# Clear distinctions between MMA and RBSD.



## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Let's keep this simple.

If it involves footwork, arm drags, joint manipulation, guard, clinch, parrying, chokes, striking, etc:

--it’s MMA and can be "pressure-tested."

If it involves attacks with the intent to cause life-threatening physical trauma, caved-in skulls, cavitation, puncture wounds, lacerations, more than one person attacking you, pre-emption, ambushing, etc:

--it's RBSD

--has to be taught, and can be drilled quite realistically

--cannot perfectly recreate conditions, unless you want to repeatedly kill and send people to the ER, which I hope we can all agree is not an acceptable way to train.

--evolves through recorded instances of violence and trauma, via footage, hospital, law enforcement, and military records. You know it's legit when you see commonalities between those records. As Nigel February has said "If you can't show me footage of it, I don't want to heart it."


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

So this is your definition?

Or do you feel it is a standard definition.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

Jocko is always a fun example

So this is pressure testing as in a MMA definition.

But if Jocko had wanted to kill him. He could have.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So this is your definition?
> 
> Or do you feel it is a standard definition.
> 
> ...



Im not sure what point you’re trying to make. The distinguishing word here is “intent.” “Opportunity” and “means” also apply.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Jocko is always a fun example
> 
> So this is pressure testing as in a MMA definition.
> 
> But if Jocko had wanted to kill him. He could have.


I’ve been fairly specific in what I wrote.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Im not sure what point you’re trying to make. The distinguishing word here is “intent.” “Opportunity” and “means” also apply.



Ok. So is jocko practicing a sport you can pressure test. Or a deadly RSBD concept you can't.

Or are they the same thing in this instance.

And if they are the same thing. Does that make sport RSBD.

Which then means RSBD can be tested.

And that test is sport.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok. So is jocko practicing a sport you can pressure test. Or a deadly RSBD concept you can't.
> 
> Or are they the same thing in this instance.
> 
> ...


Again—I’ve been quite clear about this in my original post, where MMA mechanics apply, and where they don’t apply.

Are you confused, or just being an argumentative troll that happens to say correct things?


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 17, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Let's keep this simple.
> 
> If it involves footwork, arm drags, joint manipulation, guard, clinch, parrying, chokes, striking, etc:
> 
> ...




I also teach Self Defense; and if unarmed, then MMA with no rules is the best for SD.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Again—I’ve been quite clear about this in my original post, where MMA mechanics apply, and where they don’t apply.
> 
> Are you confused, or just being an argumentative troll that happens to say correct things?


I think you may be misunderstanding drop bear's position. He's an MMA guy (his favorite response is "Do MMA." And with some solid reason behind that.

He's also someone who has been in situations (as a bouncer and maybe also personal protection, if I remember correctly) that RBSD folks claim to train for.

I think he's pointing out that RBSD and MMA need not have a line between them. Sport context can be used to test skills that apply in a SD context. They needn't be in the exct scenario, and needn't even be the exact finish, so long as they make it obvious that finish was also available.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 18, 2022)

I'm not quite sure if I'm on track with what the spirit of the thread is here, but let me try.

I think RBSD is a very large umbrella, with a lot of things that fall potentially underneath that umbrella. Including a lot of sport martial arts that can be pressure tested. Certainly aspects of sport martial arts is a piece of the 🧩 puzzle that fits into RBSD.

A lot of other 🧩 pieces go into creating a well rounded skill set for RBSD, including security training, fist aid training, perhaps firearms training and the list goes on.

It takes a lot more puzzle 🧩 pieces for RBSD than it does for training in something like MMA. 

With that said, dose everyone needs to spar or compete in sport based martial arts to practice RBSD. No. Because self-defense is for everyone. Not everyone is going to "roll" but everyone should take some responsibility for their own protection.

With that said, to be well rounded and effective when RBSD becomes physical, having pressure tested even some of your skills is ideal. Why? Because all fighting is problem solving. You can not solve every problem you will encounter in a dynamic live attack, but you can learn to solve many of them though combat sports.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 18, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think you may be misunderstanding drop bear's position. He's an MMA guy (his favorite response is "Do MMA." And with some solid reason behind that.
> 
> He's also someone who has been in situations (as a bouncer and maybe also personal protection, if I remember correctly) that RBSD folks claim to train for.
> 
> I think he's pointing out that RBSD and MMA need not have a line between them. Sport context can be used to test skills that apply in a SD context. They needn't be in the exct scenario, and needn't even be the exact finish, so long as they make it obvious that finish was also available.


