# How Rank is Handled in the Bujinkan.



## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 10, 2007)

Based on another thread I thought I would (and was politely asked) to start a thread regarding how rank in the Bujinkan is handled.

Personally for myself I avoided rank for a long, long, long time.  To me it was more about my growth and still is.  Having said that rank in the Bujinkan is handled differently than many other arts.

A.  Sometimes very little emphasis is placed on it
B.  Sometimes you receive a rank so that you can grow into it
C.  Rank does not always mean that you are the most skilled (though it certainly can)
D.  What is really important is that you grow as a Budoka and that your rank is your own personal issue and not anyone else's

Note that the above is just some of my personal opinons!

Hopefully that can get us started and I will let some other's place their views on the ranking structure in the Bujinkan.


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## Tengu6 (Jan 10, 2007)

Lets add a few more:

E. Rank is a personal structure between the individual student and the teacher. 

F. The reasons for anothers rank may not be readily understandable to others, and needn't be (See E.).

Markk Bush
www.bujinmag.com


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 10, 2007)

Last time I had the opportunity to test for new rank I was sitting in a small room with no windows waiting for the police to come and pick up my catch of the day. The time before that I chose not to attend.


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## bencole (Jan 10, 2007)

In another thread, Fallen Ninja asserted that: "I'm know I'm going to get trashed on this... but doesn't anyone else feel that he is a bit young to be a 15th Dan?" and then added the comment "It just seems like we give out rank for no reason. I know other arts that some never reach Nidan but in ours after Shodan..."

In my opinion, this is the single largest issue for people who become disenfranchised with the Bujinkan. And it is an issue that comes up again and again and again and again.

SeattleTCJ posted a retort, saying:



			
				SeattleTCJ said:
			
		

> His confusion about rank is understandable. Most people see grades being a reflection of skill. You earn a doctorate in college by demonstrating advanced skill in your field. Not by earning the friendship of your professors, or by demonstrating other random qualities. You must be able to apply your skill at the highest levels in order to reach the higher levels. So, IMO a reasonable question, and reasonable confusion by Fallen ninja.


 
I believe that any instructor or institution who provides grades does so under the following premise, best summarized by Paul Dressel:

*"A grade is an inadequate report of an inaccurate judgment by a biased and variable judge of the extent to which a student has achieved an undefined level of mastery of an unknown proportion of an indefinite material."*

Unless you are taking mathematics, which has only "one right answer" (assuming you set aside implicit presumptions that you are using real numbers to solve the equation), almost every single grade (be it in "strategy" or "sociology" or "martial arts") falls under Dressel's definition. To pretend otherwise is simply simple-minded.

There is simply no way for SeattleTCJ to "pass" a test that I give him, but he may easily pass a test that his teacher gives him. Is it because I am a "bully"? Or because what we both look for is different? I proffer the latter. And this is precisely what Soke has empowered *EVERY* Shidoshi worldwide to determine individually.

If you cannot live with the fact that your teacher's grades cannot be compared to my grades, then you are in the wrong art. Period.

As I have stated, there are only three grades that can be "compared"--the Godan, the Judan and Jugodan. The Godan means that your teacher feels that you have the proper body and heart to sit the Godan test and be "touched" by Soke; Soke trusts that judgment and then tests whether the student actually has the proper body and heart. The Judan means that three other Judan or higher feel that you have the proper body and heart to be called a Judan. Soke (usually) trusts that judgment. The Jugodan means that Soke sees something special in you that others do not possess. If you consider the Bujinkan teachings as a puzzle, these puzzle pieces are scattered throughout the world in various bodies and hearts. It is your job as a student to seek out those pieces. Only these three levels have quantifiable requirements; everything else is a personal assessment by an imperfect teacher of how the teacher believes the person has progressed since last subjectively determining to make the assessment. And history is on the side of those who agree with this assessment of everything else, seeing how that is how Budo has *ALWAYS* been graded.

I will add one final point, because I cannot retort the comment on the original thread as per the mod's request. SeattleTCJ suggested that "As far as being bullied.....to say someone deserves to be hit in the jaw for asking what you see to be a naive question, is a bully tactic Ben."

I answered Fallen Ninja's original question without "bullying," but Fallen Ninja clearly was unwilling to chew on what we being written. 

Instead, he quickly followed with these gems (reminiscent of high school chatter, or the idiot foreigner who shows up at Hombu that resident Don Roley is always banging his head about):

"I just think it is so confusing and embarressing when we try and promote our art and show videos just for those that don't know to mock us and say it doesn't look real."
"The world expects to see old gray men with high ranks... not 30 yr. olds that hold a judan."
"I know a lot of people that will not train because our art to them looks watered down and slow."
Had Fallen Ninja said such things after a senior student in Japan took the time to explain what he should be considering important, there would be two reactions, depending on who was instructing. 

Some instructors would just roll their eyes and ignore the individual for a few weeks. Online, this type of "social distancing" is obviously difficult to show and for the oblivious to become aware of.... 

Other instructors would request that the individual punch for a technique. Immediately, that individual would be knocked to the floor and told to keep training until he understood what was important. 

My teachers have been of the latter type.

And seeing how I learned this art in Japan, I tend to take their perspective on learning (and getting through thick skulls...mine included).

Hope that clarifies....

-ben


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## Fallen Ninja (Jan 10, 2007)

I believe many feel that there should be a standard of competency with each rank given. Not given because someone makes more trips to Japan, he deserves more rank. If thats the case it would be the equivelent of purchasing rank. Spending money to achieve rank. I know many that every time they go to Japan they come back with a new rank. Has their taijutsu improved...? I know of someone who just recieved his 9th Dan and was told the next time he goes back to Japan he will become a Shihan. Why? Because he spent $2000 to make a trip?
I don't think people really care if their art rank is equal to other arts... but I do think they place importance on their rank being equal to someone else's in the same art. If that is the case we could essentially have a 10th Kyu who refuses to rank... better than a 10th Dan who makes his bi-annual trip to Japan every year. Right?
Then we start heated discussions about someone not having Menkyo Kaiden or not recieving more than a 5th Dan (Robert Bussey, Ralph Severe, Stephen Hayes, Shoto Tanemura, etc.) when we proclaim that rank has nothing to do with skill. Its about a relationship?:mst: 
So because I am closer to my teacher I can have a higher rank than someone who is twice as good as I am? That is wrong on so many levels! By rights there are many that out rank now Tanemura Soke... are they better than he is?
You may think this is a juvenial way of seeing things but this is the world. There is comparisons in everything we do. If we could get past the comic book version of seeing things (bananas vs. oranges) we can see that this reality. Let's get granular here people!:tantrum:


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## Carol (Jan 10, 2007)

Ranks over 5th black in nearly any ranked art are political.


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## Seattletcj (Jan 10, 2007)

bencole said:


> Other instructors would request that the individual punch for a technique. Immediately, that individual would be knocked to the floor and told to keep training until he understood what was important.
> 
> My teachers have been of the latter type.
> 
> ...



Interesting teaching model. Maybe its just its a cultural thing I couldnt understand. You know, knocking an inquisitive student to the floor when he says he does not understand how the ranking works. :whip1:

I found a clip of your training group Ben. It looks pretty hardcore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juKj5Ek24Xc&mode=related&search=


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## mrhnau (Jan 10, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Ranks over 5th black in nearly any ranked art are political.



More so in the Bujinkan, from my understanding. The 5th Dan test is one of the only ranking with strident conditions (that I am aware of). You also can open your own dojo. The ranking per visit is a bit silly though...

Is this similar in other arts? I personally like a bit more stringent conditions. I'd like to know that someone is better in skill as they progress in rank.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 10, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> Not given because someone makes more trips to Japan, he deserves more rank. If thats the case it would be the equivelent of purchasing rank.


 
In a way, perhaps. However, going to Japan does indicate at least a moderate amount of dedication to training. I'm not saying I approve of this method, because I don't.



Fallen Ninja said:


> Then we start heated discussions about someone not having Menkyo Kaiden or not recieving more than a 5th Dan (Robert Bussey, Ralph Severe, Stephen Hayes, Shoto Tanemura, etc.) when we proclaim that rank has nothing to do with skill. Its about a relationship?:mst:
> So because I am closer to my teacher I can have a higher rank than someone who is twice as good as I am? That is wrong on so many levels!


 
You're misinterpreting stuff here.



Fallen Ninja said:


> You may think this is a juvenial way of seeing things but this is the world. There is comparisons in everything we do. If we could get past the comic book version of seeing things (bananas vs. oranges) we can see that this reality. Let's get granular here people!:tantrum:


 
This is your way of looking at the world. 
I know people who don't travel to Japan regularly whom I'd seek out much sooner than frequent Japan visitors, should my aim be to learn how to handle myself.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 10, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> Interesting teaching model. Maybe its just its a cultural thing I couldnt understand. You know, knocking an inquisitive student to the floor when he says he does not understand how the ranking works. :whip1:


 
There were a few more parameters Ben set up in order for that to happen, rather than just claiming not to understand something.


