# My Dojo Is Becoming Infected



## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Feb 1, 2009)

By the Christian virus.
Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.

Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.

I'll agree, Christian values can be good, and that in theory, a martial art should drive you to become a better person, but this should be the martial art itself, the discipline you get as you rise through your ranks, not by being told stories out of an old book.

I don't know how to really say this without offending anybody, so I'm sorry if I did, but I just want to know everyone's thoughts on this. Am I taking a patch too seriously? I understand that it's just a cloth, but I feel like it's the beginning of so much more, like eventually he'll say "You MUST attend the church if you plan to continue training." Please, I want to hear everyone's feedback, this is something that has been bothering me to the poitn where I've even considered leaving my dojo.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 1, 2009)

It seems that idea of this patch has caused a issue of conscious for you. I encourage you to talk with you instructor about your concerns. That fact that, for you, the issue is such that you're thinking of leaving your dojo over it, means it's certainly worth that conversation with your sensei.
He may understand your objection & not require it of you. But you'll never know unless you ask.

All my best.


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## exile (Feb 1, 2009)

Shinobi, I'm with you. And I think a lot of us on MT will be. People's beliefs are their own business. But there is, I think, something fundamentally wrong with trying to turn an ongoing school, which people have joined to gain expertise in some craft, skill or body of knowledge, into a ministry in midstream. Sure, if you want to train with like-minded people, there's nothing wrong with indicating that your school is intended to encourage a Christian/wiccan/Gnostic/freethinker/whatever sense of community. But to in effect compel people who are in your school to become vocal advocates of what they might just as soon keep private&#8212;or be dropped from the school&#8212;is, I think very unprofessional. If people don't want to advertise their beliefs, are they to be dismissed from training that they undertook with you in good faith because of your skill as a MAist and instructor? To me, it sounds like your school director is saying to you, it's not enough for you to be fellow believers; you must be, even in a small way, evangelists too, or you're not welcome here.

I suppose he has the right to do that. But your reservations are I think completely justified, and I can't imagine anyone is going to give you a hard time because of them.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Feb 1, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.
> 
> Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.
> ...


 
Hey Shinobi,

How are you?

I'm a Christian and a martial artist too. (Been both for about twenty years or so)

I can understand your dilemma and if possible, I'd like to help you out here. Before I can, however, just so I have a little context, could you please define what you mean when you state that you're a non-practicing Christian?

Best regards,
TCG


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## jks9199 (Feb 1, 2009)

A couple of things...

First, you know that your instructor is a minister; he's going to carry his faith and religious practices into most of his life, if he's at all honest as a minister.  That's just a given.

Second, if he's open about it, it's your choice if you want to stay in that atmosphere.  I get the impression that you're not particularly comfortable with this turn of events.  It's one thing if he snuck it in and advertised it one way, then started pushing religion.  It's different if he's been open the whole time.  Either way, you need to discuss it with him.

Which leads to the third point:  a discussion.  You need to arrange a time to talk to him about this, and where he's going with it.  Are the patches "really required" or "de facto required" because everyone's going to expect you to wear it if it's awarded.  (Think of the flap over US flag lapel pins in Congress not too long ago to see the difference I'm making; the flag pin isn't required on paper -- but President Obama sure took some heat for not wearing one, didn't he?)  I'd suggest you want to do this outside the dojo and outside a church.  Meet him over a cup of coffee, for example, where you can talk.  It's his school; he's got the right to shape the direction and training.  But, it's your schoo, too.  You have a right to know where he's going, and to decide whether you agree with the direction or not.  If you don't -- and he doesn't want to change it -- then it's time for you to look elsewhere.


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## redantstyle (Feb 1, 2009)

training should not be a platform for espousing your personal religious convictions. but, it happens all the time as most schools have some type of 'etiquette' or 'code of conduct, which stems from the instructor's personal belief system. and often, that is quite acceptable to the students, as that is part of the reason they are there. they want some cosomological modeling. part of the lure of the arts is that they have an attendant philosophy. 

but making people display badges is going a bit too far, imo. 

what you said here is pretty much the bottom line, 




> but I am NOT looking for a church.


 

regards.


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## searcher (Feb 1, 2009)

I am a 100% hardcore fundementalist Christain, but I don't think he should be forcing anything off on his class.

Our faith dictates that you should not force your faith off on others.   People have to come on their own.

Voice your opposition and be prepared to leave.


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## stickarts (Feb 1, 2009)

I agree with the othes about discussion with your instructor. After that, only you can decide if you feel comfortable enough in this environment to keep training and / or if you feel you go along with what's happening and you feel in alignment with it.


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## Guardian (Feb 1, 2009)

All good advice, talk with him and let him know of your feelings.  If he insist that you wear the patch(s), then you have a choice to make.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Feb 1, 2009)

TigerCraneGuy said:


> Hey Shinobi,
> 
> How are you?
> 
> ...



Non-practicing Christian. I USED to be a evangelist like him, even attended his church, then I started to hear his views on things, started to view the world through my own eyes and decided that the church just isn't where I want to be. The people there are hypocritical, trying to present themselves as perfect or as "best they can" around each other, then lying and cheating to everyone around them. I believe in God, but I don't go to congregations.


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## arnisador (Feb 1, 2009)

I teach mathematics for a living. I don't go into class and speak about my religious, political, etc., beliefs. The main reason is that I don't want any student to feel as you now do and hence possibly have their learning (or even their belief that they can approach me in my office) affected. There's a lot to be said for keeping things separate.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 1, 2009)

it is a business, if you dont like the service you are getting, fire the guy and move on.

if he loses enough business, he will figure out that he needs to zip it


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 1, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.



Shinobe,

I agree that you should talk to your Sensei. Requiring members to wear some sort of religious insignia is isolating. It sends a negative message to believers of other faiths and non-believers. It may well be off-putting even to many of your Christian members -- whether they are practicing or not.

As a Christian minister, your Sensei can lead by example. I would say the patch is over the line. It's his dojo, and he may choose to enforce the rule.

If you can't come to an agreement, you have the choice to vote with your feet.


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## terryl965 (Feb 1, 2009)

Shinobi all I can add is this, you know he is a Christian Minister and how he believes so is the training worth the little bit of aggrevation to you. If so sit down and talk about if not let him know your intention about leaving and go on from there. Best of luck to you.


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 1, 2009)

Shinobe,

I'm Catholic, and well, unless it's a Catholic Church ran martial arts class I don't see why anyone expect you to wear any religious patch. Same goes for any religious organization. If it's ran by them, well it's their game. If not....

In fact, I don't wear ANY patch on my formal Gi. Nope. And my teacher does not mind at all.

So yes, have a talk about it before you do something drastic.

Deaf


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you for all your great comments guys. The patch itself isn't the thing I'm against, but it's what it represents. If he starts with the patch he may eventually get to the point where we're IDENTIFIED as army of the cross, and unless you are initiated and go to his services, you can't train. That's my biggest fear.


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## arnisador (Feb 1, 2009)

I've always been surprised how often martial arts are offered in a church, incidentally! It's nice of them to make these facilities available.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Feb 1, 2009)

This martial art isn't offered in a church, the church came AFTER the art, and now they're being blended into some mutant freak creature.


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## jarrod (Feb 1, 2009)

this has given me an idea...i might look up the local chapter of the church of satan & see if they are interested in starting an mma program.  i mean as long as we're melding MA with religion & all.  what to call it though? 

off topic, sorry.  anyway, i agree with what virtually everyone else here has already advised.

jf


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## Brian King (Feb 1, 2009)

_*Shinobi Teikiatsu wrote:*_



> I don't know how to really say this without offending anybody


 
I can help you there. If you take a phrase or sentence and change one word for another it can often help you decide if you are being offensive or not. 
Take the opening of your thread for instance. 
My Dojo is Becoming Infected By the Christian virus. Now if you were to substitute Christian virus by say Jewish virus do you think it would be considered offensive? How about By the black virus or the dreaded BJJ or TKD or Muslim virus? 




> Please, I want to hear everyone's feedback


 
You couched your post in terms that would solicit a certain and expected response from some and would almost guarantee the lack of thoughtful participation from others and you got the results you were looking for congratulations. 

Others had said and I agree with the thought that you should talk with your instructor about your feelings. Before you do I would strongly suggest you sit somewhere quiet and figure out what exactly those feelings and fears are and why they are affecting you to the degree that they are. I would also suggest you get your feelings on your relationship with your instructor into the open so that you better understand them before you try to talk to him. 



> _Christian virus_
> _not by being told stories out of an old book_
> _I USED to be a evangelist like him_
> _The people there are hypocritical, trying to present themselves as perfect or as "best they can" around each other, then lying and cheating to everyone around them._
> ...


 
Out of the abundance of your words your heart speaks sir and what I am hearing is you do not like your instructor (putting it mildly) and maybe even despise him. You do not like his church or his ministries. You said that most of your Dojo mates go to his church then you said that the people of the church are hypocritical lying cheats, telling me that you do not respect or like your Dojo mates very much. You describe the Bible an old book showing a lack of interest or respect for something that the others in you Dojo seem to care about. 

You posted FOUR times in this thread and had NOT ONE thing positive to say about your school. I wonder why you would want to stay patch or no patch. If you are seeking justification for leaving you got it. If you are seeking evidence to point out the flaws of a man you got that too I suppose. If you are trying to blacken a program, congratulations you are well on the way. 

I will take you at your word that you are really asking for honest feedback. A school owner has the absolute right to take the school in any direction that they wish. The students and the perspective students have the right to say no thanks and go across the street to the Dojo on the other corner. I do think that your taking your concerns to him would be the honorable thing to do. I think that if you are able having an honest forthright discussion with him would be greatly beneficial to the both of you, but to be honest judging by the words and tone you set in this thread I think that would be difficult to do. 

Good luck in your training at whatever school you end up in.
Regards
Brian King


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 1, 2009)

Its one thing to encourage students to look to a higher power and believe in god in some way.  For faith, strength and encouragement however to wear a patch as you have described I wouldn't do it.  Sounds to cultish to me.  Even Shoshin Nagamine who was a Zen Priest also did not include anything zen in his patch.  But he did in his teachings.


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## MJS (Feb 1, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.
> 
> Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.
> ...


 
I would suggest privately discussing these issues/concerns with your teacher.  Now, I don't have any issues with a religion that someone may choose to practice.  However, what I don't like, is when people try to force their religion/beliefs on me.  Like I said, I have no issues with respecting whatever someone wants to believe in, but I feel that to push it on someone...that isn't right.  

As far as the patch goes...well, IMO, thats pushing something on someone, and that is where I'd have to draw the line.  If it means leaving the school, then so be it.


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## Brian King (Feb 1, 2009)

*Jarrod posted*



> &#8220;this has given me an idea...i might look up the local chapter of the church of satan & see if they are interested in starting an mma program. i mean as long as we're melding MA with religion & all&#8221;


 

If we are honest martial arts have always been heavily influenced by religion and politics. Today is no different than yesterday and likely will be no different than tomorrow. Take MMA for instance. The politics have demanded changes in the rules and those changes have changed the way and method that practitioners train and compete in their sport and art. We can look at Shinto&#8217;s influences of many of the Japanese martial arts, Muslim beliefs and their influences with the Persian wrestling and stick arts, Paganism and its influences over many of the African and Indonesian arts, Buddhist and Hindu thoughts and beliefs and their influences with in many of the arts of India and South East Asia. I have a hard time even thinking of a religion that has not had an affect on martial studies and those that practice them. I have a hard time thinking of an art that was not influenced by the politics of their local. It is human nature I guess.

Regards
Brian King


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## jarrod (Feb 2, 2009)

Brian said:


> *Jarrod posted*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
right you are sir, but it is one thing to be influenced by & another to consiously shape a martial art or a school around a set of beliefs.  also the examples you site involve indigenous martial arts being influenced by indigenous beliefs at their founding.  attaching christianity to an eastern martial art seems a bit silly to me; it's kind of like if a kung fu school opened in japan & then strongly identified itself with shinto.  one has little or nothing to do with the other.  

i was being a smartass when i suggested a church of satan mma team, but at least the CoS's focus on ego-gratification would be in sync with competing in a high profile combat sport.  :lol:  learning to punch & kick people really has very little to do with christianity.  i'm not saying you can't be a christian & a martial artist, but the two have very little to do with each other.

jf


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## TigerCraneGuy (Feb 2, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> Non-practicing Christian. I USED to be a evangelist like him, even attended his church, then I started to hear his views on things, started to view the world through my own eyes and decided that the church just isn't where I want to be. The people there are hypocritical, trying to present themselves as perfect or as "best they can" around each other, then lying and cheating to everyone around them. I believe in God, but I don't go to congregations.


 
Thanks for providing said context, mate.

FWIW, on the MA side of things, here's my 2 cents.

1) Like most here, I concur that you should speak to your instructor about this in private.  If you cannot reconcile your differences, then maybe it's time to part ways. 

2) As a professing and practicing Christian, I believe that faith in the God of the Bible and the ensuing acceptance of Christ's sovereignty must be made of one's free will, or else, it is null and void, profiting absolutely no one.

3) I agree with Brian that you need to spend some 'alone' time working out the root cause of your discomfort. After all, if you are a Christian, why the avoidance of professing to be one? Not trying to be snide here; just asking a sincere question.

As for giving up on Church in general, well... just bear in mind that there are no perfect churches. Never have been; never will be. Even in the days of the Apostles, there were problems. Where there are humans interacting on a large or small scale, there always will be problems.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Best regards,
TCG


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## Brian King (Feb 2, 2009)

*Jarrod posted*



> &#8220;right you are sir, but it is one thing to be influenced by & another to consiously shape a martial art or a school around a set of beliefs.&#8221;


 
That is true sir.




> &#8220;learning to punch & kick people really has very little to do with christianity. i'm not saying you can't be a christian & a martial artist, but the two have very little to do with each other.&#8221;


 
That is certainly one opinion and a very popular one. I disagree and find very much in common between some serious martial practices and attributes and some serious Christian practices and attributes. My opinion is formed by both my experiences in various non-Eastern martial arts and serious research into my Christian faith. 




> &#8220;attaching christianity to an eastern martial art seems a bit silly to me&#8221;


 
To be honest Jarrod many of the practices of eastern martial arts seem silly to me. Those uniforms and the obsession with belts rank and lineage, all the bowing and clapping and barking of commands that some arts thrive on, the rigorous following of protocols and worship of instructors and such. It does seem a little odd to me. 

I am no expert on Asian martial arts but didn&#8217;t Karate come from Okinawa? Didn&#8217;t Chinese systems travel to Okinawa? Did certain martial knowledge travel from India to China? If they did indeed travel these routes it seems natural to me that the systems once transplanted would take on the religious and political beliefs of the area, either by a merging of ideas to form new ideas and beliefs or the complete take over of beliefs and philosophies by those beliefs native to the area. I do think that people that learn martial arts will &#8220;attach&#8221; their beliefs to the system that they are learning. It is natural that people relate the lessons learned in one discipline to lessons learned in the other no matter what the discipline. I have heard and in fact read many threads here on MT of musicians relating their martial practice to their music and their music to their martial practices, dancers do the same and various sports experiences crisscross between disciplines. Many martial artists are not bothered by this cross pollination of ideas until religion comes into it and then certain religions are exempt from criticism while others are held to extreme criticism in my opinion. This is not something in my opinion to be bothered by or fought against but best just observed and understood. 

I have not really given this issue much thought so I thank you Jarrod for the chance to think aloud about it.


I guess it comes down to honesty. I do not think there is much danger to somebody "attaching" or not attaching Christian faith to Easter arts as long as they are honest about what they are doing. I think that there is no danger to keeping or not keeping Eastern and other Religious beliefs found with-in those arts as long as the instructors are honest and open about it. I think that the students should be aware of what they are learning and practicing and do so willingly if they chose to do so or chose to not do so

Some like Fords and some like BMW's, it is all good I guess

Again thanks for provoking some thoughts.
Regards
Brian King 

Nice post TigerCraneGuy. 
Off topic*
Welcome to Martial Talk sir. I look forward to reading more of your opinions.


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## Carol (Feb 2, 2009)

Personally I think the patch is overall, a good idea.  I'll explain.

I do not believe that martial arts and religion absolutely must be separated.  I have worked out with a couple of folks that are devout Christians, that express their faith not through scripture or biblical analogies but in the way they treat others on the mat and in the motivations they have to teach.

I have heard of others folks (ie: Karate for Christ) that have a different approach, they actively blend their training and their faith, and set everyone's expectations for what they do.  I have a lot of respect for that...it manages everyone's expectations.

In this case, its the incrementalism that bothers me.   I'd rather see an instructor that was clearer about their intentions from the beginning so the students can decide whether or not that is their cup of tea.


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## Brian King (Feb 2, 2009)

Nice post Carol Kaur. Interesting point of view thanks for taking the time to provide it. 

*Carol Kaur wrote:*



> I'd rather see an instructor that was clearer about their intentions from the beginning so the students can decide whether or not that is their cup of tea. 


 
I agree that would be best. That said I can certainly understand the journey once started going in directions that one did not expect. This is true for both religious journeys and martial journeys. Not many here are still practicing the first martial art that they were exposed to I would think. Having an end goal makes the journeys predictable and stablebut sometimes boring. I myself value those that are willing to step out and grow no matter the mistakes, the willingness to make changes as they travel. It might mean losing some things to gain others. That is life. I have trained with some great guys but their journey differed from mine even while we were on the same path. We still train now and then but we must travel our own paths and sometimes at least with my own path it curves, switchbacks and traverses valleys and peaks. I have an idea of where I want to go and how to get there but honestly I still have to take a step at a time and be willing to backtrack and start over if needed. Students belonging to small schools should understand that the path will change and if that bothers them then perhaps a large well organized organization might be more stable and comfortable for them.

Gah it is late and I ramble. My apologies that to any that took the time to read this.

Thanks agian for your post Carol. It has given me something to think about. 

Regards
Brian King


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## Cirdan (Feb 2, 2009)

While I am not totally against religion being practiced in the dojo, I`ve always liked to have the option of not taking part in this. The formal greeting at a kenjutsu school I trained at had a religious meaning, however we always had the option of using another simple non-religious greeting. Putting it in the patch is a bad idea if wearing it is mandatory.


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## jarrod (Feb 2, 2009)

Brian said:


> *Jarrod posted*
> 
> 
> That is true sir.
> ...


 

always a pleasure to discuss the significance of religion with someone who can keep a level head about it :asian:

you are right; the generally accepted theory of asian martial arts transmission is india->china->okinawa->japan.  interestingly this is the same pattern that religious transmission (specifically buddhism) followed.  

in the case of both religion & MA, the end product ended up significantly different from the origianal.  meaning the most common forms of buddhism practiced in japan differ greatly from theravada buddhism, just as japanese karate is much different from traditional indian martial arts.  each was a natural process of cultural assimilation.  this is a perfect example of what you were talking about as far as martial artists attaching their own beliefs to their system.  the difference is that what the OP's instructor is doing is consciously making this attachment, & making it for his students as well.  typically, this cross-pollination is either a natural result of cultural assimilation (meaning that for instance any japanese ideologies were only attached to MA as the arts themselves became "japanese").  otherwise, it is an individual choice & i think that to force your students to take on your ideologies is to remove a significant portion of the process of character development through martial arts training.  

i agree with carol though; it is the gradual way that religion is being introduced that seems almost underhanded.  if people enter into a martial arts organization knowing full well that it has a religious agenda, that is just fine.  i would be irritated to have any ideology slipped in with my training if i hadn't signed on for it in the first place.  

as an aside, i also agree with you about many asian MA customs being silly in & of themselves.  for instance, i was looking at an iaido school.  the website mentioned that if a student show up late to class, he was to bow to the flag, then kneel on the floor &bow to instructor.  he was to remain there until the instructor acknowledged him.

are you kidding?  that is fine in a culture that bows regularly & has a more structured social heirarchy than ours does, but to try & impose that particular custom on westerners just seems...well, it would be enough to prevent me from training there, anyway.  i'm glad to have a coach who is happy with a simple "sorry i'm late!".  

as you said though, to each his own.  if someone wants to mix religion & MA that is fine with me.  i think it's pretty clear the OP doesn't want to however.

jf


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## Ironcrane (Feb 2, 2009)

I must say that hearing, or seeing "Army of the Cross." on something makes all the alarms go off in my head. After hearing about the Army of Jesus, and seeing a video of them on their genocidal beliefs.....I couldn't believe what I was hearing!
I don't have a problem with someone mixing their religion, with their Martial Arts, since eventually all aspects of a persons life will mix together into one thing, I'd ask for something that has a less military sounding name.
I know this doesn't quite answer your question, but this is the best I can think of.


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## Tez3 (Feb 2, 2009)

On the side issue of MMA and religion.
http://www.southwarknews.co.uk/home/mma-cagerage/00,news,6757,8153,00.htm

Religion and 'outside' activities can make uneasy companions if only a few people are fervent and others not. 
As others have said the only thing you can do is talk to the instructor.
The title of the thread is perhaps a bit much, I think just explaining the problem may have been enough, likening Christianity to a virus is unhelpful as well as probably insulting a lot of different Christians, I think what you are being overcome with is an excess of zeal which is never good in any religion tbh.


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## jarrod (Feb 2, 2009)

i've got it.  "army of the damned" will be satan's mma team.

:headbangin:

i'm very excited to move this project forward.  

hail satan.

jf


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## Tez3 (Feb 2, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i've got it. "army of the damned" will be satan's mma team.
> 
> :headbangin:
> 
> ...


 
Oh good grief! :angel:


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## Sylo (Feb 2, 2009)

I think patches in general are somewhat cheesy.

my school has american flag/korean patch and used to have a school patch.. but all 3 were optional. I have one gi with all the patches, and one with none. I wear the non patched gi more than the other. My dad is a minister, so I have a large church/religious background. I believe in "god" but I also question things. So I don't just believe everything I read. I need to research it and ask questions. Sometimes this irks my dad who thinks I should just believe without question.

I would feel odd if my instructor was forcing me to wear something based on what "he" believes in. I'd talk to him first, and if he made a big deal about it.. thats my cue to find a new school.


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## Hagakure (Feb 2, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> training should not be a platform for espousing your personal religious convictions. but, it happens all the time as most schools have some type of 'etiquette' or 'code of conduct, which stems from the instructor's personal belief system. and often, that is quite acceptable to the students, as that is part of the reason they are there. they want some cosomological modeling. part of the lure of the arts is that they have an attendant philosophy.
> 
> but making people display badges is going a bit too far, imo.
> 
> ...


 
I agree. My Wing Chun sifu is a devout and practising Muslim, and never once mentions it in class. He has the shaved head and beard, and I've spoken to him about it "outside" of class, but as for in class? Nah, he never, ever mentions it. Peoples personal views, instructors or otherwise should be left at the dojo/jang door. IMHO. What you guys discuss/participate in outside of class is your own business, bringing it into class, when you're not paying to be ministered to, is taking advantage. 

Hagakure.


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## MJS (Feb 2, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Personally I think the patch is overall, a good idea. I'll explain.
> 
> I do not believe that martial arts and religion absolutely must be separated. I have worked out with a couple of folks that are devout Christians, that express their faith not through scripture or biblical analogies but in the way they treat others on the mat and in the motivations they have to teach.
> 
> ...


 
Great post, however, I disagree with a few things.  I have to wonder, but it seems to me that the OPs instructor is just now making them wear these patches.  Seems to me that while the teacher was a devote Christian all along, only now he is really pushing this onto his classes.  The OP clearly states that his inst. is commanding the students to wear these patches.  Sorry, but that is not right.  He is forcing someone to do something that they may not be confortable with.  

I think its important to find out whether or not being involved in the teachers religion was a pre-req upon initially joining the school.  Now we can look at this 2 ways.  1) It could be told to any new students that religion, the religion of the head inst. will be forced upon everyone or 2) That you could still train at the school, but if you do not feel comfortable with the religion, thats fine and you don't have to partake in any of it. ie: wearing a patch, following the beliefs, etc.  

