# Wing Chun Vs MMA .... Why So Serious?



## StormShadow (Apr 2, 2013)

Every where I turn on youtube, if the video is martial arts related, there are videos of mma guys bashing wing chun.  It seems to be more venom pointed towards wing chun from mma dudes than most other Chinese martial arts.  I am trying to figure out the reason why.  We get wing chun doesn't translate to the octagon .  Practitioners don't train for the octogon, they train for multiple attackers, knives and so fourth. MMA guys don't seem to grasp this. In college this mma guy tried to shoot for my legs. I jumped backed and merely kicked him in his face as hard as I could with a boot on. Needless to say, from that point the fight was over.  I only have a few lessons of jkd at that point.  MMA is not invincible or the best fighting system on the planet but these dudes act like it is.  It truly depends on the person.  Some people are naturally good fighters to begin with before they learn any style or technique.  

I've also seen a guy with a wrestling/jj background trying to ground fight a guy, seconds later, as he had the guy in a hold, the guy's friends stumped the wrestler into the middle of the next century.  And none of this guys knew martial arts, just pure street fighting.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 2, 2013)

Mate, on Youtube you have MMA fans bashing WC while not subtly promoting their system, and WC fans bashing MMA more subtly by promoting their system.
Thats youtube comments for you. MMA guys grasp all this. Fans dont. Fans support the things they support. Its like sports teams. You either like the sport, or you like a sports team. Sometimes that means you badmouth the other teams along the way.

As for your example, in PRIDE rules kicks like that were totally acceptable, and double leg takedowns still happened. In your example, that was the attackers error. Not to devalue the example. Just remember that WC is not invincible either, just because it trains for multiple attackers, knife, and so forth. And being blindsided is pretty much unavoidable at close range, if theres another person around. If you cant see them both, you cant avoid them both.


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## StormShadow (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm not saying WC is invincible.  I was merely pointing out what I witnessed. And on the youtube examples, there are indeed more authors of youtube videos bashing WC as opposed to vice versa.  They may be people in the comments who studied or have studied WC, defending it but the former still seems to happen more often of mma guys being venomous towards WC practioners. I just don't see the need for the comparison of a sport to a combat, street style art.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 2, 2013)

The odds are that most of the style-bashing commenters on YouTube are not serious practitioners of any martial art - just keyboard warrior wannabees.  I train at a MMA gym and I've never heard anyone there bashing Wing Chun.


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## mook jong man (Apr 2, 2013)

Who gives a rats **** what they say?
I started training in Wing Chun in June 1989 before most of these little plebs were even born.
Their uninformed opinions don't affect my training one way or the other.
Don't expend any mental energy worrying about it , save your concentration for training your Sil Lum Tao.


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## yak sao (Apr 2, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> Who gives a rats **** what they say?
> Their uninformed opinions don't affect my training one way or the other.
> Don't expend any mental energy worrying about it , save your concentration for training your Sil Lum Tao.



I would have to second this.
While I give MMA guys credit for putting up and training hard, they are a different animal.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Apr 2, 2013)

My best advice considering the controversy on MMA & WT/WC/VT/VC on youtube is; Just watch the video's and don't scroll and read through the coments... Just enjoy the video's.

All the best,

Jeff


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## Drasken (Apr 2, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> My best advice considering the controversy on MMA & WT/WC/VT/VC on youtube is; Just watch the video's and don't scroll and read through the coments... Just enjoy the video's.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Jeff



I have to second this recommendation. I learned long ago to ignore comments on YouTube as they are generally made by ignorant people who have no clue of what they're talking about. Or worse yet, and just as common, are trolls that are just trying to invoke the feelings of anger so that they can laugh at people who respond.


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## StormShadow (Apr 2, 2013)

Someone is incorporting bjj with "wing chun" to bridge wing chun and mma.  It rather looks more like wing chun chain punches are only used with bjj.... Take a look


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## mook jong man (Apr 2, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Someone is incorporting bjj with "wing chun" to bridge wing chun and mma.  It rather looks more like wing chun chain punches are only used with bjj....* Take a look *



I wish I hadn't.


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## wtxs (Apr 3, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Someone is incorporting bjj with "wing chun" to bridge wing chun and mma.  It rather looks more like wing chun chain punches are only used with bjj.... Take a look



Looks pretty and flashy, I'm sure what he's doing will work against an MMA ... providing he (the MMA) stop attacking after the first few punches and asked to be taken.


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## StormShadow (Apr 3, 2013)

I actually was thinking the same thing


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 3, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Someone is incorporting bjj with "wing chun" to bridge wing chun and mma.  It rather looks more like wing chun chain punches are only used with bjj.... Take a look



I'm not qualified to judge the Wing Chun, but the "BJJ" is pretty terrible.


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## Steve (Apr 3, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not qualified to judge the Wing Chun, but the "BJJ" is pretty terrible.


Pretty terrible is being kind, Tony. 

The first armbar was my favorite.  I like how he kind of pretended it was also a choke.  I think most grapplers would see it as an invitation to pass guard.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 3, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Every where I turn on youtube, if the video is martial arts related, there are videos of mma guys bashing wing chun.  It seems to be more venom pointed towards wing chun from mma dudes than most other Chinese martial arts.  I am trying to figure out the reason why.  We get wing chun doesn't translate to the octagon .  Practitioners don't train for the octogon, they train for multiple attackers, knives and so fourth. MMA guys don't seem to grasp this. In college this mma guy tried to shoot for my legs. I jumped backed and merely kicked him in his face as hard as I could with a boot on. Needless to say, from that point the fight was over.  I only have a few lessons of jkd at that point.  MMA is not invincible or the best fighting system on the planet but these dudes act like it is.  It truly depends on the person.  Some people are naturally good fighters to begin with before they learn any style or technique.
> 
> I've also seen a guy with a wrestling/jj background trying to ground fight a guy, seconds later, as he had the guy in a hold, the guy's friends stumped the wrestler into the middle of the next century.  And none of this guys knew martial arts, just pure street fighting.


-----------------------------------------------------

I have been doing wing chun for a very long time. For me it's very effective style. I watch other styles for fun and info- but I care zilch what some you tube commentator thinks about wing chun.
I have confidence in what  I do.I also keep evolving in the depth of my wing chun.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 3, 2013)

Steve said:


> Pretty terrible is being kind, Tony.
> 
> The first armbar was my favorite.  I like how he kind of pretended it was also a choke.  I think most grapplers would see it as an invitation to pass guard.
> 
> View attachment 17805



Yeah, I was definitely being diplomatic with that assessment.  You can really tell when someone has learned all their grappling from imitating videos with a compliant partner and has no clue what is required to actually make the techniques work.


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## StormShadow (Apr 3, 2013)

More proof of mma hatred of wing chun... Some mma fans/practioners"?" decided to create a video out of a bunch of clips that shows wing chun failing  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ICLpE40nQ&list=FL-c%C2%ADr9_VseHgCkEJfgwCacYw


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## Cyriacus (Apr 3, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> More proof of mma fans being typical fans and hating on things that arent their sports team, just like in football, handegg, baseball, and pretty much every other sport in existance... Some mma fans whove probably never trained a day in their lives decided to create a video out of a bunch of clips that shows wing chun failing  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ICLpE40nQ&list=FL-c%C2%ADr9_VseHgCkEJfgwCacYw, much like how politicians can run campaigns based on criticism towards the opposing party.



I fixed your post for you.


