# Tae Kwon do Gun Disarms



## Cryozombie (Aug 29, 2005)

My co-workers daughter studys TKD, and just tested for her Black Stripes. As part of the test he said she had to do Gun-disarms.

I was curious about how TKD approaches Gun-disarm training, can anyone give me some examples how its done?

Thanks!


----------



## Kamaria Annina (Aug 29, 2005)

Well in our classes, we practice inside/outside cresent kicks if we are in range.  We are also taught to carefully control the gun, it being the most vital in an attack.


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 29, 2005)

Get a water pistol (or paintball gun) and try it, with the person shooting you if it doesn't work like you planned.

 I'd imagine you'll all get rather wet...


----------



## kenpochad (Aug 29, 2005)

I don't do TKD but I was told get in on a gun and run from a knife.
If they mad up there mind that they are going to shot you try something .


----------



## Spookey (Aug 29, 2005)

Dear Sir,

Most realistic gun disarming techniques I have experienced all have on thing in common (other than being fool proof)...solid control of the weapon!

If the fire arm is in reach two things must happen simultaneously.

1. You must, abruptly, move yourself from the line of fire

2. You must firmly secure the weapon while moving it in the opposite direction of your body.

Once a grip is made it is necesarry to begin to attack the wrist joint (as well as the body) in order to remove the firearm from the hands of the attacker. All while paying added attention to the muzzle position!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


----------



## bignick (Aug 29, 2005)

Kamaria Annina said:
			
		

> Well in our classes, we practice inside/outside cresent kicks if we are in range. We are also taught to carefully control the gun, it being the most vital in an attack.


 How is executing a cresent kick to the gun in any way maintaining control of the weapon/weapon hand?  

 And I agree with Andrew, might want to practice that in a swimsuit.

 We used to teach gun disarms but we've done some serious evaluation of those types of techiniques and they came to the conclusion that the disarm techniques we had been using, just like so many other schools and arts were just not up to par.


----------



## bignick (Aug 29, 2005)

As for now.  We teach running from both a gun and a knife, if possible...


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 29, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> As for now. We teach running from both a gun and a knife, if possible...


Can you run from a gun?

I mean... BANG!


----------



## Han-Mi (Aug 29, 2005)

tot tell the truth, a crescent kick is prolly the worst thing to do against a gun wielding stranger.  Maybe a knife, but definately not a gun

We pulled our techs from other instructors. I don't know anything about traditional gun disarming, if such a thing exists.


----------



## Han-Mi (Aug 29, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Can you run from a gun?
> 
> I mean... BANG!


 
A good point. i tell students to do what ever they are told unless they feel that harm will come them anyway.


----------



## MJS (Aug 29, 2005)

Han-Mi said:
			
		

> tot tell the truth, a crescent kick is prolly the worst thing to do against a gun wielding stranger.



I agree!  I would think that getting your body out of the line of fire and getting control of the weapon/hand would be a safe bet.



> Maybe a knife, but definately not a gun



I can't speak for everyone else but I'd stay away from kicking against the knife as well.

Mike


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 29, 2005)

Simulation with a paintball gun will really give you a feel for what you are up against when it comes to empty hand defense against firearms.  I practiced this drill with a martial arts group a few years back.

Here is what we discovered.

If the gun is not drawn, attack.  Do not allow them to draw the weapon.  At five feet, with a paintball gun, it is almost impossible to get the gun out, up and aimed.  At ten feet, this is still very difficult without training.  At 15 feet, if the attackers reflexes are average, the shooter could fire on a quick attacker.

If the gun is drawn and aimed your options are limited by distance.  At five feet, one can attempt to get off line and get control of the weapon.  Against a live attacker with a paintball gun, I was hit five times for ever one time I got the weapon.  At 10 feet, I tried twenty five times and got the weapon once.  On the other hand, I ran in a curved path and was not hit 50% of the time.  At 15 feet it was impossible for me to get the gun.  However, I was able to evade 50% of the time.

Running is a good defense against the gun IMO if there is no other options and the weapon is already drawn.  If you run in a curved path, the shooter is going to have to lead you in order to hit.  The shooter will have a higher percentage of missed shots depending on the shooter's skill.


