# We need a kick in the pants!!!



## yak sao (Apr 30, 2019)

What's happened to our forum here guys?
Nobody's posting. Is it because we've said all there is to say about our art?
Or are we tired of going over the same things again and again?

I've noticed we have some new blood here and they're bringing up some decent topics. Maybe not so new to many of us, but I think we need to engage the new guys and share some insights. It just might help them along in their journey and it may reignite a spark in us and remind us why we've dedicated so much of ourselves to our training.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 30, 2019)

Do you kick the pants in wing chun? I don't think I've ever seen that tactical maneuver in chi sao.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 30, 2019)

yak sao said:


> What's happened to our forum here guys?
> Nobody's posting. Is it because we've said all there is to say about our art?
> Or are we tired of going over the same things again and again?
> 
> I've noticed we have some new blood here and they're bringing up some decent topics. Maybe not so new to many of us, but I think we need to engage the new guys and share some insights. It just might help them along in their journey and it may reignite a spark in us and remind us why we've dedicated so much of ourselves to our training.



Sadly it is pretty much forum wide


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 30, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sadly it is pretty much forum wide


Yup. There's still new posts, but I've found more people fade away from the forum, and while new people come, they don't seem to be sticking around. The people that are stuck generally don't have as many topics to bring up since, if we had new topics, we would have brought them up already.  The few exceptions are people like @skribs who always seems to find new topics.


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## skribs (May 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. There's still new posts, but I've found more people fade away from the forum, and while new people come, they don't seem to be sticking around. The people that are stuck generally don't have as many topics to bring up since, if we had new topics, we would have brought them up already.  The few exceptions are people like @skribs who always seems to find new topics.



I do, but not much in Wing Chun.

And I spend half the thread arguing with people over whether the new topic is even worth discussing or if the fact I even ask the question means I'm not enlightened enough to discuss it.


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## Eric_H (May 1, 2019)

Can only speak for myself. I don't get much from forums, never have. For a while it was more about representing my style since we're such a small clan with some interesting stuff, but the long and short of it is that my teacher doesn't want us to promote online anymore. Some jerk in Turkey took a lot of our photos etc to act like he was our rep in Europe, and that was pretty much it.

With nothing to share, I've got little to talk about *shrug*


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sadly it is pretty much forum wide


Yeah, we've hit a distinct quiet spell. Mostly the same folks posting every week, and most of us have had our debates that are going to generate real discussion.


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## Martial D (May 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you kick the pants in wing chun? I don't think I've ever seen that tactical maneuver in chi sao.


In WC, all kicks are to the pants.


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## Martial D (May 1, 2019)

yak sao said:


> What's happened to our forum here guys?
> Nobody's posting. Is it because we've said all there is to say about our art?
> Or are we tired of going over the same things again and again?
> 
> I've noticed we have some new blood here and they're bringing up some decent topics. Maybe not so new to many of us, but I think we need to engage the new guys and share some insights. It just might help them along in their journey and it may reignite a spark in us and remind us why we've dedicated so much of ourselves to our training.


Personally, I don't have a lot to say on the subject anymore. It's been a long slow process of disenchantment.

MMA training has forced me to supplant most of what I learned over 25 years with more functional techniques.

I wouldn't say any of it was wasted training, but it's certainly not the route I would take knowing what I know now, for my specific goals.


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## Xue Sheng (May 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. There's still new posts, but I've found more people fade away from the forum, and while new people come, they don't seem to be sticking around. The people that are stuck generally don't have as many topics to bring up since, if we had new topics, we would have brought them up already.  The few exceptions are people like @skribs who always seems to find new topics.





gpseymour said:


> Yeah, we've hit a distinct quiet spell. Mostly the same folks posting every week, and most of us have had our debates that are going to generate real discussion.



I have seen a lot of posters vanish over the years and the post counts have been going down for a long time. But this is not just MT, it has happened on just about every martial arts forum that I know. And many of those are now gone.

I post a lot less as well. Not even posting in my Blog much these days. I start writing something for the Blog or I start posting in a thread or starting a new topic and something seems to pop into my head that says why bother.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 1, 2019)

I honestly keep forgetting this exists and mainly mill about in the general area.   Not that i do wing chun or anything, but most of my propositions etc go in general unless citing a specific style.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 1, 2019)

My instinct is that people are just using forums less, but reddit is something like in the top 20 most popular sites in the world, and i think top 10 in the US. And thats all forum.


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## yak sao (May 1, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Personally, I don't have a lot to say on the subject anymore. It's been a long slow process of disenchantment.
> 
> MMA training has forced me to supplant most of what I learned over 25 years with more functional techniques.
> 
> I wouldn't say any of it was wasted training, but it's certainly not the route I would take knowing what I know now, for my specific goals.



