# Shaolin Do?



## SRyuFighter (Jan 5, 2003)

I have a friend that is about to start in an art called Shaolin-Do. I have a few concerns because I am afraid that he is being lead into the completely wrong direction. At this place they wear Karate Gi's and use Japanese terms. Which I thought would be fine if it was a Kempo place. However, it is supposed to be a pure Shaolin Kung Fu place. I was somewhat confused so I asked if I could take one of their free classes. I must say that I was not impressed at all. I am wondering if anybody has had any experience in dealing with this place. I asked my sensei about the place and he said that he wouldn't reccommend it, and to tell my friend to go elsewhere. Any thoughts. You can check out their website at http://www.shaolin-do.com.


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## yilisifu (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes, they are DEFINATELY not a legitimate form of Shao-lin.  They try to trace their lineage back through some monk who was afflicted with a disease which covered all of him (including his face) with long hair.

   I have had a few students over the years who have attended classes in this bizarre art (some schools boast that they teach literally DOZENS of forms.....).  What they learned was absolutely worthless.

   I won't say it's kenpo because I have much respect for kenpo people.  

   It's simply a rip-off.

   However - I have my kung-fu students wear karate-style uniforms as they are much more rugged, durable, and practical than the mainstream "kung-fu uniforms..."


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 5, 2003)

Those were my thoughts exactly. I however being a Karate man in no way shape or form claim to know a lot about Shaolin Kung Fu that is why I went here for help. Thank You.


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2003)

I believe it's been discussed here before but unfortunately the search function is down! I believe we have a member who studies it.


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 5, 2003)

I would be interested in talking to him. Do you know who he is.


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## Skarbromantis (Jan 6, 2003)

Shaolin -do  is as fraud as it gets, go to any board or forum and the answer will be the same, there grandmaster is a guy covered with hair on his face, as I was told it was taken out of a 70's ginness book of world records, and that they use it as a picture of the master, weird...

No good school, with no good teachers with no good , grandmasters, = Shaolin- do 

Skard1


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## Matt Stone (Jan 6, 2003)

Shaolin-Do teaches, last I heard, _over a hundred_ forms.  Given that I am working hard, after 16 years, to be halfway decent at the few I know, I find it almost impossible (well, okay, not almost) to believe that a "grandmaster" (the first neon sign of a bad school) claims to have "mastered" (second neon sign) over a hundred...  No way in H-E-double hockey sticks that a person has the time to stay current in that many forms.

I saw a brown belt class of SD back in 1991 in Colorado Springs.  Pitiful.  I won't go into further detail (unless somebody asks really nicely), but suffice it to say that if that is how their senior students train and fight, I really want to be jumped by about 30 or them...  Might even work up a sweat.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 6, 2003)

thanks.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 6, 2003)

Um, ouch...

You guys really got kind of personal on this, huh?  While I don't presume to state that Shaolin-Do is necessarily worthy of respect as a martial art, its practitioners, though deluded and conned, are still people...

Might be a little friendlier in the future...  If I went off on how some of the folks that are respected around this place (Wally Jay, Georgie Dillman, etc.), I would get flamed and banned.

Funny stuff, though...  Especially the biscuit one.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:



*Mod Note: This post refers to several posts that were tossed due to crossing the line. - Kaith *


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## Kirk (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Um, ouch...
> 
> You guys really got kind of personal on this, huh?  While I don't presume to state that Shaolin-Do is necessarily worthy of respect as a martial art, its practitioners, though deluded and conned, are still people...
> ...



Apologies, you make a solid point.


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## Searcher (Jan 6, 2003)

Actually, the grandmaster of Shaolin-do, Sin The', claims to know over *900* forms.  There is a list floating around somewhere of the entire systems that were supposedly handed down through his teacher. 
At one point a few years back, he was teaching seven star praying mantis forms at seminars.
He also claims his yang tai chi forms are from the Shaolin temple, but they are actually some kind of form that wasn't created until the 50's. Not sure on the specifics, it's not really my area.  That stuff is only the beginning.  He's been discussed to death on many forums and esp on rec.martialarts.  Do a search on dejanews.com

Stay away at all costs.


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## arnisador (Jan 6, 2003)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1394


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 6, 2003)

*Moderator Note: *
We have removed the offending posts from this thread...

Please review this forums  rules. 

While we can take a few lighthearted chuckles, several of the comments made crossed the line into personal attacks on individuals who can not defend themselves here.



:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 7, 2003)

Moderator Note:
Complaints on the moderation of this thread have been moved to the support forum.  

Please restrict comments here to factual information concerning the history and validity of this art.

Thank you.


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## streetwise (Feb 4, 2003)

In Austin, Tx, the Shaolin Do guys have the strangest style, a couple of the forms are very nice, old school Hung Gar, but most look like something made up by a beginner, after watching a couple of demos. They opened a school next door to where I worked, so  I got to watch them train (in the back parking lot). The "moves" are like the style they claim, but the "movement" is not. It is like they never saw ANY of the fundamental training for most of the styles they claim. All the internal styles I saw were bad, with the BaGua being the worst. Much of the weapons work also lacks an understanding of the fundamental principals, but there is an occasional gem (I saw a nice N Shaolin spear form, once)
On the plus side, they had some guys in great shape, and they sparred pretty hard.  They were very friendly, even after they knew I was unlikely to sign one of the "plans" they kept offering me.

In short, if you just want to train, they do go at it with gusto. If you want CMA, you should probably look elsewhere. As with ANY place these days, BE CAREFULL WHAT YOU SIGN UP FOR, some of those contracts looked a little shady.


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## Antares33 (Feb 5, 2003)

I started out studying at one of these schools, under masters David and Sharon Soard, in Denver CO. They were under the same grandmaster and teach the same system as the people at the http://www.shaolin-do.com site but actually downplay their relationship with these people for the obvious reasons. I had never heard of the GM knowing 900+ forms claim until recently when I read it off another forum.

I started going a little over 5 months ago, brand new to the martial arts, they seemed good enough to me, though I didn't know what I was really looking for. Someone who knew a little better had warned me against contracts, and they offered a month to month payment system which suited me just fine. The only bad thing I noticed right off the bat was that the classes were packed, we barely had enough room to stretch, let alone spar.


I started studying 3-4 times a week there around august 20th.

Received my Yellow belt September 7th

My Blue belt October 5th

My Green Belt November 23rd.

I continued studing until just before christmas, and was about 2 weeks away from "earning" my brown belt.

I would have been a brown belt after 5 whole months of training. 
When I was testing from yellow to blue, I was really only there to offer moral support to a friend, I was nowhere near being ready to test. . We were supposed to have learned 10 new "Lohan Short forms" which are a set of 30 short forms of 4-5 moves each that link together. I blanked out after the first two, bowed out and stood to the side expecting to fail the test and go back to training as a yellow belt. This was fully 1/4 of the new material I was being tested over.


I passed the test. 

Did I mention there was a $45 testing fee not including $5 for a patch for my uniform?




On the plus side, the school works it's students out quite hard, and will whip you into shape. We also sparred regularly, and the black belt students occasionally sparred full contact. The techniques I learned, at least through the green belt level (after which the training consists almost entirely of long forms) were fairly practical for the most part. I don't view my training there as a waste of time so much as a stepping stone into the real world of Martial Arts. At least I wasn't walking away after signing a 2 year contract.


