# Point of Origin?



## Clinton Shaffer (Jan 6, 2022)

Hello Folks!  I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being.  All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks.  Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions.  My knowledge ends there.  As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in:  the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what.  Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system.  I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that.  So, where does it all come from?  What is the point (or points) or origin?  What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned?  If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out.  So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base.  I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me.  Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 6, 2022)

People have been fighting each other for as long as our species has existed.  Every culture in every era has had its fighting methods, especially when real survival of the individual or the village or the clan depended on it.  Perhaps some cultures in some eras had developed systems to a higher degree of sophistication than others, perhaps some have simply been forgotten and we no longer know with accuracy what they had and how it might have compared to that of others.  

I think a lot of these stories are myth.   Bodidharma and Shaolin, for example.  I think that many systems developed among the many villages and regions in China.  They were the methods practiced by those people, for their protection, passed down from elders to juniors.  Some of these systems became famous, were brought into the West where we had a chance to see them, and others did not and remained obscure.  Sometimes fantastic stories were developed around them.   People found inspiration in the development of their methods, some of which came from nature.  I think it is unlikely that there was a straight line from watching an animal or watching two animals fight, to then making a complete system based on that.  But there could be a genuine source of inspiration buried in there, a nugget of historical truth that was inflated into a fantastic story.  Mileage may vary.

The system that I train is an animal system and has a creation story.  I’ve Researched the concepts in non-martial sources and it is my opinion that our creation story could be true, the elements are real, but I think we have no way of knowing with certainty that it unfolded in that way.  That is good enough for me.  The story is meant to give an identity to those who practice the system.  It is a mythology that may have truth in it, but does not need to be historically accurate.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2022)

I think anyone who claims to "know" these things is fooling themselves. The origin stories for most martial arts are composed of equal parts fact, fiction, mythology and nonsense.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think anyone who claims to "know" these things is fooling themselves. The origin stories for most martial arts are composed of equal parts fact, fiction, mythology and nonsense.



Well the fact is that's just fictional mythological nonsense


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 6, 2022)

Disclaimer: this is my opinion based on my own views and research. They are controversial but I have no idea why.  it seems to " trigger" some people.

Bodhidharma seems to be a convenient myth. It links martial arts to a higher purpose than just fighting. However there could be a kernel of truth to it. Many believe that Chinese martial arts was first developed on the silk road between India and China. It is thought Travelers often found themselves pray to criminals or vagrants.  Now before I go much further I want to point out I am talking about the origin of Chinese martial arts as we know them today. Meaning a possible direct link. Fighting is not exclusive to India, China or any Asian country. Fighting is universal.  
Ok.... now one prevalent hypothesis is that Alexander the Great and his troops pushed across the continent. Part of their training and a source of entertainment was Pankration. An ancient form of MMA. Alexander's troops pushed all the way to India and stopped there.  It is known that many Greeks and slaves settled down along the way in many countries. It is most probable that a large portion of troops settled in India, married local and passed on the practice of Pankration as it was as much entertainment as training.  The Indian culture had an existing practice of a proto-yoga which would have involved poses and movement for health benefits as well as a religious component. Thus Pankration and yoga merged and a form based martial art was born. This would have became useful on the silk road and the Chinese would have picked it up as the two cultures merged and intermingled. The Chinese would have began to adopt the concepts and integrated the forms into their own culture.  Humans are biologically designed to mimic. The concepts from other animals is a natural tendency for humans. For thousands of years hominids worshiped animals long before we developed Gods.  Animal mimicry is just part of human evolution. As the Chinese developed their own styles they would want to evoke the power of a tiger or the grace of a crane. But also we are biologically designed to fear and react to three predators snakes, big cats and apex birds like eagles. Other primates have specific calls for each. Troops need to know whether to run up the tree or down out of the tree. Having a respect for these apex predators we have a natural tendency to mimic them to subconsciously evoke the power and fear they generate.  Thus you see vikings and many other cultures that wear horns and animal skins as a uniform of ancient war.
The development of today's arts took approximately 2300 years. Not exactly an overnight success.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 6, 2022)

Clinton Shaffer said:


> Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system.


Animals fight better than humans, because humans have something they don't have.

All of the Chinese systems regarding animals are designed to show a human what is possible in terms of ability, they came about because ancient philosophers who also happened to train in combat, mused about their various abilities.  Two tigers fighting is a sight worth deep contemplation, is the basic idea.

Later things like the Wu Xing Five Elements were used to organize all of this into buckets based on similar energetics of motion.  The Water shaped fist smashes one direction, the Earth Shaped Fist another.

The best human fighting system looks nothing like Western boxing.    It looks like a human who can fight like a mystical man-animal made of earth, water, fire, metal, and wood.

Basically, Roy Nelson.  That beard alone is proof Dragons do exist.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The best human fighting system looks nothing like Western boxing. It looks like a human who can fight like a mystical man-animal made of earth, water, fire, metal, and wood.


Actually the best human fighting system looks like the military. Humans most developed weapon is the brain.  Multiple person team fighting with methodical, organised, well trained, synchronized tactics with a single aim.


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## letsplaygames (Jan 6, 2022)

History major here with a focus in Chinese history

Bodidharma was real. 5-6 century AD  In fact there is a lot of documentation on him because he traveled a lot in China (almost like an ambassador/religious statesmen from India and even was at the Emperors court.  Historians know He did visit a Buddhist temple and gave some form of Qi gong that morphed in a Quan fa. Buddist monks at that time already practiced a cultivated mental discipline...(still do... only a small % practice a Quan fa) That metal discipline probably was the catalyst for the Qi gong morphing into a Quan fa.  Bodidharma did not teach a martial art. 

Animal styles or styles that mimic animals was/are a Nan Quan  (i.e a southern fist)  There are some credible Chinese and Western Historians that think that there never was a Southern Shaolin temple(s).  The ruins that many point to as the southern temples bare no proof they were ever Shaolin  (actually two locations have been cited as southern temples)  That doesn't prove of disprove... could have been a sanctuary for the monks that fled from the North... History around this is still clouded.

Chang Quan or Long Fist... or more specifically Northern Long fist: a generic term to denote many styles in the north, i.e  Pao Chui, Cha Quan, Taizu Chan Quan, Fanzi Quan, Hong Quan,  Hua Quan  

Have their origins in the Tang and Song dynasty's (supposedly)  from 400-1100 AD etc

Chinese Historians surmise these branch or styles probably came out of older styles, going all the way back to the Warring States era.  Much that is thought original to Shaolin stems from these styles... Shaolin Monks put their spin on them.  

These Chang Quan were/are native to northern China, Korea and Inner Mongolia. Sanshou/Sanda is most popular in the north and has many practioner of Chang Quan that compete.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> Actually the best human fighting system looks like the military. Humans most developed weapon is the brain.  Multiple person team fighting with methodical, organised, well trained, synchronized tactics with a single aim.


