# Chi Sau : the concept of not trying to win.



## mook jong man (Nov 19, 2011)

It is said in Wing Chun that aggression and ego will slow if not stifle your progress in Wing Chun.
This is particularly evident in Chi Sau , when I was a fair bit younger than I am now , I used to revel in hammering my opponent and imposing my will on them.

I would hit them hard , I would crush their angles , I would run a Tan Sau up past their neck and sweep them to the floor with Huen Bo , I would perform all manner of traps on them , even if the trap was not there I would still make it work somehow.

Some of these opponents would probably think that I was an aggressive bully , but I was not being nasty , I was just totally focused on winning and to be perfectly honest it was fun.
But just because it was fun and it gave my ego a boost does not mean it was good for my development in Wing Chun.

If I could somehow go back in time I would give some advice to this ego driven , aggressive young man.
I would tell him this , if you want to be really good at Wing Chun in the future .........


Back off on the attacking , don't practice so many attacks , just use a few .
When working with people less skilled than you , resist the urge to hit them , by all means show them where the gaps are , but you don't have to hammer them.
Sparring is a lot of fun , but spend more time on your stance and refining the individual movements of Chi Sau.
Instead of hitting people all the time  using your superior speed , why not work work more on off balancing the opponent with a superior stance and superior skill , an already off balanced opponent is a lot easier to hit anyway you idiot.
Again , when working with people less skilled , let them attack you and you just maintain your correct rolling.
Stay relaxed and stop trying to fight back using muscular force against the big guy that you are training with , accept that your skill level is not up to par at this point in time to deal with his strength , but stay relaxed and have patience because in the future it will be.
Finally , stop trying to win in Chi Sau , work on relaxing and developing your skill in mentally focusing towards his centre at all times , try to roll as smooth as you can.
If you are thinking about winning , your concentration is now on what your hands are doing and how you can win , what you have done is actually made your structure weaker and your more likely to be hit because you have taken your concentration off focusing to his centre and now you are focused on your own hands.
Oh and stop drinking so much beer and getting maggoted , hangovers are a real *****.


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## procmail (Nov 20, 2011)

When you say roll, what do you mean? Elaborate please? Thanks!


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## mook jong man (Nov 20, 2011)

procmail said:


> When you say roll, what do you mean? Elaborate please? Thanks!



Luk Sau , double sticking hands , in our school we used to call it "rolling" 
Because you are rolling from Tan to Bong and low to high Fook Sau.


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## procmail (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks, I understand what you mean now. 

I was just thinking about something related to Chi Sau recently. 

Yesterday, while discussing this with a senior, he was showing me how it's supposed to be done. 

What I usually do with my friends is this: when we Chi Sau, our contact point is roughly near each other's wrists. 

My senior was doing this: he positioned his arms so that his fuk Sau and tan Sau is very near to my body, so it's very easy for him to attack him. While I am feel his attacks coming. I find I don't have time enough to respond. 

I guess my question is whether I should start to position my hands forward like him during chi Sau. Is this the correct position?


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## mook jong man (Nov 20, 2011)

procmail said:


> What I usually do with my friends is this: when we Chi Sau, our contact point is roughly near each other's wrists.



That could be the problem right there , it can't be "roughly" you must maintain proper wrist contact or else you can't control his arm.



procmail said:


> My senior was doing this: he positioned his arms so that his fuk Sau and tan Sau is very near to my body, so it's very easy for him to attack him. While I am feel his attacks coming. I find I don't have time enough to respond.



Ok we will assume that because he is a senior , his angles are correct and his arms are in what we would call the optimum or ultimate angle , that is the elbow is positioned approximately two fists distance from his body.
Then it could be possible that your angles are incorrect and your elbows are too close to your body , move back a bit and expand your angles .




procmail said:


> I guess my question is whether I should start to position my hands forward like him during chi Sau. Is this the correct position?



If his elbows are the correct distance from his body as I described then yes.
But to be honest without actually seeing what you are doing I am only guessing , Chi Sau is a complex subject , there maybe other factors involved as to why you are getting hit.

It could be that your wrists aren't on the centreline , you might be too tense etc.
Where abouts is he getting through , is it your Fook Sau , Tan Sau or both?

If you can't resolve the problem then I suggest going back to working on your foundation for a while and only practice single sticking hands.


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## procmail (Nov 20, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> That could be the problem right there , it can't be "roughly" you must maintain proper wrist contact or else you can't control his arm.



That's the thing... with this senior, the contact point isn't at the wrists, but meaty part of the forearm close to the elbow. His Tan Sau is just centimeters away from my body.



mook jong man said:


> Ok we will assume that because he is a senior , his angles are correct and his arms are in what we would call the optimum or ultimate angle , that is the elbow is positioned approximately two fists distance from his body.
> Then it could be possible that your angles are incorrect and your elbows are too close to your body , move back a bit and expand your angles .



Good reminder. Upon reflection, I think my elbows when doing Chi Sau may be too close to my body. 



mook jong man said:


> If his elbows are the correct distance from his body as I described then yes.
> But to be honest without actually seeing what you are doing I am only guessing , Chi Sau is a complex subject , there maybe other factors involved as to why you are getting hit.
> 
> It could be that your wrists aren't on the centreline , you might be too tense etc.
> ...



I'm mostly getting hit first when I'm in the Bong Sau position. His Fuk Sau is less than a fist from my body so when he punches, I can't roll in time. Maybe I should move away a little?

I also realize my wrists can also be placed closer to the center line. 

