# Have you ever tried building up a group?



## geezer (Dec 8, 2011)

Are you part of a large, well-established WC/VT/WT school or group, or are you a member, or maybe even a leader of a small group that is struggling to keep going? 

Locally, I'm in two small groups, one in each of the styles I practice: NVTO Ving Tsun and DTE Eskrima. Although, each group is affiliated with larger organizations, our local groups are a small gang of dedicated students. We are all in it for "the long haul" but even so, there is a slow natural attrition rate as folks move on in life. That means the rest of us have to recruit new members if we want to have training partners or have a base to bring in our own instructors from out of town for advanced training. Personally, I'm no salesman. Same for the other guys I work with. We'd far rather just train. But you know the saying, "if you don't grow, you die". Any thoughts?


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## yak sao (Dec 8, 2011)

Been beating that same horse for more years than I care to remember.
We started out as a small group of 5 training out of my garage. It blossomed to a full fledged school at one time with a good 30 plus members.
The group split. People dropped out, moved away or simply moved on.
Now we're back in the same old garage with 3 of the original 5, plus an additional 10 or 12.
For the record, I'm no salesman either.


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## Domino (Dec 9, 2011)

We have a rotation of new students which can spoil things sometimes.
Good on you for keeping it moving !!


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## Thesemindz (Dec 9, 2011)

I've been trying to grow a kenpo training group here locally for a while. I have a lot of people say they'll totally be there and then never show up. I have some students come and go, and some only come a few times, and some who tell me every week they _want _to be there but then never are. It's hard. Right now I have one semi-regular student, three or four others who show up every once in a while, and another half dozen or so who keep telling me they really want to come out. You have to keep training. My philosophy is that I just need to keep getting better. The better I am at karate, the more people will want to do karate with me. It's a challenge though. It's hard to get motivated when you're the only person showing up to class. I was offering one class on monday afternoons and everyone was begging me to start an evening class, so I added a tuesday night class and then none of those people showed up. So now I'm looking at adding a morning class on another day, or diversifying and adding ground fighting or sparring classes. Schedules are hard. Everyone has something they need to do all the time. Just keep pushing and training. Hopefully others will come and join you. If they don't, karate is it's own reward.


-Rob


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## yak sao (Dec 9, 2011)

I never hear anyone tell me they have no interest in learning MA, in fact, just the oppositte. They tell me they would love to do it but____________(fill in the blank)Everyone is busy. That's just a fact of life in the 21st century. What it boils down to is whether or not they are willing to make a commitment to it.
I know there are a lot of things vying for our attention these days, but was it really any different 200 years ago? Back then, they had to spend a lot more time and energy doing things that we take for granted these days. They may not have had much more time to train than we do now, they just didn't have ro worry about shutting off the TV or tearing away from the computer.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 9, 2011)

geezer said:


> Are you part of a large, well-established WC/VT/WT school or group, or are you a member, or maybe even a leader of a small group that is struggling to keep going?
> 
> Locally, I'm in two small groups, one in each of the styles I practice: NVTO Ving Tsun and DTE Eskrima. Although, each group is affiliated with larger organizations, our local groups are a small gang of dedicated students. We are all in it for "the long haul" but even so, there is a slow natural attrition rate as folks move on in life. That means the rest of us have to recruit new members if we want to have training partners or have a base to bring in our own instructors from out of town for advanced training. Personally, I'm no salesman. Same for the other guys I work with. We'd far rather just train. But you know the saying, "if you don't grow, you die". Any thoughts?



You forgot a small well-established WC/VT/WT school. That is what my sifu has and he has said many times if it was not for his other business and his love of Wing Chun that his school would have been closed long ago. He is no salesaman either, nor am I, but I tend to think, at least in my area, that it will no matter how much you try and sell it there are only a few people really interested in "training" it. SUre they want to all be Ip Man (form teh movie) or Bruce Lee, but when it comes right down to it they don't have time or don't want spend the time or don't want to do the hard work needed to get there.



yak sao said:


> I never hear anyone tell me they have no interest in learning MA, in fact, just the oppositte. They tell me they would love to do it but____________(fill in the blank)Everyone is busy.



