# Cross training in various Kans?



## Highland Ninja (Aug 24, 2007)

Before I start my question, I have a request. *Puh-lease...let's not let this descend into a kan vs. kan or SKH vs. Bujinkan thread*. I've seen enough of those to make my head spin and my eyes bleed. 

My question comes up because I am re-joining the Bujinkan after a long absence (started training in the early 80's, stopped in the very late 80's, starting up again now). I've looked at the various x-kans, decided to stick with Soke Hatsumi, and that's that. 

However, every organization has its issues. And Bujinkan seems to have some issues concerning people doing the same things differently (ie your ichimonji no kamae does not look like mine, etc). I do want to learn the various ryu Soke is teaching, and learn them _properly_. 

So my question is this. I've heard that Manaka (Genbukan) teaches the techniques in a very regimented, strict and exacting manner compared to many of the Bujinkan instructors. Is it possible to cross train between Bujinkan and Genbukan and not have problems? In other words, train in Bujinkan to develop the "feeling" and flow that Soke emphasizes, but also train in Genbukan in order to develop very correct basics and exact, correct movement according to each ryu? Or would that cause problems by going in two different directions, even though both are teaching essentially the same art(s)?

Or is that even an issue? Are there instructors out there (in Bujinkan) who are doing things exactly as taught via Soke and the various shihan? It appears that James Morganelli in Chicago is highly recommended based on talking to a few people elsewhere. Perhaps there is no need to cross training to get to where I want to be? Is it possible to train in Bujinkan and get taught the techniques the same way Soke does them (ie correctly)?

Also, from a political viewpoint (and please, let's not let this get flamey, just a yes or no)...would cross training in that manner offend some of the Japanese shihan and other high ranking students of Soke and/or Soke himself? _I'm still unclear as to how that situation stands_. (A private message to answer that part might well be the best way to go, now that I think about it.)

As I said, I'm not into airing dirty laundry and I'm saddened that some of the shihan under Soke have split off under unfriendly circumstances, but I'm not trying to judge anyone. However, since I am mainly committed to studying in the Bujinkan under Soke, obviously I'd be wise to avoid doing anything that would offend him or the teachers in his system. I've read a lot of the "kan wars" online, but frankly they make my head spin because they always descend into flame wars and I can never read far enough into them to get a straight answer (it makes my head hurt). 

Finally, for the record I would not be training in Toshindo as I have my own issues with SKH. Also, I assume I would not train in Jinenkan because from what I understand, that was an unfriendly split and I assume there would be friction there. But I thought the split with Manaka was friendly and that cross training in Genbukan might be a workable option. 

Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## stephen (Aug 24, 2007)

Since you've already mentioned James:

I suggest you go to his class and ask him. He's insanely good and a super nice guy. Definitely one of the best instructors out there. He lived in Japan for a few years and is a student of Nagato sensei, so he teaches in much the same way. 

I've talked with him about how to train kata and was very happy with his thoughts. I suggest you go train and see what you think.


----------



## Highland Ninja (Aug 24, 2007)

Thanks Stephen! 

I watched a class with James once, and was very impressed with his movement. I plan on joining up there very soon. 

Oh, btw...I seem to have mixed up Genbukan and Jinenkan in my original post. I always confuse the two, not sure why. I meant to say cross training in Jinenkan with Manaka, not Genbukan.


----------



## Doc_Jude (Aug 25, 2007)

stephen said:


> Since you've already mentioned James:
> 
> I suggest you go to his class and ask him. He's insanely good and a super nice guy. Definitely one of the best instructors out there. He lived in Japan for a few years and is a student of Nagato sensei, so he teaches in much the same way.
> 
> I've talked with him about how to train kata and was very happy with his thoughts. I suggest you go train and see what you think.




James also trains quite a bit with Noguchi-sensei, and from what I saw, was rather adept at picking up his movement. Anyone that's trained with Noguchi-sensei can tell you that when he gets on a roll, almost anyone would get lost. James kept up better than me, & I kept asking him to explain things to me. I agree, very good and very nice. I'm sure that you'll have fun if you go train with him.


