# Any practitioners of Kyukokinshai here?



## drunken mistress (Oct 16, 2004)

I went to classes in Shukokai with my son for six months before our teacher decided to leave the country. The only karate teacher we could find was freestyle so we did this for 9 months. He kept saying he was going to get someone to grade the class but kept failing to do so. He´s a black belt 2nd Dan so his karate is good but I feel he´s letting the kids down by not grading them or setting up someone to do so. I am about to move myself and my son to a different class as he won´t set up grading. The only one available is Kyukokinshai in Spanish. We can just about manage the Spanish and are both willing to try a new style (again). At least the Spanish school has proper licences and insurance and has promised exams and gradings. Does anyone here practice this type of karate? What are its advantages?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 20, 2004)

I'm thinking you mean kyokushinkai. Great system for learning to lay down damage with stoic determination. Not sure if it's ideal for training kids, however.

D.


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## DucPilot (Jun 9, 2005)

I am a Kyokushin practitioner in Connecticut. I am lucky to be under the tutilege of Kaicho Farzinzad who may just be the top Kyokushin instructor in the world. He earned his Fifth Dan from Sosai Oyama at the age of thirty, the youngest man ever to achieve that rank (under Oyama himself). He has founded the International Kyukoshinkai Union (IKU) with its headquarters in Hartford, CT.

Kyokushin practice is not fun. If you are looking for a good time, pick another style or form.

If you want to be pushed beyond your own notions of physical limitations and learn a no frills combat art - its for you. Instructors who are true to the Kyokushin philosophy also interject a great deal of moral and spiritual development into the training. About an hour into our practice, when you are kicking on pure will power and heart - it becomes a spiritual event regardless. You catch glimpses of your inner self.

I would recommend participating in a practice before you make a decision. Most importantly, find an instructor who cares about the development of his students, not just the greenbacks. I wish all of you could come to the Honbu and particiapte in our training and meet Kaicho. He is the real deal who does it for the love of Kyokushin and his fellow man. He operates as a non-profit (currently applying for 501(c)(3) status) and basically funds the school from his own pocket. Tuition is meager and many pay what they can, some (especially kids) don't pay at all. Its an honor system - which means everything there.

I don't look forward to going to practice but the sense of fulfillment afterwards is so tremendous that you crave the lessons and feel empty if you miss one.

I'd gladly discuss my experiences and observations with anyone who wants to chat.

I truly encourage anyone who can make it to Hartford to come by.

Osu.


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## ABI (Jun 10, 2005)

My first encounter with karate was with Kyokushinkai in 1990. Unfortunately, I was unable to train more then half a year. It was a very tuff style with a lot of sweatting. I think kyokushin is the only full-contact karate style when it comes to competitions.
The fact that you have to do like 50 push-ups to take shodan tells a lot about how tuff this style is.
I now practice Shotokan, but I wish I was still in Kyokushin. I'm very fascinated by the late Oyama Sensei and his power (he used to fight bulls with his bare hands).
The sad thing about choosing a style is that you don't have much choice. You take whatever style which's near where you live. And maybe later, you'll have the opportunity to switch to a style that appeals to you. But that's not always possible.


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## drunken mistress (Jun 11, 2005)

You write -
The sad thing about choosing a style is that you don't have much choice. You take whatever style which's near where you live. And maybe later, you'll have the opportunity to switch to a style that appeals to you. But that's not always possible.


I fell into Kyokushin in this way after studying Freestyle and Shukokai. I am glad that I did though as it is a wonderful style for developing strength. That being said because of its toughness there is a huge fall out rate amongst students. I have seen one guy faint and another burst into tears in my class! I am the only woman left doing it. I am fifty and twenty years older than everyone else including the teacher but I manage to keep going and have grown a lot in strength.

Our teacher, Antonio Celdran, is a great guy. He is only first Dan but tougher than my previous teachers who were a higher Dan. He loves karate far more than money. There have been occasions when only about three of us turned uo and he still gave the class all his enthusiasm and went over time. We pay a monthly rate to the gym where his dojo is and he often puts on extra classes for nothing. He showed us video footage of Oyama killing a bull - amazing strength. He also brought in Klaus Rex (6th Dan) who had been the trainer for the Spanish team. He gave us a 3 hour class for nothing - he was amazingly strong. My classes are in Spanish which is not my first language but I prefer going to these even though English classes in Shotokan have now started in my area. I have stuck with the Spanish ones because our teacher is a good guy who really loves karate.

