# Why do people not understand



## terryl965 (Oct 7, 2012)

I am just writing this because I get it at least twice a month, people saying or asking me if I am WTF certified or they are WTF certified? I guess I just don't get it the WTF sets the rules for Olympic sparring and competition poomsae, they absolutely do not do any type of Black Belt certification. That is done by the KKW, now except I have missed something over the last twenty years and this has changed. 

Why can't people just say the right thing and not argue about this, WTF does not issue BB to anyone. The KKW does and a few other orgs but the KKW is the main source for Olympic TKD.

Sorry off of my soapbox but it just drives me crazy when people say they are WTF certified BB's.


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## arnisador (Oct 7, 2012)

A lot of people probably still think you have to register your hands--or in your case, feet--as deadly weapons. They just don't know.


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 7, 2012)

its no better over here terry. I am constantly asked whether Im an "itf or wtf" black belt. I have a friend who is a second dan "wtf" black belt and I honestly dont think he would know what the kkw even is.


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## terryl965 (Oct 7, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> its no better over here terry. I am constantly asked whether Im an "itf or wtf" black belt. I have a friend who is a second dan "wtf" black belt and I honestly dont think he would know what the kkw even is.



But Ralph that is my problem they cannot be a WTF BB, the WTF does not issue certificates? Guess I am still angry over people way of talking.


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## terryl965 (Oct 7, 2012)

arnisador said:


> A lot of people probably still think you have to register your hands--or in your case, feet--as deadly weapons. They just don't know.



Arni we have a school here in Grand Prairie that tells there people at brown belt she has to take there finger prints and send it off to the CIA for record keeping, because now they are a lethal weapon. My GOD what people believe.


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 7, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> But Ralph that is my problem they cannot be a WTF BB, the WTF does not issue certificates? Guess I am still angry over people way of talking.


I agree totally terry and it frustrates me to no end. I am not a kkw blackbelt yet I know there is no such thing as a wtf blackbelt, so I can never understand that someone who is actually in that system just cant understand.


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## arnisador (Oct 7, 2012)

Wow. People are idiots.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2012)

Been running the school since 1988. Aside from those who trained in the same org and were looking to stay with the same system when the located to my area for school, work, vacation or whatever, with possibly a single exception I never had a prospective student ask or their parenst ask about organizations. 

As a general rule they don't know enough to ask let alone understand any distinctions.


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## chrispillertkd (Oct 7, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> I am just writing this because I get it at least twice a month, people saying or asking me if I am WTF certified or they are WTF certified? I guess I just don't get it the WTF sets the rules for Olympic sparring and competition poomsae, they absolutely do not do any type of Black Belt certification. That is done by the KKW, now except I have missed something over the last twenty years and this has changed.
> 
> Why can't people just say the right thing and not argue about this, WTF does not issue BB to anyone. The KKW does and a few other orgs but the KKW is the main source for Olympic TKD.
> 
> Sorry off of my soapbox but it just drives me crazy when people say they are WTF certified BB's.



You can't expect the general public in America to have any inkling about who does what with regards to Taekwon-Do. If you're dealing with people who have no first hand knowledge of KKW TKD you're lucky they even know the initials WTF stand for anything except internet shorthand. If you're dealing with people who do TKD already then I'm still not surprised. I know more than one KKW instructor who has referred to himself as a "WTF black belt." You can find web sites of people who are KKW certified referring to "WTF Taekwondo," too. 

Heck, for years Kim Un Yong ran the entire TKD show in SK so there was little, in anything, that served to seperate those two bodies. Sure they had distinct roles even then, but it was all run by the same man so it's udnerstandable that people viewed them as one big entity (and you can see from the troubles they have had relating to each other since Kim, Un Yong got removed from office, arrested, and jailed that this wasn't entirely a misplaced view, IMO). 

In all honesty it will be years, if ever, before people use the correct terms when referring to those organizations and that is, largely, their own fault. That being said, there's plenty of better things to be annoyed about 

Pax,

Chris


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 7, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Been running the school since 1988. Aside from those who trained in the same org and were looking to stay with the same system when the located to my area for school, work, vacation or whatever, with possibly a single exception I never had a prospective student ask or their parenst ask about organizations.
> 
> As a general rule they don't know enough to ask let alone understand any distinctions.