This is what I got when trying to form a Xingyiquan group recently. A lot of YEAH COOL, I'm There...followed by well, I'm busy or my schedule does not allow, or (and I am betting this is part of the problem with WIng Chun too) Hey that looks hard and painful...


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## Eric_H (Dec 9, 2011)

Been part of a school that struggled with membership issues, been owner of two separate clubs that struggled with membership issues. Being a Sifu/Sensei/Coach/Whatever is a tough gig. 

There's no easy solution to it, just have to keep plugging away, trying new marketing angles and getting your name out in the community.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 9, 2011)

Its sad to see that. I love wing chun and Im always interested with what other wing chun schools develop into their training. The key to attracting new students is actually not to 'over try'. What I mean by this is that there is a kickboxing school that I know of in our local area that almost bully people into joining up. They approach people in the high street and get them to 'sign up' by filling out forms etc. Its far too aggressive and in my opinion a bit thuggish. 

Put up some flyers, make deals with your local chinese takeaways to promote your business (they tend to have a soft spot for wing chun). 

You would be surprised where your new students will come from.


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## Jox (Dec 10, 2011)

*Hi guys...  
*
I live in a small town. I have a small group 3-4 students. 
Students come and go. Some stays and practice for awhile and later go.
Some stay longer time and then just disappear without saying goodbye. 
 Some have interest, but do not have time etc, etc...

It looks that only one who persist, am I.
 I keep going forward no matter what, ups and downs...

 In my opinion, four primary prerequisites for every martial artist are needed:

 1.Time
 2.Dedication
 3.Practice
 4.Discipline    

Only a few are willing to keep them through longer period of time...


Jox


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## Blindside (Dec 10, 2011)

Not WC, but I've helped build two Kali training groups.  The second group I started three years ago, at the end of the first year I had four guys, at the end of the second I had 10, now, at the end of the third I have 4 guys again.   It is a good group, but I would like to continue to expand.  One of the reasons for the decrease was me shutting down entry last year so I could focus on the group I had, knowing that I would face attrition, unfortunately I got a little more than I bargained for. I will start advertising again after the new year.

No other advise than to keep on going on, I don't advertise except for Craigslist and am listed on a couple on online advertising sites like dojolocater.com.  I did initial advertising by throwing a couple of cheap seminars, that got me the first couple of guys, and I knew I was targeting already experienced guys by aiming my seminars at other martial arts schools.  That worked fairly well, since then it has been half word of mouth and half Craigslist.


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## Thesemindz (Dec 10, 2011)

I've had a great response from craigslist. I don't use it now because I'm teaching out of my home and I don't want any weirdo off the internet knowing where I live and seeing my big screen tv. But in the past when I used craigslist I got an immediate and impressive number of inquiries.


-Rob


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## geezer (Dec 11, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> I've had a great response from craigslist. I don't use it now because I'm teaching out of my home and I don't want any weirdo off the internet knowing where I live and seeing my big screen tv. But in the past when I used craigslist I got an immediate and impressive number of inquiries. -Rob



I'll give it a try. I teach at a city park and intermittently offer classes at a Y, and I don't have an especially big TV, so I'm not worried!

--but to get back to the OP, ... the thing that gets me is that I know some really, really great guys out there also teaching MAs in a non-commercial way, and a lot of them have trouble building up groups. I know a couple of FMA stylists who are truly at master level, and they only have a few students. And on the other hand there are those strip-mall McDojos. Go figure.


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## jks9199 (Dec 11, 2011)

But how many of the Craigslist inquiries led to anything?  And how many were just nut jobs?  In short -- was the signal to noise ratio acceptable?


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## Blindside (Dec 12, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> But how many of the Craigslist inquiries led to anything?  And how many were just nut jobs?  In short -- was the signal to noise ratio acceptable?



I haven't run into anyone who I would classify as a "nut job," the whackiest guy I've met is one of my students now.  I'm really not sure why the signal/noise ratio would be different than what you would get advertising in the yellow pages.


