# Sparring Question



## Jusus (Jun 6, 2007)

Help.... I took up Taekwondo to learn self defense and to get in shape, I'm 51 years old, and I am currently a green belt. I have a problem that I would like to ask other beginners if they have experience the same thing.

In my class I am constantly paired to spar with a 15 year old female redbelt. I don't mind this so much but her father is always in the class. I can't trow any good techniques for fear that I might hurt her, or cause a problem with her father, so I'm just her punching bag. Really getting tired of this, so much so I have been looking at other schools. Any body have this problem and how did they handle it.

Jusus.


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2007)

I think if she's a red belt and you've been partnered with her by an instructor as opposed to just pairing off you should actually go for the techniques and ignore the father! 
I left training last night fuming with steam coming out of my ears as I'd been paired with a relatively new guy and he refused to hit me in sparring then when I said he was to he said alright I'll just hit lightly then. I'm a female blackbelt and I felt insulted! 
This girl may well be annoyed at you not sparring back, she's a high enough standard that she should be well able to take care of herself if you sparr with her properly, if she's not to be honest that's tough! I don't mean you have to steam in but certainly you should be able to use all your techniques.
Talk to your instructor first before deciding to leave, he may have a solution that's good for both of you.


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## Ella (Jun 6, 2007)

You were raised to be a gentleman. Not to hit girls.

But you aren't doing her any favors.
I'm not saying you should side kick her as hard as you can, but she came to the martial arts for a reason, and she came to sparring class for a reason.

How would you feel if someone refused to fight you because you were too old and they didn't want to hurt you? You understood the risks when you joined, and so did she and her family.

You need to fight her.

as for causing problems with her father, I'm sure the instructor would step in.


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## MJS (Jun 6, 2007)

Jusus said:


> Help.... I took up Taekwondo to learn self defense and to get in shape, I'm 51 years old, and I am currently a green belt. I have a problem that I would like to ask other beginners if they have experience the same thing.
> 
> In my class I am constantly paired to spar with a 15 year old female redbelt. I don't mind this so much but her father is always in the class. I can't trow any good techniques for fear that I might hurt her, or cause a problem with her father, so I'm just her punching bag. Really getting tired of this, so much so I have been looking at other schools. Any body have this problem and how did they handle it.
> 
> Jusus.


 
Have you mentioned this to your instructor?  As the others stated, you don't have to send her flying across the room, but there are a few things to keep in mind: a) Being an advanced rank, she should be able to handle some contact, b) the Martial Arts involve contact, c) she is in the adult class, so I'm assuming you're not the only adult working with her, therefore, she needs to be able to adapt to the adult class.

Again, I'm not saying pound her, but there should be nothing wrong with some light to medium contact.  As for the father...don't let his presence intimidate you.  If you're encountering issues with him, bring it to the attention of the head instructor.

Mike


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2007)

Ella said:


> You were raised to be a gentleman. Not to hit girls.
> 
> But you aren't doing her any favors.
> I'm not saying you should side kick her as hard as you can, but she came to the martial arts for a reason, and she came to sparring class for a reason.
> ...


 
Absolutely spot on!


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## michaeledward (Jun 6, 2007)

Both sides in a sparring situation should exercise control. As the others have indicated, you should hit her - with control. And she should hit you - with control. If the young lady is treating you as a heavy bag, suggesting she use some control, or requesting such to an instructor, is not out of line. 

There is no doubt that what we are involved in is a contact sport. You are going to hit, and you are going to get hit. But, that doesn't equate to a free-for-all.


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## Kacey (Jun 6, 2007)

I agree with everything that's been posted already, and would like to add this:  she is there learning self-defense too.  You don't have to pound on her, but you are doing her no favors to let her think that adult men won't hit her - she needs to learn how to block realistically (which only occurs when she is hit realistically - not pounding the crap out of her, but making contact at whatever level your class mandates), or she won't learn what she's there to learn.


