# Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?



## Bullsherdog

Because of their frequent defeats in the early years of MMA especially in the first UFC tournament and because they failed to get much representation up until recently, traditional martial arts are now frequently bashed for creating ineffective fighting and using BS training and methods. In particular most schools of karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Kung Fu gets the most hack for this.

However I'm watching the documentary TV series Human Weapon...... I am lovely shocked by how some of these traditional styles frequently criticized in the current martial arts climate have HARDCORE TRAINING in their highest quality school. The Tae Kwon Do episode had medium level practitioners smashing through stacks of hard floor tiles with one open hand strike, the karate episode shown incredible jumping and acrobatic training, the kung fu episodes shown stuff like carrying heavy objects while brisk walking, and the Ninjitsu Episode showed walking across wooden poles on a a pond and climbing buildings.

In addition some of the showcased techniques are lovely insane and can literally break someone's ribs or smashed a skull cracked open if done correctly. At least KO an opponent VERY FAST.

In addition all the fighters were muscular as hell, at worst skinny with no fat on their body and the strongest people can pass off for lighter classes of bodybuilders or looked like powerlifters.

So I am curious. When the first UFC was taking place, most of the traditional martial artists came from the quite dumbed down Western schools that did focused mainly on forms and light sparring and did not do much physical conditioning (most even lacked basic light 10 lbs dumbells). The traditional martial artists shown were often extremely out of shape being skinny and frail looking and obese. In addition even the execution their kicks and punches were pretty sloppy looking even by the low standards of UFC at the time.

So much of the traditional martial arts were beaten within seconds and for the next UFC tournaments, the pattern would repeat until the late 90s and early 2000s when Western traditional martial artists began not only to incorporate other styles but even actually take their strictly traditional martial arts training seriously that they actually hit heavy bags and do live sparring rather than the kata based and points sparring so common in Western TMA schools.

Now at least some techniques of TKD, Karate, and even Chinese styles have proven effective enough that fighters have made them standard arsenal in MMA.

However as I said the Human Weapon series shows a lot of the old school traditional martial arts schools back in Asia have some very hardass training. Further personal research I doneshows that while the average practitioners spar with limitations (such as no punches to the head in Kyokushin training), in dojo vs dojo and style vs style bouts all bets are off and high ranking students and senseis pretty much fight no holds barred like MMA, in some cases even removing MMA's limitations and allowing stomping opponents on the ground, etc.

Hell in Asia's own local MMA organizations and tournaments, they have traditional martial artists fighting quite full contact and realistically to UFC standards in an MMA style match decades before UFC came! While its not strictly MMA, Muhammad Ali had to forfeit a mockup match in a shootboxing rules because his opponent was doing serious damage to his legs with kicks.

So I am curious why from the 90s up until the 2010s, the traditional martial artists (who did not mix in boxing and other styles) that represented Asian styles in UFC were often mediocre quality or worse? Why didn't we get guy as strong and well trained as Mas Oyama or Korean tae kwon do practitioners who's served in Korean special forces?

I still think they would lose due to the rules but at least they're a proper representation of traditional martial arts in a so-called "ultimate fighting championship" style tournament rather than the terrible practitioners we got in the West!

I mean since the Gracies had the means to, why couldn't they invite fighters directly from Japan, Korea, China, etc to get the cream of the crop in the first UFC?

In addition I notice Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu suffered the worst criticism and for a while back karate did too. At least TKD is now getting more respect thanks to George St-Pierre and other fighters who specialized or started with TKD now having good performances in UFC. Karate already got skilled practitioners who won belts after learning to incorporate boxing and other styles in. However Kung Fu still suffers from this stigma badly.

How come these three styles were the most popular to attack especially during the 90s (and today Kung Fu still gets so much criticism)?


----------



## Headhunter

Who cares? I'm sure you'll find a TV show to answer the question for you


----------



## drop bear

Bullsherdog said:


> Because of their frequent defeats in the early years of MMA especially in the first UFC tournament and because they failed to get much representation up until recently, traditional martial arts are now frequently bashed for creating ineffective fighting and using BS training and methods. In particular most schools of karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Kung Fu gets the most hack for this.
> 
> However I'm watching the documentary TV series Human Weapon...... I am lovely shocked by how some of these traditional styles frequently criticized in the current martial arts climate have HARDCORE TRAINING in their highest quality school. The Tae Kwon Do episode had medium level practitioners smashing through stacks of hard floor tiles with one open hand strike, the karate episode shown incredible jumping and acrobatic training, the kung fu episodes shown stuff like carrying heavy objects while brisk walking, and the Ninjitsu Episode showed walking across wooden poles on a a pond and climbing buildings.
> 
> In addition some of the showcased techniques are lovely insane and can literally break someone's ribs or smashed a skull cracked open if done correctly. At least KO an opponent VERY FAST.
> 
> In addition all the fighters were muscular as hell, at worst skinny with no fat on their body and the strongest people can pass off for lighter classes of bodybuilders or looked like powerlifters.
> 
> So I am curious. When the first UFC was taking place, most of the traditional martial artists came from the quite dumbed down Western schools that did focused mainly on forms and light sparring and did not do much physical conditioning (most even lacked basic light 10 lbs dumbells). The traditional martial artists shown were often extremely out of shape being skinny and frail looking and obese. In addition even the execution their kicks and punches were pretty sloppy looking even by the low standards of UFC at the time.
> 
> So much of the traditional martial arts were beaten within seconds and for the next UFC tournaments, the pattern would repeat until the late 90s and early 2000s when Western traditional martial artists began not only to incorporate other styles but even actually take their strictly traditional martial arts training seriously that they actually hit heavy bags and do live sparring rather than the kata based and points sparring so common in Western TMA schools.
> 
> Now at least some techniques of TKD, Karate, and even Chinese styles have proven effective enough that fighters have made them standard arsenal in MMA.
> 
> However as I said the Human Weapon series shows a lot of the old school traditional martial arts schools back in Asia have some very hardass training. Further personal research I doneshows that while the average practitioners spar with limitations (such as no punches to the head in Kyokushin training), in dojo vs dojo and style vs style bouts all bets are off and high ranking students and senseis pretty much fight no holds barred like MMA, in some cases even removing MMA's limitations and allowing stomping opponents on the ground, etc.
> 
> Hell in Asia's own local MMA organizations and tournaments, they have traditional martial artists fighting quite full contact and realistically to UFC standards in an MMA style match decades before UFC came! While its not strictly MMA, Muhammad Ali had to forfeit a mockup match in a shootboxing rules because his opponent was doing serious damage to his legs with kicks.
> 
> So I am curious why from the 90s up until the 2010s, the traditional martial artists (who did not mix in boxing and other styles) that represented Asian styles in UFC were often mediocre quality or worse? Why didn't we get guy as strong and well trained as Mas Oyama or Korean tae kwon do practitioners who's served in Korean special forces?
> 
> I still think they would lose due to the rules but at least they're a proper representation of traditional martial arts in a so-called "ultimate fighting championship" style tournament rather than the terrible practitioners we got in the West!
> 
> I mean since the Gracies had the means to, why couldn't they invite fighters directly from Japan, Korea, China, etc to get the cream of the crop in the first UFC?
> 
> In addition I notice Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu suffered the worst criticism and for a while back karate did too. At least TKD is now getting more respect thanks to George St-Pierre and other fighters who specialized or started with TKD now having good performances in UFC. Karate already got skilled practitioners who won belts after learning to incorporate boxing and other styles in. However Kung Fu still suffers from this stigma badly.
> 
> How come these three styles were the most popular to attack especially during the 90s (and today Kung Fu still gets so much criticism)?



Because  this.


----------



## drop bear

Look it is basically like this. When people tell you it is the individual and the training not the style.

They are basically wrong.

Imagine I find an athletic guy and i enter him in to a triathlon. Swimming, running, bicycle.

And I take him to an expert who trains him every day. And he gets fit and strong.

But I train him in horse riding.

Because he has done the wrong style. He probably won't do as well as he could have had he trained swimming, running or bicycle.

So just because a fit guy can break a piece of wood. Doesn't make him a UFC fighter.


----------



## Headhunter

Lol I haven't read all this nonsense but I did see you call gsp a taekwondo guy.....lol gsp has never trained taekwondo in his life. He's a black belt in karate not taekwondo


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf




----------



## dvcochran

It is pretty to find what ever you want to read on the internet. You are making the story fit you agenda. You have written a lot to say a little.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Doesn't Georges St-Pierre have a background in Kyokushin Karate


----------



## Xue Sheng

Top 5 Traditional Martial Artists in MMA Today


----------



## Buka

Bullsherdog said:


> Because of their frequent defeats in the early years of MMA especially in the first UFC tournament and because they failed to get much representation up until recently, traditional martial arts are now frequently bashed for creating ineffective fighting and using BS training and methods. In particular most schools of karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Kung Fu gets the most hack for this.
> 
> However I'm watching the documentary TV series Human Weapon...... I am lovely shocked by how some of these traditional styles frequently criticized in the current martial arts climate have HARDCORE TRAINING in their highest quality school. The Tae Kwon Do episode had medium level practitioners smashing through stacks of hard floor tiles with one open hand strike, the karate episode shown incredible jumping and acrobatic training, the kung fu episodes shown stuff like carrying heavy objects while brisk walking, and the Ninjitsu Episode showed walking across wooden poles on a a pond and climbing buildings.
> 
> In addition some of the showcased techniques are lovely insane and can literally break someone's ribs or smashed a skull cracked open if done correctly. At least KO an opponent VERY FAST.
> 
> In addition all the fighters were muscular as hell, at worst skinny with no fat on their body and the strongest people can pass off for lighter classes of bodybuilders or looked like powerlifters.
> 
> So I am curious. When the first UFC was taking place, most of the traditional martial artists came from the quite dumbed down Western schools that did focused mainly on forms and light sparring and did not do much physical conditioning (most even lacked basic light 10 lbs dumbells). The traditional martial artists shown were often extremely out of shape being skinny and frail looking and obese. In addition even the execution their kicks and punches were pretty sloppy looking even by the low standards of UFC at the time.
> 
> So much of the traditional martial arts were beaten within seconds and for the next UFC tournaments, the pattern would repeat until the late 90s and early 2000s when Western traditional martial artists began not only to incorporate other styles but even actually take their strictly traditional martial arts training seriously that they actually hit heavy bags and do live sparring rather than the kata based and points sparring so common in Western TMA schools.
> 
> Now at least some techniques of TKD, Karate, and even Chinese styles have proven effective enough that fighters have made them standard arsenal in MMA.
> 
> However as I said the Human Weapon series shows a lot of the old school traditional martial arts schools back in Asia have some very hardass training. Further personal research I doneshows that while the average practitioners spar with limitations (such as no punches to the head in Kyokushin training), in dojo vs dojo and style vs style bouts all bets are off and high ranking students and senseis pretty much fight no holds barred like MMA, in some cases even removing MMA's limitations and allowing stomping opponents on the ground, etc.
> 
> Hell in Asia's own local MMA organizations and tournaments, they have traditional martial artists fighting quite full contact and realistically to UFC standards in an MMA style match decades before UFC came! While its not strictly MMA, Muhammad Ali had to forfeit a mockup match in a shootboxing rules because his opponent was doing serious damage to his legs with kicks.
> 
> So I am curious why from the 90s up until the 2010s, the traditional martial artists (who did not mix in boxing and other styles) that represented Asian styles in UFC were often mediocre quality or worse? Why didn't we get guy as strong and well trained as Mas Oyama or Korean tae kwon do practitioners who's served in Korean special forces?
> 
> I still think they would lose due to the rules but at least they're a proper representation of traditional martial arts in a so-called "ultimate fighting championship" style tournament rather than the terrible practitioners we got in the West!
> 
> I mean since the Gracies had the means to, why couldn't they invite fighters directly from Japan, Korea, China, etc to get the cream of the crop in the first UFC?
> 
> In addition I notice Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu suffered the worst criticism and for a while back karate did too. At least TKD is now getting more respect thanks to George St-Pierre and other fighters who specialized or started with TKD now having good performances in UFC. Karate already got skilled practitioners who won belts after learning to incorporate boxing and other styles in. However Kung Fu still suffers from this stigma badly.
> 
> How come these three styles were the most popular to attack especially during the 90s (and today Kung Fu still gets so much criticism)?



If you really want to research, you should get the book “Is This Legal” by Art Davie. He’s the guy who started the UFC and the book is the detailed story of every step of the way. It’s a fascinating read, especially for Martial Artists and fighters, and readily available on Amazon. Inexpensive, too.

You really need to start there in order to know what the many questions are that you might want to ask. You’re kind of in the dark here, the book would help you a lot. And it’s a fun read.

It’s also good to keep in my mind what the UFC was then compared to now. It was  tournament then. A very difficult one, too.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> Look it is basically like this. When people tell you it is the individual and the training not the style.
> 
> They are basically wrong.
> 
> Imagine I find an athletic guy and i enter him in to a triathlon. Swimming, running, bicycle.
> 
> And I take him to an expert who trains him every day. And he gets fit and strong.
> 
> But I train him in horse riding.
> 
> Because he has done the wrong style. He probably won't do as well as he could have had he trained swimming, running or bicycle.
> 
> So just because a fit guy can break a piece of wood. Doesn't make him a UFC fighter.



This is entirely true except that it really is NOT about the style.

Fighting is a skill in its own right that requires specific training. 

All MA styles can train to fight. There is and never has been any rules that prevent tma schools from improving their fighting skills. 

Whether they do or not is up to the instructor of the school. That is why the style argument is nonsense. The fighting style is about how you fight, not how you train. How you train would be called a training style. 

And yes there are stupid exceptions to this like that no touch knockout school or aikido that never advertised it's self as a fighting style. But if you're art has good basics like punching and kicking and moving then you can train to put them together in a fight effective way.

So if anyone can train to fight, why did so many tma fighters get their butts kicked?

Bad training mostly. TMA tend to train to "do" TMA. Breaking boards, kata, powerful strikes, chi sau etc. When they fight they often pick formats designed to highlight their niche skills. Taekwondo is all kicking, wing chun starts from chi sau rolling,  shotokan pulls the fist back to the hip etc.

Doing these skill based exercises without exposure to other methods easily convinces people that they have more ability than they do. 

Add to this the fact that people who want to fight usually go to combat sports, not TMA, especially after all the YouTube videos of TMA losses. That means you have a much smaller pool of fight contenders to choose from. 

Then you have to consider that tma has no direct route into mma. You go to a karate school, you enter karate tournaments. If you dream of fighting ufc, you go to an mma school and get taught to fight a different way.

More TMA fighters will come, but it will take strong talent and strong personality to persist with tma methods in a non tma training environment.


----------



## hoshin1600

This is what karate looked like back when i first started training.   i was recently watching the Glory organization fights on Fight Pass and the few that i watched look horrible.  so i YouTubed PKA kick boxing and found this clip.  competitive fighting is competitive fighting  MMA does not have an exclusive market cornered where only they have the secret.  
i blame it on the 1980's  everything was glitz and glam.  the hair, the music, most everything sucked.  the 1982 corvette only had 200 HP.  
martial arts didnt escape this black hole of a time period.  we saw the advent of disco kata with super light weight bo staffs with neon lights twirling like there was a marching band behind the multi color Gi majorette.
it was a dark period ...the 80's were not kind.  while there were no bell bottoms the mullet was taking over the country side. as hair grew the brains of people seems to diminish.

but before the dark ages there was a time when there were good fighting karate men.  as these men aged the younger generation was lost in a mix of shiny objects and Ritalin.


----------



## Danny T

drop bear said:


> Look it is basically like this. When people tell you it is the individual and the training not the style.
> 
> They are basically wrong.
> 
> Imagine I find an athletic guy and i enter him in to a triathlon. Swimming, running, bicycle.
> 
> And I take him to an expert who trains him every day. And he gets fit and strong.
> 
> But I train him in horse riding.
> 
> Because he has done the wrong style. He probably won't do as well as he could have had he trained swimming, running or bicycle.
> 
> So just because a fit guy can break a piece of wood. Doesn't make him a UFC fighter.


So we both train using the same methodology however, your style for holding your guard is a bit different than mine and your fundamental stance, weight distribution, & footwork is slightly different to my style. The training therefore is basically wrong but one of our styles make the difference?

Nah...I don't agree with that.


----------



## dvcochran

hoshin1600 said:


> This is what karate looked like back when i first started training.   i was recently watching the Glory organization fights on Fight Pass and the few that i watched look horrible.  so i YouTubed PKA kick boxing and found this clip.  competitive fighting is competitive fighting  MMA does not have an exclusive market cornered where only they have the secret.
> i blame it on the 1980's  everything was glitz and glam.  the hair, the music, most everything sucked.  the 1982 corvette only had 200 HP.
> martial arts didnt escape this black hole of a time period.  we saw the advent of disco kata with super light weight bo staffs with neon lights twirling like there was a marching band behind the multi color Gi majorette.
> it was a dark period ...the 80's were not kind.  while there were no bell bottoms the mullet was taking over the country side. as hair grew the brains of people seems to diminish.
> 
> but before the dark ages there was a time when there were good fighting karate men.  as these men aged the younger generation was lost in a mix of shiny objects and Ritalin.


PKA was very popular in Memphis, TN and surrounding areas. I went down and did 6 or 7 weekends of fighting there. It was a great learning experience. I really had to adjust to the spinning backfist being used so often. I never got knocked out but got the s*** beat out of me a few times. I would match it with any kind of up fighting out there.


----------



## Martial D

Danny T said:


> So we both train using the same methodology however, your style for holding your guard is a bit different than mine and your fundamental stance, weight distribution, & footwork is slightly different to my style. The training therefore is basically wrong but one of our styles make the difference?
> 
> Nah...I don't agree with that.


'effective' is a spectrum, as is 'ineffective'.

Let's take Connor and Kabbib. Both very effective, but also very different.


----------



## drop bear

Danny T said:


> So we both train using the same methodology however, your style for holding your guard is a bit different than mine and your fundamental stance, weight distribution, & footwork is slightly different to my style. The training therefore is basically wrong but one of our styles make the difference?
> 
> Nah...I don't agree with that.



There is two different arguments. Saying more than one style works is different to saying all styles work. 

It is ultimately where you 0lace from and function.


----------



## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


>


Dude does not really know much about capoeira.


----------



## paitingman

I think there have always been legitimately skilled fighters in a lot of styles, but many people today and definitely in the early days of the UFC are/were training with "blinders" on. 

I don't care whether it's boxing or taekwondo. There are those out there training with blinders on and not thinking of what others outside of their approach may do like leg kicks and takedowns. Then again lots of people training boxing and tkd and keep these things in mind as they train or include them in their training.

Today many more martial artists are exposed to and familiar with all sorts of different techniques and tactics so the blinders are off.

Those training hard and keeping their minds open to all the possibilities should do well enough no matter the style


----------



## Steve

Danny T said:


> So we both train using the same methodology however, your style for holding your guard is a bit different than mine and your fundamental stance, weight distribution, & footwork is slightly different to my style. The training therefore is basically wrong but one of our styles make the difference?
> 
> Nah...I don't agree with that.


Guys, we see logic terms misused all the time around here.  People throw the term Straw Man out all the tome, inappropriately.

This is a textbook straw man . Made me laugh out loud when I read it.  Bravo.


----------



## Steve

paitingman said:


> I think there have always been legitimately skilled fighters in a lot of styles, but many people today and definitely in the early days of the UFC are/were training with "blinders" on.
> 
> I don't care whether it's boxing or taekwondo. There are those out there training with blinders on and not thinking of what others outside of their approach may do like leg kicks and takedowns. Then again lots of people training boxing and tkd and keep these things in mind as they train or include them in their training.
> 
> Today many more martial artists are exposed to and familiar with all sorts of different techniques and tactics so the blinders are off.
> 
> Those training hard and keeping their minds open to all the possibilities should do well enough no matter the style


I think there are lots of blinders still . We see hints of them all the time around here.  It's often from the, 'my style might work and you can't say otherwise because you arent an expert in my style" contingent.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Flying Crane said:


> Dude does not really know much about capoeira.


I believe he practiced it for a while, no clue how long. That said...I know squat about capoeira, besides how to pronounce it and that it looks cool. What did he say that was wrong?


----------



## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


> I believe he practiced it for a while, no clue how long. That said...I know squat about capoeira, besides how to pronounce it and that it looks cool. What did he say that was wrong?


I didn’t listen to the whole thing, I have a short attention span for a long of the drivel.  But I turned him off when he started talking about capoeira as a fighting method “disguised” as a dance.

There is no disguise there.  It is simply a different cultural norm.  African tribal groups used music and rhythm is many of their daily activities.  Athletics and martial training would be no different.  

If you have ever seen capoeira, there is no mistaking it for a dance.  It is obviously a martial method.  The slave owners knew about capoeira, they knew what it was, they were not fooled.


----------



## hoshin1600

reading the OP topic title, i am wondering.....were there no TMA trained guys in Pride.  you know since it being from Japan and all?


----------



## punisher73

First, MMA is not equal to UFC.  Most fans in the US equate the two.  Go over to other countries in other competitions and you will see different base arts.

David Loiseau was in the UFC and did some amazing TKD kicks that I haven't seen anyone else really pull off.


----------



## Lifetime student

Martial D said:


> 'effective' is a spectrum, as is 'ineffective'.
> 
> Let's take Connor and Kabbib. Both very effective, but also very different.


Spectrum ?

"I don't know what that is but get the hell off it pronto"

Cobra Kai quote lol


----------



## Lifetime student

Fact is the traditional guys in the first few UFC events weren't good fighters because they couldn't get good fighters in the early. You had 50 year old Kung fu guys fighting, you had out of shape kick boxers, you had wrestlers who'd never thrown a punch in their life, you had 500 pound sumo wrestlers. Fact is a lot of the old school UFC fighters were hand picked so Gracie would look good....that's what the early UFC was basically a promo for the Gracie's schools and frankly back people didn't have a clue what Bjj was. 

It comes down to the training. If you spend all your training time standing in deep stances punching the air in place you won't win any fights.


----------



## Hanzou

Lifetime student said:


> Fact is the traditional guys in the first few UFC events weren't good fighters because they couldn't get good fighters in the early. You had 50 year old Kung fu guys fighting, you had out of shape kick boxers, you had wrestlers who'd never thrown a punch in their life, you had 500 pound sumo wrestlers. Fact is a lot of the old school UFC fighters were hand picked so Gracie would look good....that's what the early UFC was basically a promo for the Gracie's schools and frankly back people didn't have a clue what Bjj was.



Ken Shamrock, Art Jimmeson, and Gerard Gordeau were all high level professional fighters before the UFC. The idea that they were just bums off the street to make it easy for the Gracies is laughable stuff.


----------



## FriedRice

Hanzou said:


> Ken Shamrock, Art Jimmeson, and Gerard Gordeau were all high level professional fighters before the UFC. The idea that they were just bums off the street to make it easy for the Gracies is laughable stuff.



Not only that Jimmerson was a Champion, who held 2 Boxing Titles and with a winning record. Patrick Smith, Remco Pardoel, Minoki Ichihara, Jason DeLucia....these were all legit TMA'ists and fighers.


----------



## drop bear

kempodisciple said:


> I believe he practiced it for a while, no clue how long. That said...I know squat about capoeira, besides how to pronounce it and that it looks cool. What did he say that was wrong?



There are musical cues so when the authorities came the band would change the music and it would become a samba roda.


----------



## punisher73

Hanzou said:


> Ken Shamrock, Art Jimmeson, and Gerard Gordeau were all high level professional fighters before the UFC. The idea that they were just bums off the street to make it easy for the Gracies is laughable stuff.



Art Jimmeson, the guy with one boxing glove? Come on that is a prime example of no one but the Gracies knowing what to expect, which is why it was so hard to find fighters    They also knew that Ken Shamrock did not know anything about fighting with/against a gi.  You will notice that no wrestlers were invited to that first UFC, Rorion did not want them there (interview with Art Davie).  The UFC WAS designed as a Gracie marketing tool.

I agree that they were not "bums off the street", but they stacked the deck in their favor.


----------



## Hanzou

punisher73 said:


> Art Jimmeson, the guy with one boxing glove? Come on that is a prime example of no one but the Gracies knowing what to expect, which is why it was so hard to find fighters    They also knew that Ken Shamrock did not know anything about fighting with/against a gi.  You will notice that no wrestlers were invited to that first UFC, Rorion did not want them there (interview with Art Davie).  The UFC WAS designed as a Gracie marketing tool.
> 
> I agree that they were not "bums off the street", but they stacked the deck in their favor.



Jimmeson himself chose to fight with one glove.

Shamrock was a professional wrestler. Teali Tuli was a professional Sumo Wrestler.

It's actually easier to grapple against someone with a gi because you have more grips vs a sweaty body. Royce was actually at a disadvantage against Shamrock.


----------



## punisher73

Hanzou said:


> Jimmeson himself chose to fight with one glove.
> 
> Shamrock was a professional wrestler. Teali Tuli was a professional Sumo Wrestler.
> 
> It's actually easier to grapple against someone with a gi because you have more grips vs a sweaty body. Royce was actually at a disadvantage against Shamrock.



Correct, because Jimmeson didn't know what to expect.

Shamrock did Pancrase, Tuli was a Sumo who hadn't fought in 4 years.  Royce was not at a disadvantage, they knew that Shamrock didn't know how to use a gi or be prepared for a gi being used as a weapon.  That is based on interviews with the Gracies. Even Shamrock was miffed that they wouldn't let him wear wrestling shoes because the clothing could be used as a weapon, yet Royce used his uniform as a weapon.

You might not like it, but the fact that wrestlers were not selected is also fact based on interviews.  The Gracies have a lot invested in people believing the hype that they were all undefeated fighters and were the wellspring of everything that is BJJ.


----------



## Hanzou

punisher73 said:


> Correct, because Jimmeson didn't know what to expect.
> 
> Shamrock did Pancrase, Tuli was a Sumo who hadn't fought in 4 years.  Royce was not at a disadvantage, they knew that Shamrock didn't know how to use a gi or be prepared for a gi being used as a weapon.  That is based on interviews with the Gracies. Even Shamrock was miffed that they wouldn't let him wear wrestling shoes because the clothing could be used as a weapon, yet Royce used his uniform as a weapon.
> 
> You might not like it, but the fact that wrestlers were not selected is also fact based on interviews.  The Gracies have a lot invested in people believing the hype that they were all undefeated fighters and were the wellspring of everything that is BJJ.



I believe the full name was "Pancrase Hybrid *Wrestling*". He also wrestled in high school and college, and was the veteran of multiple pro wrestling organizations before entering UFC1.

As for the rest, it sounds like Shamrock is just making excuses for his loss. Who knew that extra grips and no shoes would completely break his wrestling style!


----------



## drop bear

For op. It is because not stylistically but training methodologically mma is about the best method to gain realistic feedback about martial arts.

From the open rule set to the gloves the precise mats that allow stand up and takedowns to even using the cage wall to fight from it is just a huge step forwards.

And this method of honest feedback progresses a martial art faster than just about anything.


10 years of drills just doesn't progress as fast as 6 months of sparring.

I remember training in these back in the day.



 

It was hard to spar in them.


----------



## drop bear

punisher73 said:


> Correct, because Jimmeson didn't know what to expect.
> 
> Shamrock did Pancrase, Tuli was a Sumo who hadn't fought in 4 years.  Royce was not at a disadvantage, they knew that Shamrock didn't know how to use a gi or be prepared for a gi being used as a weapon.  That is based on interviews with the Gracies. Even Shamrock was miffed that they wouldn't let him wear wrestling shoes because the clothing could be used as a weapon, yet Royce used his uniform as a weapon.
> 
> You might not like it, but the fact that wrestlers were not selected is also fact based on interviews.  The Gracies have a lot invested in people believing the hype that they were all undefeated fighters and were the wellspring of everything that is BJJ.



Wrestling shoes are a double edged sword a bit as well. It makes single leg escapes harder.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I believe the full name was "Pancrase Hybrid *Wrestling*". He also wrestled in high school and college, and was the veteran of multiple pro wrestling organizations before entering UFC1.
> 
> As for the rest, it sounds like Shamrock is just making excuses for his loss. Who knew that extra grips and no shoes would completely break his wrestling style!



And he got rnc'ed. So not a gi choke.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> And he got rnc'ed. So not a gi choke.



Shamrock claims he got gi choked. 

Just more evidence of him whining about his loss.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Shamrock claims he got gi choked.
> 
> Just more evidence of him whining about his loss.








I had a look and there was no gi magic I can see.

He made a few mistakes mmaers try not to make these days like guillotine sprawls and giving up the back.

Then again Royce was throwing palm strikes rather than hammer fists.

Which is kind of the point about mma and feedback I mentioned in my other thread.


----------



## FriedRice

punisher73 said:


> Even Shamrock was miffed that they wouldn't let him wear wrestling shoes because the clothing could be used as a weapon, yet Royce used his uniform as a weapon.



False. It was because Shamrock wanted to kick. If you kicked, then you couldn't wear shoes.



> You might not like it, but the fact that wrestlers were not selected is also fact based on interviews.


 
False. I have almost all of the UFC's on video. The early UFC's was like an invasion of Wrestlers and they dominated for a while. But even during Royce's short reign, there were Judokas and Shamrock was clearly a wrestler. What, Dan Severn wasn't a wrestler or something? 

The Gracie had a few fights on YouTube way before this where they fought Wrestlers and beat them. Why didn't many Wrestlers show up during Royce's days? I dunno, maybe they were scared after knowing about the Gracie's reputation for wrecking Wrestlers  in their Torrance, CA gym.  Why weren't there many Sumo Wrestlers? Why weren't there many Boxers?  Why weren't there any Wing Chunners?


----------



## Steve

drop bear said:


> Wrestling shoes are a double edged sword a bit as well. It makes single leg escapes harder.


They are also great grips for ankle locks and toe holds.  The sole of the shoe is stiff and grippy.


----------



## ShotoNoob

kempodisciple said:


>



I really like this guy.  I think he's wrong a number of issues regarding TMA (surprise).  IMO, though, he convinces me that he's trying to get to the truth(s) and isn't afraid to put himself out there with this strange thing called explanations.   It's also true he has moderated his criticism of traditional martial arts over time.

He states he hails from a kick boxing background.  The gym he runs is specifically for MMA.  He's very, very athletically talented, should you catch a glimpse of him doing workouts.

His criticisms of traditional marital arts often hold true or have the ring of truth to them in certain aspects.  Much of these I explain by karetaka having poor understanding & by trainiing mproperly.  He thinks through his arguments before he states them and applies analysis of one kind or another.  What, in principle, everyone should be doing.

I thought he was kinda corny or cheesy at first, however, he kind of grows on you with his didactics (word?).  I do believe that he's very serious about training MMA.  I'd kill him with karate though - maybe.


----------



## ShotoNoob

DaveB said:


> A. So if anyone can train to fight, why did so many tma fighters get their butts kicked?
> 
> B. Bad training mostly. TMA tend to train to "do" TMA. Breaking boards, kata, powerful strikes, chi sau etc. When they fight they often pick formats designed to highlight their niche skills. Taekwondo is all kicking, wing chun starts from chi sau rolling,  shotokan pulls the fist back to the hip etc.
> 
> C. Doing these skill based exercises without exposure to other methods easily convinces people that they have more ability than they do.
> 
> D. Add to this the fact that people who want to fight usually go to combat sports, not TMA, especially after all the YouTube videos of TMA losses. That means you have a much smaller pool of fight contenders to choose from.
> 
> E. Then you have to consider that tma has no direct route into mma. You go to a karate school, you enter karate tournaments. If you dream of fighting ufc, you go to an mma school and get taught to fight a different way.
> 
> F. More TMA fighters will come, but it will take strong talent and strong personality to persist with tma methods in a non tma training environment.



Another poster who covers a lot of ground in a single post.

Your "D." is a point which I tried to fold into another thread, some of the flavor of that kind of influence.  "B." is where I want to focus.

I go to a TMA class, and do some TMA stuff.  Then I go to an MMA school and get floored by the novice boxer as I step forward and do a down block and middle punch.  I tried to block the boxer later, but found I was too slow.  Smacked upside the head again.  To be short, when I was at the TMAschool, how well did I understand and absorb the theory of TMA training?  And then train a competent understanding competently?

To be brief, my position is that a lot if not the large majority of TMA practitioners who go into MMA either didn't understand what they were supposed to be training while engaged in TMA, or couldn't make the transition from  the physicality of training to the mental disicpline base sought for in the traditional martial arts.  Hence, became or reverted to that old adage, "kick boxers in pajamas."

Hence MMA training which produces well conditioned, physically fit competitors who are fairly aggressive in the least armed with some wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ some working know how... flattens the TMA stylist who doesn't know what the heck he(she)  is doing.  Squash match so much of the time.  Game over.

Here's a vid to illustrate.  TMA gets crushed.


----------



## drop bear

By the way when someone says TMA. I generally think demos, drills and kata.

When I think of mma I think of fitness, contact sparring and resistance.

Now regardless of the style I think these two methods are what separates good martial artists from bad ones.


----------



## ShotoNoob

*Joe lewis vs greg baines Kickboxing*
487 views







giuseppe previti
Published on Dec 18, 2016

The famous Joe Lewis narrates.  Joe reports a number of insights.  Two I feel are important are:

ONE: Greg Baines, despite his stupendous physique and karate competition record, Joe Lewis says Greg wasn't really putting uumphh into his punches.  The point fighting hangover?

TWO:  He mentions Bruce Lee taught a double hook which Joe used to get the KO.  The double hook goes low to the body, then upstairs to the head.  Bing, BANG. Worked like a charm.  Joe then moves into finish, Greg was apparently pretty well out.

Walla, the superiority of JKD, what Joes says Bruce was training him in,  over that gawd awful traditional Shotokan karate.  Later MMA same experience & viewpoint.

Now here's my take.

FIRST.  Look at the phyisque on Greg Baines.  He's DC & Jon Jones in one.  This guy could physically smash or snap most anybody in two no matter what technique he used.  Certainly me.  So could it be possible, is it likely that Shotokan karate wasn't the source of Greg's karate competition success, but rather his overpowering strength in that physique?  Now same question for MMA.  Is it Jon Jones natural 1 in a million athletic physique which makes Greg Jackson's reputation for producing champions, or is it Greg's gaidojitsu creation which is the secret?  We don't hear so much about gaido jitsu any more.... Hhmmmm.

SECOND.  Joe Lewis himself reports that Greg just wasn't that strong in his technique.  His strikes didn't have great impact.  So Joe was able to absorb them without any ill effect.  Was Greg having a bad day?  Did Greg suffer from point fighting syndrome... the ole pillow hands striking?  Did Greg's practice of Shotokan depend on using a lot of heavy muscle and tension which robbed his strength?  What else, something was wrong, enough for this wrongness to register with Joe Lewis.  Maybe Gregg wasted too much time on that ugh, kata.

THIRD.  And this is what really gets me about all those who have "discovered" and/or "created" that new special martial art.  Joes' whole point about Bruce Lee "master tactician."  REally?

THE JKD DOUBLE STRIKE.  A CASE STUDY.

PART A. Two Immediate Strikes.
*Basics - Double Punch in Front Stance - Brisbane Taekwondo Centre*
2,221 views







brisbanemartialarts
Published on Feb 27, 2013

Okay, I'm sure I can find a boxing vid with a say, double jab.  Double strikes have been in boxing for what nigh on two hundred years of formal boxing.  Take TKD, since WWII era at least.  Way before Bruce Lee on both counts.

So the principle of a double strike has been around forever, colloquially speaking.  No kidding.  Double strikes aren't some new martial art technique.  Sorry MMA / JKD fans.

PART B.  THE LEVEL CHANGE.

Just for all of those who eschew kata, karate practice typically incorporates these kinds of kumite drills.  I hate them but that's me.
*WKF KARATE-KUMITE TRAINING FOR COMPETITION-KARATE KLUB GEPARD*
58,265 views







Dragan Lakicevic
Published on Aug 18, 2017

Wait, did I see what I just saw?  Noooo.  Level changes?!!??? Sometimes they punch to the head.  And other times they punch to the midsection.  Kicks too.  Good thing JKD taught karate what to do.   Except karate pre-dates JKD.  Boxing video same no problem.

If Greg Bains, good day or bad, wants to march around posing in Shotokan form, throw a technique here & there at super tough Joe Lewis and hope that works... that's up to him.  Joe himself mentions how both were conditioned to the gills.  So maybe Greg found himself in a rather new experience facing a competitor who brought physical talent which matched or exceeded his won?  Maybe.  That could turn the tide of battle, MMA would wholly agree.

One thing for sure, Greg was facing a superbly conditioned opponent who trained how to fight actively and employ technique tactically.  Sounds just like traditional karate 1-steps to me.

If you are going to do traditional karate, don't regurgitate rituals.  Learn what you're supposed to do, like Joe Lewis did by Bruce Lee's JKD.

There's your source of 90% of the failure of TMA in MMA, arguably speaking.  Dealing with "level change" some new MMA experience heretofore unimaginable by the traditional martial arts?  Silly MMA people, silly.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> By the way when someone says
> 
> A. TMA. I generally think demos, drills and kata.
> 
> When I think of
> 
> B. mma I think of fitness, contact sparring and resistance.
> 
> Now regardless of the style I think these two methods are what separates good martial artists from bad ones.




Hey drop bear, that's a very good way characterization to shed light on the issues.   I don't agree with your characterization re good / bad, which I believe is pretty much in line with MMA thinking and the full contact school of fighting & training camp.  I believe both A. & B. are or can be effective ways to train.

Advantages & disadvantages to both in a manner of speaking.  Trade offs a better descriptor.

The problem with A. isn't A.'s make up per se, it's the mindset of ignorance with which practitioners approach A. This has been discussed and sliced & diced in forums and martial arts schools all over the place and over all kinds of time.

Vid illustration again.  And OMGawd, here's a karate instructor doing one punch then another - two punches!  He also demonstrates two Wado-ryu blocks (some difference from Shotokan blocking), and OMGawd............again, level changes.  Middle then Low!!!!  AHHHH, MMA falls over in shock.
*Outer block, Lower block, reverse punch. Wado ryu Karate.*
1,475 views







Sensei shaun lanham
Published on Sep 29, 2013

Now there is some defensive objective and along with that some defensive nature to these kinds of blocks.  A boxer MMA coach can say, "but the head is wide open, begging for a knock out!"  And by boxing principle he's dead right.  The answer?

Traditional karate isn't boxing.  It has different principles (some similar same) and so the blocks are different in form.  It's not the form of the technique, it's principle of what we in karate are trying to accomplish with these blocks.  Like we block when a block works and strike when a strikes works.  Not going around waving our arms magically the way they were demonstrated, magically expecting our opponent to automatically put his punch into our block so the block works.