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## Tenguru (Jan 10, 2007)

bencole said:


> ...
> Other instructors would request that the individual punch for a technique. Immediately, that individual would be knocked to the floor and told to keep training until he understood what was important.
> ...
> -ben



Ha!  At least give the STUDENT a chance to defend himself/herself ....  An INSTRUCTOR having his/her student "punch in" with a telegraphed, choreagraphed attack in order to be intentionally "knocked to the floor" in order to be taught a lesson sounds cowardly and lame.

I am sure you were joking. Right?


Bwahahahahahahahahaha!


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## Tenguru (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm not proud to admit this, but I have pissed off several instructors in various martial arts in my younger years.  The ones that decided to "teach me a lesson" would either have me step into a ring, step on the mat, etc. .... they would let me know it was "on".  Never have I had a teacher get angry, and then tell me to "punch in" so they could unleash their martial fury.  

Bwahahahahahahahaha!


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## Kreth (Jan 11, 2007)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth/Jeff Velten
-MT Senior Moderator


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## Bigshadow (Jan 11, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> I'm not proud to admit this, but I have pissed off several instructors in various martial arts in my younger years.  The ones that decided to "teach me a lesson" would either have me step into a ring, step on the mat, etc. .... they would let me know it was "on".  Never have I had a teacher get angry, and then tell me to "punch in" so they could unleash their martial fury.
> 
> Bwahahahahahahahaha!



I think you have misunderstood what Ben was saying.


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## KageMusha (Jan 11, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I think you have misunderstood what Ben was saying.



I read it the same way.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 11, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> Ha! At least give the STUDENT a chance to defend himself/herself .... An INSTRUCTOR having his/her student "punch in" with a telegraphed, choreagraphed attack in order to be intentionally "knocked to the floor" in order to be taught a lesson sounds cowardly and lame.


 
Perhaps the student in question hasn't been respectful enough to be given a fair chance to fight back. 

Personally, I can spar with my instructor any time I feel like it after the session's over. In fact we have a new guy who does that after each training.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 11, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> Then we start heated discussions about someone *not having Menkyo Kaiden or not recieving more than a 5th Dan* (Robert Bussey, Ralph Severe, Stephen Hayes, *Shoto Tanemura*, etc.) when we proclaim that rank has nothing to do with skill. Its about a relationship?:mst:
> So because I am closer to my teacher I can have a higher rank than someone who is twice as good as I am? That is wrong on so many levels! *By rights there are many that out rank now Tanemura Soke... are they better than he is?
> *


 
Hello,

I just wanted to make a quick note here for clairity. It is not my intention to start any arguments here, but there are some mistakes in the quoted text. I would like to clear these up for the sake of correct information.

While in the bujinkan Tanemura Sensei had the rank of 9th dan and vice president at a time when ranks stopped at 9th dan (10th being the next grandmaster).

In addition, he held menkyo kaiden in many of the arts Mr. Hatsumi was Soke of.

Since he left 23 years ago, he has been awarded menkyo kaiden and Soke in various ryu ha. He has had many teachers since being in the bujinkan, Sato kinbei, Kimura Sensei, Fukamoto Sensei etc. He is still training with Suzuki Sensei and Nagao Sensei from whom he received menkyo in Daito Ryu and mugen Shinto Ryu Iai.

So these are some examples. There are more...

I hope that helps shed some light on this subject concerning Tanemura Sensei.

Carry on.. 

Sincerely,


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## stephen (Jan 11, 2007)

bencole said:


> I believe that any instructor or institution who provides grades does so under the following premise, best summarized by Paul Dressel:
> 
> *"A grade is an inadequate report of an inaccurate judgment by a biased and variable judge of the extent to which a student has achieved an undefined level of mastery of an unknown proportion of an indefinite material."*




 If I may add to Ben's excellent comment:

This may not apply to any of those in this current discussion, but it's a common thread I've seen run through the many, many discussions I've witnessed or heard on this topic. Usually, I might add, with people in the Bujinkan. 

It seems many people crave the comfort of having some parental figure 'put them in their place'. I think the need for this is easily demonstrated, just look at the multitude of laws on the books that are simply intended to 'keep us from hurting ourselves' and tell us what is good/bad or right/wrong. 

Martial Arts are no different; clearly they are made up of a subset of the same people and thus probably will have similar traits. 

People crave being told where to go, what to do, who to train with. It's all so much easier that way! 

I find that those who are so concerned about rank tend to exhibit two qualities: 

1. They often talk about how under-ranked they are compared to others.  And talk about it CONSTANTLY. You know the kind -  "LOOK! Did you SEE how HUMBLE I AM!?" This is usually followed up with, "I was offered an 87th dan, but I turned it down for my 4th kyu, do you see how HUMBLE that makes me!" Whatever. You get one or the other, take the rank or shut up. You don't get to brag about both. 

2. Then tend to be the most *ahem* 'cultish' people in the Bujinkan. "Everyone else doesn't get it, except for MY teacher, who turns down rank all the time and doesnt train with Soke because he ranks people incorrectly/has gone soft/doesn't train correctly."


I believe that Soke is trying to make it obvious. He doesnt allow people to even pretend that there is a "true" ranking system. He tells everyone that they're on their own and gives them proof. Because, honestly, as Ben's quote states, it really would be just 'pretend' otherwise. 

What if there were a curriculum? What then? Then it would just be, "Well, my dojo is really hard-core - so I REALLY know omote-gyaku!" Whatever.

At least this way uses rank to teach a very powerful lesson, maybe one of the most important:

*Think for yourself! 

Use your own eyes!

If you screw up, it's YOUR fault!*


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## bencole (Jan 11, 2007)

stephen said:


> What if there were a curriculum? What then? Then it would just be, "Well, my dojo is really hard-core - so I REALLY know omote-gyaku!" Whatever.
> 
> At least this way uses rank to teach a very powerful lesson, maybe one of the most important:
> 
> ...


 

Precisely! Thank you soooooooooooo much for posting this. Granted, we're still going to see someone pipe in with how "everyone wants to be compared" or "evaluations should be objective" and so on.

Please take time to re-read Stephen's comment. Chew on it. And then swallow it. Then digest it. Excrete it. And use it to grow some nice flowers! LOL!   Cradle to grave that baby!



			
				Tenguru said:
			
		

> Never have I had a teacher get angry, and then tell me to "punch in" so they could unleash their martial fury.


 
Me, neither. I'd leave such a teacher in a second, as I would expect most would....

In Japan, the teacher is a care-giver. If you give of yourself, they will give of themselves. A knock on the head is a "love tap," where I come from, not some violent attack to get out some anger. (shake head)

Some teachers "love" certain students more than others, because those students need that love.  In time, the student's edges become rounded. There is actually a phrase for this in Japanese: "maruku naru" (it means literally "to become round"). 

It's like when you get married. Initially, you voice opinions because you can voice opinions. Over time, you learn that a glance can accomplish the same thing. Moreover, over time, you discover that things about which you used to want to voice opinions simply do not elicit the same feelings anymore. 

This is the same learning process, and does not entail any sort of "bullying because the teacher is mean." A good thump on the head because a student has completely ignored previous advice and still thinks that his way is better is deserved in my opinion. 

Your mileage may vary.

-ben


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## Tenguru (Jan 11, 2007)

bencole said:


> ...
> In Japan, the teacher is a care-giver. If you give of yourself, they will give of themselves. A knock on the head is a "love tap," where I come from, not some violent attack to get out some anger. (shake head)
> 
> Some teachers "love" certain students more than others, because those students need that love.  In time, the student's edges become rounded. There is actually a phrase for this in Japanese: "maruku naru" (it means literally "to become round").
> ...



Thanks for the clarification.  Your explanation seems reasonable (to me).  I feel slightly relieved.  

Regarding ranks, how many judans and jugodans are there?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 11, 2007)

stephen said:


> It seems many people crave the comfort of having some parental figure 'put them in their place'. I think the need for this is easily demonstrated, just look at the multitude of laws on the books that are simply intended to 'keep us from hurting ourselves' and tell us what is good/bad or right/wrong.
> 
> Martial Arts are no different; clearly they are made up of a subset of the same people and thus probably will have similar traits.
> 
> People crave being told where to go, what to do, who to train with. It's all so much easier that way!


 
Personally, I get nervous if I don't hear complaints in a while. I know of a person with third or fourth dan who's a beginner's instructor, has been training probably since the end of the 1990's, and who is visibly not aware of the fact that bending your back is wrong. Nobody is ever going to let him in on that in his current place (due to what they call an "open-minded" attitude towards training). That is someone I don't want to end up being compared to.



stephen said:


> I find that those who are so concerned about rank tend to exhibit two qualities:
> 
> 1. They often talk about how under-ranked they are compared to others. And talk about it CONSTANTLY. You know the kind - "LOOK! Did you SEE how HUMBLE I AM!?" This is usually followed up with, "I was offered an 87th dan, but I turned it down for my 4th kyu, do you see how HUMBLE that makes me!" Whatever. You get one or the other, take the rank or shut up. You don't get to brag about both.


