# Critique vs Criticism



## jks9199

*Critique*: _evaluate in a detailed and analytical way_
*Criticize*: _find the faults with or about something
_
Please remember that there is a difference.  Many times, we find  ourselves criticizing posts and videos when they ask for a critique.   Critiques are generally factual and objective, though they may own  opinions within a critique.  If you want to stay on the right side of  the rules and friendly spirit hereabouts, review your post before you  hit send, and make sure that you're offering a critique rather than  finding fault.


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## Tarrycat

jks9199 said:


> *Critique*: _evaluate in a detailed and analytical way_
> *Criticize*: _find the faults with or about something
> _
> Please remember that there is a difference.  Many times, we find  ourselves criticizing posts and videos when they ask for a critique.   Critiques are generally factual and objective, though they may own  opinions within a critique.  If you want to stay on the right side of  the rules and friendly spirit hereabouts, review your post before you  hit send, and make sure that you're offering a critique rather than  finding fault.



I think a lot of people don't know the difference, to be quite honest.


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## Bill Mattocks

Which is why I typically refrain from offering anything but encouragement to any video posted, unless the person posting it asks for suggestions, recommendations, etc, and then I try to be gentle but concise.

I am not enough of an expert on basically anything to offer a lot of positive criticism, so I often don't say anything, but just click 'like' on the video to indicate that I saw it and want to offer general encouragement.

I've posted a few of my own, and after a few hundred views and no replies, I've done the head-scratching _"That bad, eh?"_ and moved on.  Sometimes I'd rather have negative feedback than silence.


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## Tarrycat

Bill Mattocks said:


> Which is why I typically refrain from offering anything but encouragement to any video posted, unless the person posting it asks for suggestions, recommendations, etc, and then I try to be gentle but concise.
> 
> I am not enough of an expert on basically anything to offer a lot of positive criticism, so I often don't say anything, but just click 'like' on the video to indicate that I saw it and want to offer general encouragement.
> 
> I've posted a few of my own, and after a few hundred views and no replies, I've done the head-scratching _"That bad, eh?"_ and moved on.  Sometimes I'd rather have negative feedback than silence.



That's a good strategy to have. Just know that you have just as much of a right as the next person to share your opinion. I agree with it having to be constructive, & gentle; not criticising or harsh. Some people on here have a criticising tone to their opinions, & it is discouraging to say the least, especially for newcomers. 

Those known to be supportive on this site, are actually very nice & open-minded. I simply don't reply to rude people. I don't give them my time of day.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Old saying said, "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it". This will always prevent problems. IMO, it's better to send out positive energy than to send out negative energy. Some people like to say "old, sick, weak, standing, ..." I like to say, "young, healthy, strong, running, ...".

If A and B have disagreement, in stead of to quote A that you disagree with him, it may be better to quote B and say that you agree with him.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sometimes I'd rather have negative feedback than silence.


Agree! Sometime after you made your post, that thread is dead. You start to wonder, "What did I do to just kill that thread?"

I though I had put some good information in the following tread. That thread is dead after my last post and I don't know why. In that post, I believe I just offer my opinion.

A Choke for a Choke: A Basic Guillotine Counter


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## Martial D

jks9199 said:


> *Critique*: _evaluate in a detailed and analytical way_
> *Criticize*: _find the faults with or about something
> _
> Please remember that there is a difference.  Many times, we find  ourselves criticizing posts and videos when they ask for a critique.   Critiques are generally factual and objective, though they may own  opinions within a critique.  If you want to stay on the right side of  the rules and friendly spirit hereabouts, review your post before you  hit send, and make sure that you're offering a critique rather than  finding fault.


You have a point, but there is overlap. 

Example, Johny Highkick posts a sparring video. Within the video we witness johnny eating a lot of shots to the face, because he keeps his hands down and feet planted. Johny has some great kicks tho. Johnny asks for critique and tips on his video.

Poster A replies, You have great kicks, but you keep your hands too low and dont move enough, you should work on your footwork and try to keep your hands up!

