# Weapon for home defense



## Nightingale (Apr 8, 2005)

My roommate has moved, so I'm now living by myself.  She refused to have a weapon in the apartment, and I respected that since I don't think someone who's terrified of guns should have access to one because she's too scared to learn how to use it, but if scared enough by someone breaking in, wouldn't hesitate to grab it, which would be bad.  So, now she's gone and I want a gun.

I'm debating between a shotgun or a 38/.357 S&W revolver.  I had originally been thinking of a glock or a sig, but tried a couple of revolvers and liked them better.  They seemed to fit my hand better than the semiauto pistols.

I know the shotgun is probably better for home defense, which is my primary purpose, but I'm a lot more likely to take the revolver to the range more often.

Opinions?


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## Cruentus (Apr 8, 2005)

The Shotgun is not necessarily better for home defense. Many times, a handgun is simply more accessable.

If your more inclined to take the revolver to the range, then you just answered your own question: I say get the revolver.

Paul


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## Tgace (Apr 8, 2005)

Ditto


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## Ceicei (Apr 8, 2005)

If you like the revolver better than a semi-auto, then go for it. Be sure to put in the training to become very comfortable with your new firearm and put in shooting practice often. As far as space and cover are concerned, a revolver would be much easier to handle and use than a shotgun.

   - Ceicei


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## Tgace (Apr 8, 2005)

Well..that kinda depends. If I were taking the "safe room", lock down and hold while I wait for the police approach to home defense, the shotgun is great. 

As a civillian though, a legally owned handgun has a lot more flexibility. Start with the revolver if that is the most comfortable. As you become experienced you may find that auto isnt so hard to handle after all....

IMO. Learn the handgun first then learn long gun. The handgun is the best "personal defense" firearm IMO because you are more likely to have it on you. Most people dont wear slung long arms day to day.....


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## dearnis.com (Apr 8, 2005)

Get the one with which you are most comfortable; practice a lot.  Sounds like this will be a revolver; fine choice.  Later, you can add the shotgun.  Guns are like kittens; they are happier with sibling s to keep them company!


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## Bammx2 (Apr 8, 2005)

I have a stick!

:uhyeah:


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## dubljay (Apr 8, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> I have a stick!
> 
> :uhyeah:


   I have a few of those myself, and a few firearms, not to mention my compound bow (which [font=&quot]incidentally[/font] is the most accessible to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).

 But back on topic, go with what works for you, if you don't like the gun you wont practice with it, and if you dont practice it wont help much.


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## Gray Phoenix (Apr 8, 2005)

The best self defense weapon is a dog. The chances of someone entering a home with a dog are significantly lower in comparison to the gun owner. The stats also show that a residents gun is more likely to kill the owner or the owners family than it is an intruder. Of coure, I'm typing this while I stare at my gun safe with over 20 firearms in it, and a house with 3 firearms hidden around it. :mp5: 

IF your willing to get the PROFESSIONAL training, (boyfriends, husbands and family members dont count, regardless of occupation/expierience), and IF your willing to put in the time it takes to become proficient with your firearms of choice, then you are on que with the revolver.

I would advise against anything with the word "Lady" enscribed on the frame. These are marketed to boyfriends and husbands who mistakenly think that something small, supposedly for a female hand, would be better and easier to use. The opposite is true. Basic physics.  2 guns that shoot the same round , one weighs 11 ounces, the other weighs 4 pounds, which one will recoil more? 

I have shot just about every model handgun in existance, those cute little "lady" guns hurt. I'd rather shoot my 44 mag.

OK so no more of my ramblings: My recommendation, considering I have never met or seen you, Smith & Wesson Model 686, 4 inch barrel. Keep 38s in it. It'll shoot 357 mag, but i hate to over penetrate and kill the kids/nuns/boyscout troop across the street.


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## OULobo (Apr 9, 2005)

Seeing how this is the firing range, I'll stick with firearms opinions. 