 
I've never encountered these two qualities in one and the same person. We have someone at our place with fourth dan who's been training since the end of the 80's, went to Japan earlier this year and chose not to try the sakki test. You'll be hard-pressed to find people less concerned about rank. 



stephen said:


> 2. Then tend to be the most *ahem* 'cultish' people in the Bujinkan. "Everyone else doesn't get it, except for MY teacher, who turns down rank all the time and doesnt train with Soke because he ranks people incorrectly/has gone soft/doesn't train correctly."


 
I know of such people, though I wouldn't label them cultish in regards to the Bujinkan, since they're probably already on their way out of said organization. The cultish people in the Bujinkan tend to be those who train with Soke and a couple of other shihan and talk about what they're doing in class as "real fighting".


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## saru1968 (Jan 11, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> Hello,
> 
> I just wanted to make a quick note here for clairity. It is not my intention to start any arguments here, but there are some mistakes in the quoted text. I would like to clear these up for the sake of correct information.
> 
> ...


 

No point really as the subjective matter is 'Bujinkan Ranking' of which many outrank him now, skill level is another thing.

Best not to get too defensive for no good reason.

:barf:


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 11, 2007)

saru1968 said:


> No point really as the subjective matter is 'Bujinkan Ranking' of which many outrank him now, skill level is another thing.
> 
> Best not to get too defensive for no good reason.


 
No no.. I'm sorry if you took it as me being defensive. I truly was not. I understand the subject of the thread, and appologize for in any way causing thread drift.

If you look at the text that I quoted, you will see that it said that Tanemura Sensei did not have menkyo kaiden or go pass 5th dan.



> Then we start heated discussions about someone *not having Menkyo Kaiden or not recieving more than a 5th Dan* (Robert Bussey, Ralph Severe, Stephen Hayes, *Shoto Tanemura*, etc.)


 

This was an inaccurate statement, I simply wanted to give the proper information. Often times people see things on the internet and then it becomes "fact". I hope you can understand my position and intention.

It is very true that many outrank him in terms of Bujinkan grade. 

In any event, I hope you can now understand why I wrote what I wrote. Again, I appologize to everyone enjoying this thread for any thread drift, please see it for what it is and lets move on.

Sincerely,


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## rutherford (Jan 11, 2007)

mrhnau said:


> More so in the Bujinkan, from my understanding. The 5th Dan test is one of the only ranking with strident conditions (that I am aware of). You also can open your own dojo. The ranking per visit is a bit silly though...



To clarify, you can reach Godan and not ask for license to teach.

On the other hand you can also apply as shidoshi-ho, or run a training group long before.

Do you personally know of anybody who receives rank on every visit to Japan?


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## mrhnau (Jan 11, 2007)

rutherford said:


> To clarify, you can reach Godan and not ask for license to teach.
> 
> On the other hand you can also apply as shidoshi-ho, or run a training group long before.


Thanks for the clarification 



> Do you personally know of anybody who receives rank on every visit to Japan?


Those I -do- know that travel to Japan don't go that frequently, so a promotion per visit is not all that unreasonable. I'm assuming, based on conversations I've heard here, that people are getting ranks more rapidly. IRL I don't know all that many in BBT, and most of those don't travel on a regular basis, so I'm not the expert on the topic


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## bencole (Jan 11, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> This was an inaccurate statement, I simply wanted to give the proper information. Often times people see things on the internet and then it becomes "fact". I hope you can understand my position and intention.


 
I think it is important to point out errors in your comment then....

You wrote, "While in the bujinkan Tanemura Sensei had the rank of 9th dan and vice president at a time when ranks stopped at 9th dan (10th being the next grandmaster)."

This is untrue. Hatsumi-sensei had discussed the issue of 15th dans as early as 1983 *BEFORE* Tanemura left.

Moreover, you are clearly not the first one to imply that ranks are meaningless today but somehow they were meaningful "back in the day." Steve Hayes, Alex Mordine, Wayne Roy and Brian McCarthy all use this tact. Highlighting Tanemura's "9th dan" as meaningful is simply silly--about a silly as someone complaining that someone is too young to be a 15th dan.  

Moreover, in light of the comments in this thread about *WHY* people are given certain levels within the Bujinkan, to point out that Tanemura was "vice president" but to *NOT* point out that he was also Hatsumi-sensei's cousin (by marriage) is a bit misleading, in my opinion. Wouldn't you agree? 



			
				makoto-dojo said:
			
		

> It is very true that many outrank him in terms of Bujinkan grade.


 
And skill....  Anyone with "the eyes to see" can see that.... 

Remember the point of this thread: rank reflects a personal journey and should not be equated with skill or compared across individuals. 

Get the eyes. Carefully evaluate your teachers. Train with them because of what they can do and what they can teach you. Do *NOT* train with them because they have a lot of certificates on the wall.

Cheers!

-ben


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## bencole (Jan 11, 2007)

mrhnau said:


> I'm assuming, based on conversations I've heard here, that people are getting ranks more rapidly. IRL I don't know all that many in BBT, and most of those don't travel on a regular basis, so I'm not the expert on the topic


 
Then why comment on it?

If you do not know what you are talking about, and you are assuming based on conversations that you've read on the internet, then what business do you have actually feeding the misperception beast?

Sounds like you need a knock in the head, too....

Anyone else?

-ben


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## Tenguru (Jan 11, 2007)

If bujinkan ranks do not uniformly imply a relative standing or position, why make the ranks known?  If it really is just a personal barometer, do you even need to know "so-in-so's" rank?  Wouldn't it make more sense to just say "this person is a Shidoshi/Shihan and this person is not" or "This person was granted Menkyo Kaiden (sp?)", and leave it at that.

Just curious.


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## Kreth (Jan 11, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> If bujinkan ranks do not uniformly imply a relative standing or position, why make the ranks known?  If it really is just a personal barometer, do you even need to know "so-in-so's" rank?  Wouldn't it make more sense to just say "this person is a Shidoshi/Shihan and this person is not" or "This person was granted Menkyo Kaiden (sp?)", and leave it at that.
> 
> Just curious.


Well, it's tough to build your own private Ninja Empire without advertising rank.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 11, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Well, it's tough to build your own private Ninja Empire without advertising rank.


 
How true! :rofl:


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## Tenguru (Jan 11, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Well, it's tough to build your own private Ninja Empire without advertising rank.



Are you saying it comes down to $$$?


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## Dale Seago (Jan 11, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> If bujinkan ranks do not uniformly imply a relative standing or position, why make the ranks known? If it really is just a personal barometer, do you even need to know "so-in-so's" rank? Wouldn't it make more sense to just say "this person is a Shidoshi/Shihan and this person is not" or "This person was granted Menkyo Kaiden (sp?)", and leave it at that.



That's how I always handled it until I got whacked with a 15th dan -- never listed my actual rank on my website. The only reason that changed is because I got "outed" by someone on a couple of martial-art forums before I even got back from Japan, so there was no longer any point. . .


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## Tenguru (Jan 11, 2007)

Dale Seago said:


> That's how I always handled it until I got whacked with a 15th dan -- never listed my actual rank on my website. The only reason that changed is because I got "outed" by someone on a couple of martial-art forums before I even got back from Japan, so there was no longer any point. . .



My hat is off to you.  
"Respect!" as some of the young people say ... LOL


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## rutherford (Jan 11, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> If bujinkan ranks do not uniformly imply a relative standing or position, why make the ranks known?



Dale is only the second Bujinkan poster on MT of whose rank I am aware.

I was surprised one day to find my Bujinkan instructor was 2 ranks higher than I had thought.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 11, 2007)

I mention Mine, but only to show my lack of knowlage, cuz I dont even have my shodan yet.​


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## bencole (Jan 11, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> If bujinkan ranks do not uniformly imply a relative standing or position, why make the ranks known? If it really is just a personal barometer, do you even need to know "so-in-so's" rank? Wouldn't it make more sense to just say "this person is a Shidoshi/Shihan and this person is not" or "This person was granted Menkyo Kaiden (sp?)", and leave it at that.


 
I do. Only Soke and myself know my rank.

Even when I am asked to teach seminars, the advertising flyer says simply, "Benjamin Cole, Shidoshi"

In the past, I have had sponsors request to place my rank on the flyers. They explained that, "Unfortunately, people become more interested in attending when they see big numbers, rather than small numbers." 

My answer has always been: "I am not interested in teaching people who will only come because they see a big number. If that means fewer people in attendance, and subsequently less money, so be it. The 'right people' will still be there."

They always are.... 

-ben


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## Seattletcj (Jan 11, 2007)

What do you say to the fact that a high percentage of BJK websites advertise the rank of the instructor though ? It dosent seem that they are aware that their ranks are not to be used as a method of measurement. 
Do you consider this immoral or just naive, that they  (a high percentage of instructors) dont even understand the ranking system themselves  ?


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## Dale Seago (Jan 11, 2007)

More often naive than immoral, I suspect.


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## bencole (Jan 11, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> What do you say to the fact that a high percentage of BJK websites advertise the rank of the instructor though ?


 
Is it "advertising" or just placing information about themselves on their website?

If it is meaningful to a person that her/his teacher believes that s/he has achieved a level of improvement over numerous previous such evaluation times, then is is "bad" for that person to show publicly that the assessment is meaningful?

