# Stillness and Motion : Quotes and Discussion



## grappling_mandala (Jul 23, 2004)

Here are some selected quotes that relate to stillness and motion. (and are in currently printed books) I qoute from both chinese and japanese traditions. Thought these might be interesting for some. 

If you find standing during practice boring, you can move slightly, but you must understand that when you move, you must move as if you cannot stop, and when you want to stop, you must feel as if you cannot stop.  Wang Xiangzhai [1885-1963]


Every sturdy tree that towers over human beings owes its existence to a deeply rooted core.  Morihei Ueshiba [1883-1969]


Rest is the substance and the motion is the practice. To say that it is in rest, there is not any secret nature divulged; to say that it is in motion, there is not any trace to be seen. This is the face of motion and rest between discharge and non-discharge. It is called the moment of motion and rest. The old masters said that the one who recognizes the moment is the wisest.  Sun Lu Tang [1861-1933] [Xing Yi Quan Xue]



Study the teachings of the pine tree, the bamboo, and the plum blossom. The pine is evergreen, firmly rooted, and venerable. The bamboo is strong, resilient, unbreakable. The plum blossom is hardy, fragrant, and elegant.   Morihei Ueshiba [1883-1969]



Self-defense means combat. It should be understood that in actual combat, moving violently is not as good as moving slightly, which again is not as good as not moving at all. It is stillness that is constant movement, just like a flywheel which, when turning extremely fast, looks static. A visible movement is actually nothing but a reflection of weakness. The motion that resides in stillness and looks like stillness is really powerful. Such motion and stillness are interdependent, each being the source of each other. Their magical application depends mainly on the control of the nervous system, the guidance of intention, the contraction and stretching of the joints and ligaments as well as their firm support, the action and reaction of rotating movements, and the use of the elastic force produced in breathing. If all these can be properly used the exerciser can be said to have laid a solid foundation for actual combat.  Wang Xiangzhai [1885-1963]


Enjoy,

Dave


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## Tony (Jul 23, 2004)

Hi Dave

Great quotes! I love quotes like these, as they really make you think and add more philosophical depth to our Martial Arts lessons. I have a few of my own you might have heard of!



"A good warrior is never angry"- Sun Tzu

" better to light a candle then compain about the darkness"  - Confucious

"Treat one as many and many as one" - Morihei Ueshiba

" A man with one leg cannot walk a tightrope" Tony!


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## chee (Jul 25, 2004)

More to your list:

When two great forces oppose each other,​The victory will go​to the one that knows how to yield.​---​The generals have a saying:​Rather than make the first move​it is better to wait and see.​Rather than advance an inch​it is better to retreat a yard."​ 
This is called going forward without advancing,​pushing back without using weapns.​---​_Lao Tzu_​ 


Do not ask the way from a blind man​

_Han Wen'gong (Han Dynasty)_​---​ 


Should one say that something does not exist, merely because​we have nver seen or heard of it?​

_Ge Hung (Han Dynasty)_​


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## RHD (Jul 25, 2004)

"When in doubt, use brute force"  Dr. Imran Niazi.

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 26, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> "When in doubt, use brute force" Dr. Imran Niazi.
> 
> Mike


Isn't he a heart doctor?

Dave


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## RHD (Jul 26, 2004)

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> Isn't he a heart doctor?
> 
> Dave




Sort of, are you familliar with him and his work?

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 26, 2004)

I looked the name up on the web. Looked like some kind of electrocardiologist or something-er-rather. Whats the connection I'm missing?

Dave


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## RHD (Jul 26, 2004)

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> I looked the name up on the web. Looked like some kind of electrocardiologist or something-er-rather. Whats the connection I'm missing?
> 
> Dave



No connection really, just a little "pearl" of wisdom he likes to use during difficult procedures.   He's quite a character, and a talented physician.

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 26, 2004)

Being a doctor I bet any skill has benifited those around him! That's awesome! What kind of stuff has he done that he calls 'brute force'? Like closing off an artery with his teeth or what?  

Dave


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 26, 2004)

Back on topic. 

So what do you think the benifits of learning 'stillness' are? I mean all "three treasures' consistantly talk about the importance of understanding our relationship to stillness and the relationship of stillness to motion.  All three arts have standing mediation practices. Does anyone see a point to these practices?

Is there an aspect of standing meditation that subtly trains the body to behave differently than the practices of external martial arts?

(ps Three Treasures = Ba Gua / Xing Yi / and Tai Chi)

Anyone have thoughts on this? I have some thoughts that I'll reserve until after someone else comments. 

Dave in Oregon


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## RHD (Jul 27, 2004)

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> Being a doctor I bet any skill has benifited those around him! That's awesome! What kind of stuff has he done that he calls 'brute force'? Like closing off an artery with his teeth or what?
> 
> Dave



No Dave, nothing quite like that.  The quote I posted is quite valid for the topic "stillness and motion".  This particular person has brought people back from death's door using bold yet subtle techniques that many of his peers wouldn't have the cojones to attempt.  His hands in action are something to behold.  An almost imperceptable torque of a wire can save a person's life or give them the chance to live one that is without the torment of heart failure.

