# The "PCP Myth" about stronger/more dangerous BGs



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 20, 2009)

I remember in my early training days, being told that people who are under the influence of PCP are dangerous - much stronger than average, impervious to pain, and apparently able to shrug off injuries that should stop them almost instantly, such as being shot repeatedly.

We believed it then.

Later, I heard that many of those stories were apocryphal and 'never happened' in reality - just rumors that got exaggerated through retelling, that there were no credible stories about such things in reality.

I guess I believed that, too.  We all know how stories get blown up over the years and become bigger and bigger.

However...

http://www.mydesert.com/article/20090320/NEWS0802/903200320/-1/newsfront



> The detective added that Jonsrud told an officer he was under the influence of PCP.



The actual engagement you have to read to believe.  Three officers (maybe more? not clear) were bowled over by this 18 year old feather merchant, sent sprawling, and overmatched physically.  The kid kept tearing out taser prongs and ignoring the blasts.  Then when the first officer fired, he absorbed an 'unknown number' of shots and kept coming.  Shot again by another officer.  Finally runs away, and then jumps up and attacks officers again, getting shot by a third officer.  The kid is amazingly going to make it - shot to hell and gone, but he's 'fine'.

Wow.


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## Drac (Mar 20, 2009)

I personally encountered a person on PCP as a bouncer...He was being an *** so I escorted him outside where he tried to kick me, I side stepped and delivered a hammer fist to the braical plexis for a braical stun, he shrugged it off..The owner called the local boys and it took 4 of them and me to cuff this jerk and put him in the cruiser..I was told he calmed down at the station and was given his phone call...Upon getting a busy signal he tore the phone off the wall and attacked 4 cops armed with side handle batons, he was impervious to their strikes..


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 20, 2009)

Drac said:


> I personally encountered a person on PCP as a bouncer...He was being an *** so I escorted him outside where he tried to kick me, I side stepped and delivered a hammer fist to the braical plexis for a braical stun, he shrugged it off..The owner called the local boys and it took 4 of them and me to cuff this jerk and put him in the cruiser..I was told he calmed down at the station and was given his phone call...Upon getting a busy signal he tore the phone off the wall and attacked 4 cops armed with side handle batons, he was impervious to their strikes..



That is scary, very scary.  Correct me if I am wrong, but a hammer fist to the neck in that location should be a night-night if delivered correctly (and can kill if it comes up from behind) ... is that right?  And he shrugged it off?  Wow.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 20, 2009)

One of my buddies got picked up one night for a failure to appear warrant about some traffic tickets, and they took him down town for processing.

While he was sitting there, they brought in a "drunk" and told him to go sit down. The guy started wandering around, and when they told him again to sit down he ignored them so they put him a temporary cell.

Now the temporary cells at our new city lockup have clear "bulletproof glass" windows instead of bars. And the guy starts running through the cell and slamming himself into the "glass" head first. The cops tell him to knock it off, but he keeps going. Again. And again. After a while the cops realize this guy is really gonna hurt himself if they don't do something, because his head will break before that "glass" does.

So they open the cell and suddenly the guy comes out swinging. He's attacking everything in reach and cops are pouring on to try and subdue this guy. They tazered him over and over to no effect, and finally they were able to dogpile him to the ground and hogtie him with zipties. Then they carried him into another room and left him there on the floor while he screamed and screamed for _hours_.

So my buddy is sitting through all this, watching it happen, and when it was all over, the cops just went back to their desks and continued with their night. He posted bail, paid the speeding ticket, and they let him go.

He never found out what the guy was on, but it was pretty clear he was on something. All in all, a pretty sobering tale of how a person can act when they are "under the influence."


