# Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard



## glad2bhere

Dear Folks: 

I apologize in advance, but frankly I have been having a lot of trouble cross-referencing various themes in the two mega-strings. I Thought I would tease out a single thought and give an example here, off to one side, for those who might be interested. 

You will recall that on one of the Strings we had a series of Basic or Introductory Kicking Techniques. Each of five groups had their own take on the role of kicking in Hapkido and their own catalog or curriculum of introductory kicking techniques. 

In hand with this someone else pointed up that people have different ideas of what Hapkido is such that not everyone gets taught the same thing and there are recorded cases of people putting together material from various sources and simply applying the label "hapkido". 

I think we can identify a simple set of basic skills that a person need have from cross-referencing the material of existing systems and identifying commonalities. I have published a result of using this approach on the kicking techniques from the five lists. According to my findings, a person who reports having acquired a 1st BB in the Hapkido arts would be expected to be proficient in the following kicking techniques. 



1.Scoop Kick                                

2.Side Kick                                   

3.Inside Swivel Kick                      

4.Outside Swivel Kick (Circle Kick)                   

5.Heel Hook Kick                          

6.Heel Thrust Kick                         

7.High Point Hick (High Toe Kick)                           

8.Axe Kick                                  

9.Slap Kick                       

10. Back Kick                                 

11.Knee Strike   

Let me say that these would represent the absolute MINIMUM kicking skills but represent the result of the sort of identification process I had in mind. Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere

Dear Folks: 

I have correlated the striking techniques of Dojunim Kim, Kwang Sik Myung, He Young Kimm, In Hyuk Suh and Joo Bang Lee. I can only report that things were a bit more problematic. Apparently all of these folks agree that using the hands is important, but there is less concensus on how that is to be done. Allow me to explain. 

The following are the techniques that either everybody agrees on or four out of the five agree on. 

1.)Hammerfist Strike                                   
2.)Ridgehand Strike    
3.)Backfist Strike                                   
4.)Knifehand Strike                                       
5.)Spearhand Strike
6.) Palm Heel Strike
7.) Five Finger Strike

Now everybody agrees that there needs to be a Forward Strike of some sort. Candidates for this position include:

a.)Forward Punch
b.) Single Knuckle Punch
c.) Middle Knuckle Punch 
d.) Four Knuckle Punch (Bear Claw)

Now everybody agrees that there needs to be a Backhand Strike of some sort. Candidates for this position include:

a.)	Simple Backhand 
b.)	Simple Backfist 
c.)	Wrist strike

In addition, everybody agrees that there needs to be a rising strike but again cannot agree on the biomechanics. Candidates in this category are. 

a.)	Rising Punch 
b.)	Rising 4-knuckle strike
c.)	Rising Spearhand 


Lastly, everybody agrees that the elbow is an excellent weapon to use, but once again cant agree how. Candidates for this category in order of popularity are: 

a.)	Forward Elbow Strike
b.)	Rising Elbow Strike
c.)	Downwards Elbow Strike 
d.)	Sidewards Elbow Strike 
e.)	Rearward Elbow Strike. 

If anyone were to ask me my personal opinion I would opt that a person representing themselves as a 1st BB would be facile in ALL 22 hand techniques listed. I don't think that minimum is too much to ask.

Thoughts? Comments? Remarks that need to be made? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere

If you all think I'm gonna pull over because no one is responding, guess again!   

Here are some things to consider on this theme while you are sitting in the bathroom. 

1.) YMK Hapkido uses Dan Jon (Dynamic or Diaphramatic) Breathing. 
Should this be part of the minimal standards for a 1st Dan BB in Hapkido? If so, we have FIVE different executions. What would the BB need to know? Would they be expecvted to know ANY breathing material? 

2.) We talked about breakfalls. I see knowing Back, Side, Front and Rolling. Anyone? 

3.) The worst will be identifying the minimal standards for grappling. I have 10 candidates from the WHF Kebonsu plus a few others but still plan on correlating the five sources I am using right now. Anyone have other thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

Looks good to me.  I don't know if I've learned all of the kicks and strikes, but I'd say the vast majority look good.  

I'd like to see some essay or oral questions that you would pose to the students.  Like, "explain the water theory", etc.  Also, have the students pick a few techniques and explain them, as they would explain the technique to a white belt. 

Jeremy


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## ajs1976

If someone has a minute.  Could you give me descriptions of kicks 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 9.

thanks


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## glad2bhere

Here goes. Quick and simple (and kicking with the back leg):

3.Inside Swivel Kick: Snap the leg forward as though executing a front snap kick at the partners knee. Just before making contact, snap the foot 90 degree to the side with the toes pointing in that direction. Contact is made with the lead edge of the heel to the knee cap. Motion is not unlike that of the Low Toe Kick.  

4.Outside Swivel Kick: Rear leg scribes a large arc from the outside the area between the partners to Inside --- and through that area. Contact to the knee is made with the lead edge of the heel but again some people use the toe and yet others use the side of the foot. 

5.Heel Hook Kick: Using the heel of the foot hook behind the partners knee or into the side of the thigh.  

6.Heel Thrust Kick: Same as front snap kick except that impact is made by thrusting the heel into the target.  

7.High Point Hick (High Toe Kick) Essentially a Front Snap Kick done with the toes tightly bunched. 

9.Slap Kick :  Essentially an Outside Cresent Kick making contact with the top of the foot in a brief arc rather than the side of the foot in a large arc. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## ajs1976

thanks


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## glad2bhere

Rather than move on and try to single out this kind of blocking or that kind of falling I think its better to identify the most fundamental techniques that a 1st Dan in Hapkido would know. I think it follows that an authntic practitioner would knew a pretty wide variety of these throws in application bu to the best of my ability these techniques and their variations are characteristic in all of the sources I am citing. 

1.) Arm Bar----- "knifehand to elbow" 

2.) Wrist Throw--- "Turning Leaf"/Kote gashi

3.) Wrist Lock

4.) Four Directions Throw 

5.) Verticle Wrist Lock/Forward Wrist Throw 

6.) Single Leg Sweep 

7.) Hammerlock

8.) Elbow-wrist Throw/ Figure-four techniques 

9.) Hip Throw 

10.) Shoulder Throw 

In addition I think that four pins are also universal to all of the resources. 

1.) Forward Elbow Pin 

2.) Rearward Elbow Pin 

3.) Outer Wrist Pin 

4.) Hammerlock Pin 

Once again the key to this material is "minimal" meaning that anyone who presents himself as a 1st dan in Hapkido could reasonably be expected to know these techniques, being able to apply and receive their execution. Thoughts?   Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B

I think this list is more than reasonable,Bruce. I am sure you have bumped up against BB's who have only known half this stuff,as have I.

Just one comment...."Shiho Nage" Jap. lit. "Four Corner Throw"  As I am sure you already knew that...  Where's that one thread again?......


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## glad2bhere

OK. I consider what follows to be the single toughest part of setting an absolute minimum standard for Hapkido practice. This also has a helluva lot to do with what started this project in the first place. I will say one more time that what I am speaking of are minimum standards of performance for a person who states they are a 1st dan BB in Hapkido. 

Here are what I consider Nae Bup-- or Falling Techniques that a 1st Dan ought to be able to perform. 

1.) Back Fall 

2.) Side Fall 

3.) Forward Roll 

4.) Forward Fall. 

I have not mentioned sit-outs, safety falls or air rolls as these tend to be more specific to certain groups. I have also not specified a surface of any particular type. I have also not mentioned "free-falls" such as backwards off a chair or tumbling over a series of people or obstacles. 
Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey

I think flip-falls (air rolls?  I'm thinking about the fall you need to safely be hip-thrown) have to be included.


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## glad2bhere

I agree. 

When someone executes a hip throw or shoulder throw you are actually doing a side breakfall albeit from a greater height. An air roll is essentially an acrobatic you might do in mid-air to relieve a sharp twist or torque on a wrist, elbow or shoulder joint. I put air-rolls in the same category as forward and backward flips. They are neat if you can do them but the art itself can be practiced safely without them just the same. Hope this helps. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD

Bruce,

I think this idea has alot of merit.

1. How will it ever happen?
2. Who decides how many and what techniques?
3. Governing body needed to rank the people with these minimun skills?

A couple years back KIHAP headed up by Ed Annibale tried to do such a thing and I thought it was a good idea but politics and such blew it all apart in a year and everyone envolved was burnt out from trying.

Talking is great but who could actually make it work?


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## ajs1976

Right now, I think this listing is for discussion purposes.  It is easier for two people to compare the difference in their respective styles of Hapkido, if they already have a basic understanding of what is common to all styles of Hapkido.


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## glad2bhere

".....A couple years back KIHAP headed up by Ed Annibale tried to do such a thing and I thought it was a good idea but politics and such blew it all apart in a year and everyone envolved was burnt out from trying.

Talking is great but who could actually make it work?...." 

The short answer is "*we would*". 

The thing that has undone Hapkido practitioners over and over again is the matter of "who is going to be in charge." Read that as "who gets the bragging rights", or "who gets the revenues" or "who get to tell other people what to do". Has not worked yet. Everybody agrees that its not GOING to work. OK. So maybe we get a clue, right?  What if NOBODY is "in charge"? What if a standard is just put out there in the public domain for general use (kind of like that Internet Browser that everyone is always pitching-in on). Nobody is bound or required to use the standard. 

But, 

what if a person says that they teach Hapkido and people don't know what hapkido is? 

or

what if a person says they hold a particular rank in Hapkido and want to apply for a position with an organization. 

or 

what if a person presents to participate in a Hapkido event stating that they are capable of participating without needless risk of injury to himself or his partner.  A standard is out there to be used should someone care to. Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B

I think you hit it when you said "a standard is out there to be used should someone care to."

People that will care about a standard probably don't need it,no? I'll venture that anyone who doesn't care about a standard on their own,probably is teaching/learning the type of Hapkido we don't want to be associated with.

How do you explain the notion that "we would"? On the short term? By policing ourselves?(not that I'm in a position to do this)


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## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ".....A couple years back KIHAP headed up by Ed Annibale tried to do such a thing and I thought it was a good idea but politics and such blew it all apart in a year and everyone envolved was burnt out from trying.
> 
> Talking is great but who could actually make it work?...."
> 
> The short answer is "*we would*".
> 
> The thing that has undone Hapkido practitioners over and over again is the matter of "who is going to be in charge." Read that as "who gets the bragging rights", or "who gets the revenues" or "who get to tell other people what to do". Has not worked yet. Everybody agrees that its not GOING to work. OK. So maybe we get a clue, right? What if NOBODY is "in charge"? What if a standard is just put out there in the public domain for general use (kind of like that Internet Browser that everyone is always pitching-in on). Nobody is bound or required to use the standard.
> 
> But,
> what if a person says that they teach Hapkido and people don't know what hapkido is?
> 
> or
> 
> what if a person says they hold a particular rank in Hapkido and want to apply for a position with an organization.
> 
> or
> 
> what if a person presents to participate in a Hapkido event stating that they are capable of participating without needless risk of injury to himself or his partner. A standard is out there to be used should someone care to. Thoughts? Comments?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

I think the HKD world could benefit from such a standard, but if no one really follows it in thier schools and gets rank by it and no association honors the outline it's only academic. 

The idea of KIHAP was a standard that would cross the boundries of associations. Once accepted and endorsed by any governing body that body would in fact accept the others ranking without exception. 

It was a very lofty undertaking and at the time I was really into it.
HIKAP didn't have the right people or leadership so it fell apart. 

If people like Hal, Rudy, JR, and a maybe a few other westerners got behind it and said whoever meets these standards will qualify for rank from any of us any time that would be real unity and we'd have something worth while going for. 

I also think Hapkido could become more popular with a unified core rather than such wide devisions as we now have.

Get the leaders together and there you have it.


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## glad2bhere

The problem is when it continues to come back to "who" is going to regulate, be in control or tell people what to do. I guess I am not understand why anyone has to "be in charge". I find it interesting that despite the fact that the process has already begun, the point that continually gets raised is "who is going to give us permission to do this." Am I to understand that you will do something good for the Hapkido arts just as soon as someone tells you its OK? Am I to understand that you can share an opinion about the authenticity of a rank or the integrity of an art, but should it come down to simply agreeing that a person of "X" level of competence would reasonably be expected to know and do "Y" well you balk? Guess I am not sure what your motives are for not participating in even a hypotheical process. Do you, yourself, not see something odd about this? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> The problem is when it continues to come back to "who" is going to regulate, be in control or tell people what to do. I guess I am not understand why anyone has to "be in charge". I find it interesting that despite the fact that the process has already begun, the point that continually gets raised is "who is going to give us permission to do this." Am I to understand that you will do something good for the Hapkido arts just as soon as someone tells you its OK? Am I to understand that you can share an opinion about the authenticity of a rank or the integrity of an art, but should it come down to simply agreeing that a person of "X" level of competence would reasonably be expected to know and do "Y" well you balk? Guess I am not sure what your motives are for not participating in even a hypotheical process. Do you, yourself, not see something odd about this?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce, 

You and I give our authority to this project Ok. 

We each have our own students and we give our own rank no WHF or KHF whatever you accept mine and I yours. We don't care who likes it or not.

Is that good enough for you to resign from the WHF right now and completly follow your own ideas?

Appoint yourself Doju or I'll appoint you Doju and we'll go from there.

That's real everything else is pure B-ll Sh-t!

Are you man enough?

Are you ready?

Only answer *YES or NO* without qualifications


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## glad2bhere

American HKD said:
			
		

> Bruce,
> 
> You and I give our authority to this project Ok.
> 
> We each have our own students and we give our own rank no WHF or KHF whatever you accept mine and I yours. We don't care who likes it or not.
> 
> Is that good enough for you to resign from the WHF right now and completly follow your own ideas?
> 
> Appoint yourself Doju or I'll appoint you Doju and we'll go from there.
> 
> That's real everything else is pure B-ll Sh-t!
> 
> Are you man enough?
> 
> Are you ready?
> 
> Only answer *YES or NO* without qualifications



Lets take your thoughts point by point. 

Who the heck is talking about givng rank or leaving our respective organizations? 

Who is talking about giving rank?  

And why do I have to call everything else BS? 

And what does any of this have to do with being a "man" or being "ready". 

What is it that you think is going on here? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Lets take your thoughts point by point.
> 
> Who the heck is talking about givng rank or leaving our respective organizations?
> 
> Who is talking about giving rank?
> 
> And why do I have to call everything else BS?
> 
> And what does any of this have to do with being a "man" or being "ready".
> 
> What is it that you think is going on here?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

I said 
.......Talking is great but who could actually make it work?...." 

You said
The short answer is "*we would*". 

My point.

Live by what you want to see happen and start the movement.

No offense about your manhood just a figure of speech.


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## Kumbajah

I think that Bruce is advocating "open source" Hapkido. No one person owns it, everyone is responsible for it. You are given a base and you modify to your needs and offer any modification back to the community. 

From http://www.oit.duke.edu/pubtrain/glossary.html

"Open source software is distributed with the source code freely available for alteration and customization. The idea behind open source software is the exact opposite of the old "too many cooks spoil the broth" adage. Theoretically, through the collective work of many programmers, the resulting software can become more useful and free of holes and bugs. One of the most well-known pieces of open source software is Linux."

This starts to be Hapkido with a jeet kun do attitude (difference - you can't disregard the base). Here is the philosophy, history, kicks, locks, throws, pins, and falls now see what you can come with. Now it integrate "new" material back in - does it follow the precepts laid out in the base. "Does it fit in?" 

How to implement - imho - all you need is a name. If people say hey thats something that I can use they adopt it. So if you walk into any Hapkido dojang you can ask do you follow "open source Hapkido" precepts. If so you know at least the base. There will be differences but you will be familiar with the environment. 

I propose we call it the Jackson Hapkido Base. In honor/ in the sprit of of JR West's Hapkido gathering. It attracts Hapkidoin from different backgrounds to learn and share with each other in an ego free environment. We can all see "upgrades / new features" twice a year. 

Brian


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## kwanjang

American HKD said:
			
		

> ...If people like Hal, Rudy, JR, and a maybe a few other westerners got behind it and said whoever meets these standards will qualify for rank from any of us any time that would be real unity and we'd have something worth while going for.
> 
> I also think Hapkido could become more popular with a unified core rather than such wide devisions as we now have.
> 
> Get the leaders together and there you have it.



Hello everyone:
As it stands today, I would not hesitate to accept rank from the folks you mentioned.  There are a few more, but there are many more from whom I would not accept rank of any kind.  Still, even the folks you mentioned have different components to their particular version of Hap Ki Do; however, I see the same fundamentals and that is good enough for me.  To me, you either move like a Hap Ki Do practitioner, or you practice Hap Ki Do with the basic motion of another art.  In the latter case, IMHO, you are not doing Hap Ki Do no matter how hard you work at it.


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## American HKD

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello everyone:
> As it stands today, I would not hesitate to accept rank from the folks you mentioned. There are a few more, but there are many more from whom I would not accept rank of any kind. Still, even the folks you mentioned have different components to their particular version of Hap Ki Do; however, I see the same fundamentals and that is good enough for me. To me, you either move like a Hap Ki Do practitioner, or you practice Hap Ki Do with the basic motion of another art. In the latter case, IMHO, you are not doing Hap Ki Do no matter how hard you work at it.


Rudy,

Well said I agree and the essense of Hapkido stands out no matter who teaches it.

Lastly as you say here ........*I see the same fundamentals and that is good enough for me.* To me, you either move like a Hap Ki Do practitioner........

Bruce and I think that a core set of tecniques/principles were agreed on by a few leaders that solve many problems in HKD 

Stop rank issues
Stop Political problems
Include more than exclude
Stop everyone and thier mother claiming to know/teach HKD

It's a great thing!

Who else will agree to this concept and turn it into something as Rudy says he would?


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## whalen

American HKD said:
			
		

> Bruce,
> 
> I think the HKD world could benefit from such a standard, but if no one really follows it in thier schools and gets rank by it and no association honors the outline it's only academic.
> 
> The idea of KIHAP was a standard that would cross the boundries of associations. Once accepted and endorsed by any governing body that body would in fact accept the others ranking without exception.
> 
> It was a very lofty undertaking and at the time I was really into it.
> HIKAP didn't have the right people or leadership so it fell apart.
> 
> 
> Get the leaders together and there you have it.




Now that we are on the subject of KiHAP very interesting concept. Let me give a little history About 7-8 years ago a good friend of mine called me and asked if I could help an individual that had left John Pelligrini after a major law-suite  over Combat Hapkido This individual was a third Dan in combat Hapkido.

Now here is the interesting part he asked me for help and told me of his situation and he sounded very sincere so I told him to come and visit my dojang And I would work with him FREE OF CHARGE if could not make it veido his Hapkido so we would save time and I could evaluate where he needed work and how we would help him he stated he would call back as soon as the opportunity arose to come visit.

Well the very next issue of TKDT he was now the founder of a new AiKi-jitsu system 8th dan, I found this very amusing and laughed told it to a few of my Black Belts whom asked me "Why do you trust every jerk that calls you about needing help in Hapkido"

All I could do is shrug and shake my head "This is  what I do" Then as time passed Ed Anniable was in TKDT several times with Schumacher and (The group of I promote you, you promote me and we take a picture society)

He then sent me an email about his new idea of KIHAP and asked if i would want to join. I questioned him about his contact he made before and I questioned about his recent promotions and he stated I was mistaken He was already a sixth dan in Hapkido when he affiliated with Pelligrini..

This makes sense You go from sixth Dan Back to third to belong to a group that is run By a video Hapkido Charlatan I knew where he was coming from and I told him so.

He then told me I was the Jerk Everyone told him i was "Oh well I can live with that"

Is this what Hapkido has become ? I think not or at least Hope not.

Hal Whalen


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## American HKD

whalen said:
			
		

> Now that we are on the subject of KiHAP very interesting concept. Let me give a little history About 7-8 years ago a good friend of mine called me and asked if I could help an individual that had left John Pelligrini after a major law-suite over Combat Hapkido This individual was a third Dan in combat Hapkido.
> 
> Now here is the interesting part he asked me for help and told me of his situation and he sounded very sincere so I told him to come and visit my dojang And I would work with him FREE OF CHARGE if could not make it veido his Hapkido so we would save time and I could evaluate where he needed work and how we would help him he stated he would call back as soon as the opportunity arose to come visit.
> 
> Well the very next issue of TKDT he was now the founder of a new AiKi-jitsu system 8th dan, I found this very amusing and laughed told it to a few of my Black Belts whom asked me "Why do you trust every jerk that calls you about needing help in Hapkido"
> 
> All I could do is shrug and shake my head "This is what I do" Then as time passed Ed Anniable was in TKDT several times with Schumacher and (The group of I promote you, you promote me and we take a picture society)
> 
> He then sent me an email about his new idea of KIHAP and asked if i would want to join. I questioned him about his contact he made before and I questioned about his recent promotions and he stated I was mistaken He was already a sixth dan in Hapkido when he affiliated with Pelligrini..
> 
> This makes sense You go from sixth Dan Back to third to belong to a group that is run By a video Hapkido Charlatan I knew where he was coming from and I told him so.
> 
> He then told me I was the Jerk Everyone told him i was "Oh well I can live with that"
> 
> Is this what Hapkido has become ? I think not or at least Hope not.
> 
> Hal Whalen


That's why there was leadership troubles and bad blood lack of respect and the thing did'nt work.

Hal 

Why not set up a basic standard as we've been suggesting.

Are you into it?


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## whalen

American HKD said:
			
		

> Bruce,
> If people like Hal, Rudy, JR, and a maybe a few other westerners got behind it and said whoever meets these standards will qualify for rank from any of us any time that would be real unity and we'd have something worth while going for.
> 
> I also think Hapkido could become more popular with a unified core rather than such wide devisions as we now have.
> 
> Get the leaders together and there you have it.




Now this sounds great Now lets say we three decide there should be a time in-grade something all three of us believe in. Would you abide no questions asked ?

And we all set the rules You train with us and no-one else Would you agree?
 Or if we stated that since we make the judgment and not you , form NOW on we will test your Black Belt Students not you....

It would not work ...... In reality I HAVE NEVER  promoted someone that was not a student of mine or my students , student We are not a Hapkido clearing house .  somewhere along the way Everyone forgot to mention Loyalty To you instructor He taught you plain and simple.

Over and Over i have heard those money hungry koreans all they want is to be in control and take our money for testing and such.

Being an electrician has it ups and downs it is the nature of the Business or the lively hood i have chosen . I am  presently unemployed since june this happens and this is how it goes.

My instructor found out about this and called me and offered to send me money to help me out since He considers me his son, I have not paid this man tuition since 1977 and i lived with him and his family on more than one occasion one time for four months when i went through the KHA instructors course in 1982.

Now should I abandon him because he did not train under choi ? Or he is not teaching what Choi originally taught ?

Master Won has a little saying : If your Father is Ugly do you trade him for better looking father ? Or is he your Father just the same Family is Family and I am considered his and I do nothing that will ruin the bond we have.

Hal Whalen


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## glad2bhere

Dear Brian: 

Thank you very, very much for adding that piece. I was only vaguely aware of that whole process, and while it is exactly the model I had in mind I would not have been able to express things as clearly as you did. 

BTW:  I had been casting around for some type of "label" to give it and think the idea of using "Jackson" as a way of invoking a non-partisan, non-style sort of criteria would be excellent. I think before we would make a final decision it would be worthwhile to check with Master West so that we don't suggest that such a project automatically carries his support or participation. I had also thought about identifying it as the "Choi Syllabus of Minimal Standards" but was likewise reluctant to risk people drawing the wrong conclusion. 

One other thing...... I'm still uncomfortable about people viewing such a project as a way of setting promotional standards. Does anyone have thoughts on how to move away from this before it gets too deeply entrenched? Thoughts?  Anyone? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere

whalen said:
			
		

> Now this sounds great Now lets say we three decide there should be a time in-grade something all three of us believe in. Would you abide no questions asked ?
> 
> And we all set the rules You train with us and no-one else Would you agree?
> Or if we stated that since we make the judgment and not you , form NOW on we will test your Black Belt Students not you....
> 
> It would not work ...... In reality I HAVE NEVER  promoted someone that was not a student of mine or my students , student We are not a Hapkido clearing house .  somewhere along the way Everyone forgot to mention Loyalty To you instructor He taught you plain and simple.
> 
> Over and Over i have heard those money hungry koreans all they want is to be in control and take our money for testing and such.
> 
> Being an electrician has it ups and downs it is the nature of the Business or the lively hood i have chosen . I am  presently unemployed since june this happens and this is how it goes.
> 
> My instructor found out about this and called me and offered to send me money to help me out since He considers me his son, I have not paid this man tuition since 1977 and i lived with him and his family on more than one occasion one time for four months when i went through the KHA instructors course in 1982.
> 
> Now should I abandon him because he did not train under choi ? Or he is not teaching what Choi originally taught ?
> 
> Master Won has a little saying : If your Father is Ugly do you trade him for better looking father ? Or is he your Father just the same Family is Family and I am considered his and I do nothing that will ruin the bond we have.
> 
> Hal Whalen



I guess it will take folks a little bit of time to get used to a new way of doing business, were this to get off the ground. Please take a look at Brians Post a bit earlier. 

This is not a matter of "people abiding" or "obeying" something. I hope noone is saying that this is suppose to be the bassis for promotion. All I am thinking about right now is identifying a set of minimal standards that we Hapkido practiioners can consider as a common core from which we can communicate. As things progress, maybe someone who thinks the Base is productive will kick in an argument for including the Crescent Kick, or some throw not already in the Base. Soone else might want to take something out as not truely representative of Hapkido or most practitioners. What would truely be great is that when we start to talk about Hapkido techniques we could have a common reference point to identify a technique rather than five unique descriptions of the same kick or throw. Might could be we will even work out some common titles for the techniques. Sorry to keep banging away on this theme, but I really get nervous when folks start talking about authority and lines of power when they don't really have anything to do with this. 

BTW: Does anyone have a suggestion for a central location for this project? Its a bit spread-out right now because I have so many Nets where I have been talking about this. Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## whalen

American HKD said:
			
		

> That's why there was leadership troubles and bad blood lack of respect and the thing did'nt work.
> 
> Hal
> 
> Why not set up a basic standard as we've been suggesting.
> 
> Are you into it?



These are the requirements i use 7th Gueb 
Demonstration 103 techniques 6-7 months 

22 hand strikes 
12 kicks     
8 basic blocks 
10 Defense against punches with counter strikes 
10  defense against punches with kicks  
10 same side break aways           
10 cross wrist break aways 
10 kicks against wrist grabs  

The requirement for 6th Gueb
Demonstration 53 techniques 3 months minimum from last test

9 additional kicks  
10 throws against wrist grab 
18 basic joint locks against wrist grab
14 basic cross wrist grabs with joint-locks

The requirements for 5th gueb 3 months minimum form  6th gueb
demonstration 60 techniques

20 more kicks 
35 defenses against clothing grabs multiple areas
5 defenses against hair grabs

The requirements for 4th Gueb 3 month s minimum from 5th gueb
Demonstration 70 techniques

20 double kicks 
20 defense against punches with throws and joint-locks
10 handshake defense
5 defense against rear wrist grabs
15 intermediate level defense against clothing grabs

The requirements for 3rd gueb 3 months minimum from 4th gueb
Demonstration of 72 techniques 

20 hopping or sliding kicks
17 Defense against clothing grabs from rear
15 intermediate wrist breaks
20 Defenses against body grabs from rear

The requirements for 2nd gueb  3 months minimum since 3 gueb
Demonstration of 75 techniques

20 jump double kicks 
20 Defense against front body grabs
25 Defenses against  Kicks
10 defense against two hands grabbing two wrists

The requirements for 1st gueb  3 months minimum since 2nd gueb
Demonstration 59 Techniques

12 Flying kicks
10 two hands grabbing one wrist
12 advanced wrist breaks
10 from the side wrist grabs
3  defense  from underside wrist grab to the chest

The requirements for 1st Dan  minimum 6 months since 1st gueb test 
17 special kicks 
36 knife defense 
15 offensive techniques
10 choking techniques

For first dan test and every test you have to demonstrate all of the previous techniques as seemed necessary by the testing board Certain kicks are eliminated Do to age or physical limitations

The requirements for  2nd Dan  minimum 1 since 1st dan
Demonstration of 133 techniques

20 Black Belt Level against clothing grabs
20  "      "       "     against  wrist grabs
15  "       "      "     against  punches
21  "      "      "      against kicks
8   special kicks 
11  seated defense 
11  lying on back 
20 combination joint locks


The requirements for 3rd Dan 2 year since 2nd dan
Demonstration of 150 techniques

16 defense against pistol
 30  defense against joint locks/ counter joint locks
short stick technique 
20 technique against punch
20 techniques  against kick
20 against clothing/ body grabs
20  escorting/ arresting  technique
20 long pole technique

The requirements for 4th Dan Master minimum 3 years since 3 Dan
Demonstration of 125 techniques

 20  Cane  technique against  kick 
 20  Cane  technique against punch
 20  cane  technique  against  grabs
 15  sword offensive sword attack
 15 defensive sword
 15 defense two people grabbing wrist 
 15 defense two people grabbing multiple areas of body not just wrist.

these are the requirements of our Dojang all were taught by my masters in korea and many that i learned for Choi,Han Young whom i train with while stationed in texas . I also have not included Tan jon breathing , it is done every class Also falling techniques this is a given.


I also did not mention pressure points for attack or healing and body alignment for chiropractic purpose since it would cause legal problems.

I am not trying to be boastful you can contact Mike T this is what he test with.

I hope this helps in some way  I have also named all of the techniques up to  2nd Dan

Hal  whalen


----------



## kwanjang

Bruce:
In principle, I would love to see some sort of guideline of minimum standards; however, I still say that lots of people who ask me to certify them in Hap Ki Do know all of the kicks and strikes you mention.  Heck, they even know a fair number of techniques, but they do NOT move like Hap Ki Do people.  

Hap Ki Do, IMHO, has a certain fluid motion that is part and parcel of the art; and, no matter how many techniques, kicks, and strikes a person knows, you can tell if their upbringing was in another art.  If we accept people who just know the technique but NOT the motion, we will find ourselves accepting people who are like the intellectuals that can Ace every academic test placed in front of them.  I have seen that many of these folks could not "apply" anything they have ever learned, because they have no idea how to put their academic knowledge into something useful.

In closing.  I believe we already have an unspoken bond between the very people you think would be good to have involved.  JR would NEVER refer people to me like he does if he did not trust me as a Hap Ki do "player".  Same goes for Geoff Booth, Hal, and several other well known people we often speak fondly of.  Like I said earlier, if students of some of these fine folks were to come to me, the first thing I would do is accept their rank as it was earned from their Instructors, and the next thing I would ask them is WHY do you want to join if you already have a good man to teach you.  

I, for one, do NOT want folks who jump from org to org without the loyalty Hal speaks of.  On the other hand, I would be more than happy to take care of someone who moved into my area and has difficulties maintaining his original ties because of distance.  In fact, if one of my people were to move to an area better served by one of the other folks I mentioned, I call them up and ask them to take care of my "family".  I am sure they would, and all I could hope for is that my student would work his butt off to earn the respect I was given by his new teacher.

I have several people in NKMAA who live closer to JR than they do to me.  ALL of them are also affiliated with JR, and that is because I told them it was a good idea for them to train with JR since they can work with him more often than travel to see me or vice versa.  This is not good business as most see it, but it IS good martial arts they way I see it.  So far, I have had no one in (or move to) Hal's area.  If I did, I would be on the phone to Hal and politely ask him if he would take care of my student.  Oddly enough, all of the people I referred to JR are still with me.  Apparently there is no need to change loyalty just to train with one the folks whom I mentioned.  I would NEVER expect one of JRs people to change loyalty just to have him or her train with me... as far as I am concerned, we are family, and we take care of family where I come from.  

Unfortunately, none of this goodwill and trust has ever stopped the folks who we wish would call whatever they do something other than Hap Ki Do.


----------



## whalen

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Brian:
> 
> BTW:  I had been casting around for some type of "label" to give it and think the idea of using "Jackson" as a way of invoking a non-partisan, non-style sort of criteria would be excellent. I think before we would make a final decision it would be worthwhile to check with Master West so that we don't suggest that such a project automatically carries his support or participation.
> 
> I can see several problems so far, a central location should be selected so as to make it easy for all parties to attend . As a certain fact of life we all have certain expense's it should not cost to attend such an event nor should someone profit. it is not about supporting someones dojang or event but the survival of hapkido.
> 
> Seminars are a great way to meet and practice but the host of any event also has one eye on the money coming in ? it is a business other wise there would be no sale of tapes t-shirts etc at these events.
> 
> Now as doing this at a large scale national seminar would it be in the Best interest of Hapkido ? or to increase the profit margin of an event ?
> 
> That is why it should be held somewhere neutral where all parties have to travel and there is no hidden agenda.
> 
> Hal whalen


----------



## iron_ox

Hello all,

Perhaps a minimum standard should come not in the form of a standardized syllabus, but a more standardized view of how we will "see" and define hapkido so that "technical" definitions are less important.


----------



## whalen

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Perhaps a minimum standard should come not in the form of a standardized syllabus, but a more standardized view of how we will "see" and define hapkido so that "technical" definitions are less important.



It is agood way to start and I am sure everyone will agree on this.

Hal


----------



## Kumbajah

With all due respect Hal and Rudy I think that you are missing the point. It's not about jumping orgs or certification. Its about a common base. An analogy for Hal - Take the Electrical code and standards. It is a manual for best practices based on the laws of electricity and safety. You don't have to be part of the IBEW to utilize the code or be an electrician. [ you are better off in the IBEW apprenticeship program but that's a different discussion  ] Not everyone has to be checked off on Fire systems or data systems, but you at least have to know how to wire a single pole switch or calculate load. It is a common base that we all can refer to. It is not a curriculum that we have to prescribe to. But if you are going to do this work you should at least know this. Now with this being said you can deviate from the code if situations warrant themselves. Lazy neutrals for example. Are they legal - no. Do they work - Yes. Are the useful to know yes. The code is rewritten every couple of years to accommodate new technology and practices. Instead of stemming from one source we would all be the source. 

An other example would be language. Does anyone have to tell you its ok to speak english? No it is just a standard of words that we all agree to use. The lexicon changes through the years and many sources contribute to it but its still english. Some maybe more eloquent than others but we can at least understand each other. "these are wicked good tomatoes" and " these tomatoes are excellent  "  convey the same thought and we can recognize the thought they convey all though they take different approaches. It's still english.

Brian


----------



## iron_ox

Hello all,

Kumbajah, to create a minimum standard, one must first define what one is standardizing...


----------



## ajs1976

I think by working towards a minimum standard, the defination will start to present itself.  

Couple of people have brought up points about the movement of an hapkidoin vs the movement of someone who just learned the techiques.  Also the principles of Hapkido were mentioned.  Should these be included in the minimum list.  If so, how?


----------



## whalen

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> . An analogy for Hal - Take the Electrical code and standards. It is a manual for best practices based on the laws of electricity and safety. You don't have to be part of the IBEW to utilize the code or be an electrician. [ you are better off in the IBEW apprenticeship program but that's a different discussion  ] Not everyone has to be checked off on Fire systems or data systems, but you at least have to know how to wire a single pole switch or calculate load. It is a common base that we all can refer to. It is not a curriculum that we have to prescribe to. But if you are going to do this work you should at least know this. Now with this being said you can deviate from the code if situations warrant themselves. Lazy neutrals for example. Are they legal - no. Do they work - Yes. Are the useful to know yes. The code is rewritten every couple of years to accommodate new technology and practices. Instead of stemming from one source we would all be the source.
> eak engl
> 
> 
> I am impressed actually it is the NFPA that updates the code every three years. and it is Mandatory in the state of Ma. that we take the update course before we are allowed to renew our license no course no license it is usually 15 hours of code updates and significant changes etc.
> 
> But we do a mandatory 21 which will include the OSHA regulations ? Lock out tag out procedure and safety in or around medium voltage which is 480V- 13.8 kV,  Which we call the unforgiving of obvious reasons when it bites you DIE.
> 
> I am sorry For a second i though i was on the IBEW board.....Time for another cup of starbucks Before we work on solving all of the problems of the Hapkido world......
> 
> Hal
> ]


----------



## glad2bhere

"........These are the requirements i use 7th Gueb 
Demonstration 103 techniques 6-7 months 

22 hand strikes 
12 kicks 
8 basic blocks 
10 Defense against punches with counter strikes 
10 defense against punches with kicks 
10 same side break aways 
10 cross wrist break aways 
10 kicks against wrist grabs 

The requirement for 6th Gueb
Demonstration 53 techniques 3 months minimum from last test

9 additional kicks 
10 throws against wrist grab 
18 basic joint locks against wrist grab
14 basic cross wrist grabs with joint-locks

The requirements for 5th gueb 3 months minimum form 6th gueb
demonstration 60 techniques

20 more kicks 
35 defenses against clothing grabs multiple areas
5 defenses against hair grabs

The requirements for 4th Gueb 3 month s minimum from 5th gueb
Demonstration 70 techniques

20 double kicks 
20 defense against punches with throws and joint-locks
10 handshake defense
5 defense against rear wrist grabs
15 intermediate level defense against clothing grabs

The requirements for 3rd gueb 3 months minimum from 4th gueb
Demonstration of 72 techniques 

20 hopping or sliding kicks
17 Defense against clothing grabs from rear
15 intermediate wrist breaks
20 Defenses against body grabs from rear

The requirements for 2nd gueb 3 months minimum since 3 gueb
Demonstration of 75 techniques

20 jump double kicks 
20 Defense against front body grabs
25 Defenses against Kicks
10 defense against two hands grabbing two wrists

The requirements for 1st gueb 3 months minimum since 2nd gueb
Demonstration 59 Techniques

12 Flying kicks
10 two hands grabbing one wrist
12 advanced wrist breaks
10 from the side wrist grabs
3 defense from underside wrist grab to the chest

The requirements for 1st Dan minimum 6 months since 1st gueb test 
17 special kicks 
36 knife defense 
15 offensive techniques
10 choking techniques

For first dan test and every test you have to demonstrate all of the previous techniques as seemed necessary by the testing board Certain kicks are eliminated Do to age or physical limitations......" 

Good start!!  OK, so we have some work to do. Heres' some things I see. 

1.) Since right this moment we are only talking about minimums, I snipped-off everything after 1st Dan. If this ever expands past the basics then we need to start in with looking at the dan ranks for individual minimums, wouldn't you think? 

2.) Another thing to look at (and only you will be able to do this right now) are those techniques which repeat themselves even if they do so under varied situations, or in response to different techniques. 

3.) Then, of those remaining techniques, which are already represented among the kicking, striking, falling or grappling techniques already mentioned--- and drop those out. What this should leave are unique techniques which are candidate for discussion about including them because they encourage some aspexct of Hapkido that is being over looked, or address an aspect of Hapkido already identified, but does it in a very unique way of its own.  If you like we can use your list as a kind of "test case" to show other people how a selection process from a larger curriculum might be done. Thoughts? 

BTW: The idea of using "breakaways" was communicated to my by Dojunim Kim as being part of original Choi material. Apparently there are 10 (?) "breakaways" that are taught so as to identify the way the wrist can be manipulated in later techniques. I had not thought of this until I saw your heading "breakaways". 

BTW #2: I have not done anything with either breathing or blocking as I am waiting for more input from folks on these matters. When it comes to cross-referencing as I did on other things all of my resources are all over the board. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere

".......I can see several problems so far, a central location should be selected so as to make it easy for all parties to attend . As a certain fact of life we all have certain expense's it should not cost to attend such an event nor should someone profit. it is not about supporting someones dojang or event but the survival of hapkido. 

Seminars are a great way to meet and practice but the host of any event also has one eye on the money coming in ? it is a business other wise there would be no sale of tapes t-shirts etc at these events.

Now as doing this at a large scale national seminar would it be in the Best interest of Hapkido ? or to increase the profit margin of an event ?

That is why it should be held somewhere neutral where all parties have to travel and there is no hidden agenda......" 

I wanted to slow down a bit so that posts weren't passing each other too quickly. That said I wanted to remind folks of a couple of obvious things. 
a.) Maybe sometime down the road we might get together and talk face-to-face. Might even be a good idea. Right now, though, if you are kicking into the discussion, you are already "in attendence". If you want to send $$$ along well theres' a guy I know in Illinois who gratefully accepts... oh, never mind. 

One thing that has not been responded to is a central location where this minimum can be published. Need some help here. My only concern is that whoever does it be willing to take it on as a full-time thing, with postings, up-dates and publishings. Anyone? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

whalen said:
			
		

> Now this sounds great Now lets say we three decide there should be a time in-grade something all three of us believe in. Would you abide no questions asked ?
> 
> And we all set the rules You train with us and no-one else Would you agree?
> Or if we stated that since we make the judgment and not you , form NOW on we will test your Black Belt Students not you....
> 
> It would not work ...... In reality I HAVE NEVER promoted someone that was not a student of mine or my students , student We are not a Hapkido clearing house . somewhere along the way Everyone forgot to mention Loyalty To you instructor He taught you plain and simple.
> 
> Over and Over i have heard those money hungry koreans all they want is to be in control and take our money for testing and such.
> 
> Being an electrician has it ups and downs it is the nature of the Business or the lively hood i have chosen . I am presently unemployed since june this happens and this is how it goes.
> 
> My instructor found out about this and called me and offered to send me money to help me out since He considers me his son, I have not paid this man tuition since 1977 and i lived with him and his family on more than one occasion one time for four months when i went through the KHA instructors course in 1982.
> 
> Now should I abandon him because he did not train under choi ? Or he is not teaching what Choi originally taught ?
> 
> Master Won has a little saying : If your Father is Ugly do you trade him for better looking father ? Or is he your Father just the same Family is Family and I am considered his and I do nothing that will ruin the bond we have.
> 
> Hal Whalen


What you're suggestings is more of the same problems over again with different father figures.

My ideas are more individualistic with the support of the father not the control of the father. Understand?

You can't box anything in other than a bare minimum such as; the 3 Principle of Hapkido & a set of Minimum Core Techniques not Maximum.

If a student can demonstration a core minimum at a Bleck Belt level he's a Hapkido Black Belt accepted by all. 

The rest is up to the Instructors meaning time requirements, more techniques taught than the minimum techniques, specialty techniques, etc.

I will agree to a testing board of the Instuctor and two other Instructors for a any dan level to keeps things honest no other controls should be in place.

This is my concepts about how things should be done and I believe it will solve many problems and disagreements and be better for each person.

*LESS is MORE, no big government telling everybody what to do.*


----------



## glad2bhere

Right on the money, Stuart. As new as this project is, there is no faster way to kill it than to suddenly start talking about what people HAVE to do. This is an advisory effort with as many people providing advice as possible. We could not have done this without the Internet so lets take advantage of our good fortune while we have it, yes? 

I think if we start at the top of Hal's list and just work down we should probably be OK. 

Hal: 

Would you be willing to list your 11 kicks and 22 strikes for us? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## whalen

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> "..
> 
> Good start!!  OK, so we have some work to do. Heres' some things I see.
> 
> 1.) Since right this moment we are only talking about minimums, I snipped-off everything after 1st Dan. If this ever expands past the basics then we need to start in with looking at the dan ranks for individual minimums, wouldn't you think?
> 
> 2.) Another thing to look at (and only you will be able to do this right now) are those techniques which repeat themselves even if they do so under varied situations, or in response to different techniques.
> 
> 3.) Then, of those remaining techniques, which are already represented among the kicking, striking, falling or grappling techniques already mentioned--- and drop those out. What this should leave are unique techniques which are candidate for discussion about including them because they encourage some aspexct of Hapkido that is being over looked, or address an aspect of Hapkido already identified, but does it in a very unique way of its own.  If you like we can use your list as a kind of "test case" to show other people how a selection process from a larger curriculum might be done. Thoughts?
> 
> BTW: The idea of using "breakaways" was communicated to my by Dojunim Kim as being part of original Choi material. Apparently there are 10 (?) "breakaways" that are taught so as to identify the way the wrist can be manipulated in later techniques. I had not thought of this until I saw your heading "breakaways".
> 
> BTW #2: I have not done anything with either breathing or blocking as I am waiting for more input from folks on these matters. When it comes to cross-referencing as I did on other things all of my resources are all over the board. Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



This is going to take another cup of coffee ,I love this not working stuff now I know why it been kept a secret for so long hahaha....

