# What exactly is MMA?



## habahaba (Oct 5, 2007)

Is MMA a specific type of martial art, or is it just the name of a competition?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 5, 2007)

Might start here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31936


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## Dave Leverich (Oct 5, 2007)

Technically it means Mixed Martial Arts.
Lately it has derived it's own meaning, more of cage fighting, Ultimate style fighting, a mixture of grappling/wrestling and striking.


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## MattJ (Oct 6, 2007)

Another good thread here:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=630775#post630775


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## habahaba (Oct 6, 2007)

Let me rephrase. Is MMA a hybrid martial art, meaning a martial art in itself that covers grappling, kicking and punching altogether, like JKD? And please, I need a drect answer, not a link to another thread.


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## K831 (Oct 6, 2007)

habahaba said:


> Let me rephrase. Is MMA a hybrid martial art, meaning a martial art in itself that covers grappling, kicking and punching altogether, like JKD? And please, I need a drect answer, not a link to another thread.



I will try to be direct. MMA is an acronym for "mixed martial arts" and so the simplest definition is that an MMA practitioner is anyone who studies several martial arts and uses them together, in a "mix" that suits them and the situation. 

JKD, Kenpo, Kajukenbo etc were started on this principle but have become their own "style" and so in my opinion no longer come under "mixed martial arts."

MMA is associated with a certain type of competition, the likes of UFC and the former PRIDE association.  This has led to the general definition of MMA as any one who studies several arts that give them skills in all ranges, i.e one mixed martial artist may study Kenpo (striking / contact manipulation) and Sambo (Clinch / Grappling) while another may study boxing / kickboxing (striking ranges) and BJJ (grappling / submission ) in an attempt to be a well rounded fighter. 

EDIT; I should note that nowadays most schools that advertise "MMA classes" will teach a mix of striking and grappling suited for the UFC and WITH THOSE RULES AND REGULATIONS IN MIND. This is also what most people mean when they say "I study MMA" however, the true definition is not bound by the rules of the UFC or any other association. 

Does that help??


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## cohenp (Nov 12, 2007)

I've heard MMA described as freestyle fighting. There is no one definite style or form that is better than any other. It's an open style of fighting that subject to the fighters opinion.


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## Omar B (Nov 12, 2007)

cohenp said:


> I've heard MMA described as freestyle fighting. There is no one definite style or form that is better than any other. It's an open style of fighting that subject to the fighters opinion.



No, it's not Freestyle.  That word denotes it having no holds barred and being totally open to any type of attack.  MMA as a sport, you cannot use many of the things we learn in Karate like knifehand strikes, groin strikes, etc.  The point is to knock someone out, not kill or permanently maim them.

MMA sport - Highly regulated combat and limited in what you can and can't do in the ring.

MMA Philosophy - A way of approaching MA by learning as widely as you can and tailoring what you learn to your own body's capabilities and you needs.


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## PictonMA (Nov 12, 2007)

Firstly, my two cents on "what exactly is MMA?"

Multidisciplinary sporting combat utilizing all ranges and phases of combat, generally in a cage or a ring using pre-determined time limits and rules.

Secondly, statements like:



> MMA as a sport, you cannot use many of the things we learn in Karate like knifehand strikes, groin strikes, etc. The point is to knock someone out, not kill or permanently maim them.



drive me nuts.  The continued false adherence to the belief and perputation that "in MMA you can't use techniques like XXX that we learn in art YYY" is one thing about TMAs (and I consider myself one) that make them look foolish when discussing MMA.

The rules of the UFC and by and large all MMA events with minor differences:

*Fouls:*
1.   Butting with the head. 
2.   Eye gouging of any kind. 
3.   Biting. 
4.   Hair pulling. 
5.   Fish hooking. 
6.   Groin attacks of any kind. 
7.   Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. 
8.   Small joint manipulation. 
9.   Striking to the spine or the back of the head. 
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. 
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. 
13. Grabbing the clavicle. 
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. 
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. 
16. Stomping a grounded opponent. 
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. 
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area. 
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. 
21. Spitting at an opponent. 
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. 
23. Holding the ropes or the fence. 
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area. 
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break. 
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee. 
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat. 
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee. 
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury. 
30. Interference by the corner. 
31. Throwing in the towel during competition. 

