# Wing Chun Punch (foundational vs boundary)



## lansao (Aug 24, 2018)

Sharing a few thoughts on educational benefits of Wing Chun punching outside of the direct benefits it offers. In addition to being effective in terms of mobility, incorporating deflection, and generating decent power, the punch is also an excellent teaching instrument for beginners looking to learn how to draw a straight line to their target. 

I found it to be a great starting point for learning how to incorporate forearm/deltoid rotation.


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## ShortBridge (Aug 24, 2018)

Interesting ideas, thanks for sharing.


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## lansao (Aug 24, 2018)

A few additional thoughts/examples.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2018)

You can "crack" your opponent's right punching arm by using your

- right hand to push on his wrist joint to your left,
- left hand to push his elbow joint to your right.

The

- vertical fist has advantage that your elbow will not be cracked.
- horizontal fist has advantage of more power, but your elbow have risk to be cracked.

It's a trade off between speed/safety and power/risky.


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## lansao (Aug 25, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can "crack" your opponent's right punching arm by using your
> 
> - right hand to push on his wrist joint to your left,
> - left hand to push his elbow joint to your right.
> ...



Totally appreciate trade-offs. The point I’m trying to make is that direct application benefits of the punch aside, it’s also a helpful learning device for applying other elements.

In terms of cracking the elbow, isn’t a vertical fist also susceptible with upward and downward force?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> In terms of cracking the elbow, isn’t a vertical fist also susceptible with upward and downward force?


The vertical fist with downward elbow can get away from the elbow cracking. The WC Bong Shou that you expose your elbow joint to your opponent can also have the similar issue.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> A few additional thoughts/examples.



There are two reasons I don't like to rotate my punches over with bare fists.

Firstly, You don't get the low elbow power. The closer to the center of mass your elbow is at impact, the more mass you can drive it with. There are of course stylistic exceptions to the latter point, such as if your power comes from body rotation, IE swinging it like a bat on a circular line, but thats not too applicable to(most at least) styles of WC.

Secondly, it's much easier to break your hand or injure your wrist if you over rotate. This is not so much the case with boxing gloves of course, but that's a whole different animal.


Edit - after I posted a third reason occurred to me. Rising power. Two of the most valuable things I got from my WC were the concepts of rising power and sinking power. Sinking power is something that is more situational for me, but all of my straight shots draw from rising power, ie, slightly coiled legs and torso that combine with the hip rotation and arm movement to generate more force. If you rotate you break the line of power from the ground.

Ill whip up a quick video to demonstrate what I mean.

Second edit -


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## lansao (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> There are two reasons I don't like to rotate my punches over with bare fists.
> 
> Firstly, You don't get the low elbow power. The closer to the center of mass your elbow is at impact, the more mass you can drive it with. There are of course stylistic exceptions to the latter point, such as if your power comes from body rotation, IE swinging it like a bat on a circular line, but thats not too applicable to(most at least) styles of WC.
> 
> ...



Cool, interesting observations. Not why I punch with the elbow down, but good to see other people’s thoughts.

The point I mean to make here is that by starting with the wing chun punch, you learn a fundamental component of many other jabs and can pickup a large number of different styles quickly.

I don’t mean to argue mechanics so much as say we don’t have to limit ourselves to it, it opens us up to more possibilities.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Cool, interesting observations. Not why I punch with the elbow down, but good to see other people’s thoughts.
> 
> The point I mean to make here is that by starting with the wing chun punch, you learn a fundamental component of many other jabs and can pickup a large number of different styles quickly.
> 
> I don’t mean to argue mechanics so much as say we don’t have to limit ourselves to it, it opens us up to more possibilities.


Hmm. Just out of curiosity have you trained in other styles? WC is VERY different than say, boxing in where the power comes from. The WC 'power engine' isnt too adaptable to other techniques. It's like windows 10, completely proprietary 

This isn't to say you can't gain insight into other styles through WC, but I think to do that you need to train in those styles first, at least a little, to know what you are working with.


