# Chi Sau; Friend or Foe?



## Si-Je (Aug 4, 2009)

Some styles favor chi sau, some do it but don't think of it as anything but a drill for building skill, some don't teach it at all. And some students have their own thoughts on chi sau. 

Do you think that Chi Sau is really effective in teaching one to "fight"? In realistic terms? 
yes, everyone pretty much knows how I feel on the subject, but I really want to know what you all think. and why?

Do you think it's realistic for WC or "fight" training? (and i don't mean the "cage" fight training. so please don't go...,, blah, blah.. I mean a real fight for your life, bleeding, biting, break your tooth and chip a nail ... FIGHTING! training)
Will Chi Sau help or hinder you?


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## bully (Aug 5, 2009)

It teaches you to react to movement/attack, gotta be a good thing imo.


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## mook jong man (Aug 5, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Some styles favor chi sau, some do it but don't think of it as anything but a drill for building skill, some don't teach it at all. And some students have their own thoughts on chi sau.
> 
> Do you think that Chi Sau is really effective in teaching one to "fight"? In realistic terms?
> yes, everyone pretty much knows how I feel on the subject, but I really want to know what you all think. and why?
> ...


 
If it is trained correctly it is absolutely effective for realistic fighting.
The list of attributes that it develops in a fighter would probably fill a page , but just a few that it develops are aggression , stance , proper angles of arms , forward force and correct spontaneous reactions with out the need for conscious thought.
Remember if you have to think about it , its too late.

You can illustrate its usefulness in real fighting by this little experiment , get someone to throw a series of four corner punches at you.
Right then Left circular punches to the head , and then Right then Left uppercut punches to the gut.
Start off doing them slow and wide so they have plenty of time to do their simultaneous attack and deflections.

Then start doing them extremely fast and with ever tightening trajectories , bring your strikes in so tight that you are barely even leaving contact with their arms , watch as their simultaneous attack and deflections turn to crap as it just becomes a mess of arms .

You can see that what happens is a type of defence using Chi Sau.
What they will do is instinctively stick to the inside of your arms and try to roll from Tan Sau to Bong Sau so that they can control you , this forms a sort of cone shaped defence with the point of the cone focused at the opponent.

They have to do this because not only is the action too fast for them to simultaneous attack and counter , it is also too fast for them to see.
This is where Chi Sau comes into its own because at such short range  and with such fast movement you cannot depend on your eyes , they are far too slow.

Your arms must now become your eyes or your ears and instead of deflecting with one arm and striking with the other , you must now be able to strike and control with both of your arms independently.


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## seasoned (Aug 5, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> If it is trained correctly it is absolutely effective for realistic fighting.
> The list of attributes that it develops in a fighter would probably fill a page , but just a few that it develops are aggression , stance , proper angles of arms , forward force and correct spontaneous reactions with out the need for conscious thought.
> Remember if you have to think about it , its too late.
> 
> ...


Absolutely necessary, we call it pushing hands, it may not be the best name for it. It developers intuitiveness and sensitivity in our body, in relationship to our opponent. This is one of my sayings in my signature. "For in battle, to think, is to die". It helps you to feel your opponents intentions before he himself knows, what he is about to do.   
 :asian:


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## Domino (Aug 5, 2009)

For me, chi sao shows me how to apply and feel the techniques I have learned in my form properly and how to continue applying or moving if needs be.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 5, 2009)

Chi sao is to Wing Chun as the lead jab is to boxing.  Without chi sao, it would be impossible to build the sensitivity needed to counter an opponent when they attempt to tie you up.  Without the lead jab in boxing, your opponent wold basically pummel you at will without regard to your defense.

Chi sao may not teach you to fight, but it sure helps to understand what you opponent is trying to do to you at the time of contact (sensitivity).  That to me is important.  When contact it make, sensitivity helps in reading the attackers mind or intentions during the time of an attack.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 5, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> . . . Do you think that Chi Sau is really effective in teaching one to "fight"? In realistic terms?
> yes, everyone pretty much knows how I feel on the subject, but I really want to know what you all think. and why?
> 
> Do you think it's realistic for WC or "fight" training? (and i don't mean the "cage" fight training. so please don't go...,, blah, blah.. I mean a real fight for your life, bleeding, biting, break your tooth and chip a nail ... FIGHTING! training)
> Will Chi Sau help or hinder you?


