# Kukkiwon certification



## J. Pickard (Jan 24, 2021)

Looking to get Kukkiwon certified and be able to help my students do the same. A little background: I have trainined Chung Do Kwan TKD for 20 years and my school is primarily a CDK TKD school that incorporates concepts of other systems I currently train or have trained in the past. We focus on the practical side of martial arts and not so much on sport; we allow trips, takedowns, and punches to the head when free sparring above 7th gup. We follow Kukki poomsae (taegeuk) but incorporate some karate Kata from back in the early days of Chung Do Kwan such as Bassai (balsek), Empi (yumbee), and Kushanku (Kosokun). I have been certified By Chung Do Kwan up to 4th dan but never opted for Kukkiwon certification when it was offered for no reason other than the extra cost and I had no additional money. Due to what I felt was a growing cult mentality, declining standards, and a very closed mindset my school left the Chung Do Kwan last year. Now The only certificates I can offer my students are our own schools certificates (which seems to be fine for our students) but I would like to be able to offer our black belts the opportunity to get international recognition through Kukkiwon certification if they want it.  

Hoping someone can help point me in the right direction. 
Thanks in advance


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## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2021)

Here is the Kukkiwon main website: World Taekwondo Headquarters (kukkiwon.or.kr)
I believe it is Watergal that has experience in this so will hopefully chime in. 
I feel certain you would have to go this route or something similar: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/front/pageView.action?cmd=/eng/evaluate/promotion_test
Is there a Kukkiwon school reasonably close to you? Preferably one with an older Korean instructor of higher rank than yourself? They should be a good source of information and may be a much easier path to utilize them through the transference. 

But I have to ask, why not try to move into the ITF vein? Correct me it I am wrong but is it not similar to your Chung Do Kwan background? May be an easier transition. 

I have a deep WT/Kukkiwon background but we are rather eclectic, similar to your description less some of the forms you mention. We are historically Moo Duk Kwan and closer align this way over pure WT/Kukki schools. 
All that to say I hope and encourage you to keep your CDK roots and not change you way of teaching. I think we all realize the biggest impact WT/Kukkiwon has had is in the competition side of things. But I will rather loudly tell you beyond that I find it lacking. It is slowly getting better but has a long way to go. It is just such a big machine that is very hard to get around and still say you are TKD anymore. 

Welcome to the forum. I hope you stay in touch. 

If you are in the southeast I may be able to help me. PM me if you wish.


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## skribs (Jan 24, 2021)

FAQs




> *8. There are numerous Organizations (Kwans) that certify Black Belts (Ji Do Kwan, Chung Do Kwan, Moo Do Kwan, etc.) Can I transfer my Kwan Dan over to Kukkiwon?*





> The Kukkiwon and Organizing Committee are working hard to allow for the transfer of Kwan Black Belt Certification to official Kukkiwon Certification.  Currently, the Kukkiwon will accept a transfer from a different Kwan certificate up to a maximum of 3rd Dan Kukkiwon.
> 
> *Current Kwan Black Belt Certificate* *Kukkiwon Black Belt Certificate*
> 1st Dan Kwan Certificate 1st Dan Kukkiwon
> ...



Chung Do Kwon is listed as one of the available Kwons you can transfer in.  However, the highest you can transfer in at is 3rd Dan.  After that, This is better than if you were with ITF, ATA, etc., where you would probably need to start at 1st Dan with KKW.  It appears you can then test for 4th Dan, but that _might_ be a skip dan test.

You would also then need to take the Kukkiwon Master License Course.  

Keep in mind that this website does not appear to have been updated since 2017, so it is possible the information is out-of-date.


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## dvcochran (Jan 25, 2021)

skribs said:


> FAQs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@skribs , is this information from the Kukkiwon website? If so, this is another good reason the OP may be better off getting with a local KKW school and working it out that way.


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## J. Pickard (Jan 25, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Here is the Kukkiwon main website: World Taekwondo Headquarters (kukkiwon.or.kr)
> I believe it is Watergal that has experience in this so will hopefully chime in.
> I feel certain you would have to go this route or something similar: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/front/pageView.action?cmd=/eng/evaluate/promotion_test
> Is there a Kukkiwon school reasonably close to you? Preferably one with an older Korean instructor of higher rank than yourself? They should be a good source of information and may be a much easier path to utilize them through the transference.
> ...



We already do Kukki TKD poomsae (taegeuk poomsae and kukki yudanja) and the head of the Chung Do Kwan association I was a part of also worked directly with Kukkiwon so I am more familiar with them than ITF. 

Thanks for all the info everyone.


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## WaterGal (Jan 25, 2021)

Kukkiwon does, or at least did as of a few years ago, offer special transfer/assimilation testing for people in circumstances like yours. You'd take a test in front of a panel of KKW masters, and if you're successful, you'd get your non-KKW TKD rank "transferred" into a similar KKW rank. My other half took the Kukkiwon Master Instructor course in Denver a few years back, and they were offering this test at the same event.

I did a quick google search, and I'm honestly not sure if this is still available. There's an American group called the WTMU that organizes some TKD instructor/ref/etc training events, and they do show on their website that "Kukkiwon Assimilation Test" is is something they offer, but they don't have any upcoming events listed (possibly for obvious reasons). You can check out their site here: https://www.wtmu.org/programs. It would probably be worth dropping them a line.

