# Ebay Fake Certificates



## K Williams

Hopefully someone here can have this seller removed from eBay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Modern-ARNIS-Ce...0244QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMartial_Arts_Equipment


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## Drac

K Williams said:


> Hopefully someone here can have this seller removed from eBay...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Modern-ARNIS-Ce...0244QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMartial_Arts_Equipment


 

If you dig a little deeper you can find Dan certificates for almost any discipline you can name..It's not right and I don't know if anything can be done..


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## Xue Sheng

Drac said:


> If you dig a little deeper you can find Dan certificates for almost any discipline you can name..It's not right and I don't know if anything can be done..


 
OOO OOO can I get a Dan Rank Certificate for Zhaobao Taijiquan or better yet Kamiya Kasshin Ryu, Kaio-ken and Anbo-Jitsu


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## Drac

Xue Sheng said:


> OOO OOO can I get a Dan Rank Certificate for Zhaobao Taijiquan or better yet Kamiya Kasshin Ryu, Kaio-ken and Anbo-Jitsu


 
Go and look, ya never know..Ya might even find one for tree bashing...


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## MA-Caver

Letters en-massed to Ebay's corporate headquarters can help remove unwanted, unethical sales of various items. Cavers have bombarded Ebay's HQ's with e-mails and letters protesting the sale of cave formations/speleothems on their site... regardless of where they came from. Thus each time a new speleothem is up for sale/auction the HQ is bombarded until the sale is removed. 

Martial Artists working in tandem can do the same. The letters must express a valid reason as to why that particular item should be removed. If they get enough they'll ban the item. 
Getting students/instructors from all arts and legitimate schools to do the same might have a positive effect in stopping these bogus certificates from appearing. 
Sitting around complaining about it just-won't-do-it. 

Just a suggestion. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng

Drac said:


> Go and look, ya never know..*Ya might even find one for tree bashing*...


 
*NEVER!!!* :mst:

Again you have gone to far and You have offended my family and you have offended the Shaolin Temple


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## Bill Mattocks

Does it matter?  I mean, if a person has a certificate that they purchased on eBay that proclaims them King of Pooka-Pooka, does that affect me in any way?

There are fake Rolex watches, but if I owned a Rolex watch, it would still be one.

Or am I missing something?


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## MA-Caver

Bill Mattocks said:


> Does it matter?  I mean, if a person has a certificate that they purchased on eBay that proclaims them King of Pooka-Pooka, does that affect me in any way?
> 
> There are fake Rolex watches, but if I owned a Rolex watch, it would still be one.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


Probably what you're missing is that someone with a certificate (or two... even three) can open up a school and pretend to be teaching the art and make lots of money before somebody figures out he's so full of it that his eyes are brown, and that can be years later. They could have SOME real training up to say a green or brown belt level and be either a drop-out or kicked out for whatever reason and decide they've learned enough to pass for an instructor.
It gives a bad reputation to legitimate arts and instructors/BB's who are trying to run a legitimate school. Which is why McDojos are largely frowned upon.


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## terryl965

We already have those out here in the real world,this is the land of the gullible people andso be it. If someone is stupid enough to stay with someone who knows nothing about SD because of some damm certificate let that school have them. I do not need these types of people in the true world of MA.


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## Drac

Bill Mattocks said:


> Does it matter? I mean, if a person has a certificate that they purchased on eBay that proclaims them King of Pooka-Pooka, does that affect me in any way?


 
Watch it man, I *AM* the King of Pooka-Pooka....LOL



Bill Mattocks said:


> There are fake Rolex watches, but if I owned a Rolex watch, it would still be one.


 
I hear ya..



Bill Mattocks said:


> Or am I missing something?


 
Must be both of us then...


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## Bill Mattocks

MA-Caver said:


> Probably what you're missing is that someone with a certificate (or two... even three) can open up a school and pretend to be teaching the art and make lots of money before somebody figures out he's so full of it that his eyes are brown, and that can be years later. They could have SOME real training up to say a green or brown belt level and be either a drop-out or kicked out for whatever reason and decide they've learned enough to pass for an instructor.
> It gives a bad reputation to legitimate arts and instructors/BB's who are trying to run a legitimate school. Which is why McDojos are largely frowned upon.



I can understand that, but the thought occurs to me that a person so motivated could make their own certificate and fake lineage on their own if they so wished.  As well, one can buy all kinds of 'home training' programs, and who knows if any of them provide any kind of acceptable training?

