# For those who don't care for ranks



## PhotonGuy (May 17, 2015)

For people who don't care for belt ranks or any type of ranks in the martial arts or those who think that having a belt or rank as a goal is missing the point how about considering this, training in a style that doesn't use rank. Just a thought.


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## Transk53 (May 17, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> For people who don't care for belt ranks or any type of ranks in the martial arts or those who think that having a belt or rank as a goal is missing the point how about considering this, training in a style that doesn't use rank. Just a thought.



There is always rank whether belted or not. Anyway what is the point, people don't live up to you're standards?


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## RTKDCMB (May 17, 2015)

I for one did not chose a martial art on the basis of whether it had ranks or not.


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## Gnarlie (May 17, 2015)

Me neither. I chose Taekwondo because I like Taekwondo.


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## Dirty Dog (May 17, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Me neither. I chose Taekwondo because I like Taekwondo.



Quoted for truth.

In my experience, those most concerned with belts are those with the least actual experience. 
I know for a fact I can go to the dojang in street clothes and it makes zero difference in how I am treated.


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## Gnarlie (May 17, 2015)

Another reason: as an instructor teaching large groups, I can easily split exercises by level.


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## Dirty Dog (May 17, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Another reason: as an instructor teaching large groups, I can easily split exercises by level.


 
I do that too. "Front leg double roundhouse. First to the waist, then the head. Greens belts and below can touch the foot to the floor between kicks if they need to."


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## Buka (May 17, 2015)

When a person first starts Martial Arts, or has already started and is looking for a different school, or is looking to start training again after a considerable lay off, or is now living in a new area and looking to continue training - they are all limited to what is actually around them - and that they can realistically get to on a regular basis.

I don't think the idea of belts or no belts will be something most would factor in.


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## MJS (May 17, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> For people who don't care for belt ranks or any type of ranks in the martial arts or those who think that having a belt or rank as a goal is missing the point how about considering this, training in a style that doesn't use rank. Just a thought.



Wow, you sure seem pretty fixated on rank.  Belts, levels, colored shirts, whatever....all it is, is a method of giving the student a visual idea as to where they are.  While it should also be an indication of skill, sadly, in many cases, it is not.  I've seen some upper belts, ie: green, brown, even black, that certainly don't perform to that level.  

My current teacher is very old school, very traditional. You don't put out in class, you don't show up for class, you don't show signs of improvement, you're not getting a new belt...period!  It's that simple.  All of his students, especially the higher ranks, are worthy of the rank they have on.


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## MJS (May 17, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I for one did not chose a martial art on the basis of whether it had ranks or not.



Exactly! Neither did I.


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## Tez3 (May 17, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> For people who don't care for belt ranks or any type of ranks in the martial arts or those who think that having a belt or rank as a goal is missing the point how about considering this, training in a style that doesn't use rank. Just a thought.




Is this a statement we are supposed to agree with or are you going to report us for taking it 'off topic' if we express a different opinion?


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## Chris Parker (May 17, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> For people who don't care for belt ranks or any type of ranks in the martial arts or those who think that having a belt or rank as a goal is missing the point how about considering this, training in a style that doesn't use rank. Just a thought.



Okay, time for bluntness again.

PG… with all your posts about this topic (over and over and over again…), I honestly don't think you have any firm grasp on what rank actually is, or what it relates to. You seem to want to apply a single template to every art, thinking rank is the same thing in all arts (when applied)… and frankly, all that tells me is that you don't have any real understanding of the topic in the first place.

Rank is individual to the system/organisation/school. The achievement and application of rank is only applicable in that context. It is as important as the system makes it, and has relevance only as pertaining to the way that system chooses to apply relevance. It's not about skill, it's not about experience, it's not about time, it's not about knowledge, it's not about spirit, it's not about courage, it's not about growth and development, it's not about dedication… except it could be about any and/or all of them. 

But, to give you some idea, typically, in traditional systems, rank was used to indicate a position within a hierarchy of a school (not skill)… the idea of skill-based rank came about later (most notably with Judo and competitive systems). 

The point is that there is no single concept of "rank"… there is no single idea of it's importance… so I'm going to make a suggestion here, along the lines of your own.