Given his adherence to arguing for the sake of arguing, to the point it might as well be trolling, it's hard to tell that he has a point.

There is a line between them--much of the skill and stress innoculation you need for RBSD comes from MMA, but that is not enough to prepare you for the full spectrum of possible violence. There are all these little techniques, modifications of MMA, and tactics that occur in real situations-- but you won't learn any of them, unless you put yourself at great risk in fights, or you study under someone who already has that knowledge.

You can teach yourself to shoot a gun competently without much professional help, and you can easily test it. Yet, to learn about gunfighting, you have to train under someone who has had to kill people with guns, and seen the various ways things can go wrong.


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## drop bear (Sep 18, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Given his adherence to arguing for the sake of arguing, to the point it might as well be trolling, it's hard to tell that he has a point.
> 
> There is a line between them--much of the skill and stress innoculation you need for RBSD comes from MMA, but that is not enough to prepare you for the full spectrum of possible violence. There are all these little techniques, modifications of MMA, and tactics that occur in real situations-- but you won't learn any of them, unless you put yourself at great risk in fights, or you study under someone who already has that knowledge.
> 
> You can teach yourself to shoot a gun competently without much professional help, and you can easily test it. Yet, to learn about gunfighting, you have to train under someone who has had to kill people with guns, and seen the various ways things can go wrong.



That isn't how fighting actually works. 

It is more along the lines of this.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 18, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That isn't how fighting actually works.
> 
> It is more along the lines of this.


Nigel February once said "my skill with knives will always be average, compared to the killers out in the street."

SEALs ran into problems during the beginning of the war in Iraq, because much of their training was based experiences in Vietnam, which were not applicable to the style of urban guerilla warfare they faced. Of course, this isn't the greatest reference, as the manner in which people fight in the street doesn't change the same way--but the point still stands.

If you think that the training makes you as skilled and expert, as the people that do it everyday as a lifestyle, then it goes without saying that you are a fool.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Nigel February once said "my skill with knives will always be average, compared to the killers out in the street."
> 
> SEALs ran into problems during the beginning of the war in Iraq, because much of their training was based experiences in Vietnam, which were not applicable to the style of urban guerilla warfare they faced. Of course, this isn't the greatest reference, as the manner in which people fight in the street doesn't change the same way--but the point still stands.
> 
> If you think that the training makes you as skilled and expert, as the people that do it everyday as a lifestyle, then it goes without saying that you are a fool.



Who does it every day as a lifestyle?


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Who does it every day as a lifestyle?


You asking that question means, you either  haven’t been paying attention for the amount of time you’ve been here, or you just have nothing better to do than argue with me.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> You asking that question means, you either  haven’t been paying attention for the amount of time you’ve been here, or you just have nothing better to do than argue with me.



No it doesn't. 

Answer the question and you will find out where I am going with this.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> Answer the question and you will find out where I am going with this.


If I had to guess, you’re going to make the point, that most people teaching RBSD or claiming to are disconnected from that “lifestyle.” And I wouldn’t disagree  with you.

It’s the same story with traditional martial arts. Do your research, know their lineage and backgrounds. Don’t just assume they’re teaching the right stuff.

We’ve been over this, more than once.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 19, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> You asking that question means, you either  haven’t been paying attention for the amount of time you’ve been here, or you just have nothing better to do than argue with me.


Your post seems more argumentative than about making a point.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 19, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Your post seems more argumentative than about making a point.


I don’t have patience for dropbear’s usual approach, which shouldnt surprise you given previous conversations.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> If I had to guess, you’re going to make the point, that most people teaching RBSD or claiming to are disconnected from that “lifestyle.” And I wouldn’t disagree  with you.
> 
> It’s the same story with traditional martial arts. Do your research, know their lineage and backgrounds. Don’t just assume they’re teaching the right stuff.
> 
> We’ve been over this, more than once.



People in that lifestyle train all sorts of martial arts.

So if I train the same martial arts as them. Then I have the same background.

So believing I have the same tools as some and better tools than others to defend myself. Is a very reasonable conclusion.

And not at all foolish.

And there are real world examples.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> People in that lifestyle train all sorts of martial arts.
> 
> So if I train the same martial arts as them. Then I have the same background.
> 
> ...


By lifestyle—that also includes gangsters and insurgents. I don’t think they are all getting formal martial arts training.

