# OK... minor rant time



## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2009)

:soapbox:
First let me get this off my chest&#8230; ARRRGH!!!!!! :angry: Your sifu IS NOT your Sigung :tantrum:


Sorry but I have seen or heard this a few times in the last month and it's driving me nuts but Sigung does not mean Senior Teacher, grand master or anything else to identify one of greater knowledge than a sifu and IF your sifu (teacher) insists on being called Sigung then he is WRONG!!!!!!! :cuss:

Your sifu CANNOT be your sigung but your sifu&#8217;s sifu can. Kind of like your grandfather really shouldn't be your father (just less icky) :disgust:

Sigung means grandfather teacher or teacher&#8217;s teacher not grandmaster, not senior teacher :rpo: not superior to a sifu :erg: not Jedi master:yoda: just grandfather teacher or teacher&#8217;s teacher .

Your teacher is your shifu 
Your Teacher&#8217;s teacher is your shigung
And your Teacher&#8217;s teacher&#8217;s teacher is your Da Shigung

And I have it on good authority that the Cantonese version is much the same

Sifu, Sigung and Dai Sigung.

And just to note Da shifu is more like grand master and I have seen a few take the title here in the good ole USA :ticked: BUT just as a note if you hear a Chinese martial artist from China call another Chinese martial artist from China a da shifu you best duck and cover if they are both legitimate martial artists because a fight is about to start. Because Da Sifu &#8230;is&#8230; an insult. 

:cuss: So for crying out loud..LEARN the language before you start giving yourself titles to make yourself feel superior to a simple sifu. 


:soapbox:

Rant over

Thank You


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## arnisador (May 8, 2009)

What if your sifu was self-taught?


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## clfsean (May 8, 2009)

arnisador said:


> What if your sifu was self-taught?



Then he's be the sijo (founder) & better be able to stand up to the scrutiny of proving it.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

It's ok, tell us how you really feel...


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2009)

Nomad said:


> It's ok, tell us how you really feel...


 
I can't..... they don't allow that type of language on MT


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Then he's be the sijo (founder) & better be able to stand up to the scrutiny of proving it.


 
and that scrutiny might be a tad bit painful  :whip::boxing:


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## geezer (May 10, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> :soapbox:
> First let me get this off my chest&#8230; ARRRGH!!!!!! :angry: Your sifu IS NOT your Sigung... Your sifu CANNOT be your sigung but your sifu&#8217;s sifu can. Kind of like your grandfather really shouldn't be your father (just less icky)



Yes, the only way that could happen is some sort of martial arts incest. Better not go there.



Xue Sheng said:


> Sifu, Sigung and Dai Sigung.



OK, I don't speak Cantonese, but my Cantonese Sifu used the terms _Sifu_, _Sigung_ and _Sijo_ (Grandfateher). So my Sifu was Leung Ting, my Sigung was Yip Man, my Sijo: Chan Wah Shun (or possibly Leung Bic as well, since both taught Grandmaster Yip). We used the term "Dai" = "big" or "great" to indicate someone of exceptional stature. So I would address a great practioner of my system, such as Master Keith Kernspecht (who I have never met, btw) as my Dai sihing (or "great" +sihing= "elder brother" since we had the same sifu). And Grandmaster Yip, as he is he is both deceased, and universally recognized as having been a great exponent of his art, certainly would merit the honorific term "Dai". On the other hand, the other leaders of this system, including my former Sifu have also adopted all manner of titles and ranks to promote themselves. So much for the virtue of humility! 



Xue Sheng said:


> ... just as a note if you hear a Chinese martial artist from China call another Chinese martial artist from China a da shifu you best duck and cover if they are both legitimate martial artists because a fight is about to start. Because* Da Sifu &#8230;is&#8230; an insult.*



Boy, how do they handle that in _Chicago_? lol.


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## clfsean (May 10, 2009)

geezer said:


> Boy, how do they handle that in _Chicago_? lol.



Eh no worries in Chicago since their boys would already be jumpin for crossing the turf lines to begin with...


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## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2009)

geezer said:


> Yes, the only way that could happen is some sort of martial arts incest. Better not go there.


 
Agreed...lets not go there



geezer said:


> OK, I don't speak Cantonese, but my Cantonese Sifu used the terms Sifu, Sigung and Sijo (Grandfateher). So my Sifu was Leung Ting, my Sigung was Yip Man, my Sijo: Chan Wah Shun (or possibly Leung Bic as well, since both taught Grandmaster Yip). We used the term "Dai" = "big" or "great" to indicate someone of exceptional stature. So I would address a great practioner of my system, such as Master Keith Kernspecht (who I have never met, btw) as my Dai sihing (or "great" +sihing= "elder brother" since we had the same sifu). And Grandmaster Yip, as he is he is both deceased, and universally recognized as having been a great exponent of his art, certainly would merit the honorific term "Dai". On the other hand, the other leaders of this system, including my former Sifu have also adopted all manner of titles and ranks to promote themselves. So much for the virtue of humility!


