# Formalities in Bujinkan



## Bushi (Dec 14, 2004)

As many are aware from the previous thread "ninpo Syllabus", I am looking to the Bujinkan to futher my training. I stopped by the Bujinkan Tenchijin Dojo in Calgary tonight to tak a look-see, and the instructor was kind enough to let me partake in some training. Now, the big difference I noticed, was the lack of, for a better word, formalities. Such as bowing, Sensei, etc. In the dojo I was previously in, we trained with such curtasies as everything was hai sensei, domo sensei, bowing at the beginning and end of techniques, and when thrown or such, you would stay down in the "3-point" stance until tori bowed you up. Any reason in particular this wasn't evident in the class I partook in?


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## Don Roley (Dec 14, 2004)

Possibly the teacher was so secure in his abilities he did not need the students to act like they were 16th century samurai around him.

The Bujinkan Honbu in Japan sounds more like the new dojo than your old one. I have a real bad feeling about people that act more Japanese-ist than the guys in Japan.


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## Kreth (Dec 14, 2004)

I'm with Don, other than a bow in and bow out, most Bujinkan dojo I've been in have had a very informal atmosphere.

Jeff


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2004)

I'd be curious to know if any of the ryu under the Bujinkan ever had any bowing in them, and if so when/why it was taken out.

This would probably take some reading but of course I'm always open to the short answer.

In one video I've seen, there were still formalities at the hombu dojo, but having never been there I couldn't say if this was done just for the video or not. (People were demonstrating the Kihon Happo and then returning to their seated position in seiza, but never took their eyes off of their opponent while returning)

I know there are still other schools in Japan that continue to use the bow so I'm sure it depends on the school and their methods of teaching. Now I'm back to my first question.


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## Tengu6 (Dec 14, 2004)

The only real formality you will most likely see is the Bowing in and Bowing out with the phrase "Shikin Haramitsu Daikomyo". One can debate the importance, or lack thereof, in dojo formalities. In my opinion, showing respect is important....but we are not re-enacting periods in history, we are training for real life....so there is no need for playing Samurai dress up.

I think if you hang around long enough you will see the respect among Bujinkan members is eveident but not pretentious. you will also find that we have a great respect for our lineage. ytuo will also find that we can argue, and very intensely at that, and still respect each other and even be friends in the end.

Its kinda interesting, you can see various members fight like dogs but when one Bujinkan member is in need............others will rally around them faster than you can blink. I know that is kind of off the topic but it shows the respect and family atmosphere that surrounds us.

Markk Bush


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## Dale Seago (Dec 14, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> I'd be curious to know if any of the ryu under the Bujinkan ever had any bowing in them, and if so when/why it was taken out.
> 
> This would probably take some reading but of course I'm always open to the short answer.
> 
> ...



I don't think it's a matter of the ryu so much as it is of Japanese culture. 
Bushi commented, "In the dojo I was previously in, we trained with such curtasies as everything was hai sensei, domo sensei, bowing at the beginning and end of techniques, and when thrown or such, you would stay down in the "3-point" stance until tori bowed you up."

I haven't observed people in Japan being that reflexively formal in social or business settings, so why should martial-art training be that much different?

I suspect the dojo etiquette Bushi describes is more the result of people imposing their expectations/assumptions about Japanese culture onto their teaching/training than anything else.

That being said, however, I think Bujinkan training in Japan is probably more relaxed and informal than that of many other arts. In Hatsumi sensei's classes and in various dojo I've visited there's generally a brief bowing in/out ceremony and that's about it.

MisterMike, the video you describe sounds like "Kobudo no Kihon". I literally laughed when I watched that part, as I have never seen things done that way in Japan (the bowing for each technique and then mad-doggin' each other until seated again).


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> I don't think it's a matter of the ryu so much as it is of Japanese culture.
> Bushi commented, "In the dojo I was previously in, we trained with such curtasies as everything was hai sensei, domo sensei, bowing at the beginning and end of techniques, and when thrown or such, you would stay down in the "3-point" stance until tori bowed you up."
> 
> I haven't observed people in Japan being that reflexively formal in social or business settings, so why should martial-art training be that much different?
> ...



Agreed.  :asian: 

Yes, that sounds like the video I watched. I also thought it was, umm, well a little overdone during that segment.


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## Kreth (Dec 14, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> In one video I've seen, there were still formalities at the hombu dojo, but having never been there I couldn't say if this was done just for the video or not. (People were demonstrating the Kihon Happo and then returning to their seated position in seiza, but never took their eyes off of their opponent while returning)


This sounds like the Kobudo no Kihon video. I believe this was done just for the video. IME, as I mentioned above, there is a bow-in and bow-out, but very little formality aside from that, even in the Japanese dojo. Of course, it's always appropriate to bow to Hatsumi sensei or one of the Japanese shihan should they offer you correction.

