# Was Rokas wrong about bujinkan?



## Cynik75 (Jun 5, 2021)




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## jobo (Jun 5, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


>


another rokas thread!

why does anyone care what he thinks about anything at all ?

he does seem to have built a successful you tube channel out of changing his mind a lot, he isnt getting a hit off me


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2021)

jobo said:


> another rokas thread!
> 
> why does anyone care what he thinks about anything at all ?
> 
> he does seem to have built a successful you tube channel out of changing his mind a lot, he isnt getting a hit off me



It is called being swayed by evidence.

It is how scientific method works. And is the difference between a practical skill and a belief system. 

In this case there was no evidence to be swayed by so his mind wasn't changed.
So even if you don't care about what he thinks. It doesn't matter here.

Either the evidence was there to refute him or it wasn't.


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## jobo (Jun 5, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It is called being swayed by evidence.
> 
> It is how scientific method works.
> 
> ...


the scientific method doesn't involve any swaying at all


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2021)

jobo said:


> the scientific method doesn't involve any swaying at all


Only in Jobo world. 

For everyone else there is a hypothesis and then an experiment. 

So you have an idea. Then test that idea and then have a different idea once you analyse the results. 

Which is being swayed by evidence.


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## jobo (Jun 5, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Only in Jobo world.
> 
> For everyone else there is a hypothesis and then an experiment.
> 
> ...


there no swaying mate, you find a picture gram that includes swaying and il concede

you do know what swaying means i take it


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2021)

jobo said:


> there no swaying mate, you find a picture gram that includes swaying and il concede
> 
> you do know what swaying means i take it


to cause something to move or change:
Recent developments have swayed the balance of power in the region.


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## dunc (Jun 7, 2021)

For what it's worth I dropped him an email to say he'd be very welcome to come train with us in London if/when he's ever in town


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## Cynik75 (Jun 12, 2021)




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## dunc (Jun 13, 2021)

dunc said:


> For what it's worth I dropped him an email to say he'd be very welcome to come train with us in London if/when he's ever in town


And not had a response after a week


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2021)

dunc said:


> And not had a response after a week



Do you spar or roll or do live training though?

What would you be doing on the day?


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


>



I didn't sit though the three hours of that. What did I miss?


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## dunc (Jun 13, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Do you spar or roll or do live training though?
> 
> What would you be doing on the day?


In general class we train drills and do specific sparring only. Ie exercises to train specific techniques & adaptions under pressure/resistance 
I’m not a fan of free sparring for a bunch of reasons, but I and any of our more experienced folk will roll with anyone


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2021)

dunc said:


> In general class we train drills and do specific sparring only. Ie exercises to train specific techniques & adaptions under pressure/resistance
> I’m not a fan of free sparring for a bunch of reasons, but I and any of our more experienced folk will roll with anyone



You know all you technically need to do is show a video of that.


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## dunc (Jun 13, 2021)

Yeah - any videos I’ve taken have been technical - this is the closest thing I’ve got kicking around
When we’re back training again I’ll maybe post some
But actually I think Rokas wants free sparring evidence
I did send him a video of a Bujinkan shihan in an MMA match, but I suspect he saw this an outlier and only really evidence of someone who cross trains (which is right probably)


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## geezer (Jun 13, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Only in Jobo world.
> 
> For everyone else there is a hypothesis and then an experiment.
> 
> ...


The basic steps of the scientific method. I learned them back in about 7th grade. One of the most valuable things I ever learned. Too bad more people don't learn it and apply it to life.


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## Cynik75 (Jun 14, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I didn't sit though the three hours of that. What did I miss?


Nothing. Just read the youtube comments


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## Urban Trekker (Jun 14, 2021)

Well, his assessments of the systems that he scrutinizes do reflect a consensus in the martial arts community.  There are videos all over YouTube and articles all over Google that put aikido and bujinkan under the microscope, but you don't see people questioning the legitimacy of boxing or BJJ.

For better or for worse, whatever our reputation is, we did something to earn it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2021)

People are still trying to prove stuff to Rokas?  good grief.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 13, 2021)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Gender identity issues have nothing to do with this topic. Unrelated comments have been removed. Please return to the discussion of the original topic.

William H.
@Monkey Turned Wolf 
MartialTalk Moderator


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## Nigel (Jul 26, 2021)

dunc said:


> In general class we train drills and do specific sparring only. Ie exercises to train specific techniques & adaptions under pressure/resistance
> I’m not a fan of free sparring for a bunch of reasons, but I and any of our more experienced folk will roll with anyone


All bujinkan dojos practice randori. This is freestyle sparing and its part of the curriculum.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 26, 2021)

Only thing i can say is, they did this to themselves as a style, its pretty centralised.  And the wiki page even says hes moved away from ninjutsu focus, becuase of the mockery. 

i dont really know what Bujinkan is, but its lingege and the like is disputed, and its legitmacy is disputed, so is its functionality as a fighting sytem. 

you need to  establish a rule and judge it on the rule.   No point looking at prodidgies in the field, no use looking at people who cant do it right either.     (exeptions) 

id consider it ehh to compare it to combat sports as well, i wouldnt say fair as nothing in real life is fair, and people can be drastically diffrent in ability so it will never truely be fair.    Just imagine complaining a sprinter can run faster than a distance runner or a distance runner can go further thana  sprinter, they have both speiclsied in the opposite of each other and built their bodies to do that specilism the best. 

I dont think its really on topic, but this is a fair point, for everything really.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 26, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> All bujinkan dojos practice randori. This is freestyle sparing and its part of the curriculum.


Not in the sense that most systems use the words “randori” or “freestyle sparring“. They may do “randori” in the Aikido sense of a defender improvising responses to an uke feeding simple attacks, but it is extremely uncommon to find Bujinkan dojos with actual freestyle sparring where both participants are working to defe the other.


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## dunc (Jul 26, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> All bujinkan dojos practice randori. This is freestyle sparing and its part of the curriculum.


You're correct in that Bujinkan dojos practice freely responding to the situation
However, as Tony says very few practice this under pressure and even fewer practice pressured and unscripted


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## dunc (Jul 26, 2021)

Rat said:


> Only thing i can say is, they did this to themselves as a style, its pretty centralised.  And the wiki page even says hes moved away from ninjutsu focus, becuase of the mockery.
> 
> i dont really know what Bujinkan is, but its lingege and the like is disputed, and its legitmacy is disputed, so is its functionality as a fighting sytem.
> 
> ...


Hi
I think it's a bit strange to say that you don't know what the Bujinkan is and then to comment on it
It is pretty centralised in that a lot of folk travel(ed) to Japan regularly, but it's also an organisation that gives its members a high degree of freedom as to how they train, what they teach etc etc
The vast majority of the curriculum comes from lineages that are very well documented and agreed upon. The lineage of the less well documented traditions is much better understood now because some people actually took the time to do the research, but unfortunately many people put a lot of negative content out there before looking into it fully
I'd agree with your point about comparing to combat sports
D


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 26, 2021)

dunc said:


> I think it's a bit strange to say that you don't know what the Bujinkan is and then to comment on it


He says this regarding pretty much every style and also legal issues. I wouldn't worry too much about it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 26, 2021)

dunc said:


> The vast majority of the curriculum comes from lineages that are very well documented and agreed upon. The lineage of the less well documented traditions is much better understood now because some people actually took the time to do the research, but unfortunately many people put a lot of negative content out there before looking into it fully


It's been a long time since I've trained in the Bujinkan or even visited a dojo, although I do periodically check out what various Bujinkan folks put out on YouTube. I wonder sometimes what percentage of practice these days goes towards fundamentals which were passed down from the historical lineages vs certain ... creative (to put it politely) interpretations of the perceived principles which have been promulgated by various instructors from Hatsumi on down.

In my experience, the Bujinkan had plenty of reasonably sound fundamental techniques which seem to be in line with other historical Japanese systems I've seen footage of. The specifics might be a bit stylized compared to actual application, but I could believe that somebody at some point in the past actually used something like those techniques in a real fight, and many of them could be tweaked to have a reasonable modern application. Not all of them are high-percentage moves, but they could work given the right circumstances.

Then ... there are the moves which I would be willing to bet the entirety of my bank account that nobody in the history of human fighting has ever used in a real fight. Techniques which would only work if the opponent had a sudden stroke and became paralyzed in the middle of their movement. I have a strong suspicion that these techniques were not included in the historical lineages, but were created by current instructors showing off what they can do with overly compliant students who have been conditioned to feed slow-motion, incompetent attacks and then stand still with their arms outstretched while their teacher does whatever silly stuff occurs to them. Unfortunately this isn't just limited to some insufficiently trained individuals. I've seen techniques like that taught by Hatsumi and by other instructors holding high rank in the Bujinkan.


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## dunc (Jul 26, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's been a long time since I've trained in the Bujinkan or even visited a dojo, although I do periodically check out what various Bujinkan folks put out on YouTube. I wonder sometimes what percentage of practice these days goes towards fundamentals which were passed down from the historical lineages vs certain ... creative (to put it politely) interpretations of the perceived principles which have been promulgated by various instructors from Hatsumi on down.
> 
> In my experience, the Bujinkan had plenty of reasonably sound fundamental techniques which seem to be in line with other historical Japanese systems I've seen footage of. The specifics might be a bit stylized compared to actual application, but I could believe that somebody at some point in the past actually used something like those techniques in a real fight, and many of them could be tweaked to have a reasonable modern application. Not all of them are high-percentage moves, but they could work given the right circumstances.
> 
> Then ... there are the moves which I would be willing to bet the entirety of my bank account that nobody in the history of human fighting has ever used in a real fight. Techniques which would only work if the opponent had a sudden stroke and became paralyzed in the middle of their movement. I have a strong suspicion that these techniques were not included in the historical lineages, but were created by current instructors showing off what they can do with overly compliant students who have been conditioned to feed slow-motion, incompetent attacks and then stand still with their arms outstretched while their teacher does whatever silly stuff occurs to them. Unfortunately this isn't just limited to some insufficiently trained individuals. I've seen techniques like that taught by Hatsumi and by other instructors holding high rank in the Bujinkan.


Yes - if you stick to the techniques contained in the schools, AND understand their context, AND temper them with pressure, AND develop their henka (variations to typical responses/counters) THEN you have a very rich set of applicable and timeless techniques
You also have a load of interesting historical techniques and lessons that have a different kind of value for folk

But I agree the freedom to "create in the moment" is a well proven slippery slope with compliant training methods and I don't think it's a scalable way to develop folk who can fight


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 26, 2021)

dunc said:


> Hi
> I think it's a bit strange to say that you don't know what the Bujinkan is and then to comment on it
> It is pretty centralised in that a lot of folk travel(ed) to Japan regularly, but it's also an organisation that gives its members a high degree of freedom as to how they train, what they teach etc etc
> The vast majority of the curriculum comes from lineages that are very well documented and agreed upon. The lineage of the less well documented traditions is much better understood now because some people actually took the time to do the research, but unfortunately many people put a lot of negative content out there before looking into it fully
> ...


Outside opinion is important, the thread is about somones opinion on the style, and i never made any claim to the inner workings of it, just based on the information I can access.   Case and point its mocked and viewed like this for a reason, largely because everyone finds the now well known myth of "ninjas in pajamas" lovely hillarious, and there isnt enough information on the subject to really tell if there is  a"ninjutsu style", being codified etc.   the maker/owner of it knowing this, has now switched the focus away from that.


