# Long form 3



## Headhunter (Dec 21, 2017)

So saw this on YouTube I'd like to hear opinions from kenpo guys or just anyone who understands forms and the way they should be done.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 21, 2017)

I don't understand some of the short strikes and redirects that are being done.  Some of the things looked "fishy" to me.  In other words, more flash than function.  Like the "hand clap."  Not sure if that's a conditioning thing going on or not.  The one hand behind the back is another. I'm assuming that simulates someone pinning his arm behind him.

You'll probably get multiple responses from people who do forms.

For me in Jow Ga Kung Fu forms simulate combinations and techniques that would be used in fighting. This means I can literally pull a piece or combination directly from a form and actually use it in a real fight.  The forms also factor incoming strikes.  

From an outsider looking in.  I don't see anything wrong with how he is approaching the form.  But I don't do kempo and I didn't understand all of the techniques being used.  

Was there a specific thing about the form that makes you ask for opinions.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 21, 2017)

i really like the way that form incorporates Irish step dance and hand jive movements together.
but seriously i think (my opinion on this really doesnt  matter because i do not know the form) that to me i feel that he has some power in his actions but is trying to go to fast.  this may be the tempo he was taught but the end result is that it seems many of the actions are cut to short with no extension and there seems to be many poor angles due to the focus on fast.  i used to do a form called Hansuki that had a very fast pace and it was always very common to see abbreviated strikes.
was there something you see?

over all as a form i am not a fan of this type of kata.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 21, 2017)

It wasn't terrible, but he is too isolated, in his motion, if you ask me. He trained to be this way, the question is why.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 21, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> It wasn't terrible, but he is too isolated, in his motion, if you ask me. He trained to be this way, the question is why.


what do you mean by isolated,  doing one action at a time?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 21, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> end result is that it seems many of the actions are cut to short with no extension


I was thinking the same thing as well but not being a Kenpo student.  I couldn't tell if that was normal for kenpo.  Usually with forms we expect things to be bigger than what they would be in a real fight.  Normally there is a big focus on completing the technique which is something that I didn't see here.  After watching the video.  I went back to see if I could find another example of the same form. Many because I'm curious about what the "hand clapping and wavy hands" were about.  I couldn't find other examples.  But I did see similar forms that were more of what I'm used to seeing and doing in my own training.

When I train forms, I will blast through the form for cardio purposes.  But when I train for speed.  I do the form in bursts.  It becomes clear which strikes are single striking techniques and which ones are combinations.  In the OP's video he just blasts through it but I don't know if that's intentional or not.  His form 3 seems to be a combination of the short form 3 and some other form.  This was a big help in explaining "what's going on"  The hand behind the back is still confusing.  I'm not understanding the mechanics of it.  I'm trying to picture myself locking his arm behind his back and I'm not seeing the strike.  Maybe if the person tries to lock the arm and follow the arm as the person tries to spin out of it.





I would be interested in hearing what the kenpo people have to say about the form.  I always like to know how close or how far off my analysis of other systems is.  I kind of think of it as me analyzing my opponent and trying to figure out the dangers by analyzing his movement.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 21, 2017)

for a comparison look at this clip.  this is done slow but in it we can see the extension of the arms and pronounced correct stances.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 21, 2017)

Here are some application concepts that are in that form 3.  There are a bunch of other techniques as well but you'll recognize them when you see them.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 21, 2017)

I am an ex-kenpo guy, having earned shodan in the Tracy lineage.  I learned the same form as part of the curriculum, but there are some differences because this fellow is from a different lineage, but also tracing back to Ed Parker.

To address a comment or two that were made, kenpo forms are largely constructed with a series of pre-choreographed self-defense scenarios.  So each scenario is based on the idea that if a bad guy attacks you like THIS, then we defend by doing THAT.  And yes, the arm behind the back is a defense against a hammerlock.  A number of these scenarios are strung together to create the forms, in many cases, including this one.