That perspective is worth bringing to the table.


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## yak sao (May 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> My instinct is that people are just using forums less, but reddit is something like in the top 20 most popular sites in the world, and i think top 10 in the US. And thats all forum.



Yeah, it kind of strikes me as a FB/forum combo.
Maybe we need to use their approach? I don't get there much, but it seems to have more videos that they use to prompt disscusion


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> My instinct is that people are just using forums less, but reddit is something like in the top 20 most popular sites in the world, and i think top 10 in the US. And thats all forum.


I think Reddit, plus things like the groups in LinkedIn, have drained a lot of users. It's easier to have all your forums under an umbrella.

EDIT: Plus the level of marketing Reddit and LinkedIn put forth.


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## Xue Sheng (May 1, 2019)

But I don't DO Reddit or LinkedIn


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 1, 2019)

I use reddit, as a secondary forum site. If this place was more popular I'd use it a lot less. Not a huge fan of those giant sites where you don't know each other, and no idea of the context or background of where the other person is coming from. And more of a focus on jokes to get upvotes then actual discussion.


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## Buka (May 1, 2019)

I have just kicked myself in the pants.

Thankfully, I kept my hands up while doing it.


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## geezer (May 1, 2019)

Personally, I haven't had as much to contribute lately either. I don't know what it is, but it's like I've been losing the faith. That long slow process of disenchantment.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2019)

geezer said:


> Personally, I haven't had as much to contribute lately either. I don't know what it is, but it's like I've been losing the faith. That long slow process of disenchantment.


I went through some of that with my old approach to NGA, geezer. I started posting more after I wrrapped my head around the changes I wanted to make - how I wanted to teach NGA differently from what I'd experienced.


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## yak sao (May 1, 2019)

geezer said:


> Personally, I haven't had as much to contribute lately either. I don't know what it is, but it's like I've been losing the faith. That long slow process of disenchantment.



You have a classic case of organizationitis. I had a near terminal case of it myself some years back that almost drove me out of MA in general and WT in particular.

The cure for me was to set out on my own and get back to the original reason I got into MA in the  first place.
You've been at this a long time, do you really need ( or want) some grand poobah telling you how to do this stuff?


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## Callen (May 1, 2019)

geezer said:


> Personally, I haven't had as much to contribute lately either. I don't know what it is, but it's like I've been losing the faith. That long slow process of disenchantment.


There's so much good Wing Chun out there! If you're feeling stuck, maybe you could train with some new Wing Chun folks and discover different methods and interpretations. All-lineage workshops and training in new places are pretty awesome as well.


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## ShortBridge (May 2, 2019)

It's hard to discuss traditional martial arts on-line without fans of UFC via YouTube talking over you about how stupid what you do is and demanding proof (via YouTube) that what you do is worth while. 

Or sometimes someone who maybe doesn't see themselves as a troll taking over the conversation to say that it's necessary to combine your traditional system with some modern system or method and posting videos of someone who clearly doesn't do what you do as proof. 

Give me a dedicated Wing Chun forum and moderate out the haters and maybe it would go differently.

I can't imaging trolling a forum dedicated to some system that I don't know to tell those people that what they do is wrong. Or a CrossFit forum and jumping into every topic to talk about playing the saxophone. But that's what it feels like to try to connect with other Wing Chun players and talk about what we do on-line.


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## skribs (May 2, 2019)

I post on both Reddit and here.  I'm on the r/Taekwondo subreddit, there isn't much more activity there than there is here.  What there is more of over there is casual posts about Taekwondo.

Here, you'll get discussions on what the art was and where it's going.  There you'll get "am I doing this form correctly" or "can you tell me if this is a good dojang?"

What I really think is drawing people away is YouTube and other similar media.  Why read when you can watch a video?  Why discuss in a forum when you can just comment "TKD is dumb" or "your moves suck, train harder" on a YouTube video?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 2, 2019)

skribs said:


> I post on both Reddit and here.  I'm on the r/Taekwondo subreddit, there isn't much more activity there than there is here.  What there is more of over there is casual posts about Taekwondo.
> 
> Here, you'll get discussions on what the art was and where it's going.  There you'll get "am I doing this form correctly" or "can you tell me if this is a good dojang?"
> 
> What I really think is drawing people away is YouTube and other similar media.  Why read when you can watch a video?  Why discuss in a forum when you can just comment "TKD is dumb" or "your moves suck, train harder" on a YouTube video?


Normally my dilemma is agree/like/useful/informative. This is the first time I'm debating between clicking agree and dislike. forum and actually discussing things is so much better than commenting on a video or gif. sadly, not a lot of people care.


