# Why hang a Korean flag in your Taekwondo dojang?



## mastercole (Apr 3, 2012)

I have been to a lot of Taekwondo schools. From coast to coast in America, Canada, Mexico, Europe and Asia. I usually see a Korean flag hanging in most dojang. These days you can see thousands of dojang photo's on the internet. I usually see a Korean flag hanging in most dojang there as well.

Why have a Korean flag hanging in your Taekwondo dojang?

Is it important, or not?


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 3, 2012)

It does seem odd. Do they have an aussie flag in a zendokai dojo?, do they fly the flag of origin in training halls of other sports like cricket, soccer or rugby league? In saying that, we do have a korean flag on most of our dojang's paperwork, flyers etc. I dont have a problem with it, but dont really understand the concept.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 3, 2012)

I see it as acknowledging the origins of the art and showing respect to those who developed it.

Is it important? As important as hanging the US flag, I'd say.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 3, 2012)

Dont Karate Dojos tend to hang Japanese Flags?
Dont some MMA and Boxing Gyms hang National Flags?

Its just acknowledging the origin.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 3, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Dont Karate Dojos tend to hang Japanese Flags?
> Dont some MMA and Boxing Gyms hang National Flags?
> 
> Its just acknowledging the origin.


But do all mma and boxing gyms hang the same flag? I think thats where its different. Tkd clubs in any country may well have a korean flag hanging, whereas those flags would tend to be the flag of the country you are training in as opposed to a flag of the origin of the actual art being practiced.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 3, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> But do all mma and boxing gyms hang the same flag? I think thats where its different. Tkd clubs in any country may well have a korean flag hanging, whereas those flags would tend to be the flag of the country you are training in as opposed to a flag of the origin of the actual art being practiced.



I generally see both the US and Korean flags, not just the Korean.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 3, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> But do all mma and boxing gyms hang the same flag? I think thats where its different. Tkd clubs in any country may well have a korean flag hanging, whereas those flags would tend to be the flag of the country you are training in as opposed to a flag of the origin of the actual art being practiced.


Good point. Upon further reflection, Theyre both doing it for different reasons.

We have an Australian Flag and a Korean Flag, anyhow.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 3, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Is it important? As important as hanging the US flag, I'd say.



AFAIAC - not even close.

However, if someone chooses to do this I have no problem with it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 3, 2012)

In our traditional Okinawan karate dojo, we have a US flag and a Japanese flag on the Shomen (wall of honor).  I have no problem with it at all.  They are both displayed properly and respectfully.

Sometimes I laugh because I see people get wrapped around the axle about a Korean or Japanese flag in their training facility, but they have a US flag on their gi or dobok, which is actually incorrect and should not be worn on athletic uniforms.


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## MAist25 (Apr 3, 2012)

Yea, we have a Korean flag in our school. I think it is just something to show respect to the country that the art came from. It also is good for new people who dont know anything about martial arts and think everything Asian is always "Chinese" to realize that what we practice is a Korean martial art.


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 3, 2012)

Both a Korean flag and an American flag hang in our dojang, although neither hang in our KJN's dojang.  As a side note, the American flag hangs higher than the Korean flag.  My SBN is a marine, and he states that it is a sign of respect/patriotism of our country.  Not sure if this is a trend outside of our dojang though.. .


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## Manny (Apr 3, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I see it as acknowledging the origins of the art and showing respect to those who developed it.
> 
> Is it important? As important as hanging the US flag, I'd say.



Agree. In most Mexican dojangs if not everyone you have the mexican flag at the right and the korean flag at the right, this is the grade of importance, firsth is the mexican flag then the korean, we bow and salute both flags.

Manny


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## Master Dan (Apr 3, 2012)

It has always been done with both US and Korean Flag in any of our association's Do Jang's and seems to me many that I have seen nation wide it.

It would seem proper to do so in other countries with thier country flag as well as the Korean flag for obious reasons already stateded however.

We have a large Taekwondo festival in Alaska run by a young Korean master wonderful man that encourages fellowship and non political rangling ect and there was alot of negative comments from military people especially tkd masters ( some jelous looking for something to complain about) that the US flag and the Korean flag would be arranged in a certain left right pattern.

How many of you know which is first US flag then Korean or Korean flag then US or has it even mattered to you??????????????


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 3, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> How many of you know which is first US flag then Korean or Korean flag then US or has it even mattered to you??????????????



See;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

It matters that there is a right way to do things which should be followed when possible.


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## igillman (Apr 3, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> See;
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code
> 
> It matters that there is a right way to do things which should be followed when possible.



A lot of countries have a very short flag code, something along the lines of "Don't drop it and if you do then pick it up before someone else sees you.".


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## sopraisso (Apr 3, 2012)

This is an interesting question. First, in the dojang where I train we used to have Korea and Brazil's flags, I don't remember wich in right or left, but I never cared about the position issue. About a year ago the flags were put out. I believed it was due to some repairs they were making in the painting, but the flags were not held back since then. Anyway, I'm sure in my city (and probably in my country) the dojangs usually have both flags, and it's a custom to salute both of them (here both at once).

I think it should be okay to have the Korean flag, once taekwondo's origins are set in Korea, but then... hey! I think: so why wouldn't we hang Japanese flag, too, due to the important influence of karate in taekwondo? Or maybe we should hang Okinawa's flag, or else Chinese flag, because of Chinese martial arts in karate (and maybe even directly in taekwondo). Thinking about this makes me believe the "it's country origin of the martial art" be not enough a reason. Anyway, I think it's okay to accept the reason: "it's where taekwondo was brought from to us". To me it sounds like a nice reason to hang and salute the Korean flag, then.

