# Christian Taekwondo



## dancingalone (May 13, 2010)

One of the other parishioners in my church is starting a physical fitness ministry using taekwondo as the main activity.  He knows I am a MA instructor and has asked me for my help as he has no prior experience running a program.

Thoughts?  I am generally opposed to mixing martial arts and religion, but I do believe the members of my church could benefit from another outlet to get physical exercise with perhaps some self-defense instruction.  I would also be pained to decline to help a fellow church member in a sincere attempt to improve the lives of others.


----------



## IcemanSK (May 13, 2010)

Like you, I have reservations about mixing my faith & MA. But I've realized that most of my concerns stem from what it might become at it's worst if it had the wrong teacher. Visions of a Christian TKD militia movement or some such thing come to mind. The reality is, if you have trust in the person running the program, it has the potential to be a great program. 

To have a Bible study &/or prayer as part of a TKD class in a church setting can be a wonderful thing. For some in the church, it might be the only way to get them to exercise. For others, it might be the way to get them into a Bible study. 

With you helping your friend with the MA part, & your minister helping with the faith part, I'm sure it will be an excellent program.


----------



## Manny (May 13, 2010)

For me there in no problem at all, one thing is the religion and other is the TKD/MA, you are going to teach TKD/MA not religion or the bible so go on and have a wonderful time.

Manny


----------



## wushuguy (May 13, 2010)

I know such thing is possible, but I don't know how to best tie in a bible study to a physical activity. Good luck with it.

Someone once told me of a Christian Yoga: http://praisemoves.com/

So surely a Christian TKD or bible study+TKD can be done.


----------



## igillman (May 13, 2010)

I have heard of Christians not taking part in the Martial Arts because they think that it is also about Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism or any one of any other religions. By calling it "Christian TKD" they will attract the crowd who are scared off due to misconceptions about what a Martial Art is all about. The misconception usually stems from hearing about meditation taking place in the class and equating meditation with another religion.

I say "Go For It" but make sure that anybody who joins knows that it will be a mix of Martial Arts and Christianity just in case they have issues with it.


----------



## girlbug2 (May 13, 2010)

Sounds like it has potential to be great. 

One caveat, presuming your friend is called to do this as his ministry--do YOU feel called to do this? A rule of thumb for any ministry is that the people involved must truly have a calling for it. Not just roped in because they feel obligated or guilty. God will never guilt you into doing anything for Him. Remember, that if you are *not* called, but this ministry _is_ meant to be, God will lead your friend to another person who is meant to be the TKD instructor. 

With that, you have my prayers


----------



## dancingalone (May 13, 2010)

Manny said:


> For me there in no problem at all, one thing is the religion and other is the TKD/MA, you are going to teach TKD/MA not religion or the bible so go on and have a wonderful time.





igillman said:


> I have heard of Christians not taking part in  the Martial Arts because they think that it is also about Buddhism,  Hinduism, Satanism or any one of any other religions. By calling it  "Christian TKD" they will attract the crowd who are scared off due to  misconceptions about what a Martial Art is all about. The misconception  usually stems from hearing about meditation taking place in the class  and equating meditation with another religion.





wushuguy said:


> I know such thing is possible, but I don't know  how to best tie in a bible study to a physical activity. Good luck with  it.
> 
> Someone once told me of a Christian Yoga: http://praisemoves.com/
> 
> So surely a Christian TKD or bible study+TKD can be done.



Thank you, gentlemen.  To be clear, I am very sure there will be some type of mixing of Christian concepts and values directly into the physical practice of TKD somehow.  The person who wants to start this is a lecturer in philosophy and the classics at a local private university, so he has the background to integrate the two worlds quite readily.

Those of you who practice the Palgwes or the Taegeuks...Imagine if the trigrams are replaced with some other symbolism taken from Christianity and taught with references to lessons from the Bible.  Or if you do the Chang Hon patterns, what if they are renamed for people and events out of the Bible instead of Korean history and culture?

I myself don't necessarily think the altering of the forms in this way is necessarily a bad thing, but hopefully you might have a bit more insight into what "Christian Taekwondo" would mean in my particular situation.


----------



## dancingalone (May 13, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> Sounds like it has potential to be great.
> 
> One caveat, presuming your friend is called to do this as his ministry--do YOU feel called to do this? A rule of thumb for any ministry is that the people involved must truly have a calling for it. Not just roped in because they feel obligated or guilty. God will never guilt you into doing anything for Him. Remember, that if you are *not* called, but this ministry _is_ meant to be, God will lead your friend to another person who is meant to be the TKD instructor.
> 
> With that, you have my prayers



Thanks!  This is a great point.  And no, I don't particularly feel called or moved by the idea.  I do feel a sense of obligation to help however since I have the skills to do so.


----------



## IcemanSK (May 13, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Thank you, gentlemen.  To be clear, I am very sure there will be some type of mixing of Christian concepts and values directly into the physical practice of TKD somehow.  The person who wants to start this is a lecturer in philosophy and the classics at a local private university, so he has the background to integrate the two worlds quite readily.
> 
> *Those of you who practice the Palgwes or the Taegeuks...Imagine if the trigrams are replaced with some other symbolism taken from Christianity and taught with references to lessons from the Bible.  Or if you do the Chang Hon patterns, what if they are renamed for people and events out of the Bible instead of Korean history and culture?*
> 
> *I myself don't necessarily think the altering of the forms in this way is necessarily a bad thing, but hopefully you might have a bit more insight into what "Christian Taekwondo" would mean in my particular situation.*



I don't feel it's necessary to replace the symbolism of the Pal Gwes or Tae Geuks with Christian symbols. I would teach both symbols together, because teaching them together takes the "mystery" out of the Korean symbolism. 

Some interesting facts: The Chung Do Kwan first held classes in a Christian Church in Seoul when it started in 1944. GM Park, Hae Man (one of the designers of the Tae Geuks & Pal Gwes) is a Christian.


----------



## scottie (May 13, 2010)

My school is a Christian based karate school. Everyone knows that coming in. I don't make anyone do any of the praying or bible study. I try to be a Christian example to all of my students and lead by example. I say kinda like my friend said if you feel lead to do it go for it. I would be more concerned about making sure the two of you agree on the Martial Part of it. Forms, Tech., ETC... I would not read as much about mixing Christ with the MA. Simply put if you are a Christian, you are a Christian Martial Artist.

Good luck if you need any help let me know.
Scottie:asian:


----------



## KELLYG (May 13, 2010)

I don't have a problem with a Christian based (people wise) organization  for people that train in Martial Arts.  How to combine them, I do not know, with out super imposing them upon each other, which in my opinion will not work.  The heritage of both will be shortchanged somehow.


----------



## StudentCarl (May 13, 2010)

An interesting question as to whether something must be changed or even re-labeled to become Christian. Personally I don't think of activities as Christian so much as people. I think it is possible to engage in an activity with reverence or in a prayerful manner, and that makes it what I think you seek. 

Are Christian church pews different from Jewish pews? Does a candle need to be called a prayer candle to be used as one?

I see potential both ways in the idea you discuss. Good luck with it, and please share what results.

Carl


----------



## wushuguy (May 13, 2010)

KELLYG said:


> I don't have a problem with a Christian based (people wise) organization  for people that train in Martial Arts.  How to combine them, I do not know, with out super imposing them upon each other, which in my opinion will not work.  The heritage of both will be shortchanged somehow.



I agree, for me, when it's time to exercise, just exercise. no other thoughts or concerns, when it's time to pray, then pray. focus. they can be beneficial for each other though, but mixing it together, that will be a task. if it works out, hope you let us know.


----------



## Nomad (May 13, 2010)

This seems like an odd, and more importantly, an unnecessary mix of two very different things to me.  It immediately reminded me of Hank Hill's quote about Christian Rock: "You people are not making Christianity any better, you're just making rock 'n' roll worse."

Personally, I think the two activities should be kept separate, and that the risk is real of twisting the teachings of both away from what you might want out of each individually.

I know people have done it, and I definitely know that these groups would not be for me.  However, different strokes and all that.  Best of luck no matter what you decide.


----------



## Carol (May 13, 2010)

A lot of these "martial arts ministries" that are popping up are for men only; women are excluded.  Is this one of those ministries?  Or does it exclude on some other uncomfortable boundary such as age or race?  

Its up to you to do whatever you think is right.  However, keep in mind you have a commitment to your current students.  Probably most folks wouldn't care if you get involved in a ministry on your own time, however if I was a student that I heard my MA teacher was involved in something that excluded a certain gender/race/age, I would not be happy at all.  

Step carefully.


----------



## dancingalone (May 13, 2010)

Carol said:


> A lot of these "martial arts ministries" that are popping up are for men only; women are excluded.  Is this one of those ministries?  Or does it exclude on some other uncomfortable boundary such as age or race?



