# Oh Do Kwan Q&A...



## Spookey (Dec 14, 2004)

Dear All,

I would like to dedicate this thread to the history and legend of the Oh Do Kwan...as a continuance of the conversation that began recently on the thread "why do you teach TKD"...

All questions are welcome...allowing the experience to be shared with those wishing to seperate myth from reality!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


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## MichiganTKD (Dec 14, 2004)

Spookey,

Not to be rude, but since the Oh Do Kwan no longer exists (supplanted when Gen. Choi formed the ITF) this thread may have limited relevance. Similar to a history of the Soviet Union. Nice to know if you like history, but of limited relevance.


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## Ceicei (Dec 14, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Spookey,
> 
> Not to be rude, but since the Oh Do Kwan no longer exists (supplanted when Gen. Choi formed the ITF) this thread may have limited relevance. Similar to a history of the Soviet Union. Nice to know if you like history, but of limited relevance.


 So what would you consider relevant and of interest to those in TKD that would be along the theme of this thread?

 - Ceicei


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## Zepp (Dec 14, 2004)

Spookey, if it's the history of the Oh Do Kwan you wish to discuss, I think you'll have to get us started here, seeing as how you're one of the few who still practices Oh Do Kwan style TKD (as opposed to ITF).  So, please enlighten us.  What should we know?


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## Miles (Dec 14, 2004)

Spookey,

Does the Oh Do Kwan still exist in Korea?

What branch of the service was your father in?

Do you practice the ITF tuls or the Kukkiwon's poomsae (or something unique to Oh Do Kwan)?

Do you or your students spar Olympic style or point?

Thanks!

Miles


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## Spookey (Dec 14, 2004)

Dear Mithios,


As you already know this thread was created in responce to a conversation we divulged into in another thread...so, thanks for helping me get this thread started!

First I wish to address a comment made by MichiganTKD...

The Oh Do Kwan was not "supplanted when Gen. Choi formed the ITF"...the ITF was formed in 1966, the Oh Do Kwan continued to exist until the late 1970's when it was absorbed by the Kukkiwon and thus was destroyed as it was headed by those loyal to Gen. Choi! Also, as with all threads this one is relevant to those with interest. In the event that you lack interest, maybe you could find a thread more well suited to your likes!

Mithios, here are some more answers to your questions which have carried over from the previous discussion...

1. The Oh Do Kwan is no more as it was absorbed by the Kukkiwon in approximately 1976 and was later denied in the pages of TKD history as written by the Kukkiwon

2. My Father was in the US ARMY serving in Vietnam from 1968-1971...While serving in the 1st Signal Brigade, he found himself stationed in Di-an Vietnam. While stationed there he trained with the then current Oh Do Kwan Instructors Group, and more specifically the Instructors Group Instructor. First, Sgt. Major Kang Chung Man, and later by his relpacement, Sgt. Major Kim Bo Kyum. Mr. Kim befriended my Father and they remained friends until 1983 when he (Kim Bo Kyum) was abducted on the 38th Parrallel. This info was retrieved from the Korean AP in an indictment brought against Kim Jong Il. During there friendship, my father was proudly promoted by Hyun Jong Myun (President, Dae Han Taekwon-Do Oh Do Kwan, Jung Ahn Bon Kwan, Seoul Korea) to the position of Oh Do Kwan instructor, and later was promoted to ITF-II personally by Gen. Choi Hong Hi!

3. In honor of the founder of the Oh Do Kwan, we continue to practice the Chang Hon Hyungs as created by Gen. Choi Hong Hi. All 24 current patterns plus Kodang! 

4. Our students spar just as in the Oh Do Kwan...Non Contact, continuous sparring. Also, at the intermediate ranks we allow contact to increase with those that wish (not a requirement)...this is specifically fot those that wish to participate

Thank you again for your interest in the Oh Do Kwan...TAEKWON!

