# Should submissions be taught to children?



## Makalakumu (Oct 20, 2005)

I've been mulling over this for two years and I've gone back and forth on the issue.  Should submissions be taught to children?  On one hand, I see them as any other technique in a MAists repetoire.  On the other, I see some developmental issues regarding a child's body and reasoning.  If you have any experience with this, please lend me your insight...

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


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## Andrew Green (Oct 20, 2005)

Yes, but as soon as things are in place the match is over.  Don't let them suck it up and keep trying to fight out.

 So if you are looking at a armbar, as soon as the arm is straight thats it, match is over.  Don't have them wrench at it till someone taps.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 20, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Yes, but as soon as things are in place the match is over. Don't let them suck it up and keep trying to fight out.
> 
> So if you are looking at a armbar, as soon as the arm is straight thats it, match is over. Don't have them wrench at it till someone taps.


This is kind of what I was thinking.  I know that kids learn judo and there is plenty of joint locking in that art.  The "How To" of their pedagogy is what I'm really interested in.

Also, I don't want anyone to get hurt because I made a poor choice regarding the techniques I taught.


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## arnisador (Oct 20, 2005)

I agree. They shouldn't be trying to see how long they can "tough it out" against a lock.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 20, 2005)

Apart form that just watch the types of locks you teach, as well as how much control there is before application.  So heel hook = bad idea...

 Also chokes, not as much because they are dangerous.  If done right they are probably one of the safest submissions, but it can cause a lot of panic in young kids, which means tears and them not having fun.  Parents don't like it much either


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## Navarre (Oct 20, 2005)

I agree with the concensus so far. In our jujitsu class one can't really help but learn certain locks. It is from a different perspective with the children's class though. Techniques are taken to the brink of lock, not to the point of pain. 

 There might be a small argument for developing a child's pain tolerance should they be assaulted.  It is far more beneficial however that they learn to execute the technique and understand when to apply it...or, more importantly, when not to.

 The goal of the child should be to protect themselves and create an opportunity to get out of the situation; nothing more. There's time later to practice for the UFC.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 20, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Also chokes, not as much because they are dangerous. If done right they are probably one of the safest submissions, but it can cause a lot of panic in young kids, which means tears and them not having fun. Parents don't like it much either


This poses a problem, there are a lots of choking techniques in our kata.  If you had to teach these to kids, how would you do it?  Could a kid get beyond the panic or are they to immature?


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## Lisa (Oct 20, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> This poses a problem, there are a lots of choking techniques in our kata.  If you had to teach these to kids, how would you do it?  Could a kid get beyond the panic or are they to immature?



Depends on the kid and their skill level.  Both my daughters have been choked repeatedly and have be taught to apply chokes.  They are 11 and 15.  I believe it is the way they are taught and the way it is presented.  However, since my youngest is in the child's class she does not do the chokes to the other children, only when sparring with her instructor (which btw, she does at every opportunity  )  My oldest is in the adult class, chokes are given and received, skills are practiced to counter them.


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## Navarre (Oct 20, 2005)

I think kids can, and should, get over the panic reaction.  They need to maintain as much composure as their maturity level will allow should they be assaulted on the street. The more they are introduced to the feeling of contact the less likely it will overwhelm them.

 However, it is clearly a matter of degree. Locking a choke down on a kid is not necessary. At that age they already feel powerless against the adult. It is better to allow them to acclimate slowly; slower than we expect adults to.  

 I would start by working on simple body contact. Let them realize that someone does not hurt me simply by grabbing my collar. Many ppl are already panicking at this point but they shouldn't. 

 The grab isn't the problem, it's the attack that comes right behind it. And, with a small amount of experience, we welcome the grab because it gives us a handle to his body and a sense of his movements.  

 From there I would work on simple escapes, not locks. Show them how to turn out of a wrist grab or apply simple thumb pressure against a grab to the collar. Show them how body movement, turning to the angle, can both protect the body and set up for escape.

 As we move into actual locks, again, they should not be fully locked only drawn into position.  Reinforce a technique over and over. Although variety in the arsenal is preferable, at this age they will initiate a move better by repetition.

 My goals with children are primarily to reduce the panic reaction of body contact, instill the idea of escape, and to reinforce a small but solid arsenal of techniques.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 20, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> I think kids can, and should, get over the panic reaction. They need to maintain as much composure as their maturity level will allow should they be assaulted on the street. The more they are introduced to the feeling of contact the less likely it will overwhelm them.
> 
> However, it is clearly a matter of degree. Locking a choke down on a kid is not necessary. At that age they already feel powerless against the adult. It is better to allow them to acclimate slowly; slower than we expect adults to.
> 
> ...


When I think of grappling and submissions, I am thinking of an MMA environment.  The other thread was started in order to get a more traditional art perspective.


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## Navarre (Oct 20, 2005)

oh, okay. My experience is with ju-jitsu, but from a self-defense perspective as opposed to any sort of sport.


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## Eternal Beginner (Oct 20, 2005)

If taught by a good instructor who stresses respect for the technique I have no problems with kids being taught submissions.  My son competes and some tournaments go to submission and some go strictly by time and points with no subs allowed.  Both have merits.

 The instructor is key however.  Children shouldn't be taught such things as flying armbars,yes, I've seen it done!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The 9 year old boy tried it on his mother and almost broke her leg when he did it wrong and hit her leg.  A simple armbar, yes - not letting it get extended fully, but not such techniques that are hard for even adults to control.

 In my children's class the instructor hasn't had problems with teaching chokes as they are taught positioning and how to control it from day one.  In fact, last year we had one little girl(only 6) who cleaned up at a tournament by choking out every single opponent.  She used a variety of gi chokes plus a RNC.  So it is possible and can be done without tears and fear if you have a good instructor.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2005)

I'm not sure it is a responsible thing to do. An instructor could be teachings tens or hundreds of children; and, it would be a gamble to assume they all have the moral muturity to not missuse these teactics.
Sean


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## hardheadjarhead (Oct 20, 2005)

I think 15 is a good age to start teaching the techniques.  I wouldn't teach a kid to do a submission before that.  I'd simply have them work on non-submission grappling, fighting for position, reversals, some mild take downs, etc.  

I know other schools do it earlier.  If I had the time to devote to such a program, I might consider teaching submissions as early as thirteen...but I'd look at how others are doing it.


Regards,


Steve


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