----------



## stephen (Aug 25, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> James also trains quite a bit with Noguchi-sensei, and from what I saw, was rather adept at picking up his movement. Anyone that's trained with Noguchi-sensei can tell you that when he gets on a roll, almost anyone would get lost. James kept up better than me, & I kept asking him to explain things to me. I agree, very good and very nice. I'm sure that you'll have fun if you go train with him.



When James returns to Japan he, as most of us tend to do, trains as much as he can, time permitting.


----------



## Highland Ninja (Aug 25, 2007)

Thanks, Stephen and Doc Jude. This is very encouraging news!


----------



## DWeidman (Aug 29, 2007)

Highland Ninja said:


> So my question is this. I've heard that Manaka (Genbukan)



Manaka runs the Jinenkan Org - not the Genbukan.



Highland Ninja said:


> Is it possible to cross train between Bujinkan and Genbukan and not have problems?



No.  It is strictly against the Genbukan rules.

Section 4 from the following document:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=692

And it is against the wishes of Hatsumi Sensei as well.

-Daniel


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2007)

I think if you find a good teacher in the Bujinkan then you will be fine and enjoy your training immensely. (choose wisely)  Then once you get going get to Japan and experience it from the source.


----------



## Shicomm (Aug 31, 2007)

*irony*

It's doable if you stay unnoticed...  seems like very good practice to me if you can make that happen...  

> a bit more serious then... 

Even if no rules about this would apply you still would end up with 2 "political environments"  ...  i agree to the point that you can ignore that but thats only for a while imho...  sooner or later it would start to bite... 

A highway can have a load of lanes ( and still have traffic jams... )  but your car can only drive properly in 1 lane at a time...


----------



## Highland Ninja (Sep 3, 2007)

Shicomm wrote:



> It's doable if you stay unnoticed...  seems like very good practice to me if you can make that happen...



I'm _pretty sure_ I could pull it off without being noticed. It'd just be a major hassle. Then again, this _is _ninjutsu we'rte talking about (running two separate lives, dual agent stuff, etc). 



> Even if no rules about this would apply you still would end up with 2 "political environments" ... i agree to the point that you can ignore that but thats only for a while imho... sooner or later it would start to bite...



I think I could avoid it being a problem, but the main problem would be time considerations.


----------



## stephen (Sep 3, 2007)

Highland Ninja said:


> I think I could avoid it being a problem, but the main problem would be time considerations.


 

Seems to me it'd be like trying to run Windows and Linux on the same box. Can be done....but why?


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 4, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> No.  It is strictly against the Genbukan rules.
> 
> Section 4 from the following document:
> 
> ...



I am quoting myself as everyone seems to be missing it.

It is EXPRESSLY forbidden. 

Or did everyone miss that?

-Daniel


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 4, 2007)

I certainly hope that everyone has seen what DWeidman has said about the subject. It's very important, since he may repeat himself with more regularity.
These schools have rules, and they obviously don't play well with others. You better follow the rules, or you might get a ninja visitation in the night! From two orgs even!

(tho, it might be a good thing, they may kill each other before they even get to you.)


----------



## stephen (Sep 4, 2007)

I see this discussion as having two sides:

In a practical sense, what Dan has said is exactly true. Some organizations have written rules, some have understood rules, and some have no rules. Just like any culture/organization/group on 
Earth.

In a theoretical sense there is another question of whether you would even WANT to do such a thing. 

The practical question is easy and settled. 

The other question can be interesting to some, as can be seen by the many who either break or bend the practical part of the equation.


----------



## Highland Ninja (Sep 5, 2007)

I noticed that the link shows that the Genbukan under Tanemura does not allow cross training in other ninjutsu arts (ie Bukinkan, Jinenkan). However, I've not seen anything written on the Jinenkan site(s) that specifically prohibit cross training. Likewise, I can't seem to find anything written on any Bujinkan site about this. 

So in the case of Bujinkan and Jinenkan, is the prohibition only being given by word of mouth, is it an actual prohibition or just a general suggestion, etc?