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## Steve (Apr 3, 2013)

Video unavailable...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## mook jong man (Apr 3, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> More proof of mma hatred of wing chun... Some mma fans/practioners"?" decided to create a video out of a bunch of clips that shows wing chun failing  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ICLpE40nQ&list=FL-c%C2%ADr9_VseHgCkEJfgwCacYw



Ha , they actually went to the trouble of making a 41 minute video about it.

Some people need to get a friggin life.


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## mook jong man (Apr 4, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> More proof of mma hatred of wing chun... Some mma fans/practioners"?" decided to create a video out of a bunch of clips that shows wing chun failing  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ICLpE40nQ&list=FL-c­r9_VseHgCkEJfgwCacYw



You can keep that crappy video.

I prefer to use my bandwidth on something a bit more inspiring.

[video=youtube_share;VUZkNxq7A1Y]http://youtu.be/VUZkNxq7A1Y[/video]


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## mysurvive (Apr 4, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> You can keep that crappy video.
> 
> I prefer to use my bandwidth on something a bit more inspiring.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;VUZkNxq7A1Y]http://youtu.be/VUZkNxq7A1Y[/video]



Now THAT'S Wing Chun. The epitome of efficiency. He barely moves at all... the whole video... and those young bucks are just flying around. Did you see the power in that 'one inch punch?' I'm surprised that guy's shoulder was still in it's socket. Great video, I'm adding it to my favorites on my youtube.


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## VT_Vectis (Apr 4, 2013)

mysurvive said:


> Now THAT'S Wing Chun. The epitome of efficiency. He barely moves at all... the whole video... and those young bucks are just flying around. Did you see the power in that 'one inch punch?' I'm surprised that guy's shoulder was still in it's socket. Great video, I'm adding it to my favorites on my youtube.



Here's a link to an interesting article I found By Tsui sheung Tin (the guy in the video) known as king of Siu nim tau, on the 1st form;
http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html


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## mysurvive (Apr 4, 2013)

VT_Vectis said:


> Here's a link to an interesting article I found By Tsui sheung Tin (the guy in the video) known as king of Siu nim tau, on the 1st form;
> http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html



Fantastic read, especially for a new person like me just learning SNT/SLT. I've always heard "PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE SLT!" But that article REALLY puts into context as to WHY. I love it.


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## mook jong man (Apr 4, 2013)

VT_Vectis said:


> Here's a link to an interesting article I found By Tsui sheung Tin (the guy in the video) known as king of Siu nim tau, on the 1st form;
> http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html



I was teaching a small  class once a long time ago , it was late in the afternoon  not many people around in the school  , and I had to demonstrate a low heel kick.
Quietly sitting over on the other side of the room watching me was Sigung Tsui.

He was in town to visit my Sifu , and he was in the school just relaxing after his returning from his usual hour long walk.
I don't think I have ever been so nervous teaching a technique in my life as with him watching me , I kept thinking he's going to come over in a minute and say that's wrong here's how it's supposed to be done.

Which was quite stupid of me because he only speaks cantonese.
In the end he didn't say anything so I took it he thought it was alright.


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## mysurvive (Apr 4, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> I was teaching a small  class once a long time ago , it was late in the afternoon  not many people around in the school  , and I had to demonstrate a low heel kick.
> Quietly sitting over on the other side of the room watching me was Sigung Tsui.
> 
> He was in town to visit my Sifu , and he was in the school just relaxing after his returning from his usual hour long walk.
> ...



Even if he did, would you have been so embarrassed? I would be honored for someone of his authority to correct me. Not saying that you wouldn't feel honored... but even if I had done it correctly, I would have wanted him to come over and give input. That's an awesome experience though.


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## Mauthos (Apr 4, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> You can keep that crappy video.
> 
> I prefer to use my bandwidth on something a bit more inspiring.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;VUZkNxq7A1Y]http://youtu.be/VUZkNxq7A1Y[/video]



I'm not a wing chun man by any stretch of the imagination, but after watching that video I hope that I have the same level of skill that men like that possess in 1 of their fingers by the time I'm that age.  Awesome!  Thanks for sharing.


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## mook jong man (Apr 4, 2013)

mysurvive said:


> Even if he did, would you have been so embarrassed? I would be honored for someone of his authority to correct me. Not saying that you wouldn't feel honored... but even if I had done it correctly, I would have wanted him to come over and give input. That's an awesome experience though.



Not so much embarrassed but more dissapointed that I might of messed it up in front of him.
I was quite a new junior instructor then and still a bit self conscious about teaching and talking in front of a group , let alone my master's master.
But now years later , knowing what type of person he is , he wouldn't embarrass an instructor in front of a group students anyway if they did something incorrect.
He might have a quiet word later , but he wouldn't do it in front of students.


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## yak sao (Apr 4, 2013)

Nice video....total body unity


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## StormShadow (Apr 4, 2013)

The reason behind me posting that youtube vid of mma guys going out of there way to bash wing chun was to illustrate the point, people do not seem to understand the difference between a combat sport and a combat art for actual fighting. If you put any pure 1 style martial artist in a mma ring they will likely fail. For stance, a pure muy tai guy vs a mma guy of jkd, boxing, kickboxing and bjj. MMA guys are using multiple arts that have been stripped of techniques do to rules while a guy in one style has to also strip his techniques leaving him with few options as opposed to someone with multiple style under there belt.  

Even though the styles they are using are somewhat stripped as well, they have multiple to draw from as opposed to one.  This does not hold true on the street though. There is no stripping of styles. There is only the efficiency, power, speed, will and intelligence of the fighter.  Pulling from the example above, the mma guy may win in the ring, but outside the ring, the muy tai guy is free to use a barrage of elbows knees and other techniques that would be otherwise forbidden. It is a fallacy that many of the mma community try to judge a martial art based on its effectiveness in the octagon. You have to judge it based on it's effectiveness in the street.


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## StormShadow (Apr 4, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> You can keep that crappy video.
> 
> I prefer to use my bandwidth on something a bit more inspiring.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;VUZkNxq7A1Y]http://youtu.be/VUZkNxq7A1Y[/video]



Trust me, that video I posted is not in my favorites.


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## StormShadow (Apr 5, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> I was teaching a small  class once a long time ago , it was late in the afternoon  not many people around in the school  , and I had to demonstrate a low heel kick.
> Quietly sitting over on the other side of the room watching me was Sigung Tsui.
> 
> He was in town to visit my Sifu , and he was in the school just relaxing after his returning from his usual hour long walk.
> ...



What is the last technique he performed in the video?... he did something with his finger

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## yak sao (Apr 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> What is the last technique he performed in the video?... he did something with his finger
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2



I don't think he's actually using his finger. It looks to me like he's pointing to the angle of his forearm and then is using elbow force to disrupt his balance.


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## StormShadow (Apr 5, 2013)

Thanks, I couldn't really make it out.  The only thing I viewed was the guy seemed to be grabbing his arm and as he moves his finger down his arm the guy looks like something hit him.


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## Steve (Apr 5, 2013)

Learning to fight, eh?  Do you get into a lot of fights?  Use the wing chun to fight regularly?


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## StormShadow (Apr 5, 2013)

No not regularly.  I'm a pretty peaceful guy so I don't look for fights. I'm a little over a month into wing chun training so I'm trying to absorb everything.  I've trained in boxing and jkd in the past.


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## StormShadow (Apr 5, 2013)

Found this little link on youtube on how to deal with a kickboxer... I like the techniques used.


