# New X-kan?



## MrFunnieman (Mar 12, 2006)

Anyone heard of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu?  I was surfing the net and came across this site. www.jizaikan.com/default.htm 

I find it interesting he has combined elements of Aikido with Ninjutsu.  It's really up my ally. 

Any thoughts?

MrFunnieman


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## Tengu6 (Mar 12, 2006)

They are X-SKH, not X-Kan. Absolutely rediculous IMO. I know one of the guys and he is a good guy, he recently broke from the Quest Center thing and passed up the opportunity to go Bujinkan. Why on earth would anyone do that? How far from the source do they want to get?

Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (Mar 13, 2006)

their founder never even got up to the level of full instrutor in Bujinkan before starting his own style of ninjutsu.

Sorry folks. I have jumped up and down on people calling what Bussey does ninjutsu on this point for too long to change my tune now.

I wish him well in what he does. But I do not think he is all that qualified to even know the difference between dakentaijutsu and ninjutsu.


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## MrFunnieman (Mar 13, 2006)

Like I have said in other posts, I have been leaning towards Aikido... so when I saw this I was curious about how he has tied the movement of the two together.

Don, I saw that he was only a Yondan, but from what I understand he has been studying BBT since the 1980s.  I was thinking he lost interest in pursuing rank, but maintained his training? I have recently read posts were rank wasn't a major consideration for BBT practioners.  I wasn't sure if his rank reflected his skill level. :idunno: 

Markk, I kinda got the impression that they were originally affiliated with BBT, teamed with Hayes, then had a falling out (big surprise)  



			
				Tengu6 said:
			
		

> How far from the source do they want to get?


 
I guess it depends on one's intentions.  He's not really claiming to be affiliated with BBT.  I am tempted to get a DVD to see what the movements are like.  I am sure it won't look like what's coming out of Japan.

To be honest, I am depressed by the fact there in a mountain of information pertaining to BBT and chances are I won't see all of it.  I have read other posts about how only six of the ryuha are primarily taught and there are Japanese seniors who still have not seen everything. I don't plan on any lengthy stays in Japan anytime soon.  I love the philosophy behind BBT, but find Aikido less daunting, but akin to BBT on some levels.  That's why the combination appealed to me.


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## MartialIntent (Mar 13, 2006)

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Like I have said in other posts, I have been leaning towards Aikido... so when I saw this I was curious about how he has tied the movement of the two together.
> 
> Don, I saw that he was only a Yondan, but from what I understand he has been studying BBT since the 1980s. I was thinking he lost interest in pursuing rank, but maintained his training? I have recently read posts were rank wasn't a major consideration for BBT practioners. I wasn't sure if his rank reflected his skill level. :idunno:
> 
> ...


I often wonder why instructors feel the need to merge arts. I believe many are riding roughshod through the arts on the backs of their egotistical streaks and I can't help but think that some instructors who attempt to amalgamate two arts have frankly, insufficient expertise in either to carry on the pure traditions. I think ultimately this is to the detriment of both of the merged artforms.

I agree that there are manifold similarities between the physical techniques of the Bujinkan and Aikido [after all, how many methods of applying wristlockare can there be?] but I think the philosophies are at odds - Aikido being the art of peace leaving the attacker unharmed, whereas true ninjutsu will follow through ensuring the job's done. I wonder how this guy has reconciled these fundimental differences?

I think the greatest comparisons between the two arts might be drawn from the application of the likes of Shinden Fudo Ryu [the similarity depending of course upon how it's been taught] but I still have to say, personally I'm not a fan of mixing and matching as I think it leads to eventual erosion of the arts in their pure forms as they were indended when devised and formulated.

Good luck though...

Respects!


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## Tengu6 (Mar 13, 2006)

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Markk, I kinda got the impression that they were originally affiliated with BBT, teamed with Hayes, then had a falling out (big surprise)


 
When I see people split from an organizaton (or two) and form a new one like that I can't help but think they couldnt hack it in either one. As if they can't handle being accountable for thier skills, or lack of them.

I could be wrong, but...



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> I love the philosophy behind BBT, but find Aikido less daunting, but akin to BBT on some levels. That's why the combination appealed to me.


 
I would suggest looking into Aikido, at a dojo that stricly does Aikido. There is nothing wrong with feeling more comfortable in another martial art, just be weary of off-shoot stlyes. 

Just my opinion,
Markk Bush


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## Kreth (Mar 13, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> just be weary of off-shoot stlyes.


I suppose we're all weary of would-be grandmasters, but I think you meant *wary*. :uhyeah:


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## Tengu6 (Mar 13, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I suppose we're all weary of would-be grandmasters, but I think you meant *wary*. :uhyeah:


 
Indeed I did, however both are true! Hey, I thought Don's job was being the English teacher.

Markk Bush


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## lalom (Mar 13, 2006)

The founder Tom Maienza seems to be the founder.  Ranked 5th dan in To-shin Do and 4th in Bujinkan Budo.  Of course I wasn't there to see what "went down" so as to cause him leaving Mr. Hayes' organization, so I can only speculate.  The feeling I get, of which I hope I'm wrong, is that this guy got hungry to see his name propogated, resulting in him trying to be the next superstar.  Too bad since he's a nice guy.  Not that he's not now, but just to see something like this transpire...


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## Tengu6 (Mar 13, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Of course I wasn't there to see what "went down" so as to cause him leaving Mr. Hayes' organization, so I can only speculate. The feeling I get, of which I hope I'm wrong, is that this guy got hungry to see his name propogated, resulting in him trying to be the next superstar.


