# Martial Arts Based on attacking pressure points



## brmoore134

What are forms of martial arts based on the attacking of pressure points?


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## blackswordshinobi

dim mak  it in  kung fu and ninjutsu and  karate in some practies of it


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## Aiki Lee

Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu found in the takamatsuden lineages have teachings on these pressure points. I find them quite effective.


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## Buka

I think every striking art teaches areas of the body to attack, both for safety in training and good self defense. Some arts do it more than others, of course, but it's fairly easy for a student of any art to research and develop it as far as they want. I've seen some that go a little overboard, IMO, and I think that can be counter productive.


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## clfsean

FWIW... Dim Mak isn't a style or system or anything like that. 

It is a skill laid over other existing skills. You can "know" all the Dim Mak in the world, but if you can't deliver a strike, you might as well put on a cape & call yourself Batman.


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## Master Dan

clfsean said:


> FWIW... Dim Mak isn't a style or system or anything like that.
> 
> It is a skill laid over other existing skills. You can "know" all the Dim Mak in the world, but if you can't deliver a strike, you might as well put on a cape & call yourself Batman.



Well put: The authors I train with and that still go back to China on a regular basis believe all martial art regardless of the style owe thier roots to TCM with some using and practicing that knowledge with in thier forms and SD and others had but lost knowledge and skill and are left with myth and legend to explain applicaitions or mapping movements.


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## oftheherd1

I wouldn't say Hapkido is based on attacking pressure points, but in the Hapkido I learned, pressure points were certainly taught from very early on.  But they are mostly to facilitate defensive moves, such as preventing resistance, or taking an arm in a direction to apply a grapple.


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## Xue Sheng

Pick a CMA and you will likely find a pressure point attack or two but I would not way they are based on it


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## Madcity

I have a book saved on Amazon called Vital Point Strikes: The Art and Science of Striking Vital Targets for Self-defense and Combat Sports that seems to have received pretty good reviews.

As another user mentioned, I assume this information would be similar to Dim Mak in that it would provide knowledge that would supplement other skills.

If anyone else has already read this book I would be interested to hear what they thought of it?


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## Zenjael

Internal arts often practice the utilization of pressure points. Hapikido has awesome joint-locks. I have heard the term 'acujutsu' used to generically describe the practice of using pressure points, among others, in combat or for self-defense.


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## Chris Parker

Zenjael said:


> Internal arts often practice the utilization of pressure points. Hapikido has awesome joint-locks.* I have heard the term 'acujutsu' used to generically describe the practice of using pressure points, among others, in combat or for self-defense.*



Where? And by who? I ask because it's a rather bizarre term on a number of levels, and I don't think anyone else here ever came across it before you mentioned it.


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## Xue Sheng

Chris Parker said:


> Where? And by who? I ask because it's a rather bizarre term on a number of levels, and I don't think anyone else here ever came across it before you mentioned it.



Well I wouldn't say that.... I did hear the term once but it was used jokingly to describe acupuncture


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## MJS

Chris Parker said:


> Where? And by who? I ask because it's a rather bizarre term on a number of levels, and I don't think anyone else here ever came across it before you mentioned it.



I haven't heard of it either Chris, but something tells me you'll be waiting a long time for an answer...lol.  I'm wondering if perhaps he means Kyusho Jitsu.


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## Chris Parker

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what he thinks he means as well, but he said "I have heard the term acujutsu used....". And, as the term doesn't seem to exist, I'm interested as to who he heard it from.


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## oaktree

When I did a Google search acujutsu only
Comes back to things related to zenjael or shi shi baguazhang.


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## Chris Parker

So what you're saying is that it comes back to Alex, or a supposed Chinese system... despite the term being made up of English and Japanese components? Hmm....


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## Cyriacus

Apparently Google says the term Acujitsu exists, then proceeds to describe normal Acupuncture.
I suspect the Sites may be Viruses, just telling Me what I want to hear, off off keywords.
But I dont see any serious mention of a Martial Arts Method based on that name.



Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what he thinks he means as well, but he said "I have heard the term acujutsu used....". And, as the term doesn't seem to exist, I'm interested as to who he heard it from.



Google also thinks I surely mean Fujitsu. There are so many garishly unsuitable jokes I could make right now.


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## MJS

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what he thinks he means as well, but he said "I have heard the term acujutsu used....". And, as the term doesn't seem to exist, I'm interested as to who he heard it from.



Yeah, when I heard this 'acu' term earlier, I mentioned Kyusho, but it was either missed or ignored.


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## Chris Parker

So did I, Mike... but Alex has decided I don't know enough about martial arts for him to discuss things with me... ha!


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## Xue Sheng

Cyriacus said:


> Apparently Google says the term Acujitsu exists, then proceeds to describe normal Acupuncture.
> I suspect the Sites may be Viruses, just telling Me what I want to hear, off off keywords.
> But I dont see any serious mention of a Martial Arts Method based on that name.
> 
> Google also thinks I surely mean Fujitsu. There are so many garishly unsuitable jokes I could make right now.


Like I said the only time I have ever heard Acujitsu was ajoking reference to acupuncture.. and it was made by a friend of mine who wasan LEO/Aikido/Uechi-Ryu guy in reference to my wife who is an acupuncturist andwhy I should behave ... of course it was in response to what I had said whenI called him a brave man because his wife has a black belt in Kendo she got inJapan and he had katana and I think it a wakizashi hanging on his wall  

So it was not exactly public knowledge


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## oaktree

Hi Chris my google search comes back to martial talk and Alex's shi shi baguazhang.
 I'm


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## K-man

brmoore134 said:


> What are forms of martial arts based on the attacking of pressure points?


OK, getting back to the OP, the CMAs which contain fighting forms are all based on vital points. As such, the kata brought to Okinawa around the 1800s through to 1900 also were based on the ability to hit those points. So technically, karate is based on vital point striking. Bagua is a classic example of a CMA that targets vital points.

In karate, kata has been mostly relegated to something you have to do for a grading requirement or something used for competition.  The application of kata was closely guarded in the early days and now much has been lost. I have been studying the vital points within kata for years and there are many good books available on the subject.

As *MJS *said, it is called Kyusho in Japanese or Dim Mak in Chinese. These are not styles of MA but a part of them. Evan Pantazi and his colleagues have an organisation called "Kyusho" and have produced some really interesting material.  Perhaps the first Westerner to popularise vital points was George Dillman and he too has some excellent books available. (Yes, I know he is looked down on here for NT KOs but credit where credit is due.) The late Erle Montaigue is another who has produced excellent reference material. 

As has been said, if you can't get in and hit, then knowing vital points won't be of much use, but, if you can hit them, they are very effective. That said, we all target vital points every time we fight. Well known vital points include the groin, inner thigh, solar plexus, kidney, suprasternal notch, trachea, side of neck, jaw, temple, eyes, back of neck, etc etc.


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## GaryR

K-man said:


> OK, getting back to the OP, the CMAs which contain fighting forms are all based on vital points. As such, the kata brought to Okinawa around the 1800s through to 1900 also were based on the ability to hit those points. So technically, karate is based on vital point striking. Bagua is a classic example of a CMA that targets vital points.
> 
> In karate, kata has been mostly relegated to something you have to do for a grading requirement or something used for competition.  The application of kata was closely guarded in the early days and now much has been lost. I have been studying the vital points within kata for years and there are many good books available on the subject.
> 
> As *MJS *said, it is called Kyusho in Japanese or Dim Mak in Chinese. These are not styles of MA but a part of them. Evan Pantazi and his colleagues have an organisation called "Kyusho" and have produced some really interesting material.  Perhaps the first Westerner to popularise vital points was George Dillman and he too has some excellent books available. (Yes, I know he is looked down on here for NT KOs but credit where credit is due.) The late Erle Montaigue is another who has produced excellent reference material.
> 
> As has been said, if you can't get in and hit, then knowing vital points won't be of much use, but, if you can hit them, they are very effective. That said, we all target vital points every time we fight. Well known vital points include the groin, inner thigh, solar plexus, kidney, suprasternal notch, trachea, side of neck, jaw, temple, eyes, back of neck, etc etc.




the encyclopedia of dim-mak is the best reference guide. It also has application and healing for all points.  It's big id get the harcopy. 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Dim-Mak-Encyclopedia-Main-Meridians/dp/0873649230

the best arts to apply dim-mak with are the internal Chinese arts, not because of "Qi" though. the strikes should be into the methods, and if groom ht them it is icing on the cake. To practice a BOB is helpful at first, an two partner work with chalk and a red suit that's a story for another day.  

Best Gary


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## Flying Crane

GaryR said:


> the encyclopedia of dim-mak is the best reference guide. It also has application and healing for all points. It's big id get the harcopy.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/The-Dim-Mak-Encyclopedia-Main-Meridians/dp/0873649230
> 
> the best arts to apply dim-mak with are the internal Chinese arts, not because of "Qi" though. the strikes should be into the methods, and if groom ht them it is icing on the cake. To practice a BOB is helpful at first, an two partner work with chalk and a red suit that's a story for another day.
> 
> Best Gary



some of the reviews on amazon there aren't too flattering.


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## K-man

Flying Crane said:


> some of the reviews on amazon there aren't too flattering.


One of the reviewers is Lawrence Kane, another whose opinion I respect.  He gives it 5 stars.  



> From Lawrence Kane.
> 
> Of course pressure points are not a panacea. Nerve strikes simply do not work on everyone. In the heat of battle they are challenging to employ. They also become much less effective if the recipient has trained to "seal up" certain points, has certain mental disorders, or is in an altered state of consciousness due to drugs and/or alcohol. Having said that, a working knowledge of pressure point manipulations is a fantastic supplement to most any martial art. I consider them "extra credit" as it were, not a primary method of attack but a definite benefit nevertheless. No matter what art you practice, odds are good that if you look carefully you'll find them in your bunkai (kata applications).



I have a number of Erle's DimMak books, although not this one, and they are very good. The greatest value from a karate perspective is that you can determine the points that are being targeted in the kata and the kata gives you the sequence. 

I also have some of Erle's video and, once again, I think it is really good information.     :asian:


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## oaktree

GaryR said:


> the encyclopedia of dim-mak is the best reference guide. It also has application and healing for all points.  It's big id get the harcopy.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/The-Dim-Mak-Encyclopedia-Main-Meridians/dp/0873649230
> 
> the best arts to apply dim-mak with are the internal Chinese arts, not because of "Qi" though. the strikes should be into the methods, and if groom ht them it is icing on the cake. To practice a BOB is helpful at first, an two partner work with chalk and a red suit that's a story for another day.
> 
> Best Gary



As I have said before, Most professors teaching in China on Chinese medicine dismiss the notion of Dian xue or Dim mak they believe it belongs in the realm of movies.
 Of course the points used in Dian xue would heal you because they are either 1.on one of the Jingluo channels or 2.an ashi point meaning sore point not on one of the Jingluo.


 In Taijiquan,Baguazhang and Xingyiquan I have not read about Dian xue, but I have read about masters of those styles hitting someone really hard.


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## WC_lun

Most TCMA I've come across have pressure points, both strikes and grabs, in thier system.  Keep in mind that pressure point  usage is a tool of a system, not a stand alone martial art at all.  The main reason for this is because pressure points are never the same on each individual you will encounter.  Due to muscle coverage, on some people they will be deeper, meaning harder to activate.  Others, due to difference in growth, will be in slghtly different spots.  On pressure points, being off even a little can render a spot ineffective.  You do not have the luxary to feel your way to it, as you would in Chinese medicine.  Also, some of the points used for pain initiation just are not effective on some people with higher pain tolerances.

Given all the above, initiating pressure points can be very helpful and effective in martial arts.  Though you must know the limitations as well.  To think you can read a book and then be able to defeat anyone with a couple of touches is fantasy.  Fun to think about until you rely on it to save your backside.


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## K-man

oaktree said:


> As I have said before, Most professors teaching in China on Chinese medicine dismiss the notion of Dian xue or Dim mak they believe it belongs in the realm of movies.
> 
> In Taijiquan,Baguazhang and Xingyiquan I have not read about Dian xue, but I have read about masters of those styles hitting someone really hard.


First statement is a bit hard to prove or disprove.

Second observation  ...  just do a google search.  



WC_lun said:


> Given all the above, initiating pressure points can be very helpful and effective in martial arts. Though you must know the limitations as well. To think you can read a book and then be able to defeat anyone with a couple of touches is fantasy. Fun to think about until you rely on it to save your backside.


I feel that it is important to differentiate between the nerve points that you are referring to and the blood points.

That said, in an altercation, if you can strike the right area you are going to achieve a better outcome. If you don't even try to hit those places then I don't believe you are using your martial art skills. All traditional MAs target vital points.   :asian:


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## mook jong man

They work pretty well on the ground , pressing the tip of your thumb into that one just beneath the ear as you bridge and roll can help get someone off of you when other stuff fails.


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## Supra Vijai

I was recently talking to someone about pressure point fighting - it was most likely Mr. Parker but the exact memory eludes me - and I heard the best response "anywhere I hit you is a pressure point"

I like the acknowledgement from Lawrence Kane about the difficulty of using pressure points in a real fight under the effects of adrenaline when things are tensing up and moving points around or blocking them off. Another thing I got out of that chat was the real, practical use of learning about pressure points outside of acupuncture - you are learning targeting! When things get a bit more serious though and I'm not thinking clearly and logically, I'd rather stick to gross motor survival grips or flesh grabs to buy me time rather than relying on fine motor skills to hit, let alone find specific points.


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## WC_lun

K-man said:


> That said, in an altercation, if you can strike the right area you are going to achieve a better outcome. If you don't even try to hit those places then I don't believe you are using your martial art skills. All traditional MAs target vital points.   :asian:



Having solid structural integrity in a strike or hold is just as effective as a pressure point technique...in some cases more effective.  As I said, pressure points are a tool, like any other.  They are also a tool that becomes more difficult to use while under the effects of adrenaline.  Then take into consideration your opponent is under the effect of adrenaline too...and maybe drugs.  So many things become more important than hitting or pressing that right spot.

Depending on pressure points alone, is like depending upon a hammer or a screw driver to be the tool to use to fix your car.  Might be right, but might not be.


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## K-man

I learn Aikido from a guy who uses pressure points and vital points all the time.  The funny thing is, he has never studied or been taught them.  He even claims he doesn't use them.  The fact is, he is using the proper technique of his craft. He doesn't need lessons to instinctively know where to hold or where to hit because that is his training. What I have found in karate is total ignorance of where to hit. It is as easy to hit the right spot as it is to hit the wrong spot but if you have never been shown the right spot in the first place, then you are miles behind.  When we train I get my guys to be aware of the areas to try to hit.  There is a mistaken belief out there that you have to hit a tiny spot for PPs to be effective.  That is just not right. A lot of the best targets, for example temple or throat, have multiple points.  You would be hard pressed to strike there and not activate at least two.

If you grab someone's wrist, the chances are you have shorted out fire and metal points.  You don't have to study them, it just happens.  From there the kata show us the correct target for the strike. If you have been instructed properly this should be part of your instruction. Unfortunately I didn't get shown any of it in my original training because it was a sport based style.  Even now there are few Western instructors around who have the knowledge to teach PPs. Even fewer teach the link between kata and vital points.   Sad really.        :asian:


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## rickster

Practice "Gun Fu"

Aint nothing like the pressure of a fast speeding projectile entering flesh


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## oaktree

Hi K-man,


> First statement is a bit hard to prove or disprove.


 The statement I made was during a class on Acupuncture in Guangzhou university of Chinese medicine in which a student asked a question about Dian xue being used to kill people. The response was the professors response in regards to the common perception of it. 


> Second observation  ...  just do a google search.


Alot of it comes back to Erle for Taijiquan. But alot of statements like this give Dian xue its stigma:


> Dim-Mak literally means 			"Death Point Striking" whereby the practitioner is taught to strike 			to either one, or multiples of dim-mak points in the human body 			causing effects that range from a simple knock out to maiming and 			death, or even effects that manifest many years from when the strike 			was felt.
> Every movement in Baguazhang 			has a meaning and is aimed at the dim-mak points. Bagua is often 			referred to as "the art of overkill".


-http://www.taiji-bagua.co.uk/contents/bagua.htm

I don't dispute that in Internal Chinese arts we look/create openings and strike what is open even if it not a vital point which may allow us just enough time to use Qinna or Shuaijiao. Internal artist that I know do not spend to much time overly complicating things focusing on striking the arm to cause it to stop moving. We spend more time
focusing on sticking, feeling, following, rooting, developing the feel of fajin. So yes we hit vital points but we also look at what is available to us and adapt the situation accordly
no we do not practice death touches and that line of thinking belongs in movies.

Anyway just my opinion


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## K-man

oaktree said:


> Hi K-man,
> The statement I made was during a class on Acupuncture in Guangzhou university of Chinese medicine in which a student asked a question about Dian xue being used to kill people. The response was the professors response in regards to the common perception of it.
> 
> Alot of it comes back to Erle for Taijiquan. But alot of statements like this give Dian xue its stigma:
> http://www.taiji-bagua.co.uk/contents/bagua.htm
> 
> I don't dispute that in Internal Chinese arts we look/create openings and strike what is open even if it not a vital point which may allow us just enough time to use Qinna or Shuaijiao. Internal artist that I know do not spend to much time overly complicating things focusing on striking the arm to cause it to stop moving. We spend more time
> focusing on sticking, feeling, following, rooting, developing the feel of fajin. So yes we hit vital points but we also look at what is available to us and adapt the situation accordly
> no we do not practice death touches and that line of thinking belongs in movies.
> 
> Anyway just my opinion


OK. I think we are at cross purposes here.  I'm talking about using points in grappling or striking that give me an advantage in a confrontation. I'm not looking for a combination of points that will kill someone now or in two weeks. That is probably possible but the reason is probably straight forward in that there is underlying organ damage which, if not treated, will lead to organ failure and death.

I'm talking of using points in grappling where you can use the point of an elbow to cause a release, or a point to control someone, or a point on the skull to cause an easy KO, using the right place to grab, etc.

Now, WRT your reference. There are many things there that I would question especially the references to Qi. I'm not sure that the content was Erle's, as it is not what I have seen and read in some of Erle's books and DVDs. Apart from that, what on the page did you find offensive? 

The tracing of the history of bagua back to Dong is interesting. It implies that he developed the theory of Dian xue but the use of vital points in fact goes back much further. However, that really is no different to saying karate was developed by Sokon Matsumura. It all goes back to Kung Fu and the kata that were contained within.  Those kata all target vital points, just that they aren't normally taught that way, for a variety of reasons.     :asian:


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## oaktree

Hi K-man 
I think we will have to agree to disagree. 

If you feel this works for you and think that Dian xue and death touches are  in Chinese internal arts than more power to you.


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## rickster

The main problem with pressure points;

They do not ALWAYS work on ALL people.


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## GaryR

Flying Crane said:


> some of the reviews on amazon there aren't too flattering.



Well, It's still probably by a large degree the single best reference available on the topic, complete with diagrams and martial application, etc.  But a book only goes so far, Eli (Erles son) I'm sure still sells the DVD's, Dim-mak a-z series, etc.  Learn, try, then judge for yourself... 

Of course I must disclose my bias, I was certified as an instructor under Erle (RIP) over a decade ago, he was a wonderful man, and left behind volumes of material to learn from.  He wasn't perfect, he never pretended to be, but I'd put his material against most "master level" TaiChi lineage queens/holders any day of the week.  

Best,

G


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## oaktree

Hi Gary this is a pretty bold statement:


> I'd put his material against most "master level" TaiChi lineage queens/holders any day of the week.


 Would you say Erle skill is far superior to Chen Bing, Chen Ziqiang?  I would be interested to know what Taijiquan linerage holders you are refering to even more so in Chen Taijiquan.


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## GaryR

oaktree said:


> Hi Gary this is a pretty bold statement:
> Would you say Erle skill is far superior to Chen Bing, Chen Ziqiang?  I would be interested to know what Taijiquan lineage holders you are referring to even more so in Chen Taijiquan.



I would not use the term "far superior".  From what I've seen (not in person) of the two referenced gentlemen (if memory serves) --they have great movement, and tui-shou ability at the very least.  

Do you have a clip(s) of either doing any two man applications? Particularly methods starting from a non-push hands/cooperative context???  

As an aside, teachers and systems vary in strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't sign up for a TKD class and expect to learn good grappling or blade-work for example. 

best,

Gary


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## GaryR

Take it from someone who used to have the site "www.pressurepointfighting.com" (ridiculous I know): but I have used "this stuff" real time, and taught others to do the same, its not magic and it's certainly not a magic bullet.   

Before I go further I just wanted to state my opinion/experience on the  theory behind TCM and dim-mak.  I think it is basically ancient  pseudoscience. There are many correlations between meridian points and  vulnerable targets, etc, heck our ancestors weren't completely oblivious  to biology on some level.  I only like to teach the dim-mak points /  target that has an identifiable/known physiological reaction such a  strike.  

The best way to approach pressure points is to not worry about them until you have otherwise functional skill / techniques.  If you have a good instructor / art, then the dim-mak   / vital point strikes should be built in as you go--it will simply develop naturally w/practice.  Then as the student gains proficiency under pressure the targeting skill can become more refined.  

The real key is to be able to find / hit your target in the dark from any point of contact with your opponent.  If you move in and intercept a punch for example, from feel you should be able to have the awareness to dynamically and automatically flow into a method that will strike to an effective target, take their center, lock,throw, etc. 

Another "secret" to dim-mak, is the ability to put more pounds of force per square inch into your weapon of choice (one-knuck punch, palm heel)-specifically the pisiform bone (spelling?) is useful. 

 No method/strategy or technique should rely on dim-mak (a specific target) for success, but like i said before it can be icing on the cake, and sometimes, that icing can save your a@@. 

G


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## oaktree

Hi Gary:


> Do you have a clip(s) of either doing any two man applications? Particularly methods starting from a non-push hands/cooperative context???


There exist video of them teaching application but they are known to use Sanshou and Tuishou:




This video was done in my area my teacher and another person hosted Chen Bing at this event I think. Some of my teachers other students went to this but my teacher could not make it.  Chen Bing is coming this June i'll ask my teacher if I go if I can record some video similar to this of me and Chen Bing but I can not promise anything.
Chen Bing and Chen Ziqiang compete in this thing:


>


Chen Ziqiang is the one who is throwing the red one alot. 

I can't speak for the Yang generation holders can throw down like most Chen generation holders, But there have been times with 2 different Chen generation holders I have trained with that when some people were disturbing Taiji practice at the park they were ready to throw down.


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## rickster

K-man said:


> If you grab someone's wrist, the chances are you have shorted out fire and metal points.



From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls, I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.

Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.

Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair


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## Tez3

rickster said:


> From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls,* I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.
> *
> Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.
> 
> Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair



That tends to be more of a male to female thing. Men often grab women by the wrist with the intention of pulling/making them go somewhere.


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## mook jong man

rickster said:


> From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls, I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.
> 
> Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.
> 
> Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair



Well what about a lapel grab , they're pretty common , usually followed by a headbutt or a big right hand.
It's not something I would do but that would be one way to get their wrist, as their hand is grabbing your lapel , as long as your prepared to deflect the strikes that will be coming in at the same time.


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## K-man

rickster said:


> From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls, I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.
> 
> Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.
> 
> Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair


Depends if you are striking or grappling. Arm bars mostly involve the wrist. And, anyone working security will possibly have one hand on a wrist when escorting a patron to the door.  Even dealing with someone playing up at a party, where you don't want to hurt them but need control, could involve the wrist.

Then you have the situation when you are taking a weapon.  There are lots of occassions you could have hold of a wrist.


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## rickster

Tez3 said:


> That tends to be more of a male to female thing. Men often grab women by the wrist with the intention of pulling/making them go somewhere.



I was about to edit and state/include this. Bt the edit feature was not popping up at that moment


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## rickster

K-man said:


> Depends if you are striking or grappling. Arm bars mostly involve the wrist. And, anyone working security will possibly have one hand on a wrist when escorting a patron to the door.  Even dealing with someone playing up at a party, where you don't want to hurt them but need control, could involve the wrist.
> 
> Then you have the situation when you are taking a weapon.  There are lots of occassions you could have hold of a wrist.



You forgot Law Enforcement.

That said, I used the words "street/pub brawls".
This is a big difference
When a brawl is underway, no one was ever interesting in grabbing a wrist.


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## K-man

rickster said:


> You forgot Law Enforcement.
> 
> That said, I used the words "street/pub brawls".
> This is a big difference
> When a brawl is underway, no one was ever interesting in grabbing a wrist.


I thought law enforcement might have been covered by security, but, yes. That too.

Actually, in my post I said: 
_"When we train I get my guys to be aware of the areas to try to hit. There is a mistaken belief out there that you have to hit a tiny spot for PPs to be effective. That is just not right. A lot of the best targets, for example temple or throat, have multiple points. You would be hard pressed to strike there and not activate at least two.

If you grab someone's wrist, the chances are you have shorted out fire and metal points. You don't have to study them, it just happens."
_
My emphasis was on striking.  I added the wrist as an aside to demonstrate that we use pressure points without even thinking about them. I never intended my comments on the wrist to cover brawls.      :asian:


----------



## GaryR

oaktree said:


> Hi Gary:
> 
> There exist video of them teaching application but they are known to use Sanshou and Tuishou:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video was done in my area my teacher and another person hosted Chen Bing at this event I think. Some of my teachers other students went to this but my teacher could not make it.  Chen Bing is coming this June i'll ask my teacher if I go if I can record some video similar to this of me and Chen Bing but I can not promise anything.
> Chen Bing and Chen Ziqiang compete in this thing:
> 
> Chen Ziqiang is the one who is throwing the red one alot.
> 
> I can't speak for the Yang generation holders can throw down like most Chen generation holders, But there have been times with 2 different Chen generation holders I have trained with that when some people were disturbing Taiji practice at the park they were ready to throw down.



