# Age, rank, and knowledge



## Tsuki-Yomi (Jan 13, 2009)

A few months back I was having a discussion with a non Bujinkan teacher about age and rank. I wont disclose any names,but I thought I would see how everyone else feels about this stuff. Anyway,this teacher spoke of how back in the early days of the Bujinkan you never heard of any practitioners in there early twenties reaching the ranks of shidoshi or shihan,but in the present time we see the exact opposite. His mentality was that these young guys/girls are getting these high ranks way to fast,and that they were not earning there grades like those of the early days of the Bujinkan. Now I didnt get offended at him for claiming young teachers have zero to offer,but deep down I felt his statement had a hidden insult towards Hatsumi sensei in the fact that Soke promotes these youngsters to such high grades in the first place. Personally I feel age is just a number,and these guys/girls obviously have the skill,and knowledge to back up that rank,but what do you all feel? Should we see shihan and shidoshi in there early to mid twenties,or does it send mixed signals to outside eyes? By mixed signals I mean people questioning the fact that someone can achieve shihan or shidoshi with less than twenty years experience.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 21, 2009)

I admit I have never met Hatsumi, but after reading his books and watching videos of him teaching, plus the experience I have with my own teachers, I believe hatsumi cares nothing for rank. The idea that any martial art should even have ranks above 10th dan seems almost as a confirmation of hatsumi not caring. I'm not in the bujinkan and never have been, so I don't know the inner workings of the politics of the group.

As far as shidoshi being in their twenties...if a person is good enough age shouldn't hold them back...if they are good enough.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm going to have to agree with Kenshin, age shouldn't matter too much. True enough, there's a maturity level that's expected of people of a certain age, but if you're given the rank of shidoshi, it's because you've mastered what you need to, not because you're old enough.

That said, Hatsumi has said flat out that he doesn't care about ranking that much. It's an aesthetic item, used to boast pride.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 21, 2009)

When you chaps are talking about _shidoshi_ you mean ranks up to and including _shidan_ don't you?

I don't feel that anyone in their early twenties should be attaining such rank, even tho' it is in practical terms perfectly legitimate for them to do so if they started young enough.

This has nothing to do with technical competence but is more down to the fact that emotional maturity is still a ways off for people so young. They need more time to absorb the philosophical aspects of martial arts before given the credability of higher rank.

Of course, the umpteen dan grades in ninjutsu cloud the issue a little but the core concept is still a valid one. My iai sensei is in his seventies and has been in training for fifty-odd years and is 'still' a 'mere' _rokudan hanshi_. That is where the gravitas of 'rank' comes from ... experience.

I can understand entirely the public disdain Hatusmi sensei has for rank - it is all too often used a way of keeping 'score' in a too shallow fashion rather than attention being paid to the need for true seasoning of a person once they have passed the stage of learning physical technique.


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## seasoned (Jan 21, 2009)

Tsuki-Yomi said:


> A few months back I was having a discussion with a non Bujinkan teacher about age and rank. I wont disclose any names,but I thought I would see how everyone else feels about this stuff. Anyway,this teacher spoke of how back in the early days of the Bujinkan you never heard of any practitioners in there early twenties reaching the ranks of shidoshi or shihan,but in the present time we see the exact opposite. His mentality was that these young guys/girls are getting these high ranks way to fast,and that they were not earning there grades like those of the early days of the Bujinkan. Now I didnt get offended at him for claiming young teachers have zero to offer,but deep down I felt his statement had a hidden insult towards Hatsumi sensei in the fact that Soke promotes these youngsters to such high grades in the first place. Personally I feel age is just a number,and these guys/girls obviously have the skill,and knowledge to back up that rank,but what do you all feel? Should we see shihan and shidoshi in there early to mid twenties,or does it send mixed signals to outside eyes? By mixed signals I mean people questioning the fact that someone can achieve shihan or shidoshi with less than twenty years experience.


 
No. I'm sorry but this whole world is turned upside down enough. Let wisdom stay where it belongs. With age comes wisdom, with wisdom comes true knowledge. There is a saying that goes something like this "youth is wasted on the young". Good saying, it must have come from a dad or grandfather. Don't ya think.


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## Tsuki-Yomi (Jan 23, 2009)

> I was promoted to Judan at 26 years old. I was recommended by Arnaud, RVD, and Noguchi Shihan. I felt very blessed to have such great martial artists believe in me. When I was promoted It was a total surprise! I was in shock when it happened. I did not take being a Judan lightly. When I was promoted It was something for me to grow into, not something I was. instead of feeling like "wow I made it I can relax now" I felt that I now more then ever I represented Soke and I had better make sure I did that as best as I could.
> 
> In my opinion being a Shihan has not much to do with ability, but more about being trusted to transmit the art properly. It means you are committed to Soke and to follow what he asks of us. He said my first trip to Japan " If you dont come here every year, you dont know my art" I committed to going every year right then and there.
> 
> ...


This was just a response I wanted to share that went along with my original question. I then followed up by asking this question.



