# How has the passing of Remy effected Modern Arnis



## ppko (Aug 1, 2004)

Just wandering how remys passing has effected Modern Arnis


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 1, 2004)

Politically?  

We're seeing the same dynamic with Modern Arnis as we've seen with Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, The Japan Karate Association and Ed Parker's Kenpo.  When you get systems that have such strong personalities (Lee, Nakayma, Parker) and they die, there is factionalism and strife.  The glue that holds the system together is gone.  People feud, and various competing organizations sprout up.

This isn't always a bad thing...but it often results in much wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Regards,


Steve


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## ppko (Aug 1, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Politically?
> 
> We're seeing the same dynamic with Modern Arnis as we've seen with Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, The Japan Karate Association and Ed Parker's Kenpo.  When you get systems that have such strong personalities (Lee, Nakayma, Parker) and they die, there is factionalism and strife.  The glue that holds the system together is gone.  People feud, and various competing organizations sprout up.
> 
> ...


In your oppinion is there any way to not have that happen would it help if Remy would have left a sokeship to one person would that put a stop to a lot of the fighting


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## Cruentus (Aug 1, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> In your oppinion is there any way to not have that happen would it help if Remy would have left a sokeship to one person would that put a stop to a lot of the fighting



Well...that's the myth.

I don't think it would have helped much. People will follow who they are going to follow, and do what they are going to do, regardless of "who the leader" is. I don't think infighting would have stopped...it would have only changed the dynamics.

Besides...to dictate one "leader" sort of negates what Remy taught about "making it your own." It also negates FMA tradition.Besides... If you make it your own and do good work, then you don't need to ride on the coatails of a title or a belt or a successorship deligation. That goes for any art, really.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Aug 2, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> In your oppinion is there any way to not have that happen would it help if Remy would have left a sokeship to one person would that put a stop to a lot of the fighting



It may have made some thing easier, but people follow who they want to.

 :asian:


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## loki09789 (Aug 2, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Politically?
> 
> We're seeing the same dynamic with Modern Arnis as we've seen with Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, The Japan Karate Association and Ed Parker's Kenpo. When you get systems that have such strong personalities (Lee, Nakayma, Parker) and they die, there is factionalism and strife. The glue that holds the system together is gone. People feud, and various competing organizations sprout up.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, I think that RP left two legacies and the majority of people that do the squeeky wheel talking have chosen to follow the behavioral/personallity example more than the "make it your own" legacy that RP put forth on the training floor.

Though RP was a strong personallity/generally well intentioned and a hugely charasmatic and skilled martial artist, he wasn't necessarily strong/skilled as a leader. There were times when decisive and 'unpopular' choices needed to be made for the sake of quality and RP side stepped making them for what ever reason. 

Whether he didn't want the role of 'leader' and was putting the burden of responsibility back on the 'players" shoulders to figure out, he didn't want to hurt his livelyhood/pocket book by alienating a group/area by making a decision(because this was his sole source of income), or he was just not comfortable with people being upset with him and procrastinated about these decisions I really don't know.

In the end he was the leader and tough decisions have to be made when you are the leader and there were times when consistency of language/terms, standards of rank/quality, clearly defined administrative duties/titles/functions AND the conviction to uphold these outlines would have eliminated a lot of the problems when he was alive and avoided some of the problems that exist after his death.  Remy NEVER had a universally cohesive organization.  He had regional pockets with nuances that were specific and unique to that group.  This made for wonderful variation but has hurt the MA community because it lacks a central set of 'experiences' that creates a community.  

Consider the analogy of Boot camp rivalries in the military.  In the Army you go to a basic training/AIT location because of your job type.  So, someone in the infantry will say that "your boot wasn't nearly as cool as mine because we did XYZ" to a driver/cook/MP..... or in the Marines there is the friendly "Hollywood Marine" jibe from those who graduated "Parris Island"...

Like this military analogy though, you will have some who only see it as a quirky thing to make friendly jokes and others will take it far more personally and try and stake everything on making their "Boot/RP experience" the ONE TRUE THING instead of seeing it as part of the right of passage into the "Military/RP Modern Arnis" community that bonds them together in a 'band of brothers' (and sisters BTW).

I don't know if this parallels the other 'greats' that you mentioned, but RP left his own legacy.  People will chose which one of the two directions to go with it.