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## Eric_H (Dec 12, 2011)

RE: Craig's list

I didn't have much success with it in Phoenix, and neither has my sihing that runs a club. However, neither of us had the photos/artwork to make a decent looking ad. If you've got some nice graphics or videos you can use, it's usually a good return on time investment. I think there are sites (i want to say thumbtack?) that specialize in making good looking craig's list ads for a fee. But I never tried them.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 12, 2011)

I understand the need for some advertisement but each person's problem can have unique aspects. I have a website:
www.tempewingchun.com

Other than that I do not advertise. Being somewhat ignorant of pc skills- I don't do Craig's list, Facebook, Link-ins.
I have had a group going since I came back to Arizona to Tempe from New mexico in 1985. I used to live in Tucson.

I am not interested in a large volume of students. I turn down a lot of inquiries... because real short termers waste their time and mine.
Just a fact- not trying to be arrogant.

About a third of the students are determined to learn wingchun gung fu. Another third zig zag some-because of demands of work and/or family. 
Another third are very erratic and get replaced. That is the rough picture.


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## geezer (Dec 12, 2011)

_@Vajramusti_  Joy, the couple of times I've visited your classes, I have to say, I think you have a nearly ideal set up. You have a fully outfitted garage-kwoon, cluttered with all kinds of cool martial arts stuff and an enthusiastic group of students absolutely filling the place. Everybody was training seriously and there was a really positive vibe. That's how it's supposed to be done!


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## Blindside (Dec 12, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> RE: Craig's list
> 
> I didn't have much success with it in Phoenix, and neither has my sihing that runs a club. However, neither of us had the photos/artwork to make a decent looking ad. If you've got some nice graphics or videos you can use, it's usually a good return on time investment. I think there are sites (i want to say thumbtack?) that specialize in making good looking craig's list ads for a fee. But I never tried them.



I had no idea about enhanced Craigslist ads, I will have to look into that, thanks!


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## ilhe4e12345 (Dec 12, 2011)

my area is similar to this. Its plagued by "karate schools" or teachers who advertise that they know what theya re doing but then you find out their teaching style they dont hold out, get boring, not make it fun, or teach the same general garbage. Now please im not insulting karate or anything like that...im refering to the teachers and how they teach, or how they act. In my area the teachers i have spoken too all have a "i am better than you" way of thinking. The "mcdojo's" all over the place seem to pull in a lot of children which is great to teach kids self defense and get them into it BUT then they just grow up. They lose interest and push away from it. My younger brother is guilty of this...he loved martial arts, was a belt away from black belt TSD years ago and has been taking classes with me in kung fu but i have noticed his additude towards it just isnt the same. He is still "interested" in martial arts, but i dont think enough to train. That and with working all the time and growing up its hard to make room to train.....

I have made sacrifices just so i can train 1 day a week. I WOULD LOVE TO TRAIN MORE but due to work i cannot. Its so different now then 200+ years ago. The real world takes control and everyone has responsibilites. I work with a guy who is back taking TSD after studying with my Sifu for years and he said the only reason he is so that he can finish what he started before he got with my Sifu. We have talked about how he would love to come back and train but barely has time to train with his current teacher and reaching his goal of instructor in his current art. He doesnt have the time currently to train and i understand as do a lot of people not have the time. 

Also keep in mind the economy has taken a big hit in the past years...and now things like MA and training arent within the relm of spending for a lot of people. Some schools are 100+ dollars a month and while they may offer a great program or great training but its just not in the budget. A good friend of mine had to stop training for 8 months and recently just started back up in training WC with his local teacher who he trained with for 10+ years becuase he was jobless for awhile and had to make a sacrifice. Its tuff and in the end the true loves of MA will find a way...we always do....

Its great to see guys and girls like you all out there trying to keep the arts alive, even if its only 4 or 5 people thats all it takes. Some people might need time to figure out what they want out of life....i personally wish i could train more but its just not in the cards right now...

