# Destructions



## Cthulhu (Oct 13, 2001)

What's this?  An FMA post that is NOT about the Modern Arnis issue?  How odd  

Anybody have any good resources/advice/tips for training Kali destructions?  I really like the concept of them and I'm interested in experiementing with them to see if I want to incorporate them into my training.

Cthulhu
  having an out of body experience with his GI tract.  Ugh.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Oct 15, 2001)

The easiest destruction you can do is a shield. Find the target on your own body that your partner is attacking and at the last minute place your elbow in the way. Your partner will probably hurt his hand so make sure they have good gloves. 

Another one you can try is to parry an in coming straight punch with your rear hand and back fist thier arm with your lead.

Have Fun

:asian: :cheers: 

Want More Smiles!!!


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 15, 2001)

Wouldn't that hurt your own elbow?  or do I misunderstand the placement?

More smilies?    go here http://forums.rustaz.com/misc.php?action=showsmilies  and let me know in a PM which ones y'all like.

Or start a smilies wanted thread in the LockerRoom.  (better idead there)


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## Cthulhu (Oct 16, 2001)

Thanks a bunch, Renegade!  I've also seen a destruction drill for a jab/cross combo.  Basically, the jab is parried or slipped and the cross is guided into your elbow as the elbow is raised.  

The one you mentioned where you back fist their arm after parrying their punch sounds similar to a ninjutsu technique, except they step back out of the way and then backfist the nerve group on the forearm or the muscle of the bicep.

Cthulhu


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Oct 16, 2001)

When you get good at it put  knife in the stiking hand. Hold it back in the icepick position. Your partner will get the point!:cheers:


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## Mao (Oct 16, 2001)

Hey Gatorade,
  What is STIKING hand? Are you all goomed up again?:armed:

p.s.
 play through anytime...............


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## Cthulhu (Oct 16, 2001)

Bad...pun...killing me...greatest...martial art...techinque...of...all...time...

<gasp>

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD (Nov 7, 2001)

Some of my favorites are the siko where you allow the opponents fist to run into your elbow. works best with an improved Thai hand placement with elbows in front of the body held high. keeps from shooting in and also alows for the destruction. another is the gunting "scissors" example in left lead parry the right cross with your left hand while punching their bicep with your right. this is taken from kali. the knife but works well with a punch.  train with a slap however as it will get old if you hit. this is a .50 cent fan (you have to move your head)   

Jim


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## IFAJKD (Nov 7, 2001)

Regarding the siko....if you don't parry their fist into your elbow, but allow their fist to hit due to your good hand and arm positioning you will be more effiencient to counter.. Guard has to adapt...you can't have a boxers guard/stance or a karate mans or a Thai's or yada yada yada...it must be a combination of all these things. Hands in motion are ten times faster than hands in a static guard. I have found this works best for destructions. 
Remember that destructions are typically not fight enders.. although it can be,... nore often they open a window, if you will, that allows you to apply pressure and terminate the altercation with major tools(HKE) , locks and/or chokes. 

Destruction is the entry...
Jim


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## Cthulhu (Nov 7, 2001)

Yeah, I don't look at destructions as a means to end a fight, but they can certainly take the fight out of the opponent.  I think they are a good psychological weapon as well.  Imagine how demoralizing it must be to break your hand on a punch that you were sure was going to take the other guy's head off.

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD (Nov 7, 2001)

it certainly isn't something that most look for........


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## Cthulhu (Nov 7, 2001)

Sort of a parallel...

Simply grabbing an untrained person's wrist can, in Okinawa-te terms, 'break their mind'.  They become so concerned that you've got their arm, that all thought of attack is lost and they just want to get away or are too busy fending off the attacks by your free limbs.  I think this is the primary reason why trapping works on people unfamiliar with it.  Instead of 'working the problem', their brain locks up and they turn into a punching bag.

I think that's one thing we've yet to really touch on in this board, is the psychological aspects of fighting; tactics, consequences, etc.

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD (Nov 8, 2001)

I am not sure that grabbing the wrist would in reality have that affect in a real situation... Have you tried it with success ? I believe that fighting is very basic..Train for Bill Goldberg on PCP.
I believe in the fact that most fight last a very short while....Boom Boom and over...that most are uncomitted. and the ones who are are a real handful...Ever grab a 17 year old kid that is determined to harm you...Try to control them...I do this almost weekly with adults in an envrionment where most of the time we can't harm them..again, a handful....The psychological aspects of fighting I think are important to say the least...I guess I believe them to be more important inside us...What are our fears, motivators, weak areas, what lines do we draw. What do we avoid etc...I think it's basic but I have heard many myths being propagated by Instructors that haven't fought or tested what they have said. what do ya think?


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## Cthulhu (Nov 8, 2001)

I'm sorry, I should have clarified...I meant grabbing the wrist while sparring.  Doesn't work for everybody, but I've found it usually works on beginners.

