# Another MA Instructor Molsests Child(ren) - Mature Content - Reader Beware



## clfsean (Apr 21, 2005)

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/cobb/0405/21instructor.html

Cobb martial arts instructor charged with child molestation

Associated Press
Published on: 04/21/05 

Authorities have charged a martial arts instructor with child molestation and say he is also wanted in Florida.

Cobb County Police arrested Hyuk Song  who is also known as Jung Song  at his martial arts studio Tuesday.

Song has been charged with aggravated sexual battery, child molestation and enticing a victim for indecent purposes. The alleged molestation happened three years ago. He is being held without bond at the Cobb County Adult Detention Center.

Police spokesman Dana Pierce said authorities believe there may be other victims.

Song, 28, also is wanted in Volusia County, Fla., on charges that he sexually assaulted a child there in 1997, Pierce said.

"He's been on the run for seven years," Pierce said Wednesday. "When our guys opened up this investigation they discovered (Song) had an active warrant from Volusia County."

Police began investigating Song after accusations against him were made by a 12-year-old girl, who is a former student of Song's. The girl was 9 years old at the time she says she was molested.

Song is the primary instructor at W.T.K.D. Song Martial Arts Studio in Marietta and is a fifth-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, police said. Song also operates two other martial arts studios in metro Atlanta.


----------



## lonekimono10 (Apr 21, 2005)

THEY SHOULD CUT SOMETHING OFF i'm sorry but i have a little girl 10 years old, and i talk about this all the time in class, but what makes it bad that he is a teacher of the martial arts,


----------



## hammer (Apr 21, 2005)

Honestly it sickens me, I to have a daughter, It presents a major concern for all parents regardless of the activity that the child participates in. How someone can be so misleading,and breach the trust of his or her students and/or players etc .to such a dregree. *Deservers to be castrated!*

And it dosent matter whether he is a martial arts instructor, you here this kind of activity happening with all kinds of people with a postions of trust, whether its a preist, a school teacher, a neighbour, Jezzz even a relative!!!

And i my opinion the the punishment for any such individual should be castration, *with a hot molten rod shoved up his *** so he can burn from the inside .*

SO WHO CAN YOU TRUST????

Anyway cheers


----------



## OUMoose (Apr 21, 2005)

There's something sticks out in my mind about this article.  The guy is on the run evading a warrant for sexual assault in Florida, per the article.  Why would he make himself visible and run a MA school?  Did he just get tired of running?  If he was using an alias, why didn't he change his last name as well?  I know there's many LEO's that come through MA schools just to talk to the instructor.  Would they have not been tipped off?

Don't get me wrong, if he did have a warrant out, I'm glad he was caught.  Something just doesn't sit right, though.  *shrug*


----------



## MA-Caver (Apr 21, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> THEY SHOULD CUT SOMETHING OFF i'm sorry but i have a little girl 10 years old, and i talk about this all the time in class, but what makes it bad that *he is a teacher of the martial arts,*


No, I disagree he is NO teacher of the Martial Arts. No self-respecting *true* MA-ist would stoop to such a thing, IMO. The bastard shamed us all by using this front to gain access to new victims. 
He should be castrated and tattooed on his forehead PERP! in large letters and in smaller letters and written backwards so he can read it in the mirror everytime he looks in one "I am a sick person and need help!"


----------



## dubljay (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't see why there is a need to keep him alive... I know damn sure if it had been my kid they would be talking about my murder trail right now.  But then again thats just me.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 21, 2005)

Martial Arts do not impart "character"....people impart character. 

A good person who is a MA instructor will be a good influence on his students, as will a good parent, teacher, pastor, friend etc....the fact that we all get so astonished that a martial arts instructor (of all people!) could be capable of this **** is a symptom of overestimating the "power" of martial arts training IMHO.


----------



## Andrew Green (Apr 21, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> THEY SHOULD CUT SOMETHING OFF


 
 err... guys...

 I'm all for hacking and slashing but, he's not been convicted yet... "Accused" does not always mean guilty...

 Once he's found guilty then you can get out your scissors.


----------



## dubljay (Apr 21, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> err... guys...
> 
> I'm all for hacking and slashing but, he's not been convicted yet... "Accused" does not always mean guilty...
> 
> Once he's found guilty then you can get out your scissors.


