# Co-Ed in the Ring?



## Si-Je (Apr 14, 2009)

I was just wondering what you guys thought about MMA fights going a bit co-ed?
I've seen the women in MMA fights and their really talented, very strong, and some even weigh in at 145lbs. at times. And I wondered since some cage events have the men's feather, bantam, and light weight divisions and that these divisions seem to be filling up in the men's divisions why not go co-ed?
There seems to be a problem at times filling a women's card due to just not enough women fighters, and I was thinking why not have women fight men as long as they're in the same weight class?
A man that's 125lbs could match up against a female that's the same weight, couldn't they? Or would there be other issues that I'm not thinking of?
I was really just interested in hearing your viewpoint on this. And wondering if there is a place for having women and men compete in the cage.


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## celtic_crippler (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm down! Especially if I can roll with Gina Carano! She can put me in a triangle choke any time....heh. 


...hey, you had to expect this kind of response. LOL 

In all seriousness...I'm down with Women's rights. IF you can do the job, then more power to you. 

Of course, some people with a more "traditional" mind-set would be wholely opposed to seeing a male smash a female in the mush. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Southern Boy and momma taught me early on that under no circumstances should a man hit a woman....*BUT*....if she's a trained fighter and voluntarily gets in the ring for competition...that's a different story.


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## MJS (Apr 14, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> I'm down! Especially if I can roll with Gina Carano! She can put me in a triangle choke any time....heh.


 
I 2nd that!!


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## MJS (Apr 14, 2009)

As for the original question....not sure if it would ever happen, but hey, its worth giving it a shot.  I don't know the ratio of female fighters, especially here in the states, but even if it wasn't co-ed and say the UFC had a womens division, I'm sure it would better the sport even moreso.


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## Si-Je (Apr 14, 2009)

lol! I knew there would be a fun response to guys rolling with gals.
Those women are mean in the ring. 

I was just noticing that in WEC they seem to do more light weight, feather weight and bantam weight fights than the heavier classes. (for example) 
Isn't there another light weight division in there too?  Not sure.

But, it just seemed to me that there's alot of guy out there fighting in those weight classes and that the women's matches are a bit limited in who they can fight. There's just as many women fighting than the men.  Or maybe they want to but there's not enough of a venue for the women that want to start out but can't get on a fight card.
I thought that maybe these ladies could fight in the lighter weight classes with the men to give them more of a chance to get a fight.


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## searcher (Apr 14, 2009)

IMO, if you give it enough time there will be more women fighting and hence more female fights.

As far as men vs. women, even if they are of the same weight, the guy will be stronger.    Maybe not more talented, but stronger none the less.   And I for one, don't want to watch a guy beat on a female.


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## jarrod (Apr 14, 2009)

i don't think it would even get sanctioned.  besides, it's lose/lose for the man.  if he wins, he's the guy who beats up on women.  if he loses, he's the guy who got beat up by a girl.

jf


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 14, 2009)

Exactly Jarrod it will never get sanctioned.  So in the end I think it is a moot point.


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## Si-Je (Apr 14, 2009)

searcher said:


> IMO, if you give it enough time there will be more women fighting and hence more female fights.
> 
> As far as men vs. women, even if they are of the same weight, the guy will be stronger. Maybe not more talented, but stronger none the less. And I for one, don't want to watch a guy beat on a female.


 

Is MMA all about the "strength" of the opponent?
So, the stronger MAN wins?


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## Si-Je (Apr 14, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Exactly Jarrod it will never get sanctioned. So in the end I think it is a moot point.


 
Your right, it will probably never get sanctioned. why?
Because it's a man's sport. An women are trying to get into it. and then so.....

Even if a woman learns MA she can't fight a guy even her weight because he's too strong for her? What's the point of learning martial arts then?

Even though, I don't want to start a fight. I just honestly wondered why this sort of thing is not equal?
I'd rather see a woman and a man fight it out than two women beat the hell out of eachother! Just me. I guess...
Anyways., I think there are several professional female fighters that could hold their own against a guy their same weight.
Hey. It's fair isn't it? They are the same size.
I really don't care if the man that fights the woman loses ego because he beats her or loses to her.

Which is the man's biggest scare? To beat a woman or to be beaten by her?
Ah...
that's why it will never happen.
Because a man can never gain honor fighting a woman, even if she is a fighter.  
No equality in martial arts for men and women,
no equality in the world. Right?
If a guy loses to a girl then he's a wimp.
If he wins, then he's an *******?

I think that this mentality needs to be laid to rest. competition is competition. and a fight is a fight.
If someone has the "balls" to get in the ring and fight then it shouldn't matter what race, nationality, religion, or SEX they are. A fighter is a fighter.

If the UFC has no gumption to even have a women's division much less let women fight men (which is a very revolutionary idea, I know) but then well.... they are discrimating. And they are wrong to not have a women's division at that kind of pay level. 
As we say in Texas., "thats' ********!"
Let the gals fight if they want to! And.. well...
They want to real bad...


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2009)

Well here goes my male side a woman should never put herself in the place of a man, I know woman can do everything a man can, but the simple facts are they cannot ever be a man. So be yourself andcompete with woman in the MA world. Beside what woman really wants to be beat on by Iceman or forest griffen or some of the others....none.


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## Si-Je (Apr 14, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Well here goes my male side a woman should never put herself in the place of a man, I know woman can do everything a man can, but the simple facts are they cannot ever be a man. So be yourself andcompete with woman in the MA world. Beside what woman really wants to be beat on by Iceman or forest griffen or some of the others....none.


 

Maybe. But, how would you know? 
There might be a gal that might want to fight such people.
And anyways, for the record we can do more than a man.
So, why not fight co-ed?
If a woman wants to, and trains for it, then why not? If they're in the same weight class? And if the woman wants to, and volenteers to. Why not?
Don't you guys like "underdogs"? lol


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## MJS (Apr 15, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Is MMA all about the "strength" of the opponent?
> So, the stronger MAN wins?


 
The following is my opinion only.  While strength does play a part, it seems that today, we see people muscle their way out of things, muscle their way into subs., etc., but what I feel is more important is the technique.  Perhaps why the strength is used so much, is because they're forgetting the cardinal rule....position before submission.  So, if your position sucks, of course you're going to have to muscle your way.

Royce...sure, he wasn't weak, but his position and technique were superior.  

Of course, defenders of strength will claim that this is the reason for weight classes.  I beg to differ.  Forget which UFC it was, but the entire match up consisted of smaller vs. larger guys.  And yes, the smaller guys did have wins.  Additionally, the current set up as far as rules go, was put into play so that the UFC would be sanctioned.  If we look closely, we will see boxing type rules, not the ones that we saw in the early days.


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## Carol (Apr 15, 2009)

Physiologically, a 125 pound man and a 125 pound women are not a match.   The man will have more lean muscle mass than the woman and the man will have more testosterone than the woman.  Testosterone plays many roles in the human body, including dulling pain and fatigue and speeding up healing from injury.   

Perhaps a more even match would be if the woman was one weight class higher than the man?

Either way...rather than seeing women fight men, I would much rather see more women getting in to the game and trying it out for themselves.  I do hope there is more of that in the near future.


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## Blindside (Apr 15, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Is MMA all about the "strength" of the opponent?
> So, the stronger MAN wins?



No, but attributes are really important, and on average men are stronger than women for the same weight.


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## jarrod (Apr 15, 2009)

MJS said:


> The following is my opinion only.  While strength does play a part, it seems that today, we see people muscle their way out of things, muscle their way into subs., etc., but what I feel is more important is the technique.  Perhaps why the strength is used so much, is because they're forgetting the cardinal rule....position before submission.  So, if your position sucks, of course you're going to have to muscle your way.
> 
> Royce...sure, he wasn't weak, but his position and technique were superior.
> 
> Of course, defenders of strength will claim that this is the reason for weight classes.  I beg to differ.  Forget which UFC it was, but the entire match up consisted of smaller vs. larger guys.  And yes, the smaller guys did have wins.  Additionally, the current set up as far as rules go, was put into play so that the UFC would be sanctioned.  If we look closely, we will see boxing type rules, not the ones that we saw in the early days.



you make some good points, but the sport has changed a lot since the david & goliath tournament you're referring to.  at that time many fighters were still one-dimensional, & if the smaller fighter could take the bigger one out of his element he could win.  now everyone is well-rounded, & the simple fact is that more fights are won on physical conditioning rather than technique (although that can't be overlooked either).  i'm a technician first & an athelete second (well maybe third or fourth, honestly) so i'd love it if it weren't that way, but it is. 

but if enough well-trained, well-conditioned women take an interest in competitive MMA, i'm sure the bigger organizations will create a woman's division.  almost every combat sport through history has followed the same course; it's a man's world, a few women blaze a trail for other women, then women's divisions start to be created. 

most of the women's MMA fights i've seen have been terrific fights.  i reffed a jujitsu tournament a couple weeks ago, & by far the most exciting matches were the women.

jf


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## Andrew Green (Apr 15, 2009)

Will never happen.

There have been a few boxing matches I think, but they where largely jokes where one of the top females was fed some nobody.  As a regular part of business it will never happen though. 

First footage of a man on top of a women dropping elbows and forearms to a already bloodied up face would hit every news station and paper and have every politician calling for a ban.

It's also unfair, weight classes are important in fights, and as has been said, men and women of the same weight are not going to be as even as 2 men or 2 women in terms of strength.

