# Importance of Sparring



## RavenDarkfellow (Jan 28, 2005)

Alright, in my dojo we don't spar at all.  This is really frustrating to me.  I realize we can't spar with techniques, as we'd be gouging eachother's eyes out, attacking eachothers' testicles, and breaking various limbs . . .  however, it seems that sparring is really important.  Every other martial art I've read about includes sparring, and even though we can't spar Kenpo techniques, we could still spar the basics, right?  

I mean, you have to learn to control and handle yourself in a real-time fight, right?  I mean sure, sparring isn't exactly like street confrontation, but it's a helluvalot better than doing nothing, right?

While I was receiving informal training from my uncle, he had my two cousins (his sons) and I sparring all the time.  Now, in this formal martial art, there has been NO sparring whatsoever.  Seriously, now, I used to be a full-contact guy!  Is there seriously no room in Kenpo for sparring?


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## dubljay (Jan 28, 2005)

Well I wouldn't say that you can not spar with techniques, I frequently use say Reversing Mace from the orange belt list.  However when it comes to the downward kick to the back of the knee I either omit the kick and move on, or I will do a controlled take down as to not hurt their knee (i.e. a sweep of sorts).Or I will use Leaping Crane from purple belt, again omitting the kick to the knee as to not do serious damage to my partner.  The school I attend sparing is something we don't do on a regular basis, but it is still important, and is a requirement to test for black.  

 Sparring is a very important learning atmosphere.  The fight is at real time speed though the power depends on those who are sparring.  I have a friend that likes to spar at 50-80% power, while others that prefer only light contact.  Sparring developes reflexes that otherwise would be under developed.  Sparring is a real time learning expereince, meaning you see the immedate consequences of your actions.  For example you back up when being rushed... now you find yourself in the corner and being overwhelmed.  Once you realize you have left yourself with no means of evading or countering you learn that going back may not always be the best choice, so you learn to side step or cut to the corners.  You see the immedate results of your tactics.    SD Techniques really dont develop that skill (IMO ... I have not been in martial arts or kenpo long enough to say that for certain).  Sparring is the best way to learn what strikes work best in certain situations, like when you opponent is facing the same direction as you (open) or when you are belly to belly (closed).  This also allows you to identify what your own personal body mechanics are for certain strikes and blocks.  Again the most important aspect of sparring is the fact that it is a real time learning situation, there are consequences (both good and bad) for every action you take and you see the consequences as soon as you commit to a particualar action.  

 I would also like to state that I never spar in any sort of competitive way.  I do not mean to dissrespect those who spar in tournaments or anything like that, I understand and value the concept there.  However what I mean is that when I step onto the matts to spar with someone my goal is not in winning or losing.  I am there to improve my skills, and help my partner imporve their skills.  Learning cannot take place when there is a competition going on.  Competition often gives motivation to improve our skills, but very little mutual learning happens.  For example: there is little to no bennifit for an advanced student to spar a novice, simply to beat them. Certainally there will be some learning on the part of the novice student, but not as much as if the competitive nature was not there.  The chances of the advanced student learning anything by simply beating novice students with the same handfull of techniques and their variants is not learning either.  Having sparred with novice students in a non competitive situation not only did the novice learn as much as possible, I did too.  This also leads into the topic of self confidence... but thats not for this thread.


 Simply my opinion and I could be wrong

 -Josh-


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## redfang (Jan 28, 2005)

Sparring in some form or other has been part of every Kenpo studio that I have been familiar with.  Where I originally trained, we sparred in the standard point style.  That is kicking and punching only, tournament type sparring.  Then our teacher retired and his replacement didn't go for this type of sparring.  He calls it 'playing tag'.  So now we add shootfighting and grappling in general, and spar in a mma fashion.  My brother studied kenpo elsewhere and they spar in the former manner.  To me it seems necessary to practice hitting and getting hit.