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## skribs (May 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Normally my dilemma is agree/like/useful/informative. This is the first time I'm debating between clicking agree and dislike. forum and actually discussing things is so much better than commenting on a video or gif. sadly, not a lot of people care.



I'm not saying that's what it should be, just that's where society is going.  Watching > reading.

I fall victim to that.  I'd rather watch a movie than read a book.


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## yak sao (May 2, 2019)

skribs said:


> .... I'd rather watch a movie than read a book.



just read a book with lots of pictures.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm not saying that's what it should be, just that's where society is going.  Watching > reading.
> 
> I fall victim to that.  I'd rather watch a movie than read a book.


I find myself listening to books far more than reading them these days. It's not doing good things for my ability to focus, though, so I'm working my way back to reading (at one time, I was reading a book every week or two).


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## skribs (May 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I find myself listening to books far more than reading them these days. It's not doing good things for my ability to focus, though, so I'm working my way back to reading (at one time, I was reading a book every week or two).



I don't think I have a problem focusing.  You should have seen what one of the kids did in class today.  Oh, I've been playing XCOM 2 lately, and I just made significant progress in my campaign.  I really need to do more squats.  What was I saying?

Oh, right, I have no problems focusing.


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## Xue Sheng (May 2, 2019)

skribs said:


> I don't think I have a problem focusing.  You should have seen what one of the kids did in class today.  Oh, I've been playing XCOM 2 lately, and I just made significant progress in my campaign.  I really need to do more squats.  What was I saying?
> 
> Oh, right, I have no problems focusing.



This is going way off topic, but that reminded me of something I read awhile back

The National Attention Deficit Disorders Book on how to....Hey lets go ride bikes


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

ShortBridge said:


> It's hard to discuss traditional martial arts on-line without fans of UFC via YouTube talking over ...


When talking about WC, I always like to put up this clip for discussion. People may say he is not doing WC. If to use chain punches to knock opponent down is your goal, there may be more than 1 path to reach there. As long as you can achieve your goal, it doesn't matter which path that you may want to take.

Instead of looking at the difference between MA systems, I like to look at the commonality between MA systems. How can a non-WC guy who can do chain punches so well is worth a lot of discussion.

It's just like a non-wrestler who can do a nice wrestling move, I also like to know what his secret training method is.

Without comparison, we may look at something only from one angle (such as WC point of view). With comparison, we can loot at the same thing from many different angles (such as boxing point of view).


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Personally, I don't have a lot to say on the subject anymore. It's been a long slow process of disenchantment.
> 
> MMA training has forced me to supplant most of what I learned over 25 years with more functional techniques.
> 
> I wouldn't say any of it was wasted training, but it's certainly not the route I would take knowing what I know now, for my specific goals.


I feel the same way as you do. Any particular MA system no longer interest me any more. My interest is in the kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration.

I do have strong interest in the WC centerline theory. But my centerline theory application (to separate opponent's arms away from his head and establish a clinch) can be different from most of the WC guys centerline theory application.


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## Martial D (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I feel the same way as you do. Any particular MA system no longer interest me any more. My interest is in the kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration.
> 
> I do have strong interest in the WC centerline theory. But my centerline theory application (to separate opponent's arms away from his head and establish a clinch) can be different from most of the WC guys centerline theory application.


Ya. All of that.

Centerline stuff is still totally valid, and all of the chisau I did does help me nuetralize guys arms and force in a way that I probably wouldn't or couldn't had I not done it. Yet, exactly none of that is taught in winchun proper.

For me it's a series of drills to help with a very specific and peripheral aspect of fighting.


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## Cephalopod (May 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> ... all of the chisau I did does help me nuetralize guys arms and force in a way that I probably wouldn't or couldn't had I not done it. Yet, *exactly none of that is taught in winchun proper.*
> 
> For me it's a series of drills to help with a very specific and peripheral aspect of fighting.



I'm sincerely interested to hear more of your perpective and experience of the highlighted part.

I feel that the greatest tangible progress I've made as a martial artist after these many years of wing chun is in my ability to neutralize force; to absorb and bypass incoming aggression or blows without getting knocked off balance. In my previous MA training, I had learned to punch and kick fast and hard and to have 'solid stances', but all went out the window when I clashed with a heavier guy because I was unable to deal with all that energy.

Do you have misgivings of the principles of WC that you learned or gaps in the training methods?


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## Martial D (May 3, 2019)

Cephalopod said:


> I'm sincerely interested to hear more of your perpective and experience of the highlighted part.
> 
> I feel that the greatest tangible progress I've made as a martial artist after these many years of wing chun is in my ability to neutralize force; to absorb and bypass incoming aggression or blows without getting knocked off balance. In my previous MA training, I had learned to punch and kick fast and hard and to have 'solid stances', but all went out the window when I clashed with a heavier guy because I was unable to deal with all that energy.
> 
> Do you have misgivings of the principles of WC that you learned or gaps in the training methods?