What I did was take it off of my student manual, now what you have try and understand is that I have named every single technique we do, This way your no#1 is not his no#6 and so on all of my students kind of have an idea of how it works. Now this is not without some problems for instance when I test students I do not call out names of techniques unless I am referring to kicking.

What I will state is lower wrist show me what you know, I do not stop them when they have reached the allotted number I let them run with it, no one wants to be the first to stop it is human nature. Students then search through their hapkido Archives sometimes doing techniques you have not taught them in years' Then we move to the next catagory  and every test i do I use 5 of my Black Belt students as a board and I HAVE NEVER OVERRULED  Them.

After everyone is done I will then State you only needed ten and you did 26 for example. It shows the student that they do indeed know more than they ever gave themselves credit for. and proves to them and their peers and families they have indeed learned their Hapkido

There are techniques that are duplicated in different areas, but sometimes the approach and the manner in which the techniques are applied changes so I explain this as I teach  and i count this as a separate technique not to play the numbers game. But I take away any chance someone may freeze or draw a blank under pressure.

I also explain how the technique is applied to one attacker and I have to keep in mind that if there are several attackers the footwork will change so as not to give the second or third attacker room to attack. or if a weapon is now introduced that was not originally present.

Some of the double kicks are aimed at one person or at several ..

If this will help by all means use this. But lets say someone came to me and wanted to test fort he KHF i would then test by the KHF syllabus and if my students were part of that test i would pull them aside and explain and the entire test would be held so any non-member of my Dojang would not be at a disadvantage.

This is only fair and the right thing to do .It is not trying to make them look inferior or to show off your students.

Hal whalen


----------



## American HKD

whalen said:
			
		

> These are the requirements i use 7th Gueb
> Demonstration 103 techniques 6-7 months
> 
> 22 hand strikes
> 12 kicks
> 8 basic blocks
> 10 Defense against punches with counter strikes
> 10 defense against punches with kicks
> 10 same side break aways
> 10 cross wrist break aways
> 10 kicks against wrist grabs
> 
> The requirement for 6th Gueb
> Demonstration 53 techniques 3 months minimum from last test
> 
> 9 additional kicks
> 10 throws against wrist grab
> 18 basic joint locks against wrist grab
> 14 basic cross wrist grabs with joint-locks
> 
> The requirements for 5th gueb 3 months minimum form 6th gueb
> demonstration 60 techniques
> 
> 20 more kicks
> 35 defenses against clothing grabs multiple areas
> 5 defenses against hair grabs
> 
> The requirements for 4th Gueb 3 month s minimum from 5th gueb
> Demonstration 70 techniques
> 
> 20 double kicks
> 20 defense against punches with throws and joint-locks
> 10 handshake defense
> 5 defense against rear wrist grabs
> 15 intermediate level defense against clothing grabs
> 
> The requirements for 3rd gueb 3 months minimum from 4th gueb
> Demonstration of 72 techniques
> 
> 20 hopping or sliding kicks
> 17 Defense against clothing grabs from rear
> 15 intermediate wrist breaks
> 20 Defenses against body grabs from rear
> 
> The requirements for 2nd gueb 3 months minimum since 3 gueb
> Demonstration of 75 techniques
> 
> 20 jump double kicks
> 20 Defense against front body grabs
> 25 Defenses against Kicks
> 10 defense against two hands grabbing two wrists
> 
> The requirements for 1st gueb 3 months minimum since 2nd gueb
> Demonstration 59 Techniques
> 
> 12 Flying kicks
> 10 two hands grabbing one wrist
> 12 advanced wrist breaks
> 10 from the side wrist grabs
> 3 defense from underside wrist grab to the chest
> 
> The requirements for 1st Dan minimum 6 months since 1st gueb test
> 17 special kicks
> 36 knife defense
> 15 offensive techniques
> 10 choking techniques
> 
> For first dan test and every test you have to demonstrate all of the previous techniques as seemed necessary by the testing board Certain kicks are eliminated Do to age or physical limitations
> 
> The requirements for 2nd Dan minimum 1 since 1st dan
> Demonstration of 133 techniques
> 
> 20 Black Belt Level against clothing grabs
> 20 " " " against wrist grabs
> 15 " " " against punches
> 21 " " " against kicks
> 8 special kicks
> 11 seated defense
> 11 lying on back
> 20 combination joint locks
> 
> 
> The requirements for 3rd Dan 2 year since 2nd dan
> Demonstration of 150 techniques
> 
> 16 defense against pistol
> 30 defense against joint locks/ counter joint locks
> short stick technique
> 20 technique against punch
> 20 techniques against kick
> 20 against clothing/ body grabs
> 20 escorting/ arresting technique
> 20 long pole technique
> 
> The requirements for 4th Dan Master minimum 3 years since 3 Dan
> Demonstration of 125 techniques
> 
> 20 Cane technique against kick
> 20 Cane technique against punch
> 20 cane technique against grabs
> 15 sword offensive sword attack
> 15 defensive sword
> 15 defense two people grabbing wrist
> 15 defense two people grabbing multiple areas of body not just wrist.
> 
> these are the requirements of our Dojang all were taught by my masters in korea and many that i learned for Choi,Han Young whom i train with while stationed in texas . I also have not included Tan jon breathing , it is done every class Also falling techniques this is a given.
> 
> 
> I also did not mention pressure points for attack or healing and body alignment for chiropractic purpose since it would cause legal problems.
> 
> I am not trying to be boastful you can contact Mike T this is what he test with.
> 
> I hope this helps in some way I have also named all of the techniques up to 2nd Dan
> 
> Hal whalen


Hal

Way too much stuff in my opinion and how much is cross over material meaning the same armbar for wrist, lapel, hair, belt grab, punch ad nausea.

See to me that's one CORE tech. and various applications.

Same with kicks front kick, jump front, skipping front, all the same technique.

Once someone understand the core principle of any technique only application is left and there's very little wrong or right. Either it works or it doesn't.

Moreover defense from all postions are learned more intutuively rather than let me remember which techniques goes here.  That's a slow and outdated method of teaching but the many are set in thier ways because they were taught that way.

Be realistic and progressive that's my feelings.
Hapkido can be made easier to learn much less to remember if taught as principles and core techniques IMHO


----------



## whalen

glad2bhere
I think if we start at the top of Hal's list and just work down we should probably be OK. 

Hal: 

Would you be willing to list your 11 kicks and 22 strikes for us? 

Best Wishes said:
			
		

> Bruce your killing me Mo left a list for me to do i have to rake the leaves etc.... i figure  God  made them so he should rake them anything is possible, Look at the Red Sox
> 
> 
> 1. front kick from rear leg
> 2. Low scoop kick rear leg
> 3.outside slicing kick (using knife edge of foot)
> 4.twisting kick/inverted roundhouse
> 5.Inside heel kick
> 6.front rising heel kick
> 7.outside cresent kick
> 8.inside cresent kick
> 9.side thrust kick
> 10.Roundhouse kick
> 11.hook kick
> 12.Cover kick
> 13. ax kick
> 14.spin heel kick
> 15. spin side kick
> 
> Hand strikes
> 
> 1.back fist
> 2.chop
> 3.reverse chop
> 4.downward chop
> 5.ridge hand
> 6.reverse ridge hand
> 7.one knucle strike
> 8.tiger mouth
> 9.palm strike
> 10.forearm strike
> 11.eye slice
> 12.hammer fist
> 13.spearhand
> 14.thumb strike
> 15.four knucle strike
> 16.spin sudo
> 17.spin backfist
> 18.upward elbow
> 19.cross elbow
> 20.spining elbow
> 21.downward elbow
> 22.Back hand slap
> 
> falling technique
> 1.front fall kneeling
> 2.front fall standing
> 3.back fall crouching
> 4.back fall standing
> 5.side fall
> 6.forward roll
> 
> I hope this helps
> 
> Hal whalen


----------



## whalen

American HKD said:
			
		

> Hal
> 
> Way too much stuff in my opinion and how much is cross over material meaning the same armbar for wrist, lapel, hair, belt grab, punch ad nausea.
> 
> See to me that's one CORE tech. and various applications.
> 
> Same with kicks front kick, jump front, skipping front, all the same technique.
> 
> Once someone understand the core principle of any technique only application is left and there's very little wrong or right. Either it works or it doesn't.
> 
> Moreover defense from all positions are learned more intuitively rather than let me remember which techniques goes here.  That's a slow and outdated method of teaching but the many are set in their ways because they were taught that way.
> 
> Be realistic and progressive that's my feelings.
> Hapkido can be made easier to learn much less to remember if taught as principles and core techniques IMHO



Stu, 
I am taking the guess work out of it. they know why certain techniques work in certain areas and why they will not. some people will never be able to think in terms of principle, when you are attacked we do not want stop and think will this work from here or not ? you do not have time to do a mental scan it has to be second nature, not one that takes a lot of thought process.

I am not telling anyone they have to follow what i teach it is up to people to decide what works for them. I am eliminating the Guess work until they have a firm grasp of motion and resistance. and how to work against an opponent without running into a mental block.

  Also there are a lot of Dojangs that have a limited amount of actual Hapkido on the mat . Not just Hapkido seminars, a lot are know being taught by seminar standards. Where you have to emphasis theory over technique so as  to make sure they go home with something. It is  a lot simpler to say you did not understand the theory I taught you or explained, Than have them come back and state the technique did not work.

How many seminars have you been to where all of the participants taught Hapkido ? they may flaunt their rank or use the excuse they teach  something else like tae-Kwon-do it is easier than excepting the fact they care more about a certificate than teaching Hapkido . Or it is for their skills they pursue this.


Remember " He who hesitates meditates Horizontally"

Hal Whalen


----------



## Disco

Gentlemen, I hate to be a wet blanket here, but I guess someone has to do it.

It has already been stated that this undertaking is not suppose to have any bearing for issuing rank, no new governing organization. Then I ask you, why are we even entertaining such an endeavor. We have already been subject to a criteria/curriculum to be where we currently are. Perhaps I'm not seeing things clearly. To my way of thinking, establishing a base core minimum standards is designed to evaluate. Just who and why would someone subject themselves to be reviewed, unless it was to secure a standing (rank) in Hapkido. Since no rankings will be issued, it seems a moot point.


----------



## American HKD

whalen said:
			
		

> Stu,
> I am taking the guess work out of it. they know why certain techniques work in certain areas and why they will not. some people will never be able to think in terms of principle, when you are attacked we do not want stop and think will this work from here or not ? you do not have time to do a mental scan it has to be second nature, not one that takes a lot of thought process.
> 
> I am not telling anyone they have to follow what i teach it is up to people to decide what works for them. I am eliminating the Guess work until they have a firm grasp of motion and resistance. and how to work against an opponent without running into a mental block.
> 
> Also there are a lot of Dojangs that have a limited amount of actual Hapkido on the mat . Not just Hapkido seminars, a lot are know being taught by seminar standards. Where you have to emphasis theory over technique so as to make sure they go home with something. It is a lot simpler to say you did not understand the theory I taught you or explained, Than have them come back and state the technique did not work.
> 
> How many seminars have you been to where all of the participants taught Hapkido ? they may flaunt their rank or use the excuse they teach something else like tae-Kwon-do it is easier than excepting the fact they care more about a certificate than teaching Hapkido . Or it is for their skills they pursue this.
> 
> 
> Remember " He who hesitates meditates Horizontally"* Funny*
> 
> Hal Whalen


Hal

I see you point and there's two sides of each coin.

I think free expression and creativity on the part of the student is the best way but some people need to be told more and I agree with you 100% 

I followed like a robot until 2nd dan then I couldn't take it anymore. Master Son would never break from the traditional way of thinking. If I tried something new in class he alway stopped it.

On the other hand Master Ji appreciates when he sees you do something different and says to you "good idea" or something like that.

Open mindedness expands on ideas. It's hard sometimes and takes effort to re-think old ways but everyones different and not the same that's why there must be alot of freedom for Instructors to best serve the students.


----------



## whalen

American HKD said:
			
		

> Hal
> 
> I see you point and there's two sides of each coin.
> 
> I think free expression and creativity on the part of the student is the best way but some people need to be told more and I agree with you 100%
> 
> I followed like a robot until 2nd dan then I couldn't take it anymore. Master Son would never break from the traditional way of thinking. If I tried something new in class he alway stopped it.
> 
> On the other hand Master Ji appreciates when he sees you do something different and says to you "good idea" or something like that.
> 
> Open mindedness expands on ideas. It's hard sometimes and takes effort to re-think old ways but everyones different and not the same that's why there must be alot of freedom for Instructors to best serve the students.QUOTE]
> 
> Stu, Not that I do not allow for creativity. You have to reach a certain level of expertise before things really start to click,
> 
> What I am talking about is JR. Dan ranks 1,2 they have not reached that level yet where by the feel of grip know when they have to change into a different technique . Or by the way you are  attacked how much force will be necessary to subdue and survive.
> 
> But I believe you are starting to understand what i am trying to say.
> 
> Hal


----------



## whalen

Disco said:
			
		

> Gentlemen, I hate to be a wet blanket here, but I guess someone has to do it.
> 
> It has already been stated that this undertaking is not suppose to have any bearing for issuing rank, no new governing organization. Then I ask you, why are we even entertaining such an endeavor. We have already been subject to a criteria/curriculum to be where we currently are. Perhaps I'm not seeing things clearly. To my way of thinking, establishing a base core minimum standards is designed to evaluate. Just who and why would someone subject themselves to be reviewed, unless it was to secure a standing (rank) in Hapkido. Since no rankings will be issued, it seems a moot point.



Mike,

I hope this was not the intention, what I  believe they were trying to figure out is if someone says they are Hapkido or claiming to teach Hapkido this would  be some of what should or needs to be taught.

I have No INTEREST in becoming part of a board or some other  rank issuing organization. I am first and foremost a member of chundokwan and to keep things moving in the right Direction I do not issue out my own dan certification.

Nor would I ever except one from anyone but My Master,Trust me there have been offers....

My Master issues the certificate of KHF this is what my Black Belt students have

Hal Whalen


----------



## American HKD

whalen said:
			
		

> American HKD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hal
> 
> I see you point and there's two sides of each coin.
> 
> I think free expression and creativity on the part of the student is the best way but some people need to be told more and I agree with you 100%
> 
> I followed like a robot until 2nd dan then I couldn't take it anymore. Master Son would never break from the traditional way of thinking. If I tried something new in class he alway stopped it.
> 
> On the other hand Master Ji appreciates when he sees you do something different and says to you "good idea" or something like that.
> 
> Open mindedness expands on ideas. It's hard sometimes and takes effort to re-think old ways but everyones different and not the same that's why there must be alot of freedom for Instructors to best serve the students.QUOTE]
> 
> Stu, Not that I do not allow for creativity. You have to reach a certain level of expertise before things really start to click,
> 
> What I am talking about is JR. Dan ranks 1,2 they have not reached that level yet where by the feel of grip know when they have to change into a different technique . Or by the way you are attacked how much force will be necessary to subdue and survive.
> 
> But I believe you are starting to understand what i am trying to say.
> 
> Hal
> 
> 
> 
> Hal
> 
> I totally get it. In fact that's when I got it after 2nd Dan.
> 
> For sure the 1st few gups are all about basics.
> After that people can explore a little by 1st dan they should have a good idea dont you think.
> 
> But also I think we don't give enough leadway in the early stages and way too many repeat techniques that cross over.  So I teach the principles as soon as I can so the cross over stuff is cake later on.
> 
> It still takes time anyway you do it.
> 
> Have fun got to go.
Click to expand...


----------



## glad2bhere

Ok. So we get finished bumping Hal's list of techniques up against the standard ones' we have so far. In the kicking department we have the following matches. 

1.) Front Kick 
2.) Scoop Kick 
3.) Outside Slicing Kick 
4.) Twisting Kick 
5.) Inside Heel Kick 
6.) Front Rising Heel Kick 
9.) Side Thrust Kick 
11.) Hook Kick 
13.) Axe Kick 

Not turning up in the group of common basics are the "spin kicks", the cover kick, roundhouse kick, or the crescent Kicks. Now this raises an interesting issue. Just about everybody and their brother does a RH Kick and Cresent Kicks, at least they certainly show up in those traditions derived from both Kim and Ji. Do we survey for inclusion? Do we stick with just those techniques that are held in common?  Thoughts? Comments? 

(BTW: What happened to the Back kick?) 

For Handstrikes we have the following. 

1.) Backfist
2.) Chop
5.) Ridgehand
7.) One-knuckle Strike 
9.) Palm Strike 
12.) Hammerfist 
13.) Spearhand
15.) Four-knuckle Strike 
18.) Upward Elbow Strike 
19.) Cross Elbow Strike 
21.) Downward Elbow Strike
22.) Backhand Strike 

Once again there are a couple of techniques that are not part of the overall accepted position but are very popular among a select group of practitioners. Among those techniques are the Tiger Mouth Strike and spinning hand techniques. 

So what does this mean? Well, here is what I would do with information like this, but you have to be willing to do a fantasy with me. Lets suppose that I didn't know Hal Whalen whatsoever---- never heard of him. One day, however, a guy shows up in town and wants to join the class. Thing is that he insists that he is a 1st Black Belt and he got his chodan from Hal. Do I take him at his word or do I wonder if he has at least the basic skills a person who says he is a BB in Hapkido could be expected to have? Well, since Hals' curriculum has at least 9 kicking techniques of the standard 11 and at least 12 out of 22 strikes are in the standard techniques as well as all of the basic falling techniques, I can be reasonably certain that the person presenting to me could participate in a class and not put his partner or himself at risk. 

Of course, we haven't gotten to the blocking and grappling but I wonder if people can see how this tool could be used. Now, we still have not addressed how one can get certain technique common to some traditions and not to others added or dropped from the list but I have plenty of time to listen if somebody wants to throw out a suggestion. Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## whalen

Now as to not confuse the situation 

6th gueb kicking techniques 

1. inward kick to knee 
2. front thrust kick
3. inverted instep kick to face
4. forward knee strike
5. front pushing kick
6. front knife edge (risinig )
7. front angular kick
8. hatchet kick
9. low circular kick
10. back kick

5th geub kicking techniques

1. front leg side kick
2. crossing side kick
3. front leg hook kick
4.  front leg front kick
5. front leg roundhouse 
6. Frog side kick
7. spinning axe kick
8.spinning crescent kick
9.180 degree spin heel kick
10.360 degree spin heel kick
11. spinning roundhouse
12. drop spin heel kick
13. spinning slap kick
14. drop roundhouse
15. drop side kick

these cover most of the single kicks we use at the beginning level.

Hal whalen


----------



## greendragon

Wow, all this curriculum looks very familiar,, as I read the name of certain techniques Master Whalen listed I started having flashbacks and bruises magically appeared on my arms and legs..and feet.. ha... I like this conversation... it looks like a good idea and starting point...having a set core curriculum that was accepted and adapted across the board would be great and would help out a lot of those people I have met in the past who truly have a genuine love of Hapkido but can't find it in the "real" sense of the word and art for whatever reason.
                                                    Michael Tomlinson


----------



## whalen

Bring back memories Bro ?

I know that people think i am exaggerating or i compiled the numbers to make it appear like more.

You were part of this, you were there.....And every Black Belt we ever promoted did it the same way no cutting corners it also showed who you are and what you are made of,,,,,

Hal Whalen


----------



## Disco

[From Bruce] So what does this mean? Well, here is what I would do with information like this, but you have to be willing to do a fantasy with me. Lets suppose that I didn't know Hal Whalen whatsoever---- never heard of him. One day, however, a guy shows up in town and wants to join the class. Thing is that he insists that he is a 1st Black Belt and he got his chodan from Hal. Do I take him at his word or do I wonder if he has at least the basic skills a person who says he is a BB in Hapkido could be expected to have? Well, since Hals' curriculum has at least 9 kicking techniques of the standard 11 and at least 12 out of 22 strikes are in the standard techniques as well as all of the basic falling techniques, I can be reasonably certain that the person presenting to me could participate in a class and not put his partner or himself at risk.

Question, what will establishing a new across the board curriculum/criteria do that would be any different from what you would currently do if and when a "trained" person seeks to participate or join your school? Not trying to upset the apple cart here, cause it's good to see everybody wanting to participate. I'm just having a difficult time understanding the need for it, if it's not going to facilitate initial acceptance for entry to an organization.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Mike: 

Thats a hard question to answer as I am not able to get into everybodys' head and know to what use they would put this standard in there own life. 
Here are some of the things that I could imagine using a common minimal standard for. 

1.) You are presented with someone who reports that they have studied Hapkido of an obscure style and/or obscure teacher. Rather than automatically assess them according to your own kwans' standard, using a minimal basic skills standard provides an unprejudiced assessment of "survival skills" they could reasonably be expected to know. 

2.) As a teacher I am responsible for the safety of EVERYONE in my class. Using a minimal skills standard provides an un-prejudiced group of skills that tells me that a person can interact safely with minimal risk of hurting others or getting hurt. 

3.) As a Hapkido peer a minimal standard gives an agreed-upon group of techniques which individuals can use as reference points by which to have more technical discussions along with the more generic discussions about personalities and politics. 

4.) A minimum standard organized by practitioners across the spectrum of Hapkido arts may serve to reduce the sense that we are so very different by pointing up similarities among what we do. Perhaps this will reduce the amount of political distance among practitioners and allow them to interact more smoothly with each other.  Thoughts? 

What I do NOT see this being used for  are things like the following. 

1.) Assessment for membership in some new organization. 

2.) As a substitution for existing and proven curriculum. 

3.) As a shortcut for establishing Hapkido credentials. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Michael: 

Would you be willing to post your guep material (kicks, strikes, and breakfalls) so we can examine it for common techniques with this standard we are working on? Thoughts?  Comments? 

BTW: To folks in general: I am getting ready to put out a set of blocking techniques. Anyone have any thoughts in anticipation of that? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Disco

Bruce, Thanks for the reply. I'll just leave well enough alone. Folks are focused on a united position here and that's a really good thing. 

Mike


----------



## glad2bhere

I hope you won't back-off too far! Its been my experience that some of us get into situations where we can't see the forest cuz all the trees are in the way. When that happens it helps to have an independent viewpoint, if you know what I mean. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

Greetings,

I try to minimize but it's hard with out leaving important stuff. This is what I teach at 9th & 8th gup. 

*My Strikes*

*9th gup *
1. Center Knuckle 
2. Back Fist 
3. Inside Knife Hand 
4. Outside Knife Hand 
5. Ridge Hand 
6. Bottom Fist 

*8th Gup*

7. Palm Heel
8. Tiger Mouth
9. Spear Hand
10. Foward Elbow
11. Side Elbow
12. Doulble Elbow




*Kicks*

*9th gup*

1. Center Toe kick/front
2. Inside cresant
3. Outside cresant
5. Spear Kick
6. Low Shin Kick
7. Cutting or Curve Kick
8. Reverse Cutting
9. Knee Kick 

*8th gup*

1. Push Kick 
2. Hammer Kick 
3. Cover/Block Kick 
4. Upward heel strike 
5. Down 45d. Heel Kick
6. High Round Kick
7. High Hook Kick
8. Slap or twisting Kick
9. Back Kick ( heel ) 

Most of these can be done front leg, jumping, high, low, combos, etc. 

So I dont consider these seperate techniques adding to an infflated number of techniques our system really has.

Once the student can do the basic kick I introduce the all of the above methods of use. Speciality kicks are not part of this group.


----------



## American HKD

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> I try to minimize but it's hard with out leaving important stuff. This is what I teach at 9th & 8th gup.
> 
> *My Strikes*
> 
> *9th gup *
> 1. Center Knuckle
> 2. Back Fist
> 3. Inside Knife Hand
> 4. Outside Knife Hand
> 5. Ridge Hand
> 6. Bottom Fist
> 
> *8th Gup*
> 
> 7. Palm Heel
> 8. Tiger Mouth
> 9. Spear Hand
> 10. Foward Elbow
> 11. Side Elbow
> 12. Doulble Elbow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Kicks*
> 
> *9th gup*
> 
> 1. Center Toe kick/front
> 2. Inside cresant
> 3. Outside cresant
> 5. Spear Kick
> 6. Low Shin Kick
> 7. Cutting or Curve Kick
> 8. Reverse Cutting
> 9. Knee Kick
> 
> *8th gup*
> 
> 1. Push Kick
> 2. Hammer Kick
> 3. Cover/Block Kick
> 4. Upward heel strike
> 5. Down 45d. Heel Kick
> 6. High Round Kick
> 7. High Hook Kick
> 8. Slap or twisting Kick
> 9. Back Kick ( heel )
> 
> Most of these can be done front leg, jumping, high, low, combos, etc.
> 
> So I dont consider these seperate techniques adding to an infflated number of techniques our system really has.
> 
> Once the student can do the basic kick I introduce the all of the above methods of use. Speciality kicks are not part of this group.


 
*Sorry I left out side kick above.*

*Kicks

9th gup*

1. Center Toe kick/front
2. Inside cresant
3. Outside cresant
4. Side Kick
5. Spear Kick
6. Low Shin Kick
7. Cutting or Curve Kick
8. Reverse Cutting
9. Knee Kick 

*Blocks*

*9th gup*

1. High forearm 2. Inside forearm 3. Outside forearm 4. Low forearm 5. Doulble X Block low/high

*8th gup*

1. Double Knife hand 2. inside circle 3. outside circle, 4. straight arm block
5. back hand parry

*Basic Throws*

*9th & 8th Gup*

1.Shoulder  2.Hip  3. Back Reap  4. Front Leg Sweep   5. Wheel Throw (lay backward & throw)

*Joint Locks*

*9th & 8th Gup*

1. Standard Hapkido Arm Bar 2. Outer turning wrist break 3.  Outside Downward wrist lock 4. Straight Down wrist lock 5. Elbow over Elbow Bar. 6. 180d turning wrist/shoulder lock 7. hammer lock 8. goose neck 9. Spinning wrist twist  10. Shoulder Lock 

These throws and Locks create a core that has hundreds of applications to work from.


----------



## Paul B

Hi Stuart,the techniques in themselves sound great so far! (That goes for everyone)

My question is....what attacks do you use to learn the techniques from at first? The standard grabs? Do you teach the techniques out of strikes more for the "intermediate" gups? 

I guess what I'm getting at is application,I think everyone would agree that the approach changes between static and dynamic applications. So maybe we could "alter" the list a bit to include applications,no? Bad idea? Just a thought.


----------



## American HKD

Paul B said:
			
		

> Hi Stuart,the techniques in themselves sound great so far! (That goes for everyone)
> 
> My question is....what attacks do you use to learn the techniques from at first? The standard grabs? Do you teach the techniques out of strikes more for the "intermediate" gups?
> 
> I guess what I'm getting at is application,I think everyone would agree that the approach changes between static and dynamic applications. So maybe we could "alter" the list a bit to include applications,no? Bad idea? Just a thought.


I thinks most of hapkido teaches the basics from wrist grabs then clothes, punches, kicks, weapons, than more of the same at advanced level techniques.


----------



## Paul B

Sure thing.But since it's a "standard",for use across the board,where would you guys draw the line between individual gup attacks and techniques?

And I guess I also take issue with teaching shoulder throws to beginners. How can you expect someone to take nauk bup from that when they are just learning how to fall? I find that throw hard enough to fall from.It's a very high very hard throw,if we're talking about the same thing. IMO they are not familiar enough with themselves at that point to take it. Feel free to shoot me.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Paul: 

Good questions and this is THE single place where I think we will generate the greatest amount of discussion. I see it coming from two areas. 

The first area is whether to include techniques that a majority of folks (but not all) use. 

The second area is where to draw a line to keep permutations ("applications") from being accepted as "unique techniques".  This BTW is one of the reasons I have been delinquent getting the blocking material put out for folks to see as some people teach very different approaches to the roll of blocks, parries and redirects at different levels and for different reasons. 
I'd love to hear more feedback in this area myself.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Paul B

Hi Bruce,

I think it would also be a tremendous help to have the standard "names",as discussed earlier. Some of the techniques mentioned,I could only try to pick the name apart to try and figure it out. I find this frustrating at times. I could say "Yokomen Uchi Ikkyo" to almost any Aikidoka on the planet and they would know exactly what technique I was refering to. I think the Hapkido world would benefit unbelievably from having a common reference point like this!

That's why I haven't even really commented on any material at all,besides being the usual PITA...


----------



## American HKD

Greeting,



.............Good questions and this is THE single place where I think we will generate the greatest amount of discussion. I see it coming from two areas. 

The first area is whether to include techniques that a majority of folks (but not all) use. 

*Keep it to a bare minimum IMHO or the list will keep growing larger and larger.*

The second area is where to draw a line to keep permutations ("applications") from being accepted as "unique techniques". This BTW is one of the reasons I have been delinquent getting the blocking material put out for folks to see as some people teach very different approaches to the roll of blocks, parries and redirects at different levels and for different reasons. 
I'd love to hear more feedback in this area myself. FWIW.........

*You can't break out every nuance and make it a tech by itself. Think Core technique and the many nuances must be covered in context as students progress.*

*Example front kick, with toe, ball, instep, or heel. 1 kick tech (4 foot positions). **Front kick with, skip, jump, front or rear leg. still 1 tech. (4 ways to do it.) *
*Multipling 1 kick x 4 ways to execute x 4 foot postions = 16 front kick techniques. OVER KILL!*

*This is what many seem to do then claiming 1000s of techniques from only a couple dozen real core techniques.*


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart and Paul: 

I'll bet that this will become a tedious process for some people who would like a quick fix but both of the points you have raised really deserve to get much attention in my book. 

I strongly back the idea of "more is less" in this case. As we have seen in all of the lists so far whether Hal's or anyone elses, the teacher or the KJ always has the option of what goes into their particular take on things. If, however, what Hal teaches is "genuine hapkido"  even if he himself teaches 50 or 60 techniques, one could reasonably expect to find most (all?) of the core techniques. Now, lets flip it the other way. Lets suppose that Hal teaches a system that is a combination of TKD and BJJ (its not but work with me for a second...). Such a system would probaby have most of the Kicking and most of the striking, but may not have the breakfalls, blocking, and grappling techniques common to other Hapkido arts. He could call it "hapkido" but it wouldn't meet the minimum requirements. 

In hand with this, I would absolutely LOVE to have a common set of terms for the Hapkido arts to identify both techniques and concepts---- in English as well as Korean. This will take a bit more as will the standardizing of the spelling (English AND Korean).  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

Dear Stuart and Paul: 

I'll bet that this will become a tedious process for some people who would like a quick fix but both of the points you have raised really deserve to get much attention in my book. 

I strongly back the idea of "more is less" in this case. As we have seen in all of the lists so far whether Hal's or anyone elses, the teacher or the KJ always has the option of what goes into their particular take on things. If, however, what Hal teaches is "genuine hapkido" even if he himself teaches 50 or 60 techniques, one could reasonably expect to find most (all?) of the core techniques. Now, lets flip it the other way. Lets suppose that Hal teaches a system that is a combination of TKD and BJJ (its not but work with me for a second...). Such a system would probaby have most of the Kicking and most of the striking, but may not have the breakfalls, blocking, and grappling techniques common to other Hapkido arts. He could call it "hapkido" but it wouldn't meet the minimum requirements. 

*I disagree to be a Hapkido practicioner you must move like one and learn from a good HKD Instructor for some period of time to learn how to move. Just copying a standard won't cut it.*

*Moreover what you just brought up is a major problem with HKD today. I met many guys over the last several years who claim to be HKD stylists they call what they do HKD but don't move like one.*

In hand with this, I would absolutely LOVE to have a common set of terms for the Hapkido arts to identify both techniques and concepts---- in English as well as Korean. This will take a bit more as will the standardizing of the spelling (English AND Korean). Thoughts? 

*English only we speak english!*

*Why should we standardize Korean names that aren't original names anyway they didn't use the Japanese terms already in place for who knows how long. I maybe wrong but I'm not aware of Korean standard names of HKD techniques. *


BTW my curriculum out line is on my website!


Best Wishes, 

Bruce
__________________
Bruce W Sims 
Midwest Hapkido, Inc.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

Do you think it is worthwhile to have a common Korean language version of a standard so that we might more easily discuss matters regarding Hapkido with them? At the superficial level I am thinking about technical matters such as an individual kick or strike. However I am also looking down the road regarding more conceptual matters such a "timing", "off-balancing" and "focus" etc etc which never quite get talked about as much as political matters. 

As far as "moving" like a person who trains in Hapkido I can only say that I know what it looks like when I see it, but would be hard pressed to incoporate that into a standard. I have seen people who swing a sword around, for instance, and people who obviously know swordsmanship, but I would be hard-pressed to actually define the better transition of balance, or fluidity of motion as a standard.  Any thoughts? 

Regarding training under an identified master, for a specified period of time, I can only say that I have held this criteria for myself. I find it very important to me, just as upholding the integrity of the Kwan, while others may just use the word. Nobody seems willing to discuss the role of this tradition as part and parcel of a minimum standard. I really wish they would, I suspect it is as important as any other part of these things we are talking about, yes? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> Do you think it is worthwhile to have a common Korean language version of a standard so that we might more easily discuss matters regarding Hapkido with them? At the superficial level I am thinking about technical matters such as an individual kick or strike. However I am also looking down the road regarding more conceptual matters such a "timing", "off-balancing" and "focus" etc etc which never quite get talked about as much as political matters.
> 
> As far as "moving" like a person who trains in Hapkido I can only say that I know what it looks like when I see it, but would be hard pressed to incoporate that into a standard. I have seen people who swing a sword around, for instance, and people who obviously know swordsmanship, but I would be hard-pressed to actually define the better transition of balance, or fluidity of motion as a standard. Any thoughts?
> 
> Regarding training under an identified master, for a specified period of time, I can only say that I have held this criteria for myself. I find it very important to me, just as upholding the integrity of the Kwan, while others may just use the word. Nobody seems willing to discuss the role of this tradition as part and parcel of a minimum standard. I really wish they would, I suspect it is as important as any other part of these things we are talking about, yes?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

As you already know Hapkido isn't just a compilation of any techniques.

You also noticed I advocate no time requirement for rank advancement or an untold number of techniques to be considered for rank in HKD.

However there must be a tradition behind it, be it Choi, Ji, or some other afirmed lineage one can trace themself back to.

Also "way one moves" can only be taught by personal instruction from one who knows himself, this part of training you can't get by looking at a book or tape and say you know HKD requirements so give me a black belt. 

As one who speaks english I don't recognize a real use for Korean terms other than to attach an orientalness to it if you will. But since I'm not an expert in the Korean languge I cant say if will provide a more meaningfull description of a technique to out weight the use of english alone.

Can you?


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

I think you already know that you are "preaching to the choir". Since we both agree on this point, and we both acknowledge that this is important, the question remains. 

1.) How do we quantify or characterize such a minimum? 

2.) Is it fit into the larger and more behaviorally define minimum that we have so far? 

Some time back I was toasted on another Net for advocating a code, or "ethos" by which one conducts their growth. Have we come full circle back to that spot? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

..........I think you already know that you are "preaching to the choir". Since we both agree on this point, and we both acknowledge that this is important, the question remains. 

1.) How do we quantify or characterize such a minimum? 

2.) Is it fit into the larger and more behaviorally define minimum that we have so far? 

Some time back I was toasted on another Net for advocating a code, or "ethos" by which one conducts their growth. Have we come full circle back to that spot? Thoughts? ...........

*This might be the end of this thread from what I see now, so I** guess the only logical conclusion would be e**verything should be up to the teacher not any prescribed methods on paper or a single standard that works for all.*

*That leaves us with the problem of people getting along and accepting all legitimate schools of Hapkido no matter what thier curiculum looks like.*


----------



## glad2bhere

".....That leaves us with the problem of people getting along and accepting all legitimate schools of Hapkido no matter what thier curiculum looks like......" 

uh..... call me dumb, but isn't that a non sequitor. 

Seems sorta conflicted to say "all legitimate schools of Hapkido" and "no matter what their curriculum looks like" in the same sentence. As I see it the point of having a minimal standard is to give recognition to those points upon which we all agree. Perhaps its a small start but I think a telling one. If on one hand we rebell at having a single standard unilatterally shoved down our throats in the name of a single identified authority, why would we want to go over to the other extreme and simply accept any criteria, bound by any limits and associated with any individuals for indeterminant amounts of time or unspecified values. 

For my part I hold a pretty conservative positon in such things, but I can at least understand the existence of a very liberal take on things. I wonder if I am not now looking at the sort of inflexibility or intolerance that keeps the Hapkido community from pulling together. Have I misunderstood your position? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Paul B

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> . However I am also looking down the road regarding more conceptual matters such a "timing", "off-balancing" and "focus" etc etc which never quite get talked about as much as political matters.
> 
> As far as "moving" like a person who trains in Hapkido I can only say that I know what it looks like when I see it, but would be hard pressed to incoporate that into a standard.


OK..this is gold,Bruce!

I would dearly love to see a work JUST on this aspect of Hapkido!

Stuart..I think this has everything to do with claims of "legitimacy". I can't count the number of times I have seen(as I am sure you guys have) someone who claims they train in Hapkido/Aikido/Judo or another one of the "internal" throwing arts who move like a rusty robot. There is definitely a fluidity that is inherent in any of these arts I mentioned. Without it..the "art" isn't there. Like you said....it "can only be learned from personal instruction" That is really a standard in itself,no?

Bruce,

As Stuart has pointed out repeatedly,there are only so many core techniques,and then the gajillion variations. How about just "standard" names for the core techniques? I mean seriously...what is the "core" of Hapkido?

Armbar,S-lock/Z-lock(Nikyo to me),elevated wrist twist(Sankyo to me),side wrist lock(Yonkyo to me),Four corner throw/Inside Outside twist(Shiho Nage to me),Turning Leaf/Two Finger Throw(Kote Gaeshi to me),Rising elbow throw(Sayu Nage to me).....you see what I am getting at? Now how many of you guys know or have heard those techniques by a hundred different names? I bet maybe some of you didn't know what I was talking about until maybe I gave the Aikido/Daito name. Think of how much better communication could become with just ONE name for a technique,with the variations contained,rather than trying to claim a different "animal"..no? If there are Korean terms for these techs. already,please enlighten me.


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## glad2bhere

Paul, you are right on the money!! 

Just as we all have been saying --- each in our own way---- it really has nothing to do with organizations, politics or personalities. And as you and Stuart have pointed out there are actually only a "few" core techniques of which the rest of the curriculum are variations. For myself I wish the "historians" among us had not gotten hung-up on numbers upwards of 3000 techniques. Has anyone ever met anyone who could actually document all 3,650 techniques?  Has anyone ever gotten two leading personalities to agree how many actual techniques there are? However, that does not keep people from finding reasons to remain separate from others despite all Hapkido traditions sharing a number of the basic techniques themselves. What is worse, is that while it is relatively simple to compare physical techniques, it gets much harder to identify commonalities among Hapkido concepts. We all agree that there are such concepts but how many people actually talk about them or can agree what the core concepts are (apart from the Three Principles, I mean). If I had to put money of things like this I would say that the real fear behind doing something like what we have been working on is that there are some people in positions of leadership who are more than a little scared that when folks start pinning them down to chapter and verse practitioners are going to find that the Hapkido arts are a lot more smoke and mirrors than anyone ever gave them credit for. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Paul, you are right on the money!!
> 
> Just as we all have been saying --- each in our own way---- it really has nothing to do with organizations, politics or personalities. And as you and Stuart have pointed out there are actually only a "few" core techniques of which the rest of the curriculum are variations. For myself I wish the "historians" among us had not gotten hung-up on numbers upwards of 3000 techniques. Has anyone ever met anyone who could actually document all 3,650 techniques? Has anyone ever gotten two leading personalities to agree how many actual techniques there are? However, that does not keep people from finding reasons to remain separate from others despite all Hapkido traditions sharing a number of the basic techniques themselves. What is worse, is that while it is relatively simple to compare physical techniques, it gets much harder to identify commonalities among Hapkido concepts. We all agree that there are such concepts but how many people actually talk about them or can agree what the core concepts are (apart from the Three Principles, I mean). If I had to put money of things like this I would say that the real fear behind doing something like what we have been working on is that there are some people in positions of leadership who are more than a little scared that when folks start pinning them down to chapter and verse practitioners are going to find that the Hapkido arts are a lot more smoke and mirrors than anyone ever gave them credit for. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


You can't pin them down they wont like thier secrets uncovered.

Smoke & mirrors, good one Bruce.

Legitimate HKD is hard to pigeon hole but a start is someone trained by a succesive lineage to the recognized sources Choi or Ji. This does mean they'll be a good teacher or anything but at least they have a claim to learning the style. 
For example most of my teachers students even black belts aren't teacher material but they were at least in the right place.


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## greendragon

You know there are a lot of techniques that look close to each other but if done correctly actually break or manipulate different parts of the anatomy... example: this is our terminology... 
1. reverse circular wrist throw
2. elbow breaking wrist throw
3. overhead twist...

These 3 techniques look a lot alike but the angled steps are a little different, the grip is a little different, and you actually feel the pain in 3 totally seperate areas of your arm and body... Master Whalen can expound on this....

  when I first started Hapkido I couldn't see the difference...now it is clear as day... I think a lot of the "variations" are really not variations but seperate techniques... I have some Aikido friends that have shown me the 10 basic joint locks and throws and tell me that everything else is a "variation" of these 10.. then I show them the difference in pain between the 3 I mentioned earlier and I see the light going off in their head... IMHO if the pain and breaks effect different areas of the anatomy then it is a different technique and not a subset or variation....
                                                            Michael Tomlinson


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## glad2bhere

Dear Michael: 

I agree in both principle and practice with what you said. I think the matter would eventually come down to where one draws a cut-off if we are dealing with minimal standards. For instance, I am sure that any accomplished Hapkido practitioners would know a variety of wrist throws using either adduction or abduction of the wrist. It would seem that, though what you say is very right, were a person to be able to perform a technique or two  using the two biomechanics I have mentioned that would be sufficient as a minimum skill level. I would then feel comfortable working such techniques with that person. Another example are shoulder throws of which there are many. I should think that if a person could perform a simple Forward Shoulder Throw (J. "Ippon Seionage") that a teacher would feel comfortable doing shoulder throws with that person even if his background was uncertain. Now, certainly if it was a matter of someone applying for membership to the WHF I would certainly test them over that criteria but I see that as a different sort of issue.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## greendragon

I see your point... standard wise... I would put all three throws in there.. but shoulder throw.. I see what you mean.. if the person can execute the basic hip throw motion then shoulder throw, hooking shoulder throw, one arm shoulder throw, two arm shoulder throw, neck throw, etc... all hinge off the same motion...you would look for things like.. proper stepping, lowering center of gravity, bumping and drawing, and looking away... 
                         Michael Tomlinson


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## whalen

greendragon said:
			
		

> I see your point... standard wise... I would put all three throws in there.. but shoulder throw.. I see what you mean.. if the person can execute the basic hip throw motion then shoulder throw, hooking shoulder throw, one arm shoulder throw, two arm shoulder throw, neck throw, etc... all hinge off the same motion...you would look for things like.. proper stepping, lowering center of gravity, bumping and drawing, and looking away...
> Michael Tomlinson



The best way to test the throw is get on the mat with some judoka plain and simple.

When bruce and mike mentioned something like Ippon seonage (one Armed Shoulder Throw). They usually set you up first before attempting the technique.  O soto Geri is mostly used to set up your opponent or to  break his balance.

I know i tried and got hit with Tani otohshi  it will humble you real quick after you regain your breath ha-ha..

That is when i tell them " Go ahead and Grab my wrist" make my day.

The  one thing that has given me a  slight advantage is that when they grab my sleeve i know how to conceal and maintain their grip and use A joint-lock in with the Judo throw It works for me until they catch on ...

Hal


----------



## Kumbajah

Heading to Judo Class tonight - explain this more if you please.


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## Paul B

Hi Mst. Whalen,

I have been told it is "legal" in Judo to use kansetsu waza on the grip into the throw,but have never even came close to pulling it off! 

It's nice to hear that someone actually did it,every time I even think about it I wind up in yoko wakare or sode makikomi...ouch!


