# I am physically unable to relax my upper body during kata. Should I give up Karate altogether?



## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."

I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."

I have two options:
a.) Just keep doing Karate incorrectly and probably never receive my black belt (as this is something that I have seen people get failed for during Dan testing).
b.) Quit Karate altogether.

If both of these seem like bad ideas, then someone please, for the love of God, tell me exactly how to correct this problem. "Just relax," "work on your flexibility," "make your stances stronger," are vague answers that will not help. Right now, I am looking for a precise, exact solution to this problem so that I can stop performing kata so poorly and start doing Karate like I'm supposed to. I want to know what the exact secret is to relaxing the upper body. I want to know the precise order in which the muscles need to contract, what trajectory they need to follow, the timing of the contraction, the position of my spine, the position of my foot, the timing of my breathing, etc. _*I need extremely precise details on how to relax my upper body and perform kata correctly.*_ I don't care if it means spending years on shoulder conditioning, I don't care if it means taking some weird supplement, I don't care if it means getting some bizarre surgical procedure to make my shoulders more relaxed, I don't care if it means getting cybernetic enhancements to force my shoulders to relax. This is starting to get annoying and I want to fix this problem so I can finally do Karate correctly after 7 years of training.


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## jobo (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...


its not karate  your having problems with is it? its kata  if kata stops you getting a black belt it's not the sort of black belt you actualy want.

tell him to leave you alone to do it how you wish, nothing makes it harder to relax than someone telling you to relax, and why do you need to be relaxed anyway ?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> _*I need extremely precise details on how to relax my upper body and perform kata correctly.*_


When you are very tired, you won't have any more brute force to waste, you will be relaxed. If you spar/wrestle for 15 rounds, the last 5 rounds you will be relaxed.

If you train your form as slow (compress), fast (release), slow, fast, ... you won't be tensed all the time.


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## Ivan (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...


If you quit, the one thing you won't have tried is to keep trying.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> its not karate  your having problems with is it? its kata  if kata stops you getting a black belt it's not the sort of black belt you actualy want.
> 
> tell him to leave you alone to do it how you wish, nothing makes it harder to relax than someone telling you to relax, and why do you need to be relaxed anyway ?


The problem is that he is technically right: stiff kata look really bad, while relaxed ones look good. But even if I try my absolute hardest to emulate that relaxation, he keeps telling me that I'm too tense.


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## dancingalone (Feb 28, 2021)

Sounds like you have to unlearn what your body has naturally learned to do from other activities outside of karate.  This is a common problem with adult males that come into the art with a lifetime of doing other things.  Maybe from bodybuilding or from a physically demanding job.

Consider small steps first like practicing kata without the arms at all.  Just let them dangle at your sides.  Work on stepping properly with correct breathing.  Remember there is a kinetic chain that occurs at the feet and legs and you are constantly tightening and relaxing the leg and core muscles just to get the stepping correct.  Work on that first and cultivate the loose feeling in your arms and shoulders.  You want to get used to that feeling and space so when you hunch your shoulders and tighten up your arms, you'll swiftly know mentally that you're in a bad posture again.

This type of re-training is difficult and you'll have best results if you can find someone that can work with you for hundreds of hours.  Some work with an athletic performance trainer like someone that prepares pro athletes would probably be very valuable for you.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you are very tired, you won't have any more brute force to waste, you will be relaxed. If you spar/wrestle for 15 rounds, the last 5 rounds you will be relaxed.


The problem actually worsens when I'm exhausted!


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## Ivan (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...


Oh, and here's a tip.

Stand in horse stance and practice your punch. But when when you retract the punch, keep the pam open. You will "feel" the difference between relaxing and tensing. When your hand is tensed, it forms a fist. When relaxed, it opens. Practice this over and over until you understand the difference.

Once you do, apply this same method with another exercise that forces you to contract and extend different upper body exercises. The core is what you must focus on. So lie down on the ground, close your eyes and breathe deeply in and out 10 times. And have a tennis ball on hand. You should now be pretty relaxed - if it doesn't work, meditate until you are. Then with your eyes still closed, and your body still lying down, drop the tennis ball from as far up as you can onto your stomach - your core will subconsciously tighten to protect you from the impact. Continue to do this until you physically are able to tell the difference between relaxed abdominal muscles and tensed abdominal muscles.

You will know that you have achieved this when you are able to tighten your abdominal muscles whilst standing up as if you were being hit. When you can feel the difference, you can replicate both states - relaxed and tense.

Also, in kata, imagine your body to be like cement. When you're moving, it is wet - it flows and is soft. When you stop your technique (your kime) the cement is dried, hardened, and unbreakable.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Ivan said:


> Oh, and here's a tip.
> 
> Stand in horse stance and practice your punch. But when when you retract the punch, keep the pam open. You will "feel" the difference between relaxing and tensing. When your hand is tensed, it forms a fist. When relaxed, it opens. Practice this over and over until you understand the difference.
> 
> ...


I did all of that and I am indeed able to tell tension from relaxation, including in the abdominal muscles. I understand the concept of tension and relaxation and am able to demonstrate it in this exercise you mentioned; just not in actual kata.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> The problem actually worsens when I'm exhausted!


The Zimen system has an exercise to loose up 3 joints.

1. Raise your right palm next to your right ear, strike to the left side of your left knee (loose up shoulder joint).
2. Move your right hand in front of your chest (loose up elbow joint).
3. Move right hand to the right side of your body (loose up wrist joint).
4. Repeat left arm.

Start slow and increase speed. Your body will be relaxed.

It's similar to this clip.

字门太极拳基本功2---抛三关_腾讯视频


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

*I have a large monetary reward for anyone who can successfully help me with this. When I say I am desperate, I mean I am desperate.*


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## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2021)

Learning to use the legs to generate power, instead of tension in the upper body, is something that, in my opinion, a lot of schools do a poor job of teaching.  It may be that your teacher lacks the skill and knowledge to do so effectively.  Some people manage to figure it out but a lot of people struggle for longer than it ought to take, if there were a systematic methodology in place to do so.  

Some systems have figured out a methodology to develop that understanding.  Others have not.  Unfortunately I cannot teach you over the internet and I doubt others can either.  Simply telling you to relax is clearly not the answer.  You need a way to make sense of that and turn it into action and habit, and that is where a methodology is important.

I know this isn’t a solution for you, but perhaps it gives you perspective that can allow you to be less harsh in evaluating yourself.  In short, I don’t believe the problem is that you are failing.  It is likely that you aren’t being given the type of systematic methodology that you need, to understand and develop the skill. 

A different teacher may be better for you (that is not meant to be a criticism of your teacher, only an acknowledgement that all people will not thrive equally under the same teacher, some people will thrive more under a different teacher with a different approach).

Either way, don’t give up.  Do the best you can with what you have to work with.  Someday if you find something better, then do that.


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## Ivan (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I did all of that and I am indeed able to tell tension from relaxation, including in the abdominal muscles. I understand the concept of tension and relaxation and am able to demonstrate it in this exercise you mentioned; just not in actual kata.


You don't get to do it once and say you've done it. It's a process. I have been doing Taekwondo Poomsae for 3 years and I do it well - but I still cannot tense my abs on-demand as I described above. The only person that can help you with an issue like this is yourself, others can only give advice.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> A different teacher may be better for you (that is not meant to be a criticism of your teacher, only an acknowledgement that all people will not thrive equally under the same teacher, some people will thrive more under a different teacher with a different approach).


Here's the thing about my instructor: without saying exactly who he is (although some people here might), he was once a member of the Italian national team, and it shows not only in his kata performance but in the performance of the other students, even ones that have been training for just a few months under him.

The problem is not on his end; it is on my end. And the problem isn't my knowledge of how to contract and relax; the problem is that nothing I do seems to please him.

So tell me: what is the secret to relaxing? Like I said, I have a large monetary reward for anyone who can tell me what it is.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> *I have a large monetary reward for anyone who can successfully help me with this. When I say I am desperate, I mean I am desperate.*


How much? 

If you can come down to California, assuming we can work out a Covid-safe way to train, then I can help you.  But it isn’t a quick answer.  It requires changing how you do things and working on it over a long period of time, which will likely be longer given the amount of time you’ve been (likely) developing bad habits. 

Yes, this is fixable.  What I can teach you could probably be applied to the shotokan you are currently doing, but the better answer might be a change of system altogether where the methodology that I practice is really meant to operate.  But that is a bigger issue for later discussion.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Ivan said:


> You don't get to do it once and say you've done it. It's a process. I have been doing Taekwondo Poomsae for 3 years and I do it well - but I still cannot tense my abs on-demand as I described above. The only person that can help you with an issue like this is yourself, others can only give advice.


I have done it for years. Not just once.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> How much?
> 
> If you can come down to California, assuming we can work out a Covid-safe way to train, then I can help you.  But it isn’t a quick answer.  It requires changing how you do things and working on it over a long period of time, which will likely be longer given the amount of time you’ve been (likely) developing bad habits.
> 
> Yes, this is fixable.  What I can teach you could probably be applied to the shotokan you are currently doing, but the better answer might be a change of system altogether where the methodology that I practice is really meant to operate.  But that is a bigger issue for later discussion.


If it isn't a quick answer, I assume it's a several-year answer. The only problem is that I only have a limited amount of years left (I'd say roughly 80), and I've already used about 7 of them. I have seen dozens of people come into the dojo and start doing kata better than me after mere months, some of them extremely out-of-shape. I can tell that this problem is not an overarching physical or mental issue but something else that I am simply not getting.