----------



## stephen (Sep 5, 2007)

Highland Ninja said:


> So in the case of Bujinkan and Jinenkan, is the prohibition only being given by word of mouth, is it an actual prohibition or just a general suggestion, etc?



So here's where the difficult part enters. Well, some find it difficult - some easy. So probably best to ask your instructors what they think and stick to that.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 5, 2007)

stephen said:


> So here's where the difficult part enters. Well, some find it difficult - some easy. So probably best to ask your instructors what they think and stick to that.


 
This is good advice as following your instructor's directions and guidance is always important.  Still it is pretty clear and passed on orally by Bujinkan Shidoshi and Shihan that Soke wants us to train in the Bujinkan and follow his guidance and training methods.  That is good enough for me.


----------



## stephen (Sep 5, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This is good advice as following your instructor's directions and guidance is always important.  Still it is pretty clear and passed on orally by Bujinkan Shidoshi and Shihan that Soke wants us to train in the Bujinkan and follow his guidance and training methods.  That is good enough for me.



Totally agree. However, it seems to be a subject of much discussion on teh intrawebs.


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 5, 2007)

I can't believe this conversation has made it to a second page.

What on earth do you think you will gain by training in two orgs?  

Do you really expect to be a serious student of someone and take another "ninja" class with a different org -- and not have it show up somewhere down the road (at which point you will probably be expelled from the school - and blacklisted at all other local dojos)????

Find an instructor you like.  Period.  Full stop.

If you suppliment him with another instructor... both will probably know.  And you will probably burn both bridges...

-Daniel

PS.  Sorry this is a bit harsh... but GEEZ....  why are we even debating this?


----------



## Highland Ninja (Sep 5, 2007)

Dweidman wrote:



> What on earth do you think you will gain by training in two orgs?


The reason I even brought up the subject was because of the oft-heard complaint that in Bujinkan there is not nearly enough emphasis on the basics, whereas in Jinenkan there is  not nearly as much emphasis on creativity and flow, and vice versa. I just thought that if all that were true, there should be a way to incorporate both, since they are in essence the same art. Work on perfecting your basics with one instructor, work on flow and creativity with the other. 

It does seem odd to me that people are claiming that Bujinkan doesn't focus enough on basics though. Now granted, I haven't been around in awhile, but I remember when Soke sent someone named Taro Yoshikawa to one of Hayes' Ninja Festivals in Ohio back in the mid-80's because he had picture-perfect form, and Soke wanted people to be able to see that precise movement in action (got that straight from Hayes while talking to him during a break while training there that year). 

Also, I noticed that the Bujinkan Shingitai-Ichi Dojo here in Chicago focuses on the basics quite extensively. From the website:



> On Mondays, advanced topics are covered including the Bujinkan yearly training theme, which this year is Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu. A variety of weapons are studied in the movements, including sword and jo, four-foot staff. Fridays include Kihon, fundamentals, including Sanshin no Kata, Kihon Happo, techniques from the "Bujinkan Bible" the Tenchijinryaku no Maki, and Hanbo, or 3-foot staff. All of which are the building blocks of structurally sound, substantive Taijutsu, the Bujinkan's core movement known as "body art."


So I guess I won't be missing anything after all. :ultracool

Brian wrote:



> Still it is pretty clear and passed on orally by Bujinkan Shidoshi and Shihan that Soke wants us to train in the Bujinkan and follow his guidance and training methods. That is good enough for me.


Ultimately I guess that's what it comes down to. I'm a skeptic at heart after some bad experiences. But Soke is one of the very few people in _any _sort of training that I truly trust and believe. So I'll have to simply take Soke's word for it and train the way he says.


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 6, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> I can't believe this conversation has made it to a second page.
> 
> What on earth do you think you will gain by training in two orgs?
> 
> ...



You don't have to stay. I'm having a good time, why don't you try to have one too?


----------



## stephen (Sep 6, 2007)

Highland Ninja said:


> Also, I noticed that the Bujinkan Shingitai-Ichi Dojo here in Chicago focuses on the basics quite extensively. From the website:





If you stick with that dojo I guarantee you'll be okay. Lemme say that again: I GUARANTEE you'll be okay. 

