# Sticky Hands



## bujuts (Feb 2, 2006)

Greetings, all.

In what capacity does kenpo to your understanding employ the principles of Sticky Hands aka Chi Sau, if at all?  How is this introduced to your students, and at what stage in the learning process? Through what construct, set of techniques, or base group of movements within the kenpo system serve as a basis of integration of S.H. with movements already learned?  To what extent is Chi Sau imbedded into the kenpo system as you understand it - is it deeply ingrained or nothing more than a peripheral excercise?  Do you consider Sticky Hands an advanced topic for practical application?  Are there any principle differences from other systems' Chi Sau that you have observed?

Learning of the kenpo community on question at a time, I thank you.  I look forward to any and all responses.

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Rick Wade (Feb 2, 2006)

Brother Steve, 
    What's Up

This is Rick English  I was just about to give you a typical UKF answer and then I looked at the profile.  I will see you in March I am so looking forward to it.  I will be bringing a guest in to the seminar.  

Aloha and Mahalo 

Your Brother 

Rick English


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## bujuts (Feb 2, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Brother Steve,
> 
> This is Rick English I was just about to give you a typical UKF answer and then I looked at the profile. I will see you in March I am so looking forward to it. I will be bringing a guest in to the seminar.
> 
> ...


 
Mr. English, good morning. Hope all is well for you and yours. I look forward to you all arriving and partaking in the seminar. I'm pumped, my students are pumped, and we've got all of the big players from the UKF showing up to support it. It should be a grand time. Don't forget about our get together Friday night. Shoot your phone number to my email, bujuts@cox.net. I'll fill you in.

Cheers,

SB


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## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Greetings, all.
> 
> In what capacity does kenpo to your understanding employ the principles of Sticky Hands aka Chi Sau, if at all? How is this introduced to your students, and at what stage in the learning process? Through what construct, set of techniques, or base group of movements within the kenpo system serve as a basis of integration of S.H. with movements already learned? To what extent is Chi Sau imbedded into the kenpo system as you understand it - is it deeply ingrained or nothing more than a peripheral excercise? Do you consider Sticky Hands an advanced topic for practical application? Are there any principle differences from other systems' Chi Sau that you have observed?
> 
> ...


 
Since you are a Kenpo practitioner, perhaps you could start by giving your thoughts on this topic.


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## bujuts (Feb 2, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Since you are a Kenpo practitioner, perhaps you could start by giving your thoughts on this topic.


 
Greetings, I'd love to enter into a discussion on this, make no mistake. But I hesitate only because our use of Chi Sau is predicated on a construct within the kenpo system we call "12 Points". To adequately describe our use of Sticky Hands, I'd have to explain 12 Points, and this is _far _from easy using the written word.

As a short explanation, though, 12 Points forms the cohesive matrix from which all of our actions of the upper body go to, through, and from. In the same fashion the neutral bow is the common denominator underlying all of our stance transitions, 12 Points is the commonality for above the waist motion. It ties the system together. Again, though, an suitable explanation is beyond my written skills and allotted internet time. Suffice it to say Chi Sau, as we work it, is founded on correct use of 12 Points.

Allow me some time, and I may be able to formulate some descriptions of our Chi Sau to atleast highlight a few of the principles based on my own very limited understanding.

Thanks for the reply, good day to you and yours.  

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Rick Wade (Feb 2, 2006)

It is my personal belief the sticky hands one and two are great exercises in the expression of variable expansion (especially sticky hands 2) and innovative spontaneity.  The reason I say innovative spontaneity is because it doesnt matter what leaf you are on you can pretty much do the leafs out of order or jump between set 1 and 2 and totally dominate your enemy.  It is one of the truest exercise (in American Kenpo) that I have seen of free flow and sensitivity.  Sticky hands in the UKF is not like the sticky hands in CK it is much different with the commonality of the fact that you can do it blind folder and the action of your opponent can be felt and dealt with through sensitivity.

V/R

Rick


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## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2006)

Fair enough.  If you figure out a way to describe it in 10,000 words or less, I'm sure we would all be eager to read about it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





My own understanding of Chi Sao comes from my Wing Chun training.  I know that other systems have their own version of Chi Sao, and that they differ in approach but the idea for the training is the same.

In my Kenpo (Tracy) training, I did not learn anything that I understood to be Chi Sao.  I don't recall it ever being discussed in the kenpo context, nor could I point to exercises we did that seem similar to Wing Chun's chi sao, at least in concept.

Well, wait a minute. As I think about it, I do remember some drills that may have been similar, but not as free form as Wing Chun's chi sao can be.  This was some 20 or so years ago, so my memory of this is a bit foggy.  Haven't trained with other kenpo people in a long time.  I don't think I could describe any principles or approach to the drills.  There was a way that we were developing a spontaneous reaction into our self defense techniques, but what the setup was, I don't remember.  This was different from drilling techniques alone.

