# Bad things in Systema?



## RMACKD (Sep 18, 2004)

I was looking through Russian Ma forums and I found this thread. http://www.fightauthority.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1283&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 With a person saying his school was kicked out of the official systema organazation and that bad things were happening in the last 8 months or so. It seems that the thread is still active so he might elaborate, but does anyone know why his school was banned and what he is talking about?


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## NYCRonin (Sep 18, 2004)

I tried to access that thread and was asked to join the site - and I really dont have the time, nor interest; to do so.

Overall, I personally would suggest that you contact this individual directly and ask why. MartialTalk has given us a forum for RMA, true -- but I dont think that we really are given it to discuss any such matters here.

Maybe this guy was booted for some reason -- until I know who we are talking about, I have no idea. 

maybe I am being naieve, but I would rather, personally; to keep the threads here on a more open RMA line....and not get involved in the 'he said - she said'
muck that so many forums cater to. Such banter is rarely beneficial, overall.

Again, just my personal opinion.


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## Arthur (Sep 21, 2004)

> I tried to access that thread and was asked to join the site - and I really dont have the time, nor interest; to do so.


It happens that I have an account there from a long time ago. I tried it out to see the thread... the account still worked... but the thread seems to be gone.



> Overall, I personally would suggest that you contact this individual directly and ask why.


I respectfully disagree. I would instead sugget that if you are interested in RMA, and this school is in your area... you go down and see what they have to offer. Whether they are in this organization or that one, whether they are in good standing with a given organization or bad... none of it is really relevent to their skills as practitioners and teachers, and more importantly... what they can do for you.

Political agendas and ideology becoming more important than substance is enough of a problem in the rest of our lives. Is Iraq part of the war on terror or isn't... we won't know until its failed or suceeded, and that will in the end take many years. Is a teacher competent or incompetent, this cn be found out in a single evening. Political speculation is a far more laborious process in this case than seeking the immediate provable truth.

Grasp the individual power you have in this case to find out what is true.



> MartialTalk has given us a forum for RMA, true -- but I dont think that we really are given it to discuss any such matters here.


I disagree again... but also agree at the same time. One of the nice things about martialtalk is its neutral ground. People should be aloud to ask whatever they want here. Its one of the only places they really can. On a RMA centric website, even if the admin/moderators wish to give complete freedom, reality is the homogenous nature of the members will likely shut down questions that are considered "out of the local norm".

I'm lucky enough to have already found RMA... but when I think back to my discovery process... if I were to have been met with evasion or a reticence to speak freely... I likely would have turned away.



> Maybe this guy was booted for some reason -- until I know who we are talking about, I have no idea.


First let me say, I don't know who this person is. Let me follow that up by saying, I don't really think it matters. Regardless of who they are or why they are no longer part of a given organization... I can certainly predict this... they can do, what they can do! Maybe its good, maybe its bad, but their skills are their own, and whatever political issues exist between them and anyone else, it doesn't change what they can do.



> and not get involved in the 'he said - she said'
> muck that so many forums cater to.


oooh... you need to send me some links :ultracool 



> Such banter is rarely beneficial, overall.


Isn't that what the British said in the 1770's :wink: 



> Again, just my personal opinion.


Mine too. :idunno: 

Arthur


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## NYCRonin (Sep 22, 2004)

Arthur,
  Since neither of us knows the EXACT details of the reason this 'other forums' post was begun - -neither of can reply in anything but the widest of concepts. As you are the main guide behind one of the two most respected of Systema forums in N. America -- you know as well, actually even better than I; that some 'general posts' can reflect an agenda...and be very misleading -- though I dont believe that this posts starter has such.

Its almost like asking "Is war a bad thing"? Yes...it can be, but then again -- it might be the very best thing for all concerned.

The actual information of the post that you said was deleted would provide much to work with. We both know of guys who claimed to be Systema teachers that were told to, respectfully; stop doing so. Also, guys who were never qualified, as you and I are; to claim such authorization.

