# List of sparring-related exercises within taijutsu practice



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 15, 2005)

Seeing that there tends to be some disagreement and confusion about sparring practice within the Bujinkan, and with me being indoors with a cold for the time being, I thought I would at least give it a shot to put that debate on a hold for a while by creating this thread. I'm going to go through (through the best of my recollection at this point) all the sparring types, sparring-related drills and practices with one or several free elements to them I personally have experienced through my meager experience of soon-to-be eight years altogether of practicing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I will try to give you a bit of my personal opinion on them and what I've experienced when doing them.

All I have said elsewhere before, the risk of sparring to early is that it may actually interfere with the practitioners's motivation for training, in that they have not yet realized that there are indeed circumstances during which certain techniques may be applied and others where they may not.
As has been seen time and again, some people may simply admit defeat once they find themselves unable to catch a boxing jab and apply an armbar or a wrist lock against the very person with which they first practiced that technique. Once this happens, there is the unfortunate risk of them settling on the techniques they may pull off in sparring practice only, and not putting in enough effort to understand where other things may be applicable. In this sense, sparring may become a limiting factor.

In my experience, the biggest breakthrough in training for many people including myself, is the day when you learn to stop just focusing on yourself and your movements, and start trying to figure out in which way your movements affect the other person's body, his balance, his posture and his will to attack. Because that is in my opinion the main reason this art is so difficult to learn; it is not enough to concentrate on yourself, you have to maintain a constant sense of control over your opponent's movements, or as Hatsumi calls it, "enveloping" your adversary. 
Now I'm not claiming to have gotten the hang of doing this, far, far from it. But one of the most important guidelines regarding the achievement of this control in my experience, is to get rid of the syndrome I like to call "white belt's overbite" or "white belt's shuffle" - that is, your arms and upper body moving frenetically while your legs are totally straight and your lower body is more or less immobile.

Since grappling and ground fighting is such a can of worms at times, I'm going to start from there and work my way up.

One on one submission wrestling with no deliberate striking is probably one of the most physically demanding sparring drills, but also one of the funniest, once you learn to like it. In my experience there hasn't really been much need to tell people that the goal of the exercise is first and foremost a conditioning one, and that it isn't Bujinkan SOP to "force" a technique through in real life (not to mention to ignore of other factors such as hidden weapons or backup from either participant's friends). Mainly, this has been because I have most often been lucky enough to do this drill with people I knew from before, but should that not be the case, then it may become a breeding ground for injuries as well as misconceptions about taijutsu practice as such - I for one would never conclude that I would always be able to defeat someone IRL regardless of the circumstances just because I beat him/her in a grappling match. That may however occur among beginners who haven't really gotten the hang of what the Bujinkan has got to offer yet.
From a purely technical point of view, I find it a bit sad that this exercise is often done by people who haven't been taught a substantial technique repertoire beforehand. It need not be BJJ-influenced techniques but simply demonstrations of how to apply simple things like oni kudaki, take ori and various chokes on the ground. But then again, that shouldn't be too much of a problem if you keep the proper perspective in mind and remember that the physical conditioning is the main purpose.

Other varieties of grappling sparring include doing the above with closed eyes, and groups of four people gathering on a mat space of about four square meters, and attempting to push each other outside of that zone, or one person lying down flat on his stomach who attempts to stand up with both feet on the ground at a given signal whilst another one is trying to hold him down, sometimes with kansetsu waza but most often with mere pinning techniques. This in my opinion is an excellent drill when used in conjunction with grappling sparring, so as to practice getting up quickly and not staying on the ground with someone who wants to keep you there. Then of course you have "ukemi tag" which is exactly what it sounds like - one guy tries to tag the others while they attempt to escape, but their only movement option is rolling in any direction.

Moving up from the ground for now, there is the classical type of judo randori in which you try to throw or sweep your partner (no follow-up on the ground, the thrower has to stay on his feet). Something that complicates the matter is that when done in the Bujinkan, the premises are often such that you may not release your hands from the kumiuchi grab, and if sacrifice throws aren't allowed either this drill often ends in a stalemate, because both know that there aren't a whole lot of techniques one can expect to be used, and therefore countering becomes very easy as long as one isn't caught off guard. When done properly, if you ask me, it can be a good way of indirectly demonstrating the limitations that adhering to set rules bears with it. Other balance drills would be for two people to grab a belt, a bo staff or each other's forearms and try to unbalance each other by making the other move his feet or loose his grip. You may also have two or three persons stand in a triangle while using pushes and shoves to make each other move their feet, or you can have two people standing with only their palms and their toes touching the ground and let them try to pull out each other's hands so that they'll fall and hit the ground with their torso.