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## mook jong man (Apr 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Thanks, I couldn't really make it out.  The only thing I viewed was the guy seemed to be grabbing his arm and as he moves his finger down his arm the guy looks like something hit him.



Yak Sao is right.
He's getting the guy to put his hand on his elbow to  try and resist his Biu Tse elbow strike and indicating with his finger what direction his force is going in.


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## Steve (Apr 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> No not regularly.  I'm a pretty peaceful guy so I don't look for fights. I'm a little over a month into wing chun training so I'm trying to absorb everything.  I've trained in boxing and jkd in the past.


Whew.  Glad to hear that.  When you said you're studying a combat art that's for actual fighting, it seemed reasonable to presume that you are, you know, actually fighting.  That is, after all, what you think the combat art you're learning is for.  Right?


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## StormShadow (Apr 5, 2013)

Do you mean sparring or actually "I'm trying to kill you" fighting? Sparring, yes.  Have I used wing chun in a fight? no.  Have I used boxing and jdk in a fight.. yes.. against a wrestler and his hands never made contact long enough to take me down. I'm not competing, nor am I training for a competitive sport. I'm training for real life situations and to be able to call upon it when I need it. I am also training for the enlightenment of learning different arts and applications of how their principles apply to life. So in all, I'm not merely learning a combat art to fight, where i'm from most people do not fight;  they shoot. All the martial arts in the world won't stand against an automatic weapon.  I am learning for the principles, the knowledge, the experience, combat, and because I love it.


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## Steve (Apr 5, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Do you mean sparring or actually "I'm trying to kill you" fighting? Sparring, yes.  Have I used wing chun in a fight? no.  Have I used boxing and jdk in a fight.. yes.. against a wrestler and his hands never made contact long enough to take me down. I'm not competing, nor am I training for a competitive sport. I'm training for real life situations and to be able to call upon it when I need it. I am also training for the enlightenment of learning different arts and applications of how their principles apply to life. So in all, I'm not merely learning a combat art to fight, where i'm from most people do not fight;  they shoot. All the martial arts in the world won't stand against an automatic weapon.  I am learning for the principles, the knowledge, the experience, combat, and because I love it.



You tell me.  You said its a combat art for fighting.  Not me.  How is it a combat art for fighting if there's no combat or fighting?  

Or maybe it isn't a combat art for fighting, but is instead an art for learning principles and knowledge.  


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## Argus (Apr 5, 2013)

Steve said:


> You tell me.  You said its a combat art for fighting.  Not me.  How is it a combat art for fighting if there's no combat or fighting?
> 
> Or maybe it isn't a combat art for fighting, but is instead an art for learning principles and knowledge.
> 
> ...




Research "Beimo", and "Wong Shun Leung"

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your view), not many people these days have the chance to test their art under such circumstances, so the understanding of "combat" is increasingly limited just to theory and sport. So while there is a distinct difference between combat and sport, I doubt that practitioners of either type of art have a much better understanding of the former.


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## StormShadow (Apr 6, 2013)

Steve said:


> You tell me.  You said its a combat art for fighting.  Not me.  How is it a combat art for fighting if there's no combat or fighting?
> 
> Or maybe it isn't a combat art for fighting, but is instead an art for learning principles and knowledge.
> 
> ...



At this point, I am not even sure if you know what your premise is exactly. What are you questioning? Do I go out in the street and pick fights with people to test my wing chun? Haha... Please tell me what you are trying to arrive at.


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## mysurvive (Apr 6, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> At this point, I am not even sure if you know what your premise is exactly. What are you questioning? Do I go out in the street and pick fights with people to test my wing chun? Haha... Please tell me what you are trying to arrive at.



I agree with storm, it seems like you just came in here to stir up the pot and that no answer would be the right answer... why?


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## Cyriacus (Apr 6, 2013)

Now, im not trying to speak on anyones behalf, but i believe Steve was questioning how Storm defines a combat art, since thats what he called it. With the intent of seeing, well, how he defines it so we know what hes talking about.

If that *isnt* what Steve meant, id like to know anyway.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> At this point, I am not even sure if you know what your premise is exactly. What are you questioning? Do I go out in the street and pick fights with people to test my wing chun? Haha... Please tell me what you are trying to arrive at.


Just trying to understand what you're getting at.  You said, "_people do not seem to understand the difference between a combat sport and a combat art for actual fighting._"  I'll admit that I'm one of those people.  At least, when you put it like that, I'm not so sure I understand what you mean.  

So, explain it to me.  I train in a combat sport, I think.  You, I gather, train in a "combat art for actual fighting."  Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's the impression I'm getting based on what you said.   With me so far?  I hope so.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you go out and pick fights.  I'm suggesting that your art might not be "for actual fighting" if you aren't actually fighting.  It could be that your art is really for something else.  And frankly, either way, I'm trying to figure out how much thought you've put into this, because the distinction between combat "arts" and combat "sports" is muddy at best, and no nearly as clean and clear as was implied by the simple phrase I quoted above.

So, the question I'm getting at here is this.  Combat sports are to competition as combat arts are to...  what?  You said fighting.  So, people in a combat sport compete.  Isn't it reasonable to presume that you are fighting?  Or conversely, if you aren't fighting, perhaps your statement that you are training in a combat art for actual fighting was mistaken.  

What do you think?

Edit:  If this is off topic, guys, let me know.  I figured in a thread on Wing Chun vs MMA, it might be an okay time for me to hash this out.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Now, im not trying to speak on anyones behalf, but i believe Steve was questioning how Storm defines a combat art, since thats what he called it. With the intent of seeing, well, how he defines it so we know what hes talking about.
> 
> If that *isnt* what Steve meant, id like to know anyway.


Pretty much.  Hope I cleared it up a little in the previous post.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 6, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Every where I turn on youtube, if the video is martial arts related, there are videos of mma guys bashing wing chun.  It seems to be more venom pointed towards wing chun from mma dudes than most other Chinese martial arts.  I am trying to figure out the reason why.  We get wing chun doesn't translate to the octagon .  Practitioners don't train for the octogon, they train for multiple attackers, knives and so fourth. MMA guys don't seem to grasp this.



It comes from 2 places: ignorance and ego - Here is an example of a comment I saw a while back. "Belts, who cares about belts. Take someone who has trained way harder say a 10th Dan in Wing Chun or an 8th Dan in Taekwondo and put them in the ring with a 2 year veteran of MMA and both of these masters would lose without effert". Those were pretty much his exact words including the word effert.


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## yak sao (Apr 6, 2013)

Who is Effert?


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## StormShadow (Apr 6, 2013)

Steve said:


> Just trying to understand what you're getting at.  You said, "_people do not seem to understand the difference between a combat sport and a combat art for actual fighting._"  I'll admit that I'm one of those people.  At least, when you put it like that, I'm not so sure I understand what you mean.
> 
> So, explain it to me.  I train in a combat sport, I think.  You, I gather, train in a "combat art for actual fighting."  Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's the impression I'm getting based on what you said.   With me so far?  I hope so.
> 
> ...



Oh ok..  Well it's simple to me.  Combat sport- fighting with rules. certain techniques not allowed, lowering the possibility of death or severe injury. Combat art/combat for street fighting- trying to end the fight as quickly as possible. No rules, all strikes are in play, you kill if you have too or if the fight ends in that result. Trying to break legs, arms, necks ect as fast as possible.  Hindering the fighter from continuing and doing so quickly. Trying to cause severe pain as fast as possible.  So yes, some of the techniques I cannot truly apply as I would like as I would wind up in jail.  Of course this can also be said for other arts such as muy thai or boran muy thai which has been watered down for mma use. A sport is monitored by a body. Real combat is not.