I also must agree about you point of 'politics' -- when i was a teenager, and a blackbelt in another m.art -- there was a major rift between the main starters of the "national karate federation' and within a short time, the leader of the art I was in actually wrote to a (then) major publication and announced that 'this and that guy' were no longer blackbelts in the art - as though they were stripped of their vast experience and knowledge along with their black cloth and papers. Since the post was started for a 'I read..in a forum..about" manner - and not from an "I actually wanted/ went to see if this guy was proficient.." point -- I, personally; feel that 'forum hearsay' has little to do with one on one investigation..investigation we BOTH believe is the proof of the pudding.


And, I also agree; that M.Talk has always been very open and neutral ground for a wide range of m.a. subjects -- but in this instance, I felt there was little to be gained by implying that an un-named person was no longer authorized to teach Systema....and had nothing else to go on -- no name, no personal knowledge of the guy..and thats why I suggested a personal contact with him, if possible. Just not enough exacts to go on..and nothing more.

As far as 'he said-she said' links go -- dude, you are far more an experienced surfer than I am. Hell, I would look to you for the answer to that question...also John 'poobear' Elliot, as well. You guys can 'hang ten' with the best of them!

Overall, I doubt that you would have received the post starting thread well on your own RMA site (www.RMAForum.com -- for those who want to look into this great site!). Although you also are very open (as is M.Talk) -- you also as for specifics, or the members there do.

I cant help but see this starting post as more of a 'he said-she said' type of thing...and since the other forums post seems to be gone, as you mentioned; perhaps the MODS there felt the same way as well.

Your reply raised valuable points for consideration, as always - my friend. As a MOD here, I really have no desire to restrict anyones investigations of the art we both love so much....there was just too much 'generality' for me not to advise direct contact with the party involved....and if it had been done, and posted here -- it might have spurred a lively discussion for all concerned.


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## WillFightForBeer (Sep 22, 2004)

Actually Arthur, I believe the school that they were talking about was yours. I couldn't decide whether or not to participate in that thread. Dave'll know more.

-Ilya


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## WillFightForBeer (Sep 22, 2004)

Just read the whole thread (which seems to be very much alive) and WOW!

There's ******** left, there's ******** right, there's ******** EVERYWHERE.

One guy claims he is going to a Russian SpecialForces training camp (Not Vlad's) with a Systema school who is in the "Russian Martial Art Hall of Fame". 

Another guy is promoting RRB and claiming he can jump out of speeding cars onto asphalt.

Dave is trying his best to keep his cool and explain the situation.

I just burst and in two sentences tried to insult as many people as possible.

Wow. Read the thread. That's some goofy *** ****.

-Ilya


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## Jay Bell (Sep 22, 2004)

> One guy claims he is going to a Russian SpecialForces training camp (Not Vlad's) with a Systema school who is in the "Russian Martial Art Hall of Fame".




Gidduck's is very legit...and his students do make trips to Russian and train apart from Ryabko.


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## RMACKD (Sep 22, 2004)

From what I have heard Gidduck is a legit practicioner. On the thread it says that some schools were kicked out because they didn't come back to retest for being an instructor. Others just may have learned it from someone different or form other organazations.


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## WillFightForBeer (Sep 23, 2004)

Wow. Oh how eloquent Jim is. He comes in, insults everyone, talks, and takes all the credit.

Once I get my account back I'll post a little something, seeing as how somebody is impersonating me on the very same thread.

 :jedi1: 

-Ilya


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## RMACKD (Sep 23, 2004)

You mean the jimmy Lee guy? He never insulted anyone. You however seem to owe Gidduck an apology. Also why did you insult the Kachidikov style anyway?


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## NYCRonin (Sep 23, 2004)

Oh damn!
Here we go!

He said-she said.
You said-I said.
And then delivered to M.talks door, gift wrapped.