MMA training works and does certain things right.  Traditional karate training works better _in potential_, key words in potential, when you learn what you are really supposed to do, train that properly, and then do it properly.  The latter is much more taxing to accomplish than conventional MMA training... and so hence typically fails against MMA.  That's my theorem on the efficacy of TMA in MMA.

BOTTOM LINE:
Greg Baines against Joe Lewis proved my point.  Greg didn't necessarily lose because Shotokan karate is inferior for full contact, Joe won because his JKD rendition was understood, learned, trained properly, and then Joe went out in a mentally disciplined way and did it.


----------



## ShotoNoob

SHIINA IN 2010:
*2010　JKA All Japan female kumite final Shiina vs Tanabe(halfway)*







tsuruhimeja
Published on Jun 27, 2010

Notice how Shiina's opponent is stalking her... the look of concentration of deciding when to move.  The opponent snaps a beautiful leg kick into the waist.  What is Shiina's response?  Was that very sharp leg kick a technique or a tactic including say a level change set up?  Could be either or more, no?

Notice how the Shotokan stylist's hold their guard hands low.  Their head is by boxing, wide open.  In principle though, is the head open or guarded or both?

Notice Shiina's composure upon the opponent's all out offense.  Doesn't blink an eye (figuring speaking) or miss a beat, lands the  perfect counter punch very fast accurate to a "T."  Then gets smacked hard as the opponent's aggression barrels in unchecked (a foul).  Shiina, calm, cool, collected circles off the mat and returns seconds later shaking it off gets ready to go. A girl.

Why did Shiina prevail?  Because she knows what to do with her Shotokan karate.  Her opponent is no slouch, either.  In full contact rules, maybe Shiina's opponent would have won the round.  Joanna Jedrzejczyk you thought Rose was a handfull!

EDIT:  Notice here, how the opponent's are employing more stationary stances.  This is the more traditional form, as opposed to all that hyper bouncing mobility so often seen in tournament or even in-class free sparring.

EDIT2: The dynamics of these matches are fascinating once you are schooled in what to look for in karate power.  One mistake, one miscalculation can cost you the entire match.  Just like the analogy of the full contact knock out.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> Hey drop bear, that's a very good way characterization to shed light on the issues.   I don't agree with your characterization re good / bad, which I believe is pretty much in line with MMA thinking and the full contact school of fighting & training camp.  I believe both A. & B. are or can be effective ways to train.
> 
> Advantages & disadvantages to both in a manner of speaking.  Trade offs a better descriptor.
> 
> The problem with A. isn't A.'s make up per se, it's the mindset of ignorance with which practitioners approach A. This has been discussed and sliced & diced in forums and martial arts schools all over the place and over all kinds of time.
> 
> Vid illustration again.  And OMGawd, here's a karate instructor doing one punch then another - two punches!  He also demonstrates two Wado-ryu blocks (some difference from Shotokan blocking), and OMGawd............again, level changes.  Middle then Low!!!!  AHHHH, MMA falls over in shock.
> *Outer block, Lower block, reverse punch. Wado ryu Karate.*
> 1,475 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sensei shaun lanham
> Published on Sep 29, 2013
> 
> Now there is some defensive objective and along with that some defensive nature to these kinds of blocks.  A boxer MMA coach can say, "but the head is wide open, begging for a knock out!"  And by boxing principle he's dead right.  The answer?
> 
> Traditional karate isn't boxing.  It has different principles (some similar same) and so the blocks are different in form.  It's not the form of the technique, it's principle of what we in karate are trying to accomplish with these blocks.  Like we block when a block works and strike when a strikes works.  Not going around waving our arms magically the way they were demonstrated, magically expecting our opponent to automatically put his punch into our block so the block works.
> 
> MMA training works and does certain things right.  Traditional karate training works better _in potential_, key words in potential, when you learn what you are really supposed to do, train that properly, and then do it properly.  The latter is much more taxing to accomplish than conventional MMA training... and so hence typically fails against MMA.  That's my theorem on the efficacy of TMA in MMA.
> 
> BOTTOM LINE:
> Greg Baines against Joe Lewis proved my point.  Greg didn't necessarily lose because Shotokan karate is inferior for full contact, Joe won because his JKD rendition was understood, learned, trained properly, and then Joe went out in a mentally disciplined way and did it.



Ok. Lets put it this way. Compare the absolute best training you could do under a Wado-ryu banner. To this.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Then I go to an MMA school and get floored by the novice boxer as I step forward and do a down block and middle punch.




Why would you do that? don't you spar in the TMA class?

Wado Ryu is my style, when we spar (as in kumite)  we don't do kata movements, it's much more like kickboxing ( which came from karate). No one does such a long stance. I would also say that the video posted isn't like Wado but more Shotokan, we have much shorter more upright stances, those were too low and long. We also don't 'block' a lot but rather deflect a useful technique to be able to do, we use elbows a lot as well, spinning elbows are just nasty.
There can be no disputing the authenticity of this though considering who is in the video. In Wado nothing else would be correct.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Why would you do that? don't you spar in the TMA class?



I was just putting up a superficial example of people walking into a TMA school, taking some lessons to 'try it out,' without making the necessary investment in the art.  Then expecting whatever they learned to be immediately applicable.  I've seen this mentality, most recently at an Isshin Ryu Club I checked out.  One of the newer students fit this bill.  Got creamed in sparring with a kick boxer.



Tez3 said:


> Wado Ryu is my style, when we spar (as in kumite)  we don't do kata movements, it's much more like kickboxing ( which came from karate). No one does such a long stance. I would also say that the video posted isn't like Wado but more Shotokan, we have much shorter more upright stances, those were too low and long. We also don't 'block' a lot but rather deflect a useful technique to be able to do, we use elbows a lot as well, spinning elbows are just nasty.



I refer to Shotokan karate as the traditional karate model for a number of reasons.  As a karate style, it's not on my favorite list.  There are numerous aspects I don't like about it.  Shotokan's low stances in practice a lot of practitioners object to as you mentioned in your commentaty.

I'm not real studied up on the major styles of Japanese karate.  TMU, one major difference of Wado ryu was the incorporation of jujutsu into the original Shotokan karate.  The goal was to provide an alternative, to offset the head-on aggressiveness which delimits Shotokan's practice in many ways.  Hence, Wado is more tactical.  I also find it amusing that MMA claims to bring on a "new thinking" in accessing multiple arts when here we had Japanese karate masters taking this route during the WW II era.

How your organization practices Wado ryu with the kick boxing emphasis is also very common among certain karate schools in my area.  Kata is so not attractive to this kind of audience.  I also feel that MMA competitors should pay more attention to training specifically with kick-boxing schools, because of their possibly better technical depth and focus.



Tez3 said:


> There can be no disputing the authenticity of this though considering who is in the video. In Wado nothing else would be correct.[link omitted]



One of the complaints so often voiced about Shotokan is the rigid mindset of the instruction.  This can happen anywhere, but it really pops up with Shotokan training.  I encourage any karate practitioner to review the entire curriculum and consider all the teachings.  The way in which a particular dojo or instructor approaches the art may or may not encompass the art.  Here's an example.  Shotokan Precept No. 17.

_Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced.
_
The character of Shotokan is supposed to change as one becomes "advanced."  Unfortunately, traditional karate spells out a laundry list of hap haphazard ideals and principles in trying to elevate the practice of martial arts.  So the burden is placed upon the practitioner on how to decipher and put all this together on a very subjective plane.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Wado Ryu is my style, when we spar (as in kumite)  we don't do kata movements, it's much more like kickboxing ( which came from karate).



The absence of the range of kata movements in kumite is a general practice.  This is for a number of reasons, including fighting using numerous kata movements would  sparring performance to become much more complicated, hence difficult.

I myself make it a point to free spar with 'kata,' however, this really is mostly with kihon technique and stances and so one.  Though conventional wisdom is that kihon karate is impractical and doesn't work in real time, this is false.  You have to develop your mind and put karate principles into use properly.

One of the ways my practice in sparring differs then from kickboxing, is that I use a front punch just like in Shotokan's taiyouku katas, instead the often seen boxer jab by kick boxing.  The front or forward punch is the 1st kihon punch taught in our curriculum although it may be trained with a horse stance for starters.


----------



## ShotoNoob

*Shogun Rua knocks out Lyoto Machida*
55,783 views


drop bear said:


> Ok. Lets put it this way. Compare the absolute best training you could do under a Wado-ryu banner. To this.
> 
> _[link omitted]_



No, that's really for the individual to decide.  Privately, I call Muay Thai, "Dumb" Thai.

Muay Thai has enjoyed a lot of success in MMA.  I especially enjoy the MMA matches with the karate based stylists, like Machida, pitted against the Muay Thai fighters.  If there is anything Muay Thai MMA fighters are good at, it's exposing crap karate performance in MMA.







Jonathan Silva
Published on May 9, 2010

It's important to note, Rua outclasses Machida on a physique basis.

Prior to this, Machida wiped out Thiago Silva, a Muay Thai stylist.  The latter, really a plodding bruiser.

TMU, lately, Muay Thai has fallen out of favor as the "it" striking art for MMA.  Which underscords my criticism of MMA as some standard for martial arts.  MMA functions as a test, not a standard.  The preferences and successes in MMA follow fads and fickle attraction of a style or styles, based on what particular MMA orgs. and match makers favor or try to adapt at any one time.

We see this confirmed (to an extent) with a number of the better, championship level MMA competitors leaving camps and moving to others, typically with more specialized training or trainer credentials.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> How your organization practices Wado ryu with the kick boxing emphasis is also very common among certain karate schools in my area.




Ah no, that's not what I meant, it's the other way around. Kick boxing came from karate, not karate copying kick boxing. 

I'm not talking about Muay Thai though which I've also done.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Ok. Lets put it this way. Compare the absolute best training you could do under a Wado-ryu banner.



I wouldn't say that what you saw in that video was Wado Ryu though, the curriculum in Wado includes throws, take downs, joint locks etc because it contains a lot of Jujutsu. Sparring hard has always been encouraged, it's the main difference between Shotokan and Wado Ryu and one of the reason why Ohtsuka Sensei started his own style. it's a hugely practical style for self defence and kumite.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't say that what you saw in that video was Wado Ryu though, the curriculum in Wado includes throws, take downs, joint locks etc because it contains a lot of Jujutsu. Sparring hard has always been encouraged, it's the main difference between Shotokan and Wado Ryu and one of the reason why Ohtsuka Sensei started his own style. it's a hugely practical style for self defence and kumite.



Well as far as Japanese karate goes, what limited I know, I thought the video was good.  As you've stated, there has been frequent criticism of Shotokan as being too well, Shotokan, for self defense.

One of my answer is to look at Shotokan's form & emphasis, then ask yourself what they are trying to accomplish.  I feel a lot of that is conditioning, physical fitness _strangely_ just like MMA places so much weight on.

From a self defense aspect, the jujutsu dimension incorporated with actual sparring would better prepare for that civilian self defense which is spoken of.  Shotokan is trying to simplify karate application in some sense.  I call Shotokan the KISS karate.

The 'hard' sparring as a convention with Wado ryu I'm not familiar with that.  The Japanese Shotokan practitioners have been reported to engage in _spirited_ sparring exercises.  Kinda hard asses it's been told.

My overall feeling is that if one explores the universe of traditional karate, you will find much alignment with practices which are either adopted by MMA, or which align with MMA objectives yet more traditionally principled.  Wado ryu by your practices being a fine example.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> The 'hard' sparring as a convention with Wado ryu I'm not familiar with that. The Japanese Shotokan practitioners have been reported to engage in _spirited_ sparring exercises. Kinda hard asses it's been told.




Funakoshi by all accounts didn't like sparring, he didn't want his students doing it, Ohtsuka did, he thought sparring was good training, it's one of the reasons they split and Wado Ryu was formed.
In Wado we don't usually have mats to train the throws takedowns etc so get used to pain quite early.


----------



## Buka

ShotoNoob said:


> BOTTOM LINE:
> Greg Baines against Joe Lewis proved my point.  Greg didn't necessarily lose because Shotokan karate is inferior for full contact, Joe won because his JKD rendition was understood, learned, trained properly, and then Joe went out in a mentally disciplined way and did it.



Joe won because he was the far better fighter. At that time one of the best Karate fighters in the country.

I really enjoyed watching that. Some legendary folks make appearances in that clip. Awesome, thanks for posting it.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Funakoshi by all accounts didn't like sparring, he didn't want his students doing it, Ohtsuka did, he thought sparring was good training, it's one of the reasons they split and Wado Ryu was formed.
> In Wado we don't usually have mats to train the throws takedowns etc so get used to pain quite early.



Your reply just reinforces how MMA competitors, if they would broaden their horizons, could locate compatible TMA based training.  

Personally I'm the Funakoshi / kata camp.  For the far majority of practitioners, however, the pressure testing & reality check of the kumite component; I believe the benefits can't be denied.  Both Shotokan and Wado ryu moved to this conclusion.  And the traditional karates generally as a group too.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't say that what you saw in that video was Wado Ryu though, the curriculum in Wado includes throws, take downs, joint locks etc because it contains a lot of Jujutsu. Sparring hard has always been encouraged, it's the main difference between Shotokan and Wado Ryu and one of the reason why Ohtsuka Sensei started his own style. it's a hugely practical style for self defence and kumite.



Yeah. It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't. 

The standard of training and the standard of martial artist participating won't be as high as the guys in that camp.

And that is what consistently creates the best martial artists.

And because there is no vehicle to create the best martial artists. TMA,s just don't get people to the standard where they could fight and win in the top promotions.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Your reply just reinforces how MMA competitors, if they would broaden their horizons, could locate compatible TMA based training.
> 
> Personally I'm the Funakoshi / kata camp.  For the far majority of practitioners, however, the pressure testing & reality check of the kumite component; I believe the benefits can't be denied.  Both Shotokan and Wado ryu moved to this conclusion.  And the traditional karates generally as a group too.




I would agree with you if I didn't already know that many MMA people like myself come from TMA, just about all do in the UK and Europe I've found. We don't have a wrestling culture here so in the beginning it was Judo that was trained for groundwork, then when BJJ instructors became trained up BJJ was used, we still have that strong Judo and BJJ background here. We have Olympic Judoka who run seminars for MMA fighters.
Stand up has nearly always come from karate and TKD with Muay Thai becoming popular as well. Dan Hardy is typical, started in TKD, went onto karate, jujutsu and Judo, he in fact also trained CMA in China.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Yeah. It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't.
> 
> The standard of training and the standard of martial artist participating won't be as high as the guys in that camp.
> 
> And that is what consistently creates the best martial artists.
> 
> And because there is no vehicle to create the best martial artists. TMA,s just don't get people to the standard where they could fight and win in the top promotions.




Oh dear, I wouldn't have expected you to say anything else. I would remind you that karate was designed for civilian unarmed self defence not for competitive fighting. It's supposed to be for ordinary people who have jobs work and want to be able to defend themselves. You are comparing apples and oranges and sounding boastful while at it.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> . TMA,s just don't get people to the standard where they could fight and win in the top promotions.



George St Pierre, Bas Rutten,  and a great many others managed it somehow but then you are going to tell me how poor they are as fighters and you don't rate them.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> George St Pierre, Bas Rutten,  and a great many others managed it somehow but then you are going to tell me how poor they are as fighters and you don't rate them.



Is tristar really a TMA gym though?
Tristar Gym - Wikipedia


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Is tristar really a TMA gym though?
> Tristar Gym - Wikipedia
> 
> Is rings?
> Fighting Network Rings - Wikipedia




You are making the common mistake of equating professional fighters training as being the epitome of martial arts, however the majority of their training isn't actually in martial arts but in conditioning, stamina and strength work etc. It's their will to win, dedication and their courage in getting into the arena that makes them good fighters.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> You are making the common mistake of equating professional fighters training as being the epitome of martial arts, however the majority of their training isn't actually in martial arts but in conditioning, stamina and strength work etc. It's their will to win, dedication and their courage in getting into the arena that makes them good fighters.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> You are making the common mistake of equating professional fighters training as being the epitome of martial arts, however the majority of their training isn't actually in martial arts but in conditioning, stamina and strength work etc. It's their will to win, dedication and their courage in getting into the arena that makes them good fighters.


The mental and physical toughness is martial arts training.





I have mentioned this before. People are adverse to training toughness, discipline and fitness. And then assume that people who have these qualities somehow got them through magic.

If these qualities are these deciding factors that win fights. What does that tell you about where the focus of your training should be if you want to win fights?


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> The mental and physical toughness is martial arts training.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have mentioned this before. People are adverse to training toughness, discipline and fitness. And then assume that people who have these qualities somehow got them through magic.
> 
> If these qualities are these deciding factors that win fights. What does that tell you about where the focus of your training should be if you want to win fights?




Not necessarily, martial arts training is different for different people, your definition is only one of many.
Not sure how you think a hospital doctor for example who works 80 or more hours a week in a demanding job but enjoys martial arts is going to have time to train as a professional martial artist would or a young mother with children to look after etc. etc. etc. Not everyone wants to be a professional, most people do train as hard as their lives allow them to, they aren't adverse to hard training but need to work, look after family etc. I don't think you should be demeaning people with lives by suggesting they are adverse to training toughness etc, you know nothing about their toughness. 

People who want to fight will go to the coaches that will train them, that doesn't make TMA ineffectual. MMA is TMA's joined together, many MMA fighters have come from a TMA background but need processional coaches to join their styles up so that it's fluid and works. I go on TMA seminars and will often meet MMA people who are looking for more techniques to add. Most MMA people I know don't disrespect TMA in the way you do. they understand that it's horses for course.


----------



## Yokozuna514

Tez3 said:


> George St Pierre, Bas Rutten


These guys started in Kyokushin which I believe is not really considered a TMA as it was created in the 60’s.

Tristar is definitely not a TMA gym.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Not necessarily, martial arts training is different for different people, your definition is only one of many.
> Not sure how you think a hospital doctor for example who works 80 or more hours a week in a demanding job but enjoys martial arts is going to have time to train as a professional martial artist would or a young mother with children to look after etc. etc. etc. Not everyone wants to be a professional, most people do train as hard as their lives allow them to, they aren't adverse to hard training but need to work, look after family etc. I don't think you should be demeaning people with lives by suggesting they are adverse to training toughness etc, you know nothing about their toughness.
> 
> People who want to fight will go to the coaches that will train them, that doesn't make TMA ineffectual. MMA is TMA's joined together, many MMA fighters have come from a TMA background but need processional coaches to join their styles up so that it's fluid and works. I go on TMA seminars and will often meet MMA people who are looking for more techniques to add. Most MMA people I know don't disrespect TMA in the way you do. they understand that it's horses for course.



Doesn't matter.

The fight doesn't care if you have a busy social life or work schedule.

If you don't put in the right preparation you are more likely to lose.

Professional fighters training is the epitome of martial arts training.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Doesn't matter.
> 
> The fight doesn't care if you have a busy social life or work schedule.
> 
> If you don't put in the right preparation you are more likely to lose.




How did you miss my point? 

Not every one wants to compete, competing isn't the defining standard of a martial art being effective. All martial arts can be effective. It's not that they are ineffective and MMA fighters aren't using them, they are and they are. All the martial arts techniques in MMA are TMA ones done by professional fighters. It's the fighters that make the difference not the martial art.



Yokazuna514 said:


> These guys started in Kyokushin which I believe is not really considered a TMA as it was created in the 60’s.



Just about all the TMAs aren't very old, age hasn't much to do with it.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> How did you miss my point?
> 
> Not every one wants to compete, competing isn't the defining standard of a martial art being effective. All martial arts can be effective. It's not that they are ineffective and MMA fighters aren't using them, they are and they are. All the martial arts techniques in MMA are TMA ones done by professional fighters. It's the fighters that make the difference not the martial art.



The training makes the fighters. These fit strong competitive people undergo training to be fit strong and competitive. It is not magic. That is the difference.

Mr can't train often because of life stuff. Will not be as effective a martial artist as Mr can train 6 days a week.

You point is you are trying to negotiate this very basic concept of you get out what you put in.

And you can't.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Yokazuna514 said:


> These guys started in Kyokushin which I believe is not really considered a TMA as it was created in the 60’s.
> 
> Tristar is definitely not a TMA gym.


A lot of folks don't define TMA by age. It's a matter of approach (and somewhat vague in the definition). It's certainly not necessarily the same thing as koryu.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> I would agree with you if I didn't already know that many MMA people like myself come from TMA, just about all do in the UK and Europe I've found. We don't have a wrestling culture here so in the beginning it was Judo that was trained for groundwork, then when BJJ instructors became trained up BJJ was used, we still have that strong Judo and BJJ background here. We have Olympic Judoka who run seminars for MMA fighters.
> Stand up has nearly always come from karate and TKD with Muay Thai becoming popular as well. Dan Hardy is typical, started in TKD, went onto karate, jujutsu and Judo, he in fact also trained CMA in China.



This European MMA prevalence with the TMA base is a path much less taken in the U.S. Practitioners in the USA it seems gravitate to the "MMA org." of the time.  Kinda a popularity contest.

Gregard Mousasi did so well in his latest championship fight @ Bellator.  He trains Dutch kick boxing (I think) especially, instead of with the generic MMA camp.  He looked really sharp in that bout.  I also think Scott Coker, a kick boxer? himself, aids the Bellator competitors by having a less promotion-heavy environment.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Mr can't train often because of life stuff. Will not be as effective a martial artist as Mr can train 6 days a week.


I've never heard anyone argue something contrary to this. I think Tez's point is that much of TMA is designed for Mr. Can't-train-as-often.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Well, I'm kinda a dark horse for MMA myself.  Here's an excellent vid I ran across on the dominance of boxing over karate... a mixed striking style match. When MM protagonists see this, it's no wonder the verdict is boxing defeats karate.
*Real BOXING VS. KARATE Match and Commentary (HADLEY VS VALOVICH) 1976*
18,525 views







Hadley's Peek-A-Boo Boxing
Published on Feb 15, 2018

The boxer/ commentator is excellent.  On of the better qualities he has by MMA is that he game plans his karate opponent, while it looks like the latter (to me) had no game plan beside kick & punch w moving all over.  This video also captures what I don't like about karate sparring conventions.  And why karate (so called) does not stand up against MMA.

Take note what the Peek-a-Boo boxer does to defeat the State Karate Champion.

!. Keeps his elbows in tight to block the knees to the torso.
2. Puts pressure, heavy pressure on the karate opponent.
3. Secondary effect of the heavy pressure is meant to tire the opponent.
4. Instill the psychological pressure of being hit regularly in the opponent.
5. The psychological pressure frustrates the opponent, resulting in the opponent getting more tired.
6. Looking for that 'right' opening to land that one strong right hand.

Works brilliantly, of course.

The author / boxer-narrator also mentions that Bill Lewis sought him out to train and that he did so.

My traditional karate rebuttal in next post.


----------



## ShotoNoob

The traditional karate answer to Peek-a-Boo Boxing.
*1-Step Sparring training*
3,519 views







Japan Karate-Do International
Published on Jul 7, 2016

Take the 1st 1-step technique.

1. Attacker comes in with a right straight punch.
2. Defender steps back into lunge stance / block high left.
3. Defender in same left stance / right reverse punch to midsection.

Now we can stipulate MMA lambastes this kind of sparring / training.  The point I want to make is this:

1. The karate opponent is moving randomly, jumping all around.  What kind of stance use?
2. The karate opponent is throwing limb strikes, punches and kicks with the arm & leg and not coordinated body involvement.  Hence weak strength.
3. The karate opponent's defense consists of virtually running away from the stalking boxer.  Running all around the ring.
4. The karate opponent is winging technique, throwing kicks & punches in the general direction of the boxer, again in a random-like fashion.  Now & then he waves his arms at the boxer as some sort of hole-filled shield.
5. As the fight rages on, the karate opponent unable to stop either the boxer's advances or strikes, grabs & clinches up out of desperation.

And people, MMA people look to this individual as a karate champion?  This solidifies my point earlier about the type of "TMA " person drawn to sport fighting.  The pseudo karate opponent fits to a tee.

1. Naturally athletic & talented so.
2. Wants to go out & beat up the opponent.  Win matches.  Proceeds to exert a high activity level to do just that.
3. Takes karate lessons and then proceeds to fight with the natural kind of kicks and punches we see from unschooled boxers. & kick boxers.  In other words, not karate tradition.
4. Throws out technique @t the opponent's general direction inaccurately.
5. When all else fails, uses and relies on excess mobility especially for defense and in avoiding the boxer.

My Conclusion is that the karate opponent won that State karate championship  because he was so athletically gifted, naturally strong and well coordinated that he dominated opponents of because of their lesser athletic talent.  His athletic ability on display in a karate setting convinced him and everyone else he "knew" karate.

Knew karate? IOW, the guy who went to the karate dojo, ran through all the black=belt requirements, showed he could repeat physical form, then went on to kumite & kicked and punched like everybody else in the world.  IOW, he never learned karate, never understood what he was supposed to be doing.  NO WONDER HE GOT DESTROYED BY A SAVVY BOXER.

These one steps don't work in real fight ("real boxing" in the fight video caption), MMA pans again & again.  Well his brand of pseudo-karate kumite style sure wasn't working either.  Kick boxing in pajamas, I like that dub.

I'll just close with what the 1st one step says in a manner of speaking.

1. The aggressor comes forward and throws a strike.
2. Take a step back to create some defensive space / avoid the opponent.
3. From that strong stance, block actively the strike.
4. From the new position, counter strike-reverse punch directly (to the mid-section).
5. Engage whole body mechanics throughout.

The so-called karate champion never does any of the above with any precision.  I mean this is just awful.  For sure, the boxer's skill & determined plan threw this 'karate' champion out of his game.  How MMA.

What we have learned is that TMA champion karate does not work in MMA, here against good boxing.  Or is it we have learned Mr. Kick boxer in Pajamas does not function in MMA?

A mindset of physical athletic ability & aggressive behavior so prevalent in MMA makes for poor traditional karate bedfellows.  That's what I learned.

If you can't learn what to do with one-steps, you can't learn to fight with traditional karate.  Something to ponder when we ask why TMA does not translate to MMA.

P.S. The traditional one-steps are specifically designed to handle AGGRESSION.  Just how the boxer stated he intended to proceed.
P.S.S.  Bill Wallace, middle weight karate champion of the world, went to boxing to get better at his hands.  I thought karate taught hands?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Here's the JKA interpretation of one form of kumite drills.
*JKA KARATE MASTERS: The Fighting Spirit*
28,017 views







Jason Leung
Published on Jul 2, 2017

SUBSCRIBE 16K
Old school karate footage of training in hombu dojo in japan, back in the jka days, the building of great karateka and teachers worldwide

I guess a JKA instructor question for the State Karate Champion is whether you are actually going to strike the Peek-a-Boo boxer hard or not?  Or, in the State Karate Champion's case, when, if ever?  And try not to miss most all of the time like you are are doing.  Not gonna work in MMA, well anyhow.
*Mai Shiina vs Bianca Walsleben @ 2014 Funakoshi Gichin Cup*
1,037 views







tsuruhimeja
Published on Oct 19, 2014

SUBSCRIBE 27K
The 13th Funakoshi Gichin Cup World Karate-Do Championship 2014

SEE, Japanese girls know how to do it.  Just add male strength.  The whole body's worth.  For starter's.

P.S. Hear the USA contingent cheering on their competitor?  Doesn't work.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I've never heard anyone argue something contrary to this. I think Tez's point is that much of TMA is designed for Mr. Can't-train-as-often.



Then where is the argument?

 I put out that a camp like tiger is the gold standard of martial arts training. The best martial artists doing the best training under the best coaching.

Simple as that.

Wado ryu does not have the equivalent. Most TMA,s dont.

Tez is trying to make some sort of point about that


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Then where is the argument?
> 
> I put out that a camp like tiger is the gold standard of martial arts training. The best martial artists doing the best training under the best coaching.
> 
> Simple as that.
> 
> Wado ryu does not have the equivalent. Most TMA,s dont.
> 
> Tez is trying to make some sort of point about that


I've made the point before that most of what's taught in MA - including SD-oriented schools and what I've seen in TMA - is set up for folks who don't want to commit to the highest level of training, because they have other priorities. It can be ramped up (like when I was training 10-20 hours a week), but it's still not set up for the intensity and duration of fight prep. They're designed for two different audiences.

I'll let Tez clarify the argument she's making, because I haven't kept up enough to say more than I did in my previous post.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I've made the point before that most of what's taught in MA - including SD-oriented schools and what I've seen in TMA - is set up for folks who don't want to commit to the highest level of training, because they have other priorities. It can be ramped up (like when I was training 10-20 hours a week), but it's still not set up for the intensity and duration of fight prep. They're designed for two different audiences.
> 
> I'll let Tez clarify the argument she's making, because I haven't kept up enough to say more than I did in my previous post.



Which answers the overall question as to why TMA doesn't really represent well in MMA.

And this is reflected in other endeavors. So in Australia there is a disproportionate amount of time money and effort spent on training swimming. And so Australians are disproportionately better swimmers.

If you ever wonder why Australian actors over represent in Hollywood. Resources put in.

Nida.
NIDA - Home
Wow. That is a list.
Famous National Institute Of Dramatic Art Alumni


It is not genetics or just happens to be a bunch of individuals who woke up one morning being able to swim or act.



There is a cause and effect.


----------



## Buka

ShotoNoob said:


> The traditional karate answer to Peek-a-Boo Boxing.
> *1-Step Sparring training*
> 3,519 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Japan Karate-Do International
> Published on Jul 7, 2016
> 
> Take the 1st 1-step technique.
> 
> 1. Attacker comes in with a right straight punch.
> 2. Defender steps back into lunge stance / block high left.
> 3. Defender in same left stance / right reverse punch to midsection.
> 
> Now we can stipulate MMA lambastes this kind of sparring / training.  The point I want to make is this:
> 
> 1. The karate opponent is moving randomly, jumping all around.  What kind of stance use?
> 2. The karate opponent is throwing limb strikes, punches and kicks with the arm & leg and not coordinated body involvement.  Hence weak strength.
> 3. The karate opponent's defense consists of virtually running away from the stalking boxer.  Running all around the ring.
> 4. The karate opponent is winging technique, throwing kicks & punches in the general direction of the boxer, again in a random-like fashion.  Now & then he waves his arms at the boxer as some sort of hole-filled shield.
> 5. As the fight rages on, the karate opponent unable to stop either the boxer's advances or strikes, grabs & clinches up out of desperation.
> 
> And people, MMA people look to this individual as a karate champion?  This solidifies my point earlier about the type of "TMA " person drawn to sport fighting.  The pseudo karate opponent fits to a tee.
> 
> 1. Naturally athletic & talented so.
> 2. Wants to go out & beat up the opponent.  Win matches.  Proceeds to exert a high activity level to do just that.
> 3. Takes karate lessons and then proceeds to fight with the natural kind of kicks and punches we see from unschooled boxers. & kick boxers.  In other words, not karate tradition.
> 4. Throws out technique @t the opponent's general direction inaccurately.
> 5. When all else fails, uses and relies on excess mobility especially for defense and in avoiding the boxer.
> 
> My Conclusion is that the karate opponent won that State karate championship  because he was so athletically gifted, naturally strong and well coordinated that he dominated opponents of because of their lesser athletic talent.  His athletic ability on display in a karate setting convinced him and everyone else he "knew" karate.
> 
> Knew karate? IOW, the guy who went to the karate dojo, ran through all the black=belt requirements, showed he could repeat physical form, then went on to kumite & kicked and punched like everybody else in the world.  IOW, he never learned karate, never understood what he was supposed to be doing.  NO WONDER HE GOT DESTROYED BY A SAVVY BOXER.
> 
> These one steps don't work in real fight ("real boxing" in the fight video caption), MMA pans again & again.  Well his brand of pseudo-karate kumite style sure wasn't working either.  Kick boxing in pajamas, I like that dub.
> 
> I'll just close with what the 1st one step says in a manner of speaking.
> 
> 1. The aggressor comes forward and throws a strike.
> 2. Take a step back to create some defensive space / avoid the opponent.
> 3. From that strong stance, block actively the strike.
> 4. From the new position, counter strike-reverse punch directly (to the mid-section).
> 5. Engage whole body mechanics throughout.
> 
> The so-called karate champion never does any of the above with any precision.  I mean this is just awful.  For sure, the boxer's skill & determined plan threw this 'karate' champion out of his game.  How MMA.
> 
> What we have learned is that TMA champion karate does not work in MMA, here against good boxing.  Or is it we have learned Mr. Kick boxer in Pajamas does not function in MMA?
> 
> A mindset of physical athletic ability & aggressive behavior so prevalent in MMA makes for poor traditional karate bedfellows.  That's what I learned.
> 
> If you can't learn what to do with one-steps, you can't learn to fight with traditional karate.  Something to ponder when we ask why TMA does not translate to MMA.
> 
> P.S. The traditional one-steps are specifically designed to handle AGGRESSION.  Just how the boxer stated he intended to proceed.
> P.S.S.  Bill Wallace, middle weight karate champion of the world, went to boxing to get better at his hands.  I thought karate taught hands?



You fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Then where is the argument?
> 
> I put out that a camp like tiger is the gold standard of martial arts training. The best martial artists doing the best training under the best coaching.
> 
> Simple as that.
> 
> Wado ryu does not have the equivalent. Most TMA,s dont.
> 
> Tez is trying to make some sort of point about that




No, *what you keep saying is that TMA isn't as effective as MMA*. You keep saying that MMA is trained harder than TMA's, well all professional athletes train harder than amateur ones, simple fact. I know a lot of people who train MMA 'lightly' who still have a fight a year. it's down to the person not the style.

Tiger Camp is professional, most martial artists aren't. it's isn't the epitome of martial arts at all, it's the epitome of professional fighters who do martial arts. Big difference. it's fit for it's purpose but it's not the purpose of other martial artists who train for reasons other than fighting, no comparison. As I said, you are comparing oranges to apples. Only a few people want to be pro fighters, many people who train MMA don't. Saying that because pro fighters train hard TMA is rubbish is just silly. 


Btw there's not that many Aussies in Hollywood, more Brits actually and funnily enough more Americans!


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> No, *what you keep saying is that TMA isn't as effective as MMA*. You keep saying that MMA is trained harder than TMA's, well all professional athletes train harder than amateur ones, simple fact. I know a lot of people who train MMA 'lightly' who still have a fight a year. it's down to the person not the style.
> 
> Tiger Camp is professional, most martial artists aren't. it's isn't the epitome of martial arts at all, it's the epitome of professional fighters who do martial arts. Big difference. it's fit for it's purpose but it's not the purpose of other martial artists who train for reasons other than fighting, no comparison. As I said, you are comparing oranges to apples. Only a few people want to be pro fighters, many people who train MMA don't. Saying that because pro fighters train hard TMA is rubbish is just silly.
> 
> 
> Btw there's not that many Aussies in Hollywood, more Brits actually and funnily enough more Americans!



So because mma has professional fighters. They train harder and become better martial artists.

So mma makes better martial artists.

Why doesn't TMA represent well in MMA? 

Because of the training. 

I am not sure where the conflict is.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> So because mma has professional fighters. They train harder and become better martial artists.
> 
> So mma makes better martial artists.
> 
> Why doesn't TMA represent well in MMA?
> 
> Because of the training.
> 
> I am not sure where the conflict is.




Sigh, you don't get this do you?
MMA is TMA. MMA fighters aren't 'better' martial artists, they are professional athletes, it's not a reflection on the martial arts of those who aren't professional athletes, it just means that because the pro fighters earn their living by fighting they are good at fighting within the MMA ruleset.
Putting down people because they aren't pro fighters is ridiculous.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Sigh, you don't get this do you?
> MMA is TMA. MMA fighters aren't 'better' martial artists, they are professional athletes, it's not a reflection on the martial arts of those who aren't professional athletes, it just means that because the pro fighters earn their living by fighting they are good at fighting within the MMA ruleset.
> Putting down people because they aren't pro fighters is ridiculous.



So martial artists who are good at fighting. Are not better than martial artists who are bad at fighting?

If a person has to get really good at martial arts to win a top martial arts fighting promotion. Then that is part of the vehicle that makes people better martial artists.

Is there anyone in wado-ryu training anything like the guys at tiger?


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> So martial artists who are good at fighting. Are not better than martial artists who are bad at fighting?
> 
> If a person has to get really good at martial arts to win a top martial arts fighting promotion. Then that is part of the vehicle that makes people better martial artists.
> 
> Is there anyone in wado-ryu training anything like the guys at tiger?




People who train in Wado Ryu train karate, if they aren't interested in being professional fighters why would they train like a professional fighter? 
You aren't getting this at all.

No one from a one style background will train like the people at Tiger do for MMA. If you train to be an MMA pro fighter it won't be in one style will it?  You need to stop equating professional fighters training with that of people who don't fight for a living, it doesn't make them bad fighters at all.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Which answers the overall question as to why TMA doesn't really represent well in MMA.
> 
> And this is reflected in other endeavors. So in Australia there is a disproportionate amount of time money and effort spent on training swimming. And so Australians are disproportionately better swimmers.
> 
> If you ever wonder why Australian actors over represent in Hollywood. Resources put in.
> 
> Nida.
> NIDA - Home
> Wow. That is a list.
> Famous National Institute Of Dramatic Art Alumni
> 
> 
> It is not genetics or just happens to be a bunch of individuals who woke up one morning being able to swim or act.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a cause and effect.


As I’ve said before, it’s a lot to do with what people put into it. I don’t know if something like NGA, adapted to focus on what’s effective in the cage, could produce elite fighters. I do know that something like NGA, trained with that intensity and commitment (without any other adjustment), will produce better fighters than the hobbyists like me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> So because mma has professional fighters. They train harder and become better martial artists.
> 
> So mma makes better martial artists.
> 
> Why doesn't TMA represent well in MMA?
> 
> Because of the training.
> 
> I am not sure where the conflict is.


I think this statement conflates common TMA training (Whig I was referring to - mostly hobbyists) and the elites. Elites train differently, tend to cross-train more, and focus more on fitness. I think what Tez is getting at is that MMA is an extension of TMA. I tend to see it that way, too, though not quite the same way she does.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> I think this statement conflates common TMA training (Whig I was referring to - mostly hobbyists) and the elites. Elites train differently, tend to cross-train more, and focus more on fitness. I think what Tez is getting at is that MMA is an extension of TMA. I tend to see it that way, too, though not quite the same way she does.




Well that's because I am both TMA and MMA so can see the connections easily. Those who have just 'discovered' MMA think it's the best thing since sliced bread. they haven't experienced really competitive full contact kumite or done a proper 100 man kumite so to them everything MMA is modern and better, everything TMA is old fashioned and useless. It's an old story though  and people forget that kickboxing came from karate and BJJ from judo which came from jujutsu.