> Now as far as my question to you,you said its your opinion being promoted to Shihan has anything to do with ability,rather it has more to do with the fact that not only Soke, but these three shihan that reccomend you feel you can properly transmit the art. Now I am not equating this to you, because I have seen clips and whatnot of seminars by you,and you are very effortless in what you do,but what about these guys/girls that dont posses that ability? How can they properly transmit an art in which there may be certain aspects that do require some sort of ability? Say these shihan can do the techniques,but they just dont have the ability to teach it flawless,by flawless I mean showing these student s where the safe spot is,or proper timing and angling. Now these are just examples, but if they are teaching the students only half correct material, how is this transmitting the art properly?


 Just figured I would throw those out there to further the discussion.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 23, 2009)

Could you give us some attribution for those quotes, *Tsuki*?  It'd be nice to know whose words they were.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 23, 2009)

*Yes Tsuki-Yomi, clarification would be great.*


On the subject this art is Hatsumi Sensei's to do with as he see's fit.  It does reflect his attitude or rank being insignificant and yet it is what others will judge him or those with rank from him by.


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## Tsuki-Yomi (Jan 24, 2009)

> *Yes Tsuki-Yomi, clarification would be great.*


*I dont think that would be a problem, I am sure you know or have heard of Shihan Joel Everett?  Great guy, great teacher.  *


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## Sukerkin (Jan 24, 2009)

Well, I've never heard of him but that's not exactly a surprise .  

The only reason why we ask, *Tsuki*, is that it is actually normal practise when quoting someone elses writings, even those on a web forum, to give attribution.  It can save with troubles with copyright and so forth if something is ever deemed to have not been what is called 'fair useage'.


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## jks9199 (Jan 24, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Well, I've never heard of him but that's not exactly a surprise .
> 
> The only reason why we ask, *Tsuki*, is that it is actually normal practise when quoting someone elses writings, even those on a web forum, to give attribution.  It can save with troubles with copyright and so forth if something is ever deemed to have not been what is called 'fair useage'.


And it's only fair, too.  Sure, we all toss some posts of freely.  But we also all work pretty hard on other posts.  It'd be awfully frustrating to see someone else seeming to claim your words, right?


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## Sukerkin (Jan 24, 2009)

Oh aye, I've been there before now - particulary with my work on Gran Turismo suspension tuning :grr:.


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## Tsuki-Yomi (Jan 24, 2009)

I will keep that in mind if I post any other threads here in the future.  I can understand the concerns for plagiarism.


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## emiliozapata (Jan 25, 2009)

I think this question can be evaluated only after it is established, within the system denoting said rank upon these individuals, what it means for someone to hold these ranks. If rank progression is stepped, and is measured by ability to perform certain movements, profess understanding of concepts, know protocol and history etc., then I think you can't question the validity of the rank. Anyone able to perform the requirements should receive the rank.

The problem with a system such as the above is that it cheapens the true meaning of the rank, and essentially devalues it's more esoteric ideas. Commercialism always leads to this type of degradation.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 25, 2009)

Or you could just make up an art then the rank is meaningless anyway.

After all, I am a 150th dan Super Soke in Goober-ryu Kookooshin Karate.


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## emiliozapata (Jan 25, 2009)

150th Dan? Amazing!

In which Dan rank will you learn respect, humility, dignity, honor etc.?


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## Sukerkin (Jan 25, 2009)

Let's not start this particular little circus ride rolling again, gentlemen. 

It profits noone and just edges the participants ever closer to being shown the error of their ways via official means. That is especially so if personally directed insults are posted, no matter how shrouded in disingenuous innocence they may be.


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## emiliozapata (Jan 25, 2009)

Thank You, I was beginning to feel as if I was being cyber-stalked. My grandma once taught me that if one has nothing positive to contribute, then they should remain silent. Hopefully, those posters who insist on demeaning me will heed your kind warning.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 25, 2009)

Now, my 150th dan Super Soke reference was referring to some of the Uber-Sokes like the "Crying Dragon". Last time I checked you never claimed any rank, EZ.

But since you brought it up... Respect isnt somthing I need to learn, it's somthing you need to EARN. You have done nothing to do so thusfar, so don't expect it. Earn it, and I will give it. 

If you take insult into the fact I claimed that rank in made up arts was meaningless, perhaps you need to look inward at why that bothers you so... rather than outward for approval from others. 

And Cyber-stalked? C'mon pal... I have thousands of posts here, dating back to '03. You have 18 total. Sorry to say, Ive been posting in the threads in this section of the forum since before you came on here.  We have posted in TWO of the same threads.  I hardly call that "Stalking".


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## emiliozapata (Jan 25, 2009)

You are correct in that I claim no rank in ninjitsu, Kug Maky Ung Ryu or otherwise. Considering that this journey has just begun, I would place myself in the rank of white belt. We should be our own harshest critics as MAists. This is a principle I hold dear, and consequently will award myself rank only when I feel it worthy. 

There is much work for me to do until I give myself green belt. One of my self imposed requirements is to complete an indoor triathlon I intend to compete in towards the end of March, an event which will be a 45 minute torture test. This is just one of the many technique and conditioning requirements I have designed into my rank structure.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 25, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> Thank You, I was beginning to feel as if I was being cyber-stalked. My grandma once taught me that if one has nothing positive to contribute, then they should remain silent. Hopefully, those posters who insist on demeaning me will heed your kind warning.


 
The Moderating staff here play no favourites, good sir. So please bear in mind that what I said applies equally as much to yourself as it does to any other member.