Both I guess. I started training in WC in 1995 or 94, and I've never really stopped. I have come to believe that there is more bathwater than baby, mostly due to pressure testing.

I have since completely thrown out or altered beyond recognition the overt elements(the stance, footwork, power delivery method, hand positions, etc) but still find some of the principles(trapping, entry strategy, gate theory, sticky hands) useful in practice.

The thing is when you change how you train, especially if you add a lot of sparring or other heavy pressure testing, the end result will be shaped by that, rather than a rigid curriculum or syllabus.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> The thing is when you change how you train, especially if you add a lot of sparring or other heavy pressure testing, the end result will be shaped by that, rather than a rigid curriculum or syllabus.


My question on this is probably semantics. Does that change make it no longer WC? By my definition, it doesn't.


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## vince1 (May 3, 2019)

yak sao said:


> What's happened to our forum here guys?
> Nobody's posting. Is it because we've said all there is to say about our art?
> Or are we tired of going over the same things again and again?
> 
> I've noticed we have some new blood here and they're bringing up some decent topics. Maybe not so new to many of us, but I think we need to engage the new guys and share some insights. It just might help them along in their journey and it may reignite a spark in us and remind us why we've dedicated so much of ourselves to our training.



I am a new forum member and have posted a few topics for discussion and contributed to some other posts. I quickly noticed some forum members just like to argue and talk in circles. I won't be posting very often or contributing as often because of this. I do realize many people on this forum are long time martial artists and have a lot of good advice to offer . I have come to realize it's better to send a PM when looking for advice rather than post.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 3, 2019)

vince1 said:


> I am a new forum member and have posted a few topics for discussion and contributed to some other posts. I quickly noticed some forum members just like to argue and talk in circles. I won't be posting very often or contributing as often because of this. I do realize many people on this forum are long time martial artists and have a lot of good advice to offer . I have come to realize it's better to send a PM when looking for advice rather than post.


Two years after you join, you don't get to keep calling yourself a "new forum member", vince.


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## vince1 (May 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Two years after you join, you don't get to keep calling yourself a "new forum member", vince.



It's been that long ! I am getting old.


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## geezer (May 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> My question on this is probably semantics. Does that change make it no longer WC? By my definition, it doesn't.



Of course it's not Wing Chun anymore! And all the more so if you aren't paying your association dues!!!


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## yak sao (May 3, 2019)

geezer said:


> Of course it's not Wing Chun anymore! And all the more so if you aren't paying your association dues!!!



I would say we could just change the spelling but I think all the options have been used up.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 3, 2019)

yak sao said:


> I would say we could just change the spelling but I think all the options have been used up.


Is anyone using “Ving Chun”? I haven’t seen that variation yet.


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## Cephalopod (May 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Both I guess. I started training in WC in 1995 or 94, and I've never really stopped. I have come to believe that there is more bathwater than baby, mostly due to pressure testing.
> 
> I have since completely thrown out or altered beyond recognition the overt elements(the stance, footwork, power delivery method, hand positions, etc) but still find some of the principles(trapping, entry strategy, gate theory, sticky hands) useful in practice.
> 
> The thing is when you change how you train, especially if you add a lot of sparring or other heavy pressure testing, the end result will be shaped by that, rather than a rigid curriculum or syllabus.



Thanks for that M-D.
Now that the bath is empty, would you say that WC nevertheless left you with an edge that you wouldn't have had you gone straight into MMA training?

It could be that we all have a journey we must take (wow...that sounds super David Carradine) to transcend the rote and literal exercises of wing chun training and learn how to apply it's basic principles to a much greater range of movements and intensities. Training in MMA circles is obviously a great vehicle for that...I wish I had the resources (and the youth) to do a bit more of that myself.

I am however wary of those who have not invested the same time that you have, using sparring and pressure testing to shape the way that they train and evaluate the principles of  WC. It takes many years to determine what is baby and what is bathwater.


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## Cephalopod (May 3, 2019)

geezer said:


> Personally, I haven't had as much to contribute lately either. I don't know what it is, but it's like I've been losing the faith. That long slow process of disenchantment.



Et tu, Geezer?

Care to elaborate on the source of your disenchantment? Is it in fact an Organization Associative Revulsion Disorder as yak speculated or something closer to D's experience?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> if you add a lot of sparring ...


The more that I spar, the more that I don't want to be punched on the head. The WC centerline principle can help me to solve that problem.


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## Martial D (May 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> My question on this is probably semantics. Does that change make it no longer WC? By my definition, it doesn't.


That depends who you ask. I would say no, and yes, depending on the moment you are describing.

