# A change for me



## Bujingodai (Mar 29, 2005)

Well after years of beating my head into the ground trying to legtiamize things or whatever, my teacher and I have parted ways. I relinquished my rank and title. Something I have had problems with for a while. I have tried my best to obtain the training and provide the best for who trained with me. In the end, in my own group politics remained supreme sadley. 
However people have taken me opinion wise I have tried to remain un boastful, nonclaiming etc etc. As of right now, I am taking a break and seeing where things end up. Too bad that in the end the effort didn't reap the results desired.
I will still be attending the summit, not as a teacher just as an active participant. My teacher has also backed out of the summit.
As of now I am no longer a member of the Bujingodai Dojo. Any active share I had in it I have given back and it is up to those who were below me to continue if they wish. I can no longer keep myself in this track.
I still believe in all those whom I have trained with. This is not to discredit any of them in anyway.
I think I'd like to work on my own skill personally, something I have had in question for a long long time.

OK well, thats all I had to say.


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## Feisty Mouse (Mar 29, 2005)

Hi Dave

I'm sorry that things have not worked out in your training/studies.  It sounds like you are trying to do the best thing, and move on, hopefully into an environment that's better for you.  Good luck, I hope you continue to pursue your training in a beneficial way.


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## saru1968 (Mar 29, 2005)

Hi Dave



I did the same thing last year and it was scary for about six months but it will sort itself out. good luck



Gary


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## arnisador (Mar 29, 2005)

Good luck going your own way! It's too bad but it's an opportunity of sorts, I suppose.


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2005)

Sometimes it is good to not have all the responsibility and be free to make mistakes and learn from them. Now is the time you should be looking at your life, making choices and then trying to reach goals you know you can't make. When you fall, dust yourself off and figure out how you slipped up and then rectify the situation for the next climb. When you have students following you, you can't stray too much for fear of harming them with your speculation- that is IF you are an honorable man like yourself.

I suspect that you will feel rather let down for a while. But them maybe you will start to feel a sense of freedom as you are no longer responsible for the directions of others and do not have to fill their image of what a sensei should be. You ever wonder why I have never tried to open up a dojo?

Whatever you do, don't think that your past was a mistake. _If you realize_ that there were mistakes and you learn from them, then all the times you fell on your face will become lessons. If you have had bad experiences, then you can appreciate good experiences when they come along. Someday I will have to rant to you about the teacher I had back in America. I spent a few years under him that I could have spent better. But because I have went through that, and realize it was not good, I can appreciate the stuff I see here in Japan. :cheers:


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## Bujingodai (Mar 30, 2005)

Yep,
Let down is a word for it.
My group has already regrouped somewhere else. That is a little suprising but hey good for them.
Think I will take some time for a while to think about some hobbies. In 16 months I am leaving the area I am in, a fresh start somewhere else.
Too much fun for one person.


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Think I will take some time for a while to think about some hobbies. In 16 months I am leaving the area I am in, a fresh start somewhere else.
> Too much fun for one person.



Or a chance to be totally free without anyone looking to you for guidence. You can foul up and learn from your mistakes. You can change direction and never have to worry about what your students will think. You do not have to fill anyone's expectations or act as they want you.

Do you realize just how much freedom you have now? Do you know just how much potential has been given you due to your brave decision to chuck everything you have gained up to now? DO NOT throw this chance away. Try harder than you have ever had before and fall flat on your face numerous times. Just relalize how you got those brusies and you should be fine.

C'mon Dave, this is your chance to excell and grow. Don't throw it away by thinking about all that you used to have. It was not worth it. You have your entire life ahead of you. If you look in the past, you won't get crap.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 30, 2005)

Oh No. I agree Don. A great chance. I have a newly renovated dojo 10 feet from my house with no less than $15,000 worth of equipment, mats etc I am sure I can practice alot on my own. Or get a buddy to work with. Sort of what it was years ago.
I guess I am let down just due to the fact that it is already taken care of. I built this school, the org side of it from the ground. In one day it has been re evolved. I invested over a decade of training, most of which in this, most of life savings and 100% of my time and it seems so trivial. puff it's gone.
These are expected emotions, no suprises.


