# Getting involved



## MJS (Oct 19, 2005)

Just wondering what everyones thoughts are about getting involved as a 3rd party in a confrontation?  If there were two people in a verbal altercation, what would you do as a bystander?  Get involved, call the police, do nothing, etc.?  Once you state what you'd do, I'd also be interested in hearing why.

This does not have to be limited to just a verbal altercation.  The possibilities are endless.


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## Navarre (Oct 19, 2005)

As you say, it depends on the situation. Most ppl having a verbal altercation wouldn't understand why a stranger would step in.  It would be different if I was the manager of the location or if I was a police officer but otherwise I most likely couldn't say anything to diffuse the situation because I don't understand all the parameters of the argument.

If it was a physical confrontation, it again depends on the circumstances. Many times ppl, especially guys, don't want someone interferring in their fight. Still, if one person is getting the crap beat out of him, I'd intervene. Neither may appreciate it and I could even suffer legal repercussions or vendettas because of it. Notheless, I wouldn't let someone get seriously injured if I could prevent it.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 19, 2005)

I think you'd need to provide a little more information as something like that would entirely depend on cricumstances, who the 1st and 2nd party where, how serious, what about, etc.


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## arnisador (Oct 19, 2005)

Verbal confrontation? Watch and wait. Physical? It would depend. Definitely call the police. Whether I'd get physically involved or not would depend on many matters.

I always tell my kids "Get out of there, call the police, and let many men with guns handle the situation." But if someone was in danger of being badly hurt I'd likely tru to break things up--not necessarily come in swinging if it could be avoided, but first try yelling, throwing stuff, telling them the cops are coming, etc.

It's so hard to say without a specific situation. What I'd do if someone was being stabbed is different from what I'd do for two high school kids swinging at one another.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 19, 2005)

I think getting ready to call the cops is the best bet.  Both of the other parties may not appreciate your intruding (depending on their relationship), and they may both turn on you and then you are the bad guy all the way around.  Tough call.


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## Lisa (Oct 19, 2005)

Scary situation cause nowadays you don't know what someone is packing.  Getting too closely involved could cause more of a problem then helping with the solution and you don't want to become a statistic.  Good samaritan is always a good idea.  Like Arni said "Let many men with guns handle the situation."  Make the 911 call.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 19, 2005)

There just isn't enough data to go on. In my opinion if two people are fighting and neither one is trying to get away, I would think it is merely a "match" or "competition" and I probably wouldn't do anything and let them wear themselves out.

 On the other hand, if someone is clearly trying to get away and cannot because they are being assaulted, that is different (this would depend on the situation and my proximity to them) at the very least call the police and make note of the details of the assailant to report to the police.

 Then there are the assaults (muggings and so forth) that happen very quickly and again depending on the situation, you may not have time to do anything other than call the police to report it.

 Again, if two people are arguing it isn't a "situation", if both are clearly going at each other, it is a "match" and it might be best to let them beat the snot out of each other as long as they are not damaging property or bystanders or just call the police.

  It all depends on the situation.


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## Kenpobldr (Oct 19, 2005)

I agree with Arnisador, watch and wait. Let them visually be aware that you are there. Have your cell phone pre dialed to 911 just in case you need to hit send.

Should it get to the point of being phyical and how one would react is a difficult question. I would definetly get involved if it was say man against a woman or even someone being bullied. If it was a situation of two adults being idiots at a local sports event like hockey or soccer, one might be able to difuse the situation verberly by stearnly reminding the idiots that there are kids arround or that the police have been called.


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## shesulsa (Oct 19, 2005)

Depends on the situation. I'll generally stay out of  verbal confrontations and will call cops on physical ones.  I imagine if there were exacting circumstances where it was completely obvious who the bad guy was and who the victim was, I MIGHT consider getting involved, but I also have children to think about, so ... I like to let the men with badges and guns take care of that stuff - like Lisa said so wisely: you never know what they're packing.


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## MJS (Oct 19, 2005)

Great replies!!  I notice that many said it would depend on the situation and some said that there is not enough info. to go on.  As I said in my closing post, the possibilities are endless.  It could be anything from an attempted mugging, a verbal/physical fight in a club or bar, a verbal/physical domestic, etc.  

For myself, I'd have to say it would depend on the situation also.  I think that I'd lean more towards calling the police and giving them as many details (clothing desc., # of people involved, weapons, etc.) as I can, considering I don't know anything about the situation that is taking place.  

Getting involved in a physical way could end up meaning more problems for me.  Will both parties turn their anger on me?  Will someone pull a weapon?


