# Tang Soo Do vs the street



## Ian wallace

Hi all i love poping into this site and reading all the questions and answers, there are alot of wise people here! ,i dont spend alot of time on the internet becous of my work! but i hope one day to be able to.

one day i went along with some of my students to a kickboxing class one that my friend runs, so they could see a diffrent style, when it came to sparing my students couldn't defend all the punches that the kickboxers threw, and my students got hit alot, and i could see that they felt discouraged, after the class i was asked why Tang Soo Do when sparing we dont hit to the face as kickboxers do along with other styles, the only thing i could say was that if we used our diffrent techniques like chops and finger strikes the outcome would be more harmfull than punches, and could do dammage, but i still felt disheartend and that i need to get them useing hand techniques alot more any advise on this matter!!


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## Andy Moynihan

If you are concerned over different hand techniques causing damage, simply pad the neck/head/body appropriately and have at.

It isn't a popular thing to say in today's liability-ridden martial arts school environment, but it's not enough to respond to a person's *technique* if you aren't responding to his *energy* as well. Anyone can mechanically "throw" a punch to another student without meaning it, but the energy will be completely different on the one night someone DOES mean it.


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## Ian wallace

i agree, but it seemed that it was unnatural for some of my students as in our art we have limits in sparing, i wish to be able to train more on hands and give them the same abilities in their reactions. in europe we are very competitive and some martial arts over here can be quite brutal, the need for hand improvement in my class could give some confidence to some of my students, especially some that where bullied.


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## SamT

All the sparring I've seen in my area with TSD is full on and very hand focused. It's not full contact and impacts are soft, but hand techniques take over. If you're conerned about your students safety, they should already be in full sparring gear, and know how to make their impacts light. Full contact sparring sans-guards can be left to the extremists .


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## Ian wallace

I totally agree!! And respect what your saying, but when studying Tang Soo Do dont you need an essence of reality, I mean I know you cant train fully on all techniques like kwan soo to someones throat, but to give a feeling like someone is really attacking you. all my gup belts attack with softness as to control their technique and not hurt one another, but by the time their a black belt its psychologically drummed into their brain and to get them out of that habit can scar for a long time, it will stay in their reactions for as long as they feel comfortable.
So isnt it better to start from earlier like for example 5th gup? Im no pro but Im just looking for the best way I can provide, I dont want one day for a student to come in battered and bruised (or worse) saying to me what have you been teaching me!!


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## thesandman

Without seeing your class in action it's hard to say where you could improve in order to make them more competent against hand attacks.

I have found that standing drills where they work on hand techniques from very close in, building speed as they get more comfortable, allows them a chance to get used to being comfortable as they're being attacked.  This comfort allows them to remain calm in full-speed sparring and real life situations.

Additionally, as part of their sparring training, distancing should be a primary focus.  In all honesty, two trained fighters should find it very difficult to land hand strikes against each other as that they should rarely allow themselves to be in range of one.  "Best way not get hit, not be there"

Distancing is an aspect of the foundation of all sparring, which is stances.  A weak stance makes for weak movement and balance, which makes for a weak fighter.

One of the ways I teach distancing is through one-step sparring.  I have the defending student look at the attacker and judge where his/her punch should land at the next step by holding the flat of their palm out at the point of impact.  Then the defending AND attacking student close their eyes and the attacker takes his step and punch.  Correctly judged, the attacker should strike the defenders palm.

This skill is about being able to judge many things, including the quality of your opponents stance and the length of his arms and legs.  This must all be done quickly to accurately judge his range, a very useful skill in any sparring match as well as real life situation.

Hope this helps.


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## Yossarian

Im assuming your normal sparring doesnt allow punches to the head. TSD guys usually prefer kicking range and can often neglect punching range, sounds like your students were taken out of thier comfort zone. Easy way to get good at dealing with head punches is to allow them in sparring. When I first started TSD our competition rules only allowed body punches, I found this encouraged us to kick higher but I was rubbish at defending head punches. We have since changed our rules and I have found I had to do a lot of work to get used to defending my head from punches. 

Just drill it with your class lots, have them spar with head punches only then add the kicks in. You could get some head gaurds that cover the face and some heavy gloves and have your students attack each other with haymakers etc it wont take them long to get used to it.


