# Kung Fu Forms.



## arnisador (Dec 26, 2001)

I know that some forms of kung fu have as few as three empty hand forms (e.g. many variations of wing chun), and many styles of kung fu have dozens of forms (e.g. bak fu pai, at least according to http://www.tigerkungfu.com/system/faq.htm#2.5 which lists 36 solo empty hand forms, 45 weapon forms, plus two-person forms). Most karate systems have between 8 and 20 empty hand forms but there seems to be a much wider variation in the number of forms required in kung fu and the number of required forms is often much higher.

Why?

To a certain extent I think there is a southern (fewer forms)/northern (more forms) bias--as a general rule or trend, not without exceptions--but I wonder if those who practice a style with many forms would comment on the benefits and costs? More techniques learned but less time spent practicing each is the obvious trade-off, I suppose.


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## Chiduce (Mar 13, 2002)

I think that it is not the number of forms themselves as much as it is the number of movements in each form itself, as was stated in the last post. The single change palm in baguazhang consist's of as little as 13 movements! The basic kung fu can have as many as 175 movements for one form! Shaolin Kung Fu, Hehu Quan has 40 movements; Polian Zhang 38; Luowang 18 Zhang 20; and Shaolin Louhan Shiba Zhang 108 movements! Thus, mastery of just one long form would develop as variation into an infinite number of technique applications for training and combative analogies! Sincerely, in Humility; Chiduce!


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## arnisador (Mar 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *Thus, mastery of just one long form would develop as variation into an infinite number of technique applications for training and combative analogies! *



Thanks for the points of information, and I agree with you that a single form could be enough! It was common for senior karateka in Okinawa to know perhaps three forms. My gut feeling is that less is more--how could one master and be able to implement 40 long forms? Still, I'd like to hear from more kung fu people who practice a great many forms as to what benefits they perceive from this training.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 19, 2002)

Only posting here to bring the form up again.I know there have been a number of new people on the list who might be able to give some insight into
this.
With full respect,
Shadow


:asian:


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## Battousai (Mar 19, 2002)

My school is japanese in origin and we have lots of kata. I think more kata equals more insight into motion. But having indepth knowledge of only a couple is really good too. 
 When you try to figure out the self defense within every type of motion, katas are increased to try to approximate all motion. So more katas are better, if the students have time to look within each one. 
 Ofcourse looking at all possiblilty within motion is a lifetimes work. I would like to have lots of kata to study over a lifetime, instead of the same stuff all the time.


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## disciple (Apr 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> how could one master and be able to implement 40 long forms?  *



I am no kung fu master myself, but as far as I know in kung fu (especially chinese kung fu) forms/sequence is to improve each technique (in the sense that techniques are punch, block, kick, etc, and sequences are combination of techniques). The more you practice sequences, the better your techniques get. As for implementation, it doesn't neccessarily means we use one or more sequences continuously, but rather combination of parts of sequences used accordingly to situation.
So, as posted above, more forms means less time spent practicing the same sequences, but still it means practicing techniques nonetheless. I think the number of sequences or techniques doesn't really matter then.


salute

:asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 12, 2002)

I recently bought The Secrets of Phoenix-Eye Fist Kung Fu : The Art of Chuka Shaolin by Cheong Cheng Leong and Mark V. Wiley.

The book has an appendix listing the forms:

_kai san chien_                opening the mountain
_er shih sze tien_             twenty-four points, number one
_er shih sze tien_             twenty-four points, number two
_hu chao chien_                tiger claw, ascending tiger
_hu chao chien_                tiger claw, descending tiger
_loong hu chien_              dragon and tiger
_ta choong koong_           stamping inside, the palace being surrounded
_mei hua chien_                plum blossom
_lien huang tuei_              continuous kicks
_tong tze pai kwan yin_    boy paying respects to the goddess of mercy
_yin yan er sien ku_           two positive ane negative heavenly ladies
_ta ooh li_                          strength performance
_shih pa lohan chien_        eighteen hands of the lohan
_foong yen tin sun chien_  phoenix-eye fist guarding the mountain
_shih ta hsing hsian_         ten animals fighting movements

The repeated names are in the original. Also listed are two two-person empty hand forms (both named _kung sow twee chai_), seven two-person weapons forms, and one two-person pole form (_kung twee chai_).