What is the secret?


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## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Here's the thing about my instructor: without saying exactly who he is (although some people here might), he was once a member of the Italian national team, and it shows not only in his kata performance but in the performance of the other students, even ones that have been training for just a few months under him.
> 
> The problem is not on his end; it is on my end. And the problem isn't my knowledge of how to contract and relax; the problem is that nothing I do seems to please him.
> 
> So tell me: what is the secret to relaxing? Like I said, I have a large monetary reward for anyone who can tell me what it is.


Like I said, it’s not meant to be a criticism against your teacher.  Rather, it may be that he isn’t the best teacher _for_ _you_.  

While he may produce excellent students in most cases, what you need may be something he isn’t able to provide. 

What you need is a way to understand and develop how the legs engage.  Without that, the natural inclination is to “muscle through” everything, which leads to tension.  When you grasp how to engage the legs properly, then letting go of the tension can happen.


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## Buka (Feb 28, 2021)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Quececois. 

Have you tried any Tai Chi?


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Like I said, it’s not meant to be a criticism against your teacher.  Rather, it may be that he isn’t the best teacher _for_ _you_.
> 
> While he may produce excellent students in most cases, what you need may be something he isn’t able to provide.
> 
> What you need is a way to understand and develop how the legs engage.  Without that, the natural inclination is to “muscle through” everything, which leads to tension.  When you grasp how to engage the legs properly, then letting go of the tension can happen.


Correct me if I'm wrong but don't professional fighters "muscle through" their techniques all the time? Is there really a problem with using the upper body to generate power? In every physical altercation I have been in, the other guy was NOT relaxed, and I still had a hard time subduing him.

I've even seen some videos of Lyoto Machida doing kata, and he does them so slowly and rigidly, yet nobody complains about his fighting ability.

I'm tempted to go the "just live with it" route and continue muscling through kata, because honestly that seems closer to what professional fighters do anyway. And of course, that is literally the only way I am able to do kata.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> If it isn't a quick answer, I assume it's a several-year answer. The only problem is that I only have a limited amount of years left (I'd say roughly 80), and I've already used about 7 of them. I have seen dozens of people come into the dojo and start doing kata better than me after mere months, some of them extremely out-of-shape. I can tell that this problem is not an overarching physical or mental issue but something else that I am simply not getting.
> 
> What is the secret?


Would you be able to post a video of you doing a kata, to the best of your ability?  It might give us a sense of just where you are in this.  

I’ve trained in a number of systems since I began in 1984.  Some of the instruction I have received was of higher quality than others.  I’ve definitely spent years working on things that I later discarded in favor of something better.  Even that which was sub-optimal was beneficial, even if it just gave me perspective on how to evaluate good and poor choices for me.  So don’t worry about the “time wasted”.  It wasn’t wasted.  It’s all good and we just try to be better where we can.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, Quececois.
> 
> Have you tried any Tai Chi?


I have considered it but I have seen plenty of people do kata without having a history of doing Tai Chi (or hell, half of the relaxation exercises I've been doing for the past several years).


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## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but don't professional fighters "muscle through" their techniques all the time? Is there really a problem with using the upper body to generate power? In every physical altercation I have been in, the other guy was NOT relaxed, and I still had a hard time subduing him.
> 
> I've even seen some videos of Lyoto Machida doing kata, and he does them so slowly and rigidly, yet nobody complains about his fighting ability.
> 
> I'm tempted to go the "just live with it" route and continue muscling through kata, because honestly that seems closer to what professional fighters do anyway. And of course, that is literally the only way I am able to do kata.


Physical strength is important in any athletic endeavor, but you get better results when you can use the strength appropriately, and not waste energy and exhaust yourself by inefficient use of your strength.  Good technique is about efficient use of your strength, so that your results are better, with less effort. 

An athletic and fit person can fight effectively with an over-reliance on strength, and with poor technique.  Yes, you can be successful that way.  But you can be much better if you develop better technique and better efficiency in how you use your strength.  And, as you age and you lose that ability to maintain fitness, you can still maintain effective martial ability without a need to expend so much effort.  You can practice your martial art for your entire life. 

I cannot comment on Loyota Machado, as I don’t follow MMA and am not familiar with his training approach.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Would you be able to post a video of you doing a kata, to the best of your ability?  It might give us a sense of just where you are in this.
> 
> I’ve trained in a number of systems since I began in 1984.  Some of the instruction I have received was of higher quality than others.  I’ve definitely spent years working on things that I later discarded in favor of something better.  Even that which was sub-optimal was beneficial, even if it just gave me perspective on how to evaluate good and poor choices for me.  So don’t worry about the “time wasted”.  It wasn’t wasted.  It’s all good and we just try to be better where we can.


I've been through plenty of instructors as well and they have all told me the same thing.


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## Quebecois2001 (Feb 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Physical strength is important in any athletic endeavor, but you get better results when you can use the strength appropriately, and not waste energy and exhaust yourself by inefficient use of your strength.  Good technique is about efficient use of your strength, so that your results are better, with less effort.
> 
> An athletic and fit person can fight effectively with an over-reliance on strength, and with poor technique.  Yes, you can be successful that way.  But you can be much better if you develop better technique and better efficiency in how you use your strength.  And, as you age and you lose that ability to maintain fitness, you can still maintain effective martial ability without a need to expend so much effort.  You can practice your martial art for your entire life.
> 
> I cannot comment on Loyota Machado, as I don’t follow MMA and am not familiar with his training approach.


Well in that case I give up. Thanks for the help.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Is there really a problem with using the upper body to generate power?


Power is generated from

- bottom and up.
- back to front.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Well in that case I give up. Thanks for the help.


I just sent you a private message.


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## jobo (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> The problem is that he is technically right: stiff kata look really bad, while relaxed ones look good. But even if I try my absolute hardest to emulate that relaxation, he keeps telling me that I'm too tense.


no they all look equally silly, it doesnt matter if you stiff or not, , once you accept that as true then you may relax, I can tell your exasperated with it, it's really of no consequence at all.


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> *I have a large monetary reward for anyone who can successfully help me with this. When I say I am desperate, I mean I am desperate.*



Work your core.

That will be $5


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> *I have a large monetary reward for anyone who can successfully help me with this. When I say I am desperate, I mean I am desperate.*


Give that money to a yoga or tai chi instructor. Take their classes. It should help.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> *I have a large monetary reward for anyone who can successfully help me with this. When I say I am desperate, I mean I am desperate.*


I would be willing to teach you if you are willing to have patience.  It's not an easy or quick path.  I had the same problem as you and it took me 2 years to of training to fix the issue.  It still pops up from time to time but it's much easier to fix and I can catch myself when it happens.

The issue that you are having is probably because you are naturally tense, all the time. I say naturally tense because it feels natural to you.  So when you think you are relaxed but you really aren't.  If you are like me then you probably have a lot of tension in the shoulders.  The reason it takes a long time is because you have to work train yourself out of the habit of being tense.   I'm not sure if you live with someone who can assist you with this type of training as it will make the entire process easier.  

The money isn't the issue on this one.  What it will cost you is patience and daily practice.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but don't professional fighters "muscle through" their techniques all the time? Is there really a problem with using the upper body to generate power?


Professional fighters will tell you the opposite and the ones that scare you the most will be the ones who are relaxed fighters.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have considered it but I have seen plenty of people do kata without having a history of doing Tai Chi (or hell, half of the relaxation exercises I've been doing for the past several years).


 I'm pretty sure those people didn't have the tension problems you have either.  Some people are naturally relaxed others like you are not.   If you are naturally relaxed then there's no need to do Tai Chi.


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## minn8325 (Feb 28, 2021)

Do you lift weights?


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 28, 2021)

From all this _angst _and worry on your part over this problem, I suggest you forget about the physical relaxation and work on your mental relaxation - you may just be trying too hard and letting your instructor cause you to be stressed out over it.  Don't feel pressured.  Let go.  Be happy.

Do your kata like one sings in the shower or alone in their car - uninhibited, uncaring how you look or sound.  Go thru the moves without trying to impress anyone with your speed and power, especially yourself.
,
I have found this following exercise very effective in loosening up a student's punch:  Imagine someone handing you a slip of paper, a glass of water, or offering a handshake.  How do you naturally extend your arm?  Go ahead, do it............... I'll bet your arm and shoulder were relaxed.  You'd look weird otherwise and nobody would want to hand you anything.

Punch just like that.  Don't think of it as a power strike right now, just think of it like a natural, relaxed motion, like reaching out to caress a lover's cheek.  Gradually, think about your stance, then gently phase in your hips, but still extend your arm like you're simply reaching out for something.  Then, after a couple of weeks, add in proper arm position and motion.  Now SLOWLY start to see yourself as actually punching and add in a little relaxed speed.  Gradually increase speed and add in your body motion (not arm) power.  After three weeks of progressing thru this exercise, you should be achieving your goal.


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## Ivan (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but don't professional fighters "muscle through" their techniques all the time? Is there really a problem with using the upper body to generate power? In every physical altercation I have been in, the other guy was NOT relaxed, and I still had a hard time subduing him.
> 
> I've even seen some videos of Lyoto Machida doing kata, and he does them so slowly and rigidly, yet nobody complains about his fighting ability.
> 
> I'm tempted to go the "just live with it" route and continue muscling through kata, because honestly that seems closer to what professional fighters do anyway. And of course, that is literally the only way I am able to do kata.