There is also the drill in which one person wearing boxing gloves has to use striking and footwork to evade the other trying to clinch him and throw/sweep/take down. This may also be done one on two, or without boxing gloves if one uses only palm strikes to the body. 
Boxing and kickboxing sparring in my experience is most often done with full contact strikes to the body and semi-contact to the head. Varieties include one person using boxing gloves trying to strike the other, whose only goal is to use evasive footwork and practice maintaining kamae while in motion (this may be done with swords as well). I have also experienced instances in which NHB/Vale Tudo gloves have been used to drill kihon happo and/or kata from Gyokko ryu at a slightly increased speed and with harder contact. I have also used focus pads, in which all strikes and swings are done full contact, except for thrusting with the edge of the pad towards the head which is done in semi-contact. Finally, there is the so-called b*tch-slap sparring in which you try to hit the back of your opponent's shoulders or the inside of this thighs with your palm, and those who get hit have to do 10 pushups or situps.

All in all, boxing-type sparring when used correctly (that is, with people who have trained long enough to UNDERSTAND, not just know, that applied Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu does not use fixed fighting stances) does give a fair amount of eye-openers in regards to the principles of kamae, but I still cringe when people who do it for the first time start jumping to the conclusion that that is the way the average str337 aggressor is going to be hitting you.

With pads, another interesting drill reportedly favoured by Yagyu Shinkage ryu (only with swords instead of pads) is to have a group of people standing in a circle, with a lone guy in the middle. The circle then moves around becoming smaller and smaller, and the people in it may even at times move in on the middle person at an appropriate speed, and he uses any and all kinds of strikes to keep them at bay. 
With smaller focus pads, there is always the muay thai-like practice of moving them around while the striker tries to hit them with fists, slaps or shuto without letting lapse his kamae.

Then we have a classic Bujinkan practice method - good old muto dori/muto taihenjutsu. We all know that beginners often seem to think that getting hit with a shinai hurts way more than it actually does, so you can imagine the motivation for getting out of the way would be even greater when bokken are used instead (there is also the old horror story of a shihan who unfortunately doesn't train anymore, who used to hurl a bo staff full speed towards beginners's legs and expect them to roll over it - on a concrete floor, no less). Muto dori is anything but a static training drill - you can never be really sure about how long you have to wait each time before the attack comes, how deep the cut will be and how fast it will be heading towards your head or knees. If you don't think you learn distance, timing and mental preparation walking towards someone armed with a shinai who may or may not slash and thrust at you whilst expecting you to react properly by rolling under, over or away from the attack, think again. 

This very principle of the person you're training with alternating the frequency and power with which he'll attack you (even while still holding true to the form) can be applied pretty much anywhere, and is a great method for developing dynamic action and thinking even without free sparring. Even with a right cross boxer punch, there will be a time during which that elbow is extended to such a degree that you may be able to break it, and with training you will hopefully learn how to time, isolate and take advantage of that moment. A similar method is what the people of a particular dojo refer to as "rock-and-roll kihon happo". Basically, this means drilling the kihon happo or similar simple and basic techniques at a relatively high speed and with a just bit more power than semi-contact, while the person acting as uke attempts to protect himself a little more than usually - for instance, he may use his forearm to protect himself a bit in ichimonji no kata, pull his arm back towards himself to protect his wrist against a gyaku or retract the punching arm that you've just blocked to protect his ribcage/armpit while doing jumonji no kata. You may also do things like trying to apply hon gyaku, with your uke suddenly tensing up, upon which you change your direction a couple of times to distract him and then complete the crank when you've gotten him to relax. Naturally, tori has to adapt in various ways that he may find appropriate as well. Something that is absolutely essential for this drill to be beneficial is in my opinion that both participants know and have confidence in each other, so that it does not wind up being a competition. Of course, this holds true for all kinds of sparring.

Going further in this direction, there is also the notion of "practicing kata in such a way that it feels slightly like randori". An example of this would be during an instance this summer when I and another guy were practicing "Kanpo" from Kukishinden ryu Sojutsu. Seeing as we were outdoors with plenty of room to pedal, and I had a spear with a business end he wished to stay as far away from as possible, he simply didn't seem to want to stay put whenever I tried to thrust at him. Similarly, if I got too close to him he would attempt to strike my spear aside, charge in and cut me down, and also I made sure to alter the time between my attacks as often as possible. This too can be used to teach proper reflexes. Incidentally, this is also the basic setting of what the modern combatives crowd tend to refer to as "reactive combat scenarios".