Now, is that critique or criticism? How does one offer advice on correcting or improving weaknesses(faults) without first identifying them(criticism)?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! Sometime after you made your post, that thread is dead. You start to wonder, "What did I do to just kill that thread?"
> 
> I though I had put some good information in the following tread. That thread is dead after my last post and I don't know why. In that post, I believe I just offer my opinion.
> 
> A Choke for a Choke: A Basic Guillotine Counter


FWIW, I don't reply to any of the BJJ basic video/threads, but read them all, as I'm just starting BJJ. I found your post there very informative.


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## Swanson

Always be positive if you can
Like the famous book called the SECRET


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## pdg

I like constructive criticism...

Point out what you think is wrong/bad, then suggest possible ways to fix/improve it.

"If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing" might work for some people, but it's not exactly useful.

Things like the "criticism sandwich" get on my nerves too - like "X was good (positive), you should work more on Y (negative), Z was great too (positive). That's two lumps of wasted time.

I have nothing at all against commenting/congratulating if something is good, but if something isn't good why not help to remedy it?


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## dvcochran

jks9199 said:


> *Critique*: _evaluate in a detailed and analytical way_
> *Criticize*: _find the faults with or about something
> _
> Please remember that there is a difference.  Many times, we find  ourselves criticizing posts and videos when they ask for a critique.   Critiques are generally factual and objective, though they may own  opinions within a critique.  If you want to stay on the right side of  the rules and friendly spirit hereabouts, review your post before you  hit send, and make sure that you're offering a critique rather than  finding fault.


Criticizing is much more subjective. I suggest stepping back and creating your answers for as many perspectives as possible. Experience (personal not someone else's)helps a ton.


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## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> I like constructive criticism...
> 
> Point out what you think is wrong/bad, then suggest possible ways to fix/improve it.
> 
> "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing" might work for some people, but it's not exactly useful.
> 
> Things like the "criticism sandwich" get on my nerves too - like "X was good (positive), you should work more on Y (negative), Z was great too (positive). That's two lumps of wasted time.
> 
> I have nothing at all against commenting/congratulating if something is good, but if something isn't good why not help to remedy it?


My favorite technique is one I was taught by a training group I was certified with. They pass critique along with Liked Best and Next Time. I use it a lot. It gives people feedback on what they are doing well (and so should not stop doing, or maybe even consider leveraging more), then feedback on what they could do better next time (whether it was bad, or just not enough of the good, or just a missed opportunity). And we usually do it by having the person deliver their own LB/NT first, so we got into the habit of looking at our own performance and giving that feedback before listening to someone else's. Having to put into words what you think went well and/or could be better is really useful.


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## dvcochran

pdg said:


> I like constructive criticism...
> 
> Point out what you think is wrong/bad, then suggest possible ways to fix/improve it.
> 
> "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing" might work for some people, but it's not exactly useful.
> 
> Things like the "criticism sandwich" get on my nerves too - like "X was good (positive), you should work more on Y (negative), Z was great too (positive). That's two lumps of wasted time.
> 
> I have nothing at all against commenting/congratulating if something is good, but if something isn't good why not help to remedy it?


When I think of negative criticism I think of the damming statements or stupid comments. Of course being thoughtful is important but I am never offended by someone being direct. It's efficient and effective. I love the old saying "get all the liars in the same room and you will get the right answer". I hope anyone posting on the forum isn't just looking for an ego stroke.


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## CrazedChris

I am not proficient enough in anything yet to critique or criticize, but I do appreciate when someone tells me something helpful.  Don't tell me I am not good at something, I usually already know that.   Helpful constructive criticism it always welcome and I think necessary.


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## pdg

CrazedChris said:


> Don't tell me I am not good at something, I usually already know that.



What about if someone were to say "you're not so good at abc, you can improve by doing xyz"?

That's saying you're not good, but in a constructive way (not destructive, like "hey, that's bad" )


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## CrazedChris

pdg said:


> What about if someone were to say "you're not so good at abc, you can improve by doing xyz"?
> 
> That's saying you're not good, but in a constructive way (not destructive, like "hey, that's bad" )



I would find that helpful.  I should clarify.  I don't find it helpful if someone says to me, "you suck", and leaves it at that.


