# Self-defense against a friend, or any other person you ordinarily wouldn't want hurt



## Carol (Nov 14, 2013)

How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?  

Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff.  Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.

You want to protect yourself, or distance your friend from another person....but you might not want to resort to the rock-em-sock-em-break-their-face stuff because you know they are not being themselves.

Does your training prepare you for this sort of thing?  Just curious


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## Koshiki (Nov 14, 2013)

Calling all grapplers, Standing and Ground, calling all grapplers!

This is where mainly striking focused arts tend to fall down, I feel. Strikes either have to hurt, or to do structural damage to be at all effective, basically, unless you feel skillful enough to just keep herding someone around without making real contact until they calm down a bit. I only see that working if you're a long range striker, too. I bet a good WTF guy could keep an angry me at bay for a while. If you rely on elbows and shoulders and forearms and knees, I think you'll have trouble. I did have success calming down a normally serene (but at the time very drunk) friend once with a solid but not penetrating celiac plexus thump. Could just as easily have pissed him off, but he's not the kind of guy who's used to getting hit. At all.

Grappling, of any sort, on the other hand, is MUCH more about positioning and control. You can grapple people into positions where they can't hurt you, can't escape, but are also in no sort of physical danger or pain.

I would say, the more grappling/controlling in your system, the better you can deal. The more you rely on striking, the more likely you are to either hurt or get hurt.

Also, if you practice Iaido, I bet you could get them to stay away pretty well...


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 14, 2013)

Frankly, I'd use the same techniques on them that I use on out of control people in the ER (OK, probably not including the sedation...). They may be unhappy, but they'll stop fighting. 
Mainly a combination of joint locks and pressure points.


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## Takai (Nov 14, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Mainly a combination of joint locks and pressure points.



That was along my line of thinking as well. Cause pain and gain compliance.


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## punisher73 (Nov 14, 2013)

I have only trained in karate (striking) and it's traditional methods and I have ALWAYS been taught how to use appropriate force in a situation like that.  My first instructor used to always teach techniques "for your drunk uncle charlie" that would control but not injure the person.

In fact, one of the first fights I had when I started training was against my drunk roommate who wanted to "see how tough I was" since I trained in karate.  I checked one of his kicks and when he went to punch I parried it and moved off angle and pushed him into the wall.  He lost his balance and slid to the floor and then cowered up about "not hurting him".  Even though I had only trained in a "striking art", I was still taught the tools within that to not have to hurt him.

I think that is one of the misnomers about striking TMA's.  They do teach stand-up control tactics within their striking methods.  The same can't be said of a pure sport oriented striking art (boxing/kickboxing).


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## jks9199 (Nov 14, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Calling all grapplers, Standing and Ground, calling all grapplers!
> 
> This is where mainly striking focused arts tend to fall down, I feel. Strikes either have to hurt, or to do structural damage to be at all effective, basically, unless you feel skillful enough to just keep herding someone around without making real contact until they calm down a bit. I only see that working if you're a long range striker, too. I bet a good WTF guy could keep an angry me at bay for a while. If you rely on elbows and shoulders and forearms and knees, I think you'll have trouble. I did have success calming down a normally serene (but at the time very drunk) friend once with a solid but not penetrating celiac plexus thump. Could just as easily have pissed him off, but he's not the kind of guy who's used to getting hit. At all.
> 
> ...



Have you actually tried restraining someone who's actually fighting, and drunk or merely in a blind rage?  It's a lot harder than you think, no matter how much you think you know.  

Restraining with minimal harm is a regular issue for me, not surprisingly.  There's no easy way, there's no magic trick (though Taser's can be fantastic!) to do it.  Strikes, grappling (standing and ground), throws... they all have a place in the puzzle.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 14, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Have you actually tried restraining someone who's actually fighting, and drunk or merely in a blind rage?  It's a lot harder than you think, no matter how much you think you know.
> 
> Restraining with minimal harm is a regular issue for me, not surprisingly.  There's no easy way, there's no magic trick (though Taser's can be fantastic!) to do it.  Strikes, grappling (standing and ground), throws... they all have a place in the puzzle.



I'll add one more component. Overwhelming  numbers. It is almost always helpful in these situations to have 6-8 people on your side.

I don't get a Taser. But I do have a defibrillator...


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## donald1 (Nov 14, 2013)

In my opinion i prefer to avoid hurting anyone if possible,  if you are put in a situation where your friend or someone like that.  To put it short a "friend" wouldn't put you in that situation so for me it wouldn't be hard


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## chinto (Nov 14, 2013)

Okinawan karate teaches locks and throws and grapples for such situations when taught properly. It always has.  the trick is to tell when a situation such as that is so out of control that you may have to damage them to stop them from something. ( yes this means grappler types to!)  but locks and pressure points and things that Okinawan Karate and other arts have always taught usually will do the job.  ( often if they will not its a situation where the person is using a drug/substance that has rendered a lot of responses noneffective do to the effects of it!)  in that case well depending it may literally be a matter of survival to stop them with damage..


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## K-man (Nov 15, 2013)

Carol said:


> How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?
> 
> Does your training prepare you for this sort of thing?  Just curious


Every session.
:asian:


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## punisher73 (Nov 15, 2013)

I forgot to add, I always teach my students that every situation should have an "AMP response".

A=Aggressive
M=Moderate
P=Passive

For example, person grabs your right wrist (yeah, I know but it's a good starting point to illustrate) with their right hand.