For the record, I'm not anti God nor am I anti religion.  I was born and raised Catholic by my family.  However, we do not force our religion or beliefs upon anyone.  Hey, I've been approached on the street by people preaching and handing out info.  I've had people come knocking on my door.  I always respectfully decline and even with my attempts to walk away, these people feel it necessary to continue to preach, instead of respecting my wishes to leave me alone.  I recall one time a while ago at my Grandparents house.  2 people came to the door, and despite the dog going crazy and her repeated attempts to tell them that she wasn't interested, they continued to stay, only leaving after she stated that if they did not leave, she would call the police and have them arrested for trespassing on her property.  Call it mean if you want, but when someone tells you that they're not interested, respect that.


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## MJS (Feb 2, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> training should not be a platform for espousing your personal religious convictions. but, it happens all the time as most schools have some type of 'etiquette' or 'code of conduct, which stems from the instructor's personal belief system. and often, that is quite acceptable to the students, as that is part of the reason they are there. they want some cosomological modeling. part of the lure of the arts is that they have an attendant philosophy.
> 
> but making people display badges is going a bit too far, imo.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, I disagree.  I have been training for over 20+ years now, and I have never had any religion pushed on me.  I go to the dojo to train the Martial Arts, not to be preached to.  If I want that, I go to church.  The code of conduct that I've usually seen is to be respectful to your fellow students, your family, your inst., to be the best person you can, etc.  Nothing religious was contained in that code at any of the schools I've been a member of.

I do agree with your last part though...forcing them to wear that patch isn't right.


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## Tez3 (Feb 2, 2009)

MJS said:


> Sorry, I disagree. I have been training for over 20+ years now, and I have never had any religion pushed on me. I go to the dojo to train the Martial Arts, not to be preached to. If I want that, I go to church. The code of conduct that I've usually seen is to be respectful to your fellow students, your family, your inst., to be the best person you can, etc. Nothing religious was contained in that code at any of the schools I've been a member of.
> 
> I do agree with your last part though...forcing them to wear that patch isn't right.


 

I agree totally with you, I think if people want a Dojo that also administers to their religious needs they will join one, it shouldn't be religion by stealth! When you join a dojo that is non religious it shouldn't turn into a branch of preachers-r-us.

Some types however are very persistant in besieging you with their religion, not so long ago we had to get the police to clear a group of evangelical Christians away from the gates of a Jewish primary school (age 4-11) so the children could leave, they were very full on, handing out leaflets, forcing them into the hands of the children and preaching on the pavement outside the school gate making it impossible for parents, children and teachers to get in without difficulty. Incidentally while it's a Jewish school, some of the pupils are Christian and Muslim.


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2009)

All this talk about religion is killing me, can;t we all just agree with this statement. Religion belongs in the church and not on the workout floor.


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## Kreth (Feb 2, 2009)

This seems like a no-brainer to me. If you're not comfortable with the training environment, find another dojo... :idunno:


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm sorry if I made people feel like I don't respect anybody in my dojo. I respect my teacher and my fellow practitioners. But as martial artists. I respect them as my comrades in the dojo, but I would not like to catch a drink with them after training. I'm not saying I CAN'T hang out with someone who has different beliefs than I do, there's a girl who trains there who believes like them but isn't quite as fevrent about it. She and I are friends outside of the dojo BECAUSE we believe so differently. The rest of them, however, seem compelled to try and convert me to their beliefs, even when I say that I'm not interested.

My instructor is a good man and a great martial artist, and he did flat out tell me that he also directed a church alongside the dojo, so some Christian overtone was expected, and it was tolerable before. He gave us some stories and examples from the Bible that were always relevent, but never really TOO deep, if you understand what I'm saying.

Now, however, he seems adament about merging the church and the dojo, since most of those who train go to his dojo anyways. This would work fine if it weren't for the other people that DIDN'T go to the church, and didn't sign up to be in a martial art that was led by a church.

I do intend to talk to him, and I'm glad to see all the people that have opinions on this subject.

On the matter of Satanist MMA...what?


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## astrobiologist (Feb 2, 2009)

I have been impressed by reading this thread.  I agree that the best route here is to talk to your instructor, but, honestly, it kind of sounds like you've already made up your mind about the situation.  Not just the patch situation, but everything surrounding it, too.  You seem troubled enough to leave.  Honestly, I wouldn't blame you.  It's your choice where you train and what you believe, no one else's.  If someone is trying to impose a belief system on you, then you have every right to stand up and say no.  I hope your instructor is understanding and will see why this bothers you.  He may even realize through this that he needs to be more forthcoming about his intent to make his martial arts school religiously affiliated.


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## arnisador (Feb 2, 2009)

Kreth said:


> This seems like a no-brainer to me. If you're not comfortable with the training environment, find another dojo...



Well, there's nothing wrong with approaching the instructor, who may not appreciate that not all of his changes are being greeted enthusiastically. He may have convinced himself that everyone there shares his values. If you always leave without ever discussing matters you do a disservice to both parties. Trying to make a change is good...persisting after the instructor says No isn't.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 2, 2009)

Despite what other people have been saying, I don't believe this is a clear cut issue, for anyone involved. And, in fact, I'm going to actually support the instructor. Bear with me. 

First, my background:
I run a martial arts school and am a christian, and have been a chaplain assistant in the Army for 8 years. my position in the military has exposed me to the whole gamut of religious beliefs, and a number of big name evangelists, including the writer of _The Purpose Driven Life, _Rick Warren. I also trained in Kung Fu San Soo under Paul Schroeder, an 8th degree black belt and a youth pastor. 

I personally do not incorporate Christianity into my martial arts program, and never will, because I believe martial arts is a universal outlet and for me to specialize, I would have to neglect many others who have a sincere desire to train. Sifu Schroeder was of the same opinion.

However, were I to put myself in the instructor/evangelist's shoes, I'd probably do the same thing, eventually. My guess is this is something that has been weighing on his heart for a very long time. As an Evangelist, your whole life's purpose is to win as many souls for Christ as you can, through any means you can. The mainstream philosohpy behind evangelism is that any endeavor you take that is not geared towards winning souls is time wasted.

Please understand that I don't believe this. But the instructor in question does, if I'm not off my guess. And if I'm on, then it was only a matter of time before this happened. The instructor is being true to himself. Based on his beliefs, this would be a right action. 

Unfortunately, this is an action that will probably cost him a good number of students. My guess is that many of his people are *not* Christians, and will probably be offended and leave. But I'm betting the instructor didn't come to this decision lightly, and probably not abandon his decision. 

Frankly, more power to him. Sometimes, in following your ideals, you come at odds with others, and you have to choose between people and your ideal. If someone believes strongly enough in the ideal, the ideal will win out every time.

What sucks, however is that in him following his ideals, he will likely orphan a lot of students. On the plus side, America has no shortage of martial arts schools. If someone is interested in training, but does not want to have religion pushed down their throats there is plenty of opportunity to train elsewhere (*my* dojo for instance!)

This issue is a difficult one for all parties involved. Shinobi, I hope things work out well; for you, your instructor, and your fellow students as well.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Feb 2, 2009)

Yeah, I see what you're trying to say. Sad part is, though, There are a good 30 people that train under him, and only seven, maybe ten of us, don't believe the way he does.


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 2, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> Yeah, I see what you're trying to say. Sad part is, though, There are a good 30 people that train under him, and only seven, maybe ten of us, don't believe the way he does.



It is sad, very alienating.


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## Uchinanchu (Feb 2, 2009)

An interesting dilema, and, I might add, a very odd coincidence.  I have been having a discussion with with a Christian friend of mine on whether or not it is detrimental to for a Christian to be practicing karate (and most other eastern martial arts) due to the supposed fact that most, if not all, have deep connections to Eastern religions/philosophies such as Zen Buddhism, Shinto, Confusainism etc...

I'm currently working on a paper that shows that historically, the Japanese & Okinawan arts are NOT synonymus with Zen Buddhism, but in fact, were imbedded with it.  If anyone is interested in reading it, I'll be more than happy to post it here when it is complete.


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## exile (Feb 2, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> An interesting dilema, and, I might add, a very odd coincidence.  I have been having a discussion with with a Christian friend of mine on whether or not it is detrimental to for a Christian to be practicing karate (and most other eastern martial arts) due to the supposed fact that most, if not all, have deep connections to Eastern religions/philosophies such as Zen Buddhism, Shinto, Confusainism etc...
> 
> I'm currently working on a paper that shows that historically, the Japanese & Okinawan arts are NOT synonymus with Zen Buddhism, but in fact, were imbedded with it.  If anyone is interested in reading it, I'll be more than happy to post it here when it is complete.



I'd certainly be interested in seeing what you've written!

I don't, myself, see any more inherent religious content to fighting skills than to downhill skiing/racing skills. A martial art is, at base, a set of abilities which involve knowledge of how one is likely to be attacked, what kinds of counters to the repertoire of such attacks are likely to be successful, and how to use practical knowledge of the skeletal/anatomical structure of the body to incapacitate an attacker. Mental attitudes and disciplines are important to the application of such skills&#8212;_exactly_ as they are when racing down a steep, icy, deeply rutted slalom course. Having done the latter enough times, I can attest that survival is just as much on your mind as it is in a street fight, and cool detachment and loss of ego-sense are critical components of a successful run. But there is absolutely nothing in that mind set which has religious content. In just the same way, there are Christian, Jewish, Islamic and probably Zoroastrian yoga exponents, none of whom feel that practicing yoga entails accepting one or another variety of Hinduism, any more than adherents of the Pilates training method feel themselves obliged to follow the personal religious creed of Joseph Pilates.


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## chinto (Feb 2, 2009)

it is inappropriate to be preaching any religion as part of MA... martial arts is about combat, it is about fighting, defending yourself and even taking a life if you have to to defend yourself and or others.   IT IS NOT about RELIGION!


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 2, 2009)

chinto said:


> it is inappropriate to be preaching any religion as part of MA... martial arts is about combat, it is about fighting, defending yourself and even taking a life if you have to to defend yourself and or others.   IT IS NOT about RELIGION!



See, what you're saying does not bear the weight of history. The hindu warrior class would disagree with you as would the Shaolin monks and the Knights Templar (or even the Rosicurians). The Yamabushi of Japan would have disagreed as well.

This is the problem with this discussion. People HAVE used MA as a vehicle for religion and quite effectively. There's a Christian Kempo group that does this as well, and there's also the CMAA (Christian Martial Artists Association). _Tai Chi Chuan_ and other martial arts are expressions of Taoism

But there are also people for whom MA didn't have any religious undertones or even _spiritual _ones. The issue is not cut and dry. _Your_ martial arts are not about religion. _Other_ martial arts are the very expression thereof. 

Heck, Hatsuumi just got his organization recognized as a bonafide religion.

I should warn you that you're falling prey to the fallacy of egocentrism. You have a particular take on the purpose of Martial Arts, and assume that that is true universally. Other people, historically, and even now, share a very different view. Who is right? That depends on perception.

As a side note, even your handle is a play on the word _shinto_, a polytheistic and animistic religion.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> Yeah, I see what you're trying to say. Sad part is, though, There are a good 30 people that train under him, and only seven, maybe ten of us, don't believe the way he does.




Yeah, that's a tough part. The situation sucks, frankly. I don't think I see a perfect answer to it.


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## Uchinanchu (Feb 3, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> See, what you're saying does not bear the weight of history. The hindu warrior class would disagree with you as would the Shaolin monks and the Knights Templar (or even the Rosicurians). The Yamabushi of Japan would have disagreed as well.
> 
> This is the problem with this discussion. People HAVE used MA as a vehicle for religion and quite effectively. There's a Christian Kempo group that does this as well, and there's also the CMAA (Christian Martial Artists Association). _Tai Chi Chuan_ and other martial arts are expressions of Taoism
> 
> ...


 

Very well put!  I could not have said that much better myself.  It is very true that many cultures have used their indiginous fighting styles as a medium for propagating their religious/philosophical beliefs.
Many older cultures such as the Chinese and Japanese even have many everyday social customs that have underlying religious meaning, though many, if not most people (within their respective countries) do not even realize it.  
One such custom in Japan would be the act of removing ones shoes before entering a house/business.  This simple act signified the belief that the 'outside world' was impure or dirty.  Someones house/abode was considered to be an inner sanctum, if you will, and one did not wish to defile it with the impurities of the outside world.


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## exile (Feb 3, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> As a side note, even your handle is a play on the word _shinto_, a polytheistic and animistic religion.



?? How do you make that out, Josh? _Chinto_ is the name of a kata created by Bushi Matsumura, taken from the name of the Chinese sailor whose fighting style Matsumura was impressed by and whose technical content he recorded by means of that kata. It has no connection with 'Shinto'/Shintoism whatsoever.

And on another note: whether or not people use MAs as vehicles for their religion, the fact is that _this school was presented to the OPer as a MA school at the beginning, not as a ministry_. Had it been presented as a ministry, it's likely that the OPer would have gone elsewhere. What's been sprung on him is that the school is now _to be_ a ministrythat's fairly evident, I think, to the people thereputting the OPer in the position of either having to discontinue his training there or to adopt behaviors which go against his conscience. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether MAs can incorporate religious ideals or not; what it has to do with is the fact that the OPer's instructor is unilaterally changing the rules of the game in the middle.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> I'm sorry if I made people feel like I don't respect anybody in my dojo. I respect my teacher and my fellow practitioners. But as martial artists.


Well, then why did you call your dojo a McDojo?  That is actually more disrespectful than the rest of it because calling a martial arts school a McDojo on the internet has serious implications.  McDojo is a pejorative and it implies inferior or worse training, price gouging, and five year old black belts.

If your dojo does not fall into this category, then calling it a McDojo on the internet incredibly disrespectful.  

I am a Christian of Catholic persuasion, but I wasn't offended by the 'virus' remark.  I can understand why you might have that reaction given what you describe below.



Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> I respect them as my comrades in the dojo, but I would not like to catch a drink with them after training. I'm not saying I CAN'T hang out with someone who has different beliefs than I do, there's a girl who trains there who believes like them but isn't quite as fevrent about it. She and I are friends outside of the dojo BECAUSE we believe so differently. The rest of them, however, seem compelled to try and convert me to their beliefs, even when I say that I'm not interested.


It is one thing to share one's faith, but another to push it on people.  I can understand why conversion efforts would turn you off.  This would also explain why you refer to it as the "Christian virus."  



Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> My instructor is a good man and a great martial artist, and he did flat out tell me that he also directed a church alongside the dojo, so some Christian overtone was expected, and it was tolerable before. He gave us some stories and examples from the Bible that were always relevent, but never really TOO deep, if you understand what I'm saying.
> 
> Now, however, he seems adament about merging the church and the dojo, since most of those who train go to his dojo anyways. This would work fine if it weren't for the other people that DIDN'T go to the church, and didn't sign up to be in a martial art that was led by a church.


Most likely, this has been a decision that has been long coming and took him a lot of time to arrive at.  But personally, unless the dojo started out that way, I think he'd actually do better to keep it separate from his church.  From an evangelistic standpoint, if your only members are already in your church, you accomplish nothing because all of the members are already evangelized.  People tend to respect religious folks more when they don't impress their beliefs on others.  By making the school into a religious facility, it will actually drive away some of the people he may hope to reach.

Also, when religion becomes the focal point, any faults or missteps he or his Evangelical students make will be examined under the microscope by those who do not share their beliefs.  This opens him up to "Some Christian he/she is, doing something like that..." or "Christians are all fakes..." or whatever comments.

Personally, I think that he should make this particular patch an option for church _members_ and leave it be for the rest of his class.  

Best wishes,

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

exile said:


> ?? whether or not people use MAs as vehicles for their religion, the fact is that _this school was presented to the OPer as a MA school at the beginning, not as a ministry_. Had it been presented as a ministry, it's likely that the OPer would have gone elsewhere. What's been sprung on him is that the school is now _to be_ a ministrythat's fairly evident, I think, to the people thereputting the OPer in the position of either having to discontinue his training there or to adopt behaviors which go against his conscience. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether MAs can incorporate religious ideals or not; what it has to do with is the fact that the OPer's instructor is unilaterally changing the rules of the game in the middle.


And this is the heart of the problem.

Daniel


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## Carol (Feb 3, 2009)

I agree its an issue, and its not fair to Shinobi and his classmates that do not necessarily want their training and their evangelism in the same place.  I wouldn't care for it either, for that matter.

At the same time, there are teachers that change, and they change a way that has a serious impact on their student.  Some close their schools and/or move away. Some go in a direction that is not palatable to a student.   Some instructors go from independent to being part of an organization that the student may or may not agree with.  Or perhaps they change organizations, leaving the student with conflicting loyalties.

Not sure what the solution is.  The logician in me wonders if there was a way to "grandfather" in existing students that perhaps didn't want to partake in the evangelical dimensions in the class for a given amount of time, but that would likely be a difficult aspect to implement in practice.  Plus, I also believe that its the student's responsibility to choose an instructor that they are proud of.  Once a student earns a black belt (or equivalent), that student will always be associated with that instructor.   Its important to choose wisely....even if choosing wisely means making a decision when one's had is nearly forced.  :asian:


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## IcemanSK (Feb 3, 2009)

It seems that there are a lot of issues that you need to discuss with your instructor beyond just the patch. In your OP, you seemed to think that it was the start of something bigger that he had planned. 

Talking with your instructor about your concerns that you're wondering if it might turn into a Christian MA program & what the expectations might then be is an important piece. IMO

Don't assume that it will be something that it may not be. Talk with your instructor & get the information so that you can make an informed decision. If it's just the patch, then ask yourself if you can live with that. If you ask & he tells you there is more planned, then you know.

Your first post was full of emotion, but in following posts you've said your instructor is a good guy & great instructor. Give him the benefit of the doubt & share your concerns with him. If he has intentions of changing things more than what you are comfortable with, then leave freely. But wondering what he's going to do, will just get you stressed out.

Let us know how it goes.


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## bowser666 (Feb 3, 2009)

Well thsi may or may not get me in trouble but I feel that if he ministers at a church outside the school, then why bring it into the dojo as well ?  Me personally I do not like "in your face religion" and I don't think it is a good idea to mix both in a training environment at a dojo. The most I would do perhaps is keep pamphlets on my counter about my church. From what you have mentioned it sounds liek he wants to alienate those that do not wear the patch. 

If he is looking to get rid of students that do not go to his preachings, then IMO this is a school not worth attending. I was raised Roman Catholic , and practice no religion. ( I have't for almost 20 years) Religion IMO is for people to discover on their own terms. Not have it force fed, whether in a home or public environment , family or community. Make it available to obtain info if they require it, but do not force them to wear patches, read books, on or about those topics.  Sorry If I am going off on a tangent, but this kind of thing aggravates me. Is he teaching MA for the sake of teaching or is he simply using it a a outlet to convert more people to his preachings ?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> Well this may or may not get me in trouble but I feel that if he ministers at a church outside the school, then why bring it into the dojo as well ?


If that is what he wants to do, some sort of martial arts ministry, that is fine.  The problem arises in that the ministry aspect was not a part of the curriculum when students first joined.



bowser666 said:


> Me personally I do not like "in your face religion" and I don't think it is a good idea to mix both in a training environment at a dojo. The most I would do perhaps is keep pamphlets on my counter about my church. From what you have mentioned it sounds liek he wants to alienate those that do not wear the patch.


I am not a fan of in your face religion either.  I find it counterproductive, as it tends to push away the very people you're trying to minister to, particularly when it is outside of a religious setting.

Now, if his goal is to do some kind of martial outreach, this approach will backfire.  If he is trying to create a dojo-haven for Christian students to feel spiritually 'safe' in, then this approach is just fine exept that he's changing the rules on almost a third of his existing students.  

It is his business and he can do what he wants.  He may lose customers, but as long as he doesn't tell them that they cannot train there without converting and without reclassifying the school as a religious organization, then he's on safe legal ground.   



bowser666 said:


> If he is looking to get rid of students that do not go to his preachings, then IMO this is a school not worth attending.
> Is he teaching MA for the sake of teaching or is he simply using it a a outlet to convert more people to his preachings ?


Probably both.  But so far, there is no indication that he is trying to force anyone to actually go _to_ his church.  The biggest problem that I see is that the students that are also church members are exerting pressure on those who are not and he is not doing anythng to curb this, and is thus condoning it.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.


On the subject of the patch alone, Shinobi, so what?

Realistically, if he wants to use an 'Army of God' kanji as his school symbol, that is his right to do.  If that is the school's symbol as of last month, then that is the school's symbol.  

There are kanji and symbols in plenty of MA patches that have religious symbolism and the students of those schools are required to either wear the uniform or go elsewhere.  They don't ask you to convert, but it is the symbol that the school owner or style has adopted.

Generally, a patch will be symbolic of the culture and philosophy of the style's founder.  Like it or not, Christianity is a part of American culture.  Nobody raises an eyebrow at Buddhist symbols or referrences in eastern martial arts because we just accept that it is part of the culture.  Heck, if the teacher is a genuine Shaolin monk, that is generally looked upon as a plus!

So you have a school that was founded by a minister.  While it may not be directly attached to his church, his philosopy will be infused in his teaching.  That is his background and where he comes from.  A school's philosophy will be to some extent an extension of the owner's.  

Out of curiousity, what MA is he teaching?  If you've stated this earlier in the thread, my apologies.

Daniel


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2009)

exile said:


> ?? How do you make that out, Josh? _Chinto_ is the name of a kata created by Bushi Matsumura, taken from the name of the Chinese sailor whose fighting style Matsumura was impressed by and whose technical content he recorded by means of that kata. It has no connection with 'Shinto'/Shintoism whatsoever.
> 
> And on another note: whether or not people use MAs as vehicles for their religion, the fact is that _this school was presented to the OPer as a MA school at the beginning, not as a ministry_. Had it been presented as a ministry, it's likely that the OPer would have gone elsewhere. What's been sprung on him is that the school is now _to be_ a ministrythat's fairly evident, I think, to the people thereputting the OPer in the position of either having to discontinue his training there or to adopt behaviors which go against his conscience. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether MAs can incorporate religious ideals or not; what it has to do with is the fact that the OPer's instructor is unilaterally changing the rules of the game in the middle.



Actually I didn't know that about the word _chinto_. Thanks! However, I'm not in disagreement. I originally posted to analyze the motives of the instructor in question. My guess was it wasn't originally presented as a ministry because it wasn't a ministry. 

But like I said, the issue sucks all around. For the instructor, my bet is he'd have to go against _his_ conscience to continue business as usual. And obviously for the students who are not of like mind to the instructor, they will have to go against _their_ conscience to continue training with him. Unfortunately, in situations like this, nobody's going to get everything they want.

I think a fair compromise would be for the instructor to actively find new homes for those who are against the change, such as Shinobi.
But I was entirely clear as to the issue, as should be clear from my first post.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, then why did you call your dojo a McDojo?  That is actually more disrespectful than the rest of it because calling a martial arts school a McDojo on the internet has serious implications.  McDojo is a pejorative and it implies inferior or worse training, price gouging, and five year old black belts.
> 
> If your dojo does not fall into this category, then calling it a McDojo on the internet incredibly disrespectful.



What are you talking about? He _never _called it a McDojo. Ever. Where are you getting this?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

Good post Josh!

Personally, I think that the best compromise would be for him to be open about what his philosphy is and where he draws it from.  He should keep his classes focused on teaching whatever martial art it is that he teaches.  If his katas are drawn from Biblical inspiration, then he needs say nothing more than, 'this kata represents Israel's triumph at the battle of Jericho.  Use lots of power as if you're smashing through a stone wall.'  

If he wants to put up a big Amercan flag and a big flag with a cross to represent the 'flag of Heaven', then great.  Bow in _respect_ of the flags that the school honors.  I bow to an American flag and a Korean flag.  Doesn't mean I'm thinking about becoming a Korean national.