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## StormShadow (Apr 6, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> It comes from 2 places: ignorance and ego - Here is an example of a comment I saw a while back. "Belts, who cares about belts. Take someone who has trained way harder say a 10th Dan in Wing Chun or an 8th Dan in Taekwondo and put them in the ring with a 2 year veteran of MMA and both of these masters would lose without effert". Those were pretty much his exact words including the word effert.



The biggest claim to fame mma guys have ( and I do like mma by the way) is bjj and/or wrestling.  Ground fighting made mma what it is now.  A large percentage of mma fights go to the ground. A choke, or arm bar and a tap out. MMA fans and some mma athletes disrespect other martial arts alot.  Walking in the octagon and blowing up someone's knee or shin is not good for business, thus not allowed in mma. In a place with rules you must play by them which changes your training.  So any pure martial artists in any one style may not come out on top because of this.  The same is not true when there are no rules.  I believe this is the misconception.


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## mysurvive (Apr 6, 2013)

Steve said:


> Just trying to understand what you're getting at.  You said, "_people do not seem to understand the difference between a combat sport and a combat art for actual fighting._"  I'll admit that I'm one of those people.  At least, when you put it like that, I'm not so sure I understand what you mean.
> 
> So, explain it to me.  I train in a combat sport, I think.  You, I gather, train in a "combat art for actual fighting."  Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's the impression I'm getting based on what you said.   With me so far?  I hope so.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, it just seemed like you were leading storm around in circles to try to get the answer you wanted... at least that's how your posts read.

I'm also very new to WC, but here's my take:

MMA is an effective fighting style that is made specifically for the sport of fighting in the arena. Yes, you will learn arm bars that can break and seriously hurt someone, but all in all the point of MMA is to have the other person give up before you do.

WC on the other hand, was created as a way of protection hundreds of years ago and the point of it is to completely destroy an enemy whether that be kill, maim, or otherwise. 

I'm not saying that one is better than another, I'm simply stating what I see as a difference between a combat style and a sport. maybe those arent' good words to describe them, but it's what first comes to mind.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Oh ok..  Well it's simple to me.  Combat sport- fighting with rules. certain techniques not allowed, lowering the possibility of death or severe injury. Combat art/combat for street fighting- trying to end the fight as quickly as possible. No rules, all strikes are in play, you kill if you have too or if the fight ends in that result. Trying to break legs, arms, necks ect as fast as possible.  Hindering the fighter from continuing and doing so quickly. Trying to cause severe pain as fast as possible.  So yes, some of the techniques I cannot truly apply as I would like as I would wind up in jail.  Of course this can also be said for other arts such as muy thai or boran muy thai which has been watered down for mma use. A sport is monitored by a body. Real combat is not.


Okay.  Sounds fair.  So, no rules.  What does that look like to you?  Have you ever engaged someone else with no rules?  Even once?  How long does it take to break someone's arm, leg or neck?  Do you know?  I'm pretty sure I know how long it would take me to break a person's arm, but that's largely because I use the techniques all the time.  

Here's another question for you.  If you think that the techniques used in sports are watered down, what would you call techniques that are trained but never used?  Isn't that also watered down?  Maybe even more watered down?


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2013)

mysurvive said:


> I'm sorry, it just seemed like you were leading storm around in circles to try to get the answer you wanted... at least that's how your posts read.
> 
> I'm also very new to WC, but here's my take:
> 
> ...


Right.  I get that, and appreciate the response.  I'm just asking questions.  Killing and maiming is serious stuff.


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## StormShadow (Apr 6, 2013)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Sounds fair.  So, no rules.  What does that look like to you?  Have you ever engaged someone else with no rules?  Even once?  How long does it take to break someone's arm, leg or neck?  Do you know?  I'm pretty sure I know how long it would take me to break a person's arm, but that's largely because I use the techniques all the time.
> 
> Here's another question for you.  If you think that the techniques used in sports are watered down, what would you call techniques that are trained but never used?  Isn't that also watered down?  Maybe even more watered down?



I'm not saying techniques are watered down but the particular art would be sense you are detracting from it to fit into a frame of a sport. Engaging someone with no rules is a regular fight, yes I've been in a few of those.  I fail to see what that has to do with anything.  I think you believe I am attempting to bash mma, which is not the case.


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## StormShadow (Apr 6, 2013)

Steve said:


> Right.  I get that, and appreciate the response.  I'm just asking questions.  Killing and maiming is serious stuff.




I get it that you are likely being facetious in your response but what he is saying is that the techniques are meant to end a fight quickly.  When it is the appropriate time for attack, I would be trying to injure horrifically.  That's what wing chun was meant for.  To end the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible.  This is what I believe survive is saying.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 6, 2013)

Ill just offhandly comment that no-rules techniques tend to be the same as rules techniques, just used in a different way. Drawing a distinction between the physical movements and the objective behind them is important.


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## mook jong man (Apr 6, 2013)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Sounds fair.  So, no rules.  What does that look like to you?  Have you ever engaged someone else with no rules?  Even once?  How long does it take to break someone's arm, leg or neck?  Do you know?  I'm pretty sure I know how long it would take me to break a person's arm, but that's largely because I use the techniques all the time.
> 
> Here's another question for you.  If you think that the techniques used in sports are watered down, _*what would you call techniques that are trained but never used?  Isn't that also watered down?  Maybe even more watered down*_?



But the techniques are used , they just don't get used at full power on a live human being.

They get used on one of these , you can't hurt the Mook Jong , you can't kill it , it doesn't get tired and it never has to stop training to go home to it's wife and kids.


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## Argus (Apr 7, 2013)

Steve, 

I don't know much about BJJ, but I thought the gracie brothers made some interesting comments on this subject: 




There are so many things that are taken for granted in a sport. You're fighting for points. You're fighting in a ring. You'll only be fighting one opponent. You'll be fighting on a mat. You and your opponent will be (or will not be) wearing certain clothes. You won't be wearing shoes. Strikers will be wearing gloves. There will be rules about how and where you can attack; usually you can't attack targets such as the neck, groin, eyes, or spine - often, you cannot kick a downed opponent, or you may not even be able to strike at all. You will be fighting opponents of a certain nature, of a certain culture. If you're in an MMA context, your opponents are going to be concerned with one thing; fighting and winning. They will be popular, professional fighters. They _usually_ will be big, buff guys who wax their chests, arms, and legs, wear tattoos, fight in their underwear, and train simple and effective arts not for the sake of the art, but simply as a quick and effective method of learning to win the game against other very similar opponents with the same goals and methods. And if you want to be popular and successful in that particular sport, you have to fit the culture and fit the game. 

Generally, these games are set-up to prolong combat and make it interesting and entertaining to watch, and fun to participate in. The participants aren't trying to kill or seriously injure one another. They will start square off, in a very controlled environment, proceed with care and feel eachother out, and engage in a physical duel. This is in contrast to a serious fight, in which two opponents close very quickly and very violently. A brief, violent and vigorous exchange of blows, and one party or the other goes down. There is no feeling out your opponent. There are no rules or equipment to prolong the fight and make it safe in any way, and there is nothing that can be taken for granted; weapons, multiple opponents, shoes, bare knuckles, low kicks, pavement and concrete. The very, very specific set of circumstances that you train for in competition become irrelevant, and in many cases, if you think like you do in a competition, you will be in trouble.

