# High Rank and Multiple Arts



## MJS

I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank?  Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it.  I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?

The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well!  I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more.  How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?

Now, for myself, I've never been a rank chaser.  I've been a 3rd for a while, and thats fine with me.  I cross train in Arnis and BJJ.  I have rank in Arnis, but never really had the desire to get any in BJJ.  IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.  

Thoughts?


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## tellner

Status. Marketing. Walter Mittyism. Vanity. Been told that that's what it's all about. Unsure of ability and need reassurance. Norms within their groups.

Take your pick.


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## exile

MJS said:


> I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank?  Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it.  I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?



Big question. I've lived my whole professional life in a bitterly hierarchical system, the academic world of big research universities, and I've noticed some scary parallels to the MA world, which might supply at least part of the answer.

If you look at academics, the reason they perceive high rank the way they do is not really salary, or reputation. You don't get that much of a financial kick upward going from Associate to Full Professor, for example. And your reputation in the field is only indirectly associated with your formal rank. It's based much more on your `breakthrough' discoveries, the kind of thing you became known for, in many cases, _BEFORE_ you were promoted to Full. Nor is it simple academic survival: once you make Associate Professor, you typically have tenure and you're safe from harm. (You _earn_ that protection, mind&#8212;it's extremely tough to get tenure and plenty of Assistant Profs don't, in the end). So why do people obsessively pursue that rank? (and I speak as one who knows first hand just how obsessive it is...)

The answer is I think applicable not just to the university but to the MA world as well. It's this:  when you join the university as a graduate student, you are socialized into a system which does not regard you as fully human; you have to earn treatment as a human being by advancement in the ranks. Get hired in a good dept. on a tenure-track line, that makes you 50% human (and you will be _treated_ by your tenured colleagues as half-human, make no mistake! ) Advance to tenure, and you're now 90% human... but not quite, eh? And that 10% difference is very conspicuous to someone who's grown up in the system. Advance to Full, and, well... now you're a human being. Bear in mind, if you get your first job at age 25, say, you may not make Full until you're in your early 40s, or later. So most of your adult life is learning the cultural currency of a particular ranking system that you've bought into by choosing that way of earning a livelihood, but obviously it's more than that: it's your life-culture, your worldview. I think something similar is going on in the MAs.

Think of a black belt as a Ph.D.; at this point, you're in a sense licensed to explore on your own. You have the basic skills, but still have a reputation to develop if you want respect in that world. And for a lot of people, that kind of respect is just as important as the respect young academics hope for from their peers or senior colleagues. The more you advance in rank, the more you're treated with respect, the more `human' you are. For people who have identified their `life-world' as that of the MAs, gaining that level of respect is probably just as important as it is for a new young faculty member to get acknowledgement of their worth from their older, now comfortably established senior colleagues who have proven themselves through decades of academic combat. I think that _that_ is what the constant pursuit of rank in the MAs is all about.



MJS said:


> The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well!  I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more.  How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?



I've never understood that. But I think some people are biomechanical geniuses, in the same way that certain people launch careers as solo musicians when their age is still in single digits: they're prodigies. They were born to do MAs, and for them, it's like a sponge sucking in water.


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## Kacey

The way I look at it, you can either learn a small number of things in great detail, or a large number of things in broad outline - this applies to quite a few things, rank in MA's among them.

Here's an analogy:  if someone learns Latin, they can learn Latinate languages more easily than someone who learns Russian and then wants to learn Spanish.  Likewise, someone who earns ranks in MA #1 has learned some general principles that are going to be applicable to MA #2, and #3, and so on - making it easier to earn rank in future arts.  

Also, I have seen a fair number of places that will start BB's in any art at their rank in the other art - and continue to advance those BB's whether they learn the lower level material or not, which makes it a lot easier to earn advanced degrees in multiple arts... if you pick subsequent arts with sufficient care.

For myself, I'm not interested in rank in other arts; even in TKD, gaining further rank is a way to increase my knowledge - like a friend of mine who was in a doctoral program that included a master's degree as a signpost of progress toward a Ph. D., rank is something I have earned as a byproduct of my quest for knowledge, rather than something I have sought for its own sake.  I would like to train in some other arts, to increase my understanding in general, and to add the things not emphasized in TKD... but at the rate my schedule is filling, it may have to wait until I retire.


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## Steel Tiger

Ego and money combine to produce this obsession with high rank.  I think that a lot of this has to do with low self-esteem.  It may seem odd to think of people who are supposed to be at the top of the MA game as having low self-esteem, but look at the various reasons that people take up the arts.  Often it is to develop self confidence or to give them a defence against bullying.  Hidden in this are the seeds of low self-esteem.  They dont always grow into the fully blossoming tree but it happens often enough for us to see many rank chasers.

I, too, have always had a problem with high rank in many arts, but I have come to the conclusion that a lot of this rank is what I call mate's rank or honorary rank.  Honorary rank isn't such a problem as it is usually given in recognition for services to the martial arts.  Mate's rank is a different kettle of fish.  Its that insidious 'gift' one friend gives another, usually qid pro qou.  However, you cannot tell the difference between them so it just looks like a person training 30 hours a day.

I have a good rank in one art and that is good enough for me after all the time I've put in.  
I'm happy.


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## still learning

Hello, Many of those with lots of ranks in different arts, were most likely promote faster than those who are NOT involve with other arts.

 Because of their past experiences' many learn faster too.

Joe lewis got his Black belt in less than 7 months in Okinawa, he kept beating all the Black belts in class.

Many of these people did not do for EGO"S, many want to learn something else that would help there search for building there skills.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Many of us skills in plumbing,auto repairs,carpentry,electrcity,computers,fishing,diving,basketball,baseball,...plus other degrees from college,banks,special training in all kinds of things...these degrees benifit our growths.

some are just jack of all trades and master of NONE.    some do become a master level.

Today many NEW students(they have train in other martial arts) come to experience a new art or different style of martial art...exploring,developling new skills, and wanting to learn more and more....

Learning martial art can be endless.....Just my thoughts here.....Still Learning..........Aloha


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## Danjo

High rank is no problem in one or maybe two arts. But much more than that and you can bet that the person bought it or had it given to him honorarily. If it was honorary, no biggie. It's just a way of showing respect etc. If they bought it, or swapped it for rank in one's own art, then it's pretty dispicable. If someone has pretty high rank in only one art, I will likely listen to what they have to say. If they have a bunch of arts that they claim high rank from, then I listen to them less than I would someone who was low ranked.


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## stone_dragone

Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.


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## terryl965

stone_dragone said:


> Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.


 

It really does seem to be this way, just here in my area we have over a 100 master with master titles in 5-7 arts in they are all in there late thirty or early forty what talent they must have.


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## Danjo

stone_dragone said:


> Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.


 
I believe so. It's not uncommon for somone from Japan etc. to have fairly high rank in two arts, but more than that and it gets ridiculous. Mas Oyama was ranked 4th degree in Judo as well as being a Karate Master, for instance. But this is the sort of thing I am talking about. Eventually, it all gets very silly.


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## elder999

Danjo said:


> I believe so. It's not uncommon for somone from Japan etc. to have fairly high rank in two arts, but more than that and it gets ridiculous. Mas Oyama was ranked 4th degree in Judo as well as being a Karate Master, for instance. But this is the sort of thing I am talking about. Eventually, it all gets very silly.


 

It's also not uncommon for them to be ranked in a couple of others, but not ever say anything about it-certainly not advertise or use it as advertising. Mas Oyama, for example,  also trained in daito-ryu aiki budo, and received menkyo from Yoshida Kotaro. He also held dan-rankings in both Shotokan and Goju-ryu before founding Kyokushin.

Also kind of depends on the definition of 'high" rank, I think.


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## Danjo

elder999 said:


> It's also not uncommon for them to be ranked in a couple of others, but not ever say anything about it-certainly not advertise or use it as advertising. Mas Oyama, for example, also trained in daito-ryu aiki budo, and received menkyo from Yoshida Kotaro. He also held dan-rankings in both Shotokan and Goju-ryu before founding Kyokushin.
> 
> Also kind of depends on the definition of 'high" rank, I think.


 
*I agree. I think this is the sort of thing people are talking about here:*

http://www.kenpojoe.com/

"Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts: 
8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi") 
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres) 
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung] 
5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate 
5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated) 
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido 
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu 
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu] 
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu 
1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao 
1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do 
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor] 
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum 
1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa] 
SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU 
SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms 
INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System 
World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative 
[*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "

*That's a lot of rank to have attained with only one of them listed as honorary.*


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## PatMunk

Danjo said:


> High rank is no problem in one or maybe two arts. But much more than that and you can bet that the person bought it or had it given to him honorarily. If it was honorary, no biggie. It's just a way of showing respect etc. If they bought it, or swapped it for rank in one's own art, then it's pretty dispicable. If someone has pretty high rank in only one art, I will likely listen to what they have to say. If they have a bunch of arts that they claim high rank from, then I listen to them less than I would someone who was low ranked.




I have to agree with you Danjo on this ... Claiming multiple high ranks only serves to feed the Ego of the person.  It takes a lifetime to master a martial arts system.

I also would listen to someone who has high rank in one system more than someone who claims high rank in multiple systems.


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## elder999

Danjo said:


> *I agree. I think this is the sort of thing people are talking about here:*
> 
> http://www.kenpojoe.com/
> 
> "Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
> 8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
> 1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
> SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
> SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
> INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
> World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
> [*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "
> 
> *That's a lot of rank to have attained with only one of them listed as honorary.*


 
:lol:

Yeah, that seems like a lot. Though, partially in this example's defense,(knowing nothing else about him, though) I've got to point out that several of those multiple rankings appear to be in the same or related "arts," like everything _Nindo ryu_, or Parker kenpo and Dave German's TAI, and the other kenpo as well....though it is pretty questionable...and unnecessary-he certainly can't be _teaching_ all of those things, or practicing them properly.


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## Tames D

Danjo said:


> High rank is no problem in one or maybe two arts. But much more than that and you can bet that the person bought it or had it given to him honorarily. *If it was honorary, no biggie*. It's just a way of showing respect etc. If they bought it, or swapped it for rank in one's own art, then it's pretty dispicable. If someone has pretty high rank in only one art, I will likely listen to what they have to say. If they have a bunch of arts that they claim high rank from, then I listen to them less than I would someone who was low ranked.


I agree with you on mulitple art ranks but I'm not so sure I buy into the honorary thing. What's the purpose? I certainly wouldn't train under someone with an honorary rank with no experience in that art anymore than I would allow a Doctor with an hornorary medical degree practice on me.


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## Jdokan

If a contractor came to your house with claims of being a master: plumber, electrician, carpenter, landscaper, pc technician that was also prevalent in Microsoft, Novell, Cisco, Linux, etc....would you want him working in your house????  Don't think so............
BUT..that's just me...to each their own...me...I'm simply a ken/mpoist...
I  like to use my hands...I don't even train in weapons (as much as I should) as most of you guys (people....sorry ladies) do....
Anyways....
Peace....
J,


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## Danjo

QUI-GON said:


> I agree with you on mulitple art ranks but I'm not so sure I buy into the honorary thing. What's the purpose? I certainly wouldn't train under someone with an honorary rank with no experience in that art anymore than I would allow a Doctor with an hornorary medical degree practice on me.


 
I agree completely about what you are saying. What I was talking about was the person who has been given an honorary rank and acknowledges it as such. In other words; he's not trying to hide anything or decieve anyone about his knowledge. He's merely pointing out that some organization was nice enough to pay respects to him. Sort of like the LAPD giving Jack Webb badge 714 and making him an Honorary Police Officer. He made them look good over the years on Radio and TV and they were saying thanks.


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## Steel Tiger

Danjo said:


> I agree completely about what you are saying. *What I was talking about was the person who has been given an honorary rank and acknowledges it as such*. In other words; he's not trying to hide anything or decieve anyone about his knowledge. He's merely pointing out that some organization was nice enough to pay respects to him. Sort of like the LAPD giving Jack Webb badge 714 and making him an Honorary Police Officer. He made them look good over the years on Radio and TV and they were saying thanks.


 
It would be nice if we saw this sort of thing more often.  

You know if an instructor acknowledges an honorary rank that they are not going to be teaching anything more than the rudiments of that style and that the more profound teaching will be in their chosen art.

I like the idea of the MA community honouring one of it's members who has contributed over a long period of time.  Unfortunately, all too often we see friends giving each other high rankings for monetary reasons.  To see a list of more than five (let alone eighteen or twenty) arts with high rank is very sad.  It gives the wrong impression of the martial arts.  It suggests that such achievements are easy.

Just taking Mr Rebelo as an example.  Some of the arts listed there take years to develop any sort of understanding, let alone mastery (three styles of taijiquan for example).  It gives aspiring students a very wrong idea of what to expect from their training.


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## Flying Crane

stone_dragone said:


> Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.


 

Well, it'a actually pretty common for Chinese style martial artists to have studied several systems, but they often don't have the same ranking structure so it sort of doesn't attract the same kind of attention.  But it is not uncommon for someone in the Chinese arts to teach several different systems.  

I think the Chinese arts are a bit more fluid in this way, viewing it all as more similar and part of the "Bigger Picture" than seeing it as separate...


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## Flying Crane

Steel Tiger said:


> Just taking Mr Rebelo as an example. Some of the arts listed there take years to develop any sort of understanding, let alone mastery (three styles of taijiquan for example). It gives aspiring students a very wrong idea of what to expect from their training.


 
I'm not championing what Mr. Rebelo seems to be presenting, but keep in mind that he only lists one single form from each of three different Tai Chi Chuan systems.  That is a very limited knowledge of the complete systems.  I don't know how someone comes to be a "sifu" with such a limited knowledge of the system's curriculum, but that's for another discussion I guess...


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## Steel Tiger

Flying Crane said:


> I'm not championing what Mr. Rebelo seems to be presenting, but keep in mind that he only lists one single form from each of three different Tai Chi Chuan systems. That is a very limited knowledge of the complete systems. I don't know how someone comes to be a "sifu" with such a limited knowledge of the system's curriculum, but that's for another discussion I guess...


 
One thing I have noticed about taiji is that lay people tend to think the form is all there is to the art.  Normally, I would not suspect someone's motives in listing their knowledge, but I think in this case it is a way of drawing in new students.  Just another angle from a school that can teach you everything you wanted to know about martial arts but were afraid to ask.

The claim of sifu annoys me a little.  I teach.  I've been trying to understand the one art for two decades.  I could call myself sifu but I prefer not to (I always feel a little uncomfortable when I called sifu).   Maybe this is what it comes down to.  It grates on me to see someone, anyone, claiming multiple high ranks, no matter how many.  But it annoys me because I will see students with unreal expectations with regard to time and rank.


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## Flying Crane

Steel Tiger said:


> One thing I have noticed about taiji is that lay people tend to think the form is all there is to the art. Normally, I would not suspect someone's motives in listing their knowledge, but I think in this case it is a way of drawing in new students. Just another angle from a school that can teach you everything you wanted to know about martial arts but were afraid to ask.
> 
> The claim of sifu annoys me a little. I teach. I've been trying to understand the one art for two decades. I could call myself sifu but I prefer not to (I always feel a little uncomfortable when I called sifu). Maybe this is what it comes down to. It grates on me to see someone, anyone, claiming multiple high ranks, no matter how many. But it annoys me because I will see students with unreal expectations with regard to time and rank.


 

Yeah, I think I'm with ya on this.  

As far as the form goes, I guess I think especially in Tai Chi sometimes a teacher will give his student the nod to teach certain aspects of the art, even if full understanding of the complete art is still lacking.  The teacher might say, "OK, you seem to understand the Chen 24 Posture Form pretty well, you can teach THAT to some students if you like."  But I think there is an implied limit on that, and the 24 Form is far from the complete Chen system.  I personally don't consider this person a Chen Tai Chi Sifu.  He's still very much a student himself, with very limited teaching authority.

I sometimes see people list their resume online, and it seems to go on forever, you gotta keep scrolling down and down and down to see it all.  They like to list every underbelt rank ever achieved in any system, every seminar they ever took that is even vaguely connected to martial arts, even tho it never lead to anything further, and every trophy they ever won in any tournament, and every famous person they ever shook hands with.  It seems like listing every form and every partial art they have ever encountered is just resume padding.

I also understand what you are saying about being called "sifu".  I've been training with my sifu for just about 10 years now, and about 2 years ago or so he asked me to begin leading some of the students thru some basic tai chi sword work.  I think some of the students have begun to see me as a sifu in my own right, or at least an assistant sifu, but I don't feel like I merit that kind of title yet.  I'm just a student struggling with the sword myself, and teaching it helps me focus on the details, and gives my sifu another opportunity to guide me as well when he makes corrections.

Ah well.  It's all in how you present yourself.  I think some people want to grasp at the authority and dignity and status that being a teacher with high rank seems to imply.  I'm really in no hurry to make such a claim.


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## Steel Tiger

Flying Crane said:


> Ah well. It's all in how you present yourself. I think some people want to grasp at the authority and dignity and status that being a teacher with high rank seems to imply. I'm really in no hurry to make such a claim.


 
I think this is the crux of the matter.


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## jus_dann

nice job!, very well put.
straight to the deep end if you may LOL



exile said:


> Big question. I've lived my whole professional life in a bitterly hierarchical system, the academic world of big research universities, and I've noticed some scary parallels to the MA world, which might supply at least part of the answer.
> 
> If you look at academics, the reason they perceive high rank the way they do is not really salary, or reputation. You don't get that much of a financial kick upward going from Associate to Full Professor, for example. And your reputation in the field is only indirectly associated with your formal rank. It's based much more on your `breakthrough' discoveries, the kind of thing you became known for, in many cases, _BEFORE_ you were promoted to Full. Nor is it simple academic survival: once you make Associate Professor, you typically have tenure and you're safe from harm. (You _earn_ that protection, mindit's extremely tough to get tenure and plenty of Assistant Profs don't, in the end). So why do people obsessively pursue that rank? (and I speak as one who knows first hand just how obsessive it is...)
> 
> The answer is I think applicable not just to the university but to the MA world as well. It's this: when you join the university as a graduate student, you are socialized into a system which does not regard you as fully human; you have to earn treatment as a human being by advancement in the ranks. Get hired in a good dept. on a tenure-track line, that makes you 50% human (and you will be _treated_ by your tenured colleagues as half-human, make no mistake! ) Advance to tenure, and you're now 90% human... but not quite, eh? And that 10% difference is very conspicuous to someone who's grown up in the system. Advance to Full, and, well... now you're a human being. Bear in mind, if you get your first job at age 25, say, you may not make Full until you're in your early 40s, or later. So most of your adult life is learning the cultural currency of a particular ranking system that you've bought into by choosing that way of earning a livelihood, but obviously it's more than that: it's your life-culture, your worldview. I think something similar is going on in the MAs.
> 
> Think of a black belt as a Ph.D.; at this point, you're in a sense licensed to explore on your own. You have the basic skills, but still have a reputation to develop if you want respect in that world. And for a lot of people, that kind of respect is just as important as the respect young academics hope for from their peers or senior colleagues. The more you advance in rank, the more you're treated with respect, the more `human' you are. For people who have identified their `life-world' as that of the MAs, gaining that level of respect is probably just as important as it is for a new young faculty member to get acknowledgement of their worth from their older, now comfortably established senior colleagues who have proven themselves through decades of academic combat. I think that _that_ is what the constant pursuit of rank in the MAs is all about.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never understood that. But I think some people are biomechanical geniuses, in the same way that certain people launch careers as solo musicians when their age is still in single digits: they're prodigies. They were born to do MAs, and for them, it's like a sponge sucking in water.


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## Yeti

stone_dragone said:


> I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.


You just have to know where to look! I'm "lucky" enough to live near a school where the head instructor claims the following:

8th Dan - TKD
8th Dan - Hapkido
8th Dan - Aikido
7th Dan - Judo

Personally, I think it's a load of :bs: but let him claim what he wants to claim. A little checking and it's easy to prove or disprove. It's an ufortunate reality / marketing gimmick. Some folks are impressed by that while others are not. Me?...not so much.


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## Flying Crane

there is one thing I always find really funny, and yes, I have actually seen this on websites.

When people list their immensely padded resumes, 8th dan this, 7th dan that, 14th dan the other (many of which are arts that they themselves have "founded"), then, tucked away amongst all those impressively high Dan Grades, there will be "Yellow Belt in Tae Kwon Do", and "Orange Belt in Shotokan", and "Took A Weekend Seminar in Judo", maybe a couple others.  OK, now THAT'S impressive...


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## MJS

exile said:


> Big question. I've lived my whole professional life in a bitterly hierarchical system, the academic world of big research universities, and I've noticed some scary parallels to the MA world, which might supply at least part of the answer.
> 
> If you look at academics, the reason they perceive high rank the way they do is not really salary, or reputation. You don't get that much of a financial kick upward going from Associate to Full Professor, for example. And your reputation in the field is only indirectly associated with your formal rank. It's based much more on your `breakthrough' discoveries, the kind of thing you became known for, in many cases, _BEFORE_ you were promoted to Full. Nor is it simple academic survival: once you make Associate Professor, you typically have tenure and you're safe from harm. (You _earn_ that protection, mindit's extremely tough to get tenure and plenty of Assistant Profs don't, in the end). So why do people obsessively pursue that rank? (and I speak as one who knows first hand just how obsessive it is...)
> 
> The answer is I think applicable not just to the university but to the MA world as well. It's this: when you join the university as a graduate student, you are socialized into a system which does not regard you as fully human; you have to earn treatment as a human being by advancement in the ranks. Get hired in a good dept. on a tenure-track line, that makes you 50% human (and you will be _treated_ by your tenured colleagues as half-human, make no mistake! ) Advance to tenure, and you're now 90% human... but not quite, eh? And that 10% difference is very conspicuous to someone who's grown up in the system. Advance to Full, and, well... now you're a human being. Bear in mind, if you get your first job at age 25, say, you may not make Full until you're in your early 40s, or later. So most of your adult life is learning the cultural currency of a particular ranking system that you've bought into by choosing that way of earning a livelihood, but obviously it's more than that: it's your life-culture, your worldview. I think something similar is going on in the MAs.
> 
> Think of a black belt as a Ph.D.; at this point, you're in a sense licensed to explore on your own. You have the basic skills, but still have a reputation to develop if you want respect in that world. And for a lot of people, that kind of respect is just as important as the respect young academics hope for from their peers or senior colleagues. The more you advance in rank, the more you're treated with respect, the more `human' you are. For people who have identified their `life-world' as that of the MAs, gaining that level of respect is probably just as important as it is for a new young faculty member to get acknowledgement of their worth from their older, now comfortably established senior colleagues who have proven themselves through decades of academic combat. I think that _that_ is what the constant pursuit of rank in the MAs is all about.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never understood that. But I think some people are biomechanical geniuses, in the same way that certain people launch careers as solo musicians when their age is still in single digits: they're prodigies. They were born to do MAs, and for them, it's like a sponge sucking in water.


 

You certainly raise some interesting and very good points.  One paragraph in particular that really caught my eye was the 4th one down.  In a way, IMHO, I think this goes hand in hand with the respect thread I started a while back.  It also, IMO, falls into the black belt syndrome, that trap that many seem to fall into.  For some reason, when people put on that belt, they think that its an automatic sign that people a) need to respect you, b) people should respect you and c) that by having X number of stripes and/or rank, that it'll mean that people will view you differently.  

I still stand by my motto of:  Impress me with your skill, not with the number of arts or stripes that you have.


----------



## MJS

Danjo said:


> *I agree. I think this is the sort of thing people are talking about here:*
> 
> http://www.kenpojoe.com/
> 
> "Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
> 8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
> 1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
> SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
> SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
> INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
> World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
> [*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "
> 
> *That's a lot of rank to have attained with only one of them listed as honorary.*


 
Well, I wasn't going to mention any names, but....yes, this sums it up nicely.:ultracool


----------



## Seabrook

MJS said:


> The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?
> 
> IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
While my primary focus has always been Kenpo, I also have black belts in Black Dragon System Kung Fu, Modern Arnis, and Shorinji-Ryu Karate. 

Is it physically possible? You bet, but it takes a LOT of work. At this point in my life, being married, having two daughters, and a very busy schedule, most of my focus is on American Kenpo and Kung Fu.


----------



## Yeti

Flying Crane said:


> there is one thing I always find really funny, and yes, I have actually seen this on websites.
> 
> When people list their immensely padded resumes, 8th dan this, 7th dan that, 14th dan the other (many of which are arts that they themselves have "founded"), then, tucked away amongst all those impressively high Dan Grades, there will be "Yellow Belt in Tae Kwon Do", and "Orange Belt in Shotokan", and "Took A Weekend Seminar in Judo", maybe a couple others. OK, now THAT'S impressive...


That is SO true!! LOL!


----------



## Seabrook

Danjo said:


> *I agree. I think this is the sort of thing people are talking about here:*
> 
> http://www.kenpojoe.com/
> 
> "Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
> 8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
> 1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
> SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
> SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
> INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
> World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
> [*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "
> 
> *That's a lot of rank to have attained with only one of them listed as honorary.*


 
That is just crazy in my opinion.

And for the record, as per my above post, I hold 1st degree black belts in Kung Fu (1994), Modern Arnis (1991), and Shorinji-Ryu Karate (2001), and I am no longer seeking rank in these systems as I don't have the time nor the desire for higher rank. 

My 6th Degree is in American Kenpo Karate.


----------



## Seabrook

PatMunk said:


> I have to agree with you Danjo on this ... Claiming multiple high ranks only serves to feed the Ego of the person. It takes a lifetime to master a martial arts system.
> 
> I also would listen to someone who has high rank in one system more than someone who claims high rank in multiple systems.


 
Great point Pat.

I concur 100%.


----------



## DavidCC

Yeti said:


> You just have to know where to look! I'm "lucky" enough to live near a school where the head instructor claims the following:
> 
> 8th Dan - TKD
> 8th Dan - Hapkido
> 8th Dan - Aikido
> 7th Dan - Judo
> 
> Personally, I think it's a load of :bs: but let him claim what he wants to claim. A little checking and it's easy to prove or disprove. It's an ufortunate reality / marketing gimmick. Some folks are impressed by that while others are not. Me?...not so much.


 
I met a guy recently, he told me he was a 9th Dan in Judo.  I was, honestly, skeptical.  He seemed very nice and clearly as far I could tell was very good at Judo so I did my best to learn what he was showing me and we had a good time.  I went home and looked up the patches on his gi and sure enough it was the legit international judo organization and he was mentioned several times!  I found out that Judo ranks are very objective at that level: number of competitions, medals, and number of students who have x number of competition wins etc.  But they didn;t have a list of recognized members and ranks, not for free.  You can get it but there is a small fee and it is snail mail I think.


----------



## tellner

Let's be real here. Consider Judo which invented the Kyu/Dan system. There have only been 15. Three of them (most ever) were promoted last year. When Kyozu Mifune died in 1965 he was the only Judan in the system. When you look at films of people like him and Toshiro Daigo you realize that almost nobody  is able to grasp the subtleties of what they're seeing there. And the level of skill they display in one art? There's a significant lag for the light to get from there to where these self-styled multi-style "masters" stand on their best days. 