On the plus side, I began to notice how much bad publicity the schools had been getting over the internet and toured around the other MA schools in the area. It wasn't until then that I began to realize that some of the bad mouthing going on over the internet was right. I still don't think the techniques I learned were bad, (though I might still be a little ignorant on the subject) but the school was 100% more concerned with getting my money than with teaching me Kung Fu.


Sorry about the long *** post, but I thought some people here might want to hear a first hand account.


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 5, 2003)

Well done it was a good post. I now have some respect for Shaolin-Do just not a whole lot.


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## ECYili (Feb 6, 2003)

I competed against a practioner of shaolin-do at a tournament in Las Vegas.  It was in balck belt forms division.  I and the rest of the competetors were wondering if he was doing karate or kung fu when he was performing his form.  I used to do Tang Soo Do before I began my kung fu trainning.  His form looked very simular to the forms I used to do as a green gelt in TSD.  It definately had a karate feel to it.  I would have never thought it was a kung fu form.
  He was a nice person and put alot of spirit into his form so I have nothing bad to say about the person.

dan


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## BIGtiny (Feb 10, 2003)

My story is about the same as Antares.  I trained SD for about 6 months, with much the same results.  While I was getting a lot of material (and spending lots of $ for test fees, sparring gear and weapons), I wasn't getting much of a basic foundation or too many applications for the material we learned.  SD folks were always pushing "extra" seminars on the weekends for this form or that form, but I could hardly see how ANYONE could want and or need MORE material...??  At blue belt I had learned 22 short forms, 19 one step/ street techniques, 3 long open hand forms, 1 weapon form, 25 self defense techniques... blah blah blah....  I quickly went to the net to find out more information about the style, and began to question the practice (thanks to this and several other community sites ).  I began to search out some other schools here in Austin, and after taking a couple of free classes from them, I was convinced that I was going to switch styles.  I switched to 7*PM under Sifu Jeff Hughes here in Austin, which has been a extremely positive experience for me.  I have to say that SD wasn't a waste of time.  I definitely got in shape, and learned HOW to learn KF, if not KF itself.  I certainly couldn't have made it in my 7* classes w/o the 6 months I had in, before beginning  .  The fact is, however, that SD uses lots of marketing to 'sell' their art (very successfully I might add), when I submit that the art should be able to 'sell' itself.  Contracts are enforced because their churn is HIGH, as the pace is enough to chase away a lot of people from the art.  Ah well, my first higher lesson in MA seems to be one borrowed from common sense "A fool and his money are soon parted".     
-Bt


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## Radhnoti (Feb 17, 2003)

I train in shaolin-do now, though I've trained briefly in other styles as well.  Been in since just after Jan. of 2000.  I've never paid my instructor a dime for teaching (he does it 'cause he loves it), but I have had to pay the testing fees.  I don't find this unreasonable, as the head man of the style flies in to give us the test from CA (I'm in KY).  My understanding is that each "lower" (non-brown) belt REQUIRES 3 months between each test period.  When you hit the three brown belts it's a requirement that you wait (at least) 6 months between each test.  I've been at it 3+ years and will be going for my black in a few months.  I've tested for my next belt every time I've been allowed to do so.
I think the serious shaolin-do teachers see the belts before black as a "patience test", and the black-belts all say the "real" training begins at black.  Thus far I'd have to classify SD as "kung-fu's greatest hits".  It's like you get a bit of info about an "external" kung-fu style with each belt, but never enough time to master it (assuming you want to press on when allowed to do so).  White Crane, a shaolin bird style, tiger, one mantis form, tiger,the 30 "short forms" are derivative of tan tui, at least one new weapon each belt (I'm learning my 3rd staff form now)...the amount of material is daunting.

Training will vary WIDELY from school to school, as I've already seen.  To be honest, the only REQUIREMENT to advance from belt to belt is a test in which you perform the proper forms when requested and a brief sparring session.  In practice, each teacher is expected to teach application, conditioning drills and special exercises, general style history,  gradually increase the level of sparring...just a WHOLE lot more.  But, for the teacher trying to make a living at it I can imagine the temptation to placate the students through advancement would be pretty high as it would be such an easy path to follow....and that would certainly lead to watering things down.

Regarding later training, black belts are slowly encouraged to find their own preferred path of training, and most seem to focus on a particular style the falls under the umbrella of shaolin-do.  In fact, to be a shaolin-do  "master" one will have complete knowledge of one "large" and one "small" style.   My instructor is looking long and hard at our style's version of "black tiger"...which I have heard has 14 forms and hsing-i...which has 6 or 8, forgive me for not remembering that specific, as I can not even imagine reaching that point.

On a semi-personal note, I almost never mention my style online at any other forum these days.  Why join in the discussion here?  I sincerely appreciate the moderator's attempts to reign in the non-pertinent attacks.  There's plenty to attack SD on factually without making things so personal.     So, thanks again for making the "climate" more tolerable, and if there's anything anyone wants to ask me I promise I'll re-check this thread every so often and do my very best to get an answer.


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## arnisador (Feb 17, 2003)

Is it indeed the case that there are 900 forms? I take it you are saying that most are optional?


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## Antares33 (Feb 18, 2003)

Grandmaster The claims to know 900+ forms, but the cirriculum through 6th black, which is as far as my manual goes is something more like 160. Theres also a set of 30 short forms, which link together to make what is more or less an extremely long form.


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## Radhnoti (Feb 19, 2003)

...I doubt he always is capable of performing any of 900+ forms.

In his book he tells a story of how his master taught him to have a photographic memory.  And I KNOW he has a good memory, he's always remembered my first name since our first introduction.  I've also heard a (second-hand) story of his visiting one year to a school and saying that he always meant to learn Spanish, and the next year showing up and speaking fluently with a native speaker.  These are the facts proudly displayed by anyone who feels he could easily memorize so many forms.

My feeling that he can not is bolstered by the fact that I've heard many higher ranking students refer to GM Sin "reviewing his notes" before bringing out a new form, as at his last Shaolin-Do Invitational.  Also, a certain court case in which he was involved saw him bringing forth (as I understand it) detailed notes from his training as a youngster.

So, being kind, I think it possible that he has been exposed to 900+ and took notes that these forms may be preserved.

Also note...short kata are probably counted, and that's 30.  Assume he knows the "traditional" (Tan Tui) steps, that's 108 isn't it?  The early stuff is pretty short.

Antarres is correct as well.  My instructor is soon testing for 3rd black and he has been exposed to around 120 in his 18 years...forms he feels comfortable teaching is a much smaller number.  Forms he would claim to have "mastered", even smaller I'd say.  

The curriculum up to black is set.  After black, you can (as far as I can tell) learn ANYTHING that anyone of higher rank is willing to teach.  There are "suggested" times to show things...for example, the 8 drunken immortals require great flexibility and precision...so it is suggested that they be held back until say 4th black.  But, my instructor is feeling my group out right now to see what we might be interested in learning after we test (and hopefully pass) our black belts.  He has shown us a list of 20 or so forms, explaining the pros and cons of each (that one is long, but not to physically demanding...that one is short, but very physically demanding with it's two 360 kicks into front splits...that's moderate and moderate, etc.) so we can get an idea of what we want to pursue.  One of the forms I KNOW is "suggested" for 4th black that he's offering...he says it's "hard and very long".  :shrug:


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## pesilat (Feb 19, 2003)

Huh. There's a Shaolin-Do school not far from where I'm living. One of my students trained in the system briefly years ago. He's a black belt in a system of Karate -- I believe it's Isshin-ryu but could be mistaken. He said the SD wasn't bad material, but it wasn't everything it's cracked up to be.