----------



## Yokozuna514

gpseymour said:


> As I’ve said before, it’s a lot to do with what people put into it. I don’t know if something like NGA, adapted to focus on what’s effective in the cage, could produce elite fighters. I do know that something like NGA, trained with that intensity and commitment (without any other adjustment), will produce better fighters than the hobbyists like me.


If you never heard of your style being represented in the cage in someway then it may not be currently gee


Tez3 said:


> they haven't experienced really competitive full contact kumite or done a proper 100 man kumite


I would be interested to hear more about this Tez3.  I didn't realize anyone outside of Kyokushin did 100 man kumites.


----------



## Yokozuna514

Ignore the first part of my post#89.  It was an unfinished thought.


----------



## Tez3

Yokazuna514 said:


> If you never heard of your style being represented in the cage in someway then it may not be currently gee
> 
> I would be interested to hear more about this Tez3.  I didn't realize anyone outside of Kyokushin did 100 man kumites.




It's become 'a thing' as they like to say, I know a few places that do it if the student wants.
This place does,  DKK Karate - The Club  and produces MMA fighters as  well as karateka. Gavin Mulholland is an extremely good coach. DKK Karate - Shihan Gavin Mulholland, 6th Dan  the writeup is entirely true. Neil Grove was one of his fighters.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> Sigh, you don't get this do you?
> MMA is TMA. MMA fighters aren't 'better' martial artists, they are professional athletes, it's not a reflection on the martial arts of those who aren't professional athletes, it just means that because the pro fighters earn their living by fighting they are good at fighting within the MMA ruleset.
> Putting down people because they aren't pro fighters is ridiculous.



You're like the SJW of MA. Everyone gets a participation trophy.


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> You're like the SJW of MA. Everyone gets a participation trophy.



and you didn't do reading comprehension as school did you? You didn't understand what I wrote so you write an inane, boring and vacuous remark to make up for your lack of acumen.

I would challenge you to a battle of wits but you, sir, are unarmed.


----------



## Yokozuna514

Tez3 said:


> t's become 'a thing' as they like to say, I know a few places that do it if the student wants.
> This place does, DKK Karate - The Club and produces MMA fighters as well as karateka. Gavin Mulholland is an extremely good coach. DKK Karate - Shihan Gavin Mulholland, 6th Dan the writeup is entirely true. Neil Grove was one of his fighters.


Thanks for the link.  I went to check it out and saw that they are Goju Ryu guys.   Goju Ryu is about as close to Kyokushin that Okinawan karate comes and considering that the Sensei there started in Kyokushin, it makes perfect sense that they would introduce the 100 man kumite for those that want to test themselves that way.   

The 100 man kumite means something special to Kyokushin folks.  There are not many that have completed it successfully.


----------



## Tez3

Yokazuna514 said:


> Thanks for the link.  I went to check it out and saw that they are Goju Ryu guys.   Goju Ryu is about as close to Kyokushin that Okinawan karate comes and considering that the Sensei there started in Kyokushin, it makes perfect sense that they would introduce the 100 man kumite for those that want to test themselves that way.
> 
> The 100 man kumite means something special to Kyokushin folks.  There are not many that have completed it successfully.




They are good people at that club. I think it's become fashionable to want to do a 100 man kumite these days ( probably those MMA fighters lol) I've never seen one and personally 100 men is far too many for me . 
Fashions change in martial arts, a while back everyone thought kickboxing was the only thing that 'worked', before that JKD and 'Kung Fu'. Nothing of course worked before that


----------



## Yokozuna514

Tez3 said:


> They are good people at that club. I think it's become fashionable to want to do a 100 man kumite these days ( probably those MMA fighters lol) I've never seen one and personally 100 men is far too many for me .
> Fashions change in martial arts, a while back everyone thought kickboxing was the only thing that 'worked', before that JKD and 'Kung Fu'. Nothing of course worked before that


100 man kumite = 2-1/2 hours of continuous fighting with the only break being to change opponents.   Shihan Judd Reid is one of the latest karateka to complete it and make a documentary about his journey.   If you have never seen it, it is worth a look.  

I am sure there are other organizations that use this format as well but if you do Kyokushin and you say you did the 100 man kumite, it will be very apparent when you step on the floor.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> You fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.



That's not what Jony Hendricks said in his post-fight interview, UFC Fight Night 82.

Oh, and for all you MMA buffs, Hendricks defeated GSP and that Tristar super boxing.

I've heard all this before, including in my own dojo.  Kata is King.


----------



## ShotoNoob

FOLLOWING ON: 





Buka said:


> You fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.



Here's perhaps the correct way to state your post, to make it wholly legitimate.

FOLLOWING ON: 





Buka said:


> You *[BUKA]* fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.


----------



## ShotoNoob

AND MORE FOLLOW UP:





Buka said:


> You fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.



Here, we'll do Taiyoku kata together.  Follow along closely now.  I'm on the left; you're on the right.  What do we see with the hands up or down?


Buka said:


> You *[BUKA]* fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.


*Taikyoku Shodan - Beginner Karate Kata*
113,670 views







Twins Martial Arts
Published on Jun 12, 2015

And this is what we see in the beginner kata video.  When I'm doing the kata, my hands are up; While you're doing the kata, your hands are down.

Problem Solved!  But wait, there's more.

You see Buka, we karate traditionalist, us purists, well we have to put all the pieces of the karate puzzle together.  Then it fulfills it's potential and becomes an art, one that will destroy the conventional MMA competitor.  That's what's always in the back of my mind when I'm training karate.  So here we go with some more traditionalist stuff.
*Mai Shiina vs Bianca Walsleben @ 2014 Funakoshi Gichin Cup*
1,037 views
_[Linked earlier, page 4]
_
Time = 0:18-0:20.  Bianca launchers her offense @ 0:18.  She rushes forward with a typical alternating punch tactic to the face.  The striking exchange itself takes 1 second, at most 2.  Just as you say, Bianca gets countered square in the face by Mai. Boxer could do the same, easy right?

WRONG.  Because you are picking apart the exchange finding fault instead of what karate tradition executes.  That _clever_, MMA game planning mentality.  Now let's examine this exchange by proper traditional karate principles.  Bianca loses, so lets see what Bianca could have / should have done to win.  'Cause this is what I'm going to do to your boxer.

Number 1 :  Mai won the exchange.  So what Bianca could have done is what Mai did.  Strike more dynamically.  So even though Mai's hands are down (in your eyes), Mai clocked the oncoming boxer first & best.  Boxer's the one's who is in for a short night.

Number 2: Bianca could have done what I did in the Taiyoku (ya know, kiddy kata according to rough, tough MMA people), and blocked Mai's counter punch, then strike'd.  You were marching around in the kiddy kata like a kid, with your head wide open.  I was blocking.  And there's even more striking lessons in the kiddy kata on how the hands are used effectively in karate tradition, which then cycle us back to Number 1.

So in the kiddy kata no. 1.  We have both the karate striking trained in the way that supports what Mai did ultimately; and we have alternative B, which is to block then strike.

The problem for MMA and sport fighting people is that they don't understand karate tradition and how it works.  It's a mental discipline, not mere physical fighting technique.

Still not finished.  Peek-a-Boo Boxing, whats' good about it.


----------



## ShotoNoob

The Peek-a-Boo Boxing style is one of a whole host of boxing sub-styles.  I'm certainly no expert there.  Listening to the Peek-a-Boo videos however, one of it's describe strength's is it's form of hands up guard.  So there are different styles for a hands up guard among boxing enthusiasts.

Done right, the Peek-a-Boo boxers put up a strong guard / defense against blows to the face & head area.  Seemingly impenetrable.  This is what Boxer Joey Hadley employs so effectively against our poor representative of karate, the completely trounced State Karate Champion.  If only he had been smart enough to do what you said.  Put those hands up!  But Buka, go the the opening screen capture of that Peek-a- Boo Hadley vs. State Karate Champion Match, and will see our karate champion does put his hands up in boxer's type guard - WITH JOE HADLEY PUNCHING RIGHT THROUGH THE GUARD!

CERTAINLY, the "hands up" guard is good, sound, standard defensive practice by boxing science.  At the same time, the hands up guard has vulnerabilities of it's own accord.  It's just not reliable against a good striker.  And as we saw with Mai, good karate strikers are damn good.

Short MMA night for TMA karate?  'fraid not Buka.

Now back to Bianca vs. Mai.  The second exchange, Bianca varies her offense with a more measured striking combo akin to the boxer's jab / cross.  Mai's response (scores again for the win) starting from guard (Shotokan do have a kumite guard), validates everything I've said about Taikyoku kata and the entire traditional karate curriculum.  It begins with not challenging the masters understanding, but yours.

Box away, Buka, box away.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> As I’ve said before, it’s a lot to do with what people put into it. I don’t know if something like NGA, adapted to focus on what’s effective in the cage, could produce elite fighters. I do know that something like NGA, trained with that intensity and commitment (without any other adjustment), will produce better fighters than the hobbyists like me.



Does that happen?


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> Does that happen?


Only combat sports produce the money necessary to train in that way. Cash Rules.


----------



## Yokozuna514

ShotoNoob said:


> *Taikyoku Shodan - Beginner Karate Kata*
> 113,670 views


Interesting video you posted.   I am curious to know from your Shotokan perspective, is this the ideal form of the kata for you ?   The reason I ask is that we also do Taikyoko katas in Kyokushin and apart from the difference in hikete position which is something we have noted as being different between the two styles, I also noticed that the head block isn't as high as we would typically do it during the mae gedan barai.  There is also a question about the straightness of the back leg during the zenkutsu dachi.   There seems to be a slight bend in the back leg.   

These are not really criticisms per se but a desire to understand the Shotokan perspective.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Hendricks defeated GSP




Oh really? Fancy us not knowing that eh.

All that means is that GSP was beaten in that fight, doesn't mean the gym was bad. 
If you have a long run of winning fights it's a sign that you are fighting the wrong people, everyone who is worth their salt gets beaten now and again, if you don't challenge yourself and fight good fighters ( not ones you know you can beat) then it's pointless.
Good training is necessary but you also need good opponents.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I think this statement conflates common TMA training (Whig I was referring to - mostly hobbyists) and the elites. Elites train differently, tend to cross-train more, and focus more on fitness. I think what Tez is getting at is that MMA is an extension of TMA. I tend to see it that way, too, though not quite the same way she does.



The same. Just applied better.
Because their focus is to try to make the best martial artist they can. Rather than appeal to hobbyists.

Not everyone trains at that level. But enough do to keep high standards.

Mr comes once a week. Can train where the glass ceiling is higher. And that gives someone more opportunity.

But I still think people want their cake and eat it too. So instead of just saying tiger has a better school. (And it is better than mine). Or they produce better martial artists. And saying screw that. That is just too much work for me. I will settle for sleep ins and lesser results.

They try to twist the conversation in a way that puts their system on the same level. Just without ever having to put in the resources to actually have their system on the same level.


----------



## drop bear

Yokazuna514 said:


> Thanks for the link.  I went to check it out and saw that they are Goju Ryu guys.   Goju Ryu is about as close to Kyokushin that Okinawan karate comes and considering that the Sensei there started in Kyokushin, it makes perfect sense that they would introduce the 100 man kumite for those that want to test themselves that way.
> 
> The 100 man kumite means something special to Kyokushin folks.  There are not many that have completed it successfully.



I have mentioned this idea that where results matter. The training improves.


----------



## Yokozuna514

drop bear said:


> I have mentioned this idea that where results matter. The training improves.


I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say.  Can you elaborate ?


----------



## Buka

ShotoNoob said:


> AND MORE FOLLOW UP:
> 
> Here, we'll do Taiyoku kata together.  Follow along closely now.  I'm on the left; you're on the right.  What do we see with the hands up or down?



Actually, I'd enjoy that very much, I love learning things.

Do you ever make it out to Hawaii?


----------



## Martial D

ShotoNoob said:


> That's not what Jony Hendricks said in his post-fight interview, UFC Fight Night 82.
> 
> Oh, and for all you MMA buffs, Hendricks defeated GSP and that Tristar super boxing.
> 
> I've heard all this before, including in my own dojo.  Kata is King.


Uhh...Hendricks LOST to Thompson that night.

He fought GSP at UFC 167. And lost. 

And that was pre usada Hendricks.


----------



## drop bear

Yokazuna514 said:


> I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say.  Can you elaborate ?



If you are looking at a 100 man fight. You will be less likely to to half cook the training.

The appeal of TMA. to cater to someone who can only train once a week. Is less important than getting this guy ready.

The process of which will make the guy a better martial artist.


----------



## Martial D

Tez3 said:


> Oh really? Fancy us not knowing that eh.
> 
> All that means is that GSP was beaten in that fight, doesn't mean the gym was bad.



Johnny Hendricks doesn't own a victory over GSP. They fought once to a decision, which went to george.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> Actually, I'd enjoy that very much, I love learning things.
> 
> Do you ever make it out to Hawaii?



No.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Martial D said:


> Uhh...Hendricks LOST to Thompson that night.
> 
> He fought GSP at UFC 167. And lost.
> 
> And that was pre usada Hendricks.



Some good clarifications there.


----------



## Buka

ShotoNoob said:


> No.



Too bad, my loss. 

Where are you from?


----------



## Martial D

ShotoNoob said:


> Some good clarifications there.


Accuracy is important. Without it, we might as well be standing on our heads and speaking out the other end.


----------



## Yokozuna514

drop bear said:


> If you are looking at a 100 man fight. You will be less likely to to half cook the training.
> 
> The appeal of TMA. to cater to someone who can only train once a week. Is less important than getting this guy ready.
> 
> The process of which will make the guy a better martial artist.


Shihan Judd Reid has a documentary out about his prep and performance in the 100 man kumite.  He also wrote a book about it.   It is very interesting to see how the approach he took to prepare.  He is not a part timer.  No one who wants to survive a 100 man kumite is a part timer.  That would not be a good idea.

There are MA schools for every type of character under the sun if you look for them.   I am sure you will agree that the amount of time on the floor doing proper training has a direct affect on your performance.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Oh really? Fancy us not knowing that eh.
> 
> All that means is that GSP was beaten in that fight, doesn't mean the gym was bad.
> If you have a long run of winning fights it's a sign that you are fighting the wrong people, everyone who is worth their salt gets beaten now and again, if you don't challenge yourself and fight good fighters ( not ones you know you can beat) then it's pointless.
> Good training is necessary but you also need good opponents.



Sure.  Yet we Internet martial artists quote MMA wins & loses all the time.  In the proper context, they can support an argument.  It's very problematic to capture all the dynamics and convey all that over the INTERNET at the same too.

I can go along with all of your quote, but it's not comprehensive.  The divide (and I noticed you like / funny) is you have a full contact mentality while I don't.  I'm in the kata camp.  You're in the emphasis on sparring camp.  There's a difference in principle on how best to approach traditional martial arts.

I've had me, myself challenged over the years by the aggressive, muay thai, boxing, rough tough karate contingent.  There's no need to travel to Hawaii or continually prove what I have achieved against every doubter in the world.  It's up to the doubters to challenge themselves.  And I've won those challenges for the most part.  My emphasis, how a non-athlete like me (not the State karate champion physical specimen @ all) was on how I trained.  And that's largely by what was presented in traditional martial arts schools.

If you are curious on how it works in effect, it's the same as Mai.  I strike the opponent more dynamically than they can react.  I can also support striking with this strange karate thing called blocking.  One doesn't see frequent active blocking in formal karate kumite., yet the traditional karate curriculum's and manuals all provide for it.  Including Renee's Okinawan kata.  Maybe blocks work.

People have strong opinions and that's fine.  The far majority of those challenging mine (including instructors, tournament participants) have fallen against me in my venue.  Often too, those of higher skill than me, typically kung fu stylists, we don't bother to spar because we understand there is no point because of the mis-match in skills.

Kung fu stylists in my area conventionally and traditionally spend more time training the preparatory components of the curriculum, in basics, forms, one-step or self defense technicals, than sparring.  My traditional karate training model follows along that lines which is also the pre-Shotokan era model traditionally speaking.

If karate practitioners want to practice say, Kyo and use the hands up guard, that's all legit in my book.  It's just a departure from the traditional karate model in general, and not the kind of karate guard Kyo's either base art of Shotokan employs or Goju Ryu employed.  I hold both types work, I believe the traditional karate guard is more effective once skilled.  That's an example of tradition versus the more modern Kyo full contact paractice.


----------



## Buka

@ShotoNoob, have you ever trained in boxing?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Martial D said:


> Accuracy is important. Without it, we might as well be standing on our heads and speaking out the other end.



Right, same applies to reviewing what I've advocated.  And not by one-liners.

I don't expect the majority or say the full contact crowd, or say, GPSeymour to jump on board with my interpretations.  My material is posted for the thoughtful to consider.

How traditional karate interpreted & trained properly would excel rather than fail in MMA I've posted considerable explanatory material w detailed explanations.  That is all.


Buka said:


> Too bad, my loss.
> 
> Where are you from?



Well, perhaps you're doing quite well on your own.  You assert yourself with great confidence.

I've trained a few karate students.  They drop out though because it takes a much greater commitment personally to do what I do.  Perhaps a better anecdote I will share is the assistant head instructor at my current dojo demonstrated his great fighting skills to me on my arrival.  In a sparring session.  He thought I was a wimp.  He much much bigger, taller, heavier than me of course.  I just kinda remained passive, so silly foisting such a thing on a new arrival.

Later on, when he witnessed me in testing, he did a 90 degree.  About 5-6 months in when he required me to free spar in class one day, and I don't care for free sparring for a whole number of reasons, he insisted.  So I challenged him to be by partner and he declined.  Refused.  Nada, no way.

Then even later, 'cause you know tournaments are big with all competitive types like 'him,' he came back from some losses and requested that I help him prepare for the next tournament.  Now I bowed out.  He did a 180 there.  Too late.  He should have respected what I talked about from the start, being a big important strong big guy upper-level black-belt instructor.

BTW: I sized up that assistant head instructor's skill as mediocre when I met him.  Not a tournament winner at all. knowing the curriculum content-wise, which he did very well, is not assimilating the curriculum.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> @ShotoNoob, have you ever trained in boxing?



No, no really.  But I've encountered them in dojos.  Boxers as a group typically do well against the average karateka.  I'm not average.

Furthermore, I have no desire to train boxing.  Mental strength is where I'm at.  Boxers have physical talents often I don't possess naturally.  I'm Mai.  I'm more dynamic.

Fighting a boxer whose skilled isn't a free ride.  I only prevail because my mind is stronger hence my technique is superior in effect.  Like Mai.  If I'm not on my game, colloquially speaking, a good, skilled boxer can / will take you apart, just as we see on You tube.  Or Machida against Rua, Match 2, Round 1.  Machida Era done.

Theoretically speaking, I don't out strike the boxer, I out think him.  See the traditional karate manual for the entire portfolio of mental strengths & skills which that 'thinking' encompasses.  It's both broad & deep in principle.

Mai in action, essentially.  How does Mai know how & when to strike and so fast,strong & accurately @ an effective target.  It's explained in the traditional karate curriculum.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> But I still think people want their cake and eat it too. So instead of just saying tiger has a better school. (And it is better than mine). Or they produce better martial artists. And saying screw that. That is just too much work for me. I will settle for sleep ins and lesser results.
> 
> They try to twist the conversation in a way that puts their system on the same level. Just without ever having to put in the resources to actually have their system on the same level.




That doesn't make sense. someone who doesn't want to be a pro fighter doesn't have to go to a pro gym, it's not about being lazy or staying it bed, it's about what you want out of martial arts.

It's not people 'twisting things to put their organisations on the same level' at all, it's that not all organisations want to turn out pro MMA fighters. How can you compare a karate system for civilian unarmed self defence ( which is for amateurs) with a pro MMA gym (for people who want to fight for a career)? You could conceivably compare a karate class with a class of people doing MMA just to be able to do a martial art and have no intention of ever competing in an MMA fight. 
It's a non argument, you don't compare people who hack out on horses because they love their horses with jockey's riding in races, why would you. Two different things even though both are trying to be the best they can.... at different things. Do we also compare first aiders with brain surgeons? Both good at what they do but what they do is different.

Just another excuse for TMA bashing.

Of course if you want to talk about karate techniques that are being done by MMA fighters...………………...


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> I'm in the kata camp. You're in the emphasis on sparring camp. There's a difference in principle on how best to approach traditional martial arts.



Actually you are quite incorrect, I have done full contact kumite but I also do a lot of kata and MMA.


----------



## Buka

God, I so love martial Arts.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> @ShotoNoob, have you ever trained in boxing?


BTW Buka, We have a contingent of BBJ schools here.  I got to talking to a BJJ brown-belt one day.  Naturally the whole grappling vs. striking issue came up.

To make a long story short, and of course we were talking in person, he GOT IT, on the dynamic striking.  How is would shut down the advance of a BJJ stylist.  Shut down anyone.  The potential, never a guarantee.

BJJ does tons of rolling.  I physically expressed my striking movement, he got the sense how dynamic in application that would be, which then the opponent just can't effectively (very difficult  to) react to.  So I think all that physical encounter type interaction he had in BJJ, what he did and saw and experienced was not described or confined compared to my whole body action.

Some get it, most don't.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Actually you are quite incorrect, I have done full contact kumite but I also do a lot of kata and MMA.


Ah, no.  I recognize you practice the curriculum.  Your description of your curriculum is more sparring devoted & fuller contact emphasis.  And that's legitimate, I explained how I concurred, and said how I valued your particular schools training regimen.  Every one is going to vary and select and do what supports their person and intended application.

I think you're spot on for MMA, which is the thread topic.  I would propose, and I believe I stated this, that the USA MMA competitors should do more investigative work on your training regimen / that approach, instead of these 'name' USA MMA camps.  Europe according to what you wrote, European MMA competitors do a better job on that score.

Taking your case, thinking globally we would have a higher echelon of MMA competitors in the sport.  Perhaps Gregard Mousasi is one example.  Machida would be in for a tough time should they rematch, IMO.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Your description of your curriculum is more sparring devoted & fuller contact emphasis




Er no, I didn't put up any curriculum nor described one. I said we spar, I didn't say at all it was sparring devoted, it's not. I didn't say it was 'fuller contact oriented' either. I think you have the wrong end of the stick here.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Yokazuna514 said:


> Interesting video you posted.   I am curious to know from your Shotokan perspective,



I'm not a Shotokan stylist.  I personally can't stand Shotokan.  One reason though that I refer to Shotokan is it's very physical in it's practice; hence ,very practical and in line with MMA sport action.

Another reason I refer to Shotokan is that it is most popular karate worldwide, and dominant in Japan.  Accordingly, you are referencing a large group of karate practitioners and accordingly a very large amount of material written and posted on line.

Moreover, just because I have a personal preference for another style or styles over Shotokan, that in  no way means I can't learn and adsorb what those in another style represent for traditional karate, by and what they have accomplished and achieved.  Like Mai.



Yokazuna514 said:


> is this the ideal form of the kata for you ?


Your question is very, very good.  I shortened it because now you are really getting into the meat of how to practice traditional karate, in order to realize it's full benefit.

The short answer to your question is yes.  But yet that is wrong.  For a couple of reasons.  In my judgment, Shotokan is practiced with too much physical strength and with too aggressive a mindset.  This then weakens or dilutes the YES, which is still true in the broadest, overall principle.

OTOH, there are benefits and advantages to practicing Shotokan's style compared to say TKD.  Shotokan is very good for conditioning the body physically yet naturally in a well rounded way.  It's specifically designed to do so.  It's aggressive demeanor forces one to take action, get out there and really do the technique, put yourself and your body into it.  So much of the weak karateka physically could take a lesson from Shotokan.  Get yourself activated both mentally & physically.

The best to approach traditional karate is to really ask yourself, what is it trying to do and then HOW?

My personal judgement is that Taikyou kata is not the best kata form for me, or karate in general.   Because of some of the qualifiers I've set out above.  This judgement, however, is further moderated by how one within the Shotokan style, actually practices kata. For instance, you will see kata on You tube, practiced "slow'" and "fast."  Why?  Which is best?  Why again?

Once one realizes that kata in essense is a mental exercise, you will be able to begin to understand what kata does and how it works and the why's?  Kata (and karate) start out physical, look physical, use the physical body; yet the mind, your thinking becomes the ultimated driver.  This answers the YES when I started out.



Yokazuna514 said:


> The reason I ask is that we also do Taikyoko katas in Kyokushin and apart from the difference in hikete position which is something we have noted as being different between the two styles, I also noticed that the head block isn't as high as we would typically do it during the mae gedan barai.  There is also a question about the straightness of the back leg during the zenkutsu dachi.   There seems to be a slight bend in the back leg.



Now again, your getting into the highly technical, and highly conceptual principles of those masters who designed the styles.  Why I use Shotokan another reason is that I believe Gichin Funakoshi was an academic who sought to isolate out the hierarchy of principles which power traditional karate and give rise to it's strength, over athletic type training.  

A vague answer is the Kyo art & practitioner, being more centered on the sparring, fighting emphasis, altered or modified the structure of Shotokan to make it, in their view, more pragmatic and practical for those purposes.  Whether or not Kyo achieves that pragmatism, requires rigorous analysis of what drives karate and what those principle drivers are... before changes can be competently made or assessed.  So now you are back to starting with the 1st modern, Japanese karate style, Shotokan karate.



> These are not really criticisms per se but a desire to understand the Shotokan perspective.



This is wise.  IMO, very wise.  Gichin Funakoshi is an under-appreciated martial artist.  A skinny little bookworm who took Okinawan karate and fostered it's acceptance across the board practice in Japan and popularity all over the world.  provided the basis for many other Japanese, Korean and American karate styles.

Far from perfect he was... his achievement vastly overlooked by todays' marital artists.  He was a thinker.  I'll show you, post below.


----------



## ShotoNoob

SHOTOKAN KARATE'S 20 PRECEPTS.

*The 20 Guiding Precepts of Shotokan Karate-Do*
1,218 views







Lotus Nei Gong International
Published on Nov 24, 2015

SUBSCRIBE 6.5K
_Though no longer a Karate-Do practitioner myself, the 20 guiding precepts of Karate by Gishin Funakoshi were a big influence on my practice in the 'early days'. Here are the precepts with my father Paul Mitchell training alongside them_
'-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMA makes fun of this feel good, tuity fruity kinda experience.  And MMA certainly has a point that feeding our personal emotional needs a good fighter doesn't define.  Tuity fruity aside... run down this list and Compare to say Mike Winkeljohn's little talks.

I mean Shotokan is attempting to cover the world of philosophical yet critical and important set of theorems on how to consummate becoming a top marital artist.  It's a confusing, broad yet vauge, assorted, mis-mass of all kind of principles for the conduct of traditional karate practice.  For the art to accomplish what it can.

There's psychological concepts in here.  Constant reference to the mind.  Hardly a comprehensive text book(s)  answer we have in higher education.  What this does though, is try to get you to think about what you ought to be doing in karate practice.

*The 20 Precepts of Gichin Funakoshi*

Karate begins with courtesy and ends with courtesy.
There is no first attack in Karate.
Karate is an aid to justice.
First control yourself before attempting to control others.
Spirit first, technique second.
Always be ready to release your mind.
Accidents arise from negligence.
Do not think that Karate training is only in the dojo.
It will take your entire life to learn Karate; there is no limit.
Put your everyday living into Karate and you will find "Myo" (subtle secrets).
Karate is like boiling water. If you do not heat it constantly, it will cool.
Do not think that you have to win, think rather that you do not have to lose.
Victory depends on your ability to distinguish vulnerable points from invulnerable ones.
The battle is according to how you move guarded and unguarded (move according to your opponent).
Think of your hands and feet as swords.
When you leave home, think that you have numerous opponents waiting for you. It is your behaviour that invites trouble from them.
Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced.
Practicing a kata is one thing, engaging in a real fight is another.
Do not forget to correctly apply: strength and weakness of power, stretching and contraction of the body and slowness and speed of techniques.
Always think and devise ways to live the precepts every day.
Courtesy of English Shotokan Academy

When your accept or realize that this is what is embodied in Taikyoku kata, this is what you are exercising when you train Taikyoku kata, you will understand how it can be said, as a mater of  principle,  Taikyoku kata is the ultimated kata.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> The same. Just applied better.
> Because their focus is to try to make the best martial artist they can. Rather than appeal to hobbyists.
> 
> Not everyone trains at that level. But enough do to keep high standards.
> 
> Mr comes once a week. Can train where the glass ceiling is higher. And that gives someone more opportunity.
> 
> But I still think people want their cake and eat it too. So instead of just saying tiger has a better school. (And it is better than mine). Or they produce better martial artists. And saying screw that. That is just too much work for me. I will settle for sleep ins and lesser results.
> 
> They try to twist the conversation in a way that puts their system on the same level. Just without ever having to put in the resources to actually have their system on the same level.



Training is not the art.


----------



## Martial D

This is hilarious.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Yokazuna514 said:


> The reason I ask is that we also do Taikyoko katas in Kyokushin and apart from the difference in hikete position which is something we have noted as being different between the two styles, I also noticed that the head block isn't as high as we would typically do it during the mae gedan barai.  There is also a question about the straightness of the back leg during the zenkutsu dachi.   There seems to be a slight bend in the back leg.
> 
> These are not really criticisms per se but a desire to understand the Shotokan perspective.



Now with the background on kata I have posted, examine or re-examine your question about the technical differences between the Taikyoku kata of Shotokan, and the Taikyoku kata of Kyokushin.  Compare and contrast the similarities and the differences, and then analyze the differences in the context of the similarities.

I will say that in terms of chamber or hikete, the Chinese tend to post on the hip.  The Japanese karates at the waist.  The Korean karates at the ribs.  They all have reasons or adaptations. Study what / determine the purpose chambering and then the reasons for such adaptations.  My suggestion.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Er no, I didn't put up any curriculum nor described one. I said we spar, I didn't say at all it was sparring devoted, it's not. I didn't say it was 'fuller contact oriented' either. I think you have the wrong end of the stick here.



"didn't ,didn't ,wrong," I gave much more detailed descriptive postings acknowledging the substance of your postings.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> That doesn't make sense. someone who doesn't want to be a pro fighter doesn't have to go to a pro gym, it's not about being lazy or staying it bed, it's about what you want out of martial arts.
> 
> It's not people 'twisting things to put their organisations on the same level' at all, it's that not all organisations want to turn out pro MMA fighters. How can you compare a karate system for civilian unarmed self defence ( which is for amateurs) with a pro MMA gym (for people who want to fight for a career)? You could conceivably compare a karate class with a class of people doing MMA just to be able to do a martial art and have no intention of ever competing in an MMA fight.
> It's a non argument, you don't compare people who hack out on horses because they love their horses with jockey's riding in races, why would you. Two different things even though both are trying to be the best they can.... at different things. Do we also compare first aiders with brain surgeons? Both good at what they do but what they do is different.
> 
> Just another excuse for TMA bashing.
> 
> Of course if you want to talk about karate techniques that are being done by MMA fighters...………………...



Of course you can compare these systems.

You compare it by seeing how the professionals do it better.

People who hack out on horses would ride better if they trained more like jockeys.

If people looked at professional mma fighters and compared how they trained they would become better at civilian self defense.

You can compare apples and better apples.


----------



## drop bear

DaveB said:


> Training is not the art.



Yeah. I was isolating just the training. Because there is this disparity before we even factor in the art.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I've never heard anyone argue something contrary to this. I think Tez's point is that much of TMA is designed for Mr. Can't-train-as-often.



So nobody is arguing this?


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> 100 man kumite = 2-1/2 hours of continuous fighting with the only break being to change opponents.   Shihan Judd Reid is one of the latest karateka to complete it and make a documentary about his journey.   If you have never seen it, it is worth a look.
> 
> I am sure there are other organizations that use this format as well but if you do Kyokushin and you say you did the 100 man kumite, it will be very apparent when you step on the floor.


Yep Shihan Judd's was incredible... he holds camps every year pretty close to where I live, have not gone on one though.

But yeah the 100 man kumite is something very special in Kyokushin and it's probably one of the most difficult challenges in MA altogether... absolutely brutal... and I think you can put in interest to do it but have to be invited. A Sensei in our branch was invited to do the 50 man kumite last year, was amazing...


----------



## DaveB

Martial D said:


> This is hilarious.


Which bit?


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> "didn't ,didn't ,wrong," I gave much more detailed descriptive postings acknowledging the substance of your postings.




and now you have lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about.




drop bear said:


> People who hack out on horses would ride better if they trained more like jockeys.



No absolutely not, jockeys are actually appalling riders. Most can't do a rising trot, cannot do the aids, fall off when 'normal' riders don't. Flat jockeys can't jump, jump jockeys barely can they can only do it on racehorses who can't jump properly either. (there's a reason racehorse have to be retrained) Jockeys cannot do dressage, nor can they actually ride long ie properly. Most times they cannot ride on a normal saddle and stirrups. Only those jockeys who learnt to ride as children from a proper instructor and hack out can actually ride but there's not a lot of them, William Buick is one I can think of he started the traditional way despite his father being a jockey.
Jockey's training consists of starving themselves day in and day out, some weight training ( normal riders get this mucking out and throwing bales of straw and hay around) and riding out in the mornings. Riders who hack out have invariably learnt to ride properly and riding out keeps them fit. They are miles better horsemen and women than jockeys.


----------



## Headhunter

Tez3 said:


> and now you have lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No absolutely not, jockeys are actually appalling riders. Most can't do a rising trot, cannot do the aids, fall off when 'normal' riders don't. Flat jockeys can't jump, jump jockeys barely can they can only do it on racehorses who can't jump properly either. (there's a reason racehorse have to be retrained) Jockeys cannot do dressage, nor can they actually ride long ie properly. Most times they cannot ride on a normal saddle and stirrups. Only those jockeys who learnt to ride as children from a proper instructor and hack out can actually ride but there's not a lot of them, William Buick is one I can think of he started the traditional way despite his father being a jockey.
> Jockey's training consists of starving themselves day in and day out, some weight training ( normal riders get this mucking out and throwing bales of straw and hay around) and riding out in the mornings. Riders who hack out have invariably learnt to ride properly and riding out keeps them fit. They are miles better horsemen and women than jockeys.


It's quite funny the guy talking the most trash is a guy called shotoNOOB and his profile picture is wearing a white belt


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> That's not what Jony Hendricks said in his post-fight interview, UFC Fight Night 82.
> 
> Oh, and for all you MMA buffs, Hendricks defeated GSP and that Tristar super boxing.
> 
> I've heard all this before, including in my own dojo.  Kata is King.


Nope actually Gsp beat Hendricks by decision. Do your homework. Otherwise you look stupid....and you don't need any help with that


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> If people looked at professional mma fighters and compared how they trained they would become better at civilian self defense.



So you want people who have careers other than pro fighting to train full time because you think it will make them better at self defence designed for people who cannot train full time. of course though you always make the assumption that TMA don't train hard within their style,  plenty of TMA train harder that amateur MMA people a lot of whom never take a fight. It, as always, is more down to individuals than styles.





Headhunter said:


> Nope actually Gsp beat Hendricks by decision. Do your homework. Otherwise you look stupid....and you don't need any help with that



I find much of the posts he puts up confusing. I've never put up a syllabus of the Wado Ryu training so am not sure why he thinks it's all sparring. As I also do MMA training it's possible he's confused the two which is, to be honest, a very hard thing to do.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Yep Shihan Judd's was incredible... he holds camps every year pretty close to where I live, have not gone on one though.
> 
> But yeah the 100 man kumite is something very special in Kyokushin and it's probably one of the most difficult challenges in MA altogether... absolutely brutal... and I think you can put in interest to do it but have to be invited. A Sensei in our branch was invited to do the 50 man kumite last year, was amazing...


If your school encourages training at other organizations and you live near Shihan Judd’s school, Why don’t you you the camp ?   

It’s an uchi deschi experience for 5 days.  Incredible opportunity to learn from someone who has done some amazing things.


----------



## Yokozuna514

ShotoNoob said:


> I'm not a Shotokan stylist. I personally can't stand Shotokan.


You do not do Shotokan and can’t stand it but you are talking about it ?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> So you want people who have careers other than pro fighting to train full time because you think it will make them better at self defence designed for people who cannot train full time. of course though you always make the assumption that TMA don't train hard within their style, plenty of TMA train harder that amateur MMA people a lot of whom never take a fight. It, as always, is more down to individuals than styles.




People can do what they want. But the more effective their training is the better a martial artist they will become.

If results mattered in self defence then yes I would say train full time. 

If the results are more down to the individual than the style. It is an indication the style isn't working.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> If your school encourages training at other organizations and you live near Shihan Judd’s school, Why don’t you you the camp ?
> 
> It’s an uchi deschi experience for 5 days.  Incredible opportunity to learn from someone who has done some amazing things.



I'm no longer with Kyokushin, but I still help teach the kid's classes at my old dojo.

Yeah the camp is held not too far from me (and it's not uchi deshi style one that he holds in Thailand, but a 2-3 day one), and I've definitely considered it, but honestly I'm just not well enough to do it (have been unwell for more than a year). Would be far too intense for me at the moment, and am trying to leave behind that style of training, as educational as it would be. Would be awesome though...


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> If the results are more down to the individual than the style. It is an indication the style isn't working.



So you have a fat lazy guy who trains MMA once a week and is useless so it's the style's fault, there's someone who only trains Muay Thai when he feels like it and is a lousy fighter but it's Muay Thai's fault? That is an amusing thought but complete rubbish.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Nope actually Gsp beat Hendricks by decision. Do your homework. Otherwise you look stupid....and you don't need any help with that


Jockey.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Nope actually Gsp beat Hendricks by decision. Do your homework. Otherwise you look stupid....and you don't need any help with that



Acknowledged,_ INTERNET master..._


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> and now you have lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about.



Jockey.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Yokazuna514 said:


> You do not do Shotokan and can’t stand it but you are talking about it ?



Yes, stupid.  How'd you come on on your Shotokan, Kyo kata comparison.  No answer, I see.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Jockey.


I'm confused is that meant to be an insult or do you think I'm a guy who rides a horse


----------



## Tez3

Headhunter said:


> I'm confused is that meant to be an insult or do you think I'm a guy who rides a horse




I think we are both supposed to know what he means, sort of by mind reading or 'far seeing', I don't know about you but it's not working for me!


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I think this statement conflates common TMA training (Whig I was referring to - mostly hobbyists) and the elites. Elites train differently, tend to cross-train more, and focus more on fitness. I think what Tez is getting at is that MMA is an extension of TMA. I tend to see it that way, too, though not quite the same way she does.