Maybe the Korean flag custom comes from military relations in taekwondo's foundation history, or from some kind of guidelines received by the pioneers before having gone to foreign countries. *I think to discuss where this custom comes from would be as important as for why the flag should be held in the dojangs. Does anyone know about it?*

Finally, despite some kind of tendency of taekwondo becoming more universal, which I think is ok, I also believe it's good to keep a large part of tradition, so the martial art would remain as we recognize it, and the way it was shown us as a good thing. So to keep the tradition seems another good reason, in my opinion, to hold the Korean flag on the wall of the dojang.


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## puunui (Apr 3, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I see it as acknowledging the origins of the art and showing respect to those who developed it.



We acknowledge the origins of the art and show respect to those that developed it by issuing kukkiwon certification to the students. All I have is an American flag up on the wall, no Korean flag. When the kwan founders opened their dojang during the 1940's, they did not put up a japanese or okinawan flag on the wall. In turn, the dojo in Japan did not put up an Okinawan flag, and in Okinawa, they did not hang a Chinese flag on the wall. 

I don't put Korean flags on my dobok either.

Funny thing is, I have students who have their own dojang who put the Korean flag on both the wall and their dobok. My attitude is it is their school and they can do whatever they want.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 3, 2012)

Like Dirty Dog, I have a Korean in my program to acknowledge the origins of the art I teach. I don't have the Korean flag, or the US flag on my dobok. 

While I display the Korean flag to acknowledge the origins of the art, I also do it as an entre' into the Korean culture. (Even if it's just a little). I also have to admit that I do it out of my Taekwondo tradition. My first instructor displayed both the Korean & US flags, as did many other instructors I trained in over the years. There's a sense of it for me that says, "this is part of a Taekwondo dojang."


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 3, 2012)

puunui said:


> We acknowledge the origins of the art and show respect to those that developed it by issuing kukkiwon certification to the students.



Because of course, nobody outside the Kukkiwon could possible have had any influence on the development of taekwondo.



puunui said:


> All I have is an American flag up on the wall, no Korean flag. When the kwan founders opened their dojang during the 1940's, they did not put up a japanese or okinawan flag on the wall. In turn, the dojo in Japan did not put up an Okinawan flag, and in Okinawa, they did not hang a Chinese flag on the wall.



Gosh, I'm shocked to hear that, given that until that time their country had been occupied by the Japanese military and their culture rigidly supressed.


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## puunui (Apr 3, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because of course, nobody outside the Kukkiwon could possible have had any influence on the development of taekwondo.



That's true, with respect to your lineage.



Dirty Dog said:


> Gosh, I'm shocked to hear that, given that until that time their country had been occupied by the Japanese military and their culture rigidly supressed.



I suppose we could have a lengthy discussion about being "rigidly repressed"; but if that were the case, then why would the Korean pioneers study Japanese martial arts if that were the case? Why would the Korean people adopt anything from Japan, whether karate, judo, kendo, or Japanese karate innovations, uniforms, etc. ? And how about having Chinese flags in Okinawan dojo?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 3, 2012)

puunui said:


> That's true, with respect to your lineage.



Really? Would you care to explain how you have determined that my lineage is purely Kukkiwon?



puunui said:


> I suppose we could have a lengthy discussion about being "rigidly repressed"; but if that were the case, then why would the Korean pioneers study Japanese martial arts if that were the case? Why would the Korean people adopt anything from Japan, whether karate, judo, kendo, or Japanese karate innovations, uniforms, etc. ? And how about having Chinese flags in Okinawan dojo?



I'd guess that, given that the native martial arts were supressed, the only option available to those with an interest in MA training was to study Japanese or Chinese arts. And given their understandable desire to re-establish their national identity after their liberation from Japanese occupation, I'm not at all suprised that they'd downplay any non-Korean influences.


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## Zenjael (Apr 4, 2012)

I haven't read anything but the MP... but people have nationalities, not martial art.


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## puunui (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? Would you care to explain how you have determined that my lineage is purely Kukkiwon?



Everyone's lineage is included within the Kukkiwon. That is the whole point of the Kukkiwon, it includes everything and everyone.




Dirty Dog said:


> I'd guess that, given that the native martial arts were supressed, the only option available to those with an interest in MA training was to study Japanese or Chinese arts. And given their understandable desire to re-establish their national identity after their liberation from Japanese occupation, I'm not at all suprised that they'd downplay any non-Korean influences.



There is book I would recommend called "Korean Patterns". It was written by a non-korean gentleman who grew up in Korea because I believe his parents were christian workers there for over twenty years. He explains the interrelation between Korea and Japan. If anything, Korea looked up to Japan as an attainable model for modernization, as opposed to the USA, which was looked upon as being far too advanced, at least at that point in time. That is why Korean martial artists traveled to Japan for exchange matches and such. Korean martial artists, especially taekwondoin, were enamored with japanese karate, at least for a time, during the 50's and early 60s, so much so that they adopted the karate long wide stances during this period, something that is still with us today. Those long wide stances were not taught at the kwan during the 1940s; they were introduced during the late 50s and early 60s, until GM LEE Won Kuk came back in 1967 and reminded his students and juniors about how the stances were supposed to be practiced. A college education in a Japanese university was considered much more desirable and valuable than an education from a Korean or even American university as well. Today we can look at Korean car makers, who obviously modeled their company after Honda or Toyota. Similarly Samsung is the Korean equivalent of Sony. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and Korea has imitated Japan (and the US), in much the same way that Japan has imitated the US, Germany, and I believe the UK.