I may have to go check this place out so I can form my own opinion of it.

I first heard of SD from a friend of mine. There was a school near his college. He never went there, but he met the instructor a few times. Said the guy was an arrogant blow-hard. Doesn't mean anything one way or another about the art.

Then I saw a SD school in Anderson, IN while visiting my parents. The place was closed when I saw it (it was on a Sunday).

I went out and looked at their website and it sent up quite a few of my caution flags.

My student who trained in it briefly said that they're definitely sincere about what they do. Whether the material is legitimate or not is a whole different issue.

I may have to visit the school near me so I can form my own opinion. But I doubt I'll ever have the time to do so.

Taking a tangent here ... knowing a bunch of forms may or may not be suspect. Depends on what you consider a form. Many Silat systems use "jurus" (short hand forms) and "langkahs" (foot paths, lower body forms). And many also have "kembangan" (flower dances). If I count up all of these that I know, it's over 60 "forms." But, except for a longish kembangan, most of these are 5 - 10 motions long (some of the langkahs near 20 motions).

When I add in the Kuntao forms (which are longer forms) that I've got, that's 5 more.

If I count the angling systems from Filipino arts as forms, then that's another 4 or 5.  Then I've also got 3 actual stick forms (which merge into one longish form). If I add in the knife templates (which could be counted as forms), then that's another 6. If I add in the 2 person flow drills which could be considered forms, then that's another dozen or so.

That means that, using my personal interpretation of "forms" (which may be looser than some people's interpretation), I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 forms. And that's just the ones that I can do on-demand about 90% of the time (I occasionally have brain-dead days).

There are a handful of others that I might be able to pull out of my memory if I really felt the need. And there are at least 50 that I've been exposed to but don't know off the top of my head (but I know where to go to find them if I ever feel a need to learn them).

900 does seem a little extreme. But until I started counting, I wouldn't have thought I'd have 100 either.

Like I said, this was totally tangential to the topic. I just got to thinking and counting and realized that I know quite a few "forms" 

Mike


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## Drunken Arhat (Feb 28, 2003)

Just to add some contrast,

I ve trained for nearly three years and have only advance one belt. There are only 5 belts in my style but in reference to how fast shaolin-do advances it seems a bit fast. I train 3-4 nights a week, so I can not see how anyone can retain that much material in that amount of time. I have won full contact matches and forms comps so i wouldnt say that i suck.
Just seems weird,

Drunken


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## zen_hydra (Apr 3, 2003)

I have formally studied Goju-Ryu Karate, Yoseikan Budo, and I currently study Shaolin-do gung fu.  I have seen a lot of negativity expressed towards Shaolin-do here and on several other forums, and I am not sure why.  I went looking for Chinese martial arts with a critical mind.  I am no fool.  I know what kind of con-men, and opportunists are out there.  I went into this with my eyes open.  I don't know about the experiences of others with Shaolin-do, but I live in San Antonio, and after attending for the school for two weeks, for free I decided to give the school a try.  They seemed to be the real deal, and nothing I have seen or experienced has shown me otherwise.  We train hard, and everyone I have encountered here has been sincere and open. Fair play and love-of-learning are encouraged, and bravado, and ego are checked at the door.  New material is always forth coming, but is always built on top of what you have already learned.  I have seen forms performed by members of other CMA schools, and on video tapes, and they compare favorably to the kinds of forms that we learn.  So I don't understand the arguments that Shaolin-do teaches some sort of watered down art.  Does Shaolin-do cover too much, different material (too much variety, not enough focus)?  Maybe.  For many people it probably does cover too much ground, too quickly, but I don't necessarily see that as a fault with the school, so much as a challenge to students who strive for greatness.  As I stated above, I have had nothing but good experiences with this art.  The same can not be said for my prior martial arts experiences.  I have been a student of Shaolin-do since July 2002, and I would be happy to discuss any questions or comments that people have regarding Shaolin-do.


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## arnisador (Apr 3, 2003)

That's great that it's good for you! I think the 900+ forms is what causes people to wonder--it seems like it must be too much for one person to know.


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## SRyuFighter (Apr 3, 2003)

Yea it's definitely the forms thing. Thanks for posting!


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## dogma173 (Apr 4, 2003)

I checked out there website and it seems fine.  But I see they like to mix japanese martial arts with shaolin kung fu.  I'm not trying to say this makes them bad, but usually most masters do not mix separate arts.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 4, 2003)

I can understand the doubt about knowing 900+ forms.  I have met Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' on several occasions, and he has always been humble, earnest, and soft spoken.  I have never heard him personally claim to know 900+ forms at any given time.  I believe he may very well have been exposed to that many different forms during the course of his studies, and may have written notation for many of them.  At the same time I don't know that he doesn't know that many forms.  He is not given to bragging, or showing off, so I don't know what the actual truth of the matter is, but his actions, and the actions of the masters under him have never given me cause to question their verity, or their motives.  From what I understand, Grandmaster Sin started training in the martial arts at a very young age, and with great intensity.  I would never be the kind of person to say something can't be done.  I personally believe that the human potential is far greater than most people understand.  How many of you believe in qi energy?  I am willing to believe a great many of you do, but most western medical doctors (or people in general for that matter) would tell you that they have never seen proof of anything like qi.  That doesn't mean qi doesn't exist.  Doctors are now admitting that acupuncture seems to work even though they don't understand why.  My point, again, is that just because something seems difficult for anyone to achieve doesn't mean it isn't true.  Does Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' know 900+ forms?  I don't know... but he might.


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## SRyuFighter (Apr 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dogma173 _
> *I checked out there website and it seems fine.  But I see they like to mix japanese martial arts with shaolin kung fu.  I'm not trying to say this makes them bad, but usually most masters do not mix separate arts. *



Yep and that makes me wonder too. They claim to be straight Shaolin Kung Fu. Yet they have Kata and ippon kumite. Hmmmm. Oh well if it works it works. Good luck in your training Zen Hydra.


