# Gunting/Limb Destructions



## MJS (Oct 8, 2004)

Not sure if this was already discussed, so my appologies in advance if that is the case.

On another forum, I was recently in a discussion with someone about limb destructions/gunting.  There was a mixed response, with some, including myself, saying that they are effective, and others stating that due to the adrenal rush, they may not be that effective.  IMO, I see them more of an opener to other things, and not so much as a fight stopper.  Like anything, including punches and kicks, in the "heat of the battle" even those may not be felt.

Thoughts and comments??

Mike


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## Flatlander (Oct 8, 2004)

I have, a couple of times, been able to execute a reasonably decent gunt in an all out spar. I have never used one combatively. I recall one of the spar landings was effective enough to do its job - an opening was created, and I was allowed entry. I won't go into how I lost the edge from there, let's just say the gunt worked, but not much else did that day.


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## JPR (Oct 8, 2004)

I am not sure that a gunting is meant to be a stopper as such.  My understanding is that is used to inflict some damage, and if you hit the right spot, slow / disable a limb.  I know that if you hit a pressure point, even lightly, you can deaden the limb.  

For example, my partner and I were trading light kicks to the legs.  I did a backside kick and tapped him on the thigh with my heel.  It was light contact, but it caught him dead on the pressure point.  He lost all feeling in the leg and had to kneel down, rub the leg, and wait a couple of minutes before we could continue.  The kick didnt hurt him, it just robbed him of the use of his leg.  His leg wouldnt respond, hold weight, etc. [Yes, I was very proud of myself, even if it was luck that I hit the right spot.  Yes, I declared victory, and did the victory dance.]

The point of all of this is that you dont need to feel the impact / pain, you just need to knuckle the right spot on your opponents arm / kick the right spot on your opponents leg and the muscle will fail to work.

JPR


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## John J (Oct 8, 2004)

I think there needs to first be some clarification. Gunting means scissor so it is the term used to describe the scissoring motion or in some cases described as split sector. However, many people have confused the term with destruction which is not accurate. 

With that said, I will comment on both. Although I do not use this term, I do use the motion as a transitory or entry movement for locking or controlling a limb when it is extended (i.e. single arm/hand push or high-line grab) It is certainly a viable tool when used as mentioned. I agree with you, nerve hits/destructions are for flinch response only. I think it is very difficult to precisely hit nerves for maximum effectiveness when all h*ll breaks loose. Although in theory & practice it is a good thing.

Yours in the Arts,

Guro John G. Jacobo
School for the Warrior Arts & Combatives (www.swacom.com)
BAKBAKAN International (www.bakbakan.com)


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## MJS (Oct 8, 2004)

Great replies! Thanks!!  As it can be seen, hitting the right spot can buy you some time to go into other things..IE- strikes, locks, etc.  The person I was talking to basically didn't rate them too high on the scale of things to do.  I seem to think that he either A) doesnt have much exp. with them, or B) was thinking that they are solely used to end the situation.

Mike


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## Mark Lynn (Oct 8, 2004)

I always thought the term gunting referred to limb destructions.  I think the 1st time I heard the term used was from Dan Inosanto.  Looking back on it the applications he showed often times had a crossing/uncrossing of the hands (scissoring motion).  Although many times it seemed that the hand hit and then bounced right into another technique (a hit/eye strike/palm heel/check or what ever.

Then I think I heard that it refered only to the scissoring motion (I think from GM Remy Presas) so I semi dropped even using the term as well.

Anyway what I liked about the technique or the motion of the technique was the application of using a fist load (kubaton/palm stick/mini mag lite/knife) to destroy or cut the limb.  In this respect I think it would be viable in a self defense situation.  (I keep thinking of the Bourne Identity fight scene how Matt Damon used a ball point pen.   ) 

Mark


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## bart (Oct 11, 2004)

I've seen some ridiculous executions of the gunting and those would be extremely hard to pull of and most likely would injure your own elbow as well. I think that the best way to view limb destructions is as just another type of strike to another type of target. If one of your principles is to "do damage on the way in and damage on the way out", then you'll execute these type of attacks naturally. The same natural effect can be found in application of the principle of "closest weapon strikes the closest target". 

