# When the pursuit of "not being a sport" goes wrong...



## Hanzou (Jan 30, 2016)

Earlier I posted a thread about Bjj ground and pound defenses. Here is a different take on ground and pound from a more "traditional" perspective;






Having been under a mount more times than I care to admit, *none* of what was shown in that video is effective. Self defense, or otherwise, what was shown wouldn't be much help to you if someone is on top of you trying to bash your head in.

In the description, the poster made it a point to say that this is different than "sport" ground fighting. Imust say, the pursuit of "not being a sport" can be quite detrimental to the development of effective techniques. Clearly these guys were trying to avoid looking like Judo/Bjj newaza which has been proven to be effective on multiple levels from training, to competition, to self defense, and instead developed their own variation and ended up with some rather shoddy results.


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## Steve (Jan 30, 2016)

I agree that the video is just ridiculous.  I also totally agree with your premise.  It's just painful to see things like this.

I think it's great that hatsumi moves so well at his age.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 30, 2016)

There's knowing the differences between sport and self defense and then there's just making it up.  This is clearly in the latter category.

Anyone who thinks judo/bjj newaza is for sport rather than self defense is making up a false dichotomy.  They were made for self defense, they just happened to work well for the purpose of sport when the time came to put it to the test but to pretend that this somehow retcons their effectiveness for self-defense is 100% pure unadulterated larping.  Obviously there are specific, isolated sports techniques that I wouldn't use in a self-defense situation (stalling newaza positions in judo for a free standup, for example) but really, any idiot should know better when it comes to that.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Here is a different take on ground and pound from a more "traditional" perspective;



im not a Bujinkan guy or have any knowledge of Hatsumi's stuff outside of books from him and Hayes, but this does not look "traditional" to me.  it seems to be more of Hatsumi trying to have an answer to the popularity of MMA and trying to be relevant in todays world. that being said if the OP is trying to show that TMA sucks for real world application or that it sucks when compared to MMA, i dont think this was a good representation of traditional.  what it does show is that you cant be a master in one art and expect to be effective in something you never really did before.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 30, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> if the OP is trying to show that TMA sucks for real world application or that it sucks when compared to MMA



He wasn't.  He was trying to show that you can only go so far with the dichotomy between "self defense" and "MMA/NHB/Vale Tudo" before it becomes manufactured and dilutes the *s*hit out of your system.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 30, 2016)

ok i will agree with that.
one thing i would like to point out is that we really have no idea what Hatsumi was actually showing. there is no dialog or input from him in the clip. so for all i know he was showing what not to do and someone posted it for their own purpose.  it is possible that he was assuming the students knew "buck and roll" and other ways to get out of the position and was just blowing past that to get to a few small things you could add to it.  but if it is as it looks ill admit it is rather sad.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 30, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> i dont think this was a good representation of traditional


I don't think it was a good representation for anything. It was pretty poorly performed.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2016)

Skullpunch said:


> He wasn't.  He was trying to show that you can only go so far with the dichotomy between "self defense" and "MMA/NHB/Vale Tudo" before it becomes manufactured and dilutes the *s*hit out of your system.


Of course he was.  That's what he does, that is his motive for being here.  He searches for bad examples (which I agree there are plenty of) and then uses those to push his case that all things TMA suck.  Whether or not Hatsumi's examples in that video suck isn't for me to judge.

I thought Hanzou and I had something of a breakthrough yesterday in the sparring thread, on the subject of forms.  I had hoped that might carry over into the larger debate of TMA vs, MMA, but I see that sadly, I was wrong.

There is just way way too much of this in Hanzou's posting history to be able to pretend this is anything but another jab at TMA as a whole.


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## Hanzou (Jan 30, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course he was.  That's what he does, that is his motive for being here.  He searches for bad examples (which I agree there are plenty of) and then uses those to push his case that all things TMA suck.  Whether or not Hatsumi's examples in that video suck isn't for me to judge.
> 
> I thought Hanzou and I had something of a breakthrough yesterday in the sparring thread, on the subject of forms.  I had hoped that might carry over into the larger debate of TMA vs, MMA, but I see that sadly, I was wrong.
> 
> There is just way way too much of this in Hanzou's posting history to be able to pretend this is anything but another jab at TMA as a whole.




I don't know enough about Ninjutsu to pass judgement on the art as a whole. However, I know enough about newaza to know that the techniques in that vid were bunk.

I do believe that the goal was to create a system of techniques that were "non-sport", and as another poster said, to address the popularity of MMA. No different than what we saw from the WC anti-grappling vids.

The problem is that those "sport techniques" work regardless, and attempting to deviate too far from science and common sense can have dire consequences. If you seek to bring ground fighting into your system, there is no shame in simply incorporating Bjj or another proven grappling system into style.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 30, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> There is just way way too much of this in Hanzou's posting history to be able to pretend this is anything but another jab at TMA as a whole.



Judo and BJJ are both more traditional than ninjitsu, at least according to the way I define the word "traditional", so I don't quite see how this adds up?  They're both more or less styles of wrestling and the way I see it wrestling is about as traditional as a martial art can possibly get.

Anyway, I'm just taking Hanzou's post at face value, for the purpose of this discussion and the specific dialogue that we're having I couldn't care less about his previous jabs at whatever styles, those are another can of worms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2016)

You can repeat 10,000 "hip throw" in "partner drill", it still doesn't mean that you can pull your "hip throw" out on the mat. If you just train "partner drill" as shown in that clip, you can "develop" some skill. Until you can "test" your skill in sparring/wrestling, you truly don't have that skill yet.

The problem for self-defense approach is you don't have a good safe environment to "test" your skill. One day you get old, you no longer "test" your skill in the ring or on the mat, you invent some new skills. Since you think those new skills "should" work in the ring or on the mat, you teach it to your students. Now some untested skills have been passed down from one generation to the next generation. This is the general problem for the TMA - old teachers pass down un-tested skills to students.

In "sport" approach, it's very easy to separate "high successful rate skills" vs. "low successful rate skills". In "self-defense" approach, you don't have that advantage.


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## Steve (Jan 30, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> im not a Bujinkan guy or have any knowledge of Hatsumi's stuff outside of books from him and Hayes, but this does not look "traditional" to me.  it seems to be more of Hatsumi trying to have an answer to the popularity of MMA and trying to be relevant in todays world. that being said if the OP is trying to show that TMA sucks for real world application or that it sucks when compared to MMA, i dont think this was a good representation of traditional.  what it does show is that you cant be a master in one art and expect to be effective in something you never really did before.


Agreed.   I'd be reluctant to draw any conclusions from this.  At the same time, I'd really question the bias of anyone who tries to rationalize this, too.    whatever else might be good out there, this ain't it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm pretty certain that none of the techniques shown in that video are traditional to any of the 9 ryu that make up the Bujinkan. Rather they are creative expressions of Hatsumi's movement based on the principles he has derived from those arts.

Unfortunately, Hatsumi has reached the point in his life where his ukes essentially go along with whatever he demonstrates rather than react to his techniques in any sort of realistic manner. In the absence of any sort of meaningful feedback, some of his creative expressions become pretty detached from reality. I'd say it's less of an issue with "sport" vs "street" and more of a problem with putting a teacher on too high of a pedestal.

I do think that there are some important distinctions to bear in mind between "sport" and "street", but I think it's a mistake to believe the demarcation is in any way absolute.

I had the privilege of spending some time training and trading knowledge with @yak sao earlier today. He got me started on the fundamentals of Wing Tsun and I shared some BJJ with him. He has no interest in sport grappling competition. The main thing he wanted from BJJ was some tips on protecting himself and getting safely back to his feet in the event that he were to be taken to the ground in a fight. We covered a few of the more common scenarios of how that might happen in a street fight and (since sport rules were irrelevant), we touched on the use of and defense against groin strikes, head butts, and eye gouges in that context. Even though we dealt with those "street" tactics, they were in the context of fundamental movements, structures, and techniques that are used all the time in sport BJJ. The _structure_ is the same - the _application_ is just modified appropriately for the context.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2016)

Skullpunch said:


> Judo and BJJ are both more traditional than ninjitsu, at least according to the way I define the word "traditional", so I don't quite see how this adds up?  They're both more or less styles of wrestling and the way I see it wrestling is about as traditional as a martial art can possibly get.
> 
> Anyway, I'm just taking Hanzou's post at face value, for the purpose of this discussion and the specific dialogue that we're having I couldn't care less about his previous jabs at whatever styles, those are another can of worms.


Nope it's going to be the same can of worms.. just different post lol


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## Buka (Jan 30, 2016)

I hope somebody stops me from being in front of a camera when I'm eighty four. Just because.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2016)

Here is a different take on ground and pound from a more "traditional" perspective;
When your opponent is on the ground, don't get on the ground with them, remain standing and deliver some basic traditional kicks.


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2016)

Self defence is an addition to your basic methods.

So in this specific instance. Make your basic ground defence work. Then look for a whole raft of dirty deeds to add to that.

Where it fails is people who have fallen and can't get up because they are terrible practitioners of martial arts. So instead of getting good. They cheat.

Martial arts is an arms race. So if you are crap and he is crap. But you are dirtier you have an advantage. If he is good and you are crap then he has the advantage.

This is almost universal. If he is fundamentally good. He can apply dirty techniques better than you can if you are crap. This is because the ability to apply any technique relies on your basic skill level.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2016)

just some more basic kicks.  




The point is that just because someone takes a defensive position on their back doesn't mean that the next thing that will happen is a ground and pound.  If general traditional martial arts perspective exist it would probably be that being on the ground is a bad thing so do everything you can to not end up on the ground or to get up from the ground.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 30, 2016)

Buka said:


> I hope somebody stops me from being in front of a camera when I'm eighty four. Just because.


Nah, it's cool as long as your demo partners aren't trying to sell the notion that you're still* a magical anime warrior who can send them all flying just by waving your hands.

*(I mean, obviously you could do that when you were younger, but those powers start to fade by age 75 at the latest.)


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> just some more basic kicks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is an emphasis on getting up off the ground.
Demian Maia vs Gunnar Nelson Full Fight UFC 194 Part 4 MMA Video


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## Hanzou (Jan 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> The point is that just because someone takes a defensive position on their back doesn't mean that the next thing that will happen is a ground and pound.  If general traditional martial arts perspective exist it would probably be that being on the ground is a bad thing so do everything you can to not end up on the ground or to get up from the ground.



The more pressing question is what does the traditional martial artist do if THEY are the ones on the ground getting pounded in the face.

Typically the response is "we just don't end up on the ground", and that is complete and utter nonsense.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> just some more basic kicks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From a street self-defense training standpoint, it's good to practice defenses on the ground against

kicks from a standing opponent
punches from a standing opponent
ground-n-pound from an opponent who is on the ground on top of you
grappling from an opponent who is on top of you
weapons attacks from an opponent who is over you (either standing or not)
(That last is by far the hardest situation to deal with.)

Getting to the feet safely and efficiently is a vital skill. However if you don't first understand how to protect yourself while you are down, you have an excellent chance of taking major damage while you are trying to get up.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> The more pressing question is what does the traditional martial artist do if THEY are the ones on the ground getting pounded in the face.
> 
> Typically the response is "we just don't end up on the ground", and that is complete and utter nonsense.