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## Dr. Kenpo (Jan 28, 2005)

RavenDarkfellow said:
			
		

> Alright, in my dojo we don't spar at all. This is really frustrating to me. I realize we can't spar with techniques, as we'd be gouging eachother's eyes out, attacking eachothers' testicles, and breaking various limbs . . . however, it seems that sparring is really important. Every other martial art I've read about includes sparring, and even though we can't spar Kenpo techniques, we could still spar the basics, right?
> 
> I mean, you have to learn to control and handle yourself in a real-time fight, right? I mean sure, sparring isn't exactly like street confrontation, but it's a helluvalot better than doing nothing, right?
> 
> While I was receiving informal training from my uncle, he had my two cousins (his sons) and I sparring all the time. Now, in this formal martial art, there has been NO sparring whatsoever. Seriously, now, I used to be a full-contact guy! Is there seriously no room in Kenpo for sparring?


There's always room for it. You're missing out if it isn't in there.:asian:


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## Ray (Jan 29, 2005)

IMO: Sparring is important.  You can practice techniques and kata all day, but sparring is where you really get the flavor of making it all work.  Gaging distance, timing, importance of speed and a whole lot of other things become apparent in sparring.  

Now, there could be a big debate over what level of contact during sparring leads to real learning; and whether sparring is a poor substitute for real life encounters; but sparring is {generally} a safe way to learn a whole bunch about how to apply kenpo.


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## lonekimono10 (Jan 29, 2005)

Hello to all, just want to add this , in my school we do something called 

"cat and mouse" think about it.


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## ZKenpo (Jan 29, 2005)

Speaking of American Kenpo(I can not say for other styles) our art can be broken down into three divisions.

All basic fundamentals(blocks, kicks, stances, etc..) including forms which are comprised out of our basics.  
These are the building blocks all of our techniques come from.

Reactionary training.  Your self defense techniques.

Self defense techniques deal primaraly with spontaneous attacks that you were probobly not expecting.  You may or may not see the entire attack coming, so it is important to drill techniques repeatedly.  This repetition trains the body to move appropiately when attacked.  (example)  You were grabbed forcibly from behind, then before your mind can even think about it your body executes a technique such as Captured Twigs.  It may take your brain two or three seconds to fully realize what just happened, however your body executed the technique in about 1.2 seconds. 

Freestlye or sparring.

If you omit one of these areas from your training your ability to defend yourself will have some fairly large holes in it.  While techniques train not only the mind but also the body to react appropriately to an attack, your freestyle will teach you to deal with a *fighter*.  If you train solely with basics and self defense you will find yourself out of your element if forced to square off with a *fighter*.

Sparring can be an effective tool to teach a student how to safely bridge the gap between you and your opponent and manuever yourself into a position where a self defense technique could be applied.  Also when dealing with a person who has some kind of training in martial arts, a purely physical attack may not be enough.  Martial artists are trained to defeat physical attacks, so you must couple your physical movements with mental or psychological  attacks.

This can be accomplished through the use of many various techniques such as, feints, shouting, making ugly faces, body gestures, eye gestures, etc...
Freestyleing can teach you to incorporate these additional concepts against an opponent in a controlled environment( your school) with real time results.

Thusly, sparring is about the best way to learn how to mentally dominate your opponent, making the execution of your physical attacks easier and more devastating to your opponent.  To omit sparring from your training would be as foolish as omitting basics or self defense, they are all equally important and should be treated as such.


I will get off my soap box now, apologies if I talked your ears off, and thanks for reading the whole thing.


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## RavenDarkfellow (Jan 29, 2005)

I completely agree with all of you.  I get the feeling the primary reason my sensei omits sparring is because of the insurance.  He's apparently having a hard time with just the RENT for the building (they keep jacking it up on him), so insurance for sparring purposes would probably be too much money. . .  I think/hope that's the only reason.


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## dubljay (Jan 30, 2005)

A cure for the insurance issue would be a liability waver or sorts.  A written contract that states you can not hold the owner of the business and or landlord liable for injuries that take place in training.  

 There are obvious concerns with a waver like that, but if you trust the people you train with you shouldnt have anything to fear.  That and you should check the legality of such a contract before entering one (as always).  

 Just a thought though.


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## DarrenJew (Jan 30, 2005)

Liability and contracts... are still risky. All it takes is one law suite to close a school down.

That being said: I believe sparring is very important, it can be done with proper training and equipment. Not only does it help you with your timing and technique, the most important part is anti-flinch. "Teach people not to close their eyes while sparing, especially when a punch is being delivered." Also video tape it for review after the practice is over. Its good for everyone to witness their own bad habits so that they may try to correct them... Leaning back off balance while kicking, or not following up after a punch (throw one punch and stop... You dont have to stop and pose... No one is going to take your picture in a real fight.)

