# Forms



## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 1, 2022)

Just out of curiosity...
which forms if any were you taught or do you teach?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> which forms if any were you taught?


I just can't believe that I have learned 42 different forms through my life.

Does anyboy have learned more than 42 forms?


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## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Just out of curiosity...
> which forms if any were you taught or do you teach?



Forms in JKD? There are no forms in JKD.

As for the rest of my training, Traditional Yang style (multiple forms), some Chen, some Wu and some Sun, some CMC Taijiquan. Xingyiquan, some Baguazhang, some Wing Chun, some Shaolin Long fist. and a few TKD forms too, and there may be some I forgot.... I have no idea how many forms I have learned over the years... a lot that is all I know


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 2, 2022)

I went to a JKD school for an incredibly brief period of time (less than a month). But I do remember that the teacher there informed me they do not have any forms in JKD (or at least that JKD style/branch).


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## Flying Crane (May 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just can't believe that I have learned 42 different forms through my life.
> 
> Does anyboy have learned more than 42 forms?


Yeah, at last count it was somewhere north of 60.  Maybe 70-something.


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## brazilusa (May 2, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I went to a JKD school for an incredibly brief period of time (less than a month). But I do remember that the teacher there informed me they do not have any forms in JKD (or at least that JKD style/branch).


Depending on when they learned, usually. Early years sometimes still retain Sil Lum Tao from Wing Chun. A lot of drills and padwork from my experience. Often with the wooden dummy.


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## brazilusa (May 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just can't believe that I have learned 42 different forms through my life.
> 
> Does anyboy have learned more than 42 forms?


I know a few Choy Lay Fut teachers with alot of forms. And of course if you learned other systems...


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Hmm...no direct answers

So no one here even learned the tradition Jeet Kune Do form Ung Moon?


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## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Hmm...no direct answers
> 
> So no one here even learned the tradition Jeet Kune Do form Ung Moon?



I have trained briefly on 2 sides of the JKD fence, JKD philosophy and JKD as Bruce taught. Never heard of any form in JKD. And I'd be willing to bet money that no form ever came from Bruce Lee


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Im not sure what the origin of Ung Moon is to be honest.

Its almost shocking none of us got the same JKD


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just can't believe that I have learned 42 different forms through my life.
> 
> Does anyboy have learned more than 42 forms?


42 forms?  
Im on my 11th form working on my 12th


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Hmm...no direct answers
> 
> So no one here even learned the tradition Jeet Kune Do form Ung Moon?


There's a couple direct answers they just seem to be inconsistent with each other lol. JKD isn't just one organization though so it makes sense


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## Oily Dragon (May 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Forms in JKD? There are no forms in JKD.


You forgot one, the form of no form.

If this were Sesame Street, we'd be at 1.  Ah ah ah.


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## Oily Dragon (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Hmm...no direct answers
> 
> So no one here even learned the tradition Jeet Kune Do form Ung Moon?


"Five Gates", maybe.

Wing Chun blocks can vary between schools anywhere from 5 basic (ng mun) to over a dozen+.  Jeet Kuen Do sustained some number of those basic blocks.

Most of them end in "sao" but not all, in Wing Chun.  JKD dropped the "sao" part, because of America.


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## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Im not sure what the origin of Ung Moon is to be honest.
> 
> Its almost shocking none of us got the same JKD



I'm not. There is the group that teaches what Bruce Lee taught and then there is the group that teaches based on philosophy which does add things along the way. 

As for aa JKD form; Have you read anything Bruce Lee wrote? A form in JKD is the antithesis of anything Bruce Lee said or did as far as JKD is concerned


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not. There is the group that teaches what Bruce Lee taught and then there is the group that teaches based on philosophy which does add things along the way.
> 
> As for aa JKD form; Have you read anything Bruce Lee wrote? A form in JKD is the antithesis of anything Bruce Lee said or did as far as JKD is concerned



Yes, I've read some of the material Bruce Lee has written.  I don't follow him word for word, although I agree with and have benefited a lot from things he wrote down.

From the sounds of what you are saying, its easy to say we were given different curriculums under the same name.  Not a big deal in my eyes. 

You sound like someone who enjoys the original/classic version of JKD.

I guess from your perspective I would have an altered/modified version of the JKD curriculum.


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not. There is the group that teaches what Bruce Lee taught and then there is the group that teaches based on philosophy which does add things along the way.
> 
> As for aa JKD form; Have you read anything Bruce Lee wrote? A form in JKD is the antithesis of anything Bruce Lee said or did as far as JKD is concerned


So you were taught no forms what so ever while learning JKD?


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> "Five Gates", maybe.
> 
> Wing Chun blocks can vary between schools anywhere from 5 basic (ng mun) to over a dozen+.  Jeet Kuen Do sustained some number of those basic blocks.
> 
> Most of them end in "sao" but not all, in Wing Chun.  JKD dropped the "sao" part, because of America.



Different people call things different names because they have different approaches/life expiriences


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## Oily Dragon (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Different people call things different names because they have different approaches/life expiriences


Pretty much.

People often forget.


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## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Yes, I've read some of the material Bruce Lee has written.  I don't follow him word for word, although I agree with and have benefited a lot from things he wrote down.
> 
> From the sounds of what you are saying, its easy to say we were given different curriculums under the same name.  Not a big deal in my eyes.
> 
> ...



I have briefly trained on both sides, what Bruce taught and concepts, I thoroughly enjoyed both of them. But one thing that seems to be a core belief in JKD is using no form as a form. So a standardized JKD form seems highly unlikely. Never heard of it from Bruce Lee or any of the first generation JKD folks


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## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> So you were taught no forms what so ever while learning JKD?



Not only never taught a form in JKD, never even heard of a form in JKD...from 3 different teachers, 2 of whom trained with first generation JKD teachers.

A standardized form goes against everything Bruce Lee ever said or wrote as it applies to JKD


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> People often forget.



Did you get any forms with the JKD you were taught?


Xue Sheng said:


> Not only never taught a form in JKD, never even heard of a form in JKD...from 3 different teachers, 2 of whom trained with first generation JKD teachers.
> 
> A standardized form goes against everything Bruce Lee ever said or wrote as it applies to JKD



Im not sure if the forms I was taught were standardised or not...there are so many form variations of forms to explore as well.

They were definitely beneficial and highly recommend.

Do you know any forms?


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## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Did you get any forms with the JKD you were taught?
> 
> 
> Im not sure if the forms I was taught were standardised or not...there are so many form variations of forms to explore as well.
> ...



Read post #3 in this thread


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## Buka (May 2, 2022)

Welcome to MartialTalk, SuperSnake. Hope you enjoy it here.