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## ecw1701 (Apr 4, 2003)

Greetings all

It doesn't seem like anyone on this thread actually takes Shaolin Do classes, so I felt I should comment:
I am a 1st Degree Black Belt in Shaolin Do.  I am an assistant instructor in both the Kung Fu and Tai Chi programs at my school.
www.shaolincenter.com 
First, I'd like to clear up a few discrepancies, please bear with me:
Note, this is paraphrased from www.shaolin-do.com
The 'guy covered in hair' was named Su Kong Tai Jin, and is the Great  Great Grandmaster (teacher's teacher's teacher) of our System.  He lived and studied at the Fukien Temple in China.  He passed on what he knew to I Chan Ming, the Great Grandmaster of our system.  After the destruction of the Fukien Temple, I Chan Ming fled to Indonesia, and in order to escape from massive anti-Chinese sentiment in the area, disguised his art as a Japanese style, hence the Japanese Gi's and belt ranking system.  Our Grandmaster, Sin Kwan The studied under I Chan Ming, mastered the system (over 900 forms) after 15 years of training 8 hours a day, and moved to the US where he has taught since the 60's. 
At least, that is the official story
In reality, a look at his brother's site  http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list.html reveals some inconsistencies in the story.  
While I feel is is unlikely that the GM knows over 900 forms, I would not say it is impossible.  The problems as I see it with SD are two fold:
1. It is a LOT to take in.  It takes extensive personal practice to become even half way decent with your material (At Black Belt in Kung Fu, and nearly Black Sash in Tai Chi, I have over 20 long forms and over 60 short forms; I do not claim mastery in any of them, only proficiency).  While it is true someone who has focused on only one or two styles will be 'better' at them then a SD student of comparable training, the SD student will have a wider range of techniques to draw from to fit the situation.  This is the 'standard' explanation, and I for one agree with it.  Ultimately it is a matter of choice; to be focused or comprehensive.  To spend 10 years on 1 style or 1 year on 10 different styles
2. The MAJOR problem with SD is the belief that it is 'the best', the 'most comprehensive', etc etc.  It has been my experience that most of the practioners of this system only have a limited knowledge of other styles and what they do.  There is a (usually)unspoken assumption that we do it 'better', or if we train long enough, we'll learn it eventually (since SD encompasses ALL styles taught at ALL the Shaolin Temples).  More than anything else, it is the egotistical drive to declare our superiority in the light of our dubious origins, that causes practioners of our style to look foolish to most people.  
I will conclude with this.  I have no illusions about learning 900 forms ever, much less in this system.  Senior Masters with over 30 years experience barely have over 100.  What I do get from it, is a sampling of different styles, and an insight into their strengths and weaknesses, as well as my own strengths and weaknesses.  I recommend SD to anyone who wants to get into fantastic shape, learn effective self defense, and is not overwhelmed by a fast pace.  Go to a school, watch a class, and watch the teachers.  The level of skill they exhibit is the level of skill they can teach to you.  It is up to you to reach or exceed it.  If you don't like what you see, move on.  
I would ask that you all not be too critical of us and what we do, especially if you don't have first hand experience training with us.  Our system has strengths and weaknesses, as every system does.  We have good teachers and bad teachers.  In the end it is the man in the fight who will win or lose, not what style he practiced or who taught him.  If you work hard at this, or any style, you will get what you need.


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## eneref (Apr 4, 2003)

I've studied Shaolin-Tao (that's how we spell it, anyway) now for a little under 2 years.  I was no fool when I came in... I made sure I knew what I was getting into. 

The lineage that is espoused by the many websites and teachers is contrived. I know this. I've seen the documentation. Why this is, I've no idea... marketing perhaps... but to be honest, I dare anyone to definitively tell me the lineage of Wing Chun.  Not the 3 possibilities... the actual one. MOST martial arts become nebulous when you go back too far. That's simply the nature of history.

Shaolin-Tao's Grandmaster, Sin Kwang The' was given his grandmastership by his teacher/grandfather because he was the eldest grandson who was studying the art and that is his birth right. Does this make his grandmastership false? No. Does it make him bad at kung fu? Hardly.

His style of kung fu was originally taught to him his Chinese grandfather, Ie Chang Ming. He studied at the Chung Yen kung fu school in Bandung, Indonesia. Where his grandfather trained is still somewhat of a mystery. The official line is he learned his art from Su Kong Tai Djin, the official beginner of the art. The real story? Like most arts... shrouded in mystery, half-truths, legends, and outright made up stories. He's dead. We can no longer ask him.

Sin The's brother used to also teach with Sin the Shaolin-Tao art they both learned. However, there was some rivalry there, and now, his brother no longer uses the Shaolin Tao name. He went back to using the name of the school in which they both trained, Chung Yen.   http://www.centralshaolin.com/

So far, what I've said has to do with the history. It's contrived. To what level is hard to say... the name, certainly, is likely suspect. But what's in a name?

The art itself is another story.

Many people start in Shaolin-Tao and work until about brown belt or just before and then give up, thinking what they learn is useless. To some degree, it is.  This is, for all intents and purposes, a probationary period. This is the weed-out time.  They build up your level of conditioning, and give you some very simple introductories into many different styles so you will know some of the names, some of the history, and a lot of the foundation moves for many of the more advanced forms you'd see later on. 

Are you going to be a kick *** fighter after 6 months to a year of into material? No. Are you going to feel the style, and learn the basis of a system? No. You're going to learn some stances, you'll learn some moves, and you'll see if any of it reall appeals to you. 

Once you become a black belt, then the training truly begins. The styles become more focused, and you're encouraged to pick a style that suits you. It's up to YOU to work on it as much as you can to attempt to 'master' the forms or the style. Will you ever? In a lifetime? I'd argue no. Some would argue yes. To me, Kung Fu is a journey with no end. There will never be a time in my life I cannot improve on what I know. Does this mean I should stop trying to learn more? Hardly. Specialization is for insects. Humans should be able to do so much more.

The problem so many have with the art is that they take what they can from the glitzy marketing websites, and the rumours and hearsay, and they elaborate on it a little... and perhaps see it from their perspective. 

We don't use Japanese uniforms at my school. We don't use Japanese names for the forms... or for our ranks. I think the original decision to do so may have stemmed from the idea that people wouldn't understand the Chinese martial arts as well in Sin The's native translplant state of Kentucky. Who's to say he was wrong.  This trend, however, is changing. 

This brings up another problem that I've noticed. The art is only as good as its teachers and students. In Shaolin-Tao, I've seen a LOT of differences is some teachers and some students. Some teachers only focus on winning tournaments... some focus on sparring... some on making forms pretty.  Some teachers, however, are VERY good. They understand the applicability of every move in every form... and can apply it easily and with grace and skill. 

They teach a variety of students. Some of those students end up being fantastic martial artists. Graceful, powerful, quick, calm, and confident. Others end up more like me. I've managed to break bones, stab myself in the leg in tai chi, sprain ankles, twist joints, dislocate vertebrae, etc. I am hardly, however, to be taken as an example of the effectiveness, value, or overall worth of the art I study. I'm just a clumsy oaf.

I know Shaolin-Tao has a bad rap. I can understand why. Part of this is politics. Part of this is the undying urge for all martial arts students to think their master/teacher/art/style/method is the best. Part of this is the inconsistencies in what one teacher will say over another. 

I'm a firm believer that, given enough hard work (which is really kung fu at its finest), it's a wonderful martial art with some deep roots in traditional Shaolin styles. Modified, perhaps, over time in its transition from China to Indonesia, but that hardly makes any of the art worthless. 

Does Grandmaster The' know 900+ forms? I doubt it. Does he have notes on 900+ forms? Quite possibly. Has he been shown 900 forms? I suppose it's possible. I don't know. That number itself is, even by the higest ranking members of our art, held somewhat reverently suspect. We will give him the benefit of the doubt.  The forms he's been seen doing are good. He has messed up once or twice... but the man IS getting old... and can hardly do every form he knows every day, and likely has his favourite style and favourite forms as well. None of the senior students in our art have nearly that many, and perhaps they don't even exist. I know that the forms my master has he knows well and knows the applications of. That's all I can definitively say.

