# The Perfect Rules?



## KangTsai (Dec 31, 2016)

The MMA ruleset (Bellator and UFC), although as close to real fighting you can get in an organised, legal way these days, still has giant flaws holding it back from the sport's potential.

Rules I don't like-


No kicking grounded targets on the head - I don't really see a reason for this being a problem. It was in PrideFC, nobody got injured, and it lead to some frankly awesome moments like Vanderlei Silva's ground axe kick knockout.
No down elbows - So, an elbow thrown sort of downwards is okay but straight downwards isn't? I perfectly understand. RIP Jon Jones' undefeated status.
The gloves - I don't have a precise solution, but MMA gloves are frankly no better than small boxing gloves. They handicap grapplers and do nothing to protect fighters from serious concussive injuries.
The point system - It is really not an accurate way of determining a winner. I say just get rid of it and host infinite rounds until a/n in/voluntary stoppage occurs. Maybe even one endless round with it counting as a no contest if the fight exceeds 45 minutes or something.
Shorts freedom - Make everybody wear spandex. No problems have happened with skintight clothes ever.
No striking the back of head - Dumb. Backs of heads get struck all the time, they're just considered "accidental." What's gently hammer-fisting the back of someone's head when you can kick their head with a biological baseball bat?

Basically almost every Joe Rogan complaint (except the one about replacing the cage with a sanda arena, I think that the cage introduces more depth but the sanda arena has its own advantages).
Suggestions encouraged.


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## Kickboxer101 (Dec 31, 2016)

No..that's just a stupid thing to say. Soccer kicks are extremely dangerous and it's very lucky no ones gotten seriously hurt that we know of. Kicking an unconscious man in the head that goes beyond a sport that's just being a thug. 

Have you ever been In the back of the head? There's a soft spot there that can cause serious damage.

Without the rules we have mma wouldn't be around today. The rules are fine as they are.


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## Tez3 (Dec 31, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> It was in PrideFC, nobody got injured,



Oh they did, badly.



KangTsai said:


> No down elbows - So, an elbow thrown sort of downwards is okay but straight downwards isn't?



there is a very good reason for that rule.



KangTsai said:


> Shorts freedom - Make everybody wear spandex. No problems have happened with skintight clothes ever.



That is extremely silly.



KangTsai said:


> The point system - It is really not an accurate way of determining a winner. I say just get rid of it and host infinite rounds until a/n in/voluntary stoppage occurs.



That is totally impractical for many reasons, no one would promote shows like that. No one would fight in shows that did this.


I hate to sound patronising but I think you have little to no idea about MMA either the training, fighting, reffing or promoting of it. I have and I can tell you there is good reason for those rules, it's a sport not an amusement in the Roman circus.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> The MMA ruleset (Bellator and UFC), although as close to real fighting you can get in an organised, legal way these days, still has giant flaws holding it back from the sport's potential.
> 
> Rules I don't like-
> 
> ...



Actually seen that and the poor bugger was touch and go. As Kickboxer has said, it is dangerous, and yes I intimately know how it feels to take a back head shot. Downward elbows can also be deadly, so you would rather see a fighter maimed or killed in the cage?


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## Tez3 (Dec 31, 2016)

MMA is a sport, with rules for the fighters safety, if you don't like them then don't watch MMA. Many so called fans think they know better than the professionals ( happens in most sports and activities) some fans want to watch maiming, and perhaps even death, well sadly for them that's not going to happen. If you want to watch kicks to the head of downed opponents and downward elbows etc I suggest you follow the national football teams where the fans takes a delight in fighting outside of the stadia. The rules you suggest are the domain of thugs not martial arts fighters.


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## Kickboxer101 (Dec 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Actually seen that and the poor bugger was touch and go. As Kickboxer has said, it is dangerous, and yes I intimately know how it feels to take a back head shot. Downward elbows can also be deadly, so you would rather see a fighter maimed or killed in the cage?


Absolutely back head shots hurt. Before Christmas I was doing a technique and I caught my partner with a hammer fist to the back of the hard, it had literally barely any power and no hip rotation it was a weak arm shot. It was just meant to place but he moved up thinking I was dumb and it caught him and he yelled out and was rubbing his head and looked dazed and that was from a 1% power shot imagine someone going 100%


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Absolutely back head shots hurt. Before Christmas I was doing a technique and I caught my partner with a hammer fist to the back of the hard, it had literally barely any power and no hip rotation it was a weak arm shot. It was just meant to place but he moved up thinking I was dumb and it caught him and he yelled out and was rubbing his head and looked dazed and that was from a 1% power shot imagine someone going 100%



Yeah, would be endgame more than likely. Yeah mine was play fighting and was not overly dazed, but saw stars for a moment or two.