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Read post #3 in this thread



Ahhh yess....I must've skimmed over that portion of the thread.  
Thanks for bringing it to my attention


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 2, 2022)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, SuperSnake. Hope you enjoy it here.


thank you....but its actually pronounced SuperSnakeCrane87 

I enjoy this website


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## Oily Dragon (May 2, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Did you get any forms with the JKD you were taught?


Yes.  

JKD is a form.

Who else didn't get my Count joke?


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## Xue Sheng (May 3, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Im not sure if the forms I was taught were standardised or not...there are so many form variations of forms to explore as well.
> 
> They were definitely beneficial and highly recommend.



Also should say, IMO, based on my little experience with JKD and lots of reading...forms, standardized or not, beneficial or not, make it "not" Jeet Kune Do.

May be great, may be effective, but IMO, it is not JKD


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Also should say, IMO, based on my little experience with JKD and lots of reading...forms, standardized or not, beneficial or not, make it "not" Jeet Kune Do.
> 
> May be great, may be effective, but IMO, it is not JKD


Ok.  I acknowledge what you said to me.

Sorry if what Im saying is bothering you.


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## Xue Sheng (May 3, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Ok.  I acknowledge what you said to me.
> 
> Sorry if what Im saying is bothering you.



Doesn't bother me, just felt the need to respond to that point. You do what you want. Just put it there for anyone who may come across this later


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 3, 2022)

Oh ok.

Define bother

If something you read creates an internal reaction in you so badly you have to start moving your mind and fingers to say something back...you got bothered


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## Dirty Dog (May 3, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Oh ok.
> 
> Define bother
> 
> If something you read creates an internal reaction in you so badly you have to start moving your mind and fingers to say something back...you got bothered


So by your definition, everybody who posts any reply is bothered. 
Why are you so bothered?


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 3, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Oh ok.
> Have a nice day?





Dirty Dog said:


> So by your definition, everybody who posts any reply is bothered.
> Why are you so bothered?


I just self-identify as assertive...Im also not bothered by anything


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 3, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Hmm...no direct answers
> 
> So no one here even learned the tradition Jeet Kune Do form Ung Moon?


This form? It looks like a WC form to me.

Someone said, "The Ung Moon form was created by no other than Dan Inosanto as far as I know. NOT Bruce Lee."


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## Xue Sheng (May 3, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Oh ok.
> 
> Define bother
> 
> If something you read creates an internal reaction in you so badly you have to start moving your mind and fingers to say something back...you got bothered



I'm sorry, but I go with excepted dictionary definitions of English words, not made up ones.

*bother:* (of a circumstance or event) worry, disturb, or upset (someone).

Your posts and form statements about JKD do not worry, disturb, or upset me


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This form? It looks like a WC form to me.
> 
> Someone said the Ung Moon form was created by no other than Dan Inosanto as far as I know. NOT Bruce Lee.


You wouldnt have my words on that.  The words in the video have my words.

That being said you could've been taught Ung Moon in a Wing Chun class...


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm sorry, but I go with excepted dictionary definitions of English words, not made up ones.
> 
> *bother:* (of a circumstance or event) worry, disturb, or upset (someone).
> 
> Your posts and form statements about JKD do not worry, disturb, or upset me


Hey whatever the dictionary says bro and thats all there is

I want you to know you specifically have my permission to be as bothered/unbothered, as you PERSONALLY would like to be, by anything and everything I say.


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## Xue Sheng (May 3, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Hey whatever the dictionary says bro and thats all there is
> 
> I want you to know you specifically have my permission to be as bothered/unbothered, as you PERSONALLY would like to be, by anything and everything I say.



Now you're just trying to get an argument going and being rather silly. I will not waste my time on this any longer. I have said what I wanted and have no desire to help you in what I suspect your real goal is here

Have a nice day


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Now you're just trying to get an argument going and being rather silly. I will not waste my time on this any longer. I have said what I wanted and have no desire to help you in what I suspect your real goal is here
> 
> Have a nice day


You are most definitely the victim in all this...the words between us forever as evidence.

I accept and acknowledge what I said is bothersome


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 4, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> I just self-identify as assertive...Im also not bothered by anything


So are you not having a strong enough internal reaction that you have to start moving your mind and fingers to say something back? The evidence suggests otherwise..


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## Dirty Dog (May 4, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> If something you read creates an internal reaction in you so badly you have to start moving your mind and fingers to say something back...you got bothered





SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> I just self-identify as assertive...Im also not bothered by anything


So you just contradicted yourself. You replied. By your (admittedly weird) definition of bothered... you're bothered.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 4, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, at last count it was somewhere north of 60.  Maybe 70-something.


Wow! That is incredible.


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## Flying Crane (May 4, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wow! That is incredible.


It was just way way too much, impossible to keep up with.  Kenpo, wing Chun, taiji, some Shaolin stuff, white crane.  Some other nonsense that will remain unspoken of that I stumbled into when I was not yet well educated in what is what. 

It actually felt good to let it all go.  Now it’s strictly white crane, I regularly practice seven forms, but there are some variations in there so you could count it as high as 11 or 12 but I kinda feel like that’s padding the resume.  And five weapons, hoping to bring that up a little because I forgot a couple during the hiatus when my son was born, and hoping to get them back.  It’s a work in progress.  

I kinda wish I had kept a bit of the taiji, but honestly I didn’t feel like I understood the foundation properly and I didn’t want to just make my taiji into a variant of my white crane.


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 4, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> It was just way way too much, impossible to keep up with.  Kenpo, wing Chun, taiji, some Shaolin stuff, white crane.  Some other nonsense that will remain unspoken of that I stumbled into when I was not yet well educated in what is what.
> 
> It actually felt good to let it all go.  Now it’s strictly white crane, I regularly practice seven forms, but there are some variations in there so you could count it as high as 11 or 12 but I kinda feel like that’s padding the resume.  And five weapons, hoping to bring that up a little because I forgot a couple during the hiatus when my son was born, and hoping to get them back.  It’s a work in progress.
> 
> I kinda wish I had kept a bit of the taiji, but honestly I didn’t feel like I understood the foundation properly and I didn’t want to just make my taiji into a variant of my white crane.


There is so much maintenance and upkeep.
I currently only practice Wing Chun/JKD, Modern Arnis, and BJJ

Its so much time and effort practicing something you hope never happens


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## Flying Crane (May 4, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> There is so much maintenance and upkeep.
> I currently only practice Wing Chun/JKD, Modern Arnis, and BJJ
> 
> Its so much time and effort practicing something you hope never happens


Well, and it is just too much material to get any benefit from it.  You spend all of your time simply trying to do enough to not forget any of it, you don’t have the time to work it with enough focus and regularity to actually get benefits from it, actually develop some real skill from training it.


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you just contradicted yourself. You replied. By your (admittedly weird) definition of bothered... you're bothered.