I don't think there are any plans to exclude anyone, other than a relatively low age limit, somewhere around 8 or so.  My parish like many others in the region is very diverse in race.  The local bishop is Hispanic.



> Its up to you to do whatever you think is right.  However, keep in mind you have a commitment to your current students.  Probably most folks wouldn't care if you get involved in a ministry on your own time, however if I was a student that I heard my MA teacher was involved in something that excluded a certain gender/race/age, I would not be happy at all.
> 
> Step carefully.



Not a factor at all but thanks for your thoughts!  The time management point is well-taken.


----------



## ynnad (May 13, 2010)

I am a pastor and BB TKD. I teach a weekly fitness and martial arts class for men and women at my church. At this point they are separate just because they started separate but will probably combine into something a little more structured and formal where they advance through a curriculum. So far it has been wonderful. I have teens to seniors, in shape to couch potatoes. We do a mixture of traditional TKD, self defense, and cardio/strength. I have about 20 regulars total. We raised some funds and bought some mats. Every person involved would not have signed up at a commercial site. So, in that regard, I feel like I'm making a huge difference in their lives. 

I tend to avoid the idea of "Christian" Martial Arts. There is nothing decidedly Christian about MA. What makes it Christian is the people involved and our attitudes toward each other. Sometimes I pray before we start, but don't do any sort of Bible study. In fact, I think that would kill it. People would see it as just a ploy to get them into Bible study. Also, whatever connections you tried to make would be stretched at best. Early on I did deal with the issue of Christianity and non-violence. My point is that confidence and training are a means to non-violence. Violence feeds off weakness. Moreover, the "turn the other cheek" command is exactly what we are doing. This was an aspect of honor/shame culture where a slap on the face was a sign of expressing superiority over another. To give it a contemporary application, if someone wants to belittle me, insult me, I will just absorb it in an act of humility to assure non-violent ends. I have no need to save face. I know where my identity lies and no bully can take that away. If someone wants to take my coat, my wallet, my pin number, I will gladly give them that and more if my life or my families life is at stake. What Jesus did not say is that if someone is violently attacking you or your family, you should stand there and let them. 

What I have found is that people greatly appreciate it. Some older guys just like getting some physical activity, the young guys like to think they are in ninja training, the women like it for the "cardio kickboxing" feel to stay in shape.      

I wish you all the best. Keep us updated. 

Grace and Peace, :asian:

Danny


----------



## ynnad (May 13, 2010)

Nomad said:


> This seems like an odd, and more importantly, an unnecessary mix of two very different things to me.  It immediately reminded me of Hank Hill's quote about Christian Rock: "You people are not making Christianity any better, you're just making rock 'n' roll worse."



Maybe in the early days, but now we have Skillet, Switchfoot, Thousand Foot Krutch, Hawk Nelson...

These are legitimate mainstream bands. 

Sorry for the highjack, but wanted to give a shout out to the good Christian Rock out there, It has been a blessing to a parent of teenagers.

Grace and Peace,

Danny


----------



## CrimsonPhoenix (May 13, 2010)

My instructors started their class in a church, and in my experience, I think having a Christian-based Tae Kwon Do class can be a good idea. 

My instructors begin class with prayer and we learn verses. Other than that, they teach Tae Kwon Do. It works out really well and I enjoy it.

We don't incorporate a Bible study into class, but my instructors do let us know that if we have any questions about the Bible or God, then they would be happy to answer them.


----------



## thardey (May 13, 2010)

My perspective is similar to others here -- if you want to do a martial arts class, so a martial arts class!

If you want to do a Bible study, do a Bible Study!

I do see the point of calling it a "Christian Martial Art," though, since I've had many conversations with Christians who are concerned that Eastern Martial Arts are tied to other religions, and they are concerned about that.

But to look at it from another perspective: Many Churches have softball teams, bowling teams, golf teams, etc. They don't go out of their way to make it "Christian Softball" where they feel the need to change terms, symbols, and rules to fit a "Christian Worldview" they just play softball trying to do it in a way that that's loving, respectful, and a good witness to others who are watching.

I don't see any need to push "Christian Martial Arts" beyond that.


----------



## clfsean (May 13, 2010)

thardey said:


> I do see the point of calling it a "Christian Martial Art," though, since I've had many conversations with Christians who are concerned that Eastern Martial Arts are tied to other religions, and they are concerned about that.



Funny... only in the west.


----------



## dancingalone (May 13, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Funny... only in the west.




I think calling it "Christian Martial Arts" is actually well-done if one has an intention to imbue the training with ideas and values derived from the Gospels and the Bible.  At the very least, it's honest.


----------



## clfsean (May 13, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I think calling it "Christian Martial Arts" is actually well-done if one has an intention to imbue the training with ideas and values derived from the Gospels and the Bible.  At the very least, it's honest.



But it's not really honest when you label a martial art with a certain slant when the majority of Asian Martial Arts aren't religious in nature or context. 

Putting ideas & values on something when there's no base for them isn't exactly up & up, is it?

I'm just asking for the sake of discussion. Your views are yours & if you find like minded people to practice with, then all the best.


----------



## wushuguy (May 13, 2010)

clfsean said:


> But it's not really honest when you label a martial art with a certain slant when the majority of Asian Martial Arts aren't religious in nature or context.
> 
> Putting ideas & values on something when there's no base for them isn't exactly up & up, is it?
> 
> I'm just asking for the sake of discussion. Your views are yours & if you find like minded people to practice with, then all the best.



Actually most eastern martial arts are religious. dojo, is a place to study "do" or in chinese "dao" which is a religion, daoist, mainly.

even TKD, also has many religious teachings, although most of the religious side of martial arts are lost to us western people, but they are there if you pay attention. 

Religions tend to teach one how to live a way of life, so that's why so many martial artists say, such and such art is their way of life, ie. that's their religion.

So, i think adding a "Christian" brand to the set of movements, although seemingly awkward, it isn't different than the original art, which one would practice daoism albeit unknowingly. So, even those masters who say their art isn't a religion, then why are there daoist teachings and overtones in the arts?


----------



## clfsean (May 13, 2010)

wushuguy said:


> Actually most eastern martial arts are religious. dojo, is a place to study "do" or in chinese "dao" which is a religion, daoist, mainly.



In almost 30 years, I've only come across 1 that was remotely religious & that had a shinto influence to it.

In CMA which I teach, I have yet to see any martial art referred to as "dao" or have "dao" with the meaning of "path" or "way" associated with it in the name or focus. Internal martial arts are associated (incorrectly I might add) with Daoism. They're no more Daoist than Fut Ga is the actual "Buddha Style".



wushuguy said:


> even TKD, also has many religious teachings, although most of the religious side of martial arts are lost to us western people, but they are there if you pay attention.



Like where in what? 



wushuguy said:


> Religions tend to teach one how to live a way of life, so that's why so many martial artists say, such and such art is their way of life, ie. that's their religion.



Eh... I don't think so. It's not anymore a religion than it is for the guy that hits a bucket of golf balls after work a couple of days a week for XX years. It's just what we do. Trying to attach a religious connotation to that isn't quite right either.



wushuguy said:


> So, i think adding a "Christian" brand to the set of movements, although seemingly awkward, it isn't different than the original art, which one would practice daoism, albeit unknowingly.



No... the practice of Daoism is a specific set of studied precepts, just like any religion.


----------



## terryl965 (May 13, 2010)

All I know is the Kick for Christ programs is one of the biggest in the United States with more than million people, so is it possible yes. How to do it is beyond me.


----------



## wushuguy (May 13, 2010)

from wikipedia: A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth.



clfsean said:


> Like where in what?
> 
> No... the practice of Daoism is a specific set of studied precepts, just like any religion.



Martial Arts don't have a "god" but most arts consider the way they practice as an "ultimate truth" or a way of life comprising their beliefs (moral values, etc), ways of practicing what they believe (example: reciting student creeds, religions often recite creeds which reflect their belief and how they will practice, also including meditations, etc.), and most people who practice feel that the art they learn is part of their life or made their life more meaningful, etc.

I used to work in a TKD school and also karate school. There they really indoctrinate the students with philosophies of life, akin to a religion, and try to "change" their followers. One I worked at even the grandmaster was going so far as to teach the students the way of enlightenment, and claims that if people do tae kwon do, that is the way to "forever happiness" and other BS. I know that example of him is on the extreme end, however there are a number that will teach varying degrees of life philosophy in the martial arts.

Now, I understand that not all teacher will teach a martial art with religious overtones, for example in wing chun, we just showed up, worked out, and left. none of the ceremonies or whatever that some places have, we treated it as a sport, like golf as in your example.