Obviously, a group of man animals with Five Element training working as a pack, is superior to a single manimal.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> History major here with a focus in Chinese history
> 
> Bodidharma was real. 5-6 century AD  In fact there is a lot of documentation on him because he traveled a lot in China (almost like an ambassador/religious statesmen from India and even was at the Emperors court.  Historians know He did visit a Buddhist temple and gave some form of Qi gong that morphed in a Quan fa. Buddist monks at that time already practiced a cultivated mental discipline...(still do... only a small % practice a Quan fa) That metal discipline probably was the catalyst for the Qi gong morphing into a Quan fa.  Bodidharma did not teach a martial art.
> 
> ...


There were many southern Shaolin temples.  The idea that there was one unique one in the south to find as well as north is ridiculous.  Just trace the lineage of Chan Buddhism.

AS far as Damo, he was retroactively acknowledged by the Shaolin as their patriarch.  He replaced Vajrapani, just as the Shaolin staff replaced the Trishula as their signature weapon.

Animal styles are not unique to Nan Quan at all.  There are Praying Mantis lineages from the north, and there are Tibetan lineages that people don't like to talk about at parties that travelled all the way down to humble Canton and the surrounding areas, to become legendary in physical combat.

For the Shaolin Long Fist empty handed arts, those aren't 1000 years old.  Christopher Columbus is older than the Shaolin Long Fist.  

Those many Northern styles you mentioned, like the Wiki says it better, funny you both had the same order!  6/6
Subtypes of Long Fist​
_Pào Chuí_ (Chinese: 炮捶; literally "cannon punch") pre-Tang Dynasty;[5]
_Chāquán_ (Chinese: 查拳; Cha Yuanyi style) Tang Dynasty (618–907);[1][6]
_Tàizǔ Chángquán_ (Chinese: 太祖長拳; "Emperor Taizu (Great Ancestor) long fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279);[6]
_Fānziquán_ (Chinese: 翻子拳; "tumbling fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279);[1]
_Hóngquán_ (Chinese: 紅拳; "red fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279); and[1][5][6]
_Huáquán_ (Chinese: 華拳; "China fist") Tang Dynasty (618–907).[1][5][6]


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> _Hóngquán_ (Chinese: 紅拳; "red fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279); and[1][5][6]


There's a really funny story behind this one.

Big Red Flood Fist and Little Red Flood Fist walk into a bar.

Big Red asks Little Red what she'll be drinking.

Little Red says "who you callin' _she_?".


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## Instructor (Jan 7, 2022)

My martial art is modern compared to the history you are all discussing and people still argue about aspects of our history.


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## letsplaygames (Jan 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There were many southern Shaolin temples.  The idea that there was one unique one in the south to find as well as north is ridiculous.  Just trace the lineage of Chan Buddhism.
> 
> AS far as Damo, he was retroactively acknowledged by the Shaolin as their patriarch.  He replaced Vajrapani, just as the Shaolin staff replaced the Trishula as their signature weapon.
> 
> ...


Thanks…You  just repeated everything I wrote… and yes I took the list from wiki “FOR CORRECT SPELLING “ purposes only. 

would you like me to actually research the many style under the umbrella of Chang Quan and give a detailed account?  Would that satisfy you? 

i did not imply animal styles are only in the south… that said you point to one animal style in the north, I will point to 3 in the south.

Finally…  I don’t exist on this thread to puff up my ego… with gotcha’s and zingers…


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## clfsean (Jan 7, 2022)

Y'all are funny ...


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 7, 2022)

And what about jǐao dǐ" (角抵) that later likely morphed Shuaijiao (摔跤) 
​


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## clfsean (Jan 7, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> And what about jǐao dǐ" (角抵) that later likely morphed Shuaijiao (摔跤)
> ​


Don't forget Bokh that came in from the North ... Pankration from the West ... Kalaripiyattah from the South ...  oh, and Cain v Abel showing empty hand self defense against a blunt object didn't pan out too well either ... hehehehehehe

... which by the way most of this was poking fun at this whole notion.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> Disclaimer: this is my opinion based on my own views and research. They are controversial but I have no idea why.  it seems to " trigger" some people.
> 
> Bodhidharma seems to be a convenient myth. It links martial arts to a higher purpose than just fighting. However there could be a kernel of truth to it. Many believe that Chinese martial arts was first developed on the silk road between India and China. It is thought Travelers often found themselves pray to criminals or vagrants.  Now before I go much further I want to point out I am talking about the origin of Chinese martial arts as we know them today. Meaning a possible direct link. Fighting is not exclusive to India, China or any Asian country. Fighting is universal.
> Ok.... now one prevalent hypothesis is that Alexander the Great and his troops pushed across the continent. Part of their training and a source of entertainment was Pankration. An ancient form of MMA. Alexander's troops pushed all the way to India and stopped there.  It is known that many Greeks and slaves settled down along the way in many countries. It is most probable that a large portion of troops settled in India, married local and passed on the practice of Pankration as it was as much entertainment as training.  The Indian culture had an existing practice of a proto-yoga which would have involved poses and movement for health benefits as well as a religious component. Thus Pankration and yoga merged and a form based martial art was born. This would have became useful on the silk road and the Chinese would have picked it up as the two cultures merged and intermingled. The Chinese would have began to adopt the concepts and integrated the forms into their own culture.  Humans are biologically designed to mimic. The concepts from other animals is a natural tendency for humans. For thousands of years hominids worshiped animals long before we developed Gods.  Animal mimicry is just part of human evolution. As the Chinese developed their own styles they would want to evoke the power of a tiger or the grace of a crane. But also we are biologically designed to fear and react to three predators snakes, big cats and apex birds like eagles. Other primates have specific calls for each. Troops need to know whether to run up the tree or down out of the tree. Having a respect for these apex predators we have a natural tendency to mimic them to subconsciously evoke the power and fear they generate.  Thus you see vikings and many other cultures that wear horns and animal skins as a uniform of ancient war.
> The development of today's arts took approximately 2300 years. Not exactly an overnight success.


Hold on.  Just a point of clarification, There is no evidence that Vikings out horns on kn their helmets.  Furs?  Well that and wool… it’s cold as heck up there.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> Hold on.  Just a point of clarification, There is no evidence that Vikings out horns on kn their helmets.  Furs?  Well that and wool… it’s cold as heck up there.


Indeed. In point of fact, there has never been a single viking era helm found with horns. Not one. Further, in the art of that period, vikings are not shown with horns on their helms. 
The only period works that show horns are those depicting various dieties.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> Hold on.  Just a point of clarification, There is no evidence that Vikings out horns on kn their helmets.  Furs?  Well that and wool… it’s cold as heck up there.


Thanks. Was debating if I wanted to point that out-in their mythology animals do have a place, but there's nothing suggesting that they dressed up specifically in the style of animals, or that if they did that it was due to animals martial prowess.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 7, 2022)

clfsean said:


> Don't forget Bokh that came in from the North ... Pankration from the West ... Kalaripiyattah from the South ...  oh, and Cain v Abel showing empty hand self defense against a blunt object didn't pan out too well either ... hehehehehehe
> 
> ... which by the way most of this was poking fun at this whole notion.



