# Minimum time for a belt?



## Hefeweizen (Jun 13, 2003)

Does your Kenpo school have a minimum time frame for each belt?

I'm curious because I attend class very frequently (6-7 times per week), practice a lot at home, and satisfied the school's own established set of criteria for the current belt.  When the assistant instructor went to put me 'on the list' for promotion she was told there is a two month minimum per belt.   

This is odd because I'm much more ready for this current testing than the previous two where I tested and felt a little unready (some hesitancy and errors in executing on a body).   

Is this the sign of a school milking its students?

-HW


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## liam (Jun 13, 2003)

Don't think so, in my school semilar rules are applied: nobody I know had his yellow belt before one year of  training. 

Btw, in my opnion changing belts isn't that important, if you are happy with your improvements that is already something. Don't be that rushed, everything comes in time!


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## roryneil (Jun 13, 2003)

When I started reading your post I was thinking ripoff, until I saw "two month". That is nothing. If they made you wait many month or a year I would question, but two months? BTW, how can you be ready after two months? At our school we go over two techs on a "tech week", which would be a two month minimum to even be taught all the techs in a 16 tech curriculum. But in there are forms, something we call "spirit" or "guts" week which is just a major workout. So that's about 3 months to initailly get all the material, and making it look good is a whole different matter.


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## tonbo (Jun 13, 2003)

We have some degree of minimum times, at least for the lower belts.

If you are *flying* through the material, i.e., if you have some sort of natural skill, or are a quick learner, or have had previous training, you can get through your first 2-3 belts in about 15 weeks each, minimum.  Again, keep in mind that this is just passing off the material, not making it look astounding.  This would be the absolute minimum.

Usually, you can count on it being a bit more than that, but those are the minimums.

As you get into the intermediate ranks, you are looking at more like a longer period of time.  I really can't say what the minimum there would be, but my guess would be that you are looking at about 6-7 months between belts.  Again, that is flying through.

Once you hit green and up (brown and Black), well, forget it.  Minimum time between belts seems to be somewhere in the year to year and a half range.

Yet again, this is really running through some of the material.  

Funny thing is, when talking with prospective students, we always tell them that you can earn your Black in approximately 4-6 years.  Well, that is truly *possible* at our school, yet I have yet to see anyone earn their Black in 6 years.  Most tend to be in the 8+ year range.

Overall, though....I gotta say they look pretty darn good when they go for it! 

Peace--


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## pineapple head (Jun 13, 2003)

I cannot see the big deal with belts, you may be a black belt ..get your *** kicked , then how good do you look or care about belts....then you will say this does not work,WHY BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO RUSH IT.
Take your time , learn the basics.
I say about 1 year per belt min.Or whatever it does not matter.

Gary.


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## roryneil (Jun 13, 2003)

There is a balance.  Too long and they are milking you for monthly dues. Too short and, sorry to say, you suck (probably). I see people from the 24/belt curriculum and they know more tech but they look terrible and only know the tech on one side, etc. You should know if your instructor is ripping you or not.


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## Nightingale (Jun 13, 2003)

Take some time to really work your forms and techniques.  Break down your forms into their component techniques and work them off the attack.  

If it really comes down to just biding your time for a few weeks, find a higher rank and bug them to teach you a tech or two from your next belt, but keep in mind, my instructors say that they discover new stuff even about yellow belt techniques, so you may not have truly mastered your techniques yet.  Do them slowly and work on fluidity.

It doesen't sound like your instructor is scamming you. It seems like he may not think you are ready yet, or just wants to make sure you're taking your time.  Just keep in mind that the color of your belt doesn't really matter, its what you know.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 13, 2003)

I have seen many, many different approaches to time restrictions to rank.  Depending upon the specific curriculum and the methods of training and philosophy of the studio ....... this can range from one month (depending upon which belt) to years before promotions.

Generally, the in AK, the yellow belt is achieved anywhere from one month to 3 months of regular class attendance (2 to 3 times a week), colored belts usually within 6 months, brown belts 6 months to a year, and black belts 1 year to several years each depending on the degree.  However, this can be drastically different between studios. 