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## Kickboxer101 (Dec 31, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> The MMA ruleset (Bellator and UFC), although as close to real fighting you can get in an organised, legal way these days, still has giant flaws holding it back from the sport's potential.
> 
> Rules I don't like-
> 
> ...



Also I didn't talk about couple of your other points. Infinite rounds? That's just dumb safety wise and business wise. Business wise imagine if fights kept going and going and going for a 12 fight card it could end up lasting 18 hours the whole card for example. Safety wise people getting battered and exhausted for ages and ages would seriously damage health. Why do you think they got rid of 15 round boxing matches.

Short freedom: well I have no idea where that came from they're shorts basically the same as swimming trunks no fighter seems to ever had an issue with 

The gloves: they do not handicap grapplers that's why people like Damian Maia are top guys.

Downward elbows: okay I may be wrong on this as to why it's more dangerous but this is just as a guess. A horizontal hits with the forearm and the point of the elbow is going at a different angle so I duller. But a downward one is hitting with just the point of the elbow and it makes it sharper. Again may be wrong or explaining it badly.

Tbh you sound like one of those guys you see in YouTube comments who sits at home watching mma with a beer and acting like a tough wanting them to fight to the death etc, now about you get in the cage with normal rules and feel it then see what your opinion is. Now I've competed in mma but I've done kickboxing and it's hard enough doing that without having to go infinite rounds or getting booted in the head when I'm on the floor


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## JR 137 (Dec 31, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> The MMA ruleset (Bellator and UFC), although as close to real fighting you can get in an organised, legal way these days, still has giant flaws holding it back from the sport's potential.
> 
> Rules I don't like-
> 
> ...



I haven't watched MMA since the early days, but these rules were all added after the first few UFCs. And for good reasons.

I can't remember names, but a Savate fighter kicked a downed Sumo fighter in the head.  A tooth (or two) went flying a few rows back.  The way his neck torqued in slo mo, he was quite lucky he got out on his own.

What do you think a straight downward elbow would do to the spine or back of the head?

There were "fights" where people would hold their opponent in the guard for 45 minutes.  A lot of people don't want to pay to watch what looked like two guys taking a nap.  This was around the time that I lost interest too.

And so on.

The rules weren't all put made initially.  They're an evolution of the sport.  They were placed to protect the fighters, and to make the sport marketable.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> The MMA ruleset (Bellator and UFC), although as close to real fighting you can get in an organised, legal way these days, still has giant flaws holding it back from the sport's potential.
> 
> Rules I don't like-
> 
> ...


Please don't follow Joe Rogan.  It's easy for Joe to say these things when he's not taking those beatings in the ring.


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## Kickboxer101 (Dec 31, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Please don't follow Joe Rogan.  It's easy for Joe to say these things when he's not taking those beatings in the ring.


Completely agreed there. Rogan is a decent martial artist but he's not an mma fighter so he has no place to insult the rules I'm sure if he was in there he'd be all for the rules. One thing that annoyed me with rogan was one guy had a huge cut on his eye and the doctor was looking at it closely and rogan was mouthing off going "oh come on its fine, this doctors got to go watch some mma"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2016)

No kicking grounded targets on the head - One of my friend's son was killed this way.
No down elbows - I was almost killed this way.

No striking the back of head - IMO, the back of the head is the weakest spot in human body.
When your opponent tries to use "jump guard" or "gull guard" to drag you down, a sharp straight elbow drop on his throat (or on his heart) can kill him right there.

I'm surprise that the "knee drop" is not in this list.


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## JP3 (Dec 31, 2016)

The rules  keep it from being gladiatorial combat, allow the fighters to fight, pretty brutally, yet not (hopefully) maim each other and cause loss of years of physical abaility.  Also, certain jurisdictions, such as New York, would not allow UFC style fighting until more safe/restrictive fight rules were implemented.


So, if you want to watch UFC style fights, then you have to have UFC style rules.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

Rules are rules.


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## Kickboxer101 (Dec 31, 2016)

JP3 said:


> The rules  keep it from being gladiatorial combat, allow the fighters to fight, pretty brutally, yet not (hopefully) maim each other and cause loss of years of physical abaility.  Also, certain jurisdictions, such as New York, would not allow UFC style fighting until more safe/restrictive fight rules were implemented.
> 
> 
> So, if you want to watch UFC style fights, then you have to have UFC style rules.