EDIT: As an aside, given that you're new here you might not be aware of how Moderation works at MT. Unlike many places, there is a graduated scale of responses which are generally applied by successively more senior 'layers' of Staff. 

At present time, what you have seen are what are semi-officially termed 'nudges'. These are posts wherein a member of Staff makes comment on recent posting behaviour in a thread in an attempt to stave off having to move on to an official response (which then starts to impact on a members record). Think of it like a warning from a policeman who does not write you a ticket for a minor or unknowing offence.


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## seasoned (Jan 25, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> You are correct in that I claim no rank in ninjitsu, Kug Maky Ung Ryu or otherwise. Considering that this journey has just begun, I would place myself in the rank of white belt. We should be our own harshest critics as MAists. This is a principle I hold dear, and consequently will award myself rank only when I feel it worthy.
> 
> There is much work for me to do until I give myself green belt. One of my self imposed requirements is to complete an indoor triathlon I intend to compete in towards the end of March, an event which will be a 45 minute torture test. This is just one of the many technique and conditioning requirements I have designed into my rank structure.


 
I feel that, on the beginning of your journey, in your new style or ryu, you have received some good insight from some very knowledgeable martial artist, throughout all of your threads. Your enthusiasm is respected, but on the same token, good common sense is warranted. I am going to assume that you came to this site to share and except good solid advice, of which you have ignored. You yourself said that you would throw together some techniques and principles and, I think you said you would call it a system. I think this is an irritant to martial artist from this site as well as myself, because of some of the wording used. I think anyone that wants to build anything , be it a system of self defense or a car, or a building, would seek advice from people of like mindedness, as a base, because no matter how much knowledge we have as individuals on any given subject, we just don&#8217;t have all of the answers. IMHO, I am just trying to help you out. 
:asian:


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## MBuzzy (Jan 25, 2009)

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## Aiki Lee (Jan 26, 2009)

Ranking in martial arts can be a difficult thing to address. If I understand correctly, Hatsumi couldn't care less what rank someone is as long as they train hard so he promotes people to high ranks without testing their martial ability and allows youthful people to be ranked as Shihan or Shidoshi. This can ensure loyalty to the art by those who reap the benifits as well as provide a confidence boost to those who Hatsumi feels deserve it.

But

The flip side problem is that belt rank is seen by others as a level of attained skill, and Higher ranks should be more powerful in their art than lower ranks. I have seen many high ranking individuals who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, and some who don't even know what the requirements were to earn the belt they are currently wearing!
Giving rank out to those who don't deserve it can have disasterous effects. In can instill false confidence that could lead to a tragic outcome if such a person where to engage in a life or death struggle.

When it comes to rank or titles I think that once you've LEARNED it you've EARNED it.


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## Kreth (Jan 26, 2009)

There's a bit of a culture clash here. Most Westerners view rank as a milestone, something they have earned. In Japan, it's common to promote a promising student ahead of their potential. In return, the student will train harder in an attempt to live up to his new rank.


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## exile (Jan 26, 2009)

Kreth said:


> There's a bit of a culture clash here. Most Westerners view rank as a milestone, something they have earned. In Japan, it's common to promote a promising student ahead of their potential. In return, the student will train harder in an attempt to live up to his new rank.



Hmmm, that's very interesting... I hadn't realized that. That's something that could impact a number of other discussions on the board. 

There is, e.g., a semiactive thread now running about the ranks that the TKD Kwan founders respectively achieved when they were studying Karate in Japan, unker Kanken or Funakoshi. The documentation is spotty at best, and the information in some cases has to be inferred indirectly... but if at least some of them might have been 'pre-promoted' along these lines, that adds another element of uncertainty to the mix.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 27, 2009)

Kreth said:


> There's a bit of a culture clash here. Most Westerners view rank as a milestone, something they have earned. In Japan, it's common to promote a promising student ahead of their potential. In return, the student will train harder in an attempt to live up to his new rank.


 
This  explains a lot. I'm surprised I didn't figure this out myself. I can see arguements for both sides.


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## nitflegal (Feb 3, 2009)

I've traveled a fair amount to different Bujinkan dojos for drop ins and I think it's safe to say that quality and skill within the ranks can vary greatly.  In all honesty, I've long remembered something Glenn Morris said at a seminar back to us back 7-8 years ago, where the varying quality was a test to the members.  If you are a student it's expected that you will evaluate your teacher and move on if you require something more to develop in the art.  If you stay and retard your learning, nobody is going to help you realize you're screwed, you have to realize it yourself.  Considering how many traps there seem to be in the art for the unwary, it makes as much sense as anything.

Matt


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 3, 2009)

Kreth said:


> There's a bit of a culture clash here. Most Westerners view rank as a milestone, something they have earned. In Japan, it's common to promote a promising student ahead of their potential. In return, the student will train harder in an attempt to live up to his new rank.



Absolutely Kreth.  This definitely should bring a new thought to how people perceive their rank.  In that do I deserve it or how do I live up to it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  It is not enough for some one to be promoted and then if they quit or stop training they really are not at that level anymore.  People need to understand that you have to live up to your training.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 8, 2009)

I agree with Kreth on this one. Rank is not the determining factor. Though it would be nice if the level did actually have some bearing on the person. As a rule I've seen it go 2 ways.