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## theneuhauser (Apr 17, 2002)

it seems to me that the brilliance in the many forms or sets in martial arts is their variation. like shadow boxing forms should prepare you physically for many different situations. while an early form might teach you a specific movement,(leg sweep for example),the same movement should be repeated from a different perspective. with either leg, retreating or advancing, high and low. scientificlly, this practice facilitates the muscle memory that allows you to apply the techniques of your style in many different environments. the basics are most important, the forms should be a way to develop oneself further. there should be many in a system so that one avoids becoming a MA robot with pre programmed combinations. forms are the "art" in martial art.       with respect, this is my own opinion


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## LanceWildcat1 (Jul 6, 2002)

Many of the forms I have learned started out as a short, simple form.  As you advance in rank/experience, you take many of these simple forms and add movement's to them-as well as learn new forms that do not require some of the previously learned Kata/DM/Pinans.  As you gain competence with a form, you add movement's to it.


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## ECYili (Jul 7, 2002)

To me, I think less is more.  Most masters regardless of either Karate, Kung Fu, TKD or whatever will say you pick maybe 3 or 4 techniques and you master those and be able to use those against any attack.  You also gotta look at what the forms, kata are trying to teach.  Each one may be trying to teach a certain strategy, technique,stance or feeling.  Then some may try to teach blending different technques, strategies together.  But my feeling is that if even if only know a few forms REALLY well you'll be able to flow from one to the other seemlessly and without thought against any attack.

Just my thoughts

Dan


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## arnisador (Jul 7, 2002)

I feel as you do, *ECYili*. I do wonder what case the proponents of a great many forms would make for doing 40+ forms.


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## LanceWildcat1 (Jul 7, 2002)

arnisador:
I feel as you do, ECYili. I do wonder what case the proponents of a great many forms would make for doing 40+ forms.


Our style starts out with 5 or 6 forms that you learn first.  Then, you take those  5 or 6 forms and build on each of them.  It makes it easy to learn.  I suppose that if you considered each individual form that you added to, you'd have a lot of different forms to tackle.  Fortunately, what we are doing is taking forms that we already know and adding a few move's, one at a time, until you have a few long forms that you can use bits and pieces of, or the whole form, as needed. 
Lance Hyatt:asian:


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## theneuhauser (Jul 7, 2002)

yeah, while the shear number "40" seems like so much material. in the northern mantis schools there are quite a few forms when you add them all up, but its really not all that much material in our case. basically, we had only 7 forms before the senior student level, and then that number doubles after that. the first 7 are principally similar in many ways, which is great. after that, the the variety from other cma's begins to creep into the advanced stuff.

even though that only adds up to 14 forms there were also 5 lower level weapons forms. and many more after senior level.
then our instructor added a bunch of others stuff, like hand to hand sets, and alot of internal ma's all of it starts to add up. 

but if we are talking about strictly empty hand forms, it seems that in the old fashion, many northern schools would introducesome of the principles as a very short form (just 3 or 4 or 5) actions and later it would all roll over into the complete, longer versions. ive seen some northern mantis reports that talked about practicing forms with names that i had never heard before, and actually they were just breakdowns of movements i knew. such as the large windmill or crushing steps, they would be further dissected, im glad that we never did that. :shrug: 

i am making no sense here, i think.
let me clarify. Many movements in CMA's are unique and take alot of development before they can actually be used. (white crane is a good example). and because many of those arts stress the power, balance, and especially the flow in a form, it takes on an approach like a dancing school might. dancers will learn the steps, then learn the dance. for a dancer, it would be a lot harder to learn a complicated ballet sequence if it was step by step "do this, now step here, now raise your arms", so even though one might be learning one act in a performance, its all those short forms that are brought together to create the one.