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## glad2bhere

".......if the person can execute the basic hip throw motion then shoulder throw, hooking shoulder throw, one arm shoulder throw, two arm shoulder throw, neck throw, etc... all hinge off the same motion...you would look for things like.. proper stepping, lowering center of gravity, bumping and drawing, and looking away... "

Exactly right. Now, not to put too fine a point on this but lets take a look at the example that you mentioned Re: Shoulder Throw vs Hip Throw. To my way of thinking and as reflected in the YMK curriculum the Shoulder Throw is a member of the Thoracic Family of Techniques while the Hip Throw is a member of the Pelvic Family of techniques. I could see including BOTH kinds of techniques in a Minimal Standard. Maybe others could see this and maybe they couldn't, I don't know. However the nice thing about a minimal standard is that whether both techniques are included or not I think you expressed a great example of exactly how one might use such a standard. I point this out ONLY because I have a passing familiarity with what you do at your school through your contributions and have been chewing over some "heretical" thoughts. Perhaps you or someone might want to give me your comments on this. 

Suppose (using your schools practice) there were moves that might reveal a persons' abilities to benefit from Hapkido practice that are non-standard across the board in typical Hapkido arts. For instance, a person might have sucky kicks, but excellent wrestling moves. Might we want to consider such skills in much the way that a Roundhouse kick is non-standard (across the board)? At 3rd BB we train in ground-fighting (Positions of Disadvantage), but would we want to consider such techniques as part of the "basic" standard? 
Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ".......if the person can execute the basic hip throw motion then shoulder throw, hooking shoulder throw, one arm shoulder throw, two arm shoulder throw, neck throw, etc... all hinge off the same motion...you would look for things like.. proper stepping, lowering center of gravity, bumping and drawing, and looking away... "
> 
> Exactly right. Now, not to put too fine a point on this but lets take a look at the example that you mentioned Re: Shoulder Throw vs Hip Throw. To my way of thinking and as reflected in the YMK curriculum the Shoulder Throw is a member of the Thoracic Family of Techniques while the Hip Throw is a member of the Pelvic Family of techniques. I could see including BOTH kinds of techniques in a Minimal Standard. Maybe others could see this and maybe they couldn't, I don't know. However the nice thing about a minimal standard is that whether both techniques are included or not I think you expressed a great example of exactly how one might use such a standard. I point this out ONLY because I have a passing familiarity with what you do at your school through your contributions and have been chewing over some "heretical" thoughts. Perhaps you or someone might want to give me your comments on this.
> 
> Suppose (using your schools practice) there were moves that might reveal a persons' abilities to benefit from Hapkido practice that are non-standard across the board in typical Hapkido arts. For instance, a person might have sucky kicks, but excellent wrestling moves. Might we want to consider such skills in much the way that a Roundhouse kick is non-standard (across the board)? At 3rd BB we train in ground-fighting (Positions of Disadvantage), but would we want to consider such techniques as part of the "basic" standard?
> Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Each part of the curriculum must be included in the minimum requirements.
Trying to use the same core techniques cross applied will be easier to remember for most people.

Example an Arm Bar can work for single wrist, double, two on one, many clothes grabs front & rear, hair, and so on the only thing that will vary is entries & foot work maybe. 

Core elements should be used for all defenses as much as possible any of the varations are extra to be shown as extra knowledge.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

I think you lost me. I am hearing two very different messages in your post. 

I am not even sure how to ask for clarification. Can you reword your statement differently? Maybe its just a typo (or maybe I need another cuppa)

BTW: TO ANYONE WHOSE INTERESTED: Over on Warrior-Scholar Net there is some posting being done regarding Preasure Points and equating Han-ja with those points, possibly with an eye towards uniformly referencing and identifying points. I have posted the 38 PP we have in YMK Hapkido along with what Han-gul I have from GM Myung (See: "Gold Book"). It would be nice if anyone has any other PP they use, especially if they have the Hangul/Hanja to go with it.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B

Good call,Stuart. I agree that the core should be used as much as possible. Every "extra" technique comes from a good working knowledge of the core,no? Is that what you were saying?

As Mr. Tomlinson replied,there are definitely different areas of "focus" in similar techniques,but to actually qualify "focus" as seperate entities alltogether,I don't see how that would be helpful to a minimum standard,as one would have to be familiar with the basic application before moving on. If I am way off base on that one,feel free to correct me,Mr. Tomlinson.


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## glad2bhere

Hmmmm...........

I think I agree in principle, but I'm not sure that I think of a concept quite in those terms. For me it is enough to say that a technique requires a sensitivity for the need for a concept rather than execution requiring a specific kind of concept. I have found that execution of Hapkido techniques requires many different concepts, usually employed in different proportions, depending on the technique. However, I think I am right to say that if a person represents themselves as being a 1st BB in Hapkido one could reasonably expect that person to be familiar with a number of those qualities and be facile in using them in executing a technique. For example, I have been on the mat with folks whose execution was effective, but often only because they are young and strong and can make up for modest performance with force or speed. I have also been on the mat with folks whose technique was not blindingly fast, but whose effectiveness was unquestionable having smoothly taken my balance by misaligning me, redirecting me, untiming me and so forth. Let me put this another way. 

In my classes I always run into one or two people who make a big thing about "resistance". The idea seems to be that they want a technique that will work against someone who grabs with a vice-like grip and locks in his entire body behind the grab. Put aside the fact that nobody grabs like this, nor is it feasible that the person grabbing will know whats coming in advance and be able to anticipate the movement selectively, or that dealing with grabs is only one part of the overall curriculum for just a moment. What does such an exercise tell us about practice? That the final deciding point for practice is the end and not the means? In such a case need we abandon the concepts I have mentioned and put our goal as simply defeating our partner. And if defeating our partner is all that there is to Hapkido how is what we do any different from any of the martial sports where competition is the name of the game? I think, in theory, most practitioners will agree that we need these concepts and that their incorporation and use separate our art from many others. I will also say that it has been my experience that people are reluctant to actually examine such concepts or their application in technique. Why, I'm not sure.  FWIW. 

Note to Paul: You asked earlier about core techniques in grappling. Having you seen the list on page 1, post #8 of this string?  I will be publishing this list along with the other techniques and their descriptions by the end of the week on my website. Thoughts and comments, as always, are invited.

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

Paul B said:
			
		

> Good call,Stuart. I agree that the core should be used as much as possible. Every "extra" technique comes from a good working knowledge of the core,no? Is that what you were saying?
> 
> As Mr. Tomlinson replied,there are definitely different areas of "focus" in similar techniques,but to actually qualify "focus" as seperate entities alltogether,I don't see how that would be helpful to a minimum standard,as one would have to be familiar with the basic application before moving on. If I am way off base on that one,feel free to correct me,Mr. Tomlinson.


Paul

You understand what I'm saying. Good job!


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Hmmmm...........
> 
> I think I agree in principle, but I'm not sure that I think of a concept quite in those terms. For me it is enough to say that a technique requires a sensitivity for the need for a concept rather than execution requiring a specific kind of concept. I have found that execution of Hapkido techniques requires many different concepts, usually employed in different proportions, depending on the technique. However, I think I am right to say that if a person represents themselves as being a 1st BB in Hapkido one could reasonably expect that person to be familiar with a number of those qualities and be facile in using them in executing a technique. For example, I have been on the mat with folks whose execution was effective, but often only because they are young and strong and can make up for modest performance with force or speed. I have also been on the mat with folks whose technique was not blindingly fast, but whose effectiveness was unquestionable having smoothly taken my balance by misaligning me, redirecting me, untiming me and so forth. Let me put this another way.
> 
> In my classes I always run into one or two people who make a big thing about "resistance". The idea seems to be that they want a technique that will work against someone who grabs with a vice-like grip and locks in his entire body behind the grab. Put aside the fact that nobody grabs like this, nor is it feasible that the person grabbing will know whats coming in advance and be able to anticipate the movement selectively, or that dealing with grabs is only one part of the overall curriculum for just a moment. What does such an exercise tell us about practice? That the final deciding point for practice is the end and not the means? In such a case need we abandon the concepts I have mentioned and put our goal as simply defeating our partner. And if defeating our partner is all that there is to Hapkido how is what we do any different from any of the martial sports where competition is the name of the game? I think, in theory, most practitioners will agree that we need these concepts and that their incorporation and use separate our art from many others. I will also say that it has been my experience that people are reluctant to actually examine such concepts or their application in technique. Why, I'm not sure. FWIW.
> 
> Note to Paul: You asked earlier about core techniques in grappling. Having you seen the list on page 1, post #8 of this string? I will be publishing this list along with the other techniques and their descriptions by the end of the week on my website. Thoughts and comments, as always, are invited.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce 

Good point quality techniques doesn't require unbelievable speed or strenght. In fact speed has many factors to such as timing, smoothness, off balancing, with all these factors in play a technique will work.

A far as vise like grips I think most techniques should be executed before one grabs that tight or you'll have to create an off balance or a strike set-up.


----------



## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> In my classes I always run into one or two people who make a big thing about "resistance". The idea seems to be that they want a technique that will work against someone who grabs with a vice-like grip and locks in his entire body behind the grab. Put aside the fact that nobody grabs like this, nor is it feasible that the person grabbing will know whats coming in advance and be able to anticipate the movement selectively, or that dealing with grabs is only one part of the overall curriculum for just a moment. What does such an exercise tell us about practice? That the final deciding point for practice is the end and not the means? In such a case need we abandon the concepts I have mentioned and put our goal as simply defeating our partner. And if defeating our partner is all that there is to Hapkido how is what we do any different from any of the martial sports where competition is the name of the game? I think, in theory, most practitioners will agree that we need these concepts and that their incorporation and use separate our art from many others. I will also say that it has been my experience that people are reluctant to actually examine such concepts or their application in technique. Why, I'm not sure.  FWIW.



Hello all,

Sorry, tried to stay out of this thread to observe, but the assertion that fights do not start with hard, fast grabs with lots of body english thrown in is wrong.  This may be the result of an unfortunate streak of luck to work at some really bad bars, but in countless examples from myself and the other doormen I have trained, grabs ARE very hard, and the body of the aggressor is often solid if not simply following the grab.

Not sure about the meaning of the rest of this paragraph, but Hapkido, among other things is about defense of self and defeat of an opponent.  We are not Aikido with some quasi-religious "world peace" agenda...

I believe that reaction to grabs is essential but to say that "no one grabs like that" simply indicates you have been lucky enough to have never been grabbed in a fight.


----------



## American HKD

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Sorry, tried to stay out of this thread to observe, but the assertion that fights do not start with hard, fast grabs with lots of body english thrown in is wrong. This may be the result of an unfortunate streak of luck to work at some really bad bars, but in countless examples from myself and the other doormen I have trained, grabs ARE very hard, and the body of the aggressor is often solid if not simply following the grab.
> 
> Not sure about the meaning of the rest of this paragraph, but Hapkido, among other things is about defense of self and defeat of an opponent. We are not Aikido with some quasi-religious "world peace" agenda...
> 
> I believe that reaction to grabs is essential but to say that "no one grabs like that" simply indicates you have been lucky enough to have never been grabbed in a fight.


Dear Kevin,

To me if your grabed hard and fast it's very hard to apply a lock without a set-up strike or two or your able to quickly off balance the guy. 
Maybe you'll be lucky enough to see it comming perphaps you can avoid and redirect.

This brings up a point that's been bothering me since Bruce came back from Korea and started writing about how at that Dojang he was in they trainned with full force grabs and due to thier techniques of Hapki Yu Sul the force didn't matter. 
And the rest of HKD from Ji or whom ever was at the level of YuSul so we needed a set-up strike.

I still don't get all that or buy into that fully at this time I need more info.

Thoughts


----------



## iron_ox

Hello Stuart,

I experienced the same thing at a different dojang in Korea, full force grabs etc., but I have always trained like this - the reality is that an unbalance works well, and at times so do set-up strikes, but with proper body mechanics, a technique can be easily applied because the "direction" of the technique is to "break down" the opponent and make compliance easier.

Obviously I cannot make sweeping generalizations about what other schools do, and would not, so not sure how everyone else deals with such grabs.


----------



## glad2bhere

Gees, Louise!!! 

I don't think I ever realized how easy it is for folks to take a comment and run with it!  How about we slow down for just a bit, 'kay? 

First off, I have no problem with being grabbed, or being grabbed "hard". I think it is good training and I am right there with Kevin that I am not teaching some cosmic union between myself and my opponent. I didn't ask the attacker to come after me and I honestly think its part of my responsibility to educate a person who makes a bad choice. No humor intended, here, just a staement of fact. I will even go a step farther and say that part of the character development that I work towards with my students is that they are learning to execute some pretty nasty techniques on others and they need the development so as not to misuse their skills. OK So Far? 

The second point is that I don't consider a person who knows what I am going to do before I do it, effectively knows what the result is expected to be, and can easily assume that I will (in the final analysis) not do anything that would truely hurt him an authentic application of skill. The attacker on the street get no such considerations. In this way (and in this way only) do I discount the use of such "total body lock-out" kinds of grabs. 

Lastly, I do not eschew the role of pre-emptive strikes. Ueyshiba is said to have stated that Aikido is "90% atemi" (See: Shioda). As far as the execution of yu sool level Hapkido I use pre-emptive strikes and kicks all the time. When I practice Hapkiyusool level Hapkido I purposely elect NOT to use strikes or kicks to "soften-up" my partner as an additional challenge to polishing my accuracy and attention to detail.  I hope this helps. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere

After I wrote the last post I had a thought. 

Lets say I am teaching my Hapkido class and rather than use the standard yu sool response, I elect to use the hapkiyusool equivalent. I wonder how many reading this post would consider that a misuse of material. Certainly I don't want to be seen to fumble and fuss, and I always want to look like I am in complete control of what is going on, but would I be stepping across some unseen line to use a technique or skill which the typical student in my class is not privey to succeed and then require my students to make do with what might be (arguably) a lesser skill?  Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

Bruce


......As far as the execution of yu sool level Hapkido I use pre-emptive strikes and kicks all the time. When I practice Hapkiyusool level Hapkido I purposely elect NOT to use strikes or kicks to "soften-up" my partner as an additional challenge to polishing my accuracy and attention to detail. I hope this helps....

Bruce

At this Hapkiyusool level are you saying the techniques will work just a well from that hard and fast grab as the Yu Sool level Hapkido? 

If so are you saying at Hapkiyusool level there's never a need to strike due the effectiveness of this level of technique?

And what might be the difference if you can explain why one level may out class the other?


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

I need to keep clarifiying this because it is very easy to get something going around that is not accurate. Let me take these separately. 

".....At this Hapkiyusool level are you saying the techniques will work just a well from that hard and fast grab as the Yu Sool level Hapkido? ...." 

Within the context of a training atmosphere I find that the hapkiyusool techniques work better than the yu sool techniques. What would happen out on the street, I have absolutely no idea. Within the controlled environment of training the hapkiyusool ounce-fer-ounce is better.

"......If so are you saying at Hapkiyusool level there's never a need to strike due the effectiveness of this level of technique?...." 

The key word is "need". I must say that whether I was using yu sool level or hapkiyusool level, if I was attacked my response would undoubtedly start with a strike or kick. Thats me and thats the way I indoctrinate my students. The choice to train without a pre-emptive strike is a training concession that forces me to be more accurate and detailed in my execution. I am sure that the assumption is that my execution on the street would only be the better for this approach.  

".......And what might be the difference if you can explain why one level may out class the other?....." 

Sorry, but I really think that you are viewing this in a very inaccurate way. You might as well ask which is "better" ---- Checkers or Chess. Being "out-classed" does not enter into this. You might as well represent that Ji has wasted his life when he could have learned something much more sophisticated, yes? To my way of thinking thats not the way it works. Ji is happy with what he does. Myung is happy with what he does. Sims is happy with what he did and not has moved on to a refinement. To my way of thinking its the same as my sword. I could have stayed with the bamboo sword work of Myung, but why? There are other levels to move up to with sword. Are we, as practitioners, not mandated to exceed our teachers, and our students to exceed us?  Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Disco

Whether it's realized or not, we at some point in training partake of both Hapkiyusool and Yu Sool. Example; the wrist grabs. How many are taught without the use of a strike to insure accomplishment? Pressure point techniques are another example. Just offering this up to attempt to tie the two together.


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> I need to keep clarifiying this because it is very easy to get something going around that is not accurate. Let me take these separately.
> 
> ".....At this Hapkiyusool level are you saying the techniques will work just a well from that hard and fast grab as the Yu Sool level Hapkido? ...."
> 
> Within the context of a training atmosphere I find that the hapkiyusool techniques work better than the yu sool techniques. What would happen out on the street, I have absolutely no idea. Within the controlled environment of training the hapkiyusool ounce-fer-ounce is better.
> 
> "......If so are you saying at Hapkiyusool level there's never a need to strike due the effectiveness of this level of technique?...."
> 
> The key word is "need". I must say that whether I was using yu sool level or hapkiyusool level, if I was attacked my response would undoubtedly start with a strike or kick. Thats me and thats the way I indoctrinate my students. The choice to train without a pre-emptive strike is a training concession that forces me to be more accurate and detailed in my execution. I am sure that the assumption is that my execution on the street would only be the better for this approach.
> 
> ".......And what might be the difference if you can explain why one level may out class the other?....."
> 
> Sorry, but I really think that you are viewing this in a very inaccurate way. You might as well ask which is "better" ---- Checkers or Chess. Being "out-classed" does not enter into this. You might as well represent that Ji has wasted his life when he could have learned something much more sophisticated, yes? To my way of thinking thats not the way it works. Ji is happy with what he does. Myung is happy with what he does. Sims is happy with what he did and not has moved on to a refinement. To my way of thinking its the same as my sword. I could have stayed with the bamboo sword work of Myung, but why? There are other levels to move up to with sword. Are we, as practitioners, not mandated to exceed our teachers, and our students to exceed us? Thoughts? Comments?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


I'm just trying understand something:

1. Why is Hapkiyu Sool better maybe you missing something in your own system like correct way to off balancing someone, or setting up the techniques or use of your foot work better to make the technique work?

I find that many HKD people have'nt went deep enough or were never taught how to really make the techniques work. And I think it's the way HKD taught that's the problem not this or that level. 

If you check out some Aikido or Daito Ryu they still teach many principles and they they apply in real life that seems to have been left out of the Hapkido.

2. In your curriculum there's nothing in it thats like Hapkiyu Sool at all?


----------



## glad2bhere

Sorry, Stuart, but as long as you keep using terms like 'better" this is going to continue to go over your head. 

Its NOT a matter of being "better". 

Neither one of these approaches are "gooder" than the other one. Practitioners are not somehow worse for having only studied one art and not the other. Yu sool and Hapkiyusool are variances of the same art the same way any other possible activity would be an equal subset of some greater whole. You seem to want to make one superior to the other. I have tried both and I can only say that in MY experience what "I" found. Someone else may try both and determine that hapkiyusool is way too much trouble to learn when they are doing essentially the same technique at the yu sool level and it works just fine.  I really don't know how to make this any clearer. What is it about what I am saying that causes you to want to elevate one item above the other? Is it that I characterize hapkiyusool as a "refinement"? A refinement does not immediately make something better. Gold is Gold. Purchasing 24k vs 18k is something a person does for themselves. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Paul B

Hi guys... 



> If you check out some Aikido or Daito Ryu they still teach many principles and they they apply in real life that seems to have been left out of the Hapkido


I am just going to focus on that,from an Aikidoka standpoint. What I picked up when making comparisons(which is never good to do) is what I think Hapkiyusool actually makes use of. Aikidoish "spirals" and usage of timing and shikaku(dead angle) all serve to help the technique along,in a fluid and controlled way. This is not meant to start a Aikido vs. Hapkido flame war,just an observation I have made.

The difference lies not so much in technique,but in the sub areas of technique. Differences in timing,angles,and hand position make for a generally better flow w/o using disruption strikes. At the Aikido Dojo I trained at,we were taught the strikes contained in the waza to allow us to make choices.

So it really comes down to a matter of your perception skills,and technical "linking" or chaining together to create that instance and not be forced to "take it as it comes". Just a couple of thoughts. As usual...I could be way off with this one.


----------



## glad2bhere

No, Paul, I don't think you are off by very much at all. I have only a passing familiarity with Aikido but I don't think a Tomiki practitioner represents what they do as essentially being "better" than a disciple of the late Mochizuki, yes? Or might a person who follows an early Ueyshiba tradition (which is arguably more "authoritative") somehow "better" than a person who follows a tradition posited by Ueyshiba just before he died? I think not, do you? 

But in the larger picture I have a more sizable axe to grind here. One could represent that disciples of Choi Yong Sul (especially here in the States) have continually called other traditions into question while representing the "authenticity" of their own brand of Hapkido arts. Where has this devisivness gotten us? Certainly the leadership enjoys revenues coming their particular way, but the typical practitioner remains untouched. We are not particularly a disloyal lot on this side of the Pacific, but I think one could be excused for tiring of this mean-spirited and small-minded bickering that has gone on for the last 50 years. 

Now I have to tell you that I am not the stuff of which leaders are made. People like Rudy and JR are Waaay ahead of me. But two things I know I can do well. One, I can be an awfully supportive and appreciative follower to the right leader. Secondly I am in a place in my life where I am no longer willing to blindly participate in one more devisive activity for the Hapkido community. For sometime in the past I felt as though I needed some special authority to speak up on important matters. Then I "discovered" that people of inordinately questionable vitae could say outrageous stuff and be heard--- even when it was stone damaging to the Hapkido community. 

So f*** a bunch of "authority". 

I can't "make" other people be more cooperative or tolerant, but I also don't have to sit around quietly while they waste my life. 
Thats how this string got started. 

Thanks for letting me vent. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Paul B

> I don't think a Tomiki practitioner represents what they do as essentially being "better" than a disciple of the late Mochizuki, yes? Or might a person who follows an early Ueyshiba tradition (which is arguably more "authoritative") somehow "better" than a person who follows a tradition posited by Ueyshiba just before he died?


No Bruce. Not in most instances. I'm not going to drag Aikido's baggage in here! There's enough taking up space already!  Seriously though,I have been to many Aikido Dojo,to compare first hand the different "styles",and I will say that some schools are definitely more fluid and "realistic" in their approach than others. But what MA couldn't you say that about?



> I think one could be excused for tiring of this mean-spirited and small-minded bickering that has gone on for the last 50 years.


Agreed. That's why I see a common standard as helping Hapkido instead of hindering it. I also like to think of myself as a loyal Hapkidoin,and would definitely get behind any effort for unity. Hapkido needs it.


----------



## Master Todd Miller

First of all Hapki-Yu Sool and Hapkido are one and the same!  I understand why Bruce uses the two different terms but they are one and the same.  DJN Choi taught a Martial Art, Hapkido/HapkiYuSool.  The difference is in the execution of the techniques.  DJN Choi was against using strikes at the start of training because of people relying to heavily on strikes and kicks.  DJN Choi did however use strikes and kicks but in his style of teaching those techniques were considerd more advanced training.

The problem with creating a stadered Hapkido is that there are not a whole lot of curicculums to choose from, what I mean by this is that the only curicculums that would be qualified would be those from the Choi liniage.  Now GM Ji's Sin Moo is a different deal IMO and that would have to be treated as such.  Both are good just different.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com


----------



## American HKD

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> First of all Hapki-Yu Sool and Hapkido are one and the same! I understand why Bruce uses the two different terms but they are one and the same. DJN Choi taught a Martial Art, Hapkido/HapkiYuSool. The difference is in the execution of the techniques. DJN Choi was against using strikes at the start of training because of people relying to heavily on strikes and kicks. DJN Choi did however use strikes and kicks but in his style of teaching those techniques were considerd more advanced training.
> 
> The problem with creating a stadered Hapkido is that there are not a whole lot of curicculums to choose from, what I mean by this is that the only curicculums that would be qualified would be those from the Choi liniage. Now GM Ji's Sin Moo is a different deal IMO and that would have to be treated as such. Both are good just different.
> 
> Take care
> 
> www.millersmudo.com


 
Dear Todd or anybody

When I see films of Daito Ryu or Sensei Kondo, to me it looks more like Aikido than the Hapkido I learned or have seen anybody else do for that matter.

Another question is when I've seen films of Aiki-jujutsu from people like Miqueal Ibarra (sp?) it looks very much like Hapkido? Although Master Ibarra says his system is from Daito Ryu

Any insights into this there seems to be fairly big differences here?


----------



## Master Todd Miller

American HKD said:
			
		

> Dear Todd or anybody
> 
> When I see films of Daito Ryu or Sensei Kondo, to me it looks more like Aikido than the Hapkido I learned or have seen anybody else do for that matter.
> 
> Another question is when I've seen films of Aiki-jujutsu from people like Miqueal Ibarra (sp?) it looks very much like Hapkido? Although Master Ibarra says his system is from Daito Ryu
> 
> Any insights into this there seems to be fairly big differences here?



IMHO Doju Nim Choi's Hapkido was what he learned from his teacher Takeda Sokaku.  Kondo Sensei learned from a few Aikido Masters so his DRAJJ would have a more Aikidoish look.

From what I have seen from DJN Choi's longtime student, Hapkido is what DRAJJ would look like in Korea.  Some will say it matters what you call an Art but that was not how Takeda or Choi thought.  

From every source I have talked with about Choi, Yong Sool "It was his sense and execution of technique that was most impressive" is the number 1 thing you always hear.

More to come.

www.millersmudo.com


----------



## glad2bhere

1.Scoop Kick		
Myung: 	Inside low scoop kick (an da re met cha gi) 
Suh:		Turn inside heel kick (ahn koom chi dohl li ki)
Kim:						(an da re cha gi ) 

2.Side Kick 
Myung:	Side Kick (yup cha ki) 
Suh:		Side Kick (yuhp cha ki)
Kim: 		Side Kick (ha dan yop cha gi) 

3.Inside Swivel Kick 
Myung:	low circle heel kick (de kum chi met cha dol re ki)
Suh:		Not Identified
Kim: 					(dwee chook bake u ro jji gi) 

4.Outside Swivel Kick (Circle Kick)
Myung: 	Low curve kick (jok do met cha dol re ki) 
Suh: 		Not Identified 
Kim:					( chok do hoo ri gi)  


You folks will recognize, I think the first four kicking techniques of the minimal standard which I have made available for your inspection on my website, at least until we can find a more neutral location. 

Please notice that I am currently working on Korean equivalents for these techniques. So far the single most common technique is the simple Side Kick (aka:Yop Chagi). I mention this because you will notice that even the Korean for this particular is not universal. I think the "Scoop Kick", is a good representation of what I am running into so far. Curiously just about everyone has this kick but the names are not as close as the Side Kick. 

Flipping things over, there are kicks such as the "Front Kick" which not only has a few varioations but is also named the same despite variances in execution. For instance a "Front Kick" is seen to use the toe (which might otherwise be called a "toe kick"), the ball of the foot as well as the top of the foot, and the heel of the foot after the fashion of what I know as a "Front Heel-thrust Kick". 

I have investigated both He Young Kimm and Han Jae Ji and both simply use numbers to identify kicks, though, the orders are different (of course). Would anyone like to venture some thoughts on selecting Korean terms to identify the kicks identified for the minimal standard? Perhaps there are TKD or TSD folks who have some thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Paul B

> When I see films of Daito Ryu or Sensei Kondo, to me it looks more like Aikido than the Hapkido I learned or have seen anybody else do for that matter.
> ....snip...
> Any insights into this there seems to be fairly big differences here?


It's been a while but I'll give it a shot.

Two of the major differences you are probably picking up on is the lack of suwari waza and hanmi handachi in Hapkido. In Hapkido it's true that we have seated techniques,but not from seiza,and usually executed in a static manner..(no shikko) 

Hanmi handachi (defender seated,attacker standing) is again present in Hapkido,but in a static, virtually immobile postion again no shikko or knee walking. 

I've never seen video of Ibarra Sensei so I couldn't even touch that one.

Another difference is the use of "Sets" in DRAJJ...the sets are a level to be taught in it's entirety before moving on to the next (from Ikkajo to Nikkajo for example) and to deviate from that in any way is comparable to heresy.

As far as comparing other "styles" of Aiki jutsu to each other....well...I think that one should check around say...the Koryu site and see if that "style" is on it...if not I would be a little suspicious of that "style". Some people would say that Aiki jutsu was a dead art until Takeda Sokaku came along...so...all of a sudden we have a gajillion Aiki jutsu schools that seem to be very similar to Hapkido or Aikido for that matter. Even the schools terminology speaks volumes about its' roots,giving clues about the "inheritors" background.

That's my 2 c's.


----------



## iron_ox

Paul B said:
			
		

> It's been a while but I'll give it a shot.
> 
> Two of the major differences you are probably picking up on is the lack of suwari waza and hanmi handachi in Hapkido. In Hapkido it's true that we have seated techniques,but not from seiza,and usually executed in a static manner..(no shikko)
> 
> Hanmi handachi (defender seated,attacker standing) is again present in Hapkido,but in a static, virtually immobile postion again no shikko or knee walking.
> 
> I've never seen video of Ibarra Sensei so I couldn't even touch that one.
> 
> Another difference is the use of "Sets" in DRAJJ...the sets are a level to be taught in it's entirety before moving on to the next (from Ikkajo to Nikkajo for example) and to deviate from that in any way is comparable to heresy.
> 
> As far as comparing other "styles" of Aiki jutsu to each other....well...I think that one should check around say...the Koryu site and see if that "style" is on it...if not I would be a little suspicious of that "style". Some people would say that Aiki jutsu was a dead art until Takeda Sokaku came along...so...all of a sudden we have a gajillion Aiki jutsu schools that seem to be very similar to Hapkido or Aikido for that matter. Even the schools terminology speaks volumes about its' roots,giving clues about the "inheritors" background.
> 
> That's my 2 c's.



Hello all,

My Japanese is a bit rusty, but I have always been taught seated techniques that were both static and dynamic.  I have seen and practiced knee walking for many years, and used varients of such in technique often.  Is there any other part of the Japanese translation that I missed here?


----------



## Paul B

Nope,Mr. Sogor....that would be my exposure to Hapkido technique talking. I have never seen any seated techniques being taught from seiza or using shikko. I have also never seen it in any books or video...maybe I am looking in the wrong places...lol.

Did you learn shikko and suwari waza from your Hapkido teacher? If so,where did he learn it? The seated techniques I have been shown were from either legs crossed or one leg up.


----------



## Master Todd Miller

Paul B said:
			
		

> Nope,Mr. Sogor....that would be my exposure to Hapkido technique talking. I have never seen any seated techniques being taught from seiza or using shikko. I have also never seen it in any books or video...maybe I am looking in the wrong places...lol.
> 
> Did you learn shikko and suwari waza from your Hapkido teacher? If so,where did he learn it? The seated techniques I have been shown were from either legs crossed or one leg up.



Dear Paul,

The Jungki Kwan teaches seated techniques from pretty much all ground positions such as legs crossed,kneeling, lying down on back and front.  GM Lim learned from DJN Choi, Yong Sul.  These techniques are at the 3rd - 6th Dan level.  Basicly all the techniques we do from a standing position we do from seated positions.  The off-balence is slightly different though.  :asian: 

www.millersmudo.com


----------



## iron_ox

Paul B said:
			
		

> Nope,Mr. Sogor....that would be my exposure to Hapkido technique talking. I have never seen any seated techniques being taught from seiza or using shikko. I have also never seen it in any books or video...maybe I am looking in the wrong places...lol.
> 
> Did you learn shikko and suwari waza from your Hapkido teacher? If so,where did he learn it? The seated techniques I have been shown were from either legs crossed or one leg up.



Hello Paul,

First, Kevin please...again, my Japanese is really rusty, but my "seated techniques" were always done from crossed leg, then taught from a  kneeling position (seiza) - we bow in a kneeling position and this was often the "rest" position, so lots of stuff was taught from there. The "shikko" or knee walking we did was mainly done as a transition from kneeling to one knee up, or for moving around or with a falling opponent - I don't think it was as extensive as some of the Japanese schools that I have attended - but we did do knee walking as a warm up, back and forth across the dojang. 

To the best of my knowledge, the techniques were all taught to my instructor from his instructor, who was a student of Choi, Yong Sul (this was in the UK).  Now that I have come under the instruction of Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, I saw the same techniques being practiced in Korea, and as I understand it, these are directly from Choi himself as well.


----------



## Paul B

Thanks guys. Well you learn something new everyday! I would really enjoy seeing how you guys do these techniques. Thanks for your answers.


----------



## Master Todd Miller

I would really enjoy seeing how you guys do these techniques. Thanks for your answers.

How far are you from Chicago?  I am sure Kevin would welcome you in for a training session as would I but I am in NH!  :asian: 

Take care

www.millersmudo.com


----------



## glad2bhere

OK, so we have talked about DRAJJ and the Hapkido arts for the umpteenth time and decided that they are kinda the same and kinda different. Swell. We should be OK until, what, next week when we do the same dance again? 

Does anyone want to respond to post #108 about regarding identifying techniques according to their execution with standard labels in English or Korean, or is this effectively just a gossip line driven by the need to see ones' opinions in print?  Need a little help here. My hopes were to use the Internet to kinda pull folks together on a project everyone could pitch-in to. If people are not interested, please let me know. Its not as though I don't have other things to do. I suppose if this string were written under other circumstances folks would be labor-like scholars defining and clarifying their rank and standing. This is an opportunity to show what you can really do with all of that expertise and knowledge your ranks bespeak. Whats going on here? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> 1.Scoop Kick
> Myung: Inside low scoop kick (an da re met cha gi)
> Suh: Turn inside heel kick (ahn koom chi dohl li ki)
> Kim: (an da re cha gi )
> 
> *OK*
> 
> 2.Side Kick
> Myung: Side Kick (yup cha ki)
> Suh: Side Kick (yuhp cha ki)
> Kim: Side Kick (ha dan yop cha gi)
> 
> *OK*
> 
> 3.Inside Swivel Kick
> Myung: low circle heel kick (de kum chi met cha dol re ki)
> Suh: Not Identified
> Kim: (dwee chook bake u ro jji gi)
> 
> *We call this a cutting kick because it cuts across like a sickle motion*
> *(with the right foot, direction is right to left using the blade of the foot to hit)*
> 
> 4.Outside Swivel Kick (Circle Kick)
> Myung: Low curve kick (jok do met cha dol re ki)
> Suh: Not Identified
> Kim: ( chok do hoo ri gi)
> 
> *Reverse cutting kick (with the right foot, direction is left to right using the heel to hit)*
> 
> You folks will recognize, I think the first four kicking techniques of the minimal standard which I have made available for your inspection on my website, at least until we can find a more neutral location.
> 
> Please notice that I am currently working on Korean equivalents for these techniques. So far the single most common technique is the simple Side Kick (aka:Yop Chagi). I mention this because you will notice that even the Korean for this particular is not universal. I think the "Scoop Kick", is a good representation of what I am running into so far. Curiously just about everyone has this kick but the names are not as close as the Side Kick.
> 
> Flipping things over, there are kicks such as the "Front Kick" which not only has a few varioations but is also named the same despite variances in execution. For instance a "Front Kick" is seen to use the toe (which might otherwise be called a "toe kick"), the ball of the foot as well as the top of the foot, and the heel of the foot after the fashion of what I know as a "Front Heel-thrust Kick".
> 
> I have investigated both He Young Kimm and Han Jae Ji and both simply use numbers to identify kicks, though, the orders are different (of course). Would anyone like to venture some thoughts on selecting Korean terms to identify the kicks identified for the minimal standard? Perhaps there are TKD or TSD folks who have some thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


See above


----------



## glad2bhere

Yes, and now where do we go to identify a uniform Korean term or uniform English term? I have a different name and you have a different name. How do we reconcile these differences as well as use a term that a Korean national would understand?  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Yes, and now where do we go to identify a uniform Korean term or uniform English term? I have a different name and you have a different name. How do we reconcile these differences as well as use a term that a Korean national would understand? Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Since these aren't common names like side or round figure what's a more 
descriptive term.

Swivel or cutting?  Probably sickle kick is the most desciptive I think?


----------



## glad2bhere

So now you and I agree that there will be an Inside Sickle Kick and an Outside Sickle Kick. Do we then transliterate "sickle kick" into Korean or do we work to find a common Korean term for each technique and simply equate the two (IE. American "sickle kick" = Korean "round kick")? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> So now you and I agree that there will be an Inside Sickle Kick and an Outside Sickle Kick. Do we then transliterate "sickle kick" into Korean or do we work to find a common Korean term for each technique and simply equate the two (IE. American "sickle kick" = Korean "round kick")?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


 
I perfer to only use the English and our transliterate our term to Korean.


----------



## glad2bhere

I thought it was interesting that someone on another net is asking about whether he is learning authentic Hapkido. Didn't specify any particular style or kwan, but just wanted to know if what he was learning was authentic. 

What do you think? Do you think a minimal standard (which is to say) a common "Hapkido language" would have helped in this case?   Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Paul B

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> What do you think? Do you think a minimal standard (which is to say) a common "Hapkido language" would have helped in this case


 
Hi Bruce,

I think with all the ummm....liberal use of the term Hapkido,this type of minimal standard would at least give a newbie good questions to ask,and then make an informed decision. Rather than just taking Mst. So&So's word for it. Then again,some people don't care,they are happy learning whatever's thrown at them. I think the more websites and books that include it,the better.


----------



## MDFJ

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I thought it was interesting that someone on another net is asking about whether he is learning authentic Hapkido. Didn't specify any particular style or kwan, but just wanted to know if what he was learning was authentic.
> 
> What do you think? Do you think a minimal standard (which is to say) a common "Hapkido language" would have helped in this case?   Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



I think it would have helped indeed, because the answer to the question of "authenticity" would have depended on who was being asked the question...

Wish you well in your continued endeavour...

Best Regards

Marc


----------



## glad2bhere

OK, but this raises an intersting question regarding usage. 

a.) Does Mr. Student use a MS to say "I understand that at a basic level ANY Hapkido would expect me to know X...., Y....., and Z.....  I don't see us learning this and wonder when this will happen"?

or 

b.) Does Mr. Teacher use a MS to say "I understand that you want to learn Hapkido. At the most basic level everyone I know who trains in Hapkido needs to develop at least these skills.  Are you game?"

or 

c.) Does Mr Teacher use the MS to say "I teach Hapkido here but not all of what you might find in a full-blown Hapkido school. Here are the most basic skills and of these, I teach this and this and this." 

or

d.) Does Mr. Student use a MS to say "I understand that at a basic level ANY Hapkido would expect me to know X...., Y....., and Z.....  I am real excited to do this technique and this technique but am not  interested in learning this over here. Do I really have to know ALL of this plus others?"

Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I thought it was interesting that someone on another net is asking about whether he is learning authentic Hapkido. Didn't specify any particular style or kwan, but just wanted to know if what he was learning was authentic.
> 
> What do you think? Do you think a minimal standard (which is to say) a common "Hapkido language" would have helped in this case?   Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Hello Bruce,

Here lies a pitfall of a minimal standard if all it is is a list of techniques - without lieage or history, anyone can say they "do that stuff" therfore I am Hapkido".

Hapkido (as you know all too well) is no just a list of techniques, but a philosophy of application and training.  I hope this is kept in mind while a general list is created.

Authenticity is not a question of "who" is asked - lineage and training form the cornerstone upon which Hapkido is built.


----------



## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> OK, but this raises an intersting question regarding usage.
> 
> a.) Does Mr. Student use a MS to say "I understand that at a basic level ANY Hapkido would expect me to know X...., Y....., and Z.....  I don't see us learning this and wonder when this will happen"?
> 
> *If he doesn't see it expected learning at the basic level, might not be a Hapkido school - time to move on.  Score one for a MS.*
> or
> 
> b.) Does Mr. Teacher use a MS to say "I understand that you want to learn Hapkido. At the most basic level everyone I know who trains in Hapkido needs to develop at least these skills.  Are you game?"
> 
> *Ability to demonstrate that what is being taught is part of a more uniform understanding of Hapkido.  Score two for a MS.*
> or
> 
> c.) Does Mr Teacher use the MS to say "I teach Hapkido here but not all of what you might find in a full-blown Hapkido school. Here are the most basic skills and of these, I teach this and this and this."
> 
> *"Oops, I don't know Hapkido really, and if I pass off this stuff as Hapkido, I will be found out as a fraud."  Score three for a MS.*
> or
> 
> d.) Does Mr. Student use a MS to say "I understand that at a basic level ANY Hapkido would expect me to know X...., Y....., and Z.....  I am real excited to do this technique and this technique but am not  interested in learning this over here. Do I really have to know ALL of this plus others?"
> 
> *"I teach a martial art curriculum here son, that comes with an understanding that I am the instructor and you are the student - if you cannot accept what I am teaching, don't let the door hit you on the way out..."  Score four for a MS.*
> Thoughts?  Comments?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Yeah, a MS _could_ have a few uses...


----------



## American HKD

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Yeah, a MS _could_ have a few uses...


 
I agree with Kevin.

Kevin I had an idea of a data base for schools and instructors but it did'nt seem to hit a chord with anyone.

If people had to prove credential on this data base that might help. 

HapkidoInfo.Net has a data base but anyone can put anything on there unsubstantiated.

My idea is for a controlled data base and verifcations of claims are required.


----------



## glad2bhere

One other point that likewise comes to mind is the use of the name of the item as opposed to the action in identifying a technique. By this I mean do most people say "knifehand"  ("soo do") or "knifehand striking" ("soo do chigi")? By way of extension is a Knee-strike a "strike" ("--chigi"), a "thrust" ("---Ji-ru-gi") or a "kick" ("---chagi").

I know this must seem like picking nits but if one is to stay consistent with the grappling later on we need to be consistent from the start. What makes this important is when later one begins to identify techniques of a grappling nature. For instance, is it enough to identify a technique as "outer wrist" and simply identify a given technique as representative of that sort of biomechanic? Or, do we specify that the technique is an "out-wrist-throw" meaning "not only ought a person be able to twist the wrist out, but he ought to be able to do it with enough authority to cause the partner to want to roll (and should himself be able to roll with such a technique)." Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart-the-pain-seeking-missile:   :ultracool 

Given the nature of Hapkido in the States do you think this is do-able?  I think I understand what you are advocating, but wouldn't the result be a little like advocating "certification" or "licensure". By this I mean that your idea would probably be helpful, but I see only the authentic teachers participating and maybe even not then. I think the people with doubtful credentials would resist or avoid such a listing. Its a lot easier for folks to simply seek-out a listing on some Net that has a more lenient participation policy. 

I remember once I had a thought about organizing a database of recognized folk but later changed my mind. The approach was based on the idea that people "know" who legit teachers are and those people would be somehow identified by their peers or teachers. The problem was that there was a lot of potential for hurt feelings and competition so I never did anything with it. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart-the-pain-seeking-missile: :ultracool
> 
> Given the nature of Hapkido in the States do you think this is do-able? I think I understand what you are advocating, but wouldn't the result be a little like advocating "certification" or "licensure". By this I mean that your idea would probably be helpful, but I see only the authentic teachers participating and maybe even not then. I think the people with doubtful credentials would resist or avoid such a listing. Its a lot easier for folks to simply seek-out a listing on some Net that has a more lenient participation policy.
> 
> I remember once I had a thought about organizing a database of recognized folk but later changed my mind. The approach was based on the idea that people "know" who legit teachers are and those people would be somehow identified by their peers or teachers. The problem was that there was a lot of potential for hurt feelings and competition so I never did anything with it. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

Your funny, however I'm don't mind the pain I guess that's why I stuck with Hapkido all these years, but I'm starting to think the politics hurt more than the the joint locks!

The legits all know who they are but the public has no clue. Anybody can say they teach anything in this country.

Some how the "legits" have to stick together for the good HAPKIDO and of the public and potential students if not Hapkido will go futher down hill into whatever anyone want's it to be.

Many industries pull together for sweeping issues that effects all of them equally regardless of the fact they compete financially. 

If Hapkidoin don't/can't band together for certain issues that's will evenually ruin the system except for a very few.

I beleive nows the time we need to do something IMHO.

I would like to start just data base who would like to help me?


----------



## glad2bhere

So how is this to be done? Certainly simple self-report is out. 

1.) Does one simply take an existing roster and go down the list asking for folks so named to send documentation? 

2.) Does one go to the major organizations and take their respective rosters and meld them together? 

3.) Do we present a specific name to a number of recognized authorities and have them validate this person relative to their understanding or experience? 

4.) Other possibilities?????

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

.......So how is this to be done? Certainly simple self-report is out. 

1.) Does one simply take an existing roster and go down the list asking for folks so named to send documentation? *That's one way, send out e-mails the word will get around I'm sure.*

2.) Does one go to the major organizations and take their respective rosters and meld them together? *Possibility*

3.) Do we present a specific name to a number of recognized authorities and have them validate this person relative to their understanding or experience? 

*Yes maybe *

4.) Other possibilities?????

Best Wishes, 

Bruce..........

