# Self defense



## brothershaw (Jul 19, 2004)

Its been my observation and experience living,working and training  in the inner city that often the people who talk the most about self defense are not the same people who might need self defense training the most. As a person who has lived in and regularly been in medium to high crime areas, I find it funny that the people who most regularly have to live with crime and violence arent the people filling self defense classes and talking about whats the best knife to carry, and the best techniques to defend yourself.  Aside from the average law enforcer or military person it seems mainly people who  have minimal contact with crime and "bad" neighborhoods are the ones trying to be the most prepared for it. Whereas the people living with gangs, drugs, and drug addicts amongst them generally arent really into "trained" self defense.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 19, 2004)

That's a good observation.I used to live outside Little Rock,Ar and repo-ed cars in the city.What I discovered was the gang eliment.To survive living in an area with dangerous gangs is to not be noticed,not be threatening in any way.People who live in these areas are very aware of who does what and where not to be when.Self-defense techniques do not work well in gang areas.If you are threatened by a gang member,remember he is usually armed,and if you do somehow defeat him,his freinds will be coming for you.Forget the cops,they want nothing to do with it most of the time.Self-defense in those type areas means don't wear any jewelry,rarely carry any money,avoid anyplace the gangbangers like to hang out,don't give them any reason to mess with you!


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

avoidence remains one of the best self defense techniques used today. i think that maybe part of the reason people train bushido is because of the fear of the unknown. no knowing who will be there, why, and what they want. i guess the people in those "dangerous" areas already know whats going on, and are not in the dark.


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## brothershaw (Jul 19, 2004)

Ensen you may be right. 
I guess its sort of analagous to training a soldier to send him into a war zone, which he has to adjust to once he gets there. Whereas the people living in the war zone are already adjusted, and dont have anyplace else to go back to.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 20, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> Ensen you may be right.
> I guess its sort of analagous to training a soldier to send him into a war zone, which he has to adjust to once he gets there. Whereas the people living in the war zone are already adjusted, and dont have anyplace else to go back to.


I'll second that, because it's true. It does seem skewed that the ones who don't need it get it and the ones who do ... don't. Mainly because they're street survivors and understand Reality based defenses better than most. 
I studied my MAs little by little and learned more about street-fighting (read: no such thing as a fair fight!) than all the formal lessons I may have had, but then again 99% of my MA training has been informal. 
I used to live/work/play/fight on the mean streets of Washington D.C. and Dallas Tx.  and thus have garnered more than I wanted to know about street-defenses, mental and physical. 
Now I live in Utah, I have to literally force myself into a defense mode whenever I'm out walking late at night or whatever. It's sooo, placid here (by comparison), that my senses have dulled somewhat. 
There are assaults and there are incidents of people fighting. But I probably avoid areas where it's more likely to happen more out of instinct than anything else and very subconciously I might add. I don't think about it I just don't go there.  No need to ... my present friends are not of the criminal element. <shrugs> A damn good change I'd say.


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## OC Kid (Jul 20, 2004)

Being raised in a barrio, and now living just outside a barrio and teaching disadvantaged kids from that barrio I learned that the people who live there dont need self defense training. They get it daily on a daily basis ,what you modern M/A types call reality based traning. They basically know how to survive in that environment. 

People on the outside need to learn to deal with them. They can definately teach most M/A some reality based training if they wish.


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## lonecoyote (Jul 20, 2004)

I think it might be psychological, too. When I was young, and lived homeless, the feeling I had most of the time was "nothing to lose" people can feel that vibe, and don't want any part of it. They were in as much danger from me as I was of them a lot of the time. Now that things are different for me, I have a family, and a stake in things, you bet I think about self defense. No one is taking away from me that which is so rare and precious.


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## mcjon77 (Jul 20, 2004)

One of the things that I have begun to notice is that growing up in a rougher neighborhood (I grew up and still live on the South Side of Chicago) is that you develop a certain amount of "street knowledge" that becomes comepletely unconcious and saves you from a lot of altercations.  I didn't know that everyone didn't have this instincts until I started hanging out with people that grew up in better neighborhoods who didn't have the instincts.  It was amazing to me to see my friends walking down the street with there head down looking like a "victim".  Inevitably, they either grossely underestimated or overestimated the danger in a certain area.