Also, I'll be in the area in two weeks, maybe I'll see you at training?


----------



## Mr. E (Sep 6, 2007)

stephen said:


> Some organizations have written rules, some have understood rules, and some have no rules.



There are very few traditional arts that have no rules as you would think. They might not have posted rules, but they deal with things in their own way.

If you were in Japan, before you trained with any other art you would be expected to provide a letter of reference from your teacher before you could train with a new one. Under such circumstances there is no real need to post anything. If someone wanted to train with an art the teacher did not want you to train with, they just would find some excuse to not produce the letter. In my experience, they would not refuse directly, but you would not get any encouragement from them.

So rather than asking if there is something public that says you can't do something, you should be asking if there is a public statement letting you know it is ok to train as you would like. 

And I know that several years ago Mr Hatsumi said that he did not want his students training with ex-students of his. So since the Jinenkan is headed by someone who is an ex-student of Mr Hatsumi, you would be wise to err on the side of caution before training with Mr Manaka. Unless you know for certain, then to do otherwise is just too much of a risk for those that really care about what their Soke thinks.

There are many arts in Japan that do not let their students train with other arts. Only a few post these in public. Shorinji Kenpo is one that does. If you train with them, you can't train with any other martial art. They may be in the minority in terms of going public, but their attitude is far from uncommon. The accepted course of action in a Japanese art is to ask the head of the system or his representatives before you do something. The western way of thinking seems to be to do whatever you want unless someone calls you up to personally tell you otherwise.


----------



## Shicomm (Sep 6, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> Find an instructor you like.  Period.  Full stop.
> 
> If you suppliment him with another instructor... both will probably know.  And you will probably burn both bridges...



I was lucky to find a teacher that i like very much.
But you know what ? He tell everybody to broad up their horizon and do train elsewhere and to share experiences with others in the group so everybody can learn from it... 

There are more shihan around that dont have any problem with training elsewhere to enritch the overall image.
Maybe it's a thing just going on in Europe and not in the US but even so....


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 6, 2007)

Shicomm said:


> There are more shihan around that dont have any problem with training elsewhere to enritch the overall image.
> Maybe it's a thing just going on in Europe and not in the US but even so....



Sorry - I should have been more specific:

Find a single X-kan instructor and stick with them.

How would your instructor feel if you didn't tell him you were training in Muay Thai - and used that as your base art to just put the BJK on top of it?

The original post was about training in the BJK and learning "better" basics in Mr. Manaka's Genbukan.  It then morphed into being a ninja spy and not telling either side that you were training with the other guy...

-Daniel


----------



## Seattletcj (Sep 6, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> How would your instructor feel if you didn't tell him you were training in Muay Thai - and used that as your base art to just put the BJK on top of it?
> -Daniel



Why should he care ?


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 6, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> Why should he care ?



Easy answer:

You are in  BJK class.  It is considered rude to bring in things like that (especially when training with another student who is paying to learn the BJK).

-Daniel


----------



## Shicomm (Sep 7, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> Sorry - I should have been more specific:
> Find a single X-kan instructor and stick with them.



So if i understand this in the right way you should just stick to your own teacher...  and not go training with another teacher even if he/she would be in the same art ?


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 7, 2007)

This is the kind of drivle that makes folks see the Bujinkan as a LARPing cult. I sometimes wish that some people would keep their opinions to themselves (in spite of my love of the First Amendment... I like the Second more, tho)


----------



## Seattletcj (Sep 7, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> Easy answer:
> 
> You are in  BJK class.  It is considered rude to bring in things like that (especially when training with another student who is paying to learn the BJK).
> 
> -Daniel



If you mean practicing Muay Thai in BJK class then, yes that could be a problem.
But, having Muay Thai as your base, and not telling your instructor. I dont see the problem. As long as you are practicing BJK in BJK class.

