# Muay Thai w/Gracie Jitsu



## MTisGreat (Jun 19, 2002)

combining the best and brutal striking art in the world with one of the best grapples makes the firghter idestructable.
what do u think?


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## arnisador (Jun 19, 2002)

Indestructable is a strong word, but it makes a nice combination. It is oriented towards "dueling" however--one-on-one fights with no weapons. What about for cases where you have multiple opponents or a knife-wielding opponent?


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## MTisGreat (Jun 19, 2002)

in those multiple opponent cases, in my opinion: depends on the training. true it is more towards deuling, but if u train for multiple opponent situations, it'll probably do the trick. of course with a knife u'll probably get hurt. the guy with the knife is a puss then


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## arnisador (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MTisGreat _
> 
> *the guy with the knife is a puss then *



This is certainly the dueling mentality. That'd be cold comfort if you were stabbed, no?


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 9, 2002)

Renzo (Henzo)  and Royler (Hoyler) Gracie say that BJJ is not structured to deal with multiple attackers, in fact they say that you shouldn't go to the ground at all (that is if you can keep from it), at least in a Mult. Attack situation.  I think that you (MTisGOOD) were the one who said in a multiple attack situation you would kick one in the head and push the other one down while the third punched you in the face.  

First off,  I'm not sure that trying to kick someone in the head is a good idea especially in a Mult Attack situation.  More that likely you'll fall (gravel, water, you slip) or you get taken down, and we've already estab. that BJJ isn't a Mult Attack based combat system.  

Second, your arteries and muscles don't care whether or not the guy with a knife is a "puss", you will still bleed when cut,  Sorry, that's just the way it works.

Third, Nothing makes you invincible.  Invincibility-- a state of being in which nothing can harm you.  The only time you will ever be in a position were someone can no longer hurt you is when you are DEAD.....  and that's because you won't exist anymore, at least not on a physiological level.  

It's just my opinion, take it or leave it.
 :bazook:         :rockets:


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## Kirk (Jul 9, 2002)

I don't need to say anymore in reply to MTisGreat's comment
about mutliple attackers, y'all pretty much covered it.

I'm curious as to why it has to be GRACIE ju jitsu?  Aren't the
Machado's pretty well respected as well?  The UFC has done
it's share of brainwashing impressionable young minds.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 9, 2002)

It's my understanding that the Machados and Gracies are related by marriage (an uncle or something).  The Gracies just got noticed first in the U.S.A., due to the aforementioned UFC contests.  The guys I've seen from the Machado schools are top notch.


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## MTisGreat (Jul 10, 2002)

you guys bring up some pretty good points. ive never been in a knife situation before but ur right.

but i have gotten attacedk by two ppl and it wasnt so hard to take them down. they did get few shots off me.

gracie jits wasnt made for muiltiple attackers, but if 2 are down then 1 is left.

im sorry but i have never heard of mochado!


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## Blindside (Jul 10, 2002)

Hi,

Well, I would recommend practicing for a knife situation before you get that real world experience.  MTisgreat, I recommend you get a bit of experience against weapons, it can only help you.  If only a knife seminar that shows you just how dangerous a knife can be.

Lets see the Machados are Jean-Jeaque, Rigan, Carlos, and I'm drawing a blank on the other two (I want to say John).  They call their approach Machado Jiu-jitsu (yeah original I know) and they basically grew up in the same backyard of the Gracie clan.  (TOUGH backyard! )

When I was doing BJJ I got a chance to attend a seminar by Rigan, oh man was he amazing.  So smooth, and he just plain owned you from any position, very inspiring and intimidating!

Good luck,

Lamont

PS: The Muay Thai/BJJ hybrids have been pretty popular in the MMA arena for several years now.  I knew of one BJJ school that brought in a MT instructor for their standup.


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## MTisGreat (Jul 10, 2002)

is there a specific knife art you know of??


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## Blindside (Jul 11, 2002)

Well most of the knifework that I have seen comes from the Fillipino Martial Arts (escrima, arnis, kali), but there are several other options out there.  There are the WWII combatives groups that use the Fairbain-Sykes fighting knife, the American Bowie groups that use (surprise!) the Bowie knife, the pentjak silat guys, and the japanese tantojutsu (though I think this is really rare in the US).  I think you might try bouncing this over to the knife forum and ask requests there.  Also try www.bladeforums.com in the Tactics & Training side of things.  

