# Are there any American knife fighting styles?



## Leo89

And more importantly, how would you practice/spar using a knife fighting system?

I know there's eskrima (seems like everyone and their mother knows about it) but what little to now near non-existant training I had was with plastic bats.

I guess what I'm asking is, are there any knife arts that focus on using pocket/combat knives?


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## drop bear

reality based self defence. is a sort of umbrella heading for guys who train in that direction. But they generally are doing a Philippino system of some sort.

Otherwise you just get a training knife folder and try to shank each other with it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

There absolutely is training in using them, although I do not know of a specific system that focuses on it beyond RBSD. When I've trained in it, we use rubber knives or the like, but I have also heard of people who will coat a fake knife in something that will rub off when it makes contact, so that people have a realistic idea when disarming of what would have happened to them. I have no idea what they might use for that, but it's what I've heard...

Also, this is not the answer you are looking for, but many native american tribes teach knife fighting, so those would be "american knife fighting styles"


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## MI_martialist

I am a little confused...will a knife perforate or sever differently depending on the style or will just perforate and sever?  Concerning training with a pocket knife, why would it be any different than training with any knife?  Of course, there are unique characteristics, but focus on the similarities first...after all, a "folder' is a "fixed blade" once the blade is locked open.


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## Leo89

MI_martialist said:


> I am a little confused...will a knife perforate or sever differently depending on the style or will just perforate and sever?  Concerning training with a pocket knife, why would it be any different than training with any knife?  Of course, there are unique characteristics, but focus on the similarities first...after all, a "folder' is a "fixed blade" once the blade is locked open.


A lot of people carry pocket knives, so that's why I ask. Seems more practical than carrying around a machete. 

You can't really hide a machete in your pocket.


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## Charlemagne

Not really.  There are few that claim to have some sort of Native American fighting system, but closer examination shows that they are full of it.  For example: Apache Knife Combat School-Nagondzoog

We use rubber Boker training knives, but in the past I have used aluminum trainers as well. 

As for sparring, I have done it differently depending on where I was training, from using lipstick on the edges of the aluminum trainer with a white shirt so that you could see the marks, to using the rubber knives, which leave a red mark all by themselves if the shot is hard enough.


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## frank raud

MI_martialist said:


> I am a little confused...will a knife perforate or sever differently depending on the style or will just perforate and sever?  Concerning training with a pocket knife, why would it be any different than training with any knife?  Of course, there are unique characteristics, but focus on the similarities first...after all, a "folder' is a "fixed blade" once the blade is locked open.


Size of blade is relevant to techniques. Smaller blades work extremely well in bad breath distance, not so good at arms length. If your training starts with your blade in your hand, it is not being trained in a realistic manner. Practicing accessing your blade takes into consideration placement, opening techniques and whether you can open knife in an adrenalized state. You can't use a 3" blade as an effective "chopper" for lopping off limbs like you can a machete. But in a tangle, when you are chest to chest, much of the machetes advantage is lost as there is no room to swing. With a small blade, you have to take compression cuts into consideration for maximum damage, not a concern with a bolo.
 Although there are many similarities between any edged weapon and another, how it is best utilised is dependant on size and shape. In a kitchen, you wouldn't use a paring knife to carve a turkey, nor would you probably peel a potato with a cleaver.


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## frank raud

For American systems of knife fighting, you could look at Bowie knives, but again that is a large blade that does not transfer well to smaller folders. Loo at the works of guys like James Keating, Ray Floro or Southnarc for using smaller blades.


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## Blindside

frank raud said:


> For American systems of knife fighting, you could look at Bowie knives, but again that is a large blade that does not transfer well to smaller folders. Loo at the works of guys like James Keating, Ray Floro or Southnarc for using smaller blades.



Or Keating for his big knife work with his bowie material.


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## Juany118

Blindside said:


> Or Keating for his big knife work with his bowie material.


Absolutely.  He is also big on Kali, or at least was (he was one of the guys my Guro studied under.)

As to the OP, I study FMA and for sparing we use pretty ridged plastic knives, for drills aluminum trainers and my Guro keeps talking about getting a couple of shock knives.

