# hypothetical self defense situation #1 and #2



## Michael89 (Aug 29, 2014)

* hypothetical self defense situation#1 *

what HKD technique when someone grabs (bearhug) you from behind off the feet in midair? 


* hypothetical self defense situation#2

*what HKD technique when someone bigger and taller got you on knees after wrestling in anger and that person (tiger)claw-hold you on shoulder from behind?


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## jezr74 (Aug 29, 2014)

1#, Tech I've been taught and used is using separation of tanjon to move your arms under then head to escape. And/or getting your arms in to a almost cat roll ready position to lessen the tight grip, but that's really before they would have you. Having been lifted, the same principles but deadening my weight.

2#, not sure what a tiger claw hold is.


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## Michael89 (Aug 29, 2014)

hand grip on the shoulder (keep in mind that person is big dude.) let me check for other name for claw hold, other name i can think of is "iron claw" in pro wrestling


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2014)

For number two look up sit outs. In all their different variations.


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## Michael89 (Aug 29, 2014)

drop bear said:


> For number two look up sit outs. In all their different variations.



on youtube?


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> on youtube?




Yeah sitouts from turtle. You should find something there. I am not sure what tiger claw is either. But there are only so many positions you can approach turtle from.


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## Michael89 (Aug 29, 2014)

https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...3u&.crumb=N9Nct7r77qi&fr=yfp-t-901&fr2=sb-top I will try this again. For hypothetical self defense situation #2 what techniques you would use to get out of this?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2014)

#1.

99% of the time, when your both feet are off the ground and in the air, it will be too late. there won't be any solution left. The reason is your opponent can quickly throw you over him.







You can still try the following but it doesn't guarantee (since your feet are already off the ground, and your opponent can throw you very fast).

- Twist your right leg around your opponent's left leg. This will glue your body on your opponent's body as one unit. This is important. Even if he may throw you back, your body may still land on top of his body (unless he twists his body).
- Extend your left leg horizontally as far as you can (like a left side kick). You just shift your gravity center away from your body. This will make your opponent to feel heaver to hold you up. 
- Free your right arm. Use your right arm to head lock, under/over hook his right/left shoulder.
- Free your left arm. Wrap your left arm around his right arm. This can disable his right arm mobility.
- When he can't hold you up any more and drop you, the moment that your left foot touch the ground, the moment that you use your right leg to block his right leg and use your right arm control to throw him.

Another simple solution can be "Grab one of his fingers, use your both hand to break it". This may not solve your problem but at least you want your opponent to pay some price.

#2.






You can use your 2 free hands to pull his hands and let his hands to "slide" off your shoulder. Your opponent's downward pressing may be powerful, your 45 degree downward pulling can be powerful too. Since your shoulder (without shirt) can be very slippery when you sweat. Your successful rate should be OK. What will you do after that depends on your opponent's respond. Since his arms may drop in front of you, you may apply something like "shoulder throw" to take him down..

Since I don't train Hapkido, those solutions may or may not be the standard Hapkido solution.


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## mook jong man (Aug 29, 2014)

Echoing Kung Fu Wang , if you dont get that grapevine around his leg early in the piece you are probably going to be suplexed.

The second one I see several options , they do not involve trying to break the grip with your hands.
It is human nature to concentrate on the place where you are being grabbed and totally ignore the areas where the opponent is open and vulnerable to striking.

You could throw both your hands back and up and finger whip him in the eyes , if he is leaning over you.
His foot is right next to you , you could use a downward hammerfist to the top of his instep or toes.
You could use backward elbow strikes into his thigh or calf muscle.
That forward leg of his is vulnerable to being swept , just hook your arm around it and take him down.

To be honest , it looks like a pro wrestling move to me , I would be more worried about a rear naked choke than somebody trying to do some sort of nerve grip on me.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 29, 2014)

In the bear hug, are your arms pinned or not?  Is there any time between his grab and the lifting?

If you could describe this tiger claw hold you are talking about it would help.  Also what position both you and your opponent are in.  For example, you say you are on your knees, are you hunched over, pulled back, or pushed forward?  Is your opponent up against you or is there distance?  Is the Tiger-claw to grip/control or to cause pain, or both?


