# Weighted Turns



## East Winds (May 3, 2003)

How many of you Taiji guys use weighted turns (i.e. weight in the pivoting leg) rather than pulling the weight into the opposite leg, before turning.

Best wishes


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## Taiji fan (May 4, 2003)

My old school used to teach the long form in this manner ( I only ever did simplified with them,) the teacher said it was a more advances way of practising and really taiji should have no sitting back to move the lead foot.....I have since found out that this is completely wrong and shows that the practitioner does not understand the weight distribution or coordination of the body.  Turns out this guy does an 'erle montaigue' version of the form which he sometimes referes to as old yang.... which he got from some obscure person up a hill in China......


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## chufeng (May 4, 2003)

We use a balance between the two...

As the weight shifts to the "pulling" leg, we pivot on the heel of the leg that we've coiled energy into...but only after it is at 49% weight...then we press the heel with a "screwing" feeling into the ground as the pulling leg accepts the weight and we fold into the gua to complete the turn...

The angle of the feet are very important as keeping them too open actually locks the hips and complete rotation cannot occur.

:asian:
chufeng


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## East Winds (May 5, 2003)

Taiji Fan and Chufeng,

Thanks for the reply. Apparently the traditional way of turning in Yang was with weight in the pivoting foot. Fu Shengyuan states "Rocking the weight back and turning with an empty leg will not develop the strength of the legs to the same degree as pivoting with the weight in the solid leg and if the original meaning of Tai Chi as a martial art is to be restored, then you must pivot on heel with the weight still in the solid leg" and later he states " When practising, keep the waist, abdomen, hip, buttocks and groin relaxed while pivoting with the weight in the solid leg........This is what is known as distinguishing the solid and empty in the foot".

I know for instance, my own teacher teaches that when moving into left grasp birds tail, the weight should not come back to the left foot, but the right heel should be "screwed" into the ground thereby relaxing into the Kua as described by Chufeng.

Regards


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## Taiji fan (May 5, 2003)

DOH! ok Eastwinds I am with you......or rather I was on a different track....I was looking at the weight shift via stepping....

Yes in the transition of frames, such as the grasp birds tail has a wind up/ rotation that depends very much on the solidity of the legs and relaxation of the groin.


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## liangzhicheng (Aug 21, 2003)

Wu style often pivots on the weighted leg.  Beginning students will shift their weight in order to do this.  It's hard to do without much practice, because in Wu style, there is supposed to be 100% weight separation which means you're pivoting with the leg that is supporting 100% weight.  To accomplish this, I keep in mind 100% weight separation, and keeping the body at the same level.  I find that doing so makes the circle smaller.


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## Taiji fan (Aug 21, 2003)

> because in Wu style, there is supposed to be 100% weight separation which means you're pivoting with the leg that is supporting 100% weight.


 thats really interesting because in traditional Yang that would be completely wrong.  In Trad Yang there is always a weight shift (of varying degrees) before repositioning a foot.  Interesting stuff.  Some moves require a 100% weight shift in order to lift a foot, others require a lesser weight shift to pivot the foot....


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## liangzhicheng (Aug 21, 2003)

> thats really interesting because in traditional Yang that would be completely wrong



I am VERY OFFENDED :angry: 

lol, just kidding.  It is interesting to note the differences between styles 

I believe one of the reasons for this it to train the extremes.  You never want to get to the point of 100% weight separation in a real situation, but this way, you'd still be stable in case it did happen.


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## Taiji fan (Aug 21, 2003)

> I believe one of the reasons for this it to train the extremes. You never want to get to the point of 100% weight separation in a real situation, but this way, you'd still be stable in case it did happen


 thats an interesting concept what does your teacher say about the reasons for training this way too? do you have any other ideas about this as well...I'd be interested to hear more :asian:


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## liangzhicheng (Aug 21, 2003)

Actually, that is one of the reasons my Sifu told me.  Wu style can be recognized by two characteristics:

1. 100% weight separation
2. The forward lean

You can see the forward lean in my avatar, which is the Wu Style Federation logo.  It is a drawing of the founder, Wu Chien Chuan.  There is a straight line from the top of the head to the heel.  The forward lean is necessary to attain 100% weight separation in the bow stance.  

Reasons for 100% weight separation:
*It boosts circulation by making the legs do more work.
*I already stated that it helps train the extremes
*Yin/yang separation
*Balance.  It's very similar to standing on one leg.
*The free leg can kick, step, etc. freely without the need to shift weight.

Reasons for the foward lean:
*Extend your arm in a punch from a bow stance keeping upright, now lean forward until you attain the straight line.  Your punch reaches farther in the forward lean.
*This position stretches the back of the leg, and a straight line can only be achieved by tucking in the hips and chin.  In my experience, if you an achieve the straight line in the bow stance, doing it standing up is almost a given, since doing it in the bow stance is harder. As I recall this has to do with the part of the Tai Chi Classics about the back hanging like a string of nine pearls, but I may be wrong.

Most of the above reasons were taught by my teacher, some were not taught specifically referring to 100% weight separation or the forward lean, but I think are related.  I might think of some more reasons later, I'm going to sleep now.  But before I do...why would you not want to practice 100% weight separation?