One way I have found effective is to check not with the palm but with the heel of the palm and then to check by striking. It has the same effect defensively, but also has a strong offensive affect. I first learned that in Wing Chun and it made a lot of sense, but I really began to understand it when I applied it in the context of the FMA. Just think about how many times you've traded with someone who has "heavy hands". Using those hands in the same manner, but with an attacking mindset, is really what I believe to be effective limb destruction.


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## Tgace (Oct 11, 2004)

IMHO, the only way "limb destruction" is going to work in "combat" is if you mechanically destroy parts of that limb. a la cut muscles, tendons etc. or break bones. Otherwise its just another method of deflection/blocking. In blade/stick fighting I would say its absolutely effective, empty hand.....probably not as much.


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## bart (Oct 11, 2004)

I would count a stomp kick that blows out the knee to be a pretty effective limb destruction. I also think a popped elbow would be pretty good too. If you can hit hard enough with your hand to break ribs then if you train effectively in the ability to strike with the same power against limbs, at the correct angles you can do a lot of damage. There is no question that destructions can be better done with the aid of a weapon, but to discount the chance of an effective limb destruction being done by a foot, should, elbow, or empty hand is flawed. When you employ an attack to the limb, it may not remove it permanently, but it will help get it out of the way for the moment you need it out of the way as you take out the head or other sensitive areas that the limbs protect. 

I've seen a lot of limb destruction work that people put out and it is very "stop action" stuff and completely ignores the concept of "flurry" or that the opponent may be throwing a combination or even that the opponent will simply move more than once. So I agree that a lot of that is checking and blocking more than an attack to the limb. But a hit to a muscle can cramp it, a strike to the bone can break it, and an attack to a joint can bust it. The trick is to get it right.


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## Tgace (Oct 11, 2004)

Absolutely. Im not saying that its impossible emptyhanded, just not as likely. Any good strike to a limb with a weapon stands a good chance of mechanical destruction. The odds of getting the same result without one... not so much.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 11, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> I've seen some ridiculous executions of the gunting and those would be extremely hard to pull of and most likely would injure your own elbow as well. I think that the best way to view limb destructions is as just another type of strike to another type of target. If one of your principles is to "do damage on the way in and damage on the way out", then you'll execute these type of attacks naturally. The same natural effect can be found in application of the principle of "closest weapon strikes the closest target".
> 
> One way I have found effective is to check not with the palm but with the heel of the palm and then to check by striking. It has the same effect defensively, but also has a strong offensive affect. I first learned that in Wing Chun and it made a lot of sense, but I really began to understand it when I applied it in the context of the FMA. Just think about how many times you've traded with someone who has "heavy hands". Using those hands in the same manner, but with an attacking mindset, is really what I believe to be effective limb destruction.



Bart has some really good points here.

Some people figure it our from other arts they have studied, others jsut get it over time, and then there are some whose instructors also share with them these concepts. It matters not how you travel the path, just so long as your do.

Thank you for posting this Bart

:asian:


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## Mark Lynn (Oct 11, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Absolutely. Im not saying that its impossible emptyhanded, just not as likely. Any good strike to a limb with a weapon stands a good chance of mechanical destruction. The odds of getting the same result without one... not so much.



I agree here with Tgace which is why I posted about using a fist load, knife or some sort of weapon to strike or cut the arm muscles etc. etc.

However even an arm or fist destruction that might be somewhat bizarre can work at the right time.  for example.  A former student once told me (he and I had a common instructor over the years and we got talking about a particular technique we learned from him) about how he had learned and practiced a fist destruction where he elbowed the punch coming in (off of say a jab) while the lead hand guided the punch into the elbow.  common technique that Dan Inosanto has shown.  Anyway one night after class he got accosted by two drunks and one threw a punch at him and he insticntively reacted by executing the technique and elbowing (smashing) the drunks fist.  This allowed him to leave this individual and deal with the second assailent.  And then get inside of the store away from them.

The elbow to the fist he said took the fight out of the first drunk by hurting the hand.  Right technique right time.  

Mark


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## loki09789 (Oct 12, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> I agree here with Tgace which is why I posted about using a fist load, knife or some sort of weapon to strike or cut the arm muscles etc. etc.
> 
> However even an arm or fist destruction that might be somewhat bizarre can work at the right time. for example. A former student once told me (he and I had a common instructor over the years and we got talking about a particular technique we learned from him) about how he had learned and practiced a fist destruction where he elbowed the punch coming in (off of say a jab) while the lead hand guided the punch into the elbow. common technique that Dan Inosanto has shown. Anyway one night after class he got accosted by two drunks and one threw a punch at him and he insticntively reacted by executing the technique and elbowing (smashing) the drunks fist. This allowed him to leave this individual and deal with the second assailent. And then get inside of the store away from them.
> 
> ...


