# Snapping Twig, torque or counter-torque??



## True2Kenpo (Apr 11, 2003)

Fellow Kenpoists,

I just wanted to pose this question to everyone to see how they few the first move in Snapping Twig...  

When you step back with your left foot and execute the break or sprain on the elbow are you utilizing torque or counter-torque with the move?

Thanks in advance 

Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Roland (Apr 11, 2003)

...but it is not.



It is really back up mass!


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## Kirk (Apr 12, 2003)

I'm not qualified to say, but I'll take a guess.  Good post, I'm sure
I'll learn a lot.

My guess is that since you're stepping back to a right neutral
bow, and the right heel palm to the elbow is the major move
(which goes to the right), then it's torque.  

My notes tell me that my instructor feels that it's opposing forces,
since there's a right and left strike, simultaneously.

I know I'm probably wrong, but hopefully there's at least some
validity there. :asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Apr 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> *...but it is not.
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, the underlying power principle is Back Up Mass.:asian:


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 12, 2003)

I don't use the term counter torque so I'd be interested in a definition.

I'd call the arm break direct rotation and because the striking force is at a roughly 90 degree angle to my body motion I would say the principle force is torque.  All torque involves some backup mass  and in this case the weight of my hand and arm will be backup mass (but this is secondary).  The technique also involves backup mass to help straighten the opponents arm.

Over all the set up is back upmass (straighten the opponents arm) and then torque for the potential arm break.

As to the opposing forces this is backup massto pull backwards setting up an anotomic weakness and allowing the relatively weak torque of the elbow strike to potentially cause serious damage.

respectfully,

Jeff


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## True2Kenpo (Apr 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *I don't use the term counter torque so I'd be interested in a definition.
> 
> I'd call the arm break direct rotation...*



Jeff,

Hello sir!  How are you?

I do agree that both torque and what I am considering "counter-torque" to both be rotating forces.

I guess I am viewing torque as being the body moving in the same rotation as the block or strike.  And conversly counter-torque as being the body moving in the opposition rotation as the block of strike.

Take for example the second outward and the second downward block of Short Form One.  I view those two blocks as utilizing counter-torque.  With the first outward block the hips move with and in the same direction as the rotation to execute the block because one is facing twelve o'clock and must step and rotate towards 9 o'clock.  Where as, when you execute the second outward, one is already facing 9 o'clock, they just step through reverse and their hips move in the opposite direction of the block being executed.

So though I do agree that both are rotating forces, I guess I distiquish between the body moving in the same direction as the strike or block and the body moving in the opposite direction of the strike or block.

Anyway, please let me know what you think if this makes any sense 

I do wish you the best and hope that are paths cross again.  Good journey sir!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 12, 2003)

Josh,

That makes sense.  I think we are saying the same thing.

I call the power principle Torque.  When the shoulder moves in the same direction as the pelvis I call the movement "Rotation", and when the shoulders move in the opposite direction as the pelvis I call it "Counter rotation.

Thank you for such a nice clear explanation.  It is certainly clear why you have such an enthusiastic, well trained, talented and friendly group of students.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## True2Kenpo (Apr 12, 2003)

Jeff,

Thank you sir for your kind comments!!  It does mean a lot.  In return, I felt honored to have you guys out this past Feb.  You guys made the trek and I hope it was worth your time.  Next time, I hope you guys could stay for dinner.

On another note about the subject matter...  I wonder how many people term things differently, yet they all mean the same thing   It is nice to just try to understand each other and see a different perspective!

Again thank you sir!  Good journey.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## lonekimono (Apr 12, 2003)

someone has got to tell me how you can have backup mass without moving forward??
backup mass will not work if YOU ARE STEPPING AWAY,
you do the math.

                   yours in kenpo


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *someone has got to tell me how you can have backup mass without moving forward??
> backup mass will not work if YOU ARE STEPPING AWAY,
> you do the math.
> ...



In Lone Kimono, Snapping Twig and other techniques you anchor your opponents hand and step backwards.  Your bodies mass contributes to the force and straightens the opponents arm.  In effect your mass is pulling your opponent instead of pushing but it is still backup mass.

