# tactical folders and self defense



## erich (Jan 2, 2004)

My apologies if this is a rehash...

The more I think about it the more dubious the tactical folding knife seems to me as a tool for self-defense. 

1. if it is carried in such a way that it is easy to deploy, it will be easy for an assailant to see and to take 

2. All legal issues aside, if it ever is deployed, given #1, it must be deployed early enough that a wide range of potential outcomes for all involved parties including de-escalation is immediately narrowed to kill/maim/disable, or flee. Not a good trade imo 

This is of course only from the civilian perspective where it is only carried for self-defense purposes as seems to be increasingly popular (maybe it is just the crazy martial arts paranoids I hang out with). 

I think I'll continue to leave my knives at home, except of course the swiss army knife with the bottle opener. 

comments?  If anybody knows of a sure-fire way to quickly deploy a concealed knife without fixating or fumbling that might change my opinion.

eric
seattle, WA


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## lhommedieu (Jan 2, 2004)

My friend James Seetoo wrote a good article for RealFighting.com that introduces some of the aspects of carrying a knife for self defence:

http://www.realfighting.com/1001/knife.htm

I used to like knives with the "clip" that attached to your belt line, pocket top, etc., but I recognize now that these print too easily.  Plus, years of neurotic, obsessive practice drawing meant that I had to buy pants more often than I could afford...

My predilction is simply to carry a legal-sized "pocket knife" (as I have since I was ten years old) and not worry about whether I can get it out fast enough to kill anythng that moves.  Chances are, if I have to think about whether or not I need to draw a "tactical folder," it's probably too late.  Rewrite the old admonition about "a bird in the hand" and you get the idea.  James' article addresses this issue admirably.

However, if I _were_ going to recommend a _folder_ that opened easily, I would probably steer towards the ones with the "horns" that catch on the edge of your pocket, etc.  These open up pretty quickly. 

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Cryozombie (Jan 3, 2004)

I carry a Columbia River M16-14 folder.

It has a "speed nub" on the back of the blade, and I can open the blade quicky with one hand using the same motion I use to take my hands out of my pocket, which is where I keep mine clipped.

Something about folders that is often overlooked IMHO, however, is the fact that most of them have MINIMAL handguard's... often no more than a nub or a divet for a finger.  

If you were to STAB something with that,  and strike something hard (like bone)  i feel (from experience) that your hand will slide past this minimal stop and slice YOU as opposed to your target.   Of course you can compensate for that, but its just my 2 cents.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 3, 2004)

> 1. if it is carried in such a way that it is easy to deploy, it will be easy for an assailant to see and to take



One could make that argument for any weapon, including a concealed handgun.  These are not so easy to hid as one might think.

Carrying the folder in the waistband under a shirt hides it much better than carrying a gun in like fashion.

And if you carry it openly, say in the pocket?  Seeing the weapon could be cause for the assailant to pause and reconsider his future actions.  If he sees the folder in your pocket, he very well might go on to find someone more temeritous and less likely to resist.  It is not always a deterrent, granted...but it can be.  Many "bad guys" are cowards by nature and not out to fight a potentially disasterous (for them) battle.

And then there is always weapons retention practice.  If you carry a knife, don a trainer and have your friends try and take it from you.  



> , it must be deployed early enough that a wide range of potential outcomes for all involved parties including de-escalation is immediately narrowed to kill/maim/disable, or flee. Not a good trade imo



If you pulled that knife it isn't to negotiate or bluff...its to USE.  De-escalation either wasn't an option or it was an option that failed.  One doesn't pull a knife and then attempt to de-escalate...however, if the presence of the knife causes a sudden deflation of the guys aggression (he drops to his knees and tearfully begs for mercy in front of six witnesses), common sense and the law demand you back off and not kill him.

Regards,


Steve


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## arnisador (Jan 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *If you were to STAB something with that,  and strike something hard (like bone)  i feel (from experience) that your hand will slide past this minimal stop and slice YOU as opposed to your target. *



Yes, no one ever talks about this, it seems, but "running up the blade" on a stab is areal possibility when there's little or no guard. I always mention it and it figures into what I do.

It's a tough call. As the article on short vs. long blade from Bill McGrath (that was recently cited in the FMA-General forum) points out, long blade tactics and short blade tactics differ, and witha  short blade you want to think about more stabs whereas with a long bladed knife you're going to do more cutting. But, with lots o fthese knives there's little protection against running up the blade if your stab stops short. You can try to pick soft and easily penetrated targets but you won't always hit them!