What the traditional martial artist does depends on the fighting system in question.  Not everyone one has the same approach or even uses the same techniques.  So you'll have to go system by system to see what they do if anything.  The reason I say if anything, because if the ground fighting techniques aren't taught then there aren't going to be many answers to the ground and pound.  This doesn't mean that there aren't any ground fighting techniques to deal with the ground and pound, it could just mean that it's not taught.  In some cases it will be that there is no answer for the fighting system.  But you'll have to research beyond youtube to really know what's techniques are available.

There's an assumption is that it's easy to take people to the ground and do ground and pound, but that's usually against people who don't train against people who are trying to put them on the ground.  From a self-defense point of view, a person is going to have the benefit of being able to use the environment to play a part of their defense, but most people don't think that way because they only see self-defense as fighting.  Depending on who is around, an attempt to ground and pound could put a person in this situation.




While ground and pound rules in the ring, there's no guarantee that it will be equally as effective in a self defense situation. 

If I feel my footing is better I may decide to fight near a curb where I can step up or down.  If there are steps near by then I may decide to see how well that person can fight on the steps. Even the incline of a hill may help me in preventing someone from taking me down to pound my face in.  

My educated guess is that not many BJJ practitioners practice fighting on the side of a hill. The only thing I know is that I do.


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## Hanzou (Jan 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> What the traditional martial artist does depends on the fighting system in question.  Not everyone one has the same approach or even uses the same techniques.  So you'll have to go system by system to see what they do if anything.  The reason I say if anything, because if the ground fighting techniques aren't taught then there aren't going to be many answers to the ground and pound.  This doesn't mean that there aren't any ground fighting techniques to deal with the ground and pound, it could just mean that it's not taught.  In some cases it will be that there is no answer for the fighting system.  But you'll have to research beyond youtube to really know what's techniques are available.
> 
> There's an assumption is that it's easy to take people to the ground and do ground and pound, but that's usually against people who don't train against people who are trying to put them on the ground.  From a self-defense point of view, a person is going to have the benefit of being able to use the environment to play a part of their defense, but most people don't think that way because they only see self-defense as fighting.



I never said that takedowns are easy, I'm saying that the belief that you'll never get taken down is nonsense. If wrestlers and Judoka can get taken down by random jerks, ANYONE can.




> Depending on who is around, an attempt to ground and pound could put a person in this situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Again, the person doing the ground and pound isn't the person I'm talking about. I'm talking about the person on the ground getting their face turned into hamburger. 

You can't always depend on your mom to save you.



> If I feel my footing is better I may decide to fight near a curb where I can step up or down.  If there are steps near by then I may decide to see how well that person can fight on the steps. Even the incline of a hill may help me in preventing someone from taking me down to pound my face in.



So we're back to the notion that you can't get taken down. Gotcha.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is an emphasis on getting up off the ground.


If your opponent 

- drags you down, his hands are still on you, it may be difficult to get back up fast.
- throws you down, his hands are not on you, it may be possible to get back up fast.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I never said that takedowns are easy, I'm saying that the belief that you'll never get taken down is nonsense. If wrestlers and Judoka can get taken down by random jerks, ANYONE can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope.  That's just you misreading things again to fit your bias.  I've never said that I could never get taken down.   As a martial artist I never assume that something can't happen to me.


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## Hanzou (Jan 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Nope.  That's just you misreading things again to fit your bias.  I've never said that I could never get taken down.   As a martial artist I never assume that something can't happen to me.



Okay, so what are some Jow Ga strategies for when you end up on the ground? On top, or when they're circling around for a soccer kick?


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## seasoned (Jan 30, 2016)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS*:_

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Wes Yager
Martial Talk Senior Moderator.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, so what are some Jow Ga strategies for when you end up on the ground? On top, or when they're circling around for a soccer kick?


  On the ground before they get on top, we are taught to get up quickly if we can do that without being kicked in the head.  If we can't then we stay on the ground to create some distance.  We do something similar to this but ,the way that we do it in the school allows us to do more than just get up and that one kick. 





If someone is on top of me trying to pound my face then I would bring them close to me.  One this helps me to prevent him from kicking him in his face and it puts me into a good position to use Chin Na techniques.  There are some Chin Na techniques that work both standing and on the ground.  If the Chin Na technique is successful then there will be no more grounding and pounding or grabbing. If it's not successful then it's a reset to prevent my face from being bashed in and then apply a different technique.

Someone circling around for a soccer kick is no big deal mainly because he's not trying to come to the ground, which would be a bigger problem for a kung fu practitioner.  If he's just circling around then there are a variety of strikes that can be done from the ground that are in my system.  The main thing is that a weak root is a weak root regardless of if I'm attacking the root while standing up or attacking from the ground.

For many styles of kung fu, getting off the ground doesn't always means standing up in a general fight position, it just simply means on both feet.  In Jow Ga this would qualify as "getting up."


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## Hanzou (Jan 31, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> On the ground before they get on top, we are taught to get up quickly if we can do that without being kicked in the head.  If we can't then we stay on the ground to create some distance.  We do something similar to this but ,the way that we do it in the school allows us to do more than just get up and that one kick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Jow. That's all I was asking for.


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## Buka (Jan 31, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> On the ground before they get on top, we are taught to get up quickly if we can do that without being kicked in the head.  If we can't then we stay on the ground to create some distance.  We do something similar to this but ,the way that we do it in the school allows us to do more than just get up and that one kick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's pretty much how I was taught BJJ on day one. That and sprawling. I'm glad I was taught that way, it not only helped a lot, but I find the very first thing you learn in a new endeavor tends to stay with you naturally.

As for hills, I hate hills. Hills and stairs. I suck on both.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 31, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I don't know enough about Ninjutsu to pass judgement on the art as a whole.


When has that ever stopped you?


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## Hanzou (Jan 31, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> When has that ever stopped you?



There's a difference between being critical and saying that a system is bunk.

Now, would I recommend Ninjutsu to someone seeking to study MA? Probably not. However, I do see value in learning the art if its benefits are what you're looking for.


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## FriedRice (Jan 31, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> On the ground before they get on top, we are taught to get up quickly if we can do that without being kicked in the head.
> 
> If someone is on top of me trying to pound my face then I would bring them close to me.  One this helps me to prevent him from kicking him in his face and it puts me into a good position to use Chin Na techniques.



IMO, you KF guys had your chance in UFC 1-4 but couldn't solve the Royce Gracie BJJ riddle.  UFC 1-4 had  ZERO DISQUALIFYING RULES. You could have done anything you wanted.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> IMO, you KF guys had your chance in UFC 1-4 but couldn't solve the Royce Gracie BJJ riddle.


You are right and I wish more highly skilled Kung Fu practitioners would have participated.  It was a missed opportunity for them to really learn more about their KF system and training.
The one thing that many martial arts schools don't do much of is spar against other fighting systems so they never have an opportunity to learn how to apply their techniques against a different style.

This is why the UFC was so successful, it wasn't boxer against boxer, it wasn't karate against karate.  it was fighting system vs what ever fighting system was in the ring.

Those early fighters took that experience and used it to teach and train in their own fighting system from different approaches. 

Instead of thinking. "If a guy throws a jab, then you do this."  It's become more about understanding the fighting system that you have to fight against, what are the strengths and weaknesses of that system.  How do I approach that system with the techniques that I know.  Kung fu missed out on an excellent opportunity.  The good thing is that now Kung Fu schools and other martial art school are more open with going against other systems.  Hopefully 10 years from now there will be better fighters who are able to use those kung fu techniques more effectively.

I think without MMA alot of martial arts would have continued on the path of forms performances and never really learning how to fight beyond point sparring and demos


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## FriedRice (Jan 31, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> You are right and I wish more highly skilled Kung Fu practitioners would have participated.  It was a missed opportunity for them to really learn more about their KF system and training.
> The one thing that many martial arts schools don't do much of is spar against other fighting systems so they never have an opportunity to learn how to apply their techniques against a different style.



Jason DeLucia was not only a highly skilled Kung-Fu guy, but I think he also fought in those kind of mixed tournaments.  He was the Kung-Fu guy who eye gouged  Royce Gracie in trying to get out of a  hold.....that's why you see Royce not letting go of his arm from that belly down, armbar....he started tapping furiously and the Ref had to jump in to pull him off...and the announcer said that "his elbow is popped". I thought Gracie was a dick for breaking the guy's arm....but Gracie said he was getting eye gouged and this is how they deal with it in Brazil.   DeLucia fought Royce in some closed gym setting, just right before that UFC 2 event and lost also, so he knew what he was getting in to. It's on YouTube. Another CMA guy was Steve Faulkner, an accomplished Wing Chun guy. The Karateka from Japan in UFC 2, was also supposed to be another good fighter. Patrick Smith was a decent K-1 kickboxer with a TKD background. Gordeau or something, was a big name Savate fighter who bit Gracie, so another case where the Ref had to jump on Gracie to get him off of Gordeau. 

There always existed Style vs. Style grudge matches, especially in Asia. The Asians really seem to get into that, especially w/national pride and their countries being next to each other. Muay Thai   often gets pitted against Karate and Kung-Fu, ie. in K-1.  And certainly, in Brazil's Vale Tudo....where the Gracies reigned for 50+ years. That was the Gracie's main schtick....to prove their BJJ is superior. I'm glad to see though, that more, so-called TMA techniques are coming back....even though most to all of them do exist in Muay Thai...but in general MT, it's just the vanilla Muay Thai that we see in MMA and it's getting real boring. My favorite fighter to watch is probably Anderson Silva and a close 2nd is Cung Le.


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## Buka (Jan 31, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Jason DeLucia was not only a highly skilled Kung-Fu guy, but I think he also fought in those kind of mixed tournaments.  He was the Kung-Fu guy who eye gouged  Royce Gracie in trying to get out of a  hold.....that's why you see Royce not letting go of his arm from that belly down, armbar....he started tapping furiously and the Ref had to jump in to pull him off...and the announcer said that "his elbow is popped". I thought Gracie was a dick for breaking the guy's arm....but Gracie said he was getting eye gouged and this is how they deal with it in Brazil.   DeLucia fought Royce in some closed gym setting, just right before that UFC 2 event and lost also, so he knew what he was getting in to. It's on YouTube. Another CMA guy was Steve Faulkner, an accomplished Wing Chun guy. The Karateka from Japan in UFC 2, was also supposed to be another good fighter. Patrick Smith was a decent K-1 kickboxer with a TKD background. Gordeau or something, was a big name Savate fighter who bit Gracie, so another case where the Ref had to jump on Gracie to get him off of Gordeau.
> 
> There always existed Style vs. Style grudge matches, especially in Asia. The Asians really seem to get into that, especially w/national pride and their countries being next to each other. Muay Thai   often gets pitted against Karate and Kung-Fu, ie. in K-1.  And certainly, in Brazil's Vale Tudo....where the Gracies reigned for 50+ years. That was the Gracie's main schtick....to prove their BJJ is superior. I'm glad to see though, that more, so-called TMA techniques are coming back....even though most to all of them do exist in Muay Thai...but in general MT, it's just the vanilla Muay Thai that we see in MMA and it's getting real boring. My favorite fighter to watch is probably Anderson Silva and a close 2nd is Cung Le.





