# the 'sticks'



## satans.barber (May 20, 2002)

Hey everyone,

The traditional kenpo weapon (correct me if I'm wrong here...) seems to me to be the two short, escrima style sticks (known to poor students like myself as a broom handle sawn in half).

The guy who teaches us, and also the guy down south who heads our club are both really good with these, yet they don't seem willing to teach us how to use them 

We do plenty of defenses against them (brushing the storm, clipping the storm, capturing the storm, returning the storm, defying the storm and evading the storm are the only ones I know, I think) but not much actual training.

On a few nights when it's been quiet and there's only really been brown belts there, we've been shown how techniques such as five swords and flashing mace can be adapted to use two sticks, but that's about it. We were very clumsy and poor with them, and basically a little frightened of braying someone with one of them through inexperience!

Last time the big man was up from down south, I asked him about getting started with them, and he said 'Well, they're just an extension of your hands really.', then picked a couple up and impressivly beat the **** out of a hanging bag for a couple of minutes, then put them down and went back to what he was doing; so I'm none-the-wiser!

The question really then, is at what point in people's training did they start to learn how to use them, if at all? And does anyone have any good tips for starting to learn them, bearing in mind that I'd be doing it pretty much on my own since the sifus don't seem all that interested in teaching us.

I feel that I'm really missing out here, I've seen these in action in a real fight (it was 'The World's Deadliest Gangs' on Bravo, this Mauri gang lord took about 3 guys out with a pair in a very short space of time!) and in demonstrations etc., and I feel they should be a bigger part of my kenpo.

Also, I suppose I'd secretly like to go all Jeff Speakman and beat the crap out of an old settee 

Ian.


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## Kirk (May 20, 2002)

I'm definitely no expert here, but as I'm prone to do, I'll reply 
nonetheless.  I think that by putting sticks in your hands and
working the techniques and forms is exactly what you should
do.  The basic rules are the same as in kenpo .. don't get in
your own way!  In addition to this, you can maybe find someone
in your area that can teach you the senwalli (sp?) and sombrada
patterns, and teach you some strips.   You get good at it the 
same way you get to Carnegie Hall.


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## Seig (May 20, 2002)

While I cannot answer your question, it has given me a good idea.  I think I will start having my senior students going back to white belt techs with the sticks and working their way back through the techniques using them.


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## Michael Billings (May 20, 2002)

but you can start earlier.  Seniors like Huk Palanas and Frank Trejo incorporate some of the escrimador in the Kenpoist.  They both teach some flow drills with the stick that convert to the empty hand drills very well.

The UKS does something a little different.  My teacher, Tommy Burks, works with sticks exclusively from a Kenpo perspective.  It is all levers and fulcrums applied while or immediately after the strikes, that make it very interesting.  My 3rd Black form was a double stick set.  We used the cradled position (chambering the stick along the forearm) as well as the traditional grips.  GREAT FUN!!!!

Michael Billings
United Kenpo Systems-Texas


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## tonbo (May 20, 2002)

Well, a few tips I would have would be.....

1)  Work the forms using sticks.  Start with Short 1 and move your way up.  Try to see how you can perform the various strikes and blocks with a single stick, then work with double sticks.

2)  Work techniques using sticks.  Start with white techniques, then move on up.  Again, start with a single stick, then work up to two sticks.

3)  Freestyle it.  Get some good music (i.e., music you want to work to), and get a heavy bag (or make one from an old duffle bag stuffed with rags).  Set up the bag, and just go to town with the sticks.  Try various punch combinations and angles with the sticks.  Again, start with one stick and use the other hand to check; then move up to two sticks.  Think of blocks as well as strikes.  The key to this one is to start slow, then work up to faster speeds.

4)  Work the patterns.  Remember, a stick is basically like a sword in movements.  You have a couple of patterns that you can use effectively:  The "plus", with stick going down from head to toes in a downward strike, going up as a reverse of that motion, and side to side--right to left, left to right.  You also have the "times" pattern:  An "x" drawn in the air with the stick, right shoulder to left foot, left shoulder to right foot.  You can reverse both of those strikes as well.  Play with it.  Finally, there is the "dot" or center, strike......just a poke with the end of the stick.  Play with the patterns in a horse stance, then try a guard stance, and then move on to moving around.

