# Is it OK for my child to be humiliated?



## MichaelSourey

Hi,

I would like some feedback about something that happened to my son.

I am new to the world of eastern martial arts and the deferential respect for authority that appears to be part of its culture.

About six months ago my 9 year old son joined a local martial arts group.  Until a recent event occurred, I was reasonably happy with how the instructor ran the classes, although I find the authoritarianism which seems to go with it a bit strange.  I say strange because this is not how my son would be taught at school or how he has been taught in any of the other out of school activities that he has and does pursue.

The circumstances of the event were as follows:
I arrived at the class with my son.  As we walked in, I noticed that the instructor was lying on the floor at the front of the class with his feet resting on the crouched body of one of the children.  There were giggles and laughter from that child, the other children in the class and from the three or four other parents that were there.

The instructor then said to my son, "Oh, you're late, come here".  I don't think we were late because the class had not started.  He instructed my son to crouch down so that he could rest his head on my son's back.  Some of the children in the class are also my son's schoolmates.  This all happened so quickly that although I felt uncomfortable about it, I did not know how to react to it before I left.  I had to leave straight away to collect another of my children from my child minder.

Subsequently, on reflection, I felt very angry about what had happened.  This action had humiliated my son and myself.  My son has taken part in many out of school activities over the years and I have only once before had a problem, which was dealt with immediately and professionally by the activity leader concerned.  I am not a serial complainer.

My son was embarrassed by this event.  Neither of us wanted to attend the following weeks' lesson and chose not to go.  My son wishes to continue with this particular martial art and wishes to attend this particular class because a number of his friends go there.  There is no other provider of this particular martial art in our region.  Because this is what my son wants, I intend to take him back to this class.

I emailed the instructor two days ago to complain about what I feel is an important child safeguarding issue.  I have not had a reply.  I have a feeling I will not get a reply.

What I want to know is:
Am I over-reacting?
Am I being too proud?
Is this sort of thing normal in martial arts classes?
How would you feel if this was your child?

Can you give me some guidance?

Michael.


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## jks9199

Have you watched many of the classes?  Did your son explain more about what was going on or why it made him uncomfortable?  I have concerns, based on your description, but your description still has some pretty big holes in it.  Did you ask any of the other parents what was going on?  It doesn't sound like the activity was physically harmful, and may even have been linked to some sort of lesson, though, as described, I'm kind of stumped what it could be.

The format of a martial arts class can run a gamut from very strict, very militaristically authoritarian to very informal, depending on the style and the teacher.  Most, not surprisingly, are somewhere in the middle.  Children's classes are often a little more formal, because the kids often need that structure to keep their focus.  And some minor embarrassment or humiliation is inevitable, as students fail to succeed at learning a new skill or otherwise get corrected for mistakes or behavioral lapses.  The key word there is MINOR; if it's something that keeps the student from wanting to come back the next week, there's a concern, and the instructor should be willing to talk to you about it.


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## Bill Mattocks

I cannot speak to the questions you are asking, but I can make a recommendation:

Speak to the instructor in person before or after class.  Do not return to class until the air has been cleared.  Be calm, have your thoughts in order, and be prepared to listen to the response with an open mind.  Email and phone calls are not appropriate for a situation such as this.


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## oftheherd1

Welcome to MT MichaelSourey.  I hope you find answers here that help.

I also hope you will let us know how this plays out for you and your son.  Especially since he seems to want to continue to study whatever martial art it is.


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## MAfreak

while its common everywhere to give kind of penalty for things like being late (but in my former school we didn't, it just can happen to everyone) one shouldn't forget that martial arts instructors are just people. like sports coaches or school teachers so the ones who forget that often are the martial arts instructors themselves. they aren't gods but some of them seem to act like they are. not sure about it but i personally would have taken my son home from it when seeing this. for me it would have looked like a power play of someone with mentally issues. if he does this while parents are there, i won't know what he does alone with the kids.


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## Touch Of Death

MichaelSourey said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would like some feedback about something that happened to my son.
> 
> I am new to the world of eastern martial arts and the deferential respect for authority that appears to be part of its culture.
> 
> About six months ago my 9 year old son joined a local martial arts group.  Until a recent event occurred, I was reasonably happy with how the instructor ran the classes, although I find the authoritarianism which seems to go with it a bit strange.  I say strange because this is not how my son would be taught at school or how he has been taught in any of the other out of school activities that he has and does pursue.
> 
> The circumstances of the event were as follows:
> I arrived at the class with my son.  As we walked in, I noticed that the instructor was lying on the floor at the front of the class with his feet resting on the crouched body of one of the children.  There were giggles and laughter from that child, the other children in the class and from the three or four other parents that were there.
> 
> The instructor then said to my son, "Oh, you're late, come here".  I don't think we were late because the class had not started.  He instructed my son to crouch down so that he could rest his head on my son's back.  Some of the children in the class are also my son's schoolmates.  This all happened so quickly that although I felt uncomfortable about it, I did not know how to react to it before I left.  I had to leave straight away to collect another of my children from my child minder.
> 
> Subsequently, on reflection, I felt very angry about what had happened.  This action had humiliated my son and myself.  My son has taken part in many out of school activities over the years and I have only once before had a problem, which was dealt with immediately and professionally by the activity leader concerned.  I am not a serial complainer.
> 
> My son was embarrassed by this event.  Neither of us wanted to attend the following weeks' lesson and chose not to go.  My son wishes to continue with this particular martial art and wishes to attend this particular class because a number of his friends go there.  There is no other provider of this particular martial art in our region.  Because this is what my son wants, I intend to take him back to this class.
> 
> I emailed the instructor two days ago to complain about what I feel is an important child safeguarding issue.  I have not had a reply.  I have a feeling I will not get a reply.
> 
> What I want to know is:
> Am I over-reacting?
> Am I being too proud?
> Is this sort of thing normal in martial arts classes?
> How would you feel if this was your child?
> 
> Can you give me some guidance?
> 
> Michael.


It does sound like you are about to quit. Maybe you aren't ready for this. Your son is, but not yourself.


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## geezer

My son's TKD instructor sometimes does stuff like that. And usually there are giggles coming from the other kids ...just like that. It's all done in a spirit of fun. Yeah, the class does have the trappings of old-school authoritarianism, but the instructor is actually a really gentle, good-humored guy and the kids love him. Parents too. Once when I got my kid to class late he threatened to make me do the punishment, whatever it was. Probably push-ups. We all had a good laugh.

Unfortunately, although the situation you described sounded similar, perhaps the _school atmosphere_ and culture is not.


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## Tony Dismukes

With regards to the authoritarian nature of the class, that varies quite a bit from school to school and from teacher to teacher. Some students appreciate it, others do not. (It's not just Eastern martial arts, you can find some of the same thing with some coaches of school sports, although the trappings tend to be less formal.)

In general, your kid should not expect to be humiliated in class - at least not unless he is having serious behavior problems in class, which does not seem to be the case from your description. That said, I'm not clear from your description exactly what the instructor was doing, what the point of it was, or why you or your son would find it humiliating.


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## MichaelSourey

To: jks9199
I have watched enough of the classes to be reasonably happy about how they are run.  I have also attended two grading sessions and a small tournament held for students within this instructor's academy.

Regarding what was going on when we arrived, I admit that I do not know the context of what was happening.  I have asked my son if he knows any more about what was happening when we walked in the room but he knows no more than I do.  As to why it made him feel uncomfortable, he said that it is not something that normally happens to him.  I may be putting words into his mouth, but what I think he means is that this is not normal behaviour, I can't help but agree with this.

I did not ask any of the other parents what was going on, so again I do not know the context of the situation.  The activity was not physically harmful, however I find myself agreeing with MAfreak that this instructor does seem to fit the description of someone who has a high opinion of himself.  From what I can make out he does appear to be very accomplished within the sport, he is the chief instructor of his academy which has a handful of branches around the country.

I struggle to see how this activity would have any kind of positive, beneficial lesson to it.  The strictness of the lessons I think is OK, it is firm enough that the lessons achieve progress but still have an element of fun to them.  However, just sometimes things just don't seem to be quite right.  Sometimes there seems to be just a little bit too much berating of the class in general, I find myself coming back to MAfreak's comment, berating to a point to which I start wondering what he is trying to achieve.  Other parents seem happy and relaxed about it as far as I can tell.

Regarding the level of the humiliation that my son suffered, I don't regard it as serious, just inappropriate, pointless and unnecessarily undermining his confidence.

To MAfreak:
Just wanted to mention that there are always some parents who sit in throughout the class.

To: Bill Mattocks
I think your advice is spot on.  Thank you.  I will do this.

To: Touch Of Death
You could be right.

To: geezer
Your description of your son's class seems very much like my son's class and instructor.  However, sometimes I just think that either his passion for the subject or his sense of status leads him to make incorrect judgements about how he is allowed to behave.  Generally nothing too serious, just over the top enough to make me wonder what he's trying to achieve.

If anyone has any further thoughts, please let me know.


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## Touch Of Death

My further thought is, don't be late.


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## TwentyThree

Martial arts schools tend to the more authoritarian side of things your child may be involved in, mainly because one of the key things being taught to children in the martial arts, outside of physical fitness, is personal discipline.  Please understand that these rules exist, for the most part, for the benefit of students to develop good habits, as well as for safety and wellness issues.  Your child is learning stuff that can hurt himself and other people if he does _not_ have discipline.

It's totally normal for a school to have penalties for breaking various rules (such as being late, or engaging in horseplay, or not paying attention when the instructor is speaking, etc.).  These penalties can run the gamut from a lap around the school floor or push-ups to things like you describe in your post, or just a gentle admonishment like, "Mr. Smith, so kind of you to join us for class".

Certainly, speak up to the instructor if you feel the punishment was inappropriate.  I would note, however, if the entire class was already there when you walked in, you were late to class and probably didn't realize it.  I also do not believe your son was humiliated - _you _may have been, after all, your son gets to class when you get him there, right? I think the instructor was trying to do it in a way that the class - including those being "punished" - would find it funny (as they apparently did, going by what you wrote).

Would you have felt differently if your son had been held off to the side to do 10 pushups before joining class or had to run a lap?