Ok?  and?  Is it a weakness to be bothered?  
If you want you can be the type to just sit there shrug and twiddle your thumbs.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 4, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> It was just way way too much, impossible to keep up with.  Kenpo, wing Chun, taiji, some Shaolin stuff, white crane.  Some other nonsense that will remain unspoken of that I stumbled into when I was not yet well educated in what is what.
> 
> It actually felt good to let it all go.  Now it’s strictly white crane, I regularly practice seven forms, but there are some variations in there so you could count it as high as 11 or 12 but I kinda feel like that’s padding the resume.  And five weapons, hoping to bring that up a little because I forgot a couple during the hiatus when my son was born, and hoping to get them back.  It’s a work in progress.
> 
> I kinda wish I had kept a bit of the taiji, but honestly I didn’t feel like I understood the foundation properly and I didn’t want to just make my taiji into a variant of my white crane.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 4, 2022)

I really only practice about 8 total, plus the Yang long form. That’s plenty for me. Other than the Tai Chi form we only work forms once or twice a week. For us it was always the thing we did at the end of the third class of the night On m-w-f after we were totally worn down. Never did much weapons training. 17 hours a week for years and years. You must have an amazing memory to keep that many up.


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## Flying Crane (May 4, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I really only practice about 8 total, plus the Yang long form. That’s plenty for me. Other than the Tai Chi form we only work forms once or twice a week. For us it was always the thing we did at the end of the third class of the night On m-w-f after we were totally worn down. Never did much weapons training. 17 hours a week for years and years. You must have an amazing memory to keep that many up.


Well, I was doing them enough that I could remember them and “perform” them without any trouble.  But I never felt like I was really improving in my skill sets, it was all just too random and not focused enough on a consistent methodology.  And to be honest, I wasn’t doing the complete body of forms at any time, there were some things that I had already moved away from by the time I was learning other things.  But I would say there were times when I was doing 30-40 on a regular basis.  I actually spend a lot of my time training by myself without partners, so I do forms on a very regular basis, but I spend more time on fundamentals than I do on forms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 4, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Ok?  and?  Is it a weakness to be bothered?


In online discussion, we should not be bothered by other people's opinions. When we open our windows, both butterfly and mosquito will all fly in.


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 4, 2022)

i just finished opening my window nothing flew in


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 4, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> i just finished opening my window nothing flew in


🤣 Very funny.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In online discussion, we should not be bothered by other people's opinions. When we open our windows, both butterfly and mosquito will all fly in.
> 
> 
> Flying Crane said:
> ...


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## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 4, 2022)

.


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## Rich Parsons (May 5, 2022)

(* Disclaimer: While I liked Bruce Lee's Movies I was not a fan boy nor thrilled by many of the Fan Boys in the 70's. Not those training with him or his first gen students just the fan boys in general. So that kept me away from JKD as a child and teenage. *) 



Hi SuperSnakeCrane87, (* I hope I got that pronunciation correctly *)

Below is a summary of this thread


> SuperSnakeCrane87 (SSC)
> Just out of curiosity...
> which forms if any were you taught or do you teach?


In the above you ask generically about forms being taught, fine question, yet very open ended based upon your replies later. 




> Xue
> 
> Forms in JKD? There are no forms in JKD.
> 
> As for the rest of my training, Traditional Yang style (multiple forms), some Chen, some Wu and some Sun, some CMC Taijiquan. Xingyiquan, some Baguazhang, some Wing Chun, some Shaolin Long fist. and a few TKD forms too, and there may be some I forgot.... I have no idea how many forms I have learned over the years... a lot that is all I know



Xue responds with a simply reply to your post. And based upon the open ended nonspecific question it is a decent personal response. 


A few more posts go by and you post the following


> SSC
> Hmm...no direct answers
> 
> So no one here even learned the tradition Jeet Kune Do form Ung Moon?


This is your first mention of a specific form for JKD, previously there was not mention of the art / style and or specific form. 
One could assume (* yet one knows where that goes for both of us *) that it was about Forms in the JKD forum, yet many people have cross posted in the couple of decades this site has been around. So not a clear way forward, so reading what you wrote is the only reasonable way forward and that is to reply about all or none or philosophy about forms. 




> XUE
> 
> I have trained briefly on 2 sides of the JKD fence, JKD philosophy and JKD as Bruce taught. Never heard of any form in JKD. And I'd be willing to bet money that no form ever came from Bruce Lee


Xue replies and clarifies an expresses an opinion - without assuming something about the other posters, nor making comments about them. 




> SSC
> 
> Im not sure what the origin of Ung Moon is to be honest.
> 
> Its almost shocking none of us got the same JKD


You then reply that you don't know the origin and that it (* the for Ung Moon *) could be outside of any JKD teachings. 
And then your expressed surprise / shock that no one got the same, which makes many of have ready the teachings and philosophy of JKD wonder which branch you might be from and why are you shocked. 




> Oily Dragon
> You forgot one, the form of no form.
> 
> If this were Sesame Street, we'd be at 1. Ah ah ah.


Oily Dragon steps in and cracks a Sesame Street Joke  
And yet he also provided the basis of JKD, the only real form is no form. 
I like that he can be both funny and informative. 



> Xue
> I'm not. There is the group that teaches what Bruce Lee taught and then there is the group that teaches based on philosophy which does add things along the way.
> 
> As for aa JKD form; Have you read anything Bruce Lee wrote? A form in JKD is the antithesis of anything Bruce Lee said or did as far as JKD is concerned


Xue is responding to you about you being shocked that he is not shocked that it is all different. 
He even brings forth that there are two main branches and the major differences. 
He asked if you have read of his (Lee's) works as both Oily and Xue have presented there really is not any Lee Forms in JKD. 




> SSC
> Yes, I've read some of the material Bruce Lee has written. I don't follow him word for word, although I agree with and have benefited a lot from things he wrote down.
> 
> From the sounds of what you are saying, its easy to say we were given different curriculums under the same name. Not a big deal in my eyes.
> ...


You acknowledge that you have read and use pieces (* which is a Bruce thing *) and then you acknowledge that there are differences and it is not a big deal. 
You then make an assumption about Xue and an Assumption about Xue towards you. 
Nothing wrong with expressing that as an opinion. 




> SSC
> So you were taught no forms what so ever while learning JKD?


You then ask a question to Xue that he has already answered. 
No Big deal. Just a question. 




> Xue
> I have briefly trained on both sides, what Bruce taught and concepts, I thoroughly enjoyed both of them. But one thing that seems to be a core belief in JKD is using no form as a form. So a standardized JKD form seems highly unlikely. Never heard of it from Bruce Lee or any of the first generation JKD folks


Xue makes a reply about your curriculum post. 