For students who are interested in a greater depth of knowledge regarding the Biblical inspirations for the kata, they can talk to him one on one about it after class.  

But the class itself should be focused on teaching techniques, not on teaching theology.  Those not comfortable with _any_ religiously significant items in their dojo or dojang need to research their style and school symbols.  There may not be Christian symbolism, but there may be plenty of religiously oriented symbols that relate to perhaps Buddhism, Shinto, or any one of a number of eastern religions, depending upon the style's country of origin.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> What are you talking about? He _never _called it a McDojo. Ever. Where are you getting this?


I just edited my response. You are correct.

I misread an earlier post.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, then why did you call your dojo a McDojo? That is actually more disrespectful than the rest of it because calling a martial arts school a McDojo on the internet has serious implications. McDojo is a pejorative and it implies inferior or worse training, price gouging, and five year old black belts.
> 
> If your dojo does not fall into this category, then calling it a McDojo on the internet incredibly disrespectful.


Thanks Josh for pointing this out.  To Shinobi, my apologies.  I misread.

Daniel


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## chinto (Feb 3, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> See, what you're saying does not bear the weight of history. The hindu warrior class would disagree with you as would the Shaolin monks and the Knights Templar (or even the Rosicurians). The Yamabushi of Japan would have disagreed as well.
> 
> This is the problem with this discussion. People HAVE used MA as a vehicle for religion and quite effectively. There's a Christian Kempo group that does this as well, and there's also the CMAA (Christian Martial Artists Association). _Tai Chi Chuan_ and other martial arts are expressions of Taoism
> 
> ...



No my screen name is NOT a play on shinto!! it is the name of a chinese sailor who was shipwrecked on Okinawa, and Bushi Matsumura created a kata to teach what that sailor taught him about hand to hand combat and named it after him. that kata's name is Chinto kata.

no history does not bare this out.. in the far east the monks of the shaolin temples and  the zen budists who made up the "yamabushi" ( mountian warriors) in japan studied martial arts as a combat art! as a way to weild political and military power, and not as part of their religious training. the combat training , weather it was unarmed or the armed trianing was for that reason, and has nothing to do with zen budism or toism as far as the religion its self.   

on Okinawa where Karate comes from there was not a religious component to it. it was taught in secret as a means of self defense and survival of attacks by others .. both armed and unarmed.  I am not sure how you figure say kenjitsu was religious either, it was about taking a weapon and using it to kill. the same would be said about most arts.  kobujitsu is the art of using tools and things on okinawa as weapons to kill. not as some kind of religious act.

one of the few that would fit that would be the organized criminals of the thugie in India... thay saw the strangulation murder of people for robery as a religious act to one of their poly theistic godeses... kalli if i remember correctly from my history..  but it was not a martial art as such. but it was a good silent killing weapon they used. namly the silk garrate. 



I can not speak to the indian styles as i am not that fumilure with it. but as far as the  knights templers and Hospitlers .. their combat terchniques and training was not a religious act in and of its self. the defense of pilgrams in the middle east was seen as a religious act in that it was an act of charity, but it had nothing to do with christianity as far as the martial training. most came to that order already trainined in basic combat then.   

please go read a good history book about some of this.  yes some religious ideas were adopted by some practioners, but the study of Karate, or jujitsu or kempo or kung fu or arnis and most other martial arts were NOT about religion in and of them selves, but about combat and survival of that individual.


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## searcher (Feb 3, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> On the subject of the patch alone, Shinobi, so what?
> 
> Realistically, if he wants to use an 'Army of God' kanji as his school symbol, that is his right to do. If that is the school's symbol as of last month, then that is the school's symbol.
> 
> ...


 

This is true.   Our Isshinryu patch has _Megami-The Isshinryu Goddess_ on it, but I still wear mine.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2009)

chinto said:


> No my screen name is NOT a play on shinto!! it is the name of a chinese sailor who was shipwrecked on Okinawa, and Bushi Matsumura created a kata to teach what that sailor taught him about hand to hand combat and named it after him. that kata's name is Chinto kata.



This was already pointed out. I bow and humbly ask forgiveness.



> no history does not bare this out.. in the far east the monks of the shaolin temples and  the zen budists who made up the "yamabushi" ( mountian warriors) in japan studied martial arts as a combat art! as a way to weild political and military power, and not as part of their religious training. the combat training , weather it was unarmed or the armed trianing was for that reason, and has nothing to do with zen budism or toism as far as the religion its self.



Do you want me to quote from the Shaolin Temple Scriptures or quote monks i trained and conversed with to refute you?

Everything I've read on the Yamabushi would point to martial art as part of their religious training.

Heck, if we were to get into it, In Rome, the gladiatorial games were done as a tribute to the gods, as well.



> on Okinawa where Karate comes from there was not a religious component to it. it was taught in secret as a means of self defense and survival of attacks by others .. both armed and unarmed.  I am not sure how you figure say kenjitsu was religious either, it was about taking a weapon and using it to kill. the same would be said about most arts.  kobujitsu is the art of using tools and things on okinawa as weapons to kill. not as some kind of religious act.


Martial arts in Japan is older than Karate. And in any event, I never said that Karate or Kenjutsu were religiously influenced. I _did_ say that some martial arts have _no_ religious component,and some _do._ Kindly refute the things I actually wrote.



> one of the few that would fit that would be the organized criminals of the thugie in India... thay saw the strangulation murder of people for robery as a religious act to one of their poly theistic godeses... kalli if i remember correctly from my history..  but it was not a martial art as such. but it was a good silent killing weapon they used. namly the silk garrate.


Gross oversimplificaton. this is, by far, not the only example.





> I can not speak to the indian styles as i am not that fumilure with it.


Yet you did anyway.



> but as far as the  knights templers and Hospitlers .. their combat terchniques and training was not a religious act in and of its self. the defense of pilgrams in the middle east was seen as a religious act in that it was an act of charity, but it had nothing to do with christianity as far as the martial training. most came to that order already trainined in basic combat then.


Not even close.



> please go read a good history book about some of this.


It was my specialty in college.



> yes some religious ideas were adopted by some practioners, but the study of Karate, or jujitsu or kempo or kung fu or arnis and most other martial arts were NOT about religion in and of them selves, but about combat and survival of that individual.


So how exactly, then, do we disagree? We're both saying the same thing now. You've shifted your argument, or you were never very clear about it to begin with.


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## astrobiologist (Feb 3, 2009)

This is starting to get a little ugly...
:lurk:


Lots of good arguments.  It does sound like a lot of the same arguments back and forth.  Some martial arts are known to have a religious base, and there are some that are known to not have had any religious background.  I think we all agree on that.  Good times.


The question here is how the OP will handle this dilema.  I hope Shinobi will share with us how the conversation goes and what his final resolve will be in this situation.  As I've said before I hope the instructor is willing to listen to Shinobi, he may not agree and may likely not change his decision to bring the patch and his religious beliefs into his teaching, but this will be a chance for Shinobi to learn more about himself and for the instructor to realize that he needs to be open about the religious aspect of his teaching with new students.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Feb 3, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Out of curiousity, what MA is he teaching?  If you've stated this earlier in the thread, my apologies.
> 
> Daniel



Here's the irony of it, he's teaching Budo Taijutsu. Up until about two years ago (about six months  into my training) we were part of the Bujinkan. We wore Bujinkan patches and proudly portrayed ourselves as Bujinkan warriors.

Then he went on a trip to Japan and, when he returned, said that he had separated us from the organization. I'm not too sure what went on, but a lot of us have pieced together that Hatsumi attempted to teach him kuji and sensei said no, as it went against his Christian beliefs, then said he couldn't continue being part of an organization with such Non-Christian practices. Apparently Hatsumi was okay with this, stating that my teacher had been with him long enough, that there was really nothing left to teach him.

So yeah, I've always felt a bit raw about us becoming our own organization, so to speak, but what with the Bujinkan becoming a religious organization itself...I'm not too sure there's really much difference in either.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2009)

My bet is you'll probably see your instructor break with the Bujinkan altogether, on account of Hatsumi making it a religion.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> Here's the irony of it, he's teaching Budo Taijutsu. Up until about two years ago (about six months into my training) we were part of the Bujinkan. We wore Bujinkan patches and proudly portrayed ourselves as Bujinkan warriors.
> 
> Then he went on a trip to Japan and, when he returned, said that he had separated us from the organization. I'm not too sure what went on, but a lot of us have pieced together that Hatsumi attempted to teach him kuji and sensei said no, as it went against his Christian beliefs, then said he couldn't continue being part of an organization with such Non-Christian practices sooner along the way. Apparently Hatsumi was okay with this, stating that my teacher had been with him long enough, that there was really nothing left to teach him.
> 
> So yeah, I've always felt a bit raw about us becoming our own organization, so to speak, but what with the Bujinkan becoming a religious organization itself...I'm not too sure there's really much difference in either.


Well, I can think of one. 

From what I understand, Bujinkan's move to religious is for tax purposes. Your sensei is doing so for purely personal spiritual reasons from what you've said.

I can respect your sensei for following his conscience, though it seems odd that to get to such a high level in the Bujinkan that there would be nothing left to teach and somehow not come to this conclusion regarding non-Christian practice. If Kuji was the only beef, it would seem to me that he'd politely learn the technique, meditate on Christ, and thank Hatsumi for his time. Or simply say thanks but no thanks and remain in good standing with the organization. 

Daniel


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> My bet is you'll probably see your instructor break with the Bujinkan altogether, on account of Hatsumi making it a religion.




for some reason I couldn't edit this, so I'll say I just reread and realized that's what happened.


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## Uchinanchu (Feb 3, 2009)

With so much negativity towards their behavior in the school, your choice (and it is YOUR choice to make) seems simple enough.  Simply leave and find somewhere else to study.  If you cannot come to an agreement with your instructor on this issue, then it seems to me to be your only option.
On a more personal note, if your instructor and fellow students are being 'in your face' as you say, or in other words aggresive and unyeilding in their behavior towards you, then they are not being very 'Christian' at all.
Maybe this is not this best place (forum) for this, but I would like to pose a question to all here...
If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react?  Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility?   Just curious.


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## jarrod (Feb 3, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> Maybe this is not this best place (forum) for this, but I would like to pose a question to all here...
> If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react?  Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility?   Just curious.



honestly i have already heard it.  i would tell them i wasn't interested, & be polite as possible, but i would be annoyed.  i don't like being told what to think or believe.  

jf


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2009)

It happens often and I listen. Then again, as an instructor, my viewpoint is one of wanting to know my students, and it's usually my students who share their beliefs with me. And it's not just Christians. Plenty of Buddhists and Wiccans want to share.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> With so much negativity towards their behavior in the school, your choice (and it is YOUR choice to make) seems simple enough. Simply leave and find somewhere else to study. If you cannot come to an agreement with your instructor on this issue, then it seems to me to be your only option.
> On a more personal note, if your instructor and fellow students are being 'in your face' as you say, or in other words aggresive and unyeilding in their behavior towards you, then they are not being very 'Christian' at all.
> Maybe this is not this best place (forum) for this, but I would like to pose a question to all here...
> If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react? Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility? Just curious.


 

 I'd just say politely no thanks I'm very happy with my beliefs. Although tbh I don't understand the need people have to get others to join their religion. I have no wish for others to join mine, if they really want to there's no reason why they can't but I can't see why I should bother other people with what I believe.


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## jarrod (Feb 4, 2009)

i'm very happy to discuss religion with people; i'm always interested in how people understand the universe & their place in it.  i think that ****'s fascinating.  but i don't like being told that i have to see it that way too.

jf


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## Uchinanchu (Feb 4, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> With so much negativity towards their behavior in the school, your choice (and it is YOUR choice to make) seems simple enough. Simply leave and find somewhere else to study. If you cannot come to an agreement with your instructor on this issue, then it seems to me to be your only option.
> On a more personal note, if your instructor and fellow students are being 'in your face' as you say, or in other words aggresive and unyeilding in their behavior towards you, then they are not being very 'Christian' at all.
> Maybe this is not this best place (forum) for this, but I would like to pose a question to all here...
> If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react? Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility? Just curious.


So far there have been some interesting responces to the above question that I asked. I thought that I carefully worded it, but some people still seemed to take it a bit negatively. I do apologize...it was meant to be a slightly "loaded" question. 
The key point was that the individual in question is just trying to share their knowledge & beliefs. He/She is not trying to force you to do anything you are not open to. It's being done out of kindness and humility (they are opening themselves up to not only public scrutiny, but also condemnation and outright hostility at times).
Does this sound familiar to anyone here? For those of you who are Christians, it should. 
Again, sorry if my question has offended anyone here. That was not my intention. 
Yoroshiku


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## Carol (Feb 4, 2009)

Yoroshiku-san, I don't think anyone was offended by the question, or by you. 
Personally I am honored when someone I know shares a bit of their spirituality with me.  Spirituality is very intimate and if someone I know is sharing that part of their life with me, that means they have some trust in me as well.  That means a lot.  

Unfortunately in the United States there are also some folks that will approach an individual and seem friendly, but the friendship is kind of a disguise.  The person doesn't make that much of an attempt to get to know you, or to earn your friendship, the focus is more on recruiting people to a church or a path of faith.  To be on the receiving end of this sort of evangelizing is not a very good feeling...it is as if the person trying to convert you doesn't really care about you, and doesn't really have an interest in your friendship...it is like they are only trying for another "point" for their spiritual scorecard.  

This saddens me...even though I don't really identify myself as being a part of one particular faith community, I know I have grown spiritually from being really explore my spirituality with trusted friends.  It seems like the more heavy-handed people that are out there, there are less quiet people willing to bring up the subject of faith in a private conversation.


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## MJS (Feb 4, 2009)

Wow, this thread jumped a few pages since I last posted.  I still stand by my original thoughts.  Something else to consider.  We go to certain places because we expect certain things.  We go to a restaurant not to watch a movie, but to eat.  I bring my car to the dealership not so I can grab a bite to eat, but to have it serviced.  I go to the dojo to train in the martial arts and for self defense, not to learn about religion.  If I want to learn about religion, I have a place for that and its called a church.  You have everyone there who is of the same faith.  Depending on what religion you practice, you attend the proper church.

That being said, IMHO, I don't feel that religion should be brought into the dojo, seeing that you have a wide variety of people attending.  Like I said, everyone is free to believe in whatever they want, and I respect that.  What I don't like, is when something is pushed on me.  

To me, this would boarder on being a cultish school.  In essance, you're forcing someone who trains at that school, to have to partake in whatever the inst. is preaching.  Someone tells you that you have to wear a certain religious patch.  Why?  Why does someone have the right to force you to do something you don't want to do?

In the end its really simple...if you dont like whats going on at that school, leave.  Unless the option is given that you don't have to wear the patch, etc., but otherwise, I feel that its wrong.


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> So far there have been some interesting responces to the above question that I asked. I thought that I carefully worded it, but some people still seemed to take it a bit negatively. I do apologize...it was meant to be a slightly "loaded" question.
> The key point was that the individual in question is just trying to share their knowledge & beliefs. He/She is not trying to force you to do anything you are not open to. It's being done out of kindness and humility (they are opening themselves up to not only public scrutiny, but also condemnation and outright hostility at times).
> Does this sound familiar to anyone here? For those of you who are Christians, it should.
> Again, sorry if my question has offended anyone here. That was not my intention.
> Yoroshiku


 

Not offended in the least, I just don't want particularly to discuss strangers beliefs with them! Talking about them with friends is fine but there's loads of things I wouldn't stand chatting about with people I don't know.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> If a man (or woman) were to come into your establishment, place of business, home, etc... and kindly & humbly offer to share the words of God with you, how would you (honestly) react? Would you be more open to listening, regardless of your personal beliefs, if he/she showed humility? Just curious.


I'm always inclined to take a listen to what someone has to say, but once they say to me, "I know you say you're Christian, but you really aren't unless you're (insert name of denom)", then they lose my interest.  I have little interest in those trying to divide and conquer an existing belief system.  Once I tell them that I'm happy where I am, but thanks for sharing, it should end there.  If they wish to start argueing the point with me, then they've gone beyond mere 'sharing' and have disrespected me.

Now, if they want to have a friendly chat without trying to make me change my denom from Christian flavor 1 to Christian flavor 2, 3, or 5, then fine.  I'll even brew them a pot of coffee.

Incidentally, I have yet to have anyone of a non-christian bent come handing out literature or proselytizing door to door.  I have quite a few friends who are not Christian who have shared their beliefs with me in a friendly dialogue fashion and I have greatly enjoyed the conversations.  I'm always interested in learning about how others believe, even though (or perhaps because?) I am quite secure and happy in my own beliefs.

Daniel


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## Uchinanchu (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm always inclined to take a listen to what someone has to say, but once they say to me, "I know you say you're Christian, but you really aren't unless you're (insert name of denom)", then they lose my interest. I have little interest in those trying to divide and conquer an existing belief system. Once I tell them that I'm happy where I am, but thanks for sharing, it should end there. If they wish to start argueing the point with me, then they've gone beyond mere 'sharing' and have disrespected me.
> 
> Now, if they want to have a friendly chat without trying to make me change my denom from Christian flavor 1 to Christian flavor 2, 3, or 5, then fine. I'll even brew them a pot of coffee.
> 
> ...


There have been some very enlightening answers to my last qestion, and I trully appreciate everyone's honesty and openness with your answers.
That said, Mr. Sullivan has made an interesting observation (hightligted above).
I'm curious as to your opinion on this (sorry, I tend to be annoyingly inquisitive at times) but do you believe that it's wrong for a practicing Christian (or any other religious practitioner) to go door-to-door or solicit people in public with literature?
I myself remember many years ago when there used to be many different belief groups at the international airports. Of course, after 911, I'm sure those days are long gone...


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## chinto (Feb 4, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> So far there have been some interesting responces to the above question that I asked. I thought that I carefully worded it, but some people still seemed to take it a bit negatively. I do apologize...it was meant to be a slightly "loaded" question.
> The key point was that the individual in question is just trying to share their knowledge & beliefs. He/She is not trying to force you to do anything you are not open to. It's being done out of kindness and humility (they are opening themselves up to not only public scrutiny, but also condemnation and outright hostility at times).
> Does this sound familiar to anyone here? For those of you who are Christians, it should.
> Again, sorry if my question has offended anyone here. That was not my intention.
> Yoroshiku




i am not offended, and have had it happen.  my reaction is when it is done politely as in " here is what i believe and think on religion" ( insert the flavor or type). when done that way, my reaction is often a dialog  of  this is what i believe, and  as long as its a give and take and no animosity or what have you, it can be enjoyable. I do not think i am liable to change their mind if they believe differently then i do, and i know they are not going to change my mind. But the chance to learn what others think and how they see the world and the universe can be a very stimulating thing!

I still say that theology has no real place in the dojo though.  at least not as part of the training there.  the dojo is there to teach a system of combat, and not religon.


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> There have been some very enlightening answers to my last qestion, and I trully appreciate everyone's honesty and openness with your answers.
> That said, Mr. Sullivan has made an interesting observation (hightligted above).
> I'm curious as to your opinion on this (sorry, I tend to be annoyingly inquisitive at times) but do you believe that it's wrong for a practicing Christian (or any other religious practitioner) to go door-to-door or solicit people in public with literature?
> I myself remember many years ago when there used to be many different belief groups at the international airports. Of course, after 911, I'm sure those days are long gone...


 

Is it wrong to go door to door trying to hawk your religion? yes, frankly.
Why should they be so arrogant as to believe they have the right to invade others privacy because they have a religion they think everyone should share?
Missionaries have ruined many peoples lives, it's one thing to go to other countries wishing to help medically and educationally others less well off but to do this only at a price of the people being helped converting to missionaries religion is immoral.
The best way to convert people to your religion is to lead a good honest life that others might look at it and say 'well look what their religion does for them' and then join them. going out making nuisances of themselves is wrong. 
If the intructor and the other 'believers' in the dojo had just done this, got on quietly with their faith, not brought it forcefully to the other students attention, they may well have actually attracted someone to join their faith. Instead they have alienated students by bringing religion forceably into a place that had been 'neutral' if you like and will lose students.


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## Hagakure (Feb 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> *Is it wrong to go door to door trying to hawk your religion? yes, frankly.*
> *Why should they be so arrogant as to believe they have the right to invade others privacy because they have a religion they think everyone should share?*
> Missionaries have ruined many peoples lives, it's one thing to go to other countries wishing to help medically and educationally others less well off but to do this only at a price of the people being helped converting to missionaries religion is immoral.
> The best way to convert people to your religion is to lead a good honest life that others might look at it and say 'well look what their religion does for them' and then join them. going out making nuisances of themselves is wrong.
> If the intructor and the other 'believers' in the dojo had just done this, got on quietly with their faith, not brought it forcefully to the other students attention, they may well have actually attracted someone to join their faith. Instead they have alienated students by bringing religion forceably into a place that had been 'neutral' if you like and will lose students.


 
Oh my word yes. It annoys the heck out of me. Why can't religious people accept that not everyone wants their wares? If I go through Wolverhampton town centre during lunch, I'm literally, daily, bombarded with arrogant sods insisting that I be saved, and that "I think I'm ok, but you're not". I had that yesterday, (is it wrong to use your MA to deck someone like this?) some guy actually coming up to me, telling me that I "wasn't fine", and that only "God and Jesus can save you". Who the bloody hell is he to tell me that? AAHAHAHAHHHH!!! The sheer, inutterable arrogance is mind-blowing. I happen to have my own spiritual beliefs, that I keep to myself. They're mine, and I don't expect or even want others to "be like me", wanna be Christian? Fine. Go be Christian, but for pitys sake, don't assume that EVERYONE else wants to be one too. 

I also stand by my original post, if he insists that the class is going this way, it's up to you. I'd walk. As I also mentioned, my sifu is a devout Muslim, yet never once feels the need to bring that into his class. This really makes my blood boil.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 5, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> I'm curious as to your opinion on this (sorry, I tend to be annoyingly inquisitive at times) but do you believe that it's wrong for a practicing Christian (or any other religious practitioner) to go door-to-door or solicit people in public with literature?
> .


 
Yes. As far as I am concerned the law should be modified so as to include this as trespassing. Ditto any other religion but it seems I've only ever had Christians or people who claim to be Christians do this. They learn very quickly to *L*eave *N*ow *A*nd *N*ever *C*ome *B*ack.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

Uchinanchu said:


> There have been some very enlightening answers to my last qestion, and I trully appreciate everyone's honesty and openness with your answers.
> That said, Mr. Sullivan has made an interesting observation (hightligted above).
> I'm curious as to your opinion on this (sorry, I tend to be annoyingly inquisitive at times) but do you believe that it's wrong for a practicing Christian (or any other religious practitioner) to go door-to-door or solicit people in public with literature?
> I myself remember many years ago when there used to be many different belief groups at the international airports. Of course, after 911, I'm sure those days are long gone...


No, I do not consider it wrong.  I have had some folks come to my door with literature who were very friendly and very polite and very respectful.  I've invited them in for coffee and kindly listened to what they had to say.  It was very interesting to compare the differences between their brand of Christianity and my own.  

If someone loves their faith so much and wishes to *share* it (key word is share, as opposed to push), I am happy to listen, provided that I am able to do so at the time.

I don't have a problem with anyone knocking doors.  If you say missionaries can't, then neither can political campaign volunteers and door to door salesmen or home improvement guys trying to plug their business.  Actually, we get far more of the home repair/improvement guys than any of the rest.  Likewise, some are polite and others pushy.

Personally, I'd like to see some Shinto, Jewish, Buddhist, B'hai (sp?), Hindu or Muslim missionaries, just to mix it up and keep things interesting.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Yes. As far as I am concerned the law should be modified so as to include this as trespassing. Ditto any other religion but it seems I've only ever had Christians or people who claim to be Christians do this. They learn very quickly to *L*eave *N*ow *A*nd *N*ever *C*ome *B*ack.