I don't think Michigan (for example) requires professional licensing to open a dojo or training center for martial arts.  Many other professions do require such licensing.

http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/verify.htm

Perhaps it might be better and more productive to center efforts to stamp out 'McDojos' at the supply end?

After all, if some 30-year-old otaku fanboy living in his parent's basement wants to have a certificate saying he has earned a Platinum Belt in Gag Puk Ryu, there is no real harm done unless, as you say, he tries to teach his 'skill' to others and either ends up hurting someone or at the very least, defrauding them.

Plumbers have licenses, shouldn't martial arts teachers?  Just a thought.


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## Xue Sheng

Bill Mattocks said:


> Does it matter? I mean, if a person has a certificate that they purchased on eBay that proclaims them King of Pooka-Pooka, does that affect me in any way?
> 
> There are fake Rolex watches, but if I owned a Rolex watch, it would still be one.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


 
Well I myself have a Rolecks and I am pretty offended by those over-priced Rolex knockoffs


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## Drac

Xue Sheng said:


> Well I myself have a Rolecks and I am pretty offended by those over-priced Rolex knockoffs


 
Again you have gone to far and You have offended my Timex...


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## Carol

Hey man, once someone starts selling certs for _my _art, Rhee Bok Do, there's gonna be hell to pay! :flammad:


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## redantstyle

> Plumbers have licenses, shouldn't martial arts teachers? Just a thought.


 
that's the essential problem.  you can't regulate it.


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## Bill Mattocks

redantstyle said:


> that's the essential problem.  you can't regulate it.



Pardon my ignorance, but why not?

I'm not talking about regulating fake certificates, but regulating MA training centers.

The state of Michigan requires that boxing and MMA bouts be certified and meet state regulatory standards.  Some states regulate tattoo parlours and barbershops.  Why can't MA training be regulated?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't know why that would not work.


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## Sandstorm

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't think Michigan (for example) requires professional licensing to open a dojo or training center for martial arts. Many other professions do require such licensing.


 
Really? Wow! Here in the UK you have to show proof of licence and insurance and rank certificates. I've had to for all the venues I've ever used for teaching/training/displays etc. 

I am dead against the sale of 'instructor' certificates in this manner. If someone wants to be a black belt in Fuk Mi Doe then please, be my guest. If you can't be bothered to put in the work then that's in your concience. The REAL problem comes with the use of fake/bought certificates for teaching. This is where it gets messy for the uninformed students later on.
I started a similar thread here....

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72715

Hard to stamp out, but it's possible to make people aware.


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## Xue Sheng

Carol Kaur said:


> Hey man, once someone starts selling certs for _my _art, Rhee Bok Do, there's gonna be hell to pay! :flammad:


 
OH man I'm telling whomever is selling the fake certs....You REALLY don't want to get Carol Mad at you.....or lend her your maglight


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## redantstyle

eh, these boards are debate by nature.  little point otherwise.

in terms of regulation, stop to consider all the different arts that are practiced.  what would be the common qualifiers for them all.

no offense, but you seem to have little experience in martial arts history, lineages, and the multitude of claims that are laid by a myriad of individuals. 

here's the rub...one man makes a style famous, more or less.  after he passes on, the style fractures into multiple chapters, all which declare independance. 

nobody is going to listen to anybody else, even in a given 'style'.

regards,

JM Barr
Liu Seong Gung Fu*


*this is just one example of what i am talking about.


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## Bill Mattocks

Sandstorm said:


> Really? Wow! Here in the UK you have to show proof of licence and insurance and rank certificates. I've had to for all the venues I've ever used for teaching/training/displays etc.



http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-35299_35414_35453---,00.html

If you go to this web page, you can see we're way behind you here in Michigan.  We just recently decided to permit MMA bouts in addition to Boxing.  Wrestling isn't even licensed.

You can see on the left side of the page the type of professions that require licensing or certification.  A _'vehicle protection product warrantor'_ is required to be licensed - whatever the heck that is.  But not a teacher in MA.

So anyone could open up a dojo here - they might have to get a sales permit or something, and insurance would certainly be a good idea, but as far as their ability to train, no requirements at all.

It seems to me that the fake certificate is just the last thing in a long line of deception that would have to take place for such a thing to happen, but perhaps it could be stopped by effective licensing by the state.


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## redantstyle

> rank certificates.


 
from who?


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## Bill Mattocks

redantstyle said:


> in terms of regulation, stop to consider all the different arts that are practiced.  what would be the common qualifiers for them all.