My son who is 8 goes to the kids´class also but he is less keen on the style. I think it may not be perfect for him.


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## Martin h (Jun 19, 2005)

Kyokushin is a good style, but due to the heavy fighting aspect, it is not for everyone. Many are put off by the hard sparring and the rigorus physical exersices required to handle that sparring.

Either you love it or you dont.

I have never realy liked the idea of teaching it to kids though. Even though Ive taught the occational junior class myself.

As in all karate the teacher is the real key to getting a good training. A good instructor can give meaning even to the crappiest McDojo style, and a bad one will ruin even the best style. Glad to hear you are satisfied with the one you´ve found.

Osu and Welcome to kyokushinkai.
(kyokushin = the style. Kyokushinkai = practicioners of kyokushin as a group. Many get that mixed up).

To ABI: there are several styles of karate competing in full-contact/knockdown. Seidokaikan, Enshin karate, World Oyama karate, Shidokan, Ashihara karate, Daido juku and many, many more. Allmost all are descendants from kyokushin though.


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## Shibumi (Jul 31, 2005)

I train in Abilene Texas under Wesley Bales. His lineage to Oyama begins with Don Buck. He has trained in this style for a little over 25 years, and has a 4th Dan or 6th Dan depending on whose organization you consider (Steven Senne or Fred Buck). It has been my privilege to train under him for most of five years. We have a small school (hard to keep students after the first time we do one thousand front kicks in a class) so I look forward to meeting some other Kyokushin practitioners.


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## Shibumi (Jul 31, 2005)

Your instructor and mine sound a lot alike, mine makes no money to speak of from teaching and is always available for extra training outside class.


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## MetalForBreakfast (Jul 17, 2007)

DucPilot said:


> I am a Kyokushin practitioner in Connecticut. I am lucky to be under the tutilege of Kaicho Farzinzad who may just be the top Kyokushin instructor in the world. He earned his Fifth Dan from Sosai Oyama at the age of thirty, the youngest man ever to achieve that rank (under Oyama himself). He has founded the International Kyukoshinkai Union (IKU) with its headquarters in Hartford, CT.
> 
> Kyokushin practice is not fun. If you are looking for a good time, pick another style or form.
> 
> ...


DucPilot, does Kaicho Farzinzad own a store in Avon?  I mentioned the school to my current instructor and he said he thought he owned a store in the nearby area.  I want to check out your school to see if I could physically handle the intensity of your style, I've been interested in it for quite a while.

And if this thread is old, I apologize for dragging it up, but this caught my interest....


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## Zero (Jul 21, 2007)

Depending what you want for you and your kids out of karate or any martial art, this comment may not be on point for you - but I would be interested in what others and of course kyokoshinkai praticitioners think:

I don't train in KSK as a core style but have trained with and fought many practitioners of that style.  WHile like muay thai and kickboxing ksk training and sparring can be very intense and at times brutal I think the main fault (yes fault!) with the style is its sport like rule of not being able to deliver punches/elbow etc strikes to the head.  I have found time and again while fighting ksk students and watching them fight that when they enter freestyle or mma tournaments this can put them at a disadvantage as they are not used and conditioned to covering up, primarily to punches but also not quite as experienced with head kicks either.  This of course doesn't aply to experienced fighters who are used to mixing it up.

My sensei having fought and trained throughout Asia arranged for the number 2 under 20 ksk from Japan to stay and train with us for several months while he was studying. And while this guy was incredibly conditioned and tough with a kick-**** attitude fro the first month I punished him severally with punches and to a degree front kicks/hook kicks to the head (albeit when in close my kidneys always semed to get a hammering from him!!!).  The guy was good and very smart though so after a month he had the idea down but it was still a weakness for a while (I often wonder if training with us got him disqualified back home by automatically throwing a straight or hook in a tournament).

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that while ksk is a hard as nails style with a lot of great skills  -  and I am in no way disrespecting it or its students - I see this as a glaring omission and can't get my head around why Mas went this way!  And hey I know every style on its own has weaknesses and blindspots but to remove such a vunerable body part from so many effective strikes puzzles me.


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## drunken mistress (Jul 21, 2007)

I see what you are saying but Kyokushinkai definitely does allow kicks to the head although not punches. Indeed kicks to the head seem to be the principal way of winning tournaments.