Now, would you extend this to door to door salespeople or political campaigning?  Or people trying to get signatures for petitions?  Or the girls scouts?

I don't do missionary work, so don't get me wrong; I'm not offended by the statement.  But once you start passing laws or modifying laws to keep one group from knocking doors, then you kind of have to extend that to make all door knocking illegal.  Otherwise, it becomes discrimination.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

chinto said:


> I still say that theology has no real place in the dojo though. at least not as part of the training there. the dojo is there to teach a system of combat, and not religon.


My feeling is that a privately run dojo can teach whatever the owner wishes to.  But, don't bring people into a non religious karate class and then change the rules.  

I have no problem with someone running a religiously themed dojo, but that needs to be up front.  In essense, be honest about what you are.

If a sensei wishes to add the religious element to what has been a non-religious dojo, as is the case with the OP, he or she should offer a separate class for those who are interested.  More importantly, in the non religious classes, keep the religion out of it.

As for the patch?  It's his school and he can make the marque in any fashion he wishes.

Daniel


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now, would you extend this to door to door salespeople or political campaigning? Or people trying to get signatures for petitions? Or the girls scouts?
> 
> I don't do missionary work, so don't get me wrong; I'm not offended by the statement. But once you start passing laws or modifying laws to keep one group from knocking doors, then you kind of have to extend that to make all door knocking illegal. Otherwise, it becomes discrimination.
> 
> Daniel


 

I wouldn't necessarily make it illegal but iIdon't want sales people or campaigners at my door either. We don't get scouts/guides coming to the door as its the policy of the Guide Association and the Scout Association not to allow members to go doorstepping for any reason. 
Though thinking about it I don't see why it couldn't be made illegal to doorstep!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

Making door knocking illegal wouldn't bother me, provided that it wasn't targeted to one specific group.  I'm kind of whole hog or no hog on that sort of thing.

Personally door knocking doesn't bother me, but I can see where it would bother others.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm not so bothered about why they knock I just wish they wouldn't as I'm a shift worker and need to sleep during the day!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

That I can definitely understand.  

I'm personally alright with them so long as they don't get pushy.  Personally, I'd rather the door knockers than the darned telemarketers.

Daniel


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 5, 2009)

Invite them over for a baby bbq, ask them to bring a baby. It's all good.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> Invite them over for a baby bbq, ask them to bring a baby. It's all good.


Get in mah belly!  Baby... the other, other white meat!

Daniel


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 5, 2009)

Talk to your teacher.  Tell him why you don't think you should have to wear this patch.  I'm a Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact and I would have a fit if someone made me wear a patch of any type that relates to religion (that includes Catholicism).  I'm just not one for forcing your religious beliefs down someone's throat.  If I had to wear the patch I would leave and go elsewhere.


----------



## Kreth (Feb 5, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I'm just not one for forcing your religious beliefs down someone's throat.


Really? Your vehement homophobic ranting a while back would seem to indicate otherwise... Just sayin'... :idunno:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Talk to your teacher. Tell him why you don't think you should have to wear this patch. I'm a Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact and I would have a fit if someone made me wear a patch of any type that relates to religion (that includes Catholicism). I'm just not one for forcing your religious beliefs down someone's throat. If I had to wear the patch I would leave and go elsewhere.


If someone feels that strongly about the patch, then yes, they should go elsewhere.

I see the patch as being relatvely unimportant.  It is the owners choice to make his marque the way he wishes.  The gi is only worn in the school anyway.  

This is not forcing religion down anyone's throat; the other student's pressuring and proselytizing is.

Also, if the students are paying (I assume that they are), then severing ties with the the organization where they hold rank (Bujinkan in this case) for personal reasons is _*very*_ inappropriate and could be considered a breach of contract and bait & switch.  Once he's broken with the parent org, the students future advancement is not recognized outside of the individual school.  Part of why I train at a Kukkiwon dojang is _*because*_ I wanted a rank that meant something more than just the school's say so.

Breaking with the Bujinkan should have been discussed with the students.  

Daniel


----------



## Aiki Lee (Feb 5, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Really? Your vehement homophobic ranting a while back would seem to indicate otherwise... Just sayin'... :idunno:


 
I read through this whole thread, and I can't seem to be able to tell what you are talking about.


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I read through this whole thread, and I can't seem to be able to tell what you are talking about.


 

It was a rant JadeDragon made on another thread that makes the comments by him on this one seem somewhat hypocritical.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If someone feels that strongly about the patch, then yes, they should go elsewhere.
> 
> I see the patch as being relatvely unimportant. It is the owners choice to make his marque the way he wishes. The gi is only worn in the school anyway.
> 
> ...


 

That I didn't know or realise. so it's going to be quite a problem getting rank recognised elsewhere when they start at another school/club?


----------



## The Last Legionary (Feb 5, 2009)

> I read through this whole thread, and I can't seem to be able to tell what you are talking about.



Jade made several rude comments in The Study. I think he was exiled from there as a result.
Principal&#8217;s outing of gay student
Gays aren't natural? Who cares? God?
Seems this comes up every so often.

Lets get back to that Christian Virus thing. I've got time to kill while the baby cooks. 


Ok, seriously though, if it was me, and I was uncomfortable with the situation I would talk to the instructor and tell him politely that I came to train, not to convert or pray, that I am happy with my own faith, and that wearing another faiths symbolisms isn't going to happen. I would assure him that I was bringing these concerns to him because I respect him, value being a student and want to continue what has been a good relationship.  Most people would be ok with that, I think. What do I know though. I'm crazy.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> That I didn't know or realise. so it's going to be quite a problem getting rank recognised elsewhere when they start at another school/club?


Well, I'm not Bujinkan, but if the owner is no longer part of the org, then I'd assume that he isn't using the Bujinkan channels of certifying rank.  To my knowledge, most orgs don't track kyu rank students; only yudansha.  I can only assume that Bujinkan is the same.  That being the case, only a dan grade student would be recognized by the Bujinkan and thus other Bujinkan schools.

His church oriented students (22 of 30 if I remember correctly) likely won't care.  Given that Shinobi spoke very highly of the sensei's teaching and skills, the remaining seven might be alright with the break as well if they didn't feel that they were being pressured to join his church.

But for those who feel uncomfortable with the new direction that the school has taken, without a dan rank, they're likely out in the cold.

Daniel


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## Makalakumu (Feb 5, 2009)

Perhaps consider the fact that some spiritual training to deal with the carnage you caused protecting yourself may be necessary.  At the beginning and the end of one of my Arnis forms, there is a prayer to God to ask forgiveness.  I am an Atheist, so I use the time to clear my mind and focus in a Daoist or Zen Fashion.  Regardless, I can see the benefits from a SD perspective of having some kind of moral/spiritual training.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 5, 2009)

As for the comments I made A LONG TIME AGO......that was about an entirely different topic and I still feel the same. Thats my opinion. 

 So every time I make a post are you going to refer back to those comments I made.  Do you not have anything better to do than look up old posts that aren't relevant to the topic at hand????  Boy you must have a boring life and to much time on your hands.   

Now back to the religious patch....


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## Grenadier (Feb 5, 2009)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
_Please, return to the original topic.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 5, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> _*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_
> 
> Please, return to the original topic.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you.


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 5, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> As for the comments I made A LONG TIME AGO......that was about an entirely different topic and I still feel the same. Thats my opinion.
> 
> So every time I make a post are you going to refer back to those comments I made.  Do you not have anything better to do than look up old posts that aren't relevant to the topic at hand????  Boy you must have a boring life and to much time on your hands.
> 
> Now back to the religious patch....


Probably. People need to know what type of spiteful, hate spewing, bigoted types they are dealing with sometimes. It helps put their credibility in proper perspective. After all, if all Christianity believed as you do, I'd seriously endorse treating Christians like the Romans treated Christ. That beaten, bloodied and scourged bit, then nailed to a tree.  Thankfully 99% of the Christians I know aren't like that and are actually decent people. But I don't count anyone who advocates execution for gays as people, or worth any humane treatment. Them, I consider useless wastes of DNA better suited for use as fertalizer. Anything these type spew is suspect to me, and I don't consider them Christians. 

But yes, lets return to the topic on hand. Discussing your malfunctions isn't appropriate here.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 5, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> Probably. People need to know what type of gracious, tolerant type person they are dealing with sometimes. It helps put their credibility in proper perspective. After all, if all Christianity believed as you do, I'd seriously endorse treating Christians like Christ. That beaten, bloodied and scourged bit done to Christ was aweful. then nailed to a tree. Terrible. Thankfully 99% of the people I know are not like that and are actually decent people. But I don't count anyone who advocates execution for gays as people, or worth any humane treatment. Them, I consider useless wastes of DNA better suited for use as fertalizer. Anything these type spew is suspect to me, and I don't consider them Christians. Now you JadeDragon I consider like Christ because you have always been brutally honest and truthful even if I disagree with your beliefs.
> 
> But yes, lets return to the topic on hand. Discussing your malfunctions isn't appropriate here.


 

I'm glad to see that you followed the moderators request and returned to the topic (not). Move on. Thats been a long time ago little boy.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Tez3* 

 
_That I didn't know or realise. so it's going to be quite a problem getting rank recognised elsewhere when they start at another school/club?_



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, I'm not Bujinkan, but if the owner is no longer part of the org, then I'd assume that he isn't using the Bujinkan channels of certifying rank. To my knowledge, most orgs don't track kyu rank students; only yudansha. I can only assume that Bujinkan is the same. That being the case, only a dan grade student would be recognized by the Bujinkan and thus other Bujinkan schools.
> 
> His church oriented students (22 of 30 if I remember correctly) likely won't care. Given that Shinobi spoke very highly of the sensei's teaching and skills, the remaining seven might be alright with the break as well if they didn't feel that they were being pressured to join his church.
> 
> ...


And so returning to the topic at hand, I would assume that my earlier post, quoted above is correct.  

To add to that, it would behoove this instructor to write some sort of letter of recommendation regarding rank to those who wish to leave his school due to his change of direction.  It would also behoove him to allow them to leave on good terms without any sort of religious berating.

I'd be interested in hearing the persptective of any Bujinkan members who may post here.

Daniel


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## Kreth (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'd be interested in hearing the persptective of any Bujinkan members who may post here.


All ranks are issued from the Honbu dojo, but I'm not sure how well the records are kept, especially for non-yudansha. I know Hatsumi Sensei does keep a book containing the names of those having godan or higher. I actually watched him write my name in it when I was promoted.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

Kreth said:


> All ranks are issued from the Honbu dojo, but I'm not sure how well the records are kept, especially for non-yudansha. I know Hatsumi Sensei does keep a book containing the names of those having godan or higher. I actually watched him write my name in it when I was promoted.


I'd gather that if kyu grades are done in house at the dojo, then there is probably no record outside of the dojo.  Not being Bujinkan, I don't know what degree the oranization involves itself in Kyu promotion.

Daniel


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## Kreth (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'd gather that if kyu grades are done in house at the dojo, then there is probably no record outside of the dojo.  Not being Bujinkan, I don't know what degree the oranization involves itself in Kyu promotion.
> 
> Daniel


All ranks are supposed to come from Japan. I have the certificate for every promotion I received, from the Honbu dojo.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now, would you extend this to door to door salespeople or political campaigning? Or people trying to get signatures for petitions? Or the girls scouts?
> 
> I don't do missionary work, so don't get me wrong; I'm not offended by the statement. But once you start passing laws or modifying laws to keep one group from knocking doors, then you kind of have to extend that to make all door knocking illegal. Otherwise, it becomes discrimination.
> 
> Daniel


 
I DO extend it to everyone. The sign on my outer breezeway door says "Private Property--No Soliciting". That usually does it.

I've never witnessed anyone try to take it further than that but if they DO ever slide open my breezeway door and try to Enter the house to my front door, the sign, inside the breezeway, on the front door, saying "PRIVATE PROPERTY--NO TRESPASSING--VIOLATORS WIL BE SHOT-SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN" ought to sufficiently get the message across.

(Well, okay, I bought the second sign as a joke, and my folks didn't like the second one, so took it down last month, but you get the idea. I don't ever welcome ANYONE to my home who I do not know and/or have not invited).


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## astrobiologist (Feb 5, 2009)

Hey all...

I'm in Colorado for a few days to interview for grad school.

I'm still wandering if the OP has talked to his instructor yet.  Shinobi:  Are you out there?  What's the news?


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## Grenadier (Feb 5, 2009)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
_Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71377

Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Feb 5, 2009)

No, I haven't been to class yet, I've been swamped with work, I haven't gotten the chance to talk to him


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## terryl965 (Feb 5, 2009)

Shinobi when you do please post want and how it went.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I DO extend it to everyone. The sign on my outer breezeway door says "Private Property--No Soliciting". That usually does it.
> 
> I've never witnessed anyone try to take it further than that but if they DO ever slide open my breezeway door and try to Enter the house to my front door, the sign, inside the breezeway, on the front door, saying "PRIVATE PROPERTY--NO TRESPASSING--VIOLATORS WIL BE SHOT-SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN" ought to sufficiently get the message across.
> 
> (Well, okay, I bought the second sign as a joke, and my folks didn't like the second one, so took it down last month, but you get the idea. I don't ever welcome ANYONE to my home who I do not know and/or have not invited).


 
Yes, the no soliciting sign pretty much blankets everyone, and I suppose that if you have a camera snaping pics of everyone who comes to the door, technically, trespassers _are_ 'shot'. Though on private property, you'd be well within your rights to have a 'no proselytizing' sign as well.

But in the original post that I replied to... 



Andy Moynihan said:


> Yes. As far as I am concerned the law should be modified so as to include this as trespassing. Ditto any other religion but it seems I've only ever had Christians or people who claim to be Christians do this. They learn very quickly to *L*eave *N*ow *A*nd *N*ever *C*ome *B*ack.


 
...you had couched it as making it _illegal_ for people to do the door to door preaching which is very different from a property owner simply banning all forms proselytizing from his or her own land. That is why I asked about whether or not you felt that _such a law_ should extend to other forms of door knocking as well. In my area at least, it is not considered trespassing to do door to door sales, take petitions door to door, or for kids to go trying to solicit donations for school events. Thus, in order to avoid any one group or groups crying foul on grounds of religious discrimination, the state would pretty much have to make door-knocking in general illegal. 

Daniel


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 6, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Shinobi when you do please post want and how it went.


 
Yes, I'm interested too.


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, the no soliciting sign pretty much blankets everyone, and I suppose that if you have a camera snaping pics of everyone who comes to the door, technically, trespassers _are_ 'shot'. Though on private property, you'd be well within your rights to have a 'no proselytizing' sign as well.
> 
> But in the original post that I replied to...
> 
> ...


 

We have no law of trespass in England (it's a so called wooden law, it's not a criminal charge but you can take it to civil court, at your own expense not the publics), people can only be charged if they cause damage so banning people from your doorstep is difficult.
I find a big dog and a sign saying survivors will be prosecuted works wonders! I've seen a sign that says 'my dog can go from the door to the gate in 5 seconds, if you can do it in less you're welcome to try'.


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## AoCAdam (Feb 6, 2009)

Hmm that is very interesting. Is this happening alot recently or is this just an instance few and far between?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

AoCAdam said:


> Hmm that is very interesting. Is this happening alot recently or is this just an instance few and far between?


Dojos going churchy?  Don't know.  I know a good number of Christian martial arts groups, but they often teach on church grounds as an offering to existing Christians who simply want either a Christ centered philosophy or who do not want any non-Christian philosphy.

Daniel


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, the no soliciting sign pretty much blankets everyone, and I suppose that if you have a camera snaping pics of everyone who comes to the door, technically, trespassers _are_ 'shot'. Though on private property, you'd be well within your rights to have a 'no proselytizing' sign as well.
> 
> But in the original post that I replied to...
> 
> ...


 
You would think, wanting to be a writer, I'd learn to narrow down my words within one context a little better.

But yes, I see your point, and agree.


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## horton (Feb 7, 2009)

TigerCraneGuy said:


> Hey Shinobi,
> 
> How are you?
> 
> ...



 maybe church on christmas and easter


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## Skippy (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm not a Christian. Come to think of it I'm not really religious at all. When I'm training or teaching or even around students or other martial artist. I avoid talking about religious or political beliefs. It's much better that way.:soapbox:


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## xfighter88 (Dec 20, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.
> 
> Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.
> ...


 
A few things:
 1. this is the USA you feel free to quit the dojo if you don't like it. your instructor owns a private business. He doesn't have to change anything if he doesn't want to.
 2. You say that you are a Christian but not practicing. Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying you are a vegitarian but you still eat meat every day.
 3. I don't get what you are saying about focusing on the martial art to improve oneself. Wouldn't you say that the ideals of martial arts are pretty close to the ideals that Christ showed. (integrity, generosity, and treating everyone fairly)

Okay now it's my turn to "offend" people. Don't walk around calling yourself a Christian if you get offended by people who are actually living out the faith that they and you claim to be.


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## Mider1985 (Dec 21, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.
> 
> Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.
> ...


 
If your not a practicing christian then what are you? I mean if im a cop and i never go out on duty then how am i cop? But anyway I am also a minister, if he's gonna be doing that He should just change the name to Christian martial arts or whatever, because he shouldnt be forcing people to wear religious symbols in stuff they dont believe in. You cant force religion down someones throat no matter how much you try or have a good intention with it it only works if God lets them get it if there ready to recieve it ANYWAY. Yeah why dont you just tell him he shouldnt do this, dont be afraid of him. Or tell him to change the name to Christian martial arts or whatever. by the way Christianity is not a virus. Only thing that is a virus is ignorence, and biggotry things like that are a virus


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## Skippy (Dec 21, 2009)

Mider1985 said:


> If your not a practicing christian then what are you? I mean if im a cop and i never go out on duty then how am i cop? But anyway I am also a minister, if he's gonna be doing that He should just change the name to Christian martial arts or whatever, because he shouldnt be forcing people to wear religious symbols in stuff they dont believe in. You cant force religion down someones throat no matter how much you try or have a good intention with it it only works if God lets them get it if there ready to recieve it ANYWAY. Yeah why dont you just tell him he shouldnt do this, dont be afraid of him. Or tell him to change the name to Christian martial arts or whatever. by the way Christianity is not a virus. Only thing that is a virus is ignorence, and biggotry things like that are a virus


 
Wow!

Well due to the horns on top of my head I could never go into a church as if I did I would burst into flames.:flame:


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## Cirdan (Dec 21, 2009)

Skippy said:


> Wow!
> 
> Well due to the horns on top of my head I could never go into a church as if I did I would burst into flames.:flame:


 
I`m told wearing heavy sunblock and walking backwards over the dorstep helps protect you. Also tucking the tail into one of your pant legs is advidable as it is more sensitive to the holy fire.


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## punisher73 (Dec 21, 2009)

searcher said:


> I am a 100% hardcore fundementalist Christain, but I don't think he should be forcing anything off on his class.
> 
> Our faith dictates that you should not force your faith off on others. People have to come on their own.
> 
> Voice your opposition and be prepared to leave.


 
I agree, I have always thought that the best ministry to others is to live a life that makes them ask you deeper questions and provide an opportunity to talk with them about your faith.  No one likes other people's beliefs always thrown in your face, even if you do agree with them.


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## The Last Legionary (Dec 21, 2009)

Couple of centerfolds taped to the changing room door, a gay rights pamphlet or 2 in the lobby, and make sure your lobby music is Marilyn Manson. That'll drive the buggers right out. Be sure to add a pentacle to your school patch as well.

Seriously, in cases like this you either discuss the matter and air your concerns with the instructors/owners and come to an understanding and happy conclusion, or you leave, or you stay silent and suck it up.  Some people take their religion seriously.


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## Joab (Dec 22, 2009)

It's his school, he can require anything he wants, if you don't like it you can leave. Sure, you should talk with him about it, if the answer isn't what you want to hear, leave. It's really that simple.


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## Jdokan (Dec 22, 2009)

In full agreement with Joab...If there is something that goes against your beliefs...make a decision.....I think that is what typically occurs when most students leave their instructor...difference of opinion...not necessarily a bad thing....Good luck with your decision, I've been there, it does weigh on you!


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## kenkyukai (Dec 25, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.
> 
> Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.
> ...


Shinobi,
Sorry you got wrapped up in that , Fundamentalist religion is the greatest threat the world faces today. As americans, the news tells us that its all in the middle east, they lie alot.


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## K831 (Dec 25, 2009)

I have rarely seen a patch for any studio that didn't carry with it some religious connotation, mythology, ideology, ethic etc.... for some reason when Christians do it, it's a big deal.

Sounds like our instructor was pretty legit from the beginning about his faith, and his level of commitment to it, so I don't think you have any cause to be upset with his redesign of the patch. I think it is his school, and he can infuse his religion as much, or as little, as he chooses. 

I am deeply religious, however, I am not as "flamboyant" about it as many Christians, and the trendy, ware it on your sleeve like its a brand name approach bugs me.  

If the environment or culture he is creating withing his school makes you uncomfortable enough, I wouldn't blame you for a second for leaving. If you decide "eh, he means well and I like most of the teachings just fine anyways so it doesn't bother me" than stay.

Totally up to you.  Do let him know your concerns though, so you can leave it as adults if need be. Hopefully he is "Christian enough" to be open and understanding of your personal choice. 

Good luck.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Jan 1, 2010)

well I'm rather impressed to see that people opened up a topic that had died out in february (almost a year ago!)

To wrap up, hopefully for good, then I will announce that I have since quit training with aforementioned teacher and began my journey anew in Kajukenbo with a largely secular teacher and environment. Sadly enough, my old dojo suffered too much from its religious dealings, becoming almost more of a hang-out rather than a school for martial arts. To those who were offended, this is what I meant by "virus", in the sense that a virus invades the body and prevents it from functioning. In this case, the "body" was the dojo, and the Christian "virus" prevented training from occuring. I have no  qualms with people who call themselves Christian, or anything, really, so long as it does not interfere with other people.

And in response to a previous post, I realized on my own the hypocricy of calling myself a non-practicing Christian, and have thus decided that I am simply without religion. Call it agnosticism if you like, but I do not believe the human mind can comprehend what truly created existence, nor do I believe it was as simple as an omnipotent being. 

Thank you all for your posts, but this topic has gone on far too long.


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## GreatLakes (Jan 30, 2010)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.
> 
> Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.
> ...


 
Time to find a real martial arts place.  If what you are saying is true, then your "instructor" is a crackpot.

Do yourself a favor and run like hell.


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## Tez3 (Jan 31, 2010)

GreatLakes said:


> Time to find a real martial arts place. If what you are saying is true, then your "instructor" is a crackpot.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and run like hell.


 
Erm, did you read the previous post at all?


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## Maiden_Ante (Feb 3, 2010)

We don't even wear patches. If the sensei would like me to, sure, but I wouldn't if it was some religious symbol that went against my beliefs.

And mixing up religion in your MA like that? That's simply wrong.

Your teacher should not try to force anything on you, his personal beliefs ARE his personal beliefs. Make a protest, and if he doesn't buy it, quit and find another dojo.


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## Flea (Feb 3, 2010)

In my class we don't wear anything at all.  :bangahead:


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 3, 2010)

Flea said:


> In my class we don't wear anything at all. :bangahead:


 
Flea...where is it again that you practice??


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## repz (Feb 3, 2010)

That would annoy me, for all you know hes probably using it to swell his church numbers. I would have definetly left, I was raised as Catholic, but my own studies on history and tracking down the history of chrisitianity and its formation changed all of that.

If you are paying for it, then its wrong. You invested time and money into the art only for him to add a new element to it that you arent interested in, that promotes his own personal beliefs, it seems intrusive to me. Refuse to wear the patch, thats what I would have done.