 
Chi sau is the sensitivity drill that sets Wing Chun apart from almost all other arts. Most arts have forms, katas, or what they call imaginary fights (we use them to teach proper hand positions). But they are used to teach the blocks, punches, kicks, or hand positions of each art. Then, just about every art has drills which teach applications to the punches, blocks, kicks, or hand positions. Afterwards, most of the other arts tell you to go out and spar or learn how to use the punches, kicks, and blocks in a fight. But they don't tell you or train you in how to use the punches, blocks, and kicks that you learn in the forms and the applications. 

Chi sau helps you to use those hand positions that you learn through forms and drills, allows you to find the use of them through sensitivity (attack and defend, or contact and pressure) which gives to a chance to find points of reference to aid in executing those hand postions through familiarity of contact. Without chi sau, we would be like all the other arts, *guessing* at when to use this block or punch, this step or kick, that counter or attack, and getting it wrong (like they do) a majority of the time.

So an art that teaches sensitivity training (Wing Chun, Tai chi, Kali/Escrima, others?) has a distinct advantage over other arts when training students to effectively use the art for combat.


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## Si-Je (Aug 5, 2009)

To me Chi Sau IS combat. It teaches you to stay relaxed and calm while under pressure and how to respond correctly to the energy directed towards you while always sending your forward intention into the opponent.
The beginning of real combat happens when contact is made. Whether someone's getting hit, blocked, kicked or grabbed. Many styles of fighting work the outside to keep distance from the opponent, even breaking away after a strike is connected. This obviously gives the "other guy" a chance to read you and respond with their own attack.
The skills learned from Chi Sau takes this element away and for me, teaches one how to be effective in real combat.  Everytime I spar I feel where chi sau begins even in spontaneous sparring. I can feel when I've missed my window to engage and keep engaged the opponent in chi sau range. (wing chun range) Without chi sau there just wouldn't be wing chun.

But, many seem to dislike it these days, or say that it isn't helpful for learning how to fight for real. Or that you don't use chi sau movements when defending against spontaneous real attack.
I disagree, but it seems to be an idea that is spreading.

We had a pretty squirrly teenage student that used to take football. He liked to "test" us out in fun alot and man, I had to watch that kiddo. lol!
I was sitting in a chair one night watching Sifu and him talk about football and how to use WC with football techniques. (don't ask me how you do this, all I heard was "blah, blah blah.")

So he wanted to see how WC would defend against a football tackle. By this time I just totally "spaced" out and was in girl la la land. lol! Sifu said to him something about trying that on Si-Je and he jumped at the chance to "tackle" Si-Je while she's sitting in the chair all nice and spaced out. Almost before I even saw him run at me I found myself doing some weird chi sau thing with my arms on his head. Since the body follows the head, his tackle turned into fall down and go boom. 
I was still sitting there in the chair. (don't ask me what I did, I have no Earthly idea! That's just not something you can reproduce artificially) 

So, Chi sau in a chair defeats teenage football linebacker running tackle. lol! Is this not the heart and soul of combat?


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 6, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> . . . . The skills learned from Chi Sau . . . . . teaches one how to be effective in real combat. Everytime I spar I feel where chi sau begins even in spontaneous sparring. I can feel when I've missed my window to engage and keep engaged the opponent in chi sau range. (wing chun range) Without chi sau there just wouldn't be wing chun.
> 
> But, many seem to dislike it these days, or say that it isn't helpful for learning how to fight for real. Or that you don't use chi sau movements when defending against spontaneous real attack.
> I disagree, but it seems to be an idea that is spreading.
> ...


 
You said it yourself, skills learned from Chi Sau. . . . *teaches one how to be effective in real combat.*  But it is not fighting or combat itself.  Chi sau is a sensitivity drill that aids in developing the skill to handle contact in combat, be it offensive or defensive.

I've seen chi sau taught like fighting between to people, which it shouldn't be.  It then becomes a mish-mash of trading blows between two people, with neither having or getting the upper hand on one another.  That is not the idea of what chi sau is all about.  The 6 stages of chi sau are about helping you and your training partner learn, understand, and handle contact when fighting or in combat at an in-close situation.  How can one gain sensitivity and learn to deal with a combat situation when two people are constantly fighting for the upper hand or control over the other?  Or trying to one up the other?

Yes, what was done with the football tackle while seated is the essense of what chi sau helps develop, to be able to defend ones self without thought in a combat situation.


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## geezer (Aug 6, 2009)

zepedawingchun said:


> ...The 6 stages of chi sau are about helping you and your training partner learn, understand, and handle contact when fighting or in combat at an in-close situation...



I haven't heard "_the 6 stages of chi-sau_" referenced before. Could be just a difference of terminology, but still, could you expand a bit on this?