I think going co-ed would essentially kill women in MMA, the unequal footing would mean they would never headline shows, or fight for championship belts.  You would see a increase in injuries, and a huge public backlash.

It may not be PC, but the simple truth is that men and women are different, and when it comes to combat sports are on unequal grounds.


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## celtic_crippler (Apr 15, 2009)

"Never" is a long time...

We'll probably never see it in any of our lifetimes, but who's to say it won't happen some time in the future? 

I'm sure at some point in the past there was discussion as to whether a woman would ever be allowed to vote with men.


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## Carol (Apr 15, 2009)

In the Beijing Olympics, it seemed like if we weren't talking about Michael Phelps, we were talking about beach volleyball...and the women's team got a lot of attention.

Yes, it was a chance for the world to see fit women in bikinis.  The ladies also play one helluva good ball game.  I don't think the talents of the ladies, or respect for their athleticism would be quite the same if the teams were co-ed.

I see something similar with women MMA fighters. There are a few fighters out there (sadly not enough) with one helluva game, and I think there is potential for women to get more and more acclaim in the sport as the popularity grows.

But...circling back to what Si-Je is saying...there's not as many women fighting than there are men.   That leads to less opportunities, less chances to get experience, less ways to make a name for oneself.

Is there a feasible way around this stumbling block?


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 15, 2009)

There is no way it can be done with safety in mind. The male and female bodies are too different and the female and male weighing the same are still going to have a drastically different ratio of muscle and fat. I have no doubts that a woman can develop the skill level equal to that or greater then a man, that is not the issue. A woman may very well even be able to beat a man in an MMA fight. But there is no chance that a Woman will be able to compete at the top levels of their given weight classes with a man, the ceiling for their potential athletically at the top level is so much lower then that of a man that it is unfair to the women to put them in that position. No definitely not. It is just a freak show that has been used as a gimmick in the past, and has no place in professional sports venues.


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## MJS (Apr 15, 2009)

jarrod said:


> you make some good points, but the sport has changed a lot since the david & goliath tournament you're referring to. at that time many fighters were still one-dimensional, & if the smaller fighter could take the bigger one out of his element he could win. now everyone is well-rounded, & the simple fact is that more fights are won on physical conditioning rather than technique (although that can't be overlooked either). i'm a technician first & an athelete second (well maybe third or fourth, honestly) so i'd love it if it weren't that way, but it is.


 
I agree with the conditioning.  However, and I'm speaking for myself only here, but when I'm paying $50 for a fight, I wanna see something.  G&P seems to have taken over the technique aspect.  IMO, it doesnt take much skill to stand up in someones guard and rain down strikes on their head.  How about something technical?  But you're right...thats the way it is, and the way it'll most likely continue to be.



> but if enough well-trained, well-conditioned women take an interest in competitive MMA, i'm sure the bigger organizations will create a woman's division. almost every combat sport through history has followed the same course; it's a man's world, a few women blaze a trail for other women, then women's divisions start to be created.
> 
> most of the women's MMA fights i've seen have been terrific fights. i reffed a jujitsu tournament a couple weeks ago, & by far the most exciting matches were the women.
> 
> jf


 
I think it would be a big plus for the sport.


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## jarrod (Apr 15, 2009)

MJS said:


> I agree with the conditioning.  However, and I'm speaking for myself only here, but when I'm paying $50 for a fight, I wanna see something.  G&P seems to have taken over the technique aspect.  IMO, it doesnt take much skill to stand up in someones guard and rain down strikes on their head.  How about something technical?  But you're right...thats the way it is, and the way it'll most likely continue to be.



oh i'm with you on that.  i think two things altered that; one being the removal of headbutts & the other being stand-ups for stalling.  not that headbutting is technical, but the guy on bottom damn well had to have an active, technical guard or he was going to get bloody fast.  same thing with stand ups, too often you'll see the bottom man stall out for time rather than actually work.  

but i'm veering off topic here, my apologies.  i have seen some co-ed grappling & judo matches/exhibitions, which i think is great.  maybe it's sexist of me, but i'm just not interested in seeing a man hit a woman.  

also, there is the issue of any inherent prejudices of the officials.  it's not hard to imagine most male refs stopping fights early so as to "protect" the woman, even if it's not consciously done.  

jf


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## teekin (Apr 15, 2009)

Once again we go back to evolution. The human male was designed for conflict, the ability to inflict and sustain damage. Heavier bone structure ( more ossification, thicker cartilage pads, thicker synovial fluid, blah, blah blah), higher ratio of fast twitch muscles, larger visual cortex, less sensitive skin, thicker outer dermal layer....well the list just keeps going. MMA is an extension of combat men were designed to do and are beautifully suited for. Millions of years of evolution, with the genetic mistakes being wiped out, made it so. 
 Women did not have to develope the same way, we developed those attributes that created a succesful society. Communication, language, emotion, endurance, smell, logic, empathy, tactile sensate, hearing, balance, fine motor skills, attention to detail, patience, fat stores.
 You can rail all you want, but a man and a woman of equal size, weight and skill in combat, the man has the advantage simply because he is a man. The "y" chomasome and all it entails.
lori


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## Si-Je (Apr 15, 2009)

Ok. Look I used to fly planes and it's been proven that women can multi-task more than men, and your saying men see better? This has been disproven. I've been tested for my perifial vision and it is above average to that of a man.
Faster twitch reflexes? I beg to differ. My reflexes best most men. My reaction time is better than most men. I've flow airplanes with men and have been better than some of my peirs, who were men.

As for women not being able to reach their peak and compete at a higher professional level with men I think that is very false. I've seen female bodybuilders that chunk weight around as much as their male counterparts of their weight class. A woman with the same money for trainers, diet, time, etc. as a man at a professional level will be able to reach the same levels of conditioning and fitness as her male counter parts.

As for men being "specially designed" for conflict and combat I have a hard time with that. Look at nature. Tell that to a female lion who does all the hunting and killing and protection of the cubs. Tell that to the female hawk that does the same thing. As we are the human "animal" I find that women have the same potiential for combat. The only difference is that for the past 2,000 years societies train, teach, and hinder females from being combative, or in some cultures even from being assertive.

The ancient Celts their women fought alongside the men in battle often. And may men were trained for combat by women. over 2,000 years ago of course. The Isralie army has women in combat and have come to find that the females are some of their best soldiers and fighters. 

But, we disagree on some of these things. So the perceptions and limitations of the mind is what will truely create the celing to what a person can do. This is an individual descision, and the individual decides what their limitations are. I'd ware people not to place unwarrented limitations on individuals espectially to generalize a group of individuals with undue limitations. You may find yourself unhappily surprised.

Now I did wonder about this because MMA relys so much on strength, so their may be merrit to women and men not being able to compete fairly. But a woman knows about a man's strength and compensates with skill, speed, and straight up creativity.

Being a practioner of a style where it is in my best interest to have a stronger, stiffer, and even larger opponent I just approach fighting differently. The last person male or female I want to have to fight is one that is relaxed, fast, and has impecable technique. But, I would wonder if the same ideal would still apply to MMA. For I have seen much technique that focuses more on positioning, leverage, and technique. So.....
Why not?

Now if we're talking about a straight up boxing match where all you could do is punch then matching a male and female would be unfair. But, in MMA you can use so much more, kicking, BJJ, grappling, throws, elbows, knees, (I would love to see people block more though! lol) but, you see this would be a sport where a female could do more against her opponent. So, there is more of a chance that she could win.

Plus, they have so many safety rules in effect that hardly anyone gets seriously injured anymore. They stop the fights when the person stops "responding" to being punched, or has taken too many blows to the head. I really think that the sport would be safe enough to give women a fair shake in the ring.

But, please don't start spouting off how men's reaction/reflexes are better, eyesight, testosterone levels are higher, etc...etc..  These things are all relative and selective to the individual. Or that men are just designed by "nature" for combat. Yes, they tend to have more physical attributes that can make them stronger. But, I've met men my size that had the very same tiny bone structure that I do, so again this is all relative to the individual. And this "nature" for combat is something that has been taught, and trained into the minds of men since possibly the beginning of time. And trained into the minds of women that we are just no good at combat, hunting, survivial, fighting. Silly I tell you.
It's all in the mind, the desire, the will of the individual. 

But, this is a good thread. I like that folks are thinking about this. Especially if your a martial artist. This is something to seriously think about for competition and on a self defense level. Is this possible? Can it happen? Forget about the "santioning" of it all, just the ideal can it be done. Should it be done? Would this be good for the women and men alike?
Can we as a society open up and think more equally when it comes to women and men fighting in a ring and competing? Why, or why not?  What's the hang up?


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 16, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> As for women not being able to reach their peak and compete at a higher professional level with men I think that is very false. I've seen female bodybuilders that chunk weight around as much as their male counterparts of their weight class. A woman with the same money for trainers, diet, time, etc. as a man at a professional level will be able to reach the same levels of conditioning and fitness as her male counter parts.


 
Um NO I am fairly sure they do not and will not. Please feel free to show me any woman that has "thrown around" the same weights as a man in her same weight class. It simply is not true that I have ever heard of. 
I have no problem with any of your other comments, but this is simply not true. You may want it to be true, but it is not. I will be more then happy to eat my words if you can point out this Amazon that is as strong as the men in her weight class. Remember this is not a self defense situation, this is a sport fighting situation where most of the tools that a person can use to equalize a strength and or size difference are not allowed.


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## Nomad (Apr 16, 2009)

Men and women are built differently, think differently (as has been pointed out to me on _*many*_ occasions), and also fight differently.