I think it is well established that JJ is especially useful for police, given their procedures.

Martial arts background, and lessons learned from applying them in given situations are not the same thing.

You don’t learn about firearm retention from a grappler. You learn it from a grappler, that survived a near-death experience fighting for control over his weapon.

If practitioner A and practitioner B have the same martial arts training, but B has had to club, stab, and shoot people while applying that training— B now has a different background from A, and there are things B has now learned about fighting that only he has the knowledge to teach A. A has no concept of these evolutions in martial arts application, because everyone else he trains with only has MMA knowledge.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> By lifestyle—that also includes gangsters and insurgents. I don’t think they are all getting formal martial arts training.
> 
> I think it is well established that JJ is especially useful for police, given their procedures.
> 
> ...


 
There are dense some that have formal training.








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## Steve (Sep 19, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I don’t have patience for dropbear’s usual approach, which shouldnt surprise you given previous conversations.


He appreciates the Socratic method.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2022)

Steve said:


> He appreciates the Socratic method.


Which was wrestling.

" I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler" - Socrates


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> There are dense some that have formal training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think there might be some autocorrect interference here.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> There are dense some that have formal training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the Los Zetas cartel was trained by US SOF. 

Doesn’t change the point.


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Which was wrestling.
> 
> " I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler" - Socrates


Just a great quote.


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## drop bear (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think there might be some autocorrect interference here.


Should have been definitely. Which is a pretty big correction.


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## drop bear (Sep 20, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> And the Los Zetas cartel was trained by US SOF.
> 
> Doesn’t change the point.



Completely changes the point doesn't it?

I put it to you there are as many real world operators/police/gangsters  doing combat sports as there are doing RBSD.

So to argue the depth of knowledge isn't there. Is kind of not really true.

And MMA training is just a fundamentally more efficient way to learn fighting. In that you basically fight people through as many ranges with as little rules as you can get away with.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Completely changes the point doesn't it?
> 
> I put it to you there are as many real world operators/police/gangsters  doing combat sports as there are doing RBSD.
> 
> ...


Gangsters and insurgents aren’t doing RBSD, in the way you’re talking about it. They either figure it out instinctively maybe with some help of seasoned “colleagues”, or die. Soldiers and police DO have RBSD training the way we’re talking about it, along with proper MMA, and otherwise learn from near-death experiences in the same way. It is people who come back from those field experiences that advance RBSD, with knowledge they wouldn’t otherwise get in a dojo/gym. Evolution occurs when MMA expertise on the matt, meets real-world violence.
That RBSD is inherently superior to MMA has never been my argument.

In every single thread that we’ve had this discussion, my thesis has always been the same—you get your fundamentals from MMA training, you get the “software upgrades” and street/combat tweaks to those skills doing legit RBSD. One does not replace the other.


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## drop bear (Sep 20, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Gangsters and insurgents aren’t doing RBSD, in the way you’re talking about it. They either figure it out instinctively maybe with some help of seasoned “colleagues”, or die. Soldiers and police DO have RBSD training the way we’re talking about it, along with proper MMA, and otherwise learn from near-death experiences in the same way. It is people who come back from those field experiences that advance RBSD, with knowledge they wouldn’t otherwise get in a dojo/gym. Evolution occurs when MMA expertise on the matt, meets real-world violence.
> That RBSD is inherently superior to MMA has never been my argument.
> 
> In every single thread that we’ve had this discussion, my thesis has always been the same—you get your fundamentals from MMA training, you get the “software upgrades” and street/combat tweaks to those skills doing legit RBSD. One does not replace the other.



But you would get them in a gym. Because real world guys train in those gyms.

All this real world knowledge from soldiers and gangsters and so on
 You can get from places soldiers and gangsters train.

And they train in combat sports gyms.

So this difference you are saying. Isn't really a difference.

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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But you would get them in a gym. Because real world guys train in those gyms.
> 
> All this real world knowledge from soldiers and gangsters and so on
> You can get from places soldiers and gangsters train.
> ...


If you’re training with someone that has that experience, then yes, that is an avenue to absorb that knowledge—but that’s not an MMA gym’s purpose, nor the norm for MMA gyms. 

