# Two questions about Isshin Ryu & Isshinryu karate:



## Gaucho (Aug 4, 2021)

Firstly, do the terms describe the same art?  I would have thought so, but I have read suggestions that Isshin Ryu [with or without the hyphen] is a separate critter from Isshinryu.  

Secondly, it seems that Isshin Ryu is not very popular in Okinawa, but is doing quite well elsewhere, particularly in the USA.  Why is that?

Thanks for any wisdom.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2021)

I will say that I've been told by a mate who is fluent in Japanese that any parsing (like the difference between Isshin Ryu and Isshinryu) is not how the Japanese would write or expect it. They'd just cram it all together, so those two names would probably be identical in Japanese, even in hirigana or katakana.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 5, 2021)

Gaucho said:


> Firstly, do the terms describe the same art?  I would have thought so, but I have read suggestions that Isshin Ryu [with or without the hyphen] is a separate critter from Isshinryu.
> 
> Secondly, it seems that Isshin Ryu is not very popular in Okinawa, but is doing quite well elsewhere, particularly in the USA.  Why is that?
> 
> Thanks for any wisdom.



Whether Isshinryu, or any other style, is written as one word, two words or hyphenated, it's all the same when written in Romanized letters.  As for your second question:

_WHY IT'S POPULAR IN THE USA_
Founder Shimabuku Tatsuo was one of the first Okinawans to teach Americans on a large scale. These were military men stationed there after the Korean War and Shimabuku had a contract with the military.  So the majority of returning GI's were trained by him, and later on, by members of his family.  Many of these guys, and their students, opened dojos in the US and thus established Isshinryu as a very popular Okinawan style here.

_WHY IT'S NOT SO POPULAR IN OKINAWA_
The US military paid better than Okinawan students could, so it seems reasonable that this was the market the Shimabukus chose to concentrate on. As a result there were not too many native students.  Master Uezo's (Tatsuo's son-in-law) top student and hier, is Master Uechi Tsuyoshi. Recently, the Okinawan Prefecture government has recognized Isshinryu as a cultural treasure of traditional Okinawan karate.  This increase in formal status may help the style grow in its native land.


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## Gaucho (Aug 6, 2021)

Thanks very much.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 7, 2021)

Gaucho said:


> Firstly, do the terms describe the same art?  I would have thought so, but I have read suggestions that Isshin Ryu [with or without the hyphen] is a separate critter from Isshinryu.
> 
> Secondly, it seems that Isshin Ryu is not very popular in Okinawa, but is doing quite well elsewhere, particularly in the USA.  Why is that?
> 
> Thanks for any wisdom.


My sensei informed me that the hyphenated version is incorrect, but either one word or two words are fine.

Isshinryronin answered the other two questions very well, no need to add to that.

Edit: but I will. I believe that in Okinawa, like anywhere, there are politics in martial arts. When Master Shimabuku passed, there was a schism. Two branches were formed, under his son and his son-in-law. 

In addition, Isshinryu struggles to find acceptance within the traditional Okinawan styles, being a blend of Shorinryu and Gojuryu. Some Isshinryu karateka returned to one or the other after Master Shimabuku passed.

The recent addition of Isshinryu as noted by Isshinryuronin is also controversial because it is considered to be a variation of Shorinryu rather than a unique and distinct art.

Although there are plenty of political controversies in the USA over karate, we tend not to get too wrapped up in what some Okinawan karateka see as a purity thing. We tend to argue over other things.

Isshinryu is by many accounts nearly gone in Okinawa, but it is growing rapidly in Europe and especially in India, although I struggle sometimes to not comment negatively on the quality of instruction there. I'm glad to see it continue to be practiced.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 17, 2021)

Gaucho said:


> Firstly, do the terms describe the same art?  I would have thought so, but I have read suggestions that Isshin Ryu [with or without the hyphen] is a separate critter from Isshinryu.
> 
> Secondly, it seems that Isshin Ryu is not very popular in Okinawa, but is doing quite well elsewhere, particularly in the USA.  Why is that?
> 
> Thanks for any wisdom.





Gaucho said:


> Firstly, do the terms describe the same art?  I would have thought so, but I have read suggestions that Isshin Ryu [with or without the hyphen] is a separate critter from Isshinryu.
> 
> Secondly, it seems that Isshin Ryu is not very popular in Okinawa, but is doing quite well elsewhere, particularly in the USA.  Why is that?
> 
> Thanks for any wisdom.