Ah, THANKS! Cool vids, I believe I have seen the first one before, hence my comment about good movement.  I would note that IME/Opinion--the Yang style is seemingly less able to throw down than some Chen stylists. (my background is mostly yang style) Also, you have to realize the percentage of posters who actively and intelligently discuss the topics here online is probably not statistically dis-positive of the state of the art(s) as a whole. 

That would great if you could get some Chen bing application footage! It's a little disconcerting that at this point no such footage exists??? Well, getting it will be fun for you at the very least, but _hopefully _many of us may be able to learn something from it.

However, I am still not convinced by the vids that the two gentleman's combat skill/methods are much _if at all _superior to Erle's.  (but I realize vids can be hard to convey skill through--touching hands w/all for comparison-hopefully in a friendly context)--*and *real & tested exp. level, can really be the only metrics to know subjectively and semi-definitively the caliber of the "master"s / arts combat viability. 

Moreover, there can be a small gradation between two instructors/methods/styles. When skill differential is not so clear cut, the ability to accurately predict which instructor or method is "far superior" or even "superior" is reduced proportionally. 

Anyhow, look forward to the clips if you can get them.

Best,

Gary


----------



## GaryR

rickster said:


> You forgot Law Enforcement.
> 
> That said, I used the words "street/pub brawls".
> This is a big difference
> When a brawl is underway, no one was ever interesting in grabbing a wrist.



Rickster is right (for the most part). As the saying goes (or at least as my friend Chris McKinley said succinctly- "don't chase a lock").  Why I am asking the question for clips other than the like of the above provided generously, is that I think these rules laid out by ERLE MONTAIGUE (from 1999 at the latest), are words of wisdom; 
*
"Art of Fighting 6/. Never use a lock or hold as your main fighting method.*

 Locks and holds do not work in a realistic fighting situation. I have  discovered this aspect of fighting through my own experiences and from  that of others who have survived street attacks. It is all right to use a  lock to control an attacker once he has been disabled by using a point  strike or some other striking disabling method. However, if you try to  use a lock or hold against someone who is trying to harm you, then you  will lose the confrontation. This is especially important in the street  when it is not usual for only one attacker to be attacking you! In these  cases, you would never even attempt to use a lock or hold as his  friends would have a chance to attack you at this time. Stun the  attacker with a strike to the temple (GB 3) or another vital point, then  you are able to take a lock or hold. This is greatly important when  fighting against an armed attacker. Most schools will teach that you  should grab the hand that is holding the knife or other edged weapon for  instance. These methods work fine in the dojo but in reality, you are  inviting defeat and or even death to use such methods. You must remember  that an attacker, especially one who is holding a knife, must be pumped  up in order to have the aggression necessary for such a deadly attack.  So grabbing his arm is not going to stop him. In the dojo, you might be  able to use a technique such as in *(Photo No. 4).* But if the  attacker is serious about doing you harm, and he knows what he is doing,  he will probably make use of his yang energy to rip your hands and arms  to shreds before bringing the knife back to kill you. *(Photo No. 5)*. & *(Photo No. 6).* 

 In the case of an edged weapon in the art of fighting remember the three  words; evade, bump and attack. Without writing a whole book on knife  defence it goes something like this. 
 Evade: He perhaps attacks using a lunge. (The same methods work for any  type of weapon attack from anywhere). Using a 'hinge' type of weapon,  you move your body out of the way by slightly turning to the side as you  slam his arm so hard that it damages his arm bumping his weapon arm out  of the way for that split second. *(Photo No. 7).* Notice that my  right palm is already up ready to strike to deadly vital points. In  doing this you have done the first two of the words, 'evade' and 'bump'.  You have also stuck to the above rules of never backing of and never  using a one/two type of method. Your defence has become your attack. Now  I am able to strike using deadly methods to points that will either  kill or drop him. *(Photo No. 8).* Then, and only then, when he is  down and out should you take the knife. The 'hinge' type of attack is  also one of those that will bring up the reptile brain causing your  energy to build up to a high level for the final attacks. 
 Using the reptile brain in the art of fighting works like this, every  time you touch the attacker, your own energy will grow causing you to  want to continue. Your own energy system will be enhanced by the fact  that you are borrowing his energy and sending it back to him. You are  using only one bit of energy and recycling it. In this way you do not  feel tired having to block, then build up more energy for the next  attack etc. Your first lot of energy (Qi) is re-used through the  attacker's body draining him of energy and building yours up.  

*Art of Fighting 7/. Never use pushes or pulls in self-defence.*

  This may seem contradictory as most people view Taijiquan for  instance as having many such techniques. Baguazhang and Xingyiquan  (H'sing-I) do not have this idea though. I think that the idea that  Taijiquan has many pushes and pulls comes from the incorrect idea that  the training method of 'push hands' is in itself a martial art or  self-defence art. Or in some way a fighting technique. However, push  hands should never be thought of as a fighting art by itself. It is only  a training method that teaches us timing, balance and how to move the  body when attacked. The attacking methods in basic push hands are only  there to take the place of the more realistic types of attack and  defence so that the practitioners do not harm each other. So if pushes  and pulls do not harm people, why use them for self-defence? The only  time you could use a push or a pull is to put the attacker into the line  of an oncoming car. The pushes are only there in order to teach the  very dangerous dim-mak point strikes inherent in all Taijiquan forms.  However, you will still see articles in prominent magazines on so-called  Taijiquan self-defence methods and the art of fighting where the  practitioner will use a pull or a push to defend against attack! It is  my advice to leave a class immediately the teacher begins to teach you  to do this is a realistic fighting situation. He is being fraudulent in  teaching self-defence that isn't. And it is dangerous for students to  have a false sense of security instilled in them by using these inane  fighting methods in the class. Sure, they might even work to some small  degree in the class, but it's a completely different matter in the  street when the attacker is really trying to get you! I have seen  teachers teaching small framed women or men to use techniques such as  'Lu' (roll back) in defence against an attacker.
 He attacks with a  punch so the attackee defends using P'eng. Then she takes the  attacker's arm and uses 'roll back'  to put him face down in the dirt!  Anyone who would use this type of defence for real is inviting disaster.  But this all comes about from teachers not knowing the advanced methods  of Taijiquan like the 'small frame'. Moves such as 'Lu' (roll back)  take on a completely different meaning when used in the small frame  mode. If we again take the above scenario when we are attacked by  someone with a right straight punch, we might again use P'eng. However,  this time we do not move backwards, but rather move our weight forward  as we do this thus putting his timing off.  Now, in small frame mode we  use 'Lu' but very quickly to deflect his power and again as we are still  moving forward. We do not use it to pull him forward, only do deflect  his energy for a split second, thus causing him to have to try to move  back to regain his balance.  In this window of opportunity, we should  attack with devastating point strikes to vital points on his head and  neck, like ST 9 (stomach point No. 9) using the right palm, and next to  GB 3 (gallbladder point No. 3, temple) using the right elbow.  We could  finish this if he is alone by now, and only now, taking him down using  our left leg while thrusting the left arm across his neck.  Following  this with fingers to the eyes while on the ground to completely control  him.  This last method would of course only be used if you were only  being attacked by the one person. "


http://www.taijiworld.com/art-of-fighting.html



Oh, also, to segway back to the wrist control issue: I think Controlling someone can be MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than simply hurting them.  Your drunk friend at a party, or the resisting suspect being cuffed, etc.  is harder to not damage the more violent he gets.  If there are more considerations like: more skilled aggressor, if weapons involved, less reaction time you are afforded by circumstance etc---it all matters.


Best,

Gary


----------



## GaryR

K-man said:


> OK, getting back to the OP, the CMAs which contain fighting forms are all based on vital points. As such, the kata brought to Okinawa around the 1800s through to 1900 also were based on the ability to hit those points. So technically, karate is based on vital point striking. Bagua is a classic example of a CMA that targets vital points.
> 
> In karate, kata has been mostly relegated to something you have to do for a grading requirement or something used for competition.  The application of kata was closely guarded in the early days and now much has been lost. I have been studying the vital points within kata for years and there are many good books available on the subject./QUOTE]
> 
> I hope and believe in many cases the CMA forms were based in part on vital points.  However, strict use of the "kata" like sequences (Especially when trying for point/vital strikes)--are only setting one up for a dirt nap. (this may not be what the above poster meant specifically...)
> 
> Re Dillman, I'm not sure when dillman first went "dim-mak" public, but for Erle it was in 1988, 11 years later he published an encyclopedia... It really doesn;t matter, and I may be wrong..
> 
> But my real problem with Karate application of Dim-mak  all other things being equal--is the applications are less dynamic, fluid, and potent. Thus, the icing on the cake of a self-defense method that was vital points / dim-mak --is now diminished severely.
> 
> An OLD conversation piece from an Erle / Dillman conversation highlights the above:
> 
> *"... Erle/. *How long does it take to teach this stuff to martial artists.
> 
> 
> *George Dillman/.* Martial artists who have been involved  in the arts for some time only need about three seminars because  they're doing the right moves but with the wrong interpretation.
> 
> 
> *Erle/.* What does one need to train in the techniques.
> 
> 
> *George Dillman/.* The kata will train you exactly as you  need to be trained. Everything is hidden in the kata that's all you  need. No variations. The kata is the self-defence exactly as in the  kata.
> 
> ..."
> 
> http://www.taijiworld.com/george-dillman.html
> 
> 
> George Dillman to my knowledge is a nice, and skilled man; but all things are relative, many karate practitioners "advance" to CMA like application after black belt level - why not start earlier, cross train at least!
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> K-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> As has been said, if you can't get in and hit, then knowing vital points won't be of much use, but, if you can hit them, they are very effective. That said, we all target vital points every time we fight. Well known vital points include the groin, inner thigh, solar plexus, kidney, suprasternal notch, trachea, side of neck, jaw, temple, eyes, back of neck, etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Gary
Click to expand...


----------



## Supra Vijai

GaryR said:


> Most schools will teach that you  should grab the hand that is holding the knife or other edged weapon for  instance. *These methods work fine in the dojo but in reality, you are  inviting defeat and or even death to use such methods.* You must remember  that an attacker, especially one who is holding a knife, must be pumped  up in order to have the aggression necessary for such a deadly attack.  So grabbing his arm is not going to stop him. In the dojo, you might be  able to use a technique such as in *(Photo No. 4).* But if the  attacker is serious about doing you harm, and he knows what he is doing,  he will probably make use of his yang energy to rip your hands and arms  to shreds before bringing the knife back to kill you. *(Photo No. 5)*. & *(Photo No. 6).*



Surely you are not saying that controlling the weapon hand of your attacker will get you killed? If so, I beg to differ. Strike to distract or disorient, absolutely. Keep their weapon hand secured at all times though! If you have no control of the weapon and your strike fails due to targeting, adrenaline (yours or theirs), lighting or whatever, the grip you hold on their weapon hand is the only thing saving you from a brutal and immediate shanking. We train "riding" our opponent's resistance so we can aim to minimise having the weapon ripped out of our grip but losing control of the weapon is not an option for us. 



GaryR said:


> K-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> *George Dillman/.* The kata will train you exactly as you  need to be trained. Everything is hidden in the kata that's all you  need. No variations. The kata is the self-defence exactly as in the  kata.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I realise this isn't you but rather a quote you have presented but still, kata is not self defence as it applies in the streets. Regardless of which system you are studying. Martial arts are not modern self defense and Modern self defense (such as RBSD) are not martial arts. They are two distinctly separate animals and need to be treated as such. I agree that there are things hidden in the kata and the principles contained can be adapted for a modern self defense situation. Actually trying to use a kata however is going to end badly. It's set up to deal with entirely different attacks, from different distances, angles etc that simply aren't from this time and place.
Click to expand...


----------



## GaryR

Supra Vijai said:
			
		

> Surely you are not saying that controlling the weapon hand of your  attacker will get you killed? If so, I beg to differ. Strike to distract  or disorient, absolutely. Keep their weapon hand secured at all times  though! If you have no control of the weapon and your strike fails due  to targeting, adrenaline (yours or theirs), lighting or whatever, the  grip you hold on their weapon hand is the only thing saving you from a  brutal and immediate shanking. We train "riding" our opponent's  resistance so we can aim to minimize having the weapon ripped out of our  grip but losing control of the weapon is not an option for us.



I agree in part with you, and from what I've learned from Erle in person-so did he. Ideally one should be able to evade/strike/control arm & weapon, and disable all in one swift move.  Ideal, as I think Erle's rule is harping on is often times unrealistic. Counting on it to save your life is reducing your survival % significantly IMO.  

But a blade is a contact weapon, not just a stabbing one.  A wildly flinging novice with a knife is very dangerous and difficult to wrist grab/control despite any --illusions / lack of proper training/exp.-- about how you may handle such life or death situation. (elbow, shoulder, head, and neck control can be used sometimes to greater affect)



			
				Supra Vijai said:
			
		

> I realise this isn't you but rather a quote you have presented but  still, kata is not self defence as it applies in the streets. Regardless  of which system you are studying. Martial arts are not modern self  defense and Modern self defense (such as RBSD) are not martial arts.  They are two distinctly separate animals and need to be treated as such.  I agree that there are things hidden in the kata and the principles  contained can be adapted for a modern self defense situation. Actually  trying to use a kata however is going to end badly. It's set up to deal  with entirely different attacks, from different distances, angles etc  that simply aren't from this time and place.



I completely AGREE with you here. In fact I think Dillman's last response is ridiculous.  Perhaps my post did not make my position clear, it was late at night. 

best,

Gary


----------



## Supra Vijai

GaryR said:


> I agree in part with you, and from what I've learned from Erle in person-so did he. Ideally one should be able to evade/strike/control arm & weapon, and disable all in one swift move.  Ideal, as I think Erle's rule is harping on is often times unrealistic. Counting on it to save your life is reducing your survival % significantly IMO.
> 
> But a blade is a contact weapon, not just a stabbing one.  A wildly flinging novice with a knife is very dangerous and difficult to wrist grab/control despite any --illusions / lack of proper training/exp.-- about how you may handle such life or death situation. (elbow, shoulder, head, and neck control can be used sometimes to greater affect)



Agreed completely about a blade being a contact weapon. If it touches, it cuts. My use of the term shanking was purely for example. Also agreed that while training for an ideal situation and trying to turn every situation into an ideal one is all well and good, sometimes things get out of hand and violence is extremely chaotic. Just to clarify though, we don't pretend we can do all of those things in one move, rather in a situation where outright escape isn't an option, we focus on controlling the weapon (and the arm holding it using gross motor actions) and then from there moving to strike/disarm/disengage safely etc. By no means do we encourage the illusion/delusion that you can cleanly and immediately catch the wrist of a knifeman who is intent on their purpose any more than we advocate catching a fist out thin air! I was just making sure we were on the same page 



> I completely AGREE with you here. In fact I think Dillman's last response is ridiculous.  Perhaps my post did not make my position clear, it was late at night.



All good! I know all too well how easy it is to miss things or not be as clear as I would like to be when all I want to do is go to bed


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## K-man

Supra Vijai said:


> I realise this isn't you but rather a quote you have presented but still, kata is not self defence as it applies in the streets. Regardless of which system you are studying. Martial arts are not modern self defense and Modern self defense (such as RBSD) are not martial arts. They are two distinctly separate animals and need to be treated as such. I agree that there are things hidden in the kata and the principles contained can be adapted for a modern self defense situation. Actually trying to use a kata however is going to end badly. It's set up to deal with entirely different attacks, from different distances, angles etc that simply aren't from this time and place.


Actually Dillman's quote was provided by *GaryR*, not me. However, that said, I agree 100% with what is quoted.  The problem is the teaching, not the kata. If the kata is taught for competition then it is for competition. Simple as that.  Most schools require students to learn the mechanical kata for promotion and this is as far as it goes.  Even when bunkai is provided it is nothing more than choreography. Attacker does A, you do B. Attacker responds with C, you do D.  That is totally wrong, even if the action might represent the kata.

Dillman was the first video I saw of the kata being used he way it was intended. His view is supported in print and video by others such as Iain Abernethy.  These people started me examining kata as a fighting system about 5 years ago. Now kata and its bunkai is about 75% of our training. Martial arts are not 'modern self defence' against something like a gun and I haven't actually looked at it in terms of defence against a weapon, but against any form of unarmed physical violence, kata works just fine. The angles are there but the distance is pretty constant. Once you engage, it is hands on until it finishes.   The way we teach bunkai does not rely on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack. Everything after that is a 'predetermined' response. Either the attacker blocks or he is hit. If he blocks, the kata continues. If he doesn't block, he gets hit. Simple. In reality the attacker would be lucky to block once, highly unlikely to block twice. To stop three moves at full speed would be virtually impossible.  You can enter he kata at any point and you can switch to another kata at many points through a kata if he situation dictates.

For you, it is easy to check it out. Just grab Chris and come over one night and I'll show you, hands on. I'd love to have you guys visit. 

Coincidently, arguably the world's top expert on the reality based use of the kata is a guy called Masaji Taira, from Okinawa.  He is in Melbourne this weekend and Brisbane and Gold Coast next weekend. He is brilliant. He was the technical adviser at the Jundokan before leaving last year to head a new organisation. I am looking forward to an inspiring few days with him.  PM if you are interested.      :asian:


----------



## Supra Vijai

Yeah sorry about that! I realised I'd made a mistake with placing the quote tag but it was a few hours later so wasn't sure if editing was appropriate 

Interesting points you raise there. I'll definitely have a chat to Mr. Parker about it. My comments were based purely on my own understanding thus far of kata (as they appear in our traditions of course) as opposed to a street assault. I wasn't referring to defending against a gun but against a modern unarmed assault only. Against a gun, I am a strong believer that your best defense is to do what the guy holding the gun asks you to do  Also, switching between different kata at will hadn't factored into my reply so apologies for that.

I work graveyards, weekends and other horribly inconsiderate hours at the moment but if I get a night off, I would definitely be interested in coming down and checking out a class! As it is, I'm sorry I missed you when you attended one of our workshops last year. Same goes for this weekend, the offer is highly appreciated, let me check my work schedule and I'll PM you to let you know if I may be able to join - provided it's ok with everyone involved of course.


----------



## oaktree

Hi Gary,



> That would great if you could get some Chen bing application footage! It's a little disconcerting that at this point no such footage exists???


Videos of people such as Chen Xiaowang explaining application is there. Chen Ziqiang san shou competition form is out there. So I am not sure what you are asking for.



> However, I am still not convinced by the vids that the two gentleman's combat skill/methods are much _if at all _superior to Erle's


 Well you have three different videos: Chen Bing's video is a friendly tuishou match, Chen Ziqiang is a san shou competition and Erle is teaching applications.
Erle has his own critics so I will politely leave it at that. Other Yang stylist have some issues with him and you can search on this forum or on Bullshido regarding it.



> Moreover, there can be a small gradation between two instructors/methods/styles. When skill differential is not so clear cut, the ability to accurately predict which instructor or method is "far superior" or even "superior" is reduced proportionally.


 Well when you say that he Erle is better than most generation holders in Taijiquan which of course is an opinion, it is a rather bold thing to say.


----------



## GaryR

oaktree said:


> Hi Gary,
> 
> 
> 
> Well when you say that he Erle is better than most generation holders in Taijiquan which of course is an opinion, it is a rather bold thing to say.



Hello, I'll get to more points/post responses when more time, I just wanted to clear up that you have taken my words out of context / misquoted me, I stated re Erle in general comparison; 

--"He wasn't perfect, he never pretended to be, but I'd put his material  against most "master level" TaiChi lineage queens/holders any day of the  week."--

Putting his material "against", is not the same as saying "better" or "far superior" as you inferred, I would say its "as good as" at least, and possibly better in some respects, but the jury is out on how many / and how/why, those are all good points of discussion, vids help...hence asking, links are helpful. As is respectful discussion.



Best,

G


----------



## GaryR

K-man said:


> ..., but against any form of unarmed physical violence, kata works just fine. The angles are there but the distance is pretty constant. Once you engage, it is hands on until it finishes.



Kata DOES NOT work just fine, in and of itself, nor do cookie cutter techniques and kata forms apply well in a real engagement. 

What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above?  If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.  

Find a grandmaster or blackbelt etc who has solo kata experience alone, -and I likely won't have to put my tea down to handle them.  (with no malice and in a friendly fashion of course).



K-man said:


> .The way we teach bunkai does not rely on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack. Everything after that is a 'predetermined' response. Either the attacker blocks or he is hit. If he blocks, the kata continues. If he doesn't block, he gets hit. -



I like the not relying on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack, but you lost me on the rest.  Initially you should have the intent to eliminate the threat to yourself in the most efficient / safe / legal manner, while moving into strike for example you are not anticipating any specific response, but your training should have built in some auto-reactions to a multitude of responses, and should be automatic under-duress.  

Trying to have "Predetermined responses" can be suicide.  Of course at first, techniques, kate movements ect. are taught and executed as pre-determined responses to pre-determined / anticipated attacks.  This is only step 1 (if you are lucky to move beyond kata). 

Trying to "continue" the kata in a real time situation is ridiculously stupid (nothing personal) - perhaps you did not mean it in this way, and I am mis-reading you, the net is imperfect in that way...Now if you mean - dynamically change to another technique that is contained in A kata (but in no particular sequence) - then I would agree, I just didnt read that from your post....



K-man said:


> .Simple. In reality the attacker would be lucky to block once, highly unlikely to block twice. To stop three moves at full speed would be virtually impossible.  You can enter he kata at any point and you can switch to another kata at many points through a kata if he situation dictates.



You may be right, with a properly executed defense/attack / or as I say "counter offensive tactics", should should get through quickly, in fact, you should get through instantly (around a 1 count), or NEAR that instantly, if your not--find a new teacher. (this of course does not apply if your training partner/opponent is REALLY skilled, more back and forth would be expected) - but it still has to be trained for, and built into your system/style. 

AHA, so perhaps before I was so harsh I should have read more carefully, it seems as though you may be saying that you "can enter a kata at any point" , so basically pick any technique or sequence thereof, and "switch to another kata at many points" --these two conditions together lead me to believe (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that you are simply saying --- One should use any technique / method from any kata at any time as the situation dictates. 

 Anyhow, even if the above doesn't apply to you, perhaps it will get the point across to someone who needed to hear it.  

In the broader sense I think the idea of "kata" is outdated, in a sense it was used (among other things) to catalog moves before the days of video.  Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic.  While it can serve as a memory device and help string together moves, many forms are not so well conceived.  One is better off learning a principle of self-defense/attack/movement, and then learning to execute that principle dynamically in numerous ways.(After/during learning bio-mechanical and movement principles)  

Many teachers do it the other way, they teach 100 techniques to give the student 1 principle.  The only kind of "form" or "kata" one should be doing if their only goal is self-defense (or they do not want to detract from that goal too much with Mal-training) - should be SHORT, FLUID, and VARIABLE motion/method drills.  Then,they can then be spontaneously strung together during a fight, and during practice, it is quite fun, and free flowing, and makes great fodder for two man drills. 