It looks slow and rigid. That's how Japanese Karate is. But it still stresses that staying relaxed only until the very last moment of impact or execution of a technique is crucial for generating power.

Staying tense throughout the whole of the technique tires you out more and makes your technique slower. Personally, I would tell you, learn the "correct" way according to karate, and then choose whether you feel best keeping tense the entire time or to alternate between tension and relaxation. But then that's not Karate, it's your style.

The majority of people fight differently - even if you get two completely identical people, both will have their preferences of fighting based on their training and experiences. Someone with low confidence might always step back and be a defensive fighter etc. But the reality is, you're learning Karate, not fighting. If you dedicate yourself to relaxing, you won't relax. Why? Because dedication is the opposite of relaxation.

Take any kata you want, and do 100 times through with no breaks - I guarantee you, you will be constantly relaxed by the 10th time, if not the 20th. Let your thoughts drift, don't focus on technique, think about that movie you watched yesterday evening, or what you'll be having for dinner. Then you'll learn how to relax.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...


I’d suggest getting input from someone else (besides your primary instructor) to look at your kata and suggest improvements. Don’t mention the tension - see if they come to that conclusion. Video would be a reasonable format. It may be that you’re making progress, and your instructor is simply pushing you in the area that promises the most gain. 

If you get the same feedback, maybe consider supplemental training in something that focuses on relaxation. Tai chi and Aikido both have this kind of focus. 

Know that some people progress slower in learning relaxed power, just like any other area of skill development. Slower development doesn’t mean you can’t keep developing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> The problem is that he is technically right: stiff kata look really bad, while relaxed ones look good. But even if I try my absolute hardest to emulate that relaxation, he keeps telling me that I'm too tense.


Likely he personally finds relaxation easy, so has trouble teaching it to those who don’t. Many instructors have something like this (for me, it’s falls and rolls).


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> This is a common problem with adult males that come into the art with a lifetime of doing other things.


In my experience, this goes beyond gender. Different problems can be more or less common, but adults of any gender often come in with much more pre-learned “bad habits”.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Here's the thing about my instructor: without saying exactly who he is (although some people here might), he was once a member of the Italian national team, and it shows not only in his kata performance but in the performance of the other students, even ones that have been training for just a few months under him.
> 
> The problem is not on his end; it is on my end. And the problem isn't my knowledge of how to contract and relax; the problem is that nothing I do seems to please him.
> 
> So tell me: what is the secret to relaxing? Like I said, I have a large monetary reward for anyone who can tell me what it is.


A great practitioner doesn’t always make a good teacher. They will still have strengths and weaknesses.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have seen dozens of people come into the dojo and start doing kata better than me after mere months,


During my time as a student, many more talented people came into the dojo. After 35 years, none of them are still active. Only one O can recall ever made it to Shodan. 

You have lots of time, or very little. If you want to develop, the time is well spent either way. What does it matter what others do?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but don't professional fighters "muscle through" their techniques all the time? Is there really a problem with using the upper body to generate power? In every physical altercation I have been in, the other guy was NOT relaxed, and I still had a hard time subduing him.
> 
> I've even seen some videos of Lyoto Machida doing kata, and he does them so slowly and rigidly, yet nobody complains about his fighting ability.
> 
> I'm tempted to go the "just live with it" route and continue muscling through kata, because honestly that seems closer to what professional fighters do anyway. And of course, that is literally the only way I am able to do kata.


Kata shouldn’t require muscle, except in those where tension is purposely introduced for development (though this won’t be the same as accidental tension).


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If you get the same feedback, maybe consider supplemental training in something that focuses on relaxation. Tai chi and Aikido both have this kind of focus.
> 
> Know that some people progress slower in learning relaxed power, just like any other area of skill development. Slower development doesn’t mean you can’t keep developing.


I didn't know Aikido had a similar focus.  I learned something new today


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't know Aikido had a similar focus.  I learned something new today


The softer the style of Aikido, the more it focuses on relaxation. But even the relatively “hard” aiki arts need this focus.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The softer the style of Aikido, the more it focuses on relaxation. But even the relatively “hard” aiki arts need this focus.


Sounds like something a lot of people can use with the Pandemic stress going on.  I wonder how well classes on relaxation will do these days?


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## _Simon_ (Feb 28, 2021)

G'day and welcome to the forum . I really appreciate your honesty and also your desperation too. 

No, this is something I don't feel you should quit. In fact I reckon nutting this issue out will be incredibly significant for you. And haha do not get surgery for this , and monetary reward, I wouldn't recommend hehe but I appreciate your willingness to want to see this issue through! 

I also struggle with incredible tension issues, manifesting as a severe pelvic tension issue that I've endured the last 3 years almost. Also upper body tension within my own karate practice too, so I can very much relate to this. It's been a work in progress for me, and still is, but I've come a really long way and my technique is dramatically different and more relaxed and free nowadays. 

It will not happen instantaeously. Some thoughts: 

Either a) your sensei just thinks you're tense but perhaps your structure/movement just looks in a way that suggests it's tense, but really is not. Or b) there really are unconscious tension issues. 

If the tension really is there, a few things come to mind... is it possible you're trying too hard to relax? Relaxation comes through letting go of excess concern. When you fill your technique with excessive ambition, that is, being overly concerned with the 'shape', form and perrrrfect technique, it can really hike up into your upper body and manifest as tension. It's like an over-concerned seriousness that is filled with solarplexus driven ambition, and it can really stifle the natural flow of technique. 

Sometimes this is deeply psychological and many including myself will tense when being watched, ESPECIALLY when your instructor is watching you directly. There can be an inherent need to please, get approval from, impress, show that you're strong etc, and perhaps the constant commentary that you need to relax is actually gnawing at you as you feel like you're being MORE watched than ever before, hence tensing to TRY HARD to relax.

I'm not sure if you struggle with this (tensing when feeling like you're being watched), but this is deeply psychological and you'll need to look into any core beliefs you have hanging around within yourself, whether it's related to fearing authority figures, needing approval, needing to 'appear strong' but really coming from an insecure place etc. The body does not lie, and tensions show up in response to how you hold yourself, which filter through core beliefs. 

I'm being direct and honest about this as I can sense your desperation.

Another thing is I noticed in your original post you wanted EXACT, PRECISE, SPECIFIC detail. This to me shows a little (or maybe more) perfectionism... and I think this may speak to the core of it... 

I may be very off the mark, but these are just some thoughts that I hope are helpful in some way. 

I came from a very very hard style of karate, and I had/have to unlearn a LOT of tension patterns, so I feel your struggle man. 

Another thing, I'd recommend stop comparing yourself to others bro! It'll just eat away at you in so many ways. We're all on our own individual, unique journeys and paths, this is yours. Own it, and see the gold that's in it for you. Doesn't matter if others have 'got it'. Chances are you've got great things others don't too!

But seriously, with all this stuff, one... step... at a time. Take a really nice deep breath. Like you've just walked for 1000 years straight, and finally get to take a load off and sit down. That sort of breath. Sink into that feeling of relaxation and learn to be with it. It may take time, but it will absolutely, without a doubt, be time incredibly well spent.


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## _Simon_ (Feb 28, 2021)

I'd also REALLY recommend checking out Hotton Sensei's videos, watch them all to be honest haha, as he speaks to moving karate from a rigid, tense, robotic art into a more natural, fluid, relaxed and free way of practicing. He is Shotokan too, but teaches alot from an aiki angle. His channel is below: 

https://youtube.com/channel/UCekOUbElva0WIWCkB14nOfA 

He's been a godsend to me haha.

You also mentioned earlier it's specific to kata, that's really interesting... perhaps because it's a whole routine that you have in mind, and that it must be a perfect presentation? But yeah connecting to your breathing and moving from your centre will be your best friend here. Shoulders down, eyes up, good posture, relaxing immediately after every technique, coordinating breath, and checking in every now and then with how your body's feeling, upper body getting tight: shaking your shoulders out. Karate should always start from a baseline of relaxation, everything comes FROM there, and returns to there.

And very importantly, incorporate really slow, quiet sessions at home. Ones where you're more listening and really being in tune with your body as you practice. Sessions do NOT have to be a slogfest where you destroy yourself or where you HAVE to be exhausted by the end of them.

More importantly, being more aware of how you carry yourself in everyday life will probably be of most benefit. What's your tension like through the day? At work/school? While you walk? Specifically when you're hanging out with people? When you're on your own? Let your everyday be a point of inquiry. And I don't mean getting obsessed and overly vigilant about scrutinizing yourself as that's not helpful haha, but let it be a gentle curiosity. Observe and be aware of it as it'll probably be pretty revealing.


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## Buka (Mar 1, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have considered it but I have seen plenty of people do kata without having a history of doing Tai Chi (or hell, half of the relaxation exercises I've been doing for the past several years).



"Considered it".....okay, and? 

Give it a try, bro, it won't hurt any, honest.

If you ever come to Maui, let me know. I believe it's a fairly easy fix.


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 1, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."   Your katas would look stiff and have the appearance of little to no power.
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...



Ok, first off, nice to see someone else from Quebec on this board.   Welcome.  In regards to your question, there can be a number of things going on as to why you are receiving this feedback from your Sensei.  I do Kyokushin so we have many of the same kata and have seen this problem from time to time.   Watching you do the kata would be the best way to give you proper feedback.   Based on what you said the issue is "relaxing upper body", I wonder if your stances are 'live' when you perform your katas.  If they are not, then your katas would have an appearance of having your upper body disconnected from your lower body which means that the power from your punches would appear to look as if they are coming strictly from your arms and shoulders. 

