# Which Of the 1st generation seniors do you think is the best mover



## Atlanta-Kenpo (Dec 5, 2004)

Of All the 1st generation seniors (Wedlake, Planas, Tatum, Doc ect) who do you think moves the best???


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 6, 2004)

I haven't met all of the first generation students.  Given my limited set of choices I would choose Mr. Wedlake.  He's fluid, relaxed and never looks like he's working hard.  Trying to follow Mr. Wedlake doing a form is an interesting exercise. He never looks like he's rushing or working hard and I still have difficulty keeping up.  It's a humbling experience.  

Jeff


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Dec 6, 2004)

I would agree with you as well.  But then I am under Mr Wedlake so I may be a bit bias.  I would say that Tatum is extremely fast + explosive.


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 6, 2004)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I would agree with you as well.  But then I am under Mr Wedlake so I may be a bit bias.  I would say that Tatum is extremely fast + explosive.


I've never met Mr. Tatum so I can't directly comment on that but he moves well in the video's I've seen.  Mr. Planas moves in a very efficient and economical manner with power that is never obvious till he hits you.  Mr. Trejo also moves very well.  They all move better than me. 

Jeff


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## Michael Billings (Dec 6, 2004)

Just in my experience, Tom Kelly, Sr.

 -Michael


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## OC Kid (Dec 6, 2004)

ive only trained with Mr. White so I have to say him.


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## Rick Wade (Dec 6, 2004)

My personal Vote goes to Mr. Pick.

Wow Wow
 :bow: 
I'm not worthy I'm not worthy


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## MisterMike (Dec 6, 2004)

I'd have to say Elvis. Good hip movement and timing and the deepest horse stance I've seen.

*chuckles*


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## TChase (Dec 6, 2004)

I have seen many of the 1st generation seniors in action and in my opinion Mr. Pick is without question the most effective Kenpoist there is.  This past weekend was a good reminder of that.


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 6, 2004)

I have only been in a class situation with Mr. Conatser, Wedlake, & Planas. Each in their own right have many attributes that I like. As for who moves the best  :idunno:  I can tell you that Mr. Conatser hits the hardest while Mr. Wedlake and Mr. Planas are so very closely equal it's hard to say. Mr. Wedlake is more personable so where does this leave me  :idunno: . No real particular answer.  :asian: We can't compare everybody when everyone on the board has not worked with "every" 1st generation student. 

We might as well revive the who would you like to train with threads again. :asian:


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## Big Pat (Dec 6, 2004)

The IKCA guys move very well. Mr. Sullivan even at his age still has ASP. Mr. LeRoux moves exceptionally well. In many ways he reminds me of Mr. Tatum. My first instructor Mr. Jeff English was very fast, he never even let me get close to hitting him. 

EKP RIP

Big Pat
 :asian:


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (Dec 6, 2004)

From all those I've seen move, Mr. Paul Mills.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Dec 6, 2004)

XtremeJ_AKKI said:
			
		

> From all those I've seen move, Mr. Paul Mills.


Paul Mills is not a first generation.    

DarK LorD


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (Dec 6, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Paul Mills is not a first generation.
> 
> DarK LorD



Trained directly under Mr. Parker. 

Don't start. There's no need for this thread to turn into a mess simply to satisfy your need to be right.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 7, 2004)

Having worked out with most of them..... they all are talented.  As far as rough and tough go ......... I don't like being in the receiving end of ...Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Bob Liles, Bob White, Mike Pick, Dave Hebler,Frank Trejo, Al Tracy, Chuck Sullivan or Ron Chapel. This is not to say that others don't hit hard either Paul Mills & Bryan Hawkins sure does pack a wallop also!  As far as "Kenpo movement" goes Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo, Lee Wedlake, Skip Hancock, and a host of others move incredibally well!

 Very hard question......... lots of talent here in many areas.

 :asian:


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## parkerkarate (Dec 7, 2004)

I totally agree with Mr. Conaster, there just is not one black belt that moves the best, there are many.

I have not seen Mr. Kelly do anything as of late, but in his prime he was excellent. Even though Mr. Palanzo has had his hip replaced he still moves very well.


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## Simon Curran (Dec 7, 2004)

In my very humble opinion, having only had the honour of working out with two first generation students,

Mr Tatum moves very fast and stylistically beautiful
Mr Planas hits deceptively hard for a guy of his stature
(I have served as a dummy for both of them in seminars, and all I can say is ouch!)
(Then again I think everybody likes to pick on the big guy at a seminar...)
However, being as the organisation I train under is Parker/Planas lineage I would have to Mr Planas of course...
By the way, altough he may not be strictly first gen, I recently had the pleasure of attending a seminar given by Mr Eddy Downey from Ireland who did train personally with the late great Mr Parker Sr and I can say with the conviction of one who has been on the recieving end, that he is definately no slouch...