Or so the story goes. But like most martial artists, I have no actual experience with actual fighting, so it's all just theory! However, I choose to put stock in the views and accounts of certain practitioners who had their arts tested in self-defense and skill comparison fights of the mid 20th century.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 7, 2013)

yak sao said:


> Who is Effert?



He meant to say effort but wrote effert instead.


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> He meant to say effort but wrote effert instead.



Heck no. I'm _Effert._ Yessiree Bob. ..._Lakkuf Effert_. 

Least that's what my Sifu used to call me. He called me other things too. Sometimes he called me _Steef_. As in, "_No, no no! This is always the problem. In Wing Tsun you must become much softer. You think that you are soft. Actually you are not. You are always so *Steef!* Ha ha ha. And it *so funny*. Because that is your name. Steef! (Steve). Ha ha ha ha." _-- actual comments by my old Sifu that he often repeated, and never failed to find amusing. Never did quite get that Chinese sense of humor.

Now back to the topic. Another thing I never did quite get: The argument that MMA guys can't fight because they train with rules that make their sport reasonably safe. Don't we all train with rules and procedures that makes our training reasonably safe? Anybody who _doesn't_ think a good MMA fighter who tests his stuff against determined opponents on a regular basis can adapt and apply his skills in a fight, is living in a different reality than the one I know.

For me comparing MMA to WC is apples and oranges. For many reasons including age, injuries, and personal inclination, I could never practice MMA effecively. A BJJ instructor and friend even advised me that it wasn't a good idea for me to train in his gym. Too much chance of injury with my joint issues.

...But I can still train WC. And I think I have a good chance of making it work if I ever have to. But not in a fair fight. Instead, I'd have to be devious, cunning, and use "misdirection" and pre-emption, or the "element of surprise". Then explode. You have to hurt somebody in an instant and then, if possible, get the heck out of there. Yes, _run away_. Not the same as fighting against a well matched opponent in the ring or cage. 

Now can an MMA fighter apply the same tactics? _Absolutely, _and probably better. Although the element of surprise is a bit tougher to pull off when you're built like a brick outhouse, have a shaved head and tattoos up and down your arms! When I come up against people like that, I work hard at being friendly. :uhyeah:


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 8, 2013)

This is a bit late, but have to post an answer to Steve's question, as it is a different answer than storm gave.
There is a difference between combat fighting and combat sports. Most people, even those thinking they practice "combat fighting" (although im not a fan of these terms) are really practicing "combat sports". Reason being, they learn to apply the principles in sparring with generally equal rules. That means that, even if they theorize with "combat fighting", they apply and practice "combat sports". 
Also, many "combat sports" still teach those 'deadlly, illegal moves', in order to make sure the practitioners know not to use them. So those people also fall under combat fight theorizers, combat sport practitioners, just less of the theorizing. 
The only ways to be a "combat fighting style" is to apply in real fights, which is the best way theoretically, but an instructor cant exactly to tell you to go out and fight people, since that's pretty dangerous in a lot of ways, simulate fights, which doesnt really help with adrenaline, but otherwise is pretty good, or sparring where one person is at a severe disadvantage/has to end fight quickly or in a certain way (if submission is being taught for LEO's or similar), which isn't ideal, but still acceptable.
If you do any of those things, then you COULD be practicing a "combat fighting style"
This is all IMO, none of it is fact or represents my art/my arts view/any of my instructors views. Feel free to disagree vocally with anything I said, would be interested in peoples thoughts on my definitions.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2013)

geezer said:


> Heck no. I'm _Effert._ Yessiree Bob. ..._Lakkuf Effert_.
> 
> Least that's what my Sifu used to call me. He called me other things too. Sometimes he called me _Steef_. As in, "_No, no no! This is always the problem. In Wing Tsun you must become much softer. You think that you are soft. Actually you are not. You are always so *Steef!* Ha ha ha. And it *so funny*. Because that is your name. Steef! (Steve). Ha ha ha ha." _-- actual comments by my old Sifu that he often repeated, and never failed to find amusing. Never did quite get that Chinese sense of humor.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, Geezer.  Thanks.  The bolded part is where I was headed.  Exactly the same questions I have.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 8, 2013)

Steve said:


> Excellent post, Geezer.  Thanks.  The bolded part is where I was headed.  Exactly the same questions I have.



you were headed towards Steef! and so funny? Not sure i understand your point, if that was the focus of it...


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> you were headed towards Steef! and so funny? Not sure i understand your point, if that was the focus of it...


LOL..  okay.  I missed that the poster had bolded some areas himself.   

This is what I was referring to:  _Another thing I never did quite get: The argument that MMA guys can't fight because they train with rules that make their sport reasonably safe. _*Don't we all train with rules and procedures that makes our training reasonably safe?*

This entire passage, but specifically the bolded question.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 8, 2013)

Steve said:


> LOL..  okay.  I missed that the poster had bolded some areas himself.
> 
> This is what I was referring to:  _Another thing I never did quite get: The argument that MMA guys can't fight because they train with rules that make their sport reasonably safe. _*Don't we all train with rules and procedures that makes our training reasonably safe?*
> 
> This entire passage, but specifically the bolded question.



Yeah, i know. Just messing with ya. If you look at my post, i basically answered that question with yes (if i recall correctly, not rereading my own post to see exactly what I'm saying.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2013)

Argus said:


> Steve,
> 
> I don't know much about BJJ, but I thought the gracie brothers made some interesting comments on this subject:
> 
> ...


Some great points.  

I'm not sure I would agree with all of your thoughts on sports, like MMA.  For example, you say that the goal of sports is to prolong the combat, and you speak about a feeling out period.  It sounds like you're confusing strategy with sport, and then drawing some pretty sketchy generalizations about the nature of sport. In every sport, I would agree that the rules shape the training.  however, the goal of any sport is to win.  And in MMA, the techniques used are designed to finish the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible.  Each fight and each fighter will go into a match with a strategy in mind. Some will be more aggressive, while others will not.  

Point, though, is that this isn't unique to sport.  I would say that fights are the same way.  Not every situation is the same.  In fact, outside of a sport, there are an almost infinite number of variables to contend with.  To sum it all up as "a serious fight, in which two opponents close very quickly and violently" is a gross oversimplification.  

So, to sum up.  I agree completely that rules are there to keep people safe.  I also agree that a sport is questionable at best when it is too dangerous.  Other encounters, whether it's a mugging, a bar fight or whatever,  may or may not be.  Could be anything.

At the end of your post, you acknowledge that you have no actual experience with fighting, and that's it's all just theory.  Very wise, I think.  It's tough to know, and certainly training with people whom you deem credible is important.  I respect that.   So, I ask you the question that geezer put to the group:  Don't we all train with rules and procedures that makes our training reasonably safe?  In other words, on a practical level, how is your training any more realistic than any other?  Isn't it still practiced with your safety in mind?  Isn't it still taught with rules and procedures in place to make it less lethal to its students?

One last thing, what makes you think that the arts trained by people who compete in combat sports are effective because they're simple?  You said, train simple and effective arts not for the sake of the art, but simply as a quick and effective method of learning to win the game against other very similar opponents with the same goals and methods."  Not sure I can go along with that one, either.  My coach loves the art of jiu jitsu.  His coach does, too.  They're lifelong practitioners.  I have another friend, also a black belt in Jiu Jitsu who loves the art of BJJ AND the art of MMA.  MMA is a complex, multifaceted martial art in its own right now, and the people who teach it are passionate martial artists who love the craft.  You might find that you have more in common with them than you believe.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> But the techniques are used , they just don't get used at full power on a live human being.
> 
> They get used on one of these , you can't hurt the Mook Jong , you can't kill it , it doesn't get tired and it never has to stop training to go home to it's wife and kids.