Its simple, I am lucky enough to 'MOD' this forum -- and its a trust that I hold dear. I am also a certed Systema instructor (whatever that may be..lol) -- but personally, I dont care for dirty laundry from ANY other forum to be aired here.

Still, as Arthur has noted and I agree -- THIS is an open forum and very very flexible in its manner and content.

You can ping pong the ball back and forth as much as you wish...in fact, please do so!

Just keep it within the bounds of civility.
AND - since I am so close to the issue and The System -- I will sit back and see what develops...though my fellow MODS are more than welcome to oversee this thread and suggest and comment.


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## Arthur (Sep 23, 2004)

> Actually Arthur, I believe the school that they were talking about was yours.


Ug! Getting dragged into this type of crap is one of the reasons I decided to go independent. I've been able to access the thread now, and have read it.

Dave makes one comment about us not being officially affiliated anymore, and and somehow everything else in the thread starts getting associated with us (I've heard some things in some emails too, and gotten some interesting questions).

So let me take this opportunity to set a few things straight.

1. I am a certified instructor of Systema, and my credentials are still up to date.

2. I was not kicked out of the Systema organization. There was a period of a day where it looked like I had been "let loose". It turned out to be a misunderstanding. A few people who aren't sure what minding their own buisiness means, related to the Vasilievs that I had released an "official book and DVD on Systema" without having gottten official permission from Vladimir first.

Of course in reality, there was no book, and was no DVD, and after Vladimir and I discussed it, all was fine. I did however, request that my name be left off the affiliates list.

3. Vladimir is still my teacher.

4. I still teach Systema. I also teach a generic version of RMA alongside it, for those that learn better and/or enjoy being taught in some ways that aren't pure Systema. If you ask real nicely, I might even occasionally teach something else. ;-)

All that said, and having read the original thread in question... I think the initial overflow to here was a bit askew. Rob and I both answered a question at length, which I don't really think was much of an issue in the original thread.

Furthermore, what was I thinking when I said to Rob this should be a freezone... I'd made the mistake of thinking the RMA community had grown up. I guess I mistook a cease fire for peace. Upon further reflection, if I was the Mod here, I think I'd consider shutting this down.

Arthur
PS Just wanted to mention for the record... as to Ilya owing John Gidduck an apology... note the part in here where he mentions someone is impersonating him over there. It isn't him. Though, he may perhaps owe one somewhere else.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 23, 2004)

All that being said, feel free to talk about whatever you guys want,  but as 
NYCRonin said please keep it within the rules of the forum (and you have so far).

Arthur I still owe you a visit  would you pm or email me and give me a class times and address again please
Sheldon


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## WillFightForBeer (Sep 23, 2004)

To whomever I owe an apology, consider myself having apologized.

However. Being a member of both the ROSS and Systema communities, I think it is allowed for me to say that IMHO something is very wrong with the RMA's. 

They are the absolute best martial arts in the world. God knows, if I had the money I would study them 24/7. I love them more than I love......many things.

And to see some jackass insulting everyone, saying that Systema is a load of bull, and to see people come on and believe the poison spewing from his mouth, then that hurts me personally. My age is a handicap, but I got into the RMA's this early for a reason. As a newbie I recognized the declining quality of discussion, of comradery, of everything that holds the Arts together, and I knew that if I were to train I needed to train THEN!

I am not sure how Arthur feels about it, but he has taught me Systema, and from what little time I had I could only begin to understand just how amazing both the art and my teacher were. 

Hopefully this is just a "hiccup in the process". Maybe a few years from now everyone will be at peace, but we are most certainly not on that path, and it saddens me deeply.

-Ilya


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## WillFightForBeer (Sep 23, 2004)

RMACKD said:
			
		

> You mean the jimmy Lee guy? He never insulted anyone. You however seem to owe Gidduck an apology. Also why did you insult the Kachidikov style anyway?