You'll also want to take the Kukkiwon Master instructor course. Kukkiwon is going to start requiring that you have passed this class in order to promote students to black belt, I think starting later this year. It's basically a 3 day class that goes over the Kukkiwon curriculum, to make sure everyone's on the same page, and some other things like history and standards and such. When Mr WaterGal did it, they had a Korean army general teach some self-defense techniques that he was trying to get made into part of the KKW curriculum, but I'm not sure if that's a standard part of it.

Once you get your KKW 4th dan and master's license, you can register on the Kukkiwon Member System (KMS) website, which is a site that lets you submit black belt certs for your students online.

Edit: I realized that I'm assuming, here, that you're American. If you're not, you may want to contact your national organization for KKW TKD. My understanding is that in a lot of countries, the national organization handles these things.


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## skribs (Jan 25, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> @skribs , is this information from the Kukkiwon website? If so, this is another good reason the OP may be better off getting with a local KKW school and working it out that way.



The information is from the link at the top of my post.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 26, 2021)

The Kukkiwon Kwan transfer information posted above is correct. The reason it's limited is (in my guess) it's very common to have Kwan ranks be one rank higher than your Kukkiwon, so if they allow transfer ranks from Kwans in that case people can jump to higher ranks without testing (as sometimes Kwan rank is given as a friendship rank, rather than tested for - the Kwan HQs want it to be tested for, but that's not what always happens).

I'm a Changmookwan 7th Dan which I tested for under my late instructor, but if the Kukkiwon allowed crossover of higher dan Kwan ranks, I could jump to 7th Dan Kukkiwon and then I'm sure there's someone out there that would give me my Changmookwan 8th Dan as a friendship rank. Now, personally, I wouldn't do that - but I can imagine some people would.

So they won't let you crossover to master rank. So the OP would be able to cross over to 3rd Dan Kukkiwon, but therefore not promote anyone to Kukkiwon rank. When they get to 4th Dan they could, but as @WaterGal correctly said, they are bringing in the requirement to have a Kukkiwon Master certificate (which is a 5 day course if taken in Korea) so you'd need that in place too.

The self-defence syllabus is part of current Kukkiwon syllabus (at least we were told so at the course in Korea in 2016), but the official professionally produced video isn't available yet. I took a video of the rough-cut of the entire syllabus (filmed in a few masters' dojangs).

Hope this helps fill in any gaps, if not, I'm happy to answer where I can or find out if I can't answer

(Kukkiwon-certified 3rd and 2nd Class Master, Kukkiwon 6th Dan and Kukkiwon-certified Poom/Dan Examiner)


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## dvcochran (Jan 26, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> The Kukkiwon Kwan transfer information posted above is correct. The reason it's limited is (in my guess) it's very common to have Kwan ranks be one rank higher than your Kukkiwon, so if they allow transfer ranks from Kwans in that case people can jump to higher ranks without testing (as sometimes Kwan rank is given as a friendship rank, rather than tested for - the Kwan HQs want it to be tested for, but that's not what always happens).
> 
> I'm a Changmookwan 7th Dan which I tested for under my late instructor, but if the Kukkiwon allowed crossover of higher dan Kwan ranks, I could jump to 7th Dan Kukkiwon and then I'm sure there's someone out there that would give me my Changmookwan 8th Dan as a friendship rank. Now, personally, I wouldn't do that - but I can imagine some people would.
> 
> ...


Informative. 
To be clear; the International Taekwondo Master Course outlined on the kukkiwon.org website and the courses outlined on the WTMU.org website are two different thing. Correct?


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## WaterGal (Jan 26, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Informative.
> To be clear; the International Taekwondo Master Course outlined on the kukkiwon.org website and the courses outlined on the WTMU.org website are two different thing. Correct?



The master course should be the same thing, it's just that the WTMU is organizing them in the US so Americans don't have to fly to Korea to take it.


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## WaterGal (Jan 26, 2021)

Oh, I almost forgot! I saw a video from Kukkiwon a few months ago, which said that Kukkiwon is going to start offering the lecture part of the Master course over the internet. So you could take most of the class that way, and then there will be some other part that you need to go do in-person after.

I'm looking at the Kukkiwon website now, and it does look like they're hyping this online course now.


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## dvcochran (Jan 26, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> Oh, I almost forgot! I saw a video from Kukkiwon a few months ago, which said that Kukkiwon is going to start offering the lecture part of the Master course over the internet. So you could take most of the class that way, and then there will be some other part that you need to go do in-person after.
> 
> I'm looking at the Kukkiwon website now, and it does look like they're hyping this online course now.


I hope you can pass what you find along.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 26, 2021)

Man, I just love the dogpile of helpfulness in this thread. Well done, all.


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## skribs (Jan 27, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> The self-defence syllabus is part of current Kukkiwon syllabus (at least we were told so at the course in Korea in 2016), but the official professionally produced video isn't available yet. I took a video of the rough-cut of the entire syllabus (filmed in a few masters' dojangs).



I wasn't aware there *was* an official Kukkiwon self-defense syllabus.  As far as I was aware, the requirements basically boiled down to: Taegeuks (and Yudanja for black belts), WT sparring, and then whatever the Master wants to do for everything else.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 27, 2021)

skribs said:


> I wasn't aware there *was* an official Kukkiwon self-defense syllabus.  As far as I was aware, the requirements basically boiled down to: Taegeuks (and Yudanja for black belts), WT sparring, and then whatever the Master wants to do for everything else.



Oh hell no!