I recommend checking out the art for a WHILE. Like any Chinese martial art, it will take many years before you truly understand the effectiveness of some of the moves and the applications underlying them. 

We don't have contracts required at the schools in my state. You CAN do a contract if you want, but that just lowers the month-month cost. I'd steer clear of ANY martial arts instructor that required a long-term contract. A very famous Wing Chun instructor in this area scared me off with his "pay up front for 6 months no refunds and we'll see if we allow you to still be a student after 6 months" policy.  Does that make him a bad teacher? No. It just makes his policy suspect... and if you're uncomfortable with your training environment, be it the people, the payments, the teacher's attitude, or even the colour of the kwoon/dojo walls, then you're likely going to lose out on the art.


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## SRyuFighter (Apr 4, 2003)

Thanks for posting.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 7, 2003)

eneref:
  I hope I don't offend you, I'm just curious, would you explain the basis behind your system using belt rankings and such that would be more familiar with another system such as karate, or such?
I'm just curious, it has always sort of struck me as odd, thats all.

7sm


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## eneref (Apr 7, 2003)

Not an offense. 

The history we've been told is that the belt rankings were added in Indonesia because Chinese Martial Arts were outlawed there, and they had to make it appear Japanese (hence the gis and belts). 

I don't know if that's true or not... or if it's just been added as a method for Westerners to be able to identify with it and set goals for themselves. 

Either way, it's somewhat nebulous. All the colours are for the sort of probationary period... and once you advance beyond that, you are at levels of black belt, but you're all in the same class, often doing the same things, so it's less like a rank and more like an indicator of what material you should be focusing on and a way to easily identify those who can help you with your material and help you understand the concepts you may be struggling with.


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## Radhnoti (Apr 11, 2003)

First off, I was able to earn my black-belt a few weeks back.
:boing1:

7starmantis, I realize your question wasn't directed at me, but I thought I'd add something.  My understanding is that in Indonesia silat and (sometimes) kuntao will wear gis.  Wearing a gi was supposedly an attempt to blend in...as eneref, I've heard that traditional Chinese arts were outlawed in Indonesia for a time.

Also, my understanding is that dropping the belt rankings was discussed...and dismissed by GM Sin as something disrespectful to GM Ie and the struggles he went through to keep the style alive.  I hesitate to mention this...as eneref's instructor is sort of in the middle of this one.  But, dropping the gi's was discussed and discarded as not doing justice to GM Ie's memory as well.  My understanding is that the decision to wear "traditional" outfits was OKed with GM Sin, but he made it clear that he would consider it insulting.  Usually, this is all he needs to do to ensure that something doesn't happen.  The fact that they went ahead was quite shocking to the rank and file in Lexington/Texas/etc.  I hope that the stories I've heard of the hurt feelings and disappointment are overstated.   I (personally) don't see any problem with it.  Heck, I'd prefer to practice in a club t-shirt...and, in fact, I help run a review and workout class once a week where that's the norm.  Sifu is ok with it since it's not an "official" class, more like the group meeting without him there.

Not sure how to take ecw's opening statements...I'll assume he somehow skipped my previous post, both ecw and eneref seem to be quite knowledgeable and I've agreed with all they've said thus far.  How GREAT to hear from shaolin-do guys on this forum.  I'm looking forward to reading more from both practicioners in the days to come!


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## eneref (Apr 11, 2003)

It's funny that you bring up the disrespect of Ie Chang Ming. I've looked over the many illustrations we have of his images and the students in them, and none of them are actually wearing gi. They're all wearing button-down-the-front shirts.

Honestly, though, I doubt my instructor (who's a 6th degree) would have gone so far as to change everything so completely if he'd gotten any serious push-back from GM The'. There's a great deal of respect there...

Still, far be it from me to be privy to those conversations.


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## ecw1701 (Apr 11, 2003)

I must apologize Radhnoti; I read the first page and the top of the second before posting, so I did not see your posts.  I meant no disrespect.  
I don't understand the GI conflict either, but as Eneref pointed out, it must not be a huge one since my teacher doesn't use them either.  The vast majority of political issues in ANY system baffle me.  As far as I'm concerned, time spent arguing is time wasted.  I consider myself a traditionalist, in the sense that I feel there are certain traits and characteristics present in anything labeled 'Kung Fu' (or Karate, or Kali, etc).  But if those fundamentals are present, the room for interpretation is limitless.  This is the reason we have more than 1 martial arts style on the planet.  In keeping with this idea, I find it impossible to label Kung Fu 'better' than Karate, or anything else, but I do think you can speak in terms of effectiveness, practicality, etc. 
This disdain for politics and arguments is what keeps me out of forums.  Learn all you can, apply it as well as you can, and pass it on as accurately as you can; that is the best you can do.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 11, 2003)

I am glad to see some fellow Shaolin-Do folks around here.  I go to the San Antonio school, and train under Sifu Ryan Howard.  Where do you guys train?


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## Radhnoti (Apr 11, 2003)

zen_hydra, I'm in south east KY.

ecw1701, no problem at all.  I had hoped that might be the case.

I think it's great that you guys can duck away from the politics.  My class seems to run into it headlong pretty consistantly.  The only reason I know anything about the whole gi vs. traditional thing is my sifu asked once if wearing a traditional outfit (we had recently started teaching the "internal only" curriculum) would be alright in front of GM Sin.  Senior Master Leonard was QUITE firm in his denial...     Only allowing that students exclusively in the internal classes could do so.
Add to this the fact that GM Sin's brother Hiang teaches quite a bit in this area and perhaps there's a bit more political tension around these parts.
eneref, all the pics I've seen show the instructors at Grandmaster Ie's school wearing traditional outfits and all the students wearing a gi.
I have a few pictures of GM Sin as a boy wearing a gi, also one picture with GM Ie sitting has GM Sin's brother Hiang standing next to him wearing a gi.  Master Hiang (GM of his own system now) has a bird-like patch on his gi...and I believe that was his area of specialization.  The picture I have of GM Sin (breaking a huge woodblock) shows that he also has a patch on the upper left front of his gi, I can't tell what it is but wouldn't be surprised to hear it is a snake.   I wonder if that was the norm at GM Ie's school?  To wear a patch of the animal/area you decided to specialize your learning in?

I'd be more than willing to ignore the politics, if I could just get a bit more of the HISTORY.  Even if the whole Su Kong thing is bunk, I would guarantee GM Ie's story would be fascinating.


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## eneref (Apr 11, 2003)

They did away with the whole patch thing, too, here. Not sure why, but I think that was a marketing decision more than anything else. They didn't want to look like your typical Joe Corley Karate school where kids get patches for achievements and such. 

I'll bet the politics in that area is interesting with the Hiang The' and the Sin The' element going on all around. I've often found it interesting that Hiang ended up settling so close to the epicenter of his brother's influence. 

There had been talks of our next trip being to visit the Chung Yen instructors in Indonesia (although, we would be meeting them in Bali, since the anti-American element in Muslim Indonesia is pretty high), but with the war and SARS and some political things here and there, it seems unlikely that will be the case. 

Even so, I'm not sure if I'd get the full history through tranlation from GM The'. It's a shame, really. There's a good deal I'd like to learn about the origins of the art that poltics and language may get very much in the way of.