-Rob


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## Skpotamus (Mar 20, 2009)

While getting ready for my last defensive tactics course I watched some videos of cell block fights and dashcams.  One video showed a guy, maybe a buck 30, 5'5" or so get upset at booking, throw a punch at an officer by a cage door, miss the officer and pretty much shatter his hand on the steel door, and then throwing three officers around like ragdolls while being unable to move his right hand.  Took a total of 5 officers to subdue the guy and cuff him up.  Guy shrugged off pepper spray and the standard asp strikes to the legs.  One of the officers even tried to block an incoming strike and accidentally cracked the guy in across the head with his ASP, to no apparant effect whatsoever.  Afterwards, they took him to the hospital for treatment of his broken jaw (from the block attempt), a shattered right hand, two broken ribs and about 14 stitches.  The officers didnt' fair too much better.  This guy was literally smaller than most of the female inmates and roughly 100 lbs lighter than all of the leo's.  

People on some substances can completely lose it, feel no pain and seem stronger than they normally would be.   The strength thing is probably just an issue of them using everything they have at 100% and not worrying about hurting themselves while doing it.  It's very hard to stop people like that.  

There was a website of knife injuries somewhere where one of the injuries was a guy who completely gutted himself while on PCP.  He took a pocket knife and ribbed his abdomen open, then pulled his guts out.  Fighting someone like that is a nightmare because their brain is obviously not functioning right, and they don't feel a damned thing.


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## kyosa (Mar 20, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That is scary, very scary. Correct me if I am wrong, but a hammer fist to the neck in that location should be a night-night if delivered correctly (and can kill if it comes up from behind) ... is that right? And he shrugged it off? Wow.


 
Brachial stuns dont kill if done correctly. The first years that the technique was taught came from the way Martail Artists did the strike. I believe the first couple years the technique was taught there were several broken necks but no deaths (edited the technique is now taught 2 different ways in PPCT-deadly force and non deadly force). I've never heard of the technique being more or less effective if delivered from the front or behind (edited but the technique is generally taught from in front of the person since that is usually the situation you will find yourself).

I have run into many people who were impervious to pain-some on chemicals some just highly combative or high pain tolerance. I haven't seen anyone yet take a solid, everything I have, good angle and direction, Brachial stun....and I hope I never do.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 20, 2009)

Not to drift the thread, I had a discussion with some people on another forum about this old clip. Consensus was this was probably a brachial stun.


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## Skpotamus (Mar 21, 2009)

kyosa said:


> Brachial stuns dont kill if done correctly. The first years that the technique was taught came from the way Martail Artists did the strike. I believe the first couple years the technique was taught there were several broken necks but no deaths (edited the technique is now taught 2 different ways in PPCT-deadly force and non deadly force). I've never heard of the technique being more or less effective if delivered from the front or behind (edited but the technique is generally taught from in front of the person since that is usually the situation you will find yourself).


 
When I was taught the brachial stun in the PPCT prog (which is no longer the standard in my state btw) the instructor said they originally taught it as a knife hand strike, but there were some broken vertebrae from the strike, so they changed it to using the forearm or back of the hand.  

I too have never seen anyone take a full power brachial stun that landed clean and stay on their feet..... if I do I'm running like hell.


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2009)

Man, that is some SCARY stuff!!!!  And of course, I always find myself shaking my head at stuff you read in those articles, such as at the end, where they say the kid was good, had a big heart, blah, blah,blah.  Umm..sorry, dont buy it.  If he was that good and kind, he'd know better to not get involved with drugs, if in fact he was under the influence of something.  

But man, shot all those times and still going!!!  I'm going to take a shot and say that the brachial hit probably wouldn't have any effect in this case either.  Then again, I'm wondering if a choke, such as a RNC, would work.  Of course, if it were possible to get close enough to apply it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 21, 2009)

I don't know why anyone would have thought this was a myth to begin with.....PCP is a dissociative anesthetic that creates BOTH a mind/body disconnect though the killing of pain, as well as creating hallucinogenic effects and delusional thinking.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a26_1174480972
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=042_1175214741
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=50b817b9a7
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cef_1187996993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9oK774QU4E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHnYMYS8mc&feature=related


It doesn't matter whether someone is high on PCP, a hyper-stimulant like methamphetamines or cocaine, or an EDP (emotional disturbed person) experiencing delusions and a mind-body disconnect, they may sound like a myth to anyone who has never dealt with one.......but the first time you do, you'll think they're a NIGHTMARE!