I had a fellow studio owner in my area that re-arranged many of the "basics" and "front-end loaded" "his" Yellow Belt requirements with them. Compared to our charts, there were at least twice as many requirements (we were both in the IKKA at the time) between our studios, and it was almost a year until he allowed you to test.  He believed that most of the basics should be within the first belt (it is the most important).

While this philosophy is valid, it is also good to understand that learning physical skills need time to acquire and commitment to an organized "process".

Mr. Parker said, "learning comes in stages, first you need to 'know of', then 'KNOW' and finally 'understand'".  In the beginning it is not necessary to understand everything all at once, but get introduced to many areas of the Art.  As time and commitment to "the process" continues.... you will  "Know" much of the material much better, and finally, as more time & training continues, you will understand what has been taught.

My philosophy is that whenever the student can perform all the material for their rank adequately and with decent skill achieved.... they can be tested.  This of course, is subjective to the individual instructor involved.  

Like many have commented already, it really doesn't matter if you are getting good training and are looking at the skills and knowledge that you are learning vs. the belt.  Sooner or later, you will be promoted.  

You need to be able to "utilize" what you are being taught and not just "aware of the many different aspects" that there may be.  

Be able to "use" what you learn if you ever need it on the street in an actual encounter and not just "show" someone what you have been exposed to.

:asian:


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## Hefeweizen (Jun 13, 2003)

Well, we have 15 tech per belt and usually one form.   I've had about 35 classes since the last belt, so I received about one tech every other class.  Review is built into the system as well.

I'm not belt hungry.  it's just that once you have the material the nonstop review gets a bit bland since review is already built into the classes (the days I get new techniques we review the ones I already have).  The other factor is that virtually nobody is my same belt but many have the belt above mine.  So, instead of working with my current belt techniques or drills now I often get assigned to help white belts review.   

In the big picture I guess that I wish belts weren't such an important issue.


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## rmcrobertson (Jun 13, 2003)

If you're being taught well, it's not, "nonstop review." Doing the techs and being criticized about a zillion times is essential to understanding them on even a basic level--and that's not even considering the fact that the techniques should, "deepen," as you learn more about them. 

What I remind myself, when I get bored, is that I haven't done the previous belt's techniques and sets and forms in a while...I mean hell, I'm still learning about the yellow techniques...and let's not even get into my crappy outside-in crescent kicks...

Thanks,
Robert

PS. Tonbo seems to know what he's talking about. As for RoryNeil--completely wrong, fella. My first instructor's still mourning the death of 32 techniques/belt--and at present, I'm at Mr. Tatum's. We seem to do OK with 24 techniques/belt. Sorry, but you are mistaken...and as for that "doing the techniques on both sides," jazz, well, consult other threads on the subject. 

R


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## Doc (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hefeweizen _
> *Does your Kenpo school have a minimum time frame for each belt?
> 
> I'm curious because I attend class very frequently (6-7 times per week), practice a lot at home, and satisfied the school's own established set of criteria for the current belt.  When the assistant instructor went to put me 'on the list' for promotion she was told there is a two month minimum per belt.
> ...


Although most schools that have time requirements use months and/or years ,w follow an academic model suggested by Ed Parker and place a minimum number of hours on each course. Students have time sheets and a member of the staff signs and documents  the participation of every class. When students petition to take an exam, their time sheets are a part of the application submission. Every student at every level and course goes through this process.  Hours documentation make more sense because 2 people could have both been training 3 months, and one could have 3 or 4 times as many hours. My Course 101 (yellow) requires a minimum of 72  hours. total. 20 of those hours may be lecture, with a mnimum of 52 physical participation hours.


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## Hefeweizen (Jun 16, 2003)

Our school uses those sheets and that's exactly the focus of my concern.  Most students attend 2 times per week, maybe 3.  I came to 6-7 per week for just over a month straight.   I had the same knowledge and was "checked out" by an instructor who observed my techniques being performed.   It just seems fishy that I can have the same level of mastery as a casual student who took 3 months and is allowed to test but yet I can't test.

As an aside, there is a student at my rank who has held the same belt for 5 months but he can barely perform is techniques satisfactorily (hesitates, forgets a few of them all the time, does them wrong occasionally) but yet he is allowed to test this time.   It's weird but it looks like some students get bumped up to keep them going in belt progress whereas others are held back.