People like that are real masters. Most of us are barely apprentices, and there are damned few journeymen anymore. 

That's from a lifetime of dedication to one art. 

Nothing else really needs to be said.


----------



## KempoShaun

Fellow Martial Artists, my name is Shaun Seifer and I have been training in the martial arts for over 25 years, and as a student of Mr. Rebelo since 1996 or 97.  In the 11 years I have worked with Joe, he weekly teaches private lessons in Kobujutsu, Shaolin Kempo (Chaun fa/Karazenpo), EPAKK, TAI Kenpo, 3 separate sub styles of Nindo Ryu, Tai Chuan Tao, Taekwondo and 3 Tai Chi Forms (Wu's abstract, Yang long form and Chen style, after learning those he also teaches about 10 Tai Chi weapon forms).  Now, let me reiterate that this is what he teaches AT LEAST once a week, and in private lessons, where it is much harder to teach, if, as some of you are suggesting, he didn't truly hold the listed ranks.  In addition, Mr. Rebelo teaches seminars worldwide and is often used by the heads of several different arts (My art included), as a technical adviser.  One of the things that always amazes me about Joe is that he'll cross reference any and all of the arts and transition into another one without even a blink.  This is a man who truly knows his stuff.  Mr Rebelo has numerous videos on youtube of him teaching or training in all of the listed arts AT THE SAME TIME, not like some people who go and get a yellow belt here and a green belt here and then decide they are masters.  The youtube vids, which are easy to find by using the keyword KENPOJOE or Joe Rebelo, number around the double digit area right now, with hope of having about a hundred up by the beginning of next year.  In addition, Mr. Rebelo has, for the last 18 years, been the host of "Martial Arts Today", which is featured on television stations across Massachusetts.  He also has about 10 instructional videos out (I was featured in the Han Suki video getting beat up with the applications of the kata!).  Insofar as his Tai Chi, I believe it was mentioned that he may know the forms, but not the application (or something like that), well let me tell you, Tai Chi was the most recent art I took up under Sifu Rebelo, seeing as I've been ill for quite a while, and please believe me when I say, he knows the applications (Chin-na, Chuan Fa and Dim mak) and teaches the first two very well, and makes his students show the application for each move to be advanced to the next form.  As I write this, from my bed, as I'm severely ill, my one wish was that I could be in New Bedford tomorrow to celebrate my instructor and very good friend's birthday, which will mark his 49th (forty ninth) year in the Martial Arts.  In 1996, when I first met Joe in the Martial Arts chat room on AOL, I was extremely skeptical about all his claims to rank, and even after I decided to give him a shot and train exclusively under him, would try and catch him off guard and ask to see a Bagua form here, or a Mantis technique there.  I, as well as many from the old MAF clique quickly learned that he wasn't bragging, boasting or inflating his own ego, he was simply one in a million.  I have, over the last 11 years, become accustom to going to seminars or tournaments and wind up listening to Joe give a lecture on some obscure form of Mongolian mud wrestling, or how a Klingon Bat'leth can be put to use in dance of death (or some other EPAK reference he'll be mad at me for making fun of), and he ALWAYS has an open door policy that when he is at his studio, and isn't teaching, anyone is welcome to come in and question his credentials and he will demonstrate anything from any of the arts in his resume.  It has happened, and the person who came to criticize most times ends up deciding to train with Joe.  Now I know this has been a long rant, but I want people to understand, I don't consider myself an expert in the Martial Arts, just someone who wants to learn.  Like most of you, seeing Joe's resume makes it seem like a load of BS, but if you believe only one thing I type here today, let it be that "Joe Rebelo is not like the millions of other ********* con artists claiming multiple high ranks to make himself feel good, this guy is for real".  So, until you walk through the doors to Rebelo's Kenpo Karate studio, and see Mr. Rebelo perform the material required for any of the ranks he has, or before you talk to the heads of the systems who promoted him to the ranks he holds, for once, lets not immediately assume "Guilty until proven innocent", and let Mr. Rebelo's posts (feel free to look through the forum, there are quite a few), videos (youtube and instructional) and knowledge (Mr. Rebelo invites people to visit him at his school) speak for themselves, not someone who holds a grudge against Joe putting him down, or someone like myself, who couldn't believe anyone could hold so many high ranks in so many arts until I tested him.  He's a great instructor, and an even better friend, I just wish everyone could get to train under him at some point.  Thank you, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOE!!!!!


----------



## jks9199

As a loose rule, I'll buy someone having several lower-dan or equivalent rankings.  For example, my partner has a TKD black belt, as well as her Bando black belt.  I know other people with 3 or 4 black belts, but they're all 1st or 2nd degree.  That's easy to buy, especially since there are legit programs in some styles that will (with a LOT of hard work; that's about all you're doing) let you earn a reputable black belt in a year or so.  

It's even easier to buy when they're kindred arts, like maybe Shotokan and TKD or TKD and hapkido just to name a couple off the top of my head.  Where I personally get skeptical is when people claim mid to high level dan rankings in very different styles, like maybe muay thai and aikido (deliberately reaching for a pairing that is as night & day as I can think of).  I also get skeptical when someone claims mid to high level rankings in more than one (and often, even in one), and is younger than I am.  I've seen 5th/6th degree black belts who weren't old enough to drink in the US...  I can't help but be skeptical of that!  

But, it really comes down to a simple question:  Do you trust what the guy is teaching you?  Because it's really impossible to compare ranks across styles, or even within them sometimes!


----------



## Danjo

KempoShaun said:


> Fellow Martial Artists, my name is Shaun Seifer and I have been training in the martial arts for over 25 years, and as a student of Mr. Rebelo since 1996 or 97. In the 11 years I have worked with Joe, he weekly teaches private lessons in Kobujutsu, Shaolin Kempo (Chaun fa/Karazenpo), EPAKK, TAI Kenpo, 3 separate sub styles of Nindo Ryu, Tai Chuan Tao, Taekwondo and 3 Tai Chi Forms (Wu's abstract, Yang long form and Chen style, after learning those he also teaches about 10 Tai Chi weapon forms). Now, let me reiterate that this is what he teaches AT LEAST once a week, and in private lessons, where it is much harder to teach, if, as some of you are suggesting, he didn't truly hold the listed ranks. In addition, Mr. Rebelo teaches seminars worldwide and is often used by the heads of several different arts (My art included), as a technical adviser. One of the things that always amazes me about Joe is that he'll cross reference any and all of the arts and transition into another one without even a blink. This is a man who truly knows his stuff. Mr Rebelo has numerous videos on youtube of him teaching or training in all of the listed arts AT THE SAME TIME, not like some people who go and get a yellow belt here and a green belt here and then decide they are masters. The youtube vids, which are easy to find by using the keyword KENPOJOE or Joe Rebelo, number around the double digit area right now, with hope of having about a hundred up by the beginning of next year. In addition, Mr. Rebelo has, for the last 18 years, been the host of "Martial Arts Today", which is featured on television stations across Massachusetts. He also has about 10 instructional videos out (I was featured in the Han Suki video getting beat up with the applications of the kata!). Insofar as his Tai Chi, I believe it was mentioned that he may know the forms, but not the application (or something like that), well let me tell you, Tai Chi was the most recent art I took up under Sifu Rebelo, seeing as I've been ill for quite a while, and please believe me when I say, he knows the applications (Chin-na, Chuan Fa and Dim mak) and teaches the first two very well, and makes his students show the application for each move to be advanced to the next form. As I write this, from my bed, as I'm severely ill, my one wish was that I could be in New Bedford tomorrow to celebrate my instructor and very good friend's birthday, which will mark his 49th (forty ninth) year in the Martial Arts. In 1996, when I first met Joe in the Martial Arts chat room on AOL, I was extremely skeptical about all his claims to rank, and even after I decided to give him a shot and train exclusively under him, would try and catch him off guard and ask to see a Bagua form here, or a Mantis technique there. I, as well as many from the old MAF clique quickly learned that he wasn't bragging, boasting or inflating his own ego, he was simply one in a million. I have, over the last 11 years, become accustom to going to seminars or tournaments and wind up listening to Joe give a lecture on some obscure form of Mongolian mud wrestling, or how a Klingon Bat'leth can be put to use in dance of death (or some other EPAK reference he'll be mad at me for making fun of), and he ALWAYS has an open door policy that when he is at his studio, and isn't teaching, anyone is welcome to come in and question his credentials and he will demonstrate anything from any of the arts in his resume. It has happened, and the person who came to criticize most times ends up deciding to train with Joe. Now I know this has been a long rant, but I want people to understand, I don't consider myself an expert in the Martial Arts, just someone who wants to learn. Like most of you, seeing Joe's resume makes it seem like a load of BS, but if you believe only one thing I type here today, let it be that "Joe Rebelo is not like the millions of other ********* con artists claiming multiple high ranks to make himself feel good, this guy is for real". So, until you walk through the doors to Rebelo's Kenpo Karate studio, and see Mr. Rebelo perform the material required for any of the ranks he has, or before you talk to the heads of the systems who promoted him to the ranks he holds, for once, lets not immediately assume "Guilty until proven innocent", and let Mr. Rebelo's posts (feel free to look through the forum, there are quite a few), videos (youtube and instructional) and knowledge (Mr. Rebelo invites people to visit him at his school) speak for themselves, not someone who holds a grudge against Joe putting him down, or someone like myself, who couldn't believe anyone could hold so many high ranks in so many arts until I tested him. He's a great instructor, and an even better friend, I just wish everyone could get to train under him at some point. Thank you, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOE!!!!!


 

Sigh.

If someone had a 1st degree in Kenpo and one in Judo and one in Aikido. He would, presumably, look like a talented martial artist. If he worked at integrating those disciplines together for several years and added some new tricks here and there, I'm sure he would look impressive to most people watching. However, that's a far cry from what we're talking about here in terms of high rank in all of the listed arts.

The Chinese used to call those that travelled around from village to village performing tricks like breaking and Iron Palm etc. "Village Boxers." They were showmen who would sell booklets and pamphlets to the country bumpkins for a few yen and move on to the next village. When they would see someone else with a trick they didn't have, they'd adopt it to their own skill-set so that the next time they travelled through that area they'd have something new to show.

Very often these Village Boxers would claim high rank and mastery of various forms of Kung Fu and have impressive lineages that they'd rattle off. They would often work in concert with other village boxers and back up each other's stories to lend legitimacy to themselves.

The real masters, i.e., those that dedicated themselves to serious and long study of an art,  merely shook their heads at them and laughed when they would come through. The village boxers liked to avoid confrontations with the real masters and would only challenge untrained bumpkins or else _plants_ in the audience.

It's a very old game.

I'm not saying that Mr. Rebelo is one of these modern day village boxers, but his massive claims make him appear to be just that.


----------



## KempoShaun

people who decide to judge people by reading words, well, who are we to judge someone without ever working with them?  "*God does not propose to judge a man until his life is over. Why should you and I?"*  Also, I may not be a great Martial Artist, but if he were just blending styles, trust me, I'd know.  The arts run 3 generations in my family, I'm not going to be awed by a jack of all trades, master of none.  Why not come up to Massachusetts for a weekend Danjo?  I'm not sure where you are located, but you could work with Joe, and I'd even find a way, in my diminished capacity, to get down to New Bedford, we'd have a great time. All I'm asking is, is it not possible, with all the strange things that happen in the world, that a few of these people who claim high ranks in multiple systems who aren't fakes? I know for a fact that there is at least one.


----------



## MJS

I'll start off by saying that I didn't start this thread to bash anyone.  I mentioned no names in my initial post, but obviously those who are around the forums, can put two and two together.  

Many times, we hear people ask, "How is it possible to train in more than one art?"  It is possible and speaking only for myself, I do it because I enjoy the arts that I train in.  I don't do it to impress anyone, and I certainly don't do it for the rank.  As I said earlier, one of the arts I train in, I have no desire to test for rank.  For the amount of time I've put into training in Arnis, one would think that I'd be in the black belt ranks.  Not the case though, as I'm still Brown.  

So, to someone who never trained before or someone who is very new to the arts, having X number of arts, high rank, pictures of themselves with 20 different Masters, or a wall full of awards and trophies, sure that'll look impressive.  However, take someone who has been around a while, show them the same scenario and I'd bet some sort of red flag or question would arise.  

Can all this be accomplished?  I don't know, but one would have to wonder how one would find the time to do all this, at what point in life one would have to start training to accomplish this.  Frankly, I'm not fond of seeing an 8yo 2nd degree black belt, but is it realistic to have them be a 7th at age 18?  I'm sure there are time frames for each level.  So, that being said, is it realistic or possible to have high rank in 9 arts, and a 1st degree in 5?


----------



## exile

MJS said:


> One paragraph in particular that really caught my eye was the 4th one down.  In a way, IMHO, I think this goes hand in hand with the respect thread I started a while back.  It also, IMO, falls into the black belt syndrome, that trap that many seem to fall into.  *For some reason, when people put on that belt, they think that its an automatic sign that people a) need to respect you, b) people should respect you and c) that by having X number of stripes and/or rank, that it'll mean that people will view you differently. *



I meant to answer this earlier, Mike, but my TKD class, visiting relative from British Columbia, and a host of other random factors completely derailed my plans, so here goes. (I have a feeling that we actually have two different, though somewhat related, discussions running at the same timer here, but as long as we can keep it going, that's probably OK...)

The syndrome you describe in connection with new black belts is very obvious with a lot of new Ph.D.s also, but it doesn't last very long as a rule! What happens is that people spend a good many years of their youth mastering the basics, finding an interesting research problem at the frontiers of knowledge, making a certain amount of progress towards a solution, and enjoying about a year or so of thinking of themselves as the leading edge of knowledge in that field. But within another year or two, there's a whole crop of hot new talents in the field getting _their_ Ph.D.s, who've absorbed the lessons of their predecessors (including those who were the hot new talent a couple of years previously) and are pushing on past them. You realize all of a suddent that _everyone_ in your peer group has a Ph.D., that it's not that big a deal, that it's a _starting_ place. Unless you're extremely gifted, a real prodigy, your own doctoral research will be, if not obsolete, then at best `part of the furniture' in a very short time, unless you get your butt in high gear to go well beyond what you had to do to get your doctorate. You simply do not have time to rest on your laurels. There are dozens of bright young scientists just like you, submitting their best work to the best journals, just as you are, and unless you hustle like crazy, they will pass you. What counts, once you get your Ph.D., is not your Ph.D., but your list of publications, your record of results&#8212;things you've discovered, solutions you've devised, that pass the hostile scrutiny of the toughest reviewers for those publications and give you one of the very few places in the table of contents of these journals of record, out of thousands of submissions, most of which are nixed. By the time you've been out of graduate school for a couple of years, you've pretty much forgotten you have that Ph.D.; all you think about is your latest manuscript, the last rejection letter you got, and whether you can fix the problems to a sufficient extent to get it accepted somewhere else. Content, not rank or degree hierarchy, rules here, and people learn humility the hard way. 



MJS said:


> I still stand by my motto of:  Impress me with your skill, not with the number of arts or stripes that you have.



Exactly, exactly. It corresponds to the fact that in the academic world of mathematics, for example, no one gives a rodent's posterior what rank you are; all they care about is, what theorems have you proved? Content, not form. And respect is extended to those who have real content to offer and can point to a glowing track record on their CVs, not people who've moved up the ranks with competent but maybe lacklustre performances and simply waited for advancement. 

The good side of all this is that respect is awarded for real quality. The bad side is, a lot of people who are good but not quite good enough get broken by the system. It's too bad, but it's kind of Darwinian: that's why the physics, the chemistry, the medicine, the theory of mental processes we have now are of a fundamentally different order than what we had in these areas three hundred years ago. You're suggesting that we apply a similar standard in the martial arts&#8212;respect is earned by knowledge and skill, not by the rank your dojo has awarded you; the rank is only there, presumably, because of what you know and what you can do, and it's the latter, therefore, that are the true bases for earning the respect of others. And I agree with this, 100%.


----------



## KempoShaun

MJS said:


> Well, I wasn't going to mention any names, but....yes, this sums it up nicely.:ultracool


 
Well, I'm glad nobody was singling anyone out here.  That being said, tomorrow will mark Mr. Rebelo's 49th year in the arts.  I don't know how people can gauge others without having trained with them personally, but hey, maybe that's just the way my family has done things for a few generations and we're wrong to want to get on the mat with people before publicly berating them.  Anywho... I'm sure Mr. Rebelo will be on at some point and post his own responses, so I'll leave you to your discussion.


----------



## Carol

KempoShaun said:


> Well, I'm glad nobody was singling anyone out here.  That being said, tomorrow will mark Mr. Rebelo's 49th year in the arts.  I don't know how people can gauge others without having trained with them personally, but hey, maybe that's just the way my family has done things for a few generations and we're wrong to want to get on the mat with people before publicly berating them.  Anywho... I'm sure Mr. Rebelo will be on at some point and post his own responses, so I'll leave you to your discussion.



His 39th year in the arts Shaun, not 49th.


----------



## MJS

KempoShaun said:


> Well, I'm glad nobody was singling anyone out here. That being said, tomorrow will mark Mr. Rebelo's 49th year in the arts. I don't know how people can gauge others without having trained with them personally, but hey, maybe that's just the way my family has done things for a few generations and we're wrong to want to get on the mat with people before publicly berating them. Anywho... I'm sure Mr. Rebelo will be on at some point and post his own responses, so I'll leave you to your discussion.


 
Well, the main point of this thread was to talk about high rank and multiple arts, not ones skill per se, although that does factor in and has factored in during some of the posts.  I have not worked with Mr. Rebelo, so I can't comment on his skill.  Something I don't like to do, is use a video clip to base my opinion of someones skill, but thats another thread.   However, what we do have, is a visual list of rank and arts, so that is what the focus is, IMHO.  

Additionally, I'll state again, that my intention was not to single Mr. Rebelo out.  I'm sure I can go online and research any number of Martial Artists and their rank.  If you read my initial post, I mentioned no names.


----------



## RevIV

I have trained with Mr. Rebello, and I have known him for many years.  He will candidly talk of his bio sometimes but not in a bragging manner.  Fact is, he knows his stuff.  He runs a small school, i do not know how many full time students he has.  I know one thing that is being left out.  Mr. Rebello has a photographic memory.  It usually only takes him one time to see a form and he can do it, ask him years later and after only a few minutes of thinking of it he can perform the form.  This can truly help in the memorization part of the material.  Go and knock him if you want, but wish you knew half of his material.  I am not a student of Joe's, i've worked with him at seminars and once privatley on a spear form behind an old church on a hot day.  He is a kind person with a huge heart so be careful of your words and actions cuz Karma is a *****.
In Peace,
Jesse


----------



## Danjo

RevIV said:


> I have trained with Mr. Rebello, and I have known him for many years. He will candidly talk of his bio sometimes but not in a bragging manner. Fact is, he knows his stuff. He runs a small school, i do not know how many full time students he has. I know one thing that is being left out. Mr. Rebello has a photographic memory. It usually only takes him one time to see a form and he can do it, ask him years later and after only a few minutes of thinking of it he can perform the form. This can truly help in the memorization part of the material. Go and knock him if you want, but wish you knew half of his material. I am not a student of Joe's, i've worked with him at seminars and once privatley on a spear form behind an old church on a hot day. He is a kind person with a huge heart so be careful of your words and actions cuz Karma is a *****.
> In Peace,
> Jesse


 
Well, like I said before, he might "Know his stuff" in one sense, but that doesn't mean that he (or anyone else that does this) has earned that many high ranks in that many arts legitimately by old school standards. 

In one way it could be argued that if someone of high rank in a given art gives you rank in that art, then it's legitimate. In that sense, I am sure that Mr. Rebelo has his rank legitimately (though some have argued about Dave German's posthumous promotion of him and his wearing of an 8th degree belt with a Parker patch). 

However, in the sense that most of us understand rank, i.e., one trains for years to gain a deeper and greater understanding of a given art by dedicating untold hours of blood sweat and tears and teaching, I simply don't see how it's possible for one person to get that highly ranked in that many arts. At some point these have to be recognized as honorary promotions or rank recognitions rather than actual earned rank.


----------



## MJS

RevIV said:


> I have trained with Mr. Rebello, and I have known him for many years. He will candidly talk of his bio sometimes but not in a bragging manner. Fact is, he knows his stuff. He runs a small school, i do not know how many full time students he has. I know one thing that is being left out. Mr. Rebello has a photographic memory. It usually only takes him one time to see a form and he can do it, ask him years later and after only a few minutes of thinking of it he can perform the form. This can truly help in the memorization part of the material. Go and knock him if you want, but wish you knew half of his material. I am not a student of Joe's, i've worked with him at seminars and once privatley on a spear form behind an old church on a hot day. He is a kind person with a huge heart so be careful of your words and actions cuz Karma is a *****.
> In Peace,
> Jesse


 
Hey Jesse,

As I said in a few other posts, my intention was broad, and not specifically pointing to one person.  I'm sure any of us can search the net and find people with high claims.  I can't and won't speak for Joes skill as I have not seen him live.  IMHO, I think youtube, while its a source for many things, is hard to form an accurate picture of someone.  Way too many people use that or what they hear from others, to form an opinion.  

One of my questions that I had asked earlier and think is important to the discussion is when I said this:



MJS said:


> Can all this be accomplished? I don't know, but one would have to wonder how one would find the time to do all this, at what point in life one would have to start training to accomplish this. Frankly, I'm not fond of seeing an 8yo 2nd degree black belt, but is it realistic to have them be a 7th at age 18? I'm sure there are time frames for each level. So, that being said, is it realistic or possible to have high rank in 9 arts, and a 1st degree in 5?


 
If someone starts at a young age, and trains in a few different arts, it is possible ot attain a high rank, but how are they going to be viewed?  Maybe it doesnt bother them, but it would bother me, if I was walking around with 7 stripes on my belt and I was only 25.  

As I've said before...impress me with you skill, not your rank.  I've been training since I was 12.  I'm going to be 34 on the 11th of this month.  I'm a 3rd degree black belt.  Probably should at least be 4th, maybe 5th by now.  Doesn't matter to me though.  

In closing, and I find myself repeating myself, but I think its necessary.  My intentions were to discuss high rank and multiple arts.  

Mike


----------



## Danjo

RevIV said:


> He is a kind person with a huge heart so be careful of your words and actions cuz Karma is a *****.
> In Peace,
> Jesse


 
Well, I never said he wasn't a kind person with a huge heart. I'm also not worried about Karma not being a Hindu. I believe that we reap what we sow and that you can tell a tree by it's fruit.


----------



## Danjo

MJS said:


> Hey Jesse,
> 
> As I said in a few other posts, my intention was broad, and not specifically pointing to one person. I'm sure any of us can search the net and find people with high claims. Mike


 
Exactly. They are all over the place. Here's one that'd been discussed at length on an old thread. I just used Rebelo as an example.:


SIJO BOB SMITH​
10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Kung Fu
10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chuan Fa "Chinese Kenpo"
10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chin Na
8th Degree Black Belt Jujitsu
8th Degree Black Belt Atemi Do
6th Degree Black Belt Nindo Ryu Gendai Taijutsu
5th Degree Black Belt in Kenpo from Grandmaster Robert Hoe
Senior technical advisor for Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
Roju Council of Elders "Nindo Ryu International"
Member of Budokan America Council of Masters
Member of the International Black Belt Organization's Grandmaster Council


----------



## Flying Crane

I think there are actually two separate but related topics creeping into the discussion here.

One is actual rank, and the other is actual skill, and the two may or may not go together.

I see a lot of people who are perhaps quite skilled, but I don't always feel that alone merits high rank.  Sometimes these people are young talent and just haven't been around long enough to develop a deeper wisdom to justify high rank.  I guess that's just a personal opinion of my own.  It's a bit of a nebulous concept, but in my mind it is very important.

So someone may really know his stuff, be very talented and skilled, but other factors just don't support high rank, at least not yet.  

And I think this is compounded when multiple arts and multiple high ranks come into the picture.

In relating this to the discussion about Mr. Rebelo, I don't know the guy and I am not in a position to make a judgement over him.  But scrutinizing his list of ranking isn't necessarily the same thing as condeming him as a charlatan, no-talent martial artist.  He could very well be every bit as skilled as his supporters claim he is.  But I can also understand looking at his long list of ranks and raising an eyebrow over it.


----------



## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> 10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Kung Fu
> 10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chuan Fa "Chinese Kenpo"
> 10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chin Na


 
See, this kind of thing is really weird because these items look like different aspects of the same thing.  Does someone REALLY need three 10th Dans in what is actually one art?  If that is what this is, then it is truly blatant resume padding.


----------



## KempoShaun

I see my point was completely missed.  My final statement is that, as I said in my prior posts, why judge someone without training with them?  Oh well, I'm out of this one...  be good people 

P.s. Thanks for the correction Carol!  My bad!


----------



## SL4Drew

This is something, until now, I hadn't given too much thought. Although, it may be possible to climb your way through the ranks and earn a black belt in several systems, I seriously doubt anyone could do that with high ranks. To me, the ability one has in their core style is the real measure. So, I think there are legitimate reasons that someone might receive high ranks from several people/places. 

Foremost, is it can represent that other masters or seniors of that art recognize your talent and knowledge. For example, it may be that one FMA teacher is so skilled that he has been recognized by several other varieties of FMAs. The same thing can happen in Jujitsu, Aikido, or Karate. If you trace Kenpo just to Chow, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of "Kenpo flavors." Conceptually, there is a lot of overlap. (Yes, I know YOUR Kenpo is different from the rest.) So, isn't it really that much of a stretch for someone to obtain a high rank in another and then be recognized by the cousins as a skilled-fellow Kenpoist?

So, in my mind if you have legitimately achieved a high rank (with real skill and knowledge) in one style it is possible your peers may recognize your skill by awarding you rank in their style. I think someone suggested that these were sort-of honorary degrees. I think that is a good analogy. It represents superior accomplishment. I don't think anyone that gives out these ranks really expects the recipient to start teaching that style. After all, if you are highly regarded in your own art why would you suddenly drop it to teach another? If you were legit, you wouldn't. 

After you are recognized the question is what to do you with the recognition. If you are putting it on your letterhead or business cards, you're probably taking it too far. (I'm looking at you Stephan Colbert, D.F.A.) But if you are trying to entice students to you or make a little green, then putting on a website seems OK to me. Or even hanging the certificates around the school seems fine. The first-time-guy-off-the street may think, 'wow, I can learn all this here.' Although he's wrong, if the recognition is legitimate, no one is injured by his mistake. He got a good instructor that is well respected, sounds like a win. 

Unless the person is a complete fraud, seeking certificate after certificate without any competence, I'm not sure why we care. There seemed to be some sense that if you where a rank you are somehow constrained to teach only the material that got you that rank and to do otherwise is disrespectful or fraudulent. First, this is based on the erroneous premise that all of Kenpo brand X is the same. And I don't see how knowledge can be so assigned. If I show someone how to pass a guard while wearing Kenpo patches and black belt, but don't have a black in Jujitsu, then I'm being dishonest?!? Does Jeff Speakman have to take off the rank Mr. Parker awarded him because he's doing Kenpo 5.0? Or how about Chuck Sullivan and his IKCA system? Can't showing somebody how you do the technique be enough for others judge if it's crap or not? Do you have to start every lesson or demo with a disclaimer? 