Happy Training


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## Eric_H (Dec 13, 2011)

geezer said:


> an enthusiastic group of students absolutely filling the place. Everybody was training seriously and there was a really positive vibe. That's how it's supposed to be done!



Geezer,

That's one thing I can agree on - though Joy's school and mine rarely agree on what constitutes "good wing chun," most every one of his students I've met over the years has been a person of good attitude and character.  I'd say that reflects pretty well on their Sifu.


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## profesormental (Dec 14, 2011)

Greetings.

Here is how I see it.

If you do not train future SiFus, your lineage will die with you. Your experiences and trainings will not be remembered, and your impact in the world will be limited.

Even more clearly, from the meaning of SiFu = Teacher-Father, if your kids do not become parents themselves, your line will die off.

That to me is unacceptable. All this discovery and training and refinement of what I do, and no one to remember it and benefit from it.

The answer is marketing... yet it is not selling out. Bear with me for a little bit as I state my case.

I have for many years ventured into marketing and I do marketing for many local businesses/clients. That is how I pay the bills, my studies, and it is quite fun. I specially do Internet Marketing and Direct Response Marketing.

If you want a small club of dedicated students, then you can market to get those students into your school instead of them going elsewhere and having their interest for old school Wing Chun ruined. You can also, structure so that you increase retention while increasing the level of training in your school.

It is my interest to keep Wing Chun and Kung Fu training alive, thus I want to help you guys out. If you PM me or call me we can chat and I will help you figure out what kind of marketing systems you can set up that will be comfortable for you, but will increase the visibility of your school in your local area, specially using the Internet and other "guerrilla" tactics. This is not about hard selling; this is about being high level educators and sharing the passion you have for Wing Chun with others. They will self select from that. The more people you can help  through Wing Chun, the better your local community will be.

If you want more students and keep your lineage alive, then please contact me. The people here in this forum are among the coolest peoples in the Wing Chun circles that I know, since in so few places there is such an open sharing of knowledge that I'm sure has deeply benefited all of you to reach new levels of understanding of our Kuen Fat. This level of sharing is a MUST to be highly successful instructors. Also, this is recession proof stuff. No hard economic times excuses or time excuses.

This is my gift to you and my way of giving back for all these years of learning from you people. I've already done this with other Martial Arts friends and they are very happy with the results.

The least you will get is an interesting chat with me and my thanks!

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado
Academia de Karate Kung Fu y MMA de Carolina


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## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2011)

Profesormental -- that's a very generous and kind offer.  Maybe you can put a few general ideas here in the thread or comment on the ones that have been listed, as well?


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## yak sao (Dec 14, 2011)

I've done the Craigslist thing, flyers, yard signs ( that get stolen ) business cards, and website. The one that I seem to get the most results from is the website.
Another thing I have just recently started is a once a month Saturday workshop. It is on the first Sat of the month, that way it is easy to remember. We go for 4 hours, much like a seminar and I em encouraging the guys to start their own working groups, going over the things from the workshop.
I'm hoping by having multiple fronts in the way of several working groups, that we can grow the group at a better pace.


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## profesormental (Dec 14, 2011)

Greetings.

I want it to be for those that are really interested, post and take action, not lurkers. That is why I'm not going over the things on the open forum. I could answer direct questions to help though. And I want to talk to you personally over the phone or something so I can really help depending on the specifics of your school. If you want a small club, but want a few more students is a different thing than the business plan of a 100+ student school.

Here's how I see it: the people here in Martialtalk, in this forum are really good people with a firm grasp of Wing Chun. If someone that is less qualified, but has better marketing gets your students, then you should get better at marketing. What I'll share are the things that can be done that are easy to do, fast to implement, do not require high investment (most are free to do), and make the process of selling an educational experience instead of a hard sell. There are people interested in old school, well executed Kung Fu, but they can't find them or they get caught by others first.

If you frame things right, just sharing your passion for Wing Chun and what Wing Chun has done for you should be enough to enroll a student. You can even point to videos, Ip Man movie, Bruce Lee and other stuff as proof of Wing Chun's awesomeness. The biggest benefits or Wing Chun are hard to see, and hard to believe most times.