When I was in Japan, most definatly there were folks that deserve their rank. I trained with a 10th kyu that obviously had been sitting on that belt for many years or just was naturally talented and with a Sichidan that I wouldn't rank along side my 8th kyus.
Personal opinion and that is all it is. Hatsumi can do with what he wishes. If someone cares enough to look deeper they will see why someone is ranked the way they are, and if it is poor reasoning then well that school may suffer from the loss of a potential student or loss of respect.

Who knows, too many variables.


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 8, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> I agree with Kreth on this one. Rank is not the determining factor. Though it would be nice if the level did actually have some bearing on the person. As a rule I've seen it go 2 ways.
> 
> When I was in Japan, most definatly there were folks that deserve their rank. I trained with a 10th kyu that obviously had been sitting on that belt for many years or just was naturally talented and with a Sichidan that I wouldn't rank along side my 8th kyus.
> Personal opinion and that is all it is. Hatsumi can do with what he wishes. If someone cares enough to look deeper they will see why someone is ranked the way they are, and if it is poor reasoning then well that school may suffer from the loss of a potential student or loss of respect.
> ...


 
This again goes into the culture factor.  The skill difference between two or more people not including yourself is not an issue.  If anyone studied the Japanese corporate business model on promotions and such you can see the parallel in promotions and actual skill.

In the business model, you are grouped with your entry class into the corporation.  As you progress and are promoted, other people around you who started with you will be promoted also.  Does this mean everyone is equal in skill?  No, of course not. (and for the record, I'm not comparing any martial art school to a business.  I am using this as a metophor. trolls lurk everywhere!)

However, it is considered rude and a loss of face to keep someone at a lower management level.  Therefore they are promoted along with their peers. The interesting thing is the people with the most skill level are placed in positions of higher responsibility and "the office without a view". These people don't have time to look out the window as they are busy making things happen.  The lesser skilled manager obviously has the lesser responsibility and "an office with a nice window view"  The reasoning effect being this person with the window is really never going to go anywhere so they may as well enjoy the view and collect the paycheck or be ashamed and try harder for the office without the window or just leave.

What in the world does this have to do with Budo? (little grapes?!-sorry)
Obviously Budo is a Japanese word and the art here is Japanese.  If you don't understand Japanese culture and way of thinking then you won't understand why someone of less skill is ranked higher than a lower rank student.  Does this to apply to all Japanese martial arts? No.  Does it apply to this discussion? Yes.  

Western reward values do not apply here as Kreth pointed out.  I'm more wary of the instructor who thinks "traditional" is bowing to each other before every technique, adhering to a militaristic behavior and "acting more Japanese than the Japanese".  In my experience it's a cover up for not knowing the art.  Some people have a preconcieved notion of how things ought to be and the reality of what it is.  And a lot of this is just ego. Some people want the adoration and awe that comes with a high rank.  I see it all the time with new people and the wide eyes when they see a dark color belt.

This is what I tell people who are new:  "the only person you are competing with is yourself.  That other person's rank has nothing to do with your relationship with your teachers or your ability."  Some people get it and others it seems refuse to get it even though it has been presented to them on a silver platter.  

And as far as my own personal opinion for those who leave because they can't accept the way things are, let them.  It has no bearing on my training. As one of my mentors wrote:  "what we practice has been around for over a thousand years.  Don't you think it's seen greed, ego, pettiness and all the bad and good human behavior?  There is nothing new with what goes on in the world"

For those able to travel to Japan I suggest this: Go with open eyes, open ears and more imporantly an open mind.  Leave your preconcieved beliefs of how things ought to be at home.  Believe me, it will show in your training and how you move. For better or worse your body language will give you away.


I shall now go back to lurking.


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 8, 2009)

Oh, the laughing Icon was supposed to be on the "Budo" little grapes joke.  Sorry, it was a lame attempt at humor!


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## Bujingodai (Feb 8, 2009)

Thank you, I can take alot from what you were saying and how you put it.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 16, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Ranking in martial arts can be a difficult thing to address. If I understand correctly, Hatsumi couldn't care less what rank someone is as long as they train hard so he promotes people to high ranks without testing their martial ability and allows youthful people to be ranked as Shihan or Shidoshi. This can ensure loyalty to the art by those who reap the benifits as well as provide a confidence boost to those who Hatsumi feels deserve it.
> 
> But
> 
> ...


 
My husband/master has always taken to the addage a black belt is not something you wear it is something you become. I missed my testing last week as I was very ill and felt badly for a moment as I was about to test into my first of the advanced junior ranks. I then realized I had no reason to be upset. My skill level had not changed. My sparring ability had not changed. Mentally I had not changed. A belt is something to hold the uniform on a allow someone who does not know me a small insight into my degree  (or lack thereof) skill. In a Budo art that can be a good thing, a bad thing, or an innocuous thing. As long as I have somehthing to keep my gi tied with I really can't complain.