Light sparing between close friends is easiest or between senior students, but sparing with beginners is a mistake. There are 2 types of new students, ones that are shy and may be insecure... if matched with an experienced sparring partner is ok... but the ones that have a chip on their shoulder, something to prove... big danger here they are planning to take your head off, and even the most experienced student may loose their cool and decide that this person needs a lesson... bam, broken nose, lost tooth, worst yet concussion, you have a law suite.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 30, 2005)

DarrenJew said:
			
		

> Light sparing between close friends is easiest or between senior students, but sparing with beginners is a mistake.


 Sparring with beginners is not a mistake. Only you have to be extremely careful how you pair them up. They usually think they're safer sparring with other beginners, when in a normal environment is the opposite.

 And if some of them is paired with a woman, they usually behave like asses and go with the stupidest of comments "but I can hurt her", even when sparring with brown or black belts.

 But sparring with beginner, at least in my case, is a mix between trying to give them some advice and encouraging them. And by giving advice I usually end up learning/realizing something that I can apply to my training as well.



			
				DarrenJew said:
			
		

> There are 2 types of new students, ones that are shy and may be insecure... if matched with an experienced sparring partner is ok... but the ones that have a chip on their shoulder, something to prove... big danger here they are planning to take your head off, and even the most experienced student may loose their cool and decide that this person needs a lesson... bam, broken nose, lost tooth, worst yet concussion, you have a law suite.


 I couldn't agree more. And I would add a third category with those that doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't control their strikes. All they say afterwards is "It wasn't that hard, c'mon" and they mean it... until they get paired with another one of this type. End result is no one wants to train with them.


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## Drifter (Jan 30, 2005)

Well, you could try to get some other people you feel comfortable with in your school to spar with you outside of class. You probably aren't the only one wanting to spar.


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## dubljay (Jan 30, 2005)

Drifter said:
			
		

> Well, you could try to get some other people you feel comfortable with in your school to spar with you outside of class. You probably aren't the only one wanting to spar.


 
 I would ONLY reccomend this under 3 conditions.  1) Under no circumstances should a group of novice people spar unsupervised, so if you wish to find training partners besure to have atleast one advanced belt that has plenty of sparring experience. 2) Once you have found partners lay down strict rules of contact and targets and play by those rules.  There are rare times when friendly sparring turns into an all out fight. 3) ABOVE ALL ELSE CONSULT WITH YOUR INSTRUCTOR BEFORE ACTUALLY STARTING.  You should explain why you wish to spar, and explain the rules you have chosen for contact and targets.  I believe talking to your instructor should be done before finding training partners because there may be students that like to spar, but are unfit for it due to medical reasons, or will lose their cool.


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## The Kai (Jan 30, 2005)

Sparring is a must, every Kenpo school usally has a strong history of sparring.   You are missing something from your training if you don't spar

Todd


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## Kenpoist (Jan 30, 2005)

I concur, sparring is an important part of ones training.  You can develop your timing, balnce,  coordination, speed and it is a good cardio workout.

We don't spar at my current school - we don't really even work on kicking and punching( hitting the heavy bag or shield), which can develop your power and accuracy.

Hopefully we will incorpaorate this into our school doen the line as it is a newly opened school.


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## Seabrook (Feb 1, 2005)

This may sound harsh - but I suggest switching to a new school if the club you are at refuses to do sparring.

There must be consistent practice at BOTH sparring and self-defense techniques to truly learn how to defend yourself. 

Instructors who only focus on Kenpo's techniques are second-guessing themselves. They give their students a false sense of security. 

The best way to learn how to defend yourself is to fight (spar) with as many opponents as possible, of all sizes and shapes. I try to spar at least once or twice weekly. Doing so teaches me to respond to pressure, and how to take advantage and exploit an opponent's weakness.


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## jdmills (Feb 1, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> This may sound harsh - but I suggest switching to a new school if the club you are at refuses to do sparring.
> 
> There must be consistent practice at BOTH sparring and self-defense techniques to truly learn how to defend yourself.
> 
> ...