This is not to say one is better than the other, but to not acknowledge the fact that there are differences is to close your eyes tightly against some pretty solid facts and statistics.

While I'm sure that exceptions can be found, on average male athletes will have more developed upper bodies and greater strength, while female athletes often have the advantage in terms of balance (lower center of gravity) and endurance.  Interestingly, it's been shown that when the speed is calibrated to compensate for stride length (directly corresponds to the relative lengths of the shin and thigh bone), the fastest runners in the world are women.

Men tend to be more immediately aggressive; women tend to build anger slower and hold it longer.

Still, I have no doubt that there are women who could compete on a relatively even playing field with men in MMA. 

I think what will prevent co-ed matches from happening in the near future are the psychological aspects of such a match.  As has been mentioned, if the man wins and beats the female competitor bloody, he'll be reviled by a very large portion of society (and the viewing audience); if he's the one beaten down... aside from taking a possibly fatal blow to the ego, he'll be ridiculed by the same factions.


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## teekin (Apr 16, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Ok. Look I used to fly planes and it's been proven that women can multi-task more than men, and your saying men see better? This has been disproven. I've been tested for my perifial vision and it is above average to that of a man.
> Faster twitch reflexes? I beg to differ. My reflexes best most men. My reaction time is better than most men. I've flow airplanes with men and have been better than some of my peirs, who were men.
> 
> As for women not being able to reach their peak and compete at a higher professional level with men I think that is very false. I've seen female bodybuilders that chunk weight around as much as their male counterparts of their weight class. A woman with the same money for trainers, diet, time, etc. as a man at a professional level will be able to reach the same levels of conditioning and fitness as her male counter parts.
> ...



Si Je, If I take your thigh bone, and a male thigh bone of the Exact Same Size, the male thigh bone will have a different ossification structure, it will be Heavier and harder to break. It will repair faster if broken. This is not fiction. It is basic anatomy. And yup, men have more of their brains dedicated to vision than women, their visual cortex is larger on average. This is Adaptation, (see Darwin). Not my idea, Earth's, God's, Budda, Appolemer, (the God of Plastics.)
lori


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## Si-Je (Apr 17, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> Si Je, If I take your thigh bone, and a male thigh bone of the Exact Same Size, the male thigh bone will have a different ossification structure, it will be Heavier and harder to break. It will repair faster if broken. This is not fiction. It is basic anatomy. And yup, men have more of their brains dedicated to vision than women, their visual cortex is larger on average. This is Adaptation, (see Darwin). Not my idea, Earth's, God's, Budda, Appolemer, (the God of Plastics.)
> lori


 
This may be true, but there is more to a fighter than bone density, strenth, or eyesight. (Although I know my eyesight and hearing is better than most men. I've been tested for flight twice.)
Hubbie is a personal trainer now and would totally agree with you, as I realize that much of this scientic fact is true. But, I still believe that with proper diet, training, dedication, and regimine a woman can and will perform very equally to the strength to her male counterparts in her weight class.


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## Si-Je (Apr 17, 2009)

Women in Sports, Double Standard System of Discrimination
Si-Je
04/16/2009

Abstract
I wrote this in the standard APA format so I could legally quote sources and provide some &#8220;proof&#8221; to my ideals. These things I say online are not complete products of my own mind. I read a lot. I study, and I talk to many people that are in positions of employment that have knowledge of these subjects. Yes, I do speak from my own heart and mind, but these opinions (which are always subject to change on the receipt of new &#8220;facts&#8221 are not unbiased in fact or without a bit of research. Here is some research I found, as I don&#8217;t have a lot of time to research these things for everyone on here on every single post I make (which is becoming more and more necessary, it seems) I wrote only a small paper. 

I&#8217;m going to school full-time and have a toddler to take care of at home and cannot devote huge amounts of time online proving or disproving statements when these statements made by all are equally opinion and conjecture. Why I am always called into question to prove my opinions, I&#8217;m not sure. Maybe because I have some conviction behind my ideals and maybe because I say things people don&#8217;t always want to hear.


Introduction

New studies have shown that women develop muscle much the same way as men. And as Stvalentine has stated in her article &#8220;Women&#8217;s Body Building &#8211; Women Build Muscle Just Like Men, &#8220;many times as a lot of women body builders have lifted weights equal to that of their male counterparts&#8221;. She also states that many people have the common misconception that women&#8217;s bodies are not able to sustain such rigorous training. (Stvalentine, 2008). As former member of the IFBB states in her article about the issues surrounding women in the body building circuit that many women are not considered &#8220;athletes&#8221; as their male counter parts. But, &#8220;just&#8221; a woman competing in a man&#8217;s world, excluding these ladies from the kind of sponsorship as the men are afforded. These men are able to make a living in the professional circuit with relative ease as compared to the women who do not have the same offers and frequency for competition as the men do. 

As Lisa Bavington states that &#8220;There is a prevailing attitude that female athletes must exhibit a level of sexual attractiveness that appeals to an artificial standard of femininity.&#8221; If agree that this also crosses over to all sports that women compete in whether it is Soccer, Basketball, Body Building and especially MMA. She is also concerned with the serious issues of female athletes and these issues of body image developing into &#8220;the issues of body image and eating disorders, homophobia and heterosexism, and the over-sexualization of women in sport.&#8221; (Scott-Dixon, K., 2003)

This is all I&#8217;m going to write on this aspect of the subject. There is proof out there that is completely contrary to the common beliefs that women just don&#8217;t have enough testosterone, can&#8217;t pack on the muscle, or aren&#8217;t able to lift the same weight as their male counterparts in their weight class. This is slightly off the topic, but in many ways it is the heart of the very problem of women in any sport. The views of society are so strongly biased and seeped into the double standard that strong and athletic women are just not feminine and therefore the very idea of a female fighter, bodybuilder, or even professional athlete is just &#8220;unattractive&#8221;. These views are what twist and pervert a woman&#8217;s true potential as a professional athlete, not the composition of her body.

Science proves many things and then someone comes along and proves the &#8220;facts&#8221; as false. This happens almost every day, very few things are set in stone as unwavering &#8220;law&#8221; in science. So, to use so called scientific pseudo-fact to basically hinder and place limitations on any individual is just deplorable. Not to mention not consistent with the true spirit of science, experimentation. If these ideas or &#8220;theories&#8221; are not put to the test and experimented with to prove or disprove anyone&#8217;s idea or so called &#8220;truth&#8221; of the subject then it will always remain conjecture, prejedice, and discrimination based on ignorance. Only through experimentation can the facts be revealed on any subject, and only then can any statement be made in certainty what can be done and what cannot be done. 

References:
Salvalentine, (05/07/2008), _Women&#8217;s Body Building &#8211;Women Build Muscle Just Like Men,_ Now Public Website, retrieved; 04/17/2009 http://www.nowpublic.com/health/womens-body-building-women-build-muscle-just-men
*Scott-Dixon, Krista, (06/22/2003), *_*Weighting for equality: former professional Bodybuilder Lisa Bavington says the time to let go of sexism in her sport is long overdue, *_*Herizons Magazine, retrieved; 04/16/2009 http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-4145400_ITM*


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 17, 2009)

Equal rights is great and IMO should be encouraged.

 However people within society have prenotions of what is morally sound and women engaging in combat with men for entertainment has not been accepted by the majority. Woman in combat sports such as boxing have been engaging since the 1700's even fighting men.

http://www.womenboxing.com/historic.htm

But most likey the Boxing matches were not sanctioned until the 20th century. I think society is starting to get use to women boxing,women MMA thanks to positve influences in the movie industry and good role models such as Gina Carano but as of now Women vs Men in combat sports may have to wait until society catches up with it as an acceptable sport.


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## Si-Je (Apr 17, 2009)

That is true about society not being ready for it yet. But for society to change, people have to change it.
This has always been so whether it was the abolition of slavery, women's rights to vote and work, etc. 
It's taken people like Martian Luther King Jr. to make men equal that were of different color and stop segregation, and men like Lincoln to unify a warring country. The war protesters of the Vietnam era to stop a long horrible war, the people of America to elect Barak Obama. 

For change to happen in society, people must inact that change, voice a need for it, support it, demand it, fight for it. It doesn't have to be a major majority of the people of a society to instill change. The American Revolution was fought by a minority of the colonists at that time. Many didn't want to seperate from England. In a few can inspire enough people in society to see the need for change then change can happen.

If no one does anyting and everyone just waits around for everyone else to "evolve" or change their thinking, nothing will change.


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## FearlessFreep (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm sorry if I missed this as I've been gone awhile.

I think it's a bad idea for the simple reason that women and men are biologically different so even when the weights are the same, the bodies are much different, so there is no way to get a fair fight.

Gymnastics is I think the best example of a sport that has both Men and Women compete and yet tailors the events around the body strengths of the respective genders.  Women don't do rings, which is all about upper body strength, which is not something women have much of (relatively).  Men don't do balance beam, which is all about balance and control, which is not something men have much of (relatively).  So the events cater to the strengths of the body style.  Even the shared events, like floor exercise, are judge differently between men and women.  So have a sport that both men a and women compete in, both their measurements are tailored toward the areas of excellence of their bodies and they are judged to that excellence, not to each other.  Which is much different than something like track and field were both men and women compete but they all do the same events that just happen to be segregated by gender.

