# Do "Forms" help at all with Freestyle?



## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

If we practice forms, is this a help at all with our freestyle ability or should we concentrate on other types of training material?


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## Rob Broad (Dec 14, 2003)

If a person practices and *learns*  a form the combinations in it will start to show up in their sparring.  The key is to practice diligently and analyze what you are doing.  Then with enough repitions the motions will start to become natural and they will start to appear in sparring when your instincts take over.


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## Rainman (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *If we practice forms, is this a help at all with our freestyle ability or should we concentrate on other types of training material?
> 
> *




Forms are a combination of basics.  Basics are isolated movements in physical application.  Concepts, Theories, and Principles when isolated are basics as well.  Forms combine CTP with movement.  When basics are combined there now is technique.   

So if it is established that basics consist of isolated physical movements and isolated CTP we have a beginning.  Then we move on to combinations of basics which are techniques.  A collection of techniques with common themes make up forms.  Forms use concepts, theories and principles to drive them because they are a combination of basics.  What are basics?  Singular movements and singular concepts, theories and principles.

Freestyle is a combination of basics.  Samething with one major exception, destruction of the opponent in the physical instead of in theory.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2003)

Forms are important to freestyle. It gives you the oportunity to practice the basics without worrying about neutrality or even hitting a real target. You can work on moving from point A to point B with the propper form. Once you have practiced not over-extending your basics the act of adding an opponent should only require additional adjustments for neutrality and distance.
Sean


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 14, 2003)

I believe forms are the most important part of many for training. Understanding the forms give you better clarity when performing your basics. Being more proficient at forms means each basic(s) is getting that much better.:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Forms are important to freestyle.
> Sean *



I agree, but what exactly do they allow you to extract that is so important other than clarity of basics and coordination?

(this is not just directed at TOD but everyone)

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 14, 2003)

Transitions from techniques to tech. This gives us a good base to spend ample time on practicing the "what if" scenario. When something goes wrong our mind is already trained to move into the next movements (if trained properly).  The freestyle techniques are like another set of self-defense however different. They are all just another great example of concepts in motion that were handed down to us. :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I agree, but what exactly do they allow you to extract that is so important other than clarity of basics and coordination?
> 
> (this is not just directed at TOD but everyone)
> ...


 Forms, along with any other part of the art, can always be improved upon. Forms can be that cherry red corvette you are always waxing. They are trophies of motion. Your skill can be judged by others without bloodshed, and that is important because with other parts of the art your physical attributes play such a large role that a big guy might judge himself a Martial Arts god until he meets someone bigger; reversly, a small guy have self esteem issues, if he is the smallest in the group. Forms put all that aside to show whom been working and whom needs a little work.
Sean


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

The more I practice forms, the more "in tune" or aware of myself I become.  I gain a lot of "self awareness which allow me to feel what I am looking like to the opponent.  It also allows me the versatility of technique selection against my opponent more clearly.  But that is just me.


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## RCastillo (Dec 14, 2003)

But as many techs as there are, what determined which ones would fit in, there are so many of them!

Even so, what's to prevent from some "new ones" being created to include many other good techs left out?


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## MartialArtsGuy (Dec 14, 2003)

"The more I practice forms, the more "in tune" or aware of myself I become. I gain a lot of "self awareness which allow me to feel what I am looking like to the opponent. It also allows me the versatility of technique selection against my opponent more clearly. But that is just me."

Well, it's just me too sir. I was going to say something similar about how forms develop focus in the moment and awareness.
Kinda like that mind no mind thing.

The best thing I like about forms is that they accomplish so much just with one training method. They work your mind as you and I stated. They work your basics in transition. They do the things others have listed here. They contain the "moves" a system has to offer. Another big thing is that they can be a  great cardio and muscular workout. Many dont seem to think there is much of a health system in EPAK but if you do those forms hard, fast and over and over, you have yourself a grueling workout. This workout really touches on much of the major muscle groups too. I love forms. 

Unfortunently some look at them on a superficial level and miss much of the value. They dont know how to interpret the info and dont know how the concepts in the forms relate to training against a live opponent.

I have said it before and I'm not trying to hijack your thread sir but here is another chance for me to say it again. There are 3 divisions of EPAK as outlined by Mr. Parker in Infinite Insights. They are, 1-Basics,    2-Self-defense,   3-Freestyle

Forms fall under division number 1. They develope skills you can use under division number 3 (freestyle) Which is where the whole resistant opponent thing comes in. If you are training the system correctly, the things you learn in all three divisions come together to make you a well developed martial artist. 