Quite true. I train with some third or fourth dans who would not what itf, kkw, wtf etc even mean. Unless you do some research on the net or hang out on forums you just wouldnt know. As Ive said before, my previous instructor (sixth dan) once asked me "whats a kukkiwon?", and he was deadly serious.


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## terryl965 (Oct 7, 2012)

Yes guys but these are not parents or perspective students, these are BB's from other school looking to come to me for training, they have a KKW BB and should know better.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Arni we have a school here in Grand Prairie that tells there people at brown belt she has to take there finger prints and send it off to the CIA for record keeping, because now they are a lethal weapon. My GOD what people believe.



I guess if they don't even know that the CIA is not allowed to operate within the US (legally) they're probably not going to realise just how stupid this is.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2012)

Perhaps a better question. Why does there need to be 2 organizations? 


Can you compete as a BB in a WTF event it you are not a KKW BB?


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## terryl965 (Oct 8, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Perhaps a better question. Why does there need to be 2 organizations?
> 
> 
> Can you compete as a BB in a WTF event it you are not a KKW BB?



Yes and No, the US open you can and it is a rated WTF event but in some othe international event you have top be KKW certified.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 8, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Heck, for years Kim Un Yong ran the entire TKD show in SK



I was thinking you meant Saskatchewan when you wrote SK.  I think you really mean ROK - Republic of Korea :ultracool


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 8, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Arni we have a school here in Grand Prairie that tells there people at brown belt she has to take there finger prints and send it off to the CIA for record keeping, because now they are a lethal weapon. My GOD what people believe.



What would you guess is the real reason for taking fingerprints?  Simply marketing, in order to justify high fee costs, or something else?


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## Cyriacus (Oct 8, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Arni we have a school here in Grand Prairie that tells there people at brown belt she has to take there finger prints and send it off to the CIA for record keeping, because now they are a lethal weapon. My GOD what people believe.


You have got to be kidding Me.
Good lord.

Is this after They buy the $200 wristband as a warning to the general populous that They are a dangerous fighter, and that They shouldnt be messed with for fear of a lethal outcome?
And instead of Beginners, do They have less experienced experts in the words most lethal and effective street combat disciplines, like all the ads Google plops on the side of Martialtalk claim?


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## StudentCarl (Oct 8, 2012)

To me it's an indicator of smoke and mirrors. At a tournament this summer a 4th dan in his 50's told me how proud he was that the people in his organization earned real, certified WTF black belts. I kept a straight face and praised his commitment to training. Afterward I asked some of my seniors about it, and I was told that everyone in that organization 'drinks the same Kool-Aid' the grandmaster feeds them. They do their own events and actively discourage (i.e. blackball) associating with us outsiders.


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## ATC (Oct 8, 2012)

I understand Sir.


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## sopraisso (Oct 8, 2012)

Thank you, guys.
I'm getting plenty of anecdotes to laugh about when the subject comes up around here.
Damn, Terry is complaining about that! I wish I had so many funny stories to tell!


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 8, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> But Ralph that is my problem they cannot be a WTF BB, the WTF does not issue certificates? Guess I am still angry over people way of talking.



Terry, I do not study TKD in any form. I have friends who did. I also remember people talking about getting WTF Certified and KKW certified as well. They would take the WTF test and then get a local certificate from the local master instructor at some large price tag, and then if they paid even more they could get it officially recognized in Korea with the KKW certificate. 

So I think a few bad apples have made it worse.


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## Dana (Oct 8, 2012)

I must admit that it really miffed me when local schools in the ND, SD and MN area would say they were "WTF" certified schools and instructors.  Some even said their gup ranks were WTF certified!  Mostly, they were just clueless and reacting to what their seniors told them.

Not to nit pic, but in the mid to late 1980's, the WTF did actually process dan certificates for a short time, so yah, I am "WTF certified!!"  I've never said that though.  I guess with the KOSM (Kukkiwon Overseas Members) now, some folks can finally say they have KKW-certified schools.

Dana


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## terryl965 (Oct 8, 2012)

Dana said:


> I must admit that it really miffed me when local schools in the ND, SD and MN area would say they were "WTF" certified schools and instructors. Some even said their gup ranks were WTF certified! Mostly, they were just clueless and reacting to what their seniors told them.
> 
> Not to nit pic, but in the mid to late 1980's, the WTF did actually process dan certificates for a short time, so yah, I am "WTF certified!!" I've never said that though. I guess with the KOSM (Kukkiwon Overseas Members) now, some folks can finally say they have KKW-certified schools.
> 
> Dana



Dana it was one year the WYF certified people and then never again and the KKW took over all processing. You can never ever be WTF certified instructor because the KKW is the only org in Seul Korea offering the instructor course for TKD.