It was very meaningful to *MY TEACHER* (and thusly me) when Soke first ranked me. The rank told my teacher that his own assessments were generally correct and that he was teaching in a way that even Soke recognized as providing a field for growing.

Certainly, most people would agree that the assessment of certain people can be more meaningful than the assessment of other people. It means a lot to me when Mr. ABC provides me with a positive assessment of my accomplishments than when Mr. ZYX does.

I wouldn't consider that "advertising," personally, but maybe you would....



			
				Seattletcj said:
			
		

> It dosent seem that they are aware that their ranks are not to be used as a method of measurement.


 
Perhaps, they do. Perhaps, they don't. 

Perhaps just the ones that have websites do.... 

I know quite a few Shidoshi who have no website and do not display their ranks. I know many, many Shidoshi who share my perspective that any student who wants to train with them solely because of the size of their number on their certificate should be swiftly shown to the door. Many Shidoshi go through tremendous pains to only let the "right students" stick around. I include Soke in this grouping as well. 



			
				Seattletcj said:
			
		

> Do you consider this immoral or just naive, that they (a high percentage of instructors) dont even understand the ranking system themselves ?


 
I would argue that a high percentage of Shidoshi do *NOT* even have a website, but that's just my opinion based on nothing more than my own personal rolodex of people I know and how darn difficult it is to find them when my batteries go dead on my Palm. LOL! 

As to your question about naivety, this is why it is very important for people to train regularly in Japan. People need to get knocked around a bit for asking stupid question and thinking stupid things. Over time, their views start to change.

Granted, it sounds like a lot of you folks here are concerned with these darn trips to Japan and how people come back with ranks. LOL! (shake head)

Like I said, get exposure to the "right people" and all these petty questions just seem to disappear.

-ben


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## bencole (Jan 11, 2007)

Dale Seago said:


> More often naive than immoral, I suspect.



In all fairness to those with little familarity with Japan, and thus a greater naivety regarding the meaning of rank emanating from Japan, I turn to one of my favorite authors on cultural differences, Edward T. Hall.

*"A high context (HC) communication or message is one in which most of the information is already in the person, while very little is in the coded, explicit, transmitted part of the message. A low context (LC) communication is just the opposite; i.e., the mass of the information is vested in the explicit code."*

Unfortunately for us all, as Americans, we are low context. This means that we seek explication on everything and desire the message (i.e., the rank) to carry all necessary information. 

The Japanese, however, are high context. This means that very little information is embedded within the message. This is because they have been exposed over and over again to the message in other forms, such that the message itself carries little information.

This is why exposure to the Japanese (and naturally trips to Japan will do this for you  ) is so important. Without understanding the Japanese way of contextualizing information, you can never have a "Japanese heart." Without an understanding of the Japanese heart, you can never understand Soke or his actions.

Make the trips. Don't get bogged down on your low context view of the world. Go higher!  You'll be much happier in the Bujinkan if you are willing to do this.

Cheers!

-ben


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 11, 2007)

Dale Seago said:


> That's how I always handled it until I got whacked with a 15th dan -- never listed my actual rank on my website. The only reason that changed is because I got "outed" by someone on a couple of martial-art forums before I even got back from Japan, so there was no longer any point. . .


 


bencole said:


> Is it "advertising" or just placing information about themselves on their website?
> 
> If it is meaningful to a person that her/his teacher believes that s/he has achieved a level of improvement over numerous previous such evaluation times, then is is "bad" for that person to show publicly that the assessment is meaningful?
> 
> ...


 
This thread is very, very, very interesting and so far entertaining and enlightening. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Really whether you keep you rank hidden or it is out in the open is not I believe what is important.  What is important is that you push your ego to the side and train and continue to train and improve.  That is the bottom line.  Do not get caught up in rank in any means as it will not help you *in the moment* so to speak!  In other words in a self defense and combative martial art rank is just a piece of paper that will not help you at all when you are attacked in this world.  Try not to place to much emphasis on it or in turn let it place it's own hold on you.  If you are a Jugodan then you had better train and train hard (and smart) and if you are not then you had better train and train hard (and smart) because otherwise you may get a rude surprise someday.


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## Seattletcj (Jan 11, 2007)

bencole said:


> This is why exposure to the Japanese (and naturally trips to Japan will do this for you  ) is so important. Without understanding the Japanese way of contextualizing information, you can never have a "Japanese heart." Without an understanding of the Japanese heart, you can never understand Soke or his actions.
> 
> -ben



I disagree (as usual, right  ). I would not say that your view of Japan is really all inclusive. It may be more appropriate to differentiate between 'Japanese', and Japanese Bujinkan.
Judo, Karate, Aikido, and other koryu are far more popular then Bujinkan in Japan. Even catch wrestling, boxing, shooto, mma, and kickboxing are more popular in Japan then Bujinkan. The first 3 systems which are taught from grade school up have belt rankings based on some sort of standards.
I've heard Judo is the second largest sport practiced worldwide behind soccer. And thats a Japanese tradition.

To ignore this would be inappropriate when discussing the 'Japanese heart'.
You would be ignoring the Japanese people in large part, IMO.

You may be correct if you are talking about historical Japanese culture and literature. Its romantic, but not necessarily the reality of the present Japanese majority.


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## Carol (Jan 11, 2007)

Popularity does not equate to adherence to traditions.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 11, 2007)

bencole said:


> This is the same learning process, and does not entail any sort of "bullying because the teacher is mean." A good thump on the head because a student has completely ignored previous advice and still thinks that his way is better is deserved in my opinion.
> 
> Your mileage may vary.
> 
> -ben



THAT is exactly how I took your initial comment... but maybe becuase you did it to me at that seminar every time I didnt do what you told me to.  So I understood where you were coming from.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 11, 2007)

Dale Seago said:


> That's how I always handled it until I got whacked with a 15th dan -- never listed my actual rank on my website. The only reason that changed is because I got "outed" by someone on a couple of martial-art forums before I even got back from Japan, so there was no longer any point. . .




Dale et al,

My Condolences, oh I mean my congratulations, oh I mean boy do I understand what you mean on a smaller scale that is. Someone gives you rank or title and then others are surprised when you say, I still have to train or work on personal continued performance and improvement. 

Thanks for sharing.


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## Tenguru (Jan 12, 2007)

bencole said:


> In all fairness to those with little familarity with Japan, and thus a greater naivety regarding the meaning of rank emanating from Japan, I turn to one of my favorite authors
> ...
> -ben



Even Japanese people are a little suspicious of 30 year old 15th dans.  AFAIK, the kyu-dan grading system was created by a Japanese man named Dr. Jigoro Kano.  There are definite minimum requirements for Kodokan dan ranking.  It seems like Soke Hatsumi is the one deviating from the traditional Japanese dan ranking system by playing very loose and flexible with the way he awards dan grades.  So I'm a little bothered by you saying that it is just lack of context due to being an American with little exposure to Japanese culture.  Soke Hatsumi's ideas on ranking are very different from most traditional Japanese arts.

Am I being negative about the ranking system?  No.  I am saying that I understand how it may raise some peoples eyebrows, so to speak.


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## Tenguru (Jan 12, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This thread is very, very, very interesting and so far entertaining and enlightening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Preach on, brother!  I totally agree with you.


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## Dale Seago (Jan 12, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Someone gives you rank or title and then others are surprised when you say, I still have to train or work on personal continued performance and improvement.



That looks like a superb expression of the idea that the meaning of rank is personal.

I remember someone mentioning to me at the '99 Daikomyosai (Kukishin ryu) training in Japan that Soke really wanted to see the Judan+ instructors wearing their "Electric Persimmon" Bujin uniform patches. So I wore mine. I know because I just went back and looked at part of the Daikomyosai video for that year. But I think I only wore it for the first day, and I've never worn it -- at home or abroad -- since then.

The way my rank finally ended up getting written into my website FAQ, since everybody always wants to know an instructor's rank and my cover was already blown, was:



> *Q: What is his current rank?*
> *A: *  Hatsumi sensei promoted Dale to 15th dan at the end of November, 2005              after 22 years of training. Dale remains a dedicated student.


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## Tenguru (Jan 12, 2007)

Dale Seago said:


> That looks like a superb expression of the idea that the meaning of rank is personal.
> 
> I remember someone mentioning to me at the '99 Daikomyosai (Kukishin ryu) training in Japan that Soke really wanted to see the Judan+ instructors wearing their "Electric Persimmon" Bujin uniform patches. So I wore mine. I know because I just went back and looked at part of the Daikomyosai video for that year. But I think I only wore it for the first day, and I've never worn it -- at home or abroad -- since then.
> 
> The way my rank finally ended up getting written into my website FAQ, since everybody always wants to know an instructor's rank and my cover was already blown, was:



The tone and content of Dale's posts represent the Bujinkan very positively. I think you are an asset to the organization.  Ok ... back to the topic at hand.


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## Carol (Jan 12, 2007)

Dale you have such an extensive professional resume, your rank is irrelevant.

Ultimately, it is the student's decision as to whether that school and that instructor is right for them.  Rank has nothing to do with it.  

However, for someone like me that momentarily explored Bujinkan schools...I didn't find one that was lead by an instructor such as yourself.  The one that was closest to the place where I commute to is a school where the instructor's only professional applications of his training are his teaching.  

