# Stigma Against Women Who Wrestle



## Brownielox

Where I live and where I'm from, there's an apparent dislike or stigma against girls who grapple or do mixed martial arts. 

Even back in high school when I showed interest in wrestling, I got so many weird looks from my friends for liking that kind of sport of cheerleading or swimming. I was a gymnast for over 10 years, so I get why they'd want me to go cheerleading, but I've always liked the idea of taking someone out using well-placed strikes or a good choke. You wouldn't believe how many friends of mine dropped like flies when I took up kickboxing like y'all saw in the video sample I showed you.

And even in college now, as soon as I mention the fact that I wrestle to a guy, conversation's over...

So why do you think there's a stigma against girls who wrestle? It's the 21st century!


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## drop bear

Don't know. I don't think it happens much in MMA clubs but I have spoken to girls who have experienced that. 

So it is definitely a thing.

Having said that I know girlfriends who are not on board with the whole fighting buisness as well.


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## CB Jones

One of my co-workers 14 year old's HS wrestling coach called him and told him he needed to have a talk him about putting forth effort.  Apparently a 16 year old female has been whipping him every day in practice.

Come to find out the girl is really good looking  and my co-workers son is just scared to touch her because she is a good looking girl.....


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## Kung Fu Wang

Brownielox said:


> So why do you think there's a stigma against girls who wrestle?


I'm a Chinese wrestling coach. One day someone said he had strong rooting and nobody could uproot him. I taught the "elephant nose embracing" that day.

- You use one arm to surround your opponent's waist from behind.
- You use your forearm to strike up between his legs.
- You then lift him up off the ground.

I then realized my male students were afraid to use this technique on their female partners. Also this technique may not work well on a female student.


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## kuniggety

I think it's a mixture of insecurity or it just not being their thing. I wouldn't mind a chick being able to beat my *** but I can see how some guys might feel emasculated by it. In the "not being their thing" regard, some people just don't have an interest in MMA or grappling (they're crazy, I know) or for whatever reason don't see it as a women's sport.


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## Brownielox

CB Jones said:


> One of my co-workers 14 year old's HS wrestling coach called him and told him he needed to have a talk him about putting forth effort.  Apparently a 16 year old female has been whipping him every day in practice.
> 
> Come to find out the girl is really good looking  and my co-workers son is just scared to touch her because she is a good looking girl.....


HA!! Love it!! Sounds like the kind of thing I'd be into if my HS actually allowed girls on the team.....



kuniggety said:


> I think it's a mixture of insecurity or it just not being their thing. I wouldn't mind a chick being able to beat my *** but I can see how some guys might feel emasculated by it. In the "not being their thing" regard, some people just don't have an interest in MMA or grappling (they're crazy, I know) or for whatever reason don't see it as a women's sport.


I agree with the first part. That was my suspicion too. Without going too far into too many personal details, I have (had?) an ex who introduced me to catch wrestling/grappling/MMA. His insecurities only grew the following months after I whooped his ***, sorry to brag.....and I should've known that he only felt that way because he didn't think it was "proper" for a girl to beat him. He's lost to guys before, but when he lost to me??? Oh no....he couldn't have that.... >_>


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## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm a Chinese wrestling coach. One day someone said he had strong rooting and nobody could uproot him. I taught the "elephant nose embracing" that day.
> 
> - You use one arm to surround your opponent's waist from behind.
> - You use your forearm to strike up between his legs.
> - You then lift him up off the ground.
> 
> I then realized my male students were afraid to use this technique on their female partners. Also this technique may not work well on a female student.



I avoid front kicking girls because I tend to kick them in the boob.

But then they tend to excessively ***** about it.

My coach is merciless about the concept. Its legal. Deal.


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## Headhunter

Anyone who's got a problem with it needs to get into the 21st century. I know in my Thai boxing gym the best fighter there is a 17 year old girl who's won a British title recently and there's a number of good females. Not so much In my jiu jitsu club but there's a few girls in the kids class who do it.

There shouldn't be a stigma around it. Anyone can get attacked so anyone should be able to protect themselves


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> I avoid front kicking girls because I tend to kick them in the boob.
> 
> But then they tend to excessively ***** about it.
> 
> My coach is merciless about the concept. Its legal. Deal.



I assume he's also quite happy with kicking males in the nuts as well, which is only fair. Kicking people chest height is actually less effective than kicking other targets but if he wants you to be less effective I suppose it's his business.

The argument against women in combat sports is that seeing 'girls' ( they never call us women you notice) being hit, which is a nonsense frankly. I've been in martial arts fro decades and nearly 20 decades in MMA, pushing the limits for women is a daily occupation. I know many very good female MMA fighters and to the people who matter to them they are great, the people who don't matter, really don't matter.
You have to go your own way, do what is right for you. Slowly perception is changing about female fighters as MMA itself is more and more accepted as a mainstream sport.

On the subject of cheerleading, the sport not the dancey, stuff you see at football games etc, real cheerleading, which people have as many misconceptions about as they do women fighting is quite dangerous, very athletic and is fighting to be accepted as the sport it is. the stunts they do are terrifying and the teams are more than not co-ed. My daughter has had more injuries from cheer than ever she did from martial arts.

We don't have 'high school wrestling' in this country, wrestling itself isn't, despite Lancashire being the home of catch wrestling ( the original Snake Pit is still going)  popular here. Judo and BJJ is though, I haven't seen much if any discrimination against females in these though.

Whatever you do there will be people who think it's wrong, dump these and be with the people who want what you want for yourself.

