# Hands alive



## bcbernam777 (Nov 6, 2005)

I recently met up with a wing chun student from a certain school in my local area (nameless they shall be), now this individual has been studying over 4 years under the same school, we started of doing the Sui Lum Tao, then moved on to Chi Sau, he had no feet (i.e. stance), and no structure behind any of his techniques, he was tense, and unyielding in his defense and attack, this was the second time I had done Chi Sau with someone outside of Sifu's circle of students, and I was absolutly amazed that someone who has studied an art for that amount of time could have so little skill.....anyway that is an aside. The real purpose fo this thread is to highlight a point, during our interchange he asked me what I would do against a hook, Itold him to hit me, when he did I caught his arm with a fook Sau, you should have seen the look on his face, he said to me, "what was that?" I said "its a fook Sau" He had a blank look on his face, I then explained to him that in Wing Chun your techniques aren't fixed but are alive respondig where necassary, if my Fook Sau is needed I will use it, if my Bong Sau is needed I will use it. I find that there are not many students including some within Sifu's classes who seem to miss that. 

Is this something that others have noticed? and what are your thoughts on thsi subject?


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## ed-swckf (Nov 7, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> I recently met up with a wing chun student from a certain school in my local area (nameless they shall be), now this individual has been studying over 4 years under the same school, we started of doing the Sui Lum Tao, then moved on to Chi Sau, he had no feet (i.e. stance), and no structure behind any of his techniques, he was tense, and unyielding in his defense and attack, this was the second time I had done Chi Sau with someone outside of Sifu's circle of students, and I was absolutly amazed that someone who has studied an art for that amount of time could have so little skill.....anyway that is an aside. The real purpose fo this thread is to highlight a point, during our interchange he asked me what I would do against a hook, Itold him to hit me, when he did I caught his arm with a fook Sau, you should have seen the look on his face, he said to me, "what was that?" I said "its a fook Sau" He had a blank look on his face, I then explained to him that in Wing Chun your techniques aren't fixed but are alive respondig where necassary, if my Fook Sau is needed I will use it, if my Bong Sau is needed I will use it. I find that there are not many students including some within Sifu's classes who seem to miss that.
> 
> Is this something that others have noticed? and what are your thoughts on thsi subject?


 
how did you use the fook sau against the hook, i'm intrigued.


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 7, 2005)

Perform a fook sau, now maintain the structure and swing it outwards using only the shoulder as the hinge to move it, you should still have the same fook sau structure outside the centreline


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## ed-swckf (Nov 7, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Perform a fook sau, now maintain the structure and swing it outwards using only the shoulder as the hinge to move it, you should still have the same fook sau structure outside the centreline


 
so like an upturned tan sau, would you purposefully deploy that as a response to a hook or was that just what came up in the instant?


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## dmax999 (Nov 7, 2005)

Sad to say, I used to get upset when people on the internet claimed that WC was worthless. I knew different and couldn't understand why someone would think that. Then I started watching the clips posted as examples of bad WC, they had a point.

It seems that people with bad WC are more then willing to show off, tape themselves, post on the internet, etc. When I say bad, I mean really bad. Good WC guys are out there, just not bragging as much and so forth. WC also seems limited in MA tournaments as well, you can't really compete in forms competitions and expect to win. Light contact sparring rules are usually gimping you to the point of not bothering. So full contact is your only choice, and full contact sparring isn't for everyone. When I did WC, I never considered doing competitions at all, and I think most well run WC schools are the same. Maybe there are some tournaments suited to WC, but none I have heard about around my neck of the woods.

Seems the only people who realize how good WC is are those who are good at WC. Consider it a kung-fu "secret" that no one else wants to know about.


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 7, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> so like an upturned tan sau, would you purposefully deploy that as a response to a hook or was that just what came up in the instant?


 
Thats what came up in that instant, becuse I ahve absorbed the principle of live hands I didn't have to think it was an instant reaction, as long as the structure is in place then it is a fook sau, the good thing about itis that it can easily be converted into a diagonal palm or a Tan Sau utilising the Lan Sau energy


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 7, 2005)

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Sad to say, I used to get upset when people on the internet claimed that WC was worthless. I knew different and couldn't understand why someone would think that. Then I started watching the clips posted as examples of bad WC, they had a point.
> 
> It seems that people with bad WC are more then willing to show off, tape themselves, post on the internet, etc. When I say bad, I mean really bad. Good WC guys are out there, just not bragging as much and so forth. WC also seems limited in MA tournaments as well, you can't really compete in forms competitions and expect to win. Light contact sparring rules are usually gimping you to the point of not bothering. So full contact is your only choice, and full contact sparring isn't for everyone. When I did WC, I never considered doing competitions at all, and I think most well run WC schools are the same. Maybe there are some tournaments suited to WC, but none I have heard about around my neck of the woods.
> 
> Seems the only people who realize how good WC is are those who are good at WC. Consider it a kung-fu "secret" that no one else wants to know about.