Yep and New York only just approved it this year


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## Kickboxer101 (Dec 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> No kicking grounded targets on the head - One of my friend's son was killed this way.
> No down elbows - I was almost killed this way.
> 
> No striking the back of head - IMO, the back of the head is the weakest spot in human body.
> ...


I can't watch Japanese mma because of the soccer kicks. It makes me feel sick how many times have you heard about someone getting killed by getting stamped in the head and that's just regular guys imagine a fully trained in shape guy jumping on your head would do. It's honestly disgusting to me that anyone would find that fun to watch heck I even refused to do it in the ufc video game lol.

As for the back of the head being weakest spot personally I'd say It's one of the weakest but I'd put the throat or the eyes higher i mean with the eyes it only takes the smallest touch to cause huge pain


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## Headhunter (Dec 31, 2016)

Are you serious? How about you get booted in the head from the floor or hit in the back of the head or had a downward elbow then tell me it's not dangerous. People die in the ring from punches with 16 ounce gloves in boxing do you really think a shin or an elbow can't kill someone? A friend of mines son was in a coma for months after a boxing match and taking a right hook to the head that didn't look much.

If you think that would improve the sport you are seriously deluded


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2016)

"Sport" is for fun. It makes no sense to die or get serious injury in "sport" than in street fight.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> "Sport" is for fun. It makes no sense to die or get serious injury in "sport" than in street fight.



Yes the street fight has different rules, as does the sanctiond fight, or not. But yes this thread has gone South.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2016)

So nobody knows one FC. which is the second biggest mma competition in the world you American centric bastards.






And why nobody knows who Adrian Pang is.






Otherwise there is plenty of different MMA for people who want different things out of it. Ranging from Head gear and no GNP to the head on the deck. To rio heros style no gloves. To even team matches and obsticle course matches.

So there is a MMA rule set for almost everybody.


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## Tez3 (Jan 1, 2017)

The OP specifically said UFC and Bellator. And yes I've heard of Adrian Pang, I have a friend who fights out in Malaysia and Singapore ( five times on FC), Pang was on the same card as Irina Mazepa a Russian fighter who was fighting a local girl, I keep tabs on female fighters all around the world.


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## KangTsai (Jan 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So nobody knows one FC. which is the second biggest mma competition in the world you American centric bastards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a real organised HEMA match? Rules for that would be certainly interesting.


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> No kicking grounded targets on the head - One of my friend's son was killed this way.
> No down elbows - I was almost killed this way.
> 
> No striking the back of head - IMO, the back of the head is the weakest spot in human body.
> ...



When you downward elbow, what contact area?


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## Juany118 (Jan 1, 2017)

I do have to agree the gloves have to go.  Yes I get that the lack of gloves before meant more blood and that was seen as a hinderances to MMA's expansion.  It also makes for the "big hits" people tend to like and likely has sped up the pace of the fights overall.  That said there are now multiple studies showing that this is also leading to higher incidence of head trauma and concussions.  Heck some fighters are beginning to cut back on their sparring in order to minimize the concussion risk.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> Is that a real organised HEMA match? Rules for that would be certainly interesting.



Yeah.  Gaining ground slowly. The advantage is you can put those sort of fights on an undercard. So they can get exposure without needing 13 odd hema fighters for a show and a room full of dudes who are willing to pay to watch. 

As far as the rules. No idea.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I do have to agree the gloves have to go.  Yes I get that the lack of gloves before meant more blood and that was seen as a hinderances to MMA's expansion.  It also makes for the "big hits" people tend to like and likely has sped up the pace of the fights overall.  That said there are now multiple studies showing that this is also leading to higher incidence of head trauma and concussions.  Heck some fighters are beginning to cut back on their sparring in order to minimize the concussion risk.



Rio heros.

And modern bare knuckle is pretty pacey. And big hitty.


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## Juany118 (Jan 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Rio heros.
> 
> And modern bare knuckle is pretty pacey. And big hitty.



Bareknuckled boxing isn't MMA.  If you look at the stats, striking to the head/face soared with the introduction of the gloves.  Also it's not as wild haymaker big bitty as MMA.  Now of course you could ignore all the stuff that https://www.google.com/amp/amp.www....re-knuckle-boxing?client=ms-android-sprint-us

https://www.google.com/amp/www.mmal...loves-in-mma/amp/?client=ms-android-sprint-us

https://www.google.com/amp/s/combat...rate-tenfold/amp/?client=ms-android-sprint-us

Science Looks At Head and Neck Injury Risk in MMA and Boxing

Is just the tip of the iceberg.