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## Gemini (Jun 6, 2007)

Ella said:


> You were raised to be a gentleman. Not to hit girls.
> 
> But you aren't doing her any favors.
> I'm not saying you should side kick her as hard as you can, but she came to the martial arts for a reason, and she came to sparring class for a reason.
> ...


 
Well said. This is a martial art. It involves contact. It also involves respect.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 6, 2007)

I don't disagree with any of the advice given so far ... at an intellectual level.  

As we've touched on before in similar threads, many of we poor chaps in our middle years and on, were raised in an environment where to lay violent hands on a woman was as severely frowned upon as ... well ... analogies fail me here so I'll just say that it was seen as being less than 'manly', a hefty breach of civilised behaviour.

This is not something we can put aside easily.  Even now, after many years in martial arts, I still find it very distasteful if kata requires me to have to physically 'manhandle' one of my female fellow students (especially my friend Kate, who is a tiny lass {tho' a second dan karateka as well as shodan MJER }).

I do take the points made that the ladies can quite easily take such a 'soft' approach to be disrespectful, even if they know it's actually the reverse but sometimes we 'socially conflicted' males need a break too .


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 6, 2007)

Personally I think you should mention to your instructor that it might be more constructive to have 15 year old's training with other teenagers instead of adults.  I think it is better generally for everyone to keep kid's apart from teens and teens apart from adults.  Just my 02.


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## kaizasosei (Jun 6, 2007)

i agree with everyone to not hit hard.

but who cares what sex, how old-  correct is correct, unfair is unfair. just think about it...if she's giving you a hard time, you should evaluate your own correctness but if she is out of line,  i would think that if she be sparring with someone younger, weaker or less skilled, she might be more unfair.  this is just speculation, but i mean, one cannot let anything get between clear communication. if all else fails, try to tell her what is bothering you or try to communicate your true feelings. If there is an argument don't be good and dont be bad, just do what you think is right. 
i find the idea of an onlooking father or friend to be something questionable..even if you do fight her hard and the dad gets ticked off i dont think he can do much...
my strategy is when i am fighting a woman be it physically or nonphysically, i go straight for the strongest man she is with.  
same if attacked by a group, it is the best strategy to go after the badest.   
attacking someone physically is a big deal.  it should be done with much concentration.  

another strategy, just let yourself get hit and try to work on defense...keep more distance...maybe you're fighting too much-ok maybe you are tougher..but this type of sparring is like a game..figure it out. play it..have fun. 


j


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 6, 2007)

Jusus said:


> Help.... I took up Taekwondo to learn self defense and to get in shape, I'm 51 years old, and I am currently a green belt. I have a problem that I would like to ask other beginners if they have experience the same thing.
> 
> In my class I am constantly paired to spar with a 15 year old female redbelt. I don't mind this so much but her father is always in the class. I can't trow any good techniques for fear that I might hurt her, or cause a problem with her father, so I'm just her punching bag. Really getting tired of this, so much so I have been looking at other schools. Any body have this problem and how did they handle it.
> 
> Jusus.


Stay in control, but bop her when she messes up. If her father can't handle it, that is his problem. You aren't doing anyone any favors by just standing there and getting hit. One thing you may want to work on, with things the way they are, is evasive tactics. Kickers have a real hard time kicking at a circling target; so, work in circles. Secondly, you should have, at the most, one or two things to work on (prolly a one step idea) and she either is there or she isn't. I would talk to your instructor about feeling intimidated by her father. He may want you to help her, by letting her know what she is doing may not be realistic.
Sean


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## jks9199 (Jun 6, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Personally I think you should mention to your instructor that it might be more constructive to have 15 year old's training with other teenagers instead of adults.  I think it is better generally for everyone to keep kid's apart from teens and teens apart from adults.  Just my 02.


I agree.

I think there's an issue when a 51 YOA male is regularly and apparently almost exclusively sparring 15 YOA female, no matter the relative ranks and skills.  She's not an adult; he is.  Her body is still growing and she's still getting used to it -- his isn't.  That leads to significant functional differences.

