# How much would you take?



## Brian S (Oct 16, 2007)

The age old advice of "run away," "avoidance and awareness," and such is solid advice in my opinion, but some people simply are not geared that way.

 Whather it be someone picking on you everyday, verbally abusing you, or an attempted assault. How much would you take?

 Would you have to be backed into a corner? Would a threat be enough to make you attack?

 People are different. I just wanted to see what your personal take on things are.

 Thanks!


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## terryl965 (Oct 16, 2007)

For me it is a last resort, inmy earlier years someone looked at me the wrong way it might have set me off. Being backed into a corner leaves no room for negotiation and forces the issue, so for me I would try something before it got to that point.


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## still learning (Oct 16, 2007)

Hello,  I would take a ( 5 ) ......anything higher would get me in trouble? ...just kidding.

Each person has their own limits...each sitution can be different for each....so how much? ....will always depend on the sitution and who is involve? ...and where the location is? 

Against a gang of bad guys? ....I leave or run....against a smaller ,tiny,weaker  person....UM!

That is why I choose "Five" ..........Aloha


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## bushidomartialarts (Oct 16, 2007)

I'd take everything they had to give.  Verbal abuse is nothing, a total waste of their oxygen and my time.  

Now, if somebody puts hands on me, they lose the hand.

And if their comments turned into threats I believed, I would take some sort of action...depends on the situation as to what.

But insult?  Derogatory comment?  Badly-phrased and uncreative attacks on your personality, heritage and sexual prowess?  There's no threat there.

(Keep in mind there's no way I would have said this when I was 19)


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## thardey (Oct 16, 2007)

Brian S said:


> The age old advice of "run away," "avoidance and awareness," and such is solid advice in my opinion, but some people simply are not geared that way.
> 
> Whather it be someone picking on you everyday, verbally abusing you, or an attempted assault. How much would you take?
> 
> ...



I guess it would have to be at a point where it would be worth risking everything.

I could lose - my life, my health, my job, my money, my freedom, my family, my sight, my respect, and my integrity. My son could lose a father, my wife could lose a husband, and my mother could lose a son.

I could also take any of those things from the person I fight with. 

If the situation warrants the risk of the loss of those things, then yeah, I'm in with no hesitation. In short, unless I'm looking at losing most of those things already, it's just not worth it.

Of course, that makes a middle finger waved at me seem pretty puny . . .


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## Kacey (Oct 16, 2007)

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is true only for physical concerns - words don't cause _physical_ damage, but sometimes the damage caused by words can be longer lasting than physical damage.  Nonetheless, I will respond to words _only_ with words, if that; most often, I will walk away rather than enter into an altercation that can only grow worse.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 16, 2007)

thardey said:


> I guess it would have to be at a point where it would be worth risking everything.
> 
> I could lose - my life, my health, my job, my money, my freedom, my family, my sight, my respect, and my integrity. My son could lose a father, my wife could lose a husband, and my mother could lose a son.
> 
> ...


 
This is a really good way to view things.


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## still learning (Oct 16, 2007)

Hello, Many times we "say things'" with good intentions!

In the real world of actual .....that is another story

What we say and what we practice? .....many times differ?  ...you could be having a bad day...the boss chew you out..you wife is leaving you..you kid smash you truck....and this guy comes by and say's something threaten to you? .....will you feel the same as when you are having a great day?      .......Term: "Make my day"

"Hardest thing is to practice what you preach" ...what we say and do? ....can change very easy and quickly.....

Aloha , like a gecko...my colors change quicky....Green?


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Oct 16, 2007)

To me, it's easy enough to sit back and say "I would react this way" or "I would do this" etc. Unfortunately, until you're actually put into a situation it's hard to know just how you'll react.  Personally I try to let all negative verbal comments roll off me, most times it's just not worth getting worked up about.  As for a physical altercation, I prefer not to allow myself to get forced into a corner, though I try not to be the one to hit first, actually I prefer not to get hit at all!

Cheers!​


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## Big Don (Oct 16, 2007)

As there are differing levels of danger from attacks, so there are differing amounts of violence involved in defending against those attacks. I'd take verbal, until I could leave, threats are nothing. However, raise a hand, attempt to strike or assault me and I will respond with an amount of force that will both stop the attack and discourage a second attack. To do more would be criminal, to do less, suicidal.