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## Dana (Oct 8, 2012)

Hey man, it is one of my pet peeves also.  But you could be a WTF-certified dan for one year!  LOL  I once called a school in my state who advertised WTF certified etc. and such and I told him he was doing false advertising.  He informed me that his GM from Fargo insisted upon it and that conversation was pretty much over.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 9, 2012)

Originally Posted by *Earl Weiss*

Perhaps a better question. Why does there need to be 2 organizations? 




terryl965 said:


> Yes and No, the US open you can and it is a rated WTF event but in some othe international event you have top be KKW certified.



So, the question remains. Clear KKW and WTF are "Sister" orgs. 

Again, why is it neccessary to have 2 orgs?   Since KKW issues rank, (and please correct me if I am wrong) they would be the ones setting technical standards for performance and rank requirements.  Why would these same standards not apply to competition. 

As one group they could choose to have some open competitions. ITF has done this with it's "World Cup" . 

So, anyone have an answer? Does it harken back to the day when KKW certified rank for people doing all sorts of systems but need to have a single set of standards for competition so needed another org. to do this?


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## punisher73 (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm non TKD, but just curious about this. 

If a school is a member of the WTF organization.  And you get your blackbelt through that school, is this where the confusion lays?  You would assume that the blackbelt was WTF since the school was associated with them.  Is it one of those where people are just paying the money and never really ask the questions or assume something?  It just seems weird to me.


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## Jaeimseu (Oct 9, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> I'm non TKD, but just curious about this.
> 
> If a school is a member of the WTF organization.  And you get your blackbelt through that school, is this where the confusion lays?  You would assume that the blackbelt was WTF since the school was associated with them.  Is it one of those where people are just paying the money and never really ask the questions or assume something?  It just seems weird to me.



Schools are not members of the WTF. National governing bodies for sport tkd are members of the WTF.


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## terryl965 (Oct 9, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Originally Posted by *Earl Weiss*
> 
> Perhaps a better question. Why does there need to be 2 organizations?
> 
> ...



Earl basically they wanted to keep the sport aspect seperate from the TKD aspect. Hence came the WTF to guide and keep the sport side growing. The WTF over see's all the National governing bodys that participates in international event and all the way up to the Olympics, World games and so forth.


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## punisher73 (Oct 9, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> Schools are not members of the WTF. National governing bodies for sport tkd are members of the WTF.



That is what confused me.  The local TKD school (doesn't seem to be McDojo) advertises the WTF logo on their site, so I assumed that it was like other MA organizations and that it meant that they were a part of that organization.  No mention of the KKW at all anywhere.

So, if I am a member of the ITF, is that for a national governing body also or indivdual schools?


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 9, 2012)

arnisador said:


> A lot of people probably still think you have to register your hands--or in your case, feet--as deadly weapons. They just don't know.



A college friend (whom I hadn't seen in maybe six years) and I met up with each other some years back and chatted some.  It turns out he had joined the Army, got into the MPs, and had an assignment to a site in Ethiopia.  One day he was working the desk and a man came in to register his hands with the MPs, as deadly weapons, because he said he had a black belt in a martial art.  My friend laughed as he told me the story, since he wasn't so easy to fool.  He made the man show his hands, and his knuckles were not calloused, so he sent the guy away.  Couldn't pull the wool over my friends eyes that easily.  But in the 50s and 60s, such myths were common.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> What would you guess is the real reason for taking fingerprints? Simply marketing, in order to justify high fee costs, or something else?



That question ran through my mind as well.  One has to wonder how the charade has gone on unchallenged for any length of time.  It's kind of sad really.  I fear for the level of teaching since the teacher of the school must have zero respect for her students to pull that on them.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 9, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Earl basically they wanted to keep the sport aspect seperate from the TKD aspect. Hence came the WTF to guide and keep the sport side growing. The WTF over see's all the National governing bodys that participates in international event and all the way up to the Olympics, World games and so forth.