A system of self defense, based upon martial traditions known to exist, combined with an established system of training and passing on methods, styles, and traditions of same.  A hierarchy of trainers and membership in at least one professional association dedicated to the same form of self defense which has more than one member.

Just a jump at it.



> no offense, but you seem to have little experience in martial arts history, lineages, and the multitude of claims that are laid by a myriad of individuals.



No offense taken.  I am a newbie in MA, but I have read some on the history of some MA styles.  Learning the history and traditions of the subjects in which I am interested is a hobby and habit of mine.



> here's the rub...one man makes a style famous, more or less.  after he passes on, the style fractures into multiple chapters, all which declare independance.



That has certainly been the case with Isshinryu.  However, Isshinryu is a recognized style, it has a lineage (no matter what branch one belongs to) that traces back to Master Tatsuo Shimabuku, and although one may disagree with what 'is' and 'is not' Isshinryu, one might well agree that a person claiming a belt and the right to teach either had or had not received that training in a recognized Isshinryu branch.



> nobody is going to listen to anybody else, even in a given 'style'.



It has been my experience that necessity is the mother of cooperation (also known as "when you got 'em by the short and curlies, their hearts and minds will follow").

If a state mandates licensing and establishes a board to certify professionals, the various organizations will find ways to get along to the extent that they can make that happen.

Well, just my opinion, anyway.


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## Carol

Xue Sheng said:


> OH man I'm telling whomever is selling the fake certs....You REALLY don't want to get Carol Mad at you.....or lend her your maglight



Maglights fear me.


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## Sandstorm

I guess one way would be to have a Government regulated association for all Martial Arts associations and make it law that any practicing association needs to be registered with them. That, in turn, would lead to all members of each association having to be registered on a database which is accessible to all local councils, thus checking the credibility of anyone wishing to teach. 
A bit far fetched perhaps, but it is possible.


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## arnisador

Drac said:


> If you dig a little deeper you can find Dan certificates for almost any discipline you can name..It's not right and I don't know if anything can be done..



I looked at the ad and it wasn't clear to me that he was selling signed certificates. _Someone_ has to print rank certificates. My instructor bought a fancy printer for the purpose but not everyone has one. If he's basically trying to work as a printing service for small-scale instructors that's fair though of course it's very open to abuse. But it's not like he's selling diplomas with HARVARD on them, or even rank certificates with IMAF printed on them.

So, I'm not sure I feel it's that bad. If I misunderstood and they're signed and/or attributed to a particular org., please correct me! I couldn't read the image well enough to see the names at the signature blocks and whether they were placeholder names or if he was putting "Remy Presas" in for a signature (which would be clearly fraudulent).


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## Drac

Carol Kaur said:


> Maglights fear me.


 
How many cells does your MagLite have???


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## Drac

arnisador said:


> I looked at the ad and it wasn't clear to me that he was selling signed certificates. _Someone_ has to print rank certificates. My instructor bought a fancy printer for the purpose but not everyone has one. If he's basically trying to work as a printing service for small-scale instructors that's fair though of course it's very open to abuse. But it's not like he's selling diplomas with HARVARD on them, or even rank certificates with IMAF printed on them.
> 
> So, I'm not sure I feel it's that bad. If I misunderstood and they're signed and/or attributed to a particular org., please correct me! I couldn't read the image well enough to see the names at the signature blocks and whether they were placeholder names or if he was putting "Remy Presas" in for a signature (which would be clearly fraudulent).


 
There was a guy selling Karate Dan certs in a nice wooden frame for like 35.00..


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## SensibleManiac

Probably the best that can be done is have some sort of standardized testing for obtaining a license to teach Martial arts safely. Like a safety physical training license, because the problem, yes, is that there are so many different styles but even further what about legitimate teachers of styles who just practice poor instruction and get people injured.

It exists as well.

Very difficult to implement licensing of this sort.


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## Gordon Nore

Bill Mattocks said:


> Does it matter? I mean, if a person has a certificate that they purchased on eBay that proclaims them King of Pooka-Pooka, does that affect me in any way?
> 
> There are fake Rolex watches, but if I owned a Rolex watch, it would still be one.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


 
I'm kinda with you on this one. You can make a convincing looking certificate on your home computer. Whether the cert on Sensei's wall is real or store bought, how many potential students bother trying to authenticate it? Even if it can be authenticated, what is that authentication really worth?

My chiropractor has a diploma on the wall indicating his standing with the Provincial College. If he doesn't have what he professes to have, he's in real hot water. Whether Sensei Joe's cert came from eBay or a fraudulent association, what are the legal ramifications? Call the BBB. Maybe, a civil suit.