Passive response is just doing your basic wrist escape by twisting and removing your hand by going against their thumb/grip.  It is passive because I have broken the grip, but I haven't DONE anything as far as doing something to them or improving my position.

Moderate response is after the grab occurs,  I counter grab and move in.  This bends their elbow and I put my left hand on their elbow and rotate the hand/elbow which bends them over (think Aikido's Ikkyu).  I still havent' hurt them, but I have put them in a position to protect myself and control them.

Aggressive response.  Let's say that they do the grab and are getting ready to punch with the other hand.  I don't worry about the grab so much as resort to striking them first and then do one of the two responses (or something else) to improve or escape the position.  The big difference is that I AM trying to inflict pain/injury to them.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 15, 2013)

Everything I've ever trained in has had a scalable response.


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## Hanzou (Nov 15, 2013)

Carol said:


> How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?
> 
> Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff.  Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.
> 
> ...




I agree with Zack that grappling (Bjj, Judo, Wrestling) can be extremely useful if you're trying to not hurt someone. For example, if your drunk uncle is being a jerk, you can put him in a Scarf Hold/Kesa Gatame. If he keeps being a jerk, you can do slight modifications to make the pin more uncomfortable leading up to a possible shoulder break, or a choke. Even more simply, you could use grappling to maintain a superior position during the entire altercation.

Part of the reason I chose Bjj over other arts was for its ability to lock and hold people in place without hurting them. I wasn't disappointed.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 15, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Also, if you practice Iaido, I bet you could get them to stay away pretty well...



:angel: :ninja:


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## SENC-33 (Nov 15, 2013)

You take somebody (a drunk obnoxious friend) to the ground and put him in a lock of some sort and then what? You make him yell uncle or else you will snap his elbow?

Pop him in the solar plexus "just enough" to send the message. This is a strike you can easily control the punishing effects


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2013)

I don't like to rely on any sort of pain compliance techniques since the pain threshold of different individuals can vary widely (especially under the influence of alcohol or adrenaline).  Joint locks are for causing structural damage - if you apply a lock for the purpose of pain compliance and the subject doesn't comply you are left with the options of letting them go or breaking something.  If you're dealing with your drunk uncle at a party this is probably less than ideal.

Wrestling, judo, and BJJ all contain methods for pinning someone without damaging them.  You can make the pin as uncomfortable as you like and drain their energy until they have no steam to fight without inflicting any actual damage.


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## Instructor (Nov 15, 2013)

I call this the gray area in use of force treaty.  It's an area that Hapkido excels at  we have tons of moves that get the job done without destroying the person.


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## K-man (Nov 15, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Wrestling, judo, and BJJ all contain methods for pinning someone without damaging them.  You can make the pin as uncomfortable as you like and drain their energy until they have no steam to fight without inflicting any actual damage.


As do most other MAs if taught properly.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2013)

K-man said:


> As do most other MAs if taught properly.



I guess it depends on what you mean by "if taught properly."  Based on my exposure to a number of arts over the years, many of them do not seem to have much in that department.  If you discount pinning techniques which depend on joint locks and/or pain compliance (for the reasons I mentioned) then the arts which have much in the way of non-damaging pinning methods seem like they are in a definite minority.

I'm open to correction.  If practitioners of TKD, Wing Chun, Iado, etc want to join the thread and explain how they train to pin/restrain someone without relying on joint-locks or pain compliance, then I'm all ears.


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## Instructor (Nov 15, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I guess it depends on what you mean by "if taught properly." Based on my exposure to a number of arts over the years, many of them do not seem to have much in that department. If you discount pinning techniques which depend on joint locks and/or pain compliance (for the reasons I mentioned) then the arts which have much in the way of non-damaging pinning methods seem like they are in a definite minority.
> 
> I'm open to correction. If practitioners of TKD, Wing Chun, Iado, etc want to join the thread and explain how they train to pin/restrain someone without relying on joint-locks or pain compliance, then I'm all ears.



Well I can't do it.  Joint manipulation and balance disruption is the name of our game.  Once down though I've successfully restrained a crazed person by simply wrapping my belt around there wrists (behind their back) and waiting for the police to arrive.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2013)

Instructor said:


> Well I can't do it.  Joint manipulation and balance disruption is the name of our game.  Once down though I've successfully restrained a crazed person by simply wrapping my belt around there wrists (behind their back) and waiting for the police to arrive.



Well, balance disruption is definitely a core skill in getting someone to a place where you can pin them.  I guess tying them up with your belt could count as hojojutsu. Maybe you should add that art to your resume.


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## K-man (Nov 15, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I guess it depends on what you mean by "if taught properly."  Based on my exposure to a number of arts over the years, many of them do not seem to have much in that department.  If you discount pinning techniques which depend on joint locks and/or pain compliance (for the reasons I mentioned) then the arts which have much in the way of non-damaging pinning methods seem like they are in a definite minority.
> 
> I'm open to correction.  If practitioners of TKD, Wing Chun, Iado, etc want to join the thread and explain how they train to pin/restrain someone without relying on joint-locks or pain compliance, then I'm all ears.