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## JowGaWolf

Here's my take on it.  A little embarrassment and humiliation is healthy so long as it's not done in an abusive manner. Learning to deal with these things at a young age will make them a stronger adult.  Compared to the embarrassment and humiliation that kids get from bullies, your scenario sounds like a unique way to encourage people to be early to class.  If you can't be early to class then let the teacher know so that your child isn't singled out for not being able to be on time.   

Teachers have to set expectations and have authority and punishments in class.  Traditionally it would have been some kind of physical punishment but in today's world teacher's have to use other methods.  It sounds like you may need to interact with the teacher more so that you can know the teacher as a person.  All of the parents in my school know me personally so they would know right away if I was being a jerk or out of line with my actions.

But then again kung fu schools aren't as strict as Japanese and Korean martial arts schools.


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## Andrew Green

Martial arts instructors are all over the map when it comes to how they approach discipline.  Generally there is not formal training in how to be a instructor (sometimes there is, but often not) and parent's expectations vary just as much.  Some parents want a drill instructor for a instructor and that idea is what draws them to the martial arts.  Others want a more "natural" sense of discipline and respect.  

If you disagree with a schools philosophy go try another, that's fine.  We all do things different and no school is perfect for everyone.  If it was one incident without context I wouldn't make a decision on that, but talk to the instructor.


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## MichaelSourey

To: TwentyThree

Yes, I understand the reason for personal discipline in respect of this sport.  I agree with you.

If the punishment had been to run a lap around the floor or do push ups for something that *he* had done wrong, I would have been OK with this.  This sort of thing has happened in other activities he has been involved in and I have not had a problem with it.

My son did say that he was embarrassed.

Yes, I was humiliated.  You are right, my son gets to class when I get him there.  If, however, the instructor has a problem with that he should speak to me directly about it, not punish my son.

I think you are probably right that the instructor was trying to do it in a way that all participants would find funny.  One of my reasons for starting this thread is to try and work out if I have misjudged my reaction to the situation.

To: JowGaWolf & Andrew Green
Thank you for your comments they have helped me form a more rounded view of the situation.


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## Steve

My opinion is to always, always trust your gut when it comes to your kids.  Your post gives me the impression that you are a thoughtful parent, and considering you have not had any issues like this before in other activities, I would absolutely recommend that you trust your instincts.  If this made you uncomfortable in the moment, and it made your child feel bad, action is warranted. 

To be clear, I'm not advocating an OVER-reaction.  But some degree of advocacy is absolutely warranted.  

You mention that your son wants to keep training.  Is he interested in returning to this school, or is he giving you signs that he'd prefer to find another school?  If the former, I think Bill's suggestion is very sound.  If the latter, consider that this person is being paid by you for a service.  Don't fall in for the mumbo jumbo, eastern culture BS that is sometimes being sold.  You are not in Asia, and as a parent, you have every right to insist that your children are treated in a manner you deem appropriate.  If not, you can take your business to another school. 

Good luck, and as others have said, let us know how this works out, if you can.


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## Steve

I just reread the op and you mention that you aren't expecting a response from the instructor to your complaint.  That's not a good sign.


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## pgsmith

MichaelSourey said:


> If the punishment had been to run a lap around the floor or do push ups for something that *he* had done wrong, I would have been OK with this. This sort of thing has happened in other activities he has been involved in and I have not had a problem with it.
> 
> My son did say that he was embarrassed.
> 
> Yes, I was humiliated. You are right, my son gets to class when I get him there. If, however, the instructor has a problem with that he should speak to me directly about it, not punish my son.
> 
> I think you are probably right that the instructor was trying to do it in a way that all participants would find funny. One of my reasons for starting this thread is to try and work out if I have misjudged my reaction to the situation.



  Hi Michael,
  I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment to give you something to think about ...
  I've not taught martial arts to kids as the martial arts I do are not conducive to such. However, I was a scout leader for many years, and worked with a great many kids. My suggestion would be to stop and think about why this bothers you. You do mention that *you* were humiliated, so I get the feeling that there's a bit of transference happening here. You also have made a point that it wasn't your son's fault that he was late, so he had no responsibility for it. These are two things that can interfere with your son's personal growth and the development of his decision making skills. I have had many parents that have gotten upset with me because of how I treated their Scouts, since it wasn't how *they* treated them. I also got a lot of flak because things weren't 'fair' and 'even'. One of the things that parents objected to was consequences for being late, since the vast majority did not drive themselves. However, I held the boys responsible since that's what the world is going to do and my job was to ready them for that. My mantra for my Scouts was "never make excuses", and it worked pretty well.


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## Gerry Seymour

geezer said:


> My son's TKD instructor sometimes does stuff like that. And usually there are giggles coming from the other kids ...just like that. It's all done in a spirit of fun. Yeah, the class does have the trappings of old-school authoritarianism, but the instructor is actually a really gentle, good-humored guy and the kids love him. Parents too. Once when I got my kid to class late he threatened to make me do the punishment, whatever it was. Probably push-ups. We all had a good laugh.
> 
> Unfortunately, although the situation you described sounded similar, perhaps the _school atmosphere_ and culture is not.


This was my initial reaction. Given no personal insight into the school, atmosphere, or the incident, it all sounded fairly harmless. When the OP walked in, the instructor appeared to be goofing off "punishing" one of the kids with something all the kids (including the one being "punished") thought was funny. The OP walked in with his son, and the son got pulled into the situation. Perhaps the son's embarrassment actually happened because he didn't understand what was going on (since it clearly started before he walked in) or even because of his father's reaction to it. Or, it could be much different than what I'm picturing.

To the OP: you might want to get a gut-check from one of the other parents. Ask what was going on before you walked in. If it was an authoritarian teacher goofing off (all the strict ones I know actually do this with kids sometimes), they probably got to see it and had a better view since they were there earlier than you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

I have not read all the comments yet, just skimmed them, but read the op fully. Going to reply now as I will forget if I dont, so my apologies if I'm repeating anything.
I have four thoughts on this. 
The first is that while there is variety in terms of authoritarianism, MA in general will be more so than other youth sports. It's expected when you are having to teach people something that is technical and physical, and also involves moral values.

The second is that judging from the other parents reactions, there was probably no maliciousness to it. He was likely doing it joking around and either got carried away or wanted to include your child so he did not feel left out. Without knowing your child I can't say that for sure, but it is my guess.

Third, humility is good for a child, especially in a controlled session. If the embarassment is mainly in him and not the other kids laughing at him (from what I gather from your statement) it is likely a good way for him to deal with it. 

Finally, I agree with pgsmith-if I was the instructor I would blame the student for the transgression over the parent (this mainly would apply if you were actually late). My dojo does this, and I do the same in my boy scout troop. While the kid isn't directly responsible, the responsibility is theirs to show up on time,  and I've found that they can generally get their parents to make arrangements so that they arrive on time, in both places. It also helps with consistency in teaching responsibility, because it prevents them from placing blame on someone one else in other situations where they are at fault, because they know that will not be effective, and it is better to own up to it themselves.


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## Lameman

The hard truth, that no parent wants to hear... If your son is 9 years old, that means you probably have another 4 years to teach him to be self sufficient. Different people mature at different rates, but don't expect him to move out before he starts being independant. You are probably already seeing the early signs. My recommendation, if he is offended then he should seek out and talk to his instructor on his own. Let him take care of his own problems. Your role as protector has nearly reached its end, when that happens, he needs to have the skills to protect himself. Talk to your son, give advice, let him him handle it if he wants to, allow him to learn, allow him to grow. Further, this will help you with the sometimes difficult transition from protector to advisor. And that can make the teenage years go a lot smoother.


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## Flatfish

Just a quick comment on how the Dojang we attend handles disciplinary issues:

Depending on the situation, the whole class is addressed about issues without singling anyone out (even if it's just one kid that misbehaves). That gives everyone a chance to self correct.
Direct warnings if children don't participate, goof off etc.
Pushups or 10 mins of sitting out if the warnings bear no fruit
Taking away a belt for a couple of weeks and the student will have to earn it back over time with good behavior (this for serious stuff only, like ignoring absolute no nos in class)

In any of these cases kids would be embarrassed but that is the point isn't it?

I can't comment on the OP's situation directly because I feel I do not have enough information as to what exactly happened.


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## MichaelSourey

What I have decided to do for now:
After discussing this with my son, he has told me that he wants to continue with lessons with this instructor.  I have decided to swallow my indignation and pride and take my son early to the next scheduled lesson.  I will try to see if the instructor will agree to have a discussion with myself and my son.  I will try to manage the situation towards a positive outcome.

To: Steve
My son specifically wishes to pursue this particular martial art, he has been persuaded that it is superior to others, and he has school friends who attend this particular class.  There is limited provision of classes for this particular martial art in my area, I suspect there is even less for children.

I agree with you that I am paying for a service and that it is reasonable for me to expect a high standard of service. In terms of tuition I am happy, in terms of responding to my complaint there has been no response, I feel that this is very unprofessional.

To: pgsmith & kempodisciple
In principle I agree with you in respect of possible penalties for lateness, but I would not expect this level of responsibility until my child was old enough to use public transport to get to lessons himself.  I can't see him doing this until he is at least twelve.

To: gpseymour
I am beginning to wonder if I have over-reacted to this, from my experience of this particular tutor, I think your description of "an authoritarian teacher goofing off" may be appropriate.  If I can, I will see if I can catch other parents to get their views on the situation.

To: lameman
I don't think my son is old enough yet to have a discussion with the instructor by himself, but in response to your suggestion I will include him in the discussion I hope to have with the instructor.

In general, our times of arrival for lessons have either been in good time, 5 to 10 minutes before the lesson is due to start, or just in time for the start.  We have never been substantially late.  For special events such as my son's two grading sessions and a tournament we have been early.

Something that I sense is an underlying theme to this thread is whether I am taking these martial arts lessons for my son seriously.  To be honest, I don't.  To me these lessons are a non-essential, fun, after school activity that my son can do with some of his friends.  I see the value of learning self-defense (I have no self defense skills).  I do commit to getting my son to lessons, gradings etc because this is something he wants to do.  However, this is all it is to me.  To me, this is not like his day time schooling which is geniunely important.  It is just is not the same thing.


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## JowGaWolf

Things should be ok as long as the embarrassment and humiliation isn't being done to tear the student down.  It sound different from when kids laugh at each other because a child is having a difficult time learning a technique.
Usually if it's really bad for a child, he or she won't be eager to return.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

I think this is a good way to go about it. I'm glad you're including your son in the conversation, and that you are planning on to do it away from the other students/parents.


