# special forces shovel



## Flea (Sep 21, 2009)

I was introduced to this for the first time in my class on Saturday and I fell in love with it!  It would be very practical for me because I do a lot of camping.  And, well, you know ... :angel:

I've shopped around a little online, but the only brand name that keeps coming up is Cold Steel.  Are they any good?  Surely there are other companies out there that make them?

If anyone can recommend a good brand for these, or maybe a good set of reviews, I'd appreciate it.


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## Xinglu (Sep 21, 2009)

Try looking for "e-tool" or "entrenching tool" that is what the american military calls it, and that should be easy to find


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## Omar B (Sep 21, 2009)

Ah, the entrenching tool.  What a nasty little bit of utility that is.


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## Carol (Sep 21, 2009)

Glock makes one as well.  Also they are easy to find at an Army/Navy store.


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## jks9199 (Sep 21, 2009)

Yep; I keep one in most of my vehicles, especially in the winter.  Useful tool....

One note -- if you get the folding version, don't go too cheap.  I've found that some of the cheaper ones don't tighten up and lock as well as one might like.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 21, 2009)

yep, I'm in the e-tool camp (obviously), the one in the video looks a bit clunky and you can't even fold it down!


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 21, 2009)

The Marine Corps e-tool is the finest implement every invented.






Special forces?  I dunno.  We used ours to perform high-quality hazing and harassment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrenching_tool


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## Brian King (Sep 22, 2009)

Flea, . For Systema you will not want the folding type of shovels. the cold steel shovel is good to go. It is a bit heavy and the handles are large and round. If you like working with wood you can trim a part of the handles down to fit. Ask around at the your school perhaps someone is a distributor and you can save a few bucks. There are some better shovels out there (better steel) but they are usually more costly (I am thinking of both Russian and Bulgarian from WW1 and some Russian from WW2 era). I recommend you getting two. One live and sharpened (not razor sharp but sharp enough to easily cut skin and flesh) and the other dulled. You can also get away with getting one shovel (live) and a cover to go with it.

Regards
Brian King


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## Big Don (Sep 22, 2009)

Cold Steel makes some cool stuff. 
I used to have the "Bad Axe". 
One night, I got pulled over, and the cop asked if I had any weapons in the car. I had the "Bad Axe" and a shotgun in the trunk. He asked what I paid for the axe and I lied and he paid me $10 more than I paid for it, and wrote me the damned ticket.


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## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The Marine Corps e-tool is the finest implement every invented.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

But do you have a racing spoon?

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=26270.html

Bill I know you'll get this but

Warning do not open this site if easily offended by squaddie humour.


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## lklawson (Sep 22, 2009)

This year at the Cumann Bhata WMA "Recreational Violence" seminar, Randal Gustitis taught a class on the russian method of shovel/e-tool.

I shot video if anyone is interested, I'll DVD it. (actually, I have video of EVERY class for EVERY year - German Longsword, Spear, Tomahawk, Pugilism, Shillelagh, Shasqa... the list is long)

But the short of it is, it's kinda like a short axe, but if that's *all *you use it as then you are cheating yourself out of a lot of really interesting and useful application.  There's some very nifty slicing, balance manipulation, and hooking on top of the usual "chop and thrust" type stuff.

I suspect that a lot of Cinqeada (and Gladius) work would translate almost directly.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Omar B (Sep 22, 2009)

The one Fiskars makes is great.


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## Korppi76 (Sep 22, 2009)

My friends liked their Fiskars folding shovel while they were in army. (It was lighter than the earlier version)
I had older version while I was in army. When I got it one side was so sharp you could use it as an axe


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## Flea (Sep 22, 2009)

Thanks everyone.  From what I've seen I prefer the KISS principle; the more parts it has, the more can go wrong.  That, and if it has the capacity to fold, it has the capacity to fold when I don't want it to.

It's good to know about all the available designs though, and fun to think about how adaptable a simple frammis like a shovel can be.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Sep 22, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The Marine Corps e-tool is the finest implement every invented.


 
Ahhh...the Marines make everything fun!!!


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## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> Ahhh...the Marines make everything fun!!!


 
Ah you've met the Royal Marine Commandos then.... :ultracool


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## dianhsuhe (Sep 22, 2009)

The "E Tool" is not exclusive to the Special Forces, it is standard issue in Army Basic Combat Training.