 
i think part of the problem is that a lot of people doing Wing Chun cant see the moon beyond the pointing finger i.e.  the woods for the trees, my  belief is that many people look at Wing Chun from a technique orientated position rather than a principle based position, If a man understands the principle, he knows how to fish, but if he is focused on the techniques he relys on others to give hm the fish. Wing chun is a total absorbing of the principals that run the engine, it is only through absorbing the principles that we find our freedom within Wing Chun, as Sifu once said to me "dont think having no way which is a way, you must think to have a way which becomes no way"


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## ed-swckf (Nov 8, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> i think part of the problem is that a lot of people doing Wing Chun cant see the moon beyond the pointing finger i.e. the woods for the trees, my belief is that many people look at Wing Chun from a technique orientated position rather than a principle based position, If a man understands the principle, he knows how to fish, but if he is focused on the techniques he relys on others to give hm the fish. Wing chun is a total absorbing of the principals that run the engine, it is only through absorbing the principles that we find our freedom within Wing Chun, as Sifu once said to me "dont think having no way which is a way, you must think to have a way which becomes no way"


 
I love how you clarify an analogy by using another analogy!!


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## ed-swckf (Nov 8, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Thats what came up in that instant, becuse I ahve absorbed the principle of live hands I didn't have to think it was an instant reaction, as long as the structure is in place then it is a fook sau, the good thing about itis that it can easily be converted into a diagonal palm or a Tan Sau utilising the Lan Sau energy


 
you'd turn fook sau into tan using the energy of a lan sau,  We are talking about the same lan sau (bar arm) here right?  If so please explain.


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 8, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> you'd turn fook sau into tan using the energy of a lan sau, We are talking about the same lan sau (bar arm) here right? If so please explain.


 
Simple, the tan sau hand can be used but it is with the energy of a Lan sau. The focus of the energy in Wing Chun is not found in the hands, it is found in the shoulder, being the universal joint, the tan sau hand being the uptruned hand can be used with the Lan Sau energy, this is the basis of freedom in Wing chun, if it is easier think of it as an upside down lan sau.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 9, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Simple, the tan sau hand can be used but it is with the energy of a Lan sau. The focus of the energy in Wing Chun is not found in the hands, it is found in the shoulder, being the universal joint, the tan sau hand being the uptruned hand can be used with the Lan Sau energy, this is the basis of freedom in Wing chun, if it is easier think of it as an upside down lan sau.


 
Why is that lan sau energy specifically though?


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 10, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Why is that lan sau energy specifically though?


 
Because of the direction of the energy, each technique in Wing Chun has its own diredction in which the energy flows, this is seen basicly in SLT but takes on new dimension in CK via the use of two way force.


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## Solidman82 (Nov 10, 2005)

I really wish I remembered how all the "Sau's" translated into english. I'm completely lost. Does anyone know where there's a list of the translations?


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## ed-swckf (Nov 10, 2005)

Solidman82 said:
			
		

> I really wish I remembered how all the "Sau's" translated into english. I'm completely lost. Does anyone know where there's a list of the translations?


 
Just do a search for a wing chun glossary.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 10, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Because of the direction of the energy, each technique in Wing Chun has its own diredction in which the energy flows, this is seen basicly in SLT but takes on new dimension in CK via the use of two way force.


 
Ok so what is the difference between tan sau energy and lan sau enregy?and when you can use one energy with different hand shapes what makes the energy native to one particular shape?  Wing chun has a few different types of energy which are alomost completely interchangable between techniques, what type of energy are you talking about or is it a combination?


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## arnisador (Nov 10, 2005)

Here are a couple of hits for Wing Chun glossary:
http://members.aol.com/sidaijoey/glossary.html (list)
http://home.vtmuseum.org/terminology/glossary.php (searchable)


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## Solidman82 (Nov 10, 2005)

Thank you arnis.


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 11, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Ok so what is the difference between tan sau energy and lan sau enregy?and when you can use one energy with different hand shapes what makes the energy native to one particular shape? Wing chun has a few different types of energy which are alomost completely interchangable between techniques, what type of energy are you talking about or is it a combination?


 
The type of energy employed is the same energy it is simply the direction of that energy by utilising the hinge, i.e. the shoulder. It is part of the two way energy, with hand having its own "expresion" of that energy, e.g. the tan sau energy is utilised differently along the hinge than the lan sau energy, or the fook sau energy is utilised differently again from the who sau energy.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 12, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> The type of energy employed is the same energy it is simply the direction of that energy by utilising the hinge, i.e. the shoulder. It is part of the two way energy, with hand having its own "expresion" of that energy, e.g. the tan sau energy is utilised differently along the hinge than the lan sau energy, or the fook sau energy is utilised differently again from the who sau energy.


 
Unfortunately i either don't understand exactly what you are saying or i disagree.  Whilst i understand the structure of the shapes are different and thus will make different uses of ging feel different or be applied differently, i am of the opinion that all types of ging are interchangable and none is particularly native to one shape.


