# A "lost" technique?



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 30, 2016)

Hi guys



Do you recognize the technique in the illustration?



Bruce Lee is using this technique in Way of the Dragon but I don’t know of_ gongfu _styles which still use this technique.

The Chinese says:



(Right): stirring-water-looking-for-fish hand loses. *撥水求魚手敗  *



(Left): Falling to the ground, intersecting scissors, wins!* 落地交剪勝*





Happy New Year!


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2016)

Why do you think it is lost?


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## Dudi Nisan (Dec 30, 2016)

Hi Flying Crane

As I said, Bruce Lee is using this technique in Way of the Dragon. But I never saw anyone still teaching/practicing it.

do you know of any style which officially teaches it?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2016)

Dudi Nisan said:


> Hi Flying Crane
> 
> As I said, Bruce Lee is using this technique in Way of the Dragon. But I never saw anyone still teaching/practicing it.
> 
> do you know of any style which officially teaches it?


Depends on how it is applied.  As a leg sissors it is pretty common, we did it in Tracy kenpo and in capoeira we did it a lot.

As a hook with one foot and kick the knee with the other variation, that too is pretty common as a useful tech if you have fallen and are fending off an attacker who is trying to get in on you.  I would think that most systems that work on solutions to that kind of scenario would have some version of this.

I guess i can't name a specific system that I know has this formally, but it is familiar enough that I didn't blink twice over it.


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## Dudi Nisan (Dec 30, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> we did it in Tracy kenpo and in capoeira we did it a lot



It is interesting to know that in kenpo and capoeira this technique is still used.

But, I apologize,  I should have been more specific.

This illustration is from a Chinese-Ryukyuan martial arts manual. Which mean that it was once taught in Chinese martial arts. But it seems that it is rarely taught today in Chinese martial arts(maybe it is taught in karate, I don't know).

So I'll rephrase my question: do you know of any Chinese styles which teach this technique?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2016)

Dudi Nisan said:


> It is interesting to know that in kenpo and capoeira this technique is still used.
> 
> But, I apologize,  I should have been more specific.
> 
> ...


I've not specifically seen it in a formalized curriculum for a Chinese system, but there is a lot I've not seen.  So, it's hard to say.


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## KangTsai (Dec 30, 2016)

Nope. It's a prominent takedown technique from the 'open guard' position in whatever art. It's done by pushing the hip while hooking the knees or grabbing the ankle.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2016)

I had this technique in my "24 Chinese kicks" book since I was young. It will work better if you can hold on one of your opponent's arms to force him to lean forward and hard for him to escape. It's similar to BJJ jump guard or pull guard.






It's mainly trained in the Chinese  地躺 (Di Tang) style.


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## Midnight-shadow (Dec 30, 2016)

We have this technique in our Gou Quan (dog style ground fighting) repertoire. Dog style is a bit weird in that it focuses more on leg and foot techniques to subdue an opponent rather than most other ground fighting disciplines that focus on the arms and body.

Gou Quan is the sister art of Fujian White Crane which we practice since White Crane lacks any form of ground fighting in its system.


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## Dudi Nisan (Dec 30, 2016)

wow! amazing information.

It's good to know people still practice Dog Fist. It looks very, very interesting!












Thanks!


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## Steve (Dec 30, 2016)

The lost de la riva guard technique.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 31, 2016)

I've also seen the technique shown in Systema demos.

Grappling arts like BJJ and Sambo have techniques which work along similar concepts but are optimized to provide more leverage and control than the version depicted in the illustration.


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## Dudi Nisan (Dec 31, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Grappling arts like BJJ and Sambo have techniques which work along similar concepts but are optimized to provide more leverage and control than the version depicted in the illustration



Is it functional? easy to use?


As for_ gongfu_, are there any other styles (aside from Dog Fist) which use the scissors-legs?


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2016)

Steve said:


> The lost de la riva guard technique.



I did ask once why we dont do the old self defence knee hook thingy.  Because there is no rule saying we can't.

Something to do with the positioning bring able to be passed.  And so you wind up just getting smashed.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2016)

Dudi Nisan said:


> Is it functional? easy to use?
> 
> 
> As for_ gongfu_, are there any other styles (aside from Dog Fist) which use the scissors-legs?


more functional but it takes some training.  It is not as intuitive.

There is a whole new fun set of mechanics when it comes to dealing with a striker from your back. Fun set of mechanics for the striker as well.






