# Bottom Two Knuckles?



## arnisador (Feb 3, 2006)

My slow introduction to Wing Chun continues, but it now looks like I'll be able to do traditional WC twice a week (the instructor actually studied under Yip Man's son Ip Chun in Hong Kong for a while), as well as a WC/JFGF/JKD/Silat hybrid trapping art three times a week. Of course, the new instructor (who is teaching as an assistant instructor at the same school) does the form slightly differently!

Last night he emphasized the fact that the punch uses the bottom two knuckles of the fist. In Karate I was always told to use the stronger top two knuckles. I gather the WC approach is due to the fact that the fist tends to rise up, and this makes for a more natural position? Is that so? It is a counterintuitive position for me.


----------



## Andrew Green (Feb 3, 2006)

I've heard bottom 3 for Wing Chun, but never bottom 2.  TO me that just sounds like a short cut to tending a Boxer's Fracture....

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/4585-1.asp


----------



## AceHBK (Feb 3, 2006)

I was always taught to use the top 2.
WC really teaches the bottom 2?

I would think the top 2 because they are harder.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 3, 2006)

I may be wrong but I blive the strike is with the top 2 and then the fist is rolled so that the bottom 2 make a 2nd strike


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Feb 3, 2006)

they refer to this as a vertical punch......but i was told it was the bottom 3 knuckles.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2006)

I guess I have been aware of it, but can't say that it has been heavily stressed in my wing chun group.  Of course it is a Phys. Ed class taught at the community college, so there are a lot of newbies every semester who don't come back.  Only a small group of us have become regulars.

I remember seeing pictures of Bruce Lee's knuckles, he had callouses on the bottom three fingers of his hand, but not the top finger.


----------



## arnisador (Feb 3, 2006)

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought he said the bottom two, not three. I'll have to double-check!


----------



## rutherford (Feb 3, 2006)

Straight Lead: The Core of Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do 

This new book emphasises hiting with the bottom three.  I've been meaning to take a look at it, but I don't think I'd hit that way.  

My top two knuckles are pretty big from always hitting with them, and I throw a lot of verticle punches.


----------



## ed-swckf (Feb 3, 2006)

bottom 3, it lines the fist up with the bones of the arm.  Because you punch vertical and because the punch is always rising this helps derive the power from the floor upwards.  The punch is the worst and most fussy weapon.

Also the line that keeps those knuckles in line with the bones in the arm is an arc as you go from high to low.  What i mean by this is if you get your bottom 3 knuckles in contact with a wall and make sure your arm is in correct allignment, in order to keep those 3 knuckles in contact with the wall and arm in line you have to lower your punch in an arc.  so if your right hand is in contact with the wall you need to essentially draw this shape  *(  *from top to bottom, if you try to go straight down you will notice the bottom 3 knuckles don't stay in contact or the allignement of the arm will change.


----------



## ed-swckf (Feb 3, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Straight Lead: The Core of Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do
> 
> This new book emphasises hiting with the bottom three. I've been meaning to take a look at it, but I don't think I'd hit that way.
> 
> My top two knuckles are pretty big from always hitting with them, and I throw a lot of verticle punches.


 
Its got a lot more to do with the dropped elbow thinking about it, you'll find it hard or at least unallingned to punch with the top 2 knuckles when driving from the elbow upwards into the opponent.  If for reasons of perhaps a long time punching in your way it still feels comfortable you will still be wasting some of that full effect of the elbow position.  the bottom 3 knuckles sit in perfect natural allignment to maximise the full force of that driving elbow, to use the top 2 knuckles you tend to reach over the top of that drive at the end.  I'm not saying your punches aren't powerful the way you do them just that you will probably not be utilising the ideas behind the the wing chun punch to generate that power.


----------



## ed-swckf (Feb 3, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought he said the bottom two, not three. I'll have to double-check!


 
I've heard people say bottom 2 before but generally people say 3.


----------



## rutherford (Feb 3, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I'm not saying your punches aren't powerful the way you do them just that you will probably not be utilising the ideas behind the the wing chun punch to generate that power.