Jeff


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 14, 2004)

People who come to the Bujinkan after having practiced for example modern karate styles, aikido and kendo, tend to say that people in their new dojo make fun of them because they bow too much...also, I challenge all of you to show me a dojo other than mine where in the middle of training, for no apparent reason, the instructor all of a sudden desides to take small, frog-like leaps across the mat...:ultracool 

Still, I can't see how a traditional Japanese military art can appeal to Parkour-practicing punkers...


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## DWeidman (Dec 14, 2004)

Bushi said:
			
		

> As many are aware from the previous thread "ninpo Syllabus", I am looking to the Bujinkan to futher my training. I stopped by the Bujinkan Tenchijin Dojo in Calgary tonight to tak a look-see, and the instructor was kind enough to let me partake in some training. Now, the big difference I noticed, was the lack of, for a better word, formalities. Such as bowing, Sensei, etc. In the dojo I was previously in, we trained with such curtasies as everything was hai sensei, domo sensei, bowing at the beginning and end of techniques, and when thrown or such, you would stay down in the "3-point" stance until tori bowed you up. Any reason in particular this wasn't evident in the class I partook in?


As an aside...

This seems to be a common way to run a cult - for what it is worth. It is an imposed system used to constantly remind the minions of their place. 

Respect is earned...

-Daniel


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## Bushi (Dec 14, 2004)

Believe me Daniel, this was not a Cult. I am still alive and well, and not lying dead in a room with 39 others with my balls cut off waiting for the "space ship" to take me away. No disrespect intended to Daniels opinion or thos who were "taken away". I believe it was my instructors attempt to give the dojo a more "traditional" feel, as it would back in the day of warriors,samurai, and ninja. (not to say that there aren't any of those today, but you get the idea). My instructor taught me so much information that has enhanced my life both physically, mentally, as well as spiritually.


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## Kizaru (Dec 14, 2004)

Bushi said:
			
		

> Believe me Daniel, this was not a Cult..


Your description sounded "cultish" to me, too.



			
				Bushi said:
			
		

> I believe it was my instructors attempt to give the dojo a more "traditional" feel, as it would back in the day of warriors,samurai, and ninja...


But for the most part, those "rituals" aren't carried on in martial arts schools in Japan.

In my experience, dojo outside of the Bujinkan all seem to have their "bow in/bow out with dojo moto" tradition, but during training, respect is shown to seniors with a quick head nod or dip of the tip of your sword when you begin training together. That's it. Sure, there are protocols for passing weapons to each other, but in my experience, that's been for safety more than for respect or a "traditional feel". 

And unless the person I was speaking with was a native speaker of Japanese, I would have a _very_ hard time calling someone "sensei" with a straight face outside of Japan. The reality of the student-teacher relationship in Japan is radically different than the way it's sterotyped in the West. In my experience, it's been more like an American "Uncle-nephew" kind of relationship rather than the grovelling student constantly trying to please the distant, all-knowing master.


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## Bushi (Dec 15, 2004)

I see your point. I did not mean to say that the dojo I trained in was more Japanish than the ones in Japan or even the Bujinkan one I visited. I was unaware that that is how training is conducted in Japan. I always had the impression that with the Japanes being very formal people, that the curtasies in a traditional Japanese dojo would be as they were back in "Feudal" Japan. And having only the dojo I trained in to be my only sort of reference and experience, and being that was how we trained, I was merely taken back at how things were conducted in this Bujinkan dojo. Thats all. I take no offense to the way things were conducted either, dont get me wrong. It was just different and peaked my curiosity. Sorry if there was any confusion about this. On a completely different note, an interesting thing happened today. My classmates and I are still searching dojos in our city just to see whats out there. We came across one offering "authentic ninpo", when one of my buddies called the guy an interesting conversation occured. He mentioned that we had studied under Paul Lawrence, and the guy refused to even consider us as students. He apparently studied under Mr. Lawrence at one time, and would not accept any of Pauls former students. The jist my classmate got from what the guy said was that Mr. Lawrence was obvioiusly higher ranked than himself, and he didn't want his current students to think that he wasn't as good a teacher as Mr. Lawrence. Just goes to show you what kind of people are out there claiming to offer "authentic" arts, but when confronted, shift back into the shadows. Not to mention the institution also offered a program called "Ninjacise". Hmmmmmm...... credibility, out the window!


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## Don Roley (Dec 15, 2004)

Bushi said:
			
		

> He mentioned that we had studied under Paul Lawrence, and the guy refused to even consider us as students. He apparently studied under Mr. Lawrence at one time, and would not accept any of Pauls former students. The jist my classmate got from what the guy said was that Mr. Lawrence was obvioiusly higher ranked than himself, and he didn't want his current students to think that he wasn't as good a teacher as Mr. Lawrence. Just goes to show you what kind of people are out there claiming to offer "authentic" arts, but when confronted, shift back into the shadows.