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## KyleShort (Mar 30, 2005)

Wow what happened?  How does a dojo up and dissapear in a day?


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## Bujingodai (Mar 31, 2005)

I wonder the same


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## Don Roley (Oct 15, 2005)

Dave,
When you first posted this thread, I thought you had reached a point where you could grow and learn from your past mistakes.

It is sad to see I was wrong.

For years I have been on the other side of debates with you when you say that people known to be frauds 'knew what they were talking about.' You presented things as if because you trained with them and found them good that they _must_ be legit. If you say they know what they are talking about in terms of ninjutsu, it means you know _enough about the subject matter_ to render an *expert* opinion.

After all, if you said that someone speaks good Japanese it means that you know enough Japanese yourself to make the judgement.

So, after it looked like the teacher you followed tossed you out for merely questioning his claims, I thought you would realize that maybe your judgement was not all you thought it was. I thought you would realize that you could be fooled and that you had to be carefull about saying that some people knew about ninjutsu or not.

After all, you have not been a black belt all that long.

Sad to say, it has come to my attention that you have not changed. You still come forward with comments about people as if you can judge their legitimacy merely on your experience and how you feel about the training.

I think it shows a certain arrogence to say that just because *you* thought the training was good, that they must be good.

I feel very sad that I spent so much time trying to bolster the spirits of someone who really does not want to change his way.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 16, 2005)

OK, I am not about to justify to you my opinions. I have no need to.
Because I happen to have opinions still of a few indies and have not turned on them does not make me arrogant.
I chose for myself tp cpme back to the Kan, I think it was a wise choice. It is good to be learning, Now you have found a new point to prosecute me with. For crying out loud Don, I admitted mistakes etc etc.
I am afraid I can see even though I admitted wrong and changed my path, that I am still doing wrong.
I have always been respectful abput your knowledge, even stated in another post on you poving me wrong all these years. I PM'd you when I rejoined the Kan, and you still manage to bust my hump. I don't have anything to prove or say to you Don. I don't have to justify myself to you anymore. 
I would myself say that you havr a bit of an arrogant streak to you.
I'm sorry that you are not pleased with me and decided to come back out against me.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 16, 2005)

To continue with my thoughts. Funny that you spat on trolls, which is fine. However,as  Judan your thoughts are so unopenminded, You dredge up this old post to slag me for having a positive opinion about some people.
As for me being arrogant. I sought a teacher becasue I needed growth and traininig, thats arrogant?
OI don't have the education nor the care to argue history. I only went by what I saw, the effectiveness that was in my opinion was based on how it felt and looked. I also judged people by the way their orgs looked and co related with each other.
So thats what I based it on. Not being an expert in anyting inparticular.

My opinions have not changed, my line of training has. 
I have friends in the indie communiity that are amazing martial artists, that I wil not turn my back on because I am now  Bujinkan member. To me loyalty is a little more important than politics.
If the Bujinkan sends me something that says who my friends can be and that I can not be a good practitioner due to whom I speak to then I would leave again. Don't be so bold or obtuse.
I am happy that you are being advised of the people that I defend and my beliefs, Big brother is watching.
If any of you dispute my opinions of my comrades ability, any of them. Go see them and judge for yourself. Don't take my uneducated opinion about it.

Don, I have never seen you in action. Maybe you are not all that great either.
Rank in the Bujinkan doesn't guarentee anything does it. My opinion on that stands I am afraid.
But I have always respected you for your knowledge, uncanny debating ability etc etc. And I know that you have been training well and for a long time.

But in the end I have to please me. I have chosen the correct path again I believe. We are playing for the same team now. But if you chose to still berate me for not being one sided on the topic, then so sorry for you that you need to do that.