That's not a bad thing.   

However, Bujinkan schools isn't quite like, say, Kempo, where I have two 10th degree Grandmasters within a 2 mile radius of my home.  The Buj schools are a bit sparse, and many require a bit of a drive.   

The instructors that share their rank on their website are at least showing that the school isn't run someone simply calling himself a Ninja.


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## Tenguru (Jan 12, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> The instructors that share their rank on their website are at least showing that the school isn't run someone simply calling himself a Ninja.



That's an excellent point.  Regardless of why or how you earned your rank, the fact that you have it shows that you have "paid" your dues and the organization has recognized your efforts.


----------



## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2007)

mrhnau said:


> More so in the Bujinkan, from my understanding. The 5th Dan test is one of the only ranking with strident conditions (that I am aware of). You also can open your own dojo. The ranking per visit is a bit silly though...
> 
> Is this similar in other arts? I personally like a bit more stringent conditions. I'd like to know that someone is better in skill as they progress in rank.


I think all ranks in most systems have a large political/social element, even if they supposedly have specific grading criteria.  It's simply a reflection of the human side of the equation...  Even efforts to quantify and structure promotional processes still leave a lot of subjective grading criteria.  I've been taught in a system that seldom stressed rank; most lessons were taught to everyone, and very few were limited to black belts or advanced black belts.  There were elements that were directed at black belts (usually), and there were things taught at black belt levels with (I believe) the intent that the black belt be able to assimilate it more quickly, and then share it with his or her students.  (Didn't always work.)  

For a long time, promotion within the black belt ranks was the sole province of the chief instructor; sometimes, it seemed as if his criteria was simply getting a list from the association secretary -- other times, some people were promoted to a target position and others ignored.  Don't know... It was his call, not mine.  I haven't personally felt like playing the "rank game" for a while...  I let the people whom I have trained and the people who I respect and who respect me speak for me, if that makes sense.


----------



## stephen (Jan 12, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> Even Japanese people are a little suspicious of 30 year old 15th dans.  AFAIK, the kyu-dan grading system was created by a Japanese man named Dr. Jigoro Kano.  There are definite minimum requirements for Kodokan dan ranking.  It seems like Soke Hatsumi is the one deviating from the traditional Japanese dan ranking system by playing very loose and flexible with the way he awards dan grades.  So I'm a little bothered by you saying that it is just lack of context due to being an American with little exposure to Japanese culture.  Soke Hatsumi's ideas on ranking are very different from most traditional Japanese arts.
> 
> Am I being negative about the ranking system?  No.  I am saying that I understand how it may raise some peoples eyebrows, so to speak.



 Maybe this is the case with the relatively new kyu/dan system. Wasnt it the case with the older menkyo system that menkyo kaiden and the like were often issued to the very young (students in their late teens/low 20s)? 

  One could then take the 15 dan ranks and arbitrarily divide them thusly:
  1st dan - Shoden
  5th dan - Chuden
  10th dan - Okuden
  15th dan - Menkyo Kaiden

  Interesting.....Starting to look more old school to me. 

  Also, Ive heard one of the senior Japanese shihan make a comment somewhat like, Rank is like your age; at the age of 15 a young man was given a sword and sent into battle. 

  Was that 15 year old boy at the height of his lifelong martial skill? Probably not, but the point I took away was that he was now on his own. If he was killed, it was his fault as the teacher had taught him all he knew. 

  I guess, when I think about it, I tend to see of all the ranks in this manner.


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## Dale Seago (Jan 12, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> Even Japanese people are a little suspicious of 30 year old 15th dans. AFAIK, the kyu-dan grading system was created by a Japanese man named Dr. Jigoro Kano. There are definite minimum requirements for Kodokan dan ranking. It seems like Soke Hatsumi is the one deviating from the traditional Japanese dan ranking system by playing very loose and flexible with the way he awards dan grades. So I'm a little bothered by you saying that it is just lack of context due to being an American with little exposure to Japanese culture. Soke Hatsumi's ideas on ranking are very different from most traditional Japanese arts.
> 
> Am I being negative about the ranking system? No. I am saying that I understand how it may raise some peoples eyebrows, so to speak.



Here's how I 'splain it at my website:



> *Q: What about belt ranks - kyu and dan grades?*
> *A: *These               are a recent development in Japanese arts. The old arts have _shoden_, _chuden_,               and _okuden_ (low, middle, and advanced) levels, with the _hiden_ or               secret oral teachings passed only to a select few. Bujinkan students               do not receive kyu or dan ranks in any of the nine systems, but               Hatsumi sensei has instituted such grades for the Bujinkan "umbrella" organization.               The current rank structure is modern, in the sense that kyu and               dan grades are used; yet it also harks back to the ancient shoden/chuden/okuden               form in that there are three general levels of training and understanding.
> 
> There               are nine kyu grades (beginning with 9th and advancing               through first), signified by a green belt worn by the practitioner.               These are followed by fifteen dan grades, signified by a black               belt. The kyu ranks, essentially, are preparation to become a               student of Bujinkan budo; and one is considered to be ready to               really begin learning at first dan or first-degree black belt.
> ...




It's also worth noting that, while the rank structure going up to 15th dan was in place for many years beforehand, no one -- _including the Japanese shihan_ -- was actually promoted to that grade until April, 2004.


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## rutherford (Jan 12, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> However, for someone like me that momentarily explored Bujinkan schools...I didn't find one that was lead by an instructor such as yourself.  The one that was closest to the place where I commute to is a school where the instructor's only professional applications of his training are his teaching.



Carol, you've exceeded your storage limit for private messages.


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## Fallen Ninja (Jan 12, 2007)

Thanks guys for all the information. It has been really helpful for my view of our art.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 12, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> Thanks guys for all the information. It has been really helpful for my view of our art.


 
Glad we could help!


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 12, 2007)

bencole said:


> I think it is important to point out errors in your comment then....
> 
> You wrote, "While in the bujinkan Tanemura Sensei had the rank of 9th dan and vice president at a time when ranks stopped at 9th dan (10th being the next grandmaster)."
> 
> This is untrue. Hatsumi-sensei had discussed the issue of 15th dans as early as 1983 *BEFORE* Tanemura left.


 
Hello Ben, thank you for your reply. I will say that (and I know you wre not involved in the Bujinkan in the 80's so you might not know this, but seeing as I was...) In the 80's it was commonly said that the rank stopped at 9th dan, 10th being Next Soke, some japanese Shihan also stated this. HOWEVER, I will defer to you and your knowledge on this. So if you say this was incorrect, then I will accept it as being incorrect.




bencole said:


> IMoreover, you are clearly not the first one to imply that ranks are meaningless today but somehow they were meaningful "back in the day." Steve Hayes, Alex Mordine, Wayne Roy and Brian McCarthy all use this tact. Highlighting Tanemura's "9th dan" as meaningful is simply silly--about a silly as someone complaining that someone is too young to be a 15th dan.


 
I do believe you are reading into my post. I will clairify for you and anyone else who might be confused... I do not think that Bujinkan ranks are meaningless at all, in the "old days" or today. I believe they serve as a tool, be it by design of your Kancho or not is not important. So no, I am not saying that ranks in the Bujinkan nowadays mean less than they did in the old days. I will go on record as saying that ranks in the Bujinkan in the old days were in fact much harder to come by and leave it at that. Interpret to taste, You will anyway... 

My intention was to show Tanemura Soke's position in the kan at that time, nothing more nothing less...



bencole said:


> IMoreover, in light of the comments in this thread about *WHY* people are given certain levels within the Bujinkan, to point out that Tanemura was "vice president" but to *NOT* point out that he was also Hatsumi-sensei's cousin (by marriage) is a bit misleading, in my opinion. Wouldn't you agree?


 
No, not at all. I do not agree. I am assuming that you are trying infer that Tanemura Soke's "position" of vice preseident was not due to any sort of skill but instead due to his "relationship" to your kancho.

That would be pure speculation on your part first of all, and second is again meaningless in terms of having anything to do with my post. Again my citation was to show position in the structure of the kan. It matters not how the position is achieved in the end. If you work fora company and the C.E.O.'s son is your boss and only got that position based on his relationship to te C.E.O. it matters not, if he tells you to clean the toilet, you still have to clean the toilet. In any regard, for the record, it is *MY* assumption knowledge and skill had some part in the appointing of the position.. But whatever, not important in the long run either way...





bencole said:


> IAnd skill....  Anyone with "the eyes to see" can see that....
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> -ben


Well having been eye to eye with Tanemura Soke on more than one occasion and having 23 years of bujinkan experience. I will go on record as saying I must not have these same eyes as you. But then again, I also don't see invisible balls floating in space like you do either so there ya go! 

I have never been so happy being blind.. 

In the end Ben, I must say that having a balanced open conversation with you is difficult at best, do to your myopic view and bias against all things NOT Mr. Hatsumi. I can appreciate you respect for the man and all...

Also FYI I REALLY have no interest in ongoing point counter point exchanges on this or really any subject. It takes too much time, and I am too busy.

So please feel free to have the last word, I amde just about all the points I can regarding the subject matter.

to others, again, Sumimasen for the drift in your thread.