It is true that many instructors have not been in actual street fights.  Some are realistic and know from common sense if some techniques are effective or not in real life.  Others just teach what they've been taught, ignorant of what can actually happen when the fur flies for real.  You get that in all walks of life, though...people who are real good at the theory, but have never applied it.

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD (Nov 9, 2001)

You know I really think MA is about combat first and foremost. From there a byproduct if you will becomes spirituality. I guess at some point fighting and the consequenses are really no longer a fear and peace can set in. Like ingredients in a pie....you have to have them all to have the pie but there are many pies. 
:asian: 

I really have no clue where that came from.
must be hungry
bye


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## Cthulhu (Nov 9, 2001)

That's what I think is the difference between bujutsu and budo.  Bujutsu are combat arts, first and foremost, primarily designed for the battlefield.  Personal and spiritual development are a sort of byproduct to the physical training.

Budo use physical training to conciously develop the individual.  The ability to defend oneself can be a byproduct of budo.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Nov 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Budo use physical training to conciously develop the individual.  The ability to defend oneself can be a byproduct of budo.
> *



Well said, and I agree. I would allow for a generous interpretation of 'budo' here, that is, in non-Japanese arts there may well be similar distinctions.

I entered the martial arts for self-defense and that was a key requirement for me for some time but that doesn't sustain me after all these years. I am rarely in the way of harm now (where a knowledge of self-defense would help me). The development of character and the other enjoyable aspects of it become more important--one can appreciate the martial arts in the same way one would appreciate ballet (think WuShu). I am still concerned with practicality and self-defense but I don't live in a war zone and don't intend to live as though I do. For those who prefer the continual focus on updating the arts to apply to current situations, I say that's great and again I remain conscious of this. But John Adams said "I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain." I concentrated on self-defense when younger but now I'm ready for some porcelain. Constantly preparing for a possible mugging just doesn't keep me going nowadays.


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## arnisador (Nov 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I'm sorry, I should have clarified...I meant grabbing the wrist while sparring.  Doesn't work for everybody, but I've found it usually works on beginners.*



Similarly, if someone unused to using the stick is fighting with it and it's grabbed they will often focus on regaining sole control of it, which may or may not be the best approach (as compared to using it to effectuate a lock or striking the now close-in opponent with the free hand first).

The psychological component is very important--you have to always be thinking of it, I feel.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 9, 2001)

Bruce Lee once said that when a person (I'm assuming untrained) comes at you with a knife, his mind only allows him that one weapon.  However, a trained fighter has hands, feet, elbows, knees, etc.

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD (Nov 9, 2001)

true and in that sense they have blocked out all else. In a seminar in Calif. a DEA agent spoke of a situation where another agent was in a hand to hand struggle with a suspect. the agent threw a great knee at the groin of the suspect while he was against the wall. the suspect didn't flinch but instead went for the agents gun and they began to fight. a scuffle that lasted I am not sure how long ended with the suspect on the ground mounted on the agent and the agent pulling his weapon firing and hearing a click. The agent then chambered easily as the slide was being held by the suspect and all he had to do was pull the gun back. he then shot and killed him. Throughout all of this not one punch or kick was thrown. That suspect saw a gun and had one agenda...to get it. 

Interesting how the mind works.


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## Icepick (Nov 9, 2001)

Do you guys routinely pull off destructions sparring?  I understand that it isn't illegal to do in boxing, but I've never seen it done.  Is that the size of the gloves, skill of the boxers, or something else that prevents this?  Just wondering your experience.


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## IFAJKD (Nov 9, 2001)

destructions to hands can happen while gloved but as a rule not. It is accepted that this is the case. if you get the siko you get it from there straight blast yada yada yada....Destructions,  and intercepts are trained easily however. progressive and with flow


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## Cthulhu (Nov 9, 2001)

As for the DEA story goes, I think a big part of that is the drilling of weapon retention most law enforcement officers (LEO) get.  It is a very VERY bad thing if a LEO gets his/her weapon taken by a perp.  

One of the smartest things I've heard regarding LEOs and their firearms is that they have to be aware that where ever they go, there is always at least one firearm on the scene that could be a danger to them - their own.

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD (Nov 9, 2001)

weapon retention is one aspect. The other is how it all happened and the lack of anyother plan of attack or goal by the perp. If someone pulls a weapon at work they are  committed to that weapon. to the point of not being able to do anything else.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 9, 2001)

Okay, I'm gonna steer this back on topic 

I'm going to ask the obvious with this: when using destruction when sparring, you HAVE to have adequate padding, yes?  If not, then you won't be sparring for very long.  