Some of the things I'll share are:

- ways to target the market that you really want, and how to identify it.
- how to use the local Google algorithms to place higher in search engines for prospective students.
- stuff that can be done that doesn't take much time yet yields the greatest benefits.
- how to become the "Kung Fu Authority" in your local area, maybe the "Kung Fu go to guy".
- how to "syndicate" what you do all over the Internets, for free or almost for free.
and a lot more stuff depending on your needs.

Hope that clarifies!

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado


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## shaolin_al (Dec 15, 2011)

sifu steve you have a website up which is a good start. I would consider posting the schedule on it and cost that tends to draw students right away. Maybe just try a craigslist ad. You could also make a few short clips of the training and on the youtube videos put a link to the website.


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## WCman1976 (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't have a school of my own, but I have seen this happen over the years at my Sifu's school. Right now I am the only senior student still there. My attendance is sporadic thanks to my hours at work. (12:30-8:30pm, when class is 6-7pm and I have only so many hours of vacation time.) People will come in for a month and be super serious...until they hit a plateau where their skills don't improve, and then they quit. Actually, I was the same way at first! When I first learned the style, I picked up on the techniques really fast...but when it came time to refine, I gave up! 

But back to the original topic, I'm going through the same thing now with fitness too. I'm running a free fitness class and people say, "Free? Oh yeah, awesome! I want to be more fit! I'll be there!" And then no one shows. They make the excuse of I didn't tell them early enough and they were busy, or I told them TOO early and they forgot, or this, or that, or whatever. The truth I have found is this: people make time for what is important to them, and what they SAY is important isn't always what REALLY matters.

I try to let go of the frustration and just work with the willing. If you show up, then I will help you. Letting go of this frustration isn't always easy, but I'd like to think I win the fight more often than not.


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## bully (Dec 30, 2011)

I have found it very difficult to maintain a group. Not being a sifu I gave my time to do admin, i.e. rent the room and email/text the guys reminders about training. It folded after only a few months as none of the participants wanted to take the class as that would require they put their time into it. 

A huge shame as there were talented guys who's could have kept things together with help from the rest of us, unfortunately people would not step up to the plate and give any time. 

I am a doer and when I say I will do something, then I do it. Not everyone is.

It has come to me either giving up WC in 2012 or heading to a guy who I don't know very well and the WC is very different to what I know. Needs must so I will head over to him and go in with an empty cup.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 20, 2012)

Interesting reading all of the posts. Its the first aniversary of my school this month and so far I've got about 30 students across two classes. The attrition rate isn't too bad but it is really depressing when someone trains for a while and just when they start to look like they're getting it, they pack up. I'm obviously a bit of a mug but as a sifu, in a couple of months you do get that kind of paternal feeling towards the student and when they just stop coming it sucks.


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## qwksilver61 (Feb 22, 2012)

I did the craigslist....all I got was the let *me* show you types,a couple of people I shut down,others....I simply moved on.A lot want instant "now."I guess it's all in how you package it.congrats to the 30 student guy!


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## geezer (Feb 24, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> ...it is really depressing when someone trains for a while and just when they start to look like they're getting it, they pack up ...you do get that kind of paternal feeling towards the student and when they just stop coming it sucks.



This is especially tru in a small group. I invest a lot of extra time, free of charge, to get people up to where they are half-way decent and it's very discouraging to lose them. My goal has been to build-up some people to the point where they can be more than just students and actually be worthwhile _training partners_. I'm not there yet.


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## Blindside (Feb 24, 2012)

geezer said:


> This is especially tru in a small group. I invest a lot of extra time, free of charge, to get people up to where they are half-way decent and it's very discouraging to lose them. My goal has been to build-up some people to the point where they can be more than just students and actually be worthwhile _training partners_. I'm not there yet.