I will continue to defend those whom I believe in.
As a matter of fact I am flying to see Falcaro Sensei for a celebration in a few weeks. I wouldn't have it any other way. It doesn't change what I am learning, many of these people are my friends.
Take it or leave it.


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## Don Roley (Oct 16, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> You dredge up this old post to slag me for having a positive opinion about some people.



Not because you have a positive view of some people. But because you, despite your lack of experience in the Bujikan and training in Japan, have been stating that certain fraud groups and people know about ninjutsu. Who are you to say whether they know or not unless you also know the subject matter?

If you said you enjoyed working with them, that is one thing. But in order to say that someone has knowledge of something, you have to be in a position to know the subject matter. And that is arrogence. I am arrogent when I talk about Japanese history. But I know it, better than any of the frauds you have hung out with.

I thought you had learned that you do not know who knows ninjutsu or not and could not state that they were legit based soley on your impression. But you don't want to learn from your mistakes and your core personality is intact.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 16, 2005)

You are very right that my core personality is intact. Glad for that.
I am not a sheep that will not share an opinion. 
OK tell you what I enjoyed training with these people. For what I  can see it looks pretty good. Neither of the indies I really train with being Jackson Wagner or David Falcaro tout Ninjutsu. Do they know what they are doing, it looks like it to me. However that is my opinion. For what little I do know.

My mistakes were my own, and I learned from them. But it is not up for you to judge how far or what I have learned.
And I am well aware you can be arrogant about history. As you should be. On the other hand personality is not something you should be arrogant about.
But then you hardly represent the majority of the Kan anyway. At least I don't think so. If the majority of the Bujinkan would be so beligerant than I would have likely made the wrong choice to return.
Gladly though Pierre Benoit is an awsome guy and I am happy to be training under him. 

So anyway I am off to the states tonite, so flame away I won't be able to see it for a few days


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## Cryozombie (Oct 16, 2005)

Enough.

 If you two wanna continue this, please take it to PM.


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## Kizaru (Oct 16, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> For what I can see it looks pretty good. Neither of the indies I really train with being Jackson Wagner or David Falcaro tout Ninjutsu.


David Falcaro doesn't tout Ninjutsu??? I took the following directly from his webpage ( http://www.bumon.com/aboutme.html )

"In *2002* I met Jamie Ellerbe Sensei of Mikeba Ryu Ninjutsu. Mikeba Ryu Ninjutsu was founded in 1671 by Yamada Toro Mikeba. It was created from Gyokushin Ryu Koppojutsu, Nagano Ryu Jujutsu, Ugai Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and Akutagawa Ryu Jutaijutsu. .... It houses schools of Jujutsu, Aikijutsu, Ninjutsu, Koppojutsu, and has its own Bukijutsu designed by Nato Noguchi (Mikeba Ryu 3rd Soke). The Mikeba Family Tradition is a very rich tradition founded by Yamada Taro Mikeba in 1671. At the age of 24, Soke Ellerbe received the level of Menkyo Kaiden in Mikeba Ryu and was then appointed heir to the Mikeba Family Tradition....Ellerbe Sensei has showed me, through our bond of friendship and brotherhood, what I was always looking for from Ninjutsu. "

Not to mention the Chinese characters on the page (which he probably can't even read) say, "&#20116;&#22823;&#24515;&#12288;&#36947;&#22580;&#12288;&#24525;&#27861;&#12288;&#27494;&#34899;" (Godaishin Dojo Ninpo Bujutsu)



The following quotes I also took directly from David Falcaro's webpage. For what I can see, it looks alot like a cult to me...

"Deshi (Literal translation devotee) Someone has developed a life devotion to the art as well as one to the Ryu, Sensei, and Dojo. 

Sempai (Literal translation senior student leader) ...the Sempai has the Kopai and Kohai at his disposal to dispatch for any task as he deems fit. ...His job is to report all wrongful dealings and miss-happenings done by the Kyu. ..His Giri is to the Kyu as a disciplinarian. ..He maintains order through verbal discussions and physical action.... "


Take it for what you will.