I'm reminded of the saying "Just because the stripes show, doesn't mean you know."


----------



## RevIV

Danjo said:


> Well, like I said before, he might "Know his stuff" in one sense, but that doesn't mean that he (or anyone else that does this) has earned that many high ranks in that many arts legitimately by old school standards.
> 
> In one way it could be argued that if someone of high rank in a given art gives you rank in that art, then it's legitimate. In that sense, I am sure that Mr. Rebelo has his rank legitimately (though some have argued about Dave German's posthumous promotion of him and his wearing of an 8th degree belt with a Parker patch).
> 
> However, in the sense that most of us understand rank, i.e., one trains for years to gain a deeper and greater understanding of a given art by dedicating untold hours of blood sweat and tears and teaching, I simply don't see how it's possible for one person to get that highly ranked in that many arts. At some point these have to be recognized as honorary promotions or rank recognitions rather than actual earned rank.


 
Simply, Yes..  Old school standards white to black, impossible in 4 lifetimes to have this high of ranking.  As for the David German 8th, if that is what GM German wanted then it should be done as to his wishes.  each person is who he is, and what they feel needs to be expressed in their bio's is up to them.   It is the students who need to decide.  Last night i was talking to the advanced class about how little the public really knows of the Arts.  I would say 95% of every person who comes into the dojo for the first time has no idea that there is even rankings above black belt.
Jesse


----------



## RevIV

I like Mr. Rebelo and i will stick up for him until he comes on here.  But i think i need to make something clear.  I do not agree with the bio padding.  If you are recognized by others be proud of that but dont flaunt it.  I have been with my original instructor since I was 12/13 yrs old.  This year will mark his 47th yr in the arts.  He wears a 6th dan.  In his bio he does not speak of his other ranks even though he holds them.  This man has tried to teach me humility and i do my best to make him proud (does not happen all the time and he makes me aware of it).  And i try to pass it to my students to the best of my ability.  Multiple ranks/high ranks/ all relative.  I know people in New England in which I sar on the testing board when they recieved their black belts --now they out rank me.  Hard to chew, but i know what is right to me.
Jesse


----------



## Flying Crane

RevIV said:


> This year will mark his 47th yr in the arts. He wears a 6th dan.
> Jesse


 
See, alluding to my earlier post, I think this is easier to stomach.  Just at first glance I am much more willing to accept a 6th dan who has 47 years in the arts, than I can accept a young 6th dan with something like 20 years in.


----------



## stone_dragone

KempoShaun said:


> I see my point was completely missed. My final statement is that, as I said in my prior posts, why judge someone without training with them? Oh well, I'm out of this one... be good people
> 
> P.s. Thanks for the correction Carol! My bad!


 
I'm sure that neither offence nor disrespect were meant in any personal manner, nor was your instructor's skill ever questioned.

What is brought to discussion is his *seemingly *over-impressive resume.  When I look at the list, I see several ranks within what appears to be the same system (Nindo Ryu).  This lends itself to the certainly unintentional appearance of padding.


----------



## MJS

KempoShaun said:


> I see my point was completely missed. My final statement is that, as I said in my prior posts, why judge someone without training with them? Oh well, I'm out of this one... be good people
> 
> P.s. Thanks for the correction Carol! My bad!


 
Apparently my comments were missed as well.  Once again, I'll say this thread was not started to talk specifically about Joe Rebello.  It was started to talk about people with high rank in many arts.  Again Shaun, it shouldn't take long to search the net to see others with 8th degrees in multiple arts.


----------



## MJS

KempoShaun said:


> Well, I'm glad nobody was singling anyone out here. That being said, tomorrow will mark Mr. Rebelo's *49th year in the arts.* I don't know how people can gauge others without having trained with them personally, but hey, maybe that's just the way my family has done things for a few generations and we're wrong to want to get on the mat with people before publicly berating them. Anywho... I'm sure Mr. Rebelo will be on at some point and post his own responses, so I'll leave you to your discussion.


 


Carol Kaur said:


> His *39th year* in the arts Shaun, not 49th.


 


RevIV said:


> I like Mr. Rebelo and i will stick up for him until he comes on here. But i think i need to make something clear. I do not agree with the bio padding. If you are recognized by others be proud of that but dont flaunt it. I have been with my original instructor since I was 12/13 yrs old. This year will mark his *47th yr in the arts.* He wears a 6th dan. In his bio he does not speak of his other ranks even though he holds them. This man has tried to teach me humility and i do my best to make him proud (does not happen all the time and he makes me aware of it). And i try to pass it to my students to the best of my ability. Multiple ranks/high ranks/ all relative. I know people in New England in which I sar on the testing board when they recieved their black belts --now they out rank me. Hard to chew, but i know what is right to me.
> Jesse


 

Ok..math wasn't my best subject, but I see some differences here.  Additionally, I saw this:



> This is news item #4
> 
> *October 3, 2006- New Bedford, MA: *
> 
> Mr. Rebelo celebrated his *45th Birthday & his 38th year in the Martial Arts* with celebrations attended by students,relatives and fellow martial arts instructors. As he told the attendees "Elvis Preseley once told Ed Parker "It's my friends who made me who I am today." and Mr. Rebelo added "...and truer words were never spoken". He then thanked all who had come to share his birthday and look forward to many more years of learning and teaching the martial arts.


 
Now, maybe I'm just misunderstanding something, but some of these numbers don't add up.


----------



## Flying Crane

MJS said:


> Ok..math wasn't my best subject, but I see some differences here. Additionally, I saw this:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, maybe I'm just misunderstanding something, but some of these numbers don't add up.


 

It was my impression that RevIV trains with someone else, but knows Mr. Rebelo.  Perhaps he will jump in and clarify that.


----------



## MJS

Flying Crane said:


> It was my impression that RevIV trains with someone else, but knows Mr. Rebelo. Perhaps he will jump in and clarify that.


 
Like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding.  But it sure would be nice if someone clarified.


----------



## Carol

The clip quoted where Mr. Rebelo says he's celebrating his 38th yaer in the arts is dated October 3 2006 which was exactly one year ago today.  Today is October 3, 2007, one year later, this is Mr. Rebelo's 39th year in the arts.

But I thought this thread wasn't supposed to be specifically about Joe Rebelo?

Don't anyone go thinking about pink elephants....


----------



## MJS

SL4Drew said:


> This is something, until now, I hadn't given too much thought. Although, it may be possible to climb your way through the ranks and earn a black belt in several systems, I seriously doubt anyone could do that with high ranks. To me, the ability one has in their core style is the real measure. So, I think there are legitimate reasons that someone might receive high ranks from several people/places.
> 
> Foremost, is it can represent that other masters or seniors of that art recognize your talent and knowledge. For example, it may be that one FMA teacher is so skilled that he has been recognized by several other varieties of FMAs. The same thing can happen in Jujitsu, Aikido, or Karate. If you trace Kenpo just to Chow, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of "Kenpo flavors." Conceptually, there is a lot of overlap. (Yes, I know YOUR Kenpo is different from the rest.) So, isn't it really that much of a stretch for someone to obtain a high rank in another and then be recognized by the cousins as a skilled-fellow Kenpoist?
> 
> So, in my mind if you have legitimately achieved a high rank (with real skill and knowledge) in one style it is possible your peers may recognize your skill by awarding you rank in their style. I think someone suggested that these were sort-of honorary degrees. I think that is a good analogy. It represents superior accomplishment. I don't think anyone that gives out these ranks really expects the recipient to start teaching that style. After all, if you are highly regarded in your own art why would you suddenly drop it to teach another? If you were legit, you wouldn't.
> 
> After you are recognized the question is what to do you with the recognition. If you are putting it on your letterhead or business cards, you're probably taking it too far. (I'm looking at you Stephan Colbert, D.F.A.) But if you are trying to entice students to you or make a little green, then putting on a website seems OK to me. Or even hanging the certificates around the school seems fine. The first-time-guy-off-the street may think, 'wow, I can learn all this here.' Although he's wrong, if the recognition is legitimate, no one is injured by his mistake. He got a good instructor that is well respected, sounds like a win.
> 
> *Unless the person is a complete fraud, seeking certificate after certificate without any competence, I'm not sure why we care. There seemed to be some sense that if you where a rank you are somehow constrained to teach only the material that got you that rank and to do otherwise is disrespectful or fraudulent. First, this is based on the erroneous premise that all of Kenpo brand X is the same. And I don't see how knowledge can be so assigned. If I show someone how to pass a guard while wearing Kenpo patches and black belt, but don't have a black in Jujitsu, then I'm being dishonest?!? Does Jeff Speakman have to take off the rank Mr. Parker awarded him because he's doing Kenpo 5.0? Or how about Chuck Sullivan and his IKCA system? Can't showing somebody how you do the technique be enough for others judge if it's crap or not? Do you have to start every lesson or demo with a disclaimer? *
> 
> I'm reminded of the saying "Just because the stripes show, doesn't mean you know."


 
If I show a guard pass while wearing my 3rd degree belt in Kenpo, nothing wrong with that.  What would be wrong is if I claimed to be a 3rd degree in BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc.


----------



## MJS

Carol Kaur said:


> The clip quoted where Mr. Rebelo says he's celebrating his 38th yaer in the arts is dated October 3 2006 which was exactly one year ago today. Today is October 3, 2007, one year later, this is Mr. Rebelo's 39th year in the arts.
> 
> But I thought this thread wasn't supposed to be specifically about Joe Rebelo?
> 
> Don't anyone go thinking about pink elephants....


 
It was my intention to keep it this way, and yes, I'd like it to stay that way.  However, there are some people who seem to thrive on bringing Joes name into it.  I admit I answered their questions on the subject, but as I said, I'd like it to return to a discussion on high rank and multiple arts.

Mike


----------



## Flying Crane

SL4Drew said:


> To me, the ability one has in their core style is the real measure.


 
I think this comment has some real merit.  Altho one's "core style" may change as his exposure to different arts changes.  I know that while training in each of the arts that I seriously undertook, during that time I thought of little else and sort of figured I was done with the rest.  Then a few years later I changed my mind again...



> Foremost, is it can represent that other masters or seniors of that art recognize your talent and knowledge. For example, it may be that one FMA teacher is so skilled that he has been recognized by several other varieties of FMAs. The same thing can happen in Jujitsu, Aikido, or Karate. If you trace Kenpo just to Chow, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of "Kenpo flavors." Conceptually, there is a lot of overlap. (Yes, I know YOUR Kenpo is different from the rest.) So, isn't it really that much of a stretch for someone to obtain a high rank in another and then be recognized by the cousins as a skilled-fellow Kenpoist?
> 
> So, in my mind if you have legitimately achieved a high rank (with real skill and knowledge) in one style it is possible your peers may recognize your skill by awarding you rank in their style.


 
OK, now this is where I think it all becomes pointless.  If you have achieved justifiably high rank in your art, thru long years of hard training and dedication, what good does it do anyone for your peers to "recognize" your skill by giving you high rank in their arts?  You've already proven yourself within your own art.  Rank in other arts, even if good intentioned, is a misrepresentation.

If your peers from other arts want to recognize your achievements and skill and knowledge, well maybe they can just give you an "outstanding achiever" plaque or something at a dinner event with the local community.  But bestowing rank, even if recognzed as honorary, is just pointless in my opinion.  And I really don't understand why anyone would even accept it.  If I didn't study under someone, in their art, I would never accept rank from them for any reason.  What would I do with it?  What would it mean to me?  Absolutely nothing.


----------



## MJS

Flying Crane said:


> OK, now this is where I think it all becomes pointless. If you have achieved justifiably high rank in your art, thru long years of hard training and dedication, what good does it do anyone for your peers to "recognize" your skill by giving you high rank in their arts? You've already proven yourself within your own art. Rank in other arts, even if good intentioned, is a misrepresentation.
> 
> If your peers from other arts want to recognize your achievements and skill and knowledge, well maybe they can just give you an "outstanding achiever" plaque or something at a dinner event with the local community. But bestowing rank, even if recognzed as honorary, is just pointless in my opinion. And I really don't understand why anyone would even accept it. If I didn't study under someone, in their art, I would never accept rank from them for any reason. What would I do with it? What would it mean to me? Absolutely nothing.


 
Interesting points.  I've never really understood honorary rank.  Speaking for myself only, but I want to earn anything I get.  How would that look if someone saw that I had rank in an art that I didn't and they asked me to demo something, asked questions about it, etc., only for me to have to turn around and tell them that the rank isn't legit?


----------



## Flying Crane

MJS said:


> Interesting points. I've never really understood honorary rank. Speaking for myself only, but I want to earn anything I get. How would that look if someone saw that I had rank in an art that I didn't and they asked me to demo something, asked questions about it, etc., only for me to have to turn around and tell them that the rank isn't legit?


 
exactly.

and even tho many arts have some level of overlap, they are still different.  I train in Tracy's kenpo.  It has similarties to the later EPAK variations of kenpo, but it's not the same.  

So what if someday I achieve 8th dan in Tracys, and I become sort of a pillar in the Kenpo community, someone who has earned a lot of respect from all branches of kenpo and whatnot (I know, it's a stretch, let's just suspend our disbelief for a moment :rofl.

So then some high level EPAK guy, maybe he's a friend of mine, says "hey, I'll recognize you as a high rank in my system, after all, they are similar, cousin styles, if you will".  

But they are NOT THE SAME.  I don't know his curriculum.  I don't know how he does his kata.  I don't even know how to do a Neutral Bow stance because we use a Fighting Horse stance.  So bestowing rank just because a system has similarities doesn't make any more sense than just giving an "honorary" rank.  Either way it's misleading and stupidly pointless, in my opinion.

Why would I not be content with my ranking and status within Tracys?  A nod from an EPAK guy, in this manner, should not be necessary for anyone's ego.


----------



## John Bishop

_Disclaimer:
I'm not talking about Kenpo Joe in particular.

_If you closely examine the majority of people claiming high ranks in multiple systems, it's mostly a mutual back slapping and ego massaging thing that goes on.  Some of these guys trade rank certificates like kids trade baseball cards.  

And then there's the "Halls of Fame".  They've been the big martial arts money maker of the last 15-20 years.  More mutual back slapping.  I put you in my "Hall of Fame", you pay me $250-$350, and your guests pay $65-$75 to attend your awards presentation.  You get to put "Hall of Fame" member on your resume and advertising.  And I make $50,000-$100,000 per each "Hall of Fame" event I put on.  
And since the "Hall of Fame" owner wants to keep making money, you get nominated in different categories each subsequent year.  So your resume and ego enlarge, and his bank account enlarges.   

Next we have the "Sokeship Councils" and other diploma mill type organizations.  You get the rank you want, (as long as your check doesn't bounce).  
Here's just one of hundreds of real life examples:
This gentleman has brown belts in judo and shotokan, and a 3rd degree in Yoshinkan Aikido.  He tests for his 4th degree and fails.  
Later he's contacted by a "Hall of Fame" group with the great news that he's been nominated to receive a "Hall of Fame" induction.  Of course because of the expenses involved in putting on "such a prestigious event", he will have to pay $250.00, and his family and guests will have to pay $75 to attend the ceremony.  So he gets his "hall of fame" award  (and another the next year).  
He's also notified that the "Sokeship Council" of the HOF also want's to promote him.  So he pays his $500 promotion fee (1991), and gets promoted to 8th degree in "Aikido Taiho  Jutsu" (a non-existing style of aikido), by a board of soke's that does not include any aikido practitioners.
Later he loses interests in this organization, and joins another, which "recognizes" his 8th degree and gives him a matching 8th from their association.  
Now he starts thinking that he would really like to get his black belt in judo, since he quit training in judo when he was a brown belt.  So he asks his new organization what he needs to do to get his black.  They tell him, "send us your resume of martial arts training".  He sends in his resume that includes his brown belt in judo, and brown belt in shotokan, and a 8th degree in aikido.  
Well this impresses the new association so much that they promote him to 5th degree in judo, and as a added bonus since judo is a offshoot of jujitsu, he gets a 5th degree in jujitsu as well.  
Eventually he loses interest with this organization and joins another.  So his next goal is to have his "own system recognized".  So this new association's board (which also contains no aikido practitioners) promotes him to "10th degree Shodai Soke" of his own aikido system.  
So in less then 10 years, without participating in any classes or long term private instruction, he goes from judo brown, shotokan brown, and aikido sandan (3rd degree), to: 5th degree judo, 5th degree jujitsu, and 10th degree aikido.
And theres a lot worse examples out there in ego land.


----------



## stone_dragone

"..So in less then 10 years, without participating in any classes or long term private instruction, he goes from judo brown, shotokan brown, and aikido sandan (3rd degree), to: 5th degree judo, 5th degree jujitsu, and 10th degree aikido..."

I'm surprised that he doesn't claim any rank in "Moneyorder Ryu Checkjutsu."


----------



## Carol

Does this mean I have to give up my sokeships in Rhee Bok Do, Nike-Jutsu, and Kan go Ryu??? :wah:


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## stone_dragone

Carol Kaur said:


> Does this mean I have to give up my sokeships in Rhee Bok Do, Nike-Jutsu, and Kan go Ryu??? :wah:



Not at all.

In fact, for only $350 I will personally recognize your sokeship in Rhee-bok-kan Do Ryu Jutsu.


----------



## Steel Tiger

Flying Crane said:


> OK, now this is where I think it all becomes pointless. If you have achieved justifiably high rank in your art, thru long years of hard training and dedication, what good does it do anyone for your peers to "recognize" your skill by giving you high rank in their arts? You've already proven yourself within your own art. Rank in other arts, even if good intentioned, is a misrepresentation.
> 
> If your peers from other arts want to recognize your achievements and skill and knowledge, well maybe they can just give you an "outstanding achiever" plaque or something at a dinner event with the local community. But bestowing rank, even if recognzed as honorary, is just pointless in my opinion. And I really don't understand why anyone would even accept it. If I didn't study under someone, in their art, I would never accept rank from them for any reason. What would I do with it? What would it mean to me? Absolutely nothing.


 
I think this is why Gene Labell did not accept all those offers of rank for services to the martial arts he was offered.

"Judo" Gene is a great example as a counter to the multiple high rank misrepresentation that goes on.  Everyone knows his skill, there is no need to keep telling everyone.


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## Flying Crane

Steel Tiger said:


> Everyone knows his skill, there is no need to keep telling everyone.


 
well now, there's a helluva way to sum it all up...


----------



## John Bishop

stone_dragone said:


> Not at all.
> 
> In fact, for only $350 I will personally recognize your sokeship in Rhee-bok-kan Do Ryu Jutsu.



And for a similar amount I'll recognize your sokeship in the sister arts of:

Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Karate
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Kung Fu
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Tai Chi
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Ninjutsu
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Kickboxing
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Yoga
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Chi Projection


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## Carol

Carol Kaur said:


> Does this mean I have to give up my sokeships in Rhee Bok Do, Nike-Jutsu, and Kan go Ryu??? :wah:





stone_dragone said:


> Not at all.
> 
> In fact, for only $350 I will personally recognize your sokeship in Rhee-bok-kan Do Ryu Jutsu.





John Bishop said:


> And for a similar amount I'll recognize your sokeship in the sister arts of:
> 
> Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Karate
> Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Kung Fu
> Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Tai Chi
> Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Ninjutsu
> Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Kickboxing
> Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Yoga
> Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Chi Projection



Sweet!  I'm diversifying!  Although, I think I'll pass on the Kickboxing, Yoga, and Chi projection.  I'm going to wait on the Tai Chi till a bit later too.  It's all because I want to be seen as a serious martial artist and not one in it for sport or mysticism.....  :roflmao:


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## RevIV

Flying Crane said:


> It was my impression that RevIV trains with someone else, but knows Mr. Rebelo. Perhaps he will jump in and clarify that.


 
I Train with my original teacher out of NY.  I know and have worked out with Mr. Rebelo.
Jesse


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## KempoShaun

And I apologize for my mis-math issues.  I'm on heavy narcotics, and the old grey matter gets a bit confused.  Yes, Mr. Rebelo is celebrating his 39th, not 49th, year in the arts today.  Sorry for the confusion, I truly suck with numbers!!!  Anyway, I've been at the same rank for almost 11 years, I have no aspirations to advance anytime soon, and as Jesse can tell you, since he sat on the board testing me for my 5th in Prof. Kimo Ferreira's Kempo Jutsu-Kai, I barely deserve to wear any rank with what my illnesses have done to me.  I only continue to do so out of respect for my instructor and my deceased father who wanted a son to carry on his art.  So, not sure where I'm going with this, but anywho...  Oh, and one note about Sijo Bob Smith's credentials, Joe will be the first to tell you that he didn't always agree with some of the claims Sijo Smith made, but his skill was still impressive.  I say this only because Sijo Smith is to busy being DEAD, to respond in person.  I'm sorry if my tone is a little harsh, but why can't we seek out the true frauds and expose them, if this witch hunt (Yes Carol, I'm not too far from Salem either as you know) are to continue.  I love this board, and have had some amazing experiences with some of the members, and hope to continue to do so in the future, I just think people should workout with people before deciding what rank they should or shouldn't hold.  As for Mr. Rebelo, well, he knows about this thread and will respond shortly, as he's taking his birthday off from the net, but as both my instructor, or the guy who has shared my home with my mother and myself on several occasions, he's an incredible man, and my Martial Arts role model.  If I could ever get 1 / 10th of his knowledge, I could be an incredible Martial Artist.


----------



## Carol

KempoShaun said:


> And I apologize for my mis-math issues.  I'm on heavy narcotics, and the old grey matter gets a bit confused.  Yes, Mr. Rebelo is celebrating his 39th, not 49th, year in the arts today.  Sorry for the confusion, I truly suck with numbers!!!  Anyway, I've been at the same rank for almost 11 years, I have no aspirations to advance anytime soon, and as Jesse can tell you, since he sat on the board testing me for my 5th in Prof. Kimo Ferreira's Kempo Jutsu-Kai, I barely deserve to wear any rank with what my illnesses have done to me.  I only continue to do so out of respect for my instructor and my deceased father who wanted a son to carry on his art.  So, not sure where I'm going with this, but anywho...  Oh, and one note about Sijo Bob Smith's credentials, Joe will be the first to tell you that he didn't always agree with some of the claims Sijo Smith made, but his skill was still impressive.  I say this only because Sijo Smith is to busy being DEAD, to respond in person.  I'm sorry if my tone is a little harsh, but why can't we seek out the true frauds and expose them, if this witch hunt (Yes Carol, I'm not too far from Salem either as you know) are to continue.  I love this board, and have had some amazing experiences with some of the members, and hope to continue to do so in the future, I just think people should workout with people before deciding what rank they should or shouldn't hold.  As for Mr. Rebelo, well, he knows about this thread and will respond shortly, as he's taking his birthday off from the net, but as both my instructor, or the guy who has shared my home with my mother and myself on several occasions, he's an incredible man, and my Martial Arts role model.  If I could ever get 1 / 10th of his knowledge, I could be an incredible Martial Artist.



His influence shows in you Shawn...in your mind, your character, your courage, and your strength.  :asian:


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## KempoGuy06

MJS said:


> I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank?  Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it.  I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?
> 
> The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well!  I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more.  How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?
> 
> Now, for myself, I've never been a rank chaser.  I've been a 3rd for a while, and thats fine with me.  I cross train in Arnis and BJJ.  I have rank in Arnis, but never really had the desire to get any in BJJ.  IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.
> 
> Thoughts?


I only have a desire to get to black belt in SKK, if i go high great if i dont whatever, and the same goes for other arts id like to study (bjj, akido, hung gar). The only reason I chase rank is because i want to learn more other than that, the belt is used to hold my gi top together. I dont have a need to hold high rank in multiple arts the only reason I want to is because I want to learn as much as possible, but that want would never go any higher than the 4 styles i have listed. I like a lot of style but those are 4 that really hold my interest.

Great choice of topics as always MJS!

B


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## Danjo

KempoShaun said:


> And I apologize for my mis-math issues. I'm on heavy narcotics, and the old grey matter gets a bit confused. Yes, Mr. Rebelo is celebrating his 39th, not 49th, year in the arts today. Sorry for the confusion, I truly suck with numbers!!! Anyway, I've been at the same rank for almost 11 years, I have no aspirations to advance anytime soon, and as Jesse can tell you, since he sat on the board testing me for my 5th in Prof. Kimo Ferreira's Kempo Jutsu-Kai, I barely deserve to wear any rank with what my illnesses have done to me. I only continue to do so out of respect for my instructor and my deceased father who wanted a son to carry on his art.


 
You list yourself as "Founder" of your art. So which one is the one your father wanted you to continue with?



KempoShaun said:


> Oh, and one note about Sijo Bob Smith's credentials, Joe will be the first to tell you that he didn't always agree with some of the claims Sijo Smith made, but his skill was still impressive. I say this only because Sijo Smith is to busy being DEAD, to respond in person. I'm sorry if my tone is a little harsh, but why can't we seek out the true frauds and expose them, if this witch hunt (Yes Carol, I'm not too far from Salem either as you know) are to continue.


 
He wrote that stuff while he was still alive. As to his skill level, see the next segment.



KempoShaun said:


> I love this board, and have had some amazing experiences with some of the members, and hope to continue to do so in the future, I just think people should workout with people before deciding what rank they should or shouldn't hold.


 
Well, like was said above, we're not talking about someone's skill per se. Someone could be a champion kickboxer and never train in Karate. Should he be given a tenth degree? High rank usually means something more than mere physical skill.



KempoShaun said:


> As for Mr. Rebelo, well, he knows about this thread and will respond shortly, as he's taking his birthday off from the net, but as both my instructor, or the guy who has shared my home with my mother and myself on several occasions, he's an incredible man, and my Martial Arts role model. If I could ever get 1 / 10th of his knowledge, I could be an incredible Martial Artist.


 
That is all beside the point. My grandmother is one of the sweetest and most generous  people I know, should she be ranked in Karate?


----------



## SL4Drew

Flying Crane said:


> * * *If your peers from other arts want to recognize your achievements and skill and knowledge, well maybe they can just give you an "outstanding achiever" plaque or something at a dinner event with the local community. But bestowing rank, even if recognzed as honorary, is just pointless in my opinion. And I really don't understand why anyone would even accept it. If I didn't study under someone, in their art, I would never accept rank from them for any reason. What would I do with it? What would it mean to me? Absolutely nothing.


 
I think you have a good point. And I'm not saying that this sort of recognition ought to happen, just that it does. I think of people like Ed Parker, who probably got piles of these things. I suspect most the time he smiled, nodded, and threw it in the drawer later. I think that even if you disapprove of the award the more polite response is to just accept it and forget about it. But I don't have any problems with something like Gene LeBell's position either.

But the same question can be asked why anyone accepts or gives an honorary Ph.D., M.D., J.D., or M.B.A. I remember the movie Lorenzo' Oil, based somewhat on a true story. At the end the father gets an honorary M.D. (or maybe Ph.D.) for coming up with the treatment for his son's illness. Seemed fitting and an appropriate way to honor him. So, I don't think the problem is necessarily in the award or the receipt, it is how the recipient treats it, as I said before. 