 
 Andrew, you bring up a very very good point.  Accused is not proof enough. Granted his use of an alias, and prior warrent for a simmilar chage add to the likelyhood of a conviction, how can we judge based on accusations.  

 So often the accused face two trials, one in the judicial system which is more fair and just than most realize.  The second trial is that of public opinion where the trial is swift and there is never an appeal.

 Thank you Andrew for bringing this up.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 -Josh


----------



## Andrew Green (Apr 21, 2005)

On that first warrant...

 If it was a serious one that they where really looking for you on, would opening a martial arts school be your choice of hiding place?

 Media can spin things in all sorts of ways, we are just ignorant advertising dollars.


----------



## dubljay (Apr 21, 2005)

Perhaps some of the LEO's can enlighten us on the particulars of warrents and what not.

 I thought perhaps the charges for the outstanding warrent would have reached is statute limit, but then I don't think the warrent would be active.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 21, 2005)

Once a warrant is issued there is no "statute"...Statute of Limitations means that the government has a time limit to begin a case once it is aware of a crime. A warrant means that it has begun.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 21, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> On that first warrant...
> 
> If it was a serious one that they where really looking for you on, would opening a martial arts school be your choice of hiding place?
> 
> Media can spin things in all sorts of ways, we are just ignorant advertising dollars.


Running people for warrants isnt very common outside of sensitive job background investigations or LEO contact.


----------



## dubljay (Apr 21, 2005)

Opening a MA school isn't like applying for a liquer license I suppose.  No fingerprinting and background checks. 

 Kind of an intesting contrast; in order to sell booze you have to be fingerprinted and all that (I'm not sure if thats a state to state thing or Federal) but to teach people to fight, in most cases the ability to effectively inflict grevious injury on some one you don't have to pass a background check.

 In many cases to work in an enviroment that puts you in close proximity with children (i.e. teacher, work at a YMCA ect) you have to pass a background check that includes finger printing.  It is cases like this that almost makes me feel that it should be a requirement for MA instructors as well, due to their close, often one on one enviroment with children.

 I know that this is a rare occurance, but still it makes me wonder.

 Just my thoughts.

 -Josh


----------



## lonekimono10 (Apr 21, 2005)

ok, guys u all make sence about this, but why was he RUNNING??


----------



## Ceicei (Apr 21, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> ok, guys u all make sence about this, but why was he RUNNING??


  Why?  The answer is in the article:



> Song, 28, also is wanted in Volusia County, Fla., on charges that he sexually assaulted a child there in 1997, Pierce said.
> 
> "He's been on the run for seven years," Pierce said Wednesday. "When our guys opened up this investigation they discovered (Song) had an active warrant from Volusia County."


That's why he ran. But he apparently couldn't stay hidden as he wanted to continue with his alleged activities.

   - Ceicei


----------



## Andrew Green (Apr 22, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> ok, guys u all make sence about this, but why was he RUNNING??


 "Song Martial Arts Studio"

 I don't know, but if I wanted to hide I don't think I would start a public business and plaster my name everywhere...  but maybe that is just me...

 He hasn't been convicted of anything, and something is just not fitting right in that story...  Media spin is a very powerful thing, Don't start calling for testicle removal until you get some facts is all I'm saying.  Feeding stereotypes and fear is good news, it sells advertising space.

 Remember, the media makes its money through advertisors, they get advertisors by getting viewers, they get viewers by getting emotional reaction, outrage is an easy one to get...


----------



## dubljay (Apr 22, 2005)

I am going to have to stick with Andrew at this point.  The media tends to spin things according to demographics and advertising.  It is evident when watching say Fox and CNN cover the same story (this is excluding politics in the equation).  

 The point is we (John/Jane Q Public) only know what is presented in the news (media); we do not have sufficient information to say one way or another.  I freely state that my initial post in the topic was wrong, very wrong.

 Why do you think they select a jury that is made up of people that have not really heard of the story in the media?  According to the law, the man is still INNOCENT.  While I deplore the charges brought against him, and feel that those convicted of such charges should face stiff penalties.  The man must face a jury of his peers, provided only if the DA can meet the burden of proof to arraign him.


 Just my thoughts, and I could be wrong.

 -Josh


----------



## arnisador (Apr 22, 2005)

Things are always more complicated than they first appear. Reserving judgment is wise (and fair).