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## jks9199 (Oct 16, 2007)

It all depends on the specifics of the situation.  If I'm dealing with a 1%er biker...  I'm not taking anything from him, because the moment I take it -- I become meat.  On the job, I there's a lot of stuff I take -- but there's a line verbally that you don't want to cross.  (Little hint... the LAST thing to say to a cop is any variant of "you can't do that to me!" unless you can really back it up.  'Cause I guarantee that if I say I can do it... I can & will.)  And you don't get away with any assault...

Of the clock -- you endanger me or mine, and that's all I'll take.  You can talk, you can call me names, but the instant you cross from blowhard to potential threat ... I'll end it.  With whatever force is necessary.


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## Drac (Oct 16, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> It all depends on the specifics of the situation. If I'm dealing with a 1%er biker... I'm not taking anything from him, because the moment I take it -- I become meat. On the job, I there's a lot of stuff I take -- but there's a line verbally that you don't want to cross. (Little hint... the LAST thing to say to a cop is any variant of "you can't do that to me!" unless you can really back it up. 'Cause I guarantee that if I say I can do it... I can & will.) And you don't get away with any assault...
> 
> Of the clock -- you endanger me or mine, and that's all I'll take. You can talk, you can call me names, but the instant you cross from blowhard to potential threat ... I'll end it. With whatever force is necessary.


 
DAMN jks beat me again..As cops we gotta take a lotta ****..But there is a point of no return..Read his post again...


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## Brian S (Oct 16, 2007)

Lots good replies here as I expected.

 Ofcourse, every situation is different as was pointed out. General answers are good, food for the imigination. 

 I like the comment about how we say we would handle things and how we actually react when they happen.

 A while back I had the opportunity to put my plan into action.

 I was confronted by my girlfriend's X, who is a complete ummmm...jerk.  He bagan shouting and approaching me. I held my hands up and told  him forcefully not to get any closer to me. I had to back up a little, but he never came within reach. He just stood there and yelled obsceneties for a few minutes. All in all my territorial bubble was still in tact. I say that anyone can do anything and we choose to react to it,but if they come within reach in a threatening manner they have made the choice for you and you must react. This is a first strike rule and does not comply with the law in some states,but it is what it is and some things are more important.

 I knew the guy was violent. Afterall, he is still on probation for beating her up pretty badly.

 Thanks to the cops here who serve the public!!! :ultracool

Brian


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## tellner (Oct 16, 2007)

It depends very much on the situation, the degree of danger, how I felt things were moving and what I had to gain and lose by a course of action. If I'm faced with death or a serious violent crime against myself or an innocent under my protection I will strive not to waste an instant neutralizing the threat. 

If it's something that just doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. Let it go. Kick back. Smoke a bowl. Laugh. It's all good.

But there is a middle ground where the conventional wisdom just doesn't work. That's where deterrence comes in. Of the four phases of self defense, the others being prevention, avoidance and resistance, deterrence is the trickiest and the one with the fuzziest edges. It rests on the belief on the part of the offender that whatever he wants is going to cost him more than he cares to pay. You can't do it by being passive and always retreating. You can't do it by avoiding or hiding. When it's done properly it prevents fights. When done incorrectly it starts them. But even then, some of them are fights you might have gotten into anyway.

The conventional wisdom in martial arts is to do nothing physical until the threat is overwhelming at which time you open a can of whoopass. Or you are so masterful that a pain compliance hold or harmless throws will do the trick. We should all be so lucky :shrug:

But that will embolden people who are testing you to see if you'll be a good victim. You're being interviewed for the position of prey, and too much passivity or de-escalation at the wrong time can get you the job. There are times when a look to the effect of "I know what you're thinking, and no it won't work" or a gesture, a few words or any of a number of other things will stop things that were heading for a crime. That's why animals have so many threat displays and posturing. They are telling the other animal "You don't want to do this." Among dangerous animals it often leads to backing down. 

There have even been times when I've moved first because I was sure or what someone else was about to do. A few years ago it was a coworker, a kid who had just gotten forty pounds of muscle and three inches in height along with a massive dose of testosterone. Escalating the situation beyond where he was willing to take it deterred him. That is to say, he made fists, lifted them up and started to say "Oh yeah, an." at which point I smiled and grabbed his nuts. He was interested in playing "Mine is bigger than yours." I wasn't and said in language he could understand through the hormonal fog "I am not playing. I will hurt you very badly."