We all know the only reason Cain was able to kill Abel was because Abel did not know the triple axel, spinning flibberty jibber, roundhouse jumping back-flip kick


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Thanks. Was debating if I wanted to point that out-in their mythology animals do have a place, but there's nothing suggesting that they dressed up specifically in the style of animals, or that if they did that it was due to animals martial prowess.


This is not to say they were anything other than crazy-pants.  Because they were definitely into some weird stuff.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> This is not to say they were anything other than crazy-pants.  Because they were definitely into some weird stuff.


I always thought the Picts were into some weird stuff. I mean, they went into battle naked, except for a coat of blue paint. And it's not like they were in the Bahamas...


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## Flying Crane (Jan 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I always thought the Picts were into some weird stuff. I mean, they went into battle naked, except for a coat of blue paint. And it's not like they were in the Bahamas...


I guess it’s incentive to keep moving, stay warm, kill as fast as you can.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 7, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> We all know the only reason Cain was able to kill Abel was because Abel did not know the triple axel, spinning flibberty jibber, roundhouse jumping back-flip kick


Of course not.  I wasn’t born yet.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I always thought the Picts were into some weird stuff. I mean, they went into battle naked, except for a coat of blue paint. And it's not like they were in the Bahamas...


They were all weird.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Thanks…You  just repeated everything I wrote… and yes I took the list from wiki “FOR CORRECT SPELLING “ purposes only.
> 
> would you like me to actually research the many style under the umbrella of Chang Quan and give a detailed account?  Would that satisfy you?
> 
> ...


You seem bothered. 

_"Animal styles or styles that mimic animals was/are a Nan Quan  (i.e a southern fist)"_

seemed like an implication to me.

I'd love a detailed account of all Chang Quan styles and connected styles, because I like detail.  I'd also love to discuss Lingnan Hung Kuen in Honk Kong cinema some time.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> And what about jǐao dǐ" (角抵) that later likely morphed Shuaijiao (摔跤)
> ​


Chinese wrestling came first, empty handed fist sets came last.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 7, 2022)

I think what needs to be established, and what everyone ought to understand and accept unaltered and unquestioned, is that the martial methods as they are practiced today were fully formed from day one by their respective (and respected!!!) founder, and more often than not, in a martial vacuum.  These fellows were brilliant and insightful to the extreme.  No standing on the shoulders of their ancestors for them, no sir!  Lacking any prior martial experience, they took a nugget of inspiration and with that, and with nothing else, created an entire methodology and system, usually with nothing less than 18 empty-hand forms and a good 18 weapons forms to boot.  And typically these fellows did it all by themselves, with no input or adjustments or contributions by others.  Those of us who have been diligent and paying attention in class have continued the propagation of the system exactly as it sprang forth fully formed from that martial vacuum, some abstract number of millennia ago in the primordial soup.

Accept it.  This is how it happened.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2022)

My art was founded by the Great Grand Poobah Grand Master 32nd degree black belt Ug, after he picked up a fallen branch and used it to persuade Agh to share his food.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> My art was founded by the Great Grand Poobah Grand Master 32nd degree black belt Ug, after he picked up a fallen branch and used it to persuade Agh to share his food.


Mandated generosity, I believe is the technical term.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2022)

Instructor said:


> My martial art is modern compared to the history you are all discussing and people still argue about aspects of our history.


Same. My primary art originated in the first half of the 20th century, and we still don't have solid evidence to back the most common origin story.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

Damo's origin story is a doozy.  What would make a hall full of monks in a remote mountain of China suddenly decide to venerate first a Buddhist deity, and then replace him with a fat, angry non-Chinese man who apparently was really into Yoga?

Jesus of Nazareth himself had similar problems to Damo.

I'm nowhere near their level.  I'm still stuck in the era of Tang Dynasty poetry.  Might never leave, there's just so much left to read.





__





						DHQ: Digital Humanities Quarterly: Reading the Quan Tang                         shi: Literary History, Topic Modeling, Divergence Measures
					





					www.digitalhumanities.org


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## letsplaygames (Jan 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You seem bothered.
> 
> _"Animal styles or styles that mimic animals was/are a Nan Quan  (i.e a southern fist)"_
> 
> ...


🤣🤣🤣


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

This is over 2000 years old.  

10 is an even number.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is over 2000 years old.
> 
> 10 is an even number.
> 
> View attachment 27911


This is pushing 2500 years old, too.  I think without too much difficulty, I could find some pankration stuff that's close to 3000 years old.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> This is pushing 2500 years old, too.  I think without too much difficulty, I could find some pankration stuff that's close to 3000 years old.
> 
> View attachment 27912


That's not a set of exercises.  That's dramatic art.

The ten postures above include stretches above the head, behind the back, hip flexors...


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> This is pushing 2500 years old, too.  I think without too much difficulty, I could find some pankration stuff that's close to 3000 years old.
> 
> View attachment 27912


But would it work in The Octagon?


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> But would it work in The Octagon?


I would bet that it would.  Same for the gladiators of Rome.


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## Steve (Jan 7, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> I would bet that it would.  Same for the gladiators of Rome.


Unless he’s talking about the Chuck Norris movie.


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## Instructor (Jan 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> We all know the only reason Cain was able to kill Abel was because Abel did not know the triple axel, spinning flibberty jibber, roundhouse jumping back-flip kick


One thing I'm fond of telling my students is being deadly is not really that hard. Any sufficiently motivated person with a heavy or sharp object can kill another person, no training required.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 10, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Thanks. Was debating if I wanted to point that out-in their mythology animals do have a place, but there's nothing suggesting that they dressed up specifically in the style of animals, or that if they did that it was due to animals martial prowess.


What about the bear sarks getting high and biting their shields? I don’t know this to be fact, but my understanding is they wore bear skins and imagined they were turning into bears because of the ergot or mushrooms they ate. Can anyone confirm this or refute it?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 10, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What about the bear sarks getting high and biting their shields? I don’t know this to be fact, but my understanding is they wore bear skins and imagined they were turning into bears because of the ergot or mushrooms they ate. Can anyone confirm this or refute it?


There are a lot of different mentions to them, from in saga's and from outside observer's, but from what I recall, most things actually refer to them as naked/in loincloths, rather than wearing leather of any sort. There are a few references to animals (mostly wolves), but those seem to be metaphors/similes of the author rather than sharing that they legitimately believe themselves turning into the animal, although obviously we can't know that for certain. These would be along the lines of, "they had the strength of an oxen as they barreled down", or "and they turned into wolves, ravaging everything in site". Neither of those are direct quotes, but a good sense of the type of thing that people interpret literally. 

People have suggested that they ate a hallucinogenic/poisonous (most likely henbane), although there is very little/circumstantial evidence actually suggesting this.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 10, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> There are a lot of different mentions to them, from in saga's and from outside observer's, but from what I recall, most things actually refer to them as naked/in loincloths, rather than wearing leather of any sort. There are a few references to animals (mostly wolves), but those seem to be metaphors/similes of the author rather than sharing that they legitimately believe themselves turning into the animal, although obviously we can't know that for certain. These would be along the lines of, "they had the strength of an oxen as they barreled down", or "and they turned into wolves, ravaging everything in site". Neither of those are direct quotes, but a good sense of the type of thing that people interpret literally.
> 
> People have suggested that they ate a hallucinogenic/poisonous (most likely henbane), although there is very little/circumstantial evidence actually suggesting this.