What about having BJK as your base and training XYZ "on top of it" ?
Should instructor in XYZ care?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 7, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> This is the kind of drivle that makes folks see the Bujinkan as a LARPing cult. I sometimes wish that some people would keep their opinions to themselves (in spite of my love of the First Amendment... I like the Second more, tho)


 
"I'm out to win, ain't no pretending, **** the first amendment, my speech was free the day that my soul descended..."

My experience tells me that very few people in the Bujinkan are less sympathetic and more difficult to get along with than those who view Budo Taijutsu as a complement to their regular training.


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 7, 2007)

Shicomm said:


> So if i understand this in the right way you should just stick to your own teacher...  and not go training with another teacher even if he/she would be in the same art ?



*deep breath*

Did anyone read the original post?

The question is about Cross Training from the BJK to the Genbukan (maybe the Jinenkan) - honestly can't tell because the original poster doesn't know who is running which org.

The conversation then moved to hiding the fact that you are training in another org as well.  

If your instructor is ok with you training with other arts (even the JNK and the GBK) - then have at it.  The instructor will probably tell you not to advertise it... but whatever.

If you are hiding it... then good luck.  If you are caught - you will probably be blacklisted from both orgs.

Your life - your choice.

Anyway.

-Daniel


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 7, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> *deep breath*
> 
> Did anyone read the original post?
> 
> The question is about Cross Training from the BJK to the Genbukan (maybe the Jinenkan) - honestly can't tell because the original poster doesn't know who is running which org.



He corrected himself shortly after. 

As for crosstraining among the three Takamatsuden arts, I say go for it if you want to try! Hatsumi-sensei himself said that to truly get his art we're going to have to steal it. Be a real ninja & get away with it!!!


----------



## Highland Ninja (Sep 8, 2007)

Stephen wrote:



> Also, I'll be in the area in two weeks, maybe I'll see you at training?


Cool! I plan on getting in there for the Friday class on the 21st, but I'm not sure I can squeeze that particular day in (prior committments). If not, then for sure on the 28th (the following Friday). I just got a very encouraging email from James Morganelli, so that's great!

Doc Jude wrote:



> Hatsumi-sensei himself said that to truly get his art we're going to have to steal it. Be a real ninja & get away with it!!!


Exactly! :EG:


_Hmmm...but if I get caught..._
%think%

Seriously though. Just to get back on track, the only reason I asked was because:

1. I thought that if the basics were not being drilled in Bujinkan, I could simply get them from Jinenkan (after I got it straight who was running which organization, ie Manaka at JNK and Tanemura at GBK). 

2. It would be a cool training exercise to work in both systems, much like certain exercises _some _of us undertook during the early Hayes days in the 80's (most of which is better left unsaid!)

:angel:

_It's been rendered a moot point though_, since I've found an instructor that drills the basics, and I also get to go to Japan. So really there's no need for me to cross train, outside of the idea of an interesting "undercover exercise". But that's rendered moot by the fact that I wouldn't want to offend Soke by going against his wishes. 

And bottom line, _I'm_ really the person responsible for drilling the basics into perfection. It's up to _me _to practice, to ask my teacher for advice and info, and to also get to Japan to see not only Soke, but also the Japanese Shihan so that I make sure I'm getting to where I want to be movement-wise. I'd almost forgotten to think that way. Sure, there are probably people in Bujinkan who are not working on the basics and merely trying to mimic Soke. These are the people that I hear about who won't spend time with the Shihan in Japan for whatever reason. But those who want to _really _learn to perfect the basics while studying in Bujinkan will look for and find the teachers they need to do so, and I'm the kind of person who'll make sure I get that sort of teacher. Looks like I already have. 

I _do _wish that there were stricter standards in Bujinkan though, because if someone moves to another state or city, it might become very difficult to find a teacher with similar skills and dedication, who will drill the basics.


----------



## Devil_Hanzo (Sep 11, 2007)

Just busting balls here Daniel but: 



> The question is about Cross Training from the BJK to the Genbukan (maybe the Jinenkan) - *honestly can't tell because the original poster doesn't know who is running which org.*


Compliments your prior post of:



> The original post was about training in the BJK and learning "better" basics in *Mr. Manaka's Genbukan*.