However some qigong or other meditation exercises done in martial arts schools are the same ones done in daoist monasteries, so if one practices the same things as the daoists, it's similar to one who goes to a catholic church and practices the rosary. maybe you go there and don't feel it as a religion, but then practicing it that way would look certainly like one.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 13, 2010)

If it is in the context of a church ministry, it really is a no brainer.  

Your students are members of the church and most likely simply want a physical activity within the church environment.

Since the core values of most martial arts dovetail reasonably well with Christian values, making an art like taekwondo or aikido work within a church environ is not much of a challenge.

Also, since your students all share the same belief system, you don't have to worry about whether or not your Christian slant will offend any of them.

Now, if it is in the context of a stand alone business with spreading the gospel as part of the mission, you run into a very different dynamic.  In this case, every potential student needs to be told in no uncertain terms and up front that the school is Christian.  If they choose to join and end up not liking it, the worst that they can say is that they tried it and it wasn't for them.  

If you act like its just a regular TKD school, sign them up, then start opening class with a prayer, then you may have some unhappy people who feel misled.

Daniel


----------



## clfsean (May 13, 2010)

wushuguy said:


> from wikipedia: A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth.



Wow... I've been wiki'd!! Wonder if it's similiar to being Rick'rolled?



wushuguy said:


> Martial Arts don't have a "god" but most arts consider the way they practice as an "ultimate truth" or a way of life comprising their beliefs (moral values, etc), ways of practicing what they believe (example: reciting student creeds, religions often recite creeds which reflect their belief and how they will practice, also including meditations, etc.), and most people who practice feel that the art they learn is part of their life or made their life more meaningful, etc.



Name me one that does that with a strictly religious background. 



wushuguy said:


> I used to work in a TKD school and also karate school. There they really indoctrinate the students with philosophies of life, akin to a religion, and try to "change" their followers. One I worked at even the grandmaster was going so far as to teach the students the way of enlightenment, and claims that if people do tae kwon do, that is the way to "forever happiness" and other BS. I know that example of him is on the extreme end, however there are a number that will teach varying degrees of life philosophy in the martial arts.



That's called cultish. Which I guess in a sense is the same as an organized religion. BUT for the the topic of this discussion, isn't the point because it didn't come from the martial art's background. That's the teacher's influence & personal beliefs & dogma coming out & being espoused.



wushuguy said:


> Now, I understand that not all teacher will teach a martial art with religious overtones, for example in wing chun, we just showed up, worked out, and left. none of the ceremonies or whatever that some places have, we treated it as a sport, like golf as in your example.



Funny... you should've at least bowed to a sun toi, but otherwise that's about the size of it for most martial arts, minus the sport inflection. It's just something that's done because... <insert reason here>.



wushuguy said:


> However some qigong or other meditation exercises done in martial arts schools are the same ones done in daoist monasteries, so if one practices the same things as the daoists, it's similar to one who goes to a catholic church and practices the rosary. maybe you go there and don't feel it as a religion, but then practicing it that way would look certainly like one.



Yeah... so what. There are lawyers & accountants that work for churches, doesn't make 'em priests, although they could be. 

Daoism is a prescribed path. In China there are multiple arts that all share different qigong methods. Do you actually know what qigong is & is used for? Qigong does not a Daoist make. The serious tried & true Daoist will go much farther than a simple exercise like a qigong.


----------



## dancingalone (May 13, 2010)

clfsean said:


> But it's not really honest when you label a martial art with a certain slant when the majority of Asian Martial Arts aren't religious in nature or context.
> 
> Putting ideas & values on something when there's no base for them isn't exactly up & up, is it?



I'm afraid I don't follow your line of reasoning.  Adding 'Christian' to 'Taekwondo' would indicate a definite alteration of the original.  You are adding or changing the base and it's declared up front.  It's like a hamburger and a cheeseburger.  Cheeseburger is an apt description for the product since it's a hamburger with a slice of cheese added.  Christian taekwondo would be taekwondo with Christian worship/study added or substituted in somehow.


----------



## clfsean (May 13, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm afraid I don't follow your line of reasoning.  Adding 'Christian' to 'Taekwondo' would indicate a definite alteration of the original.  You are adding or changing the base and it's declared up front.  It's like a hamburger and a cheeseburger.  Cheeseburger is an apt description for the product since it's a hamburger with a slice of cheese added.  Christian taekwondo would be taekwondo with Christian worship/study added or substituted in somehow.



Then it's no longer Taekwondo either. You can't have both. 

It's similar to "non-alcoholic beer". That's an oxymoron. Beer is a fermented beverage that during the fermintation process due to the ingredients, produces an ethyl alcohol content. Remove that part of it & you've got something different. 

You're adding something foreign to something that doesn't have it. It's not changing flavors i.e. Baptist to Methodist. You're wanting to fundamentally change its base. 

Call it "Dancing's Raging Fist of God" or something like that, but it's not TKD at that point.


----------



## dancingalone (May 13, 2010)

Are we talking about two different things, Sean?  What do you consider the base of taekwondo to be?  The tenets of General Choi?  None of those are incompatible with Christianity.  The physical techniques?  Those are style and lineage specific to begin with, and they surely will be taught and practiced.

I'm puzzled as to why you think adding some religious Christian study or symbolism makes the art of taekwondo not taekwondo.


----------



## AndrewKFM (May 13, 2010)

I am a member of the U.S. Chung Do Kwan association, and it's a Christian organization. I had to write a paper for my class about using Taekwondo as an evangelistic tool. Here's a little bit of it:

No right-minded person desires a strong body and a stupid mind, nor intelligence to spare with a frail physique. While many accept their weaknesses, most would certainly enjoy conquering them. This is the pivotal point that can be used to turn Taekwondo into an effective tool for Christ.

The Sell Team of the USCDKA teaches the importance of developing into a Whole Man. This Whole Man consists of strength in body, mind, and spirit (sellteam.org). The Sell Team philosophy is that when a person becomes enraptured in the conditioning of their mind and body, they grow much stronger than by training just one or the other. However, with all of their strength they will soon notice a void in their lives, an emptiness that all the physical conditioning and education in the world cannot fill. This is where the strength in spirit comes into play. The only thing that can fill the spiritual void in our lives is Jesus Christ. To reach our full potential in any area, we must condition our body and mind, as well as our spirit. 

In the USCDKA, a Black Belt does not simply indicate a mastery of basic martial arts skills, it represents victory over weakness in all areas of life. When one conditions the body, mind, and spirit to grow together, he has become a champion.

Still, the task at hand for crafting Taekwondo into an evangelistic tool, is to find a bridge. Someone may be willing to attend a Taekwondo demonstration, but not a church service. These people may require more than just being told that a strong spirit is important. Instead of aimlessly striving to convince one another of our different opinions, we should look for further common ground. Careful examination will reveal much similarity in great martial artists and faithful Christians. Self-control is the greatest asset to both; without it, the opposition has the upper hand. It is self-discipline that gives Taekwondo its great potential for outreach.

The self-control required to master the body and mind is unattainable without mastery of the spirit. From a Christian perspective, we have two natures within us that wage war. Our flesh would have us far from a righteous body and mind, while our spirit would have us a champion of both. Our body wants only what feels good, our mind tells us that sometimes we need what does not feel good, and our spirit allows us to choose the right path. A weak spirit will build mental barriers that the body and mind cannot break through, barriers that the spirit alone can shatter if only we would recondition it.

In addition to prayer and study of Gods Word, those who train under USCDKA principles, practice Poomse to strengthen their self-control and spirit. The Poomse train the spirit by demonstrating a need to perfect movements through repetition, a task that can only be completed with a strong spirit of patience. The Poomse condition the body and mind, but primarily teach self-control.


----------



## clfsean (May 14, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Are we talking about two different things, Sean?  What do you consider the base of taekwondo to be?  The tenets of General Choi?  None of those are incompatible with Christianity.  The physical techniques?  Those are style and lineage specific to begin with, and they surely will be taught and practiced.



Possibly but we are just just going to have to agree to disagree on the whole thing. I think it's a bad idea & you don't. Neither of us will change position.



dancingalone said:


> I'm puzzled as to why you think adding some religious Christian study or symbolism makes the art of taekwondo not taekwondo.



Because Taekwondo or for that notion, the majority of Asian martial arts are not religious backed & have no need for that to be interjected. 

If you want to teach TKD, teach it. If you want to teach a Bible study, teach it. But IMO, keep them separate like the church & state.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Possibly but we are just just going to have to agree to disagree on the whole thing. I think it's a bad idea & you don't. Neither of us will change position.


I guess bad idea vs. good idea is the  part that I don't subscribe to.  The question of whether it is being done 'at the church' or on church property has not been explicitly answered, but I gather that that is the case.