Start trying to think outside the box.

A possible alternate explination might be that as an older student than you he may be aware of aspects of Lawrence's evil charecter that you are not. One of these things may be that Lawrence sends out students to spy on possible rivals. So he looked at you like you were spies.

I have a friend that has had this happen to him. After he moved back to his home country after studying in Japan, an ex- Bujinkan member who ran a kind of a cult started sending students to check him out. I have heard similar stories from a wide variety of martial artists.

Cults and martial arts teachers can be strange things. You better be carefull considering just how ga ga you seem to go over people without taking a suspicious thought at any point and your lack of experience in the martial arts. I was just reading a letter from another friend when she talked about how a certain well- known instructor would get students to write letters to martial arts magazines asking why they did not cover him. And sometimes he would get them to go on internet forums asking about him, or finding some way to get his name known in discussions. Sometimes he himself would go on internet forums pretending to be a student praising himself and directing people to his web site.

Speaking of web sites, it seems a bit of an oversite for Lawrence to keep his up after he has stopped teaching. Some people might think that he was still accepting students. Maybe you better talk to him about taking it down ASAP.


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## Bushi (Dec 15, 2004)

I see how it would be good to have have his web site taken down asap. However I'm sure that's the last thing he is thinking about right now due to the recent family tragedies that have taken place. As well we still contact him through that web site and the email associated with it. But I guaruntee that the reason is the first one. He is going through a very rough time right now and I'm sure once things settle down the site will be removed. As for the "spying" I can understand how you could percieve this and I take you advice with much thanks. But having talked to students that have trained under him for years I have never heard of him sendind them out to spy on other dojos. I personally think the one we talked to simply did not have the credibility you would expect from an organization offering ninpo. I mean Ninjacise c'mon, really.


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## Bushi (Dec 15, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You better be carefull considering just how ga ga you seem to go over people without taking a suspicious thought at any point and your lack of experience in the martial arts.


 I'm sure I would use the term ga ga. I do have my suspiscious thoughts about him, and every other instructor I have met. However after getting to know Mr. Lawrence, I have aquired a great deal of respect for him. That's all. I know you have seen situations like this many times before Don, and I'm not saying you are wrong. I simply just respect him for what he has done for me. He was my instructor after all. And on the note of "Evil Character", not so much. I think mr. lawrence is probably one of the least evil people I have ever met. He is only interested in helping people, and is involved in many charities. At any rate we are all entitiled to our opinions of others, and yes Don I am careful(mostly thanks to your advice). I realise my lack of martial arrts experience puts me at a disadvantage.


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## Bushi (Dec 16, 2004)

Bushi said:
			
		

> I'm sure I would use the term ga ga.


 Sigh....
 I mean I'm not sure I would use the term ga ga. 

 man I've got to pay attention to what I write.


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## Bushi (Dec 17, 2004)

One other thing I noticed at this Bujinkan dojo I attended, was the lack of a kamidama. We had one in our old dojo, and I noticed there is one in the dojo featured in Dale's video clip. Any thoughts as to why there isn't one in this Tenchijin dojo?


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## Shizen Shigoku (Dec 17, 2004)

Some have 'em, some don't (kamidana / kamiza).


In the first dojo I trained in, we would bow towards the weapons rack. In the one I'm in now, we bow towards the stereo system. All other places I've trained at have been outdoors, and we would bow towards a tree or just to the earth in general. 

If there isn't anything in front of you that you feel is worth bowing to, then just form an image in your mind of something / someone you would like to pay respect to.


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## DWeidman (Dec 17, 2004)

Bushi said:
			
		

> Any thoughts as to why there isn't one in this Tenchijin dojo?


Did you ask Randy or Doug?  

Why would you want us to guess why they don't have one...  

-Daniel  

Perhaps they have a unnatural fear of ropes and pine...


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## Lawman85 (Dec 18, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Some have 'em, some don't (kamidana / kamiza).
> 
> 
> In the first dojo I trained in, we would bow towards the weapons rack. In the one I'm in now, we bow towards the stereo system. All other places I've trained at have been outdoors, and we would bow towards a tree or just to the earth in general.
> ...


I've always been taught to bow toward the west if no kamidana/kamiza is present.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Dec 18, 2004)

what is to the west of you?


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## Lawman85 (Dec 18, 2004)

Depends on how far you go....    Eventually you hit Japan, or end up right back where you started  lol... sorry, couldn't resist the joke.


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## DWeidman (Dec 23, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Did you ask Randy or Doug?
> 
> Why would you want us to guess why they don't have one...
> 
> ...


Well?  Did you ask?

What was your answer?

Curious...

-Daniel


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## Phipps (Dec 23, 2004)

I don't know, last time I stopped by the Calgary tenchijin I remember seeing something.  I think it had rope on it but not sure about pine.

 Anton Phipps


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