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## Tez3

Just one point, _anything_ your child is learning is as important as academic learning, sometimes it's even more so because academic learning doesn't often teach self reliance, self confidence, teamwork as well as fun, relaxation and the ability to be themselves. It doesn't matter what out of school activity it is, it's important. Academic learing is important but it's not a lot of use unless you are also a well rounded person. If two people go for a job and they have the same academic qualifications the one who gets the job will be the one with hobbies and interest which show them to have more qualities than just the ability to pass exams.


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## lklawson

MichaelSourey said:


> The circumstances of the event were as follows:
> I arrived at the class with my son.  As we walked in, I noticed that the instructor was lying on the floor at the front of the class with his feet resting on the crouched body of one of the children.  There were giggles and laughter from that child, the other children in the class and from the three or four other parents that were there.
> 
> The instructor then said to my son, "Oh, you're late, come here".  I don't think we were late because the class had not started.  He instructed my son to crouch down so that he could rest his head on my son's back.


When I read "humiliated" in the subject I thought someone had pantsed the kid or sprayed water on his crotch or something.

Leaning against him?

Sounds a bit odd but I guess we might have different definitions of humiliation.

Just remember, every snowflake is unique and beautiful.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## MichaelSourey

Tez3 said:


> Just one point, _anything_ your child is learning is as important as academic learning, sometimes it's even more so because academic learning doesn't often teach self reliance, self confidence, teamwork as well as fun, relaxation and the ability to be themselves. It doesn't matter what out of school activity it is, it's important. Academic learing is important but it's not a lot of use unless you are also a well rounded person. If two people go for a job and they have the same academic qualifications the one who gets the job will be the one with hobbies and interest which show them to have more qualities than just the ability to pass exams.



Point taken.


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## Tez3

lklawson said:


> had pantsed the kid



What's that then?  bear in mind to us over here 'pants' are underwear.


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> What's that then?  bear in mind to us over here 'pants' are underwear.


I hear, there's a place in France...


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## GiYu - Todd

I would suspect if the other parents who regularly stay and watch the entire class didn't have a concern for what was going on, then it probably wasn't anything that bad.  I would further suspect that since the kids were giggling about it, they didn't feel it was bad either, lest their giggles would draw attention of the instructor in question and join in the punishment.  If you had a question, you could have asked one of the other parents about what was going on, and hopefully gotten a satisfactory answer. 

Our instructors often goof off a bit with the students before class begins.  It helps everyone relax a bit and is good bonding time.  Usually, the kids are well behaved, but sometimes they just aren't, and we have to take measures to correct them.  It's typically pretty mild stuff (laps, pushups, etc), but helps them understand where the behavioral boundaries lie. 

We typically hold the kids responsible for themselves, even if it's their parent's fault.  It's easy to just call ahead and say you're running a few minutes late... and no longer have it be an unexcused tardiness (so no punishment).  We try to set high standards for our kids because we want them to learn to be responsible citizens.  That means being on time (whether arriving to class or returning from a water break), following directions, being respectful of their training partners and instructors.  The "fighting skills" are actually a lower priority in many schools than developing kids' character. 

I hope you can find a satisfactory resolution.


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## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> What's that then?  bear in mind to us over here 'pants' are underwear.


To yank down the victim's trousers, displaying the under-pants to the world.  Sometimes the under-pants are part of the yanking, displaying the victim's goods to the world.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve

MichaelSourey said:


> Something that I sense is an underlying theme to this thread is whether I am taking these martial arts lessons for my son seriously.  To be honest, I don't.  To me these lessons are a non-essential, fun, after school activity that my son can do with some of his friends.  I see the value of learning self-defense (I have no self defense skills).  I do commit to getting my son to lessons, gradings etc because this is something he wants to do.  However, this is all it is to me.  To me, this is not like his day time schooling which is geniunely important.  It is just is not the same thing.


I know that there are many different perspectives here, but I'll say once again that this isn't any different than ANY other sport or athletic activity. 

I think you have a very healthy attitude. I'm glad to see that you are keeping these lessons in perspective and frankly, I disagree completely with the idea that you should be taking these lessons seriously at all... or at least any more seriously than any other youth activity.  The reality is that your son is likely NOT learning any practical self defense, and will not be a killer ninja by the time he's 12 (even if he does have a black belt).  That said, there is a ton of value in kids participating in sports and outside activities that they enjoy and which provide healthy environments for them to develop, and if he enjoys this particular activity, awesome. 

What your son should be learning (hopefully) are the same things that he would get from any quality coach or teacher, whether in scouts, little league, or learning to play the tuba. 

If your guy tries to market it as something MORE or different from little league baseball, football, or any other youth activity, trust your instincts.   If he's doing things that you would find unacceptable from the scout leader, chess team coach, teacher or any other adult, don't let your gut reaction be influenced by others.  And that goes for us strangers or, frankly, other parents.  We have an epidemic of poor parenting in this country.  I wouldn't presume that because other parents are okay with something, they are wise to be so.


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## Tez3

so, Yanks pulling down pants 

Well, that would be humiliating and certainly cause to do more than complain, leaning against someone, not so much.


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## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> so, Yanks pulling down pants
> 
> Well, that would be humiliating and certainly cause to do more than complain, leaning against someone, not so much.


When I was young it was something which school children under the age of about 12 sometimes did to each other in order to embarrass or humiliate the victim (sometimes their friends).  It would sometimes precipitate a fight.  No adult would ever consider doing it to a child, but if they were out at a pub and drunk enough, they might try doing it to their (equally drunk) friend.

I'm struggling to understand how a teacher leaning his head against a student is "humiliating."  I agree that it is "odd" and unusual but "humiliating?"  Not unless the definition of "humiliating" has changed to "any attention which is not utterly praising and fawning" or something.

Musta been a micro-aggression.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Humiliating: causing someone to feel ashamed and foolish by injuring their dignity and self-respect.

If he caused the student to feel ashamed about being late, or it injured his dignity by using him as an headrest, it is humiliating. Personally, I think the kid probably only felt embarrassment, but if he has enough dignity it's possible.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Steve said:


> I know that there are many different perspectives here, but I'll say once again that this isn't any different than ANY other sport or athletic activity.
> 
> I think you have a very healthy attitude. I'm glad to see that you are keeping these lessons in perspective and frankly, I disagree completely with the idea that you should be taking these lessons seriously at all... or at least any more seriously than any other youth activity.  The reality is that your son is likely NOT learning any practical self defense, and will not be a killer ninja by the time he's 12 (even if he does have a black belt).  That said, there is a ton of value in kids participating in sports and outside activities that they enjoy and which provide healthy environments for them to develop, and if he enjoys this particular activity, awesome.
> 
> What your son should be learning (hopefully) are the same things that he would get from any quality coach or teacher, whether in scouts, little league, or learning to play the tuba.
> 
> If your guy tries to market it as something MORE or different from little league baseball, football, or any other youth activity, trust your instincts.   If he's doing things that you would find unacceptable from the scout leader, chess team coach, teacher or any other adult, don't let your gut reaction be influenced by others.  And that goes for us strangers or, frankly, other parents.  We have an epidemic of poor parenting in this country.  I wouldn't presume that because other parents are okay with something, they are wise to be so.


Don't limit people. That is what it is to you, and you only. Perhaps it is a good suggestion, but some of us were trained ninjas, at a very early age.


----------



## Steve

Touch Of Death said:


> Don't limit people. That is what it is to you, and you only. Perhaps it is a good suggestion, but some of us were trained ninjas, at a very early age.


How is advising someone to trust their instincts as a parent limiting?


----------



## Touch Of Death

Steve said:


> How is advising someone to trust their instincts as a parent limiting?


You wrote a bunch of other stuff.


----------



## Touch Of Death

I am just saying Martial Arts can be your whole life, if you so desire. Why say it is like the friggin Cub Scouts?


----------



## Steve

Touch Of Death said:


> You wrote a bunch of other stuff.


That's true.  Which stuff do you find limiting?


----------



## Steve

Touch Of Death said:


> I am just saying Martial Arts can be your whole life, if you so desire. Why say it is like the friggin Cub Scouts?


Ask Tez about the scouts, but I'm pretty sure it's a worthwhile, lifetime endeavor for those who choose it.  I work with a person who is a lifetime member of the girl scouts and is still active at close to 60.  Playing a musical instrument can be your whole life.   Nothing makes martial arts more or less than any worthwhile endeavor, whether it's music, dance, art, any sport or athletic activity.   

It's interesting that you find me to be the one limiting others, when you are so arrogantly dismissive of scouting.  You're a strange dude.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Steve said:


> That's true.  Which stuff do you find limiting?


I am saying it is more than little league and playing the tuba; so, if he "tries" to market it as such, he would be correct, Sir.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Steve said:


> Ask Tez about the scouts, but I'm pretty sure it's a worthwhile, lifetime endeavor for those who choose it.  I work with a person who is a lifetime member of the girl scouts and is still active at close to 60.  Playing a musical instrument can be your whole life.   Nothing makes martial arts more or less than any worthwhile endeavor, whether it's music, dance, art, any sport or athletic activity.
> 
> It's interesting that you find me to be the one limiting others, when you are so arrogantly dismissive of scouting.  You're a strange dude.


I have found you think that about a lot of us; so, I am in good company.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Why aren't you trolling the Tuba forum?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Steve said:


> I know that there are many different perspectives here, but I'll say once again that this isn't any different than ANY other sport or athletic activity.
> 
> I think you have a very healthy attitude. I'm glad to see that you are keeping these lessons in perspective and frankly, I disagree completely with the idea that you should be taking these lessons seriously at all... or at least any more seriously than any other youth activity.  The reality is that your son is likely NOT learning any practical self defense, and will not be a killer ninja by the time he's 12 (even if he does have a black belt).  That said, there is a ton of value in kids participating in sports and outside activities that they enjoy and which provide healthy environments for them to develop, and if he enjoys this particular activity, awesome.
> 
> What your son should be learning (hopefully) are the same things that he would get from any quality coach or teacher, whether in scouts, little league, or learning to play the tuba.
> 
> If your guy tries to market it as something MORE or different from little league baseball, football, or any other youth activity, trust your instincts.   If he's doing things that you would find unacceptable from the scout leader, chess team coach, teacher or any other adult, don't let your gut reaction be influenced by others.  And that goes for us strangers or, frankly, other parents.  We have an epidemic of poor parenting in this country.  I wouldn't presume that because other parents are okay with something, they are wise to be so.