Sincerely,


----------



## Kreth (Jan 12, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> Are you saying it comes down to $$$?


I'm saying that there are several high-ranking Bujinkan members who are obviously focused primarily on how big of a personal empire they can build. Pimping their rank is just part of the picture. And no, I'm not referring to Dale here.



Seattletcj said:


> What do you say to the fact that a high percentage of BJK websites advertise the rank of the instructor though ? It dosent seem that they are aware that their ranks are not to be used as a method of measurement.


And don't forget the "personal student" quote, or "first American in [insert increasingly small geographic area here] to pass his godan test on the first cut."


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## bencole (Jan 12, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> Even Japanese people are a little suspicious of 30 year old 15th dans.


 
Um... They certainly never seemed to mind individuals being named "Soke" or given "Menkyo Kaiden" at about that age, so I have no idea why they would be concerned with 30 year old 10th dans.... 

(Note: I say "10th" dans here, because the rank of "15th dan" is specific to the Bujinkan and, in all honesty, signifies multiple levels of 10th dan. Anyway...) 

Your point about the Japanese being "suspicious of 30 year old mega dans" falls flat when you look at the history of martial arts.

Yagyu Jubei Mitsuyoshi was teaching the shogun Tokugawa Iemitsu before the age of 25, and Okita S&#333;ji (of Kondo Isami's Shinsengumi) earned Menkyo Kaiden before he was 20! 

Even in the 20th century, Minoru Mochizuki received "Goshinyo no te" and "Hiden ogi no koto" of Daito Ryu from Ueshiba at the ripe age of 25 (!) and after just two years of training (!). Granted, Mochizuki had trained with Kano and others prior to that so he had skills, but come now, this idea that Japanese are suspicious of 30 year olds with mega-dans is hogwash.

As for ranks for reasons other than skill, in the 20th century again, Kisshomaru Ueshiba was placed in charge of the entire Shinjuku Kobukan Dojo at the age of 21, and after only 5 years of training with his father! (Thanks, Dad! LOL!)

Finally, as for the practice of "adding ranks" to reflect changing needs, Morihei Ueshiba personally increased the "maximum rank" in Aikido from 8th dan to 10th, when he gave Koichi Tohei 10th dan at the ripe age of 49!

I don't see critics of the Bujinkan ranking system ripping into the "mismatch" of age and rank in Aikido, political appointment by the founder of the art, or complaining about Ueshiba's adding of ranks as "playing very loose and flexible."



			
				Tenguru said:
			
		

> It seems like Soke Hatsumi is the one deviating from the traditional Japanese dan ranking system by playing very loose and flexible with the way he awards dan grades.


 
Please check your history. This focus on "rank" and "age" and "objectiveness" is *PURELY* a 20th century creation, based more on Western influences than anything else. Again, it is an influence of the low context need of Americans, imo.



			
				Tenguru said:
			
		

> Soke Hatsumi's ideas on ranking are very different from most traditional Japanese arts.


 
Again, please check your history of "traditional Japanese arts."

-ben


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## Seattletcj (Jan 12, 2007)

bencole said:


> I don't see critics of the Bujinkan ranking system ripping into the "mismatch" of age and rank in Aikido, political appointment by the founder of the art, or complaining about Ueshiba's adding of ranks as "playing very loose and flexible."



Actually _if you look_, you will find just as much critique, if not more.




> This focus on "rank" and "age" and "objectiveness" is *PURELY* a 20th century creation, based more on Western influences than anything else. Again, it is an influence of the low context need of Americans, imo.


This does not change the fact thet the vast majority of actual Japanese people, for whatever reasons have changed focus to "objectiveness", or western influences etc. To say that the hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students know more about the Japanese heart, then the Japanese people themselves will earn you the label of _henna gaijin_ I believe, and is kind of silly. There is nothing wrong or inferior about being an American, or being from the west BTW.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 12, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> This does not change the fact thet the vast majority of actual Japanese people, for whatever reasons have changed focus to "objectiveness", or western influences etc.


 
Well, sure, but I do believe that the knowledge and philosophy contained within the stuff we're dealing with was around a bit before that started to happen.



Seattletcj said:


> To say that the hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students know more about the Japanese heart,


 
Has anyone stated that yet? 



Seattletcj said:


> There is nothing wrong or inferior about being an American, or being from the west BTW.


 
What is wrong however is making the assumption that everyone in the world is from the west.


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## bencole (Jan 12, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> Actually _if you look_, you will find just as much critique, if not more.


 
Not among those who criticize the Bujinkan for these things.... 

They sound just like our friend Tenguru who make these sweeping uninformed generalizations about how "_Hatsumi is the one deviating_ from the traditional Japanese dan ranking system" when that is sooooooo far from the truth. 

These same people criticize giving rank for things other than skill and complain about the age of judans or higher. It's always the same uninformed drivel based upon some fantasized world of what Japanese Budo "should be" (but never traditionally has been). 

Only the names of the 20-year-old posters change. 



			
				Seattletcj said:
			
		

> This does not change the fact thet the vast majority of actual Japanese people, for whatever reasons have changed focus to "objectiveness", or western influences etc.


 
Hatsumi-sensei certainly hasn't. I swear that man is from a previous century! His language is vexing for Japanese themselves, and the spirit with which he approaches his Budo is not of this century, imo.



			
				Seattletcj said:
			
		

> To say that the hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students know more about the Japanese heart, then the Japanese people themselves will earn you the label of _henna gaijin_ I believe, and is kind of silly.


 
Who said anything about "hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students" understanding the Japanese heart! LOL! You must know a bunch of people I don't know! LOL! 



			
				Seattletcj said:
			
		

> There is nothing wrong or inferior about being an American, or being from the west BTW.


 
Not at all. But in understanding Japanese budo, it does act as a handicap to be unaware of the contextual nature of the Japanese way. That's why I have suggested for years that people study Japanese to be able to learn the art in its actual language and/or read up on the cultural differences.

One book I recommend is called "Hidden Differences: Doing Business with the Japanese" by Hall & Hall. It has little to do with "doing business with" and more to do with "understanding," but I think the former name sells more books. LOL! 

-ben


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## Carol (Jan 12, 2007)

rutherford said:


> Carol, you've exceeded your storage limit for private messages.


 
Bad me!  

Fixed now.


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## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I haven't personally felt like playing the "rank game" for a while... I let the people whom I have trained and the people who I respect and who respect me speak for me, if that makes sense.


 
I want to elaborate just a hair here, after a little thought.  When rank doesn't limit what you can learn -- it doesn't have much meaning, to me.  And, in my opinion, rank alone doesn't suggest teaching ability (or any other ability).  There are lots of reasons why someone may or may not advance in rank within an organization; some are political, some are practical, and some are personal.  And all the reasons have more than one side.

It's when rank starts to become a dividing line between what you can or can't learn that I have concerns.  Again -- rank and ability aren't always the same; some people are promoted to "grow into" a rank, others are promoted in recognition of a "rank" that they've already been for a long time, without official acknowledgement.  You may need a certain skill level to learn something -- but that may not match a rank.

(Anyone confused yet?)


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## Seattletcj (Jan 12, 2007)

bencole said:


> Who said anything about "hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students" understanding the Japanese heart! LOL! You must know a bunch of people I don't know! LOL!
> -ben



LOL, ya maybe a little exaggeration. Maybe I should have said thousands, or tens of thousands. I'm sure you get what I'm saying though.


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## MJS (Jan 12, 2007)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

*_*Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-*


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## Tenguru (Jan 12, 2007)

bencole said:


> Um... They certainly never seemed to mind individuals being named "Soke" or given "Menkyo Kaiden" at about that age, so I have no idea why they would be concerned with 30 year old 10th dans....
> 
> (Note: I say "10th" dans here, because the rank of "15th dan" is specific to the Bujinkan and, in all honesty, signifies multiple levels of 10th dan. Anyway...)
> 
> ...



Hehe.  Ben Cole is annoyed at me.  LOL.

Let me just say that after reading your very spirited post, it still stands that "30 something" tenth dans are widely considered anomalous.  It has already been explained that Soke Hatsumi's ideas of rank do not correlate to kyu-dan ranks given in other martial arts styles.  I believe you have posted in agreement with this position yourself.

Are you equating "30 something" 15th dans in the Bujinkan with the likes of Yagyu Jubei Mitsuyoshi, Minoru Mochizuki, and Koichi Tohei?  There are also teenagers who have earned PhD's, but it is very rare.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 12, 2007)

Okay let us change the way we are talking about Budo Taijutsu rank and I would ask everybody what they think are the* positives* behind how rank is issued in the Bujinkan.


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## bydand (Jan 12, 2007)

Damn, Brian I tried to rep you for that last post, but I have to "Spread it around more first" or something like that.  I agree, this is getting ........ I can't come up with the right word without sounding negitive or condesending.  Reminds me of the Kenpo forums from a couple of weeks ago, people hammering on others about things they cannot change.  I agree, lets focus on the positives about our art here, we have enough people who are willing to bash at every aspect of the art, we don't need to do it to ourselves.  Just agree to dis-agree and refocus.

