# Kyokushin-Kai



## 7starmantis (Jan 19, 2004)

I was invited to attend a tournament of this style and not having much knowledge on this system or Japanese arts in general, I did some research. I found allot, but after reading some of these threads, I thought you guys might be able to enlighten me even more. I read that they have differing competition rules and such from some of the other major karate systems. What makes them so different? I guess I'm just interested in knowing as much as possible about this system, any input would be appreciated. 
I'm not going to be competing in the event, but am really looking forward to watching the event, and learning about this system.

7sm


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## MJS (Jan 19, 2004)

I"m not an expert on this style, but I do know a little bit about it.  Mas Oyama is one of the better known people in this art.  Its a very traditional, ridgid system.  I've seen a tourny. with these guys fighting and it was intense!  No pads, full contact.  No punches to the head, but the kicks and knees were definately flying!

Doing a search online would probably get you some good results as well.

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Jan 19, 2004)

Yeah, I found alot of information online, but its always nice to hear from those who actually practice it as well.

7sm


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## Kempo Guy (Jan 20, 2004)

BTW, although Kyokushin utilizes the knockdown rules, the rules differ slightly depending on the Kyokushin organization. If you contact the organizers of the tournament they can probably provide you with the specifics...

KG


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## pknox (Jan 20, 2004)

Good point.  After the death of Oyama, Kyokushinkai broke off into many splinter groups, including IKO, World Oyama, Ashihara and Enshin.  There were also some that broke off before his death, such as Seido Juku, run by Tadashi Nakamura and headquartered in NYC.  While all of them train full contact at some point in the training, and that is one of the things that Kyokushinkai and its offshoots is known for, there are subtle differences; some allow contact almost from day 1 (World Oyama), and some don't even let you spar at all until you have been training awhile, and ease you into the contact (Seido).  Different groups also train in different katas, with the Ashihara and Enshin groups training in more modern "fighting katas" that consist of two people.  Some groups train with weapons, and some don't.

This page does a pretty good job of listing the different Kyokushinkai offshoots.  I'm sure there are more than are listed here, but it is pretty comprehensive:

http://www.australiankyokushin.com/flavours.shtml


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## 7starmantis (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks guys, for all your help. 
Have any of you heard of the Bushido Kia schools? They are basically an organization of school under one man. I believe their organization is ABKA. Yup, found their website, ABKA. Looks like they may be a christian organization. 

7sm


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## Kempo Guy (Jan 21, 2004)

Can't say I have heard of that organization. Sorry. 


Mr. PKnox,
I just wanted to let you know that Ashihara Karate actually was founded prior to Sosai Oyama's death (I believe it was founded in 1979). According to the Ashiharakaikan they resigned from the IKO at this time, while according to the IKO the late H. Ashihara was expelled... 

BTW, after Sosai's death the IKO splintered into four different IKO branches. From what I recall the main branch is headed by Matsui Sensei.

FWIW, Ashihara and Enshin tournaments (often called Sabaki tournaments) allows for one-handed grabs and sweeps, which is not the case with Kyokushin. I believe they also allow for off-line attack from the "blind side" of the opponent... It's been a while since I've been involved with Ashihara (and Kyokushin for that matter) so my memory may be a bit off. 

KG


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## pknox (Jan 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kempo Guy _
> *FWIW, Ashihara and Enshin tournaments (often called Sabaki tournaments) allows for one-handed grabs and sweeps, which is not the case with Kyokushin. I believe they also allow for off-line attack from the "blind side" of the opponent... *



Absolutely.  The maneuvering to the blind side is what Enshin stylists refer to as "Sabaki", and is perhaps the key philosophy of their style.  In their eyes, not only does it make their attack more effective, but it also is safer in terms of defense, since you are less likely to be able to see them, and thus strike them.


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## Martin h (Feb 18, 2004)

Ashihara split from Kyokushin 1980,  The founder of enshin followed ashihara, but later split with ashihara aswell.
World Oyama was founded by Shigeru Oyama (no blood relation to the founder of Kyokushin) who left kyokushin 1980 (+/- a year or so, I cant remember).
Steve Arneil left kyokushin 1991 and founded his own kyokushin organisation called IFK. It is now quite large and well respected.
Nakamura split with kyokushin 1976 and founded seido juju. Mr Ichi split with kyokushin 1980 with ashihara, but split from ashihara a few months later to found the seidokaikan (aka shodokaikan) group (and also originaly founded the K1 tournament).
Yoshiji Soeno left kyokushin 1981 to found shidokan.
Jon Bluming was expelled from kyokushin 1967. he later started a organization that after several namechanges now call themself kyokushin budokai.  (and teach a mix of kyokushin, kickboxing and judo.

When Masutatsu Oyama (founder of kyokushin) died 1994, there was a squable about his will, and who was supposed to inherit the organisation IKO. There has been several long legal processes, and words as "forgery","yakuza" and similar has been used.
Anyway the original IKO is now split into 4 groups called simply Iko-1, iko-2(now also known as wko in japan), iko-3 and iko-4 to keep them apart, and there are 2 major other factions (kyokushin union and kyokushin-kan/Kyokushin Shogakukai) and several minor ones.


The kyokushin organisations all still has the same rules. Only difference I have seen is that some differs 2 seconds (from 3 seconds to 5 seconds) inorder to get up after a knockdown or it is scored a full win instead of a half win. No grabbing, even for a instant, is allowed nowdays.
I think world oyama is the same.
Enshin and ashihara allows a brief grab for a throw or pull off ballance.
Shidokan used to allow grabs and throws with limited ground grappling, but now divides its competition into 3 parts (1 pure knockdown, one muaithai and finaly a grappling part).
I Dont know what the seidokaikan/shodokaikan knockdown rules are, but they still do knockdown internaly, despite their involvement in k1 kickboxing.


The basic knockdown karate rules:
No protective gear allowed, exept a mouthpiece (optional) and groin guard (required).

Kicks are allowed anywhere exept groin and joints (read "knees") leg kicks are very popular, and punches are allowed everywhere exept the head and groin. Elbows are allowed,but not against the head, so they are seldom seen.
Spine is also a prohibited target area.

Winner is first to a full point. a wazari or half a point is awarded if you knock your opponent down and he gets up within 3 second (or 5 depending on organization), if it takes longer (or if he is unable to get back up) a ippon or full win is awarded.

If no point is given or both stands at one half point each, the 5 judges may give the win due to obvious superiority, but the probable result will be a extention (judges tend to want a win to be by ippon, and gladly gives extentions).
In the case of a extention any half points are removed and both fighters start from scratch.

After the 3rd extention (each round being 3 minute and extentions being either 3 or 2 minutes depending on organization) the opponents will check their weight, and if there is a 10 kg (again might differ slightly depending on organization) difference the lighter fighter will win. otherwise there will be a 4rth and final extention where the judges MUST decide on a winner. 

Also before the semifinals there will be a tamashiwara section, where everyone will be required to break a minimum nuber of planks or forefit the tournament. You MAY request to break more however, and in the case of a draw later on, you can be given a victory if you broke more planks than your opponent. But Im not entirely sure about how that works.

Knockdown fights tend to be brutal and in-elegant affairs. The parody of a knockdown bout is two large guys, resting their foreheads against eachother, trading punches and lowkicks, both refusing to block or move anywhere but forwards (moving backward might be seen as a sign by the judges that the other is "superior"). This was the way knockdown used to be, and unfortunaly still occationaly are. But it is seen less and less frequent, as footwork and sabaki (that is found in kyokushin aswell as in ashihara and enshin. only we are not quite as fanatic about it as they are) becomes more and more prominent.


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