Your post hurts my eyes.  The part about not learning practical self defense. How dare you. Lol. Unfortunately I'm finding out that what you say is true.  I knew it was bad, but I didn't think it was as bad as your statement until I started teaching kids from belted systems.  But it's true. Many parents don't put their child in martial arts to learn self defense.  some only put them in for the discipline and could care less if their child could actually fight.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Some don't even put them in for discipline. Its an hour a day three days a week where they have a free babysitter. That's all they care about.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> Many parents don't put their child in martial arts to learn self defense. some only put them in for the discipline and could care less if their child could actually fight.



Parents put their children in a martial arts class for a number of reasons, and just as many adults don't train for self defence, the children don't also go to learn that. It's not always about discipline either. Many parents don't want their children to fight, just as again many adults don't want to fight.
Teaching children martial arts is hugely rewarding, we rarely have parents come for the discipline, they come because the child wants to learn martial arts and there's a lot to like in that. Some parents can be 'serious' about martial arts, wanting their child to excel but my belief is that every single child is good at something and it may take a while to find that something but it's worth looking.
One should be serious about what activities your child does even when it's for fun, that means taking it seriously as in not belittling a child for it's choices ( if your son wants to knit and sew,  if your daughter wants to build cars etc), you should take having fun seriously, it's something kids ( and adults should do). If your child finds martial arts fun and enjoyable then that is an end in itself, you don't actually need more.
'Serious' doesn't mean being po faced and intense, it means recognising that your child finds an activity worthwhile and you shouldn't cut their classes/games/meetings etc just because you can't be bothered to take them or you'd rather go shopping, 'serious' means understanding what the activity means to the child and going with it, encouraging them and not pushing them. It also means not being disappointed when a young child has had enough and wants to try something else, it's means they are still looking for their 'thing'.


----------



## MichaelSourey

Touch Of Death said:


> I am just saying Martial Arts can be your whole life, if you so desire. Why say it is like the friggin Cub Scouts?


Now I get where you're coming from.


----------



## MichaelSourey

Tez3 said:


> Parents put their children in a martial arts class for a number of reasons, and just as many adults don't train for self defence, the children don't also go to learn that. It's not always about discipline either. Many parents don't want their children to fight, just as again many adults don't want to fight.
> Teaching children martial arts is hugely rewarding, we rarely have parents come for the discipline, they come because the child wants to learn martial arts and there's a lot to like in that. Some parents can be 'serious' about martial arts, wanting their child to excel but my belief is that every single child is good at something and it may take a while to find that something but it's worth looking.
> One should be serious about what activities your child does even when it's for fun, that means taking it seriously as in not belittling a child for it's choices ( if your son wants to knit and sew,  if your daughter wants to build cars etc), you should take having fun seriously, it's something kids ( and adults should do). If your child finds martial arts fun and enjoyable then that is an end in itself, you don't actually need more.
> 'Serious' doesn't mean being po faced and intense, it means recognising that your child finds an activity worthwhile and you shouldn't cut their classes/games/meetings etc just because you can't be bothered to take them or you'd rather go shopping, 'serious' means understanding what the activity means to the child and going with it, encouraging them and not pushing them. It also means not being disappointed when a young child has had enough and wants to try something else, it's means they are still looking for their 'thing'.



That read like poetry. Wonderful!


----------



## Steve

Touch Of Death said:


> I am saying it is more than little league and playing the tuba; so, if he "tries" to market it as such, he would be correct, Sir.


So, we disagree.  I'm good with that.  You have an opinion that is different than mine.  What's the problem?  To be clear, I'm not trying to change your opinion.  Have at it.    I honestly don't even know how to respond to the rest of your comments. 


JowGaWolf said:


> Your post hurts my eyes.  The part about not learning practical self defense. How dare you. Lol. Unfortunately I'm finding out that what you say is true.  I knew it was bad, but I didn't think it was as bad as your statement until I started teaching kids from belted systems.  But it's true. Many parents don't put their child in martial arts to learn self defense.  some only put them in for the discipline and could care less if their child could actually fight.


Whoa.  Self defense is not actually fighting... suggesting that the two are synonymous will get you into big trouble around here! 

Seriously, though, my point is that a 12 year old may be a gifted athlete, but there is danger in overconfidence.  I've seen some kids just get wrecked when they realize that their martial arts skills don't work as well as they have been led to believe. 

But the main point is that martial arts is a worthwhile endeavor for kids, but no more or less worthwhile than any other childhood activity.  Tez has it spot on.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Quite honestly It doesn't sound anything bad at all. For when you walked it was probably just a simple game before class and if none of the other parents were bothered i doubt it was anything to be majorly worried about. As for the other action again doesn't seem wrong at all you say got him to crouch down. That could've simply been get into a stance (in my martial art there's a stance called a horse stance which is a lot like a crouch and it hurts the legs after a while and the other bit could've been simply a joke to keep it light hearted. But I can't say for absolute sure but let's be honest no instructor is really going to try and be outright malicious or bullying with lots of parents around and since no one seemed to care I doubt it's a problem


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> Parents put their children in a martial arts class for a number of reasons, and just as many adults don't train for self defence, the children don't also go to learn that. It's not always about discipline either. Many parents don't want their children to fight, just as again many adults don't want to fight.
> Teaching children martial arts is hugely rewarding, we rarely have parents come for the discipline, they come because the child wants to learn martial arts and there's a lot to like in that. Some parents can be 'serious' about martial arts, wanting their child to excel but my belief is that every single child is good at something and it may take a while to find that something but it's worth looking.
> One should be serious about what activities your child does even when it's for fun, that means taking it seriously as in not belittling a child for it's choices ( if your son wants to knit and sew,  if your daughter wants to build cars etc), you should take having fun seriously, it's something kids ( and adults should do). If your child finds martial arts fun and enjoyable then that is an end in itself, you don't actually need more.
> 'Serious' doesn't mean being po faced and intense, it means recognising that your child finds an activity worthwhile and you shouldn't cut their classes/games/meetings etc just because you can't be bothered to take them or you'd rather go shopping, 'serious' means understanding what the activity means to the child and going with it, encouraging them and not pushing them. It also means not being disappointed when a young child has had enough and wants to try something else, it's means they are still looking for their 'thing'.


I wish I could like this twice.  Very well said.


----------



## Tez3

MichaelSourey said:


> That read like poetry. Wonderful!



Thank you, you are very kind. I am passionate about giving children the best experiences we can, apart from teaching martial arts I'm also in Girl Guiding, I take them in Rainbows ( from 5-7), Brownies (7-10) and Guides ( 10-14), we do amazing things and have adventures. We camp, we travel, we make things, we learn, we have enormous fun and we grow ( all of us not just the girls lol). When the girls are older, they travel to different countries helping and teaching, we have a long tradition of service too, (Girl Guides followed the troops who landed in France after the D Day landings to look after the civilians and go on to look after the camp survivors. In the Ebola epidemic in Africa, Gudies went from village to village to teach hygiene, there's much much more too.) I can go on for pages lol.

Besides we have to be nice to the children, they will be looking after us when we are old 

Anyway, I'd go with what your son wants as long as after you speak to the instructor it seems fine. He may not stick at martial arts but there's plenty of things out there to choose.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> Whoa.  Self defense is not actually fighting...



Sure it is. While there is a lot more to self defense than fighting, fighting is certainly part of what the term includes.



Steve said:


> suggesting that the two are synonymous will get you into big trouble around here!



I doubt it...



Steve said:


> Seriously, though, my point is that a 12 year old may be a gifted athlete, but there is danger in overconfidence.  I've seen some kids just get wrecked when they realize that their martial arts skills don't work as well as they have been led to believe.



Absolutely. And as has been pointed out, lots of people (of all ages) study martial arts for lots of reasons. Sometimes self defense is part of that, sometimes it's not.



Steve said:


> But the main point is that martial arts is a worthwhile endeavor for kids, but no more or less worthwhile than any other childhood activity.  Tez has it spot on.



It's a worthwhile endeavor for anyone, of any age.


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure it is. While there is a lot more to self defense than fighting, fighting is certainly part of what the term includes.
> 
> I doubt it...


youre kidding.   Right?  I think that this depends entirely on who you are and where you say it.  But that statement was intended to be tongue in cheek.   Didn't you see my smiley face?  


> Absolutely. And as has been pointed out, lots of people (of all ages) study martial arts for lots of reasons. Sometimes self defense is part of that, sometimes it's not.


I don't understand what I wrote that prompted this response. 





> It's a worthwhile endeavor for anyone, of any age.


but we aren't in a thread about anyone of any age, DD.  why are you bringing this up? This is a thread about a child in a martial arts class.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Thank you, you are very kind. I am passionate about giving children the best experiences we can, apart from teaching martial arts I'm also in Girl Guiding, I take them in Rainbows ( from 5-7), Brownies (7-10) and Guides ( 10-14), we do amazing things and have adventures. We camp, we travel, we make things, we learn, we have enormous fun and we grow ( all of us not just the girls lol). When the girls are older, they travel to different countries helping and teaching, we have a long tradition of service too, (Girl Guides followed the troops who landed in France after the D Day landings to look after the civilians and go on to look after the camp survivors. In the Ebola epidemic in Africa, Gudies went from village to village to teach hygiene, there's much much more too.) I can go on for pages lol.
> 
> Besides we have to be nice to the children, they will be looking after us when we are old
> 
> Anyway, I'd go with what your son wants as long as after you speak to the instructor it seems fine. He may not stick at martial arts but there's plenty of things out there to choose.


I'm passionate about giving kids the best experience, too. That's why I don't train kids.


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## Buka

Kids.......they're those loud, small, sticky things, right? What a pain they are to teach. Teach them for ten, fifteen years, you know, just getting warmed up, and suddenly, POOF, they're people. And you never really saw it coming.

Next thing you know they're bringing in some other loud, small, sticky thing and introducing you to their son. Who, more often than not, usually uppercuts like his mother.

