# US News: Herbal supplement ephedra to be banned



## Bob Hubbard (Dec 30, 2003)

They keep tobaco, but boot ephedra.  Guess which lobby lost the battle?

The damn things not meant for weight loss.... its the misuse thats the problem.

Morons.



> Herbal supplement ephedra to be banned
> 
> (CNN) --Federal officials are moving to ban the sale of the herbal supplement ephedra because of continued health concerns about the product.
> 
> ...


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 30, 2003)

Here is another Link from the Associated Press.


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2003)

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11468
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9232


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## theletch1 (Dec 31, 2003)

Ephedra lost, of course, because there is not nearly the tax money in that one supplement as there is in tobacco.  I envision banning tobacco as being something along the lines of prohibition of alcohol.  Far too often, laws are put into place because stupid people don't know how to follow directions.  How many of the deaths attributed to ephedra did not have anything to do with pre-existing conditions or use of massive doses of the stuff?


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 18, 2004)

There are more annual deaths due to aspirin than there are to ephedra.

<sigh...>

It'd be nice if the government let the "informed electorate" take responsibility for themselves when it comes to such things.  

Publish its dangers and let us deal with it as necessary.  

Caveat Emptor.




Regards,


Steve


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *There are more annual deaths due to aspirin than there are to ephedra.
> 
> <sigh...>
> ...



You mean like a warning on the side of the bottle that says this may be hazordous or dangerous to your health?   

I agree education is the best answer, and not propoganda from the manufacturers.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 19, 2004)

The warnings were there.  The problem simply is people are stupid and will use it anyway.

How many of us read the label on the bottle of pain killer and pop 3 not 2 cuz its a doozy of a headache?

How many of us smoke or drink?

How many of us train or work without adequete eye protection?

I honestly don't see a ban being the answer though.  A ban on its use in dietary aids, yes, but not a total ban.  When used peoperly, its a very good herb.  The main part which has been missed is, its not a diet herb.  Its the misuse of it as one thats caused the problem.

But, people are stupid....and once elected, doubly so.

:asian:


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## psi_radar (Jan 19, 2004)

Dosing is somewhat arbitrary. Recommended dosages for a 250-pound man are often the same as for a 100-pound woman.

I believe the real underlying reason for banning ephedra is its use as the base product for crystal methedrine. Personally I think it's good stuff (Ma Huang or ephedrine) when taken in moderation.


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## Chronuss (Jan 23, 2004)

I took dietary pills to help lose weight...they contained ephedra.  ya know what happened....I lost weight.  I took the recommended dosage, drank nothing but water and my usual cup of coffee in the morning.  and the damn things worked.  I lost about sixty pounds in around four months.  I slowly worked my way off of'em and I've been able to keep the weight off, give or take five or ten pounds.  and when I was using them, I also took'em with a multivitamin since I wasn't taking nearly as much food as I usually did.  but, hey...I didn't over do it...didn't take more than I was supposed to...and it worked.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 23, 2004)

I can't say I am worried about it one way or the other. As a rule I would never recomend it for people. I personaly feel that if you eat right and stay active you are better off than inundating your body with stimulants. I often feel that most people would take the drug as a substitute for eating right and exercising. I know there are exceptional people that come from BIG families, but was it nature or nurture? As you have stated the government left us the traditional apetite supressant we all know and love... Tobacco
Sean


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## Shiatsu (Jan 23, 2004)

Here is a good link, for everyone that thinks ephedra is so evil.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ephedraissafe.htm


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 23, 2004)

Two good articles on ephedra from Reason mag online:

http://www.reason.com/sullum/010204.shtml


http://www.reason.com/sullum/072503.shtml


They make some excellent points.  

Excerpt...

The Bechler case illustrates the peril of leaping to conclusions when someone dies after consuming an ephedra product. News reports frequently assert that "more than 100 deaths" have been "linked" to ephedra. Yet a RAND Corporation study of all the "adverse event" reports in the FDA's files and in the medical literature that were available as of September 30 found only two fatalities where there was an attempt to rule out other factors. 