Sounds good.  But, I'm not sure I understand.  Are you suggesting that this is the same as using the techniques on a live human being?  It looks like a great training aid.  Do you think it's more than that?


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> I'm not saying techniques are watered down but the particular art would be sense you are detracting from it to fit into a frame of a sport. Engaging someone with no rules is a regular fight, yes I've been in a few of those.  I fail to see what that has to do with anything.  I think you believe I am attempting to bash mma, which is not the case.


Not at all, and I want to be clear that I'm not feeling attacked by you at all.  I'm also not trying to attack you.  This is a subject I've thought about before.  I know I'm pushing you a little with the questions I'm asking, but I'm really just trying to see how you answer some questions I've mulled over, through the years.  

So, you think that the art suffers as a result of being included in a sport.  Correct?  That combat sports are watered down as a whole?  



StormShadow said:


> I get it that you are likely being facetious in your response but what he is saying is that the techniques are meant to end a fight quickly.  When it is the appropriate time for attack, I would be trying to injure horrifically.  That's what wing chun was meant for.  To end the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible.  This is what I believe survive is saying.


Do you think that in an MMA fight, they are trying to do anything other than end the fight as quickly as possible?  It's true that there are many rules, required in order to allow MMA to become a sanctioned sporting event in most of the USA and other countries.  However, the kicks to the joints or head are full power.  The punches are 100%.  The grappling is 100%.

I've said before, and still believe to be true, that if I had to pick my perfect wing man for a dangerous situation, I'd want a friendly MMAist who has common sense and good situational awareness.  In other words, I want the guy who can fight when necessary, and the self control to not fight otherwise.


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## mook jong man (Apr 8, 2013)

Steve said:


> Sounds good.  But, I'm not sure I understand.  Are you suggesting that this is the same as using the techniques on a live human being?  It looks like a great training aid.  Do you think it's more than that?



Not the same as a human being in the sense that the wooden dummy doesn't fight back.
But it is heavy which tests your stance , and because it is mounted on rails it springs back at you when hit , teaching you to maintain the angle of your arms and transfer your body mass into the dummy.

 The three arms and the leg also present as obstacles which must be negotiated and controlled  in order to hit the proper targets.
A lot of the more dangerous techniques which would severely injure , if not kill your partner like latching the back of the neck and edge of the hand strikes to the throat can be done full power on the dummy.

As a training aid it is up there with the best , but of course it can't replace having a live partner.
The biggest problem I find after training extended periods on the wooden dummy is that when you do go back to training with a live partner you sometimes have a lack of control with them and use the same force as you did on the dummy.


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## StormShadow (Apr 9, 2013)

Steve said:


> Not at all, and I want to be clear that I'm not feeling attacked by you at all.  I'm also not trying to attack you.  This is a subject I've thought about before.  I know I'm pushing you a little with the questions I'm asking, but I'm really just trying to see how you answer some questions I've mulled over, through the years.
> 
> So, you think that the art suffers as a result of being included in a sport.  Correct?  That combat sports are watered down as a whole?
> 
> ...



In the frame of MMA, the art is being detracted from in order to fit into that realm. The traditional martial arts that are compiled to create a well versed mma fighter must be water down since they too poccess attributes which are designed to severely injure someone. Doing this is to regard the rules of mma. Now, you have mma schools specifically set up to train to compete in mma.  In this case, I can see attributes of different arts being lost and thus that ability to be totally street effective.  In other words, you train for the realm you wish to use your knowledge. 

I watch MMA myself. The rules are set up so a fighter is not cause horrific injury like breaking a thigh bone or a palm strike to the throat.  For me, my wing man would be an experienced street fighter.  Since he would have (in a sense) trained in that realm. Or an experienced wing chun practioner that has had a few street fights 

I just wanted to be sure you did not feel like I was trying to attack you or mma.  Everyone opinions are welcome and we can all learn from each other.  We are all practioners of martial arts.


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## Steve (Apr 9, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> In the frame of MMA, the art is being detracted from in order to fit into that realm. The traditional martial arts that are compiled to create a well versed mma fighter must be water down since they too poccess attributes which are designed to severely injure someone. Doing this is to regard the rules of mma. Now, you have mma schools specifically set up to train to compete in mma.  In this case, I can see attributes of different arts being lost and thus that ability to be totally street effective.  In other words, you train for the realm you wish to use your knowledge.


So, if a person is a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and an accomplished wrestler, you are saying that his arts have been watered down?

Here's a question.  While the sport necessarily restricts the competition, in your opinion, how does it restrict the training?  What I mean is, if someone trains in a style of Karate AND competes in MMA, is their karate necessarily watered down?

If someone competes in WTF events, is their TKD necessarily watered down?  Just curious. 

I'll say in advance that my experience is that it is not, at least, not necessarily.  Every person's martial arts journey is unique.  Some people train in MMA, which is, IMO, becoming its own distinct style of Martial Arts, as complex and well developed as any other.  But, others train to a very high level in several arts, using MMA to bridge the gaps.  





> I watch MMA myself. The rules are set up so a fighter is not cause horrific injury like breaking a thigh bone or a palm strike to the throat.  For me, my wing man would be an experienced street fighter.  Since he would have (in a sense) trained in that realm. Or an experienced wing chun practioner that has had a few street fights
> 
> I just wanted to be sure you did not feel like I was trying to attack you or mma.  Everyone opinions are welcome and we can all learn from each other.  We are all practioners of martial arts.


Would you be surprised to learn that there are no prohibitions on strikes to the thigh? Even ones that might cause horrific injury?  In fact, there are no prohibitions on attacks to the knees or elbows.


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## StormShadow (Apr 9, 2013)

Steve said:


> So, if a person is a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and an accomplished wrestler, you are saying that his arts have been watered down?
> 
> Here's a question.  While the sport necessarily restricts the competition, in your opinion, how does it restrict the training?  What I mean is, if someone trains in a style of Karate AND competes in MMA, is their karate necessarily watered down?
> 
> ...



In you first question, you misunderstood what I was saying.  I gave the example of someone training in a purely mma school in order to compete in mma.  Yes, some techniques will likely be sacrificed as they do not fit in the mma realm.  As opposed to someone with belts in different disciplines who learned those arts and everything they had to offer.  That is what I was trying to convey and to point it seems we would agree somewhat at least on that.


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## Argus (Apr 9, 2013)

Steve said:


> Some great points.
> 
> I'm not sure I would agree with all of your thoughts on sports, like MMA.  For example, you say that the goal of sports is to prolong the combat, and you speak about a feeling out period.  It sounds like you're confusing strategy with sport, and then drawing some pretty sketchy generalizations about the nature of sport. In every sport, I would agree that the rules shape the training.  however, the goal of any sport is to win.  And in MMA, the techniques used are designed to finish the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible.  Each fight and each fighter will go into a match with a strategy in mind. Some will be more aggressive, while others will not.
> 
> ...



I realize that I am oversimplifying and generalizing. But wouldn't you agree that these are sound points in most contexts? Consider the difference in context.