I'd go with a .357 revolver for confined space mobility, easy of use, storage ease, stopping power, lack of penetration and reliability.

Shotgun for stopping power, lack of penetration, and "accuracy".


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## KenpoTex (Apr 9, 2005)

If you see yourself practicing with the handgun more then go with that.  There's nothing wrong with a revolver, get whatever is comfortable for you.  

A shotgun far more "effective" defensive (or offensive ) situation, however you have to consider other factors.  For example, if you live in an apartment with other people sleeping 8 feet from you I would not advise a shotgun or a rifle.  1" of sheetrock won't stop the projectiles.  Obviously, it won't stop a pistol bullet either but the same characteristics (shot pattern, multiple projectiles) that make a shotgun deadly to a criminal increase the danger to the neighbors.  If you're looking at a .38/.357 I would recommend .38+p's in something like hydra-shoks or Rangers to help reduce over penetration.

Just my $0.02


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## Jerry (Apr 11, 2005)

> The best self defense weapon is a dog. The chances of someone entering a home with a dog are significantly lower in comparison to the gun owner. The stats also show that a residents gun is more likely to kill the owner or the owners family than it is an intruder.


I found it very interesting that you set two different statistics for different things (dogs as a deterrent vs firearms as a liability) without their corrilary points.

More children under 12 are attacked by dogs than any other age group... and it's usually the family dog(1). In just one city (Pontiac Michigan) there were 53 attacks by dogs which resulted in which dogs had bitten the victim's several times causing stiches and /or servere injury(2). In a cite with a mere 66,000 people (12), this would extrapolate to 236,000 severe injuries inficted by dogs in the US every year. In the US, there are more than 20 fatalities a year, though this number is very small compared to the number of non-fatal maulings. Like firearms, you are most likely to be bitten by your own dog (3).

There is a higher listed accidental death rate for firearms (600 in 2000) though there is a far lower incidence of non-fatal injuy at 18,000 (12). Further, it's often asserted that many of the "accidental shootings" are suicides, and some homicides. (see also my statistics by age later in this post).

To put this is perspective: the 600 childhood deaths from accidental gunshots in 2000 compare to 22,300 dealths from cars, burns, drowing, and poisons (4). Further, most of the accidental deaths (70%) occur in children 15-19 years of age (11). To me, this implies poor instruction on the part of the parents. It's a problem, not with firearms, but with education.

I've been trying to track down an accidental fireamrs death rate for Switzerland, but without success. Ayone got one?

But the other part of your comment is the effect on crime. For that, I'd point to two instances where a juristiction changed gun ownership laws. First Australia, where in 1996 the government seized most of the populations firearms. In some areas, this resulted in a 300% increase in homicides with firearms. Roberies increased 60% the following year. Two years following the gun ban/confiscation, armed robberies rose by 73 percent, unarmed robberies by 28 percent, kidnappings by 38 percent, assaults by 17 percent and manslaughter by 29 percent. (7)

In contrast, I present Kennesaw GA (8). In 1992 Kennesaw passed a law which required homeowners to own firearms. The year that the law went into effect, crime against persons plummeted 74%. The next year is fell an additional 45 percent (9).

The effecacy of firearms is undeniable, with a successful use ever 13 seconds or so (10). Having had a friend raped with her dog in the next room, I'm a little more suspect of the true efficacy of a pooch. 

1 - LA Times: Reprinted at: http://www.unclematty.com/woofpub/articles/toothorconsequences.htm?#386
2- http://ncrf2004.tripod.com/id4.html
3- http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0084.htm
4 - http://www.haciendapub.com/edcor12.html
5 - http://www.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/legaff/Fact/gunown.html
6 - http://www.ssaa.org.au/AccidentfirearmVallother.html
7 - http://www.haciendapub.com/edcor12.html
8 - http://kennesaw.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm
9 - http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/crime_rate_plummets.htm
10 - http://www.spofga.org/EC/2nd_amendment.htm
11 - http://www.regulateguns.org/fact_sheets/guns_youth.asp
12 - http://www.womenshooters.com/wfn/injuriesdown.html


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## TonyM. (Apr 11, 2005)

.357 magnum revolver. Should be issued to girls at age ten with instructions.