:angel:

Just to add to the discussion, yes it is expressly forbidden by Hatsumi to train in the BJK while training in another kan. However, as I understand it Manaka encourages cross-training of all kinds, wherever it is, even amongst the kans, and he openly welcomes any other kan members to train with him. 

It's the student's life on the line when it comes down to 'the street', and if the students feel like they want to x-train in BJJ because they don't get the groundwork BJK gives them [hypothetically], they should be able to do so. Agreed that doing it during BJK class [with the exception of freestyle randori] should be prohibited so as to not interfere with other students' training.


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 11, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> Just busting balls here Daniel but:
> 
> Compliments your prior post of:
> 
> ...



You could do worse than Manaka-sensei... most folks would have a hard time counting up more experienced & preferable instructors on one hand, Hatsumi-sensei included.

Manaka-sensei is one of the original old-school Bujinkan students. He lived the days of the hard-style Bujinkan. From what I understand, he's the most technical of the three fruits of Takamatsu-sensei's labors. And the fact that he, apparently, encourages crosstraining, well, good for his students.


----------



## Highland Ninja (Sep 12, 2007)

All this brings to mind another question. Has Soke ever explained the reason he doesn't want people to cross train? (Not that he has any obligation to do so). Does that apply to all other martial arts, or just Genbukan and Jinenkan?

I'd be curious to hear why it's so frowned upon.


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 12, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> From what I understand, he's the most technical of the three fruits of Takamatsu-sensei's labors.



Takamatsu Sensei had one fruit.  That fruit had two other fruit.  Please don't try to lump them all together.



Doc_Jude said:


> And the fact that he, apparently, encourages crosstraining, well, good for his students.



He knows that Hatsumi Sensei and Mr. Tanemura both forbid it... so what is there to lose in saying that?



Highland Ninja said:


> All this brings to mind another question. Has Soke ever explained the reason he doesn't want people to cross train? (Not that he has any obligation to do so). Does that apply to all other martial arts, or just Genbukan and Jinenkan?
> 
> I'd be curious to hear why it's so frowned upon.




This is me - speculating.  Take it for what it is worth (practically nothing):

I assume it is difficult to deal with more than a single source of truth.  If you are training in the JNK - and Manaka Sensei wants you to do it one way - and tells you that is the "right" way to do it... how do you deal with different information when you get to Hatsumi Sensei's class?  

Easier to not deal with it at all.  Wish the students good luck with their org and let them walk their own path.

Anyway... just me guessing.  Again, not worth much.

-Daniel


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 12, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> This is me - speculating. Take it for what it is worth (practically nothing):
> 
> I assume it is difficult to deal with more than a single source of truth. If you are training in the JNK - and Manaka Sensei wants you to do it one way - and tells you that is the "right" way to do it... how do you deal with different information when you get to Hatsumi Sensei's class?
> 
> ...


 
Yet that is probably a pretty safe guess.


----------



## newtothe dark (Sep 12, 2007)

I remember when i was a child I tried the mommy said daddy said and that was its own confusion. All the years of my training teachers have screamed loyality as one of the main virtues of the arts. Today is our mass marketed world where we can get anything on video or at the corner mall it becomes much harder to not try different things. In my town there are 4 Burger Kings and I can tell you that the burger is not the same at them all. This all means yes we can try different schools but those teaching it dont want you to have the different tastes. This is the way they have tried to maintain purity and control over techniques. This is just my opinion and not worth much and by no means is it meant as an offense to anyone. Disclaimer inserted here


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 13, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> Takamatsu Sensei had one fruit.  That fruit had two other fruit.  Please don't try to lump them all together.



Actually, I forgot Sato Kinbei & Masaharu Kimura.. 
For those that don't know, those are masters that Takamatsu-sensei gave menkyo kaiden to before Hatsumi-sensei. Tanemura-sensei went to study with them after he left the Bujinkan.

I'd say that the civil rights movement of the 1960's, & both Malcolm X & MLK Jr, were the fruits of the labors of both WEB DuBois and Booker T Washington, among other early black leaders. The movement was started by men that Malcolm & Martin never met, but they kept it going.