Another drill which is useful for teaching kamae in motion and also favoured in many Indonesian systems is a special kind of foot trapping drill, in which two people start out standing in ichimonji close to each other with their own right foot in trapping position against the other person's right foot. You then start out with one person retreating backwards by taking a large step so that his left side is in lead. At the same time, the other guy moves in to trap his opponent's foot once again, and he may also throw a single strike of any kind with the same timing as he's moving his feet, and the other guy parries it so as to maintains his kamae, all in one motion. Another popular Silat-influenced method would be to start out doing any technique and then stopping just short of securing your control over your opponent, so that he may counter and to the same thing to you once again. 
There is also something we did this summer, which started out as a ganseki nage with uke having an extended arm, which he then bends to protect himself while you flow into o-gyaku, oni kudaki, musha dori, katamaki, te makura or similar stuff. The unwritten rule was that uke stopped resisting if the technique you put on was secured to something like 60-70 percent or more, and again, this isn't something you can really do successfully with someone you don't know and trust.

With swords, I've done shinai sparring with gloves (and a few times with a helmet when I was younger, I believe) in which thrusts were allowed semi-contact and to the abdomen, as well as full contact sparring with soft boffer swords (and a handful of times, with a soft bo staff versus sword) without any protection and the only rule being no thrusts to the face or groin. It's kind of funny that the arms and hands are pretty much always the first to get cut, and it's also kind of funny to notice that this approach is used in pretty much all of the nine basic sword kata in the Kukishinden Bikenjutsu, if memory serves me correctly...
However, proper cutting and moving with a Japanese katana takes quite an amount of time to be properly learned, and it is all too easy to fool oneself into thinking one knows how to handle a katana just by sparring practice alone. Another problem with this kind of training is that one may forget the high stakes of an actual duel with sharp swords - that is, if you screw up during initial contact, you're pretty much screwed without any possibility to make up for your misjudgement. Furthermore, blocking tends to be much more frequent in these kinds of matches than what would be preferable in real life. One way of circumventing this problem is for the "losing" person to instantly name the place where he's been hit, such as "right forearm", "left knee", "left shoulder" and so forth after which the duel is reset - kind of like kendo sparring procedure in reverse.

I have done free knife-to-knife sparring several times, but as Tim Bathurst pointed out last year, if the other guy has a knife and you know it, and you have a knife and he knows it, the most advisable thing to do is really to beat a hasty retreat. Knife versus empty hands in my experience most often revolves around the unarmed guy using footwork to evade, parry and counterattack the incoming knife arm, or (as mentioned above, depending on the intensity of the exercise at that particular time) to isolate the knife arm at a certain point and then move in on the knife wielding assailant, which can of course also be done in regular kata practice with heightened intensity and a smaller margin of error. As with all sparring, the reason many people wind up getting cut so much is very often that they attempt to hang back and remain defensive too long. At the very least, there is often a good chance that an aggressive and overwhelming counterattack has a larger probability of success than hanging back and staying in the opponent's "sweet spot" for the punishing type of knife assault, which is described on Animal's webpage under "dueling versus survival".

The "Circle of Death" in which the Yagyu ryu circle scenario is replicated with the defender empty handed, is a common practice method in many martial arts and has also been effectively employed by the Guardian Angels since the 70's. Sparring may have it's place but drills such as this in which the middle person has to improvise his defensive tactics on the spot can get you very far too, all the while reducing the risk of injury. 
Finally we have the so called "Nakadai sparring" - that is, one person strikes with all kinds of attacks with varying speed and power depending on the particular instance and the skill of the practitioners, while the other one evades his attacks and when told to by the instructor tries to take him down however he likes. The manner in which the attacker tries to resist may of course be increased as the two participants grow more skilled, but for now let's just say it's akin to what he would do in "rock-and-roll kihon happo" - not quite fighting for his life, but not quite compliant either.

Now, in my opinion both these kinds of drills are absolutely and utterly useless, sometimes also counterproductive, if the people doing them a) have not yet practiced basic techniques under what I believe Daniel Weidman once described as something along the lines of "the optimal circumstances in which to apply those particular techniques", b) have not yet learned how to integrate the motion of their feet with the maintaining of kamae, c) have not done very much bag- or focus mitts hitting (if you don't know what it's like to hit something that is relatively static, how are you effectively going to hit someone who is moving around?) and d) know and have mutual trust in each other. All of this takes time to achieve and to understand, longer time than many may be willing to admit. What's also important IMHO is that the terms and conditions are very clearly defined beforehand. That's NOT to say the whole affair should be turned into an overly regulated sporting contest - if both people know each other and are able to be friends at the end of the day no matter what happens I think you can go at each other as hard as you like. 

It's also necessary if you want to minimize the risks of injury that the participants know and respect the consequences of getting hit and act accordingly, so that you don't have to actually connect with things like slaps to the ear, knees to the groin or elbows to the throat. I'm saying this because it's all too easy to forget that getting hit with and without padding and regulated legal targets are two entirely different ballgames.