As far as i can tell, the styles he claims to have done and incorporate (beyond ninjutsu), are deemed legit, the unlegitness is if he has done them, has teaching licenses in them etc.    As far as i can tell from the wiki page.     (some exepetions exist, explained below)

Coming from memeory largely off wikipedia and some articles and school pages, i tried to skim the wiki page and the japanese isnt registering today and its a word salad, so im just going to shove the wiki page for origins and critism below.    As far as i can tell there is a aserix to some of the schools beyond ninjutsu as existing, the larger one is if it actually is licensed from them. 










						Bujinkan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Bujinkan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Is there honestly any reason to be positive or non critical towards it?  You are paying to learn a martial art on the basis its functional, and real.    I would honestly agree with Rokas on the point that, there are cults in martial arts, some schools are basically cults if not a blurred thin line away from being them, and some orginisations in general are, they can exist, and DO exist. 

Although some of this "negativity" could come from people associating this orginisation with a diffrent one due to the ninjtusu content i mentioned earlier, and who ever is in charge has adjusted accordingly, still bad its there when its a big "?" though, but it may have some legitimate well doccumented content in it, as opposed to some of the just soley "ninjutsu" schools.    You have to work with what you can access.     (and yes you should be criciitcal to somone who does it as they natrually should have a bias towards it, and if cult status is achived, be in a echo chamber).     I have no idea how i got here, but im keeping all of this. 


Note, you should be criticial towards it, its a bad sign if people disagree or dont want you to be, nothing bad can really come of being critical in regards to assessing skill, only they will loose a client/memeber. 

Addendum:  Wasnt intetional to be snarky, im just fed up of the Ninja pajama myth honestly.  Im fed up of the myths surrounding Ninja, and the fact there is a obvious disconnect between the west and jaapn to allow it to manifest easier.    Among other things.

On that note, i think i have to give this video a watch, i was boycotting his channel and not overly intrested in watching it, but i will return after watching it, im presuming there is some evidence of it being used effectively in there.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> All bujinkan dojos practice randori. This is freestyle sparing and its part of the curriculum.



You just never see it.


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## Steve (Jul 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You just never see it.


They are ninja, after all.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 26, 2021)

For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.

What next?  A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?


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## Steve (Jul 26, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.
> 
> What next?  A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?


That would be badass.  I'm in.  To be clear, I'm interested in romanticized piracy, a la Disney.  The real thing was pretty nasty.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 26, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Please return to the discussion of the original topic.


There is no topic in this thread. There is just one video with no text.

Sometime I don't understand why OP starts a thread like this? Why didn't OP share his opinion first?

I have learned the following lesson before.

A: Put up a video without any text.
B: My opinion is ...
A: This is I tell and you listen thread. Nobody care about your opinion.
B: ...


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.
> 
> What next?  A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?



I disagree. If ninjitsu lived up to the hype. I would be all over it.


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## dunc (Jul 27, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.
> 
> What next?  A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?


I think we're discussing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> That would be badass.  I'm in.  To be clear, I'm interested in romanticized piracy, a la Disney.  The real thing was pretty nasty.



Hmmm... but we've gotta somehow claim lineage from Henry Morgan or William Kidd.  That's how we get students in the door.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.
> 
> What next?  A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?


The skills itself, are legit, have reason and can be taught.      I can see why you would want to learn lockpicking, and there are a few jobs that have "ninja" skills as part of their description.   the pajma wearing and the apparnt disregard for what camoflauge is and means while claiming they are doing it, is complete and utter nonsense.    that and its outdated anyway, and not every country has the same standards or norms for locks etc for something absed in pre electricty japan to even have any bearing in modern japan, let alone anywhere else. 

although one of the jobs that comes to mind you should go into it with a pretty big computer science education, that being information security, a sub set of that is physical secuirty pen testing, so lock picking, and breaking into buildings 

Addendum: I dont mean the way they teach them, i mean the action of camoflauge, stalking, bleding in, lockpicking etc are all legit and have a reason to exist, how they do them as far as i have seen is nonsenscial and wont work.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> The skills itself, are legit, have reason and can be taught.      I can see why you would want to learn lockpicking, and there are a few jobs that have "ninja" skills as part of their description.   the pajma wearing and the apparnt disregard for what camoflauge is and means while claiming they are doing it, is complete and utter nonsense.    that and its outdated anyway, and not every country has the same standards or norms for locks etc for something absed in pre electricty japan to even have any bearing in modern japan, let alone anywhere else.
> 
> although one of the jobs that comes to mind you should go into it with a pretty big computer science education, that being information security, a sub set of that is physical secuirty pen testing, so lock picking, and breaking into buildings
> 
> Addendum: I dont mean the way they teach them, i mean the action of camoflauge, stalking, bleding in, lockpicking etc are all legit and have a reason to exist, how they do them as far as i have seen is nonsenscial and wont work.


Yeah, but there's also the lineage claims and the attempt to re-create something from centuries ago.

If there was actually a martial art that trained in urban and rural survival, maximization of available resources, etc, etc - but was NOT under the guise of lineage from something from the 16th century, I'd be all over it.  That would be right up my alley.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yeah, but there's also the lineage claims and the attempt to re-create something from centuries ago.
> 
> If there was actually a martial art that trained in urban and rural survival, maximization of available resources, etc, etc - but was NOT under the guise of lineage from something from the 16th century, I'd be all over it.  That would be right up my alley.


Oh dont get me wrong, Ninjutsu as a thing is highly dubious to have existed, and if it did it being codnfiied is highly dubious, and the main body that touts this has economic and political reasons to keep up apperances that it does/did. 

I am by no means in the "ninjutsu is legit/existed" block.    im in the, if a ninja or somone else is doing ninja things they are doing "nnnjutsu" block.   And that would be the better meaning of it, as far as i know Ninja were ad hoc anyway, no real training for them, no real style etc, just ad hoc done when needed.


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## Steve (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> Oh dont get me wrong, Ninjutsu as a thing is highly dubious to have existed, and if it did it being codnfiied is highly dubious, and the main body that touts this has economic and political reasons to keep up apperances that it does/did.
> 
> I am by no means in the "ninjutsu is legit/existed" block.    im in the, if a ninja or somone else is doing ninja things they are doing "nnnjutsu" block.   And that would be the better meaning of it, as far as i know Ninja were ad hoc anyway, no real training for them, no real style etc, just ad hoc done when needed.


Being serious for a moment, which is hard when talking about ninja, I always thought they were more like the Thuggee cult.  Not trained in martial arts, but more like they would infiltrate groups, gain their trust, and then do whatever it is they needed to do.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> Being serious for a moment, which is hard when talking about ninja, I always thought they were more like the Thuggee cult.  Not trained in martial arts, but more like they would infiltrate groups, gain their trust, and then do whatever it is they needed to do.


Something like that, im not in the know for the all the information.    Still pretty sure its adhoc, violence done by them would be a expetion tot heir job for self defence or ad hoc missions as far as i recall.   They were meant to be spies, spies generally get drafted into assasinating and sabataging things. 

I think the meaning may be diffren to translated to english and in japanese, we cant forget the semantics point here and people adjusing the langauge to maintain a point.


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## Steve (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> Something like that, im not in the know for the all the information.    Still pretty sure its adhoc, violence done by them would be a expetion tot heir job for self defence or ad hoc missions as far as i recall.   They were meant to be spies, spies generally get drafted into assasinating and sabataging things.
> 
> I think the meaning may be diffren to translated to english and in japanese, we cant forget the semantics point here and people adjusing the langauge to maintain a point.


I'm no expert either.  I am only passingly familiar.  But from what I've read, they would basically infiltrate travelling caravans, gain the trust of the folks, and then strangle, poison, or stab them in their sleep.  Then steal all their stuff.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> Something like that, im not in the know for the all the information.    Still pretty sure its adhoc, violence done by them would be a expetion tot heir job for self defence or ad hoc missions as far as i recall.   They were meant to be spies, spies generally get drafted into assasinating and sabataging things.
> 
> I think the meaning may be diffren to translated to english and in japanese, we cant forget the semantics point here and people adjusing the langauge to maintain a point.


My understanding is that what we think of as "ninja suits" today was actually something that was worn by stage hands for kabuki theater, which is why in some Japanese fiction - such as anime and manga (I'm not into either one of those, for the record) - some ninjas are also dressed as kabuki themselves.  Apparently, this became associated with ninjas during humorous interludes where people dressed the same as the stagehands would come onto the stage and proceed to "kill" them.

In any case, I wouldn't even expect a shinobi from the 16th century to fare very well in hand to hand combat.  If his job was to simply do a particular task without being caught, then he simply would have used a weapon in order to kill whoever saw him, maybe quickly hide the body, and immediately return to the mission at hand.  His mission would be botched if he got into a knock-down drag-out fight with anyone.

I imagine that the only use for unarmed combat in the case of a shinobi would a temporary situation until they could retrieve a dropped weapon, but even then, I'd think they'd be carrying multiple weapons and that they'd simply pull out another instead.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 27, 2021)

Here's the big elephant in the room:  if Bunjinkan/modern ninjutsu, whatever, has an unbroken lineage going to back to the 16th century, well, first off, I want to see some photographs of their dojos from the late 19th/early 20th century.  Hell, I might be satisfied with one that was taken at any time before the release of _You Only Live Twice_.  I'm sure they'll say that it was practiced in secret until then, which they know everyone will laugh off.

Okay, but that's not the big elephant that I'm talking about; it's this.  If the lineage is unbroken and goes back to the 16th century, then how do they explain the immediate and widespread popularity of karate in Japan upon the annexation of Okinawa?  Surely, if Japan already had this perfectly fine striking/hybrid art - which is arguably way "cooler" than karate - the Japanese would have no reason to take interest in karate, right?


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## Steve (Jul 27, 2021)

There's a series on NHK called Ninja Truth and is billed as a documentary show.  Each episode is 15 minutes long.  This is episode 14, but there are over a dozen produced and they're pretty much all available online.









