# Full contact karate organizations and the future of karate competitions



## chrissyp (Nov 23, 2018)

So with shows like karate combat, and karate pro fight, do you think we'll see an increase in both traditional karate/martial arts practitioners , and traditional schools make more of an emphasis on this style of ccompetition, or do you think its too niche still?

And would you like to see more shows like karate combat karate  profight? I personally do , but id like to see something less limited, but also not so unlimited that it becomes muay thai/ mma just named karate.

My next question, what would you like to see in a full contact karate show? I had an idea for a show like karate combat for years, and if funds will allow it I might just try to make it happen in late 2019 in the Cincinnati area or Indianapolis , depending if my partner goes through with it. The best way i could describe my idea, is it would look closer to orginal full contact karate in the 70s before it envovled into American kickboxing, back when you could still sweep and throw. All those techniques would be allowed, but id also have fighters wearing a gi for said throws , and for the use of the gi to grab to strike with knees and elbows,  but no thai plum/clinch.  Id still have to figure out the rules for the ground.


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## CB Jones (Nov 23, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> And would you like to see more shows like karate combat karate profight?



Yes!!!!!

I might be a little biased about Karate Combat (Full disclosure: We have a few friends involved in it.) but really like that concept.  Hoping it can grow larger....actually I like it better than MMA (don't care anything about watching grappling and clinches against cage).

Instead of trying to create a new league why not just try to partner with Karate Combat and help it expand?


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## chrissyp (Nov 23, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Yes!!!!!
> 
> I might be a little biased about Karate Combat (Full disclosure: We have a few friends involved in it.) but really like that concept.  Hoping it can grow larger....actually I like it better than MMA (don't care anything about watching grappling and clinches against cage).
> 
> Instead of trying to create a new league why not just try to partner with Karate Combat and help it expand?


Never thought of that. Not a bad idea , but i doubt id have the funds or ability to do that though. My ides isnt to compete with them , i just have a different vision of what id like to see for full contact karate. And yes! I love karate combat!! I would love to fight in it or something similar


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## Headhunter (Nov 23, 2018)

Full contact karate is kickboxing but with a different name. Kickboxing was started by karate guys wanting to fight full contact. The pioneer was Joe Lewis who's a karate guy. You watch a full contact karate match and a kickboxing match and they're exactly the same pretty much


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## chrissyp (Nov 23, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Full contact karate is kickboxing but with a different name. Kickboxing was started by karate guys wanting to fight full contact. The pioneer was Joe Lewis who's a karate guy. You watch a full contact karate match and a kickboxing match and they're exactly the same pretty much


 From my understanding the rules werent always the same . I know i seen some american kickboxing matches were you could throw and sweep. This was in the very early days


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## chrissyp (Nov 23, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Full contact karate is kickboxing but with a different name. Kickboxing was started by karate guys wanting to fight full contact. The pioneer was Joe Lewis who's a karate guy. You watch a full contact karate match and a kickboxing match and they're exactly the same pretty much


And by full contact,  i also mean id like to do something like the 1970s bareknuckle point karate when they were ko'ing each other, but continuous, with.mma gloves and a gi. Like in this


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## JR 137 (Nov 24, 2018)

I really like the Sabaki Challenge ruleset. Continuous knockdown like Kyokushin, only adding throws. Competitors have 5 seconds to grab and initiate the throw. Throws have to be followed up with a (assuming) non-contact strike, like how Kyokushin throws the punch that doesn’t land when they sweep.

I say I’d like head punching, but I think it would probably ruin it by ending the fight too quickly (bare knuckle) and people would be head hunting, changing the whole dynamics and strategy of it. Maybe not though.


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## chrissyp (Nov 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I really like the Sabaki Challenge ruleset. Continuous knockdown like Kyokushin, only adding throws. Competitors have 5 seconds to grab and initiate the throw. Throws have to be followed up with a (assuming) non-contact strike, like how Kyokushin throws the punch that doesn’t land when they sweep.
> 
> I say I’d like head punching, but I think it would probably ruin it by ending the fight too quickly (bare knuckle) and people would be head hunting, changing the whole dynamics and strategy of it. Maybe not though.


I love sabaki too , which is one point why if i do make this happen they will wear a gi. One problem i might have is fighters grabbing the gi and holding whilst punching the head  which i would want to limit


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## JR 137 (Nov 24, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> I love sabaki too , which is one point why if i do make this happen they will wear a gi. One problem i might have is fighters grabbing the gi and holding whilst punching the head  which i would want to limit


I didn’t think of the grabbing and punching the head thing. That would make it much worse for the competitors and the spectators IMO.


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## chrissyp (Nov 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I didn’t think of the grabbing and punching the head thing. That would make it much worse for the competitors and the spectators IMO.