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## lansao (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Hmm. Just out of curiosity have you trained in other styles? WC is VERY different than say, boxing in where the power comes from. The WC 'power engine' isnt too adaptable to other techniques. It's like windows 10, completely proprietary
> 
> This isn't to say you can't gain insight into other styles through WC, but I think to do that you need to train in those styles first, at least a little, to know what you are working with.



Wing Chun was my first 

That said, I think we practice different versions of Wing Chun.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Wing Chun was my first
> 
> That said, I think we practice different versions of Wing Chun.


Oh we definitely do! I posted what my traditional SLT looks like in that other thread. My lineage comes through Sam Kwok, 2 steps off, and the Sifus down to me definitely added their own touches. What's your lineage?

Not to mention Ive been binning it all and rebuilding it from the ground up through MMA training and hard pressure testing. My WC doesn't really look like anyone's WC anymore, although the guys over at Alan Orr's school are doing something similar only on a much much higher level.

I'll tell you one thing though that ive learned, and this is applicable even if your only goal is to understand your own WC as well as you possibly can; Go try other things, even in small doses. You'll find yourself getting lightbulbs going off about your own WC you would otherwise never see.


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## lansao (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Wing Chun was my first
> 
> That said, I think we practice different versions of Wing Chun.



Realize you didn’t ask if I trained other arts before WC but if I’ve trained other arts. 

I’ve received instruction in boxing and Dutch Muay Thai subsequently. That’s in part where the connection came from. I haven’t practiced rising in any of them (sinking slightly come to think of it). Something like hip rotation of lead foot on ball from super stance with core rotation driving elbow out from the lat extending fully and retracting back from the strike.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Realize you didn’t ask if I trained other arts before WC but if I’ve trained other arts.
> 
> I’ve received instruction in boxing and Dutch Muay Thai subsequently. That’s in part where the connection came from. I haven’t practiced rising in any of them (sinking slightly come to think of it). Something like hip rotation of lead foot on ball from super stance with core rotation driving elbow out from the lat extending fully and retracting back from the strike.


Ahh. I guess I misunderstood.


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## lansao (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Oh we definitely do! I posted what my traditional SLT looks like in that other thread. My lineage comes through Sam Kwok, 2 steps off, and the Sifus down to me definitely added their own touches. What's your lineage?
> 
> Not to mention Ive been binning it all and rebuilding it from the ground up through MMA training and hard pressure testing. My WC doesn't really look like anyone's WC anymore, although the guys over at Alan Orr's school are doing something similar only on a much much higher level.
> 
> I'll tell you one thing though that ive learned, and this is applicable even if your only goal is to understand your own WC as well as you possibly can; Go try other things, even in small doses. You'll find yourself getting lightbulbs going off about your own WC you would otherwise never see.



I studied/study under Sifu John Wahnish, he studied with SiGung Philip Holder, he studied under William Cheung and Moy Yat but left both to start his school (Ying Gi Ga WC) in the states back in the 80s.

Excited to see them both next week.


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## lansao (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ahh. I guess I misunderstood.



I misunderstood first lol.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Realize you didn’t ask if I trained other arts before WC but if I’ve trained other arts.
> 
> I’ve received instruction in boxing and Dutch Muay Thai subsequently. That’s in part where the connection came from. I haven’t practiced rising in any of them (sinking slightly come to think of it). Something like hip rotation of lead foot on ball from super stance with core rotation driving elbow out from the lat extending fully and retracting back from the strike.


Ya, the only place I've gotten the concept of rising power was from my WC. boxing has a sort of 'rising power' too but the the uppercut is a whole different animal.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> I studied/study under Sifu John Wahnish, he studied with SiGung Philip Holder, he studied under William Cheung and Moy Yat but left both to start his school (Ying Gi Ga WC) in the states back in the 80s.
> 
> Excited to see them both next week.



Ya. I kinda thought you were a cheunger


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## lansao (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ya. I kinda thought you were a cheunger



I also take my coffee black.


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## lansao (Aug 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> I also take my coffee black.


Although I’ll say I’ve seen Cheung lineage stuff and it seems pretty different from what I’ve practice. 

SiGung really did modify the hell out of the art and took what he liked from both teachers.