*Absolute adherence to commission mandated rules for MMA:
*Commission approved gloves 
Weight classes 
Time limits and rounds 
Mandatory drug testing 
No head butting or kicking to the downed opponent 
No knees to the head of a downed opponent 
No downward point of the elbow strikes 
No strikes to the spine or the back of the head 
No groin or throat strikes 
State Athletic Commission approval in such major states as New Jersey, Nevada, Florida & Louisiana.


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## Omar B (Nov 12, 2007)

Yeah, and you can't do the stuff I mentioned too.  What's the disagreement here?


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## PictonMA (Nov 13, 2007)

Where does it say you can't knife hand? Or spear hand? Or any of the other "traditional" moves that TMAs claim aren't allowed in MMA because they are to "dangerous" but the reason they really aren't used in MMA isn't because they aren't allowed (again where are they in the rules?) but because they don't work in this setting.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 13, 2007)

and compare that list to all of the things you are not allowed to do in karate competition, MMA's list of things you can't do is a lot shorter.


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## Odin (Nov 13, 2007)

17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 

Really??...wow when did that happen?

That used to be one of Royces favourite moves from guard...and mine


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## FearlessFreep (Nov 13, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> and compare that list to all of the things you are not allowed to do in karate competition, MMA's list of things you can't do is a lot shorter.



Here's an interesting, I think, question or thought.

Given that the scenario between a competition and a 'real life' encounter are quite different, which do you train for?  

I don't mean that in a snarky sense.  What I mean is that the legal vs rules situation are quite a bit different such that in a real life encounter there are 'no rules', but that are legal issues then to face.  An example being that ground and pound is perfectly legitimate in the ring but may be difficult to defend as legitimate self-defense in many cases.  In a match, you have motivation to aggressively engage your opponent, whereas in life your motivation is to get home safe and alive and hopefully not go to jail for whatever happened

Different motivations lead to different tactics lead to different techniques.  Result being that there are approaches that will work in the cage that may not work on the street and vice versa.

Now, most of what are called "Traditional" Martial Arts have within them a lot of techniques designed for fighting that are not allowed within their own sparring/sport rules.  Those are still part of the art, and part of the training, but not part of the competition

So... the question I meant to ask.  Those of you who train what you call "MMA", do you train "MMA" as a collection of techniques designed to excel in the ring/cage?  or do you train "MMA" as really mixing various martial arts for effective personal combat, of which what you do in the cage is a subset used for competitive reasons that has proven to be effective in that context?

Or if your MMA includes Muy Thai?  Do you train all of Muy Thai or just the few techniques that will prove most valuable in the ring, for example?

Consider gi versus no-gi.  There are a lot of techniques in BJJ that work of the clothes of the opponent which would be very effective in a street fight but pretty useless in match where you *know* the opponent does not wear a shirt.  Does you MMA traning that includes BJJ include those sorts of techniques?


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## PictonMA (Nov 13, 2007)

First and foremost I teach my students to train for what they realistically can *and *would do in a self defence situation.

As people train longer and longer and get better balance, sense of timing, flexibility, depth of techinical understanding, spacial orientation etc etc I think it is reasonable to add more variety to their responses.

For the rank beginner - gross motor movements designed to get one out of the situation asap.

Also, I teach people to not waste their time on things they can't see themselves doing or living with the results of - if you can't  see yourself gouging someones eyes out - why bother, if you wouldn't crush an assailants throat then why train that if you want a clear concsience afterwards, etc.

For me, if someone is stupid enough to attack me then I consider that carte blanche to respond with deadly force and get a good nights sleep aftewards - not everyone is comfortable with this.