I'm curious about the whole quotes thingy here.  Does a quote or saying have to be from some Chinese general or famous philospher to have meaning?
Do these quotes have some deeper meaning, or is this a contest to see who can out quote the others?  What relationship do these quotes...or philosophy in general have to Chinese Martial arts?  Can one be a practitioner of the Chinese Martial arts without studying Eastern philosophy?

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 27, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Does a quote or saying have to be from some Chinese general or famous philospher to have meaning?



Generally if it's a 'qoute' it's something someone else has said. Generally things arn't worth qouting unless their interesting. Different qoutes for different folks right? I thought these were cool. I thought I would share. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Do these quotes have some deeper meaning, or is this a contest to see who can out quote the others?



Of coarse this is not a contest. This is the internet. A place to share things with each other. I noticed I kept reading things on 'stillness' in books that have been written by notible masters from history. I threw a few of them together for others to enjoy and maybe find something to talk about with others? 

I find that most martial artists are willing to entertain philosophical discussion, because training in the arts usually requires a discovery process in most people, no matter what art. The discovery and learning process is valuable. As many moments of realization that we can have, the better. On the mat or off the mat. Doesn't matter to me. Internet? Works for me! it just means we have to talk! 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> ]What relationship do these quotes...or philosophy in general have to Chinese Martial arts?  Can one be a practitioner of the Chinese Martial arts without studying Eastern philosophy?



These particular qoutes? Dude... no offense, but do you know who Wang was? That's like asking who's Pete Rose while your standing in the hall of fame! All the old masters had things to say, I like to take the time to read them since I can't talk face to face with someone who is dead. Sometimes I find little things that put a peice in a puzzle for me. Other times I don't get anything, the point is the pursuit of excellence in the arts CAN be pursued multi-dimensionally. 

Can someone practice chinese martial art without studying EASTERN philosophy? Sure, can someone practice ANY martial art without studying ANY philosophy? Of coarse! But I would challenge any martial artist to explain to me what they are learning that can't be interpreted as a language of relationships with the body. 

Where there is relationship, there is language, where there is relationship there is philosophy. To entertain the mind... to enjoy thinking about movement, to play with ideas, to explore the possibilities of expression, when we talk about these things, it doesn't NEED to be something that seems 'mystical'... we just talk. There are many perspectives, but we're all trying to understand the same language right? maybe some agree and some don't with this...

I'm defining philosophy loosely, so that it simply includes the desire of the artist to understand what it is they are accomplishing on multiple levels, not just physically, or mentally, but the WHOLE person. 

We could of coarse use this medium to just explain 'moves' to each other too, but video is much better for that... meanwhile, let's talk! 

Kind Regards,

Dave


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## RHD (Jul 27, 2004)

Can't remember where this one came from, but I like it:

"Those who can't talk.  Those who can, do."

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 28, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Can't remember where this one came from, but I like it:
> 
> "Those who can't talk.  Those who can, do."
> 
> Mike



Which is why it's important to train face to face with real masters rather then try and explain truth over the internet in a technical way. Truth turns into 'technicalities' because of what language is, how it is arranged, and what it does to our sense of what valid 'information' is.

Kinesthetic information can not be transmitted over the internet as effectively as face to face. This is not arguable. Those who don't talk know, those who talk don't know. 

So here we are left in the vacuum of this medium, talking about 'martial art', something that requires 'DOING'. Forced to recognize that trying to explain a martial art over the internet just doesn't really work. Video works better. Words don't cut the cake.

So if we're going to exercise any pursuit of the arts in this medium it makes sense that it should lead to us contacting each other and training together.

And if we agree that arguing doesn't benifit the whole, then how worthy is the pursuit of truth along the edge of languages grasp... that is what poetry, philosophy, music, to some spirituality are. There is a side of martial art that this touches as well. The 'philosophy' of the arts. 

We all study art. That's why we're on martialtalk.com We study artial Art. 

The edge of language is artistic. It's natural. Philosophy transcends the medium of writing as it exists 'technically' by connecting to deeper parts of us. Parts that are hard to put into words.

Art. Transcendence thru the transformation of technicalities into a mixture of technical essense and personality. 

Human artistic expression... is very powerful. 

Ego can't do art. Ego can't be artistic without fearing for it's safety. 

Transcendance of the medium is what poetry, music, philosophy, and all art is. I would almost say that's what true 'religion' is... the transcendence of this medium we call 'life' through prayer...

How we choose to entertain ourselves using the medium of the internet is significant. Just like if you choose to read nothing but romance novels or the encyclopedia, I bet that would effect your life in some way. Or if you watched mtv 24hours a day or the Discovery Channel. Forms of self hypnosis no-one is willing to admit to. It's funny. 