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## TranSendze (Apr 11, 2003)

I studied at Shaolin-Do for about 5 months.  The teachers where very friendly, and the class had a good atmosphere (although a bit crowded).

I stopped going because I doubted the legitimacy of the schools history, and therefore the schools art. I have since trained in 7 star praying mantis, and my concerns about Shaolin-Do have been confirmed. In comparison to what I am learning now Shaolin-Do taught none of the basics(footwork for example) and the physical conditioning is much more extremein comparison with Shaolin-Do. Not to be mean, but some of the black belts at my Shaolin-Do school were overweight and would tire while teaching a low level class. You cant learn or do kung fu without being in top shape. The fact that they were promoted to that level while in that physical condition says something about Shaolin-Do.

My sifu has detailed knowledge about every form he teaches us and understands the application of every step of the forms that we learn. Shaolin-Do has the habit of letting black belts teach the classes. Every time a black belt would show me a form it would be different. Even when I saw the schools Master show a form he would forget parts of it. What this says to me is that they dont really know what they are doing. Anyone can learn how to fight, I am not saying the Shaolin-Do guys cant fight, but I sure wouldnt say that they have a good system for learning kung fu.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Sorry to be a little mean, but I am upset that people who have such a desire and determination to learn kung fu are wasting their time at Shaolin-Do. I feel that the school is cheating them out of the kung fu experience and their money.


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## ecw1701 (Apr 11, 2003)

It would seem to me, the only statement that can be made is that you went to a poor Shaolin-Do school, and have found a better 7 Star Mantis teacher.  A more realistic statement is you didn't agree with the way the SD school was run, and the Mantis school is more appealing to you.  
I could every easily offer the same criticism to you, saying now that you've specialized in Mantis you will never know the high kicks of the China Hand system, evasive footwork of Pa Kua, or the deceptive body posturing and acrobatics of Drunken Style.  And that I'll be a 'better' martial artist because I *will* learn Praying Mantis Kung Fu (I happen to know my Master has intricate knowledge of 12 Mantis forms).  
But I would not make such statements. 
As I said before, there are good and bad schools, and whether or not to specialize is up to the individual.  I personally would never dream of only taking 7 Star Mantis, I would be driven crazy by thoughts of what I was missing.  Does this mean I don't respect Mantis practioners? Not at all.  I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who dilligently trains in their chosen art.
I will say this though: ANY school in ANY system will have a spectrum of physical capability.  There are people in my school who appear old out of shape but can bury me (a fit 25 year old) in any physical contest.  And there are those who I can 'out do' as well.  It is irrelevant.  The real reason these people may have been moved up in ranks despite their physical conditioning, is the instructor realized they were doing the absolute best they could possibly do, and giving it their all, which is the only thing any real instructor can ask from their students.


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## SRyuFighter (Apr 11, 2003)

Yea the SD school around here sucks. I know some guys that go there and man I hope they never get into a confrontation. Does that mean that the school is bad? No. But I went there and well yes it's bad. Does that mean that all SD schools are bad? No. As with any martial art there are good and bad instructors. My organization simply kicks the bad ones out. Hehe. Good luck all of you SD guys.


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## eneref (Apr 11, 2003)

5 months is an impressively short time to evaluate an entire style and its merits and faults.

Does this mean you might have learned more had you stayed? No. Not likely. 5 months appears to be the interest drop-off rate for all martial artists at a school... where they either decide they want to stay or decide they want to leave. Likely, had you stayed, even if the teaching had vastly improved, your interest would have been such that you wouldn't have noticed.

As a friend of mine is wont to say, "A fool will learn nothing from a wise man, but a wise man will learn much from a fool."


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## TranSendze (Apr 11, 2003)

 It would seem to me, the only statement that can be made is that you went to a poor Shaolin-Do school

-	I attended the North Austin Shaolin Do school. 


A more realistic statement is you didn't agree with the way the SD school was run

-	I was making comparisons between the two school in order to bring out Shaolin Dos faults. By run I assume you mean the way the system is taught and not the business aspect. Please let me know if I got this wrong. I only have my experience to go by, and my experience tells me that the Shaolin Do system is lacking.



you will never know the high kicks of the China Hand system, evasive footwork of Pa Kua, or the deceptive body posturing and acrobatics of Drunken Style. And that I'll be a 'better' martial artist because I *will* learn Praying Mantis Kung Fu

-	In this case I am going to assume that by better you mean your fighting abilities. I assert, and perhaps other can back this up or knock it down, that a person who spends his time mastering one style of kung fu will be a better fighter than someone who has dabbled in every style. Besides, unless you have no desire to master a style, how many styles do you think you can master in your lifetime?



[Physical fitness] is irrelevant. The real reason these people may have been moved up in ranks despite their physical conditioning, is the instructor realized they were doing the absolute best they could possibly do, and giving it their all, which is the only thing any real instructor can ask from their students.

- The reason that physical fitness is so important is because unless you are in top shape you are actually unable to do many of the kung fu forms. If you cant do the forms how are you supposed to be able to pass the test that all styels of kung fu give? If the test that Shaolin-Do give are so easy that people with any level of physical fitness can pass them then what kind of test is Shaolin-Do giving? Easy test to pass students to make them happy so they can keep getting that $$. Thats what kind.


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## pesilat (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TranSendze _
> *-	I was making comparisons between the two school in order to bring out Shaolin Dos faults. By run I assume you mean the way the system is taught and not the business aspect. Please let me know if I got this wrong. I only have my experience to go by, and my experience tells me that the Shaolin Do system is lacking.
> *



I think the point ecw1701 was making was that your experience is only with one school. The only thing it implies is that that specific school is lacking.

It means nothing about the art overall. The only way to judge whether the art is lacking overall would be to learn the entire art. In order to do that, you'd have to train with either the GM or with a lot of different SD instructors to get a feel for what the entire art has to offer as opposed to what a specific instructor has (or doesn't have) to offer.

Your experience is completely valid. And, based on your experience, it's completely valid for you to say, "I found this specific school/instructor to be lacking."

But to say that the art as a whole is lacking because of your experience with one school/instructor is like saying that all Porsche cars are lacking because you happened to have driven a lemon.

I don't know anything at all about the SD art so I'm not in a position to defend the art at all. I'm just making an objective observation on the past few posts in this thread 

Mike


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## eneref (Apr 11, 2003)

As for fitness, I agree that fitness plays a key role in your ability to perform some of the maneuvers. 

However, this being said, I'm also of the opinion that any real training doesn't begin until black belt... and that's the fitness time. That's the beginning of when you REALLY start to be forced into shape in order to learn the real material. 

In the 5 months you were there prior to that, you must have it it to what... green belt? There weren't even any real fitness exercises done before then. You didn't have any classes involving putting power into techniques... You likely only had rudimentary assistance on putting perfect root into your stances, as they were still teaching the stances (and it's your job to make them GOOD stances, not your intstructor's).

The fact that there might have been some out of shape people who made it to black belt in order to begin their real training says very little really. You were hardly around to see their level of fitness 2 years prior when they started, nor were you around to see if they improved massively within their first year.

In an art which is designed to take a minimum of 20 years to learn and a lifetime to master, your view of 5 months of it is hardly a telling tale that one can take seriously.