Good luck,

Lamont


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## tmanifold (Aug 19, 2002)

As for the "gracie" jujtsu, there are three main branches Carlson Gracie, helio gracie and the Machado's. From my understanding, the differences are minimal.

My problems with BJJ and MT are this. They are sport arts. In a sport fight both are excellent. However, they are not structured for self preservation. Take, for example, the famed Muay Thai leg kick. I don't know about you guys but you can kick me as hard as you want in the leg and it won't slow me down enough that I can't get my thumbs in your eyes. It acts like body shots in boxing; it tires you out over the course of a fight.

With all that said, for NHB style matches BJJ w/ MT is one of the best combo's and in fact that is what every one in NHB does these days. Sometimes replace BJJ with submission wrestling but essentially.....

Tony


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## Zujitsuka (Aug 20, 2002)

Good day everyone.  I think that cross-training in Muay Thai and GJJ is a great combo. 

With all due respect, it is not easy to thumb a trained boxer, or kickboxer in the eye.  They tend to have great footwork and head/upper body movement - and quick hands for parrying and counterpunching.  Hey, that is what they do.

A lot of people don't give enough credit to combat "sports."  Here is a great link discussing the "self-defense v. sports" debate,

http://www.straightblastgym.com/questcuriculum.html#q&a curicullum

Regards,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
http://www.tyroneturner.com


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## Zujitsuka (Aug 20, 2002)

As far as multiple attackers are concerned, I humbly suggest that you run like heck.  Standing to fight when you have the opportunity to escape wouldn't be part of Sun Tzu's battle strategy or King Solomon's wisdom.

I doesn't matter is you're the grand no-holds barred champion of the universe - no style defeats multiple opponents.  Only in Hollywood.

The best way to avoid all potentially violent situations is to be aware of your surroundings at all times.

Make sure that all-out wind sprints is part of your training regimen.  When you have to make a hasty retreat, you don't want to run out of gas or be too slow now, do you?  Lace up those running shoes and get busy 

Regards,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
http://www.tyroneturner.com


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## arnisador (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> 
> *With all due respect, it is not easy to thumb a trained boxer, or kickboxer in the eye.  They tend to have great footwork and head/upper body movement - and quick hands for parrying and counterpunching.  Hey, that is what they do.
> 
> A lot of people don't give enough credit to combat "sports." *



I agree on both points. It's not that easy to thumb a boxer--you have to get your hand in, same as a jab. It isn't as easy as it seems to bite a BJJer--they're moving around and may be breaking your arm while you try. Yes biting and thumbing are good startegies, but they're no more magic than the knee in the groin--you still have to land it.

Here's another link along those lines:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=455&highlight=lethality


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## Zujitsuka (Aug 20, 2002)

Arnisador, that thread had A LOT of great information.  Thanks for sharing!

Sincerely,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
http://www.tyroneturner.com


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## tmanifold (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> 
> *With all due respect, it is not easy to thumb a trained boxer, or kickboxer in the eye.  They tend to have great footwork and head/upper body movement - and quick hands for parrying and counterpunching.  Hey, that is what they do.
> *



Well i didn't mean throw a jab and hit him with my thumb in the eye. I ment grabbing his head and gouging his eyes out his my thumbs. Anyway it was just an example, as to what a determined individual will accept to get what he wants, i.e. the eye gouge, you can replace it with my teeth on his nose or his left nut if it makes it easier to understand.  Also, very few boxers have the footwork to prevent people closing the distance. Those that can are special fighters who can always dictate the fight, most are good enough to limit there time in close. However, in a hair pulling, groin grabbing, biting, kicking drag out fight you only need to be close for a while.

Hey I am not hear to bash sport fighting. I love it, I have done Thai Kickboxing and shootfighting, w/ some BJJ. I still do judo. It is a great way to keep you in fighting shape. But lets be realistic here, MT and BJJ are sport styles designed to fight one on one. That is their greatest area of use. Sport fighting and self preservation have different goals and the two shouldn't be confused, too many people have gotten hurt because they thought their kickboxing made them indestructable.


Tony


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## Zujitsuka (Aug 20, 2002)

Yeah Tony, I basically agree with you.  In regards to most boxers not being able prevent people from closing the distance, that generally isn't a problem for them thanks to hooks and uppercuts.  

Of course, when a Kickboxer starts with leg kicks or a grappler shoots in on them, that changes things.