"Gunting" can be viewed as a particular application or as a tactical approach.  I tend to teach gunting as a way of applying techniques within the tactical approach, much like Bart has described.  Break 'em on the way in and on the way out.  Defanging the Cobra, Limb destruction, Gunting, "hit the closest target they give you..." what ever you want to call it, it comes down to fighting like it is your  life on the line and not a tournament with rules where body shots and head shots are the only valid things to practice.

I've seen 'Gunting' applied in other arts as common practice because they are scraping and breaking and chewing up arms, hands, legs, necks....


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## Flatlander (Oct 12, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> However even an arm or fist destruction that might be somewhat bizarre can work at the right time. for example. A former student once told me (he and I had a common instructor over the years and we got talking about a particular technique we learned from him) about how he had learned and practiced a fist destruction where he elbowed the punch coming in (off of say a jab) while the lead hand guided the punch into the elbow. common technique that Dan Inosanto has shown.


This is a beautiful technique, one of my "bread and butters".  If in fact gunting means scissoring, this could even be considered that, as the way I do it I am crossing the left and right side, if not quite as pronounced as I would if both my arms were extended.  Anyway, great technique, one of my staples.  Not "bizarre" at all (to me).


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## KyleShort (Oct 12, 2004)

I wouldn't say that a destruction needs to strictly refer to breaking a bone/joint or tearing muscle/tendons. All that you really need to do is cause a moment of weakness in your opponent so that you can capitalize on it. Good heavy strikes to a limb can temporarily "destroy" the effectiveness of that limb, giving you just the edge you need.

Just think of the times when you whacked your funny bone, or sat on a seat belt wrong


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## Tgace (Oct 12, 2004)

Yes,I see your point, but I would argue that things are "different" when fear and adrenaline kick in. Think of all the stories you have heard of people continuing to fight with 17-20 bullets in them, not noticing that their limbs have nearly been severed or severe stab wounds until dropping blood pressure stops them.

I wouldnt depend too much on the "ouch" factor in a full blown fight.


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## JPR (Oct 13, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yes,I see your point, but I would argue that things are "different" when fear and adrenaline kick in. Think of all the stories you have heard of people continuing to fight with 17-20 bullets in them, not noticing that their limbs have nearly been severed or severe stab wounds until dropping blood pressure stops them.
> 
> I wouldnt depend too much on the "ouch" factor in a full blown fight.



When you see someone demonstrate a "full up" technique in FMA one thing you notice is that there is a cornucopia of striking / eye & throat jabbing / limb breaking / off balancing  going on.  To me, this is strictly because of ignoring the ouch factor.  Why break an arm when I have already jab his eyes, elbowed and broke his nose, and smacked him two or three other times?  The reason is to put on the pressure, keep the pressure on, and overwhelm him.  The gunting is only one technique of the flow you would do in a real life situation.  

JPR


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## loki09789 (Oct 13, 2004)

JPR said:
			
		

> When you see someone demonstrate a "full up" technique in FMA one thing you notice is that there is a cornucopia of striking / eye & throat jabbing / limb breaking / off balancing going on. To me, this is strictly because of ignoring the ouch factor. Why break an arm when I have already jab his eyes, elbowed and broke his nose, and smacked him two or three other times? The reason is to put on the pressure, keep the pressure on, and overwhelm him. The gunting is only one technique of the flow you would do in a real life situation.
> 
> JPR


The operative word in the translation of this stuff is "Destruction" for me.  If I am doing this stuff it is for biomechanical dysfunction and not to try and discourage the opponents desire to fight by inducing pain.  He lost any 'negotiation level' tactics from me when he/she/they present a  reasonable threat to my safety.

If I am using Limb destruction or any other technique in a real application the idea isn't so much to overwhelm the opponents conscious awareness and nervous system control but his functional level usage.

Make his hands, knees, eyes, airway....what ever dysfunction so that he can not take the fight to me for those 3-5 seconds that I need to take my avenue of escape and get out of dodge and report the Bad Guy from a safe place.

Using physical techniques as pain compliance tools is more reasonable for those in medical/institutional/security/LEO lines of work.  Everyone should have a basic set of these skills in their toolbox, but practical application for the 'average joe' is minimal at best.