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## Martin h (Jul 22, 2007)

The lack of headpunches and the bad habit it creates when people only focus on tournament rule sparring, is a well known problem in kyokushin. Some groups are doing something about it though. Kyokushin-kan, one of the kyokushin factions arranges competitions with light (MMA style) gloves+face punching from this year on.  The new rules also allows, grabbs and throws

Here are a few glimpses from the first time it was used in their world championship a few months back (please remember that they are still unfamilliar with the rules)..





















Here are two from the "test tournament" they had a few months before that. They had helmets then, but the fighters hated them, so they removed them in the real competition.









You can read more of the event at:
http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/kyokushin-karate/2497-shinkenshoubu-rules-kyokushin-kan-3.html


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## MetalForBreakfast (Jul 22, 2007)

The lack of head punches doesn't really bother me that much since my other style is Kempo and we do plenty of punches to the head.  The reason I want to learn kyokushin is that like most other kempo schools, I never sparred with any kind of contact until black belt, and even then my instructors have let us spar continuous full contact maybe three or four times in the six years I've been there.  That and I figure a kyokushin school will get me in MUCH better shape.  That said, I also have zero grappling training other than what I've picked up from friends who wrestle or do jiu jitsu, and now I've found another school near me that trains BJJ and Judo.   All that aside, I really want to know if that hartford kyokushin kai LLC place is still around.   As far as kids in Kyokushin...do they have little kids classes?  It doesn't seem like a style that would water itself down at all for younger children.


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## chinto (Jul 23, 2007)

MetalForBreakfast said:


> The lack of head punches doesn't really bother me that much since my other style is Kempo and we do plenty of punches to the head. The reason I want to learn kyokushin is that like most other kempo schools, I never sparred with any kind of contact until black belt, and even then my instructors have let us spar continuous full contact maybe three or four times in the six years I've been there. That and I figure a kyokushin school will get me in MUCH better shape. That said, I also have zero grappling training other than what I've picked up from friends who wrestle or do jiu jitsu, and now I've found another school near me that trains BJJ and Judo. All that aside, I really want to know if that hartford kyokushin kai LLC place is still around. As far as kids in Kyokushin...do they have little kids classes? It doesn't seem like a style that would water itself down at all for younger children.


 

there are a lot of styles that are Not waterd down for kids. meany of the shorin ryu and other styles. as to full contact sparring, by its very nature it requieres protective equitment and of course rules to not injure the sparring partner.  so I am not really sure why " hard sparring" is any advantage if you are trained properly.


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## drunken mistress (Jul 23, 2007)

It is probably the best workout you will ever get. That´s one reason I stayed with Kyokyushin. I feel like my strength has doubled in the two and a half years I´ve done it. It is also very good for aerobic fitness as well as strength. I´ve done all sorts of things like weights and step aerobics before but none of them came near Kyokushin for getting you fit. The kids´classes worked well at first when there were plenty of tough little tykes in there. These days they are a problem though as too many young kids joined in the end and one of them mucks around non-stop and tempts others to do so. in the end the larger older kids like my son tend to train with the adults 2 days a week on techniques and stamina then go back in the kids´class one evening a week for fighting so that they don´t get hurt by adults twice their size.


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## Zero (Jul 23, 2007)

as to full contact sparring, by its very nature it requieres protective equitment and of course rules to not injure the sparring partner. so I am not really sure why " hard sparring" is any advantage if you are trained properly.[/quote]

Come on Chinto, hard sparring is required and much needed for anyone who will be going into full contact or semi contact competition or wants to be prepared for - or even look forward to - a full on street/no rules fight.  You need to know that you can 'take a punch' as well as give one.  It is only when you experience a full force blow (or close to full force) that your full appreciation for it and for the importance of evading one comes into being - there is no greater incentive.

You also need to drill on delivering full contact blows (and of course in training with protective gear).  Otherwsie you are not going to be used to hitting full out when it is needed.  The amount of times I have absorbed some half arsed kick to the abdomen and continued forward to knock the guy on his back is a joke.


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## chinto (Jul 23, 2007)

Zero said:


> as to full contact sparring, by its very nature it requieres protective equitment and of course rules to not injure the sparring partner. so I am not really sure why " hard sparring" is any advantage if you are trained properly.


 
Come on Chinto, hard sparring is required and much needed for anyone who will be going into full contact or semi contact competition or wants to be prepared for - or even look forward to - a full on street/no rules fight. You need to know that you can 'take a punch' as well as give one. It is only when you experience a full force blow (or close to full force) that your full appreciation for it and for the importance of evading one comes into being - there is no greater incentive.