Thank you!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 10, 2022)

Clinton Shaffer said:


> Hello Folks!  I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being.  All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks.  Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions.  My knowledge ends there.  As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in:  the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what.  Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system.  I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that.  So, where does it all come from?  What is the point (or points) or origin?  What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned?  If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out.  So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base.  I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me.  Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?


Sifu Woo talked about this in his interview in Nei Jia Quan by Jess O Brien. If you are looking for some mythological origin story, you will be disappointed.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 10, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What about the bear sarks getting high and biting their shields? I don’t know this to be fact, but my understanding is they wore bear skins and imagined they were turning into bears because of the ergot or mushrooms they ate. Can anyone confirm this or refute it?


The biting their shields part stuck out to me, so I double-checked, and believed you may have heard that from the ynglinga saga. Full text here: THE YNGLINGA SAGA

Here's the quote in question describing berserker's from this saga:
"Odin could
make his enemies in battle blind, or deaf, or terror-struck, and
their weapons so blunt that they could no more but than a willow
wand; on the other hand, his men rushed forwards without armour,
were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong
as bears or wild bulls, and killed people at a blow, but neither
fire nor iron told upon themselves.  These were called Berserker."


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## Steve (Jan 10, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The biting their shields part stuck out to me, so I double-checked, and believed you may have heard that from the ynglinga saga. Full text here: THE YNGLINGA SAGA
> 
> Here's the quote in question describing berserker's from this saga:
> "Odin could
> ...


Oooh, I love that site.  That's a rabbit hole I fall into willingly from time to time... some really cool stuff there.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 10, 2022)

Steve said:


> Oooh, I love that site.  That's a rabbit hole I fall into willingly from time to time... some really cool stuff there.


It's incredibly useful when looking for a source for something.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 10, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The biting their shields part stuck out to me, so I double-checked, and believed you may have heard that from the ynglinga saga. Full text here: THE YNGLINGA SAGA
> 
> Here's the quote in question describing berserker's from this saga:
> "Odin could
> ...


Maybe that’s it. I read something a long time ago about it. That the sheild biting and drug used were related. Again, I have no credible knowledge of these things. I also heard that the word berserker means bear shirt, which sounds like they may have worn bear skin. There was also something about wolf and boar cults that were similar to the bear cult. Vikings are like the martial artists heroes of yesteryear, they have been elevated and attributed with super powers, so much so that the substance of their true nature is somewhat obscured. Horned helmets anyone?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 10, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The biting their shields part stuck out to me, so I double-checked, and believed you may have heard that from the ynglinga saga. Full text here: THE YNGLINGA SAGA
> 
> Here's the quote in question describing berserker's from this saga:
> "Odin could
> ...


So why the mention of biting the shields? Why is that in the description? It plays in oddly between mad as dogs or wolves, and, were strong as bears or bulls.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 10, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> So why the mention of biting the shields? Why is that in the description? It plays in oddly between mad as dogs or wolves, and, were strong as bears or bulls.


Ummmm.... going out on a limb here.... drama. Biting someones shield would be stupid. All it would accomplish is getting your teeth knocked out. The saga also says they killed people with one blow of their hands. Which is also nonsense.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 10, 2022)

Instructor said:


> One thing I'm fond of telling my students is being deadly is not really that hard. Any sufficiently motivated person with a heavy or sharp object can kill another person, no training required.



My Sanda Sifu (police Sanda) once said, Sanda is not the best, or most impressive martial art. It is just a quick and easy way to teach someone how to hurt other very badly


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## Unkogami (Jan 10, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Indeed. In point of fact, there has never been a single viking era helm found with horns. Not one. Further, in the art of that period, vikings are not shown with horns on their helms.
> ...


Well of course! The helmets just had holes in them. The Vikings grew horns out of their skulls!


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## Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers (Jan 11, 2022)

Clinton Shaffer said:


> Hello Folks!  I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being.  All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks. ... Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?



A lot to unpack in detail and I'll leave others to it, but the TL/DR version is that Shaolin became a clearinghouse for martial skills over many centuries -- people with skills and styles joined and added to its collective knowledge, while skills and styles were developed in turn that spun off or influenced other styles. There is no straight line here. It's all verywibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Ummmm.... going out on a limb here.... drama. Biting someones shield would be stupid. All it would accomplish is getting your teeth knocked out. The saga also says they killed people with one blow of their hands. Which is also nonsense.


They bit their own shields. Again, I have only read the stories, I have no historical knowledge of the subject. I assumed the shield biting was a result of the drugs or to pump each other up. Maybe to scare opponents?


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (Jan 11, 2022)

Clinton Shaffer said:


> Hello Folks!  I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being.  All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks.  Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions.  My knowledge ends there.  As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in:  the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what.  Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system.  I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that.  So, where does it all come from?  What is the point (or points) or origin?  What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned?  If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out.  So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base.  I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me.  Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?


The Indian martial art it came from is arahat hands. It's the basics of most kung fu. If you read the nie jia su wen and the books of Enoch you will come to an understanding of it in a few years.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> They bit their own shields. Again, I have only read the stories, I have no historical knowledge of the subject. I assumed the shield biting was a result of the drugs or to pump each other up. Maybe to scare opponents?


The result would be the same. You bite your own shield, I'll kick it. You won't enjoy that.
It's a saga. It's written for dramatic effect, not to document history.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The result would be the same. You bite your own shield, I'll kick it. You won't enjoy that.
> It's a saga. It's written for dramatic effect, not to document history.


I’m aware of the fact that the saga is fictional, the all father doesn’t really make people blind or deaf. There may however be some interesting historical facts that inform those stories.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The result would be the same. You bite your own shield, I'll kick it. You won't enjoy that.
> It's a saga. It's written for dramatic effect, not to document history.


You might be frightened by all that drama if you were some ignorant villager facing them in the field.


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## jergar (Jan 11, 2022)

H


Clinton Shaffer said:


> Hello Folks!  I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being.  All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks.  Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions.  My knowledge ends there.  As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in:  the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what.  Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system.  I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that.  So, where does it all come from?  What is the point (or points) or origin?  What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned?  If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out.  So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base.  I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me.  Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?