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## Buka

There is a lot involved in teaching Martial Arts. Really, it's a vast thing. Critiquing is one of the essentials. 

Criticising, however, at least as how I view the word, is not only a waste of time, it is a statement. "I am an a-hole".


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## pdg

Buka said:


> There is a lot involved in teaching Martial Arts. Really, it's a vast thing. Critiquing is one of the essentials.
> 
> Criticising, however, at least as how I view the word, is not only a waste of time, it is a statement. "I am an a-hole".



Now here's where there's the difference between English and English - again.

A critique need not be useful, it need not offer any suggestions or solutions - it's basically a detailed review.

I can legitimately say "that's crap because reasons" and that's a critique.

I can watch a video of a form/kata/tul and state "the kicks are wrong, the punches are weak, the stance is incorrect" - and that's a critique.

I don't need to add anything whatsoever to those statements for them to fall under the dictionary definition of critique, they are complete.

They are also critical, and therefore criticism.

They are also technically reviews - just bad ones.

Somehow, I don't think anybody would appreciate me offering a critique 


As I alluded to before, I find absolutely no value in just praise either - unless there really is no room for improvement.

So, if this section is intended to be in line with "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing" then in my view I have no contribution whatsoever to make - in any fashion (sharing or commenting).


So, should I continue with my policy of constructive criticism or just ignore the section?


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## Buka

pdg said:


> Now here's where there's the difference between English and English - again.
> 
> A critique need not be useful, it need not offer any suggestions or solutions - it's basically a detailed review.
> 
> I can legitimately say "that's crap because reasons" and that's a critique.
> 
> I can watch a video of a form/kata/tul and state "the kicks are wrong, the punches are weak, the stance is incorrect" - and that's a critique.
> 
> I don't need to add anything whatsoever to those statements for them to fall under the dictionary definition of critique, they are complete.
> 
> They are also critical, and therefore criticism.
> 
> They are also technically reviews - just bad ones.
> 
> Somehow, I don't think anybody would appreciate me offering a critique
> 
> 
> As I alluded to before, I find absolutely no value in just praise either - unless there really is no room for improvement.
> 
> So, if this section is intended to be in line with "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing" then in my view I have no contribution whatsoever to make - in any fashion (sharing or commenting).
> 
> 
> So, should I continue with my policy of constructive criticism or just ignore the section?



I think you're right, English and English.


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## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> Now here's where there's the difference between English and English - again.
> 
> A critique need not be useful, it need not offer any suggestions or solutions - it's basically a detailed review.
> 
> I can legitimately say "that's crap because reasons" and that's a critique.
> 
> I can watch a video of a form/kata/tul and state "the kicks are wrong, the punches are weak, the stance is incorrect" - and that's a critique.
> 
> I don't need to add anything whatsoever to those statements for them to fall under the dictionary definition of critique, they are complete.
> 
> They are also critical, and therefore criticism.
> 
> They are also technically reviews - just bad ones.
> 
> Somehow, I don't think anybody would appreciate me offering a critique
> 
> 
> As I alluded to before, I find absolutely no value in just praise either - unless there really is no room for improvement.
> 
> So, if this section is intended to be in line with "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing" then in my view I have no contribution whatsoever to make - in any fashion (sharing or commenting).
> 
> 
> So, should I continue with my policy of constructive criticism or just ignore the section?


There's some nuance beyond the dictionary definitions. Critiquing someone normally involves at least specifying _why _something isn't good, which is partway to offering advice on what could be improved (even if it doesn't include advice on how to make that improvement). When we say "constructive criticism", there's a reason we find it necessary to add that predecessor word - it entirely changes the connotation. Constructive criticism is like a critique that includes a bit of _how_ with the _why_.


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## dvcochran

pdg said:


> What about if someone were to say "you're not so good at abc, you can improve by doing xyz"?
> 
> That's saying you're not good, but in a constructive way (not destructive, like "hey, that's bad" )



It is the lead in that sets up a discussion. When your lead in statement includes the words "you're not good", most people are going to zero in on that making the rest of what you say less effective.