im going to stop here as i am convinced that this post was as close to useless as one can get after typing three paragraphs. its early, and someone threw theresa and i some kind of surprise wedding shower last night. i almost never drink alcohol, they made me do it, now im fearing for my lost brain cells:mst:


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## LanceWildcat1 (Jul 7, 2002)

I think that theneuhauser summed it up well.  It works for many, many things in life, not only MA's.  We learn the same way in school when it comes to some subjects.  You get the basic's down, and then proceed to learn more and more complex ideas and concepts as you advance.  In the MA's, it is especially effective, I feel. 
Lance Hyatt


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## arnisador (Jul 7, 2002)

I didn't realize the forms were added too so that there aren't as many as it seems! The ballet analogy makes sense. Thanks!


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## theneuhauser (Jul 7, 2002)

thanks, guys, but i still say my post was useless!!!


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## Matt Stone (Jul 9, 2002)

First, there is a difference between sets/waza and forms/kata (sorry, but after living in Japan for so long, my memory has faded on the Chinese terms for these things...).

Some Chinese arts list sets as forms, thus the number of "forms" seems inordinately high.  Xingyi normally has between 2 and 4 forms, but if you include each separate posture as a form, and each animal shape as a form (rather than the sub-section of a larger form as is proper) then the number goes up by 5 - 12.  Bagua, likewise, normally has only a few forms, but if you were to count each section of a form _as_ a form, then you count 8 sets in one form as 8 forms...

Ick.  :erg:

However, there _are_ some Chinese styles that really _do_ have that many forms...  Why?   Often just for history's sake - forms that were learned from teachers long dead, and were kept in order to keep that teacher's contributions alive.  Kind of like having an antique book, long out of date and unpublished, possibly in a foreign or dead language, in your library.  You own it, you keep and cherish it, but it serves little use other than a rememberance of days past.

As for my understanding of Okinawan karate, it was the standard that a karateka only knew a few forms, and from their study was gained great insight.  Collections of forms developed after the 1920s, when Okinawan arts migrated to mainland Japan.  Some forms were intended for lifelong study, others were not.  Ultimately, the purposes behind many of the forms were completely forgotten, and students became teachers without knowing the real reason behind their practice.  Welcome to modern era martial arts and the anti-forms debate.

Anyway...



> *...but as far as I know in kung fu (especially chinese kung fu)...*



Is there another kind of kung fu that I don't know about?  I wasn't aware that the Chinese words "kung fu" were commonly used to indicate non-Chinese martial methods by non-Chinese speaking people...  Sorry to be sarcastic here, but there is no such thing as "especially Chinese kung fu," as there is only Chinese kung fu...  Anything else is simply something else that has been misnamed.



> *I think that it is not the number of forms themselves as much as it is the number of movements in each form itself, as was stated in the last post. The single change palm in baguazhang consist's of as little as 13 movements! The basic kung fu can have as many as 175 movements for one form!*



It seems I am destined to always disagree with Chiduce...  The movements of a form are not commonly referenced with the exception to Taijiquan, and then only to distinguish between compulsory forms in wushu competition.  I have never heard of a 13 movement Bagua form, or a 175 movement something else form...  Separate postures within a form are named, but not numbered.  The only other numbered reference, beyond Taiji, that I have heard of have been the 108 movement wooden dummy form from Wing Chun.  There could be more (I'm not ruling it out completely), but I'm not aware of it as a common practice.  I don't think that this is what most martial styles are doing when they list their forms, though...  It would be far too cumbersome to attempt to do something like this, as, like Chiduce pointed out, there develops an infinite variation on minor techniques, and what you call a movement and what I call a movement would easily be different...