The problem John points out is the reason that this practice may not be a good one. It is often rife with abuse. And most of the time high ranks are not only sought out but sought out only to feed an overgrown ego. Martial Arts have so many Halls of Fame that I think it is an utterly meaningless thing. I'm sure there are plenty of legit ones, but the bad ones overwhelm them--most can't tell the difference.

I know that some really care about how high someone's rank is and how many they have. I don't think it's that big a deal, even when it is questionable. In my experience, these people are seen through quickly and the only 'students' they have are those that want the same ego stroking their 'teacher' sought out. Plus, what it takes to be X degree of black varies some much from system to system. It's hard to really judge whether someone deserves the number of stripes they have because in my system maybe they wouldn't deserve it, but maybe in a dozen others it would deserved. I dont think their high rank waters down mine because it was awarded for different reasons. And then you throw in the fact that not all rank is strictly based on proficiency of performance, it becomes impossible to judge. To put it another way, there is no universal objective standard that under-girds all black belt promotions. 

For me the most important question is if the person can teach what he claims to teach. If someone claims to teach self-defense and their students pay for that information, but the material instills a false sense of confidence because its highly ineffective, not only was it fraudulent but now potentially dangerous. Good teachers of low rank are more important than mediocre teachers of high rank. I wish there was a way to assure minimum competence for everyone that teaches, but there isnt. I think the MA community takes more black eyes from incompetent teachers (whether first black or the founder of their system), than it does from people claiming multiple high ranks.


----------



## tellner

Except that people don't get honorary PhDs or MDs. There are DLitt, DLaws(h.c.), DSci, LhD and so on. They are very carefully distinguished from earned degrees. Giving out the latter out of courtesy or for general achievement risks the accreditation of the issuing university. If you get a PhD you have taken graduate classes, done original research to a certain standard, defended your thesis, taken comprehensive exams and so on. If you have the letters M.D. after your name you've spent four years in medical school passing basic and clinical sciences, gotten a comprehensive theoretical and practical education in medicine, done a clerkship and so on. There's a world of difference between that and an h.c. diploma given at Commencement or out of respect for general academic respectability.


----------



## Flying Crane

SL4Drew said:


> I think you have a good point. And I'm not saying that this sort of recognition ought to happen, just that it does...


 
I didn't want to take up the space by quoting your entire entry, but I just wanted to say that I think this was a thoughtful and intelligent contribution to this thread.


----------



## Flying Crane

tellner said:


> Except that people don't get honorary PhDs or MDs. There are DLitt, DLaws(h.c.), DSci, LhD and so on. They are very carefully distinguished from earned degrees. Giving out the latter out of courtesy or for general achievement risks the accreditation of the issuing university.


 
Are you sure about this?  It seems to me that I've seen reference to Mr. X receiving his honorary Doctorate from Stanford, or something.  Maybe I missed the fine print or something, and it was clear that it is not an earned degree and only honorary, but it was still referred to as a doctorate...

I dunno, I was just caught by surprise by your comment here.

And I agree with what you are saying in the main, that something like an honorary degree, esp. an honorary MD should be very clearly separated from an earned MD so that the recipient of the honorary degree doesn't try to practice medicine or something.


----------



## MJS

KempoShaun said:


> I just think people should workout with people before deciding what rank they should or shouldn't hold.


 
I suppose there are multiple points in this post.

1) The first and foremost question, one that I havent received an answer to, although I did start another thread about it is, Is it possible to attain high rank in multiple arts?

2) Rank isn't what impresses me, its their skill.  I could give a rats behind if the person is a 1st degree, 5th degree or 10th degree.  Once again...I still stand by my motto of: Impress me with your skill, not with the number of arts or stripes that you have. 

3) What is the fixation with high rank?  Seems like if someone doesnt have doubles or a double with a few stripes, they're a) not happy, and b) will think that people won't look up to them as much.


----------



## tellner

Flying Crane said:


> Are you sure about this?  It seems to me that I've seen reference to Mr. X receiving his honorary Doctorate from Stanford, or something.  Maybe I missed the fine print or something, and it was clear that it is not an earned degree and only honorary, but it was still referred to as a doctorate...



Augusto Odone received an honorary doctorate from the University of Stirling in Scotland. I believe it was a Doctor of Science or the UK equivalent. Like other honorary degrees it denotes respect and allows the bearer to use the title "Doctor", but it is not an MD that would allow him to practice medicine.


----------



## RevIV

MJS said:


> I suppose there are multiple points in this post.
> 
> 3) What is the fixation with high rank? Seems like if someone doesnt have doubles or a double with a few stripes, they're a) not happy, and b) will think that people won't look up to them as much.


 
Whats wrong with society? this is the question.. people are not content. look at all the plastic surgery out there.  People cannot make themselves happy on their own and that is sad.
Jesse


----------



## MJS

RevIV said:


> Whats wrong with society? this is the question.. people are not content. look at all the plastic surgery out there. People cannot make themselves happy on their own and that is sad.
> Jesse


 
Thats true.  People should, unless there is a need for the plastic surgery, just be happy with the way their body is.  The same for rank.  Be happy with training, learning, spreading the art, etc.  When the time is right for another rank, it'll happen.


----------



## tellner

RevIV said:


> Whats wrong with society? this is the question.. people are not content. look at all the plastic surgery out there.  People cannot make themselves happy on their own and that is sad.
> Jesse



We have spent half a century being indoctrinated into the Cult of the Things. Happiness comes from owning the Perfect Things. Happiness that comes from within or which is not bought and consumed isn't real


----------



## Flying Crane

tellner said:


> Happiness that comes from within or which is not bought and consumed isn't real


 
A big mug of hot chocolate makes me happy.  But then it's gone and I'm sad...


----------



## Danjo

I think that one of the problems with having many high ranks in a myriad of arts is that it can cause one to think that there must be something wrong with a person that doesn't have all of those ranks. 

It used to be that if someone had achieved black belt level, it was impressive. Now it's like, "What does that person know? He's only a black belt!"

While certain things are less impressive with the passage of time  due to neccessity of the economy (remember when it was impressive to be a millionaire?) or due to diet (in 1960 the average male height in the USA was 5'7" and now it is 5'9"), but certain things shouldn't change. 

How long it takes the average person to reach black belt should be pretty consistent over time and if it took three to five years 40 years ago, it should still be that now. 

There are always going to be exceptions to this both in terms of how difficult the art is to master and how talented the individual studying the art is, but the average should remain about the same.

Should I be less impressed with my instructor who only has one 8th degree rank after decades in one art than I am with someone claiming several? I think that most people know the answer to that intuitively.


----------



## tellner

"Only one 8th degree black belt"?

Consider, oh, Kyozu Mifune. He only did one martial art. I'm willing to bet that there aren't but five or six people in the world today who are in his class as a martial artist. And on a really good day there might be two or three people on MT with the depth and sophistication to really comprehend what he was doing on those old grainy tapes. Equal him? Don't make me laugh.


----------



## dianhsuhe

There just is not enough time on Earth to accomplish those ranks with any legitimacy, in my opinion.

It does seem though that many systems do not have criteria required for the higher ranks (techniques, forms, weapons, healing, etc.) it seems more closely related to who you know, friends promoting each other to high ranks in arts based on their "contribution to the martial arts" and general "time in the arts".  Masters promoting each other all over the place or creating their own style when they hit the wall in a given style.

I suppose I am just unlucky since I chose an art that has CRITERIA for EVERY dan rank, 1st to 10th dan.  So I cannot just go to a tournament and teach for awhile and get promoted- I have to gain competence in new material that is challenging so say the least.  LOL

One of our instructors left the org. years ago as a Shodan with 7 years of training and now has the title of "Professor" and a 7th dan that was voted on by a board of directors from different styles.  No thank you---I will take the knowledge and honor my instructors and style until there is no more to learn.

Cheers


----------



## Kacey

dianhsuhe said:


> There just is not enough time on Earth to accomplish those ranks with any legitimacy, in my opinion.
> 
> It does seem though that many systems do not have criteria required for the higher ranks (techniques, forms, weapons, healing, etc.) it seems more closely related to who you know, friends promoting each other to high ranks in arts based on their "contribution to the martial arts" and general "time in the arts".  Masters promoting each other all over the place or creating their own style when they hit the wall in a given style.
> 
> I suppose I am just unlucky since I chose an art that has CRITERIA for EVERY dan rank, 1st to 10th dan.  So I cannot just go to a tournament and teach for awhile and get promoted- I have to gain competence in new material that is challenging so say the least.  LOL
> 
> One of our instructors left the org. years ago as a Shodan with 7 years of training and now has the title of "Professor" and a 7th dan that was voted on by a board of directors from different styles.  No thank you---I will take the knowledge and honor my instructors and style until there is no more to learn.
> 
> Cheers



I agree - there are lots of people trading favors out there, and it gives those who actually _earn_ their rank a bad name.

Is it possible to earn multiple high ranks?  I think it's _possible_ - but I think earning, say, multiple 5th dans or higher would require someone to do _nothing_ but train, day and night, in all of the arts in which the person held those ranks - and the person would have to start quite young and stay with it for decades.  So while I think it may be possible, I don't think it's particularly likely for most people.


----------



## KENPOJOE

MJS said:


> I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank? Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it. I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?
> 
> The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?
> 
> Now, for myself, I've never been a rank chaser. I've been a 3rd for a while, and thats fine with me. I cross train in Arnis and BJJ. I have rank in Arnis, but never really had the desire to get any in BJJ. IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.
> 
> Thoughts?


Hi folks!
Dear MJS,
The first thing that comes to mind is why do you consider it an "obsession"? If you don't think there is anything wrong with it,then what is the problem?
There are prerequistes that are dictated by various dojos,groups and/or organizations. Those requirements vary from group to group and style to style. We are not all created equal and different individuals base their criteria on their life experienecs and how they veiw a particular person's ability. In my martial arts career, I have dealt with all forms of scenarios regards knowledge and rank. They run the gamut of training and contrary to what some may think,I am definitely not a "rank chaser". A knowledge chaser,definitely, but not a rank chaser!
In regards to having multiple ranks in multiple arts, I cannot speak for others,only for my personal martial arts journey. I literally sacrificed much of what most people consider a "normal" life. I have given numerous hours to the study of the arts. I have studied at no less than 5 different arts at the same time! Training in different dojo/kwoon/dojang/training halls at different locations on different days & nights. to the point i would go to dojos by bus,take the classes there, be literally stranded there,have to sleep on the dojo floor and then take the first bus to get back home to teach or train at another studio that day,afternoon or night. I have collected numerous videos,dvds and other media in a never-ending quest for diverse knowledge, I have interviewed innumerous martial artists for my TV show,most times training with them,taking semionars as well as private lessons from them. I have committed to memory basics,techniques,forms of several systems and sought the "cross references" and "transition actions" than can make these different styles/systems flow with continuity of motion. That was the important thing. When people come into my studio they are immediately taken aback because it looks like  part studio,part library,part martial arts museum. To paraphrase a quote "It's just the way I roll!". I am always willing to put my body on the line to learn from instructors,masters and grandmasters of the martial arts & have them demonstrate on me so I can feel how they perform a particular technique and/or action. I look with an observant eye and focus on asking intuitive interogative questions so I can gain more insight into their life and art. Also, having a high IQ and a photographic memory doesn't hurt either!
MJS, I can easily relate to your story of not being a rank chaser. I did not receive my second degree in EPAK until a year before Mr. Parker's death. I tested for my second 2 years after his death  and didn't test for my next degree for 7 years. When asked why I didn't go for rank,I would reply "i'm still mourning my instructor". It was  at the request of Mrs Parker,Doreen Cogliandro & gilbert Velez that I even tested for my 4th. So, I definitely wasn't jumping up and down waving the toungues of my belt whining "I wanna 'nother stripe!!!".
You want to get mutiple ranks in multiple arts? don't get a house.Don't get a car. don't get a girlfriend/boyfriend. Definitely don't get a husband or wife! forget about having or wanting children. Simply train,study,learn,grow,develop,evolve.
Anyone who really knows me will tell you I'm "passionate" about what I do. It's a nice way of saying I'm a compulsive,obsessed [there's where obsession fits in],fanatic about the arts and what I do...
MJS, you clearly state that it was your active choice not to obtain rank. You clearly state that you are "happy" to be at the rank that you are,but yet you question those who either were not happy to "settle for mediocracy" and continue being recognized for their accomplishments in the arts they study. I constantly inundate myself with martial arts on a daily basis and immerse myself on a daily basis,from literally teaching anywhere from one to seven different on any given day. Today was a slow day,only teaching 2 different arts [tai chi & jujutsu],actually took a 'rest" playing DOA 4" on xbox but if you know me, i'm naming techniques from different style the characters depict,analyzing techniques [check out bayman's lock flow ground drills, especially the prone and then sitting arm break technique] then have a student call me  to let me know about the new nova episode "secrets of the samurai sword" on PBS, then after typing here,osaking the tatami so i can practice my batto sword cutting and then checking out WWE and recording it as well as human weapon!
Normal life??What's That?
Welcome to my world.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
PS: I realize you are not "targeting" me,but in later posts you clearly state that I was one of the people you were "thinking" about when you wrote this,So, I responded. As the old adage goes "When you step on the tiger's tail,you wake him up!"


----------



## KENPOJOE

tellner said:


> Status. Marketing. Walter Mittyism. Vanity. Been told that that's what it's all about. Unsure of ability and need reassurance. Norms within their groups.
> 
> Take your pick.


Hi folks!
Gee Tellner, No positive reasons there. Guess everyone should stay a white belt? What do you think are some of the positive reasons and rationale for those accomplishments and acolades? Perhaps those self same groups are completely sure of an individual's ability and it is they who seek to "reassure" said individual that they,as a governing body for a given art and/or arts,wish to acknowledge that person. Radical concept but it has merit.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

exile said:


> Big question. I've lived my whole professional life in a bitterly hierarchical system, the academic world of big research universities, and I've noticed some scary parallels to the MA world, which might supply at least part of the answer.
> 
> If you look at academics, the reason they perceive high rank the way they do is not really salary, or reputation. You don't get that much of a financial kick upward going from Associate to Full Professor, for example. And your reputation in the field is only indirectly associated with your formal rank. It's based much more on your `breakthrough' discoveries, the kind of thing you became known for, in many cases, _BEFORE_ you were promoted to Full. Nor is it simple academic survival: once you make Associate Professor, you typically have tenure and you're safe from harm. (You _earn_ that protection, mindit's extremely tough to get tenure and plenty of Assistant Profs don't, in the end). So why do people obsessively pursue that rank? (and I speak as one who knows first hand just how obsessive it is...)
> 
> The answer is I think applicable not just to the university but to the MA world as well. It's this: when you join the university as a graduate student, you are socialized into a system which does not regard you as fully human; you have to earn treatment as a human being by advancement in the ranks. Get hired in a good dept. on a tenure-track line, that makes you 50% human (and you will be _treated_ by your tenured colleagues as half-human, make no mistake! ) Advance to tenure, and you're now 90% human... but not quite, eh? And that 10% difference is very conspicuous to someone who's grown up in the system. Advance to Full, and, well... now you're a human being. Bear in mind, if you get your first job at age 25, say, you may not make Full until you're in your early 40s, or later. So most of your adult life is learning the cultural currency of a particular ranking system that you've bought into by choosing that way of earning a livelihood, but obviously it's more than that: it's your life-culture, your worldview. I think something similar is going on in the MAs.
> 
> Think of a black belt as a Ph.D.; at this point, you're in a sense licensed to explore on your own. You have the basic skills, but still have a reputation to develop if you want respect in that world. And for a lot of people, that kind of respect is just as important as the respect young academics hope for from their peers or senior colleagues. The more you advance in rank, the more you're treated with respect, the more `human' you are. For people who have identified their `life-world' as that of the MAs, gaining that level of respect is probably just as important as it is for a new young faculty member to get acknowledgement of their worth from their older, now comfortably established senior colleagues who have proven themselves through decades of academic combat. I think that _that_ is what the constant pursuit of rank in the MAs is all about.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never understood that. But I think some people are biomechanical geniuses, in the same way that certain people launch careers as solo musicians when their age is still in single digits: they're prodigies. They were born to do MAs, and for them, it's like a sponge sucking in water.


Hi folks!
Dear Exile,
An excellent dissertation with many excellent points! I started doing the martial arts at 7 and commercially trained at age 12.So,i've been in an at the arts for awhile. I've never called myself a prodigy nor a genius,let others do so if they desire. As a side note,One time I was speaking with Mr. Parker at a seminar,and I said to him "Mr. Parker,you're a genius!". to which Mr. Parker replied "I don't know about that,Joseph.". When I asked him why he didn't think that way,he replied "Well,Joseph,most geniuses are crazy!" LOL!
So,until i start imitating daffy duck and bouncing off the ceiling...
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

Kacey said:


> The way I look at it, you can either learn a small number of things in great detail, or a large number of things in broad outline - this applies to quite a few things, rank in MA's among them.
> 
> Here's an analogy: if someone learns Latin, they can learn Latinate languages more easily than someone who learns Russian and then wants to learn Spanish. Likewise, someone who earns ranks in MA #1 has learned some general principles that are going to be applicable to MA #2, and #3, and so on - making it easier to earn rank in future arts.
> 
> Also, I have seen a fair number of places that will start BB's in any art at their rank in the other art - and continue to advance those BB's whether they learn the lower level material or not, which makes it a lot easier to earn advanced degrees in multiple arts... if you pick subsequent arts with sufficient care.
> 
> For myself, I'm not interested in rank in other arts; even in TKD, gaining further rank is a way to increase my knowledge - like a friend of mine who was in a doctoral program that included a master's degree as a signpost of progress toward a Ph. D., rank is something I have earned as a byproduct of my quest for knowledge, rather than something I have sought for its own sake. I would like to train in some other arts, to increase my understanding in general, and to add the things not emphasized in TKD... but at the rate my schedule is filling, it may have to wait until I retire.


Hi folks!
Dear Kacey,
Thank you for touching upon an important ingredient in corralation to studying and obtaining knowledge and rank! An excellent analogy! In regards the the "you are already a blackbelt somewhere else in something else" section, Ive never really agreed to that unless I could show said material that was required within their curriculum. And because of that I could learn at an accellerated rate,while not waiving learning the required material.
also, excellelent corralation to your academic degrees and accomplishments to you as well!Kudos to you!
As you mention, by your own volition, you do not actively seek rank as such within your given art,You have actively chosen not to obtain rank as an accolade of your progress,which is your perogative. That's the key! You choose to do so, as those who choose to accept/obtain rank chose their path as well.
Thank you for your time and imput,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

Steel Tiger said:


> Ego and money combine to produce this obsession with high rank. I think that a lot of this has to do with low self-esteem. It may seem odd to think of people who are supposed to be at the top of the MA game as having low self-esteem, but look at the various reasons that people take up the arts. Often it is to develop self confidence or to give them a defence against bullying. Hidden in this are the seeds of low self-esteem. They dont always grow into the fully blossoming tree but it happens often enough for us to see many rank chasers.
> 
> I, too, have always had a problem with high rank in many arts, but I have come to the conclusion that a lot of this rank is what I call mate's rank or honorary rank. Honorary rank isn't such a problem as it is usually given in recognition for services to the martial arts. Mate's rank is a different kettle of fish. Its that insidious 'gift' one friend gives another, usually qid pro qou. However, you cannot tell the difference between them so it just looks like a person training 30 hours a day.
> 
> I have a good rank in one art and that is good enough for me after all the time I've put in.
> I'm happy.


Hi folks!
Dear Steel Tiger,
It seems that people can only look this entire scenario as a negative experience and an "obsession" because of folks have "low self esteem" and don't "feel good about themselves"...
Personally, i'm ok with me! I'm happy with me,not estatic,not elated,but,as George Carlin said "moderately neato" with how I am as a human being and a martial artist. In regards to the "quid pro quo" aspect, I've never "exchanged" rank with anyone exactly for that reason! I never wanted to be accused of doing that because of the scenario you mention.
In my instance,I have always mentioned whenever a particular rank in a given art was honorary. It was usually due to myself actively assisting those given instructors to enhance their given art and to encourage them in their endevor as well as actively instructing them and brainstorming with them on their art! I had more than one instructor say to me, you can explain my art better than I myself can!" in regards to elaborating on what a given action,motion can do.
Steel tiger, you do one art and are happy doing that. That is the important thing.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

still learning said:


> Hello, Many of those with lots of ranks in different arts, were most likely promote faster than those who are NOT involve with other arts.
> 
> Because of their past experiences' many learn faster too.
> 
> Joe lewis got his Black belt in less than 7 months in Okinawa, he kept beating all the Black belts in class.
> 
> Many of these people did not do for EGO"S, many want to learn something else that would help there search for building there skills.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Many of us skills in plumbing,auto repairs,carpentry,electrcity,computers,fishing,diving,basketball,baseball,...plus other degrees from college,banks,special training in all kinds of things...these degrees benifit our growths.
> 
> some are just jack of all trades and master of NONE. some do become a master level.
> 
> Today many NEW students(they have train in other martial arts) come to experience a new art or different style of martial art...exploring,developling new skills, and wanting to learn more and more....
> 
> Learning martial art can be endless.....Just my thoughts here.....Still Learning..........Aloha


Hi folks!
Dear still learning,
Regarding your post, I concur!
In the past, I've heard the old tired line "so, you're a jack of all trades,master of none!" to which I reply, "no, I'm a jack of all trades,master of several! Allow me to demonstrate!"
Thanks for the imput!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

Danjo said:


> High rank is no problem in one or maybe two arts. But much more than that and you can bet that the person bought it or had it given to him honorarily. If it was honorary, no biggie. It's just a way of showing respect etc. If they bought it, or swapped it for rank in one's own art, then it's pretty dispicable. If someone has pretty high rank in only one art, I will likely listen to what they have to say. If they have a bunch of arts that they claim high rank from, then I listen to them less than I would someone who was low ranked.


Hi folks,
Dear Danjo,
as always, you are entitled to your opinion. Each case has to be looked at individually as opposed to "blanket opinion" [that can border on stereotyping]. The key ingredient is can those individuals perform the actual material and discuss it intelligently with other martial arts? Can they "walk the walk and talk the talk" ? If so, then as the old adage goes,"the proof is in the pudding".
I do concur on the the aspect of "buying rank" though. Never did it,never wanted to do it. Because sooner or later someone will ask you to demonstrate said art! it's that simple. I've addressed honorary rank and the reason and rationale behind it in a previous post.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

stone_dragone said:


> Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.


Hi folks!
Dear stone dragone,
Really? I've seen Japanese sensei of koryu [old school] budo who have "menkyo kaiden"[master rank and scroll] in several different ryuha [style syllabus]. Many times it is under the auspices of a particular style organization and/or group.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## tshadowchaser

> Ive never really agreed to that unless I could show said material that was required within their curriculum.


 
a great point in getting rank.  If anyone dose not know the material of the system they are hetting rank in then why are they getting the rank.

Having studied a few arts over the years i know I would have felt foolish accepting rank in a system just because I had rank in something different.  If I could not show the required eliments needed to gain a rank I would most certianly never expect to wear it.

People who know some arts are able to study certian other arts that are closely related and go up in rank at a fast pace. 
People who study a art completly different from the one they know take a longer time to gain rank.
That being said if a person is truely a student of the arts they may have a wide varrity of knowledge and may also be able to adapt to new arts faster than noemal and thus gain rank faster than most.

Also habeing studied completly different arts at a few times in my life I concure with KenpoJoe that one can do it if they are willing to have little of a home life. Those they are married to may often wonder if the are married to the arts not their spouse


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## MJS

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear MJS,
> The first thing that comes to mind is why do you consider it an "obsession"?


 
Well Joe, I'm sure you've been around alot longer than I, so I'm sure you must have seen a little of what I'm about to say. 2 reasons come to mind. 1) some people feel that status and the way others view them is very important. They may feel that by having all the bells and whistles, people will look at them differently. 2) Anytime a founder or head of a system passes, all hell usually breaks loose. Are you really going to tell me that when Parker passed, nobody jumped a few ranks or made some new claim to fame? It happened when Remy Presas died, I'm sure it happened when Parker died. What people should be obsessed with with spreading the art and bettering themselves, not necessarily how much red they have.



> If you don't think there is anything wrong with it,then what is the problem?


 
I think I covered that in the rest of my post. Are they following the proper time frame or are people slapping on some red every month or every year? Nothing wrong with having it, but my question was, is it possible to have it in 7 different arts? 



> I am definitely not a "rank chaser". A knowledge chaser,definitely, but not a rank chaser!


 
Ok, but.....



> In regards to having multiple ranks in multiple arts, I cannot speak for others,only for my personal martial arts journey. I literally sacrificed much of what most people consider a "normal" life. I have given numerous hours to the study of the arts. I have studied at no less than 5 different arts at the same time! Training in different dojo/kwoon/dojang/training halls at different locations on different days & nights. to the point i would go to dojos by bus,take the classes there, be literally stranded there,have to sleep on the dojo floor and then take the first bus to get back home to teach or train at another studio that day,afternoon or night. I have collected numerous videos,dvds and other media in a never-ending quest for diverse knowledge,


 
I don't know..just seems like a difficult and tiring task. What was the desire to do no less than 5 at the same time? Just seems like alot of rank, in many arts. What was, out of curiosity, the time frame for all of this?




> MJS, you clearly state that it was your active choice not to obtain rank. You clearly state that you are "happy" to be at the rank that you are,but yet you question those who either were not happy to "settle for mediocracy" and continue being recognized for their accomplishments in the arts they study.


 
I recently switched arts, so during that period, while learning the new material (Parker to Tracy) I'm not testing for any new rank. When the time is right, I'll test. Has nothing to do with mediocracy. I certainly wouldn't say my skills are mediocre. My inst. certainly acknowledges my accomplishments, and I've received many compliments from people that I've taught. But, I don't need rank in 10 arts, and multiple BB degrees to prove anything. 

Thanks for taking the time to give your replies. 

Mike


----------



## John Bishop

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> In regards the the "you are already a blackbelt somewhere else in something else" section, Ive never really agreed to that unless I could show said material that was required within their curriculum. And because of that I could learn at an accellerated rate,while not waiving learning the required material.
> KENPOJOE



I would think that any decent 1st degree black belt would be able to demonstrate the curriculum of their system.  
But normally when one gets to the point of being 6th - 9th degree in a system, that rank usually represents 20 to 40+ plus years of active participation in that system.  
So how many lifetimes would it take for someone to actually earn several high ranks?


----------



## Monadnock

John Bishop said:


> I would think that any decent 1st degree black belt would be able to demonstrate the curriculum of their system.
> But normally when one gets to the point of being 6th - 9th degree in a system, that rank usually represents 20 to 40+ plus years of active participation in that system.
> So how many lifetimes would it take for someone to actually earn several high ranks?


 
I think they could be earned simultaneously if the arts are similar.