You should have a decent level of conditioning, strong basics, a good understanding of motion and self-defense, a keen sense of awareness, and have also developed the attributes needed to make it all work in an alive situation. If anyone would like further clarification I'd be happy to explain more and refer you to an indepth explaination by Mr. Ed Parker.

Great post Sir, I love it, when you do that. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> But as many techs as there are, what determined which ones would fit in, there are so many of them!
> *



Yes, you have many choices... so you use what ever comes to mind at the time or the choice weapon for the need.  In this case, I was thinking of "techniques" in terms of Weapons utilized... i.e. backfist, reverse punch etc., not any particular self defense training series.




> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Even so, what's to prevent from some "new ones" being created to include many other good techs left out? *



Nothing.....


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## RCastillo (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Yes, you have many choices... so you use what ever comes to mind at the time or the choice weapon for the need.  In this case, I was thinking of "techniques" in terms of Weapons utilized... i.e. backfist, reverse punch etc., not any particular self defense training series.
> 
> 
> ...



So, whatcha waitin' for?


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

> Freestyle is a combination of basics. Samething with one major exception, destruction of the opponent in the physical instead of in theory.



I think you could expound on that even more.

Freestyle is the best way to practice freestyle. Forms will help your mechanics, but if you dont get out on the mat to spar, you won't progress as fast.

All aspects of the arts help each other in some way. But they aren't the same.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think you could expound on that even more.
> 
> Freestyle is the best way to practice freestyle. Forms will help your mechanics, but if you dont get out on the mat to spar, you won't progress as fast.
> ...


I disagree. So many bad habbits can develop that sparring drills and forms are essential. I feel the isolation of aspects of freestyle is the best way to work on individual aspects of sparring and freestyle. We all pick our favorite moves, and our partners may not feel capable of pointing out you flaws without ticking you off. To much freedom to do what you want may hinder your progress.
Sean


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## Rainman (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think you could expound on that even more.
> 
> Freestyle is the best way to practice freestyle. Forms will help your mechanics, but if you dont get out on the mat to spar, you won't progress as fast.
> ...




Freestyle is going to be your proving ground in many cases.   Without the numerous hours spent on foot manuevers and other basics plus  the combining of the basics you are going to eat a lot of mat.  Basics are going to be a linking factor to freestyle, forms and techniques.  

You are right there are differences but it is more important to look for the similarities and the linking elements.  Here are three of the differences, no resistence, some resistance, and a lot of resistance and this changes with the level of understanding and experience.   Next are the four ranges.  After that they all become the same thing.  I am not sure at all if your superconscious mind knows the difference  between these three particular areas after a certain point in your training.    For me when I do let go and relax all the way there is no difference if feeling for the 3 elements of Kenpo I mentioned.


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## MisterMike (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *I disagree. So many bad habbits can develop that sparring drills and forms are essential. I feel the isolation of aspects of freestyle is the best way to work on individual aspects of sparring and freestyle. We all pick our favorite moves, and our partners may not feel capable of pointing out you flaws without ticking you off. To much freedom to do what you want may hinder your progress.
> Sean *



With what aspect do you disagree? Because I am right 

Forms will help your mechanics, but to be the best at freestyle, you have to freestyle.

Rainman went into further detail about what aspects of the form practice can help, but you need to freestyle to practice range. By this, it can also mean doing freestyle drills.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 15, 2003)

I think one of the primary things Form teach, at least at one level, is an intimate knowledge of ranges.  This is essential in sparring, whatever flavor you prefer, and if you practice Forms correctly, with an opponent in mind, you find all the ranges addressed.

Some of the best fighters I have ever seen control range, not necessarily equated with "stay out of range", but they stay at the limit of your range forcing a committment or over-comminttment.  Then you are playing to their strengths.

-Michael


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## Chronuss (Jan 6, 2004)

I feel forms are very helpful.  They show each person his or her own range of motion when executing a particular basic or technique.  They can also show us many ways to move that we may not have originally thought of or imagined.  They help in assisting the mind and body which techniques or basics can be coupled fluidly to create one motion or follow-ups that may not have previously though of.  

When sparring newer students, they tend to develop a pattern that can be easily picked off.  When they learn a new technique or form, it'll alow them to see that there are other combinations or patterns that can work and can be used effectively.


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