# How many of you know the whole system?  Is that possible?



## Makalakumu (Sep 25, 2010)

One school of thought when it comes to curriculum design is that they have a distinct beginning and end.  That said, does that apply to your martial art?  If so, do you know the whole system?  If not, can you learn the entire system?  

In my experience, usually after 5th dan, there isn't much new material to be taught.  There are exceptions, but those usually revolve around how one varies the material being taught.  A good example is my jujutsu system, you can learn all of the lists in about ten years, but you can work out variations for your entire life.  Technically, you have learned the whole system, but about application as time goes on.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 25, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> One school of thought when it comes to curriculum design is that they have a distinct beginning and end. That said, does that apply to your martial art? If so, do you know the whole system? If not, can you learn the entire system?
> 
> In my experience, usually after 5th dan, there isn't much new material to be taught. There are exceptions, but those usually revolve around how one varies the material being taught. A good example is my jujutsu system, you can learn all of the lists in about ten years, but you can work out variations for your entire life. Technically, you have learned the whole system, but about application as time goes on.


 

That's one problem I have with 'systems'.........not everything in someone else's system, i.e. a human being's codified curriculum for what worked best for him, so he assumes will work best for you, often erroneously.

The reality is that what works for me will take a divergent path from any system I study at some point. So what does it profit me, individual, to spend my time and energy pursuing someone else's path?

So the more IMPORTANT question than 'is it possible to learn the entire system' is 'is it even DESIREABLE to learn the entire system'?


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## Omar B (Sep 25, 2010)

It is quite possible to learn a whole system, but after that is the whole matter of constantly refining, becoming more efficient and faster.  Also at that point you have learned an entire philosophy of movement, mechanics and such so you can take information from other styles and fold it into the framework of what you know so in effect it becomes an unending system.


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## bribrius (Sep 25, 2010)

i know about 1/50th of one system and about 1/100th of a few others.

Does that count for anything?  Put together and minus anything i forgot over time i probably have the knowledge in the 1/200th range over all.


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## Balrog (Sep 26, 2010)

There's always something new to learn.


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## dbell (Sep 26, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> One school of thought when it comes to curriculum design is that they have a distinct beginning and end.  That said, does that apply to your martial art?  If so, do you know the whole system?  If not, can you learn the entire system?
> 
> In my experience, usually after 5th dan, there isn't much new material to be taught.  There are exceptions, but those usually revolve around how one varies the material being taught.  A good example is my jujutsu system, you can learn all of the lists in about ten years, but you can work out variations for your entire life.  Technically, you have learned the whole system, but about application as time goes on.



In a "traditional" martial art system, with a complete Densho (Japanese systems), yes, it is possible to learn a complete system within the scope of that system.  And if you have a good teacher, who will show it all to you, you can do so in from typically 10 to 40 years.  Depending on the system, style, and instructor.

Does it mean it will all work for you as taught?  Not necessarily.


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## terryl965 (Sep 26, 2010)

Anything is possible, but with everything we need to evolve so we always need to be learning.


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## tim_stl (Sep 27, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> So the more IMPORTANT question than 'is it possible to learn the entire system' is 'is it even DESIREABLE to learn the entire system'?



i think a distinction has to be made between learning and continuously training and refining.  i've learned a lot of things from various systems that i won't spend any more time refining, because they don't suit me.  some of them i understand well enough to teach to others.  because i have no desire to use them in a fight, match, or self-defense, or spend further time training them, doesn't mean i shouldn't have spent time to learn them.  after all, if i never learned them, how would i know that they don't work for me?

i try out systems with fighting or training principles that appeal to me.  if none of the basics appeal to me, i won't pursue it further.  if they do, i'll pursue it as time allows.  with regard to a system that i intend to teach, it should go without saying that i should learn it all, and understand it well enough to instruct, even if i don't prefer it.  everyone has their own preferences and strengths, which is why i encourage everyone that i train to train under other instructors, even within the same system.

you can't find if you don't look, and in this instance, learning is looking.


tim


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 27, 2010)

tim_stl said:


> i think a distinction has to be made between learning and continuously training and refining. i've learned a lot of things from various systems that i won't spend any more time refining, because they don't suit me. some of them i understand well enough to teach to others. because i have no desire to use them in a fight, match, or self-defense, or spend further time training them, doesn't mean i shouldn't have spent time to learn them. after all, if i never learned them, how would i know that they don't work for me?
> 
> i try out systems with fighting or training principles that appeal to me. if none of the basics appeal to me, i won't pursue it further. if they do, i'll pursue it as time allows. with regard to a system that i intend to teach, it should go without saying that i should learn it all, and understand it well enough to instruct, even if i don't prefer it. everyone has their own preferences and strengths, which is why i encourage everyone that i train to train under other instructors, even within the same system.
> 
> ...


 
Excellent point! 

And that's what I mean is that any system is the product of an individual or a group of individuals who have pursued a certain path. Their complete system is what they have found works best for them. At some point I may find that some of what I have explored isn't optimal for me, so I need to search elsewhere for a better fit, or I may adopt some, but not all, of a system, and pick and choose other things that fit.