I can think of a lot of Japanese stylists with many high ranks, some still living. In fact, there is a Soke of 9 ryu who is doing quite well.


----------



## John Bishop

Monadnock said:


> I think they could be earned simultaneously if the arts are similar.
> 
> I can think of a lot of Japanese stylists with many high ranks, some still living. In fact, there is a Soke of 9 ryu who is doing quite well.



"Japanese" stylists, or non-Asians who practice Japanese arts?  Most of the "Japanese" martial artists I've known were of the opinion that a lifetime of study and practice could be dedicated to 1 or 2 martial arts.


----------



## dianhsuhe

What a great thread...

I sure appreciate Kenpojoe and his thoughtful posts, I am happily married but often fantasize about truly "living the martial way" and what it might be like to study my art FULL-TIME.  I have been fortunate to teach full-time when I was younger but never LIVED the art.  

Interesting that in the system I chose, the material required for upper dan ranks is VERY challenging- Literally an entirely different level of movement, understanding, and mental attitude.  I am a mere 3rd dan after 15 years in-  I would not think of studying something else cuz I am getting to the real good stuff now!  LOL

5 arts at one time must be tremendously difficult and confusing- Mr Rebelo is obviously an exception to the rule...Children do not try this at home!  Many folks go til they get their Shodan, then they check that art off their list and move to the next.  To each their own, just please do not create your own art based on your "vast martial arts resume" which is basically beginner material (white to 1st degree BB) from a mish-mash of arts.

I see it all the time and I feel for the unwitting students who sign up to learn: Karate-Kenpo-Jujitsu-Tai Chi, Kung-Fu- Krav Maga.  LOL

James


----------



## tellner

"You can do ten years of martial arts or you can do the first year ten times," as Guru Plinck says. 

Back in the days when dinosaurs walked the Earth and Usenet had not turned into utter unmitigated crap I made a point by making up the name of the mythical "Billy Bob's Kenpo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu". Damned if I didn't get angry email from a guy who didn't like me insulting his teacher Master Billy Bob. There was such a guy. The name of his art really did start out with "Kenpo Ryu Bujutsu" with something else tacked on the end. I'm willing to bet that only the first three words "Billy", "Bob" and "Kenpo" were true. And I wouldn't take odds on the quality of the Kenpo.


----------



## Monadnock

John Bishop said:


> "Japanese" stylists, or non-Asians who practice Japanese arts? Most of the "Japanese" martial artists I've known were of the opinion that a lifetime of study and practice could be dedicated to 1 or 2 martial arts.


 
I was referring to Japanese people. But I think the same could extend to anyone who trains full time.

Learning several systems of weapons, like sword, naginata and bo plus empty hand arts could be done by training in several systems, or, one all inclusive system. (Generally only one rank would be issued in this case)

I think what is important is that there has been a considerable amount of time spent under each art, or category, if a high rank is to be earned.

However, I can certainly appreciate the concern in this country to protect students from going under self proclaimed masters and mega-dans.

Just my $.02. Thanks for reading


----------



## Jdokan

As a person attains a certain level of mastery of an art they have developed specific fundamentals on basics, balance, concepts, etc....these are the typical things that takes a newbie off the street the 3+ years to digest to get their BB....After 10+ years of studying what becomes the criteria to gain a BB in another style?  If you can memorize ALL the material and perform it as expected and that time frame is 6 months  what happens?  Does that individual wait another 2 1/2 years???
....In every circle there are those that are legitimate in what they can accomplish but there is also those that are not and at times the unsuspecting individual gets rooked...which makes us all look bad...
Anyways,
to quote a famous American: that's my two cents....


----------



## Danjo

Kenpo Joe wrote: "no, I'm a jack of all trades,master of several! Allow me to demonstrate!"

Modesty aside, so you're telling us that you're a master of Karazenpo then? What exactly IS the curriculum for Karazenpo? No one seems to be able to pin that one down exactly, but since you're a master of it, perhaps you can clarify things for us?

How many Kata/forms are there? Combinations? etc.

I know that Walter Godin and at least two of his students said that there is no curriculum of Karazenpo, but that would make it hard to be a master of such an art eh?

I also know that Joe Shuras told me that when they asked Sonny Gascon to demonstrate something besides break falls to show them what Karazenpo looked like he replied "It's all Karazenpo". So what's that supposed to mean exactly? Karazenpo is either an art that you can have a 5th degree in, or not.

Enlighten us here if you can.

Dan


----------



## DavidCC

Danjo said:


> Kenpo Joe wrote: "no, I'm a jack of all trades,master of several! Allow me to demonstrate!"
> 
> Modesty aside, so you're telling us that you're a master of Karazenpo then? What exactly IS the curriculum for Karazenpo? No one seems to be able to pin that one down exactly, but since you're a master of it, perhaps you can clarify things for us?
> 
> How many Kata/forms are there? Combinations? etc.
> 
> I know that Walter Godin and at least two of his students said that there is no curriculum of Karazenpo, but that would make it hard to be a master of such an art eh?
> 
> I also know that Joe Shuras told me that when they asked Sonny Gascon to demonstrate something besides break falls to show them what Karazenpo looked like he replied "It's all Karazenpo". So what's that supposed to mean exactly? Karazenpo is either an art that you can have a 5th degree in, or not.
> 
> Enlighten us here if you can.
> 
> Dan


 
I know where you can get some Karazenpo kata on video...


----------



## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> I know where you can get some Karazenpo kata on video...


 
So do I; at the Villari website.


----------



## KENPOJOE

elder999 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Yeah, that seems like a lot. Though, partially in this example's defense,(knowing nothing else about him, though) I've got to point out that several of those multiple rankings appear to be in the same or related "arts," like everything _Nindo ryu_, or Parker kenpo and Dave German's TAI, and the other kenpo as well....though it is pretty questionable...and unnecessary-he certainly can't be _teaching_ all of those things, or practicing them properly.


 
Hi folks!
Dear Elder999,
You've "hit the nail on the head" by noticing that several of the ranking are under one particular group or another. The Nindo Ryu ranks are under the auspices of that particular group and they are awarded by that group.The format is similar to "koryu" such as Katori Shinto Ryu or Yoshinkai Kobujutsu. As Mr. Parker's system and Mr. German's art are similar as well. As eluded to in an earlier post on this thread, If one has a well established knowledge of a given system or systems,it would be far easier to learn a similar style of art. If you as a miyama ryu jujutsu practitioner would study Danzan ryu Jujutsu, you would obviously find many similarities within that style and would be able to learn at an accelerated rate having a firm knowledge in a previous jujutsu style. As to whether I practice them "properly", well, that is up to my students who study under me and my direct subordinates in those given arts. I do actively teach many of those arts but not all. There are some that I specifically studied for my own personal knowledge and presently do not teach to the general public. Except upon request or lack of an instructor in that given art in my area.
In regards to finding it "unneccesary", I would hope that you would look at other jujutsu styles to see similarities and differences to gain greater insight into those diverse aspects of your overall art.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

Steel Tiger said:


> It would be nice if we saw this sort of thing more often.
> 
> You know if an instructor acknowledges an honorary rank that they are not going to be teaching anything more than the rudiments of that style and that the more profound teaching will be in their chosen art.
> 
> I like the idea of the MA community honouring one of it's members who has contributed over a long period of time. Unfortunately, all too often we see friends giving each other high rankings for monetary reasons. To see a list of more than five (let alone eighteen or twenty) arts with high rank is very sad. It gives the wrong impression of the martial arts. It suggests that such achievements are easy.
> 
> Just taking Mr Rebelo as an example. Some of the arts listed there take years to develop any sort of understanding, let alone mastery (three styles of taijiquan for example). It gives aspiring students a very wrong idea of what to expect from their training.


 
Hi folks!
Dear Steel Tiger,
Thank you for recognizing my acknowledgement of those ranks that were honorary in nature. Many times over the years, I have assisted various martial artists in their creative thought process of fomulating their own unique art/style/system and offered insight/advice to said artists. Whether it was to confirm that a particular action/motion,technique was already in another style/system and through their study had basically found the same answer that those others had found, independent of seeing said source! I've always made myself available to help foster the creative thought process. When we stifle that process, the art gets lost.
Those individuals chose of their own accord to recognize me either as a technical advisor or an honorary black belt in their given discipline. To the point I could look at certian movements,actions,etc and say "I showed him that!" and it brings great joy to me when they value my imput to incorporate it into their own style/system.
In regards to the 3 tai chi styles, the Wu Tan/Wu tang group teaches select forms from those given styles of tai chi and I teach those given forms. I also go over the practical applications as well as forms themsleves. Wu tan, like other chinese martial arts kwoons, frequently teach several forms/styles under one roof [Ching Wu comes to mind as well as Shaolin]
Thank you for your imput,
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

PatMunk said:


> I have to agree with you Danjo on this ... Claiming multiple high ranks only serves to feed the Ego of the person. It takes a lifetime to master a martial arts system.
> 
> I also would listen to someone who has high rank in one system more than someone who claims high rank in multiple systems.


 
Hi folks!
Dear Pat,
Your Grandmaster,Al Tracy,was kind enough to "listen" to me, as well as allow me to interview many of the masters at the 2nd gathering of the eagles and allowed me to teach seminar at the last GOTE as well as be inducted into the International kenpo hall of fame. I was honored and humbled by this gesture and will always be grateful. So, you could always ask them about me and hopefully they still like me!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

Flying Crane said:


> Well, it'a actually pretty common for Chinese style martial artists to have studied several systems, but they often don't have the same ranking structure so it sort of doesn't attract the same kind of attention. But it is not uncommon for someone in the Chinese arts to teach several different systems.
> 
> I think the Chinese arts are a bit more fluid in this way, viewing it all as more similar and part of the "Bigger Picture" than seeing it as separate...


 
Hi folks!
Dear Flying Crane,
Thank you for confirming this common practice within the Chinese arts. Too many people look at "sifu" and depending what style you study, it could be a formal "ba shi" family ceremony to a simple "you go teach now" from your instructor. It's "consistant in it's inconsistancy"! I've had the pleasure of learning several arts under the Wu Tang banner and have had the honor of continuing my study and practice of those arts.
Again,thank you for pointing this out!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, I think I'm with ya on this.
> 
> As far as the form goes, I guess I think especially in Tai Chi sometimes a teacher will give his student the nod to teach certain aspects of the art, even if full understanding of the complete art is still lacking. The teacher might say, "OK, you seem to understand the Chen 24 Posture Form pretty well, you can teach THAT to some students if you like." But I think there is an implied limit on that, and the 24 Form is far from the complete Chen system. I personally don't consider this person a Chen Tai Chi Sifu. He's still very much a student himself, with very limited teaching authority.
> 
> I sometimes see people list their resume online, and it seems to go on forever, you gotta keep scrolling down and down and down to see it all. They like to list every underbelt rank ever achieved in any system, every seminar they ever took that is even vaguely connected to martial arts, even tho it never lead to anything further, and every trophy they ever won in any tournament, and every famous person they ever shook hands with. It seems like listing every form and every partial art they have ever encountered is just resume padding.
> 
> I also understand what you are saying about being called "sifu". I've been training with my sifu for just about 10 years now, and about 2 years ago or so he asked me to begin leading some of the students thru some basic tai chi sword work. I think some of the students have begun to see me as a sifu in my own right, or at least an assistant sifu, but I don't feel like I merit that kind of title yet. I'm just a student struggling with the sword myself, and teaching it helps me focus on the details, and gives my sifu another opportunity to guide me as well when he makes corrections.
> 
> Ah well. It's all in how you present yourself. I think some people want to grasp at the authority and dignity and status that being a teacher with high rank seems to imply. I'm really in no hurry to make such a claim.


Hi folks,
Dear Flying Crane,
Again,a good post!
I can only speak from my personal experience, I presently teach what my sifu taught me and sad to say,he and the other 7 chosen disciples of their particular master no longer teach the arts. I am one of the few who chose to carry on the tradition of my sifu's art. When said master was teaching a seminar in my area years ago,he say my students going over some of the original forms and said "You still teach that?" and proceded to go over the form and give a correction on it and was happily surprised we still did that curriculum, that even he had streamlined over the years. I don't fuss over "sifu" titles,because I was always taught that sifu/shirfu was a simple term for "teacher father" and as you guide your own students through a certain curriculum, you are their sifu.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## MJS

Joe,

If you woudln't mind, I'm looking forward to your replies to post 103.  

Mike


----------



## Danjo

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Elder999,
> You've "hit the nail on the head" by noticing that several of the ranking are under one particular group or another. The Nindo Ryu ranks are under the auspices of that particular group and they are awarded by that group.The format is similar to "koryu" such as Katori Shinto Ryu or Yoshinkai Kobujutsu. As Mr. Parker's system and Mr. German's art are similar as well. As eluded to in an earlier post on this thread, If one has a well established knowledge of a given system or systems,it would be far easier to learn a similar style of art. If you as a miyama ryu jujutsu practitioner would study Danzan ryu Jujutsu, you would obviously find many similarities within that style and would be able to learn at an accelerated rate having a firm knowledge in a previous jujutsu style. As to whether I practice them "properly", well, that is up to my students who study under me and my direct subordinates in those given arts. I do actively teach many of those arts but not all. There are some that I specifically studied for my own personal knowledge and presently do not teach to the general public. Except upon request or lack of an instructor in that given art in my area.
> In regards to finding it "unneccesary", I would hope that you would look at other jujutsu styles to see similarities and differences to gain greater insight into those diverse aspects of your overall art.
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


 
Well if they're all virtually the same, then why train in them? Seems like resume' padding to me to do that. Plus, if high rank can legitimately be earned in that many styles in that short a period of time, then what does that say for either the martial art or those that did the awarding?

We've all seen footage of those one-man bands on TV. They're fun to watch for a while, but it hardly compares to a real orchestra which contains people who have spent their entire lives devoted to one or two instruments. It's a novelty act


----------



## KENPOJOE

Danjo said:


> Well if they're all virtually the same, then why train in them? Seems like resume' padding to me to do that. Plus, if high rank can legitimately be earned in that many styles in that short a period of time, then what does that say for either the martial art or those that did the awarding?
> 
> We've all seen footage of those one-man bands on TV. They're fun to watch for a while, but it hardly compares to a real orchestra which contains people who have spent their entire lives devoted to one or two instruments. It's a novelty act]
> 
> Hi folks!
> I've tried to answer the posts i find relevent in order posted but after this one,I can only say...
> I remember seeing a musician's home featured on a television and his house was literally lined with guitars...then it was mentioned that he actually played many diverse instruments,even though he was reknown for his guitar work.His name was Steven Howe of the band "Yes".
> Years later, I would be watching "Don Kirshner's Rock Concert" and heard him speak of a young 18 year old who could play 8 to 12 different instruments and had played ALL the instruments on his premeire album! I was so impressed I went to a rolling stones concert just to see him as opening act! His name was Prince Rogers Nelson,who the world knows as Prince.
> I am not a mere novelty act,although I do find it novel to laugh at times at those who don't know me and my accomplishments. I am reminded of am old Three Dog Night tune...
> "Ain't no two ways about it
> I just can't live without ya
> Let's get together, I can't wait forever
> Here I am, take my hand
> I'm your man
> Ain't no two ways about it
> I just got to shout
> Let's get together, I can't wait forever
> Here I am, take my hand
> I'm your man
> Baby, let me be your one man band, your one man band
> Baby, let me be your one man band, your one man band
> I just wanna be your one man, your one man band
> I just wanna be your one man, your one man band
> I just wanna be, I just wanna be
> I just wanna be your one man band
> I just wanna be, I just wanna be
> I just wanna be your one man band
> I just wanna be, I just wanna be
> I just wanna be your one man band
> I just wanna be, I just wanna be
> I just wanna be your one man ban', oooo"
> ...got to do that on karaoke sometime soon!
> ROFLMAO!:lfao:
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:


> I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank? Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it. I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?
> 
> The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?
> 
> Now, for myself, I've never been a rank chaser. I've been a 3rd for a while, and thats fine with me. I cross train in Arnis and BJJ. I have rank in Arnis, but never really had the desire to get any in BJJ. IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
I'll speak for myself. I started this stuff as a kid, on my 6th birthday almost 40 years ago. As a kid, the people I thopught were god were the black belts at the school. I got the early impression that proficiency and understanding were represented by the black belt rank; that training wasn't complete, until you got "there". So I started training for it.

I started in kenpo, but also trained in several other styles and systems. Again, I aimed for black. Judo, jujutsu. TKD...each time I started, it was with a finishing line in sight, and I would run like hell until I reached it. If the stryle was particularly interesting, I'd stick around. Learn more; in those events, a side effect of my interest in that particular approach often meant higher rank. But, upon reaching first black, I stopped aiming for rank; instead, I aimed for deeper understanding of something that fascinated my little ADHD mind.

There are a couple of styles/systems I started, but never made it to black in; too hard, too long, or I got what I really wanted and moved on, or an instructor passed away and I didn't want to learn from anyone else, etc. BJJ for example: purple belt. I got it when not many people even knew what BJJ was, and that body of knowledge with concurrant skill development was mroe than enough to serve me on the ground. I still wanted pretty ears, and none of the non-Brazilians I knew who stayed with it to black were still pretty. Plus, rumor was that the Brazilians didn't wanna give black ranks to any Americans...one of the only guys who did give it away did it for a check amount, so a black from him was typically laughed at.

Now, I sit and watch as guys who started after I got my black in my "home" art pass me in rank, and sky-rocket to the top, questionable skills in tow. My interest has switched from wanting more stripes on my belt, to wanting a different type of feather in my cap: A handful of really good students who can carry some good kenpo to the next generation. They may be all unaffiliated, low-ranking black beltss, but let their skills and understanding of the art be exemplary.

My take, anyways.

D.


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Are you guys saying that there are people in EPAK that accept and wear rank that they did not earn?  ;-0 WOW! 

 Maybe some instructors keep passing out rank because they don't have any knowledge to pass out? How else would they keep there students???

But if that is the case then the instructors have to start promoting themselves???? 

EPAK used to be the gold standard of what a black belt should be and that is gone.  These days it seems that the BJJ guys have that standard


----------



## Seabrook

John Bishop said:


> I would think that any decent 1st degree black belt would be able to demonstrate the curriculum of their system.
> But normally when one gets to the point of being 6th - 9th degree in a system, that rank usually represents 20 to 40+ plus years of active participation in that system.
> So how many lifetimes would it take for someone to actually earn several high ranks?


 
John,


Great post. I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Monadnock

Atlanta-Kenpo said:


> EPAK used to be the gold standard of what a black belt should be and that is gone. These days it seems that the BJJ guys have that standard


 
Hahahahahah! Are you kidding? Commercialism has been the ruin of the martial arts.


----------



## KENPOJOE

MJS said:


> Hey Jesse,
> 
> As I said in a few other posts, my intention was broad, and not specifically pointing to one person. I'm sure any of us can search the net and find people with high claims. I can't and won't speak for Joes skill as I have not seen him live. IMHO, I think youtube, while its a source for many things, is hard to form an accurate picture of someone. Way too many people use that or what they hear from others, to form an opinion.
> 
> One of my questions that I had asked earlier and think is important to the discussion is when I said this:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone starts at a young age, and trains in a few different arts, it is possible ot attain a high rank, but how are they going to be viewed? Maybe it doesnt bother them, but it would bother me, if I was walking around with 7 stripes on my belt and I was only 25.
> 
> As I've said before...impress me with you skill, not your rank. I've been training since I was 12. I'm going to be 34 on the 11th of this month. I'm a 3rd degree black belt. Probably should at least be 4th, maybe 5th by now. Doesn't matter to me though.
> 
> In closing, and I find myself repeating myself, but I think its necessary. My intentions were to discuss high rank and multiple arts.
> 
> Mike


[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']MJS wrote in post #28 regarding my listing of ranks[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, I wasn't going to mention any names, but....yes, this sums it up nicely. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']In post#39 he continues[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I'll start off by saying that I didn't start this thread to bash anyone. I mentioned no names in my initial post, but obviously those who are around the forums, can put two and two together. 

Many times, we hear people ask, "How is it possible to train in more than one art?" It is possible and speaking only for myself, I do it because I enjoy the arts that I train in. I don't do it to impress anyone, and I certainly don't do it for the rank. As I said earlier, one of the arts I train in, I have no desire to test for rank. For the amount of time I've put into training in Arnis, one would think that I'd be in the black belt ranks. Not the case though, as I'm still Brown. 

So, to someone who never trained before or someone who is very new to the arts, having X number of arts, high rank, pictures of themselves with 20 different Masters, or a wall full of awards and trophies, sure that'll look impressive. However, take someone who has been around a while, show them the same scenario and I'd bet some sort of red flag or question would arise. 

Can all this be accomplished? I don't know, but one would have to wonder how one would find the time to do all this, at what point in life one would have to start training to accomplish this. Frankly, I'm not fond of seeing an 8yo 2nd degree black belt, but is it realistic to have them be a 7th at age 18? I'm sure there are time frames for each level. So, that being said, is it realistic or possible to have high rank in 9 arts, and a 1st degree in 5?[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']In post #43 he responds to people mentioning about my career[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, the main point of this thread was to talk about high rank and multiple arts, not ones skill per se, although that does factor in and has factored in during some of the posts. I have not worked with Mr. Rebelo, so I can't comment on his skill. Something I don't like to do, is use a video clip to base my opinion of someones skill, but thats another thread. However, what we do have, is a visual list of rank and arts, so that is what the focus is, IMHO. 

Additionally, I'll state again, that my intention was not to single Mr. Rebelo out. I'm sure I can go online and research any number of Martial Artists and their rank. If you read my initial post, I mentioned no names.[/FONT]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Hi folks,[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Dear MJS,[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']After reading some of your posts, I have a question and an offer for you...[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I know of a young man who is an instructor at a studio in Cromwell,Connecticut. I have met him on a few occasions at events throughout New England and have always tried to assist him and discuss various martial arts. Are you him?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']If so, I'm surprised that you never asked me personally about my past training and various ranks...[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Now, here is my offer, you do not live that far away from my studio, please feel free to visit my studio, come by and train with me free for the day,pick any of the systems that I have rank in and i'll be more than happy to go over the material of that system FREE OF CHARGE. To show you what it is like to meet someone who is willing to open their doors to a martial artist that has questions regarding my credentials. Then, please feel free to report your findings to the board. This is not a challenge,rather an open offer to show you that I am who I say I am and so you can understand how someone does acheive the ranks and accolades that I have in my career. BTW, if you are not the person I previously mentioned, I will give you his name so you can contact him and ask his opinion.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I await your reply.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']BEGOOD,[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']KENPOJOE[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I await[/FONT]


----------



## Danjo

KENPOJOE said:


> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']MJS wrote in post #28 regarding my listing of ranks[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, I wasn't going to mention any names, but....yes, this sums it up nicely. [/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']In post#39 he continues[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I'll start off by saying that I didn't start this thread to bash anyone. I mentioned no names in my initial post, but obviously those who are around the forums, can put two and two together. [/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Many times, we hear people ask, "How is it possible to train in more than one art?" It is possible and speaking only for myself, I do it because I enjoy the arts that I train in. I don't do it to impress anyone, and I certainly don't do it for the rank. As I said earlier, one of the arts I train in, I have no desire to test for rank. For the amount of time I've put into training in Arnis, one would think that I'd be in the black belt ranks. Not the case though, as I'm still Brown. [/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']So, to someone who never trained before or someone who is very new to the arts, having X number of arts, high rank, pictures of themselves with 20 different Masters, or a wall full of awards and trophies, sure that'll look impressive. However, take someone who has been around a while, show them the same scenario and I'd bet some sort of red flag or question would arise. [/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Can all this be accomplished? I don't know, but one would have to wonder how one would find the time to do all this, at what point in life one would have to start training to accomplish this. Frankly, I'm not fond of seeing an 8yo 2nd degree black belt, but is it realistic to have them be a 7th at age 18? I'm sure there are time frames for each level. So, that being said, is it realistic or possible to have high rank in 9 arts, and a 1st degree in 5?[/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']In post #43 he responds to people mentioning about my career[/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, the main point of this thread was to talk about high rank and multiple arts, not ones skill per se, although that does factor in and has factored in during some of the posts. I have not worked with Mr. Rebelo, so I can't comment on his skill. Something I don't like to do, is use a video clip to base my opinion of someones skill, but thats another thread. However, what we do have, is a visual list of rank and arts, so that is what the focus is, IMHO. [/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Additionally, I'll state again, that my intention was not to single Mr. Rebelo out. I'm sure I can go online and research any number of Martial Artists and their rank. If you read my initial post, I mentioned no names.[/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Hi folks,[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Dear MJS,[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']After reading some of your posts, I have a question and an offer for you...[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I know of a young man who is an instructor at a studio in Cromwell,Connecticut. I have met him on a few occasions at events throughout New England and have always tried to assist him and discuss various martial arts. Are you him?[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']If so, I'm surprised that you never asked me personally about my past training and various ranks...[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Now, here is my offer, you do not live that far away from my studio, please feel free to visit my studio, come by and train with me free for the day,pick any of the systems that I have rank in and i'll be more than happy to go over the material of that system FREE OF CHARGE. To show you what it is like to meet someone who is willing to open their doors to a martial artist that has questions regarding my credentials. Then, please feel free to report your findings to the board. This is not a challenge,rather an open offer to show you that I am who I say I am and so you can understand how someone does acheive the ranks and accolades that I have in my career. BTW, if you are not the person I previously mentioned, I will give you his name so you can contact him and ask his opinion.[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I await your reply.[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']BEGOOD,[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']KENPOJOE[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I await[/font]


 
Apparently the one thing you _DON'T_ have a high rank in is using the quote function on this forum.