 
Actually, I don't think my verticle punch looks much like a JKD verticle punch anymore, and I never trained in Wing Chun. 

I wanted to check out her book and think about the mechanics.  She seemed to go into a lot of detail on the hows and the whys.  But even so, I'm not sure it'd be something I'd want to put into my movement.

And, yes.  I do hit very hard, but I'm also sure there's infinite cleanup that I could do on my mechanics.  Thanks for the ideas.


----------



## ed-swckf (Feb 3, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Actually, I don't think my verticle punch looks much like a JKD verticle punch anymore, and I never trained in Wing Chun.
> 
> I wanted to check out her book and think about the mechanics. She seemed to go into a lot of detail on the hows and the whys. But even so, I'm not sure it'd be something I'd want to put into my movement.
> 
> And, yes. I do hit very hard, but I'm also sure there's infinite cleanup that I could do on my mechanics. Thanks for the ideas.


 
No problem dude, the book looks interesting actually, i might see if i can pick it up sometime.


----------



## barriecusvein (Feb 3, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> bottom 3, it lines the fist up with the bones of the arm.


This is the best reason i've heard. Also, the vertical punch works much better with the wing chun centre line attacks. If you try and fit a hosizontal fist into the eye socket or the mouth it doesnt sit as well as a vertical fist. A horizontal punch will still do a lot of damage, but the vertical fist can make contact with more painful areas, allowing huge amounts of damage with minimal force.


----------



## bcbernam777 (Feb 3, 2006)

Wing Chun utilises the bottom three knuckles, as for a vertical fist, this is the most effiecient and saf alighnment of bones. In Wing chun a horizotal fist is not not employed for 2 reasons:

1) firstly it utilises a slight tense energy which is not productive fore Wing Chun.

2) secondly the hrizontal fist is not effecient for infighting, particulary where there are very small openings to attack through, where as the vertcal fist is able to penetrate more easily.

If you do use only 2 knuckles, you do not have the ability to prevent injury, and the punching surface area is reduced


----------



## dmax999 (Feb 4, 2006)

In my WC class it was bottom 2 knuckles, no doubt about it there. There are lots of "unconventional" things in WC like this that just seem wrong when starting, once you are able to use WC well they make sense. There are a lot of "internal" MA aspects to WC, but WC classes tend to be more pragmatic then theory based as internal arts tend to be.

I also remember a slight upturning of the fist at the end by using the wrist joint for additional power which only lets your bottom two knuckles hit the target (If you are hitting good enough for that to matter you are doing pretty good) This is common in "internal" CMAs. Liu Hu Ba Fa describes it well as being the six harmonies, which are the six main joints used in a strike. [Wrist - Ankle, Elbow - Knee, Shoulder - Waist] (I believe they are paired up like this). When you can incorporate all six joints in a strke at the same time and correctly you are probably hitting nearly as powerful as you possibly can. Tai Chi calles the same thing "peng". Never heard a name or description for this from WC, but its the same thing.


----------



## bcbernam777 (Feb 5, 2006)

I want everyone to do something for me, make a fist, you got it? good, now run two fingers from your third to yur last knuckle down to the wrist, what do you have??? A triangle, now run your fingers down the foruth and last knuckles, there again is another triangle howeer, it is narrower, what does this mean???? Any physics geeks out there??













It means that the structural support for wider triangle is greater than for the narrower triangle, there is simply moer of a structural base for support and stability of the bone structure, I have never heard of any of Sigungs students from the 50's advocate the use of 2 knuckles, note that this may be an interpretation of the knuckles used because of flicking, the fist up.


Now in terms of flicking the wrist upwards, yes the fist does flick up, yet it is not a forced thing but a natural result of utilising the whip energy.


----------



## arnisador (Feb 8, 2006)

At class last night the instructor reiterated that it is indeed the bottom two knuckles that he wishes us to use. I do confess to some concern over injury to my fist. I very much enjoy the system and the class, and the instructor seems very knowledgeable, but I don't want to injure myself. A broken hand could really mess up my arnis!