Best,

Gary  





.      :asian:


----------



## K-man

GaryR said:


> Kata DOES NOT work just fine, in and of itself, nor do cookie cutter techniques and kata forms apply well in a real engagement.
> 
> Not quite sure what you are saying here. Kata as it is taught, should be a fighting system. In a real engagement it will work extremely well *if you have been taught to use it that way*.
> 
> What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above?  If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.
> 
> The angle or direction in the kata gives you the angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside behind or 45 deg relative to him.
> 
> Find a grandmaster or blackbelt etc who has solo kata experience alone, -and I likely won't have to put my tea down to handle them.  (with no malice and in a friendly fashion of course).
> 
> Not entirely sure what you mean by 'solo kata'.  If you mean solo practice I will agree with you 100%.
> 
> I like the not relying on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack, but you lost me on the rest.  Initially you should have the intent to eliminate the threat to yourself in the most efficient / safe / legal manner, while moving into strike for example you are not anticipating any specific response, but your training should have built in some auto-reactions to a multitude of responses, and should be automatic under-duress.
> 
> I agree totally. That is exactly what I meant when I said that the attacker might block your first strike but would be unlikely to block the second.  The intent from the start is to eliminate the threat. I go along with the efficient and safe from my point of view, but if my life is threatened, I couldn't give a damn about 'legal'. If my life is not at risk I won't be fighting.  The training involves responding in a way that limits the attacker's response to your attack. If his response is slow, or if he doesn't respond at all, he is hit. If he manages to get an arm up to protect I know exactly where that arm will be and move to the next step, only if required.
> 
> Trying to have "Predetermined responses" can be suicide.  Of course at first, techniques, kate movements ect. are taught and executed as pre-determined responses to pre-determined / anticipated attacks.  This is only step 1 (if you are lucky to move beyond kata).
> 
> Again, I think you have totally misconstrued what I wrote. There is no predetermined attack. The exception here is when you are training a particular sequence. In reality there is no predetermined attack although you might have an indication from the attacker's posturing. Once his attack is launched you are reacting in the way you have trained, whatever that may be in that particular situation. From the position you are in you move into the kata and your attacker's response should be what you are expecting. Sometimes that doesn't happen and you then respond in the way that is appropriate to attack and once again depending on where you are you can move back into the kata.
> 
> When training there is no choreographed response. The attacker can do what ever he likes. Remember, our training is hands on, not at tournament sparring distance. Nothing works if you are not connected. This is not sparring.
> 
> Trying to "continue" the kata in a real time situation is ridiculously stupid (nothing personal) - perhaps you did not mean it in this way, and I am mis-reading you, the net is imperfect in that way...Now if you mean - dynamically change to another technique that is contained in A kata (but in no particular sequence) - then I would agree, I just didnt read that from your post....
> 
> I must plead guilty to being ridiculously stupid because I did mean it that way.     Perhaps you have never seen a fighting system performed this way.  I was only introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a vague idea it even existed.  But, you are right in that I do mean to dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the next step in whatever kata I am using.  The kata is a 'fail safe'. If the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets you out of trouble. However, if you haven't trained it that way it is no better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book.  And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of individual pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets so jealously protected?
> 
> You may be right, with a properly executed defense/attack / or as I say "counter offensive tactics", should should get through quickly, in fact, you should get through instantly (around a 1 count), or NEAR that instantly, if your not--find a new teacher. (this of course does not apply if your training partner/opponent is REALLY skilled, more back and forth would be expected) - but it still has to be trained for, and built into your system/style.
> 
> I would be hoping for one response, end of exercise, but in reality we must be prepared for all sorts of issues, not he least being adrenalin.  That is actually another good point for the kata. It becomes the conditioned response and none of it involves fine motor skills.
> 
> When we train with an experienced partner, of course he knows what is coming next and is prepared to block. We train slowly at first and pick up the pace. When I am the partner I don't think about the kata. I just respond in the way that any trained person would instinctively react. I don't comply with my partner. If we pick up the speed a little more you soon run out of defence. One attack is followed by another and another. You have nowhere to go. The is no going back and forth. You press at all times and once engaged you don't lose contact.
> 
> AHA, so perhaps before I was so harsh I should have read more carefully, it seems as though you may be saying that you "can enter a kata at any point" , so basically pick any technique or sequence thereof, and "switch to another kata at many points" --these two conditions together lead me to believe (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that you are simply saying --- One should use any technique / method from any kata at any time as the situation dictates.
> 
> Don't give me the benefit of the doubt.     You can certainly enter at any kata at any point and it may well be the only technique you use. If it fails to finish the confrontation you move to the next move in the kata. If you need another move you could move to the next move in the kata you are using or switch to another kata where a different technique follows the one that was common to both kata.
> 
> Anyhow, even if the above doesn't apply to you, perhaps it will get the point across to someone who needed to hear it.
> 
> In the broader sense I think the idea of "kata" is outdated, in a sense it was used (among other things) to catalog moves before the days of video.  Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic.  While it can serve as a memory device and help string together moves, many forms are not so well conceived.
> 
> I think that perhaps you have never seen kata used as a fighting system.  Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic. It is only used in training to build an automatic response. Ideally we are using just one or two moves.
> 
> One is better off learning a principle of self-defense/attack/movement, and then learning to execute that principle dynamically in numerous ways.(After/during learning bio-mechanical and movement principles)
> 
> That is exactly what we are doing.
> 
> Many teachers do it the other way, they teach 100 techniques to give the student 1 principle.
> 
> That is pretty much what I do in training against weapons.
> 
> The only kind of "form" or "kata" one should be doing if their only goal is self-defense (or they do not want to detract from that goal too much with Mal-training) - should be SHORT, FLUID, and VARIABLE motion/method drills.  Then,they can then be spontaneously strung together during a fight, and during practice, it is quite fun, and free flowing, and makes great fodder for two man drills.
> 
> Once again, that is exactly what we are doing. We are practising small sequences that are strung together. Once they are strung together they form the kata. Once you know several kata you can start to move between the kata. And it is great for two man drills. As I said in another post it is about 75% of our training.


I think the problem is that very few people are exposed to the type of training I am describing.  It is not what you will find in 99.9% of karate schools.  

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...4bmrCg&usg=AFQjCNFoECuGPeHWGZVpESmkW1eUsj9BrQ

This was the first time I met Bryson and saw this interpretation of kata.  The version he is using here is the basic one. You modify it to work for you but the principle remains constant.  *Just do the kata!
*
This particular seminar caused me to leave the organisation I was with to go out on my own. I have never regretted that decision.     :asian:


----------



## rickster

K-man,

Is Bunkai Kata, or Kata Bunkai?

Talou, Randori, Pumsae, Teul, Hyeong, Aka, terms given to what Occidentals deem only as "patterns"

Many Occidental cannot grasp many hidden meanings of martial art forums.


----------



## K-man

rickster said:


> K-man,
> 
> Is Bunkai Kata, or Kata Bunkai?
> 
> Talou, Randori, Pumsae, Teul, Hyeong, Aka, terms given to what Occidentals deem only as "patterns"
> 
> Many Occidental cannot grasp many hidden meanings of martial art forums.


Neither.  Kata is the basic or kihon form. It is a sequence of techniques that flow from one to the next.  If you like, yes it is the pattern or template. Depending on the style they can appear soft and flowing as in Tai Chi or quite rigid if you look at some of the Japanese karate.  

This kihon form is the form taught first and handed down from teacher to student.  It is if you like, the guide book. Now, people open the book, take a technique and say, "this is ABC".  That may be true, but, it may also be any one of a dozen other things as well. 

Most people never progress beyond this stage and most schools don't spend a lot of time on kata.

Once you start to speed the kata up it starts to lose the sharp edges and the stiffness and it starts to flow. In Goju there is a hard and soft aspect to kata. Between strikes the body relaxes ready for he next explosion, then relaxes again. This is more the advanced form of kata.

Most kata are performed in a manner that you don't need a lot of space. They change direction frequently and can often end back on the same point.  Many people have interpreted the turns as meaning you have multiple opponents, but I believe you only have one.  To involve two opponents necessitates choreography or how else does the second attacker know when to attack? 

From this form you can now 'unpack' the kata and work in a straight line. Where you have turned you now continue forward. 

Now you can introduce two man drills at any time. Quite often I will teach the drills before he kata. These two man drills are the bunkai.  How you interpret the kata in a one on one situation. There are, most times, multiple explanations for the techniques and part of the journey is discovering for yourself what these techniques could be. Is it a strike or could it be an arm break? Is it really a 'block' or is it a neck crank? Is it a flat fist or is it a knuckle punch? The possibilities are endless.

So to return to your question. The kata is the kata and the bunkai is the explanation of the kata in a practical sense.

As to what came first? That's like the chicken or the egg. Could be either, it doesn't matter.   :asian:


----------



## Master Dan

I would like to add that one of the most important things about Kata PoomSe what ever with a knowledge of PP and not just in theory but having experienced both the pain of the applications and result of applying them is should make a person more weary of protecting thier own vital areas and that in real confrontation there is contact and the pre covering move to atack or block as you like is more important before you even move hence being able to take a blow to get where you need to be. The best teachers are those who have had to really use it and have found it changes on many levels due to different people and environment adn the ability to over time naturally automatically indentify even gravitate mentally to targets of oportunity.


----------



## Flying Crane

GaryR said:


> Find a grandmaster or blackbelt etc who has solo kata experience alone, -and I likely won't have to put my tea down to handle them. (with no malice and in a friendly fashion of course).



who ever said kata alone?  Kata is one tool, one part of training.  No single training method alone gives the best results.  Kata, like sparring, like basics, like application, like...anything else you care to list, is one part of training.  It contributes to the overall development.  Nobody said, do kata and nothing else.



> In the broader sense I think the idea of "kata" is outdated, in a sense it was used (among other things) to catalog moves before the days of video. Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic. While it can serve as a memory device and help string together moves, many forms are not so well conceived. One is better off learning a principle of self-defense/attack/movement, and then learning to execute that principle dynamically in numerous ways.(After/during learning bio-mechanical and movement principles)



You are welcome to believe this, if you wish.  Others of us know this to not be true, but what IS true is that kata must be properly taught and properly understood in order to get the benefits from its practice.  In my opinion, the vast majority of people do not properly understand nor properly practice kata.  For them, you are correct, it does them no good.  And I do agree with you in that not all kata are created equal.  I've seen some for which I believe there is no value, they were poorly designed and poorly built by people who did not know what they were doing.


----------



## K-man

Flying Crane said:


> who ever said kata alone?  Kata is one tool, one part of training.  No single training method alone gives the best results.  Kata, like sparring, like basics, like application, like...anything else you care to list, is one part of training.  It contributes to the overall development.  Nobody said, do kata and nothing else.
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome to believe this, if you wish.  Others of us know this to not be true, but what IS true is that kata must be properly taught and properly understood in order to get the benefits from its practice.  In my opinion, the vast majority of people do not properly understand nor properly practice kata.  For them, you are correct, it does them no good.  And I do agree with you in that not all kata are created equal.  I've seen some for which I believe there is no value, they were poorly designed and poorly built by people who did not know what they were doing.


For my BB grading I had to 'know' eleven kata. From outside Goju we also had Naihanchi sandan.  At the time, I thought that was pretty good.  Especially because I knew the next kata to perform in competition and the following two for future grading.  In reality, I didn't 'know' one! Like most people I thought kata were there to be collected, like stamps. Oh, how little I really knew.

If students a hundred years ago spent five years learning Sanchin kata and the early masters knew only two or three kata in total, how stupid are we to think we can 'learn' so many kata in such little time.  

Now, I don't 'know' even ONE kata, but I'm working hard to change that.    :asian:

(BTW .. Michael, you are so right about useless kata.  I stopped teaching the first five I was taught the first day after I left my original style.  They were fine for practising basics but they had no practical application.)


----------



## Flying Crane

K-man said:


> For my BB grading I had to 'know' eleven kata. From outside Goju we also had Naihanchi sandan. At the time, I thought that was pretty good. Especially because I knew the next kata to perform in competition and the following two for future grading. In reality, I didn't 'know' one! Like most people I thought kata were there to be collected, like stamps. Oh, how little I really knew.
> 
> If students a hundred years ago spent five years learning Sanchin kata and the early masters knew only two or three kata in total, how stupid are we to think we can 'learn' so many kata in such little time.
> 
> Now, I don't 'know' even ONE kata, but I'm working hard to change that. :asian:
> 
> (BTW .. Michael, you are so right about useless kata. I stopped teaching the first five I was taught the first day after I left my original style. They were fine for practising basics but they had no practical application.)




yeah, I had done the same thing.  I studied several systems under several teachers, if I counted them all up I probably had upwards of 40-50 or even more forms, and I tried to keep practicing them all.  I didn't understand how to practice them, I just raced thru them.  Nothing but conditioning.

the truth is, if you have good forms and got good instruction, you only need 2-5 or so.  And five is really kinda indulging.  Kata does contain useful application, but in my opinion that is of second importance.  What is first importance, and what I believe most people do not understand, is that kata is a drill that helps you understand and develop the fundamental principles upon which the system is built, and the useful techniques in the kata are simply examples of how to use those principles.  If you don't understand the principles, then the application will only be second-rate.  If you understand the principles, then the application is only necessary as an example, and in a real fight you can apply the principles to any movement, and make any movement a powerful technique.  You do not need to use the techniques and applications from the kata (tho you can, there's nothing wrong with that).  They are just a vehicle to get you to open your eyes.


----------



## GaryR

K-man said:


> I think the problem is that very few people are  exposed to the type of training I am describing.  It is not what you  will find in 99.9% of karate schools.
> 
> http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...4bmrCg&usg=AFQjCNFoECuGPeHWGZVpESmkW1eUsj9BrQ
> 
> This was the first time I met Bryson and saw this interpretation of  kata.  The version he is using here is the basic one. You modify it to  work for you but the principle remains constant.  *Just do the kata!
> *
> This particular seminar caused me to leave the organisation I was with  to go out on my own. I have never regretted that decision.     :asian:



That's great you went out on your own, congrats!  

The sad thing is your likely right about 99.9 percent of karate schools  exposed to even that type of training (the type I saw in Bryson's clip) -  The depcited video is a great example of a beginner training methods in  the style/system.  BUT his material is still mechanically inferior and  inefficient comparatively; (with the caveot it is a WONDERFUL example of  his style, and better than many Karate instructors).  

However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of  kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation,  you are simply at a near beginner level, period. "Deciding" what to  use-or more distinctly "acting" or "reacting" -- should be largely based  on strategy and tactile sensitivity, not necessarily a "kata" movement  or sequence, although on of the former COULD manifest real time, and  that should be one of the goals of doing the kata in the first place.   Tactile sensitivity offers instant body information related to the  opponents power, position, balance, and direction, that kata cannot  teach you,  this information along with the visual cues (via peripheral  vision ideally) allow one to react without thought of any kata,  sequence, or particular move.  


More comments within comment below:

-------------------------
Kata DOES NOT work just fine, in and of itself, nor do cookie cutter techniques and kata forms apply well in a real engagement. 

Not quite sure what you are saying here. Kata as   it is taught, should be a fighting system. In a real engagement it will   work extremely well *if you have been taught to use it that way*.
---------------------

Perhaps we are just having semantics issues. Defining things and being specific is key to good discussion, so lets define:

 kata = a sequence of movements which has the function of at least -1)  teaching mechanics 2) movement 3) application 4) memory device for  catalog of methods/movements. Kata in and of itself is NOT a fighting  system, by no complete measure. Kata is merely a* component *of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component at that. 




-----------------

What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of   attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the   above?  If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you   angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way. 

The angle or direction in the kata gives you the   angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside   behind or 45 deg relative to him.

No, the angle or direction of the kata gives your the angle you are  relative to yourself, thin air, etc.  NOT relative to a real attacker  (unless of course they are present).  

------------------------
---


...I couldn't give a damn about  'legal'. If my  life is not at risk I won't be fighting.  The training  involves  responding in a way that limits the attacker's response to your  attack.  If his response is slow, or if he doesn't respond at all, he is  hit.  If he manages to get an arm up to protect I know exactly where  that arm  will be and move to the next step, only if required.

I agree, if your life is not at  risk you shouldn't be fighting.  I mention legal because your training  and de-escalation strategy ect. should take into account state  self-defense laws, proportionality of force, etc.  "Boundry" setting for  example is a useful training tool and DE-escaltion method that takes  into account several components to assisting in the affirmative defense  of---self defense (or defense of others). 

------
...From the position you are in you move  into the kata and your  attacker's response should be what you are  expecting. Sometimes that  doesn't happen and you then respond in the  way that is appropriate to  attack and once again depending on where you  are you can move back into  the kata......

I  understand what your saying here, you are simply not using the most  optimal training method /mindset, or our communication wires are  crossed.  

You should'nt be trying to "move into the position of  the kata", in the first place, but putting that issue aside for a  moment, you should not really be expecting anything in particular, of  course in many situations you can "count" on a flinch response (hand  covering face, crossing legs or moving back in response to knee strike  et al.) - in which case your method should already have a built in  adaptation/variation, or way of dealing with such "response". That  adaptation is not necessarily in the Kata, it can't possibly be unless  your kata is infinitely long.  But the real frame of mind I think  dangerous/inadequate is that where you say you "can move back into the  kata", you should move into what works, period.  If thats a part of some  kata-fine, if not-fine.  But again this is where tactile sensitivity  rules, not pre-thought sequences. 

When training there is no choreographed  response. The attacker can do  what ever he likes. Remember, our  training is hands on, not at  tournament sparring distance. Nothing  works if you are not connected.  This is not sparring. 

I  think direct kata application is a choreographed response (espcially  when your training partner knows what kata you are doing), the video  looked like a canned form response in several respects (I could be  wrong).  This is fine for training, a stepping stone, but like I said,  responding with a sequence of kata moves = choreographed to a large  extent. 

--------------------

Trying to "continue" the kata in a real  time situation is ridiculously  stupid (nothing personal) - perhaps you  did not mean it in this way, and  I am mis-reading you, the net is  imperfect in that way...Now if you  mean - dynamically change to another  technique that is contained in A  kata (but in no particular sequence) -  then I would agree, I just didnt  read that from your post....

I must plead guilty to being ridiculously stupid because I did mean it that way.  

Well, my friend, I know exactly what you mean, and your now promoted to  simply "ignorant" which I distinguish from stupid, and greatly  distinguish from ridiculously stupid  

Perhaps  you have never seen a fighting system performed this way.  I  was only  introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a  vague  idea it even existed.  

I gaurantee you I've seen fighting  systems/styles performed and taught this way before. I've also seen,  learned, and taught how to apply that same material in a better way.  I've also after friendly demos (some non-avoidably unfriendly) caused  numerous highly ranked karateka to abandon their old training completly,  or near completely. Most wishing they could undue years and years of  bad training and mechanics.  Hindsight is always 20/20, and in life I  don't think anyone has perfect vision.  

Of course Id prefer using other material which is far superior as a  starting template - the reverse punch for example is an example of  mal-training (along with much kata content). Back to pressurepoint  karateka----Back in the day Dillman and Moneymaker (one or both??) even  sent  me courtesy copies of their tapes (which I thought were GOOD for karate  as well).  But still, the movements are more rigid, lack the economy of  motion, and are breaking some basic bio-mechanical / rules of physics  that are holding them back, also even attempting to adhere to a long  sequence (if that's what your doing) is well...not helpful, despite how  comparatively helpful it was to what you were doing

-------

But, you are right in that I do mean to   dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the   next step in whatever kata I am using.  The kata is a 'fail safe'. If   the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets   you out of trouble. 



Its not really "dynamic" if  your are going to the next step in whetever kata you are using, I can  gaurantee you that there will be a situation where the next move in  whatever kata you are doing will not help you, or will not be the most  optimal move at least.  If your next reason is well--it could be a  different move in the sequence...then there really is no "kata" sequence  being used, merely an isoloated techniqe.  

The kata may feel  like a failsafe, but no pre=programmed response (especially one as a  sequence) is a good failsafe plan.  This is no "fail safe" plan for the  reccord, especially one that involves using the next move in a sequence.  

However, if you haven't trained it that way it is  no  better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book.    And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of  individual  pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets  so jealously  protected?

I understand kata is not a big  box of individual pieces, I give kata more credit than that!  In fact,  going to your instruction book idea-- I would liken each individual  movement in a kata a potential "book index" for a multitude of  methods/respones/martial actions, etc.  The map is not the territory  however, learning the map, the index, and the content is the  begging--and could be a LONG discussion--not to mention applying the  "book" real time is a disscussion that could go for volumes.  




When we train with an experienced partner, of course he knows what is   coming next and is prepared to block. We train slowly at first and pick   up the pace. When I am the partner I don't think about the kata. I just   respond in the way that any trained person would instinctively react. I   don't comply with my partner. If we pick up the speed a little more  you  soon run out of defence. One attack is followed by another and  another.  You have nowhere to go. The is no going back and forth. You  press at all  times and once engaged you don't lose contact.

Excellent,  great training, I also agree to press at all times and not loose  contact when engaged, but the reality is you have to train for the  worse, I add disconnects on both end of two man drills to prepare for  Mr. Murphy. 



I think that perhaps you have never seen kata used   as a fighting system.  Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic.   It is only used in training to build an automatic response. Ideally we   are using just one or two moves. 

I have seen it used in  every context, nor it is a complete fighting system in and of itself.   Of course a long series of moves is unrealistic, using a smaller series,  or series of two is of course much more likely, but not always possible  to plan.  Ideally it should be over in one or two moves I agree...

-------------------------

One is better off learning a principle of self-defense/attack/movement,   and then learning to execute that principle dynamically in numerous   ways.(After/during learning bio-mechanical and movement principles) 

That is exactly what we are doing.

It does'nt sound like it completely, nor does it look like it in the clip. 
---------

Many teachers do it the other way, they teach 100 techniques to give the student 1 principle. 

That is pretty much what I do in training against weapons.

Thats  what you should be doing for everything.  A weaon is in large part an  extention of the body, Kali people are fun to work with for this. 


---------------

Once again, that is exactly what we are doing. We   are practising small sequences that are strung together. Once they are   strung together they form the kata. Once you know several kata you can   start to move between the kata. And it is great for two man drills. As I   said in another post it is about 75% of our training.

---
Cool, great to hear, see the above...

Best,

Gary


----------



## K-man

GaryR said:


> That's great you went out on your own, congrats!
> 
> The sad thing is your likely right about 99.9 percent of karate schools  exposed to even that type of training (the type I saw in Bryson's clip) -  The depcited video is a great example of a beginner training methods in  the style/system.  BUT his material is still mechanically inferior and  inefficient comparatively; (with the caveot it is a WONDERFUL example of  his style, and better than many Karate instructors).
> 
> Of course it was beginner training method.  It was the first time these guys had seen it. I posted it it so that you might have understood the rationale, not of an example of it being applied.
> 
> However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of  kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation,  you are simply at a near beginner level, period.
> 
> And that demonstrates that you have not understood anything I have posted.
> 
> "Deciding" what to  use-or more distinctly "acting" or "reacting" -- should be largely based  on strategy and tactile sensitivity, not necessarily a "kata" movement  or sequence, although on of the former COULD manifest real time, and  that should be one of the goals of doing the kata in the first place.   Tactile sensitivity offers instant body information related to the  opponents power, position, balance, and direction, that kata cannot  teach you,  this information along with the visual cues (via peripheral  vision ideally) allow one to react without thought of any kata,  sequence, or particular move.
> 
> True, but that has nothing to do with whether you use the kata or not.
> 
> 
> Kata is merely a* component *of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component
> 
> That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I believe it is totally wrong.  I repeat what I said above "In a real engagement it (kata) will work extremely well *if you have been taught to use it that way*."
> you obviously have not been taught to use it that way. You are right when you say it is poorly used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of   attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the   above?  If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you   angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.
> 
> The angle or direction in the kata gives you the   angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside   behind or 45 deg relative to him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, the angle or direction of the kata gives your the angle you are  relative to yourself, thin air, etc.  NOT relative to a real attacker  (unless of course they are present).
> 
> Once again, this is your opinion. If you can see how the angles portrayed in kata are used, that is your problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...From the position you are in you move  into the kata and your  attacker's response should be what you are  expecting. Sometimes that  doesn't happen and you then respond in the  way that is appropriate to  attack and once again depending on where you  are you can move back into  the kata......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I  understand what your saying here, you are simply not using the most  optimal training method /mindset, or our communication wires are  crossed.
> 
> What you are saying is that you know better than the guys who are teaching this method of fighting. I very much doubt that.
> 
> You should'nt be trying to "move into the position of  the kata", in the first place, but putting that issue aside for a  moment, you should not really be expecting anything in particular, of  course in many situations you can "count" on a flinch response (hand  covering face, crossing legs or moving back in response to knee strike  et al.) - in which case your method should already have a built in  adaptation/variation, or way of dealing with such "response".
> 
> Yes. It is based on the flinch response. You respond or you get hit. And seeing I know where I am hitting I know where my opponent's arm will be if he manages to block.  I would call that a predetermined response.
> 
> That  adaptation is not necessarily in the Kata, it can't possibly be unless  your kata is infinitely long.  But the real frame of mind I think  dangerous/inadequate is that where you say you "can move back into the  kata", you should move into what works, period.  If thats a part of some  kata-fine, if not-fine.  But again this is where tactile sensitivity  rules, not pre-thought sequences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When training there is no choreographed  response. The attacker can do  what ever he likes. Remember, our  training is hands on, not at  tournament sparring distance. Nothing  works if you are not connected.  This is not sparring.
> 
> I  think direct kata application is a choreographed response (espcially  when your training partner knows what kata you are doing), the video  looked like a canned form response in several respects (I could be  wrong).  This is fine for training, a stepping stone, but like I said,  responding with a sequence of kata moves = choreographed to a large  extent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can think what you like. I am telling you there is no choreography in what we do. What you have seen in most bunkai is choreography.  There is no choreography in what we do.  You are free to do whatever you like .. but if you don't put your arm between me and my target, you will be hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to "continue" the kata in a real  time situation is ridiculously  stupid (nothing personal) - perhaps you  did not mean it in this way, and  I am mis-reading you, the net is  imperfect in that way...Now if you  mean - dynamically change to another  technique that is contained in A  kata (but in no particular sequence) -  then I would agree, I just didnt  read that from your post....
> 
> I must plead guilty to being ridiculously stupid because I did mean it that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, my friend, I know exactly what you mean, and your now promoted to  simply "ignorant" which I distinguish from stupid, and greatly  distinguish from ridiculously stupid
> 
> And you are becoming offensive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps  you have never seen a fighting system performed this way.  I  was only  introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a  vague  idea it even existed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I gaurantee you I've seen fighting  systems/styles performed and taught this way before. I've also seen,  learned, and taught how to apply that same material in a better way.  I've also after friendly demos (some non-avoidably unfriendly) caused  numerous highly ranked karateka to abandon their old training completly,  or near completely. Most wishing they could undue years and years of  bad training and mechanics.  Hindsight is always 20/20, and in life I  don't think anyone has perfect vision.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Might I ask where you have seen *this* system demonstrated. if you haven't seen this system then your comments are totally out of line.  Then perhaps you could show us an example of the 'better way' you mention.
> 
> Of course Id prefer using other material which is far superior as a  starting template - the reverse punch for example is an example of  mal-training (along with much kata content).
> 
> ???  Come on. What a load of .....  !  Are you really trying to tell us that a front punch is more powerful that a reverse punch? And the kata content?  And you claim to instruct in TCMA? Our kata came from Kung fu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, you are right in that I do mean to   dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the   next step in whatever kata I am using.  The kata is a 'fail safe'. If   the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets   you out of trouble.
> 
> Its not really "dynamic" if  your are going to the next step in whetever kata you are using, I can  gaurantee you that there will be a situation where the next move in  whatever kata you are doing will not help you, or will not be the most  optimal move at least.  If your next reason is well--it could be a  different move in the sequence...then there really is no "kata" sequence  being used, merely an isoloated techniqe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again, you have not understood anything of the training I have described.
> 
> The kata may feel  like a failsafe, but no pre=programmed response (especially one as a  sequence) is a good failsafe plan.  This is no "fail safe" plan for the  reccord, especially one that involves using the next move in a sequence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, if you haven't trained it that way it is  no  better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book.    And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of  individual  pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets  so jealously  protected?
> 
> I understand kata is not a big  box of individual pieces, I give kata more credit than that!  In fact,  going to your instruction book idea-- I would liken each individual  movement in a kata a potential "book index" for a multitude of  methods/respones/martial actions, etc.  The map is not the territory  however, learning the map, the index, and the content is the  begging--and could be a LONG discussion--not to mention applying the  "book" real time is a disscussion that could go for volumes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I also shared the same limited understanding for 20 or more years.
Click to expand...