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 21, 2009)

kyosa said:


> Brachial stuns dont kill if done correctly. The first years that the technique was taught came from the way Martail Artists did the strike. I believe the first couple years the technique was taught there were several broken necks but no deaths (edited the technique is now taught 2 different ways in PPCT-deadly force and non deadly force). I've never heard of the technique being more or less effective if delivered from the front or behind (edited but the technique is generally taught from in front of the person since that is usually the situation you will find yourself).
> 
> I have run into many people who were impervious to pain-some on chemicals some just highly combative or high pain tolerance. I haven't seen anyone yet take a solid, everything I have, good angle and direction, Brachial stun....and I hope I never do.






Skpotamus said:


> When I was taught the brachial stun in the PPCT prog (which is no longer the standard in my state btw) the instructor said they originally taught it as a knife hand strike, but there were some broken vertebrae from the strike, so they changed it to using the forearm or back of the hand.
> 
> I too have never seen anyone take a full power brachial stun that landed clean and stay on their feet..... if I do I'm running like hell.


The reason my agency originally went to the Taser was because of an incident I was a part of about 8 years ago!

A guy who had been on a methamphetamine bender for several days was destroying property with his vehicle, when me and two other officers arrived on scene.  This guy was a construction worker, about 6'0 210lbs, already a pretty good handful WITHOUT the drugs.

When we approached, instead of running, he took his shirt off and was ready to fight.  It took all three of us, and one HELLUVA a fight, including him taking a baton blow to the head that collapsed the baton (I didn't do it) with no visible responsible from him, other than his head turning sideways like the Terminator when the gal hit him with the pipe. 

I finally had to put a rear naked strangle on the guy, while the other two guys were fighting him, to get him under control.

We hobbled him, threw him in a car, and drove him to jail.

At the jail, once in the booking room, I was in the process of taking his handcuffs off to change his clothes out, when he attacked me.

I hit the guy full power with a forearm strike, not a brachial stun, but a FULL POWER muay thai style forearm strike to the brachial area/jaw, and knocked him OFF HIS FEET, and in to the wall behind him......and he popped right back up like he was on a spring and started fighting, as if nothing ever happened!

I'm a big guy.....6'5 270.....and I hit HARD!  And I LITERALLY knocked this guy off his feet........and he bounced right back up.  He was so pumped full of methamphetamines, and had been without SLEEP so long, that he was delusional, without pain, and wired to the MAX!

We finally fought this guy in to a cell, where he pounded, punched, kicked and headbutted the door for the next 6 hours!

My thought at the time was, had it been ANY other officer but me or a couple of other officers at my department, they'd have had to KILL this guy, or gotten hurt or gotten hurt or killed themselves.......We LITERALLY had to fight this guy from the beginning until we got him in to a cell!



The LESSON: ANY move/technique/weapon you ASSUME would floor an elephant, and render unconscious/kill any human being......there are folks out there who will PROVE YOU WRONG!  To include BULLETS!  It's always good to have a plan A), plan B), plan C) and an ESCAPE ROUTE!


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## jarrod (Mar 21, 2009)

in what areas is PCP popular?  for better or worse, i've known many people who were into a wide variety of drugs, & i can't think of anyone i know who has tried it.  is it a drug some people do regularly, or can the body & mind even sustain a PCP habit?

jf


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## jks9199 (Mar 21, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The LESSON: ANY move/technique/weapon you ASSUME would floor an elephant, and render unconscious/kill any human being......there are folks out there who will PROVE YOU WRONG!  To include BULLETS!  It's always good to have a plan A), plan B), plan C) and an ESCAPE ROUTE!


Very much worth repeating!


