# Is your FMA for the specialist or the generalist?



## geezer (Oct 20, 2019)

Some FMA groups focus primarily on a particular weapon and range where as other groups are generalists and include a bit of everything. 

The "specialists" often have very complex and highly evolved methods for addressing their chosen specialty, be that blade work, close-range single-stick, longer range, heavy stick, etc. where as the "generalists" seek to apply a more conceptual approach accross a wide range of weapons, from empty hands to the improvised use of ordinary objects for defensive purposes.

What is your system like? Does it tend more towards one or the other of these two approaches?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 20, 2019)

Just for interest i think the one i am going to eventually go and do, focuses on sword and dagger.  At least thats what i think you would call its specialism.    

obvious single and double stick is still used before you get a dagger and the like and unarmed is still taught.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 21, 2019)

Mostly generalist. We use a knife and stick for the most part, and learn how to adapt it to other weapons (my favorite combination from my own experimentation based on tbe general principles is hammer and scissor).

That said, we also always treat stick as if its a machete, focusing on where the blade is, and sparring with the mindset that its an actual blade we're either trying to hit with or avoiding getting hit with. Which from what i can tell ends up transferring to good structure with blunt weapons, but might be unnecessary.


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## jobo (Oct 21, 2019)

Rat said:


> Just for interest i think the one i am going to eventually go and do, focuses on sword and dagger.  At least thats what i think you would call its specialism.
> 
> obvious single and double stick is still used before you get a dagger and the like and unarmed is still taught.


eventually ?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 21, 2019)

jobo said:


> eventually ?



Eventually.          Thats just what i got from reading up on the style and looking at videos and what the person has told me.


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## Danny T (Oct 21, 2019)

We 'specialize' in 3 ranges vs 3 opponent's utilizing all categories of weapons. Sooo...we are specialized generalists.


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## Headhunter (Oct 21, 2019)

Rat said:


> Eventually.          Thats just what i got from reading up on the style and looking at videos and what the person has told me.


Jeez the amount of time you've spent reading you could've already had loads of real experience by now and actually learned something


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## Headhunter (Oct 21, 2019)

jobo said:


> eventually ?


He's got to complete his YouTube training first lol


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## Blindside (Oct 21, 2019)

Generalist.
My goal is to produce fighters that can pick up any weapon and hopefully any combination of weapons and be competent with them.  (Except flexible weapons, f'in nunchaku and 3 section staffs are just stupid. ;D )


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## jobo (Oct 21, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> He's got to complete his YouTube training first lol


yea of course   , that's a five year course of study.


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> That said, we also always treat stick as if its a machete, focusing on where the blade is, and sparring with the mindset that its an actual blade we're either trying to hit with or avoiding getting hit with. *Which from what i can tell ends up transferring to good structure with blunt weapons,* but might be unnecessary.



For the most part I agree. Grasping and using a stick with an awareness of "blade orientation" as though it were a machete does produce a stronger structure. But unlike some blade wielders, I don't worry about not blocking "edge to edge" when using a stick. That issue makes no sense, especially when the edge-on orientation is the stronger structure.

Also, when using a stick there are some situations where you may strike very powerfully with what would translate to the flat of the blade if you were holding a machete or short sword.

Interestingly, a well informed HEMA practitioner showed me that under similar circumstances the old treatises often show a _blade_ being used this same way, either_ blocking edge on edge_, or sometimes _striking with the flat_, if that is what is available, then perhaps following-up with a proper cut or thrust.

Apparently that old proscription against edge on edge contact you hear so often in FMA circles was not of equal concern in the European tradition, at least it was not held to be nearly as important as winning the day and staying alive.


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## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2019)

We started with a blade, then went to sticks, then open hands, then back to a blade. Generalist?


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> We started with a blade, then went to sticks, then open hands, then back to a blade. *Generalist?*



^^^^ Sounds like it to me.

We, by contrast, start with_ a stick,_ then typically go to two sticks, then mix in longer weapons like a staff and long-ish single stick or cane, then work with either doubled-up sticks (held together) or a single heavy stick, and then scaling down to little palm sticks, and so forth. Blade work is seen as more specialized, so machete is handled as an advanced form of single stick with special concerns, just as knife work is adapted from the palm stick training. And everything is continually tied back to empty hands. So we're definitely _generalists._

Honestly though, our club doesn't emphasize blade work as much as some branches. I personally view knives as better suited as offensive than defensive weapons ...which becomes problematic applying them as a self defense tool. Defending against a knife attack with a knife is, IMO, less than ideal and likely to result in a "double kill" or at least both parties sustaining significant injuries. But perhaps this is a topic for a different thread?


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2019)

BTW our limited emphasis on blades has definitely cost us students. An awful lot of people come to FMA wanting "to learn how to knife fight" ...or at least use a knife for self defense. Not my cup of tea.