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## adamx (Jul 23, 2010)

I know this threads is a bit old but I have something to say on this topic, I dont think this is right, Im assuming this is the "ninjutsu" school I was looking into a few years ago. This guy was all god this and god that. Which is fine if I was at church.  People go to these kind of place's  to learn the martial art not about religion. Now dont get me wrong I believe in god and attend church on occasion but one thing I cant stand is having god constantly put in my face in place where it has lil to do with religion. Im a mechanic by trade and once worked at a shop, where the owner was constantly talking about god( all the guy did was judge judge judge people!) I quite because I was going to ktfo out him. So I say to anyone in this situation just leave it's your choice.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 23, 2010)

adamx said:


> I know this threads is a bit old but I have something to say on this topic, I dont think this is right, Im assuming this is the "ninjutsu" school I was looking into a few years ago. This guy was all god this and god that. Which is fine if I was at church. People go to these kind of place's to learn the martial art not about religion. Now dont get me wrong I believe in god and attend church on occasion but one thing I cant stand is having god constantly put in my face in place where it has lil to do with religion. Im a mechanic by trade and once worked at a shop, where the owner was constantly talking about god( all the guy did was judge judge judge people!) I quite because I was going to ktfo out him. So I say to anyone in this situation just leave it's your choice.


I think that schools like this appeal to people who feel that everything in their lives must be 'Christian' no matter what it is. I think that such schools meet a need. So long as the school owner is up front about the religious nature of the school, be it Christian or anything else, it is fine: train there it its what you want and don't if it isn't. 

The problem here, if I recall (this thread is quite old) is that it didn't start out that way, but rather shifted from religion being more of an undertone to being a major focus during the time that the OP was there.

Daniel


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## Blade96 (Jul 23, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Yes. As far as I am concerned the law should be modified so as to include this as trespassing. Ditto any other religion but it seems I've only ever had Christians or people who claim to be Christians do this. They learn very quickly to *L*eave *N*ow *A*nd *N*ever *C*ome *B*ack.



if they are jehovahs witness knocking, pretend u are a roman catholic and ask them to join you in praying the rosary 



Flea said:


> In my class we don't wear anything at all.  :bangahead:



Naked martial arts?  Interesting 

btw there is a lesbian brown belt in my dojo, so i can imagine what bringing religion a lot of it is against homosexuality, into our shotokan would be like for her and anyone else who is not against her ( like me, im all for gay rights)

Just thought I'd bring this up cause there are more than just the issue of forcing beliefs on others. thus far which is only what was discussed here. But Many religions and branches also believe in things that are harmful (and would hurt people like my homosexual dojo mate)

Thankfully our senseis dont do that. He did make a reference to god in class once though and it was funny though. We were doing punching on the spot and he said "punch hard and use yer hips, thats what god gave em to ya for. And - If you dont believe in god - He gave em to ya anyway"

I almost laughed out loud at that. And Im agnostic.


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## Yondanchris (Aug 2, 2010)

A lot of good insights, 

  A dojo is the realm of the Sensei, and in this case the sensei is a minister. In the old days martial arts and "religion" where interwoven
and it was difficult to find a non-religous dojo. Today there are thousands of atheist dojos around. 

I have students who are not Christian, I dont force them to wear the patch or to memorize scripture. All I ask is they listen, learn, and focus 
on their training and if Jesus can be a part of it, better for them. 

Now I dont know how he is advertizing this Dojo, but it seems he has 
an identity crisis to deal with. He either totally becomes a Christian Dojo or goes back to teaching as before. 

Although I do think you are misunderstanding the use of the word "church" 
in the greek language used to write the New Testament the word used was "ekklesia" meaning:

(strongs concordance) 
translates as church 115 times, and assembly three times. 
*1* a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. 
1a an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating. 
1b the assembly of the Israelites. 
1c any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously. 
1d in a Christian sense. 
_1d1_ an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting. 
_1d2_ a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for orders sake. 

It all basicly boils down to: who are you and why do you want to study the martial arts? 
secondly, do you want "religion" mixed in with your training? 
although I think that there is more here than you are leading on to, deeper issues of conviction and faith. But I will leave you to deliberate those issues on your own unless you would like to talk about them. 

My humble and Ignorant .02 cents, 

Chris  




Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.
> 
> Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.
> ...


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## Yondanchris (Aug 2, 2010)

Good point, 

  almost all martial arts patches, much less the history and inception are devoid of anything "religious". I agree that when Christians want to integrate their faith with anything, the world makes a big deal about it. 

Chris 



K831 said:


> I have rarely seen a patch for any studio that didn't carry with it some religious connotation, mythology, ideology, ethic etc.... for some reason when Christians do it, it's a big deal.
> 
> Sounds like our instructor was pretty legit from the beginning about his faith, and his level of commitment to it, so I don't think you have any cause to be upset with his redesign of the patch. I think it is his school, and he can infuse his religion as much, or as little, as he chooses.
> 
> ...


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## Lionsroar (Jan 28, 2011)

I am the Shidoshi and senior student at the Dojo that "Shinobi Teikiatsu" is talking about in this thread. We have known about this rant for some time now and I have struggled with whether or not to even address the issues he has brought up here. It wasn't until his recent visit with us to "drop in and say hi" that I decided it was time to set the record straight about what he is claiming.

I am not the owner of the Dojo or the Shihan. I am Sensei's senior student the Shidoshi at the Austin branch. I am incharge of all the happenings with the school.

"Shinobi Teikiatsu" trained with us for about 3 yrs on and off. He always seemed to be a nice kid and never gave us any trouble and seemed to enjoy training. If I'm not mistaken I believe he was a 6th or 7th kyu when he left training. When he joined the Dojo we were in the transition period of us seperating from the Bujinkan. "Shinobi Teikiatsu" never really had any ties with the Bujinkan org.

I was in Japan when Sensei was awarded his Shihan rank and I was there when Soke Hatsumi gave sensei his blessing to seperate from the Bujinkan. This is not an uncommon practice for Hatsumi especially with his trusted students. Sensei was a personal student of Soke Hatsumi as well as Naguchi. Hatsumi knew of sensei's Christian background and beliefs and gave us his Blessing to continue teaching Budo Taijutsu and the ninja traditions.

Sensei came to Christ years ago and could no longer continue on in the Shinto/Buddhist teachings ingrainded in the higher levels of training in the art. So he choose to seperate himself out.  We still teach all combat aspects of Budo Taijutsu, none of that has changed. We have never pushed any Christian beliefs on any of our students. Students are free to practice their beliefs and train with us with no discrimination. Yes we do incorporate Christian values in the dojo. Big deal we replaced the demon worship with the 10 Commandments.....

Sensei got rid of the Bujinkan patch and replaced it with a new school patch. Last I checked it's his school he can if he wants.  Again I need to remind all that "Shinobi Teikiatsu" never really had any ties or attachments to the Bujinkan. I find it interesting that he seemed to have such an issue with the patch and never brought it up to me or to Sensei....  Infact he never spoke to us about any concerns he had about the dojo. He let us know he was not going to train any longer via email due to "financial" reasons and school priorities.....

We are a highly recognized Budo Taijutsu school and high recommend in the Bujinkan community. We are very carefull in our business practicies and do our deligence in maintaining all levels of the law and practicing upstanding business practices.

As far as "Shinobi Teikiatsu" comment as to us not being a "real" martial arts school but more of a hang out, I'll allow the Special Ops, Marine Recon, Swat, CIA and FBI agents we train out side of the Dojo address that.

I do insist if anyone has any questions or concerns please don't hesitate to contact me or send me a message. And I do encourage all to check us out sometime, we are always looking for good hearted students eager to train.

Shidoshi


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 28, 2011)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.
> 
> Now, I've never been one to complain about him making analogies to the bible during training, or anything of the like, and as said I AM a Christian and I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, but I am NOT looking for a church. I feel that these patches my sensei is commanding us to wear force me to scream that I believe in this, which I don't believe is right, because we have several people in training who are NOT Christian, who are liberals that are already alienated enough by Sensei's beliefs, but forcing them to wear a patch saying they believe in a God they may or may not believe in is, I believe, wrong.
> ...


Let me ask you this... do you take as much time to consider the random band or product you advertise on one of your T-shirts?
Sean


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## 72ronin (Jan 28, 2011)

Lionsroar said:


> Yes we do incorporate Christian values in the dojo. Big deal we replaced the demon worship with the 10 Commandments.....
> 
> Sensei got rid of the Bujinkan patch and replaced it with a new school patch. Last I checked it's his school he can if he wants. Again I need to remind all that "Shinobi Teikiatsu" never really had any ties or attachments to the Bujinkan. I find it interesting that he seemed to have such an issue with the patch and never brought it up to me or to Sensei.... Infact he never spoke to us about any concerns he had about the dojo. He let us know he was not going to train any longer via email due to "financial" reasons and school priorities.....
> 
> Shidoshi


 
"Demon worship"?..

Oh, and he did inform you of his concerns, you wrote it right there, "school priorities". Did you bother to return e-mail.. 

I also dont think it was necesary to attempt to belittle Shinobi Teikiatsu by exposing his rank etc, IMO Three years is quite an investment. In fact, you come across a little... self rightous.

You have only served to give the impresion that, i would say you are soon to become something of a discriminatory group, only advertising through the churches for "good hearted folks".


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## jks9199 (Jan 28, 2011)

Lionsroar -- thanks for stopping by and sharing your view.

Before I tripped over my own words, I went back and checked what I said, way back on the first page.  (Did you take a bit of time to read all 11 pages of this thread?  Lots of interesting stuff there, and I'd really appreciate your take on some of the things people brought up...)

I stand by them.  Your teacher has every right to take his training and the class he leads in the direction he believes is right, but he needs to be honest about it.  I said that, as a minister, I expect his faith to be a part of all he does.  It's very possible that more religion sneaks into his training than you realize.  I think your comment here about replace "demon worship with the 10 Commandments" is a telling example.  I don't think anyone here questioned your teacher's qualifications or authority to teach and lead the training in the path he believes is right.  But he has to be careful that he fully and openly presents the religious emphasis, if present, in the training.  Has the school become a clique of the church?  Has everyone who's not part of the church left?  It's not a problem -- if he doesn't see it as one.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 28, 2011)

Why wait 5 months after people stopped posting about it to make a comment? I forgot all about this until just now.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 28, 2011)

You know it is real easy for people to hide behind the computer screen and air heir dirty laundry online with a screen name and a title. Personally I believe this was dead in the water thread and should have been left that way.


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## Cirdan (Jan 29, 2011)

Tell me more about this demon worship...


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## jthomas1600 (Jan 29, 2011)

Brandon Fisher said:


> You know it is real easy for people to hide behind the computer screen and air heir dirty laundry online with a screen name and a title. Personally I believe this was dead in the water thread and should have been left that way.



You're last statement is likely true, but since this has been revived and I missed it the first time, I'll chime in. 

I'm a Christian and it's a big part of who I am. If there were a quality Christian school where I lived I would check it out. That said, my only experience with "Christian" martial arts was a bad one. Personally I really like the school I train at now. It is completely religiously neutral. Nothing the instructor says or teaches contradicts with what I believe. My kids train with me and there is no problem with the school eroding the Christian values I try to teach them. I'm confidant that a Muslim, Hindu, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, or atheist etc. etc. would be equally comfortable training here. In my mind you can't ask for much more than that.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 29, 2011)

Cirdan said:


> Tell me more about this demon worship...


I am going to guess that a Christian might take offense at the use of the Dragon as a symbol of mastery, and equate that with being demonic, but then again, anything outside the western concept of truth could also be considered demonic; so, just about anything Eastern is suspect.
Sean


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## Tez3 (Jan 29, 2011)

The demon bit got me too. As a very definite non Christian does that mean everything outside Christianity is demonised too?


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## Cirdan (Jan 29, 2011)

They must have been granted some infernal powers in this demon worshipping Dojo. I want to know what they were!


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 29, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> The demon bit got me too. As a very definite non Christian does that mean everything outside Christianity is demonised too?



The demon bit was a bit over the top, and imo the sign of a fundamentalist.
He says everybody is welcome, but if they equate all non-christian influences as 'demonic', I don't think they'd feel welcome at all.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 29, 2011)

Religious faith is not is not like a jacket you put on everyday when you go out, though there are those that treat it so, it is something that you wrap yourself in 24/7. That being said if the subtlety of the eastern traditions you are exposed to at MA is that great of a threat to your beliefs, perhaps your beliefs werent as strong as you believed them to be to begin with. Perhaps that says something about the validity of your own convictions?

You cant catch homosexuality from dealing with a gay person, you cant be infected with veganism by talking with a vegan, nor can you contract atheism or buddhism by being around atheism or buddhism. 

Its a free country you live in, believe as you wish, run your business as you wish, live your life as you wish, but I for one see serious flaws in the logic you use to build the bricks in your world.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 29, 2011)

I can respect people standing by their principles. But what I find odd is that the 'demonic' stuff was not a problem for the 20 or so years it took to him to become a shihan, and it didn't bother him when he took the godan test.

Only after he becomes a shihan, that is the moment where he _'really can't put up anymore'_ (what a coincidence) and creates 'Christian Ninjutsu' where all people are 'welcome', as long as they don't mind being told that they're involved with 'demonic stuff' if they're not into Christianity but into e.g. shinto or buddhism.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 29, 2011)

I take high doses of "anti-cootie" shots when dealing with different faiths. So far, they seem to have worked, in that no lightning bolts, locust plagues, of tentacled evils have shown up and sited me.  Not too sure about all this snow though....haven't figured out which faith has a white cold hell.


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## Blade96 (Jan 29, 2011)

i can has anti cootie recipe bob?


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## Cirdan (Jan 29, 2011)

You need to make friends with the norse gods my friend. Here, have some raw horse meat. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






Bob Hubbard said:


> I take high doses of "anti-cootie" shots when dealing with different faiths. So far, they seem to have worked, in that no lightning bolts, locust plagues, of tentacled evils have shown up and sited me. Not too sure about all this snow though....*haven't figured out which faith has a white cold hell.*


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 29, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> i can has anti cootie recipe bob?


It's the same recipe preteen boys use to keep girl cooties away, and vise versa.


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## Cirdan (Jan 29, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It's the same recipe preteen boys use to keep girl cooties away, and vise versa.


 
Now that explains why it works on the other wuss gods, but not Odin, Thor and Freya.


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## Blade96 (Jan 29, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It's the same recipe preteen boys use to keep girl cooties away, and vise versa.



Okey dokeys.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 30, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> ...haven't figured out which faith has a white cold hell.


 
In Dante's Inferno, the 9th circle of hell is a frozen wasteland where traitors go. Lucifer himself is stuck in a giant block of ice.

...of course that's not really what the cannoncal concept of hell is in christianity.


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## Tez3 (Jan 30, 2011)

Cirdan said:


> Now that explains why it works on the other wuss gods, but not Odin, Thor and Freya.


 
They still lurk around where I live , it was a big Viking settlement here. York used to be Jorvik and sixty per cent of the place names here are Norse as are many of the local dialect words but most of all you should see the locals all big, strapping blondes (and that's just the women)


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 30, 2011)

My kids were baptized old style, by a druid. A real one. Belgium's only one for that matter.
It was a beautiful ceremony.

I did the test and if Dante was right, I go to limbo, the place of the virtuous unbelievers.
I am still hoping that the pagan stuff is right though. I look quite forward to an afterlife of fighting, feasting, and fornication with red headed valkyries


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## Balrog (Jan 30, 2011)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> By the Christian virus.
> Now, I am a Christian, albeit a non practicing one, and I've never had anything against the fact that my Sensei is ALSO a minister who runs his own church (which most of the people at my dojo attend.) That was, however, until he made the announcement that we would now be assigned patches that had the kanji for "Army of the Cross" or an eagle with a cross infront of it.



Back to the OP from two years ago.  Someone sent me this in an email a while back.  It sounds harsh at first, but then the truth usually is.  Once you read it a couple of times, it's amazing how much basic common sense is in it.  It sounds like you need to share it with your instructor.

Warning - a lot of people will probably find this offensive, so I'm spoilering it with extra lines so that it doesn't show immediately:

V
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Having a religion is like having a penis.  You can be as proud of it as you want to be, but don't wave it around in public and don't try to shove it down other people's throats.


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## Archangel M (Jan 30, 2011)

This is a private enterprise...not a governmental one. Live with it or leave and find a dojo that pleases you.

On a separate topic. I find Westerns who adhere to Eastern philosophies/religions as part of their martial art sort of silly/pretentious/fantasy fulfillment. IMO many martial fantasist's "put on" the eastern religion like they do a Gi.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 30, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> This is a private enterprise...not a governmental one. Live with it or leave and find a dojo that pleases you.
> 
> On a separate topic. I find Westerns who adhere to Eastern philosophies/religions as part of their martial art sort of silly/pretentious/fantasy fulfillment. IMO many martial fantasist's "put on" the eastern religion like they do a Gi.



You have a good point.

But in traditional Japanese arts, shinto or buddhism is often part of the underlying concepts that define the art. Ripping that out actually detracts from the arts because you lose part of the philosophy that helps you put things into their context. Those parts are in there not for the religious experience. This is what westerners sometimes fail to accept.

Regardless of my own personal beliefs, I make no problems about those elements because I don't have to believe in them. I just have to know about them and understand what they mean in that given context.


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## Archangel M (Jan 30, 2011)

If you want to subscribe to the "absorbing the culture" of your art I guess thats fine. But IMO I still think that a large chunk of that crowd are "Orientalophiles" who are looking for some sort of fulfillment out of being "different" and subscribing to the exotic simply to set themselves apart.

My .02 YMMV.


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## Kacey (Jan 30, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> If you want to subscribe to the "absorbing the culture" of your art I guess thats fine. But IMO I still think that a large chunk of that crowd are "Orientalophiles" who are looking for some sort of fulfillment out of being "different" and subscribing to the exotic simply to set themselves apart.
> 
> My .02 YMMV.



There's that... there are also a lot of people who get into a martial art, discover they like it, and want to immerse themselves into their new obsession.  Some of them maintain it for the long run - but most just subsume those parts that suit them into their world view and move on.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 30, 2011)

And many concepts in Oriental religions are cool.  I can dig it and if you don't want to, I'm okay with that.


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## Archangel M (Jan 30, 2011)

I have nothing against Eastern religions, or MA'ists who want to dabble in them. 

I think that the hoopla over X-tian based dojos is sort of a tempest in a tea pot. A dojo in the US with a Christian flavor is an issue while Orientalism is "cool"? Theres enough room for all flavors IMO. Pick the one you like.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 30, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> I have nothing against Eastern religions, or MA'ists who want to dabble in them.
> 
> I think that the hoopla over X-tian based dojos is sort of a tempest in a tea pot. A dojo in the US with a Christian flavor is an issue while Orientalism is "cool"? Theres enough room for all flavors IMO. Pick the one you like.



Absolutely, and if there are no other choices, live with it or don't practice.  Personally, I've trained at "Christian" dojos and there was no issues.  I don't broadcast that I'm an atheist and I can put my hands together and speak words to "imaginary" things in the sky if that's what is required because it just doesn't affect me.  There's no need to be militant and it's probably far more wise to be a religious chameleon, IMO.


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## Kacey (Jan 30, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> Absolutely, and if there are no other choices, live with it or don't practice.  Personally, I've trained at "Christian" dojos and there was no issues.  I don't broadcast that I'm an atheist and I can put my hands together and speak words to "imaginary" things in the sky if that's what is required because it just doesn't affect me.  There's no need to be militant and it's probably far more wise to be a religious chameleon, IMO.



At their roots, most religions are a means to transmit moral values - and most have the same moral values, things like "honor your parents", "don't murder", "treat others the way you want to be treated".  I have no problem with morality as part of martial arts instruction; I think that if you're going to teach someone how to injure people, you should teach them when such a response is appropriate, at least on the level of "if someone calls you a name, you shouldn't physically attack them, but if a stranger tries to make you go somewhere against your will, anything goes".

I have no problems with Christian dojangs as long as they inform people  that's what they are up front.  Being Jewish, I tend to stay out of  them; I have no problem with other religions, but I get preached at  enough about the state of my soul/afterlife/beliefs/etc. without  deliberately going somewhere that proselytizes.


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## Wild Bill (Jan 30, 2011)

Here is something to think about. If I am reading right this guy was a paying member of the school for three years. If I had trained in an art for three years, gaining rank, and expecting to continue my training in a specific art under a specific organization, I would feel ripped off if all of a sudden the instructor split to do his own thing. What happens if he can't find another ninja school that will accept his rank?  Its not like TKD where there is a school on every corner.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 30, 2011)

If the other schools is a Bujinkan dojo, his rank should transfer without a problem into any other Bujinkan dojo, although there might be practical problems, considering that Bujinkan dojos have wildly varying grade requirements. And to any other ninjutsu organization he'd have to start over since rank is non transferrable.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

Wild Bill said:


> Here is something to think about. If I am reading right this guy was a paying member of the school for three years. If I had trained in an art for three years, gaining rank, and expecting to continue my training in a specific art under a specific organization, I would feel ripped off if all of a sudden the instructor split to do his own thing. What happens if he can't find another ninja school that will accept his rank? Its not like TKD where there is a school on every corner.


Schools split from organizations all the time. I suspect that the OP would not have cared had it been for non religious reasons. His big issue seemed to be wearing the patch.

It's a school patch. This whole thread is a mountain out of molehill. People are way too sensitive and need to get over themselves. 

As for being ripped off, you pay for lessons and instruction in ninjutsu. So long as the sensei is delivering lessons and instruction in ninjutsu, he is fulfilling his end of the business arrangement. If three years into it, the OP found that the instruction had declined then find a new place to train. That is what we all do when the quality of any institution declines or when their product changes.

If you've been eating at Hamburger Hamlet for the past three years and they announce that due to health concerns about beef, all burgers will be vegan veggie burgers henceforth and changes their logo to reflect the new menu, you haven't been ripped off. You've gotten three years of great hamburgers. You paid for them, they prepared them. If you don't like the idea of a non-beef hamburger, then go down the road to Five Guys and call it a day. 

Unless the student was locked into some kind of contract that prevents him from cessation of patronage, which I don't believe he ever metioned, then he needs to simply go elsewhere. If he refuses to do so, then he's just subjecting himself to it anyway and whining. 

And maybe he did leave. Given the age of this thread, he may well be a green belt in another art by now.

As far as rank is concerned, he's a green belt.  I'm not sure how far into the system that takes him, but in most schools, it isn't all that far and chances are, his rank would be accepted at another X-Kan school.  If not, he should find another JMA school that teaches to his liking.  Sometimes the product you want isn't readily available in very many places.  If you don't like the place that is providing the product and you cannot find it elsewhere, then sometimes, you end up with another product.  Essentially, if Our Lady of Nazorean Ninjutsu is the only Ninjutsu school in town, you train there if you want to train Ninjutsu in town.  If the school's patch and churchy atmosphere bug you that much then don't train there.

Daniel
Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> This is a private enterprise...not a governmental one. Live with it or leave and find a dojo that pleases you.
> 
> On a separate topic. I find Westerns who adhere to Eastern philosophies/religions as part of their martial art sort of silly/pretentious/fantasy fulfillment. IMO many martial fantasist's "put on" the eastern religion like they do a Gi.


I believe they call this larping.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I can respect people standing by their principles. But what I find odd is that the 'demonic' stuff was not a problem for the 20 or so years it took to him to become a shihan, and it didn't bother him when he took the godan test.
> 
> Only after he becomes a shihan, that is the moment where he _'really can't put up anymore'_ (what a coincidence) and creates 'Christian Ninjutsu' where all people are 'welcome', as long as they don't mind being told that they're involved with 'demonic stuff' if they're not into Christianity but into e.g. shinto or buddhism.


His timing of doing so is honestly irrelevant.  If he didn't experience his conversion until twenty years or so into his training, then so be it.  But regardless, it is unimportant.

If the OP doesn't like the direction that the school is going, then its time for him/her to find a new school.  Plain and simple.  