My main areas of practice are aikido and karate. Aikido has a number of pins and holds that do not rely on pain, same for my karate which is traditional, not sport based. In the other areas within my sphere, Systema has all of Aikido's principles so it too has the same techniques. I can't speak for the others but I suspect many of the other guys would say the same for their styles too.
:asian:


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2013)

K-man said:


> My main areas of practice are aikido and karate. Aikido has a number of pins and holds that do not rely on pain, same for my karate which is traditional, not sport based. In the other areas within my sphere, Systema has all of Aikido's principles so it too has the same techniques. I can't speak for the others but I suspect many of the other guys would say the same for their styles too.
> :asian:



Can you point me to some video of karate techniques for pinning someone without using joint locks? I'd love to see what they look like.


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## CK1980 (Nov 15, 2013)

For a friend, I tend to use the same techniques I would use for anyone else...  Because of what I do IRL, I know that there are always going to be spectators...  So, clocking someone in the jaw or delivering a well placed round kick to their knee isn't the BEST course of action...  So, I try to subdue the friend using grappling techniques without the "incidental contact" that happens with someone who I couldn't care less about actually putting in a little pain.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 15, 2013)

Interesting topic.  Locally there is a 17 yr old on trial for murder.  Story is 3 teens were out getting high and the one started acting out like the drunk uncle so to speak.  The 17 yr old was trying to calm him down and pin him down but he ended up choking him to death


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## CK1980 (Nov 15, 2013)

Choke holds are a very effective, very dangerous technique indeed...  There is that pivotal moment when the subject passes out when the choke must be released or the subject becomes a victim...  

The way it was explained to me is you can apply the hold in 3 secs, the subject will pass out in 5 secs, the subject will die in 7 secs.  That's only 15 secs from beginning to end!

While I can understand why the friend did it, he will probably be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter- he just needs to prove his intent was to subdue and not kill.


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## Carol (Nov 15, 2013)

If the young man was high himself, he might not have had proper judgement about him.  Sad story.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 15, 2013)

For some unlikely input from an Iaido practitioner, we don't mess around subduing opponents.  

We draw, we cut, bits come off.  End of story.  That is the whole underlying point of Iai - lethal response to surprise attack in a non-battlefield setting.

The only way I would attempt to control someone is by placing my kissaki in the most evident place possible for the stupidly aggressive 'friend' to contemplate and hope he had the sense to realise that if he tries to reach me he is going to die.

Well, to be fair, there are some strikes that can be done using the saya with the katana undrawn but I wouldn't rely on them to do much to someone who is already out of control.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 15, 2013)

CK1980 said:


> Choke holds are a very effective, very dangerous technique indeed...  There is that pivotal moment when the subject passes out when the choke must be released or the subject becomes a victim...
> 
> The way it was explained to me is you can apply the hold in 3 secs, the subject will pass out in 5 secs, the subject will die in 7 secs.  That's only 15 secs from beginning to end!
> 
> While I can understand why the friend did it, he will probably be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter- he just needs to prove his intent was to subdue and not kill.


I think the murder charge stems from what they did afterhe died tthen the death itself.  They panicked drove out in middle of nowhere and dumped the body


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## CK1980 (Nov 15, 2013)

Yeah, but that could be handled in a number of ways too...

Failure to report a crime.
Conspiracy to interfere with a criminal investigation.
Conspiracy to destroy evidence in relation to a crime.
etc, etc, etc...

Long story short, there were several mistakes made [nodding]


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## K-man (Nov 15, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Can you point me to some video of karate techniques for pinning someone without using joint locks? I'd love to see what they look like.


There are lots of videos on YouTube.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUD9zI3y1w
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pvH2i2dMID4&feature=plpp&p=PLED0CC886E6D3E679
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3vQwe4AkmQI
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdx5EWuxUs0 (just the first 80 seconds)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oKH0_63JUdA
Although not karate guys here, it is one we do and in a number of the Goju kata:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfARpMdBCwk&desktop_uri=/watch?v=WfARpMdBCwk
Some involve locks and pain but I think you can see from this that grappling is a major part of traditional karate.
:asian:


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## ballen0351 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> For some unlikely input from an Iaido practitioner, we don't mess around subduing opponents.
> 
> We draw, we cut, bits come off.  End of story.  That is the whole underlying point of Iai - lethal response to surprise attack in a non-battlefield setting.
> 
> ...


That's more my take.  Going "easy" on a friend that's not going easy on you is asking to get hurt.  I'll verbally try to calm you down you don't listen and it gets physical your getting struck.  I'll control the first two or three blows to show I'm not playing but after that I'm putting you down.  Better me then the cops arresting your butt


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2013)

K-man said:


> There are lots of videos on YouTube.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4eUD9zI3y1w
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pvH2i2dMID4&feature=plpp&p=PLED0CC886E6D3E679
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3vQwe4AkmQI
> ...



I certainly wouldn't disagree that traditional karate has plenty of grappling, but I was speaking specifically about pinning someone without relying on joint locks.  All the pinning/controlling methods in those videos are using joint locks (except for the two videos where Abernethy demonstrates some judo groundwork.  (He explicitly says in the text for the first video that the ground techniques come from judo and he does not make any claims that they come from karate.)

This is not to say that the joint locks are necessarily bad techniques - just that when using them you have to be prepared to actually inflict some structural damage.