Just my take.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai:  :samurai:


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## arnisador (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> * Is there another kind of kung fu that I don't know about? I wasn't aware that the Chinese words "kung fu" were commonly used to indicate non-Chinese martial methods by non-Chinese speaking people... Sorry to be sarcastic here, but there is no such thing as "especially Chinese kung fu," as there is only Chinese kung fu... Anything else is simply something else that has been misnamed.
> *



One often hears of Vietnamese kung fu (e.g., the Vietnamese snake style) or Malaysian kung fu (e.g., Phoenix-eye fist, _Chuka Shaolin_), for example--arts that are clearly kung fu but that have been practiced in a nearby country to which they migrated for long enough that they are considered to be that country's "kung fu" now. Sometimes the term _kuntao_ is applied to such styles.

Thanks for your interesting post. I still don't think I have a full answer to my original question but I have many more perspectives from which to view it now! Saving anything from an older master sounds plausible.

Still: What are the advantages that accrue? I'd think I'd be _less_ able to respond to an attack from having _too_ many options.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *One often hears of Vietnamese kung fu (e.g., the Vietnamese snake style) or Malaysian kung fu (e.g., Phoenix-eye fist, Chuka Shaolin), for example--arts that are clearly kung fu but that have been practiced in a nearby country to which they migrated for long enough that they are considered to be that country's "kung fu" now. Sometimes the term kuntao is applied to such styles.*



I know of those...  Heard 'em before, but I have to say that I doubt that, like the terms _kali_ and _dumog_ from FMA, those terms are used to a great extent in the country from which those arts herald...  The Japanese can read and understand the characters for kung fu, and they know what they mean when they read them, but they still don't commonly refer to their own indiginous arts by foreign terms.



> *Still: What are the advantages that accrue? I'd think I'd be less able to respond to an attack from having too many options. *



Illustration, I guess?  Multiple variations on a theme?  In Yiliquan, we have the Eight Shapes (which form the core of our system and teach the essential theories and applications), basic and advanced Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Baguazhang forms, as well as Baixingquan forms.  Top this off with our primary and ancillary weapons forms, and we have quite the cornucopia to choose from (8 Shapes, 6 Internals, 4 primary weapons, 6 ancillary weapons, 5 Baixing forms = 29 forms!).

Ultimately, only a handful are necessary...  The others provide "homework" problems.  Think about it - when you were in high school math class, you learned a theorem and then had to work, what, 50 - 100 problems to drill the ideas into your head.  Forms aren't necessarily so different, at least to my method of thinking.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai:  :samurai:


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## chufeng (Jul 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Matt's analogy to "homework" is appropriate for our system.
Truth is, regardless of style, you will only MASTER one or two forms in your life...the lessons learned from mastering a single form, however, can be applied to all other forms.

As most systems do, YiLiQuan starts with fairly basic movements in the "beginner" forms...BUT those lessons are carried forward in every subsequent form learned (this is where "some" schools fall short...they don't build on the basics but move into more advanced material without having a solid foundation...hence, they can't fight very well (notice I said "some" schools, so don't flame me for this)).

At the senior levels of YiLiQuan, if one chooses NOT to teach...it is NOT uncommon for the senior to select one or two advanced forms and focus on them...perfectly OK...But if one chooses to teach, then the other forms must be trained continuously in order to pass them on...of course, when one teaches, one learns much more about the system...even then, the senior will usually emphasize one of the major systems in his/her own training...some prefer the XingYiQuan "feeling," others the PaKuaQang "feeling." ... and it is apparent in the interpretation of movements within the other forms they practice...