----------



## kwon 17 (Aug 29, 2005)

An my school we learn knife disarms as well as gun disarms.My Sa bum nim tells us to only fight back in these situations unless all other options are out ther window.However, we are still taught how to approach theses situations.In gun situations we practice with water guns like others suggested and are taught how to disarms them depending  on where the attacker is holding it.This can also be known as angle of attack which I believe is the foundation of gun disarms.We also practice Knife techniques and are the basics we are told are angle of attack,distance of the knife from your body and many other techniques for both situations.


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 29, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Running is a good defense against the gun IMO if there is no other options and the weapon is already drawn. If you run in a curved path, the shooter is going to have to lead you in order to hit. The shooter will have a higher percentage of missed shots depending on the shooter's skill.


 Interesting... Ill have to give that a "shot" hehe


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 29, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Can you run from a gun?
> 
> I mean... BANG!


 Depends on how good a shot the bad guy is.  If ya gotta run, run zig-zagged or not in a straight line.


----------



## bignick (Aug 30, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Can you run from a gun?
> 
> I mean... BANG!


 I'm sure an LEO can give the statisitics better than I can but the chances of you getting shot are actually slim...and even if you are shot, doesn't mean you're down and out...people get shot all the time and live. 

 Upnorth...sounds like you discovered the 21 foot rule. On average a person with a holstered weapons needs to be over 21 feet away from a knife wielding attacker to have time to draw and shoot before the attacker reaches them and can stab, cut, etc....

 And yes, crescent kicking any incoming attack is a bad idea.  A cresent kick is a pretty limited range weapon, either way....you have to be about the right distance to hit a target at a certain height, at least that's what I've discovered.  I think some of this comes from the fact that sometimes crescent kicks are taught where someone will come with a punch and you will crescent kick their hand away...all well in class, but if you analyze the situation, unless you are extremely flexible, if you can crescent kick their hand, they were too far away to hit you anyways.  What the kick should be doing and is simulating is a  kick to the head the moment you see any sort of motion indicating attack.  That requires a lot less finesse, but still a great deal of speed.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Aug 30, 2005)

When we learned a crescent kick we talked a bit about using it against a knife but since then our SD classes against knives have not used it.  I'd have to be fairly confident I could get to the wrist fast with power before I would try it (and I don't think I have that speed/power).

 I wouldn't try it against a gun, too likely to go off...too likely for them to tense up, etc... 

 Just guessing but it seems to me that with knife disarms that if ou don't disarm them, you can still defend against the ongoing attack. For example, if I crescent kick and don't disarm the knife, I'm still standing and if he lunges, etc, then I have another defense. My feeling is that the whole purpose of a gun disam is to get the gun away before the attack, the shot, so you need to *at least* gain control of the weapon if you don't take it away.  A cresent kick that misses the target or does not break the gun loose is just going to make the attacker more upset and open fire and I don't think I have a good defense for a gun shot at that range...


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 30, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> 1. You must, abruptly, move yourself from the line of fire
> 
> 2. You must firmly secure the weapon while moving it in the opposite direction of your body.
> 
> Once a grip is made it is necesarry to begin to attack the wrist joint (as well as the body) in order to remove the firearm from the hands of the attacker. All while paying added attention to the muzzle position!


 This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:

 1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
 2. Contain/control the weapon.
 3. Disarm the attacker.
 4. Neutralize the attack.

 Anybody else follow this?


----------



## MJS (Aug 30, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:
> 
> 1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
> 2. Contain/control the weapon.
> ...



Yes, my thoughts exactly!


----------



## Gemini (Aug 30, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:
> 
> 1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
> 2. Contain/control the weapon.
> ...


Basically the same concept at my school. While practicing, one of the hardest things to get right is the transition between 2 and 3. Myself included. After controlling the weapon, they focus on disarming and tend to allow the attacker to point the barrell right back at them. Game over. Like anything else, just keep practicing.

Some interesting info on the success rate at different distances though. And I like the idea of the paint ball gun. I bet at point blank range, you'd have a real good incentive to get it right as quickly as possible.


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 30, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> Some interesting info on the success rate at different distances though. And I like the idea of the paint ball gun. I bet at point blank range, you'd have a real good incentive to get it right as quickly as possible.


hahahahaha :rofl: 

This little experiment took a few days.  A person can only take so much pain.  We hit the bar afterward for a little analgesic.