If I throw a Thai kick, that's not Wing Chun in that moment. If the moment described finds me pressing down your guard as I punch though the opening, then yes, it is.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> That depends who you ask. I would say no, and yes, depending on the moment you are describing.
> 
> If I throw a Thai kick, that's not Wing Chun in that moment. If the moment described finds me pressing down your guard as I punch though the opening, then yes, it is.


That's probably how I'd see it, too - the MT kick (as I understand it) doesn't seem to fit with the WC principles (as I understand them), so isn't really part of WC. To me, a MT kick could be added to WC training, but it would remain a MT kick. My front kick could be worked into the WC framework and become part of someone's WC. My round kick might even be able to be fit into that framework (my understanding of WC is too thin for me to figure that one out), too.

I think it's reasonable that some changes don't fit the way folks would define a given art, and so would be add-ons to the training, rather than new parts of the art.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> My front kick could be worked into the WC framework and become part of someone's WC.


My double arms raising could be worked into the WC framework and become part of someone's WC too. I can use double Tan Shou (Chinese zombie arms) to wrap around my opponent's arms to establish a clinch.


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## ShortBridge (May 3, 2019)

geezer said:


> Of course it's not Wing Chun anymore! And all the more so if you aren't paying your association dues!!!



That sounds like a lineage thing. I've never been asked to pay association dues. Once you have "kung fu" worth sharing and I strongly suspect that you do, Geezer, you can do what you like with it. We're not indentured servants. You can't can't market it under an association banner unless you play by their rules. Disenchanted with the association or the system?



gpseymour said:


> That's probably how I'd see it, too - the MT kick (as I understand it) doesn't seem to fit with the WC principles (as I understand them), so isn't really part of WC. To me, a MT kick could be added to WC training, but it would remain a MT kick. My front kick could be worked into the WC framework and become part of someone's WC. My round kick might even be able to be fit into that framework (my understanding of WC is too thin for me to figure that one out), too.
> 
> I think it's reasonable that some changes don't fit the way folks would define a given art, and so would be add-ons to the training, rather than new parts of the art.



I'm not sure which MT kick you mean, but I assume the low, round one to the legs. I studied/practiced Muay Thai for about 6 years before making my way to Wing Chun (with JuJitsu in between). I don't have a deep knowledge of it, but I have a bit of experience. 

That low round kick is (sort of) in our Wing Chun and it is Wing Chun, not an added Muay Thai kick. It's not tightly held in the core principals (which is a very important part of learning Wing Chun to us), but it is an open expression of a couple of of things that are introduced formally in the system in ways that appear more Wing Chun-like. 

I also don't know which front kick you are talking about (I have most of the people who join Wing Chun conversations to advocate for everyone doing MMA instead on my ignore list, so sometimes I'm only getting pieces of the conversation), but our standard Wing Chun front kick is very similar to the front kick/push kick that I learned in Muay Thai. It's expressed differently, taught differently, and mostly used differently, but mechanically its really not that different. I actually teach it and have my students practice it a lot of different ways, including occasionally the way I learned it in Muay Thai, because I want it to be a versatile kick. I tell them where that way of doing the kick came from and contrast the difference and usually say "it's not NOT Wing Chun" to do it that way. When I have them do something in a way that is influenced by something else I picked up along the way, there is always a reason, in this case, they weren't chambering that kick the way that they should in Wing Chun and I want them to, so I made them lift their knee to their elbow the way I learned in Muay Thai for 1/2 an hour and then went back to original programming. 

It's just training. We don't have to talk about it like we've invented a different art. I don't think that Chinese sifus were this uptight about things like this, at least not the ones I've had some exposure to who have stayed non-commercial and tied to somewhere in Asia. When I ask them about how they were taught, they never list the curricula and tests that went with each "level". That is a commercial, western construct, even when it comes from a Chinese source. They're packaging it in a way that we want to consume it. I don't think it's traditional or what defines purity of system. 

Just my opinion, of course.


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## wckf92 (May 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My double arms raising could be worked into the WC framework and become part of someone's WC too. I can use double Tan Shou (Chinese zombie arms) to wrap around my opponent's arms to establish a clinch.



I think you watch too much Walking Dead


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## Anarax (May 3, 2019)

yak sao said:


> Nobody's posting. Is it because we've said all there is to say about our art?
> Or are we tired of going over the same things again and again?


I can only speak for my own reasons on why I go awhile without posting.

1. Questions are too narrow or about a topic I'm unfamiliar with. 
There's been more than a few posts about very narrow/specific topics that only someone studying that art *might *know. Some examples include questions about certain forms unique to certain lineages, masters of certain lineages, etc. Examples of unfamiliar topics are kids, running a school, etc. I usually defer these to someone more knowledgeable than myself in that area to answer it. 