If I haven't made this clear before I have experienced all of these kinds of sparring numerous times, unless stated otherwise. Having said all of this, one thing that isn't mentioned very often is the possibility to train with a large degree of focus. If we see all training as a game we may learn the physical skills, but we may not learn how to stay focused. It is of course easier to remain focused whilst doing a drill than to be focused in the midst of chaos, which is illustrated by the quote "you use the drill to instill a skill, you fight with the skill and not the drill". In regards to the relatively slow training often employed within the Bujinkan, keep in mind that it is more difficult to generate power while training slowly, which hopefully may in due time lead to better developed biomechanics and thus greater power.

"Begin by realizing that all training is a simulation of reality. The operative word here is 'simulation'."

- Bob Orlando


Now, I need a pizza. :asian:


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## Kizaru (Nov 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> another interesting drill reportedly favoured by Yagyu Shinkage ryu (only with swords instead of pads) is to have a group of people standing in a circle, with a lone guy in the middle. The circle then moves around becoming smaller and smaller, and the people in it may even at times move in on the middle person at an appropriate speed, and he uses any and all kinds of strikes to keep them at bay....
> 
> The "Circle of Death" in which the Yagyu ryu circle scenario is replicated with the defender empty handed, is a common practice method


 
Sorry, just out of curiousity, where did you hear about this? I have some very close friends here in Japan who train in the Shinkage ryu (quite religously) and they've never heard of anything like that.

Just curious.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 15, 2005)

I actually don't recall where I heard it for the first time, but the drill (using swords, of course) seems to be used both here and there in Japanese martial arts.


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## Shogun (Nov 18, 2005)

On the topic of ground fighting, I would like to clarify what real Gracie Jiu Jitsu is about. 

1. No technique is forced. standing up, you have to deal with things such as opponent's height and weight, strength, etc. on the ground, much like in the water, these things become almost irrelanvant, and Leverage becomes the dominant application. using leverage to sweep the person and land in a more favorable position.

2. at first, you may tire quickly, but once you have a few techniques down, you don't even need to use much energy at all.

3. when dealing with weapons/multiple attackers: say you get taken down by a person who has friends. the moment when you sweep him, place your knee in his chest, and crush his face, can take about 3 sedonds or less  when done right.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 18, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> 1. No technique is forced.


 
Do you see me saying anything about BJJ such as this in my text? No. I meant to imply that that is what occurs at times during grappling sparring sessions in the Bujinkan. Even so, I've grappled with my instructor (who hasn't trained in BJJ) several times and I still have no idea as to how strong he really is. I honestly can't tell.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> standing up, you have to deal with things such as opponent's height and weight, strength, etc. on the ground, much like in the water, these things become almost irrelanvant,


 
*cough cough LEO NEGAO cough cough*

Size and strength matters. That doesn't mean they can't be circumvented.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> 2. at first, you may tire quickly, but once you have a few techniques down, you don't even need to use much energy at all.


 
Well, there you have it. You settle on what works in sparring.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> 3. when dealing with weapons/multiple attackers: say you get taken down by a person who has friends. the moment when you sweep him, place your knee in his chest, and crush his face, can take about 3 sedonds or less when done right.


 
That's assuming you're not bleeding out from either a stab wound or a crushed skull from your head hitting the pavement in the fall. We can play guessing games all day, but _you cannot exactly determine beforehand what an altercation will be like, and thus prepare yourself with a specific technique arsenal based on what you THINK you will have to handle._
**** happens, sorry to say it.


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## Shogun (Nov 18, 2005)

> **** happens, sorry to say it.


No doubt. It wasn't my intention to make arguement. 

but you know how people make all these statements about Bujinkan, and have the wrong idea....?well I wanted to clarify it before people start those about GJJ.



> *cough cough LEO NEGAO cough cough*


I don't know what this means. 


> Size and strength matters. That doesn't mean they can't be circumvented.


thats exactly what I was implying when I said _almost irrelevant._


> That's assuming you're not bleeding out from either a stab wound or a crushed skull from your head hitting the pavement in the fall. We can play guessing games all day, but _you cannot exactly determine beforehand what an altercation will be like, and thus prepare yourself with a specific technique arsenal based on what you THINK you will have to handle._


True. its this way with any martial art, street fight, sparring, mma fight etc.

sparring is sparing. the idea isn't to say "oh, a guy grabbed my gi in sparring and now I know how to armbar a guy in a street fight". the idea is proper energy uage and energy conservation. I actually don't even do that much sparring. but plenty of times I have learned a technique. then I spar with a new guy in the class who, in order to protect his pride, is basically trying everything he knows. I then try the technique as done is basic class, and it doesnt work right. so then I think about where the guy's energy is directed, think about the principles of the technique (much like it were a kata, cause it basically is) and and then the techique becomes easy. so its more a matter of "becoming" the energy source.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 18, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> but you know how people make all these statements about Bujinkan, and have the wrong idea....?well I wanted to clarify it before people start those about GJJ.