In Obscure Claws after the arm break you step forward whileyou do an offset sandwhich, L heelpalm to the chest, with simultaneous back knucke to the back of the head.  The power principle for the Heelpalm is torque as you  turn but the backknucke is driven by your step away and is backup mass in a pullng manner.

respectfully

Jeff


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## ikenpo (Apr 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *backup mass will not work if YOU ARE STEPPING AWAY,
> you do the math.
> 
> yours in kenpo *




What about striking serpent's head?

jb :asian:


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## lonekimono (Apr 12, 2003)

what about it?




             yours in kenpo


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## lonekimono (Apr 12, 2003)

hey kenpodoc if i'm understanding this right? what i think you are saying is that  it's the other guys mass you are talking about?
i hope so.



                           yours in kenpo





> if you know yourself,you know others.


 :asian:


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## FlashingDaggers (Apr 13, 2003)

We now have Reverse Backup mass huh


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## kenpo3631 (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *someone has got to tell me how you can have backup mass without moving forward??
> backup mass will not work if YOU ARE STEPPING AWAY,
> you do the math.
> ...



Back up mass is defined as you yourweight moving in line with you strike on a horizontal or vertical plane.:asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Back up mass is defined as you yourweight moving in line with you strike on a horizontal or vertical plane.:asian: *



It can be utilized moving forward or backwards.

Remember...for every move there is an opposite and reverse.:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 13, 2003)

I believe Lonekimono was refereing to the fact that if you and your strike are moving backwards, its not your mass the one backing up the strike, but the attacker's, I believe. 
Well, at least that's how it works in striking serpent's head...


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## kenpo3631 (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *I believe Lonekimono was refereing to the fact that if you and your strike are moving backwards, its not your mass the one backing up the strike, but the attacker's, I believe.
> Well, at least that's how it works in striking serpent's head... *



No it's not. You weight is *in line* with your strike. Your weapon is in line with your body. You should be moving your  _mass_ as one entity.:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *what about it?*



He's talking about the same thing as Blinding Sacrifice. Executing the double back knuckles to the kidney's while moving your body backwards. This is still back up mass it's just moving backwards.:asian:


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## ikenpo (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *He's talking about the same thing as Blinding Sacrifice. Executing the double back knuckles to the kidney's while moving your body backwards. This is still back up mass it's just moving backwards.:asian: *



Exactly...

jb


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## kenpo3631 (Apr 13, 2003)

Thanks for the back up guys...:asian:


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## True2Kenpo (Apr 13, 2003)

Fellow Kenpoists,

I think a lot of different perspectives are being brought up and it is very interesting to see how everyone views the techniques in different lights.

I would like to say though I do not agree that Snapping Twig utilizes Back-up Mass.  Rather I would say it utilizes torque and opposing forces.  I agree with Mr. Soares that Back-up Mass refers to your body moving in-line and with your strike or block as in Striking Serpent's Head and Blinding Sacrifice.

The reason the opponent is able to extend his arm is because we are stepping back giving us the range and distance to execute our strike.  I feel Back-up mass does not effect this first movement.

In anycase, I would like to hear more thoughts on this...  I hope possibly Mr. C or another senior could help out as well.

With respect,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Kirk (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *I don't use the term counter torque so I'd be interested in a definition.
> *




"Direct rotation torque turns your hips in the same direction as 
your block or strike.  Counter-rotation turns your hips the 
opposite direction of your movement.  Short Form One has 
instances of both.  It even shows the same block using both 
types. " * - Lee Wedlake Kenpo Karate 201*
 

So again, since the main strike is the elbow strike with the right
hand, and the hips move to the right while going into a right
neutral bow ... why is it not regular ol' rotational torque? 

Please understand I'm not arguing with any of you ... I'm 
providing what I've been told, and I'm interested in the other
ideas presented.


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *No it's not. You weight is in line with your strike. Your weapon is in line with your body. You should be moving your  mass as one entity.:asian: *



I didn't say otherwise. I just said that you're taking advantage of the attacker's mass and momentum... In spanish we call it "Fuerza prestada" , borrowed force, and not back up mass. (we were talking about striking serpent's head, yes?)
I think of back up mass more of a vector of force and the vector of mass adding to it by going in the same way. Maybe I'm messing up my explaination again.


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## Doc (Apr 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Exactly...
> 
> jb *


Right JB. A simple reminder to some that "Back Up Mass" doesn't have to be "behind" the weapon. The mass simply supports the strike and that may be horizontal, vertical, or a combination of the 2 in any direction.

"Snapping Twig" does indeed utilize "Back Up Mass" as well as "Torque," along with a "Bracing Angle," "Opposing Forces," "Angle of Deflection," "Negative Body Posture," "Aggressive Weight," etc.


