# Why do Ip Man's sons do Chum Kiu different?



## Jaz (Jun 2, 2021)

Both Ip Chun and Ip Ching were there when their father filmed himself doing the Chum Kiu form. If this was to preserve the art, why do Ip Man's sons do the form differently? Check the video to see what I mean:


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2021)

I am not an authority on Wing Chun, I only learned Siu lum tao. BUt in Chinese martial arts things are not written in stone and you get variations from generation to generation and from student to student and Ip Man did not teach everyone the same way so there can be many reasons as to why they do things different. As one of my shifus (from a different style said) no two people are the same so there are variations.

As far a wing chun goes, I think Ip Ching was taller than Ip Chun is. I don't know this for sure, never having meant Ip Chun. But Ip Ching was taller than I expected him to be.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not an authority on Wing Chun, I only learned Siu lum tao. BUt in Chinese martial arts things are not written in stone and you get variations from generation to generation and from student to student and Ip Man did not teach everyone the same way so there can be many reasons as to why they do things different. As one of my shifus (from a different style said - Chinese, trained in China) no two people are the same so there are variations.
> 
> As far a wing chun goes, I think Ip Ching was taller than Ip Chun is. I don't know this for sure, never having meant Ip Chun. But Ip Ching was taller than I expected him to be.


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## Martial D (Jun 2, 2021)

I don't know for certain, but I would imagine the reason is to leave their mark. I'd imagine this is the same reason all that break off lineages do it. A matter of form over function (pun intended)


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## Buka (Jun 2, 2021)

I believe all Martial Arts progress. I also believe open minds help in this respect.

As to if his son is more proficient in their art than his father was, I have no idea. But I hope so.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 2, 2021)

I don't know, but I have some theories:

1) I suspect that Ip Man didn't do it only one way. I know that this is hard for us, because we want to believe that there is one right way, but based on my experience with Asian-based lineage holding sifus in other TCMAs, there are multiple flavors and variants of most forms. I'm not sure why Wing Chun would be different.

2) I'm not an expert on Ip Man's sons' training and don't want to start a lineage war, because...I don't. Neither of the two lineages I have trained in go through through either of his sons, so from a position of relative ignorance - I don't think they learned directly from him. At least not entirely. I think they each got their final  expressions from different people from one another.

I'll also comment that there are differences with all of the Wing Chun forms and lineages, but those differences seem larger with Chum Kiu for some reason that I don't have a theory about.

No  judgement implied in my statements above and I'm allowing for the possibility that I am mistaken.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2021)

If you just do exactly as your teacher taught you, you are a good copy machine, no more and no less. In order for you to contribute in MA, you need to add your understanding into your system. Whether your addition is good or bad, the time will be the judge.


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## Svarog (Jun 2, 2021)

Forms aside , Yip Man's sons look so different that I wonder did they have same father


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## wckf92 (Jun 3, 2021)

It's not just the sons of Yip Man that have different forms...most 1st gen student/disciple do.


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## hunschuld (Jun 3, 2021)

Yip Ching's story about this change. He didnt think the way the lifting punch was done was very effective. He prefered the punch you see. He asked his father if he could change it in the form. Yip Man asked 'do you think you have a good reason to do so. Yip Ching said yes and Yip Man said  then go ahead. Yip Chun does many things because of his height although I think he also does a lifting punch in the form at times.


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## geezer (Jun 7, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> Yip Ching's story about this change :
> Yip Ching said yes and Yip Man said  then go ahead.


I wish you would hear more stories like that. Most of the time in TCMA it seems like any innovations are dismissed out of hand.


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## geezer (Jun 7, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> I'll also comment that there are differences with all of the Wing Chun forms and lineages, but those differences seem larger with Chum Kiu for some reason that I don't have a theory about.


Yeah ...within branches of the Yip Man lineage the degree of variation increases as you progress deeper into the systems. 

Generally the variation in Siu Nim Tau (or Siu Lim Tau, etc.) is minimal. There is more variation in Chum Kiu , even more in Biu Tze, and then the long pole and Bart Cham Dao sometimes look like they belong to _entirely different systems_. Perhaps they do. 

Regardless, for me "originality" or "authenticity" is less important than _functionality_.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 7, 2021)

Interestingly enough, I feel like the biggest differences are in Chim Kiu. I don't know why.