 
Save your breath, this thread isn't about that.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> I don't know what this means.


 
Leo Negao is a BJJ guy. A BIG BJJ guy.


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## Shogun (Nov 18, 2005)

> Leo Negao is a BJJ guy. A BIG BJJ guy.


Oh. ok. I've never heard of him before. how about Leozinho Vieira? or Eddie Bravo? they are some of the best grapplers in the world, and they are about 149 lbs each.



> Save your breath, this thread isn't about that.


Yet. its not your intention to start a thread about it but any time sparring is mentioned, people come in and talk about how GJJ/BJJ guy spar all the time and whatnot. we don't. I spar MAYBE once a week. Muay Thai guys and Taekwondo guys spar 100 times more than GJJ guys do.

back on topic of Bujinkan sparring, every single sparring scenario should be different. some sugestions is having someone mount you, and having a bokken or similar lying about ten feet away. the attacker tries to keep you down and maybe even strike you, while you try and get to your feet,..and get to the bokken.
or, have the attacker hide a tanto inside his/her gi, and then at some point, or no point (mix it up) pull it out. not pulling it out is a viable option and have Tori get to it first. or simply Hide it from tori and choose whether or not to use it.


Kyle


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 18, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Yet. its not your intention to start a thread about it but any time sparring is mentioned, people come in and talk about how GJJ/BJJ guy spar all the time and whatnot.


 
First things first, this hasn't happened here yet. Actually, I thought for a moment that I might ask for the initial post to become a sticky of some sort.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> we don't. I spar MAYBE once a week. Muay Thai guys and Taekwondo guys spar 100 times more than GJJ guys do.


 
Not in Thailand.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> back on topic of Bujinkan sparring, every single sparring scenario should be different. some sugestions is having someone mount you, and having a bokken or similar lying about ten feet away. the attacker tries to keep you down and maybe even strike you, while you try and get to your feet,..and get to the bokken.


 
It's funny, because a lot of people nowadays stress that you shouldn't be too fixated and reliant upon any weapon, and that's just speaking about a weapon you have in your hands already...



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> or, have the attacker hide a tanto inside his/her gi, and then at some point, or no point (mix it up) pull it out. not pulling it out is a viable option and have Tori get to it first. or simply Hide it from tori and choose whether or not to use it.


 
Been there, done that. Not very useful if you're using the standard wooden tanto with no concealment clothing except a gi jacket and maybe a t-shirt under and both of you know who's got a knife.


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## Shogun (Nov 18, 2005)

> Not in Thailand.


never been there.



> It's funny, because a lot of people nowadays stress that you shouldn't be too fixated and reliant upon any weapon, and that's just speaking about a weapon you have in your hands already...


Thats proabaly true, but if you were in a street fight, and you looked over and saw a chunk of rebar.....



> Been there, done that. Not very useful if you're using the standard wooden tanto with no concealment clothing except a gi jacket and maybe a t-shirt under and both of you know who's got a knife.


If you don't know though, it becomes useful.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 18, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> If you don't know though, it becomes useful.


 
Just as with many techniques that CAN'T be pulled off in sparring.

BTT.


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## Shogun (Nov 18, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *Shogun*
> _If you don't know though, it becomes useful._


actually let me re-phrase that. If They don't know, it becomes useful. we shouldn't assume that we are fighting someone from within our art. in fact, just the opposite.


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## MaVolt (Nov 23, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I actually don't recall where I heard it for the first time, but the drill (using swords, of course) seems to be used both here and there in Japanese martial arts.



By no means I do not deny the usage of the "circle of death" sparring in various MA; however,  it is not practised in Aikido this way - the purpose of the practise on the picture is to get OUT FROM the circle, not stay in it.
I don´t want to be a nitpicker, I´m just clarifying things, no offence ment.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Nov 23, 2005)

re: "..., there is also the notion of "practicing kata in such a way that it feels slightly like randori". ..., this is also the basic setting of what the modern combatives crowd tend to refer to as "reactive combat scenarios".

  - Nim'

 I've always called that, "having a good uke." Doesn't sound as technical, but it is - sometimes takes a while to develop enough experience for that sort of thing.

 also, re: "Today a young man crosstraining in shootfighting realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slower vibration, ..."

Bill Hicks would be proud! :asian:

_gambatte



_


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 23, 2005)

Nobunaga had the right thought, he was just an underachiever.:flame:


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## swiftpete (Jan 3, 2006)

Some good drills in there, i have done most or variations on them in the time i've been training. But there are some good ideas in there that i haven't done that i'll recommend to my instructor! Been doing a lot of blind training lately, i find that a lot of times now even when i'm training without the blindfold though, i realise i've got my eyes closed after i've done a technique or had a technique done on me, or when grappling. I think you can feel the other persons movement and body and also what you're doing yourself more when you have ur eyes closed. It is something i'm realising is more and more important as training goes on so maybe thats why. 
Sounds and looks stupid when i read it in print but if you do blind training i'd hope u know what i mean.
Yeah i understand how zatoichi did it at last!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 3, 2006)

Didn't feel like starting a new topic, so I thought I'd use this one instead.