BTW- our school will not put a black belt on anyone under 16 years of age. How can one even talk of leadership or starting to learn how to teach when they have not even finished puberty? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







That is just a thought. My husband did have his art recognized at the tender age of 29. He has studied for 20 years. However I think some above posters are confused when you create your own style you create your own lineage. You become a Soke, Kaiso Sensei, or whichever title you choose to use. This equates with a 10th dan which is an honorary dan ranking. It is not an irrational giving of a rank. There is a big difference between being a 10th dan in Bunjikan and being a founder of a lineage. I will not argue that one further.

Budo,


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 17, 2009)

In genbukan, rank denotes mastery of a specific set of skills.
From 10th kyu to 1st kyu, there are several hundred techniques / skills to be tested. Ditto for dan grades, though I don't know the specifics. Not my problem yet 
Personally I like this way of testing / grading.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> In genbukan, rank denotes mastery of a specific set of skills.
> From 10th kyu to 1st kyu, there are several hundred techniques / skills to be tested. Ditto for dan grades, though I don't know the specifics. Not my problem yet
> Personally I like this way of testing / grading.


 
As is true  for most systems - but when you look at the traditional systems and lineages you have Sokes and Hanshis. A Soke is founder. A Hanshi is usually the holder of the Meiko Geidan after the Hanshi has passed on. Usually the Soke name is only passed if the Soke chooses to pass the Soke title after death. This is a practice that usually saved for those lineages that are from the Budo arts, namely Ninjutsu. This goes to history as Soke also means "Head of Family." The true practicioners on this site should not need more explanation than that.

Budo,


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 17, 2009)

??

I am missing something here. What does your reply have to do with my reply (since you are quoting it)?


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

Maybe I misread what you were saying but I replied to yours as I thought it  was a comment to the above conversations about those who found systems. If it was not than I apologize for the clarification that was not needed.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm with Bruno, you quoted me as well, but I can't tell if you agree, disagree, or have no opinion on what I said.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

I think I just misread because where your posts ended up in location to mine and not what you actually  said so I do apologize if this was not the case. I was more reacting to the comment of creating rank and while I do agree that there are some that give themselves rank that have not had their arts recognized by any legitimate association this is not the case with many of who are the head of a created art which becomes a lineage. That was my only point and I apologize humbly again if any offense was taken by my misreading.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

Here is a great article on the meaning of Soke.

It is by William M Bodiford.
http://www.koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html



> As a Japanese word Soke has never meant "founder" nor does it mean "grandmaster"


 



> the holder of the Meiko Geidan


 You mean Menkyo Kaiden? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menkyo_kaiden


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 17, 2009)

I took no offense, I just didn't understand. Thank you for clarifying your statement.

Thanks for the link Jadecloud, for the longest time I believed that soke was a "grandmaster" title, until my teacher told me that it doesn't really refer to that meaning.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

And I quote:



> One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese  could call himself a soke in english except as a joke


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## STEPS (Mar 17, 2009)

Here is a snippet from a 2005 public interview in Kwoon with Dr. Kacem Zoughari of the Bujinkan. He speaks of rank in the organization and his own journey. The complete interview can be found HERE.

Kwoon:         You seem to be steady at fourth dan even though, from what         I know, progression in the Bujinkan seems to be much faster in terms         of Dans and Menkyo. It          definitely appears to be something which is voluntary on         your part, can you explain this?         

        Corollary: How are your relationships with other Shidoshi         in the Bujinkan?
 
        Kacem Zoughari: Who is that question from? (laughs)         

        I started when I was quite young with Sylvain Guintard, it         was in 1986 and I remember before this my father had been transferred to Algeria and I         was studying at a French high school. I even kept my first registration paper from         the dojo. I started in a club         called the Yamatsuki club and it was located in Charonne.         Four years later, in 1989, I         left for Japan. Just before leaving for Japan the         atmosphere in the dojo (Sylvain had         changed the dojo three times, first the Sanshin dojo in         Portes des Lilas, then one at         Main dOr in Bastille, then at Vincennes) had changed a         lot, and technically speaking I         had my doubts, especially after having seen Hatsumi         senseis videos. I saw that there         was a mixture of techniques from the different schools in         order to cover up a flagrant         
        lack of knowledge, and he also wanted to become part of the         FFKMA (French Karate         and Martial Arts Federation). So many factors contributed         to me taking the major step of         going to Japan, or should I simply say that it was my time         to go.         

        When I got to Japan (in 1989) I was only seventeen years         old, and I had a real shock at         my first class with Ishizuka sensei who was, and still is,         one of Hatsumi Senseis oldest         students. After that, I said to myself that everything I         learned in France before was a         load of... so I was duped, and that really hurt me because         my parents and I had both         invested so much and I was lied to. You might not believe         it, but for a seventeen year         old kid, this was pretty heavy... and I said to myself that         I was stopping with everything         and everyone who called themselves pioneers.         

        During the time I was a student of Guintard everyone was         there: Arnaud Cousergue         was his student and right hand man, there was Dominique         Thibault, Marie Valerie Saumon, Jean Jeacques Kocevar. There were those who came         occasionally to give seminars like Bernard Bordas and Tarik Mesli... and others         whose names I completely forget. In any case I knew them all and saw them climb their         way up.         