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## geezer (Jun 7, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> Interestingly enough, I feel like the biggest differences are in Chim Kiu. I don't know why.


Dunno. Some of the weapons sets that are out there are totally different. Even such basic things as the grip on the long pole, and especially, the later parts of the BCD form. Or anything by William Cheung.  

On the whole, I'm very satisfied by the _concepts_ I learned in my base lineage, although I'm also very partial to the WSL stuff, and from what I've read, WSL himself as a sifu. I'm sure there is more good stuff and good people out there than I will ever know.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 7, 2021)

geezer said:


> Dunno. Some of the weapons sets that are out there are totally different. Even such basic things as the grip on the long pole, and especially, the later parts of the BCD form. Or anything by William Cheung.
> 
> On the whole, I'm very satisfied by the _concepts_ I learned in my base lineage, although I'm also very partial to the WSL stuff, and from what I've read, WSL himself as a sifu. I'm sure there is more good stuff and good people out there than I will ever know.


Yeah, there are lineages that are just ... different ... for sure. 

And you're right about the Baat Cham Do. The staff forms I've seen all have the same basic stuff, but the sequence is different. I see different expressions in everything, but if I'm being honest, I express things differently depending on what I'm working on, so if you filmed me on any particular day, I'd hate to defend what you see as "my lineage does things this way". 

There are lineages, including WSL, who I've not had an opportunity to train with, but would love to spend some time with. I had a year and change of Moy Yat before settling into Duncan Leung. I've trained and touched hands with a few other lineages. The differences are always interesting and it's good to be open to them.


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## geezer (Jun 8, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> Yeah, there are lineages that are just ... different ... for sure.
> 
> And you're right about the Baat Cham Do. The staff forms I've seen all have the same basic stuff, but the sequence is different. I see different expressions in everything, but if I'm being honest, I express things differently depending on what I'm working on, so if you filmed me on any particular day, I'd hate to defend what you see as "my lineage does things this way".
> 
> There are lineages, including WSL, who I've not had an opportunity to train with, but would love to spend some time with. I had a year and change of Moy Yat before settling into Duncan Leung. I've trained and touched hands with a few other lineages. The differences are always interesting and it's good to be open to them.


Yeah. From the little I've seen, I've a lot of respect for the Duncan Leung Lineage too. 

Now I'm having a John Lennon moment. Imagine a world in which all the WC people worked together!  ha!


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## Fedora (Jun 8, 2021)

Jaz said:


> Both Ip Chun and Ip Ching were there when their father filmed himself doing the Chum Kiu form. If this was to preserve the art, why do Ip Man's sons do the form differently? Check the video to see what I mean:


Both my teacher and my teacher's teacher (each is now retired) outweighed me by 70+ pounds. They have both incorporated their greater mass into their Art in a way most favorable to them. No fault, no blame.

I am much lighter than either of my Masters. Where they trended towards blows, I emphasize angles and timing, weight shifts and joint breaks. Their interpretation is right for their BMI, and I believe mine is right for me. The thing is, most (not all, perhaps, but most) Arts can be addressed in different ways while still maintaining the principles that support them. 

That is, at least, my opinion.


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## hunschuld (Jun 9, 2021)

There are a few reasons for Yip Man differences especially in the more advanced forms. I would guess less than 20 and maybe less than 10 learned everything directly from Yip Man. Yip Mans school wasn't set up the way we think of schools today. YIp had to eat and his only marketable skill was Wing Chun so as students got more advanced the name of the game was who can pay. Using knives as an example.

Tradition said that there is only 1 knife man. That was Yip Bo Ching he was taught all 12 sections and derivatives. He was also wealthy and compensated Yip well.  Yip taught Lok Yui the pole and Leung Sheung part of the knives. They were then supposed to teach each other the weapon they learned. Many could only afford one section of the knife form at a time. Yip would then just teach another section whenever the person had saved up enough for more. hence many  differences in the form since there was no order to the teaching.  Chu Shong Tin lived with Yip man the longest but was not wealthy. Even though he was a very early student he did not learn the knives until 1965 or so. Yip taught him his form but again it was just what sections Yip felt like doing at the time..  WSL learned his form in the late 50's and then after Yip Bo Ching died in 1969 Yip taught WSL some more or so the story goes.  Several people actually learned things from WSL not Yip Man even though they were Yip Man students. Wang Kui was instrumental in school growth because he wrote about and arranged many of WSL and Willam Cheungs fights so he got a form. Forms were just whatever Yip Man felt life or had the time to teach. Moy Yat was taught with chop sticks over dim sum. Because of his job he was able to keep Yip company when others were not available so the form was Yips thank you.