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 6, 2009)

geezer said:


> I haven't heard "_the 6 stages of chi-sau_" referenced before. Could be just a difference of terminology, but still, could you expand a bit on this?


 
1. Don chi sau practice . . . beginning stage of chi sau where students train using one hand at a time in the use of the 3 major hands of chi sau, bong, tan, and fook sau.  Also called single hand chi sau.

2. Luk sau or double hand chi sau . .  where students now use 2 hands and rotate or roll the hands from tan sau to bong sau and the fook sau riding, maintaining contact while hands change from postion to position.

3. Jow sau jip sau or running hand catching hand . . . where students push anothers tan, bong, or fook sau out of position forcing the other student to run to find another position to cover.  The student forcing the run must also catch the other students running positon or risk getting hit by the runners hand or strike.  In this stage you learn to disengage to attack, stick or cut off to prevent an attack, or find engagement to stop an attack.  It teaches student to maintain their position if the energy they receive is weak or yield and redirect if the incoming energy is too much.

4. Poon Sau. . . rolling with intent of forward or backward pressure, screwing inwards with springy energy, and moving your opponent off their horse.  Testing of proper position is done by each and also light contact or striking is made when proper position is lost.  Very similar to jow sau jip sau.

5. Mai san jong . . . chi sau using the hand positions from the muk yan jong form (dummy).  Taking bits and pieces of the jong sets and using them in chi sau with a partner to tie up, counter, or work how to strike your partner.

6. Gor sau . . . free form chi sau with intent to forward energy, pressure, trapping, up-rooting, light striking, and tieing up your partner.  Many people think of this as fighting but it truth, it is just drilling or testing your skills.


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## geezer (Aug 6, 2009)

Thanks for the explanation. I'd appreciate it if you could clarify what you mean by "running" in the following drill. Are you refering to actual retreating footwork, a withdrawing or repositioning of the hand, or something else?



zepedawingchun said:


> 3. Jow sau jip sau or running hand catching hand . . . where students push anothers tan, bong, or fook sau out of position *forcing the other student to run to find another position to cover.*


 

Incidentally, we have no term like_ "running"_ in the WT system. Our intent is to always maintain_ forward_ pressure. So we only retreat or turn aside when actually pressed back by our opponent's force. Then, as we "dissolve" or dissipate his force, we try to use forward "spring" to follow as he withdraws his technique. 

Our basic methods of training chi-sau are:

1._ Dan Chi Sau_= Single handed chi sau done across, to the same side, then high middle and low levels, and finally with forward, backward and turning steps in response to the pressure received. 

2. _Poon sau=_ Rolling arms with hand changes or _wun sau._

3._ Seven Sections of Luk Sau=_ Each section involves  several cycles of attacking techniques and counters, applying movements from the first two forms.

_4. Kuo-Sau= _Free form application of the sections, sometimes called chi-sau sparring.

_5. Advanced Chi-Sau Sections= _additional movement cycles of attacks and counters applying movements from Biu Tze and the Mook Yang Jong.

Arranging the movements into "sections" of repeating cycles, assures that a student learns a complete range of attacks and counters, rather than becoming overly dependent upon a handful of favorite techniques. Footwork is a huge part of this training, since the various cycles often involve pushing, pulling and turning forces that must dissolved and exploited with the steps as well as arm movements. As soon as each section is learned, the movements may then be applied randomly in Kuo Sau against varying degress of resistance.


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## mook jong man (Aug 6, 2009)

geezer said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I'd appreciate it if you could clarify what you mean by "running" in the following drill. Are you refering to actual retreating footwork, a withdrawing or repositioning of the hand, or something else?


 
I'm not sure Geezer but I think Zep maybe talking about what we called _running palms._
I know , it sounds like something teenage boys do in the bathroom with the door locked lol.
Essentially it is used when the opponent tries to force your arm out or down.

Instead of trying to resist the force you just let your hand relax at the wrist so it bends and the force goes straight past your palm.

Once disengaged the opponent can't recover fast enough from his out ward or downward movement and using our spring energy our arm goes straight in for the strike while the other dudes arm is still out of position.


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## Si-Je (Aug 6, 2009)

Your so bad Mook. lol! But, wouldn't that be "slapping hands?" 

Could you explain that particular drill in more detail? I think this other teacher showed me something like that, but I'm not sure. Basically, I found my centerline being "pushed" totally off my partner and in a position where I had to "scramble" to get set right to defend and attack. I didn't want to step backwards, but found it very difficult to pivot my way out of the "jam" without stepping back or straight to the side.
They showed me more of what to do, because I just froze trying to figure a way out without stepping back. And yes, you do end up kinda "running" to get your centerline back.

