# Counters to Hosinsul



## MBuzzy (Jul 5, 2008)

Does your school teach or have you ever been exposed to counters for your school or organization's standardized hosinsul?  For example, as the attacker, I grab the defender's wrist and the defender performs some hosinsul technique, generally ending in a lock of some kind.  I know that there _are_ counters for the attacker to use to prevent being put into the lock or to escape from the lock, but are you ever taught those?

Do you feel that they are worth teaching?


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## Kacey (Jul 5, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Does your school teach or have you ever been exposed to counters for your school or organization's standardized hosinsul?  For example, as the attacker, I grab the defender's wrist and the defender performs some hosinsul technique, generally ending in a lock of some kind.  I know that there _are_ counters for the attacker to use to prevent being put into the lock or to escape from the lock, but are you ever taught those?
> 
> Do you feel that they are worth teaching?


Yes, to both - I've been taught, and teach, counters, and I believe that they are worth teaching.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 5, 2008)

Do you find that the counters are usually to the joint lock itself or occur before the lock happens?  

I mean, there are almost certainly certain positions that you can be placed in with very little if no escape/counter.


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## Kacey (Jul 5, 2008)

It depends on the lock, and which joint is involved.  Certainly, it's better to avoid the lock entirely whenever possible.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jul 5, 2008)

Some locks can't be countered. So, it's better to learn to avoid them than try to escape from them.

There are situations where there is not a way to counter, since your joints are way to stressed and make you unable to fight back.

The only way is to practice locks and counters a lot, to learn how to counter before the lock is completed. A fast movement is essential to achieve it.

As we have demonstrated, a well performed lock can't be countered once finished.
We tested the strongest guys, applied a lock, and then told them to escape, by any means. They couldn't


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## MBuzzy (Jul 5, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Some locks can't be countered. So, it's better to learn to avoid them than try to escape from them.
> 
> There are situations where there is not a way to counter, since your joints are way to stressed and make you unable to fight back.
> 
> ...


 
I would love to test that theory....I may start trying that in class, get into good locks and see if I can escape.


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 5, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Some locks can't be countered. So, it's better to learn to avoid them than try to escape from them.
> 
> There are situations where there is not a way to counter, since your joints are way to stressed and make you unable to fight back.
> 
> ...




That's a multi-dimensional issue 

1) one could make that claim for any technique.   A roundhouse kick to the head is not defeat-able once it is finished either.

2) Hoshinsul is as much position as strength and knowing how to counter a lock is as much knowing how the angles work and what direction(s) to move as it is about having the strength to break the lock. So a strong person unable to break a lock doesn't mean the lock can't be broken, it just means the given strong person doesn't know how to (the direction to apply force).  Whether or not it can be broken is still a question.

3) The best way to counter an attack (and a lock could be considered an attack) is to short-circuit it in process.  So even if a lock could not be broken once fully engaged, you must pay attention to the process of engaging the lock to be sure you understand at what point the process can be countered and seek to minimize the possibility of that counter within the process, not just at the end (I've found that many hoshinsul techniques an be difficult to work against once full engaged but often be countered in-process by an intentional roll or flip, orby a strike to disrupt the process or a movement that changes the angles/forces).

My last Hapkido instructor maintained that almost anything could be countered in-process, so you had to be ready to 'flow and go' into a new technique based on new positions, angles, and forces


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## Montecarlodrag (Jul 6, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> 3) *The best way to counter an attack (and a lock could be considered an attack) is to short-circuit it in process*. So even if a lock could not be broken once fully engaged, you must pay attention to the process of engaging the lock to be sure you understand at what point the process can be countered and seek to minimize the possibility of that counter within the process, not just at the end (I've found that many hoshinsul techniques an be difficult to work against once full engaged but often be countered in-process by an intentional roll or flip, orby a strike to disrupt the process or a movement that changes the angles/forces).
> 
> My last Hapkido instructor maintained that *almost anything could be countered in-process*, so you had to be ready to 'flow and go' into a new technique based on new positions, angles, and forces


 
That is exactly what I tried to say.
Is better to counter before is fully engaged, because once finished, some locks can't be defeated, or worse, the damage is already done.

With a lot of practice, you can counter most locks before they can't be unlocked, practice will give you the eye and fast movements needed to achieve that.

While I'm teaching ho sin sul some students often ask questions like "how do I defeat this lock?". (They demonstrate it)
Most of these locks can't be defeated once engaged.
Then, I explain "is better to learn how to counter in-process, before the enemy has defeated you with a joint lock" and "If you wait for your enemy to lock you, he will win"

I also explain to them if the enemy is not well trained (Street fights), he may neglect something and the lock may not be perfect, or he may give you a little chance to fight back, and you must learn how to unlock and escape, then strike back.

Both ways can give you a good self defense repertory.

Regards.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 6, 2008)

A lot of what gets practiced in hosinshul is joint bending.  Joint locking is a whole different story.  A real joint lock cannot be escaped...and not because of the technique being applied, neccessarily, but because the positioning of both uke and tori is so good that uke simply cannot escape.  BJJ, JJJ and to an extent, Judo really focus on this aspect of the arts.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 6, 2008)

Generally though, the hosinsul techniques are taught with joint locks, the bending comes in when they are executed incorrectly.

So is that a hard and fast rule - any joint lock - when applied properly - is completely inescapable?


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## Makalakumu (Jul 6, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Generally though, the hosinsul techniques are taught with joint locks, the bending comes in when they are executed incorrectly.
> 
> So is that a hard and fast rule - any joint lock - when applied properly - is completely inescapable?


 
The hosinshul we practiced when we were part of the federation were not inexcapable.  My teacher has a first dan in Takeda Ryu Aikijutsu and what he showed, you were not able to get out of.  I'm not trying to bash because there is a place for joint bending.  If your intent is to just break something and move on, then joint bending works just fine.  Joint locking is a separate art of tuite.  The two really are different.

Here's a good way to see what I'm saying.  Apply your hosinshul softly, with as little power as possible using the best technique you can.  If you can pull out of it, its joint bending.


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