So here we are, talking philosophy! It's good! 

Dave


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## RHD (Jul 28, 2004)

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> So if we're going to exercise any pursuit of the arts in this medium it makes sense that it should lead to us contacting each other and training together....
> 
> 
> We all study art. That's why we're on martialtalk.com We study artial Art....
> ...



Hi Dave, sounds good.  I live in Milwaukee and if you're ever in the area feel free to contact me.  It would be a good time to train together.  Maybe you would see that RHD isn't a total jackass...Or maybe you will think even less of me afterwords.  Either way, I agree with you on the experiential aspect.   :supcool: 

I don't consider my training pursuits to be on an artistic level.  I'm not saying that to be obtuse, I just consider myself to be studying a fighting system, but not an art form.  I think there's a difference.  The word art speaks of individual expression and perhaps a performance aspect.  Although I recently competed in a tournament, it wasn't for the performance at all, and I don't seek to express myself through martial arts.  I approach it more like a military science.  I don't think that the founders of Hung Gar were artists in as much as they were survivors who learned what worked for them and for those they taught.  Some kung fu styles really are quite expressive, but I tend to steer clear from those that stress individual expression over practicality.  For example as much as I admire the athleticism of some modern Wushu artists, you will never catch me in a modern Wushu school.  Martial is the key word here for me.  This is one reason why I was skeptical of Mr. Vendrell (and please Hawaiian and other folks, this isn't a personal attack) when one of his student's described creating a weapon form for Taiji Legacy.  My initial thoughts were "who here has the practical experience with a sword to make up a new fighting form?".  

Talking philosophy...Sounds like college kids with too much free time, too few responsibilities, and maybe a little too much of an herbal substance on hand...
No offense intended of course.

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 31, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> I don't consider my training pursuits to be on an artistic level. I'm not saying that to be obtuse, I just consider myself to be studying a fighting system, but not an art form. I think there's a difference. The word art speaks of individual expression and perhaps a performance aspect.


Yeah I think so too. There is a big difference between individuals are are consciously pursuing a martial art as a _combat science_, and those who are looking for a way to _"artistically express"_ themselves _thru_ martial art.

There are plenty of shades in the spectrum of an individuals reasons for studying martial art. 

I think a distinction needs to be made between modern _'artistic expression'_ and the _'art'_ of _'martial art'._ 

The epitome of _modern artistic expression_ is practicing a form disconnected from any human contact (or live sparring), and in extreme cases 'freestyle or performance based martial arts' emphasis gymnastics and physical attributes over combat effectiveness. Although these types of training might produce athletes, I don't believe they produce combat effective individuals. 

Martial Art ceases to be a combat science when movement occurs habitually outside of the context of combat. (alive feedback) So do we call what is left combat science? Perhaps...

But herein lies a paradox. Alive feedback (kinesthetic awareness) is more closely related to the artistic mind than the analytical mind. 

Pay attention: Those who train in an alive way utilizing ballistic reflexes survive. 

Without movement happening with a partner who PLAYS the live resisting opponent, you arn't studying a combat science. 

When I say PLAY I mean play as in fun or serious, (cuz you can't fight your friends to the death more the once each) Either or your training partner plays to make you pay when you make mistakes. 

When I say alive, I mean live and resisting... I mean doing everything within their power to prevent you from succeeding. Paradoxial? Yes. But your friends stop when you tap. Opponents do not. 

And here's another paradox, the mind that memorizes form, and goes thru a linear start-middle-end process over and over while training, in my opinion is won't hold up in the moment of combat. Are memorized forms and techniques scientific? Yes, Are they Artistic? Perhaps, but the mind that has to go thru any process is not a mind that can be relied on in a moments notice. In the moment, there is no time. Which means no time to think. Thinking takes time. So what do I base my training on? On training response in the moment with a someone I can trust.

Does this make form meaningless? No. It has it's place, just like alive sparring.

There are traditionalists who believe in kata that will argue with me. Karateka, Tai Chi practitioners, etc.  I would emphasis to them that those arts who teach forms even say that the form must be transcended (forgotten) in order to be mastered. Can someone be combat effective with a memorized form? Maybe. But physics and kinesthetics don't speak the same language as the linear thought processes.  

So does forgotten mean that you don't know the form? Of coarse not. To forget is to cease going thru the linear analytical process of start-middle-stop. No process means.... no form. (Structure? yes, Pre-rehersed movement? No ) By not adhearing to an internal process that occurs before movement, movement is allowed to occur spontaneously. Spontaneity does not mean a lack of form or technique, it means not clinging to a planned sequence of movements. Form vs. Formlessness. ;o)

Viola....it comes back to the 'form' vs. 'formless' debate. 

Learn form to forget form

No amount of drilling in ANY pre-arranged mindset can prepare a person to relax into an exchange in the language of physics. 