Getting hit at five feet was worse then getting hit when the paintball exited the barrel.  I had bruises for weeks.  Btw - I don't recommend training like this on a regular basis...unless you really really really like pain.


----------



## searcher (Aug 30, 2005)

We do not perform gun disarms in my TKD.   If there is no other choice it would be better to try something than nothing.  Either way there is slim chance of success.


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 30, 2005)

From 10 feet out whether the gun is drawn or not, I teach my students to run away in a curved path from a gun.  It gives the highest probability of survival and it is the easiest when the adrenaline and feat is flowing.

Closer then 10 feet, if the gun isn't drawn.  Attack as brutally as possible.  Do not let your opponent draw the weapon.  Disable your opponent.

If the gun is drawn and you are closer then 10 feet, try something.  Get off line, secure the weapon.  Attempt to disarm.  Disable the attacker.  

An eye rake makes a gun useless.  It is probably one of the highest percentage techniques that will keep you alive, in my opinion.


----------



## bignick (Aug 30, 2005)

Got the stat tonight from my Judo and Jujutsu instructor, who was in the Marines for 19 years and a LEO since 1984.  

"In a real gun fight, you've got a 93% chance of them missing from only 7 feet away."

If you're running full out, you're gonna be able to put a lot more than 7 feet between you and them.


----------



## swiftpete (Aug 31, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> We do not perform gun disarms in my TKD. If there is no other choice it would be better to try something than nothing. Either way there is slim chance of success.


I wouldn't say there is necessarily a slim chance of success, it depends on how you train it really. My instructor can disarm someone with a gun or knife without much trouble at all. They usually end up on the floor with him kneeling on/locking some part of their body, weapon gone and them in a lot of pain. Of course that depends on being within a few feet of them i guess, but he doesn't struggle. Not saying I'd be able to do it that well personally but i know that it is possible!


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 1, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:
> 
> 1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
> 2. Contain/control the weapon.
> ...


  I think for us it is...

  1.  Get off the line of attack
 2. Control/neutralize the attacker (weapon non-issue then). We never focus on the weapon, as it is harmless. It is the weilder that is dangerous.


----------



## Spookey (Sep 1, 2005)

Dear Sir,

The pretty theory of your statement is beautiful to say the least. I firmly agree that guns dont kill people, people kill people...BUT THEY USE GUNS!

During the neutralization of the attacker certain involuntary motions will take place. When being attacked it is natural to suffer inadvertant muscle tension and flinching.

If you are not in control of the weapon you cannot control the line of fire, and one wrong twitch or flinch on the weapon holders part and the firearm may discharge even without the intention of the weapon holder!

Never had this happen with a "red gun"...BECAUSE THE TRIGGER DOESNT WORK! Try that with an unloaded J-Frame revolver in the single action mode!

Think that over, and try it a time or two in real time! 

SpooKeY


----------



## searcher (Sep 1, 2005)

swiftpete said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say there is necessarily a slim chance of success, it depends on how you train it really. My instructor can disarm someone with a gun or knife without much trouble at all. They usually end up on the floor with him kneeling on/locking some part of their body, weapon gone and them in a lot of pain. Of course that depends on being within a few feet of them i guess, but he doesn't struggle. Not saying I'd be able to do it that well personally but i know that it is possible!


My reasoning behind not attempting to disarm due to a slim chance of success comes from listening to a Sayoc Kali instructor say that it is highly difficult to disarm an un-trained person with a knife.   The use of a gun brings a new dynamic to the situation.   If your instructor can disarm with ease, the atacker is not trying very hard.  I mean no offense against you or your instructor in my reply.


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 1, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> Dear Sir,
> If you are not in control of the weapon you cannot control the line of fire, and one wrong twitch or flinch on the weapon holders part and the firearm may discharge even without the intention of the weapon holder!


 OK, let's take this one piece of mechanics out of the whole situation and analyze it.  You are telling me that if you are holding a firearm, I cannot control where you point the gun?  You have an arm with a hand at the end (holding a knife, gun, or heck even a light saber) ?  So you mean I can use your arm to control your body (such as in the use of arm bars), but I cannot use your arm to control your hand and your body?  I can keep your arm from bending, no?  If I control where you point the weapon I keep you from shooting anyone, but pretty soon you would have far more things to worry about than pulling the trigger of a gun you cannot aim.  Keep in mind the safest place to be is between the weapon and the attacker, NOT in front of the weapon.  Think about that for a while.