The self-defence syllabus includes "traditional" Taekwondo self defence like wrist releases, collar releases, wrist locks, elbow locks and knife defence, but definitely now officially has:

* More realistic applications of traditional Taekwondo blocks and strikes
* Breakfalls
* Takedowns (and takedown defences)
* Chokes (guillotine, arm triangle and rear naked)
* Ground positional changes (e.g. from being in full guard to side control)
* Ground submissions (e.g. armbar, Americana)

They showed us a video of the masters involved demonstrating every element, but they were shot in different dojangs and had lots of background noise. They said to not share the video as they are going to produce a professional one and they didn't want their "rough version" being people's official view of Kukkiwon, but as we were master course attendees it was fine. They were OK with me videoing it on my iPad for personal use too, so I have the detail on video still.

Also, they changed the way one-step sparring is done - it always used to be that the attacker went back in to a long stance low block, shouted, then waited for the defender before punching. More recently a lot of dojangs did the attack and defence from Junbi (joonbee), with the same warning shouts going on. The current standard is both are in a right foot back sparring stance, at the start of the "set"/"session" the attacker shouts, the defender shouts and then no more warning shouts before each attack during the pairing. They take it in turns to attack and should be switched-on enough to know after they've just tried to attack, their opponent will be coming next without needing a warning shout. The shouts right at the start of the set are to ensure both partners are focused and aware of what they're doing. If there was no warning shout at the very start, one of them could have heard "one step sparring" and the other was turning to the master to say "sorry sir, I missed that, what drill are we doing?" and get punched in the head.

Only right hand punch attacks are done. I questioned this on the master course in 2016, whether it was definitely right hand only and if so why; and they said "yes, right hand only. 95% of attacks on the street are a right hand punch, so we train 100% of the time for the common attack. If we didn't, we'd have to split 50:50 to get both sides trained well, and then we're training too much for an uncommon attack for it to be natural. Also, if someone attacks left handed, you'll naturally deal with it, even with basic techniques, once you've got used to someone trying to punch you and defending it, even if you're used to the other hand".


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## andyjeffries (Jan 27, 2021)

For those wanting to learn more about the master course, the WTA website is the official place. WTA stands for World Taekwondo Academy and is a department of Kukkiwon (although I believe the WTA offices are now in the Taekwondowon building, although they may have changed back recently - I believe there's some politics involved there). http://wta.kukkiwon.or.kr/en/trainingProcess/masterCourse?menuid=1073&topMenuid=1072

I attended the course in Korea twice - 3rd Class as a 5th Dan in 2013, and 2nd Class as a 6th Dan in 2016. My next time to qualify won't be until I get my Kukkiwon 8th dan many years away  I may do a "refresher course" between now and then though, just to stay up to date. The same course, but no final written exam or physical test.

I kept diaries of each of my time on the courses, if anyone wants to read more:

Diary of Foreign Taekwondo Masters Training Course, Korea 2013
International Master Instructor Course, Korea 2016


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## dvcochran (Jan 27, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> For those wanting to learn more about the master course, the WTA website is the official place. WTA stands for World Taekwondo Academy and is a department of Kukkiwon (although I believe the WTA offices are now in the Taekwondowon building, although they may have changed back recently - I believe there's some politics involved there). http://wta.kukkiwon.or.kr/en/trainingProcess/masterCourse?menuid=1073&topMenuid=1072
> 
> I attended the course in Korea twice - 3rd Class as a 5th Dan in 2013, and 2nd Class as a 6th Dan in 2016. My next time to qualify won't be until I get my Kukkiwon 8th dan many years away  I may do a "refresher course" between now and then though, just to stay up to date. The same course, but no final written exam or physical test.
> 
> ...


Politics in KKW TKD? Shocking!!!

The 'vagueness' and indeterminate nature of things not specifically involved with competition (forms/sparring) has been an ongoing theme which I have never understood it.


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## skribs (Jan 27, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Oh hell no!
> 
> The self-defence syllabus includes "traditional" Taekwondo self defence like wrist releases, collar releases, wrist locks, elbow locks and knife defence, but definitely now officially has:
> 
> ...



I'm curious now how my Master's curriculum, or the one I'm developing, compares to the official one. Although this is still the first I've heard of there being an official self-defense curriculum.

We don't have any ground-fighting in our curriculum, nor do we have collar releases.  We don't have much in the way of chokes, either.  (I have a few more in mine than my Master does in his). We do have a lot of wristlocks and arm locks, and a few situations you didn't mention (i.e. body grabs, gun defense).  

I do disagree that you would "figure out" how to do left-hand punch defense on the fly.  I do agree it's easier to learn once you know right handed, but that's something to figure out in the safe environment of training, instead of on the street.  I also find it odd for Taekwondo, since we train 50:50 in kicks and punches ourselves.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 27, 2021)

skribs said:


> I'm curious now how my Master's curriculum, or the one I'm developing, compares to the official one. Although this is still the first I've heard of there being an official self-defense curriculum.
> 
> We don't have any ground-fighting in our curriculum, nor do we have collar releases.  We don't have much in the way of chokes, either.  (I have a few more in mine than my Master does in his). We do have a lot of wristlocks and arm locks, and a few situations you didn't mention (i.e. body grabs, gun defense).
> 
> I do disagree that you would "figure out" how to do left-hand punch defense on the fly.  I do agree it's easier to learn once you know right handed, but that's something to figure out in the safe environment of training, instead of on the street.  I also find it odd for Taekwondo, since we train 50:50 in kicks and punches ourselves.