The people who have chosen to take his message, work hard and "Make it their own" as he hoped are taking the forward progress of MA that RP dreamed of according to his floor presentation, books/interviews and videos. 

Those who want to continue reproducing the 'core' or 'authentic' MA according to the material, drills, skills that he taught on the floor while they studied with him.

The problem is that, among the 'core/authentic' people, they can't even agree on what is 'authentic' because there was no real standardized core from which growth would come.  Add to that the problem of anyone willing to acknowledge, respect or just recognize that the "make it your own" types that are doing legitimate MA work (though it doesn't smell, taste, look, sound like "what RP taught" exclusively).

Dan Anderson has mentioned numerous times how RP taught differently at different times to different people/areas/countries...

I don't know if people really were/are ready to celebrate those differences of what the 'core' was let alone what the "make it your own" stuff will look like.

I wasn't a "Remy Original" by any means, and only met the man twice and was lucky enough to train with him privately once.  But, more importantly, I have had conversations with, and read much by those who have both chosen to be "Authentiques" and those who have chosen to be 
"Make it your own"ers (MIYONERS) and find that the focus/support/justification on and individual level really tells me what they care about.

"Authentiques" care about lineage, reputation, acknowledgement of legitimacy in the Martial arts community while MIYONERS care about the art and the innovation/creation that can spin off of the core.

BOTH distinctions care about quality, art and keeping it rooted in MA basics, they just prioritize things differently.


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 2, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Politically?
> 
> We're seeing the same dynamic with Modern Arnis as we've seen with Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, The Japan Karate Association and Ed Parker's Kenpo.  When you get systems that have such strong personalities (Lee, Nakayma, Parker) and they die, there is factionalism and strife.  The glue that holds the system together is gone.  People feud, and various competing organizations sprout up.  This isn't always a bad thing...but it often results in much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
> Regards,
> Steve



This says it all.

From a technical point of view, Modern Arnis will go the way of Tai Chi and Bagua.  There are numerous schools of Tai Chi, the most notable being the Yang, Wu, Sun, and Chen schools.  They function from the same set of principles yet have different expressions.   The founder of bagua taught previously trained martial artists so, again, you have a number of different Bagua schools operating off the same set of principles having different expressions.

Tim Harman and I move differently while having the same teacher.  Neither of us are wrong.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 2, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> In your oppinion is there any way to not have that happen would it help if Remy would have left a sokeship to one person would that put a stop to a lot of the fighting



It would have made it easier for the person he recognized, perhaps.  The friction between personalities would have still caused division.

In twenty years I'd expect even more factionalism...not just in Modern Arnis, but in other systems as well.  Its a process that seems unavoidable.


Regards,


Steve


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## dearnis.com (Aug 2, 2004)

Steve analyzed it pretty well.


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## Northern (Aug 2, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> This says it all.
> 
> From a technical point of view, Modern Arnis will go the way of Tai Chi and Bagua.  There are numerous schools of Tai Chi, the most notable being the Yang, Wu, Sun, and Chen schools.  They function from the same set of principles yet have different expressions.   The founder of bagua taught previously trained martial artists so, again, you have a number of different Bagua schools operating off the same set of principles having different expressions.
> 
> ...



Are you the Sun school?


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 2, 2004)

Northern said:
			
		

> Are you the Sun school?


Yes, the Ander_sun_ school.   :asian: 
However, if you mean the "Sun school" Sun Lu Tang formed his own school of Tai Chi by adding elements of Bagua and Xingyi into it, then no.  I teach pretty much the same actions my teacher did.  I explain them far more scientifically than he explained them to me, though.  That is the MA-80 way of doing things.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Northern (Aug 2, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Yes, the Ander_sun_ school.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



I award you Grandmaster of Puns! 
And believe me I am a sanctioned body when it comes to puns.

You added to your post, so I will add to mine... no, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the son/sun observation.  Although there may have been a bit of a hint of a cirlce reference in there... just for good measure.


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## Emptyglass (Aug 2, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I think that RP left two legacies and the majority of people that do the squeeky wheel talking have chosen to follow the behavioral/personallity example more than the "make it your own" legacy that RP put forth on the training floor.
> 
> ...
> 
> BOTH distinctions care about quality, art and keeping it rooted in MA basics, they just prioritize things differently.



Paul:

This is one of the best summations on the subject I think I've ever seen. Nicely done.

Rich Curren


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