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## dearnis.com (Apr 11, 2005)

Just a footnote to Jerry's post- those "children" 15-19 years old are in the truly prime crime years.  US firearms statistics commonly capture the shootings of those who have made career choices where lead poisoning comes with the territory.


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## searcher (Apr 11, 2005)

I am going to go it the other direction.   I don't exactly live in the best area and though I do have a large number of guns I am a firm believer in a double barrel, double hammer shotgun.   You will not have to worry about strya bullets over-penetrating and killing your neighbors or your family.   If you do decide to go with a shotgun or a handgun, go to a range beforehand and try out different weapons.   Get some expert advice, like law enforcement, military, professional shooters, etc.   Then find yourself an instructor.   Do all of this before you purchase your "weapon of choice."    You will also need to check your local and state laws concerning the firearms that you are choosing from.    You can also expect to spend several days per month at the range shooting a whole bunch of rounds.   So choose a gun that will not break the bank.   

I have been shooting and hunting since the age of 5(we start young in my hometown).   I have hunted everything from rabbits to people and no matter how much you train you will never truly be ready for the first time you draw down on a live person.     Make a wise well-informed decision and hope that you never have to defend your life or the life of a loved one.

If you need something in the mean-time go to the local pet store and buy the largest dog bowl you can find.    Then drag it home behind you car.   Paint a name like killer, spike or some other menacing name on it and place it by your back door.    This has been known to deter potential burgulars and thugs from trying to enter a house.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 12, 2005)

As Jerry said, most accidental firearms deaths involve 15-19 year-olds.  On a side note, like Chad said, these "accidental deaths" often include figures from gang-related crime (the brady bunch is especially notorious for this type of "fuzzy math").  To further "footnote" this...I read somewhere recently (don't ask, if I remembered I'd post it ) that in _real_ accidental shootings, it's usually not a case of the family 5-year-old finding dad's gun (although this does happen in rare circumstances); it's a case of the 15-19 year-old shooting another person.  The interesting thing to note is that in a majority of cases the shooter has a history of juvenile delinquency which could include an actuall criminal history; or such things as underage drinking, drug-use, etc.  In other words, it's not just your average kid, it's a kid that's got a host of other problems.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 12, 2005)

Hey little sister...shotgun (as Billy Idol would say). If you go with a shotgun try a 20 gauge. Its still more powerful than a handgun and has easier recoil than a 12.

If you have to go for a wheel gun...I'll go unconventional and say maybe try one chambered for 9mm? The 9mm is an easy shooter with much less felt recoil than a 357 Mag but offering superior ballistics than a 38 special in a shorter package. There is also a BUNCH of self defense ammo for the 9mm and practice ammo is cheap. You can carry/load 6 at a time with moon clips.


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## Nightingale (Apr 13, 2005)

well, I ended up getting a shotgun.  It was cost that finally made my decision, as there's been some break-ins in my apartment complex, and I wanted to get something immediately rather than having to save money for another month or two.  Over the summer, I'll be working so I can pick up a handgun then.

see attached...


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## dubljay (Apr 13, 2005)

A shotgun is a good choice for homedefense.  It is not quite as quick to handle as a handgun but practice can over come that.  Be sure to get lots of practice and become familiar with the little quirks that its bound to have.  

 Here's hoping you never have to use if for its intended purpose.

 -Josh


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## Cruentus (Apr 13, 2005)

Nightingale said:
			
		

> well, I ended up getting a shotgun.  It was cost that finally made my decision, as there's been some break-ins in my apartment complex, and I wanted to get something immediately rather than having to save money for another month or two.  Over the summer, I'll be working so I can pick up a handgun then.
> 
> see attached...