Now... you may be happier where you are now, and it may suit you better. This is fine... and the way it should be. However, this is hardly in any way reflective on the school you attended or the level of skill of those you saw. You barely even SAW them.  5 months is... simply... no time at all.

Just keep that in mind.


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## BIGtiny (Apr 11, 2003)

I personally got disgusted when our teacher required everyone to donate $5.00 each to buy the grand master a new car for his birthday or face more "frog leaps" at our next training session.  Regardless of the style its credibility or lineage etc, those tactics stink in any language.

-Bt :asian:


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## ecw1701 (Apr 11, 2003)

Clearly you have radically misinterpreted my statements, as your taking of my quotes out of context indicates. 
I maintain, all your experience indicates is that your school was lacking, or AT BEST the first 5 months of your schools curriculum are lacking.  If you choose to expand that to a broad generalization, so be it.  I would love to hear what is lacking about my school, training, and teachers, but you can't do that.  Why? Because you've never been there, met me, or my teachers. Hence you can only really say that your experience indicated otherwise.  I on the other hand, feel justified in my statement that the system IS effective, based on years of training, observing teachers with with decades of training, and my own research of the subject.  Of course, no matter what amount of substantiation I can provide, it is just my opinion as well.
If it makes you feel any better, I would make the same statements about 7 Star Mantis, based on what I've seen. 
Also, you must have overlooked the part where I said "I would never make such a statement" about being a better martial artist, and the several lines between that and the next thing you cut out.  I will say this though, something essentiall to understanding Shaolin-Do is the fact that it IS one system, merely a system with elements of other styles.  As you move up in the ranks, you see how intimately interwoven the material really is.  But I didn't see that within my first 5 months either.
And if taking elements from other styles is a negative, you may want to research the history of the development of 7 Star 
http://www.mantiskungfu.com/HistoryofPrayingMantisKungfu.htm
And finally, you misinterpreted the fact that I said whether or not I was in worse shape than the other people in the class is irrelevant.  Just within my school there are people who can perform every technique effortlessly, and those who can not perform a jumping inside outside smash kick to save their lives.  This does not make them bad martial artists.  If you are gifted to be able to perform every single 7 Star technique flawlessly, you should be VERY proud, and know that you are one of those lucky individuals who found the perfect art for them.  Stick with it.
Oh, and one last thing: North Austin Shaolin Do was apparently voted the 'best program' by Austin Fit magazine 3 years in a row, so someone must like what they're doing....http://www.swshaolin.com/


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## TranSendze (Apr 11, 2003)

eneref my interest in kung fu has not trailed off. I am still a student. How many months should someone stay at a school when its methods appear suspect?

I explained the problems that I had with Shaolin-Do and made comparisons between it and me new school. In what way does this post make me a fool? I did not evaluate the entire style of Shaolin-Do. I brought out specific points about Shaolin-Do with which I had a problem and gave my opinion that those problems are probably indicative of greater issues within the system.

If you do not agree with what I had to say then refute it, but do not attack me simple because you are upset with my position. Attack the position.

Pesilat, you are totally correct. Please view my previous comments from the position that I am only referring to my school and its instructors. However, I see nothing wrong with using heuristics to base my opinions on a system.


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## eneref (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BIGtiny _
> *I personally got disgusted when our teacher required everyone to donate $5.00 each to buy the grand master a new car for his birthday or face more "frog leaps" at our next training session.  Regardless of the style its credibility or lineage etc, those tactics stink in any language.
> 
> 
> ...


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## eneref (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TranSendze _
> *eneref my interest in kung fu has not trailed off. I am still a student. How many months should someone stay at a school when its methods appear suspect?
> 
> I explained the problems that I had with Shaolin-Do and made comparisons between it and me new school. In what way does this post make me a fool? I did not evaluate the entire styleEof Shaolin-Do. I brought out specific points about Shaolin-Do with which I had a problem and gave my opinion that those problems are probably indicative of greater issues within the system.
> ...






"and my experience tells me that the Shaolin Do system is lacking"

That shows you have issue with the art... and that you're making this evaluation based on 5 months at one particular school. You can change your story from one block to the next if you'd like, but I'm just going on what you SAID.

I never said you were a fool.  I merely said the wise man can learn from one. Don't take everything so personally. This is not a personal attack... 

I also didn't say anything about your interest in Martial Arts. I merely said that you were right to leave when you did, as your interest in THAT particular art... or the way it was taught at that particular school were obviously waning, and even if you'd stayed longer to see if it got better, the fact that your interest was waning would have coloured your judgement. 

I'm not entirely sure you're reading further than the first sentence of each paragraph here.... as you seem to be misconstruing a lot of things.


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## Radhnoti (Apr 11, 2003)

BigTiny, that's kind of crazy.  In KY we recently took up money to buy GM Sin a new car ,he was driving around in a tiny early 80's sub-compact and everyone was REALLY afraid that he'd break down somewhere.  But, no one was forced to contribute.  Maybe your instructor was feeling some pressure since GM Sin mentioned his KY transportation.  BTW, they got him another sensible car...not like a luxury or sports car.

Anyway, I'd probably consider leaving were I you.  My instructor has never forced a contribution to GM Sin, the only money of mine he's seen has come from a few test fees.


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## TranSendze (Apr 11, 2003)

Ecw1701. I didnt know Shaolin-DO was considered a complete system. Sorry, I didnt mean to offend you are any of the other Shaolin-Do practitioners, although I did know my comments would be inflammatory.


The Austin Fit magazine doesnt measure a school kung fu excellence, just their work out routine. I didnt think their daily work out routine was very rigorous. Their Sunday classes did kick my *** however.


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## ecw1701 (Apr 11, 2003)

No offense taken.
Forgive my tone in the previous posts, but I am defensive of my art, and love a good debate. 
I just feel that no one benefits from mud slinging, no matter how common it has become.  The point behind forums like this is so we can compare notes like civilized martial artists, which is exactly what is happening.  
Good luck with the 7 Star, you've chosen an excellent style.


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## BIGtiny (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Radhnoti _
> 
> Anyway, I'd probably consider leaving were I you.  [/B]




I did, I am currently training 7*M, and I am completely happy there, as well.  

I am of the opinion that , in Austin anyways, the SD school does not focus enough on the basics, and their testing processes are lacking.  In the time that I was there, I never once had any training in rooting, or structure, or power generation exercises etc.  I did, however, get a great workout, got in better shape and learned that I loved kung fu.  I certainly am not one who would discredit a style from 6 months of training, but I can compare my 6 months there with the 3 months that I have in at 7*M, and that is where my opinion is based from.  Additionally, I also am of the opinion that SD (again in Austin) is mostly about collecting their monthly fees, crushing people under the weight of long contracts and charging people exorbitant fees for everything that they can.  These types of tactics certainly sour people to the martial arts who might otherwise be completely happy with a newfound passion.    

ecw1701, I don't say this to offend you, however, I don't think that slinging mud in one post (even to make a point) and saying in another that mudslinging is wrong is a very effective way to defend your art, again just my opinion.  However, I would totally agree with you that comparing notes and a lively debate/ discussion makes us all better MA's.  Certainly no matter what style, art or whatever we are all dedicated to that which makes us happy.  Good luck in your training!
-Bt :asian:


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## zen_hydra (Apr 11, 2003)

A good point to remember about all of the martial arts is, you only get out of them what you put into them.  It is unfortunate that there are some instructors out there that poorly represent the Shaolin-Do system as a whole.  Shaolin-Do is pretty wide spread across the US though, so it really is not too surprising that there are some bad apples out there.  I attend the Shaolin-Do school in San Antonio, and though the fund-raiser for Grandmaster Sin's new car was mentioned it certainly wasn't mandatory (or even pressured), as a matter of fact, I didn't have any extra cash that I could contribute.  I have had dealings with some of the folks at the North Austin school (the occasional seminar and tournament), and by-and-large they all seem like the kind of people that would never do that sort of thing.  So it is all the more appalling to me that someone did this to TranSendze.  I have met some students that conduct their training in a half-*** manner, and some like Sifu Lorenz (of the South Austin school) that take it too the other extreme (on his own he reputedly did one-legged frog jumps until he wore out most of the cartilage in his knees).