As many have already said, power comes from the ground up and it is the hips that is the conduit that connects your stance to your punches and blocks.   The issue could also be timing related or breathing related.   Your Sensei may also not wish to "spoon feed" you the answer so that you continue to polish your katas until you find your own answers. 

You can also seek the advice of a higher rank in your school to ask them for their feedback.   They will be able to watch you and perhaps give you the guidance you need to correct the issue.   Good luck.


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## punisher73 (Mar 1, 2021)

I am assuming that you already know how to "technically" perform all of the techniques.  By that, I mean you know how the body should move and work when throwing a technique.

One of the drills I used to have my students do when they were very stiff or trying to muscle everything.  Was to adapt a "tai chi" attitude with their kata.  Perform your kata very slow and relaxed.  Notice where you get tense when you move.  Analyze this, is the tension necessary to the movement?  For example, if I have my hands at my sides  and my arms are hanging naturally and I just lift my arm straight out to the front.  There should be no tension at all in the biceps or triceps, JUST the deltoid.  

Do this for the whole kata, move slowly, analyze any tension you feel.  Do NOT put in any "kime" at this point.  Eventually, when you can go through smoothly and without excess tension, add in the "kime".  At the point of impact, tighten your entire body and then immediately relax.  Analyze:  Are you tightening up before impact and putting the breaks on your technique?  After impact, are you keeping muscles tense that don't need to be?  You can also do the reverse of this (Sanchin if you know it), do a dynamic tension throughout and then after point of impact, relax completely after that.  Analyze if there is any tension.

It is a yin/yang thing of tension versus relaxation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Sounds like something a lot of people can use with the Pandemic stress going on.  I wonder how well classes on relaxation will do these days?


Calmness apps seem to be doing well. Unfortunately, I don't really know how to teach it absent the MA practice - what I know is tightly integrated into the way we practice NGA.


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## Acronym (Mar 9, 2021)

My best guess is that it's so ingrained into your muscle memory that you may need to change your mechanics entirely.

It can also be mental.


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## PhilE (Mar 10, 2021)

Lets say you are around 30.  You've been doing karate since you were 23.  You feel you should have learned to relax after 7 years, when it took you 23 years to become tense.  About 16 of those was when you were where a child, and most susceptible to the pre-programming of body misalignment.

This state of relaxation was something that yogis, monks would practice to attain for years, maybe even decades.

Maybe it was in the karate system once, I don't know.  But I'd make a guess that the internal element of karate has been omitted when it became more sports focused.  So modern karate may not help you to relax by itself.  Though of course the flow of endorphins from regular exercise, will always be a major source of health and happiness.

Tai Chi, Chi Gung, Iyengar Yoga (avoid any style of yoga where the teacher had had one month of training).  If you can afford it, try massage, acupuncture, osteopathy etc.  

Don't quit, there are forever going to be major obstacles in your training, that's training!


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## PhilE (Mar 10, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but don't professional fighters "muscle through" their techniques all the time?



No, a pro sportsperson would damage themselves with excess tension.

Have a read up on George Foreman, he describes the success of his comeback due to a release of nervous tension in his body.  

Think of relaxation as a cat about to strike, or Bruce Lee's 'whip,' concept.


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## Hanshi (Mar 13, 2021)

I found that in teaching aikido the most difficult thing for most students is to learn relaxation.  Meditation helps some but not others.  Perhaps you are confusion strength with power.  They are not the same thing although strength is one of the many components of power.  I tell students to think of their arms & legs as whips, not rigid weapons.  They are pliable until the moment of impact.  An oversimplification, yes, but an interesting way to visualize it.  Using strength and being "stiff" saps energy.  Remember, limbs pliable until the instant of _FOCUS_.  Other than that all I can think of is maybe trying grappling.  But you will always run into the same need to be relaxed and pliable.  It isn't physical, either; it's mental.


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## GodSpearCQB (Mar 15, 2021)

First of all real power generation that comes without effort (I.E. relaxed) comes from the use of sinew and not muscle, or at least not flexed muscle. In Liu He Mantis we have a concept called opposition. If you turn your torso all the opposite of your legs and hips to the point that it can go no further you will feel an elastic tendency to realign that is caused by muscles and tendons being loaded through wringing. Just like a rubber band. There are many exercises that can help you form that same opposition anywhere in the range of motion. Research Baji Quan, Bagua Zhang, Liu He Mantis and use the exercises in these arts to augment your speed and power generation. You will get your blackbelt and this information is all over youtube.  Here are some of the exercises  I do
Liu He, 7 Star, Mi Men, Ba Bu, Baji, Pigua, bagua montage Kung Fu


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## wab25 (Mar 15, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> Consider small steps first like practicing kata without the arms at all. Just let them dangle at your sides. Work on stepping properly with correct breathing. Remember there is a kinetic chain that occurs at the feet and legs and you are constantly tightening and relaxing the leg and core muscles just to get the stepping correct. Work on that first and cultivate the loose feeling in your arms and shoulders. You want to get used to that feeling and space so when you hunch your shoulders and tighten up your arms, you'll swiftly know mentally that you're in a bad posture again.





isshinryuronin said:


> Do your kata like one sings in the shower or alone in their car - uninhibited, uncaring how you look or sound. Go thru the moves without trying to impress anyone with your speed and power, especially yourself.





punisher73 said:


> Do this for the whole kata, move slowly, analyze any tension you feel. Do NOT put in any "kime" at this point. Eventually, when you can go through smoothly and without excess tension, add in the "kime".


Do these. Actually, go back and re-read these posts and try them. 

I have an "advantage" I have a very hard time memorizing sequences. So, when I learn a kata, I have to spend time just learning what moves to do in what order. So, I spend a lot of time outside of class literally just working on the order or sequence. Meaning, I practice them slow, and with no thought to any energy at all. If you were to put a video of me practicing this, it would be the worst kata you ever saw. Since I am focusing on the order, I am completely relaxed.

Once things open up, go to a mall or other location where there are lots of people. Try doing your kata there, without drawing any attention to your self. Make all the movements small, just barely enough to say, I was in the right pose. Here you have to stay relaxed... if you have tension, you will draw attention to your self.

Another approach is to make all the hits in your kata, pushes instead. Each push is pushing a cart with a bunch of balanced glassware on it. Make the blocks and punches into throws and joint locks. Work on making the transition from one move into the next as smooth as possible. Make it a dance. 

In class, you do it hard and fast. But your own practice... slow down, make it gentle. Add strength and speed into one part only. Try different parts. Try different timings. Do the hard parts soft and the soft parts hard. Play with it.


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 15, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> During my time as a student, many more talented people came into the dojo. After 35 years, none of them are still active. Only one O can recall ever made it to Shodan.



"Even a plodding buffalo can travel 1000 _li." _(miles.)    _Chinese proverb.

"_Slow is easy and easy is fast"  _SEAL proverb.  
_


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## _Simon_ (Mar 15, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Do these. Actually, go back and re-read these posts and try them.
> 
> I have an "advantage" I have a very hard time memorizing sequences. So, when I learn a kata, I have to spend time just learning what moves to do in what order. So, I spend a lot of time outside of class literally just working on the order or sequence. Meaning, I practice them slow, and with no thought to any energy at all. If you were to put a video of me practicing this, it would be the worst kata you ever saw. Since I am focusing on the order, I am completely relaxed.
> 
> ...


Yep I just reread those, very helpful for me! And well said.

I just wish the fellow would come back and let us know how he's going, hopefully he chimes in! If not, all these posts have been helpful for me anyway


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Do these. Actually, go back and re-read these posts and try them.
> 
> I have an "advantage" I have a very hard time memorizing sequences. So, when I learn a kata, I have to spend time just learning what moves to do in what order. So, I spend a lot of time outside of class literally just working on the order or sequence. Meaning, I practice them slow, and with no thought to any energy at all. If you were to put a video of me practicing this, it would be the worst kata you ever saw. Since I am focusing on the order, I am completely relaxed.
> 
> ...


I never thought about it, but I have this same advantage. When I put together my kata, I spent so much time doing exactly what you describe here - trying to remember the sequence to get to the next bit - that I had to ignore the intended energy for a time. Once I had them down(ish), I was able to start looking at the intended energy, and ended up learning to use different levels (maximum smoothness, maximum precision, maximum power, maximum distance, etc.).


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> "Even a plodding buffalo can travel 1000 _li." _(miles.)    _Chinese proverb.
> 
> "_Slow is easy and easy is fast"  _SEAL proverb.  _


From the long-time head of NGA: "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast."


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## Hanshi (Mar 17, 2021)

I've always been among the worst trying to memorize kata sequences.  It takes me much longer to learn a kata than many of my students.  And I forget them much too easily.  I have friends who seem to never forget any kata they learn.  Once I get a kata down, though, I've always done it very well.  But if I'm away for a few months they grow fuzzy in my mind.  Teachers often have the same problems, maybe even worse, that plague some students.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I am too tense.


I truly don't remember when was last time that I was tense when I did my form. It's so funny that I may forget how to be tense.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 18, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Yep I just reread those, very helpful for me! And well said.
> 
> I just wish the fellow would come back and let us know how he's going, hopefully he chimes in! If not, all these posts have been helpful for me anyway


The OP’s history shows that he never came back after the first day that he signed up and came on. 