There have been some changes in direction at the location where I train, albeit not religious in nature.  I'm not going to air it on the internet.  If I am to decide that the kwanjang is taking the school in a direction that I do not wish to go, then I will bow, thank him for eight years of great classes and go train elsewhere, wishing him the best in his endeavor.  The reasons for the change, timing of the change, etc. are unimportant.  I either am staying and embracing (or putting up with) the changes or I am leaving.  One of the two.  If I choose to stay, then I will be respectful and keep the school's business within the school.  

Daniel


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## Lionsroar (Jan 31, 2011)

I am going to post this as my only reply on this thread to clear up further confusion and perhaps answer a few questions some of you have brought up since my orig response.

In his reasons for leaving the dojo he gave us he attributed them to financial short comings and school priorities.  The school priority issues were not the dojo but infact school as in his classes in his high school.

I can't stress enough again that he was never a part of the Bujinkan org, when he started training we had already started taking the steps to seperate from the Bujinkan. So some of your arguments about him being dis-heartend or feeling rippped off because of the tranistion is a mute point.  Please also take to heart that Soke Hatsumi gave us his blessing to take the steps to move away from the Bujinkan. Also remember that the Bujinkan is a recognized religion.

As far as demon worship goes, anyone who trains in the 9 ryu of the Bujinkan are well aware of the fact that channeling demonic entities is a foundimental part of the higher techniques. In fact in most of Hatsumi's teachings, books, videos ect he openly discusses how he invites demons in to him to perform certain techniques and infact encourages and teaches us to do the same. Keep in mind I have trained at the Hombu dojo in Japan and seen this first hand as has anyone else who frequents there.

I have not nor have we ever had any short comings or a falling out with the Bujinkan org since the break. We are permitted by Soke to teach the 9 ryu of Budo Taijutsu. We are an open dojo and encourage all to check us out and  invite all to consider training. We DO NOT descriminate others in their religious beliefs or followings, we simply replaced Shinto and Buddhism with Christian values. We are a highly accredited school with students world wide and in several law enforcement agencies, special ops and so on...

I also want it to be known that the only reason I decided to put a response on this thread was because the student that started this discussion took the position that he felt he was being discriminated against or looked down upon when infact he not once came to myself or anyother instructor to voice his concerns. Had he, like we always have in the past, I'm sure we could have worked things out with him. It was his choice to take his concerns to a public forum instead of coming directly to an instructor and talking to us in person about things.  He decided to leave by sending a brief email and then come here and talk about how his dojo is "infected by the christian virus...."

I do appreciate everyones feed back and positions on the matter, however.

kind regards


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

Lionsroar said:


> As far as demon worship goes, anyone who trains in the 9 ryu of the Bujinkan are well aware of the fact that channeling demonic entities is a foundimental part of the higher techniques. In fact in most of Hatsumi's teachings, books, videos ect he openly discusses how he invites demons in to him to perform certain techniques and infact encourages and teaches us to do the same. Keep in mind I have trained at the Hombu dojo in Japan and seen this first hand as has anyone else who frequents there.


I appreciate your response and offering the school's perspective. As for those who feel that you've come on and belittled him? Well, the OP took the step of starting this thread and presenting the school in a negative light, so I don't feel that you are belittling him

I quoted the above part because it is the only thing that I wanted clarification on. Not being a practitioner of ninjutsu or a Bujinkan member, do people who train in those nine ryu consider what they do as "channeling demonic entities" or do they consider it using ki or some other description? If so, then they don't "know" and may strongly disagree with your characterization.

Also, on what basis do you determine that what they are doing is channeling of demonic entities? No scripture and verse or 'my sensei told me so' in substitution of an answer, please; I want to know how *you* determine that what they are doing is demonic.  

Daniel


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 31, 2011)

Lionsroar said:


> Also remember that the Bujinkan is a recognized religion.


 
This is not the first time I've heard this, but it doesn't make any sense to me. The bujinkan is a martial arts organization. There may be some Buddhist, Shinto, and Mikyo teachings involved but that doesn't really make it a religion does it? Isn't it more of an organization that agrees with specific spiritual beliefs just like your own organization?






Lionsroar said:


> As far as demon worship goes, anyone who trains in the 9 ryu of the Bujinkan are well aware of the fact that channeling demonic entities is a foundimental part of the higher techniques. In fact in most of Hatsumi's teachings, books, videos ect he openly discusses how he invites demons in to him to perform certain techniques and infact encourages and teaches us to do the same. Keep in mind I have trained at the Hombu dojo in Japan and seen this first hand as has anyone else who frequents there.


 
The Japanese concept of demons and gods are far different than the Judeo-Christian concept of such beings. It's not like they are channeling Beelzebub. As a Christian myself I can find why you wouldn't agree with certain spiritual ideas from Japan, but Hatsumi summoning a demon to himself in my mind is like me imagining myself turning into the incredible hulk so I feel strong enough to knock a person on his butt. 



Lionsroar said:


> I have not nor have we ever had any short comings or a falling out with the Bujinkan org since the break. We are permitted by Soke to teach the 9 ryu of Budo Taijutsu. We are an open dojo and encourage all to check us out and invite all to consider training. We DO NOT descriminate others in their religious beliefs or followings, we simply replaced Shinto and Buddhism with Christian values. We are a highly accredited school with students world wide and in several law enforcement agencies, special ops and so on...
> 
> I also want it to be known that the only reason I decided to put a response on this thread was because the student that started this discussion took the position that he felt he was being discriminated against or looked down upon when infact he not once came to myself or anyother instructor to voice his concerns. Had he, like we always have in the past, I'm sure we could have worked things out with him. It was his choice to take his concerns to a public forum instead of coming directly to an instructor and talking to us in person about things. He decided to leave by sending a brief email and then come here and talk about how his dojo is "infected by the christian virus...."
> 
> ...


 
I, for one, don't question your training, your effectivness, or your morals. You have given me no reason question your motives. What you do is your business and I have no problem with it. High school kids (and many adults) tend to overreact to anything they feel threatens their perception of the world. Bringing in a religious compontent whether Buddhist, Christian, or whatever will always make some people uncomfortable no matter what.

Personally I was a little offended by the OP's talk of a "Christian virus" as if we are some kind of poison that must be cleansed from the earth, but whatever. I shouldn't be concerned with what one teenager thinks and I don't think you should be either.

If you train well and people like what you do and you are an honest person, then things will work out fine and no amount of internet babble will change that.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> This is not the first time I've heard this, but it doesn't make any sense to me. The bujinkan is a martial arts organization. There may be some Buddhist, Shinto, and Mikyo teachings involved but that doesn't really make it a religion does it? Isn't it more of an organization that agrees with specific spiritual beliefs just like your own organization?


I belive that Hatsumi had it clasified as a religion due to some peculiarities in Japanese tax laws.

There is a thread from about two years ago on the topic here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72041

Daniel


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## Lionsroar (Jan 31, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I appreciate your response and offering the school's perspective. As for those who feel that you've come on and belittled him? Well, the OP took the step of starting this thread and presenting the school in a negative light, so I don't feel that you are belittling him
> 
> I quoted the above part because it is the only thing that I wanted clarification on. Not being a practitioner of ninjutsu or a Bujinkan member, do people who train in those nine ryu consider what they do as "channeling demonic entities" or do they consider it using ki or some other description? If so, then they don't "know" and may strongly disagree with your characterization.
> 
> ...


 
Yes he, "Soke" says verbatum that he is channeling demons. Also read any of his liturature, its in there in black and white. Heck take it a step further... one of the 9 ryu actually is called the 9 Demon Schools.  When performing the Kuji and Juji you  are calling apon and channel demonic spirits to open portals.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 31, 2011)

Yes but a demon in japan is nothing more than a spiritual concept of something with a lot of power.

In America we have the "spirit of freedom" that doesn't mean we channel an actual being that exists when we talk about freedom. Demons, gods, kami are all ideological concepts. They shouldn't be taken so literally I think.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

Lionsroar said:


> Yes he, "Soke" says verbatum that he is channeling demons. Also read any of his liturature, its in there in black and white. Heck take it a step further... one of the 9 ryu actually is called the 9 Demon Schools. When performing the Kuji and Juji you are calling apon and channel demonic spirits to open portals.


If that's what he says (if it isn't then I'll leave it to some one familiar with the soke's writings to debate you on it), then that's what it is.  And that would be enough for me personally to bow to the soke and respectfully request to break off... which is what your sensei apparently did and apparently was given leave to do by the soke.  No harm no foul in my opinion.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Yes but a demon in japan is nothing more than a spiritual concept of something with a lot of power.
> 
> In America we have the "spirit of freedom" that doesn't mean we channel an actual being that exists when we talk about freedom. Demons, gods, kami are all ideological concepts. They shouldn't be taken so literally I think.


Different strokes for different folks. I still don't see any real issue with the sensei breaking off. His school, his rule. From what the OP indicated, the majority of the other students seemed pretty okay with it.  

I am curious as to how it all shook out ultimately.   

Daniel


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## kiai (Jan 31, 2011)

If I seriously, deep down believed in any kind of religion, I'd see no problem intermingling it with other areas of my life, even martial arts - because the divinity of what the belief entails far supersedes anything existent, tangibly or conceptually, in our reality.

I'd hazard a guess that most religious people aren't truly committed to their belief deep down - otherwise everybody would be doing the same, and living their life in with absolute discipline and asceticism.  It's one thing to "believe" in something (which can avert certain existential fears/uncertainties), and to actually act on it 100%, with total discipline and asceticism.  I'd hypothesise that religion is primarily used superficially by people, pretty deep down into the psyche, as a psychological self-defense mechanism to avert these existential fears.  I personally believe that if most people, deep down, felt their beliefs to be absolutely true, then everybody would be living extremely ascetically: few do this.  Despite my disagreement with their beliefs, I at least harbour a respect for their sincerity, and lack of religious hypocrisy common amongst many.  Of course, this depends on the religious doctrine in question - but most people I allude to are people "following" sufficiently strict doctrines.

That's my reasoning when it comes to *personally* intermingling religion and martial arts, despite being atheistically-minded myself.  But when it comes to forcing such intermingling onto *others* - that's when I seriously disagree.  How irresponsible of the sensei.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

kiai said:


> I'd hazard a guess that most religious people aren't truly committed to their belief deep down - otherwise everybody would be doing the same, and living their life in with absolute discipline and asceticism. It's one thing to "believe" in something (which can avert certain existential fears/uncertainties), and to actually act on it 100%, with total discipline and asceticism.


You are confusing commitment with discipline and asceticism. Not all religions mandate or even promote asceticism. And while to live an ascetic life requires a degree of discipline, being disciplined does not automatically equate to commitment to belief.

Then there is the question of how you define the term 'religious.' I hear plenty say that they are 'spiritual but not religious' while others use the terms interchangeably.



kiai said:


> I'd hypothesise that religion is primarily used superficially by people, pretty deep down into the psyche, as a psychological self-defense mechanism to avert these existential fears. I personally believe that if most people, deep down, felt their beliefs to be absolutely true, then everybody would be living extremely ascetically: few do this.


Not if your religion is not centered around asceticism. In some religions, it is optional. In others, not a factor at all. And asceticism has really nothing to do with use of religion as a psychological self defense mechanism.

I do disagree regarding the religious self defense mechanism in most people (though certainly in some). Most people use religion as a social club. They go to church because it is the social norm, what they are used to, and because they feel that they 'should' without really thinking very much about why. It is part of western societal norms of decency that are several centuries old. It is assumed that if you go to church, you are 'better than' one who does not. Which isn't really true, given that mafia hitmen can be quite 'religious', but it is a cultural norm.

Outside of religious obligations, many religions offer answers to questions that may not be a daily concern to people, but which people kind of like to 'know' the answer to on some basic level. Also, religion can (depending on the religion) provide vindication for things that we see no vindication for; 'he may have gotten away with what he did to that girl, but there'll be a final judgement and he'll receive his just punishment.'



kiai said:


> Despite my disagreement with their beliefs, I at least harbour a respect for their sincerity, and lack of religious hypocrisy common amongst many. Of course, this depends on the religious doctrine in question - but most people I allude to are people "following" sufficiently strict doctrines.


Strictness within a religion is not always uniform. There are many Christian denominations that vary greatly in that regard, each citing scripture and verse to support their level of strictness. I am sure that there is a similar amount of variance in other religions.



kiai said:


> That's my reasoning when it comes to *personally* intermingling religion and martial arts, despite being atheistically-minded myself. But when it comes to forcing such intermingling onto *others* - that's when I seriously disagree. How irresponsible of the sensei.


I withhold judging the sensei mainly because I suspect that there is more to the story than we are getting. 

Daniel


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## kiai (Jan 31, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not all religions mandate or even promote asceticism. And while to live an ascetic life requires a degree of discipline, being disciplined does not automatically equate to commitment to belief.



I agree: like I said, it depends on the religious doctrines in question.  But my main point generalised was that *most* religions out there *do* promote (from 'divine sources')
certain discipline/asceticism.  It's the selective memory of most followers that I find hypocritical - remembering all of the good things that the doctrine will bring to them (a utopic heaven and immortality), and quietly forgetting or extremely toning down all of uncomfortable elements (be it abstinence from drinking, drugs & materialism; philanthropy, etc.).



> And asceticism has really nothing to do with use of religion as a psychological self defense mechanism.



Agreed again - my point is that asceticism should be practised if the doctrine is fully believed (for most of the doctrines *do* promote this, to some degree - which is disproportionately followed by most "followers")



> I do disagree regarding the religious self defense mechanism in most people (though certainly in some). Most people use religion as a social club. They go to church because it is the social norm, what they are used to, and because they feel that they 'should' without really thinking very much about why. It is part of western societal norms of decency that are several centuries old. It is assumed that if you go to church, you are 'better than' one who does not. Which isn't really true, given that mafia hitmen can be quite 'religious', but it is a cultural norm.



This parallels my views, although I think social issues can't account for *all* of this, even if individually-speaking it is the most dominant factor. 

From most of what you say, actually, it seems to me that we are for the most part on the same page - most apparent differences between our points seem to stem from simply focusing on different aspects, and your taking of my previous post to be universally applicable, rather than a 'for the most part of'.

But personally speaking I think religion is based on such flimsy and subjective evidence, that there's no concrete and objective point of reference to discuss anything - it seems that as a result, the participants in most religious debates, despite apparently polar-opposite views, are actually 'violently agreeing'.  Consequently, religious debate universally heads nowhere.

For the record, I think a lot of the lifestyle tenets promoted by the various religions are most noble.  If religion lacked this unprovable 'divine' stuff, I think I would quite certainly subscribe.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 31, 2011)

The Bujinkan == religion thing is related to the fact that Hatsumi sensei has registered the Bujinkan as a religious organization (not as a religion). There were a couple of reasons, one of which was the Japanese tax law which are much more complex and strongly enforced than in most other countries. One of the tax issues was that his successor would have to pay hefty inheritance fees if Hatsumi wanted to pass on his collection of antique weapons, scrolls, etc. Given that traditional Japanese dojo typically have a kamidana (a small shinto shrine), and have some shinto or buddhism background, it was a sensible move because it was technically correct.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

kiai said:


> I agree: like I said, it depends on the religious doctrines in question. But my main point generalised was that *most* religions out there *do* promote (from 'divine sources')
> certain discipline/asceticism. It's the selective memory of most followers that I find hypocritical - remembering all of the good things that the doctrine will bring to them (a utopic heaven and immortality), and quietly forgetting or extremely toning down all of uncomfortable elements (be it abstinence from drinking, drugs & materialism; philanthropy, etc.).


Ah.  I see where you are coming from.  And yes, I agree.  I was thinking of asceticism more in the way that monks are ascetic.



kiai said:


> Agreed again - my point is that asceticism should be practised if the doctrine is fully believed (for most of the doctrines *do* promote this, to some degree - which is disproportionately followed by most "followers").


Again, I see where you are coming from.  



kiai said:


> But personally speaking I think religion is based on such flimsy and subjective evidence, that there's no concrete and objective point of reference to discuss anything - it seems that as a result, the participants in most religious debates, despite apparently polar-opposite views, are actually 'violently agreeing'. Consequently, religious debate universally heads nowhere.


Lol.  One of the reasons that I withdrew from participation on a religion forum.  Lack of productivity.



kiai said:


> For the record, I think a lot of the lifestyle tenets promoted by the various religions are most noble. If religion lacked this unprovable 'divine' stuff, I think I would quite certainly subscribe.


Too many people try to prove or disprove.  I just figure that a person believes as they do and leave it at that.  

Most lifestyle tenets are fairly universal across religions and are, divine aspects excepted, fairly universal with those who espouse no religion; nobody wants to be stolen from, murdered, cheated, or have an unfaithful spouse, and the idea of charitable work is generally well received.

Daniel


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 31, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Most lifestyle tenets are fairly universal across religions and are, divine aspects excepted, fairly universal with those who espouse no religion; nobody wants to be stolen from, murdered, cheated, or have an unfaithful spouse, and the idea of charitable work is generally well received.
> 
> Daniel



The biggest differences seem to have to do with the 'afterlife' option.
Will you have it, and if so, in what way, shape or form?

Personally I'd like to go to Valhalla.


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## Kacey (Jan 31, 2011)

kiai said:


> But when it comes to forcing such intermingling onto *others* - that's when I seriously disagree.  How irresponsible of the sensei.



If the instructor is open and up-front that the instructor's personal religious beliefs are being taught in addition to or as part of the curriculum, I have no problem with it - it's only when those beliefs are hidden within the curriculum and not identified by source that I have a problem.


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## Yondanchris (Jan 31, 2011)

Kacey said:


> If the instructor is open and up-front that the instructor's personal religious beliefs are being taught in addition to or as part of the curriculum, I have no problem with it - it's only when those beliefs are hidden within the curriculum and not identified by source that I have a problem.




The former (or first) is my policy, and is blatant in execution and emphasis in my Dojo!


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## Kacey (Jan 31, 2011)

Kacey said:


> If the instructor is open and up-front that the instructor's personal religious beliefs are being taught in addition to or as part of the curriculum, I have no problem with it - it's only when those beliefs are hidden within the curriculum and not identified by source that I have a problem.





Sandanchris said:


> The former (or first) is my policy, and is blatant in execution and emphasis in my Dojo!



As long as your students are aware from the beginning; then they are making an informed choice that that will be part of expectations.  It's the people who try to sneak it in that I have problems with.


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## Blade96 (Feb 1, 2011)

Kacey said:


> It's the people who try to sneak it in that I have problems with.



Ugh, i hate those too.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 1, 2011)

A few things stand out to me here.

I'm not really going to go too much into the "how much religion should be in a Martial Arts class thing, but there are a few questions I would have about exactly what it is you feel is being taught there (or not).



Lionsroar said:


> I can't stress enough again that he was never a part of the Bujinkan org, when he started training we had already started taking the steps to seperate from the Bujinkan. So some of your arguments about him being dis-heartend or feeling rippped off because of the tranistion is a mute point. Please also take to heart that Soke Hatsumi gave us his blessing to take the steps to move away from the Bujinkan. Also remember that the Bujinkan is a recognized religion.


 
As noted, the Bujinkan has become a Religious Organisation, not a religion itself. The concept of religion is rather different to the Western concept (this contrast between the Japanese approach and a more Westeren one will come into most of this post, by the way), but if you want a Western equivalent to compare it to, think of things like the Salvation Army, they are a charity organisation based around Christian ideals, but they are not a branch of Christianity itself.



Lionsroar said:


> As far as demon worship goes, anyone who trains in the 9 ryu of the Bujinkan are well aware of the fact that channeling demonic entities is a foundimental part of the higher techniques. In fact in most of Hatsumi's teachings, books, videos ect he openly discusses how he invites demons in to him to perform certain techniques and infact encourages and teaches us to do the same. Keep in mind I have trained at the Hombu dojo in Japan and seen this first hand as has anyone else who frequents there.


 
This entire section tells me that you have very little understanding of Japanese religious concepts, and are looking more at the idea that anything not fitting exactly the concepts put forth by your form of Christianity is considered "evil", or "heretical". Now, while that is fine, you may realise that this exact form of rhetoric may be exactly what Shinobi Teikatsu was railing against.

To begin with, if you are teaching a Japanese martial art, expect it to have Japanese concepts, not Western ones. And in order to teach the art itself, those aspects are there as part of the transmission of the art. Now, that doesn't mean that you need to believe in them, or attribute them any form of value, but they give context to a large number of other aspects. For instance, you teach Gyokko Ryu, yeah? You may or may not be aware, but the reason the thumbs are extended upwards in Shito Ken/Boshi Ken in that school (and carried over into aspects of Koto Ryu and Togakure Ryu) is because it is a way of ensuring your spiritual energy (your Ki) is being transmitted to Heaven (note: NOT a Christian Heaven concept here), creating a direct link between the Earth (that you're standing on), Man (yourself), and Heaven (where the energy, taken from the Earth [the world around you, to put it in Shinto terms], it sent through yourself, to Heaven). This is part of why the school was recategorised as Ten Chi Jin 10 years ago by Hatsumi Sensei. 

Now, are you going to continue teaching Gyokko Ryu kamae with that Shinto aspect inherrent in the actual forms themselves (as that gives the reason and context for the kamae), or are you going to change the art to remove that aspect (which would mean you are no longer teaching Gyokko Ryu)? There is no way to really teach the Japanese arts without understanding the Japanese context itself. When I teach Gyokko Ryu, for instance, I can point out why the Shito Ken is a major aspect of the Kamae of the Ryu... that doesn't mean that I necessarily believe it, just that I understand the context. Whether or not I believe it doesn't matter.

I haven't seen a single reference to Hatsumi "inviting Demons" to inhabit himself, what I have come across is him discussing the spirit of the schools themselves, closer to ancestor worship than demon worship there. You really seem to have missed the cultural aspects of such things, and being an Evangelistic Christian group, I'm not really that surprised, honestly. But you should realise that such a definate, black and white way of seeing things is far from the way many others would, and to try for a moment to see how someone else may read your words there.

Oh, and there's a major issue with your understanding of the Kukishin name as well, by the way. The second character is not necessarily "Demon", the "Ki" pronunciation can also be "Kami", making some branches Kukamishin Ryu, and that refers to "Spirits", or "powerful beings" rather than the Western concept of Demons. The character of "Oni" is actually a mis-use, so you know.



Lionsroar said:


> I have not nor have we ever had any short comings or a falling out with the Bujinkan org since the break. We are permitted by Soke to teach the 9 ryu of Budo Taijutsu. We are an open dojo and encourage all to check us out and invite all to consider training. We DO NOT descriminate others in their religious beliefs or followings, we simply replaced Shinto and Buddhism with Christian values. We are a highly accredited school with students world wide and in several law enforcement agencies, special ops and so on...


 
Out of interest, you make a few references to having permission to teach the 9 Ryu... really? That's quite different to having permission to continue teaching Budo Taijutsu, you know. And all 9? Including Gyokushin Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, and Gikan Ryu? That would put you in a unique postion there.... 

Simply replacing Shinto and Buddhist aspects with Christian ones doesn't really work, as the very ideas are quite different, and give very different contexts. And I'm not sure how the organisations and personnel you instruct outside of the dojo reflects on what happens inside the dojo. I'm rarely impressed by such resumes, honestly, I know how easy it can be to put such a list together.


----------



## Cirdan (Feb 1, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> I haven't seen a single reference to Hatsumi "inviting Demons" to inhabit himself, what I have come across is him discussing the spirit of the schools themselves, closer to ancestor worship than demon worship there. You really seem to have missed the cultural aspects of such things, and being an Evangelistic Christian group, I'm not really that surprised, honestly. But you should realise that such a definate, black and white way of seeing things is far from the way many others would, and to try for a moment to see how someone else may read your words there.


 
So no actual demon worship or students growing bat wings and breathing fire? Bah, got my hopes up there. Spirit of the schools my... can`t even call it black magic, not even _gray_ magic. Guess I am a demon worshipper myself too then since I bow to the room when entering the Dojo.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 1, 2011)

Cirdan said:


> So no actual demon worship or students growing bat wings and breathing fire? Bah, got my hopes up there. Spirit of the schools my... can`t even call it black magic, not even _gray_ magic. Guess I am a demon worshipper myself too then since I bow to the room when entering the Dojo.