I am not a fan of most of the kenpo forms.  Part of my dislike is in how they tend to be done by most people, as far as I have seen.  People tend to rush through them, speeding to the end as if they are in a race, too focused on what is coming next and not enough attention to what they are doing at the moment, and I think that speaks to the quality of instruction that is going on in a lot of cases.  Stance changes are done divorced from actual power generation in their techniques.  People simply turn and hit a stance, but don’t accomplish anything in the process.  Stance changes need to accomplish something, they need to be used to rotate the torso and drive technique, and not just as a posture.  but in my opinion most people that I have seen simply hit the posture.

As far as the forms themselves, it is my opinion that they are largely poorly designed.  Many of the self-defense scenarios are ill-conceived, not terribly functional, unrealistic, and can be downright bad ideas.  

The transitions from one scenario to the next that are found in the forms often feel forced and unnatural, and can put you into awkward positions from which efficient and effective movement becomes difficult or impossible.  In some cases they feel like examples of what not to do.

That is my opinion of the kenpo forms as a whole, and most examples of them, including this one.


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## Headhunter (Dec 21, 2017)

Okay so my opinion is it's not good he's rushing through the motions not putting any emphasis on the forward bows or any stances. Yeah it's good hand speed but he's missing a number of the fundamentals of the form and this guys a 5th dan. Tbh I've seen brown belts do it better


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Okay so my opinion is it's not good he's rushing through the motions not putting any emphasis on the forward bows or any stances. Yeah it's good hand speed but he's missing a number of the fundamentals of the form and this guys a 5th dan. Tbh I've seen brown belts do it better


I would call that, no body, but yeah.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 21, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> what do you mean by isolated,  doing one action at a time?


I mean he isn't using center line, and step through, properly.


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## Headhunter (Dec 21, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was thinking the same thing as well but not being a Kenpo student.  I couldn't tell if that was normal for kenpo.  Usually with forms we expect things to be bigger than what they would be in a real fight.  Normally there is a big focus on completing the technique which is something that I didn't see here.  After watching the video.  I went back to see if I could find another example of the same form. Many because I'm curious about what the "hand clapping and wavy hands" were about.  I couldn't find other examples.  But I did see similar forms that were more of what I'm used to seeing and doing in my own training.
> 
> When I train forms, I will blast through the form for cardio purposes.  But when I train for speed.  I do the form in bursts.  It becomes clear which strikes are single striking techniques and which ones are combinations.  In the OP's video he just blasts through it but I don't know if that's intentional or not.  His form 3 seems to be a combination of the short form 3 and some other form.  This was a big help in explaining "what's going on"  The hand behind the back is still confusing.  I'm not understanding the mechanics of it.  I'm trying to picture myself locking his arm behind his back and I'm not seeing the strike.  Maybe if the person tries to lock the arm and follow the arm as the person tries to spin out of it.
> 
> ...


I know some kenpo guys use bigger than normal movements but I stick with normal height as what's the point in training one thing in techique and another in form.

Also the move with the arm behind the back is from a techique called locked wing. It's a hammer lock. The attacked basically grabs the arm and tries to pull it up your back and then you step into him with the elbow.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 21, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Stance changes are done divorced from actual power generation in their techniques. People simply turn and hit a stance, but don’t accomplish anything in the process. Stance changes need to accomplish something, they need to be used to rotate the torso and drive technique, and not just as a posture. but in my opinion most people that I have seen simply hit the posture.


I saw this as well to when comparing it to other similar Kenpo form 3 videos out there.  Some had a clear purpose in their stance and others had a stance that was more like a dance.  It's not just a Kenpo thing as I've seen it in other styles to.  

For me, once a saw a person truly drive power from the stance it just stuck with me as something I should do in my own forms.  There is a noticeable difference between those who can do it and those who just go through the motion of the stance.  Those who drive power from the stance tend to look as if they are heavy.  They move quickly but not lightly. When they stomp you can feel it in the floor.  My Sifu once stomped the pavement while under a pavilion in the park.  The stomp wasn't a high pitch slapping sound of a food hitting the ground.  I had a heavy bass sound and I could feel the vibration in the ground from the stomp.  