			
				Spookey said:
			
		

> Never had this happen with a "red gun"...BECAUSE THE TRIGGER DOESNT WORK! Try that with an unloaded J-Frame revolver in the single action mode!
> 
> Think that over, and try it a time or two in real time!
> 
> SpooKeY


 To be honest, we have used various weapons that fire objects including the airsoft guns which are generally dimensionally correct for their real world counterpart. What I am talking about works, as can be demonstrated over and over. If you control the attacker you certainly control the weapon, but if you are struggling for control of the weapon it becomes a struggle of strength and the one who is "STRONGER" is likely to win. Meanwhile while your struggling with the weapon, the attacker's buddy shoots you in the back (which at this point has not even been brought up). 

 Try grabbing the knife out of the hands of a trained knife fighter, see what happens. Same as trying to grab a gun and control it from a trained gun weilding attacker, that is a good way to get shot.

    So I respectfully disagree with you on all points.

 EDIT: In all fairness, when I say control the attacker I mean control the attacker in it's entirety. Including where the attacker is pointing the weapon. So there might be a misunderstanding of what I mean by control! But I DO NOT mean grabbing the weapon and wrestling it out of the attackers hands.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 1, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> EDIT: In all fairness, when I say control the attacker I mean control the attacker in it's entirety. Including where the attacker is pointing the weapon. So there might be a misunderstanding of what I mean by control! But I DO NOT mean grabbing the weapon and wrestling it out of the attackers hands.


A simple check to the weapon hand/arm would suffice.  Your posts bear some serious thought.  I've always been taught to control the weapon, but this has always turned into a match when the attacker is really trying to hold on to the weapon.  I figured that by using superior technique it would be possible to win out against strength.  Even with good technique, it is still "hard".  

I wonder if the weapon check/disable attacker approach would produce higher percentage results?  I'll experiment and report back...


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 1, 2005)

Everyone, my apologies, for straying off topic with my previous post. I realize I am in the TKD forum and I am not trying to hijack the thread or cause any angst from my fellow martial artists. The thread starter was asking about how gun disarms are dealt with in TKD and I provided some some insight into a non-TKD approach. Again, my apologies for drifting the thread.


----------



## Spookey (Sep 1, 2005)

Dear BigShadow,


It is completely possible to lock my arm immobile as you stated, but my question is if you are busy locking my arm, what prevents me from reaching with my free hand taking the gun into it and shooting you...after all you are busy with me and my arm as opposed to my gun. 

Second of all I do believe it highly unlikely that you can completely immobilize the multiple joints of both of my arms to a point which will guarantee that you stay off line from the muzzle. 

Please explain this amazing ability!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


----------



## Digger70chall (Sep 2, 2005)

while watching the black belt classes i've seen the use of both attacking the weapon and attacking the hand holding the weapon.  I've only really seen them attack the arm during a knife defense but they locked it out to the side making reaching around with the opposite hand impossible to do, place your right arm straight out and try to reach with the opposite hand...it's won't reach, so i can see where attacking and immobilizing the arm is a viable strategy as well as simply disarming them.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Sep 2, 2005)

Bigshadow, don't sweat it.  I think gun-disarms are dangerous and poorly understood by many , but very crucial to understand these days, so it's good to get practical input from any background


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 2, 2005)

If the weapon is an extension of the body, you don't want to attack the weapon (weapon sharp or fast - not good), you want to control the part of the body which holds the weapon.  When it's under your control you can harm or stun the owner so that you may then disarm or ... make the owner use their own weapon on them.

 If the attacker can access the weapon with the other hand, the weapon is not controlled by you.


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 2, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> If the attacker can access the weapon with the other hand, the weapon is not controlled by you.


 Great point!  That pretty much sums it up!


----------



## FearlessFreep (Sep 2, 2005)

OK, question here.  How much danger is the gun once you'ce gotten 'inside' it and are no longer on-line?  For example, if you do a wrist trap/lock on the weapon hand that takes you out of the line of fire, is the gun still dangerous?

