# Deputy stabs BG in weapons retention situation



## KenpoTex (Jan 21, 2009)

> ...the deputy felt the suspect grab his handgun in an attempt to remove it from its holster.  As he fought with the suspect to maintain control of his gun with one hand, and believing he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury, *the deputy drew a knife from his duty belt with his free hand and stabbed the suspect in the upper body. The suspect stopped fighting at that point...*


http://www.sacsheriff.com/media/0116_vehicle_stop.cfm

While the press-release doesn't specify, the way it's written makes it sound like he used a fixed blade ("drew from belt" as opposed to "drew from pocket").  I'm a huge fan of the "off side fixed-blade" for this very reason (I use a push-dagger for this role but the TDI's are great too).
Anyway, good on him...it's just too bad the BG wasn't stopped permanently.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 21, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> http://www.sacsheriff.com/media/0116_vehicle_stop.cfm
> 
> While the press-release doesn't specify, the way it's written makes it sound like he used a fixed blade ("drew from belt" as opposed to "drew from pocket").  I'm a huge fan of the "off side fixed-blade" for this very reason (I use a push-dagger for this role but the TDI's are great too).
> Anyway, good on him...it's just too bad the BG wasn't stopped permanently.


 That's great!

I've started carrying the TDI support side for just that purpose.....glad to see the strategy work as advertised!


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## Drac (Jan 21, 2009)

KenpoTex said:
			
		

> I'm a huge fan of the "off side fixed-blade" for this very reason


 
Same here...Some of the jerks I work with  carry theirs in every imaginable place that would make getting to in an emergency impossible, but what do I know...





sgtmac_46 said:


> That's great!
> 
> I've started carrying the TDI support side for just that purpose.....glad to see the strategy work as advertised!


 
They are a great little surprize..


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## MA-Caver (Jan 21, 2009)

The deputy acted correctly and rightly. Who knows what that BG would've done had they gotten their hands on the weapon. Subdue the bad guy by any means/level necessary.


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## arnisador (Jan 21, 2009)

Good news!

I got one of the TDI knives to experiment with when they started getting popular. It's too small and odd-shaped for me but then I don't use it as intended (as a last-ditch defense).


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## Bikewr (Jan 21, 2009)

I've carried various "tactical" folders weak-side for many years.   Latest and current is the Cold Steel Recon; it's very fast and a big-strong knife that can be used as an impact weapon if need be.

I looked at the TDI and a couple of similar small fixed-blades; but the probem I have is where to carry.   On my weak side, I have my radio, my Taser, a cellphone case, and a key-ring.  Not much room left....

Admittedly a fixed-blade is better; but I'm not uncomfortable with the Recon.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 22, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Good news!
> 
> I got one of the TDI knives to experiment with when they started getting popular. It's too small and odd-shaped for me but then I don't use it as intended (as a last-ditch defense).


 It's a little small for general use......but it's just great for it's intended purpose, as a small slung foward fixed blade, carried in the under belt, accessible on the support hand side, and used to cut the BG off of your firearm by any means necessary.

There is a larger version of the TDI, but it's a little large for comfortably carrying under the duty belt.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 22, 2009)

Bikewr said:


> I've carried various "tactical" folders weak-side for many years. Latest and current is the Cold Steel Recon; it's very fast and a big-strong knife that can be used as an impact weapon if need be.
> 
> I looked at the TDI and a couple of similar small fixed-blades; but the probem I have is where to carry. On my weak side, I have my radio, my Taser, a cellphone case, and a key-ring. Not much room left....
> 
> Admittedly a fixed-blade is better; but I'm not uncomfortable with the Recon.


 
The TDI is actually designed to be carried on your under belt, under your duty belt, with the handle sticking up behind your Taser, radio, cell phone case or key-ring....I keep in front of my Taser, under my Pepperspray case, so it's somewhat concealed from very.....but easy to grab.  

I carry two folders too, but the TDI is quicker and easier to grab under pressure.


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## MJS (Jan 22, 2009)

Glad that things worked out well for the officer.  It could have taken a much worse turn.  Of course, I'm sure some member of the media or public, will turn the story around, making the deputy seem like the bad guy.


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## Drac (Jan 22, 2009)

MJS said:


> Glad that things worked out well for the officer. It could have taken a much worse turn. Of course, I'm sure some member of the media or public, will turn the story around, making the deputy seem like the bad guy.


 
Do ya expect anything else???


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## arnisador (Jan 22, 2009)

MJS said:


> Glad that things worked out well for the officer.  It could have taken a much worse turn.  Of course, I'm sure some member of the media or public, will turn the story around, making the deputy seem like the bad guy.



Yes, every FMAer knows that "only bad people use knives". It's a constant PR problem for us. Sigh...