Michael Bateman
"Spookey"


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## Mithios (Dec 15, 2004)

Around "76", That answers a ? i had! Thank's,  Mithios


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## Miles (Dec 15, 2004)

Spookey, you are referring to the Kwan Unification Act.  The Modern History of Taekwondo (a book written by two Korean Grandmasters and translated through the efforts of my senior Glenn) speaks about this time in this excerpt:

"The Korea Taekwondo Association attempted to eliminate the old concept of the Kwan in order to unify Taekwondo. Although there were objections to the elimination of the Kwan system, the Korea Taekwondo Association earnestly began seriously working towards that goal in beginning in 1974. On May 20, 1976, the Korea Taekwondo Association eliminated the names of the Kwans and replaced them with numbers. The following are the Kwan name and their number:

Kwan #1: Song Moo Kwan
Kwan #2: Han Moo Kwan
Kwan #3: Chang Moo Kwan
Kwan #4: Moo Duk Kwan
Kwan #5: Oh Do Kwan
Kwan #6: Kang Duk Won
Kwan #7: Jung Do Kwan
Kwan #8: Ji Do Kwan
Kwan #9: Chung Do Kwan

However, the Moo Duk Kwan had members who were separated from their Kwan, and so Moo Duk Kwan members were under both Kwan #4 (Moo Duk Kwan) as well as Kwan #10, which was designated as the Administrative Managing Kwan (Kwan Ri Kwan). ""

Perhaps, like the Chung Do Kwan, Han Moo Kwan, and Moo Duk Kwan/Hwe, the Oh Do Kwan still exists?

Miles


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 15, 2004)

Spooky
I have not reaad the other thread so if this question or any to follow are repeated from that thread please forgive me asking them a 2nd time.

What forms are in this system.  Are they all one man forms?

I noticed above that you mentioned a Oh Do Kwan Instructors Group if this group still exsists then in some way I feel that the organisation must still be alive.


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## Spookey (Dec 15, 2004)

Dear TShadowChaser,


First, there are still some Oh Do Kwan instructors around; however, most have been disolved into the modern culture of TKD...understand that by modern, I refer to that time after the WTF was formed! I do believe that the Oh Do Kwan still lives in its students and there generations (when trained as ODK)...however, we must understand what qualifies "Oh Do Kwan"...many individuals use the term in the name of their dojang (as a sign of respect to the legend) however they are not of the ODK way. Also, many only wish to seek name recognition...It is necessary for those of us solidifeid in the ODK to preserve and protect the name and the honor established by those very few (only 500+, few in comparison) Instructors who created that which is now legend!

Dear Mithios,

(To the best of my knowledge)...
There is one main difference which seperated the Chung Do Kwan, Han Moo Kwan, and Moo Duk Kwan from the Oh Do Kwan. The Oh Do Kwan was the Republic of Korea Military training gym. Therefore it was directly associated with the government. At that time, the same government of which Gen. Choi became a public enemy.

Furthermore, the Moo Duk Kwan is still generally associated with Tang Soo Do as opposed to TKD, and was that way during the inception of the KTA. I also understand that the Chung Do Kwan is possibly listed in Korea as a social organization as opposed to being listed as a mu-do...

I have contacts with a ninth dan CDK and Korean national; I will contact him regarding the status (and the how?) of the ability for the CDK to issue certificate seperate from the Kukkiwon!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


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## Marginal (Dec 15, 2004)

Is there much difference between Oh Do Kwan and ITF in terms of style technique etc?


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## Zepp (Dec 16, 2004)

I've been told that the meaning of the word "kwan" is a group of people with similar interests working together towards a common goal.  So unless I'm mistaken about that, it sounds to me as though the Oh Do Kwan is very much alive today through Spookey here and others that still practice the same style.

I've got a question for you Spookey:  How are dan promotions handled these days in the Oh Do Kwan?


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## Spookey (Dec 16, 2004)

Dear Tstormchaser,

Sorry to have overlook a responce to one of your questions. Regarding the hyungs...The Chang Hon patterns as created by Choi Hong Hi are the official hyungs of the Oh Do Kwan as well as the ITF. Originally, the set consisted of 20 hyung. Later 4 additional hyungs were added. After the formation of the ITF and well past the end of the Oh Do Kwan, the ITF cirriculum introduced a new hyung and removed one existing hyung.

Dear Marginal,

The techniques of the Oh Do Kwan have been modified through time under the domain of Gen. Choi and his ITF. The techniques more than likely would have been modified in the Oh Do Kwan as well if politics would have worked out differently. However, the Oh Do Kwan had no sport aspect as it was strictly for the training of Military and was not available for civilian training. These sometimes "raw" techniques were far from the asthetic beauty of the ITF, however, they were not for grace and beauty, they were intended for combat!