Regards,


Steve


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## edhead2000 (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by psi_radar _
> *Dosing is somewhat arbitrary. Recommended dosages for a 250-pound man are often the same as for a 100-pound woman.
> *



Dosing of any drug or substance is arbitrary -- aspirin, ibuprofen, acetaminophen......  That's why you have pharmacists!


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## edhead2000 (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *The damn things not meant for weight loss
> *



I agree with you that ephedrine/ephedra's _original_ use wasn't for weight loss, but with the advent of new beta selective therapies for bronchodilation and alpha selective therapies for hypotension, cardiac output, heart rate, and peripheral resistance, the use of ephedrine has turned to weight loss and energy (the two go hand in hand).  It's a drug (or as the FDA would like to call it, a "supplement") that has really outrun its course and fallen into antiquity.  Therefore, people use it for what it does........weight loss.    

Personally, I think the main problem is the entire herbal market.  There needs to be regulation.  The DSHEA unregulation is incredible.  The FDA requires that the label of "dietary supplements" state 1. that is is a supplement, 2. the name and address of the manufacturer, packer, or distributor, and 3. all ingredients and net contents of the product.  DSHEA leaves it up to the manufacturer to ensure that the product is safe and contains the listed ingredients, however, since neither the manufacturer or the product has to register with the FDA, there is no check in the system.  This leaves an incredibly wide margin of error.  Is the ephedra that you're taking the same as the ephedra that someone else is taking?  No.  Does your ephedra even have the stated amount in it?  Doesn't have to.  It could be 10 times less than the amount stated or 10 times more.  Say you have high blood pressure and you're aware of the risks of ephedra.  You pick up a bottle with supposedly "low" ephedra content, but the manufacturer only put that label on the bottle to boost sales so the bottle actually has a "high" ephedra content.  You take it and die of a heart attack.  Very very possible.  This is why it is so easy to overdose on ephedra -- you have no way of knowing how much is in each tablet.  Yes, there are wonderful internet sites out there that do check the content and that helps, if you buy that product.  But, all in all, it's a gamble.  You don't know what you're getting until you're dead.


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## edhead2000 (Jan 25, 2004)

Sorry, my cat walked across the keyboard and sent my post before I was finished. 

My point is this: without regulation and testing of herbal products, there is no guarantee of what you're getting.  Do I think stricter regulation will ban other potentially useful herbal/dietary supplements?  Yes, but isn't that's what happening anyways?  

Having said all of this, I do want to add that I am not against or anti- any herbal or dietary supplements.  And I do not work for the FDA.  Personally I use herbal products and I would recommend their responsible use.  But it's hard to use a product responsibly if you don't know how much of a substance is in it.  I definitely recommend the "natural" product above manufactured products.  I know the FDA system isn't perfect, but it's the best we've got right now.  

Just my thoughts....


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 26, 2004)

> I know the FDA system isn't perfect, but it's the best we've got right now.



In contrast to what?


Ephedra's dangers are grossly over rated, as noted in the "Reason" articles I posted.

In 1999 the Drug Abuse Awareness Network counted 811 serious adverse effects attributed all or in part to Valium ingestion, 641 for Benadryl, 427 for Tylenol, 305 for Prozac, and 104 for aspirin. 

A Rand corporation study reviewed the medical literature and found TWO deaths that could be attributed to ephedra.  

Far more people die by misuse of the aforementioned drugs.

The present system is quick to criminalize ANY drug that can't be cornered by the very powerful pharmaceutical lobby.  Lilly, Pfizer, etc. have failed to come up with a safe and profitable weight loss drug.  Ephedra is safe for most, works very well, and is extremely popular.  Hence, by their reasoning, it should be banned.  They can't make a decent profit off of it, and it competes with their prescription products.  The solution?  Leverage the government into making it illegal.