Hello.. They are one and the same. That difference you are noting may be due to the preference of the head of the school lineage. One of Shimabukuru Sensei's black belts may have used the hyphenation to differentiate his lineage from one of his fellow classmates who are also teaching. Shimabukuru Sensei didn't have many, or any Okinawan students. His pupils were mostly, or entirely American servicemen in Okinawa. This is why it would be more popular abroad.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 17, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> Hello.. They are one and the same. That difference you are noting may be due to the preference of the head of the school lineage. One of Shimabukuru Sensei's black belts may have used the hyphenation to differentiate his lineage from one of his fellow classmates who are also teaching. Shimabukuru Sensei didn't have many, or any Okinawan students. His pupils were mostly, or entirely American servicemen in Okinawa. This is why it would be more popular abroad.


Master Shimabuku had many Okinawan students in addition to his students who were US Marines. It is true that it has not flourished in Okinawa.

However, there are many Isshinryu students in Europe, India, and Canada, among other countries, and he never taught any students from those countries directly.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 18, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Master Shimabuku had many Okinawan students in addition to his students who were US Marines. It is true that it has not flourished in Okinawa.
> 
> However, there are many Isshinryu students in Europe, India, and Canada, among other countries, and he never taught any students from those countries directly.


Thanks for that correction. Is there a list available where I can learn more about his Okinawan students? I would love to see who they were and where they went to teach.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 18, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> Thanks for that correction. Is there a list available where I can learn more about his Okinawan students? I would love to see who they were and where they went to teach.


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## kitkatninja (Oct 3, 2021)

My understanding is that Isshin Ryu & Isshinryu karate are the same - it's just the way it's written by different clubs in different areas...

However Ishinryu karate (note the 1 s), is a different art.  This was created by Ticky Donovan in 1973 in the UK (England).  A blend of Kyokushinkai, Wado-ryu and Shotokan karate.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 3, 2021)

kitkatninja said:


> My understanding is that Isshin Ryu & Isshinryu karate are the same - it's just the way it's written by different clubs in different areas...
> 
> However Ishinryu karate (note the 1 s), is a different art.  This was created by Ticky Donovan in 1973 in the UK (England).  A blend of Kyokushinkai, Wado-ryu and Shotokan karate.


I have never heard of Mr. Donovan or "Ishinryu" and, being curious about the name of his style, did some Google research.  This is my impression based_ solely_ from the info I found on line:

He was a superior tournament competitor, and had training in a few Japanese MA.  He was an excellent marketer with fame and great recognition mostly in England.

He was born in 1947 and in 1973 _created his own style at the age of 26 with only 8 years of MA study, _having started in 1965 !!!!????  (WTF?)

This leads me to believe that he merely capitalized on his tournament success, rather than spending decades of deep MA study and practice as would be expected of a Master creating his own system (even Chuck Norris didn't have the _hubris_ to do this till later in his career.) As I conceded, Mr. Donovan was an excellent marketer and self-promoter.

By 1973, Okinawan I*ss*hinryu was well established in the USA.  Why he chose to "copy" the name of a current popular style for his own is questionable. His style has _*no*_ relation to it, other than the name and its meaning.

While I may not approve of his "master" status and the creation of his own style with such little experience, or his choice of style name, he is entitled to the success he earned by his efforts in tournaments (both as a competitor and as a coach) as well as his marketing/promotion acumen.


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## Gaucho (Oct 19, 2021)

That's all very interesting and explanatory.   Thanks to all.


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## BrendanF (Nov 8, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> By 1973, Okinawan I*ss*hinryu was well established in the USA. Why he chose to "copy" the name of a current popular style for his own is questionable. His style has _*no*_ relation to it, other than the name and its meaning.



Isshin is an old term with broad implications.  There has been a mainland Japanese Isshin ryu for a few centuries at least.









						Isshin-ryū kusarigamajutsu - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## punisher73 (Nov 14, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> Thanks for that correction. Is there a list available where I can learn more about his Okinawan students? I would love to see who they were and where they went to teach.



As others have said. Isshinryu's popularity mainly came from the US serviceman who brought it back to the US and started to teach it.  They were rough and tumble guys who did very well in tournaments to spread its effectiveness and gain interest.

I think in Okinawa they tend to like tradition and lineage and so after Shimabuku's passing tended to go back to the more established Shorinryu lineages.  To get a list of those students who stayed with Isshinryu and such, you would almost have to look at one of the Isshinryu organizations and see who ran the dojo(s) there.

Recently, in the last few years.  Tsuyoshi Uechi has been really working towards brining back Isshinryu in Okinawa.  He is a part of the CFA tours as a guest instructor when they come there.  Uechi Sensei has worked a lot with AJ Advincula on how the katas were performed by Shimabuku.

