# High or Low Kicks?



## MJS (Apr 23, 2008)

Many times, when the subject of kicks comes up in other areas of this forum, we have a mixed bag, with some saying they either prefer one over the other, and others saying they do both.

This is a question for the Kenpo folks out here.  What do you prefer and why?  For myself, I have thrown head high kicks in sparring.  Of course, some have landed with success and others have been countered.  As far as self defense goes, I prefer low line kicks.  Chest height and lower.  IMO, there are pleanty of good targets at that level, so why risk anything higher?

Thoughts?


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## Twin Fist (Apr 23, 2008)

I teach high kicks for flexibility, and to develop leg strength. Plus, in sparring it is fun to kick someone in the face.

For self defense?

never kick higher than than bladder.


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## Mark L (Apr 23, 2008)

I prefer to kick to open targets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  

For self defense I primarily kick to the legs and lower abdomen, success there often produces opportunities to go after "high" value targets.


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## John Brewer (Apr 23, 2008)

I like to throw higher kicks, but as said above in a self defense situation I think there are some risks involved with the higher kicks. For example whats your footing like? Are you on gravel etc.?


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## Hand Sword (Apr 23, 2008)

I always kept it at stomach level and down.


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## JTKenpo (Apr 23, 2008)

I use low kicks as set up, as striking different height zones opens other vital areas.  In a nice safe dojo and in a sparring situation I will throw high kicks all day long and I can honestly say that never have I or would I use a high kick in a real life scenario.  Of course high kick and head kick are two completely different things as the old saying goes "hit em low to bring their head down then kick em in the face".


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## Ray (Apr 23, 2008)

One does not preclude the other.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Apr 23, 2008)

First, let me quote a post I made on this subject a year ago.  I'm trying to make a point in a humorous manner then I'll explain to make sure no one misunderstands my point.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> *CIRCUMSTANCES THAT ALLOW FOR KICKING HIGH TO THE HEAD
> 
> *It's really quite obvious that if you offset a man's balance, cause him to double over, or drop him to the ground makes it easy to deliver a powerful finishing kick to the head. But then again it's not really a high kick then is it?? And we all know if it's not a high kick to the head it just doesn't look as cool so I will outline some circumstances that will allow you to deliver that ultimate kick to the head finish!!
> 
> ...


 
It is my observation that often those that are the more skilled at delivering high kicks tend to place too much confidence in their abilities to deliver and won't recognize the inherent dangers and risks involved.

Any and all techniques (strikes, locks, throws, & kicks) require an appropriate set up to retain the element of surprise needed.  No one is going to stand there and let you hit them - you must catch them off guard!  It is easier to cloak your movements and avoid telegraphing low kicks and hand techniques than high kicks.  Kicking techniques also require a greater range than hand techniqes.  Also recovery time for high kicks is greater and thus leaves you more vunerable to a counter attack.

All this said.  I would use a high kick in self defense under the right circumstances... I'd have to be convinced it was fool proof.

_Don Flatt


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 23, 2008)

Proper kicking should be even lower than the bladder. Any pulling of your muscles is outside of your most effective kick use.
Sean


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 23, 2008)

MJS said:


> Many times, when the subject of kicks comes up in other areas of this forum, we have a mixed bag, with some saying they either prefer one over the other, and others saying they do both.
> 
> This is a question for the Kenpo folks out here. What do you prefer and why? For myself, I have thrown head high kicks in sparring. Of course, some have landed with success and others have been countered. As far as self defense goes, I prefer low line kicks. Chest height and lower. IMO, there are pleanty of good targets at that level, so why risk anything higher?
> 
> Thoughts?


 
Because they both work "if" you know proper concepts, basics, tactics and targeting.

Two reasons most people don't kick to head.

1. They can't

2. They don't know the tactics of workable head kicks

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## terryl965 (Apr 23, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Because they both work "if" you know proper concepts, basics, tactics and targeting.
> 
> Two reasons most people don't kick to head.
> 
> ...


 
I guess I am on the other side of the spectum here, keep the kick below the waist for SD principle. For flash go as high as you can.


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 23, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Proper kicking should be even lower than the bladder. Any pulling of your muscles is outside of your most effective kick use.
> Sean


 
I'm not sure what you mean by "proper"?

It seems to me that you are stating something that works for you as the rules of kicking for everyone else.

And even though I love a bladder kick, I do love the brain stem kicks also. They all fall down when hit at a 90 degree angle.