 
Elder brother, as far as I know is ok, Grandmaster applied to a deceased master is also ok. But call a living "Chinese" Sifu a grandmaster if you too are Chinese you COULD have a problem. Example my 1st sifu calls my Sanda sifu Da Sifu and my first sifu is in for a world of hurt. However they let most of us Western slide because we don't know any better and in some cases they use it to their monetary advantage. There is a Sifu in Beijing that has 2 WebPages, one in Chinese where he is a sifu and one in English where he is a Grandmaster. However on the Chinese page there is ABSOLUTLY no HINT of title grandmaster.



geezer said:


> Boy, how do they handle that in Chicago? lol.


 


clfsean said:


> Eh no worries in Chicago since their boys would already be jumpin for crossing the turf lines to begin with...


 
I'm glad you knew about the Chicago stuff because I had no clue. And thanks for the Help with the Cantonese for this post :asian:


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## Tensei85 (Jun 23, 2009)

geezer said:


> Yes, the only way that could happen is some sort of martial arts incest. Better not go there.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I don't speak Cantonese, but my Cantonese Sifu used the terms _Sifu_, _Sigung_ and _Sijo_ (Grandfateher). So my Sifu was Leung Ting, my Sigung was Yip Man, my Sijo: Chan Wah Shun (or possibly Leung Bic as well, since both taught Grandmaster Yip). We used the term "Dai" = "big" or "great" to indicate someone of exceptional stature. So I would address a great practioner of my system, such as Master Keith Kernspecht (who I have never met, btw) as my Dai sihing (or "great" +sihing= "elder brother" since we had the same sifu). And Grandmaster Yip, as he is he is both deceased, and universally recognized as having been a great exponent of his art, certainly would merit the honorific term "Dai". On the other hand, the other leaders of this system, including my former Sifu have also adopted all manner of titles and ranks to promote themselves. So much for the virtue of humility!




Another translation is Sifu-Sigung-Sitaigung (anything after or sometimes before is translated as Sijou) in Cantonese. Another translation for multiple Sifu's that are instructing you from the same family.

Would be 
Senior Teacher- Dai Sifu
2nd Teacer- Yi Sifu
3rd Teacher- Saam Sifu etc...

As opposed to the traditional Sibaak or Sisuk or etc...


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## Tensei85 (Jun 23, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Another translation is Sifu-Sigung-Sitaigung (anything after or sometimes before is translated as Sijou) in Cantonese. Another translation for multiple Sifu's that are instructing you from the same family.
> 
> Would be
> Senior Teacher- Dai Sifu
> ...



Or of course mandarin:

Da Shifu
Er Shifu
San Shifu


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## Tensei85 (Jun 23, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> :soapbox:
> First let me get this off my chest ARRRGH!!!!!! :angry: Your sifu IS NOT your Sigung :tantrum:
> 
> 
> ...




By the way I see that crap all the time, and all I can do is laugh and walk away. To be honest I tried explaining to people like that, it generally doesn't work out...


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## David43515 (Jun 23, 2009)

This may be off topic, but since I don`t speak Chinese I thought I`d ask. 

I thought I also heard that "Sifu" originally meant a teacher who had accepted you as a personal disciple, and that term signified that relationship. I had heard there was another term used by students who were just paying members of the school but who were not personal diciples of the teacher. Two terms to signify two different relationships to the teacher.

Anyone who knows the language and can comment or correct me?


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## Tensei85 (Jun 24, 2009)

David43515 said:


> This may be off topic, but since I don`t speak Chinese I thought I`d ask.
> 
> I thought I also heard that "Sifu" originally meant a teacher who had accepted you as a personal disciple, and that term signified that relationship. I had heard there was another term used by students who were just paying members of the school but who were not personal diciples of the teacher. Two terms to signify two different relationships to the teacher.
> 
> Anyone who knows the language and can comment or correct me?



Actually in Chinese there are 2 different Sifu's:

1. Is your Sifu (family term)
2. The other is any other Sifu (has some type of specialized skill)

The pronounciation is the same however the characters that define the word are different, I'm currently on a mobile device so I can't upload the characters, but I will tomorrow...