If that *is* indeed the case, then you are looking at the equivalent of the church volleyball team.  So long as it remains a group of people who are interested in a martial art and who are all Christian, then it is good for them, and probably of no interest to anyone else.



clfsean said:


> Because Taekwondo or for that notion, the majority of Asian martial arts  are not religious backed & have no need for that to be interjected.
> 
> If you want to teach TKD, teach it. If you want to teach a Bible study,  teach it. But IMO, keep them separate like the church &  state.


Most physical activities done in a church environment are simply opened and closed with a prayer, be they basketball, volleyball, or in this case, a martial art.  I get together with a group of Christian fencers and aside from the opening with a prayer asking God to bless our activity and a closing prayer thanking God for the time together and for the quality activity, you'd never know that it was a "Christian" group.  

I cannot speak for all churches, but in my own personal experience, most church activities that are not religious in nature (athletics being a good example) are not turned into Bible studies.  Generally, Christians already have a group for that which is dedicated to doing just that.  Even if the martial arts group is the exact same group of people, they are still showing up for a physical activity and use that time accordingly.  When they are in their study group, they likewise don't turn it into a basketball game or a karate practice.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (May 14, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Possibly but we are just just going to have to agree to disagree on the whole thing. I think it's a bad idea & you don't. Neither of us will change position.



Actually I stated up front I'm generally against mixing ma and religion.  But I am open to participating since I have been asked for my help.  You stated this was for discussion's sake, so have at it.  I'm genuinely interested in why you seem to have such a strident tone for a topic that is merely an intellectual exercise for you.




> Because Taekwondo or for that notion, the majority of Asian martial arts are not religious backed & have no need for that to be interjected.



I disagree.  There are strong influences from Zen Buddhism in many karate styles.  Now whether one thinks Zen is a religion or not can be up to discussion, but you're too dogmatic on this opinion of yours.  Suffice to say that many including some on this very thread would differ with your contention.



> If you want to teach TKD, teach it. If you want to teach a Bible study, teach it. But IMO, keep them separate like the church & state.



OK.  Care to explain why YOU think this is necessary?  It might make for interesting reading and would likely display what your understanding of what taekwondo is exactly.  

I'm still curious why you think mixing Christian ideals into taekwondo makes it not taekwondo.  Or have you dropped that position?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2010)

Just an aside, as this is really a separate issue from Dancing's specific question about helping out his friend, I had a thought.

Aikido definitely has a religious basis to it (Omoto Kyo), and Ueshiba created a new art (Aikido) rather than Omoto Kyo-ing Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu.  

Rather than Christian taekwondo, would it not be more appropriate to create an art that may be technically based on taekwondo, but geared towards what a Christian martial arts practitioner should be or should learn?

No right or wrong answer, and I can start a separate topic if people think that it is worth discussing.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (May 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The question of whether it is being done 'at the church' or on church property has not been explicitly answered, but I gather that that is the case.



Of course.  Free training area and the church is a logical gathering place for a church ministry.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I cannot speak for all churches, but in my own personal experience, most church activities that are not religious in nature (athletics being a good example) are not turned into Bible studies.



I am sure there will be some mental/spiritual dimensions to the training.  I discovered last night that the General Choi forms will be used.  Just as a loose example off the top of my head, it's not too hard to relate the first hyung, Chon-Ji, to a Scripture based lesson.  Chon-Ji means "Heaven and Earth".  I've been told that the pattern can symbolize Um and Yang and the dualism of the movements such as block and counter.  The translation seems obvious - one could possibly tell a homily about hardness and softness and turning the other cheek to an offense.  And that's just one interpretation.


----------



## dancingalone (May 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Rather than Christian taekwondo, would it not be more appropriate to create an art that may be technically based on taekwondo, but geared towards what a Christian martial arts practitioner should be or should learn?
> Daniel



That's an interesting thought.  What should a Christian martial artist NOT learn?  Striking which is surely designed to inflict damage on another?  Throws which can be even more destructive than a kick or punch?

As you know, Daniel, aikido was created with the philosophy that one should avoid hurting one's attacker as much as possible, to only defend oneself to the extent that is needed.  For this reason, many (most) aikido schools have no real striking practice at all, even though atemi is an assumed part of the techniques.  It makes no sense, but that's the path we find ourselves at today.

I myself find no need to limit any techniques in a Christian setting.  The faith is about doing right and being good to one another - it doesn't necessarily mean you adopt pacifism to the point of being a victim.  It doesn't mean you have to limit the effectiveness of your self-defense training when sincerely called to use in aid of yourself or others.

So no need to create a "new" system at all IMO.  You can train TKD effectively as a Christian.  Now whether we want to actually incorporate Christian studies during our physical practice of TKD is another question, which this thread is in part addressing.


----------



## clfsean (May 14, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Actually I stated up front I'm generally against mixing ma and religion.  But I am open to participating since I have been asked for my help.  You stated this was for discussion's sake, so have at it.  I'm genuinely interested in why you seem to have such a strident tone for a topic that is merely an intellectual exercise for you.



Well if you stated up front but yet you're participating in the exercise, isn't that kinda dishonest



dancingalone said:


> I disagree.  There are strong influences from Zen Buddhism in many karate styles.  Now whether one thinks Zen is a religion or not can be up to discussion, but you're too dogmatic on this opinion of yours.  Suffice to say that many including some on this very thread would differ with your contention.



You won't find a karate-do style coming out of a Japanese Buddhist temple with the precepts of Daruma taishi. The Founders of the various styles of karate may have been Buddhists & taken some of their personal views in the styling of their method, but there's nothing overtly Buddhist about or espoused karate.



dancingalone said:


> OK.  Care to explain why YOU think this is necessary?  It might make for interesting reading and would likely display what your understanding of what taekwondo is exactly.



My understanding of TKD was 10+ years learning & teaching it prior to & then away from the sportification of it. My understanding came from a line that left prior to General Choi's "unification/nationalization" of it. 



dancingalone said:


> I'm still curious why you think mixing Christian ideals into taekwondo makes it not taekwondo.  Or have you dropped that position?



Because the two don't mix.


----------



## dancingalone (May 14, 2010)

Sean, surely you can do better than that?  If you're just kicking an ant hill, I guess the rest of us can continue the discussion or not as we want.  Otherwise, I'm rather disappointed in your response which amounts to an 'appeal to authority' and a simply fiat declaration that Christianity and TKD don't mix.

By the way, karate is generally taught as a "do".  The very idea of awakening oneself spiritually is expressed in the various dojo kun, and Zen meditation is a regular part of training.  You read some of the writings of guys like Funakoshi or Oyama if you disagree that Zen Buddhism runs through the fabric of modern karate-do.


----------



## jthomas1600 (May 14, 2010)

Wow, I just joined this group and find this particular thread to be most interesting. I took Karate at a "Christian" martial arts outfit years ago and did not care for it at all. Now my children and I are all involved in TKD. I find the tenants of TKD actually to reinforce most of the things that as a Christian father I want my kids to learn. When I look at the student creed and the 10 aims of TKD at our school I see the promoting attributes that are consistant with Christian character. Our instructor is constantly telling the kids to respect their parents, be kind to each other, always be honest, etc. etc. I don't see it as a stretch at all to take TKD and turn it into a Christian activity. 

The logistics and liability of teaching any martial art at a church may be another story.


----------



## granfire (May 14, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Sean, surely you can do better than that?  If you're just kicking an ant hill, I guess the rest of us can continue the discussion or not as we want.  Otherwise, I'm rather disappointed in your response which amounts to an 'appeal to authority' and a simply fiat declaration that Christianity and TKD don't mix.
> 
> By the way, karate is generally taught as a "do".  The very idea of awakening oneself spiritually is expressed in the various dojo kun, and Zen meditation is a regular part of training.  You read some of the writings of guys like Funakoshi or Oyama if you disagree that Zen Buddhism runs through the fabric of modern karate-do.




Sheesh, Hon, where do you live?!

I am kidding, y'all, just kidding.

I am living in the dark recesses of the Bible Belt. 
Not much enlightenment going on ins some churches, not even gonna bother calling them Christian. I have heard from a lot of people who would not do stuff like TKD, their preacher told them not to, because you do some rituals and stuff. Could have knocked me over with a feather: My instructors are light years away from any non traditional US religious thinking as it gets. The tenets of Honor, integrity, self control etc, are basic rules of inter human relationships, unlike most of the 10 commandments. We do not meditate, the few bastardized yoga moves are not gonna lend you in purgatory....

but then again, that 'Christian' thinking I want nothing to do with, not with a 10 foot pole. 
I have honestly no idea, if the prospect of physical meekness is appealing (then, to compensate resort to back stabbing) or if it's just jealousy on part of select preachers who can't handle their flock being exposed to ideas outside their ramblings....

I seriously don't mean to offend anybody, but I am jaded by what is allowed to run as church in these parts, not to mention disgusted by the vultures that descended onto my Father-in-law while he is laying in the hospital after 3 abdominal surgeries. Yes he is cared to death, but goodness gracious, pestering a man under the influence of narcotics and sleep deprived...that is just sick!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Of course.  Free training area and the church is a logical gathering place for a church ministry.