						NINJA TRUTH Episode 14: Ninja in Tokyo - 15 Minutes | NHK WORLD-JAPAN On Demand
					

Although the ninja are known for working in the shadows, the early Edo period found them serving in one-hundred-man units. Join Chris Glenn and Professor Yuji Yamada as they explore Tokyo and visit sites associated with the ninja. Their tour -- interspersed with reenactments -- reveals the deep...




					www3.nhk.or.jp
				




Edit:  Found episode 1:









						NINJA TRUTH Episode 1 - 15 Minutes | NHK WORLD-JAPAN On Demand
					

Ninja are now seen in popular media around the world. But as their profile rises, their reality gets muddied amid legends and fantasies. The truth about authentic ninja lies unknown, shrouded in mystery. This program carefully examines the fighting skills and tools used by actual ninja, and...




					www3.nhk.or.jp


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## dunc (Jul 27, 2021)

Hi all

If you’re interested in the history of ninja in Japan, then there are several English language books on the subject. Some better than others - Stephen Turbull is pretty accessible
To my knowledge the only research done to connect the traditions to modern day has been done by Sean Askew who shares his findings in his book

On the Bujinkan in a nutshell:
Bujinkan curriculum is made up of several schools passed down through the Kuki family and their associates and a few schools passed down through the Toda family. Hatsumi’s teacher Takamatsu was related to both families
The Kuki  family is a famous samurai family so the Kuki (& associates) lineage is well documented, has several other independent lines and is undisputed
The Toda family has a history as the samurai owning one of the castles in Iga, teaching sword at a military academy and of working for the shogun in roles traditionally associated with the ninja
The schools passed down from Toda-Sensei are a little different in outlook, movement and weaponry to the more traditional/mainstream schools. Some of the weapons are a bit “ninjery”: climbing hooks with ropes, climbing claws etc. One of these schools has about 10 techniques that deal with how to escape when trapped or grabbed, including methods for hiding and evasion. These are pretty practical and straightforward really
We know that Takamatsu taught these techniques to Hatsumi in the 60s because we have photos of them performing the techniques
All the Toda schools place more emphasis on escape and deception than the more mainstream schools

All in all the 10(ish) techniques that are what most folk would identify as being appropriate for someone operating in a clandestine manner are a very small part of the 1,000+ techniques contained in the 9 schools contained in the Bujinkan

Hence the name Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

History is not what the popularists would have us believe and human endeavors are very fluid and hard to categorise in reality. Even the name ninja is a relatively modern term. The black clad person with a mask on is likely a derivative of the stage hands from Noh theatre. And so on


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> Being serious for a moment, which is hard when talking about ninja, I always thought they were more like the Thuggee cult.  Not trained in martial arts, but more like they would infiltrate groups, gain their trust, and then do whatever it is they needed to do.



I think it was more the action itself. So you get a bunch of soldiers to sneak around and they are ninjas.

Which is why you get that civilian black ops vibe sometimes.


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## Nigel (Jul 27, 2021)

dunc said:


> Hi all
> 
> If you’re interested in the history of ninja in Japan, then there are several English language books on the subject. Some better than others - Stephen Turbull is pretty accessible
> To my knowledge the only research done to connect the traditions to modern day has been done by Sean Askew who shares his findings in his book
> ...


Yes this is correct Sean Askew has done a lot of research work recently on the lineage of the Bujinkan and has documented it in his book -  Hidden Lineage The Ninja of the Toda clan.
Hidden Lineage: The Ninja of the Toda Clan eBook : Askew, Sean: Amazon.com.au: Kindle Store
The lineage may be disputed by some but the research does not support this premise. Taijutsu is practiced by the Bujinkan, AKBAN and Genbukan. These 3 are all ninjutsu arts and practice the same curriculums with Yossie Sheriff of AKBAN teaching IDF top officers and commanders. There is a lot of politics in the Bujinkan and a lot of people get tired of it. Easy to criticize the Bujinkan but Taijutsu forms the basis of ninjutsu is found in many martial arts and a valid combat system. So if we really want to do some real critique on the Bujinkan we must first look at the basis of it - Taijutsu.


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## dunc (Jul 28, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> Yes this is correct Sean Askew has done a lot of research work recently on the lineage of the Bujinkan and has documented it in his book -  Hidden Lineage The Ninja of the Toda clan.
> Hidden Lineage: The Ninja of the Toda Clan eBook : Askew, Sean: Amazon.com.au: Kindle Store
> The lineage may be disputed by some but the research does not support this premise. Taijutsu is practiced by the Bujinkan, AKBAN and Genbukan. These 3 are all ninjutsu arts and practice the same curriculums with Yossie Sheriff of AKBAN teaching IDF top officers and commanders. There is a lot of politics in the Bujinkan and a lot of people get tired of it. Easy to criticize the Bujinkan but Taijutsu forms the basis of ninjutsu is found in many martial arts and a valid combat system. So if we really want to do some real critique on the Bujinkan we must first look at the basis of it - Taijutsu.


Agree with your points about the history/lineage
Although I don't think Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a ninjutsu art. It is the study of budo and the movements contained within budo (aka taijutsu)


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## Nigel (Jul 28, 2021)

dunc said:


> Agree with your points about the history/lineage
> Although I don't think Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a ninjutsu art. It is the study of budo and the movements contained within budo (aka taijutsu)


What is your definition of Ninjutsu?

The essence of ninjutsu is to endure, to survive and to prevail against all odds. No, ninjutsu today doesn’t delve into spying, espionage or smoke bombs, it has evolved for the modern world. That is what ninjutsu is. The ninja of old were spys and assassins for the purpose of overcoming oppression.

Todays world is vastly different to that of the feudal times of Japan. Ninjutsu today still teaches the samurai arts, spiritual refinement, armed and unarmed combat, stealth and water training, military strategy and weapons training related to the shinobi and taijutsu is part of that.

Ninjutsu is the ability to change, persevere, be patient and to endure. That has not changed. It is a “way” of attaining what we need whilst making the world a better place. This is Ninjutsu – always has been.

It is not a sport where you compete for points.

Taijustu is most definitely part of ninjutsu. It comes from one of the 9 ryuha - Togakure ryu.


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## Steve (Jul 28, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> What is your definition of Ninjutsu?
> 
> The essence of ninjutsu is to endure, to survive and to prevail against all odds. No, ninjutsu today doesn’t delve into spying, espionage or smoke bombs, it has evolved for the modern world. That is what ninjutsu is. The ninja of old were spys and assassins for the purpose of overcoming oppression.
> 
> ...


Ninjutsu is a samurai art?  Cool.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 28, 2021)

Steve said:


> Ninjutsu is a samurai art?  Cool.


Many years ago, there was a Ninjutsu school in town. Their school ad was:

It's a Shaolin temple Korean MA Ninjutsu system (Chinese MA + Korean MA + Japanese MA).

I had sparring with the instructor in the park (I was challenged). I expected the challenger would vanished into the thin air during sparring. It didn't happen. I felt like just to spar with an average Karate person.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had sparring with the instructor in the park (I was challenged). I expected the challenger would vanished into the thin air during sparring. It didn't happen. I felt like just to spar with an average Karate person.



And that brings us to the question that I'm surprised no one has asked yet: where's the Bujinkan in the UFC, Bellator, etc?

A quick Google search only brings up Scott Morris and Steve Jennum: both of whom competed in the UFC over 25 years ago, and weren't successful.  No Bujinkan practitioner - successful or not - appears to have competed professionally since then.


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## Steve (Jul 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> And that brings us to the question that I'm surprised no one has asked yet: where's the Bujinkan in the UFC, Bellator, etc?
> 
> A quick Google search only brings up Scott Morris and Steve Jennum: both of whom competed in the UFC over 25 years ago, and weren't successful.  No Bujinkan practitioner - successful or not - appears to have competed professionally since then.


Bujinkan isn't about fighting.  It's about moxy and cool outfits.


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## Nigel (Jul 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> And that brings us to the question that I'm surprised no one has asked yet: where's the Bujinkan in the UFC, Bellator, etc?
> 
> A quick Google search only brings up Scott Morris and Steve Jennum: both of whom competed in the UFC over 25 years ago, and weren't successful.  No Bujinkan practitioner - successful or not - appears to have competed professionally since then.


Taijutsu was born from the times of feudal Japan where even the ninja wore armor. Bujinkan teach classical taijutsu – meaning that a lot of the basics are meant for fighting someone with armor. It doesn’t translate into street fighting in the classical form and there are a lot of schools that only teach the classical forms – not all.

It takes many years of training before you learn to adapt those classical forms into “real life” situations. Many years and by that time I think most people have outgrown the urges of proving something.

That being said, Bujinkan is not a sport. The focus is not on competition but being the best that _you_ can be, its not a competition.

Not sure what your point is but not competing in the UFC or Bellator doesn’t make the art invalid. Is that really what you are suggesting?


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## dunc (Jul 29, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> What is your definition of Ninjutsu?
> 
> The essence of ninjutsu is to endure, to survive and to prevail against all odds. No, ninjutsu today doesn’t delve into spying, espionage or smoke bombs, it has evolved for the modern world. That is what ninjutsu is. The ninja of old were spys and assassins for the purpose of overcoming oppression.
> 
> ...


Hi
I agree that you can define ninjutsu in many ways, I would use the term Ninpo for the concept you describe
However, the art we study and each of the schools transmitted in do not use the term ninjutsu to define themselves
In the west folk tend to use the term ninjutsu to describe Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (the martial art style) and that is a source of a lot of confusion because many people think of ninjutsu as sneaking about wearing black masks and poisoning people
Taijutsu, like Jujutsu is a generic term used to describe a broad concept
The term is used in many of the schools, not just Togakure Ryu, and it really means body movement or skills. He has good taijutsu = he has good movement
Hope this helps


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## Nigel (Jul 29, 2021)

dunc said:


> Hi
> I agree that you can define ninjutsu in many ways, I would use the term Ninpo for the concept you describe
> However, the art we study and each of the schools transmitted in do not use the term ninjutsu to define themselves
> In the west folk tend to use the term ninjutsu to describe Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (the martial art style) and that is a source of a lot of confusion because many people think of ninjutsu as sneaking about wearing black masks and poisoning people
> ...


Ok so we are really debating terms now? Not the effectiveness of the art (which is the topic of this thread)? Call it what you want.....it is what it is. How can any rational person think that ninjutsu in todays society is still people sneaking about wearing black masks and poisoning people. Come on! Really?


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## dunc (Jul 29, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> Ok so we are really debating terms now? Not the effectiveness of the art (which is the topic of this thread)? Call it what you want.....it is what it is. How can any rational person think that ninjutsu in todays society is still people sneaking about wearing black masks and poisoning people. Come on! Really?


Yeah fair enough
But unfortunately there are a lot of people who think just that - including, it would seem, contributors to this thread and several of the more vocal critics of the art - and unfortunately using the term tends to feed the misperceptions of what we do


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.
> 
> What next?  A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?


If they offered to actually train for movie ninja skills, I'd be there.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 29, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> That being said, Bujinkan is not a sport. The focus is not on competition but being the best that _you_ can be, its not a competition.



The same can be said of all eastern TMA.  But considering the fact that UFC and Bellator do not require sanctioning from TMA organizations, Bujinkan practitioners are as free to compete as are practitioners of other martial arts.  The fact that it's not happening should raise questions.



> Not sure what your point is but not competing in the UFC or Bellator doesn’t make the art invalid. Is that really what you are suggesting?



Yes.  Remember: perception is reality.  It could literally be the most effective martial art in the world, but if people don't see it being put to the test, then the perception is going to be that it can't hang with the other arts that are represented in the UFC and Bellator.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 29, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Here's the big elephant in the room:  if Bunjinkan/modern ninjutsu, whatever, has an unbroken lineage going to back to the 16th century, well, first off, I want to see some photographs of their dojos from the late 19th/early 20th century.  Hell, I might be satisfied with one that was taken at any time before the release of _You Only Live Twice_.  I'm sure they'll say that it was practiced in secret until then, which they know everyone will laugh off.
> 
> Okay, but that's not the big elephant that I'm talking about; it's this.  If the lineage is unbroken and goes back to the 16th century, then how do they explain the immediate and widespread popularity of karate in Japan upon the annexation of Okinawa?  Surely, if Japan already had this perfectly fine striking/hybrid art - which is arguably way "cooler" than karate - the Japanese would have no reason to take interest in karate, right?