The thing you run into with FMA is that there are so many styles that the weapons skills you will study can vary greatly.  

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## frank raud

Blindside said:


> Or Keating for his big knife work with his bowie material.


Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to say Keating for big blades, Ray Floro and Southnarc for small blades.


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## ShortBridge

You might check out MacYoung, if you're not familiar with him. Media and seminars, though if you happen to live near him, maybe there are other options.

Marc "Animal" MacYoung on knife fighting

As for sparring, I've done training with knives that had a felt-like surface that gets covered in either lipstick or chalk, so that you know if you got "cut" or not. There are also training knives that administer a low grade shock, which is probably good training, but ... I'll let you guys explore that one.


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## Juany118

ShortBridge said:


> You might check out MacYoung, if you're not familiar with him. Media and seminars, though if you happen to live near him, maybe there are other options.
> 
> Marc "Animal" MacYoung on knife fighting
> 
> As for sparring, I've done training with knives that had a felt-like surface that gets covered in either lipstick or chalk, so that you know if you got "cut" or not. There are also training knives that administer a low grade shock, which is probably good training, but ... I'll let you guys explore that one.


We just put the chalk on thick on the plastic lol.  As for the shock knives my Guro keeps thinking about, they are 7,000 volts.  I don't know if I would call that "low grade"


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## ShortBridge

Juany118 said:


> ... they are 7,000 volts.  I don't know if I would call that "low grade"



Not it!


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## drop bear

Juany118 said:


> We just put the chalk on thick on the plastic lol.  As for the shock knives my Guro keeps thinking about, they are 7,000 volts.  I don't know if I would call that "low grade"



It is amps that do the damage.

It is the $400 that has detered me.


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## Buka

AMOK Knife Fighting is an American knife fighting style. Tom Sotis is the founder.

I like Nok trainers for practice/sparring. Been using them for thirteen years now, haven't needed to replace them. (just bought more because I like them)


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## Charlemagne

Buka said:


> AMOK Knife Fighting is an American knife fighting style. Tom Sotis is the founder.
> 
> I like Nok trainers for practice/sparring. Been using them for thirteen years now, haven't needed to replace them. (just bought more because I like them)



Tom Sotis trained FMA from my understanding.  Their newest website does not have his bio on it that I can tell, but i'm pretty sure it was on the old one.


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## Juany118

drop bear said:


> It is amps that do the damage.
> 
> It is the $400 that has detered me.


Let's look at a taser.  I am going to omit the muscular interference you get if you fire it from range with proper probe placement or if you do a "three point" contact (probes + drive stun at a different location), just a drive stun.  Here is a video.






Now you hear all about "50,000 volts" when it comes to tasers.  That isn't actually the ride you take though.  The 50,000 volts is simply the initial level of energy that is expended so the charge can arc a bit to still effect someone through baggy clothing and the like.  The actual charge that effects the body, or causes the pain you see in the video via a drive stun is only 1,200 volts.  So the knife actually delivers 6 times the voltage a taser does.

Now of course the application is different but I needed to be taser to carry it and that 1200 volts is a SOB... No doubt about it.


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## drop bear

Juany118 said:


> Let's look at a taser.  I am going to omit the muscular interference you get if you fire it from range with proper probe placement or if you do a "three point" contact (probes + drive stun at a different location), just a drive stun.  Here is a video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you hear all about "50,000 volts" when it comes to tasers.  That isn't actually the ride you take though.  The 50,000 volts is simply the initial level of energy that is expended so the charge can arc a bit to still effect someone through baggy clothing and the like.  The actual charge that effects the body, or causes the pain you see in the video via a drive stun is only 1,200 volts.  So the knife actually delivers 6 times the voltage a taser does.
> 
> Now of course the application is different but I needed to be taser to carry it and that 1200 volts is a SOB... No doubt about it.



An electric fence is about 7,000


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## Juany118

drop bear said:


> An electric fence is about 7,000



And the point there is that you touch it and let go quick.  Have an asshat with a shock knife and it's like the drive stun with a taser.