 
I can only speculate as well but I think it went something like this........150 students multiplied by $120/month, minus FRANCHISE fees to SKH equals.........then the Doctor slapped the shiny butt of the baby that is Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu.

Then a meeting was called to come up with some really cool names to call each other and design a patch.

But I am only speculating.

Markk Bush


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## lalom (Mar 13, 2006)

Yeah something like that... LOL  Looking at the patch, it sure does resemble one from another organization.  I can't seem to put my finger on it though.  Here they are:  

https://www.jizaikan.com:52606/MyOf...lt.aspx?orgId=12606&category=1171&item=104688 

https://www.jizaikan.com:52606/MyOf...lt.aspx?orgId=12606&category=1171&item=104690


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## Fallen Ninja (Mar 13, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Yeah something like that... LOL  Looking at the patch, it sure does resemble one from another organization.  I can't seem to put my finger on it though.  Here they are:
> 
> https://www.jizaikan.com:52606/MyOffice/StoreOnline/default.aspx?orgId=12606&category=1171&item=104688
> 
> https://www.jizaikan.com:52606/MyOffice/StoreOnline/default.aspx?orgId=12606&category=1171&item=104690


Thats funny... man those patches look very nice. I wonder if it was hard to think up the design?

:ninja:


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## Cryozombie (Mar 13, 2006)

Guys

Lets remember that agree or disagree with what they are doing, we arent here to bash them.


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## MrFunnieman (Mar 13, 2006)

There's a lot to chew on.   I see where everyone is coming from.  I am leaning towards Aikido at this point.  

As long as we are speculating... maybe his intention was to preserve a connection to BBT?  It looks as though his Warrior notebooks and DVDs contain a lot of BBT material.  

I would be interested to watch him move, or someone with a deeper depth of understanding in BBT watch him move.  If he's got skills, then it might not be that bad.  He may have been training for the last 20 years and is now ready to step out of the shadows and teach what he has learned the last two decades  :idunno: 

 :btg: 

Mrfunnieman


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## lalom (Mar 13, 2006)

Actually in his defense, I have seen Mr. Maienza move.  Of course I am no qualified practitioner, or teacher for that matter, but he does look pretty sharp to me.  He also comes out in the various To-Shin Do DVD curriculum by An-Shu Hayes.  I remember seeing him demonstrate some hanbojutsu stuff.

On the other hand, I seriously doubt his intention is to preserve his connection to BBT being that he has integrated Aiki Do into his art of Jizaikan.  He also seems to have more of an influence of American Jujitsu from looking further into his dojo.  In any case, I wish him the best at his new endeavor.


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## Don Roley (Mar 15, 2006)

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Don, I saw that he was only a Yondan, but from what I understand he has been studying BBT since the 1980s.  I was thinking he lost interest in pursuing rank, but maintained his training?



I know people that stay at certain ranks do to a lack of interest in the matter. But looking at this guys resume he seems to like promoting himself. It does not strike me as the bio of a guy who does not care what others think of him.

The easiest explination for me is that maybe he started training in the 80s, but not as much or as regular as we may think. Seminars and such maybe. And once he gained fourth dan, he never went  to Hatsumi and got the fifth dan test.

And if he really cared about ninjutsu, he should be going to the best practicioners of it. That means Hatsumi. He likes the name ninjutsu enough to use it, but not enough to go to the best practicioner I know of. It just does not strike me as the acts of a serious student.

The kamae I saw on that page is one I would not want to be seen doing here in Japan. I have seen worse, but I try to be better.

I would suggest that you go to a straight aikido school and try them out. Them maybe with a few years under your belt of that you might be able to see them with better understanding. You may like him. Or you may like pure aikido better.


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## Eireannach (Mar 15, 2006)

"agree that there are manifold similarities between the physical techniques of the Bujinkan and Aikido"

I keep seeing this on the internet and would love to know what people are talking about.


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## lalom (Mar 15, 2006)

Eireannach said:
			
		

> "agree that there are manifold similarities between the physical techniques of the Bujinkan and Aikido"
> 
> I keep seeing this on the internet and would love to know what people are talking about.


 
Probably makes for a new thread.


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## Aiki Lee (Jul 18, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> their founder never even got up to the level of full instrutor in Bujinkan before starting his own style of ninjutsu.
> 
> Sorry folks. I have jumped up and down on people calling what Bussey does ninjutsu on this point for too long to change my tune now.
> 
> I wish him well in what he does. But I do not think he is all that qualified to even know the difference between dakentaijutsu and ninjutsu.


 


Listen well. You do not know this man, but I do. I am a student of Jizaikan Aki-Ninjutsu, and before you go continue to talk about something you don't know about let me explain a few things.

Maienza-dono left the Bujinkan, because they seemed to have taken the "ninja" out of ninjutsu. To-Shin-Do kind of did the same thing too.
In order to not seem like serial killers or warlocks to the community, the organizations left out many of the important ninjutsus training methods such as several overlooked koto-ryu scrolls.
Many of the so called "martial artists" in the Bujinkan and To-Shin-do systems demonstrated very poor mastery skills. This does not mean that they are bad systems, just that somewhere someone got lazy and stopped making sure that the quality was good. So, Maienza-dono refused to get further ranking in these systems, because they set almost no standards.

My teacher continued his training, but did not recieve ranking. He knows what he is doing, and Jizaikan Aki-Ninjutsu is the best martial art I have ever taken. It is combat ready. It demands a commitment to excellence.