While I agree, there are those who choose to use non religious activities as vehicles for spreading the gospel, which by its very nature means conducting the activities away from the church building.  There was a thread not to long ago where a student bemoaned the fact that his dojo had a Christian element and the patch had a Christian theme, which caused him to debate about whether or not to wear it.

The issue there was that the dojo had started out without an overt religious element, but later the dojo cho decided to make that a prominent element in the school, though it was unclear how much was actually a part of the class time.

If you are on church property, quite frankly, it is a non issue.  You're at church.  If someone has a problem with Christianity being a part of a church activity, then they are just being unreasonable and probably shouldn't be there anyway.



dancingalone said:


> I am sure there will be some mental/spiritual dimensions to the training.  I discovered last night that the General Choi forms will be used.  Just as a loose example off the top of my head, it's not too hard to relate the first hyung, Chon-Ji, to a Scripture based lesson.  Chon-Ji means "Heaven and Earth".  I've been told that the pattern can symbolize Um and Yang and the dualism of the movements such as block and counter.  The translation seems obvious - one could possibly tell a homily about hardness and softness and turning the other cheek to an offense.  And that's just one interpretation.


I suppose you could do that.  

Personally, I'd stick with opening and closing with a prayer and teaching a good, solid class. When people sign up for a karate class, they generally do so because they want to be able to defend themselves, so that is where the focus should be.   Leave the preaching to the priest/preacher/minister.  

From what I am gathering, he is asking you for help because you have teaching experience and experience as a studio operator. 

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (May 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Personally, I'd stick with opening and closing with a prayer and teaching a good, solid class. When people sign up for a karate class, they generally do so because they want to be able to defend themselves, so that is where the focus should be.   Leave the preaching to the priest/preacher/minister.



I agree.  The person in question is a deacon however (along with being a university lecturer in philosophy and classics) and it's definitely my impression that he has an interest in teaching the spiritual dimension along with the physical.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I am gathering, he is asking you for help because you have teaching experience and experience as a studio operator.



Indeed.  I posted the example I did for illustrative purposes, not necessarily because I champion such an integration.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I agree.  The person in question is a deacon however (along with being a university lecturer in philosophy and classics) and it's definitely my impression that he has an interest in teaching the spiritual dimension along with the physical.


So here is the big question: He is obviously qualified to teach the spiritual.  What are his qualifications for teaching taekwondo?

Who will students be ranked with?  He's teaching Chang hon forms, so I assume not the Kukkiwon.  Is he issuing school certs or is he associated with Christian martial arts organization?



dancingalone said:


> Indeed.  I posted the example I did for illustrative purposes, not necessarily because I champion such an integration.


I'm okay with such integration, but I feel that the ability to teach the system needs to come first.  I generally find that when martial arts are used in a ministerial way, the teaching of the system is secondary to the religious integration.

Obviously, there are people that want such a product.  If not, the idea would have fallen into disuse due to no takers.  But I am of the opinion that a martial art is *martial* first.  The religious attachment determines the context in which you use the art and is helpful for Christians to reconcile what they are practicing with scripture.  

But if what they are practicing is not effectively taught or has little to no martial or self defense value, then there is no point in learning it and the teacher would be better off teaching the Christian theology and philosophy that he is qualified to teach.

Daniel


----------



## granfire (May 14, 2010)

If the MA teachings fail, you can always claim the 'spiritual' teachings and proclaim you turned the other cheek (or 3)\


I am taking my sarcastic self back to the house now....


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2010)

granfire said:


> If the MA teachings fail, you can always claim the 'spiritual' teachings and proclaim you turned the other cheek (or 3)


Turning the other cheek seems simple on the surface, but there are other techniques hidden in the kata.  Turning the cheek is the lead in for turning the posterior cheeks, which is done when lowering the center of gravity and unbalancing an opponent to facilitate throwing them.  From there, various locks and joint manipulations can be applied (see binding and loosing).  

Didn't you learn your Biblical bunkai?

Daniel


----------



## StudentCarl (May 14, 2010)

Lotta power in them cheeks! Whoever taught 'turn the other cheek' as peaceful didn't know spin hook or spin back kick. Beware the heel of judgment!


----------



## dancingalone (May 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So here is the big question: He is obviously qualified to teach the spiritual.  What are his qualifications for teaching taekwondo?
> 
> Who will students be ranked with?  He's teaching Chang hon forms, so I assume not the Kukkiwon.  Is he issuing school certs or is he associated with Christian martial arts organization?



He is a BB.  Not sure with whom, but I doubt it really matters in this context.  As for certificates, honestly I don't think that matters either.  He could print them up on his computer and I'd think they'd be just as good for the purposes intended. 



> I'm okay with such integration, but I feel that the ability to teach the system needs to come first.  I generally find that when martial arts are used in a ministerial way, the teaching of the system is secondary to the religious integration.
> 
> Obviously, there are people that want such a product.  If not, the idea would have fallen into disuse due to no takers.  But I am of the opinion that a martial art is *martial* first.  The religious attachment determines the context in which you use the art and is helpful for Christians to reconcile what they are practicing with scripture.
> 
> ...



The physical practice must come first else I will not long be a part of it.


----------



## granfire (May 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Turning the other cheek seems simple on the surface, but there are other techniques hidden in the kata.  Turning the cheek is the lead in for turning the posterior cheeks, which is done when lowering the center of gravity and unbalancing an opponent to facilitate throwing them.  From there, various locks and joint manipulations can be applied (see binding and loosing).
> 
> Didn't you learn your Biblical bunkai?
> 
> Daniel





StudentCarl said:


> Lotta power in them cheeks! Whoever taught 'turn the other cheek' as peaceful didn't know spin hook or spin back kick. Beware the heel of judgment!




Ah, yes, the turning of a cheek, mark of a true MArtist, turn a defensive move into something more! 

^_^


(LMAO)


----------



## ArmorOfGod (May 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> He is a BB. Not sure with whom, but I doubt it really matters in this context. As for certificates, honestly I don't think that matters either. He could print them up on his computer and I'd think they'd be just as good for the purposes intended.


 
I completely agree with this and am glad that you see it that way too.

AoG


----------



## ArmorOfGod (May 16, 2010)

I run a very successfull martial arts program out of my church and have a decent reputation.
I say go for it, but remind yourself of James 3:1 = ....and those who teach will be judged by God with greater strictness.

That means to do it right.  Have a good time, tune out anyone who wants to criticize what you are doing, and make sure you are doing a good job, both in your in-class worship and in teaching your ma system.

Good luck!

AoG


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> He is a BB. * Not sure with whom, but I doubt it really matters in this context.  As for certificates, honestly I don't think that matters either.*  He could print them up on his computer and I'd think they'd be just as good for the purposes intended.


I'm going to disagree with you here.  Lineage in traditional arts is still considered important, and since there is no shortage of large TKD organizations, none of which are particularly hands on and which promote nothing that is counter to Christianity, there is no reason to deviate.  

If he is teaching Chang Hon forms, he learned them from somewhere.  From whom?

And if he is a BB, what dan grade is he?  Taekwondo is popular enough that these questions could easily all come up. 

I'm not saying that he needs to be affiliated; I can think of lots of reasons to be independent, and really see little benefit to most of the TKD orgs anyway.  But he does need to be able to demonstrate that he was ranked with someone and that he trained into the dan grades before he decided to teach.  If he is only a first dan, how can he justify ranking anyone past bodan?  I realize that that assumes that his program will be successful enough to have to be concerned with that, as with it just starting out, dan promotions are several years away, but these are questions that he will potentially be asked.  

He needs to make sure that his bases are covered so that details of rank and organization do not undermine his efforts.  



ArmorOfGod said:


> I run a very successfull martial arts program out of my church and have a decent reputation.
> I say go for it, but remind yourself of James 3:1 = ....and those who teach will be judged by God with greater strictness.
> 
> That means to do it right.  Have a good time, tune out anyone who wants to criticize what you are doing, and make sure you are doing a good job, both in your in-class worship and in teaching your ma system.


And the above post is why he needs to sweat the details, even the administrative ones.  These are the kinds of details that can determine if he is perceived as a fine teacher who loves the Lord and is bringing a wonderful activity to the church or if he is perceived as a guy who isn't much of a teacher or practitioner who is teaching out of the church because he couldn't cut it in a real school.

In my opinion, belts earned in a church program generally are looked at with less favor by other BBs than those earned in a regular school.  If he does it with no excuses, sweats the details, and teaches a strong program, those students will be able to answer those critics with confidence.  If the students demonstrate a level of skill that is as good or better than that of other schools in the area, critics will take notice.  Who knows?  They might even show up at the church for class.



dancingalone said:


> The physical practice must come first else I will not long be a part of it.