MichaelSourey, he'll probably be fine, just stay involved and keep being Dad.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Parents put their children in a martial arts class for a number of reasons, and just as many adults don't train for self defence, the children don't also go to learn that. It's not always about discipline either. Many parents don't want their children to fight, just as again many adults don't want to fight.
> Teaching children martial arts is hugely rewarding, we rarely have parents come for the discipline, they come because the child wants to learn martial arts and there's a lot to like in that. Some parents can be 'serious' about martial arts, wanting their child to excel but my belief is that every single child is good at something and it may take a while to find that something but it's worth looking.
> One should be serious about what activities your child does even when it's for fun, that means taking it seriously as in not belittling a child for it's choices ( if your son wants to knit and sew,  if your daughter wants to build cars etc), you should take having fun seriously, it's something kids ( and adults should do). If your child finds martial arts fun and enjoyable then that is an end in itself, you don't actually need more.
> 'Serious' doesn't mean being po faced and intense, it means recognising that your child finds an activity worthwhile and you shouldn't cut their classes/games/meetings etc just because you can't be bothered to take them or you'd rather go shopping, 'serious' means understanding what the activity means to the child and going with it, encouraging them and not pushing them. It also means not being disappointed when a young child has had enough and wants to try something else, it's means they are still looking for their 'thing'.


I agree with you for the most part.  It's just for me I was raised to put real effort into everything I do.  If I don't want to put real effort into it then I don't need to waste my time doing the activity.  If I take a martial arts then I take it for the purpose learning the value of it both as a self defense and as a life experience.  I can't separate the 2, because part of that life experience includes learning how to use it to defend myself, which is what many traditional martial arts are about.  Not only do I get good life experience from the hardship of training, but I also get the physical and mental development that comes from training.  If all I want is a colored belt and no real training, then I can save my time and money and just buy a black belt.  I would still have crappy fighting and self-defense skills and I would still miss the experience of the journey.  It just wouldn't take me many years and tons of money to get to that same point by not putting real effort into my training.

I worked in youth development for a little more than 20 years and I can tell you that many children aren't going to see the importance of certain activities.  There are things that my parents made me do and I hated it. But as I got older, the importance of those experiences that I didn't like as a child became clearer. There were things that I didn't want to do but I was glad that my parents made me do it.  I have had kids say the same things, that I was strict with them and made them learn about computers and how they fought me every step of the way to not learn. As they got older, they began to understand why I wanted them to learn those skills and were glad that I forced them to learn it.
It's good for children to choose some things, but it's up to the parents to make sure that the child learns important life skills even if it requires the child to do things that they may not like or find value in now, but will find value in later on in life.

For me self-defense is just one of those things. There's no excuse or reason in my book for a child or a person in general to not know how to protect themselves physically.  Every animal in the world learns how to do this on some kind of level, avoidance if possible, physical defense if necessary. But some humans do just the opposite.  They literally take the position that they don't need to know how to protect themselves or that there is no value in it.  

The perspective for parents shouldn't be about "Not wanting their kids to fight"  It should be about "if their kids had no choice, could they fight to protect themselves."  There is a different between "Not wanting to fight" and "Not able to fight."  Learning how to fight doesn't mean the child is going to now be in street fights all the time. That's what the other life lessons and conversations with the child are for.

My son doesn't like Kung Fu but I train him with it until I'm satisfied that he has at least learned the basic skills.  If he never needs the skills then great, nothing is lost.  However, if a day comes where he's forced to used those fighting skills, he'll be glad that he has them.  It's like a life jacket.  No one thinks they will need one or that they are important until the ship starts sinking.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> I can tell you that many children aren't going to see the importance of certain activities.



Why should they see the importance *to you* of activities?  some activities have what appears to be no or little importance, daydreaming for example but are actually very important for a child's development. 



JowGaWolf said:


> They literally take the position that they don't need to know how to protect themselves or that there is no value in it.



For many such as Quakers this is a matter of faith and belief, pacifist to the core they will not fight. Many people do not believe in fighting and will stick to that position, that is their right and should no more be judged for that than you should for making your children fight.



JowGaWolf said:


> "Not wanting their kids to fight" It should be about "if their kids had no choice, could they fight to protect themselves." There is a different between "Not wanting to fight" and "Not able to fight." Learning how to fight doesn't mean the child is going to now be in street fights all the time. That's what the other life lessons and conversations with the child are for.



We come from very different societies, fighting for most parents here is something alien, something they have never needed to do and don't see the need for their children to do, like the gun and being armed issues it's something not considered here and in fact not in a lot of other places either. that's not sticking our heads in the sand by the way but a recognition that we live differently.


----------



## ballen0351




----------



## Tez3

ballen0351 said:


>



I assume that's for my post, well it is what it is, many parents here don't consider self defence to be high on the list of things their children need to know and there's little to disprove them wrong. Very few people actually meet with violence in their lives so you can't blame them for thinking that way.


----------



## ballen0351

Tez3 said:


> I assume that's for my post, well it is what it is, many parents here don't consider self defence to be high on the list of things their children need to know and there's little to disprove them wrong. Very few people actually meet with violence in their lives so you can't blame them for thinking that way.


no it was for the OP not yours. I typed a long post but realized it would be seen as rude so I didnt post it.  I agree with your post


----------



## Tez3

No worries. 

many years ago I was a Cub leader and we were playing a game in the hall where I'd shout out something ie a colour, a fabric, a texture etc and the boys would run to touch it. It was back in the day where kids still wore leather shoes lol so I said 'touch leather' the boys all dived flat out to my feet and touched my boots, they were all lying there touching my feet when the District Commissioner walked in............................


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> For many such as Quakers this is a matter of faith and belief, pacifist to the core they will not fight. Many people do not believe in fighting and will stick to that position, that is their right and should no more be judged for that than you should for making your children fight.


Complicated topic.  One of my long time friends is a Quaker, and she's pretty darned fierce.  While she isn't a violent person, she is a strong advocate for her kids.  When her kids were school aged (they're all adults now), she was not at all conflict avoidant, and wouldn't hesitate to get involved.  I have no doubt she would readily confront a martial arts instructor whom she believed acted out of turn.

Quakers are also a good illustration of my tongue and cheek comment earlier.  She is a pacifist, but I've also seen her act in her own self defense.  While she would not engage in violence, self defense is not synonymous with violence.


----------



## Lameman

My style of fighting is so heavily focused on defending myself that I can't use it agressivly at all. You either attack me, or we just stand there. And I have been in many situations where fighting and self defence were not synonymous. When I was 4 I had to fight a 12 year old and his twin brother, and I deformed that poor guy. Didn't realize how badly I had hurt him until I ran into him eight years later and saw what I had made him live with. I made a vow with myself that day, to never do that again if I could help it. Smetimes, it is better to take a beating then to give one. Kinda off subject.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Why should they see the importance *to you* of activities? some activities have what appears to be no or little importance, daydreaming for example but are actually very important for a child's development.


Not sure what you mean.  I'm not saying that thinks like daydreaming aren't important for a child's development. A child doesn't have to see the importance of an activity.  That's my job as a parent to recognize the importance of an activity, which also includes recognizing when my child thinks something is important.   Some activities my child may think are important can actually be harmful.  So as the parent who has been on the planet for 40+ years vs the child who has been on the planet for less than 18 years. I have to use my experience with life to help guide the child in a non destructive manner.



Tez3 said:


> For many such as Quakers this is a matter of faith and belief, pacifist to the core they will not fight. Many people do not believe in fighting and will stick to that position, that is their right and should no more be judged for that than you should for making your children fight.


In my book choosing not to learn how to defend yourself because it's your religion is not the same as someone who chooses not to learn to defend themselves because they don't think it's important.  The entire basis of religion is to follow a set of rules and beliefs that have been determined by a higher being as to be important.  Those rules have nothing to do with self-defense, fighting, and protecting ones self because they are "Ultimate Rules without exceptions."  With stuff like that even the things the person thinks are important may not be done because the religion says so.  The people I was referring to aren't people who are bound by their religion.  The people I'm referring to are the everyday person who thinks that they don't need to learn how to protect themselves solely on the assumption that "They will never need it."   We are the only organism on the planet that think this way. I'm not sure why humans (I'm not talking about the Quakers) think this, when on a cellular our bodies are fighting and are in self-defense mode all the time.



Tez3 said:


> We come from very different societies, fighting for most parents here is something alien, something they have never needed to do and don't see the need for their children to do, like the gun and being armed issues it's something not considered here and in fact not in a lot of other places either. that's not sticking our heads in the sand by the way but a recognition that we live differently.


Even though we are from different societies I understand what you are saying and how peoples environments play a role in what they think as being important.

The best comparison that I can think of is the perception of the seat belt.  The majority of the people we know aren't going to be in a serious car accident. So just because people aren't likely to be in a serious car accident doesn't mean the seat belt less important or has no value.  People who don't wear seat belts are mainly the ones who don't think they will be in an accident or don't care if are.  Those who wear seat belts rather have one just in case that unlikely possibility  of an serious accident happens.  A person's driving skills may result in the person going through their entire life without ever having the need for the seat beat.  Then you have people like my friend who never used a seat belt until he had his accident where his body slammed into the steering wheel so hard that it bent the steering wheel.  Now he doesn't have that same perception about seat beats and he always uses a seat belt now.   This is how I self defense (which includes knowing how to fight).

Usually the things that rarely happen are the same things that are the most serious when it does happen, people are thankful those things that initially seem unimportant were done.  This also ties back into what you were saying about child development and the activities that they do. A smaller activity such as spending a few quality minutes with a child may have a much bigger impact and importance than what the parent may realize.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Lameman said:


> I made a vow with myself that day, to never do that again if I could help it. Smetimes, it is better to take a beating then to give one. Kinda off subject.


  I understand what you are saying, but keep in mind that the guy you injured was the one that took the beating.


----------



## lklawson

kempodisciple said:


> Some don't even put them in for discipline. Its an hour a day three days a week where they have a free babysitter. That's all they care about.


Free?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> People who don't wear seat belts are mainly the ones who don't think they will be in an accident or don't care if are.



Not wearing a seatbelt in Europe and the UK is illegal so people don't have the choice.

As a parent who has been on this planet for 60+ years I've learnt that children are a lot smarter than we ever give them credit for. Yes we protect them but we really need to listen to them as well.

I also know from experience that people when they need to can and will fight very successfully without having lessons. The old cliché about the size of the fight in the dog comes to mind here.