FriedRice said:


> Jason DeLucia was not only a highly skilled Kung-Fu guy, but I think he also fought in those kind of mixed tournaments.  He was the Kung-Fu guy who eye gouged  Royce Gracie in trying to get out of a  hold.....that's why you see Royce not letting go of his arm from that belly down, armbar....he started tapping furiously and the Ref had to jump in to pull him off...and the announcer said that "his elbow is popped". I thought Gracie was a dick for breaking the guy's arm....but Gracie said he was getting eye gouged and this is how they deal with it in Brazil.   DeLucia fought Royce in some closed gym setting, just right before that UFC 2 event and lost also, so he knew what he was getting in to. It's on YouTube. Another CMA guy was Steve Faulkner, an accomplished Wing Chun guy. The Karateka from Japan in UFC 2, was also supposed to be another good fighter. Patrick Smith was a decent K-1 kickboxer with a TKD background. Gordeau or something, was a big name Savate fighter who bit Gracie, so another case where the Ref had to jump on Gracie to get him off of Gordeau.
> 
> There always existed Style vs. Style grudge matches, especially in Asia. The Asians really seem to get into that, especially w/national pride and their countries being next to each other. Muay Thai   often gets pitted against Karate and Kung-Fu, ie. in K-1.  And certainly, in Brazil's Vale Tudo....where the Gracies reigned for 50+ years. That was the Gracie's main schtick....to prove their BJJ is superior. I'm glad to see though, that more, so-called TMA techniques are coming back....even though most to all of them do exist in Muay Thai...but in general MT, it's just the vanilla Muay Thai that we see in MMA and it's getting real boring. My favorite fighter to watch is probably Anderson Silva and a close 2nd is Cung Le.



Jason DeLucia originally went to Rorian's school to get into a challenge match. He succeed in his goal and lost quickly.  He immediately signed up and trained there where he was well liked. (I applaud that, good for him) In UFC1 he was an alternate, filling in vs Trent Jenkins to fill time because all the UFC matches were over so quickly. He won in under a minute, _using an RNC he had learned at Rorians._

Patrick Smith was a troubled guy. Extremely talented but completely unprepared for UFC1. Poor guy drew Shamrock.
Gerard Gordeau was a great kickboxer and breezed his way through his first two fights. Versus Royce he got caught in an outside trip (the second one Royce tried) and went down on his back, Royce in top position. Gordeau knew he was done but he was one of those guys. (debt collector and leg breaker in Amsterdam) So he bit Royce in the ear then went for a headlock, which Royce slipped and rolled Gordeau onto his back. He went for an RNC, missed, headbutted (legal then) used a second RNC and finished him.

Ah, the good old days.


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## Hanzou (Jan 31, 2016)

Buka said:


> Jason DeLucia originally went to Rorian's school to get into a challenge match. He succeed in his goal and lost quickly.  He immediately signed up and trained there where he was well liked. (I applaud that, good for him) In UFC1 he was an alternate, filling in vs Trent Jenkins to fill time because all the UFC matches were over so quickly. He won in under a minute, _using an RNC he had learned at Rorians._
> 
> Patrick Smith was a troubled guy. Extremely talented but completely unprepared for UFC1. Poor guy drew Shamrock.
> Gerard Gordeau was a great kickboxer and breezed his way through his first two fights. Versus Royce he got caught in an outside trip (the second one Royce tried) and went down on his back, Royce in top position. Gordeau knew he was done but he was one of those guys. (debt collector and leg breaker in Amsterdam) So he bit Royce in the ear then went for a headlock, which Royce slipped and rolled Gordeau onto his back. He went for an RNC, missed, headbutted (legal then) used a second RNC and finished him.
> ...



Along those same lines, here's an interesting article about how MMA is pressuring Kung Fu in mainland China;

A Shaolin Monk Tries Mixed Martial Arts | FIGHTLAND


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 1, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Along those same lines, here's an interesting article about how MMA is pressuring Kung Fu in mainland China;
> 
> A Shaolin Monk Tries Mixed Martial Arts | FIGHTLAND


I just hope he doesn't trade in his Kung Fu.
I don't think any fighting system should trade in their style for MMA.  The person should learn how to apply the existing style against MMA fighters.  This is what made BJJ good. They take the experience of fighting against other fighters, bring it back to the school, and teach the existing techniques in the context of fighting against other fighting systems.
If I do Kung Fu and trade my Kung Fu techniques for MMA techniques then I haven't done anything to help me learn how to apply Kung Fu against an MMA fighter.  I would be a better MMA fighter than I was before, but I won't be a better Kung Fu fighter.

The Gracies went back to the system and used the experience to make the system better.  I think this is the key of making any fighting system good.  That fighter has to go back to the school and have the mindset of "Hey, this is what Karate did to me, this is what MT did to me, this is what BJJJ, boxing,etc. did to me.  Now which of our existing techniques will help us defend and attack a practitioner from each system."

Too often Kung Fu and other martial arts are treated as a one size fits all solution and that's never any good. Unfortunately there are many kung fu, karate, and other types of martial arts systems that don't have a reference approach to fighting. It's more of a general, if someone punches and if someone kicks.  MT, Boxers,Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ all have different ways of punching and those different ways have to be factored into how a technique is applied.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 1, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> IMO, you KF guys had your chance in UFC 1-4 but couldn't solve the Royce Gracie BJJ riddle. UFC 1-4 had ZERO DISQUALIFYING RULES. You could have done anything you wanted.


I, for one, was not aware ALL of Kung Fu competed in UFC 1-4.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 1, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> From a street self-defense training standpoint, it's good to practice defenses on the ground against
> 
> kicks from a standing opponent
> punches from a standing opponent
> ...



Yesterday afternoon a friend brought some training knives to our workout, so we spent a couple of hours sparring and training grappling scenarios (standing and on the ground) where one combatant had a knife and the other was unarmed. Even though it was a much more dangerous situation than working against an unarmed opponent the normal concepts still applied. It just added a new variable that had to be kept track of. Some techniques had to be modified, but the principles did not change.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> I, for one, was not aware ALL of Kung Fu competed in UFC 1-4.


Jason Delucia did something called Five Animal Kung Fu.  Not sure what Five Animal Kung Fu is.  I went back to watch his fights and to be honest I've seen lesser fighters use more kung fu. Than what he showed.


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## FriedRice (Feb 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Jason Delucia did something called Five Animal Kung Fu.  Not sure what Five Animal Kung Fu is.  I went back to watch his fights and to be honest I've seen lesser fighters use more kung fu. Than what he showed.



Well where were you or other Kung-Fu masters to whoop on  Gracie and the rest of UFC 1-4?  $60,000 for a night's fight, grand prize....was probably like 60-100 times more than what most Kung-Fu guy makes in a local fight unless it was K-1 or something.  And this was in a big place vs. a hotel conference room too. 

And as I recall, he quickly got taken down and grappled so I'm not sure how much Kung-Fu anyone can show you while they're in pretzel position.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 2, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Well where were you or other Kung-Fu masters to whoop on  Gracie and the rest of UFC 1-4?  $60,000 for a night's fight, grand prize....was probably like 60-100 times more than what most Kung-Fu guy makes in a local fight unless it was K-1 or something.  And this was in a big place vs. a hotel conference room too..


You do realize that Royce Gracie could only fight a limited number of opponents in UFC 1-4 right? The fight card was full.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 2, 2016)

Double post:


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Well where were you or other Kung-Fu masters to whoop on  Gracie and the rest of UFC 1-4?  $60,000 for a night's fight, grand prize....was probably like 60-100 times more than what most Kung-Fu guy makes in a local fight unless it was K-1 or something.  And this was in a big place vs. a hotel conference room too.
> 
> And as I recall, he quickly got taken down and grappled so I'm not sure how much Kung-Fu anyone can show you while they're in pretzel position.


1st.  I wasn't taking kung fu at that time.
2nd. Never claimed to be Kung Master
3rd. Never claimed to be professional fighter
4th. My professional interests and desires involve IT, webpages, and having my own company.  None of which requires me to get hit in the face for $60,000


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## Hanzou (Feb 2, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> You do realize that Royce Gracie could only fight a limited number of opponents in UFC 1-4 right? The fight card was full.



The fact remains that the lack of Kung Fu in MMA in general (and its overall performance when it *does* show up) is quite telling.


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## Buka (Feb 2, 2016)

Yeah, maybe. But maybe not. We can kind of say the same thing about boxers, they've been doing real well since UFC 1.

Interesting side note...Art Jimmerson (boxer UFC1) is the only fighter in UFC history to tap out from a submission, when no submission was actually applied or attempted.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2016)

Buka said:


> Yeah, maybe. But maybe not. We can kind of say the same thing about boxers, they've been doing real well since UFC 1.
> 
> Interesting side note...Art Jimmerson (boxer UFC1) is the only fighter in UFC history to tap out from a submission, when no submission was actually applied or attempted.



Yeah that was kind of weird


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

Kung fu techniques used in MMA:  Sweep and big wheel punches




techiques: Thrust punch, hook, spinning side kick, flying knee, are common in kung fu.  The kick actually broke his jaw




Studied filipino martial arts and Hung gar




Then you have Cung Le


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah that was kind of weird


And he was wearing one boxing glove.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 2, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> The fact remains that the lack of Kung Fu in MMA in general (and its overall performance when it *does* show up) is quite telling.


Boxers didn't do too well in the first few UFC's either, perhaps that is telling as well?


----------



## Paul_D (Feb 2, 2016)

I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum.  It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.

Neither the title of the video claim it is self defence, the description on youtube doesn't claim it's self defence, and he DVD it is taken from is called "What is martial arts", which again has nothing to do with self defence.

So in the spirit of the original post, here is a table tennis video to prove why table tennis is no good for self defence. 

_



_
*None* of what was shown in this video is effective. Self defense, or otherwise, what is shown wouldn't be much help to you if someone is on top of you trying to bash your head in.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> And he was wearing one boxing glove.


Yes which is the most mind blowing thing ever, still to this day.  Even when I first saw the match, I was puzzled as to why would he want a boxing glove on which takes away his ability to grab.  It turns out that he originally wanted to wear 2 gloves, but was afraid that the ref wouldn't be able to see him tap out.  So the hand that he was going to use to tap out is the one that didn't have the glove on.  He was highly worried that his arm was going to be broken.  Once Art was on the ground he probably knew right away that the gloved hand was more of a problem than of a benefit and was the reason why he tapped out without a submission.   

When I look at the fight now it looks as if Gracie knew he was at a great disadvantage too as it seems that he didn't try to take it to him like other opponents.  I will give art credit for holding Gracie tight. the way that he did.  That and the quick tap saved him from any ground and pound options.  But based on how Gracie was moving my guess is that Gracie understood that Art was really out of his area for fighting and knew he wouldn't have to do much to win.  I'm basing this on the intensity that he showed appeared to be very reserved in comparison to the later matches.