You may have seen the news about the recent fire in the tower block in London, the Fire Commissioner for London is female, she worked her way up from being a firefighter dealing with the prejudices against women in the fire service and over 30 years has proved them all wrong and is an outstanding firefighter and leader. The chief police officer of London is a woman as is the chief ambulance officer, all women who have fought for their jobs in a previously male oriented world and have gained the respect of everyone, if you want it, work hard you will get where you want to be.


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## hoshin1600

Brownielox said:


> And even in college now, as soon as I mention the fact that I wrestle to a guy, conversation's over...


At college age I would say some guys have an ego problem. They are just leaving home and need to feel like they are not children anymore. If a woman can beat them up it can make them feel like a child again.
I am curious about what part of the world your from. Your description sounds more like a cultural issue.  
Also , many men find strong women attractive. But it's usually because they are confident themselves and it doesn't hurt their ego.


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## Buka

Brownielox said:


> Where I live and where I'm from, there's an apparent dislike or stigma against girls who grapple or do mixed martial arts.
> 
> Even back in high school when I showed interest in wrestling, I got so many weird looks from my friends for liking that kind of sport of cheerleading or swimming. I was a gymnast for over 10 years, so I get why they'd want me to go cheerleading, but I've always liked the idea of taking someone out using well-placed strikes or a good choke. You wouldn't believe how many friends of mine dropped like flies when I took up kickboxing like y'all saw in the video sample I showed you.
> 
> And even in college now, as soon as I mention the fact that I wrestle to a guy, conversation's over...
> 
> So why do you think there's a stigma against girls who wrestle? It's the 21st century!



Different social circles have different cultural tastes, I suppose. 
But there's something about a Tom Boy (my wife) in a pretty dress, that just makes me forget how to even talk.


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## Tez3

Buka said:


> Different social circles have different cultural tastes, I suppose.
> But there's something about a Tom Boy (my wife) in a pretty dress, that just makes me forget how to even talk.



Why though is your wife described as a 'tom boy' ? Not fitting into narrow confines of prescribed behaviour and dress doesn't make a female a tomboy, it makes her an individual.
I wonder if she thinks the same about you when you wear a dress?


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## hoshin1600

See that is the difference between men and women ....
If a woman doesn't wear underwear, men say it's sexy
If a man doesn't wear underwear,  women say eeeeeewwwww.


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## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> See that is the difference between men and women ....
> If a woman doesn't wear underwear, men say it's sexy
> If a man doesn't wear underwear,  women say eeeeeewwwww.



It depends on who and where, in Scotland for example men have long gone commando.


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## Brownielox

hoshin1600 said:


> At college age I would say some guys have an ego problem. They are just leaving home and need to feel like they are not children anymore. If a woman can beat them up it can make them feel like a child again.
> I am curious about what part of the world your from. Your description sounds more like a cultural issue.
> Also , many men find strong women attractive. But it's usually because they are confident themselves and it doesn't hurt their ego.


Southeast US. Haha I _would _agree with the leaving home part, if it weren't for the fact that A LOT of my guy friends starting acting like losers whenever I could finally beat them in armwrestling or actual wrestling. It probably didn't help that both of those happened in public, or at least in front of our other friends hahaha

Ha! I'd like to meet a man who actually likes my strength and isn't afraid of it...


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## Buka

Tez3 said:


> Why though is your wife described as a 'tom boy' ? Not fitting into narrow confines of prescribed behaviour and dress doesn't make a female a tomboy, it makes her an individual.
> I wonder if she thinks the same about you when you wear a dress?



Because she _is_ a tomboy. Here's the definition from the urban dictionry, seems to fit her best -
_
A young girl who would rather be playing football in the rain than out shopping and boy hunting. Hangs out with boys. Does not care about what other people think of her, nor does she judge others for the way they are. Very sporty, and does not follow the latest fashion trends. Does not make fun of what most people would call " nerds " or " geeks ", and in fact befriends them most of the time. _

Although she is no longer a "young girl", everything else is quite apt.


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## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> I've been in martial arts fro decades and nearly 20 decades in MMA, pushing the limits for women is a daily occupation.



20 decades in MMA?  I knew you were old, Tez.  But I didn't think you were THAT OLD


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## kuniggety

Tomboy is pretty common vernacular in the US. Does it have different connotations in the U.K.? I would call my wife a tomboy too. Doesn't wear makeup or dresses, likes to go hiking and play video games, etc. I'm not sure I could ever be with a "girly girl". After sex, it would just be like... now what? Because you don't actually have anything in common.


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## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> 20 decades in MMA?  I knew you were old, Tez.  But I didn't think you were THAT OLD



That's what happens when you are posting while watching the racing at Ascot on the television and shouting at it! We had a good day yesterday with a first and second in the same race, not so good today with a second. Saw quite a bit of my son-in-law looking very cool and collected in the heat. Female jockeys doing well getting rides at Ascot, need one to win! American horses are doing well.




kuniggety said:


> Tomboy is pretty common vernacular in the US. Does it have different connotations in the U.K.? I would call my wife a tomboy too. Doesn't wear makeup or dresses, likes to go hiking and play video games, etc. I'm not sure I could ever be with a "girly girl". After sex, it would just be like... now what? Because you don't actually have anything in common.




Girly girl and tomboy as descriptions of things not real females. We can be what ever we want surely without being labelled. Who says women who like hiking can't wear makeup, or someone who wears a dress can't play video games? Stop with this labelling and see women as women.