I think it was a Jackie Chan movie where he said something like "I hear the words coming out of your mouth, but don't understand. 
Why is a seperate org. needed to "guide and keep the sport side growing." The KKW could not do this because? Or Conversely the WTF could not do both because? 
Now, I am not trying to be difficult.  Has anyone else ever asked this sort of question. Seems like the elephant in the room.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 9, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> So, if I am a member of the ITF, is that for a national governing body also or indivdual schools?



The ITF has operates differently. The ITF is the International governing body. It regulates both minimum technical standards for rank as well as governs competition. The ITF issues rank certificates. 

Within each country there may be one National Governing Body under the ITF (Sometimes affiliated National Associations as well) that are the recognized members of the ITF. Those National bodies must adhere to the minimum ITF standards and may implement addittional standards as well so long as they do not conflict with ITF regulations. 

Individuals are members of the national Organizations  (or affilliates).


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## chrispillertkd (Oct 9, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Within each country there may be one National Governing Body under the ITF (Sometimes affiliated National Associations as well) that are the recognized members of the ITF. Those National bodies must adhere to the minimum ITF standards and may implement addittional standards as well so long as they do not conflict with ITF regulations.



Well, that depends on which ITF you're talking about. This is an accurate description of what ITF-V does. ITF-C allows multiple national governing bodies per country (called INO's, or Independent National Organizations) as well as individual MO's (Member Organizations which are composed of single DoJang or groups of DoJang usually under a single Master). 

As far as I know, only ITF-NK still allows only one NGB per country.

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 9, 2012)

Mr. Spiller, 

INO, NGB, NA, AA, tomato, potato. Didn't want to gum up the works with 2 much 411. 
And no one would think NK would allow more than one.... Sorry, couldn't help myself.


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## chrispillertkd (Oct 9, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Mr. Spiller,
> 
> INO, NGB, NA, AA, tomato, potato. Didn't want to gum up the works with 2 much 411.



 Master Weiss, yes the acronyms get to be a little much after a while, don't they? I was just pointing out that ITF-C actually has multiple national bodies in many countries. (The single NGB set up was one of the things many people found frustrating about dealing not so much with the ITF but with the people who were in charge in a particular country and I rather like the INO system, persoanlly.)



> And no one would think NK would allow more than one.... Sorry, couldn't help myself.



Yes, that's a shocker isn't it! 

Pax,

Chris


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## Twin Fist (Oct 10, 2012)

no....

grand prairie....


drawing a blank here.




terryl965 said:


> Arni we have a school here in Grand Prairie that tells there people at brown belt she has to take there finger prints and send it off to the CIA for record keeping, because now they are a lethal weapon. My GOD what people believe.


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## punisher73 (Oct 10, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> The ITF has operates differently. The ITF is the International governing body. It regulates both minimum technical standards for rank as well as governs competition. The ITF issues rank certificates.
> 
> Within each country there may be one National Governing Body under the ITF (Sometimes affiliated National Associations as well) that are the recognized members of the ITF. Those National bodies must adhere to the minimum ITF standards and may implement addittional standards as well so long as they do not conflict with ITF regulations.
> 
> Individuals are members of the national Organizations  (or affilliates).



I can see how people get confused now.


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## Metal (Oct 10, 2012)

Plus in some countries, like Germany for example, you have to go through the National Taekwondo Union which is affiliated with the ETU and WTF for dan testings. They conduct the regional and national dan testings and they issue the dan certificates. Then on top it's even more confusing when in the dan application form they ask you wether you'd like to receive the national certifiicate or a WTF certificate or both. ^^

With the WTF certificate they mean the Kukkiwon certificate.

So if even the governing national body of Taekwondo confuses WTF and Kukkiwon, what do you expect from those who never do any research and just listen to what their instructors tell them? ;-)

When I was a kid my kup cerificates had the WTF logo on them. Later certificates in the mid 90s even said "The testing was conducted under the Guidelines of the World Taekwondo Federation". My club back in the day wasn't a member of the German Taekwondo Union though and therefore was not affiliated with WTF. They went with an independent instructor to obtain Kukkiwon certificates for the black belts though. Nevertheless the club never had anything to do with WTF since we weren't part of the National Taekwondo Union and on top of that we did ITF style sparring. ^^




Anyway, I heard that WTF terminated their contract with Kukkiwon due to pressure from the IOC. The IOC basically disagrees that someone who wants to compete in the Oympics (in this case Taekwondo) needs to obtain a certificate which is issued by a private company (=Kukkiwon).