I don't know if the usual dipped mitts have enough padding.  I have a pair of those fingered gloves (called either kempo or JKD gloves, depending on where you get them...you know, the gloves from the beginning of 'Enter the Dragon') and they have much more padding than the usual sparring mitts.  They're a bit heavier, but I accept that as resistance training 

Cthulhu


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## IFAJKD (Nov 9, 2001)

Kempo gloves will work but watch the fingers. You really need boxing gloves. Now be sure that you don't go after the punch with an elbow but allow your guard to let them punch into it. use lead elbow. from there upper body destructions are in the trapping range and work the wrist and biceps, shoulder, elbows etc. check out the trapping tape and you will see what I mean.


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## thekuntawman (Feb 24, 2002)

against a punch we try to block (or hit the elbow with your hand) from the outside going up at a angle. there is no catching in this, just to slant your body away while you slap the elbow or above the elbow, its hard to describe it. but the force of your slap with over extend his elbow if you do it right before he brings back his arm, right when he has full extension. 

you go to an angle up just in case his arm does not lock when he punch, your slap will force his elbow to lock. anyway you have to practice this while you box, and your partner is really trying to hit you so that you can understand how to use this technique.

i dont like the catch, because you will probably never met a guy who is slow enough for you to catch his hand with both of yours.

against a leg its easier because you will have more time to prepare, and your hands are faster than the legs in kicking anyway. with the legs you can go inside or outside, but you have to use a downward angle or a line that is level with the floor. you can catch a leg, so that techniques will work against a kick too.


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## Tapps (Feb 25, 2002)

I've found most destructions tough to pull off in sparring situations.

Some friends and I have put on gloves and tried to do destructions on each other. They are tough to do full speed even if you know what's coming.

The two Renegade listed seem to be the most practical , to me.

I think they are a situational technique; meaning if you find yourself at a reference point you can pull it off but I don't think you can (safely) go into a fight thinking "I'm gonna do destruction xyz.

":soapbox: :soapbox: :argue:  :cuss: :fart: 

Can't get enough of them smiley thingies:jedi1: :xwing: :jediduel:


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## IFAJKD (Feb 25, 2002)

I have to add some things here. First, Destructions have to be used in the way they are intended. They are often misunderstood or misrepresented. They are simply an opening, a window if you will that dishes out pain mostly. This allows several things to happen to follow up. 
As with anything there are small but crucial things to do to pull it off and you CAN pull it off at will. They are not tough to get at all and the % will increase with proper instruction and proper training.


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## Tapps (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *I have to add some things here. First, Destructions have to be used in the way they are intended. They are often misunderstood or misrepresented. They are simply an opening, a window if you will that dishes out pain mostly. This allows several things to happen to follow up.
> As with anything there are small but crucial things to do to pull it off and you CAN pull it off at will. They are not tough to get at all and the % will increase with proper instruction and proper training. *



Can you expand on this ?

I'm intregued


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## Tapps (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> *As with anything there are small but crucial things to do to pull it off and you CAN pull it off at will. They are not tough to get at all and the % will increase with proper instruction and proper training. *




Can you expand on this ?

I'm intrigued.

:ultracool :ubercool: :idunno: :viking2: :supcool: :drink2tha


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## IFAJKD (Feb 28, 2002)

Hey, I'll try. Destructions are sometimes thought to be an "ending" to an altercation. Or used in such a way that the attacker's weapon (ie their hand from a jab) is no longer functional. These kinds of definitive destructions are rare and VERY unusual.  Rather, destructions are simply a tear in the fabric of time in that fight where you can enter more safely to end things. An example of this may be....They throw a straight punch (SP, Cross or jab) and we siko or elbow it. In essence let it run into our elbow. This moment of pain and this interception allows a small window that we follow with tremendous amount of pressure, (ie straight blast or ABC) Attack By Combination. Think of this as in FMA this is the proverbial kitchen sink. everything is thrown that they are overwhelmed and off balance and unable to counter attack. In JKD it's an 50 MPH blast down their centerline. From there it's HKE. Major tools. Fight enders. 
Destructions can be against anything not just their attacking weapons, It can be intercepts, stop hits half beat attacks etc, The form of eye jabs shuffle kicks, shoulder stops etc. The key is such a total way of training that incorporates everything into this one area. How we move, how we train, how we hold our guard, where we place our guard JKD 5 ways of attack, JKD premis and FMA technique as well, It includes weapons training and drills from Panantuken, Panajakman. If done correctly they are easily pulled off. Of course it is always dependent on your opponent and how well they fight, This said, we have to have more tools and be much more adaptable. This is why we weapons spar from many different combinations of weapons and go from there to empty hands to the ground etc.
Hope this helps


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## Tapps (Mar 1, 2002)

Thanks !  

Sound similar to the way we try to train it.

Can you reccomend any resources ???? 

Books drills websites ?

Thanks for letting me pick your brain.


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## IFAJKD (Mar 1, 2002)

I have trained in several other JKD system/approaches I should say and have to say that no one has it like I have seen with Paul Vunak. I highly reccomend his Rapid Assault Tactics tape RAT. for training in destructions.


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## Tapps (Mar 4, 2002)

Thanks !!!


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