# I've seen Kenpo/Kempo before and it's all the same



## Andrew Evans (Jun 14, 2005)

Don't you hate it when the below scenario occurs?

person: What kind of martial art you practice? 

you: Kempo (or Kenpo)

person: Or yes, I know what kempo is. I've seen ______ kempo before. It's all the same.

Don't you hate it when they lump all of us together? After Dillman's Kempo is a hell of a lot different than Parker's Kenpo.

My question is what do you do? How do you respond?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 14, 2005)

I actually had this conversation the other day. This guy says "all kem/npo looks the same".

So, sez I, "You can't get two people in the *same *school to do agree on doing a technique the same way...how is it you've managed to get *all* the people from *all* the schools, and catch them doing *ANYTHING* alike?"


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## pesilat (Jun 14, 2005)

Andrew Evans said:
			
		

> Don't you hate it when the below scenario occurs?
> 
> person: What kind of martial art you practice?
> 
> ...



LOL. Well, this isn't specifically related to Kenpo/Kempo but, then, neither is the scenario 

We had one student who came in and in his first class we did a drill - hubud lubud from FMA if any of you are familiar with it. The next class, my instructor paired this student with me and said, "Work on hubud." He told me which aspects to focus on and I got ready to go to work. This student - in his 2nd class and done this drill once - said, "Oh. I already know this drill."

My instuctor said, "You don't know anything in here until I tell you that you know it. Shut up and get to work." It should probably be pointed out that this student was my instructor's teenage son who, of course, thought he knew everything already. My instructor isn't normally that blunt with people in their second class - it usually takes at least 5 classes for him to warm up to them 

Anyway, I know this doesn't directly relate to what you're talking about but it's a funny story that you reminded me of.

One that I get - that is more related - is when I say I train in FMA and someone says, "Oh. That's stickfighting, right? Yeah. I've seen that."

How I respond depends on a lot of different factors. But, primarily, it boils down to whether I care about the person enough to try to enlighten him/her. If I don't really know them and don't really care whether they have it or not, I say, "Yeah. We stick fight." and I walk away. If, on the other hand, it's someone that I like (or at least respect) then I might try to explain that it's way more than just sticks.

But I find that, usually, someone with that attitude isn't worth my time so I just shake my head and walk away.

Mike


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## dianhsuhe (Jun 14, 2005)

"You can't get two people in the same school to do agree on doing a technique the same way...how is it you've managed to get all the people from all the schools, and catch them doing ANYTHING alike?"
__________________

That is VERY funny and true!

I just laugh if someone says that... It is like saying Ford and Chevy are the same thing, or all Doctors are the same etc.. 

Even Kempo/Kenpo students sometimes think we are all the same-

I was shocked while attending the Internationals in Long Beach one year where upon entering the ring for brown-belt forms I was asked by several EPAK folks if the style I practice comes from them (Ed Parker), none of them had heard of Kara-Ho Kempo.  I simpy told them we are branches of the same tree, I thought it was funny though... But then I have always been into the history of it all and enjoy reading about MANY styles because it is interesting overall---so I can usually recognize other styles.



Cheers everyone!
james


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## pesilat (Jun 15, 2005)

dianhsuhe said:
			
		

> "You can't get two people in the same school to do agree on doing a technique the same way...how is it you've managed to get all the people from all the schools, and catch them doing ANYTHING alike?"
> __________________
> 
> That is VERY funny and true!
> ...



Ironically, it all depends on what level you're talking about. For instance, one of my favorite movie lines is when Anthony Hopkins asks Antonio Banderas if he knows how to use a sword. Banderas replies, "Yes. The pointy end goes in the other guy."

This is either the statement of a fool or a master. The fool sees it as being something easy to do. The master sees it as a simple concept not so easily accomplished. But the phrasing is the same.

At some level, the statement "all Kenpo/Kempo are the same" is an accurate statement. If, by "the same", you mean that they all deal with punching and kicking  But, again, if stated by a fool it's an erroneous statement because it comes from a foundation of ignorance and arrogant assumption. If stated by a master, it's profound because it comes from a foundation of enlightenment and experience.

Mike


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## Bill Lear (Jun 15, 2005)

pesilat said:
			
		

> Ironically, it all depends on what level you're talking about. For instance, one of my favorite movie lines is when Anthony Hopkins asks Antonio Banderas if he knows how to use a sword. Banderas replies, "Yes. The pointy end goes in the other guy."
> 
> This is either the statement of a fool or a master. The fool sees it as being something easy to do. The master sees it as a simple concept not so easily accomplished. But the phrasing is the same.
> 
> ...


Mr. Casto,

I like the way you think, and agree with you 100%! It's kind of funny that things come full circle like that in nearly everything we experience in life.