 I guess the reason I ask is that we do a lot of SD moves against punches that involve evading to one side, trapping the wrist of the strike, applying pressure to that hand for manipulation, but also striking various points of the arm (tricep, bicep, elbow, etc...) to take away the ability of that limb to function/strike.  I'm wondering how adatable they would be to a gun situation from short range of moving off target, trapping the wrist and breaking the arm or at least severly damaging it to get them to drop the gun.


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 2, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> OK, question here. How much danger is the gun once you'ce gotten 'inside' it and are no longer on-line? For example, if you do a wrist trap/lock on the weapon hand that takes you out of the line of fire, is the gun still dangerous?


 Well, (teasingly) the gun is not dangerous, EVER! However, the attacker is still a danger to those people around you. You must have an awareness of your surroundings. For instance, you would be safe at that point (for that moment anyway) but your loved ones or innocent bystanders (if any) would not necessarily be safe. It would be your responsibility to control the attacker so that if the attacker does fire the gun, the bullets do not hit anyone. It is OK if they fire the gun as long as it is pointed in a safe direction, or toward themselves. Realistically, if the gun is pointed in a safe direction, then what is the rush to try and get the gun out of the hand? Just dispatch the attacker and you can easily take it from their hand rather than fight them for it.



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I'm wondering how adatable they would be to a gun situation from short range of moving off target, trapping the wrist and breaking the arm or at least severly damaging it to get them to drop the gun.


 Well, look at this way, the weapon is an extension of the body. If you truely believe this and train with that mindset, isn't it all the same?


----------



## TX_BB (Sep 2, 2005)

My two cents, you need to eliminate the attackers will or means to attack in this case a gun. The gun needs to be seperated from the attacker. My reason  is that one does not know where a bullet will eventually stop. Bullets go through people, bounce off bone and metal and generally find ways to do the most destruction as possible.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 2, 2005)

Okay, tried a few things last night.  The defender put on boxing gloves and the attacker put on a stout helmet and chest protector.  When the gun or knife was drawn, I checked the weapon hand slammed my attacker as hard as I could wherever I found an opening.  The blows stunned the attacker and sometimes knocked him down.  I only had problems if I did not maintain contact with the attacker.


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 2, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I only had problems if I did not maintain contact with the attacker.


 It has been my experience that contact IS VERY IMPORTANT!  IMHO, if you lose contact you are essentially starting over at square one (depending on how fast the attacker feels the opening).  It is much like throwing an attacker away from you so they can get up and re-engage, thus the cycle begins again.  At this point it is a battle of stamina.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Sep 2, 2005)

Is part of the issue of guns simply that most people don't understand them and so we fear them in a way that has nothing to do with their actual danger.  For example, a drove to Denver last weekend with a friend and I know he had a .38 in the car for self-defense.  I casually asked him if he trained/practiced with it, which he does, because I was afraid of him needing to use it and not knowing how to handle it.

 I think of the differences between a knife and a gun.  A gun has more lethal power, but it has to be fired and is only dangerous aling the line of fire.  A knife has shorter range and possibly less lethal power, but is always on and can cut or stab from many angles.  Not saying either is less or more dangerous, they are just different.  (and for that matter, a trained fighter who can kick and strike from many directions is different from a knife-weilder who will probably only attack with the knife)

 I guess I'm wondering if people have an unnatural fear of guns owed mostly to unfamiliarity.  A gun is a very potentially dangerous weapon, but it has weaknesses as well.  Do we defend against it with an healthy respect or an unhealthy phobia or....

 I guess past the principle of "don't let your body cross the barrel" I'm not sure what principles I should be looking at.  Obviously, keeping the attaker from pointing at you is a good thing, but then what, do you just control the hand/wrist and strike the head to take the guy out?  Do you try to take away the gun (and do you do that by wrestling the gun or by destroying the limb)?

 Is gun defense/knife defense a new world of self-defense?  Or is it an extension of existing principles/motions/evansions and strikes?


----------



## FearlessFreep (Sep 2, 2005)

_ if you lose contact you are essentially starting over at square one_

 I think I alluded to that in talking about the crescent kick, that if you don't kick the gun from the opponent that you have started over, but given them reason to be more aggressive


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 2, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Is part of the issue of guns simply that most people don't understand them and so we fear them in a way that has nothing to do with their actual danger.


 IMHO, Yes! People have an unnatural phobia of guns because they are generally unfamiliar with them. Don't get me wrong, someone weilding a gun can dole out death very quickly.