I figured that that was a given.

Daniel


----------



## IcemanSK (May 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm going to disagree with you here.  Lineage in traditional arts is still considered important, and since there is no shortage of large TKD organizations, none of which are particularly hands on and which promote nothing that is counter to Christianity, there is no reason to deviate.
> 
> If he is teaching Chang Hon forms, he learned them from somewhere.  From whom?
> 
> ...



I agree with Daniel here. From the MA aspect, there's no reason to ignore lineage, instructor's MA history, & other things that go into a quality program. While it doesn't need to be affiliated, anything that one should expect from any other TMA school should be a part of a school run as part of a Christian program.


----------



## dancingalone (May 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm going to disagree with you here.  Lineage in traditional arts is still considered important, and since there is no shortage of large TKD organizations, none of which are particularly hands on and which promote nothing that is counter to Christianity, there is no reason to deviate.



There's really no reason to adhere to them either.  I could write over a check to any one of those endless TKD orgs that advertise in Black Belt or TKD Times magazine right now and get ranked at least around 4th dan, considering I hold legitimate certificates in goju-ryu (4th), tae kwon do (2nd), and aikido (2nd).

Certifications are only useful if you wish to participate in the area the organizations offering them are strong in.  The best reason I can think of to join a particular org is to be KKW to compete in tournments.  In this case, there's really no need for any at all since I bet there's no plans to compete in WTF-style tournaments.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> If he is teaching Chang Hon forms, he learned them from somewhere.  From whom?
> 
> And if he is a BB, what dan grade is he?  Taekwondo is popular enough that these questions could easily all come up.
> 
> ...



I don't know (yet).  Let's assume he's a first dan with no one particularly special as his instructor.  Does it change anything?  I don't think so.

Ranking only has the depth of meaning that you choose to attribute to it.  Not everyone is interested in world-building and setting up their own 10th dan ranking system.  This is a church ministry after all, meant for the members of the church, not for anyone else.  So the idea of being certified by some organization seems rather unnecessary and even ridiculous on some levels, considering how absolutely minimal the standards and requirements some of those orgs have.  

This is a new project that is years away from promoting anyone to black belt rank.  We've not even announced the ministry formally yet.  Baby steps first.  I imagine if the program is successful enough over time to be in the position of promoting someone to chodan, there will be steps taken to make sure sufficient paper is around to make such a promotion above the board.  I do have a 2nd dan in TKD from years ago, so I can dust off my certificate and lend a meager amount of credence.  Ironically, I've been around the block to know how irrelevant that stuff is, particularly in TKD.  Master rankings are dime a dozen and one of the local schools has more kiddie BBs in their 8-12 class than I have fingers.  I'm really not worried about this at all.



> And the above post is why he needs to sweat the details, even the administrative ones.  These are the kinds of details that can determine if he is perceived as a fine teacher who loves the Lord and is bringing a wonderful activity to the church or if he is perceived as a guy who isn't much of a teacher or practitioner who is teaching out of the church because he couldn't cut it in a real school.
> 
> In my opinion, belts earned in a church program generally are looked at with less favor by other BBs than those earned in a regular school.  If he does it with no excuses, sweats the details, and teaches a strong program, those students will be able to answer those critics with confidence.  If the students demonstrate a level of skill that is as good or better than that of other schools in the area, critics will take notice.  Who knows?  They might even show up at the church for class.



Honestly, I think this is an irrelevant concern to have about a church ministry program that likely has no interest in being compared to any other alternative out there.  It will be available only to members of the church and what you see is what you get.  Either people will like it and join or they won't.  This isn't meant to compete with other, possibly commercial, studios.  If I help with the program, it'll be the most rigorous class I can help teach under the circumstances and I'm quite confident it'll measure well with anything we have locally, but I wouldn't worry about any potential comparisons.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 17, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> *There's really no reason to adhere to them either.*  I could write over a check to any one of those endless TKD orgs that advertise in Black Belt or TKD Times magazine right now and get ranked at least around 4th dan, considering I hold legitimate certificates in goju-ryu (4th), tae kwon do (2nd), and aikido (2nd).


In principle, no, there is no reason to adhere to them.  But people like to know who trained whom and it is a potential landmine.  Keep in mind that regular people don't know a thing about the martial arts, so a credential is very meaningful to *them*.  And if they find out that he has no credentials, that may be a problem.  The last thing he needs is for a churchgoer who happens to be highly ranked in an existing org showing up to check him out, only to fine that he has no credential whatsoever, then telling other churchgoers that they'd be better off in a "real school."  That would undermine him very quickly.



dancingalone said:


> Certifications are only useful if you wish to participate in the area the organizations offering them are strong in.  The best reason I can think of to join a particular org is to be KKW to compete in tournments.  In this case, there's really no need for any at all since I bet there's no plans to compete in WTF-style tournaments.


Once again, I did not say that he needs to affiliate.  He needs to be prepared to be asked who made him a black belt.  It is not the majority of his students that he needs to be concerned with.  It is the potential troublemakers.  And just because it is church does not mean that troublemakers aren't present.  In some cases, the percentage is higher: church is less likely to tell them to take a hike, so they gravitate there.



dancingalone said:


> I don't know (yet).  Let's assume he's a first dan with no one particularly special as his instructor.  Does it change anything?  I don't think so.


Yes, it does, but not because of ranking.  Unless he's one of those guys who started training a long time ago, got his first dan more than five or six years ago, and just never tested any further but continued to train and improve, then he probably isn't ready to be running his own show.  Which is probably the reason that he asked you to help.



dancingalone said:


> Ranking only has the depth of meaning that you choose to attribute to it.  Not everyone is interested in world-building and setting up their own 10th dan ranking system.  This is a church ministry after all, meant for the members of the church, not for anyone else.  So the idea of being certified by some organization seems rather unnecessary and even ridiculous on some levels, considering how absolutely minimal the standards and requirements some of those orgs have.


I reiterate: he doesn't have to affiliate the program with any of the big (or small) orgs.  Nothing wrong with being independent.  But he should have demonstrable lineage and be able to say who promoted *him* to whatever dan grade he holds.  Remember: people like credentials.  




dancingalone said:


> This is a new project that is years away from promoting anyone to black belt rank.  We've not even announced the ministry formally yet.  Baby steps first.  I imagine if the program is successful enough over time to be in the position of promoting someone to chodan, there will be steps taken to make sure sufficient paper is around to make such a promotion above the board.  I do have a 2nd dan in TKD from years ago, so I can dust off my certificate and lend a meager amount of credence.  Ironically, I've been around the block to know how irrelevant that stuff is, particularly in TKD.  Master rankings are dime a dozen and one of the local schools has more kiddie BBs in their 8-12 class than I have fingers.  I'm really not worried about this at all.


If they're a dime a dozen then why train with a guy who doesn't have one?  I realize that this is a church ministry program, but he is teaching a physical skill that is unrelated to ministry and has an entirely different set of qualifications.



dancingalone said:


> Honestly, I think this is an irrelevant concern to have about a church ministry program that likely has no interest in being compared to any other alternative out there.  It will be available only to members of the church and what you see is what you get.  Either people will like it and join or they won't.  This isn't meant to compete with other, possibly commercial, studios.  If I help with the program, it'll be the most rigorous class I can help teach under the circumstances and I'm quite confident it'll measure well with anything we have locally, but I wouldn't worry about any potential comparisons.


I wasn't thinking of comparison shopping.  I am thinking of how he is perceived by the people within the church, and like it or not, people within the church have contact with people outside of the church.  

Be able to present the best program possible.  

If he's a first dan, then he needs to present the best program possible as a first dan, though if he's been a first dan for less than a year (second dan in most TKD schools is only a year out), then he's barely been training long enough to have any depth in the art.

But if he's is continuing to train under another master, he can appeal to his lineage.  Then he looks less like a guy without the relevant experience going it alone and more like a proactive student who wants to share what he's learning with the folks at church, but who is still continuing to better himself.

With only a first dan or over fourth dan, lineage and organization are actually more important if you are instructing than they are if you are third through fourth.  Even out of a two year BB school, a third dan has at least six year worth of training and has probably been teaching on some level for at least a year or two under the supervision of another master.  Also, up to fourth dan can generally be tested for inside the dojo.  

A fifth dan or higher is usually not promoted to fifth dan or higher within the dojo, so he or she will be scrutinized more closely.  A first dan teacher doesn't have the relevant experience and needs to be  able to appeal to his org or lineage in the event that his students (or his students' parents) want some kind of organizational safety net (not that orgs really provide one, but people seem to have some idea that it does).

If he has a huge rack of competition trophies, he can mitigate the rank issue: Americans place a fantastical level of importance on competition wins, transferring the prestige of those wins to cover other areas that competition success is not necessarily related to.