I did write a short article on this. I'll see if I can find it.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 23, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I guess I am on the other side of the spectum here, keep the kick below the waist for SD principle. For flash go as high as you can.


 
My definition of "flash" is a high kick that don't work. 

I don't know what your meaning is, so I'll go with mine until given yours.

That means it's at an incorrect angle to hit the target with "direct penetration".

If you use Zero Perception technologies then, even with head kicks, they cannot see the foot incoming.

I stick by my previous 2 reasons why most people do not kick to the head.

I suggest that if anyone wants to learn effective head kicks that they train with someone that can do effective head kicks.

I suggest tha if someone wants to learn effective head kicks that they DO NOT train with someone that disses them.

That type of flexibility in targeting the head, body and all limbs will only give the kicker more bullets for his vast arsenal.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 23, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> For self defense?
> never kick higher than than bladder.


 
Never?

How about if they are on the ground?

How about if they are 5 feet tall and you are 6 feet tall?

The rules of proper targeting the brain stem applies whether they are on the ground or on their feet.

For either a tall person or a short person, the same rules apply for economy of motion, proper weapon usuage, proper target penetration, proper Zero Perception, etc.

I loved the reply about "hitting the target that is open".

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Whose Thesis to Ed Parker (1980) was on "Master's Kicking Skills". We did have some interesting conversations and "show and tell" demos. It was accepted.


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## MJS (Apr 23, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Because they both work "if" you know proper concepts, basics, tactics and targeting.
> 
> Two reasons most people don't kick to head.
> 
> ...


 
1. True.

2.  One would think this would be self explainatory, but if someone isn't training for this type of kick, then yes, I'm in agreement.


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## MJS (Apr 23, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> My definition of "flash" is a high kick that don't work.


 
My definition of 'flash' is something that is not your typical kick, typical being a front, side, roundhouse.  Flash IMO is the jump, spinning, 360 degree 'fancy' stuff.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Apr 24, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Because they both work "if" you know proper concepts, basics, tactics and targeting.
> 
> Two reasons most people don't kick to head.
> 
> 1. They can't


This is true.  For me, my front kick, round house, and hook kick can reach most people's heads.  I still stand by my earlier opinion.


Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> 2. They don't know the tactics of workable head kicks


Once in a street fight, I knocked the other guy out with three kicks to the head - one to each temple and the last between the eyes.  Of course, I brought him to his knees with a solid punch to the sternum first.

_Don Flatt


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## KenpoDave (Apr 24, 2008)

Mark L said:


> I prefer to kick to open targets
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for that.  I do not "prefer" one over the other.  What I prefer is to be able to hit whatever target presents itself, with the most effective, most efficient weapon available at the moment.

If I ignore high kicks in my training, then I may miss an opportunity.


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## KenpoDave (Apr 24, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> I suggest that if anyone wants to learn effective head kicks that they train with someone that can do effective head kicks.
> 
> I suggest tha if someone wants to learn effective head kicks that they DO NOT train with someone that disses them.
> 
> ...


 
I am in complete agreement.


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## Rabu (Apr 24, 2008)

With the right:

Timing
Position
Posture

Kicking to any target is fine as far as I am concerned.  Dr John has some good points in his posts on '90 degree' and target.

Ability as well as training will determing what types of techniques you throw.  If you cant lift your leg above your waist, then your opponents head would need to come down for a 'head kick'.

Move on time, move on motion.
Position yourself at the 90 degree angle where possible, or create the angle.
Body posture needs to be appropriate for the technique being used.

Thats what I remember from my Kempo days.

Best regards,

Rob


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 24, 2008)

MJS said:


> 1. True.
> 
> 2. One would think this would be self explainatory, but if someone isn't training for this type of kick, then yes, I'm in agreement.


 
Hi Mike,

Nice having you agree with something I say.

Back when I started NLP training one of the rules we learned about people who could do X and people that could not do X had 3 parts to it.

1. They were NOT motivated to do X.

2. They did NOT have any opportunity to do X.

3. They did NOT know how to do X.

It was called the Rambo Drill (for reasons I will not go into now, because it is off topic).

Those 3 statements are totally isomorphic to the learning of any skill, presuppositing that one has the basic equipment to do that skill if taught correctly.

For example, Stephan Hawkins should not take up dancing.

And thats my "experience" with high and low kicks.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 24, 2008)

MJS said:


> My definition of 'flash' is something that is not your typical kick, typical being a front, side, roundhouse. Flash IMO is the jump, spinning, 360 degree 'fancy' stuff.