Combat may not, and usually will not be by consent. The fact that I even consent to combat in the first place changes the entire nature of it. In sport fighting, especially in striking sports, participants actively stay out of contact and keep their distance, carefully striking in and out of range. Unless your opponent consents to this kind of fight, there won't be a fight. If you want to hang out at a distance, I'm free to ignore you. I'll just turn around and run the other way. This is common sense, of course, so no-one who is assaulting you is ever going to engage in distance fighting. In sport fighting, I don't have to engage my opponent straight away. I don't have to stay on top of him. I can be more cautious; he isn't going to try to escape, call for help, or pick up a weapon. Moreover, the same levels of fear, aggression, and adrenaline won't be present. 

In regards to prolonging fights, just look at boxing. The rules and equipment serve to artificially prolong the fight quite a lot. You're wearing big padded gloves, you have rounds and timers, and you're able to do things like clinch and hang on to your opponent while you catch your breath. Of course, some sports are better about this than others. However, the very nature and context of the sport often serve to prolong it. Usually, the fight is prolonged by virtue of the fact that both participants study the exact same arts in-depth. If you're rolling with someone in BJJ who is experienced, in contrast to someone who has never even done BJJ, won't the fight last a lot longer because he is able to fight you with your own style? Now, what if someone who has only done grappling confronts someone who has only done a striking art? That fight will end much more quickly; either the grappler will get in, and take down the striker, or the striker will knock out the grappler before he can get there. One way or the other, the fight will be over pretty quickly. 

My only point is that there are more general issues that have a profound shape on the context of the fight. Let's consider another. You're an experience BJJ practitioner, so perhaps you already have an opinion on this. BJJ interests me as a sport, but I would be very careful about how I use it in an actual fight. Going to the ground in a sport context isn't too dangerous. It's just you and your opponent, in a controlled environment, and on a mat. But what about on the street? Concrete and pavement alone is reason not to do many techniques that we see in MMA and UFC, such as diving down and going after someone's legs or ankles. Moreover, going to the ground leaves you very vulnerable and unable to move or escape if you need to, which are very important considerations if there are other people present, or possible weapons involved.

So, that's kind of what I'm getting at. Sports do well to develop very specific sets of skill, but sometimes they are too specialized or limited in their focus. Just take target shooting as an example. Many target shooters will modify their rifles to make the barrels extremely heavy, and put scopes with insane magnification on them. Is this practical for combat and self defense? Far from. But because the sport is only concerned with hitting the target, it works. Another example would be Nascar. These cars are very specially designed. They're extremely low to the ground, and are only designed to turn in one direction, with very limited rate of turn in the other. These vehicles are the absolute best at what they do, which is going around a flat, circular track. But they would be quite useless in any other context. 

MMA is probably better in these regards than most sports, but there are still very important factors to consider that limit its scope.

My comment about "arts trained by people who compete in combat sports being effective because they're simple" was mainly in reference to MMA. While I realize that this is a generalization, and that not all people who compete in MMA fall into this category, a whole lot of them are not so much interested in martial arts as they are in fighting. Just look at any number of MMA gyms. They usually teach integrated courses comprising techniques from BJJ, Boxing, Kickboxing/Muay Thai, and sometimes bits and peices from arts such as Karate, JKD, and Judo. So they're not studying these arts individually and in-depth, but rather just adding techniques and ideas to their fighting repitoire. And for this, the simple arts (or, simplified arts) are most effective, because someone who just wants to learn to fight doesn't have the time and effort to become proficient in a wide range of traditional martial arts. Better to learn a simple, easy to apply art such as boxing or muay thai than to pursue something more traditional that would take a lot more time and experience to learn to apply effectively. Of course, this is usually not the case with more specialized competitions; anyone competing in a Karate or BJJ tournament is going to be there for the art, most likely. But even in Karate, for example, many Karate schools are getting further and further away from the art, and are more just focused on sparring - treating the art more like kick-boxing than a traditional martial art.

One person who I really enjoy studying in my art is a man by the name of Wong Shun Leung. He came to Wing Chun already as an accomplished fighter, and a boxer. This was during the mid 50's when the tradition of "beimo" or "challenge fights" still existed in the culture of Chinese martial arts. And though he often fought in the ring in his early years when he practiced boxing, it was the no-equipment, no-rules challenge fights that he was really interested in. He came to Wing Chun after witnessing it in a challenge fight, and then visiting Yip Man's school and having a go with Yip Man and one of his students. From there, he went on to become one of Yip Man's top students, and probably more than anyone else, made it as well-known as it is today (at least in Asia) by means of his many challenge fights in Hong Kong. He was very intelligent, and very pragmatic, and I feel he had a better understanding both of combat in general, and of his own art, than most martial artists (both within and without Wing Chun). Most interestingly, because of his background as a fighter and a boxer, he often spoke of the differences between sport and combat. So, if you're at all interested in this topic, I would recommend researching him. 

Here's a few clips dealing with him on youtube, if you're interested:









You can find many great, detailed interviews with him and his students. So, even if most of us haven't experienced combat ourselves, I feel that we can learn a lot and get an accurate impression of it from those who have.


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## Steve (Apr 9, 2013)

Okay.  First, before moving on, I want to say that I appreciate the response.  Interesting discussion.





Argus said:


> My only point is that there are more general issues that have a profound shape on the context of the fight. Let's consider another. You're an experience BJJ practitioner, so perhaps you already have an opinion on this. BJJ interests me as a sport, but I would be very careful about how I use it in an actual fight. Going to the ground in a sport context isn't too dangerous. It's just you and your opponent, in a controlled environment, and on a mat. But what about on the street? Concrete and pavement alone is reason not to do many techniques that we see in MMA and UFC, such as diving down and going after someone's legs or ankles. Moreover, going to the ground leaves you very vulnerable and unable to move or escape if you need to, which are very important considerations if there are other people present, or possible weapons involved.


I agree with you that sport will have an impact on shaping the fight, and your conclusions seem reasonable to me.  I do want to point out that situational awareness is the key here.  As a grappler, I will usually not want to take the fight to the ground in a self defense situation.  But what if I'm the one with buddies?  If I'm in a fight and I'm confident in my grappling skills, I can pull guard in a fight and hold you there while my buddies kick you in the head.  Point isn't that this is a good idea; it's that there are no hard and fast rules for a random encounter.  





> My comment about "arts trained by people who compete in combat sports being effective because they're simple" was mainly in reference to MMA. While I realize that this is a generalization, and that not all people who compete in MMA fall into this category, a whole lot of them are not so much interested in martial arts as they are in fighting.


Yeah.  I'm not sure I'm with you on this.  There are a lot of kids looking to make a career out of MMA, but that's a very different thing than kids looking to fight.  





> Just look at any number of MMA gyms. They usually teach integrated courses comprising techniques from BJJ, Boxing, Kickboxing/Muay Thai, and sometimes bits and peices from arts such as Karate, JKD, and Judo.


Not in my experience.  Typically, an MMA gym will offer classes in wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai, all taught by high level instructors in each, in addition to MMA, where these different disciplines are integrated into the sport context of MMA.  Some schools might teach Catch Wrestling or Submission Wrestling in lieu of BJJ.  Some might teach boxing instead of Muay Thai.  There are different formulas in play.  But any school not doing this is questionable.  





> So they're not studying these arts individually and in-depth, but rather just adding techniques and ideas to their fighting repitoire.


Actually, this might surprise you, but the typical MMA student is incredibly dedicated to the craft.  Often, they compete not just in MMA events, but also BJJ/Sub Wrestling events, sometimes sanctioned Judo events AND in Muay Thai or Boxing.  The typical MMA student who is interested in a potential career in MMA trains 5 to 6 times per week.  