I liked it but was only shown it once. Never learned that in training before with WC/WT mix style teaching.  I think he taught me way more Wing Tzun than WC. Which is good stuff! But, I really liked alot of the GM Fung stuff better.


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## mook jong man (Aug 6, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Your so bad Mook. lol! But, wouldn't that be "slapping hands?"
> 
> Could you explain that particular drill in more detail? I think this other teacher showed me something like that, but I'm not sure. Basically, I found my centerline being "pushed" totally off my partner and in a position where I had to "scramble" to get set right to defend and attack. I didn't want to step backwards, but found it very difficult to pivot my way out of the "jam" without stepping back or straight to the side.
> They showed me more of what to do, because I just froze trying to figure a way out without stepping back. And yes, you do end up kinda "running" to get your centerline back.
> ...


 
Here you go madame , here's one I prepared earlier.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70316


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## Si-Je (Aug 6, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Here you go madame , here's one I prepared earlier.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70316


 
Awesome! But, if someone "pulls" me down(I usually heel kick and that works. even with the new teacher and his student. lol! he kept trying to latch me which worked, but I could always still kick them in the knee.)
or pushes forward I usually just wrist roll out of it and go forward with attack.
Love those wrist rolls... Men should do them more. lol!

But, what new teacher did was all that and then pak sau'ed my shoulder (and my rib/hip) turning my body so much I had to "run off" to regain centerline. (that sucked because I didn't know what elese to do. so contra to WC)

Maybe because it was totally new to me, or that I just didn't know how to deal with that...(never was taught how to deal with that)
But, yeah,. when your centerline is compromised, what do you do?
Your off balance, turned around, and "pushed" to where your opponent is in the side of your ear. off balance and they're pressing you. (oddly I can deal with wrestlers, or whatever, just not really excellent strikers in that manner!) ouch@! not good...

How do you regain centerline without going backwards?
So many questions, Si-Hing


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 6, 2009)

I wish I had more people to train with!!! all these lovely tales just get me more and more amped up! I'm about to explodeeee-ah!


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## mook jong man (Aug 7, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Awesome! But, if someone "pulls" me down(I usually heel kick and that works. even with the new teacher and his student. lol! he kept trying to latch me which worked, but I could always still kick them in the knee.)
> or pushes forward I usually just wrist roll out of it and go forward with attack.
> Love those wrist rolls... Men should do them more. lol!
> 
> ...


 
I think you use a stance with one leg forward don't you , so this might be different for you.
But it sounds like you might be too high up in your stance and/or not projecting your force to the centreline accurately . Which might be making it easier for him to turn you .


But if you are pushed or pivoted to the side I would try and recover by pivoting back towards him and side slashing him in the side or back of his neck depending on his position.

Practice getting someone to pull on your arm and trying to wrench you off to the side.
Get in your stance with guard up , partner stands in front and uses two hands to grab your right arm and tries to drag you over to his right .

You physically and mentally project towards the centreline and when he pulls , you maintain your angles in your arms and you just walk into the centre.

Do the same thing with your left arm , and then have him do it on random sides with your eyes closed.
In my experience it seems to be mostly a mental thing , you will find that if you are not mentally beaming your force forward into the centre it is a lot easier for you to be pulled or pushed off to the side.

Of course stance has a great deal to do with it also , but I have found that it is very difficult to drag or push someone off centre when they are single mindedly focused on going towards the centreline.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 7, 2009)

geezer said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I'd appreciate it if you could clarify what you mean by "running" in the following drill. Are you refering to actual retreating footwork, a withdrawing or repositioning of the hand, or something else?


 
No, not retreating.  The term is running *hand*.  If one of your hands is in a tan sau position, you use that hand to oi jut sau (sideways snapping hand) your partners fook sau outward, out of position so you can immediately move your tan/oi jut sau into a palm strike or punch.  Because you push or snap your partners fook sau out of a protective or sensing position, it is best for them to *run their hand* underneath (or huen sau over) your arm and regain the center with something like tan sau to prevent or stop your forward strike.  And of course, if I run my hand faster than they can strike, they have to catch my hand (stop) with a fook, or jop sau or something, to keep from getting hit.  You do this for all the major hands, tan, bong, and fook.  Push or move the hand out of position and go forward or threaten with a strike.  One person play offense and the other defense.  Then after awhile you switch tasks in the drill.  Thus the drill name jow sau jip (jeep) sau, or running hand catching hand.




geezer said:


> Incidentally, we have no term like_ "running"_ in the WT system. Our intent is to always maintain_ forward_ pressure. So we only retreat or turn aside when actually pressed back by our opponent's force. Then, as we "dissolve" or dissipate his force, we try to use forward "spring" to follow as he withdraws his technique.