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## Grenadier (Oct 20, 2005)

If you don't know who they are, or why they are fighting, it's really no different than the shoot / no shoot / wait and see scenario that is taught in every basic firearms class.  This is especially true if all they are doing is simply yelling at each other.  Unless you are sure of the details, don't get involved, aside from a simple notification to the law enforcement authorities.  

 Even in situations where two people are throwing punches at each other, stick to the advice above; don't get involved unless you are sure of the details that led to this situation.  Call the police, or have someone call them.  

 You never know what the situation could be.  Perhaps one of the brawlers is an undercover law enforcement officer that's trying to take down the other guy.  Maybe one of them is a victim fighting back against a mugger.  Which one is which though?  Who is in the right, and who is in the wrong?  If you intervened and hurt the good guy, you could easily be in a world of trouble.  On many occasions, a would-be good samaritan ended up helping the wrong guy.  

 Now, if you know what happened, for example, some mugger just tried to steal another person's wallet or assaulted him / her, then it's your choice to intervene.  Whether this means using your martial arts knowledge, or using a firearm / melee weapon is your choice...Remember, knowledge of the situation beats ignorance of the situation every time.


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## Loki (Oct 20, 2005)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> If you don't know who they are, or why they are fighting, it's really no different than the shoot / no shoot / wait and see scenario that is taught in every basic firearms class. This is especially true if all they are doing is simply yelling at each other. Unless you are sure of the details, don't get involved, aside from a simple notification to the law enforcement authorities.
> 
> Even in situations where two people are throwing punches at each other, stick to the advice above; don't get involved unless you are sure of the details that led to this situation. Call the police, or have someone call them.
> 
> ...


 Great post, disturbing avatar.


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## Mark L (Oct 20, 2005)

I came out of a store into the parking lot a few weeks ago on Sunday morning, there were two guys alternating between barking at each other and throwing the occasional haymaker, only one out of about ten thrown actually landed.  I approached within 20 feet and watched, I don't know why they were at it and I didn't care to step into it. They were both big men, but very little skill.  Others jumped in to stop it, without incident.  It bothered me a bit that I didn't do anything, but I had my boys with me and it didn't look like a serious  beating was about to take place.

A few days ago I read in the local paper (Boston Globe) about a guy that tried to intervene in a fight, he took two punches to the face, fell to the ground and died.  Now I don't feel so bad about not doing anything.  You never know what's going to happen ...


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## Icewater (Oct 24, 2005)

Would you all really call the police?  For a fight, even a good one I think I would just let it happen so long as noone was in danger of permanent damage.  I don't think I would call the cops unless a weapon was brandished.  And I don't think I would step in unless it was obvious someone was planning serious injury.

Here's a thought. Would you step in to help someone that was woefully outnumbered?  I witnessed a guy getting beat by a gang of about 15 people at a high school football game.  I didn't intervene, but ran to get help.  By the time I got a cop there it was over and the guy was pretty banged up.  I wanted to help, but looking at the mayhem I was sure that entering the frey would wind me up in the hospital as well.  Perhaps it would have been different if I knew the guy.

Icewater


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## arnisador (Oct 24, 2005)

Running to get help was smarter. Whether it's 15-to-1 or 15-to-2 doesn't make a lot of difference.

Would I call the cops? Depends on the situation, but in many cases, sure. I don't want to spend a year in jail like Jerry Seinfeld et al.


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## Maltair (Oct 24, 2005)

I broke up a fight at work once, I knew both parties involved and had an idea what the dispute was about. Why wasn't really a consern, but the fact that I knew them and that I wasn't going to be assalted in return made a big differance in my discision. 
If it's 2 guys I don't know, I'd just watch the show. If one guy is out and the other guy is still pounding away, then I'd probably step in. 
I feel I'd would rather take the risk of getting hurt myself then the risk of watching a guy get killed/seriously hurt, and knowen I could have done something to stop it, but didn't.

I had a friend in highschool that tried to break up a fight between 2 girls, the boyfriend of one of the girls thought he was in the fight, stabbed him a number of times. My friend died on the operating table 7 times. Lost his eye and still talks like a frog.


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## Ceicei (Oct 25, 2005)

I've been lurking with this thread for quite a while.

It is hard to get involved because of the potential for the situation to get worse.  If I do get involved, it better be a really, really, *good* reason for me to get involved.  That means I would have to see how it progresses, not just simply assume by having just arrived when it already started.   Bottom line, it usually isn't a good idea for a third party to intervene unless there is a compelling reason.  Sometimes the best thing is NOT to stick around.

What are my possible reasons?  If adult(s) is/are obviously harrassing minor children.  If a male is being totally brutal against a female.  A person that is a threat to society (such as a robber).