 
Hi Mike,

My definition that I use I will continue to use.

My thanks to you for giving me your definition. Now I can explain what I mean according to both of our definitions.

Flash to me, fits into the 7th Rule of Kenpo, *"Do NOT do that which is useless".*

And in my life time I've done and taught to many "jump kicks" (I wrote an article for Kick Magazine on this), spinning kicks, and before I hit the age of 50, 360 degree 'fancy' stuff.

Now I will state that many in kenpo karate do NOT do the proper conditioning, flexibility, and leg coordination basics to get proper skills on those technologies so that they are effective when used.

Now, being in my mid sixties I no longer do jumping kicks or 360 'fancy' stuff (but I still do a real good heel hook, and lead leg wheels to the head)...

...but I still teach them to all my clients that have youth on their side. I consider anyone that has no knee/back damage to have youth on their side, and age is a factor but not the huge factor that many assume.

And most of them, with the proper attention to training, can do them effectively against wary opponents.

Of course all kicks as are all hand techniques, totally worthless without the awareness skills, set-ups, and blab, blab, blab.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 24, 2008)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> ...Of course, I brought him to his knees with a solid punch to the sternum first.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 
Now that's cheating, right?

Good sequence.

I love good sequences, and that's why I love good kenpo.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Twin Fist (Apr 24, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Never?
> 
> How about if they are on the ground?
> 
> ...



Dr La Tourrette,
I didnt state what i meant very well. I didnt mean the Bladder itself per se, but rather "the equivalent height of the average person's bladder"

Not because I think the technique is impractical, I know better than than. That depends on the skill of the person doing the kicking. With the right person doing it, high kicks can be fast, and deadly.

For me, it is because I wear jeans most of the time, and kicking much higher than that I stand about a 50/50 chance of the jeans not stretching and pulling my base leg out from under me......well, that and i am now old and fat


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 25, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "proper"?
> 
> It seems to me that you are stating something that works for you as the rules of kicking for everyone else.
> 
> ...


Brain stem kicks are all well and good, but over extending and adjusting you hips to do so, could be considered more trouble than its worth by some. The two things that struck me the most about my time in TKD was seeing all the practitioners nurse there self inflicted injuries and seeing small children taght to spar with there hands at there side. In some circles that is good, in others, its bad. I will agree with you there are proper ways to do high kicks, but the faster more powerfull kicks are lower.
Sean


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 25, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> For me, it is because I wear jeans most of the time, and kicking much higher than that I stand about a 50/50 chance of the jeans not stretching and pulling my base leg out from under me......well, that and i am now old and fat


 
Haha!

I loved your post.

And I now weight in at 205 (and I used to be 245) so I do know about "jeans" and "old and fat".

What is strange, you get rid of most of the fat you also get rid of some of the age.

And I buy baggy jeans, which my wife does hate, because she is a visual and says, "John, those look ugly on you".

I go for comfort and not for "good looking", as any one can tell by looking at my cute photo above.

Happy Trails.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 25, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Brain stem kicks are all well and good, but over extending and adjusting you hips to do so, could be considered more trouble than its worth by some. The two things that struck me the most about my time in TKD was seeing all the practitioners nurse there self inflicted injuries and seeing small children taght to spar with there hands at there side. In some circles that is good, in others, its bad. I will agree with you there are proper ways to do high kicks, but the faster more powerfull kicks are lower.
> Sean


 

Sean,

I am very surprised at your comments. You are judging from what could be negative instead of "what could be good".

And your first reason above is what I do call "an excuse" and NOT a reason.

I RUN MY SCHOOLS AND I TEACH WHAT I DEEM IMPORTANT...

And if a client doesn't want to learn what I DEEM NECESSARY, I get rid of them. And we tell them that upfront when they come in for the mandatory personal private interview.

I do love a student that comes to me and says, "YES SIR", and then we teach him great skills without the whining that seems to be running rampant since the mass marketing of day care karate, and huggy feely philosophies of martial arts training.

At my schools we DO NOT allow children!

We train only those that qualify. A minimum age is necessary. Normally around 12-14, depending on their persistence.

And, I am an authority on kicking, so even though you disagree with me (which is 100% okay with me), I will still do and teach all types of kicking skills that many in kenpo do not teach.

I'm of the opinion that they do not kick BECAUSE Mr. Parker did very little kicking, especially after the age of 30.

But historically, his instructor DID AWESOME KICKS!

The reason I am replying to Mike's post was because I figured the intelligent reader needs more imput than simple generalities of "yes" and "no".