My instructor had been taking some seminars with Dan Inosanto and his people, so this might have been a drill he learned from them.  

that's about all I got for ya, I'm afraid.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> It is my personal belief the sticky hands one and two are great exercises in the expression of variable expansion (especially sticky hands 2) and innovative spontaneity.


 
Could you describe Sticky Hands One and Two?


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## Rick Wade (Feb 2, 2006)

Let me echo Mr. Brown in that it is very in depth considering I have just joined the UKF in the past year.  However here is my best shot.

Sticky hands 1 and 2 are exercise in Physical Body Control Manipulation.

Sticky hands 1 utilizing 12 points of consideration as punches are thrown at you, you control his width height and depth by working targets on the outside of your enemy's outer rim with the exception of the fourth leaf.  In the fourth leaf the targets are all inside of the your enemy's outer rim 

Where as sticky hands 2 works the inside of your opponents outer rim much quicker.

This isnt sticky hands in the traditional sense that your opponent ends up beating himself up and looking silly.  We defiantly use blocks and strikes but we never fully release our enemy and we defiantly use him against himself.

Mr. Brown help me out am I on the right path here?

V/R

Rick


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## Bode (Feb 2, 2006)

In SL4 we have drills we practice which are not Chi Sao, but to the untrained eye, look very similar. We call the AOD drills. (Anticipated Offense and Defense). Many of our movements are difficult to describe in words much like the 12 point system Mr. Brown mentioned. What takes 1000 words to describe would take five minutes to demonstrate. 

Mr. Brown, are you really using Chi Sao or the UKF, altered, version? Chi Sao is a specific term referring to Wing Chun. As Flying Crane said, other systems have their own versions, but are similar in concept. I'm just curious to know if there is another name for the drills you practice? Is Chi Sao just a simple way of getting people to understand the concept? I know that is why I use the term when describing the AOD drills. I might say, "It's LIKE Chi Sao, but not the same."


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## bujuts (Feb 2, 2006)

Bode said:
			
		

> Mr. Brown, are you really using Chi Sao or the UKF, altered, version? Chi Sao is a specific term referring to Wing Chun. As Flying Crane said, other systems have their own versions, but are similar in concept. I'm just curious to know if there is another name for the drills you practice? Is Chi Sao just a simple way of getting people to understand the concept? I know that is why I use the term when describing the AOD drills. I might say, "It's LIKE Chi Sao, but not the same."


 
To tell you the truth, I'm not really familiar with Sticky Hands as its practiced in Wing Chun, or other systems for that matter.  I was not aware that Chi Sao is a term exclusive to Wing Chun, and if so, then there are number of things we do differently, based on my observations of Wing Chun.  In any event, we do not refer to it as Chi Sao in our typical terminology, but defer to our native tongue and simply call it "Sticky Hands".  My doing so in previous posts was erroneous, if indeed "Chi Sao" is a term specific to W.C.  What we do definitely classifies as "Sticky Hands", but again my experience with S.H. outside of AK is nil.

Because I know so little about W.C., I cannot really say if what we're doing is "Chi Sao" or not, if what you say is true.  I know only that what we do 1) quickly ties up limbs, 2) cancels dimensions, 3) operates in all three of Contact Penetration, Impact Manipulation, Contact Manipulation, and Contact Maintenance within all 1st through 3rd rings, 4) is much more invasive than other sticky hand practices I've seen, 5) hurts like hell when motions are fueld by stance changes, 6) is more _pro_active than _re_active 7) is founded on correct use 12 Points, is based on the basic Sets, and 9) has direct application in the kenpo knife system

Hope that helps.  Thanks for the post.  Good day.

Steven Brown
UKF

Hope that helps.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> To tell you the truth, I'm not really familiar with Sticky Hands as its practiced in Wing Chun, or other systems for that matter. I was not aware that Chi Sao is a term exclusive to Wing Chun, and if so, then there are number of things we do differently, based on my observations of Wing Chun. In any event, we do not refer to it as Chi Sao in our typical terminology, but defer to our native tongue and simply call it "Sticky Hands". It classifies as "Sticky Hands" as much as anything, but again my experience with S.H. outside of AK is nil.
> 
> Because I know so little about W.C., I cannot really say if what we're doing is "Chi Sao" or not, if indeed that is something exlusive to only one system as you suggest. I know only that 1) it quickly ties up limbs, 2) cancels dimensions, 3) operates in all three of Contact Penetration, Impact Manipulation, Contact Manipulation, and Contact Maintenance within all 1st through 3rd rings, 4) is much more invasive than other sticky hand practices I've seen, 5) hurts like hell when motions are fueld by stance changes, 6) is more _pro_active than _re_active 7) is founded on correct use 12 Points, and 8) has direct application in the kenpo knife system.
> 
> ...