Dear Zepp,

The word kwan as used in the "kwans" of TKD generally means gym...Oh Do Kwan means "Gym of my way"...The Oh Do Kwan was a physical gymnasium for the training of military unarmed combat. The physical body of the Oh Do Kwan as a training hall is long gone. The instructors of the Oh Do Kwan that are both still living and teaching Taekwon-Do either issue certification in the name of what ever organization they are currently associated with or in their own names. Therefore, we can carry on the heritage of the Oh Do Kwan in our hearts, actions, and dreams; however, the Oh Do Kwan is no more! 

Basically, there is no way to obtain certification through the Oh Do Kwan! You cant even get the Kukkiwon to verify certification previously issued by the Oh Do Kwan....they probably detroyed the records...in this we say the Oh Do Kwan was destroyed!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


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## Marginal (Dec 17, 2004)

Spookey said:
			
		

> However, the Oh Do Kwan had no sport aspect as it was strictly for the training of Military and was not available for civilian training. These sometimes "raw" techniques were far from the asthetic beauty of the ITF, however, they were not for grace and beauty, they were intended for combat!



How so?


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## Spookey (Dec 17, 2004)

Dear M,


Regarding asthetics of movement. The patterns are preformed more rythmically as the focus is placed on the "art", and the patterns as a whole are looked upon for their beauty and flow. The sinewave motion know used ,as opposed to hiptwist, creates a smoother less choppy fluidity in movement. Also, the patterns have been slowed down to be more rhythmic in nature, demonstrating the beauty of the pattern as opposed to the power of the individual technique.

These are the best words I can find to describe the differences you might notive between the Chong Han patterns as preformed in the early seventies as opposed to those preformed today!

Hope that helps...


TAEKWON!
Spookey


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## Marginal (Dec 17, 2004)

Ah. Only thing is, sinewave doesn't replace hiptwist. It compliments it. Done right, it doesn't sacrifice power. 

Aside from pattern flow, are there any signifigant differences in how the techniques are performed, or how training is done?


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## MichiganTKD (Dec 17, 2004)

Spookey,

Don't misinterpret my original post as meaning I am uninterested in the history of Oh Do Kwan. I am always up for a little kwan history. In my opinion, the official death of traditional Tae Kwon Do came when the kwans were dissolved. Each kwan had its own flavor and approach that gave TKD interesting mix, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all Olympic approach.
What I meant was, with the Oh Do Kwan dissolved, it didn't strike me as important to detail its history, other than as historical reference. I am a fan of the Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do Kwan connection, since the two were almost interchangeable. Upon entering the military, by orders from Gen. Choi, only CDK black belts were allowed to keep their ranks without retesting. I also am intrigued by the notion that the Chang-Hon forms were the first time Korean forms began to differentiate themselves from just copying Japanese forms by including the famous Korean kicking.


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## Spookey (Dec 17, 2004)

Marginal,

I did not mean to state that sinewave replaced hip twist and I agree when done properly it is useful in the creation of power...Relating to the techniques, there have been changes and modifications, most of which are for the better I believe. The Oh Do Kwan holds prestige in that it was a military gym with the soul intent of combat!

MichiganTKD,

If I misunderstood your original post, i apologize. The Oh Do Kwan became a topic of discussion when MITHIOS AND MYSELF seperated from the original topic. Another poster incouraged us to continue our conversation by creating a new thread. This thread is a continuation of the ongoing conversation now available for all to share!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


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## toddfletcher (Jan 12, 2014)

I realize that much time has gone by since the last post - but I wanted to chime in.

I consider myself a practitioner of Ohdokwan-TKD martial arts. My master GM Kevin Kim trained ODK from his young childhood in South Korea. We have contacts with at least 15 Koreans who also consider themselves Ohdokwan practitioners (who all training with Mr. Kim as children) as a distinct form of training beyond TKD. We training and teach TaeGuk, Palgwe, and other forms reaching into ITF and other 'associations'. 

Considering the combination of little centralized ODK governing body, 40 years since it was observed into TKD, and contentment with private training - I imagine that any school or individual practicing ODK would have noticeable differences in curriculum and style of training.

Areas that I have found somewhat common in ODK training that I received form the various masters I have known. This is simply been my observation over the years. 