Why shouldn't we lump them together? They were all trained by Takamatsu-sensei, or were trained by his direct students. 

Is the Judo & BJJ of today the fruit of the labors of Jigoro Kano? Yes.
I could do this all day. 

Just because you don't like or respect those that practice Takamatsu-sensei's  arts, it's doesn't invalidate their knowledge or skills or time in practice. Manaka-sensei would school you, me, and everyone in this forum. That's a fact, & he's worthy of respect. So are Tanemura-sensei, & Muramatsu-sensei.

*THE IDEA THAT TAKAMATSU-SENSEI'S ARTS CAN'T EVOLVE OUTSIDE OF THE BUJINKAN IS A BIT LUDICROUS.*


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 13, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> Actually, I forgot Sato Kinbei & Masaharu Kimura..



yawn.

What part of what I wrote were you disagreeing with?



Doc_Jude said:


> Why shouldn't we lump them together? They were all trained by Takamatsu-sensei, or were trained by his direct students.



Feel free to.  Just as I will feel free reminding everyone that they didn't all learn from Takamatsu Sensei (which is what your statement _implies)._



Doc_Jude said:


> Blah blah blah ...& he's worthy of respect. So are Tanemura-sensei, & Muramatsu-sensei.



Where did I say differently.  

Strawman = 0
Doc Jude = 1


Doc_Jude said:


> *THE IDEA THAT TAKAMATSU-SENSEI'S ARTS CAN'T EVOLVE OUTSIDE OF THE BUJINKAN IS A BIT LUDICROUS.*



Not all evolution is good.

To each his own.

Which org do you train with again?

-Daniel


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 15, 2007)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> yawn.
> 
> What part of what I wrote were you disagreeing with?





			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> Takamatsu Sensei had one fruit. That fruit had two other fruit. Please don't try to lump them all together.



You yawning because you're bored, or you're tired, or you just don't get it?



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> Strawman = 0
> Doc Jude = 1



Of course, in order for there to be a Straw Man, I'd have to be manipulate or misrepresent some point of yours & then confute it. I'm not. Brush up on your rhetoric, guy. 
You said that Takamatsu-sensei had one fruit. YOU ARE WRONG. Next point. 



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> Which org do you train with again?



None at the moment, two in the past. Ad hominem, maybe? You seem to think that if someone doesn't wear tabi on a daily basis then they can't possibly have anything to contribute to any of your ninja conversations, & even question their right to participation in general. Silly, if you ask me. 

& and you should feel free to insert *IMO* after everything you say. Unless you want to come across as someone that thinks that his art is superior to everyone else's. 

Though, I'm sure that you've trained with EVERY OTHER TAKAMATSUDEN ORGANIZATIONS SENIORS in order to qualify your implication of "non-good evolution".

Right? (maybe a good time for an *IMO* insert?)

Oh, and...



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> Where did I say differently.





			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> Not all evolution is good.



What was your motivation for posting this, then?


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 16, 2007)

SOME LAHOO-ZAHER THAT GAVE ME NEGATIVE REP said:
			
		

> I think you should calm down and maybe apologize for your last line among others. Everyone here is supposed to be on the same path, causing division will not help. I know you are capable of better than this.



Apologize? Yeah, I don't think so. There are obviously folks that post here that don't universally respect martial artists, even in their own style. I see nothing wrong with the last line of my post, but I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MARTIAL ELITISM, as should anyone that puts their blood, sweat, & tears into their practice, regardless of the art. If you have a problem with that, PM me and drop the anonymity.


----------



## rutherford (Sep 16, 2007)

What the **** is this thread doing still open?  No good will come of this.


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 17, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> You yawning because you're bored, or you're tired, or you just don't get it?



Bored and tired of this useless conversation.




Doc_Jude said:


> Of course, in order for there to be a Straw Man, I'd have to be manipulate or misrepresent some point of yours & then confute it. I'm not. Brush up on your rhetoric, guy.
> You said that Takamatsu-sensei had one fruit. YOU ARE WRONG. Next point.