Our approach vis a vis self defense is focused mainly on awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, and escape. And if you ever have to resort to physical defense using a weapon, I'm all about _improvised_ weapons rather than carrying. But that's just me.


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## dvcochran (Oct 27, 2019)

geezer said:


> BTW our limited emphasis on blades has definitely cost us students. An awful lot of people come to FMA wanting "to learn how to knife fight" ...or at least use a knife for self defense. Not my cup of tea.
> 
> Our approach vis a vis self defense is focused mainly on awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, and escape. And if you ever have to resort to physical defense using a weapon, I'm all about _improvised_ weapons rather than carrying. But that's just me.


I too think situational awareness is the best type of self defense.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 3, 2019)

I have only trained in two arts, both of them FMA. 
The First is a generalist. Starts with Stick and empty hand, with some basic blade self defense to get people moving. 
Works multiple ranges and multiple weapons. While many after a period of time can see that some of the techniques may be better with a single stick or a single blade or a stick and short blade or two blades one longer , or two sticks or empty hand , or ... 
...
The other I learned is a specialty. is it optimized for Stick Dueling. Stick , all stick all the time. It is for two people who are mad at each other and want to cause harm to the other, and not just dance around on the outside and play the largo (Long) sniping game. One manages, monitors and delays the opponents weapon, with your hand. I like them both for different reasons. I teach them both for different reasons. 
...
And yes, those looking for knife killing get frustrated as they want to be super uber cool and way out there so no one can touch them. So even "Challenge" and continue to disrupt until they get the demo they are looking for. Overwhelm them with an aluminum blade so they feel the cold metal and they also feel the pokes / stabs and get bruised from it. This leads them ether opening their mind and going back to mechanics we are teaching of awareness, body movement and timing, or they realize they cannot stop an assassination . I even give them a blue hard plastic training pistol of enough time to prepare a squirt gun. And ask them to clear their weapon and get it on side when they do not know which person in the crowd has the knife and will attack. Then add in the prison pin and multiple stabbing like a sewing machine and they either realize their best bet is to avoid ti all together or start training for the rest of their lives for the possibility of that violence, when most could reduce it by making better decisions. 

treat the half mark of your gas tank as empty. Do not stop in bad neighborhoods to get gas or pop or directions. Avoid conflict. Be aware. 

Geezer, good thread.


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## Blindside (Nov 8, 2019)

geezer said:


> Interestingly, a well informed HEMA practitioner showed me that under similar circumstances the old treatises often show a _blade_ being used this same way, either_ blocking edge on edge_, or sometimes _striking with the flat_, if that is what is available, then perhaps following-up with a proper cut or thrust.
> 
> Apparently that old proscription against edge on edge contact you hear so often in FMA circles was not of equal concern in the European tradition, at least it was not held to be nearly as important as winning the day and staying alive.



You don't even have to go to the older treatises, the last functional European swordsmanship manuals (sabre, spadroon, small sword, highland broadsword) used edge to edge blocking regularly.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Nov 25, 2019)

generalist


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## geezer (Nov 25, 2019)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> generalist


Ok. Could you elaborate....just a bit?


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## Christopher Adamchek (Dec 1, 2019)

geezer said:


> Ok. Could you elaborate....just a bit?



Empty hand destruction techniques
Dumog grappling
Footwork 
Knife, karambit, stick, short sword/machette, kubotan, short axe, sarong
Knife and stick we lean more towards


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## geezer (Dec 1, 2019)

Chris- thanks! Sounds pretty well rounded. So... if you’re a “generalist” who leans more toward stick and knife, do you train using your sticks with an awareness of “blade orientation” as though it were a bladed weapon?

BTW- what system do you practice?


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## geezer (Dec 1, 2019)

Rat said:


> Just for interest i think the one i am going to eventually go and do, focuses on sword and dagger.  At least thats what i think you would call its specialism.
> 
> obvious single and double stick is still used before you get a dagger and the like and unarmed is still taught.


Just re-read this. You might do well to try some historical esgrima or esgrime rather than escrima or eskrima.

That is to say HEMA (esgrima and esgrime being Spanish and French words for fencing). We have some groups around here that really seem to have fun. I tried it briefly just to get another perspective. 

I came away thinking that there’s probably a stronger European influence on the FMA I practice than many patriotic Filipinos care to admit.To my perspective, we’re  kind of a global, weapons-based MMA.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 1, 2019)

geezer said:


> Just re-read this. You might do well to try some historical esgrima or esgrime rather than escrima or eskrima.
> 
> That is to say HEMA (esgrima and esgrime being Spanish and French words for fencing). We have some groups around here that really seem to have fun. I tried it briefly just to get another perspective.
> 
> I came away thinking that there’s probably a stronger European influence on the FMA I practice than many patriotic Filipinos care to admit.To my perspective, we’re  kind of a global, weapons-based MMA.