1) Moving balance and kicking from the hip is more important that the foot or leg.
2) ODK practitioners prefer full contact, no padding fighting over 'sparring' in a competition type setting.
3) ODK style training seems to take on a closer resemblance to Taekkyeon or Northern Style KungFu than it does Karate. There is a preference to complete body movement and harmony from one technique to another. In contrast, the TKD in other schools I have trained with seems to emphasis individual kicks and techniques instead of a holistic full-body continuous movement.
4) ODK practitioners and masters seem to have little concern for commercial success or notoriety. They train in more private settings. Do little to advertise themselves and what they do. When a ODK school is started, the pricing seems lower for every aspect from enrollment, to advancements, etc... There is little interest in 'tournaments'. Many seem to care little for official 'blessing' from outside associations like WTF, ITF, etc... Possible why Dan certificates are often from places like WTF or ITF when an ODK students seeks rank. And why - when faced with the needs of running a successful school - most ODK practitioners identify themselves with more mainstream TKD associations.

Just my thoughts and observations. I hope it is enlightening to someone.


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## TKDTony2179 (Jan 17, 2014)

Spookey said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I would like to dedicate this thread to the history and legend of the Oh Do Kwan...as a continuance of the conversation that began recently on the thread "why do you teach TKD"...
> 
> ...



Some where on this thread you said that OH Do Kwan meant "Gym of my way." So what does Chung do Kwan mean?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 17, 2014)

It means Blue Wave Gym (or school). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 17, 2014)

TKDTony2179 said:


> Some where on this thread you said that OH Do Kwan meant "Gym of my way." So what does Chung do Kwan mean?



While often cited as an example of General Choi's ego, having the gym his way, that was a misinterpretation. 

You need to keep in mind that this is for someone and everyone at the time speaking in the first person.  Since it may have been viewed as being disloyal to train at an existing  rival gym, this was a name for a new gym which in a sense was The Gym of My way, or the gym for all of us.  (Per my interview with Nam TAe Hi).


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## Michael89 (Jan 27, 2014)

I don't know much about Oh Do Kwan but I do know more about Jido Kwan.


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## 40th Alabama (Feb 26, 2014)

In the 1950's-early 1960's (I think) my master trained under a Master Oh in Korea.  Does this Master Oh have any relavence to Oh Do Kwan.  In my training we were referred to as Moo Duk Kwan-Tae Kwan


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2014)

40th Alabama said:


> In the 1950's-early 1960's (I think) my master trained under a Master Oh in Korea.  Does this Master Oh have any relavence to Oh Do Kwan.  In my training we were referred to as Moo Duk Kwan-Tae Kwan



I'm going to say no. The Korean name O, a very common Korean surname, has nothing whatsoever to do with the word Oh, which means "mine" or "ours". Since your training was a Moo Duk Kwan branch, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this "Master O" was part of the Moo Duk Kwan. Which branch I couldn't say without a lot more information. The only Moo Duk Kwan lineage I have memorized is my own. 

If the Master Oh you are talking about is OH Se Jun, then he was a student of GM HWANG Kee, and the 4th Kwan Jang of the Moo Duk Kwan.

Who is your master?


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## IcemanSK (Feb 27, 2014)

FWIW, trying to add to the discussion. I'm familiar with a dojang in So. Cal. that has strong connections to the Oh Do Kwan in Korea. The GM is a current  high-ranking SK military officer, and has a close connection to the Oh Do Kwan Jang. This dojang follows the Kukkiwon curriculum, but keeps to the traditions and history of the ODK, per their grandmaster.

My point is there are folks in the U.S. who claim both ODK and Kukkiwon affiliations. It was news to me when I first met them.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 27, 2014)

IcemanSK said:


> FWIW, trying to add to the discussion. I'm familiar with a dojang in So. Cal. that has strong connections to the Oh Do Kwan in Korea. The GM is a current  high-ranking SK military officer, and has a close connection to the Oh Do Kwan Jang. This dojang follows the Kukkiwon curriculum, but keeps to the traditions and history of the ODK, per their grandmaster.
> 
> My point is there are folks in the U.S. who claim both ODK and Kukkiwon affiliations. It was news to me when I first met them.



Of course. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that a majority of high level KKW practitioners, especially those trained in S Korea, maintain a connection to one of the original Kwans, up to and including issuing rank from those Kwans. In our school, all of our geup ranks and the majority of our Dan ranks are from the Moo Duk Kwan; KKW Dan ranks are very much a minority. Not really surprising, since our GM was a student of HWANG Kee who chose to stay with LEE Kang Ik during the first fracturing of the Moo Duk Kwan.


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