 
 In the military we had to stand to attention before entering the enlisted mess, take off head wear and then enter. 
 Bowing, standing at attention shows respect, not worship of any kind.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 1, 2011)

Cirdan said:


> So no actual demon worship or students growing bat wings and breathing fire? Bah, got my hopes up there. Spirit of the schools my... can`t even call it black magic, not even _gray_ magic. Guess I am a demon worshipper myself too then since I bow to the room when entering the Dojo.



Genbukan is probably among the more 'religious' organizations, and even with us it remains on the background. We bow to the kamidana, and sometimes recite the ninja seishin before class.

Bowing to the kamidana is simply part of the expected etiquette. Noone is forced to believe in shintoism. To me it is no more special than the Christmas diorama which my youngest daughter made in school. The one she insists features the baby Jesus with his parents Maria and Elizabeth (it surprised me too ). But if Soke says it is part of the etiquette, that is how it is. And the ninja seishin is nothing more than an inspirational poem.

I guess if you want to feel offended, you'll easily find something to object to. Otoh if you are secure in your beliefs and willing to understand that following etiquette for the sake of harmony does not make you a heathen, then there is room enough to get along.

It is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Yondanchris (Feb 1, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I guess if you want to feel offended, you'll easily find something to object to. Otoh if you are secure in your beliefs and willing to understand that following etiquette for the sake of harmony does not make you a heathen, then there is room enough to get along.
> 
> It is in the eye of the beholder.




Amen, 

  Americans especially are offended at anything, and at the drop of a hat. 
In philosophy and developing a philosophical mindset you are asked to analyze and 
think through your paradigm or belief system. Most people of any belief rarely do this,
especially Christians...and it drives me nuts!! 

Thanks, 

Chris


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## Cirdan (Feb 1, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> In the military we had to stand to attention before entering the enlisted mess, take off head wear and then enter.
> Bowing, standing at attention shows respect, not worship of any kind.


 
Didn`t quite catch my irony? I was just thinking if someone calls talking about "the spirit of the school" demon worship, you can probably equate bowing to a room to idolatory too. There are people who refuse to bow to _anything_ because in their mind it is religious or subservient, I am not one of those.

Other than that I am just disappointed I can`t go learn some infernal powers.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 1, 2011)

Cirdan said:


> probably equate bowing to a room to idolatory too. There are people who refuse to bow to _anything_ because in their mind it is religious or subservient


And yet, those same people would think nothing of the conductor taking a bow at the end of a symphony and would not somehow misconstrue it as 'audience worship.'

Daniel


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 1, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And yet, those same people would think nothing of the conductor taking a bow at the end of a symphony and would not somehow misconstrue it as 'audience worship.'
> 
> Daniel



Actually, sex was sometimes an integral part of pagan ceremonies around these parts, a long time ago. Yet I am willing to bet that that doesn't prevent them from getting frisky with their spouses. 

Maybe we should tell them, ans ask if this means that they'll stop having sex. If they don't, then I'd want to know why they willingly engage in pagan rituals.


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## Tez3 (Feb 1, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And yet, those same people would think nothing of the conductor taking a bow at the end of a symphony and would not somehow misconstrue it as 'audience worship.'
> 
> Daniel


 
It's not so long ago that gentlemen bowing and ladies curtseying was considered polite behaviour in the west. It wasn't deemed subservient nor having any religious connotation just the polite thing to do when meeting someone and/or being introduced.
Read Jane Austen, Dickens, Trollope, Gaskell etc etc. In Europe I believe gentlemen bowing went on until the Second World War at least.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It's not so long ago that gentlemen bowing and ladies curtseying was considered polite behaviour in the west. It wasn't deemed subservient nor having any religious connotation just the polite thing to do when meeting someone and/or being introduced.
> Read Jane Austen, Dickens, Trollope, Gaskell etc etc. In Europe I believe gentlemen bowing went on until the Second World War at least.


Indeed.  

One of the problems that people run into is that they get into a myopia about certain things.  People who worry about bowing in an MA studio would likewise give no thought to watching Jane Eyre curtsey to Mister Rochester, nor him bow to her.  But put Jane and Mister Rochester in white pajamas and stick them in a scene with Ken and Ryu, and suddenly the same actions have religious overtones.

Generally, I find that people who worry about such trivialities are insecure in their faith on some level.

Daniel


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Indeed.
> 
> But put Jane and Mister Rochester in white pajamas and stick them in a scene with *Ken* and *Ryu*, and suddenly the same actions have religious overtones.
> Daniel


 
Stick Blanka in there and it becomes demonic!



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Indeed.
> Generally, I find that people who worry about such trivialities are insecure in their faith on some level.
> 
> Daniel


 
Agreed. I had a period of time where I found myself concerned about such things so guess what, I studied religion. I compared others with my own, did my best to look at things through the right cultural and historical context and reached a conclusion after years of soul searching and I still have questions that need investigation.

On a different note, ha anyone thought about how martial arts and religion share some very similar ideas? Both require intensive study to ensure you know what you are talking about. Both need to be tested with reality to see if what is taught makes sense in real life. And like religion, martial arts of different kinds have different paths that lead to the same conclusion, for example two seperate religions may identify moral laws that are universal to everyone (like don't murder or rape), and different martial arts may all have an arm bar or wrist lock.

IMO the differences for both religion and martial arts is how the teaching are applied and why they are applied that way.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> I haven't seen a single reference to Hatsumi "inviting Demons" to inhabit himself, what I have come across is him discussing the spirit of the schools themselves, closer to ancestor worship than demon worship there. You really seem to have missed the cultural aspects of such things, and being an Evangelistic Christian group, I'm not really that surprised, honestly. But you should realise that such a definate, black and white way of seeing things is far from the way many others would, and to try for a moment to see how someone else may read your words there.


I had said on one of my previous posts to Lionsroar essentially that 'if Hatsumi says that's what you're doing, then that is what it is.'

But does Hatsumi actually say that that is what he is doing?  Does Hatusmi invite anything to inhabit himself?  For the record, I am interested in knowing what his actual teaching is soley for being informed on the subject, not to debate it.  

For the record also, from a general Christian perspective, inviting anything other than God to inhabit one's body is generally considered a no-no, and spirits not of God are generally assumed to be demons.  I say generally because there may be some Christian denomination that deviates in this regard, and some Christians may also deviate from the norm in this regard as well.

Daniel


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## Yondanchris (Feb 4, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> For the record also, from a general Christian perspective,
> inviting anything other than God to inhabit one's body is generally considered a no-no,
> and spirits not of God are generally assumed to be demons.
> I say generally because there may be some Christian denomination that deviates in this regard,
> ...



Amen, 

 Needless to say this is a little off topic, but asking anything to inhabit yourself other than God is DANGEROUS! The story told earlier reminds me of a story in the Bible: 




(Matthew 8:28-34 NIV) 
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,  two demon&#8209;possessed men coming from the tombs met him. 
They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 
29 &#8220;What do you want with us, Son of God?&#8221; they shouted. &#8220;Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?&#8221;
30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 
31 The demons begged Jesus, &#8220;If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.&#8221;
32 He  said to them, &#8220;Go!&#8221; So they came out and went into the pigs, and the  whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the  water. 
33 Those  tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this,  including what had happened to the demon&#8209;possessed men. 
34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.


Three quick observations: 

- Men where in tombs....I wonder what they where doing?
- Demons knew who Jesus was, and obeyed his command! 
- Demons knew of their future judgment! 


Okay im off of my soap box now! There are many other passages we could look at but I chose this one for its simplicity! 
I have personally seen people possessed and they can be dangerous and downright scary! All one needs to do is watch a
few movies or youtube videos to see how true life stories become nightmares! 



Chris


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2011)

We tend not to have the demon thing, it's bad enough having Jewish mothers and mother in laws, what chance would a demon stand against them?

We have the odd Golem now and again, useful but clumsy.


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## oaktree (Feb 4, 2011)

I wonder if "channeling demons" is out of context.
 Like Fudo Myoo may be seen as a wraithful deity even demonic looking.
The idea of Fudoshin having a heart like Fudo means showing fearlessness.

I wonder what particular demon/demons Hatsumi was refering to. It's unsual not just in Martial arts but also in Shinto, Mikkyo to go channeling demons into yourself I have not read this so I am curious about it.

I do think the channeling demons in a literal sense is a mistranslation or out of context.
 I think it meant more showing fearlessness,wraithfulness than actual channeling demons.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 4, 2011)

Even more off topic, but allowing one invisible, imaginary being access to your body but not any of the others seems to me to be a little disrespectful.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 4, 2011)

Some of these beings may very well be imaginary, but there is one in particular I strongly believe in. So when it comes to something like a Tengu or other mythical creature, I can appreciate the symbollism without believing there is any real danger of being inhabited by actual evil spirits.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2011)

oaktree said:


> I wonder if "channeling demons" is out of context.
> Like Fudo Myoo may be seen as a wraithful deity even demonic looking.
> The idea of Fudoshin having a heart like Fudo means showing fearlessness.
> 
> ...


Which of course brings us back to making sure to know what someone is actually saying and talking about, which requires greater effort when the one saying something speaks a different language than your own.

Daniel


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## Chris Parker (Feb 5, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I had said on one of my previous posts to Lionsroar essentially that 'if Hatsumi says that's what you're doing, then that is what it is.'
> 
> But does Hatsumi actually say that that is what he is doing? Does Hatusmi invite anything to inhabit himself? For the record, I am interested in knowing what his actual teaching is soley for being informed on the subject, not to debate it.
> 
> ...


 
I have heard of Hatsumi talking about the Kami of the various Ryu-ha, as well as Tanemura. Tanemura has mentioned (in the old Panther video series) that when he teaches a particular Ryu-ha, he asks for permission from the spiritual ancestors (the warriors who went before him in the lineage) to teach the art correctly and well, ensuring that the students get the right feel of the art. I haven't ever heard of them "inviting" anything to "inhabit" them, though. The Shinto aspect that this relates to is that everything in nature and the world is attributed a "spirit", or Kami. This is not necessarily a deity, or anything similar, it is more recognising the inherent value in each different thing that exists (from a Christian point of view, it may be seen as recognising God in everything - although that's not really accurate either).



Sandanchris said:


> Amen,
> 
> Needless to say this is a little off topic, but asking anything to inhabit yourself other than God is DANGEROUS! The story told earlier reminds me of a story in the Bible:
> 
> ...


 
Okay, playing with fire here a bit, but I really don't see this as anything other than specious reasoning. Your argument comes down to a biblical passage from one of the Gospels (Matthew), and you are using that to demonstrate the idea of demonic possesion as a concrete thing, using this story as a factual piece of evidence. I would say that it fails on a number of levels for that.

A few quick observations:

- The Gospels were written up to a Century after Jesus' time, and are not definitive eye-witness accounts by any means whatsoever.
- The idea that a story, written many years, decades in fact, after Jesus had died is showing anything literally true is questionable, especially when you are looking to aspects of that story as factual without any other evidence to support (stating as fact the "Demons knew of their future judgment", "knew who Jesus was, and obeyed" are not to be considered credible accounts).
- Stories, such as this, do not have a purpose other than to be self-determining evidence for Christianity. Saying many years after the event (if it happened at all) that "Oh, they recognised him as the Son of God!" as evidence that he was is really the same as Ashida Kim saying that his teacher was recognised as a "true Ninjer" by the people he fought, and Ashida knows it because Ashida himself wrote it down last week!

This is not to disparage the story, Christianity, the Bible, or anything else, just pointing out that for this story to mean what you want it to requires faith to already be in place that such things are true, they really don't stand on their own merit. Especially the observations you made from it.


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## mook jong man (Feb 5, 2011)

This could very well be a case of demonic possession.







But in her case its more likely to be cocaine possession.


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## Cirdan (Feb 5, 2011)

Sandanchris said:


> Okay im off of my soap box now! There are many other passages we could look at but I chose this one for its simplicity!
> I have personally seen people possessed and they can be dangerous and downright scary! All one needs to do is watch a
> few movies or youtube videos to see how true life stories become nightmares!


 
I just spent twenty minutes trying to conjure up mighty Asmodeus to enter my body. Unsucessfully, what ever am I doing wrong? Perhaps Belphegor or Astaroth are easier, I will have to try again.. once I`ve found another chiken to sacrifice.

Anyway people don`t need demons to become crazy scary or dangerous. They are perfectly able to do that on their own, but it is comfortable to blame the supernatural I guess. Sometimes one needs to watch one`s choise of cool drinks.



mook jong man said:


> This could very well be a case of demonic possession.


 
Are you seriously suggesting a demon would _want_ to enter _that_?


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2011)

This fear of demon/devil worship stuff can be dangerous and ruin peoples lives.
http://www.wunderkabinett.co.uk/damndata/index.php?/archives/129-Scottish-Satanic-Abuse.html

Start talkling about 'devils' in a martial arts club could well have social workers come sniffing around to take away students children.

http://afriendlyletter.com/afl121.html

We can joke about it this but there are people who take devil worship etc so seriously they are prepared to destroy people to 'save' them. 
There was never any evidence to even suggest any of the children's families had been devil worshipping or had abused their children in any way, in fact some of the children were Quakers, some of the nicest, most genuinely caring religious people I know who try only to do good and never impose their views on others. The very best of people in fact.


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 5, 2011)

In a seperate school from any church I'd have an issue with this to say the least. Completely unfair to allow a completely unrelated system of beliefs into a dojo. One could maybe make a case for a related belief, i.e some kind of spiritual component to the art itself, but that's ridiculous outside of a church club and would definitely send me personally packing.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 5, 2011)

Then spiritual has a whole range of definitions too. Is it a warm fuzzy feeling you get when around friends and family, or a feeling of contentment? It&#8217;s a wishy washy word that some people throw around, but it has a different meaning depending on who you ask. Some think that it&#8217;s a fluff word, that means nothing but a backwards attempt at religion.


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 5, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Then spiritual has a whole range of definitions too. Is it a warm fuzzy feeling you get when around friends and family, or a feeling of contentment? Its a wishy washy word that some people throw around, but it has a different meaning depending on who you ask. Some think that its a fluff word, that means nothing but a backwards attempt at religion.



The subjectivity of the issue creates difficulty distinguishing what's acceptable and what's unfair, but I don't think specific religious points that are/were relevant/important to the philosophy of the martial art as intended by its founders (I.e not a connection made between religion and the art by a non-founder instructor) would cross that line. Catholic/Christian themes in a dojo for a Japanese art certainly do. Spirituality was a poor choice of words.


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## Blade96 (Feb 5, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> This could very well be a case of demonic possession.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Omg, wheres an exorcist when you need one


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 5, 2011)

This isn't going to turn into a religious debate is it?


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 5, 2011)

16 pages in and it hasn't yet.

I don't think it will, either. We respect each other's arts and learn from them, not much difference in religion.


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## Carol (Feb 5, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> The subjectivity of the issue creates difficulty distinguishing what's acceptable and what's unfair, but I don't think specific religious points that are/were relevant/important to the philosophy of the martial art as intended by its founders (I.e not a connection made between religion and the art by a non-founder instructor) would cross that line. Catholic/Christian themes in a dojo for a Japanese art certainly do. Spirituality was a poor choice of words.



I dunno if I would say that is unacceptable or unfair.  I much prefer religious themes be front and center.  It may not be people's cup of tea, absolutely!  But how can a person make an informed decision if they do not experience the Christian themes when they visit?


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## Eazy (Feb 6, 2011)

Fair call i reckon your concern is fair and you aswell as the others should not have to ware that patch. Your trainer should also respect your beliefs as you repect his.


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 6, 2011)

Carol said:


> I dunno if I would say that is unacceptable or unfair. I much prefer religious themes be front and center. It may not be people's cup of tea, absolutely! But how can a person make an informed decision if they do not experience the Christian themes when they visit?


 
What I really meant was that the Christian themes shouldn't be in the dojo at all, not that they should be hidden from visitors. They just don't belong there.


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## jthomas1600 (Feb 6, 2011)

Our church runs a "Christian" basketball league every year. It's hugely popular in our community. They couch and teach really good basketball. Each game is opened with a prayer and there's a short "devotion" at half time. The schools run a league and the parks and recreation district runs a league. So everyone's got plenty of choices. If they don't want to hear a prayer or a short devotion they can play in one of the other leagues, or even not play at all. I see martial arts as the same way. Some may be heavily steeped in eastern religious beliefs, some may be christian and some like the one I train at may be completely neutral. If you don't like Christian beliefs being promoted at your school, don't go to one that promotes Christian beliefs. It's that simple in my mind.


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2011)

jthomas1600 said:


> Our church runs a "Christian" basketball league every year. It's hugely popular in our community. They couch and teach really good basketball. Each game is opened with a prayer and there's a short "devotion" at half time. The schools run a league and the parks and recreation district runs a league. So everyone's got plenty of choices. If they don't want to hear a prayer or a short devotion they can play in one of the other leagues, or even not play at all. I see martial arts as the same way. Some may be heavily steeped in eastern religious beliefs, some may be christian and some like the one I train at may be completely neutral. If you don't like Christian beliefs being promoted at your school, don't go to one that promotes Christian beliefs. It's that simple in my mind.


 
I think everyone agrees with that but the OP's problem was that his dojo changed after he'd trained there for a while so he didn't get the choice to train at a religious place or not, it was more or less imposed unless he wanted to leave.


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## jthomas1600 (Feb 7, 2011)

Tez, there were several posts (most notably the one directly before mine) that said Christian themes had no place in a dojo. That is what I was responding to.

As to the school changing over time? Right or wrong, that happens too. And it's not just with the religious stuff. I've already seen a number of threads on here along the lines of "my school used to be hard core self defense, now it's all light contact point sparring geared towards sports". What are you gonna do right? You can stay and change with the school, or you can move on.


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 7, 2011)

jthomas1600 said:


> Tez, there were several posts (most notably the one directly before mine) that said Christian themes had no place in a dojo. That is what I was responding to.
> 
> As to the school changing over time? Right or wrong, that happens too. And it's not just with the religious stuff. I've already seen a number of threads on here along the lines of "my school used to be hard core self defense, now it's all light contact point sparring geared towards sports". What are you gonna do right? You can stay and change with the school, or you can move on.



Fair enough but I'm still going to maintain that a church group and a private dojo are two different things.

Not something I have a problem with personally but I expect there'd be a markedly different response if the dojo preached Atheism, for example.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 7, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> What I really meant was that the Christian themes shouldn't be in the dojo at all, not that they should be hidden from visitors. They just don't belong there.


I disagree.  There is enough of a demand for Christian themed MA that there are several organizations devoted to the concept.  Christian themed schools meet a need.  It may not be my personal need; though I am Christian, I do not feel that every institution that I associate needs to be Christian, but such schools do meet *someone's* need.  I see them as more of a niche martket, but a service marketed effectively to a particular niche can be quite successful on a small scale.  Also, those who worry about such things can go to those schools an the rest of us don't have to spend our time explaining to them why what we do isn't unbiblical in some way.  

I have said this previously; if the instructor is reputable and I like what I see, I don't particularly care if they have a yin/yang, a cross, a star of David, or a crescent moon.  I am with Carol, however; if the school has a religious theme, it should be front and center.

Daniel


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## Carol (Feb 7, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Fair enough but I'm still going to maintain that a church group and a private dojo are two different things.
> 
> Not something I have a problem with personally but I expect there'd be a markedly different response if the dojo preached Atheism, for example.



Here's where I differ.   I just don't see martial arts as anything so pristine that it absolutely must be divorced from all worldviews and expressions thereof.  For one, that's not how MA is practiced in many locales.  For another I just don't have an issue with that sort of thing.  Religion/atheism is part of many people's life, and blending martial arts with philosophy is something that seems to have been around since as long as there were MA systems.

I dunno, I'm Catholic and I likely wouldn't have an issue with going to a school run by atheists especially if their intention is to strip all the mystical woo-woo stuff out of training and get down to brass tacks about sound mechanics.  Likewise, I don't think I'd have an issue with training with folks that have Christian (or Jewish, or any other faith's) themes.

I would have an issue if the school denigrated people who don't think as they do, if they evangelize their philosophy in some way, or if they spent mat time talking about their worldview rather than talking about training.  I wouldn't tolerate that from anyone -- whether I share the same worldview or not is irrelevant.  

But just because I don't like a particular practice doesn't mean I don't think it should be banned.  I just think it should be front and center so I can make my own decision as to whether I want to train there or not.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 7, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Fair enough but I'm still going to maintain that a church group and a private dojo are two different things.
> 
> Not something I have a problem with personally but I expect there'd be a markedly different response if the dojo preached Atheism, for example.


I would see a difference between being not-religious and preaching atheism.  If there is a market for an atheist themed school, then it would serve a need.  I suspect, however, that there is no such market, as atheists will simply seek out a school that doesn't preach religion rather than seeking out a proactively atheist school.

Daniel


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 8, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would see a difference between being not-religious and preaching atheism. If there is a market for an atheist themed school, then it would serve a need. I suspect, however, that there is no such market, as atheists will simply seek out a school that doesn't preach religion rather than seeking out a proactively atheist school.
> 
> Daniel


 
100% true but I used atheism to make a point. Substitute it with Satanism, even. (Not nearly as good of a parallel.) 

Also, many of the atheists I know are ten times more obnoxious in preaching their views than most of the Christians I know so I would expect a niche for it to exist.



Carol said:


> Here's where I differ. I just don't see martial arts as anything so pristine that it absolutely must be divorced from all worldviews and expressions thereof. For one, that's not how MA is practiced in many locales. For another I just don't have an issue with that sort of thing. Religion/atheism is part of many people's life, and blending martial arts with philosophy is something that seems to have been around since as long as there were MA systems.


 
I didn't intend anything about diluting martial arts. My feelings on this would be the same if it was a bowling league, I'd choose not to associate with a group that incorporated Christian themes and if it started after the fact I'd leave. I don't have a problem with it but I also won't pay to be a part of it. Photography is part of my life too, has nothing to do with my martial arts. So is my physics/science education which one could argue are just as important to certain beliefs as religion.



Carol said:


> But just because I don't like a particular practice doesn't mean I don't think it should be banned. I just think it should be front and center so I can make my own decision as to whether I want to train there or not.


 
Exactly what I've been saying. I don't even dislike the idea, but I won't support it by paying to train there or staying there should things swing this way.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 8, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> 100% true but I used atheism to make a point. Substitute it with Satanism, even. (Not nearly as good of a parallel.)
> 
> Also, many of the atheists I know are ten times more obnoxious in preaching their views than most of the Christians I know so I would expect a niche for it to exist.


I suspect that those particular atheists are far fewer in number than that of evangelical Christians. Unless they're all in one place, video training aside, they'd be a difficult group to market to.  As I said, most atheists don't look for 'atheists themed' businesses, and there doesn't appear to be a visible subculture of them that does.

Same would go for satanists. Generally, satanism is looked down upon by most everyone, not just those within Christianity, and I would bet that there are many more atheists than satanists. So unless you have a large concentration of satanists in one place, video training aside, it would be very difficult to market to them.  Satanists don't look for satan themed businesses because I suspect that they know that the search will be mostly fruitless, as satanists compose a much smaller group than do atheists.

On the other hand, there is a very large subculture of Christianity that seeks out Christian themed businesses either exclusively or as often as possible, in addition to 'Christian themed' giving warm fuzzies to many Christians that are otherwise unconcerned about such things.

Most "Christian" themed businesses are themed in order to attract Christians, not in order to spread the gospel to non-Christians. And most Christians who go to a Christian MA school are doing so in order to practice in what they consider a safe haven. 

As for the school changing after the fact, I just accept that all businesses change after the fact. Either you accept the change or go elsewhere. Sears Roebuck was a watch repair shop. They changed into a department store and eventually dropped watch repair and Roebuck's name. People went elsewhere for watch repair and either continued to patronize the store for the goods that it continued to offer or ceased to patronize it. 