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 21, 2009)

jarrod said:


> in what areas is PCP popular?  for better or worse, i've known many people who were into a wide variety of drugs, & i can't think of anyone i know who has tried it.  is it a drug some people do regularly, or can the body & mind even sustain a PCP habit?
> 
> jf


 It's less an area than a particular type of criminal.......those who use PCP are usually the true dregs of society.  It's a drug that leads downhill very quickly, and usually has a violent ending.  It also causes schizophrenic type brain changes.

Keep in mind that PCP isn't the only drug that creates these type of hyper-pain resistant, violent mind/body disconnect behaviors.......hyper-stimulants can cause the same effect, specifically methamphetamines and cocaine, especially when taken to a near overdose........the effect is referred to, in police circles, as hyper-stimulant induced psychosis.........the same phenomenon can be observed with NO drugs as the result of some types of mental illness.


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## jks9199 (Mar 22, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It's less an area than a particular type of criminal.......those who use PCP are usually the true dregs of society.  It's a drug that leads downhill very quickly, and usually has a violent ending.  It also causes schizophrenic type brain changes.
> 
> Keep in mind that PCP isn't the only drug that creates these type of hyper-pain resistant, violent mind/body disconnect behaviors.......hyper-stimulants can cause the same effect, specifically methamphetamines and cocaine, especially when taken to a near overdose........the effect is referred to, in police circles, as hyper-stimulant induced psychosis.........the same phenomenon can be observed with NO drugs as the result of some types of mental illness.


You can't even really say that PCP users are the dregs of society.  PCP and LSD are making another comeback in the high schools in my area.  And, LSD especially, seems to be popular with the brighter kids you'd hope would know better.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 22, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> You can't even really say that PCP users are the dregs of society.  PCP and LSD are making another comeback in the high schools in my area.  And, LSD especially, seems to be popular with the brighter kids you'd hope would know better.



LSD has always been a drug associated with a quasi-intellectual counter-cultural thinking.  

PCP has always been associated (and always will) with the dregs.  

The reason is that LSD users manage to avoid any serious short term consequences for the most part......the whole 'Tune in, turn on and drop out' Timothy Leary phenomenon still holds sway among a certain type of 'brighter' kids.

PCP, on the other hand, too often creates bizarre, often violent, and quite often uncontrollable behavior on the part of anyone who uses it.  Therefore, PCP as a recreational drug is a short ride to a messy end!  It's a high that's usually out of control.


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## Drac (Mar 22, 2009)

Up here its those smoking the  *wet cigarettes are the worst to deal with..Had a female slip out of her cuff and fight me and another jailer in an attempt to recuff her..








* cigarettes dipped in formaldehyde left to dry then smoked


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## theletch1 (Mar 22, 2009)

Drac said:


> Up here its those smoking the  *wet cigarettes are the worst to deal with..Had a female slip out of her cuff and fight me and another jailer in an attempt to recuff her..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had a family member and her husband back in the '80s that would dip joints in formaldehyde for an additional "kick".  No one wanted to be any where near them when they were on the crap.  

I've heard that things like meth will create the stimulant effect that we're discussing as well as the disassociation with pain but also creates both a "God sense" as well as paranoia.  That's a tough thing to deal with as a defender.  Some one thinks they are a God and can't be hurt but also thinks everyone is out to get them.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2009)

Drac said:


> I personally encountered a person on PCP as a bouncer...He was being an *** so I escorted him outside where he tried to kick me, I side stepped and delivered a hammer fist to the braical plexis for a braical stun, he shrugged it off..The owner called the local boys and it took 4 of them and me to cuff this jerk and put him in the cruiser..I was told he calmed down at the station and was given his phone call...Upon getting a busy signal he tore the phone off the wall and attacked 4 cops armed with side handle batons, he was impervious to their strikes..



Yes, I have seen them do weird things, while I was a bouncer. So, when faced with won that was also "not There" and unable to be reasoned with, I called the police. One officer showed up. 