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I think of the differences between a knife and a gun. A gun has more lethal power, but it has to be fired and is only dangerous aling the line of fire. A knife has shorter range and possibly less lethal power, but is always on and can cut or stab from many angles. Not saying either is less or more dangerous, they are just different. (and for that matter, a trained fighter who can kick and strike from many directions is different from a knife-weilder who will probably only attack with the knife)


 In my opinion you are seeing the similarities. In principle the gun is no different than a knife. The only difference is the length of the blade(the bullet tragectory in the case of the gun). Essentially the gunshot is no different than a tsuki with a sword, just the "blade" is infinitely longer. 



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I guess past the principle of "don't let your body cross the barrel" I'm not sure what principles I should be looking at. Obviously, keeping the attaker from pointing at you is a good thing, but then what, do you just control the hand/wrist and strike the head to take the guy out? Do you try to take away the gun (and do you do that by wrestling the gun or by destroying the limb)?


 In my opinion the same principles that deal with a knife deals with a gun (at least from the way I see it). It is the mental fear of the gun that makes people want to change their tactics. I think someone terms that Fear reactivity. Certainly a gun can be more lethal if you get shot (stabbed by it) because of the damage of it. But the reality is the bullet goes in a straight line out of the barrel therefore it is yet in principle another bladed weapon.


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 2, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _ if you lose contact you are essentially starting over at square one_
> 
> I think I alluded to that in talking about the crescent kick, that if you don't kick the gun from the opponent that you have started over, but given them reason to be more aggressive


 Yes, you did!  My apologies, I wasn't trying to repeat, it just seemed to flow out as I was typing.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Sep 2, 2005)

Thanks upnorth, for trying that out and letting us know.

 By 'check' I'm taking you to mean some sort of strike/block to the weapin hand/wrist/arm to clear the gun out from pointing at you?


----------



## Loki (Sep 2, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:
> 
> 1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
> 2. Contain/control the weapon.
> ...


 Yes we do, but we make a point of sending at least one attack before disarming in order to stun. A stunned attacker that just got punched in the face is going to be much easier to disarm. With one exception, this is how we do it.

 A kid in one of the groups I used to assist in instructing (a five year old) once told me he knows how to disarm an attacker with a gun. I asked him how and he showed me an inner crescent kick to disarm, inwards spin and another crescent as an attack. I asked him where he learned that, to which he replied "on TV!". Not a recommended technique.

 I've made some promises before, but now that training is back in session (we have summers off), I'll get to work on having those gun videos posted.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 2, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> I've made some promises before, but now that training is back in session (we have summers off), I'll get to work on having those gun videos posted.


Are those Krav Maga techniques for gun disarms loki?

I have a Krav Maga gun disarm video, Id be interested to see the techniques the way you do them.


----------



## Spookey (Sep 2, 2005)

Dear All,

In no way did I attempt to sound demeaning or to be speaking down regarding anyones theories or training. Everyone has issued his or her own rational and logical opinions.

To BigShadow, I believe what you have to say holds great merit. I also should stop and think of this from a civilian mindset. Not all individuals train to fight with a gun, and fortunately I would feel correct in saying that the majority of criminals are among those.

Originally, I looked at this from the view of a compatent martial artist that actively works around firearms and trains to fight with them (as opposed to randomly robbing people) from a combat perspective. From that perspective I see what I feel are holes in your logic, but from that view I see holes in mine as well!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 2, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> Dear All,
> 
> Originally, I looked at this from the view of a compatent martial artist that actively works around firearms and trains to fight with them (as opposed to randomly robbing people) from a combat perspective. From that perspective I see what I feel are holes in your logic, but from that view I see holes in mine as well!
> 
> ...


From that perspective, I would never let a guy get close enough to take it from me...  Thats just silly talk.  (Not you, the idea of doing that)


----------



## Loki (Sep 2, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Are those Krav Maga techniques for gun disarms loki?
> 
> I have a Krav Maga gun disarm video, Id be interested to see the techniques the way you do them.


 Yeah, they are.

 Could you post a link?


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 2, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Yeah, they are.
> 
> Could you post a link?


  Oh, no, I meant I have a Video, as in like a training tape...

http://www.kravmaga.com/store/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jnnrpop0

  Thats the tape... its kinda different than what we do, but was interesting to see.