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## Tony Dismukes

"_Your kicks suck_" - useless

"_Your kicks suck because they have no power_" - marginally less useless

"_Your round kicks lack power because you aren't turning your hips over_" - potentially helpful

"_You'll get more power out of your round kicks if you turn your hips over more_" - less likely to produce defensive reaction and therefore more likely to be helpful

"_You can get more power in your round kicks by pivoting on the ball of your support foot so that your hips turn over and the heel of your support foot ends up pointed at your target_" - more helpful.

"_You can get more power in your round kicks by pivoting on the ball of your support foot so that your hips turn over and the heel of your support foot ends up pointed at your target. One good exercise to help develop this movement is to start facing a convenient platform (chair, table, ringside, etc) with one foot up on the platform in a front kick stretch position and the support foot on the ground with toes pointing forward. Keeping good balance and body alignment, pivot on your support foot so that your heel points towards your raised foot and your hip turns over so the raised ("kicking") leg rotates sidewise into a round kick position."_ -  even more helpful.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> "_Your kicks suck_" - useless
> 
> "_Your kicks suck because they have no power_" - marginally less useless
> 
> "_Your round kicks lack power because you aren't turning your hips over_" - potentially helpful
> 
> "_You'll get more power out of your round kicks if you turn your hips over more_" - less likely to produce defensive reaction and therefore more likely to be helpful
> 
> "_You can get more power in your round kicks by pivoting on the ball of your support foot so that your hips turn over and the heel of your support foot ends up pointed at your target_" - more helpful.
> 
> "_You can get more power in your round kicks by pivoting on the ball of your support foot so that your hips turn over and the heel of your support foot ends up pointed at your target. One good exercise to help develop this movement is to start facing a convenient platform (chair, table, ringside, etc) with one foot up on the platform in a front kick stretch position and the support foot on the ground with toes pointing forward. Keeping good balance and body alignment, pivot on your support foot so that your heel points towards your raised foot and your hip turns over so the raised ("kicking") leg rotates sidewise into a round kick position."_ -  even more helpful.


"Don't kick the hanging bag frame when you pivot that support foot to produce more power." Most helpful.


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## dvcochran

Tony Dismukes said:


> "_Your kicks suck_" - useless
> 
> "_Your kicks suck because they have no power_" - marginally less useless
> 
> "_Your round kicks lack power because you aren't turning your hips over_" - potentially helpful
> 
> "_You'll get more power out of your round kicks if you turn your hips over more_" - less likely to produce defensive reaction and therefore more likely to be helpful
> 
> "_You can get more power in your round kicks by pivoting on the ball of your support foot so that your hips turn over and the heel of your support foot ends up pointed at your target_" - more helpful.
> 
> "_You can get more power in your round kicks by pivoting on the ball of your support foot so that your hips turn over and the heel of your support foot ends up pointed at your target. One good exercise to help develop this movement is to start facing a convenient platform (chair, table, ringside, etc) with one foot up on the platform in a front kick stretch position and the support foot on the ground with toes pointing forward. Keeping good balance and body alignment, pivot on your support foot so that your heel points towards your raised foot and your hip turns over so the raised ("kicking") leg rotates sidewise into a round kick position."_ -  even more helpful.


Good examples. On a different tact, are you saying you pivot the heel 180° when performing a round kick? We  teach this for side kicks but only about 90° for a round kick to make the return to stance quicker and easier. Curious how you teach.


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## Tony Dismukes

dvcochran said:


> Good examples. On a different tact, are you saying you pivot the heel 180° when performing a round kick? We  teach this for side kicks but only about 90° for a round kick to make the return to stance quicker and easier. Curious how you teach.


180 degrees is ideal for power, but sometimes you might make it less if you’re prioritizing speed. The thing is, most people have a natural tendency to under-pivot, so it’s easy to back it off if you don’t want the full commitment. Contrariwise, if you only learn the smaller pivot then it’s hard to change to the full power version under stress.

Note - this is from my Muay Thai experience. I’m sure other arts teach it differently.