For example, for my short reply to your slow vs fast concept above, IF THE TACTIC of Zero Perception is used (as it should ALWAYS be used) the uke CANNOT see the incoming weapon regardless if it is a head kick, a scrotum rake, a knee break, a knife, or 5 Swords of Kenpo.

Speed is NOT the factor BUT "awareness" and "lack of awareness" is the primary factor.

Thank you for your reply Sean.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## MJS (Apr 25, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Nice having you agree with something I say.
> 
> ...


 


Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> My definition that I use I will continue to use.
> 
> ...


 
Well sir, I'm sure you will be surprised, but I agree with you again.   Its always nice to have discussions like this, where things are civil and I will say that this has been a good learning experience for me regarding the kicks.  Thank you for your replies.

Mike


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## KenJoe (Apr 25, 2008)

All in all it boils down to what works. We all have different blocks...In, Out, Up, Down, Parry, ect... bu with blacksit can be said that if your not getting hit, it is probably and effective block.

Same with kicking, it is good to have to option to do it all, through high or low kicks. Sometimes the size of your opponet compared to you is what is going to make the difference. I'm 5' 8" and if I fight some one 6' 4" my bladder kick is goign to have to go a little higher than the normal.

I love leg kicks though, hit that hamstring enough and itlocks up, just watch Cro-Cop in Japan when he fought that judo master...kicked him enough that he had to tap out due to not being able to move his leg. Slow him down, cut him down, then hit whatever targets you can reach.

Plus the higher you kick the less power you have and the more you have to do to get power, jump, spin around, shoot arms out with feet, kick lower, easier to get power.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 26, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Sean,
> 
> I am very surprised at your comments. You are judging from what could be negative instead of "what could be good".
> 
> ...


An excuse for a common lack of conditioning maybe; however, the worth of conditioning your self for less safe actions is what I question. I too can slip a head shot without my opponent seeing it, but, I place my self in a more awkward position for my own defense. You must admit that were you to miss or glance a head shot, your recovery time and re-hip adjustment to normal is longer than a low kick being that you are already adjusted. I don't recall challanging your curriculum nor would I question the validity of your program. In fact, I think high kicks are a must, given that that is what newbies expect to be taught, but there is a point, I think, when you should un-learn them. LOL
Sean


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 26, 2008)

KenJoe said:


> ...Plus the higher you kick the less power you have and the more you have to do to get power, jump, spin around, shoot arms out with feet, kick lower, easier to get power.


 
The question Mike posed for this topic was "high or low kicks", which is a choice between one or the other.

And, just about all that have replied have replied with "both", and then have given "situations" where each can be used.

Some have also given their PREFERENCES, and NOT their POSSIBILITIES.

And I also have preferences.

But I've also seen faulty logic where a rationalization is considered a "truth".

For example,the above part I did cut and paste and I'm going to reply to now.

I still remember first meeting Ed Parker (around '75) and he was commenting about "power vs effectiveness".  And he did his comments with a question, i.e., *"Do you need a cannon to kill a sparrow?" *

Another one of his questions was, *"If you kill a man with a 3 inch knife or with a 12 foot spear, which weapon is he deader from?"*

*They are actually "stupid" redundant questions, but the purpose was NOT to be smart but to cause the listeners do some thinking and some comparisons on their own.*

Okay.

I know that some types like to keep things simple. The love the KISS principle. They love doing step one, step two, step three...

...and those types do well in the military and standing behind the counter in the post office...

...but others HATE that type of bordom learning/ training and doing.

So we have personality profiles and which work best for them.

There's me for example.

I've got to be doing something different every day. Now the master keys never change, but the ways you apply they can and do easily change, depending upon the mentality and the physical skill level of the one doing the technology.

On my own part, before I learned how to do flying kicks, I "thought" they were worthless. I was my own fears and apprehensions speaking, and NOT the actually effectiveness of a skill that I did not know how to do.

Let me give one simple example.

A Korean 4th dan (in 1966) broke my nose with a flying spinning back kick.

It scared the crap out of me. NOT because it hurt, but because I did not see it. His foot just exploded though my face. And I was at that time a black belt in Okazaki Jujitsu, Kano Judo, and Kuk Mu Kwan Taekwon-do.

I never knew what happened. I really didn't think it could happen to me. I was too good for anything that easily seen to get hit by it, but I did get hit and HARD.

Pain is a good motivator for me. Frustration is a good motivator for me. And anger (at myself in the above case) is a VERY good motivator for me.

