# Wing Chun's Central  Concept



## KPM (Jan 3, 2021)




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## geezer (Jan 4, 2021)

Yeah. That's pretty much how I see it. 

...So are you still developing your WC-Boxing system?


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## KPM (Jan 4, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yeah. That's pretty much how I see it.
> 
> ...So are you still developing your WC-Boxing system?



I realized that I was just "reinventing the wheel"!  The work has already been done.....by Bruce Lee!!   JKD is essentially "Wing Chun Boxing."  JKD is Bruce Lee's combination of Wing Chun and Western Boxing (with a few other ideas thrown in) as his means of making Wing Chun work from longer ranges.  So I think that JKD is a perfect complement to Ip Man Wing Chun.   As I started with boxing.....added Wing Chun things into it....then streamlined it down to the bare essentials....it started looking more and more like JKD!  Not that I'm a genius or anything!  ;-)  I just now see the logic in what Bruce Lee was doing.   And I should caveat all of this by saying I am only referring to "original" JKD and what Bruce Lee himself was practicing.  I'm not including "JKD Concepts" here.

So, if I was going to "play" at longer range with sparring ..... I would use JKD.  I wouldn't try and force my Wing Chun into doing something for which it wasn't intended, and I wouldn't do some form of crappy kickboxing and call it "Wing Chun."  ;-)


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 4, 2021)

KPM said:


> I realized that I was just "reinventing the wheel


I always tell students to trust the technique



KPM said:


> I wouldn't try and force my Wing Chun into doing something for which it wasn't intended,


I always tell students to never force a technique.  Learn how it works and within which limitations.  Don't try to force it.

I went through a similar learning stage with Jow Ga.  For a while now my entire perception is.  If it doesn't work when I try to use it, then I'm either trying to force it, or I don't understand enough about it.   It's rarely "this stuff doesn't work". 99.9 percent of them time.  I'm the one trying to use it the wrong way.

If you "took the journey" and ended up with JKD then that pretty much say a lot about your understanding of it.  It's sort of like a math problem.  Someone tells you the answer and you knew enough to do the math and get the same result.


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## Callen (Jan 4, 2021)

In my opinion, the idea of range in Wing Chun is often misunderstood and can be a tricky topic of discussion. I particularly appreciate the "ambush vs squaring-up" comparison.


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## yak sao (Jan 4, 2021)

KPM said:


> I realized that I was just "reinventing the wheel"!  The work has already been done.....by Bruce Lee!!   JKD is essentially "Wing Chun Boxing."  JKD is Bruce Lee's combination of Wing Chun and Western Boxing (with a few other ideas thrown in) as his means of making Wing Chun work from longer ranges.  So I think that JKD is a perfect complement to Ip Man Wing Chun.   As I started with boxing.....added Wing Chun things into it....then streamlined it down to the bare essentials....it started looking more and more like JKD!  Not that I'm a genius or anything!  ;-)  I just now see the logic in what Bruce Lee was doing.   And I should caveat all of this by saying I am only referring to "original" JKD and what Bruce Lee himself was practicing.  I'm not including "JKD Concepts" here.
> 
> So, if I was going to "play" at longer range with sparring ..... I would use JKD.  I wouldn't try and force my Wing Chun into doing something for which it wasn't intended, and I wouldn't do some form of crappy kickboxing and call it "Wing Chun."  ;-)



I had pretty much came to the same conclusion.

Do you have any good JKD sources you'd recommend for supplemental training?


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## KPM (Jan 4, 2021)

yak sao said:


> I had pretty much came to the same conclusion.
> 
> Do you have any good JKD sources you'd recommend for supplemental training?



Jason Korol has great materials.  He is a Ted Wong student and excellent Wing Chun guy.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JKDandWingChun

Greenville Academy of Martial Arts

Amazon.com : jason korol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 4, 2021)

KPM said:


> Wing Chun Boxing.


The difference between CMA (such as WC) and boxing is very small.