As for the 2nd part of your statement on some occasions people use the term "laoshi" or Canto "Laosi" to designate a teacher. Take note however this is more commonly referred to "school teachers" and similar occupations but sometimes is used for those instructing you but not directly related to you in the Martial Arts field.

Hope this helps,


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## Tez3 (Jun 24, 2009)

Is this part of the same thing where the Chinese have 'title's (can't think of another word) in the family, such First Uncle, First Brother/Sister.
I'm a huge fan of a writer called Han Suyin and as well as writing novels she's also written her autobiography and it's littered with title's like this.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Is this part of the same thing where the Chinese have 'title's (can't think of another word) in the family, such First Uncle, First Brother/Sister.
> I'm a huge fan of a writer called Han Suyin and as well as writing novels she's also written her autobiography and it's littered with title's like this.


 
Yup

But in families the names are different (and more complicated) depending on if they are on your fathers side of mothers side and even though I am older than my wifes older brother I still need to call him older brother just like she does.


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## masherdong (Jun 24, 2009)

Hmm, let's see, when I took Kajukenbo in the early 90's, I was trained by Sigung Dann Baker.  At that time he was a 6th or 7th BB.  He told us to call him Sigung.  There wasnt a Sifu that taught me, just him.  So, I called him Sigung.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2009)

masherdong said:


> Hmm, let's see, when I took Kajukenbo in the early 90's, I was trained by Sigung Dann Baker. At that time he was a 6th or 7th BB. He told us to call him Sigung. There wasnt a Sifu that taught me, just him. So, I called him Sigung.


 
Call him what you want but he is not a sigung if you are talking Chinese martial arts unless he was the teacher of your teacher (sifu). He may have wanted to be called sigung but he was your sifu not your sigung if you are talking CMA.

Sigung means Grandfather teacher and I am sorry but it appear "Sigung" Baker does not know Chinese, he can't be your sigung if he is your teacher.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 24, 2009)

masherdong said:


> Hmm, let's see, when I took Kajukenbo in the early 90's, I was trained by Sigung Dann Baker.  At that time he was a 6th or 7th BB.  He told us to call him Sigung.  There wasnt a Sifu that taught me, just him.  So, I called him Sigung.



Yea, the problem seems to be stemming from a traditional ranking system and then trying to incorporate traditional Chinese terms to show its Chinese roots.

Sometimes they just don't mix, traditionally there was no ranking systems in CMA to begin with. However I understand that certain systems have adopted a ranking system, but the original use was only based on familial hierarchy.

So these family terms were no different as Xue has mentioned than one's own family now a days. These terms haven't changed just as you would not call your uncle a cousin nor a father a grandfather etc... As Xue brought out earlier.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 24, 2009)

David43515 said:


> This may be off topic, but since I don`t speak Chinese I thought I`d ask.
> 
> I thought I also heard that "Sifu" originally meant a teacher who had accepted you as a personal disciple, and that term signified that relationship. I had heard there was another term used by students who were just paying members of the school but who were not personal diciples of the teacher. Two terms to signify two different relationships to the teacher.
> 
> Anyone who knows the language and can comment or correct me?




Ok here's the difference for the two separate Sifu's

&#24107;&#29238;- This is your Sifu
&#24107;&#20613;- This is any other Sifu

But the two are still Sifu


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 24, 2009)

> Sigung means Grandfather teacher and I am sorry but it appear "Sigung" Baker does not know Chinese, he can't be your sigung if he is your teacher.


 
Do you remember that movie The Stupids?

He sings this song:



> Many, many years ago when I was twenty-three
> I was married to a widow who was pretty as could be
> This widow had a grownup daughter who had hair of red
> My father fell in love with her, and soon they too were wed
> ...


  I think I am the only person who saw this movie on Martialtalk...:uhohh:


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Do you remember that movie The Stupids?
> 
> He sings this song:
> 
> I think I am the only person who saw this movie on Martialtalk...:uhohh:


 
Well I didn't see the movie but I have heard the song


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 24, 2009)

Here you go I like what the guy who uploaded  it said "best viewed if drunk".


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## Tensei85 (Jun 24, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Do you remember that movie The Stupids?
> 
> He sings this song:
> 
> I think I am the only person who saw this movie on Martialtalk...:uhohh:




Wow!  That's pretty messed up.