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## Aiki Lee (Jul 18, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I know people that stay at certain ranks do to a lack of interest in the matter. But looking at this guys resume he seems to like promoting himself. It does not strike me as the bio of a guy who does not care what others think of him.
> 
> The easiest explination for me is that maybe he started training in the 80s, but not as much or as regular as we may think. Seminars and such maybe. And once he gained fourth dan, he never went to Hatsumi and got the fifth dan test.
> 
> ...


 

Let me break down your comments in sections that coordinate to your paragraphs.

1. There must be some promoting, since he makes a living off teaching martial arts. It is not pointless "Hey look how great I am!" promotion. It shows people his credentials, which are outstanding. There is a difference in not careing what people think of you, and wanting people to know that your not some random guy teaching false ninjutsu.

2. Again, you do not know this man. Maienza-dono has trained constantly since the 80s. You do not get seven blackbelts in a martial art by taking time off. And remember that three of those blackbelts are master level. And you make it sound like he was lazy not getting his 5th dan from Hatsumi-dono. Would you pay thousands of dollars to go to a foreign country to get an honorary title that doesn't mean anything?

3. Are you implying here that no one other than Hatsumi-dono can teach ninjutsu? Does that mean anyone who studied under Hayes-dono doesn't know anything about ninjutsu? If you cared to know, Maienza-dono trained under Master Bo Munthe, one of Hatsumi's greatest students. So why reinvent the wheel and go back to the beginning when, you have a perfectly good source to learn from?

4. Ah the Kamae. Remember the pictures are just pictures. You don't sit in a kamae, it is only a momentary thing. Also, since I don't know what kamae you are referring to, you may have stumbled across the Jizaikan forward posture which is a like a modern jumonji no kamae. This is a more practical fighting posture than some of the traditional kamae since we don't live in an ancient feudal world where everyone wears eighty pounds of armor.


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## Aiki Lee (Jul 18, 2006)

Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> Thats funny... man those patches look very nice. I wonder if it was hard to think up the design?
> 
> :ninja:


 
How is it funny? The patch says Jizaikan. Its the name of the style. Why should it be flashy? Were the ninja of yore flashy? Stop mocking my teacher's patches. You sound like a fool.


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## Don Roley (Jul 19, 2006)

Himura Kenshin said:
			
		

> Listen well. You do not know this man, but I do. I am a student of Jizaikan Aki-Ninjutsu, and before you go continue to talk about something you don't know about let me explain a few things.



Before you go much further, you should listen well to what I am about to say.

You have come in here saying that we do not have the right to state our opinions about the matter because we do not know this guy personally. Well, you have made the statement that Hatsumi has taken the ninjutsu out of the Bujinkan and I doubt you personally know him. Where are the facts to back up what you say? How the heck do you know what real ninjutsu is anyway?

The story you tell sounds like a weird comic book in many ways. Don't try using the word "dono" to try to impress us with your Japanese ability. The term is not appropriate in this situation and is rather dated. We are not talking about Japanese feudal lords. 

And so Maienza left the Bujinkan because there was not enough ninjutsu in it anymore. Se where the hell did he get more ninjutsu training? Some of Hatsumi's students every so often? Gee, that makes sense. Don't train with Hatsumi because he won't teach ninjutsu but go to the students of Hatsumi who may know more than him.  

Oh and those missing Koto ryu scrolls... Talk to Kizaru. He probably has forgotten more about the Koto ryu than Maienza probably ever will learn.

Your story for the excuse why Maienza did not get fifth dan does not hold water. If it was a case of being right now then traveling to Japan might be more than he was willing to do. But if he trained since the 80s there would have been loads of tai kais he could have gone to if he had been training regularly as you insist and taken the fifth dan test there.

And yes, he wants to call what he does ninjutsu but does not even want to study the art long enough to get a teaching certificate in a legitimate ninjutsu style. He has set himself up as a grandmaster and essentially ended his training. Well, for me, I respect those that keep trying to increase their knowledge by going to any and all training they can from a person that knows more than them. Hatsumi went to his teacher until he died. I can't think highly of anyone that takes a few years, thinks they know it all and stops that process of learning under another teacher like that.

And that is what I feel, that is what I will say and there is nothing you can do to shut me up. I have the right to have a negative opinion and it about the president of the United States, the Prime Minister of England and anyone French. What makes you think your group gets a free ride just because you belong to a few orginizations that get together to wear silly uniforms and call each other master? You don't like the fact that I don't think your teacher has enough training, tough! I came here to Japan to train over a decade ago after training with an American instructor and there is still new insights I find under my teacher's direction _every week_ so you are not going to make me accept that your teacher would not learn something by training with Hatsumi or another teacher. Might as well accept that fact and respect our right to not hold your teacher up as a good example.

Oh, welcome to martialtalk. Enjoy your stay.


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## Kreth (Jul 19, 2006)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth/Jeff Velten
-MT Senior Moderator


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## Aiki Lee (Jul 19, 2006)

What the heck do I know of ninjutsu? Not everything, I admit that. I do know enough to know that Maienza-dono's training is ninjutsu, and you missunderstood what I said about Hatsumi-dono. It's not that he didn't teach historical ninjutsu, but he did not enforce many of his students to master it, and so they would get lazy and sloppy. Not everyone is like this, mind you, but enough were for my teacher to decide that further ranking in the system is unneccessary.