As we all know, you get good at what you practice a lot. Seeing as I found myself in a dojo earlier this year in which actual ground techniques were regularly practiced, and not just your typical warmup-warmdown newaza session (though we did that as well), I found myself getting pretty good at it, at least according to the standards of the "little people" within the Bujinkan. Regular viewing of Tony Cecchine's "Lost Art of Hooking" also helped, I believe - if you have any substantial training experience within the Bujinkan I guarantee that you will recognize many of the principles in there.
Right now however, after going through a period where I haven't had the opportunity to regularly practice actual techniques while on the ground, newaza sparring sessions are becoming more and more frequent, while I find myself having lost a bit of my knack along the way. Now, at least where I train this kind of sparring is indeed utilized mainly as a form of physical conditioning and not as drilling of techniques per se. But I'm starting to worry about whether or not this kind of training might be detrimental to your actual ground game, seeing as behavioral patterns are more effectively ingrained as the amount of stress, speed and intensity increases. Granted, in this kind of sparring no strikes are allowed, and among the abilities that I still do retain is the ability to get up quickly should the need arise (as well as a pretty solid kesa gatame/scarf hold and side control, if anyone's interested).

In short, I'd like to discuss the pros/cons of having taught actual grappling techniques to students before having them spar it out. And before someone starts questioning whether or not groundfighting "exists" within taijutsu, I'd like to quote myself on the subject - if the "What Is Martial Arts" video had never been put out, would anyone have guessed that we're "allowed" to use hip bridging and similar moves and still call what we're doing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?


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## Shogun (Feb 6, 2006)

I think simply sparring and not practicing technique is HIGHLY detrimental to training. under pressure, your only going to remember a limited set of moves, or none at all, and they will never improve. when you train the move in slow motion, you can think of every possible motion and henka for it. 

I think training the technique over and over BEFORE sparring is a better approach. without properly feeling out the technique, a beginner might become stressed and clamp on, hurting their partner. this may be okay on the street or whatever, but its bad for their training, and of course, their partner's health.


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## DWeidman (Feb 8, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> In short, I'd like to discuss the pros/cons of having taught actual grappling techniques to students before having them spar it out. And before someone starts questioning whether or not groundfighting "exists" within taijutsu, I'd like to quote myself on the subject - if the "What Is Martial Arts" video had never been put out, would anyone have guessed that we're "allowed" to use hip bridging and similar moves and still call what we're doing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?


 
I can't think of any Cons to teaching technique before rolling...

As to the hip bridging... I would have said hip-bridging is in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (as Sensei is pretty relaxed on control of Budo Taijutsu - allowing freedom to change and add as necessary...).  You can probably take the Kihon Happo and use the "henka" card to attach to practically ANY Martial Arts move...

The question comes down to which of the 9 traditions did the "bridging" come from (and then is *your* version of bridging the historically accurate one?)?

-Daniel Weidman


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## eyebeams (Feb 8, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> I can't think of any Cons to teaching technique before rolling...
> 
> As to the hip bridging... I would have said hip-bridging is in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (as Sensei is pretty relaxed on control of Budo Taijutsu - allowing freedom to change and add as necessary...). You can probably take the Kihon Happo and use the "henka" card to attach to practically ANY Martial Arts move...
> 
> ...



That's wierd. I *learned* hip bridging from Budo Taijutsu before learning it anywhere else. Mind you, the guy I learned it from (Court Elliot) was also apparently a jujutsu BB as well.


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## rutherford (Feb 9, 2006)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> You can probably take the Kihon Happo and use the "henka" card to attach to practically ANY Martial Arts move...
> 
> The question comes down to which of the 9 traditions did the "bridging" come from (and then is *your* version of bridging the historically accurate one?)?
> 
> -Daniel Weidman


 
Do you see Ichimonji in the hip bridge?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 9, 2006)

And when does an o-gyaku done with your leg become an omoplata rather than an o-gyaku? :ultracool


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## rutherford (Feb 9, 2006)

If the other person loses their footing and submits to the shoulder lock before you complete the omoplata sweep.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I think simply sparring and not practicing technique is HIGHLY detrimental to training. under pressure, your only going to remember a limited set of moves, or none at all, and they will never improve.


Not only that, it engrains your bad habits too.  I have been taught that Ran Dori and this sort of stress type of training should make up no more than about 3% of your training.   Not a hard number but about what we like to keep it to.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

I think the principles for what you do standing  up apply to the ground. Your just on a different plane.