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## K-man (Nov 15, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I certainly wouldn't disagree that traditional karate has plenty of grappling, but I was speaking specifically about pinning someone without relying on joint locks.  All the pinning/controlling methods in those videos are using joint locks (except for the two videos where Abernethy demonstrates some judo groundwork.  (He explicitly says in the text for the first video that the ground techniques come from judo and he does not make any claims that they come from karate.)
> 
> This is not to say that the joint locks are necessarily bad techniques - just that when using them you have to be prepared to actually inflict some structural damage.


I had to cross train and research extensively to reach my current understanding and I am sure I have many years of research ahead. Judo techniques came from jujutsu. Here is an interesting comment on jujutsu.



> When Kentsu Yabu came to Hawaii he was asked what the difference was between Karate (which then meant "China Hand") and Ju Jutsu. His reply was remarkable. Think about Ju Jutsu for a moment. Its curriculum is vast. Yabu answered that Ju Jutsu was only 10% of Karate. This was more than an idle boast. We know today that pre-public school system Karate had a comprehensive grappling element, often called Tegumi or Tuite.
> 
> 
> Just to give context, Kentsu Yabu (1866-1937) was one of our Okinawan masters of karate who, according to Shoshin Nagamine's Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters, was a "senior disciple" of another Okinawan karate master, Itosu Anko.
> http://quantumkarateka.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/overload.html


There are only a finite number of ways of twisting and locking the human body. All of those ways are found in all of the old unarmed martial arts. 

Because so few instructors have the knowledge of guys like Iain Abernethy you need to watch other styles to understand and recognise where a lot of those techniques come into the karate kata. Tegumi is an important part of my training and an integral part of my students' grading requirement. The techniques don't 'come from' wrestling, judo or jujutsu. They were always there but mostly lost when karate was taken into the schools and turned into sport. In karate they mostly don't have names just as nothing else had names until Westerners started demanding names after WWII. Prior to that it was just 'do this'.
:asian:


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## CK1980 (Nov 16, 2013)

LOL...  I remember one of my instructors saying one time that he never wanted a student to not be able to recognize what they were doing by name...  He said nothing was worse than seeing someone try to explain what they were doing in their school by saying "I don't know what its called, but we do this".

I also remember another of my instructors saying that some of the stuff we associate with a block and perhaps even call a block was actually meant to be a strike.  But an onlooker who didn't know what they were seeing associated the strike with a block.  This was an explanation of his principle that every strike is a block and every block is a strike...  It was shortly after that, he taught me that when doing an outside forearm block to focus not so much on stopping my opponents strike, but instead to try to put my forearm through his as if I was striking with my forearm...  My blocks became tremendously better as a result and I found that after a couple wide strikes, my opponent didn't necessarily want to try to hit me like that anymore...


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## Koshiki (Nov 16, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Have you actually tried restraining someone who's actually fighting, and drunk or merely in a blind rage?  It's a lot harder than you think, no matter how much you think you know.



Not a seriously enraged, blind-with-anger person, no. But a couple of times just a pissed person lashing out, who calmed down, once with a wrist crunch and a arm lock (yes, against the joints.) Last weekend with simple arm control, no locks, but that was a woman, over whom I had a height, possibly weight, and DEFINITELY sobriety advantage. If someone was beyond a brief flash of violent anger, it would obviously be a great deal more difficult. I think a judgement call needs to be made, as to whether or not this is a friend trying to truly assault (try to ditch the concept of friend and do whatever is necessary) or whether someone is just tweaking out for a few seconds. (Try to restrain and avoid causing any structural damage, and hopefully any intense pain.) I think strikes have more place in the true assault, then in the angry spat.



SENC-33 said:


> You take somebody (a drunk obnoxious friend) to the ground and put him in a lock of some sort and then what? You make him yell uncle or else you will snap his elbow?
> 
> Pop him in the solar plexus "just enough" to send the message. This is a strike you can easily control the punishing effects



As to the lock, yes. Essentially, hold him until he calms down, and then a little longer. Then relax a bit but maintain control, see if he has really given in. THEN, maybe risk letting go. If the person isn't just momentarily pissed, then all bets are off, and you should try to minimize the effects of your affection, and just defend as aggressively as you would want to if it were a stranger. As to the solar plexus hit, I agree! I already mentioned that that has once worked for me.

I was under the impression that the original post was talking about dealing with someone momentarily out of control, who you know well, and who you think is not truly dangerous, but will calm down in short order. A truly dangerous person should be dealt with as swiftly as possible, no matter your relationship. In my opinion, once you've tried to hurt someone, you lose any claim to perquisites of friendship.



Tony Dismukes said:


> If practitioners of TKD, Wing Chun, Iado, etc want to join the thread and explain how they train to pin/restrain someone without relying on joint-locks or pain compliance, then I'm all ears.





Tony Dismukes said:


> Can you point me to some video of karate techniques for pinning someone without using joint locks? I'd love to see what they look like.



Old style, pre-KTA/ITF/WTF TKD kid guy here already. (So basically Shotokan with a few more kicks...) _Most _of our controlling is more based on locks (read: breaks). The thing about TKD and Karate, is that you basically have a kata-textbook of ways in which the body moves effectively and with control and power, and it's up to you to interpret them as you will. Truly _studying_ kata, rather than just performing or training the movements, leads you to a variety of striking, manipulating, throwing, locking, off-setting, and also control without locking. For me, kata tends to lend itself MORE to locking/controlling/otherwise manipulating than it does to striking. There are only so many ways to control someone effectively, and most arts that work in close with grappling seem to arrive at the same ones.