> Xue
> Not only never taught a form in JKD, never even heard of a form in JKD...from 3 different teachers, 2 of whom trained with first generation JKD teachers.
> 
> A standardized form goes against everything Bruce Lee ever said or wrote as it applies to JKD


Xue provides additional data for anyone who might be reading this later, so they know his perspective. 




> SSC
> Im not sure if the forms I was taught were standardised or not...there are so many form variations of forms to explore as well.
> 
> They were definitely beneficial and highly recommend.
> ...


You admit that the forms may not have been standard. 
And that there are variations to explore in general in forms. 
You claim they were beneficial and you would highly recommend them. 
This is contra to the general teachings of JKD from its' source. As Bruce set aside the forms and moved forward in his way. 

Then you ask again if they know any forms. 




> Xue
> 
> Read post #3 in this thread


Xue replies with the post number where he had already answered your question. 




> SSC
> Ahhh yess....I must've skimmed over that portion of the thread.
> Thanks for bringing it to my attention


You admit you missed it - no big deal - yet it is a good troll behavior to ignore posts and to continue to ask the same thing differently . 
Just expressing my opinion that it is not clear if you just missed something or being a troll or just trying to be *insert negative connotation word here *




> Xue
> Also should say, IMO, based on my little experience with JKD and lots of reading...forms, standardized or not, beneficial or not, make it "not" Jeet Kune Do.
> 
> May be great, may be effective, but IMO, it is not JKD


Xue continues to clarify for the general reader, and to express his opinion. 
Not making any attacks or snide comments about any poster of member of anyone training in any fashion , just an opinion. 




> SSC
> Ok. I acknowledge what you said to me.
> 
> Sorry if what Im saying is bothering you.


Here you acknowledge what Xue posted and then you assumed again that he (Xue) was bothered. 
See Above about this type of post and assuming 




> Xue
> Doesn't bother me, just felt the need to respond to that point. You do what you want. Just put it there for anyone who may come across this later


Xue responds with a comment of not being bothered only clarification. 




> SSC
> Oh ok.
> Define bother
> 
> If something you read creates an internal reaction in you so badly you have to start moving your mind and fingers to say something back...you got bothered


This is a common tactic of trolls, and others who just choose not to play well with others. They define a word in a manner differently than it is in the dictionary. 
Just my experience. 



> DD
> So by your definition, everybody who posts any reply is bothered.
> Why are you so bothered?


DD asked why are you bothered, as by your own definition you would be. 
And when I read up to that point I had the same questions. 




> SSC
> I just self-identify as assertive...Im also not bothered by anything


You self identify as assertive , and that your own definition of a word does not apply to you. 
To me this is another trollish behavior. Not just aggressive, just another little post to keep the tension. 
Once again my opinion. 



> Kung Fu Wang
> Provides a video of a Ung Moon Form – Intro looks to be Inosanto



Kung Fu Wang posts a video with the name of the form and it also looks based upon the intro to be Dan Inosanto organization. 




> Xue
> I'm sorry, but I go with excepted dictionary definitions of English words, not made up ones.
> 
> *bother:* (of a circumstance or event) worry, disturb, or upset (someone).
> ...


Xue provides the standardized definition of the word you used to define others. 



> SSC – Replying to Kung Fu Wang
> You wouldnt have my words on that. The words in the video have my words.
> 
> That being said you could've been taught Ung Moon in a Wing Chun class...


So that is not what you said, yet the video is saying what you said? 
To me this is confusion. Not clear and could lead to future disagreement places for you to have manufactured conflict. 
Yes, and I also teach physics in my FMA classes.  Having something be in a class does not mean it is a connection to that class. 
Years ago, after a seminar by Datu Kelly Worden a summary post had the a technique he showed was from Sonny Umpad and that it was Balintawak. I replied that it was not from the original Balintawak nor in the major branches of the grouping methodology. Some of Kelly's guys got upset and were attacking me online and such. I replied that I never said the technique would not work. I never said that Kelly didn't learn it from Sonny. What I said was that it was NOT Balintawak so the credit should go to Sonny directly not to the Balintawak family branches.  The point is that it was a Modern Arnis Seminar and Kelly shared it. It does not mean it was Modern Arnis, nor was there evidence of it being Balintawak. 




> SSC
> Hey whatever the dictionary says bro and thats all there is
> 
> I want you to know you specifically have my permission to be as bothered/unbothered, as you PERSONALLY would like to be, by anything and everything I say.


The term bro is similar to son, it used derogatorily, Condescending and Dismissively .
You then give Xue Permission to be bothered which you defined differently than the norm and assumed and brought forth. 
And then the RAISED typing voice also brings home the point of authority you are trying to argue from. 

You brought up  Bothered. You assigned it yo others. Then you defined and continue to assign it to others. 
What would you say if someone did this to you? Oh wait, I guess I am doing that with my comments about you acting like a troll. 




> Xue
> Now you're just trying to get an argument going and being rather silly. I will not waste my time on this any longer. I have said what I wanted and have no desire to help you in what I suspect your real goal is here
> 
> Have a nice day


Xue calls you out for your actions and expresses his opinion that you are insisting there is an argument and that you are being silly in the process. He then says he is done with this discussion of this point any more. 




> SSC
> You are most definitely the victim in all this...the words between us forever as evidence.
> 
> I accept and acknowledge what I said is bothersome


You accuse / assume that someone else is the victim and then imply that the evidence is otherwise. 
Review this post. The evidence is that this site is the victim of your Bothersome or should I say Trollish behaviors. 



> DD
> So you just contradicted yourself. You replied. By your (admittedly weird) definition of bothered... you're bothered.


DD brings up that you contradicted yourself - using your own definition. 



> SSC – reply to DD
> 
> Ok? and? Is it a weakness to be bothered?
> If you want you can be the type to just sit there shrug and twiddle your thumbs.


Now you back track on is being bothered an issue, in your previous posts it sure seems to be. 
Then you become insulting with your follow up . 
This is another trollish behavior in my opinion. 



> SSC
> .


Was this a miss post? 
Or was it the passive aggressive post to get the last post?


----------



## Flying Crane (May 5, 2022)

Holy crap Rich, how long did it take you to put that together?


----------



## Rich Parsons (May 5, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Holy crap Rich, how long did it take you to put that together?



I just copied the posts into Word. 
Then I copied and pasted [*quote*] and [*/quote*] without the stars. 
I also got interrupted a few times with other posts and Facebook and such. 

The correct answer is longer than I should have spent on it.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 5, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> I just copied the posts into Word.
> Then I copied and pasted [*quote*] and [*/quote*] without the stars.
> I also got interrupted a few times with other posts and Facebook and such.
> 
> The correct answer is longer than I should have spent on it.