All of that being said, I say LESS IS MORE...that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

:asian:
chufeng


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## 7starmantis (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> One often hears of Vietnamese kung fu (e.g., the Vietnamese snake style) or Malaysian kung fu (e.g., Phoenix-eye fist, Chuka Shaolin), for example--arts that are clearly kung fu but that have been practiced in a nearby country to which they migrated for long enough that they are considered to be that country's "kung fu" now. Sometimes the term kuntao is applied to such styles. *



That is true, but I must say that Kung Fu is a CMA. To say Vietnamese Kung Fu is like saying Russian American Money. The money is either Russian, or american. The term Vietnamese Kung Fu would be a Vietnamese Chinese Martial Art. That doesn't fit, so I would say that it is mis-named, or more apply, mis-understood. It is the same way that people outside of martial arts call all martial arts Karate. "So you take Karate eh?" No, I study Kung Fu. I think that its the same thing, someone a little misinformed, thats all. 

My own humble opinion, thats all.
7sm


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## arnisador (Aug 14, 2002)

I have mixed feelings about the approrpiateness of saying "Vietnamese kung fu" though I certainly grant that they wouldn't use the literal term _kung fu_ (any more than they'd say "Vietnamese"). Kung Fu is now English for CMA, I think!

How many forms are there in 7 star praying mantis?


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## 7starmantis (Aug 14, 2002)

If my memory serves me correctly, including weapons forms there would be right about 53. Differnet clans teach differnet ways, some combine a few, but going through my head, thats what I counted. I will have to ask my Sifu for an "official" count now, you have made me curious!  Again though, that would be my Sifu's count. Differnet clans claim different numbers.

And I agree about Kung FU being basically the english term for CMA. I guess Wu Shu would better describe Kung Fu. In its traditional deffinition.

7sm


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## YiLiJingLei (Aug 16, 2002)

Forms training is useful practice for martial artists when used as a context to practice applications with training partners. The instructor has to understand the form(s) they teach on many levels for this to be practical training. The instructor needs to be able to present the forms with applications according to the principles (of power/structure/technique) and strategy (timing & entry) of the system they teach. 
   In this sense, even boxing gyms train in "forms", as a coach will teach various combinations for the fighter to drill, solo & with a sparring partner. 
   Forms training is impractical when they are only presented as a pattern of movements to memorize, just for the sake of tradition or simple coordination. If the teacher of any given school teaches forms as an athletic curiosity, without showing how & why they work according to the principles & strategies of a given system, they are doing a great disservice to thier art & thier students. Meaning, if the forms practiced look radically different from the way that sparring or self defense techniques are applied, then the teacher doesn't really understand thier own art. 
Teachers to avoid: 
   Example 1): Famous Wushu coaches who teach dozens of precise & flamboyant forms for competition, then teach sloppy kick-boxing for "San Shou"/self defense...
  Example 2): Commercial Martial Arts "McDojos" where dozens of forms are taught only as an empty tradition to uphold, as some kind of combination of vague, mysterious coordination drills, then for self-defense training, presenting a half-baked version of Muay Thai & grappling methods presented from what they saw on the last UFC video tape...   
   Example 3): Secretive, public martial arts schools that claim to present one art (such as Shaolin Chuan Fa/Kung Fu, for example), with several rambling, clumsy forms, some goofy weapons twirling, then teach applications & self defense drills with something completely different (Kempo or Hapkido, for example)... 
    The whole point is, train to use what you learn. Only learn at a school that is able to teach the practical interpretation of the forms of the system--the forms should look like the self defense drills, the self defense techniques should look like how the practicioners spar--it needs to be comprehensive. The more forms that are expected to be memorized is an indication of that much less time you will spend learning how to use them. A warning light should go off in your head if the teacher starts telling you he can teach you a few dozen different forms, for so much $$. If you have no idea how to practically utilize the movements & principles of the forms you learn in a system, quit the school & find someone that does. Don't waste your time memorizing forms if the self-defense applications taught are totally different--the forms teach proper technique, but only if the teacher knows what thier used for. If the teacher substitutes some kind of kickboxing drills for the practical content at the school, and the forms you learn are a complete mystery,  you have 2 options if you really want to understand an art: 
   1) Quit the school & find a teacher that knows how to teach a traditional system & how it's used 
   or
   2) Quit the school & find a good boxing gym or Muay Thai stable. 
   Don't do half-assed forms, then half-assed kickboxing--that is a contradictory waste of time, you spin your wheels & go nowhere fast, other than inflate a false ego. Either do one or the other, and learn how to use SOMETHING. This is how real martial arts (especially Chinese Martial Arts) are degenerating into a mish-mash of sloppy kickboxing--From teachers that don't understand the art they teach, offering dozens of forms that mean nothing to no one, then "supplimenting" applications with something completely different that they (think they) can use. if you need proof, go to any regional or national open martial arts tournament--if you don't see the depressing difference between the "Flash & Trash" forms & sloppy sparring, then you haven't been to a good enough martial arts school yet to know the difference, so keep looking.