I'm not saying teens and adults should never spar each other -- but this particular setup shouldn't be the rule.  It should be the exception.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 6, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I agree.
> 
> I think there's an issue when a 51 YOA male is regularly and apparently almost exclusively sparring 15 YOA female, no matter the relative ranks and skills. She's not an adult; he is. Her body is still growing and she's still getting used to it -- his isn't. That leads to significant functional differences.
> 
> I'm not saying teens and adults should never spar each other -- but this particular setup shouldn't be the rule. It should be the exception.


I disagree. 
Sean


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## Ella (Jun 6, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I agree.
> 
> I think there's an issue when a 51 YOA male is regularly and apparently almost exclusively sparring 15 YOA female, no matter the relative ranks and skills. She's not an adult; he is. Her body is still growing and she's still getting used to it -- his isn't. That leads to significant functional differences.
> 
> I'm not saying teens and adults should never spar each other -- but this particular setup shouldn't be the rule. It should be the exception.



just a thought - but at my school, you fight nearly everyone every class.

Many schools place those 12 and over in adult classes. At our school we have kids and adults alike in sparring, and it works fine.

He should be a little lighter on her than say, a 25 year ld female red belt though.

Just as in real life, you don't get to *decide* your opponent. What if its a younger family member who's had a few too many? What if its a homicidal ax murder? What if you see one kid beating the everliving crap out of another?

By placing yourself in diverse situations in training, you'll be more prepared for whatever may happen.


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## Hawke (Jun 6, 2007)

This reminds me of the movie Knight's Tale where nobody wanted to joust the Prince, except a thatcher who pretended to be a knight.

In your TKD studio do you guys wear gear?  How hard are you guys hitting?  In my studio the lower belt dictates the speed and power to a certain degree.


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## TheOriginalName (Jun 6, 2007)

I think something that has been overlooked (although it may have been me that overlooked it).....

Before you start your next session approach the young lady and talk to her about it. Tell her that you don't want to disrespect her but that your not entirly sure about how to approch sparing with her. 

She is either going to laugh at you and say something along the lines of "do your worst" ..... in which case you've got a green light from her that she is comfortable with you.

Or she is going to take the approach as a sign of respect and you'll be able to work out something that makes you both comfortable. 

And the benifit of this is that she will feel respected, you will feel comfortable with the situation and most importantly there will be an additional connection between you both which will enhance your training. 

But then again - this is just a bit of rambling....

Oh, and good on you for being a gentleman!! There are far to few of us in life these days.


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## RED (Jun 6, 2007)

I agree about cutting loose on the higher belt. You are a green belt you should have the control needed to spar without hurting any one. But if you give it your best she will probably step up to match you and expose your open areas. Or you will expose her weak areas. It's a win win situation.

I was hesitant to cut loose on a 17yr female black belt because I was taught to never hit a girl. But I gave her a good match up and she quickly made it clear that I wasn't as good as I thought I was, with a cleverly placed cresent kick that just (purposely)missed my face. I learned I drop my hands a little when I throw a front kick. If you are uncomfortable with it, ask your instructor what s/he thinks. You might learn something.


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## Callandor (Jun 7, 2007)

Jusus said:


> ... so I'm just her punching bag. Really getting tired of this, so much so I have been looking at other schools.


By saying that you're just her punching bag, do you mean she's hitting you hard? If so, perhaps that's just her way of saying that it's ok for you - and she wants you - to hit her too. 