If you took 300 regular people, sent 100 to a school that trains "tma" and 100 to a school that trains MMA or even some other combat sport (wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ), and then 100 who don't  train at all as a control.  The two groups who train both train 3 nights each week for 90 minutes.  After a year, how do you think the three groups would fare in a fight?  To be clear, I'm not talking about professional athletes or elite athletes or even people who are athletically inclined.

MMA is a training model.  The difference in the training model is exactly what DB is pointing to.  To say that MMA is an extension of TMA is a copout, like when Someone brags about how their cousin is successful, implying that they are also successful by proxy, or that they could also be successful if they wanted to be, while dismissing the hard work involved with success.  Take the doctor example.  A guy who works 80 hours at the hospital isn't going to become a great martial artist.  Probably developing some real skill as a doctor, though.  That person is making a choice.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> No, *what you keep saying is that TMA isn't as effective as MMA*. You keep saying that MMA is trained harder than TMA's, well all professional athletes train harder than amateur ones, simple fact. I know a lot of people who train MMA 'lightly' who still have a fight a year. it's down to the person not the style.
> 
> Tiger Camp is professional, most martial artists aren't. it's isn't the epitome of martial arts at all, it's the epitome of professional fighters who do martial arts. Big difference. it's fit for it's purpose but it's not the purpose of other martial artists who train for reasons other than fighting, no comparison. As I said, you are comparing oranges to apples. Only a few people want to be pro fighters, many people who train MMA don't. Saying that because pro fighters train hard TMA is rubbish is just silly.
> 
> 
> Btw there's not that many Aussies in Hollywood, more Brits actually and funnily enough more Americans!


And all of your American accents stink! . The Hemsworths are the worst!

Also, most who train MMA are not pros.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> I'm confused is that meant to be an insult or do you think I'm a guy who rides a horse



Your are confused, the admission confirms.  Jockey, it's simple & straightforward.  How you like it.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Your are confused, the admission confirms.  Jockey, it's simple & straightforward.  How you like it.


All I know is where I'm from a jockey is a guy who races horses so if that's your insult you need to try harder


----------



## Steve

Headhunter said:


> All I know is where I'm from a jockey is a guy who races horses so if that's your insult you need to try harder


That is what I think a jockey is, too.


----------



## Headhunter

Steve said:


> That is what I think a jockey is, too.


Yeah so have no idea how it's meant to be an insult


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> All I know is where I'm from a jockey is a guy who races horses so if that's your insult you need to try harder




No way, we're on the very same page, bro.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> No way, we're on the very same page, bro.


Okay so why on earth are you calling both me and tez a jockey....it makes no sense in any context at all


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Okay so why on earth are you calling both me and tez a jockey....it makes no sense in any context at all



Following along.  You know, your posts.  What I added is Tez from what I can tell here has effective striking for MMA.  Do you agree with my opinion?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> And all of your American accents stink! . The Hemsworths are the worst!
> 
> *Also, most who train MMA are not pros.*



I felt the same way.  Some of those fighting at the pro MMA level aren't well equipped to do so either.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Following along.  You know, your posts.  What I added is Tez from what I can tell here has effective striking for MMA.  Do you agree with my opinion?


Okay I'm done here


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> I think we are both supposed to know what he means, sort of by mind reading or 'far seeing', I don't know about you but it's not working for me!



Not a mystery to me, from how you described your own training.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> If you took 300 regular people, sent 100 to a school that trains "tma" and 100 to a school that trains MMA or even some other combat sport (wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ), and then 100 who don't  train at all as a control.  The two groups who train both train 3 nights each week for 90 minutes.  After a year, how do you think the three groups would fare in a fight?  To be clear, I'm not talking about professional athletes or elite athletes or even people who are athletically inclined.



I'll pipe in.  IMHO, the MMA camp would have the higher win rate, based on your scenario.  You left out some relevant variables though which have been posted, spelled out  by other pro-MMA members.  As well as the sophistication of the comparative arts.



Steve said:


> MMA is a training model.  The difference in the training model is exactly what DB is pointing to.  To say that MMA is an extension of TMA is a copout, like when Someone brags about how their cousin is successful, implying that they are also successful by proxy, or that they could also be successful if they wanted to be, while dismissing the hard work involved with success.  Take the doctor example.  A guy who works 80 hours at the hospital isn't going to become a great martial artist.  Probably developing some real skill as a doctor, though.  That person is making a choice.



This all makes sense, I think.  Those that train harder (and smarter) come out better.  Are people still hung up on this common sense.


----------



## Dirty Dog

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
It's sad to see a thread that started out very interesting degenerate into name calling and sniping.
It's going to be even sadder when the thread is locked and people start finding notices that they've earned some infraction points, been temporarily banned, or permanently banned.
If you'd like to avoid this, then I would strongly suggest that the nastiness stop. Now.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Not a mystery to me, from how you described your own training.




I'm sorry but I really don't know what you mean, calling me a jockey is confusing, both my daughter and son in law are in the horse racing industry, I am a very proficient rider having competed in eventing so it is a very confusing post. I haven't described my own training at all, I've trained several different martial arts and you really have me confused, can you please explain properly and within the rules.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> So you have a fat lazy guy who trains MMA once a week and is useless so it's the style's fault, there's someone who only trains Muay Thai when he feels like it and is a lousy fighter but it's Muay Thai's fault? That is an amusing thought but complete rubbish.



One fat lazy guy does not make a trend. If the martial art consistantly puts out good martial artists. Then that is the fault of the martial art.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> I'm sorry but I really don't know what you mean, calling me a jockey is confusing, both my daughter and son in law are in the horse racing industry, I am a very proficient rider having competed in eventing so it is a very confusing post....



I got that you know how to navigate that business.  Skilled like a jockey.  Kept it very simple.


----------



## Yokozuna514

ShotoNoob said:


> Yes, stupid.  How'd you come on on your Shotokan, Kyo kata comparison.  No answer, I see.



I find this comment amusing and typical of people who have only mastered keyboard jitsu.

We can all do research on the net.  Why I come here is to meet others who also train so we can exchange perspectives and learn from one another.  The only caveat I have is that people are actually training in the art they are speaking about in an authoritative manner.

If you have no personal training experience than your words ring pretty hollow to me.   Call me whatever you like but I won’t be responding to you any longer as you clearly have no respect for someone that actually trains in Kyokusin.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Yokazuna514 said:


> I find this comment amusing and typical of people who have only mastered keyboard jitsu.



As there is no substance in your reply, then this applies to you.



Yokazuna514 said:


> We can all do research on the net.  Why I come here is to meet others who also train so we can exchange perspectives and learn from one another.  The only caveat I have is that people are actually training in the art they are speaking about in an authoritative manner.



You haven't responded to the substance of even one question.  Yet you pose as an authority.



Yokazuna514 said:


> If you have no personal training experience than your words ring pretty hollow to me.   Call me whatever you like but I won’t be responding to you any longer as you clearly have no respect for someone that actually trains in Kyokusin.



If you,,, hollow words.  There is zero substance in this reply.  It'a a throwing shade post.  "clearly."

And you never did respond with any material.  So your final statement is nothing new.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> I'm no longer with Kyokushin, but I still help teach the kid's classes at my old dojo.
> 
> Yeah the camp is held not too far from me (and it's not uchi deshi style one that he holds in Thailand, but a 2-3 day one), and I've definitely considered it, but honestly I'm just not well enough to do it (have been unwell for more than a year). Would be far too intense for me at the moment, and am trying to leave behind that style of training, as educational as it would be. Would be awesome though...


Sorry to hear about that.  Best wishes for a speedy recovery.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> I got that you know how to navigate that business.  Skilled like a jockey.  Kept it very simple.




I suspect I'm being insulted here. When you say 'that business' I still have no idea what you mean. I also don't know what you think my martial arts training is. Still very confusing.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> One fat lazy guy does not make a trend. If the martial art consistantly puts out good martial artists. Then that is the fault of the martial art.




There's thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of good martial artists out there from all different styles. You are just biased, which is fine because at least I understand what you are saying  don't agree of course but that's also fine.


----------



## Hanzou

FriedRice said:


>



Nice vid!


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> There's thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of good martial artists out there from all different styles. You are just biased, which is fine because at least I understand what you are saying  don't agree of course but that's also fine.



Not really. If I was biased I would be saying Whitsunday martial arts has totally the best system. We just have a different training focus.

And then I would make up a bunch of excuses as to why.

I am not a pro fighter.
I have to work.
I have to cater for fat lazy unmotivated people

So in reality tiger isn't a better system. It is the individual. We are really training the same. It is a genetics issue.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> So in reality tiger isn't a better system. It is the individual. We are really training the same. It is a genetics issue.




Really, it's getting tiresome how you are playing your so called verbal sparring game and twisting what is said into something else. Well, you will have to play with yourself now because I'm off to drive my daughter to the airport to catch her flight to Melbourne and I really can't be bothered playing your game anymore.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Really, it's getting tiresome how you are playing your so called verbal sparring game and twisting what is said into something else. Well, you will have to play with yourself now because I'm off to drive my daughter to the airport to catch her flight to Melbourne and I really can't be bothered playing your game anymore.



Was it skribs or pdg where you wouldn't even let fight mma because he did the wrong style?

You have already answered this question.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Was it skribs or pdg where you wouldn't even let fight mma because he did the wrong style?
> 
> You have already answered this question.




What? you're doolally mate, totally lost it. 

Oh Caulfield Cup, we just won it.


----------



## DaveB

Steve said:


> If you took 300 regular people, sent 100 to a school that trains "tma" and 100 to a school that trains MMA or even some other combat sport (wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ), and then 100 who don't  train at all as a control.  The two groups who train both train 3 nights each week for 90 minutes.  After a year, how do you think the three groups would fare in a fight?  To be clear, I'm not talking about professional athletes or elite athletes or even people who are athletically inclined.
> 
> *MMA is a training model. * The difference in the training model is exactly what DB is pointing to.  To say that MMA is an extension of TMA is a copout, like when Someone brags about how their cousin is successful, implying that they are also successful by proxy, or that they could also be successful if they wanted to be, while dismissing the hard work involved with success.  Take the doctor example.  A guy who works 80 hours at the hospital isn't going to become a great martial artist.  Probably developing some real skill as a doctor, though.  That person is making a choice.



I direct you to the highlighted text.

If MMA is a training model as opposed to a style, then it is different from tma. Tma are fighting methods, in some cases collection of fighting methods. The training model used is variable. It changes due to time and place and person. A fighting method differs from a training model in that it is what happens when you fight as opposed to when you train, as in the training model. 

There is no reason that MMA couldn't be the training model for a TMA. In fact most of the training in Drop Bears Tiger promo is things I've done in TMA schools.

There are distinct benefits to training towards competition with competition experienced coaches, such as better guidance in how to fight for the individual and better balancing of training programmes to improve fight fitness. MMA also has the advantage of mixing fighting styles to cover areas not covered in a traditional fighting methods.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> I suspect I'm being insulted here. When you say 'that business' I still have no idea what you mean. I also don't know what you think my martial arts training is. Still very confusing.



Suspect all you want.  What's in your state of mind, well that's what's in there.  Confusing's a constantly recurring theme you en-ounce.  Constant.  May I suggest you ease back, take some time to ponder.

There's lots of detailed posts of mine to look over, should you want to try & get an idea.


----------



## ShotoNoob

DaveB said:


> I direct you to the highlighted text.
> 
> A. If MMA is a training model as opposed to a style, then it is different from tma. Tma are fighting methods, in some cases collection of fighting methods. The training model used is variable. It changes due to time and place and person. A fighting method differs from a training model in that it is what happens when you fight as opposed to when you train, as in the training model.
> 
> B. There is no reason that MMA couldn't be the training model for a TMA. In fact most of the training in Drop Bears Tiger promo is things I've done in TMA schools.
> 
> C. There are distinct benefits to training towards competition with competition experienced coaches, such as better guidance in how to fight for the individual and better balancing of training programmes to improve fight fitness. MMA also has the advantage of mixing fighting styles to cover areas not covered in a traditional fighting methods.



You've brought in some interesting points there.

Paragraph A highlights some of the difference in philosophy between the practices of MMA and the individual, predecessor arts prior to the commercialization of MMA as a media business.

Paragraph B. is for sure applicable.  From what I glean, Tez's European martial art style which was founded on Wado Ryu follows this path.

Paragraph C then looks on the individually competitive aspect, and certainly captures how MMA competitors as a whole approach any particular match or venue.

On your last sentence of Paragraph C, here is where MMA shines because of the diversity in arts or styles that it centers on.  Traditional karate does cover grappling (certain styles extensively) in principle; often in practice the striking technicals make up the bulk of  what's trained.

That's a helluva perspective.  Bravo.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> What? you're doolally mate, totally lost it.
> 
> Oh Caulfield Cup, we just won it.



Congratulations on the caulfield cup. That is a really big deal.


----------



## drop bear

DaveB said:


> There is no reason that MMA couldn't be the training model for a TMA.




Which has been my point.

There is no reason Richard Simmons couldn't be training people like the navy seals either.

Except dudes aspiring to be mediocre.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Which has been my point.


  Couldn't be *a *model for training TMA.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> Couldn't be *a *model for training TMA.



Either way.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Either way.




Ha, ha, touche.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Does that happen?


Only in spurts, never consistently that I know of.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Sure.  Yet we Internet martial artists quote MMA wins & loses all the time.  In the proper context, they can support an argument.  It's very problematic to capture all the dynamics and convey all that over the INTERNET at the same too.
> 
> I can go along with all of your quote, but it's not comprehensive.  The divide (and I noticed you like / funny) is you have a full contact mentality while I don't.  I'm in the kata camp.  You're in the emphasis on sparring camp.  There's a difference in principle on how best to approach traditional martial arts.
> 
> I've had me, myself challenged over the years by the aggressive, muay thai, boxing, rough tough karate contingent.  There's no need to travel to Hawaii or continually prove what I have achieved against every doubter in the world.  It's up to the doubters to challenge themselves.  And I've won those challenges for the most part.  My emphasis, how a non-athlete like me (not the State karate champion physical specimen @ all) was on how I trained.  And that's largely by what was presented in traditional martial arts schools.
> 
> If you are curious on how it works in effect, it's the same as Mai.  I strike the opponent more dynamically than they can react.  I can also support striking with this strange karate thing called blocking.  One doesn't see frequent active blocking in formal karate kumite., yet the traditional karate curriculum's and manuals all provide for it.  Including Renee's Okinawan kata.  Maybe blocks work.
> 
> People have strong opinions and that's fine.  The far majority of those challenging mine (including instructors, tournament participants) have fallen against me in my venue.  Often too, those of higher skill than me, typically kung fu stylists, we don't bother to spar because we understand there is no point because of the mis-match in skills.
> 
> Kung fu stylists in my area conventionally and traditionally spend more time training the preparatory components of the curriculum, in basics, forms, one-step or self defense technicals, than sparring.  My traditional karate training model follows along that lines which is also the pre-Shotokan era model traditionally speaking.
> 
> If karate practitioners want to practice say, Kyo and use the hands up guard, that's all legit in my book.  It's just a departure from the traditional karate model in general, and not the kind of karate guard Kyo's either base art of Shotokan employs or Goju Ryu employed.  I hold both types work, I believe the traditional karate guard is more effective once skilled.  That's an example of tradition versus the more modern Kyo full contact paractice.


A question for you: if you don't spar regularly, how do you know you can do the things you're saying you can do? That's a serious question, because you're speaking of realistic accomplishments in terms of combat, but saying you're in the kata-not-sparring camp.

(A side note, I don't think these are opposites. They are options. Most folks I know who do kata ALSO spar, some of them reasonably hard contact.)


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Only in spurts, never consistently that I know of.



Which means there is no place where people are really innovating the art.

Are these arts then at least looking at the methods of guys that do train full time at elite gyms?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Of course you can compare these systems.
> 
> You compare it by seeing how the professionals do it better.
> 
> People who hack out on horses would ride better if they trained more like jockeys.
> 
> If people looked at professional mma fighters and compared how they trained they would become better at civilian self defense.
> 
> You can compare apples and better apples.


That makes sense in a post, but is it actually true? If someone trains - with the same intensity they bring to a hobbyist-oriented TMA school - at an MMA gym, will they end up getting better than using that intensity and time at a TMA school?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> People can do what they want. But the more effective their training is the better a martial artist they will become.
> 
> If results mattered in self defence then yes I would say train full time.
> 
> If the results are more down to the individual than the style. It is an indication the style isn't working.


I was actually thinking about this the other day, and I think I've figured out one of the places you and I have trouble communicating, DB. See, people who train for the purpose of self-defense rarely are actually trying to get as good at it as they possibly can. They are trying to get _better_ at it. That's a relative term, and how much better they want to get, as well as what priority they place on that goal, will affect how much they are willing to, and interested in, putting into their training.

Many folks who want to improve their ability to defend themselves are actually quite happy with getting to "better" in a few months. They're quite satisfied with slow improvement over a long period of time, because they don't really feel threatened. It's just something they want to be better at, should they ever need it, and their desire is pretty vague.

So, yeah, if someone wanted to become the best they can at self-defense, deep training with a lot of intensity, many hours a week, would be a good idea. For most of us, we had other priorities we balanced with that, so mostly didn't take that route.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Jockey.





ShotoNoob said:


> Acknowledged,_ INTERNET master..._





ShotoNoob said:


> Jockey.





ShotoNoob said:


> Yes, stupid.  How'd you come on on your Shotokan, Kyo kata comparison.  No answer, I see.



What ARE you on about??


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> If you took 300 regular people, sent 100 to a school that trains "tma" and 100 to a school that trains MMA or even some other combat sport (wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ), and then 100 who don't  train at all as a control.  The two groups who train both train 3 nights each week for 90 minutes.  After a year, how do you think the three groups would fare in a fight?  To be clear, I'm not talking about professional athletes or elite athletes or even people who are athletically inclined.
> 
> MMA is a training model.  The difference in the training model is exactly what DB is pointing to.  To say that MMA is an extension of TMA is a copout, like when Someone brags about how their cousin is successful, implying that they are also successful by proxy, or that they could also be successful if they wanted to be, while dismissing the hard work involved with success.  Take the doctor example.  A guy who works 80 hours at the hospital isn't going to become a great martial artist.  Probably developing some real skill as a doctor, though.  That person is making a choice.


I think it depends how they train. TMA isn't a consistent training model, so if you sent those folks to 100 random TMA programs, you're probably going to get a huge range of results. As we've discussed before, one of the advantages of some types of competition is they tend to weed out programs/instructors who can't deliver a win, or at least a competitive...competitor. A good TMA school, with a focus on what actually works in a fight (as we've talked about before - not actually the focus of all TMA schools), should be able to produce reasonable results in that same timeframe. I'd guess they'll be in the same ballpark, under that last assumption. Of course, that also has to assume all 300 stay in the program - competition does tend to also weed out people who don't develop as fast or are less gifted (not a universal, but a general truism). Of course, the question remains...are we talking about TMA with no competition? I'd guess that TMA with competition (something roughly similar to the format we're evaluating on) will have somewhat better results than if there's no competition. Internal (informal) competition inside the school will be better than no competition, but probably less effective than open competition.

All that presupposes the competition we're talking about (including the combat sport) are training something in alignment with the assessment we're doing at the end. BJJ fare badly if the end test is striking, but better if it's fewer rules. And a similar setup for boxing (though they seem to be less adaptable to open rules if they don't train to it). Likewise, a TMA school that doesn't train to a similar fight style to the ruleset will have more trouble.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Your are confused, the admission confirms.  Jockey, it's simple & straightforward.  How you like it.


If you think you're being clear, you're not. Simple and straightforward.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> Sorry to hear about that.  Best wishes for a speedy recovery.


Thanks mate much appreciated [emoji106]


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I was actually thinking about this the other day, and I think I've figured out one of the places you and I have trouble communicating, DB. See, people who train for the purpose of self-defense rarely are actually trying to get as good at it as they possibly can. They are trying to get _better_ at it. That's a relative term, and how much better they want to get, as well as what priority they place on that goal, will affect how much they are willing to, and interested in, putting into their training.



This is what I mean when I say in self defence results dont matter.


----------



## ShotoNoob

I see you rated my two karateka doing Taikyoku kata together as 'funny.'  And it certainly is in more ways than one.


gpseymour said:


> A question for you: if you don't spar regularly, how do you know you can do the things you're saying you can do?



It all comes down to an understanding of what traditional karate training does for you.  I've posted all over on this, numerous time and in any number of examples.  It's really problematic to take this farther over the internet.  You look and read at an illustration and see A (your approach) and I see B (my approach).  The illustration by a computer screen is inescapably handicapped that way.

So that makes for loggerheads. I went to your website and it all makes general martial sense.  Generally, cause it's a website / computer screen.



gpseymour said:


> That's a serious question, because you're speaking of realistic accomplishments in terms of combat, but saying you're in the kata-not-sparring camp.



Sure, and it's a very legitimate question.

CAMP ONE: THE APPLIED FIGHTING CAMP​I want to focus on boxing for a moment on the striking end.  I feel the sweet science is very well designed and comprehensive in it's approach.  in boxin, TMU, there is great emphasis of sparring, ring time with opponents boxing back at you, in order to develop your actual ability to box (fight), and to hone an refine your craft.

To further support the boxing / sparring heavy approach, we receive the benefit of pressure testing against an active, competitive opponent.  And with the reality testing which goes along with same, because our opponent may well be able to succeed against our mistakes or mistaken ideas.

I call this the applied fighting camp because you ultimately learn how best to fight through actively simulating actual fighting.

And finally, this makes perfect intuitive sense and works through what I call sport training the physical feedback loop of experience of fighting.

We can all agree great boxers, good boxers rise out of this applied fighting training method.



(A side note, I don't think these are opposites. They are options. Most folks I know who do kata ALSO spar, some of them reasonably hard contact.)[/QUOTE]

To digress for a moment, you've mixed 'opposites' with 'options.'  We should define the alternative first, then talk about mixing because even in boxing this is what is done.  In practice though, I do agree in principle with what you are proposing.

CAMP TWO: THE TRADITIONAL KARATE (MARTIAL ARTS) METHOD​
Here, as opposed to ascending off of the actively fighting competitor to train, the focus is on personal development.  The whole mind, body, spirit thing and all that that means which then becomes very subjective.  Why?  Because we have moved beyond the physical interaction of actual fighting to self training those qualities.  The definitions become murkier and more intangible.  We have thoughts, but they can only become tangible martially through largely physical action.  Certain exception.

To make my point, I'll put up a basic karate punch video.
*6. Oi Zuki JKA.mp4*
6,986 views







DojoMizuNagareDD
Published on Mar 17, 2012

SUBSCRIBE 4.4K
Karate, Shotokan, JKA, Japan, Headquater, Kihon, Kata, Kumite

TMU, this is probably the most excellent Shotokan format I've ever witnessed.  I say that not because it looks strong & sharp which it does.  I say that because I understand the traditional karate principles embodied in the physical format which the JKA Master is presenting.

The focus of this exercise is developing body, mind, spirit.  All three are represented if you know how these are expressed through karate format.

I discovered this soon after joining my first TMA school because my 1st TMA instructor lined us up in natural stance and had us practice what he called center punches slowly.  We we're "punching," that was only the form of the technique selected for the exercise.  There was no one in front of us.  We weren't in a fighting stance or posture.  We weren't trying to go fast like in a fight.  I realized we were training ourselves along the lines which I described.  We were trying to get it all to work together internally, with the body going along.

Now go back to the Shotokan Master and look again.

Here's how that self development, looks in action.  And BTW, traditional karate styles today conventionally train just as you suggest, but that can be a trap.
*Shiina Mai JPN vs Parker Kim AUS - Quarter Final*
439 views







Karate-do Focus

Kim Parker has a lot of guts 'cause the Japanese in Japan, karate is a religion in how intensely they practice.  I'd never go to train with the JKA.

Mai Shiina wins because of stronger body, mind, spirit which are all represented in principle with the JKA Master's lunge punch rendition.  The same process of both practitioners is the same principles.

So we will just end this with a question since this can't be determined over the internet.

How did Mai succeed over Kim when both train the same curriculum?  Was it kihon work that was better?  Was it kata practice?  Or like boxing structurally, was it through sparring and / or actual kumite?  The traditional Shotokan karate curriculum as established in Japan has all three components.  There is a blend.  What is the mix?

This is the training quest of the traditional karate student.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Which means there is no place where people are really innovating the art.


Mmm...not the same thing. I've made significant changes from how I was taught. Even some changes to what is taught. I don't have to train full-time to manage some innovation. So I'm not sure why you equated that kind of intense training to innovation. I think competition is a bigger driver of innovation than time spent training (look how many guards there are in BJJ now), and cross-training (mixing experience between arts) is probably the other big driver of innovation.

One important thing to note about why MY training hasn't gone entirely to the most efficient fight prep. There's material in NGA (and, IMO, in most TMA) that's there for "fiddling". It's not high-payoff training time - wouldn't pass the test with MMA, nor probably for BJJ - for people like me who like to fiddle with stuff. That fiddling is one of the reasons I never wandered to a less-traditional art. I like fiddling with things for the sheer intellectual pursuit of it, the fun of figuring out how to do something that looks and feels cool, even if it probably gains me a 1% improvement in my fighting skill, at best. It's kind of like those folks who want to try out tricking. It's not really the most efficient way to spend training time, but if it's fun...why not? I prefer to put some fighting basics in before getting to any of the fiddling, but I still like to eventually get to it.

Now, I'm probably speaking out of school on some of that, so don't hold my view against the rest of TMA (many of whom wouldn't consider my MA very "T"). That's just what I see in TMA that interests me.



> Are these arts then at least looking at the methods of guys that do train full time at elite gyms?


Arts don't look at anything. The practitioners do. And I don't know what most folks in NGA do - I have only sporadic contact with folks in the art outside my old school (where I go back and train several times a year). I have more contact with folks in other arts than within my own art. So I can only speak about myself, so I can confidently say that at least one person in NGA has been looking at those training methods.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> That makes sense in a post, but is it actually true? If someone trains - with the same intensity they bring to a hobbyist-oriented TMA school - at an MMA gym, will they end up getting better than using that intensity and time at a TMA school?



Yeah. Because you will be crap in a good school.

If you go to a competitive school everyone who trains harder will get better than you.

If you go to an easier school. You will be comparatively better. And your training methodology will be validated.

Otherwise say one day a week gets his but kicked. And says right. It is time to become a beast. It is really hard if everyone around you is happy being a dud.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> This is what I mean when I say in self defence results dont matter.


Okay, I don't agree with the choice of words (the results do matter to the student - - just not as much as you might expect), but if that's what you meant by it, then yeah. But that's not really about training for SD. It's about how much (and what) people want out of their training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> I see you rated my two karateka doing Taikyoku kata together as 'funny.'  And it certainly is in more ways than one.
> 
> 
> It all comes down to an understanding of what traditional karate training does for you.  I've posted all over on this, numerous time and in any number of examples.  It's really problematic to take this farther over the internet.  You look and read at an illustration and see A (your approach) and I see B (my approach).  The illustration by a computer screen is inescapably handicapped that way.
> 
> So that makes for loggerheads. I went to your website and it all makes general martial sense.  Generally, cause it's a website / computer screen.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, and it's a very legitimate question.
> 
> CAMP ONE: THE APPLIED FIGHTING CAMP​I want to focus on boxing for a moment on the striking end.  I feel the sweet science is very well designed and comprehensive in it's approach.  in boxin, TMU, there is great emphasis of sparring, ring time with opponents boxing back at you, in order to develop your actual ability to box (fight), and to hone an refine your craft.
> 
> To further support the boxing / sparring heavy approach, we receive the benefit of pressure testing against an active, competitive opponent.  And with the reality testing which goes along with same, because our opponent may well be able to succeed against our mistakes or mistaken ideas.
> 
> I call this the applied fighting camp because you ultimately learn how best to fight through actively simulating actual fighting.
> 
> And finally, this makes perfect intuitive sense and works through what I call sport training the physical feedback loop of experience of fighting.
> 
> We can all agree great boxers, good boxers rise out of this applied fighting training method.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To digress for a moment, you've mixed 'opposites' with 'options.'  We should define the alternative first, then talk about mixing because even in boxing this is what is done.  In practice though, I do agree in principle with what you are proposing.
> 
> CAMP TWO: THE TRADITIONAL KARATE (MARTIAL ARTS) METHOD​
> Here, as opposed to ascending off of the actively fighting competitor to train, the focus is on personal development.  The whole mind, body, spirit thing and all that that means which then becomes very subjective.  Why?  Because we have moved beyond the physical interaction of actual fighting to self training those qualities.  The definitions become murkier and more intangible.  We have thoughts, but they can only become tangible martially through largely physical action.  Certain exception.
> 
> To make my point, I'll put up a basic karate punch video.
> *6. Oi Zuki JKA.mp4*
> 6,986 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DojoMizuNagareDD
> Published on Mar 17, 2012
> 
> SUBSCRIBE 4.4K
> Karate, Shotokan, JKA, Japan, Headquater, Kihon, Kata, Kumite
> 
> TMU, this is probably the most excellent Shotokan format I've ever witnessed.  I say that not because it looks strong & sharp which it does.  I say that because I understand the traditional karate principles embodied in the physical format which the JKA Master is presenting.
> 
> The focus of this exercise is developing body, mind, spirit.  All three are represented if you know how these are expressed through karate format.
> 
> I discovered this soon after joining my first TMA school because my 1st TMA instructor lined us up in natural stance and had us practice what he called center punches slowly.  We we're "punching," that was only the form of the technique selected for the exercise.  There was no one in front of us.  We weren't in a fighting stance or posture.  We weren't trying to go fast like in a fight.  I realized we were training ourselves along the lines which I described.  We were trying to get it all to work together internally, with the body going along.
> 
> Now go back to the Shotokan Master and look again.
> 
> Here's how that self development, looks in action.  And BTW, traditional karate styles today conventionally train just as you suggest, but that can be a trap.
> *Shiina Mai JPN vs Parker Kim AUS - Quarter Final*
> 439 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karate-do Focus
> 
> Kim Parker has a lot of guts 'cause the Japanese in Japan, karate is a religion in how intensely they practice.  I'd never go to train with the JKA.
> 
> Mai Shiina wins because of stronger body, mind, spirit which are all represented in principle with the JKA Master's lunge punch rendition.  The same process of both practitioners is the same principles.
> 
> So we will just end this with a question since this can't be determined over the internet.
> 
> How did Mai succeed over Kim when both train the same curriculum?  Was it kihon work that was better?  Was it kata practice?  Or like boxing structurally, was it through sparring and / or actual kumite?  The traditional Shotokan karate curriculum as established in Japan has all three components.  There is a blend.  What is the mix?
> 
> This is the training quest of the traditional karate student.


You have a problem in your logic. You keep talking about traditional development vs. sparring. Then you use sparring (in competition) to prove your point.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Mmm...not the same thing. I've made significant changes from how I was taught. Even some changes to what is taught. I don't have to train full-time to manage some innovation. So I'm not sure why you equated that kind of intense training to innovation. I think competition is a bigger driver of innovation than time spent training (look how many guards there are in BJJ now), and cross-training (mixing experience between arts) is probably the other big driver of innovation.



Tiger is the martial arts version of NASA.

You get all these top guys together competing and pushing each other. In any endeavor. And you will gen innovation.

This is why I keep saying martial arts is driven by the practitioners. Not by the founders. Not even by the instructors.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> What ARE you on about??


 No. What are you on about?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I don't agree with the choice of words (the results do matter to the student - - just not as much as you might expect), but if that's what you meant by it, then yeah. But that's not really about training for SD. It's about how much (and what) people want out of their training.



See I think results matter to the student more than a lot of instructors give them credit for.

Results don't matter to the instructor.

If one day a week knew in ten years he would get manhandled by a guy who put in 6 months of real work.

He would come in more often.

Self defense manufacturers results to satisfy this need.

 One day of women's self defence and they are throwing around 90kg guys like rag dolls.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> I think it depends how they train. TMA isn't a consistent training model, so if you sent those folks to 100 random TMA programs, you're probably going to get a huge range of results. As we've discussed before, one of the advantages of some types of competition is they tend to weed out programs/instructors who can't deliver a win, or at least a competitive...competitor.



MMA same problem.



gpseymour said:


> A good TMA school, with a focus on what actually works in a fight (as we've talked about before - not actually the focus of all TMA schools), should be able to produce reasonable results in that same timeframe. I'd guess they'll be in the same ballpark, under that last assumption. Of course, that also has to assume all 300 stay in the program - competition does tend to also weed out people who don't develop as fast or are less gifted (not a universal, but a general truism).



TMA takes longer to become accomplished at.  It's training is more sophisticated in nature.  Which is a huge reason you don't see it in MMA effectively.



gpseymour said:


> Of course, the question remains...are we talking about TMA with no competition? I'd guess that TMA with competition (something roughly similar to the format we're evaluating on) will have somewhat better results than if there's no competition. Internal (informal) competition inside the school will be better than no competition, but probably less effective than open competition.



This is true as a generality but has to be said within the competence of the individual training.



gpseymour said:


> All that presupposes the competition we're talking about (including the combat sport) are training something in alignment with the assessment we're doing at the end. BJJ fare badly if the end test is striking, but better if it's fewer rules. And a similar setup for boxing (though they seem to be less adaptable to open rules if they don't train to it). Likewise, a TMA school that doesn't train to a similar fight style to the ruleset will have more trouble.



If you are training TMA competently, a striking emphasis will take care of the grappling based on principle.  Technical proficiency across all techniques is always ideal.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> You have a problem in your logic. You keep talking about traditional development vs. sparring. Then you use sparring (in competition) to prove your point.


 Why is that illogical GPS?  The bias is in your thinking because you identify with Camp 1 that _actual fighting_ is the key end point to fighting competency.

My position is actual fighting isn't the key, it's the preparation _to fight_ by the other parts of the traditional karate curriculum aside from actual fighting.

READ CAREFULLY AND CONSIDER.

It's the better prepared fighter who wins.  Not the better _in free sparring training.

Because you want to win in actual fighting (*we all do), you presume actual fighting is the key to developing that skill.  It's laced throughout your narratives.  And as I've stipulated previously, it's a valid way to train and your way works.

My position is that my way works better (has the potential).  Actual fighting is always the ultimated test,,, it's not in my book of traditional karate, as the best way to prepare.

That is all._


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> If you think you're being clear, you're not. Simple and straightforward.


You've made some direct responses to my substantive posts.  So my answers are better.

EDIT: And I'm waiting on a review of my discussion in response to your sparring v.s kata theory question.  I specifically addressed your query, in organized detail w illustrations.

The dichotomy of how to produce the better fighter.  Waiting.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Tiger is the martial arts version of NASA.
> 
> You get all these top guys together competing and pushing each other. In any endeavor. And you will gen innovation.
> 
> This is why I keep saying martial arts is driven by the practitioners. Not by the founders. Not even by the instructors.


Instructors are (or, rather can be) among the practitioners. So, yes, I agree. What I'm hoping to build within my own small program is a group of students who question and change stuff. I teach my way, and hope they'll pass along whatever of that they find useful. More importantly (for future students), I hope they'll figure out some stuff I didn't figure out, or at least some stuff I didn't get right.

But yes, the more high-level guys you get together, the more innovation you're likely to get. And competition will drive more innovation among those guys. I'm not sure all innovation is good from a total efficiency standpoint (some of the heavy focus in sport BJJ on guard passing, for instance, is good for competition, but not as valuable outside that), but a lot of innovation (even if it includes some that's less valuable) is better than no innovation.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Instructors are (or, rather can be) among the practitioners. So, yes, I agree. What I'm hoping to build within my own small program is a group of students who question and change stuff. I teach my way, and hope they'll pass along whatever of that they find useful. More importantly (for future students), I hope they'll figure out some stuff I didn't figure out, or at least some stuff I didn't get right.



Right.  You are the locus of innovation.  It's not the art, it's your incarnation.



gpseymour said:


> But yes, the more high-level guys you get together, the more innovation you're likely to get. And competition will drive more innovation among those guys. I'm not sure all innovation is good from a total efficiency standpoint (some of the heavy focus in sport BJJ on guard passing, for instance, is good for competition, but not as valuable outside that), but a lot of innovation (even if it includes some that's less valuable) is better than no innovation.



In traditional karate, the curriculum is the high level "guy."  Not you.  Not me.  Not some guy / gal 'cause their belt is worn.

Competition and your (you & your "top guys") will create top martial arts.

You are Camp 1 in my post.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> See I think results matter to the student more than a lot of instructors give them credit for.


I don't know where you'd draw that conclusion. From the effort and commitment I see from the average student, I don't think the immediacy and magnitude of the result is all that important to them.



> Results don't matter to the instructor.


They always matter to me. And to every instructor I've had discussions with. We tend to get pretty bummed when students aren't making progress and getting better. So yeah, it does matter to the instructor.



> If one day a week knew in ten years he would get manhandled by a guy who put in 6 months of real work. He would come in more often.


Maybe. I've had realistic discussions with students about what they can expect from their training. I've never seen it have much effect on their attendance or their intensity, unless they decided it just wasn't worth the training anymore. 



> Self defense manufacturers results to satisfy this need.
> One day of women's self defence and they are throwing around 90kg guys like rag dolls.


I've never seen that. I've never seen a one-day class that included throws (students aren't ready to fall). I'm not saying nobody does that - I'm saying that's not the norm. Usually, at the end of a one-day class (women, men, kids, whatever), there's a discussion of the few things they've covered, an acknowledgement (re-acknowledgement, because it's usually already been said at the beginning) that what they've just done is gotten a taste and a couple of useful bits they could practice and make useful...but that none of that is going to serve them when they walk out the door, because developing skills takes actual work and time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Why is that illogical GPS?  The bias is in your thinking because you identify with Camp 1 that _actual fighting_ is the key end point to fighting competency.
> 
> My position is actual fighting isn't the key, it's the preparation _to fight_ by the other parts of the traditional karate curriculum aside from actual fighting.
> 
> READ CAREFULLY AND CONSIDER.
> 
> It's the better prepared fighter who wins.  Not the better _in free sparring training.
> 
> Because you want to win in actual fighting (*we all do), you presume actual fighting is the key to developing that skill.  It's laced throughout your narratives.  And as I've stipulated previously, it's a valid way to train and your way works.
> 
> My position is that my way works better (has the potential).  Actual fighting is always the ultimated test,,, it's not in my book of traditional karate, as the best way to prepare.
> 
> That is all._


You presume to know what I presume. You presume incorrectly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> You've made some direct responses to my substantive posts.  So my answers are better.
> 
> EDIT: And I'm waiting on a review of my discussion in response to your sparring v.s kata theory question.  I specifically addressed your query, in organized detail w illustrations.
> 
> The dichotomy of how to produce the better fighter.  Waiting.


I honestly can't follow your logic in some of your posts, so won't be responding to that one.