The officer got him outside and then the fight broke out. I ended up helping the officer. While helping him I had him ( 135lbs at most ) pinned to the ground with my body mass ( 230 to 240 lbs ) and I had his arm behind him in a wrist lock. He just looked over his shoulder at me and said, "**** You!" as he raise up his arm and me off the ground. He broke his wrist in doing the motion but he did not feel it nor did he care. The arm was still a weapon as he did not realize it was broke. 

Later in the altercation, I was able to grab him roll him over on top of me and relax my grip. We were both looking up. He saw the clear blue sky and relaxed. The officer called for help and then leaned back over the bad guy. The bad guy lost sight of the sky and tensed back up and the fight was back on. 

Back up arrived. First car missed my head by inches. I felt the air movement, and heard the noise. I rolled into a a ball and did not move as the back up officer was racing out of his vehicle. More officer were coming. I laid there and did not move about three feet from the road in a parking lot while multiple officers (* 3 to 5 at any given time *) tried to restrain the bad guy. Finally one "older" (* 40's *) and smarter officer walked over and stepped on his head and ground his whole weight into his face and crushed his skull to the asphalt. The bad guy was screaming. But this was the only way they were able to get him in hand cuffs. 

After that time they got him standing and tried to put him into the car. He lost it again and ended up fighting the officer. They tried to put him in while holding his legs and shoulders. The bad guy kicked out and kicked an officer in the face. I am not sure if it was intentional or accidental but those holding his shoulders let go and the back of his head hit the bottom of the door well of the rear seat of the police vehicle. He fell about 2+ feet to this impact and then hit the ground as well. He kept fighting. 

After stepping on his head a second time they were able to cuff his ankles and then restrain his hands that had been behind his back since being cuffed to his ankles as well. They got him into the vehicle and took him to a hospital. 

The police told me he was on PCP. I guess I never saw the medical report so it could have been something else, but either way, this event and some others at concerts I prefer to stay away from these types.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 23, 2009)

As a word to the wise to anyone who ever deals with a Drugged/EDP with a mind/body disconnect........I had suggest you be familiar with the term 'Rear Naked Choke' if you have a needed of controlling them with physical force.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 24, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> All in all, a pretty sobering tale of how a person can act when they are "under the influence."



The only influence he might have been under is his own mind.  Most of the tools and techniques used to enforce compliance rely on pain.  It only takes the right combination of rage or insanity to ignore that pain and keep up the fight.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 24, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> After stepping on his head a second time they were able to cuff his ankles and then restrain his hands that had been behind his back since being cuffed to his ankles as well. They got him into the vehicle and took him to a hospital.



We used to refer to the hand-irons, flexicuffs on the feet, and another set of flexis holding both together as *'The Samsonite'*.  Used on kickers and spitters, mostly.


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## Drac (Mar 25, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We used to refer to the hand-irons, flexicuffs on the feet, and another set of flexis holding both together as *'The Samsonite'*. Used on kickers and spitters, mostly.


 
We use a nylon belt made just for those who feel the need to kick..The last guy that tried to kick an officer in the face only wound up hitting my baton with his shins, the years of practicing fast draws paid off...We now carry a specially made hood for spitters, of course since ya cant always get to it I have had great success with the t-shirt pulled over the spitters head and face...


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## Bikewr (Mar 25, 2009)

Fortunately, we haven't seen much in the way of PCP use locally for some time.   We had a couple of well-publicized incidents; one in which an officer trying to fight with one of these guys ended up shooting him because nothing else was working...

One of our officers, off-duty, was involved in an incident where a PCP-addled individual was amusing himself by throwing his body through glass doors in a residential area.   Then he'd just run out on the street.   He'd done this half-a-dozen times by the time the police arrived, and he had cuts and lacerations over most of his body.
Just a week or so later, still wearing bandages and stitches, he stood by the highway with a pistol, shooting randomly at passing motorists.   He was taken into custody alive only because he had run out of ammunition...


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