Hi, from what i've read over the years is that some of the arts indeed came from watching animals fight . Crane and tiger styles are  perfect examples of this . Yoga as well came from watching animals . The art that i've been practicing for 35 yrs. is totally different from the animal styles as you stated. What we know from the decendents of the Grandmaster Chin Siu Dek , known as Jimmy Haw Woo (1905-1991) after he migrated to America . This style is known in China as Five Family Style, Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung with each family contributing to the total art, but this came about as a result of soldiers coming home and becoming monks. These  monks are responsible for putting the system together from the experience of  warriors as a form of self defense. This art is based on circles ,triangles and straight lines of movement and strikes are directed to vital ares of the body. There are no animal movements involved. Shaolin was developed by monks also, so to me the difference has to do with who and when the different styles were developed. Look at Krav Maga it is a martial art born out of a need for an effective art for war. As ancient China and Japan were in a constant state of feuding factions the need to improve their fighting skills weather it be from watching animals or a constant need to better what they had would be a natural progression. I believe that the five animals are the physical side and the five elements are the harmonious or spiritual side of them. But since we weren't around then we may never know . Hope this makes some sense.  Peace .


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## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

For what it's worth, I would never think a Viking berserker would bite his shield while in combat.  But I could envision berserkers on one side of a line snarling, gnashing teeth, biting their shield, and doing whatever else to intimidate and demoralize their opponents.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I would never think a Viking berserker would bite his shield while in combat.  But I could envision berserkers on one side of a line snarling, gnashing teeth, biting their shield, and doing whatever else to intimidate and demoralize their opponents.








						Did Viking Berserkers Really Exist? And How Did They Fight? | HistoryExtra
					

Symbolising uncontrollable rage and bloodlust, Viking berserkers were fierce warriors said to have fought in a trance-like fury. But did such people ever really exist? Here, historian Kim Hjardar investigates



					www.historyextra.com


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Did Viking Berserkers Really Exist? And How Did They Fight? | HistoryExtra
> 
> 
> Symbolising uncontrollable rage and bloodlust, Viking berserkers were fierce warriors said to have fought in a trance-like fury. But did such people ever really exist? Here, historian Kim Hjardar investigates
> ...


Sadly I can't read that without a subscription, it seems


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 11, 2022)

My guess is that the shield-biting is a kenning that's actual meaning has been lost, as with many kennings. Either that or some then-infamous berserker bit through a shield as a display of strength, and it became a popular way of proving it. 

Neither of those guesses have any historical basis, but neither does anything else I've seen regarding that particular issue, so that's what I'm going with.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 11, 2022)

Grandmaster Yue men quan said:


> The Indian martial art it came from is arahat hands. It's the basics of most kung fu. If you read the nie jia su wen and the books of Enoch you will come to an understanding of it in a few years.


Say what now?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 11, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Sadly I can't read that without a subscription, it seems



Interesting, because I don't have a subscription and I read it


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I would never think a Viking berserker would bite his shield while in combat.  But I could envision berserkers on one side of a line snarling, gnashing teeth, biting their shield, and doing whatever else to intimidate and demoralize their opponents.


Exactly. However, I may have watched too many movies.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 11, 2022)

All I really see here is a bunch of people talking a lot but not really saying much about a topic the really know nothing about. This would include myself.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> All I really see here is a bunch of people talking a lot but not really saying much about a topic the really know nothing about. This would include myself.


Me too I’m totally out of my wheelhouse, I know nothing of this but I sure do like the banter. I have nothing of value to add.


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## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> All I really see here is a bunch of people talking a lot but not really saying much about a topic the really know nothing about. This would include myself.


Nowadays, everybody want to talk like they got something to say, but nothing comes out when they move their lips... just a bunch of gibberish, the mother-fathers act like they forgot about Dre.


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## letsplaygames (Jan 15, 2022)

Battle of Stanford Bridge  25 September 1066,  three days before  Duke William invades/ lands in south of England at Pevensey  

Anglo Saxon Harscarls  were truly and elite unit (having had to fight two consecutive battles back to back... marching there asses off to get to the south of England after defeating a massive Viking host that invaded the North of England )

One wonders if Duke William would have had a chance if king Harold and his forces were fresh.   Or if Harold was defeated... How would have Duke William faired against the Viking Army led by Harold's own brother Tostig and the Viking king Hardrada  

Saxon chronicles _(yes taken for Wikipedia ... much easier cutting and pasting shrug, heavy sigh...  ) _

The sudden appearance of the English army caught the Norwegians by surprise.[14] The English advance was then delayed by the need to pass through the choke-point presented by the bridge itself. *The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle has it that a giant Norse axeman (possibly armed with a Dane Axe) blocked the narrow crossing and single-handedly held up the entire English army.* The story is that this axeman cut down up to 40 Englishmen and was defeated only when an English soldier floated under the bridge in a half-barrel and thrust his spear through the planks in the bridge, mortally wounding the axeman.[15]
*
Berserker?*

anyway you slice it... cool history!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 15, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Battle of Stanford Bridge  25 September 1066,  three days before  Duke William invades/ lands in south of England at Pevensey
> 
> Anglo Saxon Harscarls  were truly and elite unit (having had to fight two consecutive battles back to back... marching there asses off to get to the south of England after defeating a massive Viking host that invaded the North of England )
> 
> ...


Ha any way you slice it! I see what you did there.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 15, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Battle of Stanford Bridge  25 September 1066,  three days before  Duke William invades/ lands in south of England at Pevensey
> 
> Anglo Saxon Harscarls  were truly and elite unit (having had to fight two consecutive battles back to back... marching there asses off to get to the south of England after defeating a massive Viking host that invaded the North of England )
> 
> ...


The English had no archers in their ranks?  Or slingers?  Of someone with some Javalins?  No missile weapons of any kind?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 15, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> The English had no archers in their ranks?  Or slingers?  Of someone with some Javalins?  No missile weapons of any kind?


It may have been raining hard.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> The English had no archers in their ranks?  Or slingers?  Of someone with some Javalins?  No missile weapons of any kind?


You would think so. The translation I typically use for the chronicles says 





> But there was one of the
> Norwegians who withstood the English folk, so that they could not
> pass over the bridge, nor complete the victory.  An Englishman
> aimed at him with a javelin, but it availed nothing.  Then came
> ...



But I've heard this story a couple times, from reputable sources. They state that archers/javelins missed him, likely due to bad weather conditions and placement of the bridge he chose to make his stand on. I don't think I've ready anywhere that the norseman in question was a "berserker", but that would make sense if the term was used, as hypothesied by some, as a term for royal guards.
It's a shame, but most of the written/verifiable sources were from their enemies, so the actual information is limited.


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## letsplaygames (Jan 17, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> The English had no archers in their ranks?  Or slingers?  Of someone with some Javalins?  No missile weapons of any kind?


One of my strange hobbies is heavy rattan medieval combat, (SMA, SCA ETC ) & Rebated steel medieval combat (Buthurt, Battle of Nation) etc (rule sets vary, some w/kicking & punching, some no thrusting, but throws are allowed... some if you get knockdown your out, some you can get back up. some are "pas de arms" submission through getting pummeled or thrown.   I prefer rattan leagues, it doesn't chew up your armor (your not always armoring)

It gave my Xingyiquan weapons study an outlet to say the least (started Xingyiquan about the same time as the SCA) around 18.  Now I'm 55 & kinda getting too old for much of my medieval pursuits, & Covid is keeping me from getting solid helmet time.  I'll probably play till I break something that won't heal .. 