When people drive that stance their punches have a solid look look.  It's fast but it also looks heavy and solid.  It doesn't have that light look that people do with jabs that tap.  Their strikes clearly look like something you want to avoid vs trying to stop it with force or allow it to land.



Headhunter said:


> The attacked basically grabs the arm and tries to pull it up your back and then you step into him with the elbow.


I was thinking this, but wasn't sure because it looked off.  I guess the way that he put it behind his back vs turning in a way as if someone was actually trying to lock the arm.  We have have a similar technique that is done in our empty 2 man set but the arm isn't just place behind the back it's twisted behind the back.  The guy in the OP's videos just puts his hand behind his back as if he is trying to hide something and it just made the mechanics of it all look off.

Thanks for clearing that up thought about what was going on.


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## Headhunter (Dec 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I saw this as well to when comparing it to other similar Kenpo form 3 videos out there.  Some had a clear purpose in their stance and others had a stance that was more like a dance.  It's not just a Kenpo thing as I've seen it in other styles to.
> 
> For me, once a saw a person truly drive power from the stance it just stuck with me as something I should do in my own forms.  There is a noticeable difference between those who can do it and those who just go through the motion of the stance.  Those who drive power from the stance tend to look as if they are heavy.  They move quickly but not lightly. When they stomp you can feel it in the floor.  My Sifu once stomped the pavement while under a pavilion in the park.  The stomp wasn't a high pitch slapping sound of a food hitting the ground.  I had a heavy bass sound and I could feel the vibration in the ground from the stomp.
> 
> ...


I hate forms in competitions because in my eyes it ruins it. It makes people dance around like idiots basically destroying everything the form teaches just for a silly trophy and then people see that and think that's what form is meant to be. To me it's no different to shadow boxing that's how I've always explained them.


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## Headhunter (Dec 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I saw this as well to when comparing it to other similar Kenpo form 3 videos out there.  Some had a clear purpose in their stance and others had a stance that was more like a dance.  It's not just a Kenpo thing as I've seen it in other styles to.
> 
> For me, once a saw a person truly drive power from the stance it just stuck with me as something I should do in my own forms.  There is a noticeable difference between those who can do it and those who just go through the motion of the stance.  Those who drive power from the stance tend to look as if they are heavy.  They move quickly but not lightly. When they stomp you can feel it in the floor.  My Sifu once stomped the pavement while under a pavilion in the park.  The stomp wasn't a high pitch slapping sound of a food hitting the ground.  I had a heavy bass sound and I could feel the vibration in the ground from the stomp.
> 
> ...


Also this is what the technique actually is its a nice technique. Realistically it would end at the first elbow but the rest is just a what if. Like if they block or it missed etc.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> for a comparison look at this clip.  this is done slow but in it we can see the extension of the arms and pronounced correct stances.


He isn’t racing through it and he makes his movement clean and distinct, so that is a big improvement.  There is still a big disconnect between his stances and his upper body.  He turns and hits the stance but doesn’t do any work with the stance change.  It’s better than the guy who is racing through it, but still has a lot to be desired.

I also dislike how the opening salutation takes almost as long as the form itself.  Some of the lineages really overdid that and created a bunch of symbolism that, in my opinion, is meaningless.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 22, 2017)

@Flying Crane 
i think we agree on a lot about kenpo in general.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 22, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> He isn’t racing through it and he makes his movement clean and distinct, so that is a big improvement.  There is still a big disconnect between his stances and his upper body.  He turns and hits the stance but doesn’t do any work with the stance change.  It’s better than the guy who is racing through it, but still has a lot to be desired.
> 
> I also dislike how the opening salutation takes almost as long as the form itself.  Some of the lineages really overdid that and created a bunch of symbolism that, in my opinion, is meaningless.


Actually there is a specific meaning to the salute, and it isn't all that crazy.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Also this is what the technique actually is its a nice technique. Realistically it would end at the first elbow but the rest is just a what if. Like if they block or it missed etc.


It is also realistic to assume, it ain't over til it's over.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> @Flying Crane
> i think we agree on a lot about kenpo in general.