To be fair, the way my system approaches TKD is probably closer to the way people practice Okinawan Karate styles, than the way most people practice TKD. I don't know how to restrain someone with a jump kick!

Win Chun, I don't know. Most of their restraining seems to be trapping an arm for a fraction of a second.



Sukerkin said:


> For some unlikely input from an Iaido practitioner, we don't mess around subduing opponents.
> ...
> The only way I would attempt to control someone is by placing my kissaki in the most evident place possible for the stupidly aggressive 'friend' to contemplate and hope he had the sense to realise that if he tries to reach me he is going to die.



When _I_ mentioned Iaido, I was hoping that flashing three feet of curved razor in front of a sane person might be enough to get them to back off...!



Tony Dismukes said:


> This is not to say that the joint locks are necessarily bad techniques - just that when using them you have to be prepared to actually inflict some structural damage.



I'd say the typical arm-bar (a joint lock) can effectively restrain someone for a lengthy period of time, without inflicting real damage, unless the other person is really crazed. If they're really crazed, snap, follow-up, and disengage. All bets are off, I don't care how much you like the guy...

As I recall, Gichin Funakoshi even mentions in his autobiography that Karate kata should be applied to the ground as well, and in as many different ways as possible. My TKD school has two-person drills containing nearly BJJ identical arm bars dating back from the mid 20th century at least, as well as chokes, head controls, locks...


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## DennisBreene (Nov 16, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> For some unlikely input from an Iaido practitioner, we don't mess around subduing opponents.
> 
> We draw, we cut, bits come off.  End of story.  That is the whole underlying point of Iai - lethal response to surprise attack in a non-battlefield setting.
> 
> ...



I personally would find bits being cut off as very subduing.  I guess the being subdued unto death might be perceived as a less than friendly response.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 16, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Old style, pre-KTA/ITF/WTF TKD kid guy here already. (So basically Shotokan with a few more kicks...) _Most _of our controlling is more based on locks (read: breaks). The thing about TKD and Karate, is that you basically have a kata-textbook of ways in which the body moves effectively and with control and power, and it's up to you to interpret them as you will. Truly _studying_ kata, rather than just performing or training the movements, leads you to a variety of striking, manipulating, throwing, locking, off-setting, and also control without locking. For me, kata tends to lend itself MORE to locking/controlling/otherwise manipulating than it does to striking. There are only so many ways to control someone effectively, and most arts that work in close with grappling seem to arrive at the same ones.
> 
> To be fair, the way my system approaches TKD is probably closer to the way people practice Okinawan Karate styles, than the way most people practice TKD. I don't know how to restrain someone with a jump kick!
> 
> ..



That mirrors my old school Tang Soo Do training (with bits of Kajukempo interspersed).  Joint locks could be precursors to take downs and throws. I would defer to those who have used these techniques outside of the training environment, however. I have had no occasion to use any of the techniques in a real situation and I absolutely concede that experience trumps theory in this discussion.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 17, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> When _I_ mentioned Iaido, I was hoping that flashing three feet of curved razor in front of a sane person might be enough to get them to back off...!



:chuckles:  I would too :nods: .  But you would be surprised how people don't make the sensible choice sometimes even when it's blindingly obvious .  In the case of a sword, especially one like a katana, I don't think people who don't use them really realise just how dangerous they are.  I think everyone who has practised Iai and progressed to using live blades has cut themselves at some point or other ... and that's with our own swords :lol:.


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## seasoned (Nov 17, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> :chuckles: I would too :nods: . But you would be surprised how people don't make the sensible choice sometimes even when it's blindingly obvious . In the case of a sword, especially one like a katana, I don't think people who don't use them really realise just how dangerous they are. I think everyone who has practised Iai and progressed to using live blades has cut themselves at some point or other ... and that's with our own swords :lol:.



It has been said the biggest battle lies with ones self. I can only assume that at these self cutting times you may have lost that battle, for that day........I think I'll stick to karate.  :rofl:


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## Koshiki (Nov 17, 2013)

DennisBreene said:


> I personally would find bits being cut off as very subduing.  I guess the being subdued unto death might be perceived as a less than friendly response.



Hold, ye scurvy curr, a'fore I subdue ye to death!!!



seasoned said:


> It has been said the biggest battle lies with ones self. I can only assume that at these self cutting times you may have lost that battle, for that day........I think I'll stick to karate.  :rofl:



I dunno, my primary instructor always trained with sharped Kama. In our kama kata the blades often slice very close and parallel to each other, in opposite directions. The blades of both his kama are completely serrated at this point, from all the times he's misjudged and clashed them together over the past forty something years. The wooden ends of them are likewise tattered and splintered and shredded from the occasional mistake. His knuckles... He's got a fair few reasonably impressive scars there, from the mistakes that didn't hit blade or handle... Yikes!


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## K-man (Nov 17, 2013)

I've never involved myself in Iaido. It looks far too dangerous to me.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gXY9TuuwyL8&desktop_uri=/watch?v=gXY9TuuwyL8

:asian:


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## seasoned (Nov 17, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Hold, ye scurvy curr, a'fore I subdue ye to death!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno, my primary instructor always trained with sharped Kama. In our kama kata the blades often slice very close and parallel to each other, in opposite directions. The blades of both his kama are completely serrated at this point, from all the times he's misjudged and clashed them together over the past forty something years. The wooden ends of them are likewise tattered and splintered and shredded from the occasional mistake. His knuckles... He's got a fair few reasonably impressive scars there, from the mistakes that didn't hit blade or handle... Yikes!