----------



## Tgace (Apr 22, 2005)

Hmm...current charges and a warrant out of another jurisdiction for the same thing? While he is "innocent until proven guilty" in regards to our justice system, I can understand a little judgementalism by the man on the street. Just because the system hasnt proven its case doesnt mean I still cant think the guys a dirtbag.

Theres a big gap between a persons being proven guilty and public/personal opinion....unless you are an LEO on the case, a judge or a jury member who says you cant make a personal "judgement call" on a person? Guilty or not in the systems eyes, I would make a "judgement" and never let my children set foot on his dojo floor.


----------



## dubljay (Apr 22, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Hmm...current charges and a warrant out of another jurisdiction for the same thing? While he is "innocent until proven guilty" in regards to our justice system, I can understand a little judgementalism by the man on the street. Just because the system hasnt proven its case doesnt mean I still cant think the guys a dirtbag.
> 
> Theres a big gap between a persons being proven guilty and public/personal opinion....unless you are an LEO on the case, a judge or a jury member who says you cant make a personal "judgement call" on a person? Guilty or not in the systems eyes, I would make a "judgement" and never let my children set foot on his dojo floor.


 
 What facts do you use to decide this personal "judgement call"?  Do you make this judgement based on what the media says? Do you know the man? Do you know the facts of his prior warrent?  I am not saying you can't make this call, but how can you besure it is an accurate judgement?

 Suppose this man truely is innocent of the current charges, and the active warrent against him also is nulled by proven innocence. (BIG if's I know, but bear with me please).  Everyone makes these judgement calles based on media spin, no matter where he goes he has the public against him, how is that fair IF he comitted no crime?

 No presonal attack intended, I am just curious.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 22, 2005)

I just think that some people take the legal concept of "innocent until proven guilty" and stretch it into "you cant have a personal opinion about somebody until the court says hes guilty." Much like the Michael Jackson case. Yeah hes never been convicted of child molestation, but if you were a parent who let your child spend the night alone in his place within the last five years than you are almost approaching child endangerment yourself IMHO. Of course thats my "lay opinion". In my professional opinion, you cant deny something to somebody that he/she should normally have (freedom, job, money, etc.) without legal process. However the whole "you cant judge somebody" tripe is a little silly. If thats the case why cross the street when a "suspicious person" is walking down the street towards you? Arent you being "judgemental?"....No anger, or scarcasm directed toward you either  Just trying to express how I see things.

:asian:


----------



## Tgace (Apr 22, 2005)

Besides that...one arrest with suspicious circumstances, yeah maybe I would wait a little before taking my kids out of his school. I would still never leave them alone together. If I found out that he has a warrant out of another state for the same offense from a few years ago?? We're gone.. and I would recommend the same to the other parents. Just the way it is. Why should I wait? Who says I have to?


----------



## arnisador (Apr 22, 2005)

No one is talking about whether you should pull your own kids out...that's your choice. Having an opinion is only human. But trying someone in the media isn't right. It's one thing to think it, it's another thing to publicize it.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 22, 2005)

Thats true....But I do believe the sentiment of "now lets not judge the guy until hes proven guilty" has been expressed quite frequently here so far. Moreso than a condemnation of media coverage. 

From a personal defense standpoint though, I believe that we should be "judging" people and places quite frequently. To place yourself or your loved ones in dangerous situations because you dont want to be "judgemental" is a dangerous game. That being said, your judgements should be constantly re-evaluated as new information is presented.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 22, 2005)

I agree. I read a well-written essay once--I wish I could remember where--pointing out that prejudice is good, and natural. You're prejudiced against known felons...good idea. Against drunks with guns...good idea. Prejudice is prejudging, which is your mind helping you predict what'll happen in your environment. Some prejudices are bad...but not all.

 Here? If I know of the accusation, I take that data into account. But I also remember how many of these things pan out differently than expected--O.J., Robert Blake, etc. (Though I did expect the finger in the chili to be a fraud.) Sure, I exert some prejudice against the accused...but I also try to keep an open mind. Two slightly conflicting thoughts...not a problem.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 23, 2005)

:asian:


----------



## Tgace (Apr 23, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> But I also remember how many of these things pan out differently than expected--O.J., Robert Blake, etc.


Even though OJ and Blake were found "not guilty" would you want to be in a dark alley with OJ while hes wearing leather gloves and Italian shoes...or would you wait while Blake goes back to the restaurant for his forgotten gun?