Art got what he wanted so he came out a winner.  All he wanted was $15,000 and the guy that brought him in said he would pay him that amount for fighting in the UFC.  He got his $15,000 and walked away healthy and is now a UFC icon.


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## FriedRice (Feb 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> 1st.  I wasn't taking kung fu at that time.
> 2nd. Never claimed to be Kung Master
> 3rd. Never claimed to be professional fighter
> 4th. My professional interests and desires involve IT, webpages, and having my own company.  None of which requires me to get hit in the face for $60,000



I just thought it was very pompous of you to berate Jason Delucia like that. Especially when he was and still is, an accomplished Kung-Fu guy....in a sense that, it usually just means that he's good as hell at doing flowery forms and pretty movements in the air for medals at KF tournament...just like any other garden variety, accomplished Kung-Fu guys. 

But the main exception here was that, Jason DeLucia backed up his flowery forms and actually had the balls to fight, NO RULES, like this. Your main defamation of him was that he didn't use enough Kung-Fu...which completely questions your ability and experience in fighting vs. trained fighters. Because it's been proven for 20+ years now, that all of that flowery forms, trained and memorized at the school,  turns into what looks like, standard Kickboxing, when it's time to fight.  Except maybe for this guy vs. Frankie:


----------



## Hanzou (Feb 2, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Boxers didn't do too well in the first few UFC's either, perhaps that is telling as well?



Boxers do well now though once they learn kicking and grappling. Boxing also tends to be the core of MMA hand striking.

Kung Fu already has those elements.


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## Hanzou (Feb 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum.  It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.




Actually almost every Bujinkan dojo I've read about makes it a point to state that their techniques are for self defense and not sport. I seriously doubt Hatsumi was demonstrating these techniques just for show. He was showing how Ninjas handle fighting off the ground, and he wanted to show how it was different than sport styles.


----------



## Paul_D (Feb 2, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Actually almost every Bujinkan dojo I've read about makes it a point to state that their techniques are for self defense and not sport. I seriously doubt Hatsumi was demonstrating these techniques just for show. He was showing how Ninjas handle fighting off the ground, and he wanted to show how it was different than sport styles.


I will bow to your superior knowledge on that one, as I have no knowledge of Bujinkan.

Well (almost) every martial arts school does that too, but very few actually teach self defence. but as we know they just put that on the website to get more people through the door.

But I don't see any attempt in the video or the description to represent it as SD, so for me it needs to be critiqued for a MA stand point rather than a SD one.  

Now, if it had SD in the title, that would be different ;-)


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## Buka (Feb 2, 2016)

Art Jimmerson got 17,000 guaranteed and a thousand for competing in the first round. (nice work if you can get it.)
The afternoon of the fight he told the promoter, Art Davie, that he needed boxing shoes and gloves, as he had forgotten to bring his. (bizarre) So they had to rush out and get him some boxing gloves. They couldn't find boxing shoes so they got him sneakers.

All I could think when I saw that match was "that poor man."

Jason DeLucia rocks.


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## Hanzou (Feb 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I will bow to your superior knowledge on that one, as I have no knowledge of Bujinkan.
> 
> Well (almost) every martial arts school does that too, but very few actually teach self defence. but as we know they just put that on the website to get more people through the door.
> 
> ...



Again, what other purpose would there be? There's no sport in the Bujinkan, so while it doesn't explicitly say "self defense", that is what is implied. If a "Ninja" ends up on the ground, this is what s/he is supposed to do in order to get an attacker off of them. There's even a (hilarious) multiple attacker variation later in the clip.

That's kind of the point of this thread; MAs who try to desperately to run away from the sport angle that they end up sacrificing the effectiveness of their style. Instead of simply learning ground fighting from a reputable source, they concoct their own version full of "deadly" moves that cannot be used in the "ring".

That point was demonstrated perfectly in the Ninjutsu video, which is why it was used.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> I just thought it was very pompous of you to berate Jason Delucia like that.


 In what way did I berate him.  
1. There is no fighting system called the Five Animal Kung Fu
2.  Wikipedia states that he "practiced the Five Animal Styles of Kung Fu"  once again this isn't a fighting system, it's a description or classification of a technique, based on how the technique moves.  This means that different fighting systems can have these same characteristics even if it's not kung fu.  
3. The only actual fighting systems that he is said to have taken is, Taekwondo, Aikido, Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  None of those 3 fighting systems that I named are Kung Fu fighting systems.
4. When you watch his matches you can see more Taikwondo and Gracie Jiu Jitsu techniques than anything else.
5. Being that it doesn't seem that he actually took a kung fu fighting system, I would doubt that he could do a form.
6. Strait from his own website "On the DVD, Jason answers these questions and more: 
...Being a traditional Gung Fu Stylist what is your opinion on the modern teachings of Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do ?  Now tell me what is the Traditional Kung Fu system that he studied.  He names the other systems but doesn't name the which Kung Fu system he studied?  This is the case with every reference of Kung Fu and Delucia no matter where you search.

I'm not the only one who does a Chinese Martial arts that has also pick up on these things.  
I found it entertaining that another Jow Ga student pointed out some of these same things in 2004
"http://www.karateforums.com/jason-delucia-s-five-animals-vt11976.html

There are other posts from other martial artist asking the same question. "what kung fu fighting system did Jason Delucia study?"
Besides there is no proof or evidence, or assumption that Jason ever did forms.


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## FriedRice (Feb 2, 2016)

Buka said:


> Art Jimmerson got 17,000 guaranteed and a thousand for competing in the first round. (nice work if you can get it.)
> The afternoon of the fight he told the promoter, Art Davie, that he needed boxing shoes and gloves, as he had forgotten to bring his. (bizarre) So they had to rush out and get him some boxing gloves. They couldn't find boxing shoes so they got him sneakers.
> 
> All I could think when I saw that match was "that poor man."
> ...



Damn, you know so much info about these early UFC's, thanks btw. $17,000 for Jimmerson, man...that's was a hell of a lot of money back then for a decent (still not good), Boxer....about $28,000 today. Like Holy Holm only got paid around $20,000-25,000 a fight by the UFC before the Title fight vs. Rousey.

I just checked on Wiki that Jimmerson's record is 51-33 with 33-18 of these 51 fights as a Pro (12 KO's).  Not bad, but not great. He lost 5 title fights and won 1. People often say that the early UFC was rigged to help promote BJJ, but I don't see it, especially after finding out now that a "decent" Boxer was paid this much to just compete. It was rigged to make money and perhaps start a revolution in MA. 

I remembered that each fighter got a $1,000 guaranteed win/lose per fight and the grand prize was around $60,000?  Fouls cost $1,000 per incident, which were: biting, eye gouging and fish-hooking but didn't stop nor stall the fight...it keeps going. But they can still win the $60k and still come out way, way ahead by biting, eye gouging, etc. even after the fines. Which was why Gordeau bit Gracie and DeLucia eye gouged Gracie...but the Ref didn't see or didn't call it on purpose, due to the nature of the early UFC's.   

Eye Gouging was a foul, but eye striking, eye poking.....was completely legal. So I guess eye gouging is when you dig your fingers in and try to scoop out a dude's eyeball. Strikes to the nuts, throat, neck, spine, pressure points, etc...no problemo.  UFC 1-4, answered most to all questions about how well "Too Deadly for Sport, Practitioners" would do in a real fight.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> People often say that the early UFC was rigged to help promote BJJ,


Those people don't know what they are talking about. The early UFC was brutal and I can't see anyone taking damage like that just to throw a fight for some money. Whatever BJJ has now they earned it.



FriedRice said:


> UFC 1-4, answered most to all questions about how well "Too Deadly for Sport, Practitioners" would do in a real fight.


It definitely answered that question because they realized just how brutal fighting is, I'm glad they put better rules because there's no way fighters would be able to keep up beatings like that and still be able to fight over the years.


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## FriedRice (Feb 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> In what way did I berate him.
> 1. There is no fighting system called the Five Animal Kung Fu



He probably just means that he's a master or real good at a certain 5 animal styles. I'm not greatly interested nor claim to know a lot about KF. Just a quick search, yields:
The 5 Kung Fu Animal Styles of the Chinese Martial Arts  – - Black Belt
Shaolin 5 Animal Kung Fu Reasoning & Logic



> 2.  Wikipedia states that he "practiced the Five Animal Styles of Kung Fu"  once again this isn't a fighting system, it's a description or classification of a technique, based on how the technique moves.  This means that different fighting systems can have these same characteristics even if it's not kung fu.





> 3. The only actual fighting systems that he is said to have taken is, Taekwondo, Aikido, Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  None of those 3 fighting systems that I named are Kung Fu fighting systems.



"After all, DeLucia was no stranger to dojos. He'd studied
Chinese Kung Fu, Chuan Fa, Kenpo, Tae Kwon Do and Judo."  (from an interview)





(bad video, but the UFC takes down many copyrighted videos off of youtube)

But you can see him wearing pants that are usually found on KF guys  and a   RED SASH. He even made the announcer introduce him as a "Kung-Fu 5 Animal Style" fighter or whatever. If TKD was his main system, then he'd say so.  

 Here's another Gracie vs. a Kung-Fu guy.....notice that there's nothing here that resemble KF other than him wearing KF type training clothes and claiming that he's KF.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I will bow to your superior knowledge on that one, as I have no knowledge of Bujinkan.
> 
> Well (almost) every martial arts school does that too, but very few actually teach self defence. but as we know they just put that on the website to get more people through the door.
> 
> ...


We just recently had a new family (mother, father, and son) try a kung fu class.  The mother wants her son to take part in it and she made the statement that he learned more in one day of our classes than in karate class that he used to take.  He was one belt away from a black belt but didn't have the coordination of someone at that level.  The son make the comment that Jow Ga is difficult and that Karate was easier and that he wanted to go back to do karate.  Keep in mind this was day 1 beginners introduction, which includes shifting stances from bow to horse and basic Jow Ga punches.  The father did a good job for his first day, but we were all shocked that the son was having such a difficult time.  I was hoping his karate skills would help him, but unfortunately it quickly become clear that he learned from one of those schools that only care about getting students and filling their pockets.

Before I get bashed about Karate.  I'm only referring to the martial arts schools that rip people off and care more about the money than about their student's learning.  This particular situation was teen that came from a karate background.


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## FriedRice (Feb 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> It definitely answered that question because they realized just how brutal fighting is, I'm glad they put better rules because there's no way fighters would be able to keep up beatings like that and still be able to fight over the years.



True. IMO, it would evolve towards Fighters trying to find ways to solve problems....like it is now, and continuing to evolve.....with which today, is bringing back more TMA techniques ....as mainstream Muay Thai has been saturated. 

But the eye strike had to be removed, no matter what....otherwise, it will evolve into a contest of eye striking, mostly and I doubt they'd sell many tickets to that. And dudes will be missing eyeballs, sooner or later, no matter how awesome they are. Oh, and strikes to the back of the neck & spine.....good Lord those were brutal.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> He probably just means that he's a master or real good at a certain 5 animal styles.