Don't worry about what any other arts or practitioners do with regards to rank. You think it's important.. great. You were concerned about when you would get your black belt… fine. But here's the thing… your personal concept of rank is just that… yours. It's applied within your school, and your school alone. It represents absolutely nothing outside of your school. It applies to absolutely nothing outside of your school. It has no relevance outside of your school.

So… when you think you've come up with yet another suggestion for how everyone should behave and think… don't. Recognise that your situation is only yours… telling people what they should or shouldn't do, according to your limited understanding of what's going on, isn't something you're in a position to do.


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## Gnarlie (May 17, 2015)

I think Chris' comment is absolutely fair. It also applies to my opinion about rank. It is only my opinion, and is only valid within the context of KKW TKD in my dojang.

I would still say that a preoccupation with rank is damaging to true progress in martial arts, regardless of the art. I can support that view, but that is just my opinion.

When all is said, PG, you are still absolutely free to do and say whatever you like regarding rank. We might not agree, but I would hope that you afford the same right to freedom of opinion to me as I do to you.

Discussion and difference of opinion is healthy and helps us to understand all sides of an issue.

Try a thought experiment to determine what really motivates you...3 situations as follows:

A club that does not use rank of any kind and just trains hard, and will turn you into a quality martial artist. 

A club that doesn't actually train martial arts well, but will give you a belt to wear and the accompanying status in the club hierarchy if you stick around long enough. 

A club that will make you into a quality martial artist, but also does not use a belt ranking system. They do award praise and hierarchical status in other ways, though. 

Which of these clubs would you prefer to attend? What is it that attracts you so much to conversations about rank? Is it the skill, the praise and status, or the belt itself that you are fixated on?

Just to clarify: if rank were nothing to me, would I have bothered to progress? Rank is useful for structure and for instructors, but not as a status symbol. At least not for me. Just my opinion.


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## Danny T (May 17, 2015)

When I got out of the military I had attained the rank of Sergeant. Went to work with for a security company and my rank meant nothing even though my experience and skills were superior to the person who was my supervisor. Rank attained was of little value elsewhere. In time with them I gained a higher level of ranking. I left that job having gone back to school and began working with a different company where I again started as the new guy (my previous 'rank' again meant nothing within this company). Rank means only what it means to you and the particular school, group, company, etc that has given it to you and nothing more.


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## zzj (May 17, 2015)

OP's obsession with the topic of ranks is more telling than anything else.


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## Zero (May 18, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Is this a statement we are supposed to agree with or are you going to report us for taking it 'off topic' if we express a different opinion?


You just took this post off-topic  : )


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## tshadowchaser (May 18, 2015)

if a person can not go into any school and have all the students, instructors, etc. take off their belts and preform through out class and be able to tell who is higher rank than their is something wrong or different in the grading system.  All schools have a ranking system of some sort and those with the most experience and knowledge should be able to be seen even by a novice by they way they preform if they wear rank or not.


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## PhotonGuy (May 18, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> There is always rank whether belted or not. Anyway what is the point, people don't live up to you're standards?


Why would I care if people live up to my standards or not with this?


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## granfire (May 18, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> if a person can not go into any school and have all the students, instructors, etc. take off their belts and preform through out class and be able to tell who is higher rank than their is something wrong or different in the grading system.  All schools have a ranking system of some sort and those with the most experience and knowledge should be able to be seen even by a novice by they way they preform if they wear rank or not.



I think it's more of a crutch for the instructor to assign adequate exercises without pulling files out.
Much fun when you have from greens through black everything present!


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## PhotonGuy (May 18, 2015)

There are some really good styles out there that don't use rank beyond instructor/student. The style of JKD was created by Bruce Lee and I believe it does not have rank. Also styles such as Muai Thai, western boxing, certain forms of wrestling, and other styles don't use rank.

Anyway, if you are training in a style that does use rank and you don't care about rank, staying at a low rank for too long can cause complications. At high ranks its not such a problem but at low ranks it can cause complications with your training.


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## PhotonGuy (May 18, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> In my experience, those most concerned with belts are those with the least actual experience.


I do have to agree with you on this. From my own experience its common for beginners and those of low rank to be really concerned with belts. At higher levels you're not as concerned. Some people will get to brown belt or black belt and then they will stop pursuing rank and they will stay at the belt or level that they're at for the rest of their career.