Regards,



Steve


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## Chronuss (Jan 26, 2004)

I'm walking proof the stuff worked.  didn't have any adverse side effects, took the recommended eight pills a day, drank a helluva lot of water...and the stuff worked.  sometimes I think I didn't drank enough water cause I'd get light headed sometimes, but other than that...I lost weight, didn't eat as much, and wasn't as hungry as I normally was.


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## edhead2000 (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *
> The present system is quick to criminalize ANY drug that can't be cornered by the very powerful pharmaceutical lobby.  Lilly, Pfizer, etc. have failed to come up with a safe and profitable weight loss drug.  Ephedra is safe for most, works very well, and is extremely popular.  Hence, by their reasoning, it should be banned.  They can't make a decent profit off of it, and it competes with their prescription products.  The solution?  Leverage the government into making it illegal.
> *



Do you really think it was Lilly and Pfizer that had the biggest say in banning ephedra and not the families of people who have died?  I think it's the Bechler case that really got this whole ball rolling.  If I were Pfizer or Lilly, I'd be pushing the FDA to make ephedra a prescription only drug -- not ban it entirely.  

I don't doubt that it doesn't work and that it's safe in some people.  But the fact of the matter is that ephedra is nonselective, which can lead to big problems in people who are predisposed to it.  This is not to say that I think it should be banned......I can just see why these so called adverse effects are/can happen.  Yes, I wish people would use products correctly, but we can't ever expect that to happen.  Trust me, people tell me the strangest things....  There's no real answer, expect to make it a prescription drug (at this point).  

Why isn't the FDA banning aspirin, tylenol, and benadryl?   Well, that depends......these serious adverse effects..........are they all death?  If noone's dying from them, then we assume they're safe.  Also, I don't see anybody lobbying the FDA to ban aspirin.  We also know that the benefits of aspirin usually outweigh the possibility of risks.  We didn't know that with ephedra because it was (un)regulated by DSHEA, which doesn't require clinical trials.  If we don't know the benefits, then the risks are always going to be higher.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2004)

> Why isn't the FDA banning aspirin, tylenol, and benadryl? Well, that depends......these serious adverse effects..........are they all death?



I think the key point here is that you and I can grow herbs.  Just order some seeds, water, fertalize and harvest.

While we can make some of the other substances, its not as easy as growing herbs.

Its less a matter of public safety, and more of control.

Otherwise, they'd have banned tobaco aons ago.


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## edhead2000 (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I think the key point here is that you and I can grow herbs.  *



Unfortunately, given where I live, it would be a whole lot easier for me to grow marijuana than ephedra.  Oh well.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 27, 2004)

> I think it's the Bechler case that really got this whole ball rolling.



No doubt that was capitalized upon by the pharmaceutical lobby.  They're quick to take advantage of the "Chicken Little" effect that gets people screaming about the dangers of something.  

In the eighties tryptophan, an amino acid, was yanked from the shelves because of several deaths due to what appeared to be tryptophan ingestion.  It turns out that it wasn't the tryptophan, , but impurities in the pills brought about by poor manufacturing.  Tryptophan, a natural and healthy sleep aid, was demonized for no reason.

I suspect that if melatonin were implicated in just one death people would be screaming for its removal, and the lobby would take advantage of that as well.  Its so safe, however, that this hasn't happened.  

Regards,


Steve


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## psi_radar (Jan 27, 2004)

> Tryptophan, a natural and healthy sleep aid, was demonized for no reason.



They banned turkey!? Now I'm pissed...


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by psi_radar _
> *They banned turkey!? Now I'm pissed... *



It is the difference between L Tryptophen and R Tryptophen. One is natural and the other was man made. I cannot remember of the top of my head which is which.

So, Turkey and Warm Milk are not banned


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## theletch1 (Jan 29, 2004)

Thought this site might prove pertinent to the discussion....ephedra


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