I had a similar experience. I was partnered with a lady brown belt. I told my self that I have to go easy on the lady specially because I'm new and I don't want to give the impression that I am aggressive or something (the black belts might just decide to spar with me instead!) We have all the gears on: Hogu, head/arm/shin guards and all; but after her kick connected to my midsection, I felt like I want to throw up. It was a very powerful kick that I was wondering if I forgot to wear a hogu. It was not the last. After seeing myself in the mirror, white as snow, I decided to give this lady a specially powerful kick. Just once, I reminded myself. Just to tell her that I kinda not like it. I threw my super duper roundhouse to her side after her axe missed my head and landed on my shoulder. It was a strong kick, for me. You know what happened to the lady? She SMILED! The kick did nothing to her. She lightened the contact a bit but hit me so hard again after going light on her. It appears to be her way of saying: It's ok to hit me, and I want you to.". Wow. Don't underestimate the ladies. After the fight I asked her if it was ok, if i hit her too hard or something. She replied something along this line: "No, it's ok. I'm used to it. Besides, if I can't take your kicks, how could I expect to take the pain of childbirth when the time comes?" I told her that she's a freak and we both laughed.


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## Tez3 (Jun 7, 2007)

It's very difficult to get over to men who don't like hitting women ( which is a good thing!) that not to hit us when doing martial arts is the most frustrating and whether they realise it or not condescending thing ever! The other night I felt so angry when that male student refused to spar with me, I felt belittled actually. If I'm honest it rankles still two days later.

It was suggested that he didn't want to hit me in the chest, he claims to be an Army boxer so could have avoided my chest if he wished. Personally I've never found 'chest' strikes too good anyway. Should I not spar with men in case I hit them in the groin? I can see what the chaps are saying about fighting with women but that arguments can also be used against fighting people of the same sex. We shouldn't want to hurt *anyone*! It's been said before and I repeat it, if we go into martial arts it should be accepted that we understand that we will spar and what that involves. No one is saying go full out but no one should be a punch bag because they don't want to hit a female sparring partner. If women have the guts to get up and spar ( believe me it's not an easy thing for women to do) then men should swallow any misgivings they have and pay their sparring partner they respect they deserve and spar with them!

I have training again tonight and I really feel like not staying for the adults session.

(On the childbirth thing btw, my idea of natural childbirth is taking my nail varnish off, no pain for me ta! )


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## K31 (Jun 7, 2007)

I think what you should do is go defensive but "hard" defensive. Block with a lot of force. This can clue the other person in that you aren't going to take a pounding but does not look like you are deliberately trying to hurt your opponent.


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## Tez3 (Jun 7, 2007)

K31 said:


> I think what you should do is go defensive but "hard" defensive. Block with a lot of force. This can clue the other person in that you aren't going to take a pounding but does not look like you are deliberately trying to hurt your opponent.


 
With the greatest respect this is still not sparring with her! I think the best thing really is to talk to the instructor and her too. You may find she's as frustrated as I am and is pushing to get you to spar properly with her. She may not be 'beating' up on you so much as trying to get you to hit back.  Also, do you have reason to think the father may get a strop on if his daughter is hit? Has he said anything before or is it just the fact he's there putting you off?


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## Cirdan (Jun 7, 2007)

When concidering how hard to go on your sparring partner, concider his/her skill level, size and build, and age. Wether the person is male or female does _not_ matter. If you got an audience, ignore them.


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## K31 (Jun 7, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> With the greatest respect this is still not sparring with her! I think the best thing really is to talk to the instructor and her too. You may find she's as frustrated as I am and is pushing to get you to spar properly with her. She may not be 'beating' up on you so much as trying to get you to hit back.  Also, do you have reason to think the father may get a strop on if his daughter is hit? Has he said anything before or is it just the fact he's there putting you off?



With respect, I agree, but neither is she sparring with him if she is intentionally trying to provoke a response. As to talking to the instructor, I'm wondering why the instructor hasn't intervened without being asked. I've seen these same things in my dojang. Someone who holds back is told by the instructor that it is okay to use the nominal amount of force for sparring and that he, the instructor will tell the student when it is too much. We also have a very tall teenage girl who's father is usually a spectator. The girl likes to throw wild techniques, can kick quite hard and has been told by the instructor on numerous occasions that if she wants to do that she can take up Olympic  sparring.