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## PhotonGuy (May 18, 2015)

MJS said:


> My current teacher is very old school, very traditional. You don't put out in class, you don't show up for class, you don't show signs of improvement, you're not getting a new belt...period!  It's that simple.  All of his students, especially the higher ranks, are worthy of the rank they have on.



Good for your teacher.


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## PhotonGuy (May 18, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Rank is individual to the system/organisation/school. The achievement and application of rank is only applicable in that context. It is as important as the system makes it, and has relevance only as pertaining to the way that system chooses to apply relevance. It's not about skill, it's not about experience, it's not about time, it's not about knowledge, it's not about spirit, it's not about courage, it's not about growth and development, it's not about dedication… except it could be about any and/or all of them.


Right, and I pointed that out in my other thread.



Chris Parker said:


> Don't worry about what any other arts or practitioners do with regards to rank. You think it's important.. great. You were concerned about when you would get your black belt… fine. But here's the thing… your personal concept of rank is just that… yours. It's applied within your school, and your school alone. It represents absolutely nothing outside of your school. It applies to absolutely nothing outside of your school. It has no relevance outside of your school.


I also point that out in my other thread.



Chris Parker said:


> So… when you think you've come up with yet another suggestion for how everyone should behave and think… don't. Recognise that your situation is only yours… telling people what they should or shouldn't do, according to your limited understanding of what's going on, isn't something you're in a position to do.


But you see its just that, a suggestion. As I said in the first post, its just a thought. I certainly can't force anybody to follow it, not that I would want to anyway.


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## Transk53 (May 18, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why would I care if people live up to my standards or not with this?



Well you are obsessed with rank, belt colour etc, it seemed like a reasonable assumption.


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## PhotonGuy (May 19, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Well you are obsessed with rank, belt colour etc, it seemed like a reasonable assumption.



Well there are some people who are obsessed with, or don't have any interest in not pursuing rank, belt, color, ect. That being the case I was wondering why they wouldn't simply train in a style that doesn't use such stuff. Im not asking them to meet any of my standards.


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## zzj (May 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well there are some people who are obsessed with, or don't have any interest in not pursuing rank, belt, color, ect. That being the case I was wondering why they wouldn't simply train in a style that doesn't use such stuff. Im not asking them to meet any of my standards.



I think you have just missed the point entirely. The vast majority of people who do not have any interest in rank are simply NOT INTERESTED in the whole issue of ranks; it would be illogical to think that they would give up their MA for some issue that means little to them.If your topic is directed at people who are so vehemently anti-ranking, you would be addressing a tiny fringe of the spectrum.

I count myself as someone who is not interested in ranks, however, I am a black belt in TKD, and a green belt in judo. I go for gradings / tests just like everybody else in my classes simply because the curriculum is structured in that way, not because I am interested in rising in my rank.

My current MA does not have any ranking, although they have recently added a system of grading to confer different levels of proficiency in order to be more 'in line' with contemporary expectations. My teacher made it clear though, that this ranking system is a personal choice and will not have any impact on what is taught in class.


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## PhotonGuy (May 19, 2015)

zzj said:


> I think you have just missed the point entirely. The vast majority of people who do not have any interest in rank are simply NOT INTERESTED in the whole issue of ranks; it would be illogical to think that they would give up their MA for some issue that means little to them.If your topic is directed at people who are so vehemently anti-ranking, you would be addressing a tiny fringe of the spectrum.
> 
> I count myself as someone who is not interested in ranks, however, I am a black belt in TKD, and a green belt in judo. I go for gradings / tests just like everybody else in my classes simply because the curriculum is structured in that way, not because I am interested in rising in my rank.
> 
> My current MA does not have any ranking, although they have recently added a system of grading to confer different levels of proficiency in order to be more 'in line' with contemporary expectations. My teacher made it clear though, that this ranking system is a personal choice and will not have any impact on what is taught in class.



Well the thing is, if you do train at a dojo that has ranks, if you stay at a low rank for too long it can cause complications. With higher ranks its not such a problem but staying at low ranks overly long can cause complications with the training.