 
We don't retreat either, we recover and go forward if pressed and lose our position.  We maintain forward pressure too.  But sometimes, in chi sau, your partner is good at taking your hands off the line enough to move forward with 1 or both hands faster than you can move aside.  And remember, there's nothing saying they can shift to your direction, when you move aside, and cut you off too.  You have to regain a hand(s) in the center somehow, and running in or under their arms, with a relaxed hand at first, to take the line back, can be used. You don't have the term jow sau or running hand?


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 7, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I'm not sure Geezer but I think Zep maybe talking about what we called _running palms._
> I know , it sounds like something teenage boys do in the bathroom with the door locked lol.
> Essentially it is used when the opponent tries to force your arm out or down.
> 
> ...


 
Correct!


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 7, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Awesome! But, if someone "pulls" me down(I usually heel kick and that works. even with the new teacher and his student. lol! he kept trying to latch me which worked, but I could always still kick them in the knee.)
> or pushes forward I usually just wrist roll out of it and go forward with attack.
> Love those wrist rolls... Men should do them more. lol!
> 
> ...


 
Sounds to me like your hands (arms) are too rigid which allows him to latch or pull you down or off your horse.  So, in essense, you are reacting instead of responding to their energy.  When someone pushs or tries to latch, you should give up the energy and huen sau around their hand to a superior position, preferably on top of their hand and forcing your energy inward, towards them.  Prevent them from taking you off balance, turned around, or out of position.

The pak sau on the shoulder, you should relax and sink your center to make it hard or almost impossible to turn your body.  Not sure how he was able to turn you whole body with just a pak sau, unless you weren't rooted or was standing way to high.  While he was trying to turn your body, you should have been straight blasting towards his face.  

A lot of times, I find smaller people try to fight up to talker or bigger people.  Which is a mistake.  You need to make them come down to you and fight instead.  Since your center of gravity is lower, it should be much harder for someone taller to lever you off your horse, so they have to come down to your level to be able to do that.

In answer to your question, what do you do when your centerline is compromised?  Kiss you a*s goodbye!  You should cut them off before it gets that far.  If your stance is correct, and rooted, and hand positions correct, with springy and relaxed energy, you shouldn't lose your centerline.  Once you've lost it, or when you lose it, that means you were reacting to their attack instead or responding to their energy.  That's Too Late!


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## BlueVino (Aug 7, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Do you think that Chi Sau is really effective in teaching one to "fight"? In realistic terms?



Based on some YouTube videos I've seen, it seems that some schools work Chi Sau as a game of tag; I think that's missing the point. Other people have listed out what Chi Sau teaches, and I agree: it teaches important tools, but the drill is by no means comprehensive.

In my opinion, Chi Sau is to fighting as learning how to swing a hammer is to building a house.

In the book Meditations on Violence, the author goes through what he learned about fighting when he was a prison officer, and how it varies from his martial arts training. According to his argument, Chi Sau practiced as "tag" is counter-productive to surviving a fight. Based on my experience, one needs to practice Chi Sau at a very high intensity for it to prepare them for an assault.


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## geezer (Aug 7, 2009)

zepedawingchun said:


> You don't have the term jow sau or running hand?



Thanks for the clarification. Actually we _do_ use the term _"run-around"_ to describe the use of huen-sau in situations like you described. As far as the term "jip" goes... I vaguely recall my first sifu who was Chinese using something like that, but that was a long time ago and I'm no expert on the Cantonese terms. Anyway, it isn't one of the main terms we use. Beyond that, I'll have to ask my instructor and get back to you.


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## Si-Je (Aug 7, 2009)

He really didn't have to latch, and all he did was redirect while stepping into me with like a double palm strike. (don't know what it's called) I've learned it before, just not used to double palm strike/like the shoulder and the hip or lower rib at the same time. Works well. You can't just pivot back against that and face your centerline to him again. 
Tried that. sunk in stance and just ended up forcing with force. you have to give somehow, otherwise your fighting the force/pressure.

Limited I am. lol! Just don't know how to regain from there. I can always regain my centerline on an opponent, this was the first time I couldn't. even with x-hubbie.
Man, I can't wait to train full on with this Sifu. I'll learn whatever he's got to teach me, I tell you what... yepperz. 