I frankly would not study at a school that does not spar.  Yes, it is very important to be careful who spars with who and there are students that simply cannot spar with less experienced or capable students.

As said by SGM Parker "when pure knuckles meet pure flesh, that is pure karate."

On to the liability issue (since I am an attorney, I'm fairly qualified to opine on this).  It is extremely important to have a well written liability waiver and an assumption of risk.  This will protect the school to a large extent if sued but, equally importantly, it will inform students in no uncertain terms that they easily could be injured and will cause them to be much less likely to bring suit.  That being said, it is still important for instructors to use common sense.  A liability waiver probably will not prevent a suit if the instuctor is is negligent.  Leaving students to spar unsupervised (for example) is a quick way to get sued since it is difficult to argue that it is not negligent.  The effectiveness of liability waivers varies somewhat from state to state and it is important to speak with an attorney regarding this (I don't do this kind of work anymore so I am not advertising here).  Costs should be minimal and it is a one time expenditure in any event.

Have a good liability waiver and do as much as possible to prevent claims of negligence and you will minimize your chances of being sued.  Sparring is an absolute must in my opinion.  Of course, that is Benny Urquidez with me in the picture above so I am a bit biased.


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## Seabrook (Feb 1, 2005)

Good points Jim.


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## DarrenJew (Feb 1, 2005)

Does insurance cover this type of thing? If it does what type of premiums would one expect to pay?


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## The Kai (Feb 1, 2005)

Typically You need insureance for your school anyways, and they cover light sparring, so....


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## Shortay (Feb 3, 2005)

Kenpomachine said:
			
		

> Sparring with beginners is not a mistake. Only you have to be extremely careful how you pair them up. They usually think they're safer sparring with other beginners, when in a normal environment is the opposite.
> 
> I totally agree. Most beginners have yet to appreciate the concept of control and two beginners together can lead to an over-aggressive sparring session. But it would be a mistake to say they shouldn't spar at all or else how are they going to learn? Even a person experienced in techniques can find it hard to make the transition to a less-structured attack, so this can apply equally to complete beginners and beginners to sparring.
> 
> ...


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## jdmills (Feb 3, 2005)

Not to mention, putting a beginner with a more advanced person makes it possible to know who to blame if someone gets hurt.  Advanced belts can sometimes learn a lot from beginners who sometimes do unexpected things and also sometimes have a natural broken rythym that can be somewhat tricky to anticipate.


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## LexTalinis (Feb 10, 2005)

_If I went to a dojo and learned that they did not spar, I would turn around and leave.  Sparing is how Kenpoka polish thier techniques and become conditioned to the vigors and speed of acutal combat.

Thos that do not include sparing must have taken one to many blows to the brain  _ :whip:


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## jdmills (Feb 11, 2005)

I guess if you get a black belt via ebay (or otherwise pay for it without any checks of skill level) it probably would be a good idea not to spar in the school.  A good street fighter or someone with a little training may wipe the floor with the "master".  Could be embarrassing.  

I'm not saying that all martial artists (even in Kenpo studios) who do not spar are fakes.  Obviously, that is not true.  I can think of several justifiable reasons not to let students spar at all (insurance concerns and the instructors lack of interest in the sparring aspects of the art with a refocus on kata or mental aspects are two reasons) but I simply disagree.

I've known a few kenpo black belts who were not particularly good fighters.  They seemed to be more interested in developing katas for competition.  It's not for me to pass judgment on how a particular instructor decides to teach but I would not study there since I am interested (among other things) in improving my self defense capabilities.


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## dubljay (Feb 11, 2005)

Sparring is very important in developing abilities.  However I also feel that in some ways the value of sparring is often over estimated in developing skills.  If my history is accurate in the early days of Karate in Japan and Okinawa sparring  was an inconceivable idea.  If I understand the reasoning correctly it was simply because only one would survive the match.  There is no denying the ability of those ancient Karate masters in their ability to fight, which was developed in general without sparring.  I am not trying to debunk the value of sparring; I am just trying to put a different perspective on the situation.  Working on forms and Kata's is a great way to develop creativity and to identify weaknesses with certain strikes and stances.  The true key to honing your martial arts abilities is to find the balance that works best for you, and the best way to train students is to give them all the tools necessary for them to find that balance on their own.