The mind of spoken language and abstracts can not be accessed in the space that is occupied by the mind that does not stop within any movement. This is the effective fighter. Every movement leads to the next movement, but you are not clinging to what your doing or done or going to do, because it changes all the time. How can you plan for change? You simply can not! You can not cling to what has been, or what will be. Constant change requires a different type of thinking. A whole body thinking. 

I've felt this many time while going thru long exchanges with people of equal or greater skill level in grappling. Everything is in the NOW, and your literally doing 3 things at once in the NOW. 

I.E. 3 things at once:
-You've just responded or intiated a movement
-That movement you've just completed has put you into the movement your doing right NOW. 
-Right Now is setting you up for the next movement. 

(research 4 parts of the perfect move)

Am I saying that an altered state of consciousness produces effective fighters? No. I'm saying that altered states of training, where you are constantly testing your comfort zones, and increasing your flexibility of physical influence on the space around you will take you away from thinking in straight lines, and MAKE you think in ways the more closely resemble the geometry of a mandala if you had to make it abstract. The moment you try and put this on paper, it turns 'mystical', but for being so 'mystical' it can sure be hard work. But growth is hard work. 

So I would argue that it is not the 'scientific mind' that is able to respond in combat. The 'scientific mind' analyzes the effectiveness of technique in any training scenario, but if you think while you fight your done, you cling to what you would like to do or what seems rational rather then what is right in front of you, your done. The scientific mind aids training, but it's the part of mind that doesn't think that is responsible for what you do in a moments notice. No time = no thinking. This I believe is the Paradox between 'Martial' and 'Art'. Martial Art is a paradox. Why is it a paradox? Because human beings are a paradox. Better yet, some philosophy would go so far as to say the whole universe is a paradox of duality and that martial art joins everything happily in a plural singularity. Philosophy-smosophy- lets punch something!



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Although I recently competed in a tournament, it wasn't for the performance at all, and I don't seek to express myself through martial arts. I approach it more like a military science.


If your not seeking to express yourself, then why are you studying an science of self defense? If someone wants to communicate with you in a way that is harmful, why are you studying a way to neutralize their harmful expression?



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> I don't think that the founders of Hung Gar were artists in as much as they were survivors who learned what worked for them and for those they taught.


Where are you getting your history of Hung Gar from? Can you please send me some links? 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Some kung fu styles really are quite expressive, but I tend to steer clear from those that stress individual expression over practicality. For example as much as I admire the athleticism of some modern Wushu artists, you will never catch me in a modern Wushu school. Martial is the key word here for me. This is one reason why I was skeptical of Mr. Vendrell (and please Hawaiian and other folks, this isn't a personal attack) when one of his student's described creating a weapon form for Taiji Legacy. My initial thoughts were "who here has the practical experience with a sword to make up a new fighting form?".


I think your mistaking americanized belt system McKungfu for the genuine art of combat science, which is what real kungfu is. The most effective fighters in history have refered to their studies as both art and combat science. If modern performance oriented wushu was effective, they would have bejing champiions teaching the seals instead of the machados and gracies. Now does that mean a forms champion can't fight? of coarse not, cuz he might go agro, give up forms, and start fighting in his garage... and then he starts putting the puzzle together... will he be worse off from forms? No. Will he scientifically start putting it all together? Yes. If he wants to survive. 

Once he learns were all the basic pieces go can he think about that while he fights? No. He has to be mindless. We ready for what is. Not thinking about what he knows, but trusting his response to what is. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> Talking philosophy...Sounds like college kids with too much free time, too few responsibilities, and maybe a little too much of an herbal substance on hand...
> No offense intended of course.


It all depends what you like to spend your time doing while on the internet. If modern communication technology breaks space/time at the expense of the full spectrum of communication, then I for one would rather make better use of words rather then one line replies to thousands of fellow martial artists out there. This is a medium that is easily taken for granted. In a time where video and computers are replacing printed material, we have the opportunity to talk about things on a deeper level then the superficiality bred by corporate sound bites and commercialized air time bent on selling something. 

The fact that you and I can share information on any level without being physicall present is a wonder in and of itself. It's up to the individuals whether or not they take this medium for granted. It's not a replacement for honest training, but used to it's fullest potential can produce meditations that are not a product of a corporate sponser. 

Then again, some people stop by the forums while on their way to the maxim website, or someplace else. What we spend time meditating upon plays a significant role in our lives! Yeah I know, how philosophical. But I type fast, and that's what came out. Choose your meditations. You really should try practicing your kung fu in the wind. 

Mike- have you ever asked a question you had to search for the answer to?

Dave


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## RHD (Aug 1, 2004)

> grappling_mandala said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## grappling_mandala (Aug 1, 2004)

I finally got Mike to talk. This is good!  Looks like we half way agree and half way don't. I think we problably train very similarly, but our reasons and experience of training must be different. I'll post a detailed reply in a few. 