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## oldwarrior

gpseymour said:


> There's some nuance beyond the dictionary definitions. Critiquing someone normally involves at least specifying _why _something isn't good, which is partway to offering advice on what could be improved (even if it doesn't include advice on how to make that improvement). When we say "constructive criticism", there's a reason we find it necessary to add that predecessor word - it entirely changes the connotation. Constructive criticism is like a critique that includes a bit of _how_ with the _why_.




I agree and to add in my view how and in what tone it delivered makes the difference


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## pdg

oldwarrior said:


> I agree and to add in my view how and in what tone it delivered makes the difference



It's difficult to inflect on a forum, which is the subject of the thread...


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## oldwarrior

pdg said:


> It's difficult to inflect on a forum, which is the subject of the thread...




huh???


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## dvcochran

pdg said:


> It's difficult to inflect on a forum, which is the subject of the thread...



It is difficult to write inflection, it has to be more of an explanation with tempered passion.
 In the OP's post it defines critique  (*Critique*: _evaluate in a detailed and analytical way)._ For me, the key work is analytical. First you need to analyze the condition(s), i.e. a kick, and to be able to provide quality information about what is both correct and incorrect. However, if you overload the content and become overly polite or positive, the point(s) you are trying to make get lost in the conversation. Assuming we are talking only about a MA classroom situation, one of the most important things to do is show and perform the correction. Use your body as the visual and show how to correctly perform a technique and the negatives of doing it incorrectly.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> 180 degrees is ideal for power, but sometimes you might make it less if you’re prioritizing speed. The thing is, most people have a natural tendency to under-pivot, so it’s easy to back it off if you don’t want the full commitment. Contrariwise, if you only learn the smaller pivot then it’s hard to change to the full power version under stress.
> 
> Note - this is from my Muay Thai experience. I’m sure other arts teach it differently.


The principle is the same in how I was taught to kick in NGA. Traditionally, the front foot is taught as a speed kick, so no back foot pivot (from a fighting stance). The rear foot is traditionally taught for power, so a pivot. The pivot taught isn't nearly 180 degrees, but now I have something to tinker with during class this evening. I want to look and see how far my current "natural" pivot actually is, and how far I can currently pivot without changing the kick. And without kicking the frame, because my right foot still hurts from the last time I did that.


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## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> It's difficult to inflect on a forum, which is the subject of the thread...


Agreed. And that makes it all the more important to pay attention to how a post sounds, because we can't really get tone of voice in a post. Instead, we have to pay more attention to our words to convey the tone without tone of voice.


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## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> The principle is the same in how I was taught to kick in NGA. Traditionally, the front foot is taught as a speed kick, so no back foot pivot (from a fighting stance). The rear foot is traditionally taught for power, so a pivot. The pivot taught isn't nearly 180 degrees, but now I have something to tinker with during class this evening. I want to look and see how far my current "natural" pivot actually is, and how far I can currently pivot without changing the kick. And without kicking the frame, because my right foot still hurts from the last time I did that.



For a front kick, no pivot of course although I do have to correct this often. You see it a lot when someone raises their heel off the floor trying to get a higher kick.
For a roundhouse kick, pivot 90° or slightly more. This is more than enough pivot to get the knee pointed past the target so the foot can drive through the target. Stretching the hip flexor is vitally important for speed/power/ease of kick. It is a rotational kick so think about the foot as the arc point.
For a side kick rotate 180°. It is a straight or linear kick so everything has to fully rotate, foot, hips, knees, etc... If you are NOT doing a head level kick It takes less stretch but more strength and balance to correctly perform. IMHO


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## Jaeimseu

dvcochran said:


> For a front kick, no pivot of course although I do have to correct this often. You see it a lot when someone raises their heel off the floor trying to get a higher kick.
> For a roundhouse kick, pivot 90° or slightly more. This is more than enough pivot to get the knee pointed past the target so the foot can drive through the target. Stretching the hip flexor is vitally important for speed/power/ease of kick. It is a rotational kick so think about the foot as the arc point.
> For a side kick rotate 180°. It is a straight or linear kick so everything has to fully rotate, foot, hips, knees, etc... If you are NOT doing a head level kick It takes less stretch but more strength and balance to correctly perform. IMHO



I always teach a pivot, even on a front kick. Of course, it’s not nearly as much of a pivot as for a round kick. 


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