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## mastercole (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? Would you care to explain how you have determined that my lineage is purely Kukkiwon?



Would you care to explain how it is not?


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 4, 2012)

puunui said:


> Everyone's lineage is included within the Kukkiwon. That is the whole point of the Kukkiwon, it includes everything and everyone.



OK, maybe it's just me, but this seems a lot like the Mormons going back in time converting the deceased to being Mormons whether they would have wanted it or not.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 4, 2012)

puunui said:


> Everyone's lineage is included within the Kukkiwon. That is the whole point of the Kukkiwon, it includes everything and everyone.
> 
> .



I would not consider it so. AFAIAC my lineage predates the KKW.  As far as I know none of my isntructors, or their instructors were KKW memebers. At least not the one we think of being established in 1974 or so.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 4, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Would you care to explain how it is not?



Because my lineage would have to include those I trained with who were never a part of the Kukkiwon. You're not trying to tell us that General Choi (and through him, the ITF in general) was secretly part of the Kukkiwon, are you?


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## Manny (Apr 4, 2012)

When I was a teen I have once a dobok with the korean flag, right now I think the flag that I will put in my dobok will the Mexican one, because I am a proud Mexican and Love my flag, infact my black belts (the embroided ones) have the mexican flag.

Manny


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## mastercole (Apr 4, 2012)

The challenge is to look at the facts, and not your feelings.

The problem here is that many people really have no idea what the Kukkiwon was, and what it is today. We still have people who think the Kukkiwon is the WTF, and people who today realized there is a big difference between the two, use to think they were the same thing just a few short years ago.

Lets look at some facts:

- Every single Taekwondo practitioner in the world can trace their lineage back to one of the 5 original Kwan or one of the 4 annex Kwan.

- These 9 Kwan formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA), which created it's own "Dae Han Taekwondo Hyop Hae Joong Ahng Dojang" (KTA Central
   Gymnasium) which was on the 3rd floor of the Korea Sports Center, a facilty they leased out for that purpose.

- The KTA eventually built their own building to house their KTA Central Gymnasium.  See foundation plaque below that is still attached to the building today that states it is the KTA Central Gymnasium







[/IMG]

- Later the KTA decided to change the name of the building to the "National Technique Center", or, Kuk Ki Won. The Kukkiwon became independent of the KTA
  on February 5, 1980. On that date, the KTA ceased to have a Central Gymnasium because the KTA became a standard Member National Association of the
  WTF, removing itself from the leadership role of Taekwondo and taking on just the responsibilities of regulating the business of Taekwondo just inside of Korea
  (and partially the 7 foreign branches of the KTA that still exist today). However, the Kwan still influence the Kukkiwon today.

Any senior Korean instructor of Taekwondo was part of this history of the Korean Taekwondo Association. There were also a part of the testings and training that went on at the Korean Taekwondo Associations Central Gymnasium, today known as the Kukkiwon.

It's no secret that the ITF was directly involved with the Kukkiwon. After the ITF was formed in 1966, the ITF's deputy technical director was involved directly with the creation of the Korea Taekwondo Associations new curriculum that was first taught at it's Central Gymnasium, the same curriculum that is still taught at same building that housed the KTA's former Central Gymnasium, the Kukkiwon.  Do you know his name and what Kwan he was from?

So every Taekwondoin, even ITF members and former members - everyone of them - can trace their roots back through Kukkiwon's history.

If you think not, tell me what Kwan, the senior of that Kwan you feel does not have such roots, and I will explain it to you, in detail.

That's a fact.


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## Markku P (Apr 4, 2012)

puunui said:


> We acknowledge the origins of the art and show respect to those that developed it by issuing kukkiwon certification to the students. All I have is an American flag up on the wall, no Korean flag. When the kwan founders opened their dojang during the 1940's, they did not put up a japanese or okinawan flag on the wall. In turn, the dojo in Japan did not put up an Okinawan flag, and in Okinawa, they did not hang a Chinese flag on the wall.
> 
> I don't put Korean flags on my dobok either.
> 
> Funny thing is, I have students who have their own dojang who put the Korean flag on both the wall and their dobok. My attitude is it is their school and they can do whatever they want.



We have our National flag, Kukkiwon and WTF flags but no bowing for the flag. ( Uniforms can have national flags as a patch )

/Markku P.


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## puunui (Apr 4, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> OK, maybe it's just me, but this seems a lot like the Mormons going back in time converting the deceased to being Mormons whether they would have wanted it or not.



Actually not like that at all.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 4, 2012)

mastercole said:


> So every Taekwondoin, even ITF members and former members - everyone of them - can trace their roots back through Kukkiwon's history.
> 
> If you think not, tell me what Kwan, the senior of that Kwan you feel does not have such roots, and I will explain it to you, in detail.
> 
> That's a fact.



That is one of the reasons I used the date of 1974 or so as to what we may (OK you may not) consider to be the current incarnation of the KKW.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective.   Rather than saying my lineage is included in the KKW, I would take  a more egalitarian approach that The KKW and I share some common lineage.  The history can be traced to some common roots.


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## puunui (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because my lineage would have to include those I trained with who were never a part of the Kukkiwon. You're not trying to tell us that General Choi (and through him, the ITF in general) was secretly part of the Kukkiwon, are you?