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## Brian Jones (Dec 7, 2004)

I have been in many seminars with the Kenpo seniors, or viewed them via tape and DVD.  Its hard any time you use a qualifier like "best" becuase best could mean so many things. It could mean beautiful movement, or the fastest, hardest hitting, or just better than you.
  While any of the seniors I have seen could fit in this category, with little arguemnt, I have to put Paul Mills at the top.  Not just becuase of his speed and power, for which he gets much credit.  But the way he moves his forms is also very impressive.

Brian Jones


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 7, 2004)

Mr. Conaster is right.  All of the first generation BB's who have ascended to 7th or higher move well.  If they didn't, they wouldn't have gotten promoted and they wouldn't still be active--or you wouldn't be discussing them.

This thread is as pointless as a Bruce Lee vs. Rickson Gracie thread.


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 7, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Mr. Conaster is right.  All of the first generation BB's who have ascended to 7th or higher move well.  If they didn't, they wouldn't have gotten promoted and they wouldn't still be active--or you wouldn't be discussing them.
> 
> This thread is as pointless as a Bruce Lee vs. Rickson Gracie thread.


They all move well and for the reason you make I almost didn't answer this thread.  However the question was very specific "who moves best?" I have felt very fortunate to meet the seniors with whom I've been able to take a seminar. They all move well and everyone has had something to offer.  None that I have met have any reason to be anything but proud of their Kenpo.  they all move differently from each other (a strength of Kenpo) and those differences have been quite enlightening for me.  I have heard it said that "nobody moves like the Old Man."  

This thread could easily have become a shouting match but fortunately has just been a forum for people to express their opinion.   So the question remains OFK of the seniors you've met, who would you most like to move like.

Respectfully,

Jeff

As to Rickson and Bruce, Rickson would have whupped Bruce but I would have liked the opportunity to have trained with either.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 7, 2004)

I don't aspire to move like any of the Kenpo Seniors as my recent training has taken me in an entirely different direction.  

I would like to be able to grow a mullet like Larry Tatum though.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 7, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I don't aspire to move like any of the Kenpo Seniors as my recent training has taken me in an entirely different direction.
> 
> I would like to be able to grow a mullet like Larry Tatum though.


:roflmao:


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## TChase (Dec 7, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Having worked out with most of them..... they all are talented. As far as rough and tough go ......... I don't like being in the receiving end of ...Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Bob Liles, Bob White, Mike Pick, Dave Hebler,Frank Trejo, Al Tracy, Chuck Sullivan or Ron Chapel. This is not to say that others don't hit hard either Paul Mills & Bryan Hawkins sure does pack a wallop also! As far as "Kenpo movement" goes Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo, Lee Wedlake, Skip Hancock, and a host of others move incredibally well!
> 
> Very hard question......... lots of talent here in many areas.
> 
> :asian:


I actually like being a target for Mr. Pick.  Not that it feels very good but I sure do learn a lot.  They say growth hurts!:uhyeah:


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 7, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> I actually like being a target for Mr. Pick. Not that it feels very good but I sure do learn a lot. They say growth hurts!:uhyeah:


Or it will STUNT Your growth!!!!!!!!!
:uhyeah:


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## kenpo3631 (Dec 7, 2004)

I have been on the recieving end of many 1st Generation BLack Belts. I must say they all have their own attributes making them unique. This is a very hard question to answer, most answers will be opinion from personal experience....


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 8, 2004)

"Can't you just let a bad thread die?"

I recieved this as a bad ding on reputation.  I actually don't believe this is a bad thread.  Perhaps politically incorrect but not bad.  This is the perfect opportunity to discuss movement in Kenpo.  All of the seniors that I've had the honor to witness move well. there is a certain similarity between them which I choose to see as the center.  There are differences however, perhaps an honest discussion of these differences would help others know who they might want to travel and see.  When I started my instructor mentioned many sources in Kenpo.  The names he mentioned most frequently were Mr. Wedlake, Mr. Planas, Mr. Trejo and Mr. Dye.  No disrespect to others, in fact he always made it clear that Kenpo had many other fine instructors to see and learn from.  I therefore made it my business to meet the instructors who had most inspired my instructor. I responded to the question and tried to give reasons for my opinion.  It is the reasons for the answer which give this thread its potential.

One of the benefits of going to a seminar is seeing other people move.  You are fooling yourself if you think that the brief technique taught will make you a better martial artist.  Sometimes it's just a new way of looking at all of your techniques and sometimes its just a new way to visualize movement.  Several years ago my then 13 year old son and I had the good fortune to take a mini seminar with Mr. Trejo at Mike Cappi's Fall Fling.  It changed the way my son moved.  I think he began to visualize movement differently.  