Agreed. So that should be a no go


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## Mitlov (Dec 1, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> So with shows like karate combat, and karate pro fight, do you think we'll see an increase in both traditional karate/martial arts practitioners , and traditional schools make more of an emphasis on this style of ccompetition, or do you think its too niche still?
> 
> And would you like to see more shows like karate combat karate  profight? I personally do , but id like to see something less limited, but also not so unlimited that it becomes muay thai/ mma just named karate.
> 
> My next question, what would you like to see in a full contact karate show? I had an idea for a show like karate combat for years, and if funds will allow it I might just try to make it happen in late 2019 in the Cincinnati area or Indianapolis , depending if my partner goes through with it. The best way i could describe my idea, is it would look closer to orginal full contact karate in the 70s before it envovled into American kickboxing, back when you could still sweep and throw. All those techniques would be allowed, but id also have fighters wearing a gi for said throws , and for the use of the gi to grab to strike with knees and elbows,  but no thai plum/clinch.  Id still have to figure out the rules for the ground.



I think it's still a niche.  Full-contact competition appeals to a very specific demographic.  My karate school has seven-year-old kids, retirees who like the exercise, etc.  A lot of these people can benefit from karate training in their day-to-day life, but I'd guess maybe 5%-10% of the students at the school would have interest in training for Karate Combat-style full-contact competition.

I would like it if there was optional training for this...but the minute that a school says "if you train in karate, you're going to be training for full-contact sparring," it's going to really limit the demographics that the school appeals to.  And even if a sixty-year-old doing kata and point-stop light-contact sparring is never going to be able to stand toe-to-toe with a twenty-something who focuses his training on full-contact sparring, I don't think karate as a whole should close itself off to the former by making full-contact sparring a mandatory part of the curriculum.

In short: I'd like to see us make it available, but keep it optional.


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## Mitlov (Dec 1, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Yes!!!!!
> 
> I might be a little biased about Karate Combat (Full disclosure: We have a few friends involved in it.) but really like that concept.  Hoping it can grow larger....actually I like it better than MMA (don't care anything about watching grappling and clinches against cage).
> 
> Instead of trying to create a new league why not just try to partner with Karate Combat and help it expand?



I agree.  Karate doesn't need a dozen small full-contact competitions.  It needs one or two that actually have a critical mass of participation to gain momentum.  Karate Combat has the potential to do so right now in the USA, with the backing of both Bas Rutten and UFC.tv .  Kyokushin obviously as well.  I'd encourage what CB Jones says, for other people who like full-contact karate to buy into Karate Combat instead of creating a separate, even smaller, league.  In practical terms, it likely wouldn't survive two years.


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## chrissyp (Dec 1, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> I agree.  Karate doesn't need a dozen small full-contact competitions.  It needs one or two that actually have a critical mass of participation to gain momentum.  Karate Combat has the potential to do so right now in the USA, with the backing of both Bas Rutten and UFC.tv .  Kyokushin obviously as well.  I'd encourage what CB Jones says, for other people who like full-contact karate to buy into Karate Combat instead of creating a separate, even smaller, league.  In practical terms, it likely wouldn't survive two years.


something  like more karate combat shows would be great , but the chances of that happening are known. The idea behind the smaller show is there fighters like me who would love to fight on something like karate combat, but the options don't exist for most fighters. This smaller show would give Fighters the chance to actually compete in a full-contact competition like that which is the main point of the organization with the hope that it'll grow. Ultimately if successful , could eventually become a feeder league for the bigger shows. I also have several gyms and fighters locally interested subli the market does exist here and I'm willing to take that chance because I think I have something that will appeal if the least locally


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## dvcochran (Dec 1, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Yes!!!!!
> 
> I might be a little biased about Karate Combat (Full disclosure: We have a few friends involved in it.) but really like that concept.  Hoping it can grow larger....actually I like it better than MMA (don't care anything about watching grappling and clinches against cage).
> 
> Instead of trying to create a new league why not just try to partner with Karate Combat and help it expand?


I looks very legit. Reminds me of the original PKA back in the '80's.


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## chrissyp (Dec 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I looks very legit. Reminds me of the original PKA back in the '80's.


That's what im hoping to accomplish


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## Never_A_Reflection (Dec 4, 2018)

Personally, I don't much care for Karate Combat, but I'm also looking at things from a particular point of view, which I can admit is somewhat limiting. All of the competition circuits for karate are based on the approach to karate that was developed by Funakoshi Gigo and his ilk in the mid 20th Century, and is a very poor representation of the types of fighting methods that are actually part of karate. You can add contact, and that makes it a better representation of fighting, but it doesn't make it a better representation of old-style karate. Unfortunately, sparring methods that are more representative of those methods aren't very good spectator sports, at least for the wider audience with an attraction toward karate.