Not so fast.  This is what you said:  



Doc_Jude said:


> Manaka-sensei is one of the original old-school Bujinkan students. He lived the days of the hard-style Bujinkan. From what I understand, he's the most technical of the three fruits of Takamatsu-sensei's labors.



He isn't one of the "three fruits" - assuming you now want to change it to include Kimbei and Kimura (as they have nothing to do with the discussion of the 3 ninpo orgs).  So... you are wrong.  Period.  Full stop.

You are just unhappy that there is a connotation that Mr. Manaka and Mr. Tanemura aren't on the same "plane" as Hatsumi Sensei.  This bothers you - because you want to think of them all as peers (especially in regards to Takamatsu).  

This just isn't so.  Period.  Sorry.



Doc_Jude said:


> None at the moment, two in the past. Ad hominem, maybe? You seem to think that if someone doesn't wear tabi on a daily basis then they can't possibly have anything to contribute to any of your ninja conversations, & even question their right to participation in general. Silly, if you ask me.



Not at all.  Asking a question isn't an ad-hominem fallacy.  Drawing a conclusion or making a statement about the person's arguments because of their "person" - is.  Perhaps you should brush up on your rhetoric as well.

I just thought it might help the rest of the readership to know who you currently train with (so they can assess motivations).  My sig line clearly states what side of the equation I fall on.  



Doc_Jude said:


> & and you should feel free to insert *IMO* after everything you say. Unless you want to come across as someone that thinks that his art is superior to everyone else's.



Holy crap - I have no idea where you got that.  I cross train like crazy in several different arts and say nothing but wonderful things about them.  Or did you miss that?  Or did you mean "everyone else's" to JUST mean the Genbukan and Jinenkan?  If so - I don't know much about the Genbukan (so I wouldn't say anything about their art) - and I know more than a little about the Jinenkan (so I could offer a very local opinion about it).

Anyway - feel free to continue your crusade dude.  

Carry on.

-Daniel

PS.  the original topic has been covered - and answered.  It is forbidden.  The rest of this noise is just that... noise....


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 17, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> PS.  the original topic has been covered - and answered.  It is forbidden.  The rest of this noise is just that... noise....



Manaka-sensei doesn't forbid it. 

& you're the Ninja elitist. "My Ninja Master is better than your Ninja Master". Are you saying that, or not? According to you, not all Ninja Evolution is equal. Right? or Wrong?


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 17, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> Not at all.  Asking a question isn't an ad-hominem fallacy.  *Drawing a conclusion* or *making a statement about the person's arguments because of their "person" - is*.  Perhaps you should brush up on your rhetoric as well.
> 
> *I just thought it might help the rest of the readership to know who you currently train with (so they can assess motivations)*.  My sig line clearly states what side of the equation I fall on.



WOW. It was completely lost on you, forever.    



I'm done  :lfao:


----------



## DWeidman (Sep 17, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> Manaka-sensei doesn't forbid it.
> 
> & you're the Ninja elitist. "My Ninja Master is better than your Ninja Master". Are you saying that, or not?



No.  I am not saying that.  I am saying "my ninja master is the only one who trained with Takamatsu Sensei for more than 10 hours - from the leaders of the 3 current ninpo orgs".  So neener neener. 

Better is subjective.  Decide for yourself.  



Doc_Jude said:


> According to you, not all Ninja Evolution is equal. Right? or Wrong?



Right.

For example - most of the "evolution" within the BJK is horrible.  Just downright pathetic

I actually think the JKN has a better org in general than the BJK.  They don't need to be a "fruit of Takamatsu" to be good.  I don't think they get their panties in a wad if someone says, "Manaka Sensei didn't train with Takamatsu enough to be called Takamatsu's Student."  Why is that so hard for you to deal with?  

I think BJJ / Sub Grappling is better than all of Ninpo Orgs.  

What you don't know about me could fill a freaking ocean dude.

But keep up the crusade.  I love a good march...

-Daniel


----------



## Doc_Jude (Sep 17, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> What you don't know about me could fill a freaking ocean dude.



:lfao:


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 17, 2007)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Super Moderator-
*


----------