:asian:


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## pesilat (Jun 15, 2005)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Mr. Casto,
> 
> I like the way you think, and agree with you 100%! It's kind of funny that things come full circle like that in nearly everything we experience in life.
> 
> :asian:



Thanks 

Yes, it's something I've noticed over and over again. I've been exposed to a lot of different arts/systems/styles over the years and continue to travel and train and get exposed to new stuff frequently. One thing I've noticed over and over again is how much everything starts to look alike if you take a broad enough view.

I've seen people from very different backgrounds arrive at the same type of material - different details and flavors of course but still very similar.

Two of my instructors were teaching at a seminar I hosted. One is named Ken and the other is Joe (forgoing titles since they're not relevant to the discussion at hant). Ken is a Kali and Silat man and Joe does his own system called Shen Chuan which has its roots in Parker Kenpo, Daito-Ryu Aikijujitsu, and Hapkido (though it also has influences from a bunch of other places including some Chinese, Thai, etc. but nothing more than a passing exposure to any Silat). Joe was teaching and a friend of mine leaned over to Ken and said, "Man. That a lot like Silat."

Ken said, "In fact, it's equivalent to a very high expression of Silat. I just can't figure out how he got that expression from his background."

Poor old Bruce gets quoted way too much for anyone's good but ... "Before I started training in the arts, a punch was a kick and a kick was a kick. After I started training in the arts, a punch was more than a punch; a kick was more than a kick. After I understood the arts, a punch was a punch and a kick was a kick."

The best analogy I've ever heard for this was someone on a discussion board comparing it to driving a car. "When I was a kid watching my parents drive, they were just driving. When I started learning to drive, it was so much more. It was a gas pedal, a brake, a clutch, a gear shift, a steering wheel, a turn signal, oops, that's the wipers ... Now, I just drive - usually with only one hand on the wheel."

The more I see, the more it all starts looking the same.

Yes, there are differences. Especially in the details and in the flavors. But there's a finite number of ways that the human body can move, be moved, or be affected. When we limit these, as we do in MA, to things that can protect us or harm others that number becomes even more finite. That means that there is a finite number of principles that all MA draw from. Consequently, any MA that uses joint locks will use the same principles for locking as any other MA that uses joint locks. Same with striking. Same with grappling. Same with weapons.

I see it like a big pond where we go to draw water from to make our individual teas. We each have a section of the pond that we favor. And we each use a different brand name of tea and have different preferences for what type of tea and how it's prepared. So the end product of your tea will be very different than my tea. But both fulfill the same basic purpose and are made from water from the same pool.

When I cross train I always try to find the similarities. I don't have to look for the differences - they're usually staring me in the face. But the similarities are often harder to spot but I find that they are where I get my most productivity. If I can tie it back to something I already know then I can learn and understand the new material quicker. Similarities in material deepen my understanding of that material - or, more specifically, of the principles that form the foundation of that material. Differences in material broaden my understanding of that material and of the principles that underly it. If the material is completely new then it broadens my overall knowledge of MA. With this mindset, I've never found any downside to cross training as long as I view it as supplemental to my core.

Boy ... I took a huge tangent there, didn't I?

Hope it was worth the trip for you guys to follow along 

Mike


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## MJS (Jun 15, 2005)

Andrew Evans said:
			
		

> Don't you hate it when the below scenario occurs?
> 
> person: What kind of martial art you practice?
> 
> ...



Many times things may seem like they are the same, but there are differences.  I'll usually make an attempt to explain the differences to them so they'll have a better understanding.

Mike


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## Michael Billings (Jun 15, 2005)

Excellent post pesilat, the only thing I would add is a quote I have used on several occassions, "they don't even know what they don't know."  It is amazing the perspective 2 or 3 decades can give you, especially when you have really been around the block with an empty cup, (and there is a different art or teacher in every building on the block).


 -Michael


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## Ray (Jun 15, 2005)

Andrew Evans said:
			
		

> My question is what do you do? How do you respond?


I don't respond to a lot of statements that other people make.  I don't see the point.  

But I enjoy seeing other people do kenpo.  There are some amazing differences.


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## pesilat (Jun 15, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Excellent post pesilat, the only thing I would add is a quote I have used on several occassions, "they don't even know what they don't know."  It is amazing the perspective 2 or 3 decades can give you, especially when you have really been around the block with an empty cup, (and there is a different art or teacher in every building on the block).
> 
> 
> -Michael



Couldn't agree more.