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## YiLiJingLei (Aug 16, 2002)

Hi, Matt & 'Chiduce', 
   Just seeking some clarification...

Chiduce said: 


> ...The single change palm in baguazhang consist's of as little as 13 movements...


 
Yiliquan1/Matt said: 


> ...seems I...always disagree with Chiduce... The movements of a form are not commonly referenced with the exception to Taijiquan, and then only to distinguish between compulsory forms in wushu competition. I have never heard of a 13 movement Bagua form, or a 175 movement something else form... Separate postures within a form are named, but not numbered. The only other numbered reference, beyond Taiji, that I have heard of have been the 108 movement wooden dummy form from Wing Chun...



   Chiduce was referencing the Dan Huan Zhang, Bagua's Single Palm Change, which is sometimes referenced as one "posture" (also read as "series of movements") in most any particular style of Bagua's group of "8 Mother Palms" (Ba Mu Zhang). 
Since Bagua's emphasis is on a continuity of motion, each one of those 8 Palm Changes within a Bagua form consists of several sub-catagories of movements, or "phases" within a "posture", each one of those "sub-phases" have thier own name, just like Taiji "postures".

  Example: Dan Huan Zhang (Single Palm Change) can be presented as only 3 movements/postures/phases: 
  1) Crouching Tiger
  2) Black Tiger Enters Cave
  3) Green Dragon Whips Tail

or, in contrast, Dan Huan Zhang can be also presented in 8 movements/postures/phases: 
  1) Close Door, Cover Elbow
  2) Lean to Inqire direction
  3) Crouching Tiger
  4) Lazy Dragon Wipes Gate
  5) Black Tiger Enters Cave
  6) Hide Flower Under Leaf
  7) Wild Goose Leaves Flock
  8) Green Dragon Stretches Claw

I can easily see how this could be broken down into further movements based opon the complexity of each different coil & twist, but really, whatever it takes for the student to understand the nuances, principles (Jin/Jir), and some potential applications of each piece of the "Posture" or Palm Change. 

Also, most old Shaolin forms have a seperate poetic name for each specific sequence of a movement or 2, just like the Taiji forms. I think the names of the postures are just more well known in Taiji because Taiji is so widely practiced. 

I hope this helps foster more understanding...:asian:


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## 7starmantis (Jan 19, 2004)

I thought maybe this to be a good time to re-hatch this thread. I was reading some other threads and saw a refrence to this one. I think while it may be hard to remember and play all the forms, it is certainly worth knowing all the different ways each technique can be interpreted for application. I think the large numbre of forms is to help students understand differing applications to different techniques. Forms=Application in my school, so the more forms you know, normally the better fighter you are.

7sm


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## Matt Bernius (Jan 19, 2004)

The one thing that I have read anyone explicity state is that another function of forms were to be a catalog of a system. They contained technique and concept. Therefore not only were they in theory teaching one how to fight, but also were used as a method to nonverbally transfer the concepts of a system for future teachers.

As such the real value to day to day training that forms provide is the ability to take a movement or series of movements and work them within and beyond the base context of the form.