1. Boxing approach - You throw a jab, your opponent blocks it. You then throw a cross (or hook) to attack the new opening. This approach is faster.

2. CMA approach - You throw a jab, your opponent blocks it. You change your punch into a "grab followed by a pull". You then throw a cross (or hook) to attack the new opening. This approach give you more control over your opponent's arm.

Because the boxing gloves, the grab and pull can be difficult to do. The main concern is without the "grab and pull", the striking art is difficult to be integrated with the throwing art. For those who only care about the striking art, "grab and pull" may not be that important to them.



KPM said:


> JKD is Bruce Lee's combination of Wing Chun and Western Boxing ...


I don't think JKD has fully integrated "grab and pull" into boxing yet.


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## geezer (Jan 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The difference between CMA (such as WC) and boxing is very small   ...I don't think JKD has fully integrated "grab and pull" into boxing yet.



Wing Chun has a fair amount of grabbing or lap sau used to control, tie up and create openings, but there may be less pulling-in than some other CMA. Forward pressure is heavily stressed. Still, lap sau with a pivot can jerk an opponent right off balance. I would think that a some of this carried over into JKD?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 5, 2021)

geezer said:


> Wing Chun has a fair amount of grabbing or lap sau used to control, tie up and create openings, but there may be less pulling-in than some other CMA.


To change a punch into grab and pull can be seen in this clip. Since boxers don't do this. IMO, this is the main difference between boxing and CMA.


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## KPM (Jan 5, 2021)

That's fine John.  But that's not really the topic of this thread and has nothing to do with the OP.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 5, 2021)

KPM said:


> That's fine John.  But that's not really the topic of this thread and has nothing to do with the OP.





KPM said:


> I realized that I was just "reinventing the wheel"!  The work has already been done.....by Bruce Lee!!   JKD is essentially "Wing Chun Boxing."


Are we talking about WC-boxing here? Anybody who tries to integrate boxing with CMA (such as WC) will have to deal with this issue:

When your arm contact with your opponent's arm, should you grab and pull or not? If you

- don't, that's boxing approach.
- do, that's CMA (or WC) approach.

So after the integration, which approach will you take?

When we train the striking art, do we always assume that we have boxing gloves on so grab and pull are difficult, or do we always assume that we train without boxing gloves that grab and pull are available?

In other words, should we bring the boxing gloves limitation into the CMA training?


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## KPM (Jan 6, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are we talking about WC-boxing here? Anybody who tries to integrate boxing with CMA (such as WC) will have to deal with this issue:
> 
> When your arm contact with your opponent's arm, should you grab and pull or not? If you
> 
> ...



Good point!  So, from that perspective, JKD is a Wing Chun approach because in JKD there is still the use of Lop Sau as well as trapping.


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## hunschuld (Jan 6, 2021)

Several things I disagree with but I will keep things brief.

Your legal advice such as it is is bad. As a lawyer and former public defender I can safely say the person throwing the first punch is the person most likely in trouble also you much be concerned about civil issues. So you do not Ambush which is also another name for cheap shot.I do not think Yip Man WC can only be effective if it relies on cheap shots

Since your focus is YMWC only. The question has to be asked which versions? There are several.

The YMWC I am familiar with does not rely on square facing alone.

The second form is about bridging which means that you are starting from an outside  non contact distance.

Since you have ended up at JKD then have you disregarded half the system?  Bruce was at Chum Kui Level knowledge. The pole and knives are as much empty hand forms holding weapons as they are weapon forms.

You seem to be taking a position that sticky hands is the only thing since you discard sparring and getting in a ring. IMO until you spar on a regular basis with non WC people you can never learn WC. This also how the early WC people approached WC hence the mischaracterized stories of people having 300 fights and other such stuff. Friendly sparring for the purpose of learning is not a fight. YM had the same opinion according to the student of YBC that I met .