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## David Weatherly

The other problem is that these type of certificates will always be available somewhere.  In the past they were sold in the back of magazines now they're all over the net.  Get em' off ebay and there will still be hundreds of places to get them online.


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## Rich Parsons

Bill Mattocks said:


> Plumbers have licenses, shouldn't martial arts teachers?  Just a thought.




Plumbers and electricians follow the laws of their trade and also science. 

Martial Arts form different cultures have different ways of handle the issue. 


Some quick reasons why it will not work. 

In New York it as proposed because a representative was following up from a man who had molested his students. They thought having a license was the best thing to do. Their proposal was written up by KMA people and arts that had people of 4th degree or higher being able to open a school, with a set curriculum that they had approved. But then the JMA's got involved and they were represented and their techniques were added, but no one knew how to handle weapons. Would it be aged based, as in Adult only, or at your own risk or what have you. Then people like me wrote them letters asking what about the FMA's and some arts that had no rank other than titles, such as Instructor. 

If I called an electrician or a plumber I could get within reason similar answers to a sloluton. Depending upon training they might have a newer piece of equipment but in theory it would be very similar. 

If I were to ask three different FMA's stylists to answer a question I would get 12 answers with them arguing more and more about the counters to those counters that were three deep. So, how could a Taw Kwon Do and Balintawak systems both live in this environment. One starts out with empty hands and depending upon system or style can learn weapons and concentrate on kicks. They have colored belts and ranks in black. While the other starts with a weapon and has no ranking system. 

If there was a single system the world could agree upon then we could have a single licencing that would work. 

Otherwise at best it would be like a DBA, go down and spend the $10 bucks and then open up shop, but in this case you might have to spend more money for finger prints and a background check, but in the end it still does nothing to address content of good teachers from bad teachers. Great practitioners might be horrible teachers. Poor Practitioners might be great coaches or teachers. 

I cannot see a way for it to work.



*******************************************


As to fake Certs, they happen. 

People print them. 

people sell them. 

It will happen. 


This is why a good customer will ask around and look for referrences form other people or will do an internet serch. Some could be toltally off the grid and be local and bee ok teachers, so the person going in needs to understand that where they start may  not be where they end up. they might leave for teaching style or content or personal life style change.


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## Thesemindz

Bill Mattocks said:


> Plumbers have licenses, shouldn't martial arts teachers? Just a thought.


 

Man, I was with you up to here.

No, martial arts instructors shouldn't have licenses. And neither should plumbers. Licensing is a way that the state prevents the introduction of competition into the market place. Those already in business pay the state money to practice their craft and in exchange, the state punishes anyone who attempts to practice that craft without having paid their protection money, and sets strict requirements about who can attain licenses. 

It doesn't have anything to do with product quality or customer care. It's a protection racket, built on the use of force, and designed to limit open competition.

Requiring that martial artists get licenses would only end up in increasing customer fees an decreasing the number of options available to the customer. The licensing boards would end up at the mercy of regulatory capture, and those seeking to enter the field would be required to meet unreasonable demands on investment and knowledge. 

Who decides whether TKD, Kenpo, or Shaolin Kung Fu are teaching a side kick correctly? Should instructers be required to learn all styles in order to teach any? Who sets the baseline? What about Western Boxing, Fencing, Archery, or other skill sets and systems that are related to martial arts? What is the ultimate goal, sport? Self Defense? Perpetuating a tradition?

Ultimately the customer is responsible for seeking out a trained professional capable of fulfilling his needs, just like in all other commercial transactions. Caveat Emptor. Pushing that responsibility off on the government is a recipe for disaster, and will lead to a worse situation, not a better one.

The solution to this problem is for those martial artists who are offering a quality product to let people know about it. In time, those wanting quality instruction will seek it out. Those wanting to feel better about themselves, lose weight, and learn some air karate will get what they pay for.


-Rob


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## Carol

Drac said:


> How many cells does your MagLite have???



It was a 2-AA.  

Was.  

You think your hands are tough?  My hands break maglites. :lol2:


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## matt.m

The hilarity of it all is that I have a Grandmaster ranking in Quack Fu and well my certificate looks good.


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## geezer

I Just saw this thread--"EBAY_ FAKE_ CERTIFICATES" -- Why would you need a certificate to prove you are a fake?