MMA is not quite the same.  Quite frankly, it is a Man's game, and by that I simply mean that the rules and environment are really tailored for male bodies.  Women who do it are relatively handicapped  the same way, so it evens out.  But put a man and a women together even at the same weight and the inherent biasing will put the woman at an unfair disadvantage.  This is not to say that a good women can't beat a bad man, but an elite woman could not match an elite man at any weight (I feel).

Change the MMA rules to emphasize stamina (15-20 minute rounds?), speed (yes, in MMA speed is an advantage but not really a decisive factor), balance, control, pain tolerance, all those things that women are inherently stronger at than men and I don't think men could stand a chance against women, pound for pound, either.  

Right now though, MMA rules, implicitly, favor raw, brute strength and explosive power (all other features like speed, reach, stamina, strategy are ways to set up delivering of that power) and biology favors men over women in that category.  So even two fighters of the same weight will not be an even match on most days


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 17, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Here is some research I found.


 
I am not sure if you put that up based on my post in response to you, but I have to tell you that there is no research in that article you listed. I'ts a statement with no proof to back it up. I am not asking for any extended study, I simply want 1 example of a woman in a professional body building/powerlifting type environment of competition that puts up the same weight numbers as their male counterparts in the same weight class. I have to say I honestly believe the comments you are making about this is made up, flat out wrong, and only being used to push a point that does not exist. No intent to hurt feelings here, this is just false information, I have had a fairly large amount off interest in the area of powerlifting, and have never ever come across anything similar to what the claims you are making suggest.


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## jarrod (Apr 17, 2009)

i guess if you feel really strongly about it, you can be the first woman to do it!  

good opportunity if you are passionate about it.  there aren't a lot of trails left to blaze these days.

jf


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## Andrew Green (Apr 17, 2009)

http://www.ontariopowerlifting.org/Records/records_powerlifting.htm

52 kgs
Women Open Total 360
Men Open Total 492.5

75 Kgs
Women Open Total 410
Men Open Total 722.5


Strength differences between men and women are there, it's a uneven playing field in weight lifting.
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2009)

Why on earth would women want to fight men and vice versa.? I and a few others are working our butts off trying to get women's MMA taken seriously as a sport, mens MMA isn't taken seriously yet everywhere so both mens and womens MMA has still a long way to go. In TMA comps men don't fight women, in athletics they don't compete against each other and no one things it's weird. The only sport I know of where men and women compete equally is equine sports.
I would much rather we concentrated on getting MMA the sport recognised as a proper sport not just as an alternative to WWE!
The MMA rules don't favour men at all, they don't favour anyone in particular which is right and proper. I disagree thats it's a mens sport, it's a fighter's sport. 
I would be really upset if some woman ruins all the work we have been doing for MMA (the sport  and as such genderless) by making a pointless fool of themselves against a male fighter. It would make us a laughing stock. We're not better, we're not worse, we're different.


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## Si-Je (Apr 21, 2009)

Okay. "Women are Handicaped?" When they get in the ring together and pound it out and that makes it "even". What I'm trying to do is break through 2,000 years of gender role ideals, I guess.

If you don't think that article I quoted has any basis in fact, then take it up with the female professional bodybuilder that wrote it. And the other professional female bodybuilder that took the interview discussing the issues behind the fact that the sport is straight up biased.

Okay, gymnastics cater to the body type of the male or female. So does body building and MMA, etc. Is this right, or accurate? That is the question. But when in a fight, anything can happen, there are more factors involved than a coregraphed gymnastics session or bodybuilding competition. In body building women actually get graded against building "too much muscle bulk" because it's not "femine" to the female form. Does this mean a woman cannot build muscle mass? no. Just that the judges and "fans" don't want to see that.

Why would men and women want to fight eachother in the ring? How can you get women's MMA to be taken more seriously as a sport? I imagine the same hard way that you would with basketball, baseball, or anyother sport. Co-Ed competition. Women fighting women will never be taken seriously as a sport like the men's competition. Women playing basketball against women will never be taken seriously as much as men's basketball utill they compete together. When the teams are co-ed.

I've seen men make fun of women's basketball, soccer (or football), etc.., because they compete against eachother. It always comes down to the fact that a female athelete is just not as good as a man.  I disagree.
I've known women that can out perform most men even professional athelete men and get no credit for it. 

It's the way people think about gender roles, the hang-ups people have with what a man or a woman "should" be. 
a man that attacks a woman and she has to defend herself already has the concept in her mind that she cannot do it because he is a man. His strenghth is better, etc..., defeating oneself in the mind. Same mind game in the ring, or on the court.

Okay, so alot of men won't want to fight and punch a woman in the ring. I respect that, but there are plenty that would, so lets try it out. See what happens.  What if the woman won? What would be the "outcry" then.  What if she lost? Would people just hate the man? That's a double standard and is wrong. Women would win and lose, just like men do when they fight eachother, just like women do when they fight other women. 

To say it isn't safe? These women beat eachother up more visciously than most men I've seen in the ring. If a man beat a woman in the ring and "hurt" her (oh, the poor fighter, she got hurt. That happens, and they know that. To try to say it isn't safe is an insult to the female fighter.) Then they stop the fight, a winner is declared and you go on.
The same when men fight men and women fight women. Same same in any type of competition.

By the way. I did try to get some statictis from the Arnold Classic website, but I don't understand the point system. It's different for men and women, and they don't seem to list what the top male lifts and the top female. Like I said, don't have alot of time these days. Got a toddler at home all day and going to school fulltime. I did a quick research paper in like a couple of hours. I wanted to research more, and spend more time on the paper, but I just don't have that kind of time. Married, school, kiddo at home, busy, busy housewife. lol!
But,... I've seen women on T.V. when they do these competitions, and I have SEEN them do the very same if not one or two pounds under what men their same weight did. Don't have hardcopy of the stats, and can't find it online right now. If I had more time, I imagine I'd find it.

Talked to personal trainer hubbie, and he confirmed that women have lifted the same as men in their weight and told me where to go to find it. forgot. He's not at home much, working 2 jobs now. 

But, regardless, what I was trying to do is see what people really think of this type of competition. MMA is extreme situation for co-ed competition, but what about other sports? Is it the same? Does MMA give a fighter enough versatility to compete against the opposite sex? Just ideas ya'll. Just checking out what "society" thinks about it.

Do you know when I was a girl I was a "weirdo" "butch" girl because I was a tomboy? Society thought it was stupid and weird (especially in Texas lol!) that I loved sports, martial arts, skateboarding? And, I did as a kiddo up into my teens and early twentys compete at a level with my male peers equally if not better? So, I could play Ball, and run, do martial arts well, and skateboard as good as any duder that I ran with, so that was weird. And "special", and different. 
God! we're supposed to be living in the twenith century! (or when I was a kid lol!) now the 21st?! And now it's okay for girls to do sports, just not as good as a dude? 
Bunk I tell you. Just bunk! lol! When I was a kid girls weren't even supposed to be able to hit a baseball and run around some stupid plates and play baseball, now it's okay, as long as it's in a "girl league". 
Come on. 
Time to evolve to the next step.
At least give it a shot. Can surfer chicks compete with the dudes out in the ocean? Is there some "factor" keeping a woman from surfing as good as a man on the unpredictable ocean? They ride the same waves on the same day! What's the difference?

Yeah, a woman will fight differently than a man, but will that difference make her lose? Are we afraid of women losing and getting hurt or are we afraid to see a woman win, and defeat a man? Whether it's MMA, baseball, basketball, surfing, skating, running, swimming, whatever sport, is the female athalete THAT inadequite in comparision to a man? Does MMA depend THAT much on strength? Does martial arts? (although I have a hard time comparing MMA to martial arts. sorry, just see it as depending too much on strength to be MA. No insult intended. Just see them as very different.) But, MMA is still a "sport" like anyother.

I just think that women in this sport of MMA work just as hard as the men if not harder and deserve to be seen as equal. If they need to fight co-ed to do it, then that might be the only way. Equality has never come easy for anyone seeking it.


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## Si-Je (Apr 21, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I would be really upset if some woman ruins all the work we have been doing for MMA (the sport and as such genderless) by making a pointless fool of themselves against a male fighter. It would make us a laughing stock. We're not better, we're not worse, we're different.


 
I love ya Tez, but would a woman be a "laughing stock" for fighting and losing to a man? I would think at least a hero for having the guts to do it. Competition. Win or Lose, you DID IT. You can't win if you don't try. 
To fail is to try, but to win is to try and do it. Someone has to try to win.  If you don't try then you already lose.

If I saw a woman in the ring and fight and lose, then she would have honor in my heart forever. Just for doing it and getting in there. The biggest step.
"one small step for woman, one large step for womankind." lol! (sorry I'm kinda corney, and a bit of a silly heart, some call it foolheardy.)

But seriously. Are we as females more concerned about "losing face" than actually competing to be equal? That's a MAN's trait. Come on, girl. Afraid to be embarressed? Doesn't every fighter have that fear everytime they go in the ring? "what if I lose? What will people think?" 

Okay, I'm starting to get where this is all going, and why.
When I used to skateboard, I'd bust my *** and fall. But, I'd get back up with the dudes, take the "hit". (which is worse than getting punched, dude. concrete sucks!) and skate on. It happens, you fall, get up and do it again and again and again. male or female. 

If I was concerned about representing the entire female part of the species when skating I'd fall more. Nervous. That's alot of pressure. But, it was there anyway. I ignored it and skated on. You do it because you love it. screw everyone else. But, your just as good as the dudes. So recognize!
Don't chicken out because your afraid to "embarres" people. It's an individual thing. Every fighters different whether male or female. 