Gary, you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.  You haven't seen the system so you have no way of judging it on its merits. You have preconceived ideas on kata and its value. I probably would have agreed with you a few years back but now we are at opposite ends of the spectrum.  If you are interested, I think there are two schools in the US. Carlsbad, CA and New Jersey.  There are some more videos of training in those venues on YouTube. Otherwise we will just have to agree to disagree. :asian:


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## rickster

You know what is truly attacking a "pressure point"?

Telling others that pressure points are useless in a real fight


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## GaryR

Hey K-man (do you have a real name BTW?-mine is actually Gary, or you can call me Gazz being an Ozzie)

I thought I'd start by replying to the last bit first. (My responses are all in green in case you didnt notice...)

"Gary, you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.  You haven't seen  the system so you have no way of judging it on its merits. You have  preconceived ideas on kata and its value. I probably would have agreed  with you a few years back but now we are at opposite ends of the  spectrum.  If you are interested, I think there are two schools in the  US. Carlsbad, CA and New Jersey.  There are some more videos of training  in those venues on YouTube. Otherwise we will just have to agree to  disagree"

I  enjoy a good discussion, I only like to argue when there is a point to  argue, but I think a good argument involves people teaching one another  their side/position/information, and comparing to learn. 

I have  no preconceived ideas in general re kata and its value, by contrast I  have extensive experience --spanning decades, and have traveled  throughout the world.  While I of course haven't seen your particular  system/kata (beyond the provided clip)  I have taught and trained with  multiple instructors and 6 dan plus in your listed arts.  The  individuals were also quite "progressive" comparatively. I also stated I  see value in kata, it's not the end all be all. 

I'm always open  to being shown I'm wrong, or am mis-reading--I would appreciate any  clip links to You-tube, I didn't see any links in your profile.  

Ultimately if we agree to disagree, cool, I just think we are on the same page yet as to the list we agree on and why 

Carlesbad  is a few miles from LA, not much time for that now, but after July  (studying for CA bar exam now), I would be willing more than willing to  host a BBQ and swap some training methods with any instructor from your  organization that is friendly and willing.  We are brothers (and  sisters) in the arts, and ultimately, we should strive to better not  just ourselves.

-----------------------------------------------

Of course it was beginner training method.  It was  the first time these guys had seen it. I posted it it so that you might  have understood the rationale, not of an example of it being applied.

We are on the same page here, I am looking for / identified the underling rationale - the examples are neither here nor there. 
-------------------------------------------------

However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of   kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation,   you are simply at a near beginner level, period.

And that demonstrates that you have not understood anything I have posted.   

What demonstrates it?  Please explain how my quote is inaccurate or inapplicable to you (if it is)? 

---------------

"Deciding" what to  use-or more distinctly "acting" or "reacting" --  should be largely based  on strategy and tactile sensitivity, not  necessarily a "kata" movement  or sequence, although on of the former  COULD manifest real time, and  that should be one of the goals of doing  the kata in the first place.   Tactile sensitivity offers instant body  information related to the  opponents power, position, balance, and  direction, that kata cannot  teach you,  this information along with the  visual cues (via peripheral  vision ideally) allow one to react without  thought of any kata,  sequence, or particular move. 

True, but that has nothing to do with whether you use the kata or not.

Wrong,  what I mentioned DOES have everything to do with whether you use  exactly "kata" or not--unless you did not mean exactly what you typed,  or of course we are talking in two different contexts, which is also  possible. 
----------------------

Kata is merely a* component *of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component 

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I  believe it is totally wrong.  I repeat what I said above "In a real  engagement it (kata) will work extremely well *if you have been taught to use it that way*." 
you obviously have not been taught to use it that way. You are right when you say it is poorly used.

First  question; Have you ever used your kata in a real situation?  If so how  many moves/sequence? How did it resemble or not resemble your perfect  ideal form/application? 

I agree with you here in a bigger way  than you may think, a "method" or "principle" or heck even a specific  "technique" MAY and SHOULD work and manifest extremely well under  duress, if you have trained in the proper contexts. It sounds like your  group is likely training in a more realistic context than most, I can  see that from the clip.  

However, I am not wrong in saying that  kata is merely a component of a fighting system, unless you include in  the definition of kata two person drills, sparring, adrenal stress  training, ground fighting, weapons (practical) training, etc. etc.  Kata  as a solo form by itself is incapable of being a complete system.


---------
  	 		 			 			 				What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of    attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the    above?  If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you    angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way. 

The angle or direction in the kata gives you the    angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside    behind or 45 deg relative to him. 


 No, the angle or direction of the kata gives your the angle you are   relative to yourself, thin air, etc.  NOT relative to a real attacker   (unless of course they are present). 

Once again, this is your opinion. If you can see how the angles portrayed in kata are used, that is your problem.

---------------------
You  probably meant to type "can't" above.  Of course I can see how the  angles protrayed in a kata are used, that doesn't change the fact that  Timing, positioning, and movement while doing a  solo form are  potentially very different than reality.  I agree the form can train in  the angles of attack / defense, ect, but all is relative, I want to be  at the most advantageous angle to my opponent regardless of  consideration for any kata sequence in the process.

This was not  my opinion, this is an objective fact; "see[ing]" how the angles are  used in a kata are not the same as actually applying the angels relative  to an opponents unanticipated movement real-time.

-----------------------------

  	 		 			 			 				...From the position you are in you move  into  the kata and your  attacker's response should be what you are   expecting. Sometimes that  doesn't happen and you then respond in the   way that is appropriate to  attack and once again depending on where you   are you can move back into  the kata...... 


 I  understand what your saying here, you are simply not using the most   optimal training method /mindset, or our communication wires are   crossed. 

What you are saying is that you know better than the guys who are teaching this method of fighting. I very much doubt that.

--------------------------------------

Yes,  that's exactly what I'm saying.  I could be wrong, but I HIGHLY doubt  it. Perhaps with more video / information / discussion / demonstration I  can be shown differently, but like I said its highly doubtful,  especially given the breadth and depth of my knowledge and experience.  
---------------------------------



"Yes. It is based on the flinch response. You  respond or you get hit. And seeing I know where I am hitting I know  where my opponent's arm will be if he manages to block.  I would call  that a predetermined response."

Sure,  to that extent I agree, but beyond what you do after you  contact/connect should not be pre-determined per se.  There are many  "strategies" for dealing with what happens with when your structure/body  collides with that of your opponent, but thinking those strategies need  to be learned in a kata sequence, or applied as such is simply  incomplete.    

----------------
That  adaptation is not necessarily in the Kata, it can't possibly be  unless  your kata is infinitely long.  But the real frame of mind I  think  dangerous/inadequate is that where you say you "can move back  into the  kata", you should move into what works, period.  If thats a  part of some  kata-fine, if not-fine.  But again this is where tactile  sensitivity  rules, not pre-thought sequences. 

When training there is no choreographed   response. The attacker can do  what ever he likes. Remember, our   training is hands on, not at  tournament sparring distance. Nothing   works if you are not connected.  This is not sparring. 

-----

I think this is where we need to define choreography:
     -when the defender is anaware of what the attacker will do, but has  pre-determined an  action or sequence of actions-- that = choregraphy.  
   - when the defender is aware of what attack is being thrown, but has no predetermined response that too = choreography.  
      -Last, and most obvious is when all parties know what attack/response  will be used, or will be extremely likely to use===choregraphy.  

This  is not to say that choregraphy as detailed above is bad, quite the  contrary, it can be a VERY useful training and progression tool.  But,  identifiy what your doing, and exactly why you are doing it is key.   Claiming to have "no choreographed response", but want to move "back into" to the kata--seem mutually-exclusive? and this could be where our communication breakdown lies?

-----------------------------------------------




You can think what you like. I am telling you  there is no choreography in what we do. What you have seen in most  bunkai is choreography.  There is no choreography in what we do.  You  are free to do whatever you like .. but if you don't put your arm  between me and my target, you will be hit.

That is great, and barring evidence to the contrary I could even take your word for it. No worries. 

-----------------


And you are becoming offensive!

My  apologies if I've offended you.  I only wish to debate the methods and  not attack or insult the people, IMO MA'ists should treat each other  with a sense of community.  Again, my apologies.  

  	 		 			 			 				Perhaps  you have never seen a fighting system performed this way.  I   was only  introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a   vague  idea it even existed.  



  	 		 			 			 				I gaurantee you I've seen fighting  systems/styles performed and  taught this way before. I've also seen,  learned, and taught how to  apply that same material in a better way.  I've also after friendly  demos (some non-avoidably unfriendly) caused  numerous highly ranked  karateka to abandon their old training completly,  or near completely.  Most wishing they could undue years and years of  bad training and  mechanics.  Hindsight is always 20/20, and in life I  don't think anyone  has perfect vision. 			 		


Might I ask where you have seen *this* system  demonstrated. if you haven't seen this system then your comments are  totally out of line.  Then perhaps you could show us an example of the  'better way' you mention.
--------------
First  please define "THIS" system, and if its very unique, I have not seen it  demonstrated beyond the video you have linked.  Without a name / link /  video, how can I be expected to know more than what I have learned /  miscontrued through you or seen on that clip and read in your profile?

If you would like to have me show you a "better way" I would be happy too.  I am not here to be a jerk, or a mouthboxer , but so share and learn.   If I end up learning something from you, great, vice verse, great!! 

If  you could video a specific principle or method, or kata section, also  explaining how you are applying it and why, and how it fits into your  overall training strategy I will respond with a video in kind  demonstrating what I believe to be a "better way",  I have a good video  camera and tripod.  I only believe in constructive criticism, what  better than a video demo of it, welcome on both sides; not as good as in  person, but something..

(choreographed  work is a welcome for comparison, it can serve to flatten the variables  such as relative conscious or unconscious cooperativeness of  "opponent", reaction times which can be inherently different, and makes  it more about the style than the individual (in part)). 

-----------------------
Of course Id prefer using other material which is far superior as a   starting template - the reverse punch for example is an example of   mal-training (along with much kata content).

???  Come on. What a load of .....  !  Are you  really trying to tell us that a front punch is more powerful that a  reverse punch? And the kata content?  And you claim to instruct in TCMA?  Our kata came from Kung fu.

First,  I never mentioned "front punch", the term is overly broad, and done in a  certain manner is no more powerful or efficient than a reverse punch.   Alternatively a traditional reverse punch altered to take into account  better use of centripetal, centrifugal force, torque, and better  structure, can too be affective--but at that point I would cease to call  it a traditional reverse punch.  

Second,  the kata content can be Mal-training if it is very stop/start,  pre-planned, or poorly constructed to bridge between methods among other  things... 

You alluded  earlier to not question the wisdom of the old katas. Why not return from  whence the art came?   I just think its ironic you would mention  it...and yes I am "technically" a TCMA instructor, but I don't teach  TCMA in any pure or traditional fashion, I teach only practically,  and/or to the goals of my students or training partners. 

-------------------



But, you are right in that I do mean to   dynamically change to another  technique, just that that technique is the   next step in whatever kata I  am using.  The kata is a 'fail safe'. If   the first move fails, move  to the next. The next move in the kata gets   you out of trouble. 

Its not really "dynamic" if  your are going to the next step in whetever  kata you are using, I can  gaurantee you that there will be a situation  where the next move in  whatever kata you are doing will not help you,  or will not be the most  optimal move at least.  If your next reason is  well--it could be a  different move in the sequence...then there really  is no "kata" sequence  being used, merely an isoloated techniqe.   			 		



Once again, you have not understood anything of the training I have described.


Then  please point out the error in my language/understanding as worded above  instead of a a mere condescending and conclusionary statement. 

--------------------------------------

The kata may feel  like a failsafe, but no pre=programmed response  (especially one as a  sequence) is a good failsafe plan.  This is no  "fail safe" plan for the  reccord, especially one that involves using  the next move in a sequence.  

However, if you haven't trained it that way it  is  no  better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction  book.    And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of   individual  pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets   so jealously  protected?

I understand kata is not a big  box of individual pieces, I give kata  more credit than that!  In fact,  going to your instruction book idea-- I  would liken each individual  movement in a kata a potential "book  index" for a multitude of  methods/respones/martial actions, etc.  The  map is not the territory  however, learning the map, the index, and the  content is the  begging--and could be a LONG discussion--not to mention  applying the  "book" real time is a disscussion that could go for  volumes. 			 		




And I also shared the same limited understanding for 20 or more years.

Again,  you are assuming your understanding is still not limited.  I always  assume my understanding is still limited in some contexts, just not here  unless its regarding something unique to your system I have yet to see  or read about....

You have also failed to explain how anything I  mentioned is "limited", plus, my language was vague, one could make many  bad assumptions based on a brief analogy/metaphor such as above.
-----------


 			 		 	  . :asian:


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## Supra Vijai

K-man said:


> *The way we teach bunkai does not rely on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack.* Everything after that is a 'predetermined' response.



I know I bowed out of this conversation a couple of days ago but it's been a fascinating exchange. Just a quick question about this that's been nagging at me, more so for my own understanding. I take the bolded part to mean that you don't expect the attacker to follow an initial attack with a pre-determined sequence of moves; as opposed to saying the attacker won't do anything after the first attack is thrown? In other words, you treat your kata training more in the sense of Randori? As for pre-determined response, that part I don't get at all. With us, Mushin (no mind) is a big component of our training and we are taught to not have any preconceptions or pre-determined motions in mind but to rather read the situation dynamically and flow as required adapting what we do as the situation changes. Having a pre-determined response at least as I understand it, goes directly against Mushin?

*K-man *I know the esteem in which my instructor holds you and I know that's no small thing so I defer to your experience and understanding of the arts. *Gary*, I have no reason to doubt you are who you say you are or to doubt your experience until someone proves otherwise so again I don't presume to know more than you or speak for you. That said, it does seem to me that you are both essentially saying the same things, just in different words. K-man, your approach to kata being used in self defense as I perceive it is not saying that "Kata A" performed in it's entirety as it was originally designed is the perfect response to a modern street assault. It seems to be more that in a modern assault situation, you will move freely from Kata A to Kata B etc as the situation dictates, taking elements from each to handle the situation. Would that be correct?

Gary, as for yourself, it seems to me that you are wording it more like I am used to where we broadly say that Kata is not the be all and end all for self defense but the lessons contained within are more than applicable. The main issue here - aside from the insults whether intentional or otherwise - seems to be the use of the word Kata. 
One side uses the term to cover all lessons and includes the freedom to "cherry pick" so to speak, moves from different Kata whereas the other is using Kata to describe a strict sequence of movements or attacking and defensive rythms that must not be deviated from. Ignoring that distinction, both camps seem for the most part, to be in agreeance that the lessons and strategies contained within Kata are universally adaptable and applicable even in this day and age against a modern style attack. To put it into an example, I have learnt both from being told and from experience that a Jodan Uke (traditional high section block) can be a bit too slow to deal with a modern hook however the principle can be quite easily adapted into a jamming action that is much more gross motor and as a result, reliable under adrenaline. Higher return as we refer to it. From there, we might move into a hundred other things, each of which may come from a different Kata or again be a principle taken from one.

*IF *I am understanding correctly, K-man you would class that as successfully moving between Kata in a modern context whereas Gary, you would say we don't use specific Kata but rather apply the lessons within. Does that sound about right? Apologies if any of this comes across as presumptuos on my part or if I've completely missed the point. I blame the fact that it is 4:45 am and I've just finished a 12 hour shift if it's any use 

Finally, K-man, I just wanted to apologize for not getting in touch with you about Mr. Taira's visit to Melbourne. As mentioned earlier work has been hell with a spate of people calling in sick so I've been working back each night and it doesn't look likely to ease up over the coming week or two sadly. Hopefully the offer to come visit one of your classes is still on offer and I'm able to take you up on it sometime in the near future!


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## K-man

I haven't had much time to even think after the last three days of training with Taira Sensei.  And still three to go!    

I will reply to *Gary*'s post when I have a bit more time. But from *Supra*, the highlighted quote, in you post above, means that the attacker makes an aggressive move to grab, push or strike (or kick, but that's probably less likely than the others as an initial attack).  Now depending on that attack we will react an appropriate way to parry instinctivly and strike whatever is the most available target. Let's say technique '4' in the example I will give shortly.  


If we slow the attack down by a factor of ten we can see the initial strike coming. Let's say it is a right hand punch to the head. Without a crystal ball, I have absolutely no idea what my attacker's next intended, or unintended, move might be. He might have been coming in to hit with alternating punches or it might be that he was going to clinch, headbutt and knee. He probably doesn't have the first idea himself what nasty thing he has in mind for me, except he wants to damage me. If he doesn't know what he will do next, how on earth would I?  In the real world, I might even have to just cover up and wear a few before I can respond, especially if I was not prepared for the initial assault. 

So, mushin is where we're start. We have no preconceived ideas, we don't know what attack, if any, is coming but we are prepared to act instinctively when it does.  Our response is likely to be somewhere in one of our kata so without thinking we are 'in' the kata. Instinct and training keeps the kata flowing. We are still in the state of mushin as we are reacting by instinct, not by conscious thought. That would take too long. But the training we do conditions us to deal with the attacker's defensive response instinctively. So really, the mushin you talk of in your training is the same as mine. Just that you are relying on instinct alone for your moves. Your second move will come from your base training, mine is more likely to come from the kata. Same, same.


By kata and kata training I mean everything to do with kata. This includes the kihon form, the advanced form, the 'unpacked' form, the complete two man drill and the individual two man drills (i.e. the smaller 'chunks' of the kata that you would use). The broken up segments are basically ippon kumite. Kata is probably performed at about a quarter of full speed, advanced kata at about half speed and full speed is just that. As fast as you can move. For someone like Taira Sensei, with great fast twitch muscle, the speed becomes a blur. Even if you are watching, it is hard to see what he does until he slows it down. 


So, back to my example.


Kata "A" is   1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 ......


Kata "B" is  12 - 13 - 14 - 6 - 15 - 17 - 2 - 18 ......


We entered the confrontation in kata "A"  with '4'. With luck, '4' might finish the deal but it might have just put me into the position I can finish it with '5'. My opponent might just have been able to block '5' so I now go to '6'.  The reason I know I can go to '6' is that my position relative to him is such that he is restricted to just one chance of blocking. One arm is effectively not available for him to use.  Therefore what he does is give me a 'predetermined' response. He either gets hit or manages to protect with a move I have trained for, over and over. So now I go to '6'. Same scenario but this time, if he manages to block, I have the 'choice' of continuing '7' in kata "A" or '15' in kata "B". The training makes one move to the next instinctive. It does not mean that it is a 'choice' of '7' or '15', which would be time consuming, but an instinctive response of what is the best attack.


In reality that is more a training option than reality based. In the real situation it would be normally be all over after '6', or '7' if it was needed. However, in training, where we are working at slower speed and drilling, we can just move into and out of different kata.

Now, to look at your discussion of the Jodan uke. You called it a 'traditional high section block'.  I don't see it as a block at all. In fact I don't believe there are ANY blocks in karate. What you are doing is 'receiving' an upper attack. So with the response to the hook (right hand), normally I would sway back to allow it to pass, parry with the left hand and either trap or strike with the right.  That to me is 'Jodan uke'. Now, I agree that it would not be my first choice against a hook but it is an option.  

Now, I'm off for my next session with Taira San. I'll add more later.     :asian:


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## GaryR

Supra Vijai said:


> I know I bowed out of this conversation a couple of days ago but it's been a fascinating exchange. Just a quick question about this that's been nagging at me, more so for my own understanding ....   As for pre-determined response, that part I don't get at all. With us, Mushin (no mind) is a big component of our training and we are taught to not have any preconceptions or pre-determined motions in mind but to rather read the situation dynamically and flow as required adapting what we do as the situation changes. Having a pre-determined response at least as I understand it, goes directly against Mushin?



Welcome back!  I agree with your idea of Mushin, that is what I was talking about.



Supra Vijai said:


> *...*
> 
> That said, it does seem to me that you are both essentially saying the same things, just in different words. K-man, your approach to kata being used in self defense as I perceive it is not saying that "Kata A" performed in it's entirety as it was originally designed is the perfect response to a modern street assault. It seems to be more that in a modern assault situation, you will move freely from Kata A to Kata B etc as the situation dictates, taking elements from each to handle the situation. Would that be correct?



Nice observation!  We very well might be! 



Supra Vijai said:


> Gary, as for yourself, it seems to me that you are wording it more like I am used to where we broadly say that Kata is not the be all and end all for self defense but the lessons contained within are more than applicable. The main issue here - aside from the insults whether intentional or otherwise - seems to be the use of the word Kata.



I agree, I defined kata in my post to address that issue, you and I are on the same page here for sure. 


`


Supra Vijai said:


> ...whereas the other is using Kata to describe a strict sequence of movements or attacking and defensive rythms that must not be deviated from.
> 
> 
> ... both camps seem for the most part, to be in agreeance that the lessons and strategies contained within Kata are universally adaptable and applicable even in this day and age against a modern style attack.
> 
> To put it into an example, I have learnt both from being told and from experience that a Jodan Uke (traditional high section block) can be a bit too slow to deal with a modern hook however the principle can be quite easily adapted into a jamming action that is much more gross motor and as a result, reliable under adrenaline. Higher return as we refer to it. From there, we might move into a hundred other things, each of which may come from a different Kata or again be a principle taken from one.



That is a great observation, I believe you are correct, with the caveot that I believe a "strict sequence" def of kata can be as little as two moves that "must" be done in sequence. 



Supra Vijai said:


> *IF *I am understanding correctly, K-man you would class that as successfully moving between Kata in a modern context whereas Gary, you would say we don't use specific Kata but rather apply the lessons within. Does that sound about right? Apologies if any of this comes across as presumptuos on my part or if I've completely missed the point. I blame the fact that it is 4:45 am and I've just finished a 12 hour shift if it's any use



Spot on, thank you for taking the time to respond after a long day. :bangahead:


----------



## K-man

Hi Gazz. Yes, I do have a real name and some people do use it.  However, on the forum I'd rather stick to "K" or K-man. If we correspond by PM I use my real name.     

I'm more than happy to engage in robust discussion but we need to be on the same page.  I will discuss the merits of what I know, but I don't venture opinion on areas outside my sphere of expertise.

The guy We are training with at present is Masaji Tiara Sensei ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaji_Taira ). He is the most knowledgable martial artist I have ever had the privilege of meeting. I wish I could speak Japanese but, sadly, languages aren't my thing. His top man in this region is my teacher and his credentials are second to none. He is also a Jundokan Senior. 

I am not at liberty to post video that I have taken at training but there is a fair amount on YouTube from others.  Here is one typical of the training.     



     Just search "Taira Bunkai". 



> However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation, you are simply at a near beginner level, period.


  This is where I believe you are wrong. What we are doing is light years from beginner level, even though we feel like beginners at times. If I am at 'near beginner' level then I am proud to be in the company of some of the world's top karateka.   



> "Deciding" what to use-or more distinctly "acting" or "reacting" -- should be largely based on strategy and tactile sensitivity, not necessarily a "kata" movement or sequence, although on of the former COULD manifest real time, and that should be one of the goals of doing the kata in the first place. Tactile sensitivity offers instant body information related to the opponents power, position, balance, and direction, that kata cannot teach you, this information along with the visual cues (via peripheral vision ideally) allow one to react without thought of any kata, sequence, or particular move.


In our dojo we do a lot of 'sticky hands' and sensitivity drills. We carry that through into strikes, locks and takedowns. Basically it is like a form of Chi Na.  Tactile sensitivity to me is the 'soft' of Goju. So, although it is not kata itself, we move into kata bunkai from the sensitivity drills. While you say kata can't teach you about your opponent's power, position, balance and direction, it actually does when you move into the bunkai.



> Kata is merely a* component *of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component
> 
> That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I believe it is totally wrong. I repeat what I said above "In a real engagement it (kata) will work extremely well *if you have been taught to use it that way*."
> you obviously have not been taught to use it that way. You are right when you say it is poorly used.
> 
> First question; Have you ever used your kata in a real situation? If so how many moves/sequence? How did it resemble or not resemble your perfect ideal form/application?
> 
> I agree with you here in a bigger way than you may think, a "method" or "principle" or heck even a specific "technique" MAY and SHOULD work and manifest extremely well under duress, if you have trained in the proper contexts. It sounds like your group is likely training in a more realistic context than most, I can see that from the clip.
> 
> However, I am not wrong in saying that kata is merely a component of a fighting system, unless you include in the definition of kata two person drills, sparring, adrenal stress training, ground fighting, weapons (practical) training, etc. etc.  Kata as a solo form by itself is incapable of being a complete system.