The animal styles in kung fu aren't all that special.  It's more of a description of how one moves or how the hand is held.  For example, money style is very mobile, it doesn't mean that the fighter is acting like a monkey.  It just means that the fighter is mobile like one. In this style the fighter will fight on both horizontally and vertically.  So the attack combination can literally be a combo punch to the face, mid section, and sweeping the feet.  Then on the way back up the person can perform an attack while jumping.
Tiger styles are strong arm techniques usually involving attacks using the palm trying to grab soft areas like the face and gripping the face and pulling, each style has a particular animal related to the attack or defense.  Circular is probably not a good way to describe the Tiger style.

Snake refers to the form the hand takes that's common when using guiding and wrapping techniques.

Don't go by the Blackbelt magazine descriptions of the styles.  The Australian Kung Fu website descriptions are more accurate.



FriedRice said:


> C'mon man, if TKD was his main system, then he'd say so. Why would he pretend to be KF for, as if it was something great back then?


If he actually studied Kung fu then he would have named the system and not just say 5 Animals Kung Fu.  It would be the same if I told everyone here that I study Japanese Martial arts, but never tell anyone which Japanese fighting system I actually study.  Because I don't say what fighting system I actually studied, people will assume that I may have just learned bits and pieces of techniques from a Japanese fighting system, which isn't the same thing as studying a fighting system.   I can learn how to do a Muay Thai low kick and never study or train in Muay Thai.  Just because I know how to do the kick doesn't mean that I study Muay Thai or even know techniques beyond that low kick.


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## kuniggety (Feb 2, 2016)

It's possible he was talking about Ng Ga Kuen which is referred to as 5 Family or 5 Animal. It was taught by the late legendary Ark Wong who introduced kung fu to the US in the 60s. 5 animals are very prominent in Southern kung fu systems and I even learned some animal stances when I studied Okinawan karate as a kid because of Southern style kung fu influence on Okinawan karate. Entire forms and fighting styles have been developed from each animal. Hung Ga is another relatively widespread example of 5 Animals with them having the 5 animal fist forms with a special emphasis on tiger for its main "system" form.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum.  It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.
> 
> Neither the title of the video claim it is self defence, the description on youtube doesn't claim it's self defence, and he DVD it is taken from is called "What is martial arts", which again has nothing to do with self defence.
> 
> ...



Ninjitsu is defined as a real world martial art. So self defence is implied. 

bristol Ninpo taijutsu Fighting For life Not Sport

If they are not doing self defence what exactly do you think they were doing there?


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum.  It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.
> 
> Neither the title of the video claim it is self defence, the description on youtube doesn't claim it's self defence, and he DVD it is taken from is called "What is martial arts", which again has nothing to do with self defence.


Well, (speaking as a former Bujinkan student) Bujinkan practitioners will tell you that they don't practice for sport or for consensual challenge matches or for performance. Techniques are generally presented as being for self-defense and/or traditional combative applications from the samurai era. These are definitely not traditional applications, so I can conclude by process of elimination that they were probably being presented to the students as self-defense* applications against a mounted attacker.

*By "self-defense" in this context I am referring to just the subset of self-defense that involves physically fighting** off an aggressor, not the bigger picture of awareness, avoidance, threat hardening, de-escalation, etc, etc.

**I know you usually insist that "fighting" only refers to consensual fighting and that fighting in self-defense is not "fighting." I think that's more your unique take on terminology, though. In the Bujinkan, as in most martial arts, combative techniques are generally referred to as being for self-defense.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2016)

And at this point I may as well mention again self defence taken literally is physical force. Because it is a defence against an assault charge. It is defined as a use of force.

*The defences to assault are*
CAMELS Consent, amicable contest, misadventure or accident, execution of law, lawful correction or chastisement, self defence

So you don't have to call self defence if you have pre empted an attack and walked away because nobody is going to charge you with anything.

Of course if you don't want to take the term literally then probably should be correcting other people for not doing it either.

But let's not just make up our own meaning of self defence. Then beat other people around the forums with it.


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## FriedRice (Feb 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> The animal styles in kung fu aren't all that special.  It's more of a description of how one moves or how the hand is held.  For example, money style is very mobile, it doesn't mean that the fighter is acting like a monkey.  It just means that the fighter is mobile like one. In this style the fighter will fight on both horizontally and vertically.  So the attack combination can literally be a combo punch to the face, mid section, and sweeping the feet.  Then on the way back up the person can perform an attack while jumping.
> Tiger styles are strong arm techniques usually involving attacks using the palm trying to grab soft areas like the face and gripping the face and pulling, each style has a particular animal related to the attack or defense.  Circular is probably not a good way to describe the Tiger style.
> 
> Snake refers to the form the hand takes that's common when using guiding and wrapping techniques.
> ...



Thanks for the info. This is interesting stuff. I really don't know. I've trained with Wing Chun, Wushu, Shaolin, and Hung Fut Kung-Fu guys before...but only sparring, so I wouldn't know the intricacies of KF.

I really don't know why DeLucia would want to purposefully mislead people into thinking that he was a KF fighter. Because he's wearing the KF pants, red sash, tells the announcer to call him a KF fighter, said the same to Gracie in a closed gym match that he was KF, has a website about being mostly KF, etc... DeLucia, after his losses in the UFC and the UFC become very popular (until it almost got banned by Senator McCain)....started crosstraining BJJ and other grappling and fought in big time Pancrase tourneys in Japan where he was most successful. So I don't think he was lying to sell Kung-Fu or something b/c it made him the most profit, because he failed  in the UFC....and at that time, the big money maker in MA was the TKD schools in every strip mall or even Karate, but not as much KF, as I recall. 

Maybe DeLucia is selling his version of KF, called this "5 Animal Style"....just like how the Gracies sell their BJJ.....w/o ever mentioning Traditional Jujutsu and Judo from where their art comes from, because it would detract from their BJJ cash-cow. Maybe you should send DeLucia a quick email asking him what's his KF background.


----------



## Hanzou (Feb 2, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Maybe DeLucia is selling his version of KF, called this "5 Animal Style"....just like how the Gracies sell their BJJ.....w/o ever mentioning Traditional Jujutsu and Judo from where their art comes from, because it would detract from their BJJ cash-cow. Maybe you should send DeLucia a quick email asking him what's his KF background.



The Gracies never mention Judo or Jujutsu?

They made it pretty clear from the beginning that they learned Jujutsu/Judo from Japanese sources. Namely Mitsuyo Maeda.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

kuniggety said:


> It's possible he was talking about Ng Ga Kuen which is referred to as 5 Family or 5 Animal. It was taught by the late legendary Ark Wong who introduced kung fu to the US in the 60s. 5 animals are very prominent in Southern kung fu systems and I even learned some animal stances when I studied Okinawan karate as a kid because of Southern style kung fu influence on Okinawan karate. Entire forms and fighting styles have been developed from each animal. Hung Ga is another relatively widespread example of 5 Animals with them having the 5 animal fist forms with a special emphasis on tiger for its main "system" form.


Thanks for the info.  I learned about another system today.  I haven't heard of Ng Ga Kuen and took a look at some videos of it.

When I looked it up it I recognized some of the techniques and I was surprised to see that it uses Choy Gar and Hung Gar as well.  It's one of those "Chinese MMA" systems that takes pieces from different systems.  This is a good read about the system http://www.shenkungfu.com/Ng Ga Kuen Article 1 Watermarked.pdf


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Thanks for the info. This is interesting stuff. I really don't know. I've trained with Wing Chun, Wushu, Shaolin, and Hung Fut Kung-Fu guys before...but only sparring, so I wouldn't know the intricacies of KF.
> 
> I really don't know why DeLucia would want to purposefully mislead people into thinking that he was a KF fighter. Because he's wearing the KF pants, red sash, tells the announcer to call him a KF fighter, said the same to Gracie in a closed gym match that he was KF, has a website about being mostly KF, etc... DeLucia, after his losses in the UFC and the UFC become very popular (until it almost got banned by Senator McCain)....started crosstraining BJJ and other grappling and fought in big time Pancrase tourneys in Japan where he was most successful. So I don't think he was lying to sell Kung-Fu or something b/c it made him the most profit, because he failed  in the UFC....and at that time, the big money maker in MA was the TKD schools in every strip mall or even Karate, but not as much KF, as I recall.
> 
> Maybe DeLucia is selling his version of KF, called this "5 Animal Style"....just like how the Gracies sell their BJJ.....w/o ever mentioning Traditional Jujutsu and Judo from where their art comes from, because it would detract from their BJJ cash-cow. Maybe you should send DeLucia a quick email asking him what's his KF background.


I might reach out to him and ask if it becomes a big enough curiosity for me.


----------



## kuniggety (Feb 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks for the info.  I learned about another system today.  I haven't heard of Ng Ga Kuen and took a look at some videos of it.



My former Sigung, Stephen Baugh, studied at Ark Wong's school for a couple of years. If I would've studied with him longer I probably would've learned some of the forms but my emphasis was on Northern Shaolin at the time (Bak Sil Lum and 7* Praying Mantis). I did learn a salute form which I think came from the system though.


----------



## Paul_D (Feb 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Ninjitsu is defined as a real world martial art. So self defence is implied.
> 
> bristol Ninpo taijutsu Fighting For life Not Sport
> 
> If they are not doing self defence what exactly do you think they were doing there?



It's only implied if you don't understand the difference between martial arts and self defence.  Is it implied that people who do Kendo or HEMA broadsword training are also training self defence by virtue of the fact they are training a martial art?  Of course not, that would be ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than thinking this video is self defence.  

I think what they are doing is martial arts, and martial arts and self defence are not the same thing as explained here:-

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy 

The video is not represented as SD, the words SD are not used by it, or in it, and it's clearly not an attempt to recreate the realities of civilian  violence, and so should not be critiqued as such.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 3, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> I really don't know why DeLucia would want to purposefully mislead people into thinking that he was a KF fighter.





FriedRice said:


> So I don't think he was lying to sell Kung-Fu or something



It may have been the promoters that misled the public. They did it with Kimo by stating that he was a TKD black belt when he wasn't in order to boost his marketability.


----------



## Hanzou (Feb 3, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> It's only implied if you don't understand the difference between martial arts and self defence.  Is it implied that people who do Kendo or HEMA broadsword training are also training self defence by virtue of the fact they are training a martial art?  Of course not, that would be ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than thinking this video is self defence.
> 
> I think what they are doing is martial arts, and martial arts and self defence are not the same thing as explained here:-
> 
> ...



Um, it's Ninjutsu self defense against being pinned on the ground by an attacker. Are you saying that getting pinned to the ground by an attacker never happens in civilian self defense?

Also Tony stated that these techniques are not a part of traditional Ninjutsu. They're a more recent creation more than likely put in place to address the rise in popularity of grappling.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 3, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> It may have been the promoters that misled the public. They did it with Kimo by stating that he was a TKD black belt when he wasn't in order to boost his marketability.


I've seen this with a Choe's Hapkido school where their marketing called it a "Korean Kung Fu"  They added the words Kung Fu to the website so the school could show up in the search results for the term Kung Fu.    Now they are doing it with Karate lol
Karate classes in Duluth, Georgia | Gwinnett Martial Arts Classes | Self Defense
This page says Hapkido on the school name but when you look into the description it's all about karate.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 3, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum.  It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.