As for Chi sau becomeing a "competition". Once that happens, it's lost. But oddly chi sau is a bit of a competition. But that's when your missing the whole concept of chi sau. Which, lol! I'm talking all wise here, but everytime I do chi sau after awhile I find myself "competing" to get in on the person. I try not to to just let it happen but it's hard. 
You just are focusing on your forward pressure and intention and still not getting in, moving and flowing, still not in there, then I just end up trying to "make it Happen" . Works sometimes, but half the time I get myself in trouble. 
But, then of course. The only people I've ever done chi sau with are with Sifu or Dai-SiHing level folks, so thats not fair. 
You'll just never get in, so give it up and just feel the flow.  Enjoy the slapp. lol!


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 8, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> He really didn't have to latch, and all he did was redirect while stepping into me with like a double palm strike. (don't know what it's called) I've learned it before, just not used to double palm strike/like the shoulder and the hip or lower rib at the same time. Works well. You can't just pivot back against that and face your centerline to him again.
> Tried that. sunk in stance and just ended up forcing with force. you have to give somehow, otherwise your fighting the force/pressure.!


 
Double palm strike, 1 low, 1 high is called po pai jern.  The best counter is to relax, sink, and execute a quan sau or simultaneous combination of tan sau and bong sau.  And then you return a po pai jern.  Your quan sau should come in behind his double palms and move him/her off their horse, unless they give up before you finish execting the quan sau.  Both po pai jern and quan sau can be found in Yip Man's 5th set of the dummy form.



Si-Je said:


> As for Chi sau becomeing a "competition". Once that happens, it's lost. But oddly chi sau is a bit of a competition. But that's when your missing the whole concept of chi sau. Which, lol! I'm talking all wise here, but everytime I do chi sau after awhile I find myself "competing" to get in on the person. I try not to to just let it happen but it's hard.
> You just are focusing on your forward pressure and intention and still not getting in, moving and flowing, still not in there, then I just end up trying to "make it Happen" . Works sometimes, but half the time I get myself in trouble.
> But, then of course. The only people I've ever done chi sau with are with Sifu or Dai-SiHing level folks, so thats not fair.
> You'll just never get in, so give it up and just feel the flow. Enjoy the slapp. lol!


 
If you are competing then you're thinking, which is not the thing to do.  No ego whatsoever.  If you relax and take the energy, you'll be in a better position to redirect and return as you should.  Your partner tells you what to do by what they give you.


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## Si-Je (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks, I know. I think too much. It's girl thing. lol!
But when we did his "version" of chi sau, I did relax. But, I'm unfortunately really stiff these days, because I haven't trained in like two years. Stiff enough for a WC person to take advantage of, but relaxed enough to cover the rest. 

I didn't want to be a smarty pants and go to his school and be a jerk. I wanted to see what he did and taught without so much of what I've learned before. It's just polite to begin with, and you learn more of what a teacher teaches, if you let them teach.

I was impressed that he didn't hurt me at all, and just taught. (while trying to find out what I know. lol! never tell will I)
But, he always talks about how I should have  a fighters "spirit" or fight to test my WC. He wants to bring out the *****. lol
That's why I take MA. I've got a beast, and I don't need to unleash it just to prove a point. I might talk mean and rough. But, that's why I hate the blitz "defense". I don't want to get that aggressive, and the "combat" aggressive schools make it such a point to fight.

****! I've been in fights my whole life. It just sucks. there is NO winner.
Just pain and trouble.
I don't want that anymore. 
I fight only when I HAVE to. or think I HAVE to. (sometimes, afterwards you realize that you really didn't have to fight. lol!)

I dont' want to 'challenge" people, or make a big fuss. I just want to train. I know I'm a pain in the *** student because I ask alot of questions and like to try new and old stuff. Crap. Cross training is the effect of all that. lol! I want to see what a Sifu would do against some good kicks TKD or JKD style, or some throws (I've totally lost the nerve to even try those anymore. lol! that's why MMA guys think that WC partners are "compliant". lol! you better comply otherwise you get hit and kicked really hard. lol!)

But, anyways, this guy is all about challenging and fighting to test your WC. Which I kinda agree, but would do it more "friendly" and with gear than he does. I don't want to prove to someone elese at their school that my arts better than theirs (that's so RUDE i just can't contemplate actually DOING that.! not to mention their livlyhood.)

Lol! I just hope he doesn't hit me one day. I couldn't take it. He wants to bring out the "warrior", that's what I try to supress. Don't bring her out! She's mean and ruthless.
I don't like her. She's ugly... That's why I study MA and especially WC. So I don't need her to defend myself.