I have never had to use kata in a real situation because I have only been studying it for the past few years. My last altercation was many years ago and it left my assailant on the floor in less than a second. Not that I'm proud of that because in hindsight it probably was avoidable.  

I believe that in centuries past kata was a family's fighting system, passed down through the generations. As you say, here are many other things involved in training, but it is the kata that is the system. So yes, I do include the two person drills etc.  Getting back to the initial statement.  Kata in normally to poor relation when it comes to karate training, but we are working hard to change that perception. It is not outdated but it is poorly used and even more poorly understood.



> What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above? If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.
> 
> The angle or direction in the kata gives you the angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside behind or 45 deg relative to him.
> 
> No, the angle or direction of the kata gives your the angle you are relative to yourself, thin air, etc. NOT relative to a real attacker (unless of course they are present).
> 
> Once again, this is your opinion. If you can see how the angles portrayed in kata are used, that is your problem.
> 
> You probably meant to type "can't" above. Of course I can see how the angles protrayed in a kata are used, that doesn't change the fact that Timing, positioning, and movement while doing a solo form are potentially very different than reality.  I agree the form can train in the angles of attack / defense, ect, but all is relative, I want to be at the most advantageous angle to my opponent regardless of consideration for any kata sequence in the process.
> 
> This was not my opinion, this is an objective fact; "see[ing]" how the angles are used in a kata are not the same as actually applying the angels relative to an opponents unanticipated movement real-time.


To me, the angle portrayed in the kata is extremely relevant and it relates directly to an opponent once that opponent is engaged. Remember, we don't do any 'sport sparring'. Our sparring is to move in, engage and not disengage. If we were to disengage you would be right in referring to an opponent's 'unanticipated movement'. However when we are controlling our opponent we know exactly where he is.

I will close this post and address the remaining issues when I have more time.     :asian:


----------



## K-man

> ...From the position you are in you move into the kata and your attacker's response should be what you are expecting. Sometimes that doesn't happen and you then respond in the way that is appropriate to attack and once again depending on where you are you can move back into the kata......
> 
> I understand what your saying here, you are simply not using the most optimal training method /mindset, or our communication wires are crossed.
> 
> What you are saying is that you know better than the guys who are teaching this method of fighting. I very much doubt that.
> 
> Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I could be wrong, but I HIGHLY doubt it. Perhaps with more video / information / discussion / demonstration I can be shown differently, but like I said its highly doubtful, especially given the breadth and depth of my knowledge and experience.


What Taira Sensai has been trying to do for many years is to restore the kata to the place it used to be before learning kata became like big game hunting. Just another thing to hang on the wall.  I can promise you. You do not know better than these guys. You might have similar expertise in your field as I have in mine, but Taira Sansei and his top students are in a different solar system, way ahead of us.





> I think this is where we need to define choreography:
> -when the defender is anaware of what the attacker will do, but has pre-determined an action or sequence of actions-- that = choregraphy.
> - when the defender is aware of what attack is being thrown, but has no predetermined response that too = choreography.
> -Last, and most obvious is when all parties know what attack/response will be used, or will be extremely likely to use===choregraphy.
> 
> This is not to say that choregraphy as detailed above is bad, quite the contrary, it can be a VERY useful training and progression tool. But, identifiy what your doing, and exactly why you are doing it is key. Claiming to have "no choreographed response", but want to move "back into" to the kata--seem mutually-exclusive? and this could be where our communication breakdown lies?


 The first point does not compute. Before you are aware of the attack you cannot have a planned response. And, the second point is no better. If I know what the attacker is going to throw, I know what I am going to do in response. But, outside of training, how do I know what an attacker will do? Final point is quite right. That is indeed choreography.  The sad part is that ALL bunkai you see normally is choreography.  However, it is of the style A does this and B does that. A responds with this and B does that.  That might have a place in some training but it has no place in ours.




> Perhaps you have never seen a fighting system performed this way. I was only introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a vague idea it even existed.
> 
> I gaurantee you I've seen fighting systems/styles performed and taught this way before. I've also seen, learned, and taught how to apply that same material in a better way. I've also after friendly demos (some non-avoidably unfriendly) caused numerous highly ranked karateka to abandon their old training completly, or near completely. Most wishing they could undue years and years of bad training and mechanics. Hindsight is always 20/20, and in life I don't think anyone has perfect vision.
> 
> Might I ask where you have seen *this* system demonstrated. if you haven't seen this system then your comments are totally out of line. Then perhaps you could show us an example of the 'better way' you mention.
> --------------
> First please define "THIS" system, and if its very unique, I have not seen it demonstrated beyond the video you have linked. Without a name / link / video, how can I be expected to know more than what I have learned / miscontrued through you or seen on that clip and read in your profile?
> 
> If you would like to have me show you a "better way" I would be happy too. I am not here to be a jerk, or a mouthboxer , but so share and learn. If I end up learning something from you, great, vice verse, great!!
> 
> If you could video a specific principle or method, or kata section, also explaining how you are applying it and why, and how it fits into your overall training strategy I will respond with a video in kind demonstrating what I believe to be a "better way", I have a good video camera and tripod. I only believe in constructive criticism, what better than a video demo of it, welcome on both sides; not as good as in person, but something..
> 
> (choreographed work is a welcome for comparison, it can serve to flatten the variables such as relative conscious or unconscious cooperativeness of "opponent", reaction times which can be inherently different, and makes it more about the style than the individual (in part)).


As you have admitted.  You have not seen this system and it is unique. That is what upset me most. That you would make derisive comment without knowing what was in fact being taught. There is limited material available on the web and that will have to suffice.

I would suggest that there are many effective ways of defending against an attack, depending on the martial art you practise.  To suggest you have a 'better way' without having seen this type of bunkai is nonsense. As for numerous high ranking karateka leaving their style to do something better, that is exactly what has happened here. 



> Of course Id prefer using other material which is far superior as a starting template - the reverse punch for example is an example of mal-training (along with much kata content).
> 
> ??? Come on. What a load of ..... ! Are you really trying to tell us that a front punch is more powerful that a reverse punch? And the kata content? And you claim to instruct in TCMA? Our kata came from Kung fu.
> 
> First, I never mentioned "front punch", the term is overly broad, and done in a certain manner is no more powerful or efficient than a reverse punch. Alternatively a traditional reverse punch altered to take into account better use of centripetal, centrifugal force, torque, and better structure, can too be affective--but at that point I would cease to call it a traditional reverse punch.
> 
> Second, the kata content can be Mal-training if it is very stop/start, pre-planned, or poorly constructed to bridge between methods among other things...
> 
> You alluded earlier to not question the wisdom of the old katas. Why not return from whence the art came?  I just think its ironic you would mention it...and yes I am "technically" a TCMA instructor, but I don't teach TCMA in any pure or traditional fashion, I teach only practically, and/or to the goals of my students or training partners.


I would like to know what you see as a 'traditional' reverse punch. Probably it is something we never practise because I believe a lot of martial arts teach a lot of basics badly. However, a reverse punch, done properly, is the most powerful punch.

As for the kata. You say it is Mal-training if it is pre-planned. Kihon kata is performed slow. Is that a problem? I intentionally referred to your TCMA background when I was saying that our kata was derived from Kung fu. The Chinese kata were modified by the Okinawans for whatever reason. We could go back to the original kata if there where someone to teach the applications. I honk that's a pipe dream. It ain't gunna happen, at least in my lifetime.




> But, you are right in that I do mean to dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the next step in whatever kata I am using. The kata is a 'fail safe'. If the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets you out of trouble.
> 
> Its not really "dynamic" if your are going to the next step in whetever kata you are using, I can gaurantee you that there will be a situation where the next move in whatever kata you are doing will not help you, or will not be the most optimal move at least. If your next reason is well--it could be a different move in the sequence...then there really is no "kata" sequence being used, merely an isoloated techniqe.
> 
> Once again, you have not understood anything of the training I have described.
> 
> Then please point out the error in my language/understanding as worded above instead of a a mere condescending and conclusionary statement.


OK, you are right to say there will be a situation where the next move in the kata will not be the optimal one. However, that is not to say it is the wrong one. I don't profess to know the bunkai to all the Goju kata. That will probably take much longer than I have left in this world. However, I do have a working knowledge of a number of the bunkai and so far I have been mightily impressed. Now, as to you saying move to a different step in the sequence, yes it can happen under certain circumstances. I haven't got the time or inclination to go further down that road tonight.



> The kata may feel like a failsafe, but no pre=programmed response (especially one as a sequence) is a good failsafe plan.  This is no "fail safe" plan for the reccord, especially one that involves using the next move in a sequence.
> 
> However, if you haven't trained it that way it is no better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book. And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of individual pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets so jealously protected?
> 
> I understand kata is not a big box of individual pieces, I give kata more credit than that! In fact, going to your instruction book idea-- I would liken each individual movement in a kata a potential "book index" for a multitude of methods/respones/martial actions, etc. The map is not the territory however, learning the map, the index, and the content is the begging--and could be a LONG discussion--not to mention applying the "book" real time is a disscussion that could go for volumes.
> 
> And I also shared the same limited understanding for 20 or more years.
> 
> Again, you are assuming your understanding is still not limited. I always assume my understanding is still limited in some contexts, just not here unless its regarding something unique to your system I have yet to see or read about....
> 
> You have also failed to explain how anything I mentioned is "limited", plus, my language was vague, one could make many  bad assumptions based on a brief analogy/metaphor such as above.


I know my understanding is limited. I was in the same rut as everyone else until recently.  I failed to understand the relevance of kata because my teachers back in time did not have the knowledge to pass on. The difference is that my cup is empty. I am prepared to go in to fill it with new knowledge. You're saying that your knowledge is limited, but just not here, implies you might not know everything about the martial arts but you do know everything about kata as a fighting system, and it isn't what I say it is.  Mmmm!  I've studied it and made it my martial art journey. You haven't even seen it and claim you know all about it.  Doesn't seem quite right.   However, it is food for future discussion.    :asian:


----------



## Supra Vijai

*K-man*, thanks for taking the to reply after what I'm sure was an exhausting couple of days  The confusion I had with the term "pre-determined" was addressed extremely well with your example. It's what we strive for as well just with a different terminology. We refer to it simply as managing distance and controlling your opponent or wrapping your opponent in space to get a touch more esoteric. Whilst we focus on this aspect moreso with our traditional work rather than our modern self defense, I can definitely see how you would be able to carry the principles over. Ideally, you handle an attack like a game of chess - at least that's the metaphor I associate with it - wherein you not only make your own moves but also manipulate your opponent into doing what you want them to even if they don't realise it themselves. 

When you say _" Your second move will come from your base training, mine is more likely to come from the kata. Same, same." _I agree that the ideas are the same just with different training methodologies  I guess that only makes sense given I am not a Karateka and you do not train in the Takamatsuden arts so comparing our arts to see which is "better" or "more correct" with our terminology or exact approach would be IMO a tad inappropriate as it's not an apples to apples comparison so to speak. I mean even within the Takamatsuden arts, the way we train is different to how members of the Bujinkan would train which would again differ from the Genbukan or Jinenkan. As I see it with my own limited understanding, if something works for you and your style then that is the main thing and that is what you should do. I must admit though that I am more interested now than ever to come watch you train and see your approach first hand. As for the comment on the Jodan Uke, I used the term block as it is commonly used by our students  As we are getting further through the ranks, we are being taken through the intricacies of what Jodan Uke actually involves and the idea that every "block should feel as if it is a strike" (paraphrasing a bit here). I do also agree with your defense to the hook, we have covered very similar responses although I have not heard it described as Jodan Uke so that's interesting! All the best for your remaining time training with Taira Sensei!

*Gary*, no problems about posting, I'm a tad addicted to the forums I'm afraid so I find myself on here when I should probably be sleeping or especially when I should be studying (I have my own exams coming up in a week!)  I'm glad my post wasn't too garbled or misinformed so as to paint myself in a less than ideal light though. I realised also I never actually said welcome to MT so "Welcome to MT!". Hope you enjoy yourself here and find some more stimulating and informative conversation/discussion such as this one


----------



## GaryR

K-man said:


> Hi Gazz. Yes, I do have a real name and some people  do use it.  However, on the forum I'd rather stick to "K" or K-man. If  we correspond by PM I use my real name.
> 
> I'm more than happy to engage in robust discussion but we need to be on  the same page.  I will discuss the merits of what I know, but I don't  venture opinion on areas outside my sphere of expertise.



Cool,  perhaps I'll PM you at some point for a real name.  Thank you for the  discussion, I think we are getting closer to the same page.  



K-man said:


> The guy We are training with at present is Masaji Tiara Sensei ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaji_Taira  ). He is the most knowledgable martial artist I have ever had the  privilege of meeting. ...His top man in this region is my teacher and  his credentials are second to none. He is also a Jundokan Senior.






K-man said:


> I can promise you. You do not know better than these guys. You might  have similar expertise in your field as I have in mine, but Taira Sansei  and his top students are in a different solar system, way ahead of us.



Well, you can "promise" all you like, certitude does not equate to truth, knowledge or experience.  I  am sorry if you are in a different "solar system" than Masaji, but I am  not.  I have reviewed several of his "concepts series" and I can point  to several distinct and constructive examples of how he could improve  many things, including but not limited too--the use of momentum, weapons  (hand), mechanics/physics.  But instead of generalizing, let me give a  specific example;  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRPBINJ1BC0&feature=relmfu

First, I LIKE the initial entry here, the mechanics and motion behind it are good,  not perfect, and could be improved.  However, but after that entry he  is cutting his own momentum, breaking his own structure, and failing to  counter the attack concurrently - and when does count its in a rather  inadequate / inefficient manner-around 2:16-2:5 is an example--(unless  perhaps there was another attacker behind him, but still the last  strike/contact could have been better.  The whole movement could be  improved in the combative context by applying the concept of "stick  adhere connect follow" --I would add "destroy" to that list as a  concurrent item. Of course you can not always count on "stick adhere, esp. with a fast boxer", but one  can still better use mechanics, momentum, and weapons (palm v fist  ect.) in the above example.




K-man said:


> "However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of  kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation,  you are simply at a near beginner level, period."





K-man said:


> This is where I believe you are wrong. What we  are doing is light years from beginner level, even though we feel like  beginners at times. If I am at 'near beginner' level then I am proud to  be in the company of some of the world's top karateka.



I don't think you are near beginner level, I just think semantics is getting in the way of our discussion (among other things).  We can just agree to disagree on forcing kata or a sequence of kata in a  dynamic situation (I think it a bad idea, you apparently don't).  

Forcing  a sequence to work in a dynamic environment does not appear to be what  you are doing.  Rigidly attempting to apply "kata" IS a begginer thing,  as it should be.  I think our comm wires are crossed here and our  training methods are a bit closer than we think.  



K-man said:


> In our dojo we do a lot of 'sticky hands' and  sensitivity drills. We carry that through into strikes, locks and  takedowns. Basically it is like a form of Chi Na.  Tactile sensitivity  to me is the 'soft' of Goju. So, although it is not kata itself, we move  into kata bunkai from the sensitivity drills. While you say kata can't  teach you about your opponent's power, position, balance and direction,  it actually does when you move into the bunkai.



That is  great, sticky hands/sensitivity drills, etc is wonderful, I have liked  what I've seen of the "soft" gojo.  Re--"It does when you move into  bunkai" may be right...but you have to "move into" bunkai, not just stay  strictly in the "kata".  Hence my point stands, and yours regarding  kata here about teaching power, position, balance, is MOOT by your own  words. 



K-man said:


> I have never had to use kata in a real situation  because I have only been studying it for the past few years. My last  altercation was many years ago and it left my assailant on the floor in  less than a second. Not that I'm proud of that because in hindsight it  probably was avoidable.



Avoidance is always the best policy, not much fodder for kata discussion, but I'm glad your ok and nobody is in jail. 




K-man said:


> So yes, I do include the two person drills etc.   Getting back to the initial statement.  Kata in normally to poor  relation when it comes to karate training, but we are working hard to  change that perception. It is not outdated but it is poorly used and  even more poorly understood.






K-man said:


> To me, the angle portrayed in the kata is extremely relevant and it  relates directly to an opponent once that opponent is engaged. Remember,  we don't do any 'sport sparring'. Our sparring is to move in, engage  and not disengage. If we were to disengage you would be right in  referring to an opponent's 'unanticipated movement'. However when we are  controlling our opponent we know exactly where he is.
> 
> I will close this post and address the remaining issues when I have more time.     :asian:



I;m glad you include two person drills, this basically puts us close to  on the same page at least! I think its outdated in part, and for more  reasons I care to get into now, but I do agree it is misunderstood  often.

I agree the angle is relevant, it's just not the whole  picture.  I also agree on control, although good, your teachers could  use some improvements--"ting" or listening skill / tactile sensitively  is also relevant here (you probably have a different term)

Best,

G.



--------------
I would like to add a *disclaimer *to  the above post and other relevant posts: The clip / teacher depicted is  highly skilled, and very  likely a highly competent teacher.  Karate of this caliber IS very hard  to find, as is this approach to application.  If someone wanted training  in Karate for whatever reason, I would recommend the particular teach, i  cannot speak to any others in the organization) The foregoing  statements  reflect purely my opinion. _(I consider Taira Masaji et al to be  public figures, and combative viability of martial arts a public  concern.  My opinions in no way include any malice, and are only meant  to discuss the objective material in a respectful fashion.)_


----------



## K-man

GaryR said:


> Well, you can "promise" all you like, certitude does not equate to truth, knowledge or experience.  I  am sorry if you are in a different "solar system" than Masaji, but I am  not.  I have reviewed several of his "concepts series" and I can point  to several distinct and constructive examples of how he could improve  many things, including but not limited too--the use of momentum, weapons  (hand), mechanics/physics.  But instead of generalizing, let me give a  specific example;
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRPBINJ1BC0&feature=relmfu
> 
> First, I LIKE the initial entry here, the mechanics and motion behind it are good,  not perfect, and could be improved.  However, but after that entry he  is cutting his own momentum, breaking his own structure, and failing to  counter the attack concurrently - and when does count its in a rather  inadequate / inefficient manner-around 2:16-2:5 is an example--(unless  perhaps there was another attacker behind him, but still the last  strike/contact could have been better.  The whole movement could be  improved in the combative context by applying the concept of "stick  adhere connect follow" --I would add "destroy" to that list as a  concurrent item. Of course you can not always count on "stick adhere, esp. with a fast boxer", but one  can still better use mechanics, momentum, and weapons (palm v fist  ect.) in the above example.
> 
> Ok, now we have something to discuss. Basically the organisation we have joined is a Kenkyukai or 'research society'. It is not 'teaching' but discussing and testing various concepts. Taira Sensei not only demonstrates various techniques and their variation but also demonstrates their limitations and potential pitfalls. Unless you speak Japanese you wouldn't know on the video which is which. In person it is different because you see by his expression what he is demonstrating.
> 
> In the training Taira demonstrates something and we play with the concept. We may start with a straight imitation then we tweak it to make it work smoothly for us. Then we build up the speed. Coincidently, we were working on Seipai bunkai yesterday. Any problems we encounter we discuss and Taira gives us options. There is no way you can post a clip, such as you have, and use it to critique his work. And BTW, I have never heard Taira claim what he does is perfect or that his applications work every time.  When he demonstrates an application, he also demonstrates where it might be stopped and how to overcome that obstacle. Most times it is with one of the drills we train frequently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry if you are in a different "solar system" than Masaji, but I am not.
> 
> 
> 
> I recognise my limitations. A quick search of the Internet shows that you do not.    Setting youself up as an expert in all styles will not cut the mustard on this forum.     :asian:
Click to expand...


----------



## GaryR

K-man said:


> Ok, now we have something to discuss. Basically the organisation we have joined is a Kenkyukai or 'research society'. It is not 'teaching' but discussing and testing various concepts. Taira Sensei not only demonstrates various techniques and their variation but also demonstrates their limitations and potential pitfalls. Unless you speak Japanese you wouldn't know on the video which is which. In person it is different because you see by his expression what he is demonstrating.



Sounds like a cool society, and great goals.  I'm not a newb - I don't need a translation to see the limitiations and pitfalls the man is demonstrating, most communication is non-verbal, and his gesticulations are GOOD.  Even discarding that argument as you may--many of my constructive comments / suggestions would stand / help regardless of his explanations for any of those movements. 



K-man said:


> In the training Taira demonstrates something and we play with the concept. We may start with a straight imitation then we tweak it to make it work smoothly for us. Then we build up the speed. Coincidently, we were working on Seipai bunkai yesterday. Any problems we encounter we discuss and Taira gives us options. There is no way you can post a clip, such as you have, and use it to critique his work. And BTW, I have never heard Taira claim what he does is perfect or that his applications work every time.  When he demonstrates an application, he also demonstrates where it might be stopped and how to overcome that obstacle. Most times it is with one of the drills we train frequently.



That sounds like a good training structure start.  

You said there is "no way you can post a clip, such as you have, and use it to critique his work" - I did not post a clip relative to this at all, perhaps you said it backwards; you meant to say there is no way I can really critique his work or your style via such clips?? But, semantics aside--as I said, I can and DID constructively critique the clip, but of course that critique only goes so far, seeing is not feeling, plus, teaching and training contexts vary.  However, my critique is squarely limited to what I can see, thus I give the benefit of the doubt on many things, I understand the limits between those mediums, but nonetheless my comments stand.   

Another point of critique where I am certainly not misconstruing (there is a text explanation) is in the concept 3 vid - he is handing the opponent a fulcrum and a lever, his wrist could be in a better position to distribute incoming force better, etc. There is simply not really a good excuse for planning to do a technique such as this.  Closing in on/intercepting an opponent  like this on an opponent is great in part, but then giving up structure-not good.  

Additionally, one should strive to stay on the "closed side" or "outside" of the opponents guard, this particular sequence seems to transition to the inside on purpose when staying on the outside with a more effective method would be just as simple or simpler.  Of course failure points need to be built in, one needs to be able to work inside the guard, and save one's skin in the face of executing a non-perfect techniques, but the sequence shouldn't build in physiological, bio- mechanical, principle of movement inefficiencies.  --No offense. 

On the positive note --Iif I had to pick out footage I like the most it is from .48-.55 (concepts clip 3), could still use tweaking, but good stuff-especially for Goju.  Looks similar to some rou-shou / push hands type stuff when the hands first meet up.  Perhaps someone has done a little TaiChi, or it could just be a product of his Judo training, which from the looks of his movement/application --is good.  



K-man said:


> I recognize my limitations. A quick search of the Internet shows that you do not.    Setting youself up as an expert in all styles will not cut the mustard on this forum.     :asian:



I recognize my limitations as well, nobody is perfect, as a martial artist one is forever a student.  

What "quick search" revealed that I anywhere claimed to be an expert in all styles? That is ridiculous. Its a statement with reckless disregard for the truth.  

The posted description of what I teach is only the extent of this bit which has been on my site for a decade or more (the site hasn't been updated in that long as well.): I teach "manly Taijiquan principles and applications,  but also includes some principles and techniques taught in its "sister  arts" of Baguazhang and Xingyiquan."

The description of what I do on my profile here says I teach a "Mix of Neijia arts, dim-mak & Military Unarmed Combat". 

I would say those two descriptions are consistent and definitely doesn't contain any claim to be an expert in all arts.  

Your baseless and anonymous defamation won't cut the mustard anywhere.  Your won't even share your real name in public. Nor did you take my offer on the video exchange, or address specific points in kind.  On the other hand,I am offering to give / giving specific critique and observation to improve your teachers teachers training clip/method/body mechanics-which I'm guessing is "light years" ahead of you.  Which means, you should be grateful that I would take the time to discuss and share such info.  The tweaks I could offer to Taira in the "seipai" 7 concept vid alone would be well worth their air molecules in gold to someone like him who seeks to (and does i'm sure-"travel world wide") teaching "amazing insights."  

As I have said before, and I'll say again (although I saw nobody else of teacher caliber in those clips)--he is excellent. Plus uses at the very least what looks to be the foundation of a realistic approach. For all I know I could teach him my "secrets" and he could come back a week later and kick my ar@# with my own material, that would be wonderful.  If we are not going to help one another what good are these forums? These global mediums? 

I am not saying his information is non-combat viable, or McDojo material - far from.  I think it a worthy template from which to offer advice, help some folks, perhaps learn some stuff along the way (or at least discover/dust off stuff) and work with some kind and potentially wonderfully skilled people.  

The first lesson and cup of tea is free, it would be worth your instructors time and/or your instructors instructors time to come see me, and/or exchange methods via video (does your instructor have a current instructional video?)I'd happily demonstrate in person or otherwise time and space permitting, and I'm sure all would have a great time.


regards,

Gary


----------



## GaryR

Supra Vijai said:


> I'm glad my post wasn't too garbled or misinformed so as to paint myself in a less than ideal light though. I realised also I never actually said welcome to MT so "Welcome to MT!". Hope you enjoy yourself here and find some more stimulating and informative conversation/discussion such as this one



Thank you! Good times!