Well, it's very clearly not sport based stuff.  He's not teaching that for MMA or grappling tournaments.  It's not some historical cultural piece he is trying to preserve.  So that really only leans self-defence.  I suppose it could be ninja fantasy fighting... But somehow I doubt Hatsumi is saying "Hey, check this out, it won't work in reality but it looks really dope!" 

It's kind of a thing in a lot of traditional styles. The guy with the highest rank becomes infallible and no one questions them and just goes with everything.  If it was just some self-trained ninja that read Ashida Kim's books no one would care... but this is a high ranked and very respected person with a ton of followers, and this is being presented as practical and realistic techniques.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> I, for one, was not aware ALL of Kung Fu competed in UFC 1-4.


Or felt any need to...


----------



## Steve (Feb 3, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> It's only implied if you don't understand the difference between martial arts and self defence.  Is it implied that people who do Kendo or HEMA broadsword training are also training self defence by virtue of the fact they are training a martial art?  Of course not, that would be ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than thinking this video is self defence.
> 
> I think what they are doing is martial arts, and martial arts and self defence are not the same thing as explained here:-
> 
> ...


Can someone here who actually trains in the Bujinkan tell us if the training is intended to be self defense?  

From the internet, "Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (more commonly known as Ninjutsu or combat Jujutsu) it is a Japanese martial art drawing from nine schools of classical Japanese martial arts, along with modern day self defence[sic] techniques together into a single study."

I'm glad we all agree that it's not practical for self defense use, and I understand your assertion.  But if it's not self defense.  And it's not traditional technique drawing form the nine shools of classical Japanese martial arts, what could it be?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> Can someone here who actually trains in the Bujinkan tell us if the training is intended to be self defense?
> 
> From the internet, "Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (more commonly known as Ninjutsu or combat Jujutsu) it is a Japanese martial art drawing from nine schools of classical Japanese martial arts, along with modern day self defence[sic] techniques together into a single study."
> 
> I'm glad we all agree that it's not practical for self defense use, and I understand your assertion.  But if it's not self defense.  And it's not traditional technique drawing form the nine shools of classical Japanese martial arts, what could it be?


See my comment # 70 earlier in the thread.

It can certainly be argued that most Bujinkan training is not really appropriate for modern day self-defense. Nevertheless, it is often presented as being suitable for that purpose.


----------



## Steve (Feb 3, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> See my comment # 70 earlier in the thread.
> 
> It can certainly be argued that most Bujinkan training is not really appropriate for modern day self-defense. Nevertheless, it is often presented as being suitable for that purpose.


Yeah, I get that impression.  Paul shared a link to an audio book, which prominently displays a venn diagram, which explores the relationships between martial arts, fighting and self protection. 

We agree it's not self defense (self-protection).  I think we all agree that it's not fighting.  Others have said it's not traditional technique.  So, what is it?   Is it just goofing around?  If so, great.  Just say yes, and we'll move on.


----------



## Junbu (Feb 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is an emphasis on getting up off the ground.
> Demian Maia vs Gunnar Nelson Full Fight UFC 194 Part 4 MMA Video


I must say that all he did in the first video was to show that his martial science is complete you guys must of saw many forced compliance teqnique. He was showing there is nothing new in the martial science putting himself in mount and guard positions to show you how to finish the opponent in 10 seconds not 10 rounds


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## Hanzou (Feb 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> We agree it's not self defense (self-protection).  I think we all agree that it's not fighting.



Yeah, but what if Hatsumi and co. believe that it is?


----------



## Steve (Feb 3, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but what if Hatsumi and co. believe that it is?


Couple of things.  First, that's why I'm asking the question.  It's possible that the video is just goofing around and Hatsumi is trolling the MMA fan boys. 

Second, ultimately, it doesn't matter what they believe.  I'm kind of interested in what people HERE believe.  As I said, it sounds like there is close to a consensus that this isn't practical for self protection, nor for fighting.  It's not historical, so there's no real traditional value.  Is there any value at all in something like this?  If so, I'm interested to know what.


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## Junbu (Feb 3, 2016)

What do you say self defense is? What is practicle for today compared to practicle for yesterday


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Earlier I posted a thread about Bjj ground and pound defenses. Here is a different take on ground and pound from a more "traditional" perspective;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed - this isn't a shining example. I can see a few useful bits hidden in there, within the movements. The stuff in that video isn't entirely useless, but obviously doesn't rise to the level you'd want from any ongoing training for groundwork. I have a few basic defenses that I teach very early, which would probably not be effective against a trained ground-fighter, but which are useful tools if someone relatively untrained gets you down. For the ground-fighter, you need more tools, and those develop over time, and the best tools come from the ground-fighting arts. Most of those arts are predominantly sport (which is even better, in this context, since the tools will be meant for working against those same people).

So, the short answer is this: there are a few quick answers that aren't from sport, but all the best answers I know for groundwork can be found in the combat sports.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed - this isn't a shining example. I can see a few useful bits hidden in there, within the movements.



Not really.  Nothing in there is going to work very well.




> For the ground-fighter, you need more tools, and those develop over time, and the best tools come from the ground-fighting arts. Most of those arts are predominantly sport (which is even better, in this context, since the tools will be meant for working against those same people).



Again, not really.  A mount escape is a mount escape.  You might get better at it and have better timing, but the same escapes taught on day one are used in top level competition.  The ones usually taught first are the most important, and work the best in the beginning.  You learn to chain them with other things, set them up better, time them better, etc.  But at no point does a basic escape just stop working completely.  The things in that video are not going to work on a non-compliant opponent, regardless of how trained or untrained they are.


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## Hanzou (Feb 3, 2016)

Steve said:


> Couple of things.  First, that's why I'm asking the question.  It's possible that the video is just goofing around and Hatsumi is trolling the MMA fan boys.
> 
> Second, ultimately, it doesn't matter what they believe.  I'm kind of interested in what people HERE believe.  As I said, it sounds like there is close to a consensus that this isn't practical for self protection, nor for fighting.  It's not historical, so there's no real traditional value.  Is there any value at all in something like this?  If so, I'm interested to know what.



I think Tony's explanation pretty much covers it. Hatsumi just made up some ineffective techniques and his followers are too wrapped up in his mystique to question it.

I mean, here's a vid of Relson Gracie goofing around with one of his students;






Pretty big difference.


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## elder999 (Feb 3, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Earlier I posted a thread about Bjj ground and pound defenses. Here is a different take on ground and pound from a more "traditional" perspective;



Context is *everything*.

When it comes to traditional Japanese martial arts-and even when it comes to BJJ, which is *B*asically  *J*ust  *J*udo...the original context for throws and groundfighting was being disarmed-or _less_ armed, and in armor. The objective was, generally, to open a place in the opponents armor, and stick a knife in. This is especially true for the traditional arts that form the basis of the arts called "Bujinkan." (To be fair, my exposure to them was over 20 years ago, and they weren't called that then)In any case, when it comes to arts that are koryu, or claim to be, look for armored and *armed* applications. This is, of course, part and parcel of the " not for sport"  mindset, as well as the "preserve for the art's sake" mindset: it's not likely that we'll ever see armed, armored conflict in a modern-day self-defense context. The Bujinkan is full of weapons that will never be carried or used on the street, or in self -defense even in the home, but, what if Hatsumi had a knife in one of his hands, throughout that video? There are places, like Norway, where he couldn't teach that with a knife in his hand-he'd have to talk around it, which brings us to the next bit of context:

What does _Hatsumi_ *say* these things are about?

Well, there's no explanation of the video _from Hatsumi_ at all. We have no guarantee at all what it means or is meant to present-we have only the poster's notes, and, when it comes to the Bujinkan, consistency and consistent understanding are nonexistent: quality control from Japan is not at all up to the standards of even BJJ or Judo, and one man's nonsense is another man's secret.



Hanzou said:


> Having been under a mount more times than I care to admit, *none* of what was shown in that video is effective. Self defense, or otherwise, what was shown wouldn't be much help to you if someone is on top of you trying to bash your head in.



We're agreed: what's displayed isn't appropriate (by itself) against the mount, but what if that's not _exactly_  what it's about at all?

Of course, all of this is just my opinion and speculation-I have no dog in this hunt, and no real relationship with the Bukinkan, to speak of, though I am in a position (as @Tony Dismukes  is) to have a somewhat informed opinion, and  I just thought I'd offer another perspective


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## Junbu (Feb 4, 2016)

Basically just judo there is no such thing as Brazilian jiu jitsu I agree totally with you it came from Japan and they learned it from a japanese man and only got to 1st don the. Opened there own school never entering  the menkyosi


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## Junbu (Feb 4, 2016)

Hey just kidding guys as you can see from my amount of post that I don't really have a grip on the more esoteric things of the "arts". Really just kidding ,I agree with you our version's of 2000yeR old teqnique is much better for battle today than it was on an actual battlefield ,


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## Hanzou (Feb 4, 2016)

Junbu said:


> Basically just judo there is no such thing as Brazilian jiu jitsu I agree totally with you it came from Japan and they learned it from a japanese man and only got to 1st don the. Opened there own school never entering  the menkyosi



Yeah, don't believe the hype. Judo and Bjj have diverged to the point where they are two legitimately different styles. Judo's strict rules and Bjj's openess to outside influences have pushed the two into very different directions, despite them having the same root.


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## Junbu (Feb 4, 2016)

Thank you I am just a student and didn't mean to make some of the statements I did , have a nice day nice to meet you Hanzu


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## Andrew Green (Feb 4, 2016)

Junbu said:


> Basically just judo there is no such thing as Brazilian jiu jitsu I agree totally with you it came from Japan and they learned it from a japanese man and only got to 1st don the. Opened there own school never entering  the menkyosi



Well Tae Kwon Do is basically just karate, and that is basically just Kung Fu.... Kickboxing is really just karate too, which is basically TaeKwon Do.  Judo is basically wrestling, but with a jacket, so BJJ is basically catch wrestling, and catch wrestling is basically Judo.... ok, my head hurts now.


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## Buka (Feb 4, 2016)

God, I love this place.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> Not really.  Nothing in there is going to work very well.



I didn't say the techniques were good. I said there were bits in there that were useful. They'd have to be done more cleanly, with better set-up, with better control of the attacker. But, I'll concede the point, since I'm cherry-picking a few things I saw that I could find use for, rather than seeing techniques I find useful.



> Again, not really.  A mount escape is a mount escape.  You might get better at it and have better timing, but the same escapes taught on day one are used in top level competition.  The ones usually taught first are the most important, and work the best in the beginning.  You learn to chain them with other things, set them up better, time them better, etc.  But at no point does a basic escape just stop working completely.  The things in that video are not going to work on a non-compliant opponent, regardless of how trained or untrained they are.