I woman would make a "fool" of herself by competing with a man. You make me sad, dudeit. I just don't see it that way.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 21, 2009)

are you really serious?
besides being completely wrong on the data for weightlifting in weight classes between a man and a woman....here are the olympic records... 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting
huge difference, it takes a woman over 75KG to beat a man of 56KG in total lift. Please feel free to even look up the pictures and see the difference in body types and size between the weight lifters.
Please also feel free to go to any powerlifting, weightlifting records site, track and field, anything that records physical records between men and women and then please come back here and show me one that is even in the ball park. Those records are the absolute best women in their prospective sports as well, the drop off from the top to the tenth to the hundredth is huge in women, not nearly as much in men. The best Athletic Women in the world, are performing about equal to the best high school age men in the world.
If you can't accept that then go here.
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/

The statistics are not hard to find. You just have to want to find them.
I don't know what you are trying to push with your denial of the facts. Noone said Women are dumber then men, less deserving then men in any way shape or form. Its simply a fact that women are not able to match up athletically with men, MMA is not as much about strategy and knowledge as it is about athleticism. I have seen plenty of men that are more well rounded martial artists lose to another man because that man was a much better athlete. 

Absurd example incoming.....
I have no interest in getting in the cage with a 200 pound chimpanzee even if my ability and knowledge of all ranges of fighting are much more superior, the fact is I will probably end up with my lips, ears, and gentlemanly parts removed. The animal simply is built different then me, and while I may be able to overcome it, it is not likely.
sure its overkill, and not the same, but I think it makes my point a little bit.

If you are trying to argue that men and women are equal, or should be respected equally, then you wont get any argument from me. If you are trying to argue that womena nd men in sports should make the same, then I have to say sorry, the men in most sports, with an exception of a few draw much larger audiences, and draw much more money. I have no problem with a woman in sports making more then a man, I just don't want to have be told I have to watch a womans sport that does not interest me. I watch womens MMA, I enjoy great technique. I don't watch womens basketball, its slow, average and I see more fun stuff in the pick up games down by the beach. I want to be entertained when I watch a sport regardless of gender. Mens sports seem to have bigger, faster, almost unreal athletes doing things that seem almost unreal. Thats what I like to watch.


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## AoCAdam (Apr 21, 2009)

No way. That would never be sanctioned. I am all for women fighting each other, but guys vs girls is a totally different ballgame even if they happen to be at the same weight.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Apr 21, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> I'm down! Especially if I can roll with Gina Carano! She can put me in a triangle choke any time....heh.


Heck that was the first thing I thought of when I read the title!


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## Si-Je (Apr 22, 2009)

Is weightlifting going to make the most difference in the ring?
Alright, so women's sports don't entertain you. Each to their own. 
An Athlete is an athlete. Lucky, your the posterchild for what I was really expecting to get on this topic. And it's not stuff I haven't heard before. 

I checked out your wikipedia site, and the track and field website. Neat. 
So a woman comes in on the 100 meter .96 seconds after the best guy in the same event. I guess that's pretty huge in relation to sprints.
And the weight lifting world records are about 30-45kg more weight on the men as the womens world olympic records. Neat. Liked the sites.

I've still seen a woman lift as much as a guy her size. Maybe it was a fluke, whatever. Don't care.
Women in MMA fighting men in the ring, or at least in the same organizations, that is the question. UFC WEC, etc. You don't like to watch female athletes, I get it. Your totally not alone in that preference. Thanks for the very predictable feedback. But a fight is a different matter than a weightlifting competition, or track and field. There are more factors that could determine the outcome. More versitility. 
But, I guess if it's a sport that completely relys on strength, then us poor women are just screwed. Right? I thought MMA was supposed to be more about technique and being a well rounded fighter. That "weaker" men can defeat a guy their weight class using technique, BJJ, grappling, muy tai, and a whole "arsenol" of technique. Are we hung up on strength as the winning deciding factor of a MMA fight?

Okay, I guess so. Then, yes, women will lose to a man if she has to depend soley on strength.  I seemed to have misunderstood what MMA was all about and what it focuses on.


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## MJS (Apr 22, 2009)

If, and this is a big IF, it were to happen, there would have to be strict weight classes.  Imagine no weight class, and putting a female fighter up against someone the size of Brock Lesnar?  

As I said, I highly doubt that it'll ever happen, most likely for the reasons mentioned already....however, I would love to see a womens division.  I remember some of the old UFCs when they had their Superfights.  It was 1 highlight match.  Royce and Ken did one.  I think there may have been others.  It could be something like that, to at least get a feel from the public, as to how it would go over.

As far as women defending themselves against men in the real world....well, lets not forget that that is who they will be defending themselves against...men.  Not likely a woman is going to rape another woman.  In any case, a real life situation is very different from a cage match, so yes, with the right training and mindset, I'm sure there are women out there that are pleanty capable of defending themselves against a male attacker.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 22, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Is weightlifting going to make the most difference in the ring?
> Alright, so women's sports don't entertain you. Each to their own.
> An Athlete is an athlete. Lucky, your the posterchild for what I was really expecting to get on this topic. And it's not stuff I haven't heard before.
> 
> ...


 
Ok so this will be my last response unless something new comes up, but apparantly you are looking for people to agree with you regardless of facts. Thats just not going to happen.

Second I never said I don't watch female athletes of women professional sports. Also I never said a woman could not lift as much as a man. What I am saying is at the heights of the professional athlete, women simply are overpowered by men in every single aspect. Even if technique and knowledge are superior the difference in athleticism(strength, speed, agility, dexterity, etc) all around is too much to make up and in a combat sport especially the danger is too high. You can disagree all you want, but you are not using any logic in disagreeing, just passion, and thats fine, but its not correct.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2009)

I know the female fighters in this country and a couple of them know a few American female fighters and we are all of the opinion that MMA female fighters are serious athletes who have absolutely no need to fight men to be taken seriously. None of us regard female MMA fighters as unequal to men, the men here also regard female fighters as being equal. You can equate the way people here look at female fighters as a 'weight' group, no one looks down on the bantam or featherweights because they aren't middleweights, no one sneers at the middleweights for not being heavyweights, with women it's exactly the same, they have thier classes just the same as the men have theirs. You don't have featherweights fighting heavyweights because neither group has anything to prove by doing that. Women have nothing to prove by fighting men. *The whole point of MMA competition is to fight and win against someone of equal* *weight and strength as yourself, that's the beauty and fun of MMA*. If you want to prove women can fight men go somewhere else. 
I recently refereed male professional bouts in the cage, I was the referee not male or female, if the fighters had not obeyed me they knew I'd deal with them, no one, fighters or crowd, doubted that. It wasn't a problem.

I'm sure there's big strong heavy women who can outlift and out fight a small chap but wheres the point in a bigger stronger *person* fighting a smaller *person*, we probably all have people in our clubs or schools who can prove women can fight some of the men, some of the men will beat everyone, some won't beat anyone. On MT, it's preaching to the converted saying that women can fight, of course they can. The women I know in MMA as well as most of the men feel they have nothing to prove about fighting, they know they can fight, what they like is the competition of going head to head with an equal opponent... same fight experiences, same weight and same strength, thats the excitement of the game.

Why would a woman want to fight a man or vice versa, there's simply no fun in that and MMA basically is down to enjoyment of the competition, fun and pitting yourself against yourself as much as anything. Can I outhink my opponent, can I outmanouvre them? can I outsmart them, keep my nerve? Thats the fun. To have male v female fights would take away the fun element and become some sort of power struggle and yes I'll repeat it would be embarrassing to the sport to have mismatches, promoters work hard, at least we do, to make good equal matches not farces.

Si-Je what you want isn't to be found in MMA, you want to prove women can take on men, we and MMAers want good clean competitions. We have different agendas and I will always go with what is best for my sport and ultimately women fighters and I'm afraid men v female matches aren't it.


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## jarrod (Apr 22, 2009)

not sure if you ignored my post above or if you might have just missed it.  you're a woman who practices a style that works even better if the opponent is larger & stronger, so go set up an mma fight with a man.  i know a couple of promoters, if you can't set it up in texas i could help you do it around here, if you don't mind traveling to kansas or missouri.  it's a really good opportunity for you; you could prove the effectiveness of WC in the cage, obliterate gender discrimination in MMA, & earn a little money to boot.  all good things, imo.

jf


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## Si-Je (Apr 22, 2009)

Okay, it was a question and an ideal. Many are not going to agree to even try it, or have already decided it is unreasonable or unattractive to have women and men competing in MMA or even anyother type of sport.

As for Luckyboxer, I did get a little irritated about your comments that female athletes shouldn't be paid as much as men and a few other of your views. I tell you what. I used to work for TSA security in the Airport here a couple of years ago. And since women can't do the physical "work" of a man they shouldn't be paid as much because their events aren't as popular or "fun" to watch. 
So with that mindset, since I was placed with a full crew of almost nothing but men chunking checked in baggage to go under the plane then I shouldn't have been paid as much as the men because I can't carry as much weight as them in regards to luggage?
Mind you the minimum weight on this luggage was 40-50lbs., and the majority of it was 50-125lbs. I threw this stuff around all day long, sometimes 12 hour shifts. I "deadlifted" 80lb cumbersome bags from the floor to my chest hight all day long. Must have lifted 50-200 bags a day!  (golf bags are totally the worst! have a whole new respect for caddys! lol)
So, since I was doing a man's job so to speak and I'll tell you another thing, those men working with me were twice my size and very often I lifted the same amount of weight if not more often than they did.
So, since I was doing the job of a "man" as well as a man or better and since it's harder for me to do it, then I should get MORE pay.  Right?  Or they should pay me less because my female form just isn't equipped to handle the workload of a man?
Things that make you go, Hummm?