Ouch, been there, just lost a guy that I have had for two years who was getting to the point where we could really start to play and then he just stops coming.  Family time, I get it, but he's been in martial arts longer than I have (like 10 years longer) and he has just stopped coming.  Frustrating.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 24, 2012)

geezer said:


> This is especially tru in a small group. I invest a lot of extra time, free of charge, to get people up to where they are half-way decent and it's very discouraging to lose them. My goal has been to build-up some people to the point where they can be more than just students and actually be worthwhile _training partners_. I'm not there yet.



I'm there now and getting ready to throw in the towel, but it has only been about 6 months


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## Stylez777 (Apr 23, 2012)

I work in sales, and believe me day in and day out I hear every excuse in the book. I have no time, no money, not interested etc etc etc.

You do need to listen carefully and determine if what they are saying is an objection or if it is a valid excuse. No time is the easiet thing to say. It really is the oldest excuse in the book and everyone uses it. (someone already said this) If they really have an interest and it's something they really want to do they will find/make the time. If they aren't that means it's not a priority and you then have to decide is this a person you really want in this school? Is this someone worth my time to teach because they are not willing to make/find the time to dedicate. but if you want to get them here is a few things you can try:

Potential student say "I'd love to come but I just don't have the time"
Your reply "I totally understand how you feel, a lot of my current students felt they had no time when they first started, but once they came down and seen the benefits training provided them they found they did have the time to train" (you can mess with the wording but key basics here is Feel, Felt, Found)

Potential student "(they keep rambling excuses off time, money, I don't know etc etc etc)
You "_____(insert persons name), I know where you are coming from. Can I make a suggestion? (pause for them to agree you can) Why don't you come down to the __________(insert school, kwoon, dojo, class etc) check it out for 15-20 minutes and see what you think. There is no pressure and you'll be able to decide for yourself if it's right for you or not." If you want you can also add "Isn't it worth it to you to invest 15 minutes of time into yourself? What if that 15 minutes of time you do invest was able to help you feel ____(insert a benefit they would recieve from training), wouldn't that be worth it to you?" 

Here is my FAVORITE thing to say to actually qualify if what they are telling me is truth or not.

Potential Student "It sounds great but I don't think I can do it because I don't have any money (could be anything money, time, wife won't let me, etc etc etc)
You say "(start knodding your head in agreement before you reply if you are in person. If on phone you can skip the knodding) I've spoke with many people that are in the exact situation as you. Let me ask you a question? (pause a second or 2 to see if they knod or agree or give you indication it ok for you to ask the question 90% of people will) If (insert the objection they gave you. Time money kids etc etc) money was no object would you sign up for classes? see what they say. If they say oh yes with out a doubt, then there ya go work with them on the money and they may join. If they still say well I don't know maybe I'd have to see etc etc then the initial objection they gave is phony and something else is the real reason so you'd have to ask another question like "If it's not money that is holding you back, what is it? Maybe I can help work with you. Is it me? do you not like my ability to train you??" This is a great response because you find out right away if they don't trust you. You want to get them talking and listen to what they say.

Those are just some quick objection handling respones. it's best to make them genuine and sound like it's you talking and that your not trying to recite something back to them. These will help you in many ways. Getting to people's real objections as to why they won't join your class ro school can help you in the long run find out what you may be doing wrong presentation wise and help you change. If most of them have to do with money then maybe your dues are too high, if they don't like your personality maybe you have to work on that, maybe your location they don't like or other people in the class, it could be hundreds of reasons. It's best to know the truth so you know how to progress goign forward to "close" more students so our business grows. Hope I was able to offer some basic help.


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## qwksilver61 (Apr 29, 2012)

Imagine Earth.......then imagine Mars.....just imagine the distance.....people in Miami have progressed,passed by me like a whizzing frisbee.. and all I do is wait,train alone, and hope.It is a terrible thing to want.....and to deal with knuckleheads."everybody wants to rule the world" who was that? tears for fears? so here i sit, lonely hearted tried to BLEEP! but only bleeeeped! man, maybe Wing Tzun was not meant to be...anywho I'll stay bummed...at least I have my beer...damn,no chips!:soapbox: go ahead laugh, I am.Take care......good luck to you all


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