So I did learn how to "see" it.

Then I learned how to "stop" it.

Then I learned how to "do" it.

Then I learned "when" to do it.

Then I learned the proper "set ups" to make it invisible so the uke couldn't see it.

Then a flying kick became fun.

I also learned "what else" to do when I could NOT use that tool because of various reasons.

Their awareness.

My own awkwardness because of a healing back injury.

Blab, blab, blab.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Sukerkin (Apr 26, 2008)

My thanks for your experiences on this, John :rei:.

Having been 'nailed' by a spinning hook kick that came on the heels (yeah, anatomy pun attack !) of a flying spinning hook kick and a jumping back kick, I support the view that, in sparring at least, these seemingly outlandish methods of attack can work.

In the far messier environment which is unexpected violence 'in the streets' (lord, how I hate that term), I remain somewhat unconvinced.  But as you say, that may well be me projecting my fears and lack of ability onto the 'screen'.


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## MJS (Apr 28, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> An excuse for a common lack of conditioning maybe; however, the worth of conditioning your self for less safe actions is what I question. I too can slip a head shot without my opponent seeing it, but, I place my self in a more awkward position for my own defense. You must admit that were you to miss or glance a head shot, your recovery time and re-hip adjustment to normal is longer than a low kick being that you are already adjusted. I don't recall challanging your curriculum nor would I question the validity of your program. In fact, I think high kicks are a must, given that that is what newbies expect to be taught, but there is a point, I think, when you should un-learn them. LOL
> Sean


 
Well, I think this post brings up some very good points, as well as some concerns that I'm sure some have.  I'm sure we've all seen high kicks work in the ring.  I've seen fighters throw low kicks to the leg repeatedly and then bam!!!  one goes to the head for the KO.  If we look back to the recent Fight Quest Kajukenbo espisode, we saw someone get dropped with a head kick.  

I think that if you were to train with someone who was good at them, they could probably teach you how to throw them with success.  Then again, everyone is built different.  If teacher A is able to teach students 1,2,3,and 4 how to throw them, but 5,6,7 are having problems, that may be something out of their control.  Is it possible to make them be able to throw them?  Who knows. 

In the end, I suppose it will come down to each person and the situation.  Like I said, I've thrown them, some have landed, some have not.  In the safety of the dojo, mistakes can be made and the consequences are not that severe.  Question is...do you want to throw them when that mistake can really cost you?  Some may, some may not.


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 28, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> My thanks for your experiences on this, John :rei:.
> 
> Having been 'nailed' by a spinning hook kick that came on the heels (yeah, anatomy pun attack !) of a flying spinning hook kick and a jumping back kick, I support the view that, in sparring at least, these seemingly outlandish methods of attack can work.
> 
> In the far messier environment which is unexpected violence 'in the streets' (lord, how I hate that term), I remain somewhat unconvinced. But as you say, that may well be me projecting my fears and lack of ability onto the 'screen'.


 
You are welcome.

I have used high kicks on the street during a more immature time of my life (between the ages of 16-45). 

They work just fine.

I have used a flying kick once on the street. He ducked. I missed. so I stopped doing them on the street.

I still teach them in the dojo.

Fun is still fun.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Apr 28, 2008)

MJS said:


> In the end, I suppose it will come down to each person and the situation. Like I said, I've thrown them, some have landed, some have not. In the safety of the dojo, mistakes can be made and the consequences are not that severe. Question is...do you want to throw them when that mistake can really cost you? Some may, some may not.


 
Hunnnn?

If you cross over a plank that is 100 feet above ground and your dominant thought is, "I hope I don't fall", you WILL FALL.

So I do frame the thoughts of my clients differently, in a manner that gives them approximately 60% BETTER PERFORMANCE with the same skills.

"I see the other side. I have good balance. I am crossing over safely!"

If you practice them for REAL.

And you know for REAL that they do work for you...

Then if you calibrate THEM correctly you will choose where they are vulnerable and open and unaware.

What good flexible targeting with the feet give you is MORE OPTIONS and NEVER less options.

Just because one can foot break a skull doesn't mean only kick to the head. The other targets are still there.

I really try not to do or teach, "fear based" thinking, but "BEST TARGET THINKING".

Is the glass 1/2 full? Is the glass 1/2 empty?

It's back to the famous Scott Hamilton Theory of peak performance. Depending on negative thoughts vs positive skill orientated thoughts, you PERFORMANCE can be more than 60% better, instantly.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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