No I don't mean the Jimmy Lee guy, I mean Jim King. Of course he finds it easy enough to not mention his last name out of "modesty" yet brag about his accomplishments.

I never insulted the Kadochnikov style.

-Ilya


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## NYCRonin (Sep 23, 2004)

OK -- looks like I wont be resting on this thread...and thats very cool with me!

Arthur is as 'current' he says he is. He will ALWAYS be a part of the RMA (I do so dearly hope) and my friend (0f this fact - I have NO doubt). I would be in Boston ASAP if he ever needed my presence. He wont though -- but this offer will always stand! Arthur stands very well..on his own two feet!

BEER - no appologies necessary, from my point of view.

The Systema is simply experiencing the NORMAL growing experince....and in 41 years of m.a. -- man, I have seen it so often to know it is normal.

The problem with web talk is that it is rarely real time stuff -- and so often the reality revealed is very different than the written word, frozen in time. ^ months from NOW -- the thread might be resurected by another well meaning and curious soul. Limits of the medium. This soul will be very out of touch with real time.

And as far as Jim King goes....he is every bit as entitled to be himself as anyone else on the web is...and even as we are very close friends...he would be the first to admit that his writing style is abit forceful...but the man himself is very warm and human. As we all are, da?

The Systema community. It is changing, yet the 'crew' rides the waves as the multitudes swell the ranks. The older seniors will hang ten with any newbie -- and always be there for the true 'seeker'...thats been my experience.

John Guidduk. I really like the man -- he was responsabile for my trip to Russia in 2001, and he will always have my respect for that. Personally, again: I take such things to heart.

Overall -- as this forums direct MOD - I did not want to close this thread. The RMA is a VERY small component of the m.a. community -- and as long as we are respectful and civil -- why restrict the flow?

Systema..as an 'art'..and as a community -- is very new and unique!
The many members speak from their heart...and CAN handle the truth!
Growing pains are totally un-avoidable.

BUT - true respect and friendship...caring and personal growth --- is a very deep well to draw cool water from. 

OK - I was thirsty...I am quenched for NOW! And its time to sit back and see what develops or watch this thread settle to the bottom.




A tempest in a vodka glass. Been there and done that before!


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## SonnyPuzikas (Sep 23, 2004)

Ilya- don't worry about Systema. Systema can take care of itself- as it does. Take care of own training and things important. As Rob mentioned- more than few, that are in Systema for some time are somewhat of a "uncivilised" in the manner of expressing opinions- straight and forcefull. Ilya- you are Russian... Word "mysl" (thought)- do you know the origins of that word?
Vladimir told me it comes from "my" (plural- we), meaning "I, myself" and "slivat"- meaning to pour. With some time in Systema, if you are honest with self, others and training, it can transform person, where he "pours himself" out, without concern of making it nice, politically correct or dressing it up as to hide real meaning. It's not an easy way in life and society to be like that- but it's right and honest. How the recipient of such opinion handles it- it is up to him. Seems like you took offense- this time because Jim guessed- not implied- that it could have been you posting some BS, and I'm guessing from some time back, when same Jim answered somewhat forcefully when you tried to coach him in the discussion. Don't hold grudges, Ilya. Find the reason for feeling that way- very often its within. And Jim being good friends with Vlad and one of the most skilled instructors under him- thats not credentials. Those are facts.
Cheer up, comrade... stay positive. It's Russian way. artyon:


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## NYCRonin (Sep 24, 2004)

Sonny is very correct!
You have a full lifetime to walk this way -- though you may not realize this yet...as we older ones do.

Time 'on the job' does give a certain perspective that youthful enthusiasm does not equal....and Illya, let your time serve you well. Be the 'good person' that is the Systema ideal...it is your cultural heritage, young rebel.

Do The Work...politics be damned! Shoot for the moon..for even if you miss..surely, you will land amongst the stars!