2. My would be answer/contribution was already posted by someone else. 
There's no purpose in re-posting the same answer someone else already gave, especially when the original poster is receptive to the answer. 

3. Trolling 
Some posts are created for the sole purpose of provoking, thus they're a complete waste of time.



yak sao said:


> Maybe not so new to many of us, but I think we need to engage the new guys and share some insights.



When the topics become less engaging I tend to check the website less, thus I think some of the new guys questions are usually answered and buried under newer posts.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 4, 2019)

ShortBridge said:


> I'm not sure which MT kick you mean, but I assume the low, round one to the legs. I studied/practiced Muay Thai for about 6 years before making my way to Wing Chun (with JuJitsu in between). I don't have a deep knowledge of it, but I have a bit of experience.
> 
> That low round kick is (sort of) in our Wing Chun and it is Wing Chun, not an added Muay Thai kick. It's not tightly held in the core principals (which is a very important part of learning Wing Chun to us), but it is an open expression of a couple of of things that are introduced formally in the system in ways that appear more Wing Chun-like.


I was thinking more of how it turns over as it rises, so take it to the ribs or head, with the lean it induces and the offset from the lead arm. That seems - to my quite WC-uneducated eye - to not fit the principles of WC. Of course, that might just be me not knowing WC.



> I also don't know which front kick you are talking about (I have most of the people who join Wing Chun conversations to advocate for everyone doing MMA instead on my ignore list, so sometimes I'm only getting pieces of the conversation), but our standard Wing Chun front kick is very similar to the front kick/push kick that I learned in Muay Thai. It's expressed differently, taught differently, and mostly used differently, but mechanically its really not that different. I actually teach it and have my students practice it a lot of different ways, including occasionally the way I learned it in Muay Thai, because I want it to be a versatile kick. I tell them where that way of doing the kick came from and contrast the difference and usually say "it's not NOT Wing Chun" to do it that way. When I have them do something in a way that is influenced by something else I picked up along the way, there is always a reason, in this case, they weren't chambering that kick the way that they should in Wing Chun and I want them to, so I made them lift their knee to their elbow the way I learned in Muay Thai for 1/2 an hour and then went back to original programming.


I should have been clearer - I wasn't suggesting the kicks aren't in WC, rather that IF they weren't, which ones looked like they fit the overall principles and which ones didn't.



> It's just training. We don't have to talk about it like we've invented a different art. I don't think that Chinese sifus were this uptight about things like this, at least not the ones I've had some exposure to who have stayed non-commercial and tied to somewhere in Asia. When I ask them about how they were taught, they never list the curricula and tests that went with each "level". That is a commercial, western construct, even when it comes from a Chinese source. They're packaging it in a way that we want to consume it. I don't think it's traditional or what defines purity of system.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.


I have two ways I think of this. And I tend to do them in rapid succession to each other. When I add something new to what I learned from my instructors in NGA, I have to decide whether - in my mind - it's part of NGA, or something that's just part of my curriculum. My "style defined" view says that if it doesn't fit the original principles, it's not part of NGA, unless I alter some principles to make it fit. So, my tight clinch work wouldn't be part of NGA at my instructor's school (it sometimes violates the framework of principles as he teaches them). I've adjusted principles to bring it into the fold. If I don't want to adjust those principles, then it would just be part of my curriculum, not part of the art...and that's how I present it if it comes up at his school. By this view, NGA is the core of my curriculum, but not everything I teach.

My other approach is the "I teach NGA" approach. By this view, since I teach NGA, whatever I teach must be NGA. It's a sloppier view, IMO, because the style name should give some indication of what is being taught.

The of course, whatever I teach - no matter which view I use to explain it - will be thought of by my students as being NGA, so these views are just tools in my head for approaching the curriculum. The  distinctions don't really matter in the long run.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 4, 2019)

Anarax said:


> I can only speak for my own reasons on why I go awhile without posting.
> 
> 1. Questions are too narrow or about a topic I'm unfamiliar with.
> There's been more than a few posts about very narrow/specific topics that only someone studying that art *might *know. Some examples include questions about certain forms unique to certain lineages, masters of certain lineages, etc. Examples of unfamiliar topics are kids, running a school, etc. I usually defer these to someone more knowledgeable than myself in that area to answer it.
> ...


None of those things has ever stopped me from charging in like a bull in a china shop.


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## Danny T (May 4, 2019)

Kicks? You know its really funny. I was with Ajarn Chai Sirisute this past weekend. During a conversation during an evening meal someone made a remark about the 'Thai Kick'. Ajarn Chai said (I paraphrase) "You know in Thailand we have many kicks. I never heard of the Thai Kick until many years after I left Thailand. I used to teach many kicks, we have the regular kick, front kicks, sidekicks, spinning kicks, angle kicking up and kicking down, stepping kicks, hopping kicks, knee kicks, low kicks, high kicks all are different but the same. So when someone would say Thai Kick I am confused. Today people only want to learn the regular kick and the teep. I don't know why! We have many kicks and they are all muay thai kicks."