Yip Man also was not always patient. If you had trouble getting or performing a movement or a section of a form Yip would change it for you. This also lead to some variations. When I started in 1983 4 or 5 WC speople from Hong Kong came by our school to vist and started telling stories. Everyone started laughing so my sifu told us what was said. A Yip Man student had trouble doing a particular motion so Yip changed it for him. Of couse when he taught he taught his students the modification so now they always got hit during chi sau by people that were aware of this when ever they did this motion and they didn't understand why. It was a big laugh..

Often seniors taught the students and maybe Yip Man would correct a mistake and maybe he wouldn't.

Jiu Wan's school was the only school Yip Man publicly endorsed. Yip would often hang out at Jui Wan's school while people were being taught at his school.

So you can see there are many reasons for variations.


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## geezer (Jun 10, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> There are a few reasons for Yip Man differences especially in the more advanced forms. I would guess less than 20 and maybe less than 10 learned everything directly from Yip Man. Yip Mans school wasn't set up the way we think of schools today. YIp had to eat and his only marketable skill was Wing Chun so as students got more advanced the name of the game was who can pay. Using knives as an example.
> 
> Tradition said that there is only 1 knife man. That was Yip Bo Ching he was taught all 12 sections and derivatives. He was also wealthy and compensated Yip well.  Yip taught Lok Yui the pole and Leung Sheung part of the knives. They were then supposed to teach each other the weapon they learned. Many could only afford one section of the knife form at a time. Yip would then just teach another section whenever the person had saved up enough for more. hence many  differences in the form since there was no order to the teaching.  Chu Shong Tin lived with Yip man the longest but was not wealthy. Even though he was a very early student he did not learn the knives until 1965 or so. Yip taught him his form but again it was just what sections Yip felt like doing at the time..  WSL learned his form in the late 50's and then after Yip Bo Ching died in 1969 Yip taught WSL some more or so the story goes.  Several people actually learned things from WSL not Yip Man even though they were Yip Man students. Wang Kui was instrumental in school growth because he wrote about and arranged many of WSL and Willam Cheungs fights so he got a form. Forms were just whatever Yip Man felt life or had the time to teach. Moy Yat was taught with chop sticks over dim sum. Because of his job he was able to keep Yip company when others were not available so the form was Yips thank you.
> 
> ...


This is the best, if somewhat less than flattering explanation of why we see such variation in the branches of the Yip Man lineage today. And, it jibes with explanations I got privately from my old sifu and other sources.

I'm also certain that the old story that "there are only 5 (or was it 6?) people who learned the entire Ving Tsun system directly from Yip Man" is false. In fact, there are probably no two people who learned the _same exact system_ from Yip Man! And, learning (or buying) the entire system from Yip Man was no guarantee that someone was the best or knew the most.

The majority of the first generation of students Yip Man apparently learned most of their stuff from their si-hings and experimentation on each other. Some integrated stuff from other branches and other systems.  Some stuck rigidly to their interpretation of what the old man taught, some innovated and adapted what they learned, some simplified the system and some elaborated and extended it. None of this is a measure of quality for better or worse. It is just a description.

Finally, none of this should be surprising. Yip Man himself did not learn the entire system from his sifu, Chan Wah Shun. He was still a boy when the old master died and most of his advanced training was from his Si-hing, Ng Chun So. Oh, and then there is the Leung Bic story. Or, perhaps that was a cover story for material and ideas integrated from various other sources including Yuan Kay San?, Tang Yik? and the people who hung out at places like Dai Duk Lan?

Regardless of the details, GM Yip Man himself integrated knowledge from various sources as did those before him. He was recognized as a "grandmaster" because of his skill and that of his students, not because of his pedigree or his high moral character. We need to keep this in mind when we look at the current generation of teachers and contemplate the future of the art.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2021)

geezer said:


> I wish you would hear more stories like that. Most of the time in TCMA it seems like any innovations are dismissed out of hand.