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## mook jong man

Hello i no nothing about tang soo do but i do know about defending strikes to the head from a wing chun stand point. 
You could do the four corner deflection drill, get the students to stand in front of each other just out of punching range.
 One partner will play the attacker he will throw left and right round house punches to the head then left and right uppercuts to the stomach with control in case the partner misses it. 
The defender will block these punches and aim his own punch at the attackers head making sure to pull the punch back.
 Get them to do various patterns such as right hi, left hi, right lo, left lo, or right hi, right lo, left hi , left lo you get the picture. 
When they are comfortable with this the attacker can punch with random 4 corner strikes.
 Later on when their skill and reflex get better they graduate to 6 corner deflection which is where straight punches to the head and stomach are added along with the round punches.
 Again the same deal as before get them to do it in set patterns then later on totally random.
 When they are competent at defending random 6 corner deflection then you ramp it up by getting the attacker to move around and attack with random strikes and random timing and later on both students can wear head gear and use controlled contact.
 I hope these drills help it is what we used in the wing chun school to prepare students for what we called random arms where the student has to defend against any type of hand strike.
 Also the same principle applies for defending kicks use the patterns and then go random.


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## Ian wallace

one step sparing, yer i probbably need to work harder on that with the students, but the other tatical approch about judgeing distance is great, thanks for your help on this problem.


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## Ian wallace

good idear, i suppose, ease it in slowly!! that way they will stay comfortable, thanks!!


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## Ian wallace

another good idear!! thanks


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## Ian wallace

It has been a problem for some martial arts styles,  being worried to use hands whilst sparing, I mean they could use them to the body but was encouraged to not hit to the head, a problem that had a long effect whilst converting to high aswell as low hits/strikes but it seems to me that its an association thing as allot of you martial artists out there already have systems in place for reality striking and defending, as time goes on you can see many martial arts styles change and adapt and I think that, the need for others ideas in the big picture is essential I value and respect your help and am happy that the brotherhood in martial arts still exists.

Tang Soo!!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Ian,
It is good to see you here on martialtalk.com again.

There is an old saying that many have learned. It is;
If you are afraid to get hit, you are going to get hit.

It is that simple. It all starts with ATTITUDE. When your students walk into the sparring ring, regardless of who they are facing off they have to have the attitude that They are the ones who will walk out of that ring on their own power (as in, not being carried out by others as they lay unconscious.

In my school we use hands and feet equally, and everything is a open target, including the groin. We dont train for sport. I couldnt care less about my students winning a trophy. It is about street-wise fighters being prepared for the real deal on the street.

Tang Soo Do, in its earliest form (in Okinawa) had no belt ranks to test for, and no competitions to compete in; just a guy with a sword that intended to cut off your head, and an instructor (your master) that would teach you how to stop that from happening to you.

The guy on the street was NEVER taught how to PULL-A-PUNCH. He was only taught how to break you up and take what was yours and leave you laying face down for dead in the street.

These Kick-Boxers that your student trained with were taught how to make impact, and more importantly, how to deal with impact against them. If you baby your students by never exposing them to impact, they will never develop the ability (mentally) to deliver it. As one of the other contributors to this thread stated, It isnt just a physical or mechanical movement. It is an action, driven by a serious mental and psychological attitude to survive by causing the other guy to fail!!!

*I teach my student things like;* 

*If someones mother has to cry, let it be his!!!*

*It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6*
(12 jurors in a court room vs. 6 Paul-Bearers at your funeral)

*It is all about TRAUMA, for the other guy!!!*

These statements are all designed to establish a clear picture in your mind as too focus and direction in a confrontation. If you understand these principles and present them to your students as a means of establishing a *Survivor-Mentality*, in combination with serious impact training and drills that will teach them how to deal with incoming weapons (_fists, elbows, feet, knees and any other anatomy that can be used for impacting, live the head, shoulders and hips_) then you will be preparing them to successfully deal with these kick-boxers, and any other opponents that they have to deal with either in training or on the street.

Remember; the techniques passed down thru the years in Tang Soo Do survived all of these year because they were battlefield tested and proven long ago in Okinawa against sword wielding samurai. *They had to work or life itself was lost.*

All that you and your students need to succeed are there in your hyung. You just have to dig them out and make them work for you


All the best,


Master Jay S. Penfil

(NEW PHONE NUMBER) 248-444-0343

*PS: Call me when you have a chance. *
*It has been too long since our last conversation.*


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## JoeW

It's all mental.  The most feared thing in a fight is being hit.  I think after a certain belt sparring should become more intense and face shots should be allowed.  If you train hard you will fight hard.  I think sparring should be a large part of training.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Much of what you have stated here is correct, but we always here people talk about training "HARDER". Hard training is important, but it is more important to train "SMARTER".