What is even more shocking is noticing the mannerisms you have developed in rougher enviornments once you are transplanted into much tamer enviornments.  My first year in college was spent at a small state school in Illinois, close to the Illinois/Iowa border.  The first time I went there to visit, it freaked me out walking into town and having people make eye contact with me.  Where I am from, eye contact can be construed as a sign of aggression.  It took me about a month to adjust to it.  The problem was that after about 3 months in that small town, when I came back home I had picked up some of their mannerisms.  I got a whole lot of "What the f*#k are you looking at?!" from people when I walked down the street.  I learned quickly to compartmentalize those small town mannerisms I picked up and bring up my "city mannerisms" whenever I needed them.

Jon


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## hedgehogey (Jul 20, 2004)

EXaCTLY. Thread hits the nail right on the head. I grew up in southeast DC. When I see instructors advertising "Street combat courses" I laugh. 

Street combat is not eye poking. Street combat is a driveby. 

Hock hocheim, richard ryan, etc...I'd take anyone else over those dudes to watch my back if there was some drama about to go down.


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## cfr (Jul 20, 2004)

I grew up in a nice neighborhood. My self defense training is to save me from my wife when she is PMS'ing. I call it Hell Week.

artyon:  artyon:  artyon:  artyon:


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## OC Kid (Jul 21, 2004)

I think only prayer and fasting can help you with that bro..:>)


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## cfr (Jul 21, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> I think only prayer and fasting can help you with that bro..:>)




Ha ha ha. 

 :ultracool


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## Flatlander (Jul 21, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> EXaCTLY. Thread hits the nail right on the head. I grew up in southeast DC. When I see instructors advertising "Street combat courses" I laugh.
> 
> Street combat is not eye poking. Street combat is a driveby.
> 
> Hock hocheim, richard ryan, etc...I'd take anyone else over those dudes to watch my back if there was some drama about to go down.


This is a total non-point HH.  If street combat is drive-by, then what on earth is a 'reality activist' such as yourself doing training H2H at all?  Sounds to me like some tactical firearms courses are where you should be spending your time.  BJJ wont help you in a street combat scenario HH, because



> Street combat is a driveby.


Presumably, you are licensed to carry.  You know, likely, the best method of defense, when we operate from the platform of 



> Street combat is a driveby.


would be wearing Kevlar whenever you're outside of the house.  How many of us do this?  I would think it's the most reasonable thing to do.  No point wasting money on Martial Arts.  Spend your money on kevlar.  Should be sufficient.

By the way, if this is the case,



> Hock hocheim, richard ryan, etc...I'd take anyone else over those dudes to watch my back if there was some drama about to go down


would you give us an example of who you might choose to "watch your back"?


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## Disco (Jul 21, 2004)

From Brothershaw
Its been my observation and experience living,working and training in the inner city that often the people who talk the most about self defense are not the same people who might need self defense training the most. As a person who has lived in and regularly been in medium to high crime areas, I find it funny that the people who most regularly have to live with crime and violence arent the people filling self defense classes and talking about whats the best knife to carry, and the best techniques to defend yourself. Aside from the average law enforcer or military person it seems mainly people who have minimal contact with crime and "bad" neighborhoods are the ones trying to be the most prepared for it. Whereas the people living with gangs, drugs, and drug addicts amongst them generally arent really into "trained" self defense.

There's multiple reasons for this. 1) All the years I worked the "streets" in upper manhattan and brooklyn. I never saw a martial arts school anywhere near these areas. 2) People in these areas didn't have the money to travel or pay for training. 3) If they did have the resources, it's too time consuming. 4) It's easier to get a weapon. 5) It's sad to say, but all the MA's training in the world would/could not help anyone that lives in a gang inviornment. The best way to survive there was to keep a low profile and know the enemy and avoid. Perhaps things today are starting to change. I hope so, cause there were a lot of really good people who struggled just to survive.

As for the one's that are preparing, they in reality have no concept of real violence. Even the majority of instructors teaching are using theory based concepts. It only takes one real altercation to have an epiphany. But in fairness to both parties, they are training for the one on one confrontation with the once in a lifetime bad guy or their into the "sport" aspect. Nothing really wrong with that, if they fully understand that they will not become superman. Even the so-called reality based instruction is flawed. It's still play acting. Reality is honestly putting a serious hurt on a person and dealing with the mindset to do it and reset the focus after the fact of staying aware and in control. 

