but I won`t pretend to know if that is true or not. I would point out though that as far as credentials go he seems to be a few points above you, and while it is possible that there are thousands of people too stupid to see your superior method of training for real combat, it does seem that many more are willing to listen to what he has to say about real combat than are willing to listen to you. Considering the quality of a few of them who have been in wars and such, I think it is quite insulting to say he lacks experience...a well mannered person who thought so wouldn`t say these things, at least not on a public forum.


----------



## ninhito (Oct 3, 2004)

Hey blind do you practise ninjutsu


----------



## ninhito (Oct 3, 2004)

Hmmmm how come everyone wants proof of credentials?  Why does it matter, just askin?


----------



## r.severe (Oct 3, 2004)

Blind states, "Considering the quality of a few of them who have been in wars and such, I think it is quite insulting to say he lacks experience..."

Being a fighter and a solder are not the same.
A fighter is a person who experienced fighting.
A solder can stand around or get shot at and never see his foe.
He can fly a plane and drop rocks on people and never see his foe.
A solder can sit behind a desk 1&#8217;000&#8217;s of miles from the battlefield and never see action at all.
Some can also experience battle and still never experience killing or the action of fighting.

I have never said I disrespect him or feel he was not a great teacher.

Ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## ninhito (Oct 3, 2004)

WILL SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION? or maybe im asking to many questions. Hmmm food for thought mm mm good.


----------



## Kizaru (Oct 3, 2004)

ninhito said:
			
		

> hey guys if you want to be a top notch fighter , considering that one martial art can be beaten by another or by a quick adapting opponent, then wouldnt you learn karate, which focuses more on the hands although there isnt any weapons, and teakwondo, which focuses on the feet or kicking and incorperates weapones.


Or how about learn to be a "quick adapting fighter" yourself, rather than learning a little of this and a little of that?


----------



## Blind (Oct 3, 2004)

I am a student in the Bujikan. I didn`t say credentials were important per say, just that at the end of the day Hatsumi has been a lot more places and seemingly done a lot more things, for Ralph to say he is lacking in anything seems a little rude to me.

Personally I think the main problem is that people(including myself in some cases I guess) tend to place their values as being most important, which is not a bad thing IMO, but in doing that there is a tendency to say others are LACKING or not as good just because they do things differently than you imagine is the correct way.

I didn`t say Ralph, that you said you disrespected Hatsumi or that you said he was a bad teacher, what I said was I find what you wrote to be quite insulting I think was the word used, rude may have been better. 

I am not saying Ralph that you are wrong in your approach to the art at all, I just don`t see why you would bother to say a man who was your teacher and whos arts you learned from him is lacking, if you think you have moved on past him fine...is this a publicity thing? Why not just leave it at your old point of view that most bujinkaners have no idea of a real fight because they don`t practise fake ones?


----------



## Kizaru (Oct 4, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> A fighter is a person who experienced fighting.
> A solder can stand around or get shot at and never see his foe.
> Ralph severe, kamiyama


With all due respect Mr. Severe,
A soldier can extinguish someone with a knife.
A soldier can extinguish someone with their bare hands.
A soldier can extinguish someone with a shovel.
A soldier can extinguish someone with a bayonet.
A soldier can extinguish someone at close range with a bullet.
A soldier in combat witnesses lives being extinguished all around him.

Is this included in your range of experiences?

What is a "fighter" in a ring or a bar room brawler fighting for? Pride? Money?
Soldiers "fight" for the lives of the men next to them, as well as for their own lives. I believe the "motivation" is different. Some people have experiencd this "motivation" without being exposed to total war, others have. I believe that Hatsumi sensei has quite a few students who have been through this experience, as well as many who can learn from the experience of others. 

:asian:


----------



## r.severe (Oct 4, 2004)

Blind asked, "I am not saying Ralph that you are wrong in your approach to the art at all, I just don`t see why you would bother to say a man who was your teacher and whos arts you learned from him is lacking, if you think you have moved on past him fine...is this a publicity thing? Why not just leave it at your old point of view that most bujinkaners have no idea of a real fight because they don`t practise fake ones?"

First point Hatsumi sensei is still my guide. or teacher as many would call him.
It is incorrect to assume he is not just because I chat about honest points in his martial views of combative methodology.

The forum here as well as all forums I have read place issues in writing on post.. that's all I'm doing.. no "publicity".

Fact being no one knows what a 'real ' fight is until they experience it.

ralph severe, kamiyama


----------



## ninhito (Oct 4, 2004)

Why are you guys argueing over Hatsumi's credentials?  I like the way he teaches all though i havent been to anything but i've read somebooks of his and saw what he did in those books.


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 4, 2004)

ninhito said:
			
		

> Why are you guys argueing over Hatsumi's credentials? I like the way he teaches all though i havent been to anything but i've read somebooks of his and saw what he did in those books.


 Ninhito, 

 Re-read the post and I think you will find the question is not about Hatsumi's credentials.


----------



## ninhito (Oct 4, 2004)

Okay i get it.  You guys are argueing over his fighting experience.  Okay now this question was not answered on the thread so.  How come it matters so much?


----------



## AaronLucia (Oct 4, 2004)

Ninhito, if the art you are taking has no fighting experience, then why are you taking it?


----------



## ninhito (Oct 4, 2004)

Good piont and Kizaru how come you cant change the flow and if your suppose to be an adapting fighter then how come people who fight BJJ dont learn from there fights?  How come they get pinned? Even though the BJJ spar alot will that help you beat them?  I know this probably was answered already but why dont you HIGH RANKING (only) spar with each other?  Do you always need your sensei there?  Why not set some ground rules (or not) and just start fightin?  Its how it goes down in the street and then you could add some people.  Those people you would know about, because you guys train together or not, but you dont know what there carrien or where there comin from.  Just my thoughts.  Your right though, why laern a martial art that doesn't work.


----------



## ninhito (Oct 4, 2004)

Then youd at least see alot of situations.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 4, 2004)

Seems as though I've hit my head, am I alive, or am I dead?


----------



## ninhito (Oct 4, 2004)

hmmm
what is the extent of damage done to the brain besides death.


----------



## Shogun (Oct 4, 2004)

> Well, in that case, since TKD involves sparring, we can pretty much discard it as a method of proving what works, no?


I support sparring. I think it should be used. I was just saying, in this particular incident, we werent sparring.


----------



## ninhito (Oct 5, 2004)

hmmm okay thanks just got an idea.


----------