If I find a very good system that is a good match for me, then I should pursue that system as far as it is compatible with my individual needs, strengths and weaknesses.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 27, 2010)

Define "Whole System"

I can learn only what my sifu wants to teach me based on what his sifu taught him. But did the sifu of my sigung teach him the "whole system" and how would I ever know

And if you look to an example like Ip Man; a lot say he taught the entire system as he knew it to no one. But that was not because he was keeping secrets he just taught each student what he felt was best for them based on body type and personality.


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## tim_stl (Sep 27, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> If I find a very good system that is a good match for me, then I should pursue that system as far as it is compatible with my individual needs, strengths and weaknesses.



absolutely.

personally, i've never learned a whole system.  the ones that i've pursued to a significant degree have had a depth that i've not been able to learn in its entirety.


tim


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 27, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Define "Whole System"
> 
> I can learn only what my sifu wants to teach me based on what his sifu taught him. But did the sifu of my sigung teach him the "whole system" and how would I ever know
> 
> And if you look to an example like Ip Man; a lot say he taught the entire system as he knew it to no one. But that was not because he was keeping secrets he just taught each student what he felt was best for them based on body type and personality.


 
It would also seem to come down to the definition of 'learn'.  As tim pointed out, are we referring to being exposed to every part of the system enough to know it's there, and understand it, or 'knowing' it in the sense of mastery?

Of course then we get in to the nebulous definition of 'mastery' and my head starts hurting.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 27, 2010)

If we look at this in terms of assessment, we get to the point in our education where we either create what we set out to create or we don't.  If one is learning a system and it doesn't advance you to a clear set of learning outcomes, then maybe it's not really possible to "learn" that system.  On the other hand, if you learn the whole curriculum and you can perform everything that was claimed and expected at the outset, then maybe you really HAVE learned that system.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 27, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> It would also seem to come down to the definition of 'learn'. As tim pointed out, are we referring to being exposed to every part of the system enough to know it's there, and understand it, or 'knowing' it in the sense of mastery?
> 
> Of course then we get in to the nebulous definition of 'mastery' and my head starts hurting.


 
I won't even go into mastery...IMO no one can ever be a "master" of any system, because I feel as soon as one refers to himself or herself as "master" learning stops.

But what I am getting from Tims post is not knowing a whole system but knowing parts of several systems in order to be efficient at what the individual is looking for which to me, although it can be effective, is not understanding a system.

But now that brings me to now we need to define "system"


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## Langenschwert (Sep 28, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> One school of thought when it comes to curriculum design is that they have a distinct beginning and end. That said, does that apply to your martial art? If so, do you know the whole system? If not, can you learn the entire system?


 
It depends on the system. Some are quite specialized, and others cover a fair range of situations.

For the system I study (Kunst des Fechtens), I simply don't have the resources to learn unarmoured and armoured combat, armed (longsword, grossemesser, sword & buckler, dagger, staff, lance, spear and poleaxe) and unarmed, on horseback and on foot. That would be the whole system. So I have to break it down into the chunks I think are important to get a reasonable facility in German medieval/early renaissance martial arts. That means longsword, wrestling, and dagger plus another weapon or two.

Keep in mind we don't train full-time from the age of eight until 21 like they did in the middle ages. Back then, learning the whole system was your job. Failing to do so would get you killed. We have the luxury of learning as much or as little of a system as we like.

If I win the lottery, then I'll give learning the complete system my best shot. Until then, I guess I'll have to pick and choose.

-Mark


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## MJS (Sep 28, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> One school of thought when it comes to curriculum design is that they have a distinct beginning and end. That said, does that apply to your martial art? If so, do you know the whole system? If not, can you learn the entire system?
> 
> In my experience, usually after 5th dan, there isn't much new material to be taught. There are exceptions, but those usually revolve around how one varies the material being taught. A good example is my jujutsu system, you can learn all of the lists in about ten years, but you can work out variations for your entire life. Technically, you have learned the whole system, but about application as time goes on.


 

IMO, theres only so much material in a system.  Eventually, like you said, you reach a point, where there is nothing 'new' to learn, per se, but then again, how much material does one really need?  For ex: I've gone thru all of the required material in Arnis.  I have my BB.  I asked my teacher if there was anything else that I needed to focus on, material wise, and he said no.  Basically what it comes to now is continually going over the material, researching and finding things on my own.  Every time I get together with him, I'll pick something, and focus on that for the lesson.  So, not only do you get better at whatever it is you're working on, but you're also looking deeper, finding things, etc.  

So...to answer your question: Yes, I know the material for the arts that I do, but IMO, the learning never ends.


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## l_uk3y (Sep 29, 2010)

Another vote for define "whole".  Unless you are the creater of your system it is just about impossible. Who's too say your teacher or your teachers teachers teacher learnt everything (not a single part missed).   Every single person in the entire line has to have learnt everything and and then show everything. Once again. Too know an Entire system means you need to know every single possible application for every technique. That's a monumental task.

In saying that. You can certainly learn all of the "current version" of your system in your particular lineage.

Luke


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## bribrius (Sep 29, 2010)

okay. you guys are starting to make me think i need to get some instruction again. Learned everything about arnis?   wish i did. I know enough to give someone attacking me a really bad day but everything about a system????Nope.

I really like kenpo too but to learn it all?  Well supposedly kenpo never really stops but at some point you must know about all of it. There is just so much to it. Seems almost impossible. The few people i have known that have learned that much i am in awwe of them. How did you possibly do it?


i am suddenly feeling "naked".


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