I've actually been told earlier by another senior that my wrists are too close. If I imagine myself holding onto a steering wheel when doing Chi Sau, my steering wheel would be smaller than my other senior's steering wheel. As a result, he said that his arms are sort of like being squeezed lightly together when I hold my position. It also makes it harder for him to attack me, which defeats the purpose of his doing Chi Sau with me. Since he can't attack, he feels I'm depriving him of a good Chi Sau learning session. At that point I decided I thought open up a little more.

I'm sorry if this is a off-topic, but I thought it might be related.


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## mook jong man (Nov 20, 2011)

procmail said:


> That's the thing... with this senior, the contact point isn't at the wrists, but meaty part of the forearm close to the elbow. His Tan Sau is just centimeters away from my body.



There is no way your going to stop him from getting in if your wrist is half way up his forearm , control the wrist and you control the whole arm , get your wrists on his wrists and keep them there.



procmail said:


> Good reminder. Upon reflection, I think my elbows when doing Chi Sau may be too close to my body.



Sounds like it maybe the case .



procmail said:


> I'm mostly getting hit first when I'm in the Bong Sau position. His Fuk Sau is less than a fist from my body so when he punches, I can't roll in time. Maybe I should move away a little?



Again it sounds like your arms are to close to your body , expand your angle , and let his force roll your arm up into Bong Sau , if your still getting hit roll your Bong Sau up a little bit higher.




procmail said:


> I also realize my wrists can also be placed closer to the center line.



Yep , get em on the centreline it's a Wing Chun basic.




procmail said:


> I've actually been told earlier by another senior that my wrists are too close. If I imagine myself holding onto a steering wheel when doing Chi Sau, my steering wheel would be smaller than my other senior's steering wheel. As a result, he said that his arms are sort of like being squeezed lightly together when I hold my position. It also makes it harder for him to attack me, which defeats the purpose of his doing Chi Sau with me. Since he can't attack, he feels I'm depriving him of a good Chi Sau learning session. At that point I decided I thought open up a little more.
> 
> I'm sorry if this is a off-topic, but I thought it might be related.



If he feels like he couldn't attack you , then you must have been close to doing something right.

If you are really pressing his wrists close together it should make it easier for him to attack you by trapping , because it seems like your wrists might be very close to wandering over the centreline.

Get your wrists on the centreline and focus towards his centre , if he can't attack you bad luck , tell him to go find another punching bag , besides if he is your senior he should be letting you attack him and he just defend.

That is the nature of Chi Sau if someones technique is technically correct then it is very difficult to get them with anything.


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## geezer (Nov 21, 2011)

This is a reply to the OP. Mook, don't regret the fun you had kicking butt in Chi-sau as a young-guy. That's what young guys try to do. The fun you had, kept you fascinated and motivated. Now that you're older, you can still focus on all that refinement you talked about. After all, we're in this thing for our whole life! At least, this it what I'm telling myself as well.


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## mook jong man (Nov 21, 2011)

geezer said:


> This is a reply to the OP. Mook, don't regret the fun you had kicking butt in Chi-sau as a young-guy. That's what young guys try to do. The fun you had, kept you fascinated and motivated. Now that you're older, you can still focus on all that refinement you talked about. After all, we're in this thing for our whole life! At least, this it what I'm telling myself as well.


I suppose it did keep me motivated , if I could not make a particular attack work or some type of attack on me that I couldn't stop I would obsess about it for days.


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## Domino (Nov 22, 2011)

How you make me laugh ...as I'm seriously reading your descriptions ... some light comes into it, excellent !

Procmail > That particular problem I came across some time ago in chi sau and for me it was that you are allowing someone else to come to far into your 'garden' ... no tresspassers. Keep your distance or change the angle.
No sexual innuendo.


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## procmail (Nov 23, 2011)

@Mook Jong Man: Thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I will reexamine my approach and be more aware of what I'm doing (fundamentals) when doing Chi Sau. I'll also tell the other senior in future if he complains about not being able to beat me up 




Domino said:


> Procmail > That particular problem I came across some time ago in chi sau and for me it was that you are allowing someone else to come to far into your 'garden' ... no tresspassers. Keep your distance or change the angle.
> No sexual innuendo.



I will keep a distance. Before this came up I wasn't aware how much distance could matter in Chi Sau. I know it matters in a fight, just never occurred to me in Chi Sau.

By changing the angle, what do you mean?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 23, 2011)

I have heard this in Wing Chun and I have heard this form my Taijiquan sifu and I have even come across in in Xingyiquan, heck I even heard this from my first sifu who was mostly modern Wushu

Learn by losing. (aka Invest in loss).... of course it did not make any sense until I hit 40s


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## Domino (Nov 25, 2011)

procmail said:


> I will keep a distance. Before this came up I wasn't aware how much distance could matter in Chi Sau. I know it matters in a fight, just never occurred to me in Chi Sau.
> By changing the angle, what do you mean?



Change your attackers angle to put you in a better position and a little more distance, maybe by forcing their elbow for instance.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 1, 2011)

It depends on what you are using your chi sao for and what you are getting out of it (remembering every school differs). Certainly, in any sparring (boxing, BJJ, etc), if you use 'emotional aggression', you will really struggle. Saying that, it is important to experiment with different approaches. One thing I have learnt recently is the importance of looking at your opponent while doing chi sao. It may seem basic, but it is amazing the difference (due to internal body alignment)

The other misconception is aggression. It is possible to be an aggressive opponent without having emotion involved. UUltimately chi sao adapts and changes and will differ for you over the years. Enjoy it, be playful and learn what you can while doing it


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## Domino (Dec 8, 2011)

KamonGuy2 said:


> Saying that, it is important to experiment with different approaches. One thing I have learnt recently is the importance of looking at your opponent while doing chi sao. It may seem basic, but it is amazing the difference (due to internal body alignment)



Must agree there, noticed this when starting the 1st few sections of the dummy... no good looking at your feet


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