Lameman said:


> When I was 4 I had to fight a 12 year old and his twin brother, and I deformed that poor guy.



So, you were *4 years old* and you took on *two 12 year olds* and won, not only won but actually disabled one. And you really expect us to take that at face value?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

lklawson said:


> Free?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Meant free as in free of worry-they are with all the other kids. I used an incredibly wrong word to describe that...Never heard of a 'free' kids class


----------



## lklawson

kempodisciple said:


> Meant free as in free of worry-they are with all the other kids. I used an incredibly wrong word to describe that...Never heard of a 'free' kids class


I only mentioned it because I found it amusing.  

I've heard other instructors complain before that parents drop their kids off and expect them to babysit.  They then complain that if parents wanted that, the actual day-care is cheaper.

I also find this amusing.  If you're going to teach kids, you gotta accept the fact that there are going to be some parents who's only goal is to get the kids out of their hair for a while.  Suck it up or don't teach kids.

As far as I'm, personally, concerned, I don't really care.  I won't teach western martial arts to kids (bowie knife, etc.) but Judo, yeah.  If the parents want to get the kids out of their hair for a while, then fine, whatever.  But the parents have to understand that the kids will be performing their same activities as the rest and will have to abide by the same "rules" as everyone else, including dojo etiquette, uniforms, or whatever else.  When their kids are there, they're going to be doing martial arts, not paint-by-numbers or duck-duck-goose, regardless of what the parents true goals are.  <shrug>

That said, I always encourage parents to join *with* their kids or, at the very least, sit quietely and watch.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Not wearing a seatbelt in Europe and the UK is illegal so people don't have the choice.


  It's the same in the U.S.. Keep in mind that illegal means it's against the law. It doesn't mean people don't have a choice.  People choose to follow the law or choose not to follow the law. 



Tez3 said:


> As a parent who has been on this planet for 60+ years I've learnt that children are a lot smarter than we ever give them credit for. Yes we protect them but we really need to listen to them as well.


  I totally agree with that.and now that you've stated you have been on the planet for 60+ years I'll be listening to you much closely now as well. So feel free to let me know if you see me about to "step in a hole" or make a mistake.  lol.  I always try to avoid the same mistakes that people who are older than me have made.  It just doesn't make sense for me to "fall in that same hole" that they fell in.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> It's the same in the U.S.. Keep in mind that illegal means it's against the law. It doesn't mean people don't have a choice.  People choose to follow the law or choose not to follow the law.
> 
> I totally agree with that.and now that you've stated you have been on the planet for 60+ years I'll be listening to you much closely now as well. So feel free to let me know if you see me about to "step in a hole" or make a mistake.  lol.  I always try to avoid the same mistakes that people who are older than me have made.  It just doesn't make sense for me to "fall in that same hole" that they fell in.



People are mostly law abiding here because they see the point of the law. I think we see the police and the law in a slightly different way from what I've seen Americans doing.
I will freely admit I've had some of the best times of my life when I've made what some might consider mistakes lol. I would say go for it, sometimes mistakes aren't and sometimes playing safe is a mistake.


----------



## JowGaWolf

lklawson said:


> I also find this amusing. If you're going to teach kids, you gotta accept the fact that there are going to be some parents who's only goal is to get the kids out of their hair for a while. Suck it up or don't teach kids.


 Yep, it comes with the territory. People want more parental involvement, which is surprising because if I have the opportunity to have a positive effect on a young person's life then I'm going to take it.  I often joke with myself saying that if I don't want this kid to grow up and be the person that mugs me when I'm 80, then I better make sure he/she gets on the right path whenever I have the opportunity to do so.



lklawson said:


> When their kids are there, they're going to be doing martial arts, not paint-by-numbers or duck-duck-goose, regardless of what the parents true goals are


 Excellent.  So far every child that is in our school participates in the class with their parents.  Hopefully we can continue to grow that way.  I actually like it better than the separate youth classes.  It's one of the few times where the child can do "an adult activity" and be just like or better than the adults.  They get all happy when we ask them to show the adults how to do stuff.  I don't know how this would work with a large group, but so far with a small group it's great.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> People are mostly law abiding here because they see the point of the law. I think we see the police and the law in a slightly different way from what I've seen Americans doing.
> I will freely admit I've had some of the best times of my life when I've made what some might consider mistakes lol. I would say go for it, sometimes mistakes aren't and sometimes playing safe is a mistake.


  lol. I have one word for you. TRUMP.   We have lost our minds over here.  Unfortunately, Americans get stuck on themselves where they think their rights are bigger than the law.
For many years there has been an anti-government mindset growing here and many of the politicians from one party are the ones who kept "feeding that monster."  Now that the monster is bigger than the cage, those same politicians are trying to get it under control. So yes you are right, it just happens that the same guy who didn't see the value and importance of the seat belt is part of that political party.

Hopefully we can get our act together soon.


----------



## Tez3

Personally I don't like children and adults in the same class, I find it dangerous. The adults can't spar properly and we can't work on techniques to the same degree, there's many techniques we do that I wouldn't teach to children. We train robustly to the extent that children would be hurt if they were to do the same.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> lol. I have one word for you. TRUMP.   We have lost our minds over here.  Unfortunately, Americans get stuck on themselves where they think their rights are bigger than the law.
> For many years there has been an anti-government mindset growing here and many of the politicians from one party are the ones who kept "feeding that monster."  Now that the monster is bigger than the cage, those same politicians are trying to get it under control. So yes you are right, it just happens that the same guy who didn't see the value and importance of the seat belt is part of that political party.
> 
> Hopefully we can get our act together soon.



Without wandering too far into the politics that are verboten here, I will say there is a huge amount of concern here today, the media and social media are almost melting as Trump has just said he wouldn't rule out a nuclear attack on the UK. It is worrying all sides of the political divide here.


----------



## Lameman

Tez3, I could tell you even less believable stories if you would like. I don't really care if you believe them or not. I do hope that when you have to fight against the odds you remember your training and don't let them get into your head.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Without wandering too far into the politics that are verboten here, I will say there is a huge amount of concern here today, the media and social media are almost melting as Trump has just said he wouldn't rule out a nuclear attack on the UK. It is worrying all sides of the political divide here.


Trump is just a distraction. He can't get the off-whites. LOL


----------



## Tez3

Lameman said:


> Tez3, I could tell you even less believable stories if you would like. I don't really care if you believe them or not. I do hope that when you have to fight against the odds you remember your training and don't let them get into your head.



Why do you assume that you are the only one who has first hand knowledge of fighting? Perhaps you should acknowledge that you are not the only one on here who has had to fight and has done things you know nothing of.


----------



## Lameman

That is your assumption, not mine. But if you doubt significant odds can be overcome. Then that is good advice. If not, a good reminder. I assume nearly everyone here has experience fighting. I also assume that not everyone here, has had to fight against significant odds. If they are reading then the advice may serve them well.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Without wandering too far into the politics that are verboten here, I will say there is a huge amount of concern here today, the media and social media are almost melting as Trump has just said he wouldn't rule out a nuclear attack on the UK. It is worrying all sides of the political divide here.


ha ha ha. that's like a 4 year old child or puppy I turn my back for just a few hours and he's already into something else. (not that I would turn my back on a 4 year old for that long but you get the picture lol)


----------



## pgsmith

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha. that's like a 4 year old child or puppy I turn my back for just a few hours and he's already into something else. (not that I would turn my back on a 4 year old for that long but you get the picture lol)


  You'd better not. According to some here, they might seriously injure you.


----------



## ballen0351

Lameman said:


> Tez3, I could tell you even less believable stories if you would like. I don't really care if you believe them or not. I do hope that when you have to fight against the odds you remember your training and don't let them get into your head.


Tez isn't the only one that thinks your full of it


----------



## Lameman

To each his own. I don't need you to believe anything. There are many things in this world that defy belief, some require first hand witness. Since I can't give you that. Believe what you will.


----------



## jezr74

MichaelSourey said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would like some feedback about something that happened to my son.
> 
> I am new to the world of eastern martial arts and the deferential respect for authority that appears to be part of its culture.
> 
> About six months ago my 9 year old son joined a local martial arts group.  Until a recent event occurred, I was reasonably happy with how the instructor ran the classes, although I find the authoritarianism which seems to go with it a bit strange.  I say strange because this is not how my son would be taught at school or how he has been taught in any of the other out of school activities that he has and does pursue.
> 
> The circumstances of the event were as follows:
> I arrived at the class with my son.  As we walked in, I noticed that the instructor was lying on the floor at the front of the class with his feet resting on the crouched body of one of the children.  There were giggles and laughter from that child, the other children in the class and from the three or four other parents that were there.
> 
> The instructor then said to my son, "Oh, you're late, come here".  I don't think we were late because the class had not started.  He instructed my son to crouch down so that he could rest his head on my son's back.  Some of the children in the class are also my son's schoolmates.  This all happened so quickly that although I felt uncomfortable about it, I did not know how to react to it before I left.  I had to leave straight away to collect another of my children from my child minder.
> 
> Subsequently, on reflection, I felt very angry about what had happened.  This action had humiliated my son and myself.  My son has taken part in many out of school activities over the years and I have only once before had a problem, which was dealt with immediately and professionally by the activity leader concerned.  I am not a serial complainer.
> 
> My son was embarrassed by this event.  Neither of us wanted to attend the following weeks' lesson and chose not to go.  My son wishes to continue with this particular martial art and wishes to attend this particular class because a number of his friends go there.  There is no other provider of this particular martial art in our region.  Because this is what my son wants, I intend to take him back to this class.
> 
> I emailed the instructor two days ago to complain about what I feel is an important child safeguarding issue.  I have not had a reply.  I have a feeling I will not get a reply.
> 
> What I want to know is:
> Am I over-reacting?
> Am I being too proud?
> Is this sort of thing normal in martial arts classes?
> How would you feel if this was your child?
> 
> Can you give me some guidance?
> 
> Michael.



Just because other parents do nothing, it doesn't make it right. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. 

I personally don't like the idea of putting feet on a child to show dominance. (Reminds me of old Kung-fu movies)

But you will find it's fairly common practice in MA, I have noticed a difference in methodology and attitude with clubs where the instructors have child teaching qualifications, I definitely don't think all adults are up to the task of teaching kids.