Looks nice. I am not real good at recognizing Shotguns from pics; what kind is it? 

Make sure that you get to the range with it regularly!


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## RBaddorf (Apr 13, 2005)

A shotgun is a good choice for defence.  As Tulisan says get plenty of range time with it.  When things are going bad fast and the stress level is up, is not the time to be finding out how the weapon works.  I would also see if there is anywhere in the area to learn weapon retention.  The draw back of using a long gun (shotgun or rifle) in a house, is it is easier for someone to take away from you than a handgun is.  This is because the barrel leads, so can be grabbed as it comes around a corner.  For this reason and others, do not try to clear your home yourself, if you think someone is in there.  Put yourself in your safe room with your weapon and call 911.  Home Depot sells little magnetic balanced alarms for about $20.00 for four of them.  They stick on doors and windows and will sound an alarm when the door or window is opened.  Lock your bedroom door at night.  Anything that will give you time/warning will allow you to get to your weapon and into your safe area.  A weapon doesn't make you safe.  Common sense and knowing how to use the weapon is what makes you safe.

Just my two cents worth.  Congrats on your new weapon. 

Ron


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## psi_radar (Apr 13, 2005)

Good choice. Since you live in an apartment complex, overpenetration is even more of a concern. Your neighbors thank you. Now, what ammo to use...

A great thread started by TGace

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20137


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## OULobo (Apr 13, 2005)

Is it one of the Maverick "home defense" guns?  They are the more economical line of guns made my Mossberg, and marketed to people just like N'gale. I think there are only 2 models, a security model (6 or 8 shot) and a field model. I never got fire one, so I wonder about the quality.


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## searcher (Apr 13, 2005)

Looks like a nice Mossberg, am I right?   Good thing about a shotgun is that when you are under stress you can still hit your target.


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

If you are really concerned about "home defense" with a shotgun, you have to consider where you are going to store it (for accessibility) and what condition you are going to store it in. Unloaded? Fully loaded? Ammo tube loaded and chamber empty? Loading a pump action shotgun under stress is a tricky skill even for trained personnel. Evaluate and practice.


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## Tgace (Apr 13, 2005)

Next best thing to LE "tactical buckshot"...for civilian use. IMO

http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotshell/managedrecoil_buckshot.htm


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## KenpoTex (Apr 14, 2005)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Is it one of the Maverick "home defense" guns?  They are the more economical line of guns made my Mossberg, and marketed to people just like N'gale. I think there are only 2 models, a security model (6 or 8 shot) and a field model. I never got fire one, so I wonder about the quality.


Looks like it...After handling and shooting a couple, I'm not too impressed with them. IMNSHO, you get what you pay for.  On the other hand, a pump-shotgun is a pump-shotgun.  You can always upgrade later, better to have a cheap one than not at all.  
  Have fun and practice a lot


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## dearnis.com (Apr 14, 2005)

Sounds like a fine choice.  Make sure you work out the storage issues mentioned above, and spend some time shooting it so ou are comfortable.  Start out with light loads, and make certain you are mounting the gun to your shoulder correctly, or it will be a mite unpleasant.


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## hemi (May 26, 2005)

Looks like a may be a little late on this thread but I was going to recommend a Mossberg 590 12 Ga. Load it with 7 or 8 rounds of #7 bird shot and you have a very formidable weapon with good in home mobility. As for the recoil issue if your life was dependent on the weapon the kick of the gun will be that last thing on your mind.


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## Jerry (May 26, 2005)

> As for the recoil issue if your life was dependent on the weapon the kick of the gun will be that last thing on your mind.


 Unless you miss, in which case the amount the recoil has thrown you off-stance and off-target may be very signifigant... and you are more likely to miss because you are less likely to have been at the range practicing because the recoil makes it uncomfortable.

Of course, I suggest a more recoil-compensated stock if you are having trouble, or a lighter load on the shell.