----------



## Don Roley (Apr 23, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> There's something sticks out in my mind about this article.  The guy is on the run evading a warrant for sexual assault in Florida, per the article.  Why would he make himself visible and run a MA school?



Did the guy have a regular job and was able to get by without teaching martial arts for a living?

I am aware of some folks from Asia that can't get by in English very well, but are able to attract students due to their experience in martial arts in their home countries. A hell of a great percentage of them are frauds. They were only mediocre martial artists in their own country, their English is not on a par to let them get a decent day job, but the mere fact that they are Asians bring in enough students to let them live a decent life.

Is there any mention of how this guy made his living other than martial arts instruction? 

And speaking as a person and not a member of a jury- this guy fled from the area where the crime seems to have happened. When most people move, they usually leave some way of contacting them with many people. That does not seem to be the case here. I think he is guilty as hell and death is too good for him. He raped a nine year old girl?!?!?!?! NINE YEARS OLD!?!?!?!?!?!?


----------



## Tgace (Apr 23, 2005)

Yes..and just because somebody has been found "not guilty" doesn't mean that Im going to let him babysit my children either.


----------



## clfsean (Apr 23, 2005)

*************UPDATE****************


Another girl, now 15, came forward after the initial media announcement were made saying she was also molested by this guy when she was 12.


----------



## Drac (Apr 23, 2005)

He should thank whatever deity he holds dear that I didn't arrest him.


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 23, 2005)

How come we can't take these dirt bags out and shoot them????.......


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 23, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> And i my opinion the the punishment for any such individual should be castration, *with a hot molten rod shoved up his *** so he can burn from the inside .*


 I vote for "Buckwheats".........stick a .45 up his rectum and BANG......he dies a slow and painful death.


----------



## hammer (Apr 23, 2005)

Apart from the discuss, and the ill will I have for this ######! I hope that the young individuals concerned have enough courage to see through this terrible ordeal, and recover from their misfortune as quickly as possible.


----------



## hammer (Apr 23, 2005)

I noticed that I had recived A negative reputation piont award concerning my first reply in to this thread here is a copy of what I had posted



> Honestly it sickens me, I to have a daughter, It presents a major concern for all parents regardless of the activity that the child participates in. How someone can be so misleading,and breach the trust of his or her students and/or players etc .to such a dregree. Deservers to be castrated!
> 
> And it dosent matter whether he is a martial arts instructor, you here this kind of activity happening with all kinds of people with a postions of trust, whether its a preist, a school teacher, a neighbour, Jezzz even a relative!!!
> 
> ...


I see nothing remotely wrong with such a post, but some ******* wishes to award a negative reputation for the above with his / her respones being 

04-22-2005 12:47 PM​ 
Yeah, you hate child molesters more than everyone else. Very cool of you. Makes you very tough.


*Well to my new friend, you forgot to sign your comments, lol its easy to hide isnt?????? You are always welcome to convey your message in person *******



 MOD NOTE: Circumvention of the profanity filter is a violation or our TOS. See here for full details. If you have an issue with a rep point you recieved, please contact an admin and they will look into it for you.  - Kaith
*


----------



## arnisador (Apr 23, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Even though OJ and Blake were found "not guilty" would you want to be in a dark alley with OJ while hes wearing leather gloves and Italian shoes...or would you wait while Blake goes back to the restaurant for his forgotten gun?


 I didn't follow the Robert Blake case that closely, but I have serious reservations about the verdict in O.J.'s case...even after reading *REASONABLE DOUBTS : The O.J. Simpson Case and the Criminal Justice System* by Alan Dershowitz.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 23, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I vote for "Buckwheats".........stick a .45 up his rectum and BANG......he dies a slow and painful death.


 I'm just taping "Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead" so I can watch it again! Good movie--very well written dialogue.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Apr 23, 2005)

I realize that this is a hot topic but 



Mod. Note. 
We require that the conversation is kept to a kid-safe level.  That means PG level

Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 23, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> How come we can't take these dirt bags out and shoot them????.......


 Because that's also illegal in most civilized nations.
The individual here has not yet been convicted and the law states innocent until proven guilty.
Vigilantee justice is rarely effective or accurate.