Here's what I'll say: if you don't spar on a regular basis, you can't really know if what you're training will work in sparring. Sparring is as close as we can get to actual fighting, so is - in my opinion - a necessary tool in refining training for fighting ability. Sparring can also be a part of training to fight (by limiting your tools to develop where you are weak, for example), but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what you keep showing in those competition videos. The feedback from that sparring is input for training. That makes the sparring a tool for training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> In traditional karate, the curriculum is the high level "guy."  Not you.  Not me.  Not some guy / gal 'cause their belt is worn.


I don't understand this paragraph.


----------



## _Simon_

Tez3 said:


> Oh Caulfield Cup, we just won it.



Ah congrats guys!!


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> You presume to know what I presume. You presume incorrectly.



Yeah. Still not substance.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> I honestly can't follow your logic in some of your posts, so won't be responding to that one.



Fair enough.



gpseymour said:


> Here's what I'll say: if you don't spar on a regular basis, you can't really know if what you're training will work in sparring.



I understand your thinking & position.



gpseymour said:


> Sparring is as close as we can get to actual fighting, so is - in my opinion - a necessary tool in refining training for fighting ability.



Yes.  I understand and agree with your 1st sentence 100%, up to the ",".  I will agree and support after the comma should one is speaking of the Camp 1, Applied Fighting Theory, which I illustrated with boxing, in my detail post.

Please recognize that I stipulate that is a valid way to train and is / can be effective in producing high level skills.  Again professional boxers, good amateur boxers prime example arts.

The traditional karate model today also incorporates this thinking or approach, as kumite and competition make up 1 of the 3 cornerstones of the traditional karate training regimen.

So all good on that score.



gpseymour said:


> ISparring can also be a part of training to fight (by limiting your tools to develop where you are weak, for example), but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what you keep showing in those competition videos. The feedback from that sparring is input for training. That makes the sparring a tool for training.



Agreed on sentence one, as I have noted by including boxing as an example and the traditional karate model curriculum of present times, also.  Same with sentence two, although the emphasis in your personal approach and let's say MMA here in the USA there is more of a weight on actual competition in the learning process.

Sparring, all as you've described, is training tool both for what I call Camp 1, Applied Fighting, and Camp 2, the Traditional Karate Model.

GPS, I believe the majority of posters have said there is overlap (at least) in training methodology between TMA and MMA for contrast purposes.

So again all good.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> I don't understand this paragraph.



Yeah, that's one of those that's saying a lot in a vague way.  I'll get back on that.  See my post below where I try to laser in on your thinking to contrast again mine.

Don't forget, everything you are doing teaching / practice wise is OK in my book.. It's just not mine, what I believe to be the accurate depiction of traditional karate / traditional martial arts.

BTW, it's more often the kung fu practitioners, & ikung fu nstructors in my area who think along my lines.  The top-ranked master @ my dojo also concurs with my position, or should I am in line with his!


----------



## ShotoNoob

---FIGHTING TEST---

*Shiina Mai JPN vs Parker Kim AUS - Quarter Final*
439 views







Karate-do Focus
Published on Aug 29, 2017


gpseymour said:


> Sparring is as close as we can get to actual fighting, so is - in my opinion - a necessary tool in refining training for fighting ability.



gpseymour = kumite = training (to see if you are working, to see what to change).

shotonoob = kumite = testing (what you know to be working in principle from your training before you ever step on to the tatame).
                                    And, with allowance & accordance with your position, which is true.



gpseymour said:


> Sparring can also be a part of training to fight (by limiting your tools to develop where you are weak, for example), but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what you keep showing in those competition videos. The feedback from that sparring is input for training. That makes the sparring a tool for training.



As above, now see below.

---TRAINING TO FIGHT---

*Mai Shiina (Honbu Dojo JKA)*
10,285 views







Dojo O-Ichiban
Published on Jul 28, 2014

_I can defeat Camp 1 (in principle), which elevates fighting skill through sparring, because I have mastery over, have elevated myself.  Kim Parker who looks to be similar rank, can approach Mai Shiina - hold her own at points, but in the end is outfought seriously at each critical juncture.  Starting to see?_

By my approach, this result or desired outcome stems from mastering (for working purposes) the traditional karate curriculum before I even begin to engage seriously in free sparring or competition.  The free sparring is more of a verification that I have mastered karate for fighting purposes BEFOREHAND.  Based on knowledge and skilled execution of all the underlying principles.

But of course this is me.  And certain other traditional martial artists I've spoken about in my area.  Nearly all the karate practitioner in my dojo believe as you do.  I've given them some demonstrations though, that have shaken them up.  In kumite, striking the opposition before they can react.  Actually blocking strikes actively instead of trying to out-speed hit the other as we typically in formal karate kumite.  Smashing multiple board without set up, warm up, absent all that wiggling into exact position you always see.  Breaking multi-positional boards with kata moves.

Free sparring always, always makes a good resistance test, a good reality test.  To me though, it's a test I know I should pass before I even contemplate doing so.

Again, this is difficult & problematic over the internet.  And as a word of caution, training traditional karate wrongly, or kata wrongly is a waste of time for the most part.  Just as TMA critics assert. We see massive fails in MMA because of this.  *I posted that Peek-a-Boo Boxer vs. the State Karate Champion Match video, perfect, perfect illustration.*

Your approach of looking to active sparring for the benefits makes for a more pragmatic route.

I think this is one big reason why kumite was incorporated into the Shotokan model on mainland Japan early on.  To make Shotokan and karate more relate-able and practical for more / most people.  less theoretical.

Sound like we are getting somewhere?

P.S. I think her kata is pretty damn good.  Time for a female to get a promotion, JKA.


----------



## Martial D

ShotoNoob said:


> ---FIGHTING TEST---
> 
> *Shiina Mai JPN vs Parker Kim AUS - Quarter Final*
> 439 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karate-do Focus
> Published on Aug 29, 2017
> 
> 
> gpseymour = kumite = training (to see if you are working, to see what to change).
> 
> shotonoob = kumite = testing (what you know to be working in principle from your training before you ever step on to the tatame).
> And, with allowance & accordance with your position, which is true.
> 
> 
> 
> ---TRAINING TO FIGHT---
> 
> *Mai Shiina (Honbu Dojo JKA)*
> 10,285 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dojo O-Ichiban
> Published on Jul 28, 2014
> 
> _I can defeat Camp 1, which elevates fighting skill through sparring, because I have mastery over myself.  Starting to understand?_
> 
> By my approach, this result or desired outcome stems from mastering (for working purposes) the traditional karate curriculum before I even begin to engage seriously in free sparring or competition.  The free sparring is more of a verification that I have mastered karate for fighting purposes BEFOREHAND.  Based on knowledge and skilled execution of all the underlying principles.
> 
> But of course this is me.  And certain other traditional martial artists I've spoken about in my area.  Nearly all the karate practitioner in my dojo believe as you do.  I've given them some demonstrations though, that have shaken them up.  In kumite, striking the opposition before they can react.  Actually blocking strikes actively instead of trying to out-speed hit the other as we typically in formal karate kumite.  Smashing multiple board without set up, warm up, absent all that wiggling into exact position you always see.  Breaking multi-positional boards with kata moves.
> 
> Free sparring always, always makes a good resistance test, a good reality test.  To me though, it's a test I know I should pass before I even contemplate doing so.
> 
> Again, this is difficult & problematic over the internet.  And as a word of caution, training traditional karate wrongly, or kata wrongly is a waste of time for the most part.  We see massive fails in MMA because of this.  *I posted that Peek-a-Boo Boxer vs. the State Karate Champion Match, perfect, perfect illustration.*  Your approach of looking to active sparring for the benefits is a much more pragmatic way.
> 
> I think this is one big reason why kumite was incorporated into the Shotokan model on mainland Japan early on.  To make Shotokan and karate more relate-able and practical for more / most people.  less theoretical.
> 
> Sound like we are getting somewhere?


I know what you mean. I sat in a Nascar once. I know where the pedals are and which way to turn the wheel. That's really all I need to win any Nascar race.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Martial D said:


> I know what you mean. I sat in a Nascar once. I know where the pedals are and which way to turn the wheel. That's really all I need to win any Nascar race.


GPS, you, me, we're all headed in the same direction.  Some divergence on how to best arrive.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> I don't understand this paragraph.



I've gone on & on.  Just let me throw this up.
*Kihon Ippon Kumite JKA 2 Shotokan Karate @KarateZine*
44,259 views







Karate Zine
Published on Dec 1, 2013

MMA, boxers, Muay Thai enthusiastic pan this type of karate training constantly.  From their perspective, based on the dynamics of how those listed arts are constructed and trained, they are 100% justified in their thinking.  This is dumb.

See, however, it's not an opponent you are facing.  It's yourself.  It's taking the understanding of the traditional karate curriculum and putting it all it's multi-level principles into play, in a theoretically applied kumite exercise.  It's a mental strengthening exercise in physical form which you can use in principle.  Not a Brandon Gibson of Jackson / Winkeljohn boxing combo.  Almost nothing in common.

Karateka at my dojo (and a lot where other dojos) walk through these monkey-see-do and then get creamed in sparring.  Start some kick boxing knock off just like out State Karate Champion destroyed by savvy Peek-a- Boo'r.

Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a sport.  It's the mind that's working the body; it only looks like we are 'punching air.'

If you don't train these properly, they are in truth, dumb & dumber.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I don't know where you'd draw that conclusion. From the effort and commitment I see from the average student, I don't think the immediacy and magnitude of the result is all that important to them.
> 
> 
> They always matter to me. And to every instructor I've had discussions with. We tend to get pretty bummed when students aren't making progress and getting better. So yeah, it does matter to the instructor.
> 
> 
> Maybe. I've had realistic discussions with students about what they can expect from their training. I've never seen it have much effect on their attendance or their intensity, unless they decided it just wasn't worth the training anymore.
> 
> 
> I've never seen that. I've never seen a one-day class that included throws (students aren't ready to fall). I'm not saying nobody does that - I'm saying that's not the norm. Usually, at the end of a one-day class (women, men, kids, whatever), there's a discussion of the few things they've covered, an acknowledgement (re-acknowledgement, because it's usually already been said at the beginning) that what they've just done is gotten a taste and a couple of useful bits they could practice and make useful...but that none of that is going to serve them when they walk out the door, because developing skills takes actual work and time.



I have seen a massive trend shift from what is easy to what works. Self defense to bjj. Bjj to mma. Aerobics to cross fit.

Soccer moms doing mud runs and marathons

People are now more driven to success than comfort.


And almost all of suit training.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Suspect all you want.  What's in your state of mind, well that's what's in there.  Confusing's a constantly recurring theme you en-ounce.  Constant.  May I suggest you ease back, take some time to ponder.
> 
> There's lots of detailed posts of mine to look over, should you want to try & get an idea.




My dear, I'm sure you think what you are writing is deep and profound, I have news for you it's not. Instead of projecting your muddled and ill thought out ideas onto me please try to do some clear and logically thinking. 'En-ounce' is really silly, apart from the fact there's no hyphen in the word I am not 'speaking or pronouncing anything' this is the written word.
We've all read your posts, you aren't the messiah of martial arts, your words aren't manna from the heavens. 
This is the important bit, most of your posts are copy and paste from other sources not much of it is your writing, the bits where you talk randomly are for sure, where you think you are being enigmatic and wise. Take post 198, you wrote only a few words on that, the rest is taken from someone else's writing, the style or writing, words used etc are different. By all means quote people but have the decency to cite who you are quoting.


----------



## Tez3

_Simon_ said:


> Ah congrats guys!!





drop bear said:


> Congratulations on the caulfield cup. That is a really big deal.




Cheers.  everyone is very pleased. Sadly one horse isn't coming back to UK, a few days ago it broke it's leg, nasty totally in pieces, put down very quickly. 

Probably not a good chance in the Gold cup so don't put money on but you never know!

I wouldn't put any money on shootnoob posts being all his own work either, he's interspersing writing from articles with his own, the difference between writing styles is obvious probably also obvious to all but thought I'd mention it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Yeah. Still not substance.


I've no need to provide a substantive answer when the premise you start from is incorrect.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> ---FIGHTING TEST---
> 
> *Shiina Mai JPN vs Parker Kim AUS - Quarter Final*
> 439 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karate-do Focus
> Published on Aug 29, 2017
> 
> 
> gpseymour = kumite = training (to see if you are working, to see what to change).
> 
> shotonoob = kumite = testing (what you know to be working in principle from your training before you ever step on to the tatame).
> And, with allowance & accordance with your position, which is true.


I literally do not see a difference in those two positions. As a training tool, sparring's main value is in finding out how what you're doing works. So in training, it's used for testing. The only thing I'd change is in your second sentence: from "what you know to be working" to "what you think is working". That's why you test it - to know.





> As above, now see below.
> 
> ---TRAINING TO FIGHT---
> 
> *Mai Shiina (Honbu Dojo JKA)*
> 10,285 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dojo O-Ichiban
> Published on Jul 28, 2014
> 
> _I can defeat Camp 1 (in principle), which elevates fighting skill through sparring, because I have mastery over, have elevated myself.  Kim Parker who looks to be similar rank, can approach Mai Shiina - hold her own at points, but in the end is outfought seriously at each critical juncture.  Starting to see?_
> 
> By my approach, this result or desired outcome stems from mastering (for working purposes) the traditional karate curriculum before I even begin to engage seriously in free sparring or competition.  The free sparring is more of a verification that I have mastered karate for fighting purposes BEFOREHAND.  Based on knowledge and skilled execution of all the underlying principles.
> 
> But of course this is me.  And certain other traditional martial artists I've spoken about in my area.  Nearly all the karate practitioner in my dojo believe as you do.  I've given them some demonstrations though, that have shaken them up.  In kumite, striking the opposition before they can react.  Actually blocking strikes actively instead of trying to out-speed hit the other as we typically in formal karate kumite.  Smashing multiple board without set up, warm up, absent all that wiggling into exact position you always see.  Breaking multi-positional boards with kata moves.
> 
> Free sparring always, always makes a good resistance test, a good reality test.  To me though, it's a test I know I should pass before I even contemplate doing so.
> 
> Again, this is difficult & problematic over the internet.  And as a word of caution, training traditional karate wrongly, or kata wrongly is a waste of time for the most part.  Just as TMA critics assert. We see massive fails in MMA because of this.  *I posted that Peek-a-Boo Boxer vs. the State Karate Champion Match video, perfect, perfect illustration.*
> 
> Your approach of looking to active sparring for the benefits makes for a more pragmatic route.
> 
> I think this is one big reason why kumite was incorporated into the Shotokan model on mainland Japan early on.  To make Shotokan and karate more relate-able and practical for more / most people.  less theoretical.
> 
> Sound like we are getting somewhere?
> 
> P.S. I think her kata is pretty damn good.  Time for a female to get a promotion, JKA.


This is where you lose me - and I think some others. You keep referring to winning by self-mastery. That's not something that doesn't happen in most combat sports. Yeah, someone who's exceptionally gifted might get by with less self-mastery, but the more self-discipline, self-understanding, and self-mastery they develop, the better a fighter will get. An undisciplined fighter will never develop their peak. And most fighters are strategic and methodical in their fight. The best are often more so than the others, regardless of their background.

I don't think TMA (and that's a pretty vague term that has different meaning for many people, so let's accept that up) has a monopoly on self-mastery. There are things I prefer about the TMA approach, so I keep much of it, but we should be realistic about what the real differences are. I think both sides - TMA and MMA - tend to spend a lot of effort on differentiation, when they're parts of a spectrum, not really polar opposites.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I have seen a massive trend shift from what is easy to what works. Self defense to bjj. Bjj to mma. Aerobics to cross fit.
> 
> Soccer moms doing mud runs and marathons
> 
> People are now more driven to success than comfort.
> 
> 
> And almost all of suit training.


I haven't seen that massive shift the same way you have. There's a shift, but it feels a lot like the other shifts I've seen in MA - about what they're seeing in the media. So that changes expectations of what things should look like. That's the shift from SD-orientation to fight orientation. 

There's another shift - that's slow to catch on in TMA as I've seen it, and this one goes back to what I was saying. See, I've always found TMA (as I've experienced it) to be concerned about results. They just weren't really good at identifying which results, nor how to best test them. MMA's training methods have given us (because I toss myself into that camp) better insight into both of those. We're learning better how to use failure in our training. And that kind of change does have to come from the instructors, because they have to set up drills and expectation around that. It still surprises me when I have to explain to a class (when visiting someone and asked to help teach) why a drill "went badly". Some drills are supposed to - they're about learning to manage the failure to minimize the fallout. That's something I don't think TMA did enough of in the past.

And that's the same with things like aerobics to cross fit. That's about optics and expectations. People always cared about results - and a lot of people got good results from aerobics. But we now know more than we did in the 70's, and can produce better training. So HIIT and other exercise approaches give people better results - and people are expecting something different (more thought of strength than just sweating off calories). But sometimes it's not what they think, and they're still not getting the right results. Crossfit is a good example of this. It's gone overboard, and people are getting injured faster than with more reasonable approaches. So they are injured and not able to be as active, which sets them back in their path. Soon, we'll probably find Crossfit starting to either get reasonable, or get a bad reputation. Then we'll either get Crossfit that doesn't injure people (better results) or something else that tries to fill that role.

So I don't think it's really a shift away from not caring about results to caring about results. I think we're all (including TMA and SD) are getting smarter, and our expectations of those results are changing.


----------



## Buka

ShotoNoob said:


> Yeah, that's one of those that's saying a lot in a vague way.  I'll get back on that.  See my post below where I try to laser in on your thinking to contrast again mine.
> 
> Don't forget, everything you are doing teaching / practice wise is OK in my book.. It's just not mine, what I believe to be the accurate depiction of traditional karate / traditional martial arts.
> 
> BTW, it's more often the kung fu practitioners, & ikung fu nstructors in my area who think along my lines.  The top-ranked master @ my dojo also concurs with my position, or should I am in line with his!



Bro, have you earned your first belt in your dojo yet? I'm just curious.


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> and you didn't do reading comprehension as school did you? You didn't understand what I wrote so you write an inane, boring and vacuous remark to make up for your lack of acumen.
> 
> I would challenge you to a battle of wits but you, sir, are unarmed.



moooooooooooooo.


----------



## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> Bro, have you earned your first belt in your dojo yet? I'm just curious.


Stated more gently than I could have done.  Which is why I’m not participating.  I’ve been thinking more about a physics text on Amazon...


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I haven't seen that massive shift the same way you have. There's a shift, but it feels a lot like the other shifts I've seen in MA - about what they're seeing in the media. So that changes expectations of what things should look like. That's the shift from SD-orientation to fight orientation.
> 
> There's another shift - that's slow to catch on in TMA as I've seen it, and this one goes back to what I was saying. See, I've always found TMA (as I've experienced it) to be concerned about results. They just weren't really good at identifying which results, nor how to best test them. MMA's training methods have given us (because I toss myself into that camp) better insight into both of those. We're learning better how to use failure in our training. And that kind of change does have to come from the instructors, because they have to set up drills and expectation around that. It still surprises me when I have to explain to a class (when visiting someone and asked to help teach) why a drill "went badly". Some drills are supposed to - they're about learning to manage the failure to minimize the fallout. That's something I don't think TMA did enough of in the past.
> 
> And that's the same with things like aerobics to cross fit. That's about optics and expectations. People always cared about results - and a lot of people got good results from aerobics. But we now know more than we did in the 70's, and can produce better training. So HIIT and other exercise approaches give people better results - and people are expecting something different (more thought of strength than just sweating off calories). But sometimes it's not what they think, and they're still not getting the right results. Crossfit is a good example of this. It's gone overboard, and people are getting injured faster than with more reasonable approaches. So they are injured and not able to be as active, which sets them back in their path. Soon, we'll probably find Crossfit starting to either get reasonable, or get a bad reputation. Then we'll either get Crossfit that doesn't injure people (better results) or something else that tries to fill that role.
> 
> So I don't think it's really a shift away from not caring about results to caring about results. I think we're all (including TMA and SD) are getting smarter, and our expectations of those results are changing.



Ok as one concept let's look at mud runs. Back in the day I did an army obstacle course. Which honestly mud runs look harder.

Now interestingly women were not expected to complete them. Women can't be soldiers. They can't lift their own body weight, can't do push ups. So on and so forth.

And now soccer moms are doing what nobody thought soldiers could do. 

That is your one day a week person who when given the opportunity to be better  Becomes better


----------



## Buka

Flying Crane said:


> Stated more gently than I could have done.  Which is why I’m not participating.  I’ve been thinking more about a physics text on Amazon...



Physics text on Amazon.... do tell.


----------



## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> Physics text on Amazon.... do tell.


Well I’ve had an intro class in physics but that’s it, and I’m not in a position to take more classes right now so I’ve been buying old, used editions of college texts on Amazon, often for under 10 bucks.  Not fully up to date, but a lot of great info in them, and a fraction of the cost of a new college text, often over $200. Lots of biology, some geology, astronomy.

So there is a text by Paul Hewitt, called Conceptual Physics, he was a teacher here in San Francisco, City College of SF, and UC Berkeley and UC Santa Cruz, and the Exploratorium as well as U of Hawaii Manoa and Hilo.  He pioneered a conceptual approach to teaching physics, less of the math.  I think it sounds like a great way to get a grip on some concepts and would be a great preparation for some further physics courses.  I might pick up an edition of his text.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> This is where you lose me - and I think some others.



Yep by my approach, you are lost.



gpseymour said:


> You keep referring to winning by self-mastery. That's not something that doesn't happen in most combat sports.



Sentence 1.  Yep, Traditional karate the art speaks of that self-mastery.

Sentence 2. Well, there's a difference in method between TMA and combat sports.  So then there is a difference in self-mastery if you concur on the premise.



gpseymour said:


> Yeah, someone who's exceptionally gifted might get by with less self-mastery, but the more self-discipline, self-understanding, and self-mastery they develop, the better a fighter will get. An undisciplined fighter will never develop their peak. And most fighters are strategic and methodical in their fight. The best are often more so than the others, regardless of their background.



Most MMA fighter we in the major venues are relatively unskilled animals.  They are conditioned heavily, that I'll grant. They are aggressive at putting out some kind of technique bet it Muay Thai or BJJ, etc.   Only a minor percentage have any level of skill.  And self-mastery is a rare commodity in MMA indeed.

Here's prime beef example.
*Was Khabib Rocked Against Michael Johnson? Joe Rogan Exposed*
134,332 views







FR MMA 2
Published on Apr 12, 2018

Michael Johnson's striking against Khabib was lauded as among the most effective to date, leading up to the Conor McGregor title defense fight.

Michael Johnson winging hay maker/ looping punches, whiffing all along, arm punching absent boxer body mechanics, leading with his head and chin, leaning out of stance, slopping up a jerky front kick that goes part way, and on & on.  And this is a top UFC competitor going up against the fearsome Khabib N., the master grappler?   Chasing Khabib haphazardly all around the Octagon.  No wonder Khabib always gets the takedown

These MMA Camps don't produce masters of anything.  MMA Camps in the USA produce aggressive, physically fit guys (and gals) who know how to go out & kick and punch through elemental striking drills, for the most part.  The grappling quality is higher somewhat because  we have the Gracie BJJ which is a well developed art.  Khabib's wrestling is off the charts comparatively speaking in MMA.  Other good wrestlers came along in MMA,such as Matt Hughes, GSP developed some good wrestling.

MMA strikers can't even begin to compare with the effective striking we see in formal JKA REGIONAL Championships.  Here nice example.
*SAJKA 2018 Day 2 - Highlights - Elite Divisions*
1,852 views







Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
Published on Aug 12, 2018

I wouldn't vote any of these regional competitor top echelon at the World competition level.  They are, however, working on self mastery, landing strikes efficiently & effectively.  It's point fighting for cripes sake, and there are instances of stopping, dropping the opponent in their tracks.  Yeah, good karate tournament striking can stuff, stop & drop the oncoming grappler spot on.  The Michael Johnson's too, all in principle.

Sorry Royce, move over, there's a new karate sheriff in town!!!!


----------



## Martial D

ShotoNoob said:


> Yep by my approach, you are lost.
> 
> 
> 
> Sentence 1.  Yep, Traditional karate the art speaks of that self-mastery.
> 
> Sentence 2. Well, there's a difference in method between TMA and combat sports.  So then there is a difference in self-mastery if you concur on the premise.
> 
> 
> 
> Most MMA fighter we in the major venues are relatively unskilled animals.  They are conditioned heavily, that I'll grant. They are aggressive at putting out some kind of technique bet it Muay Thai or BJJ, etc.   Only a minor percentage have any level of skill.  And self-mastery is a rare commodity in MMA indeed.
> 
> Here's prime beef example.
> *Was Khabib Rocked Against Michael Johnson? Joe Rogan Exposed*
> 134,332 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FR MMA 2
> Published on Apr 12, 2018
> 
> Michael Johnson's striking against Khabib was lauded as among the most effective to date, leading up to the Conor McGregor title defense fight.
> 
> Michael Johnson winging hay maker/ looping punches, whiffing all along, arm punching absent boxer body mechanics, leading with his head and chin, leaning out of stance, slopping up a jerky front kick that goes part way, and on & on.  And this is a top UFC competitor going up against the fearsome Khabib N., the master grappler?   Chasing Khabib haphazardly all around the Octagon.  No wonder Khabib always gets the takedown
> 
> These MMA Camps don't produce masters of anything.  MMA Camps in the USA produce aggressive, physically fit guys (and gals) who know how to go out & kick and punch through elemental striking drills, for the most part.  The grappling quality is higher somewhat because  we have the Gracie BJJ which is a well developed art.  Khabib's wrestling is off the charts comparatively speaking in MMA.  Other good wrestlers came along in MMA,such as Matt Hughes, GSP developed some good wrestling.
> 
> MMA strikers can't even begin to compare with the effective striking we see in formal JKA REGIONAL Championships.  Here nice example.
> *SAJKA 2018 Day 2 - Highlights - Elite Divisions*
> 1,852 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
> Published on Aug 12, 2018
> 
> I wouldn't vote any of these regional competitor top echelon at the World competition level.  They are, however, working on self mastery, landing strikes efficiently & effectively.  It's point fighting for cripes sake, and there are instances of stopping, dropping the opponent in their tracks.  Yeah, good karate tournament striking can stuff, stop & drop the oncoming grappler spot on.
> 
> Sorry Royce, move over, there's a new karate sheriff in town!!!!


Ok, so as hard as it is to take you seriously, I'll offer you one minute of serious discussion. I'm not sure you will understand, or that I will be able to decipher any reply you offer, but here goes anyway.

If you don't spar, fight, or compete regularly, you will suck at fighting. It doesn't matter how good your kata is, how clean your karate moves are, or even how fast you are or how hard you can hit.

There are two reasons for this.

Timing.

Distance.

There is simply no way to train these things without a moving human being in front of you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Ok as one concept let's look at mud runs. Back in the day I did an army obstacle course. Which honestly mud runs look harder.
> 
> Now interestingly women were not expected to complete them. Women can't be soldiers. They can't lift their own body weight, can't do push ups. So on and so forth.
> 
> And now soccer moms are doing what nobody thought soldiers could do.
> 
> That is your one day a week person who when given the opportunity to be better  Becomes better


Mud runs aren't that hard, except where they are. And the only people who are completing those hard parts are those who are already athletic, or those who train for them. Soccer mom probably isn't, unless she finds it important enough to train for. Most people walk generous portions of the course. So yeah, people are doing more than they used to, when they decide it's important enough.

Here's where your statement doesn't hold up, man. See, at most MA schools, there are a bunch of classes. At my instructor's school, there are probably 12 adult classes a week. People could go to as many of those as they like. Most people go to 1-3 of them. That's the same average (about 2) as back when my first instructor had a smaller school and only guaranteed you could attend your 2 classes a week. Students also have plenty of options for getting more fit, but most only do the exercise that's made part of class, unless they were already doing some other exercise. Most don't train outside class.

Nobody limits how much time students can spend on their training, except the students. And they choose what seems right for their life.

The same holds true for intensity of training. Back when I was training my hardest at that school, I had trouble finding partners who wanted to go that hard. And my hardest back then was probably closer to the norm you'd see in many MMA schools. So, it wasn't like I was having animal day all the time - I was just working up a good sweat and testing my limits a bit. And most folks wanted to take their normal pace. Nobody limited their intensity to that, except themselves.

I don't limit the intensity students can train at, except when it gets near safety margins. Students don't typically get anywhere near where I'd even worry about that.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Martial D said:


> Ok, so as hard as it is to take you seriously, I'll offer you one minute of serious discussion. I'm not sure you will understand, or that I will be able to decipher any reply you offer, but here goes anyway.



Well thanks for giving it a try.  GPS has been all alone in spirited effort on this topic.



Martial D said:


> If you don't spar, fight, or compete regularly, you will suck at fighting.



Ah, premise, analysis and conclusion in 12 words.  Good read a decent karate manual, come back and try again.



Martial D said:


> It doesn't matter how *good* your kata is, how_* clean*_ your karate moves are, or even how fast you are or how hard you can hit.



Using "good" and "clean" and vauge, formless, essentially meaningless descriptors.  You state a premise here, that is all.



Martial D said:


> There are two reasons for this.
> 
> Timing.
> 
> Distance.



Well now here is the analysis, a two part one.  Two reasons, then the two what I will call principles. 

Principle #1: Timing
Principle #2: Distance

Okey dokey.  That's something.

This is what you are summing up martial arts skill as?  Two word?  No definition, No description even.  WOW... the boxing professionals alone should be rolling their eyes.  I suppose I should replace the entire traditional karate curriculm / manual / method with two, not even defined "principle" words.   A martial college profession in the making.



Martial D said:


> There is simply no way to train these things without a moving human being in front of you.



State the premise and conclusion in a single sentence in your argument.  Hope you aren't representing any one in court.  Or pitching a business plan for funding.

I do see this proposition 1000's of time from MMA Camps on "WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT TO BE A GOOD FIGHTER IN MMA."  Yep timing & distance have to get that.  That's it!  Get it.

I'm going to get a sample vid right know, just to back you up!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Yep by my approach, you are lost.
> 
> 
> 
> Sentence 1.  Yep, Traditional karate the art speaks of that self-mastery.
> 
> Sentence 2. Well, there's a difference in method between TMA and combat sports.  So then there is a difference in self-mastery if you concur on the premise.
> 
> 
> 
> Most MMA fighter we in the major venues are relatively unskilled animals.  They are conditioned heavily, that I'll grant. They are aggressive at putting out some kind of technique bet it Muay Thai or BJJ, etc.   Only a minor percentage have any level of skill.  And self-mastery is a rare commodity in MMA indeed.
> 
> Here's prime beef example.
> *Was Khabib Rocked Against Michael Johnson? Joe Rogan Exposed*
> 134,332 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FR MMA 2
> Published on Apr 12, 2018
> 
> Michael Johnson's striking against Khabib was lauded as among the most effective to date, leading up to the Conor McGregor title defense fight.
> 
> Michael Johnson winging hay maker/ looping punches, whiffing all along, arm punching absent boxer body mechanics, leading with his head and chin, leaning out of stance, slopping up a jerky front kick that goes part way, and on & on.  And this is a top UFC competitor going up against the fearsome Khabib N., the master grappler?   Chasing Khabib haphazardly all around the Octagon.  No wonder Khabib always gets the takedown
> 
> These MMA Camps don't produce masters of anything.  MMA Camps in the USA produce aggressive, physically fit guys (and gals) who know how to go out & kick and punch through elemental striking drills, for the most part.  The grappling quality is higher somewhat because  we have the Gracie BJJ which is a well developed art.  Khabib's wrestling is off the charts comparatively speaking in MMA.  Other good wrestlers came along in MMA,such as Matt Hughes, GSP developed some good wrestling.
> 
> MMA strikers can't even begin to compare with the effective striking we see in formal JKA REGIONAL Championships.  Here nice example.
> *SAJKA 2018 Day 2 - Highlights - Elite Divisions*
> 1,852 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
> Published on Aug 12, 2018
> 
> I wouldn't vote any of these regional competitor top echelon at the World competition level.  They are, however, working on self mastery, landing strikes efficiently & effectively.  It's point fighting for cripes sake, and there are instances of stopping, dropping the opponent in their tracks.  Yeah, good karate tournament striking can stuff, stop & drop the oncoming grappler spot on.  The Michael Johnson's too, all in principle.
> 
> Sorry Royce, move over, there's a new karate sheriff in town!!!!


If you think...you know what, never mind. You're not listening.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Martial D said:


> Ok, so as hard as it is to take you seriously, I'll offer you one minute of serious discussion. I'm not sure you will understand, or that I will be able to decipher any reply you offer, but here goes anyway.
> 
> If you don't spar, fight, or compete regularly, you will suck at fighting. It doesn't matter how good your kata is, how clean your karate moves are, or even how fast you are or how hard you can hit.
> 
> There are two reasons for this.
> 
> Timing.
> 
> Distance.
> 
> There is simply no way to train these things without a moving human being in front of you.



Hey, I promised to get back.  Mastery of timing & distance.  Here we go according to is it Hanzou?
*Boxing vs Jiu-Jitsu: Can You Get the Takedown?*
36,934 views







Dojo Mark
Published on May 9, 2017

Dojo Mark of Dojo Americana is doing just what you advocate.  Live opponent boxer.  BJJ (ah practice wrestling Dojoj Mark adds) coming in repeatedly over & over & over & over, getting that_ timing & distance down?_  The one BJJ student, Dojo Mark proclaims, is better at timing and distancing in grappling because he competed in boxing as a teenager.

Problem solved.  JKA Japan, close down right away.  Dojo American is where it's at.


----------



## Martial D

ShotoNoob said:


> Hey, I promised to get back.  Mastery of timing & distance.  Here we go according to is it Hanzou?
> *Boxing vs Jiu-Jitsu: Can You Get the Takedown?*
> 36,934 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dojo Mark
> Published on May 9, 2017
> 
> Dojo Mark of Dojo Americana is doing just what you advocate.  Live opponent boxer.  BJJ (ah practice wrestling Dojoj Mark adds) coming in repeatedly over & over & over & over, getting that_ timing & distance down?_  The one BJJ student, Dojo Mark proclaims, is better at timing and distancing in grappling because he competed in boxing as a teenager.
> 
> Problem solved.  JKA Japan, close down right away.  Dojo American is where it's at.



Ok, so you missed my point..or you got it but your reply still makes no sense. Either way, I gave it a shot.

For the record, what is your native language?


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> If you think...you know what, never mind. You're not listening.



You think? Well partially made, wandering, inconclusive, phrases aren't answering.  I do think.  It's a strong point to have in traditional martial arts.

Look, GPS, you have your own brand of aikido-jutsu grappling, which you have evolved just like MMA thinking.  Here's an MMA heart-warmer to pause the controls on for now.
*JOANNA JEDRZEJCZYK VS. ROSE NAMAJUNAS - FIGHT HIGHLIGHTS (HD*
821 views







FightRadio
Published on Nov 5, 2017

Nobody in WMMA, nobody has more experience on striking "timing & distancing," than Joanna Jedrzejczyk.  Muay Thai champion with hundreds, (literally) hundreds of Muay Thai and kick boxing matches, it's so reported.  Vaunted as the best WMMA striker of her time, until that is, a string of what was it, 14? unbroken victories against all those modernly trained MMA competitors all primed for that realistic MMA fighting.

BOOM.  Petite little passive Ross Namajunas, knocks JJ down then again & out how far into Round 1?  Not long.  Couple minutes.  HUH?  Guess that timing & distancing training by TOP MMA  Camp, ATT with it's roster of big name MMA competitors made a miscalculation somewhere in it's MMA striking routines.  Pro Am boxing skill took out their girl straightaway.

MMA doesn't make for a standard in anything.  It's a test of competitors who want to do full contact combat sports.  That is all.

Timing & distancing ATT, yeah we got it all!


----------



## ShotoNoob

Martial D said:


> Ok, so you missed my point..or you got it but your reply still makes no sense. Either way, I gave it a shot.
> 
> For the record, what is your native language?



I missed your point.  What point?  WORDS 1&2?

I make no sense.  You are serious, right?  You have sense?

Native language,? now that's progress in a discussion.  Bravo.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> And now soccer moms are doing what nobody thought soldiers could do.




They are just running away from their kids!


----------



## Tez3

FriedRice said:


> moooooooooooooo.



Are you alright or having a 'moment' ?


----------



## FriedRice

Tez3 said:


> Are you alright or having a 'moment' ?



oink


----------



## FriedRice

ShotoNoob said:


> You think? Well partially made, wandering, inconclusive, phrases aren't answering.  I do think.  It's a strong point to have in traditional martial arts.
> 
> Look, GPS, you have your own brand of aikido-jutsu grappling, which you have evolved just like MMA thinking.



Wrong. GSP is MMA with a Karatechop background. There are plenty of Karate chopping MMA gyms with great fighters you know.



> Here's an MMA heart-warmer to pause the controls on for now.
> *JOANNA JEDRZEJCZYK VS. ROSE NAMAJUNAS - FIGHT HIGHLIGHTS (HD*
> 821 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FightRadio
> Published on Nov 5, 2017



What does that prove? They're both MMA.



> Nobody in WMMA, nobody has more experience on striking "timing & distancing," than Joanna Jedrzejczyk.  Muay Thai champion with hundreds, (literally) hundreds of Muay Thai and kick boxing matches, it's so reported.



Babe, go look up her record first, it's not even, ONE hundred....let alone "literally hundreds" of fights.



> Vaunted as the best WMMA striker of her time, until that is, a string of what was it, 14? unbroken victories against all those modernly trained MMA competitors all primed for that realistic MMA fighting.



BOOM.  Petite little passive Ross Namajunas, knocks JJ down then again & out how far into Round 1?  Not long.  Couple minutes.  HUH?  Guess that timing & distancing training by TOP MMA  Camp, ATT with it's roster of big name MMA competitors made a miscalculation somewhere in it's MMA striking routines.  Pro Am boxing skill took out their girl straightaway. [/QUOTE]

Big deal? Nobody's unbeatable. Western Boxing + Muay Thai is what RN trains and it usually beats Muay Thai.



> MMA doesn't make for a standard in anything.  It's a test of competitors who want to do full contact combat sports.  That is all.
> 
> Timing & distancing ATT, yeah we got it all!



Says you, who never trained MMA, let alone fought full contact in it. "BOOM"?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

ShotoNoob said:


> Look, GPS, you have your own brand of aikido-jutsu grappling





FriedRice said:


> Wrong. GSP is MMA with a Karatechop background. There are plenty of Karate chopping MMA gyms with great fighters you know.


FYI, ShotoNoob was talking _to_ gpseymour (G_PS_) not _about_ George St Pierre (G_SP_).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI, ShotoNoob was talking _to_ gpseymour (G_PS_) not _about_ George St Pierre (G_SP_).