It’s not like they have formal classes, where they focus on things like weapons retention and dealing with knives, and discuss things that you do in MMA that would get you killed in that situation. One thing commonly taught, is to create and wait for opportunities, not to force them. Sometimes you’re just gonna have to eat an elbow and a fist, to keep control of a gun.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Completely changes the point doesn't it?
> 
> I put it to you there are as many real world operators/police/gangsters  doing combat sports as there are doing RBSD.
> 
> ...


I thought the argument was more that training doesn't offset the daily experience of those actually doing (in the original quote, it seemed to be referring to basically ruffians who fight daily). Did I misread it?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> If you’re training with someone that has that experience, then yes, that is an avenue to absorb that knowledge—but that’s not an MMA gym’s purpose, nor the norm for MMA gyms.
> 
> It’s not like they have formal classes, where they focus on things like weapons retention and dealing with knives, and discuss things that you do in MMA that would get you killed in that situation. One thing commonly taught, is to create and wait for opportunities, not to force them. Sometimes you’re just gonna have to eat an elbow and a fist, to keep control of a gun.


I'd argue some of what is taught in classes purporting to deal with weapons is worse than just training good fight mechanics for the same amount of time.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Your post seems more argumentative than about making a point.


in what way?


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I thought the argument was more that training doesn't offset the daily experience of those actually doing (in the original quote, it seemed to be referring to basically ruffians who fight daily). Did I misread it?


My OP categorized things on what’s trained.

MMA trains certain things, and RBSD trains certain things.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'd argue some of what is taught in classes purporting to deal with weapons is worse than just training good fight mechanics for the same amount of time.


Well, what I’m referring to, is that MMA classes train mechanics—but in the context of the sport element, per that art.

You can apply those same mechanics to dealing with weapons, but it’s not something you’ll do instinctively necessarily, since you’ve been trained in a sports context. You have to think through and be shown how the skills you’re learned, apply to that context.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Well, what I’m referring to, is that MMA classes train mechanics—but in the context of the sport element, per that art.
> 
> You can apply those same mechanics to dealing with weapons, but it’s not something you’ll do instinctively necessarily, since you’ve been trained in a sports context. You have to think through and be shown how the skills you’re learned, apply to that context.


I'd still argue that solid fundamentals that were never trained in that context will be more functional in a given context, than flawed fundamentals trained for that specific context.

Of course, solid fundamentals trained for the specific context are probably more functional.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'd still argue that solid fundamentals that were never trained in that context will be more functional in a given context, than flawed fundamentals trained for that specific context.
> 
> Of course, solid fundamentals trained for the specific context are probably more functional.


Fundamentally, you should be training more or less the same fundamentals. It’s just a question of what you focus on. It’s like giving students a textbook to read, and then you cover in class which parts of the textbook are important for the purposes of the class.

And then you have a more advanced textbook, that mentions things the previous one doesn’t, but it won’t make sense to you unless you’ve already read the previous one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Fundamentally, you should be training more or less the same fundamentals. It’s just a question of what you focus on. It’s like giving students a textbook to read, and then you cover in class which parts of the textbook are important for the purposes of the class.
> 
> And then you have a more advanced textbook, that mentions things the previous one doesn’t, but it won’t make sense to you unless you’ve already read the previous one.


Agreed - you _should_ be. What I've seen in some places is that they are missing fundamentals, but working on more advanced material.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Agreed - you _should_ be. What I've seen in some places is that they are missing fundamentals, but working on more advanced material.


In my experience, RBSD places tend to cover fundamentals—but because of the way the curriculum is structured, you never actually achieve competence with any of them. For that, you have to cross-train.

I’ve been fortunate enough to train places that had RBSD guys and MMA guys under the same roof, which made that very straightforward.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> In my experience, RBSD places tend to cover fundamentals—but because of the way the curriculum is structured, you never actually achieve competence with any of them. For that, you have to cross-train.
> 
> I’ve been fortunate enough to train places that had RBSD guys and MMA guys under the same roof, which made that very straightforward.


That's a good combination. The MMA influence likely helps keep the RBSD curriculum honest.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That's a good combination. The MMA influence likely helps keep the RBSD curriculum honest.


Actually, it was the other way around—without the MMA, we could forget how to fight during scenario based training, and get our asses kicked during the adrenaline dump.

The RBSD was perfectly honest, it was just an issue of retaining the knowledge.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Actually, it was the other way around—without the MMA, we could forget how to fight during scenario based training, and get our asses kicked during the adrenaline dump.
> 
> The RBSD was perfectly honest, it was just an issue of retaining the knowledge.