Personally, I think once found guilty, they should spend the rest of their lives on the receiving end of what ever crime they commited.  But thats my personal opinion.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 23, 2005)

I think the new trend towards 24/7/365 GPS tracking is a step in the right direction, since keeping them in prison doesnt seem to be possible for some reason.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 23, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> Opening a MA school isn't like applying for a liquer license I suppose.  No fingerprinting and background checks.
> 
> Kind of an intesting contrast; in order to sell booze you have to be fingerprinted and all that (I'm not sure if thats a state to state thing or Federal) but to teach people to fight, in most cases the ability to effectively inflict grevious injury on some one you don't have to pass a background check.
> 
> ...


In WA state the martial arts are not recognized as being any different than a dance class or the like. If you really stopped to think about all the things children can become involved in, and the people they may come across as a result, background checking MA intstructors is at the bottom of the list. Parents need to become more involved with the details of any activity they put their child in. Any one of them could have been keeping a close eye.
Sean


----------



## dubljay (Apr 23, 2005)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> In WA state the martial arts are not recognized as being any different than a dance class or the like. If you really stopped to think about all the things children can become involved in, and the people they may come across as a result, background checking MA intstructors is at the bottom of the list. Parents need to become more involved with the details of any activity they put their child in. Any one of them could have been keeping a close eye.
> Sean


 I couldn't agree more Sean.  When I was teaching a kids class half the parents I never saw or met.  To them droping their kids off at "karate" was the same as droping them off at day care.  I don't want to start "its the parents fault" witch hunt, but in very general terms it seems parents pay less attention to their children and their activities.  I grew up in a family where my parents knew everything about me, there was no point in keeping secrets.

 I realize MA is not recognized as being different, in any state that I'm aware of.  I know background checking MA instructors would be low on a list of need to know information with kids.  My post was more or less a stream of conciousness that had no real guidence, I was just making connections as I saw them.  Teachers and Daycare providers are monitored by the state, are are some afterschool programs, MA schools have almost as much contact with kids as those professions so the connection seemed logical.  Like you said the things kids _could_ become involved in MA is definately not the most dangerous to them.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 23, 2005)

Perhaps as a selling point (if the dojo makes enough $$) instructors could pay for a 3rd party investigation service to perform a background investigation on themselves and post it up....:idunno:


----------



## RRouuselot (Apr 23, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Because that's also illegal in most civilized nations.
> The individual here has not yet been convicted and the law states innocent until proven guilty.
> Vigilantee justice is rarely effective or accurate.
> 
> 2) Personally, I think once found guilty, they should spend the rest of their lives on the receiving end of what ever crime they commited. But thats my personal opinion.


 

   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Bummer

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]I agreeor something worse.


----------



## ed-swckf (May 13, 2005)

Ok while i think this is a abhorant crime and one that is completely destructive and the cause of irreparible damage to peoples lives it has been mentioned a few times through this post that the person needs help and is very very sick.  I must stress i am not saying that the opinions are expressed are disimilar from my own, but when people are saying this man is sick and needs help it seems the type of help you have offered is tattooing their forehead or cutting of genitalia.  This won't help them, it may serve to be a short term soloution to your reaction to the problem but not much more.  I find it interesting that people can see this as a sickness but not want to find a way to cure it or prevent it from coming about in others in future.  I mean physical sickness gets peoples sympathy but mental sickness gets a completely different reaction, i feel that knowledge is power so a greater understanding of the problem would give a greater chance of ending the problem or at least better controlling it.  

I understand how the ramifications of this sickness can make people very angry, they upset me too but if you are agreed its a sickness then perhaps we should all look for some consistancy within how we react to sick people.

I AM NOT CONDONING OR DEFENDING ANY OF THE ACTIONS OF THIS PERVERTED MAN.


----------



## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

Myth of Mental Illness



> Psychological and bodily disorders differ, he says, in that psychological disorders can only be understood if they are viewed as things that do not just happen to a person, but are brought about by him: `Mental illness' is not something a person _has_, it is something he _does_ or _is_ (Szasz 1972/Summary). Psychological disorders are actions rather than events and they are of some value to the patient. The patient, however, is not malingering. He is not fully aware of what he is doing and it is the psychiatrist's job to help him find out. Physical illnesses, on the other hand, just happen to a patient, and cannot be cured by self-knowledge. You have to kill the bug, set the bone, or whatever.


...