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## hoshin1600

Tez3 said:


> Girly girl and tomboy as descriptions of things not real females. We can be what ever we want surely without being labelled.


i understand what your saying but labels are equal opportunity, guys are jocks, motorheads, nerds, dorks and many other names.  its not always a bad thing.  the OP seems to like the label badass


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## Brownielox

hoshin1600 said:


> i understand what your saying but labels are equal opportunity, guys are jocks, motorheads, nerds, dorks and many other names.  its not always a bad thing.  the OP seems to like the label badass


Haha helllll yeah!!!


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## kuniggety

Tez3 said:


> Girly girl and tomboy as descriptions of things not real females. We can be what ever we want surely without being labelled. Who says women who like hiking can't wear makeup, or someone who wears a dress can't play video games? Stop with this labelling and see women as women.



Labels are a natural part of language and culture. Prejudiced and biases are natural instincts for humans. It's when they're derogatory or spiteful that it's an issue. Growing up, I was quite the nerd. It's a label but it is what it is. Just because I call something how I see it doesn't mean I don't see women as women. I respect women as much as I do any man.


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## Tez3

kuniggety said:


> Labels are a natural part of language and culture. Prejudiced and biases are natural instincts for humans. It's when they're derogatory or spiteful that it's an issue. Growing up, I was quite the nerd. It's a label but it is what it is. Just because I call something how I see it doesn't mean I don't see women as women. I respect women as much as I do any man.



Do you think men or women should decide whether 'tomboy' and 'girly girl' are wrong labels? I wouldn't say prejudices and biases are natural instincts but learned behaviours. I would say they are a problem even if not derogatory or spiteful.

In the UK we rarely use the word 'jocks' to describe male athletic types as Jocks to us are Scottish people _male and female_. We tend not to do the nerd/dork/motorheads thing either. Our 'labels' if you like are more individual to the person regardless of gender.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I assume he's also quite happy with kicking males in the nuts as well, which is only fair. Kicking people chest height is actually less effective than kicking other targets but if he wants you to be less effective I suppose it's his business.



Yes he is.

And the liver.


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## Buka

My wife is a Tomboy.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Yes he is.
> 
> And the liver.



Liver is a good shot, the boobs aren't. In a real fight it won't stop a female attacker because it's not nearly as painful as men imagine, it's mostly subcutaneous fat. I think your female students are 'squealing' because they perceive you going for a sexual target. I would go that bit lower and catch the diaphragm, much more effective and the target you'll see female MT fighters go for as I was taught.


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## Tez3

Buka said:


> My wife is a Tomboy.



Don't Call My Daughter A Tomboy! | HuffPost UK

Girlie Girl vs. One of the Guys


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Liver is a good shot, the boobs aren't. In a real fight it won't stop a female attacker because it's not nearly as painful as men imagine, it's mostly subcutaneous fat. I think your female students are 'squealing' because they perceive you going for a sexual target. I would go that bit lower and catch the diaphragm, much more effective and the target you'll see female MT fighters go for as I was taught.



Yeah. The liver is kind of a sneaky integrated MMA thing that filtered down to our club because we kind of cross train.

It murders people.

Have a look at the gif. It took me a little while to hunt down.


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## Buka

Tez3 said:


> Don't Call My Daughter A Tomboy! | HuffPost UK
> 
> Girlie Girl vs. One of the Guys



I just filled in my wife about what this thread was discussing. Then I read her the Huffington article. She thought about it, said, "yeah, that's probably right." Then she paused for a few more seconds, and said, 
"Tomboy had been part of our language since I was born, and since I'm still here, they can all go F themselves and the politically correct horses they rode in on. Bunch of pussy A-holes." 

So says my Tomboy wife.


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## drop bear

By the way lets just put this out there.


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## Buka

Typical Tomboy....


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## Brownielox

Buka said:


> I just filled in my wife about what this thread was discussing. Then I read her the Huffington article. She thought about it, said, "yeah, that's probably right." Then she paused for a few more seconds, and said,
> "Tomboy had been part of our language since I was born, and since I'm still here, they can all go F themselves and the politically correct horses they rode in on. Bunch of pussy A-holes."
> 
> So says my Tomboy wife.


Agreed! I'm really sick of this 'politically-correctness' being shoved down our throats these days...


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## Tez3

Buka said:


> I just filled in my wife about what this thread was discussing. Then I read her the Huffington article. She thought about it, said, "yeah, that's probably right." Then she paused for a few more seconds, and said,
> "Tomboy had been part of our language since I was born, and since I'm still here, they can all go F themselves and the politically correct horses they rode in on. Bunch of pussy A-holes."
> 
> So says my Tomboy wife.





Brownielox said:


> Agreed! I'm really sick of this 'politically-correctness' being shoved down our throats these days...



I'm British not politically correct. I'm also not being offensive, I am asking people to think.
I am also a Rainbow, Brownie and Guide leader with responsibility for girls aged 5-14, and funnily enough they don't like being labelled 'tomboy' and especially don't like being called 'girly girls' they are what they are ...themselves. They want to be able to do what they enjoy doing without comments, is that too much to ask? they want to be seen as their unique selves, not pigeon holed into boxes. They want to be able to do things without comments that it's unusual for a girl. It's not politically correct to want girls to be able to go out and enjoy.
Think about it like this, as a bloke you enjoy knitting/sewing/ shopping, should you be called a 'janegirl' or similar? It's such an outdated way of thinking about things, old fashioned which is what our girls pointed out, times have moved on and changed, that's again nothing to do with political correctness ( perhaps you get more of that than we do) it's about treating people as individuals. We have female Prime Ministers, Presidents, Heads of State, fire chiefs, senior police officers and military, senior politicians and government ministers etc etc now yet you are still clinging to old fashioned views that put women in a box. 
Girls Don’t Like Being Called Tomboys Anymore. Here’s Why… - Mpora

As for being offensive just because you don't like what someone says.....