I was using that term idiomatically. The MMA influence keeps the RBSD from drifting away from basic fundamentals.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I was using that term idiomatically. The MMA influence keeps the RBSD from drifting away from basic fundamentals.


But that was not my experience.

I don’t agree that this is the way things are necessarily, if you have proper instruction and curriculum.

But I can understand if this website’s members are traumatized by so much shitty RBSD😂


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 21, 2022)

I think what pressure testing sports type martial arts gives to the RBSD community is a rock solid plan B. 

In other words, if that groin grab doesn't work, I know my double leg takedown will. Or if that eye gouge fails to disable him, then my elbow to the jaw will. 

Competitive sparring and rolling makes you tough, hard to take down, hard to hit, and harder to damage. 

Having a competitive background not only gives you a plan B, it also helps give you a solid BS detector when evaluating the utility and effectiveness of RBSD techniques.

I think they compliment each other well.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I think what pressure testing sports type martial arts gives to the RBSD community is a rock solid plan B.
> 
> In other words, if that groin grab doesn't work, I know my double leg takedown will. Or if that eye gouge fails to disable him, then my elbow to the jaw will.
> 
> ...


The people who already know how to fight and “stack bodies” aren’t in need of MMA.

I’ve had the privilege of knowing older men that don’t train, but would easily wipe the floor with you from years of experience, instinct, and poor choices they survived.

It’s the students who need an MMA foundation, to better absorb what’s being taught from a legit RBSD instructor, like such older dudes.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The people who already know how to fight and “stack bodies” aren’t in need of MMA.
> 
> I’ve had the privilege of knowing older men that don’t train, but would easily wipe the floor with you from years of experience, instinct, and poor choices they survived.
> 
> It’s the students who need an MMA foundation, to better absorb what’s being taught from a legit RBSD instructor, like such older dudes.


Well. I once disarmed a guy who was trying to shoot me with a Glock 19. What saved me wasn't the handgun disarms I learned and even use to teach. What saved me was a wrestling go behind, and take down, jujitsu back control and an obscure judo arm lever. I have no doubt without my competitive grappling background that I would have been shot. Because what was needed was dominance, positioning and problem solving.

I don't know how someone can already learn how to fight, without training? So I think I'm missing the point you are making?


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Well. I once disarmed a guy who was trying to shoot me with a Glock 19. What saved me wasn't the handgun disarms I learned and even use to teach. What saved me was a wrestling go behind, and take down, jujitsu back control and an obscure judo arm lever. I have no doubt without my competitive grappling background that I would have been shot. Because what was needed was dominance, positioning and problem solving.
> 
> I don't know how someone can already learn how to fight, without training? So I think I'm missing the point you are making?



It comes back to the idea that some people are insisting on, that everything you need to know can be taught in a sport setting, and that it’s all the same. A LOT of what you need to know is usually taught best in a sport setting (body mechanics and range overall)—but there are still critical lessons that are only tested/learned in the field, that have to be taught and cannot be safely replicated with full pressure testing.

A lot of people died in Iraq, for law enforcement and military to learn about the variety of ways things can go wrong clearing buildings.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> It comes back to the idea that some people are insisting on, that everything you need to know can be taught in a sport setting, and that it’s all the same. A LOT of what you need to know is usually taught best in a sport setting (body mechanics and range overall)—but there are still critical lessons that are only tested/learned in the field, that have to be taught and cannot be safely replicated with full pressure testing.
> 
> A lot of people died in Iraq, for law enforcement and military to learn about the variety of ways things can go wrong clearing buildings.


I completely agree. Although I think in some areas law enforcement is way ahead on learning CQB lesson that work outside of a military context. But your point remains something I agree with.

With that said, regarding my gun disarm situation, I had to do this in the pitch dark, because my flashlight rolled off the porch and it was about 3am. Also as I was cuffing him, with the gun laying a few feet from me, his girlfriend opened the door and became another layer to the problem. So I agree reality is far more complex and there is a real need for specific training for that purpose.

In fact after the event I thought hard for about a month, trying to figure out how I screwed up and ended up wrestling for a gun.

And I figured it out! It is unlikely I will ever make those mistakes again. In fact what I taught to police cadets is what I learned about how not to be in that situation, not so much how I disarmed him.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The people who already know how to fight and “stack bodies” aren’t in need of MMA.