        I still remember everything that was said and done and how         things worked. Like many         families there were secrets and tricks which, in         retrospect, I find stupid and completely         unnecessary to the practice of the martial arts. Many years         later I lived in Japan as a         Lavoisier Grant Recipient [from the French Dept. of Foreign Affairs] and I met with Arnaud Cousergue         several times (he goes to         
        Japan two or three times a year and always stays around ten         days) and translated for         him with Hatsumi sensei and even during the classes, but I         also did that for many people over there, for the English, Americans, Swedish,         Germans, Spanish, Brazilians, Canadians, etc... so I met a lo of people in japan.         

        So my relationships with these people are amicable, though         as far as martial arts goes,         thats another story, everyone does their own thing, and         its the same case for everyone         in the Bujinkan whatever the country.         

        I know Bernard Bordas well but I havent seen him in quite         a while. We send each other         messages from time to time and I saw him in Japan in 2002 I         believe, while I was over         there, I think he sojourned for about fifteen or twenty         days. We went to the restaurant         with Hatusmi Sensei and, like for everyone before and after         him, I translated to the best         of my abilities. And like with everyone, we maintained         friendly relations.         

Kwoon:         In what way does your view of grades influence these         relations?

        KZ: As far as I am concerned, I have always held the same         opinion about grading from         the beginning and I might be a little too old school or         uptight for some. First of all, there         are no grades in Ninjutsu and there should not be any. In         the past, and there is substantial historical evidence, there was a system of menkyo like         the one in the classical bujutsu which still exists in certain schools in Japan today.         However, in the process of         opening up to Westerners, Hatsumi sensei adapted himself to         the needs of the time,         even if he knows deep within himself that it doesnt really         mean anything. Its important         to realize that the foreigners who come to Japan, and this         goes for every style, do so         merely to leave with grades, with something legitimate to         show or to use as proof. Its in         
        this way that Hatsumi Sensei gives grades, but the person         who receives it assumes all         responsibility, and in the end its only a piece of paper.         

Kwoon:         You give them no importance?

        KZ: Well, I dont give them any importance, but I do. They         represent a certain amount of         work, and the work has to be done. This means that if you         say you are a fourth, fifth, or         even fifteenth dan, would it not be wiser to place some         value upon that which you present to others either in public or private?         

        We cant simply bury our heads in the sand by telling         ourselves that we exist in some         different martial universe. If you are fourth, fifth, or         sixth dan we need to be at that technical level, that is to say the same as others in their         respective disciplines. Moreover, in Ninjutsu which is the art of a spy, we must be able to         handle any style under any condition. This is where the idea of being harder on oneself and         against oneself in practice         and with respect to the level which we have attained comes         from. I will also add that the         martial arts in general are based on some common points         like: speed, stability, uprightness, rectitude, flexibility... If someone holds a very         high grade and is not able to stay         upright on their own two legs, loses balance, etc... I         sincerely believe that this isnt normal. We need to be honest with ourselves about our own         abilities.         

        Nevertheless, we mustnt lose sight of the true         significance of the term Dan (degree, level, grade, stage, etc.) and the fact that it originates         from an image that is outside martial reality as it was created for martial sports after the         Meiji period whose forms were         touched up after the Second World War. So this image cannot         really explain the level of         a person who practices the Koryu. Of course we search for         an equivalence but it will always be just an equivalence.         

        My approach remains voluntary. I have a teacher; Ishizuka         sensei, and I would feel         awkward accepting a 10th Dan when he holds this grade!         That isnt normal for me.         Even if one day (which I seriously doubt) I become better         than him, for me I would always be lower than him. Its a respect within a respect.         This is very difficult for me to         explain, but this is the way it is for me, and as long as I         work with him I will never hold         back because a true relationship must be based in the         moment of combat or the moment where the technique is realized in real and for reach         the reality. So if I want to get         the right feeling I have to go all the way. If the master         is good he will know how to make         me feel it without destroying me, this is one of the         fundamentals of mastery in Ninjustu         and in all martial arts in general.         

        So automatically I have a fourth dan which I received in         1994, I believe. Since then I         have refused every grade that was offered to me. Why? It is         very simple, it doesnt interest me. A lot of people have gotten involved in the race         to be the first to obtain a certain grade or to get some recognition, this is their         choice. Some other people will [say] I         received from someone and they could not say no. I         understand and I respect their         choice. I always thought differently.         

        Whereas I felt uncomfortable with a 4th Dan where the         expectations are already very         high in even the basic, fundamental techniques. For me,         being a Fourth Dan means being capable of doing and realizing all of the techniques         from the first three levels (shoden, chuden, and okuden) of the nine schools, weapons         included... this was and still is         the requirement.         

        I think that I am at the level of a Third Dan and I am         working and practicing hard to         someday, and of course God willing, be worthy of a Fourth Dan. It is also a question of         honesty with respect to practice, and with respect to the         art. It may be [an] old fashioned         way for many people in the Bujinkan, but I'll not accept         something that I dont deserve by real practice and deep studies.         

        The rest, what other people do and aspire to doesnt matter         to me. They do what they         want. But once again, I think that we shouldnt bury our         heads in the sand with regards         to titles and high grades as there is nothing to acquire in         the classical martial arts and         particularly in Ninjutsu.         

        I have always had the habit, and I think you already know,         that when a person comes to         one of my classes and asks what grade I am, I answer by         saying: You come, watch the         class, and give me the grade you want.         