If you pay close attention. The guys without the gloves take better positions for striking when they are in the stand up position and the guys with the gloves are on their backs.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 1, 2017)

Dudi Nisan said:


> Is it functional? easy to use?



Do you mean the BJJ/Sambo/Judo versions or the version from the illustration you posted?

The versions from the grappling styles are very functional and not that hard to learn. The version from your picture is low-percentage against someone who knows what they are doing.



drop bear said:


> more functional but it takes some training.  It is not as intuitive.
> 
> There is a whole new fun set of mechanics when it comes to dealing with a striker from your back. Fun set of mechanics for the striker as well.
> 
> ...



The Jiu-jitsu practitioners demonstrating defense against standing opponents in that video are very high-level guys and were playing a pretty sophisticated game (although they slipped in the occasional basic move). I have beginners start out with a simpler approach.


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## Dudi Nisan (Jan 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you pay close attention. The guys without the gloves take better positions for striking when they are in the stand up position and the guys with the gloves are on their backs.



Thanks for this pointer! It's very important.



Tony Dismukes said:


> The version from your picture is low-percentage against someone who knows what they are doing.



Could you explain why it'd be a low-percentage tactic?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 2, 2017)

Dudi Nisan said:


> Could you explain why it'd be a low-percentage tactic?


1) For someone who knows what they are doing it's not too hard to stuff the sweep and then pass to a dominant position.
2) If you do succeed with the sweep, you end up in pretty much a neutral position and it's a scramble to see who can get to a dominant position first.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 2, 2017)

Dudi Nisan said:


> Could you explain why it'd be a low-percentage tactic?


Assuming we are still talking about the "scissor kick". This distance is important. If your opponent moves back just 3 inch, the technique will fail. This is why this technique will work better when a clinch is established. When a "hook" is established between your body and your opponent's body, when he moves back, he will pull your body with him.


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## drop bear (Jan 2, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> 1) For someone who knows what they are doing it's not too hard to stuff the sweep and then pass to a dominant position.
> 2) If you do succeed with the sweep, you end up in pretty much a neutral position and it's a scramble to see who can get to a dominant position first.



And if OP. looks at my video anybody with half a brain enters into that position with their knees bent,hips forward and head up. 

The other guy has to be doing a lot of stuff fundamentally wrong for that move to work.


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## DanT (Jan 12, 2017)

In my humble opinion, it doesn't seem that effective of a technique to me for the following reasons:

-being able to wrap both your legs around one of the opponents legs while in live combat on your back doesn't seem to have enough leverage to trip the opponent up to get him to fall.

-crossing one leg over like that seems to provide the opponent with an opportunity to take your back.

Has anyone applied this in sparring or self defence?


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## DanT (Jan 12, 2017)

In my humble opinion, it doesn't seem that effective of a technique to me for the following reasons:

-being able to wrap both your legs around one of the opponents legs while in live combat on your back doesn't seem to have enough leverage to trip the opponent up to get him to fall.

-crossing one leg over like that seems to provide the opponent with an opportunity to take your back.

Has anyone applied this in sparring or self defence?


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 12, 2017)

DanT said:


> In my humble opinion, it doesn't seem that effective of a technique to me for the following reasons:
> 
> -being able to wrap both your legs around one of the opponents legs while in live combat on your back doesn't seem to have enough leverage to trip the opponent up to get him to fall.
> 
> ...



When you perform this technique you aren't fully on your back, but on your side. Once your legs are in position you roll onto your front and as long as your legs are in the proper position, your opponent will roll with you onto their front and their leg will be trapped inside yours. In a real fight I would never willingly drop to the ground to perform this technique, but if I get knocked down it can be a good way of recovering from a potentially bad situation.






The second variant (the "back" variation) is the one I would recommend the most, as it puts you in a position where your opponent can't strike back as well as allowing you to pin their leg with your whole body after you take them down. As you can see in the video, you aren't really tripping your opponent, but instead using the connection you have with them to roll them into a compromising position.


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## DanT (Jan 12, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> When you perform this technique you aren't fully on your back, but on your side. Once your legs are in position you roll onto your front and as long as your legs are in the proper position, your opponent will roll with you onto their front and their leg will be trapped inside yours. In a real fight I would never willingly drop to the ground to perform this technique, but if I get knocked down it can be a good way of recovering from a potentially bad situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually like it much more now that I've seen that video, it looks more practical than what I was playing through in my head. I guess like any technique there's a time and place for it. Thanks for the vid, I might start looking a bit more into this technique now.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 12, 2017)

DanT said:


> In my humble opinion, it doesn't seem that effective of a technique to me for the following reasons:
> 
> -being able to wrap both your legs around one of the opponents legs while in live combat on your back doesn't seem to have enough leverage to trip the opponent up to get him to fall.
> 
> ...