From my perspective - i.e.: the ability to go to a macroscopic view or a microscopic view - I often just agree with people when they say things are the same or different because I can see where both are true. Whether they understand it or not - as you put it, "they don't even know what they don't know" - is often irrelevant to me 

At a macroscopic level everything is the same. Movement is movement - whether it's walking, running, falling, flying, fighting, etc. And there are lessons to be learned from that perspective.

At a microscopic level everything is different. Take the exact same technique and have two people do it and if you look close enough there will be differences. Even though they trained for the same length of time under the same person and neither had any outside (MA) influences. And there are lessons to be learned from that perspective.

When I'm watching someone do something, I try to remain as aware of possible of that whole spectrum of perspective.

That way I see the similarities to what I already know _and_ the differences. This apparent dichotomy is actually two sides of the same coin and by putting the whole coin in my pocket, so to speak, I tend to get a lot more out of a training session than someone who only looks at one part of it.

It's all yin-yang under different guises 

Another funny story that relates to the topic of perspective - though it stemmed from a linguistic misunderstanding. I was at a seminar with GM Cacoy Canete. GM Cacoy is the best stick wielder I've ever personally seen. He's incredible - of course, part of that has to do with the fact that he's been training in Eskrima for nearly 80 years at this poing. Since he's also trained in Japanese arts (Judo and Aikido) I knew he'd be familiar with the term and concept of "uke". I asked if there was a term equivalent to the Japanese term for "uke" that he used in FMA - either from the Cebuano dialect or from Tagalog. He paused and thought for a moment. Then he said, "Yes." and walked away.

From his perspective, he'd answered my question. I didn't ask him what the equivalent term was. I asked him if there was one.

And, of course, I felt it would be rude to chase after him and try to rephrase the question so I still don't know what an equivalent term might be. I just know that there is one (or, given the linguistic situation in the PI, probably more than one).

Mike


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## Michael Billings (Jun 15, 2005)

LOL

 Maybe someone here can answer that for you.  Funny story Mike, and I agree about the "movement."  As you know Kenpo Guys, especially Mr. Parker's lineage, teach by analogy a lot, (e.g. Dennis Conatser is great at this).  I have found, when teaching another athelete, if I can glean some knowledge of their "world view" regarding their sport, then I can liken a piece of it to movement within a Kenpo technique.  Even if it just one move, it help begin establishing a common base from which to work ... and I see that as part of the teacher's role and responsibility. 

 -Michael


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## pesilat (Jun 15, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> LOL
> 
> Maybe someone here can answer that for you.  Funny story Mike, and I agree about the "movement."  As you know Kenpo Guys, especially Mr. Parker's lineage, teach by analogy a lot, (e.g. Dennis Conatser is great at this).  I have found, when teaching another athelete, if I can glean some knowledge of their "world view" regarding their sport, then I can liken a piece of it to movement within a Kenpo technique.  Even if it just one move, it help begin establishing a common base from which to work ... and I see that as part of the teacher's role and responsibility.
> 
> -Michael



Yup. I use that a lot, too. It's one of the things I consider particularly useful about the diverse arts/systems that I've been exposed to. I'm a long way from being what anyone would consider, for instance, a Wing Chun player. But because I've had a fair amount of exposure to it over the years, I'm able to tie some of what I do to WC using terminology and analogy when I'm dealing with a WC person. I've also been able to do the same with things outside the MA. For instance, if I know someone is a computer programmer (something I've been involved in to one degree or another for nearly 25 years) then I can sometimes tie my analogies back to that. 

However, I've also found that it can be a double-edged sword. I was working with a WC guy once and I said, "Well, for me trapping is a way of bridging into my Silat. For instance, the double Pak Sao sets me up for a Sapu Luar." I then did it. But because I had tied it into WC, it put him into that mindframe and he tunnel-visioned on it so he completely missed the footwork I used that, in conjunction with the trapping, put me in position for a sweep. When he hit the ground, his eyes bugged out and he said, "What was that!?" He looked like he'd just learned that the earth was round. I explained it to him and slowly showed him the footwork that I had tied to the trapping. He was so flabbergasted by the experience that none of it sank in and, unfortunately, he never came back. I think I intimidated him.

I think I've gotten better and presenting things since that time (that was several years ago) but I still encounter situations similar to that where I have to be careful not to lose people and leave them bewildered because that tends to scare them off.

Mike


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## KenpoDave (Jun 15, 2005)

pesilat said:
			
		

> Ironically, it all depends on what level you're talking about. For instance, one of my favorite movie lines is when Anthony Hopkins asks Antonio Banderas if he knows how to use a sword. Banderas replies, "Yes. The pointy end goes in the other guy."



Excellent post!  I find it wise to ask a person to elaborate on their statement a bit.  Sometimes the definition must be "tailored" to their perspective.