Likewise, if his physical skills are just phenomenal, he can mitigate the issue as well.  The fact that he has you involved will help out in addition.

My point in my lengthy posts is not to pick at your friend or throw a wet blanket on his ministry idea.  I actually think that, the way that you have described it, it is a good idea.

My point is that the "Christian" part is not really the issue.  The major issue is that first dan students generally are not ready to run their own program out and away from the schools in which they have trained through the colored belts and that he probably is not prepared to deal with some of the pitfalls that go with running your own program.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 17, 2010)

IcemanSK said:


> I agree with Daniel here. From the MA aspect, there's no reason to ignore lineage, instructor's MA history, & other things that go into a quality program. While it doesn't need to be affiliated, anything that one should expect from any other TMA school should be a part of a school run as part of a Christian program.


That is *exactly* what I am getting at.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (May 17, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In principle, no, there is no reason to adhere to them.  But people like to know who trained whom and it is a potential landmine.  Keep in mind that regular people don't know a thing about the martial arts, so a credential is very meaningful to *them*.  And if they find out that he has no credentials, that may be a problem.  The last thing he needs is for a churchgoer who happens to be highly ranked in an existing org showing up to check him out, only to fine that he has no credential whatsoever, then telling other churchgoers that they'd be better off in a "real school."  That would undermine him very quickly.



Actually, I believe laymen to the martial arts know nothing about certifications or lineage or any of the other trappings we cognoscenti choose to value (overvalue?).  Sure it sounds good to say one is 'certified', but it's as relevant as your mechanic advertising that he is ASCE certified.  The consumer really doesn't know or care as long as his car is fixed to his satisfaction.    




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Once again, I did not say that he needs to affiliate.  He needs to be prepared to be asked who made him a black belt.  It is not the majority of his students that he needs to be concerned with.  It is the potential troublemakers.  And just because it is church does not mean that troublemakers aren't present.  In some cases, the percentage is higher: church is less likely to tell them to take a hike, so they gravitate there.



Well, of course anyone should be able to say who trained him.  That's common sense.  The rest of the stuff you mentioned are only trappings however, and what I've been trying to say is that they're really only things martial arts people find important because they want to attribute more to it out of ego.  Things like rank or certification or even holding excessive pride in 'who was your teacher'.  I've trained under some respected people in my various arts, but none of my students have ever asked me who I learned from.  And they know my teachers are respected only because I tell them they are.   



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, it does, but not because of ranking.  Unless he's one of those guys who started training a long time ago, got his first dan more than five or six years ago, and just never tested any further but continued to train and improve, then he probably isn't ready to be running his own show.  Which is probably the reason that he asked you to help.



He's rather interested in my spin on TKD, having visited my friend's TKD school on a couple of nights in which I taught.  I teach karate bunkai and kobudo there, having adapted some shorin-ryu applications to the Choi forms.  I gather his own TKD training was somewhat different.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I reiterate: he doesn't have to affiliate the program with any of the big (or small) orgs.  Nothing wrong with being independent.  But he should have demonstrable lineage and be able to say who promoted *him* to whatever dan grade he holds.  Remember: people like credentials.



Addressed above.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> If they're a dime a dozen then why train with a guy who doesn't have one?  I realize that this is a church ministry program, but he is teaching a physical skill that is unrelated to ministry and has an entirely different set of qualifications.



Because they are meaningless in the overall scheme of things?  We both realize there are dozens of TKD orgs out there.  Some more credible than others, but I think it's well-known that even some of the bigger ones (I won't mention names to avoid de-railing the thread) are as difficult to acquire rank as as buying Cracker Jacks and getting the prize out of the box.

The person in question will have the physical skill to teach on his own merits and not because he belongs to some organization someone else decided to start to make some money or to grow some MA empire.

In any case, I made a quick email just to check things out and it appears he's an old 3nd dan in a defunct org (hmm, seems like some of these orgs are Cracker Jacks indeed), so presumably he had some skill at least at one point.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I wasn't thinking of comparison shopping.  I am thinking of how he is perceived by the people within the church, and like it or not, people within the church have contact with people outside of the church.
> 
> Be able to present the best program possible.
> 
> ...



I guess some of these concerns have been allayed by the discovery of his rank, but I still respectfully submit that he could be a mere chodan and still be able to function as well.  I wouldn't know what rank my karate sensei was except that I saw his teaching license/certificate when I first visited his home.  He's never brought it up in class.  Similarly, I never tell my students what my rank is and my obi does not have any stripes to indicate my dan.  The proof is in my physical skill and my teaching excellence, and the latter is more important than the first, realizing of course that it's much easier to teach well if you can also perform and demonstrate well.  




Daniel Sullivan said:


> My point in my lengthy posts is not to pick at your friend or throw a wet blanket on his ministry idea.  I actually think that, the way that you have described it, it is a good idea.



No worries.  I frequently use this board as a sounding out board and you're just adding to the discussion.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> My point is that the "Christian" part is not really the issue.  The major issue is that first dan students generally are not ready to run their own program out and away from the schools in which they have trained through the colored belts and that he probably is not prepared to deal with some of the pitfalls that go with running your own program.



Skill and readiness to teach are their own issues, outside of rank, and certainly apart from the Christian connotations.  I am a mere 2nd dan in tae kwon do, but I believe I am a better martial artist than many who hold a higher rank in TKD.  Likewise, I am sure there are better teachers than me who might not be able to perform to my current physical standard.


----------



## Balrog (May 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> One of the other parishioners in my church is starting a physical fitness ministry using taekwondo as the main activity.  He knows I am a MA instructor and has asked me for my help as he has no prior experience running a program.
> 
> Thoughts?  I am generally opposed to mixing martial arts and religion, but I do believe the members of my church could benefit from another outlet to get physical exercise with perhaps some self-defense instruction.  I would also be pained to decline to help a fellow church member in a sincere attempt to improve the lives of others.


Teach it but keep religion out of it.  If the other guy isn't willing to do so, don't get involved.

My $0.02 worth....


----------



## Steven Craig (May 24, 2010)

TKD comes from one of the largest Christian countries in the world. The core aims of TKD (modesty, perserverance, self-control and indomitable spirit) do not conflict with Christian Values and could easily be soundly linked with Biblical teaching.


----------



## granfire (May 24, 2010)

Steven Craig said:


> _TKD comes from one of the largest Christian countries in the world._


what? 


> The core aims of TKD (modesty, perserverance, self-control and indomitable spirit) do not conflict with Christian Values and could easily be soundly linked with Biblical teaching.


indeed.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 24, 2010)

granfire said:


> what?


In other words, Christians make up a very high percentage of the population in Korea.  I'm not sure if I would phrase it as _one of the largest Christian countries in the world_, however. 

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Korea#Religion_in_South_Korea:


			
				[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Korea#Religion_in_South_Korea:" said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Korea#Religion_in_South_Korea[/url]]Just more than 40 percent of South Koreans profess religious  affiliation. That affiliation is spread among a great variety of  traditions, including Buddhism (34 percent), Christianity  (30 percent), Confucianism (0.2 percent), and shamanism.  These numbers should be treated with some caution, however, as (with  the exception of Christianity) there are few if any meaningful  distinctions between believers and nonbelievers in Buddhism and  Confucianism, which comprise more of a set of ethical values than a  religion. The cultural impact of these movements is far more widespread  than the number of formal adherents suggests. A variety of &#8220;new  religions&#8221; have emerged since the mid-nineteenth century, including Cheondogyo. Very small Muslim and Bahá'í minorities also exist.



So, according to this, about 40% of Koreans in SK profess religious affiliation, and of that percentage, Christianity is one of two 
majorities.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (May 24, 2010)

The local TKD sixth dan in my town is also a Korean Methodist Church pastor.  You might be surprised at how many Koreans in Korea are Methodists or Baptists due to the yeoman missionary work done by Christians there.


----------



## granfire (May 24, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> The local TKD sixth dan in my town is also a Korean Methodist Church pastor.  *You might be surprised* at how many Koreans in Korea are Methodists or Baptists due to the yeoman missionary work done by Christians there.



I am surprised by a lot of things that are just beyond the edge of my horizon, but that's neither here nor there. ^_^

Just the 'one of the largest Christian countries' threw me for a loop...I would be guestimating thee are more Christians in Mexico City alone  than people in Korea...(no need to comment, I am being a smart alec again)


----------



## tellner (May 25, 2010)

Let's take a look at the ideal situation.

Think about a Tae Kwon Do school. The school doesn't require anyone to participate in prayers, but they are invited to, and students are encouraged to take part in worship services at the Church where the instructor preaches. The whole point of the school is to further the students' relationship with God. They don't hard-sell religion, but they're happy to share their Faith with students who are interested. The motto is something hokey like Prayer and Punching to Serve God. There are a few uplifting Scriptural quotes on the wall.