Dave


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## grappling_mandala (Aug 1, 2004)

Mike this is really a good conversation because we actually agree on so much when it comes to how it sounds like we both live our training lives. It's the unseen that's so good to bounce off one another in this internet medium though! It's just like training, we sharpen one another. It's good. We expand our language in the arts. No herbs involved. It's honest mindful communication.



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> You lose me right at the end of that. Have you done some documented research on the subject or is this your opinion?


I'm basing my opinion on research I've done in a wide range of mind/body topics: eastern and western bodyworkers (includ feldenkrais & rolf. Also sports psychology, bio-feedback, body centered psychology, NLP, work with leos, training in competitive environments, etc. 

We can basically seperate the ideas about our 'mind' into different theories on conscious and subconsious functioning of the mind, and left and right hemispheres of the brain. Hemespheric conditions would be like how men and women are different in emotional vs. rational processing of information. Both are right. But when we live together and are forced to experience the others processes first hand, it stretches us. Challenges our views of reality. Neither is right or wrong. They just are. Different manifestations of a central balance in order to propagate the race. 

In any individual there are also various mixtures of conscious and subcsious, as well as left and right hemispheric dominance. 

Lets focus on left/right hemisphere for now. In normal people the dominant hemisphere switches every 1.5 hours. More air flows thru one nostral because of this, and changes every 1.5 hours. Sleep patterns occur in 1.5 hour intervals, digestive cycles, etc. These are called circadian cycles, and they exist from cycles of a few nanoseconds on the cellular level to the 28 days cycles of women. A micro cosm of the cosmic cycles that make up the basis of how we measure time. 

For a great primer into modern brain wave and biofeedback research read 'Mega Brain' By Michael Hutchenson. Investigative Journalism into 'mind machines' and modern biofeedback techniques. 



> This is a large part of my training methodology.


And that's 99% of good martial art! I love it! 



> You're not talking about forms the way I understand them. Forms in Chinese martial arts...to my comprehension, are about literal applications only on the lowest levels of understanding. Chinese forms are all about concepts and concept based training. They are not A-Z like a paint by the numbers kit. They are to be broken down, studied inside and out, and most of all played with...but not for the sake of just jumping around or swinging sticks because "it's cool".


I apologize for judging and assuming what your personal methodology behind forms training is. Your absolutely right about the paint by numbers. My past experience with trying to learn martial art from forms was that I didn't feel like it was helping me conquer fear when faced with physical conflict. I didn't feel like I was learning to fight. I didn't feel any more comfortable in the 'zone'. The 'zone' was a fearful place, it involved energy exchanges I was afraid of to the point of preventing me from responding in a smart way.

Fear makes me tense up and not respond in a relaxed way. Now rather then mask fear with attiributes, I aspire to replace it with technical comfort. 

What I notice is that the more I put myself in bad situations and work out to place of comfort, then suddenly I had more comfortable places! 

To do this in a relaxed way is the fun part. Relaxed means following the shortest most leverage effective path to accomplish any goal. So many ways so much room for creativity with effectiveness. I love that. 



> Formlessness is non-existent in martial arts for purposes of training. Every time a person practices a movement for speed, power, or understanding, with or without a partner, they are practicing form.


This is where your missing out. Examine the use of water and wind for more intensive understanding of form thru amplified biofeedback. Go lunge across the pool 10 times and tell me that's not making you a better martial artist. You have to use form, yet really get it, you have to be formless enough to blend with slight currents to get it right. Subtles that gravity mask. Also it developes long chain muscle groups and transitional core strength.

Go do push hand with a training partner waist deep in a pool and see how much more 'light' you both become. It's fun, where theres fun there is enthusiasm and energy. You can't punch a bag as hard as you can forever, but you could do push hands in a pool for a long time. 

My point here is just to have fun bro. Elemental immersion provides an atomosphere of unpredicatability not experienced in daily activity, and only partially amplified while practicing martial art in a vacuum. 



> Geese Dave, lighten up. Yes, quality drilling can help quite a bit. In fact, without it you will get killed. It's an invaluable training tool. You have to walk before you run (See I can philosophize too)


Hey man, I'm being totally light, I'm just saying that the wind is fun and I like to play in it and your saying that's worthless and I'm nuts, that this doesn't make my martial art any better... but I'm saying that it does.... and it's fun to play in the wind. Isn't it ironic your telling me to lighten up while I'm telling you to go play in the wind? 

It's fun, you gotta try it! Things will start alligning differently. 



> Did I say something about college students and herbal substances in a previous post? Have you been watching re-runs of the Kung Fu TV series? Sorry to inform you...Carrdine is an actor. Kwai Chang Kane was a fictional character. Chinese martial arts were not necessarily created by philosphizing monks on secluded mountain tops. This may be what we Westerners _want_ to hear, but it isn't necessarily the truth.