I have to push back a little on this. There are many paths to victory. Most of the extremely dangerous guys I know learned how to not "stack bodies" and not get in physical fights. In my business if you get in too many physical struggles and too many gunfights, the experienced guys(the ones who deeply understand survival) start seriously questioning your judgement, your ability to learn from your experience and you tactics. 

"Stacking bodies" is not a sign of proficiency as it pertains to RBSD. And if someone has a high body count as a military door kicker, great. But that does little to qualify someone to effectively teach RBSD. It just means they kicked some doors.

If you are unarmed, and at bad breath distance and are in a fight for your life, a significant factor is going to be who has better MMA type/sport martial arts type skills. People who stack bodies are vulnerable the same as everyone else. 

If you are good, you avoid ever being in an unarmed, bad breath distance fight. If you are good, you master never being in a situation where you fight from a position of disadvantage. That's how you survive multiple encounters. 

But if you want to learn to fight from an extreme position of disadvantage when you are unarmed, the number one skill to posses is MMA type skills. I don't care if you are SWAT, SEAL, Ranger, SAS, or batman, this remains true.

If you are someone who "stacks a lot of bodies" and you have a super ton experience with physical confrontation, you are doing it wrong.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I have to push back a little on this. There are many paths to victory. Most of the extremely dangerous guys I know learned how to not "stack bodies" and not get in physical fights. In my business if you get in too many physical struggles and too many gunfights, the experienced guys(the ones who deeply understand survival) start seriously questioning your judgement, your ability to learn from your experience and you tactics.
> 
> "Stacking bodies" is not a sign of proficiency as it pertains to RBSD. And if someone has a high body count as a military door kicker, great. But that does little to qualify someone to effectively teach RBSD. It just means they kicked some doors.
> 
> ...


That is a fair criticism, in terms of language, and pretty much everything you say is correct.

“Stacking bodies” was more my way of saying, that the individual is experienced in both conventional and unconventional ways of applying violence, and think about a situation in way that an experienced MMA fighter could not.


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## drop bear (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> It comes back to the idea that some people are insisting on, that everything you need to know can be taught in a sport setting, and that it’s all the same. A LOT of what you need to know is usually taught best in a sport setting (body mechanics and range overall)—but there are still critical lessons that are only tested/learned in the field, that have to be taught and cannot be safely replicated with full pressure testing.
> 
> A lot of people died in Iraq, for law enforcement and military to learn about the variety of ways things can go wrong clearing buildings.



An why couldn't they have tested that with water pistols or something instead?


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> An why couldn't they have tested that with water pistols or something instead?


Because nobody anticipated how creatively ruthless and violent the insurgency would be. People who were there have said, that Fallujah was the single most insane battle of their career.

The entire place was a death trap of hidden machine gun nests, IEDs, suicide bombers, rigged cars, guerilla snipers, and dudes with AKs hiding under couches.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Because nobody anticipated how creatively ruthless and violent the insurgency would be. People who were there have said, that Fallujah was the single most insane battle of their career.
> 
> The entire place was a death trap of hidden machine gun nests, IEDs, suicide bombers, rigged cars, guerilla snipers, and dudes with AKs hiding under couches.


I think some lessons translate, but many things don't. I know guys who were there. You can't as a civilian throw handfuls of grenades before entering rooms. Then when you take fire, you can't back out and have a tank level the place.

Collateral damage, rules of engagement, technology, armor, cover fire, team work, it all creates skills specific to that form of combat.

I'm not saying they didn't learn a lot, but much of it isn't relevant to RBSD.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I think some lessons translate, but many things don't. I know guys who were there. You can't as a civilian throw handfuls of grenades before entering rooms. Then when you take fire, you can't back out and have a tank level the place.
> 
> Collateral damage, rules of engagement, technology, armor, cover fire, team work, it all creates skills specific to that form of combat.
> 
> I'm not saying they didn't learn a lot, but much of it isn't relevant to RBSD.


I’ve been confused as to the definition of “RBSD,” but now I think I get it. I thought RBSD referred to just real-world violence in general.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I’ve been confused as to the definition of “RBSD,” but now I think I get it. I thought RBSD referred to just real-world violence in general.


That might explain some of the confusion. Reality-based self-defense (RBSD) is a marketing term for training that is oriented away from sport, and supposedly focused at how violence actually happens in the street (and how best to respond to it). Some of it may in fact be actually that, but at least some of it is apparently based on emotional impressions of what folks think those situations are likely to be.