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## Si-Je (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks, I know. I think too much. It's girl thing. lol!
But when we did his "version" of chi sau, I did relax. But, I'm unfortunately really stiff these days, because I haven't trained in like two years. Stiff enough for a WC person to take advantage of, but relaxed enough to cover the rest. 

I didn't want to be a smarty pants and go to his school and be a jerk. I wanted to see what he did and taught without so much of what I've learned before. It's just polite to begin with, and you learn more of what a teacher teaches, if you let them teach. (I guess I came off "mousy" by doing that. he wants to let the "beast" out.)
No beast, that's why I took MA to begin with, i've got the "beast". I don't need to learn to be more aggressive, I've got to control it. Every WC/WT teacher I've ever had or worked with always told me I should be more aggressive. lol! (what a way to confuse a bit bull, Mook Man!)
I don't want to bite.
anyways....
I was impressed that he didn't hurt me at all, and just taught. (while trying to find out what I know. lol! never tell will I)  ;p

But, he always talks about how I should have a fighters "spirit" or fight to test my WC. He wants to bring out the *****. lol
That's why I take MA. I've got a beast, and I don't need to unleash it just to prove a point. I might talk mean and rough, and mean every word. But,...  I hate the blitz "defense". Because it isn't a defense, it's offence, and yes... each are the cause and result of the other. 
I don't want to get that aggressive, and the "combat" aggressive schools make it such a point to fight.

****! I've been in fights my whole life. For real. I mean fights you could never win. Never. But you still fight because you have too. You don't win, you might just get to live. lol! 

there is NO winner in a fight.
Just pain and trouble.

I fight only when I HAVE to. or think I HAVE to. (sometimes, afterwards you realize that you really didn't have to fight. lol!)

I dont' want to 'challenge" people, or make a big fuss. I just want to train. I know I'm a pain in the *** student because I ask alot of questions and like to try new and old stuff. Crap. Cross training is the effect of all that. 

I want to see what a Sifu would do against some good kicks TKD or JKD style, or some throws (I've totally lost the nerve to even try those anymore. ouch, it just hurts to much to even try that **** anymore. It's why MMA guys think that WC partners are "compliant". 
Yeah, you'd learn to be compliant after hurting "yourself" trying to throw this guy.! can you imagine a MMA dude trying to take Sifu Fung to the ground?!! I'd love to see someone try to do that, which I'm sure someone did. I just wish I saw it. !

But, anyways, this guy is all about challenging and fighting to test your WC. Which I kinda agree, but would do it more "friendly" and with gear to not really hurt a potential friend, than he does. I don't want to prove to someone elese at their school that my arts better than theirs (that's so RUDE i just can't contemplate actually DOING that.! not to mention their livlyhood.)

Lol! I just hope he doesn't hit me one day. I couldn't take it. He wants to bring out the "warrior", that's what I try to supress. Don't bring her out! She's mean and ruthless.
I don't like her. She's ugly... That's why I study MA and especially WC. So I don't need her to defend me when the chips are down.


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## geezer (Aug 8, 2009)

Trueblood said:


> Other people have listed out what Chi Sau teaches, and I agree: it teaches important tools, but the drill is by no means comprehensive...
> 
> In my opinion, Chi Sau is to fighting as learning how to swing a hammer is to building a house.



And yet chi-sau is ever so much more complex than swinging a hammer. It's more like learning how to skillfully use _all your tools._ Still, learning to use tools is still a long way from having what it takes to build a house.

I think chi sau needs to be trained on _all levels_ from very gently and fluidly to very aggressively, merging into sparring. Too much of one or the other will shortchange you. When working at the _sparring_ end of the spectrum, you should not be playing tag. One light hit does not end a fight. IMHO when you find your opening, you should take control of your opponent and dominate him with multiple shots, maybe closing in with elbows, a sweep or throw, and if necessary follow him right down to the ground.


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## profesormental (Aug 9, 2009)

Greetings.

Chi Sao is a platform to learn a lot of skills in a developmental, evolutionary way, as has been stated.

Depending on the intent, intensity, and skills taught, it can prepare or hinder the execution of skills needed to survive a fight effectively.

If you link the training to actual scenarios, most probably the skills will be there when needed. So it depends on the actual training regimen, intensity, mental states while training, etc.


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## MattB (Aug 16, 2009)

idk! For me I think of chi sao as being a training tool. Its were you start to learn to apply WC positions and read/feel the energy of another and to flow from one position to another. you also learn how to trap, important to know in an inclose range.
 Can you learn to fight with just Chi Sao, No. It takes everything in WC combined to do that. So you cant just discard it and I think that you also cant just use Chi Sao  as a subsitute to teach real world applications either.
Granted I no expert I may be wrong.