Agreed. Although in fairness to @FriedRice, @ShotoNoob has reversed my initials a few times, calling me GSP. I also think FR has me on ignore, which will make it hard to follow that bit.


----------



## ShotoNoob

FriedRice said:


> Wrong. GSP is MMA with a Karatechop background. There are plenty of Karate chopping MMA gyms with great fighters you know.



Karatechop background(s).  Tnx for filling us in.



FriedRice said:


> What does that prove? They're both MMA.


Nothing to FiredRyces.  Isn't it time for your heavy bag workout, then nap?


FriedRice said:


> Babe, go look up her record first, it's not even, ONE hundred....let alone "literally hundreds" of fights.


Okay, Mr. Statistician.  Buddy to Babe, a progression!  That's the ticket.  Karate tradition may suit you yet.


FriedRice said:


> BOOM.  Petite little passive Ross Namajunas, knocks JJ down then again & out how far into Round 1?  Not long.  Couple minutes.  HUH?  Guess that timing & distancing training by TOP MMA  Camp, ATT with it's roster of big name MMA competitors made a miscalculation somewhere in it's MMA striking routines.  Pro Am boxing skill took out their girl straightaway.
> 
> Big deal? Nobody's unbeatable. Western Boxing + Muay Thai is what RN trains and it usually beats Muay Thai.



Huh, I thought it was a big deal to JJ.  And all the Muay Thai super Tiger fighters.  To see their standard bearer go down in flames.  Tiger Muay Thai ain't so top after all.  YOU SAID IT.

Gee, I thought you were going to credit TKD that Rose started like your shallow GSP comment earlier.  At least you could consistent in you MMA marketing rhetoric.  Fly'd Ryce, what'd expect.



FriedRice said:


> Says you, who never trained MMA, let alone fought full contact in it. "BOOM"?



Oh, the appeal to authority argument.  What you mean if you're dumb enough to get your head caved in, you're smart (dumb) enough to be able to speak on the subject.  Dumb & dumber finally arrived.

Left out what many of the 'big name' MMA training camps are now saying on the subject.

Closing Comment:  What school(s) are you advertising for.  Let me guess?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI, ShotoNoob was talking _to_ gpseymour (G_PS_) not _about_ George St Pierre (G_SP_).


*



			TONY DISMUKES’ POST:
		
Click to expand...

*


> So here’s the deal regarding jiu-jitsu and strength:
> 
> Jiu-jitsu is absolutely about using strength. To be precise, it’s about using your available strength as efficiently and effectively as possible, When you see criticism about someone “muscling through a technique”, the problem isn’t that they’re using strength – it’s that they’re wasting strength. Either they’re trying to overpower their opponent’s strength head on (which will only work as long as the person doing the technique is the stronger one) or they’re using their strength in an inefficient fashion which involves more effort than necessary, causing them to tire out and deplete their reserves of strength prematurely.
> 
> That’s how jiu-jitsu can allow you to overcome a stronger opponent. When I outgrapple someone who is twice as strong as I am, it’s because I’m using my available strength more than twice.



SOURCE: Self Defense Academy of Western NC

See Tony, now this makes sense.  It's well thought out, presented clearly & conveys substance.

Now try that in your replies.  You sound like someone let the air out of your ballon.


----------



## FriedRice

ShotoNoob said:


> Karatechop background(s).  Tnx for filling us in.
> 
> 
> Nothing to FiredRyces.  Isn't it time for your heavy bag workout, then nap?
> 
> Okay, Mr. Statistician.  Buddy to Babe, a progression!  That's the ticket.  Karate tradition may suit you yet.



The truth hurts, babe? When's your nap time? After some tipyy-tappy sparring?



> Huh, I thought it was a big deal to JJ.  And all the Muay Thai super Tiger fighters.  To see their standard bearer go down in flames.  Tiger Muay Thai ain't so top after all.  YOU SAID IT.



Seems to only matter to the Karatechoppers like yourself, even when Rose probably trains mostly Boxing, Sanda and BJJ.



> Gee, I thought you were going to credit TKD that Rose started like your shallow GSP comment earlier.  At least you could consistent in you MMA marketing rhetoric.  Fly'd Ryce, what'd expect.



Sorry Karatechopper, but I guess mommy put you in a strip mall Karate dojo so now you think that means everything to a Pro Fighter.



> Oh, the appeal to authority argument.  What you mean if you're dumb enough to get your head caved in, you're smart (dumb) enough to be able to speak on the subject.  Dumb & dumber finally arrived.
> 
> Left out what many of the 'big name' MMA training camps are now saying on the subject.
> 
> Closing Comment:  What school(s) are you advertising for.  Let me guess?



Crying now because you can't make an argument?


----------



## FriedRice

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI, ShotoNoob was talking _to_ gpseymour (G_PS_) not _about_ George St Pierre (G_SP_).



oh, haha.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. Although in fairness to @FriedRice, @ShotoNoob has reversed my initials a few times, calling me GSP. I also think FR has me on ignore, which will make it hard to follow that bit.



Yeah, us MMA fans have GSP engrained in our heads.  One of my fav fights of his was his loss to Brawler Matt Serra, who GSP tried some clever TriStar boxing with.  Got GSP smashed.

Later however, we found out GSP wasn't prepared mentally for that fight according to his later commentary.  We're all human and he had personal troubles weighing him down.  And funny like me, he says personally he hates full contact fighting.  Wow.  GSP & I feel the same way!


----------



## ShotoNoob

FriedRice said:


> Seems to only matter to the Karatechoppers like yourself, even when Rose probably trains mostly Boxing, Sanda and BJJ.



Applies to 4th graders.  Wright on BUDDY.




FriedRice said:


> Sorry Karatechopper, but I guess mommy put you in a strip mall Karate dojo so now you think that means everything to a Pro Fighter.



Applies to 4th graders.  Wright on BUDDY.



FriedRice said:


> Crying now because you can't make an argument?



Applies to 4th graders.  Wright on BUDDY.

and YOU WIN.  "Rose probably trains mostly Boxing, Sanda and BJJ."  That's some analysis there.  YOU THE MAN!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

ShotoNoob said:


> SOURCE: Self Defense Academy of Western NC
> 
> See Tony, now this makes sense.  It's well thought out, presented clearly & conveys substance.
> 
> Now try that in your replies.  You sound like someone let the air out of your ballon.


Here we have another example of why people are having a hard time understanding the points you are trying to make.

First you quote a brief comment I made clarifying who you were referring to in an earlier reply.

Then you quote a much longer essay I wrote on a completely unrelated topic.

Then you complement the essay and suggest I write that way in my replies, then you insult the way I am writing.

Are you suggesting the first quote should have been an extensive essay? That hardly seems appropriate for a brief clarification that only needed one sentence.

Are you suggesting that the second quote isn't the way I write in conversations on MartialTalk? If so, you should probably realize that even though you found that bit of writing on Gerry's website, it's actually just copied and pasted from one of the threads here. I think most of the regulars on MartialTalk would probably recognize it as my writing style.

You're taking the time and effort to write a fair number of longish posts on this forum. I expect that means you would like people to understand the arguments you are making. Unfortunately, I think most of us are pretty confused by now as to what you are actually trying to say most of the time. I'd suggest that for the moment you put aside the videos, quotes, and personal attacks to focus on clearly explaining your points.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI, ShotoNoob was talking _to_ gpseymour (G_PS_) not _about_ George St Pierre (G_SP_).


I thought he was making some weird reference to GPS mapping systems.  Like somehow he was on the right course, found his compass, something like that.

I cannot make sense of the fellow.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I think it depends how they train. TMA isn't a consistent training model, so if you sent those folks to 100 random TMA programs, you're probably going to get a huge range of results. As we've discussed before, one of the advantages of some types of competition is they tend to weed out programs/instructors who can't deliver a win, or at least a competitive...competitor. A good TMA school, with a focus on what actually works in a fight (as we've talked about before - not actually the focus of all TMA schools), should be able to produce reasonable results in that same timeframe. I'd guess they'll be in the same ballpark, under that last assumption. Of course, that also has to assume all 300 stay in the program - competition does tend to also weed out people who don't develop as fast or are less gifted (not a universal, but a general truism). Of course, the question remains...are we talking about TMA with no competition? I'd guess that TMA with competition (something roughly similar to the format we're evaluating on) will have somewhat better results than if there's no competition. Internal (informal) competition inside the school will be better than no competition, but probably less effective than open competition.
> 
> All that presupposes the competition we're talking about (including the combat sport) are training something in alignment with the assessment we're doing at the end. BJJ fare badly if the end test is striking, but better if it's fewer rules. And a similar setup for boxing (though they seem to be less adaptable to open rules if they don't train to it). Likewise, a TMA school that doesn't train to a similar fight style to the ruleset will have more trouble.


My hypothesis is that the range of results would not be as wide as you think.  I wish we could do this study.  I think it would be worthwhile.

The other study I would Like to do is a statistical analysis of actual self defense situations.  My hypothesis is that people who train in any martial art regardless of style are no more likely to survive  in self-defense than those who don't train in a martial art at all.  In other words people who don't train martial arts Will Survive physical encounters at the same rate as people who do trained in martial arts.  Further I think that it really has more to do with Fitness and willingness to fight back then ability to fight or skill.


----------



## FriedRice

ShotoNoob said:


> Applies to 4th graders.  Wright on BUDDY.
> 
> 
> Applies to 4th graders.  Wright on BUDDY.
> 
> 
> 
> Applies to 4th graders.  Wright on BUDDY.
> 
> and YOU WIN.  "Rose probably trains mostly Boxing, Sanda and BJJ."  That's some analysis there.  YOU THE MAN!




Wow, you're really smart for a 4th grader.  Although you should get mommy to have you checked out as.....  "Restricted and *repetitive behaviors* and interests are among the three core *symptoms of autism".*


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> My hypothesis is that the range of results would not be as wide as you think.  I wish we could do this study.  I think it would be worthwhile.
> 
> The other study I would Like to do is a statistical analysis of actual self defense situations.  My hypothesis is that people who train in any martial art regardless of style are no more likely to survive  in self-defense than those who don't train in a martial art at all.  In other words people who don't train martial arts Will Survive physical encounters at the same rate as people who do trained in martial arts.  Further I think that it really has more to do with Fitness and willingness to fight back then ability to fight or skill.


Both of those are possible. Unlikely, in my estimation, but possible. 

The former would defy the experience of a lot of people, that training methods matter.

The latter is too undefined to work for statistics in any case. Some types of attack are less likely to become more survivable by fighting skills. Some others likely do change. There’s really too broad a spectrum to treat them all as one. It’s kind of like talking about illness.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Both of those are possible. Unlikely, in my estimation, but possible.
> 
> The former would defy the experience of a lot of people, that training methods matter.


training methods do matter.  Just to be more specific, if you took 100 WC or Ninjutsu guys, 100 MMA guys and 100 untrained guys (all guys in a generic, random sense), the MMA guys would undoubtedly perform better.  The only question in my mind is whether there would be any appreciable difference in fighting skill between the ninjas and the control group.  Hard to say.





> The latter is too undefined to work for statistics in any case. Some types of attack are less likely to become more survivable by fighting skills. Some others likely do change. There’s really too broad a spectrum to treat them all as one. It’s kind of like talking about illness.


could easily work, but you're right that it would need to be better defined.  The real challenge is in collecting the data.


----------



## Yokozuna514

Steve said:


> My hypothesis is that the range of results would not be as wide as you think.  I wish we could do this study.  I think it would be worthwhile.
> 
> The other study I would Like to do is a statistical analysis of actual self defense situations.  My hypothesis is that people who train in any martial art regardless of style are no more likely to survive  in self-defense than those who don't train in a martial art at all.  In other words people who don't train martial arts Will Survive physical encounters at the same rate as people who do trained in martial arts.  Further I think that it really has more to do with Fitness and willingness to fight back then ability to fight or skill.


All things created equal, a person who trains in a martial art and is used to being hit will have a better chance to remain calm and allow their training to protect them more than a equal person who is not used to being hit.

We see this phenomenon in a controlled setting in Kyokushin.  Newer belts have more of a tendency to forget their training during kumite matches the first time they take a hard shot than higher belts who are more seasoned fighters.

Of course kumite competition is not at all like having your life threatened and you are required to use self defence but it is as close as you can get to practice hitting and being hit, imho.

Also true that survivability is more about being able and willing to fight butbif these two criteria were equal and the only criteria that was different was the one person had training and the other didn’t, I would put my money on the person with training to be have a better chance to survive but again the art that they train in should have a large aspect where the students train to be hit as well as to hit.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> training methods do matter.  Just to be more specific, if you took 100 WC or Ninjutsu guys, 100 MMA guys and 100 untrained guys (all guys in a generic, random sense), the MMA guys would undoubtedly perform better.  The only question in my mind is whether there would be any appreciable difference in fighting skill between the ninjas and the control group.


I can't really speak to those styles, but good training methods work in TMA, too. Would MMA fare better? That probably depends what we include in TMA. Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA (that's really the base for most of MMA, after all). And where do we draw the line on what is and is not traditional. My view of that is likely quite different from many others.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> training methods do matter.  Just to be more specific, if you took 100 WC or Ninjutsu guys, 100 MMA guys and 100 untrained guys (all guys in a generic, random sense), the MMA guys would undoubtedly perform better.  The only question in my mind is whether there would be any appreciable difference in fighting skill between the ninjas and the control group.  Hard to say.could easily work, but you're right that it would need to be better defined.  The real challenge is in collecting the data.



I was going to do a whole thread on this. But never really figured out how to put the whole thing in to ma manageable essay.


If say you had just found out you were a wimp. Someone who you thought shouldn't have beaten the tar out of you did. And you wanted to fix it.

First you would need to identify the problem.

It may be the system. You might be doing stuff that just doesn't work. Or work as well. (So when bjj was getting mauled by leg locks as an example)

It may be the training or the instructor. So the techniques are sound but you are training it in a way that isn't efficient or effective.

You could be physically at fault. Not strong enough. Not fit enough.

You could be mentally at fault. Willpower, discipline or agression.

Or it could be a combination of things.

(Now I was going to go in to how to identify and fix. But logically assessing and then doing tasks that would repair those issues is pretty common sense. And I can't be stuffed.)

But to identify one aspect and suggest it is universal and untreatable is untrue. People who are doing that will never be able to fix the problem.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

gpseymour said:


> I can't really speak to those styles, but good training methods work in TMA, too. Would MMA fare better? That probably depends what we include in TMA. Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA (that's really the base for most of MMA, after all). And where do we draw the line on what is and is not traditional. My view of that is likely quite different from many others.


Which part of that did you disagree with, Steve?


----------



## ShotoNoob

-


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Which part of that did you disagree with, Steve?



The methods either work or they don't. And we can see that in competition. Which is observable and repeatable. 

If the competition does not match your testing objectives. Then you need to come up with a competition or an experiment that does.

And then you can say based on my research.......

If they don't work. Logical arguments why they should work. Won't make them work.

You are arguing a flat earth.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> The methods either work or they don't. And we can see that in competition. Which is observable and repeatable.
> 
> If the competition does not match your testing objectives. Then you need to come up with a competition or an experiment that does.
> 
> And then you can say based on my research.......
> 
> If they don't work. Logical arguments why they should work. Won't make them work.
> 
> You are arguing a flat earth.


What are you on about? Where in any of what I said did I claim different methods work for TMA than for MMA, or any such?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> What are you on about? Where in any of what I said did I claim different methods work for TMA than for MMA, or any such?





gpseymour said:


> Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA (that's really the base for most of MMA, after all).



If they have similar skills they will get similar results.

If they are not getting similar results. Let's look again at these skills shall we?

Especially something like ninjitsu. It trains stand up, ground fighting, weapons the whole spectrum. And yet the results don't  match up.

Pro wrestling doesn't train the same skills as wrestling.





They just try to look like they do.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> If they have similar skills they will get similar results.
> 
> If they are not getting similar results. Let's look again at these skills shall we?
> 
> Especially something like ninjitsu. It trains stand up, ground fighting, weapons the whole spectrum. And yet the results don't  match up.
> 
> Pro wrestling doesn't train the same skills as wrestling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They just try to look like they do.


Is Ninjutsu the same as Cross-training? Is the same spectrum of skills the same as the same skills, or the same skill level? 

You're saying I'm arguing flat-earth, based on arguments I've not made. 

(@Steve, does that satisfy your requirements for a strawman?)


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Is Ninjutsu the same as Cross-training? Is the same spectrum of skills the same as the same skills, or the same skill level?
> 
> You're saying I'm arguing flat-earth, based on arguments I've not made.
> 
> (@Steve, does that satisfy your requirements for a strawman?)



Depends how you have cross trained. 

You cross train and I cross train so therefore we are basically the same thing. Is that what you are trying to say here?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> Depends how you have cross trained.
> 
> You cross train and I cross train so therefore we are basically the same thing. Is that what you are trying to say here?


No, but you have the potential too. I cross-train and so do you, but I would bet that you'd do better in competition. Not because your MT and BJJ (or whatever you cross train) is inherently better than kempo and judo/sambo, but because You put more time and effort into your training. If you trained once a week, and I was still training every day, I would bet on myself in a competition, even if you train at a MMA-specific gym.

Now if my kempo schools were crap, and what I learned is ineffective, that wouldn't be the case, but since I've seen people I've train with win kickboxing and MMA matches, I have some evidence that it's effective, if non-traditional for MMA.


----------



## drop bear

kempodisciple said:


> No, but you have the potential too. I cross-train and so do you, but I would bet that you'd do better in competition. Not because your MT and BJJ (or whatever you cross train) is inherently better than kempo and judo/sambo, but because You put more time and effort into your training. If you trained once a week, and I was still training every day, I would bet on myself in a competition, even if you train at a MMA-specific gym.
> 
> Now if my kempo schools were crap, and what I learned is ineffective, that wouldn't be the case, but since I've seen people I've train with win kickboxing and MMA matches, I have some evidence that it's effective, if non-traditional for MMA.



Ok. But you are basing success of training on evidence.

If your Kempo guys got routinely mauled. You then might need to look at how your training is different to guys who don't.

And training once a week vs every day might be the factor. But it still may not. You would have to do it to find out.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Steve said:


> Just to be more specific, if you took 100 WC or Ninjutsu guys, 100 MMA guys and 100 untrained guys (all guys in a generic, random sense), the MMA guys would undoubtedly perform better. The only question in my mind is whether there would be any appreciable difference in fighting skill between the ninjas and the control group. Hard to say.


For what it's worth, the time I spent training in the Bujinkan (“ninjutsu”) did improve my ability to fight. Just not nearly as much as my time spent training Muay Thai, boxing, and BJJ.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here we have another example of why people are having a hard time understanding the points you are trying to make.



Tony, here we have [yet] another example of why TMA fails in MMA.  Oh, and it's Tony, "representative of the people."  You mean the MMA minded groupies you hang out with.  The "people," who went from TMA to the MMA business.



Tony Dismukes said:


> First you quote a brief comment I made clarifying who you were referring to in an earlier reply.
> 
> Then you quote a much longer essay I wrote on a completely unrelated topic.
> 
> Then you complement the essay and suggest I write that way in my replies, then you insult the way I am writing.



Change "...then you insult the way I am writing;" to "the insults that I wrote;" and we'll be on the same page.  Who's this dribble meant for, impressionable MMA adolescents who are wandering around on the 'net?



Tony Dismukes said:


> Are you suggesting the first quote should have been an extensive essay? That hardly seems appropriate for a brief clarification that only needed one sentence.
> 
> Are you suggesting that the second quote isn't the way I write in conversations on MartialTalk? If so, you should probably realize that even though you found that bit of writing on Gerry's website, it's actually just copied and pasted from one of the threads here. I think most of the regulars on MartialTalk would probably recognize it as my writing style.



Tony, here's what I'm suggesting.  When you show up at my thread posts, come with your gi pressed, you belt tied correctly and snug, and be ready to listen, learn and make a substantiative contribution.  Put 1 + 1 together, or try to.



Tony Dismukes said:


> You're taking the time and effort to write a fair number of longish posts on this forum. I expect that means you would like people to understand the arguments you are making. Unfortunately, I think most of us are pretty confused by now as to what you are actually trying to say most of the time. I'd suggest that for the moment you put aside the videos, quotes, and personal attacks to focus on clearly explaining your points.



Tony of the "people"again.  Yes Tony, the "people" are behind you.  Add to my requirement to all new students as per the previous directive, bring yourself as an individual.  Stop leaning like a groupie on your MMA cohorts.  Stand tall.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> I was going to do a whole thread on this. But never really figured out how to put the whole thing in to ma manageable essay.
> 
> 
> If say you had just found out you were a wimp. Someone who you thought shouldn't have beaten the tar out of you did. And you wanted to fix it.
> 
> First you would need to identify the problem.
> 
> It may be the system. You might be doing stuff that just doesn't work. Or work as well. (So when bjj was getting mauled by leg locks as an example)
> 
> It may be the training or the instructor. So the techniques are sound but you are training it in a way that isn't efficient or effective.
> 
> You could be physically at fault. Not strong enough. Not fit enough.
> 
> You could be mentally at fault. Willpower, discipline or agression.
> 
> Or it could be a combination of things.
> 
> (Now I was going to go in to how to identify and fix. But logically assessing and then doing tasks that would repair those issues is pretty common sense. And I can't be stuffed.)
> 
> But to identify one aspect and suggest it is universal and untreatable is untrue. People who are doing that will never be able to fix the problem.



Drop Beaar, where's my byline?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> For what it's worth, the time I spent training in the Bujinkan (“ninjutsu”) did improve my ability to fight. Just not nearly as much as my time spent training Muay Thai, boxing, and BJJ.



I thought so, after seein' that video.  TMA @ it's worst-est, I can hear MMA now.  Good thing you made the switch from that substandard "Bujinkan" (you name dropper you), to that realistic, modern MMA stuff.  Did wonders for Conor against Khabib.

SBG is the incarnation of taking what's so-called 'best' from TMA, then looking to the sport fighting methods you cite.  Right down the line.  Conor's gotten hit a lot through his MMA career too.  And tons of active sparring too.

BOOM, Khabib drops him Round 2.  Good thing Conor was so used to getting hit.  Helped him a lot in winning that round.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> Ok. But you are basing success of training on evidence.
> 
> If your Kempo guys got routinely mauled. You then might need to look at how your training is different to guys who don't.
> 
> And training once a week vs every day might be the factor. But it still may not. You would have to do it to find out.


But because of that example, and the evidence I have seen, I can say that TMA can be as effective as MMA, or at least that one TMA. I know that (when it comes to striking), kempo has the ability to perform. So I can look at another kempo school of the same style, and I know that their techniques and style have the ability to compete, if they were to train more and in an effective manner.

As I'm writing this, I get the feeling that you agree with it, and what you are arguing has been lost on me...


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ShotoNoob said:


> Tony of the "people"again.  Yes Tony, the "people" are behind you.  Add to my requirement to all new students as per the previous directive, bring yourself as an individual.  Stop leaning like a groupie on your MMA cohorts.  Stand tall.


Except a bunch of people here also commented that we have no clue what you're saying. FYI, I'm not an MMA adolescent, and I also had no clue wtf you were saying for a solid 3 pages.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

ShotoNoob said:


> Oh, and it's Tony, "representative of the people." You mean the MMA minded groupies you hang out with. The "people," who went from TMA to the MMA business.



The people who have already said they're confused about what you are trying to say are a pretty diverse group - practitioners of Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, BJJ, Muay Thai, Kempo ... I think there might be one actual MMA practitioner.



ShotoNoob said:


> Change "...then you insult the way I am writing;" to "the insults that I wrote;" and we'll be on the same page.



Now you're claiming that I'm the one writing insults? Please point them out. I don't think you'll have much luck finding examples. I make a point to stay polite even when I disagree with someone or think they're being belligerent.



ShotoNoob said:


> Tony, here's what I'm suggesting. When you show up at my thread posts, come with your gi pressed, you belt tied correctly and snug, and be ready to listen, learn and make a substantiative contribution. Put 1 + 1 together, or try to.



I make a point to listen, learn, and contribute substantively regardless of who I am responding to. Feel free to point out where and why you think I am failing to do so.



ShotoNoob said:


> Tony of the "people"again. Yes Tony, the "people" are behind you. Add to my requirement to all new students as per the previous directive, bring yourself as an individual. Stop leaning like a groupie on your MMA cohorts. Stand tall.



No one is "behind" me. I am, as an individual, encouraging you to communicate in such a way that you can be understood. I think you might enjoy conversations more this way.

There are practitioners from a wide variety of martial backgrounds participating on this thread. The majority are not MMAers. Do you honestly believe that most of them are following whatever points you are trying to make in your posts?

(BTW - "new students"? Some of us that you're jabbing at have 3, 4, or 5+ decades of training. Remind me of what your training background consists of exactly?)


----------



## Tony Dismukes

ShotoNoob said:


> Good thing you made the switch from that substandard "Bujinkan" (you name dropper you), to that realistic, modern MMA stuff. Did wonders for Conor against Khabib.
> ...
> BOOM, Khabib drops him Round 2.



This sort of non-sequitur is a major reason we're having trouble making sense of what you are trying to say.

Leaving aside the fact that I'm not an MMAer ...

You seem to be implying that the results of the Khabib-Conor fight are in some way relevant to the relative effectiveness of TMA (whatever TMA means to you ... I still can't tell) vs MMA.

Khabib-Conor was a match between two elite practitioners of modern MMA. No matter what happened in that fight, one MMA fighter was going to win and one was going to lose. Whichever one it was can't possibly indicate anything one way or the other about the value of TMA.


----------



## ShotoNoob

kempodisciple said:


> But because of that example, and the evidence I have seen, I can say that TMA can be as effective as MMA, or at least that one TMA. I know that (when it comes to striking), kempo has the ability to perform.



Where is the kempo in MMA?  Nowhere, that's where.



kempodisciple said:


> So I can look at another kempo school of the same style, and I know that their techniques and style have the ability to compete, if they were to train more and in an effective manner.



I recently posted the same opinion about karate styles.  Was told how could I do that?  Definately differences in Goju vs. Shotokan, similarities too depending oh how you slice it.

 And what is a more effective manner of training?  Pls. summarize.



kempodisciple said:


> As I'm writing this, I get the feeling that you agree with it, and what you are arguing has been lost on me...



It's heartening to see at least one TMA you think to be effective in MMA, yours!

EDIT: See we have an explanation as to why TMA isn't well represented in MMA.  Kind hint well [your] Kempo (which isn't seen for miles in MMA) is the one that works.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tony Dismukes said:


> This sort of non-sequitur is a major reason we're having trouble making sense of what you are trying to say.



Oh, I'm failing Blogging 101.  Trouble alert.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Leaving aside the fact that I'm not an MMAer ...


 Big step there Tony.  How do the arts you adopt apply to MMA?  Brief squib all's that's needed.



Tony Dismukes said:


> You seem to be implying that the results of the Khabib-Conor fight are in some way relevant to the relative effectiveness of TMA (whatever TMA means to you ... I still can't tell) vs MMA.



Tony you ARE replying by saying nothing of substance, as usual.  Hey if you still can't tell, you can't tell.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Khabib-Conor was a match between two elite practitioners of modern MMA. No matter what happened in that fight, one MMA fighter was going to win and one was going to lose. Whichever one it was can't possibly indicate anything one way or the other about the value of TMA.



By elite, you mean champions in the UFC?  Modern you mean what time frame?  One competitor was going to win, one was going to lose.  Grade = "F" for substance.  Stating an obvious generalities cast as martial wisdom.

And since the one was going to win and one was going to lose, why continue since it's just a TMA vs. MMA coin toss. Again Tony, very 1-dimensional rhetoric which merely states your position w/o venturing, posting substance.


Better MMA fighter bests losing MMA fighter. A brownie point for working 'elite' in there.


Says a lot.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ShotoNoob said:


> Where is the kempo in MMA?  Nowhere, that's where.


 And? I didn't say it was in MMA. I don't practice MMA. I know it can be effective based on its performance in kickboxing.





> I recently posted the same opinion about karate styles.  Was told how could I do that?  Definately differences in Goju vs. Shotokan, similarities too depending oh how you slice it.


Ok? I have not read that, or if I did, I dind't understand it.



> And what is a more effective manner of training?  Pls. summarize.


The general gist is resistance training, and not over-compliance. Also, not necessarily a focus on fitness in the class, but an acknowledgment that fitness is important. Beyond that, drills that are not just in the air (I've seen both on a person or on a bag be effective), and consistency in the lessons (don't say one day 'keep your knuckles rotated during a reverse punch', then say to rotate them a different way the next day). That's purely for general combat effectiveness, which is what I was addressing, not specific scenarios, or additional SD concerns.





> It's heartening to see at least one TMA you think to be effective in MMA, yours!
> 
> EDIT: See we have an explanation as to why TMA isn't well represented in MMA.  Kind hint well Kempo (which isn't seen for miles in MMA) is the one that works.



I actually think quite a few would be effective. But I don't have any experience that mine is effective in MMA, just kickboxing. I could list them out for you, but first I'd need to know what arts you do/don't consider a TMA.

Also, while others may be too nice to say this, coming onto a site, and just being a general dick to people after assuming you know their stance, isn't the best way to get someone to change their opinion. So either you need to work on that, or you have some other reason of being on here.


----------



## ShotoNoob

kempodisciple said:


> And? I didn't say it was in MMA. I don't practice MMA. I know it can be effective based on its performance in kickboxing.



Agreed.  But yet we are looking at the under-representing of TMA in MMA, not fine-lining how you want to make some literal counter point to every line I write.




kempodisciple said:


> Ok? I have not read that, or if I did, I dind't understand it.
> 
> 
> The general gist is resistance training, and not over-compliance. Also, not necessarily a focus on fitness in the class, but an acknowledgment that fitness is important. Beyond that, drills that are not just in the air (I've seen both on a person or on a bag be effective), and consistency in the lessons (don't say one day 'keep your knuckles rotated during a reverse punch', then say to rotate them a different way the next day). That's purely for general combat effectiveness, which is what I was addressing, not specific scenarios, or additional SD concerns.



Well, as a generality there is some truth in the TMA conditioning not being as rigorous across the board.  The other side of that coin,  and which as been posted here by others, is the amount of dedication varies tremendously.  A TMA practitioner can still obtain great benefits from the TMA approach with modest physical conditioning.

Martial arts in general does better w better conditioning, we should all agree.

On the resistance training, I'm on board with that as a general principle.  And I spoken on that divide in philosophy in my earlier posts.  I will agree many get that proverbial wake up call once the going gets tough, but this is the lazy and unthinking to a large degree, TMA wise.  A majority of practitioners unfortunately.

The latter is why I propose Shotokan karate for MMA minded, because it's traditional practice is very physically oriented.

I get it.  Then those who train under your umbrella are going to have that better level of conditioning to better prepare for the realities when they pop up.



kempodisciple said:


> I actually think quite a few would be effective. But I don't have any experience that mine is effective in MMA, just kickboxing. I could list them out for you, but first I'd need to know what arts you do/don't consider a TMA.



Well, don't wait on me.  We've seen some experienced karate backgrounds do well in MMA, up to a point.  Won't rehash what MMA has rehashed a million times there.



kempodisciple said:


> Also, while others may be too nice to say this, coming onto a site, and just being a general dick to people after assuming you know their stance, isn't the best way to get someone to change their opinion. So either you need to work on that, or you have some other reason of being on here.



Yeah, upset the apple cart by posting traditional karate w substance.  That's tough.  I learned by looking to substance, and not engaging in what you say which on the record in the replies / avoiding the issue / rhetorical unclever responses to my posts.

Those invested in a franchise often shoot down any differing view.  Shoe fit?  In terms of passing judgement, the responsible answer is to address with substance, instead of blank admonishments.  Should someone feel their brand or self-made art adaptation is superior to traditional karate, I'm fine with them thinking so.  No doubt there is more than plenty in the general public who will side along.


----------



## _Simon_

Tony Dismukes said:


> The people who have already said they're confused about what you are trying to say are a pretty diverse group - practitioners of Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, BJJ, Muay Thai, Kempo ... I think there might be one actual MMA practitioner.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're claiming that I'm the one writing insults? Please point them out. I don't think you'll have much luck finding examples. I make a point to stay polite even when I disagree with someone or think they're being belligerent.
> 
> 
> 
> I make a point to listen, learn, and contribute substantively regardless of who I am responding to. Feel free to point out where and why you think I am failing to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is "behind" me. I am, as an individual, encouraging you to communicate in such a way that you can be understood. I think you might enjoy conversations more this way.
> 
> There are practitioners from a wide variety of martial backgrounds participating on this thread. The majority are not MMAers. Do you honestly believe that most of them are following whatever points you are trying to make in your posts?
> 
> (BTW - "new students"? Some of us that you're jabbing at have 3, 4, or 5+ decades of training. Remind me of what your training background consists of exactly?)


Well said Tony, just wanted to say that, not as a groupie, but just a recognition of respect [emoji14]


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ShotoNoob said:


> Agreed.  But yet we are looking at the under-representing of TMA in MMA, not fine-lining how you want to make some literal counter point to every line I write.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, as a generality there is some truth in the TMA conditioning not being as rigorous across the board.  The other side of that coin,  and which as been posted here by others, is the amount of dedication varies tremendously.  A TMA practitioner can still obtain great benefits from the TMA approach with modest physical conditioning.
> 
> Martial arts in general does better w better conditioning, we should all agree.
> 
> On the resistance training, I'm on board with that as a general principle.  And I spoken on that divide in philosophy in my earlier posts.  I will agree many get that proverbial wake up call once the going gets tough, but this is the lazy and unthinking to a large degree, TMA wise.  A majority of practitioners unfortunately.
> 
> The latter is why I propose Shotokan karate for MMA minded, because it's traditional practice is very physically oriented.
> 
> I get it.  Then those who train under your umbrella are going to have that better level of conditioning to better prepare for the realities when they pop up.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, don't wait on me.  We've seen some experienced karate backgrounds do well in MMA, up to a point.  Won't rehash what MMA has rehashed a million times there.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, upset the apple cart by posting traditional karate w substance.  That's tough.  I learned by looking to substance, and not engaging in what you say which on the record in the replies / avoiding the issue / rhetorical unclever responses to my posts.
> 
> Those invested in a franchise often shoot down any differing view.  Shoe fit?  In terms of passing judgement, the responsible answer is to address with substance, instead of blank admonishments.  Should someone feel their brand or self-made art adaptation is superior to traditional karate, I'm fine with them thinking so.  No doubt there is more than plenty in the general public who will side along.


Will respond to the rest of this in the morning, if i remember, but just wanted to ask what franchise you think i am interested in, and what differing view i am shooting down. I am suggesting, and have suggested continuously on this forum that with appropriate training, tma's can be just as effective as mma, which I'm semi certain is also your belief. But you seem to think everyone here is an advocate for mma, hence my statement of you acting like a dick without knowing the other people's stances.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Depends how you have cross trained.
> 
> You cross train and I cross train so therefore we are basically the same thing. Is that what you are trying to say here?


Nope. Not at all what I said. Note that I said "Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA...." Can, not will.

What I'm getting at is that "TMA" is too broad a spectrum to speak of in one breath. If my cross-training is well-trained Judo and Kyokushin, that's a very different mix from Karakido Karate (a lamentably real thing taught at a dojo in my town) and a sloppy version of Bujinkan's Taijutsu.

Because training matters.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> And training once a week vs every day might be the factor. But it still may not. You would have to do it to find out.


Most of us have enough experience with both to know that it generally does matter. Not every guy who trains daily can take every guy who trains weekly, but generally it's true. And most of us have had at least periods where we trained more and harder (and saw our skills improve dramatically) and other times when we didn't commit as much time or energy (and didn't see the same level of improvement, and maybe even some loss).

Is it "the factor"? No. But it is definitely "a factor".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Tony, here we have [yet] another example of why TMA fails in MMA.  Oh, and it's Tony, "representative of the people."  You mean the MMA minded groupies you hang out with.  The "people," who went from TMA to the MMA business.
> 
> 
> 
> Change "...then you insult the way I am writing;" to "the insults that I wrote;" and we'll be on the same page.  Who's this dribble meant for, impressionable MMA adolescents who are wandering around on the 'net?
> 
> 
> 
> Tony, here's what I'm suggesting.  When you show up at my thread posts, come with your gi pressed, you belt tied correctly and snug, and be ready to listen, learn and make a substantiative contribution.  Put 1 + 1 together, or try to.
> 
> 
> 
> Tony of the "people"again.  Yes Tony, the "people" are behind you.  Add to my requirement to all new students as per the previous directive, bring yourself as an individual.  Stop leaning like a groupie on your MMA cohorts.  Stand tall.


Your condescension knows no bounds, does it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Where is the kempo in MMA?  Nowhere, that's where.


You mean, "nowhere I've ever seen it, so I assume nowhere, that's where".



> It's heartening to see at least one TMA you think to be effective in MMA, yours!


You see, most people post based upon their experience, rather than pages upon pages of something they admit they know nothing about (which you've done repeatedly). So, yes, the TMA he studies is the one he posted about. SHOCKING!



> EDIT: See we have an explanation as to why TMA isn't well represented in MMA.  Kind hint well [your] Kempo (which isn't seen for miles in MMA) is the one that works.


More condescension. Your posts fairly drip with it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Oh, I'm failing Blogging 101.  Trouble alert.


You're failing Communication 101. Whatever point you're trying to make, you're not. 



> Big step there Tony.  How do the arts you adopt apply to MMA?  Brief squib all's that's needed.


Before you go demanding background from others, maybe share yours. That's polite. Or - at the very minimum - ask politely.



> Tony you ARE replying by saying nothing of substance, as usual.  Hey if you still can't tell, you can't tell.


Laughable.



> By elite, you mean champions in the UFC?  Modern you mean what time frame?  One competitor was going to win, one was going to lose.  Grade = "F" for substance.  Stating an obvious generalities cast as martial wisdom.


By "elite" he means the common usage of the word:

"e·lite
/əˈlēt,āˈlēt/
_noun_

1.
a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities."
As for the rest, he's pointing out a flaw in your repeated comments about that and other fights. Substance.


> And since the one was going to win and one was going to lose, why continue since it's just a TMA vs. MMA coin toss. Again Tony, very 1-dimensional rhetoric which merely states your position w/o venturing, posting substance.


Was that supposed to be substantive, or just dismissive. You managed only the latter.



> Better MMA fighter bests losing MMA fighter. A brownie point for working 'elite' in there.
> 
> 
> Says a lot.


More condescension, with no more substance. And toss in another bit of dismissive attitude.

Where's all that character strength TMA is meant to build?