Now, for competition - I make it very clear to my students (and to myself) that if we are going to a competition then we had better train for *that* competition and it's specific ruleset - to not do so is a waste of time and you are deluding yourself if you (generically speaking) think one competition is the same as the rest and what will work on the streets will work in the ring and the same for the reverse.


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## CatNap (Nov 13, 2007)

habahaba said:


> Let me rephrase. Is MMA a hybrid martial art, meaning a martial art in itself that covers grappling, kicking and punching altogether, like JKD? And please, I need a drect answer, not a link to another thread.


 
MMA is not even close to JKD. Most of the those that take part in the event aren't even martial artists - they dabble in a little of wresting, Muay Thai, jujijutsu, etc. but only enough to win a fight.  What they can't do, and what most martial artists are taught, is to adapt.  Not everyone in the sport sucks, you do have your share of seasoned fighters, but as with boxing, you also have a lot of clowns and pretenders....


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## Odin (Nov 14, 2007)

CatNap said:


> MMA is not even close to JKD. Most of the those that take part in the event aren't even martial artists - they dabble in a little of wresting, Muay Thai, jujijutsu, etc. but only enough to win a fight. What they can't do, and what most martial artists are taught, is to adapt. Not everyone in the sport sucks, you do have your share of seasoned fighters, but as with boxing, you also have a lot of clowns and pretenders....


 
MMa is not close to jkd? Could explain the difference?( im not arguing by the way just interested ) 

I wouldnt say MMA fighters ''dabble'' in a little bit of everything, I would instead say that they learn a selected number of techniques from various martial arts ( very similar to JKD ) ..they for instance do not learn a little bit of muay thai instead they learn how to kick like a thaiboxer since that is a move that is benefical to what they need to do, they do not for instance learn the thaiboxing jumping downward elbow since it is not so useful...in this aspect it is not learning half an art it is just borrowing techniques.

I disagree with your statement about adapting...since MMA was formed due to the need to adapt to fight fighters from different martial arts, Boxers had to ADAPT to fight wreastlers, wreastlers had to ADAPT to fight thaiboxers and so on and so forth....

as for clowns and pretenders.....are yuo saying there are non of those in TMA???


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## Tez3 (Nov 14, 2007)

CatNap said:


> MMA is not even close to JKD. Most of the those that take part in the event aren't even martial artists - they dabble in a little of wresting, Muay Thai, jujijutsu, etc. but only enough to win a fight. What they can't do, and what most martial artists are taught, is to adapt. Not everyone in the sport sucks, you do have your share of seasoned fighters, but as with boxing, you also have a lot of clowns and pretenders....


 

That's some pretty sweeping generalisations there! Okay, as I keep saying ( sorry... you'll be changing my name to Polly soon) I can only speak for the UK ( and some European fight teams) but I know very few fighters who aren't MA and TMA at that trained. Dabblers, no, they are very serious about their art and constantly look to improve their training and techniques. We have a good few fighters who are TKD blackbelts, of the top ones Rosie Sexton (fights on Bodog) and Mark Weir (UFC) come to mind. We have fighters who come from a CMA backgound Sami Berik for one, plenty come from Muay Thai and actually go to Thailand to train. We also have a lot from BJJ background, we have some excellent Brazilians teaching over here at the moment and many again travel to Brazil, Peter Irving, a pro fighter friend of mine spent a year out there.Micheal Bisping soon to headline the next UFC in the States is from a TMA background, karate and kickboxing.Leigh Remedious (UFC) is MT and BJJ.  

We have a lot of interclub training and Open Mats and believe me, the fighters can adapt pretty smartish. We train MT with Thai instructors so train everything they teach us, they teach us techniques that are useful for winning a fight. Plenty of MT fighter only learn enough MT to compete and that's in Thailand, if you want the full MT teaching don't go to a commerical MT fighters camp.We can do knife hands, ridge hands, backfists if we want, have seen backfists KO fighters, hammerfists too. So we don't do knifehands often in a competitive fight? and? how often would you use them in a self defence situation? and how often in a karate points comp? the answer to both is... rarely.