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## Tez3

This last year's survey, totally the girl's views, not censored, or prodded towards certain answers, *no political correctness*. Just girls being honest.
https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/glob...and-campaigns/girls-attitudes-survey-2016.pdf


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## CB Jones

Tez, maybe that is just a cultural difference.  In America, most women don't mind being called a tom-boys or girlie-girls....many are proud to it.


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## Tez3

CB Jones said:


> Tez, maybe that is just a cultural difference.  In America, most women don't mind being called a tom-boys or girlie-girls....many are proud to it.



I imagine it is sadly.
We teach girls that they are unique, that they don't have to fit any boxes, they can go climb a mountain wearing makeup if they want to, they can sit and knit wearing Doc Martin boots and ripped jeans if they wish, that in fact they don't have to fit into stereotypes which of course 'girly girl' and tomboy' are.
This is the UK campaign to get girls and women into sport, which of course the 'girly girl' appellation works against, one can't be a 'girly girl' and get sweaty and physical, that's what 'tomboys' do, they can't of course get dressed up and wear high heels. We have to teach young girls that they can be and do whatever they want without being labelled or mocked.
This girl can - This Girl Can

This Girl Can: campaign launches new ad – video


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## kuniggety

Tez3 said:


> Do you think men or women should decide whether 'tomboy' and 'girly girl' are wrong labels? I wouldn't say prejudices and biases are natural instincts but learned behaviours. I would say they are a problem even if not derogatory or spiteful.



The person it is being applied to. If they don't like it, then they shouldn't be called it.

I've studied human psychology (for a brief while I thought about majoring in psychology) and have had to study cognitive biases in my intelligence studies. Every time we make an assumption about someone, educated as it might be, it is a prejudice because we are judging without having all of the information. It's the way our minds work... take what we see and know and automatically start deducing the rest. The important part is recognizing the fallacies in this and understanding that it is important to continually take in information and change your opinions based on that new information. We are all naturally prejudice and biased. Common biases are confirmation bias where we tend to cue in on information that confirms our thoughts and reject those that change it. As I said, it's important to just realize this is happening. I think due to social issues such as with race, gender, and religion, the word prejudice has taken on negative connotations. You can be a relatively open minded person and you still have prejudices.

I think the difference in perspective on labels that you're taking and what seems to be most of the Americans on this board is that we don't view it as a confining box. A girly girl isn't getting dirty because someone labeled her as a girly girl... it's because she puts the time and effort into getting her nails done and doesn't want to ruin them. It doesn't mean she can't but the label is used because of her preference of not getting dirty. A girl or boy should be able to do whatever they want. Applying a label based on their preference isn't telling them that they have to stay in some arbitrarily designed set of rules for such label.


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## Tez3

kuniggety said:


> A girly girl isn't getting dirty because someone labeled her as a girly girl... it's because she puts the time and effort into getting her nails done and doesn't want to ruin them



I have also taken psychology and you are misunderstanding the above. Of course she isn't doing it because she has been labelled as a girly girl by someone, she is doing it because she has been raised to be a girly girl which is what I meant. Young children are free from biased judgements, they don't see colour or even notice much about gender but this is changed by adults. 'Boys don't cry', 'girls don't fight', boys behave one way girls another according to many. The difficulties I have teaching females to fight is because they aren't brought up to be tough, boys are even if they don't want to be. Girls are expected by many to be nurturing not punching or kicking in martial arts, boys are expected by the same people to cultivate 'manly' pursuits hence when girls want to do the same as boys they are called 'tomboys' because they can't possibly be 'proper' girls can they? Girls are 'sugar and spice and all things nice' and boys, well you know the rhyme.  
Fedor: Women shouldn’t fight. MMA is for men


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## Buka

My wife is STILL a Tomboy.


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## CB Jones

Buka said:


> Typical Tomboy....
> 
> View attachment 20840










Buka said:


> My wife is STILL a Tomboy.



The question I have is.....are you still sporting the stache?


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## Buka

CB Jones said:


> The question I have is.....are you still sporting the stache?



Unfortunately, yes. I say that because I'm a beard guy. But, alas, various jobs I've had, including at the present, do not allow beards. Sons-O-bitches!


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## CB Jones

Buka said:


> Unfortunately, yes. I say that because I'm a beard guy. But, alas, various jobs I've had, including at the present, do not allow beards. Sons-O-bitches!



Awesome.  I go back and forth between beard and goatee.

After a couple years My wife finally accepted that she married an extra from the Vikings.


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## Tez3

CB Jones said:


> Awesome.  I go back and forth between beard and goatee.
> 
> After a couple years My wife finally accepted that she married an extra from the Vikings.



You need beads in the beard then Runic Hair/Beard Rings


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Do you think men or women should decide whether 'tomboy' and 'girly girl' are wrong labels? I wouldn't say prejudices and biases are natural instincts but learned behaviours. I would say they are a problem even if not derogatory or spiteful.
> 
> In the UK we rarely use the word 'jocks' to describe male athletic types as Jocks to us are Scottish people _male and female_. We tend not to do the nerd/dork/motorheads thing either. Our 'labels' if you like are more individual to the person regardless of gender.


Labels are never correct, but that doesn't make them wrong. To call me a "martial artist" isn't incorrect, but it certainly misses the entire rest of what/who I am. The same goes for calling me a "consultant", "trainer", "professional speaker", or "High-I" (DISC behavior model). But all are effective descriptors of that facet of me.