> This, he says leads to a dilemma in court cases, because when we regard an offender as insane and officially excuse him of his crime, we still punish him by treating him as someone less than human. The solution, for Szasz, is to treat all offenders as sane and punish them in the normal way. Anthony Clare says he cannot understand why someone who acts involuntarily has to be regarded as any less than human. Many patients do experience the process of being treated as mentally ill as a dehumanising one. but is it a logical necessity that it has to be so, as Szasz suggests?


http://www.szasz.com/sharma_ch2.html



> Many logical problems and contradictions begin to emerge when the medical or illness model is employed in the field of psychology. Firstly, the original model used to generate "the model for mental illness took its structure from such phenomena as Syphilis of the brain or delirious conditions, intoxication, etc., in which a person may manifest certain disorders of thinking and behavior. It was believed that all so-called mental illness was of this type. Mental illness is thus regarded as basically no different from physical disease. The only difference between mental and bodily disease is that the former, affecting the brain, manifests itself by means of mental symptoms, whereas the latter, affecting other organ systems, for example, the skin, liver, and so on, manifests itself by means of symptoms referable to those parts of the body (Szasz, 1963a). The implications of such logic are, of course, that the disturbances of thought and behavior, etc., are attributable to diseases of the brain, i.e. a neuro-physiological entity, rather than a disorder of the mind, as contended in the medical model. The mind is, in fact, an abstract concept (Ryle, 1949; Szasz, 1966a); which cannot be ill or sick except in an abstract metaphorical sense. Hence, the first logical fallacy or confusion arises when an abstraction is equated with a physical entity. This enigma may be stated as follows: How can an abstract concept and a physical entity be treated in equivalent operational terms as required within the framework of the medical model? Confusion arising from such a conceptualization has been vividly discussed by Szasz (1961).


----------



## digitalronin (May 13, 2005)

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]


*What is Mental Illness? (link)
*

   Mental illness is an illness that affects or is manifested in a person's brain. It may impact on the way a person thinks, behaves, and interacts with other people.

 The term "mental illness" actually encompasses numerous psychiatric disorders, and just like illnesses that affect other parts of the body, they can vary in severity. Many people suffering from mental illness may not look as though they are ill or that something is wrong, while others may appear to be confused, agitated, or withdrawn. 

 It is a myth that mental illness is a weakness or defect in character and that sufferers can get better simply by "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps." Mental illnesses are real illnesses--as real as heart disease and cancer--and they require and respond well to treatment.






[/font]


----------



## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

http://www.szasz.com/sharma.html


> During the past few years a dialogue with regard to the detrimental or beneficial effects of the medical model has become popular. The emerging recognition appears to be that the model has serious limitations in understanding and dealing with human conflicts and problems. Yet there are few indications that the model shows any signs of loosening its control over the (mental) institutions and the popular thinking. One reason for this is that the model is deeply entrenched, has generated a considerable vested interest, and has created for itself a power base within the society. In this volume an attempt is made to discuss some of these aspects of the model.


----------



## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

"The modern, therapeutic state came into existence as a result of the political transformation from Rule of Man to Rule of Law. This transformation carries with it an internal contradiction: while people value individual freedom under Rule of Law, they wish for a greater degree of social control than is provided by law. Under the ideology of the medical model, psychiatry provides this extra-legal social control. Politically, this model justifies the involuntary incarceration of those people not found guilty of crimes but regarded as strange, threatening or dangerous. This justification rests on switching from the moral model of behavior, which implies choice and responsibility, to a causal-determinist model which implies no choice and non-responsibility. This socially useful deception blinds us to ourselves and to the nature of our personal and public problems, while rendering us less capable of intelligently discussing and dealing with these problems."

Introduction: The Medical Model as the Ideology of the Therapeutic State
Ronald Leifer, Ithaca, New York
The Journal of Mind and Behavior , Summer 1990, Vol. 11, No. 3, Pages 247 [1]-258 [12], ISSN 0271-0137, ISBN 0-930195-05-1


----------



## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

All this is basically to back my viewpoint that yes, while this man is mentally "disturbed" (vs. "ill") and should get help... IMO that "help" should be from within a prison. Assuming he is "proven guilty" of course. The "he is sick (like he has the flu)" paradigm is not a model universally accepted in the psychological community.

Read any of these to see the trend....

http://www.umaine.edu/jmb/archives/volume11/11_3-4_1990summerautumn.html


----------



## digitalronin (May 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> All this is basically to back my viewpoint that yes, while this man is mentally "disturbed" (vs. "ill") and should get help... IMO that "help" should be from within a prison. Assuming he is "proven guilty" of course. The "he is sick (like he has the flu)" paradigm is not a model universally accepted in the psychological community.