I just wanted to get a feel for what others thought about a dojo having specific criteria for a belt such as minimum time lengths.  Thanks.


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## Nightingale (Jun 16, 2003)

sometimes instructors will promote a student before they feel the student is ready to encourage them.  the student gets a little more confidence, and things come together.  sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  its a risk.  Perhaps that is what your instructor is trying to do with the student who's been there 5 mo and still having problems. its something I usually personally don't agree with, but I do admit that sometimes it can be the right choice for a student, because sometimes it isn't a technical problem, its a confidence problem.


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## tonbo (Jun 16, 2003)

I'm going to agree with both GoldenDragon and Nightingale, here.

I don't think it matters how many hours or classes a student has taken or trained.  Different people "get it" on different schedules.  I agree that there is probably a bare minimum of time that should be allowed per belt, but students should be tested *when they are ready*, not because they have passed a certain number of classes.

At our school, I have seen students promoted when they didn't feel that they were ready; usually, as Nightingale said, it was a confidence issue--they were comfortable as a big fish in a small pond, and afraid of being in a class where there were more senior students.  Once they were moved up to the next class, however, they did quite well--better than they thought, in fact.  Actually, most of the Black Belt class is like that (we actually had to track one guy down and jokingly threaten his life if he didn't test--he was more than ready, but just didn't want to test!).

Belts or belt ranking shouldn't be an issue, yet it is to our more western way of thinking.  I have seen more dedicated lower belts take less prepared upper belts to task in forms, sparring, and techniques.  I'd rather work with and/or spar a lower belt who is learning his/her basics than a paper high belt.

Besides.....do belts matter on the street?  No, but the amount of *real* training you have done does.

Thanks for some good posts!!

Peace--


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## Doc (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> *I'm going to agree with both GoldenDragon and Nightingale, here.
> 
> I don't think it matters how many hours or classes a student has taken or trained.  Different people "get it" on different schedules.  I agree that there is probably a bare minimum of time that should be allowed per belt, but students should be tested *when they are ready*, not because they have passed a certain number of classes.
> ...


Apparently you misread my posting. Nowhere did I suggest a student becase he has met the minimum hourly requirement will they be allowed to test. The hourly requirement is a prerequisite to requesting the oportunity to participate in an exam. Students who have not met minimum physical standards of execution in the opinion of the staff, are rejected and encouraged to apply again at  the next exam  quarter.

Because of this system, students  usually don't petition without consultation with a staff member to insure they are ready. In addition the written examination portion of the exam consists of 40 essay questions. The minimum passing score on both phases of the process is 80%.

We do not do "confidence" advancements. What happens when you advance a student to bolster his confidence and then he/she ceases study? This is esentially the same as a "social promotion" seen in our  sorry public schools. The idea that you "advance" someone to get them to "do better" instead of on the merit is  not a good one. What you do is create a false expectation of performance. Confidence is a part of the staffs responsibility in the classroom insuring  they can execute under stress reasonalbly successfully for their level. Without the confidence, they couldn't test.

Although I am not a fan of belts, in any academic model that has physical requirements as well, minimum standards must be set and met  by students to maintain the quality of the product.


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## thomp (Jun 17, 2003)

A question keeps popping into my mind as I read this:

Why does it matter?

I'm assuming that belts aren't what you're in kenpo for. . .





Also - if the place was trying to rip you off, wouldn't they promote you as fast as possible to get more from black belt tuition, which is, I assume, more?


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## Kirk (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thomp _
> *A question keeps popping into my mind as I read this:
> 
> Why does it matter?
> ...



It's sure not what I signed up for, but promotions are necessary
to keep learning the system.  

Let me ask you this ... I'm a purple belt.  I could care less about
rank.  Should I stop right there, and never seek a promotion 
again, since all I really care about is learning, and getting a good
workout? 

We've done delayed sword thousands of times since I started.  
Each and everytime I learn something new ... should I stop right
now, and just focus on the 59 techs, 2 forms and 5 sets that I've
learned?  Is that going to perpetuate the system?


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## jeffkyle (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *It's sure not what I signed up for, but promotions are necessary
> to keep learning the system.
> 
> *



Hey Kirk,

With today's technology that isn't necessarily true, information is just a click away.  HOWEVER, a good base is necessary for one to continue learning on their own, and that is where a good instructor comes in.  