Bruce 

As you said due the the political nature of Hapkido & MA I basically feel that if I really want it I have to do it myself or with another interested parties as a private project not sanctioned by anyone.

If someone want's to be put on you either meet the criteria set forth or not.

IMHO you should come from a Choi/Ji lineage and call what you do Hapkido.

I'm going for a Traditonal Hapkido datebase not a free for all.

As far as what should the criteria be maybe something like this.

Affiliation
Year when received each rank
Proof rank 
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name 
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

It would be easy to see if people can't provide the info just from these few questions.

Since no association is to approve this it's up to me, us, whoever to set the standards.


----------



## Master Todd Miller

Affiliation
Year when received each rank
Proof rank 
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name 
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

I think this is a great place to start!  These qustions will answer most questions!  This gives the reader the necessary info in order to choose the right Association for them!

Each group will always have different requirements, this will never change!  What needs to be offered is choices!  Do you want Classical Choi, Yong Sul Hapkido or do you want Ji, Han Jae Sin Moo?

There are differences but choice is what makes us free!  Both have much to offer, it just depends on your perspective!

Take care

www.millersmudo.com  :asian:


----------



## glad2bhere

Does there need to be a discrimination made between which teachers gave which ranks at which time? 

The reason I ask is that not all people stay with the same teacher throughout their career. I think we all know that while some people stay with a single teacher and some people might have one or two teachers, the greater number of pratitioners have moved through a few teachers and maybe even a few organizations.

I like Todds' approach but maybe we need to take his questions and ask them, in turn, for each separate rank. Does this make sense? 

For instance: 

1st Dan: 
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank 
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name 
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

2nd Dan: 
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank 
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name 
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

3rd Dan: 
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank 
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name 
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training
etc etc etc etc       

Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Does there need to be a discrimination made between which teachers gave which ranks at which time?
> 
> The reason I ask is that not all people stay with the same teacher throughout their career. I think we all know that while some people stay with a single teacher and some people might have one or two teachers, the greater number of pratitioners have moved through a few teachers and maybe even a few organizations.
> 
> I like Todds' approach but maybe we need to take his questions and ask them, in turn, for each separate rank. Does this make sense?
> 
> For instance:
> 
> 1st Dan:
> Affiliation
> Year when received rank
> Proof rank
> Years in Hapkido
> Teachers name
> How long with teacher
> Lineage
> References who can validate proof training
> 
> 2nd Dan:
> Affiliation
> Year when received rank
> Proof rank
> Years in Hapkido
> Teachers name
> How long with teacher
> Lineage
> References who can validate proof training
> 
> 3rd Dan:
> Affiliation
> Year when received rank
> Proof rank
> Years in Hapkido
> Teachers name
> How long with teacher
> Lineage
> References who can validate proof training
> etc etc etc etc
> 
> Thoughts? Comments?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce

I stayed with one guy for over 12 years but if someone else changed up several times I don't care as long as they're legit Hapkido. 

My main goal is to weed out Hapkido from not Hapkido. We all know some promote faster than others so that may be looked down upon by some, so up to point info is needed after that it may detract or embarass unnecessarily that's not my goal.

I want to strengten the Traditional Hapkido movement/people not divide us into micro-catagories that will lead to other problems.
 
Moreover does 20 years with one guy make one a good teacher? That's something a database can't say and I'm not interested in getting into. 

But providing a resource of sorts may help us to some degree.


----------



## American HKD

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> Affiliation
> Year when received each rank
> Proof rank
> Years in Hapkido
> Teachers name
> How long with teacher
> Lineage
> References who can validate proof training
> 
> I think this is a great place to start! These qustions will answer most questions! This gives the reader the necessary info in order to choose the right Association for them!
> 
> Each group will always have different requirements, this will never change! What needs to be offered is choices! Do you want Classical Choi, Yong Sul Hapkido or do you want Ji, Han Jae Sin Moo?
> 
> There are differences but choice is what makes us free! Both have much to offer, it just depends on your perspective!
> 
> Take care
> 
> www.millersmudo.com :asian:


Todd 

I think you have the idea.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

".....My main goal is to weed out Hapkido from not Hapkido. We all know some promote faster than others so that may be looked down upon by some, so up to point info is needed after that it may detract or embarass unnecessarily that's not my goal....." 

Absolutely. Needless embarrassment is not what anyone wants. Maybe what I need is a better idea of how you are moving towards your goal of discriminating between "genuine" Hapkido and that which a person has organized for themselves. How would you like these qualifications satisfied? What will you know for a fact about a given person once they have provided you with the desired material? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

........Absolutely. Needless embarrassment is not what anyone wants. Maybe what I need is a better idea of how you are moving towards your goal of discriminating between "genuine" Hapkido and that which a person has organized for themselves. How would you like these qualifications satisfied? What will you know for a fact about a given person once they have provided you with the desired material? Thoughts? ........

Bruce,

After we get the required info that's it. 

We really don't know much as I said befoire we can't tell if they're good instructors, technicians, nice people, or anything.

What we do know is they completed Hapkido training with someone reputable and have legit credentials. A data base can't do anymore.

This datbase won't act as a sanctioning body but only independent
varification so to speak as to the roots of that person and rank in Hapkido anymore would be a rank validating association which we already discussed and got shot down in this forum.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

That being said, would a "family tree" of related individuals serve the same purpose, or would that tend to pidgeon-hole folks in some needless way? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> That being said, would a "family tree" of related individuals serve the same purpose, or would that tend to pidgeon-hole folks in some needless way? Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Daer Bruce

That sounds good as part of the data base.


----------



## Kumbajah

There is a family tree at http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_info.com.html maybe helpful in compiling information.

Brian


----------



## iron_ox

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> There is a family tree at http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_info.com.html maybe helpful in compiling information.
> 
> Brian




Hello Stuart,

I say if you are going to do this, start fresh - that is a submit without verification page and full of questionable stuff...


----------



## glad2bhere

Still having a hard time getting my head around this. How about a couple of quick questions?

1.) The data base will based on a.) the completion of a questionaire and b.) substantiated by documentation? 

2.) Will the data submitted necessarily be validated by some personage or can an individual just invoke someone as their teacher? 

3.) How much of the material practiced must be Hapkido as opposed to Aikido, Judo or Ju-jutsu in order to be recognized as a practitioner of authentic Hapkido? 

4.) In the end, those folks who have bounced from pillar to post with their MA career and have decided that Hapkido is the identity that they want to use to represent themselves in the Hapkido community, how do they figure into this approach?  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

.........Still having a hard time getting my head around this. How about a couple of quick questions?

1.) The data base will based on a.) the completion of a questionaire and b.) substantiated by documentation?  *Yes*

2.) Will the data submitted necessarily be validated by some personage or can an individual just invoke someone as their teacher? *Must be validated of course (referances)*

3.) How much of the material practiced must be Hapkido as opposed to Aikido, Judo or Ju-jutsu in order to be recognized as a practitioner of authentic Hapkido? *I dont understand the question either you have HKD knowledge or not? Is Aiki-Jutsu Hapkido or not? *

4.) In the end, those folks who have bounced from pillar to post with their MA career and have decided that Hapkido is the identity that they want to use to represent themselves in the Hapkido community, how do they figure into this approach? Thoughts? ..............

*I for example have a 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th dan certs in Hapkido over a 25 year period all from known Hapkido Masters or Associations.*

*Someone who's 1st dan in TKD, 2nd dan in Jujutsu, 3rd dan in Hapkido with out legit 1st or 2nd dans in HKD won't get on my **Database.*

*How could they? *


----------



## glad2bhere

".....How much of the material practiced must be Hapkido as opposed to Aikido, Judo or Ju-jutsu in order to be recognized as a practitioner of authentic Hapkido? I dont understand the question either you have HKD knowledge or not? Is Aiki-Jutsu Hapkido or not? ...." 

I was not thinking so much of that as much as the other examples I gave. One person comes to mind who has become something of a well-known personality--- with his own organization and everything. His background was almost exclusively in Aikido. His claim to being Hapkido is apparently only because some person from Korea came to the States and grandfathered him in as "Hapkido".  Matter of fact I just stumbled across his website today! 

(Excuse me I have to sneeze--- ah- ah-- aahhhhwomaf!!)  Feels a whole lot better getting that out of the way. Anyhow, what do you think? Do you suppose a person who is validated only because it is organizationally beneficial would make it as an authentic Hapkido practitioner? Of course, it HAS been a few years and by now he actually might have some skill, yes?  Who knows? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Disco

Let me throw the "fly in the ointment" so to speak. There were many Korean instructors, that came to America during the "Big Influx" in the 70's & early 80's, that taught Hapkido but had no affiliation to any organization. The family tree was mentioned, but these instructors are not there because of non-affiliations. We all know that there is / was plenty of infighting in Korea within the kwans and governing organizations. In fact it still is on going today, from the current information being given. So how can anyone verify if someone submits their resume with those instructors listed? Can't be done. Also, it is somewhat common knowledge, that there are more than a few people running around with so-called legit paper, but actually don't have the skills to back it up. What do you do with these people, if paper is the key to opening the door? You are trying to stay out of the "New Organization" label at all costs, but in reality your right at the cusp of becoming one. I applaud what your attempting to accomplish, but from my perspective, your swimming against the tide.


----------



## shesulsa

I do not wish to be argumentative, however, I have the same question Disco has.

 The family feuds of the Korean immigrants who brought their arts to America leaves some very capable, very knowledgeable, very talented and quite viable artists without Kwan unless they formed their own. Because politics often unfortunately divides great artists, is this perceived as a break in lineage by all? Does this mean the artist who successfully breaks out in his/her own teaches an inferior style?

  I would like to hear others opinions on this.  

 An example that affects me is DJN Joo Bang Lee. He broke from his master long ago - for arguments sake, let's say he currently taught Hapkido. Would he then be not viable in the database?

I suppose I'm not clear on how you would address issues such as this?

  Thanks.


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I do not wish to be argumentative, however, I have the same question Disco has.
> 
> The family feuds of the Korean immigrants who brought their arts to America leaves some very capable, very knowledgeable, very talented and quite viable artists without Kwan unless they formed their own. Because politics often unfortunately divides great artists, is this perceived as a break in lineage by all? Does this mean the artist who successfully breaks out in his/her own teaches an inferior style?
> 
> I would like to hear others opinions on this.
> 
> An example that affects me is DJN Joo Bang Lee. He broke from his master long ago - for arguments sake, let's say he currently taught Hapkido. Would he then be not viable in the database?
> 
> I suppose I'm not clear on how you would address issues such as this?
> 
> Thanks.


I guess no system is perfect and there are exceptions but how are we supposed to know who's who, and who know's what with out some paper trail or references that are beyond question?

Perhaps people like this will have to submit special circumstances, if it's Joo Bang Lee want a listing there's no question of skill but he dosn't call his Art Hapkido so he's out.

I know there are related arts to Hapkido then called it Hapkido not something else. I don't think a Hwrang Do or Kuk Sool Master would just up and give me a 5th dan site unseen or list my school as one of thier's do you?


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I do not wish to be argumentative, however, I have the same question Disco has.
> 
> The family feuds of the Korean immigrants who brought their arts to America leaves some very capable, very knowledgeable, very talented and quite viable artists without Kwan unless they formed their own. Because politics often unfortunately divides great artists, is this perceived as a break in lineage by all? *The term "politics" or "bad politics seems to creep into discussions anytime lineage is a question.  Bottom line, you have Hapkido lineage or not. If not, that is fine, but you then should not call what you teach Hapkido... *
> 
> Does this mean the artist who successfully breaks out in his/her own teaches an inferior style? *No, not inferior at all, just NOT Hapkido.*
> 
> I would like to hear others opinions on this.
> 
> An example that affects me is DJN Joo Bang Lee. He broke from his master long ago - *(According to DJN Lee, his master died and was cremated with every belonging he had -apparently including all photos and documentation verifying his existance.  It has been only in the last few years with the advent of widespread internet access that he claims some rank from Choi, Yong Sul - supposedly gotten at an event in 1968.) * for arguments sake, let's say he currently taught Hapkido. Would he then be not viable in the database? *If his rank could be verified, from the Choi/Ji lineage, why not put him in the database - BUT as you well know, Hwa Rang Do is NOT Hapkido - according to DJN Lee, so I would bet he would not want to be included.*
> 
> I suppose I'm not clear on how you would address issues such as this?  *Don't really see an issue - no ranky, no includey - unless I missed your point altogether -   *
> Thanks.



I see the idea of a database as a really simple one - include verifiable rank and make it, don't and you cannot be included - people, we are talking about a martial art whose founder died in 1986!!!! He left a sole man as his successor and lots of graded students -  this really is not that hard.  It may, however, be a bitter pill to swallow for some that want to jump on the Hapkido bandwagon after years of telling us all they were not Hapkido...


----------



## shesulsa

American HKD said:
			
		

> I guess no system is perfect and there are exceptions but how are we supposed to know who's who, and who know's what with out some paper trail or references that are beyond question?
> 
> Perhaps people like this will have to submit special circumstances, if it's Joo Bang Lee want a listing there's no question of skill but he dosn't call his Art Hapkido so he's out.
> 
> I know there are related arts to Hapkido then called it Hapkido not something else. I don't think a Hwrang Do or Kuk Sool Master would just up and give me a 5th dan site unseen or list my school as one of thier's do you?


 I'm not making my question clear, so let me break it down a bit.

 1.  Is this directory purely voluntary, i.e. the opportunity to register will be presented in some fashion, then all who wish to register must voluntarily do so or not be recorded?

 2.  In the case of JBL purely for example's sake, he is 8th Dan (I think) Hapkido, but parted ways with his master (the nature of why I am not privy to).  Would he be a) invited or b) ignored?

 3.  Your last paragraph is confusing to me, I'm not talking about rewarding an artist with a dan degree sight unseen, I am speaking of certified, rank-holding individuals who have since parted ways with their master.  My observation (which could be wrong) of some Korean masters is that the habit is made of completely disenfranchising individuals or groups of individuals when a parting of the ways occurs; in fact, the excised individual or group - regardless of rank or ability or contribution - are often claimed to be unknown or demoted to white belt according to the master.

 So again, my question is, do artists like this have a place in your Hapkido registry?  I'm guessing not - would that be correct?


----------



## American HKD

iron_ox said:
			
		

> I see the idea of a database as a really simple one - include verifiable rank and make it, don't and you cannot be included - people, we are talking about a martial art whose founder died in 1986!!!! He left a sole man as his successor and lots of graded students - this really is not that hard. It may, however, be a bitter pill to swallow for some that want to jump on the Hapkido bandwagon after years of telling us all they were not Hapkido...


 
Thanks Kevin I also see it as a simple, some people want to complicate a simple matter.


----------



## Paul B

Here's one for you guys....I have my lower Gup Certs. through the WHF...then from 4th on,through Hanminjok. There was(is) very little difference in training before and after my Teacher decided to go with GM Seo...so...what do you think? 

GM Myung's textbooks were used throughout my Gup's,but I guess since my Teacher decided to change org's,that automatically makes me...what...KSW? 
:lol: I don't think so.


----------



## iron_ox

Paul B said:
			
		

> Here's one for you guys....I have my lower Gup Certs. through the WHF...then from 4th on,through Hanminjok. There was(is) very little difference in training before and after my Teacher decided to go with GM Seo...so...what do you think?
> 
> GM Myung's textbooks were used throughout my Gup's,but I guess since my Teacher decided to change org's,that automatically makes me...what...KSW?
> :lol: I don't think so.



Hello Paul,

You may not be KSW, but Seo , In Sun is not Hapkido - unless he wants to flaunt his first dan from Choi, third dan from who knows.  Sorry, but he cannot have it both ways - said he was what, 9th, 10th dan KSW for more than 20 years, now poof, Hapkido.

No, what we are talking about is verifiable lineage - not just a collection of techniques - if that were the case, then why not just study from video tapes, then call yourself whatever rank the tapes leave off at?  Simple, that is not a viable way to learn a martial art.

Your instructor may not be learning or have learned a KSW curriculum - but the ranking organization he is with is headed by a KSW ranked person - therefore making Hapkido rank from that organization questionable.

As alsways, just my opinion, we are talking lineage and rank validity here, not how hard someone trains or how good their technique is.


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm not making my question clear, so let me break it down a bit.
> 
> 1.  Is this directory purely voluntary, i.e. the opportunity to register will be presented in some fashion, then all who wish to register must voluntarily do so or not be recorded?
> 
> 2.  In the case of JBL purely for example's sake, he is 8th Dan (I think) Hapkido, but parted ways with his master (the nature of why I am not privy to).  Would he be a) invited or b) ignored?
> 
> *I would assume, correct me if I'm wrong Stuart, that the defining element is if they have infact got rank - if they no longer teach Hapkido that is one thing, none of his students would be considered Hapkido certainly - but if such a rank existed, he should be on the list if he chose to be.*
> 
> 3.  Your last paragraph is confusing to me, I'm not talking about rewarding an artist with a dan degree sight unseen, I am speaking of certified, rank-holding individuals who have since parted ways with their master.  My observation (which could be wrong) of some Korean masters is that the habit is made of completely disenfranchising individuals or groups of individuals when a parting of the ways occurs; in fact, the excised individual or group - regardless of rank or ability or contribution - are often claimed to be unknown or demoted to white belt according to the master.
> 
> *This very much sounds like the practice of Lee, Joo Bang.  I had never heard of such a thing until I saw it on his web sight.  In addition, it has also been his practice up until recently to deny any connection to Hapkido, then he pops up this "I got an 8th dan from Choi at a 1968 martial arts exposition" - considering HOW Choi gave out certification, this claim is HIGHLY SUSPECT - have you ever seen such a certificate?  Choi always certified his dan grades with paper.*
> 
> So again, my question is, do artists like this have a place in your Hapkido registry?  I'm guessing not - would that be correct?



If they have legitimate rank in the Choi/Ji lineage, they should have their names included - however, if they no longer teach Hapkido and identify their art as something else - then their students should naturally not be considered Hapkidoin.


----------



## shesulsa

Thanks for clearing that up for me, iron_ox.  I was wondering if other Korean masters "disown" their certified students and have heard it is done in more cases than the one, but have not been directly involved in any of these cases so I can't say for certain.

 You and I seem to make similar observations regarding the HRD / Hapkido connection and no, I have never met DJN Lee nor seen any of his certs so I would not know other than what others claim.

 One more question:  Would a teacher provide a registry of his black belts and schools?

 Thanks for your patience with me, folks.  :asian:


----------



## Black Belt FC

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello Paul,
> 
> You may not be KSW, but Seo , In Sun is not Hapkido - unless he wants to flaunt his first dan from Choi, third dan from who knows. Sorry, but he cannot have it both ways - said he was what, 9th, 10th dan KSW for more than 20 years, now poof, Hapkido.
> 
> No, what we are talking about is verifiable lineage - not just a collection of techniques - if that were the case, then why not just study from video tapes, then call yourself whatever rank the tapes leave off at? Simple, that is not a viable way to learn a martial art.
> 
> Your instructor may not be learning or have learned a KSW curriculum - but the ranking organization he is with is headed by a KSW ranked person - therefore making Hapkido rank from that organization questionable.
> 
> As alsways, just my opinion, we are talking lineage and rank validity here, not how hard someone trains or how good their technique is.


The World Kido Federation/Han Min Jok Hapkido Association is as far as I know is a governing body for Hapkido. In fact if my memory serves me well and the facts are correct concerning WKF the first chairman was Choi. Even if Gm In Sun Seo was certified in his later ranks in KSW that wouldnt ex out WKF as a Won for Hapkido. Gm In Sun Seo did receive his black belt directly from Choi, but if you want to play term games on who is pure blood or tainted then be my guess.



Im certified by Gm Seo and WKF/HHA and do not care if anyone accepts my rank or not, in fact it doesnt make a differences to my students or me. Now get on the mat with me or any of my students and I guarantee you that any them can take you to a very dark place. In NYC its on the mat that it matters most not on the wall.



If you plan on making a Hapkido standard be my guess but dont alienate yourself or other practitioners whether they re WKF, WHF, KHF, KFC etc. 

Lugo


----------



## Master Todd Miller

Im certified by Gm Seo and WKF/HHA and do not care if anyone accepts my rank or not, in fact it doesnt make a differences to my students or me. Now get on the mat with me or any of my students and I guarantee you that any them can take you to a very dark place. In NYC its on the mat that it matters most not on the wall.

I think the question is more where did Seo recieve his rank not wheather or not you can go to dark places or not!  Those that have studied Mudo for any number of years should have some skills.  Hapkido is in my opinion either original DJN Choi,Yong Sul Hapkido or Ji, Han Jae Sin Moo.  Any other lineage is not really Hapkido.  Hapkido techniques can be imitated but it really does come down to, do you understand and teach the three principles, 
Wha - Won - Yu along with a recocnized lineage to either Choi or Ji!  Seo's brother is Kuk Sul Won and this is where Seo got his higher ranks!  This is not really true Hapkido!  This does not mean that it does not have any merit.  I have respect for Master West & Master Timmerman who both have been positive forces in Korean Mudo who are from the Seo lineage.  Hapkido has so many different groups and associations these days and we all see the charletans who I will not mention here!  It is important for those of us that claim to teach Hapkido to get together and share what we do.  This gives our students more to choose from.  The major thing I see the further away from the Choi lineage you get is that the techniques tend to be less defined and sharp!  I am not just talking about pain applied in techniques but the off - balencing, This is true Hapkido!  

The Jungki Kwan has just released the Orthodox Hapkido Series of video tapes.  This series is original Choi, Yong Sul Hapkido taught by Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, 9th dan from Choi, Yong Sul.  This video tape series is the basic curiculum from white - Black belt.  This video has added extras of GM Lim demonstrating along with rare video footage of Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sul teaching and demonstrating basic principles of Hapkido.

Hapkido is not about darkness,  Hapkido is about harmony and unity!  

All my best,

www.millersmudo.com


----------



## American HKD

1


----------



## American HKD

Greeting,

I see some problems cropping up in this discussion mainly because the the widespread use of Choi's material with many different leaders and names.
I know some of you think screw the name it's the same techniques and to a point I agree.

The techniques from one line maybe be similar to the other line, but some people broke a way from Choi early on to head thier own system and *not *be part of Hapkido. 

But as far as forming a "Hapkido Database" it's just like it sounds a Hapkido lineage database which is from Choi/Ji they coined the name HKD and stuck to it for the last 50 or so years. 

Moreover consider this does Joo Bang lee & In Hyuk Suh think that thier systems are the same as Hapkido? Thier documented history does'nt mention Choi Young Sool at all? Will they cross rank a HKD dan for dan? Will they list a HKD school as one of thier official schools? 

Why should Hapkido act any different by allowing them up a one way street? 

They both changed the name of Hapkido and fabricated some ridiculus history, didn't giving any credit what so ever to Choi Yong Sool who taught them or thier Masters.

What do you call that? Why would anybody from Hapkido consider them Hapkidoin? Friends Ok, Respect for thier skills for sure! Hapkidoin No!

To Sum up:

1. Hapkido is Hapkido period! 
2. Kuk Sool is Kuk Sool! 
3. Hwrang Do is Hwrang Do! 
4. Bastardized Hapkido is Bastadized Hapkido!


----------



## shesulsa

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greeting,
> 
> I see some problems cropping up in this discussion mainly because the the widespread use of Choi's material with many different leaders and names.
> I know some of you think screw the name it's the same techniques and to a point I agree.
> 
> The techniques from one line maybe be similar to the other line, but some people broke a way from Choi early on to head thier own system and *not *be part of Hapkido.
> 
> But as far as forming a "Hapkido Database" it's just like it sounds a Hapkido lineage database which is from Choi/Ji they coined the name HKD and stuck to it for the last 50 or so years.
> 
> Moreover consider this does Joo Bang lee & In Hyuk Suh think that thier systems are the same as Hapkido? Thier documented history does'nt mention Choi Young Sool at all? Will they cross rank a HKD dan for dan? Will they list a HKD school as one of thier official schools?
> 
> Why should Hapkido act any different by allowing them up a one way street?
> 
> They both changed the name of Hapkido and fabricated some ridiculus history, didn't giving any credit what so ever to Choi Yong Sool who taught them or thier Masters.
> 
> What do you call that? Why would anybody from Hapkido consider them Hapkidoin? Friends Ok, Respect for thier skills for sure! Hapkidoin No!
> 
> To Sum up:
> 
> 1. Hapkido is Hapkido period!
> 2. Kuk Sool is Kuk Sool!
> 3. Hwrang Do is Hwrang Do!
> 4. Bastardized Hapkido is Bastadized Hapkido!


 Again, not to be argumentative, but to be clear - 

 DJN Joo Bang Lee does document in his training manual that he received dan ranking in Hapkido, but he does not call the art he developed Hapkido or KSW or anything else but HRD.  Students of this system, both those affiliated with WHRDA and those not affiliated with WHRDA do not claim lineage Hapkido - we do not say we study or practice Hapkido.

 Now, if I am to follow your reasoning above, I have 1st Dan in my art.  If I were to supplement my course of study with another art or massaged what I know now and call it something different, am I no longer a dan in my original art?  My students would not be the same art I studied, rather the art I created, but does that take away my rank?  Especially if I don't claim to teach the art I rank in?

 Thanks again.


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Again, not to be argumentative, but to be clear -
> 
> DJN Joo Bang Lee does document in his training manual that he received dan ranking in Hapkido, but he does not call the art he developed Hapkido or KSW or anything else but HRD. Students of this system, both those affiliated with WHRDA and those not affiliated with WHRDA do not claim lineage Hapkido - we do not say we study or practice Hapkido.
> 
> Now, if I am to follow your reasoning above, I have 1st Dan in my art. If I were to supplement my course of study with another art or massaged what I know now and call it something different, am I no longer a dan in my original art? My students would not be the same art I studied, rather the art I created, but does that take away my rank? Especially if I don't claim to teach the art I rank in?
> 
> Thanks again.


Greetings

To be clear.

To me it's Ok to study or be ranked in others systems if you wan't to. I have also trainned in other systems and one thing has nothing to do with the other.

If you claim to be a Hapkido Instructor/Master or have a Dan rank in Hapkido you have to prove it. Having dan rank in Jujutsu is not Hapkido or KS or HWD or AKD.

I think that's simple and I hope I answered your question but I'm not sure.


----------



## iron_ox

Black Belt FC said:
			
		

> The World Kido Federation/Han Min Jok Hapkido Association is as far as I know is a governing body for Hapkido.
> 
> *World Kido was set up by the Suh/Seo brothers to give credibility to KSW.  ANYONE in Korea can start a corporation and register with the government - just like Hyundai - doesn't mean they have any "governing" rights.*
> 
> In fact if my memory serves me well and the facts are correct concerning WKF the first chairman was Choi.
> 
> * Then you have a bad memory - Choi was the first Chairman of the Korea Kido Association. *
> 
> Even if Gm In Sun Seo was certified in his later ranks in KSW that wouldnt ex out WKF as a Won for Hapkido. Gm In Sun Seo did receive his black belt directly from Choi, but if you want to play term games on who is pure blood or tainted then be my guess.
> 
> *So, he can hand out under black belts only in Hapkido, since he is only a 1st Dan.  He can hand out what he wants in KSW - nothing too do with "tainted" - more like non-existant rank.*
> 
> 
> Im certified by Gm Seo and WKF/HHA and do not care if anyone accepts my rank or not, in fact it doesnt make a differences to my students or me. Now get on the mat with me or any of my students and I guarantee you that any them can take you to a very dark place. In NYC its on the mat that it matters most not on the wall.
> 
> *Why would "I" wnat to get on the mat and train with a group that 1) is certified from a KSW person 2) has an instructor that thinks so much of himself and "dark places" (between the ears maybe) that the only response to this discussion is a knee jerk reaction of "well, I train with him, so the rank has got to be good".*
> 
> 
> If you plan on making a Hapkido standard be my guess but dont alienate yourself or other practitioners whether they re WKF, WHF, KHF, KFC etc.
> 
> * Who is alienating anyone - maybe the guy that says he can take us to "dark places"?  "KFC" - I'd leave the Colonel out of this one - their chicken is great the world over...*
> 
> Lugo



Lugo,

You are right there in NYC - why not train with Dojunim Chang, Chin Il, Choi's appointed successor if it is authentic Hapkido rank you seek - well actually from your statement, you could care less about rank and more about training in "dark places" - whatever that nonsense is.  Homemade martial arts may be pretty to look at, but they are generally under battle tested, and rely on slick looking photo-ops to capture new students.


----------



## glad2bhere

ouch ouch ouch ouch 

Good Lordy are we hitting the "soft spots, or what!?! 

I want to start with Mike (Cuz you started this!!) and his question about non-aligned masters. Admittedly I took the safer route cuz I didn't want to open this can of worms. The fact is, though, that it needs to be addressed. There are a lot of people who are products of these little one-off "mom-&-pop" Hapkido classes. There are also a greater number of people who studied at TKD or TSD "who also teach Hapkido".  Maybe they got rank and maybe they didn't. Working from a position of "inclusion" rather than "exclusion" how can be make a case for these people? 

Then, spring-boarding off of the question about Joo Bang Lee we have the same question from another point of view. Everybody and the guy down the street knows that both In Hyuk Suh and Joo Bang Lee teach a variation of Hapkido just like Mu Sool Kwan, Mu Ye Kwan, Chung Do Kwan and Yon Mu Kwan all teach variations. I hold that if a person wants to be included in this validation process that we accept that Lee and Suh trained with Choi and produced their own take on Hapkido with their modifications just as Ji did with HIS modifications. IMVVHO I think its just about time that we present practitioners stop being bound by the prejudices and stupidities of the previous generation. All their antics have done is divided the community and pit people at each others throats. We may never know what happened back in the 50-s and 60-s so I figure in time Life will take its course and then Gawd can sort it all out upstairs. In the meantime we run the risk of continuing to disenfranchize people because grown men chose to act like children. 

Between the two questions I think Mikes' thought is the more problematic. At least someone like Joo Bang Lee is a known quanity. I have no idea what we are going to do about people who trained with "Mr X" in the back of an Import-export office. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Black Belt FC

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Lugo,
> 
> You are right there in NYC - why not train with Dojunim Chang, Chin Il, Choi's appointed successor if it is authentic Hapkido rank you seek - well actually from your statement, you could care less about rank and more about training in "dark places" - whatever that nonsense is. Homemade martial arts may be pretty to look at, but they are generally under battle tested, and rely on slick looking photo-ops to capture new students.


I call Dojunim Chang and ask to train with him but he insisted that I wait for some new federation that he will create. He didn't sound convincing, he sounded more like don't call me I will maybe call you. So I just went over to see him in class see if he will allow me to train with him. Well I could clearly see that he was concerned that I was a local school owner and fear that I was there to past business cards, I wasnt. In all my 26 years of training I never was asked to leave the mat, that day I was but not for any misconduct on my part. Im done with this Dojunim, I do not need him or have a desire to be associated with him. If this is the best Hapkido has to offer, I fear for its future.





I in one point spoke to someone who was training with Ji at one time and asked him to give me details so that I can come over the bridge. He said, Ji doesnt want to take any new students who wasnt part of the original group. Eh? He gave me the impression that he was holding on to something so valued and wasnt willing to share it. So valuable in fact that it allow him to forgo time in grade, just a silly rule to some. 



As for my future training, Master Whalen has accepted my request to take me under his wing and help me continual my growth in Hapkido. I prefer to be train by him than any of the previously mentioned individuals, the man has integrity, honest and truly cares about the growth of Hapkido. 

My Hapkido is not homemade I trained several years with Master Danny who is certified and recognized by GM Jung Park, but some individuals who want to monopolies Hapkido its not enough; suit yourself. 



What I teach is unfortunately battle tested in fact one my students with just one year training fern off two attackers in less than twenty seconds, If ever in NYC your welcome to ask him personally. 



My Hapkido classes are packed to the point that if I didnt plan for my current school expansion due next week, students will start to complain. If you can do the same I salute you, if not your lacking something. 


Lugo


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Folks: 

I don't mean Paul any evil, but I am going to single him out because I think he may be VERY representative of a more common applicant. IMO we can argue and punish the older generatuion for acting like fools all we want but the people who get hurt are the current practitioners and THESE are the people we need to be speaking to. If folks want to continue to train with Lee and Suh and maintain that their art is NOT Hapkido thats fine. But for those people who have a change of view, or for people like you, Paul, there needs to be some sort of provision for authenticating what they do I think we need to re-evaluate what it is that we are working to do. 

Let me say again, if a person wishes to hold that they do not train in Hapkido and that KSW or HRD or ICHF are separate and distinct arts I have no problem. But for the person who wants to secure some sort of validation for where he has been in order to get where he wants to go I suggest that knowledgeable practitioners are duty-bound to help out. Hey, I have been with Myung since 1990. If I want to be a hard-a$$ I can tell Paul he is out of the club and let him go such air! I don't think that is what Hapkido is about and I KNOW thats not what the kwan I belong to is about! The trick is to do it intelligently and with fairness and I would like to hear peoples' thoughts on this.  Anyone? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ouch ouch ouch ouch
> 
> Good Lordy are we hitting the "soft spots, or what!?!
> 
> I want to start with Mike (Cuz you started this!!) and his question about non-aligned masters. Admittedly I took the safer route cuz I didn't want to open this can of worms. The fact is, though, that it needs to be addressed. There are a lot of people who are products of these little one-off "mom-&-pop" Hapkido classes. There are also a greater number of people who studied at TKD or TSD "who also teach Hapkido". Maybe they got rank and maybe they didn't. Working from a position of "inclusion" rather than "exclusion" how can be make a case for these people?
> 
> Then, spring-boarding off of the question about Joo Bang Lee we have the same question from another point of view. Everybody and the guy down the street knows that both In Hyuk Suh and Joo Bang Lee teach a variation of Hapkido just like Mu Sool Kwan, Mu Ye Kwan, Chung Do Kwan and Yon Mu Kwan all teach variations. I hold that if a person wants to be included in this validation process that we accept that Lee and Suh trained with Choi and produced their own take on Hapkido with their modifications just as Ji did with HIS modifications. IMVVHO I think its just about time that we present practitioners stop being bound by the prejudices and stupidities of the previous generation. All their antics have done is divided the community and pit people at each others throats. We may never know what happened back in the 50-s and 60-s so I figure in time Life will take its course and then Gawd can sort it all out upstairs. In the meantime we run the risk of continuing to disenfranchize people because grown men chose to act like children.
> 
> Between the two questions I think Mikes' thought is the more problematic. At least someone like Joo Bang Lee is a known quanity. I have no idea what we are going to do about people who trained with "Mr X" in the back of an Import-export office. Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce 

I like what you said polically but I think your a little off track, we or I'm not looking exclude but rather "include" people who really know Hapkido.

Master X who learned from Master X is the problem with Hapkido not the people who really learned the Art or can demonstrate skill. 

If someone is a Kuk Sool player and joins a Hapkido school there can't be that much trouble except changing thier curriculum around alittle. Right?


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

".......I like what you said polically but I think your a little off track, we or I'm not looking exclude but rather "include" people who really know Hapkido....." 

I'm not sure that I agree about being off-track and heres why I say that. 

In less than two pages of this thread we have had both Lugo and Paul share very real experiences with the Hapkido arts. In both cases decisions by identified leaders (in Lugos' case Chang and Ji; in Pauls' case his teacher--- and I think there was someone else who spoke to Joo Bang Lee and In Hyuk Suh) have impacted peoples Hapkido career.  Now, let me say again that if leaders want to act like "so&so-s" there isn't much we can do. But the students are the ones' who get hurt. Now, argueably Lugo "landed-on-his-feet" because he found Hal and will have all the validation and certification that he could possibly need through Hal and by extension, Hals' teacher. But what about Paul? if his teacher is no longer with Myung and had gone to Suh/Seo what then? And by extension what if in two years the teacher goes to Yang, Jwing-ming or Adam Hsu or the Gracie Bros--- what happens to Pauls martial arts career? See its OK if I as a teacher want to re-affiliate to other teachers but what happens to my students? See what I mean? These teachers don't act in a vacuum.  And I can tell you from personal experience that when I presented exactly this questions to certain VERY well-know individuals in the Hapkido community essentially I was told "hey, thats life!" What kind of response is THAT? I'm sorry to keep hammering on this but we need to take better care of our people than the folks who came before us. The question-- "HOW???" Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

I don't know how you want to do this but here is my contribution for what it is worth. 

My MA career spans from 1973 to present of which my Hapkido career is from 1985 to present. I, all four of my dan ranks, my schools and my students are certified through GM Kwang Sik Myung who was a student of both Han Jae Ji and later by Choi Yong Sul. The Yon Mu Kwan proceeds from GM Myungs' Hapkido experience and later evolved into what most people now know as the World Hapkido Federation. 

BTW: As just a kind of addendum: My sword training which is part and parcel of the Hapkido Mu-Do practiced by the Yon Mu Kwan is also represented as a separate art in its own right under the tutelage of KJN Hyi Koo of the HwaRang Kumdo and HwaRang Kum-Bup Assns. Currently they certify my 1st though 3rd Dan.FWIW. 

If you need anymore information let me know and I will pass it along. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> ".......I like what you said polically but I think your a little off track, we or I'm not looking exclude but rather "include" people who really know Hapkido....."
> 
> I'm not sure that I agree about being off-track and heres why I say that.
> 
> In less than two pages of this thread we have had both Lugo and Paul share very real experiences with the Hapkido arts. In both cases decisions by identified leaders (in Lugos' case Chang and Ji; in Pauls' case his teacher--- and I think there was someone else who spoke to Joo Bang Lee and In Hyuk Suh) have impacted peoples Hapkido career. Now, let me say again that if leaders want to act like "so&so-s" there isn't much we can do. But the students are the ones' who get hurt. Now, argueably Lugo "landed-on-his-feet" because he found Hal and will have all the validation and certification that he could possibly need through Hal and by extension, Hals' teacher. But what about Paul? if his teacher is no longer with Myung and had gone to Suh/Seo what then? And by extension what if in two years the teacher goes to Yang, Jwing-ming or Adam Hsu or the Gracie Bros--- what happens to Pauls martial arts career? See its OK if I as a teacher want to re-affiliate to other teachers but what happens to my students? See what I mean? These teachers don't act in a vacuum. And I can tell you from personal experience that when I presented exactly this questions to certain VERY well-know individuals in the Hapkido community essentially I was told "hey, thats life!" What kind of response is THAT? I'm sorry to keep hammering on this but we need to take better care of our people than the folks who came before us. The question-- "HOW???" Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce

Why don't they join a known hapkido association and straighten out thier problems I'm sure there skills will prove they know the material.

Yes this is the problem in Hapkido today and I personally would certify them if they were my students.

Lastly these are the reasons I was advocating a new Association that nobody liked on this board in order to seperate from these Korean charaters who screwed up the whole thing to begin with.

Everyone claims some wierd 2nd hand knowledge of Hapkido and wants real Hapkido rank for it, but as we see it really does'nt work that way 50 years later.


----------



## shesulsa

American HKD said:
			
		

> Bruce
> 
> Why don't they join a known hapkido association and straighten out thier problems I'm sure there skills will prove they know the material.
> 
> Yes this is the problem in Hapkido today and I personally would certify them if they were my students.
> 
> Lastly these are the reasons I was advocating a new Association that nobody liked on this board in order to seperate from these Korean charaters who screwed up the whole thing to begin with.
> 
> Everyone claims some wierd 2nd hand knowledge of Hapkido and wants real Hapkido rank for it, but as we see it really does'nt work that way 50 years later.


 
 Why we don't join a known hapkido association and straighten out problems is most likely because of something we call loyalty to our teachers.  And are we going to dissociate from the ones without whom we would have no knowledge of Hapkido whatsoever?

 May I also ask who wants rank in Hapkido for their 2nd hand knowledge?  I'm a little ignorant as to this, so please bear with me.


----------



## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> But what about Paul? if his teacher is no longer with Myung and had gone to Suh/Seo what then? And by extension what if in two years the teacher goes to Yang, Jwing-ming or Adam Hsu or the Gracie Bros--- what happens to Pauls martial arts career? See its OK if I as a teacher want to re-affiliate to other teachers but what happens to my students?




Hello all,

Well, umm, it seems really simple.   If someone's teacher joins another organization, and it is not in line with the students aspirations as a martial artist, they should vote with their feet and leave.  If you want to train in Hapkido, and are doing so, but for whatever reason, the instuctor aligns himself with a group that is not Hapkido, or is questionable, then the student should LEAVE.  We are not in the dark ages here when people swore allegance to death - if that were the case, the instructors wouldn't jump from place to place seeking rank or whatever it is...

If your looking for Hapkido, go to a Hapkido organization, where the top guys actually have Hapkido rank...


----------



## shesulsa

iron_ox said:
			
		

> If your looking for Hapkido, go to a Hapkido organization, where the top guys actually have Hapkido rank...


 Hi iron_ox:

 So let's say one does this very thing and upon reaching a higher color rank or even dan rank, the teacher has a falling out with said organization and leaves.  That teacher is no longer part of that organization but falls into that category some are calling "mom-and-pop hapkido."  So from your point of view, shall the student who originally sought out organized Hapkido and who learned and grew and changed from his and his teacher's efforts follow his teacher with the loyalty he recited many times in class or follow organized Hapkido?

 If he chooses the latter, has lineage not been broken?  Must he then re-align himself with another instructor from the orgnization his teacher left and be re-evaluated and re-certified?

 Does it matter to anybody else on this board that a student have loyalty to a style rather than a teacher or method?  Are we all comfortable with the forsaking of one's teacher should they misalign themselves from organized hapkido?


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Why we don't join a known hapkido association and straighten out problems is most likely because of something we call loyalty to our teachers. And are we going to dissociate from the ones without whom we would have no knowledge of Hapkido whatsoever?
> 
> May I also ask who wants rank in Hapkido for their 2nd hand knowledge? I'm a little ignorant as to this, so please bear with me.


Greetings,

People who learned Hapkido from unknown sources and really think they're learning Hapkido such as people who learn a few moves from a TKD master.

There are a many self ranking so called Hapkido stylists and associations with little to no connections to the Art.

Loyalty to your teacher is good and if you feel you're learning and you like him/her then stay there. 

If you want Legit rank that many so called teachers can't provide that's a seperate issue and you may have to go elsewhere if that's your case.


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Why we don't join a known hapkido association and straighten out problems is most likely because of something we call loyalty to our teachers.  And are we going to dissociate from the ones without whom we would have no knowledge of Hapkido whatsoever?
> 
> May I also ask who wants rank in Hapkido for their 2nd hand knowledge?  I'm a little ignorant as to this, so please bear with me.



Hello,

Again, maybe I missed the question, but as a practioner of HRD, you don't do Hapkido - despite Bruce's PC attempt to lump everything together - if DJN Lee wanted to be doing Hapkido, then he would call it Hapkido.  

Not every Karate group is Shotokan - they wanted to do a differnt thing, from a different perspective, so we have lots of Karate - not all Shotokan - same thing here - there are lots of KMA's - some better than others.  Some are TaeKwondo, some HRD, some KSW, and some Hapkido - all seperate, all with their own lineage and agenda.

What many are advocating - often becasue of lack of real Hapkido rank - is that the KMA'a are divided into two groups, Taekwondo and Hapkido - so by that broad brush stroke, if it is not ITF or WTF, then it is Hapkido (?), really?  Nonsense.  Stop calling these men foolish for doing their own thing - they aren't divided at all - they wanted to go it alone and have done so - and so be it, good luck to them and their students.  But to say not that THEY caused a divide, no, not al all.  They left to do their own thing - some better than others, the disservice comes when outsiders what to try and pidgeon hole them as something they do not want to be, or when they turn around after 30 years and try to stake a claim to a martial art that they left long ago.


----------



## shesulsa

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Again, maybe I missed the question, but as a practioner of HRD, you don't do Hapkido - despite Bruce's PC attempt to lump everything together - if DJN Lee wanted to be doing Hapkido, then he would call it Hapkido.


 Yes, you missed the question.  I know what I study and that it is not called Hapkido - did I make a reference that I did?



			
				iron_ox said:
			
		

> Not every Karate group is Shotokan - they wanted to do a differnt thing, from a different perspective, so we have lots of Karate - not all Shotokan - same thing here - there are lots of KMA's - some better than others. Some are TaeKwondo, some HRD, some KSW, and some Hapkido - all seperate, all with their own lineage and agenda.