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *Something about folders that is often overlooked IMHO, however, is the fact that most of them have MINIMAL handguard's... often no more than a nub or a divet for a finger.
> 
> If you were to STAB something with that,  and strike something hard (like bone)  i feel (from experience) that your hand will slide past this minimal stop and slice YOU as opposed to your target.   Of course you can compensate for that, but its just my 2 cents. *





> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Yes, no one ever talks about this, it seems, but "running up the blade" on a stab is areal possibility when there's little or no guard. I always mention it and it figures into what I do.
> 
> It's a tough call. As the article on short vs. long blade from Bill McGrath (that was recently cited in the FMA-General forum) points out, long blade tactics and short blade tactics differ, and witha  short blade you want to think about more stabs whereas with a long bladed knife you're going to do more cutting. But, with lots o fthese knives there's little protection against running up the blade if your stab stops short. You can try to pick soft and easily penetrated targets but you won't always hit them! *



Gentlemen,

This is why most of my pocket knives would be considered illegal in many places. The handle has to big enough for me to hang on too, or get injured in the use.

It is a concern that many people do not refelct upon the results as well as they should.


Also recently, while working with another Member here *PAUL* at the WMAA Christmas Party, we just started to play and we were dressed in street clothes and Paul had is live blade in his pocket. I moved in for a stick grappling technique and I realized we were attached. My pocket had slide up under his clip and the balde had remained in his pocket. I stopped and told him I was caught on his blade. We removed it to off the matts and continued our play. As Paul had said, no live blades on the training floor, and as it was, our play was impromptu not planned.

It happens. In another case I asked a guy 'what if' as he was working out some questions about gun retention. He had a good fake model to demonstrate with. His training partner knew he was carrying, I did not. He asked me to demonstrate, what I meant in my what if, and as I did, I found my hand on his concealed weapon. I just said "opps, sorry" and continued.  He had moved properly, in my mind, only it was different from what he had done previously, hence my what if question.

Just some thoughts


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## Cruentus (Jan 4, 2004)

he he... That was pretty funny when our pockets got attatched (Rich and I), and a first for me! :rofl: 

Get something with a speed assisted opening system, like a Kershaw Ken Onion Scallion, or something with a "pocket Grabber"; Emerson has a couple. Cold Steel's "tac light" has a pocket grabber.

Then practice practice practice opening!

Also, I have not said this yet on this forum, I don't think, but I find it useful to practice tachniques that I would use with an unopened folder in case I can't open it in time. If your attacker has the drop on you, it doesn't matter how fast you can deploy the weapon; it will not be fast enough. So you need to defend by other means until you can deploy your weapon effectively. For example, I like to use my scallion as an impact tool to strike nerves and such prior to opening it for a "kill".

btw: on smaller folders, your grip makes a difference in preventing your fingers from "running up" the blade. I tend to use my thumb pressed along the ramp of my scallion in a forward grip rather then the standard "fist grip" for instance.


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## arnisador (Jan 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *on smaller folders, your grip makes a difference in preventing your fingers from "running up" the blade. I tend to use my thumb pressed along the ramp of my scallion in a forward grip rather then the standard "fist grip" for instance. *



True, and some designs are better than others for this, but it's still a risk!

Good point about using them as impact tools--I was talking about that tonight (teaching my son).


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## erich (Jan 5, 2004)

great input

thanks all


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## Gaucho (Jan 5, 2004)

Another trick that works well with a small folder or one that has no secure locking mechanism- e.g., axis lock- is to squeeze the pommel (back end) of the knife just in front of the wedge between your thenar and hypothenar eminences (the fleshy, muscular parts of your palm below the thumb and pinky, respectively) and to hold the blade open with the ball of your thumb laying on the flat of the blade.

Mario


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## tmanifold (Jan 19, 2004)

> . if it is carried in such a way that it is easy to deploy, it will be easy for an assailant to see and to take



This is one of the biggest myths about armed self defense out there. Taking a knife or a gun from some one is very hard. This is especially true of the individual who trains some sort of weapons retention skills (which any one who travels armed should). It is even harder to take a knife away from some one due to the fact that grabbing it could get you seriously cut. 
My personal belief is that because I carry a knife (for work) I should know how to use it to protect my person. It is a tool that I have at my disposal and it would be ludicris not to use it when it is available. If one was to follow this logic police officers should turn in their guns so the bad guys don't take them from them.


Tony


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## dearnis.com (Jan 20, 2004)

Problem: loss of weapon
Solution: train weapon retention

Problem:grip
Solution: practice different attacks on fixed objects so that you see what grips do and dont work.


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