----------



## MJS

KENPOJOE said:


> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']MJS wrote in post #28 regarding my listing of ranks[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, I wasn't going to mention any names, but....yes, this sums it up nicely. [/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']In post#39 he continues[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I'll start off by saying that I didn't start this thread to bash anyone. I mentioned no names in my initial post, but obviously those who are around the forums, can put two and two together. [/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Many times, we hear people ask, "How is it possible to train in more than one art?" It is possible and speaking only for myself, I do it because I enjoy the arts that I train in. I don't do it to impress anyone, and I certainly don't do it for the rank. As I said earlier, one of the arts I train in, I have no desire to test for rank. For the amount of time I've put into training in Arnis, one would think that I'd be in the black belt ranks. Not the case though, as I'm still Brown. [/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']So, to someone who never trained before or someone who is very new to the arts, having X number of arts, high rank, pictures of themselves with 20 different Masters, or a wall full of awards and trophies, sure that'll look impressive. However, take someone who has been around a while, show them the same scenario and I'd bet some sort of red flag or question would arise. [/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Can all this be accomplished? I don't know, but one would have to wonder how one would find the time to do all this, at what point in life one would have to start training to accomplish this. Frankly, I'm not fond of seeing an 8yo 2nd degree black belt, but is it realistic to have them be a 7th at age 18? I'm sure there are time frames for each level. So, that being said, is it realistic or possible to have high rank in 9 arts, and a 1st degree in 5?[/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']In post #43 he responds to people mentioning about my career[/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Well, the main point of this thread was to talk about high rank and multiple arts, not ones skill per se, although that does factor in and has factored in during some of the posts. I have not worked with Mr. Rebelo, so I can't comment on his skill. Something I don't like to do, is use a video clip to base my opinion of someones skill, but thats another thread. However, what we do have, is a visual list of rank and arts, so that is what the focus is, IMHO. [/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Additionally, I'll state again, that my intention was not to single Mr. Rebelo out. I'm sure I can go online and research any number of Martial Artists and their rank. If you read my initial post, I mentioned no names.[/font]
> 
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Hi folks,[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Dear MJS,[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']After reading some of your posts, I have a question and an offer for you...[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I know of a young man who is an instructor at a studio in Cromwell,Connecticut. I have met him on a few occasions at events throughout New England and have always tried to assist him and discuss various martial arts. Are you him?[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']If so, I'm surprised that you never asked me personally about my past training and various ranks...[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Now, here is my offer, you do not live that far away from my studio, please feel free to visit my studio, come by and train with me free for the day,pick any of the systems that I have rank in and i'll be more than happy to go over the material of that system FREE OF CHARGE. To show you what it is like to meet someone who is willing to open their doors to a martial artist that has questions regarding my credentials. Then, please feel free to report your findings to the board. This is not a challenge,rather an open offer to show you that I am who I say I am and so you can understand how someone does acheive the ranks and accolades that I have in my career. BTW, if you are not the person I previously mentioned, I will give you his name so you can contact him and ask his opinion.[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I await your reply.[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']BEGOOD,[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']KENPOJOE[/font]
> [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I await[/font]


 
LOL, well, I must say, that was hard to read.  Joe, to answer your question.  I have never met you.  I believe you may be referring to a guy, also named Joe.  Tall, slender, blonde hair, trains at Cromwell Martial Arts in Middletown, Ct.  I believe I saw a pic online of him, you and a few others at a seminar.  

As for your offer...I'd be happy to drive up to your school for a workout.  Dinner and drinks are on me afterwards. 

Again Joe, my questions were not on your skill, but on the number of high ranks and time frame to get them.  

Mike


----------



## Gentle Fist

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> There are a couple of styles/systems I started, but never made it to black in; too hard, too long, or I got what I really wanted and moved on, or an instructor passed away and I didn't want to learn from anyone else, etc. BJJ for example: purple belt. I got it when not many people even knew what BJJ was, and that body of knowledge with concurrant skill development was mroe than enough to serve me on the ground. I still wanted pretty ears, and none of the non-Brazilians I knew who stayed with it to black were still pretty. Plus, rumor was that the Brazilians didn't wanna give black ranks to any Americans...one of the only guys who did give it away did it for a check amount, so a black from him was typically laughed at.


 

I agree with the ugly ears comment.  I am a blue in bjj and coming up on purple.  Most of the guys purple and higher have at least one dog-chewed ear piece.  But it comes with the turf in that art, much like the torn up shoulders and ripped up feet from judo.  I prefer judo and bjj over any version of kenpo I have seen just due to the nature of randori and ridiculous time in grade one has to endure.  You will never see a 10th dan in judo that is under 80, much less 40....


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

fistlaw720 said:


> I agree with the ugly ears comment. I am a blue in bjj and coming up on purple. Most of the guys purple and higher have at least one dog-chewed ear piece. But it comes with the turf in that art, much like the torn up shoulders and ripped up feet from judo. I prefer judo and bjj over any version of kenpo I have seen just *due to the nature of randori and ridiculous time in grade one has to endure. You will never see a 10th dan in judo that is under 80, much less 40*....


 
Ain't it great?


----------



## terryl965

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Terry Stoker
-MT Senior Moderator


----------



## Josh Oakley

"Karate here" (points to head) "Karate here" (points to heart) "Karate never here" (points to imaginary belt) "Understand, Daniel-san?"


----------



## dianhsuhe

So Kenpojoe,

     How did you achieve those high ranks in soo many systems?  It seems I only caught your song lyrics and all the "quoting" and missed the ACTUAL answer.

Cheers


----------



## searcher

I appologize ahead of time for chiming in so late and not taking the time to read all of the previous posts.

I would like to raise a question, What about training in two or more styles at one time?   An example would be, Karate and Kobudo.   It is poretty common to have the two studied simultaneously and rank earned accordingly.   I am also not sure what is considered "high" rank by any of you, 4th, 5th, 6th, ....

Not trying to stir it up more than it already is.   Just curious.


----------



## kidswarrior

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I'll speak for myself.
> 
> Now, I sit and watch as guys who started after I got my black in my "home" art pass me in rank, and sky-rocket to the top, questionable skills in tow. *My interest has switched from wanting more stripes on my belt, to wanting a different type of feather in my cap: A handful of really good students who can carry some good kenpo to the next generation.* They may be all unaffiliated, low-ranking black beltss, but let their skills and understanding of the art be exemplary.
> 
> My take, anyways.
> 
> D.


Couldn't agree more, Dave. Getting older and gaining experience has its advantages, huh? (Not that you're anywhere near my age  but you're...well, you ain't as young as ya used to be :wink1. We can stop focusing on ourselves and start thinking about investing in our legacy--our 'awards' all have two-legs. Refreshing to hear this from someone else. I know Doc has also said similar things in previous posts.


----------



## MJS

searcher said:


> I appologize ahead of time for chiming in so late and not taking the time to read all of the previous posts.
> 
> I would like to raise a question, What about training in two or more styles at one time? An example would be, Karate and Kobudo. It is poretty common to have the two studied simultaneously and rank earned accordingly. I am also not sure what is considered "high" rank by any of you, 4th, 5th, 6th, ....
> 
> Not trying to stir it up more than it already is. Just curious.


 
Thanks for chiming in and no, you're not stirring anything up.  

I think its already been addressed in some other posts, regarding the number of arts.  It seems that the consensus is that being high ranked in 1 or 2 isnt really an issue, but the question of multiple arts with high rank, high rank being defined IMO as being 7th, 8th, 9th degree.


----------



## Danjo

searcher said:


> I appologize ahead of time for chiming in so late and not taking the time to read all of the previous posts.
> 
> I would like to raise a question, What about training in two or more styles at one time? An example would be, Karate and Kobudo. It is poretty common to have the two studied simultaneously and rank earned accordingly. I am also not sure what is considered "high" rank by any of you, 4th, 5th, 6th, ....
> 
> Not trying to stir it up more than it already is. Just curious.


 
I'd say anything 5th degree or over would be "High Rank" since that's the level at which most arts recognize "Mastery". Some styles never give out rank above 4th unless you're an instructor.


----------



## searcher

Thanks for the clarification guys.   I would have to say that if some styles are complimentary that having a high rank would not be any big deal.   But I do see many that have BB rank of 5th dan or higher in multiples and I am in agreement with you all.   I, myself, have 6th in Chito-ryu and 5th in Okinawan Kobudo as well as lower rank in a few other styles.   I am hoping to get the knowledge that would come with higher rank in 2 other styles, but the actual rank is of little importance.   My two primary styles go hand in hand as well as some other styles I have had the chance to study.   I would love to get my BB in EPAK(the first karate style I studied), but I don't think I am young enough to get a "high" rank.   No big deal.


----------



## Dr John M La Tourrette

MJS said:


> I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank? Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it. I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?
> 
> The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?


 
I'm curious to why you think that "wanting more knowledge" is an obsession with high rank?

Would you be happy to be in the first grade for 20 years, going over the same crapola day after day, month after month and year after year?

Did you know that in the same amount of time, 20 years, any average person with a focused goal can go through kindergarden, 6 years of grade school, 3 years of Jr. High School, 3 years of High School, 4 years of college, and earn a Ph.D?

I'm curious to why you think that is not okay?

Some of us have been "banging" around in the martial arts for many, many years. Back in 1950 boxing was the thing. Then in the late 50's and early 60's, Juijitsu and Judo were the thing. Then taekwondo became the thing. Then Kung fu became the thing. Then Arnis became the thing. For many of us Kenpo was the thing. Now cage caca is the thing.

My point being, we lived though the different menus and we partook of the food out there.

And, being 19 with multiple black belts might be really fraudulent.

Being in their sixties and savoring what was there back then is just "they were enterprising".

And even though many people do have multiple ranks, they normally end up teaching one style that they love, and NOT all the styles that they went through in 50 years of training and of having tremendous fun.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com


----------



## MJS

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> I'm curious to why you think that "wanted more knowledge" is an obsession with right rank?
> 
> Would you be happy to be in the first grade for 20 years, going over the same crapola day after day, month after month and year after year?
> 
> Did you know that in the same amount of time, 20 years, any average person with a focused goal can go through kindergarden, 6 years of grade school, 3 years of Jr. High School, 3 years of High School, 4 years of college, and earn a Ph.D?
> 
> I'm curious to why you think that is not okay?
> 
> Some of us have been "banging" around in the martial arts for many, many years. Back in 1950 boxing was the thing. Then in the late 50's and early 60's, Juijitsu and Judo were the thing. Then taekwondo became the thing. Then Kung fu became the thing. Then Arnis became the thing. For many of us Kenpo was the thing. Now cage caca is the thing.
> 
> My point being, we lived though the different menus and we partook of the food out there.
> 
> And, being 19 and with multiple black belts might be really fraudulent.
> 
> Being in their sixties and savoring what was there back then is just "were enterprising".
> 
> And even though many people do have multiple ranks, they normally end up teaching one style that they love, and NOT all the styles that they went through in 50 years of training and of having tremendous fun.
> 
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette
> www.realspeedhitting.com


 
Hi John,

Quick question for you.  Did you read thru the entire thread, or did you just form an opinion off of my first post?  

As for your questions...as I have said in other posts in this thread, there is nothing wrong with crosstraining in more than one art.  One, two, even three.  My point of this thread was training in many arts, and being ranked 7th and 8th degree.  I, as well as a few others have asked how this was possible, but I never got an aswer, which doesnt surprise me.  I mean really...is it that difficult to answer the question of how one person, considering that I'm sure there're time frames for each rank, can acheive multiple 7th and 8th degrees in a short amount of time.


----------



## Dr John M La Tourrette

searcher said:


> I would like to raise a question, What about training in two or more styles at one time? An example would be, Karate and Kobudo. It is poretty common to have the two studied simultaneously and rank earned accordingly. I am also not sure what is considered "high" rank by any of you, 4th, 5th, 6th, ....


 
A very valid comment.

Many of us have run our own schools for years.

And we have people coming in with their own skills that want to trade those skills for our skills.

For example, back in the mid 70's Tim Bryne came into my studio with a wealth of knowledge in Taiji and in Wing Chun, but he didn't know kenpo and he could not spar worth a damn.

He was also broke, and I thought it would be interesting to learn Taiji and Wing Chun. So we became friends and students of each other.

Even though the mainstay of that studio in Boise was kenpo karate, we practiced other skills in our off time.

Many interesting people have came through my studios during the past 37 years of earning a living through the teaching of the martial arts.

Thank you for your clarity.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com


----------



## Dr John M La Tourrette

MJS said:


> As for your questions...as I have said in other posts in this thread, there is nothing wrong with crosstraining in more than one art. One, two, even three.


 
Haha!

So, any rank after 3 must be non-valid, in your mind?

I do NOT get your logic. You are NOT taking time, enthusiasm, massive dedication and the structures of possibility into account.

And in that post you are referencing is the answer to this last post and those questions of yours.

I suggest you reread it and then ask specific questions so I've a clue to what you are referencing.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. I did meet Kenpojoe at the Gathering of Eagles 2007 and the HOF, and I liked him. We talked over old friends with each other.


----------



## MJS

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Haha!
> 
> So, any rank after 3 must be non-valid, in your mind?
> 
> I do NOT get your logic. You are NOT taking time, enthusiasm, massive dedication and the structures of possibility into account.
> 
> And in that post you are referencing is the answer to this last post and those questions of yours.
> 
> I suggest you reread it and then ask specific questions so I've a clue to what you are referencing.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette
> Ps. I did meet Kenpojoe at the Gathering of Eagles 2007 and the HOF, and I liked him. We talked over old friends with each other.


 
sigh...ok John, I'll start again.  Take a look at this please.



> "Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
> 8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
> 5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
> 4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
> 1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
> 1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
> SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
> SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
> INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
> World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
> [*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "


 
As I said..people can train in as many arts as they want...my question was, is it possible to do all this?  How much time is needed?  Considering ones age and time in the arts.  In your opinion, how long should it take someone to reach 8th degree?  What about 5th?  

What about you?  In your profile you say you've been training for 37yrs and are a 10th dan.
*Primary Art and Ranking*: 10 Dan Kenpo Karate, 37 years  

Now, I'm sure during your time in the arts, youve done alot of training.  Do you hold rank in any other arts aside from Kenpo?  

My point being John, once again...is it possible to train in multiple arts and hold multiple high ranks?  Many times you'll see people say that it takes a lifetime to master an art.  How many lifetimes does it take to get an 8th degree and a few 5ths?


----------



## Dr John M La Tourrette

dianhsuhe said:


> There just is not enough time on Earth to accomplish those ranks with any legitimacy, in my opinion.
> 
> It does seem though that many systems do not have criteria required for the higher ranks (techniques, forms, weapons, healing, etc.) it seems more closely related to who you know, friends promoting each other to high ranks in arts based on their "contribution to the martial arts" and general "time in the arts". Masters promoting each other all over the place or creating their own style when they hit the wall in a given style.
> 
> I suppose I am just unlucky since I chose an art that has CRITERIA for EVERY dan rank, 1st to 10th dan. So I cannot just go to a tournament and teach for awhile and get promoted- I have to gain competence in new material that is challenging so say the least. LOL
> 
> One of our instructors left the org. years ago as a Shodan with 7 years of training and now has the title of "Professor" and a 7th dan that was voted on by a board of directors from different styles. No thank you---I will take the knowledge and honor my instructors and style until there is no more to learn.
> 
> Cheers


 
A very intelligent post.

Thank you.

I also had the above happen to me. I sold a studio in 1997, to a 1st dan, and the next year he claimed a 5th dan, and now he claims a 7th dan.

Interesting to say the least. He is oriental and seems to have completely fooled the buying public. Why do I say that? Because he is still in business, and it's 10 years later.

On the other hand, back in the mid-80's I trained a fellow who was a vietnam vet and a tribal chief. He came to me to have me clean up the Master Keys of a system he learned while in vietnam over 3 tours of duty. So I helped him clean it up, and he awared me "rank" in his system of which I really do NOT know, nor really want to know anything about.

I was helping a friend of mine, who also was in the military at the same time I was.

So that rank is one that was and will be NEVER claimed.

But my friendship with him will continue on and on.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com


----------



## MJS

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Haha!
> 
> So, any rank after 3 must be non-valid, in your mind?
> 
> I do NOT get your logic. You are NOT taking time, enthusiasm, massive dedication and the structures of possibility into account.
> 
> And in that post you are referencing is the answer to this last post and those questions of yours.
> 
> I suggest you reread it and then ask specific questions so I've a clue to what you are referencing.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette
> Ps. I did meet Kenpojoe at the Gathering of Eagles 2007 and the HOF, and I liked him. We talked over old friends with each other.


 
Additionally John, please don't twist my words to suit your needs.  1, 2 and 3 is simply an example.  But, if you're training in 1 art or 10 arts, is it possible to get an 8th degree in all of them?  What about an 8th and a few 5ths?


----------



## Dr John M La Tourrette

MJS said:


> sigh...ok John, I'll start again. Take a look at this please.
> 
> As I said..people can train in as many arts as they want...my question was, is it possible to do all this? How much time is needed? Considering ones age and time in the arts. In your opinion, how long should it take someone to reach 8th degree? What about 5th?
> 
> What about you? In your profile you say you've been training for 37yrs and are a 10th dan.
> *Primary Art and Ranking*: 10 Dan Kenpo Karate, 37 years
> 
> Now, I'm sure during your time in the arts, youve done alot of training. Do you hold rank in any other arts aside from Kenpo?
> 
> My point being John, once again...is it possible to train in multiple arts and hold multiple high ranks? Many times you'll see people say that it takes a lifetime to master an art. How many lifetimes does it take to get an 8th degree and a few 5ths?


 
So this is a kenpojoe thing?

I've met kenpojoe and I did appreciate him.

He was honorable with me, and I virtually know nothing about his skills or his past training with the exception that he's read my books and watched my DVD's, and that he was on an Ed Parker seminar video from 1985 (thereabouts).

I will NOT valid any rank of his since he is NOT my student. I will NOT disrespect him, because I just DON'T KNOW. I think that is reasonable and fair.

And if it's a "me" thing, I suggest you type my name into the search engine of this group and notice where I've already answered that question, ONCE.

I also was asked by Mr. Broad on kenpotalk about a year ago to give a history, so I did. If anyone is interesting they can go there and find it...

...or I can repost it here since I've a copy of it somewhere.

Which I think was very respectful of me.

Don't you?

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com


----------



## Dr John M La Tourrette

MJS said:


> What about you? In your profile you say you've been training for 37yrs and are a 10th dan.
> *Primary Art and Ranking*: 10 Dan Kenpo Karate, 37 years


 
I am NOT twisting what you say.

YOU are IGNORING what I say, and attempting to twist whatever I say to some preconceived premise that you have.

I did NOT say that I've been training 37 years.

I DID say that "I've been training in KENPO KARATE for 37 years".

A big difference my friend.

I'd already been in the martial arts for TWENTY YEARS when I started training with DD (a student of Steve Fox) in 1970, who was also a student of mine when I was teaching at the Medford Judo & Karate Academy back then.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com


----------



## MJS

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> So this is a kenpojoe thing?


 
No, this is a high rank/multiple art thing.  Joe was brought into this by someone else.  If you had read the prior posts, I'm sure you would have seen that. 



> I've met kenpojoe and I did appreciate him.
> 
> He was honorable with me, and I virtually know nothing about his skills or his past training with the exception that he's read my books and watched my DVD's, and that he was on an Ed Parker seminar video from 1985 (thereabouts).
> 
> I will NOT valid any rank of his since he is NOT my student. I will NOT disrespect him, because I just DON'T KNOW. I think that is reasonable and fair.


 
Not asking you to vouch for him John. Im asking you if, in your opinion, you think that anyone, not just Joe, is capable of this feat.  



> And if it's a "me" thing, I suggest you type my name into the search engine of this group and notice where I've already answered that question, ONCE.
> 
> I also was asked by Mr. Broad on kenpotalk about a year ago to give a history, so I did. If anyone is interesting they can go there and find it...
> 
> ...or I can repost it here since I've a copy of it somewhere.
> 
> Which I think was very respectful of me.
> 
> Don't you?
> 
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette
> www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com


 
There ya go again, putting words in my mouth.  I asked a simple question, in hopes of getting a simple reply.  Once again, I'm simply looking for feedback.  I do find it interesting though, that I still havent received an answer to my question that I asked a while back on this thread.  Like I said, I'm not surprised though. 

But seeing that you're suggesting that I search Kenpotalk for your bio, I may suggest that you take the time to read thru the posts from the beginning.  I'm sure many of your questions to my views on this subject will be answered. 

Mike


----------



## MJS

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> I am NOT twisting what you say.
> 
> YOU are IGNORING what I say, and attempting to twist whatever I say to some preconceived premise that you have.
> 
> I did NOT say that I've been training 37 years.
> 
> I DID say that "I've been training in KENPO KARATE for 37 years".
> 
> A big difference my friend.
> 
> I'd already been in the martial arts for TWENTY YEARS when I started training with DD (a student of Steve Fox) in 1970, who was also a student of mine when I was teaching at the Medford Judo & Karate Academy back then.
> 
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette
> www.realspeedhitting.com


 
Ok..a simple misunderstanding.  Gee John, it happens all the time on forums.   So I have this right now...you've trained in Kenpo for 37yrs and are a 10th dan.  Do you hold rank in any other art(s)?

And actually, I was referring to when you asked me if I was now directing this thread to you.



> And if it's a "me" thing, I suggest you type my name into the search engine of this group and notice where I've already answered that question, ONCE.



Mike


----------



## MJS

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> I'm curious to why you think that "wanting more knowledge" is an obsession with high rank?


 
Hmmm..why do you think this is what I mean?  You don't need to wear an 8th or a 10th to have knowledge John.  See, this is what I've said in other posts on here.  Impress me with your skill, not the number of stripes on your belt.  I'll point out a few places I've said it.  In my first post.  Not sure if you saw it though, because you didn't quote the entire post.  I also said it in post #27.  Again, it may be a good idea to read all the posts, not just a few of them. 

People think that if they have alot of flash, other will "oohhh and ahhh" and it'll make them feel good.  Sorry, I dont do that.  Like I said..impress me with what you can do, not the fancy stripes or bars.


----------



## Danjo

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> I'm curious to why you think that "wanting more knowledge" is an obsession with high rank?
> 
> Would you be happy to be in the first grade for 20 years, going over the same crapola day after day, month after month and year after year?
> 
> Did you know that in the same amount of time, 20 years, any average person with a focused goal can go through kindergarden, 6 years of grade school, 3 years of Jr. High School, 3 years of High School, 4 years of college, and earn a Ph.D?
> 
> I'm curious to why you think that is not okay?
> 
> Some of us have been "banging" around in the martial arts for many, many years. Back in 1950 boxing was the thing. Then in the late 50's and early 60's, Juijitsu and Judo were the thing. Then taekwondo became the thing. Then Kung fu became the thing. Then Arnis became the thing. For many of us Kenpo was the thing. Now cage caca is the thing.
> 
> My point being, we lived though the different menus and we partook of the food out there.
> 
> And, being 19 with multiple black belts might be really fraudulent.
> 
> Being in their sixties and savoring what was there back then is just "they were enterprising".
> 
> And even though many people do have multiple ranks, they normally end up teaching one style that they love, and NOT all the styles that they went through in 50 years of training and of having tremendous fun.
> 
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette
> www.realspeedhitting.com


 

I think that the point of this thread is centered upon the concept of "EARN". When we think of people that are highly ranked we think of someone that has spent years and years in an art. During those years, that person is going through different phases of development and refinement. Up to black belt, one is spending most of one's time mastering the basic core curriculum to a certain level of expertise and absorbing the core concepts of the art. After black, one is spending time refining one's material through practice and instruction (one only _really_ learns what one can teach to a variety of students IMO) which develops the nuances that one didn't get on the way to black belt because so much time was focussed on learning the material sequentially. In addition, there will inevitably be new material to aquire after this rank. After other degrees are reached, one might even innovate a bit and bring new techniques into the art etc. after the essence of the art has been sufficiently internalized. In the most advanced ranks, the value of the master of the art is that of an instructor that can and does bring out skill and ability in students ala great teachers and coaches such as Cus Damato, Eddie Futch, Angelo Dundee, Helio Gracie, Ed Parker, Adriano Emperado, Ginchin Funakoshi etc. etc.

To me, the rank of fifth degree or above indicates those that have done and can do this. These people I describe have unquestionably EARNED their status and rank.

When one sees many high ranks, one has to ask oneself if it is really possible to EARN that rank legitimately given what I've outlined above. How much has truly been given to each art for that to have been achieved? Or, conversely, if it IS that easy to EARN rank in the arts listed, how good can those arts really be?


----------



## Perpetual White Belt

There are also instances where arts are similar enough that if you were to switch style (either by choice or circumstance) you would start at a higher level than a total novice.  When I first broke away from my Okinawa Kenpo instruction  as a Sandan (due to a difference of opinion we'll say, not because I didn't care for the art.  Still do even though said circumstance prevents me from propagating the art.) I contemplated a switch to Tang Soo Do since there was an instructor close by.  When I visited the school and spoke to the owner/head instructor I was told that I'd come into the class as a probabtionary black belt because the kata I knew were close to the hyung they did.  I tried talking my way into coming in as a white belt, but he wouldn't budge.  I never did take the classes because I began to develop a great relationship with GM Max Pallen of Senkotiros arnis and opened a school passing on his art...  Wow.. I kinda got off subject...  Anyway, the point is sometimes it's like credits that transfer from one college to another or testing out of some classes toward your degree.  Does that make sense?


----------



## John Bishop

Perpetual White Belt said:


> There are also instances where arts are similar enough that if you were to switch style (either by choice or circumstance) you would start at a higher level than a total novice.  When I first broke away from my Okinawa Kenpo instruction  as a Sandan (due to a difference of opinion we'll say, not because I didn't care for the art.  Still do even though said circumstance prevents me from propagating the art.) I contemplated a switch to Tang Soo Do since there was an instructor close by.  When I visited the school and spoke to the owner/head instructor I was told that I'd come into the class as a probabtionary black belt because the kata I knew were close to the hyung they did.



That's much more understandable then someone goes into another system and is ranked at 6th,7th,8th degree.


----------



## KENPOJOE

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> So this is a kenpojoe thing?
> 
> I've met kenpojoe and I did appreciate him.
> 
> He was honorable with me, and I virtually know nothing about his skills or his past training with the exception that he's read my books and watched my DVD's, and that he was on an Ed Parker seminar video from 1985 (thereabouts).
> 
> I will NOT valid any rank of his since he is NOT my student. I will NOT disrespect him, because I just DON'T KNOW. I think that is reasonable and fair.
> 
> And if it's a "me" thing, I suggest you type my name into the search engine of this group and notice where I've already answered that question, ONCE.
> 
> I also was asked by Mr. Broad on kenpotalk about a year ago to give a history, so I did. If anyone is interesting they can go there and find it...
> 
> ...or I can repost it here since I've a copy of it somewhere.
> 
> Which I think was very respectful of me.
> 
> Don't you?
> 
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette
> www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com


 
Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Latourette,
Basically you are right. This thread has become more of a "let's attempt to discredit Kenpo Joe" thread than a general thread on a given topic. I've been the only person honest enough to accually address this issue because it became obvious that this thread and another recent one like it was aimed at me from information gleamed from my website. I have made an offer in good standing and friendship to the MJS to visit my studio and to go over my martial arts career and credentials and that's all I can do to "remedy" his present opinion of me personally. 
I agree with you completely regarding your statements.
It was an honor to finally meet you as well attend your seminar at the GOTE2007. I am sorry that I did not get a chance to interview you at that time & I know that we would have had a great time!
Yes, I do indeed have all of Mr. Latourette's books and some of his video tapes as well and it was great to finally meet the man himself!
If these individuals wish to continue this thread in the allegedly "non-personal" intent, then let them mention other instructors other than one of my dead instructors or myself.
Thank you for your time,
KENPOJOE


----------



## MJS

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Mr. Latourette,
> Basically you are right. This thread has become more of a "let's attempt to discredit Kenpo Joe" thread than a general thread on a given topic. I've been the only person honest enough to accually address this issue because it became obvious that this thread and another recent one like it was aimed at me from information gleamed from my website. I have made an offer in good standing and friendship to the MJS to visit my studio and to go over my martial arts career and credentials and that's all I can do to "remedy" his present opinion of me personally.
> I agree with you completely regarding your statements.
> It was an honor to finally meet you as well attend your seminar at the GOTE2007. I am sorry that I did not get a chance to interview you at that time & I know that we would have had a great time!
> Yes, I do indeed have all of Mr. Latourette's books and some of his video tapes as well and it was great to finally meet the man himself!
> If these individuals wish to continue this thread in the allegedly "non-personal" intent, then let them mention other instructors other than one of my dead instructors or myself.
> Thank you for your time,
> KENPOJOE


 
HI Joe,

Just as a reminder, when I started this thread, it was a general question.  Your name came up from someone and it went from there.  A few of us, myself included, have asked questions, only to have them avoided.  By all means, if its something you'd rather not talk about on here, feel free to PM me.  As for coming down to your school...yes, I'd be happy to and as I said, dinner and drinks on me afterwards.  Once the holidays are over and things settle down for me a little at work, perhaps we can set something up.