FYI


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Sep 22, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Ah you've met the Royal Marine Commandos then.... :ultracool


 
I wish...***drool***


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## Xinglu (Sep 23, 2009)

Flea said:


> Thanks everyone.  From what I've seen I prefer the KISS principle; the more parts it has, the more can go wrong.  That, and if it has the capacity to fold, it has the capacity to fold when I don't want it to.





dianhsuhe said:


> The "E Tool" is not exclusive to the Special Forces, it is standard issue in Army Basic Combat Training.
> 
> FYI




Roger that, and I never once had a problem with the folding mechanisms failing on me.  They are made FOR combat after all.  It's not like the military is issued cheesy e-tools.


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## Carol (Sep 23, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Roger that, and I never once had a problem with the folding mechanisms failing on me.  They are made FOR combat after all.  It's not like the military is issued cheesy e-tools.



True, but not all folding e-tools on the open market are mil spec.


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## jks9199 (Sep 23, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> True, but not all folding e-tools on the open market are mil spec.


And I did specify "cheaper ones."  Get the mid to better grade ones, and you're fine.  Actual mil-spec, no problem.  But the cheapest?  Tolerances just aren't quite there...


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## Knives (Sep 23, 2009)

jeeze. thats awesome!


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## lklawson (Sep 23, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> They are made FOR combat after all.  It's not like the military is issued cheesy e-tools.


Perhaps not deliberately.  But the various militaries of the world, the U.S. included, have a general policy of "good enough" instead of "the best ever made by man!" and a long history of "oops!" 

In the U.S. alone, as just a couple of examples, there is the mucking around with the original specs of the M16, issuing the .38 LC revolver in the Philippines, and issuing the frech Chauchat jam-o-matic to troops in WWI.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Xinglu (Sep 23, 2009)

lklawson said:


> Perhaps not deliberately.  But the various militaries of the world, the U.S. included, have a general policy of "good enough" instead of "the best ever made by man!" and a long history of "oops!"
> 
> In the U.S. alone, as just a couple of examples, there is the mucking around with the original specs of the M16, issuing the .38 LC revolver in the Philippines, and issuing the frech Chauchat jam-o-matic to troops in WWI.


 The M16A1 had major problems out of the gate that were addressed and fixed unfortunately it cost a lot of lives for that to happen.  Fortunately those mistakes were not made with the M16A2 or the M16A4.  Seems the Military learns from their mistakes as of late regarding weapon failure 

Furthermore with the e-tool I have never seen, experienced or even heard of a folding mechanism failure (barring unforeseen circumstances for which it was never designed to be used).  Since part of the e-tool's function is H2H combat it was designed to function well for that.  In face I will go so far as to say the Fiskars e-tool is the finest ever made thus far.  The Gerber is a good alternative as well.



Carol Kaur said:


> True, but not all folding e-tools on the open market are mil spec.


Correct. Which is why if you want to use it for potential combat and not just camping trips, then you should buy Fiskars or Gerber, and my recommendation is the Fiskars.  The screw thread locking mechanism is dang near bullet proof and can take a ridiculous amount of abuse, more than you'd ever give in H2H, ensuring there is no failure of the folding mechanism.  I beat the hell out of mine and never once did it ever fail me, so when I ETS'd I got a new one, and it will work perfectly long after I'm dead!


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## lklawson (Sep 23, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> The M16A1 had major problems out of the gate that were addressed and fixed unfortunately it cost a lot of lives for that to happen.  Fortunately those mistakes were not made with the M16A2 or the M16A4.  Seems the Military learns from their mistakes as of late regarding weapon failure
> 
> Furthermore with the e-tool I have never seen, experienced or even heard of a folding mechanism failure (barring unforeseen circumstances for which it was never designed to be used).  Since part of the e-tool's function is H2H combat it was designed to function well for that.!


My point being, of course, that simply saying that "the military" designed and issued it "for combat" doesn't necessarily mean that it "isn't cheesy."  It very well might be, at least until the design flaw gets noted and (eventually) fixed.  Government Issue doesn't mean, "best in the word" it means that a committee or someone with lots of brass has vetted or pushed the design.  Hopefully, as is *usually* the case, eventually, through actual use, if there are flaws they will be addressed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian King (Sep 23, 2009)

For Systema practice it is far better in my opinion to keep your tools simple. For the shovel there are a number of applications Flea will be learning to do with a shovel that the simple cold steel type of spetz shovel will excel at, while other types can be usually be made to work but neither as efficiently nor as well in my experiences. There are reasons that the design has lasted so many decades and is a favorite of those that use these tools in serious environments and circumstances. 


Regards
Brian King


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## Flea (Sep 23, 2009)

Timing is everything ... I had my index finger poised over The Button of the amazon.com shopping cart when I came back to this thread.  They classify it as camping equipment, so I can get a great deal on it with autumn coming on!