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## Anarax (May 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> None of those things has ever stopped me from charging in like a bull in a china shop.


We can't all be as outgoing and sociable as you


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## Martial D (May 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That's probably how I'd see it, too - the MT kick (as I understand it) doesn't seem to fit with the WC principles (as I understand them), so isn't really part of WC. To me, a MT kick could be added to WC training, but it would remain a MT kick. My front kick could be worked into the WC framework and become part of someone's WC. My round kick might even be able to be fit into that framework (my understanding of WC is too thin for me to figure that one out), too.
> 
> I think it's reasonable that some changes don't fit the way folks would define a given art, and so would be add-ons to the training, rather than new parts of the art.


After some years of thought it has become clear to me that there are basically two types of martial artists.

Type one trains to exault their style. They endeavor to become as close to the perfect version of what the style prescribes.

Type two uses styles to exault themselves. They will generally not stick to one style, or if they do they will see it as a road to buffing their own atributes in a more general sense.

Between these types of course exists a spectrum, but I feel most sit somewhere near either end of it.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> After some years of thought it has become clear to me that there are basically two types of martial artists.
> 
> Type one trains to exault their style. They endeavor to become as close to the perfect version of what the style prescribes.
> 
> ...


I'm curious on your take when someone uses other arts to "improve" (in their own view) their primary art - or at least to improve how they use and teach it. Where do you place that on the continuum? Or is it just a semantic difference from your second classification?


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## Martial D (May 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious on your take when someone uses other arts to "improve" (in their own view) their primary art - or at least to improve how they use and teach it. Where do you place that on the continuum? Or is it just a semantic difference from your second classification?



In this question you have just switched the focus from learning to teaching, so the answer would depend on whether you are training people to be effective by any and all means, or training them to be really good at NGA. What's your focus?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> In this question you have just switched the focus from learning to teaching, so the answer would depend on whether you are training people to be effective by any and all means, or training them to be really good at NGA. What's your focus?


Yeah, that change from learning to teaching was my point in the question - sorry if that wasn't clear. It's a bit of both, actually. I use NGA as a vehicle for the former. Once they have some basic competency, focus splits. Some exercises are about overall effectiveness. Some are specifically designed to get better at the principles of NGA, since that's the primary vehicle I'm using.

I think my learning was a bit this way, too. I just usually had the dual focus I now teach to my students (actually, it went back and forth, oscillating between the two).


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Type one trains to exault their style.


One of my long fist senior brothers believed that some wrestling skill are hidden in the long fist system. He took those hidden wrestling skill out and taught to his students. One year he brought 15 of his students to compete in a Chinese wrestling tournament. They all lost.

- Boxing has the best punching skill.
- MT and TKD have the best kicking skill.
- Eagle claw and hapkido have the best locking skill.
- Chinese wrestling, western wrestling, Judo has the best throwing skill.
- BJJ has the best ground skill.
- WC has the best centerline principle.
- Praying mantis has the best speed training.
- Baji, XYLH, Chan Taiji have the best power generation training.
- ...

If we don't keep our eyes open, we may lose a lot of valuable information.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 5, 2019)

yak sao said:


> What's happened to our forum here guys?


In another MA forum that whenever I post my opinion, someone would always post right under my post and said how wrong I was. Of course I can spend my time to argue with that person. But the way I look at this is "If it's not fun, don't play it." I have deleted the ICON to open that forum so I won't get to it by accident.

When you play some music but nobody appreciate/understand your music, one day you will stop playing.


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## yak sao (May 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another MA forum that whenever I post my opinion, someone would always post right under my post and said how wrong I was. Of course I can spend my time to argue with that person. But the way I look at this is "If it's not fun, don't play it." I have deleted the ICON to open that forum so I won't get to it by accident.
> 
> When you play some music but nobody appreciate/understand your music, one day you will stop playing.



That's what I like about MT.
Sure we disagree on things, and we have the occasional jacka$$ come along, but at the end of the day, everyone tends to respect each other for the most part and we're able to have pretty good discussions here.

Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't, but I always value your input. So keep strumming, or plucking, or tooting, or whatever it is you're playing.


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## Buka (May 5, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Is anyone using “Ving Chun”? I haven’t seen that variation yet.



I'm pronouncing it that way, and with a Yiddish accent, from now on. I love accents.