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## Transk53 (May 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well there are some people who are obsessed with, or don't have any interest in not pursuing rank, belt, color, ect. That being the case I was wondering why they wouldn't simply train in a style that doesn't use such stuff. Im not asking them to meet any of my standards.



Okay. From my perspective. If I had been introduced to a martial art when I was younger, and one that I would not have had any issues with, then a belt would have been important. Using the "ladder" metaphor with having one foot on it then climbing up the belt ladder. Now being in my forties, that is of no importance to me really, just the skills. However, obviously a belt would be needed for progress, but I would not have that a goal, just a tool that is there.


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## Gnarlie (May 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well there are some people who are obsessed with, or don't have any interest in not pursuing rank, belt, color, ect. That being the case I was wondering why they wouldn't simply train in a style that doesn't use such stuff. Im not asking them to meet any of my standards.


It's not an obsession to not see something as a priority.

Rank is a by-product of progress. If I didn't think progress were important, I wouldn't have graded, and certainly not into the dan grades.

Whether or not that progress has some marker beyond skill and knowledge is what I don't really care about. That Taekwondo works with belts is incidental.

I would happily train in a system without physical progress markers, but it wouldn't be Taekwondo, and Taekwondo is my obsession.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2015)

Danny T said:


> When I got out of the military I had attained the rank of Sergeant. Went to work with for a security company and my rank meant nothing even though my experience and skills were superior to the person who was my supervisor.


When I got out of the Taiwan navy, I had attained the rank of Second Lieutenant. When I was a student in UT Austin, my friend suggested me to join in the Texas national guard on the weekend to make some extra money (it was $175 per month back then). Since the Texas national guard won't offer me the second lieutenant rank, I didn't joint in the Texas national guard.

If you have obtained a higher rank, sometime it may be hard for you to go back to a lower rank again.

Do you think that the TKD master Jhoon Rhee would join in a BJJ school and start from a white belt again, I strongly doubt it,


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## Zero (May 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I got out of the Taiwan navy, I had attained the rank of Second Lieutenant. When I was a student in UT Austin, my friend suggested me to join in the Texas national guard on the weekend to make some extra money (it was $175 per month back then). Since the Texas national guard won't offer me the second lieutenant rank, I didn't joint in the Texas national guard.
> 
> If you have obtained a higher rank, sometime it may be hard for you to go back to a lower rank again.
> 
> Do you think that the TKD master Jhoon Rhee would join in a BJJ school and start from a white belt again, I strongly doubt it,


Huh??
Why would he not, if he had no real ground/grappling skill but wanted to add to his overall abilities?  What value would it be for him or his teacher or class-mates to offer him a purple or bb for bjj and have him role at beginner level?

Sure, often highly skilled and/or experienced fighters, given the mind-set they have can pick up other different styles and fight applications quicker than general newbies - but even that is not always the case, sometimes your years of training can make a different style, such as bjj or judo, actually counter-intuitive at first...
Sounds like anyone wanting to partake in another completely different style but not happy to, even if just at first, start off as a newbie has a major ego-issue, a major one.

I've skied pretty much my entire life and am an advanced skier, would I jump straight into an advanced snowboard class (if I wanted to take that sport for snow-heathens up), hell no.  I might advance quicker than those who have never been on the snow before and move up to intermediate quicker but saying I was "intermediate" from day one would be a pretence.

Saying Jhoon Rhee was "intermediate" in bjj from day one would also be a pretence and a joke, so why give him a belt colour that reflects intermediate or advanced from day one?

"if you ain't learnt it, you ain't earnt it".


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## Danny T (May 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I got out of the Taiwan navy, I had attained the rank of Second Lieutenant. When I was a student in UT Austin, my friend suggested me to join in the Texas national guard on the weekend to make some extra money (it was $175 per month back then). Since the Texas national guard won't offer me the second lieutenant rank, I didn't joint in the Texas national guard.
> 
> If you have obtained a higher rank, sometime it may be hard for you to go back to a lower rank again.
> 
> Do you think that the TKD master Jhoon Rhee would join in a BJJ school and start from a white belt again, I strongly doubt it,


There are many who are unwilling to go to a lower status as yourself with the TNG. That is a choice you made because you were unwilling to take a lower grade (ego) or was it that you were unwilling to work for less pay? Again a choice. As to Mr. Rhee being unwilling to start as a white belt again to learn something new or different with a completely different organization that is again a choice and 'if' it were that he really wanted to learn something new and refused to take a lower rank that choice came because of his ego and lack of humbling himself to learn something new. 