Kwoon:         Do you feel that a Fourth Dan is a good middle ground         between that which         you demand of yourself and the level of         requirement...

        KZ: That which I demand of myself is far beyond anyone         elses requirements. The people who come here, the people who know me can see it for themselves. Besides, I         never make a display out of my capabilities nor of my         grades or activities. As for my         articles or seminars, other people or editors create         phrases that are catchy or attractive         to get people to come or to buy. The only thing that I can         use is the fact that I am a doctoral candidate and thats because it is what I am doing.         Within the martial arts I am but         
        one small researcher and but one small student of Ishizuka Sensei. I follow Hatsumi Senseis classes just like all the others who go to Japan         and pay their dues. I have         never presented myself as a student or direct disciple of         Hatsumi Sensei as that would         be a great lie. I do not consider myself a student of         Hatsumi Sensei and even if I must         admit to having some kind of relationship to him, the         nature of that relationship has yet         to be defined. I think that a lot of people do not         understand the difference between being         a student or what really means being recognize as a real         disciple is. This difference is         the same as "show", "teach" and "transmission". People love to         hear and create things or their         own story and tell to everyone how great they are, using         the name of Hatsumi Sensei to         back them up is natural and it exists in other organizations         too. I dont think that doing it like         this can help you to move better or to understand better the         art. So once again, I follow the         rules of the Bujinkan for the practice and fellow the rules         presented by the Hatsumi Sensei. But because I respect him and the art very deeply I         can not accept thing that I dont         really deserve.         

        So, yes, I am very demanding of myself and I hope that         it shows in my work and my articles, if not then I shall have to double my effort. I         have also made these requirements         clear to the people who come to my classes, however I am         not responsible for their         level and even less for their actions and their attitude.         After the class is over, twice a         week, I no longer see anyone. Everyone leads their own         life.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

> Soke originated as a Chinese word (Mandarin _zongjia_) with strong familial and religious connotations. Etymologically it is written with glyphs indicating a family that performs ancestor rites. In Chinese texts it designates either the members of a household belonging to the same clan or the main lineage within an extended clan, the head of which was responsible for maintaining the ancestral temple on behalf of the entire clan organization. In Japanese texts as well, soke always implied a familial relationship replete with filial duties. Japanese use of this word was not limited to consanguineous contexts, though, since many kinds of social relationships were organized around pseudo-familial models. Religious societies, commercial enterprises, and teaching organizations all employed familial vocabulary and observed rites of familial etiquette. In these contexts, the term soke often implied exclusivity and commercial privilege, with less emphasis on formal religious duties.


 
This is all from your above link. Now a couple of points:

1) Thank you for squaring me away on my spelling - admittedly it is terrible

2) Hatsumisensei was not the only student of his master - there were others and only those who are of the most closed minded variety would believe there were not other second and third gen students of Hatsumisensei's master teaching a non-glitzed up version of ninjutsu

3) When we speak of secrets etc. they are not these mystical secrets that they are made out to be - it is simply for public forum usage - different uses of weapons that were common to each ryu, ways of making a person look bigger or look as if they could accomplish something that would be impossible- no different than what SF does today

4) Any traditionally run budo style school should be run as a family and therefore know their family lineage. It would also make sense that any budo system new or old would have one soke followed by those who hold the menyko or hanshi. It had to start somewhere unless you are giving way to the superstition you debunked above.

5) While my master does hold a sokeship menyko for the art he is addressed as kaiso sensei by his students and by the way he does have Japanese blood so that is also one heck of an assumption to make.

I wish you peace,


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

Heisaa you can take the issue with Mr. Bodhiford who:

http://www.koryu.com/bio.html#wbodiford

The quotes were his not mine.
Also the Kanji from this site is wrong.
http://www.budoikiryu.com/imagelib/...ucertupload.jpg&target=tlx_new&title=Sensei's Ninjutsu Certification


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Heisaa you can take the issue with Mr. Bodhiford who:
> 
> http://www.koryu.com/bio.html#wbodiford
> 
> ...


 
Again you only show your ingnorance and I will respond to you in exactly the same way I responded to you on the other thread where you made this allegation against the Ryu in which I belong:

No Jade Cloud and your response is both highly offensive to my master, my family, and my Ryu. If you check the site again that certification came from his Shidoshi in Japan so I apologize if your wife takes issue with it or you feel you need to create drama on here but you would be the first to question the validity of those certificates which is why they are there for everyone to see. I can also personally attest to the day they came to the house. I have seen many like you that go out of your way to question the validity of others. Maybe it says something of your own confidence.

Peace be with you 
__________________


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

As I said on the other thread:



> Ok let me explain to you why it is wrong.
> The sentence on the Menkyo looks weird.
> What is Gun-jeijyutsu? Gun-Army Jeijyutsu-art so what army art?
> So what is Gun you meant army or group or what?
> ...


 
I have no problem taking each Kanji and translatiing it and if you do it says what I said it says.

http://www.budoikiryu.com/imagelib/...ucertupload.jpg&target=tlx_new&title=Sensei's Ninjutsu Certification

Anyone who can read Japanese can see it for what it is.