If you only focus on "Impacting", and impacting harder, you are focusing on brut strength. If your training revolves around strength and you are faced with an opponant who is stronger than you, you will loose.

Focus on developing your technique to be sharper and more refined, along with the correct "ATTITUDE" and you will win against any adversary, regardless of how strong he is in comparison to you.


All the best,


Master Jay S. Penfil


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## JoeW

No matter what anyone says in a real fight you will be hit and you will hit your opponent how you and your adversary deal with these hits will most likely dictate who come out on top.  If you have the ability and mental toughness to take a shot in the jaw it is very discouraging to the person attacking you.  Now don't get me wrong someone who can't fight and has a strong jaw will probably lose out to a highly skilled fighter.

This is why I am a firm believer in face contact in sparring.  Not crazy hard but with headgear and good size gloves you can simulate the impact with out the damage of fist on face.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

JoeW said:


> No matter what anyone says in a real fight you will be hit and you will hit your opponent how you and your adversary deal with these hits will most likely dictate who come out on top. If you have the ability and mental toughness to take a shot in the jaw it is very discouraging to the person attacking you. Now don't get me wrong someone who can't fight and has a strong jaw will probably lose out to a highly skilled fighter.
> 
> This is why I am a firm believer in face contact in sparring. Not crazy hard but with headgear and good size gloves you can simulate the impact with out the damage of fist on face.


 
JoeW,
There is no doubt about it; we ALL have to know how to take a shot because in a real life situation, anything goes, and since we are most likely not going to be the one throwing the first punch, any of us can be caught off guard and fall prey to the knock out.

That said, it has always been my belief that experience (with proper Attitude) rules. I don't like safty equipment because too many see it as a license to make contact and ultimately, injury happens. I like traning bare knuckle. Training bare knuckle teaches you reality with regard to distance, and depth of focus. gloves will NEVER give you this valuable experience. Hitting a person with out gloves makes you stay mentally in focus and keeps you honest.

There are those who say to me things like; accidents happen. That is why we like to use gloves.

To that I say; Accidents DON'T happen. Impact are intentional. If I am responsible for what I do and I respect my partner/opponent, I will control my impacts to the max and no one will get hurt. If the rules are to hurt each other, there will be injuries... It is that simple.

I started training in 1972. The only safty equipment that we has was a mouth guard and a groin cup. That was it. We learned very quickly to be responsible for our actions. The best technique is developed in this fashion.

But, as stated earlier; both participants MUST have respect for each other and for the rules set forth for the training session.


All the best,


Master Jay S. Penfil


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## SamT

Ian wallace said:


> I totally agree!! And respect what your saying, but when studying Tang Soo Do don&#8217;t you need an essence of reality, I mean I know you cant train fully on all techniques like &#8220;kwan soo&#8221; to someone&#8217;s throat, but to give a feeling like someone is really attacking you. all my gup belts attack with softness as to control their technique and not hurt one another, but by the time their a black belt its psychologically drummed into their brain and to get them out of that habit can scar for a long time, it will stay in their reactions for as long as they feel comfortable.
> So isn&#8217;t it better to start from earlier like for example 5th gup? I&#8217;m no pro but I&#8217;m just looking for the best way I can provide, I don&#8217;t want one day for a student to come in battered and bruised (or worse) saying to me &#8220;what have you been teaching me!!&#8221;


Personally I don't have a problem applying what I've learned and going from slow and controlled movements to a rapid self defense manuever. My mind registers that there's a threat, and does its best to counter that threat. I would like to think that many people can do the same for self defense manuevers, while learning how to make an effective and devastating strike against a bag. Whether or not that's true... well, hopefully we'll never have to find out.


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## ProTaekwondo

My master for Taekwondo gave us pads for sparring and no face shots or leg shots at first, then as we got better soon some of the pads came off and face and leg hits were allowed. This way we learned how to use appropriate power at the start and now we control our strikes as to not seriously hurt one another.


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## Montecarlodrag

The main problem is students don't like to get hurt while training.

You as Sa Bom Nim sometimes need to treat students like ballet girls. They want to fight like Bruce Lee but don't want to get punched or kicked. You punch a student and He won't come back again.

A few weeks ago a green belt student quit. He neglected to close his hands while sparring (we told him several times). He got a hand injury. He told us he would come back after a few weeks when his hand was healed ("Doctor's order"), but didn't come back. He later confessed he was afraid of fighting.