By the way, I use the term "dono" to give my teacher (and anyone else) the respect that you are robbing from him. I do not use it as a gesture of servitude.
He lived with his instructor for years, trained everyday, and learned everyday. Munthe-sensei is above 5th dan in the Bunjinkan system, so if it bothers you that he didn't have proper training, believe me he did. After that he moved to a location where he could train daily with Hayes-dono. He trained every day with him for over four years. So as you can see, he has exceptional training in ninjutsus and is obviously qualified to teach.

Oh and when you say this, "Oh and those missing Koto ryu scrolls... Talk to Kizaru. He probably has forgotten more about the Koto ryu than Maienza probably ever will learn." You have just made a blanketly rude statement. I have not met Kizaru, you have not met my sensei. So there is no way for either of us to judge who knows more. Please think before you type.

Again, Just because Miaenza-dono refuses to take ranking, does not mean that he stopped his training. He kept learning more from many ninjutsus instructors, he just never got a new title. Does Hayes-dono count as an instructor, because he did spend quite a lot of time with him if you can recall.
Miaenza-dono has never stopped his training. He still visits with Munthe-sensei whenever he can. My teacher has been training in Ninjutsus since 1979 consistently. He has never stopped learning, he is by no means finished with his training, no true martial artist ever is.

I commend you for your determination to head out to Japan and learn ninjutsu, but just because my teacher doesn't live there, doesn't mean he has no idea what he is doing. And say whatever you want about political people, but leave my friends out of your insulting rants.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 19, 2006)

Himura Kenshin said:
			
		

> Master Bo Munthe, one of Hatsumi's greatest students.


 
I'm not saying you're lying, but I do believe you're demonstrating severe carelessness in your handling of the truth.


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## ginshun (Jul 19, 2006)

Himura Kenshin, 

A word to the wise,  the "if your not training in Japan, or under somebody who regularly goes to Japan, then your training sucks" attitude  pretty much par for the course around here.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 19, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> Himura Kenshin,
> 
> A word to the wise,  the "if your not training in Japan, or under somebody who regularly goes to Japan, then your training sucks" attitude  pretty much par for the course around here.


While I sort of agree with that sentiment, I wouldn't put it so harshly.:asian:  I would simply say that people who are serious about their Bujinkan training should endeavor to train in Japan with the Shihan and Soke at some point in their training and continue to do so regularly, other times, they should make every effort to train with those that do.

It is kind of like the elementary school exercise where the teacher whispers to one student "many apples are red" and they are to pass it around and the last kid is to tell the teacher what was told and it comes out "My mom drives an SUV".  The number of people between the source and the student makes a huge difference in what is being taught.

Just my opinions on this...


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## rutherford (Jul 19, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I'm not saying you're lying, but I do believe you're demonstrating severe carelessness in your handling of the truth.


 

Going back to thread title, would Ninpo Goshinjutsu Mu Te Jinen Ryu be a new X-kan?


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## Cryozombie (Jul 19, 2006)

Himura, 

Let me ask you a few questions if you don't mind... unlike the traditionallists here who only seem to want to bash, I am actually interested in knowing more about your art...

Who did Maienza learn his Ninjutsu from, and what Ryu(s) is it?  How long did he train after leaving the Bujinkan?  Who did he learn the missing Koto Ryu scrolls from, and what has been taken out?  How does Jizaikan compare in it's ninjutsu to what the Bujinkan does, and what makes the ninjutsu elements of the Jizaikan better, as you claimed?

I'm confused also... maybe you can clear somthing up, I think I misunderstood an earlier post... you said he has 7 blackbelts in an art... did you mean 7th dan in Ninjutsu, or is it blackbelts in several arts?  And also you said he refuses to take ranks, so how did he get 7 blackbelts?  Also, is he or isnt he ranked 5th dan in the 'kan?  Insiders in the 'kan who would have access to that information straight from the source say no, but you said he does... sorry, all this rank confusion and contradictory statements is making my head spin.

One last thing, and don't take this the wrong way, it's really meant to be constructive help dealing with the members of this forum... Here is a quote from your earlier post:



> the so called "martial artists" in the Bujinkan and To-Shin-do systems demonstrated very poor mastery skills. This does not mean that they are bad systems, just that somewhere someone got lazy and stopped making sure that the quality was good.


 
This post insulted 95% of the ninjutsu community of Martial Talk, and the Headmaster of their organization... that's NOT a good way to come on the board, make friends, be taken seriously, or change anyones mind.  VERY unninja-like.


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## Don Roley (Jul 19, 2006)

Ah, the web site is back up and something just clicked.

Rank means nothing in the Bujinkan. That is no secret. It is the reason given as to why the founder never went for any rank above fourth. Because the rank is not important, just the training, eh?

And yet.....

The old site made sure to list the fact that he had made fourth dan. Rank means nothing and he does not want to associate with it, yet he makes mention of his rank on his site.

The latest version spends a lot of time going over sour grapes. He spends a lot of time complaining about how rank means nothing in the Bujinkan instead of just not talking about it like folks like Kreth and others. Oh, but there was this little tidbit.



> In 1988 He was sponsored to take his Godan 5th degree test with DR. Hatsumi.



At that point in the time-line, there is no more mention of him training with Hatsumi. I see now.

1- Guy takes fifth dan test with Hatsumi.

2- Guy leaves Bujinkan with fourth dan.

3- No mention of training with Hatsumi after #1.

Hey, I was not there but it seems pretty clear to me what happened. :whip: 

Listen to Nimravus about Bo Munthe. You talking about scrolls being taken out kind of made more sense when you mentioned him. You really do not know that these scrolls were supposably taught, right? And you are pretty much relying on the word of......? Well, I think I can say that there probably are no scrolls that have been dropped from Koto ryu by Hatsumi.