Anyway.. I've been in some of the biggest melees ever reenacted. Over a 1000 per side with defined units, strategies, unit commanders, regional commanders, etc..  You get blood pumping, you're trying to keep you own head, while putting the smack down on the next guy in front of you, the rush, the din of battle.... 

Communication isn't forth coming.  

On the Battle of Stanford bridge
Sound like someone(s) was surprised, maybe the archers were in the back of the formation (hard to move to the front when no one will give way, when that happens it's even harder to form up. What is the time frame we are talking about?  **** happens pretty damn fast...
During one grand melee, situated in a pocket between two larger units going at it with units of similar strength, with a pole arm I managed to devastate a household of about 10--12 trying to squeeze through the gap. Like going through a doorway, one at a time... 3/4 of them were had their bells rung before the rest knew I was there.

Just hypothesizing:  Out of that 40 reported killed, a large % pumped up on adrenaline, probably rushed him not thinking.....  one at a time.. and he probably gave some ground.  I've seem pics of where the bridge supposedly was kind of like one peninsula bridged to another.

The Bows they used were of the short variety and I don't know what kind of range they had or power. Or what kind of formations & strength Harold had. I do know Duke William brought with him a units of short bows from Brittany and Anjou and used them to great effect against Harold's units

Spears.... NOT swords,  was the king of the battlefield during this era.  Isn't that what did the Viking in? A spear thrust from behind and underneath him? The Dane axe was used to render spear shafts useless or defend a shieldman  wasn't used offensively in a push that often. You see similar support weapons combinations through history by different cultures and nations.  

Swiss and German Two handed swordsmen embedded with pike units (performing similar tactics)
Chinese Ming dao units embedded within  Qiang Units
Samurai Nodachi units embedded with Yari units  etc

Not sure how you guys got on this topic LOL... I saw someone typed  *Berserker* and the story of Stanford Bridge came to mind.

Peace


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## Damien (Jan 18, 2022)

Clinton Shaffer said:


> Hello Folks!  I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being.  All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks.  Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions.  My knowledge ends there.  As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in:  the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what.  Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system.  I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that.  So, where does it all come from?  What is the point (or points) or origin?  What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned?  If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out.  So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base.  I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me.  Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?


OK a Shaolin practitioner, once upon a time college studier of Buddhism and erstwhile archaeologist weighing in here. Some of the below is conjecture, however, I'm pretty confident that what happened was something like the below. Myth usually has some kernel of truth in there, and when it comes to Shaolin, we aren't actually going back that far, there was writing and records and political systems all of which would have noted many of these things. Such documents may not exist now, but they would have for some time afterwards. The spread of Buddhism for example is pretty well documented and understood.

So, back to the beginning...Martial arts in some form have been around for tens of thousands of years. As soon as our ancestors moved from instinctual attack with hands and feet to being more reasoned we have the beginnings of martial arts. I find it inconceivable that an early hominid didn't look at a stone tool they made for cutting, hunting butchering etc. and think, I could use this on someone else. There is evidence of inter-personal violence very early in our records. If they were teaching technique to create and use tools (which they must have been, each generation wouldn't learn this stuff fresh) and they were fighting, even going to "war" with other groups, then they were certainly teaching the younger generation how to fight. So in this sense martial arts have been around as long as human beings have. Codified practices, manuals, styles etc obviously all come later, but even taking it back to the ancient Greeks is not far enough for its true origins.

Now returning to Shaolin specifically. The story of Bodhidharma is evidentially a myth, however it is a fact that Buddhist practices spread from south Asia into China, and someone or a group of someone's must have bought that with them. Buddhist practices vary between different sects, some emphasising self reflective seated meditation and study of scripture, others less so. The former style would be more akin to Theravada and the later to Chan (what is practiced at Shaolin). Originally however the style that was prevalent in China was Mahayana. The Bodhidharma story is linked to the Shaolin Temple's adoption of Chan which has less focus on study of scripture, less personal enlightenment through seated meditation and a stronger link between master and student. This developed into Zen (similar but different) when it was taken to Japan. There likely was a teacher travelling around teaching this new style (how else would it have emerged), and he may well have come from India, rejecting the conservative tradition of Theravada Buddhism. What does this have to do with martial arts? Well one aspect you see in Shaolin is the idea of moving meditation, i.e. focussing on one's movements and breathing as a way to focus, rather than using breath focus alone of prayer beads in sitting meditation. This combined with the idea that certain movements were good for the health of the body and would help promote a healthy mind too (likely from yoga style practices) is likely the origin of qi gong.

Jumping into the future the Shaolin Temple/Monastery became large, rich and powerful in the local area, as big religious institutions tend to. Within Buddhism one of the duties of the lay people is to look after the monks, although being practical types it's probably fair to say that they likely farmed etc. for themselves too, as is the case with monks in Medieval Christian institutions, and can possibly be seen in certain movement patterns with Shaolin kung fu.

During this time martial arts were practiced in and around the temple (as they were all over the world), but not necessarily in it. The ideas of training for health as well as defence likely permeated here to. There are a number of different concepts in Chinese philosophy that link health, organs, internal energy, movement practice etc.

The Shaolin myths suggest, and we can probably accept that there is some level of historical fact to this, that the temple became the target of bandits. The temple is located in an area that was something of a crossroads in medieval China, with a lot of people travelling through it, so there would be plenty of opportunity for people to be aware of, and to prey upon the temple. Bearing in mind the many religious traditions within China, and indeed the unscrupulousness of some people in general, there is little doubt that some would covet and seek to take some of that wealth. Learning martial arts was a way for the monks to defend themselves and their property. Non attachment to material things is a principle of Buddhism yes, but on an institutional level, preserving the institution for the future benefit of others would be seen as important. They could also help protect their community from in times of need. Just as the community looks after the monks, so they should look after the community. 

The monks could therefore have learnt from practitioners in the many villages in the area. With some many people travelling through the area, they likely learnt from travellers that visited the temple too; there would be military expeditions militias etc. moving through the area.

Buddhist monks practicing martial arts is unusual, so word of this likely spread. This in turn probably lead to martial artists deliberately visiting. There are also records of people seeking sanctuary at the temple, such as political exiles from the military, who would also have known various fighting systems (armed and unarmed). This gave the monks the opportunity to learn more styles, creating a location which was something of a melting pot for martial arts. This is why you see so many different styles in Shaolin, and have so many styles claiming to descend from it.

As well as the health element to the variation in style, you have concepts of mass training. As some of the influencers on Shaolin martial arts were from the military, they would have been used to training large groups at once, using predefined sequences of moves. Much of this would have been based around armed combat. In order to facilitate ease of training, some of the same concepts and movements would have been applied to armed and unarmed training. This is why certain movements don't look optimised for hand to hand combat. Combine that with exaggeration for demonstration to large groups (you see this in the changes to Karate stances as it becomes widespread in Japan vs Okinawa), and the northern kung fu style promoting a lot of flexibility and you start to see where the divergence from something like wrestling and boxing come. A classic example is punching from ma bu (horse stance) to yao bu (walking stance, often mislabelled these days as gong bu). The same mechanics are being used as in a boxer's cross, but on a much larger scale. Practicing something large scale is easier to generate power and emphasises range. Perfect for if you are trying to use a spear to punch through armour. As you become more proficient you can learn to generate power on a smaller scale (bringing the rear foot in closer), and it becomes more applicable to hand to hand.