There are a couple of the beginner forms that I think have some potential, but they generally suffer from the same problems I outlined above, in how people tend to do them.  Honestly, if they got some instruction from a good teacher from an appropriate Chinese or Okinawan system with the goal of understanding how to properly use their stances to root and drive their techniques, then some of these forms and some of the rest of the curriculum could be salvaged.  That would also give them some perspective to begin to recognize why the other forms and other parts of the curriculum may not be salvageable.


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## Headhunter (Dec 22, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually there is a specific meaning to the salute, and it isn't all that crazy.


Yes but there's no need to be doing it at the beginning of every single form either


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yes but there's no need to be doing it at the beginning of every single form either


Says you...


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## Headhunter (Dec 22, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Says you...


Well yes says me....go on then why does it need to be done at the beginning of every single form


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well yes says me....go on then why does it need to be done at the beginning of every single form


First off, most people are terrible at it, and can use the practice. It is usually the most complex part of the form.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Also this is what the technique actually is its a nice technique. Realistically it would end at the first elbow but the rest is just a what if. Like if they block or it missed etc.


That takes the "magic" out of it. When I saw some of the forms, it was clear to me that they didn't have this in mind when doing the technique.  It was more like going through the motion vs doing a technique with purpose and understanding.  Unfortunately going through the motions is common as well, as not every application is taught for every technique.  Some teacher will say what it is or what it's used for and leave it at that.  The teacher doesn't show a practical application of a technique.  I like seeing things like this video, especially with the step back to break the root.  I'm a big fan of anything that breaks the opponents structure or root.


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## Headhunter (Dec 23, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> First off, most people are terrible at it, and can use the practice. It is usually the most complex part of the form.


Yeah but really who cares because it's nothing to do with actual fighting so it's irrelevant


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah but really who cares because it's nothing to do with actual fighting so it's irrelevant


Each part of the salutes are supposed to have a purpose/martial applications


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah but really who cares because it's nothing to do with actual fighting so it's irrelevant


That is where you are wrong.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 23, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Each part of the salutes are supposed to have a purpose/martial applications


That is what I was taught.


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## Headhunter (Dec 23, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> That is where you are wrong.


Then explain...you seem to be unable to do that part as I've already asked you to explain but you ignored that.


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## Headhunter (Dec 23, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Each part of the salutes are supposed to have a purpose/martial applications


So preying and making a triangle with your fingers and having your hands back to back has a purpose does it? And I mean an actual purpose relating to combat not symbolism because I know all that explanation.q


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So preying and making a triangle with your fingers and having your hands back to back has a purpose does it? And I mean an actual purpose relating to combat not symbolism because I know all that explanation.q


Yup, combat purpose. For any salute, I was taught the martial application behind each movement. Just like any other movement in a form.


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## Headhunter (Dec 23, 2017)

I think of the biggest problems with the forms from short 3 upwards is the teachers don't teach it as the techniques. I've seen a lot of teachers just show it as one big motion instead of breaking it down techique by techique and looking at that techique and looking at the foot manoeuvres and the hand positions that are actually needed when doing that techique on a body.

One of my favourite exercises when it came to those forms was your surrounded by 4 guys and you do each move of the form on one guy then transition into the next on another as that way you have to do it in a realistic way or it won't work on the person your doing it on.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yes but there's no need to be doing it at the beginning of every single form either


The salute pays respect to the organization and or the founder.  It like you are saying which group you belong to.  If you are going to do a form and put it online then it's really important to do the salute.  Not doing the salute is considered disrespectful. Often times it's different when training but when in public it's done.

Some salutes are for show while others have functional pieces within the salute.  Jow Ga uses functional kung fu pieces within our salute.  There are only 3 movements that are formal non fighting techniques.
This is a Jow Ga salute / bow  at 0:32 along with it's applications. The only part that is non fighting technique is where he puts his fist into this hand. That is the formal bow. Everything else can be used to fight with.





I'm don't know anything about Kenpo but I can only assume that there is an meaning behind the salute that is important to the school.  Generally the students of a school have a duty to represent the school that they train under with high respect in public.  