I thought about that a lot after being told it, and where I came down to is this:

Let's assume we wanted to train to defend either side punch we'd need to split the time 50:50. That gives us equal chances with either hand. Now, let's assume only one defence technique - we train them equally and all is well. However, students would get very bored very quickly and wouldn't bother (or masters wouldn't make them). So we have to have a good variety of them to stave off boredom. So now we're at "many" techniques and 50:50 split. If practicing a given technique many times makes it more natural/fluid, then we'd be wasting 45% of them on a hand that's unlikely to come. Given that an inward block (with either blocking hand to either striking hand) followed by a straight punch works, a 5% chance of a left hand defence has a working counter, and doesn't need the variety the other hand got so you don't just practice that one for many many hours. In reality the best defence to a punch is something super simple - parry and strike (and strike again if needed), all the other techniques are for interest and avoiding boredom.

So I kinda got on board... Even practicing 100% right handed will give you the reaction speed for a left hand punch coming, the most basic defence will come naturally, so no need to waste 45% of time, or reduce the syllabus lots in order to train both hands equally (given X hours in class you can fit in Y defence techniques if one handed defending or 1/2 of Y defence techniques if you want both hands equally).


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## skribs (Jan 27, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I thought about that a lot after being told it, and where I came down to is this:
> 
> Let's assume we wanted to train to defend either side punch we'd need to split the time 50:50. That gives us equal chances with either hand. Now, let's assume only one defence technique - we train them equally and all is well. However, students would get very bored very quickly and wouldn't bother (or masters wouldn't make them). So we have to have a good variety of them to stave off boredom. So now we're at "many" techniques and 50:50 split. If practicing a given technique many times makes it more natural/fluid, then we'd be wasting 45% of them on a hand that's unlikely to come. Given that an inward block (with either blocking hand to either striking hand) followed by a straight punch works, a 5% chance of a left hand defence has a working counter, and doesn't need the variety the other hand got so you don't just practice that one for many many hours. In reality the best defence to a punch is something super simple - parry and strike (and strike again if needed), all the other techniques are for interest and avoiding boredom.
> 
> So I kinda got on board... Even practicing 100% right handed will give you the reaction speed for a left hand punch coming, the most basic defence will come naturally, so no need to waste 45% of time, or reduce the syllabus lots in order to train both hands equally (given X hours in class you can fit in Y defence techniques if one handed defending or 1/2 of Y defence techniques if you want both hands equally).



My plan is to start with right-side only defenses, and then around red or brown belt to add in left-side defense.  Personally, I find the 95% number suspect as well, because many people are trained in arts that include the jab.

There is one thing that worries me about this conversation: am I going to fail the Master course because I don't know how to do an Americana or ground-fighting position changes?  Since my goal is to become a Master and open my own school, I kind of feel like I'm wasting my time if I'm not going to qualify.


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## skribs (Jan 27, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> The 'vagueness' and indeterminate nature of things not specifically involved with competition (forms/sparring) has been an ongoing theme which I have never understood it.



This is what I have a concern about.  Forms/sparring seem very well defined, quality controlled, and universally accepted.  The other stuff...not so much.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 27, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Only right hand punch attacks are done. I questioned this on the master course in 2016, whether it was definitely right hand only and if so why; and they said "yes, right hand only. 95% of attacks on the street are a right hand punch, so we train 100% of the time for the common attack. If we didn't, we'd have to split 50:50 to get both sides trained well, and then we're training too much for an uncommon attack for it to be natural. Also, if someone attacks left handed, you'll naturally deal with it, even with basic techniques, once you've got used to someone trying to punch you and defending it, even if you're used to the other hand".


This is contradictory in itself. Either you are training for right hand because that's the most likely thing you'll have to train for, and spending time training for the left hand is 'wasted time', or it doesn't matter which hand the attack comes from if the defense works.

If you're making the second claim, then it ultimately shouldn't matter if you train for attacks from the right or left hand, and no time would be wasted training for the wrong one.

If the first is true, then you're acknowledging the second claim isn't since that's the whole reason you're only training the one side. Also, you're playing a probability game-either you get attacked from the right side, in which case 100% of the training time was useful, or you get attacked from the left side, in which case 0% of it was useful, and ou spent all that time for nothing.

I also have a lot of doubts about the 95% number, for two reasons. 1) 10-12% of the population is left-handed, so if you took that at face value, the number would be 88-90% of the time, which is enough IMO to train for the uncommon version. 2) We shouldn't take it at face value, since that assumes we are getting attacked from someone head on. That's ignoring that people can jump out at you from behind, the right or the left side where you don't see them, or with multiple attackers that one of them will end up on the left side. Which _should_ even out the numbers even more, dropping it further from 90% right-handed/right-side (from attackers viewpoint) attacks.


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## skribs (Jan 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I also have a lot of doubts about the 95% number, for two reasons. 1) 10-12% of the population is left-handed, so if you took that at face value, the number would be 88-90% of the time, which is enough IMO to train for the uncommon version. 2) We shouldn't take it at face value, since that assumes we are getting attacked from someone head on. That's ignoring that people can jump out at you from behind, the right or the left side where you don't see them, or with multiple attackers that one of them will end up on the left side. Which _should_ even out the numbers even more, dropping it further from 90% right-handed/right-side (from attackers viewpoint) attacks.



Or, as I said: a jab.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 27, 2021)

skribs said:


> Or, as I said: a jab.