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 12, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Unfortunately i either don't understand exactly what you are saying or i disagree. Whilst i understand the structure of the shapes are different *and thus will make different uses of ging feel different or be applied differently*, i am of the opinion that all types of ging are interchangable and none is particularly native to one shape.


 
Actually we do agree you must have misundertood hwo i was coming across, all hands make use of the 2 way energy, but it is their expression (application that is different)


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## ed-swckf (Nov 12, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Actually we do agree you must have misundertood hwo i was coming across, all hands make use of the 2 way energy, but it is their expression (application that is different)


 
so its not an energy native of the lan sau, its an energy that can be used by different shapes for different results, what confused me is calling it lan sau energy when the shape was tan sau.


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## brothershaw (Nov 12, 2005)

Going backwards-
I understand what you mean about using the structure of the fook sau but moving the shoulder or body (i dont remember which) to put you in the position to stop the hook, however go bong sau would be better considering fook sau is really stronger moving towards your center/inner gate where as go bong is designed for an attack to your outer gate.
Yes you should be flexible in your wing chun but the different positions are designed to be structurally strong in specific ways.

Unless you meant passing the hook and  fooking it from the outside then doing doing a lan to trap or a fut sau to the throat or some other variation where the person hooked but you are now on their outside gate  and so on in which case the fook makes more sense to ME, 

This is not an attack but a discussion of ideas,


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 12, 2005)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> Going backwards-
> I understand what you mean about using the structure of the fook sau but moving the shoulder or body (i dont remember which) to put you in the position to stop the hook, however go bong sau would be better considering fook sau is really stronger moving towards your center/inner gate where as go bong is designed for an attack to your outer gate.
> Yes you should be flexible in your wing chun but the different positions are designed to be structurally strong in specific ways.
> 
> ...


 
The fook is a transition like all the techniques, however the purpose was not to use a fook because it was necessarally better but because if I used the fook in such a way, I knew the response that I would get from him as the fook was not the usual way, and I wanted to highlight the error of that way of thinking. Its like the story of a pesky restaurant owner who considered himself an expert in martial arts, who was bothering Wong Shun Leung with questions about "if I did this then what would you do, and if I did this what would you do" Wong man finally put his chopsticks down and said "I dont know what I would do why dont we go out side and see" at which point the restaurant owner excused himself.

the point is, this student through no fault of his own had been taught Wing Chun as a technique based art instead of a concept based art, and because of this was so focused on where the technique should be and shouldnt that there was no life in his hands, bare in mind that he had been studying for 6 years.


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## brothershaw (Nov 12, 2005)

Hmmm yes and no.
The different hand positions are transitional, and wing chun isnt based on techniques. YES
You should know where the different hands are strong and weak, to me the liveness of the hands is being able to use them in spontaneous combos based on the moment which is what you are saying  but 
a fook sau or a tan sau isnt a technique of itself per se, so using the best tool for the particular job doenst necessarily make you not alive, but maybe more efficient. I cant speak for your friend. 
I like to or used to like to try alot of different things but often found sometimes the more creative you get the harder or more impossible it can be to pull off.
However I still think the more I know the box the sooner I can step out of it. 
Some people however like to live precisely by the rules, and do exactly what they are told no more no less.
So to some extent I do agree with you.


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 12, 2005)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> Hmmm yes and no.
> The different hand positions are transitional, and wing chun isnt based on techniques. YES
> You should know where the different hands are strong and weak, to me the liveness of the hands is being able to use them in spontaneous combos based on the moment which is what you are saying but
> a fook sau or a tan sau isnt a technique of itself per se, so using the best tool for the particular job doenst necessarily make you not alive, but maybe more efficient. I cant speak for your friend.
> ...


 
I agree with you that you need to use the right tools for the right job, this is the essence of efficiency, which is the core of Wing Chun, but in saying this aliveness doesnt necassarally mean using a tool with a central controlling position e.g. fook Sau in an unusual place, (I was exagerating this for his benefit) but it is as simple as placing your tools where they will maximise your defensive position whilst promoting your offensive position, and can be as simple as slightly moving your Tan even an inch forward to gain this type of position, i think deadness of the hands happens because the Wing Chun practicioner fails to simply respond to the oponant, instead he has a "game plan" in his mind of what his next move is, this creates a mental freezing when the oponaant does something that is unexpected.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 13, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> I agree with you that you need to use the right tools for the right job, this is the essence of efficiency, which is the core of Wing Chun, but in saying this aliveness doesnt necassarally mean using a tool with a central controlling position e.g. fook Sau in an unusual place, (I was exagerating this for his benefit) but it is as simple as placing your tools where they will maximise your defensive position whilst promoting your offensive position, and can be as simple as slightly moving your Tan even an inch forward to gain this type of position, i think deadness of the hands happens because the Wing Chun practicioner fails to simply respond to the oponant, instead he has a "game plan" in his mind of what his next move is, this creates a mental freezing when the oponaant does something that is unexpected.


 
Now that i do agree with.


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