The concept is a good one: look for the most efficient and effective methods and strategies for dealing with the most likely real-world violence. Develop that and only that, with a focus on either ending or escaping an attack as quickly and efficiently as possible. Unfortunately, there can be a lot of bias involved, in avoiding things that look like TMA too much, as well as things that look too much like sport.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That might explain some of the confusion. Reality-based self-defense (RBSD) is a marketing term for training that is oriented away from sport, and supposedly focused at how violence actually happens in the street (and how best to respond to it). Some of it may in fact be actually that, but at least some of it is apparently based on emotional impressions of what folks think those situations are likely to be.
> 
> The concept is a good one: look for the most efficient and effective methods and strategies for dealing with the most likely real-world violence. Develop that and only that, with a focus on either ending or escaping an attack as quickly and efficiently as possible. Unfortunately, there can be a lot of bias involved, in avoiding things that look like TMA too much, as well as things that look too much like sport.


I know exactly what you’re talking about. I took me awhile to realize, that “legit RBSD” is essentially advanced MMA, with some street tactical training.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I’ve been confused as to the definition of “RBSD,” but now I think I get it. I thought RBSD referred to just real-world violence in general.


RBSD is like Medieval costume fairs.  They usually focus on re-enactment of events.  Where they run into trouble is a lack of actual training in martial art.  A few people in LARP gear can kill you with daggers and swords because they train HEMA or Escrima or something.  But most are playing dress up.

So you get a lot of guys in full tactical mode telling you what's gonna happen but this guy can't even pummel without gassing put.  That's your reality right there, most of the guys who sell RBSD are simply not even in fighting condition.

The weapons guys are even worse, because a lot of them claim military and security creds that are sus.  Sasha Baron Cohen parodied this, and  punked some Merican politician dude by pretending to be an Israeli Commando RBSD expert.

"Picture the scene: you're chained to a radiator, naked, with a bag over your head...".  RBSD in a nutshell.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 21, 2022)

You might be asking how people could possibly fall for this stuff.

Me too.

This one is age restricted (How to Survive a Beheading), but worth it.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> RBSD is like Medieval costume fairs.  They usually focus on re-enactment of events.  Where they run into trouble is a lack of actual training in martial art.  A few people in LARP gear can kill you with daggers and swords because they train HEMA or Escrima or something.  But most are playing dress up.
> 
> So you get a lot of guys in full tactical mode telling you what's gonna happen but this guy can't even pummel without gassing put.  That's your reality right there, most of the guys who sell RBSD are simply not even in fighting condition.
> 
> ...


Some of them are legit and know their stuff, but you have to stumble through a lot of ******** before you can tell the difference.

I distinctly remember attending an RBSD seminar awhile back. What they were teaching overall, was very good--deescalation, drawing a weapon midfight, and weapons retention. Looking back, they made a comment about "authorizing" an instructor to teach women about using a knife in a kidnapping situation. They made it sound almost mystical. Years later, I learn that that knowledge is pretty much open-source and straightforward, assuming you know where to look. Other instructors were very clear about the legal and ethical issues-- but did not do the whole "it's too advanced and dangerous for you to learn."

Travis Haley, Tu Lam, Tim Kennedy, Mike Glover, DJ Shipley, and the like-- all guys that did hardcore counter-terror stuff and door-kicking in the Middle East. They know their **** when it comes to gunfighting and room clearing. It IS a bit much, that they each have, at one point or another, had their own lines of knives, chest rigs, gun parts, etc....but that's another story.

From what I can tell, the guys more in touch with what happens in the context of street violence, are law enforcement (especially undercovers), and plain-clothes commandos (like Duvdevan, Israelis that pretend to be Palestinian Muslims).

What you're referring to with the "in a nutshell" is "Counter-Custody," which is a legit, but also very niche area of training. There are few qualified instructors, and they do not readily advertise themselves.


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## drop bear (Sep 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> RBSD is like Medieval costume fairs.  They usually focus on re-enactment of events.  Where they run into trouble is a lack of actual training in martial art.  A few people in LARP gear can kill you with daggers and swords because they train HEMA or Escrima or something.  But most are playing dress up.
> 
> So you get a lot of guys in full tactical mode telling you what's gonna happen but this guy can't even pummel without gassing put.  That's your reality right there, most of the guys who sell RBSD are simply not even in fighting condition.
> 
> ...



Larp would be technically better because at least it is contested.

You can loose at larp if you are  crap at it.


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