# Plum Flower Stump Training



## yak sao (Dec 18, 2009)

As soon as the ground thaws I am going to set out some plum flower stumps for footwork training.

I'm going to put the plum flower pattern out (5 stumps)  to practice the mook joong footwork on plus 3 or 4 more for other stepping drills.

I did this back when I practiced southern shaolin (using a "5" pattern on a dice) and not only was it a lot of fun and took the drudgery out of training the basics, but my balance and rooting were greatly enhanced.
Does anyone else do this with their WT/WC training?


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## CRCAVirginia (Dec 18, 2009)

Yes, CRCA Wing Chun does, also training on top of the posts.  I currently don't have posts so I lay out focus mitts or whatever will pass as an obstacle on my training floor.  I also have a Plywood Board painted with eight lines for eight direction stepping footwork.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 18, 2009)

Used too,

But also used for Gerk Jong or Kicking structures on the posts, was also very useful. Can also use for Da Saam Sing, very practicial. I'm hoping to set up some in the next few years as well...

As of now I don't have any posts so I utilize bricks instead either width wise or height wise depending on what is being trained. 

Actually I believe Liang Shou Yu had a decent training method with the bricks as mentioned for Bagua Zhang in his book co-authored by Yang Jwing Ming. (Worth a read)


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## geezer (Dec 19, 2009)

yak sao said:


> As soon as the ground thaws I am going to set out some plum flower stumps for footwork training.
> 
> I'm going to put the plum flower pattern out (5 stumps)  to practice the mook joong footwork on plus 3 or 4 more for other stepping drills.
> 
> ...



Yak-- post a picture, or better, a video when you get the posts up. Along the same lines, have you ever worked out on the "tripodial dummy" you know the three posts set up for kicking, stepping, sweeps, etc.?


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## yak sao (Dec 19, 2009)

geezer said:


> Yak-- post a picture, or better, a video when you get the posts up.
> 
> *Will do*
> 
> Along the same lines, have you ever worked out on the "tripodial dummy" you know the three posts set up for kicking, stepping, sweeps, etc.?


 
Nope, not yet, My Si-fu said he will teach that after we wrap up the dummy cirriculum....hopefully this spring. 

Did LT show you any of that back in the day?


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## bully (Dec 20, 2009)

Not sure what you mean.

Any chance of a drawing?

Overhead with steps?

Stick men done in paint will do.

I'm not proud ;-)


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## yak sao (Dec 20, 2009)

I've tried to put the pattern on here but every time I try, it puts it all over to one side of the page and doesn't make any sense.

I was using circles (Capital O's) on the keyboard to lay out the pattern but no luck....if anyone's more computer savy than I am (which is probably every one of you) how can I do that. To try and describe it in words, imagine a pentagon, and at every corner there would be a stump in the ground, this would be the plum flower pattern. 
The bottom two corners are the width of your character two stance. The top corner would represent where the wooden dummy would be and the two off to either angle would be where you would step around to attack the dummy as in the first section of the wooden dummy form.In the movies they are always several feet off the ground with stakes sticking up out of the ground to kill you if you fall off. But they don't need to be that high...the ones I used to have were only 18 inches or so high (they were buried down about another 18 inches with a layer of gravel under them for drainage) And you simply stand on the tops of the posts and practice the (air) wooden dummy form. This really regulates your stepping and helps with balance and rooting.


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## geezer (Dec 21, 2009)

yak sao said:


> ...you simply stand on the tops of the posts and practice the (air) wooden dummy form. This really regulates your stepping and helps with balance and rooting.



Yak, I've never used the Plum-Blossom piles. I did mark the five-points around my dummy to help me get better angles and consistent footwork. But the dummy footwork that I was taught mainly involves the standard WT rear weighted shuffling/dragging step. If you do the form on elevated posts, you would have to modify your footwork to move from post to post. Or am I missing something?

Oh, and regarding the_ tripodial dummy_... Yeah, A long time ago I saw LT demonstrate some exercises using improvised props, since there was no such dummy set up. But if there was a "form" (or if LT or Kernspecht have since developed one) I don't know it. Honestly there is _so_ much to learn!


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## yak sao (Dec 21, 2009)

geezer said:


> Yak, I've never used the Plum-Blossom piles. I did mark the five-points around my dummy to help me get better angles and consistent footwork. But the dummy footwork that I was taught mainly involves the standard WT rear weighted shuffling/dragging step. If you do the form on elevated posts, you would have to modify your footwork to move from post to post. Or am I missing something?
> 
> 
> *The way my si-fu explained the dummy footwork to me is there is no need to shuffle/drag your feet during the dummy form because the dummy does not move as would a live opponent. By being the correct distance from the dummy you are where you need to be, therefore no need to drag in. If you find yourself having to drag in to get close enough, then you stepped too far away to begin with. Also, when you wedge in on the dummy, it won't move as would a live opponent, whereas a live opponent would be uprooted and you would need to follow them.*
> ...