Great comment MJS on haveing professional women's divisions in the big organizations. I would love to see that too.  

I just thought it was an idea to get more fights for women that want to get into MMA, build a fight resume, and that it would make things interesting.  I thought things would be more fair between men and women if they were the same size/weight, but have been proven wrong.
I've been thinking about this for the past couple of months and have been debating back and forth in my head on it so I thought I'd just throw it out there, for whatever its worth.

If you don't think MMA would be a good venue for co-ed competition, then maybe another? Point fighting/sparring in TKD tournaments are about as "safe" as you can get. Would it be acceptable there? Well, from the responses I'm getting probably not. Not even in regular athletics.

As for that statement about professional female athletes only being as good as a male in highschool, that I found to be pretty condesending, and untrue. When I was IN high school I performed equally if not better than my guy friends in most sports. Had no problem playing "mens" baseball (I hate softballs their heavier making it harder to hit the ball farther. I just think that's typical *********** "girling down" a sport) 
And had no problem striking out almost every guy we played with, even the guys on the baseball team. Had no problem hitting the ball from these guys pitches and running the bases for home runs or double or tripples. 

So, no way. Professional female athletes being comparable in equality to a high school male. And I'm teeny, always have been. Didn't stop me from grinding and pulling off popshove-its all day on a skateboard with the guys. Didn't "handycap" me from being able to dribble that soccerball past almost every guy we played with (although soccer isn't as popular down here and folks aren't really good. But neither am I, so we're even there) 

Didn't stop me from wrestling with some of the guys on the wrestling team (then I took JJJ and used that against them as well as some "street" stuff) and holding my own pretty good against a kid my age and size. (didn't bother to weigh him.lol!) Hey, I never got pinned, and they really wanted to do that really, really bad. 

The list goes on in my "highschool" athletic abilities and comparable "equality" to the ability of a boy my age.
Now when men mature, that's a totally different story. But, don't compare grown professional athlete women to a teenage boy. Seriously condesending.

If folks aren't ready for the idea, that's what I really figured. But, I was still curious, and curious to find out what a MMA fighter really depends on in the ring, and this was the fastest way to find out. Strength.  
Great thread, and it's been awesome chatting with you all on this idea.  Thanks for your input everyone.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 22, 2009)

I have been reading through this and I got to tell you I think the whole topic is a bit whacky. You are not going to get co-ed in the ring and I truly do not believe it is discrimination, sexism or any other topic to cause great debate, arguing and strife, it is just what is. As already mentioned there are a multitude of other sports that are not coed and those would need to go coed first. Also what is wrong with a woman being taken seriously as a martial artists, all on her own, in competition with other woman and not having to be compared to a man or base her legitimacy on that of a man.

But with that said I got to tell you after over 30 years of MA I would not climb in the ring with this woman and I seriously outweigh her. And it has nothing to do with any sort of macho attitude, I gained an awful lot of respect for Aikido, that I did not have prior, from a woman about half my size that was part of a sparing group I was in that slammed me to the floor. And I have to tell you I felt about it at the time the same way I do now&#8230; DAMN!!! That was cool. Not climbing into the ring with the woman the link goes to has a heck of a lot more to do with self-preservation.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 22, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> As for Luckyboxer, I did get a little irritated about your comments that female athletes shouldn't be paid as much as men and a few other of your views. I tell you what. I used to work for TSA security in the Airport here a couple of years ago. And since women can't do the physical "work" of a man they shouldn't be paid as much because their events aren't as popular or "fun" to watch.
> So with that mindset, since I was placed with a full crew of almost nothing but men chunking checked in baggage to go under the plane then I shouldn't have been paid as much as the men because I can't carry as much weight as them in regards to luggage?
> Mind you the minimum weight on this luggage was 40-50lbs., and the majority of it was 50-125lbs. I threw this stuff around all day long, sometimes 12 hour shifts. I "deadlifted" 80lb cumbersome bags from the floor to my chest hight all day long. Must have lifted 50-200 bags a day! (golf bags are totally the worst! have a whole new respect for caddys! lol)
> So, since I was doing a man's job so to speak and I'll tell you another thing, those men working with me were twice my size and very often I lifted the same amount of weight if not more often than they did.
> ...


 
You just don't get it do you?
first off, professional women athletes do not draw as many spectators, audiences, income to their respective sports as men do, thats not me being a chauvinist, thats just a fact, and its not even close. Because of this fact there is no way that a female in the WNBA for example is going to get a 100 million dollar deal. Now, if the circumstances were reversed and the wnba was drawing more money in then the nba then I would say that they deserve to be paid more. Its simple as that. As far as your job lugging luggage, thats not a mans job, its a hard working job, and more power to you for doing it. If you are able to hang with the rest of the workers and do the same job, then you deserve the same pay. It has nothing to do with men and women. Thats ridiculous and your just trying to draw me into saying something chauvenistic. Its ridiculous.
second, as far as the top female athletes go, I compare them to the top high school athletes, and if you look at the numbers its not only a fair comparison, but in most cases the high school men are better athletes across the board. Get upset all you want, its a fact, its undeniable, no matter how much you dislike it. I have no reason to disbelieve you when you make it seem that you were the star athlete of your high school. That says nothing about the level of the men at your high school. There are thousands of high schools in the US, millions of athletes. Take the best of the best and they make it to collegiate sports, take the best of those and they make it to Pro Sports. I would bet money on almost any all american high school mens sports team against virtually any professional womens team, there is no comparison, please stop with condescending comments... I am not being a jerk here, I am stating facts that are open to all to view, please view them and show me where I am wrong.


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## Ronin74 (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm sure in quite a few MMA gyms, males and females have had sparring sessions with each other, so I'm going to assume that this whole thread is directed at males and females competing with each other on an amature or professional level.

As for my personal take, I honestly don't care. Fights are for fighters, and causes are for martyrs.

Now as for the topic, here's the conundrum I'm seeing, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

From your previous posts, it sounds like you're trying to make the statement that female fighters are just as capable as male fighters. Perhaps the perceived "strengths" and "weaknesses" will differ between genders (and definitely on an individual basis), but in essesnce, they're all fighters, and as such should be allowed to compete with each other. Again, if this isn't what you meant, please clarify.



Si-Je said:


> I love ya Tez, but would a woman be a "laughing stock" for fighting and losing to a man? I would think at least a hero for having the guts to do it. Competition. Win or Lose, you DID IT. You can't win if you don't try.
> 
> To fail is to try, but to win is to try and do it. Someone has to try to win. If you don't try then you already lose.
> 
> ...


Now it's in that statement where I'm a little lost. If females and males were to compete with each other in the ring, why would either fighter be perceived as being a "hero"? Assuming that an understanding was met that they were both equal and capable fighters, what accolade would stand to be earned from this fight? Perhaps if this was a drag-out fight that went the distance and pushed both fighters to their limits, then I could see either fighter receiving recognition. Beyond that though, what claim is there for the loser?

In regards to your statement, if the woman were to lose, but still receive an ovation for trying, then wouldn't that negate the idea that male and female fighters have some equality?

Taking gender out of the issue, if one fighter lost to another fighter, should the losing fighter be recognized as something special, or should they just chalk it up as a loss? As for the fighter who won, were they supposed to serve as a stepping-stone of some sort?


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2009)

What on earth is the point of fighting in a _competition_ if you don't have a chance of winning? 
I think what is getting mixed up here is what is the point of MMA. It's not self defence, it's not something these days you use to prove your style is better than someone elses, it is purely a competition to enable fighters as I said of equal strength and weight to compete against each other, to stretch themselves if you like. To find out what they are made of might be another description. We've gone over this in other threads mostly the SD ones, yes MMA is full contact so perhaps it's the closest some can get to actual street fighting and to be able to test themselves and some of their techniques but it remains a competition.

In horse racing, my daughters sport, you have mares and stallions competing against each other, sometimes the mares win sometimes the stallions, sometimes the geldings win. They may have female jockeys on board or males but the horses are all the same breed, thoroughbreds, they are the same size to within a couple of inches and the same strength but what they don't have is Shetland ponies, Shire horses or polo ponies all competing against them. It has to be a fair race, the other breeds can all race against their own types but you can't mix it up, it's not a competition then.

The MMA ring/cage is not the place to find out if your self defence theories and training works. It's not sexist to have separate divisions for men and women, I don't see men and women competing against each other in Judo competions or TKD in the Olympics, the only sport I have seen men and women compete equally as I said is in the equestion sports, ie showjumping where the women earn exactly the same as the men. The prize money is for the winner regardless of the sex of the rider or horse. It doesn't follow though that men and women have to compete against each other in fighting sports. I will reiterate time and time again that the sport of MMA is about competing and hopefully beating _your equal_ in strength and size, that doesn't mean strength is what you need to win in MMA at all.   to miss the ppint of MMA and then think I'm being reactionary and scared of being embarrassed is nonsense. Someone mentioned Gina Careno in another thread, there's been a lot of controversy over her fights because she's weighed in over weight in every one, why do you think people are complaining about that? It's because the fights are considered fair if both fighters weigh the same, it shows you that the point of MMA fights is to fight someone the same weight and strength as yourself. Incidentally the arguments about Gina's weight were taken very seriously by MMA fans, with people taking sides pro and against in sober arguments not sexist ones. This shows I think that most MMA fans will discuss female fighters exactly the way they discuss male ones. No one said oh it's just women, it doesn't matter. Gina, and the other female fighters, have supporters not just because they are easy on the eye but because they can also fight. the attractiveness might be the first pull in but the fans stay because the girls can fight.