----------



## ShotoNoob

kempodisciple said:


> Will respond to the rest of this in the morning, if i remember, but just wanted to ask what franchise you think i am interested in, and what differing view i am shooting down. I am suggesting, and have suggested continuously on this forum that with appropriate training, tma's can be just as effective as mma, which I'm semi certain is also your belief. But you seem to think everyone here is an advocate for mma, hence my statement of you acting like a dick without knowing the other people's stances.



Thanks for the candor.  I'll wait to see what you have to respond with yourself.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ShotoNoob said:


> Agreed.  But yet we are looking at the under-representing of TMA in MMA, not fine-lining how you want to make some literal counter point to every line I write.


From what I understand, you were the one making a literal counterpoint to every line I wrote. I stated an example of TMA being useful in sports competition, which can be generalized in MMA. You stated kempo is not seen in MMA. I specified I hadn't seen it there, only in kickboxing. But the 'MMA guys' you refer to accept kickboxing as evidence of striking skills, for fairly good reasons.





> Well, as a generality there is some truth in the TMA conditioning not being as rigorous across the board.  The other side of that coin,  and which as been posted here by others, is the amount of dedication varies tremendously.  A TMA practitioner can still obtain great benefits from the TMA approach with modest physical conditioning.
> 
> Martial arts in general does better w better conditioning, we should all agree.


Yup. In agreement here. And in some of the other parts, not going to respond 'we agree' to all of it.




> Well, don't wait on me.  We've seen some experienced karate backgrounds do well in MMA, up to a point.  Won't rehash what MMA has rehashed a million times there.



I kind of do have to wait on you to say what TMA are effective in MMA, based on your definition of TMA. To me, muay thai and bjj are both TMA's, wrestling could be considered one as well, and I believe most MMA people practice one of those 3. I get the feeling that's not what you're considering TMA's though.





> Yeah, upset the apple cart by posting traditional karate w substance.  That's tough.  I learned by looking to substance, and not engaging in what you say which on the record in the replies / avoiding the issue / rhetorical unclever responses to my posts.


 Again, it's not that you do traditional karate, or offer substance. It's that you are assuming people's stances, which, if you took time to listen to them, are pretty close to your own. The attitude you come off with matters in an online discussion, unless you have no desire to have people actually listen/pay attention to what you're saying.



> Those invested in a franchise often shoot down any differing view.  Shoe fit?  In terms of passing judgement, the responsible answer is to address with substance, instead of blank admonishments.  Should someone feel their brand or self-made art adaptation is superior to traditional karate, I'm fine with them thinking so.  No doubt there is more than plenty in the general public who will side along.


Copy/paste of my above reply, just to keep it organized.
What franchise do you think i am interested in, and what differing view am I shooting down? I am suggesting, and have suggested continuously on this forum that with appropriate training, tma's can be just as effective as mma, which I'm semi certain is also your belief. But you seem to think everyone here is an advocate for mma, hence my statement of you acting like a dick without knowing the other people's stances.


----------



## Buka

Buka said:


> Bro, have you earned your first belt in your dojo yet? I'm just curious.



I'm still curious.


----------



## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> Bro, have you earned your first belt in your dojo yet? I'm just curious.





Buka said:


> I'm still curious.


he is working on his green belt under PhotonGuy via internet instruction.  Although I’m not sure PhotonGuy would agree with his claim.

See here, start at post #29:
Just Made Green Belt In Goju Ryu


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Nope. Not at all what I said. Note that I said "Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA...." Can, not will.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that "TMA" is too broad a spectrum to speak of in one breath. If my cross-training is well-trained Judo and Kyokushin, that's a very different mix from Karakido Karate (a lamentably real thing taught at a dojo in my town) and a sloppy version of Bujinkan's Taijutsu.
> 
> Because training matters.



And we see judo and kyokushin representing in MMA. and that is due probably to their solid sport element.

Now if someone did Japanese jujitsu and wado-ryu. They probably would not represent as well. Even though they are technically learning the same thing.

And they seem to take lengths to differentiate themselves. 
Difference between Traditional Karate and Sport Karate

So it isn't just my thing.


----------



## ShotoNoob

_Simon_ said:


> Well said Tony, just wanted to say that, not as a groupie, but just a recognition of respect [emoji14]



Loyalty's a fine thing.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> And we see judo and kyokushin representing in MMA. and that is due probably to their solid sport element.
> 
> Now if someone did Japanese jujitsu and wado-ryu. They probably would not represent as well. Even though they are technically learning the same thing.
> 
> And they seem to take lengths to differentiate themselves.
> Difference between Traditional Karate and Sport Karate
> 
> So it isn't just my thing.



Here's the into to your linked material.
_
Before selecting a karate school for your child, make sure you know and understand which form of karate you’re enrolling him/her into. Generally speaking, there are two different types of karate classes, traditional karate and sport karate.
_
What did you think of the write-up?
_
_


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Your condescension knows no bounds, does it?


 
You're looking into mirror, my friend.  And it shows.


----------



## ShotoNoob

kempodisciple said:


> From what I understand, you were the one making a literal counterpoint to every line I wrote. I stated an example of TMA being useful in sports competition, which can be generalized in MMA. You stated kempo is not seen in MMA. I specified I hadn't seen it there, only in kickboxing. But the 'MMA guys' you refer to accept kickboxing as evidence of striking skills, for fairly good reasons.



Welll, if you stop talking in circles, you'll finally arrive.  At the beginning.  From what I understand you were the one making a literal commentary.

We already agreed on the kick boxing.



kempodisciple said:


> Yup. In agreement here. And in some of the other parts, not going to respond 'we agree' to all of it.



Ok.



kempodisciple said:


> I kind of do have to wait on you to say what TMA are effective in MMA, based on your definition of TMA. To me, muay thai and bjj are both TMA's, wrestling could be considered one as well, and I believe most MMA people practice one of those 3. I get the feeling that's not what you're considering TMA's though.



Gee, I've been posting about traditional karate.  Your stance, Muay Thai & BJJ are TMAs.  Wrestling too? Explain.  Whats' your definition of a TMA, then?



kempodisciple said:


> Again, it's not that you do traditional karate, or offer substance. It's that you are assuming people's stances, which, if you took time to listen to them, are pretty close to your own. The attitude you come off with matters in an online discussion, unless you have no desire to have people actually listen/pay attention to what you're saying.



See reply above.  Yes, attitude does matter.



kempodisciple said:


> Copy/paste of my above reply, just to keep it organized.
> What franchise do you think i am interested in, and what differing view am I shooting down? I am suggesting, and have suggested continuously on this forum that with appropriate training, tma's can be just as effective as mma, which I'm semi certain is also your belief. But you seem to think everyone here is an advocate for mma, hence my statement of you acting like a dick without knowing the other people's stances.



So what is your franchise?  What is "appropriate" training, what is your stance?  To clarify.  Is TMA under-represented because it's training isn't effective when it traditionally taught?

As for the anatomy lesson, the subject of the thread is MMA related.  So your "what I think" is out of context; the posters here are advocating for MMA, by what's effective in that environment.

Any ideas other than biology?


----------



## ShotoNoob

-


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Where is the kempo in MMA?  Nowhere, that's where.



Stephen Thompson. Kenpo black belt undefeated kick boxer and former UFC title challenger, chuck Liddell kenpo black belt former UFC light heavyweight champion


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ShotoNoob said:


> Welll, if you stop talking in circles, you'll finally arrive.  At the beginning.  From what I understand you were the one making a literal commentary.
> 
> We already agreed on the kick boxing.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.
> 
> 
> 
> Gee, I've been posting about traditional karate.  Your stance, Muay Thai & BJJ are TMAs.  Wrestling too? Explain.  Whats' your definition of a TMA, then?
> 
> 
> 
> See reply above.  Yes, attitude does matter.
> 
> 
> 
> So what is your franchise?  What is "appropriate" training, what is your stance?  To clarify.  Is TMA under-represented because it's training isn't effective when it traditionally taught?
> 
> As for the anatomy lesson, the subject of the thread is MMA related.  So your "what I think" is out of context; the posters here are advocating for MMA, by what's effective in that environment.
> 
> Any ideas other than biology?


Clearly you have no desire to have meaningful discussion, or be willing to put down your actual stance on anything, but instead just trying to put everything back on the other posters while insulting them at the same time. Not worth wasting any more of my time, good luck with everything.


----------



## Buka

drop bear said:


> And they seem to take lengths to differentiate themselves.
> Difference between Traditional Karate and Sport Karate



That was pretty fuuny. It could have saved quite a bit of article space by saying "Traditional Karate good, Sport Karate very, very bad."

AssHats.


----------



## Yokozuna514

Buka said:


> That was pretty fuuny. It could have saved quite a bit of article space by saying "Traditional Karate good, Sport Karate very, very bad."
> 
> AssHats.


Interesting to see someone linking a write up on traditional karate vs sport karate from this mma gym.   I know people that work here .  

I can’t speak for everyone that works there but it is not a ‘karate’ environment at all.  They are definitely more Muay Thai oriented for their striking than karate from what I know.  So it’s pretty funny to me that they have any comment on karate at all.   

Although I agree that the write up makes them sound like asshats, they are a decent mma gym and have some very knowledgeable trainers there.  

That being said, this is not be  the place that would have a learned an opinion on karate, sport or traditional.  They simply don’t train or teach either to the extent that would make their opinion authoritative on the subject.  It would be like listening to Ford talk about the difference between Toyota’s vs Nissan’s.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> And we see judo and kyokushin representing in MMA. and that is due probably to their solid sport element.
> 
> Now if someone did Japanese jujitsu and wado-ryu. They probably would not represent as well. Even though they are technically learning the same thing.
> 
> And they seem to take lengths to differentiate themselves.
> Difference between Traditional Karate and Sport Karate
> 
> So it isn't just my thing.


Some do go to some lengths to differentiate themselves. I don't see much need for that. Any style could involve sport - either some style-specific competition, or participating in whatever competition they please (which they might or might not train specifically for). I've not used formal competition at any point in my training, but I don't see it as contrary to the training, either. I wouldn't pick my primary art as a source for competition if winning competition was the goal - it's not built around that - but it has the appropriate elements for striking competition (probably not realistically for boxing, but for most Karate-oriented approaches). And it has a reasonable base for grappling competition, in those schools where they've broadened the ground work from the pretty sloppy sweeps originally included.

Of course, I'd expect a sport-oriented person with equivalent training to do better in competition. So, me against an equivalent Judoka? They ought to win. Me against an equivalent sport-trained Karateka? Again, I'd expect them to have an edge there. 

Anyway, my point was simply that "TMA" includes some things that do work well in MMA. To me, that says the problem isn't whether or not something is "TMA" but how that TMA is practiced and taught. Sport-oriented schools/styles tend to do more pressure testing and resistive training. They tend to innovate more, based on the feedback from training and competition. They are more visible, so people can pick up ideas from what's used successfully elsewhere. BJJ is a great example of all three of those points. There's no reason any TMA can't do all three of those, if they choose to. Do those, and results will improve.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Here's the into to your linked material.
> _
> Before selecting a karate school for your child, make sure you know and understand which form of karate you’re enrolling him/her into. Generally speaking, there are two different types of karate classes, traditional karate and sport karate.
> _
> What did you think of the write-up?


I thought he made his take on that kind of clear.

Personally, I consider it a false distinction.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> You're looking into mirror, my friend.  And it shows.


Don't call me "friend". You've been insulting and condescending to people who have been polite and attempted to be helpful. You've obfuscated - I believe purposefully - requested that which you won't reciprocate to, and talked at length about things you nearly simultaneously admit you know very little about.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> I thought he made his take on that kind of clear.
> 
> Personally, I consider it a false distinction.


You consider what a false distinction?


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Don't call me "friend". You've been insulting and condescending to people who have been polite and attempted to be helpful. You've obfuscated - I believe purposefully - requested that which you won't reciprocate to, and talked at length about things you nearly simultaneously admit you know very little about.


Well we're all so friendly here, I mean I'm rferred to as "Buddy."  And we all want to strive to be friendly & helpful.  So for you I choose "friend."

I can tell you've tried so hard to be helpful.  I'm trying so hard to reciprocate.  Simultaneously too.

Let me know if there is another handle you'd prefer.  Reciprocate.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Well we're all so friendly here, I mean I'm rferred to as "Buddy."  And we all want to strive to be friendly & helpful.  So for you I choose "friend."
> 
> I can tell you've tried so hard to be helpful.  I'm trying so hard to reciprocate.  Simultaneously too.
> 
> Let me know if there is another handle you'd prefer.  Reciprocate.


I'd love to know what your martial art experience is? I mean you call yourself a noob and have a photo of a guy (don't know if it's you) in a white belt. Yet you're on here insulting people and insulting other styles acting like an expert. I could go back and look on your old posts to see if you've said but I have enough headaches without trying to read through your old posts


----------



## Yokozuna514

gpseymour said:


> Some do go to some lengths to differentiate themselves.


When it comes to karate, I think it is important to differentiate orgs that use point style fighting rules vs orgs that use knockdown fighting rules for competition.   Even though both styles can be said to have a 'competitive sport' aspect to their game, training for point style fighting is vastly different than training for knockdown fighting.   A Kyokushin fighter that enters a point fighting tournament may get annoyed because everyone trains to strike fast to score the point but that would pretty much be it.   The biggest danger would come from an errant hit to the face.  A point fighter that enters a knockdown fighting tournament would put themselves in a situation that they could be seriously knocked out so I think this is an important distinction.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> You consider what a false distinction?


Sport Karate vs Traditional Karate.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> I'd love to know what your martial art experience is? I mean you call yourself a noob and have a photo of a guy (don't know if it's you) in a white belt. Yet you're on here insulting people and insulting other styles acting like an expert. I could go back and look on your old posts to see if you've said but I have enough headaches without trying to read through your old posts


He hasn't said, that I can recall, and he has been asked several times, in different ways, by several people who were curious about his point of view.

That leads me to believe - based on past experience on forums with people who evaded that question - that he has little or no actual experience.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Yokazuna514 said:


> When it comes to karate, I think it is important to differentiate orgs that use point style fighting rules vs orgs that use knockdown fighting rules for competition.   Even though both styles can be said to have a 'competitive sport' aspect to their game, training for point style fighting is vastly different than training for knockdown fighting.   A Kyokushin fighter that enters a point fighting tournament may get annoyed because everyone trains to strike fast to score the point but that would pretty much be it.   The biggest danger would come from an errant hit to the face.  A point fighter that enters a knockdown fighting tournament would put themselves in a situation that they could be seriously knocked out so I think this is an important distinction.


It's important to distinguish those points (for those who are seeking one or the other), but I don't think it's useful to try to distinguish between sport and traditional. They overlap.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> He hasn't said, that I can recall, and he has been asked several times, in different ways, by several people who were curious about his point of view.
> 
> That leads me to believe - based on past experience on forums with people who evaded that question - that he has little or no actual experience.


Once again we have confirmation that sufficiently advanced Dunning-Kruger is indistinguishable from trolling and vice-versa.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> I'd love to know what your martial art experience is? I mean you call yourself a noob and have a photo of a guy (don't know if it's you) in a white belt.



You picked up on that.  Very sharp on your part.



Headhunter said:


> IYet you're on here insulting people and insulting other styles *acting like an expert.* I could go back and look on your old posts to see if you've said but I have enough headaches without trying to read through your old posts



I kinda thought your respond quoted above was disrespectful.  Yet you seem to think that's appropriate?

Acting like an expert?  I suppose then you are an expert.  What is your martial art experience?


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Sport Karate vs Traditional Karate.



Well, your view is definitely wrong.  The kind of training emphasis is different.  I will agree it's not a black & white distinction.

Glad about one thing.  You're an MMA guy @ heart - so we do have the MMA-minded enthroned here, as I proposed.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> You picked up on that.  Very sharp on your part.
> 
> 
> 
> I kinda thought your respond quoted above was disrespectful.  Yet you seem to think that's appropriate?
> 
> Acting like an expert?  I suppose then you are an expert.  What is your martial art experience?


Sorry does the truth bother you? Ask anyone I'll doubt they'll disagree with what I've said.

My experience? Okay sure. 26 years of kenpo, 15 years of boxing, 12 years of kickboxing/Muay Thai, 2 years of Bjj, 1 year of Krav Maga, 2 years of ishinryu karate, 6 years of teaching kenpo and about 3 months of teaching of Krav Maga. Okay I've answered so your turn


----------



## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> He hasn't said, that I can recall, and he has been asked several times, in different ways, by several people who were curious about his point of view.
> 
> That leads me to believe - based on past experience on forums with people who evaded that question - that he has little or no actual experience.


Yep he responded by asking what my experience is. I had no issue answering it because I'm not pretending I'm anything I'm not let's see now if he returns the favour and answers it (I very much doubt it)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Well, your view is definitely wrong.  The kind of training emphasis is different.  I will agree it's not a black & white distinction.


Then you don't get it. See, there are folks who use traditional Karate to train for sport. So, which are they?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Sorry does the truth bother you? Ask anyone I'll doubt they'll disagree with what I've said.
> The "truth?"  Ask any who?
> 
> 
> Headhunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> My experience? Okay sure. 26 years of kenpo, 15 years of boxing, 12 years of kickboxing/Muay Thai, 2 years of Bjj, 1 year of Krav Maga, 2 years of ishinryu karate, 6 years of teaching kenpo and about 3 months of teaching of Krav Maga.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay I've answered so your turn
Click to expand...


Over a decade of practicing a traditional karate style derived originally from Shotokan karate.   Have never formally taught any art.

I made a deliberate effort to focus on traditional karate as opposed to going all over the place like you.  Have done some limited cross training though.  Boxing, to me is a waste of time and contrary to developing one's kempo.

How's that?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Over a decade of practicing a traditional karate style derived originally from Shotokan karate.   Have never formally taught any art.
> 
> I made a deliberate effort to focus on traditional karate as opposed to going all over the place like you.  Have done some limited cross training though.  Boxing, to me is a waste of time and contrary to developing one's kempo.
> 
> How's that?


So, you've never trained in Kempo, nor boxing, yet you're certain they can't be complementary.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Over a decade of practicing a traditional karate style derived originally from Shotokan karate.   Have never formally taught any art.
> 
> I made a deliberate effort to focus on traditional karate as opposed to going all over the place like you.  Have done some limited cross training though.  Boxing, to me is a waste of time and contrary to developing one's kempo.
> 
> How's that?


Oh so you do a style so secret you can't even give it a name...sure


See this is exactly what everyone's saying. You're disrespectful and arrogant towards other people. Putting down what other people do and bigging up yourself. So have you ever done boxing or kenpo? If not you have no right to say anything about either style. Fact is Bruce Lee one of the top martial artists ever was a big fan of boxing and used it in his own style because he saw the use for it. But I guess you kmow more than Bruce Lee right


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Then you don't get it. *See, there are folks who use traditional Karate to train for sport.* So, which are they?



No GPS, you don't get it.  Over the Internet, really?

How does what I said exclude a sport practitioner from going to any TMA school to train?  What you left out is how they train.  Your'e big on actual resisting exercises.  TMA schools generally in my area have a sliding scale on that, though the normal is light to no contact in sparring.  Plus we always encounter those individuals who take it farther on their own volition.  It does happen.

You have a constant theme of your improvements which you feel benefit you.  We have this thinking in my own dojo, but as a rule most follow the traditional curriculum as laid out by the org.

EDIT: Try speaking to what I commented, "differences" in training principle.  Not slanting off to who trains where, a favorite tactic of your's to take the conversation to where you want it to go yet pretend to reply.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Oh so you do a style so secret you can't even give it a name..._sure_



"Sure," that's cutsey.  Have you visited your own profile page?  *It's blocked!!!!!!!~!~*




Headhunter said:


> See this is exactly what everyone's saying. You're disrespectful and arrogant towards other people. Putting down what other people do and bigging up yourself.



"everyone."  Everyone who has opinion challenged like you.   Oh ,the headaches you must have.  "Bigging."  Talking to a high school wrestling class again.  The coach in my high school talked just like you.  Won many championships too.  Wrestling ain't the world though.  Left that out.

You're not disrespectful and arrogant.  No, not at all with this jive.


----------



## ShotoNoob

-


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Sure, that's cutsey.  Have you visited your own profile page?  *It's blocked!!!!!!!~!~*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "everyone."  Everyone who has opinion challenged like you.   Oh ,the headaches you must have.  "Bigging."  Talking to a high school wrestling class again.  The coach in my high school talked just like you.  Won many championships too.  Wrestling ain't the world though.  Left that out.
> 
> Your not disrespectful and arrogant.  No, not at all with this jive.


Yes it is? So what I've told you the names of every single I've trained you can't even say one styles name?


I can't say much to the rest of your post because frankly like most of what you post it's hard to understand a word you're saying....you've used 2 words in one post aren't even real words so good job on that


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Yes it is? So what I've told you the names of every single I've trained you can't even say one styles name?



It's the end of the world!  We can always talk using Shotokan as a centerpiece.  That's if that doesn't aggravate those headaches you're having.  Awful.




Headhunter said:


> I can't say much to the rest of your post because frankly like most of what you post it's hard to understand a word you're saying....you've used 2 words in one post aren't even real words so good job on that



Right, could be all those arts you've taken, you never really understood what you were supposed to be learning.  I see it all the time in traditional karate.  And karate isn't alone.

Bottom line, you haven't really anything to say about traditional karate as represented by the most popular and widely practiced karate across the world, and the source of many additional karate styles, and modern kickboxing too.

You did a word test, instead?

So with all your extensive, long-lived experience & teaching, karate tradition is just a headache.

Check out what Ramsey Dewey says about Krav Maga!  It's a funner.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> No GPS, you don't get it.  Over the Internet, really?
> 
> How does what I said exclude a sport practitioner from going to any TMA school to train?  What you left out is how they train.  Your'e big on actual resisting exercises.  TMA schools generally in my area have a sliding scale on that, though the normal is light to no contact in sparring.  Plus we always encounter those individuals who take it farther on their own volition.  It does happen.
> 
> You have a constant theme of your improvements which you feel benefit you.  We have this thinking in my own dojo, but as a rule most follow the traditional curriculum as laid out by the org.
> 
> EDIT: Try speaking to what I commented, "differences" in training principle.  Not slanting off to who trains where, a favorite tactic of your's to take the conversation to where you want it to go yet pretend to reply.


I'm really not sure what any of that has to do with the previous sequence of posts. You're all over the place.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> I'm really not sure what any of that has to do with the previous sequence of posts. You're all over the place.



Yes, you are unsure.  It's a constant you display, like that other poster with all the headaches.

Don't want to miss, "all over the place."  I said: difference in method, you reply: Sports players train in MMA.

The bill you try to pin on me, pins right to yourself.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> It's the end of the world.  We can always talk using Shotokan.  That's if that doesn't aggravate those headaches you're having.  Awful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, could be all those arts you've taken, you never really understood what you were supposed to be learning.  I see in all the time in traditional karate.  And karate isn't alone.
> 
> Bottom line, you haven't really anything to say about traditional karate as represented by the most popular and widely practiced karate across the world, and the source of many additional karate styles, and modern kickboxing too.
> 
> You did a word test, instead?
> 
> So with all your extensive, long-lived experience & teaching, karate tradition is just a headache.
> 
> Check out what Ramsey Dewey says about Krav Maga!


Yet again you dont answer the question you just spout out a bunch of nonsense.

I don't know anything traditional karate I've never claimed to you know why? I don't do traditional karate, I don't care about traditional karate, I'm not interested in traditional karate, I have no opinion of it either way.

Why the hell would I care what some random guy I've never heard of has to say about Krav Maga?

Frankly the way you respond to simple questions tells me all I need to know about you


----------



## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> I'm really not sure what any of that has to do with the previous sequence of posts. You're all over the place.


Please can you look at the last thing this guy posted to me and let me know if you can make any sense of it


----------



## Headhunter

Tell you what I'm done here. I can't even call this a conversation I say one thing then Mr noob starts talking about something totally different. If I wanted to listen to aimless rambling I'll go talk to my 5 year old granddaughter


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Yet again you dont answer the question you just spout out a bunch of nonsense.



Which is it now.  Headaches or nonsense.  How about lazy.  How about unwilling to look at material I posted.



Headhunter said:


> I don't know anything traditional karate I've never claimed to you know why? I don't do traditional karate, I don't care about traditional karate, I'm not interested in traditional karate, I have no opinion of it either way.



Ok.



Headhunter said:


> Why the hell would I care what some random guy I've never heard of has to say about Krav Maga?



Fair enough.  But your'e missing out!



Headhunter said:


> Frankly the way you respond to simple questions tells me all I need to know about you



Frankly Mr. Laundry List of Martial Arts, your answer fits yourself.  You spout labels like an addressing machine.  No, no, and more no's define your contribution.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Tell you what I'm done here. I can't even call this a conversation I say one thing then Mr noob starts talking about something totally different. If I wanted to listen to aimless rambling I'll go talk to my 5 year old granddaughter


Take an aspirin, and call GPS in the morning....


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Which is it now.  Headaches or nonsense.  How about lazy.  How about unwilling to look at material I posted.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  But your'e missing out!
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly Mr. Laundry List of Martial Arts, your answer fits yourself.  You spout labels like an addressing machine.  No, no, and more no's define your contribution.


My god....you actually took that comment about headaches lol that is hilarious.

Better a laundry list of martial arts than not even being able to name one martial art that I train funny you can't even give a name for your style hmm I wonder why. Wonder what you'll change the subject to next to avoid the question


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Take an aspirin, and call GPS in the morning....


I will because I have respect for him. Goodbye


----------



## Headhunter

Headhunter said:


> Tell you what I'm done here. I can't even call this a conversation I say one thing then Mr noob starts talking about something totally different. If I wanted to listen to aimless rambling I'll go talk to my 5 year old granddaughter


Actually I feel bad about that comment now....I have way more interesting conversations with my granddaughter....apologies to my granddaughter


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Yes, you are unsure.  It's a constant you display, like that other poster with all the headaches.
> 
> Don't want to miss, "all over the place."  I said: difference in method, you reply: Sports players train in MMA.
> 
> The bill you try to pin on me, pins right to yourself.


Um, nope. Not anything like anything I've ever said. Not once, in the many thousands of posts I've made on this forum. Never. Uh-uh. Nope.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Please can you look at the last thing this guy posted to me and let me know if you can make any sense of it


Some. Not much. Mostly, he's just evading any reasonable questions by throwing back insults, less-reasonable versions of the same questions, and garbled responses.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> My god....you actually took that comment about headaches lol that is hilarious.



Yes, it's hilarious how you say nothing, then blame the other fellow for saying nothing. "My god" for emphasis, _so special._



Headhunter said:


> Better a laundry list of martial arts than not even being able to name one martial art that I train funny you can't even give a name for your style hmm I wonder why. Wonder what you'll change the subject to next to avoid the question



More funny.  Adding value by saying nothing but the derogatory, then claiming the high road.

There you go again.  I'd be on subject if I could get a reasoned reply.  Wonder is right.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> So, you've never trained in Kempo, nor boxing, yet you're certain they can't be complementary.



So you have an understanding of kempo, what it's about?  And boxing also?


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Um, nope. Not anything like anything I've ever said. Not once, in the many thousands of posts I've made on this forum. Never. Uh-uh. Nope.


Thanks for checking.  I'll follow up.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Some. Not much. Mostly, he's just evading any reasonable questions by throwing back insults, less-reasonable versions of the same questions, and garbled responses.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> So you have an understanding of kempo, what it's about?  And boxing also?


Less of Kempo, some of boxing. You'll note I've not made any statements about how they combine. There's a reason for that.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Less of Kempo, some of boxing. You'll note I've not made any statements about how they combine. There's a reason for that.



How does the boxing vs. kempo strike you, I mean impress you? 

 I have to go back to your website to refresh myself on what martial arts you ascribe to.  As I recall, it appeared to be more sophisticated technically compared to the Japanese karates.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> How does the boxing vs. kempo strike you, I mean impress you?


I've yet to find two arts I don't consider combinable in a useful way. But others disagree with that - I suspect it depends how the individual looks at their training. I'm pretty conceptual, which seems to make it simple to combine mechanics from different styles. I find, for instance, no conflict between my primary art's punch (roughly the same as what's taught in Shotokan Karatedo) and a boxing punch. I blend the two together without effort. I also blend in techniques from other arts without an issue.



> I have to go back to your website to refresh myself on what martial arts you ascribe to.  As I recall, it appeared to be more sophisticated technically compared to the Japanese karates.


The website isn't much help - Nihon Goshin Aikido isn't well-known, so doesn't usually provide much insight. NGA is a relatively new (1940's), moderately traditional art. The base comes from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (arguably, from the Jujutsu, not the Aikijujutsu). The strikes ostensibly come from Shotokan (though I suspect some strong Goju-ryu influence). There's also influence from Judo, and likely some form Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> I've yet to find two arts I don't consider combinable in a useful way. But others disagree with that - *I suspect it depends how the individual looks at their training.*



Yes/ agreed, and that is the source of our divide in training philosophy, as I stated long ago.  My premise is there is fundamental difference in approach which in attempting to combine one either doesn't see, and/or  screws up the mixture, like oil & water.  Or, the emphasis is improperly weighted.


gpseymour said:


> I'm pretty conceptual, which seems to make it simple to combine mechanics from different styles. I find, for instance, no conflict between my primary art's punch (roughly the same as what's taught in Shotokan Karatedo) and a boxing punch. I blend the two together without effort. I also blend in techniques from other arts without an issue.



Concepts can be wrong.  Conclusions can be mistaken.  Don't forget however, from what I've heard from you / your postings, I can see how you can be/ are succeeding.  I believe you can / are getting results.



gpseymour said:


> The website isn't much help - Nihon Goshin Aikido isn't well-known, so doesn't usually provide much insight. NGA is a relatively new (1940's), moderately traditional art. The base comes from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (arguably, from the Jujutsu, not the Aikijujutsu). The strikes ostensibly come from Shotokan (though I suspect some strong Goju-ryu influence). There's also influence from Judo, and likely some form Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido.



Actually, I liked your website.  It distinguishes your conceptual-ism from other schools who just adopt a particular TMA regimen, which is the common case.  I believe your arts provide a higher level of technical sophistication compared to the popular TMAs.  That, however, can be a double-edged sword.

On a closing note, we have a 1st Degree Black-belt at our dojo who cleans up at tournaments.  He has trained boxing.  And I suspect his boxing training is responsible to some large measure.  The boxing supplement, however, does not speak to the low to mediocre talent often present @ TMA tournaments.  Much because of like that thread on the Muay Thai guys going @ it in the ring.  People can't resist the change to beat the other guy, show what they can do.  No way trained properly.

I was talking one day w that 1st degree black-belt and I mentioned my stance was boxing was a lesser art than karate.  He told me how effective his boxing was against his tournament competitors.  Then he added, "Boxing skill tops out; with karate there is no limit."


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> The website isn't much help - Nihon Goshin Aikido isn't well-known, so doesn't usually provide much insight. NGA is a relatively new (1940's), moderately traditional art. The base comes from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (arguably, from the Jujutsu, not the Aikijujutsu). The strikes ostensibly come from Shotokan (though I suspect some strong Goju-ryu influence). There's also influence from Judo, and likely some form Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido.



This sounds pretty involved.  My karate style is much simpler, at a glance.

I took a quick peek.  MMA here in the USA likes to believe it's the progenitor of mixed martial arts.  Or Bruce Lee.  Japanese TMA masters took up this cause way before, as you art proves.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> I was talking one day w that 1st degree black-belt and I mentioned my stance was boxing was a lesser art than karate. He told me how effective his boxing was against his tournament competitors. Then he added, "Boxing skill tops out; with karate there is no limit."


"Lesser" by what measure, though?

And to the other guy's comment, I don't agree. There are limits for humans, and Karate is subject to them, too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> This sounds pretty involved.  My karate style is much simpler, at a glance.
> 
> I took a quick peek.  MMA here in the USA likes to believe it's the progenitor of mixed martial arts.  Or Bruce Lee.  Japanese TMA masters took up this cause way before, as you art proves.


Combining styles is nothing new. Most folks involved in MMA don't have any illusion that it is. Most that I know who are in MMA (either competing or training with competitors, or just training at a gym that fits the model) recognize the base arts as what they train. Most folks who train TMA don't cross-train, but that's mostly because most of them aren't committing a lot of time. I'm an outlier, and I'm still essentially a "hobbyist". It's something I do on the side. So, when many folks talk about what "TMA" is, they refer to the most common type of student - which is a semi-committed hobbyist.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> "Lesser" by what measure, though?



Now that's a question worth exploring.




gpseymour said:


> And to the other guy's comment, I don't agree. *There are limits for humans, and Karate is subject to them, too.*



Well, the other guy, as you called him, is a legit in my book karate black-belt.  And what's more he trains both boxing and karate.  And what's more he's winning @ tournaments.  IMO, all that makes for a decent starting point.

The bolded statement you made of course is true.  Because nothing is absolute.  No one can reach perfection.  No method is unlimited practically speaking.

Where the Black-belt gets it and you don't, is how we view the problem statement.  You find exceptions, where we find liberation.  The Black-Belt and I differ because he cross-trained boxing, he made the judgment that doing so would be of profit to him.  He went on to apply boxing technique, and so on @ formal karate tournaments and he said it helped him win.  He was winning tournaments.  Boxing in my book is a waste of time.

Where the Black-belt and me are the same.  We are looking at ideals.  Ideals based on principles, martial principles.  And our study we came out that the principles (not techniques per se) of traditional karate provide no limit to accomplishment relatively speaking, compared to the principles of the "sweet science."

He felt boxing allowed for faster, more practical progress in fighting skill.  Traditional karate takes longer, more effort over time and so over the same initial time frame of boxing, karate skills would be lower, less.  As time wears on, however, traditional karate crosses and eclipses the training & skill that boxing can provide.  This is because of the inherently different nature of the two training regimens.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Now that's a question worth exploring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the other guy, as you called him, is a legit in my book karate black-belt.  And what's more he trains both boxing and karate.  And what's more he's winning @ tournaments.  IMO, all that makes for a decent starting point.
> 
> The bolded statement you made of course is true.  Because nothing is absolute.  No one can reach perfection.  No method is unlimited practically speaking.
> 
> Where the Black-belt gets it and you don't, is how we view the problem statement.  You find exceptions, where we find liberation.  The Black-Belt and I differ because he cross-trained boxing, he made the judgment that doing so would be of profit to him.  He went on to apply boxing technique, and so on @ formal karate tournaments and he said it helped him win.  He was winning tournaments.  Boxing in my book is a waste of time.
> 
> Where the Black-belt and me are the same.  We are looking at ideals.  Ideals based on principles, martial principles.  And our study we came out that the principles (not techniques per se) of traditional karate provide no limit to accomplishment relatively speaking, compared to the principles of the "sweet science."
> 
> He felt boxing allowed for faster, more practical progress in fighting skill.  Traditional karate takes longer, more effort over time and so over the same initial time frame of boxing, karate skills would be lower, less.  As time wears on, however, traditional karate crosses and eclipses the training & skill that boxing can provide.  This is because of the inherently different nature of the two training regimens.


So, where are the limits in boxing that don't exist in Karate?


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Combining styles is nothing new. Most folks involved in MMA don't have any illusion that it is. Most that I know who are in MMA (either competing or training with competitors, or just training at a gym that fits the model) recognize the base arts as what they train.



Well GPS, I also think you are in a circle of more dedicated, and seriously vested practitioners compared to the commercial MMA competitors I'm acquainted with.  It's not that commercial MMA competitors dont want to do well, or train hard, it's the depth of their thinking on how they approach martial arts.




gpseymour said:


> Most folks who train TMA don't cross-train, but that's mostly because most of them aren't committing a lot of time. I'm an outlier, and I'm still essentially a "hobbyist". It's something I do on the side. So, when many folks talk about what "TMA" is, they refer to the most common type of student - which is a semi-committed hobbyist.



On the time investment, right.  The TMA program is designed for, accommodates the 'usual, practical' schedule of everyday folks. I myself, have trained up to 8 hours a days, say five days a week.  Other times, it's put aside.  TMA is not my life.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> So, where are the limits in boxing that don't exist in Karate?



Well since I'm so incompetent, nothing I say will be of any use.

ONE: Let me preface this with we are getting at this over the internet.  That is a barrier at some point.  I stated that before.

TWO: One has to define martial arts.  TMA has a definition and boxing has a definition.  I believe the TMA definition is comprehensive.  The traditional karate definition is the more comprehensive than boxing, but not the most sophisticated among TMA.  Okinawan karates' definition is more sophisticated than the Japanese or Korean karates as a general rule.

Once you get to the kung fu's, now you are really getting comprehensive.  And among kung fu, there's a whole hierarchy of sophistication.

So in all of that, the Japanese traditional karate offshoot I practice is pretty basic TMA.  What separates and distinguishes traditional karate from Tiger "Dumb" Thai, and boxing, is how body, mind & spirit are developed through the training, particularly one's mental strengths.  I've reflected this in my gibberish posts as some posters have called them.

And that's okay.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> "Lesser" by what measure, though?
> 
> And to the other guy's comment, I don't agree. There are limits for humans, and Karate is subject to them, too.



The black-belt (other guy) didn't go into a lot of specifics.  We kinda had a philosophical meeting of the minds.

Heres' a brief illustration of the limits of boxing.
*Ronda Rousey looking crisp on a heavy bag*
2,609 views







Federico Mateu
Published on May 7, 2014

Ronda Rousey, once lauded as top WMMA star, flamed completely out, now gone from MMA forever.  Why?  In my book this is brainless.

Now you or someone could come back and say with a Floyd Mayweather bag work video.  Where you would be wrong is that I already covered that by stipulating to the successes of our Dojo's 1st Degree Black-belt cleaning up at karate tournaments.  Boxing works and CAN outdo karate.  Happens most of the time, let's say.

The issue though, is what is the potential of traditional karate compared to boxing, with both trained towards their potential.  So now we are back to defining, assessing, ascribing the potential underlying both arts.  And to do so competently, we have to examine principles.  We can't just look to a supposition or working conclusion like your resistance training.  Or mixing / cross triaging techniques from numerous styles.

And so the noob has given you the conceptual game plan.  Follow on on next post.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> "Lesser" by what measure, though?
> 
> And to the other guy's comment, I don't agree. There are limits for humans, and Karate is subject to them, too.



Now, I can take issue with this guy.  I can say I'm more sophisticated based on what I see here.  He's doing, however, analysis.  He's thinking about the whole picture (not suggesting you aren't).
*Revealing Fake Martial Arts... Is board breaking relevant to REAL fighting?*
130,714 views







Jermaine Andre
Published on Jun 4, 2016

He's talking about confidence (I don't think of board breaking that way, I'm sure many do gain confidence from board breaking.).  Then, however, he goes on with the mechanics of how to successfully break the board,  He's on his way.  He's pointing people into the right direction.