It gets used in the very active dynamics of the capoeira roda.  I've used it myself, as well as had is successfully used on me, numerous times.  The entry and set of the technique needs to be fast and authoritative, or you will miss it.  Once, I didn't land it quite how it was intended, and I basically knocked out the other person.  The person I was playing against tried to evade when she realized what I was doing, and it resulted in the heel of my foot driving into her maxilla.  She was incapacitated, tho not fully unconscious, but took a few minutes to come back to life.  She said it felt like her teeth were on fire, the nerve that serves the teeth in the upper jaw got heavily smacked.  I did honestly feel bad, it was a friendly game and I wasn't trying to injure her.  That can happen in a lively roda when te energy gets high.

But yeah, it works if you know how to approach it.


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## DanT (Jan 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> It gets used in the very active dynamics of the capoeira roda.  I've used it myself, as well as had is successfully used on me, numerous times.  The entry and set of the technique needs to be fast and authoritative, or you will miss it.  Once, I didn't land it quite how it was intended, and I basically knocked out the other person.  The person I was playing against tried to evade when she realized what I was doing, and it resulted in the heel of my foot driving into her maxilla.  She was incapacitated, tho not fully unconscious, but took a few minutes to come back to life.  She said it felt like her teeth were on fire, the nerve that serves the teeth in the upper jaw got heavily smacked.  I did honestly feel bad, it was a friendly game and I wasn't trying to injure her.  That can happen in a lively roda when te energy gets high.
> 
> But yeah, it works if you know how to approach it.


Yeah I see what you mean about needing to be authoritative with it, thanks for the input. Ouch, that musta hurt like a bit**.


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## JR 137 (Jan 19, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> When you perform this technique you aren't fully on your back, but on your side. Once your legs are in position you roll onto your front and as long as your legs are in the proper position, your opponent will roll with you onto their front and their leg will be trapped inside yours. In a real fight I would never willingly drop to the ground to perform this technique, but if I get knocked down it can be a good way of recovering from a potentially bad situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In my system, we use the second variant (as you called it) as one of our standardized self defenses.  But... on our way into the scissors, we throw a side kick to the outside of the knee while we're on the ground.  After the scissors, we roll and roundhouse the back of the head.  Hard to describe without video, and may not sound too effective, but having it done to you is another matter.  After the student gets the standardized way of doing it pretty well, we'll play around with variations like in the video.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> In my humble opinion, it doesn't seem that effective of a technique to me for the following reasons:
> 
> -being able to wrap both your legs around one of the opponents legs while in live combat on your back doesn't seem to have enough leverage to trip the opponent up to get him to fall.
> 
> ...


I'll give you another time it was used in a more or less "live" environment. In NGA, we do "attack lines" (I've seen the like elsewhere under other names), where one person is on the mats, and the rest of the school takes turns attacking them. On black belts, pretty much any attack is fair. I had an advanced student who walked behind me (we don't turn to them, this is to practice some "surprise" attacks). He grabbed my pant legs and yanked my feet out from under me. By the time my front fall hit the ground, I had shifted my legs and was in position for this technique. He hit harder than I did.

Not the most likely attack, but it shows one place where this can come into play. I might have the same opening if someone shoved me down from behind without warning, and I also show this as a defense if you find yourself on the ground in other situations.


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## DanT (Jan 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'll give you another time it was used in a more or less "live" environment. In NGA, we do "attack lines" (I've seen the like elsewhere under other names), where one person is on the mats, and the rest of the school takes turns attacking them. On black belts, pretty much any attack is fair. I had an advanced student who walked behind me (we don't turn to them, this is to practice some "surprise" attacks). He grabbed my pant legs and yanked my feet out from under me. By the time my front fall hit the ground, I had shifted my legs and was in position for this technique. He hit harder than I did.
> 
> Not the most likely attack, but it shows one place where this can come into play. I might have the same opening if someone shoved me down from behind without warning, and I also show this as a defense if you find yourself on the ground in other situations.


Thanks for the input! Seems like a good example.


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