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## jaybacca72 (Apr 14, 2003)

all the techniques or at least 98% of them include the principles doc was saying,you just have to know where to look for them just like everything else in kenpo. do the art long enough and the light bulbs start going off eventually with the help from the seniors of course to put you in the right direction.
later
jay:asian:


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## Doc (Apr 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jaybacca72 _
> *all the techniques or at least 98% of them include the principles doc was saying,you just have to know where to look for them just like everything else in kenpo. do the art long enough and the light bulbs start going off eventually with the help from the seniors of course to put you in the right direction.
> later
> jay:asian: *


Of course you're correct. Pick a principle, and it would be hard to find a technique that didn't have it.


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## M F (Apr 14, 2003)

> "Negative Body Posture," "Aggressive Weight,"



Doc,
Would you be able to explain these two principles, or point me in the direction of some writings that explain them?  I am trying to puzzle them out, and having a hard time of it.


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## Doc (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *I believe Lonekimono was refereing to the fact that if you and your strike are moving backwards, its not your mass the one backing up the strike, but the attacker's, I believe.
> Well, at least that's how it works in striking serpent's head... *



That is incorrect. The misunderstanding comes from the use of the word "back," and assuming it means behind. In human mechanics and physics that is not necessarily the case. 

Question: Does a body and fender tool called a "dent puller" have back up mass? And if it does, is it in front of or behind the dent. 

It pulls but still utilizes back up mass as a part of its basic mechanism in front of the action not behind it, much like "Striking Serphents Head.


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## Doc (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by M F _
> *Doc,
> Would you be able to explain these two principles, or point me in the direction of some writings that explain them?  I am trying to puzzle them out, and having a hard time of it. *



When an individual assumes a negative thought process it translates to a shift in posture that is aggressive and usually means weight committed to one side of the body. This action is a negative body posture because it makes the body susceptible to attack because nerve cavities respond and open as well, depending on the posture. This can be easily shown in simple techniques when formulated, and demonstrated properly.


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## kenpo3631 (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *That is incorrect. The misunderstanding comes from the use of the word "back," and assuming it means behind. In human mechanics and physics that is not necessarily the case.
> 
> Question: Does a body and fender tool called a "dent puller" have back up mass? And if it does, is it in front of or behind the dent.
> ...



Praise the Lord and pass the jelly! Thank you Mr. Chapel' , that is one of the best analogies I have read or heard in quite a while.:asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *I didn't say otherwise. I just said that you're taking advantage of the attacker's mass and momentum... In spanish we call it "Fuerza prestada" , borrowed force, and not back up mass. (we were talking about striking serpent's head, yes?)
> I think of back up mass more of a vector of force and the vector of mass adding to it by going in the same way. Maybe I'm messing up my explaination again. *



Apparently I was referring to Thrusting Prongs and not Striking Serpents Head. My fault and sorry for the misinterpretations. I have a problem with techniques names, as they haven't been taught to me. One of the instructors is just beginning to translate them.

By the way is that dent puller related to cars?


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## Doc (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Apparently I was referring to Thrusting Prongs and not Striking Serpents Head. My fault and sorry for the misinterpretations. I have a problem with techniques names, as they haven't been taught to me. One of the instructors is just beginning to translate them.
> 
> By the way is that dent puller related to cars? *


A simple dent puller is a long shaft (about 24 inches) with one end threaded so it may be "screwed" into metal. There is a heavy sliding weight on the shaft and a "stop" on the opposite end to contain the weight. Once attached to the "dent" the weight is used to "slam" it's mass against the stop to "pull" the metal toward you. Commonly used in auto body repair and, unfortunately as an auto theft tool to pull ignitions out as well.

A classic use of "Back Up Mass" in front. Thanks for the kind words.


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *A simple dent puller is a long shaft (about 24 inches) with one end threaded so it may be "screwed" into metal. There is a heavy sliding weight on the shaft and a "stop" on the opposite end to contain the weight. Once attached to the "dent" the weight is used to "slam" it's mass against the stop to "pull" the metal toward you. Commonly used in auto body repair and, unfortunately as an auto theft tool to pull ignitions out as well.
> 
> A classic use of "Back Up Mass" in front. Thanks for the kind words. *



I hope I get to see one in use sometime. Not in mar car, though   

Thanks for the explanation.