Labels don't have to restrict anyone. They simply let us communicate something about the person. "Tomboy" is no more harmful than "long-haired" or "engineer", so long as it's not used in a hurtful way.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I'm British not politically correct. I'm also not being offensive, I am asking people to think.
> I am also a Rainbow, Brownie and Guide leader with responsibility for girls aged 5-14, and funnily enough they don't like being labelled 'tomboy' and especially don't like being called 'girly girls' they are what they are ...themselves. They want to be able to do what they enjoy doing without comments, is that too much to ask? they want to be seen as their unique selves, not pigeon holed into boxes. They want to be able to do things without comments that it's unusual for a girl. It's not politically correct to want girls to be able to go out and enjoy.
> Think about it like this, as a bloke you enjoy knitting/sewing/ shopping, should you be called a 'janegirl' or similar? It's such an outdated way of thinking about things, old fashioned which is what our girls pointed out, times have moved on and changed, that's again nothing to do with political correctness ( perhaps you get more of that than we do) it's about treating people as individuals. We have female Prime Ministers, Presidents, Heads of State, fire chiefs, senior police officers and military, senior politicians and government ministers etc etc now yet you are still clinging to old fashioned views that put women in a box.
> Girls Don’t Like Being Called Tomboys Anymore. Here’s Why… - Mpora
> 
> As for being offensive just because you don't like what someone says.....


Once upon a time, "tomboy" was an unusual thing for a girl to be called. These days, it accurately describes about half the women and girls I know - maybe more than half. Just because a term is used to describe someone, that doesn't mean they're being called something un-feminine (whatever that would actually mean). There are some labels that work across genders (though some of them didn't originally), like geek, nerd, punk, rocker, hipster, bookish, etc. And there are some that tend to apply to one gender or the other, like tomboy, macho, etc. I don't care what someone calls me - I care about why they call me that. If someone wants to call me a nerd, I'm okay with that if they say it because I am knowledgeable (a common usage among folks I know). If the call me that in an attempt to demean me, it won't ruffle my feathers, but I will probably like them a bit less for their intent.


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## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> Tez, maybe that is just a cultural difference.  In America, most women don't mind being called a tom-boys or girlie-girls....many are proud to it.


Agreed. I know women who proudly claim each of those. I can think of two who proudly claim both.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I imagine it is sadly.
> We teach girls that they are unique, that they don't have to fit any boxes, they can go climb a mountain wearing makeup if they want to, they can sit and knit wearing Doc Martin boots and ripped jeans if they wish, that in fact they don't have to fit into stereotypes which of course 'girly girl' and tomboy' are.
> This is the UK campaign to get girls and women into sport, which of course the 'girly girl' appellation works against, one can't be a 'girly girl' and get sweaty and physical, that's what 'tomboys' do, they can't of course get dressed up and wear high heels. We have to teach young girls that they can be and do whatever they want without being labelled or mocked.
> This girl can - This Girl Can
> 
> This Girl Can: campaign launches new ad – video


Again, you seem to be saying the labels limit them somehow. I know two women who will proudly claim to be both girly-girl and tomboy (not one each, both claiming both). They are precisely the kind of person you're talking about: they might hike with makeup and jewelry if that's what they're wearing when the opportunity presents. (Come to think of it, I'm the male version of that. I've hiked in a suit and tie, because I had one on and found out there was a waterfall a mile or two down a trail nearby.)


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I have also taken psychology and you are misunderstanding the above. Of course she isn't doing it because she has been labelled as a girly girl by someone, she is doing it because she has been raised to be a girly girl which is what I meant. Young children are free from biased judgements, they don't see colour or even notice much about gender but this is changed by adults. 'Boys don't cry', 'girls don't fight', boys behave one way girls another according to many. The difficulties I have teaching females to fight is because they aren't brought up to be tough, boys are even if they don't want to be. Girls are expected by many to be nurturing not punching or kicking in martial arts, boys are expected by the same people to cultivate 'manly' pursuits hence when girls want to do the same as boys they are called 'tomboys' because they can't possibly be 'proper' girls can they? Girls are 'sugar and spice and all things nice' and boys, well you know the rhyme.
> Fedor: Women shouldn’t fight. MMA is for men


That's an entirely different issue than using descriptive labels. In the US, tomboy isn't seen as a negative label by anyone I know. The cultural upbringing continues to be something of an issue (note that we don't have a decent descriptive word for a boy who likes to go out and climb trees, nor one I'm aware of for a boy who is clean and fastidious). Some of the labels came from that problem, but they don't necessarily continue the issue, once they are embraced with a different meaning and intent.


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## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> Awesome.  I go back and forth between beard and goatee.
> 
> After a couple years My wife finally accepted that she married an extra from the Vikings.


My wife has never known me without my beard. She has warned me that if I ever remove it, she won't recognize me, and I'll be in danger in my own house.


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## CB Jones

Tez3 said:


> You need beads in the beard then Runic Hair/Beard Rings



 How do you know I don't already have them. 

I once braided my goatee only to find out that every time I opened my mouth it brought tears to me eyes due to it being braided too tight....total fail.


Labels don't bother me that much.  Take me for example, I am totally fine labeled as eye candy.


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## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Again, you seem to be saying the labels limit them somehow. I know two women who will proudly claim to be both girly-girl and tomboy (not one each, both claiming both). They are precisely the kind of person you're talking about: they might hike with makeup and jewelry if that's what they're wearing when the opportunity presents. (Come to think of it, I'm the male version of that. I've hiked in a suit and tie, because I had one on and found out there was a waterfall a mile or two down a trail nearby.)