You are more dedicated than I am, that is for sure.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 5, 2022)

@Rich Parsons 
I really wish there was a like for "darn impressive" 👍


----------



## SuperSnakeCrane87 (May 5, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> (* Disclaimer: While I liked Bruce Lee's Movies I was not a fan boy nor thrilled by many of the Fan Boys in the 70's. Not those training with him or his first gen students just the fan boys in general. So that kept me away from JKD as a child and teenage. *)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well thats your perspective and your entitled to it.

Unfortunately since you can't seem to understand mine maybe try not commenting on the threads I create since we seem to "miscommunicate"


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 5, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I kinda wish I had kept a bit of the taiji, but honestly I didn’t feel like I understood the foundation properly and I didn’t want to just make my taiji into a variant of my white crane.


You should have. 

Water element, wood, crane, and snake go well together.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 5, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This form? It looks like a WC form to me.
> 
> Someone said, "The Ung Moon form was created by no other than Dan Inosanto as far as I know. NOT Bruce Lee."


It's a mix of southern Chinese forms.  

When we talk about Wing Chun, we need to talk about southern China.


----------



## Rich Parsons (May 6, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Well thats your perspective and your entitled to it.
> 
> Unfortunately since you can't seem to understand mine maybe try not commenting on the threads I create since we seem to "miscommunicate"



1) You cannot tell anyone on this site where they can comment. 
2) I do understand you. 
3) We are more alike than you would like to admit, as I just reflected or mirrored you and added some analytics 

Peace be with you.


----------



## Buka (May 6, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> Just out of curiosity...
> which forms if any were you taught or do you teach?


None.


----------



## isshinryuronin (May 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In online discussion, we should not be bothered by other people's opinions. When we open our windows, both butterfly and mosquito will all fly in.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In online discussion, we should not be bothered by other people's opinions. When we open our windows, both butterfly and mosquito will all fly in.


Not if your screen is in good repair. That'll stop the butterfly. Nothing seems to stop the mosquito though. Just have to swat or spray them.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 6, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Nothing seems to stop the mosquito though. Just have to swat or spray them.


Smoke works.  It messes with their targeting senses, they home in on things like CO2 in your exhalations.

Citronella candles don't produce enough to be useful, really. 

In the bush, though, a good smoke is basic campfire bug defense.  They mostly come at night.  Mostly.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Smoke works.  It messes with their targeting senses, they home in on things like CO2 in your exhalations.
> 
> Citronella candles don't produce enough to be useful, really.
> 
> In the bush, though, a good smoke is basic campfire bug defense.  They mostly come at night.  Mostly.


I go with huge amounts of DEET. I was nearly killed by a mosquito so I get aggressive.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Smoke works.  It messes with their targeting senses, they home in on things like CO2 in your exhalations.
> 
> Citronella candles don't produce enough to be useful, really.
> 
> In the bush, though, a good smoke is basic campfire bug defense.  They mostly come at night.  Mostly.


🤣Mostly…lol.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I go with huge amounts of DEET. I was nearly killed by a mosquito so I get aggressive.


I hear that.  Mosquito illnesses are no joke.

A friend of mine just returned to the US from Central America. She caught Dengue Fever there, but she's doing ok.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I hear that.  Mosquito illnesses are no joke.
> 
> A friend of mine just returned to the US from Central America. She caught Dengue Fever there, but she's doing ok.


That's what got me. Sepsis and a GI bleed. The name "break bone fever" is very apt.


----------



## Thunder Foot (May 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not only never taught a form in JKD, never even heard of a form in JKD...from 3 different teachers, 2 of whom trained with first generation JKD teachers.
> 
> A standardized form goes against everything Bruce Lee ever said or wrote as it applies to JKD


Hey Xue,
This actually isn't true. Bruce Lee did indeed create the Ng Mun form. It was his synopsis on Wing Chun SLT as he struggled to teach early Wing Chun principles without forms, to North American newbie students (to gung fu) with no idea of what it was. Not only was Ng Mun a form that Bruce did indeed teach, it wasn't the only one. You can catch both Jesse Glover and Howard Williams in interview talking about a few of the forms they learned in those earlier days. As Bruce moved toward adoption of boxing and fencing principles, he did move away from continuing to run forms however.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> Hey Xue,
> This actually isn't true. Bruce Lee did indeed create the Ng Mun form. It was his synopsis on Wing Chun SLT as he struggled to teach early Wing Chun principles without forms, to North American newbie students (to gung fu) with no idea of what it was. Not only was Ng Mun a form that Bruce did indeed teach, it wasn't the only one. You can catch both Jesse Glover and Howard Williams in interview talking about a few of the forms they learned in those earlier days. As Bruce moved toward adoption of boxing and fencing principles, he did move away from continuing to run forms however.


Hey Thunder Foot, been awhile...how are you?

I never heard about a form in JKD, but like I said, my JKD training was brief, with 3 different teachers, but still brief.

Was it called JKD at that time or was he still calling it Jun Fan?


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 10, 2022)

Consider this.

The Dao of Jeet Kuen Do was not authored by Bruce, it was edited and organized and published posthumously from his notes, by his students and wife.  So most people alive who didn't train with him directly are kind of stuck with this posthumous text (which is more philosophy than anything), unless they can find a good legit teacher (which is not easy, a lot of these great teachers do not run schools).

And Bruce never really gave up on Chinese styles he had developed.  If you've trained Wing Chun or Jun Fan, you probably recognize that he was trying to make sure that whatever he taught/you learned, it actually works.  And in the movies like Enter the Dragon, kung Fu has to look functional.  And he made it work, like many of his predecessors, through hard training.

Dan Inosanto knows more forms than most people alive, and he still teaches many.  IF JKD was really "the one", he wouldn't teach the rest.  So when Bruce told him keep what works, throw out what doesn't etc...makes you wonder what got thrown out.  Not a lot, based on what is still found in a decent JKD school.

Philosophically (from his own notes) this is what Bruce meant by having no form, your forms grow to infinity as you unlock your personal potential.  For me personally, that did happen somewhere around my middle years when I'd learned a bunch of styles and recognized what they had in common...core athletic principles, agility, timing, resistance, and so on.


----------



## Thunder Foot (May 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hey Thunder Foot, been awhile...how are you?
> 
> I never heard about a form in JKD, but like I said, my JKD training was brief, with 3 different teachers, but still brief.
> 
> Was it called JKD at that time or was he still calling it Jun Fan?


I'm good, thanks. A google query on enlightenment brought me here of all things Lol. Hope you've been well.
As for the form, it was both before and after. Jesse trained at a time before Bruce coined the term... Howard, after he coined the term. But in both cases, they both recognized that they were practicing the same principles at different levels of refinement. Even the Ng Mun form itself looks to eliminate passive blocking and emphasize simultaneous attack defense (of WC), which is at the core of interception.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 10, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> Hey Xue,
> This actually isn't true. Bruce Lee did indeed create the Ng Mun form. It was his synopsis on Wing Chun SLT as he struggled to teach early Wing Chun principles without forms, to North American newbie students (to gung fu) with no idea of what it was. Not only was Ng Mun a form that Bruce did indeed teach, it wasn't the only one. You can catch both Jesse Glover and Howard Williams in interview talking about a few of the forms they learned in those earlier days. As Bruce moved toward adoption of boxing and fencing principles, he did move away from continuing to run forms however.