True, for ground-fighting training. Not necessarily true in every other case. There are some simple techniques I can teach in an afternoon, which are reasonably effective with little training, but which cannot compare to what can be learned in a few weeks. That's the difference I was referring to. In my "Basic Self Defense Set" (mostly, the first parts students learn), I do include a few simple ground defense techniques. Better ground defense waits until later in the curriculum, simply because I cannot teach everything first - something had to wait. Since I can't build on the ground work as fully as (for instance) a BJJ school, I have to make some choices. Could I start from the same place as a BJJ school for groundwork? Perhaps, but I'd need to spend more time on groundwork early, which means less time on something else.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 4, 2016)

elder999 said:


> When it comes to traditional Japanese martial arts-and even when it comes to BJJ, which is *B*asically *J*ust *J*udo...the original context for throws and groundfighting was being disarmed-or _less_ armed, and in armor. The objective was, generally, to open a place in the opponents armor, and stick a knife in. This is especially true for the traditional arts that form the basis of the arts called "Bujinkan." (To be fair, my exposure to them was over 20 years ago, and they weren't called that then)In any case, when it comes to arts that are koryu, or claim to be, look for armored and *armed* applications. This is, of course, part and parcel of the " not for sport" mindset, as well as the "preserve for the art's sake" mindset: it's not likely that we'll ever see armed, armored conflict in a modern-day self-defense context. The Bujinkan is full of weapons that will never be carried or used on the street, or in self -defense even in the home, but, what if Hatsumi had a knife in one of his hands, throughout that video? There are places, like Norway, where he couldn't teach that with a knife in his hand-he'd have to talk around it, which brings us to the next bit of context:



This was my original point. OK if hatsumi had a knife in that situation he would have the advantage. But why does he also have to have crap groundwork?

I mean is there some dynamic of knife use that makes bad groundwork more applicable?

I would have thought good ground work would give the guy with the knife more of an advantage.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 4, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> Well Tae Kwon Do is basically just karate, and that is basically just Kung Fu.... Kickboxing is really just karate too, which is basically TaeKwon Do.  Judo is basically wrestling, but with a jacket, so BJJ is basically catch wrestling, and catch wrestling is basically Judo.... ok, my head hurts now.



And they are all just drills for mma.


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## drop bear (Feb 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> True, for ground-fighting training. Not necessarily true in every other case. There are some simple techniques I can teach in an afternoon, which are reasonably effective with little training, but which cannot compare to what can be learned in a few weeks. That's the difference I was referring to. In my "Basic Self Defense Set" (mostly, the first parts students learn), I do include a few simple ground defense techniques. Better ground defense waits until later in the curriculum, simply because I cannot teach everything first - something had to wait. Since I can't build on the ground work as fully as (for instance) a BJJ school, I have to make some choices. Could I start from the same place as a BJJ school for groundwork? Perhaps, but I'd need to spend more time on groundwork early, which means less time on something else.



For self defence you teach the bump and roll. Because it is easy to learn with the knowledge that a competent top fighter won't let you do that.






It is still a viable basic and you can build it into other defences. So you can bump and roll and then shrimp out under the knee. (Which would be the next one you learn)

Simple basics.

If you want to eyegouge,bite or ninja chop people your bump and roll should really change. It should work without the extra measures so it works better when they are added.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2016)

drop bear said:


> This was my original point. OK if hatsumi had a knife in that situation he would have the advantage. But why does he also have to have crap groundwork?
> 
> I mean is there some dynamic of knife use that makes bad groundwork more applicable?
> 
> I would have thought good ground work would give the guy with the knife more of an advantage.


It absolutely would. I think a lot of styles put in small amounts of ground work, hoping to shore up gaps they see. I suppose something that sort of works is better than nothing, but not by much. It'd probably be better for students to simply struggle and experiment with the moves they already know (from their standing work).


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## Buka (Feb 5, 2016)

When I first trained in grappling we were taught to escape the mount. And were then taught to defend the mount. IMO it's the only way to study or drill the mount. Damn tiring, too.


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, don't believe the hype. Judo and Bjj have diverged to the point where they are two legitimately different styles. Judo's strict rules and Bjj's openess to outside influences have pushed the two into very different directions, despite them having the same root.


Yeah, don't believe the hype.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





As someone who has done both, I'd say that Judo and BJJ's _competitive rules_ have diverged so much that they are completely different competing styles. There i s*nothing* in BJJ that _wasn't_ in judo at one time, though there are things that might not be taught in most Judo dojo, as they are not permitted in competition, because judo has-for most dojo-become all about competition, under increasingly restrictive (and *stupid*!) rules....


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## Hanzou (Feb 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, don't believe the hype.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which is like saying that boxing has grappling, since it had it back in the 1800s. The reality is that no one in boxing is learning boxing takedowns anymore because the rules forbid it.

Judo is no different. When people are getting chastised for doing guard pulls, leg takedowns, and leg locks in a Judo dojo, you have let competition rules dominate the original martial art.


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Which is like saying that boxing has grappling, since it had it back in the 1800s. The reality is that no one in boxing is learning boxing takedowns anymore because the rules forbid it.
> 
> Judo is no different. When people are getting chastised for doing guard pulls, leg takedowns, and leg locks in a Judo dojo, you have let competition rules dominate the original martial art.



It's not like saying that at all.-there is, in fact, grappling taught in modern boxing, and if you think there are no elbows-or boxers being taught to follow the jab with an elbow from the same arm-then you aren't paying attention, and/or you're in the wrong gym.

In some places, judo *is* different, and those things are taught and encouraged. No one is chastised for doing them. @Steve  can back me up on this-Aaron Fields sensei's Seattle Jujutsu club-one of the oldest in Washington if not the U.S-includes all of these things in all of it's curricula.(They compete in sambo and judo, so of course they do...)

*Here: Sea-town Grappling.* They used to be the Hatake Dojo, though, which is where Aaron began his martial arts, and which had a pre WWII judo program.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> It's not like saying that at all.-there is, in fact, grappling taught in modern boxing, and if you think there are no elbows-or boxers being taught to follow the jab with an elbow from the same arm-then you aren't paying attention, and/or you're in the wrong gym.
> 
> In some places, judo *is* different, and those things are taught and encouraged. No one is chastised for doing them. @Steve  can back me up on this-Aaron Fields sensei's Seattle Jujutsu club-one of the oldest in Washington if not the U.S-includes all of these things in all of it's curricula.(They compete in sambo and judo, so of course they do...)


I think there's validity on both sides of this argument. Many Judo schools have lost those elements, so at those schools, those elements don't exist. Within the art, however, there are still a number of schools that teach the complete curriculum, from what I've been told. I don't know the proportion, but I know there's a similar discrepancy among BJJ schools, as well.

I guess the question is whether we describe the art by its history, the preponderance of schools, or the range of what's being taught across current schools. I'm not sure any one of those is a relevant definition across all discussions.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> It's not like saying that at all.-there is, in fact, grappling taught in modern boxing, and if you think there are no elbows-or boxers being taught to follow the jab with an elbow from the same arm-then you aren't paying attention, and/or you're in the wrong gym.
> 
> In some places, judo *is* different, and those things are taught and encouraged. No one is chastised for doing them.



I suspect if you asked the average boxer would not be familiar with old style grappling that was a part of boxing.  Things like trips, throws, etc.  Sure, there are going to be some groups that are more "historical" rather then competition based.  But to say that boxing hasn't evolved, and in that evolution gained some new things and lost some old ones.

Judo is the same, perhaps not to the same extent as boxing as it tries to maintain some connection to what Kano taught.  But it's evolved, new things added and old stuff lost.  Which is the way it should be, if nothing is changing and evolving the art is essentially dead.

Now that said I would suspect that a lot of the Judo clubs that do a lot of heavy ground work draw from sambo / BJJ / catch / etc.  And they should, why wouldn't they?  Judo and Catch where exchanging things 100 years ago, in the end it's all just martial arts.  

Personally I find the whole idea of techniques "belonging" to specific styles a little odd.  Thing belong to whoever can make them work.


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> Personally I find the whole idea of techniques "belonging" to specific styles a little odd.  Thing belong to whoever can make them work.



From the "Our Ethos" section of Sea-town grappling:



> *Nothing is new or original as the methods to gain mechanical advantage with regards to the body are finite.*


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> though there are things that might not be taught in most Judo dojo, as they are not permitted in competition, because judo has-for most dojo-become all about competition, under increasingly restrictive (and *stupid*!) rules....


Speaking as a BJJer, Judo is not alone in having stupid competition rules that negatively influence training at many schools. 

(Actually I don't mind the existence of modern tournament BJJ as a fun specialized sport with some oddball rules. I do mind when schools focus on playing that particular game at the expense of training the full martial art.)


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## Paul_D (Feb 5, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> It's not some historical cultural piece he is trying to preserve.


If that is the case, then the video has been mis-labelled.  It is clearly described as Ninjutsu in the video title, and that was my point.  The tactics and methods used by Ninja to defend themselves from attack by other Ninja are not directly relatable to the modus operandi employed by modern criminals.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 5, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> If that is the case, then the video has been mis-labelled.  It is clearly described as Ninjutsu in the video title, and that was my point.  The tactics and methods used by Ninja to defend themselves from attack by other Ninja are not directly relatable to the modus operandi employed by modern criminals.



Hatsumi is the head of the Bujikan, it's his "school", he can toss whatever he wants in there and call it part of his style.  I don't think he's ever claimed to be 100% traditional and historical, but rather modernized.  The idea that a style can stay relevant and not adapt and evolve over time is not going to work, he is (I'm assuming) attempting to apply the principals of his style to modern needs of his students.  With MMA popular people interested in self-defence are going to want to learn some defence off the ground.  Culture influences the way people, even untrained people fight.  With everyone watching UFC, guess what they are going to use as a model in their head for how they "should" fight?  

No one is going "That's not BJJ because Helio didn't teach it" when someone pulls off a technique.  Styles change, evolve, fork, disappear, merge, etc.  But there is no one on the planet more qualified to say what is "Bujikan ninjutsu" then Hatsumi.


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## Buka (Feb 5, 2016)

As to the boxing being mentioned in this thread - there is a certain flavor of grappling in clinch work. Both in mind set and principles.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 5, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> If that is the case, then the video has been mis-labelled.  It is clearly described as Ninjutsu in the video title, and that was my point.  The tactics and methods used by Ninja to defend themselves from attack by other Ninja are not directly relatable to the modus operandi employed by modern criminals.


Actually "ninjutsu" wasn't/isn't really supposed to be about defending from attacks from other "Ninjas" anyway.

Historical ninjutsu methods were primarily about espionage and military intelligence gathering.

The Bujinkan (and its offshoots), which may or may not have a direct lineage connection to historical ninjutsu, is built on 9 ryu (3 of which are verified historical traditions, 6 of which can be traced back only as far as Hatsumi's instructor). Those 9 ryu have various original purposes, but defending against "Ninja" attacks isn't really a focus. The modern Bujinkan is primarily about Hatsumi's personal expression of the martial arts, blending concepts from those 9 traditions. They are typically presented as being relevant to modern day self-defense application, which means dealing with attacks from assailants of all sorts - not specifically Ninjas.