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## TranSendze (Apr 11, 2003)

I think I should make it clear that the frog jumping thing seemed to me to be a joke by the Sifu. Don't think Bt meant you take that seriously. However I did get like three emails from him begging for money - and then more emails saying that he paid his share for the school and now needs to recoup it from us .. whatever.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 11, 2003)

BIGtiny,

Did the North Austin School not offer you a month-to-month plan?  I know in San Antonio that you have a choice of payment plans.  In San Antonio, the contractual plan is slightly discounted from the month to month plan, after looking around here at martial art schools, I actually pay less at Shaolin-Do than I would at most of the schools in the area (this of course doesn't include extra material such as seminars, but those are always optional).


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## BIGtiny (Apr 11, 2003)

Trans and I joined at the same time, and neither of us were offered a month to month plan.  Subsequently, none of the 4 friends of ours who came in after us were offered any month to month plan either.  I did get the first month for free with the option to quit before that month was up.  However, honestly everyone is still pumped up about going to class after only a month, so it certainly wasn't *really* enough time to come to an informed decision about the school and style.  Also, another  friend only had to sign up for 6months instead of a year, but that was something that she worked out with the teacher individually, and was certainly not the norm.  

Yes, the frog leaps thing was probably a joke, but I didn't find it funny, particularly after the messages from the newsletter that Trans described.
-Bt:asian:


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## zen_hydra (Apr 11, 2003)

I really am sorry that was the extent of your experience with Shaolin-Do.  Please don't judge us all (at Shaolin-Do) by the poor behavior you have experienced with that school (and I am not assuming that you are).  I am a very tradition (i.e. respect) minded person, and I hope to one day assume the level of proficiency needed to establish my own school.  I believe in teaching others for the sake of the love of knowledge.  While I hope that I can make a reasonable living at it, my goal is to always be fair to my students, and to give them the very best martial education that I can for their money, but most importantly for the time and effort that they invest.  While I have had nothing but positive experiences with Shaolin-Do, my ultimate loyalty belongs to the pursuit of knowledge and self-perfection, and if at some point my path and Shaolin-Do's diverge, that is just the way of things.  I hope that you find everything that you seek in the paths that you choose.


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## BIGtiny (Apr 11, 2003)

Oh, I am by no means bitter about SD.  In fact, I am thankful for SD for one reason, I found out through them that I love KF.  I respect your thoughts, as I have much the same goal in mind for myself.  I would like to retire to some mountain cottage teach KF for fun, and make enough to keep the kwoon afloat  .  I am working on my second career, thats how i see it.  It just so happened that my path and that of SD diverged at a early time in my KF journey.  I certainly couldnt have made it to my current situation with out the help of SD, and that is definately not a bad thing.  The advice I would try to give to someone new into KF, is do your homework, check out several different schools in the area, talk to the sifus, talk to the students, make sure what your paying for is what you are looking for out of your training.  Oh yea, and TRAIN HARD!!!!  thats number 1 
-Bt:asian:


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## TranSendze (Apr 14, 2003)

I am still interested in discussing Shaolin-Do further. I went to school there, have friends there, and they still get my money =)

Also, from the previous post you can see that my kung fu experience is limited (only a year invested). I am hear to gain info on Shaolin-Do, not flame it. If any previous post seemed to be from that perspective none others will be.

Ok so on with the questions for you SHaolin-Do guys.
-------
Shaolin-Do does not have tournaments with other non-Shaolin-Do schools. Why is this? 

Have any of you ever gone to tournaments anyway, and what strengths and weaknesses did you notice about Shaolin-Do after fighting a different style?


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## eneref (Apr 15, 2003)

What's odd is that some Shaolin-Tao schools don't do tournaments at ALL. 

There seems to be a different emphasis on that sort of thing depending upon the school. I've heard it described as the Eastern style and Western style Shaolin-Tao. The Eastern folx tend to gear a lot of their effort toward competition in the yearly tournaments, whereas we, in the Western style schools, never even HEAR of the tournaments. 

There have been some people in my school who've been anyway, but in general, it's not talked about. We stress our training toward combat more than show, so the idea of *gasp* competing for show is one of those unspeakable things.

I've no idea how many would do at competitions. I guess that depends on the rules (much the way it is with all martial arts competitions, really). If we're not allowed strikes to the head or some such, who knows.  I'm not sure what the rules in the Shaolin-Tao annual tournament are like.  

Do you know anyone who's been? Would love to hear what they have to say.


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## SRyuFighter (Apr 15, 2003)

Why do you call your school Shaolin Tao...instead of Shaolin Do? Is it just a different way of spelling? Thanks.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 15, 2003)

As it was explained to me, the tournaments where started to expose students to a larger slice of the Shaolin-Do community, and to allow them to compete against each other in a friendly manner.  

I think the atmosphere of the tournaments would be different if they where completely open.  I would imagine that if you where going to have a completely open tournament you would need to invest a good deal of money on training judges, coming up with a set of clear, concise rules that are fair to practioners of any school of martial arts, more liability insurance, larger space for the competition, etc....  I think that there would also be a less friendly atmosphere as people felt  the need to represent for their school (as opposed to just competing to test your own abilities).  

That said, while I enjoy the friendly atmosphere and competition, I do have plans of pitting my skills against other schools in various open tournaments, and "tough man" competitions when I get the opportunity (and money).


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## BIGtiny (Apr 15, 2003)

What about AAU?  I am pretty sure that they have a CMA division, and that many schools in and around Texas compete there.  From what I can tell they are well organized and have all the things needed to run top notch tourneys...

-Bt:asian:


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## eneref (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *Why do you call your school Shaolin Tao...instead of Shaolin Do? Is it just a different way of spelling? Thanks. *




Yeah... we spell it that way at the school.  Chinese spelling/pronunciation as opposed to the Japanese. Same kanji/character  ('street'... or 'way').


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## zen_hydra (Apr 15, 2003)

AAU?  I am not familiar with this.  What is it?


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## BIGtiny (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by zen_hydra _
> *AAU?  I am not familiar with this.  What is it? *



Amatuer Athletic Union, they have annual tourneys, for all types of amatuer sports, throughout the country.  They also have a CMA division as well.


http://www.aausports.org/index.cfm?publicationID=31

-Bt:asian:


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