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## DragonMind

Martial arts schools already have two forms of "licensing": 1) a business license to operate as a commercial venture, and 2) a ranking in a style to function as a teacher. As to whether these function well, is another story. If a fake teacher opens a business and sells fraudulent products, there are already laws on the books to deal with that, both civil and criminal. If someone claims to have a rank in a legitimate art and does not, then the guiding organization is responsible for policing its own. If somebody makes up his own style, it will either sink or swim on its merits. There is no need for additional regulation, with the possible exception of certifying someone's teaching skills independently of style. We require it of other teachers, why not of MA teachers? It could certainly help add some professionalism to the field.


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## Xue Sheng

Carol Kaur said:


> Maglights fear me.


 
As they should


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## Xue Sheng

Bill Mattocks said:


> Plumbers have licenses, shouldn't martial arts teachers? Just a thought.


 
Nope

Because then people like my Yang Sifu who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and has over 50 years experience in taiji would not teach. The person that was my Wing Chun Sifu (student of Ip Ching) would not teach either and I doubt my Xingyiquan sifu would contiue trying to keep his school open, but he might do it that one is hard to say. Highly unlikely people like Chen Zenglei, Chen Xiaowang, Chen Bing or any of the Chen family would show up here to teach and you might as well rule out Di Guoyong as well. There is a rather impressive Xingyiquan guy in Boston that would likely stop teaching and there is a real deal Yin Style Bagua guy I know of that would likely stop teaching too. And this is just to name a few.

But people like my first Sifu would teach he learned much of his CMA is from a physical education University in China and that stuff is not to bad but it is modern Wushu but these days to make A LOT of money he teaches a lot of stuff he learned form DVDs and films he took in China and make lineage claims he does not have but I guarantee you he would get a license if one were required.

I dont know about other styles but that would be the end for many VERY good CMA teachers in the US


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## Sandstorm

Am I reading this right? Do MA instructors in the US not need a licence to teach? Do you not need to be licenced and affiliated with an organization that supports/recognises your chosen art? How about insurance and public liability cover? 

In the UK, for as long as I have been an instructor, I have needed to be fully licenced and insured under my associations I am involved with. I need to show these documents to any venue I wish to use to teach in or conduct seminars etc. Am I missing something here? 

Xue Sheng, you say those teachers would not teach if they had to be licenced? Why is that?
It strikes me as very odd that one can go around teaching people how to maim and even kill, and not need a licence for it. You do require firearms licences etc?

Excuse my ignorance, I am just unaware of the rules and regs of US law regarding MA teaching and I am finding this fascinating.

Thanks in advance

Regards
John


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## Bill Mattocks

Sandstorm said:


> Am I reading this right? Do MA instructors in the US not need a licence to teach? Do you not need to be licenced and affiliated with an organization that supports/recognises your chosen art? How about insurance and public liability cover?



Varies by jurisdiction, but in most places, no.  Anyone can hang out a shingle and declare themselves a teacher of whatever.



> In the UK, for as long as I have been an instructor, I have needed to be fully licenced and insured under my associations I am involved with. I need to show these documents to any venue I wish to use to teach in or conduct seminars etc. Am I missing something here?



Most public venues will require a showing of liability insurance.  That can be purchased privately.  Still no licensing required.



> It strikes me as very odd that one can go around teaching people how to maim and even kill, and not need a licence for it. You do require firearms licences etc?
> [/quote
> 
> Varies by jurisdiction.  Some states have carry-concealed (CCW) laws.  Some do not allow such carry.  Some do not require licensing to carry (Vermont, as I recall).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse my ignorance, I am just unaware of the rules and regs of US law regarding MA teaching and I am finding this fascinating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You may find systems of regulation in use more often in countries which have a tradition of skilled trades descended from guilds.  We got some, but not all, of that tradition from England.
> 
> So we have a mish-mash of laws.  You need a license or certificate to teach in a public school, but not to teach privately.  You need a license to be a plumber, electrician, or carpenter, but not to be an automotive mechanic.  You need a license to be a private investigator (in some places) or even a psychic, but not to teach martial arts.
> 
> Ultimately, it is caveat emptor or 'buyer beware' for a student investigating martial arts training in the USA.  One must do their own homework, find out if a dojo is associated with any groups or organizations, and if so, if those organizations are themselves recognized.  One must determine if the training center in question has liability insurance (you still have to sign a liability waiver to work out,  generally).  One must investigate the trainer's lineage and from whence they claim their authority to teach.  A daunting task for the newbie.
> 
> Hence, there are many black belt mills in the USA.  Sign the kids up, pay a fee on a contract, get a guaranteed or nearly-guaranteed black belt after a specified period of time.  In some places, it is a fancy form of daycare for the kiddies.  Doesn't mean you can't learn in such places, or that all instructors at such places are bad - but that quality varies incredibly and there is no system of verification or licensing.
Click to expand...