You also need to drill on delivering full contact blows (and of course in training with protective gear). Otherwsie you are not going to be used to hitting full out when it is needed. The amount of times I have absorbed some half arsed kick to the abdomen and continued forward to knock the guy on his back is a joke.[/quote]


I guess it depends on who you train with and how you train. I have taken full force punches long before I started to train in karate.  hell never felt any of the blows tht ever landed on me in a real fight the few times I had to fight. ( as in not a sparring match but in self defence) If you train with things like makawara and train on focouse and power at times I really dont see it a problem to diliver power and focoused techniques to the attacker.
but then I dont train for compition myself. I train for the joy of it and for self defence. I know the importance of evasion and all the other things that are a part of my training. besides I dont kick to abdomins, I prefer knees and ankles and groins myself for kicks...


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## Zero (Jul 24, 2007)

Chinto, I wasn't questioning your own ability or experience but merely stating my thoughts on what makes a more effective and able fighter (mainly from my own experience and those I train with). 

Another reason in respect of those training to fight - be it competition or street brawling - for putting hard contact sparring above (as well as an essential supplmenent to) makawara or just the heavy bag is that you need to train with the evasivenensss of an opponent - landing blows on a moving and countering person is a completely different game than with a reasonably static or predictable makawara/bag etc.


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## Martin h (Jul 24, 2007)

If you spar without full power, you will not be able to fight with full power simple as that. It is not as easy as just going all out. You need to do, and practice it.

Unless you spar using full power techniques and combinations (and do them continuous, not break for each hit expecting a point to be awarded) , you will not be able to throw them for real. If you spar with semi or light contact, you actually train yourself NOT to throw them full contact. And unless you have had a opponent throw full power shots at you with serious intent to hit, you are just not prepared to absorb/block them and continue the fight.

Hitting the bag and pads is a good start, but it does not replace (not even slightly) actual live sparring.

Skill level is another matter entirely. High level no/light-contact fighters unused to full contact sparring will get their asses handed to them by much lower level fighters used to contact. Just as lower level no/light-contact fighters easily will defeat  high level full contact fighters in no/low-contact sparring. It is just different skills -and of philosophy.

OK. The knockdown karate rules then have their own problems (like no face punches), but there is no such thing as completely realistic fight competition rules.


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## chinto (Jul 25, 2007)

Zero said:


> Chinto, I wasn't questioning your own ability or experience but merely stating my thoughts on what makes a more effective and able fighter (mainly from my own experience and those I train with).
> 
> Another reason in respect of those training to fight - be it competition or street brawling - for putting hard contact sparring above (as well as an essential supplmenent to) makawara or just the heavy bag is that you need to train with the evasivenensss of an opponent - landing blows on a moving and countering person is a completely different game than with a reasonably static or predictable makawara/bag etc.


 

I understand what you are saying, and when we spar it is with the understanding by the uper kyu ranks that all targets are leagal with control....  this means you may get a short stoped kick that would have taken your knee.. and beleave me That gets your Attention!!  but I know I can take a punch if I have to.  so I look for techniques and evasions.. hell if i manage to evade a controled technique then I would have evaded a full power one. ( we throw full speed but with controled poewer.) my main point was that if you are worried about training for compitition you train one way. if you are worried about self defence and not compatition at all.. you may tend to look at things diferently.


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## chinto (Jul 25, 2007)

Martin h said:


> If you spar without full power, you will not be able to fight with full power simple as that. It is not as easy as just going all out. You need to do, and practice it.
> 
> Unless you spar using full power techniques and combinations (and do them continuous, not break for each hit expecting a point to be awarded) , you will not be able to throw them for real. If you spar with semi or light contact, you actually train yourself NOT to throw them full contact. And unless you have had a opponent throw full power shots at you with serious intent to hit, you are just not prepared to absorb/block them and continue the fight.
> 
> ...


 
well we do spar with out the stop with a "point" and we take it to the ground some times too.  and there are ground fighting techs in the kata if you look closely.  but I understand what you are saying. if you train only for say point fighting and face a full contact fight trained man you are in trouble. but, if you do not train for compitition like I dont, then you train diferently then the man who does train for compatition. and we put on the armor and do all out once in a while.  but my main point was if you train to fight for keeps, with the stuff that is in the unmodified, old style  kata you will be training for the fight that should last seconds, not minutes. real fights on the street are short and nasty. compleatly diferent then what you see in a turnement or in say the UFC or K1 rings.