Ive seen my Sifu make changes on the spot, to a form.


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## geezer (Jun 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ive seen my Sifu make changes on the spot, to a form.


Well yeah._ Sifu _can do that....at least if his the head guy. Now if us ordinary mortals were to do that, it's another thing. 

My old sifu made changes to each of Yip Man's forms, even though he studied under Yip Man and was one of the first to possess the old film footage that we have now all seen on Youtube. I was present when he introduced certain modifications. They were not done because he wasn't taught the older version, but because he _chose_ to make those changes.


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## geezer (Jun 20, 2021)

One must be very careful making even slight changes in forms. We must remember that every movement , the detail of every position, the precise sequence, the breathing, structure, ...even how you pucker your anus in a stance... all these things are handed down to us unchanged through an unbroken lineage going back to the_ Ancient Masters._ 

We, today do not fully understand the _wisdom of the ancients_, and the _hidden meanings_ of each detail. But if we accept this ancient wisdom and unquestioningly repeat these ancient, almost magical movement sets... If we perform them daily, rigorously, sincerely, and with the proper, meditative mind set, these "forms" (if they are truly the _authentic_ and correct forms" work like a great prayer or incantation to confer upon us the near superhuman abilities of the_ ancient mystic warriors_. 

...Or is that something I saw in _a really dumb cartoon?_


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2021)

geezer said:


> Well yeah._ Sifu _can do that....at least if his the head guy. Now if us ordinary mortals were to do that, it's another thing.
> 
> My old sifu made changes to each of Yip Man's forms, even though he studied under Yip Man and was one of the first to possess the old film footage that we have now all seen on Youtube. I was present when he introduced certain modifications. They were not done because he wasn't taught the older version, but because he _chose_ to make those changes.


Well, my Sifu was just an ordinary guy at one time.  I honestly do not know just what his relationship is, with any “higher” organization.  He clearly holds his teachers in high respect, but he does what he wants.

He changed a form on the spot because the older students were having difficulty with a jump kick. He just said, ok don’t do the kick; do _this_ instead…

Once I said, “ hey Sifu, this particular form is mostly done on both sides, but this one segment is done twice on the same side and not done on the other.  Why is that?  Why not do it so it is completely done on both sides?”  His response to me: “you can do it that way if you want, no problem.”

Really, I think he does not hold this stuff as sacred, and knows people can make changes.  I think people assume they cannot, and are afraid to or are afraid to make suggestions, and it isn’t just an open free-for-all.  But if people suggest something intelligent I think he would be supportive.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2021)

geezer said:


> One must be very careful making even slight changes in forms. We must remember that every movement , the detail of every position, the precise sequence, the breathing, structure, ...even how you pucker your anus in a stance... all these things are handed down to us unchanged through an unbroken lineage going back to the_ Ancient Masters._
> 
> We, today do not fully understand the _wisdom of the ancients_, and the _hidden meanings_ of each detail. But if we accept this ancient wisdom and unquestioningly repeat these ancient, almost magical movement sets... If we perform them daily, rigorously, sincerely, and with the proper, meditative mind set, these "forms" (if they are truly the _authentic_ and correct forms" work like a great prayer or incantation to confer upon us the near superhuman abilities of the_ ancient mystic warriors_.
> 
> ...Or is that something I saw in _a really dumb cartoon?_


Jeezuz, I thought you were being serious for a moment.  Was working up a response to this nonsense…


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 21, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ive seen my Sifu make changes on the spot, to a form.



Not Wing Chun, but my first CMA sifu taught me a Wu style competition form. I was one f his earlier students. I was away for a couple years and went back for a bit. He had a Wu style class so I joined. There were changes to the form. After class I asked him about the changes, he insisted that there were none. I told him, that if he liked, I could bring in the video of the form he gave me to show him the differences. He then said, yes I did change some postures to make them easier.

Back to wing chun; I learned Siu Lim Tao from a student of Ip Ching. I later learned if from a student of Jack Ling and Augustine Fong. They are not exactly the same and both had there origin as Ip Man


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## Poppity (Jun 21, 2021)

I kinda feel if there's this regimented approach that you can never change your form your essentially learning a wushu, or image only style.

In our approach our forms are supposed to change individually as you learn the applications within each set and develop preferences. 