Go ahead, bash away at my post, I have broad shoulders.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 12, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would ask everybody what they think are the* positives* behind how rank is issued in the Bujinkan.



It starts flame wars online that amuse the hell outta me...


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## bydand (Jan 12, 2007)

Cryozombie said:


> It starts flame wars online that amuse the hell outta me...



OK, you got me.  I forgot about that aspect of it.  Forget what I just said in my last post  I kind of like watching how they progress as well.  Lets just take it over to a different area and watch the trolls feed over there away from the Ninjutsu threads.


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## bencole (Jan 12, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> Let me just say that after reading your very spirited post, it still stands that "30 something" tenth dans are widely considered anomalous.


 
By whom?

Nearly every Japanese art going back in history has provided "menkyo kaiden" or equivalent "mega dans" to individuals under the age of 40. And that includes even the most well-known Koryu schools as well.



			
				Tenguru said:
			
		

> It has already been explained that Soke Hatsumi's ideas of rank do not correlate to kyu-dan ranks given in other martial arts styles. I believe you have posted in agreement with this position yourself.


 
I have posted that it is inappropriate for people to compare ranks within the Bujinkan to other individuals within the Bujinkan and to compare ranks in the Bujinkan to ranks in other arts. Similarly, it would be inappropriate to compare a 5th dan in Aikido with a 5th dan in Gosoku Ryu Karate. Each has its own requirements, and neither dan holder could hope to pass the other's "requirement" easily.



			
				Tenguru said:
			
		

> Are you equating "30 something" 15th dans in the Bujinkan with the likes of Yagyu Jubei Mitsuyoshi, Minoru Mochizuki, and Koichi Tohei?


 
My question back is: "Why couldn't they be?"

There are a lot of people out there who are somehow convinced that individuals these days can never achieve the greatness that others have achieved in the past. I think that is sad.

Hatsumi-sensei says that he will train us to be better than he is. And, silly me, I believe it can be done *IF* we listen to him.

There is no doubt in my mind that some of the individuals who hold the highest rank in the Bujinkan were at a level in their understanding of their Budo that Mochizuki or Tohei had when they were awarded the highest rank in their own arts. 

Alas, this has nothing to do with their "rank" per se, but with their training. That's the point.

As to Brian's point, the positives of the Bujinkan ranking structure are that:

1) Each teacher is free to judge the basis of what should be rewarded and what should not be rewarded. Seeing how each student is merely replacing their own habits with those of their teachers, this is a good thing.   Each teacher has certain things that s/he does well and certain things that s/he doesn't do well. It is best for people to teach what they do/know well, and for them to allow their students to seek out others to fill in other holes.

2) Students learn at different speeds, so someone may take longer to learn "Ura Gyaku" than someone else, but that someone may pick up fancy footwork faster. A grading system that would require someone to absolutely "learn Ura Gyaku" before advancing could severely hinder the growth of an individual if that grade was necessary before learning "new stuff." 

The Bujinkan way of grading is completely in line with what we understand about how the human brain processes information and makes connections between seemingly unconnected things. For all we know, a sword cut learned after getting the fancy footwork down *COULD* lead the student to understand what he was doing wrong in his "Ura Gyaku"!!!

3) Rank is always personal and allows one to know how one personally stands compared to where one was before.

4) It adheres to the same spirit as old arts in the history of Japan.

5) We have five additional levels above those aikido guys, so we can wallpaper larger rooms! 

-ben


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## Don Roley (Jan 12, 2007)

Tenguru said:


> If bujinkan ranks do not uniformly imply a relative standing or position, why make the ranks known?  If it really is just a personal barometer, do you even need to know "so-in-so's" rank?  Wouldn't it make more sense to just say "this person is a Shidoshi/Shihan and this person is not" or "This person was granted Menkyo Kaiden (sp?)", and leave it at that.
> 
> Just curious.



That is the way I do things. Some folks do not talk about their rank or mention it. Dale Seago, Luke Molitor, and Kreth are folks I can point to that never seem to talk about what rank they are. But everyone seems to know them and their reputation.

I looked through your past posts, and I did not see anything that led me to believe you had a lot of experience in Japan or with the Bujinkan. Maybe I can help you understand why your comment about "traditional" rank has caused some comment. Simply put, the kyu/dan system for martial arts started with Jigoro Kano and judo. Before that, if you mentioned what dan you were, people would have thought you were talking about the game of Go.

I have a rank in Go (also called Igo) and it helps a lot. If I meet up with someone new and we want to have a game, the comparison of our ranks lets us know who gets the handicap and how much of one. For _*sports*_ the same pribciples apply. You need a kyu/dan system to insure that the eighth kyu does not try to compete against the seventh dan.

But that was not the case in battlefield arts.

Arts made for combat just did not have black belts or anything like that. There were certificates that cerified people for teaching the art, nothing more. For people having to get better against others, there could be no resting on their laurals because they reached a certain rank.

Hatsumi did not have dan ranks until Hayes came along. I will try to bring up the article where I think it was Manaka while he was still in the Bujinkan brings up the point that when there was only a few people training together they did not bother with ranks. I have been told that Hayes asked for a black belt after his first trip and things have kind of gone off from there.

IMO, Hatsumi really did not think about his rank structure and really does not care. For one person to try to use rank to compare themself to another is just so... so... _Freudian_ in many ways.

I think of rank in the Bujinkan as a compliment, a pat on the back. It means that the teacher thinks more of you than before. But as a language teacher, I know I have used compliments more often with slower students that needed it than with the ones I feel proud of.

So I keep that in mind when thinking about rank. I do not call attention to my rank anymore than I let people know that I have been complimented. To do so seems conceited. If I am given a rank, I accept it and put it away and keep coming to class. I like being complimented, but it is nobody's business but my own and the person giving me rank.


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## Fallen Ninja (Jan 13, 2007)

bencole said:


> 2) Students learn at different speeds, so someone may take longer to learn "Ura Gyaku" than someone else, but that someone may pick up fancy footwork faster. A grading system that would require someone to absolutely "learn Ura Gyaku" before advancing could severely hinder the growth of an individual if that grade was necessary before learning "new stuff."
> 
> The Bujinkan way of grading is completely in line with what we understand about how the human brain processes information and makes connections between seemingly unconnected things. For all we know, a sword cut learned after getting the fancy footwork down *COULD* lead the student to understand what he was doing wrong in his "Ura Gyaku"!!!
> 
> ...


So with this wisdom we should let people become medical doctors without knowing what the heart does... because it limits his personal growth if we don't.
I think what the others are getting at is there should be a standard that each Shodan, Godan, Jugodan... should know and be able to share with others if so asked.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 13, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> So with this wisdom we should let people become medical doctors without knowing what the heart does... because it limits his personal growth if we don't.
> I think what the others are getting at is there should be a standard that each Shodan, Godan, Jugodan... should know and be able to share with others if so asked.



I think that anology is apples to oranges regarding what Ben said.  There is a difference between not knowing and knowing perfectly.  Even doctors make huge mistakes from time to time because they lack the skill in certain areas.  Those very same doctors may be experts in other areas of medicine as well.


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## saru1968 (Jan 13, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> I think what the others are getting at is there should be a standard that each Shodan, Godan, Jugodan... should know and be able to share with others if so asked.


 
Still would make no differences as the standard by which each Instructor grades on the basis of 'set techniques' for example would be different.

We have Uni's in the Uk that run courses fro specific qualifications but the quality of the students passing these courses and obtaining the same qualification varies from area to area.

The training and gradings has to be individual in my opinion to be of value.


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## bencole (Jan 13, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> So with this wisdom we should let people become medical doctors without knowing what the heart does... because it limits his personal growth if we don't.


 
Please keep that in mind when someone you know gets cancer and your friend is thinking about going to an oncologist and you suggest that he visit a neural surgeon. 



			
				Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> I think what the others are getting at is there should be a standard that each Shodan, Godan, Jugodan... should know and be able to share with others if so asked.


 
So you would have gone to see Musashi to learn kyudo, then? 

Certain people are naturally more skilled at certain things and not skilled at others. I think it makes terrific sense to train with people in the things that they are most skilled at, and train with others in things that others are more skilled at.

The Bujinkan arts are *VERY* expansive and take many, many years to understand. We do not just learn how to throw people (a la Judo), or punch or kick (a la Karate), or draw swords (a la Iaido). We do *ALL* that, *PLUS* naginata, *PLUS* flexible weapons, *PLUS* water techniques, *PLUS* this, *PLUS* that. 

As with any specialty (such as throwing people), it takes a lot of dedicated training (just like Judo-ka) to get good at it. Some people specialize in certain things, due to talent or interest or whatever. So doesn't it make sense to want to train with those specialists?

For example, if you want to learn Bujinkan swordwork in the U.S., you should train with Luke Molitor. Period. That means you might have to travel to train with him. But in the end, you get the best instruction that way.

In the end, by allowing people to pursue their own desires in their pursuits, you get the optimal outcome for the greater group. A guy named Adam Smith said that a while back. 