He was part of the Chung Do Kwan, Oh Do Kwan and Korea Taekwondo Association, so yes he was part of the Kukkiwon, whether he liked it or not. There was also an Oh Do Kwan member (the Kwan Jang at the time) who was a member of the KTA's adhoc forms committee that created the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae that you practice now. So the Oh Do Kwan/ITF curriculum and tul have been included and incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae. They specifically included the Oh Do Kwan Jang so that past and present ITF would know that they were and are included in the process of unification under the Kukkiwon.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 4, 2012)

puunui said:


> He was part of the Chung Do Kwan, Oh Do Kwan and Korea Taekwondo Association, so yes he was part of the Kukkiwon, whether he liked it or not. There was also an Oh Do Kwan member (the Kwan Jang at the time) who was a member of the KTA's adhoc forms committee that created the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae that you practice now. So the Oh Do Kwan/ITF curriculum and tul have been included and incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae. They specifically included the Oh Do Kwan Jang so that past and present ITF would know that they were and are included in the process of unification under the Kukkiwon.



Using your own logic, since the ITF predates the Kukkiwon, it's more reasonable tom say that the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.
I find it amusing that you think people can be part of the Kukkiwon "whether [they] liked it or not".


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## mastercole (Apr 4, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> That is one of the reasons I used the date of 1974 or so as to what we may (OK you may not) consider to be the current incarnation of the KKW.
> 
> Perhaps it is a matter of perspective.   Rather than saying my lineage is included in the KKW, I would take  a more egalitarian approach that The KKW and I share some common lineage.  The history can be traced to some common roots.



Well, we have to look at exactly what the Kukkiwon was and is. It was opened in 1972 as the Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium and remained the KTA's central gym until 1980. Everything that is the Kukkiwon today came from all the Kwan, including Oh Do Kwan, it's members, and CHOI Hong Hi. That is your lineage, I think you have no other as far as Taekwondo is concerned.


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## mastercole (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Using your own logic, since the ITF predates the Kukkiwon, it's more reasonable tom say that the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.
> I find it amusing that you think people can be part of the Kukkiwon "whether [they] liked it or not".



CHOI Hong Hi was a leader of the Korea Taekwondo Association, a participant and an architect of the KTA's Central Gymnasium curriculum (along with other ITF members). CHOI Hong Hi even finalized the KTA name.

So, what part of the fact that the "Kukkiwon was the KTA central gym that CHOI Hong Hi helped create and presided over" do you not understand?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 4, 2012)

mastercole said:


> CHOI Hong Hi was a leader of the Korea Taekwondo Association, a participant and an architect of the KTA's Central Gymnasium curriculum (along with other ITF members). CHOI Hong Hi even finalized the KTA name.
> 
> So, what part of the fact that the "Kukkiwon was the KTA central gym that CHOI Hong Hi helped create and presided over" do you not understand?



Let's see... General Choi was the leader of the KTA, and founded the ITF. The KTA formed the Kukkiwon.

Yup. Looks like the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Let's see... General Choi was the leader of the KTA, and founded the ITF. The KTA formed the Kukkiwon.
> 
> Yup. Looks like the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.


Good point. Interesting.


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## puunui (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Using your own logic, since the ITF predates the Kukkiwon, it's more reasonable tom say that the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.



Actually no, because General Choi was exclusionary in its outlook and actions. So it wouldn't include the Kukkiwon, although it would be great if the ITF did include it. 



Dirty Dog said:


> I find it amusing that you think people can be part of the Kukkiwon "whether [they] liked it or not".



Not they, "he", meaning General Choi. Many members of the ITF have enjoyed the benefits of the Kukkiwon considering them to be included in Kukki Taekwondo, has have received Kukkiwon certification as a result. And again, the Oh Do Kwan directly contributed to both the poomsae and curriculum of the Kukkiwon.


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## puunui (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Let's see... General Choi was the leader of the KTA, and founded the ITF. The KTA formed the Kukkiwon.
> 
> Yup. Looks like the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.



problem is, the ITF doesn't see it that way, even though many former members of the ITF do see it that way, when they graciously accepted their kukkiwon certification. Perhaps even your own instructor or instructor's instructor did the same.


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## mastercole (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Let's see... General Choi was the leader of the KTA, and founded the ITF. The KTA formed the Kukkiwon.
> 
> Yup. Looks like the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.



You have your history in the wrong order.  in 1961 CHOI Hong Hi was a leader and architect of the KTA and the KTA Central Gymnasium.  The KTA Central Gymnasium existed before CHOI Hong Hi created his ITF in 1966. When he did create his ITF, all the new members where all members of the KTA.  Many remained members, even after Choi left Korea.

In 1973, KTA changed the name of their central gym to Kukkiwon. That did not change anything but the name, it still functioned as their central gymnasium until February 5, 1980, years after Choi has left South Korea.

The KTA Central Gymnasium (later re-named the Kukkiwon) predates the ITF's formation.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 4, 2012)

Undecided if I will hang a Korean flag in my (eventual) permanent dojang. I sell the flag patches and encourage students to wear them if they'd like. I don't but it's because they would be too busy on my dobok which is dressed up enough IMO. 

My last instructor and a very good friend of mine is South Korean, he does not wear a Korean flag, only a Canadian one. 

I don't think it's a good idea, it's still somewhat politically loaded, but I'd love to have a Republic of Newfoundland patch for my dobok. Can't find one and I wouldn't wear it right now if I could, but eventually.