Finally turning to the idea of animals. On this one, I'm less certain, however I expect a lot of it is just made up. I expect there may have been certain amounts of inspiration from the "personality" of different animals, and certain things seen in nature may have sparked the imagination of someone with regards to the use of body mechanics. Beyond that, I think it is marketing. Tiger style sounds cool, doing moves that look like a snake makes your style look interesting, using the power of a dragon sounds mystical. Doing performances in these styles likely promoted the kung fu of certain teachers and made people want to learn it. This may or may not be directly associated with Shaolin, but it certainly appeared there eventually. These days a lot of those animal styles in Shaolin are just for show. Traditional Mantis kung fu for example doesn't have that classic mantis pose and shake most associate with it, its a modern invention to make it look cooler.

Chinese martial arts can be quite poetic in their language to describe movements and concepts, and this likely played into it as well. "Pluck the moon from the sea" is a great example, the moon being the head and the sea your sensitive private parts. You grab one to drop the other. 

More recent styles likely took these ideas and ran with them. In some cases no doubt creating genuine applications from imitation movements, but the idea that kung fu originated out of copying animals is just a story in my opinion.

That ended up being a far longer post than I intended, but @Clinton Shaffer, hopefully that answers your questions!


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## letsplaygames (Jan 19, 2022)

Damien said:


> The story of Bodhi dharma is evidentially a myth,


I still believe he existed... but not in the relevance many think.

 I think the dates of his existence and hence his age are skewed. He seems to have existed somewhere around the end of the Northern and Southern Dynasties and the birth of the Sui Dynasty... pretty chaotic era. 

 Accounts of Bodhi dharma's life have been based until recently on largely hagiographical materials such as the Jingde chuandeng lu  written in 1004 AD.   However, discovery of the "Dunhuang manuscripts"  found in Central Asia at the turn of this
century has led Chinese scholars to question the authenticity of the accounts  in Jingde chuandeng lu  (certainly the dates within) 

The oldest text in which in which Bodhi dharma's name is mentioned is the _Luoyang qielan ji, _a description of Buddhist monasteries in Luoyang :  It  written in around 547 by Yang Xuanzhi.  Bodhi dharma's name is mentioned is the _Luoyang qielan ji,  _
In Yang Xuanzhi work, a monk called Bodhi dharma from  the western regions” (possibly Persia) is said to have visited Yongning Monastery.
This monastery was built in 516 and became a military camp after 528. Consequently, Bodhi dharma's visit must have
taken place around 520.  (but... that's all that is mentioned about Bodhi dharma's in that text) 

Probably the most important source for Bodhi dharma's life was written by Daozuan in 645 AD, called  Xu Gaoseng Zhuan,  It states that Bodhi dharma was a brahman from southern India. After studying the Buddhist tradition of the Greater Vehicle (Mahāyāna), Bodhi dharma decided to travel to China in order to spread Mahāyāna doctrine.  Daozuan cites Bodhi dharma's arrived by sea at Nanyue, in the domain of the Liu Sung dynasty  and later traveled to Lo-yang, the capital of the Northern Wei.  Daoxuan stresses that Bodhi dharma's teaching, known as “wall-gazing” (biguan),  was difficult to understand compared to the more traditional and popular teachings of Sengchou (480–560). 

Daoxuan concludes by saying that he does not know where Bodhi dharma died.  After Daoxuan.  historical context gets clouded, Bodhi dharma seems to get placed in history as a founder of the Chen Sec of Buddhism

_That's some pretty decent secondary source material...  Yes not primary source (actual words written by Bodhi dharma , or written documents of a biographer or chronicler proven to have existed during his time.    _

*Most of the above is paraphrased from the sit*e: 

* https://terebess.hu/zen/bodhidharma-eng.html*

Of particular note is the BIBLIOGRAPHY that the site used 


> Demiéville, Paul. “Appendice sur ‘Damoduolo’ (Dharmatra[ta]).”
> *In Peintures monochromes de Dunhuang* (Dunhuang baihua),
> edited by Jao Tsong-yi, Pierre Ryckmans, and Paul Demiéville.
> Paris, 1978. A valuable study of the Sino-Tibetan
> ...


check it out for further info


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 19, 2022)




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## Damien (Jan 20, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> I still believe he existed... but not in the relevance many think.
> 
> I think the dates of his existence and hence his age are skewed. He seems to have existed somewhere around the end of the Northern and Southern Dynasties and the birth of the Sui Dynasty... pretty chaotic era.
> 
> ...


I agree, he likely was a genuine historical person who helped spread Buddhism in China. I should have been clearer; by the story of Bodhidharma I meant the whole him coming to Shaolin, saying the monks were rubbish, refusing to teach them until one of them cut off their arm and then sitting in a cave for 8 (?) years bits.

There certainly would have been exchange of ideas amongst the Buddhist community. Whether Bodhidharma himself ever specifically visited the temple, or specifically taught the monks there qi gong we'll never know.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

Damien said:


> I agree, he likely was a genuine historical person who helped spread Buddhism in China. I should have been clearer; by the story of Bodhidharma I meant the whole him coming to Shaolin, saying the monks were rubbish, refusing to teach them until one of them cut off their arm and then sitting in a cave for 8 (?) years bits.
> 
> There certainly would have been exchange of ideas amongst the Buddhist community. Whether Bodhidharma himself ever specifically visited the temple, or specifically taught the monks there qi gong we'll never know.


Really?


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## clfsean (Jan 20, 2022)

Where does a movie intro fit in?


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## letsplaygames (Jan 20, 2022)

clfsean said:


> Where does a movie intro fit in?


If you feed it…. It will stay.


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## clfsean (Jan 20, 2022)

Paul Calugaru said:


> If you feed it…. It will stay.


Should be a no feeding sign up ...


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

clfsean said:


> Where does a movie intro fit in?


Because I posted that in the wrong thread...was supposed to be in the Southern Dragon thread.  Oops!

The Southern Dragon style elements are clearly visible in the intro, as well as the other two Immortal animals of Shaolin, Snake and Crane.  Not to mention a heck of a lot of Buddhist qigong in between.

If that wasn't obvious to Wing Chun, Five Southern Family, or Five Ancestor students...it should have been.

I know because I train this style extensively, brass rings and all, and I know its history, which is vast and colorful and interconnected between styles across all of Asia.  And like with all things that travel the globe, they come back home to re-energize, which is how we got a Damo action figure.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

Ever wonder why the largest Japanese painting of Damo, the Great Daruma, actually has him smiling?

Of all the many expressions of his memory, this is the one that makes me laugh the hardest.  I think it's an inside joke.