It's a guess, as I was also never shown a "Ng Mun" form, but Hung Ga has "Sei Mun" (4 Gates), which basically covers 4 directions of attack/defense.

It's beginner stuff but very important to quite a few styles, and especially important for san da training.  The gates/bridges system is found all over, you need to learn those principles in some form.

Dare I ask, is there video somewhere of Ng Mun or is that the unicorn?  If Ng Mun does mean "5 Gates", there's got to be a list somewhere...


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> I'm good, thanks. A google query on enlightenment brought me here of all things Lol. Hope you've been well.
> As for the form, it was both before and after. Jesse trained at a time before Bruce coined the term... Howard, after he coined the term. But in both cases, they both recognized that they were practicing the same principles at different levels of refinement. Even the Ng Mun form itself looks to eliminate passive blocking and emphasize simultaneous attack defense (of WC), which is at the core of interception.



Makes since, due to Bruce Lee's Wing Chun background, I just never heard of it, thanks, now I know. Also based on the little exposure to Jun Fan I had (where I labeled it WIng Chun on Steroids.. I liked it..a lot by the way) the elimination of passive blocking and emphasize simultaneous attack defense (of WC) makes sense.

The big question is.....have you achieve enlightenment


----------



## Thunder Foot (May 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's a guess, as I was also never shown a "Ng Mun" form, but Hung Ga has "Sei Mun" (4 Gates), which basically covers 4 directions of attack/defense.
> 
> It's beginner stuff but very important to quite a few styles, and especially important for san da training.  The gates/bridges system is found all over, you need to learn those principles in some form.
> 
> Dare I ask, is there video somewhere of Ng Mun or is that the unicorn?  If Ng Mun does mean "5 Gates", there's got to be a list somewhere...


There are several videos online of the form. None of Bruce himself doing the form as he tended to showcase those forms that were visually impressive to land his roles. But yes, the form does mean 5 gates and its (edit: PRINCIPLES) borrowed from WC. Other styles refer to them differently, but since WC is primarily CQC, the gates refer to 2upper, 2lower, and 1base. I also learned the same in WC, validating the origin, though different Sifu interpretations may vary. Some say 4, some 6, some 6 + in or out for 12. etc etc.



> Philosophically (from his own notes) this is what Bruce meant by having no form, your forms grow to infinity as you unlock your personal potential. For me personally, that did happen somewhere around my middle years when I'd learned a bunch of styles and recognized what they had in common...core athletic principles, agility, timing, resistance, and so on.


This is an interesting take, and I respect it... but my experience has been quite the opposite to this description. May be a topic for another thread but having "No Form" from my vantage point, stems from Daoist/Do-ist philosophy as we know and means to reduce/refine ourselves in various ways, but moreso to reduce our movements in specific relation to physical. Once we have reached a proficient base level, reducing preparatory movement, reducing recovery movements, reducing variety of reflexive responses to causes, reducing labels and distinction between techniques, all are examples of being in sync with Dao/Do. In a tangible example to help explain, understanding that the only true characteristic difference between a hook and an upper is degree of tilt. So these techs are thus situational and circumstantially inferred by the target/opponent, therefore everything from hook to upper and every degree of angle in between is essentially the same. So "I" don't need to concern myself with right or wrong tech selection, or hook or upper labels, or different interpretations of the two techs from various styles etc. etc.... but rather just respond to a given cause when it presents itself. We have to train to be present in the moment to do this effectively. And that may be simplifying some things a bit, but it is the jist.

It's the 'Do' in JKD and actively maintains the principle of Do/Daoism. Those who study Do/Daoism will find the principle is also analogous to other tenets of Doism, like "mo-sam" or the mind of no mind, "mo wai" or the action of no-action. etc. etc. Quite fitting for the way of no-way, or the style of no-style, or form of no-form in my opinion.  Unfortunately not enough of us are intrigued enough to investigate Do/Daoism that the style is based on, and are instead scared off from the possibility of dogmatic religious doctrine.


----------



## Thunder Foot (May 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Makes since, due to Bruce Lee's Wing Chun background, I just never heard of it, thanks, now I know. Also based on the little exposure to Jun Fan I had (where I labeled it WIng Chun on Steroids.. I liked it..a lot by the way) the elimination of passive blocking and emphasize simultaneous attack defense (of WC) makes sense.
> 
> The big question is.....have you achieve enlightenment


Ha! Working toward it daily😇


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 10, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> So "I" don't need to concern myself with right or wrong tech selection, or hook or upper labels, or different interpretations of the two techs from various styles etc. etc.... but rather just respond to a given cause when it presents itself.


"I do not hit.  It hits all by itself".

Sure.  


Thunder Foot said:


> It's the 'Do' in JKD and actively maintains the principle of Do/Daoism. Those who study Do/Daoism will find the principle is also analogous to other tenets of Doism, like "mo-sam" or the mind of no mind, "mo wai" or the action of no-action. etc. etc. Quite fitting for the way of no-way, or the style of no-style, or form of no-form in my opinion.  Unfortunately not enough of us are intrigued enough to investigate Do/Daoism that the style is based on, and are instead scared off from the possibility of dogmatic religious doctrine.


What I said about "no form" really being 1 form, but really infinite forms, is so Daoist, "I" can't contain it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 10, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> Ha! Working toward it daily😇


"Ask me about my mind".

Those zany JKD dudes...

*





						Every Martial Art invites a weird friend. Sensei Seth video that had me cracking up and groaning.
					

Could have posted in Boxing forum, or Karate, or JKD, Aikido, TKD, Bartitsu, Aikido, etc.  Basically martial arts roasting good for a chuckle or at lease a real grin.  Regards Brian



					www.martialtalk.com
				



*


----------



## Thunder Foot (May 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> "I do not hit.  It hits all by itself".
> 
> Sure.
> 
> What I said about "no form" really being 1 form, but really infinite forms, is so Daoist, "I" can't contain it.


lol, love that! I was taking stance against your "accumulation of forms until infinity" point tho. That actually does not follow the principle of Do/Dao.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 10, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> lol, love that! I was taking stance against your "accumulation of forms until infinity" point tho. Thats actually not Daoist.


Well, it can be, if infinity and one are considered to be the same.  That's the essence of the Taiji, and the circle.

Some people scoop up a lot of techniques, and have to figure out how to mix it all together, and yet somehow recall, when teaching others, that they are the interplay between two extremes.  A Triune.