God those photos of samurai are weird. 

It doesnt have one, the wikipedia page i posted has citations for 3 issues where bujikan makes contracitory linege claims.   Apart from the fact its fair to say nijustsu doesnt exist, the founder of bujikans experience in the styles he has done is questioned heavily. 

im just going to say, no one would care if you sold your thing as "martially themed dance" its the fact "martiallly themed dance" is sold as actual fighting skills and to keep you alive and if you ever need to use them it can result in your death, this is very serious stuff. 

Addendum: the last "ninjutsu" master, died, didnt name a successor and had his post as in charge of a ninja musuem, so definately economic and political reasons to keep it alive irrelivent of truth.    that and i dont think they let people freely read the ninja scrolls or what ever its called. 

i forget if he was in charge of a musuem itself, or a musuem awarded him the position at some point, something like that, there is some commercial intrest involved. 


Also, japanese martial history is as varied as any countries, there are offical schools then there is just "fighting" people did.   they have a word for fighting, if you didnt go to a school or do a specfic style say Jujutsu, you were just "fighting".   Translation issues as well.   (jujutsu is argubly a hybrid striking/grappiling pending specfic school of)


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## dunc (Jul 29, 2021)

Rat said:


> God those photos of samurai are weird.
> 
> It doesnt have one, the wikipedia page i posted has citations for 3 issues where bujikan makes contracitory linege claims.   Apart from the fact its fair to say nijustsu doesnt exist, the founder of bujikans experience in the styles he has done is questioned heavily.



Hi Rat
The lineages are documented and the connection to Iga has been researched - see my earlier post
I think that if you are to post authoritatively on subjects like this then you should do us the courtesy to read more broadly than wikipedia
The wiki page clearly needs updating...



Rat said:


> im just going to say, no one would care if you sold your thing as "martially themed dance" its the fact "martiallly themed dance" is sold as actual fighting skills and to keep you alive and if you ever need to use them it can result in your death, this is very serious stuff.



The point about marketing any art or dojo as offering self defence applies to all arts. Including combat sports



Rat said:


> Addendum: the last "ninjutsu" master, died, didnt name a successor and had his post as in charge of a ninja musuem, so definately economic and political reasons to keep it alive irrelivent of truth.    that and i dont think they let people freely read the ninja scrolls or what ever its called.
> 
> i forget if he was in charge of a musuem itself, or a musuem awarded him the position at some point, something like that, there is some commercial intrest involved.



Several people have claimed to be the last ninja
Dunno why you would take the word of one of them when there is significantly more evidence to suggest that there are several lineages that include ninjutsu (including several very well documented ryuha)



Rat said:


> Also, japanese martial history is as varied as any countries, there are offical schools then there is just "fighting" people did.   they have a word for fighting, if you didnt go to a school or do a specfic style say Jujutsu, you were just "fighting".   Translation issues as well.   (jujutsu is argubly a hybrid striking/grappiling pending specfic school of)


Yes I agree with this - some schools were codified, others oral, some came into being because their founder trained with lots of different masters


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 29, 2021)

dunc said:


> The lineages are documented and the connection to Iga has been researched - see my earlier post
> I think that if you are to post authoritatively on subjects like this then you should do us the courtesy to read more broadly than wikipedia
> The wiki page clearly needs updating...


Sources.   Im not going to belive Bujikan pages, and the Wikiedpia article seems fair on it and listed the disputed claims as known with evidence. 




dunc said:


> The point about marketing any art or dojo as offering self defence applies to all arts. Including combat sports


Seeprate points, self defece is its own thing, but i never said others dont do this, the thread is about Bujikan and to a lesser degree its stated influences.  




dunc said:


> Several people have claimed to be the last ninja
> Dunno why you would take the word of one of them when there is significantly more evidence to suggest that there are several lineages that include ninjutsu (including several very well documented ryuha)


There may be.   but there is still no "ninjutsu", the sources backing it up ar edubious and there is greater economic intrest around it to have a monetary reason for keeping a lie.  

The schools like say Kenjutsu etc arent really in dispute, they do exist, and case by case for the claimed linege if it can be tracked, back.   Got pulled away had to cut this short.


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## Steve (Jul 29, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> That being said, Bujinkan is not a sport. The focus is not on competition but being the best that _you_ can be, its not a competition.


I really don't think you understand what sport is all about.  It is entirely about being the best you can be.


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## drop bear (Jul 29, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> Ok so we are really debating terms now? Not the effectiveness of the art (which is the topic of this thread)? Call it what you want.....it is what it is. How can any rational person think that ninjutsu in todays society is still people sneaking about wearing black masks and poisoning people. Come on! Really?



Is there anything to suggest the art is effective?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Is there anything to suggest the art is effective?


I like the way they walk (same side arm and leg move forward) and run (hands on the waist) 9.25 - 11.20.

He can dislocate his shoulder and put back himself. That's amazing skill.12.10 - 12.20.


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## Steve (Jul 29, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If they offered to actually train for movie ninja skills, I'd be there.


That's just parkour.  And the great thing about parkour is that you actually get to jump off of things, flip over things, and develop your expertise in unnecessary flourish.  You won't be able to fly, but you will definitely learn the art of falling with style.


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## Steve (Jul 29, 2021)

Real ninja.


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## Nigel (Jul 30, 2021)




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## dunc (Jul 30, 2021)

Rat said:


> Sources.   Im not going to belive Bujikan pages, and the Wikiedpia article seems fair on it and listed the disputed claims as known with evidence.



Hi

Sources for ninjutsu (books you can read &/or google):
General history of ninja etc - probably easiest to go to Stephan Turnbull in english language. He's a British historian who specialises in Japanese history. Not perfect and incomplete, but a good overview of the history
Other surviving lineages that include ninjutsu - best and most prominent example is the Katori Shinto Ryu (famous school with a very long history), also Kukishinden has a lot of the mystical elements within it (again famous school with a very long history)
History of the Bujinkan related arts - Dr Kacem Zoughari, Phd in Japanese studies and professor at the University of Tokyo (specialising in the history of Japanese martial arts)
Bujinkan connection from the past to today - Sean Askew (he has a book, but has also been sharing a lot of his findings openly on social media)
I'm no expert, just an interested hobbyist, but if you want to chat about any of these I'd be very happy to (maybe another thread)

The sources for the other schools in the Bujinkan (which make up the vast majority of the curriculum) are fairly easy to find online by just googling the school names and the Wikipedia page you refer to has the publications listed out there



Rat said:


> Seeprate points, self defece is its own thing, but i never said others dont do this, the thread is about Bujikan and to a lesser degree its stated influences.



In my view the effectiveness of the art (any art) is a combination of the individual, the curriculum and the training methods
The curriculum provides excellent techniques for fighting (as well as some not-so-useful-nowadays techniques)
The training methods are very variable from one dojo to another - this is an unfortunate reality that, in my view, results in our inconsistent reputation amongst folks on here
One of the most senior teacher's in the UK, Peter King, has posted about this on his facebook page. He was a police officer in one of the most violent parts of London for 30 years and has a medal from the queen for taking a machete off someone
Back in the day a few Bujinkan folk did compete in MMA - one example is online here - 



But they are few and far between and to be honest if you want to compete in MMA then you'll be more successful studying MMA than Bujinkan (very limited ground work in Bujinkan, gloves screw up a lot of the techniques etc etc)



Rat said:


> There may be.   but there is still no "ninjutsu", the sources backing it up ar edubious and there is greater economic intrest around it to have a monetary reason for keeping a lie.
> 
> The schools like say Kenjutsu etc arent really in dispute, they do exist, and case by case for the claimed linege if it can be tracked, back.   Got pulled away had to cut this short.



Not sure what you mean schools like kenjutsu, but if you mean the more mainstream traditional schools, then I agree they are not really in dispute, but pointing out that they form the vast majority of the Bujinkan's curriculum


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 30, 2021)

dunc said:


> In my view the effectiveness of the art (any art) is a combination of the individual, the curriculum and the training methods
> The curriculum provides excellent techniques for fighting (as well as some not-so-useful-nowadays techniques)
> The training methods are very variable from one dojo to another - this is an unfortunate reality that, in my view, results in our inconsistent reputation amongst folks on here
> One of the most senior teacher's in the UK, Peter King, has posted about this on his facebook page. He was a police officer in one of the most violent parts of London for 30 years and has a medal from the queen for taking a machete off someone
> Back in the day a few Bujinkan folk did compete in MMA - one example is online here - But they are few and far between and to be honest if you want to compete in MMA then you'll be more successful studying MMA than Bujinkan (very limited ground work in Bujinkan, gloves screw up a lot of the techniques etc etc)


Case and point bujikan had a ninja phase and used that to try and sell itself until ninjas got mocked to high hell and back.   

Effectiveness is one thing, how you sell it is another.     If you sell anything as a martial art there needs to be some, and at least good martial application. (which can be quntifiblae and objective)

Then you just lay down criteria and create something that meets your criteria. (marketings relation i will get to)  the criteria can be wrong, thus the martial art is bad.   but if it meets all its crtieria its not bad in a implimentation way, just it was made for things that dont happen.   
I dont know the wording to distingish between something poorly designed or just wrongly implimented.  For example, if you included hip throws for a boxing school, thats just wrong and pointless for boxing, yet the hip throws could be taught right and work. 

Onto marketing, if you shove say self defence on it, you NEED to provide the education you say you do by shoving self defence on it.   If you claim your art is for "street fighting" then it MUST work outside of comptetiton and sterile enviroements, and must be competitive to be called good.      If you sold it more as "tradtionally techniques of the X" and there was no implied* it working well or being designed for modernity etc then i can get it. (although a punch is a punch, thats as far as i think HEMA and other historical arts work, if you get your hands on say a longsword your good to use it if you need to, and a punch is a punch)

*some people do try to sell these as modern martial arts that work, or imply they do, sort of in the realm of my bracketed point, i dont have a issue with the logic a punch is a punch, but some go over that.   Without examples cant be specfic but i think that gets my point across.       although the logic of learning to use what you have is also present, so if you plan on using a Katana, well Kendos a sport, so some other system may be for you.    Thin line is all i can say, id need to break down a specfic system and keep it case by case. 

the bulk of complaint is as i said, martially inspired dance is sold as a martial art, in other words something thats not fighting is sold as techniques FOR fighting     (this is from reasonable people who understand the diffrent dimensions and some about hisotrical preservation etc)


You are going to suck in MMA unless you do MMA, nothing is MMA apart from MMA.  Your going to suck if you are a sprinter and try to do distance running, or vice versa.      But the fact is, the tradtional combat sports of Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo, MMA etc, seem to work pretty well outside of their respective sports, so that at least speaks to their training methods/content of the sports.  

i dont think enough information is had to put the tradtional japanese training methods in comparision with the modern sport ones. although how the same arts did it back in the day is diffrent to how they do it now, as far as i recall pretty much all jujutsu schools did free sparring, and actually properly fought each other as routine. (i may start a thread on that)

Addendum: We also have to assess what the teacher has done and what he teaches you, like he could be fairly good at fighting, but not teach you half of what he actually knows that he picked up from say 4 diffrent styles.    Like some people do other styles and dont teach the other ones they do yet still practise them, and that influences them and their ability(not yours).   It would be like being a black belt in Judo, teach boxing and because you were able to pin somone means boxing is vaible in judo, no it means the person who has done judo is viable in judo. 

