# Wrestling vs Brazilian Jiu Jitsu



## muayThaiPerson (Apr 4, 2003)

Im interested in the pros and cons of each. I want to start one but dont know which. Thanks


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## J-kid (Apr 6, 2003)

easy 

Both


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## Elfan (Apr 6, 2003)

You mean like American College wrestling type wrestling?


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## arnisador (Apr 6, 2003)

What I've heard from my BJJ instructor is that the wrestlers probably have better takedowns but that the BJJ folks rule the ground. It's helpful to have some of both, in other words.


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## muayThaiPerson (Apr 6, 2003)

Its good to have both but unfortunatley I dont have money for both. When you say wrestling takedowns, do you mean sacrifice takedowns where you fall too?


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## Elfan (Apr 6, 2003)

Well it depends on what you are interested in focusing in.  As arnisador said BBJ is probably best on the ground but wresling best getting there.


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## arnisador (Apr 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *When you say wrestling takedowns, do you mean sacrifice takedowns where you fall too? *



Well, they don't think of it that way exactly--you go down with them so as to be able to pin them.


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## lvwhitebir (Apr 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *Im interested in the pros and cons of each. I want to start one but dont know which. Thanks *



From what I've seen, wrestlers have the same type of ground control that BJJ has, but don't have the finishing moves.  Their goal is to get the shoulders on the mat, not on choking or joint locks, or in preventing them.  They can also develop bad habits that hurt in a street fight (e.g., lying on their stomach).

Wrestlers can develop BJJ skills very rapidly, however.

WhiteBirch


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## JDenz (Apr 7, 2003)

If you arn't learning wrestling in highschool I would say go to BJJ.  It is to late for you to start wrestling really.  Everyone you practice with is going to have 15 years on you at least.  If you are a Mt guy I would say go learn BJJ.  If you can find a no gi place that would be your best bet.  They will be able to teach you sprawling and takedowns well enough to take down most people.


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## A.R.K. (Apr 19, 2003)

What kind of wrestling are you talking about?  High school/collegiate is one way but I would recommend catch-as-catch-can submission wrestling.  In my humble opinion it is superior to BJJ.  Karl Gotch trained Matt Fury who in turn trained one of the Deputies on my shift.  We cross train each other.  Catch is brutal!

For example, they will not even teach you techique one until you can do 500 Hindu Squats, 250 Hindu push-ups and hold a back bridge with hands folded over your chest/nose to mat for 3 minutes.  Then and only then are you ready to train.  

Throw in my favorites...the handstand push-up and dynamic tension exercises like the tiger-claw, curl, whisking arm and palm press and you've got a well round butt kicking workout.  

Bottom line, I recommend catch wrestling if available if not then settle for BJJ.  

Good luck.

:asian:


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## Bod (Apr 22, 2003)

There's always Judo of course. Or Sambo.

For a Muay Thai guy I'd choose wrestling, even though BJJ is closer to Judo. It seems ridiculous to go from punching to a drag down followed by groundwork unless you are into MMA fights.

Wrestlers have a healthy dislike of being thrown which should aid your stand up work.

In the end though it will probably be down to the classes in your area, and what the people are like there, and the quality of instruction. Whatever you do, don't hang around thinking too long, try them all out and stick with the one you prefer for now.


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## JDenz (Apr 22, 2003)

Good advice BOD


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## James Kovacich (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *What kind of wrestling are you talking about?  High school/collegiate is one way but I would recommend catch-as-catch-can submission wrestling.  In my humble opinion it is superior to BJJ.  Karl Gotch trained Matt Fury who in turn trained one of the Deputies on my shift.  We cross train each other.  Catch is brutal!
> 
> For example, they will not even teach you techique one until you can do 500 Hindu Squats, 250 Hindu push-ups and hold a back bridge with hands folded over your chest/nose to mat for 3 minutes.  Then and only then are you ready to train.
> ...



I "HEAR" a lot of what you say, but this one I really don't understand.

"500 Hindu Squats, 250 Hindu push-ups and hold a back bridge with hands folded over your chest/nose to mat for 3 minutes.  Then and only then are you ready to train."

Expectations like those are outrageously high and will take the new student far to long to meet. They should expect to "maybe" learning some actual technique after 6 months. Thats 6 months to long.   

Conditioning and technique go hand in hand, one compliments the other. The students is expecting to learn martial arts first and foremost. Matt Furey is big on conditioning so his expectations may be high and he has a diverse wrestling background, not just catch. I have his takedown tape and for someone like me it is great.

But I don't think there are many students who are going to pay conditioning first and technique later. There needs to be a medium where both can be taught together. 