G


----------



## K-man

GaryR said:


> I recognize my limitations as well, nobody is perfect, as a martial artist one is forever a student.
> 
> What "quick search" revealed that I anywhere claimed to be an expert in all styles? That is ridiculous. Its a statement with reckless disregard for the truth.
> 
> The posted description of what I teach is only the extent of this bit which has been on my site for a decade or more (the site hasn't been updated in that long as well.): I teach "manly Taijiquan principles and applications,  but also includes some principles and techniques taught in its "sister  arts" of Baguazhang and Xingyiquan."
> 
> The description of what I do on my profile here says I teach a "Mix of Neijia arts, dim-mak & Military Unarmed Combat".
> 
> I would say those two descriptions are consistent and definitely doesn't contain any claim to be an expert in all arts.
> 
> Your baseless and anonymous defamation won't cut the mustard anywhere.  Your won't even share your real name in public. Nor did you take my offer on the video exchange, or address specific points in kind.  On the other hand,I am offering to give / giving specific critique and observation to improve your teachers teachers training clip/method/body mechanics-which I'm guessing is "light years" ahead of you.  Which means, you should be grateful that I would take the time to discuss and share such info.  The tweaks I could offer to Taira in the "seipai" 7 concept vid alone would be well worth their air molecules in gold to someone like him who seeks to (and does i'm sure-"travel world wide") teaching "amazing insights."
> 
> As I have said before, and I'll say again (although I saw nobody else of teacher caliber in those clips)--he is excellent. Plus uses at the very least what looks to be the foundation of a realistic approach. For all I know I could teach him my "secrets" and he could come back a week later and kick my ar@# with my own material, that would be wonderful.  If we are not going to help one another what good are these forums? These global mediums?


 Gary, you are claiming to be the equal of a man acclaimed by his peers as the best in the world?  That is abject nonsense and saying that is not defamatory as you legal background will attest. As in Bullshido and the other forums you have posted on, whenever your credentials are questioned you revert to this silly nonsense of defamation and anonimity.  If anyone has three fifths of five eighths of bu@&$r all of a brain they can easily identify me from my previous posts so don't lay that on me please.

I am willing to accept that you might be well versed in a couple of arts at age 32, and that you may have taught some self defence to your air force mates but do you recognise the quote below?



> 7. Ive taught guys with between 2-25 years in the following arts and they were amazed at my skill and happy to learn what I had to offer them -Krav maga, Muay thai, Kenpo, Aikido, wing chun, bagua, tai chi, xingyi, Liu he ba fa, boxing, wrestling, shorin ryu, TKD, and American Kickboxing, and shootfighting/jj off the top of my head.
> 
> 8. I freely admit I lack the skill to teach ALL ranges of fighting, particulary groundfighting, I have some basic skills I have learned to save my own butt, however I suggest students seek qualified instruction elsewhere in that area.



Or this ..



> "Are you ready to learn one of the most fluid, dynamic and powerful self-defense systems in existence? For the last few centuries these methods have all been hidden in forms, cryptic Chinese terms and only understood by a handful of people throughout the world.
> These arts have been streamlined to offer a more focused combative based curriculum oriented to the needs of 21st century street realties. Flowing Combat is taught in a way that is conducive to western understanding using the latest advances in training methodologies."



And this ....



> * Flowing Combat *is a system derived, by Gary Romel, from methods of the internal Chinese arts.
> 
> Focussing on techniques and applications, rather than forms or kata, Flowing Combat teaches mainly Tajiquan principles and applications, but also includes some principles and techniques taught in Baguazhang and Xingyiquan. Flowing Combat uses an approach intended to teach self defence applications quickly, and avoids much of the terminology used in traditional methods of teaching Chinese martial arts.


 Pity I couldn't get onto the website.  I'm sure it contains some interesting material.        I would say that prima facie these claims are pretty much suggesting that you are one of a handful of people I'm the world capable of understanding, let alone teach, such a dynamic and powerful system. And, at the time of making the claim you were, what ... 24?

Besides that you said; Well, you can "promise" all you like, certitude does not equate to truth, knowledge or experience. *I* *am sorry if you are in a different "solar system" than Masaji, but I am not. 

*That to me says you are claiming to have similar knowledge of Goju Ryu karate as Masaji Taira Sensai and it is not even an area you have even claimed to have knowledge of.  If Taira Sensei is acknowledged by his peers as the best in the world and you are claiming to be up with him, you must indeed be a phenomenal martial artist.      :asian:


----------



## GaryR

Sorry for the delay in response, I've been busy.



K-man said:


> Gary, you are claiming to be the equal of a man  acclaimed by his peers as the best in the world?  That is abject  nonsense and saying that is not defamatory as you legal background will  attest.



Putting aside for a moment what I may or may not  be saying --- I don't see how that has anything to do with defamation?   the defamation was reffering you asserting I claimed to an expert in all  styles, when in fact, I never have. Your below quotes do not reflect  any claim of such. 




K-man said:


> As in Bullshido and  the other forums you have posted on, whenever your credentials are  questioned you revert to this silly nonsense of defamation and  anonimity.  If anyone has three fifths of five eighths of bu@&$r all  of a brain they can easily identify me from my previous posts so don't  lay that on me please.



Wow, you will have to remind me  when I last posted on bullshido, I don't think there has been a thread  on me in a decade, and then a BULLSHIDO member visited me, touched hands  with me, and said I was cool, thereafter i think any conflict was put  to bed there.

I dislike 1) people hiding behind anonymity (I  asked who you were, you wouldn't answer - if it's so easily discoverable  man up and at least tell me your first name, I shouldn't have to  dig..  and 2) posters making about the people rather than the methods or discussions themselves.  

I don't care about my "credentials" being threatened, I  do what I do, you either like it, or you don't. asserting false  statements against ME (such as I've claimed to be an expert in all  styles)--that is defamation, and it does bother me, as it should  anyone.  If someone thinks that I suck in their opinion, or one of my  methods is inadequate, etc, fine, just don't put out outright lies.



K-man said:


> I am willing to accept that you might be well  versed in a couple of arts at age 32, and that you may have taught some  self defence to your air force mates but do you recognise the quote  below?



Sure, I am well versed at my age in several arts, my birthday is in march feel free to send a card. And yes I  have taught my Air Force mates, along with numerous other military and  civilian personnel at Tinker AFB in OKC, (and at other locations).  I  was formally contracted to do so.  I'm not sure how the quotes below are  relevant to that fact, but i'm sure you meant them in connection with another paragraph...

Yes  the quotes you listed are copy from my website:  the "are you ready to learn" paragraph  is part made into "marketing copy", there is literally probably more  than a handful of course that can use IMA for real world self defense  (nobody can literally hold anyone in their hand), many on rumsoaked fist  for example.  I know several people who could provide the same  corrections to your teachers teacher, maybe even more corrections than  myself.  The first quote re training different people of different arts  is also a *fact*, what is problem there? There is no assertion or statement, nor has there ever have been there that I  am an expert in all styles. 





K-man said:


> Pity I couldn't get onto the website.  I'm sure it  contains some interesting material.        I would say that prima facie  these claims are pretty much suggesting that you are one of a handful  of people I'm the world capable of understanding, let alone teach, such a  dynamic and powerful system. And, at the time of making the claim you  were, what ... 24?



See above on the "handful of people"  -plus, note the people who can  apply Tai Chi etc. in combat is slim in comparison the # of  practitioners.    I could have been 24, I don't remember, being young  does not equal a lack of skill.  I have a few (I think related) natural  abilities to both absorb and perform things, especially involving  coordination etc. For example; I was playing the piano by ear around the  time I could talk, and playing in jazz bands/competitions  with drummers years ahead of my most.  So, yeah, it was  probably around 24, maybe earlier. People have different skills in different areas, and different types of intellect. 

So long as I'm providing  extra info; The first website (pressurepointfighting.com) --(hence why  I'm in this thread)-- was done by a Karate instructor (ironically I think he was one of the Goju instructors) --who wanted to  trade it for private lessons.  My later site (flowingcombat) was done via a deal  with a Russian friend who lives in canada for DVDs, etc.  He went a bit  overboard with the style  (its LOUD and RED), but it's functional and  the online lesson templates are a cool feature.  

 I haven't updated the  site in nearly a decade, but just put it back up since I'm teaching  again and done with school.  I did'nt provide a link because 1) I'm not  here to market, but to share info, and 2) Before it gets traffic - I  wanted to re-do the copy,  my free online lesson,  and re-do the  instructional DVD's before selling- my material and approach has of course changed  over the years...  It's not relevant to this discussion, but the new  site is not a .com anymore, its www.flowingcombat.net, and is up for your viewing pleasure.  You might get a  kick out of the rest of the home page copy, and the lot, although you quoted much of  it already.  The video demo's are a bit cheezy as well in retrospect, we can have a good laugh at them together. 





K-man said:


> Besides that you said; Well, you can "promise" all you like, certitude does not equate to truth, knowledge or experience. *I* *am sorry if you are in a different "solar system" than Masaji, but I am not.
> 
> *That to me says you are claiming to have similar  knowledge of Goju Ryu karate as Masaji Taira Sensai and it is not even  an area you have even claimed to have knowledge of.



The  body only moves in so many directions, only produces power well in so  many ways,etc., plus there are rules and limts to both mechanics and  physics.  My only exposureto Goju Ryu has only been through private  students who were GOJU instructors (both much older than I). They first  had too teach me their methods before I could tweak,  by demonstrating  WHAT could be improved, WHY it needed to be improved, and of course HOW  to make it better is taught along with testing After awhile most give up  trying to change / compare and just stick to the IMA, this is of course  relevant to the quality of their prior training.   I will not and have  not claimed to speciically have a knowledge base or training in Goju Ryu  beyond the above instances, and I don't remember any of it.  


Like  I said, and it was a great compliment - Masaji obviously has the skill  and quality training to be in the same "solar system", I couldn't say  the same about any others in the video's depicted barring any additional  in person, video demonstration, photo's or at the very least detailed  explaination. I also have no clue ( beyond what's in your posts on this  thread) how your teacher (and you) perform relative to Masaji.  It is *you *whom  is not choosing to not provide information, identify yourself outright, or provide  substantive response to my points raised about the Goju application /  karate application of Dim-mak. 




K-man said:


> If Taira Sensei is  acknowledged by his peers as the best in the world and you are claiming  to be up with him, you must indeed be a phenomenal martial artist.      :asian:



That's  great for Taira, he is indeed skilled.  I have been described as  phenomenal by many people (a few of whom I would consider more  skilled, and/or at least as skilled as Taira and/or myself).  That is of course a subjective opinion, but I have  also been told that by people likely above your experience and skill  level the same..but like I said, I haven't seen footage of you, so I'm  guessing based on the others in the room in the video clips I critiqued.  

I would rather discuss ideas, methods, and not make it about the people specifically--Now perhaps we should get back to the topic? Do you have any  specific Goju method to get at pressure points - or can you demonstrate  how they are built in and trained?  That would make for great fodder,  and likely productive, at least for someone even if we ultimately agree  to disagree.

Best,

Gary


----------



## rickster

brmoore134 said:


> what are forms of martial arts based on the attacking of pressure points?



all


----------



## K-man

GaryR said:


> The  body only moves in so many directions, only produces power well in so  many ways,etc., plus there are rules and limts to both mechanics and  physics.  My only exposureto Goju Ryu has only been through private  students who were GOJU instructors (both much older than I). They first  had too teach me their methods before I could tweak,  by demonstrating  WHAT could be improved, WHY it needed to be improved, and of course HOW  to make it better is taught along with testing After awhile most give up  trying to change / compare and just stick to the IMA, this is of course  relevant to the quality of their prior training.   I will not and have  not claimed to speciically have a knowledge base or training in Goju Ryu  beyond the above instances, and I don't remember any of it.
> 
> Like  I said, and it was a great compliment - Masaji obviously has the skill  and quality training to be in the same "solar system", I couldn't say  the same about any others in the video's depicted barring any additional  in person, video demonstration, photo's or at the very least detailed  explaination. I also have no clue ( beyond what's in your posts on this  thread) how your teacher (and you) perform relative to Masaji.  It is *you *whom  is not choosing to not provide information, identify yourself outright, or provide  substantive response to my points raised about the Goju application /  karate application of Dim-mak.
> 
> That's  great for Taira, he is indeed skilled.  I have been described as  phenomenal by many people (a few of whom I would consider more  skilled, and/or at least as skilled as Taira and/or myself).  That is of course a subjective opinion, but I have  also been told that by people likely above your experience and skill  level the same..but like I said, I haven't seen footage of you, so I'm  guessing based on the others in the room in the video clips I critiqued.
> 
> I would rather discuss ideas, methods, and not make it about the people specifically--Now perhaps we should get back to the topic? Do you have any  specific Goju method to get at pressure points - or can you demonstrate  how they are built in and trained?  That would make for great fodder,  and likely productive, at least for someone even if we ultimately agree  to disagree.


The basic tools of karate are common to all.  Most are strikes and kicks. Emphasis depends on whether it is the original Okinawan karate or the modified Japanese form. As you only said Goju I have no idea where to begin discussion. As to them teaching their 'methods', again, what does that mean? Now, by your own admission, you say you don't claim to have a knowledge base or training in Goju Ryu and in your own system you don't teach forms.  Then you talk about people as skilled as "Taira and/or myself".  Then you have been told by people above my skill level that you are sensational. :barf:


So, I'll let you into a little secret. I normally don't claim to have greater knowledge or ability than others who have been around for a while, especially some of the guys here on MT. But, from what I have seen and what I have read, I have this strange idea that in the area of Goju Ryu and the Goju kata and bunkai you wouldn't even be carrying the drinks in the circle of people I train with.  While you continue to tell us all how good you are and how you are equal to the best in the world, even in an area that you admit to having limited knowledge,  I doubt we can have any form of reasonable discussion.  For example, there is no Dim Mak in karate. Pedantic I know, but in karate it is _kyusho._       :asian:


----------



## Cyriacus

GaryR said:


> I dislike 1) people hiding behind anonymity (I  asked who you were, you wouldn't answer - if it's so easily discoverable  man up and at least tell me your first name, I shouldn't have to  dig..



Just one thing.
This is not Facebook, Good Sir 

*Swiftly leaves the conversation.


----------



## rickster

Pressure Point Effectiveness = Individual Threshold of Pain


----------



## GaryR

Since you did'nt indicate I'm assuming is a response in part to this  question I asked--"Do you have any  specific Goju method to get at pressure points - or can  you demonstrate  how they are built in and trained?  That would make  for great fodder,  and likely productive, at least for someone even if  we ultimately agree  to disagree."



K-man said:


> The basic tools of karate are common to all.  Most are strikes and kicks. Emphasis depends on whether it is the original Okinawan karate or the modified Japanese form.



Thank you for the news flash oh wise one:   




K-man said:


> ...As you only said Goju I have no idea where to begin discussion. As to them teaching their 'methods', again, what does that mean?



How about you start with the obvious-begin discussion with what *you *do relating to pressure points (the topic of the thread), the context in which you choose to share that information is up to you.  "Methods" could mean specific applications, movement drills, two person drills, forms, katas, etc. 







K-man said:


> Now, by your own admission, you say you don't claim to have a knowledge base or training in Goju Ryu and in your own system you don't teach forms.



Perhaps your reading comprehension is low , but I already addressed this point -----"The  body only moves in so many directions, only produces power well in  so  many ways,etc., plus there are rules and limits to both mechanics and   physics.  My only exposure to Goju Ryu has only been through private   students who were GOJU instructors (both much older than I). They first   had too teach me their methods before I could tweak,  by demonstrating   WHAT could be improved, WHY it needed to be improved, and of course HOW   to make it better is taught along with testing ..."

Technically I have had private training in Goju Ryu from several sources, I don't remember of it, because I don't care too.  





K-man said:


> Then you talk about people as skilled as "Taira and/or myself".



Well, that is a vague reference without context, here is what I said...


"That's  great for Taira, he is indeed skilled.  I have been described as   phenomenal by many people (a few of whom I would consider more   skilled, and/or at least as skilled as Taira and/or myself).  That is of  course a subjective opinion, but I have  also been told that by people  likely above your experience and skill  level the same..but like I said,  I haven't seen footage of you, so I'm  guessing based on the others in  the room in the video clips I critiqued."

It's ironic you talk about skill and good information, you have admitted that my teachers information is good, and you don't even own the VERY BEST books (the encyclopedias IMO) - which are currently sitting on my desk with a picture of Erle and I in it, (may he RIP). Who knows what vid's you have, and if there are better ones?



K-man said:


> I have a number of Erle's Dim-Mak books, although not this one, and they  are very good. The greatest value from a karate perspective is that you  can determine the points that are being targeted in the kata and the  kata gives you the sequence.
> 
> I also have some of Erle's video and, once again, I think it is really good information."



Well, then at the very least if you met over a decade ago you would very likely have thought I had good information as well.  Below is a quote from 13 years or so ago (on my website), I took some of my students to Erles NJ seminar. The quoted student  had 5 yrs in Matsubayashi-ryu before starting with me, (he was one of my first students, and verd dedicated and talented.) But there was some training to "undo".  I'm come ALONG way in 13 yrs, and with the help of several people.  So yes, I'll talk about "skilled people" whom I can reasonably judge in coorelation with myself, others, and an objective standard, from which we can discuss the methods, which you still refuse to do. 

" ... ... I attended Master Erle Montaigue's NJ  seminar earlier this year with Gary and other astute martial artists.  As I watched I noticed Gary learned if not mastered the techniques  almost instantaneously. While practicing with Gary and others it was  "painfully" obvious Gary has mastered the ability to efficiently use his  body. I was amazed at the attending talent but only Erle impressed me  more for speed and potency. As good as Gary is, he admits he is just a  beginner in the internal arts.

_Submitted by Major DeWayne Nikkila- USAF"_ (_Dewayne is now a Lt. Colonel)_ http://www.flowingcombat.net/testimonials.php


I can talk about skill all day long, I even provide SPECIFIC examples, I offered to exchange improvements / ideas with you via video, but even that didn't get you on any real topic-instead you decided to be an ***.  See above brief explanation on the human body / motion, not to mention historical connections. 



K-man said:


> IThen you have been told by people above my skill level that you are sensational. :barf:



Throw up all your want, but judging from the students in that room, I likely wouldn't have to put my coffee down to deal with you, and maybe even your teacher.  Taira a different story, but I could very likely tweak / teach him enough to have him by me a beer, and perhaps vice verse, but I don't know, I've only seen probably 40 min of his cooperative training/technique/Kata.  Id be glad to not only explicate, but demonstrate too anyone friendly and willing to listen, try, and test, and engage in mutually beneficial constructive feedback. . I would also be happy to give people the LA tour (After Aug time provided).  I have friends in Ozz, so I may be there some day again as well.   :s33:


The full paragraph for context: 

"That's  great for Taira, he is indeed skilled.  I have been described as   phenomenal by many people (a few of whom I would consider more   skilled, and/or at least as skilled as Taira and/or myself).  That is of  course a subjective opinion, but I have  also been told that by people  likely above your experience and skill  level the same..but like I said,  I haven't seen footage of you, so I'm  guessing based on the others in  the room in the video clips I critiqued."

The  body only moves in so many directions, only produces power well in  so  many ways,etc., plus there are rules and limits to both mechanics and   physics.


You are incorrect, I have taught forms, and still teach forms in a way, but most very "short" forms-more like motion drills, and randomized sequences. But like I said before, movement is movement, skill is skill regardless. Heck I'd bet on a 2 year MMA student over a karate or kung fu black belt any day of the week on national average. I don't need a knowledge base at the moment re Goju to "talk about people as skilled as ""Taira and/or..anyone for that matter. 




K-man said:


> ISo, I'll let you into a little secret. I normally don't claim to have greater knowledge or ability than others who have been around for a while, especially some of the guys here on MT.



Thanks, for telling me  your secret wisdom / strategy .  :s441: I have said for years "always assume your opponent is greater than yourself".  But when on a forum where you are presumably comrades, all at different levels with different skill sets, and not opponents. It should be about discussing a specific, skill, topic, technique,all movement can be broken down, even to the molecular level. Also, relating to your quote - your relative knowledge the audience / participants here at MT a not a concern of mine. 



K-man said:


> IBut, from what I have seen and what I have read, I have this strange idea that in the area of Goju Ryu and the Goju kata and bunkai you wouldn't even be carrying the drinks in the circle of people I train with.




It depends on what you mean by "in the area of Goju Ryu and the ... you wouldn't even be carrying the drinks in the circle of people of I train with" - If this means I couldn't show you a single Goju Kata or method, you would be correct.  
:BSmeter:
HOWEVER, I guarantee you I could reasonably replicate AND improve & tweak some and many goju methods. You would be incorrect to assert otherwise as I have done so in the past with similar material, and I can provide specific example of how and why the material could be improved --at least that I have seen of your teachers teacher.   As I said before I will both demonstrate and explicate.

  I'm willing to bet regarding most of your circle-I' could walk through them like a "ghost with a sledgehammer", :whip:. In person, this conversation would have been over a long time ago, after a friendly lesson, now you are just wasting my time...

Moreover, Taira, if a nice man, would likely be buying me a drink after a training session. But I also, I might be buying him a drink for some judo training swappage- if he and I (or someone similar to his skill level in Judo) were to meet. 




K-man said:


> While you continue to tell us all how good you are and how you are equal to the best in the world, even in an area that you admit to having limited knowledge,  I doubt we can have any form of reasonable discussion.



I never said my Goju knowledge was even currently present, or equal to the goju instructors who are best in the world, however, see above arguments re body mechanics, movement skills.  When it comes to combatives, if you think Taira is among the best in the world, then yes, I would agree, I am among them, I don't like to self-aggrandize, but you have seemingly made this thread about me.Like I said, In person a guy like you is silenced fairly quickly, you think you found the holy grail in the martial arts in your karate system, and 1+yrs in you think that you and the teacher are the best thing since sliced bread, I was young once, and new to different arts , I've been there.   If your smart, you'll grow out of it, and be capable of productive discussion...

It is you who continues to incapable of reasonable discussion, I made specific critiques, offered to switch footage, offered to have you pick/perform & video a few methods of yourself for me to demonstrate with, etc.  I think it unreasonable to be unwilling to do the above, you seem like a keyboard warrior hiding behind a screen-name (I'm not going to dig for your identity).  



K-man said:


> For example, there is no Dim Mak in karate. Pedantic I know, but in karate it is _kyusho._       :asian:



Gee, again :s441:bravo on sharing new information with me .  Did you know Ni Hao basically means konnichiwa? 


Instead of pedantics /providing me with translations, you could contribute something of substance and get back on topic so I can do the same.

 In short buzz off, or alternatively be helpful and productive in discussion and demonstration mate, as I said, your wasting my time. :whip::s31:

Best,

G


----------



## K-man

Sorry Gary, I'm not discussing anything further with you at this time.     :asian:


----------



## The Last Legionary

Using Bullshido as credibility. Now that's funny.   No, don't get up. I thought I smelled crap, had to look, and sure enough, there it was.  You all get back to the chest banging. Just be careful you don't dim mak yourself to death. :roflmao:


----------



## GaryR

The Last Legionary said:


> Using Bullshido as credibility. Now that's funny.   No, don't get up. I thought I smelled crap, had to look, and sure enough, there it was.  You all get back to the chest banging. Just be careful you don't dim mak yourself to death. :roflmao:



I didn't bring up bullshido initially, it was used in a negative context to belittle me, which I corrected.  No, *you *don't get up, what you smell is your own crap,which you are sitting in, now hit play on the on WWE DVR or something and leave the real discussion to the adults.  You can LOL @ dim-mak, I understand, one should be able to fight without it, it's not my soapbox, I was here to provide a good reference book link and some insight if needed...

G


----------



## The Last Legionary

No Gary, I'm LOLing at you, but that's ok. You believe your own PR.  What I smell is your usual BS, but hey, I know who you are, you don't know who I am. Ain't it great?  Go back to strutting and preening and letting everyone know how great you are. Some might actually care.  Me, nah.  Why would I care about a nobody with delusions of adequacy like you? :roflmao:

View attachment $lots_of_mooning-2185.gif

Just don't step in the BullView attachment $dancing-poop.gifShido.  

Heh. Citing BSdo. Why not cite Highlights for Kids too?  They hold the same level of respect here. :lol: Actually, that's not true. Highlights actually is useful, unlike poopoo land.

As to Dim Mac, try a Big Mac. It'll give you a heart o tack, jack!  %-}

As to your being worth listening to? You're how old kid? Did I read that right? Only 32?  Shhit, I've got scars older than that. A little Google Fu, and wow. Just wow. Not much on you, and what there is. Wow. I'm wasting my time here.  Some things just can not be mocked more. 

Please excuse me, I have to go read some serious epic comedy about GaryR on MAP, Cyberkwoon and of course, the cite he gets his credibility from, PooPooLand!:mrtoilet:

:shrug:

Naw.  I'd rather belly stick myself than waste more time with this maroon. His ego's so big, mine seems small and insignificant next to it's hugeness.

:eye-popping:

:s432:


----------



## GaryR

The Last Legionary said:


> No Gary, I'm LOLing at you, but that's ok. You believe your own PR.  What I smell is your usual BS, but hey, I know who you are, you don't know who I am. Ain't it great? Naw.  I'd rather belly stick myself than waste  more time with this maroon. His ego's so big, mine seems small and  insignificant next to it's hugeness.
> 
> :eye-popping:
> 
> :s432:



It wasn't me who posted my old site/pr language. But that was an unnecessary side track-I was here merely dropping a book link and discussing general principles.

Great. don't waste our time.....yet you keep typing?




The Last Legionary said:


> Go back to strutting and preening and letting everyone know how great you are. Some might actually care.  Me, nah.  Why would I care about a nobody with delusions of adequacy like you? :roflmao:
> 
> View attachment 16826



I'd like to think many people are adequate. I've saved my own skin, as have of those whom I have taught, so no delusions there, its not the fake TV wrestling.   
 