We all start learning the basic form with mo git or martial purity and then it develops and changes with your own knowledge and fighting style.  Each of my kung Fu brothers has a slightly different style and form to one another because that is how we were taught. 

We can all of course do the basic form and if teaching someone new, they would start with that, but we are not supposed to repeat the same stifled form exactly forever like a robot. It's all about your individual journey.


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## Callen (Jun 21, 2021)

geezer said:


> Well yeah._ Sifu _can do that....at least if his the head guy. Now if us ordinary mortals were to do that, it's another thing.


Yeah, everyone waving the magic wand isn't necessarily a good thing.



geezer said:


> My old sifu made changes to each of Yip Man's forms, even though he studied under Yip Man and was one of the first to possess the old film footage that we have now all seen on Youtube.


On a lighter note, I have been told this same thing by different first and second generation Yip Man guys. I am of the opinion that they all wish they were “one of the first” to possess the old film footage. 

Like so many of the word-of-mouth Wing Chun stories, I guess it all depends on who you talk to.😁


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## geezer (Jun 21, 2021)

Callen said:


> Like so many of the word-of-mouth Wing Chun stories, I guess it all depends on who you talk to.😁


I know he had access to the footage early on and ....well let's just say that wasn't an entirely a good thing. Fortunately there were several copies floating around, otherwise we might not have that historical footage available today.


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## geezer (Jun 21, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> I learned Siu Lim Tao from a student of Ip Ching. I later learned if from a student of Jack Ling and Augustine Fong. They are not exactly the same and both had there origin as Ip Man


I'm way too lazy to learn several different versions of each form and practice them all. But I do like to _see_ the movements or sections that are added, omitted or done differently.  Last week a student who had previously learned an Ip Ching version of a form via Sam Kwok shared it in our little group. We had a good discussion about the different things each version trains. Then today, when working some movements in the Leung Ting "chi sau sections" we spotted a movement that was exactly like the Ip Ching version of the movement from the form.

So... you can't put everything into each form. Different masters will vary some on what they choose to put in the forms, but that doesn't mean that the stuff they left out isn't useful. You could fill a big book, heck, a lotta books with all the ways to apply Wing Chun. Each form is just an outline or index, typically focusing on core concepts. Applications are endless!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 21, 2021)

geezer said:


> I'm way too lazy to learn several different versions of each form and practice them all. But I do like to _see_ the movements or sections that are added, omitted or done differently.  Last week a student who had previously learned an Ip Ching version of a form via Sam Kwok shared it in our little group. We had a good discussion about the different things each version trains. Then today, when working some movements in the Leung Ting "chi sau sections" we spotted a movement that was exactly like the Ip Ching version of the movement from the form.
> 
> So... you can't put everything into each form. Different masters will vary some on what they choose to put in the forms, but that doesn't mean that the stuff they left out isn't useful. You could fill a big book, heck, a lotta books with all the ways to apply Wing Chun. Each form is just an outline or index, typically focusing on core concepts. Applications are endless!



I don't want to give the wrong idea here, I'm not that driven either. I learned the Ip Ching version, and then stopped for a few years and later went back to learn it again with a different teacher, student of Fong and Ling.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 22, 2021)

I was the first to get the old footage. Yip Man heard of me and flew to Texas in the late 60s to personally deliver it to me when I was 3 years old and though he didn't speak English and I was in the yard playing with Tonka trucks, he bestowed upon me the real secrets with his eyes.


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## geezer (Jun 22, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> I was the first to get the old footage. Yip Man heard of me and flew to Texas in the late 60s to personally deliver it to me when I was 3 years old and though he didn't speak English and I was in the yard playing with Tonka trucks, he bestowed upon me the real secrets with his eyes.


Boy am I jealous. And I thought I was special when GM Yip came to me in a dream and showed me _the_ secret techniques. That was in the late 70s. Now I found out that he'd already been teaching others the same stuff!

But thats not why I'm jealous._ I'm jealous of your Tonka trucks._ Yep, back when I was a tyke in the early 60s I spent hours in the shade under our citrus trees playing with my friends, me with yellow steel Tonka dump truck, scraping away in the damp earth making roads, ramps and ditches, excavating in the soft dirt with our bare hands  ....until we hit _buried cat-poo._ Hard to get that stuff out from under your nails.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 22, 2021)

He told me about the fake stuff he was going to give you in dreams, it's different. I have the exclusive real-real.