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## lansao (Aug 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ya. I kinda thought you were a cheunger



I haven’t heard that term before but is that a deal breaker for you?

Really don’t put much stock in lineage but have learned a lot from the system I study, have a lot more to learn and practice, and have a lot of respect for my instructors.

They’ve also always said that what we study is different not better, and that we should never limit ourselves to what they teach. To go out and spar with people from different arts or I won’t trust my kung fu. They’ve also both treated the schools as passions and not direct sources of income.

Understand exactly what the reasons are for why we do the things we do. In the case of bare-knuckle punching, they shared three reasons which rung true to me initially and rung louder with time and practice:

- Lowered elbow creates an angle of deflection for simultaneous defense/attack.
- Bottom three knuckles align with the forearm “pipe” naturally and is well supported.
- Bottom three knuckles avoid injury to higher priority pointer finger knuckles.

I’ve since added the additional thoughts I’ve shared above plus a few other thoughts to support teaching but the core reasons they shared still resonate well with me.

I don’t dig very deeply into lineage because I’m not a historian and ultimately, outside of occasional helpful context for application intent behind movement, it doesn’t make me a better fighter.


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## Danny T (Aug 26, 2018)

lansao said:


> I don’t dig very deeply into lineage... outside of occasional helpful context for application intent behind movement, it doesn’t make me a better fighter.


Wish I could Like this times 10.


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## Martial D (Aug 26, 2018)

lansao said:


> I haven’t heard that term before but is that a deal breaker for you?


No not at all. I just see that style in some of the things you do.


> Really don’t put much stock in lineage but have learned a lot from the system I study


Me either.  Not convinced any one 'traditional' style of WC is objectively better than any other.


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## pdg (Aug 28, 2018)

lansao said:


> - Bottom three knuckles align with the forearm “pipe” naturally and is well supported.
> - Bottom three knuckles avoid injury to higher priority pointer finger knuckles.



Bottom two knuckles (ring and little) are connected to the weakest bones.

I've broken my ring metatarsal before with punching - I'll only aim to use index and middle knuckle now


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## lansao (Aug 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Bottom two knuckles (ring and little) are connected to the weakest bones.
> 
> I've broken my ring metatarsal before with punching - I'll only aim to use index and middle knuckle now


Sounds awful, must have sucked. Bare knuckle?


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## pdg (Aug 28, 2018)

lansao said:


> Sounds awful, must have sucked. Bare knuckle?



Yup, bare Knuckle, vertical fist, slightly upward hook (just over halfway between hook and uppercut) to jaw.

Must've hit my ring knuckle almost exclusively.

I'd never intentionally bring the smaller two knuckles into play now - bare knuckle (pads, boards, whatever) I'll be aiming for middle finger knuckle with a bias to index finger - same with gloves too.


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## lansao (Aug 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yup, bare Knuckle, vertical fist, slightly upward hook (just over halfway between hook and uppercut) to jaw.
> 
> Must've hit my ring knuckle almost exclusively.
> 
> I'd never intentionally bring the smaller two knuckles into play now - bare knuckle (pads, boards, whatever) I'll be aiming for middle finger knuckle with a bias to index finger - same with gloves too.



Ack, that sucks. Hope it’s healing/has healed alright for you.


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## pdg (Aug 28, 2018)

lansao said:


> Ack, that sucks. Hope it’s healing/has healed alright for you.



Should be healed by now - it happened 27 years ago


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## Cephalopod (Aug 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Bottom two knuckles (ring and little) are connected to the weakest bones.
> 
> I've broken my ring metatarsal before with punching - I'll only aim to use index and middle knuckle now



I would love to hear more personal accounts on this subject.

I train wing chun punches (connecting with the bottom 3 knuckles) regularly on the wall bag (filled with 1/4" ball bearings) understanding that this builds bone density and trains correct alignment of the metacarpals so that they don't get impacted obliquely. I have heard poor alignment can be a contributing factor to 'boxer's fracture'.

But, in truth, I have never belted full throttle into a hard target such as a jawbone or worse, an elbow. I tend to use an open hand when targeting the jaw and have been lucky enough not to badly connect my ungloved fist with other hard and knobby body parts.