The Last Legionary said:


> Just don't step in the BullView attachment 16827Shido.
> 
> Heh. Citing BSdo. Why not cite Highlights for Kids too?  They hold the same level of respect here. :lol: Actually, that's not true. Highlights actually is useful, unlike poopoo land.



Maybe your reading comprehension is low or your memory short, AGAIN-I didn't bring up bullshido, I only corrected a negative implication made. Respect? Do you enjoy mocking other forums / pracitioners...does it make you feel better about yourself?? :waah:
 



The Last Legionary said:


> As to Dim Mac, try a Big Mac. It'll give you a heart o tack, jack!  %-}Naw.  I'd rather belly stick myself than waste  more time with this maroon. His ego's so big, mine seems small and  insignificant next to it's hugeness.
> 
> :eye-popping:
> 
> :s432:



Big mac? You are clever, my point stands one should not rely on dim-mak.  I'm actually not a jerk / egotist in person. But You have been at least to the extent of your contribution thus far . 
 



The Last Legionary said:


> As to your being worth listening to? You're how old kid? Did I read that right? Only 32?  Shhit, I've got scars older than that. A little Google Fu, and wow. Just wow. Not much on you, and what there is. Wow. I'm wasting my time here.  Some things just can not be mocked more.



Is this You? It says "this is me" in your profile--http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hgy-EEyGbY . How long ago was that? Amusing. Don't waste your time on little 32 year old me, I'm not worth your time, your mind is made up based on a thread & poor and outdated information. Plus you probably have little reason to care, do you even practice anymore?, what MA's did/do you practice?  It's easier to mock than to do, which is why this banter is a waste regardless.  At this point you are just a troll not worth my time, grow up and get something else to do besides defaming me on an internet forum for the fun of it.






The Last Legionary said:


> Please excuse me, I have to go read some serious epic comedy about GaryR on MAP, Cyberkwoon and of course, the cite he gets his credibility from, PooPooLand!:mrtoilet:
> 
> :shrug:



Amazing you keep saying I'm a waste of your time, yet you want to read decade old threads? I think you need more hobbies. 



The Last Legionary said:


> Naw.  I'd rather belly stick myself than waste more time with this maroon. His ego's so big, mine seems small and insignificant next to it's hugeness.
> 
> :eye-popping:
> 
> :s432:



So while your reading all those old forums you'll be belly sticking yourself?  At least be consistent in your mockery for god sake.  This thread was not about my ego, nor my material, website, etc, it was about sharing info, I am confident based only to the extent of my experience.

 I don't know the status of your ego (or skill) relative to mine, but your ego size could be whats giving you the need to interject into this thread to "call me out" with B.S. in a non-substantive way.  Flashing and mooning emoticons and all.  You may be older than I, but your certainly not acting like it, grow up and provide somethings substantive, or butt out and let people talk on topic without your unnecessary libel.

I think you should take your own advice, and not waste your time with me, I certainly don't want to waste time on you, regardless of who you are, or how good you are (and at what), a troll is still a troll...Here is a "secret"-Find something productive or fun to do instead of bother others.

G:feedtroll


Back to topic?????


----------



## Cyriacus

Oh the senseless arguements this Site generates.
You know, its part of the reason I hang around 



GaryR said:


> I didn't bring up bullshido initially, it was used  in a negative context to belittle me, which I corrected.  No, *you *don't  get up, what you smell is your own crap,which you are sitting in, now  hit play on the on WWE DVR or something and leave the real discussion to  the adults.  You can LOL @ dim-mak, I understand, one should be able to  fight without it, it's not my soapbox, I was here to provide a good  reference book link and some insight if needed...
> 
> G



Incidentally, in one WWE bout I watched, someone did a Jab > Straight > Front Kick.
Amazing, that not all of it is flash, and that Sleeper Holds are actually Rear Naked Chokes.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Oh, Gary, Gary, Quite Contrary, Such a shame you're so damn airy. :rofl:

Nothing I've said is libel. Nor Slander. Nor Roast Beef.  Though I am allowed to state my opinion, which is that you are an ***. :whip:
Yes mam, an ***.  Butt that's ok. Not everyone can be as pretty as me.  Now take your made up little "martial art", go poke yourself, and make your mama a boloney sandwich. Tuck her into bed, then go sit down and hush, because I'd like to turn this thread back over to the grown ups who have actual training in real arts. Not pokey pokey look mom I can poke my eye and it hurts stuff.

Good kid. Shhhh.  Shhhh.  

:fart:

See kid, you're the jerk off who came in with the attitude, the ego, the BS. The one trying to dictate terms, tell people to go away, and all that bs. Sorry kid, I don't see you wearing a mod badge, and you ain't been here long enough to earn anyone's respect.  :anic: To me, and I'm sure others, you look like just another internet know it all blow hard, which I'm sure you can do, blow hard. So why don't you have a nice glass of STFU yourself, with a side of humility, and a side of earn your stripes, and maybe, just maybe, you'll be here past Fathers Day.:viking1:

Cuz, Cuz, otherwise, you're gonna get trampled by some Horsemen and unlike me, that just ain't never pretty.  Now you'll excuse me, I gotta go touch my self. Whoooo!

:flair2:

Now you go back to banging your chest and saying how you know everything :s496: and how all these other people who have been doing real martial arts longer are soooo stupid because that seems to be your purpose. If it makes you happy, hey, who am I to deny a kid his happyness?

:s24::s24:

:s414:


----------



## Cyriacus

rickster said:


> From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls, I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.
> 
> Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.
> 
> Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair



Ive seen it. Just not the way Youre thinking.
But thats not why I came back to this early page. I was trying to see how the other conversation started.

Now...

Ive seen alot of arguements on here, but...



GaryR said:


> Kata is merely a* component *of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component
> 
> That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I   believe it is totally wrong.  I repeat what I said above "In a real   engagement it (kata) will work extremely well *if you have been taught to use it that way*."
> you obviously have not been taught to use it that way. You are right when you say it is poorly used.
> 
> First  question; Have you ever used your  kata in a real situation?  If so how  many moves/sequence? How did it  resemble or not resemble your perfect  ideal form/application?



I can see why KMan thought You didnt know what You were talking about, and You may well not.*
Lets say, Your system has Primary Block A, and Primary Strike A. There is a good chance is Kata will have a 2 move sequence in which Primary Block A is followed by Primary Strike A. This is significant of some, if not many Systems Kata being used as storage devices, to contain all that sort of stuff. Its like a book, only made of movement.





 (Skip to 1:20, optimally.)





The fruits of a quick google.

*Thats not what Im putting up. Plenty of other people can do that for Me 
Im just addressing how this whole thing started, so that it can be read in context, rather than in the descended sloshy mush it largely is now, in which everyone is contradicting each other.


----------



## MJS

Folks,

We've already had a few posts reported in this thread.  Lets keep things civil please.


----------



## K-man

Cyriacus said:


> Lets say, Your system has Primary Block A, and Primary Strike A. There is a good chance is Kata will have a 2 move sequence in which Primary Block A is followed by Primary Strike A. This is significant of some, if not many Systems Kata being used as storage devices, to contain all that sort of stuff. Its like a book, only made of movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Skip to 1:20, optimally.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fruits of a quick google.


Thank you for the clips.  What Iain wrote under the second clip pretty much sums up my thoughts.


> As I'm sure you know, the angle in the kata tells us the angle we need to be at in relationship to the enemy. The ninety degree angle at the start of the kata therefore tells us to shift to the side of the enemy (away from his free hand) and then to apply the kata.
> Because of the chaotic nature of conflict, the kata does not know where our feet will be prior to the application of the movement; it therefore simply records the angle we need to be at and not the unknowable specifics of how to get there. I mention that because it's a point that sometimes confuses people new to bunkai, or who still have the view that a sideway move means the enemy is to the side (as opposed to the karateka moving to their side).
> One thing to note is that great care needs to be taken on the neck crank and your partner's safety must be your key priority at all times. On a technical level you should note how *no part of the kata motion is left unused*: the "prime for the block" is used, the hands on the hip are used, the stance facilities the correct shift in bodyweight, and so on. The standard "block and punch application", however, leaves many parts of the motion redundant and has many tactical flaws. I would therefore suggest that what is presented here is a much better way of looking at the movement. However, as always, it's up to you to have a look and make up your own mind. Enjoy


 I took the liberty of emphasising part of his quote.  "No part of the kata is left unused".

As this thread was about pressure points, Iain's first move to inside the elbow picks up a 'pressure' point, his strike to the neck probabably strikes another two or three, his elbow strike to the side of the head another and the final downward elbow still another.   So that small sequence of kata involved at leat five vital points. Now, Iain did not mention vital points at all. He didn't have to. The beauty of the kata is that if it is performed correctly and the application is applied correctly, you will use those points without even knowing it.    :asian:


----------



## GaryR

So are you or are you not Roddy Piper??? Can you man up enough to even share your real name? Your insulting posts are outrageous and childish. I guess smack talk is how you made your living, lol.  Just changing venues??



The Last Legionary said:


> Oh, Gary, Gary, Quite Contrary, Such a shame you're so damn airy. :rofl:
> 
> Nothing I've said is libel. Nor Slander. Nor Roast Beef.  Though I am allowed to state my opinion, which is that you are an ***. :whip:


 

Nice rhyme, elementary school level, impressive.  FYI - A statement of opinion can STILL BE actionable as defamation under certain conditions (as I learned in Law School), (state law may vary-this is not legal advice). You can call me an *** all day, it was *you* who trolled this thread.  




The Last Legionary said:


> Yes mam, an ***.  Butt that's ok. Not everyone can be as pretty as me.  Now take your made up little "martial art", go poke yourself, and make your mama a boloney sandwich. Tuck her into bed, then go sit down and hush, because I'd like to turn this thread back over to the grown ups who have actual training in real arts. Not pokey pokey look mom I can poke my eye and it hurts stuff.



I'm glad your proud of your looks and your "mama" jokes, quite mature.  "Turn this thread back over to the grown ups"??? WTF, you are the one who trolled this thread with defamation and B.S. insults.  I am the one trying to have specific, on topic discussion, and even exchange methods via video.  I hope your not an example of the signal to noise ratio here. 
 



The Last Legionary said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> See kid, you're the jerk off who came in with the attitude, the ego, the BS.



No, I came in this thread to provide information - first a link to a useful book.  I am trying to make the discussion about information not people or ego, it is you who have contributed to the opposite.



The Last Legionary said:


> ..he one trying to dictate terms, tell people to go away, and all that bs. Sorry kid, I don't see you wearing a mod badge, and you ain't been here long enough to earn anyone's respect.  :anic:



I wasn't trying to dictate terms, just establish a mutual understanding of the definition of our relative actions.  Telling people to please get on topic is not out of line, K-man instigated, but has gracefully ceased, and gotten back to productive discussion, which has good info I believe from my scan....  Earn respect? You mean by dropping in on threads and insulting people with B.S and insulting emoticons? B.S.
 




The Last Legionary said:


> To me, and I'm sure others, you look like just another internet know it all blow hard, which I'm sure you can do, blow hard. So why don't you have a nice glass of STFU yourself, with a side of humility, and a side of earn your stripes, and maybe, just maybe, you'll be here past Fathers Day.:viking1:



That's nice, I've never claimed to know it all. Another personal attack, wow, your the "kid" .  

I probably signed up for this site before you did, I just started a new account because It's been so long. Its absdure you think your 1000 or so post count somehow gives you the right to be a lying A@@ and troll a thread in which people are trying to have productive conversation-->It is you who should STFU. 

"Earn your stripes"-->I've already earned my-stripes-"literally", plus, I've been in two wars.In the figurative sense--I've put enough years in and have enough skill to not be treated like some strip-less newb that has to be hazed.  Not-withstanding the above, new member here shouldn't be subjected to B.S like yours because they are new.  I have tried to provide substance over noise, it's getting more difficult with jackass's like yourself. 
 



The Last Legionary said:


> Cuz, Cuz, otherwise, you're gonna get trampled by some Horsemen and unlike me, that just ain't never pretty.  Now you'll excuse me, I gotta go touch my self. Whoooo!



"Trampled by horseman?" What kind of threat is that?  And yet another reference to how "pretty" you are? Your ego is monstrous. 




The Last Legionary said:


> Now you go back to banging your chest and saying how you know everything :s496: and how all these other people who have been doing real martial arts longer are soooo stupid because that seems to be your purpose. If it makes you happy, hey, who am I to deny a kid his happyness?



I can get back to hopefully discussing the topic of this thread should I have time, that is my purpose.  It seems to make you happy to be a useless jack-*** **** online. If you are Roddy - like I said before, get back to pretend fighting - It was after all your career for a long time. I don't care who you are,what your past/skill is, or what you THINK you know about real combat/fighting comparatively to the world. Your a useless a## to me, and you can go **** yourself. Now buzz off--:whip:. ,quit wasting my time...and distracting from real discussion. 

G


 


[/QUOTE]


----------



## GaryR

MJS said:


> Folks,
> 
> We've already had a few posts reported in this thread.  Lets keep things civil please.



Agreed.


----------



## GaryR

--"Lets say, Your system has Primary Block A, and Primary Strike A. There  is a good chance is Kata will have a 2 move sequence in which Primary  Block A is followed by Primary Strike A. This is significant of some, if  not many Systems Kata being used as storage devices, to contain all  that sort of stuff. Its like a book, only made of movement.





 (Skip to 1:20, optimally.)





The fruits of a quick google." *--Cyriacus*



K-man said:


> Thank you for the clips.  What Iain wrote under the second clip pretty much sums up my thoughts.
> I took the liberty of emphasising part of his quote.  "No part of the kata is left unused".
> 
> "As this thread was about pressure points, Iain's first move to inside the elbow picks up a 'pressure' point, his strike to the neck probabably strikes another two or three, his elbow strike to the side of the head another and the final downward elbow still another.   So that small sequence of kata involved at leat five vital points. Now, Iain did not mention vital points at all. He didn't have to. The beauty of the kata is that if it is performed correctly and the application is applied correctly, you will use those points without even knowing it.    :asian:


 *Cyriacus*

The first clip...Yeesh...  I DO like the second clip --mostly, I've been teaching a similar technique for a LONG time, there are better ways of executing the method --sequence depicted in the clip: I would first strike at the same time as I grab (or intercept) the wrist/arm, I also wouldn't rely on any wrist grab, or continued wrist grab of the lapel here.  The technique can be done, more fluidly, efficiently, with more power, and without depending on catching the wrist, or pinning it to your chest.  If you want to talk and demo specifics, I am game.  

[/QUOTE]You have a great point about the point and small kata sequence that is being used, very cool.  And as I have said before, Ideally your kata SHOULD represent your most likely response/attack, change, complete methods / principles / applications, but in the choas of the moment getting at 5 vital points in a row using your kata in sequence is not something I would count on. Possible, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.  



K-man said:


> As I'm sure you know, the angle in the kata tells us the angle we need  to be at in relationship to the enemy. The ninety degree angle at the  start of the kata therefore tells us to shift to the side of the enemy  (away from his free hand) and then to apply the kata. Because of the chaotic nature of conflict, the kata does not know where  our feet will be prior to the application of the movement; it therefore  simply records the angle we need to be at and not the unknowable  specifics of how to get there. I mention that because it's a point that  sometimes confuses people new to bunkai, or who still have the view that  a sideway move means the enemy is to the side (as opposed to the  karateka moving to their side).



I understand what your saying here, and I believe we are on the same page here.  WE likely agree on more than we initially thought.  :bangahead:



K-man said:


> One thing to note is that great care needs to be taken on the neck crank  and your partner's safety must be your key priority at all times. On a  technical level you should note how *no part of the kata motion is left unused*:  the "prime for the block" is used, the hands on the hip are used, the  stance facilities the correct shift in bodyweight, and so on. The  standard "block and punch application", however, leaves many parts of  the motion redundant and has many tactical flaws. I would therefore  suggest that what is presented here is a much better way of looking at  the movement. However, as always, it's up to you to have a look and make  up your own mind. Enjoy"



Great insight, no part of a motion / kata / method should be unused, extraneous, or purposeless, what you presented (in the second clip reflects a good use of kata it looks like, its just that I can do better, unless that is a basic version, and there is a better version that is more efficient with better mechanics, etc.  As I said, this is not an attack on the person, but the movement, application, information, etc.  

Thanks for the on topic post, look forward to hopefully respectful and productive discussion K-man / Cyracuis et al (except "the last legionary" - he is on my ****-list). 

Best,

G


----------



## Chris Parker

Right. My turn.

Gary, bluntly, you may have some physical skills, but you have shown absolutely no understanding whatsoever of martial arts here. At all. You seem stuck in the young mans quagmire of focusing on techniques and power, when that really is the least of it all. You have missed what makes a martial art what it is, what kata is really about, and more... and most of all, you've demonstrated no real indication that you are open to learning. You are simply outclassed in information and knowledge here, no matter what you think of yourself, on many levels. But I gotta say, telling K-Man that he's "young" is quite hysterical to me... especially when he's told you himself that he's been training a decade longer than you've been alive.

In short, son, grow up. You're not the biggest, baddest person here, and we're not that easily impressed. But, more importantly, you're wrong. If you're open to hearing why, ask, and I'll answer. But until then, the simple fact that you said "Yeesh" to Cyriacus' first clip shows that you have many years to go before you're on equal footing with the people you're discussing with, let alone Taira or his ilk.


----------



## Cyriacus

GaryR said:


> *Cyriacus*
> 
> The first clip...Yeesh...  I DO like the second clip --mostly, I've been teaching a similar technique for a LONG time, there are better ways of executing the method



Im sure there are. Hey, I wouldnt use This method. You did well for Yourself to divert the topic away from the that of Kata, however.
Also, yeesh? Yeah, Youre welcome to distate that Karate System if You wish. It just emphasises that Your idea of right and wrong aint universal.



> --sequence depicted in the clip: I would first strike at the same time as I grab (or intercept) the wrist/arm, *I also* wouldn't rely on any wrist grab, or continued wrist grab of the lapel here.



Good for You, Good Sir.



> The technique can be done, more fluidly, efficiently, with more power, and without depending on catching the wrist, or pinning it to your chest.



Aye - It can also be done pretty effectively with a grab to the anything followed by a strike. Grabbing isnt a necessary part of this kind of thing, at least not all the time. It secures the other person. Where exactly You grab isnt too important. You dont see Judo Fighters training the exact point of the collar They secure - Its incidental to setting up and or executing the Throw, or the Trip, or the Sweep. The most important thing is that it makes it harder for the other person to prevent what Youre doing. Grabbing the wrist (Which is rather seperate to catching it, since catching the wrist would be more akin to a palm block/hook block > grab) is incidental to setting up and or executing the punch, elbow, kick, headbutt, eye gouge, or whatever it is Youre doing.
If You arent a fan of grabs, Youre welcome to not be a fan of grabs. Im ok with that.
Im a fan of things that work, and the use of grabs works just as well as the not-use of grabs. Debating that is about as silly as debating whether Muay Thai fighters throw Their roundhouses harder than Karateka.



> If you want to talk and demo specifics, I am game.



Again mate, This aint Facebook. Its a discussion board. Im not here to give You demos. We can, however, discuss. Which is often needing of being specific.

Speaking of which, would You kindly focus on Kata and Pressure Points, since thats what We're meant to be talking about?
Its kinda why I posted My reply. And why I made it entirely about Kata, and how Theyre used to contain idealogies.
Additionally, Im sure theres other Kata in Bunkai which deal with the same grab in different ways. If Martial Arts have anything in common, Theyre palletes for Their user. That doesnt mean You can just slop paint all over the place and make a masterpiece, but a Wrestler and a Boxer arent better or worse for Their systems. The person, however, may have chosen grappling over striking.
Someone might like grabbing wrists.

Lastly, Power is important. About as important as actually getting it to work first. If Gyms have taught Me anything, its that just about any way shape or form of person can pound a bag forcefully. That doesnt make Them unstoppable, or Theyd all be going for world titles in no time.
Efficiency is subjective.
Fluidity? Eheh. I wont even go there. For everyones sake.
The important thing is that there are more important things than those three things.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*Final warning folks. (This makes 2 mod warnings for anyone paying attention).
Cut the insults and slams. 
Thank you.

*


----------



## GaryR

Cyriacus said:


> Speaking of which, would You kindly focus on Kata and Pressure Points, since thats what We're meant to be talking about?
> Its kinda why I posted My reply. And why I made it entirely about Kata, and how Theyre used to contain idealogies.
> Additionally, Im sure theres other Kata in Bunkai which deal with the same grab in different ways. If Martial Arts have anything in common, Theyre palletes for Their user. That doesnt mean You can just slop paint all over the place and make a masterpiece, but a Wrestler and a Boxer arent better or worse for Their systems. The person, however, may have chosen grappling over striking.
> Someone might like grabbing wrists.
> 
> Lastly, Power is important. About as important as actually getting it to work first. If Gyms have taught Me anything, its that just about any way shape or form of person can pound a bag forcefully. That doesnt make Them unstoppable, or Theyd all be going for world titles in no time.
> Efficiency is subjective.
> 
> 
> .



Great post and points, I agree, back on topic, or the flames could get hot, rather be productive, cheers.

G


----------



## GaryR

Chris Parker said:


> Right. My turn.
> 
> Gary, bluntly, you may have some physical skills, but you have shown absolutely no understanding whatsoever of martial arts here. At all. You seem stuck in the young mans quagmire of focusing on techniques and power, when that really is the least of it all.



Could you please be specific as to where I have shown misunderstanding and why?  I am happy and open to learn...  I am also FULLY aware of the quagmire of focusing on techniques and power.  I'm actually the opposite of the quagmire, I teach and practice by principle; techniques are minutia, and power should be a given with proper training, movement etc. 




Chris Parker said:


> You have missed what makes a martial art what it is, what kata is really about, and more... and most of all, you've demonstrated no real indication that you are open to learning. You are simply outclassed in information and knowledge here, no matter what you think of yourself, on many levels. But I gotta say, telling K-Man that he's "young" is quite hysterical to me... especially when he's told you himself that he's been training a decade longer than you've been alive.



No, I haven't, again I think you either need to re-read AND provide examples demonstrating what I've missed and how you deduced that?
Telling someone they are acting like a "kid" is hysterical, unfortunately what's not hysterical is that him is acting like one.  If you don't act your age in a conversation, it's unreasonable to then turn around and claim your older and your useless input should somehow be given weight...




Chris Parker said:


> In short, son, grow up. You're not the biggest, baddest person here, and we're not that easily impressed. But, more importantly, you're wrong. If you're open to hearing why, ask, and I'll answer.



We all have growing up to do, me included.  And your likely very right, I'm probably not the "biggest baddest person here".  I am not easily impressed either--- as evidence by my specific critique of really good material for its genre'.

Importantly, you have not shown I am wrong, its just a statement at this point, chances are we may align on more than you think, and be different in other ways. It is easy for two posters to be describing the same thing in two different ways / terms and they are similar in some respects and different in others.  , you may have misinterpreted what I have said, text is not a great venue, much of this stuff can be compared in person very quickly. I am open to hearing why, but you are so non-specific here, you would really need to quote me in context, then either and explain or demonstrate what you thought I was doing/ saying and B) how and why its wrong.  No reason to get personal, nobody's cup should be full, if we simply stay on topics, and discuss and compare methods/ ideas (as in this thread) ---Karate Kyusho application vs. Tai Chi Dim-mak application, for example that is wonderful, I was willing to provide video demonstrations of why I would change what and how if I critique it, that is a MORE than reasonable offer I put out, instead of taking it up I get bombared with crap instead                

If I'm wrong about anything, I am definitely open to hearing, being shown,\, someone said this inst' facebook, but sticking to purely text makes it really hard to discuss/compare. There are free upload services, and most cameras have a vid cam now anyway, why not if you can and have the time. At least be on  topic.  Here I am / would offer specific explanations, and  demonstrations.  Hopefully if any MT members are in LA they are cool.  



Chris Parker said:


> But until then, the simple fact that you said "Yeesh" to Cyriacus' first clip shows that you have many years to go before you're on equal footing with the people you're discussing with, let alone Taira or his ilk.



Not true, quite the opposite: The karate form- its GOOD---for karate. But there are vast details behind my "yeesh" that are well beyond the scope of this thread.  Therefore, you cannot reasonably draw an inference either way as to where my "footing" is.  

I look forward to hopefully having productive discussion with you, I appreciate that you at least offered to provide feedback, perhaps we can use this pressure point application thread to share relevant info to it and constructive feedback. 

Respectfully, 

Gary


----------



## Tez3

GaryR said:


> *So are you or are you not Roddy Piper*??? ..............................................................................


[/QUOTE]

:ultracool wow.


----------



## rickster

As for pressure points and wrist grabbing in a hardcore brawl...I say K.I.S.S.

Keep It Simple Son (I didnt want to say another derogatory word)


That said, the more basic and proven method will prevail over all the wishy washy stuff


----------



## Cyriacus

rickster said:


> As for pressure points and wrist grabbing in a hardcore brawl...I say K.I.S.S.
> 
> Keep It Simple Son (I didnt want to say another derogatory word)
> 
> 
> That said, the more basic and proven method will prevail over all the wishy washy stuff



Optionally, use Pressure Points based on Chinese Meridians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Chinese_meridians.JPG

That way, You can just wildly swing at things, and Youll be hitting Pressure Points like a champ!


----------



## K-man

Cyriacus said:


> Optionally, use Pressure Points based on Chinese Meridians.
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Chinese_meridians.JPG
> 
> That way, You can just wildly swing at things, and Youll be hitting Pressure Points like a champ!