From a teaching perspective, you should have all the necessary lessons plans by working to "decode" and disassemble each form into it's component ideas and technqiues.

- Matt


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## 7starmantis (Jan 20, 2004)

Yes, many, many people do forms but are stumped by how they would teach the combat application to said form. I think that is a waste of time. We work very hard to teach the application to *every* move in every form. We do drills with them, and even get graded on tests for using them in our fighting.

The forms are to increase your fighting. In my system at least, the focus of the art is fighting. Everything you do should increase your ability to fight, if not, it isn't worth doing.

7sm


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## Tony (Feb 6, 2004)

From what I know of my system I have learnt about 9 forms so far and there are still more to learn. But once you know a form and it can feel so nice when  the moves are flowing!


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## RHD (Feb 14, 2004)

Hello, new to the board, interesting discussion.
Hung Gar has origionally 1 form called Gung Gee fook Fu Kuen/I-Shaped Taming Tiger Fist.  Currently there are 4 "pillar" forms generally accepted by various lineages and schools as the core forms of the system, though it can vary slightly.  These are:  Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen, Fu Hok Sheung Ying Kuen/Tiger Crane Combined Fist, Ng Ga Kuen/Five Animal Fist, and Tit Sin Kuen/Iron Wire Fist.  All of the weapons forms are borrowed, though single ended long pole, tiger fork, and butterfly knives are closely associated with the system and may be "older" and closer to its founders on an acquisition timeline.  Some schools have many, many more forms in thier curriculums, from several other systems and tons of weapons.
In reality, though I've been practicing Hung Gar for 14 years, the only forms I practice regularly are the first two pillars, and the Iron Wire.  Even these I will break down and focus only on parts of them at a time because forms training is not my focus.  Also, it is pretty easy to see where even these three are made from combinations of shorter, related forms.
I've noted that Kung Fu forms tend to be much longer than say those of Okinawan Karate.  For example, I have friends that practice RyuKyu Kempo, and they have two or three times as many empty hand forms, but they are much shorter, and much less complex in movement.  
Another interesting point is that most kung fu systems seemed to acquire more forms in the last 60 years or so.  I think this has a direct relationship with commercialism and the reality of guns being more prevelant.
Mike


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## 7starmantis (Feb 14, 2004)

Welcome to the boards! Nice to have you here!

Thats odd, in my experience I have found that most japanese arts tend to have many less forms than my system of kung fu. I agree with them being shorter and less intricate as well, but most systems I have seen have many less forms than my system does. 

7sm


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## RHD (Feb 14, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Welcome to the boards! Nice to have you here!
> 
> Thats odd, in my experience I have found that most japanese arts tend to have many less forms than my system of kung fu. I agree with them being shorter and less intricate as well, but most systems I have seen have many less forms than my system does.
> 
> 7sm


Sorry 7*, I meant only in relation to what I practice.  You are correct that most kung fu systems have more forms than Japanese.  However, I do stand by my assesment that most kung fu systems had less forms a generation or two back, at least amongst the Southern styles.  Choy Li Fut being the exception.
Mike


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## 7starmantis (Feb 14, 2004)

Yeah, I can agree with that, although aome still had quite a few. The fact that some have been created in the last 100 years or so is proof to me of an alive system that is growing and "evolving".

7sm


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## SK101 (May 3, 2008)

Thanks for the points of information, and I agree with you that a single form could be enough! It was common for senior karateka in Okinawa to know perhaps three forms. My gut feeling is that less is more--how could one master and be able to implement 40 long forms? Still, I'd like to hear from more kung fu people who practice a great many forms as to what benefits they perceive from this training.

I would say the number of forms or other material really is based on your amount of practice. A student who only makes it in for a couple of classes per week and doesn't practice at home may be very well off with a small amount of material. A monk who trains several hours daily may feel comfortable with 100 forms since they can get in enough repetition to go from concept to application.


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