Why call them anything? Why not call them by their name and have done with it? The limiting is in the eye of the person calling them 'tomboys' and girly girls, ( the latter is very twee and somewhat cringeworthy) As I said it's old fashioned now to call girls these, it's luckily dying out. This thread is the first time I've heard it for a very long time. I think things are culturally different between us, more perhaps than we think. Call someone a girly girl here now and she'll look at you with pity for being a dinosaur, the Spice Girls are history, what we have now is Emma Watson, Malala, J K Rowling, Nicola Adams, Hope Powell and Caitlin Moran all strong women.

You can all think I'm wrong of course, but I work with hundreds of girls and young women, we talk and the old fashioned ideas of what girls should be, how they are described, how they are treated are different now. Do you really *need* to call girls tomboys and girlygirls? Or can you think of them as just being unique human beings?


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Why call them anything? Why not call them by their name and have done with it? The limiting is in the eye of the person calling them 'tomboys' and girly girls, ( the latter is very twee and somewhat cringeworthy) As I said it's old fashioned now to call girls these, it's luckily dying out. This thread is the first time I've heard it for a very long time. I think things are culturally different between us, more perhaps than we think. Call someone a girly girl here now and she'll look at you with pity for being a dinosaur, the Spice Girls are history, what we have now is Emma Watson, Malala, J K Rowling, Nicola Adams, Hope Powell and Caitlin Moran all strong women.
> 
> You can all think I'm wrong of course, but I work with hundreds of girls and young women, we talk and the old fashioned ideas of what girls should be, how they are described, how they are treated are different now. Do you really *need* to call girls tomboys and girlygirls? Or can you think of them as just being unique human beings?


We use words to describe people. If someone can't use any labels, they can only call me Gerry. When someone asks for a description, they'd have to stop there, because any description is a label. They can't say I'm a man, have brown hair, like to hike, or anything else, because all of those are labels. Or, they could call me an outdoorsy guy who's a bit of a clothes horse and has brown hair. None of that changes or controls who I am - it describes who I am...rather, part of who I am.

And I'll repeat that there are women I know who call themselves tomboy and/or girly-girl. In fact, I don't hear those terms used often by men - far more often by women, and mostly to describe themselves.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> My wife has never known me without my beard. She has warned me that if I ever remove it, she won't recognize me, and I'll be in danger in my own house.


I just shaved my goatee 2 months ago. I had it for 18 years and felt like a change was in order.  When my wife met me for lunch that day, the only reason she recognized me was because I had our daughters with me.  She'd never seen me without it.

I'm growing it back.  I waited until summer break where I can go the 2 weeks or so without shaving.


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## JR 137

Buka said:


> Typical Tomboy....
> 
> View attachment 20840


Looking at that picture, I'd say 80s porn star or cop.  Since I knew you're a cop, I figure maybe both?


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## CB Jones

JR 137 said:


> I just shaved my goatee 2 months ago.


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## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> We use words to describe people. If someone can't use any labels, they can only call me Gerry. When someone asks for a description, they'd have to stop there, because any description is a label. They can't say I'm a man, have brown hair, like to hike, or anything else, because all of those are labels. Or, they could call me an outdoorsy guy who's a bit of a clothes horse and has brown hair. None of that changes or controls who I am - it describes who I am...rather, part of who I am.
> 
> And I'll repeat that there are women I know who call themselves tomboy and/or girly-girl. In fact, I don't hear those terms used often by men - far more often by women, and mostly to describe themselves.



Again though that is different from here and Europe, tomboy and girly girl are slang terms not adjectives. Here girly girl is just about synonymous with Essex girl which is not a compliment. This American site instruction girls how to be girly girls is actually pretty vomit inducing.  How to Be Girly and More Feminine


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Once upon a time, "tomboy" was an unusual thing for a girl to be called. These days, it accurately describes about half the women and girls I know - maybe more than half. Just because a term is used to describe someone, that doesn't mean they're being called something un-feminine (whatever that would actually mean). There are some labels that work across genders (though some of them didn't originally), like geek, nerd, punk, rocker, hipster, bookish, etc. And there are some that tend to apply to one gender or the other, like tomboy, macho, etc. I don't care what someone calls me - I care about why they call me that. If someone wants to call me a nerd, I'm okay with that if they say it because I am knowledgeable (a common usage among folks I know). If the call me that in an attempt to demean me, it won't ruffle my feathers, but I will probably like them a bit less for their intent.



I live in a society that drops the C bomb as a compliment. Tom boy would not even bee a blip.


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## kuniggety

Tez3 said:


> Again though that is different from here and Europe, tomboy and girly girl are slang terms not adjectives. Here girly girl is just about synonymous with Essex girl which is not a compliment. This American site instruction girls how to be girly girls is actually pretty vomit inducing.  How to Be Girly and More Feminine



It's a girly-girl website. It doesn't capture the opinion or attitude of all Americans. We have 5 x the population of the UK spread out over 40 x the land area. The amount of subcultures we have is pretty substantial. But I still think think it's okay for websites like that to exist. I might not be into it, or even see the appeal, but I respect that others are into it.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> I live in a society that drops the C bomb as a compliment. Tom boy would not even bee a blip.



Oh I know, it's the land where 'brace yourself Sheila' is deemed foreplay.


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## Tez3

kuniggety said:


> It's a girly-girl website. It doesn't capture the opinion or attitude of all Americans. We have 5 x the population of the UK spread out over 40 x the land area. The amount of subcultures we have is pretty substantial. But I still think think it's okay for websites like that to exist. I might not be into it, or even see the appeal, but I respect that others are into it.



Even the part about gossiping about others? In the age of internet bullying? Okay.


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## Buka

JR 137 said:


> Looking at that picture, I'd say 80s porn star or cop.  Since I knew you're a cop, I figure maybe both?