You will be hitting pressure points, but with wild swings, it won't be like a champ.  Hitting many of the pressure points requires attacking at the right angle. The kata give you the angles and the targets.    :asian:


----------



## Cyriacus

K-man said:


> You will be hitting pressure points, but with wild swings, it won't be like a champ.  Hitting many of the pressure points requires attacking at the right angle. The kata give you the angles and the targets.    :asian:



Psst! I know 

But what if You want to be a wild Champ?


----------



## Supra Vijai

Cyriacus said:


> Psst! I know
> 
> But what if You want to be a wild Champ?



_This _wild Champ?


----------



## Cyriacus

Supra Vijai said:


> _This _wild Champ?



Hm. Does the skirt have to be that color? If so, Ill need to think about it...


----------



## Supra Vijai

Cyriacus said:


> Hm. Does the skirt have to be that color? If so, Ill need to think about it...



I'm sure your local Poke-centre will let you customise it.... if you ask nice and hit the right pressure points to persuade them


----------



## Cyriacus

Supra Vijai said:


> I'm sure your local Poke-centre will let you customise it.... if you ask nice and hit the right pressure points to persuade them



...So... I should go in there and start swinging at Their head area, and when I score enough Pressure Point Points I win?


----------



## Tez3

Cyriacus said:


> Hm. Does the skirt have to be that color? If so, Ill need to think about it...




and clogs on the feet?


----------



## Supra Vijai

Cyriacus said:


> ...So... I should go in there and start swinging at Their head area, and when I score enough Pressure Point Points I win?



Seems legit. That's still better tactically than anything Fighters Uncaged on Xbox Kinect offers. You probably wouldn't have so much lag that your character throws one jab after you've thrown a couple of jabs, half a dozen hooks and a kick of some description. 



Tez3 said:


> and clogs on the feet?



Tez, we've discussed clogs before. They aren't ALL bad! These ones though could benefit from being black with some nice red detailing perhaps?


----------



## rickster

Cyriacus said:


> Optionally, use Pressure Points based on Chinese Meridians.
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Chinese_meridians.JPG
> 
> That way, You can just wildly swing at things, and Youll be hitting Pressure Points like a champ!



In a brawl, no use wasting time...just hit and move


----------



## Cyriacus

rickster said:


> In a brawl, no use wasting time...just hit and move



Somewere in there, You seem to have missed the point. lol



Tez3 said:


> and clogs on the feet?



Mm. Pink clogs and a yellow dress would be fine.



Supra Vijai said:


> Seems legit. That's still better tactically  than anything Fighters Uncaged on Xbox Kinect offers. You probably  wouldn't have so much lag that your character throws one jab after  you've thrown a couple of jabs, half a dozen hooks and a kick of some  description.



Yeah. Intense simulators like it can only go so far.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Gary,



GaryR said:


> Could you please be specific as to where I have shown misunderstanding and why?  I am happy and open to learn...


 
Specific? Honestly, most of your comments in this thread alone, really.  Most particularly when it comes to kata.



GaryR said:


> I am also FULLY aware of the quagmire of focusing on techniques and power.  I'm actually the opposite of the quagmire, I teach and practice by principle; techniques are minutia, and power should be a given with proper training, movement etc.



That's not whats coming across, though. And you perhaps have misunderstood what I was referring to when I mentioned "power and techniques". Your constant claims that you could "handle" seniors in various arts without putting your tea down, that you could show persons such as Taira Sensei ways to "tweak" and improve their art, show that you are only thinking about the, frankly, very basic approach to martial arts, in that you aren't really focused on the martial art itself, just on what you think is most effective as a fighting method (in other words, your own personal take on techniques and [personsal] power). As such, you are showing a lack of understanding of the arts themselves, and are absolutely showing to be stuck in the aforementioned quagmire (but, out of interest, what would be the "opposite of the quagmire"? Doesn't really make any sense, you know... ).



GaryR said:


> No, I haven't, again I think you either need to re-read AND provide examples demonstrating what I've missed and how you deduced that?



Again, it's honestly all the way through these posts... here's a few examples:



GaryR said:


> No method/strategy or technique should rely on dim-mak (a specific target) for success, but like i said before it can be icing on the cake, and sometimes, that icing can save your a@@.



So a method/strategy shouldn't rely on proper targeting, but proper targeting can save you? Are you sure you know which way you're going with that?



GaryR said:


> George Dillman to my knowledge is a nice, and skilled man; but all things are relative, many karate practitioners "advance" to CMA like application after black belt level - why not start earlier, cross train at least!



Dillman? Hmm, not the greatest bastion of credibility there.... 






Then there's the back and forth where you quoted Erle's take on knife defence (don't grab the knife hand), got questioned about it, turned back 180 degrees, and still missed some of the most essential realities of knife defence. For some ideas of corrections, look here: http://icqpoa.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/cqc-basics-knife-defence-primal.html

Then there's the entirety of post 60... and the conversation that followed, which seemed to show that you weren't really open to other views on kata.



GaryR said:


> Telling someone they are acting like a "kid" is hysterical, unfortunately what's not hysterical is that him is acting like one.  If you don't act your age in a conversation, it's unreasonable to then turn around and claim your older and your useless input should somehow be given weight...



Uh... you seem to be confusing who is saying what here. K-Man never acted like a child, and I've never known him to. Legionary, on the other hand, would be the first to admit to such actions, but he does it for specific reasons. You might want to take check of your own message, though. How is you saying that other people's input is "useless" because it disagrees with you not you acting like a spoiled child?



GaryR said:


> We all have growing up to do, me included.  And your likely very right, I'm probably not the "biggest baddest person here".  I am not easily impressed either--- as evidence by my specific critique of really good material for its genre'.



Can you point out which "specific critique of really good material for it's genre" you're talking about here? Post 68, for instance, is just plain ignorance over and over again. If you want, I'm happy to go through it and point out where you're wrong throughout the entire thing... 



GaryR said:


> Importantly, you have not shown I am wrong, its just a statement at this point, chances are we may align on more than you think, and be different in other ways. It is easy for two posters to be describing the same thing in two different ways / terms and they are similar in some respects and different in others.  , you may have misinterpreted what I have said, text is not a great venue, much of this stuff can be compared in person very quickly. I am open to hearing why, but you are so non-specific here, you would really need to quote me in context, then either and explain or demonstrate what you thought I was doing/ saying and B) how and why its wrong.  No reason to get personal, nobody's cup should be full, if we simply stay on topics, and discuss and compare methods/ ideas (as in this thread) ---Karate Kyusho application vs. Tai Chi Dim-mak application, for example that is wonderful, I was willing to provide video demonstrations of why I would change what and how if I critique it, that is a MORE than reasonable offer I put out, instead of taking it up I get bombared with crap instead



Everything you've said about kata is wrong. We couldn't possibly be in agreement on that. And no, I haven't pointed it out with specific instances, as I said that I would if you asked, and as K-Man, Flying Crane, and others had already done so before me, but you refused to listen. So unless you are genuinely asking to be corrected, and are open to the idea that your take on kata is completely off base, and very much an amateur/beginner understanding (which you haven't demonstrated such openness so far), then I'll give it to you.



GaryR said:


> If I'm wrong about anything, I am definitely open to hearing, being shown,\, someone said this inst' facebook, but sticking to purely text makes it really hard to discuss/compare. There are free upload services, and most cameras have a vid cam now anyway, why not if you can and have the time. At least be on  topic.  Here I am / would offer specific explanations, and  demonstrations.  Hopefully if any MT members are in LA they are cool.



Thing is, a video wouldn't really do anything, as it's your intellectual understanding of the training method that's flawed. And that can be explained by the written word a lot easier than by video. The fact that you think it is shows that you're dealing with people a fair bit above your level here.



GaryR said:


> Not true, quite the opposite: The karate form- its GOOD---for karate. But there are vast details behind my "yeesh" that are well beyond the scope of this thread.  Therefore, you cannot reasonably draw an inference either way as to where my "footing" is.


 
No, believe me Gary, I can see exactly where your footing is, what your path has been, and the filters you're looking at all this through... which is why I can see how far off base you are, as well as why. I can see why you said it, or at least why you felt that it was an appropriate comment to have, but you are really off base completely here. 



GaryR said:


> I look forward to hopefully having productive discussion with you, I appreciate that you at least offered to provide feedback, perhaps we can use this pressure point application thread to share relevant info to it and constructive feedback.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Gary



Let's see, then.


----------



## Cyriacus

GaryR said:


> Not true, quite the opposite: The karate form- its GOOD---_*for karate*_. But there are vast details behind my "yeesh" that are well beyond the scope of this thread.  Therefore, you cannot reasonably draw an inference either way as to where my "footing" is.



I for one know where Your footing is.



GaryR said:


> but all things are relative, many karate practitioners *"advance" to CMA*_  like application after black belt level_- why not start earlier, cross  train at least!


----------



## Tez3

Cyriacus said:


> I for one know where Your footing is.



On a slippery slope?


----------



## Supra Vijai

Tez3 said:


> On a slippery slope?



With all due respect here, Page 5 was a slippery slope. Pretty much everything since has been a few feet off the edge of a very tall cliff free falling rapidly


----------



## Cyriacus

Tez3 said:


> On a slippery slope?



The slope has come and gone


----------



## GaryR

_&#8220;Let's see, then.&#8221;_

Great, I&#8217;ll make another attempt.  

First, since you illustrated your faulty point with video, I&#8217;ll dispense with one inaccuracy first.  

You said

_&#8220;Dillman? Hmm, not the greatest bastion of credibility there....&#8221;_

I would agree with you here, he is NOT the greatest bastion of credibility.  I believe the entirety of what I have said about the man on this thread is below:  My compliments of &#8220;nice&#8221; and &#8220;skilled&#8221; are far outweighed by my critiques (see unquoted second paragraph). 

&#8220;George Dillman to my knowledge is a nice, and skilled man; but all things are relative, many karate practitioners "advance" to CMA like application after black belt level - why not start earlier, cross train at least!&#8221;

&#8220;Back to pressure point karateka----Back in the day Dillman and Moneymaker (one or both??) even sent me courtesy copies of their tapes (which I thought were GOOD for karate as well). But still, the movements are more rigid, lack the economy of motion, and are breaking some basic bio-mechanical / rules of physics that are holding them back, also even attempting to adhere to a long sequence (if that's what your doing) is well...not helpful, despite how comparatively helpful it was to what you were doing&#8221;

-----
*Second*, it appears the crux of your issue with me (and my posts) &#8211; is that you believe me to be wrong about kata:

_&#8220;Everything you've said about kata is wrong. We couldn't possibly be in agreement on that. And no, I haven't pointed it out with specific instances, as I said that I would if you asked&#8230;&#8221;_

Anytime I see words like &#8220;everything&#8221;, &#8220;nothing&#8221;, &#8220;always&#8221;, or &#8220;never&#8221; in someone&#8217;s argument, an extra B.S flag has to go up.  Especially when no specific instance is described, nor is your take on kata described. 




_&#8220;Specific? Honestly, most of your comments in this thread alone, really. Most particularly when it comes to kata.&#8221;_

Ok, so instead of conjecture and conclusory statements let&#8217;s be specific re Kata. Why don&#8217;t go through and explain why I am wrong about everything, why and how it can be fixed?  It would be interesting to read, even if I disagree with your disagreements, at which point--without another venue of demonstration, or more context it becomes a race to the bottom. 


_&#8220;Then there's the back and forth where you quoted Erle's take on knife defence (don't grab the knife hand), got questioned about it, turned back 180 degrees, and still missed some of the most essential realities of knife defence. For some ideas of corrections, look here: http://icqpoa.blogspot.com.au/2012/0...ce-primal.html&#8221;_


I don&#8217;t see a &#8220;back and forth&#8221; ,I posted a quote, was asked about a specific part, and I gave my take on it (below).  There was no further discussion.  Nor did I mean my post or quote to be a complete knife defense treatise. 


&#8220;I agree in part with you, and from what I've learned from Erle in person-so did he. Ideally one should be able to evade/strike/control arm & weapon, and disable all in one swift move. Ideal, as I think Erle's rule is harping on is often times unrealistic. Counting on it to save your life is reducing your survival % significantly IMO. &#8220;


But a blade is a contact weapon, not just a stabbing one. A wildly flinging novice with a knife is very dangerous and difficult to wrist grab/control despite any --illusions / lack of proper training/exp.-- about how you may handle such life or death situation. (elbow, shoulder, head, and neck control can be used sometimes to greater affect)&#8221;

-----------------
_&#8220;Thing is, a video wouldn't really do anything, as it's your intellectual understanding of the training method that's flawed. And that can be explained by the written word a lot easier than by video. The fact that you think it is shows that you're dealing with people a fair bit above your level here.&#8221;_


Again, you have failed to point out why, and what your training method is.  A picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth 30 frames per second, and yes, the intellectual understanding can be discussed via text to a point (harder via a one-way posting board).  However, you have not engaged in such discussion other than vague and stern contempt.  So give it a go, explain your training method, and why mine is flawed? Discussions as to what the best training methods are should be what this forum is about. 

A &#8220;fair bit above my level&#8221;, HA! you couldn't be more wrong.  Why don't you upload a few videos of yourself manifesting such principals?  Ill be generous, and when able, I'll donate my time and provide you with a free consultation via video and demonstrate what/how you can improve. We can let the non-bias public decide for themselves if my combat principals and manifestation of such are above your level. 



_&#8220;No, believe me Gary, I can see exactly where your footing is, what your path has been, and the filters you're looking at all this through... which is why I can see how far off base you are, as well as why. I can see why you said it, or at least why you felt that it was an appropriate comment to have, but you are really off base completely here.&#8221; _


Interesting B.S deduction Chris, from your profile it appears you have only studied one art?  I don&#8217;t think that would give one much perspective? Regardless, I wouldn&#8217;t be so presumptive to pretend to know someone&#8217;s &#8220;footing&#8221; is based on a few posts and some decade + old material on the web?  You must think you&#8217;re the Nostradamus of the MA, lol.  


_&#8220;Your constant claims that you could "handle" seniors in various arts without putting your tea down, that you could show persons such as Taira Sensei ways to "tweak" and improve their art, show that you are only thinking about the, frankly, very basic approach to martial arts, in that you aren't really focused on the martial art itself, just on what you think is most effective as a fighting method (in other words, your own personal take on techniques and [personsal] power).&#8221;_


Yet another misquote and incorrect statement.  My quote started with &#8220;Find a grandmaster or blackbelt etc who has solo kata experience alone&#8230;tea&#8230;&#8221;  My point being that a person can&#8217;t learn to fight well without two-person training.


Yes, I could show Taira how to &#8220;tweak&#8221; things.  I&#8217;m not talking about any specific &#8220;techniques&#8221;, I am talking about principals / concepts, and mechanics changes.  These &#8220;tweaks&#8221; are not meant to be &#8220;focused on the martial art itself&#8221;, and yes, they are simply focused on what&#8217;s will result in the most combat viable material.  These are after all MARTIAL arts.  


As I&#8217;ve said before, I am not focused on techniques, but principal or &#8220;artform&#8221; as I believe your linked Ninjitsu site called it. If your training is anything like described, there are parallels too my approach.   So in Lieu of you sharing your perspective on training / kata, I&#8217;ll post what was on the Ninjitsu site and comment&#8230;  


_&#8220;Common in most martial arts to repeatedly drill basic techniques. However this is not the approach that Takamatsu Sensei used. Instead he would present techniques that reflected the combat principle that he wanted his students to exercise, together with several variations.&#8221;_


This describes part of my teaching method as well.  I present a principal, and manifest it in several variations so the student could understand the combat principal.  This leads to more personal development, and of course makes the methods more functional and dynamic when it comes to spontaneous adrenal stress training etc.  


_&#8220;This constantly changing series of techniques and variations was often confusing to his students. But what they didn't realize was that he was focusing on the essence of every technique ... the ninjutsu artform.&#8221;_


True, it can be confusing; some students can&#8217;t grasp the principal until learning several variations etc.  Additionally, many principals / &#8220;artform&#8221; / "body method" are packed into things the student isn&#8217;t academically, or consciously aware of until later, at which point they can develop things further, and take another step in their training. 


_&#8220;Countless techniques and variations overload the conscious mind, and can cause students to feel lost and confused. But what students often fail to realise is that the "techniques" are not the answer to developing a versatile self defence skill. The answer is actually the "artform" that is the basis of all the techniques.&#8221;_


I agree, I believe &#8220;techniques&#8221; are not the answer to versatile skill, I&#8217;ve said so for more than a decade, &#8220;artform&#8221; / combat principal is what matters.  


_&#8220;Once you have grasped the artform, you can express 10,000 techniques.&#8221;_


I agree to the basic premise, not sure If I would pin things down to an exact figure.  


_&#8220;So he taught in a way that gradually developed an unconscious expression of artform, not set techniques. And while his students were focusing on trying to remember the various strikes and kicks and limb-controls, he was focusing on natural power, balance, distance, timing... and retaining a centred mind.&#8221;_


Interesting how you critiqued me for my alleged take on &#8220;power&#8221;, when it is the first focus mentioned here&#8230;again I agree with the above. 

_
&#8220;This approach is a very sophisticated method of teaching, however most ninjutsu instructors around the world still don't understand it.&#8221;_


I don&#8217;t doubt it; many schools of all styles get caught up in learning a set of &#8220;techniques&#8221; or collect forms or solo &#8220;kata&#8221; and never learn any combat principals that will manifest well under duress. 


Again, many parallels, if this is your approach, I&#8217;m not sure why all of the hostile presumptions? Perhaps you are assuming I have not successfully applied and taught others via the training method / principals I mention? 


Anyhow, the bottom line is that at large&#8212;you are simply wrong.  That fact has already been proven to me, if you don&#8217;t want to believe me that&#8217;s fine, go about doing what you&#8217;re doing by all means.  But, please, let the rest of us have a productive discussion without your interjection of conjecture, misquotes, and further negativity.  Perhaps someone else can benefit from the information.  Time is precious, why waste it. 


Last, I don&#8217;t mean to be offensive.  I am not saying anything I wouldn&#8217;t say in person, preferably over a beer and some laughs, agreeing to disagree is ultimately fine.


Best,

Gary


----------



## Cyriacus

garyr said:


> again, many parallels, if this is your approach, im not sure why all of the hostile presumptions? Perhaps you are assuming i have not successfully applied and taught others via the training method / principals i mention?



"interesting b.s deduction chris, from your profile it appears you have only studied one art?"
"So give it a go, explain your training method, and why mine is flawed? Discussions as to what the best training methods are should be what this forum is about. "
"A fair bit above my level, ha! You couldn't be more wrong. why don't you upload a few videos of yourself manifesting such principals? Ill be generous, and when able, i'll donate my time and provide you with a free consultation via video and demonstrate what/how you can improve. We can let the non-bias public decide for themselves if my combat principals and manifestation of such are above your level. "

I guess its ok when you do it.



garyr said:


> Last, i dont mean to be offensive.  I am not saying anything i wouldnt say in person, preferably over a beer and some laughs, agreeing to disagree is ultimately fine.


And now some humor.

*Sips Beer*
"Haha! We can let the non-bias public decide for themselves if my combat principals and manifestation of such are above your level. More beer?"


----------



## GaryR

Cyriacus said:


> "interesting b.s deduction chris, from your profile it appears you have only studied one art?"
> "So give it a go, explain your training method, and why mine is flawed? Discussions as to what the best training methods are should be what this forum is about. "
> "A &#8220;fair bit above my level&#8221;, ha! You couldn't be more wrong. why don't you upload a few videos of yourself manifesting such principals? Ill be generous, and when able, i'll donate my time and provide you with a free consultation via video and demonstrate what/how you can improve. We can let the non-bias public decide for themselves if my combat principals and manifestation of such are above your level. "
> 
> I guess its ok when you do it.
> 
> 
> And now some humor.
> 
> *Sips Beer*
> "Haha! We can let the non-bias public decide for themselves if my combat principals and manifestation of such are above your level. More beer?"



Alright Mr. Tae kwon Joke blue belt, lol - thanks for another substantive post.  I haven't been so presumptive of Mr. Parker, so the hypocrisy is not as implied. 

Cheers,

G


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## Cyriacus

GaryR said:


> Alright Mr. Tae kwon Joke blue belt, lol


And Im not going to respond to baseless insults, thanks 
*Puts you on ignore*

EDIT: In hindsight, it seems that waking up all of an hour ago may have led me to be a bit misleading - Im not actually taking that seriously. I just dont feel like going into more detail about an arguement that doesnt affect me.
Sorry if that was misunderstood 
All i will say is that MT is not a Proving Ground - Its for discussing anything MA related. Not just the best teaching methods. If thats what you want to use it for, thats a whole other matter. But expect a visit from the great debate.

Edit 2: In fact, ill just make the original reply nice and small. Because my vain attempt at humor may have resulted in coming across a bit differently to how id have liked. Eh... Yeah. Now i just kinda really want to see if you were typing a reply before i had a chance to edit this, thusly causing us to be having a totally disinformed conversation. Which would be amazing


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## Supra Vijai

GaryR said:


> Interesting B.S deduction Chris, from your profile it appears you have only studied one art?  I don&#8217;t think that would give one much perspective? Regardless, I wouldn&#8217;t be so presumptive to pretend to know someone&#8217;s &#8220;footing&#8221; is based on a few posts and some decade + old material on the web?  You must think you&#8217;re the Nostradamus of the MA, lol.



I'm not about to overstep my bounds and speak for Mr. Parker or provide any specifics but trust me, he studies more than one art... not all is as it seems and not everyone advertises everything.

That said, in regards to the below quote and the rest of your response...




> As I&#8217;ve said before, I am not focused on techniques, but principal or &#8220;artform&#8221; as I believe your linked *Ninjitsu* site called it. If your training is anything like described, there are parallels too my approach.   So in Lieu of you sharing your perspective on training / kata, I&#8217;ll post what was on the Ninjitsu site and comment&#8230;




Gary, you copied stuff off the Ninjutsu website which you visited through a link on Mr. Parker's signature. Then how on earth did you manage to spell it wrong everytime you typed it??? Ninj*u*tsu, not Ninj*i*tsu.


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## jks9199

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Drop the attacks and shots at each other.

jks9199
MT Assistant Adminstrator
*


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## rickster

I thought this thread was about attacking pressure points, not each other.

Pressure point study could be useful, but not probable in real scenarios.

Simply, people have different tolerances.

Now, applying these pressure point areas for a mild type of healing, still has to be proven to or accepted by modern medicine.

In short, pressure point attacks-defenses, are not the "magic bullet"


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## GaryR

rickster said:


> I thought this thread was about attacking pressure points, not each other.
> 
> Pressure point study could be useful, but not probable in real scenarios.
> 
> Simply, people have different tolerances.
> 
> Now, applying these pressure point areas for a mild type of healing, still has to be proven to or accepted by modern medicine.
> 
> In short, pressure point attacks-defenses, are not the "magic bullet"



Agreed.

Also agreed it's not a magic bullet.  But, generically speaking the best targets should be "built-in" so to speak into ones methods. Hit or miss though, your material should work.  

A few minutes in you can see that in this push hands drill the vital points are built into the "circles" / "lines" etc, upon which you connect with your opponent / blend / attack , etc. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36QGqwuLZHI&feature=relmfu

Other random dim-mak application related stuff...











best,

G


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## Chris Parker

Not having the time to go through this presently, I'll reply to Gary on the weekend. This is really just so he knows I've seen it, and I'm not ignoring him.


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## GaryR

Chris Parker said:


> Not having the time to go through this presently, I'll reply to Gary on the weekend. This is really just so he knows I've seen it, and I'm not ignoring him.



Thanks brother, no worries, take your time, busy here as well.

Best,

Gary


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## elder999

Can't believe you made it through nine pages without someone reporting that hakko ryu jujutsu utilizes pressure points and meridians for distraction, arrest and dispatch through pain compliance or _ki_ disruption.

Must be getting old....:lol:


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## punisher73

Here are my thoughts on pressure points in regards to martial arts...



Ok, pretty much anything that can be measured (in regards to physical aspects) can be measured.  Applying that to pain tolerance, you are going to have about 70% of the population with a moderate response to pressure points.  You are also going to have about another 15% of the population that has a very high response (low pain tolerance) to the pressure points, and then on the other end of the spectrum about 15% that will have little or no response (high pain tolerance).  So, as a conservative estimate pressure points will work with about 85% of the people in normal circumstances.  That figure will be slightly skewed due to adrenaline, drugs/alchohol.

So playing the odds, if you can hit a pressure point, it will likely have the effect that you wanted it to.  On the other hand, if you know how to hit properly, you are still causing damage to the body whether or not the person felt it, and are still effecting them structurally.

I also think it is important to differentiate the different types of "pressure points".  Are you talking pain points, nerve points, bone points, organ shots, etc.  In my work, I have hit people with nerve shots and effected the limb to stop working, but they didn't really feel it at all, so I think it is important to figure out what is meant.  Now, if on the other hand you are talking about only hitting a precise sequence of small accupoints, then I'm not a big fan of that.  I still remember seeing a certain well known PP instructor in a magazine showing him pushing a pressure point in his partner's foot with his big toe, while he activated another one on the attacker's arm while the other hand was activated a 3rd point on the attacker.  Huh?  Even with a cooperative person he looked bound up and off balance.  I prefer to rely on specific medical points, and know "why" it does what it does.  I don't have time to check my watch and see that it is the hour of the ram so the small intestine meridian is vulnerable.


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