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## drop bear

Juany118 said:


> And the point there is that you touch it and let go quick.  Have an asshat with a shock knife and it's like the drive stun with a taser.



Up to 25,000 volts from static electricity.

And the point is still amperage.

Oh.  And the knife has settings. You dont have to go full noise.


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## Juany118

drop bear said:


> Up to 25,000 volts from static electricity.
> 
> And the point is still amperage..


And static electricity in terms of duration is a strawman.  A taser is proven, it uses a whopping 0.0021 amps.  So yeah...the pain is still sure as hell equal on lower settings and greater on the higher. 





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## Buka

Charlemagne said:


> Tom Sotis trained FMA from my understanding.  Their newest website does not have his bio on it that I can tell, but i'm pretty sure it was on the old one.



I know him rather well, did a lot of training at his house in Rhode Island for many years. Tom's trained a lot of things, he is a very serious man. And, yes, he's trained lots of FMA. Trained down there, in the jungles. He has, shall we say, a rather interesting relationship with many of the FMA Masters down in the Philippines.

Someone mentioned the "machete". Personally, I hate the damn things. Probably because I'm not very good with them. But he always made us include them in our training, you know why? Because it is the most common blade, worldwide, used for killing. Tom travels more in a two year span than I have in my whole life. And I travelled a lot. That's the only drawback to training with him, he's away a lot.

He lives in the world of Letter Agencies, a contractor for their field agents, both over and covert. He lives in the world of Military Camps, a contractor for them and mercenary groups working alongside the U.S Government. He lives in the world of some of the worst prisons in the world, training people who work there. And he lives in the world of the Jungles, maybe where he feels most at home. I actually knew _of_ him, through Federal Law Enforcement, before I met him. Sure glad I did. The man knows the knife. He is as serious as a heart attack.


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## Charlemagne

Buka said:


> I know him rather well, did a lot of training at his house in Rhode Island for many years. Tom's trained a lot of things, he is a very serious man. And, yes, he's trained lots of FMA. Trained down there, in the jungles. He has, shall we say, a rather interesting relationship with many of the FMA Masters down in the Philippines.
> 
> Someone mentioned the "machete". Personally, I hate the damn things. Probably because I'm not very good with them. But he always made us include them in our training, you know why? Because it is the most common blade, worldwide, used for killing. Tom travels more in a two year span than I have in my whole life. And I travelled a lot. That's the only drawback to training with him, he's away a lot.
> 
> He lives in the world of Letter Agencies, a contractor for their field agents, both over and covert. He lives in the world of Military Camps, a contractor for them and mercenary groups working alongside the U.S Government. He lives in the world of some of the worst prisons in the world, training people who work there. And he lives in the world of the Jungles, maybe where he feels most at home. I actually knew _of_ him, through Federal Law Enforcement, before I met him. Sure glad I did. The man knows the knife. He is as serious as a heart attack.


I haven't had a chance to train with him, or even really see his stuff.  What I was getting at was that his system is not an "American" one as it is going to largely be based on FMA with regards to the knife.


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## Tony Dismukes

Charlemagne said:


> I haven't had a chance to train with him, or even really see his stuff.  What I was getting at was that his system is not an "American" one as it is going to largely be based on FMA with regards to the knife.


I suppose it depends on your definitions. We have plenty of people on this forum who will insist that modern jujutsu systems developed in the US or Europe from a foundation of Judo/Aikido/Karate are not really Japanese. By that same logic, FMA-derived systems developed in the US would be American, not Filipino.


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## Buka

Charlemagne said:


> I haven't had a chance to train with him, or even really see his stuff.  What I was getting at was that his system is not an "American" one as it is going to largely be based on FMA with regards to the knife.



You might very well be right, I've never actually trained FMA. 

Of course, then we get into other areas. When an art is changed, regardless if it's base is similar, there's usually some screaming about "That's not such and such!"

I'm used to being screamed at. I train American Karate.