 Again, thank you for retierating that there are different styles of martial arts.



			
				iron_ox said:
			
		

> What many are advocating - often becasue of lack of real Hapkido rank - is that the KMA'a are divided into two groups, Taekwondo and Hapkido - so by that broad brush stroke, if it is not ITF or WTF, then it is Hapkido (?), really? Nonsense. Stop calling these men foolish for doing their own thing - they aren't divided at all - they wanted to go it alone and have done so - and so be it, good luck to them and their students. But to say not that THEY caused a divide, no, not al all. They left to do their own thing - some better than others, the disservice comes when outsiders what to try and pidgeon hole them as something they do not want to be, or when they turn around after 30 years and try to stake a claim to a martial art that they left long ago.


 I don't see everyone clamoring after Hapkido rank in any way, really.  I see the efforts of recording a family tree, if you will.  Listing someone in a registry for a Hapkido rank s/he earned is one thing.  If that person splits off and starts his/her own style and does not call it Hapkido and his/her students are taught the style by the name he/she comes up with, they are not Hapkido in the sense they are not part of the organization and do not learn - ahem - *pure* Hapkido.  Nevertheless, anyone researching one of those new studen't lineage will see their teacher's name on their certification, then will research that teacher back to the Hapkido lineage no matter if there is a registry or not.

 I think if a Hapkidoin were to wish for all those who learned Hapkido to just vanish magically and deny any claims to Hapkido lineage, perhaps that individual should shun hapkido as well.  The age of art purity is over - we might as well get used to it.


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Hi iron_ox:
> 
> So let's say one does this very thing and upon reaching a higher color rank or even dan rank, the teacher has a falling out with said organization and leaves.  That teacher is no longer part of that organization but falls into that category some are calling "mom-and-pop hapkido."  So from your point of view, shall the student who originally sought out organized Hapkido and who learned and grew and changed from his and his teacher's efforts follow his teacher with the loyalty _he recited many times in class _ *(what do you mena by this?)* or follow organized Hapkido?
> 
> *This is a very broad  example, but I'll try.  I don't believe in the mom-and-pop analogy.  If the teacher has rank, then they should know enough to carry them to another authentic place to get rank.  If the teacher aligns himself with a group that does not have rank in Hapkido sufficient to suit the needs of the student, they should look elsewhere.  Teachers are not GODS - they may decide that the art they were originally doing is no longer for them - then the student should then decide if he joined a dojang for the art or the teacher (maybe a combo) - but to follow a teacher blindly is more like a cult than any true martial art I know.*
> 
> If he chooses the latter, has lineage not been broken?  Must he then re-align himself with another instructor from the orgnization his teacher left and be re-evaluated and re-certified?  *Sounds reasonable.  He can still claim his original rank in Hapkido, seems to me, if he chooses to stay that course.*
> 
> Does it matter to anybody else on this board that a student have loyalty to a style rather than a teacher or method?  Are we all comfortable with the forsaking of one's teacher should they misalign themselves from organized hapkido? *You just said a mouthful here - misaligned is a good word choice - if they misaligned, I hope students would leave.  We are martial artist, not surfs or monks - when the teacher screws up, hey hes human, if he decides to take his martial career down a different path than the one I signed up for, well see ya later*.



Using words like "forsaking" deeply trouble me.  Learning a martial art can create and should create strong bonds between teachers and students - but that comes with the realization that as humans we make mistakes - I am always troubled when a martial arts instructor is giving "life advice" to students - sorry, but in 25+ years in Hapkido, I never attended such a class.  Students should be loyal to a style and teacher because the teacher bonds himself through his words and actions, not some hokey chant in class or a daily promise to wash behind both ears and bow deeply to the south 10 times a day.

If an instructor attracts students with the promise of learning Hapkido, then he should honor that and be aligned with a Hapkido organization that is legit.  Or, his/her students have an obligation to themselves to walk away.


----------



## Disco

As Bruce has stated, my question seems more problematic. In actuality, a big void is being constructed. It's been mandated that lineage must be directly flowed to either Choi or Ji. There are way to many old school instructors (Korean I may add), that have for whatever reason, derailed that track leading back. You can have 2nd and 3rd generation students from these people, that only belong to either that persons school or organization that they started. Now I know I will alienate those of you who feel hardened ties to so-called correct / authentic hapkido with this next statement.....But here goes anyway. The base root of any martial art style being undertaken is nothing more than a collective number of specific techniques that the originator saw fit to put together. Choi did'nt start teaching what he had "learned and refitted", with the intent of being a secular figure head. He taught people to hurt other people, plain and simple. What seperates the different factions within a particular style is their approach (physical and mental) to what has already been taught and variations will always be a partner with this. Choi did this. Ji did this. How many kwans are out there? They all don't teach the exact same way, otherwise there would be no need for the multi factions. So now to tie this back to Choi. Does the 2nd/3rd generation Korean Instructor teach what Choi taught, step for step, thought for thought? Of course not. So why the big mandate that someone HAS to be directly linked to Choi or Ji. To add to this, hasen't it been said that Ji directs his people to leave and do there own thing? What is the value of being linked to someone, when in essence, your doing something akin - but different, than what that person has done or is doing. 

You can continue to set up your Hapkido Standards, but in all honesty, just who's standards are being implemented? 

To all, I take this time to wish everyone;
A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Yes, you missed the question.  I know what I study and that it is not called Hapkido - did I make a reference that I did?
> 
> * No, I've read lots of you other posts, sorry, I should have mentioned that.*
> 
> Again, thank you for retierating that there are different styles of martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see everyone clamoring after Hapkido rank in any way, really.
> 
> *Agreed.*
> 
> I see the efforts of recording a family tree, if you will.  Listing someone in a registry for a Hapkido rank s/he earned is one thing.  If that person splits off and starts his/her own style and does not call it Hapkido and his/her students are taught the style by the name he/she comes up with, they are not Hapkido in the sense they are not part of the organization and do not learn - ahem - *pure* Hapkido.
> 
> *Here is the question, to me, when, for example, DJN Lee created KSW, he left the Hapkido name and philosophy behind forever - by his choice - so it is not Hapkido at all.  This is the point - Hapkido is not a collection of techniques - but a part of the continuing Choi/Ji line.*
> 
> Nevertheless, anyone researching one of those new studen't lineage will see their teacher's name on their certification, then will research that teacher back to the Hapkido lineage no matter if there is a registry or not.
> 
> *If that teacher actually has rank from the Choi/Ji lineage.*
> 
> I think if a Hapkidoin were to wish for all those who learned Hapkido to just vanish magically and deny any claims to Hapkido lineage, perhaps that individual should shun hapkido as well.  The age of art purity is over - we might as well get used to it.



The age of "purity" as you put it has only just started - as the original roots of Hapkido finally realize that the art will die if every wannabe and break away suddenly decides that Hapkido is "now" for them and Hapkido ends up as a melting pot of sloppy credentials and "adjusted" history and lineage.


----------



## iron_ox

Disco said:
			
		

> As Bruce has stated, my question seems more problematic. In actuality, a big void is being constructed. It's been mandated that lineage must be directly flowed to either Choi or Ji. There are way to many old school instructors (Korean I may add), that have for whatever reason, derailed that track leading back. You can have 2nd and 3rd generation students from these people, that only belong to either that persons school or organization that they started. Now I know I will alienate those of you who feel hardened ties to so-called correct / authentic hapkido with this next statement.....But here goes anyway. The base root of any martial art style being undertaken is nothing more than a collective number of specific techniques that the originator saw fit to put together. Choi did'nt start teaching what he had "learned and refitted", with the intent of being a secular figure head. He taught people to hurt other people, plain and simple. What seperates the different factions within a particular style is their approach (physical and mental) to what has already been taught and variations will always be a partner with this. Choi did this. Ji did this. How many kwans are out there? They all don't teach the exact same way, otherwise there would be no need for the multi factions. So now to tie this back to Choi. Does the 2nd/3rd generation Korean Instructor teach what Choi taught, step for step, thought for thought? Of course not. So why the big mandate that someone HAS to be directly linked to Choi or Ji. To add to this, hasen't it been said that Ji directs his people to leave and do there own thing? What is the value of being linked to someone, when in essence, your doing something akin - but different, than what that person has done or is doing.
> 
> You can continue to set up your Hapkido Standards, but in all honesty, just who's standards are being implemented?
> 
> To all, I take this time to wish everyone;
> A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR




Hello Mike,

I actually agree with most of what you've said - the issue for me, and the reason I am in favor of such a list is two fold:  1) To identify authentic students/teachers of the Choi/Ji line - including rank and training time if at all possible.  2) By doing so, to set parameters by which Hapkido is measured so that someone with a 1st dan in Judo, and a 2nd dan in Taekwondo doesn't suddenly think becasue he teaches some circulur wrist locks that he is a third dan Hapkido.

As a tertiary effect, I believe that such a list will finally seperate Hapkido from all the other KMA's out there - to their utter joy, I would imagine.  Many who did some Hapkido went on to add lots of other stuff and call it a differnt name and create an entirely new thing...and then completelyt disavow Hapkido, Choi/Ji and everything else - awesome - now this list could provide them yet another avenue to go their own way.


----------



## shesulsa

iron_ox said:
			
		

> As a tertiary effect, I believe that such a list will finally seperate Hapkido from all the other KMA's out there - to their utter joy, I would imagine.


 Isn't it already separate?



			
				iron_ox said:
			
		

> Many who did some Hapkido went on to add lots of other stuff and call it a differnt name and create an entirely new thing...and then completelyt disavow Hapkido, Choi/Ji and everything else - awesome - now this list could provide them yet another avenue to go their own way.


 Hypotheically:  If I go on to create another martial art based on what I know from my current style and what I develop on my own through tutelage in other arts, does that not make me still a rank in the art I originally studied AND a rank in the style I develop?

 Goodness, it almost seems to me that we are going to need a Korean Martial Arts Divorce Record outlining all who have began with Hapkido, developed their own art from their culmination of knowledge and no longer call what they teach Hapkido ... or Hwa Rang Do (c) ... or Kuk Sul ... or whatever.

 I think that list would be the longer one.

 Note:  Hwa Rang Do (c) is a copyright of the World Hwa Rang Do Association and DJN Joo Bang Lee and I am not affiliated with his organization.


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Hypotheically:  If I go on to create another martial art based on what I know from my current style and what I develop on my own through tutelage in other arts, does that not make me still a rank in the art I originally studied AND a rank in the style I develop?
> 
> *Absolutely, your rank and knowledge obviously stay with you - my argument is with groups that go their seperate way - then for whatever reason suddenly pop up and want to be Hapkido again - some 20+ years after they buy lots of magazine ad space to tell us who they are and they are not Hapkido.
> *
> 
> Note:  Hwa Rang Do (c) is a copyright of the World Hwa Rang Do Association and DJN Joo Bang Lee and I am not affiliated with his organization. *Thanks for that, was unsure if you were affiliated or not*.



Clearly, you would keep previous rank, but the issue is also more of what and how you want to be classified - if you choose not to be called Hapkido, who am I or anyone else to say that "the techniques look the same" - so you must be part of Hapkido.  I say, be free to call whatever you do, whatever you want - just not Hapkido if you don't have the roots.


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Isn't it already separate?
> 
> 
> Hypotheically: If I go on to create another martial art based on what I know from my current style and what I develop on my own through tutelage in other arts, does that not make me still a rank in the art I originally studied AND a rank in the style I develop?
> 
> Goodness, it almost seems to me that we are going to need a Korean Martial Arts Divorce Record outlining all who have began with Hapkido, developed their own art from their culmination of knowledge and no longer call what they teach Hapkido ... or Hwa Rang Do (c) ... or Kuk Sul ... or whatever.
> 
> I think that list would be the longer one.
> 
> Note: Hwa Rang Do (c) is a copyright of the World Hwa Rang Do Association and DJN Joo Bang Lee and I am not affiliated with his organization.


 
Greetings,

If I make my own system from my knowledge of an Art that I have a low dan rank in. then go on to rank my students in my system in which I'm a self proclaimed Grand Master in for the next 30-40 years. Then turn around and start to rank people in my first Art which I never mastered or got pass a 1st or 2nd Dan. Doesn't that sound crazy to you It does to me? 

Unless thats the norm which it apprently it was in Korea during the 50s &60s with arts steming from Choi Young Sul. TKD is no different it's a direct rip off Shotokan. What Shotokan Master promoted General Choi to Master in Shotokan before he started TKD?

Thats the problem with Korean Arts and all the baloney that went on there in the 50s and 60s as they tried to establish themselves in Martial Arts when the country had little of thier own heritage to show in that department.

What Choi taught was directly from Japan with no Korean connection. Choi was one of the few real MA Masters in Korea after WWII with anything worth while teaching.

That's another main reason Hapkido people are proud of the direct lineage to Choi and not the rip off systems.


----------



## shesulsa

American HKD said:
			
		

> If I make my own system from my knowledge of an Art that I have a low dan rank in. then go on to rank my students in my system in which I'm a self proclaimed Grand Master in for the next 30-40 years. Then turn around and start to rank people in my first Art which I never mastered or got pass a 1st or 2nd Dan. Doesn't that sound crazy to you It does to me?


 Who does this?


----------



## kwanjang

Kevin writes: "World Kido was set up by the Suh/Seo brothers to give credibility to KSW."

GM Seo was Chairman of the KOREA KIDO Association for nearly twenty years.  During this time this association grew immensely and expanded to include the World Kido Federation (which was set up by GM Seo as a separate entity around 1989 when I was asked to represent Canada).  

FWIW, Kuk Sool Won did not need credibility from Kido, as they were doing quite well all by themselves long before the World Kido Federation was established; in fact, WKSA prefers to be recognized on its own terms (just as you have said all along).  

The Korea Kido Association was/and still IS regarded by a great many Korean Hap Ki Do people as the first Hap Ki Do organization.  The first chairman was GM Choi himself, and after a number of other elected successors, GM Seo was elected Chairman in 1983.  It should be noted that GM Choi was still alive during the time when GM Seo was elected to Chairman of the Korea Kido Hae, and for all anyone knows he (GM Choi) was part of the voting process.  

Like GM Choi, GM Suh was past chairman of Korea Kido Hae, and his brother, GM Seo, was elected as Chairman after GM Suh resigned and moved to the US.  A few years ago, Master Kim took over the Korea Kido Hae, and GM Seo continues to run the World Kido Federation which he created while Chairman of Korea Kido Hae.  The two organizations now have no connection with one another other than having been run by the same person, GM Seo,  for a long time.

Regardless of what his brother says or does, GM Seo NEVER quit teaching what he (and many other so called "legitimate" Hap Ki Do people in Korea) considers to be Hap Ki Do.   Many of these legitimate Hapkidoin actually voted GM Seo into the earliest Hap Ki Do organizations, and he worked his butt of for nearly twenty years to promote Hap Ki Do in the Korea Kido Association.  

Furthermore, GM Seo received his black belt from GM Choi. Who on this forum can say the same thing, and YOU folks are telling us that GM Seo is not Hap Ki Do??? All you can say is that you got your degree from someone who claims to have received it from GM Choi.  

To say GM Seo is NOT Hap Ki Do is to say that GM Kimm He Young is not Hap Ki Do.  If he is NOT Hap Ki Do by your standards, why is it that most Hap Ki Do people refer to his tome as the Bible of Hap Ki Do???  Ill bet that a copy of his book is on your bookshelf... blasphemy!

What makes you folks the authority on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do????   You cant even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them.  I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the keepers of the art.  What is that I read a few posts ago...  Harmony and Unity????


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Kevin: 

Despite my "PC" approach (  ) I very much agree with what you are doing and saying. If I am at all in touch with what I suspect, where I am having problems is in the very place I would expect you, and Stuart and anyone else to have problems. It is very hard work dealing with all of these affiliation issues. We have people who make things up. We have people who have learned from people who make things up. We have people who have mixed made-up things with real things and there are people who have legit material and connections. 

Now if I am understanding this new approach that I am reading about, a person would need to identify that they are, in fact learning Hapkido. I know we have some differences of opinion about what it is, but in the main I think that if a person could make an arguement for being able to trace their rank back through affiliations to, say, Choi, then this would be half the battle right there. Right so far? 

Ok. If I have THAT part right the next step would currency or timeliness. In otherwords if a person can trace their lineage back to Choi it would have to be at the highest level attained. By this I mean that a person whose teacher, checks out of his organization and goes off to teach another art or stops teaching, when a student is, say, 3rd guep, would have to pick-up their lineage at that 3rd guep, unless they could connect with a comparbly qualified teacher, right? I mean you just can't keep on training and expect people to accept that one has promoted themselves along, right?  

Now, if I have THAT part right, there is 
a.) still the matter of a person who trains through someone like Lee (arguably connectd to Choi)

b.) still the matter of someone who trains under a nobody only thinly related to Choi. 

Whatcha think? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Who does this?


I don't know who does it, I thought you were making that analogy so I expanded on it a bit.


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Who does this?




Seo, In Sun for one.


----------



## glad2bhere

".....What makes you folks the authority on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? You cant even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them. I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the keepers of the art. What is that I read a few posts ago... Harmony and Unity????...." 

Sorry, Rudy, but this is probably the first place you and I have come to a difference of opinion. 

I know that on these discussion nets we toss a lot of things around, but the fact of the matter is that we are working on things that the great names that we are throwing around should have been working on a long time ago. Lee should have come clean about the HwaRangDo organization many years ago. And all of these people like Ji and Suh and Lee should have been more honest about what happened and why back when they were treating people like coolies. I have no crystal ball to know where all of this will come out. All I know is that I don't want to see myself, Stuart, you, Kevin etc ect ect repeat the same crap that was dumped on us when we were gueppies. Most of us know what a load of S*** we have from the past, and our only choice is not to repeat that. What I hear people hammering out is the work necessary to accomplish that. 

Right now the single small piece that I am advocating for out of this entire mass is the idea of "inclusion" over "exclusion". I would rather take a questionable but highly motivated student and help him autheticate himself, than deal with an authentic student who is quite sure that his lineage guarentees that noone can teach him anything. We have a series of at least 10 major organizations which can and do exclude people for various reasons of authentification. We have people deperate enough to learn that they use mail-order to try and get it done. And we have people who are well-disposed towards culling-out anyone they view as "un-worthy". My point is that we are required to help the people who are disadvantaged to make their way. Lifes tough enough--- we don't have to make it tougher, yes?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Kevin writes: "World Kido was set up by the Suh/Seo brothers to give credibility to KSW."
> 
> GM Seo was Chairman of the KOREA KIDO Association for nearly twenty years. During this time this association grew immensely and expanded to include the World Kido Federation (which was set up by GM Seo as a separate entity around 1989 when I was asked to represent Canada).
> 
> FWIW, Kuk Sool Won did not need credibility from Kido, as they were doing quite well all by themselves long before the World Kido Federation was established; in fact, WKSA prefers to be recognized on its own terms (just as you have said all along).
> 
> The Korea Kido Association was/and still IS regarded by a great many Korean Hap Ki Do people as the first Hap Ki Do organization. The first chairman was GM Choi himself, and after a number of other elected successors, GM Seo was elected Chairman in 1983. It should be noted that GM Choi was still alive during the time when GM Seo was elected to Chairman of the Korea Kido Hae, and for all anyone knows he (GM Choi) was part of the voting process.
> 
> Like GM Choi, GM Suh was past chairman of Korea Kido Hae, and his brother, GM Seo, was elected as Chairman after GM Suh resigned and moved to the US. A few years ago, Master Kim took over the Korea Kido Hae, and GM Seo continues to run the World Kido Federation which he created while Chairman of Korea Kido Hae. The two organizations now have no connection with one another other than having been run by the same person, GM Seo, for a long time.
> 
> Regardless of what his brother says or does, GM Seo NEVER quit teaching what he (and many other so called "legitimate" Hap Ki Do people in Korea) considers to be Hap Ki Do. Many of these legitimate Hapkidoin actually voted GM Seo into the earliest Hap Ki Do organizations, and he worked his butt of for nearly twenty years to promote Hap Ki Do in the Korea Kido Association.
> 
> Furthermore, GM Seo received his black belt from GM Choi. Who on this forum can say the same thing, and YOU folks are telling us that GM Seo is not Hap Ki Do??? All you can say is that you got your degree from someone who claims to have received it from GM Choi.
> 
> To say GM Seo is NOT Hap Ki Do is to say that GM Kimm He Young is not Hap Ki Do. If he is NOT Hap Ki Do by your standards, why is it that most Hap Ki Do people refer to his tome as the Bible of Hap Ki Do??? Ill bet that a copy of his book is on your bookshelf... blasphemy!
> 
> What makes you folks the authority on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? You cant even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them. I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the keepers of the art. What is that I read a few posts ago... Harmony and Unity????


Dear Rudy,

Since I don't know the details about Master Seo please answer this is he a Hapkido stylist or Kuk Sool or Both? If both where did he get his Hapkido rank from and who taught him through the ranks to Master? *Nevermind I looked it up and he's a 3rd dan in Hapkido the rest of his carrer is Kuk Sool.*

Also I think people were trying to say a 1st dan from anybody isn't that impressive and if you moved on to another Art for the rest of your life why should people recognize you has a Hapkido Master with Hapkido linieage?
Kuk Sool Ok but why Hapkido.

Also to me being an administrator alone in an Association without training in the art is not qualifcations for lineage IMHO. School principles don't usually have degrees in all of the subjects taught in thier school. I know the Kido Hae says it over sees 30 arts or so.


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ".....What makes you folks the authority on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? You cant even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them. I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the keepers of the art. What is that I read a few posts ago... Harmony and Unity????...."
> 
> Sorry, Rudy, but this is probably the first place you and I have come to a difference of opinion.
> 
> I know that on these discussion nets we toss a lot of things around, but the fact of the matter is that we are working on things that the great names that we are throwing around should have been working on a long time ago. Lee should have come clean about the HwaRangDo organization many years ago. And all of these people like Ji and Suh and Lee should have been more honest about what happened and why back when they were treating people like coolies. I have no crystal ball to know where all of this will come out. All I know is that I don't want to see myself, Stuart, you, Kevin etc ect ect repeat the same crap that was dumped on us when we were gueppies. Most of us know what a load of S*** we have from the past, and our only choice is not to repeat that. What I hear people hammering out is the work necessary to accomplish that.
> 
> Right now the single small piece that I am advocating for out of this entire mass is the idea of "inclusion" over "exclusion". I would rather take a questionable but highly motivated student and help him autheticate himself, than deal with an authentic student who is quite sure that his lineage guarentees that noone can teach him anything. We have a series of at least 10 major organizations which can and do exclude people for various reasons of authentification. We have people deperate enough to learn that they use mail-order to try and get it done. And we have people who are well-disposed towards culling-out anyone they view as "un-worthy". My point is that we are required to help the people who are disadvantaged to make their way. Lifes tough enough--- we don't have to make it tougher, yes? FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce

RIGHT ON BROTHER!


----------



## iron_ox

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Kevin writes: "World Kido was set up by the Suh/Seo brothers to give credibility to KSW."
> 
> GM Seo was Chairman of the KOREA KIDO Association for nearly twenty years.  During this time this association grew immensely and expanded to include the World Kido Federation (which was set up by GM Seo as a separate entity around 1989 when I was asked to represent Canada).
> 
> FWIW, Kuk Sool Won did not need credibility from Kido, as they were doing quite well all by themselves long before the World Kido Federation was established; in fact, WKSA prefers to be recognized on its own terms (just as you have said all along).
> 
> The Korea Kido Association was/and still IS regarded by a great many Korean Hap Ki Do people as the first Hap Ki Do organization.  The first chairman was GM Choi himself, and after a number of other elected successors, GM Seo was elected Chairman in 1983.  It should be noted that GM Choi was still alive during the time when GM Seo was elected to Chairman of the Korea Kido Hae, and for all anyone knows he (GM Choi) was part of the voting process.
> 
> *Hardly, the Kido Hae that the Suh/Seo brothers was a branch office of the original founded by Choi with Ji.  The original organization continued to be run by eventually by Choi's son, Choi, Byung Il.*
> 
> 
> Regardless of what his brother says or does, GM Seo NEVER quit teaching what he (and many other so called "legitimate" Hap Ki Do people in Korea) considers to be Hap Ki Do.
> *Right, then why did he get all but a first dan in Hapkido, and the rest of his grades from his brother? *
> 
> Many of these legitimate Hapkidoin actually voted GM Seo into the earliest Hap Ki Do organizations, and he worked his butt of for nearly twenty years to promote Hap Ki Do in the Korea Kido Association.
> *Which would explian why for 20+ years he taught only "Kuk Sool Won" seminars in connection with their Kido Hae.  *
> Furthermore, GM Seo received his black belt from GM Choi. Who on this forum can say the same thing, and YOU folks are telling us that GM Seo is not Hap Ki Do???
> *No, what we are saying is that he got a fist dan in Hapkido from Choi, and a 4th - ? from his brother in Kuk Sool Won - which they collectively touted for two decades was not Hapkido.  They even added Kuk Sool Won to the list of "31" traditional styles of martial arts governed by the Kido Hae". Seo is KSW, which according to him and his brother is an ancient art not related to Hapkido - this is their history - the history of the organization to which you belong - can you not accept the words of your teacher?*
> 
> All you can say is that you got your degree from someone who claims to have received it from GM Choi.  *Well, for my part, I train with a man who is only one of three to receive a ninth dan from Choi.*
> 
> To say GM Seo is NOT Hap Ki Do is to say that GM Kimm He Young is not Hap Ki Do.  If he is NOT Hap Ki Do by your standards, why is it that most Hap Ki Do people refer to his tome as the Bible of Hap Ki Do???
> *Dead wrong - his advertisments refer to it as the "Bible" of Hapkido - not "most Hapkido people".*
> 
> Ill bet that a copy of his book is on your bookshelf... blasphemy! * Again, speaking only for me, I don't and wouldn't - he's not Hapkido - he's Hanmudo or something right? So why would I want his book?*
> 
> What makes you folks the authority on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? *No one said we were, but why do YOU keep referring to an organization run by a KSW master as a Hapkido one when KSW itself says it is not Hapkido?  *
> You cant even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them.  I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the keepers of the art.
> 
> *Frankly, you do this all the time...who said anything about "keepers" - but now that you mention it some of us come from legitimate Hapkido backgrounds and are amazed that groups want to call themselves Hapkido after, what for some, is 20 years of saying they are not - even more amazing is the westerners that cannot accept that their instructors do/didn't want to be recognized as Hapkido and went their own way - but the westerners want it both ways.  I may not be a "keeper" of the Choi lineage - but I am a staunch guardian. *
> 
> What is that I read a few posts ago...  Harmony and Unity???? *Great, harmony and unity, but without proper lineage and rank, not Hapkido*.



Hello all,
This goes back to how ANY instructors align themselves and what ANY student does to agree or not with this alignment.  If you spend decades defending a phony history, created to fool westernes into following a self-made grandmaster, while denying any link to Hapkido, why would anyone, or frankly why should anyone believe the "we were just foolin', cause we've been Hapkido all along, see, just ignore the man behind the curtain". Right.


----------



## American HKD

*Profile of the Grand Master In Sun Seo*



    Grandmaster In Sun Seo has been involved in martial arts since the 1950's and is currently one of the most respected Korean martial artist and a true pioneer representing the first generation of Korean martial artists. 

    Grandmaster Seo is the only first generation martial artist to teach and operate a dojang in Korea continuously for the last 40 years. He is the epitome of a true martial artist who combines his technical skills with great wisdom to tirelessly serve the growing martial arts community of Korea as well as the rest of the world. *Grandmaster's Profile:*

<LI>1958 Receives 1st Dan in Hapkido(From Teacher Choi Yong Sul) 
<LI>1961 3rd Dan in Hapkido 
<LI>1965 Korea Kuk Sool Won Instructor 
<LI>1966 Korea Kuk Sool Won's Pusan Area Master 
<LI>1967 Korea KIDO Association Representative 
<LI>1968 First in Korea to demonstrate with "Jin Gum"("real" or "actual" sword) 
<LI>1969 Korea Kuk Sool Won Chiefmaster 
<LI>1970 Appointed Pusan Central Police Force's Martial Arts Instructor (First in Korea to be appointed such) 
<LI>1974 First Martial Artist to appear and demonstrate on Korean TV show "Moe Ki Da Hang Jin"(Talent Show) 
<LI>1974-Present Hosted two Martial Arts Championship-Exhibitions each year. GM has held the most martial arts events in Korea. 
<LI>1975 First Martial Artist on KBS TV "Bi Mir Ea Moon"(Secret Door) 
<LI>1976 First Martial Artist on TBC TV "Game Show" 
<LI>1977 Selected as the Martial Arts Director/Participant for Government funded Documentary on Korean Martial Arts "Ho Kuk Moo Yea"(Fifty of GM's students also appeared on the documentary). 
<LI>1978 Selected to head a Martial Arts Team to represent Korea at the 75th Anniversary of Korean Immigration to Hawaii. First ever to be appointed martial arts team leader in an official government sponsored trip. 
<LI>1978 Appointed as Martial Arts Instructor for CIC (Korea's equivalent of CIA) 
<LI>1978 Published the official textbook for Korea Kuk Sool Won 
<LI>1983 Elected President of Korea KIDO Association (first martial artist to serve as president) and has been serving for the longest duration in history. 
<LI>1983 Published the 2nd Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook 
<LI>1984-2001 Korea President's Secret Service Agency's Testing Committee Head 
<LI>1986 Published the 3rd Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook 
<LI>1986 Established KIDO HQ in USA 
<LI>1989 Published the 4th Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook 
<LI>1990 World KIDO Federation established in Fremont, CA 
<LI>1992 Published the 5th Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook 
<LI>1996 Published the 6th Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook 
<LI>1998 Published the 1st Edition of KIDO Textbook/Album 
<LI>1983-2002 President Chairman of Korea Kido Association 
<LI>1990-Present GM has given over 200 martial arts seminars throughout the world and has received numerous commendations and awards from different cities he has visited. 
<LI>2003 Founded Han Min Jok Hapkido Association receives Korean government recognition for the new organization. As of present time, Grandmaster In Sun Seo has certified 270,000 Black Belts and he serves as President/Chairman of World KIDO Federation, Han Min Jok Hapkido Association and Korea Kuk Sool Association. GM Seo continues to travel the world to teach and share his martial arts knowledge and skills. ​*It seems that all Master Seo's work and promotion has been in Kuk Sool not Hapkido, but at least he gives credit to Choi Yong Sool unlike JBL. *​​​


----------



## shesulsa

American HKD said:
			
		

> *...but at least he gives credit to Choi Yong Sool unlike JBL. *


 On what do you base this statement?  Could you cite your source, please?


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> On what do you base this statement? Could you cite your source, please?


read the bio 1st line

1958 Receives 1st Dan in Hapkido(From Teacher Choi Yong Sul)


----------



## shesulsa

LOL - we clearly have a failure to communicate!

 You said JBL does not claim lineage to Choi - on what do you base THAT statement?

 thanks


----------



## shesulsa

American HKD said:
			
		

> *... gives credit to Choi Yong Sool unlike JBL. *


  This part of the last sentence of your post infers JBL does not give credit to Choi Yong Sool.

  I refer you to this page, 20th paragraph which begins_ "The National Unified Korean Martial Arts Exposition was held on May 27, 1968..."_ and ends _"At this time, Grandmaster Choi also conferred to our founder Dr. Joo-Bang Lee and Han-Jae Ji the rank of 8th Dan Degree Black Belt Grandmaster, the highest position in Hapkido in 1968."

_I have also seen the credit listed in his textbook for HRD students.

 I must also say, however, that on the same page, further down, he does claim to have released his ties with Hapkido.


----------



## American HKD

1


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> This part of the last sentence of your post infers JBL does not give credit to Choi Yong Sool.
> 
> I refer you to this page, 20th paragraph which begins_ "The National Unified Korean Martial Arts Exposition was held on May 27, 1968..."_ and ends _"At this time, Grandmaster Choi also conferred to our founder Dr. Joo-Bang Lee and Han-Jae Ji the rank of 8th Dan Degree Black Belt Grandmaster, the highest position in Hapkido in 1968."_
> 
> I have also seen the credit listed in his textbook for HRD students.
> 
> I must also say, however, that on the same page, further down, he does claim to have released his ties with Hapkido.


JBL recieved the 8th for unification purposes (political reasons) he admits. What accounts of him training with Choi are there I don't know of any.

Does he have a 1st through 7th Dan in HKD from Choi or Ji or anybody he only claims Suham Dosa taught him and his brother ALL THERE SKILLS not Choi (see the same article near the top ) Fact or Fiction?

During their mountain training with Suahm Dosa, Dr. Joo-Bang Lee and his brother did not learn from a Belt by Belt syllabus. They were taught all the skills of the combat system without any ranking system. So our Founder created and divided all of the skills that he had learned, into his Hwarang Do® syllabus for the public. So this martial art name Hwa Rang Do® contains his ancient Hwarang combat skills and his human morality philosophies.


----------



## glad2bhere

You know, I really can't believe you folks are taking this posture. 

What is it that you are doing in 2004 that the people you are identifying didn't do back in '94, '84, '74 and '64. Am I to understand that YOUR views are somehow more "pure", of greater nobility or of loftier intent? And just where has Hapkido benefitted from all of this " us and them" attitude in the Hapkido arts? Its gone on for 50 years now, folks. Tell me where we are any better now than before?  Tell how what you are offering is any better than what was offered before-- just by different people? If you would just take a page from any other effort that seeks to elevate one group of people above another, or divide some folks from other folks you would see that what you are doing is going to fail just like every other effort along these lines has failed. 

Earlier I mentioned that maybe we all share a commonality in Yong Sul Choi but apparently nobody wants to hear that because noone picked-up on it. Earlier yet I mentioned that we all share a source in Korean martial traditions and I guess nobody wants to run with that either. Before that I sought to have people help me identify what techniques and theories we share and that effort is turning cold. Maybe someone can educate an old man regarding what the vested interest is in keeping the Hapkido arts split-up and fighting among themselves? I would really like one of you "Champions of Hapkido Purity" to come out of the closet and fess-up to what the motives are for trying to make Hapkido some sort of elite or exclusive group. Maybe someone can tell me--- Whats the pay-off?  How about it? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

I really wish you would stop this. You have been around the KMA long enough to know that with a bit of digging you can cast aspersions  on ANYONES' background. OK--- so from one point of view Mr XYZ has some rank he doesn't merit. So what? I remember JR West commenting on how he got his upper dan ranks, but of course the difference was that he has always kept such things well in perspective.  And what about Mr. ABC and comparing his rank to Mr XYZ and finding one of the two falling short--- depending on how you view things. And shall we start now to talk about who is MORE closely relatesd to the Choi tradition? You KNOW thats what is going to come next. I KNOW you do. It NEVER stops with just comparisons. Someone ALWAYS has to be on top and someone on the bottom and NOONE ever wants to be on the bottom. I would bet dollars against domuts that this is the sort of thing that keeps people from working together in the first place. Nobody I know wants to get involved in this sort of thing. 

Now you originally said you wanted to start some sort of registry. Do you really think people are going to participate when they see how you are dealing with things solely in the abstract? Who wants to trust a person with such judgemental predispositions with valuable personal information, especially if they can fairly expect to be judged and found lacking. Don't tell me you haven't thought of this--- or have you? FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## iron_ox

Hello all,

So, the story so far is that Lee, Joo Bang claims he founded the name Hapkido, and that Choi gave him and 8th dan in 1968 - despite the fact that he was a practitioner of another art taught by the enigmatic Sauhm Dosa (an awesome art that was ONLY taught to Lee and his borther) - 

Then, after all the "struggle" to develop Hapkido he just decides to go visit the mystery monk and gets permission to teach Hwa rang do - although from that article, he was already doing it without such permission.

So, Lee quits Hapkido for good, saying the quality is bad and (continues) teaches HRD.

1) I haven't met anyone that was in Korea in 1968 that remembers these events - including then students of Choi.

2) Choi's activity was ALWAYS centered around Taegu - not Seoul - 

3) Very few 8th dans were ever conferred by Choi, I have only ever heard of 2 that can be verified with paper - there are undoubtedly more, but 8th dan was a rare duck for Choi to promote to - much more frequently, 3rd or 6th.

4) Lee claims to release this information for everyone to know "the truth" - well if the art he is teaching is some super old Korean are that only he knows, why does he even care about Hapkido?  Why accept rank from such a common art when he has the well spring of Sauhm Dosa at his EXCLUSIVE disposal?

Frankly, I was waiting to turn the page to see if he also founded Taekwondo and the cure for the common cold.  My advise to anyone reading that page is not to do it while drinking, the outburst of fluid from laughing might screw up your keyboard.


----------



## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> . Maybe someone can educate an old man regarding what the vested interest is in keeping the Hapkido arts split-up and fighting among themselves?



What Hapkido arts? We are talking about the Choi/Ji lineage-just Hapkido - those who are not of that ilk can go on with their own business - why do you keep trying to include those not interested in this process - e.g. KSW and HRD to name just two.?



> I would really like one of you "Champions of Hapkido Purity" to come out of the closet and fess-up to what the motives are for trying to make Hapkido some sort of elite or exclusive group. Maybe someone can tell me--- Whats the pay-off?  How about it?



Who said anything about being exclusive - why is it so bad to just let go?  We are now letting go, of all those that want to go their own way - they can have their own fun and train in whatever they want.  Stop playing the PC game, climb down off the fence and see that all these groups want to go off on their own - so let them. And as for the groups that want to use the name Hapkido, cool, as long as they have the validity to back it up...


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> I really wish you would stop this. You have been around the KMA long enough to know that with a bit of digging you can cast aspersions on ANYONES' background. OK--- so from one point of view Mr XYZ has some rank he doesn't merit. So what? I remember JR West commenting on how he got his upper dan ranks, but of course the difference was that he has always kept such things well in perspective. And what about Mr. ABC and comparing his rank to Mr XYZ and finding one of the two falling short--- depending on how you view things. And shall we start now to talk about who is MORE closely relatesd to the Choi tradition? You KNOW thats what is going to come next. I KNOW you do. It NEVER stops with just comparisons. Someone ALWAYS has to be on top and someone on the bottom and NOONE ever wants to be on the bottom. I would bet dollars against domuts that this is the sort of thing that keeps people from working together in the first place. Nobody I know wants to get involved in this sort of thing.
> 
> Now you originally said you wanted to start some sort of registry. Do you really think people are going to participate when they see how you are dealing with things solely in the abstract? Who wants to trust a person with such judgemental predispositions with valuable personal information, especially if they can fairly expect to be judged and found lacking. Don't tell me you haven't thought of this--- or have you? FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Sorry your right I got carried away. My appologies to all.


----------



## shesulsa

I thought we had reached a point of calm discussion, we really don't need to argue again, gentlemen.

 I'll say this, then no more so I may moderate rather than participate any further.

 The history of JBL beyond how it relates to Hapkido is for another thread, but I find it curious that if this degree was bestowed upon him by another Korean, that you might find questionable his abilities to perform.  The reason why I think this is relevant to the discussion at hand, which is a Hapkido Standard is this:  Who, tell me who, is REALLY authorized to qualify a rank bestowed upon another person but the person who bestowed the rank, regardless of your opinion of ability or validity?  A group of Americans who have made certain derisions from the history they have been told, read, and researched, then picked the one they like?  This sounds an awful lot like interpreting the Bible, really - anyone can justify anything using a line or two from the Bible.  It would be just as simple to say, "So-and-so is NOT a member of our organization, therefore his rank is not recognized and we cannot recommend you study with him," yet So-and-so could be a very talented individual with lots of knowledge and training who desires no affiliation with any governing body.

 And I must agree that 'pedigrees' will always be doubtful no matter who bestows them - there will always be warring parties and argumentative organizations who attempt to oust or defy another's sanctity or rank.  *YAWN*

 I don't think the best interests of the future of Korean Martial Arts in America are served by drawing a line in the sand, if you will. 

 I've decided that I'd really much rather be training.

 Thanks.


----------



## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> I really wish you would stop this. You have been around the KMA long enough to know that with a bit of digging you can cast aspersions  on ANYONES' background. OK--- so from one point of view Mr XYZ has some rank he doesn't merit. So what? I remember JR West commenting on how he got his upper dan ranks, but of course the difference was that he has always kept such things well in perspective.  And what about Mr. ABC and comparing his rank to Mr XYZ and finding one of the two falling short--- depending on how you view things. And shall we start now to talk about who is MORE closely relatesd to the Choi tradition? You KNOW thats what is going to come next. I KNOW you do. It NEVER stops with just comparisons. Someone ALWAYS has to be on top and someone on the bottom and NOONE ever wants to be on the bottom. I would bet dollars against domuts that this is the sort of thing that keeps people from working together in the first place. Nobody I know wants to get involved in this sort of thing.
> 
> Now you originally said you wanted to start some sort of registry. Do you really think people are going to participate when they see how you are dealing with things solely in the abstract? Who wants to trust a person with such judgemental predispositions with valuable personal information, especially if they can fairly expect to be judged and found lacking. Don't tell me you haven't thought of this--- or have you? FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce




Hello all, 

I really missed the underlying message in this post until I read it a few more times - what I get now is "Don't try and compile a list of real Hapkidoin from the Choi/Ji lineage - because LOTS of people will be left off that do other KMA's".

And you are right, we should not be judgemental - not at all, right?  So what about rank or training, if they are older and Korean (for example), they must have a high rank and be telling the absolute truth as to their training.  Just accept what is given to you (gosh, sounds like what you have been advocating we reject) and have no worries, it is not as simple as it seems, rank and training mean nothing, and this red kool-aid will help bring it all together.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I think a list would be fun and productive - relax Bruce, it may not be as hard as you think.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear kevin: 

".....Who said anything about being exclusive - why is it so bad to just let go? We are now letting go, of all those that want to go their own way - they can have their own fun and train in whatever they want. Stop playing the PC game, climb down off the fence and see that all these groups want to go off on their own - so let them. And as for the groups that want to use the name Hapkido, cool, as long as they have the validity to back it up......" 

Perhaps you believe you are doing the right thing, but history proves you wrong--- and you just did it again. "....And as for the groups that want to use the name Hapkido, cool, as long as they have the validity to back it up...." 

And what about the people who "don't" have "validity". And who judges whether a person is "valid" or not. The minute you start identifying "insiders" and "out-siders" you have gone right back to what people were doing in the last four decades. It does not matter how noble your intentions are, or how pure your motives are----- you are right back to repeating the cycle. The only way to break the cycle is to do something fundamentally different. I say that you need to teach people what you know rather than assigning some special status to it first. On this point you can't accuse me of being "PC" ( :ultracool ) because I can tell you that our culture is hell-&-gone from making a place for acceptance and tolerance. But if we actually could keep our identity and still make room for people who are not identical to us would this not be a good skill to teach the next generation? What do you think --- Dedication to what WE believe and --- simultaneously--- Acceptance of what OTHER PEOPLE believe?  Not a bad view, yes? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> The history of JBL beyond how it relates to Hapkido is for another thread, but I find it curious that if this degree was bestowed upon him by another Korean, that you might find questionable his abilities to perform.
> *Who said ANYTHING about his abilities - somebody always does this in the middle of a discussion of rank and lineage - I don't think that the abilities of Lee, Joo Bang have ever entered into this discussion - I think your off base here.*
> 
> The reason why I think this is relevant to the discussion at hand, which is a Hapkido Standard is this:  Who, tell me who, is REALLY authorized to qualify a rank bestowed upon another person but the person who bestowed the rank, regardless of your opinion of ability or validity?  A group of Americans who have made certain derisions from the history they have been told, read, and researched, then picked the one they like?
> 
> *Sorry here, but look at it from the other perspective - despite a lack of evidence, we are to accept a version of "the truth".  Choi died in 1986 - not really like "the Bible" if you ask me - still lots of eye-witness accounts around to verify statements made.*
> 
> This sounds an awful lot like interpreting the Bible, really - anyone can justify anything using a line or two from the Bible.  It would be just as simple to say, "So-and-so is NOT a member of our organization, therefore his rank is not recognized and we cannot recommend you study with him," yet So-and-so could be a very talented individual with lots of knowledge and training who desires no affiliation with any governing body.  *I haven't seen anywhere here where it has been suggested that a legitimate teacher of Hapkido that has no large organizational affiliation be shunned.*
> 
> And I must agree that 'pedigrees' will always be doubtful no matter who bestows them - there will always be warring parties and argumentative organizations who attempt to oust or defy another's sanctity or rank.  *YAWN*
> 
> *I believe, with all due respect that the only people who doubt lineage or try to "poo-poo" it are those that do not have it...*
> 
> 
> I don't think the best interests of the future of Korean Martial Arts in America are served by drawing a line in the sand, if you will.
> 
> I've decided that I'd really much rather be training.
> 
> Thanks.