Sonny is very much in tune with the beat of Systema's heart....listen and learn...move into your future comfortably.


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## MattW (Sep 26, 2004)

You know, having read this thread, I would like to agree with Arthur when he said something along the lines of: What does it matter if someone is an affiliate of this organization or that organization? Its about his skill, not his franchise agreement and not the politics. If he is a good person, good teacher, and all around great guy, why not learn from him? If he was "booted" from an affiliation, that does not take away the fact that he may have a wealth of knowledge to share. 

Hell, I heard from a couple places that Arthur was "booted" from the affiliation, but it doesn't matter if he is or wasn't, which he clearly wasn't. I think people should go to the source of the rumor and find the truth. Its a good thing Arthur was around to clear this up, because I know it was not the first time I've heard this. It just bugs me when people spread rumors that they hear down the grapevine without evening thinking about confirming them. Either way, Arthur is a brilliant martial artist and I wouldn't care at all if he was an affiliate of Vlad's or not. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## WillFightForBeer (Sep 26, 2004)

Oh man!

God knows..........Arthur is the best teacher and martial artist that I have EVER had the fortune of meeting, and that I can EVER hope to meet! 

This is a rumor that has surfaced numerous times through both private discussions and more public ones such as here.......and it doesn't change a thing.

Arthur still knows what he knows and teaches what he teaches, and boy, that's a LOT!

Oy! Sonny, you're right.......time to loosen up.
artyon: 

-Ilya


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## jellyman (Sep 27, 2004)

I'll just add that when systema guys gather 'round in Toronto and Arthur's name comes up, those that know him (including senior instructors at club Vlad) have the same consensus: real smart guy, understands systema better than most, can do systema, can teach systema, worthy of anyone's respect. :asian: Just wish we could see him more often. 

Your lady represented real well in Hamilton, Arthur


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## JimKing (Sep 27, 2004)

Forgive the delay in my response to the posts on this forum as well as those on elsewhere. Regretfully, my first post to Martialtalk is wasted with a matter such as this. Apparently, things I have said and NOT SAID are the source for much conversation these days. First, I am Jim/Smersh5 on the FightAuthority forum. There is no covert reason why I did not give my last name. I was merely doing the same thing many on this forum are doing even now in this thread, giving only what was necessary to have a conversation. We all leave enough clues to our complete identity through what we say. In the forum I usually frequent, my full name is necessary to give proper context to my humanity. In the FA forum, Ias others hereexpect those with whom I converse to do some of the homework themselves. To avoid the same misunderstandings here, I am known as Jim King. Novel! 



Second, in all of my posts in any forum, I am always careful to choose the correct words for the thoughts I wish to convey. The context that drew a response from me at the FA forum was (1) disparaging comments were being made about the System, Vlad, and Mikhail by individuals of another style with a marketing focus at the expense of the System and these gentlemen themselves, and (2) inaccurate statements were being made about some murky goings-on within the Systema community starting about 8 months ago. What caught my attention most was the idea instructors were being kicked out. In the context of the conversation, this excommunication was unjustly banning people of quality. By extension, Vlad and his organization was the source of this activity. I was brought to this outrageous thread by a poster questioning this premise in here at Martialtalk. I personally was incensed and chose to answer when I saw this baseless statement-whether accidentally ambiguous or truly believedwas made by someone from within our community. 



The words of my first posts purposefully did not mention any instructors names. Instead, I chose to give a generic response to satisfy outside seekers who may have been led to believe something was going on behind closed doors. Others from within the Systema community chose to make what I had said say more. Nowhere in my posts do I specifically reference or generically allude to any instructor, nor do I denigrate any individual who is no longer officially affiliated with Vlad. Quite the opposite, I bend over backwards to state several of those who chose a different direction chose their own way and were highly qualified in martial arts. Refusal to re-certify was not some political act from Vlad, but rather the result of former instructor personal choice. Of course, people will read what they want to see. The wording of my post was specifically crafted to answer the charge some people were kicked out. This was not the case. No personal issue existed between Arthur and me prior to these threads; I do not appreciate others trying to make one now. For all you conspiracy theorists in the family, is it possible my general reference may have a broader scope than just one person? If you wish to make your own personal context from what I said, do not make me responsible for your over-interpretation, misinterpretation, or lack of interpretation. Make your thoughts your own! 