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## mastercole (Apr 4, 2012)

Years ago I had flags hanging in the dojang. One's I brought back from other places, including a Korean flag. 

These days nothing hangs on the walls of my dojangs, any where. No flags, no dan certificates, pictures, nothing. My students are not allowed to wear a dobok that has a patch on it that was not made into the uniform by the manufacture (like Adidas, Mooto, etc). They are not allowed to wear stripes on their black belts in our dojang either. No personalized wild looking batman looking uniforms either. Just a v-neck dobok.  Of course any of that could change on a whim 

Exception is if a student travels with a team, they can wear that team uniform, or visitors can wear whatever they like, which has had it's humorous moments.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 4, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Years ago I had flags hanging in the dojang. One's I brought back from other places, including a Korean flag.
> 
> These days nothing hangs on the walls of my dojangs, any where. No flags, no dan certificates, pictures, nothing. My students are not allowed to wear a dobok that has a patch on it that was not made into the uniform by the manufacture (like Adidas, Mooto, etc). They are not allowed to wear stripes on their black belts in our dojang either. No personalized wild looking batman looking uniforms either. Just a v-neck dobok.  Of course any of that could change on a whim
> 
> Exception is if a student travels with a team, they can wear that team uniform, or visitors can wear whatever they like, which has had it's humorous moments.



Mastercole how strict are you on black collars? I have to admit I have a color belt who wears one. (My sister, 1st geup, I bought it for her because she was supposed to grade before she went in to surgery) and I used to wear one as a color belt. Just curious as to how you feel about it. 

Taekwondo Canada issues Dojang certificates, if I had a permanent dojang I'd have that one hung on the training floor. My own Dan certificates can stay out of the way, maybe in an office or at home. 

"Pending" is my Kukkiwon number at the moment, does the KKW issue dojang certificates? With any luck I'll get my KKW stuff shortly. I have to say I am very impressed with Taekwondo Canada and particularly with Ava Havaris, the current CEO. Great lady and it's a very tight ship now.


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## puunui (Apr 4, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> That is one of the reasons I used the date of 1974 or so as to what we may (OK you may not) consider to be the current incarnation of the KKW.



Kukkiwon was founded on November 30, 1972. 




Earl Weiss said:


> Perhaps it is a matter of perspective.   Rather than saying my lineage is included in the KKW, I would take  a more egalitarian approach that The KKW and I share some common lineage.  The history can be traced to some common roots.



What are those common roots? The Chung Do Kwan? Oh Do Kwan? KTA?


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## mastercole (Apr 4, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Mastercole how strict are you on black collars? I have to admit I have a color belt who wears one. (My sister, 1st geup, I bought it for her because she was supposed to grade before she went in to surgery) and I used to wear one as a color belt. Just curious as to how you feel about it.
> 
> Taekwondo Canada issues Dojang certificates, if I had a permanent dojang I'd have that one hung on the training floor. My own Dan certificates can stay out of the way, maybe in an office or at home.
> 
> "Pending" is my Kukkiwon number at the moment, does the KKW issue dojang certificates? With any luck I'll get my KKW stuff shortly. I have to say I am very impressed with Taekwondo Canada and particularly with Ava Havaris, the current CEO. Great lady and it's a very tight ship now.



Generally it is Poom collars for Poom holders, black colors for Dan holders, white collars for geup holders. Sometimes I can not get a certain Adidas Poom collar, so I get a black collar instead, but I try to avoid that. I stay to it as close as I logically can, being that I am such a logical person according to Dirty Dog


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 4, 2012)

That's about the only thing I am lax with, collars. I'll basically let anyone who is a 1st geup and needs a new dobok to get a black collared one instead of replacing it again after their Dan grading. I'm not picky on doboks in general but I have come around to the importance lately.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 4, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Generally it is Poom collars for Poom holders, black colors for Dan holders, white collars for geup holders. Sometimes I can not get a certain Adidas Poom collar, so I get a black collar instead, but I try to avoid that. I stay to it as close as I logically can, being that I am such a logical person according to Dirty Dog



I never said you were logical. My point was that trying to claim that people who specifically seperated themselves from the Kukkiwon were still part of the Kukkiwon is illlogical. I don't seriously think the KKW is part of the ITF. I think they are, very clearly, two seperate and distinctly different groups. Sorry that the point was too subtle for you.


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## mastercole (Apr 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I never said you were logical. My point was that trying to claim that people who specifically seperated themselves from the Kukkiwon were still part of the Kukkiwon is illlogical. I don't seriously think the KKW is part of the ITF. I think they are, very clearly, two seperate and distinctly different groups. Sorry that the point was too subtle for you.



Worth giving me a negative ding though, which was funny and weak on your part by the way. Actually, I'll try and earn it  

Here is how I see your comments, in general. I notice that your Taekwondo knowledge is seriously lacking in most of your post, you don't have any facts to back up what you say because who ever taught you did not share them with you, or did not have them to give, so "in my opinion" you generally answer with emotion and feelings based on mis-information. But that is OK, I try not to say to much to you about it though. I generally let it slide because I really don't care, actually. It's to bad that you have been feed such poor information about Taekwondo, it shows. But you are happy with that, so, it is what it is. Why change 

"I never gave anybody hell ... I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell." - Harry Truman


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## puunui (Apr 5, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> My point was that trying to claim that people who specifically seperated themselves from the Kukkiwon were still part of the Kukkiwon is illlogical.