A native Japanese says a Japanese would not write this as such nor make such common mistakes. If you want we can break it down Kanji by Kanji I have no problem with that.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

Also on the Menkyo you should have a stamp and the person who wrote the Menkyo name.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> As I said on the other thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The handwriting on Menyko was never claimed to be Japanese and is not. Take another look and see who the Menyko is from. Secondly, yes the certs are mostly certainly from a native Japanese speaker and writer who I am guessing unless your wife is much older than you are is much older than your wife with much more practice.

This is all I will say more on the topic.

Peace to you,


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## STEPS (Mar 17, 2009)

If you both could take up this matter with each other elsewhere, that would be great. I think it's best we get back on topic.

Thanks


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

OK, just a couple more things from the husband who told me not to get too worked up because he is unconcerned. 

1. There are many different regions with many provincial language differences. Your wife can probably attest to that as well.

2. No there is no name on it. Shidoshi retired and wanted to be left in peace because that is what we practice- the only reason there was any certificate at all is because in America pieces of paper are important.

3. Check your own spelling and English grammar. One could look at your own profile and make the assumption you were not an American yet you are from Miami. This would be incorrect. Think about it. 

4. If you wish to question my husband's translation abilities - why don't you look at the translations he did. Not the ones that others presented him with.

Peace,


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

> The handwriting on Menyko was never claimed to be Japanese and is not


 
But you said:



> If you check the site again that certification came from his Shidoshi in Japan


 
And:


> he does have Japanese blood


 


> Take another look and see who the Menyko is from. Secondly, yes the certs are mostly certainly from a native Japanese speaker and writer who I am guessing unless your wife is much older than you are is much older than your wife with much more practice.


 
No they are not and I already presented evidence showing it is not native Japanese. The only person who is listed that I see on the site who gave a Menkyo is Christa Jacobson who is not Japanese and her Tomo ryu is most likely her creation.
But you know what let other people who can read Japanese see it and tell you the same thing I said I have no problem with that. I presented my case why don't you answer these questions:



> Ok let me explain to you why it is wrong.
> The sentence on the Menkyo looks weird.
> What is Gun-jeijyutsu? Gun-Army Jeijyutsu-art so what army art?
> So what is Gun you meant army or group or what?
> ...


 


> 1. There are many different regions with many provincial language differences. Your wife can probably attest to that as well.


 Yes but still does not justify why the Ninjutsu rank. Which part of Japan then?? Who is the teacher and where in Japan so I can call Japan and ask him myself.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

Here lets talk in Japanese:

jya anata ga kaita sono menkyo wa, nihon no doko no kotoba desuka?
soreto mouhitotu, sono kami ni kaite aru "gun geijyutsu" towa nandeshouka? setumei shitekudasai. 
kami ni kakareteiru anata no namae wa mattaku chris burt towa yomemasen. 

In english it basically asks what is Gun geijyutsu and who is the Japanese teacher and why is Chris Burt is spelled wrong.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

_



Referring to our basic stance as Kehon no kamae. the "no" is because it is a fixed non-moving stance and not a movement. would that mean saying kehon kamae as a description from a fixed stance into a movement such as when doing the happo subaki would be incorrect language? no it wouldn't because t's about the context of how it is used..just like english and every other language in the world. 



The Japanese language has different methods of writing including Kanji, Katakana and Hiragama as the most practiced methods. Just as in America we have different ways of writing and speaking english between city and country so does Japan depending on region and method of writing. 


Some people say the only way to write a menkyo for a Gaijin is in Katakana; some say it has to be Hiragama. It comes down to the writer of the Menkyo, their region and what they decide to use. We in america can choose to write in manuscript, cursive or abbreviations. This is the same situation. However any true student of the budo ways would never question a student about their teacher. That is not proper also. 

Click to expand...

 
I will not reply as I will not allow for more disruption than this has already caused. I will take it as a learning lesson - as far as my master's master's name that is not of your concern. He is retired and wishes to stay at peace.
 Peace,_


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 17, 2009)

> _I will not reply as I will not allow for more disruption than this has already caused. I will take it as a learning lesson - as far as my master's master's name that is not of your concern. He is retired and wishes to stay at peace._


 
:BSmeter:

:bs:


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

STEPS said:


> If you both could take up this matter with each other elsewhere, that would be great. I think it's best we get back on topic.
> 
> Thanks


 

Thanks STEPS - my humble apologies to everyone - it is a family issue.  :asian: Also I just wanted to say - what does think about these schools that put black belts on kids. Personally I don't think it is a good idea. I don't understand how a kid can be a leader when they can't even drive or sign themselves out of school.

Peace,


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## Sukerkin (Mar 17, 2009)

Gentlemen, whilst it is understandable that such matters are bound to be a cause of some debate from time to time, MartialTalk is not the place to do it.  

'Fraudbusting', as it is commonly termed, is not one of the options for conversation and no matter how clear or emotive some issues might be, if they must be discussed then it must be elsewhere.

This is not just a question of politeness or good manners, it is part and parcel of the rules and regulations that everyone agrees to when they sign up.  Please desist.


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## exile (Mar 17, 2009)

Folks, we really do need to get this thread back to the OP topic!

It's also the case that MT has a policy against fraudbusting, which people do need to comply with. Read §1.10.3 particularly carefully. There's only one place on the site for discussion of issues such as the one the current conversation has drifted to... and the Ninjutsu forum ain't it!


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