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## OULobo (May 26, 2005)

Look what I picked up last weekend.


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## Cruentus (May 27, 2005)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Look what I picked up last weekend.



Nice!


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## hemi (May 27, 2005)

I 2nd that. Nice!  Now youre ready for the folding stock, flashlight, sling and laser site. Not easy to miss at close range and bird shot.


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## hwarang (May 28, 2005)

ak-47 gets the job done


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## evenflow1121 (May 28, 2005)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Look what I picked up last weekend.


I like that


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## 47MartialMan (May 29, 2005)

hwarang said:
			
		

> ak-47 gets the job done


provided you could get your hands on a actual model


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## 47MartialMan (May 29, 2005)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Look what I picked up last weekend.


It has been said by many, the shotgun is the best firearm for home defense. Now all you need to do is put on a pistol grip for compactibility.


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## KenpoTex (May 30, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> It has been said by many, the shotgun is the best firearm for home defense. Now all you need to do is put on a pistol grip for compactibility.


Since the AWB sunset, you can use the M-4 style stocks again.  IMO, these are about the best design.  I don't really care for the cheapie folding models and I don't particularly care for just a pistol grip because it's not as comfortable to shoot and your accuracy does suffer b/c you're shooting from the hip (yeah I know, it's a shotgun, but still...).


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## KenpoTex (May 30, 2005)

hwarang said:
			
		

> ak-47 gets the job done


 Can we say "overpenetration?"  Unless it was all I had, or I lived out in the country, I doubt that I'd recommend a center-fire rifle as a home defense weapon.  There's just too much chance that the bullet is going to "keep on truckin."


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## 47MartialMan (May 30, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Since the AWB sunset, you can use the M-4 style stocks again. IMO, these are about the best design. I don't really care for the cheapie folding models and I don't particularly care for just a pistol grip because it's not as comfortable to shoot and your accuracy does suffer b/c you're shooting from the hip (yeah I know, it's a shotgun, but still...).


AWB?

Pistol grip suffers accuracy? As if much accuracy is needed at in home close ranges?

From the hip? With a pistol grip, I had nevered had to fire from the hip, even with mag loads.

I can see where it will get bothersome at the range...but for the home? How many will it take to pump out the desired effect?


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## 47MartialMan (May 30, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Can we say "overpenetration?" Unless it was all I had, or I lived out in the country, I doubt that I'd recommend a center-fire rifle as a home defense weapon. There's just too much chance that the bullet is going to "keep on truckin."


Yes, those "AK-47 Lovers" geneuflect all of the time.

And you ask, most do not even know why it is called a AK-47....let *hwarang* post the answer without scanning the net.


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## KenpoTex (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> AWB?
> 
> Pistol grip suffers accuracy? As if much accuracy is needed at in home close ranges?
> 
> ...



No, at "in-home" ranges, accuracy isn't that much of a concern.  OTOH, I would definately want to keep as many rounds or pellets on the target as possible to avoid giving the neighbors or the kids a wakeup call.  

When I said "from the hip," I didn't mean literally holding the weapon at hip level.  I use that phrase to differentiate between aimed fire (even if you're just using the barrel, not the sights), and "pointed fire."  Again, at extreme close range, it's probably not an issue.  I've done quite a bit of shooting with a pistol-grip 12 gauge and have never had a problem, I just don't think pistol grips  are really all that great (note, I'm talking about pistol-grips, not pistol-grip stocks, I like those).  I guess what I'm saying is that if you like them and are proficient with a weapon outfitted in this manner, good for you .  I just don't think they increase the utility of the weapon to any significant degree when you still have to have an 18" barrel.

Just my $0.02

Now if I could have a pistol grip shotgun with a barrel that was only about 12" long (as seen in "The Hitman," or "The Punisher") that would be a different story.


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## KenpoTex (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Yes, those "AK-47 Lovers" geneuflect all of the time.
> 
> And you ask, most do not even know why it is called a AK-47....let *hwarang* post the answer without scanning the net.