 Just my thoughts and perhaps someone with a better knowledge of martial arts history could set some of my facts straight.  


 -Josh-


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## Seabrook (Feb 11, 2005)

I have heard of several Tracy Kenpo clubs that put little to no emphasis on sparring. Sorry if this is a broad generalization about Tracy's Kenpo in general because I do know some Tracy black belts that are tough as nails. 

But I have to say that I actually know a few Tracy clubs that do NO sparring whatsoever and that this seems more common in Tracy clubs than EPAK. What's everyone's thoughts on this?

I have to say I am a firm believer that if a school doesn't work on sparring....time to find another one.

Jamie Seabrook

www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## jdmills (Feb 11, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I have heard of several Tracy Kenpo clubs that put little to no emphasis on sparring. Sorry if this is a broad generalization about Tracy's Kenpo in general because I do know some Tracy black belts that are tough as nails.
> 
> But I have to say that I actually know a few Tracy clubs that do NO sparring whatsoever and that this seems more common in Tracy clubs than EPAK. What's everyone's thoughts on this?
> 
> ...



Since I did a significant amount of my training in the Philadelphia area (where there was (at least at the time) a very strong Tracy influence, I have seen a fair number of Tracy practitioners and I started that way myself (30 techniques per belt till I switched a blue belt level).  I personally did not see this but that was more than a decade ago and the philosophy may have changed.  I've seen Tracy practitioners who could not do much else but spar.  It all depends on the individual and the instructor.


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## The Kai (Feb 11, 2005)

I started out at a tracy school, believe me there was full contact fighting ever night!!  In the midwest I am


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## LexTalinis (Feb 11, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> Sparring is very important in developing abilities.  However I also feel that in some ways the value of sparring is often over estimated in developing skills.  If my history is accurate in the early days of Karate in Japan and Okinawa sparring  was an inconceivable idea.  If I understand the reasoning correctly it was simply because only one would survive the match.  There is no denying the ability of those ancient Karate masters in their ability to fight, which was developed in general without sparring.  I am not trying to debunk the value of sparring; I am just trying to put a different perspective on the situation.  Working on forms and Kata's is a great way to develop creativity and to identify weaknesses with certain strikes and stances.  The true key to honing your martial arts abilities is to find the balance that works best for you, and the best way to train students is to give them all the tools necessary for them to find that balance on their own.
> 
> Just my thoughts and perhaps someone with a better knowledge of martial arts history could set some of my facts straight.
> 
> ...



_Exactly, they did not spar for the precise reason that there would only be one at the end.  But the technology of today allows us to spar in general saftey.  back in the 50's and 60's they tied newspapers to their shins and wore boxing gloves... look at what we have today.  I think with the equipment avalible to us, even the masters of old would encurage sparring.

Ufortunately I see too many people walk in my dojo and expect point sparing.  I place no emphasis on competitive sparring, if my students wish to compete, then I work with them on it, but I stress seeing techniques preformed, and treating it like an actual fight.  If it goes to the ground, then that's where it goes.  To me it is not about sport, but about defense.  Otherwise, it is mearly a game of tag.  Just my opinion._


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## jdmills (Feb 11, 2005)

LexTalinis said:
			
		

> _Exactly, they did not spar for the precise reason that there would only be one at the end.  But the technology of today allows us to spar in general saftey.  back in the 50's and 60's they tied newspapers to their shins and wore boxing gloves... look at what we have today.  I think with the equipment avalible to us, even the masters of old would encurage sparring.
> 
> Ufortunately I see too many people walk in my dojo and expect point sparing.  I place no emphasis on competitive sparring, if my students wish to compete, then I work with them on it, but I stress seeing techniques preformed, and treating it like an actual fight.  If it goes to the ground, then that's where it goes.  To me it is not about sport, but about defense.  Otherwise, it is mearly a game of tag.  Just my opinion._



There are still many who justify not sparring by saying that their techniques are "too deadly" or that learning to pull punches  teaches students to pull punches on the street.  I personally do not buy any of it.  Kenpo techniques are very devastating if fully executed at full speed and power.  However, that does not mean that we cannot spar and I don't think that logic truly applies to any system.