Well, you know, the eighties were....the eighties.


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## Knapf

Brownielox said:


> And even in college now, as soon as I mention the fact that I wrestle to a guy, conversation's over...


Huh?If a woman told me that she wrestles I would prolong the conversation


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## CB Jones

Knapf said:


> Huh?If a woman told me that she wrestles I would prolong the conversation



You have to remember college is full of soft millennial guys.


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## Knapf

CB Jones said:


> You have to remember college is full of soft millennial guys.


They just don't know how to appreciate the oppurtunity


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## Knapf

sorry double post


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## Tez3

CB Jones said:


> You have to remember college is full of soft millennial guys.



I don't know if we have wrestlers at unis here, it's not a huge sport countrywide but we have a huge lot of martial arts clubs including MMA in universities here as well as a lot of rugby. sports are very popular at uni especially contact sports as well as the all out warfare that is hockey ( the proper sort, on grass )


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## Brownielox

Knapf said:


> Huh?If a woman told me that she wrestles I would prolong the conversation


Haha _thank you_! I don't run into a lot of that though....



CB Jones said:


> You have to remember college is full of soft millennial guys.



Valid point - but not _all _millennials are like that haha. The majority that I've met, I'd agree with you 



Knapf said:


> They just don't know how to appreciate the oppurtunity



And another valid point. I guess most of them just haven't caught up with the ages and still think we can't do contact sports....


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

CB Jones said:


> You have to remember college is full of soft millennial guys.


Eh, as one of those millenials, I have the same response as Knapf


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## Tez3

Brownielox said:


> guess most of them just haven't caught up with the ages and still think we can't do contact sports....



Few people think that here now, our women's rugby teams are hugely popular, after the London Olympics and Nicola Adams historic gold medal, female boxing is also getting big with matches being shown on mainstream television. We've got more and more women into MMA and as I said, hockey is a hugely physical game when played by women. We've had huge encouragement to get women and girls into sports here, with the 'Girls can' campaign and the 'Women in Sport' organisation. Home - Women In Sport


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## JR 137

CB Jones said:


> You have to remember college is full of soft millennial guys.


The same millennials who needed mental counseling, sand and water tables, and therapy dogs because the person they voted for didn't get into office.  The same millennials who were too distraught to take exams.

I saw a great thing online a while back.  Went something like this...

1944: Facing sure death, a bunch of 18-24 year old men storm the beaches of Normandy.  Despite being shot at, having explosions all around them and watching countless fellow troops die, they forge ahead and prevail.

2016: A bunch of 18-24 year old men and women are far too traumatized and distraught to leave their dorm rooms because the person they voted for didn't win.  Professors are forced to excuse them from exams, and extra mental health professionals are called in to help them cope with the crisis.

WHAT THE F&@K HAS HAPPENED TO OUR SOCIETY??!!!

Yeah, if it's guys like these, you can do so much better @stingrae.

If a lady I was interested in getting to know better told me she wrestled, it would definitely fast track the falling in love process for me.  Especially if she could beat me.  So long as she didn't taunt me and call me the P-word in front of her friends and mine afterwards.


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## JR 137

And for the record, my friends and I voted for Al Gore when we were in college.  Everyone showed up the next day to class and carried on just fine.  We said "that sucks" and moved on with our lives.  No tears, no therapy dogs, no nothing.


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## kuniggety

JR 137 said:


> And for the record, my friends and I voted for Al Gore when we were in college.  Everyone showed up the next day to class and carried on just fine.  We said "that sucks" and moved on with our lives.  No tears, no therapy dogs, no nothing.



I'm, by law, not allowed to make disparaging remarks about the POTUS. I've never given a **** about politics anyways though.


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## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> 2016: A bunch of 18-24 year old men and women are far too traumatized and distraught to leave their dorm rooms because the person they voted for didn't win. Professors are forced to excuse them from exams, and extra mental health professionals are called in to help them cope with the crisis.




However you still have the larger amount of people who join the military, the police forces, who continue the political battling for what they believe in etc.  Those 'entitled' ones have always been there, they are just more visible these days with social media and 'reality' television. There's always been those who hide behind their family money, who wimp out when it's time to serve their country in the military, money can buy many things. Poor people do not have the luxury of being wimps. They have to fight everyday.

Young people should be politically aware, should fight for what they believe in, most do. One can accept an election result but still carry on campaigning for what you believe in, making the world better is a young person's job, they have the energy and passion. Most do, it doesn't matter what your political beliefs are, young people should be encouraged, no one should sit and shrug their shoulders when they see injustice, bad political decisions etc. A common response here is 'accept the election vote and shut up', they two things are very different, you accept the decision of the people of course but you also continue fighting for what you think is right. I'd suggest that if you can't continue the fight when things go the wrong way for you then you didn't believe in the fight to start with, it was just a 'fashionable' thing to do. Real people will continue demonstrating, fighting for their cause etc and this is what is needed to ensure democracy not people popping up every election time to do a bit of volunteering to look good but people willing to work when things don't go their way.


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## moonhill99

Brownielox said:


> Where I live and where I'm from, there's an apparent dislike or stigma against girls who grapple or do mixed martial arts.
> 
> Even back in high school when I showed interest in wrestling, I got so many weird looks from my friends for liking that kind of sport of cheerleading or swimming. I was a gymnast for over 10 years, so I get why they'd want me to go cheerleading, but I've always liked the idea of taking someone out using well-placed strikes or a good choke. You wouldn't believe how many friends of mine dropped like flies when I took up kickboxing like y'all saw in the video sample I showed you.
> 
> And even in college now, as soon as I mention the fact that I wrestle to a guy, conversation's over...
> 
> So why do you think there's a stigma against girls who wrestle? It's the 21st century!