 :uhohh: OK, I'm through now


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## Zujitsuka (Jul 21, 2004)

Great posts.  I grew up in the Bronx and I currently live in Far Rockawy (both in NYC).  These areas aren't Pleasantville, but they aren't that bad.  However, things do go down that would make the average American pee his/her pants.

It is not as easy to get a gun in the "hood" as you think.  *People in rural and suburban areas have more access to guns than do their inner-city/urban counterparts (Hunting, sport, etc.). *  This is a documented fact.

People in rougher areas have other priorities other than martial arts training (i.e. food, clothing, shelter, bills, etc.), and martial arts training in NYC can be quite expensive.  As someone else metioned earlier, when you grow up in the hood you develop street knowledge - you tend to be very aware of your surroundings and you know what not to wear (e.g. certain colors, jewelry, etc.), what not to say, and what not to do.  You also learn to not look like a sucker (coward) but at the same time not come off with too much machismo.

Also, growing up in the hood, some of us have seen so much violence, we generally would not hesitate to go berzerk on someone when we feel they pose a threat.   We don't have to role-play certain things because we see violence all too often.  So when we're afraid, the 'adrenal dump' in nothing new so we usually fight or take flight - not freeze up.


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## brothershaw (Jul 21, 2004)

I grew up and live in brooklyn, went to school and lived in harlem for awhile, there are a fair amount of schools out there, and some of them pretty cheap,. But to me alot of the self defense "hype" is targeted to an audience that while afraid of crime ( as we all should be to some degree) has less real contact with it. 
  Rural and suburban areas do have much easier (legal) access to a variety of firearms, but having firearms doent really make you that much safer, unless you have full intent to use it, just like a knife. ( but thats another thread).
 I got into martial arts because I always was interested in martial arts, plus I thought it would train me how to fight better in general,(not sport wise or self defense wise) just in general. Its a wierd thing because to me it seems alot of the self defense hype, and the gun training hype is practically paranoid. Whereas originally I figured MAYBE I will get into a fight at a party, or something will happen on the street, but that was just a part of everyday life. Not to say I was a troublemaker or got into fights but things can happen . Whereas the self defense hype is sort of like A BAD MAN IS GOING TO COME THROUGH YOUR WINDOW SO BE PREPARED.


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## Zujitsuka (Jul 21, 2004)

I totally feel you brothershaw.  Some martial arts school pick up on how the media sensationalizes the violence in the inner-city.  Yeah it happens, but when you look at the sheer numbers of people living in such close proximity to each other in inner-city communities, something is bound to jump off.  But even so, the likelyhood of something happening is still rather low.

I got into the martial arts because I always found it interesting and I wanted to increase my chances if I got into a fight.  In the last 15 years I have only been in 2 fights - thank GOD.  Both lasted less than 10 seconds.

In regards to low cost training in the inner-city, you can get it but there is not a lot of variety.  Usually it is Shotokan Karate or Tae Kwon Do - not that I'm saying that there is anything wrong with those styles.  The low cost training in the hood is usually found at a PAL (Police Athletic League) center or a YMCA.

Speaking of the Y, people in NYC are sleeping on the YMCA.  I train at the McBurney Y on 14th Street in Manhattan.  There is quality instruction going on there.  There is a world-reknowned Judoka, Master Matsumara (8th dan) who teaches Judo there, you have the reigning Kickboxing Champion, Devon Cormack teaching Kickboxing, and my instructor who teaches an eclectic form of Jujitsu.  There is also a Seido Karate class that has a huge enrollment.

So I said all that to say affordable instruction is possible.  The classes are offered for about $50 per month for two classes per week (plus Y membership).