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## Michael89 (Aug 29, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> In the bear hug, are your arms pinned or not?  Is there any time between his grab and the lifting?
> 
> If you could describe this tiger claw hold you are talking about it would help.  Also what position both you and your opponent are in.  For example, you say you are on your knees, are you hunched over, pulled back, or pushed forward?  Is your opponent up against you or is there distance?  Is the Tiger-claw to grip/control or to cause pain, or both?



bearhug-it can be arm pinned or not, any ideas are welcome.


like someone got you on knees and hes just griping you on your shoulder and you're trying to get out of that position but hes just pushing you down on your knees because hes right behind you. keep in mind that person is tall and bigger.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> bearhug-it can be arm pinned or not, any ideas are welcome.


IMO, it won't make much difference one way or another. You may only have 1/4 second to react. After that, everything will be too late. 

Let me throw in a "self defense situation #3" here. What can you do if you are the person in the air? My answer will be "nothing".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> if you dont get that grapevine around his leg early in the piece you are probably going to be suplexed.


You are absolute right. If you miss that "leg twist", you can still try to stick the inner edge of your right foot behind your opponent's right leg. If you miss that again, everything will be too late.


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## Michael89 (Aug 29, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, it won't make much difference one way or another. You may only have 1/4 second to react. After that, everything will be too late.
> 
> Let me throw in a "self defense situation #3" here. What can you do if you are the person in the air? My answer will be "nothing".




i prolly would try to grab his chin or claw him in eyes or hammerfist to his ear at the least.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> i prolly would try to grab his chin or claw him in eyes or hammerfist to his ear at the least.



When you are on top of a tree branch, if you try to cut that tree branch, you will fall down from that tree too. Nothing can stop your opponent from smashing your head to the ground. That deadly head smashing is the main problem that you should worry about.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 29, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> bearhug-it can be arm pinned or not, any ideas are welcome.
> 
> 
> like someone got you on knees and hes just griping you on your shoulder and you're trying to get out of that position but hes just pushing you down on your knees because hes right behind you. keep in mind that person is tall and bigger.



BTW, are you a Hapkido student?  You should be asking your instructor who can show you techniques he knows, or modify a technique he knows.  He can also demonstrate what I say below.

Bear hug, arms not pinned:  Rake back his middle finger of the top hand to raise it backwards (with your opposite hand), grab his middle finger and pull it back forcefully.  Even if he is trying to pull you over, he may collapse under you, or allow you to catch yourself.  That works for a Full Nelson also BTW, and can be turned into a pull to the ground and kick with your knee to your opponent's head.

Bear hug arms pinned:  If you see him encircling you, drop suddenly and raise your arms (this requires a lot of practice and strength training), move your arms around under and back over and pin his arms at the wrists with your cupped hands, straightening his arms over your shoulders, step forward and throw him over your shoulder.

Bear hug arms pinned suddenly and opponent starts falling back to put you on the ground suddenly:  Try to do a good break fall, preferably on your opponent's stomach or head.  Try to catch his groin/symphysis pubis with one heel as you go up/over.  When you know which way he is rolling you, if he does, try to do a good break fall.

Gripping your shoulder and putting you on your knees, standing against you or nearly so:  Pin his hand to your shoulder with your opposite hand as you hit his wrist/forearm from behind with the same hand as the shoulder he is gripping, to break/sprain his wrist.  Continue to pin his hand and push on his arm, moving your hand up to about the elbow for more leverage, changing the push on his arm to the inside of the way you are facing, twist your body some to the opposite side of the shoulder being gripped, throwing your opponent over your shoulder.

If he is away from you, duck your head, twist to the direction of the pinned shoulder, under his arm, stay on knees, place hand opposite pinned shoulder behind opponent's heel to pin his foot, place other hand, closed with index finger open and firmly against other inside ankle of opponent, twist base of index finger into pressure point above opponent's ankle.

The above may not make sense to you if you can't see the techniques performed.  Sorry.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 29, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, it won't make much difference one way or another. You may only have 1/4 second to react. After that, everything will be too late.
> 
> Let me throw in a "self defense situation #3" here. What can you do if you are the person in the air? My answer will be "nothing".