What country are you in? This will help with culture issue.

In the US and British society boxing, kickboxing, mixed martial arts, BJJ, Judo and wrestling so on is very common among girls.


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## moonhill99

Brownielox said:


> Where I live and where I'm from, there's an apparent dislike or stigma against girls who grapple or do mixed martial arts.
> 
> Even back in high school when I showed interest in wrestling, I got so many weird looks from my friends for liking that kind of sport of cheerleading or swimming. I was a gymnast for over 10 years, so I get why they'd want me to go cheerleading, but I've always liked the idea of taking someone out using well-placed strikes or a good choke. You wouldn't believe how many friends of mine dropped like flies when I took up kickboxing like y'all saw in the video sample I showed you.
> 
> And even in college now, as soon as I mention the fact that I wrestle to a guy, conversation's over...
> 
> So why do you think there's a stigma against girls who wrestle? It's the 21st century!



May be you


Tez3 said:


> Again though that is different from here and Europe, tomboy and girly girl are slang terms not adjectives. Here girly girl is just about synonymous with Essex girl which is not a compliment. This American site instruction girls how to be girly girls is actually pretty vomit inducing.  How to Be Girly and More Feminine



I'm sorry I don't understand are you saying there some teaching in US to make girls more feminine and in the UK girls more tomboy.

There many girls in US that would fit that tomboy definition but say there teaching them to be less tomboy?


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## moonhill99

Also keep in mind doing agricultural society before capitalism doing monarchy females worked on the land and many times even kids had to help the mom and dad work on the land.

Doing the industrial revolution females worked in factories.

Even doing ww2 females worked in factories.

It is just a modern PR saying females before never worked in factories or the land and where very girly.

If you look at history females worked. So this girly girly thing is modern thing the PR invented and many people are buying it.


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## Tez3

moonhill99 said:


> I'm sorry I don't understand are you saying there some teaching in US to make girls more feminine and in the UK girls more tomboy.
> 
> There many girls in US that would fit that tomboy definition but say there teaching them to be less tomboy?



No, I'm not saying that at all. Labelling girls as tomboys would be fine if it didn't have so many negative connotations. Often when people say that they mean these girls don't fit in with many societies accepted definition of what is feminine, that they are somehow less feminine and more masculine which is deemed as 'not a good thing'. It's the definition which like many words that flow between the Atlantic changes about half way through the crossing. 'tomboy' here will get you odd looks because it's more and more accepted that females are females regardless of how they look and behave. There activities don't make them any less female and doesn't make them into wannabe boys. People have said we label people and it's harmless, however when we look at a girl would we label her 'tart', 'slut' or 'prude' based on her clothing?  Why then label her as a 'girly girl' or 'tomboy', they are less labels more judgements. Saying we label everyone, judging them has always gone on, is that a reason to accept it? isn't it time to stop judging and labelling women based on their clothing and activities?
The Girly Girl vs. The Tomboy

Tomboy with a Girly Streak - TV Tropes

and in case you think the issue is not important here's an academic study, it makes interesting reading.  http://research.gold.ac.uk/3603/2/05_Paechter.11Oct09.pdf


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## Brownielox

moonhill99 said:


> What country are you in? This will help with culture issue.
> 
> In the US and British society boxing, kickboxing, mixed martial arts, BJJ, Judo and wrestling so on is very common among girls.


I'm from US haha


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## hoshin1600

Tez3 said:


> You can all think I'm wrong of course, but I work with hundreds of girls and young women, we talk and the old fashioned ideas of what girls should be, how they are described,


so in the old days they were brainwashed and told to be girly girls, and today they are brain washed and told to be social justice warriors and told what is the correct way to think and behave...dosnt look like much has changed ,,, just the agenda from the adults.


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## Tez3

hoshin1600 said:


> so in the old days they were brainwashed and told to be girly girls, and today they are brain washed and told to be social justice warriors and told what is the correct way to think and behave...dosnt look like much has changed ,,, just the agenda from the adults.



No idea what a 'social justice warrior' is supposed to be. No, girls should be brought up to be what they want to be. This is what I and my Guiding sisters campaign for, each girl is unique. We don't tell them what to think and behave, we want them to see the possibilities they have. In countries and we are in many countries we campaign for girls to go to school, for child marriages to be banned and for things like affordable sanitary products and underwear so they can go to school during their periods. We campaign for girls not to be judged by their body shape and the size of their breasts, against body shaming and also against bullying. before you say you don't do any of this remember we are the world's biggest charity for girls with over 10 million members in 145 countries including places that you wouldn't imagine an organisation such as ours existing such as Syrian refugee camps and war zones as well as places where to be female is to be oppressed. We've been doing this for over 100 years.

This is a letter from a Syrian Guide leader, the programmes she talks about are the ones we also do with our girls, one as you see is called 'Free being me'. Girls all around the world are doing this.


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## Steve

kuniggety said:


> I'm, by law, not allowed to make disparaging remarks about the POTUS. I've never given a **** about politics anyways though.


I thought you were a veteran.   You're still active duty?


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## Steve

I think in the USA, as I suspect in Europe, there is a keen interest in how to raise girls to be confident and successful, by whatever measure they choose.  We worry about body image problems and all the same concerns you have expressed.   I don't think we are that different.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/how-to-be-feminine-in-2016/


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## kuniggety

Steve said:


> I thought you were a veteran.   You're still active duty?



Yeah. 4 1/2 more years until I hit that magic 20... then gotta decide if I want to keep going or start a second career.


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## drop bear

this just happened recently.


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