Oh, and "Himura"... when someone who speaks and reads Japanese gives you advice about the language it is wise to listen instead of trying to argue. _-Tono/-dono_ is not used in polite, modern Japanese. It is an old form used in the days of the feudal lords to refer to them. It is only used in a couple of highly formal ceremonial circumstances in the modern day. Your use of it in this conversation would come off as arrogent and rude to a speaker of Japanese. There is a whole lot of things in polite use of Japanese outside of vocabulary and grammer. Trying to out do the Japanese at being Japanese, getting it wrong and then arguing instead of correcting yourself does not look good from where I sit.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 19, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh, and "Himura"... when someone who speaks and reads Japanese gives you advice about the language it is wise to listen instead of trying to argue. _-Tono/-dono_ is not used in polite, modern Japanese. It is an old form used in the days of the feudal lords to refer to them. It is only used in a couple of highly formal ceremonial circumstances in the modern day. Your use of it in this conversation would come off as arrogent and rude to a speaker of Japanese. There is a whole lot of things in polite use of Japanese outside of vocabulary and grammer. Trying to out do the Japanese at being Japanese, getting it wrong and then arguing instead of correcting yourself does not look good from where I sit.


 
Cmon Don, cut the guy some slack... he is obviously a big Rurouni Kenshin fan, since Himura Kenshin is the main char in the series, and its common for anime to use those outdatted silly titles... you see a lot of self proclaimed "otaku" (who clearly have no concept of what an insult the word actually is or they wouldnt refer to themselves as such) speaking this "fanboy japanese"... 

I'm trying to get some serious answers about his art, and you guys jumping on him isn't gonna help ME, thank you very much.


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## ginshun (Jul 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> While I sort of agree with that sentiment, I wouldn't put it so harshly.:asian: I would simply say that people who are serious about their Bujinkan training should endeavor to train in Japan with the Shihan and Soke at some point in their training and continue to do so regularly, other times, they should make every effort to train with those that do.
> 
> It is kind of like the elementary school exercise where the teacher whispers to one student "many apples are red" and they are to pass it around and the last kid is to tell the teacher what was told and it comes out "My mom drives an SUV". The number of people between the source and the student makes a huge difference in what is being taught.
> 
> Just my opinions on this...



You are probably right, I should have been more specific and said ""if your not training in Japan, or under somebody who regularly goes to Japan, then your *taijutsu / ninjutsu *training sucks"

That is probably a more accurate description of the prevailing attitude.  I do however think that there is a decent number of japanophiles around here that think that no westerner could ever teach you any kind of martial art as good as a japanese could, but they would never come right out and say it.  I won't say who, and its just my opinion, so take it for what its worth, but it is something to keep in mind.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 20, 2006)

To me, that sounds like an overly fatalistic way of saying that you're not interested in being all you can be within the Bujinkan.


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## ginshun (Jul 20, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> To me, that sounds like an overly fatalistic way of saying that you're not interested in being all you can be within the Bujinkan.



In general I could care less about the Bujinkan, so if that is how it sounds, then it sounds right.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't have anything specifically against them either, and if there were a Buj dojo within a hundred miles of me I would probably check it out at least, but as it is I am not at all conserned with whether or not what I learn is "authentic Bujinkan" martial arts.  Only with whether or not my training will make me safer.  From what I have gathered from here and other places on the net and in real life, there is no orgainization standards or any controls on whether or not any specific Buj dojo is going to offer good training or not, so they each have to be judged on an individual basis anyway.

I guess my only point is that a good amount of people here think that 

japan = good training
and 
no japan = bad training

I am not trying to  put any person or organization down, I just don't think that is the case.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 20, 2006)

If self defense is your primary goal, as opposed to getting proficient in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, then yes, I do recommend that you start looking elsewhere.


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## ginshun (Jul 20, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> If self defense is your primary goal, as opposed to getting proficient in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, then yes, I do recommend that you start looking elsewhere.



Just to be clear, I have never studied, and am not currently plannning on ever studying BBT.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 20, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> If self defense is your primary goal, as opposed to getting proficient in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, then yes, I do recommend that you start looking elsewhere.


 
Budo Taijutsu is a very effective self defense system.  I am amazed by how many people in it are in the military, police or in a line of work where they need personal protection skills.  Simply put if you train dilligently at it then in my opinion you will have some very good self defense skills!

I do not think that anyone here is saying that if you are not training in Japan that you are not getting good training.  There are so many fantastic instructors throughout the world now that you can surely get *great* training in almost every country.  However, if you wish to be current with Soke's budo then you need to make an effort to train with him or train with individuals that have recently trained with him.  

Individuals on this board who live and train in Japan are very important to everyone here because they can give us insight as to what is going on over there and clear up things that otherwise we would be just guessing at.  So if you are in Japan and training then we definately appreciate your input! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  That being said some of the very best practitioners that I have met live and reside outside of Japan.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Jul 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Budo Taijutsu is a very effective self defense system.  I am amazed by how many people in it are in the military, police or in a line of work where they need personal protection skills.  Simply put if you train dilligently at it then in my opinion you will have some very good self defense skills!