On another note, how do you define studying an art in depth?  I would say that training diligently, several times per week, seeking to improve technique and add ideas to a fighting repertoire is a pretty good definition of "in depth" training.


> One person who I really enjoy studying in my art is a man by the name of Wong Shun Leung. He came to Wing Chun already as an accomplished fighter, and a boxer. This was during the mid 50's when the tradition of "beimo" or "challenge fights" still existed in the culture of Chinese martial arts. And though he often fought in the ring in his early years when he practiced boxing, it was the no-equipment, no-rules challenge fights that he was really interested in. He came to Wing Chun after witnessing it in a challenge fight, and then visiting Yip Man's school and having a go with Yip Man and one of his students. From there on, he became one of Yip Man's top students, and probably more than anyone else, made it as popular as it is today by means of his many challenge fights in Hong Kong. He was very intelligent, and very pragmatic, and I feel he had a better understanding both of combat in general, and of his own art, than most martial artists (both within and without Wing Chun). Most interestingly, because of his background as a fighter and a boxer, he often spoke of the differences between sport and combat. So, if you're at all interested in this topic, I would recommend researching him.
> 
> Here's a few clips dealing with him on youtube, if you're interested:
> 
> ...


This ties into another thread, but the question fits.  Are you learning directly from Wong Shun Leung?  If not, how many times removed from Wong Shun Leung are you?  You seem to be acknowledging that the direct fighting experience of Wong Shun Leung is important, so then that leads me to wonder how you can be sure that what you're learning will work.  In BJJ, there are legends of the art (as there are in every art, I'm sure).  Rickson Gracie is one such legend.  He is amazing, a total badass (for lack of a better word).  Say I train with Rickson Gracie.  He's fought in more challenge matches than I can imagine.  I've never fought in one.  So, he teaches me a technique.  I train that technique diligently.  Does that mean I am now a badass by proxy?  I trained under a legend.  Can I now presume that his legend has rubbed off on me?    

Now, I train someone.  I'm teaching him the techniques taught to me by a legend.  He trains diligently and perfects his technique.  Is he now a badass?  

What if this last person trains you.  You're 3 generations removed from Rickson Gracie.  Your lineage is pretty damned solid.  He's a legit badass, who trained your instructor's instructor personally.  Wow... that's impressive.  But, personally, I'd say whether the techniques really work FOR YOU is as much about who you are and what you've done as it is about the techniques you've learned.

One last thought.  Even in a beimo, aren't there some rules?  Wouldn't all of the things you said about competition also apply to these challenge matches?


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## Argus (Apr 9, 2013)

> Steve

Ah, interesting. You've kind of changed my impression of MMA here. You see, the schools that I've checked out locally aren't like that at all. They just teach some integrated system, and don't have instructors who teach the arts individually. So, I wasn't impressed, and I guess I kind of assumed that all MMA schools were this way.

I'm not even training in Wong Shun Leung's lineage. My teacher, and even his teacher, though highly respected, are somewhat far removed from any real combat experience. So you raise a very good point here; and it's something I'm completely aware of. Even in class, I sometimes question the way we practice certain things, and I'm sure that some practical knowledge and understanding has been lost along the way. But the core of what is taught; the forms, the structure and techniques, and chisau, is very good. So, I'm confident that if nothing else, I'm building a solid base. And at some point though, if I continue to study this art seriously, I would like to train under someone like David Peterson. I realize that not everyone can do that, but I'm fairly young and uncommitted right now, so I have the freedom to travel, and intend on it anyway.

But even if you aren't of a particular lineage, and you haven't studied under a particular teacher, I think that you can expand your thinking and understanding by researching and learning about them. It's not all about technique - because as you say, technique will vary from individual to individual. What I like about Wing Chun, and especially Wong Shun Leung's teaching, though, is that concepts and principles are more important than the techniques. Without adhering to the concepts and principles behind the system, the techniques won't do you any good; the techniques themselves, while important to do well, leave more room for modification between individuals. In this sense, Wing Chun is more of a concept-based martial art than a technique-based martial art. This is something that I think all Wing Chun lineages recognize, but in practice, they vary on how much they concentrate on applying principles, and how much they get caught up in techniques.


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## StormShadow (Apr 10, 2013)

Friendly sparring session between wing chun and mma... The wing chun's fighter stance is very elongated.


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## Steve (Apr 10, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Friendly sparring session between wing chun and mma... The wing chun's fighter stance is very elongated.



Fun video, but to be clear, more appropriately labeled wing chun v TKD.  

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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 10, 2013)

Steve said:


> Fun video, but to be clear, more appropriately labeled wing chun v TKD.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Hey! he tried to get close...twice...and failed...but still! Those attempted partial throws were clearly judo!


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## Steve (Apr 10, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> Hey! he tried to get close...twice...and failed...but still! Those attempted partial throws were clearly judo!



Can you be more specific?  I watched it again, and don't see anything but what looks like TKD to me.  

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## StormShadow (Apr 11, 2013)

It's definitely TKD mostly but at 58 secs you can see him try to come in to possibly grapple and takedown.  The wing chun guy redirected his force and went around him.


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## Argus (Apr 11, 2013)

I wasn't under the impression that TKD and Judo are very common in MMA - are they?


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## Steve (Apr 11, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> It's definitely TKD mostly but at 58 secs you can see him try to come in to possibly grapple and takedown.  The wing chun guy redirected his force and went around him.


Okay.  Let's be real here.   I took another look and don't see anything I'd call even grappling.  In fact, I think you subconsciously recognize that it's not anything really recognizable.   It's, at best, "try[ing] to come in to possibly grapple."  The most generous you or I can be is to say that it's _trying _to _possibly _grapple.  Which isn't the same as grappling, and certainly isn't anything you could identify as Judo. 



Argus said:


> I wasn't under the impression that TKD and Judo are very common in MMA - are they?


They're there, but not prevalent.  

Another thing to point out is that MMA is a sport.  Combining two martial arts styles is not MMA.  It might be mixing martial arts, but it's not Mixed Martial Arts.  So, even were this a guy who was proficient in both judo and TKD (which is debatable), it would still not be MMA.


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## Steve (Apr 11, 2013)

I thought I'd add just a little more detail to the grappling issue.  My concern is that you guys mistake this for an actual attempt to grapple.

At :59 seconds into the video, we see this:




Notice that the "grappler" has not changed levels.  He's bent over at the waist, his legs are straight and his head is down.  Also note that there is no penetration as he attempts to close the gap.  While, certainly, some of that is because the WC guy simply backed up, I don't think anyone will argue that the attempt was a little half assed.



In the wrestling image below, you can see a few keys.  First, the aggressor is bending at the knees.  When he changes levels, he is dropping with his back straight and his head is up.  The power for his takedown is through his legs.



Couldn't find a good picture, but Judo without a gi is a little different.  In Judo, one still doesn't bend over.  The take downs from judo in nogi tend to be mostly upper body throws.  Look at a Rhonda Rousey fight for some terrific examples of upper body control followed by a hip toss, a trip or possibly an ankle pick.  This is because in judo, while wearing a gi, breaking the grips to change levels is a much different thing.  But even so, the goal is to maintain a solid stance and avoid having your balance compromised.  You will never see a judoka, in a gi or not, bend over and lunge at an opponent's waist like this. 

I hope this helps.


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