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## Blindside (Jan 22, 2009)

MJS said:


> Glad that things worked out well for the officer. It could have taken a much worse turn. Of course, I'm sure some member of the media or public, will turn the story around, making the deputy seem like the bad guy.


 
Actually, I searched for this last night, and I really didn't find anything negative on the officer.  Most was a rehash of the press release, some had additional names, but most articles didn't seem slanted one way or the other.


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## Bikewr (Jan 22, 2009)

Most departments have some sort of "or any other weapon" clause in their use-of-force general orders which allows nearly anything to be used in extreme cases.
These cases are extremely rare; I recall reading an article in one of the law-enforcement glossies (Police Chief, I think) to the effect that though nearly every officer carries some sort of knife, the editors were unable to find a single instance of an officer using one as a weapon.
That article was written several years ago, I believe there have been several since.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

MJS said:


> Glad that things worked out well for the officer.  It could have taken a much worse turn.  Of course, I'm sure some member of the media or public, will turn the story around, making the deputy seem like the bad guy.


 No doubt....that's what sells papers.  The court will view it for what it is, though, and that's what really matters in the long run.  The drive-by media will do whatever it does.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Actually, I searched for this last night, and I really didn't find anything negative on the officer.  Most was a rehash of the press release, some had additional names, but most articles didn't seem slanted one way or the other.


That's good......


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

Bikewr said:


> Most departments have some sort of "or any other weapon" clause in their use-of-force general orders which allows nearly anything to be used in extreme cases.
> These cases are extremely rare; I recall reading an article in one of the law-enforcement glossies (Police Chief, I think) to the effect that though nearly every officer carries some sort of knife, the editors were unable to find a single instance of an officer using one as a weapon.
> That article was written several years ago, I believe there have been several since.


I suspect we'll see more and more as the benefit of knife training, via the influence of FMA's on law enforcement training (and there is increasing influence) is felt......for the better I believe......as you'll see the knife used as described here, to prevent gun disarms that are typically the cause of death in over 10% of law enforcement murders.


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## kyosa (Feb 2, 2009)

My Dept "frowns" on any one carrying fixed blade knives and some Dept.'s outright forbit fixed blade knives.


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## Hudson69 (Apr 2, 2009)

Carrying a fixed blade where you can get to it with either hand has been pushed of late in my department's DT in-service classes.  Wish I could say I thought of it but it was a couple of SWAT guys who brought it up.  I now carry one behind my spare mags in easy reach of either hand and it tends to blend and not be too obvious.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 2, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> I now carry one behind my spare mags in easy reach of either hand and it tends to blend and not be too obvious.



which knife?


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## KenpoTex (Apr 2, 2009)

> He went to arrest Mr. Smith and had one of his wrists in cuffs when Mr. Smith turned around and began bludgeoning the officer with the cuffs, using them "like brass knuckles," Sgt. Vogel said.
> *Mr. Smith backed him into a desk and hit him several times before grabbing for the officer's gun, unsnapping the holster.
> The officer then frantically pulled a knife from his belt and stabbed Mr. Smith in the stomach.* Mr. Smith continued to fight the officer until he was pushed over and Tasered by another police officer who had arrived for backup.


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09089/959279-53.stm


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## CHAOS (Apr 7, 2009)

A trick I learned is use a smaller fixed blade, like the Ka-Bar angled blade with the flat plastic sheath, and attach it to your pants belt, on the weak side. Then put your duty rig on over it. Your radio and other items will slightly "hide" or cammoflauge the handle sticking up and won't appear so "officious" or frightening to the average joe. And it won't grab the attention of the Chief, or any other, "don't appear intimidating", brass that may have a problem with a visible fixed blade on your belt.


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## CHAOS (Apr 7, 2009)

Guess I shoulda read all the posts before sending my quick reply. Anyway, if you are going to cary a knife of any kind for back up, then train with it. If you cant consistantly cut a 1/2 inch free hanging rope with one cut, then you need to practice. And, if your folder won't stay locked open with a significant stab, or strike, then toss it. I learned that the locking mechanism on the Smith and Wesson "SWAT", and "Baby SWAT" will not hold up to a decent thrust into plywood. Both folded on me during thrusting drills. And I wasn't using extreme force either. I was just practicing targeting with the knife. It seems that the position of the fingers around the lock caused it to depress and dissengage during a common thrust and twist-retraction. Fixed blades will "target" differently from each other, and just like the Samurai, you need to be able to draw smoothly and precisly for grab releases. Remember, as law enforcement, we took an oath to serve first, then protect. And the translation of Samurai is, "One who Serves". So we are obligated by Oath, and Tradition, to master every weapon on our belt, and be ready to engage in combat at any moment.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 7, 2009)

CHAOS said:


> Anyway, if you are going to cary a knife of any kind for back up, then train with it. *If you cant consistantly cut a 1/2 inch free hanging rope with one cut, then you need to practice.*


Is the BG going to hit me with a rope?


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