Maybe once in a while there's a special event for the kiddies - overnight pizza, prayer and martial arts practice with respected Church leaders. Sometimes the events are patriotic. Former students on active military duty come in and encourage the children to be patriotic, join the Army and be good soldiers for the Lord.

Sounds good to you? Sounds good to me.


----------



## tellner (May 25, 2010)

Darn that short term memory. I forgot to mention the name of the Church.

The chief instructor preaches at the Bilal ibn Ribah Mosque. 

Silly me.


----------



## Mark Lynn (May 30, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Thank you, gentlemen.  To be clear, I am very sure there will be some type of mixing of Christian concepts and values directly into the physical practice of TKD somehow.  The person who wants to start this is a lecturer in philosophy and the classics at a local private university, so he has the background to integrate the two worlds quite readily.



Just because he is a lecturer in philosophy and the classics doesn't mean he has the background to integrate the two worlds, how solid is he on the bible that he is planing to integrate into a martial arts class?



dancingalone said:


> Why would you change the names or add different symbolism?  If you are going to go that far just scrap/change the whole form and create a new one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dancingalone (May 30, 2010)

The Boar Man said:


> Just because he is a lecturer in philosophy and the classics doesn't mean he has the background to integrate the two worlds, how solid is he on the bible that he is planing to integrate into a martial arts class?



The Bible is one of the world's major books.  I can't recall a single college course catalog I've perused that didn't at least offer a class with some discussion of the Bible and what it has meant throughout Western civilization.  Christianity has shaped the thoughts of major philosophers like Kant, Descartes, etc.  No offense, Boar Man, but I can't fathom a college lecturer in philosophy and the classics who wouldn't be very intimate with the ideas within the Bible and how they pertain to fields of thought like metaphysics or ethics.

Additionally, he's a Catholic deacon, which carries a considerable onus in doctrinal learning, since it is somewhat of a pastoral position.



> Why would you change the names or add different symbolism?  If you are going to go that far just scrap/change the whole form and create a new one.



They're just movements ultimately.  Heck, the Chang Hon forms are an obvious reshuffle of the Pinan kata from karate.  You might as well ask why did General Choi rely so much on older forms when creating his nationalistic Korean pattern set?



> I think alternating the forms to name them Christian is a bad thing, because it will lead to confusion in the long run.  Say the program takes off, it becomes something like UPWARD Basketball or UPWARD Soccer (a Christian based sports ministry to young kids), and some students go to a local open tournament to compete and they announce "Judges my name is ...... my style is Christian TKD and the  name of my form is JESUS SAVES."   Then the student starts Chungi.  As a judge not knowing what UPWARD TKD is then I would be totally confused, and others might be totally offended and the kid who is trying to do their best gets dinged on their score.



Well, that's an odd concern in my opinion and probably unlikely to occur to begin with.


----------



## Mark Lynn (May 30, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> One of the other parishioners in my church is starting a physical fitness ministry using taekwondo as the main activity.  He knows I am a MA instructor and has asked me for my help as he has no prior experience running a program.
> 
> Thoughts?  I am generally opposed to mixing martial arts and religion, but I do believe the members of my church could benefit from another outlet to get physical exercise with perhaps some self-defense instruction.  I would also be pained to decline to help a fellow church member in a sincere attempt to improve the lives of others.



dancingalone

First off I apologize with my previous post I hit send before I proofed it.  I realize I come into this discussion late but for what it is worth.  After reading the whole thread I have the following suggestions for you.

1) Get with the other instructor, work out some with him and get to know one another first, to see if your ideas about the ministry gel together.  I mean work out philosophy, the mechanics behind techniques, self defense, importance of self improvement vs. what works in self defense etc. etc. 

2) Both of you get on your knees and pray earnestly about the ministry and then get back together and discuss it more.  Now is it about promoting a MA (whatever that MA might be) or is it about promoting God based on a Christian belief system through a particular MA?  Which has priority?

3) Once you have established between the two of you what the goal is, then you can establish the mechanics behind achieving the goal.

4) Unless you really do care about the end result I wouldn't get to involved because that could be a disruptive force in the program.  Which is why I believe that you really need to do 1-3 first.  Then if you do want to get involved then throw yourself into it and take part ownership of what you can do to make it succeed.

5) Think about scrapping the whole MA thing as we currently know it and replace it with what is important to the people that you are trying to reach.
 a)  For instance if it is improving one's life style then you could teach fitness stuff like the areobic kickboxing program that one pastor mentioned (I think) along with the self improvement of the forms and basic training but stop there.

b) If it is to develop a martial artist then you can teach the forms, basics, bunkai, and lead into self defense etc.etc.

c) If it is to teach self defense then you can do away with the forms and train more of the applications of techniques found in them, but move away from the whole self improvement model of endless form and basic training.

d) If it is some sort of ministry, you could have the deacon develop a bible study that is reinforced with the martial training, but making the martial training of advancement by belts a thing of the past.  Just have the people train for the sake of training and have the bible study coincide with why you train.
      For instance you could have a bible study that is home based that takes a while to do say on The Basics of the Christian Faith.  Then you can use the example of how important living out those basics are in life just like learning the basics of your MA are the base of which your art stands on.  So the bible study acts as a way to help the student become more rooted in their faith, as well as drawing a visual connection to importance of proper technique in  your art.
      You could set up a small study on say different Basics of the Faith and take one subject, one point, and really get into that one point.  At the same time you could concentrate on one technique and build on that as a central theme of the class(es).  As an example of the depth of the certain point you might teach how say a motion called a block, could be a strike, could be a lock, or a throw.  Again you are showing a physical truth to a biblical concept.

      Now normally you might not show these things to someone who isn't a black belt because they have to learn all sorts of kicks they will never use in later life.  They have to learn all sorts of stuff that drags the learning process out, when you could really cut it down and teach high quality martial arts and concepts to the students while at the same time and really (probably) more importantly strengthening their spiritual life in the process.

     I'm also not suggesting that we bone breaking techniques to teach healing in the church either 

      This is a far more helpful and radical idea than say just changing names of techniques and staying with the current model of teaching MAs.  You are putting the student's needs ahead of any system or hybrid MA.  But this would take the most work and preparation by far.

I don't have a problem with teaching MAs from a Christian view point, I also don't have a problem with teaching or studying a MA that is steeped into religion as long as I know that is what I'm getting into up front. 

Mark


----------



## Haakon (May 30, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In other words, Christians make up a very high percentage of the population in Korea.  I'm not sure if I would phrase it as _one of the largest Christian countries in the world_, however.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So that would make about 12% of the population Christian, 30% of the 40%, that doesn't seem like a very high percentage to me. In numbers that would be about 5.8 million Christian Koreans. That probably makes them one of the largest Christian countries in Asia, but I don't think the world.

This map was interesting, I'm actually surprised that Europe in general shows such a relatively low percentage. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Christianity_percentage_by_country.png


----------



## dancingalone (May 30, 2010)

Haakon said:


> This map was interesting, I'm actually surprised that Europe in general shows such a relatively low percentage. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Christianity_percentage_by_country.png



Hmm, just as guess but I would think the primary classification in many European countries would be "atheist" or "agnostic".


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 31, 2010)

Haakon said:


> So that would make about 12% of the population Christian, 30% of the 40%, that doesn't seem like a very high percentage to me. In numbers that would be about 5.8 million Christian Koreans. That probably makes them one of the largest Christian countries in Asia, but I don't think the world.
> 
> This map was interesting, I'm actually surprised that Europe in general shows such a relatively low percentage. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Christianity_percentage_by_country.png


I suppose that high is a relative term.  I also suppose that it would depend upon the breakdown of the non-professing 60% and how they define 'non-professing.'  I could say that I believe in God and perhaps even the Jesus of the Bible, divinity and all, but not attend church and not profess to be a part of any particular religion.  One could also be a declared atheist and also be classified as 'non-professing.'  Then there are deists, who believe in something but are again, not part of a specified religion.  

Of course if the questionnaire is a multiple choice, you won't get those nuances.

So I will amend my post by saying that Christians comprise a very high percentage of the professing population.

Daniel


----------



## Haakon (May 31, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I suppose that high is a relative term.  I also suppose that it would depend upon the breakdown of the non-professing 60% and how they define 'non-professing.'  I could say that I believe in God and perhaps even the Jesus of the Bible, divinity and all, but not attend church and not profess to be a part of any particular religion.  One could also be a declared atheist and also be classified as 'non-professing.'  Then there are deists, who believe in something but are again, not part of a specified religion.
> 
> Of course if the questionnaire is a multiple choice, you won't get those nuances.
> 
> ...



You know the old saying "lies, damn lies and statistics".  That could surely be amended to include polls that skew results.


----------