My concern is that people who don't train in some sort of combat sport are not really conditioning themselves for real fighting.  They don't know for sure if they can ditch out or receive punishment.  Their training, in my humble opinion, is not complete.  With martial sports you can learn what does and does not work against a motivated, uncooperative opponent.

I had a false sense of security until I started playing around with kickboxing types.  Boy did I learn how much work I have to do.

A person can be very determined and be in great shape, but still not "fighting fit" (i.e. timing, distancing, higher pain threshold, muscle memory / reflex, etc.).  The best way to develop these things are through "martial games/sports" like MT, GJJ, Judo, Boxing, etc.  Drills and prearranged ippons go but so far.

It is easier for a martial sportswoman/man to adjust their fighting style for the street, than it is for someone who is not use to rough and tumble contact to adjust theirs.  What I mean is that a boxer can adjust to utilizing a eye poke better than the average Joe can adapt to throwing a crisp jab.

Also, again using boxers as my example, they can throw (Antwun Echols vs. Bernhard Hopkins) headbutt (Evander Holyfeild v. everyone), punch to the groin (Kirk Johnson v. John Ruiz), and even bite (Mike Tyson v. Evander Holyfeild) when necessary  

It is just a natural progression of what they're already skilled in.

In regards to multiple attackers, I say again, RUN!

There will be a lot of pain involved if one chooses to stick around and fight and most people - no matter how deadly their martial art, just aren't combat conditioned enough to withstand the first few blows.

Respectfully,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
http://www.tyroneturner.com


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## tmanifold (Aug 20, 2002)

Zujitsuka
 yes your right, I think we are agreeing just expressing it differently. Basically we are saying that sport fighting techniques are not all that is needed to fight on the street but the hard sparring and fight help create the non-technical aspect of toughness, distnacing, angles, etc. Right?

If so then we do agree and that is that.

Tony


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## Zujitsuka (Aug 21, 2002)

Yes tmanifold, we are in agreement and that is that.

All the best,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
http://www.tyroneturner.com


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## J-kid (Aug 21, 2002)

You have to add to your training to use the sport as you call it to take on muiltble oppents in a fight , alot of martial arts is a fantasy , i mean think a 75 year old master 110lb taking on 5 football players infront of a parking lot.  thats something you wanna believe you are just fooling your self.  That is hollywood , to say kickboxing forms and judo are less of a art then karate is a understatement because you see them in ufc fights all the time.  I never see any karate guys and you say you can just stab your thumb in his eye you think he wont bite you back ,  If you gonna play dirty you think the other guy judo or kickboxer isnt,  i mean its simple enough to say you would kick them in the balls how do you know he won't kick or punch you there, Believe me when i say Judo and kickboxing are not just sports there a martial art and a way of life.


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## tmanifold (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *You have to add to your training to use the sport as you call it to take on muiltble oppents in a fight , alot of martial arts is a fantasy , i mean think a 75 year old master 110lb taking on 5 football players infront of a parking lot.  thats something you wanna believe you are just fooling your self.  That is hollywood , to say kickboxing forms and judo are less of a art then karate is a understatement because you see them in ufc fights all the time.  I never see any karate guys and you say you can just stab your thumb in his eye you think he wont bite you back ,  If you gonna play dirty you think the other guy judo or kickboxer isnt,  i mean its simple enough to say you would kick them in the balls how do you know he won't kick or punch you there, Believe me when i say Judo and kickboxing are not just sports there a martial art and a way of life. *



First of all MT and BJJ are not "sports as I called them" they are sports by definition. Also no one mentioned a 75year old 110 lb man takin on 5 football players, however I know of a fifty odd akido and Kung fu man taking three punks trying to steal his car, one of which was carring a tire iron. That was in victoria not hollywood.  People can defeat multiple opponents. Maybe they just survive but either is a plus. 

Second I don't really understand the next part so I will skip to the important part. Do I think a judo guy or kickboxer might bite back? Maybe, but his first instinct will be to use a standard technique, by that time it may not matter. 

I don't know if you think that judo and kickboxing are esoteric sports but I imagine that many people posting to this board have experience in one or the other. I happen to have experience in both, in fact I do Judo right now and love it. BUT, the point remains, if one trains only in judo or kickboxing then one has not covered all the bases.   

Judo and kickboxing do not in themselves (as practiced today, judo has self defence techniques but they are rarely covered until after shodan if at all) have all the tools to be an effective self preservation system. The attributes developed are VERY useful but the techniques are restricted.

Tony


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