When we are training and trying to step it up a notch, if we find openings in the response, we will counter and try to turn the tables on the tori.  Not everyone but those who have enough skill and experience to do so with.  Often times, it ends up on the ground with each trying to counter the other using taijutsu.  I find that it is a good thing to do once in a while as it gives me an idea of the things I have NOT yet made my own.  To me it seems that on the ground it is much like having your back against the wall, but the principles are all there, it is still taijutsu.


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## rutherford (Feb 9, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> When we are training and trying to step it up a notch, if we find openings in the response, we will counter and try to turn the tables on the tori. Not everyone but those who have enough skill and experience to do so with. Often times, it ends up on the ground with each trying to counter the other using taijutsu.


 
I do that with friends.  We don't use class time for that.  We might, if we were all a heck of a lot better than we are, but I still kinda doubt it.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> I do that with friends.  We don't use class time for that.  We might, if we were all a heck of a lot better than we are, but I still kinda doubt it.


For us, when we do it, it happens more at the end of class.   Not as the actual lesson and definitely not all the time. However, I would add, it is a very strange sensation when both are using good (used relatively) taijutsu.  The best word I can use to describe it is... "slippery", even on the ground.  Neither wants to give the other too much data.  It is fun though, but can be a sobering experience.

About the only thing that we don't use class time for, is stuff people can do on their own in their time.  Things like rolling, exercise, stretching and all that stuff.  Although, we do rolling from time to time to show new students, but don't spend alot of time on it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 9, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> About the only thing that we don't use class time for, is stuff people can do on their own in their time. Things like rolling, exercise, stretching and all that stuff. Although, we do rolling from time to time to show new students, but don't spend alot of time on it.



http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=286399&postcount=15

Also, I think you're making things sound way more simple than they actually are, in terms of grappling.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=286399&postcount=15


Interesting!  You have a regular syllabus worked out!  Our classes are 3 hours of paired training.  So our classes may just start off with "OK attack me!" and we go from there.  Then we will also have each person take turns attacking a student, and then after everyone has attacked, then switch out with someone until everyone has been attacked by everyone.  Usually it follows the theme of the night.  Sometimes we do this each time we change what we are working on.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Also, I think you're making things sound way more simple than they actually are, in terms of grappling.


Maybe...  But I believe it is true.  I am not saying I can do all that stuff, but I can certainly *see* it, making the body do it, is entirely different.  That is why we train.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 9, 2006)

My bad...I can't recall the last time I didn't go to a training session that didn't include at least 10-15 minutes of ukemi practice, but we'll take that elsewhere.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> My bad...I can't recall the last time I didn't go to a training session that didn't include at least 10-15 minutes of ukemi practice, but we'll take that elsewhere.



Dude, it isn't bad...   I certainly didn't mean anything negative by it.


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## Rook (Jan 27, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> One on one submission wrestling with no deliberate striking is probably one of the most physically demanding sparring drills


 
Now that is interesting.  You are very possibly the first person I have ever, and I mean _ever_, heard saying that with a straight face.


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## bydand (Jan 27, 2007)

Rook said:


> Now that is interesting.  You are very possibly the first person I have ever, and I mean _ever_, heard saying that with a straight face.



you dug this thread back up just to take a dig.  Man now I've seen it all.


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## Rook (Jan 27, 2007)

bydand said:


> you dug this thread back up just to take a dig. Man now I've seen it all.


 
I didn't dig it up.  Nimvarus linked to it in the other thread, and I commented on the part that stood out most to me.  I would be very interested in knowing why in his experiance grappling is more tiring that other components.  In my experiance and that of every person I have recalled talking to it has not been.  Even the first time I ever did submission grappling, it took me a much longer time to exhaust myself than sparring ever did.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 27, 2007)

Well, my experience is the total opposite. Though I'll also freely admit that part of it is self-inflicted, in that I've noticed unexperienced people are more likely to hold their breath while on the ground.


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## Rook (Jan 27, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> Well, my experience is the total opposite. Though I'll also freely admit that part of it is self-inflicted, in that I've noticed unexperienced people are more likely to hold their breath while on the ground.


 
I hadn't heard that before.  That could explain your experiance though.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 27, 2007)

Just don't try to tell me that that is the only reason. :flame:


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## Bigshadow (Jan 27, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> in that I've noticed unexperienced people are more likely to hold their breath while on the ground.



Yep, I agree, that happens alot in the beginning.


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## Rubber Tanto (Jan 28, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> Well, my experience is the total opposite. Though I'll also freely admit that part of it is self-inflicted, in that I've noticed unexperienced people are more likely to hold their breath while on the ground.


 
Yeah I'll have to agree with Nim on this one...the first time I tried my hand at groundfighting I gassed pretty quick as I held my breath every time I tried to force a move or get out of a certain situation. Its also because as an inexperienced newb up against a seasoned groundfighter, I struggled in places where I didn't need to and kept trying to rush things, when afterwards, I notice my training partner stayed quite calm, waiting for the right moments to move.