5)  Get books/videos.  Get ahold of some of the Remy Presas stuff.  Look up Filipino martial arts in the library, the bookstore, and on line.  Spend some time at the local bookstore reading the stick arts books in the martial arts section, and buy some if you can.  Play with what you see in the books.

These are just some ideas.  Mostly, if you do the research, and ask plenty of questions of those around you, you will get some answers.  A lot of insight will come from just playing around and seeing what works.  Also, work with a partner as much as possible.

Good luck, and let me know if you need more leads.....I have a few quicktime clips that I can send to you, to get you started.....

Peace--


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## Klondike93 (May 20, 2002)

Once again you all have pointed out some obvious things I should have been doing all along. 

My first kenpo instructor started teaching me some stick stuff right away. We did some drills and bag stuff but that was all.
I haven't done much with them since then, till now.

I did mess around with them doing some self defense techniques but not much. I never thought to do the forms with them, doh!!
Makes sense to me. Thanks.





:asian:


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## Sigung86 (May 20, 2002)

With all the aire of conviviality we are presenting here, I would like to interject a few ideas about teachers.  It would seem that your "big guy" taught you ... Just not in the method you desired.  He told you what to do and then gave you a demonstration, probably in order to pique your curiosity.

Great instructors, and believe me, I don't know who you are talking about as the "big guy", don't always teach in a method that is guaranteed to spoon feed.  I know that I don't, and GD7 has laid a couple of EPAK trips on me, as well as Ron Chapél.  They don't come out and give you a spoon feeding.

One of Doc Chapéls methods is to respond with "Well, that depends".  It gets you thinking.  Dennis will lay a trip on you, then leave you to sort out the destination.  

It used to be axiomatic in my Kenpo World that any weapon was simply an extension of your body.  Well, that is true and not true, I guess you could say, "Well, that depends ...". :rofl:

But if you pick up weapons and just kind of "off-handedly" see how they fit with what you do, you might be extremely surprised at what you already know.

Mencius when asked the question, "Why are we taught"? Responded with, "Because we already know".  When questioned further, "If we already know, then why are we taught"?  Responded with "To remind us of what we already know".

And regardless of hype, there is nothing new under the sun.  With the possible exception of Epistaxia, or Metallica, or whatever style that Gou is so fashionably equipped with now-a-days.  
:shrug: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Take care,

Dan :asian:


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## Kirk (May 20, 2002)

If you do techniques with knives, you could potentially slice your
own bicep while striking and checking, or striking and parrying.
That's why in Philipino martial arts, checks and parries typically
go to the outside, and the strike to the inside.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *The traditional kenpo weapon (correct me if I'm wrong here...) seems to me to be the two short, escrima style sticks. *



Actually the Knives are the traditional weapon to Kenpo.  Mr. Parker loved them.  That being said the Kenpo Klubs were a secondary weapon (I do use rattan but also love maple and oak).

Reason behind these two weapons is that they are easily inserted into our mode of action and execution of motion.

They do however follow  different lines of thought, Knives never cross each other yet the Kenpo Klubs can..... (just one example).

:asian:


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## Les (May 21, 2002)

Actually, the AKKI have a seperate Club curriculum, (and a Knife one as well), with certification independantly of the Belt syllabus.

If you go to www.americankenpo.co.uk then choose syllabus from the menu, you can view the requirments.

Les


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

Allow me to view the requirements..... dangle the carrot then tell me its only for members only....:rofl: 

That's not fair.....

but that's ok...... I'll get even with Paul..... hee hee

he hasn't seen my ballistic sticks yet!! 
:asian:


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## satans.barber (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> It would seem that your "big guy" taught you ... Just not in the method you desired.  He told you what to do and then gave you a demonstration, probably in order to pique your curiosity.