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## CB Jones (Dec 5, 2018)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Personally, I don't much care for Karate Combat, but I'm also looking at things from a particular point of view, which I can admit is somewhat limiting. All of the competition circuits for karate are based on the approach to karate that was developed by Funakoshi Gigo and his ilk in the mid 20th Century, and is a very poor representation of the types of fighting methods that are actually part of karate. You can add contact, and that makes it a better representation of fighting, but it doesn't make it a better representation of old-style karate. Unfortunately, sparring methods that are more representative of those methods aren't very good spectator sports, at least for the wider audience with an attraction toward karate.



What would be a better representation of karate fighting methods then?


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## dvcochran (Dec 5, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> What would be a better representation of karate fighting methods then?


It doesn't matter what color you paint this horse, it is now in the Martial sport category. This has historically led to differences between traditional teaching and what is done in the ring. One of the important things to me is that most of the application is there if taught correctly but the method may change. Adaptation is not a bad thing.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Dec 5, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> What would be a better representation of karate fighting methods then?



Going back to the way karate used to be pressure tested--effectively hard sparring with joint locks, chokes, and takedowns, but done from a "sticky hands" type of context, where contact must be maintained with the opponent at all times so that you are forced to use close range techniques. It's ugly, and messy, and hard to see what's going on, so it makes for a terrible spectator sport, but it's great fun and good training. The vast majority of karateka don't do it, anymore, though. The Kendo-inspired long range, striking-only sparring the Japanese came up with became the popular sparring method, so everyone decided to do that, instead.


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## CB Jones (Dec 5, 2018)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Going back to the way karate used to be pressure tested--effectively hard sparring with joint locks, chokes, and takedowns, but done from a "sticky hands" type of context, where contact must be maintained with the opponent at all times so that you are forced to use close range techniques. It's ugly, and messy, and hard to see what's going on, so it makes for a terrible spectator sport, but it's great fun and good training. The vast majority of karateka don't do it, anymore, though. The Kendo-inspired long range, striking-only sparring the Japanese came up with became the popular sparring method, so everyone decided to do that, instead.



Interesting.

I prefer the japanese style so I like it but see where you are coming from.


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## Mitlov (Dec 5, 2018)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Personally, I don't much care for Karate Combat, but I'm also looking at things from a particular point of view, which I can admit is somewhat limiting. *All of the competition circuits for karate are based on the approach to karate that was developed by Funakoshi Gigo and his ilk in the mid 20th Century,* and is a very poor representation of the types of fighting methods that are actually part of karate. You can add contact, and that makes it a better representation of fighting, but it doesn't make it a better representation of old-style karate. Unfortunately, sparring methods that are more representative of those methods aren't very good spectator sports, at least for the wider audience with an attraction toward karate.



Disagree.  Gigo Funakoshi might be responsible for WKF-style competitions, and Karate Combat (since it's taking practitioners who historically have trained for WKF competition) is still going to have a WKF flavor despite being full-contact.  But Kyokushin and Enshin competitions (and all the other knockdown karate competitions) have a very un-Shotokan approach.  And then there's the whole kickboxing scene that grew out of the Professional Karate Association in the 1970s with Bill Superfoot Wallace and those folks...


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## Never_A_Reflection (Dec 6, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Disagree.  Gigo Funakoshi might be responsible for WKF-style competitions, and Karate Combat (since it's taking practitioners who historically have trained for WKF competition) is still going to have a WKF flavor despite being full-contact.  But Kyokushin and Enshin competitions (and all the other knockdown karate competitions) have a very un-Shotokan approach.  And then there's the whole kickboxing scene that grew out of the Professional Karate Association in the 1970s with Bill Superfoot Wallace and those folks...



Kyokushin/Enshin/Seido/etc. is a bit of a different beast, yes, because Oyama integrated the irikumi-go method of sparring from Goju-Ryu, which brought the range a bit closer and, of course, included hard contact. It still doesn't represent the older methods of karate, though, and was still influenced by the Budo-fication of karate going on at that time. As for the PKA and American kickboxing, that grew out of the exact same type of competition that the WKF grew out of--separate organizations, yes, but the same type of sparring. The main difference that I have seen is that older point fighting either allowed contact, or required light contact to be made in a controlled manner such that the strike COULD be extended into the target to deliver a powerful blow, while WKF competitions require fighters to make contact at the very end of their strike, with no additional travel left to deliver a real blow. It's easier to transition into full contact fighting from a method where you get into the proper range than one where you don't.


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## CB Jones (Dec 6, 2018)

I’m not a big fan of the WKF.  I enjoy watching the old PKA and USKA type sparring.

But for me, Karate Combat fixes the problem with WKF by making it full contact.  I hope to see more non-WKF karateka fighting in it to give it even more flavor


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

Necro

What I think would go a long way to bringing karate more popularity in the combats sports sphere;
Full contact point fight, and karate combat to partner with local/regional promoters to set up ammy and semi-pro KC fights.


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