Hello all,

Lineage discussions are not politics - oooh, bad politics.  Politics are the realm of he did this and can't do a jumping 540degree back kick so I won't train with him.  

Lineage, and the understanding of it, are as nesseccary to the study of martial arts as a good back fist.  Without lineage, we are just learning to fight - with it, we have a rich heritage of people that have trained and dedicated their lives to the continuation and dissemination of a specific type of self-preservation.  The realm of Lineage is the realm of those that wish to stand up and be counted as following the traditions set up by those before them - to live without lineage, or to discredit its importance is to train without an art.


----------



## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> And what about the people who "don't" have "validity". And who judges whether a person is "valid" or not.




Hello Bruce,

Is this so hard to fathum, if you are from the Choi/Ji line, you are doing Hapkido - if not then you are not...Don't see the complication there...

Off to the dojang, goodnight all


----------



## Disco

Without lineage, we are just learning to fight.

Interesting statement..........With or without lineage, the entire root purpose of practicing/learning "martial arts" was to learn how to fight or fight better. There was no other reason to formulate their existence. Down thru the years, people have included / piggybacked lots of other stuff to aid (their viewpoints) or to just embellish something they thought needed embellishment. In my viewpoint, this is where many people have either lost or wanted to change (for whatever reason), the true intent of what was being studied. Let me ask this question; you attend a seminar, lots of different folks you don't know. What's the first thing you do when you get on the deck/mat. You check people out on how they move and execute techniques. You then find yourself gravitating to people who you feel are your equal or better. Was background info a player at any stage of this process? NO! You reverted to the basic root of training. You accepted people at face value. After you get to know your new training partner(s), does lineage now take   precedence over ability? If it does in your book, then I'm at a loss for words. Something that was stated earlier, there are more than a few that have the proper lineage paperwork but are missing/lacking the skills. Just what does that really say to validate the process of a new directory?


----------



## Black Belt FC

BRAVO Disco you tell them!!!


----------



## glad2bhere

".....Without lineage, we are just learning to fight....." 

I'm sorry, but I think we are stepping across a line here.  To my way of thinking being able to claim a particular connection or lineage is an "indicator" and nothing more.  The degree to which one weights this indicator regarding its importance---well, you know what they say about opinions. 

My earlier post spoke to this same issue one-step-farther-removed. What if we now use lineage not as an indicator, and not as a matter of quality-control but as a way of deciding who is "in" and who is "out"? Am I the only person that sees a problem with this? The Korean martial sciences have traditionally never had this position--- not until the Japanese traditions wrought their influence with the ranking and Ryu-Ha systems. Its nice to have bragging rights about being related to some particular personality, but how about we keep things in perspective, ne? FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ".....Without lineage, we are just learning to fight....."
> 
> I'm sorry, but I think we are stepping across a line here. To my way of thinking being able to claim a particular connection or lineage is an "indicator" and nothing more. The degree to which one weights this indicator regarding its importance---well, you know what they say about opinions.
> 
> My earlier post spoke to this same issue one-step-farther-removed. What if we now use lineage not as an indicator, and not as a matter of quality-control but as a way of deciding who is "in" and who is "out"? Am I the only person that sees a problem with this? The Korean martial sciences have traditionally never had this position--- not until the Japanese traditions wrought their influence with the ranking and Ryu-Ha systems. Its nice to have bragging rights about being related to some particular personality, but how about we keep things in perspective, ne? FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

Interesting point you make but isn't lineage like your Family Tree? 

People should be proud of where they came from esspecially if it's from a good home? 

I think lineage should be important to a person and it's also a sign of good breeding in a sense. If your a student of a well respect MA v.s. McDojang.

What I see now and don't like is maybe were a bit immature to be able relate to each other if someone's lineage is not so well defined.

But the crux of this discussion is for the sake of what I call Traditional Hapkido, How to preserve Trad. HKD for the future when so many are desemating it into everything under the sun?


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

Absolutely!!  I agree 100%. People should be proud and people need to know their lineage and draw strength from that lineage. Where I think we need to take a look is in the role that lineage plays with what we are discussing.  For me, the role of lineage is VERY important, but it is not a controlling factor in making determinations.  Its is an indicator of a direction not a law or a rule.  Now in the Japanese traditions I think I am safe in saying that lineage in a typical Ryu has a kind of controlling influence, often deciding who is "in" and who is "out". This gets moderated to some extent by the use of "ha" or "branches" of the Ryu and this might well be how one carefully introduces variance--- but thats for another discussion. In my own experience I have had people give me information about themselves for my Hapkido tree which is at odds with what other people say ABOUT that same person. What is to be done then? So, if someone comes to me and says that they are a member of the Myung lineage thats fine but it does not immediately give them any special leverage with me one way or another. Its just one more qualifier thrown into the pot on the way to validating what they do.  Make sense? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

Ok then back to square one.

Is a Hapkido database with lineage, rank, teacher, and proof of it a good idea that will help the HKD community in keeping things straight?


----------



## glad2bhere

In a word "yes", but IMHO this depends on whether the emphasis in your statement is on the words "help" and "a good idea" or on the words
"keep things straight". People can always use more "help" and can always use more "good ideas". What we don't need is more things to "keep" stuff one way or another.  Make sense? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## iron_ox

Hello Stuart,

It might help in general, but I doubt it would help many of the routine posters on this board, who seem content to judge Hapkido as a group of techniques, or how well someone throws a front kick, applies a wrist lock, or moves in a circle.   This is the type of attitude the frauds love would love - praying on people because they have a few clever moves and a dynamic personality. When someone who is a fraud reads this, they know that because "no-one" really cares about where they trained or under whom, they can slip in and out of places teaching nonsense. I've met lots of physically talented martial artists - guys that could train for hours because of conditioning, and had a beutiful array of simple techniques, heck one was only 21 and already a fifth dan in "Hapkido".  Frankly, the depth of his technique was non-existant, as was his lineage.

Those that want to assume that fancy technique, or "come onto my mat" mentality means they are training in Hapkido, well, yeah they probably have "dark places" - like the space in their wallets where money was that has now gone to some poser clown for a worthless grade and fancy and equally worthless wallpaper.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

Now, see?  I have to agree with Kevin, but its from the OTHER side of the coin. Just like I told you that I don't want to be "controlled" by lineage, Kevin is exactly right that you cannot dismiss it altogether either. There are folks whose "lineage" is that they "have no lineage".  They wear the fact that they are "eclectic" in their approach and draw their material from just about anywhere it suits them. I remember one exchange with Don Burns (USHF) down in Indiana where he told me that Hapkido is "anything that works". For me this is going too far the other way. Now, I admit that there is some subjectivity here. By this I mean, for instance,  that though the Yon Mu Kwan takes a Mu-Do approach to Hapkido, I would bet that my teacher GM Myung probably gets a bit tiffed with me taking that Mu-do as far into the Ship Pal Gi as I have. And you and I BOTH know that Kevin will throw a hearty "amen" in there, too! ( Kevin?  Yes?). However, I take my Yon Mu Kwan membership very seriously and strive to delve deeper into the arts as I do. I think the pivotal point is how to deal with people ("not us") who represent themselves as Hapkido practitioners but whose positions are not the same as our own. After almost 20 years I am still hammering this out. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> Now, see? I have to agree with Kevin, but its from the OTHER side of the coin. Just like I told you that I don't want to be "controlled" by lineage, Kevin is exactly right that you cannot dismiss it altogether either. There are folks whose "lineage" is that they "have no lineage". They wear the fact that they are "eclectic" in their approach and draw their material from just about anywhere it suits them. I remember one exchange with Don Burns (USHF) down in Indiana where he told me that Hapkido is "anything that works". For me this is going too far the other way. Now, I admit that there is some subjectivity here. By this I mean, for instance, that though the Yon Mu Kwan takes a Mu-Do approach to Hapkido, I would bet that my teacher GM Myung probably gets a bit tiffed with me taking that Mu-do as far into the Ship Pal Gi as I have. And you and I BOTH know that Kevin will throw a hearty "amen" in there, too! ( Kevin? Yes?). However, I take my Yon Mu Kwan membership very seriously and strive to delve deeper into the arts as I do. I think the pivotal point is how to deal with people ("not us") who represent themselves as Hapkido practitioners but whose positions are not the same as our own. After almost 20 years I am still hammering this out. Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

I only thing I can say is to do the Database if the shoe fits wear it, if not that's Ok. 

If there's people who want help in that area maybe we can help them.


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## Disco

I understand where Kevin is coming from and actually a small part of my mindset agrees and is envious of this positioning. It is nice to "have family" so to speak. But to digress for a moment and focus on something else Kevin stated, "the depth of his technique was non-existant". Perhaps this is the salient point of contention that actually seperates most people. Just what is the "Depth of Technique" equation and is it actually relevant to what is being formulated?


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## glad2bhere

Dear Mike: 

Of all the possible points a person can consider regarding their martial art career this HAS to be one of the single toughest issues. I won't pretend to speak for the art on this one but can share some of what I have come to understand for myself. 

First off, lets put the gueppies to one side. They have the luxury of a kind of stair-step system through which they can ride the escalator to Cho-dan. I don't mean to maginalize their training efforts, but only say that when it comes to speaking of "depth" they have an easier time of it because their pathes are usually pretty well defined. So it is only of the Dan ranks that I want to speak. Here are some landmarks that I think bespeak "depth" in Hapkido practice. 

1.) An understanding of the technical or physical properties that make a technique work. Please Gawd, by the time a person makes it to Chodan this should be a given. certainly depth can be measured by how much a person is increasingly more technically adept as they progress through the ranks. 

2.) An understanding of the conceptual or theoretical properties that make a technique work. Again, please Gawd, by the time a person makes it to Chodan this should be a given but knowing how youth and muscle conspire against us there are always those who will use might over insight in making material work for them. The degree to which a person can fight smarter and not harder is another landmark. 

3.) An understanding of the art of "interchangeability is certainly a sign of depth. This can include the facility with which a person can transition from one ("failed"?) technique to another. It can also be manifest in the way in which a person can use the biomechanics of one weapon, or even empty-hand material to appropriately use another weapon--- even a weapon of opportunity. 

4.) Another field that demonstrates depth of the art is the ability to use the same principles one uses in the more physical techniques in intellectual, emotional and spiritual realms of human interaction. We know what it means to "un-blance" or "un-time" or "un-focus" a person physically and do it quite often on the mat. Can a person learn to do the same thing with a person who is attacking them, say, intellectually, or challenging them emotionally? 

This, of course, is not an exhautive list, but I thought it might be a good starting point for a response to your question.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco

Bruce, everything you said, is right on point. Either somebody knows what their doing or they don't and it will show, per Kevins statement. Yes, a 21 year old 5th Dan Hapkidoin should be looked on with a jaundice eye, I concur. But that is the extreme, not the norm, at least I hope it's not. This still brings me back, mostly for Kevins input, on the people who were taught correctly but lack the perfered pedigree. At the risk of  :whip:  I'll repeat that there are those who also fall on the opposite side of the fence. They have the pedigree paper, but lack the skill. We have all either seen or heard about such people. From my viewpoint, according to Kevins position (If I am in fact understanding it correctly), present paper - welcome aboard........Now correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure Kevin will -   ), but even "known" people in the Hapkido world, would be excluded for lack of "Papal Paper". Knowning and seeing (the KHF chronicles) how people are / were treated, I'm hard pressed to understand why other's would wish for defacto seperation. As much as either you or I and some other's would like to see this come full circle, I think we all realize it's just not going to happen. Yourself and Stuart were at the beginning, somewhat on the same page. It's starting to now look like the camp has been divided. Kevin is trying to secure (and I understand his positioning to a point), a clean slate with which to build from. It just can't happen..... No I'll revise that statement - It can happen, but at a seperatist cost, which puts everything back at square one again.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Mike: 

Yes, and we really DO NEED to talk about this. We really DO NEED to do better than those who came before us. It takes no character at all to simply repeat the same mistakes. I refuse to believe that we can't come to some better reconciliation. Now--- I say this because I think to some extent working with Kevin or Todd or many other people would, be a kind of clean slate, with some odd bits here and there. But, I am beginning to finally appreciate that there are also a great number of people who have a vested interest in keeping the Hapkido community divided and for the life of me I can't understand why. I DO know that they exist and that up to this time I have either not accepted that they exist or underestimated their need to keep things divided up into separate fiefs. For instance, there is really not all of that much difference between the SIN MU and the YON MU KWAN, but there are folks who simply see nothing of Hapkido unless it comes from the mouth of Ji. I have run into the same people in WHRDA and KSW with there particular groups and then there are those who have a fanaticism about their particular independent teacher. We can do better than this, but I don't think the issue is finding and identifying commonalities. Rather it seems to be some peoples need to be "special" or a "large fish in a small pond" or ?????? I am not sure how one goes about overcoming this sort of parochial attitude. JR West brings a number of his people under a single banner twice a year and they have a really good time. Not sure how much is accomplished beyond getting people into the same building at the same time.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco

"I refuse to believe that we can't come to some better reconciliation. Now--- I say this because I think to some extent working with Kevin or Todd or many other people would, be a kind of clean slate".

Bruce, I understand your desire to "come together", but I fear that the die has already been cast. Just going back over all the posts and it is plain to see. I think this idea and people started out with the right intentions, but as it has progressed in thought, things (attitudes) seemed to have taken different positions. I will say, that I have received an education, over and above what I previously was imbued with. Hapkido history is definitely rife with many unanswered questions and people who seem to have circumvented, what we have come to perceive, as the normal proliferation for obtaining rank. A selective "caste" system has been established and I am sorry to say that many of us fail the DNA for acceptance. Just an out loud thought here; "We know that Choi was somewhat selective (from reported history), but I wonder if his selectivity was based upon where a person came from or how they presented themselves"?


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## Black Belt FC

Gentlemen,





It would appear at first glance that a national registry suggested by people who post here is an attempt to shed light on people who have authentic lineage and training. But unfortunately Im very skeptical; the motives appear to me nothing more than an attempt to monopolies Hapkido and self-glorification. 





In the past posting I listed several unfortunate experiences I had. Some people (not all) who can make a dynamic impact the Hapkido community are either not willing to share training time or knowledge or concern about which students will work against them. Theyre holding on tight to Hapkido as if its an unclaimed winning lotto ticket. Others complain exhaustingly how theyre doing the REAL thing and everybody else is not as if that approach will insure them students or national respect. I honestly doubt it will. 





The ultimate way to make an impact is in my opinion, by producing quality black belt who in turn will instruct others. Another way is to put your money where your mouth is and getting on the mat with other practitioners, train and instruct with them.





I dont see how a national registry will help Hapkido but rather it will create more hostility due to the many fractions of Hapkido in the US. Which master, organizations and groups will be recognized? If some individuals have it their way they will exclude some organizations just to promote theirs.





I prefer just to get together with the usual suspects, you know them; Whalen, Timmerman, West, Thomas etc. and learn from them. 







Lugo


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## Black Belt FC

*PS HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYONE!!!!!*


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## shesulsa

*~ Mod. Note.*

  Black Belt FC, please refer to the rules for cross-posting.  You'll find them here.

  Please keep the conversation on topic.

  ~ Georgia Ketchmark
  ~ MT Moderator


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## Black Belt FC

*Understood..............Thank You*


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## glad2bhere

Dear Mike -- and Lugo: 

"....Hapkido history is definitely rife with many unanswered questions and people who seem to have circumvented, what we have come to perceive, as the normal proliferation for obtaining rank. A selective "caste" system has been established and I am sorry to say that many of us fail the DNA for acceptance. Just an out loud thought here; "We know that Choi was somewhat selective (from reported history), but I wonder if his selectivity was based upon where a person came from or how they presented themselves"?....." 

OK--- I don't mean to be antagonistic by what I am about to write, but I wonder if I am hearing what was written by you two for what I think its saying. Is what I am reading in your posts that the "die is cast" and that we unable to alter the nature of our community? Worse yet--- are we going to have to face the possibility that many of the leading practitioners of Hapkido arts are leaders in name only? Even worse than THAT are we to have to face that putting all the pretty words about character development, interpersonal growth and community most of our compatriots are narrow-minded at best and parochial hypocrits at worst? Do we only come out of thre best part of ourselves when we are "at leisure" to do so--- otherwise its every man for himself? I guess I am at a loss to understand what we have been working at in our respective careers if the final result is a clan of self-serving petty despots-- each fervently protecting their own fief. If this is true then I would need to conceed that any further work to play up the commonalities and similarities among us would only work if everyone could identify some large pay-off for doing so, yes? Failing that, each person looks to his own efforts and his own fief. Am I hearing this accurately? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco

Bruce, in my opinion - yes you are hearing it correctly. Just a condensed review if I may. If not mistaken, didn't this start out as a common reference terminology chart and then it expanded to technical standards?

1.  Let's put our heads together and come up with Standards.
2.  People listed what they felt was needed. 
3.  People then referenced who/what should be included/excluded.
4.  Personalities were then introduced and rank was questioned.
5.  People then were/are trying to formulate "Help" "Good Idea" "Keep It Straight" concepts.

Understand, I applaud you for even contemplating such a task. History has shown that our teachers were and still are highly unmotivated to anything remotely being conceived as unification. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't this thread make a hard right turn when the "who should / shouldn't be allowed" segment aired?

Respectfully
Mike


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## kwanjang

Hello Stuart:

I tried to post this a while back, but I have had lots of problems with this forum for the past week or so.  Seems that things are back to normal again, so here it goes (albeit without the original post I replied to).

FWIW:
GM Seo still teaches the same thing he has always taught, Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do.  It is not uncommon (in any business) to change the name of an organization but still teach the same thing (like GM JI now calls his art Sin Moo Hap Ki Do etc. etc.)  I guess my main problem is that I do not believe that lineage makes an art, it merely notes some of the people who trained in the art.  IMHO, the art itself is the art.  

I have seen some folks who HAVE lineage who are really not showing Hap Ki Do for what it is, do you get what I mean???  The lineage is there, but the art is not.  For example, how could I tell that Bruce trained in another art before???  It is simple, I could SEE it!  Does this make Bruce a bad practitioner... NO.  Is he Hap Ki Do... YES.  Lines of who IS and who is NOT cannot be as cut and dried as you might like to see them.  There are many considerations to be looked at, and my question remains... WHO among you is qualified to make such judgements?  One might make a database for the Choi or JI lineage; fine, but to say that THESE folks are the only ones who know Hap Ki Do is ludicrous.  

BTW, up to the last post I read on this subject, I still have not seen anyone deny that GM Kimm is Hap Ki Do.  Which one of you illustrious folks are going to tell the world that Doju Nim Kimm is not Hap Ki Do, because he studied with GM Suh for many years?  What about JR West??? He studied with GM Kimm, and his seminars are among the most popular among REAL Hap Ki Do people.  

Why is it that these REAL Hap Ki Do people come to learn from NON Hap KI Do people JR and myself????  My ring is filled with REAL Hap Ki Do people interested in what I have to teach, and every year I am asked to teach during intermissions... again with a capacity crowd.  Glad to do it to, but in your book (and for sure in Kevin's book) I am apparently a fraud.  

Most of you are happy to have GM Kimm's Hap Ki Do Bible on your shelf; but, if lineage alone is the qualifying factor of being Hap Ki Do, the author of the best book on your art can not even be recognized by you.  Does this not make you think at least a little bit about the problem with your and Kevin's take on this?  

It would be the easiest thing in the world for me to just say the hell with even discussing this, but I believe that this would let you and Kevin get away with doing even more damage Hap Ki Do than already has been afflicted on the art.  Yes, be proud of your lineage, but that does not make you an authority on who teaches Hap Ki Do.  What is the REAL agenda you and Kevin have???  

It surely is not promoting Hap Ki Do.  Seems to me that NON Hap Ki Do people like GM Seo, GM Kimm, JR, myself, and other "non continuous" lineage people are doing one hell of a lot more for Hap Ki Do than you folks are.  You can't gain Hap Ki Do recognition by working the typewriter regardless of your lineage, and  I suggest you try doing something more positive on the mat (in Jackson or one of my seminars in Canada).  You're welcome anytime, and I will NOT harbor ill will, that simply is not my style  MY goal is to promote goodwill among those who love Hap Ki Do.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Mike: 

"......1. Let's put our heads together and come up with Standards....." 

yes. 

"......2. People listed what they felt was needed......" 

Well, yes and no. Sorta;  kinda;  approximately.........

"......3. People then referenced who/what should be included/excluded
4. Personalities were then introduced and rank was questioned....." 

YES YES YES!!!!  And THIS is the point I don't understand. We have seen the results of this sort of elitist thinking in the past generation! Why are we wanting to repeat it yet again now that WE can choose something different! I don't know how we can best inter-relate our arts but there needs to be some better answer than what was past to us by the previous leadership! 

Are we not to learn from our mistakes in the past? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy: 

".....It surely is not promoting Hap Ki Do. Seems to me that NON Hap Ki Do people like GM Seo, GM Kimm, JR, myself, and other "non continuous" lineage people are doing one hell of a lot more for Hap Ki Do than you folks are. You can't gain Hap Ki Do recognition by working the typewriter regardless of your lineage, and I suggest you try doing something more positive on the mat (in Jackson or one of my seminars in Canada). You're welcome anytime, and I will NOT harbor ill will, that simply is not my style MY goal is to promote goodwill among those who love Hap Ki Do......" 

And for my part I am working to stay with the "inclusion" rather than "exclusion" approach. In this I am very sure at least you and I are on the same page. 

However, folks might represent what they do, I think you and I and a host of other people see what they do as Hapkido. Gawd knows that we have seen enough discussions in the past in which people's practice (regardless of what they CALL their art always comes back to that same narrow nexus back in the late 50-s and early 60-s. OK. Fine. Lee and Suh and a lot of old-timers will probably go to their grave stating that they teach something OTHER THAN Hapkido if only because of their particular spin on it. For my part I think that your approach and JR's approach is correct in that it speaks to including rather than excluding folks. Where I would like to see such venues go is in the development of some sort of "common language" whereby any person, of any Hapkido disciple, could trade on the similarities among practitioners and thereby expand their practice. For instance, in my sword material, I don't require people to learn from square-one in order to practice traditional Korean sword.  I take them where they are at, polish what deficits I see and move them ahead. To my mind this is where I see Hapkido going if it is to survive. 
Now, I will be the FIRST person to say that this makes things VERY difficult for me.  For instance, I think its important to keep up on my practice of, say, the 6 KEECHO Hyung from KSW in order to appreciate the importance of KSW footwork as compared to my own. But if I wanted an easy path I would not have decided to teach and would have continued to focus exclusively on my own training by itself.  Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

Hello Stuart:

I tried to post this a while back, but I have had lots of problems with this forum for the past week or so. Seems that things are back to normal again, so here it goes (albeit without the original post I replied to).

FWIW:
GM Seo still teaches the same thing he has always taught, Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do. It is not uncommon (in any business) to change the name of an organization but still teach the same thing (like GM JI now calls his art Sin Moo Hap Ki Do etc. etc.) I guess my main problem is that I do not believe that lineage makes an art, it merely notes some of the people who trained in the art. IMHO, the art itself is the art.* I see what you mean and agree for the most part, my problem and alot of Hapkidoins feel the problem is a little deeper.*

*1. Will Kuk Sool or HRD wont recognize my HKD rank so even though they say it's a different system. Thier own writen history says they are not the same Art. Would you send me a Kuk Sool 5th Dan in recognition for my Sin Moo rank?*

*2. The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern.*


I have seen some folks who HAVE lineage who are really not showing Hap Ki Do for what it is, do you get what I mean??? The lineage is there, but the art is not. For example, how could I tell that Bruce trained in another art before??? It is simple, I could SEE it! Does this make Bruce a bad practitioner... NO. Is he Hap Ki Do... YES. Lines of who IS and who is NOT cannot be as cut and dried as you might like to see them. There are many considerations to be looked at, and my question remains... WHO among you is qualified to make such judgements? One might make a database for the Choi or JI lineage; fine, but to say that THESE folks are the only ones who know Hap Ki Do is ludicrous. 

BTW, up to the last post I read on this subject, I still have not seen anyone deny that GM Kimm is Hap Ki Do. Which one of you illustrious folks are going to tell the world that Doju Nim Kimm is not Hap Ki Do, because he studied with GM Suh for many years? What about JR West??? He studied with GM Kimm, and his seminars are among the most popular among REAL Hap Ki Do people. 

*Actually Dr Kimm is a student of Doju Ji and has a 9th Dan in Sin Moo. Dr. Kimm 1st Hapkido book is the "Sin Moo System" almost technique for technique as I learned it from Ji Han Jae FWIW. But so is Han MU Do just re-organized.*

Why is it that these REAL Hap Ki Do people come to learn from NON Hap KI Do people JR and myself???? My ring is filled with REAL Hap Ki Do people interested in what I have to teach, and every year I am asked to teach during intermissions... again with a capacity crowd. Glad to do it to, but in your book (and for sure in Kevin's book) I am apparently a fraud. 

Most of you are happy to have GM Kimm's Hap Ki Do Bible on your shelf; but, if lineage alone is the qualifying factor of being Hap Ki Do, the author of the best book on your art can not even be recognized by you. Does this not make you think at least a little bit about the problem with your and Kevin's take on this? 

*Dr Kimm is real HKD in my book so is JR and I pesonally never said anything about either of them regarding thier HKD connection or thier skills. I respect them as my seniors as well as thier talents and dedication to the Art. The same for you Rudy.*

It would be the easiest thing in the world for me to just say the hell with even discussing this, but I believe that this would let you and Kevin get away with doing even more damage Hap Ki Do than already has been afflicted on the art. Yes, be proud of your lineage, but that does not make you an authority on who teaches Hap Ki Do. What is the REAL agenda you and Kevin have??? 

It surely is not promoting Hap Ki Do. Seems to me that NON Hap Ki Do people like GM Seo, GM Kimm, JR, myself, and other "non continuous" lineage people are doing one hell of a lot more for Hap Ki Do than you folks are. You can't gain Hap Ki Do recognition by working the typewriter regardless of your lineage, and I suggest you try doing something more positive on the mat (in Jackson or one of my seminars in Canada). You're welcome anytime, and I will NOT harbor ill will, that simply is not my style MY goal is to promote goodwill among those who love Hap Ki Do.

*I have no ill will I think your reading me all wrong. I still think HKD is HKD from a certain source I don't care how you got there either, but some people have simply no traceable connection. That's a fact!*

Rudy, kwanjang


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## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

".......The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern......" 

Yes, and I will say once against that THIS is where our dialogue needs to begin. IMVO it is NOT sufficent to simply say that these people can come into the Hapkido fold just as soon as they subscribe to some particular lineage, or philosophy. If they have such skills that they are able to practice safely and effectively with others we need to use that as a starting point and build from there. I will use myself for an example. 

When a student comes to me, if they can safely practice with my other students we move from there. If we are doing things that are familiar to that new person then so much the better. If we are doing things that person does not recognize then they get taught what we are doing. The idea is to include people as much as possible.  In Public Schools I think this would be called "mainstreaming" a student and as far as I know is the goal of every Special Education class and student I am familiar with. In the YON MU KWAN we press to get people "involved" and not "indoctrinated". Now, I don't kid myself.  There are always folks who want the class to be a bit more this or a bit more that. From that standpoint I make it clear that I teach YMK Hapkido. Usually this is enough for anyone. For those who want a more eclectic approach with Escrima sticks, BJJ grappling or exotic Chinese weapons I make it clear that is not what we are about. But we still press the point of being about support and facilitation than about recruitment and I think that needs to be the focus in the Hapkido community. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> ".......The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern......"
> 
> Yes, and I will say once against that THIS is where our dialogue needs to begin. IMVO it is NOT sufficent to simply say that these people can come into the Hapkido fold just as soon as they subscribe to some particular lineage, or philosophy. If they have such skills that they are able to practice safely and effectively with others we need to use that as a starting point and build from there. I will use myself for an example.
> 
> When a student comes to me, if they can safely practice with my other students we move from there. If we are doing things that are familiar to that new person then so much the better. If we are doing things that person does not recognize then they get taught what we are doing. The idea is to include people as much as possible. In Public Schools I think this would be called "mainstreaming" a student and as far as I know is the goal of every Special Education class and student I am familiar with. In the YON MU KWAN we press to get people "involved" and not "indoctrinated". Now, I don't kid myself. There are always folks who want the class to be a bit more this or a bit more that. From that standpoint I make it clear that I teach YMK Hapkido. Usually this is enough for anyone. For those who want a more eclectic approach with Escrima sticks, BJJ grappling or exotic Chinese weapons I make it clear that is not what we are about. But we still press the point of being about support and facilitation than about recruitment and I think that needs to be the focus in the Hapkido community. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


I have students from Karate, TKD, Judo but to me as long as thier serious HKD students and are parts of my group they're in HKD.

They only time I will take exception is when I know someone's there to learn a few joint locks for thier own purposes and have no interest in the Art. I'm not interested in helping that person because I want to teach the Art not a few techniques to someone.

So basically what I'm saying is anyone can train with me regardless of background as long as they want to learn Hapkido.


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## glad2bhere

OK. Good start. Now lets take the next step.  If a student were to ask you what tradition you teach--- what lineage would you claim and what would be your rationale? 

If you do not claim a particular lineage, what answer do you make in that case, and how do you make sure they know that what you are teaching is not say, Judo but under a different label?  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## kwanjang

Stuart answers:
"I see what you mean and agree for the most part, my problem and alot of Hapkidoins feel the problem is a little deeper.

 1. Will Kuk Sool or HRD wont recognize my HKD rank so even though they say it's a different system. Thier own writen history says they are not the same Art. Would you send me a Kuk Sool 5th Dan in recognition for my Sin Moo rank?

*Hello Stuart:
Ofcourse I will not do that, but no one here was asking YOU to send a certificate to US either.  This thread is not talking about certification, it is talking about exclusion because of broken lineage.*

 2. The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern.

Actually Dr Kimm is a student of Doju Ji and has a 9th Dan in Sin Moo. Dr. Kimm 1st Hapkido book is the "Sin Moo System" almost technique for technique as I learned it from Ji Han Jae FWIW. But so is Han MU Do just re-organized.

* Doctor Kimm was one of Kuk Sool Hap Ki Dos main men (with GM Suh) way back in the late sixties.  In fact, he was listed as one of its directors.  So, at the very least, he jumped ship long ago, and he began his own org not long after.  So, how is it that he IS recognized as Hap Ki Do by you, and others who did the same thing are not???  BTW, would it surprise you that the book you speak of is just about the same as the old Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, technique for technique, as well.  KSHKD just has some additional material such as hyung and some weapons; in fact, if you were to put Dr. Kimm's two books together (Kuk Sool and Hap Ki Do), you basically come up with the old KSHKD curriculum*

Dr Kimm is real HKD in my book so is JR and I pesonally never said anything about either of them regarding thier HKD connection or thier skills. I respect them as my seniors as well as thier talents and dedication to the Art. The same for you Rudy.

*What art are you speaking of here???  Dr. Kimm received high dahn rank in Kuk Sool from GM Suh in return for many years of study (during which time he could not have studied the full time Hap Ki Do normally required to earn 9th dahn Hap Ki Do with GM Ji).  Tell me how anyone can get such high ranks in different arts if they are NOT basically the same art regardles of what lineage these folks claim or deny to further their own cause???*

I have no ill will I think your reading me all wrong. I still think HKD is HKD from a certain source I don't care how you got there either, but some people have simply no traceable connection. That's a fact!

*Stuart: I agree wholeheartedly with you there; however, Kevin is NOT talking about no traceable connection, even Kevin agrees that GM Seo personally received Dahn rank from GM Choi.  Neither of YOU can say the same thing, but you ARE both willing to exclude that man just because of his brother's claims.* 

* I believe that neither one of us are bearing ill will, but it does not change the fact that you and Kevin ARE talking about excluding people like myself just because our teachers did the same thing as Dr. Kimm and so many others did (without us students having any say in the matter).  

There just HAS to be a different criteria than continuous lineage to define Hap Ki Do unless you really DO want to exclude people like GM Seo, Dr. Kimm, JR, and myself.  You simply can't pick and choose a personality just because he wrote the best book on the subject.  

Dr. Kimm has for decades NOT claimed to be Hap Ki Do. He also started his own org and named it something else, he also studied with LOTS of other (in your viewpoint) people with different styles, and for many, and I mean VERY many, years he studied with GM Suh (the very man who Kevin keeps hammering on for having abandoned or never been Hap Ki Do in the first place).  What IS the difference???  

FWIW, I have never "given" away anything Hap Ki Do (or other martial art) unless it is the free lessons I provide to many of the people who DO have the Hap Ki Do ties you speak of lol.  Ironic does it not seem that way to you? *


----------



## Disco

"I'm not interested in helping that person because I want to teach the Art not a few techniques to someone".

I think we may have just hit on the real crux of the problem. Just what is "The Art" and is the art the same for all. I've always had a very difficult time understanding peoples versions of the art and just how did it become an art in the first place? Did Choi or Ji sit down and say........hmmmm I think I'll start an art form!!  Extremely doubtful, they started a martial discipline, which only had one purpose and that was to physically stop another human being from inflicting harm on their person and so it was handed down. Through the constant training aspect, a person's technical prowess should become well honed and they will look better at what their doing then a newer counterpart. Is this the "art" part of the equation? Or is the art all the extraneous elements that people have piggybacked on top of the physical aspects to elongate training times and fill the coffers? Is the "art" a constant companion when someone is in the throws of a real incounter? Is the art subjective to possibly undermining the physicality of the discipline? So many questions, but inquisitive minds want to know.


----------



## American HKD

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Stuart answers:
> "I see what you mean and agree for the most part, my problem and alot of Hapkidoins feel the problem is a little deeper.
> 
> 1. Will Kuk Sool or HRD wont recognize my HKD rank so even though they say it's a different system. Thier own writen history says they are not the same Art. Would you send me a Kuk Sool 5th Dan in recognition for my Sin Moo rank?
> 
> *Hello Stuart:*
> *Ofcourse I will not do that, but no one here was asking YOU to send a certificate to US either. This thread is not talking about certification, it is talking about exclusion because of broken lineage.*
> 
> 2. The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern.
> 
> Actually Dr Kimm is a student of Doju Ji and has a 9th Dan in Sin Moo. Dr. Kimm 1st Hapkido book is the "Sin Moo System" almost technique for technique as I learned it from Ji Han Jae FWIW. But so is Han MU Do just re-organized.
> 
> *Doctor Kimm was one of Kuk Sool Hap Ki Dos main men (with GM Suh) way back in the late sixties. In fact, he was listed as one of its directors. So, at the very least, he jumped ship long ago, and he began his own org not long after. So, how is it that he IS recognized as Hap Ki Do by you, and others who did the same thing are not??? BTW, would it surprise you that the book you speak of is just about the same as the old Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, technique for technique, as well. KSHKD just has some additional material such as hyung and some weapons; in fact, if you were to put Dr. Kimm's two books together (Kuk Sool and Hap Ki Do), you basically come up with the old KSHKD curriculum*
> 
> Dr Kimm is real HKD in my book so is JR and I pesonally never said anything about either of them regarding thier HKD connection or thier skills. I respect them as my seniors as well as thier talents and dedication to the Art. The same for you Rudy.
> 
> *What art are you speaking of here??? Dr. Kimm received high dahn rank in Kuk Sool from GM Suh in return for many years of study (during which time he could not have studied the full time Hap Ki Do normally required to earn 9th dahn Hap Ki Do with GM Ji). Tell me how anyone can get such high ranks in different arts if they are NOT basically the same art regardles of what lineage these folks claim or deny to further their own cause???*
> 
> I have no ill will I think your reading me all wrong. I still think HKD is HKD from a certain source I don't care how you got there either, but some people have simply no traceable connection. That's a fact!
> 
> *Stuart: I agree wholeheartedly with you there; however, Kevin is NOT talking about no traceable connection, even Kevin agrees that GM Seo personally received Dahn rank from GM Choi. Neither of YOU can say the same thing, but you ARE both willing to exclude that man just because of his brother's claims.*
> 
> *I believe that neither one of us are bearing ill will, but it does not change the fact that you and Kevin ARE talking about excluding people like myself just because our teachers did the same thing as Dr. Kimm and so many others did (without us students having any say in the matter). *
> 
> *There just HAS to be a different criteria than continuous lineage to define Hap Ki Do unless you really DO want to exclude people like GM Seo, Dr. Kimm, JR, and myself. You simply can't pick and choose a personality just because he wrote the best book on the subject. *
> 
> *Dr. Kimm has for decades NOT claimed to be Hap Ki Do. He also started his own org and named it something else, he also studied with LOTS of other (in your viewpoint) people with different styles, and for many, and I mean VERY many, years he studied with GM Suh (the very man who Kevin keeps hammering on for having abandoned or never been Hap Ki Do in the first place). What IS the difference??? *
> 
> *FWIW, I have never "given" away anything Hap Ki Do (or other martial art) unless it is the free lessons I provide to many of the people who DO have the Hap Ki Do ties you speak of lol. Ironic does it not seem that way to you? *


 
Dear Rudy,

I was trying to think of a way to make completed issue simple I see now it's not so simple to you and maybe others. No offense intended.

I also see that you strongly feel the HKD, KS, HRD, HMD are all the Arts are the same systems and should be treated as such, at least that's what I think you're saying.

What should the critria be how would best serve the HKD community establishing who's who or do you think nothings like this database is needed at all?


----------



## American HKD

Disco said:
			
		

> "I'm not interested in helping that person because I want to teach the Art not a few techniques to someone".
> 
> I think we may have just hit on the real crux of the problem. Just what is "The Art" and is the art the same for all. I've always had a very difficult time understanding peoples versions of the art and just how did it become an art in the first place? Did Choi or Ji sit down and say........hmmmm I think I'll start an art form!! Extremely doubtful, they started a martial discipline, which only had one purpose and that was to physically stop another human being from inflicting harm on their person and so it was handed down. Through the constant training aspect, a person's technical prowess should become well honed and they will look better at what their doing then a newer counterpart. Is this the "art" part of the equation? Or is the art all the extraneous elements that people have piggybacked on top of the physical aspects to elongate training times and fill the coffers? Is the "art" a constant companion when someone is in the throws of a real incounter? Is the art subjective to possibly undermining the physicality of the discipline? So many questions, but inquisitive minds want to know.


Bruce 

The "Art" is nothing more than the continuation of our tradtional as you already know!


----------



## iron_ox

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Glad to do it to, but in your book (and for sure in Kevin's book) I am apparently a fraud.
> 
> *Hey, I NEVER CALLED YOU A FRAUD, BUT YOU SEEM VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT LABEL YOURSELF*.
> 
> Most of you are happy to have GM Kimm's Hap Ki Do Bible on your shelf*;(Let's exaggerate, shall we...)* but, if lineage alone is the qualifying factor of being Hap Ki Do, the author of the best book on your art can not even be recognized by you.
> 
> *Excuse me, but the author of any work need not be a definative expert in that field - as long as the sources are documented.*
> 
> Does this not make you think at least a little bit about the problem with your and Kevin's take on this?  *The only problem is the continuing effort to make Hapkido generic. *
> 
> 
> It would be the easiest thing in the world for me to just say the hell with even discussing this, but I believe that this would let you and Kevin get away with doing even more damage Hap Ki Do than already has been afflicted on the art.
> 
> *Here I take great umbrigde to this comment.  No one else seems to think that talking about a list of traceble lineage back to Choi/Ji is doing damage - except YOU - maybe because you stand to lose money, prestige - who knows and WHO CARES - but you will not make a statement like that about me pal when your lineage in Hapkido is SO shaky!  No one here, including ME has taken a direct hit at you.  How about the damages done by constantly writing of the notion that "you are trying to keep us apart..."? Frankly, it seems the only poeople a list worries are those who do no have lineage with Choi/Ji - but how funny is it that over and over, I for one have said that people should train and do whatever they want - have fun, but if it has no connection to Choi/Ji, it ain't Hapkido. *
> 
> Yes, be proud of your lineage, but that does not make you an authority on who teaches Hap Ki Do.
> 
> *Who said we were - take a breath and think BEFORE you type. *
> 
> What is the REAL agenda you and Kevin have??? *Can't speak for Stuart, but my AGENDA (Man, you are so overdramatic.) is maybe to let people have an original view of Hapkido - I could care less if that flys in the face of many of you that call what you do Hapkido. *
> 
> It surely is not promoting Hap Ki Do. *? *  Seems to me that NON Hap Ki Do people like GM Seo, GM Kimm, JR, myself, and other "non continuous" lineage people are doing one hell of a lot more for Hap Ki Do than you folks are.
> 
> *How the hell do you know what I do or not - get down off you high horse and stop acting like this thread is about you - it isn't. My dojang is by choice in a city with a population of some 5 million people - YOU cannot say the same - just because I don't jump on the internet and tell everyone every single move I make, don't be so self righteous as to think you know me or what I do. I was about to blow my own horn here and make a list, but that brings me right down to your level - and I won't bend that low. *
> 
> You can't gain Hap Ki Do recognition by working the typewriter regardless of your lineage, *(you should know - as hard as you try)*
> 
> and  I suggest you try doing something more positive on the mat (in Jackson or one of my seminars in Canada).
> *Yeah, come do non-Hapkido right (your assessment)? So, the only way we are "positive" is to pay you - now we can all see you single agenda - to protect the LITTLE turf you have for financial gain - sad really.*
> 
> You're welcome anytime, and I will NOT harbor ill will, that simply is not my style  MY goal is to promote goodwill among those who love Hap Ki Do.



Promote goodwill? By saying that two of us are doing damage when all we do is ask questions - you are such a blowhard.  Typical chatroom etiquette, cut too close to home and the argument becomes "it's you guys that are bad, not us - look at them everyone, see how they try to ask questions of us, who chose ourselves as leaders.  See how they try and prove that much of what we tell you is false - hey, ignore the man behind the curtain" (love that analogy).

Sorry to all here, moderators included.  I hate having to rant - but it is always the self-appointed neighsayers that scream the loudest when the position they try to guard is questioned.  Especially when money is invloved. It seems a couple of yoe worry a great deal about "exclusion" when that has never been an issue.  I asked about Seo, and seems he has a first dan from Choi, so he could be on a list, as a first dan - I'm not interested in his KSW rank - but for all my asking, that is the only Hapkido rank people can give.

Before you call foul, look in the mirror - the damage you do may be to yourself.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Mike: 

".... Through the constant training aspect, a person's technical prowess should become well honed and they will look better at what their doing then a newer counterpart. Is this the "art" part of the equation? ....." 

Ironic as it might be, though I view this as the single most important part of the Hapkido arts this is probably the one place where folks will *cut the most corners. * 

By definition an "art" is a skill that develops over time, usually through constant refinement. Most people use the term "martial art" when what they do is nowhere NEAR either "martial" or "art". Some people are doing "martial sport" with all of the competition and trophies that go with it. Some people might be doing a "military sport" or even a "military art." But the idea of continually polishing ones' ability to perform techniques they most probably will never use, for no other reason than because it may, in time, make them better people---- well, folks just aren't buying that. In my kwan I am currently prepping myself to refine my kwan dao skills. Tell me where I am ever going to use this bad puppy in modern America? Its one of the five basic sword architectures of Korea and is part of the Korean Mu-do, but when am I ever going to find myself on the battlefield swinging this bad doggy around?! The same goes for the Ye-do and Ssang Soo Do. Its not like we are going to carry these around. So what are we really playing at? 

For me the acid test is whether I would do what I do even if noone else wanted to do it--- no one else was watching---- no one was paying me--- noone had a single use for anything I was doing or would deride me or disenfranchise me for continuing to do it.  Would I STILL DO IT? For me the answer is "YES" because in the end the purpose for what I do is to produce a "Bruce" who consistently comes out of the best part of myself. The banging around in the classroom is tantamount to the noisy banging that goes on at the anvil as a blacksmith forms his piece. In the end it is not that I can execute a lethal action, but that the "I" involved can correctly use the power I have accrued to be a better member of the community. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## shesulsa

_*~Mod. Note.*

*Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.*

*~Georgia Ketchmark
 ~MT Moderator*_


----------



## American HKD

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Promote goodwill? By saying that two of us are doing damage when all we do is ask questions - you are such a blowhard. Typical chatroom etiquette, cut too close to home and the argument becomes "it's you guys that are bad, not us - look at them everyone, see how they try to ask questions of us, who chose ourselves as leaders. See how they try and prove that much of what we tell you is false - hey, ignore the man behind the curtain" (love that analogy).
> 
> Sorry to all here, moderators included. I hate having to rant - but it is always the self-appointed neighsayers that scream the loudest when the position they try to guard is questioned. Especially when money is invloved. It seems a couple of yoe worry a great deal about "exclusion" when that has never been an issue. I asked about Seo, and seems he has a first dan from Choi, so he could be on a list, as a first dan - I'm not interested in his KSW rank - but for all my asking, that is the only Hapkido rank people can give.
> 
> Before you call foul, look in the mirror - the damage you do may be to yourself.