I confess, I believe I unintentionally chased him off.  I have some videos on a YouTube channel that I cannot simply put up for general viewing, but I sometimes share them with people in the context of a private discussion.  I sent him a  PM and offered to send him a link to view the videos because I though he might find them helpful, but I needed his email address to send it to him.  His response was “nice try.”  And that was it.  He hasn’t been back since. 

I can only guess that he thought I was trying to pull some kind of scam with his email address.  I was completely caught by surprise by his response.  At any rate, I doubt he will be back.


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## _Simon_ (Mar 19, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> The OP’s history shows that he never came back after the first day that he signed up and came on.
> 
> I confess, I believe I unintentionally chased him off.  I have some videos on a YouTube channel that I cannot simply put up for general viewing, but I sometimes share them with people in the context of a private discussion.  I sent him a  PM and offered to send him a link to view the videos because I though he might find them helpful, but I needed his email address to send it to him.  His response was “nice try.”  And that was it.  He hasn’t been back since.
> 
> I can only guess that he thought I was trying to pull some kind of scam with his email address.  I was completely caught by surprise by his response.  At any rate, I doubt he will be back.


Ah that's a real shame... considering how helpful you were in this thread it's clear you weren't being dodgy, and rather nice of you to offer that to him. Considering how desperate he was I thought he'd jump at the chance. Yeah, hope he comes back anyway


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## Flying Crane (Mar 19, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah that's a real shame... considering how helpful you were in this thread it's clear you weren't being dodgy, and rather nice of you to offer that to him. Considering how desperate he was I thought he'd jump at the chance. Yeah, hope he comes back anyway


When I realized that he might be thinking I was trying to scam him I backed away from the offer and told him of course it is his decision, no worries if he isn’t interested.  I also told him that I’ve shared the videos with a couple other members here, and offered to identify them and he could contact them and verify.  No response.  Really took me by surprise.


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## Graywalker (Mar 19, 2021)

Relax your shoulders, 1st move, relax the shoulders, 2nd move relax the shoulders..3rd yup, relax the shoulders.

Think on every move, 'relax the shoulders'


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 17, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...


What would quitting do to remedy your problem??? Karate is not causing your problem. Maybe he should teach you how to relax, instead of telling you to do something you may not know how to do. Is your goal to get a black belt or to study life protection arts? 

Do this. Take a wet gi top, and hold it at the collar with your hands at a distance of 12 to 14 inches. Snap it as if you were trying to snap the excess water off of it. You will find that if you try this while you are tensed, you will not be able to snap the garment. You HAVE TO relax, in order to do this. Karate technique is to be executed in the same manner. If you hold on to this idea, you should be able to perform your kata. Just think that the end result is that you want to snap water out of an imaginary wet, heavy garment when doing the movements of your kata.


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## dvcochran (Aug 17, 2021)

Hanshi said:


> I've always been among the worst trying to memorize kata sequences.  It takes me much longer to learn a kata than many of my students.  And I forget them much too easily.  I have friends who seem to never forget any kata they learn.  Once I get a kata down, though, I've always done it very well.  But if I'm away for a few months they grow fuzzy in my mind.  Teachers often have the same problems, maybe even worse, that plague some students.


We definitely have some things in common. As I have gotten older Poomsae just do not stay with me like they used to.


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## Dlangly (Aug 17, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...



Are you kidding? This is a concern in Shotokan?
I've seen people win w/Kata and look like they're holding a grenade in their butt the entire time.

There are people who every flaw no matter how insignificant will show in their Kata, ask anyone 6+ foot tall.

Dan is the accrual of knowledge and experience, not perfection. Most people only start to learn any type of mastery after 1st Dan. 

Blackbelts are harder to teach than lower ranks because you know the basics, now I have to start with the hard/good stuff.

Don't put a lot of concern on ranks. There used just to be four at one point: White, Green, Brown, Black. Now I see, 10-12 Kyu Ranks, tips, stripes, lines, whatever. There's no formalized legal regulation or licensing in most places on who can be a Black Belt and what makes one. There was a program on Amazon at one point where they sent you a certificate as a 2nd Dan in some form of Shiren Ryu? and they just trusted people to study. In fact in some places on this planet if you have a "Black Belt" you have to register at the police department before being a tourist, it comes with extra burden of proof on your part.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 18, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> From the long-time head of NGA: "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast."





Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...


Look at this video. This is what you are missing out on by affirming that you cannot do something. He goes through different stages until he does it full power. When he does, pay attention to the sound of the room when his elbow hits his hand. Don't you want this? Do not put any limits on your self. It's not healthy in general to do so.


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## Patience (Dec 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> The OP’s history shows that he never came back after the first day that he signed up and came on.


I read this entire thread with interest and concluded that the OP simply wanted to have others tell him it's OK for him to be tense. He seemed intent that nothing could help him except that everyone else knew some quick and simple secret to relaxation that he isn't clued in on. There is no secret; some people are relaxed naturally without thinking about it; others have to work on relaxing consciously. I'm in the middle, and have known karateka on both ends of that spectrum. 

But surely he must be doing something (many things) right if his instructor has ranked him up to 1st kyu? I'm curious as to whether he continued with his practice, but I guess we'll never know.


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## Holmejr (Dec 1, 2021)

Quebecois2001 said:


> The problem is not on his end; it is on my end. And the problem isn't my knowledge of how to contract and relax; the problem is that nothing I do seems to please him.


Maybe he’s not a very good instructor. Or maybe he only wants to train what he considers prodigies. If he makes you feel terrible about your effort, then something is wrong. Not everyone is the same and not everyone comes around at the same speed. There is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism. I must also say the some take any constructive criticism very harshly. Maybe this is you, maybe not. In our art (Eskrido de Alcuizar) , even though we believe there is a better way and a not so better way, we look more for result than form. Not everybody is a Fred Astaire! It might take you until after your black belt to relax or maybe you will never relax, but so what. It’s about a personal expression of an art form. Who is the better artist MC Escher vs. Pablo Picasso?


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## drop bear (Dec 2, 2021)

Patience said:


> I read this entire thread with interest and concluded that the OP simply wanted to have others tell him it's OK for him to be tense. He seemed intent that nothing could help him except that everyone else knew some quick and simple secret to relaxation that he isn't clued in on. There is no secret; some people are relaxed naturally without thinking about it; others have to work on relaxing consciously. I'm in the middle, and have known karateka on both ends of that spectrum.
> 
> But surely he must be doing something (many things) right if his instructor has ranked him up to 1st kyu? I'm curious as to whether he continued with his practice, but I guess we'll never know.



I can't imagine tense is a deal breaker.


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2021)

I think this guy is just looking for confirmation bias. No matter what has been posted he has tried it to no avail.


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## minn8325 (Dec 2, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> The OP’s history shows that he never came back after the first day that he signed up and came on.
> 
> I confess, I believe I unintentionally chased him off.  I have some videos on a YouTube channel that I cannot simply put up for general viewing, but I sometimes share them with people in the context of a private discussion.  I sent him a  PM and offered to send him a link to view the videos because I though he might find them helpful, but I needed his email address to send it to him.  His response was “nice try.”  And that was it.  He hasn’t been back since.
> 
> I can only guess that he thought I was trying to pull some kind of scam with his email address.  I was completely caught by surprise by his response.  At any rate, I doubt he will be back.


This is single handed one of the most toxic self righteous places on the internet.  I would recommend you delete your account.  I deleted mine and I had to bring it because they kept sending my E.mails of all the awful, self righteous, and narcissistic comments I got regularly and today I wake up to this one.  

if I still new how I would crash the server just to make it stop.


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2021)

minn8325 said:


> This is single handed one of the most toxic self righteous places on the internet.  I would recommend you delete your account.  I deleted mine and I had to bring it because they kept sending my E.mails of all the awful, self righteous, and narcissistic comments I got regularly and today I wake up to this one.
> 
> if I still new how I would crash the server just to make it stop.


Deleted your account and yet you are here? Hmm???

It annoys people when others set up duplicate accounts under different names to come on here and rail against the truth just because they don't like hearing it. 
It is bad enough with certain first name regulars who spew toxic non-truths all the time. 

Didn't I just read you on the TKD reddit doing the same stuff?


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 3, 2021)

minn8325 said:


> This is single handed one of the most toxic self righteous places on the internet.  I would recommend you delete your account.  I deleted mine and I had to bring it because they kept sending my E.mails of all the awful, self righteous, and narcissistic comments I got regularly and today I wake up to this one.
> 
> if I still new how I would crash the server just to make it stop.


Still better than MySpace.

The best time to relax is Friday.  Because Saturday night is for fighting.


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## gspell68 (Jan 2, 2022)

Hanshi said:


> I've always been among the worst trying to memorize kata sequences.  It takes me much longer to learn a kata than many of my students.  And I forget them much too easily.  I have friends who seem to never forget any kata they learn.  Once I get a kata down, though, I've always done it very well.  But if I'm away for a few months they grow fuzzy in my mind.  Teachers often have the same problems, maybe even worse, that plague some students.


I find this to be an issue, too.
A lot of my problems actually stem from muscle memory.
Like the elbow strike to an open palm move, I always wanna follow through with the double down block from near the end of Bassai, for one.
There’s probably a dozen others.

It doesn’t help that I took up Seibukan for a couple of years while stationed in a Shotokan desert, so that’s a whole ‘nother set of kata moves rattling around in my head.