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## arnisador (Oct 17, 2005)

This is the first I've heard of Mikeba Ryu Ninjutsu. It's still extant, then?


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## Kizaru (Oct 17, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> This is the first I've heard of Mikeba Ryu Ninjutsu. It's still extant, then?


As far as the traditions go that are listed in there, 

(Mikeba Ryu Ninjutsu was founded in 1671 by Yamada Toro Mikeba. It was created from Gyokushin Ryu Koppojutsu, Nagano Ryu Jujutsu, Ugai Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and Akutagawa Ryu Jutaijutsu.)

The only traditions that I believe are factual are Gyokushin ryu and Daito ryu. They claim "Mikeba" ryu was founded in 1671 including principles from Daito ryu; as far as I know, I don't think Daito ryu was even around in 1671!!!

When I watch the video clips on their website, it looks like they're doing some Daito ryu techniques and some techniques practiced in the Bujinkan. Being someone who trains in the Bujinkan here in Japan, and being someone who has trained with friends who've got menkyo kaiden in Daito ryu; I can't say I'm all that impressed by what's being displayed...I suppose I'm just jaded...

Gassho.


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## Don Roley (Oct 17, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> This is the first I've heard of Mikeba Ryu Ninjutsu. It's still extant, then?



It never existed as far as Japanese sources are concerned. It is one of many martial arts that make claims that should be very easy to prove, but can't. Stick it in the same catagory with Yo Sato, David D'Antonio, Jackson Wagner and many other people in that respect.

Personally, I would never train with a known liar and fraud. But then again, I am not really interested in building up my resume and saying later on that I trained with many ninjutsu styles. I only want to get the best training I can, from people I think I can trust. If they show signs they can't be trusted, I don't presume to think that I know all there is to know and be able to tell which was tested on the street and what was just made up to look good.

Not all people think the same way it seems.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 20, 2005)

About Falcaro Sensei, well yes he has a relationship with the Mikeba. I have never met nor trained with them. Dave has more tuning with Aikijutsu than anything else. No he is not Bujinkan trained at all. Far from it. However like I said come traini with him and see for yourself prior to a complete judgement.

I also would not put Jackson in the same grouping as those others. Not at all.

I don't care to argue all that much about it. I am not looking to build a resume, I just liked to train with different people. I rejoined the Kan to continue it with a good path. However I guess I will always be substandard to you Don, not to concerned with that.
I won't insult you, so please have enough respect to agree to disagree. I think we both understand the positions we are taking here. But I don't think we will solve anything here.


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## arnisador (Oct 20, 2005)

It sounds like there are conflicting opinions about Mikeba-ryu then? I haven't heard of Soke Ellerbe. I thought Don Angier was the only true American Soke, but my information may be out-of-date.


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## Don Roley (Oct 20, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I also would not put Jackson in the same grouping as those others. Not at all.



And of course, you would not have put your old teacher in with the frauds until the day he tossed you out for asking questions about his past training. Jackson sent out a certificate he claimed he got from his teacher. It was bad. Among other things, it claimed to have been issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association." And from what I see in terms of pictures and such, Jackson might be able to impress low level types, but he has some big holes in his technique that can easily be taken advantage of.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> It sounds like there are conflicting opinions about Mikeba-ryu then?



Not really opinion. You go to any soke in Japan and they will be willing and able to prove they had a teacher who made them a soke. They also can show proof that _someone_ in Japan knows about them. Mikeba ryu is not listed in any Japanese source, nor can Ellerbie seem to prove that he had a real teacher.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 20, 2005)

OK Don.


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## Shogun (Oct 22, 2005)

> as far as I know, I don't think Daito ryu was even around in 1671!!!