I associate with people on a daily basis that are very effective fighters that believe all kinds of things. 

Mike listen: I'm not romantisizing, I'm genuinely searching for truth. If there is no truth to be found in martial art then I will have to discover that eventually. But so far, I have found the opposite; many truths in martial art that translate into daily living in ways that turns responsibility into a pleasure instead of a struggle. 

Is that circular to you? Learning real problem solving skills that work in the hear and now? I think that practical living requires the ability to transform energy on many levels, not just physical. It's the inability to transform energy that plagues people with emotional problems. 


"I study so that if someone trys to harm my family or myself I can defend against it. I study so that those I teach can do the same. If someone wants to "communicate" with me in a harmful way they will eat my fist."

Your studying one extreme in a full spectrum of body language. There is no healing science in hung gar? Is that correct? 



> A brief history of all Southern Chinese fighting systems in broad terms:
> These fighting systems were devloped by fighters who needed practical methods of defending themselves from, and fighting back against an oppressive and militant government. They were used to kill and to prevent from being killed in those pursuits. Hung Gar is included in this broad spectrum history. It is a fighting system based on necessity and practicality.


Cool. I'll research it. I get the general impression from other readings that
there are many philosophical influences in martial art by buddhism and taoist philosophy.



> I think you have no idea what my understanding of kung fu or combat science is. Let me tell you that I know the difference between the real deal and a Mcmartial art. Do you? Belts mean nothing.


I don't, that's why we're sharing information on the internet right? Or is this some kind of fetish for you? <lol>

I wouldn't know without touching someone or moving in proximity with them. 



> Kung fu is in the hands.


Can you expound on this? That's a good one. Although I'm under the impression that the hands are connected to the ground thru the center of gravity, and that we can fling gravity around ourselves in elipses, but I usually do that job with my hips and footwork, how is your kung fu in your hands? 



> Kung fu is not practicing forms in the wind.


Stand in one place long enough to connect the whole beyond the pain of any one part and the wind quickly becomes a medium to be exercised within. Your friend to have conversations with. By practicing only an external form of martial art your missing out on making these connections. 

Mike you honestly talk like your half way decent at fighting and can defend yourself well! I bet we would have great training, and learn much from each other... 

...but your not talking like you want to understand movement in totality, you're talking like you only want to know how to hurt people. Not how to move more effectively all the time. You should experiment with movement more. Learn how to ride a unicycle or something. Your being very aggresive and I wonder if you have an aggresive personality when you deal with people face to face when in deep conversation. 

[/QUOTE]Wrong. The most effective fighters in history are never heard from. You present a very romanticised version of combat. For example: Samurai texts from the 19th century are full of codes, honor, art, and philosophy. Samurai texts from earlier periods are full of body counts, troop movements, and gritty details related to battle. Why? Because the later Samurai texts where of a period where there was no war, when the Samurai had to justify thier existence. Note: they aren't around now. 
[/QUOTE] 
Yeah totally. I think though that documented history was controled by warlords with interests of warlords. The samurai were a product of a groomed culture of fishermen from China and the influences of Zen Buddhism upon their Way of living. The effectiveness of applying those philosophical influences to life and death situations is reflected in history books accordingly within peace and war. Body counts body war, poetry during peace. Very Japanese.

Every culture has it's cycles of war and peace. We have our paradoxial cycles of love and hate. Good observation. But don't you think that's kind of unique to the Way of the 'japanese' vs the 'way' of the chinese? There are some cultural distinctions, in their martial arts as well I think. 



> What a load of poo! Are you trying to sell to us that the Gracies and Machados are that great? Theya re skilled at what they do. They are skilled businessmen as well. BJJ and modern "grappling' with a few rare exceptions will get you killed on a battlfield with multiple opponents, weapons, and the need for efficiency. If the SEALS are trianing with these guys it's because its a good set of skills to compliment thier other training. Have you been in the military? I have. I can assure you that if BJJ and "grappling" was that great then every soldier from the lowliest private to a 4 star general would be training in it.


Well, I have trained with army rangers who liked it too. And my name aint Gracie or Machado. I'm Dave. And I think your right, it's a set of skills that was neglected for a long time but is now being combined with the whole picture. 

You know though that modern hand to hand engagement is taking place in smaller places as a result of urban fighting. The military has gradually changed tactics to adapt to increase urban buildup. I.E. MOUT. The hand to hand combat the military teaches is evolving because of this. Things change. No more trench warfare. There are no walls on the open battlefeild. It's good to know how to scrap someone off your back with a wall. 

And you know there are a lot more PD and Mil guys training grappling now then kung fu. I have personally worked with at least half a dozen PD guys that work in the worst princinct here. And know of at least 2 other groups in Portland alone that train in central city PD's, and they arn't spending hours practicing forms or punching a bag. Their grappling. Would they do fu in the wind? ehhh... probably not! heh. 