You can make a reasonable argument that the Bujinkan and its offshoots shouldn't use the label "ninjutsu" in general. Only 3 of the 9 ryu in the Bujinkan are supposedly ninjutsu ryu and those aren't the 3 that are historically verified nor are they the arts that the majority of the training derives from. Still, Hatsumi used the ninjutsu label as marketing fodder back in the 80s and a lot of people have kept with it.


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## Hanzou (Feb 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> It's not like saying that at all.-there is, in fact, grappling taught in modern boxing, and if you think there are no elbows-or boxers being taught to follow the jab with an elbow from the same arm-then you aren't paying attention, and/or you're in the wrong gym.



Where did I say that they aren't taught elbows? I said that boxers aren't learning takedowns and kicks from 19th century boxing. Though there's no doubt you can find some books on 19th century boxing that shows those techniques, you'd be hard pressed to find boxers who are doing them.

Judo isn't much different. Sure you can find some crusty old manual showing Mifune fighting from half guard. Doesn't mean that modern Judokas are familiar with the position. Hell, almost every Judoka I've rolled with in the last 5 years just rolls up on their stomach and turtles. Kudos to the Judoka who are cross training in Bjj to bring Newaza back to the art, but they're really being thwarted at every turn by the powers that be.



> In some places, judo *is* different, and those things are taught and encouraged. No one is chastised for doing them. @Steve  can back me up on this-Aaron Fields sensei's Seattle Jujutsu club-one of the oldest in Washington if not the U.S-includes all of these things in all of it's curricula.(They compete in sambo and judo, so of course they do...)
> 
> *Here: Sea-town Grappling.* They used to be the Hatake Dojo, though, which is where Aaron began his martial arts, and which had a pre WWII judo program.



Of course they're going to be more open-minded when they're also teaching Sambo at the same location, they sort of have to be. It's no different than when you have a Judo class in a Gjj gym; that Judo class is going to be heavily influenced by the dominant style of the location. If Sea Town Grappling was called Sea Town Judo and only taught Judo, it wouldn't be nearly as inclusive or open to outside influences.


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## Hanzou (Feb 5, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Speaking as a BJJer, Judo is not alone in having stupid competition rules that negatively influence training at many schools.
> 
> (Actually I don't mind the existence of modern tournament BJJ as a fun specialized sport with some oddball rules. I do mind when schools focus on playing that particular game at the expense of training the full martial art.)



Agreed, but Bjj is a feeder into three sports; Gi grappling, No gi grappling, and MMA grappling. Those three feeders are all very popular, and all influence each other. For example, Kron Gracie, Ryan Hall, Damien Maia, Roger Gracie, and soon Gary Tonnen are all sport Bjj guys who crossed over to MMA. In that transition you gotta learn how to deal with punches, and you gotta learn some solid takedowns. Because of that, and the mystique of old school Bjj casting a shadow over the entire art, those qualities will always be a part of Bjj.

On the other hand, Judo just feeds into Gi grappling, which is what has caused it to be extremely limited in scope. So while Bjj was fully capable of absorbing collegiate wrestling, Sambo, and Catch, Judo turned them all away to preserve the "essence" of Judo.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 5, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> In that transition you gotta learn how to deal with punches, and you gotta learn some solid takedowns. Because of that, and the mystique of old school Bjj casting a shadow over the entire art, those qualities will always be a part of Bjj.


I certainly hope you are correct on that.

On the other hand, just because those aspects will (hopefully) always be part of BJJ as a whole it doesn't follow that they are part of BJJ _as specifically experienced by every student_. There are plenty of blue belts and even purple belts out there who don't have good takedowns or experience dealing with strikes.


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that they aren't taught elbows? I said that boxers aren't learning takedowns and kicks from 19th century boxing. Though there's no doubt you can find some books on 19th century boxing that shows those techniques, you'd be hard pressed to find boxers who are doing them.



Elbows are against the rules. I was taught them in boxing-the elbow off the jab and cross. Grappling takes place in the clinch, though "holding" is against the rules.

You seem to be fond of martial "games," contests like BJJ and judo, that are bound by rules. The arts that are at their basis are not.



Hanzou said:


> Judo isn't much different. Sure you can find some crusty old manual showing Mifune fighting from half guard. Doesn't mean that modern Judokas are familiar with the position. Hell, almost every Judoka I've rolled with in the last 5 years just rolls up on their stomach and turtles. Kudos to the Judoka who are cross training in Bjj to bring Newaza back to the art, but they're really being thwarted at every turn by the powers that be.



Judoka don't need to cross train in BJJ to bring ne waza back to the art: everything in BJJ  was in judo first.

"Crusty old manuals?" Mifune?

Mifune was only 66 when my father met him, and I was only five when Mifune died. I started judo three years later.

Of course, "crusty old," becomes a better and better description of me, every day!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




EDIT: 72...Mifune was 72 when my dad met him........


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## Hanzou (Feb 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Elbows are against the rules. I was taught them in boxing-the elbow off the jab and cross. Grappling takes place in the clinch, though "holding" is against the rules.



And the kicks and takedowns from "boxing of olde"?



> You seem to be fond of martial "games," contests like BJJ and judo, that are bound by rules. The arts that are at their basis are not.



Yeah, but again, Bjj is shaped by three sports while Judo is shaped by one. Further, Bjj has a "founder effect" rooted in self defense and street fighting which pushes it to be all encompassing and eclectic. Thus no matter how sporty it becomes, there is still that shadow of what Bjj's purpose was.

On the other hand, for all of Kano's genius, he had a very stubborn view of what he wanted Judo to be, and he took active steps throughout his life to shape Judo into his personal vision. So much so that all of those IJF rules can still be interpreted as what Kano envisioned the art to be.



> Judoka don't need to cross train in BJJ to bring ne waza back to the art: everything in BJJ  was in judo first.
> 
> "Crusty old manuals?" Mifune?
> 
> ...



Yeah, he received his 6th Dan over 100 years ago, and was 66 in 1949. His Judo manual is over 60 years old, and that was also a long time ago.


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> And the kicks and takedowns from "boxing of olde"?



Who cares? Your analogy fails.





Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but again, Bjj is shaped by three sports while Judo is shaped by one. Further, Bjj has a "founder effect" rooted in self defense and street fighting which pushes it to be all encompassing and eclectic. Thus no matter how sporty it becomes, there is still that shadow of what Bjj's purpose was.



Judo was shaped from several different styles of jujutsu, as well as western wrestling.




Hanzou said:


> On the other hand, for all of Kano's genius, he had a very stubborn view of what he wanted Judo to be, and he took active steps throughout his life to shape Judo into his personal vision. So much so that all of those IJF rules can still be interpreted as what Kano envisioned the art to be.



Uhh....ermm...._what?_








Hanzou said:


> Yeah, he received his 6th Dan over 100 years ago, and was 66 in 1949. His Judo manual is over 60 years old, and that was also a long time ago.



My father got ranked in judo 66 years ago. I started in judo 48 years ago....I attained shodan 40 years ago.

_"a long time ago_" is* extremely r*elative, for those of us who still train with the pre-WWII syllabus,.


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## Hanzou (Feb 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Who cares? Your analogy fails.



The analogy is that kicking and takedowns were once a part of boxing. They're not practiced by modern boxers today.

The same applies to Judo. Yeah, leg locks and double leg takedowns were in Judo at one point, but modern Judoka aren't learning them.



> Judo was shaped from several different styles of jujutsu, as well as western wrestling.



Yeah, but it wasn't shaped by street fighting. It was designed to be a form of self improvement and exercise. Kano wasn't going out with his sons and challenging people, he was looking to create a form of physical education that would improve society as a whole.



> Uhh....ermm...._what?_


_
_
You weren't aware that Kano purposely neutered Judo newaza and other aspects at multiple points throughout Judo's history?




> My father got ranked in judo 66 years ago. I started in judo 48 years ago....I attained shodan 40 years ago.
> 
> _"a long time ago_" is* extremely r*elative, for those of us who still train with the pre-WWII syllabus,.



And you do realize that the teaching of pre-war Judo is extremely rare right? Its even rare in Japan.


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> The analogy is that kicking and takedowns were once a part of boxing. They're not practiced by modern boxers today.
> 
> The same applies to Judo. Yeah, leg locks and double leg takedowns were in Judo at one point, but modern Judoka aren't learning them..



Modern judoka *are* learning them, just not all modern judoka.




Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but it wasn't shaped by street fighting. It was designed to be a form of self improvement and exercise. Kano wasn't going out with his sons and challenging people, he was looking to create a form of physical education that would improve society as a whole.



There were contests in the early stages of judo's development that rival the early history of BJJ-and I'd dispute that the one-on-one combat that was ruled by a Brazilian culture of machismo and the code duello is what I'd call "street fighting."

_
_


Hanzou said:


> You weren't aware that Kano purposely neutered Judo newaza and other aspects at multiple points throughout Judo's history?



The rules were changed for a variety of reasons,including its becoming an Olympic sport-and the worst of it wasn't by Kano at all.,...







Hanzou said:


> And you do realize that the teaching of pre-war Judo is extremely rare right? Its even rare in Japan.



Not so rare at all, actually-certainly uncommon, but I can name at least four dojo in the NYC metropolitan area that teach it, an d another two in NJ-at least, they did when I lived there. I travel a lot, and I can name two in Denver, and I've already named one in Seattle. There's more than half a dozen in Hawaii.....I realize that's a low percentage out of all the judo dojo in the country, but it's out there if you want to find it. 
\


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## Hanzou (Feb 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Modern judoka *are* learning them, just not all modern judoka.



More like a tiny minority of Judoka. Given the numbers of Judoka cross-training into Bjj, it's probably even smaller than that.



> There were contests in the early stages of judo's development that rival the early history of BJJ-and I'd dispute that the one-on-one combat that was ruled by a Brazilian culture of machismo and the code duello is what I'd call "street fighting."



Except the street fighting and challenges didn't stop with the early history of Bjj, it continued throughout its history, even up to the modern day. It's a pretty integral part of the culture of art. Judo took a very different path.



> The rules were changed for a variety of reasons,including its becoming an Olympic sport-and the worst of it wasn't by Kano at all.,...



So Kano wasn't the one who limited the amount of time one can remain on the ground because of the growing popularity of newaza (and his personal distaste of ground fighting)?



> Not so rare at all, actually-certainly uncommon, but I can name at least four dojo in the NYC metropolitan area that teach it, an d another two in NJ-at least, they did when I lived there. I travel a lot, and I can name two in Denver, and I've already named one in Seattle. There's more than half a dozen in Hawaii.....I realize that's a low percentage out of all the judo dojo in the country, but it's out there if you want to find it.
> \



Again, I wouldn't consider a gym that teaches Sambo, Jujutsu and Judo (with Judo listed last) to be a "Judo dojo".

Interesting article that emphasizes what I'm talking about, and illustrates the frustration of many judoka;

Why is that illegal? | BetterJudo.com


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## kuniggety (Feb 5, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There are plenty of blue belts and even purple belts out there who don't have good takedowns or experience dealing with strikes.



I can admit to being one of those blues. At my current school we train takedowns (shooting and judo throws) every class so it's something that I hope will be fully remedied by the time I make purple.


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