Yup. I responded before reading that reply.


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## dvcochran (Jan 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This is contradictory in itself. Either you are training for right hand because that's the most likely thing you'll have to train for, and spending time training for the left hand is 'wasted time', or it doesn't matter which hand the attack comes from if the defense works.
> 
> If you're making the second claim, then it ultimately shouldn't matter if you train for attacks from the right or left hand, and no time would be wasted training for the wrong one.
> 
> ...


Agree. Another numbers game I see at some schools it the high number of one-steps they do. We practice both sides and worry much less about knowing 55 different one-steps (the highest I know).


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## dvcochran (Jan 27, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I thought about that a lot after being told it, and where I came down to is this:
> 
> Let's assume we wanted to train to defend either side punch we'd need to split the time 50:50. That gives us equal chances with either hand. Now, let's assume only one defence technique - we train them equally and all is well. However, students would get very bored very quickly and wouldn't bother (or masters wouldn't make them). So we have to have a good variety of them to stave off boredom. So now we're at "many" techniques and 50:50 split. If practicing a given technique many times makes it more natural/fluid, then we'd be wasting 45% of them on a hand that's unlikely to come. Given that an inward block (with either blocking hand to either striking hand) followed by a straight punch works, a 5% chance of a left hand defence has a working counter, and doesn't need the variety the other hand got so you don't just practice that one for many many hours. In reality the best defence to a punch is something super simple - parry and strike (and strike again if needed), all the other techniques are for interest and avoiding boredom.
> 
> So I kinda got on board... Even practicing 100% right handed will give you the reaction speed for a left hand punch coming, the most basic defence will come naturally, so no need to waste 45% of time, or reduce the syllabus lots in order to train both hands equally (given X hours in class you can fit in Y defence techniques if one handed defending or 1/2 of Y defence techniques if you want both hands equally).



But you are not just training both 'hands'. There are tons more stuff gained from working both sides. To name just a very few is foot/body work, stance/posture, balance/anatomy, recognition/reaction. This list goes on and on. Dismissing it due to boredom is just lazy and frankly lame. 
I am certain it takes the average person longer to get a given technique correct from both sides than it does to learn two techniques on their favored side. 

"If it was easy we would have little girls doing it for half the price." That is an old saying I have heard all my life. Sounds pretty stupid when I see it written down. That is pretty much how your explanation sounded.


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## skribs (Jan 27, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I am certain it takes the average person longer to get a given technique correct from both sides than it does to learn two techniques on their favored side.



I would say the opposite.  It takes quite a bit of time to learn one side correctly.  Once you understand the theory, it's a lot easier to mirror it to the other side.  I've probably handwritten less than 10 pages with my left hand in my entire life.  Yet, my left-handed writing is much better than my right-handed writing was when I was in first grade.  By then, I had been drilling writing for a couple of years.  I am much better at throwing a ball with my left hand than I was as a kid throwing a ball with my right.  And as a kid, I *loved* to play catch.  It is much easier to adjust to left-handed training that is to learn it in the first place.

I'd argue it's easier to adjust 2-3 techniques to the left hand than to learn a single new technique with the right.


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## dvcochran (Jan 27, 2021)

skribs said:


> I would say the opposite.  It takes quite a bit of time to learn one side correctly.  Once you understand the theory, it's a lot easier to mirror it to the other side.  I've probably handwritten less than 10 pages with my left hand in my entire life.  Yet, my left-handed writing is much better than my right-handed writing was when I was in first grade.  By then, I had been drilling writing for a couple of years.  I am much better at throwing a ball with my left hand than I was as a kid throwing a ball with my right.  And as a kid, I *loved* to play catch.  It is much easier to adjust to left-handed training that is to learn it in the first place.
> 
> I'd argue it's easier to adjust 2-3 techniques to the left hand than to learn a single new technique with the right.



Does your school work both sides? I could see that viewpoint more from someone who works both sides. 

You do not feel you are an exception, somewhat ambidextrous? I am very, very left handed. Even when my left arm was restrained for a couple of months to heal it did not make that much difference. I still have more trouble doing one-steps on one side. I would have to say my footwork is a (very) little better on the right side, because it is a right sided world but it is much easier for me to lead with my left hand.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2021)

skribs said:


> I do disagree that you would "figure out" how to do left-hand punch defense on the fly. I do agree it's easier to learn once you know right handed, but that's something to figure out in the safe environment of training, instead of on the street. I also find it odd for Taekwondo, since we train 50:50 in kicks and punches ourselves.


I agree that it seems a radical assumption. It can lead to both difficulties detecting left-hand attacks, and habits that leave openings for those.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 27, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I thought about that a lot after being told it, and where I came down to is this:
> 
> Let's assume we wanted to train to defend either side punch we'd need to split the time 50:50. That gives us equal chances with either hand. Now, let's assume only one defence technique - we train them equally and all is well. However, students would get very bored very quickly and wouldn't bother (or masters wouldn't make them). So we have to have a good variety of them to stave off boredom. So now we're at "many" techniques and 50:50 split. If practicing a given technique many times makes it more natural/fluid, then we'd be wasting 45% of them on a hand that's unlikely to come. Given that an inward block (with either blocking hand to either striking hand) followed by a straight punch works, a 5% chance of a left hand defence has a working counter, and doesn't need the variety the other hand got so you don't just practice that one for many many hours. In reality the best defence to a punch is something super simple - parry and strike (and strike again if needed), all the other techniques are for interest and avoiding boredom.
> 
> So I kinda got on board... Even practicing 100% right handed will give you the reaction speed for a left hand punch coming, the most basic defence will come naturally, so no need to waste 45% of time, or reduce the syllabus lots in order to train both hands equally (given X hours in class you can fit in Y defence techniques if one handed defending or 1/2 of Y defence techniques if you want both hands equally).