So I don't have much real-time knowledge of how much of a beating my fist can withstand.
How about you folks?


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## pdg (Aug 28, 2018)

Cephalopod said:


> I would love to hear more personal accounts on this subject.
> 
> I train wing chun punches (connecting with the bottom 3 knuckles) regularly on the wall bag (filled with 1/4" ball bearings) understanding that this builds bone density and trains correct alignment of the metacarpals so that they don't get impacted obliquely. I have heard poor alignment can be a contributing factor to 'boxer's fracture'.
> 
> ...



I think a lot of it is how much you put in the punch to begin with.

Chain punching (or similar movements) just don't have the impact of a proper cross or hook so carry less risk in the first place.

I'll quite happily hit something hard (wooden board, bone) concentrating around my middle knuckle, but no way with the others.

I'll do a graphical representation in a minute


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## Poppity (Aug 29, 2018)

Cephalopod said:


> I would love to hear more personal accounts on this subject.
> 
> I train wing chun punches (connecting with the bottom 3 knuckles) regularly on the wall bag (filled with 1/4" ball bearings) understanding that this builds bone density and trains correct alignment of the metacarpals so that they don't get impacted obliquely. I have heard poor alignment can be a contributing factor to 'boxer's fracture'.
> 
> ...



About six months ago I was sparring with a fellow class mate in 4oz gloves and used my elbow to block a strike and his stike must have chipped something round my elbow as I could not lean on it at all for a few weeks and even now every now and then something catches and it hurts when leaned on.


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## Poppity (Aug 29, 2018)

His knuckles from a vertical strike were fine... Which was nice for him and a bit of karma for me.


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## DaveB (Aug 29, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Oh we definitely do! I posted what my traditional SLT looks like in that other thread. My lineage comes through Sam Kwok, 2 steps off, and the Sifus down to me definitely added their own touches. What's your lineage?
> 
> Not to mention Ive been binning it all and rebuilding it from the ground up through MMA training and hard pressure testing. My WC doesn't really look like anyone's WC anymore, although the guys over at Alan Orr's school are doing something similar only on a much much higher level.
> 
> I'll tell you one thing though that ive learned, and this is applicable even if your only goal is to understand your own WC as well as you possibly can; Go try other things, even in small doses. You'll find yourself getting lightbulbs going off about your own WC you would otherwise never see.



How is that going MD?

I'm especially curious how applicable you are finding chi sau in the new environment?


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## Eric_H (Aug 29, 2018)

lansao said:


> A few additional thoughts/examples.



Hi Lansao, while I think your point has some merit in that the WC punch can be used as a building block to both understand the system and then how and when break the rules, your demo is a bit off putting to me as it lacks basic body method. Is WC relatively new for you?


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## lansao (Aug 29, 2018)

Eric_H said:


> Hi Lansao, while I think your point has some merit in that the WC punch can be used as a building block to both understand the system and then how and when break the rules, your demo is a bit off putting to me as it lacks basic body method. Is WC relatively new for you?


Not new to me but weird to hear that. What body method aren't you seeing?


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## Martial D (Aug 29, 2018)

DaveB said:


> How is that going MD?
> 
> I'm especially curious how applicable you are finding chi sau in the new environment?


Chi Sau?  Just the sensitivity. I often get advantageous positions through hand fighting in a standing clinch or ground grappling I'd like to attribute to those years of doing chi sau, but I can't be totally sure I wouldn't be doing that anyway.

Mostly my WC has boiled down to striking and hand fighting, but most of all strategy and application.


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## DaveB (Aug 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Chi Sau?  Just the sensitivity. I often get advantageous positions through hand fighting in a standing clinch or ground grappling I'd like to attribute to those years of doing chi sau, but I can't be totally sure I wouldn't be doing that anyway.
> 
> Mostly my WC has boiled down to striking and hand fighting, but most of all strategy and application.



I never had a problem converting chi sau to sparring, but its usefulness seems to be a big bone of contention for some. 