Many years age I had a close friend that didn't fair very well at a tournament. After declaring "live blade" to the judges in the beginning of his kata and while he was standing within a few feet of them, he brought the Kama down from his shoulder along his arm a bit close and cut the back of his hand. As the blood shot on the two middle judges, he continued the kata to the end. From there he went straight to the hospital. We were always taught that if you start your kata you always finish no matter what..........


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## MJS (Nov 18, 2013)

Carol said:


> How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?
> 
> Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff.  Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.
> 
> ...



Nice topic! 

Yes, this is where having some experience with an art that focuses on grappling, locking, controlling, etc methods, is very important.  BJJ, FMAs, Jujitsu, etc, would IMO, be much better to deal with what you describe above.


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## frank raud (Nov 18, 2013)

CK1980 said:


> Choke holds are a very effective, very dangerous technique indeed...  There is that pivotal moment when the subject passes out when the choke must be released or the subject becomes a victim...
> 
> The way it was explained to me is you can apply the hold in 3 secs, the subject will pass out in 5 secs, the subject will die in 7 secs.  That's only 15 secs from beginning to end!
> 
> While I can understand why the friend did it, he will probably be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter- he just needs to prove his intent was to subdue and not kill.



It always makes me nervous to see a timeline stated for how long it takes for a choke to take effect. Everyone reacts differently. If you are counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi... expecting to let go at 5, you could be in for a shock. Either he is not passed out, and counter attacks, or is so far gone you can't revive him. If you apply a choke, observe the person being choked, and base how long to hold the choke on their reactions, not on a standard timeline.


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## Zero (Nov 18, 2013)

frank raud said:


> It always makes me nervous to see a timeline stated for how long it takes for a choke to take effect. Everyone reacts differently. If you are counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi... expecting to let go at 5, you could be in for a shock. Either he is not passed out, and counter attacks, or is so far gone you can't revive him. If you apply a choke, observe the person being choked, and base how long to hold the choke on their reactions, not on a standard timeline.



Yes, I would be wary if dealing with someone quite gone on the booze of subduing them with a choke, depending on the force required, if they do pass out and stop breathing it might be a real problem getting them to start again!  It might actually be better just chining them with a stirke to the jaw and sending them to the carpet there and then.  I am no doctor but (while it can happen) I have seen plenty KOs where the looser is out for the count but still breathing fine.  But with a neck lock you basically asphixiate the guy, which stops breathing if taken to the extreme (and which can happen very quickly).  Sure, depending on their size you could choose to just keep the lock on but not actually cut up into the jugular or wind pipe and stay on the ground and hope for them to tire and give up - but thay may not happen all too soon if they are hyper.

It's a hard question, as while it may seem improbable, given the circles we are in, it may be a drunk judoka, MAist you need to subdue.  A good friend of mine who trained in karate with me has a brother who was a very good judoka back in the day, national level, he also likes to get tanked and can get quite "boisterous". He is a great guy, outside of that. But even drunk (unless he was completely smashed), he's not the kind of guy you would want to try to "subdue" in a watered down (half on) manner or you'd find yourself thrown through a plate glass window or some sort.  You might put on a wirst or arm lock and find yourself having to go all the way. A broken wrist or shattered elbow doesn't sound too nice at all, I'd much rather a clip to the ol' jaw between "friends" - given that's the topic.  Sure, there is then always the problem of where they fall and what on!  But in a party or even just a few mates at home, when taking someone to the ground it can be difficult to avoid injury when there are tables, glass cabinets, tvs about the place etc.


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## CK1980 (Nov 23, 2013)

frank raud said:


> It always makes me nervous to see a timeline stated for how long it takes for a choke to take effect. Everyone reacts differently. If you are counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi... expecting to let go at 5, you could be in for a shock. Either he is not passed out, and counter attacks, or is so far gone you can't revive him. If you apply a choke, observe the person being choked, and base how long to hold the choke on their reactions, not on a standard timeline.



I would agree with your response there...  I used a timeline more for the sake of showing that- while effective- a choke hold is probably not the best option for subduing someone you consider to not be a threat on your life...  It's a little easier to describe something like that in a term of "seconds" I think.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 5, 2014)

I focus a lot on the "yin" side of wing chun. I have a brother in law who has a very bad temper, often lashing out at the people who try to help him the most. Unlike most people, I don't keep my mouth shut when he starts disrespecting me. He has tried to be physical, and I had to evade and restrain until he got a grip on himself.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2014)

Zero said:


> Yes, I would be wary if dealing with someone quite gone on the booze of subduing them with a choke, depending on the force required, if they do pass out and stop breathing it might be a real problem getting them to start again!  It might actually be better just chining them with a stirke to the jaw and sending them to the carpet there and then.  I am no doctor but (while it can happen) I have seen plenty KOs where the looser is out for the count but still breathing fine.  But with a neck lock you basically asphixiate the guy, which stops breathing if taken to the extreme (and which can happen very quickly).  Sure, depending on their size you could choose to just keep the lock on but not actually cut up into the jugular or wind pipe and stay on the ground and hope for them to tire and give up - but thay may not happen all too soon if they are hyper.
> 
> It's a hard question, as while it may seem improbable, given the circles we are in, it may be a drunk judoka, MAist you need to subdue.  A good friend of mine who trained in karate with me has a brother who was a very good judoka back in the day, national level, he also likes to get tanked and can get quite "boisterous". He is a great guy, outside of that. But even drunk (unless he was completely smashed), he's not the kind of guy you would want to try to "subdue" in a watered down (half on) manner or you'd find yourself thrown through a plate glass window or some sort.  You might put on a wirst or arm lock and find yourself having to go all the way. A broken wrist or shattered elbow doesn't sound too nice at all, I'd much rather a clip to the ol' jaw between "friends" - given that's the topic.  Sure, there is then always the problem of where they fall and what on!  But in a party or even just a few mates at home, when taking someone to the ground it can be difficult to avoid injury when there are tables, glass cabinets, tvs about the place etc.