Personally long before I ever learned non YMWC I sparred against several boxers . My WC seemed to work fine without resorting to bad kick boxing ( when sparring boxers I never used kicks. Wouldn't be fair)

Saying YMWC was designed only for some type of limited self defense is just so ---. All martial arts we designed to fight. Hence all designed to defend your self. All WC is based on concepts not hard fast only one way to do something rules. The fact that people in WC seemed to have wars about who is right and who is wrong thus changing concepts into I am right rules doesn't mean the concepts stopped existing..


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## wckf92 (Jan 6, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> The pole and knives are as much empty hand forms holding weapons as they are weapon forms.




Heck yeah!


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## drop bear (Jan 6, 2021)

Ok. My boxing coach drives this idea in to us a bit.

"Win the entry. Win the exit."

If you want a short range aggressive system of fighting to work. You will absolutely need to achieve those two things.

Rather than say hope you will start from range and finishing with the other guy incapacitated.

There are physical skills many people do not possess that are required to win a meat grinder fight. Which is why we use martial arts to offset that.

So fighting is fighting. If you are only employing some of the skills needed to win fights. Then you will be at a disadvantage. 

You really should have the tools to move from outside range to in range to out of range again. 

And if you get caught or can catch some out. Then you start somewhere in the middle of that sequence.

If you punch the guy and he starts crying then you stop somewhere in that sequence. 

But not having that whole range of movement will cost you.


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## Jens (Jan 6, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> You seem to be taking a position that sticky hands is the only thing since you discard sparring and getting in a ring. IMO until you spar on a regular basis with non WC people you can never learn WC. This also how the early WC people approached WC hence the mischaracterized stories of people having 300 fights and other such stuff. Friendly sparring for the purpose of learning is not a fight. YM had the same opinion according to the student of YBC that I met.



Can you share some of the other stories that the student of YBC shared with you, we know very little of his linage


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## hunschuld (Jan 6, 2021)

Jens said:


> Can you share some of the other stories that the student of YBC shared with you, we know very little of his linage



 Yip Bo Ching is not a lineage. YM told him that teaching would help get more incite into the system. Everyone is different so you can expand your knowledge by answering students questions and adopting the system to fit their physical and mental abilities so YBC taught 5 or 6 friends as a way to expand his own understanding.I was asked not to repeat most of the things I was told. This was because he did not want to get involved in the WC infighting or make people he knew look bad by blowing up some of their YM claims. 

I have told some stories over the years but they are just stories who knows if they are accurate .I learned these things 20 years ago so I cant say my memory is 100% accurate either.. Also I don't want to get involved in someone claiming I am lying etc.


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## Jens (Jan 6, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> when my range is reached I attack I do not wait to see what the other person is going to do. As a WC person and being old and slow that range is punching range.



How do you define punching range?

Once your range is reached, do you initially engage by stepping forward with a mun sau to create a bridge?


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## wckf92 (Jan 6, 2021)

Jens said:


> How do you define punching range?
> 
> Once your range is reached, do you initially engage by stepping forward with a mun sau to create a bridge?



A mun sau can be a punch...so maybe that is what @hunschuld is saying.


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## hunschuld (Jan 7, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> A mun sau can be a punch...so maybe that is what @hunschuld is saying.



Yup!


Jens said:


> How do you define punching range?
> 
> Once your range is reached, do you initially engage by stepping forward with a mun sau to create a bridge?


 

Technically 2 punching range issues however experience boils it down to one. The two are when can I hit him and when can he hit me. In essence when I am in a range that I can hit him with stepping in..

For example Lets say I am left side forward and think that I can step in and hit with a jab, pole punch for those about to scream WC doesn't have a jab,  I am trying to hit but I expect he will block intercept because of the distance so I punch but am also asking for his hand. Since I have trained for this the instant contact is made I move on to what to do next.


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## Jens (Jan 7, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> In essence when I am in a range that I can hit him with stepping in.



1.In regards to “you are in a range that you can hit him with stepping in” Is this the range of taking one arrow step in with your lead leg? or a range where you need to take a larger step in with your rear leg to be able to hit him?