You will not attract more women into the sport by matching them against men, women want what they can get in other sports, fair and equal opposition. They want to be taken seriously in their chosen sport, matching them up aginst men does nothing for either sex or the sport.

Women don't have to prove themselves all the time by comparing themselves to men, that smacks of insecurity. I am what I am and I'm damn proud of it. I'm not second class to men nor are they second class to me. Vive la difference!


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## Shotgun Buddha (Apr 23, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> If folks aren't ready for the idea, that's what I really figured. But, I was still curious, and curious to find out what a MMA fighter really depends on in the ring, and this was the fastest way to find out. Strength.
> Great thread, and it's been awesome chatting with you all on this idea. Thanks for your input everyone.


 
Si-Je, I have to ask a question here. Have you yourself trained in an MMA cub or competed in an MMA competition before?


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## Ronin74 (Apr 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You will not attract more women into the sport by matching them against men, women want what they can get in other sports, fair and equal opposition. They want to be taken seriously in their chosen sport, matching them up aginst men does nothing for either sex or the sport.
> 
> Women don't have to prove themselves all the time by comparing themselves to men, *that smacks of insecurity*. I am what I am and I'm damn proud of it. I'm not second class to men nor are they second class to me. Vive la difference!


Couldn't have said it any clearer. If anything, I see it as making men out to be an obstacle to overcome in sports, and the only time you'll ever see a mixed-gender match-up would be in pro wrestling, which many MMA promoters try to steer clear of. From as early as UFC 1 to the present, MMA has grown by leaps to earn it's place as a legitimate sport, and the last thing promoters would want is for people to see it as just like wrestling.


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2009)

Strength is not "the thing" an MMA fighter needs to win in the ring/cage.
An MMA fighter needs stamina, intelligence, good techniques, courage, patience, cunning, strategy, strength, fitness, ring/cage awareness, good corner people, a good coach, supportive team mates and an open mind.
If you want to know what MMA is or what makes a good MMA fighter ....ask.


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## AoCAdam (Apr 23, 2009)

There will never be co-ed fights in any MMA event. Look at every other sport on a professional level. There has been and will always be seperate leagues for men and women to compete against their same gender. 

I understand the argument many of you are trying to make but it will never happen. Men hitting women even if it is in a sanctioned event for public entertainment will never be allowed.


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## matt.m (Apr 24, 2009)

I had 2 judo green belts.  A man and a woman.  Both same weight, close to same height etc.  The woman would out technique the guy like nobodies business.  However, if and when she lost it is because she got out muscled.  

However when she competed against other women she destroyed them.  I have always enjoyed training with women in class settings.  Like I said before "If a woman can figure out how to win competitively then I want to learn how she did it."


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## seninoniwashi (Apr 25, 2009)

I dont mean to offend anybody but Im sure this will offend :viking1:,

When I was in high school I attempted wrestling and got a bit good at it. Well, all it took was a girl with the same attitude to ruin it. She wanted to be a guy and somehow was let into the team because she put up enough of a fuss. All the guys had a REAL hard time wrestling her because it just felt instinctively wrong. Our women arent there to choke and beat on, theyre there to protect - thats ingrained in us as humans. Women are our partners, not our enemies. The gal that joined the team won a lot of matches because the guys were nervous and couldnt put 100% toward them as they could a man. Because of this many others and myself quite and found something else to do. It was just uncomfortable.

No matter how far we come with women rights and equality which really has noting to do with this subject at all when it really comes down to it, deep down inside most guys that gap will never be traversed, no matter how hard they try.


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2009)

seninoniwashi said:


> I dont mean to offend anybody but Im sure this will offend :viking1:,
> 
> When I was in high school I attempted wrestling and got a bit good at it. Well, all it took was a girl with the same attitude to ruin it. She wanted to be a guy and somehow was let into the team because she put up enough of a fuss. All the guys had a REAL hard time wrestling her because it just felt instinctively wrong. Our women arent there to choke and beat on, theyre there to protect - thats ingrained in us as humans. Women are our partners, not our enemies. The gal that joined the team won a lot of matches because the guys were nervous and couldnt put 100% toward them as they could a man. Because of this many others and myself quite and found something else to do. It was just uncomfortable.
> 
> No matter how far we come with women rights and equality which really has noting to do with this subject at all when it really comes down to it, deep down inside most guys that gap will never be traversed, no matter how hard they try.


 

Your post is not offensive it just misses the whole point of MMA competitions, which is of equally matched competitors. 
Most martial artists have no problem sparring or grappling with women, that's not the point here.
I think actually I'm just talking to people who have no idea what MMA is and are just jumping on the male v female thing which was something I was trying to avoid myself as it clouds the issue.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 25, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think actually I'm just talking to people who have no idea what MMA is and are just jumping on the male v female thing which was something I was trying to avoid myself as it clouds the issue.


 
This is exactly the case.


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2009)

Female MMA is a sport in itself, I know no male fighter or coach that disrepects female fighters simply because they kno what it takes to get in the ring/cage. This idea that females are second class is nonsense.
Here's the rankings for international female fighters and the person who complied these says it's not complete yet as shes still waiting for results from shows. These are females who fight under professional rules, serious fighters!  



TOP 10 FIGHTERS APPEAR IN BLUE (in red UK and Eire fighters)

105lbs 
Lisa Ward 14-5-0 (FFF Flyweight Champion) 
Miku Matsumoto 19-4-0 (DEEP Champion 105lbs) 
Hisae Watanabe 19-6-0 
Satako Shinashi 29-2-2 (DEEP Champion 97lbs) 
Su Hi Ham 3-3-0 
Mai Mai 8-4-0 
Kyoko Takabayashi 8-3-0 
Saori Ishioka 7-3-0 
Yasuko Tamada 9-4-3 
Misaki Takimoto 9-10-4 
Masako Yoshida 15-14-5 
Naoko Ohmuro 8-7-3 
Ayumi &#65533;Edge&#65533; Saito 8-5-0 
Eri Kaneya 6-2-1 
Fukuko Hamada 4-3-0 
Madoka Ebihara 2-1-0 
Sachiko Yamamoto 5-3-1 
Kayo Nagayasu 7-6-2 
Maho Muranami 4-5-2 
Davina Maciel 2-1-0 
Taeko Nagamine 2-3-0 
Yasuko Mogi 4-3-0 
Yoko Yamada 5-1-0 
Yukiko Seki 4-14-0 
Diane Berry 4-0-0 (Cage Gladiators Champion) 
Mamiko Mizoguchi 2-3-1 
Lisa Newton 2-3-0 
Kazumi Kaneko 2-6-0 
Kikuyo Ishikawa 1-0-0 

115lbs 
Megumi Fuji 16-0-0 
Yuka Tsuji 21-1-0 
Michelli Tavares 7-2-0 
Lisa Higo 4-0-0 (GFight Champion, Total Combat UK Champion) 
Maiko Ossan Ohkada 12-5-0 
Angela Magana 6-3-0 (FCF Bantamweight Champion) 
Jessica Pene 5-0-0 (RMBB Champion) 
Jessica Aguilar 5-3-0 
Lynn Alvarez 4-1-0 
Nicdali Calanoc 5-2-0 (FCF Featherweight Champion) 
Alicia Gumm 2-1-0 
Michelle Watterson 5-2-0 
Thricia Poovey 7-6-0 
Van Do 3-1-0 
Mandy Stewart 2-2-0 
Hajime 3-1-0 
Wendy Rodriguez 1-0-0 
Heather Basquil 1-2-0 
Brandy Nerney 1-1-0 
Elena Reid 2-0-0 
Shawn Tamaribuchi 1-4-0 
Lacey Schuckman 2-1-0 
Angelica Chavez 2-0-0 
Valerie Coolbaugh 1-0-0 
Meenal Prasad 1-0-0 
Mike Nagano 1-2-0 
Paulina Ramirez 1-0-0 
Mariah Reed 1-1-0 
Iman Achhal 1-0-0 
Meghan Wright 1-0-0 
Tessa Simpson 1-0-0 

125lbs 
Megumi Fuji 16-0-0 
Rosi Sexton 9-1-0 (Cage Warriors Champion) 
Carina Damm 10-3-0 
Rin Nakai 5-0-0 
Aisling Daly 7-0-0 
Kanako Takashita 5-1-0 
Kinuka Sasaki 3-6-1 
Kazue Matake 3-2-0 
Windy Tomimi 12-9-0 
Emi Fujino 8-2-0 
Sally Krumdiack 5-2-0 
Sophie Bagherdai 4-1-0 
Tevi Say 3-2-1 
Nadia Van Der Vel 3-5-1 
Patti Lee 2-2-0 
Emi Tomimatsu 2-4-0 
Madoka Ebihara 3-1-0 
Akiko Naito 4-7-0 
Cindy Hales 2-1-0 
Ana Maria 2-2-0 
Michelle Ould 2-2-0 
Amanda Nunes 2-1-0 
April Cautino 1-0-0? 
Jen Babcock 3-2-0 
Crystal Harris 2-3-0 
Paula Meyers 2-0-0 
Anna Mayne 3-0-0 
Inga Sheroziya 1-0-0 
Jamie Lynn 1-3-0 
Tammie Schneider 2-6-0 
Chelsea Colarelli 2-2-0 
Anthea Morrison 1-0-0 
Shawny Young 1-0-0 
Matsumi Kasai 1-0-0 
Brandi Hainey 1-1-0 
Zoila Frausto 1-0-0 