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## sumdumguy (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *That is incorrect. The misunderstanding comes from the use of the word "back," and assuming it means behind. In human mechanics and physics that is not necessarily the case.
> 
> Question: Does a body and fender tool called a "dent puller" have back up mass? And if it does, is it in front of or behind the dent.
> ...



Although this is true, the dent puller is directly connected to the dent via a rod and has an apendage to recieve the force of the mass of the slide hammer and transfer the energy to the dent. the weight is not behind the dent but is transferred as if it were. With a technique like snapping twig, the only connection is the grab or fulcrum for the use of a "wheel and axle" i.e. leverage coupled with torque, rotational force, bracing angles and so on.
Have a nice Day!!! :asian: :asian:


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## lonekimono (Apr 16, 2003)

hey guys why don't all of us get together and have a camp ?
that way we can put all of this stuff to bed.
what do you think??  
i know i'll be there will you??



  yours in kenpo





> what is the call of the wild??


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## sumdumguy (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonekimono _
> *hey guys why don't all of us get together and have a camp ?
> that way we can put all of this stuff to bed.
> what do you think??
> ...


Not sure what you mean by that but I'll be there with bells on!!
Yea Ha let's do it!!!

:asian: :asian: 
Have a nice Day


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## sumdumguy (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sumdumguy _
> *Although this is true, the dent puller is directly connected to the dent via a rod and has an apendage to recieve the force of the mass of the slide hammer and transfer the energy to the dent. the weight is not behind the dent but is transferred as if it were. With a technique like snapping twig, the only connection is the grab or fulcrum for the use of a "wheel and axle" i.e. leverage coupled with torque, rotational force, bracing angles and so on.
> Have a nice Day!!! :asian: :asian: *


I was not trying to negate what Doc was saying here, I was simply putting my two cents in on the intricacies of the technique.
There is applied back-up-mass I guess I should have mentioned that.... My apologies.
Have a nice Day:asian: :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by True2Kenpo _*
> Torque or Counter-torque?
> Respectfully,  Joshua Ryer
> *



What is counter torque?

I know there is torque..... but is there a reverse torque?  NO, only torque in the opposite direction.  So, what then is counter torque in this picture.  (not a good term in my opinion)  We must watch our terminology.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *Back up mass is defined as you yourweight moving in line with you strike on a horizontal or vertical plane.:asian:
> *



Not Diagonal as well?


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> Why is it not regular ol' rotational torque?
> *



It is.

 
:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _*
> back up mass definition.
> *



Allow me to add a little to the post.... "PBA" must also be present.

Moving your weight in line (forward or reverse) with your strike on a horizontal, vertical or diagonal plane, coupled with Proper Body Alignment automatically gives you "Back Up Mass".


:asian:


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## Doc (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *What is counter torque?
> 
> I know there is torque..... but is there a reverse torque?  NO, only torque in the opposite direction.  So, what then is counter torque in this picture.  (not a good term in my opinion)  We must watch our terminology.
> ...



Hey Bud, "counter torque" exists as well in physics. It's use in an anatomical sense is usually (but not exclusively) relegated to Control Manipulation where torque is applied in an opposing manner. In some instances you might apply torque to a lock for an example, and then you oppose that torque with a counter torque effort to enhance or create the desired effect.

In Newtonian Physics as applied in the automotive industry, when an auto internal combustion engine accelerates with "rotational torque", it also creates a "counter torque" action on whatever device or mechanism that is attempting to hold it in place. 

A "torsion Bar" commonly used in the suspension of some automobiles are twin bars that are "torqued" in opposing directions and the counter torque resistence is utilized to support the automobile.

Of course the besy example is the old "Indian Skin Burn" we used to do on each other in middle school. Grab a guy by the forearm with both hands and twist in opposite directions creating a torquing and counter torquing action simultaneously to create the skin stretching burning effect.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _*
> "counter torque" exists as well in physics.
> *



Where, what physics book, page ?  

I hear what you are saying..... torque IS possible in two different directions at the same time but they still are torque only in different directions not reverse torque.  

For that instance where you have torque working simultaneously but in opposite directions..... I guess you could call that counter torque..... but that is only defining that torque is working together but in opposite directions the way I see it.

:asian:


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## Doc (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Where, what physics book, page ?
> 
> I hear what you are saying..... torque IS possible in two different directions at the same time but they still are torque only in different directions not reverse torque.
> ...


Agreed, but torque and conter torque can only exist together and not independent of each other. And for sure I didn't use the term "reverse torque." Check your mail dude, I sent you something for your archives.


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