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## Darren (Aug 17, 2022)

Quebecois2001 said:


> I have been doing Karate for 7 years (currently in WKF Shotokan, 1st kyu brown belt, training in Canada). My sensei keeps telling me to relax my upper body and use my legs/hips for power. However, no matter how much I consciously try to do this, he keeps telling me I am too tense. I have been trying so hard for the past two years or so to relax my upper body and generate power purely from my legs/hips. I have reached a point that where I am trying so hard to relax that when I do kata, every technique I do causes my upper body to wobble and gyrate around like crazy. It almost looks like I'm drunk because of how much I'm trying to relax myself. But my sensei keeps telling me to relax even more, and at that point I don't even know what to do. I do not have any physical issues, as I am completely able to perform plyometric exercises of the legs/hips while simultaneously relaxing my upper body. But when it comes to doing any kata, it's like all of that goes out the window because sensei keep telling me "relax your shoulders."
> 
> I've tried stretching, I've tried strengthening my stances, I've tried abdominal exercises, I've tried kime exercises, I've tried contracting my lats, but to no avail; sense keeps telling me "you're too tense."
> 
> ...


Try training in a swimming pool with your whole body in the water up to your neck, get in a horse stance and do your training with your arms only.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 17, 2022)

Darren said:


> get in a horse stance and do your training with your arms only.


Power comes from body and not comes from arm. Freeze your body and only punch with your arm is a bad idea.

This is bad.





This is good.


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## Darren (Aug 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Power comes from body and not comes from arm. Freeze your body and only punch with your arm is a bad idea.
> 
> This is bad.
> 
> ...


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## Darren (Aug 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Power comes from body and not comes from arm. Freeze your body and only punch with your arm is a bad idea.
> 
> This is bad.
> 
> ...


You are correct, but when first starting is what I am referring to, in kenpo we do Star block, upward block,inward block, outward block, downward block, backward elbow strike, push down block, then using both hands and arms we do it again, somewhat different then the above mentioned block-strikes, a block is a strike and a strike is a block. All while standing in a horse stance, that is why I take a 15 pound weight and do Star block in a horse stance to build arm strength. This is all done while your a white belt after white belt we start using the hips and body with block-strike formula. Hope I have explained it well, if not please ask me to clarify it! Thank you and have a wonderful day!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 18, 2022)

Darren said:


> This is all done while your a white belt after white belt we start using the hips and body with block-strike formula.


Many MA styles take this approach. The concern is when a beginner has developed a habbit of "frozen body and only move arm", it may take some extra efford to remove that habit later on. Whether this extra beginner training stage is needed or not is strongly debatable. Some MA systems prefer their beginners to do right (such as body push/pull limb) even during the beginner training stage.


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## Darren (Aug 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many MA styles take this approach. The concern is when a beginner has developed a habbit of "frozen body and only move arm", it may take some extra efford to remove that habit later on. Whether this extra beginner training stage is needed or not is strongly debatable. Some MA systems prefer their beginners to do right (such as body push/pull limb) even during the beginner training stage.


There is a yellow belt form(ya start out at white belt yet your working for your yellow belt, no white belt forms) that comes to mind it’s called defecting hammer that teaches you to push backwards with your right front foot while doing a downward swinging block all at the same time defecting the kick then teaches you to spring forward on the left leg and foot using body mass then striking the opponents face with your elbow while checking with the left hand.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 18, 2022)

Darren said:


> There is a yellow belt form(ya start out at white belt yet your working for your yellow belt, no white belt forms) that comes to mind it’s called defecting hammer that teaches you to push backwards with your right front foot while doing a downward swinging block all at the same time defecting the kick then teaches you to spring forward on the left leg and foot using body mass then striking the opponents face with your elbow while checking with the left hand.


In advance training, you try to coordinate

- hand and foot.
- elbow and knee.
- shoulder and hip.

But if you start this training when you are beginner, you may progress much faster.

The funnist thing is if you have already reached to the advance level training (understand body push/pull limb), when you cross train a new MA style, you has to start from "freeze the body and only move the arm", you may feel frustrated about it. This had happened to me. This is why I'm interested in this discussion subject.


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## Darren (Aug 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In advance training, you try to coordinate
> 
> - hand and foot.
> - elbow and knee.
> ...


It was 27 years ago that I was working on my third degree brown belt in kenpo, got back into it  one year ago and a few days, started out again as a white belt which is fine with me cause I get to relearn and reinforce what I have already learned!!!  Remember my first time sparring I froze up and got caught with a spinning hook kick right in my nose dropped to my knees like a ton of bricks so very feel ya(know what you are talking about) two things though very funny that people that have taken the arts before will get back into it, and I very agree that you can leave the arts but it really never leaves you!!! And keep giving good advice!!!  Thank you!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 18, 2022)

Darren said:


> You are correct, but when first starting is what I am referring to, in kenpo we do Star block, upward block,inward block, outward block, downward block, backward elbow strike, push down block, then using both hands and arms we do it again, somewhat different then the above mentioned block-strikes, a block is a strike and a strike is a block. All while standing in a horse stance, that is why I take a 15 pound weight and do Star block in a horse stance to build arm strength. This is all done while your a white belt after white belt we start using the hips and body with block-strike formula. Hope I have explained it well, if not please ask me to clarify it! Thank you and have a wonderful day!!!


Strength training is a good thing, but needs to be done as a separate item and not coupled with martial arts training.  Trying to kill two birds with one stone in that way is not a good approach because it will teach the student to tense up and inhibit the ability to relax.  The topic of this thread being how to relax the upper body when doing karate.

As KFW has said, and I agree, learning to connect the full body when delivering technique is paramount in learning to relax the upper body.  Most of the work and effort ought to be done with the legs; The arms and shoulders are relaxed and ride along, acting as the delivery component of the punch, for example.

Loading up the arms with weights while practicing karate techniques creates the habit of muscling though the technique and undermines the full-body connection.  There are methods of practice that can build a very useful and functional strength in martial training, and that is the practice with realistically weighted weapons.  Doing so prevents you from cheating on your technique and forces you to get your body connection correct.  Trying to muscle through with heavy weapons, without body connection, just makes you tired very quickly.  But if you get the body connection correct you avoid that quick exhaustion, and then the weight of the weapons will build a functional strength in a natural progression.  This assumes, of course, that one has received quality training with the weapon. 

But straight up strength training should not be coupled with martial technique practice.


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## Darren (Aug 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Strength training is a good thing, but needs to be done as a separate item and not coupled with martial arts training.  Trying to kill two birds with one stone in that way is not a good approach because it will teach the student to tense up and inhibit the ability to relax.  The topic of this thread being how to relax the upper body when doing karate.
> 
> As KFW has said, and I agree, learning to connect the full body when delivering technique is paramount in learning to relax the upper body.  Most of the work and effort ought to be done with the legs; The arms and shoulders are relaxed and ride along, acting as the delivery component of the punch, for example.
> 
> ...


Is it ok to do it only with only Star block? Only do it once in three months 10 times only then put the weight away then do my punches as fast as I can for 20 times, get most of my strength training from taking care of my 130 pound 24/7 special needs son so stay away from strength training as much as I can cause of him.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 19, 2022)

Darren said:


> Is it ok to do it only with only Star block? Only do it once in three months 10 times only then put the weight away then do my punches as fast as I can for 20 times, get most of my strength training from taking care of my 130 pound 24/7 special needs son so stay away from strength training as much as I can cause of him.


What you are doing then is taking a martial drill and turning it into a strength training drill, which is not the same thing even though strength is typically an asset in martial training.  

As a martial drill, there is more to three-star blocking than just swinging the arms.  There is the engagement of the lower body, using the legs and feet to drive the torso into a rotation, which is what gives power to the swinging arms.  But the arms and shoulders themselves should be quite relaxed.  Not floppy like Gumby, but relaxed while strong.  Using the exercise specifically to build arm and shoulder strength separates the movement from the work that should be done by the legs and torso.  It undermines the very purpose of the exercise.  On some level it can still be effective, but is unlikely to ever reach its true potential, and you will always be simply working harder to get there and you will miss the process of understanding the efficiency that the underlying method is meant to build, which should be foundational to the entire system, not just the exercise of three-star blocking. 

If this all sounds foreign to you, I will say that in my opinion, the instruction found in a lot of schools tends to skip over these details because the teachers do not understand it or at least lack a systematic methodology for teaching it and helping their students develop that understanding.  At some point in their lineage and transmission, that particular understanding was lacking and did not get adequately passed to the next generation.  Once the knowledge gap has formed, it is very unlikely that people will simply figure it out for themselves without a good teacher who can step in and help them understand it. 

Your comment about then doing punches as fast as you can further highlights the issue.  I have never seen you train and I don’t know your teacher so cannot directly comment on how you are doing things.  But the comment makes me suspect that there are foundational issues you are missing.  The point isn’t to throw punches as fast as you can as an exercise.  That same work that should be done by the legs and torso that I mentioned above, should be engaged in throwing punches as well.  Speed comes later.  First, you need to develop the foundation, understand the role that the legs and torso play when you throw a technique, which is something that the three-star drill is meant to emphasize and reinforce.  Throw punches with that full-body connection, develop solid technique that is powerful without being tense and without “muscling” it.  Later you can develop speed.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Strength training is a good thing, but needs to be done as a separate item and not coupled with martial arts training.  Trying to kill two birds with one stone in that way is not a good approach because it will teach the student to tense up and inhibit the ability to relax.  The topic of this thread being how to relax the upper body when doing karate.
> 
> As KFW has said, and I agree, learning to connect the full body when delivering technique is paramount in learning to relax the upper body.  Most of the work and effort ought to be done with the legs; The arms and shoulders are relaxed and ride along, acting as the delivery component of the punch, for example.
> 
> ...