If people choose to separate themselves, then that is their business. But that does not change the fact that their lineage is included within the kukkiwon, because all lineages tracing back to the five original kwan and the four annex kwan are included, by the kukkiwon. 

it's like this. You belong to a family. You choose for whatever reason to separate yourself from your family. Is it so hard to understand that your family still considers you as part of the family and leaves the door open for you to return if at some point you wish to do so in the future? 

You are looking at it from the point of view of the person who separated themselves from their family. mastercole and I are looking at it from the point of view of the family who considers every member, including those who separated, to be still part of the family. We are not scratching you off the family tree just because you got separated from the rest of your family by your father, grandfather or whoever. At some point the family feud will end, and you may wish to explore your family relationships. We are leaving the door open for you or anyone else to come back, if you so choose to do so.




Dirty Dog said:


> I don't seriously think the KKW is part of the ITF.



Are you a member of the ITF? 



Dirty Dog said:


> I think they are, very clearly, two seperate and distinctly different groups.



Not so separate as you might think, especially given the high numbers of senior ITF members who have received kukkiwon assimilation dan certification. There are probably more former ITF members who have kukkiwon certification than there are current ITF members. I know that is true for Hawaii, because I was the one who made the recommendation for the kukkiwon assimilation dan for those former ITF members. And they, like you, also practice the taeguek and yudanja poomsae.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 5, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Worth giving me a negative ding though, which was funny and weak on your part by the way. Actually, I'll try and earn it



You are accusing me of giving you negative rep, I presume. That is untrue. If someone dinged your rep, it was not me.

Your insulting comments deleted, I'll not respond to that.

Incidentially, I notice that I've been given negative rep for my comment :
I never said you were logical. My point was that trying to claim that people who specifically seperated themselves from the Kukkiwon were still part of the Kukkiwon is illlogical. I don't seriously think the KKW is part of the ITF. I think they are, very clearly, two seperate and distinctly different groups. Sorry that the point was too subtle for you.    

Unlike you, I won't accuse anybody. I'll merely state that unsigned rep, positive OR negative, means nothing to me.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> Are you a member of the ITF?



I wouldn't consider myself a member, no. It's been well over 20 years since I trained in an ITF dojang. Frankly, I don't consider myself a member of the Kukkiwon either.



puunui said:


> Not so separate as you might think, especially given the high numbers of senior ITF members who have received kukkiwon assimilation dan certification. There are probably more former ITF members who have kukkiwon certification than there are current ITF members. I know that is true for Hawaii, because I was the one who made the recommendation for the kukkiwon assimilation dan for those former ITF members. And they, like you, also practice the taeguek and yudanja poomsae.



So the Kukkiwon is the borg now? Got it. :rofl:


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 5, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I wouldn't consider myself a member, no. It's been well over 20 years since I trained in an ITF dojang. Frankly, I don't consider myself a member of the Kukkiwon either.
> 
> 
> 
> So the Kukkiwon is the borg now? Got it. :rofl:


you must remember you are dealing with the official "kukkiwon sign up commitee", who are here for one reason only, and that is to promote the kkw at every chance (even in a thread about a flag of all things). Everyone can see how one eyed they are but themselves. You make a very good point and most on here understand exactly where you are coming from. Some will never understand until they take their kukkiwon coloured glasses off.


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## mastercole (Apr 5, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You are accusing me of giving you negative rep, I presume. That is untrue. If someone dinged your rep, it was not me.
> 
> Your insulting comments deleted, I'll not respond to that.
> 
> ...



Whatever you say


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## mastercole (Apr 5, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> you must remember you are dealing with the official "kukkiwon sign up commitee", who are here for one reason only, and that is to promote the kkw at every chance (even in a thread about a flag of all things). Everyone can see how one eyed they are but themselves. You make a very good point and most on here understand exactly where you are coming from. Some will never understand until they take their kukkiwon coloured glasses off.



Kukkiwon does not need our help. But you might, unless you were able to find your grandmaster and ask him some of the questions your instructor could not answer for you


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 5, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Kukkiwon does not need our help. But you might, unless you were able to find your grandmaster and ask him some of the questions your instructor could not answer for you


You assume I care about those questions and answers. If I really wanted to, I have many channels within my club where I can obtain that info, including my GM himself (he is one phone call away, although I wouldnt bother him with such pointless questions). Do I want/need those questions answered, will it help improve me as a martial artist? I dont think so. If I happen to stumble accross that info, then great. Would I go out of my way to find out? No, it really doesnt interest me that much. Now, back to flags.......


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## mastercole (Apr 5, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You assume I care about those questions and answers. If I really wanted to, I have many channels within my club where I can obtain that info, including my GM himself (he is one phone call away, although I wouldnt bother him with such pointless questions). Do I want/need those questions answered, will it help improve me as a martial artist? I dont think so.



Right.................


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## jks9199 (Apr 5, 2012)

Folks,

MT Rules prohibit complaining about reputation points in-thread.  If you have a concern that rep points were improper, notify the Staff via the "Contact Us" link, and we'll look into it.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> Kukkiwon was founded on November 30, 1972.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, at least those. Even back further to Shotokan , Shorin & Shorei systems.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 5, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Well, we have to look at exactly what the Kukkiwon was and is. .



New thread started.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 5, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You assume I care about those questions and answers. If I really wanted to, I have many channels within my club where I can obtain that info, including my GM himself (he is one phone call away, although I wouldnt bother him with such pointless questions). Do I want/need those questions answered, will it help improve me as a martial artist? I dont think so. If I happen to stumble accross that info, then great. Would I go out of my way to find out? No, it really doesnt interest me that much. Now, back to flags.......