Being you used BJJ as an example... my wing chun instructor is a master instructor and several years ago put on a white belt to learn BJJ under then 7th degree Master Ricardo Murgel. He had Murgel come to his school and was on the floor with all his students training right along with them as a white belt in BJJ. He continued to train under Professor Pedro Sauer and several of his students today are higher ranked in BJJ than he is. No EGO! Lower his status to learn and grow. Why, because he want to learn something that he was not proficient in and wanted his students to learn as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have obtained a higher rank, sometime it may be hard for you to go back to a lower rank again.
> 
> Do you think that the TKD master Jhoon Rhee would join in a BJJ school and start from a white belt again, I strongly doubt it,


Why? If I were to start training in a new art that used a ranking system, I would expect to start as a white belt (or whatever the equivalent might be in that art.) 

When Check Norris began training BJJ, he started out as a white belt. When Dan Inosanto began training BJJ, he started out  a white belt.

Different arts, different ranks. If you had a Ph.D. in English literature and you decided to go back to school to study chemistry, would you expect to start out as a Ph.D. in chemistry? That would be silly.


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## pgsmith (May 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Why? If I were to start training in a new art that used a ranking system, I would expect to start as a white belt (or whatever the equivalent might be in that art.)
> 
> When Check Norris began training BJJ, he started out as a white belt. When Dan Inosanto began training BJJ, he started out  a white belt.
> 
> Different arts, different ranks. If you had a Ph.D. in English literature and you decided to go back to school to study chemistry, would you expect to start out as a Ph.D. in chemistry? That would be silly.



  Absolutely agree. I was a sixth dan in my first Japanese sword arts school when I began learning another, and started with no rank. I was up to 3rd dan in that school when I had to transfer to a different school where I started back with no rank. I've now attained 5th dan rank in my present school, Meishi-ha Mugai ryu. I also practice a couple of other arts that I've only been doing for a short time, and I have yet to attain any ranking in either of them.

  If you start something new, it's impossible to start anywhere but at the bottom since that's where you are knowledge-wise. However, if it is similar to other arts you've learned well, it is possible to advance quicker than someone who is a martial arts beginner. At least, that has been my experience.


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## Blindside (May 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I got out of the Taiwan navy, I had attained the rank of Second Lieutenant. When I was a student in UT Austin, my friend suggested me to join in the Texas national guard on the weekend to make some extra money (it was $175 per month back then). Since the Texas national guard won't offer me the second lieutenant rank, I didn't joint in the Texas national guard.
> 
> If you have obtained a higher rank, sometime it may be hard for you to go back to a lower rank again.
> 
> Do you think that the TKD master Jhoon Rhee would join in a BJJ school and start from a white belt again, I strongly doubt it,


 
I am sure for some people it is hard to not be "the man," but that is more of an ego thing.  I would love to be the student again, to be on that early end of the learning curve, where you can see those milestones and knock them down in quick succession.  That is one of the most enjoyable parts of studying martial arts to me.  I look at Dan Inosanto who is instructor ranked in too many arts to list and yet lives the "empty your cup" mentality, demonstrating this most obviously when he started BJJ in his 60s as a white belt.

I would love to have the time to be a white belt again.


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## Mark Lynn (May 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> I do have to agree with you on this. From my own experience its common for beginners and those of low rank to be really concerned with belts. At higher levels you're not as concerned. Some people will get to brown belt or black belt and then they will stop pursuing rank and they will stay at the belt or level that they're at for the rest of their career.



I think it is really the person and not the beginner, intermediate, advanced rank, that determines who's is concerned with rank or not.

From my own experience teaching young kids through adults, most kids want to move up, their parents want them to move up (be tested and show outward progress by a new belt), many adults do as well.  Even my black belts want to know OK what do I have to do to earn 2nd black and so on.

However in my classes we don't have belts on the wall to stress that idea, we don't wear stripes on our black belts to denote rank, we don't have our names embroidered, or anything really to make it special.   It's almost down played.