 
First, while Wing Chun's Chi Sao (commonly translated as "sticky hands") may be the most widely recognized practice, I do not believe it is exclusive to Wing Chun.  I believe other Chinese arts have a version of Chi Sao, tho they may not be identical in practice and I am unfortunately unable to give any concrete examples.  Proponents of other arts are welcome to weigh in on this.  I guess Tai Chi's Push Hands would be an example.

For clarity, I will try to give a description of Wing Chun's Chi Sau, and I will try to keep it under 10,000 words. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Chi Sau is a sensitivity and reaction-building drill.  It is not Free Sparring, but comes somewhat close to Free Sparring and builds skills that are useful in Free Sparring and downright fighting.

Two players face each other and Touch Hands.  This is a neutral connection of the hands, wrists and forarms that is constantly changing and moving, but withing certain parameters.  It acts as a sort of beginning point for the exercise, and can be referred to as Rolling.

As the players roll, they develop sensitivity by feeling their opponent's movement.  Skill is developed in reading the opponent's movement thru physical contact, rather than thru visual stimulus.  During the rolling, players can launch attacks at each other.  Attacks and defenses develop out of this dynamic exercise.  Gradually, skill is developed in reading the opponent's intentions thru feeling his movement and reacting to what he is doing.  Contact is usually maintained, as loss of contact means you can no longer read your opponent thru the physical sensitivity.  Players learn to "ride" an opponent's attacks, by keeping in contact and redirecting what is coming in. Redirecting can often set up effecive counters and defenses.  Attacks and defenses often involve pinning, trapping, and otherwise tying up the opponents hands, coupled with finishing strikes.  Chi sau can also incorporate kicks and other leg work and stepping.

After an exchange of attacks and defenses, often the players will return to rolling as a way of starting over without stopping the exercise.  But new attacks and defenses can be launched at any time in Freeform Chi Sau.

Variations on Chi Sau can be done to keep it within certain limiting parameters for less advanced people, or it can be done completely freeform which can approach free sparring.

Hope this helps and gives some clarity on Chi Sau withing Wing Chun's framework.


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## Rick Wade (Feb 2, 2006)

Mr. Brown the next time you see Jeff Lujan get him to show you about the traditional Stick Hands.  1 it hurts like hell and to If he closes his eyes it will hurt alot more.  I still can't beat him at this game.

V/R

Rick


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## Bode (Feb 2, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Hope that helps.  Thanks for the post.  Good day.


Thanks, that does help. I was simply wondering if you had a specific term for what you do other than what is commonly considered a generic term "sticky hands." Apparently you have some very specific applications in your art that are  unique to your  instructors  use of  "stick hands." I was wondering what I should refer to your arts version as. That is all. 



			
				Flying Crane said:
			
		

> First, while Wing Chun's Chi Sao (commonly translated as "sticky hands") may be the most widely recognized practice, I do not believe it is exclusive to Wing Chun. I believe other Chinese arts have a version of Chi Sao, tho they may not be identical in practice and I am unfortunately unable to give any concrete examples. Proponents of other arts are welcome to weigh in on this. I guess Tai Chi's Push Hands would be an example.



I am not 100% certain that Chi Sao is specific to Wing Chun. It may have been developed earlier as part of a prior art, then made famous by Wing Chun. However, if Tai Chi calls it "Push Hands" then it isn't Chi Sao, it's "Push Hands." There is a reason they changed the name, much like I think the UKF should change the name to be specific to their art. Why lump something together under the term "Stick Hands" when each group teaches it completely differently with different concepts. Ah, doesn't matter. This got way more complicated than I thought it should be. 

Either way, Sticky Hands, Push Hands, AOD, etc... it seems like many find usefullness in the similar drills. I for one find that CQB is highly improved when utilizing these drills. In addition, reaction time, recognizing different attacking postures, and sensitivity is a direct byproduct of the training.


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## Rick Wade (Feb 2, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> First, while Wing Chun's Chi Sao (commonly translated as "sticky hands") may be the most widely recognized practice, I do not believe it is exclusive to Wing Chun. I believe other Chinese arts have a version of Chi Sao, tho they may not be identical in practice and I am unfortunately unable to give any concrete examples. Proponents of other arts are welcome to weigh in on this. I guess Tai Chi's Push Hands would be an example.
> 
> For clarity, I will try to give a description of Wing Chun's Chi Sau, and I will try to keep it under 10,000 words.
> 
> ...


 

This sounds exactly what I have been show in the past of what sticky hands is.  

It is completely different than ours.  However with that being said.  They have allot of the same principles and ideas except that these are a predetermined move more like and exercise with the building blocks of spontaneity built in.  That will allow you to jump through the different rings of the exercise or even from one exercise to another.