135lbs 
Tara La Rosa 17-1-0 
Shayna Bazler 19-5-0 
Roxanne Modaferri 13-4-0 (FFF LW Champion IFC World MW Champ) 
Takayo Hashi 12-1-0 
Amanda Buckner 11-5-1 (IFC US MW Champion) 
Vanessa Porto 8-3-0 
Hitomi Akano 14-5-0 
Tonya Evinger 7-3-0 
Sara Schneider 4-2-0 
Sarah Kaufman 7-0-0 
Julie Kedzie 8-8-0 
Ginelle Marquez-Lee 8-7-1 
Molly Helsel 7-7-1 
Adrianna Jenkins 11-2-0 
Tama Chan 16-14-0 
Liz Posenor 5-3-1 
Debi Purcell 4-2-0 
Jennifer Tate 5-1-0 
Kaitlin Young 4-2-0 (Hook n Shoot Champion) 
Alexis Davis 6-1-0 
Hari 5-7-0 
Miesha Tate 5-1-0 
Jan Finney 4-6-0 
Julia Berezikova 3-3-0 
Kellyn Huehn 1-4-0 
Majanka Lathouwers 3-2-0 
Revelina Berto 3-0-0 
Jessica Bednark 3-2-0 
Sybil Starr 1-1-0 
Angela Hayes 1-5-0 
Kate Alendal 3-3-0 
Melanie Lacroix 3-1-0 
Sarah Wilson 3-0-0 
Chevelle Hallback 1-1-0 
Liz Carriero 3-4-0 
Melissa Vasquez 4-6-0 
Kinuka Sasaki 2-6-0 
Dina Van Den Hooven 2-1-0 
Amanda Bice 2-1-0 
Cat Albert 2-0-0 
Valerie LeTourneau 2-2-0 
Angela Samaro 1-1-0 
Ashley Sanchez 1-2-0 
Myriem El Banouti 2-1-0 
Kim Rose 1-0-0 
Kate Roy 1-1-0 
Suzi Smith 1-2-0 
Shizuka Sugiyama 2-0-0 
Shiho 1-1-0 
Kim Couture 1-1-0 
Mitzi Marry 1-0-0 
Philoman Zeltz 1-0-0 

145lbs 
Gina Carano 7-0-0 
Kelly Kobald 15-3-1 
Christian Cyborg 6-0-0 
Elaina Maxwell 2-3-0 
Megumi Yabushita 14-15-0 
Karen Williams 3-0-0 
Christine Taetsch 3-2-0 
Emily Thompson 3-0-0 
Michelle Maher 1-2-0 
Avery Vilche 1-1-0 
Tonya Perry 1-1-0 
Margaux La Trobe 1-0-0 
Tamara Parks 1-1-0 
Gina Mazany 2-0-0 
Megan Williams 1-0-0 

155lbs 
Erin Toughill 9-2-1 
Cindy Dandois 1-0-0 
Marloes Coenen 16-3-0 
Nicole Maldonado 1-1-0 
Michelle Farrow 6-2-0 
Magdalena Jarecka 2-2-0 
Melissa Sherwood 2-0-0 (IFC World LHW Champion) 
Shawn Young 1-0-0 (Warriors Challenge LHW Champion) 
Sarah Renaud 1-2-0 
Hannah Doak 1-2-0 

165lbs 
Yoko Takahashi 13-10-0 
Jen Case 4-1-0 (FFF Middleweight Champion) 
Atsuko Emoto 2-2-0 
Taja Luthje 1-0-0 
Danielle West 1-2-0 

185lbs 
Michiko Takeda 3-3-1 

+185lbs 
Lana Stefanac 6-0-0 (FFF Heavyweight Champion) 
Hiroko 6-1-0 
Mayumi Aoki 2-6-0


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## teekin (Apr 25, 2009)

matt.m said:


> *I had 2 judo green belts.  A man and a woman.  Both same weight, close to same height etc.  The woman would out technique the guy like nobodies business.  However, if and when she lost it is because she got out muscled.
> 
> However when she competed against other women she destroyed them.*   I have always enjoyed training with women in class settings.  Like I said before "If a woman can figure out how to win competitively then I want to learn how she did it."



Happened to me all the time except I was outweighed all the time. At some point technique won't save you, strength and power matter. The better the technique the the more you nullify the brute strength difference. 
lori


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## Ronin74 (Apr 25, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Female MMA is a sport in itself, I know no male fighter or coach that disrepects female fighters simply because they kno what it takes to get in the ring/cage. This idea that females are second class is nonsense.
> Here's the rankings for international female fighters and the person who complied these says it's not complete yet as shes still waiting for results from shows. These are females who fight under professional rules, serious fighters!


Thanks for posting these. What site did you get this from?


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> Thanks for posting these. What site did you get this from?


 

www.fightergirls.com. Debi Purcell's site, it's for serious female fighters, MMA, kickboxing, boxing etc. In the UK the main MMA forum Cagewarriors has a womens section too but thats a forum not for the fainthearted male or female lol!
The point is that female fighters are taken seriously by _those who count_, fighters, coaches, promoters and most fans. There's no need to court adverse publicity by trying to fight like men. Female MMA may have less fighters than male MMA but we aren't to be discounted because of that.


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2009)

Something else I thought people might find interesting, it's Rosi Sexton's blog. She's the one ranked no2 in the 125lbs category, she beat Debi Purcell recently.
http://rosisexton.wordpress.com/


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## Ronin74 (Apr 26, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> www.fightergirls.com. Debi Purcell's site, it's for serious female fighters, MMA, kickboxing, boxing etc. In the UK the main MMA forum Cagewarriors has a womens section too but thats a forum not for the fainthearted male or female lol!
> The point is that female fighters are taken seriously by _those who count_, fighters, coaches, promoters and most fans. There's no need to court adverse publicity by trying to fight like men. Female MMA may have less fighters than male MMA but we aren't to be discounted because of that.


Awesome. I'll make sure to bookmark that page. To be honest, I'm not too wild about how Sherdog's site works with the rankings (especially if I'm trying to look up ANY fighter through their mobile site.)


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## seninoniwashi (Apr 26, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think actually I'm just talking to people who have no idea what MMA is and are just jumping on the male v female thing which was something I was trying to avoid myself as it clouds the issue.


 
It's an argument that should be expected. To most I believe it's the underlining root of the debate.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> Awesome. I'll make sure to bookmark that page. To be honest, I'm not too wild about how Sherdog's site works with the rankings (especially if I'm trying to look up ANY fighter through their mobile site.)


 

We tend not to use Sherdog here, it's very biased for one thing against the British fighters. We use a different one. it has international rankings too.
http://www.mmauniverse.com/fighterarchivesection.html


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## Hudson69 (Apr 27, 2009)

In this case I think that if a woman wants to fight and she can meet a weight class then more power to her.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> In this case I think that if a woman wants to fight and she can meet a weight class then more power to her.


 
Why? and why should we as serious promoters trying to run good well run shows where matches are fair and equal allow a fight like that to happen?


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 27, 2009)

Regardless of whether it would be fair or not within the same weight class, It would hurt the sport being taken serious imo. The only reason it would be done is to make it a freak show, like some of the K1 fights. I.e. sometimes, K1 fights are really about pitting great fighters against each other, but other times it's just to draw in as much money as possible (choy, akebono).

MMA is _very _slowly gaining ground here in Belgium, though it hasn't made tv or news yet. Something like this would give the sport a short notoriety, and then put the whole playing field back to square one, and additionally give the male fighter a bad rep as wife beaters.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 27, 2009)

As far as training goes, I think it benefits both people. As for fighting, I don't see it. For the physical differences that Carol mentioned a few pages ago.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2009)

You don't have mixed gender fights in TMA so why MMA? Yes we all train together, for women training with men who are bigger and stronger than them is ideal but I don't get what the fuss about having women v men in MMA is. I don't believe there's any competitive MA that has mixed gender bouts, I may be wrong but I don't think I've ever heard of any? 
MMA is for enjoyment as much as anything for most fighters, only a top few are able to have it as their 'profession' so why should we make it impossible for women to get fights which is what will happen if we insist on male v female bouts. Both sexes will refuse I guarantee you, it will an outsider with little understanding of our sport that puts a bout on and outsiders who fight.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 28, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> But with that said I got to tell you after over 30 years of MA I would not climb in the ring with this woman and I seriously outweigh her. And it has nothing to do with any sort of macho attitude, I gained an awful lot of respect for Aikido, that I did not have prior, from a woman about half my size that was part of a sparing group I was in that slammed me to the floor. And I have to tell you I felt about it at the time the same way I do now&#8230; DAMN!!! That was cool. Not climbing into the ring with the woman the link goes to has a heck of a lot more to do with self-preservation.




Wow! I think I'm in love, she is amazing! :fanboy:


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## Tensei85 (Jun 28, 2009)

By the way not trying to bring up an old thread, just had to comment on
Satoko Shinashi ; )


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## Marginal (Jun 28, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> And if the woman wants to, and volenteers to. Why not?
> Don't you guys like "underdogs"? lol


Mismatches aren't entertaining.


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