 Here is a link to a clip off the video... the bottom two are from the Gun defense video:

http://www.kravmaga.com/video.asp


----------



## Loki (Sep 2, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Oh, no, I meant I have a Video, as in like a training tape...
> 
> http://www.kravmaga.com/store/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jnnrpop0
> 
> Thats the tape... its kinda different than what we do, but was interesting to see.


 Gotcha. I plan to bombard Bob with KM material, so there'll be plenty to compare ;-)


----------



## Miles (Sep 3, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:
> 
> 1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
> 2. Contain/control the weapon.
> ...


 I teach to distract before you go off the line.  Can be very simple-quickly look over the attacker's opposite side (i.e. if holding gun in right hand, look over his left shoulder).  Otherwise, same stuff, same order. 

 Miles

 Miles


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 3, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> I teach to distract before you go off the line. Can be very simple-quickly look over the attacker's opposite side
> Miles


I see merit in that... because I think even if he/she isnt going to "fall for it" its going to change their mental focus.

I would liken it to having somone start a fight with you, and then you looking past them and saying "Oh ****, dude, cops!" They might not stop, but a portion of their attention/mental state is going that way.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2005)

Personally, I think its safer to always assume your attacker is going to draw smoothly and fire immediately.  The less an empty handed defender hesitates, the more chance the defender has of turning the tables...IMO.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 3, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Personally, I think its safer to always assume your attacker is going to draw smoothly and fire immediately. The less an empty handed defender hesitates, the more chance the defender has of turning the tables...IMO.


Im thinking more in the case of somone "holding you" at gunpoint.

I have worked numerous techniques for "stopping" the draw... i consider that different.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 3, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> I teach to distract before you go off the line. Can be very simple-quickly look over the attacker's opposite side (i.e. if holding gun in right hand, look over his left shoulder). Otherwise, same stuff, same order.
> 
> Miles


 The four rules are the essential points - "game" or "the act" is tantamount as well. Distraction is important.

 Here's a good distraction story.  A master I know was teaching a now black belt I also know some weapons disarms and told her to create a distraction.  She lifted her top and flashed him.  

 It worked!  :boing1:


----------



## FearlessFreep (Sep 3, 2005)

I haven't learned that one yet....


----------



## Gemini (Sep 3, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> She lifted her top and flashed him.
> 
> It worked!  :boing1:


  Woulda' worked on me....


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 4, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> Not all individuals train to fight with a gun, and fortunately I would feel correct in saying that the majority of criminals are among those.
> 
> Originally, I looked at this from the view of a compatent martial artist that actively works around firearms and trains to fight with them (as opposed to randomly robbing people) from a combat perspective.


 I think I may be misunderstood with regards to the firearm. First, I must say there are situations that the gun or the attacker may not be reached. Which means you will have to do something else! Someone who is CQB trained with a firearm is not going to let you get close enough to them or their weapon. Additionally, one must put the gun in a realistic situation. You cannot just say "OK I am standing over here (30 feet away) pointing a pistol at you and about to pull the trigger". That is not realistic, that may be a snapshot out of a situation, but you must take the "situation" into account. So if you were to rewind the situation, the first question is... "Why is this person pointing a gun at me? " Am I in the middle of a robbery? Is he going to mug me? If so, why is he 30 feet away? Is he taking me hostage? If so, he is going to have to get close at some point. These things determine my actions. Obviously, I am not going to be able to spring into action with every encounter with a gun weilding attacker at the moment the gun flashes into the open. 

 That being said, I don't have a technique A for their action B. It isn't like that. So trying to explain it in that context is not going to work. Just suffice it to say every attack has a shape to it. That shape determines my actions.


----------



## Bigshadow (Sep 4, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> The four rules are the essential points - "game" or "the act" is tantamount as well. Distraction is important.
> 
> Here's a good distraction story. A master I know was teaching a now black belt I also know some weapons disarms and told her to create a distraction. She lifted her top and flashed him.
> 
> It worked!  :boing1:


  That would have definitely been a distraction!  HAHAHA 

 However, distraction and deception must never be overlooked. Anything from an unexpected punch to a unexpected movement can turn the tide.


----------



## Miles (Sep 4, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> A master I know was teaching a now black belt I also know some weapons disarms and told her to create a distraction. She lifted her top and flashed him.