Lay and pray.

It is a lot harder to deal with a guy who is clamping down but is not trying to gain a position. They don't give as much to work with.

Banned in most competition because nobody can advance and a fight winds up going for twenty minutes with nothing happening.

Perfect for uncle judo though.(well sorta. If the skill difference is extreme then you will still be in trouble)


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

Carol said:


> How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?
> 
> Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff.  Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.
> 
> ...


It does, though with someone you know, if the circumstances have gotten physical, then it is very likely that numerous cues for de-escalation have been missed.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It does, though with someone you know, if the circumstances have gotten physical, then it is very likely that numerous cues for de-escalation have been missed.



I agree, although with my brother in law it isn't a big deal. I evade, get behind him and get him in position for a chokehold, applying only the slightest bit of pressure. I ask him, "Are you done messing around?" But he is ready to give up before I even ask the question because he is quickly reminded that I can handle myself. LOL


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## CNida (Mar 8, 2014)

I can say in all honesty that nothing I have officially trained in has been much good for me.

When dealing with patients at the hospital I dont get to do pain compliance techniques.

What little training I do have is basic submissions on the ground... I have locked someone in a kimuta from side control and found it a good way to restrain someone without harming them, so long as I dont actually crank the arm. Then it looks like I am TRYING to hurt them.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2014)

CK1980 said:


> I would agree with your response there...  I used a timeline more for the sake of showing that- while effective- a choke hold is probably not the best option for subduing someone you consider to not be a threat on your life...  It's a little easier to describe something like that in a term of "seconds" I think.



A choke hold not applied like you want to twist someone's head off is a good high percentage total body restraint. And you can control their head. Which means you can prevent it.

You can use the basic standing sleeper to pretty gently sit someone on the ground.

Where a throw may risk a fall injury or an armlock break the joint.
(Have had that happen to a mate of mine who had a guy in a hammerlock. Guy threw himself trying to kick and broke his own arm)


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2014)

CNida said:


> I can say in all honesty that nothing I have officially trained in has been much good for me.
> 
> When dealing with patients at the hospital I dont get to do pain compliance techniques.
> 
> ...



Have you had much success with a scarf hold head arm triangle thing on the ground? I have a bit of success hitting it from a duck under.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9v0CUnYsVzc

On the ground I sit down rather than take that side control because a hard floor is friendlier on my but than my knees.

Sort of this.


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## CNida (Mar 8, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Have you had much success with a scarf hold head arm triangle thing on the ground? I have a bit of success hitting it from a duck under.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9v0CUnYsVzc
> 
> ...



Ive never been in a situation to need to slap someone in a head and arm. However, in regards to the side control thing... I like to go knees down so i have better control over the patients entire body, i.e. legs and feet. I usually trap an arm under my knee and use the other leg to keep balanced and keep them from rolling us both over.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2014)

CNida said:


> Ive never been in a situation to need to slap someone in a head and arm. However, in regards to the side control thing... I like to go knees down so i have better control over the patients entire body, i.e. legs and feet. I usually trap an arm under my knee and use the other leg to keep balanced and keep them from rolling us both over.
> 
> 
> ____________________________
> ...



Cradle?

Which would be a solid pin.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YyRUlxAwLKE


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## CNida (Mar 8, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Cradle?
> 
> Which would be a solid pin.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YyRUlxAwLKE



No. More like the Salaverry (crucifix?) but only instead of stepping my knee completely over the arm, I place it on the bicep or elbow/forearm to keep that arm from moving and grabbing my tender bits.


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 18, 2014)

Carol said:


> How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?
> 
> Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff.  Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.
> 
> ...



Aikido would be one of the best things to use for this.


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## FatMan (Mar 18, 2014)

CK1980 said:


> ...
> 
> I also remember another of my instructors saying that some of the stuff we associate with a block and perhaps even call a block was actually meant to be a strike.  But an onlooker who didn't know what they were seeing associated the strike with a block.  This was an explanation of his principle that every strike is a block and every block is a strike...  It was shortly after that, he taught me that when doing an outside forearm block to focus not so much on stopping my opponents strike, but instead to try to put my forearm through his as if I was striking with my forearm...  My blocks became tremendously better as a result and I found that after a couple wide strikes, my opponent didn't necessarily want to try to hit me like that anymore...



How much is realistically possible with a block like this?  Can those of us who are NOT martial arts champions learn to block forcefully enough that the blocked limb HURTS enough to dissuade further strikes?


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## Buka (Mar 22, 2014)

Carol said:


> How many folks train in scenarios that of self defense against someone you don't want to destroy?
> 
> Say you're with a friend or relative, they have too much to drink and they start doing stupid stuff.  Or maybe their nerves are shot because they are going through a nasty divorce and a snide comment ends up setting off their temper.
> 
> ...