-ben


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## Fallen Ninja (Jan 13, 2007)

bencole said:


> Certain people are naturally more skilled at certain things and not skilled at others. I think it makes terrific sense to train with people in the things that they are most skilled at, and train with others in things that others are more skilled at.
> 
> The Bujinkan arts are *VERY* expansive and take many, many years to understand. We do not just learn how to throw people (a la Judo), or punch or kick (a la Karate), or draw swords (a la Iaido). We do *ALL* that, *PLUS* naginata, *PLUS* flexible weapons, *PLUS* water techniques, *PLUS* this, *PLUS* that.
> 
> ...


Point taken.

But if there is no standard of excellence we come full circle in asking who is qualified to show anything?
And, we still have a lot of people with high ranks that may not be very effective in taijutsu and have just attained rank because of spending more time with someone... or... buying rank... or whatever. Which leaves us with confusion about who to trust in training and leads us to a very weak infastructure.
There was some postings on another forum about some 8th Dans doing some very weak taijutsu for their ranks.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 13, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> But if there is no standard of excellence we come full circle in asking who is qualified to show anything?


 
Show to whom? :ultracool 



Fallen Ninja said:


> Which leaves us with confusion about who to trust in training and leads us to a very weak infastructure.


 
I'm not all that confused anymore. I used to be, but now I've set up a couple of guidelines for myself at least.
First of all, I'm not fond of people who claim to do stuff *THE* correct way as opposed to everyone else. 
Second, I'm distrustful of anyone who just demonstrates a whole lot of techniques without saying anything about what he's trying to accomplish. 
Third, I don't like people with a "curriculum", i.e. someone who teaches the exact same stuff for years, and has a set of "routines" which he brings with him to every seminar and/or dvd (unless, of course, we're talking kihon happo). 
Fourth, I don't trust anyone who speaks as if he's reading out loud from a novel. 
Fifth, I try to avoid training with anyone who's so caught up in his own training that he doesn't realize anymore that what he calls "natural" doesn't feel natural at first. 
Sixth, I tend to be suspicious of people who try to emphasize kamae AS OPPOSED TO establishing control, be it control over the balance of the opponent, kukan or whatever you prefer (basically someone with a kickboxing mentality). 
Seventh, I try to avoid people who take themselves a bit too seriously.
And the eighth and final rule, I keep far away from people whose power I can sense coming from their arms and upper bodies.


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## bydand (Jan 13, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> There was some postings on another forum about some 8th Dans doing some very weak taijutsu for their ranks.



*Then don't train with them.* 

Move on and find someone with good taijutsu reguardless of their rank and train with them.  I don't give a rats backside what rank somebody is either, a 9th Kyu or a 15th Dan can show me something and I can find something to learn from them.  I don't ask rank, I look at their movement and attitude.  It is not my place to either give rank or question rank, it is my place to find the best training I can. 

I would not be so bold as to infer Hatsumi Sensei had made a mistake in awarding rank to someone.  Example: I have been an Electrician for way, way too long (25 years this year) and that would be like somebody who just strapped on a tool belt questioning the way I have a large commercial job timeline laid out.  They may have some degree of knowledge, maybe even went to college for the trade; BUT, while they were reading books and buying beer, I was laying out the electrical for multi-million dollar jobs. I'll be polite and listen to their argument, then tell them to go pound sand someplace.  Are we going to call THE BOSS to task because in our little narrow view of the art we don't agree with his actions?  Not me!


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## Seattletcj (Jan 13, 2007)

bencole said:


> The Bujinkan arts are *VERY* expansive and take many, many years to understand. We do not just learn how to throw people (a la Judo), or punch or kick (a la Karate), or draw swords (a la Iaido). We do *ALL* that, *PLUS* naginata, *PLUS* flexible weapons, *PLUS* water techniques, *PLUS* this, *PLUS* that.
> 
> As with any specialty (such as throwing people), it takes a lot of dedicated training (just like Judo-ka) to get good at it. Some people specialize in certain things, due to talent or interest or whatever. So doesn't it make sense to want to train with those specialists?
> 
> -ben



Are you saying to cross-train with specialists in judo for throwing, and karate for striking?


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## Alan Witty (Jan 13, 2007)

As one with a web site I find it a useful way for folks to find out who is training here. I admit to laziness as I just asked my teacher and he let me use his template.  

On another point I think that having your rank up is a way for people to say ok he is ok to teach. I guess Shidhoshi would do as well.  I actually think that rank is less important than who I learned from.  That I do post and if people ask I say check with Dale or Mike.

Otherwise I do not think I have worn the patch since that awful picture on the site.  We do use Kyu sheets but mostly so people will have some idea of what to focus on for practice.  Otherwise it rarely comes up. But here is a funny story.

One of my students received his Shodan.  Another wanted to buy the fellow his black belt. Fine with me. This was till I got a call from the second student who had tried to purchase a belt for the first from several locations and got these long lectures on why they could not sell him a black belt and how his just buying one &#8211; albeit for a good hearted reason &#8211; was bad.  Go figure as he could buy one the internet. Finally, I had to speak to the head of a local school, who had invited me to a seminar and knew me, and asked him to please sell the fellow a black belt.  This was than done if a bit grudgingly.

Black belt or religious icon?


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## bydand (Jan 13, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> Are you saying to cross-train with specialists in judo for throwing, and karate for striking?



I think he was refering to members of the Bujinkan who specialize in these aspects of the art.


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## KageMusha (Jan 13, 2007)

I will probably get flamed for this, but what the hey.....

 I don't see a huge problem with a 30 year Judan, only a 30 year old Judan that started training when they were about 20 years old.

 I have been training in the martial arts for almost 13 years now.  I find it hard to believe that someone can "master" and art with such little mat time.  I have heard of someone in particular who had only about 8 years of mat time and somehow was a 6th dan.  I may have been told wrong, so I will not state who.

 The 25 year old people of old japan that Ben mentioned as masters/soke of their time probably did have a great understanding of the arts of war.  But they started training since about the age of birth.  Even if they were not training yet as a child, they were being conditioned to.  That is the differance.

 Just my opinion.  Flame on......


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## Seattletcj (Jan 13, 2007)

> I think he was refering to members of the Bujinkan who specialize in these aspects of the art.


oh....should have known.  It almost made sense  ! 

I can see it now.......
me: Honey, I'll be heading off to Maine to learn some throwing techniques next week. I dont feel I have enough skill in this area and I  heard there is a Bujinkan guy there that is really good at throws. I'll practice with him over the weekend, and after that I'll be much better.

 wife: Why dont you just go to the judo club down the street? The instructors are world class judoka from Japan, and you can go every week.

 me: Well, uhm, but they dont do things the Bujinkan way. Its uhm a different feeling.  Its not as realistic. Its for combat not sport. They dont do throws while wearing swords. Oh, by the way ....on the 1st of the month I'm heading down to Texas for a few days to learn some sword fighting stuff.

Lots of ideas sound good when they are sugar coated and topped with sprinkles, but are in reality, illogical and unrealistic.


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## bydand (Jan 13, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> oh....should have known.  It almost made sense  !
> 
> I can see it now.......
> me: Honey, I'll be heading off to Maine to learn some throwing techniques next week. I dont feel I have enough skill in this area and I  heard there is a Bujinkan guy there that is really good at throws. I'll practice with him over the weekend, and after that I'll be much better.
> ...



Did I say this?  No!  You are acting like a little kid now.  When you grow up and can post like a resonable adult I may take you off ignore, but I highly doubt it.  Never had the feeling I needed to use that feature, but your posts are just becomming more bizzare and frankly rather condensending.  Grow up!  Get off your narrow point of view and actually read what is being said in other posts. Posts like this may work on other forums, but thank God this forum has people smart enough to ignore adolesent behavior and stupid arguments like this one from you.  Welcome to being the first person I ever put on my ignore list, should give you a warm feeling all inside. :feedtroll


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## Don Roley (Jan 14, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> oh....should have known.  It almost made sense  !
> 
> I can see it now.......
> me: Honey, I'll be heading off to Maine to learn some throwing techniques next week. I dont feel I have enough skill in this area and I  heard there is a Bujinkan guy there that is really good at throws. I'll practice with him over the weekend, and after that I'll be much better.
> ...



Bydand is right.

If you think that you can take something from another art like judo and just pass it off as Bujinkan, then you really do not have that deep of an understanding. There are similarities, and there are differences in every art. It is the differences that are the important things. 

But of course, I see a lot of people in the Bujinkan that think they can take a little knife work from Kali, some sword from aikido and pass it off as Bujinkan. It does not work because of all the patches needed to make it come together.

Perhaps you should calm down a little and be a little less insulting?


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## saru1968 (Jan 14, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> Bydand is right.
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should calm down a little and be a little less insulting?


 

Just what i was thinking....

I knew what Byland was saying as i suspect seattlecj does................


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## Bigshadow (Jan 14, 2007)

KageMusha said:


> I will probably get flamed for this, but what the hey.....
> 
> I don't see a huge problem with a 30 year Judan, only a 30 year old Judan that started training when they were about 20 years old.
> 
> ...



People don't learn at the same rate.  Some people can train for 20 years and not get it, others can train for 5 and do get it.  It isn't a union where one has seniority because they have been "in" the longest.


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## MJS (Jan 14, 2007)

Thread closed pending review.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod


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