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## Xue Sheng

Sandstorm

Not worth the hassle and expense to get the license


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## jks9199

Sandstorm said:


> Am I reading this right? Do MA instructors in the US not need a licence to teach? Do you not need to be licenced and affiliated with an organization that supports/recognises your chosen art? How about insurance and public liability cover?
> 
> In the UK, for as long as I have been an instructor, I have needed to be fully licenced and insured under my associations I am involved with. I need to show these documents to any venue I wish to use to teach in or conduct seminars etc. Am I missing something here?
> 
> Xue Sheng, you say those teachers would not teach if they had to be licenced? Why is that?
> It strikes me as very odd that one can go around teaching people how to maim and even kill, and not need a licence for it. You do require firearms licences etc?
> 
> Excuse my ignorance, I am just unaware of the rules and regs of US law regarding MA teaching and I am finding this fascinating.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Regards
> John


I can't speak for everywhere in the US... but generally, there's no need to be connected to an association or licensed by the local government beyond the basic licenses and occupancy permits involved in opening any business.  Some properties may require insurance, but you don't need to get that through an organization -- just an insurance company.

Unfortunately, that also holds true for the martial arts schools that essentially offer day care services under the guise of a "before and after school martial arts program."  But you can read my views on that in lots of other threads...


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## geezer

Sandstorm said:


> Am I reading this right? Do MA instructors in the US not need a licence to teach?...
> 
> It strikes me as very odd that one can go around teaching people how to maim and even kill, and not need a licence for it...
> 
> Excuse my ignorance, I am just unaware of the rules and regs of US law regarding MA teaching and I am finding this fascinating.


 
_Whoa, dude!!!_ I'm getting a bit of trans-Atlantic culture shock myself, here. _Of course_ you can teach without an association certification or "license" here in the States. As far as liability insurance goes, you'd be an idiot not to have coverage in this suit-happy society. 

Regarding certification in the UK, how do you guys deal with someone who is independent? An individual who teaches something very little-known and who isn't part of any organization? Or, what about the guy who has split off from his parent organization and gone off on his own? Or an experienced martial artist who has devised his own teaching method based on what he has learned? These are not hypothetical questions at all. I personally know instructors in each of these categories. Do you have such people teaching in the UK?

And secondly, judging from the way government bureaucracies generally _bozo_ things up, at least here in the US, how do you make it work fairly and efficiently over there?

You know, this should be a topic for it's own thread. I think I'll start one in the "General MA" department. I'll look for you there.


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## Sandstorm

geezer said:


> _Whoa, dude!!!_ I'm getting a bit of trans-Atlantic culture shock myself, here.


LOL!!




geezer said:


> You know, this should be a topic for it's own thread.


 
Ok, I'll look for you there and answer your questions

Thanks for all the responses, it's been interesting.


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## matt.m

As a side note, since his military discharge certificate have an offical looking name, signature, title, etc I reported the link to headquarters marine corps.


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## bowser666

Again this is why I say it is best for a school to be part of a association and thus recognized.  Most importantly it is the students responsibility to research the school and not just show and start taking classes. One of the reasons I love this forum so much, your collective expertise helped me to come to my decision based on your input about my schools lineage. A serious journey into MA should have serious preparation aka research before you jump in. If every MA potential student did this, alot of McDojo's would lose out and close their doors.


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## Haze

You have fakes with fake certs and you have fakes with real certs. 
True or not? 

We need to run our lives, schools and all we do with some integrity. 

The house made of cards (certs) will always fold.


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## K Williams

matt.m said:


> As a side note, since his military discharge certificate have an offical looking name, signature, title, etc I reported the link to headquarters marine corps.


 
Maybe some Force Recon types will pay him a nice visit!


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## Darkmoon

Let them sell their piece of paper. Dojos may want it for their own use in their school. 

Or some duchbag out their wants to look cool in front of people, but a piece of paper won't give you the years of training the rest of us have. When those people walk into a Dojo showing their paper they will get embarrassed and look like a fool if they don't get their butt beat in sparing. 

People are always going to make forgeries of everything. Only those who are well trained can spot them.

I wouldnt worry about it, but if you want to try and get them removed be my guest. I won't stop you, or speak ill of you.


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