And as I have learned just recently, a good instructor can continue to WOW you...no matter how long you have been training, or what rank you are.


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## tonbo (Jun 17, 2003)

> Apparently you misread my posting. Nowhere did I suggest a student becase he has met the minimum hourly requirement will they be allowed to test.



Actually, I think I need to apologize, here.  When I was making my statement about hourly/number of classes requirements, I was thinking in a broad sense, not referencing your post specifically.  

I have visited schools where students were tested after passing off the required number of classes, even if they were not close to ready.  They were tested, and, in most cases, passed, if they were even looking in the right directions.

What I heard you say was that your time sheets are part of a *process*, not an end to themselves.  We have similar processes, in that we have attendance cards.  When you show up to class, your card is marked.  At our school, it is a means of seeing how many classes a student is attending, so that we can better try to determine which students may need extra encouragement or help.

Once again, Doc, my apologies if I seemed to direct my attention to you--it was not intentional.  I see your process, and I'm not harping on you or your school in particular.  I'm harping on the "them" out there that are just following the almighty dollar.

Kirk:

You may not be in the art for the belt, but hey, it never hurts as you go along, right?  As long as you are getting what you want out of the training, no, I wouldn't worry about promotions.  But if you get the chance to get another belt, hey, why not?  It can only mean more fun for you (as you learn more/different material).  

The major difference between you and the "belt collector" will be that you will gain some in-depth knowledge and skill, whereas the collector will get a good workout, mainly for the ego.

And you are a *purple* belt?   Sheesh, you had *me* fooled...

Peace to all--


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## Doc (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> *Actually, I think I need to apologize, here.  When I was making my statement about hourly/number of classes requirements, I was thinking in a broad sense, not referencing your post specifically.
> 
> I have visited schools where students were tested after passing off the required number of classes, even if they were not close to ready.  They were tested, and, in most cases, passed, if they were even looking in the right directions.
> ...



I agree with you totally, no apologies necessary. Unfortunately the "belt mills" rule. Just look at the product being turned out. "Don't you just hate when that happens!"


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## Hefeweizen (Jun 17, 2003)

In response to "WHy does it matter?" I have to agree with the other purple belt above.   Learning new stuff is based on what belt you're wearing, and as a student I didn't get to choose that Kenpo has a rainbow of belts.   I could care less about the color I'm wearing, per se.  It's the difference in class content that matters, and unfortunately that is based on what color belt I'm wearing (and whether I'm just reviewing as I wait for the next testing).

Think of exams in college.  Remember studying the material up to a point where you've got it down fairly well, to the point where you receive an 'A' on the exam?  Now get to that point of knowledge of your notes and be told to review that very same set of notes one hour a day, 6-7 days a week for a month until the next opportunity arises for you to learn something new.   

Now, no doubt I'm striving for mastery of all of the techniques, so I realize that lots of practice is a good thing.   But there comes a point when it's just time to move on, especially when the dojo's very own instructors say so and then oops... your promotion is blocked because you didnt meet a minimum time requirement.


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## pineapple head (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hefeweizen _
> *In response to "WHy does it matter?" I have to agree with the other purple belt above.   Learning new stuff is based on what belt you're wearing, and as a student I didn't get to choose that Kenpo has a rainbow of belts.   I could care less about the color I'm wearing, per se.  It's the difference in class content that matters, and unfortunately that is based on what color belt I'm wearing (and whether I'm just reviewing as I wait for the next testing).
> 
> Think of exams in college.  Remember studying the material up to a point where you've got it down fairly well, to the point where you receive an 'A' on the exam?  Now get to that point of knowledge of your notes and be told to review that very same set of notes one hour a day, 6-7 days a week for a month until the next opportunity arises for you to learn something new.
> ...



Got to agree a little on this one , there does come a time to learn new stuff.Being part of a small club myself i work a lot with new students , i get hungry for new material although i know my old material is not 100%,but will it ever be?
:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jun 18, 2003)

Um...exactly how long is it since you last tested, if you don't mind my asking?


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## Ender (Jul 13, 2003)

What are the requirements after 3rd Black?