Addressing the machete point, many constables have disarmed people, many have died doing it, and this is a very varied martial arts experience.     Id need to see some footage to assess if it was luck, his ability or the persons inability.   there are many biases that surround here, confirmation trhough survivour bias is a big one.   ie this worked before so should work, while ignoring the opponent was just severaly undermatched, or screwed up many times.      I dont think Bujikan would have addressed how to use a baton, taser or OC spray though, or how to restrain somone in the manner policy dictates, so that probbly came from his police training.   (another complaint, these things exist yet martial arts skirt around them for legal reasons, lest they be accused of paramilitary training, at least one reason or not wanting the politics of weapons control brought up)

That sort of ties in with the above, but i sort of clinged to one general point instead of the specifics, and dont want to have to rewrite this or spend a hour, im dropping the ninjutsu argument though as its sort of besides the point, i have put enough across to show its disputed. 



thats my thought process anyway, but if the teacher has done judo, and is good at it, it doesnt mean he is teaching you judo.  Case and point i think one of my TKD teachers did Judo, so it would be used if he ever fought (pending retention) but he didnt teach judo, so he could whoop you in a grappling match potetionally but hes not teaching you to do it.     That doesnt invalidate the complaints of lack of grappling in TKD or TKD is not built for it, or does it.  It isnt and doesnt.    See i am at least trying to be crticial here, you can say many things, this not being thought out isnt one of them.


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## dunc (Jul 30, 2021)

Hi
Long post - will try and reply later
Worth noting that The Bujinkan used to be called Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu
The name changed way back in the 90s (from memory) and probably in response to how many westerners were marketing the art
So I think Hatsumi was telling everyone to stop doing all that stupid Steven Hayes (made up) stuff that was so popular at the time


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2021)

dunc said:


> Hi
> Long post - will try and reply later
> Worth noting that The Bujinkan used to be called Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu
> The name changed way back in the 90s (from memory) and probably in response to how many westerners were marketing the art
> So I think Hatsumi was telling everyone to stop doing all that stupid Steven Hayes (made up) stuff that was so popular at the time



I know next to nothing about the subject so have been reading with interest and a lot of confusion. I get the impression that there's two different subjects being discussed here? A genuine art and a fantasy one and posters are confusing the two? I keep waiting for @Chris Parker ! I may have to say his name twice more though.......


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 30, 2021)

dunc said:


> But they are few and far between and to be honest if you want to compete in MMA then you'll be more successful studying MMA than Bujinkan (very limited ground work in Bujinkan, *gloves screw up a lot of the techniques* etc etc)


This is right up there with "our techniques are too deadly for MMA."


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## dunc (Jul 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> This is right up there with "our techniques are too deadly for MMA."


Really? You don't think gloves change things for grappling and striking?


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 30, 2021)

dunc said:


> Really? You don't think gloves change things for grappling and striking?


Yes, but you're saying this as if it's true for Bujinkan in a different or more profound way than for other arts.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yes, but you're saying this as if it's true for Bujinkan in a different or more profound way than for other arts.


It sort of does... gloves affect small joint manipulation much more than they do large joint. So any art that uses a lot of small joint manipulations will find it more difficult to compete than one that uses a lot of large joint manipulations.
I don't know what the Bujinkan teaches or stresses, just pointing out that specifics do matter.


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## dunc (Jul 30, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yes, but you're saying this as if it's true for Bujinkan in a different or more profound way than for other arts.


No sorry if I gave that impression
My point was that if an art has a bunch of techniques & tactics etc that aren’t appropriate for MMA and doesn’t have much ground fighting then it’s not fit for that purpose
If you want to compete at MMA then do MMA as it’s pretty well evolved to optimise for that context, ruleset etc


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## Steve (Jul 30, 2021)

What is bujinkan optimized for?


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## dunc (Jul 30, 2021)

Steve said:


> What is bujinkan optimized for?


I’d say passing on the lessons (mindset and movements) from its history


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## Steve (Jul 30, 2021)

dunc said:


> I’d say passing on the lessons (mindset and movements) from its history


That sounds fair to me.  Cultural preservation is a terrific reason to do things.  One might argue that HEMA isn't very practical, but it's still pretty cool.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2021)

Steve said:


> That sounds fair to me.  Cultural preservation is a terrific reason to do things.  One might argue that HEMA isn't very practical, but it's still pretty cool.



Is HEMA accurate?

I mean I assume there is nobody learning to be a peasant for example. 

Which still doesn't necessarily matter. As an inaccurate example still has merit. It is why we have myths.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Is HEMA accurate?


To varying degrees. How accurate will vary from group to group and person to person.


drop bear said:


> I mean I assume there is nobody learning to be a peasant for example.


What does that have to do with HEMA? HEMA is basically about combat based on the weapons of a given time and place.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> To varying degrees. How accurate will vary from group to group and person to person.
> 
> What does that have to do with HEMA? HEMA is basically about combat based on the weapons of a given time and place.



So hema isn't about cultural preservation.
And more about a story.


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## drop bear (Jul 30, 2021)

dunc said:


> But they are few and far between and to be honest if you want to compete in MMA then you'll be more successful studying MMA than Bujinkan (very limited ground work in Bujinkan, gloves screw up a lot of the techniques etc etc)



There is a set of MMA ground work that comes from folk wrestling and apparently Sambo. Which is a much more self defence focused meta.






So this idea that an overly complex submission style of grappling is the only way to be successful at MMA is not exactly accurate.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> So hema isn't about cultural preservation.
> And more about a story.


It's different things to different people. Just like other martial arts groups.


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## Nigel (Jul 30, 2021)

Any martial art should be much more than beating someone in the octagon. the benefits of any training include physical and mental health, flexibility, and fitness.

Tai Chi when sped up is a fighting art, but its general purpose is for fitness and flexibility both in body and mind.

Ninjutsu is about winning despite the obstacles, The samurai and the shogunate held all the power, to openly resist them was to invite death, so the ninja used stealth to fight back.

Its not always about punches, kicks, and throws, sometimes winning is in evasion, stealth and when you must fight, doing so in a way that gives you the space you need to escape and survive.

Avoiding a fight is just as valid a winning tactic as beating someone up, and with the potential legal battle that often follows a fight, is the better path for everyone.

In a world of CCTV cameras everywhere making any damage you do look like an accident can be important in the big picture, knowledge of body mechanics and leverage comes into play here.

For me Ninjutsu is much more than how to punch or break a bone, its about winning despite the odds, winning takes many forms and changes from situation to situation. Sometimes winning is getting away with no one being hurt, sometimes its bluffing your way out of a fight, or making the aggressor decide not to prosecute their anger on the street and in the courts.

Physical fitness, situational awareness, a large selection of tactical options to choose from in any given situation, including not being caught either by the opponent or the law, these are as important to me as beating someone in a fist fight. MMA and the like are for the young with something to prove. Ninjutsu is a way of life and is for life.


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## drop bear (Jul 31, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's different things to different people. Just like other martial arts groups.



You are the one setting the goal posts.


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## dunc (Jul 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is a set of MMA ground work that comes from folk wrestling and apparently Sambo. Which is a much more self defence focused meta.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi
Apologies if I gave the impression that I thought that one needed an overly complex submission grappling style to be successful in MMA
I totally agree with your point and was simply stating that the Bujinkan doesn’t cover ground work enough to be successful in the MMA format


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## dunc (Jul 31, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> Any martial art should be much more than beating someone in the octagon. the benefits of any training include physical and mental health, flexibility, and fitness.


I agree and feel this is an extremely important point when considering the Bujinkan
A key part of our tradition / transmission is the mindset or approach to life (hence the “do” of Budo or “po” in ninpo )
In many ways I feel this is the most valuable part of Hatsumi-sensei has been teaching. It’s helped me in my career, in coping with tragedy, in 



Elninjo said:


> Tai Chi when sped up is a fighting art, but its general purpose is for fitness and flexibility both in body and mind.
> 
> 
> Ninjutsu is about winning despite the obstacles, The samurai and the shogunate held all the power, to openly resist them was to invite death, so the ninja used stealth to fight back.


I think you should check out the history references I shared earlier
The narrative of the establishment (samurai) vs the rebels (ninja) is not really reflective of the history (other than that whole Oda family thing)
The folks in Iga (where some of our traditions originate) were a little on the fringes and had a lot of exiles and people from the losing side of history end up there which influenced how the traditions developed 


Elninjo said:


> Its not always about punches, kicks, and throws, sometimes winning is in evasion, stealth and when you must fight, doing so in a way that gives you the space you need to escape and survive.
> 
> Avoiding a fight is just as valid a winning tactic as beating someone up, and with the potential legal battle that often follows a fight, is the better path for everyone.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree with this 
I tend to think of our art as teaching how to “survive against the odds” (a personal definition, not one I’ve heard Soke or the Japanese shihan use)


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## Nigel (Jul 31, 2021)

dunc said:


> I think you should check out the history references I shared earlier
> The narrative of the establishment (samurai) vs the rebels (ninja) is not really reflective of the history (other than that whole Oda family thing)
> The folks in Iga (where some of our traditions originate) were a little on the fringes and had a lot of exiles and people from the losing side of history end up there which influenced how the traditions developed


The ninja and the samurai were indeed collaborators, however on certain occasion they did fight each other. In the 1400's the Iga and Koga Ninjas worked together to fight against the Shogun when the Rokkaku clan of Iga was being attacked. During the Tensho-Iga wars in 1581 the ninja clans were devastated by the samurai.  

The ninja were essentially mercenaries and after that time the Samurai started using the ninja as mercenaries and sometimes the samurai were ninja. Samurai had a strict code (bushido) they had to adhere to so when they could not execute their required task under bushido they would become the ninja.


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## dunc (Jul 31, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> The ninja and the samurai were indeed collaborators, however on certain occasion they did fight each other. In the 1400's the Iga and Koga Ninjas worked together to fight against the Shogun when the Rokkaku clan of Iga was being attacked. During the Tensho-Iga wars in 1581 the ninja clans were devastated by the samurai.
> 
> The ninja were essentially mercenaries and after that time the Samurai started using the ninja as mercenaries and sometimes the samurai were ninja. Samurai had a strict code (bushido) they had to adhere to so when they could not execute their required task under bushido they would become the ninja.


Hi
I think you’ll find if you research the history a bit you may widen your perspective, but the subject is a bit off topic and there are better places to explore the history than here (and I don’t have any deep or special knowledge on the subject TBH)


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## BrendanF (Jul 31, 2021)

Elninjo said:


> so when they could not execute their required task under bushido they would become the ninja.


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## dunc (Jul 31, 2021)

FWIW I had a fascinating discussion with a Japanese mentor of mine who said that whilst there was often a thread of ethics, loyalty etc contained in budo his research suggested that in many ways Bushido was an invention during peace time to control the warriors and make sure they didn’t get any bright ideas that might upset the order of things


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

Addendum to my post.