Hint:  If we used the same classification for the rifle our military uses it'd be the AS-56.  (actually it'd be AS-55 if you _really_ want to get technical)


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> 1.) No, at "in-home" ranges, accuracy isn't that much of a concern. OTOH, I would definately want to keep as many rounds or pellets on the target as possible to avoid giving the neighbors or the kids a wakeup call.
> 
> 2.) Again, at extreme close range, it's probably not an issue. I've done quite a bit of shooting with a pistol-grip 12 gauge and have never had a problem,
> 
> ...


1.) The report is going to be a "wake-up call" anyway.

2.) So what's the problem with a pistol grip-look or function?

3.) Per number "2", it is asthetics or the "look" that bothers you.

4.) It does increase the compactiblity of the weapon from taking it out of _*stash n' acquire*_ to _*pump n' fire*_.

5.) Have to keep it "legal". When the LEOs come, you want to produce a "legal" weapon.


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## KenpoTex (May 31, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1.) The report is going to be a "wake-up call" anyway.
> 
> 2.) So what's the problem with a pistol grip-look or function?
> 
> ...


1. True, nobody's going to sleep through that 

2. No probs with the look, I just feel that by going with just a pistol grip you are compromising (to an extent) your ability to take targets at anything but close range (out to 15 yards)

3. Neither

4. Unless we're talking about the breacher for a SWAT team, I just don't see that it's that much of an issue.  We're talking about a gun that's pretty compact to begin with (assuming it has an 18" barrel).  I guess the question would be, "where do you store it?"  I have one that has a 22" barrel and a full stock but since I live alone, I just leave it standing behind the bedroom door.  If you had to stash it somewhere hidden/under something I can see the benefits.

5. I know, staying legal is a real pain in the A$$ sometimes.

I really don't have anything against them.  I have (or used to have) on somewhere that I'll occasionally put on to play with at the range.  And if I had to cram it into a small space then I might go back with one.  For the most part though, I prefer the full stock.


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## Jerry (May 31, 2005)

> It has been said by many, the shotgun is the best firearm for home defense. Now all you need to do is put on a pistol grip for compactibility.


 Why would a home defense weapon need to be compact? I think I'll keep the "big club" feature available.



> No, at "in-home" ranges, accuracy isn't that much of a concern.


 I'm just as concerned with things I want to avoid hitting (say pets or children). There's also the issue that darkness, sleepyness, surprise and inherent inaccuracy may combine... though that's what time at teh range is for.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> Why would a home defense weapon need to be compact?


Because In-home compactiness can have you store and produce it easier. Because you wont have to go around a bumoing into anything.

There are shot shells for pistols, but I had often wonder what effect will that have on barrel bore.


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## Shane Smith (May 31, 2005)

A good quality.38spl revolver loaded with 158 grain LSWHP's should serve you well.


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## 47MartialMan (May 31, 2005)

Shane Smith said:
			
		

> A good quality.38spl revolver loaded with 158 grain LSWHP's should serve you well.


Well, for close range, stopping power, hmmnnnn.


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## Nightingale (Aug 3, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> Looks like a nice Mossberg, am I right?   Good thing about a shotgun is that when you are under stress you can still hit your target.



It's actually a Winchester Defender 20 gauge.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 3, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Yes, those "AK-47 Lovers" geneuflect all of the time.
> 
> And you ask, most do not even know why it is called a AK-47....let *hwarang* post the answer without scanning the net.


Im an "AK-47 Lover", and I also know where it got its name, but mostly because I have done a lot of reading on the weapon, and seen the Biographyt channel sepecial on Kalashnikov, its creator.


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## andy (Aug 3, 2005)

At the risk of offending everyone (and I hope I do) a shotgun is a poor choice for home defense.especially if you are unfamiliar with firearms. you might hit something you don't want to. It was first called a scatter gun for a reason.