From what I know, it was, but was not called Daito ryu until later (1800's) I think The name Daito comes from the arts founder, Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yoshimitsu, who was the head of the Daito mansion. The art synthesized around 1120, but wasn't an "official" style until much later. Not to mention, the art was a family lineage secret, that wasn't taught until the Takeda household took over it. so thats pretty much true.


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## Don Roley (Oct 23, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> From what I know, it was, but was not called Daito ryu until later (1800's) I think The name Daito comes from the arts founder, Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yoshimitsu, who was the head of the Daito mansion. The art synthesized around 1120, but wasn't an "official" style until much later. Not to mention, the art was a family lineage secret, that wasn't taught until the Takeda household took over it. so thats pretty much true.



Sources?

I think the point Kizaru was trying to make is that the Mikeba stuff looks a lot like a teacher who took some videos of the Daito ryu and some stuff from Bujinkan videos and were able to fool those that did not know better that they were a Japanese style.

I am sure that they can fool a lot of low level martial artists, but not those that know what they are talking about. But there is no shortage of inexperienced fools ready to believe that Mikeba ryu, Sato ryu, Ashida Kim are worthy of being treated as ninjutsu styles.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 23, 2005)

You have seen vids of the Mikeba?
I have a pretty lengthy portion from a gathering some years ago. Looks nothing like Bujinkan at all to me. It does look more Aikijutsu.

And you are right in the no shortage of fools Don.


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## Kizaru (Oct 24, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sources?
> 
> I think the point Kizaru was trying to make is that the Mikeba stuff looks a lot like a teacher who took some videos of the Daito ryu and some stuff from Bujinkan videos and were able to fool those that did not know better that they were a Japanese style.


</p>Here's a website that explains the history of Daito ryu in English and Japanese:http://www.muden.jp/According to that, "In 1898, Sokaku Takeda received permission to teach the art openly from the chief steward of the clan, Tanomo Saigo (1830 - 1905) with the words: "the time of the sword is over.""According to my friends here in Japan who practice Daito ryu, this is when Daito ryu became Daito ryu. This is because during his musha shugyo, Takeda Sokaku added quite a bit to what he previously learned, giving birth to Daito ryu.In the Mikeba ryu "history", it's stated that Mikeba ryu was founded in the 1600's and borrowed from Daito ryu. If Daito ryu wasn't in existance then how did they borrow from it? Looking at the video clips available on David Falcaro's page, it clearly looks like he's showcasing some Daito ryu techniques...so basicly it just looks like a really shoddy scam job to me.Gassho.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 24, 2005)

And Falcaro is scamming how? His art is Daito, he was not traned by Mikeba for that.


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## Don Roley (Oct 24, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> And Falcaro is scamming how? His art is Daito, he was not traned by Mikeba for that.



Kizaru posted the following *official biography of Falcaro* in a recent post.

http://www.bumon.com/aboutme.html

Where does it say that he has learned or teaches Daito ryu?

The closest I can find is a comment about Mikeba ryu that claims to be born out of Daito ryu- which as Kizaru points out did not even use that name until _centuries_ after the Mikeba ryu claims to have learned it and lost contact with it. Another is a comment about Hokushin Ryu Aikibujutsu, which supposably was created by someone who learned Daito ryu but does not mention teaching Daito ryu. I do not think this guy ever existed and is a fiction by Falcaro. In any case, where is the comment about him learning Daito ryu? Hatusmi learned boxing- I can't say that I learned boxing even though I trained with him because he does not teach it and there is no mention on Falcaro learning Daito ryu from a teacher.

Again, if Falcaro is teaching Daito ryu, where is the information on him learning that art on the page he wrote about his own training?


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## Cryozombie (Oct 24, 2005)

-Mod Note-

Fraud busting is not allowed in this forum. If you wish to discuss this at length I suggest you move it to the Great Debate Forum.

-Technopunk
-MT Super Mod


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## Bujingodai (Oct 24, 2005)

Techno, I have no care to carry this on any further.


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