Kevin

It seems to me it's too difficult or painful or whatever in general for martial artists to come together or seperate for that matter, but this puts the icing on the cake.

You wan't to have your own seperate Art and be considered a seperate system make up some history and then get upset when some else says your not part of us. That's ridicculus. 

I know guys who have certifcations in several Arts but the distintion is clear and simple. There are many Ryu of Jujutsu but everyone know this ones not that one.

Why Hapkido has to be all things to all people it a little hard to understand maybe its just my short commings. 

Lastly I think this is the exact point. 

When I started my own Alarm Company and left my former employer even though I learned my craft from them I became thier Competetion. I no longer represent them and now represent my own business affairs. I can't market myself as them anymore because I'm not part of them anymore, that was the past.

Anyway I quit this non-sense and I'm done waisting my time from now on it's just for giggles and laughs.

BTW Rudy I still like you very much and respect your opinion. We just agree to disagree on this subject


----------



## Master Todd Miller

Wow, this thread has been active!

I never got the impression that Kevin or Stuart were excluding anyone.  It seems more like clarifying what is being done!  I respect GM Timmerman and Master West but I do not consider what they teach Hapkido exactly!  There is nothing wrong with doing different things, I am sure what these esteemed Masters are very good at what they do but it is not traditional Hapkido.  Traditional Hapkido has two differing styles: Sin Moo Hapkido and Choi, Yong Sul style Hapkido.  The important thing is to not be ashamed of what you do and as far as Seo, In Sun, It is evident that he is a GM in Kuk Sool Won not Hapkido.  It does not matter how good or bad he is or if he is a good teacher or not!  I would love to get on the Matt with GM Timmerman or Master West at some point not because of their Hapki skills but because they seem like good people.  I have been on the matt with Kevin and I know he is a great person to train with and he is a nice guy.  This should not be about exlcusion but clarification.  This is where lineage does have importance.  Lineage gives an indication of what types of things you focus on.

Personally I train with GM Lim, Hyun Soo who was a student of Founder Choi.  I met him because I wanted to be as close to the Choi lineage as I could but the reason I continue to train is because I believe in his approach to training and his technique is the best I have seen!  Bottom line if you like your Master and you like there approach to training it does not matter what it is!

Done rambling! :asian: 

www.millersmudo.com


----------



## American HKD

Greetings,

To all esspecially Rudy.

I re-read my posts and I never said exclude anybody, with tracable links to Hapkido and I think almost all Hapkidoin can trace back to Choi or Ji. 

That would include not exclude JBL, ISS, many others I probably never heard of at this time.

However I remain fast in the fact that some people seperated from Hapkido at some point of thier own free will and re-designed and started a new tradition and that's a fact you can't change.

If you're now a 9th Dan in Kuk Sool etc. but only have a 3rd in Hapkido that's what you are a 3rd dan in Hapkido and a 9th dan in Kuk Sool. I know Dr Kimm is a 9th in SMH and 8th in Kuk Sool so that's what he is.

Peace to all my MA friends.


----------



## Black Belt FC

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> To all esspecially Rudy.
> 
> I re-read my posts and I never said exclude anybody, with tracable links to Hapkido and I think almost all Hapkidoin can trace back to Choi or Ji.
> 
> That would include not exclude JBL, ISS, many others I probably never heard of at this time.
> 
> However I remain fast in the fact that some people seperated from Hapkido at some point of thier own free will and re-designed and started a new tradition and that's a fact you can't change.
> 
> If you're now a 9th Dan in Kuk Sool etc. but only have a 3rd in Hapkido that's what you are a 3rd dan in Hapkido and a 9th dan in Kuk Sool. I know Dr Kimm is a 9th in SMH and 8th in Kuk Sool so that's what he is.
> 
> Peace to all my MA friends.


Its clear to me that this little discussion is also about trying to exclude GM Seo and members of his association and showing little regard to his rank as grandmaster. If this is the corner stone of your little project than I will have no part or support it I advise others to follow suit.

Lugo



Rank and position are not to be sought. They will come in the proper time and by the nature of the man. Those who seek rank and position for themselves are poor judges. How can a man judge himself objectively? A man who seeks rank and position will do so over the bodies or reputations of others. They are not to be trusted. Instead, one should always seek to improve oneself and then test the improvements in the fires of life. It is never the rank that makes the man. It is always the man who makes the rank. Take away the certificates and titles and we are still only what we are. Here, in the person, is the only thing that counts. The clever combatant looks to the effect of combined energy, and does not require too much from individuals. Hence his ability to pick out the right men and utilize combined energy. 



Sun Tzu


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

I know what you are saying. NOBODY actively PROMOTES "exclusivity." Its an insidious attitude that seeps into our comments like sewer gas out of a drain. 
Todd casually comments that he does not view what JR does as "traditional Hapkido" and what conclusion are we to draw? Kevin remonstrates Rudy about what he practices or HIS (Rudy's) place in the Hapkido community and what conclusion are we to draw?  I advocate for practice of traditional weapons for those who subscribe to a Mu-Do approach to the Hapkido arts and find myself chided. What conclusion are people to draw? Now, if questioned about this, Todd, Kevin, Michael or a number of other people would only say that they are--- what--- being "honest"?--- being "accurate"?-----being "authentic"? None of them is going to say that they are being "exclusive". 

I mentioned before that I that lineage IS important. It is NOT however a controlling or even a defining aspect as I see the Hapkido arts. The Koreans have never used this approach and I challenge anyone to find a case prior to the Occupation where this was an established tradition. This is a relatively new addition to the Korean martial arts and seems to proceed almost entirely from Japanese MA culture. I have yet to see an application of this attitude that is not driven by the desire to maintain racial, cultural or economic superiority. The Yon Mu Kwan and the World Hapkido Federation generally, and I personally, have not and do not support this approach. It is elitist, arrogant and counter-productive to the health of the Hapkido arts. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy: 

Whatever the differences that you and I might have between what we do and how we do it I cannot think of any situation in which I could imagine you being addressed in the matter that you have been. 

I want it represented to the folks here on this Net, including those who have been quietly reading from the shadows, that I have personally witnessed your caring, your giving and your support to Hapkido practiioners regardless of tradition or affiliation. In addition to my personal witness, there are numbers of anecdotes that reflect that same inclusive and open-minded attitude over the years. Whether from your home school in SSM, out in Oregon with Kevin Janisse, down in Texas with Kat or over in Jackson with JR and his crew, your easy-going approach to encouraging growth has been a model for many of us who are still in the developmental stages of our teaching career. I am very sorry that a string authored by me has become an occasion for derision towards you and sincerely apologize that your voluntary contributions were met with such behavior. 

Rather than risk the possibility of this behavior occuring again, I am taking this moment, as the originator of this thread, to ask the Moderator to close this thread to further discussion. 

With deepest respect and sincerity, 

Bruce


----------



## Disco

Bruce, there is no need to close the thread. What has transpired within this thread has also interplayed within many other threads in the Hapkido section. It's apparently the nature of how the waters flow. As for Rudy, OK he took a broadside from a person who has an opinion. Any of us that avail ourselves of an open forum such as this, leave the door open for such encounters. I'm sure that I have entered the thought process of a few people, but I haven't hit their trip meter yet. 

As for the crux of the problem of who's who and who's what in the world of Hapkido, that will never go away. People have developed strong emotional ties to their teachers and whatever lineage that was imbued. I went and review the so-called Hapkido family tree that was put together. Lots of people were linked back to Choi through various cross pollination efforts. Needless to say, all this did was made me scratch my head more. There were people on there that in my opinion should never be there and visa versa. There was however, one obvious deletion (we all know -   ) Now I ask this question, is there an honest to goodness "REAL" family tree for review anywhere? Oh wait...........of course there's not, for I don't think any of us actually know if there is such a thing as authentic - real - unblemished Hapkido. Case in point; I visited the web site of a direct to Choi. Looked at a video or two and saw nothing different. In fact, it could be said that I actually saw something that was contradictory to what people have listed as Choi's Hapkido. Now what I saw I liked, picture quality was poor, but non the less watchable and strong technique. Now does that statement unto itself deminish what these people are teaching and what they believe? No!, is just one persons opinion, so I/we move on the the next order of business. Through all these discussions and bickering flareups, is anyone going to change what their doing with their study of or practice of Hapkido? Again, of course not. So I say lets just keep on keeping on and whatever form of Hapkido you indulge in, take pride in it and do your best. Every person's journey only has one ticket, so you ride alone. 

To Bruce, Rudy, Kevin, Stuart, Todd, Paul, Lugo, Marc, Mike T, Hal, Holcomb, and everyone else who either join in or just look at these ongoings. May the Good Lord Bless and keep you all.

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL


----------



## shesulsa

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Rather than risk the possibility of this behavior occuring again, I am taking this moment, as the originator of this thread, to ask the Moderator to close this thread to further discussion.
> 
> With deepest respect and sincerity,
> 
> Bruce


 Mr. Simms,

 First let me say that I respect everyone's passion for their Do.  Loyalty is important, but I think we must all ask ourselves what we got into the martial arts world for and what we have gotten out of it.  I would hope that most would answer that they have become better people, have grown, expanded their knowledge and increased their sense of self-worth, because without these things, one cannot appreciate the love a warrior contains in his/her heart.

 We must tread lightly, however, because we can only get to the place we have come through not only our very own hard work, but the very hard work of our teachers as well as those that came before us.  And yet, when all is said and done, we all still have so very far to go.

 I further appreciate your desire to prevent further arguments and in-fighting.  I don't think it's any secret how I feel about the history of martial arts in Asia but if anyone reading this now is not aware, I won't repeat it here for the sake of keeping the conversation on a productive level.

 We KMAists need to heal.  If we would forward the cause of keeping the legends of the Korean Martial Arts alive in America, we all must eat some humble pie, shake hands, and reunite as a family so we can move forward.

 As a moderator of this forum, I don't see a reason yet, according to the rules and regulations of MT, to close this thread.

 Perhaps we can all catch our breath, re-read the rules and regs and remind ourselves why they are in place ... why we recite our creeds, why we demonstrate respect in the ways we do, why we find it so vital to care for each other and talk with each other and train together even when it sometimes means putting the hurt on.

 I would ask, how can we create a complete family tree of hapkido without carrying forward the dogma and, therefore, stigma of the KMA?  Can we put our differences behind us and accept that we each are traveling the same path but with different gear?  There is no way to do this without polite, respectful discussion and consideration.

 I would further ask who is willing to form a historical records society which, rather than setting standards or taking sides, simply records Dan lineage in KMA?  How would that group go about research and verification?  I wonder if this is possible to do going back beyond a certain point.  But perhaps it could be started?

 Meantime, let's take some time to reflect on how to move forward as a family, rather than competing entities.

 Happy Holidays to all.

 Georgia


----------



## American HKD

Black Belt FC said:
			
		

> Its clear to me that this little discussion is also about trying to exclude GM Seo and members of his association and showing little regard to his rank as grandmaster. If this is the corner stone of your little project than I will have no part or support it I advise others to follow suit.
> 
> Lugo
> 
> 
> 
> Rank and position are not to be sought. They will come in the proper time and by the nature of the man. Those who seek rank and position for themselves are poor judges. How can a man judge himself objectively? A man who seeks rank and position will do so over the bodies or reputations of others. They are not to be trusted. Instead, one should always seek to improve oneself and then test the improvements in the fires of life. It is never the rank that makes the man. It is always the man who makes the rank. Take away the certificates and titles and we are still only what we are. Here, in the person, is the only thing that counts. The clever combatant looks to the effect of combined energy, and does not require too much from individuals. Hence his ability to pick out the right men and utilize combined energy.
> 
> 
> 
> Sun Tzu


Dear Lugo

YOUR TOTALLY WRONG! I'm not excluding Master Seo he did it himself when he left Hapkido and made Kuk Sool Won. I did'nt do it!

That does'nt mean I don't respect him or you in any way. I personally believe Kuk Sool is a sister Art to Hapkido and we can easily work together and train together but our origins are slightly different as is the Art.

We don't have forms, we don't claim an chinese origins and some weapons according to Rudy, but we have much in common from Choi Yong Sool.

It's always been very simple people don't want to hear it for some reason.


----------



## American HKD

Dear Bruce,

I never said anything that's not true here or tried to exclude anybody. Some people are threatened by simple facts. 

Rudy feels all the Hapkido derivitives are the same Art that's Ok, but when asked if he'll cross rank a Sin Moo person he said no way. 
Why not if it's all the same Art? Because he really feels there's a difference deep inside.

Lugo thinks I want to exclude him which I don't. The founder of the KS or HRD did it themselves, I had nothing to do with it.

Folks why not be intellectually honest here. I always knew since I was a guppie 20 years ago that all these Arts are the same. Some people want to lead not follow so that made thier own business/Art if you will.

I really don't care just tell the truth.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

I think you are being inaccurate in drawing your conclusions. Agreeing that all arts are the same is NOT the same as giving ones' own affirmation regarding a persons' competence. I routinely teach folks from a variety of backgrounds--- every semester. When I do I make it clear that I am not grading them regarding Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido. I am grading their performance vis. Yon Mu Kwan material that I present to them. As a separate issue, I will help people who are interested in accruing mat hours for YMK/WHF testing but that is a different matter. Likewise, when I teach a seminar my goal is not to recruit new members to the YMK or WHF. My goal is to bring people out of the best part of themselves and the medium I use is YMK Hapkido. 

I flatter myself a reasonably competent Hapkido practitioner and I have attended a few of Rudys' classes. He has also given me paper attesting to my presence and participation. I have no illusions that I rate some competency in the art that he teaches, do not ask him for that, nor has he pressed such upon me. I have paper that attests to the fact that I participated in an activity and that is that. 

If the moderator sees no reason to close this thread, I have no reason to object. However I think we need to make something very clear to each other or this string is going to go no-where. 

As far as I know everyone on here DOES something. Maybe theres' different names and opinions, but everyone seems to know that they are DOING something. We keep getting into trouble when someone says that they DO something and, causal to that, they then state that they ARE something. This only gets worse when the dynamic is applied to someone else, to wit: they DID X; ERGO they ARE X.  Now I may not be the sharpest knife in the kitchen drawer, but I know enough that if a person can not refrain from confusing what a person DOES with what they ARE, all we have here is a venue for tossing judgements back and forth.         Not that you can't do that. Its just not something I have any interest in so you can do it without me. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## whalen

When I left this forum a while ago little remarks were made about " Wow how we no longer need a moderator since certain individuals have left. "things change REAL quick . Has anyone tried just plain training instead complaining and worrying about who is and who isn't I Know it might be a new concept for some but your Hapkido will improve.

Do you think an attacker cares what your linage is ? The Hospital ride for him is the same distance.

 I consider Master Timmerman my friend and I am proud to do so. He leads by example, not only on the KMA front i have talked with him about personal issues and he would give me fatherly advise an not try to force an opinion on you.

Now on another note it is not only Rudy that would not except Sin -moo people. So Stu Don't GO THERE.......  You have my number if I have to explain I will.

I feel J.R and Rudy are doing the right thing promoting the KMA and are indeed Hapkido.....Has anyone invited J.R West here so he can have the right to explain or is better to just insinuate behind his Back ?

Something else, He Young kimm  was the president of the American Hapkido Association back in the early seventies around 70-73 Before most of you were in Hapkido And before the name was used by Mike W.

At that time their was no Kuk-sool in the U.S  . In the Mid seventies when i was in Korea during the first of my 9 visits . There were  Hapkido Kuk sul Kwan Dojangs that were separate from kuk sul won and were members of the Kidohae the first Hapkido Association that Choi founded

Hal Whalen


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> I think you are being inaccurate in drawing your conclusions. Agreeing that all arts are the same is NOT the same as giving ones' own affirmation regarding a persons' competence. I routinely teach folks from a variety of backgrounds--- every semester. When I do I make it clear that I am not grading them regarding Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido. I am grading their performance vis. Yon Mu Kwan material that I present to them. As a separate issue, I will help people who are interested in accruing mat hours for YMK/WHF testing but that is a different matter. Likewise, when I teach a seminar my goal is not to recruit new members to the YMK or WHF. My goal is to bring people out of the best part of themselves and the medium I use is YMK Hapkido.
> 
> I flatter myself a reasonably competent Hapkido practitioner and I have attended a few of Rudys' classes. He has also given me paper attesting to my presence and participation. I have no illusions that I rate some competency in the art that he teaches, do not ask him for that, nor has he pressed such upon me. I have paper that attests to the fact that I participated in an activity and that is that.
> 
> If the moderator sees no reason to close this thread, I have no reason to object. However I think we need to make something very clear to each other or this string is going to go no-where.
> 
> As far as I know everyone on here DOES something. Maybe theres' different names and opinions, but everyone seems to know that they are DOING something. We keep getting into trouble when someone says that they DO something and, causal to that, they then state that they ARE something. This only gets worse when the dynamic is applied to someone else, to wit: they DID X; ERGO they ARE X. Now I may not be the sharpest knife in the kitchen drawer, but I know enough that if a person can not refrain from confusing what a person DOES with what they ARE, all we have here is a venue for tossing judgements back and forth. Not that you can't do that. Its just not something I have any interest in so you can do it without me. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

Ok to clarify. 

The HKD derivitive systems or sister Arts are not the same but are very closely related. Is that better?

Lastly why does anyone think I'm judging because I have a veiw point that's different from thiers? I just don't see the smallness of that?

I did'nt create these sister arts thier founders did, Why to "Seperately identify themselves" as something other than Hapkido.

What's the issue here please tell me?


----------



## shesulsa

American HKD said:
			
		

> What's the issue here, please tell me?


 Okay, I'm going to step in right now and respond to you before this goes on much further.

 I think the first problem is that you seem to toss out an accusation then backpedal as soon as it's debunked. 

 The second problem is that first you say standards are in order as are a list of people who are active and have provem themselves to be "authentic" Hapkido, yet you later state that a collection of techniques is not important, rather lineage IS, then refer to tossing out folks who have cropped out on their own, then speak again of acknowledging them.

 Then you get angry and personal and wonder what the smallness is in that.

 You have been very firm with certain members on this board and I would like to see a martial artist take more responsibility for their opinions than that and honor the respect KMA artists command.  That is coming from me as a member, not a moderator.

 You are sending mixed messages.  So I am going to put a question to you that requires a choice between one or the other, not creative prose as is your habit.

 Question:

 Is your design to:

 A) record a lineage or family tree which will delineate who received what ranking from whom when?

 or

 B) put forth a laundry list of hyungs, techniques, kicks, combinations and various other skills required to demonstrate the skills required for !st Dan Hapkido?

 Just answer A or B, please.


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm going to step in right now and respond to you before this goes on much further.
> 
> I think the first problem is that you seem to toss out an accusation then backpedal as soon as it's debunked.
> 
> The second problem is that first you say standards are in order as are a list of people who are active and have provem themselves to be "authentic" Hapkido, yet you later state that a collection of techniques is not important, rather lineage IS, then refer to tossing out folks who have cropped out on their own, then speak again of acknowledging them.
> 
> Then you get angry and personal and wonder what the smallness is in that.
> 
> You have been very firm with certain members on this board and I would like to see a martial artist take more responsibility for their opinions than that and honor the respect KMA artists command. That is coming from me as a member, not a moderator.
> 
> You are sending mixed messages. So I am going to put a question to you that requires a choice between one or the other, not creative prose as is your habit.
> 
> Question:
> 
> Is your design to:
> 
> A) record a lineage or family tree which will delineate who received what ranking from whom when?
> 
> or
> 
> B) put forth a laundry list of hyungs, techniques, kicks, combinations and various other skills required to demonstrate the skills required for !st Dan Hapkido?
> 
> Just answer A or B, please.


Georgia,

I will answer A & B but first.

1. I was'nt backpedleing just explaining mis-interpetations by people who did'nt like what I said. 
2. I don't get angry just a little annoyed.
3. Kevin, Bruce, Disco and Todd agreed for the most part.
4. Rudy and Lugo did'nt. 
5. It looks as if more people agreed here than disagree.

As for your question 

I orignally proposed "A"


----------



## shesulsa

Very good, then.  I've taken the liberty of adding an anonymous poll to this thread.  The end date is posted above the poll.  I will publish the results once it is closed.


----------



## iron_ox

whalen said:
			
		

> I feel J.R and Rudy are doing the right thing promoting the KMA and are indeed Hapkido.....Has anyone invited J.R West here so he can have the right to explain or is better to just insinuate behind his Back ?



Excuse me, but it was Rudy who brought J.R. West into this.

Hello all,

It is always intersting to me how the discussion about lineage always becomes one of "what I can do on the mat is and what he can do on the mat is...".  Why is that?  Not one comment was brought up deriding anyone's abilities in terms of their teaching or training - but for some reason this ALWAYS seems to be the final issue for people that cannot discuss lineage without undo emotion - hey, even I am not above getting a little angry.

This seems such a simple matter, not one to get so wound up from.  

Bruce,  sorry if you felt I was a little direct to Rudy - did you read his post?  Not exactly flattering stuff for some of us...

I still think that we are doing GREAT without heavy moderation (with all due respect Georgia, thank you for your input).  People, we are MARTIAL ARTISTS - cut from different cloth than most - we deal with defending ourselves and others and our honor - so we might get abrasive - if people cannot handle discussion and won't read posts carefully and jump to conclusions, maybe a discussion board about the qualities of kittens is better suited for them.  But I see nothing wrong with what has gone on, stuff given and taken - good life lessons here.

Bruce's original intent was a discussion about a physical standard by which KMA's could be grouped as Hapkido.  I personally do not believe in this, as I see Hapkido in the Choi/Ji vain only - but he and I can still discuss our differences with some veal.  

The idea of lineage really seems to worry some people.  Shame really, because it is a facinating subject.  You can, as your perogotive, feel defined by what you do or what you are, I do not feel that Hapkido is just "what you do" but also who you are.  If the only reason we study is not a full understanding of what it is we are doing, including the heritage of what we are doing, then it is on a very simple level correct that an attacker does not care.  But, if this is the case, handgun training is quick and effective - and will stop any attacker.  I don't train just to ward off a phantom menace, but for the value and frankly the fun that learning a complete art, lineage included.


----------



## iron_ox

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Just answer A or B, please.




Yeah, good job Stuart, I picked "A" as well!


----------



## American HKD

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Very good, then. I've taken the liberty of adding an anonymous poll to this thread. The end date is posted above the poll. I will publish the results once it is closed.


Georgia

If you want to take a poll at least do it with with people who have some substantial rank in HKD, KS, and HRD to help ensure they have an understanding of the complexities of the issues at hand and the many veiw points comming from each camp.

Myself, Bruce, Rudy, Todd, Kevin, and Lugo are all Instructors with 20 years or more in the Korean Arts. I did'nt see many guppies participating in our discussion so you poll could be flawed from the outset.

Also Georgia each Instructor even those from the same camp can each required different rank requirements. My Master Ji Han Jae mainly cares about the principles of the techniques not that each Instructor has to teach the same exact technique FWIW

Your questions are not set up right IMHO and mean very little.

I will post different question to consider


----------



## American HKD

*There should be a Hapkido database to (multiple answers allowed):*

1. Record a Database with proof of lineage only - who received rank from whom - regardless of current affiliation 

2. Don't Record database of proof of lineage only - who received rank from whom - regardless of current affiliation 
3. Record active lineage - list only those dans who are actively teaching Hapkido

4. Don't Record active lineage - list only those dans who are actively teaching Hapkido

Lastly the techniques and foundations of Hapkido were already set forth from the Founder Choi Young Sool & Ji Han Jae. If you really learned Hapkido you'll know them if not you don't. Nobody can set them up for everybody.


----------



## glad2bhere

"...... Has anyone tried just plain training instead complaining and worrying about who is and who isn't I Know it might be a new concept for some but your Hapkido will improve......" 

Yes. I for one did this for a good many years. I kept my mouth shut. I didn't ask questions. I ponied-up my tuition whenever it was due. I don't know what other peoples experience has been or if they have done the same thing. I can tell you that the result I experienced was that my understanding of the Korean martial arts generally, and Hapkido specifically, rapidly took on whatever limitations my teacher had. It was not until I met GM Myung and began to understand what my responsibilities to the KMA community, and myself, are that I stopped doing all the taking and started giving back. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that at face value it sounds very laudable to "stopping talking; start training" and if thats what you believe don't let the door hit you on the butt. In the meantime the "stop talking; start training" philosophy as I have seen it has allowed a lot of leaders to keep the Hapkido arts stagnant and splintered where other arts have moved ahead. Had I done this my understanding of Hapkido arts would be bound by what my teachers knew and nothing more. Maybe thats the way you want the Hapkido community, but not me. 

".....Do you think an attacker cares what your linage is ? The Hospital ride for him is the same distance....." 

Is that all you think Hapkido is about---?  Attacker this? Fight-fight-that? Maybe YOUR Hapkido is all about that and thats fine for you if it is. Mine isn't. Some people care about lineage. Noone says you have to. I don't know what the attacker thinks and could care less. I am sure the feelings are mutual. Don't want to talk about lineage? Don't. Not interested in what people have in common versus how they are different?  Fine. Guess if you are so disinterested I'm wondering why you needed to pipe-up. 


Stuart: 

I think you have gone to the well once too often. Someone just did you a favor and your first response was not even a "thank you" but to advise the moderator where their gift fell short of your expectations. 

To put it bluntly, I am beginning to question your motives. You have on a few occasions, now, raised the matter of people working together. What I have seen is that you consistently sabotage or object on some pretext when people do this. Rereading your many posts I think there is a hidden agenda to your contributions. I think you are making an arguement for authenticating a Hapkido career made up of moving from one experience to another. Now you are the proud owner of a "patchwork quilt" and are wondering where to go now. You are reaching around making a case that your experience is as valid in the Hapkido arts as everyone elses and maybe it is and maybe it isn't. What I CAN say is that you don't seem to be succeeding selling your position here and you are definitely not dealing well with that lack of success. 

"......If you really learned Hapkido you'll know them if not you don't. Nobody can set them up for everybody......" 

I am likewise convinced that you are purposely and repreatedly misrepresenting the purpose of a minimal standard. On this string along I have, no less than five times, stated that the purpose of a minimal standard is to facilitate communication. (Pg. 1 ".....I think we can identify a simple set of basic skills that a person need have from cross-referencing the material of existing systems and identifying commonalities.") In contradiction, you have repeatedly made statements suggesting that individuals can be somehow compelled this way or that using such a standard when you know this is not the intent. I beleive you undrstand the real purpose of this thread. If after 17 pages of posts you have NOT understood the purpose of this thread and have not asked for clarification, I can only conclude that you are not only willfully sabotaging your own efforts but willfully contributing to the failure of others' discussion. 

If your last post was honest and you sincerely mean "A" then lets get on with it. What the heck are you waiting for? Whats with all of this singing and dancing? Are you gonna do it or not? If yes, the focus of THIS thread is a minimal standard. Speak to that and tell us how this is going to help. If not would you kindly refrain from hi-jacking the string, please? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Kumbajah

I thought this thread was about minimum standards- " here is a set of basic techniques - now what will we all agree to call them."  There was never any intention of offering rank or legitimizing someone saying what they do is Hapkido. It is an academic endeavor. So we who correspond on this list and gather occasionally could be on the same page technically and linguistically. 

Linage is valid only to the point  if you offer it as validation. "I know what I do is Hapkido because I received my Dahns from Y who learned from X etc." There are some that claim to teach Hapkido that aren't. Guess what? - you can't stop them. Have you ever seen a TKD dojang that didn't claim to teach "some Hapkido"? The only thing that you can do is be an example of what "true" Hapkido is. If people are truly interested they will seek you and others like you out. Ranks have been bought and sold there is no guarantee that they are true valid evaluation of knowledge and skill. Even Choi and Ji have let some through the cracks. These are men not mudo gods. 

FWIW - Choi- Ji Han Jae - KIm Jin Pal - Me. Just incase the argument "the only people that don't care about linage are those that don't have it" is thrown out again. 

This is getting tiresome. 

Brian


----------



## glad2bhere

Have Faith, Brian.  The next post is going to step over the line into concepts and constructs. I have been having difficulty not so much with identifying and defining these but making sure that the Korean equivalent is accurate. No small feat, that.  FWIW. 

BTW: I have not heard from anyone about the list of posted material under "Minimal Standards" on my website. Nobody says I have stopped accepting in-put.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

Bruce,

My motives are the same as m_y_ original post and that was to consider a verified Hapkido database, that seemed to offended a couple of people except Kevin, Todd, Disco, and you.

When Rudy didn't like it because he claimed it was exclusionary you seemed to change your mind pretty fast and take the PC route.

Political correctness has gotten the best of you it seems.

Either you feel it's a worthwhile or not.

That's my motive.


----------



## Kumbajah

Didn't you start a thread on this - why hijack this one?

There are existing hapkido data bases. Hapkido-info.net, JR has his schools on his site, Hal has the North American KHF on his site, Rudy has his, Fabian his and MartialArtsResource.com/Ron Baine, etc ad nauseam. There are lineage charts as well. The web is a font of information. 

<whine>"but they're not validated"</whine> Who's going to say who's legit? If its a school - go see. Compare with other schools. Only one? Guess thats your only option wuddayagunna do? If its a person ask around. Emails telephone etc. Come on  there was a little tiff here about legitamacy. How are you going to filter though the whole of the USA? 

Forgive me if Ive offended the Grand Poo Bah of the Hapkido Police.


----------



## glad2bhere

That PC label seems to be getting thrown around pretty good. I am beginning to wonder what your operational definition for the term is. 

I sent you my information. That was pretty pro-active and supportive. What more you want you will have to make known. In the meantime, are you going to do anything or not? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Black Belt FC

American HKD said:
			
		

> Dear Lugo
> 
> YOUR TOTALLY WRONG! I'm not excluding Master Seo he did it himself when he left Hapkido and made Kuk Sool Won. I did'nt do it!
> 
> That does'nt mean I don't respect him or you in any way. I personally believe Kuk Sool is a sister Art to Hapkido and we can easily work together and train together but our origins are slightly different as is the Art.
> 
> We don't have forms, we don't claim an chinese origins and some weapons according to Rudy, but we have much in common from Choi Yong Sool.
> 
> It's always been very simple people don't want to hear it for some reason.


Master Stuart,



Thank you for clarifying your intentions and recognizing that were all part of the same family. Youre right that the curriculum techniques from one branch to another are different but similar in many ways. A part from instructing and training in Hapkido I have a group of instructors that I train with that do a form of Aiki JuJitsu, they recognized my rank since they say well come from the same linage and family. In fact these guys swear that Im really teaching their form of Jujitsu with alterations, while some Hapkido groups swear that Im teaching Jujitsu. Go figure. The founder and Hapkido go back to Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, were link by our common heritage from which most of the Hapkido techniques flow. 


If a standard is to be made then all groups that are willing to partake should be included and accepted, thats my only discord. 


Warmest Regards

Lugo


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> That PC label seems to be getting thrown around pretty good. I am beginning to wonder what your operational definition for the term is.
> 
> I sent you my information. That was pretty pro-active and supportive. What more you want you will have to make known. In the meantime, are you going to do anything or not?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce 

I don't want to debate what PC is or isn't call me on the phone if you'd like and we can talk a bit or I'll call you if you Private me your number.

As I posted early on I asked for help from interested people to see if this idea 

#1. Had merit for Instructors & all dan ranks alike
#2. Would help the students that are being sold a bill of goods 
#3. Would clarify linage of who's who.

Unfortunatly all it did was make people argue. 

I don't know what I will do with the idea at this point if this type of reaction is what I'll get if I went to the next level and started a real online Database.

People aren't ready to accept thier own backgrounds especially if me or someone else catagorizes them in a way they don't like. So you have to say what people want to hear BTW that's what I mean by PC in this case.


----------



## American HKD

Black Belt FC said:
			
		

> Master Stuart,
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for clarifying your intentions and recognizing that were all part of the same family. Youre right that the curriculum techniques from one branch to another are different but similar in many ways. A part from instructing and training in Hapkido I have a group of instructors that I train with that do a form of Aiki JuJitsu, they recognized my rank since they say well come from the same linage and family. In fact these guys swear that Im really teaching their form of Jujitsu with alterations, while some Hapkido groups swear that Im teaching Jujitsu. Go figure. The founder and Hapkido go back to Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, were link by our common heritage from which most of the Hapkido techniques flow.
> 
> 
> If a standard is to be made then all groups that are willing to partake should be included and accepted, thats my only discord.
> 
> 
> Warmest Regards
> 
> 
> 
> Lugo


 
Thanks for undestanding my point.


----------



## Disco

Stuart, I say continue on with the database. People that have been around for awhile know where they stand or at least they should. The time for "PC" is long gone (How I do hate that term and what it entails). The old saying, "if you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen" should be the disclaimer. Most if not all of the disagreements have already been aired here and on other sites, so nothing new should leap out at folks. If something new should happen to present itself, than all the better. As I said before, whatever transpires will not affect what many people are doing and will continue to do. For some, it may lead to an enlightenment that may be beneficial in the long run.


----------



## Master Todd Miller

Stuart,

I say what you are trying to do has merit.  It seems that some are just not willing to look at the points you and Kevin have made!  No one has said that certain techniques do not work if your liniage is not there.  Part of the problem with Hapkido these days are that if you do a few joint locks you are Hapkido!  This is just crazy and not benneficial to anyone except those that have somthing to hide.

Just some thoughts.

www.millersmudo.com


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Todd: 

".....Part of the problem with Hapkido these days are that if you do a few joint locks you are Hapkido! This is just crazy and not benneficial to anyone except those that have somthing to hide......" 

I can't fault anything you wrote. What I think is that the problem does not stop there. Like spilling a glass of milk, there is the original mess--- and then there is the extended mess where the spilled milk runs across the table, down onto the floor, over papers and the like. Its not just that people do a few techniques and call it "Hapkido". Rather, I think its the image people build up about themselves. When I think of a number of people in the Hapkido leadership all I can remember is the wealth of mis-information they circulated about themselves---- or by extension about others. Furthermore that image is constantly in flux. When I was contacting people off-line to find out where they wanted to be in the lineage ("family tree") that I work on the most common response was a series of names and dates--- and a strong desire NOT to be pidgeon-holed in any one organization or with any one person. 

Now, I bet people are wondering why I am pursuing this when the title of this string is "minimal standards".  Well, the fact is that this same very "elastic" or "plastic" approach to ones own art causes no-end of problems in trying to identify a catelogue of basic Hapkido information. If people are constantly changing, "in flux" if you will, with their Hapkido and its identity, well no wonder they don't want a single set of terms by which to communicate!! Its a kind of need to be "all things to all people" (THERE'S some 'PC' fer ya, Kevin!! :mp5: ). 

So, lets say that right now, December 2004, we adapt a lineage, a criteria that characterizes Hapkido. What happens in 5 months when people have moved on to some other teacher? I ask because I believe THESE are more typical of the folks we have in the Hapkido community than people like myself who have stuck with a particular person for a good many years.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## jfarnsworth

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jason Farnsworth
-MT Moderator-*


----------



## Paul B

> So, lets say that right now, December 2004, we adapt a lineage, a criteria that characterizes Hapkido. What happens in 5 months when people have moved on to some other teacher?


Hi Bruce,

The criteria won't change,it is what it is,right? So.. how is that affected by people who skip around? Those type of people probably don't care anyway about criteria. The lineage part is something that will probably change time and again,with new teachers being added,as in my case,and let's face it,it's hard for some people to be a conformist in an art full of individualists! 

 I personally would rather find a teacher and stick with him/her as you have done,but there will always be circumstances such as mine...shame.


----------



## kwanjang

American HKD said:
			
		

> ...Rudy feels all the Hapkido derivitives are the same Art that's Ok, but when asked if he'll cross rank a Sin Moo person he said no way.
> Why not if it's all the same Art? Because he really feels there's a difference deep inside....



Hello Stuart:
I would not cross rank ANYONE from ANY art.  I simply do not believe that cross ranking is within my mandate that is all.  I LOOK at people who want rank from me OR I supply a person with an NKMAA certificate that denotes what he has earned in a particular Korean art from a reputable organization.  I do not push anything on anyone, but I WILL always try to help people such as Paul by providing a continuing "home" for them if their original Instructor disappears. 

Some people apparently believe that this means that I am after money.  Bruce, and many others, will testify that I NEVER asked for ANY money.  I will not even bother to answer Kevin's post.  My reputation allows me to forego such rantings.  Stuart, you and I have differences of opinion; however, we both serve the Korean martial arts community by remaining civil while we disagree... I think that is a good start

BTW, sorry it took so long to get back posting.  I don't know if anyone else has problems with this forum.  It is not for lack of trying, but I am having a hard time getting on the last few weeks.


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## kwanjang

Stuart writes: "When I started my own Alarm Company and left my former employer even though I learned my craft from them I became thier Competetion. I no longer represent them and now represent my own business affairs. I can't market myself as them anymore because I'm not part of them anymore, that was the past."

Hello Stuart.  this is a great way to illustrate just what I mean by my posts.  You started a new company, and you do NOT use your former companies name etc. However, you ARE in the same business... right???  You DO the essentially the same thing as you used to do in your former employer's company right???

This is exactly what I mean by my posts, but probably I may not say it the right way.  My Instructor did the same thing, he began his own business and used a different name; however, he essentially teaches the same thing as he learned.

Now, we can say that he no longer teaches Hap Ki Do, but we ALL know that when Bruce gets his minimum standards down on paper my students will be able to do everything on his list.  Is this then NOT Hap Ki Do, because my Instructor started his own company so to speak????  Like you started your company, many martial artists have such strong personalities that they MUST to start their own thing in order to fulfil their drive to do things their way.  Because of ethics and TMs, they CAN'T call it the same thing, but they sure as heck teach the same thing (albeit with their own personal flair).  I hope your example allowed me to explain myself a bit better.

BTW, thanks Hal and Bruce for your comments.  To everyone on the forum, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.


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## iron_ox

I can fully understand why the there is a group of people that want to keep the Hapkido community divided and ignorant of the reality that the art is the well spring of Choi, Yong Sul.  

Yes, it is *they* that wish to continue to divide that community - by blaming Korean nationals, politics, business name changes(?), and other such nonsense, while continuing to say that whatever they teach is Hapkido - despite clear evidence to the contrary.  This is simple self preservation of a financial standing - if the community comes together under a single banner, or single belief in a unified lineage, these people lose out big time - so it is only natural that they will continue to say that those of us that can demonstrate a single lineage are bogus if they are not included - no inclusion to them obviously means no money.

Georgia, you mentioned that we should be held accountable to a higher standard of action because we are martial artists and to a certain extent I agree - but when someone of supposedly high rank makes unwarranted personal attacks clearly you can see the need to respond.

Now, if we take a step back here.  If a westerner, with a third dan in an art starts his own thing, he may be looked at with some sceptisicm, but if he years later starts to hand out rank in his original style that far exceeds his original rank - he would be ridiculed.  The dan ranking system is sort of univesal for most martial arts and the basic code is the same - ranking cannot exceed (at most) one rank below your own.  This has been sort of an unofficial standard across the board - so, back to the example, if the westerner has say a third dan, and hands out 9th dans, people have a natural right to be leary of this standard.  So, why is that not the case for non-westerners?

I'm not going to level personal accusations at anyone. I got overzelous in responding to accusations from someone terrified of losing a financial stake in their livelihood.  I should have known that that was wasted breath.  Instead, I will retrain my focus on the issues - like where people stand, and on peoples standing in HAPKIDO - and leave the personal insults and accusations for lesser men.


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## shesulsa

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Georgia, you mentioned that we should be held accountable to a higher standard of action because we are martial artists and to a certain extent I agree - but when someone of supposedly high rank makes unwarranted personal attacks clearly you can see the need to respond.


 I refer you to the little triangle with the exclamation point inside at the right side top of each post (except your own).  This is what we call the RTM feature.  If you feel someone has personally attacked you or someone else in violation of the rules of posting on this site, please click it and Report The Message and let the Mods, SuperMods and Admin handle issues you find out of line for these fora.

 This feature accomplishes much.  For one thing, it gives me and Jason something to do.  For another, any user can report any message they think is out of line or not in keeping with our sniping policy or just plain old offensive.  Finally, it alerts the powers that be so that the matter can be addressed and you don't have to follow the same pattern and endanger yourself to similar disciplinary action as well, provided your posts are in keeping with our rules and regs.

 Good luck.


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## iron_ox

Thanks Georgia.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy: 

Thank you for your Xmas wish--- and for your post. I want to use it to underscore in the clearest terms the purpose of a Minimal Standard. 

"......Now, we can say that he no longer teaches Hap Ki Do, but we ALL know that when Bruce gets his minimum standards down on paper my students will be able to do everything on his list. Is this then NOT Hap Ki Do, because my Instructor started his own company so to speak???? Like you started your company, many martial artists have such strong personalities that they MUST to start their own thing in order to fulfil their drive to do things their way. Because of ethics and TMs, they CAN'T call it the same thing, but they sure as heck teach the same thing (albeit with their own personal flair). I hope your example allowed me to explain myself a bit better......" 

Fact is that whether or not your students could do everything on the list or not---- I think we all know that they would be able to ----, that is NOT the purpose of such a standard. 

As we have all seen from this string alone, there is very little talk of technical aspects but a whole lot of wind about who is authentic and who is not and why. I point out again that people talk like this not because it is necessary, but because we are unable to speak conveniently about anything of greater depth. We have no Koreans contributing here because we have no common language through which we can share with them. We do not contribute on THEIR NEts because we have no common language with which to share with them! I see no discussions of concepts or constructs upon which yu sool and hapki-yu-sool are based. What I DO see is a lot of "I do REAL Hapkido, and you don't because......". No depth. No technical discussion; just opinions and emotion back and forth. And when someone like me comes along and calls people on their superficial posts, or paints them into a corner, the response is something like, "well, talks cheap--- just train."  No wonder Hapkido never develops beyond the yu-sool level! Know what "I" have noticed, Rudy? I have noticed that when "I" press people to be a little more disclosing about their motives, or to go into much greater depth even about their opinions, even THOSE conversations dry-up. So what do we have here, I wonder? Are we to discuss Hapkido as long as it never approximates anything more meaningful than opinion--- and shallow opinion at that? We can do something different if we really want to, but I am very disappointed at what I see as near-resistance to taking a different road than those who came before us.  Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang

Georgia:
It might be prudent to place the two posts that started Kevin's ranting side by side, so it can clearly show that my comments were in no way insulting to the forum or to the parties involved.  I simply asked some pointed questions about Stuart's attempt to create an organization that in the opinion of several people will further divide Hap Ki Do, and I did so because he had asked for our help in creating this organization. IMHO, my questions had not been answered clearly, and I for one am/was still not sure what Stuart is trying to do and I am not alone in that.

It is my firm belief that the manner proposed by Kevin (and to a degree Stuart) will damage Hap Ki Do rather than unite it, and I could/would NOT support that.  I had hoped that by pointing this out the parties might alter their ways in order to allow for more unity. I believe that Stuart might see my point, but I am also quite sure that Kevin will not.  So, there is an ongoing drive on my part to get a clear decision on what Stuart wants to do before I can throw my help behind him.  Since it is Stuarts idea we are talking about, I thought it prudent to let him know my feeling.

From what I have read in this thread, the original intent by Bruce was to provide those who practice Hap Ki Do a platform for improved communication by creating a minimum standard.  I have already supported him by sending my curriculum.  My helping him in his efforts is clearly NOT the action of someone who is only interested in furthering his own organization (NKMAA) in order to make money as Kevin suggests in a number of posts he makes.  

FWIW, many people here KNOW that I turn away people who ask me for certification in Hap Ki Do if I believe that their curriculum or standards do not meet the generally accepted criteria.  In fact, I recently turned away a lucrative offer that was later picked up by someone who directly studies under GM Ji.  Apparently this person felt that the group in question DID teach Hap Ki Do.  My turning this group away while KNOWING they would be certified by this person anyway is again not the action of someone who (according to Kevin) is more interested in making money than promoting Hap Ki Do.