 IMO-the best defense is a 45. worked great from it's inception. all thats needed is a little range time.


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## kenpochad (Aug 4, 2005)

Nice


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## OULobo (Aug 4, 2005)

andy said:
			
		

> At the risk of offending everyone (and I hope I do) a shotgun is a poor choice for home defense.especially if you are unfamiliar with firearms. you might hit something you don't want to. It was first called a scatter gun for a reason.
> 
> IMO-the best defense is a 45. worked great from it's inception. all thats needed is a little range time.



I'll bite, the reason a shotgun is considered the best for home defense is exactly because it is a "scatter gun". It allows the user to shoot without much aiming in situations/environments likely for a home invasion, like low light and high stress confrontations. Also it is a very easy design to maintain and use. Finally, the stopping power is perfect for home defense. It has more than sufficient power to stop an intruder in his tracks, but the buckshot is very unlikely to pass though walls and possibly injure others. Confrontations like home defense lend themselves to the gross motors skills of very tense situations that require a "point and shoot" mentality. 

I'm not arguing that a good pistol of choice isn't good for home defense, but I will say that it is probably a good choice only for someone that has the time to really train to use it very confortably.

The .45 has good stopping power, but can pass through most walls with ease (albeit not as easily as a 9mm). The most common .45 design (1911) is also notoriously hard to maintain, especially for a novice or someone only interested in home protection. The reason the .45 has worked great since it's inception was that it is a well designed gun for the rigors of combat that a soldier experiences. There is also a reason they don't use them in the military as a sidearm anymore (low capacity, underpenetration).


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## andy (Aug 4, 2005)

Oulobo,

You have made some very good points. Unarguable in fact. I sometimes forget not everyone has the luxury of target practice for the fun of it,-or being raised around them.

 Actually on a side note--there is a 410 guage pistol revolver that might be good for home defense.


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## OULobo (Aug 4, 2005)

andy said:
			
		

> Oulobo,
> 
> You have made some very good points. Unarguable in fact. I sometimes forget not everyone has the luxury of target practice for the fun of it,-or being raised around them.
> 
> Actually on a side note--there is a 410 guage pistol revolver that might be good for home defense.



I know the feeling. I spend too much time and way too much money at the shop/range nowadays. I'd love to play with one of those 410s. It sounds like fun. Do you have any idea of what the recoil is like on one.


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## andy (Aug 4, 2005)

I have an idea. Unfortunately never have tried it tho.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 4, 2005)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I'll bite, the reason a shotgun is considered the best for home defense is exactly because it is a "scatter gun". It allows the user to shoot without much aiming in situations/environments likely for a home invasion, like low light and high stress confrontations. Also it is a very easy design to maintain and use. Finally, the stopping power is perfect for home defense. It has more than sufficient power to stop an intruder in his tracks, but the buckshot is very unlikely to pass though walls and possibly injure others. Confrontations like home defense lend themselves to the gross motors skills of very tense situations that require a "point and shoot" mentality.


The Box Of Truth dispelled this belief pretty well if I remember correctly.


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## Martial Tucker (Aug 4, 2005)

Here's my "alternative suggestion" to anyone who is uncomfortable with firearms, or has children in the home:

 Go to a local wilderness outfitter, and buy a can of "bear spray". It's like pepper spray on massive steroids. The container is about the size of a typical bottled water, but the spray is MUCH stronger than any pepper spray you will find designed to be used on dogs or humans. The spray has a range of up to 20 feet, and at that distance will cover a larger sized circle than a shotgun pattern. (Cleanup afterward will be less messy, too...) It will stop a charging grizzly, and will likely hospitalize a human.
 It's much easier to hit a target with than a handgun, easier to wield than a shotgun, and can be kept (as mine is) in the drawer of your nightstand. 

    Of course, the   main benefit is that it is non-lethal in the event of an accident, or case of mistaken identity.
 I have been around firearms since I was 6, but my wife is afraid of them, and I have 2 kids. If I had a firearm in the house, it would absolutely be locked up, but that kind of defeats the purpose in an emergency.