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## Juany118

Tony Dismukes said:


> I suppose it depends on your definitions. We have plenty of people on this forum who will insist that modern jujutsu systems developed in the US or Europe from a foundation of Judo/Aikido/Karate are not really Japanese. By that same logic, FMA-derived systems developed in the US would be American, not Filipino.


Oh I can see the debate now with Guro Dan Inosanto being Filipino-American.  He can have it either way


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## arnisador

I taught an intro-to-FMA seminar last night and a student of James Keating was there. He had some good stuff, though it seemed to assume you'd be using the kind of knife that raised the philosophical question of when a blade stops being a long knife and starts being a short sword (whereas I tend to focus more on folder-size knives). Very much focused on the Bowie knife, which is certainly an American system to my mind. He had in his bag a head mask, boxing gloves, etc. that he uses for knife sparring to test his stuff out. Makes sense to me! 

Speaking of the machete, there are certainly _South_ American fighting styles focused on the knife and/or machete.


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## Juany118

arnisador said:


> I taught an intro-to-FMA seminar last night and a student of James Keating was there. He had some good stuff, though it seemed to assume you'd be using the kind of knife that raised the philosophical question of when a blade stops being a long knife and starts being a short sword (whereas I tend to focus more on folder-size knives). Very much focused on the Bowie knife, which is certainly an American system to my mind. He had in his bag a head mask, boxing gloves, etc. that he uses for knife sparring to test his stuff out. Makes sense to me!
> 
> Speaking of the machete, there are certainly _South_ American fighting styles focused on the knife and/or machete.


Yeah, my Guro was a student of Keating (Keating started Kali in 1982 and my Guro started with him in 1995).  My Guro is also a huge fan of the Bowie knife.  Last night he had us doing a technique that I would call a "generic" knife fighting technique that he said only works with a 6" or longer blade, so that seems to fit in with the "Bowie" obsession lol.


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## Buka

I don't know about you guys, but knives scare the crap out of me.


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## Blindside

Buka said:


> I don't know about you guys, but knives scare the crap out of me.



Me too, so I study it a lot.


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## Juany118

Buka said:


> I don't know about you guys, but knives scare the crap out of me.



I will be honest, one of the reasons I study Kali is because a knife scares me more than a gun.  If a person knows what they are doing you can be face to face with someone and not know they have a knife until it's to late.  With a gun at least I know it's coming.  We say "they should feel the knife before they see it."

Add to that the fact my vest will protect from a slash but not a solid thrust and it gets even twitchier.  Years ago I actually acquired a old school metal trauma plate for a concealed vest.  I have that behind the more modern soft trauma plate of my vest. It only covers the heart but it's better than nothing.


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## Charlemagne

It's an ambush weapon which is always a scary idea.  But, it's also a great force multiplier at close quarter so, as already mentioned, I train it often.


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## KPM

Blindside said:


> Or Keating for his big knife work with his bowie material.



Dwight McLemore did a series on Bowies and big knives for Paladin that is pretty good.


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## Sami Ibrahim

American Kenpo Combatives System


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## frank raud

Sami Ibrahim said:


> American Kenpo Combatives System


e
Is this all knife, all the time? Is there a subset of knife techniques? Defensive or offensive? Or Both?


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## Sami Ibrahim

frank raud said:


> e
> Is this all knife, all the time? Is there a subset of knife techniques? Defensive or offensive? Or Both?


 
It works without a blade too but than its just Kenpo, this is a method developed by a Marine Vietnam Vet, who became the Instructor for 10th Special Forces group, (retired from that as far as I know) his name is Mike Pick he was a student of Ed Parker. Not a lot of information out there about this method but anyone I ever ran into in the Military that had trained in it spoke highly of it and the particular knife they use. I believe the organization involved with this method is called UKF, United Kenpo Federation. 

I don't know what you mean by Defensive Knife Techniques, The only knife techniques I know of are for killing with a knife.


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## frank raud

Sami Ibrahim said:


> I don't know what you mean by Defensive Knife Techniques, The only knife techniques I know of are for killing with a knife.


If you were to check out Bram Frank or Mike Janich, you would examples of knife systems built around the defensive use of the knife.


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