Quite correct that there may not be a lot of reaction time.  In Hapkido, speed and accuracy are important.  Just curious, what prevents the attacked person from kicking the opponent in the head, or tumbling over into a  break fall?


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 29, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you are on top of a tree branch, if you try to cut that tree branch, you will fall down from that tree too. Nothing can stop your opponent from smashing your head to the ground. That deadly head smashing is the main problem that you should worry about.



As with your earlier illustration, what prevents the attacked person from using a forward break fall?  Or jumping into the attack to force the opponent over backwards for cushioning?

Because you are right that if you fall that way, you won't even bounce.  Not a good way to start or end your day.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> what prevents the attacked person from kicking the opponent in the head, or tumbling over into a  break fall?


To prevent your opponent from kicking you, you will need to use your leg to "jam" his leading leg when you move in.







To prevent your opponent from taking a break fall or forward rolling, you need to hold on one of his leg when you throw him.







Your opponent also can't do any break fall or forward rolling in the following clip because his left shoulder control is not released during the throwing.


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## Badger1777 (Aug 29, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> * hypothetical self defense situation#1 *
> 
> what HKD technique when someone grabs (bearhug) you from behind off the feet in midair?




I know nothing of hapkido, but I've been in this situation regardless. Two things. 1) Make yourself heavy. That basically means lift your legs outwards and relax everything that's not required to hold the legs out. It takes a strong person to hold a 'dead weight', especially if the balance is off (legs are heavy, and now yours are protruding outside of the centre of gravity). 2) If there is anything in kicking range, kick it. Now, while your attacker is trying to compensating for weight pulling him off balance forwards, now he is off balance going backwards. That's fine for you, because he is your cushion should he fall.




> *hypothetical self defense situation#2
> 
> *what HKD technique when someone bigger and taller got you on knees after wrestling in anger and that person (tiger)claw-hold you on shoulder from behind?



Stand up? A person of reaonable fitness should be able to lift two or three times their own weight from that position without too much effort, unless I am not picturing the situation correctly.


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> bearhug-it can be arm pinned or not, any ideas are welcome.
> 
> 
> like someone got you on knees and hes just griping you on your shoulder and you're trying to get out of that position but hes just pushing you down on your knees because hes right behind you. keep in mind that person is tall and bigger.




Turn around and face him then ankle pick. Put your head into his knee and push while you are pulling his foot.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VnyA9hNRANc


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> Quite correct that there may not be a lot of reaction time.  In Hapkido, speed and accuracy are important.  Just curious, what prevents the attacked person from kicking the opponent in the head, or tumbling over into a  break fall?




Nothing it just doesn't do any good.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dASGP31LzdI


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2014)

For the bear hug. You can kick your feet out forwards ish. You are still standing and drive your head and shoulders up and back. Which starts prying your hips away from theirs. Then using your hips and your hands peel their arms down. Or of your arms are caught are are caught lever your elbows in and peel their arms down.


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## jezr74 (Sep 1, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> 1#, Tech I've been taught and used is using separation of tanjon to move your arms under then head to escape. And/or getting your arms in to a almost cat roll ready position to lessen the tight grip, but that's really before they would have you. Having been lifted, the same principles but deadening my weight.



I had a chance to test this on Friday night, while during our sparring\yusul bouts. I gave an opportunity for my opponent by presenting my back and he went straight to bear-hug and lift. I was able to drop my weight from tanjon then basic separation principles moving my arms in different directions to get out under the grip without presenting my neck. Cost me a red ear but was good to try it without him knowing as he was higher grade and much more skilled, but he maid the right sounds when I dropped the weight and took him by surprise. (Mind you, he may have been taking it easier on me)

I'm keen to give #2 an attempt, I can see from the pictures it's quite a vulnerable position. My first thoughts would be to redirect his force grabbing the arms and moving forward but I think that could be dangerous as it could easily move to rear naked choke as has already been speculated if messed up. So applying a technique as bringing them over locking up the arms and shoulders might work, breaking the wrist(s) if the momentum is not in favor.


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