 Oh my!


----------



## Brad Dunne (Sep 24, 2005)

"She lifted her top and flashed him".


And this school is located where?........:uhyeah:


----------



## Laborn (Sep 29, 2005)

In my class im never trained to kick, the gun away, im trained to take the gun from my enemy any way i can, hence he teaches me elboe breaks, shoulder dislocating, wrist breaking.


----------



## Last Fearner (Jan 28, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Running is a good defense against the gun IMO if there is no other options and the weapon is already drawn. If you run in a curved path, the shooter is going to have to lead you in order to hit. The shooter will have a higher percentage of missed shots depending on the shooter's skill.


 
Ok, I just want to know how you are going to run that fast with poop in your pants? :lol: :lol: :lol: 

(Just kidding!)

I would like to comment on this thread though, since one of my areas of teaching specializes in weapons defense. Besides the standard classroom SD, I train executive protection officers whose concern is not just for their own safety, but for keeping someone else alive.

First, the crescent kick runs a great risk. There is the chance that the impact will cause the person to involuntarily squeeze the trigger. The crescent kick tends to move the arm but does not control the wrist, which can flex left or right and the gun will still be aimed at you as it discharges.

If a kick is used the front kick to the bottom of the hand yields better results provided the gun is not aimed at you, or anyone you don't want to get shot. The weapon might discharge but the impact will send it flying straight up. Therefore, if the assailant is waiving the gun around, making gestures and moves the weapon off target, you can use a front kick if you have trained for a real long time - - you don't want to miss!!

The best advice has always been to cooperate if you think they will rob you and leave. However, many people choose not to take the risk against the "killer mentality" of todays gang-bangers. They tend to shoot for no reason, and without warning.  Some of my students train for terrorists, so offensive action is often a priority.

If you are going to move on a gun, it is ideal to be within hands reach of the weapon before you try anything. Some here have described the first move as getting off line from the barrel of the gun. This is true if you are beyond hands reach and feel you must move now. However, I would suggest to attempt to caually close the gap before making a move. The first thing I do is to snap my hand to the side of the weapon hand while rotating my body to minimize the target. No foot movement - no leaning, nothing that would be noticible or take more than a split second or they will shoot you as you attempt to move off line.

A firm redirect of the weapon hand and the weapon itself, then grasp and control the hand AND weapon as you then step in closer. Drawing the weapon hand near you, keep the barrel aligned away as you twist their hand and forearm away from you, turning the top of the weapon to the floor. If there are bystanders that you do not want to get shot, this is where you can shift your body in a circle around the attacker, and even tilt the barrel of the weapon more to the sky. This inverted control of the opponent's arm allows you to control their entire body, controlling the wrist with one hand, and applying upward pressure to their inverted weapon hand. The pain will keep them from resisting, and you can easily strip the weapon from their hand without wrestling with them.

There are also quick strip methods (inward, outward, and over the top) where a firm grab of the wrist with one hand, and the frame of the weapon and barrel with the other will allow you to quickly snap and twist the weapon sideways, or over the top with leverage that even a strong person can not resist.

Trained gunmen will make it difficult to get close, however, if they are about to shoot you, you have little choice but to side step the barrel and move in quickly to take control. In this case, you won't be able to reach the weapon for a quick parry. Even if you get shot, you must have skill enough to take control of the weapon, and take them out, then go to the hospital and hope you survive.

I do not teach to run from a weapon (just my approach). For a knife, back away quickly so they don't charge you, or throw the knife and stick it in your back. For a gun, if there is cover nearby, you can make a quick dash, but running straing, curved, or zig-zag only slightly improves your chances. These days, gang-bangers are using semi-auto, and automatic weapons that spray bullets everywhere. You might "zig" when you should have "zagged."
:snipe2: 

Situations vary, and things might not go the way you would like, but if you are a long distance from the attacker, try to "talk your way closer." Any excuse to cooperate, give them your money, jewelry, beg and plead as you approach them in a non-threatening fashion. If they come to you, great, if not, be creative and close that distance, distract, fake, then blind-side them before they know what happened.

Keep training!!!
Sr. Master Eisenhart


----------



## AceHBK (Feb 2, 2006)

this thread is too funny.
I see the death rate climbing.


----------