Headhunter said:


> So preying and making a triangle with your fingers


This is a technique that is used to in Kung Fu to escape a bear hug, while it's only part of the complete technique, it's the most important part because without out it there is no escape. I'm not sure if it serves the same purpose in Kenpo or if the Kenpo ever used it as a technique, but in other systems that praying motion is part of a fighting technique.  It looks like praying but it isn't.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I think of the biggest problems with the forms from short 3 upwards is the teachers don't teach it as the techniques. I've seen a lot of teachers just show it as one big motion instead of breaking it down techique by techique and looking at that techique and looking at the foot manoeuvres and the hand positions that are actually needed when doing that techique on a body.


I agree with this.  I think most teachers do not teach the technique partly because they may not know themselves.   They are teachers but that doesn't mean that they know everything.  There's a lot to martial arts and I realistically don't expect any one teacher to know everything.  I also think that the more a person wants to be able to use the techniques for fighting, the more likely that person will know the meaning.  If a person is only taking martial arts for exercise then the application of that technique will often be lost.  We see this happen with Tai Chi.  Teachers who take tai chi for fitness are probably clueless about a lot of the applications found in the form.


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## Headhunter (Dec 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree with this.  I think most teachers do not teach the technique partly because they may not know themselves.   They are teachers but that doesn't mean that they know everything.  There's a lot to martial arts and I realistically don't expect any one teacher to know everything.  I also think that the more a person wants to be able to use the techniques for fighting, the more likely that person will know the meaning.  If a person is only taking martial arts for exercise then the application of that technique will often be lost.  We see this happen with Tai Chi.  Teachers who take tai chi for fitness are probably clueless about a lot of the applications found in the form.


Well they should do because the techniques are separate techniques that are required for belt levels normally the same as the form is for


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Then explain...you seem to be unable to do that part as I've already asked you to explain but you ignored that.


First of all, the salutation teaches you how to move. If you punch differently, why?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well they should do because the techniques are separate techniques that are required for belt levels normally the same as the form is for


I guess every school is different


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 23, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm don't know anything about Kenpo but I can only assume that there is an meaning behind the salute that is important to the school.


\
well this is where i am going to have to be a buzz kill to the kenpo fans,,you perspective @JowGaWolf  is from a Chinese view point and tradition,  Kenpo is purely an American innovation.  Ed Parker never learnt any forms from Chow.  all of kenpo's forms were created as an after thought to produce more material because Parker ran out of stuff to teach his students. most of the forms were created by James wing woo.  other forms followed from many other teachers along the way.
 the opening of this form is a copy of the movement from an old okinawan form called Kusanku.

Karate Kagami - Notes on the Kata Kanku-sho
_"The precise meaning of Kanku-sho means 'viewing the sky' or 'viewing emptiness', minor version. Here are the kanji:







   is for kan meaning view, look or appearance. 





   is for ku meaning sky, empty or void. You will probably recognise this as the kanji also for kara in karate - empty hand. 





   is for shou meaning little or small."


 
_
there is no application for this action. i guess one could invent something and obviously some one did in kenpo. but to me this action was borrowed from kusanku and added to the kenpo form to give it a feeling of authenticity where non exists.

orginally kenpo had no forms.  then people started creating some and more and more and more.  kenpo forms are lacking a lot of things that other Chinese and Okinawan forms have.  this is why kenpo forms seem clunky and disjointed.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> \
> well this is where i am going to have to be a buzz kill to the kenpo fans,,you perspective @JowGaWolf  is from a Chinese view point and tradition,  Kenpo is purely an American innovation.  Ed Parker never learnt any forms from Chow.  all of kenpo's forms were created as an after thought to produce more material because Parker ran out of stuff to teach his students. most of the forms were created by James wing woo.  other forms followed from many other teachers along the way.
> the opening of this form is a copy of the movement from an old okinawan form called Kusanku.
> 
> ...