It does annoy me when somone say does 4 diffrent styles, and teaches one and act slike that one is the only one that has influenced them, ALL of them would have.    It always annoys me when say a black belt in 4 styles wants to say how good this one they teach is coming from the experts podiuem and probbly did the other 3 to fill in the gaps.

thats one of the issues i have, or they did this and dont really encourage cross training.   Some of the issues from martial arts come from people conflating personal experience, with what would be taught in their system, or conflating what they (at the end) learns compared to somone at the beggining or middle. (i suppose could call that elitism)

Sort of tag this onto my boxing point,  If somone acts like boxing teaches grappling or uses that yo advertise boxing despite grappling not being taught, its sort of bad.  Or if they mix up personal expereince with whats actually taught or present in both.

Actually i think there is a lot of this, only becoems a issue if they frown on cross training or act like the answers are there when they arent.




Dirty Dog said:


> It's different things to different people. Just like other martial arts groups.


I have to say by definition its about what drop bear said, the preservation of (and by extension reconstruction of) hisotrical european martial arts.    There is a whole subset argument about if they should be deemed preservative so restrictive or like a normal martial art(devoloping your own "style"), but i think the bulk tend to stay in the middle.  you learn your own style through historical techniques like somone learning it in the time would.    that and since the lineges died it will never truely be fully hisotrical, you will have some flair picked up in other martial arts you are using as the base to reconstruct it. 

But that would depend where, id argue and say if you want a true martial art one about hisotrical preservation and is literally named as such is probbly not for you, same with if you want it for modern use.   Unless of course a longsword or other weapon taught in it is a weapon you plan on using or you have access to and wish to learn how to use.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> I have to say by definition its about what drop bear said, the preservation of (and by extension reconstruction of) hisotrical european martial arts.


But you don't actually have any real training or experience in HEMA, so your opinion doesn't carry much weight.
It's rarely, if ever, sensible to try to tell other people why they participate in a given activity.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> But you don't actually have any real training or experience in HEMA, so your opinion doesn't carry much weight.
> It's rarely, if ever, sensible to try to tell other people why they participate in a given activity.


Do i need it to make the argument?   If your nothing like the namesake you should change the name and might as well not affiliate or call yourself HEMA.   Like battle of nations isnt "hema".   540 kicks being in Meyer longsword when? (exactly)

Names matter is all i can really say.   What you call yourself, affiliate with etc, matters and has some bearing.

(and i have actually seen several persons opinion in this matter anyway so /shrug)


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## Flying Crane (Jul 31, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In my experience, the Bujinkan had plenty of reasonably sound fundamental techniques which seem to be in line with other historical Japanese systems I've seen footage of. The specifics might be a bit stylized compared to actual application, but I could believe that somebody at some point in the past actually used something like those techniques in a real fight, and many of them could be tweaked to have a reasonable modern application. Not all of them are high-percentage moves, but they could work given the right circumstances.
> 
> Then ... there are the moves which I would be willing to bet the entirety of my bank account that nobody in the history of human fighting has ever used in a real fight. Techniques which would only work if the opponent had a sudden stroke and became paralyzed in the middle of their movement. I have a strong suspicion that these techniques were not included in the historical lineages, but were created by current instructors showing off what they can do with overly compliant students who have been conditioned to feed slow-motion, incompetent attacks and then stand still with their arms outstretched while their teacher does whatever silly stuff occurs to them. Unfortunately this isn't just limited to some insufficiently trained individuals. I've seen techniques like that taught by Hatsumi and by other instructors holding high rank in the Bujinkan.


Interesting.  Ive experienced plenty of those things with other systems. I am starting to refer to them as “paper techniques.”  As in: they look good on paper, but unlikely to survive beyond contact.

really, this is the stuff that convinces me that many people over-complicate fighting. The simple, straight forward stuff is far more likely to work.  People need to know when to quit, when it comes to getting creative.  Creativity is important, but there are limits beyond which it just becomes dysfunctional and is creativity simply for its own sake.  That isn’t helpful.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yes, but you're saying this as if it's true for Bujinkan in a different or more profound way than for other arts.


Actually, no he didn't. He just said it messes with some techniques. And that's true of a lot of traditinoal small-joint manipulation. Most of them can still be done, but are either harder to get to or are easier to resist when wearing MMA gloves. Larger gloves make many of them impossible.

This is not a factor for systems that don't train much on small-joint manipulation (like Judo, for instance).


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, no he didn't. He just said it messes with some techniques. And that's true of a lot of traditinoal small-joint manipulation. Most of them can still be done, but are either harder to get to or are easier to resist when wearing MMA gloves. Larger gloves make many of them impossible.
> 
> This is not a factor for systems that don't train much on small-joint manipulation (like Judo, for instance).


Is Bujinkan heavy on small joint manipulation?

I don't know.  I do know that I've seen plenty of YouTube videos of Bujinkan practitioners sparring with other martials artists - I've seen Bujiunkan versus karate, judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and MMA - and Bujinkan appears to be primarily a striking art.  In fact, I can't recall any instances of Bujinkan guys even trying to grapple - not even against other grappling arts.

I'm open to the possibility that there are some nuances that I may have missed.

In life in general - not just martial arts - when someone focuses on why something won't work, rather than trying to find ways to make it work, what they say becomes that much more dubious.


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## drop bear (Jul 31, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Is Bujinkan heavy on small joint manipulation?
> 
> I don't know.  I do know that I've seen plenty of YouTube videos of Bujinkan practitioners sparring with other martials artists - I've seen Bujiunkan versus karate, judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and MMA - and Bujinkan appears to be primarily a striking art.  In fact, I can't recall any instances of Bujinkan guys even trying to grapple - not even against other grappling arts.
> 
> ...



It is unlikely they would do it in sparring anyway.

Start bending fingers in sparring. You get broken fingers.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Is Bujinkan heavy on small joint manipulation?
> 
> I don't know.  I do know that I've seen plenty of YouTube videos of Bujinkan practitioners sparring with other martials artists - I've seen Bujiunkan versus karate, judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and MMA - and Bujinkan appears to be primarily a striking art.  In fact, I can't recall any instances of Bujinkan guys even trying to grapple - not even against other grappling arts.
> 
> ...


I've only seen a bit of Budo Taijutsu, and it included some small-joint manipulation. The movement and basic approach suggested to me there was a significant use of it (folks who don't do small-joint stuff don't tend to like being out past the elbow much).

The problem with using something like MMA as a measuring stick (why doesn't X participate in MMA) is that it only takes a moderate disadvantage to make a system a poor choice for that competition. Folks who do reasonably well in MMA tend to be folks who focus their training on what works in MMA. Anything that's 80% as good in that context won't do very well (average competitor starting with a 20% disadvantage), and isn't likely to get anyone to a level any of us would ever see.


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## drop bear (Jul 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I've only seen a bit of Budo Taijutsu, and it included some small-joint manipulation. The movement and basic approach suggested to me there was a significant use of it (folks who don't do small-joint stuff don't tend to like being out past the elbow much).
> 
> The problem with using something like MMA as a measuring stick (why doesn't X participate in MMA) is that it only takes a moderate disadvantage to make a system a poor choice for that competition. Folks who do reasonably well in MMA tend to be folks who focus their training on what works in MMA. Anything that's 80% as good in that context won't do very well (average competitor starting with a 20% disadvantage), and isn't likely to get anyone to a level any of us would ever see.



Not really. Bjj guard play doesn't do well for gnp. Muay thai stances are not good defending take downs, boxing head movement is susceptible to kicks, wrestlers give up their backs to submissions.

And yet they manage.

All the core principles of MMA make these other principles more successful. If you ever want to get to a point you can use small joint manipulation You have to control the fight up to that point.

You have to dodge their punches, avoid their take downs, clinch in a manner that isolates that small joint.

Then you can attack with whatever specialisation you like.

It is not gloves that are really preventing someone from putting a wrist lock on a guy. It is the fact gloves let the other guy belt you hard enough that it becomes a very difficult task. Especially if you don't have those core skills.

This is dan Kelly doing judo without a gi.






Which he does at the highest level without the advantage of grips while someone is trying to punch him.

I mean I'd you want to talk about giving up style advantage. That is a pretty big step.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Not really. Bjj guard play doesn't do well for gnp. Muay thai stances are not good defending take downs, boxing head movement is susceptible to kicks, wrestlers give up their backs to submissions.
> 
> And yet they manage.
> 
> ...


I pretty much agree with that. I don’t think any of that is counter to anything I said. As for small joint manipulation, I’ve never seen it used much in MMA. This, a system that has much focus on that is spending time on something not much use in MMA. That’s an immediate disadvantage.


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## drop bear (Jul 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I pretty much agree with that. I don’t think any of that is counter to anything I said. As for small joint manipulation, I’ve never seen it used much in MMA. This, a system that has much focus on that is spending time on something not much use in MMA. That’s an immediate disadvantage.



More than say a system that relies on a gi and doesn't include punching?


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## Flying Crane (Jul 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I've only seen a bit of Budo Taijutsu, and it included some small-joint manipulation. The movement and basic approach suggested to me there was a significant use of it (folks who don't do small-joint stuff don't tend to like being out past the elbow much).
> 
> The problem with using something like MMA as a measuring stick (why doesn't X participate in MMA) is that it only takes a moderate disadvantage to make a system a poor choice for that competition. Folks who do reasonably well in MMA tend to be folks who focus their training on what works in MMA. Anything that's 80% as good in that context won't do very well (average competitor starting with a 20% disadvantage), and isn't likely to get anyone to a level any of us would ever see.


Wait, you mean context matters?  Who woulda guessed.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 31, 2021)

Still is something to eb said how the tradtional combat sports of MT,Boxing, MMA, BJJ, Judo, Wrestling and some others seem to work well in their sport and taken out into "the streets" as opposed to some other things.      I dont really want to include TKD, well it as a sport doesnt work like the others so exeption, and if we consider it a martial art, its not included tradtionally anyway. (to be listed with MT, Bxing , Judo etc)


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## Steve (Jul 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Is HEMA accurate?
> 
> I mean I assume there is nobody learning to be a peasant for example.
> 
> Which still doesn't necessarily matter. As an inaccurate example still has merit. It is why we have myths.


No clue how accurate it is.  I don't think it needs to be, really.  Once you remove practical skill and results from the equation, things open up a lot.   When you aren't worried about whether it would work, you are just having fun and maybe getting some exercise.  
So if bujinkan is about culture, great. As long as folks who train in it know it's not about fighting, the stakes are super low.  No one will get hurt, and it can focus on the cool outfits and moxy, and no one gets hurt.


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## drop bear (Jul 31, 2021)

Steve said:


> No clue how accurate it is.  I don't think it needs to be, really.  Once you remove practical skill and results from the equation, things open up a lot.   When you aren't worried about whether it would work, you are just having fun and maybe getting some exercise.
> So if bujinkan is about culture, great. As long as folks who train in it know it's not about fighting, the stakes are super low.  No one will get hurt, and it can focus on the cool outfits and moxy, and no one gets hurt.


Yeah. You create a story. Which can still be important to development. 

I mean that is what religion ultimately does.


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## BrendanF (Aug 1, 2021)

Steve said:


> No clue how accurate it is.  I don't think it needs to be, really.  Once you remove practical skill and results from the equation, things open up a lot.   When you aren't worried about whether it would work, you are just having fun and maybe getting some exercise.
> So if bujinkan is about culture, great. As long as folks who train in it know it's not about fighting, the stakes are super low.  No one will get hurt, and it can focus on the cool outfits and moxy, and no one gets hurt.