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## bluemtn (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, irregardless of what the instructor has or hasn't said-  you should approach her and the instructor.  Sometimes, instructors miss things like you not giving it your all.  Like Tez, I've gotten frustrated when someone has "toned" down because they're fighting me, and usually I'll just tell them that it's ok to do what they normally do to another sparring partner... Yes, I still get that occasional, "it's just hard to-  I've been told to never hit a girl"...  Usually with that, we were able to work something out to where we both benefitted from sparring.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 7, 2007)

K31 said:


> I think what you should do is go defensive but "hard" defensive. Block with a lot of force. This can clue the other person in that you aren't going to take a pounding but does not look like you are deliberately trying to hurt your opponent.


Any TKD class i have ever taken forbids this; because, they know I'm doing it on purpose.
Sean


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## bluemtn (Jun 7, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Any TKD class i have ever taken forbids this; because, they know I'm doing it on purpose.
> Sean


 

It's encouraged where I go, but I honestly say that he should tell her (or the instructor) what his concerns are first.  Either that, or don't worry about her father.  It is a sparring class, after all, and both are supposed to benefit from it, right?  Personally, I wouldn't be upset if someone approached me with similar concerns, but would be more so if they just didn't do what they're supposed to.  It's a hinderance for both involved.


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## RITFencing (Jun 7, 2007)

This is from a fencing standpoint, not an unarmed combat one, and we have much less chance of injury, so take it or leave it.

They're in the class, they signed up to take the sparring.  As was stated, to not treat them as such is pretty disrespectful.  I don't like it when people go easy on me, so I return the favor to everyone else.  It may not be easy for you, but if you can't spar with everyone there, don't show up to the class.

Personally, I don't have much trouble fencing with girls or kids, because I've done enough mixed competition that I've been eliminated from tournaments by women and children.  Losing to a 12 year old when you really want to win will really help cure you of any tendancy to "go easy on the poor little things."  Nowadays I tend to dehumanize my opponents a bit, and not just so that it's easier to go after them with a pointy metal stick.  I don't see a man, woman, child, whatever, on the other end of the strip.  They aren't black, white, asian, hispanic, whatever.  They have no gender, race, creed or religion.  I see a moving target holding a weapon.  It helps on many levels (for me at least) to be able to think like that.  I'm not trying to physically injure them, and I don't hit any harder or softer than most other fencers, but beyond that, if they don't like it, I'm not forcing them to be there.

Again, this is not for the same activity, so your mileage may vary.


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## Hawke (Jun 7, 2007)

About blocking hard....

When an opponent uses a roundhouse, I use a knee to their shin.
When an opponent uses a front kick, I use my shin against their feet.

It only hurts them if they come in hard.  Not sure which blocks are acceptable or unacceptable at your TKD dojo.  I train with people with an understanding that we take care of each other.  I help you to be a better MA and you help me be a better MA and if any of us starts acting like a jerk we will straight up and tell you.  We get bruises, but we are still buddies.  Danny Insanto once said, "If you swim, you will get wet."

Hope things clear up for you.  Your dojo should be a safe place to train.  Better to cry in the dojo so you can laugh in the streets.


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 7, 2007)

Jusus said:


> Help.... I took up Taekwondo to learn self defense and to get in shape, I'm 51 years old, and I am currently a green belt. I have a problem that I would like to ask other beginners if they have experience the same thing.
> 
> In my class I am constantly paired to spar with a 15 year old female redbelt. I don't mind this so much but her father is always in the class. I can't trow any good techniques for fear that I might hurt her, or cause a problem with her father, so I'm just her punching bag. Really getting tired of this, so much so I have been looking at other schools. Any body have this problem and how did they handle it.
> 
> Jusus.


 
The situation may be something that you are getting tired of but, in the end, it one you are creating.  She's a red belt, your schools spars.  She's probably been hit before and clearly her father had no problems then.

You need to get yourself past the thoughts that you might hurt her or offend her father and just spar.  Better for you and better for her.