While I respect your point of view I would submit that the answers to these questions will absolutely make one a better martial artist. My Taekwondo experience has been greatly enriched by knowledge of my history.


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## Archtkd (Apr 5, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> 
> MT Rules prohibit complaining about reputation points in-thread.  If you have a concern that rep points were improper, notify the Staff via the "Contact Us" link, and we'll look into it.
> 
> ...



Some folks actually complain about such things?


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 5, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Some folks actually complain about such things?



Appaantly they do.


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## puunui (Apr 5, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I wouldn't consider myself a member, no. It's been well over 20 years since I trained in an ITF dojang. Frankly, I don't consider myself a member of the Kukkiwon either.



And yet you practice the Kukkiwon forms and try to do them to the Kukkiwon standards. Why is that? Do you have kukkiwon dan certification or no?




Dirty Dog said:


> So the Kukkiwon is the borg now? Got it. :rofl:



It's not like the borg because the borg does their thing by force. The Kukkiwon doesn't do that. People willingly made the switch from ITF to Kukkiwon certification. If you do not wish to convert your ITF dan to Kukkiwon dan, no one will force you to do so, unlike the borg.


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## puunui (Apr 5, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Kukkiwon does not need our help. But you might, unless you were able to find your grandmaster and ask him some of the questions your instructor could not answer for you



The Kukkiwon doesn't need our help, but I do believe that Kukkiwon is grateful that we are so willing to help out if we can. Too many people out there only know how to take from the Kukkiwon, and not give back. They take on one hand and then criticize and complain about the Kukkiwon on the other hand. If I wanted that action, I would go raise a spoiled child. "Ask not what your county can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." That's my presidential quote of the day....


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> And yet you practice the Kukkiwon forms and try to do them to the Kukkiwon standards. Why is that? Do you have kukkiwon dan certification or no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And the Borg don't hang out on forums bagging out their opposition at every opportunity. Or maybe they do, I don't watch star trek.


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## RobinTKD (Apr 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> If you do not wish to convert your ITF dan to Kukkiwon dan, no one will force you to do so.



Do you see it as a conversion? As you are aware Glenn, I have every intention of getting my Kukkiwon Dan certificate to go along side my ITF certification, but I don't see it as a full swap. To me Taekwondo is Taekwondo, no matter what organisation, some may wish to disagree, we all share the same lineage, both before and after the introduction of the KTA. I'll still practice the Chang Hon forms, along side the Taegueks, but with a Kukkiwon dan certificate, I'll start sparring in Shihap Kyorugi with the intention of entering some competitions.

I know it's naive, but I would like to see the ITF and KKW all come under one banner, and it seems to me there is apprehension about it in both camps, understandably so, maybe it's too late for that too happen and both organisations have become too long in the tooth. Only time will tell.


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## puunui (Apr 5, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> I know it's naive, but I would like to see the ITF and KKW all come under one banner, and it seems to me there is apprehension about it in both camps, understandably so, maybe it's too late for that too happen and both organisations have become too long in the tooth. Only time will tell.



It already happened, for all intents and purposes. The great majority of the ITF seniors left back in the 70's and early 80s and obtained their kukkiwon certification. Or they just left the ITF and did their own thing. Over the last ten years we have seen the ITF fracture into many groups and many just going their own separate way. Over time, this will happen again.


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## puunui (Apr 5, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> Do you see it as a conversion? I have every intention of getting my Kukkiwon Dan certificate to go along side my ITF certification, but I don't see it as a full swap. To me Taekwondo is Taekwondo, no matter what organisation, some may wish to disagree, we all share the same lineage, both before and after the introduction of the KTA. I'll still practice the Chang Hon forms, along side the Taegueks, but with a Kukkiwon dan certificate, I'll start sparring in Shihap Kyorugi with the intention of entering some competitions.



I don't know if conversion is the right word. I don't know what the correct word is when you take an ITF dan certificate and attempt to get the same kukkiwon rank. What would be the correct term for that?


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 5, 2012)

Its all relative, and works both ways. My korean neighbour, after many years of kukkiwon tkd switched over to ITF, so he would have ITF guys saying that he was "converted" to their style. Of course the "kkw sign up commitee" will tell you that very rarely, if ever, do kkw practitioners swap over to ITF, but then thats completely understandable considering the agenda they are pushing


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> And yet you practice the Kukkiwon forms and try to do them to the Kukkiwon standards. Why is that?



I practice forms, in general, because they're fun and because I believe there is something to be learned from their practice. The Palgwe and Yudanja forms are the mandatory forms at our school, so I practice them. The Chang Hon forms were my first, and in some ways still my favorites, so I practice them. I travel a fair bit, and if I choose to drop in to observe a class while traveling, the Taegeuks are more common than the Palgwes. So I practice them.



puunui said:


> Do you have kukkiwon dan certification or no?



Yes, I do.
I also have a birth certificate. Having one ALLOWS me to be an American citizen. It does not REQUIRE me to be one, any more than posessing a Kukkiwon Dan certificate requires me to be a member of the Kukkiwon.

My KKW Dan certificate is signed by the President of the KKW, as they are all. Doesn't really mean anything to me. On the back, it the signature and chop of our Kwan Jang. Now *that* means something to me. The certificate was presented to me framed. As soon as I got it home, I took the back off and carefully cut part of it away so as to make it possible to see the signature that matters to me.