If asking what the agenda of Kevin and Stuart is will be regarded as a personal attack... I am guilty, and for that I do not apologize because some of the folks here DO want to know where this new organization is heading.  How else are we to know if we should or should not support it as Stuart had asked.  I do not believe I made any comments that were not directly related to clearing up the direction of the attempt to create whatever it is that is being discussed here, and I do not believe my post warranted the allegations that I am a money hungry fraud who does not care about Hap Ki Do.  

As far as Kevin's claim he does not call me a fraud, I suggest that telling folks on this forum that I (and anyone else who does not have direct lineage to Choi) do NOT teach Hap Ki Do amounts to the same thing.  Some of the most prominent Hap Ki Do people in the world recognize and agree that I indeed DO teach Hap Ki Do, and to have Kevin state publicly that I do not is to me the same as calling me a fraud and the folks who support my claim liars.  

It is clear that SOME of the parties want to provide help, but another group is more interested in documenting direct lineage (and claiming that this is the ONLY group teaching Hap Ki Do) instead of uniting Hap ki Do practitioners.  These issues should not be regarded as the same, and that is what I am advocating.  Perhaps a different thread for each of these goals will prevent problems, because I would have absolutely nothing to say in a thread which promotes lineage with Choi, it is simply none of my business.  However, I will continue to strive for unity and brotherhood in Hap Ki Do, and that is the group I wish to support.  

At this point in time, I believe the original attempt by Bruce to create a minimum standard has evolved into two separate issues instead.  1.  Minimum standards by Bruce.  2. A direct Choi lineage family tree that suggests that only THIS group practices Hap Ki Do by Stuart.  

My posts are simply an attempt to provide thoughts for the folks who sit on the sidelines wondering whom they should support, and I will continue to do so without slandering anyone.  I appreciate any moderator's efforts to make sure I do not overstep my goal, and I suggest you read again the two posts in question to see where things went wrong.


----------



## kwanjang

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Rudy:
> 
> Thank you for your Xmas wish--- and for your post. I want to use it to underscore in the clearest terms the purpose of a Minimal Standard.
> 
> "......Now, we can say that he no longer teaches Hap Ki Do, but we ALL know that when Bruce gets his minimum standards down on paper my students will be able to do everything on his list. Is this then NOT Hap Ki Do, because my Instructor started his own company so to speak???? Like you started your company, many martial artists have such strong personalities that they MUST to start their own thing in order to fulfil their drive to do things their way. Because of ethics and TMs, they CAN'T call it the same thing, but they sure as heck teach the same thing (albeit with their own personal flair). I hope your example allowed me to explain myself a bit better......"
> 
> Fact is that whether or not your students could do everything on the list or not---- I think we all know that they would be able to ----, that is NOT the purpose of such a standard.
> 
> As we have all seen from this string alone, there is very little talk of technical aspects but a whole lot of wind about who is authentic and who is not and why. I point out again that people talk like this not because it is necessary, but because we are unable to speak conveniently about anything of greater depth. We have no Koreans contributing here because we have no common language through which we can share with them. We do not contribute on THEIR NEts because we have no common language with which to share with them! I see no discussions of concepts or constructs upon which yu sool and hapki-yu-sool are based. What I DO see is a lot of "I do REAL Hapkido, and you don't because......". No depth. No technical discussion; just opinions and emotion back and forth. And when someone like me comes along and calls people on their superficial posts, or paints them into a corner, the response is something like, "well, talks cheap--- just train."  No wonder Hapkido never develops beyond the yu-sool level! Know what "I" have noticed, Rudy? I have noticed that when "I" press people to be a little more disclosing about their motives, or to go into much greater depth even about their opinions, even THOSE conversations dry-up. So what do we have here, I wonder? Are we to discuss Hapkido as long as it never approximates anything more meaningful than opinion--- and shallow opinion at that? We can do something different if we really want to, but I am very disappointed at what I see as near-resistance to taking a different road than those who came before us.  Thoughts?  Comments?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Hello Bruce:
Thanks for making your position VERY clear; however, I have a sneaky suspicion that your minimum standards will be used by scores of people to
"decide" who or who does not teach Hap Ki Do despite your intent.  Yet, I do hope that it will also provide for more meaningful discussions, and with that hope I will continue to support your efforts.  I am essentially a positive person, so we forge ahead despite some misgivings lol.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy, Georgia, et al: 

Since Rudy has come to believe that there are at least two activities here on this string (and since I can find nothing that disputes this observation, I am going to pull one of the other strings forward and transfer the discussion regarding a minimum standard to that string entitled "Minimum Standard Sign-up". Perhaps the will be of some service to folks who want to pursue the idea of lineage without casting a shadow on the idea of a minimum standard as a resource for improved communication. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shesulsa

Since I have participated in the discussion on this thread, it is increasingly difficult for me to act as a moderator here.

  I will say that IT IS MY OPINION that splitting this thread off to rehash the same stuff over again is not going to work.

 IT IS ALSO MY OPINION that this thread is going nowhere but in circles. My search for clarity in just what everyone really wants to do by setting a minimum Hapkido standard is still unresolved because, as you can see by the poll resutls, not everyone wants the same thing.

 Earlier I posted on this thread how refreshing it was to see you folks discussing things in a gentlemanly manner - without sniping or griping or pointing fingers - and that has now changed. Rather than using the phrase I continue to emphasize "IN MY OPINION," some members have begun to accuse certain individuals of wrongdoing, ill intentions and so forth.

 IT IS MY OPINION that this is what may kill Korean Martial Arts in this country. KMA is well known as being the problem child in the USA and this is one of the reasons why.

 I was not willing to recommend locking the thread before because I had hopes that you folks could stop yelling at one another and continue the productive conversing you had earlier, but that has not been the case.

 As a member, I would still like to see you folks either return to the polite conversation you were having earlier or simply agree to disagree or propose another solution - so far I was ridiculed by one person for suggesting this. I don't know how a person would think they can carry KMA forward with this kind of garbage muddling one's thinking.

 And rather than point fingers or blame, I am putting this forth as a member, not a Moderator and saying that THIS IS MY HUMBLE OPINION.


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## American HKD

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Stuart:
> I would not cross rank ANYONE from ANY art. I simply do not believe that cross ranking is within my mandate that is all. I LOOK at people who want rank from me OR I supply a person with an NKMAA certificate that denotes what he has earned in a particular Korean art from a reputable organization. I do not push anything on anyone, but I WILL always try to help people such as Paul by providing a continuing "home" for them if their original Instructor disappears.
> 
> Some people apparently believe that this means that I am after money. Bruce, and many others, will testify that I NEVER asked for ANY money. I will not even bother to answer Kevin's post. My reputation allows me to forego such rantings. Stuart, you and I have differences of opinion; however, we both serve the Korean martial arts community by remaining civil while we disagree... I think that is a good start
> 
> BTW, sorry it took so long to get back posting. I don't know if anyone else has problems with this forum. It is not for lack of trying, but I am having a hard time getting on the last few weeks.


Dear Rudy,

Just so you know I even though we sometimes disgree it's never personal with me. I try to make my point as you do sometimes they're very direct but and at time frustrating but never personal.

The cross ranking thing was just trying to prove a point that our Arts are considered seperate, I do see where your comming from though no problem.

If they are one in the same Arts why does'nt each Organization recognize and issue a Cert to the other guy just by asking and paying of course.

That's my issue every org. say world recognized ranks ect, etc but it's not universally accepted.

Have a great Holiday season.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

"....If they are one in the same Arts why does'nt each Organization recognize and issue a Cert to the other guy just by asking and paying of course...." 

I think you already know the answer to that and I have said as much in my post. To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special. Should such a thing happen a n applicant has no more reason to go to one art or school than another. 
It was with no little pain that I sent a goodly number of my students packing for no reason other than that they had come to somehow see what they were doing as very elite compared to others. It was the work of the last 7 years pushed aside and I do not pretend that anyone is to blame other than myself. All the same I would rather have one or two students--- which I do now--- than more than 70 students whose personal development did not match their physical skills. I will continue to train and educate people in the Hapkido arts, but if a person is seeking some sort of validation from me for their skills I suggest they bring their lunch. Its not available for the asking and money carries no leverage. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller

"....If they are one in the same Arts why does'nt each Organization recognize and issue a Cert to the other guy just by asking and paying of course...." 

I think you already know the answer to that and I have said as much in my post. To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special. Should such a thing happen a n applicant has no more reason to go to one art or school than another. 
It was with no little pain that I sent a goodly number of my students packing for no reason other than that they had come to somehow see what they were doing as very elite compared to others. It was the work of the last 7 years pushed aside and I do not pretend that anyone is to blame other than myself. All the same I would rather have one or two students--- which I do now--- than more than 70 students whose personal development did not match their physical skills. I will continue to train and educate people in the Hapkido arts, but if a person is seeking some sort of validation from me for their skills I suggest they bring their lunch. Its not available for the asking and money carries no leverage. FWIW. 

To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special:

Mutual respect is one thing, Hapkido IMHO from two major groups 1. GM Ji, Han Jae and those that came from that liniage or 2. DJN Choi, Yong Sul and his students that spent more than 12 years directly under his instruction & those that those that have trained with one of Chois Masters.

I know many of Ji's kicks are not taught by those that adhere to Chois teachings and I am sure there are some things that Chois students do differently than Jis.  

If any student comes into my dojang they are allowed to where there belt as long as it is of dan level.  Then see how they adapt to and comprehend our curriculum.  The issue is that you have to have a reel good grasp with the basic curriculum before you can go on and the same goes for dan levels.  One would have to be sort of egotistical to assume any thing different.  The problem is that many want to go to an association just for promotion purposses!  IMHO you have to see and feel a persons technique in order to see where there understanding is.

Just some thoughts.

Happy Holidays  

www.millersmudo.com


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## tshadowchaser

Hapkido like so many other arts has grown to the point where there are off shoots of off shoots.   Most people who head an organization do so because they want to set the standards and therefore will not bow down to anyone  or any other organization setting up their rules and standards.

Would it be nice if Hapkido had a set standard for all that have Hapkido in the name  YES  Will it happen  NO.

Once you get past the 3rd generation of instructors  and start seeing "new" systems  you no longer have a unified base on which to say "these are the rules and standards".  It happens with most organizations when they reach a certain point.  Can they  then claim to be" Hapkido or kenpo or Arnis  That will always be a debate


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## kwanjang

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> "....If they are one in the same Arts why does'nt each Organization recognize and issue a Cert to the other guy just by asking and paying of course...."
> 
> I think you already know the answer to that and I have said as much in my post. To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special. Should such a thing happen a n applicant has no more reason to go to one art or school than another.
> It was with no little pain that I sent a goodly number of my students packing for no reason other than that they had come to somehow see what they were doing as very elite compared to others. It was the work of the last 7 years pushed aside and I do not pretend that anyone is to blame other than myself. All the same I would rather have one or two students--- which I do now--- than more than 70 students whose personal development did not match their physical skills. I will continue to train and educate people in the Hapkido arts, but if a person is seeking some sort of validation from me for their skills I suggest they bring their lunch. Its not available for the asking and money carries no leverage. FWIW.
> 
> To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special:
> 
> Mutual respect is one thing, Hapkido IMHO from two major groups 1. GM Ji, Han Jae and those that came from that liniage or 2. DJN Choi, Yong Sul and his students that spent more than 12 years directly under his instruction & those that those that have trained with one of Chois Masters.
> 
> I know many of Ji's kicks are not taught by those that adhere to Chois teachings and I am sure there are some things that Chois students do differently than Jis.
> 
> If any student comes into my dojang they are allowed to where there belt as long as it is of dan level.  Then see how they adapt to and comprehend our curriculum.  The issue is that you have to have a reel good grasp with the basic curriculum before you can go on and the same goes for dan levels.  One would have to be sort of egotistical to assume any thing different.  The problem is that many want to go to an association just for promotion purposses!  IMHO you have to see and feel a persons technique in order to see where there understanding is.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> 
> Happy Holidays
> 
> www.millersmudo.com



Hello Todd, Bruce and Stuart:
MY reason for not cross ranking is very simple. Cross ranking to me means getting certificates from different arts for ONE test.  If I did not see the person do his or her stuff, I am not qualified to give them such a cross rank.  If they are simply asking for the same rank their own Instructor gave to them to begin with, I don't see the need for me to issue another one.  I think doing this would be an insult to the teacher who graded them in the first place, and I would not want to do that.

Georgia:
I appreciate your input, and I am sure that further conversations will be more reasonable.  I am not one to continue such conversations.  I see by YOUR post that you were equally unsure of what the intent of the group is, and that is all I wanted to clear up.  I thought I had done so in a reasonable manner without slandering anyone.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Rudy: 

"......MY reason for not cross ranking is very simple. Cross ranking to me means getting certificates from different arts for ONE test. If I did not see the person do his or her stuff, I am not qualified to give them such a cross rank. If they are simply asking for the same rank their own Instructor gave to them to begin with, I don't see the need for me to issue another one. I think doing this would be an insult to the teacher who graded them in the first place, and I would not want to do that......" 

Honestly I don't know from cross-ranking and insulting other teachers. I have all I can do to keep "this" teacher on The Path. What I can say is that we are clearly in agreement about the nature of certification. Whether my art is close, similar or identical to someone else is, in the end, not the point. For me, the point is that when I put my name down on an application that goes to GM Myung for review, I am attesting to that persons' skill AND character. I don't teach Table Tennis or Bowling. I teach a traditional martial art and if I am going to attach my name to somebody's work I damn-well am going to know the work AND the Workman. This issue is a whole lot different than the matter of a minimal standard for improved communication. My sense is that Stuart knows this but continues to use this string to sell the validity of his Hapkido experience as comparable to that of others. Maybe things work that way in Baseball or Rugby. They certainly don't work like that in any traditional Korean Martial Art I know. However, he has a right to continue to lobby for his Hapkido experience and maybe someone will take him up on it. There are Hal and JR, Dr Kimm and a host of others. My guess is that he needs to try-around and see if anyone will bite.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Rudy:
> 
> "......MY reason for not cross ranking is very simple. Cross ranking to me means getting certificates from different arts for ONE test. If I did not see the person do his or her stuff, I am not qualified to give them such a cross rank. If they are simply asking for the same rank their own Instructor gave to them to begin with, I don't see the need for me to issue another one. I think doing this would be an insult to the teacher who graded them in the first place, and I would not want to do that......"
> 
> Honestly I don't know from cross-ranking and insulting other teachers. I have all I can do to keep "this" teacher on The Path. What I can say is that we are clearly in agreement about the nature of certification. Whether my art is close, similar or identical to someone else is, in the end, not the point. For me, the point is that when I put my name down on an application that goes to GM Myung for review, I am attesting to that persons' skill AND character. I don't teach Table Tennis or Bowling. I teach a traditional martial art and if I am going to attach my name to somebody's work I damn-well am going to know the work AND the Workman. This issue is a whole lot different than the matter of a minimal standard for improved communication. My sense is that Stuart knows this but continues to use this string to sell the validity of his Hapkido experience as comparable to that of others. Maybe things work that way in Baseball or Rugby. They certainly don't work like that in any traditional Korean Martial Art I know. However, he has a right to continue to lobby for his Hapkido experience and maybe someone will take him up on it. There are Hal and JR, Dr Kimm and a host of others. My guess is that he needs to try-around and see if anyone will bite. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

Nice twist but on my thoughts but, Your Hapkido is the same as mine Hal's is the same as mine, Dr. Kimms is the same as mine, Myung is the same as mine JR West is the same as mine Jin Pal is the same as mine etc., etc.

That being said all these people should accept each others rank as valid period. you get my drift. 

Joe Hapkido, or Joe TKD is not the same as mine I have seen that too many times and they're Hapkido is not the same as mine. I do have a problem with these types of so called Hapkido teachers.

I couldnt care less about KS or HRD, but for people who think it's all the same art (and I'm not talking about Rudy here) my question was why don't they cross rank each other and end any problems. Yes I know they won't, but by not doing so they're just re-enforcing thier seperate positions and idenities even more. That's was the point I tried to get across before.

Example: All of the dozens of HKF Kwan's have Oh Se Lims name on thier Dan Cert. not even thier own teachers name appears on it and he's agrueably much more important than Oh Se Lim. Granted the KHF has many problems but they united many independents Kwans under one banner I see that as very good thing. 

BTW each kwan as kept thier own tradition and way of presenting Hapkido to thier students because the KHF recognizes each Kwans independance as important.

Next, I'm well aware that people naturally have an independant spirit and want to do thier own thing, but can you have your cake and eat it too? Is that good for Hapkido? It's seem to me it will only widen the gap of Hapkidoin even more.

Bruce these are important thoughts regarding the unity and future of Hapkido, and more important IMO to minimum requirements, which BTW is a good idea I think I'm the one who first brought it up, and you ran with it if my memory serves me correctly.

Anyway I wouldn't turn your nose up at this, maybe nothing will change but at least I put it out there for people to be aware of.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

"......That being said all these people should accept each others rank as valid period. you get my drift....." 

There is NO twisting going on--- and you KNOW there is no twisting going on. Just as you very subtly worked your agenda into this string on a Minimal Standard you are now very carefully taking one view but representing it as another. I Do get your drift--- better than you know. 

When questioned you are always careful  to frame things in terms of ALL PEOPLE "recognizing" each others rank. The subtle message that goes along under the surface is that "recognition" somehow tranistions into "validation" of one sort or another, which seems to be what you are actually talking about. I think your lack of candor is beginning to border on dishonesty. 

Lets take the message from how YOU, yourself, represent it. 

You say you want "recognition".  Fine. I "recognize" you. You now have what you asked for---- or do you? What you really apparently want is for someone to say something closer to, "Stuarts practice, and the art that Stuart practices is just as valid as the one that I practice." As I am sitting at this keyboard I honestly don't know that is true, but I bet after having spent some time together I could at least make an educated guess for you, if it would help. 

Now take it a step farther. Maybe your idea is a matter of me "validating" your practice. Having spent time with you and seeing that your practice is good, the next logical arguement is "why not certify me as being sound YMK Hapkido----that is----- if you recognize that my practice is "as good as" yours?" 

Beep. "Sorry. You have submitted a request which is not recognized by this machine. Thanks for playing anyhow."

I will not validate you as YMK Hapkido unless you learn YMK Hapkido. I don't think Hal Whalen will validate you in his kwan, nor Rudy in his art nor JR in HIS art. They may take you into their organization so that you have people to Network with, and thats all to the good. But I don't see them giving you the sort of validation or certification you seem to be seeking. And that is just the way it is. Do we continue to have things in common?  Yes. Do we need a common language through which to communicate? Absolutely. Will I still get out on the mat with you? Sure. Are you going to get paper from GM Myung, through me, attesting to your rank or standing?  Not until you have learned YMK Hapkido. 

Now, we both know that there are folks who are not as stiff-necked as I. I suggest that since you got yourself into the predicament that you find yourself that you approach someone who shares your more liberal idea of rank and standing.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

......I will not validate you as YMK Hapkido unless you learn YMK Hapkido. I don't think Hal Whalen will validate you in his kwan, nor Rudy in his art nor JR in HIS art. They may take you into their organization so that you have people to Network with, and thats all to the good. But I don't see them giving you the sort of validation or certification you seem to be seeking. And that is just the way it is. Do we continue to have things in common? Yes. Do we need a common language through which to communicate? Absolutely. Will I still get out on the mat with you? Sure. Are you going to get paper from GM Myung, through me, attesting to your rank or standing? Not until you have learned YMK Hapkido......

Dear Bruce,

You knowingly or unknowingly proved my point.

One one hand you always included all Hapkidoin as not to offend anyone, Rudy does the same thing, Rudy said Hapkido, Kuk Sools the same for posting lineage or to be included in a HKD database but it's not Ok to cross Association boundries for the sake of rank or unity. This is major hypocrosy in my book.

You called YMK Hapkido a seperate system of Hapkido and stated I need to learn it to get rank.

Surprise it's the same Hapkido I learned from Ji and Master Son. YMK or JJK whatever Kwan it's Ji Han Jae's Hapkido it all the same stuff. Hwang Sik Myung barely learned with Choi but considers him his real teacher. What a slap in the face to Ji. Look how many Dan ranks he got from Choi v.s. Ji, that's just crazy talk.

All these Kwans are nothing more than saying Bruce's school or Stuart's school. People making thier own Associations build up these seperate walls for one reason to be in control. 

FYI to be clear this isn't about my rank or what I need. I don't need or want rank from Myung, Rudy, JR or anyone I have rank from the same person they or there teachers have rank from that's all I need. 

Wake up and smell the coffee we're all the same from Ji's lineage that includes me, you, Hal, Dr Kimm, JR, Kim Jin pal, Myung, all the KHF, KHA, kwans, Wollmerhauser, etc. Rudy may be different I don't know.

So if you think my agenda is to have these people recognize each other for rank purposes your right and you can call me liberal if you wan't to that's Ok with me.


----------



## iron_ox

Hello Stuart,

 Bravo.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

"....
On one hand you always included all Hapkidoin as not to offend anyone, Rudy does the same thing, Rudy said Hapkido, Kuk Sools the same for posting lineage or to be included in a HKD database but it's not Ok to cross Association boundries for the sake of rank or unity. This is major hypocrosy in my book....." 

I was thinking that if you are going to use the word "hypocrisy" you might want to at least learn to spell it. *My position stands that we all share common attributes in the Hapkido arts. That does not automatically entitle you to receive recognition in some particular kwan or organization.* Its just that simple. What part of this statement DON'T you understand, Stuart? 

".....You called YMK Hapkido a seperate system of Hapkido and stated I need to learn it to get rank....." 

YMK is one take on Hapkido. KSW is another take on Hapkido. So is Sin Mu, Chung Do Kwan, Mu Sool Kwan and HRD. As far as I am concerned all of these folks could use a common language to communicate better. But having rank in Sin Mu does not automatically make you ranked in HRD. What part of this statement don't you understand, Stuart? 

"......Surprise it's the same Hapkido I learned from Ji and Master Son. YMK or JJK whatever Kwan it's Ji Han Jae's Hapkido it all the same stuff. Hwang Sik Myung barely learned with Choi but considers him his real teacher. What a slap in the face to Ji. Look how many Dan ranks he got from Choi v.s. Ji, that's just crazy talk.

All these Kwans are nothing more than saying Bruce's school or Stuart's school. People making thier own Associations build up these seperate walls for one reason to be in control....." 

Now you are just raving for the sake of raving. There are a number of differences between Myungs approach to Hapkido and his teacher Ji's. Having bounced from teacher to teacher I am not sure how you can even make an educated statement about these differences. But if you really don't NEED rank then whats your point? You started by hi-jacking this string with some stuff about a register. But if rank, or standing, or affiliation mean nothing to you whats your point?  What are you doing beside calling attention to yourself? Since by your admission we are members of the same lineage derived from Ji what difference does it make to you who is in and who is out?

Or maybe you would just like to clear up this last little piece of business as you ended your post. Lets see---- which is the "real Stuart"?

"  ........FYI to be clear this isn't about my rank or what I need.* I don't need or want rank from Myung, Rudy, JR or anyone I have rank from the same person they or there teachers have rank from that's all I need. * 

OR 

*"So if you think my agenda is to have these people recognize each other for rank purposes your right and you can call me liberal if you wan't to that's Ok with me.."*

OR 

Maybe you yourself don't care about rank but you are simply making all of this fuss on behalf of those many disenfranchised poor who do. 

(Yeah--- like THAT could be an option  ) 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

Greeting,

My point again is we're all the same except for some minor details that are for the most part unimportant.

Listen my view is more universal not as separatist but, for arguments sake if a YMK guy came to me with a 1st dan as long as his techniques are "good" and he's a good person then I'm OK with ranking him in Sin Moo why not? 

All he has to do is learn a different order and some Philosophy none of which is worth holding a guy back for. 

If a guy comes from nowhere with good technique in the Hapkido style I would rank him as well why not?

What's so different about YMK v.s. Sin Moo that makes either one so special that a good Hapkidoin doesn't know already? (forms exclued) 

Ji Han Jae will rank others if their Hapkido is good. IMO from what I can see and hear from him is he's above all that separatist stuff and since most of us are from his line anyway he's ranking his own Grandchildren so to speak.

This stuff is so simple Bruce what's your personal problem with it?

And yes the fuss is on behalf of others I have my rank already.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Suart: 

".....Listen my view is more universal not as separatist but, for arguments sake if a YMK guy came to me with a 1st dan as long as his techniques are "good" and he's a good person then I'm OK with ranking him in Sin Moo why not? ..." 

*And so, we have finally come to the real point in your contributions*. And reciprocity being what it is, if you will give Sin Mu ranking to a YMK practitioner it would follow that YMK would fairly give YMK ranking to Sin Mu, yes?  Except that there is a single point that you are blythely ignoring. That single point is the nature of a "kwan" itself. 

A "kwan" is not a "style" or a "building" or an "organization". It is a group of people who have bonded regarding the accomplishment of a goal and are unified by the commonality of the method that they select. This bond is more than just doing the same sorts of techniques, or doing disparate techniques the same way. Such bonds revolve around the priorities of promoting and perpetuating an art. Such bonds are built on fraternity or common experience. Such bonds are based on respect for the same things, the same personalities. Joining a "kwan" is not the same as joining any simple organization or association. 

Moving beyond the nature of a kwan, the same can be said when one binds with a teacher. It is not a matter of paying your money and attending classes. Perhaps this is the common approach in the States and if it is they are welcome to it. You ask about my personal objection and this is it. You are certainly free to define your associations or affiliations any way you choose and I mean you no evil about it. Practice Hapkido all you like and I will bet what you do is not that different from anyone else. The key that you are avoiding is that to subscribe to a particular teacher or kwan entails a level of commitment and bonding beyond simply joining and paying your dues. 

When I went to Korea I was accepted as a student in the Yong Sul Kwan. I paid $300 dollars for my one month training. But being accepted by a kwan is far beyond $300 dollars or showing up for class. And if I have to spend as many posts as I have working to make this distinction clear, I am not sure you are ever going to understand. 

Let me say once more that we all share commonalities, but if what you are advocating is carte blanc interchangeability among various Hapkido arts, I am afraid you have come to the wrong string. Kevin has his approach as does Todd,as do we all. My approach is that we identify commonalities that will allow us to communicate free about what we do. What i am NOT advocating is the ability to interchange rank and standings free throughout the community. Sorry, but I think you are, quite simply, not appreciative of what it is that you are dealing with--- at least at the traditional level. 

Sorry, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Suart:
> 
> ".....Listen my view is more universal not as separatist but, for arguments sake if a YMK guy came to me with a 1st dan as long as his techniques are "good" and he's a good person then I'm OK with ranking him in Sin Moo why not? ..."
> 
> *And so, we have finally come to the real point in your contributions*. And reciprocity being what it is, if you will give Sin Mu ranking to a YMK practitioner it would follow that YMK would fairly give YMK ranking to Sin Mu, yes? Except that there is a single point that you are blythely ignoring. That single point is the nature of a "kwan" itself.
> 
> A "kwan" is not a "style" or a "building" or an "organization". It is a group of people who have bonded regarding the accomplishment of a goal and are unified by the commonality of the method that they select. This bond is more than just doing the same sorts of techniques, or doing disparate techniques the same way. Such bonds revolve around the priorities of promoting and perpetuating an art. Such bonds are built on fraternity or common experience. Such bonds are based on respect for the same things, the same personalities. Joining a "kwan" is not the same as joining any simple organization or association.
> 
> Moving beyond the nature of a kwan, the same can be said when one binds with a teacher. It is not a matter of paying your money and attending classes. Perhaps this is the common approach in the States and if it is they are welcome to it. You ask about my personal objection and this is it. You are certainly free to define your associations or affiliations any way you choose and I mean you no evil about it. Practice Hapkido all you like and I will bet what you do is not that different from anyone else. The key that you are avoiding is that to subscribe to a particular teacher or kwan entails a level of commitment and bonding beyond simply joining and paying your dues.
> 
> When I went to Korea I was accepted as a student in the Yong Sul Kwan. I paid $300 dollars for my one month training. But being accepted by a kwan is far beyond $300 dollars or showing up for class. And if I have to spend as many posts as I have working to make this distinction clear, I am not sure you are ever going to understand.
> 
> Let me say once more that we all share commonalities, but if what you are advocating is carte blanc interchangeability among various Hapkido arts, I am afraid you have come to the wrong string. Kevin has his approach as does Todd,as do we all. My approach is that we identify commonalities that will allow us to communicate free about what we do. What i am NOT advocating is the ability to interchange rank and standings free throughout the community. Sorry, but I think you are, quite simply, not appreciative of what it is that you are dealing with--- at least at the traditional level.
> 
> Sorry,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,

I see things like this personally, I out grew my 1st teachers teaching methods (not his skill) but the way way he expresses the Mudu philosophy and quite a few other things that are not for this forum and that took over 12 years not 2 seminars.

I had a long term bond even awe of him that I would say is gone at this point. He told me once there's a time a son moves out of his fathers house that meant I was my own man an adult if you will. 

We talk every week or two get together for meeting etc. and have a very friendly relationship.

As I said, Ji does and will certifiy anyone with the skills and the desire to learn he knows my teacher well and had not a second thought of going over his head or Kwan to teach me or Roy my partner.

In your Kwan theory that may be wrong, but I don't see it that way.

In olden day of MA arts student went from teacher to teacher to learn and improve thier skills that was normal. 

You can still respect what your teacher did for you as I do but that's all.
I felt best served for my growth in Hapkido to move on. 

I know for sure there are many Hapkidoin who feel the same way as I do and many will not, but never the less there should be a place for everyones path that I sure about.


----------



## American HKD

Bruce 

I missed something above and I think you did as well in your explaination.

*The Kwan is secondary to the Art. *

The Art has to come first that why I beleive as I do. I would hold more credibilty to loyalty to ones teacher than the club itself.

The Kwan/Art relationship is good for both aspects of the Art but Hapkido is the main thing. Kwans can come and go, merge with another Kwan as my teachers kwan did in Korea so what he doesn't care that happened he never lost sleep over it.

YMK is not really even in exisitance these days is it, the WHF supercided the Kwan right? Ji Han Jae does'nt do anything with Sung Moo Kwan he does'nt  care since Sin Moo. So this proves to me anyway the Art is way more important.

So not ranking someone whos knows the same thing as you because of a Kwan to me is very immature and not seeing the forest from the trees.

That's just MHO.


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## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

It is important to remember that when discussing Hapkido it is a mistake to characterize this or that as "more important" or "less important". When you work on your car I don't imagine that you are constantly ranking your tools in terms of importance. I don't think that working on a car in a parking lot as compared to a garage is more or less "important".  There are advantages and disadvantages. 

As far as the existence of Yon Mu Kwan versus the World Hapkido Federation that is a matter of history and policy. There are several reasons that GM Myung began the World Hapkido Federation and gradually put less emphasis on the kwan. Part of that was, admittedly, political. However, another reason had to do with the difficulty in representing the "kwan" as a viable institution to westerners. Westerners can understand organizations where one pays their fees and gets their membership. The kwan is a little harder to understand, rooted as it is in Korean culture. If you examine several of GM Myungs' books you will note that any number of the pictures of schools around the world still use "Yon Mu Kwan" to identify what they do. The emphasis, though, is usually more on the WHF approach than their staus as kwan members. There are still folks who take the nature of the kwan quite literally and quite seriously including yours-truly.

As far as "immaturity" goes, well, everyone has an opinion. I am sure people who are not members of the Masons view Masonic practices as "immature". I would even guess, such groups as Knights of Columbus, Moose, and VFW might be viewed narrowly. There is no reason people cannot join these organizations if they are motivated to, but they DO need to meet whatever the practices of the group are. Thats just the way it is. Casting aspersions such as "immaturity" does not help make your case.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> It is important to remember that when discussing Hapkido it is a mistake to characterize this or that as "more important" or "less important". When you work on your car I don't imagine that you are constantly ranking your tools in terms of importance. I don't think that working on a car in a parking lot as compared to a garage is more or less "important". There are advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> As far as the existence of Yon Mu Kwan versus the World Hapkido Federation that is a matter of history and policy. There are several reasons that GM Myung began the World Hapkido Federation and gradually put less emphasis on the kwan. Part of that was, admittedly, political. However, another reason had to do with the difficulty in representing the "kwan" as a viable institution to westerners. Westerners can understand organizations where one pays their fees and gets their membership. The kwan is a little harder to understand, rooted as it is in Korean culture. If you examine several of GM Myungs' books you will note that any number of the pictures of schools around the world still use "Yon Mu Kwan" to identify what they do. The emphasis, though, is usually more on the WHF approach than their staus as kwan members. There are still folks who take the nature of the kwan quite literally and quite seriously including yours-truly.
> 
> As far as "immaturity" goes, well, everyone has an opinion. I am sure people who are not members of the Masons view Masonic practices as "immature". I would even guess, such groups as Knights of Columbus, Moose, and VFW might be viewed narrowly. There is no reason people cannot join these organizations if they are motivated to, but they DO need to meet whatever the practices of the group are. Thats just the way it is. Casting aspersions such as "immaturity" does not help make your case. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Bruce, 

I wasn't implying your immature because your veiw differs from mine.

The fact remains people who all do the same Art Hapkido, from the same lineage of Ji Han Jae, don't or won't recognized each other across the board and that bothers me. It's like throwing out the baby with the bath water in my view.

The KHF has this part right by "universally ranking all Kwans in the Federation regardless of differences with one certification for all members". 

Everybody in WHF must follow the same curriculum right? 

In Sin Moo for example Master Ji teaches his core techniques but says you can do what ever you want from there. He says "It's your choice whatever you can do!"

*Note:* He's also talking to Instructors when he gives us that freedom of choice because he knows it will be done with-in the correct frame work of Sin Moo Hapkido.

What other Association or Master do you know is that open minded about the Art? To me it's amazing and shows a very secure person who can say and mean those things. That's how I feel about Master Ji, he's above all this pettyness.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Stuart: 

Sounds like you have a good thing.  If I were you I'd say you found a home and I would stick with it. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## iron_ox

Hello all,

Getting back to the original intent of the string, can someone involved in this project please define the object for which you are developing minimum standards?

There has not been a single definition of what the minimum standards group is to use for Hapkido in this entire thread.

Isn't it neccessary to define the object of standards so as to set parameters?


----------



## jfarnsworth

iron_ox said:
			
		

> There has not been a single definition of what the minimum standards group is to use for Hapkido in this entire thread.


How true that is. It reminds me of how many differences my fellow kenpo people have.  :asian:


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## glad2bhere

You don't have to define "Football" for everyone to agree to call a ball "a ball".  You don't have to define Golf for everyone to agree to call a nine iron "a nine iron". You don't have to define Taekwondo for all practitioners to decide that a front kick will be termed a "front snap kick" and be differentiated from a "front toe kick" or a "front heel kick". You don't have to define Hapkido for everyone to agree that compromising an attackers stability is called "off-balancing". 

Do YOU want to define Hapkido? Go ahead. Thats not what this string is about and I don't see that its necessary, but knock yourself out.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## kwanjang

American HKD said:
			
		

> In Sin Moo for example Master Ji teaches his core techniques but says you can do what ever you want from there. He says "It's your choice whatever you can do!"
> 
> *Note:* He's also talking to Instructors when he gives us that freedom of choice because he knows it will be done with-in the correct frame work of Sin Moo Hapkido.
> 
> What other Association or Master do you know is that open minded about the Art? To me it's amazing and shows a very secure person who can say and mean those things. That's how I feel about Master Ji, he's above all this pettyness.



Hello Stuart:
In my school I teach the core curriculum; however, even there I insist that students make the techniques their own.  I cannot imagine anyone asking their students to "clone" things, as each person as an individual needs to use the principles of the techniques to suit their nature, body style, ability etc. etc. to their own best advantage.  So, I think GM Ji is NOT the only one who feels the way he does about giving some leeway.

I might not have explained my reasons for NOT cross ranking.  I WILL give people certification IF they show me good technique (and basically adhere to the generally accepted standards of Hap Ki Do).  What I do NOT do is offer a blanket cross rank without actually SEEING a person do his stuff.

While the generally accepted standards of Hap Ki Do might not have been written down yet, I think we ALL know when a person knows his stuff or does not.  That is the criteria I use, and so far it has worked fine.  To give you an idea what I mean:  If a person shows good technique but he does not have hyung, I do not withold certification.  I just want to SEE the stuff they do know.  Many kwans do not require forms, so I do not insist on them (even though they are a big part of MY curriculum).  I hope you get my drift.


----------



## American HKD

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Stuart:
> In my school I teach the core curriculum; however, even there I insist that students make the techniques their own. I cannot imagine anyone asking their students to "clone" things, as each person as an individual needs to use the principles of the techniques to suit their nature, body style, ability etc. etc. to their own best advantage. So, I think GM Ji is NOT the only one who feels the way he does about giving some leeway.
> 
> I might not have explained my reasons for NOT cross ranking. I WILL give people certification IF they show me good technique (and basically adhere to the generally accepted standards of Hap Ki Do). What I do NOT do is offer a blanket cross rank without actually SEEING a person do his stuff.
> 
> While the generally accepted standards of Hap Ki Do might not have been written down yet, I think we ALL know when a person knows his stuff or does not. That is the criteria I use, and so far it has worked fine. To give you an idea what I mean: If a person shows good technique but he does not have hyung, I do not withold certification. I just want to SEE the stuff they do know. Many kwans do not require forms, so I do not insist on them (even though they are a big part of MY curriculum). I hope you get my drift.


Rudy,

Good post, we are in 110% agreement on all of the above. 

People who are rigid are missing the boat IMO, as you said everyone's mind and body is diiferent. 

I look for the way people move and you can tell if they know Hapkido or not.

My first teacher required us to memorized hundreds of tech. many of which just over lapped from somewhere else. When I was yound I did it but now
I think after you know x amount there's to need to memorize for memorization sake but understanding the principle of each technique is what's important. 

Then your free to move or react at will as a MA.


----------



## American HKD

Greetings

Actually I've been thinking about the minimum standards for a while and I have two issues.

1. If it's JUST for the sake of terminology I think it's good.

2. If it's for requiring rank, meaning what someone has to learn it for X rank, I'm not sure if it will help. 

Because a REAL Hapkido Instr. knows what to teach and these standards are meaningless for him/her.


----------



## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> You don't have to define "Football" for everyone to agree to call a ball "a ball". *So any game using a "ball" is Football?  How about the fact that the Brits call Soccer "Football" - so these two games are the same?*
> 
> You don't have to define Taekwondo for all practitioners to decide that a front kick will be termed a "front snap kick" and be differentiated from a "front toe kick" or a "front heel kick". *How can they be practitioners if they have no way of differentiating themselves from those doing other arts?  The kick they do is for them unique to them and therefore would have definition to them.*
> 
> You don't have to define Hapkido for everyone to agree that compromising an attackers stability is called "off-balancing". *This is an element of several arts, not just one, and for this art would be only a single part of its definition.*



It is, by definition of standards it is neccessary to define what you are standardizing.  If you are not going to define Hapkido, then this is just an exercise in comparitive technique between who knows.  Without definition, there will be lists of techniques that will have no bearing on any art at all.  From an academic point of view, a definition shouild have been the first thing accomplished, otherwise, it is impossible to create a standard - becasue it would them beg the question of "standard of what".

By your analogy, Pete Rose and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar could all be considered part of a standard for great Football players.


----------



## glad2bhere

Maybe you need a definition to fullfill YOUR agenda, but I don't need one to accomplish what it is I am working at. I said that if you want to define Hapkido go ahead. You didn't do it so I am concluding that you have more investment in raising issues than solving problems. Nothing wrong with that except that is not what I am about. As far as I have been able to tell from the posts your contribtuions have been limited to finding fault and not to adding to the discourse. Again, nothing wrong with that except that is not what this effort is about. Now, is there something you would like to add to the growing wealth of information, or do you just want to stand around and 
and comment loudly, and to noone in particular, how you could do what the folks who are actually working are doing "except better". 

Bruce


----------



## iron_ox

Hello all,

Borrowed this becasue I think it is appropriate:


*POT AND KETTLE

Perhaps the first rule of verbal self-defense, in the absence of legitimate and logically grounded opinion, is to accuse the accuser. Cornered, the VS or VTG will be quick to point out that it is the critic(s) who display(s) the warning signs of martial arts fraudulence.*

It is SO typical. that when confronted with a very obvious question that begs answering in regard to the nature of the effort that is supposedly being undertaken, that the very nature of the questioner is brought into play as opposed to the question - 

But, I suppose that the very nature of what has transpired here is the very answer to my question:  Standards without definition, much like the agenda pushed here that Hapkido is a generic catch all for everything from Korea that is not TaeKwonDo.  How convenient then to avoid a definition so that ANY set of techniques can come under consideration.

A definition of the word "Standard":

*Something established as a basis of comparison in measuring or judging capacity, quantity, content, value, quality, etc.; a specified set of safety or performance qualities which a device or process must possess. These must generally be demonstrated by a series of tests conducted under pre-determined conditions.  * (eg - an agreed upon definition of what it is being standardized)

So, if you, or the rest of this group is not going to provide a definition, how do you  measure the use of a standard for all Korean martial arts other than TaeKwonDo?

No Bruce, I am not being negative, I am simply right.  It is the insidious agenda being pushed here of the use of Hapkido as a cover all that I object to and will continue to object to.  My belief that this is infact the agenda here is further borne out by the lack of a definition by which a "minimal standard" can work.

Furthermore, to continue your rude conjecturing, if I am speaking to noone, well, at least *I* here it loud and clear - so I'm in damn good company.


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## glad2bhere

Fine-- go be right. How many terms have YOU contributed? How many concepts have YOU helped define? Fine. You get bragging rights to "being right". Not that you have helped improve anything, or pulled people togther or promoted better communication. But you CAN sit around and tell everyone how YOU were RIGHT. Good for you, Kevin. Thanks for all the help. You get to sit around and tell anyone who will listen that you were the sole source of "correctness" while everyone else was fumbling around. Oh--- but if they would have JUST LISTENED to Kevin, then they would have known the Truth instead of shambling along in darkness, right? 

I remember something about lighting a candle rather than cursing the darkness. But there is security in cursing the darkness, isn't there Kevin? You don't have to risk anything because there are a LOT of folks who will validate darkness. How many people want to make the effort to light the candle? Or maybe you don't mind lighting a candle as long as YOUR candle is the only one ---- and YOU are the one who is holding it, yes? Fine.  Whatever.

I suppose I should at least be grateful that you were honest enough to be forth-coming about what was on your mind ("....It is the insidious agenda being pushed here of the use of Hapkido as a cover all that I object to and will continue to object to. My belief that this is infact the agenda here is further borne out by the lack of a definition by which a "minimal standard" can work.....") Not like you were ever on-board with the idea to begin with, right? Of course, had it been YOUR idea it would have borne a halo and been accompanied by a heavenly choir---- and suitably defined in a manner to which you would like to become accustomed-- Hapkido according to Todd and Kevin and only available at "authorized dealerships". Like I say, "whatever". 


Bruce


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## iron_ox

Bruce,

Wow, mighty good rant.  Feel better?  Now, can you define Hapkido for this minimal standard or not?  That's all I questioned.

Against my better judgement, I will make one comment to your nonsense:  I think you will be amazed at who I have brought together from the wedge this thread has tried to create - but only time will present that one.


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## iron_ox

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Hapkido according to Todd and Kevin and only available at "authorized dealerships". Like I say, "whatever".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Todd have to do with this?  I asked a question about definition and you try and insult both of us?  Todd had nothing to do with this question - and frankly, the question of definition was open to all concerned with this project.
Click to expand...


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## glad2bhere

Here, I'll fix it. 

"......Hapkido according to Kevin and only available at "authorized dealerships"....." Whatever. 

The bit with the definition is getting a little old. You are not interested in *A* definition. You are only interested in *YOUR* definition. Having to consider commonalities would mean that your take on Hapkido is no more, or less, valid than anyone elses, and thats bad for business, right? Not that you can't keep using this string to keep yourself in the public eye. Its just not what the original intention of the string was.  

Bruce


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## KenpoTess

* MOD NOTE

Thread Locked Pending Admin Review, There has been numerous reports to Mod referencing various issues.  Sniping seems to be the main problem.  An Investigation will ensue.

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-
*


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