At my instructors home dojo where I trained, it took me 8 years to earn 1st dan, then 7 yrs later I tested for 2nd.   We didn't wear belts when we sparred or worked out there, our ranks really only mattered outside of the dojo in other training halls (cause that told us where to line up).

One of the guys who trained there technically stayed at 1st or 2nd dan level by way of kata, basics, you know that type of skill; however he sparred and trained with the rest of us and he had been in it longer than most if not all of us.  But he was in it for fight, the friendship etc. etc. he didn't care about the rank per say.  (He was/is highly skilled at sparring (kick boxing type) so he was way beyond the 1st/2nd dan rank in the sparring skill wise.)   This guy over the years was promoted with the rest of us, I'm using him as an example of someone who got to a certain rank and what was beyond that rank didn't really matter, but he stayed in for the training.  

So in my school rank is down played to a degree and I don't pump it up nor really worry about it, and yet my students do, even my black belts.  But again I've had some students come and train with my Modern Arnis class who have trained before and don't care about ranks or belts either.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well the thing is, if you do train at a dojo that has ranks, if you stay at a low rank for too long it can cause complications. With higher ranks its not such a problem but staying at low ranks overly long can cause complications with the training.



Why?  I guess it depends on the school.   At my instructors commercial or open dojo he has an age requirement for 1st dan of 16.  So students  if they start at 6 yrs old might be in the school for 10 years before the test for shodan.   It doesn't mean their training was hampered just that by then they are really good 1st dans.   He has requirements and you bend to that requirement period, one of them being age for 1st dan.

Likewise (speaking of my school) if a student decides they want to only stay at a certain level then 1) they can stay at that level and not move on past it, 2) bend to the will of the instructor and learn the requirements to move to the next level, or 3) maybe the school (like in my Modern Arnis class, or as the case was in my instructors home dojo years ago with the guy I referenced above), doesn't really care and proceeds to teach them further skills but not really worry about teaching by a standardized rank orientated curriculum.

I don't see a problem.


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## Mark Lynn (May 19, 2015)

Oh and speaking of my instructor's commercial school, if you come in and start classes you wear a white belt no matter what rank you were in your other art.  Many students in our American Karate/TKD organization has done just that, get a black belt from one of the other instructors and then enter his classes as a white belt.


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## Blindside (May 19, 2015)

I'll be the first to admit that as an underbelt I really liked the belt system, and yeah, I really wanted a black belt.   The rank systems have their ups and downs but for me it helped me lay out a set of goals for what I had to achieve as a progression.  Obviously the skill had to accompany the rank, but it was very helpful. 

As a more um.... mature student, I enjoy being in as system (kali) where there isn't a big emphasis on rank.  I can run laterally or vertically through the curriculum without concern that a student in the class isn't getting whatever specific piece of curriculum they need to accomplish the artificial distinction that is rank X.  Obviously they need to get it at some point, but they don't need it by some testing date (not that we have those.)


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## Shai Hulud (May 19, 2015)

In training Systema I don't give much for rank except when addressing instructors, and in my practice of Sambo it only bothers me because of certain competition rules specific to each level. Other than that, and even while I was a Judoka years back, rank never meant much to me.

I got into the martial arts because I wanted to get fit. I stayed because I found that hitting people was very therapeutic to me, especially after they've hit me.


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## Mark Lynn (May 19, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have obtained a higher rank, sometime it may be hard for you to go back to a lower rank again.
> 
> Do you think that the TKD master Jhoon Rhee would join in a BJJ school and start from a white belt again, I strongly doubt it,



If you have earned a higher rank it can be hard to go back to a lower rank and what you describe in your post here is a big one and that is ego.

We have a local cross training group MAPA that promotes the FMAs (you can read about it in the FMA, Modern Arnis forums), anyway it can be hard to explain to the other instructors that you are on a teaching rotation with other instructors who might have less time in the arts as you, aren't as high of rank as you, who don't really care what title you have etc. etc. but........ they are going to be treated the same as you, get paid as much as you do, and have the same time teaching as you etc. etc.   In fact in our group we generally don't wear belts to denote rank, titles etc. etc.