The KKW, in this case, is more like the Department of Motor Vehicles than anything else.



puunui said:


> It's not like the borg because the borg does their thing by force. The Kukkiwon doesn't do that. People willingly made the switch from ITF to Kukkiwon certification. If you do not wish to convert your ITF dan to Kukkiwon dan, no one will force you to do so, unlike the borg.


Frankly, it's this more than anything else about you that I do not think I will ever understand. Your built in assumption is that it's a switch, rather than an addition. KKW certification is *in addition to*, not_* a*_ _*replacement for*_ my ITF training.


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## puunui (Apr 5, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I practice forms, in general, because they're fun and because I believe there is something to be learned from their practice. The Palgwe and Yudanja forms are the mandatory forms at our school, so I practice them. The Chang Hon forms were my first, and in some ways still my favorites, so I practice them. I travel a fair bit, and if I choose to drop in to observe a class while traveling, the Taegeuks are more common than the Palgwes. So I practice them.



How often do you run into dojang that teach the chang hon tul? 




Dirty Dog said:


> I also have a birth certificate. Having one ALLOWS me to be an American citizen. It does not REQUIRE me to be one, any more than posessing a Kukkiwon Dan certificate requires me to be a member of the Kukkiwon.



Having kukkiwon certification does not "REQUIRE" you to be "a member of the Kukkiwon", whatever that means. 



Dirty Dog said:


> My KKW Dan certificate is signed by the President of the KKW, as they are all. Doesn't really mean anything to me. On the back, it the signature and chop of our Kwan Jang. Now *that* means something to me. The certificate was presented to me framed. As soon as I got it home, I took the back off and carefully cut part of it away so as to make it possible to see the signature that matters to me.



ok. 



Dirty Dog said:


> The KKW, in this case, is more like the Department of Motor Vehicles than anything else.



Again, ok. 



Dirty Dog said:


> Frankly, it's this more than anything else about you that I do not think I will ever understand. Your built in assumption is that it's a switch, rather than an addition. KKW certification is *in addition to*, not_* a*_ _*replacement for*_ my ITF training.



Why wouldn't I understand? Frankly, I have seniors and juniors who, like you, who continue to practice and teach the chang hon tul, in addition to the kukkiwon poomsae, because they like them better. They, like you, learned those first, they like them more, and so they continue to train in them. These seniors include national team members, state presidents, national level officers, international referees, etc. They, like you, feel their kukkiwon knowledge, is in addition to their itf knowledge. If you wish to continue practicing your itf tul, then by all means continue. I'm certainly not trying to stop you, and frankly, neither is the kukkiwon.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 5, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I practice forms, in general, because they're fun and because I believe there is something to be learned from their practice. The Palgwe and Yudanja forms are the mandatory forms at our school, so I practice them. The Chang Hon forms were my first, and in some ways still my favorites, so I practice them. I travel a fair bit, and if I choose to drop in to observe a class while traveling, the Taegeuks are more common than the Palgwes. So I practice them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your last line hits the nail on the head. If I go and do some wing chun to have some extra skills in ADDITION to my tkd skills, it does not mean that I have been CONVERTED to wing chun. Just as someone can add to their credentials/skillset  by adding a kkw cerificate to their trophy room wall without being "converted" to kkw, whatever that means.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> How often do you run into dojang that teach the chang hon tul?



They're not all that hard to find, generally speaking. However, I live within spitting distance of the Olympic Training Center. Guess what's most common here?



puunui said:


> Why wouldn't I understand? Frankly, I have seniors and juniors who, like you, who continue to practice and teach the chang hon tul, in addition to the kukkiwon poomsae, because they like them better. They, like you, learned those first, they like them more, and so they continue to train in them. These seniors include national team members, state presidents, national level officers, international referees, etc. They, like you, feel their kukkiwon knowledge, is in addition to their itf knowledge. If you wish to continue practicing your itf tul, then by all means continue. I'm certainly not trying to stop you, and frankly, neither is the kukkiwon.



And yet, in every post, you talk about being "assimilated" and "converting". I do believe this is the very first time you've ever said anything that would indicate you have the slightest understanding of the concept. Intentional or not, your posts clearly give a "Kukkiwon Uber Alles/TKDBorg" impression. If that's your intention, then it's pretty silly. If it's not, you might want to reconsider your wording.


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## puunui (Apr 6, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> However, I live within spitting distance of the Olympic Training Center. Guess what's most common here?



mastercole and I will be in colorado springs in july. perhaps we can stop by your dojang. 



Dirty Dog said:


> And yet, in every post, you talk about being "assimilated" and "converting". I do believe this is the very first time you've ever said anything that would indicate you have the slightest understanding of the concept.



Wrong. Again. Go read through my posts carefully. I always state that it is your choice what you wish to do. I never force anyone to do what they do not wish to do. The only thing that I do ask is that if you are going to speak, please speak from a factual point of view, instead of an emotional one. 

The term "assimilation" is a kukkiwon term, not mine. It was a program in place from over 35 years ago which allowed ITF members to obtain equivalent Kukkiwon dan rank, IF THEY CHOSE TO. It was the ITF members who decided, not the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon simply left the door open for ITF members. If you don't like that, that, frankly, is your problem. Not mine.



Dirty Dog said:


> Intentional or not, your posts clearly give a "Kukkiwon Uber  Alles/TKDBorg" impression. If that's your intention, then it's pretty  silly. If it's not, you might want to reconsider your wording.



Or I could continue to post in the fashion that I do and you can consider reading my posts more carefully.


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