I don’t think a 50/50 split is necessary. I encourage students to “mix it up” in freestyle one-step drills. This results in something like 80% right handed attacks, which seems optimal.


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## skribs (Jan 27, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Does your school work both sides? I could see that viewpoint more from someone who works both sides.



We train both sides for basic techniques and sparring.  We don't train both sides for punch defense (with one exception: one belt we train defense against 2 punches, the second of which is a left-hand punch).  However, in Hapkido, we are encouraged to train both sides for handgrabs once we've familiarized ourselves with the first side.

I do agree that specifically training for what's common is the best approach until you're comfortable with it.  However, I think purposefully ignoring one side leads to that opening that @gpseymour said.  



> You do not feel you are an exception, somewhat ambidextrous? I am very, very left handed. Even when my left arm was restrained for a couple of months to heal it did not make that much difference. I still have more trouble doing one-steps on one side. I would have to say my footwork is a (very) little better on the right side, because it is a right sided world but it is much easier for me to lead with my left hand.



I could be.  But we do train a lot of our stuff for both sides, and most students are able to work both sides.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This is contradictory in itself. Either you are training for right hand because that's the most likely thing you'll have to train for, and spending time training for the left hand is 'wasted time', or it doesn't matter which hand the attack comes from if the defense works.
> 
> If you're making the second claim, then it ultimately shouldn't matter if you train for attacks from the right or left hand, and no time would be wasted training for the wrong one.
> 
> ...


I will also point out that since we don’t get to dictate the circumstances of when or where we might be forced to defend ourselves, there are simply a lot of unknowns in the mix.  We might get attacked while holding an armful of groceries in the right arm, or while holding a baby in the right arm, something that cannot simply be dropped carelessly in the act of defense.  So practice both sides, in my opinion.  You will always have a stronger side, no doubt, but so what?  You can do a lot to create a good deal of equality.  The effort isn’t wasted, and some level of ambidexterity isn’t a bad thing.  I think it’s a good exercise for the brain as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I will also point out that since we don’t get to dictate the circumstances of when or where we might be forced to defend ourselves, there are simply a lot of unknowns in the mix.  We might get attacked while holding an armful of groceries in the right arm, or while holding a baby in the right arm, something that cannot simply be dropped carelessly in the act of defense.  So practice both sides, in my opinion.  You will always have a stronger side, no doubt, but so what?  You can do a lot to create a good deal of equality.  The effort isn’t wasted, and some level of ambidexterity isn’t a bad thing.  I think it’s a good exercise for the brain as well.


At the dojo where I trained the longest, it was common practice when injured to find a way to train safely with that injury, just for the experience of learning to adapt. So, if I had a pulled muscle in my shoulder, I'd practice without that arm (either tucked in the belt, or just hanging limply). If I had a finger injury, I'd practice not using that hand (but still using the arm, so useful only for blocking and leverage).

I'll also add out of casual observation that it's a bit unpredictable what we will choose not to drop/put down in the moment. I've seen people try to catch stumbling kids but not be able to because some random (relatively unimportant) item was in their hand and their brain couldn't process both "drop that thing" and "catch that kid" at the same time.


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## skribs (Jan 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I will also point out that since we don’t get to dictate the circumstances of when or where we might be forced to defend ourselves, there are simply a lot of unknowns in the mix. We might get attacked while holding an armful of groceries in the right arm, or while holding a baby in the right arm, something that cannot simply be dropped carelessly in the act of defense. So practice both sides, in my opinion. You will always have a stronger side, no doubt, but so what? You can do a lot to create a good deal of equality. The effort isn’t wasted, and some level of ambidexterity isn’t a bad thing. I think it’s a good exercise for the brain as well.



Except we're talking about the response to the *other person*.  Whether I have groceries in my right arm probably wouldn't affect whether my assailant uses a left punch or a right punch.


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## dvcochran (Jan 28, 2021)

skribs said:


> Except we're talking about the response to the *other person*.  Whether I have groceries in my right arm probably wouldn't affect whether my assailant uses a left punch or a right punch.


I took Flying Crane's comment as how would a person be able to respond to an attackers initial action if the only hand they ever practice with is holding a child or bag of groceries. 
Seems like a valid argument.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 28, 2021)

skribs said:


> Except we're talking about the response to the *other person*.  Whether I have groceries in my right arm probably wouldn't affect whether my assailant uses a left punch or a right punch.


Fair enough, but I would say it’s the flip side of the same issue.  

When you fight, do you use your right arm in a dominant way, with the left being used in a supporting role, regardless of whether the attack come in with a right or a left?  If so, then it doesn’t matter which arm the attacker uses.  

If you switch roles depending on the attack, then it does matter. 