I swear I'm going to say this for the last time, we train MMA to fight in competitions, we train self defence for self defence, many of us train TMA, many of us do weapons. None of these is separate from the other, we don't have one track brains, we can quite easily switch from MMA to self defence when needed, we can keep to MMA rules when needed. We are martial artists.

clowns and pretenders? You get them everywhere.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 14, 2007)

CatNap said:


> MMA is not even close to JKD. Most of the those that take part in the event aren't even martial artists - they dabble in a little of wresting, Muay Thai, jujijutsu, etc. but only enough to win a fight.  What they can't do, and what most martial artists are taught, is to adapt.  Not everyone in the sport sucks, you do have your share of seasoned fighters, but as with boxing, you also have a lot of clowns and pretenders....



MMA is all about adaptability, far more then any other competitive format, and most pros train more in a week then "traditional" martial artists do in a month.


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## MattJ (Nov 14, 2007)

CatNap said:


> Most of the those that take part in the event aren't even martial artists - they dabble in a little of wresting, Muay Thai, jujijutsu, etc. but only enough to win a fight.


 
"Martial artists" don't want to win a fight? Iron-o-meter in the red here.



> What they can't do, and what most martial artists are taught, is to adapt. Not everyone in the sport sucks, you do have your share of seasoned fighters, but as with boxing, you also have a lot of clowns and pretenders....


 
No clowns or pretenders in "martial arts", huh? :mst:


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## Andrew Green (Nov 14, 2007)

Personally I find it much harder to be a "clown or pretender" when someone is actively trying to KO you or submit you, but maybe that is just me.


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## cohenp (Nov 14, 2007)

MMA is a fairly open art. At the gym if I roll with someone who doesn't understand a wrestling move I did I'll explain it to him and maybe he'll pick it up. Maybe I'll roll with a Judo guy and pick up a throw or a lock or something.  I'll pick up some pointers on my kicks from a guy who spent some time in Thailand at a Muay Thai camp. The point is you can work like any other martial art into your MMA.


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## Tez3 (Nov 14, 2007)

cohenp said:


> MMA is a fairly open art. At the gym if I roll with someone who doesn't understand a wrestling move I did I'll explain it to him and maybe he'll pick it up. Maybe I'll roll with a Judo guy and pick up a throw or a lock or something. I'll pick up some pointers on my kicks from a guy who spent some time in Thailand at a Muay Thai camp. The point is you can work like any other martial art into your MMA.


 
Very true. What I've seen a lot at shows is two fighters who have just minutes before been trying to KO or sub each other, out in a corridor or foyer going over the fight they've had showing each other how they did the techniques. Many times in the ring I've hear one congratulating another on a move and the reply is nearly always, c'mon I'll show you how to do it! 
MMA *is* an art, it's more than just training to win a fight, it's about expanding your martial arts knowledge, it's not about just bashing each other senseless as some would claim. It's a game of physical chess using both brain,brawn and skill. Oh... and it's addictive lol!


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## thardey (Nov 14, 2007)

CatNap said:


> Not everyone in the sport sucks, you do have your share of seasoned fighters, but as with boxing, you also have a lot of clowns and pretenders....



Most of the pretenders I run into these days claim MMA or cage fighting as their training. Most of them can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. That doesn't mean that's true of actual MMA students.


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## Tez3 (Nov 14, 2007)

thardey said:


> Most of the pretenders I run into these days claim MMA or cage fighting as their training. Most of them can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. That doesn't mean that's true of actual MMA students.


 

I remember when  they claimed to be kickboxers and before that they did Kung Fu and before that............etc. lol!


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## thardey (Nov 14, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I remember when  they claimed to be kickboxers and before that they did Kung Fu and before that............etc. lol!



Don't forget the ninjers!


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## FearlessFreep (Nov 14, 2007)

thardey said:


> Don't forget the ninjers!



Or pirates


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