I personally find that MA only teaches a small amount of discipline by example, IMO it's an environment and tool that can be used to allow the participant to become more disciplined. At a young age it's about getting them to commit to getting to class each week and not skipping or dropping out. As they develop it becomes much more.


----------



## ballen0351

Lameman said:


> To each his own. I don't need you to believe anything. There are many things in this world that defy belief, some require first hand witness. Since I can't give you that. Believe what you will.


Yes some things do happen yet defy belief and some things are just made up .  Your story is the latter


----------



## jezr74




----------



## elder999

jezr74 said:


>


Gymnastics...


----------



## jezr74

elder999 said:


> Gymnastics...



You would have to be correct, the upper body on gymnasts is phenomenal.


----------



## Lameman

I've never had muscles like that. I was usually the weak kid. In high school I couldn't even bench the bar. I'd lose arm wrestling contests to the girls. Not just the strong ones either. Course, if I could get it over my legs, I could get it off the ground.


----------



## Tames D

Lameman said:


> My style of fighting is so heavily focused on defending myself that I can't use it agressivly at all. You either attack me, or we just stand there. And I have been in many situations where fighting and self defence were not synonymous. When I was 4 I had to fight a 12 year old and his twin brother, and I deformed that poor guy. Didn't realize how badly I had hurt him until I ran into him eight years later and saw what I had made him live with. I made a vow with myself that day, to never do that again if I could help it. Smetimes, it is better to take a beating then to give one. Kinda off subject.


Chuck Norris built the house he was born in.


----------



## ballen0351

Tames D said:


> Chuck Norris built the house he was born in.


You win


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tames D said:


> Chuck Norris built the house he was born in.


When he joined the Army, he said, "Well Dad, you are the man of the family, now."


----------



## Dirty Dog

Chuck Norris once peed in the gas tank of a friends truck as a prank.

Today, that truck is known as Optimus Prime.


----------



## donald1

Im not sure I understand what your saying; are you saying the instructor demonstrated a technique on your son?

If thats the case thats just fine Instructors do that all the time. (Especially with tall people)

Though I do understand your concern and it is somewhat reasonable.


----------



## Ironbear24

Sounds like you are over reacting. The sifu was simply joking around with his students.


----------



## drop bear

donald1 said:


> Im not sure I understand what your saying; are you saying the instructor demonstrated a technique on your son?
> 
> If thats the case thats just fine Instructors do that all the time. (Especially with tall people)
> 
> Though I do understand your concern and it is somewhat reasonable.



Used the kid as a foot stool.


----------



## Tames D

drop bear said:


> Used the kid as a foot stool.


So, would the kid be considered an Ottoman?


----------



## Lameman

Wait, wasn't it a headrest?


----------



## drop bear

Lameman said:


> Wait, wasn't it a headrest?



I think it was a whole room full of child furniture.


Which is what you get for being late.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I think it was a whole room full of child furniture.
> 
> 
> Which is what you get for being late.


Not a standard Ikea offering, I think, though they are stackable.


----------



## Kenpoguy123

Tez3 said:


> What's that then?  bear in mind to us over here 'pants' are underwear.


It's where someone's trousers are pulled down


----------



## Buka

I actually know a four year old who smacked around a couple twelve year olds. His birthday was February 29th.


----------



## Tez3

Buka said:


> I actually know a four year old who smacked around a couple twelve year olds. His birthday was February 29th.



That's reasonable, a four year who has only been around fours years is not lol.


----------



## Lameman

I am glad that my childhood traumas, have provided so much ammusment.


----------



## Tez3

Lameman said:


> I am glad that my childhood traumas, have provided so much ammusment.



That's alright then. I'd always been led to believe that children in the US started school at 6, they were in kindergarten and prekindergarten until then, and that 12 year olds wouldn't be in the same school as 4 years olds, obviously not if 4 and 12 year olds go to the same school.


----------



## Buka

Lameman said:


> I am glad that my childhood traumas, have provided so much ammusment.



Please don't take offense, my friend, just some good natured ribbing. You kind of opened it up with the recount of you at four years old.

But, even that could have been worse. You could have grown up in Egypt.

Egyptian boy, 4, sentenced to life in jail for committing four murders

And, wow, did we derail this thread or what?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> That's alright then. I'd always been led to believe that children in the US started school at 6, they were in kindergarten and prekindergarten until then, and that 12 year olds wouldn't be in the same school as 4 years olds, obviously not if 4 and 12 year olds go to the same school.



He is legit. I have seen the vids.


----------



## Lameman

My parents were, kinda, neglectful. As a result I never had someone to tell me what I could or could not do. With the help of PBS, I taught myself to read, and by the time I hit kindegarten, I could do algebra and was reading, well, everything I could get my hands on. I went to K, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 9th, and then college. Thats 15 years. In between I studied what I wanted.


----------



## Tez3

Lameman said:


> My parents were, kinda, neglectful. As a result I never had someone to tell me what I could or could not do. With the help of PBS, I taught myself to read, and by the time I hit kindegarten, I could do algebra and was reading, well, everything I could get my hands on. I went to K, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 9th, and then college. Thats 15 years. In between I studied what I wanted.



Of course you did.


----------



## Tames D

You


Lameman said:


> My parents were, kinda, neglectful. As a result I never had someone to tell me what I could or could not do. With the help of PBS, I taught myself to read, and by the time I hit kindegarten, I could do algebra and was reading, well, everything I could get my hands on. I went to K, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 9th, and then college. Thats 15 years. In between I studied what I wanted.


 You were doing algebra before you entered kindergarten? Self taught?


----------



## Lameman

There was an adult learning program on PBS. It was my introduction to math. So, no, not self taught.


----------



## Tez3

Lameman said:


> There was a adult learning program on PBS. It was my introduction to math. So, no, not self taught.



So if you went to school at 4, you must have been in kindergarten from 2/3 and taught yourself to read and do algebra before that, impressive.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

I could have seen the 4 year old going crazy and attacking unwitting 12 year olds, so wasn't going to comment on that. Understanding PBS and learning algebra before kindergarten (when most people just finished learning to count)...


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> I could have seen the 4 year old going crazy and attacking unwitting 12 year olds, so wasn't going to comment on thatdeliberatelyanding PBS and learning algebra before kindergarten (when most people just finished learning to count)...



Four year olds are prone to tantrums, they are still toddlers so yeah they can 'attack' but they won't train themselves in martial arts, use trees as punching bags then deliberately provoke a fight with two 12 year olds, beating them, one so badly he's disabled.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> Four year olds are prone to tantrums, they are still toddlers so yeah they can 'attack' but they won't train themselves in martial arts, use trees as punching bags then deliberately provoke a fight with two 12 year olds, beating them, one so badly he's disabled.


I don't remember him saying anything about training or provoking the fight. In my mind, it was a 4 year old who was being teased, then flipped out and stabbed one of the 12 year olds with a knife. I haven't seen anything like that happen, either, but a friend of mine who works at a child psych private practice has told me similar stories so its not unbelievable to me.


----------



## Tames D

kempodisciple said:


> I don't remember him saying anything about training or provoking the fight. In my mind, it was a 4 year old who was being teased, then flipped out and stabbed one of the 12 year olds with a knife. I haven't seen anything like that happen, either, but a friend of mine who works at a child psych private practice has told me similar stories so its not unbelievable to me.


I agree. I don't think he provoked the fight with the two older kids. But it wasn't a knife, it was a gasoline powered chain saw.


----------



## Lameman

You aren't half wrong. It wasn't a knife, it was a wall, and a seesaw. And they cornered me and threw the 1st punch. And you keep saying disabled. No, not disabled, disfigured. When he went face first into the wall, he tore his face up. And I did hit a tree in the proccess of learning. But hitting the tree didn't make me strong or tough, and taught it me to fight smart. Not try to contest strength with a stronger opponant. but to flow with my opponant and use their energy against them. In the end it was probably more luck then anything.


----------



## Tames D

Lameman said:


> You aren't half wrong. It wasn't a knife, it was a wall, and a seesaw. And they cornered me and threw the 1st punch. And you keep saying disabled. No, not disabled, disfigured. When he went face first into the wall, he tore his face up. And I did hit a tree in the proccess of learning. But hitting the tree didn't make me strong or tough, and taught it me to fight smart. Not try to contest strength with a stronger opponant. but to flow with my opponant and use their energy against them. In the end it was probably more luck then anything.


So... where did the chain saw come into play?


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> I don't remember him saying anything about training or provoking the fight. In my mind, it was a 4 year old who was being teased, then flipped out and stabbed one of the 12 year olds with a knife. I haven't seen anything like that happen, either, but a friend of mine who works at a child psych private practice has told me similar stories so its not unbelievable to me.



It was on another thread, he described what he did. He didn't 'flip out' according to him, it was a planned attack after he'd trained himself.

_"The school's bullies were two brothers, and their three friends. They liked to wait between the gym and the school and steal the other kid's lunch money. Having nothing for them to steal, I used to make them fight me, when ever I cought them, so the victim could get away. Course, with the significant difference between us, I inevetable allways lost. When I got tired of losing I found a tree and determined to teach myself to fight. I spent a weekend getting my butt kicked by an oaktree and learned two exercises, which I practiced. Anyway, long story shorter, the next week at school they decided I had offended them and cornered me in the playground. I was back to a brick wall and one of them stepped forward and punched. Instictivly, I moved my hand in a counterclockwise roll under his punch and dodged left. I had his fist against my neck and my hand against his elbow. I stepped in twisted and applied pressure. Not wanting to hurt his arm he spun with me. Right into the brick wall. Since that didn't take the fight out of him, I grabbed him by the hair and put him face first into that same wall again. That put him down, and I turned my attention to the other one. He had been punching me, and now seeing that I couldn't beat him in a straight fight I ran. He chased, and I couldn't get away so I ran up the seesaw and jumped down on the other end. He cought the other end as it was going up. The whole playground cheered and I was promptly expelled."_


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Ok, now it is fully unbelievable. Thank you, I had not seen that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> It was on another thread, he described what he did. He didn't 'flip out' according to him, it was a planned attack after he'd trained himself.
> 
> _"The school's bullies were two brothers, and their three friends. They liked to wait between the gym and the school and steal the other kid's lunch money. Having nothing for them to steal, I used to make them fight me, when ever I cought them, so the victim could get away. Course, with the significant difference between us, I inevetable allways lost. When I got tired of losing I found a tree and determined to teach myself to fight. I spent a weekend getting my butt kicked by an oaktree and learned two exercises, which I practiced. Anyway, long story shorter, the next week at school they decided I had offended them and cornered me in the playground. I was back to a brick wall and one of them stepped forward and punched. Instictivly, I moved my hand in a counterclockwise roll under his punch and dodged left. I had his fist against my neck and my hand against his elbow. I stepped in twisted and applied pressure. Not wanting to hurt his arm he spun with me. Right into the brick wall. Since that didn't take the fight out of him, I grabbed him by the hair and put him face first into that same wall again. That put him down, and I turned my attention to the other one. He had been punching me, and now seeing that I couldn't beat him in a straight fight I ran. He chased, and I couldn't get away so I ran up the seesaw and jumped down on the other end. He cought the other end as it was going up. The whole playground cheered and I was promptly expelled."_


Interestingly, it's the sheer level of detail that is most unbelievable. Not only do our minds not store information that way, but the level of emotion in an event like that will block most details from active recall. The kind of elevated limbic response in the brain during those situations makes this sort of video-camera accuracy nearly impossible.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> He is legit. I have seen the vids.