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## dvcochran (May 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Personally, I don't have a lot to say on the subject anymore. It's been a long slow process of disenchantment.
> 
> MMA training has forced me to supplant most of what I learned over 25 years with more functional techniques.
> 
> I wouldn't say any of it was wasted training, but it's certainly not the route I would take knowing what I know now, for my specific goals.


I would ask that you expand on your comment. I find it very interesting. The way I read it MMA has sullied your original training.


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## dvcochran (May 5, 2019)

geezer said:


> Personally, I haven't had as much to contribute lately either. I don't know what it is, but it's like I've been losing the faith. That long slow process of disenchantment.


You are the 2nd or 3rd person to use the word disenchantment. Are you speaking about the forum or MA in general?


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## dvcochran (May 5, 2019)

I think I am one of the older folks who post on MT but I consider myself one of the young bucks on this forum, or any forum for any matter. I have never been on reddit. Our son frequents it and I have always had the impression it is a generational thing of sorts. Fb has it place and its merits, the same is true for LinkedIn for business/professional contacts. Sure there are sites exclusive to MMA, boxing, and probably for most mainstream Martial Arts. One of the greatest values I get from MT is the broad base of knowledge from almost every style. And the ability to post or gather information from a specific style if I wish. This is invaluable to anyone who is active or mildly interested in any form of MA. How many times have we seen post from a new student or concerned parent? This is unique. We should never be dismissive of post like these. If you have been a long time student of any MA you know it has been in decline for some time, finally showing some recovery in the last two years. Whether you consider your style traditional or not it is Martial and has a place of value on this site. I have zero perspective on increase or decrease to this site. I just know I enjoy and appreciate it. I hope the merit of this thread is to stimulate action to this site since it would be truly tragic to see it go away. 
If there isn't already a board or leadership group who regularly has a meeting of minds that talk about more than just P&L it sounds like it is overdue.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 5, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> If there isn't already a board or leadership group who regularly has a meeting of minds that talk about more than just P&L it sounds like it is overdue.


Sadly I don't think there's even anyone who meets about P&L...that's mostly done by the owners of the site, and their pretty laissez-faire about everything.


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## Martial D (May 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I would ask that you expand on your comment. I find it very interesting. The way I read it MMA has sullied your original training.


I guess that depends on how you define sullied.

My goal was never to be the best 'at wing chun', it was to be the best martial artist I could be, and can be.

At some point one must choose whether for them it's the style, or the results. It's always going to be one or the other. Any given style is only a piece of the puzzle.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I would ask that you expand on your comment. I find it very interesting. The way I read it MMA has sullied your original training.


I read it that his MMA training has provided better tools (at least in MD's opinion) for him in some areas, and he's incorporated those into his personal style. I think that happens any time you take on new (good) training. The question isn't whether something will be supplanted by an option that works better for you, but to what extent.


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## dvcochran (May 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> I guess that depends on how you define sullied.
> 
> My goal was never to be the best 'at wing chun', it was to be the best martial artist I could be, and can be.
> 
> At some point one must choose whether for them it's the style, or the results. It's always going to be one or the other. Any given style is only a piece of the puzzle.


A logical thought process. The availability of information in our society today can bring the arts closer together or further drive a wedge. I would hate to see any style go away. Somehow we have to find a way to balance the ideas of our given style that we find have value with the fact that progress is good and natural. I see no reason why techniques that are used in some of the modern fighting system, MMA for example, cannot be integrated into some TMA. If we cant figure out a way to do this with integrity, I do see some styles all be vanishing.


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## dvcochran (May 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Sadly I don't think there's even anyone who meets about P&L...that's mostly done by the owners of the site, and their pretty laissez-faire about everything.


If there is a medium for contact, let's create a board and present our concerns with data to back them up. BTW, I am all for laissez-faire as long as it is working. If collectively we feel something is wrong and we should be doing something, well the course of action seems pretty straight forward.


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## Martial D (May 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> A logical thought process. The availability of information in our society today can bring the arts closer together or further drive a wedge. I would hate to see any style go away. Somehow we have to find a way to balance the ideas of our given style that we find have value with the fact that progress is good and natural. I see no reason why techniques that are used in some of the modern fighting system, MMA for example, cannot be integrated into some TMA. If we cant figure out a way to do this with integrity, I do see some styles all be vanishing.


MMA is just a distillation of what works. I know this isn't always the easiest pill to swallow, but it's completely results driven, and that's just the way results driven things roll out.

I really dislike the split in the community between TMA and MMA. They are both important. 

There is no MMA if there is nothing to mix. Specialized styles are simply better at advancing specialized areas of fighting. The pressure testing MMA offers is the lab through which TMA science is tested and refined.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> There is no MMA if there is nothing to mix.


When people asked me, "Are you training your style pure?" My answer was, "I try very hard to train my style impure."


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