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## dubljay (Feb 11, 2005)

I would just like to say that I was making a point by saying that in the past Martial Artists were devestatingly effective fighters and did not spar. In todays world of technology we can safely spar at all levels. I just wanted to point out the sparring is simply *ONE* of many training methods to learn to defend yourself.


 -Josh-


_Edit

 If you read my initial response to this thread you will see my personal views of this matter, I just wanted to keep everyone's mind open.
_


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## jdmills (Feb 11, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> I would just like to say that I was making a point by saying that in the past Martial Artists were devestatingly effective fighters and did not spar. In todays world of technology we can safely spar at all levels. I just wanted to point out the sparring is simply *ONE* of many training methods to learn to defend yourself.
> 
> 
> -Josh-
> ...


Yes, I agree.  I have also hear of Tai Chi practitioners who were great fighters.  I think it takes longer to be an effective fighter in some styles than it does in others.  I also think that sparring is the most effective way to speed up progression in the ability to fight.  It's not impossible to become effective without sparring, it just takes much longer


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## Whitebelt (Feb 11, 2005)

this is compleatly unrelated...how do you start a thread?


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## dubljay (Feb 11, 2005)

Whitebelt said:
			
		

> this is compleatly unrelated...how do you start a thread?


 Check out the FAQ section and the Meet and Greet sections.

   For starting threads
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19998

   Welcome to MT

   -Josh-


_Edit

  Be sure to check out the rules for posting and what not.
_


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## Drag'n (Feb 12, 2005)

That really sux that you have to worry about law suits in US dojos.
Here in Japan it would be unheard of to sue your dojo.After all its a MA school.Of course you're going to get hurt!
I wasted many years at dojos that didn't free spar. To be honest I really couldn't fight back then. I thought I could though.
Now its the opposite extreme. Sparring full contact 3-4 days a week.
It's really taking its toll on my body.One injury after another.
I think its really important to find ballance.
Sometimes you need to keep it light and really focus on technique.Thats where the most learning usually occurs.
But you also need to go all out sometimes to get used to the adrenalin of combat , condition your mind and body to take punishment, and react calmly in the face of an aggressive attack.
Not to mention timing, distancing ,balance, focus etc....
Sparring is essential if you want to learn how to fight.


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## jdmills (Feb 12, 2005)

There is more to martial arts than sparring.  Frankly, I'm not sure who I would rather be, the black belt that I met at an Ed Parker seminar outside Philly who could tear the hell out of nearly anyone he came across (I am referring to other kenpo black belts here) but didn't know half the techniques and three quarters of the katas, or the black belt I saw at a tournament who did one of the best kata's I have ever seen but can't fight worth a damn.

Too much emphasis on sparring is is nearly as bad as no emphasis at all.  There is more to martial arts than pure fighting ability in my opinion.


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## dubljay (Feb 12, 2005)

jdmills said:
			
		

> Too much emphasis on sparring is is nearly as bad as no emphasis at all. There is more to martial arts than pure fighting ability in my opinion.


 Well said


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## jdmills (Feb 12, 2005)

Drag'n said:
			
		

> That really sux that you have to worry about law suits in US dojos.
> . . .
> Here in Japan it would be unheard of to sue your dojo.After all its a MA school.Of course you're going to get hurt!



Yes, you should expect and be able to tolerate a certain level of injury.  A good release will say that you can be injured, have broken bones, and even be crippled or killed.  In the interest of full disclosure the student should know what s/he is getting into going in.  However, a release is not an authorization for an instuctor to permit students to spar without supervision, pair students with other students known to be overly aggressive or to lack control, permit students who are known to intentionally injure other students to remain, or to otherwise neglect their responsibilities.  Yes, students should know that they can be seriously injured in martial arts training (it's not a knitting class) but since it is a serious and dangerous activity, instuctors are expected and therefore required to closely monitor sparring sessions and to conduct the sparring classes in a safe manner.

That being said, due to the extreme language used in all good releases, lawsuits against martial arts schools are, generally, fairly uncommon.


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## kenpoworks (Feb 12, 2005)

Boxing clubs in my experience have less injuries than kenpo/karate/MAs etc. because they get the students where they have to be gradually and usually have the students best interests at heart.

I have always loved freestyle and the people who get "really" good at it realise early on that the "Macho" attitude of "no pain (injury) no gain" is actually a hindrance to progress.