There are forms of strength training which help reinforce proper movement patterns for martial arts. For example, the Turkish getup is excellent for BJJ practitioners because it not only builds strength but it also helps develop proper body alignment and coordination for certain fundamental movements we use a lot. Likewise, kettlebell swings help teach correct power generation for certain types of takedowns.

It's also possible to devise drills for a martial arts class which build functional strength and technique at the same time. (Honestly, I think technique is a big part of functional strength.) For example, I might pair up students and have one partner start on their knees inside the other partners closed guard. The drill is for the top student to come up to standing while the bottom student continues holding on with their legs. Then once the top student is standing, the bottom student has to do a sit up, supporting themself with their legs around their partners waist. Then the top student has to lower themself (with control) back to a kneeling position. It's a drill which gets tiring pretty quickly, but it builds proper technique as much as it does strength.

That said, I mostly don't focus on strength training during the classes I teach, because it takes enough time and work getting students to move as efficiently as possible and not waste their strength unnecessarily. I have encountered coaches who take the approach of making workouts so physically demanding that you run out of strength to waste halfway through and you have to start discovering more efficient ways to move and generate power. It does seem to work, but a) it usually requires a longer workout time and b) it's harder to implement in a class with students who have a wide range of physical capacity. The coaches who took this approach were mostly working with professional and amateur fighters. I was a relatively fit hobbyist and I just barely made it through the training sessions. A brand new with no athletic background would probably have just collapsed halfway through and never come back.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 19, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There are forms of strength training which help reinforce proper movement patterns for martial arts. For example, the Turkish getup is excellent for BJJ practitioners because it not only builds strength but it also helps develop proper body alignment and coordination for certain fundamental movements we use a lot. Likewise, kettlebell swings help teach correct power generation for certain types of takedowns.
> 
> It's also possible to devise drills for a martial arts class which build functional strength and technique at the same time. (Honestly, I think technique is a big part of functional strength.) For example, I might pair up students and have one partner start on their knees inside the other partners closed guard. The drill is for the top student to come up to standing while the bottom student continues holding on with their legs. Then once the top student is standing, the bottom student has to do a sit up, supporting themself with their legs around their partners waist. Then the top student has to lower themself (with control) back to a kneeling position. It's a drill which gets tiring pretty quickly, but it builds proper technique as much as it does strength.
> 
> That said, I mostly don't focus on strength training during the classes I teach, because it takes enough time and work getting students to move as efficiently as possible and not waste their strength unnecessarily. I have encountered coaches who take the approach of making workouts so physically demanding that you run out of strength to waste halfway through and you have to start discovering more efficient ways to move and generate power. It does seem to work, but a) it usually requires a longer workout time and b) it's harder to implement in a class with students who have a wide range of physical capacity. The coaches who took this approach were mostly working with professional and amateur fighters. I was a relatively fit hobbyist and I just barely made it through the training sessions. A brand new with no athletic background would probably have just collapsed halfway through and never come back.


I think the bottom line is that proper training should be building appropriate strength that is useful within the context of the martial art, usually without the need to add a bunch of weights in the process.  In some ways, small amounts of weight can be used effectively as an enhancement.  

I won’t speak to the drills and exercises found in grappling methods, as I simply have no expertise in that realm.  What the previous poster was describing seemed to me to illustrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of the drill he was doing, and how to go about it in an effective way.  Where weights can be effectively added to the training process should, in my opinion, come later, after a solid understanding of the methodology is in place.  Then, he would be in a position to recognize what are good decisions and bad decisions if he considers adding the weights.  With this kind of drill it is my opinion that it is very easy to overdo the weight and destroy the benefits that the drill is meant to create.


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## Darren (Aug 19, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What you are doing then is taking a martial drill and turning it into a strength training drill, which is not the same thing even though strength is typically an asset in martial training.
> 
> As a martial drill, there is more to three-star blocking than just swinging the arms.  There is the engagement of the lower body, using the legs and feet to drive the torso into a rotation, which is what gives power to the swinging arms.  But the arms and shoulders themselves should be quite relaxed.  Not floppy like Gumby, but relaxed while strong.  Using the exercise specifically to build arm and shoulder strength separates the movement from the work that should be done by the legs and torso.  It undermines the very purpose of the exercise.  On some level it can still be effective, but is unlikely to ever reach its true potential, and you will always be simply working harder to get there and you will miss the process of understanding the efficiency that the underlying method is meant to build, which should be foundational to the entire system, not just the exercise of three-star blocking.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Love knowledge!! I concur on using the hips and legs in addition to the punch’s!!!


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## Darren (Aug 20, 2022)

Darren said:


> Thank you! Love knowledge!! I concur on using the hips and legs in addition to the punch’s!!!


Looked up the three Star block and know what you mean one can’t use weights with that!!  But love the flow of it just excellent!!!  If I may ask what does it mean?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2022)

Darren said:


> Looked up the three Star block and know what you mean one can’t use weights with that!!  But love the flow of it just excellent!!!  If I may ask what does it mean?


I am assuming this question is directed to me?  If so, I am not sure I understand what you are asking, “what does it mean?”

And in hindsight, I realize you were making reference to something different in kenpo, not the same thing as three star block.  I need to acknowledge that, but at the same time feel that my comments are still appropriate.  The drill is meant to develop clean technique which should still have connection to the legs and foundation.  Adding weights to it has a real danger, in my opinion, of causing you to actually separate the movement of the arms from the legs, and turn it into an arms-only movement that comes to rely overly-much on muscular strength.   Once you develop the targeted skill, then perhaps you could very gradually add small amounts of weight, so long as you are very careful to not create that separation and end up undermining the whole concept.  I think it could be very easy to overdo the weights and make that mistake.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 20, 2022)

Darren said:


> three Star block


The "upward block" should be llike to raise a curtain and you move under it. The important is your body move in under the curtain. Since it takes very little effort to raise that curtain, to use weight to train blocking has no meaning.

When you do "inward/outward block", you should rotate your body and "freeze" your arm (the relationship between your arm and your body remain unchange). This way, even your arm may miss to block a punch, your body has already moved out of the way.

Can you do the following moves by putting your arms behind your back and just let your body to do the job - body raise, body sink, rotate to the left, rotate to the right, ...? You will then understand the term "body method" (You can only see body movement. You don't see arm movement).


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## Darren (Aug 20, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I am assuming this question is directed to me?  If so, I am not sure I understand what you are asking, “what does it mean?”
> 
> And in hindsight, I realize you were making reference to something different in kenpo, not the same thing as three star block.  I need to acknowledge that, but at the same time feel that my comments are still appropriate.  The drill is meant to develop clean technique which should still have connection to the legs and foundation.  Adding weights to it has a real danger, in my opinion, of causing you to actually separate the movement of the arms from the legs, and turn it into an arms-only movement that comes to rely overly-much on muscular strength.   Once you develop the targeted skill, then perhaps you could very gradually add small amounts of weight, so long as you are very careful to not create that separation and end up undermining the whole concept.  I think it could be very easy to overdo the weights and make that mistake.


Yes sir, your comments are appropriate from the question I asked I can see I have a long way to go in asking questions intelligently in regards to the martial arts thank you for that! And in the beginning stage it is not at all recommended to use weights till one finds the flow and really have the drill down as you have said and using weights you are correct it can hurt the flow of the drill as your arms are tensed up automatically if used to much and to often. If I may ask again what style of the arts uses the three star block? As I can then read and study about it. Thank you.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 21, 2022)

Darren said:


> Yes sir, your comments are appropriate from the question I asked I can see I have a long way to go in asking questions intelligently in regards to the martial arts thank you for that! And in the beginning stage it is not at all recommended to use weights till one finds the flow and really have the drill down as you have said and using weights you are correct it can hurt the flow of the drill as your arms are tensed up automatically if used to much and to often. If I may ask again what style of the arts uses the three star block? As I can then read and study about it. Thank you.


Three-star block is common in many of the southern Chinese long-arm systems like Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Tibetan White Crane, I suspect Jow Ga as well.  It is a two-person drill used to condition the forearms for impact, as well as full-body connection. 

Here is an example:  https://m.facebook.com/OmahaKungFu/...ge-and-working-on-three-of-/1155535127989505/


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## Darren (Aug 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Three-star block is common in many of the southern Chinese long-arm systems like Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Tibetan White Crane, I suspect Jow Ga as well.  It is a two-person drill used to condition the forearms for impact, as well as full-body connection.
> 
> Here is an example:  https://m.facebook.com/OmahaKungFu/...ge-and-working-on-three-of-/1155535127989505/


Thank you sir! Love the way the hips,body,legs,feet rotate together to produce power!! And a very good way to condition the forearms for impact!!!  Way back when in 1993 my dojo had a Chinese wooden dummy that I used to do the same, train by myself which gives me the idea I can train using my door frames to do the same. Thank you!!