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## chinaboxer (Sep 30, 2009)

I cover this question in my video tutorial titled "Why Chi Sau is important" part 1 and 2. you can view them here..


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## Poor Uke (Sep 30, 2009)

Chi sau is the soul of Wing Chun - simple


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## Si-Je (Oct 1, 2009)

I love chi sau and feel it is the heart of wing chun, but I'm thinking now it's both friend and foe to the wing chun practitioner.

Friend because it teaches sensitivity, flow, and re-direction with response in a pretty spontaneous manner without all out sparring.

But foe and woe to those that depend on it like the gospel. It's a teaching aide, not excatly where combat will always begin. Yet,.. it is the heart and meat of true close quarters combat. Again, it depends on how it is drilled and practiced. 

as in, where do you stop in chi sau? And I'm not talking about hitting your partner full force, I'm talking about "range". Where do you go when you get jammed or tangled up? Do you do a few movements and stop to restart the same drill? Or are you really feeling energy and intention or your partner and doing different things everytime?

I asked this question because I see many WC folks drilling set positions over and over in chi sau, stopping and starting over again to drill. Which has it's place in the early stages of learning new stuff, but you must go on from there. Plus, everyone worries about the hands so much they don't "cheat" and use the legs. 
If your simulating "fighting" you'd be kicking too, sweeping, fooking the neck, all of it, not just hands.

Wing Chun is about way more than just the hands. It seems everyone forgets this. Me too, when I do chi sau. Someone "traps" my hands and I just give up like a little girl. Then, oh! yeah. I can still kick you. lol!


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## chinaboxer (Oct 6, 2009)

Poor Uke said:


> Chi sau is the soul of Wing Chun - simple


soul of wing chun, heart of wing chun, i agree with both these statements. but it's also one of the most misunderstood.

so IMO i would say, it's definitely a "friend" when practiced correctly, and definitely a "foe" if you're not.


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## Si-Je (Oct 12, 2009)

chinaboxer said:


> soul of wing chun, heart of wing chun, i agree with both these statements. but it's also one of the most misunderstood.
> 
> so IMO i would say, it's definitely a "friend" when practiced correctly, and definitely a "foe" if you're not.


 
You just stole my words. lol! 
How do you know if your training it correctly? Trust your Sifu?
Trust your instinct?
Or just get hit enough?
lol!

I love chi sau, it's always big fun. And teaches me alot about close quarters fighting and defense. But, it lacks... Bridging.


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## chinaboxer (Oct 12, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> You just stole my words. lol!
> *How do you know if your training it correctly? Trust your Sifu?
> Trust your instinct?*
> Or just get hit enough?
> ...


that's the million dollar question. for me personally, i always revert back to the core "concepts and principles". if someone is teaching me a movement that requires me to rely on "muscle or speed" to work, then i instantly know that instructor is not for me, i'm not saying that it's not valid for him, but it's just not what i'm looking for at this time in my life. so yeah, i think you do have to "trust your instincts" as you put it.

Jin


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## Seeker (Oct 12, 2009)

I guess you have to know what bad chi sua is before you can know good? 

When I first started doing CS, I kept getting paired up with this older gentleman who had been there for about a year before me. He really liked to take advantage of new people to show off his 'skills' in attacking because he had learned all the little tricks that would trip up a newbie. Oh and he wasn't shy about hitting people hard. I got fat lip once and someone else got a bloody nose from him.

One day I got fed up with him, so when ever he moved I just wedged down his center between his arms and blast a palm into his chest. He got really ticked about this because it seemed to nulify any of the tricks he had been using and I got to hit him back pretty hard without me looking like the bad guy.

To me, this was a total waste of time for both of us. Because he relied on trickery to make his attacks work and I had to use something from another art to keep from getting a fat lip, or worse.

It wasn't until later that I got to work with the more skilled students that I began improving. I'm no where near good at CS, but isn't that part of the fun. Knowing you have more to learn.


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## Domino (Oct 14, 2009)

Seeker said:


> I guess you have to know what bad chi sua is before you can know good?
> 
> One day I got fed up with him, so when ever he moved I just wedged down his center between his arms and blast a palm into his chest. He got really ticked about this because it seemed to nulify any of the tricks he had been using and I got to hit him back pretty hard without me looking like the bad guy.


 
I agree you must know the errors to keep your chi sau correct / tight. 
I enjoy working with more experienced members, who can point these areas out.
And a hit is the only way to motivate to keep your structure tight.


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