It can be hard for the ego that most of the attendee's really don't care, they care only about what you can show and share with them.  Are you a good instructor and can you teach and demonstrate your skill.  What is important is not your title, your lineage, your degree.

However in regards to Jhoon Rhee, or anyone really if you want something bad enough tying a white belt around your waist is nothing.   It is putting up with of the BS that other beginner students, and junior instructors will feed you, and all of the while you need to keep yourself in check so as not to rock the boat.

A couple of my students came from a local karate school where they were intermediate belts, they had studied at a previous Modern Arnis school, at another FMA school and another karate school before so they weren't newbies but they put on the white belt.  One day they see the seniors (below black belt) practicing some basic stick work, and were told that they couldn't participate because they weren't high enough ranked, yet they had more experience in the FMAs then those that were just learning the basics.  Likewise when practicing a self defense technique and questioning the mechanics of it or something like that and being told by a higher ranked beginner student some obvious BS answer, and then have them comment "you'll understand this when you are a.........(insert whatever rank the student was)".   Or if they find out that you have studied before than it's well "how many boards can you break?"


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## PhotonGuy (May 19, 2015)

Mark Lynn said:


> PHOTONGUY SAID: ↑
> Well the thing is, if you do train at a dojo that has ranks, if you stay at a low rank for too long it can cause complications. With higher ranks its not such a problem but staying at low ranks overly long can cause complications with the training.
> 
> Why?  I guess it depends on the school.   At my instructors commercial or open dojo he has an age requirement for 1st dan of 16.  So students  if they start at 6 yrs old might be in the school for 10 years before the test for shodan.   It doesn't mean their training was hampered just that by then they are really good 1st dans.   He has requirements and you bend to that requirement period, one of them being age for 1st dan.


At my dojo, if you stay at a low belt indefinitely long you will not learn some of the more advanced stuff, particularly katas. Usually, you go up a belt and then you learn the kata for the next belt. Although students sometimes do learn more advanced katas you are not going to know katas that are that much more advanced. A white belt is not going to know brown belt katas.

Also, most of the drills we do are partner drills where you work with a partner in the class. Most of the time you will work with somebody who is the same or close to the same rank as you. Sometimes a much higher ranking student will partner up with a much lower ranking student in which case the higher ranking student will help the lower ranking student but most of the time you work with somebody who is the same or around the same rank as you. This can cause complications if your skill level far exceeds your belt rank.

So this is why its not a good idea to stay at low ranks for too long. At higher ranks its not such a problem but at lower ranks it can cause those complications.


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## Mark Lynn (May 19, 2015)

Blindside said:


> I'll be the first to admit that as an underbelt I really liked the belt system, and yeah, I really wanted a black belt.   The rank systems have their ups and downs but for me it helped me lay out a set of goals for what I had to achieve as a progression.  Obviously the skill had to accompany the rank, but it was very helpful.
> 
> As a more um.... mature student, I enjoy being in as system (kali) where there isn't a big emphasis on rank.  I can run laterally or vertically through the curriculum without concern that a student in the class isn't getting whatever specific piece of curriculum they need to accomplish the artificial distinction that is rank X.  Obviously they need to get it at some point, but they don't need it by some testing date (not that we have those.)



Blindside 

I agree with your post as a under belt, testing was a big thing, once I was at my instructors home dojo it was less so but I still liked it.  It does have it's ups and downs, it's pros and cons.

But I like the FMAs and the de-emphasis on the whole rank thing.  Especially when teaching in class because I can tailor make the class depending upon who is in class that night, or what I learned at a recent seminar that might fit in etc. etc.

However it was hard in my case to make out a curriculum for my Modern Arnis class that was rank progression oriented because of how diverse the material can be.  And I admit it is hard to stay with that curriculum at times because well the other stuff can be so much fun to teach.


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## Blindside (May 19, 2015)

Mark Lynn said:


> However it was hard in my case to make out a curriculum for my Modern Arnis class that was rank progression oriented because of how diverse the material can be.  And I admit it is hard to stay with that curriculum at times because well the other stuff can be so much fun to teach.


 
I have a designated curriculum, but I generally don't award any rank under "lakan guro" so there isn't any issue with going left right or sideways.  I just get together with my potential assistant instructors pirvately and go over the curricullum with them to make sure we have covered everything, and we review how the curriculum is taught.  If they missed a piece of the requirements I make sure that we cover it then and then make sure they get enough skill in the material before I award the rank.