It doesn't solely focus on it, but i would say if you would put a name to its specialism it is that.          Also, it all looks interesting, but at least the Filipino version of it is machete and dagger rather than rapier.  

And there probably is quite a bit of western influence.   Its not like they were not a colony of Spain and then the U.S.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Dec 2, 2019)

geezer said:


> Chris- thanks! Sounds pretty well rounded. So... if you’re a “generalist” who leans more toward stick and knife, do you train using your sticks with an awareness of “blade orientation” as though it were a bladed weapon?
> 
> BTW- what system do you practice?



Not often, we will just switch to the training machetes for blade orientation 

I studied Atienza Kali for a while, and krav that had kali elements, and the rest is all self taught


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## Blindside (Dec 2, 2019)

geezer said:


> Just re-read this. You might do well to try some historical esgrima or esgrime rather than escrima or eskrima.
> 
> That is to say HEMA (esgrima and esgrime being Spanish and French words for fencing). We have some groups around here that really seem to have fun. I tried it briefly just to get another perspective.
> 
> I came away thinking that there’s probably a stronger European influence on the FMA I practice than many patriotic Filipinos care to admit.To my perspective, we’re  kind of a global, weapons-based MMA.



This is a really good analysis of similiarities between one system of FMA and one HEMA system. 




That  said, from what little I have seen of Filipino Espada y Daga, it is very different than its European counterparts and that is largely due to the characteristics of the swords used, or maybe it is more about the daggers.  On the Spanish side (just looking at obvious possible influences here) the "sword and dagger" would have been rapier and dagger, both blades would typically have good hand protection (attached picture is of a European sword hilted by a cutler in Manila).  The heavy defensive use of the dagger is much much harder with the typical Filipino dagger with essentially no hand protection and the European examples.  This has to impact blade play significantly.


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## geezer (Dec 2, 2019)

Lamont- that was an excellent clip. I would suppose the European use of  a navy hanger or cutlass would translate even more closely to the usage of typical Filipino blades, although as you pointed out, the basket and later cup-hilted European designs provided far greater hand protection which impacted usage, leading to a hand-forward position in which the large, protected hilt was almost used like a small shield.

Otherwise the strikes and parries are often quite similar. Not surprising  considering that such weapons were standard for defending merchant ships, and plenty of Filipinos served as sailors on Spanish vessels of the era.


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## Blindside (Dec 2, 2019)

geezer said:


> Lamont- that was an excellent clip. I would suppose the European use of  a navy hanger or cutlass would translate even more closely to the usage of typical Filipino blades, although as you pointed out, the basket and later cup-hilted European designs provided far greater hand protection which impacted usage, leading to a hand-forward position in which the large, protected hilt was almost used like a small shield.
> 
> Otherwise the strikes and parries are often quite similar. Not surprising  considering that such weapons were standard for defending merchant ships, and plenty of Filipinos served as sailors on Spanish vessels of the era.



One of the things I found when I started HEMA (specifically Georgian era British military swordsmanship, so sabre, cutlass, spadroon, Scottish broadsword) was that the fundamentals of weapons handling were literally the opposite of everything I did in Pekiti, the grip, the power generation method, etc were all very very different.  The soft skills of understanding measure and the like translated over, but mechanically it was very different.


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## geezer (Dec 2, 2019)

Blindside said:


> One of the things I found when I started HEMA (specifically Georgian era British military swordsmanship, so sabre, cutlass, spadroon, Scottish broadsword) was that the fundamentals of weapons handling were literally the opposite of everything I did in Pekiti, the grip, the power generation method, etc were all very very different.  The soft skills of understanding measure and the like translated over, but mechanically it was very different.



That makes me want to go back and take another look at HEMA to see if the same differences you note are equally true for the FMA I studied as well. One of my instructors had a background in Pekiti, but my foundation was early Latosa PMAS Escrima which is kinda like a more simplifed and direct version of serrada with a lot of boxing influence. Since it's not as focused blades as Pekiti, short-power generation is highly stressed.


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## angelariz (Jul 12, 2020)

geezer said:


> Some FMA groups focus primarily on a particular weapon and range where as other groups are generalists and include a bit of everything.
> 
> The "specialists" often have very complex and highly evolved methods for addressing their chosen specialty, be that blade work, close-range single-stick, longer range, heavy stick, etc. where as the "generalists" seek to apply a more conceptual approach accross a wide range of weapons, from empty hands to the improvised use of ordinary objects for defensive purposes.
> 
> What is your system like? Does it tend more towards one or the other of these two approaches?


I am a student of Paul Vunak. We are generalists.  Every range of empty hands and impact, edged, and improvised weapons are all looked at.


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## EskrimaFan (Aug 2, 2022)

Somewhat older topic, but De Campo 1-2-3 Original specializes in Largo Mano and is a dueling style.

It became notorious by the Juego Todo wins by the founder Jose Caballero.


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