Very true, but just for SD purpose, BBT requires far more dedication and commitment than a basic course in SD.  I would think one would have to be in BBT for far more than just SD to ever become proficient at it.  (at least that is kinda what I thought he meant, of course I could be wrong )




			
				Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> I do not think that anyone here is saying that if you are not training in Japan that you are not getting good training.  There are so many fantastic instructors throughout the world now that you can surely get *great* training in almost every country.  However, if you wish to be current with Soke's budo then you need to make an effort to train with him or train with individuals that have recently trained with him.
> 
> Individuals on this board who live and train in Japan are very important to everyone here because they can give us insight as to what is going on over there and clear up things that otherwise we would be just guessing at.  So if you are in Japan and training then we definately appreciate your input!
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Very true, but just for SD purpose, BBT requires far more dedication and commitment than a basic course in SD. I would think one would have to be in BBT for far more than just SD to ever become proficient at it. (at least that is kinda what I thought he meant, of course I could be wrong )


 
No doubt that if you wish to be good at self defense with Budo Taijutsu you will definately need to train.  However, having said that how many people are really going to be able to apply what they learned from a three or four hour self defense course. (if that is what was meant)   I believe that in order to be good at self defense in general you need to practice it and practice quite a bit.  Apply the same amount of practice to Budo Taijutsu and I believe you can be very effective.  Just my o2. (for what it's worth)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Jul 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> However, having said that how many people are really going to be able to apply what they learned from a three or four hour self defense course. (if that is what was meant)   I believe that in order to be good at self defense in general you need to practice it and practice quite a bit.  Apply the same amount of practice to Budo Taijutsu and I believe you can be very effective.  Just my o2. (for what it's worth)



Very true!  I agree 100%.


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## Chuck Jackson (Jul 20, 2006)

Greetings all,
I have read through this thread a few times and, honestly, I find many of the posts quite disturbing.  My initial thoughts were not to respond to any of the posts here.  However, I believe some of the people posting on this forum genuinely want accurate information on Jizaikan.  For those of you who fall into this category, if it is possible you should really just visit one of the Jizaikan schools, listed on the jizaikan.com website, and speak directly with one of the instructors.  Or, better yet take an introductory class and get some first hand information.  I realize, with the limited number of schools at present,  this is not possible for some, so the following paragraphs will give my experience and opinion of Mr. Maienza and Jizaikan.

I am currenlty in my 28th year of martial arts training.  I started ninjutsu just over 5 years ago in To Shin Do.  At that time we held Bujinkan classes twice a week to hold to the older tradition.  The Bujinkan training, although interesting, did not fit with what I was looking for, this is not saying it is bad or ineffective, the Bujinkan just wasn't for me.  To Shin Do fit a little better, the narrower stances, or kamae, were easier for me to work with and fit my way of moving a little better.  I currently hold Shodan in To Shin Do.  Jizaikan is an even better fit for me than Bujinkan or To Shin Do.  

Now, I will not say anything bad about Mr. Hayes or Dr. Hatsumi.  I have not met or trained with either of them.  I do have a great deal of respect for them both and believe that anyone training under them has a great teacher.   I feel the same way about Mr. Maienza.  I have been fortunate enough to train under Mr. Maienza in To Shin Do and more recently in Jizaikan and have been to several seminars that Mr. Maienza has hosted.  I believe he is doing what he feels is best for himself, his students and ultimately ninjutsu itself.  If you really want to know about Mr. Maienza, then the best way to do that is to attend a seminar or visit his school and train with him.  

If anyone has specific questions about Jizaikan, I will do my best to answer them as completely and honestly as I can from my own experience.  If anyone wants to reply just to insult Mr. Maienza then I will simply ignore the post because I think it's silly to insult someone you've never met and it's not productive.


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## ginshun (Jul 20, 2006)

Chuck Jackson said:
			
		

> Greetings all,
> I have read through this thread a few times and, honestly, I find many of the posts quite disturbing. My initial thoughts were not to respond to any of the posts here. However, I believe some of the people posting on this forum genuinely want accurate information on Jizaikan. For those of you who fall into this category, if it is possible you should really just visit one of the Jizaikan schools, listed on the jizaikan.com website, and speak directly with one of the instructors. Or, better yet take an introductory class and get some first hand information. I realize, with the limited number of schools at present, this is not possible for some, so the following paragraphs will give my experience and opinion of Mr. Maienza and Jizaikan.
> 
> I am currenlty in my 28th year of martial arts training. I started ninjutsu just over 5 years ago in To Shin Do. At that time we held Bujinkan classes twice a week to hold to the older tradition. The Bujinkan training, although interesting, did not fit with what I was looking for, this is not saying it is bad or ineffective, the Bujinkan just wasn't for me. To Shin Do fit a little better, the narrower stances, or kamae, were easier for me to work with and fit my way of moving a little better. I currently hold Shodan in To Shin Do. Jizaikan is an even better fit for me than Bujinkan or To Shin Do.
> ...



Greetings!

Could you outline what you believe to be the major differences bewteen Jizaikan, Bujinkan and To-Shin-Do?  No need for a dissertation, just a few examples of what you believe are the main ways they differ.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 20, 2006)

Chuck Jackson said:
			
		

> the narrower stances, or kamae, were easier for me to work with and fit my way of moving a little better.


 
I used to think like that too. And whenever I got into a stressful situation, I could literally feel my legs straightening up and I lost 90 percent of my ability to generate power with my lower body.


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## Chuck Jackson (Jul 20, 2006)

From my experience, Bujinkan has very large, powerful movements.  To Shin Do changed the postures to be more narrow, similar to wester boxing,more upright.  Narrowing the postures allowed faster movement.  The core principles remained the same.  Jizaikan kept all of the core principles of it's predecessors, but emphasizes more circular movement and added more ground fighting.  This is what I have seen so far, but I have a lot more to learn so, the list of differences is incomplete.  