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## Brother John (Jul 27, 2004)

A few thoughts of mine on this.
((Very good and thoughtful post btw: few people consider the social strata in relation to martial arts training))

1. Often times people who live in "the bad part of town" don't have a great awareness of what's available to them in their community or don't realize the opportunities at least. I'm trained as a social worker/corrections officer. I've mostly dealt with either low income families who have children with psychiatric needs OR...currently...I work with youth in the Juvenile Justice system (predominantly gang members in the "Bad part of town") . It's amazing to see these folks who have such severe needs but don't realize the services that are out there to help them. It's like some would die of thirst next to a water fountain. So maybe they don't know "Hey....this martial arts school will make me feel safer and maybe teach me some skills that might save my life."

2. You don't often find many martial arts schools in 'the bad part of town'. Not many. Often, if they are...they are in the back of this store, or somewhere not so visible. Makes it even harder to realize the potential benefit.

3. Often a person in this type situation might not have the time or funds to commit to learning the martial arts. Entrenched poverty doesn't lend it'self well to anything besides Striving to get out of it  OR turning to crime out of desparation.

I'll do more thinking on this.
Good subject. 

Your Brother
John


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## hedgehogey (Jul 27, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> This is a total non-point HH. If street combat is drive-by, then what on earth is a 'reality activist' such as yourself doing training H2H at all? Sounds to me like some tactical firearms courses are where you should be spending your time. BJJ wont help you in a street combat scenario HH, because


You're exactly right. I'm a year too young to buy a pistol, but next year I plan on getting my permit. BJJ won't help you vs a driveby, and neither will super science with an acronym name. BJJ is great for fighting hand to hand, but an unavoidable hand to hand fight is a very rare thing. 

So I do it cause I like it. 



> would you give us an example of who you might choose to "watch your back"?


Quinton Jackson.


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## OC Kid (Jul 27, 2004)

Ill give and example that happened to a guy i know. He was in his apt watching TV with his cousin. His cousin noticed some guys were sitting on my guys car. he told him. My went out side and told him to get off his car. A fight started. Before he knew it one of the guys pulled a gun and threatened to kill him. He told him to give him his wallet and watch. He did . Then He said to get up and go into his apt. he did. He saw his cousin face down on the floor with another guy pointing a gun at him while robbing his apt. They robbed him and left after taking anything that was valuable except the keys to his car which my guy drew the line and wouldnt give up. So they left.
 He went to the head of the local gang told him what happened. The gang leader arranged a meeting between my guy and the one who robbed him. They had it out beat each other up. My guy never got his stuff back but he did get a piece of the bad guy.

Not pretty but real. It happens every day in Compton.


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## Phoenix44 (Jul 28, 2004)

1.  I think Disco and the others who addressed the expense of formal martial arts training are on target.  $50/month is a lot of money when you live in NYC, earn minimum wage and have a kid or two.


2.  While it's true that BJJ will not protect you against a drive-by, neither will a gun, unless you're standing in the street pointing it all the time.

3.  Nobody's addressed the issue of violence against women.  This is not usually the "bad guy in a dark alley" scenario, but domestic violence and violence by male acquaintances.  Here's an area where self-defense training is sorely needed, and minimally available.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 28, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> 3.  Nobody's addressed the issue of violence against women.  This is not usually the "bad guy in a dark alley" scenario, but domestic violence and violence by male acquaintances.  Here's an area where self-defense training is sorely needed, and minimally available.



Is it? Or do few women see the need for it, until they need it?

I have never been to a dojo that does not teach women who want to learn, and many of them have programs specific to womens defense.  I think, in any area where self-defense training is offered, its offered to women.

Unless I am misunderstaning what you mean by Minimally availible?


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## shesulsa (Jul 28, 2004)

A related topic on domestic violence and violence against women can be found here.


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## Flatlander (Jul 28, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> the people who most regularly have to live with crime and violence arent the people filling self defense classes and talking about whats the best knife to carry, and the best techniques to defend yourself. Aside from the average law enforcer or military person it seems mainly people who have minimal contact with crime and "bad" neighborhoods are the ones trying to be the most prepared for it.


You know, I just had a thought about this.  Do you suppose that the "average contemporary westerner" has a subconscious requirement for a certain amount of violence?  Those living in a violent place have enough, those living in peace need to supplement.  Does this sound crazy?


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## shesulsa (Jul 28, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> You know, I just had a thought about this. Do you suppose that the "average contemporary westerner" has a subconscious requirement for a certain amount of violence? Those living in a violent place have enough, those living in peace need to supplement. Does this sound crazy?