But why are they DOING it? Because Grappling provides the individual with a foundation called Positional Dominance. A safe neutral place to use as a base to lanch any attack or defense you need. 

Grab a pair of handcuffs and then go put them on an average highschool wrestler. It'll take 3 guys if they don't know what they are doing.

Alive training answers the "what if's" of the academy with applied action. Not just a try this or try that theory. 

And that's most of the defensive tactics at academies. What if's and Pain compliance don't work on people who neither predicable nor compliant. 

Repeating a few movements in acadamy without continued training doesn't produce officers with good judgement during stressful situations. Continued training in a progressive and evolutional way does.

I have had the honor of training with our local PD, and I know this to be fact. PD wants stuff that works everytime. They want things that increase an officers ability to make sound judgements under stress. Thus, the training that works on the street and that cops KNOW works on the street is training in an alive environment. Technique that they can FEEL work real time, when they are honestly resisting each other.

Mike I don't think it's the 'range' of grappling that attracts them... having to be close to a bad guy on his terms is not good... but here is what I think attracts them. The unpredicatability of training with aliveness. This produces officers that respond with a cool head under pressure. 

Police have much stricter use of force matrix's then the military does. And here's where the problem starts for them. The defensive tactics training that the average officer recieves in acadamy doesn't prepare him for unpredicability in physical conflict. The need to feel in control is important for an officer to make good decisions. Because of a lack of preparedness control is not maintained and unneeded injury and in some cases death occurs because an officer escalated his use of force continuum out of fear. 

Training in a live way can help prevent these tragedies. But what is special about grappling? Why grappling? Training in grappling is a way to continually move with people in real ways without the traumatic impact of striking. You can 'play' strike every single day, but you can't really hit, but you can really throw and lock and choke and knee ride, everything except that snap of a strike. 

Do it over and over all the time you have cops that feel good if someone decides to grab them. Not cops that are afraid and worked up in the face of conflict. But cops who have spent the time to think thru everything on the training floor, and train, and when reality strikes, you have all that smart training to fall back on, you have auto pilot that responds accordingly You get cops that can handle themselves understress and 'respect the tap'. When the chase is done the criminal is handcuffed and justice is served. There arn't extra smackdowns and roughness. Justice is achieved and exercised thru superior use of resources and proper response, not from fear reactions. 



> Most forms champions will probably never _have_ to fight for thier life. Are you experienced in this arena?


I have never had to fight for my life. You? I have worked directly with officers though who deal with life and death physical conflict. I speak their language and understand the use of force matrix that those in authority to take life have to follow in order to be justified. The training methods we have employed have proven effective in controlling situations of physical conflict with bad guys bent on hurting people. 



> The only wind I want to feel when I train is a strike passing by or my training partner's breath being expelled. Have you practice grappling in the wind? Why? Did it make you better, or did it have some "deeper meaning" to it?


The pool is better for grappling. The core muscle groups are worked and increased balance and coordinated use of long chain muscle groups is achived. The wind isn't like that. It's more aerodynamic. 

I used to wonder about arm geometry, what was the perfect neutral arm position in any stance? Cat Horse Side Wu Ji Universal ready, etc. Every art has some stances. From boxing to aikido. 

What if they're all just little modifications of a core geometry that feeds all of them? Why arn't we talking about universal truths we can both connect to? 

Put your hand out the window and feel how airflow changes as you change the shape of your hand. If you change the shape of your hand while swimming your move thru the water different. Universal truth. 

If you change your hand into the 'drilling fist of xing yi' while your pommeling in grappling, it's really an effective way to get an underhook. or drill a floating rib... hey everything has it's place. 

The power of moving with playful exploration teaches just as many facts as sparring to submission. It's just a matter of processing those facts and integrating them into your game. The inability to process information is the responsibility of the practitioner. Everything he has to learn is right in front of him. Other people are just guiding us to understand what's already here. 

Wind or water, it's a form Biofeedback. Biofeedback is a way to actively take part in processes that are not normally conscious. This includes alligning and cooridnating body mechanics to minute degrees. 

Any activity that helps me understand the 'essense' of movement is good. 

That could be a dance with my wife. Movement is movement. Who's leading and who's following? Nature is an excellent teacher. 

Maybe you've already felt it and you've dismissed those sensations. Ever lean into a strong wing and say to yourself, wow... that's cool. Ever float on your back in the ocean? We have a diverse range of elemental interaction. Each is a form of biofeedback.

Wind or water, it's just a form of biofeedback. Any form of biofeedback that i can experience thru kinesthetic physics is of benifit to me. I think that surfing is benificial to martial art. It seems to me your putting martial art in a nice little compartmentalized box of fighting. If anything is western, it's that. I think you know that, and that's the way you want it. A way to defend yourself. That's nobel and totally honorable. I respect that completely. 



> No Dave, I just ask questions and expect people to spoon feed me the answers. Really, that was the most mind numbing question I've ever been asked. Here's one for you: Do you ever not talk in circles?