Buried in Bruce's words are the basic "soft in hard, hard in soft" Shaolin stuff he learned as a kid.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Buried in Bruce's words are the basic "soft in hard, hard in soft" Shaolin stuff he learned as a kid.


My Taijiquan Shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh...... "internal, external..... end up the same if you train them right"


----------



## Thunder Foot (May 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well, it can be, if infinity and one are considered to be the same.  That's the essence of the Taiji, and the circle.
> 
> Some people scoop up a lot of techniques, and have to figure out how to mix it all together, and yet somehow recall, when teaching others, that they are the interplay between two extremes.
> 
> Buried in Bruce's words are the basic "soft in hard, hard in soft" Shaolin stuff he learned as a kid.


I see you with the inverse analogy there. You're right, that is a point to be made. If 1 human being had the capacity to actually scoop up all the techniques in 1 lifetime maybe. Even still, I think that person will still go through the same stage of refinement/reduction, so ending in the same place. The two extremes are illusionary because they are made of the same stuff.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> My Taijiquan Shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh...... "internal, external..... end up the same if you train them right"


It's interesting how different styles tackle Daoism.  They are codified differently depending on who you leaned them from, but the general idea is still there.

The Iron Wire is a great example of the concept.  It's like a Goldilocks fist set.  Dynamic tension matters, but balance too.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 10, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> I see you with the inverse analogy there. You're right, that is a point to be made. If 1 human being had the capacity to actually scoop up all the techniques in 1 lifetime maybe. Even still, I think that person will still go through the same stage of refinement/reduction, so ending in the same place. The two extremes are illusionary because they are made of the same stuff.


Yeah and with JKD you have a great core to start from to all that underlying experience, rather than throwing darts. 

Throwing darts in the CMA is super fun, but time consuming and expensive...


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2022)

Back to JKD and forms and such.... back when I trained JKD, the first time, I ended up with my own view of that the "Classical mess" was, that Bruce Lee spoke of...with a little help from Novell Bell, and Dennis Rovere, as it applied to Xingyiquan. In xingyiquan we were so hung up on the form and the stance and getting it all correct, all the while forgetting it is for fighting and fights do not go piquan, zuanquan, bengquan, paoquan bengquan. I also am one of those guys that likes the Bruce Lee quote "Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back." 

Basically my short stint in JKD taught me one heck of a lot about XIgyiquan, and if my knees, and hip, would allow it I'd go back and train more JKD. Although I'm not sure my eye doctor would like the idea.


----------



## Thunder Foot (May 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yeah and with JKD you have a great core to start from to all that underlying experience, rather than throwing darts.
> 
> Throwing darts in the CMA is super fun, but time consuming and expensive...


Why did I automatically think you were talking about biu jeeand the actual throwing darts
, lol. CMA is extremely expensive for quality teaching, definitely.


----------



## Yanli (May 10, 2022)

SuperSnakeCrane87 said:


> There is so much maintenance and upkeep.
> I currently only practice Wing Chun/JKD, Modern Arnis, and BJJ
> 
> Its so much time and effort practicing something you hope never happens


  Never see it as practicing for something that you hope never happens, see it as practicing for the enjoyment of the skills you are gaining.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> "internal, external..... end up the same if you train them right"


The only issue is the "internal" Taiji people may think to "push" people away is more important that to throw their people down.

A: Why "shin bite" is not part of the Taiji PH training?
B: Because it's against the Taiji principle "relaxation".
A: ...


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The only issue is the "internal" Taiji people may think to "push" people away is more important that throw their people down.
> 
> A: Why "shin bite" is not part of the Taiji PH training?
> B: Because it's against the Taiji principle "relaxation".
> A: ...



Not in my experience with Taijiquan, lots of qinna and Shuaijiao in taijiquan. As a matter of fact Tung Ying Chieh was a big fan of qinna. Also no emphasis on "push" from Chen Zhenglei either. And lastly not a big thing from the people I have trained with that come from William CC Chen. So I will just say, I don't know where you get that from, unless it is Taiwan, but emphasis on push is not in my experience with taijiquan. And if you study the 13 postures, you would see it is not

Edit: However I should add, that my experience is likely not in the norm of Taijiquan these days. These days most doing taiji are doing it for health and the taiji dance


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 10, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> Why did I automatically think you were talking about biu jeeand the actual throwing darts


Cheung Kiu.  The final inch bridge.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not in my experience with Taijiquan, lots of qinna and Shuaijiao in taijiquan. As a matter of fact Tung Ying Chieh was a big fan of qinna. Also no emphasis on "push" from Chen Zhenglei either. And lastly not a big thing from the people I have trained with that come from William CC Chen. So I will just say, I don't know where you get that from, unless it is Taiwan, but emphasis on push is not in my experience with taijiquan. And if you study the 13 postures, you would see it is not
> 
> Edit: However I should add, that my experience is likely not in the norm of Taijiquan these days. These days most doing taiji are doing it for health and the taiji dance







In this clip, you can only see "push". You don't see any kind of "leg control".


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In this clip, you can only see "push". You don't see any kind of "leg control".



but that is one clip, not even a good statistical sample. But even with this clip, if you know what you're looking at, it is not all push. First are versions of pull (Cai) the first push does not appear until about 50 seconds in, and push continues until about 1:30. The shoulder strike (Cao) then push again. Also you are using a short clip of push hands, which is a drill, not a confrontation, that is stationary, also not a good example. There are multiple drills in Traditional Yang Taijiquan for various types of push hands, 3 step, 4 corner, 1 step, etc, and then there is free style. 
But with that said a push with fajin can do quite a bit to know someone on the ground. The idea of taijiquan and its proper usage is not to muscle your way over your opponent, it is to use his force against him

All I can say is it is not my experience in 30 years of Taijiquan.

Add to this

Like I said, 13 postures, study them, and you will see it is more than push


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In this clip, you can only see "push". You don't see any kind of "leg control".


I would be surprised to see leg techinques much in a drill called "push hands". I train fair bit of leg technique, and also use a similar push hands drill for training specific kinds of control. You'll never see the leg techniques in our push hands unless someone is monkeying around. And students aren't allowed to monkey around in this drill. That's reserved for the instructor.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I would be surprised to see leg techinques much in a drill called "push hands". I train fair bit of leg technique, and also use a similar push hands drill for training specific kinds of control. You'll never see the leg techniques in our push hands unless someone is monkeying around. And students aren't allowed to monkey around in this drill. That's reserved for the instructor.



Some versions of Chen style have them, trained a bit of that once. But mostly knee against knee to uproot. But there are leg sweeps in Traditional Yang


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You'll never see the leg techniques in our push hands unless someone is monkeying around.


Here you may assume that the leg skill is less important than the hand skill.