 What percentage of the community does agree with the model?
 While am in agreement that this individual if guilty of the crimes of child molestation should be put to death or incarcerated, and also feel that too many lawyers are using this an excuse to justify a clients actions.  I take issue with the general treatment of patients within the current facilities.  I do have a negative biased perspective being a former voluntary patient at a county hospital for depression.  My stay there was approximately three weeks. 
     Since you are more familier with the prison systems, please explain what kind of help a mentally disturbed individual would recieve during his or her stay.


 peace


----------



## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

If you read carefully, most people against the "disease model" of mental illness are also against non-voluntary incarceration at mental facilities. 

"Politically, this model justifies the involuntary incarceration of those people not found guilty of crimes but regarded as strange, threatening or dangerous. This justification rests on switching from the moral model of behavior, which implies choice and responsibility, to a causal-determinist model which implies no choice and non-responsibility."

As to "what type" of counseling they would get...Im not a Psychologist so I dont know. My point is that the "hes sick" excuse for behavior can go WAY too far.


----------



## MA-Caver (May 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yes..and just because somebody has been found "not guilty" doesn't mean that I'm going to let him babysit my children either.


Particularly if they (the perps) have a history of it. Don't blame you at all mate.
Cases like these are very frustrating because it's usually the child's word against the perps and unless the child has a good recall and is willing to share that information openly and in a manner which the lines of their story doesn't conflict with one another... a skilled defense attorney can pick holes in the child's story and get his client off. 
Problem is coaching the child to withstand the harsh cross examination of the defense isn't that easy... especially trying to recall a traumatic and confusing event as the actual molestation. Trials can be just as traumatizing and stressful since the child has to relate what happened (often shamefully) in front of a group of strangers. 
These perps are skilled in grooming their victims to the point their asses are covered and certian "secrets" are "ingrained" not to be revealed. 
Parents need to educate their children about inappropriate touch but even more so to "break - the - secret" without fear of reprisals or condemdation. This can be just as difficult when the perp is one of the parents. 

Thus only the most trusted sitters have to be utilized. But even then you never know. That's why it's up to the child to be willing to report any signs of inappropriate behavior on the part of the sitter and the child *needs* to know what is off limits and what is not. Thus, consenquently it's never too early or soon to learn about the "birds and the bees" to understand that "this behavior, and this contact is only okay for mommy and daddy to do...to each other."


----------



## digitalronin (May 13, 2005)

I'm still wondering how he got a license to operate a martial arts school in the first place without a background check.  How many states actually require this process?  Basically it should be the same as opening up a day care center no?  More often we hear about the molestations occuring, but who else is out there operating schools that have no business doing so, such as felons?


----------



## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

Not many jobs require "background checks" beyond LEO, School Teachers and a few others.


----------



## digitalronin (May 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Not many jobs require "background checks" beyond LEO, School Teachers and a few others.


 In the case of a martial arts school, it should be mandatory, since children may be put at risk. A lot of the the dojos are independent shops not connected to a national body.  Even if they are connected they may not require a background check.

 -----------------------------


 oh as for treatment of mentally disturbed patients while incarcerated, this
 article by the office of justice, was interesting.


*NATIONAL CORRECTIONS CONFERENCE ON MENTAL ILLNESS*

 	The number of individuals with mental illness involved in the criminal justice system has risen sharply over the past two decades.  This influx has directly impacted corrections departments that have been ill-equipped to identify, treat, and monitor these mentally ill inmates. Two major causes of this increase have been the deinstitutionalization of the mental health system and the proliferation of more restrictive commitment laws.  They have both made it more difficult for people with mental illness to access mental health treatment.  Thus, they remain untreated in the community until their behavior-disruptive, violent, or otherwise-becomes an issue for law enforcement.


----------



## Tgace (May 14, 2005)

Never said that prison was the "best" place for treatment. Only that people there should get it, and that denying responsibility and blaming "illness" is an easy route and one being doubted even by experts in the field of psychology lately.


----------



## Drac (May 14, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I just think that some people take the legal concept of "innocent until proven guilty" and stretch it into "you cant have a personal opinion about somebody until the court says hes guilty.""judgemental?"


.

I hear ya there man..Someone just posted a negative ding on my reputation because I expressed my opinion..


----------