Was that escalation? Yes. Does it defy the simple rule most people are using here? Yes. Was it the right thing to do? I think so.

The answer to K.I.S.S. is "It ain't simple, and you ain't stupid."


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## jks9199 (Oct 16, 2007)

tellner said:


> But there is a middle ground where the conventional wisdom just doesn't work. That's where deterrence comes in. Of the four phases of self defense, the others being prevention, avoidance and resistance, deterrence is the trickiest and the one with the fuzziest edges. It rests on the belief on the part of the offender that whatever he wants is going to cost him more than he cares to pay. You can't do it by being passive and always retreating. You can't do it by avoiding or hiding. When it's done properly it prevents fights. When done incorrectly it starts them. But even then, some of them are fights you might have gotten into anyway.
> 
> The conventional wisdom in martial arts is to do nothing physical until the threat is overwhelming at which time you open a can of whoopass. Or you are so masterful that a pain compliance hold or harmless throws will do the trick. We should all be so lucky :shrug:
> 
> But that will embolden people who are testing you to see if you'll be a good victim. You're being interviewed for the position of prey, and too much passivity or de-escalation at the wrong time can get you the job. There are times when a look to the effect of "I know what you're thinking, and no it won't work" or a gesture, a few words or any of a number of other things will stop things that were heading for a crime. That's why animals have so many threat displays and posturing. They are telling the other animal "You don't want to do this." Among dangerous animals it often leads to backing down.


 
Most use of force models start with something like "mere presence", the idea that sometimes all it takes is the presence of a cop to deter criminal activity.  For lots of reasons, I don't like including "mere presence" as a use of force -- but this is the sort thing that it does fit.  There are ways to deter violence before it happens.

Often, your response to the initial woofing or bluster will determine the shape of the rest of the encounter.  There's no magic answer for the right way; sometimes the right thing is to stare someone down, other times you bluster right back at them... and, in rarer cases, you ACT then and there.  But a confident bearing, and treating people with simple respect often goes a long way towards preventing a fight.  That biker I mentioned?  In my experience with bikers and gang members, if you start by treating them with basic respect, not like animals or idiots, they respond the same way much more often than not.  Sometimes, you can deflate the bluster; I've got a colleague who's got several years on me (he's retired after a full career with one agency, and waited a few years before coming on my department).  One night, I was pretty sure that I was going to end up killing a guy.  He'd been involved in a domestic dispute (it may or may not have become physical; no clear evidence), and as I'm talking to him, he was getting more and more agitated.  He suddenly started clearing the furniture out of the way, telling me that I was going to have to shoot him.  My partner comes in, and basically pulled the "I'm old enough to be your daddy" card; it got the guy calmed down -- but my partner and I both thought that we were going to be killing someone.


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## still learning (Oct 16, 2007)

Hello,  This was taught to some us? ....when in a sitution...that looks like is getting worst and there are witness around?

Keep hands up or in a NON-threaten way (to protect yourself) palms out.
or to yourself, (ready to defend), NON-threaten way,

Say out loud and take a quick look at the witness...and say out loud..."Hey I am not looking for trouble"  or ...NON-threaten words here...

In case the police comes...you got witness ON YOUR SIDE...hearing you say you didn't want a fight.....( in case a fight broke out)...you will look like the innocent guy here!  or a law suit or someone gets injury or killed!
BE NON-THREATEN...ACT THIS WAY! and...ALWAYS BE READY...

Most of us would prefer to end it with out violence! .....BEST to act Non-threaten!

Our moods or feelings are like "waves" up and down....we get the highs and lows.....keep it in check...........Aloha


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## newGuy12 (Oct 16, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello,  This was taught to some us? ....when in a sitution...that looks like is getting worst and there are witness around?
> 
> Keep hands up or in a NON-threaten way (to protect yourself) palms out.
> or to yourself, (ready to defend), NON-threaten way,
> ...



Right.  I've heard that.  And I think that it is a lot easier to do that for older people.  Young people may (as a general rule), wish to start kicking and punching.  As you get older you see how much is at stake, as has been mentioned.  Its just not worth it (and its no longer thrilling).