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## clfsean (Jan 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Because I posted that in the wrong thread...was supposed to be in the Southern Dragon thread.  Oops!
> 
> The Southern Dragon style elements are clearly visible in the intro, as well as the other two Immortal animals of Shaolin, Snake and Crane.  Not to mention a heck of a lot of Buddhist qigong in between.
> 
> ...


It's Gordon Liu ... it's Hung Ga. Multiple parts of multiple sets, pieces and sequences shown as most Shaw Bros movies, especially with the brothers involved.

But ok ... 👍


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

clfsean said:


> It's Gordon Liu ... it's Hung Ga. Multiple parts of multiple sets, pieces and sequences shown as most Shaw Bros movies, especially with the brothers involved.
> 
> But ok ... 👍


I think of it as Hung Ga+.


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## clfsean (Jan 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think of it as Hung Ga+.


It's all movie fu to me ...


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

clfsean said:


> It's all movie fu to me ...


Here let me put these 10 weighted metal rings on your forearms and have you jump all over the place, it'll be like VR with force feedback.

Crap, internet isn't that good yet.  Maybe some day.

Getting back to the actual topic, I think Damo is a great case study to stick with discussing.

He's basically the kung fu Jesus of Shaolin, even though he may never have actually been to Songshan, they sure loved him there.  They replaced artwork with his image, replaced Vajrapani's staff with his own.  He made such an impression in so many directions, other countries developed entire religions based on his teaching.

I find the fable of him teaching monks to be stronger with Indian or Persian exercise methods fascinating.  It's got a very "aliens built the pyramids" vibe, like the Shaolin were all lazy and daydreaming until Bodhidharma came with his mystic arts and magically enlightened the lot.

The actual history is a lot bloodier.  The temple's monks were athletically skilled and adept with weapons, so they were conscripted constantly into Imperial service against raiders.  That bought them treasure and influence in the Imperial court, which of course burned them centuries later when the dynastic wings shifted.


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## clfsean (Jan 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Here let me put these 10 weighted metal rings on your forearms and have you jump all over the place, it'll be like VR with force feedback.
> 
> Crap, internet isn't that good yet.  Maybe some day.
> 
> ...


I love working rings. I prefer Muk Yi Pai, but Sek Si, rings, jars, sandbags, etc... all fun to me especially with long arm stuff.

Anybody ever read Meir Shahir's work?


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

clfsean said:


> I love working rings. I prefer Muk Yi Pai, but Sek Si, rings, jars, sandbags, etc... all fun to me especially with long arm stuff.
> 
> Anybody ever read Meir Shahir's work?


His book was great, I read it a while back and use it to fact check a lot of Shaolin tales.  The best part about that book is that so much is actually true, even if a lot has been muddied over the years.

Best thing I learned from that book, the true Shaolin staff history, which is just as impressive as it sounds.  I never pick up my long weapons anymore, don't feel the need.  But my staff is in my hand all day long.

Another guy you should really read is Dr. Benjamin Judkins, visiting scholar at Cornell East Asian Studies program.  He basically did for Wing Chun what Shahar did for Shaolin.


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## Damien (Jan 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Here let me put these 10 weighted metal rings on your forearms and have you jump all over the place, it'll be like VR with force feedback.
> 
> Crap, internet isn't that good yet.  Maybe some day.
> 
> ...


The whole spread and development of Buddhism up into northern and eastern Asia is an interesting and, in my opinion at least, slightly bizarre progression. You end up with some very different ideologies emerging in the various Buddhist sects which are a long way from the traditional approach. Tibetan Buddhism is a great example, with a lot of focus on deities which in older traditions were simply seen as more powerful beings, possibly closer to enlightenment but not something to specifically worship.

Then you get things like True Pure Land Buddhism which has the aim of getting to heaven, not the non-existence of enlightenment and teachings such as being kind is more about trying to increase your own sense of worth than benefiting others, and therefore makes it harder to get into heaven.

With the Mahayana tradition and especially it's development in to Chan I can see the reason for the strong emphasis on a great founding figure at Shaolin though. The idea of student and master became a lot more important, with the master being key to helping the student reach enlightenment. Having a great mythical founder adds legitimacy to that continuing line of master to student. An idea which continues to this day in Shaolin as evidenced by their generational structure, where a disciple takes the generation name after their master's. This means you have some people in their teens who are an older generation that people in their 50s. In certain Zen schools the master relationship became so important that students could gain enlightenment via it being directly beamed into their heads.

The more it Buddhism travels from it source, the more mystic it seems to become at which point it loses me somewhat. But perhaps that was to be expected, the open and inclusive nature of the philosophy almost encourages it to mix with local traditions as it spreads.

Shaolin certainly don't shy away from their bloody history though. Things like the Wheel of Life tour, which was one of their first really large scale international cultural forays told the story of monks rescuing the Emperor from bandits using force. The uncovered shoulder in their robes supposedly represents the monk that convinced Bodhidharma to teach them; he had said it would have to snow red snow first, so on a freezing day the monk chopped off his arm and the blood that sprayed out froze. 

This history of violence didn't appear fully formed though, it had to emerge at some point and likely post the founding of that particular monastery, since the practice of kung fu is not common elsewhere amongst the Buddhist clergy. This suggests that the monks at the temple went from normal peaceful monks to warrior monks at some point. This likely developed over time as teachings changed, health based practices evolved, and ultimately the need to defend themselves became more relevant.

The warrior monk idea seems to spread with the Chan philosophy since you get warrior monks in Japan not that long after the introduction of Buddhism with a mix of various Mahayana traditions, including Chan. I'm not sure what it is about Chan that might encourage such practices, possibly the idea that anything can me a form of meditation, and you can have meditative practice in movement and daily activities. Is war a form of meditation? Quite possibly it's just a reflection of growth in power and influence which tends to create a desire for protection and further expansion even in religious institutions. The medieval knight chapters such as the Templars are a great parallel. 

I don't know if you get the same sort of thing emerging within pre-Mahayana sects. My knowledge of Theravada history pretty much stops with the spread north of Mahayana. Anyone know of any Theravadan warrior monks?


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## Ivan (Jan 20, 2022)

Clinton Shaffer said:


> Hello Folks!  I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being.  All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks.  Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions.  My knowledge ends there.  As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in:  the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what.  Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system.  I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that.  So, where does it all come from?  What is the point (or points) or origin?  What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned?  If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out.  So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base.  I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me.  Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?


For starters, my own readings on the subject led me to believe that Bodhidharma taught the exercises to the monks, not because they were falling asleep, but because of the long hours of studying and hunching over, their bodies were becoming hunched, malformed, weak and painful.

In terms of the origins, animals are more alike in the way they move compared to us than you think. Here is a video showing similarities in combat between humans and animals:


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

Damien said:


> In certain Zen schools the master relationship became so important that students could gain enlightenment via it being directly beamed into their heads.


That's where I am.  That right there is the heart of the entire Shaolin Chan tradition, and what Bodhidharma spent every year staring at a wall thinking about.

What so special about a flower, compared to a rock?  Ha.

拈花微笑 is the formal Chinese name.  微 is the funny part.


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