I know a lot of people today also say that they will go to a school that dosen't do the exercises because the classtime is only 1 hour. The answe I would think then should be a 1.5 hour class so that they can have the hor of technique with a proper warmup.

I know I rambled a bit but I guess thats me.:asian:


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## A.R.K. (Apr 25, 2003)

Akja,

I understand your point, and realize I am only the messenger.  Their concept is that you will not be able to utilize the training until you've reached a certain level of fitness.  How strictly they adhere to this nowadays I can't say.

The way I prefer to train differs somewhat.  I typically incorporate the following into any given workout session after a warm up period [stretching and dynamic tension static line drills];

Handstand push ups 
Hindu Squats 
Hindu push ups 
Calf raising
Crunches 
Finger tip push ups
Wide squats
Knuckle push ups
Thigh lunge
Staff curling
Windlass

Then regular dynamic tension exercises such as tiger claw, dry land swimming, palm prayer press etc.  Motion line drills work on the aerobic conditioning.  

I will occasionally throw in different exercises for interest and to 'shake' the body up.  The amount expected depends on the beginning condition of a student as well as his/her level.  Disabilities are of course an exception.  As the student progresses so does the amount of effort expected.

I expect any of my Dan level students to be able to perform all of the above in the amounts listed such as 500 Hindu squats/250 Hindu push ups etc as a *minimum!* 

This is in addition to the normal arm/leg pounding & rubbing exercises, body conditioning drills, dynamic tension stance etc.

:asian:


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## moromoro (Apr 26, 2003)

id say if you want subbmission go for BJJ but there are also some froms of wrestling that has submission as well its a tough choice if your choosing but i trained in an art based in japan called submission arts wrestling try looking it up on a search engine


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## James Kovacich (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Akja,
> 
> I understand your point, and realize I am only the messenger.  Their concept is that you will not be able to utilize the training until you've reached a certain level of fitness.  How strictly they adhere to this nowadays I can't say.
> ...



I'm coming around to more conditioning in training too. If you don't keep it up, you end up at a high rank and can't do a minimul amount of situps, pushups and etc...

Your land swimming is probably something similar to what we did on our stomachs in BJJ and on our backs it was called a snake move, as you snake out you end up on one shoulder alternating shoulders.

I think if you stay consistant and increase your (exercise) numbers to where as your rank goes up your capability of doing higher numbers in your exercises should go up. Rank has nothing to do with it except as a measurement tool for the students to be able to guage themselves. Thats the way I was taught and it did work, but if you slacked off, you would find yourself in trouble on a challenge night where all you do is high numbered excercises like a couple thousand of one.:asian:


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## A.R.K. (Apr 26, 2003)

Akja,

It's a shame we live on opposite coasts, I would love to train with you.  I think we are on the same sheet of music much of the time with similar goals.

Who knows...maybe one day :asian:


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## James Kovacich (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Akja,
> 
> It's a shame we live on opposite coasts, I would love to train with you.  I think we are on the same sheet of music much of the time with similar goals.
> ...



Definately, I think we will. What I'm building upon is going to allow me to travel and train with my instructors and my students too.


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## A.R.K. (Apr 26, 2003)

Let me know if and when your in the Tampa area.  We'll hook up.  

:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Let me know if and when your in the Tampa area.  We'll hook up.
> 
> :asian: *



 My daughter lives on the East Coast so I do have reason to head out that way. But I have never been out there, she always comes here. But I will and we will hook up!  :asian:


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## A.R.K. (Apr 29, 2003)

Sounds good  

Just give us a shout.

:asian:


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## lost_tortoise (Apr 29, 2003)

What about Shooto?  Scientific groundwork and good stand-up stuff too.  Eric Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling is TOP-NOTCH!

geoffrey


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## JDenz (Apr 30, 2003)

Ya Paulson has alot of great stuff.


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## twinkletoes (May 26, 2003)

Both is definitely the answer.

I'm a blue belt in BJJ, and beyond the BJJ class I teach and the training I receive from my own instructor, I train weekly with a Judoka and a collegiate wrestler.  We exchange info for two hours per session:  they help me with my standing game, I help with their ground game.  It's great!  

Do them all.  