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## Darren (Aug 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Three-star block is common in many of the southern Chinese long-arm systems like Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Tibetan White Crane, I suspect Jow Ga as well.  It is a two-person drill used to condition the forearms for impact, as well as full-body connection.
> 
> Here is an example:  https://m.facebook.com/OmahaKungFu/...ge-and-working-on-three-of-/1155535127989505/


And the way you described the the three arm block and what it does is what I meant when I said what does it mean.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What you are doing then is taking a martial drill and turning it into a strength training drill, which is not the same thing even though strength is typically an asset in martial training.
> 
> As a martial drill, there is more to three-star blocking than just swinging the arms.  There is the engagement of the lower body, using the legs and feet to drive the torso into a rotation, which is what gives power to the swinging arms.  But the arms and shoulders themselves should be quite relaxed.  Not floppy like Gumby, but relaxed while strong.  Using the exercise specifically to build arm and shoulder strength separates the movement from the work that should be done by the legs and torso.  It undermines the very purpose of the exercise.  On some level it can still be effective, but is unlikely to ever reach its true potential, and you will always be simply working harder to get there and you will miss the process of understanding the efficiency that the underlying method is meant to build, which should be foundational to the entire system, not just the exercise of three-star blocking.
> 
> ...


Well described, I wholeheartedly agree with this approach.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 21, 2022)

Darren said:


> Yes sir, your comments are appropriate from the question I asked I can see I have a long way to go in asking questions intelligently in regards to the martial arts thank you for that! And in the beginning stage it is not at all recommended to use weights till one finds the flow and really have the drill down as you have said and using weights you are correct it can hurt the flow of the drill as your arms are tensed up automatically if used to much and to often. If I may ask again what style of the arts uses the three star block? As I can then read and study about it. Thank you.


Remember these maxims; the bottom moves the top, the back moves the front, the inside moves the outside, the weighted side moves the unweighted side, the breath rides the motion.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 21, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Three-star block is common in many of the southern Chinese long-arm systems like Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Tibetan White Crane, I suspect Jow Ga as well.  It is a two-person drill used to condition the forearms for impact, as well as full-body connection.
> 
> Here is an example:  https://m.facebook.com/OmahaKungFu/...ge-and-working-on-three-of-/1155535127989505/


This Hung Gar guy in the video can move. He is really quite entertaining. Have you seen his renaming series? Hilarious.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 21, 2022)

Darren said:


> Thank you sir! Love the way the hips,body,legs,feet rotate together to produce power!! And a very good way to condition the forearms for impact!!!  Way back when in 1993 my dojo had a Chinese wooden dummy that I used to do the same, train by myself which gives me the idea I can train using my door frames to do the same. Thank you!!


We do it while moving the horse also.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 21, 2022)

Darren said:


> And the way you described the the three arm block and what it does is what I meant when I said what does it mean.


Last, but not least is “feel your bunghole on top of your head!” I know it sounds like a joke but it isn’t. My Sigung James Wing Woo used to say it.


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## Buka (Aug 21, 2022)

Next time one of these types of threads includes "or should I give up Karate altogether?"

We should all just say yes just for ships and giggles.


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## Darren (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Last, but not least is “feel your bunghole on top of your head!” I know it sounds like a joke but it isn’t. My Sigung James Wing Woo used to say it.


Getting hit in that spot does not feel very good!!!!!


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## Darren (Aug 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We do it while moving the horse also.


Having the mildest form of cerebral palsy there is I use the horse stance to strengthen my legs while doing my upper body training plus have very bad health inner ear problems. Use my technique’s to work on my lower leg strength.


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## Darren (Aug 23, 2022)

One n


Buka said:


> Next time one of these types of threads includes "or should I give up Karate altogether?"
> 
> We should all just say yes just for ships and giggle


One does never knows what that person has been through!! It could be taken as a negative and that person has to dig there self out of a hole for the rest of there days!!!  Is this what this place is about???


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Darren said:


> One n
> 
> One does never knows what that person has been through!! It could be taken as a negative and that person has to dig there self out of a hole for the rest of there days!!!  Is this what this place is about???


He was just joking. Buka is gentle and highly respected.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Darren said:


> Getting hit in that spot does not feel very good!!!!!


It means lift the insides like a kegel exercise.


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## Buka (Aug 23, 2022)

Darren said:


> One n
> 
> One does never knows what that person has been through!! It could be taken as a negative and that person has to dig there self out of a hole for the rest of there days!!!  Is this what this place is about???


No, it’s just me, not the place.

Martial Arts isn’t for everyone, it’s a tough racket.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2022)

Buka said:


> Martial Arts isn’t for everyone, it’s a tough racket.


Agree with you 100%.

A: Dear master! Being thrown on the ground is so painful. Should I give up the throwing art?
B: May be the throwing art is not for you. Why don't you try different MA system?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2022)

I have to agree with the previous couple of posts.  That is sometimes the issue that does not get discussed because our society wants to make everyone feel included.  Part of that drive is to support a business model where nobody wants to turn down a client/revenue source.  So suggesting that “this just might not be for you” is kinda seen as a dirty word.  

The truth of the matter is, everyone ought to be welcome to give it a try.  But it requires a hell of a lot of really hard work, on an ongoing basis and no end in sight.  The road never ends, you don’t reach a finish line.  No single style is the best for everyone, so people are welcome to try something else and see if it is a better fit for them.  No single teacher is the best for everyone, so people are welcome to try a different teacher either within the same system or in a different one.  And of course different people have different reasons for training, and they can search for a school that helps them meet their needs. 

But at the end of the day, martial arts isn’t for everyone.  Not everyone wants to put in the hard work.  Not everyone’s body can tolerate that strain, not everyone’s mental constitution will tolerate it.  Some people simply ought to do something else.  But they need to figure that out for themselves.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 23, 2022)

Buka said:


> Martial Arts isn’t for everyone, it’s a tough racket.


While this is true for many endeavors, MA is definitely one of the tougher ones.  Not only is mental dedication required, but it's physically demanding as well.  Add to that the risk of injury and willingness to accept some pain along the way, you have an activity that's not for everyone.  Especially, there's little or no monetary pay-off.  There is also the time commitment - for some, a lifetime. It's an activity that challenges you on several levels.  The plus side is that it's an activity that benefits you on many levels.  It's a life game changer for sure.

EDIT:  Just saw Flying Crane's post preceding mine (don't know how I missed it).  Many of the same ideas.  It seems the older, experience vets are of a like mind.  We've been there, done that, and are still doing it.  And appreciate what we do all the more.


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## Darren (Aug 23, 2022)

Very sorry


Wing Woo Gar said:


> He was just joking. Buka is gentle and highly respected.


 Very sorry then! Just know how it feels to be made fun of!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I have to agree with the previous couple of posts.  That is sometimes the issue that does not get discussed because our society wants to make everyone feel included.  Part of that drive is to support a business model where nobody wants to turn down a client/revenue source.  So suggesting that “this just might not be for you” is kinda seen as a dirty word.
> 
> The truth of the matter is, everyone ought to be welcome to give it a try.  But it requires a hell of a lot of really hard work, on an ongoing basis and no end in sight.  The road never ends, you don’t reach a finish line.  No single style is the best for everyone, so people are welcome to try something else and see if it is a better fit for them.  No single teacher is the best for everyone, so people are welcome to try a different teacher either within the same system or in a different one.  And of course different people have different reasons for training, and they can search for a school that helps them meet their needs.
> 
> But at the end of the day, martial arts isn’t for everyone.  Not everyone wants to put in the hard work.  Not everyone’s body can tolerate that strain, not everyone’s mental constitution will tolerate it.  Some people simply ought to do something else.  But they need to figure that out for themselves.


Man, you said it brother! Absolutely true. My Sifu would go farther, “Are you going to quit? Then just quit and get it over with!” Unfortunately for everyone, we can’t all be the president or astronauts. Fortunately for me, I did not grow up with participation trophies.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 23, 2022)

Darren said:


> Very sorry
> 
> Very sorry then! Just know how it feels to be made fun of!


No need for apology, I’m somehow sure that @Buka can take it. It’s hard to read the feeling behind text in here. We have all been in arguments only to find out that we misread the intent of the post. It’s all good.


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## Darren (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Man, you said it brother! Absolutely true. My Sifu would go farther, “Are you going to quit? Then just quit and get it over with!” Unfortunately for everyone, we can’t all be the president or astronauts. Fortunately for me, I did not grow up with participation trophies.


I would say if you can’t train in 68 degree temperature and don’t sweat like it’s Noah’s flood then you not working hard enough and it’s not for you, the place I train at now is not air conditioned just a bunch of fans blowing hot air around training in at least 100 degree temperature if your not willing to train in that kind of heat then ya just wasting your time! Take care of a 24/7 special needs son so have to get up at 4:45am to make it to class at 9:00am. But I  love training, the only hard part about it is getting started!!


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## Darren (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> No need for apology, I’m somehow sure that @Buka can take it. It’s hard to read the feeling behind text in here. We have all been in arguments only to find out that we misread the intent of the post. It’s all good.


Thank you sir.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 24, 2022)

Darren said:


> I would say if you can’t train in 68 degree temperature and don’t sweat like it’s Noah’s flood then you not working hard enough and it’s not for you, the place I train at now is not air conditioned just a bunch of fans blowing hot air around training in at least 100 degree temperature if your not willing to train in that kind of heat then ya just wasting your time! Take care of a 24/7 special needs son so have to get up at 4:45am to make it to class at 9:00am. But I  love training, the only hard part about it is getting started!!


Holy cow! I’m spoiled!  Good work brother!


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## Darren (Aug 24, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Holy cow! I’m spoiled!  Good work brother!


Thank you. But there is a very heavy heavy price to pay for it!!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Power comes from body and not comes from arm. Freeze your body and only punch with your arm is a bad idea.



I find a good clip that shows body push/pull arm. In this, you can only see the body movement. You don't see the arm movement.

This MA system does not have the beginner level training - freeze body and only move arm. May be he should also include the footwork.


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