----------



## ed-swckf (Feb 8, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> At class last night the instructor reiterated that it is indeed the bottom two knuckles that he wishes us to use. I do confess to some concern over injury to my fist. I very much enjoy the system and the class, and the instructor seems very knowledgeable, but I don't want to injure myself. A broken hand could really mess up my arnis!


 
Did he go on to explain exactly why he suggests 2 knuckles and did you ask him why not 3?


----------



## arnisador (Feb 8, 2006)

I don't think I'm in imminent danger of injury so I am giving it some time. I do intend to ask at some point, but the class has just started with this instructor and I figure it's polite to try it for a while and see if the answer becomes apparent to me. (Meanwhile, I'm thinking about it, looking in books, and asking here!) He does do the slight flick at the end and has stated that this position is necessary for having a strong position.


----------



## ed-swckf (Feb 8, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I don't think I'm in imminent danger of injury so I am giving it some time. I do intend to ask at some point, but the class has just started with this instructor and I figure it's polite to try it for a while and see if the answer becomes apparent to me. (Meanwhile, I'm thinking about it, looking in books, and asking here!) He does do the slight flick at the end and has stated that this position is necessary for having a strong position.


 
Its an honest question, no one should find that inpolite.  Besides its always good to know exactly why you are training something, i understand though, with him being new and all.  When/if you do ask him could you, out of my own interest, let me know what he said?


----------



## arnisador (Feb 22, 2006)

My son and I are really enjoying the Wing Chun. It's such a well-thought-out system! It's sharpening up my JKD too. Learning to shift my weight back most of the time is hard though--I'm used to a more JKD style stance.

It's a heck of an arm workout. I go home with tired shoulders each time.


----------



## Hung Fa Moose (Feb 24, 2006)

I agree with ed-swfck and others on this, but would like to expand a bit. Using the bottom three knuckles for any punch is both a safety feature for the striker, and a structural improvement for the punch. Jab, cross, hook, upprcut and vertical punches all make use of this structure. As Ed stated, this allows for an alignment with the forearm bones, locking the wrist into a more stable position. If you hold your arm straight out while making a fist, you may notice that the pinky, ring and, middle finger knuckles line up with the wrist and forearm, making a straight line from your knuckles to elbow. The index finger is not aligned with your forearm at all. Now, turn your wrist so that the index and middle knuckles are aligned with your forearm. What happens? Your wrist is now bent and you may feel a torque in your muscles that requires more energy to hold. Now, do this test on the floor. Do a knuckle pushup on the pinky/ring/middle knuckles and pay attention to how it feels, even if you just hold yourself up on them, you can do so easily. Now, hold yourself up on the index and middle knuckles, then do a push up too. How's it feel? Shaky/wobbly? Given time you can make this structure work, but I'd much rather utilize the naturally strong structures of my body within an hour or two of training rather than have to build up new muscle and nerve connections that are not as natural and require more time to make functional. The three knuckle alignment is more natural and structurally sound than the given two knuckle alternative. It is safer for the hand, which is not a natural weapon, to align the fist such that the striking surface is the Pinky/Ring/Middle knuckles, again, locking the wrist in a straight position, and alinging it with the forearm. This is very true for bare handed punching, as in a self-defense situation, you'll not likely have time to put on the gloves. Now, when you're wearing gloves, especially boxing gloxes, this alignment is not too important to consider, given that you've got padding on, and maybe a taped wrist and hand. I'm not saying that people don't think of this, just that when wearing gloves, you can do more with your hand and be safe about it. Being bare handed in an encounter, it is best to have analyzed and trained this detail so that you don't do your attacker a favor by hurting your hand for them when you do hit them. Kind of detrimental, no?


----------



## brothershaw (Feb 26, 2006)

Good post hung fa moose, in addition what may seem more conventional or popular (for example punching with a horizontal fist, using the index and middle finger) may not always be the best thing
In addition all the things within a given system were designed to work together  from the way they strike to how they stand everything is complimentary taken in idividual bits and pieces things may not add up. 
For a beginner who only has a few bits to go on alot of stuff can seem odd or uncomfortable and most people dont stick it out to see how the pieces fit.


----------