Or, if the infant is in your right arm when you are surprised with an attack, you may need to use your left arm as the only weapon, with the right arm unable to engage because it is holding the infant and you are turning that side of the body away from the attacker.  So as I say, some level of ambidexterity is important, even though it will never equal your dominant side.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 28, 2021)

I think both of you are hitting on it. You need to be able to defend with both sides of your body, against attacks from both sides of your body. So ignoring front/back dimensions, and connotations A for attacker, D for Defender, R for right, L for left....
1. AR -> DR
2. AR -> DL
3. AL -> DR
4. AL -> DL
That's four different possibilities that you've got to prepare for, and train for.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> At the dojo where I trained the longest, it was common practice when injured to find a way to train safely with that injury, just for the experience of learning to adapt. So, if I had a pulled muscle in my shoulder, I'd practice without that arm (either tucked in the belt, or just hanging limply). If I had a finger injury, I'd practice not using that hand (but still using the arm, so useful only for blocking and leverage).
> 
> I'll also add out of casual observation that it's a bit unpredictable what we will choose not to drop/put down in the moment. I've seen people try to catch stumbling kids but not be able to because some random (relatively unimportant) item was in their hand and their brain couldn't process both "drop that thing" and "catch that kid" at the same time.


I think this makes my point.  If that object in your arms is an infant, you don’t want to drop it.  You need to keep it safe.  Dropping it is dangerous, all by itself.  Dropping it in the middle of a violent attack could additionally leave it open to being stepped on or kicked or having a body land on it, further injurious.  This leaves you fighting back in a handicapped way. So again, some level of ambidexterity would be a good thing.

My earlier experience with Tracy Kenpo included a lot of self defense combinations designed against specific attacks.  The theory in most of the Parker-derived Kenpo lineages, is that since most people are right handed, the system is designed so that the right hand is used in a dominant way and the left hand is used in a supporting role, regardless of which attack you are defending.

But this meant that a defense against a left punch was a different choreography from a defense against a right punch, in order to stay consistent with that theory.  I, however, was in the habit of practicing all these combinations on both sides, doing the mirror image of the “right-handed” original, as a left handed.  So those combos designed against a right punch, I would switch and do the mirror image against a left, and vice-versa.  This made a lot more work for me, but on balance I felt it had merit.

I never considered it beyond that, it was simply what I did.  It wasn’t until I started having conversations with people online that I began to get pushback on that.  Some people feel that you don’t practice the mirror image, because it violates the “most people are right-handed” theory.  I don’t trust that theory to pull me through, however.  And I could never seem to get an answer to the simple question of, what about when you are holding an infant in your right arm, and your left is the only thing you can work with?  Nor could I get a satisfactory answer to the question, what about a left-handed person learning the system, for whom the entire system would be awkward if it were only practiced from the right-dominant perspective?  So I simply chose to view each defense combo as a defense against a punch, not specific to one side or the other.  You do both. 

Ambidexterity is a good thing, even though it will never be equal to your dominant side.  And the thought process that you need to engage in training that ambidexterity, is good for the brain.  I stand by my conclusion.

I continue to engage in this way with my current training.  Chinese forms are often lopsided, done from a “right-hand dominant” approach.  I also practice my forms on the left side.  I do this with empty hands and weapons.  I train weapons basic technique on both sides, as well as the forms.  I can do staff, spear, sword, and dao (big knife) forms either side.  No problem.  The left is not as clean as the right, but I am definitely functional.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I think this makes my point.  If that object in your arms is an infant, you don’t want to drop it.  You need to keep it safe.  Dropping it is dangerous, all by itself.  Dropping it in the middle of a violent attack could additionally leave it open to being stepped on or kicked or having a body land on it, further injurious.  This leaves you fighting back in a handicapped way. So again, some level of ambidexterity would be a good thing.
> 
> My earlier experience with Tracy Kenpo included a lot of self defense combinations designed against specific attacks.  The theory in most of the Parker-derived Kenpo lineages, is that since most people are right handed, the system is designed so that the right hand is used in a dominant way and the left hand is used in a supporting role, regardless of which attack you are defending.
> 
> ...


I personally just like the expanded options. I don’t think choreographed sequences are dependable as answers to specific attacks. The real benefit IMO is the flow from one movement to the next, so when an opening changes you have an answer. That approach calls for training drills more or less equally on both sides.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I personally just like the expanded options. I don’t think choreographed sequences are dependable as answers to specific attacks. The real benefit IMO is the flow from one movement to the next, so when an opening changes you have an answer. That approach calls for training drills more or less equally on both sides.


I agree, which is a big reason I no longer train Kenpo.  That, and the sheer number of them in the curriculum, it becomes very unwieldy as a system.  

But for what it was, the practice on both sides developed a lot of comfort with all kinds of movement.


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## WaterGal (Jan 29, 2021)

skribs said:


> There is one thing that worries me about this conversation: am I going to fail the Master course because I don't know how to do an Americana or ground-fighting position changes?  Since my goal is to become a Master and open my own school, I kind of feel like I'm wasting my time if I'm not going to qualify.



Mr WaterGal says the only physical techniques he was tested on were KKW forms. Then there was some testing on academic knowledge, like dan testing requirements, the history of Taekwondo and so forth, which they taught in the class. They were taught some self-defense techniques in the class, but weren't tested on them.


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## skribs (Jan 29, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> Mr WaterGal says the only physical techniques he was tested on were KKW forms. Then there was some testing on academic knowledge, like dan testing requirements, the history of Taekwondo and so forth, which they taught in the class. They were taught some self-defense techniques in the class, but weren't tested on them.


Out of curiosity, when did Mr. Watergal take the class?


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## WaterGal (Jan 30, 2021)

skribs said:


> Out of curiosity, when did Mr. Watergal take the class?