And if the X-Kan arts were about a real culture, that would be fine.  The problem many serious Japanese martial artists have with them is that they are 'about' a theatrical myth, and are not in any way representative of any genuine historical practices.  Evading that truth has involved multiple personality and name changes over the years.


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## Steve (Aug 1, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> And if the X-Kan arts were about a real culture, that would be fine.  The problem many serious Japanese martial artists have with them is that they are 'about' a theatrical myth, and are not in any way representative of any genuine historical practices.  Evading that truth has involved multiple personality and name changes over the years.


My opinion is that this is a function of a bit of elitism and authenticity.  No art today is fully authentic to history, if for no other reason than that we don't apply the art in it's historical context.  Some are simply more or less authentic.  

If effective technique that teaches practical skill is the priority, then questions of authenticity are (at most) secondary.  The culture of the style evolves and no big deal.  

If practical skill is deprioritized, authenticity becomes very important.  It's central to otherwise unsubstantiated claims to be effective.  "My style works because ninja (or samurai, or spec ops, etc) used it, and my style is authentic!".   In reality, none are fully authentic , and so it's a matter of degrees.  

I've said similar things regarding styles that move away from their homeland.  Taking Japan out of a koryu art is similar to taking  fighting skill out of self defense.  You end up with a sales pitch.  

And to be clear, as long as folks know what they're getting, I am good.  I love going to the world showcase at Disney world.  But I also know it's not really authentic.  Enjoy things for what they really are and you'll be a lot happier.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> More than say a system that relies on a gi and doesn't include punching?


Hmm....perhaps more. Remember what I said earlier about the overall approach and movement suggesting to me they have a singificant amount of small joint manipulation? That's part of the system, and that basic movement/distancing wouldn't translate well to MMA. 

Judo's basic distancing for grappling works better there. And the systematic inclusion of competition provides a better base for learning to adapt - you're surrounded by folks who have worked out how to resist and how to apply against that resistance. So even with the dramatically different ruleset, a lot more of Judo translates.

BJJ (not sure which you meant in your post) also translates better, for most of the same reasons, and also because (unlike Judo) it is built to evolve, and has evolved from MMA experience.


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## Steve (Aug 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm....perhaps more. Remember what I said earlier about the overall approach and movement suggesting to me they have a singificant amount of small joint manipulation? That's part of the system, and that basic movement/distancing wouldn't translate well to MMA.
> 
> Judo's basic distancing for grappling works better there. And the systematic inclusion of competition provides a better base for learning to adapt - you're surrounded by folks who have worked out how to resist and how to apply against that resistance. So even with the dramatically different ruleset, a lot more of Judo translates.
> 
> BJJ (not sure which you meant in your post) also translates better, for most of the same reasons, and also because (unlike Judo) it is built to evolve, and has evolved from MMA experience.


Thing is, if a judoka wants to be more well rounded, he or she need only compete outside of the olympic judo ruleset.  The focus on developing skills to the exclusion of things outside of the rules is a weakness, only if you train for a single ruleset to the exclusion of all other skills.  And only if your goal is to be well rounded.

So, Muay Thai boxers who compete in Muay Thai develop expertise in all of the related skills that are helpful in that rule set.  When they want to move into MMA, they need to evolve... this forces them to develop expertise in new skills.  If they want to get into kickboxing, once again, they will be forced to adapt, which broadens their skillset.

In the same way, a BJJ or Judo player can expand their skillset by simply expanding their competitive base. 

And the stronger and more reliable one's skillset is, the more likely that person will be to transfer his or her skills from familiar contexts into unfamiliar contexts, like a street fight.  It will also make any training in that direction much more reliable.

Simply put, a ninja who wants to compete in any ruleset will have a much more difficult time than a person who competes who is fighting outside of their traditional ruleset.  The foundation for the ninja is questionable, at best, and so any discussion of transferring skills to foreign contexts is putting the cart before the horse.  If we're being honest, we can't really rely on performance within their primary context.  

And to circle back to earlier discussion, if being able to fight or defend oneself isn't the primary goal, no problem.  There are other reasons to train in a martial art.


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## punisher73 (Aug 2, 2021)

Steve said:


> My opinion is that this is a function of a bit of elitism and authenticity.  No art today is fully authentic to history, if for no other reason than that we don't apply the art in it's historical context.  Some are simply more or less authentic.
> 
> If effective technique that teaches practical skill is the priority, then questions of authenticity are (at most) secondary.  The culture of the style evolves and no big deal.
> 
> ...



I agree with this.  

Also, talking about "ninjutsu" as a fighting art you (generic you) have to look at its historical context.  Most of the "real ninjutsu" skills were spy tactics, avoiding detection etc.  Even their unarmed combat was based on how to avoid capture and get away.  It was NOT designed to "dual" with the other person like we would see in a sports combat setting.  So, its either "authentic" or its "updated for modern use" because in its context, it wasn't designed for that environment.  Please note, I am NOT saying it is "too deadly" for sport.  Just pointing out that it was designed for running away.  

IMHO this guy "gets it" when it comes to applying ninjutsu.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 2, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> Also, talking about "ninjutsu" as a fighting art you (generic you) have to look at its historical context.  Most of the "real ninjutsu" skills were spy tactics, avoiding detection etc.  Even their unarmed combat was based on how to avoid capture and get away.  It was NOT designed to "dual" with the other person like we would see in a sports combat setting.  So, its either "authentic" or its "updated for modern use" because in its context, it wasn't designed for that environment.  Please note, I am NOT saying it is "too deadly" for sport.  Just pointing out that it was designed for running away.
> 
> IMHO this guy "gets it" when it comes to applying ninjutsu.


Thats with the statement of, if it even existed to begin with or has any historcal or as deep hisotrical prescence as is claimed.

But yeah, its sort of bad to build a combat system off of something not for that and just self defence basically.    Talking and conflict management is a bigger skill needed, the ohysical skilsl will come off of that, so if your taling to a police man you stab them in the eye with a hidden weapon, stomp on them and/or run off if you cant talk your way out of getting arrested. 

The main issues i have as i have exapliend is the first point, and the fact they dont seem to teach proper skills in modernity.  Like there are modern proffessions that do "ninja" skills to varying degrees, you cant learn how to do these jobs by doing ninjutsu.    Case and point, do you learn lock picking, how to deal with compuers, CCTV, bledning in with other people?   Or do you just swing a obsolete weapon around while wearing something riddiculuse which breaks the grey man rules? 

Granted i think some legit dodgy oginsiations have used ninjutsu as  a base(/front), they tend to use martial arts and the like as a cover for learning some things, i cant think of any or if it was just the off handed claim of somone trying to impress somone else.   Its not a far flung thing and has been done (nothing says it cant), but i cant think of any using Ninjutsu specfically.


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## punisher73 (Aug 2, 2021)

Rat said:


> Thats with the statement of, if it even existed to begin with or has any historcal or as deep hisotrical prescence as is claimed.
> 
> But yeah, its sort of bad to build a combat system off of something not for that and just self defence basically.    Talking and conflict management is a bigger skill needed, the ohysical skilsl will come off of that, so if your taling to a police man you stab them in the eye with a hidden weapon, stomp on them and/or run off if you cant talk your way out of getting arrested.
> 
> ...


I think we are in agreement on that.  Based on the ninjutsu manuals, it dealt with the "modern things" of that time.  Most "ninja" schools still teach that historical stuff because of the "tradition" of it.  If you have a "modern ninjustsu" school, they would claim that it is not ninjutsu. LOL

Modern things that would teach "ninja skills" (again based on the historical texts we have):  Wilderness Survival/Prepper training, Military Special Ops, CIA Spy etc.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 2, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> I think we are in agreement on that.  Based on the ninjutsu manuals, it dealt with the "modern things" of that time.  Most "ninja" schools still teach that historical stuff because of the "tradition" of it.  If you have a "modern ninjustsu" school, they would claim that it is not ninjutsu. LOL
> 
> Modern things that would teach "ninja skills" (again based on the historical texts we have):  Wilderness Survival/Prepper training, Military Special Ops, CIA Spy etc.


My partial complaint is they act like its viable in modernity as well.   Hell the outfit is completely fake.  theyd basically never wear that, its the equal of walking around in camoflauge where you should be wearing a suit.    I dont even know if the "ninja" outfit has any hisotrical basis at all. 

In principle though it looks good, just the fact its doccumentation, hsiotry and existance is dubious and its implinetation of the dubiousness has sort of ruined the fun aspect of it.       Cant really argue about learning the skills, they have some use and pending your own intrests can very much be argued for both for fun and proffessionally in principle.   (by that i mean lockpicking in general not nesssisarily learning to pick japanese 1600's locks)


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## punisher73 (Aug 2, 2021)

Rat said:


> My partial complaint is they act like its viable in modernity as well.   Hell the outfit is completely fake.  theyd basically never wear that, its the equal of walking around in camoflauge where you should be wearing a suit.    I dont even know if the "ninja" outfit has any hisotrical basis at all.
> 
> In principle though it looks good, just the fact its doccumentation, hsiotry and existance is dubious and its implinetation of the dubiousness has sort of ruined the fun aspect of it.       Cant really argue about learning the skills, they have some use and pending your own intrests can very much be argued for both for fun and proffessionally in principle.   (by that i mean lockpicking in general not nesssisarily learning to pick japanese 1600's locks)


My understanding is the "ninja outfit" was from Japanese theater.  Certain persons would wear all black on stage to do certain things and not be seen.  As spies, they would have worn stuff to blend in with their mission.






Video of Stephen K. Hayes.  Shows how ninjutsu should be applied today.


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## Cynik75 (Aug 4, 2021)




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## Chris Parker (Aug 26, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I know next to nothing about the subject so have been reading with interest and a lot of confusion. I get the impression that there's two different subjects being discussed here? A genuine art and a fantasy one and posters are confusing the two? I keep waiting for @Chris Parker ! I may have to say his name twice more though.......



Hmm.... did you want me to get involved? I might just upset everyone.... especially with my current views... but, for the record, yes, Rokas was wrong, just not for the reasons he thinks. He was wrong for the same reasons he's been wrong about pretty much everything... which isn't to say he's not accurate in a number of points...


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## dramonis (Dec 2, 2022)

Rokas problem is:  *He wants to take the blame away from him and put it on something else. *
He never learned how to fight because he fears it. He adopts a zen lifestyle and seeks a black belt in a martial art to make up for his fear.
And when he had a moment when a real confrontation would happen, he lost his mind because he avoided fighting his entire life. 

Rokas is wrong simply because he doesn't understand fighting in general, I, a black belt in BJJ, enjoy using the tech of Bujinkan to cheat on championships not only Bujinkan but aikido as well. 
The point is to use you should have an understanding of what the Soke or Creator of the art had in mind and really try to use it in every opportunity you have. 

When you understand and know how to apply different techs,  it will not be apparent that you are using tech from another martial art.  For example, if you do a spinning kick from taekwondo in a kickboxing match and you are standing with a kickboxing base, how the hell the judge will know that you didn't use kickboxing?