A lot Kenpo instructors would find the Boxing Gym a humbling experience.

Sparring is important at any age or level just get rid of the "gun slingers".


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## daddyslittle1 (Feb 13, 2005)

In my aikido school we dont spar either.I used to take kenpo and we sparred all the time.I like sparring alot though.Instead of sparring we do an attack line.Were someone runs up to you and attacks you with out you knowing what the attack is.Then we have to reaspond immediately.


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## kenpoworks (Feb 13, 2005)

Yes, I have seen these Aikido drills, only thing is you are aware of the attack prior to the defence..."some one runs  up".
Not a criticism an observation.
Respect
Rich.


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## theletch1 (Feb 13, 2005)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Yes, I have seen these Aikido drills, only thing is you are aware of the attack prior to the defence..."some one runs  up".
> Not a criticism an observation.
> Respect
> Rich.


 Rich, as the student progresses the distance between uke and nage decreases to the point that you are eventually at half ma-ai.  The concept is not that much different from sparring in that you have no idea what attack is to be thrown.  I've found it to increase my reaction time great deal.  To take this drill one step further we have randori (free style attacks) and this is VERY much like sparring.  Two opponents attack each other as an opening appears and react with technique.  It's always done at an age appropriate pace and IMHO is as important to aikido training as sparring is to TKD, kenpo or any other art.


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## kenpoworks (Feb 13, 2005)

Thanks for the break down Jeff, does seem a "little" like  sparring though.
Respect
Rich


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## masherdong (Feb 13, 2005)

Yes, sparring is a necessity of the arts.  It does teach reflexes and exercises your techniques.


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## theletch1 (Feb 13, 2005)

Rich, randori with a good training partner can have you looking for the sparring pads in no time flat. :ultracool


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## Seabrook (Feb 14, 2005)

jdmills said:
			
		

> Since I did a significant amount of my training in the Philadelphia area (where there was (at least at the time) a very strong Tracy influence, I have seen a fair number of Tracy practitioners and I started that way myself (30 techniques per belt till I switched a blue belt level). I personally did not see this but that was more than a decade ago and the philosophy may have changed. I've seen Tracy practitioners who could not do much else but spar. It all depends on the individual and the instructor.


Did you have a connection with Dennis Tosten or perhaps Dennis Nackord? I have trained with both at seminars...they are tough as nails and great fighters. 

Jamie Seabrook
http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (Feb 14, 2005)

jdmills said:
			
		

> There are still many who justify not sparring by saying that their techniques are "too deadly" or that learning to pull punches teaches students to pull punches on the street. I personally do not buy any of it. Kenpo techniques are very devastating if fully executed at full speed and power. However, that does not mean that we cannot spar and I don't think that logic truly applies to any system.


That's the exact cheesy argument that I have heard from one of our local Tracy black belts.

Jamie Seabrook
http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## OrangeLeopard (Feb 14, 2005)

A lot of emphasis on sparring is placed at my studio. During advanced tests students actually have to grapple and spar with my instructor (obviously not to win but so he can judge the level you are actually understanding kempo). We also di a lot of tournaments and competitive sparring which I believe is ok because competition really brings forth the drive to win, and that desire generally makes a spar a lot more realistic; however, i do value the learning aspects that sparring offers especially in a friendly envirnoment with people of assorted ranks. I prefer the latter but do very much enjoy a hihgly competive sparring comp.


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## jdmills (Feb 14, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Did you have a connection with Dennis Tosten or perhaps Dennis Nackord? I have trained with both at seminars...they are tough as nails and great fighters.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



Yes, I've been to Dennis Nackord's studio several times.  It was at Dennis Nackord's school that I first met SGM Parker.  I know of Dennis Tosten but I am certain he does not have any idea who I am.  Mr. Tosten is probably the best tournament ref that I have ever seen.  He keeps good control of the ring, makes is directions very clear, and is impartial (even when his own students are sparring with other students).  Tom Updegrove is also very good as are many others in that area.    Dennis Nackord holds high dan rank from Joe Lewis and Dennis Nackord was a major tournament competitor 30 years or so ago.  I'm told that Dennis Tosten is also very good and I have nothing but respect for both of them.


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