He went to the one you linked to earlier, actually. The one in Denver in 2017.


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## skribs (Jan 30, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> He went to the one you linked to earlier, actually. The one in Denver in 2017.



Interesting.  That's encouraging, because it's after the 2016 one that @andyjeffries mentioned earlier.  I was worried that he did his earlier (say 2010) and the course was updated with a new test after that.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 31, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> Mr WaterGal says the only physical techniques he was tested on were KKW forms. Then there was some testing on academic knowledge, like dan testing requirements, the history of Taekwondo and so forth, which they taught in the class. They were taught some self-defense techniques in the class, but weren't tested on them.



Just for the record it was the same on the course in Korea in 2013 and 2016, a couple of Kukkiwon forms in front of senior 9th Dan examiners and a multiple choice written test.


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## msmitht (Feb 25, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Looking to get Kukkiwon certified and be able to help my students do the same. A little background: I have trainined Chung Do Kwan TKD for 20 years and my school is primarily a CDK TKD school that incorporates concepts of other systems I currently train or have trained in the past. We focus on the practical side of martial arts and not so much on sport; we allow trips, takedowns, and punches to the head when free sparring above 7th gup. We follow Kukki poomsae (taegeuk) but incorporate some karate Kata from back in the early days of Chung Do Kwan such as Bassai (balsek), Empi (yumbee), and Kushanku (Kosokun). I have been certified By Chung Do Kwan up to 4th dan but never opted for Kukkiwon certification when it was offered for no reason other than the extra cost and I had no additional money. Due to what I felt was a growing cult mentality, declining standards, and a very closed mindset my school left the Chung Do Kwan last year. Now The only certificates I can offer my students are our own schools certificates (which seems to be fine for our students) but I would like to be able to offer our black belts the opportunity to get international recognition through Kukkiwon certification if they want it.
> 
> Hoping someone can help point me in the right direction.
> Thanks in advance


I was part of a school in theb80s/90s that was TKD but not ITF or KKW. We did hyungs and poomsae and both types of sparring. Was 5th dan then GM passed and locals wouldn't allow us at events anymore as black belts /poom cause we didn't have KKW certificates.
I met a GM who was running a supply store and he asked why not go to Korea and test. I had little money so he said " show me your poomsae and side kick". He immediately knew who my instructor was and sent in my application for 3rd dan with all supporting school certificates and a timeline of training plus list of teachers. 
3rd dan arrived in 2 months. 5 years later I went to a seminar and took a test at the end. Was 300+ the first day in Vegas. Were 214 on test day. Many left after their technique was criticized harsher than they were used too and many just were not up to scratch. Around 30 didn't even know their poomsae. 
There was an Olympian there who tested for her 6th dan and she was on!
Anyway I passed and then set up through KMS and started doing official tests (even before passing the dan/poom examiners course/instructors license course).
That was my story for TKD. My students liked it but it only a few were ever asked for it. Usually on college applications or training at college to prove rank.


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## dvcochran (Feb 25, 2021)

msmitht said:


> I was part of a school in theb80s/90s that was TKD but not ITF or KKW. We did hyungs and poomsae and both types of sparring. Was 5th dan then GM passed and locals wouldn't allow us at events anymore as black belts /poom cause we didn't have KKW certificates.
> I met a GM who was running a supply store and he asked why not go to Korea and test. I had little money so he said " show me your poomsae and side kick". He immediately knew who my instructor was and sent in my application for 3rd dan with all supporting school certificates and a timeline of training plus list of teachers.
> 3rd dan arrived in 2 months. 5 years later I went to a seminar and took a test at the end. Was 300+ the first day in Vegas. Were 214 on test day. Many left after their technique was criticized harsher than they were used too and many just were not up to scratch. Around 30 didn't even know their poomsae.
> There was an Olympian there who tested for her 6th dan and she was on!
> ...


If I may ask, who was your GM who passed? Just wondering if I knew him.


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## msmitht (May 23, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> If I may ask, who was your GM who passed? Just wondering if I knew him.


Baek, Moon Ku. Was a direct student of Hwang Kee and along with his brothers were seniors in moodukwan before war forced them south. He was at the 1st military base, with Choi, Hong Hi, as a teacher. He left for Colorado in late 50's early 60's to teach at rocky mountain TKD (Serrif) and promoted Serrif to 2nd Dan. Moved to Florida and taught at a JCC before settling in Ohio. He was there til he lost interest in teaching and sold his schools, opening a line of sandwich ships called Hero's. Moved to san diego in the 80's and owned a school, while others taught for him,  until his passing in 1997 from liver cancer. RIP


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## dvcochran (May 23, 2021)

msmitht said:


> Baek, Moon Ku. Was a direct student of Hwang Kee and along with his brothers were seniors in moodukwan before war forced them south. He was at the 1st military base, with Choi, Hong Hi, as a teacher. He left for Colorado in late 50's early 60's to teach at rocky mountain TKD (Serrif) and promoted Serrif to 2nd Dan. Moved to Florida and taught at a JCC before settling in Ohio. He was there til he lost interest in teaching and sold his schools, opening a line of sandwich ships called Hero's. Moved to san diego in the 80's and owned a school, while others taught for him,  until his passing in 1997 from liver cancer. RIP


I can’t say I knew him for certain . Sounds like he had moved out of the southeast before I started training.
I possibly met him in Florida if he was involved in the WT(F) sparring circuit in the ‘80’s.


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