Hehe, trust me, I think he just revelled in the opportunity to show off a little bit! To be fair, it was a private lesson with me and my friend, and we weren't really there to concentrate on that, so we didn't dwell on it.



> Great instructors, and believe me, I don't know who you are talking about as the "big guy", don't always teach in a method that is guaranteed to spoon feed.  I know that I don't, and GD7 has laid a couple of EPAK trips on me, as well as Ron Chapél.  They don't come out and give you a spoon feeding.



The guy I was talking about is Phil Cawood (7th Dan), I doubt any of you have heard of him (shout up if you have, I'd be interested to know in what context...). If you look on the British Kenpo family tree here:

http://www.bkku.com/familytree.htm

You'll see he was a student of Gary Ellis, who was himself a student of Bob Rose, who was they guy who brought Kenpo over to Britain.

His teaching style at the moment seems to be one of outright perfectionism, which is starting to grind on a lot of people, but we don't see him that often anyway as he lives on the south coast.

Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

I thought Rainer Schulte (who taught Rose) Brought Kenpo over to Great Britain?

This is not the case?

 
:asian:


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## satans.barber (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I thought Rainer Schulte (who taught Rose) Brought Kenpo over to Great Britain?
> 
> ...



Um, I was just going by what I'd read on the British Kenpo Karate Union's website, same place that the family tree is in:

http://www.bkku.com/History.htm

I suppose it depends on where Rainer taught Rose? Although you've been in the game a lot longer than me Mr. Conatser, so you're probably right.  As I said, I was only going on what I'd read there, it's not personal experience (I'm not old enough!).

To be honest, the BKKU are stuck so far up their own arses they'd re-write a bit of history if it suited them for some purpose. They've fallen out with us cos we wiped up at too many of their tournaments, we're banned now 

Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

wow...
:asian:


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## Seig (May 22, 2002)

As they used to say in my FLMA days, "Sh*t, here come the Kenpo Thugs, there go the trophies."


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## Les (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I thought Rainer Schulte (who taught Rose) Brought Kenpo over to Great Britain?
> 
> ...



As I recall, around 1978, Bob Rose, then a Brown belt, was teaching some Kenpo under the auspices of the British Kung Fu Association.

He made contact with the IKKA, through a student of Roy MacDonald, from Jersey, Channel Islands, and then went on to train with Rainer Shulte.

All of this happened a long time ago, and Bob Rose now heads the British Kenpo Karate Union, which has several clubs in the UK.

I believe the Kenpo in the United Kingdom originally came from an Irish instructor, but I don't know who.

Memories fade with time, and there are sure to be other versions of events. :shrug: 

Les
(I remember all this as if it was a mere 24 years ago)
Les


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## Sigung86 (May 22, 2002)

Interesting... In 1974 I was teaching Tracy's Kenpo in a place called Wethersfield, not too far from Braintree and right next to Finchingfield.  England, Scotland and Ireland are all beautiful countries ... And most of the time, I got along very well.  Used to go down to South End on Sea and hang with the musos... Met some very cool musicians and some really cool martial artists, as well.

Take care,

Dan


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## Les (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *Interesting... In 1974 I was teaching Tracy's Kenpo in a place called Wethersfield, not too far from Braintree and right next to Finchingfield.  England, Scotland and Ireland are all beautiful countries ... And most of the time, I got along very well.  Used to go down to South End on Sea and hang with the musos... Met some very cool musicians and some really cool martial artists, as well.
> 
> ...



Hells bells... Not to long after that I was just up the road in Colchester. (I was raining, as I remember)

Les


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

In England?
:asian:


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## Sigung86 (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Colchester is a beautiful town.  Oldest established town in England.  More ghosts per square mile than anywhere else in England as I recall.  The castle there was a little disappointing.  I think I wouldn't have liked to live there.  Just a bit to open to the wind! :lol:

One day, I would really like to get back over there for a visit.

Take care,

Dan


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## satans.barber (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *
> I believe the Kenpo in the United Kingdom originally came from an Irish instructor, but I don't know who.
> *



That'd be John McSweeny I think, sadly, he died earlier this year.

Ian.


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