 
same here...my si-fu had seen drills and exercises only from LT back in HK. If there is/was a form he never saw it.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 26, 2009)

Bully, Here's a couple of examples. 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnekJp_j9J8/R2qzkk89hQI/AAAAAAAAAZc/H1xGZ_pnENI/s1600-h/DSC05271.JPGhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnekJp_j9J8/R2qzkk89hQI/AAAAAAAAAZc/H1xGZ_pnENI/s1600-h/DSC05271.JPG









That's about all I can find right off, but I do have some old Chinese Gong Fu books that have diagrams I'll see if I can scan it & post it. 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnekJp_j9J8/R2qzkk89hQI/AAAAAAAAAZc/H1xGZ_pnENI/s320/DSC05271.JPG


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## bully (Dec 27, 2009)

I would do myself an injury on those, am about as nimble as a rhino on rollerskates.

Will have a dig around and see if I can work out the overhead view. Probably better for my health that I draw marks on the ground.

What are the movements/drills? Which do you go to etc??

Edit...found this

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=951574

they call them something different, posts 8&9 show some pictures.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 27, 2009)

Actually Mei Hua(&#26757;&#33457 is the same thing as Plum Flower (Canto is Moy Fa)
and then jong means a structure, so its the same name...

There are actually smaller or larger poles(different diagrams as well) & then there are poles for Gerk Jong (Kicking poles which resemble more of a Tripodle(sp?) dummy that was mentioned previous.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 27, 2009)

> What are the movements/drills? Which do you go to etc??


 

There generally aren't any distinct movements per say, Wah Lum does different types of Gei Bun Dong Zho or basic movements. But the training will build dexterity, balance, co-ordination, flexibility & of course strength.

As far as I know with Wing Chun we generally practice forms like Siu Nim Tau(sometimes one legged) or basic footworks with kicks etc... but the variations & possibilities are as endless as one's imagination. 

So its really up to you what you want to do with them but I have never heard of an exact forms for the training just maybe whatever form you want to practice.


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## Plateau (Mar 17, 2010)

yak sao said:


> As soon as the ground thaws I am going to set out some plum flower stumps for footwork training.
> 
> I'm going to put the plum flower pattern out (5 stumps)  to practice the mook joong footwork on plus 3 or 4 more for other stepping drills.
> 
> ...


Why wait until spring to work plum flower training?  Active Plateau Dynamics created a new product called the plateau.  Here's the facebook page  http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Active-Plateau-Dynamics-LLC/155746976529?ref=ts 
With training techniques.  You're more then welcomed to fan it.  I have the wooden poles too but prefer using these forgiving plastic units over the poles.
The APD website is under construction.  p)


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## Vajramusti (Mar 17, 2010)

Back when I was teaching in New Mexico before returning to Arizona. a student freind of mine and I had plum blossom posts in the ground- all at the same height for practicing wing chun footwork. We even did chi sao on them when it was snowing!
But you don't need plum blossom posts these days when we work out on very flat hard surfaces in schools-rather than in the country side.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 4, 2015)

Plateau said:


> Why wait until spring to work plum flower training?  Active Plateau Dynamics created a new product called the plateau.  Here's the facebook page  Welcome to Facebook - Log In Sign Up or Learn More
> With training techniques.  You're more then welcomed to fan it.  I have the wooden poles too but prefer using these forgiving plastic units over the poles.
> The APD website is under construction.  p)



Sorry to dig up an old thread, but has anyone here ever bought/used these products? Looking for feedback or buyer review. I'm going to set up a Mui Fa in my backyard but stumbled across this and was wondering if anyone here has experience with them? Thx.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 4, 2015)

how high off the ground are   the Plum Flower Posts usualy


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 4, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> how high off the ground are   the Plum Flower Posts usualy



18 inches


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 4, 2015)

thank you  
the pictures I had seen looked much higher


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 4, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> thank you
> the pictures I had seen looked much higher



Perhaps it's design, composition, and height is based on individual wing chun family's(?).


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 4, 2015)

possibly just the angle of the photo I guess although you suggestion of "family" differences could possibly be part also.  again thank for the information


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## Vajramusti (Jan 4, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> 18 inches


-----------------------------------------------------
About right- in my Las Cruces, NM days (79 to 85)my friend  Kurt Saenz and I had 6 posts in the ground-\5 for the plum blossoms and one at the center. Did footwork on them and chi sao as well. In Tempe my student Brian Brantner painted properly distanced 5 plum blossoms on the floor for plum blossom footwork.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 5, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------
> About right- in my Las Cruces, NM days (79 to 85)my friend  Kurt Saenz and I had 6 posts in the ground-\5 for the plum blossoms and one at the center. Did footwork on them and chi sao as well. In Tempe my student Brian Brantner painted properly distanced 5 plum blossoms on the floor for plum blossom footwork.



Cool! Yeah, same here. I was trained and used the six post design for WC footwork, chi sao, chi gerk, etc. It was very unique training for sure. They were about 18 -24 inches high if I remember correctly.


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