I think long time training prepares for most things, regardless of style/system. Certainly not every scenario, but the majority of them. I also think training/experience from certain occupations can help a whole lot.

It might also depend on just how close a friend we're discussing here. And exactly what the heck is going on. (the old line - "A friend helps you move. A best friend helps you move a body")

Don't you juts hate it when someone you're with is completely in the wrong and gets involved in a dangerous/illegal situation?


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## stonewall1350 (Mar 22, 2014)

I have been in one fight like that. My cousin punched me. He was sick and we had been hunting. It was like 20 degrees and he got pissed because I was trying to help him instead of getting my own stuff done.

Anyway. I didn't believe he was going to actually punch me till his fist was like 3 inches from my face. I think I mainly didn't beat him down out of shock. But I turned him on his heels and slammed him into the truck and held him till my father broke us up.

Jujitsu is a great art .

I also had to break up a fight between 2 students and one tried to turn and hit me (didn't realize I was a teacher and not another student). He was lifted and shoved back before he could do anything. Again it was my knowledge of grappling/jujitsu/judo that is what I used. So yes it does 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stonewall1350 (Mar 22, 2014)

Takai said:


> That was along my line of thinking as well. Cause pain and gain compliance.



Be Leery that pain may piss them off and cause an autonomic fight response.  but hey...if you are in control then maybe a little extra dose of pain will settle their butt down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## K-man (Mar 22, 2014)

FatMan said:


> How much is realistically possible with a block like this?  Can those of us who are NOT martial arts champions learn to block forcefully enough that the blocked limb HURTS enough to dissuade further strikes?


If you want to, the answer is 'yes'. You can learn to use a 'block' to cause pain. In this case the 'block' is  actually a strike. However, whether you will ever be able to use it in a real situation depends on whether or not you are prepared to train to acquire the instinctive response needed to intercept a punch and the quickness of mind to strike the arm before it retracts. Most karate training I have come across does not do that. Other arts like WC, and Aikido, teach simultaneous deflection and strike although, with these, the strike is not normally to the limb.
:asian:


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## Bluesman (Nov 17, 2015)

Hard push to the chest should do the trick. Just hard enough so that it shocks them and let's them know that next time it won't be as friendly!!


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 19, 2015)

Not as a separate thing. There are a number of techniques and options that can be used to defend against someone with the minimum of force. For example an armbar can be used to break an arm or just control someone and a defense against a neck or shoulder grab can involve a strike to the throat or a tickle under the armpits.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 19, 2015)

Double post so here's a picture of a bear in a back stance:

http://sophienettejc.thedeadone.net...ny-animals-fun-animals-bears-pics-3_large.jpg


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Not as a separate thing. There are a number of techniques and options that can be used to defend against someone with the minimum of force. For example an armbar can be used to break an arm or just control someone and a defense against a neck or shoulder grab can involve a strike to the throat or a tickle under the armpits.



I disagree with the idea of placing someone in an armbar as a method of restraint. Keeping someone in that position for an extended time can lead to hyperextension of the joint, or an actual break. It's better to pin the person down.

Kesa Gatame for example is an excellent pin, because it's secure, you're not hurting the person, and you can easily transition into more offensive mode if the situation calls for it. 

Some of the pins found in Aikido are very good as well.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2015)

Yeah I scarf hold pretty much everybody. Easier on the knees on concrete.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah I scarf hold pretty much everybody. Easier on the knees on concrete.



Yeah, and again, its fairly easy to make a Kesa uncomfortable for the person if you want to. Simply applying top pressure to their chest can be a pretty unbearable experience on a hard surface.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I disagree with the idea of placing someone in an armbar as a method of restraint. Keeping someone in that position for an extended time can lead to hyperextension of the joint, or an actual break. It's better to pin the person down.


I didn't actually say restrain or to keep anyone in any position for an extended period.. There are degrees of control. If you are at a party and a relative or a friend is getting unruly just putting them in a arm bar and then putting them on the ground can be enough of a deterrent.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Nov 19, 2015)

Ha this is actually a funny story. My head instructor and a couple of other people from the club were out drinking and one was drunk and being an *** to the head instructor. The instructor warned him to back off a few times when he didnt he lashed out and grabbed him the throat for a few seconds. That him stop haha.

Another time same guy was slapping the instructor in a joke playful way. Again he warned him to stop but he didnt so he parried a slap and flicked him in the eye again stopped it


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## GiYu - Todd (Nov 19, 2015)

While substitute teaching, I once had to subdue a vilent 9yo who had just attacked several students.  Obviously, beating him would result in me going to jail for awhile.  I used some of the aikido I'd been studying.  He tried to punch me with his left, I stepped to the outside, caught his punch, and reversed it for a wrist lock... aiming him into a nearby chair.  He kept screaming a deep gutteral sound while lunging at me.  Each time he did, he let out a yelp as it simply tightened the wrist restraint, causing pain.  He calmed soon after realizing he couldn't get out of it.  The nice thing was I didn't have to injure him (just discomfort), and to other students, it just looked like I was holding his wrist with one hand. 

I think anyone well versed in their particular art should be capable of adjusting the techniques and damage to fit the situation.  Although, I would favor grappling styles for someone you want to "control".


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