How would I get involved?  The first thing always, I would try to make sure my family and I are out of harm's way.  If it is prudent for that situation to contact law enforcement, I would.  If I must intervene (and this is always risky), I may try to de-escalate verbally.  If I must make it physical (either with martial arts or weapons) as a last resort, then it is already to the point I commit myself.  Once that decision is made, it cannot be a half-commitment.  

There is too much gray area in this "what if" scenario.  What will we really do?  We can propose ideas of what could be done, but once something actually happens--only then we respond with action (or inaction).

We can hope that things work out favorably for everyone.  If not, then to make it out alive with the least possible injury to ourselves.

- Ceicei


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## Tgace (Oct 25, 2005)

There are lots of variables. A stranger vs. friend or family member being attacked. A group of kids in a parking lot brawling vs. your next door neighbor calling for help.... There is no one size fits all answer to the question, however in a totally unknown situation, calling 911 is always the best option.


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## Shaolinwind (Oct 25, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Just wondering what everyones thoughts are about getting involved as a 3rd party in a confrontation? If there were two people in a verbal altercation, what would you do as a bystander? Get involved, call the police, do nothing, etc.? Once you state what you'd do, I'd also be interested in hearing why.
> 
> This does not have to be limited to just a verbal altercation. The possibilities are endless.


 
 Just the other week there was backed up traffic due to a major accident on the parkway, and for some reason two motorists were out of their cars and screaming bloody murder.  I grabbed my cell and dialed up the authorities.

As for why, I see it this way.  Maybe I caused un-necessary trouble for either the actors or the police, or maybe I stopped them from hurting each other. Who knows.


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2005)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> Just the other week there was backed up traffic due to a major accident on the parkway, and for some reason two motorists were out of their cars and screaming bloody murder. I grabbed my cell and dialed up the authorities.
> 
> As for why, I see it this way. Maybe I caused un-necessary trouble for either the actors or the police, or maybe I stopped them from hurting each other. Who knows.


 
I don't think you caused trouble for anyone.  You did what you felt was best at that time.  I'd rather call the police and let them deal with it, than get out of my car, and risk having both of them turn on me, or possibly have one of them pull a weapon.

Mike


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## bluemtn (Oct 30, 2005)

From personal experiences at work, it would strongly depend on the situation.  If it's an argument, just let them hash it out.  If you suspect there might be more involvement, call 911.  Like it was said earlier, you don't know what might happen, and I sure don't want to get in the middle of anything.


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 30, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Just wondering what everyones thoughts are about getting involved as a 3rd party in a confrontation? If there were two people in a verbal altercation, what would you do as a bystander? Get involved, call the police, do nothing, etc.? Once you state what you'd do, I'd also be interested in hearing why.
> 
> This does not have to be limited to just a verbal altercation. The possibilities are endless.


 
It's a lose, lose situation regardless of what you do. Like the others have said, keep cell ready to dial 911, get to safety yourself, protect your children etc.

However, sometimes you can intervene. Years ago I was a receptionist/sales assistant at a spa store on weekends and two older men, co-workers but full salesman (my superiors) had an argument that was becoming physical. I begged them, taking full advantage of my youth, not to "go outside". Since neither really wanted to, but neither was willing to back down, my "terror" gave both of them a way out. They weren't backing down from each other - they were keeping a "kid" from getting spooked.

On the other hand, when I was at a McDonald's with my 12 year old niece and a very loud and explosive argument began between a customer (jerk) and a manager (not a jerk, but clearly out of his depth), I quickly got her and myself out of there. My first priority and responsibility was her safety. I even made her leave her food, which she wasn't happy with, but 90% of effective self-defence is simply a willingness to leave quickly even if it means abandoning your "stuff", allowing yourself to lose an argument (not having to get the last word), or looking like a "chicken" (who really cares?).


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## arnisador (Oct 30, 2005)

Kenpobldr said:
			
		

> Let them visually be aware that you are there.



This makes such a big difference! A standard technique for dispersing a large crowd is...taking pictures. It bothers peopel in a crowd to see someone snapping their picture. They think, Will I get in trouble later? It works.


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## arnisador (Oct 30, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> On the other hand, when I was at a McDonald's with my 12 year old niece and a very loud and explosive argument began between a customer (jerk) and a manager (not a jerk, but clearly out of his depth), I quickly got her and myself out of there. My first priority and responsibility was her safety. I even made her leave her food, which she wasn't happy with, but 90% of effective self-defence is simply a willingness to leave quickly even if it means abandoning your "stuff", allowing yourself to lose an argument (not having to get the last word), or looking like a "chicken" (who really cares?).



Lots of great sense in both your stories--parents all the time give kids a way out by saying "Blame the fact that you can't do X on me"--but this one especially displays the kind of common sense self-defense that, frankly, obviates the need for martial arts training. It's always tempting to watch something like this--but so much smarter to leave.


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