 Interesting point.  Perhaps so - could it be the "grass is always greener" phenomenon?


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## Zepp (Jul 28, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> You know, I just had a thought about this.  Do you suppose that the "average contemporary westerner" has a subconscious requirement for a certain amount of violence?  Those living in a violent place have enough, those living in peace need to supplement.  Does this sound crazy?



A _Fight Club_ Complex perhaps?


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## Phoenix44 (Jul 28, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Unless I am misunderstaning what you mean by Minimally availible?


Self-defense training for women is abundantly available in the dojo...minimally available in women's shelters and for poor women.


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## shesulsa (Jul 28, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Is it? Or do few women see the need for it, until they need it?
> 
> I have never been to a dojo that does not teach women who want to learn, and many of them have programs specific to womens defense. I think, in any area where self-defense training is offered, its offered to women.
> 
> Unless I am misunderstaning what you mean by Minimally availible?





			
				Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> Self-defense training is abundantly available in the dojo...minimally available in women's shelters and for poor women.


 You both have a point.  I think most women don't really think about their need for continuing training in self-defense in pretext - they may take a class from the local P.D. and have done with it, take a gun safety class and carry a firearm around with them 24/7 or pepper spray or a pair of scissors, sling their purse strap diagonally over one shoulder and the other hip and think they're safe.  Or, they always walk around with a guy friend or in a gaggle of women and think it's that simple.

 However, underpriveledged women and women who are already victims (categorically speaking) do not have easy access to self-defense in the long term.  Not many people are willing to teach 20 abused or raped women long-term for free or for reduced cost.

 And let's be frank - many of the younger women who join usually wind up dating a guy in the class, they get serious, then they break up and who stays?  The guy.  It's a tragedy for women - everone, really - that the majority of us walk around with a false sense of security and safety and that those of us who can make a difference can't recognize and help fulfill the needs of victims and the underpriveledged who are so at-risk for victimization and repeat victimization.


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## brothershaw (Jul 28, 2004)

1-  The issue of women ( being abused) just goes back to the original paradox ( point) often the people who you would think need self-defense or martial arts training the most ( and not necessarily to instructor level) are often the people the least exposed to it, or the least able to take advantage of it ( money, time, whatever).
2- People who are exposed to real violence and or crime ( whether it be a high crime area or a war zone) tend to have a different view of it than people who are just concerned about being prepared for violence but have little to no real contact with it.

Its very easy to talk about 90% of fights go to the ground, or carry this knife this way for a quick draw compared to actually living in certain conditions where things could hit the fan but its nots so academic. ( A woman in an abusive relationship probably doesnt care about 90% of fights going to the ground!)


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## shesulsa (Jul 28, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> 1- The issue of women ( being abused) just goes back to the original paradox ( point) often the people who you would think need self-defense or martial arts training the most ( and not necessarily to instructor level) are often the people the least exposed to it, or the least able to take advantage of it ( money, time, whatever).
> 2- People who are exposed to real violence and or crime ( whether it be a high crime area or a war zone) tend to have a different view of it than people who are just concerned about being prepared for violence but have little to no real contact with it.


 Absolutely - it's everyday life for them.



			
				brothershaw said:
			
		

> Its very easy to talk about 90% of fights go to the ground, or carry this knife this way for a quick draw compared to actually living in certain conditions where things could hit the fan but its nots so academic. ( A woman in an abusive relationship probably doesnt care about 90% of fights going to the ground!)


 That is, unless, she's been taken to the ground.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 29, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> Self-defense training for women is abundantly available in the dojo...minimally available in women's shelters and for poor women.



So you don't specificlly mean "Self Defense" but defense by society and the community?  or do you mean battered women's shelters do not provide training?  

I'm not trying to be difficult, I am really trying to understand what you mean...


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## Flatlander (Jul 29, 2004)

WWhhhooaaa!  Technopunk, looks like the cameraman got you before the morning coffee kicked in!


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## shesulsa (Jul 29, 2004)

Hey!!!!  Techno, are we related?  Cuz this is kinda what I look like when my Aunt Flo is visiting.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 29, 2004)

Thats what I look like on a good day, apparently.


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