My other remaining question as a hopeless noob is ... what do I sharpen it with?    It seems silly to pay a shipping fee twice after all when I can place a single order and be done with it.


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## Brian King (Sep 24, 2009)

Flea, most cold steel shovels come factory pre sharpened. They usually are not razor sharp (more of a working edge) but that is usually a good thing depending on what you are planning on using the shovel for. If you are going to train with it you either need it dulled or get a cover for it. Even the factory edged ones can easily cut and cut deeply. If you wish a sharper edge any kind of knife shop can sharpen them. I use a couple of places that clean and sharpen the edges of some of mine. They usually charge about five dollars. If you want to do it yourself a metal file will work but takes some time, a dermal tool works well as does any mechanical grinder. These are tools and should be treated as such. The more that you can handle it and get to know it the better in my opinion, this includes maintenance. 

Regards
Brian King


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## Xinglu (Sep 24, 2009)

lklawson said:


> My point being, of course, that simply saying that "the military" designed and issued it "for combat" doesn't necessarily mean that it "isn't cheesy."  It very well might be, at least until the design flaw gets noted and (eventually) fixed.  Government Issue doesn't mean, "best in the word" it means that a committee or someone with lots of brass has vetted or pushed the design.  Hopefully, as is *usually* the case, eventually, through actual use, if there are flaws they will be addressed.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Ah, but I never said the military made them, Fiskars makes them :wink:. I think you might have misunderstood me, and for that I apologize I will attempt to clarify I said they were made for Combat.  I was also very specific, I said the military doesn't issue cheesy e-tools.  I said nothing of other equipment.  Here is the post so you can re-read what I said, I feel that I was very specific, but if I was unclear I do apologize. 

The rest we agree on. 

Having used the e-tool that was issued to me extensively, I am of the opinion that it is the best in the world.  Next to my weapon, it was one of my favorite pieces of equipment.


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## Hudson69 (Sep 24, 2009)

I dont know about where to get one, Army surplus should work, but I hear that Russion Special Forces, Spetsnaz, are the masters of the "E-tool" and are quite evil with it...........  might be a good training resource in this area.


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## Darrin Cook (Dec 10, 2009)

The latest US army combatives manual has e-tool techniques. You can find the manuals online via a search. (I got mine at selfdefenseresource.com)

Look in section FM 3-25.150, page 7-29.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 14, 2009)

Flea said:


> Timing is everything ... I had my index finger poised over The Button of the amazon.com shopping cart when I came back to this thread.  They classify it as camping equipment, so I can get a great deal on it with autumn coming on!
> 
> My other remaining question as a hopeless noob is ... what do I sharpen it with?    It seems silly to pay a shipping fee twice after all when I can place a single order and be done with it.



For sharpening, Start with a file, and work the edge at a reasonable angle. If you are new to sharpening, try to maintain the existing bevel angle. Keep filing until the edge is uniformly sharp along the entire edge. From there you can proceed either with a fine file, or a cheap sharpening stone such as you can buy in virtually every hardware store. Depending on the stone you use it with oil or water.

An alternative would be to glue some sandpaper for metal sanding to a straight piece of wood, and use that to polish the edge. That should make it sharp enough for all practical purposes. I did this with my garden shovel and in a quick test I could cut through a tree root that was slightly over 2 inches thick, with little effort. Making it any sharper than that is silly, since the steel is relatively soft and will not hold a razors edge. Plus if you are going to actually use it as a shovel, that razor edge would be gone quickly.


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## chinto (Jan 12, 2010)

I have had the cold steel special forces shovel in my car and carried it camping and hiking as both tool and weapon for over 2 years.  great tool and weapon.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 29, 2010)

Entrenching tools are decent improvised weapons if you want a shovel to do double duty.

Since I never go camping without my sharpened double bit cruiser axe, though, I don't ever see needing to repel borders with a shovel (even assuming I run out of ammunition).


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## Skpotamus (Jan 29, 2010)

My grandpa served in the Philippines during WW2.  They did a lot of e tool work with his unit (one of the last mounted cavalry units, eventually they got folded into rifle squads).  They pretty much told them that to sharpen it, simply dig, it'll stay keep it's own edge and stay sharp enough to cut when you swing or jab with it.  To use it, simply dig.  Use two hands to dig into your opponent, or you can swing it like a club.  

The local army suprlus shops around me have etools in them for under $15, of course, it looks like you can get the sf shovel for about 18 on knifecenter.


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