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2004)

It certainly is interesting to see the mixed replies here.  I agree with the ones that said that having something in your hand will aid in the effectiveness of the gunt.  Again, I see these things as an opener to other things.  Yeah, with the adrenaline rushing, the person may not be effected by that strike, but the same can really be said about any strike we do.  We could elbow someone in the face, knock out a few teeth, and he could still keep coming.  

JPR made some good points in his post.  Keep the pressure on.  

Mike


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## loki09789 (Oct 13, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> It certainly is interesting to see the mixed replies here. I agree with the ones that said that having something in your hand will aid in the effectiveness of the gunt. Again, I see these things as an opener to other things. Yeah, with the adrenaline rushing, the person may not be effected by that strike, but the same can really be said about any strike we do. We could elbow someone in the face, knock out a few teeth, and he could still keep coming.
> 
> JPR made some good points in his post. Keep the pressure on.
> 
> Mike


Tools always help .  Your point about the elbow to the face is a good one.  That is why I don't train with the mentallity that the pain from that smashed face is going to be the motive that stops his fightability or determination to hurt me.  It will dysfunction his ability to breath well, focus (because of possible visual impairment, mild/severe concussing of the brain from the impact, the redirection of biological assets from helping him hurt me to healing/repairing that damage, energy drain....) that will make it harder for him to fight well.

Change the elbow smash to the face to a smashed/swollen/sprained ankle or wrist and the weapons/mobility assets he can direct at me are reduced.

PLUS, if I learn the language of 'mechanical dysfunction' and 'stopping the threat' I reduce the spin doctoring of legal beagles who will try to imply that I INTENDED to hurt him if I use language like "Cause him pain" which can take way from a Self defense....well, defense for my use of force and spins it into intentionally causing bodily harm (ala Assault, mutual combat....or something else that gets me fined, jailed, sued....).


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## Flatlander (Oct 13, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> PLUS, if I learn the language of 'mechanical dysfunction' and 'stopping the threat' I reduce the spin doctoring of legal beagles who will try to imply that I INTENDED to hurt him if I use language like "Cause him pain" which can take way from a Self defense....well, defense for my use of force and spins it into intentionally causing bodily harm (ala Assault, mutual combat....or something else that gets me fined, jailed, sued....).


This is just plain smart.  Thanks for detailing the reasoning here, Paul - this is excellent from a perspective of personal liability.


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## Mark Lynn (Oct 13, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> This is a beautiful technique, one of my "bread and butters".  If in fact gunting means scissoring, this could even be considered that, as the way I do it I am crossing the left and right side, if not quite as pronounced as I would if both my arms were extended.  Anyway, great technique, one of my staples.  Not "bizarre" at all (to me).



Flatlander

For me this type of technique always seemed to be along the lines of destroying/injuring the fist so the fight wouldn't continue.  In fact I believe Dan Inosanto taught it as (his instructors taught him) hitting the fist with this upward elbow specfically to hit the pinky and break it.  Thereby possibly ending the fight before really serious harm comes to anybody.  This was kind of a compassionate technique in a sense compared to the others that have been posted talking about destroying the arm then the face etc. etc. as a way to destroy the opponent.

I mentioned "bizarre" because in that context of trying to break the pinky/hand in order to stop a fight before it can really begin, seems to be a high ideal to me.  And not something that everyone could normally pull off.  But in the right place and the right time it worked.  SO "bizarre" wasn't really the best term to descibe the technique.

I am glad you use it though.  Do you use it in sparring?

Mark


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## Flatlander (Oct 13, 2004)

Mark, actually, I do this destruction on a down angle, rather than up.  Think angles 1 and 2, but with elbows.  The other hand draws across from the other direction, so as to make a scissoring motion.  They (the hand and elbow) just don't cross quite as deeply as a "hands only" technique might.

Yes, in fact I use it as often as I can - when we do spar it is with the open-palm style spar mitts.  I'm not saying it'll always land, but its nice when it does.

Just as everything else, there is a time and place for everything - this would be something that I would use at general striking range.  What I like about it is that it's an intercept/destruction that I can utilize without having to commit myself to entering too deep, yet follow ups flow quite nicely from it (backfist, parries, brush,grab,strike, etc.,) and I'm able to generate power through the twist, rather than needing to move in.


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