Damn! How old is that kid?


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> Ok, now it is fully unbelievable. Thank you, I had not seen that.



While it seems way off topic I wanted it made clear to the OP, a father of a child who is learning martial arts, that we don't turn children into fighting machines who go 'beast mode' on other children. The wrestling match isn't 'beast mode' that's an unfortunate description for a young talented wrestler.
Parents do worry that their children may be encouraged or taught to use what they learn in a martial arts class outside in the playground and on siblings. As instructors though we do emphasis that there is a time and place for using what is learnt, there are considerations and consequences to using your skills and we make sure this is understood. We don't encourage violence, we teach people to defend themselves not to incite fights.
The subject of bullying is a large and worrying one, in the UK all the martial arts organisations have child protection policies in place, the instructors have to be vetted through a government scheme if they teach children and young people. The organisations also spend a lot of time on 'anti bullying' tactics and techniques.


----------



## Tames D

_*"The school's bullies were two brothers, and their three friends. They liked to wait between the gym and the school and steal the other kid's lunch money. Having nothing for them to steal, I used to make them fight me, when ever I cought them, so the victim could get away. Course, with the significant difference between us, I inevetable allways lost. When I got tired of losing I found a tree and determined to teach myself to fight. I spent a weekend getting my butt kicked by an oaktree and learned two exercises, which I practiced. Anyway, long story shorter, the next week at school they decided I had offended them and cornered me in the playground. I was back to a brick wall and one of them stepped forward and punched. Instictivly, I moved my hand in a counterclockwise roll under his punch and dodged left. I had his fist against my neck and my hand against his elbow. I stepped in twisted and applied pressure. Not wanting to hurt his arm he spun with me. Right into the brick wall. Since that didn't take the fight out of him, I grabbed him by the hair and put him face first into that same wall again. That put him down, and I turned my attention to the other one. He had been punching me, and now seeing that I couldn't beat him in a straight fight I ran. He chased, and I couldn't get away so I ran up the seesaw and jumped down on the other end. He cought the other end as it was going up. The whole playground cheered and I was promptly expelled."*_

LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL


----------



## mograph

gpseymour said:


> Interestingly, it's the sheer level of detail that is most unbelievable. Not only do our minds not store information that way, but the level of emotion in an event like that will block most details from active recall. The kind of elevated limbic response in the brain during those situations makes this sort of video-camera accuracy nearly impossible.


Not if you're Sherlock Holmes!


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Interestingly, it's the sheer level of detail that is most unbelievable. Not only do our minds not store information that way, but the level of emotion in an event like that will block most details from active recall. The kind of elevated limbic response in the brain during those situations makes this sort of video-camera accuracy nearly impossible.



Nope.  I recalled the story of my mate being stabbed pretty clearly when it happened.

The only fight i don't clearly remember is one where the other guy almost uppercutted me airborn.
The actual events make it unbelievable.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Nope.  I recalled the story of my mate being stabbed pretty clearly when it happened.
> .


were you 4?  Big difference between recalling events as an adult vs remembering things from when you were 4


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> were you 4?  Big difference between recalling events as an adult vs remembering things from when you were 4



Doesn't matter in this instance. Age was not raised as a factor.

If i was i would agreed with that part of it.


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## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Damn! How old is that kid?



No idea.  But there are a few of them out now. Kids just being awesome at everything.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Doesn't matter in this instance. Age was not raised as a factor.


Well I just raised it


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Doesn't matter in this instance. Age was not raised as a factor.
> 
> If i was i would agreed with that part of it.



Actually age was the point of the posts, he said he was four and that's why the discussion... because he was four.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Actually age was the point of the posts, he said he was four and that's why the discussion... because he was four.



Not the one i responded to. 

Age was not mentioned at all.


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## mograph

gpseymour said:


> Interestingly, it's the sheer level of detail that is most unbelievable. Not only do our minds not store information that way, but the level of emotion in an event like that will block most details from active recall. The kind of elevated limbic response in the brain during those situations makes this sort of video-camera accuracy nearly impossible.


Well, I'm not so sure now. Just did a bit of checking ...
Studies have suggested that under stress, negative events are encoded with more detail. Here's one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24055594
But that's just one study -- not definitive yet, I think.
The role of emotion in memory | About memory

Anyway, I'm not sure that the event is depicted as a stressful event, anyway. It sounds as if the fighter (at age 4) acted in a cold and calculating manner, not unlike Sherlock Holmes as played by Downey, so stress might not have played a part in his responses to the event.

The story suggests that the fighter can recall his techniques in detail. But if, at age 4, he were as responsive and skilled as he suggests, his responses may have derived from implicit (procedural) memory: it's likely that he would have just _reacted_, and in his story, he wrote that he reacted "instinctively," no doubt due to his extensive training at the oak tree. Under such conditions, I'm not sure that someone could encode his responses to the opponent into memory in such detail, and recall those details as episodic (explicit) memories at age 4, 8, or today. 

(Skills are first encoded in explicit memory in the learning phase, but then are transferred to implicit memory through practice.) Declarative Memory (Explicit Memory) and Procedural Memory (Implicit Memory) - Types of Memory - The Human Memory


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## Tez3

mograph said:


> Well, I'm not so sure now. Just did a bit of checking ...
> Studies have suggested that under stress, negative events are encoded with more detail. Here's one:
> Encoding negative events under stress: high subjective arousal is related to accurate emotional memory despite misinformation exposure.  - PubMed - NCBI
> But that's just one study -- not definitive yet, I think.
> The role of emotion in memory | About memory
> 
> Anyway, I'm not sure that the event is depicted as a stressful event, anyway. It sounds as if the fighter (at age 4) acted in a cold and calculating manner, not unlike Sherlock Holmes as played by Downey, so stress might not have played a part in his responses to the event.
> 
> The story suggests that the fighter can recall his techniques in detail. But if, at age 4, he were as responsive and skilled as he suggests, his responses may have derived from implicit (procedural) memory: it's likely that he would have just _reacted_, and in his story, he wrote that he reacted "instinctively," no doubt due to his extensive training at the oak tree. Under such conditions, I'm not sure that someone could encode his responses to the opponent into memory in such detail, and recall those details as episodic (explicit) memories at age 4, 8, or today.
> 
> (Skills are first encoded in explicit memory in the learning phase, but then are transferred to implicit memory through practice.) Declarative Memory (Explicit Memory) and Procedural Memory (Implicit Memory) - Types of Memory - The Human Memory




or it could just be BS.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Since this thread is really off topic anyway, might as well go into the memory. It is likely a flashbulb memory. Those are incredibly realistic/vivid, and almost never fully (or at all) accurate. Most studies on it were done after 9/11, if you have any interest in finding more about it, since I'm not an expert on the subject


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## Tez3

Well, we have more than just a memory thing don't we? We have to work out the likelihood of a four year old child taking on two twelve year olds and beating them. Based on my considerable knowledge of four year AND twelve year olds the likelihood is extremely small to nil. Now, a gang of four year olds could do it if they worked it out or were told how to but the chances of a single, a smallish ( writer's own description) defeating two almost teenagers who as twins are co-ordinated to work together and have a long history of bullying would be very small.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

You're underestimating how off falshbulb memories can be. It's not something were the memory is slightly off, you could imagine a scenario that never happened, and be 100% convinced that it did. So yes, it is just a memory thing


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## drop bear

kempodisciple said:


> Since this thread is really off topic anyway, might as well go into the memory. It is likely a flashbulb memory. Those are incredibly realistic/vivid, and almost never fully (or at all) accurate. Most studies on it were done after 9/11, if you have any interest in finding more about it, since I'm not an expert on the subject



You realise that would basically throw any witness testimony out the window.


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## mograph

drop bear said:


> You realise that would basically throw any witness testimony out the window.


Eyewitness testimony is rather unreliable.

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts


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## mograph

kempodisciple said:


> You're underestimating how off falshbulb memories can be. It's not something were the memory is slightly off, you could imagine a scenario that never happened, and be 100% convinced that it did. So yes, it is just a memory thing


Yep. They're vivid, we're confident about them, but are they accurate? Not so much.

Flashbulb memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Tez3

mograph said:


> Eyewitness testimony is rather unreliable.
> 
> Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts




Any police officer will tell you about interviewing eye witnesses to an incident and getting very differing accounts. It's actually very frustrating when eye witnesses contradict each other.


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## Ironbear24

I like bears.


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## mograph

Bears are good.


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## ballen0351

Tez3 said:


> Any police officer will tell you about interviewing eye witnesses to an incident and getting very differing accounts. It's actually very frustrating when eye witnesses contradict each other.


Yep we had a Gas station robbery the other night.  Cashier employee said Black Male tall skinny black coat blue jeans huge black semi auto handgun, 1 customer said Black man or could have been a tall woman blue coat blue pants small revolver wood grips , a 2nd Customer said Hispanic male all black clothing 5'9 ish 200 pounds, big gun, and a 3rd customer said Middle Eastern of White with Olive skin over 6ft heavy set with Black Sweat pants, 
Well thankfully they had cameras.  The cashier was the closest to the description.  But he was also alot more relaxed since hes been robbed 4 times now.


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## Grenadier

*Admin's note:*

Thread closed.


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