There is an application for leaving that position. You move like the human body moves.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 23, 2017)

SF 3 is a series of takedown techs, and nobody is wondering about making it all mean something or fit a larger pattern. Hit those bows, and we will be happy as clams.


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## Headhunter (Dec 24, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I guess every school is different


Not really because by black belt (or earlier in some places) every single self defence technique has been taught to you and your tested on them so everyone by black belt should know those techniques inside out


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## Headhunter (Dec 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> \
> well this is where i am going to have to be a buzz kill to the kenpo fans,,you perspective @JowGaWolf  is from a Chinese view point and tradition,  Kenpo is purely an American innovation.  Ed Parker never learnt any forms from Chow.  all of kenpo's forms were created as an after thought to produce more material because Parker ran out of stuff to teach his students. most of the forms were created by James wing woo.  other forms followed from many other teachers along the way.
> the opening of this form is a copy of the movement from an old okinawan form called Kusanku.
> 
> ...


I'm a big kenpo fan but not really a Parker fan. I have no problem talking about the guys faults and I don't hold him up as a god like some do. I know a lot of the stuff was invented by his students or taken from other styles including the salutation. Funnily enough I actually saw in the movie dragon the bruce lee story, the guy playing bruce lee doing what is basically the kenpo salutation in a scene set in ed Parkers karate tournament which ed parker jr was playing his dad.

Now I do have a lot of respect for ed Parker he was obviously a very clever man and from videos he was obviously very fast for a guy his size and he did loads for karate in the west. But I know he had faults and it doesn't bother me at all knowing he didnt invent a lot of the stuff I don't care because I enjoy the system for what it is and I accept it's faults


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 24, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I'm a big kenpo fan but not really a Parker fan. I have no problem talking about the guys faults and I don't hold him up as a god like some do. I know a lot of the stuff was invented by his students or taken from other styles including the salutation. Funnily enough I actually saw in the movie dragon the bruce lee story, the guy playing bruce lee doing what is basically the kenpo salutation in a scene set in ed Parkers karate tournament which ed parker jr was playing his dad.
> 
> Now I do have a lot of respect for ed Parker he was obviously a very clever man and from videos he was obviously very fast for a guy his size and he did loads for karate in the west. But I know he had faults and it doesn't bother me at all knowing he didnt invent a lot of the stuff I don't care because I enjoy the system for what it is and I accept it's faults


I wouldn't call not inventing martial arts moves a fault. What is to invent?


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 24, 2017)

If all the romantics are taken away from martial arts we are really talking about punching, kicking and generally just fighting so in a way it doesn't matter who taught who and what was what, as long as you fight. But human nature is one of ego, expectations and is very complex. Layers of the human psyche  get added to the Primal ability to fight and that's where everything gets a little funky.
Often people judge others with black and white generalities. If we find someone has lied or been deceptive we will, like they do in court cases "throw out ones entire testimony" we will discount the entire person and everything they have done. Ignoring the good. Others will ignore the bad because they are invested in a positive outcome or outlook. They do not want the negative to reflect on themselves. Such is life.  Those who wish to progress have to see through all this and focus on the truth for what it is and not be judgemental. "Take what is useful" and move on.


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## Headhunter (Dec 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> If all the romantics are taken away from martial arts we are really talking about punching, kicking and generally just fighting so in a way it doesn't matter who taught who and what was what, as long as you fight. But human nature is one of ego, expectations and is very complex. Layers of the human psyche  get added to the Primal ability to fight and that's where everything gets a little funky.
> Often people judge others with black and white generalities. If we find someone has lied or been deceptive we will, like they do in court cases "throw out ones entire testimony" we will discount the entire person and everything they have done. Ignoring the good. Others will ignore the bad because they are invested in a positive outcome or outlook. They do not want the negative to reflect on themselves. Such is life.  Those who wish to progress have to see through all this and focus on the truth for what it is and not be judgemental. "Take what is useful" and move on.