2. When at this range if neither of you don’t take a step in, would this range be considered kicking range?

3. Is your application of the above the same as in this WSL quote? “Do not launch an attack until there's a distance of one step between you and your enemy.” Wong Sheung Leung


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## hunschuld (Jan 7, 2021)

Not familiar with the WSL quote but sounds like a similar thing. I don't have any real WSL experience to go by.

yes, kicking range comes before punching range 

How you step and how you gauge your sticking distance is personal to you. The optimum distance is when you feel you can land a powerful punch. I don't want to miss or just graze I want it to be something real


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## Jens (Jan 7, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> yes, kicking range comes before punching range



So if I understand this correctly,  Once your kicking range is reached, you step in to your punching range?


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## Callen (Jan 7, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> Technically 2 punching range issues however experience boils it down to one. The two are when can I hit him and when can he hit me. In essence when I am in a range that I can hit him with stepping in..
> 
> For example Lets say I am left side forward and think that I can step in and hit with a jab, pole punch for those about to scream WC doesn't have a jab, I am trying to hit but I expect he will block intercept because of the distance so I punch but am also asking for his hand. Since I have trained for this the instant contact is made I move on to what to do next.


Just to clarify, are you saying your goal is to establish contact (a bridge), so you can "move on to what to do next"?


Jens said:


> 3. Is your application of the above the same as in this WSL quote? “Do not launch an attack until there's a distance of one step between you and your enemy.” Wong Sheung Leung


No, it is not the same. In that quote, WSL is referring to controlling distance and the efficacy of an attack. In WSLVT, the idea of range is not over-emphasized, and contact is also not a prerequisite for hitting.


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## Danny T (Jan 7, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> The pole and knives are as much empty hand forms holding weapons as they are weapon forms.


^^^^^^^^^ THIS!
Most of what is taught in Pole and knives in WC is not just for pole and knives but empty hands as well.  It just isn't taught until then and is utilize within everything you should have learned in other parts of the system.


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## hunschuld (Jan 7, 2021)

Jens said:


> So if I understand this correctly,  Once your kicking range is reached, you step in to your punching range?


No, what I mean is I am 61 so at this stage I am not going to launch a kick even if I am in the range to do so. However a 25 yr old TKD black belt will send one extremely fast so I have to be aware when I am in a range that that can happen. The goal is not to brush or graze when I strike but to hit with power so I have to punch with my legs and lower body behind the punch so I will attack when I can step in and punch so I can make contact before my elbow has extended. I don't reach for my opponent


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## hunschuld (Jan 7, 2021)

Callen said:


> Just to clarify, are you saying your goal is to establish contact (a bridge), so you can "move on to what to do next"?
> 
> No, I am saying my reflexes will react if contact is made. Not every punch lands people move ,block ,just throw their hands up etc.When someone gives you energy you can take that energy but in a  fight you do not have time to think what to do next. If you punch and you get pak'ed from the outside to the inside you must answer that reflexively. You can not think about what you should do .However you cant get caught up so you must have both hands trained so one is always attacking. On youtube when of the biggest fighting/sparring issues I see is the pause between action or 1,1,1,1.
> 
> The best bridge is my hand to his face but life is seldom that easy.


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## Jens (Jan 8, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> so I have to punch with my legs and lower body behind the punch so I will attack when I can step in and punch so I can make contact before my elbow has extended. I don't reach for my opponent



so in addition to closing into punching range, it’s your “step in” which adds power from your legs and lower body by transferring your body mass forward behind your punch. So that you make contact before your elbow has extended, so that your punch can penetrate deeper into the target upon elbow extension?


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## drop bear (Jan 8, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> Not familiar with the WSL quote but sounds like a similar thing. I don't have any real WSL experience to go by.
> 
> yes, kicking range comes before punching range
> 
> How you step and how you gauge your sticking distance is personal to you. The optimum distance is when you feel you can land a powerful punch. I don't want to miss or just graze I want it to be something real



Do you counter punch though?

Because then you could be out of range drawing the guy in and force him to make that step.

Which if you can catch the guy is about as hard as you can hit someone.


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