Third, as to the all the talk about stolen identities and such. Enough already. When someone under an established identity makes ridiculous comments to illicit a strong negative response in one forum, how do you expect anyone to come to any other conclusion except that the statements made were from the speaking identity when the same persona takes responsibility for them in another forum? There is far too much fuzzy logic going on here. My head hurts from trying to comprehend the chaos swirling around the porcelain bowl. I have spelled out my take on all this at FA, so I will not belabor the point here. 



In short, this whole event was caused by some our own seeing conspiracies where none existed. When I made a general explanation to dispel the nonsense to those on the outside, the conspiracy believers on the inside added their own details and interpretations and then yelled, A-ha! I told you so! Maybe we should be asking why are some so ready and willing to jump at the opportunity to believe in such conspiracies in the first place? We are our own worst enemies. Zealous, blind students who knee-jerk defend affiliate instructors at any cost before we even know the truth of what has been said. Is this why some voices are heard less than others in our community? Because it is much easier for honest people to train honestly on the mat than it is to listen to others talk honestly in a forum?



Jim King


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## NYCRonin (Sep 28, 2004)

Well worded and concise....with the 'Pumpkin King' touch!
Jim, I do regret that your first post in this forum was used in another' tempest in a vodka glass' response..but I am personally glad you did so.

And, I hope that the matter that started this is settled to the contentment of all concerned. I myself never did read the other forums post that started this....and still feel that it didnt belong here.

Still, if it brought this forum to the attention of Jim...then it did, I hope; serve a good purpose -- and that he will occassionally return, when he has the time and interest to do so; and share with this forum his thoughts and experience.

AND -- I now hope that this can gracefully float to the bottom..and more interesting and relevent material arrives for discussion.


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## TAZ (Sep 28, 2004)

late to the discussion and a short note to add..just before it settles to the bottom...

we are our own worst enemies!...lets just do the work and judge people on the work that they do....remember ego and pride should be left at the door! not just in training but in all aspects of life...if we had truly mastered this would this thread have happened??

Regards

Dave (TAZ) Collins

artyon:


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## WillFightForBeer (Sep 28, 2004)

I cleared my side up on the FA thread, I don't see this as even needing to go any further.

-Ilya


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## RMACKD (Sep 28, 2004)

Everything is cleared up. No one was kicked out of the systema organazation. I came to the wrong conclusion when I saw the thread and saw that DCcohen said that his school was not part of the systema body and some interesting things have happened in the last 6 months. The interesting things thing is what I got wrong. I know schools that practice independently but I accidently thought bad things instead of whatever he talked about.They still do Systema but they just do choose to be independent for various reasons. So I do not see why everyone is arguinng on this thread. Never knew it would get this crazy. Oh well. Happy training everyone.


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## Arthur (Sep 30, 2004)

I don't really have any desire to see this thread's life renewed, but it feels like I owe a small post.

Jim said:


> No personal issue existed between Arthur and me prior to these threads; I do not appreciate others trying to make one now.


I really wasn't perceiving any issue. I never felt attacked in any of this. I don't really understand how people started associating so many things born out of these threads with me.

I'm not sure if anyone was trying to engineer a problem, but if they were, it didn't have any effect on this end.

Some other people said:


> _paraphrasing for brevity_ - Some nice things about me.


Thanks for the nice words and thoughts.

Now please let's let this die.

Arthur


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## Clive (Oct 25, 2004)

:idunno: 


 :flame:


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