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## Ninebird8 (Jun 24, 2009)

One of my Sifu, Leung Shum, in the old days would barely allow us to even call him that until after his Master Ng Wei died. Afterwards, it was Sifu, but now with 6 masters under him officially, and many instructors, does he accept the role of Sigung. On the other hand, in one of my two other Sifu's class, we called him Sifu in classs, Jeff out of class at his insistence, and Dr. Yang we just called him Dr. Yang. In my belief, the key here is honoring and respecting your master's knowledge, wisdom, and skill, regardless of title. When one of my students calls me Sifu, I frankly look around and go, "Where?", LOL!!!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2009)

My Yang Sifu goes by his first name and also doesn't mind Sifu but he was very adamant to a group that was starting to call him grand master that he is not a grand master and to not call him that. In China he would still be a Sifu, he was a student of Tung Ying Chieh

My first Sifu however when I first started training with him went by his first name, later didn't mind Sifu and now calls himself a grandmaster. In China he is a gym teacher and learned 95% of what he knows in college. But then my Sanda sifu and Chen Zhenglei also call him Grandmaster (Da Sifu &#8211; see end of first post of thread about Da shifu )


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## blindsage (Jun 25, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Call him what you want but he is not a sigung if you are talking Chinese martial arts unless he was the teacher of your teacher (sifu). He may have wanted to be called sigung but he was your sifu not your sigung if you are talking CMA.
> 
> Sigung means Grandfather teacher and I am sorry but it appear "Sigung" Baker does not know Chinese, he can't be your sigung if he is your teacher.


I think this post from the "Titles" thread in the General MA section explains the Kajukenbo context.


just2kicku said:


> 5th (degree black belt) in Kajukenbo is Sifu.
> 1st and 2nd - Sibak
> 3rd -5th - Sifu
> 6th and 7th - sigung
> ...


 
I think it probably indicates either a lack of understanding of CMA in setting up the ranks or a conscious change of usage when the art was created.


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## blindsage (Jun 25, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> My Yang Sifu goes by his first name and also doesn't mind Sifu but he was very adamant to a group that was starting to call him grand master that he is not a grand master and to not call him that. In China he would still be a Sifu, he was a student of Tung Ying Chieh
> 
> My first Sifu however when I first started training with him went by his first name, later didn't mind Sifu and now calls himself a grandmaster. In China he is a gym teacher and learned 95% of what he knows in college. But then my Sanda sifu and Chen Zhenglei also call him Grandmaster (Da Sifu  see end of first post of thread about Da shifu )


 
My Bagua Sifu goes by Andy.  When I first started and asked him what he prefers he said Andy.  Some people still refer to him as Sifu in class (and one guy calls him Master Dale, I'm pretty sure without being told to), but he generally goes by his name.   I refer to him as Sifu or Sifu Dale when I'm talking to others about him out of respect.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Or of course mandarin:
> 
> Da Shifu


 
Just noticed this

My recommendation is to NOT use Da Shifu on mainland China. 

It is generally thrown around as either sarcasm or an insult



blindsage said:


> I think this post from the "Titles" thread in the General MA section explains the Kajukenbo context.
> 
> 
> I think it probably indicates either a lack of understanding of CMA in setting up the ranks or a conscious change of usage when the art was created.


 
My guess is that like many in the West they likely think Sigung means grandmaster....and it doesn't. 

And in China there are no grandmasters if you are talking Chinese. But if there is a westerner involved they let it go.

Actually I have had two of my sifus tell me that exactly There are no grandmasters in China and they were not talknig about skill level.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 25, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just noticed this
> 
> My recommendation is to NOT use Da Shifu on mainland China.
> 
> It is generally thrown around as either sarcasm or an insult



Nah, I agree but it is still used in terminology. However not common or heard of often as generally certain circumstances have to meet the need for such  titles.

For instance more than one Sifu from the same lineage (that are brothers) teaching the same student and acknowledging that the student is there to di as opposed to one being the Sifu and the other acknowledging the student as a nephew would warrant the option of Da Shifu. However it is as you said not even close to being common.

The same as 
Da shi xiong
er shi xiong
san shi xiong

etc...

or 
Dai Sihing
Yi Sihing
Saam Sihing.

But again relatively unheard of...


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## Tensei85 (Jun 25, 2009)

However the last 2 of the three examples are used just to clear up any misconception on my post. lol, as for Sihing's or Shi Xiong's


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## Xinglu (Aug 6, 2009)

I find it interesting that someone would want to be anything more than a "simple" Shifu.

I would also like to say, regarding those who have sigong as an actual "dan-type ranking":  Just becasue you *can* doesn't mean you *should*, or even that it is "okay."  The abuse of language and the prostitution of culture IMHO is never okay.


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## PatMunk (Aug 6, 2009)

arnisador said:


> What if your sifu was self-taught?




That would be a Big Macfu ....


Just kidding ... but sounds good ..