Chuck


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## Chuck Jackson (Jul 20, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I used to think like that too. And whenever I got into a stressful situation, I could literally feel my legs straightening up and I lost 90 percent of my ability to generate power with my lower body.


 

I'm told this happens a lot.  With me it's just the opposite, I tend to get lower and wider.  I'm a large person and used to do some bodybuilding and I think from that experience when stressed I treat everything like a power lift situation.  So, for me training a more narrow and upright system works better.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 20, 2006)

Chuck Jackson said:
			
		

> From my experience, Bujinkan has very large, powerful movements. To Shin Do changed the postures to be more narrow, similar to wester boxing,more upright. Narrowing the postures allowed faster movement. The core principles remained the same. Jizaikan kept all of the core principles of it's predecessors, but emphasizes more circular movement and added more ground fighting. This is what I have seen so far, but I have a lot more to learn so, the list of differences is incomplete.
> 
> Chuck


 
Chuck you obviously have not seen Hatsumi Soke move in the last 15 years or so.  His movement is very, very small and compact with a higher stance.  Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu allows the practitioner to move according to their needs at the moment.  Big, medium, small does not really matter, it is being in the right place at the right time, controlling the distance and your opponents physical and mental balance.  You probably would be very shocked if you went to Japan and saw how differantly people move in Budo Taijutsu.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Jul 20, 2006)

Hmmm... I have never seen Hatsumi Soke make large movements.   Also, I haven't seen Hatsumi Soke have to move real fast either.


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## Chuck Jackson (Jul 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Chuck you obviously have not seen Hatsumi Soke move in the last 15 years or so. His movement is very, very small and compact with a higher stance. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu allows the practitioner to move according to their needs at the moment. Big, medium, small does not really matter, it is being in the right place at the right time, controlling the distance and your opponents physical and mental balance. You probably would be very shocked if you went to Japan and saw how differantly people move in Budo Taijutsu.
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


 
Your are correct, I haven't seen Dr. Hatsumi except in video, and I haven't trained under him.  I was speaking from my experience with teachers that I have had here.  What I learned from them may have been their interpretation of what the Bujinkan has to offer, in which case I may not have gotten the true meaning of the art.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 20, 2006)

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Anyone heard of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu?  I was surfing the net and came across this site. www.jizaikan.com/default.htm
> 
> I find it interesting he has combined elements of Aikido with Ninjutsu.  It's really up my ally.
> 
> ...


To answer the original post...

No I hadn't heard of it until now. 

My thoughts and opinion...?  Well, it seems to be a system that someone has put together based on the collective amount of knowledge they have received and is now marketing it.  Much the same way that SKH did.  I wouldn't call it another Kan, just a new system someone pieced together.  

Would *I* take interest in it?  No.  If I were going to train in Ninjutsu, then I would prefer to get my training from as close to the source as I could possibly get.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 20, 2006)

Chuck Jackson said:
			
		

> I'm a large person and used to do some bodybuilding and I think from that experience when stressed I treat everything like a power lift situation. So, for me training a more narrow and upright system works better.


 
You don't even need to train with your strength, then.


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## Chuck Jackson (Jul 20, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> You don't even need to train with your strength, then.


 
That's correct.  My biggest challenge has been to move away from using a muscular attack.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 20, 2006)

Chuck Jackson said:
			
		

> That's correct. My biggest challenge has been to move away from using a muscular attack.


 
That will serve you well in the future as your body ages!  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Cryozombie (Jul 20, 2006)

Chuck Jackson said:
			
		

> From my experience, Bujinkan has very large, powerful movements. To Shin Do changed the postures to be more narrow, similar to wester boxing,more upright. Narrowing the postures allowed faster movement. The core principles remained the same. Jizaikan kept all of the core principles of it's predecessors, but emphasizes more circular movement and added more ground fighting. This is what I have seen so far, but I have a lot more to learn so, the list of differences is incomplete.
> 
> Chuck


 
Ah, interesting.  It sounds like this approach is designed to eliminate the middleman, so to speak, and get right to the heart of the movements.  In BBT, Ive been taught that the larger movements are to train the understanding of the body dynamics, and then as you become more and more proficienct you make them smaller and tighter... so it sounds like the Jizaikan and BBT have the same goal, just a different approach to getting there...


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## Don Roley (Jul 20, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> You are probably right, I should have been more specific and said ""if your not training in Japan, or under somebody who regularly goes to Japan, then your *taijutsu / ninjutsu *training sucks"
> 
> That is probably a more accurate description of the prevailing attitude.  I do however think that there is a decent number of japanophiles around here that think that no westerner could ever teach you any kind of martial art as good as a japanese could, but they would never come right out and say it.  I won't say who, and its just my opinion, so take it for what its worth, but it is something to keep in mind.



Oh, I think most people can tell that you are taking a swipe at me.

And the idea that your should be training in Japan, or with someone who does, is the advice of Hatsumi himself.

And I think it is just good advice if you want to get good. People that do not go those who know more than them tend to wander off in different directions. So if you train under someone who has not gone to Japan, and just does his own thing, then you are probably going to go off on another tangent. And if you want to learn ninjutsu, then that would be a bad thing.

And I really look for that type of thing in someone claiming to teach a _ninjutsu_ style they made up on their own. I can imagine someone coming up with a new art that is not ninjutsu that only did a short period of time with ninjutsu. But if someone want to call what they do ninjutsu, then I would kind of expect them to do their darndest to learn as much as they could from the most knowledgeable teachers they could. That would be Hatsumi or someone who has _menkyo Kaiden_ in Togakure ryu- not one of their students. 