I won't say which one is more important than the other. In Taiji PH range, you can use hand to pull your opponent's leg. You can also use leg to pull your opponent's leg. You don't need any extra footwork to achieve this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here you may assume that the leg skill is less important than the hand skill.
> 
> I won't say which one is more important than the other. In Taiji PH range, you can use hand to pull your opponent's leg. You can also use leg to pull your opponent's leg. You don't need any extra footwork to achieve this.
> 
> ...


I find both useful. I just don’t have or know many drills that involve both.


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## isshinryuronin (May 12, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> we were so hung up on the form and the stance and getting it all correct, all the whisnile forgetting it is for fighting and fights


True.  In the not too distant past, I was a stickler for my students (and myself) having just the right hand placement and stance.  Afterall, isn't one of MA's goals mastery over body control?  

"The back foot should be angled at 40 degrees.  The elbow should be at a 90 degree angle.  The feet should be shoulder distance apart with the front one 2 inches ahead of the toe-heel line."  I'm sure we've all heard such things many times as students.  

Body position is important, at least insofar as positioning affects one's techniques, fighting posture and balance. But this can be taken too far, to the point where "good form" is stressed  merely for form's sake, unrelated to combat effectiveness.  Plus, body proportion differs among individuals, and the "correct" stance for one may not be ideal for another.

Looking at the earliest videos of Okinawan masters (perhaps Chinese as well?  I'm not qualified to judge) it can be seen that they were not anal about exact positioning.  As I've mentioned a couple of times, they would not fare well in kata competition.  

Their kata seem informal, even "sloppy" by today's TMA performance standards, with little posing, pomp and circumstance.  Nevertheless, their skill is still evident.  While _kiai_ is often strenuously vocalized nowadays, it is often lacking in the older, traditional masters.  If they do kiai, it is done (sometimes just internally) as they feel the need, not necessarily at a mandated point.  That's because they did not learn MA as a sport or performance art.  If you do, that's OK, as long as you know where you are in the MA scheme of things.

Perhaps for beginners, following strict doctrine is reasonable.  But after a couple of years they should be given more leash to find their own comfort zone as they eventually realize that many minute details do not really matter (though some do!) and concentrate on surviving a fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2022)

Form is used to polish skill. It's not used to develop skill. You have to develop skill before you have something to polish.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Form is used to polish skill. It's not used to develop skill. You have to develop skill before you have something to polish.


Learn the rules first to break them later…


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## Oily Dragon (May 12, 2022)

Who was talking about the Wing Chun/JKD double meat cleaver form?  Hell yeah.

That's a real thing, the double knife forms are central to a lot of southern Chinese kung fu, but particularly Wing Chun.  You can find them all over Asia.

Mother daughter, Mother son, butterfly, Baat Jaam Do, they have a long history on the Red Boats, especially for cooking.

Want to know a great way to become absolutely lethal with double kung fu butcher knives?  Become a chef.


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## Thunder Foot (May 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Who was talking about the Wing Chun/JKD double meat cleaver form?  Hell yeah.
> 
> That's a real thing, the double knife forms are central to a lot of southern Chinese kung fu, but particularly Wing Chun.  You can find them all over Asia.
> 
> ...


I think Bruce moved away from the BJD and toward the Italian Rapier in the later development.


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## mograph (May 26, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> My Taijiquan Shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh...... "internal, external..... end up the same if you train them right"


A friend of mind described two paths up a mountain: one is steep early, flat-ish later, while the other is flat-ish early, steep later.
But both lead to the summit.


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## Oily Dragon (May 26, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> I think Bruce moved away from the BJD and toward the Italian Rapier in the later development.


And in the Daoist sense, combined the two, sure.  I'll buy that for a dollar. Sometimes, you only have one knife.

He couldn't cook, from what I've read, he ordered out a lot.  It's easy to find out what he liked to eat, but he left behind few recipes.


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## _Simon_ (May 27, 2022)

mograph said:


> A friend of mind described two paths up a mountain: one is steep early, flat-ish later, while the other is flat-ish early, steep later.
> But both lead to the summit.


I really really like that


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## _Simon_ (May 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> And in the Daoist sense, combined the two, sure.  I'll buy that for a dollar. Sometimes, you only have one knife.
> 
> He couldn't cook, from what I've read, he ordered out a lot.  It's easy to find out what he liked to eat, but he left behind few recipes.


"The Tao of Cajun Gumbo"?


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## Oily Dragon (May 27, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> "The Tao of Cajun Gumbo"?


The best things I learned from kung fu were the cooking recipes.  It's not all about the jows and medicinal liniments; eating properly is a big part of the kung fu lifestyle.

Spicy peppers, it turns out, are great for training supplementation.

Not to mention the Cajun Trinity provides plenty of hydration, cellulose fiber, and of course french style onion....for heart power.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The best things I learned from kung fu were the cooking recipes.  It's not all about the jows and medicinal liniments; eating properly is a big part of the kung fu lifestyle.
> 
> Spicy peppers, it turns out, are great for training supplementation.
> 
> Not to mention the Cajun Trinity provides plenty of hydration, cellulose fiber, and of course french style onion....for heart power.


You can't just put that out there and not post some in a thread called kung fu recipes


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## Oily Dragon (May 28, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You can't just put that out there and not post some in a thread called kung fu recipes


Challenge accepted.

Roasted Wing Chun Lineage Warrior is going to be my first one.


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## Thunder Foot (Jun 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> And in the Daoist sense, combined the two, sure.  I'll buy that for a dollar. Sometimes, you only have one knife.
> 
> He couldn't cook, from what I've read, he ordered out a lot.  It's easy to find out what he liked to eat, but he left behind few recipes.


Lot of similarities between Rapier dagger and BJD, much like there are alot of similarities between WC and John L. Sullivan era boxing. I think the underlining premise is the driving principles of implementation and Lee's sources for them.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 4, 2022)

Thunder Foot said:


> Lot of similarities between Rapier dagger and BJD,


Are there? I am unfamiliar with BJD, but intimately familiar with rapier & dagger. Can you expand on this statement?


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## Thunder Foot (Jun 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Are there? I am unfamiliar with BJD, but intimately familiar with rapier & dagger. Can you expand on this statement?


This statement is my personal opinion based on my experience. IMHO there's some qualifiable technical similarities dependant on what is compared. There are variables between WC lineages as to how some moves are interpreted, and then of course there are variations to the moves themselves. But outside of all that, we can see similarities in some of the principles. The 4 cardinal hand positions to the 4 gates of WC (heaven earth). The angles of attack,  simultaneous attack and defense, many of the disarms, and basic footwork. We've only covered fabris and giganti thus far so my perspective is based on them. I'm no expert with rapier, but myself and those I train in HEMA with have noticed similarities.


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