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## Xinglu (Aug 7, 2009)

PatMunk said:


> That would be a Big Macfu ....
> 
> 
> Just kidding ... but sounds good ..


:lool: nice, Would that then mean he would be a franchise owner of a McDojo?


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## Domino (May 6, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> And just to note Da shifu is more like grand master and I have seen a few take the title here in the good ole USA :ticked: BUT just as a note if you hear a Chinese martial artist from China call another Chinese martial artist from China a da shifu you best duck and cover if they are both legitimate martial artists because a fight is about to start. Because Da Sifu is an insult.


 
I know my sigung from my sifu, but what does 'da shifu' literally mean please?


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## Xue Sheng (May 6, 2011)

Literally

Big Teacher


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## Domino (May 9, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Literally
> 
> Big Teacher



Ok thanks. Now what does 'da sifu' mean please?


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## Xue Sheng (May 9, 2011)

See post #1


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## mograph (May 9, 2011)

It's my understanding that "sifu" is the Cantonese pronunciation, and "shifu" (roughly pronounced "sher-fu") is the Mandarin. Yes?


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## Xue Sheng (May 9, 2011)

mograph said:


> It's my understanding that "sifu" is the Cantonese pronunciation, and "shifu" (roughly pronounced "sher-fu") is the Mandarin. Yes?


 
yes


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## Domino (May 11, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> See post #1



It just says that 'da sifu is an insult', not literally what it means. I know there isn't always a literal translation however. Im far too curious.


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## Xue Sheng (May 11, 2011)

Domino said:


> It just says that 'da sifu is an insult', not literally what it means. I know there isn't always a literal translation however. Im far too curious.


 

Da sifu = Da Shifu 

both literally mean big teacher. But it can be interpreted as "Grand Master" in a sarcastic and insulting way on mainland China. Similar to calling someone hu&#257; quán xìu t&#468;i which is kind of like telling them there Kung Fu is a flowery dance with no substance. Either one, if you are Chinese talking to a Chinese MAist will get you a fight if the person you are talking to is an actual MAist. If you are a westerner calling a Chinese MAist a Da Shifu they will likely give you a pass or possibly even tell you to call them that because they know we are big on silly titles and titles equate to $$$ but I would not try the hu&#257; quán xìu t&#468;i that will get you in trouble . However I can't seem to get away with Da Shifu either.... it gets me in trouble just the same :boxing:


A lot of people spell it Sifu but the proper Pinyin is Shifu in the South, Cantonese it is pronounced Seefoo, in the north, Mandarin, it is pronounced Shrfoo. As for how it is pronounced in the other Chinese Dialects I cannot tell you.


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## clfsean (May 11, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> hu&#257; quán xìu t&#468;i



Yeah... them's fighting words, no matter the dialect... Fa Kuen Gam Toi (flower fist brocade foot) ... be ready to cowboy up.


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## WC_lun (May 11, 2011)

Thanks for all the great linquistc info!  I don't think I was ever at risk of accidently insulting another sifu by calling his kung fu flowery dance, but it is nice to know I could if I wanted to now 

I do think it is important to know where the terms we use come from and to use them as correctly as possible.  It is very difficult to be taken seriously by our Chinese friends if we don't take the time to learn these things.


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## Xue Sheng (May 11, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Yeah... them's fighting words, no matter the dialect... Fa Kuen Gam Toi (flower fist brocade foot) ... be ready to cowboy up.


 
I wouldn't try xìu hu&#257; zh&#466;u tóu either


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## clfsean (May 11, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> I wouldn't try xìu hu&#257; zh&#466;u tóu either



zh&#466;u tóu??


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## Xue Sheng (May 11, 2011)

clfsean said:


> zh&#466;u tóu??


 
I can't remember the literal translation but what it basically means is your kung fu is like an embroidered pillow, pretty on the outside but soft on the inside. Basically it&#8217;s pretty to look at but full of fluff.  

My sanda shifu liked that one in reference to a sifu in my area who shall remain nameless


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## clfsean (May 11, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> I can't remember the literal translation but what it basically means is your kung fu is like an embroidered pillow, pretty on the outside but soft on the inside. Basically its pretty to look at but full of fluff.
> 
> My sanda shifu liked that one in reference to a sifu in my area who shall remain nameless



Ah... that's similar to my insult... Flower Hand Brocade Leg


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## Xue Sheng (May 11, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Ah... that's similar to my insult... Flower Hand Brocade Leg


 
True but the embroidered pillow remark always makes me laugh

And for the record my sanda sifu has commented on the other nameless sifu's kung fu, to his face, with "hu&#257; quán xìu t&#468;i"... and no fight occured :hmm: I wonder why


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