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## jks9199 (Jan 28, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> Well, my experience is the total opposite. Though I'll also freely admit that part of it is self-inflicted, in that I've noticed unexperienced people are more likely to hold their breath while on the ground.


I have to agree...  Wrestling has always been much more physically exhausting to me than any sort of stand-up sparring.  It doesn't necessarily leave you gasping for breath the same way -- but when you almost need someone to lift you off the ground afterwards, I've gotta call that pretty exhausting!  Stand-up sparring tends to be a heavily aerobic exercise, in my experience; wrestling/grappling tends to be more anearobic.  They're too different types of tiring!


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## bencole (Jan 29, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> As to the hip bridging... I would have said hip-bridging is in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (as Sensei is pretty relaxed on control of Budo Taijutsu - allowing freedom to change and add as necessary...). You can probably take the Kihon Happo and use the "henka" card to attach to practically ANY Martial Arts move... The question comes down to which of the 9 traditions did the "bridging" come from (and then is *your* version of bridging the historically accurate one?)?


 
I would argue back that whether "hip bridging" or "shrimping" or anything like that is "in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" has less to do with which tradition it supposedly comes from, and more to do with the *WAY* the body is used to accomplish it.

One can clearly do shrimping in ways that conflict with the teachings of Hatsumi-sensei, just as one can do shrimping in ways that mesh with them. 

(Heck, I would argue that Hatsumi-sensei has been doing movements at Ayase that some would label as "hip bridging" and "shrimping" since before the whole Gracie Jiu-jutsu boom took off. Again, what is important is the way in which the movement is performed.)

I personally make students do a kind of "shrimping" for several months so they can learn the proper way of rotating the hips, but this "shrimping" is definitely different from the stuff I've seen on groundfighters. 

I do this because the mechanics of shrimping can be used to isolate certain body parts, which, in turn, forces the student to learn certain movements in certain ways. I have used "Bujinkan shrimping methods" to teach students how to improve their power generation in striking, for example.... 

For some, the idea of using a "groundfighting move" to teach "standing striking" may sound strange. But if you spend time breaking down the skeletal movements, you will see that shrimping and striking are actually quite complementary to each other. 

This is why it is so important to know "what is Taijutsu" and "what is not Taijutsu" before you start experimenting with such things. Otherwise, you could create anti-Taijutsu habits that lead you *VERY* far from the BBT path. 

Once you get too far away, you literally will no longer be able to see what Hatsumi-sensei is doing.... And once that happens, it's really hard to get back on the path. You simply cannot see anything anymore!

-ben


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 29, 2007)

Ben,

One of these times when we finally hook up I would like to see in person what you are talking about here. (just to see if it meshes with what I am visualizing in my mind)


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## DWeidman (Jan 29, 2007)

bencole said:


> I do this because the mechanics of shrimping can be used to isolate certain body parts, which, in turn, forces the student to learn certain movements in certain ways. I have used "Bujinkan shrimping methods" to teach students how to improve their power generation in striking, for example....
> 
> For some, the idea of using a "groundfighting move" to teach "standing striking" may sound strange. But if you spend time breaking down the skeletal movements, you will see that shrimping and striking are actually quite complementary to each other.



I hope this isn't another slug fest here... but I have no idea what you are talking about.

Shrimping is akin to hip escape.  As a general rule -- you don't want to generate power by pulling your far side hip back...  (yes, I know there are times to do this... but they are the exception, not the rule).



bencole said:


> Once you get too far away, you literally will no longer be able to see what Hatsumi-sensei is doing.... And once that happens, it's really hard to get back on the path. You simply cannot see anything anymore!
> 
> -ben



Riiiight.  That is a quite the leap you made there...  

-DW


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## Seattletcj (Jan 30, 2007)

> I hope this isn't another slug fest here...









Dan are you ready?

Ben are you ready?


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## Rubber Tanto (Jan 30, 2007)

bencole said:


> Once you get too far away, you literally will no longer be able to see what Hatsumi-sensei is doing.... And once that happens, it's really hard to get back on the path. You simply cannot see anything anymore!
> 
> -ben






http://homepages.wmich.edu/~j1jasina/Obi-Wan_Kenobi_&_Luke_Skywalker.jpg

"What happened to my father?"
"When I met your father he was fast becoming a great bujinkan warrior...I took it upon myself to teach him the basic backwards shrimping drill...it was a disaster...he strayed to the dark path and walked all the way to a galaxy far far away...so far that he could no longer see what Hatsumi-sensei was doing..."
"I want to be a great bujinkan warrior...like my father before me..."
"Then do not resist your destiny...resistance leads to the dark path!"


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