So what kind of questions do you wonder about progress in martial art? Do you think it can be a transformative process for people? Are is it all just punching and kicking? Nothing more to it? You realize we havn't even been discussing ideas behind 'chi', and already we're differing on a lot of topics, but we're learning more about each other! The more information the clearer the whole picture! Onward! 

Regards,

Dave in Oregon


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## grappling_mandala (Aug 1, 2004)

PS- I also like to try and stand in one place without moving my feet on the local commuter train while its going thru corners, starting and stopping. It forces smooth weight transfer, "gripping", and counter balancing, in relationship to REAL transitional movement occuring around you. Train at the edge of your balance skills to make your balance better of coarse! Do you think this is obsessive or "strange"...  How does this benifit anything other than an obsession with smoother movement? Well... so far it hasn't benifited anyone but me, and that's the point, it works for me. If it doesn't work for you don't do it, but don't tell me it doesn't work for me. So far it's a productive obsession, and its better then lower back pain. 

Dave


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## RHD (Aug 1, 2004)

Dave, take a few steps back here.  What is your actual experience training in Chinese martial arts?  Not with people who've studied them, but with what system(s) and how much time in it(them) do you have?  Let's establish some background here before we get to universal truths.  

For myself, I've been involved with martial "arts" since I was 11 or 12.  I'm 34 now.  The last 14 or so have solely been in Chinese martial arts, Hung Gar at the base.  Now with little exception it is all I study.  I have in the past: studied kenpo, TKD, judo, a smattering of various kung fu styles, and was an amateur kick boxer in my late teens.  I have had to defend myself on more than one occasion though nothing like that has occurred for several years and I do not look forward to ever having to do so again.  I have fought what some would call "full contact" against boxers, kick boxers, and BJJer's and trained with some "SWAT" types in the past, but now I devote my training and teaching time in the Hung Gar system as realistically and practically as I can.  I am not involved with any aspects of traditional Chinese medicine that do not apply directly with combative uses. I do not actively train with a sifu or master, but rather correspond with others within the Hung system whom I respect for thier skill.  I teach a small group of private students who are interested in learning self defense and fighting from the Hung system.  Am I aggressive...yes in many ways.  I am definately passionate about my opinions on Chinese martial arts, mainly that they are meant to be martial and that there's way too much silliness and goofy behavior being passed off as kung fu these days.  For the record, I have plenty of other interests outside of kung fu, but I'm not on Martial Talk to discuss those.

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Aug 2, 2004)

You have been uninterested in my background until now? Quick back ground then back to the subject at hand ok?

Hung Gar is not an internal system, I do not expect you to practice standing meditation, BUT if your in my thread, you should discuss the topic at hand. 

*The conversation actually has to do with: *

*STILLNESS and MOTION*

*Our tangents: *

*1. Whether or not the martial artist can use biofeedback to his advantage? *

*2. What relationship does biofeedback have with stillness? (or with silliness as you say)*

*3. What universal truths if any connect different art forms together? *


Hopefully we can continue the conversation after this interlude. 

In:

1975: I was an egg.
1976: I was born. 
1979: I fell off my toybox and busted open my lip. 
1988: my dad gave me the tao of jeet kune do for christmas. That was great.
1993-1997: yee chuan kung fu / wing chun with Rhys Williams 
1994-1998: judo / jiu jitsu / kick boxing w/ Dave Minden
1998-present: brazillian jiu jitsu w/ sbg and various mentors around the world
1999-present: yee chuan with Sifu Vendrell
2000-2003: worked with PD members teaching ISR curriculum to PD. I am not certified in ISR. I play bad guy, and helped teach fundamentals of positional dominance as it relates to PD use of force matrix. 
2002-present: nine psalms with Sifu Moses

Talk to me, don't compare yourself to me. I want to know what you think based on what you've done, not just what you've 'done'. 

Can we get back on topic? 

Dave in Oregon


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## RHD (Aug 2, 2004)

> grappling_mandala said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dave, I think you already have strong opinions on the topic.  I'm not much of a philosophy/meditation/universal truths seeker.  In fact, I see things in rather mundane terms.  I'd rather be training specifically in what I'm studying that doing forms in the wind or running in the water and thinking about it.  If you're trying to dig deeper into Mike's mind then you've tunneled as deep as you will get.  Read into that what you like, and fell free to snicker over it if it helps you.  However, if it's conversation on these topics, beyond what I've engaged in, then look to others on this board for thier input.  I'm sure there's plenty of others here now that are more in tune with your ideals.

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Aug 2, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> What I mean is skill is represented tangibly and quite literally tactile.


Yup, ultimately that's what it comes down too. 



			
				RHD said:
			
		

> I'm sure there's plenty of others here now that are more in tune with your ideals.
> 
> Mike


Well, at least we know a little more about each other now. So it's not a waste. I apprieciate your time.

Dave


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