Mike


----------



## The Last Legionary

The problem with so many of these so called "high ranks" is that they are nothing more than cert collectors. They get cross ranked into their buddies arts having rarely and sometimes never stepped foot on those floors or done those arts. They get other scum suckers like themselves to sign off on those certs, toss a few "super sokes" in the mix, and suddenly they themselves are great grandfarters of their own partial art.

15 blackbelts, lots of 7ths 8ths 9ths and even 10th dans on the paper, maybe even a few degrees from some mail order degree mill, and next thing you know, you got these ego driven paper tigers. Want to know who they are? There's a whole site out there dedicated to roasting and reaming their sorry scab asses.

So, sucks if ol' "No Show" thinks it's all about him. It ain't. But maybe he protests too much.

To the "multi-ranked High Boys" here, before you open your yaps and start typing with your feet, answer this question:

How much floor time did you put in specifically training the arts you have those dans in?
I don't mean total.  20 years trainings great, God Bless You.
But if it looks like this:
10 years Gong Fu - 8th dan
6 months Tae Mui Sho - 7th dan
6 weeks - Sent in my video waiting for my glass ring soke do

Then save your spittle and whatnot, because I don't care, and neither should anyone competent.



VI


----------



## MJS

The Last Legionary said:


> The problem with so many of these so called "high ranks" is that they are nothing more than cert collectors. They get cross ranked into their buddies arts having rarely and sometimes never stepped foot on those floors or done those arts. They get other scum suckers like themselves to sign off on those certs, toss a few "super sokes" in the mix, and suddenly they themselves are great grandfarters of their own partial art.
> 
> 15 blackbelts, lots of 7ths 8ths 9ths and even 10th dans on the paper, maybe even a few degrees from some mail order degree mill, and next thing you know, you got these ego driven paper tigers. Want to know who they are? There's a whole site out there dedicated to roasting and reaming their sorry scab asses.
> 
> So, sucks if ol' "No Show" thinks it's all about him. It ain't. But maybe he protests too much.
> 
> To the "multi-ranked High Boys" here, before you open your yaps and start typing with your feet, answer this question:
> 
> How much floor time did you put in specifically training the arts you have those dans in?
> I don't mean total. 20 years trainings great, God Bless You.
> But if it looks like this:
> 10 years Gong Fu - 8th dan
> 6 months Tae Mui Sho - 7th dan
> 6 weeks - Sent in my video waiting for my glass ring soke do
> 
> Then save your spittle and whatnot, because I don't care, and neither should anyone competent.
> 
> 
> 
> VI


 
I have asked the same question regarding the time frame, and I never got an answer.  This doesn't surprise me, but hey, the silence speaks more than the words themselves sometimes.   If there was nothing to be ashamed of, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be discussed.  Its when one is presented with a direct question, and it goes unanswered.  

Mike


----------



## kidswarrior

Danjo said:


> I think that the point of this thread is centered upon the concept of "EARN". When we think of people that are highly ranked we think of someone that has spent years and years in an art. During those years, that person is going through different phases of development and refinement. Up to black belt, one is spending most of one's time mastering the basic core curriculum to a certain level of expertise and absorbing the core concepts of the art. After black, one is spending time refining one's material through practice and instruction (one only _really_ learns what one can teach to a variety of students IMO) which develops the nuances that one didn't get on the way to black belt because so much time was focussed on learning the material sequentially. In addition, there will inevitably be new material to aquire after this rank. After other degrees are reached, one might even innovate a bit and bring new techniques into the art etc. after the essence of the art has been sufficiently internalized.


While I don't have a dog in this hunt, this bit from Danjo really struck a chord with me. This seems to be how my martial path has played out. As for others' paths, all I can say is I'm at MT to learn and possibly to share if someone really asks, but I stopped judging others when I began to see 50 looming/started AA almost eight years ago. Is this OT? Maybe. Take it for what it's worth.


----------



## RevIV

Ok,
I am going to throw this out there.  I will have KenpoJoe at my dojo as an honored guest.  Anyone who wants to see what he has been talking about is more than welcome to come to the seminar.  I have not personally called him or asked him yet but i do know he will be there when a date is picked (he is always willing to share info).  This will not happen until early spring so everyone will have time to make plans and come in.  I will not let the event get out of hand and become a he said she said event- and disrespectful people will be asked to leave at my discretion (where as far as im concerned should be the rule for anyones school) it will be fun and educational for all.  Maybe i'll bring in some other instructors who i respect and we can make a full day out of it, And then MJS can buy me a drink instead of Joe because i have never seen KenpoJoe drink anything but milk at social events.
Jesse E. Dwire IV
www.dpkempo.com


----------



## LawDog

RevIV,
May I attend your event? I would like to see Rudy again.


----------



## kidswarrior

LawDog said:


> RevIV,
> May I attend your event? I would like to see Rudy again.


I'd love to come, but hard to get away from work. And Lowell is a looooong way from CA.


----------



## LawDog

By wagon train it should only take you three to four months.
:yoda:


----------



## kidswarrior

LawDog said:


> By wagon train it should only take you three to four months.
> :yoda:


OH, yeah, go ahead and pick on me because of my age.  Oh, you mean I could fly? With my luck I'd get to the airport and find out they'd just changed the rules to no luggage at all. Last time I flew, was just boarding the plane for a 2 1/2 hour flight out of an *international* airport, when they announced that the plane's lavatories were out of service for the entire flight.  Naw, gimme the wagons and oxen. 

Okay, seriously OT, so to keep anyone but me from possible reprimand, returning to your regularly scheduled broadcast.


----------



## MJS

RevIV said:


> Ok,
> I am going to throw this out there. I will have KenpoJoe at my dojo as an honored guest. Anyone who wants to see what he has been talking about is more than welcome to come to the seminar. I have not personally called him or asked him yet but i do know he will be there when a date is picked (he is always willing to share info). This will not happen until early spring so everyone will have time to make plans and come in. I will not let the event get out of hand and become a he said she said event- and disrespectful people will be asked to leave at my discretion (where as far as im concerned should be the rule for anyones school) it will be fun and educational for all. Maybe i'll bring in some other instructors who i respect and we can make a full day out of it, And then MJS can buy me a drink instead of Joe because i have never seen KenpoJoe drink anything but milk at social events.
> Jesse E. Dwire IV
> www.dpkempo.com


 
Sounds like a good time.  Please keep us informed as the time gets closer so we can plan for this. 

Mike


----------



## Jdokan

I would like to come also....You can count me in....


----------



## RevIV

LawDog said:


> RevIV,
> May I attend your event? I would like to see Rudy again.


 

I would be honored to have you at the event.. And you can read me like a book, you know Rudy will be there doing his thing.  Whoever can make it will be more than welcome.  there are some major seminars in Jan./ feb/ and march so it will need to be an april thing.
Jesse


----------



## KENPOJOE

RevIV said:


> Ok,
> I am going to throw this out there. I will have KenpoJoe at my dojo as an honored guest. Anyone who wants to see what he has been talking about is more than welcome to come to the seminar. I have not personally called him or asked him yet but i do know he will be there when a date is picked (he is always willing to share info). This will not happen until early spring so everyone will have time to make plans and come in. I will not let the event get out of hand and become a he said she said event- and disrespectful people will be asked to leave at my discretion (where as far as im concerned should be the rule for anyones school) it will be fun and educational for all. Maybe i'll bring in some other instructors who i respect and we can make a full day out of it, And then MJS can buy me a drink instead of Joe because i have never seen KenpoJoe drink anything but milk at social events.
> Jesse E. Dwire IV
> www.dpkempo.com


 
Hi folks!
Dear Jesse,
Thank you for the offer! I'll be more than happy to parcipitate in teaching a seminar! I'm always willing to share my knowledge with others and to gain insight from them as well! BTW, I do drink orange juice [no pulp],Sunkist Orange Soda and occasional tea with chinese food as well!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## Carol

RevIV said:


> I would be honored to have you at the event.. And you can read me like a book, you know Rudy will be there doing his thing.  Whoever can make it will be more than welcome.  there are some major seminars in Jan./ feb/ and march so it will need to be an april thing.
> Jesse



Please count me in as a tentative yes, work permitting and all that jazz.


----------



## LawDog

Carol,
Just bring your lap top with an air card, work and play at the same time.
:boing1:


----------



## Carol

LawDog said:


> Carol,
> Just bring your lap top with an air card, work and play at the same time.
> :boing1:



Had to ditch the air card.  It's not fast enough for the softphone that runs on my laptop.  Now if there happens to be high speed internet connection available to me on site, then we can talk


----------



## kosho

*Ok,
I am going to throw this out there. I will have KenpoJoe at my dojo as an honored guest. Anyone who wants to see what he has been talking about is more than welcome to come to the seminar. I have not personally called him or asked him yet but i do know he will be there when a date is picked (he is always willing to share info). This will not happen until early spring so everyone will have time to make plans and come in. I will not let the event get out of hand and become a he said she said event- and disrespectful people will be asked to leave at my discretion (where as far as im concerned should be the rule for anyones school) it will be fun and educational for all. Maybe i'll bring in some other instructors who i respect and we can make a full day out of it, And then MJS can buy me a drink instead of Joe because i have never seen KenpoJoe drink anything but milk at social events.*
*
Jesse E. Dwire IV** 


Master Dwire IV, 
                         I would love to come to this event also, if there is room??? also bringing down some of my students. 
I had a great time with Kenpo Joe when Grand Master Elmer Jr. was up at my Dojo. 

also wondering about the DVD we talked about? have you made it yet???

Kosho




*


----------



## RevIV

kosho said:


> *Master Dwire IV, *
> *I would love to come to this event also, if there is room??? also bringing down some of my students. *
> *I had a great time with Kenpo Joe when Grand Master Elmer Jr. was up at my Dojo. *
> 
> *also wondering about the DVD we talked about? have you made it yet???*


 
Kosho - 
You and your students are more than welcome to come. We have plenty of room at our new location. About the video.. sorry its taking so long, i have been sick and then last week my chief instructor at the Natick school came down with Mono - so i have been shuffling instructors to his school to cover until Christmas break.
Jesse


----------



## kosho

Thanks,
             Let me know when it is all set, for the seminar.
with the video if you have not made me one thats ok. Will talk over the phone. Hope you get some rest soon. Look forward to seeing you in the year to come. have a great holiday.

kosho


----------



## Dr John M La Tourrette

Danjo said:


> I think that the point of this thread is centered upon the concept of "EARN". ...
> ...if it IS that easy to EARN rank in the arts listed, how good can those arts really be?


 
Hi Danjo, 
Nice seeing you again.
I'm glad you brought up both of the above points, the point about "earn" and the point about "easy".

It reminds me of the old arguments against NLP. Since NLP has an effective Fast Phobia Change Drill that works in five minutes, those classical psychologists are angry at NLP.

Why?

Because they cannot fix a phobia in 20 years of counciling. So the problem was NOT about NLP but was about what people who are classical psychologists EXPECT AND BELIEVE.

Back in the late 70's and the early 80's it took about 5 years, total obedience and a act of God to receive an NLP Trainer's Certificate.

Now-a-days, you can get one in 30 days if you know how to build rapport with the trainer.

The same thing has happened massively within the martial arts.

For a martial arts example, back in the early days of Kenpo Karate Ed Parker ran into a lot of prejudice against him and his skills and his RANK because it did not conform to the dominant martial arts of the time.

Both of your points about "earn" and "easy" should be addressed. Thank you for bringing them up.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com


----------



## Danjo

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Hi Danjo,
> Nice seeing you again.
> I'm glad you brought up both of the above points, the point about "earn" and the point about "easy".
> 
> It reminds me of the old arguments against NLP. Since NLP has an effective Fast Phobia Change Drill that works in five minutes, those classical psychologists are angry at NLP.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because they cannot fix a phobia in 20 years of counciling. So the problem was NOT about NLP but was about what people who are classical psychologists EXPECT AND BELIEVE.
> 
> Back in the late 70's and the early 80's it took about 5 years, total obedience and a act of God to receive an NLP Trainer's Certificate.
> 
> Now-a-days, you can get one in 30 days if you know how to build rapport with the trainer.
> 
> The same thing has happened massively within the martial arts.
> 
> For a martial arts example, back in the early days of Kenpo Karate Ed Parker ran into a lot of prejudice against him and his skills and his RANK because it did not conform to the dominant martial arts of the time.
> 
> Both of your points about "earn" and "easy" should be addressed. Thank you for bringing them up.
> 
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette
> www.realspeedhitting.com


 
I'm not sure where you're going with it, but are you saying that the five years to an NLP certificate and the five years to a black belt are now both obtainable in 30 days if you're in tight with the instructor?


----------



## Dr John M La Tourrette

Danjo said:


> I'm not sure where you're going with it, but are you saying that the five years to an NLP certificate and the five years to a black belt are now both obtainable in 30 days if you're in tight with the instructor?


 
Your derogatory twisting of what I said does NOT deserve a public response.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


----------



## The Last Legionary

I don't know. Lot of folks out there with reams of certs from their frinking buddies. 
Grand Master Charlitan and Supreme Soke Sucky, both with 20+ 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th dans come to my mind. Check out some of these so called "boards" and look at what they claim.  Don't you dare call them on it though, they get quite bitchy when you do that.  Couple of these "masters" are on this site. Most don't last long as their egos write checks that belay their true lack of quality.

(by the way, if you aren't Japanese, doing a Japanese art, you aren't a Soke, you're a Sucky. Don't like it, bite my shiny metal ***, you cultural disrespecting fraud.)

Sorry, it takes more than a year or 2 to master any art, I don't care how old you are, and how long you've been training.  You may have 35 years in Kenpo, but you aren't going to become a Silat Master in a weekend, no matter how many beers you buy, or how close you got to his sister.

As to NLP, no clue what that is. Is it like NPR? Oh, thank you Wiki.
"Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is an interpersonal communication model and an alternative approach to psychotherapy based on the subjective study of language, communication and personal change."

Of course the Shrinks are going to *****. It's competition for their boring *** couch sessions where they keep harping about your mother and her fixation that enema's cure everything.  Sounds interesting, but if I'm dealing with someone who does it, I'll take the guy who put some serious time in, and not the guy who got his cert from the weekend seminar at the Hilton. (Not Paris, she's open to anyone, what quality is that I ask you?)

For me, I'll focus on learning from someone who has focused on mastering one art, rather than some bozo with a dozen cross-rank paper certs and minimal time actually doing the actual art.

It's why I don't buy into the mail-order university crap, or pay attention to "Doctors" who refuse to tell you where they got their degree from. Sorry, if it was real, you'd be proud to say, and wouldn't get all bent out of shape when someone asks.

(Search around here, you'll find that argument. There's been a few questionable "doctors" pop in and out, like a pop tart after school.


For everyone else bang the rocks together folks. Bang them hard, they like it hard, and loud.


RIP Kevin DuBrow



IV


----------



## Danjo

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> Your derogatory twisting of what I said does NOT deserve a public response.
> 
> Dr. John M. La Tourrette


 
More like sarcastic twisting. Sorry, attempts at humor don't always come off like intended.


----------



## kosho

Danjo,
           I you always make me LOL... Have a great Holiday.

Kosho


----------



## Danjo

kosho said:


> Danjo,
> I you always make me LOL... Have a great Holiday.
> 
> Kosho


 
Yep it's Saturnalia time again. Thanks and same to you.


----------



## tellner

Danjo does have a point even if it was being made humorously.

If you can get the trainer to give you a certificate in a month because you've developed a "rapport" what good is it? It sounds like a pat on the back for a friend rather than something with any real meaning or worth. The connection with Kenpo ranks seems forced at best. Different skills take different amounts of time to acquire. The relationship between the level of competence and the piece of paper can be flexible.


----------



## The Last Legionary

It's a common issue. They have a 5th in something legit, a couple of 8ths and 9ths in some "related" systems then a 10th in their own "creation", usually a founder or if they really have an ego that needs stroking (and the small penis that needs compensation too) they hook up with some "head of family" rank exchange and get themselves a "Sokeship".  Some don't. They just have page long lists of all these high ranks. 35 years old, 15 8th dans and higher. It's brown, it came out of the southern end of a northern bound bull, and smells quite bad. 

Kenpo's no better. There's quite a few folks who got their promotion for simply switching organizations and bringing a few folks over with them.  Move a small school, jump 2 grades, larger school 3-4.  I'm not refering to some 28 yr old wet behind the ears folks either, but a few of the so called "seniors". Those who've been around long enough, you know who I'm talking about, so I'm not saying any names.  People argue if kenpo is American, Hawaiian, Japanese or Chinese.   I say, it's Southern.  Y'all are cousins, and there's a butt load of inbreeding involved, and you know what happens when cousins get busy. Some of you will know the big eared weird looking guy I'm talking about, rest of you, just go back to the buffet, it's crab leg night after all, try not to get any on the GM.  He's the fat guy with all the stripes on his belt. That's not rank, it's stretch marks. 

What's my point, other than to insult a couple of hacks?
Simply this. Someone legit with real skill and talent, doesn't need reams of paper, a fancy title, or any such bull crap. You'll see them on the floor, training, teaching, and still learning. Forever a student. They have real humility, not the false front I've seen over the past decade, and heard about from so many others.

Those folks, the real artists, are a rare breed, and if you train with one of them, count your blessings and thank your God, and thank them, for sharing with you what they know and allowing you the chance to walk a ways with them in their and you journey.


Peace out homer. 






IV


----------



## The Last Legionary

I got this repy dingy doo doo from some chicken crap wanna be but couldn't be had to buy his credits mail order because he is flail disorder on the mattys.
"*accusations with NO verification, slander*"
Someone failed their save vs clue check!

*Accusation*: a formal charge of wrongdoing brought against a person; the act of imputing blame or guilt 

*Verification*: confirmation of the accuracy of data. 

*Slander*: Slander is oral defamation, untrue words said aloud as opposed to written down.

So with the help of Mr. Webster and his fellow definers of language, I have clearly shown that my own defamer is in fact, an utter butt muncher.

Mr. Doctor, Soke, mind flayer, butt muncher, the word you were looking for, you incontinent ninny was "Libel", not "Slander".

For there to have been either slander or libel, I would have to have named a name.
I did not. Your teeny tiny microbial sized pee brain (yes I said pee brain, for he or she is a piss-ant my lord!) filled in a blank, probably your own due to a guilty conscience I'd expect and being incapable of accepting any opposing view that might dispute the narrow and self promoting nature of your own ego, was of course, offended.

For there to be verification, it would of course require that I name names and cite sources, thereby allowing said nincompoops to do what they do best.  Scream and stamp and pout and call out their legal scrap suckers to send threats against me and this site and it's owner, something I read happens whenever some loser no real skill feltcher gets brought up and ripped the new bung hole and exposed as the scumwad they are. Sorry Analmouse butt my sense of propriety won't allow that.

For there to be a specific accusation, I would have to name names. Covered that, not my fault if this is too hard for you. Next time, I'll type slower for you. Should have gone to a real school and not gotten your degree and or black belt from UPS.

So, sorry bum burgler, butt you're obviously outclassed here, and probably one of the frauds with tons of paper and little actual skill I was refering to.

So please, and I say this will all honesty and total affection, being so full of holiday cheer as I am,:lfao::2xBird2::moon::btg::lol2:


_This product is meant for educational purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Postage will be paid by addressee. Subject to CAB approval. This is not an offer to sell securities. Apply only to affected area. May be too intense for some viewers. Do not stamp. Use other side for additional listings. For recreational use only. Do not disturb. All models over 18 years of age. If condition persists, consult your physician._

*
IV*


----------



## tellner

LL, You make a number of good points here. But your choice of words is going to run afoul of the moderators.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Very true. But cowards annoy me, and fraudulant cowards more so. It's gotten me in trouble before. Time for me to start drinking and sober up. :lol:


*IV*


----------



## John Bishop

OK. That was entertaining. 
I'm assuming that you  (Last Legionary) received a email or PM strongly disagreeing with one of your posts.  If that is the case, lets keep it in the PM's or emails.  If it spills out here into the open forum, then we'll be forced to shut down this interesting discussion.


----------



## The Last Legionary

It was an unsigned negative reputation remark received for post#177.
Sorry for the sidetrack. 


*IV*


----------



## John Bishop

The Last Legionary said:


> It was an unsigned negative reputation remark received for post#177.
> Sorry for the sidetrack.
> 
> 
> *IV*



Thanks for your cooperation.


----------



## Rob Broad

After reading through this entire thread, I will say that I love what KenpoJoe does.  The few times I have chatted with him online he shared emmensely.  His YouTube clips are phenominal.  And if I ever get a second batch of Kenpo Whores shoulder rockers made, be wll be get one, becase he is the original Kenpo Whore, willing to learn from anyone who as the knowledge he wants to possess.

We have all seen the Uber belts and there are a lot more of those flakes than legit guys out there.  And with those guys who hand rank to each other through th eold boys club, or create several styles of their own to hand out to their buddies, I have just one question "How much snake oil does it take to grease the wheels?"


----------



## MJS

I'd like to say a few things.  First off, speaking as a member, not a mod because I'm involved in this thread, but I'd like to ask all that are participating in this thread, to please do your best to keep things cool.  This is a big thread, and I'd hate to see it closed because someone can't control their words.

As for the thread in itself.  There seems to be a few misconceptions.  First, this thread is not about one particular person.  KenpoJoe was brought into it, but I, as well as any else, can search the net and find many high rank people.  I think alot of questions that are being asked, are also going unanswered, which IMHO, leads to more questions.  Whats the big secret?  

Second, this thread has nothing to do with skill.  If we look at the thread title its high rank and multiple arts.  I see nothing talking about skill in that title.  That being said, people have asked why I think its wrong to get more skill.  Nothing is wrong with that.  If I wasn't interested in more skill, I myself wouldn't be training in Arnis and BJJ, as well as going to seminars, working out with others from various arts, etc.  I love to train and if I didn't, I would never have been training for this long.  The difference lies in getting high rank with all of those arts.  Being a 7th, 8th or 9th degree, as some have said, takes a loooooong time.  So, it begs the question, and one that has not been answered...How is it possible?  Is it possible, given the persons age and time that they have in the arts?

People seem to think that it makes their MA resume look good because they have X number of ranks and X degrees.  Sorry, for me, thats not what I look at.  Impress me with your skill, not the number of belts or your rank.  Obviously I'm not the only one who is curious about this subject, judging by the replies that are also questioning things.


----------



## MJS

I'd also like to add, that there is nothing wrong with having more than one black belt.  Next month I, and a few others that are in my Arnis group, will be testing for our black belts.  Funny thing is, given the amount of time the 4 of us have in Arnis, one would think that we'd be 2nd or 3rd degrees, yet we're testing for black.  Hmmm.

If I was a rank whore, I'd have tested a long time ago, but fact is, I dont care and neither do the other 3.  Yet watch us on the mat.  Watch us train.  Watch us execute the material.  Certainly impresses our teacher.  

So as I said, its not the color or the stripes, its the skill.  Its really simple math.  Take a look at some high rank people.  Look at the number of arts they do.  Look at the rank they hold.  Look at the time they've been training.  Do things add up?  If so, then no worries.  If not..well, I don't think I need to say anything about that.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

MJS said:


> I'd like to say a few things. First off, speaking as a member, not a mod because I'm involved in this thread, but I'd like to ask all that are participating in this thread, to please do your best to keep things cool. This is a big thread, and I'd hate to see it closed because someone can't control their words.
> 
> As for the thread in itself. There seems to be a few misconceptions. First, this thread is not about one particular person. KenpoJoe was brought into it, but I, as well as any else, can search the net and find many high rank people. I think alot of questions that are being asked, are also going unanswered, which IMHO, leads to more questions. Whats the big secret?
> 
> Second, this thread has nothing to do with skill. If we look at the thread title its high rank and multiple arts. I see nothing talking about skill in that title. That being said, people have asked why I think its wrong to get more skill. Nothing is wrong with that. If I wasn't interested in more skill, I myself wouldn't be training in Arnis and BJJ, as well as going to seminars, working out with others from various arts, etc. I love to train and if I didn't, I would never have been training for this long. The difference lies in getting high rank with all of those arts. Being a 7th, 8th or 9th degree, as some have said, takes a loooooong time. So, it begs the question, and one that has not been answered...How is it possible? Is it possible, given the persons age and time that they have in the arts?
> 
> People seem to think that it makes their MA resume look good because they have X number of ranks and X degrees. Sorry, for me, thats not what I look at. Impress me with your skill, not the number of belts or your rank. Obviously I'm not the only one who is curious about this subject, judging by the replies that are also questioning things.


 
*Absolutely great post Mike!*  It does come down to your skill and less about your rank.  Your ability to protect yourself and your loved ones is also what is really important.  In the end rank is just really not important! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*Train and practice dillegently* because in the moment the belt you have is meaningless!


----------



## Brother John

MJS said:


> I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank? Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it. I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?


I do think that the desire for high rank is an Ego & Esteem thing.
I don't want "High" rank. I want to associate myself with martial artists of HIGH quality, skill, knowledge and experience. I don't judge those things by rank. You cannot equate those things to a number of years! You cannot judge those things based on whose student they are/were. I have to judge that based on first hand experience. I do think that their interaction with others is a fine resource for judging their 'quality' as far as character. If they can't conduct themselves as a mature, humble, honest and patient person.....even online.....I can't imagine them having much capacity for the level of cultivation required to develop those qualities I admire and look for in those I want to associate with.

So....as the old saying goes, don't TELL me who you are, SHOW me what you do....and THEN...I will KNOW you.
OR: As Christ said "By their fruits shall ye know them."
I don't see their belt or certs or titles as "Fruit"
just decorations.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John

...as far as "Multiple arts"....

More power to ya!

I've got nothing against it whatsoever. But people need to think about what they do and why. Not all "Additions" really add to the mix. You can't take pieces from puzzle A and force them to fit well into puzzle B.

I'm all for what's commonly called "Cross-Training". I think the massive majority of the "old/traditional" masters did so!!!!! By and large, it's one of the paths to mastery as I see it.

But just like "rank"......just 'knowing' several different arts/systems doesn't mean that WHAT you know or how well you know it or how cohesive a "whole" it becomes........means squat.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Danjo

Rob Broad said:


> After reading through this entire thread, I will say that I love what KenpoJoe does. The few times I have chatted with him online he shared emmensely. His YouTube clips are phenominal. And if I ever get a second batch of Kenpo Whores shoulder rockers made, be wll be get one, becase he is the original Kenpo Whore, willing to learn from anyone who as the knowledge he wants to possess.
> 
> We have all seen the Uber belts and there are a lot more of those flakes than legit guys out there. And with those guys who hand rank to each other through th eold boys club, or create several styles of their own to hand out to their buddies, I have just one question "How much snake oil does it take to grease the wheels?"