/Shrug


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The OP specifically said UFC and Bellator. And yes I've heard of Adrian Pang, I have a friend who fights out in Malaysia and Singapore ( five times on FC), Pang was on the same card as Irina Mazepa a Russian fighter who was fighting a local girl, I keep tabs on female fighters all around the world.



Any single


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Rio heros.
> 
> And modern bare knuckle is pretty pacey. And big hitty.



And you would know?


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> And you would know?



Well yeah.  You can see it. It is not in some secret den.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Bareknuckled boxing isn't MMA.  If you look at the stats, striking to the head/face soared with the introduction of the gloves.  Also it's not as wild haymaker big bitty as MMA.  Now of course you could ignore all the stuff that https://www.google.com/amp/amp.www....re-knuckle-boxing?client=ms-android-sprint-us
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/www.mmal...loves-in-mma/amp/?client=ms-android-sprint-us
> 
> ...



Sorry kimbo slice says what?

And correlation does not mean causation. 

Or mabye even when did the jits guys stop dominating with submissions?


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Well yeah.  You can see it. It is not in some secret den.



True enough. Sorry for my loaded question, just had to ask


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Sorry kimbo slice says what?
> 
> And correlation does not mean causation.
> 
> Or mabye even when did the jits guys stop dominating with submissions?



I Ike this, look forward to the responses.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> I Ike this, look forward to the responses.



I mean ok more finishes by face punching since gloves.

Maby becase the competition was no longer dominated by submission experts. Because at some point people learned how to defend a submission.

"During this early part of the organization, the UFC would showcase a bevy of different styles and fighters. Aside from the aforementioned Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, and Patrick Smith, the competitions also featured competitors such as Hall of Famer Dan Severn, Marco Ruas, Gary Goodridge, Don Frye, Kimo Leopoldo, Oleg Taktarov, and Tank Abbott. Although the first events were dominated by jiu-jitsu, other fighting styles became successful: first wrestling, then ground and pound, kickboxing, boxing, and dirty boxing, which eventually melded into modern mixed martial arts."

"As the UFC's rules started to evolve, so too did its field of competitors. Notable UFC fighters to emerge in this era include Hall of Famers Mark Coleman, Randy Couture, Pat Miletich, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, and Tito Ortiz, as well as notables Vitor Belfort, Mark Kerr, Pedro Rizzo, Murilo Bustamante, Frank Shamrock, Mikey Burnett, Jeremy Horn, Pete Williams, Jens Pulver, Evan Tanner, Andrei Arlovski, and Wanderlei Silva, among others."

Ultimate Fighting Championship - Wikipedia


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## Transk53 (Jan 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I mean ok more finishes by face punching since gloves.
> 
> *Maby becase the competition was no linger dominated by submission experts. Because at some point people learned how to defend a submission.*
> 
> ...



A striker can always strike, probably dirty though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> When you downward elbow, what contact area?


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## Juany118 (Jan 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Sorry kimbo slice says what?
> 
> And correlation does not mean causation.
> 
> Or mabye even when did the jits guys stop dominating with submissions?



Umm, there is enough medical and biomechanical data out there that shows it is causation.  It is a fact that gloves allow people to hit harder with less chance of injury to the hand, as well as less superficial injuryHe to the head/face being struck.  It is a fact that since the gloves were introduced the number of KO's and TKO's from striking has gone up.  It is also a fact that the gloves do not actually reduce the incident of TMA/concussions and with the increase of KO's TKOs the incidence of TMA rises in relation to the pre-glove era.  A KO is actually a symptom of TMA.  There is also supporting data that the incidence of death in modern boxing is higher than the bare knuckle era.

Now should we actually care about these facts?  Does it matter, is it better or worse than other sports with hla high incidence of head trauma?  That is a different debate entirely, but the data is there.  And the consistency of the results, first in boxing and then in MMA gives a much stronger case to the argument of causation than correlation.  If we didn't have what amounts to over a century of data as it relates to the impact of gloves, on both the striker and target, maybe you would have a case for correlation over causation.