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## Doc (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> *What are the requirements after 3rd Black? *


You must be specific. Everyone does not have the same requirements. Saying "kenpo" is like saying "karate." This forum additionally attracts all different forms and interpretations of "kenmpo" and all of them have internal variances.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> *What are the requirements after 3rd Black? *



Hey Ender (I won't use your name but thank you for the courtesy of supplying it the other day)

What requirements are you looking for specifically?

In the 16 curriculum they have requirements to 5th Black and the 24 is to 3rd Black.   I would suggest you ck the Kenponet for the requirements to each as they have them listed in both formats.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Ender (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *You must be specific. Everyone does not have the same requirements. Saying "kenpo" is like saying "karate." This forum additionally attracts all different forms and interpretations of "kenmpo" and all of them have internal variances. *



oh ok...I've only seen up to 3rd Black.thats why I was asking.Thanks


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## Ender (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Hey Ender (I won't use your name but thank you for the courtesy of supplying it the other day)
> 
> What requirements are you looking for specifically?
> ...



ok..Thanks!


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## Ender (Jul 13, 2003)

wow..I just made orange belt in here!!...60 posts!..I'm so happy!!..I'd like to thank the academy.....


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## MJS (Jul 13, 2003)

I really don't see how you can put a time on it to begin with.  I realize that the belts show the level of progression, and the time limit is to properly give the student enough time to learn the material.  But, keep in mind, that everybody learns at a different rate.  I've had parents say to me, "Well, my son/daughter started at the same time as Jimmy, and he's already moved up a rank.  how come my child hasnt?"  Like it was posted earlier, who cares about the rank.  Instead of being so concerned with the color of the belt, shouldnt you be more concerned with how well you know the material????  I'd rather have it take an extra 2 months to go from one to the next, and have the student know it, rather than just put him/her on the test, just because the time limit is up, and have them look like s**t!

Mike


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## purplekenposkunk (Jul 14, 2003)

We _never_ listen to music in our classes. I can think of only one time that we did, and that is after about 3 years.I think that it would be beneficial in some situations, especially while warming up/doing calisthenics. I don't mean stuff like Fleetwood Mac or anything, but maybe more techno stuff, just kind of a rhythmic sound.

I understand that it is best to not have the students rely on music to workout correctly, since there probably won't be any music when a mugger attacks them on the street. Are there other reasons that  instructors avoid this?


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 14, 2003)

Who listens to music while they're in class? What a remarkably-bad idea...among other things, it would be a distraction from what's important.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Who listens to music while they're in class? What a remarkably-bad idea...among other things, it would be a distraction from what's important. *



Don't discount the idea Robert, it works very well when employed correctly.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## jeffkyle (Jul 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Don't discount the idea Robert, it works very well when employed correctly.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Nothing like some Magic Carpet Ride while doing Long 4.


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## Doc (Jul 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *Nothing like some Magic Carpet Ride while doing Long 4.
> *


I have always had music playing in my classes since the sixties. It is a habit I picked up from my teacher  Ed Parker, who also advocated music in the classroom. In fact he suggested it can enhance the learning and retention process. For those who thought otherwise, later on he suggested a book; "Super Learning," by Sheila Ostrander.


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## jeffkyle (Jul 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I have always had music playing in my classes since the sixties. It is a habit I picked up from my teacher  Ed Parker, who also advocated music in the classroom. In fact he suggested it can enhance the learning and retention process. For those who thought otherwise, later on he suggested a book; "Super Learning," by Sheila Ostrander. *



Music soothes the savage beast.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *Music soothes the savage beast. *



Nothing better than a little Motley Crue for Form 8 and sparring.   "Girls, Girls, Girls" is one of my favs for that.    "Wild Side" kicks serious ***.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Kalicombat (Jul 14, 2003)

For me, any ACDC, (pre Back In Back of course), or, occasionally The DOORS. Nothing like 'The End' when doing forms. Flashback to Apocolypse Now. 

ACDC's song, LIVE WIRE has a profound effect on me. Recently, while lifting weights, the gym was playing some pop station, and I was attempting a new bench press max. Couldnt get my head into it. I pulled out my cassette player, cued up LIVE WIRE, and let the tunes sink in. I banged out 2 reps with a new 1 rep personal record.


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