Also, as mentioned, I try to avoid being in those positions to begin with.  It can always happen, but, its more likely to happen in some places than others.

Haha --> Also, what one does for a career matters.  The police officer is going to be running into trouble.  That is part of the job.

The worse that happens at my job (I talk on the telephone) is that someone gets upset on the phone.  Until someone masters the technique of giving a punch over the telephone copper, I am safe at my job from assault!


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## MantisStyle21 (Oct 17, 2007)

Being in school, I will take as much as I possibly can, cause I dislike being suspended, even on the street, words are words to me, threaten me all you want, say you're gonna beat my brains into a bloody pulp and I'll just laugh it off and say ok

UNTIL you actually try to act on those threats, I won't retaliate, if they were to act on those threats, they would regret it


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## tempus (Oct 17, 2007)

Actually words can eventually get to you.  I went to an all boys high school.  I was the small geeky kid who played the geek games (*cough dungeons and dragons *cough).  I was picked on all the way up until junior year.  Then in class one day I snapped picked up a desk an launched it one of the football player knocking him over.  I was never bothered again and swore I would never be picked on again.

However, the down side to that type of anger is that now at 37 I am 6ft 220 LBS and when some approaches me I fall into that 16 year old mentality and automatically fall into that conflict mode.  It takes some real self control to remind me that I am not the little guy anymore.  Now with that said, I have never hit anyone and hope to never have to, but if I am cornered all bets are off.


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## SKB (Oct 17, 2007)

jks9199, I'll go with what you said and like Drac said 'You beat me to it!' Please re-read his post. If a LEO says they are going to do somthing odds are they can do what it is they are saying!!! Not just physically but legaly. I hate when people tell me I can't do something which by law I can! 

Also when someone starts yelling and such at you there is a good chance they are trying to see how you will take it. I agree with the idea of them looking to see if you fit the victim role. Each situation is diffrent but alot of the time I find snapping back or just telling them to shut up works. Sounds simple but a calm, "I aint taking your crap", SHUT UP works. Kind of throws the other guy off and he either has to escalate the situation or back down.


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 17, 2007)

Yes,I'm the guy who was threatened at work.Exactly;how much force to use against someone who is really baad without killing him,depends on where you hit him,and with how much force.Some of us realize our full potential.I was merely trying to find out exactly what rights a person has to defend him/herself?If I absolutely had no choice it would be real ugly,because I would have to go nuttso on this dude to stop him, then later all his friends would be after/harassing me and my family.What the hell can a person really do these days to defend hisself?


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## MJS (Oct 17, 2007)

Brian S said:


> The age old advice of "run away," "avoidance and awareness," and such is solid advice in my opinion, but some people simply are not geared that way.
> 
> Whather it be someone picking on you everyday, verbally abusing you, or an attempted assault. How much would you take?
> 
> ...


 
Nice thread!:ultracool  To answer the first part of your question.  As difficult as it is, as far as the verbal abuse goes, IMO, I think the best policy is to learn to ignore it.  The person giving the abuse will thrive on seeing you get upset, frustrated, etc., and keep going.  Ignoring them will make them lose interest.  

Physical or the threat of physical abuse...well, thats a different story.  Attempting to leave the area or defuse the situation is a good option, but if thats not possible, I'm not going to be someones punching bag.


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## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2007)

qwksilver61 said:


> Yes,I'm the guy who was threatened at work.Exactly;how much force to use against someone who is really baad without killing him,depends on where you hit him,and with how much force.Some of us realize our full potential.I was merely trying to find out exactly what rights a person has to defend him/herself?If I absolutely had no choice it would be real ugly,because I would have to go nuttso on this dude to stop him, then later all his friends would be after/harassing me and my family.What the hell can a person really do these days to defend hisself?


 
There are several threads that discuss the issues of the use of force, up to and including deadly force.  It's quite bluntly not productive to rehash all of those discussions here; it's been said & done at length there.

You have the right to use only that force which is reasonably necessary to defend yourself or another person from an attack; you can't kill someone for tickling you with a feather duster anymore than hitting someone with a feather duster when they're holding a gun on you makes sense.  (Unless you're Harpo Marx.)  Some states may require you to retreat, others don't.  

And, in the end, it's always better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


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