Students are not bad, it is just that I feel that if you want to start your own style of ninjutsu you have to get as much knowledge as possible about the subject matter. I have seen groups like Tew ryu and Nindo ryu who want to present themselves as modern ninjutsu styles, but seem to do the bare minimum to try to qualify as having a link to ninjutsu in Japan. It has colored my view and made me suspicious of groups like Jizaikan, especially since they buried the mention that their founder was a fourth dan in Bujinkan but talk a lot about him going to a fifth dan test. They don't say he got a fifth dan, but I think most people would naturally assume that. That seems a bit deceptive to me.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 20, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> It has colored my view and made me suspicious of groups like Jizaikan, especially since they buried the mention that their founder was a fourth dan in Bujinkan but talk a lot about him going to a fifth dan test. They don't say he got a fifth dan, but I think most people would naturally assume that. That seems a bit deceptive to me.


 
Hey Don, I do have a question for you.  In the Bujinkan, by 4th or even 5th Dan, how much actual exposure to the Ninjutsu side of training do most people have?  I've seen some sword stuff from Luke, and a couple techniques that I was told come from Togakure-ryu... oh, and an old Video... but not much actual exposure beyond that.  How much is taught regularly?


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## Don Roley (Jul 20, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Hey Don, I do have a question for you.  In the Bujinkan, by 4th or even 5th Dan, how much actual exposure to the Ninjutsu side of training do most people have?  I've seen some sword stuff from Luke, and a couple techniques that I was told come from Togakure-ryu... oh, and an old Video... but not much actual exposure beyond that.  How much is taught regularly?



It depends. Some people know the kata from the Togakure ryu, some people do not or don't teach it. In my experience, we spend a lot more time with Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu than Togakure ryu because those arts are just so much broader in their potential. 

The kata for the Togakure ryu was not really taught until about the early 90s for the most part. You look at the stuff on the old tapes and you see Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu and Kukishinden ryu. I don't think I have ever seen a Togakure ryu kata done in the west before the tape from Quest came out. Obviously the Japanese shihan like Noguchi knew them. But you kind of need to know the Koto and Gyokko ryus before you get much into Togakure ryu and that is what they were trying to get across to visitors it seems.


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## Chuck Jackson (Jul 21, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> That will serve you well in the future as your body ages!
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


 
Unfortunately I seem to be aging faster than anyone else around me.  I've had a lot of knee and hip injuries in the past so I can no longer do any of the kicking arts that I enjoyed when I was younger.  The art I study now makes me feel like I can still be an effective fighter.

Chuck


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## Chuck Jackson (Jul 21, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ah, interesting. It sounds like this approach is designed to eliminate the middleman, so to speak, and get right to the heart of the movements. In BBT, Ive been taught that the larger movements are to train the understanding of the body dynamics, and then as you become more and more proficienct you make them smaller and tighter... so it sounds like the Jizaikan and BBT have the same goal, just a different approach to getting there...


 
This may be.  I know in Jizaikan we start with small, tight movements which works well for me.  The BBT training I did never progressed passed the big movements, but my teachers may not have felt I was ready for the smaller, tighter movements, so I never saw that side of the art.

Chuck


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## ginshun (Jul 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh, I think most people can tell that you are taking a swipe at me.
> 
> And the idea that your should be training in Japan, or with someone who does, is the advice of Hatsumi himself.
> 
> ...



It wasn't meant to be a shot at anybody specifically, but I think that you have confirmed that the opinion that I hold is in fact true.  Thank you for clearifiing it a bit more though.


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## Fu_Bag (Jul 25, 2006)

The idea of this new x-kan is interesting.  I don't think I'd start my own art and call any part of it "ninjutsu" though, if for no other reason than I'd get sick of my *** having to do a sakki avoidance of Don Roley's foot every five seconds, all day, everyday.  Aside from that, let the test of time begin.  

As a matter of fact, due to people insisting that training directly at the source is the only way to train, I went and found an instructor and we started our own style.  We call it "Poohjutsu" "The Way of Moving Like Pooh".  Actually, it's based around a programmable Winnie the Pooh toy that I've programmed to say 

"No Fu Bag-san!!!  Lower!!! You must lower your butt to the floor if you want to be one with Poohjutsu!!!", 

"When you can snatch the batteries from my butt, you will be ready to leave the temple", 

"Ah, Fu Bag-san... The way of Poohjutsu is not for everyone.  You must be a little bit crazy to put up with Pooh for the length of your life", 

"No, no, Fu Bag-san.  To become anything, you must learn to put up with Pooh, have natural movement, and never, ever give up!!!  Gambatte!!!"

p.s.  Oh yes, there WILL be a home study course available to select students......  Stay tuned....


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## ginshun (Jul 25, 2006)

Fu_Bag said:
			
		

> The idea of this new x-kan is interesting. I don't think I'd start my own art and call any part of it "ninjutsu" though, if for no other reason than I'd get sick of my *** having to do a sakki avoidance of Don Roley's foot every five seconds, all day, everyday. Aside from that, let the test of time begin.
> 
> As a matter of fact, due to people insisting that training directly at the source is the only way to train, I went and found an instructor and we started our own style. We call it "Poohjutsu" "The Way of Moving Like Pooh". Actually, it's based around a programmable Winnie the Pooh toy that I've programmed to say
> 
> ...



and for god sakes don't spar or do anything at full speed, that would be bad for your Poohjutsu.


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## Kreth (Jul 25, 2006)

Mesdames et messieurs, I believe this thread has run it's course, and will now be closed.


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