   Just a suggestion....


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## andy (Aug 4, 2005)

anything to keep guns out of the hands of 'civilians' right martial tucker?

sometimes lethal force is necessary--sad but true


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## Martial Tucker (Aug 4, 2005)

andy said:
			
		

> anything to keep guns out of the hands of 'civilians' right martial tucker?
> 
> sometimes lethal force is necessary--sad but true


 No, that's not what I said, or what I meant. If I lived alone, I would have a handgun. My wife is afraid of them, so she wouldn't use one if there was one in the house anyway. I also have kids. That mandates a locked gun. A locked gun is of little use if I wake up in the middle of the night and there's someone in my bedroom. I was just offering a reasonably effective alternative for people who for whatever reason don't want a firearm in the house. Philosophically, I am absolutely fine with civilians owning firearms, as long as they are trained for safety. 

  And, I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with the concept of lethal force.  

  Please don't imply an agenda where there is none.


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## KenpoTex (Aug 5, 2005)

OULobo said:
			
		

> There is also a reason they don't use them in the military as a sidearm anymore (low capacity, underpenetration).


 They don't _issue_ them as the standard sidearm anymore.  However, the 1911 is still the weapon of choice for many of the "high-speed" guys (Delta, Marine-recon, Special-forces, etc.).  In fact, I remember reading a while back that the Marine Corps contracted Kimber to provide them with several thousand 1911's.


As far as the shotgun vs. handgun thing...any of them will go through the average wall, it's the responsibility of the owner to be proficient with whatever weapon you choose so that you don't kill your next-door neighbors.


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## andy (Aug 5, 2005)

martial tucker,
I did not mean to cause offense, it was alittle off the cuff and perhaps a poorly thought out joke. you have my apology


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## Jerry (Aug 5, 2005)

> Of course, the main benefit is that it is non-lethal in the event of an accident, or case of mistaken identity.


 This sort of begs the question as to why this more powerful variant is not in use to stop people? Standard pepper-spray is not terribly effective against a determined aggressor.


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## Martial Tucker (Aug 5, 2005)

andy said:
			
		

> martial tucker,
> I did not mean to cause offense, it was alittle off the cuff and perhaps a poorly thought out joke. you have my apology


 No problem, Andy. We all say things now and then that don't come out quite the way we meant. 
   Your comment obviously hit a nerve with me because I do
 very much believe in civilians right to bear arms, and I think the laws these days favor the criminal way too much, so I didn't want my comments misconstrued as anti-firearm.

   Anyway, thanks for the note, and have a great day!


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## Martial Tucker (Aug 5, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> This sort of begs the question as to why this more powerful variant is not in use to stop people? Standard pepper-spray is not terribly effective against a determined aggressor.


 I honestly don't know. I'm not a LEO or a lawyer, but I' guessing that because the stuff is strong enough to incapacitate a human for several days, it's probably been deemed to be too strong for police to use. I would rather be "tasered" than sprayed with this stuff. The recovery is MUCH quicker with the Taser.

  I'm pretty sure that
 it is illegal to carry on your person for "human defense", even in states where pepper spray is allowed. Of course, in a home invasion, anything goes (at least in my house). The stuff is a bit expensive (about $40/bottle), and the standard container size is a bit large for carrying onthe street, but they actually make "quick draw holsters" for this stuff in "bear country" outfitters.
 Besides the strength of the "heat", the other value of the container is the range and "pattern" of the spray itself. I maintain that in a stressful situation, and at relatively short range 5-20 feet, it is easier for a typical civilian to hit a target effectively with the spray than with a handgun, and quicker than a shotgun. Certainly not as "final" as the effect of the firearm, but pretty darn effective, and, as was my point originally, "reversible" if a mistake is made.

   However, if you're trained and comfortable with a firearm, I'm all for it....


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