Personally I've never cared about any of this. People on here have called me selfish for saying this but I don't care about who my founder is or who my instructors lineage is or who did what and who made what. All I care about is my training. Why should I worry about anyone else I'm training for me because I enjoy it no other reason


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 24, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Personally I've never cared about any of this. People on here have called me selfish for saying this but I don't care about who my founder is or who my instructors lineage is or who did what and who made what. All I care about is my training. Why should I worry about anyone else I'm training for me because I enjoy it no other reason


From a certain perspective you are absolutely correct. But there are aspects of training where it is important.  Unless someone enjoys the practice of getting in fights on a regular basis some of our training is theoretical and some is based on assumption. In those cases we rely on those who have gone before us to fill in the voids of our own ignorance.  It is important that the guidance we receive is correct.


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## Headhunter (Dec 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> From a certain perspective you are absolutely correct. But there are aspects of training where it is important.  Unless someone enjoys the practice of getting in fights on a regular basis some of our training is theoretical and some is based on assumption. In those cases we rely on those who have gone before us to fill in the voids of our own ignorance.  It is important that the guidance we receive is correct.


Yep and I prefer to make my own assumptions instead of blindly following someone else's. I'll listen to what the others say I'll accept what I believe works for me and ignore what doesn't. I don't treat every word they say as gospel text. I'm experienced to know enough about what works for me and my way of doing things. No of course I don't know everything and I'm happy to listen to anyone's advice no matter who it is but I'll analyse what they say and see if I agree or not


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## Sami Ibrahim (Jan 22, 2018)

Interesting posts, just going to chime in with my humble opinion ; )

The meaning of movements in American Kenpo are not limited to a single correct and specific interpretation as is the initial approach of some traditional systems before students progress to the level equivalent to "closed-door disciple" and find out that what they thought was a very exact and correct application when their Sifu wanted them to get a good foundation is actually a many layered onion of applications depending on circumstances. Once the disciple trains the layers of application within a movement they will increase their ability to adapt to the chaos of combat and increase the usefulness of their traditional martial art. 

Unfortunately, many students of traditional martial arts remain on the outside of the full scope of their chosen martial arts leaving them with a feeling of elitism for knowing only one right and correct way to execute a movement. The American Kenpo founder emphasized that the ideal phase is an idea and serves as a frame of reference for further exploration of what-if possibilities. It is when the student realizes this in Kenpo that it too becomes more useful in an actual altercation.

Kenpo can be as theoretical and based on assumptions as the practitioner wants to make it but my advice is to test your theories and assumptions through the exploration of the three phases and pressure test, improve on, rinse and repeat until your Kenpo is as far from theoretical as possible. If you want to know if a certain knife grip is more secure than another for the purposes of slashing against someone with a thick winter coat, work it on a tire wearing a thick winter coat, if you want to know if a certain footwork will get you to flank your attacker while at the same time loading your leg for a kick with enough time to execute the kick before your target adapts work it on skilled fighters and refine, refine, refine. Try not to make excuses to avoid testing because in the end someone may be counting on this stuff.

Lastly, I want to address the idea of authenticity in a martial art system. In my opinion its not about some mortal and flawed human being developing a systematic approach to martial arts training versus an immortal sage or divine being teaching it to a man while he slept as we all know that it was customary in the Asian martial arts to give things an older and divine origin to increase their value rather than admit that some guy who liked to fight consolidated his experiences into a system. After the communist take-over it became all the rage to advertise a martial art to sound like a high science and elevate it from merely an effective form of pugilism to "martial science"  just as in Japan as peace took hold it became more in vogue to treat martial arts as ways of life leading to zen enlightenment than as a collection of techniques that destroy human life in combat. I am grateful that the founder of American Kenpo moved away from the custom of sugar-coating violence into something other than its self... his saying about when pure fists meet pure flesh rings true to me. Authentic and Pure versus contaminated and merely invented be a flawed human and other such statements betray the lack of experience with the raw truth of martial arts and show that the speaker is a bit gullible to believe that what they do is really invented by an immortal or deity etc. its kind of laughable...sorry to ramble its getting late.

I will end by saying sorry to everyone that I almost always seem to offend every time I post, so lets just get that out the way now, I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings of superiority just sharing my opinion.


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