I can't count how many times I was thrown by a kick on the ribs or knocked down with a fierce punch. You need to feel an attack to counter it and stand it in a real situation. It's the only way you're going to learn to fight a real fight.

If you want your students to learn to fight anybody in any situation, you need to fight with them. Punch and kick them strongly (but not causing injuries). Knock them out if you must, but teach them life on the street is unmerciful, make them understand nobody will have mercy of them.
You as black belt should know where and how hard to hit your student, to cause him real pain and knock him down without causing damage. He will learn to fight real fights without the side efects (serious injuries, death).

We fight full contact sparring (only black belts), three 2-minute rounds once a week. Broken noses, injured hands and feet, sore ribs and more is what we get after sparring. We only use boxing gloves and groin cup. sometimes only the gloves.
As my former master said: "If there is no blood, it's not sparring"


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## SamT

> I can't count how many times I was thrown by a kick on the ribs or knocked down with a fierce punch. You need to feel an attack to counter it and stand it in a real situation. It's the only way you're going to learn to fight a real fight.



My instructor said the same thing to me during a public self-defense clinic, which was held two days after I started Tang Soo Do. It teaches so much to understand both sides of it. How it feels, how hard it should be, et cetera.

I would be careful with full contact sparring, in today's world of liability, it's almost screaming "SUE ME!" .


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## Montecarlodrag

SamT said:


> I would be careful with full contact sparring, in today's world of liability, it's almost screaming "SUE ME!" .


 
Fortunately, we don't have this liability problem in Mexico. 

The only way a student can sue you as MA instructor is when you cause him serious injuries which need medical attention.

Here, if a student feels is too much for him/her, is free to leave.

Of course, as I said, full contact sparring is only for Black Belts, who are 100% commited to TSD. 
To all the students, training is as usual. Carpeted floor, no kicks to the ribs or hard punches to the face. Air conditioning and so on, to keep them as long as possible.

You push a student too hard and he will quit.

Regards.


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## Errant108

SamT said:


> I would be careful with full contact sparring, in today's world of liability, it's almost screaming "SUE ME!" .



Ever trained in a boxing gym or a Kyokushin school?

No one spars full contact all the time, even those preparing for full contact fights.  Precautions are always taken in training, even if that training is not what is seen in the typical Dangsudo school.  Think about it, if I'm training for a boxing match in three months, am I going to be going at it full contact every time I spar for the next three months? Not a chance.  If I get injured before I fight, then I can't enter my match.

Training for self-defense has the same mindset.  If I get injured in my Dangsudo training and can't fight, how am I ever going to be able to defend myself should I be attacked?

Yes, you need to take knocks.  You need to know how to roll with the punches, literally.  You need to feel the impact to get used to it so you aren't shocked when someone lays one across your jaw.

However, this does not require a strawman supposition that every single sparring match be a full on battle to the death.  No one who trains for FC fights trains that way.


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## Deaf Smith

Ian,

Welcome to the world of contact. Especially contact with less rules.

I was 'raised' in the environment of basicly no contact. Lots of kicking, lots of fancy stuff, but rarely was there any contact but touching or tapping. Then I went to a tournament that was, er, open to all styles.

Fast foward to today and I use the bag alot, when I spar I definatly go for the head, and I use my hands alot. I belive some contact is needed and the head is fair game. In fact, when just light contact is allowed, then the legs are fair game to.

As for your students, the art is the art. It's a 'DO', a way, not a street fight. And that is why I don't mind most classes having so little contact. As long as your students understand that and kind of meet after class to do some light to middle contact sparring to get the feel.

And one more thing. Once they make Dan rank, I urge they to study other arts and how they fight. There are many ways, good ways, and if not familiar with them, they will be shocked when they meet someone who dosn't fight their style.

Deaf


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## Montecarlodrag

Errant108 said:


> No one spars full contact all the time, even those preparing for full contact fights. Precautions are always taken in training, even if that training is not what is seen in the typical Dangsudo school. Think about it, if I'm training for a boxing match in three months, am I going to be going at it full contact every time I spar for the next three months? Not a chance. If I get injured before I fight, then I can't enter my match.
> 
> However, this does not require a strawman supposition that every single sparring match be a full on battle to the death. No one who trains for FC fights trains that way.