So basically athletes now only need to be members of their national Taekwondo Union which is affiliated with the WTF in order to compete in WTF tournaments.

I dunno if that's true or not and didn't find anything online yet.


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## troubleenuf (Oct 10, 2012)

Used to belong to that organization.  The Korean born "Great Grandmaster" never taught what the WTF and Kukkiwon were or were not.  He and his head guys keep their students pretty well isolated from the rest of the martial arts world and do a pretty good job of regulating what the students know and dont know.  For instance a few years back I took over a school were the students were appalled when I asked if they had hard copies of the patterns.  They told me that they were not allowed to have any books or videos and if they were caught with any they would loose their ranking.  I couldn't believe that in the US people would actually let someone dictate to them what they could have access too?!  




Dana said:


> I must admit that it really miffed me when local schools in the ND, SD and MN area would say they were "WTF" certified schools and instructors.  Some even said their gup ranks were WTF certified!  Mostly, they were just clueless and reacting to what their seniors told them.
> 
> Not to nit pic, but in the mid to late 1980's, the WTF did actually process dan certificates for a short time, so yah, I am "WTF certified!!"  I've never said that though.  I guess with the KOSM (Kukkiwon Overseas Members) now, some folks can finally say they have KKW-certified schools.
> 
> Dana


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 10, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> What would you guess is the real reason for taking fingerprints?  Simply marketing, in order to justify high fee costs, or something else?


Hopefully its for something like confidence boosting since they're close to BB?I doubt it, it's probably marketing but I really hope the person doing it believes she is doing good with it, even if it is misguided and deceitful.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 11, 2012)

troubleenuf said:


> I couldn't believe that in the US people would actually let someone dictate to them what they could have access too?!



Seen it many times. When I hosted tournaments i would get inquiries. People who did not know us were reluctant to participate since they had no idea if we had our heads screwed on straight . (Safe, fair, etc. )   So, I told them to come watch, and if they liked watch as my guest. If they liked what they saw they could participate the following year. 

Thinking I did not see them, I would follow up with a call. The answer was "My master would not let me watch."  I wanted to yell at them "This is America". But I just said O.K. Same with some open seminars I hosted.   A few came anyway secretly disobeying their instructors wishes.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2012)

Part of the problem is that many Westeners do accept these strictures on what is basically their freedom because they are doing Oriental martial arts and they believe that to be doing it properly they have to adopt what they think are Oriental practices. They read books and watch films that show strict training and obedience to the 'Master' which leads to, usually, the 'hero/ine gaining magically good powers of fighting and 'enlightenment'. Too many people think this strict monk-like discipline is how you are supposed to learn martial arts, they embrace this 'discipline' with a fervour and positively go out to be as servile and so called humble as they can. A good many 'Master's and other instructors like to perpetuate this myth, after all it brings in money and isn't a bad ego trip either.


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## terryl965 (Oct 11, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> no....
> 
> grand prairie....
> 
> ...



She got her BB though Grand Prairie Karate years ago and open a school twenty years or so. Grand Prairie is east of arlington and before Duncanville.


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## terryl965 (Oct 11, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think it was a Jackie Chan movie where he said something like "I hear the words coming out of your mouth, but don't understand.
> Why is a seperate org. needed to "guide and keep the sport side growing." The KKW could not do this because? Or Conversely the WTF could not do both because?
> Now, I am not trying to be difficult. Has anyone else ever asked this sort of question. Seems like the elephant in the room.



Master Weiss as I understand it the IOC has to have a seperate org for the rules and seperate NGB for each country. I could be wrong but that is how it was kinda explain to me.


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## chrispillertkd (Oct 11, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Master Weiss as I understand it the IOC has to have a seperate org for the rules and seperate NGB for each country. I could be wrong but that is how it was kinda explain to me.



That explains why there is the WTF and USAT, but it doesn't really answer the question as to why there is the WTF and the KKW. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Gnarlie (Oct 11, 2012)

It's like when a hit TV show scores a popular spin off show with one of the main characters - like Frasier.

Kukkiwon is the centre of the martial art, WTF is the spin off sport.  

In this case the spin off is big and popular enough to warrant it's own governing org. 