It is too bad that people are afraid to discuss movement for fear of hurting feelings.  Who would beat who in a fight would be a dumb thread.  Who moves well and what do they do to make you believe they move well is potentially enlightening.

respectfully submitted,

Jeff


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Dec 8, 2004)

When I started this thread I was unsure of how it would go.  My intention was to see what everyone thought about movement/motion as it pertains to their lineage.  I have not seen all the seniors move and I wish that was not the case.  It would be great if we had all of them on video so that everyone could see just how different kenpo can look by different people performing it correctly.

I think that they all have there stregnths

tatum + mills = speed/power
wedlake = fluid, balenced and deceptively powerful
planas= incredible timing + accuracy
steve white = fast + fluid

I have not seen anyone else besides the above mentioned %-}


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## onyx192 (Dec 8, 2004)

So far from what i've seen, I'd have to say Larry Tatums is probably the fastest as far as handspeed. You guys ever see his TOW's on his website.. He beats the crap outta his students.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 8, 2004)

Yep, they stand there and he beats em.  Woo.


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 9, 2004)

I'll try a longer list and include some next generation guys.

Wedlake:  Fluid, balanced and deceptively powerful
Planas:  Incredible timing and accuracy, Mr. Planas never looks like he's hurrying and yet he's always moving faster than his opponent.  On the recieving end my body feels disoriented and once he engages me he is in controll.  Oddly it feels like central nervous system disorientation but is not pain mediated. 
Trejo:  Fluid and powerful, playful with a sense of humor.   He's a big man who moves like a much smaller person.
LaBounty: Quick, powerful and intense. 
Speakman: Big, powerful, cocky with flash.
Dye: Powerful, accurate like a brick with arms.
S. Kelley: Agile and fluid demonstrates how to use short stature to his advantage.
Chavis: Fast and accurate.
Schulte: Quick and intense with power and humor.
Whitson: Accurate with power.
Wheeler: (Now does systema) Maniacal intensity, addicting teacher.
White: Serious with a smile, explosive movement.
Tanaka: Fluid, Graceful
McVicar: Small with a quick accurate and remarkably powerful delivery.  Size matters but she definately demonstrates how Kenpo can be used by a small person.
Liles: Power
Urquidez: Energetic infectious enthusiasm, remarkably fast with accuracy and power. My two boys found him mesmerizing and still speak 3  years later with pleasure about that seminar.
Cogliandro: Fluid Power
McLuckie: Not a kenpo man but extensive experiense in the Kenpo community.  Fluid wave like power. Like a quick aggressive Granite boulder.
Hatfield: My instructor, Fluid and balanced like a mixture of Mr. Wedlake and Mr. Planas, 7 years of instruction and every lesson remains enlightening.

This is only a small list of available instructors and no disrespect to the others meant, I just have not met them.  The advantage of meeting these people is that you can find ways to do Kenpo which fit your own body, ability and inclination.  I'd love to move like Wedlake, Chavis or Trejo, their movement is poetry.  It's just not likely to happen.  Mr. Planas has been fabulous at demonstrating to me how I can move as best I can with my own limited abilities and aging body. 

I never met Mr. Parker but I remain impressed the the sheer number of excellent instructiors he inspired and provided for us.

Jeff


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## Michael Billings (Dec 9, 2004)

OK but how many of these are:

 1) First Generation
 2) Kenpo Senior (a 7th at the time of Mr. Parker's death)

 I think that was the original topic, and we expanded the definition of "Senior" or I would have added a list like above.

 -Michael


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 9, 2004)

You're right I expanded the question .

Jeff :ultracool


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## Brian Jones (Dec 9, 2004)

Now it looks like this  thread is headed in the rigth direction, or at least where I think the original poster was headed. Not so much who moves the best, but what impresses you about how they move.

Brian Jones


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## Doc (Dec 12, 2004)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Of All the 1st generation seniors (Wedlake, Planas, Tatum, Doc ect) who do you think moves the best???


I still stumble around pretty good for an old fat man, so screw it. I vote for me. Sorry no one ever sees me.


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 12, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> ... Sorry no one ever sees me.


Work on Mr. King gettin' you back into Columbus.   :asian:


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 12, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> I still stumble around pretty good for an old fat man, so screw it. I vote for me. Sorry no one ever sees me.


Personally I like self confidence.  We need to get you out here.

Jeff :ultracool


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2004)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Personally I like self confidence.  We need to get you out here.
> 
> Jeff :ultracool


I gotta git out ta OhiO.


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## Brian Jones (Dec 14, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Work on Mr. King gettin' you back into Columbus.   :asian:



Would that be AJ King By any chance?


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 14, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> I gotta git out ta OhiO.



I agree!  :uhyeah:


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 14, 2004)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> Would that be AJ King By any chance?



 :idunno:  I don't know his initials.


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> :idunno:  I don't know his initials.


Andrew King


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