 
Of curse, nobody is able to fight full contact every day, it's insane.
We do it once a week, on fridays (to have the weekend to rest) six 2-minute rounds each. Once a week is still a lot. Sometimes when we are tired, we fight light contact only.
Anyway, you should use caution while fighting. Take care of not punching or kicking too hard on certain points, to avoid injuring your mate. 
Even in full contact you have to know where, how and how hard to hit. Is not the same a fierce punch to the cheek than to the nose.

The problem we are facing is our age, indeed we are going to stop fighting full contact soon, because I'm in my 30's, my master is in his 40's and the other BB's are in late 20's. They have no problem but we do.
Every injury takes more and more to heal with age. An injury which used to take a week to heal is taking two or more. Time is unforgiving


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## SamT

Errant108 said:


> Ever trained in a boxing gym or a Kyokushin school?
> 
> No one spars full contact all the time, even those preparing for full contact fights.  Precautions are always taken in training, even if that training is not what is seen in the typical Dangsudo school.  Think about it, if I'm training for a boxing match in three months, am I going to be going at it full contact every time I spar for the next three months? Not a chance.  If I get injured before I fight, then I can't enter my match.
> 
> Training for self-defense has the same mindset.  If I get injured in my Dangsudo training and can't fight, how am I ever going to be able to defend myself should I be attacked?
> 
> Yes, you need to take knocks.  You need to know how to roll with the punches, literally.  You need to feel the impact to get used to it so you aren't shocked when someone lays one across your jaw.
> 
> However, this does not require a strawman supposition that every single sparring match be a full on battle to the death.  No one who trains for FC fights trains that way.



When did I imply that he always sparred full contact? I just said that it'd be best to be careful and not overdo FC, as I had wrongfully assumed that he was in the lawsuit happy USA. His approach is perfect for it, IMO.


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## Ian wallace

first sorry for the late reply its my work that keeps me away from the computer for weeks at a time ,I have studyed for quite a few years on other styles, but i think the problem was that i was not exposing them to full on sparing, thats where i messed up, so i was wondering where it came from that we should restrict sparing to mostly kicks


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Ian,
Much of this started with the introduction of Tae Kwon Do and the rules of sparring for competition that it brought. 

This is not to say that ALL Tae Kwon Do schools subscribe to this kind of training because there are those that continued to spar with full contact and hands to the head over the years, but most have gone the way of not using hands to the head and less than full contact.

With the number of tournaments out there that are open to everyone, but run with the Tae Kwon Do rules, many school, even those of Okinawan and Japanese lineage, as well as Tang Soo Do have gravitated to using these rules in their own schools as well as at the tournaments. 

It is up to each and every school owner/instructor to determine what rules they want in their school, and what kind of contact that they want to expose their students to.

If a school is focused on winning trophies at light or no contact tournaments they will choose these kinds of rules. If they are focused on real world street confrontations they will be more aggressive in their training.

Remember this: It isn't just training harder that keeps you safe, it is about training smarter...


All the best,


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## Kaygee

My Tang Soo Do Sa Bum Nim always has us punching to the head and face. Our kicks have to be there as well. There are always people leaving class with bruises. I just got a black eye on Saturday from sparring one of the black belts.


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## Montecarlodrag

Kaygee said:


> My Tang Soo Do Sa Bum Nim always has us punching to the head and face. Our kicks have to be there as well. There are always people leaving class with bruises. I just got a black eye on Saturday from sparring one of the black belts.


LOL
There are people who don't like being beaten, period. They will leave if anybody hits them.

But we are different. I enjoy the sensation of being barely able to stand next day after a sparring session.
I don't know why, but it feels good :uhyeah:


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## Tez3

Montecarlodrag said:


> LOL
> There are people who don't like being beaten, period. They will leave if anybody hits them.
> 
> But we are different. I enjoy the sensation of being barely able to stand next day after a sparring session.
> I don't know why, but it feels good :uhyeah:



That feeling is called masochism!


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## kbarrett

I agree with all that I've read here some good point where made, the only thing I'll add is that you don't have to punch each other in the face to have good contact sparring, my students are allowed to make open hand strike to the face, and full punchs, kick, elbow and knees to the body, their allowed to punch toward the face but they must pull the punch, but with that being said in the heat of sparring things happen, if some one get hit in the face they bow showing respect and continue sparring.  My student have to be able to surivie a street attack, and I'll leave no stone unturned to make sure they can, when I trained contact in sparring was normal, and getting hit in the face was normal also, you bow and kept sparring, that's how it was and should still be.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett


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