Most electronic goods were made in the US many years ago. American electronics companies changed the nation of origin of their goods after the fact and without sending out a huge announcment to forwarn their customers. 

Businesses change. Nobody thinks anything of it unless the change involves religion, which is silly. LIke the change or don't care about the change? Keep patronizing them. Don't like the change? Stop patronizing them. Its as simple as that.

The whole 'religion belongs/does not belong in martial arts' is a matter of opinion. Martial arts are physical skills. If you think of them as more than that, then that is fine and should train in a school that reflects that. But there is no rule that requires nor prevents religion from being attached to the practice of those physical skills. Nor is there a rule that allows for only Asian philosophy and religion to be attached to them. 

Physical skills. Teach them in the way that you see fit. Just understand that you may limit both your clientelle and the places that will want you to teach for them if you theme your classes according to a specific religion. 

If my classes are themed toward simply teaching hapkido, I can teach it at Church, in the public schools, at the community college, at the Christian school, at the Jewish Community Center, at the Islamic Center, at the YMCA, out of my backyard, at Bally's, or in retail space. 

If I make it a point to teach *Christian* hapkido, I have limited myself to Church, the Christian school, possibly the YMCA, my backyard, and retail space.

Daniel


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## Blade96 (Feb 8, 2011)

I personally dont think religion preaching religion and suchshould be brought into a ma's class. The only time God was mentioned in mine was when sensei wanted us to use our hips more when blocking. He's like, Thats what god gave em to ya for. And he said, if you dont believe in god - he gave em to ya anyway.


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## Yondanchris (Feb 9, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, playing with fire here a bit, but I really don't see this as anything other than specious reasoning. Your argument comes down to a biblical passage from one of the Gospels (Matthew), and you are using that to demonstrate the idea of demonic possesion as a concrete thing, using this story as a factual piece of evidence. I would say that it fails on a number of levels for that.
> 
> A few quick observations:
> 
> ...



My whole idea was to share my belief that regarded demonic possession as "bad" needless to say this was just the first "story" that popped into my head, and we could go into a lengthy debate about the voracity and authenticity of scripture (for another thread)


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## Chris Parker (Feb 9, 2011)

Oh, I got that, my point was more that the definition of "demonic possesion" may be rather out in this case, and that the story you used was of a Christian viewpoint, which is rather different from the actual context of the art itself, and as such isn't really a good example to use (or any Christian take on it, really), as we aren't dealing with that understanding.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 9, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> I personally dont think religion preaching religion and suchshould be brought into a ma's class. The only time God was mentioned in mine was when sensei wanted us to use our hips more when blocking. He's like, Thats what god gave em to ya for. And he said, if you dont believe in god - he gave em to ya anyway.


Generally, most school are areligious.  Schools themed as 'Christian' are very few and far between, and I suspect that aside from a few symbols that are simply associated with martial arts in the west, there isn't a whole lot of eastern religion in most martial arts schools, regardless of the art.

As for whether preaching religion and such *should* be brought into an MA class, that is opinion.  Now, you may *prefer* that it not be, and your preference will be catered to by the vast majority of MA schools.  But I don't see this as a matter of should vs. should not.

Personally, I do not seek out MA schools with a Christian theme, even though I am Christian.  I don't feel the need to have a safe haven to train in, and if the sensei/sabeom starts introducing freaky things, I can take my own advice and decide if I either like or don't care about the changes or cannot tollerate them, and then either stay or go.  

Now, there are people who specifically want a bit of Jesus in their Jujutsu, a bit of Christ in their karate, or a bit of Holy Spirit in their Hapkido.  Those are the people that Christian themed schools are aimed at.  In some cases, it is simply the school owner's desire to operate his or her school that way, but the end result is that the school will end up aimed at that group.

You know, whole industries exist to cater to people with alternative gender preferences.  Great lengths have been taken on the part of the entertainment industry to insure that folks who prefer same gender relationships are represented.  The world hasn't imploded and my girlfriend, inspite of watching far more television than I do, hasn't turned into a lesbian.  And inspite of the fact that there is a predominance of straight relationships portrayed on television, a good friend of mine who is a lesbian seems to still be going strong with her girlfriend, and both watch far more television than I do.

If religion is what the students want and what the instructor wants to infuse into the class, then by all means, they should go for it.  But the instructor should be prepared for the consequence that his student body will likely be smaller.  

Diferent strokes for different folks.

Daniel


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## Sensei Payne (Feb 9, 2011)

You know, someone else once made people of a certain faith wear a patch on there sleeve to indicate there faith...

Talk to your instructor.

The voice unspoken is the one that goes unheard


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## Chris Parker (Feb 10, 2011)

Hmm, interesting way to Godwin the thread.... For the record, though, that's really not a good comparison in the least. On the one hand, you have a group (the dojo being discussed) which has changed it's focus, and altered it's patch accordingly, while introducing a more Christian ethic and flavour to the school. Then, your example, is a case of someone (heading a rather extreme group) singling out members of another ethnic group for prejudiced treatment (again, extreme).

In short, this situation is nothing like Nazi Germany. I'm concerned for anyone who would see it that way, honestly.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 10, 2011)

To those who are of a Christian persuasion, since Bible verses have been brought into the mix, I'd like to offer the following verses: 

*1 Corinthians 10:23-31:*

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 
28 But if someone says to you, &#8220;This has been offered in sacrifice,&#8221; then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 
29*I am referring to the other person&#8217;s conscience, not yours.* For why is my freedom being judged by another&#8217;s conscience? 
30 *If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? *
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God&#8212; 
33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. 

This passage addresses the idea that Christians can eat with non believers and eat the food that is offered, even if it has been offered in sacrifice; its just food. But some Christians who are not as strong in their faith will judge this as sinful. Paul advises to, in their presence, refrain from doing such so as not to be a stumbling block to *them*.

The 'them' are the Christians who most often will seek out a Christian themed studio. Like the food in question, martial arts are physical skills. I am capable of learning them without converting to Buddhism, Shintoism, Muism, or any other 'ism' that I do not personally subscribe to. But not all Christians can attend a class with what they consider overt "eastern mysticism" involved. 

My own feeling is, and this has Biblical support, that Christians are supposed to be in the world but not of the world. In the world means that we are not shielded from the things in the world, but we do not internalize these things or make them our own. I may participate in an Aikido class, but should the sensei have a moment of meditation as part of the class, even if he is theming it as something to do with a non-Christian religious practice, its just meditation. I can meditate on scripture or take some time for silent prayer. The rest of the class may meditate on whatever they feel like meditating on. And that is fine. If I'm in the class, I'm there to learn the skill that the sensei can impart and I will just accept that he is of a religion that is different from mine. Hopefully, I will conduct myself in a way that is praiseworthy, and should the subject of my faith come up, because I have conducted myself in a praiseworhty way, I will not have prejudiced others against it through bad behavior. 

In that way, Christ is represented in a positive way before non-believers. As for any 'eastern mysticism' in the class, I won't channel any demons (or anything else) by accident. 

Many of our Christian holy days coinside with what were non-Christian festivals. Aligning Christmas with the yuletide doesn't seem to have caused the celebration of Christmas to turn into a pagan ritual or Christans to turn into pagans. If anything, our own buying into rampant commercialism at Christmas time has done far more damage than any simultaneous non Christian religious practices could ever do. 

Now, what I do find humorous is that Christians are expected to go to a dojo and if the beliefs are different from their own to just suck it up. But then some (not all by any means) non Christians will whine like the dickens if they are put in a position where they need to do the same.

Daniel


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 10, 2011)

Was Payne really referencing Nazi's? I for one didn't pick up on whatever it was he was talking about.

And Daniel, I'd give you a +1 but apparently it's too soon, which is a darn shame because I feel that it was quite intelligent and should be recognized as such.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 10, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Was Payne really referencing Nazi's? I for one didn't pick up on whatever it was he was talking about.


He was referring the Nazi practice of forcing the Jews to wear a star of David.

Either that, or he is refering to the swastika on the sleeve, though I suspect that he was referring to the above, as Nazis were not really forced against their will to will to wear swastikas.

Daniel


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## Balrog (Feb 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> To those who are of a Christian persuasion, since Bible verses have been brought into the mix, I'd like to offer the following verses:
> 
> *1 Corinthians 10:23-31:*
> 
> ...


There's another point of view.  Bringing Christianity into a school directly violates the teachings of Jesus.  It puts the school owner on a par with the hypocrites as mentioned here:



> *Matt.6*
> 
> [*1*] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
> [*2*] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
> ...


.

There it is.  In no uncertain terms, no one should know what your religious beliefs are.  Period.


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## Sensei Payne (Feb 11, 2011)

My example was from Nazi Germany...but the atrocities they committed is not the point.  

I believe that Martial Arts classes should remain secular...not because I'm not Christian, because I am...but its from a Politically correct, business stand point.

For example...

What if a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. does join your school...and its aginst their beliefs to wear a cross. IMO to avoid singling any one person out Religion should be kept separate from Martial Arts classes.

Now please don't misunderstand me. If you run your class out of a church or have a church funded class, I completely respect that, and if your running a class and making a living doing it, more power to ya.  but from a business owners stand point, I wouldn't want to turn away a good student, or potentially lose one due to my religious convictions.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 11, 2011)

Your example was still diametrically opposed to the point of this thread, though.

When it comes to religious concepts in martial arts, or at least some aspect of a spiritual aspect, to me, there has to be one. Absolutely. And, so we all know, that's coming from a confirmed agnostic (hmm, does that make sense?).

In martial arts, especially the older ones, you are training to seriously injure or kill an opponent, another human being, and that comes with a realisation of the likelihood of your own possible death or serious injury, which naturally leads to thoughts of what happens after mortality is achieved, both for yourself and for those you cut down in their lives. This thinking on such things leads many martial artists over the centuries to a spiritual awakening in their lives, with many Samurai becoming monks later in life, and such individual accounts as Yagyu Munenori conversing with the Zen priest Takuan Soto, Musashi Miyamoto taking on the Buddhist teachings in later life (to the point where the Gorin no Sho is said to be only understood if you also know the Buddhist sutras), many martial artists who develop their understanding into a new expression of a martial art base them around particular shrines (such as Katori Shinto Ryu, and Kashima Shinryu, and more), and so on. It's natural that if you are concerned with killing, you are concerned with what that means for your enemies, as it will most likely mean the same thing for you.

With all this said, it does not necessarily mean that there should be a particular religious aspect. For instance, in the Gyokko Ryu Kamae aspects I mentioned earlier coming from very definate Shinto origins, you have no need to follow Shinto teachings for the kamae to work/make sense. But knowing where they come from is quite beneficial to understand them. It's what Daniel was talking about when he mentioned being "in the world, but not of the world". But what is needed is a spiritual morality, and religion is just one way of gaining that. Others are just instilling in people when to use or not use it.

Without it, you're just teaching people to be violent thugs.


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## Carol (Feb 11, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> Now please don't misunderstand me. If you run your class out of a church or have a church funded class, I completely respect that, and if your running a class and making a living doing it, more power to ya.  but from a business owners stand point, I wouldn't want to turn away a good student, or potentially lose one due to my religious convictions.



Most folks don't...whether they have a profitable storefront school, or whether they are small club that meets in the instructor's garage.

MA is a blind item.  You don't know what you are getting in to, yet you are expected to make significant investments of time, effort, and often money, to reach a long term goal.  Words such as "loyalty", "respect", and "courtesy" are liberally passed around.

What I find to be rather insidious about this situation is that the instructor -- the person of power -- was bringing students along in a particular way, but then changed the rules midstream....knowing that the students were in for the long haul.  People change, I understand that...but this person apparently did it with little warning and no transition plan.

Near me is a private law school in Massachusetts that is not accredited by the American Bar Association.  This makes it more affordable than accredited law schools.  The downside is that its graduates can only sit for the Mass. bar (and firms do not see them as valuable as grads from accredited schools).

So...what would happen if a student making their way through this school...and then midstream the school announces they are changing their curriculum?   Its not like the student can simply transfer to another school.  The student has some knowledge, but not enough to reach a point of matriculation.

This would spark outrage, and possibly even a state investigation. Yet for a martial arts school to do essentially the same thing, its considered OK?  That, meh, students just need to suck it up and deal?  

If an instructor wants to change direction, at least have the loyalty to one's students, not to mention the respect and courtesy, to work a succession plan so the students that don't want to go in that direction can continue on with their investment.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 11, 2011)

Balrog said:


> There's another point of view. Bringing Christianity into a school directly violates the teachings of Jesus. It puts the school owner on a par with the hypocrites as mentioned here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Keeping your belief secret is not at all what that passage addresses. That was addressing using religious trappings in a public way to gain esteem for one's self. In other words, do your charitable giving without advertising it. Don't try to let everyone know how pious you are by praying loudly and repetitiously in public. When you fast, don't try to let everyone know how holy you are by walking around dressed in an uncharacteristic way and looking like you're dying of hunger. 

Given that Jesus commanded his disciples to spread the good news, It is a definite misinterpretation of the passage to say that he mandated that nobody should know what your beliefs *are*. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that one should keep their faith secret, as not only does this passage not address that, the rest of the NT is themed around the spreading of the gospel. The only time that secrecy was ever brought up was when the apostles where hiding from the aurthorities. 

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 11, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> My example was from Nazi Germany...but the atrocities they committed is not the point.


For a man who referrences political correctness below, you sure are selective about it.  It is very politically incorrect to compare things to Nazi Germany.  If the comparison were valid, that would be one thing, but it isn't.  Not even close.  

The only reason that anyone compares people or practices to Nazi Germany is to create ill will towards them, marginalize them, or sidetrack a debate.  That's why politicians do it; their opponent now has to waste his or her time explaining why they're not a Nazi and the one who first made the remark no longer has to win the debate by making a better case. 



Sensei Payne said:


> I believe that Martial Arts classes should remain secular...not because I'm not Christian, because I am...but its from a Politically correct, business stand point.
> 
> For example...
> 
> What if a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. does join your school...and its aginst their beliefs to wear a cross. IMO to avoid singling any one person out Religion should be kept separate from Martial Arts classes.


Your arguement falls flat.  Suppose it is agains someone's beliefs to have eastern spiritual symbols on their uniform?  School patch has a yin/yang.  Person of an Abrahamic faith says, 'I am not wearing that.'  Sensei says, 'this is our organization's patch and all students' uniforms have it.  Its just a patch.'  

People are too hypersensitive.  Is that same person going to not use the first aid kit because it has a big honkin red cross on it?  Or turn away the red cross in a disaster?  Or if they're in a Muslim country, tell the doctor 'no thanks' because he has a crescent moon on his jacket?  I seriously doubt it.

Political correctness is not really a valid reason to say that all MA classes *should* be secular.  The vast majority of them are anyway, so I don't know why people whine about the few that are.  That is your preference.  If you prefer a secular class, the world is awash in schools that offer them.



Sensei Payne said:


> Now please don't misunderstand me. If you run your class out of a church or have a church funded class, I completely respect that, and if your running a class and making a living doing it, more power to ya. but from a business owners stand point, I wouldn't want to turn away a good student, or potentially lose one due to my religious convictions.


Obviously, you don't respect it: you just stated above that you "_believe that Martial Arts classes should remain secular_" and compared Christian themed MA schools to the Nazis.  That is not a demonstration of respect.  

As for the business standpoint, some businesses do very well by becoming highly specialized.  Porsche doesn't make family cars, economy cars, pickup trucks, or station wagons.  They make performance cars period.  Even their one sedan looks like a 911 with an extra set of doors wedged in, costs a ton, and drives like a race car.  Porsche has effectively shut out 90% of the market.  Ferrari has shut out even more.  Their cars are more expensive, they don't even have a sedan or SUV, their cars get even lousier mileage, and you need to do gymnastics to get in and out of them.  

Part of good business is knowing who your customer is and taking the necesary steps to reach that customer, bring them in, and keep them coming in.  That is essentially what a religiouly themed MA school is doing, whether they know it or not.  Some do it well, others do it poorly.

Daniel


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 11, 2011)

Yes, Balrog, you don't seem to understand the meaning of that passage. It's about hypocritical people appearing to be righteous to make themselves look good in the eyes of others. Believers are encouraged and in fact *commanded* to incorportate their beliefs into everything they do and speak openly about their beliefs.

Payne, I agree having a religious theme in a dojo could be a poor business model, but I think the majority of religious MA groups are more like private clubs and couldn't care less about the business aspect.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 11, 2011)

Carol said:


> What I find to be rather insidious about this situation is that the instructor -- the person of power -- was bringing students along in a particular way, but then changed the rules midstream....knowing that the students were in for the long haul. People change, I understand that...*but this person apparently did it with little warning and no transition plan*.


I agree with you, though in this situation only tentatively, mainly because I suspect that we are not getting the entire picture, either from the OP or Lionsroar.


Carol said:


> If an instructor wants to change direction, at least have the loyalty to one's students, not to mention the respect and courtesy, to work a succession plan so the students that don't want to go in that direction can continue on with their investment.


I agree.  Also, I'd like to add that if the school changes direction, the school should waive any contracts (if any) to allow those that do not like the new direction to leave and find another school.  If a school owner decides to make his school Christian and then tells those that don't like the direction that they have to fulfill their two year contract that still has a year to go, well, that aint exactly in line with those new found Christian values.

Daniel


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## Lionsroar (Feb 18, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I agree with you, though in this situation only tentatively, mainly because I suspect that we are not getting the entire picture, either from the OP or Lionsroar.
> 
> I agree. Also, I'd like to add that if the school changes direction, the school should waive any contracts (if any) to allow those that do not like the new direction to leave and find another school. If a school owner decides to make his school Christian and then tells those that don't like the direction that they have to fulfill their two year contract that still has a year to go, well, that aint exactly in line with those new found Christian values.
> 
> Daniel


 
I have given you guys the entire picture as to what occured in this situation 2 or 3 times now on this thread. The problem is the OP never gave the entire picture. He came on here and tried to express his frustration with the situation.  The truth is like I have said multiple times now, is that when the OP was accepted into training and began classes Sensei had already began making the changes. The transition period was over a course of probably a good year or so. The OP never had any real exposure to the Bujinkan system. And lets be honest here, anyone that trains in the Bujinkan system should know that at a 10 or 9th kyu what real exposure to the system have you had other than basic postures and sanshin no kata....

He like all students that come in to seek training are made well aware of the differences between our dojo and other "bujinkan" schools. Infact we even have it pointed out on our Dojo websites. Another point that he failed to make was that while training with us he was constantly seeking out training in other arts and schools. This may not be an issue to some but to us and members of the Bujinkan it is looked down on. Infact before he left he had already spent several months training in a "mixed martial arts" school here in town. 

This shouldn't be a Chrisitan issue. Yes the instructors at our dojo are Christian as are a good portion of our students, but not all are, and non of those that aren't seem to have any issues.  What this really boils down to is the fact that the OP was a nice kid but in the long run wasn't really fully committed to learning budo taijutsu but wanted to dable in multiple styles. It was obvious to the instructors the last few months he was with us his heart really wasn't in it especially since he was constantly missing classes and when he was training talked a lot about other arts he wanted to pursue. 

He left by sending us an email stating like I've said before that he had financial issues and couldn't pay for training any longer and also that his new class schedule (high school classes) would prohibit him from making most classes for the next few semesters. He never once expressed any of his concerns about "patches" or "christian" themes to any student or teacher. Had he have, we certainly would have tried to come to an agreement.

We wished him the best, but in truth we knew that he had already been training at a local kagukenbo (spell?) school for sometime before leaving us.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 18, 2011)

Lionsroar said:


> I have given you guys the entire picture as to what occured in this situation 2 or 3 times now on this thread. The problem is the OP never gave the entire picture. He came on here and tried to express his frustration with the situation. The truth is like I have said multiple times now, is that when the OP was accepted into training and began classes Sensei had already began making the changes. The transition period was over a course of probably a good year or so.


With due respect, rarely is the full story ever really conveyed on a forum.  Not due to intentional obscurement, but because it is the nature of things.  You post your perspective, he posted his, and the sensei involved is not a part of this discussion.  But that is neither here nor there.  No real judgement can be made on an internet forum because it is an internet forum.  None of us train with you, so everything from either you or he is second hand knowledge at best.

The rest of my post was meant in generalities, as this discussion has long since moved away from being about the OP's particular situation.  Most of this thread has been about the place of religion in dojos and how it should be handled in general , as the OP ceased posting some time ago.



Lionsroar said:


> The OP never had any real exposure to the Bujinkan system. And lets be honest here, anyone that trains in the Bujinkan system should know that at a 10 or 9th kyu what real exposure to the system have you had other than basic postures and sanshin no kata....
> 
> He like all students that come in to seek training are made well aware of the differences between our dojo and other "bujinkan" schools. Infact we even have it pointed out on our Dojo websites.


Given his relatively low rank (green belt, if I recall), I would take that as a given.



Lionsroar said:


> Another point that he failed to make was that while training with us he was constantly seeking out training in other arts and schools. This may not be an issue to some but to us and members of the Bujinkan it is looked down on. Infact before he left he had already spent several months training in a "mixed martial arts" school here in town.


In my opinion, unless one is already established in an art and is looking to simply crosstrain, they should stick with one place and one system, so I can see why you might look down on it.



Lionsroar said:


> This shouldn't be a Chrisitan issue. Yes the instructors at our dojo are Christian as are a good portion of our students, but not all are, and non of those that aren't seem to have any issues. What this really boils down to is the fact that the OP was a nice kid but in the long run wasn't really fully committed to learning budo taijutsu but wanted to dable in multiple styles. It was obvious to the instructors the last few months he was with us his heart really wasn't in it especially since he was constantly missing classes and when he was training talked a lot about other arts he wanted to pursue.
> 
> He left by sending us an email stating like I've said before that he had financial issues and couldn't pay for training any longer and also that his new class schedule (high school classes) would prohibit him from making most classes for the next few semesters. He never once expressed any of his concerns about "patches" or "christian" themes to any student or teacher. Had he have, we certainly would have tried to come to an agreement.
> 
> We wished him the best, but in truth we knew that he had already been training at a local kagukenbo (spell?) school for sometime before leaving us.


I'd gathered that from your previous posts.  Its all academic at this point: he's left your dojo and he's long since bowed out of this thread, so the majority of the discussion here has become one regarding the role (if any) of religion in a dojo.  Feel free to jump in.

Daniel


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## Chris Parker (Feb 18, 2011)

Hi Lionsroar,

Out of interest, do you have a responce to my points in post 207, page 14 of this thread? I'm asking mainly as you seem to have come back to argue a point that we aren't and hoped that you may take the time to clear a few things up. Thanks.

Oh, and it's Kajukembo/Kajukenbo, by the way.


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## FriedRice (Mar 9, 2011)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> I'll agree, Christian values can be good, and that in theory, a martial art should drive you to become a better person, but this should be the martial art itself, the discipline you get as you rise through your ranks, not by being told stories out of an old book.



What's the difference between this and some White guy with a huge Asian fetish  implementing Asian influences in philosophy, mannerism, etc. within his MA class?  I personally don't care to learn various Asian terms for an armbar, when it can just be called an armbar. 

If your sensei gave you a patch with some Chinese characters right out of a Chinese restaurant menu or Buddhist prayer books, I bet you'd have no problems with it....but a cross, oh my, the world is going to end. This is just his style. If you don't like it, then you should leave. Just like if you don't like to fight in pajamas, leave also. What about if there are Buddhist statues, goddess statues, etc in the dojo? What if he tells you to wear a Yin & Yang patch?

How about bowing? Kung-Fu has a whole routine. Muay Thai has the prayer hands thingy. TKD is a continuous "Sir Yes Sir" for  the whole class. Again, it's just his style to implement Biblical teachings into his class. Just like Kobrai Kai dojo where it's about killed or be killed. If you don't like it, stop paying them money and leave.


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