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## Taiji fan (Aug 22, 2003)

thanks for your reply...thats cool.  Actually Trad. Yang also has a lean as well, its to keep the back connected......I don't know if Wu style has suffered the same fate as Yang, but for us there have been many variations 'developed' since the 1950's.  These modern forms such as the 24 simplified and the Cheng Man Ching style who call themselves Yang have conviently 'missed out' most of the essential body requirements.  Cheng Man Ching style especially, breaks the back alignment and the back leg requirments to have a continually upright body, when tested the CMC postures are weak or you find the practitioners have to use more muscle to sustain them.....which when you consider that taiji is supposed to be good for your health, placing undue strain on parts of the body seems a bit daft  

Its really interesting stuff.  My teacher is holidaying with me for a week so we are having lots of very interesting conversations....but I also have found that I am coming to loads of conclusions myself and am checking with her that I haven't missunderstood things.

What conclusions have you come to through your training and have you had a teacher confirm your thoughts later on....its quite an exieting stage in development but also scary......


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## liangzhicheng (Aug 22, 2003)

> Actually Trad. Yang also has a lean as well, its to keep the back connected



Wu Chien Chuan did study Yang style   The Wu family recognizes this, and respects the Yang family.



> don't know if Wu style has suffered the same fate as Yang, but for us there have been many variations 'developed' since the 1950's



Unfortunately, this has been the case with Wu style as well.  My Sifu still studies with her Sifu, Sifu Wu Kwong Yu, who is part of the Wu family.  There's another teacher in my city that teaches "Wu Style", but has no contact with the family.  Perhaps one of the more popular "variations" is the version that Ma Yueh Liang taught.  It is supposed to be Wu Chien Chuan's form.  However, Wu Chien Chuan supported the changes that his son, Wu Kung Yi made, and Ma Yueh Liang was NOT the chosen inheritor as some claim.  Other than that, of course there are watered down versions, as well as the PRC's "Wu Style" competition form.  Currently, my Si Gong (Wu Kwong Yu) is attempting to unify Wu Style by bringing the 54 form to the world.  If you're going to say you're teaching Wu Style, at the very least, you have to be able to teach the 54 form according to the principles.



> when tested the CMC postures are weak or you find the practitioners have to use more muscle to sustain them.....which when you consider that taiji is supposed to be good for your health, placing undue strain on parts of the body seems a bit daft



Ha ha, how true.  It's kinda funny....when I was first researching Tai Chi, I read the Tai Chi Classics (the Waysun Liao version), and I thought that keeping the body upright was in keeping with the Classics.  Therefore, I thought that Wu Style was wrong.  How ironic that I am dedicating myself to Wu Style now   Just goes to show that it takes deeper understanding to have some grasp of what the Classics are saying.



> Its really interesting stuff. My teacher is holidaying with me for a week so we are having lots of very interesting conversations



Awesome!  I'm sure you're having fun   Where are you guys vacationing?



> What conclusions have you come to through your training and have you had a teacher confirm your thoughts later on



The first thing that comes to mind is self-correction on the form/my posture.  Every so often, when my Sifu makes a correction to the form, I'm like "cool, I figured that out for myself".  I give credit to my Sifu for this, however, as she does a really good job of teaching/showing correct form...if you're paying attention   Mainly, I've been working on the fundamental stuff such as keeping level, 100% weight separation, linkage, etc.  Most of the revelations I've had have been related to how to attain these fundamentals, or steps toward this.  For instance, it came to me that when shifting to the sides from a horse stance, the back should be moving in the same plane.  This was confirmed by my Sifu.  So, now I get to fall over a bunch, but that's what you have to do.  In order to change, you have to move to foreign waters, which more often than not means that you don't have balance in that spot.  I'm going to keep focusing on the fundamentals before I move on to other stuff.  Gotta get the foundation strong before I start building.

What about you?  What conclusions have you come to?  (This discussion is great...if only more people would join in)


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## Taiji fan (Aug 22, 2003)

well, for the last year, would you believe that I have been almost entirely focussed on weight shift and elbows!!  One big realistation that I had was that I was always shifting the weight fully, before repositioning the lead foot which is a bit of an exageration.  When on the masterclass I couldn't understand why I was always behind everyone....until I realised thats what it was all about.  It was quite nice to have worked it out for myself!!



> Ha ha, how true. It's kinda funny....when I was first researching Tai Chi, I read the Tai Chi Classics (the Waysun Liao version), and I thought that keeping the body upright was in keeping with the Classics. Therefore, I thought that Wu Style was wrong. How ironic that I am dedicating myself to Wu Style now  Just goes to show that it takes deeper understanding to have some grasp of what the Classics are saying


 :rofl: that is so true.  The CMC style people are continually upright in the back.  It is so weak on the structure and potentially damaging to the body.  Much of the classics have been missinterpreted.... and rubbish perpetuated.


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## liangzhicheng (Aug 22, 2003)

> well, for the last year, would you believe that I have been almost entirely focussed on weight shift and elbows!!



Yes, I do believe it, and find it quite refreshing.  I've seen quite a bit of "I know this posture, let's move on to the next one" (mostly overtly from beginners).  Personally, sometimes I mistakenly think I have somewhat of a grasp on a fundamental concept like 100% weight separation, only to realize that my grasp was only an illusion.  One must continually empty the cup if one is to grow.  Along those lines, let me re-iterate it to those who have not read my other posts/my profile.  I am not a master, I have a piddling three years under my belt and hope I do not come off as high and mighty.  I am only trying to bring Tai Chi to the attention of more people, and generate open discussions.



> I couldn't understand why I was always behind everyone



Yay, someone who tries to follow pacing!  When practicing alone, you can go whatever pace you want.  In Wu Style, when practicing, you're supposed to follow the corner person in the direction you are facing.  Apparently, a skill that many people lack.  I think it is beneficial not only for the group, but for one's own training, as it trains sensitivity.

This thread is starting to diverge...perhaps we should start a new one?


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