# KT:"When pure knuckles meet pure flesh..."



## Clark Kent (Aug 2, 2007)

*"When pure knuckles meet pure flesh..."
By Carol Kaur - Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:12:56 GMT
Originally Posted at: KenpoTalk*
====================

"When pure knuckles meet pure flesh...that's pure karate"

- SGM Parker


How many folks out there spar in class without pads or protective gear?


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## 14 Kempo (Aug 2, 2007)

Clark Kent said:


> *"When pure knuckles meet pure flesh..."*
> *By Carol Kaur - Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:12:56 GMT*
> *Originally Posted at: KenpoTalk*
> ====================
> ...


 
We do, on occasion, usually only the black belts however, sometimes the brown belts. Yes, it makes for more bruises. I even had a bruised chest for some three weeks from taking a knee strike, but that's life. Would be a heck of a lot worse in a street situation.

Safety is still number one. We aren't there to kill eachother, but the fact is that we're training to fight. There is no secret that even hitting a person, when you've never done that, can be a painful experience. Professional boxers that train hours upon hours and use fairly large, padded gloves, break their hands.

Anyway, I believe it is a necessary training experience, not to be taken lightly, and not to  be overlooked. Afterall, you will not have gloves on in the street, nor will your opponent.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 2, 2007)

To follow up a little on this, I have to say that things have changed over the decades from when I used to train in empty-hand arts.  Then we used to spar full(ish) contact with no gloves and no paddng other than footballers shin pads.  

How things have changed .  Is it for the better?  I really can't say.  All I will say that taking and giving 'unbuffered' kicks and punches did not seem unnatural at the time and meant that I did not flinch the one time I needed to use what I knew.


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## Hand Sword (Aug 3, 2007)

In my beginnings we always did. There was no protection. Then it became optional and mandatory. It was then that I remember some showing up to fight in so much "armor"  they could barely move.-lol.


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## Doc (Aug 5, 2007)

Clark Kent said:


> *"When pure knuckles meet pure flesh..."
> By Carol Kaur - Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:12:56 GMT
> Originally Posted at: KenpoTalk*
> ====================
> ...


I've heard all the stories, and done all of the dumb things coming up in the arts from the late fifties. I came originally from a traditional Chinese school where equipment was never used, and the emphasis was on conditioning weapons through training.

In my heavy sparring years, we never wore anything, not even a cup. Putting on shin guards or wearing a mouthpiece was considered soft while I was training and banging with some of the best that ever competed. I watched prominent players loose teeth, testicles, and bend fingers and toes the wrong way.

As I got older, (and presumably wiser) I slowly began to finally protect myself. First came a mouthpiece to protect some very expensive dental work. Than a cup as I saw a competitor who would violate the tournament rules because he didn't believe in cups, loose a testicle. My feet took a beating working out on all those concrete floors and no mats, and my feet became so flat the doctor ordered me into shoes. Not being able to afford time away and scrapping on the job got me into knee pads.

But the kicker was Ed Parker. He said wear everything you need to wear to protect your body for the long term. You have to use it for a long time. Yeah, I heard all the "wise" guys and their neanderthal logic for punishing the crap out of your body, and believed it for awhile myself. "You're not going to be wearing a cup if you get into a fight on the street" was a favorite 'brilliant' observation. Choosing to train for contact and having it happen to occur sometime in your life are quite different.

Let's see now; boxer wear headgear, mouthguards, handwraps and gloves when training contact. Football players wear mouthguards, all the pads, and a helmet when they train contact. Even baseball players put on a cup and helmet for batting practice, and none of us are less manly (except Carol) for protecting ourselves when we know in advance we're going to engage in contact. Having someone possibly kick at your groin perhaps one day in a confrontation, is a long way from an intentional act over and over again, while training to defend yourself.

I tell my students, as much as the training is important to you, staying healthy for making and enjoying a living, longevity with your family, and simply staying as healthy as you can for as long as you can is the most important thing in life. To that end, I let them wear every pad under the sun if they feel they need it, even though I only mandate a mouthguard and a cup (male and female).

They don't feel any less prepared, and telling them to NOT wear protection when they train because they MIGHT get in a fight one day and won't have it, is as totally rediculous as it gets. Conversely, maybe we should start wearing helmets because we might fall down one day. Some things just don't make sense, unfortunately in hindsight. I just want to make sure I don't pass my own stupidity on to my students.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 6, 2007)

all I can say is all my training has always been without pads.
Yes I let students  (teens and a few adults) spar with pads but I like the adults to know what it feels like to get hit with a fist so I know they will not cower and curl into a ball if it happens on the street


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## Sukerkin (Aug 6, 2007)

I think *Docs* post above is full of hard earned good advice :tup:.  

Expressing the inherent lack of wisdom in the concept of getting banged about every week in training, to prepare for the might-never-happen time when you have to fight for real, was a facet that needed bringing into the discussion :rei:.

As I said in my own post above, I, like *shadowchaser*, do think that there is value in at least some un-padded sparring tho'.  Maintaining your body over the long term is important, I agree but, at base level, we train in a fighting art and part of that is learning what actually being *hit* feels like.

If nothing else it prevents some of the mental shock effect of being struck - that "I can't believe you just hit me!" delay could be the pause that makes a bad situation deteriorate even further because you don't start reacting quickly enough.  It also allows you to react appropriately e.g. if someone hits you you can gauge the seriousness of the situation because you have something to compare it to.