Simply put Rokas's journey is not about which martial art is effective but is about a person facing his fears. I credit him for his courage, but he didn't learn how to assume his mistakes yet. This is great because he will need to be beaten and lose a lot of fights until having a step further and become a real fighter and humble his ego.  And in my opinion, being on youtube training sparring is not the same as going to championships or even street fighting, a thing that he still avoids.


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## Denoaikido (Dec 3, 2022)

I've personally done bujinkan/ninjitsu & this is after I've done many other arts and I can say that it can be effectively used in the right settings just as any other martial art


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## Cynik75 (Dec 3, 2022)

dramonis said:


> ... And in my opinion, being on youtube training sparring is not the same as going to championships or even street fighting, a thing that he still avoids.


MMA fights does not count?


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## dramonis (Dec 3, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> MMA fights does not count?


Does he go to a championship or was sparring with a friend being filmed to post on youtube?
cuz there is a huge difference btw fighting with someone that has the real intention of knocking you out and friendly sparring... 
in friendly sparring you want the punch to touch and show the opening, you want to do a submission that is less aggressive than a punch you control yourself when throwing the person to not hurt your partner so is a different dynamic. it can happen to get someone with bad intentions, yes it can but, in his videos, this is not shown. why won't go to a real championship and post on youtube?


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 3, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Does he go to a championship or was sparring with a friend being filmed to post on youtube?
> cuz there is a huge difference btw fighting with someone that has the real intention of knocking you out and friendly sparring...
> in friendly sparring you want the punch to touch and show the opening, you want to do a submission that is less aggressive than a punch you control yourself when throwing the person to not hurt your partner so is a different dynamic. it can happen to get someone with bad intentions, yes it can but, in his videos, this is not shown. why won't go to a real championship and post on youtube?


Rokas has a couple of amateur MMA fights under his belt at this point, I believe.

”Championships” in MMA are not something you can just go sign up for. The matchmakers for each promotion decide who gets a shot at the title, based on their fight records (as well as other concerns such as which matchups will sell the most tickets/pay-per-views).


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2022)

There is no evidence of ninjitsu being successful in fights.

This is the claim Rokus made.

Now to counter that claim ninjas just show ninjas being successful in fights. It is simple easy and an obvious solution.

Everything else isn't countering that claim. It is just tragically dancing around the issue hoping people are to stupid to notice.


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## dramonis (Dec 3, 2022)

drop bear said:


> There is no evidence of ninjitsu being successful in fights.
> 
> This is the claim Rokus made.
> 
> ...


There is an issue.
As was said here before, a championship or even a video of a street fight is not also proof of ineffectiveness.

for instance how many times did you see in a jiu Jitsu championship/street fight a Pace Choke? the fact that is rare to see, does mean is proof of ineffectiveness?

how mainstream is the martial art? to be able to see a random person on street know about the martial art, what is the average age of ppl who practice a certain martial art, and how many actually need to use this method of self-defense?

there are a number of variables to be evaluated, is not just said cuz we don see in place A or B that certain tech or martial art doesn't work.

if we are constantly practicing martial art we will notice what are our limitations and when is the moment to apply a certain concept or tech


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## dramonis (Dec 3, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Rokas has a couple of amateur MMA fights under his belt at this point, I believe.
> 
> ”Championships” in MMA are not something you can just go sign up for. The matchmakers for each promotion decide who gets a shot at the title, based on their fight records (as well as other concerns such as which matchups will sell the most tickets/pay-per-views).


Ok, didn't know about the organization in Europe/USA, but in brazil is quite easy to find regular and irregular championships to participate... btw I lost a lot cuz usually ppl are almost professional level but is a great experience.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 3, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Ok, didn't know about the organization in Europe/USA, but in brazil is quite easy to find regular and irregular championships to participate... btw I lost a lot cuz usually ppl are almost professional level but is a great experience.


Ah … I think there may be a language issue here. You seem to be using “championship” to mean any tournament or competition. That’s not usually* the case in English, especially in MMA. Since modern MMA fighters generally only have one fight per event, it wouldn’t make sense to call every fight a championship. Championship fights in MMA are those designated for determining title holders in a given promotion and the contestants in those fights are typically those who have proven themselves in previous matches. The same would hold for boxing. In combat sports where athletes can have multiple matches in a single event, then a “championship” would generally indicate a more prestigious tournament, possibly one where contestants earned their place through success in other tournaments. (ADCC would be an example of this.)

*(I say “usually“ because there are a fair number of local tournaments out there which seek to inflate their image by declaring themselves to be “championships“. That’s more typical of point karate than MMA or BJJ, though.)


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 3, 2022)

dramonis said:


> I, a black belt in BJJ, enjoy using the tech of Bujinkan to cheat on championships not only Bujinkan but aikido as well.


So you say that you are a black belt in BJJ and you cheat in competition? Interesting. How exactly do Bujinkan and Aikido techniques help you cheat on BJJ?


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## dramonis (Dec 3, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> So you say that you are a black belt in BJJ and you cheat in competition? Interesting. How exactly do Bujinkan and Aikido techniques help you cheat on BJJ?


Bujinkan to cheat, use the Kyusho under the ear during a takedown which is an illegal move but the way that is taught you can do it. 
 another Kyusho on the elbow grabs that during the takedowns, if the person doesn't complain well nothing happens.

Aikido is not cheat, is more about understanding about takedowns how to avoid or where put pressure, or even a feint to lead to a takedown


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## dramonis (Dec 3, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ah … I think there may be a language issue here. You seem to be using “championship” to mean any tournament or competition. That’s not usually* the case in English, especially in MMA. Since modern MMA fighters generally only have one fight per event, it wouldn’t make sense to call every fight a championship. Championship fights in MMA are those designated for determining title holders in a given promotion and the contestants in those fights are typically those who have proven themselves in previous matches. The same would hold for boxing. In combat sports where athletes can have multiple matches in a single event, then a “championship” would generally indicate a more prestigious tournament, possibly one where contestants earned their place through success in other tournaments. (ADCC would be an example of this.)
> 
> *(I say “usually“ because there are a fair number of local tournaments out there which seek to inflate their image by declaring themselves to be “championships“. That’s more typical of point karate than MMA or BJJ, though.)


Thanks for the explanation, and sorry for my mistake English is not my first language.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 3, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Bujinkan to cheat, use the Kyusho under the ear during a takedown which is an illegal move but the way that is taught you can do it.
> another Kyusho on the elbow grabs that during the takedowns, if the person doesn't complain well nothing happens.
> 
> Aikido is not cheat, is more about understanding about takedowns how to avoid or where put pressure, or even a feint to lead to a takedown


Hmm … I’m a BJJ instructor, and I’ve never heard of any rule against using Kyusho points under the ear or on the elbow. I just went and double checked the official IBJJF rule book, and I don’t see anything about it there. What rules are you breaking exactly?


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## dramonis (Dec 3, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hmm … I’m a BJJ instructor, and I’ve never heard of any rule against using Kyusho points under the ear or on the elbow. I just went and double checked the official IBJJF rule book, and I don’t see anything about it there. What rules are you breaking exactly?


I don't really know, I got a few disciplinary penalties in competitions usually the judge uses the rule:


> *6.1.3* When an athlete bites, pulls hair, strikes or applies pressure to the genitals or eyes, or intentionally uses a traumatic blow of any kind (such as punches, elbows, knees, head butts, kicks, etc).


Since then always thought that movement can be considered illegal and always try to use in a concealed way.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 3, 2022)

dramonis said:


> I don't really know, I got a few disciplinary penalties in competitions usually the judge uses the rule:
> 
> Since then always thought that movement can be considered illegal and always try to use in a concealed way.


Unless you were actually striking the pressure point, that rule shouldn’t apply. (Of course if you were striking, then it would be a foul regardless. Save that for MMA.) I don’t know what the refs were thinking. Then again, I’ve never competed in Brazil so I don’t know what judging standards are like.


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2022)

dramonis said:


> There is an issue.
> As was said here before, a championship or even a video of a street fight is not also proof of ineffectiveness.
> 
> for instance how many times did you see in a jiu Jitsu championship/street fight a Pace Choke? the fact that is rare to see, does mean is proof of ineffectiveness?
> ...



You would need the video to exist first before you worry about the details as to how applicable or representative of the style it was.

Rokus I believe received no videos of anything other than excuses.

Wing chun was the only guys who could actually provide anything.


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hmm … I’m a BJJ instructor, and I’ve never heard of any rule against using Kyusho points under the ear or on the elbow. I just went and double checked the official IBJJF rule book, and I don’t see anything about it there. What rules are you breaking exactly?



If you were obviously jamming a single finger in the neck. Would that be frowned upon? I normally do fist or elbow or knee or something.

There is a neck grab where you latch on to the muscle at the side and kind of roll it forward.  Or even slapped on collar ties.


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## dramonis (Dec 3, 2022)

drop bear said:


> If you were obviously jamming a single finger in the neck. Would that be frowned upon? I normally do fist or elbow or knee or something.
> 
> There is a neck grab where you latch on to the muscle at the side and kind of roll it forward.  Or even slapped on collar ties.


Well, in this case, is a finger behind the ear connection with the jaw, during the movement to make a takedown, it hurts as fk and can be considered illegal.

btw the video just proves what I said, just because is rare and not mainstream isn't proof of ineffectiveness.
See videos of ppl fighting on the street and talk more about how popular the art is instead of how effective is.

And once more, For use a tech from a martial art you don't need to be in the kamae (guard) of the martial art like a martial art dummy, especially if you are training in Bujinkan is a recurrent theme the Hatsumi says to lose the kamae and adapt the tech to yourself.

More one thing, for example, Tachi nage if you see in MMA you will say is judo, but can also be from Bujinkan and when you are fighting with a stance like anyone else you will never notice from where it came from. Another example is Mawashi Geri karate is the same as round kick and is the same as dollyeo chagi teakowondo, if the person is fighting you will never know from which art it came from, cuz this I repeat Rokas don't understand fighting and much less data interpretation.

Fighting has a sweet spot to jiu Jitsu, to kickboxing, to aikido and etc work anyone who fights constantly knows, is not A or B doesn't work is more about our own judgment that is unreal in terms of timing.

just to add 
Enson Inoue was a black belt in bujinkan and bjj and a really good old school mma figther.


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## dunc (Dec 4, 2022)

My issue with Rokas is that I’ve provided a balanced perspective for him and offered to have him visit my dojo and spar with us any time. I’ve made my offer via all the channels that I can find for him, but he’s ignored it and has chosen to engage with other folk (that happen to reinforce his perspective)


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2022)

dunc said:


> My issue with Rokas is that I’ve provided a balanced perspective for him and offered to have him visit my dojo and spar with us any time. I’ve made my offer via all the channels that I can find for him, but he’s ignored it and has chosen to engage with other folk (that happen to reinforce his perspective)


just send a video of the sparring.


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## Cynik75 (Dec 4, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Does he go to a championship or was sparring with a friend being filmed to post on youtube?
> ....


First:




Second:


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## dramonis (Dec 4, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> First:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the second one looks more like a competition. the first looks more like sparring in the gym to me, but this is enough to change my mind about it.


drop bear said:


> just send a video of the sparring.


well, we can spar, I will see the next competition I ask to someone film. but he probably will say is BJJ or kickboxing cuz different from that Wing Chun guy. my posture is more like Machida


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