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## Doc (Jun 16, 2005)

Andrew Evans said:
			
		

> Don't you hate it when the below scenario occurs?
> 
> person: What kind of martial art you practice?
> 
> ...


I tap them on the cheek, and when they wake up, I ask them if they'd seen that before.


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## Seabrook (Jun 16, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> I tap them on the cheek, and when they wake up, I ask them if they'd seen that before.


I learned this abbreviation from Angela McNamee, one of Larry Tatum's 3rd Degree Black Belts, and it applies here:

ROFLMAO!

That was too funny Doc.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Doc (Jun 16, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I learned this abbreviation from Angela McNamee, one of Larry Tatum's 3rd Degree Black Belts, and it applies here:
> 
> ROFLMAO!
> 
> ...


You know Mr. Seabrook I was only half kidding, (on my father's side), and have actually done that before, with their permission of course. I enjoy interacting with people who THINK they have seen or know what Kenpo is all about. I did a Silat Camp last weekend and had plenty of subjects. I had a tough guy who teaches "Jailhouse Rock" who said he had never been knocked out before. I got him twice and am awaiting the video of the event. He now says, "Kenpo Rocks."


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## Seabrook (Jun 17, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> You know Mr. Seabrook I was only half kidding, (on my father's side), and have actually done that before, with their permission of course. I enjoy interacting with people who THINK they have seen or know what Kenpo is all about. I did a Silat Camp last weekend and had plenty of subjects. I had a tough guy who teaches "Jailhouse Rock" who said he had never been knocked out before. I got him twice and am awaiting the video of the event. He now says, "Kenpo Rocks."


That's awesome Doc....

On a side note, I FINALLY had the opportunity to meet and have a conversation with Ed Parker Jr. at the LTKKA camp on Sunday. Is he still training with you? He's such a well-spoken and humble man, and I look forward to meeting with him again. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## evenflow1121 (Jun 17, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I actually had this conversation the other day. This guy says "all kem/npo looks the same".
> 
> So, sez I, "You can't get two people in the *same *school to do agree on doing a technique the same way...how is it you've managed to get *all* the people from *all* the schools, and catch them doing *ANYTHING* alike?"


That is a very good observation, you are absolutely right, variations "vary" through schools within the same lineage and even students within the same school.


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## Simon Curran (Jun 17, 2005)

Here in Denmark, martial artists in general are definately the minority, and Kenpo is pretty much un-heard of, bearing this in mind, I have numerous times heard it stated that "fight sport is no use in a real fight" (rough translation, the Danish equivalent equates all martial arts to th lowest common sporting denominator)
 I just laugh inwardly at the innocence of some people, at 6ft 2 and 230 lbs, I am the small guy around here, but the difference is that most Danes wouldn't know a violent conflict if it came along and bit them on the nose...


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## Doc (Jun 17, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> That's awesome Doc....
> 
> On a side note, I FINALLY had the opportunity to meet and have a conversation with Ed Parker Jr. at the LTKKA camp on Sunday. Is he still training with you? He's such a well-spoken and humble man, and I look forward to meeting with him again.
> 
> ...


Edmund and I still get together from time to time, (we just saw Star Wars when it opened), but most of his time is devoted to Family and his artwork as his primary focus. As most know he is a phenomenal artist, but that excellence comes at a price of significant unyielding dedication and passion that leaves little time for anything else. But man is he good. Have you seen the latest generation of his Kenpo Kards? After seeing the first batch, I didn't think they could get any better, but I should have known. Edmund always gets better at whatever he does. There isn't a mediocre bone in his body. Chekumout!


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## still learning (Jun 19, 2005)

Hello,  Isn't it great we are all the same?   with the same difference's?  It a good thing we all live in the SAME world. .....Aloha


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## Andrew Evans (Sep 28, 2005)

I think I figured it out...

Kenpo/Kempo, whatever you call it means one thing when you get down to it--

 :whip:   SELF-DEFENSE   :whip:


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 29, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> I tap them on the cheek, and when they wake up, I ask them if they'd seen that before.


 Yanno I could swear I have seen that before somewhere Doc...


 *Buzz in de brain*


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## Doc (Sep 29, 2005)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Yanno I could swear I have seen that before somewhere Doc...
> 
> 
> *Buzz in de brain*


Wasun't me. Admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof.


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 30, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Wasun't me. Admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof.


 Will that get me out of a speeding ticket?


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## Doc (Sep 30, 2005)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Will that get me out of a speeding ticket?


Not in LA County.


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## IWishToLearn (Oct 2, 2005)

Damn dirty CHiPpies waiting on the downhill slant of the grapevine.

 *kicks out the leg as he walks by the chippie ranting under his breath*


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