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## Doc (Aug 6, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I think *Docs* post above is full of hard earned good advice :tup:.
> 
> Expressing the inherent lack of wisdom in the concept of getting banged about every week in training, to prepare for the might-never-happen time when you have to fight for real, was a facet that needed bringing into the discussion :rei:.
> 
> ...



Well said sir, but I hope I didn't give any impressions that everything we do is in pads. In fact it's just the opposite. Our method of training demands physical contact and the experience of the methodology can be extremely physically demanding.

But the questions was about "freesparring," and that's a different animal as I understand most do it. For us the cup and mouthguard are mandated along with specialized open finger gloves. Some opt for forearms guards, and I admit they are needed as we access specific parts of the body repeatedly.

But for a guy with a wife and kids who has to go to work in the morning and fight in the street, if he tells me he needs pads, I say "puttem' on." In some of the contact drills to counter grappling, I mandate females wear body armor, and after awhile, the guys put them on as well. It doesn't take long.

My point was simply going in and banging with no pads as a matter of course for training wasn't very smart and will catch up with "career" martialists. 

Mr. Parker told me an interesting point of view about the physicality of training and how it should be monitored and modulated. He talked about boxers, (something he himself trained in), and how most boxers who sustained injury did so in training, not in the ring. 

He said, if you're training for a confrontation, most people IF they had one would do so maybe once, or twice in their lifetime. Balance that with the potential for injury on a "maybe," with the "certainty" of training injuries and it doesn't add up. 

He said, "If your training causes you to become reguarly injured, than you'd probably be better off just having the confrontation and do the best you can. 

*"Training has to be realistic enough to have benefit. But if the physical negatives of your style of training begins to outweigh the potential of reality, than you've gone too far." - Ed Parker Sr.*


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## ninjatradingcompany (Aug 6, 2007)

When pure knuckles meet pure flesh.....the knuckles win!


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## Doc (Aug 6, 2007)

ninjatradingcompany said:


> When pure knuckles meet pure flesh.....the knuckles win!



Cute, but not necessarily true.


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## Mr. E (Aug 8, 2007)

ninjatradingcompany said:


> When pure knuckles meet pure flesh.....the knuckles win!



Define "pure flesh."

Have you ever seen the end result of someone punching someone in the forehead? It is not pretty. Just a quick drop of the jaw at the last micro second and instead of busting someone's nose, you end up with a few broken knuckles. And that can take the fight out of someone real quick.

And then there are cases of people punching people in the face and getting cut by the teeth. Did you happen to know that a _dog's_ mouth is more hygenic than a human's? People have actually died from things like that.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 8, 2007)

Doc said:


> I've heard all the stories, and done all of the dumb things coming up in the arts from the late fifties. I came originally from a traditional Chinese school where equipment was never used, and the emphasis was on conditioning weapons through training.
> 
> In my heavy sparring years, we never wore anything, not even a cup. Putting on shin guards or wearing a mouthpiece was considered soft while I was training and banging with some of the best that ever competed. I watched prominent players loose teeth, testicles, and bend fingers and toes the wrong way.
> 
> ...


 

looks like i just gave you your very first reputation star.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 8, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Define "pure flesh."
> 
> Have you ever seen the end result of someone punching someone in the forehead? It is not pretty. Just a quick drop of the jaw at the last micro second and instead of busting someone's nose, you end up with a few broken knuckles. And that can take the fight out of someone real quick.
> 
> And then there are cases of people punching people in the face and getting cut by the teeth. Did you happen to know that a _dog's_ mouth is more hygenic than a human's? People have actually died from things like that.


 

Think also of punching into a rather large, soft belly.  You can really screw up your wrist in all that flesh...


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## Doc (Aug 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> looks like i just gave you your very first reputation star.



What the hell are those things anyway?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 8, 2007)

Doc said:


> What the hell are those things anyway?


 
heh heh heh.  They are just sort of "high fives" that people give, by giving you rep.  You can check the most recent reps you've received by clicking on "user cp" in the upper left corner.  It will show the latest ten or so reps you received, linked to the post that people repped you on.

You start getting green dots, then lighter green dots, then yellow dots, then a gold star and the dots start over.

Negative reps are red, if someone thinks you said something rediculous.  I personally don't rep unless it's positive.

If you have given out rep to someone, the last ten or so show under the reps you have received.  You give rep by clicking the little balance-scales in the upper right corner of the post.


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## Doc (Aug 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> heh heh heh.  They are just sort of "high fives" that people give, by giving you rep.  You can check the most recent reps you've received by clicking on "user cp" in the upper left corner.  It will show the latest ten or so reps you received, linked to the post that people repped you on.
> 
> You start getting green dots, then lighter green dots, then yellow dots, then a gold star and the dots start over.
> 
> ...


Well I'll be. This computer stuff is fascinating. I always wondered what that was all about.


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## seninoniwashi (Aug 9, 2007)

I think it really depends on the level of the students sparing. I would not by any means encourage a beginning class or even a mid level class to spar padless. As control is gained and as the students bodies are conditioned stronger to take blows, typically with the higher belts I believe pads should be removed. 

Typically there is a chemistry between sparing partners. As two people routinely work with each other they learn how far they can take it comfortably. Control, both physical and mental should be basics taught in all martial art systems .


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## seninoniwashi (Aug 9, 2007)

Clark Kent said:


> How many folks out there spar in class without pads or protective gear?


 
I myself always spar with people for the first time with pads and when feeling comfortable drop the pads. From there level is adjusted with per control and conditioning.


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