Hope that made sense.

V/R

Rick


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## jdinca (Feb 2, 2006)

Interesting thread. Sticky hand in our system only refers to a specific move.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2006)

Bode said:
			
		

> I am not 100% certain that Chi Sao is specific to Wing Chun. It may have been developed earlier as part of a prior art, then made famous by Wing Chun. However, if Tai Chi calls it "Push Hands" then it isn't Chi Sao, it's "Push Hands." There is a reason they changed the name, much like I think the UKF should change the name to be specific to their art. Why lump something together under the term "Stick Hands" when each group teaches it completely differently with different concepts. Ah, doesn't matter. This got way more complicated than I thought it should be.


 
Well, Push Hands is not the same as Wing Chun's Chi Sau, but I think it would qualify as tai chi's version of the same idea in training.  I didn't mean to imply that they are the same thing under different names.  Just drawing parallels and similarities between different systems, that's all.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 2, 2006)

I just learned the UKF stinking hand set One. Its cool, but hard to change to that motion. At close range it starts to come toguether. I hope to learn set Two Soon.
Sean


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## brothershaw (Feb 2, 2006)

1- Does anyone know of any kenpo sticky hands vid clips on the internet?
  I am very curious as to what it looks like.
2- Various kung fu systems have chi sau or what they call chi sau, or something analogous in thier training. However that means different things to different styles as stated earlier.
3- In wing chun there are great differences in what constitutes good chi sau training, and execution from school to school and branch to branch
however I believe everybody recognises quality chi sau  if/when they experience it ( although thats a contradiction)


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## Rick Wade (Feb 3, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> I just learned the UKF stinking hand set One. Its cool, but hard to change to that motion. At close range it starts to come toguether. I hope to learn set Two Soon.
> Sean


 
Hey TOD who taught that to you?  Was it Shawn Gants?  That dude can hit.

V/R

Rick


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> I just learned the UKF stinking hand set One.


 
Stinking Hand Set?  that sounds potent!


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 3, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Hey TOD who taught that to you? Was it Shawn Gants? That dude can hit.
> 
> V/R
> 
> Rick


The one and Only. Tell me about it. LOL He is learning to hit harder now!!!!
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 3, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Stinking Hand Set? that sounds potent!


Perhaps I misspelled that. Or was I simply refering to "Poison Fist" 
Sean


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## Rick Wade (Feb 4, 2006)

Any chance I can talk you into the Seminar in Pheonix in March i will be flying in from Hawaii just for it. I had already commited to this seminar before I found out about the one in Washington.  I would like to meet you finally.  

V/R

Rick


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 4, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Any chance I can talk you into the Seminar in Pheonix in March i will be flying in from Hawaii just for it. I had already commited to this seminar before I found out about the one in Washington. I would like to meet you finally.
> 
> V/R
> 
> Rick


Phoenix is too far for my blood. I'm sure we will meet sometime or perhaps at a Professor Hancock function. If I ever get out to Hawaii again it would be great to look you up.
Sean


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## Rick Wade (Feb 5, 2006)

When Mr. Hancock came out to Hawaii last month.  I had the pleasure of talking to him for about 1 1/2 at Jamba juice and then I took acouple of friends over to Mr. Quicks house and we had a good time with him working a couple of techiniques.

V/R

Rick


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## TChase (Feb 6, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> I just learned the UKF stinking hand set One. Its cool, but hard to change to that motion. At close range it starts to come toguether. I hope to learn set Two Soon.
> Sean


 

STINKING hand.....I don't think I want to learn that one. Lol.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2006)

It was a mispelling. Sorry, but its too late to edit now. I hope you won't let a spelling error hinder your journey through the art. It would be a shame.
Sean


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## TChase (Feb 6, 2006)

I know it was a misspelling but I couldn't resist the joke.  The sticky hands sets are an integral part of my training.  I'm glad you enjoy them.

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> When Mr. Hancock came out to Hawaii last month. I had the pleasure of talking to him for about 1 1/2 at Jamba juice and then I took acouple of friends over to Mr. Quicks house and we had a good time with him working a couple of techiniques.
> 
> V/R
> 
> Rick


Skip (I mean Mr. Hancock) never fails to blow my mind with his insights. Sometimes I miss what he is talking about because I am so intent on considering what he has just said a moment before. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. I'll look forward to training with you in the future.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2006)

TChase said:
			
		

> I know it was a misspelling but I couldn't resist the joke. The sticky hands sets are an integral part of my training. I'm glad you enjoy them.
> 
> :asian:


No problem. Actualy until this thread, I thought the person whom taught it to me was saying Sticking hands. I guess I should get my ears checked. This was the root of my mis-spelling.
Sean


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