I think Kukkiwon would like it to be the case that you need to have watched the original show to enjoy the spin off - hence wanting international competitors to be KKW 1st Dan or higher. Still, really if it wasn't forced then I think some people would just enjoy the spin off without having to sit through Cheers. 

Gnarlie


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## WaterGal (Oct 23, 2012)

I think, maybe too optimistically?, that when people say they're a "WTF certified black belt" they mean that they have a certification as a black belt in the style of TKD promoted by the WTF.  As opposed to getting a black belt in ATA or ITF TKD, or one of those unaffiliated TSD schools that call themselves TKD.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2012)

WaterGal said:


> I think, maybe too optimistically?, that when people say they're a "WTF certified black belt" they mean that they have a certification as a black belt in the style of TKD promoted by the WTF.  As opposed to getting a black belt in ATA or ITF TKD, or one of those unaffiliated TSD schools that call themselves TKD.



But that is still incorrect. The WTF does not promote a style. They promote a sport. Nothing more.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 23, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Yes and No, the US open you can and it is a rated WTF event but in some othe international event you have top be KKW certified.




Can I compete?  Or am I still out since I'm not affiliated with anyone?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 24, 2012)

In Canada, the organisation to which Masters / GM's apply for black belts is called "WTF Taekwondo Association of Canada".  The website is wtfcanada.com.

Since the black belt is via an organisation called "WTF...", I can certainly understand the confusion of WTF vs. Kukkiwon.


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## tigycho (Oct 29, 2012)

Dana said:


> Hey man, it is one of my pet peeves also.  But you could be a WTF-certified dan for one year!  LOL  I once called a school in my state who advertised WTF certified etc. and such and I told him he was doing false advertising.  He informed me that his GM from Fargo insisted upon it and that conversation was pretty much over.



Fargo, or Moorhead?


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## mango.man (Oct 29, 2012)

How about this one Terry.  It was several years ago and I probably posted here about it at the time but I once went by my daughter's original school where she learned up to 2nd poom.  I needed to talk to one of the other parents about something and as I was standing outside the door to the dojang I noticed a flyer on the bulletin board inside.  I pressed my nose against the window to read what it said and to my horror it was a notice from the lead instructor (now the owner) of the dojang.  

It read:

Due to increased fees from The Kukkiwon belt test fees will be increased as follows
Yellow - Orange now $60
Blue - Red now $70

I thought to myself "too bad none of these parents realize that Kukkiwon doesn't give a crap about any color belt other than Black.  Also too bad none of these parents realize that Kukkiwon has not even raised their fee for Black Belt in several years."


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## miguksaram (Oct 30, 2012)

bluewaveschool said:


> Can I compete? Or am I still out since I'm not affiliated with anyone?



In an international event you have to be KKW certified.  As long as you have that, you should be good to go, they do not care if you are with a school or not, if I remember correctly. In local WTF sanctioned events I do not believe it matters if you are KKW certified or not nor does it matter if you are with a school or not, as long as you play by their rules.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 1, 2012)

Been reading posts and thinking about why 2 orgs were needed.  Can't help but wonder if it stemmed from the early days and inclusiveness of the KKW where everything was TKD and any number of systems could get rank certs. thru the KKW. Now, for competition there had to be a unified rule set. 

 Instead of instituting a single rule set that could be viewed as exclusionary which would run contrary to the inclusiveness model the solution was to have a sister org set the competition standard. 

Any KKW people see any merit to this theory?


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## punisher73 (Nov 1, 2012)

After I read through this thread and read it, I can see why people are still confused about it...

At least everyone agrees about the history of the art...oh wait :angel:


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 1, 2012)

Just read Current issue of Totally TKD interview with He - Young Kimm an interesting excerpt. :
Q: Who were the people who put together the rules for Olympic Sparring and when were they forst used.
A: Dr. Un Yung ikm, when he became president in 1971, said he had a dream for TKD to go to the Olympics> Tp achieve that dream he said he forst had to create an umbrella.... 

There is much more, but I felt this part was on point.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 4, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In Canada, the organisation to which Masters / GM's apply for black belts is called "WTF Taekwondo Association of Canada".  The website is wtfcanada.com.


I now read in the September 2012 Annual General Meeting draft minutes that the name is being changed to Taekwondo Canada.  I guess other people also felt the WTF reference was confusing!


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