He says it's not about being strong (he has huge arms), its' about how you apply that strength.  There is a process.  At one point he is deliberately hitting the board and not breaking it.  Then he hits the board and deliberately breaks it.  Then he concludes that this is part of the training.  And that there are other parts.  And they all have to work together.

The problem in answering how traditional martial arts excels with this video is that the protagonist is so strong, most likely he could break a board without any training or good technique.  So lets' look @ the weaker sex to demonstrate.

*Euros 2016: Female Power Breaking*
11,243 views







Taekwon-Do Euros
Published on Aug 3, 2016

SUBSCRIBE 401
Female Power breaking decisive moments in European Championships 2016.

Women as a general rule do not equate with the physical strength of men.  Their muscle mass is less, their muscle density is less, their bones are lighter and less dense.  As a generality, not a sports medicine study.

These Female TKD Black-Belts are at a European Board Breaking Championship.  Black-belts at a Continental championship.  Not Sally from the dojang.  See some of the dismal failures.  Oh, TMA doesn't work, TMA critics complain.  Boxers hitting the heavy bag develop power.  True, that works, can work very well.  Here's a comprehensive way to look at board breaking.

Scenario 1:  You have weak body mechanics; the board won't break.  Some of our Female TKD Black-belts.

Scenario 2: You have good body mechanics; the board can or will break.  Our "Mr. ARMS" in my previous post, for simple sake.

Scenario 3: You have good body mechanics powered by strong mental discipline; the board will always break.

And there is the spirit on top of that.

Boxing I look at as training good body mechanics, primarily.  So a well conditioned boxer can probably punch break the standard boards here.  Traditional karate, however, starts by training body mechanics, then progresses to mental strength over the body in a highly disciplined way.  

This isn't black and white, of course.  You can have mentally disciplined boxers.  But not like karate.  The way karate training exercises the body & mind is fundamentally different.  And thats's if you understand that and don't screw it up.

When we talk about  training the mind, that's an intangible.  When we are talking about the mind exercising such complete control over and with the body, that's intangible principle.  And so difficult to empirically see, to evaluate, to practice knowingly.

The reason TMA fails in MMA, or is under-represented in MMA is because TMA as most people train is physically centered.  With that mindset, boxing is better.  Boxing is faster to learn and is more practical to use.  Same with Muay Thai.  And that's not to say attaining high level boxing skill is doing physical drills, the physical program.

Further investigation, one has to go to the dojo, learn from instructors, learn the manual, study the curriculum.  Research online, etc.  There's a process by which TMA trains.  Why it does what it does.  And its' way more sophisticated than Tiger Muay Thai.

For Review:  What qualities relative to the other Female TKD Black-belt competitors, does the winning champion exude or represent?  She is the example to learn from.  How much is good body mechanics, how much mental strength is the driving force behind that whole body strength, we can't know for sure from a video over the 'net.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> So, where are the limits in boxing that don't exist in Karate?


*JKA KIHON TECHNIQUES*
4,074 views







Ulysse Karasira Sibo
Published on Apr 14, 2018

So what do you see when you watch this video of traditional karate training in its pure form?

Here's what I see.
*Second Degree Board Breaking: ITF TKD*
10,479 views







tkdfitness
Published on Dec 12, 2015

How much is good body mechanics, how much is mental strength, how much is the mental strength driving the body mechanics;? that's for the individual practitioner to answer of traditional karate to answer for themselves.  She's no physical powerhouse though, can't ascribe her constant success at differing & challenging set ups for that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Well since I'm so incompetent, nothing I say will be of any use.
> 
> ONE: Let me preface this with we are getting at this over the internet.  That is a barrier at some point.  I stated that before.
> 
> TWO: One has to define martial arts.  TMA has a definition and boxing has a definition.  I believe the TMA definition is comprehensive.  The traditional karate definition is the more comprehensive than boxing, but not the most sophisticated among TMA.  Okinawan karates' definition is more sophisticated than the Japanese or Korean karates as a general rule.
> 
> Once you get to the kung fu's, now you are really getting comprehensive.  And among kung fu, there's a whole hierarchy of sophistication.
> 
> So in all of that, the Japanese traditional karate offshoot I practice is pretty basic TMA.  What separates and distinguishes traditional karate from Tiger "Dumb" Thai, and boxing, is how body, mind & spirit are developed through the training, particularly one's mental strengths.  I've reflected this in my gibberish posts as some posters have called them.
> 
> And that's okay.


So, it seems to come down to a "mind, body, spirit" development. But what does that really mean? What does traditional training offer that training in boxing inherently doesn't?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> The black-belt (other guy) didn't go into a lot of specifics.  We kinda had a philosophical meeting of the minds.
> 
> Heres' a brief illustration of the limits of boxing.
> *Ronda Rousey looking crisp on a heavy bag*
> 2,609 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Federico Mateu
> Published on May 7, 2014
> 
> Ronda Rousey, once lauded as top WMMA star, flamed completely out, now gone from MMA forever.  Why?  In my book this is brainless.
> 
> Now you or someone could come back and say with a Floyd Mayweather bag work video.  Where you would be wrong is that I already covered that by stipulating to the successes of our Dojo's 1st Degree Black-belt cleaning up at karate tournaments.  Boxing works and CAN outdo karate.  Happens most of the time, let's say.
> 
> The issue though, is what is the potential of traditional karate compared to boxing, with both trained towards their potential.  So now we are back to defining, assessing, ascribing the potential underlying both arts.  And to do so competently, we have to examine principles.  We can't just look to a supposition or working conclusion like your resistance training.  Or mixing / cross triaging techniques from numerous styles.
> 
> And so the noob has given you the conceptual game plan.  Follow on on next post.


How one person trains really doesn't address the question. I've seen people train badly - and well - in every MA I've ever witnessed. Often, I saw both happening in the same room.

The same goes for an individual "cleaning up" at a tournament. There's nothing odd about a Karateka winning (or losing) a Karate tournament, any more than there's anything surprising about a boxer winning (or losing) a boxing match.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Now, I can take issue with this guy.  I can say I'm more sophisticated based on what I see here.  He's doing, however, analysis.  He's thinking about the whole picture (not suggesting you aren't).
> *Revealing Fake Martial Arts... Is board breaking relevant to REAL fighting?*
> 130,714 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jermaine Andre
> Published on Jun 4, 2016
> 
> He's talking about confidence (I don't think of board breaking that way, I'm sure many do gain confidence from board breaking.).  Then, however, he goes on with the mechanics of how to successfully break the board,  He's on his way.  He's pointing people into the right direction.
> 
> He says it's not about being strong (he has huge arms), its' about how you apply that strength.  There is a process.  At one point he is deliberately hitting the board and not breaking it.  Then he hits the board and deliberately breaks it.  Then he concludes that this is part of the training.  And that there are other parts.  And they all have to work together.
> 
> The problem in answering how traditional martial arts excels with this video is that the protagonist is so strong, most likely he could break a board without any training or good technique.  So lets' look @ the weaker sex to demonstrate.
> 
> *Euros 2016: Female Power Breaking*
> 11,243 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taekwon-Do Euros
> Published on Aug 3, 2016
> 
> SUBSCRIBE 401
> Female Power breaking decisive moments in European Championships 2016.
> 
> Women as a general rule do not equate with the physical strength of men.  Their muscle mass is less, their muscle density is less, their bones are lighter and less dense.  As a generality, not a sports medicine study.
> 
> These Female TKD Black-Belts are at a European Board Breaking Championship.  Black-belts at a Continental championship.  Not Sally from the dojang.  See some of the dismal failures.  Oh, TMA doesn't work, TMA critics complain.  Boxers hitting the heavy bag develop power.  True, that works, can work very well.  Here's a comprehensive way to look at board breaking.
> 
> Scenario 1:  You have weak body mechanics; the board won't break.  Some of our Female TKD Black-belts.
> 
> Scenario 2: You have good body mechanics; the board can or will break.  Our "Mr. ARMS" in my previous post, for simple sake.
> 
> Scenario 3: You have good body mechanics powered by strong mental discipline; the board will always break.
> 
> And there is the spirit on top of that.
> 
> Boxing I look at as training good body mechanics, primarily.  So a well conditioned boxer can probably punch break the standard boards here.  Traditional karate, however, starts by training body mechanics, then progresses to mental strength over the body in a highly disciplined way.
> 
> This isn't black and white, of course.  You can have mentally disciplined boxers.  But not like karate.  The way karate training exercises the body & mind is fundamentally different.  And thats's if you understand that and don't screw it up.
> 
> When we talk about  training the mind, that's an intangible.  When we are talking about the mind exercising such complete control over and with the body, that's intangible principle.  And so difficult to empirically see, to evaluate, to practice knowingly.
> 
> The reason TMA fails in MMA, or is under-represented in MMA is because TMA as most people train is physically centered.  With that mindset, boxing is better.  Boxing is faster to learn and is more practical to use.  Same with Muay Thai.  And that's not to say attaining high level boxing skill is doing physical drills, the physical program.
> 
> Further investigation, one has to go to the dojo, learn from instructors, learn the manual, study the curriculum.  Research online, etc.  There's a process by which TMA trains.  Why it does what it does.  And its' way more sophisticated than Tiger Muay Thai.
> 
> For Review:  What qualities relative to the other Female TKD Black-belt competitors, does the winning champion exude or represent?  She is the example to learn from.  How much is good body mechanics, how much mental strength is the driving force behind that whole body strength, we can't know for sure from a video over the 'net.


A few thoughts on this.

First, it seems you're implying that Karate's board breaking is a demonstration of a better focus on how to generate power than boxing. I see no evidence either in favor of or against this. Board breaking isn't something boxing trains to, so we have no solid comparison.

You keep referring to the mental development in traditional Karate. Are you certain a similar development doesn't occur in boxing, under the right circumstances (remembering that you've often said TMA is often taught incorrectly, so it lacks this, too)? This is where I take issue with your assertions - you clearly state you've no experience in boxing, yet keep trying to demonstrate where its deficiency lies in this area. But can you really know that? The Karate training I had (very brief, both times) had none of that mental development you speak of, but I don't assume it can't exist in Karate, because my sample size (my two times training in the art) is far too small to judge from.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> *JKA KIHON TECHNIQUES*
> 4,074 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ulysse Karasira Sibo
> Published on Apr 14, 2018
> 
> So what do you see when you watch this video of traditional karate training in its pure form?
> 
> Here's what I see.
> *Second Degree Board Breaking: ITF TKD*
> 10,479 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tkdfitness
> Published on Dec 12, 2015
> 
> How much is good body mechanics, how much is mental strength, how much is the mental strength driving the body mechanics;? that's for the individual practitioner to answer of traditional karate to answer for themselves.  She's no physical powerhouse though, can't ascribe her constant success at differing & challenging set ups for that.


Okay. So nothing in boxing can confer this same type of development?


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> First, it seems you're implying that Karate's board breaking is a demonstration of a better focus on how to generate power than boxing.




A lot of karateka don't break boards though, I've never done it and I know many others who don't either but it's probably a waste of time pointing that out to shootonoob isn't it. 

I can't argue with him as I actually have no idea what he's talking about, it's like arguing with my cat, she thinks she's always right and will just make weird noises to prove it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> A lot of karateka don't break boards though, I've never done it and I know many others who don't either but it's probably a waste of time pointing that out to shootonoob isn't it.
> 
> I can't argue with him as I actually have no idea what he's talking about, it's like arguing with my cat, she thinks she's always right and will just make weird noises to prove it.


Cats always win, Tez. Even when they're wrong, they're right, because cat.


----------



## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> So, it seems to come down to a "mind, body, spirit" development. But what does that really mean? What does traditional training offer that training in boxing inherently doesn't?


Don't know why you're still trying with this guy


----------



## Yokozuna514

We use board breaking in Kyokushin for a number of reasons:

1)  To check technique - The saying goes, 'boards do not lie'.  If your technique is deficient (eg:  Hand not closed tightly, wrist on an angle, not punching through the target...etc), the board will not break without a lot of pain.
2)  A mental test - Breaking a board can be a difficult mental test for some.  They need to overcome the fear of pain and trust in their technique to have a successful break.
3)  Conditioning - To break boards you need to condition your hands and feet or whatever part of your body you use to break things.   Training should include elements to condition your body for the rigours of breaking (tamashiwari).

Board breaking is a tool to augment and test your training.  However, as Bruce Lee said, "Boards don't hit back" so just because you can break things doesn't mean you're the cat's meow.  Your fighting ability will not have been improved by it if you cannot hit your opponent so karateka should always keep this in perspective.   If you are successful at breaking things and you train to fight effectively, I have no doubt that your opponents will feel each successful strike.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> So, it seems to come down to a "mind, body, spirit" development. But what does that really mean? What does traditional training offer that training in boxing inherently doesn't?



Hi GPS. Go back over my posts and cross reference against a Shotokan karate manual, a Shotokan website spelling out the curriculm.  See what you come up with.

Get back to me with your plan.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> How one person trains really doesn't address the question. I've seen people train badly - and well - in every MA I've ever witnessed. Often, I saw both happening in the same room.



Oh GPS, there you go finding fault again.  Can the video portray an issue?  Do your own examination.  I'd hate to be one of your students, the student is expected to bring you on the answers.

We have good karate practicer's and bad karate practicer's in my & every dojo too.  So?



gpseymour said:


> The same goes for an individual "cleaning up" at a tournament. There's nothing odd about a Karateka winning (or losing) a Karate tournament, any more than there's anything surprising about a boxer winning (or losing) a boxing match.



Oh GSP, there you go finding fault again.  A second time.    You're are making bland generalizations, without discussion points, which then redirects the center of attention to you and your viewpoint.  Is there aspects of TMA you are in the dark about?  Is that why you are always tinkering with them?

I suspect that is the / one source of your troubles.  Hooboy.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> A few thoughts on this.



Ok.  Fire away.



gpseymour said:


> First, it seems you're implying that Karate's board breaking is a demonstration of a better focus on how to generate power than boxing.



On the board breaking, well yes & no, and you are warm but not hot.



gpseymour said:


> I see no evidence either in favor of or against this. Board breaking isn't something boxing trains to, so we have no solid comparison.



How 'bought boxers can hit very hard.  I think we are ok there.  But what kind of power are you talking about?  And there you go raising objections again, again, & again.



gpseymour said:


> You keep referring to the mental development in traditional Karate. Are you certain a similar development doesn't occur in boxing, under the right circumstances (remembering that you've often said TMA is often taught incorrectly, so it lacks this, too)?



Mental development is where karate is at, traditionally speaking.  That's my base.

And I did specify (should you study carefully my posts on boxing vs. karate) that boxing ramps up with mental development too.  Boxing can train mental development.  Not like karate tradition.

Then you bring in the crappy TMA training.  That's correct.  Training karate the way boxing is habitually trained is a mistake.   It blows up the longer term development of karate power.  It makes karate dumb.



gpseymour said:


> This is where I take issue with your assertions - you clearly state you've no experience in boxing, yet keep trying to demonstrate where its deficiency lies in this area.





gpseymour said:


> But can you really know that? The Karate training I had (very brief, *both times) had none of that mental development you speak of*, but I don't assume it can't exist in Karate, because my sample size (my two times training in the art) is far too small to judge from.



And there you go yet again finding an objection right to start.

Because I've studied boxing academically, observed boxing and fought boxers, alway winning too!  The first degree black belt at my dojo who trains boxing, uses boxing to win tournaments is fine with my perspective, and agrees karate traditional training eclipses boxing over time.

The point is you don't recognize the mental dimension.  And that is the common affliction with TMA and it's training, hence it's under-performance and under-representation in MMA.  Your are in the same karate boat as most TMA practitioners.

Let me close by reiterating that your approach as I understand it, the realistic pressure drills -works.  The adaptations you are seeking may well prove out as more practical and effective than kihon karate technical form in many circumstances.  All good.

I'm speaking developmentally.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Hi GPS.





ShotoNoob said:


> Oh GSP,




Are you being discourteous here?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Are you being discourteous here?


Are you being funny here?


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Okay. So nothing in boxing can confer this same type of development?


  GPS, you keep coming back with challenge answers with no discussion / review of your own.  IOW, you're not saying anything.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Cats always win, Tez. Even when they're wrong, they're right, because cat.



Cats?  Wow. No typo this time?


----------



## ShotoNoob

> TEZ: A lot of karateka don't break boards though, I've never done it and I know many others who don't either but it's probably a waste of time pointing that out to shootonoob isn't it.



Cats are right 'cause they're cats.  And rolleyes?  Playing cat up?  Get it, cat up?



> I can't argue with him as I actually have no idea what he's talking about, it's like arguing with my cat, she thinks she's always right and will just make weird noises to prove it.



Oh, TEZ the cat lover.  How sophisticated we cat lovers are.  That's all I could find, close enough.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Okay. So nothing in boxing can confer this same type of development?



Here you go GPS.  Compare this karate kumite vid with a boxing fight vid of your choice.  Review, explain and conclude with summary.
*SA JKA 2017 Tournament Highlights




*12,710 views




Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
Published on Jun 16, 2017



> GPS Seymour said: So it seems to come down to a "mind, body, spirit" development. But what does that really mean? What does traditional training offer that training in boxing inherently doesn't?



Two Guidelines:

[1] Basis is your quoted text.  Good & Bad.  Hint: I see both.
[2] No "Cats."  Lleave out the juvenile.  It signals insecurity(ies).

Have @ it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> A lot of karateka don't break boards though, I've never done it and I know many others who don't either but it's probably a waste of time pointing that out to shootonoob isn't it.
> 
> I can't argue with him as I actually have no idea what he's talking about, it's like arguing with my cat, she thinks she's always right and will just make weird noises to prove it.


To me, it reminds me of that quote about playing chess with a pigeon...no matter what move you make, it knocks over all the pieces, takes a crap on the board, then flies on your head claiming victory.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Don't know why you're still trying with this guy


How else am I gonna keep my post count up??


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Hi GPS. Go back over my posts and cross reference against a Shotokan karate manual, a Shotokan website spelling out the curriculm.  See what you come up with.
> 
> Get back to me with your plan.


Yeah, that doesn't answer my question, at all. You made an assertion, and I'm asking for detail. Telling me to go do a bunch of research for you is lazy discussion.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Oh GPS, there you go finding fault again.  Can the video portray an issue?  Do your own examination.  I'd hate to be one of your students, the student is expected to bring you on the answers.


Except you're not my student, so I'm not here to teach you. I'm debating a point you seem to be trying to make. 



> We have good karate practicer's and bad karate practicer's in my & every dojo too.  So?


So, pointing to one person's action doesn't say much of anything about any given art, style, or system.




> Oh GSP, there you go finding fault again.  A second time.    You're are making bland generalizations, without discussion points, which then redirects the center of attention to you and your viewpoint.  Is there aspects of TMA you are in the dark about?  Is that why you are always tinkering with them?


Finding flaws. If you don't want anyone to find flaws in your thought process, you have to keep them secret. We all have flaws - @Steve and @drop bear will be happy to share what they think some of mine are! 

So, rather than being defensive and derisive, either defend the statement by clarifying and expanding, or reconsider your logic.

As for "tinkering" I know you think that's an insult. And I think it's because you don't understand how the principles and mechanics work.



> I suspect that is the / one source of your troubles.  Hooboy.


I know you do. And I suspect your inability to understand that value - and the principles involved - is the primary source of your inability to communicate what you're trying to say in this thread.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Are you being funny here?



No, you keep changing the initials you use to address him, though addressing him just by initials is somewhat rude anyway.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Ok.  Fire away.
> On the board breaking, well yes & no, and you are warm but not hot.


A singularly unhelpful sentence.



> How 'bought boxers can hit very hard.  I think we are ok there.  But what kind of power are you talking about?  And there you go raising objections again, again, & again.


Nope. No objections asserted in that bit. I pointed out my personal view, and a reason behind it.



> Mental development is where karate is at, traditionally speaking.  That's my base.


You keep saying this, but haven't defined it, despite more than one request for clarification.



> And I did specify (should you study carefully my posts on boxing vs. karate) that boxing ramps up with mental development too.  Boxing can train mental development.  Not like karate tradition.


So, it can, but it can't? That's still not clarifying what you're saying the "mental development" component is.



> Then you bring in the crappy TMA training.


Technically, you brought it in - I referenced you doing so. But that distinction is as unhelpful as you bothering to comment on it. 



> That's correct.  Training karate the way boxing is habitually trained is a mistake.   It blows up the longer term development of karate power.  It makes karate dumb.


So, to sum up so far, boxing sometimes has mental development, and Karate sometimes doesn't. Remind me again what the distinction is??



> And there you go yet again finding an objection right to start.


Not really the start, since it's well into a thread. If you didn't make the same assertions - after a flaw is pointed out - I'd have fewer opportunities to point them out to you. The fix is available for you.



> Because I've studied boxing academically, observed boxing and fought boxers, alway winning too!  The first degree black belt at my dojo who trains boxing, uses boxing to win tournaments is fine with my perspective, and agrees karate traditional training eclipses boxing over time.


Back to my question many hours ago: eclipses it _*HOW*_? See, you keep making a vague assertion. I ask for clarification, and you point to things like someone beating on a heavy bag without looking very thoughtful. I'm not sure you know what you mean.



> The point is you don't recognize the mental dimension.  And that is the common affliction with TMA and it's training, hence it's under-performance and under-representation in MMA.  Your are in the same karate boat as most TMA practitioners.


Actually, the point is that you aren't able to clarify what you mean. See, there are things I think TMA - as I've experienced it - confers more often than other activities (I can't speak to boxing, because I've not spent enough time in a boxing gym with folks of the right age to get that information). But I still don't know if those are the same things you're talking about, because you can't seem to explain - to me or anyone else who has asked for it - what you mean.



> Let me close by reiterating that your approach as I understand it, the realistic pressure drills -works.  The adaptations you are seeking may well prove out as more practical and effective than kihon karate technical form in many circumstances.  All good.


Nope. My assertion is that pressure drills are necessary at some level. I don't compare them to kata and other traditional drills - they aren't alternatives, but tools which can be used separately or together.



> I'm speaking developmentally.


I've no idea what you mean by that. But that's so common with your attempts at communication on here by now, I'm sure you're not surprised. Given your lack of real attempts to clarify your points (you know, using a few words to explain a single concept at a time, for instance), I'm not sure you really care whether you communicate - you seem to just like pontificating. (And that, coming from me, is saying something!!)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Are you being discourteous here?


I suspect he is. He started using my initials quite some time ago. I think he hopes it will bother me. It's a bit like the way Fried Rice deliberately calls Karate and such "chopsocky".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> GPS, you keep coming back with challenge answers with no discussion / review of your own.  IOW, you're not saying anything.


What you call a "challenge answer" most would call a "question". They're meant to try to get answers - things you seem unfamiliar with.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Here you go GPS.  Compare this karate kumite vid with a boxing fight vid of your choice.  Review, explain and conclude with summary.
> *SA JKA 2017 Tournament Highlights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *12,710 views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
> Published on Jun 16, 2017
> 
> 
> 
> Two Guidelines:
> 
> [1] Basis is your quoted text.  Good & Bad.  Hint: I see both.
> [2] No "Cats."  Lleave out the juvenile.  It signals insecurity(ies).
> 
> Have @ it.


Yeah, once again, I asked a straightforward question about what YOU mean, and instead you provide a video and ask me to figure out what I mean.

I already know what I mean. I'm not sure anyone - you included - knows what you mean.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, that doesn't answer my question, at all. You made an assertion, and I'm asking for detail. Telling me to go do a bunch of research for you is lazy discussion.


Lazy, that is you.  Again, no definitive answer.  Yeah.  Bunch a work, yeah.


----------



## Buka

_"Because I've studied boxing academically, observed boxing and fought boxers, alway winning too!"





 



_


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> What you call a "challenge answer" most would call a "question". They're meant to try to get answers - *things you seem unfamiliar with.*


With GPS judge in session as per usual.  "Most"  Most who?  "There." There what? Pronouncements without flesh of any sort.  Answering is something you are very insecure about posting.

Bolded, now it's "things;" un huh.  Here's one of your gems.


> GPS: Agreed. This is back to that false distinction. Some martial artists are not fighters. Some fighters are not martial artists. But there's a lot of overlap in those populations.



GPS = Master of False Distinction.  He's never guilty 'cause he never goes on record.  Some are, some aren't.  What is this, Class Day 1 intro?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> _"Because I've studied boxing academically, observed boxing and fought boxers, alway winning too!"
> 
> 
> View attachment 21846
> 
> 
> _


Guess I can cancel that trip to Hawaii.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> Lazy, that is you.  Again, no definitive answer.  Yeah.  Bunch a work, yeah.


So, you can't state your own position, and need someone to work it out for you, and THEY are the lazy person in the discussion? Nice try.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ShotoNoob said:


> With GPS judge in session as per usual.  "Most"  Most who?


No, humans, not the Who down in Whoville.


> "There." There what? Pronouncements without flesh of any sort.  Answering is something you are very insecure about posting.


You put "There" in quotes, but I didn't use that word, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. As usual, though, you're dodging any attempt to get clarification.

So, at this point, I'll just hold off posting more to see if you can gather your wits and actually explain your point, rather than trying to play footsie. It's been fun thus far, but I have some stuff to do, so won't have time for this kind of rubbish until sometime over the weekend. If you want to get back to the actual discussion, let me know.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Except you're not my student, so I'm not here to teach you. I'm debating a point you seem to be trying to make.



What you call a debate, I call avoidance.  Except you're not seeming to avoid, you are a void.




gpseymour said:


> So, pointing to one person's action doesn't say much of anything about any given art, style, or system.



Another Ah, ha lead in.  Right, you aren't saying anything.  We can add about anything.



gpseymour said:


> Finding flaws. If you don't want anyone to find flaws in your thought process, you have to keep them secret. We all have flaws - @Steve and @drop bear will be happy to share what they think some of mine are!



Now, we don't need any help on that score.  I'm afraid to ask. And thanks for pointing out people have flaws.  Epiphany master too.



gpseymour said:


> So, rather than being defensive and derisive, either defend the statement by clarifying and expanding, or reconsider your logic.



Wait, you just said in your 1st line I'm not your student.  Here, you are telling me how to think.  More directives.  And NO ANSWERS.  GPS is doing so well on that "hidden" theme in Quote line 3.  Secrets you have.



gpseymour said:


> As for "tinkering" I know you think that's an insult. And I think it's because you don't understand how the principles and mechanics work.



Ah, now your telling me my term is an insult.  I thought is was instructively descriptive.  You being a Master tinker'r, I probably did step on you tinkering toes.

And there you go again.  No review of my posts.  Yet Master Tinker'r merely has to "think;"  the answer pops into his head.  I have surely underestimated you.




gpseymour said:


> _*I know you do.*_ And I suspect your inability to understand that value - and the principles involved - is the primary source of your inability to communicate what you're trying to say in this thread.



The Master is all knowing.  Yes, a profile is emerging.  "I suspect," oh the Judge is back out of chambers.  And the same shallow, baseless conclusions, _repeated over again_ - the broken record approach.  And "primary sources," another GPS judgment falls from the heaven.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> _"Because I've studied boxing academically, observed boxing and fought boxers, alway winning too!"
> 
> 
> View attachment 21846
> 
> 
> _


You come up with the most appropriate images, sometimes, brother.


----------



## Buka

ShotoNoob said:


> Guess I can cancel that trip to Hawaii.



Nah, no worries. If you ever make it out this way let me know. At least to Maui, I can't promise I'll island hop. My buddy has a dojo in the mountains, traditional Karate, but he lets us do whatever we want. Nice folks. Very comfortable place.

I might even make you eggplant parm. I make a good eggplant parm.


----------



## Headhunter

Can someone please sum up what on earth noob is on about I've tried to follow it but it makes absolutely 0 sense to me so am wondering if anyone can translate his rambling nonsense into something that makes sense


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Can someone please sum up what on earth noob is on about I've tried to follow it but it makes absolutely 0 sense to me so am wondering if anyone can translate his rambling nonsense into something that makes sense


No. I've been trying to figure out his point for about two pages, and haven't gotten him to provide anything remotely clarifying. It seems pretty clear he's posted something thinking it would sound deep, without ever really knowing what it means.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Buka said:


> Nah, no worries. If you ever make it out this way let me know. At least to Maui, I can't promise I'll island hop. My buddy has a dojo in the mountains, traditional Karate, but he lets us do whatever we want. Nice folks. Very comfortable place.
> 
> I might even make you eggplant parm. I make a good eggplant parm.


----------



## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> No. I've been trying to figure out his point for about two pages, and haven't gotten him to provide anything remotely clarifying. It seems pretty clear he's posted something thinking it would sound deep, without ever really knowing what it means.


Good glad it's not just me.....we all must be totally stupid and he's this sage like genius who's so knowledgable no one can understand his knowledge....that must be it right?


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> No, humans, not the Who down in Whoville.



Shocking.



gpseymour said:


> You put "There" in quotes, but I didn't use that word, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. As usual, though, you're dodging any attempt to get clarification.



Yep, as usual you pick a word to fontanel? over, then claim I haven't posted.  Then later say the posts are too much work to read.  Add Master Vacillator to you title(s).  Roger Dodger.



gpseymour said:


> So, at this point, I'll just hold off posting more to see if you can gather your wits and actually explain your point, rather than trying to play footsie. It's been fun thus far, but I have some stuff to do, so won't have time for this kind of rubbish until sometime over the weekend. If you want to get back to the actual discussion, let me know.



What posting.  One liner jibes?  There's Judge GPS, again, giving direction to "gather wits," all the while posting witless wordage.

And playing "footsie."  That's quite an admission.  What seems to _substitute for an answer_, putting it into your vernacular.  The Modern Warrior Coach makes a statement.  "Footsie."

Okay, get busy on that "stuff."  As opposed to being busy on stuffing this discussion with "stuff."

Yeah, let me know when you can respond to a descriptive post.  Answer = never.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Good glad it's not just me.....we all must be totally stupid and he's this sage like genius who's so knowledgable no one can understand his knowledge....that must be it right?


Well, I don't know if you are stupid, but the way you post makes me wonder.  Thats' a GPS knockoff reply, BTW.

Like a genius whos' so knowledgable no one can understand, and that must be it?  That's it? That's the response.  All I can utter then is - Good summary


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> No, you keep changing the initials you use to address him, though addressing him just by initials is somewhat rude anyway.


OMGawd, I'm terrible for using what,? "initials."  And you're so reasonable a person because you qualified with "somewhat."


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Good glad it's not just me.....we all must be totally stupid and he's this sage like genius who's so knowledgable no one can understand his knowledge....that must be it right?


Gotta be.


----------



## ShotoNoob

gpseymour said:


> Gotta be.


The Judge has ruled.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Well, I don't know if you are stupid, but the way you post makes me wonder.  Thats' a GPS knockoff reply, BTW.
> 
> Like a genius whos' so knowledgable no one can understand, and that must be it?  That's it? That's the response.  All I can utter then is - Good summary


My point proven


----------



## Buka

gpseymour said:


> I suspect he is. He started using my initials quite some time ago. I think he hopes it will bother me. It's a bit like the way Fried Rice deliberately calls Karate and such "chopsocky".



I've been calling what I do "chopsocky" for a long, long time. Can't remember when I first heard the term, the seventies maybe. But I use it in a light hearted, endearing way. Even use to use that phrase in the dojo as I was walking up front to bow the class in. _"You boys and gals up for some hard core chopsockey tonight?"_

It was always met with some loud HOO RAHs.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I've been calling what I do "chopsocky" for a long, long time. Can't remember when I first heard the term, the seventies maybe. But I use it in a light hearted, endearing way. Even use to use that phrase in the dojo as I was walking up front to bow the class in. _"You boys and gals up for some hard core chopsockey tonight?"_
> 
> It was always met with some loud HOO RAHs.


It definitely depends how it's used. I've been known to refer to what I do as "karotty" - if you've seen the movie "V for Vendetta", it's said with the accent used in the big fight near the end.


----------



## _Simon_

!!!

Well.... the thread has been entertaining nevertheless XD. I still find myself scratching my head in utter confusion, and rocking back and forth in fetal position... but I'm sure that'll pass... right?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> !!!
> 
> Well.... the thread has been entertaining nevertheless XD. I still find myself scratching my head in utter confusion, and rocking back and forth in fetal position... but I'm sure that'll pass... right?


Eventually. But you'll have to get into a discussion of aviation with @Steve first.


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> OMGawd, I'm terrible for using what,? "initials."  And you're so reasonable a person because you qualified with "somewhat."



I'm sure you are having a grand time sat at your computer imagining you are the Grand Poohbah of martial arts, I'm also sure you are sat there giggling away at how you are mystifying and spreading your peculiar type of so called wisdom but what you really don't understand is that you are really, really boring. 
You are that drunk person that is mumbling while his mates try to get him home, the junkie who thinks he has found earth shattering insights into the nature of the world but dear me it's so boring. Yes, really it is, you aren't anything special, nothing new comes from your posts just your discourtesy and disdain for people. it's not as if you come up with any interesting insults or put downs, yours are from the kindergarten. It's not even worth reporting your little tantrums they are so insignificant. Even your grammar is poor, as for spelling it also indicates kindergarten. It's clearly a waste of your time posting here, there are other sites that really need your insights, try the famous Bullshido, they will love you I promise.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> _*I'm sure you are having a grand time sat at your computer imagining you are the Grand Poohbah of martial arts, *_I'm also sure you are sat there giggling away at how you are mystifying and spreading your peculiar type of so called wisdom but what you really don't understand is that you are really, really boring.
> You are that drunk person that is mumbling while his mates try to get him home, the junkie who thinks he has found earth shattering insights into the nature of the world but dear me it's so boring. Yes, really it is, you aren't anything special, nothing new comes from your posts just your discourtesy and disdain for people. it's not as if you come up with any interesting insults or put downs, yours are from the kindergarten. It's not even worth reporting your little tantrums they are so insignificant. Even your grammar is poor, as for spelling it also indicates kindergarten. It's clearly a waste of your time posting here, there are other sites that really need your insights, try the famous Bullshido, they will love you I promise.



Please don't speak for me TEZ(see the bold).  I'm sure this, etc.  and I'm sure that.  If you can't stand a challenge to your thinking, that's on you.

Your text paints a description of yourself, when anyone comes along with traditionalism at heart.  Take that to heart, please.  The comment you penned is so bad, you need a nurse to bring it back to health.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> My point proven



Your point was proven before your vague account was create.  Baseless.


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> Your point was proven before your vague account was create.  Baseless.


Again your post makes no sense. You need to learn some proper sentence structure


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Please don't speak for me TEZ(see the bold).  I'm sure this, etc.  and I'm sure that.  If you can't stand a challenge to your thinking, that's on you.
> 
> Your text paints a description of yourself, when anyone comes along with traditionalism at heart.  Take that to heart, please.  The comment you penned is so bad, you need a nurse to bring it back to health.




Not sure you work that out because you have obviously forgotten I'm a karateka, a traditional one at that and have been so  for more years than you have been around. I have never minded a challenge to my thinking, the problem is you are no challenge.
The only thing penned is your mind, I'm afraid. it's a shame you espouse TMAs but don't actually understand them.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Eventually. But you'll have to get into a discussion of aviation with @Steve first.


I haven't been keeping up with this thread since it went into the twilight zone.  I don't have the bandwidth to try and sort it out.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> Not sure you work that out because you have obviously forgotten I'm a karateka, a traditional one at that and have been so  for more years than you have been around. I have never minded a challenge to my thinking,* the problem is you are no challenge.*
> The only thing penned is your mind_*, I'm afraid. it's a shame *_you espouse TMAs but don't actually understand them.




I didn't forget.  There you go again putting words in my mouth.  Tradition requires an open mind and candid self appraisal.  So you mean you train Wado ryu yet have a code of something else.  Like your prior, intolerant post.

See the bold.  Different thinking = problem.  My stand confirmed.  "It's a shame," I'm ashamed."  Yes you are, and yes you should be.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Headhunter said:


> Again your post makes no sense. You need to learn some proper sentence structure


ZzZzZz


----------



## Headhunter

ShotoNoob said:


> ZzZzZz


Very mature. I expect nothing less


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I haven't been keeping up with this thread since it went into the twilight zone.  I don't have the bandwidth to try and sort it out.


It really isn't worth the effort, Steve. I just like invoking you sometimes. Cheers!


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> I didn't forget.  There you go again putting words in my mouth.  Tradition requires an open mind and candid self appraisal.  So you mean you train Wado ryu yet have a code of something else.  Like your prior, intolerant post.
> 
> See the bold.  Different thinking = problem.  My stand confirmed.  "It's a shame," I'm ashamed."  Yes you are, and yes you should be.



I live my life as a Jew and as one at this moment I am in mourning. Say what the hell you like, no one is actually listening to your stream of intolerance, insults and just plain childishness. You think to wind people up, then have a go at them, childish and banal. You have verbal diarrhea and mental constipation, it's messy, nasty and needs to be dealt with. 

I strongly suggest we all just ignore this person and his dance of ignorance and malice, I also suggest we hug our families and friends tell them we love them, life can be very short and heartbreaking. 
See you all later, I'm bowing out on this and I have some things to do.


----------



## DaveB

Tez3 said:


> I live my life as a Jew and as one at this moment I am in mourning. Say what the hell you like, no one is actually listening to your stream of intolerance, insults and just plain childishness. You think to wind people up, then have a go at them, childish and banal. You have verbal diarrhea and mental constipation, it's messy, nasty and needs to be dealt with.
> 
> I strongly suggest we all just ignore this person and his dance of ignorance and malice, I also suggest we hug our families and friends tell them we love them, life can be very short and heartbreaking.
> See you all later, I'm bowing out on this and I have some things to do.


Seconded.

I had Shotonoob on ignore until recently. I couldn't remember why it had been so long, but this nonsense is just plain disruptive.

I've had many an argument on MT but with one exception (And then only in a single instance) no one has ever shown such a lack of substance.

I genuinely believe he's just here to get his jollies trolling and derailing discussions into nonsense.

Were there even an attempt to honestly clarify things or fix misunderstanding I might suggest the benefit of the doubt, but there's not.


----------



## Flying Crane

Headhunter said:


> Can someone please sum up what on earth noob is on about I've tried to follow it but it makes absolutely 0 sense to me so am wondering if anyone can translate his rambling nonsense into something that makes sense


No.  It’s simply not possible.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Headhunter said:


> Can someone please sum up what on earth noob is on about I've tried to follow it but it makes absolutely 0 sense to me so am wondering if anyone can translate his rambling nonsense into something that makes sense


If I could I would, but I can't so I shan't.


----------



## TSDTexan

Reading this whole thread.





and the exchanges have me all like





but when the dumpster fire gets hotter...
i am all like...


----------