~Chris


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## KenpoDragon (May 26, 2003)

In my opinion, wrestling doesn't focus on submissions enough, good takedowns, but not much follow through. Brazilian Jiujitsu, on the other hand has some good takedowns, but they prefer the groundwork almost all the time. I personally prefer Japanese Jujutsu or Judo which has great takedowns and great submissions. You have to remember that in a street fight there aren't any padded mats to fall on, it is usually concrete or some hard type of floor. I don't recommend going down on the ground when its concrete. Also going down with your opponent isn't always good, what about if he has a friend with him. While your down on the ground with the one guy, the other one comes along and kicks you in the head. Or there is always the knife in the back pocket thing, I don't suggest groundwork unless absolutely necessary. Look for something that focuses on taking the guy down while staying on your feet.Just my opinion though.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## MartialArtist (Jun 10, 2003)

Looks like you're 16/17.  DO BOTH.  Money shouldn't be a problem for wrestling, just pay $20 and wrestle at your school.  You learn a hell of a lot of the basics, especially footwork and takedowns.  You'll discover what your wrestling style is and will be comfortable with a lot of the things taught at your BJJ school and the same goes visa versa.  Just don't put the other guy in a choke or something during a match.  Both BJJ and wrestling are sport-oriented today, like most other martial arts, but comparing BJJ with scholastic wrestling?


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## MJS (Jun 22, 2003)

Depends on what you are looking for.  Both have much to offer.  The wrestlers have awesome takedowns.  The BJJ guys have good takedowns too, but I think some of the wrestlers might have more of an edge.  As for the submissions, it goes to the BJJ guys.  I haven't seen any wrestler match the submissions of a BJJ fighter.  

Another thing to keep in mind.  You see alot of wrestlers in NHB fights.  Where do they get the majority of their submissions from?  BJJ fighter!

Mike


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## Old Tiger (Jul 15, 2003)

Kosen Judo:

After having several of his top students become newaza experts, Kano thought it a good idea to use this type of Judo in the school system. As the matches ended in submission instead of serious injury, it would be seen more in a sportive way. So in 1914 he organized the All Japan High School championships at Kyoto Imperial University. He called this sportive style Kosen. By 1925 so much emphasis was on newaza - because of its success in contest that Kano had to make some new Judo rules limiting the amount of time the Judoka could stay on the ground. This "Kosen Rule" continued into the 1940's, stating Shiai had to be 70% standing and 30% ground fighting. This led to an early split in the Kodokan Judo movement. Many of those Judoka whom Kano had set to master newaza, had spent time inventing new series of movements, escapes, and submissions. They and their students were now dominating even the Kodokan contests. There was so much negativity with this, that Kano sent many of them abroad to teach Judo elsewhere. He was very aware that they would not be easily defeated no matter where they went, and he also smartly removed the challenge they presented in Japan. Some of the known Kosen Judoka were Yamashita, Hirata, Tomita, Yokoyama and Maeda. 

Kosen Judo has only continued in a few places. One example is Hirata Kanae's dojo is in Japan. He died in 1998, but the dojo still continues. Then there is Brazil, which started with Maeda. Mitsuyo Maeda who began training in Judo in 1897, and became one of the troublesome Kosen Judoka who was sent abroad with Tsunejiro Tomita. Traveling in the US, Maeda outshone his senior Tomita, defeating wrestlers and fighters that had beaten Tomita. Tomita and Maeda went their separate ways - with Maeda going onto the early "fighting circuit" for money. He even travelled to Europe where he lost the only two matches of his life against a Catch Wrestler. He spent extra time (a year and a half)  with the wrestler learning some of those techniques. Finally in 1915 Maeda settled in Brazil where he taught Carlos Gracie, the son of a local politician. Carlos Gracie and his brothers adopted the Kosen Judo techniques and developed them further during the 20th century into what came to be known as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  Maeda supposedly fought over 2000 matches in his career and lost only two... to a Catch Wrestler.  

Maeda was in London, England, from February 1907 - June 1908. According to one historical source he entered and was defeated in a Catch as Catch Can tournament. Maeda evidiently learned form his losses and may have studied some Catch while in the UK. The source asserts that: 

Maeda Mitsuyo, a judo 5-dan who had wrestled professionally in the United States, Britain, Spain, Cuba, Panama, and Mexico, settles in Brazil. Around 1919, while working for a Brazilian circus, Maeda taught a mix of Kodokan judo and catch-as-catch-can wrestling to a 17-year old Brazilian named Carlos Gracie


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## Greggers69 (Jul 15, 2003)

You can't really compare to say which is better.  You use one for comptetition and the other for self defense.  On could very easily compliment the other.  But not one is better than the other.


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## twinkletoes (Jul 15, 2003)

Hi catch,

Thanks for the recap.  I'm not sure it'll shake anyone up--most BJJers have heard the story lots of times.  

The detail you mention that I am not familiar with is Maeda teaching catch.  Do you have sources you can cite for that one?

Thanks,

~TT


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