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## searcher (Jun 7, 2007)

IMO, you are both not getting what you need here.   You are both there to train andto gain skills that you both think are important.   If you are not sparringwith her and you are being a mobile bag, she is not getting the contact that she needs to advance and you are not gettig the chance to work on your skills.   Don't think or worry about the father.   If he says something about you going hard with her you need to tell him that this IS a contact sport it is essential to hit and be hit.   All that is happening, is she is being turned into a paper tiger.   It is truly a disservice to her and to you.   

I am not saying you should try to destroy and hurt or destroy the girl, but you need to go hard for you and for her.   If the father has a problem with this, he needs to put her in a dance school and not a TKD school.


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## zDom (Jun 11, 2007)

When I spar, contact level is always determined by my opponent: I am happy to go as light or as heavy as they desire.

Intensity, however, is always there. I always throw enough techniques to push them, to keep them challenged.

But then, I also back off now and then, give them a chance to initiate some attacks.

I think there has to be a balance between overwhelming them and cheating them of a good challenge.


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## Josh D (Jun 13, 2007)

TheOriginalName said:


> I think something that has been overlooked (although it may have been me that overlooked it).....
> 
> Before you start your next session approach the young lady and talk to her about it. Tell her that you don't want to disrespect her but that your not entirly sure about how to approch sparing with her.
> 
> ...


 
I believe this was an important piece to this whole puzzle and may have gotten over looked...  I think this is the most respectful approach and will be the end all solution.  It gives a chance for mutual respect and prevents the problem Tez encountered where the sparring partner simply refused to spar...  Its one thing not to hit a female.. but that has its own context.. its not as if you are out to batter a female with rage or malice as your intent...  This is a controlled training within a controlled enviroment.

I have never hit a woman outside of the confines of the dojo... but when in the dojo.. the controlled firmness that I use on the guys is the same firmness I use on females... and they give it back to the same degree... If the hits are to aggressive against guy or girl.. they are sure to tell you and likewise you shouldn't be afraid to speak up if you think that their hits are a bit out of control or to physical for sparring... Control is not that easy to keep consistant and we all have slip ups where we perform an action with more power than we meant to put behind it....

Anyway I done ranting on. lol Good luck and just keep in mind that she isn't a child so don't be afraid to talk to her.. Only she knows what she is capable of enduring.. not her father or teacher.


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## NDNgirl4ever (Jun 13, 2007)

I agree with everyone else. I'm a 19 year old female in karate. I spar with men and would feel insulted and cheated if a man was afraid to spar with me because I'm a girl. I'm in the class to learn to defend myself, after all. You are not doing her any favors by totally holding back. You're both there to learn to defend yourselves, right? How can she learn to defend herself properly if you don't throw proper techinques at her? She needs to learn to defend against attacks, and how to take a hit. Any person on the street who attacks her isn't going to be gentle. She and her family are aware of what they are doing and have agreed to take the risk. If she or her father object to her being hit, they have no buisness taking a martial arts class. You need to use control with all sparring partners, no matter their age or gender, but you should not be afraid to use the techiques you've been taught.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 13, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I don't disagree with any of the advice given so far ... at an intellectual level.
> 
> As we've touched on before in similar threads, many of we poor chaps in our middle years and on, were raised in an environment where to lay violent hands on a woman was as severely frowned upon as ... well ... analogies fail me here so I'll just say that it was seen as being less than 'manly', a hefty breach of civilised behaviour.
> 
> ...


Thank you, *Suke*. Have known this for a long time, but could never seem to articulate it without fear of offending (and my daughter would be the first to roast me if she found out I butchered the explanation).


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## kidswarrior (Jun 13, 2007)

zDom said:


> When I spar, contact level is always determined by my opponent: I am happy to go as light or as heavy as they desire.
> 
> Intensity, however, is always there. I always throw enough techniques to push them, to keep them challenged.
> 
> ...



I agree *zDom*. But you're an experienced and skilled fighter. The OP mentioned a green belt. Remember when? :ultracool Much more difficult to keep it all straight, don't you think?


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## zDom (Jun 14, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> The OP mentioned a green belt. Remember when? :ultracool Much more difficult to keep it all straight, don't you think?



True ... good point.


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