I just found that once a point of contact was established it gave you a means of flowing straight into attacks, and for grappling it helped with gaining better position.

Similarly to what you're finding, forms based TMA are to me all about the strategy. Once you have that, everything else is just what fits the circumstances.


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## Cephalopod (Aug 30, 2018)

Snark said:


> About six months ago I was sparring with a fellow class mate in 4oz gloves and used my elbow to block a strike and his stike must have chipped something round my elbow as I could not lean on it at all for a few weeks and even now every now and then something catches and it hurts when leaned on.


 Damn, you would figure that the elbow could take more of a beating than a fist! Sounds like a microfracture maybe.


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## Eric_H (Aug 30, 2018)

lansao said:


> Not new to me but weird to hear that. What body method aren't you seeing?



Your punches look like they're mostly arm, I don't see any connection to the hips and torso.


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## lansao (Aug 30, 2018)

Eric_H said:


> Your punches look like they're mostly arm, I don't see any connection to the hips and torso.



So strange. I definitely tend to break out extension from rotation from step for educational purposes so maybe that’s where you’re not seeing it. Also, keep in mind we likely study different versions of Wing Chun so we may just have different takes on what that punch should look like.

Why don’t we discuss punch mechanics and my Wing Chun punch in a separate thread. Would love for you to share a video of your jab there as well. You can show me how your arm is connected to your torso/hips.


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## Martial D (Aug 30, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I never had a problem converting chi sau to sparring, but its usefulness seems to be a big bone of contention for some.
> 
> I just found that once a point of contact was established it gave you a means of flowing straight into attacks, and for grappling it helped with gaining better position.
> 
> Similarly to what you're finding, forms based TMA are to me all about the strategy. Once you have that, everything else is just what fits the circumstances.



Ehh, it's very possible we just move differently. Im very long(80 in reach), and like to keep people at the end of my strikes. When I am in the pocket my head is usually low and in your chest, or on your shoulder in a over under or double under. Entangling arms from a square position at that range just isn't something I have been able to make work.


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## DaveB (Aug 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ehh, it's very possible we just move differently. Im very long(80 in reach), and like to keep people at the end of my strikes. When I am in the pocket my head is usually low and in your chest, or on your shoulder in a over under or double under. Entangling arms from a square position at that range just isn't something I have been able to make work.



In full sparring it's less about entangling and more about bridging (if my chun terminology is correct).

Say you pull up a boxing style cover to block a punch, as his hand retracts chi sau for me is what let's my blocking hand follow his punching hand back, either hitting or trapping his retracted arm....
Or
Off the same block I roll my hand over to pull his extended punching arm as I counter strike over the top.

I can do the reverse off my strikes if he blocks me, turning the impact into a trap/clear to land more shots.

I use the skill to take myself from defending to attacking OR to keep the pressure on.

I think people get caught up in the endless trapping battles you get in training.

Each strike I am able to make as a result of sticking to him, should imo be the start of a striking combo/barrage with more trapping only necessary if you reach a natural end to your attack or he interrupts you and you need to regain initiative.


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## MxcnPhoenix (Aug 31, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Say you pull up a boxing style cover to block a punch, as his hand retracts chi sau for me is what let's my blocking hand follow his punching hand back, either hitting or trapping his retracted arm....
> Or
> Off the same block I roll my hand over to pull his extended punching arm as I counter strike over the top.



That's basically how I was taught the application of Chi Sau training works. When the opponent strikes you invite them in (via block or parry) establish a bridge (if you haven't already) and then escort them back out again (with a counter strike) as they retract to reset for their next strike or re-establish their guard. The application was similar in free sparring too.


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## Martial D (Aug 31, 2018)

MxcnPhoenix said:


> That's basically how I was taught the application of Chi Sau training works. When the opponent strikes you invite them in (via block or parry) establish a bridge (if you haven't already) and then escort them back out again (with a counter strike) as they retract to reset for their next strike or re-establish their guard. The application was similar in free sparring too.


Yes, that's the traditional strategy. I've found that distance isn't predictable enough to really make that work though. The fact that the transition to grappling can happen at any point complicates things even further.


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