Even Jesse "the karate nerd" filmed a segment training with him.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 14, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> As others have said. Isshinryu's popularity mainly came from the US serviceman who brought it back to the US and started to teach it.  They were rough and tumble guys who did very well in tournaments to spread its effectiveness and gain interest.
> 
> I think in Okinawa they tend to like tradition and lineage and so after Shimabuku's passing tended to go back to the more established Shorinryu lineages.  To get a list of those students who stayed with Isshinryu and such, you would almost have to look at one of the Isshinryu organizations and see who ran the dojo(s) there.
> 
> ...


Isshinryu was being taught by Master Uezu to US Marines when I was stationed there in 1983. It was still popular with Marines, although Shorinryu was also popular.  Everyone I knew referred to Isshinryu as Marine Corps karate. 

Master Uezu was a Japanese Security Guard on Camp Foster when I was a Marine MP. I worked with him. I did not study karate on Okinawa, which is a shame. He showed me some tricks, like the unbendable arm. I like him very much.

It was many decades later that I decided to study karate and fortunately found a nearby Isshinryu dojo that whose Sensei was a direct student of two first-generation students of Master Shimabuku.  I've been very blessed to train here for so long, a 3rd generation student.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 14, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> I think in Okinawa they tend to like tradition and lineage and so after Shimabuku's passing tended to go back to the more established Shorinryu lineages.


This is true, including his own little brother, Eizo, who, from what I've seen, was an amazing martial artist with great physical ability.  He studied with the same masters as big brother, Tatsuo, especially shorinryu's Kyan.  While he adopted isshinryu, when Tatsuo passed, Eizo indeed went back to shorinryu and became a noted master in his own right.

Eizo may have followed Tatsuo in isshinryu out of filial/personal loyalty.  After Tatsuo, there was no real hold on him.  Tatsuo was well respected as a true master on Okinawan karate and commanded his share of loyalty.  Tatsuo's son, Kichiro, inherited the family business, although Angi Uezo (who was the son-in-law) was considered by many (including me) the superior karateka.  This caused a huge rift in isshinryu.

I trained with Kichiro when he visited the US and went out with him and my sensei for drinks in Hollywood.  During our short time together, he did not impress me with his karate or charisma.  Out of loyalty to Tatsuo, my sensei threw in with him, but he was not familiar with Angi at the time.  Had he been so, I'm sure he would have associated with him instead.

I know Angi Uezo from his videos and must say he influenced the way I do kata. He had his own individual way of moving and power generation.  I know someone who knows him for years and has much respect for him.  Angi's top student and heir, Tsuyoshi Uechi, is also well respected in Okinawa and has a good following around the world, and has devoted himself to following the old ways (yet, he is open minded) and rebuilding the style in Okinawa.  I am part of his lineage now.

So, isshinryu is full of conflicting family interests and senses of loyalty amongst its followers.  Throw in some violence and love interests, it would make a good "Samurai" movie.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 14, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> This is true, including his own little brother, Eizo, who, from what I've seen, was an amazing martial artist with great physical ability.  He studied with the same masters as big brother, Tatsuo, especially shorinryu's Kyan.  While he adopted isshinryu, when Tatsuo passed, Eizo indeed went back to shorinryu and became a noted master in his own right.
> 
> Eizo may have followed Tatsuo in isshinryu out of filial/personal loyalty.  After Tatsuo, there was no real hold on him.  Tatsuo was well respected as a true master on Okinawan karate and commanded his share of loyalty.  Tatsuo's son, Kichiro, inherited the family business, although Angi Uezo (who was the son-in-law) was considered by many (including me) the superior karateka.  This caused a huge rift in isshinryu.
> 
> ...


I haven't formally met Kichiro, but he called me a disgrace to karate once. I was competing in an IWKA tournament in Indianapolis and sparring with a guy I was pretty evenly matched with. It was ippon sparring but the judge didn't call any points, so we kept going at each other, hammer and tongs, right in front of the podium. Kichiro came over and personally stopped the bout and chewed us all out. I'm UIKA, it didn't bother me. Kinda funny really.


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## punisher73 (Nov 14, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I haven't formally met Kichiro, but he called me a disgrace to karate once. I was competing in an IWKA tournament in Indianapolis and sparring with a guy I was pretty evenly matched with. It was ippon sparring but the judge didn't call any points, so we kept going at each other, hammer and tongs, right in front of the podium. Kichiro came over and personally stopped the bout and chewed us all out. I'm UIKA, it didn't bother me. Kinda funny really.



I know there were a lot of politics and things happening towards the end of Tatsuo's life that most of the first generation students refused to follow him.  Also, most of them studied Isshinryu for a longer period of time than Kichiro.


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