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## Zero (Jul 25, 2007)

You will find that with a real fight on the street, if you ever come up against an experienced/trained fighter, you self defence moves may not be of much use (excluding a quick groin/eye shot you may get in). The self defence techniques are generally for against unskilled or low skill level aggressors.  They will not help much on their own against a skilled ma fighter.

The fights I train for are full contact mma.  MY whole training philosophy is for both competing in the ring and for when having to fight another skilled opponent no-holds-barred on the street - to me there is no purer/truer way in karate and martial arts and no truer test of one's self and your own ability.  An experienced fighter knows your own defence moves and instinctively feels them 'coming on' - you need to defeat them with pure, no nonsense attacks.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 25, 2007)

ok lets get back to discussing Kyukokinshai its benefits and negative aspects.

I have know many Kyukokinshai over the years and found there strikes to be hard and at times devastating. The hand conditioning they do is fronded upon by many today but if you ever get hit by one of those fists it hurts like hell.
Now I have seen in this thread the reference to the Kyukokinshai people not doing a lot of head punches but I am here to tell you they know how to hit the head and have no trouble punching you in the face if they so desire.
Is this a good system for children? well, I guess that would depend on the instructor. I personally think a person should be  in their late teens to start this training and have their muscle and bone growth pretty well developed before trying the system, but that is only a personal thought.  The training is HARD and not for those afraid of a little contact


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## Zero (Jul 25, 2007)

Now you've gone and got us in trouble for going off topic Chinto!!

Oh and tshadowchaser, after years of fighting ksk fighters, I'm here to tell you that many of them (not all!!) are not up there when it comes to blocking/slipping head punches - and this is a gap I think people should consider and make amends for in supplemental training - but granted not something that is  exactly on point for the intial query on this link.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 25, 2007)

> many of them (not all!!) are not up there when it comes to blocking/slipping head punches


 
that could be said of many in most styles/systems


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## MetalForBreakfast (Jul 26, 2007)

well it sounds good to me, I just wish I could figure out whats up with this international kyokushin kai union and Hartford Kyokushinkai LLC.  I can't find ANY information on the organization or the intructor.


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## chinto (Jul 26, 2007)

Zero said:


> You will find that with a real fight on the street, if you ever come up against an experienced/trained fighter, you self defence moves may not be of much use (excluding a quick groin/eye shot you may get in). The self defence techniques are generally for against unskilled or low skill level aggressors. They will not help much on their own against a skilled ma fighter.
> 
> The fights I train for are full contact mma. MY whole training philosophy is for both competing in the ring and for when having to fight another skilled opponent no-holds-barred on the street - to me there is no purer/truer way in karate and martial arts and no truer test of one's self and your own ability. An experienced fighter knows your own defence moves and instinctively feels them 'coming on' - you need to defeat them with pure, no nonsense attacks.


 

if you are attacked by a skilled fighter on the street, it will provably be an ambush and from behind and the attacker will be armed... survival will be a win. but on the other hand if it is something you do see comeing, and it is a skilled fighter you face, the fight will be over in a very very short time one way or the other.  the fight for your life is over very quickly, in 10's of seconds and defenently not minutes.  In that situation skill level you and the attacker have and intent will make a decisive diference.  oh and by the way you can just about garantee cops involved and provably hospital time for both or at least one, if not worse.


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## Martin h (Jul 27, 2007)

.


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## Martin h (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry, correction: they have no connection with the all-japan kyokushin union

Looks like a small american based organization. They had a webpage: http://www.iku-honbu.org/ but its dead now The same guy also ran the organization American kyokushinkai" (with the now dead link http://www.american-kyokushinkai.com/ ) created 1999.
There is very little info on this guy.


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## Zero (Jul 27, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> that could be said of many in most styles/systems


 
So sad Tshadowchaser, I know and lament the fact.  We should all spend more time if possible supplementing our training with boxers for the good old hand skills.


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## MetalForBreakfast (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the help martin, both my current instructors know him apparently and they think he may have closed his school, but they said I should go talk to him since he owns a store in the same town I live in.  As far as supplementing techniques, it's a matter of how you practice and how your instructor has you practice, imo.  People who NEVER train to punch to head will never punch to the head, whereas even if you spar without head punches, if you practice techniques with head punches, you'll *sort of* know what its like.  You fight like you train.


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