The argument surrounding the facts however kinda reminds me of the NFL denials years ago but I get why the denials are there.  Many found pre-glove MMA boring because of the bias towards grappling and long fights etc.  Also, forget about the barbaric reputation of the pre glove time period, bare knuckle boxing is an illegal sport in many places.  So from a business perspective doing away with gloves would likely hurt the sport.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Umm, there is enough medical and biomechanical data out there that shows it is causation.  It is a fact that gloves allow people to hit harder with less chance of injury to the hand, as well as less superficial injuryHe to the head/face being struck.  It is a fact that since the gloves were introduced the number of KO's and TKO's from striking has gone up.  It is also a fact that the gloves do not actually reduce the incident of TMA/concussions and with the increase of KO's TKOs the incidence of TMA rises in relation to the pre-glove era.  A KO is actually a symptom of TMA.  There is also supporting data that the incidence of death in modern boxing is higher than the bare knuckle era.
> 
> Now should we actually care about these facts?  Does it matter, is it better or worse than other sports with hla high incidence of head trauma?  That is a different debate entirely, but the data is there.  And the consistency of the results, first in boxing and then in MMA gives a much stronger case to the argument of causation than correlation.  If we didn't have what amounts to over a century of data as it relates to the impact of gloves, on both the striker and target, maybe you would have a case for correlation over causation.
> 
> The argument surrounding the facts however kinda reminds me of the NFL denials years ago but I get why the denials are there.  Many found pre-glove MMA boring because of the bias towards grappling and long fights etc.  Also, forget about the barbaric reputation of the pre glove time period, bare knuckle boxing is an illegal sport in many places.  So from a business perspective doing away with gloves would likely hurt the sport.



Your facts are kind of in question. Saying facts doesn't make them facts.

Looking at the links of these "Facts" It is not anywhere near as cut and dries as you are pretending them to be.

Mabye if a person who understands the biomecanics of striking came along and started saying the science is decided. I might be more easily convinced.

As it is I think it is more the conclusion you want it to be.  Rather than what is.

Personally I think the ten count and the crappy health rules regarding boxers are a bigger contributing factor to head trauma than gloves


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Any single



Quite a few lol, not everyone appreciates fighting women!


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## Juany118 (Jan 2, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Quite a few lol, not everyone appreciates fighting women!



The only women I treat as equals are those willing to go toe to toe with me.  Though, saddly, it's been everything but MA thus far.  Even my Wife, who shares my career, doesnt share my MA passion.  Win some lose some I suppose because all the other boxes are ticked


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## Juany118 (Jan 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Your facts are kind of in question. Saying facts doesn't make them facts.
> 
> Looking at the links of these "Facts" It is not anywhere near as cut and dries as you are pretending them to be.
> 
> ...


I don't say they are facts.  Organizations like the British Medical Association say they are such.  BUT if you think you are more knowledgeable than medical associations and those who have studied over a hundred years of competitive fighting, that is on you.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> The only women I treat as equals are those willing to go toe to toe with me.  Though, saddly, it's been everything but MA thus far.  Even my Wife, who shares my career, doesnt share my MA passion.  Win some lose some I suppose because all the other boxes are ticked



One of the difficulties for female fighters ( and athletes in all sports) is that the dedication needed to get to the top tends to preclude most outside activities including dating and relationships. One of the reasons I imagine that Ronda Rousey's mother is still so involved in her is that it's hard for other people outside the family to understand the pressures. Even the family find it hard sometimes.


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## Juany118 (Jan 2, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> One of the difficulties for female fighters ( and athletes in all sports) is that the dedication needed to get to the top tends to preclude most outside activities including dating and relationships. One of the reasons I imagine that Ronda Rousey's mother is still so involved in her is that it's hard for other people outside the family to understand the pressures. Even the family find it hard sometimes.



I get that.  She needs to prove more, as messed up as it is than I needed to.  Me.  I worked hard and simply say "did you work a case like this!?". If the answer is "nope" I am given respect on that experience.  My wife needs to point to the stripes on her shoulder to get the same respect, and that is not right and the effort she had to go through (vs me) for that respect?  Not right at all.


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## drop bear (Jan 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I don't say they are facts





Juany118 said:


> * It is a* *fact* that gloves allow people to hit harder with less chance of injury to the hand, as well as less superficial injuryHe to the head/face being struck.* It is a fact that* since the gloves were introduced the number of KO's and TKO's from striking has gone up.* It is also a fact* that the gloves do not actually reduce the incident of TMA/concussions and with the increase of KO's TKOs the incidence of TMA rises in relation to the pre-glove era. A KO is actually a symptom of TMA. There is also supporting data that the incidence of death in modern boxing is higher than the bare knuckle era.



Now I am pretty sure that you are not the british medical association. But if you can find where they have said they were facts. That might help out your cause here.


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## Transk53 (Jan 2, 2017)

She was unprepared and not with it. UFC really handle things expertly don't they.


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