With me, after that first, in person visit, it more like post-mortim Obi-Wan Knobi in the swamp.


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## Argus (Jul 15, 2021)

A better question is why neither of his sons, or most of his students do the forms like Ip Man.
Everyone changes them, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, and sometimes in ways that I probably shouldn't judge without training that lineage.

I think I've learned four different versions of Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu at this point! I feel like a Wing Chun Mutt, and a bit of a detective at this point. I feel that everyone has a small piece of the puzzle, and nobody's understanding is entirely complete; many offering unsatisfactory takes on certain things, and very functional and insightful takes on others.

I can certainly see why one would develop their own forms, though. For example, I remember practicing the Yip Ching version of Chum Kiu when I was training that lineage, and in the bong/lan section, we shift our weight drastically to 0/100 even when shifting only to 45 degrees. Well, I found that in chisao, when I did that exact same movement in contact with an opponent, it was very consistently throwing me off balance and creating this "emptiness" that my opponent could just steam roller into and knock me off balance. So I now practice that section keeping my weight more centered, because it really needs to be more forward when you are shifting with contact, such that you turn your opponent rather than allowing him to knock you over. This is perhaps more obvious to me because of my very light and thin build, such that mistakes like this are amplified when I am rolling with people twice my size.

Of course, my teacher would have corrected me then and told me that was wrong. I guess one has to become a teacher themselves before making minor tweaks to the forms? I'm pretty sure Yip Man's students did that throughout their training though, and long before they learned the whole system.


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## Jut (Jul 15, 2021)

Argus said:


> A better question is why neither of his sons, or most of his students do the forms like Ip Man.
> Everyone changes them, sometimes for better,


You don't actually know what happened. They were taught different, which was expected from both the Chinese culture and their understanding that everyone is different. In that arena, it would have been insulting to be taught in a cookie-cutter way. 
When Duncan Leung first started teaching [before he changed it into Applied WC] he taught the way HE was taught. If you could see any hand form, knife, Moi-fa, etc.  demonstrated by SiFu Edwards, SiFu Doc Savage, and/or SiFu Dave Meadow's.. you'd know what I mean. Taught by the same SiFu, yet.. totally different.


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## geezer (Jul 18, 2021)

Jut said:


> ...When Duncan Leung first started teaching [before he changed it into Applied WC] he taught the way HE was taught....


Has this changed now that Duncan Leung has changed to "Applied Wing Chun"?


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2021)

I don't know, but I do know this.


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## ShortBridge (Aug 3, 2021)

Argus said:


> A better question is why neither of his sons, or most of his students do the forms like Ip Man.
> ...


I don't have the "truth", but I think we look at those videos and say "this is how Yip Man did it", but we don't actually know that's how he did it his whole life. It is possible that he had more than one iteration of each form and he was just filmed doing one of them. I know a very senior sifu in another southern system who this applies to.




Jut said:


> ...
> When Duncan Leung first started teaching [before he changed it into Applied WC] he taught the way HE was taught. If you could see any hand form, knife, Moi-fa, etc.  demonstrated by SiFu Edwards, SiFu Doc Savage, and/or SiFu Dave Meadow's.. you'd know what I mean. Taught by the same SiFu, yet.. totally different.


Wow, this forum doesn't get mention of Dave Meadows. I think this might be the first time I remember.


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## ytjer6t654uy6hy (Nov 3, 2021)

Well, my Sifu was just an ordinary guy at one time. I honestly do not know just what his relationship is, with any “higher” organization. He clearly holds his teachers in high respect, but he does what he wants.

He changed a form on the spot because the older students were having difficulty with a jump kick. He just said, ok don’t do the kick; do _this_ instead…

Once I said, “ hey Sifu, this particular form is mostly done on both sides, but this one segment is done twice on the same side and not done on the other. Why is that? Why not do it so it is completely done on both sides?” His response to me: “you can do it that way if you want, no problem.”

Really, I think he does not hold this stuff as sacred, and knows people can make changes. I think people assume they cannot, and are afraid to or are afraid to make suggestions, and it isn’t just an open free-for-all. But if people suggest something intelligent I think he would be supportive.


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