 
If you don't want people to think you're a duck then quit quacking. If you don't want people to think you're a rank chaser, don't post a dozen high ranks on your website.

The comment that Kenpo Joe is a good martial artist or that you like what he does is beside the point entirely. 

He was used by me as a case in point. The point of the thread wasn't about him per se, he just fit the bill of someone that had multiple high ranks in various arts and the question was asked "How is this legitimately possible?" It still hasn't been answered IMO.


----------



## Grenadier

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Senior Moderator


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## MJS

Danjo said:


> If you don't want people to think you're a duck then quit quacking. If you don't want people to think you're a rank chaser, don't post a dozen high ranks on your website.
> 
> The comment that Kenpo Joe is a good martial artist or that you like what he does is beside the point entirely.
> 
> He was used by me as a case in point. The point of the thread wasn't about him per se, he just fit the bill of someone that had multiple high ranks in various arts and the question was asked "How is this legitimately possible?" It still hasn't been answered IMO.


 
I couldn't agree more on this post!  Considering how many people never take a MA discussion serious in the first place, I rarely discuss any training, unless I'm directly asked, and even then, depending on how the convo. is going, will depend whether or not I go in depth or just answer basic questions.  I usually don't talk about rank, but when I am, I'm honest about it.  I have nothing to hide about my rank.  But you're right...when someone asks a question, and it gets beat around the bush, that makes some flags go up.  If you're going to broadcast something, be prepared to get questions asked.

Mike


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## Rob Broad

Without stepping on MartialTalk Sraff's toes mayb this thread should be split into multiple topics so that all the questions can be answered.  

Something else that may be helpful, instead of bombarding a person with multiple questions let them answer a question before asking another one that way they can give an answer with less chance of missing questions


----------



## arnisador

The positive comments are appreciated. I'm following this and find the subject interesting separate from any relation to specific people in any art. I've seen it in every art...and can't help but think of a Monty Python skit where a person had so many academic degrees that his list of them wrapped around the room, creating a barrier to entry. The point is, this is not so interesting if it's about a single person or a few people. Someone will always be at the far end of the bell curve of _anything_.



MJS said:


> Next month I, and a few others that are in my Arnis group, will be testing for our black belts.



Hey, good luck!


----------



## MJS

Rob Broad said:


> Without stepping on MartialTalk Sraff's toes mayb this thread should be split into multiple topics so that all the questions can be answered.
> 
> Something else that may be helpful, instead of bombarding a person with multiple questions let them answer a question before asking another one that way they can give an answer with less chance of missing questions


 
Well, I can certainly understand that, however, if questions are not going to be answered, there really no sense in splitting it.  We'd have 10 threads with a bunch of questions and no answers.


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## MJS

arnisador said:


> Hey, good luck!


 
Thanks.  I'll post the details when it happens.


----------



## KENPOJOE

MJS said:


> I couldn't agree more on this post! Considering how many people never take a MA discussion serious in the first place, I rarely discuss any training, unless I'm directly asked, and even then, depending on how the convo. is going, will depend whether or not I go in depth or just answer basic questions. I usually don't talk about rank, but when I am, I'm honest about it. I have nothing to hide about my rank. But you're right...when someone asks a question, and it gets beat around the bush, that makes some flags go up. If you're going to broadcast something, be prepared to get questions asked.
> 
> Mike


Hi folks!
Mike, you hit the nail on the head with your post! 
When this thread first started,I thought it would be nice if I addressed it only because I do hold various ranks in various arts. I explained to the best of my ability and have been very active in the martial arts for many years. For some of you,far before you were even in the arts. In response to my honest answers, i was called evasive,elusive and distant about answers to this particular thread on this particular board.Questions were asked that I felt were off topic and there was no need to answer them. If that makes certain people's flags go up,then run it up the flagpole and see who salutes! I've offered to the original poster an opportunity to ask any questions because it's a prolonged process to detail out a 38 year career. With all due respect to all concerned,If you think that i'm typing it all out here you are mistaken or completely insane. If you are truly that desperate to find out all the myrid details of my illustrious & lenghty journey, well, in our modern technology,most celphone carriers have free weekend minutes,so,call and ask! To be quite frank, there really isn't anyone here on this board that I'm really losing any sleep over whether I answer questions on this or any other board. With all due respect again, you just aren't that important. If you are,then i've already contacted you personally because I deemed you that important to me as a friend and mutual aquaintance. When someone makes a rude comment or a snide remark, it's no big deal. I just "point and laugfh" because it's funny! So, don't be surprised if most of these people don't even bother responding...because to them, your opinion doesn't matter.
When someone does actually take the time to respond, no matter what their response, certain people flame them or act the "role of troll" and are shining examples of the old adage "No act of kindness goes unpunished". So, no wonder many people just lurk on these boards!
merry christmas and happy holidays!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## The Game

Someone once said to me, mastering an art takes a lifetime.

I can understand cross training. I can even understand earning some rank in what you cross train in. 

But some people have 10, 20, 30 or more black belts. I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.  

I challenge anyone who has that to step on a floor and demonstrate each and ever one of those arts that they hold rank in's entire curriculum from white to 1st black.

If you list a 6th in EPAK a 5th in Tracy and a 7th in another art, then you better know white-black 1st cold, in each of them. Otherwise, I call you a fraud.

I don't care if you're 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 or even 80. No one can master that many arts. If you could, you'd have been on the cover of Sports Illustrated, and the military would be cloning you as a Super Soldier. So, cut the ego fluffing.

If you can't show the material someone who studied that art soley would, then I don't think you should have a rank in that art. Period.

Now back to trying to screw with peoples heads in TGD.


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## Rob Broad

MJS said:


> Well, I can certainly understand that, however, if questions are not going to be answered, there really no sense in splitting it. We'd have 10 threads with a bunch of questions and no answers.


 

I have been in one of these types of treads in the past and I know exactly how hard it is to respond to people when 6 people ask you a question and even if they all ask the same thing they get upset if you don't address them specifically.  It is also had to wade through a thread to answer people if there are several tangent threads starting as well, it makes it very difficult to answer people and follow along, it also et very tiring and you eventualy say screw it. Paring of the thread may allow the original topic to be worked on and flourish and those that are intent in bashing Mr. Rebelo can put their posts in another thread so that the serious dicussion can still take place.


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## MJS

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Mike, you hit the nail on the head with your post!
> When this thread first started,I thought it would be nice if I addressed it only because I do hold various ranks in various arts. I explained to the best of my ability and have been very active in the martial arts for many years. For some of you,far before you were even in the arts. In response to my honest answers, i was called evasive,elusive and distant about answers to this particular thread on this particular board.Questions were asked that I felt were off topic and there was no need to answer them. If that makes certain people's flags go up,then run it up the flagpole and see who salutes! I've offered to the original poster an opportunity to ask any questions because it's a prolonged process to detail out a 38 year career. With all due respect to all concerned,If you think that i'm typing it all out here you are mistaken or completely insane. If you are truly that desperate to find out all the myrid details of my illustrious & lenghty journey, well, in our modern technology,most celphone carriers have free weekend minutes,so,call and ask! To be quite frank, there really isn't anyone here on this board that I'm really losing any sleep over whether I answer questions on this or any other board. With all due respect again, you just aren't that important. If you are,then i've already contacted you personally because I deemed you that important to me as a friend and mutual aquaintance. When someone makes a rude comment or a snide remark, it's no big deal. I just "point and laugfh" because it's funny! So, don't be surprised if most of these people don't even bother responding...because to them, your opinion doesn't matter.
> When someone does actually take the time to respond, no matter what their response, certain people flame them or act the "role of troll" and are shining examples of the old adage "No act of kindness goes unpunished". So, no wonder many people just lurk on these boards!
> merry christmas and happy holidays!
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


 
Hey Joe,

I'm home during the day, so anytime you want to chat, I'd be more than happy to give you a call.  Shoot me a PM with your number.  Really though, all I had was 2 questions.  The first: is it possible to achieve something like this, while at the same time keeping things legit?  Second, how long did it take you to do all this?  See this is what I'm thinking.  I'm thinking that you'd rather say all this 1 on 1, that way, when the person comes back to set the record straight on the forum, it'll be their words, not yours that are seen.  Its easy to come back and claim that the person posting did not speak the truth.  Its basically a CYA type of thing.  If you say it, now you and only you are responsible for what you post.  

As for losing sleep...Im not losing any either.   I too point and laugh at how direct questions can't or won't be answered, but hey, thats on you my friend, not me.  

As far as lurking goes...Joe, this forum is free and open for anyone to post.  Anyone is entitle to join Martial Talk.  Thing is Joe, when people post, its only natural for others to ask questions.  And its only natural to get an answer.  I'm sorry, but I like to ask questions, and if I have one, I'm going to ask it.   Some think that because they talk a big game or flash fancy things, that people should automatically take that as the answer and not question or argue.  Like I've said, sometimes silence speaks louder than the words themselves. 

Oh, BTW, despite what I say on here, I still plan on setting up a time to come up to MA to train.  And dinner and drinks (whatever those drinks may be) are still on me. 

Have a Merry Christmas and a Safe and Happy New Year. 

Mike


----------



## MJS

Rob Broad said:


> I have been in one of these types of treads in the past and I know exactly how hard it is to respond to people when 6 people ask you a question and even if they all ask the same thing they get upset if you don't address them specifically. It is also had to wade through a thread to answer people if there are several tangent threads starting as well, it makes it very difficult to answer people and follow along, it also et very tiring and you eventualy say screw it. Paring of the thread may allow the original topic to be worked on and flourish and those that are intent in bashing Mr. Rebelo can put their posts in another thread so that the serious dicussion can still take place.


 
As Danjo said in an earlier post, this thread is not about Joe, although its taking that turn now.  As I've said, I didn't start it to specifically talk about Joe, but instead high rank/mult arts in general.  Joe happens to be one that has both, so I'm just simply asking a few questions.  Do you honestly feel that questions will be answered?  Maybe, maybe not, but I will suggest a thread split.

Mike


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## Ray

MJS said:


> As Danjo said in an earlier post, this thread is not about Joe, although its taking that turn now.  As I've said, I didn't start it to specifically talk about Joe, but instead high rank/mult arts in general.  Joe happens to be one that has both, so I'm just simply asking a few questions.  Do you honestly feel that questions will be answered?  Maybe, maybe not, but I will suggest a thread split.


Hell, I don't care what anyone calls themselves or what rank they have.  All I know is that KenpoJoe has taught me quite a bit that I didn't know - and I hope to have the opportunity to learn more from him.

You might as well start a thread saying that no one could have invented calculus since most people could not have.  However, two people different people did almost simultaneously.

(Now I'm not saying that Mr. Rebelo is the intellectual equal of Newton -- just that some people have accomplished more than others.  Some have not accomplished as much because they don't have the opportunities; some have not accomplished as much because they don't have the innate ability to; some because they play x-box all night long).

Bottom line is: why bother worrying about what rank or knowledge someone else claims?  Spend more time gathering the knowledge and skills that we don't have.


----------



## arnisador

The Game said:


> I challenge anyone who has that to step on a floor and demonstrate each and ever one of those arts that they hold rank in's entire curriculum from white to 1st black.



This is a good test, I think. For those FMAs that don't have anyos (kata) and focus on (only) stick, machete (bolo), and knife (rather than having different techniques for specific types of swords, etc.)--and this covers a lot of Filipino arts--so many of the techniques are so similar that if you are good at one you could just about learn the other system in a day. The other system will have a couple of different drills--a 4-count where you have a 3-count--a few new locks, but mostly they will emphasize different things that you already know. They'll fight closer-in or further-out, do more straight-in footwork and less triangular footwork, drill out of hubud more than abecedario, but things will overall be easy to grasp. When I study these arts I generally know every specific move, just not the combos and strategies. If shown the combo, I can generally perform the technique pretty well very quickly.

_BUT_...although for several of these arts I _have _been walked through most of the curriculum, I could never hope to remember and show them. What that means is that I'm still a Modern Arnis player who can mimic moves from otehr arts but do not fight as they do--not at their range, with their signature moves and strategies, with their assumptions of what's likely to happen, and so on. I'm an arnisador in an eskrimador's clothing when I do that. When I go to a Dekiti Tirsia Siradas seminar, I'm usually complimented on any technique I do. But when we ramp up the speed, my footwork is very different from theirs, as is my live-hand usage (as I'm a stick-jockey and they treat the stick as a sword).

If you teach one of these very similar FMA styles then you'd be able to show me your curriculum and see me demonstrate it to 1st black proficiency in a day, or maybe a week if you have intricate sinawalis. But I'll never move/think/fight/react like someone from your style. So what does the belt mean in that case?

To my mind, it's like the fact that a physics professor could teach a calculus class on any given day, but a physicist and a mathematician are still two different types of specialties.

Time for a new thread with a poll: "How many black belts do you have?" I've been doing this since the late 1970s and I just earned my second black belt this year...and it's in JKD as an adjunct to my arnis.


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## Perpetual White Belt

arnisador said:


> This is a good test, I think. For those FMAs that don't have anyos (kata) and focus on (only) stick, machete (bolo), and knife (rather than having different techniques for specific types of swords, etc.)--and this covers a lot of Filipino arts--so many of the techniques are so similar that if you are good at one you could just about learn the other system in a day. The other system will have a couple of different drills--a 4-count where you have a 3-count--a few new locks, but mostly they will emphasize different things that you already know. They'll fight closer-in or further-out, do more straight-in footwork and less triangular footwork, drill out of hubud more than abecedario, but things will overall be easy to grasp. When I study these arts I generally know every specific move, just not the combos and strategies. If shown the combo, I can generally perform the technique pretty well very quickly.


 
This could also be said of Okinawa karate.  Most systems have the basic katas (Pinan, Naihanchi, Passai, Gojushiho, Kusanku) with only minor differences in the kata(such as cat stances instead of back for instance), so if you're good at your art you should be able to go through and learn the kata in a similar art in a shorter amount of time.


----------



## tellner

The Game said:


> I can understand cross training. I can even understand earning some rank in what you cross train in.
> 
> But some people have 10, 20, 30 or more black belts. I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.
> 
> I challenge anyone who has that to step on a floor and demonstrate each and ever one of those arts that they hold rank in's entire curriculum from white to 1st black.
> 
> If you list a 6th in EPAK a 5th in Tracy and a 7th in another art, then you better know white-black 1st cold, in each of them. Otherwise, I call you a fraud.



Brother, you have told the absolute truth here. There's nothing a person can add to that and nothing that an honest man could argue with.


----------



## Danjo

arnisador said:


> If you teach one of these very similar FMA styles then you'd be able to show me your curriculum and see me demonstrate it to 1st black proficiency in a day, or maybe a week if you have intricate sinawalis. But I'll never move/think/fight/react like someone from your style. So what does the belt mean in that case?


 
Exactly. In that case, the belt means nothing.  It means that high rank in another form isn't something you deserve if you can't move/think/fight/react like someone from that art.

Excellent point.


----------



## arnisador

As a case in point, I count this individual as a Grandmaster of one art and a Master of 13 others from this ad. His site makes the claim a bit less strongly.

I've met several of his students at seminars (and him, briefly). They're nice and also skilled, and can do Ryukyu Kempo, Small Circle JJ, and Modern Arnis to varying degrees of skill, with an emphasis on the former. But...he himself seems to have mastered a lot of arts before creating his own system(s).


----------



## Monadnock

People place too much meaning on rank. 8th degree black in one style does not equate to the same level of proficiency of 8th-dan in another.

Some systems are simpler to learn than others.

I'm more interested in how long a person has been studying a style and how many other reputable people are willing to stand behind the person's skills.

In KenpoJoe's example, he has some rank from the Nindo-ryu folk. I know that they are their own system and quite possibly give out high ranks rather frequently. So be it. There are people nearing 10th-dan in some Japanese arts I have meet who are under 40 years of age. Sadly, we can't look at high rank as high rank any more.


----------



## Kreth

Monadnock said:


> ...he has some rank from the Nindo-ryu folk. I know that they are their own system and quite possibly give out high ranks rather frequently.


I'd like to nominate this post for MT's "Understatement of the Year" award. :lol:


----------



## Gentle Fist

Kreth said:


> I'd like to nominate this post for MT's "Understatement of the Year" award. :lol:


 

I second that!!!


----------



## Danjo

So this thread seems to have come to the point where we can draw a couple of conclusions: 1) if the arts are virtually the same, then having a cross rank in them is no biggie to achieve 2) If they are not the same, it is highly unlikely that a person could legitimately get to high rank in very many of them.

Let's look at it this way. If someone told me that they were an expert in using a 3/4 inch Snap-on wrench, then I would assume that they would be equally good at using a 3/4 inch Stanley, or Craftsman wrench as well because the only real difference would be the name and a slight cosmetic difference, but it's still the same tool. If their resume' listed their expertise in all three brands of wrench, I might questin the need to do that or conclude that they were just trying to impress me with more words, but I would accept the claim as basically true.

However, if they said to me that they had trained to expertise with a chainsaw and therfore they should also be considered an expert in the use of a Keyhole saw, hacksaw, backsaw, bandsaw and cross cut saw, then I would begin to question their rationale. Just because they are all "saws" and they all have the function of "Cutting" doesn't make them the same tool, nor does the skill required for one equal the skill required for the other.

So, if all the listed high ranks are in arts that are no more different than the wrenches listed above are from each other, then no problem. If it's just a matter of a different name and a slight cosmetic difference, then who cares? Just go ahead and list those different names for the same thing. If that's what's really being said, then no problem.


----------



## LawDog

I agree with Danjo and a few others in certain area's. 
Ex. - many systems have a high level of jujitsu / judo engrained into their material and other systems do not. If you are in a system that does not have a high level of jujitsu / judo than your ability to perform the material within a system that does would be rather low.
Even in Kenpo / Kempo there is a vast difference on the amount of varing types of material that has been engrained into these various systems.
So it is my opinon that a persons ability to control his / her body and their understanding of tacticle applications might be the same but their ability to perform the material from another system might not be.
This compairison could go on and on.
Bottom line, if a person can do it properly and on a high level then ok. If not then --.
:asian:


----------



## Gentle Fist

LawDog said:


> I agree with Danjo and a few others in certain area's.
> Ex. - many systems have a high level of jujitsu / judo engrained into their material and other systems do not. If you are in a system that does not have a high level of jujitsu / judo than your ability to perform the material within a system that does would be rather low.
> Even in Kenpo / Kempo there is a vast difference on the amount of varing types of material that has been engrained into these various systems.
> So it is my opinon that a persons ability to control his / her body and their understanding of tacticle applications might be the same but their ability to perform the material from another system might not be.
> This compairison could go on and on.
> Bottom line, if a person can do it properly and on a high level then ok. If not then --.
> :asian:


 
Very well said!!!


----------



## tellner

Danjo said:


> Let's look at it this way. If someone told me that they were an expert in using a 3/4 inch Snap-on wrench, then I would assume that they would be equally good at using a 3/4 inch Stanley, or Craftsman wrench as well because the only real difference would be the name and a slight cosmetic difference, but it's still the same tool. If their resume' listed their expertise in all three brands of wrench, I might questin the need to do that or conclude that they were just trying to impress me with more words, but I would accept the claim as basically true.
> 
> However, if they said to me that they had trained to expertise with a chainsaw and therfore they should also be considered an expert in the use of a Keyhole saw, hacksaw, backsaw, bandsaw and cross cut saw, then I would begin to question their rationale. Just because they are all "saws" and they all have the function of "Cutting" doesn't make them the same tool, nor does the skill required for one equal the skill required for the other.



That's a very good analogy. You can push it a long way before you've pushed it too far. 

A good blacksmith can look at a good carpenter and recognize skill. That doesn't make the carpenter a blacksmith even though they both use hammers, files and vises. If a traditional Japanese carpenter and an Amish carpenter traded workshops each could be productive; they use a number of the same tools and work with wood. But that doesn't mean that they are the same or that they could be up to speed the next day. A lot of the tools are not the same. The style of furniture or buildings they construct is very different.

When a style awards rank to someone it is saying "He is up to our standards. If he has this rank he is as good as anyone else with the same title. All of us are willing to stake our reputations and good names on it." If he can't perform the curriculum or do what other high-ranking practitioners can do (and vice versa) it's a direct reflection on everyone in the system. You can't say "We didn't pinky-swear, so we can do a take back." You give it, you stand behind it.

If Kenpo is Kenpo is Kenpo high ranks in multiple styles are meaningless exercises in multiplying by one or adding zeros. If it's not all the same or close enough as makes no difference, then sixth and seventh degree black belts should take more than a year or two. One way looks like pure ego-stroking. The other way looks cheap.


----------



## jks9199

tellner said:


> When a style awards rank to someone it is saying "He is up to our standards. If he has this rank he is as good as anyone else with the same title. All of us are willing to stake our reputations and good names on it." If he can't perform the curriculum or do what other high-ranking practitioners can do (and vice versa) it's a direct reflection on everyone in the system. You can't say "We didn't pinky-swear, so we can do a take back." You give it, you stand behind it.



I take slight exception to this.  Styles don't award rank; instructors, promotion boards, grandmasters, or high mucketymucks award rank.

Some award rank stingily, others readily.  Some award rank to some people on one basis, and others on another.  

The bottom line is that the meaning of the rank only can be judged by looking at others in that system, and by looking at that standard.  I'll put my green belts up against brown belts or even black belts in some systems -- or in some schools within my system.  

But, at the same time, at black belt and higher, there should be some commonality that can be compared.  You can compare two masters degrees, even if they're not in the same academic discipline.  You should be able to roughly compare two black belts, and have an idea that both are dan-ranked.


----------



## tellner

jks9199 said:


> But, at the same time, at black belt and higher, there should be some commonality that can be compared.  You can compare two masters degrees, even if they're not in the same academic discipline.  You should be able to roughly compare two black belts, and have an idea that both are dan-ranked.



I wouldn't even grant that. A Masters in Criminology is a Masters, a terminal degree. A Masters in Electrical Engineering or Studio Art is a terminal degree in a completely different field. You can't compare the *particular* skills and knowledge of one to the skills and knowledge of the other although you can say something about the overall amount of time and preparation the other guys have done. A dissertation on the theory of Deviant Psychology and social reintegration contrasted between South Korean and Texan penal systems is great. But it doesn't deserve any standing in Microwave Circuit Design and vice versa. Neither of them has anything to do with sculpture or printmaking. 

A Karate board that judges your skills in Kendo and awards rank in Karate based on them has taken leave of its integrity. If it awards you Kendo rank it has also taken leave of its senses.

When I talk about styles awarding rank it's a matter of background. I started off in Judo. Every test was done in front of a board of examiners with at least a certain rank in Judo. The certificate came from the USJA (or was it USJF?). It was the same when I tested for rank in other systems. There wasn't just one examiner. A group of them had to pass on everyone, and the organizations of which they were a part signed off.


----------



## jks9199

tellner said:


> I wouldn't even grant that. A Masters in Criminology is a Masters, a terminal degree. A Masters in Electrical Engineering or Studio Art is a terminal degree in a completely different field. You can't compare the *particular* skills and knowledge of one to the skills and knowledge of the other although you can say something about the overall amount of time and preparation the other guys have done. A dissertation on the theory of Deviant Psychology and social reintegration contrasted between South Korean and Texan penal systems is great. But it doesn't deserve any standing in Microwave Circuit Design and vice versa. Neither of them has anything to do with sculpture or printmaking.



I don't think we're that far apart...  I probably didn't phrase it as well as I could have.  (Doing too many things at once...)

I'm not suggesting that the particular knowledge of a person with a masters in linguistics is comparable to that of someone with a MSW, for example, or that a masters in engineering is the same as a MFA.  But, the rough scope of their knowledge is comparable, just as bachelors or associates or doctoral degrees are.  You know that a person with a masters has gone beyond the basics, and typically narrowed their focus a bit, spending 2 to 3 years of study time (calculated on a full-time student basis) to learn that material.  They've typically completed some sort of individual or new project (thesis, performance, whatever) in their field. 

Similarly, a black belt (or equivalent), especially at higher levels, should indicate that person has developed a certain degree of mastery of the material in that system.  In a perfect world, we'd be able to look at a group of students from various styles, and figure out which ones are the black belts.  In the real world... there are black belts, and there are people with black belts, and there are people with mastery.  They don't always come together in the same person...

But, I also agree.  People conferring rank on others in styles that they don't have personal knowledge and experience in are being dishonest or disingenious at best.  (I'll draw a distinction between recognizing rank conferred by more appropriate authorities -- though I do so grudgingly.)  You could, for example, watch me training, and (hopefully!) say "I bet that guy's a black belt!"  You could see my certificate, and say "Yep, I can see why they gave you that rank."  (Or, perhaps it'd be "why'd they give you that rank?")  But for you to look at someone and decide that they are a black belt, and award them a belt yourself...  That's different.


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## tellner

Ding!
Ding!
Ding!

We've reached consensus!
:bangahead:


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## Dr John M La Tourrette

tellner said:


> When I talk about styles awarding rank it's a matter of background. I started off in Judo. Every test was done in front of a board of examiners with at least a certain rank in Judo. The certificate came from the USJA (or was it USJF?).


 
It sounds like my time period but I was with the Okazaki people so we did it with the AJJF.

And you are right, the AJJF (I think yours was the USJF), at that time (late 50's) did not award ranks in Karate, but in Judo Competition, and in Jujitsu. A different rank requirement for each. A different testing board for each, and testing was only done by yudancha certified in the skill they were testing.

That does seem simple enough.

I'm wondering what all the confusion is?

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## tellner

No confusion really. I've just always been impressed by the clear, businesslike way Judo - Kodokan and Kodenkan - handle it.


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## Danjo

tellner said:


> That's a very good analogy. You can push it a long way before you've pushed it too far.
> 
> A good blacksmith can look at a good carpenter and recognize skill. That doesn't make the carpenter a blacksmith even though they both use hammers, files and vises. If a traditional Japanese carpenter and an Amish carpenter traded workshops each could be productive; they use a number of the same tools and work with wood. But that doesn't mean that they are the same or that they could be up to speed the next day. A lot of the tools are not the same. The style of furniture or buildings they construct is very different.
> 
> When a style awards rank to someone it is saying "He is up to our standards. If he has this rank he is as good as anyone else with the same title. All of us are willing to stake our reputations and good names on it." If he can't perform the curriculum or do what other high-ranking practitioners can do (and vice versa) it's a direct reflection on everyone in the system. You can't say "We didn't pinky-swear, so we can do a take back." You give it, you stand behind it.
> 
> If Kenpo is Kenpo is Kenpo high ranks in multiple styles are meaningless exercises in multiplying by one or adding zeros. If it's not all the same or close enough as makes no difference, then sixth and seventh degree black belts should take more than a year or two. One way looks like pure ego-stroking. The other way looks cheap.


 
Excellent comparison.


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