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## Mark Lynn (May 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> At my dojo, if you stay at a low belt indefinitely long you will not learn some of the more advanced stuff, particularly katas. Usually, you go up a belt and then you learn the kata for the next belt. Although students sometimes do learn more advanced katas you are not going to know katas that are that much more advanced. A white belt is not going to know brown belt katas.



No I get that totally, however are you learning applications to the kata, are the more advanced kata tied to more advanced drills, etc. etc.?  I guess what I'm saying is that if it is just learning more kata for kata sake, then...... to each his own.  Learning more kata might not be important to someone, so how is that a problem?  Now if there are specific drills, applications, principles, that are being taught along with the kata to add the learning of it, then yes someone not learning a the new or advanced kata is missing out.

But however like in the example of my friend and dojo mate, he didn't go to the outside classes like I did so he didn't need to know the amount of kata I did to keep up and progress through the ranks, so he didn't really care to learn and keep up with it.  He was there for other reasons.



PhotonGuy said:


> Also, most of the drills we do are partner drills where you work with a partner in the class. Most of the time you will work with somebody who is the same or close to the same rank as you. Sometimes a much higher ranking student will partner up with a much lower ranking student in which case the higher ranking student will help the lower ranking student but most of the time you work with somebody who is the same or around the same rank as you. This can cause complications if your skill level far exceeds your belt rank.
> 
> So this is why its not a good idea to stay at low ranks for too long. At higher ranks its not such a problem but at lower ranks it can cause those complications.



Maybe I'm missing something here but how does having someone who's skill far exceeds his partner hold the partner back?  If the guy who doesn't want to learn what is required for the next rank, the experienced one, is doing a base drill with a student who's wanting to move up than I would think that would be good because it helps the student who wants to progress raise the bar so to speak.  They have to try harder to keep up, this will help them in the long run.

As to the guy who doesn't want to move forward then oh well, he's made that choice, maybe he wants to just perfect his techniques, I don't know.  Point is he knows what he needs to do to move on, if he doesn't want to than that's his choice.

However if this person is staying at a rank to be abusive to others, to dominate them, or cause problems at the school than that is another issue all together.


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## Mark Lynn (May 19, 2015)

Blindside said:


> I have a designated curriculum, but I generally don't award any rank under "lakan guro" so there isn't any issue with going left right or sideways.  I just get together with my potential assistant instructors pirvately and go over the curricullum with them to make sure we have covered everything, and we review how the curriculum is taught.  If they missed a piece of the requirements I make sure that we cover it then and then make sure they get enough skill in the material before I award the rank.



Hey did you come up with the curriculum or is it a standard found in Pekiti Tirsa.  Note I'm not a PT guy and have no clue about their curriculum or even if they have one, I've trained some with PT guys and classes and such, but don't know about their rank structure etc.  So I was just wondering if you came up with what or how you teach or if it was something already out there and you adopted it for your class.

Not meaning to take thread of topic.


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## Blindside (May 19, 2015)

Mark Lynn said:


> Hey did you come up with the curriculum or is it a standard found in Pekiti Tirsa.  Note I'm not a PT guy and have no clue about their curriculum or even if they have one, I've trained some with PT guys and classes and such, but don't know about their rank structure etc.  So I was just wondering if you came up with what or how you teach or if it was something already out there and you adopted it for your class.
> 
> Not meaning to take thread of topic.


 
Sort of a combination, we (my training partner and I) being the kenpo geeks that we were took what we learned from our instructor and created an organized curriculum.  Since then my instructor went on to become the head of an organization (PT Tactical Association) and that forced him to create his own organized curriculum.  There are obvious major overlaps between the two curriculums, but I prefer mine and have stuck with it. 

PT International has a very organized curriclum as does the PTK-SMF and the Texas Kali group.  Again, obvious major overlaps but they are not identical.


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## PhotonGuy (May 19, 2015)

Mark Lynn said:


> No I get that totally, however are you learning applications to the kata, are the more advanced kata tied to more advanced drills, etc. etc.?  I guess what I'm saying is that if it is just learning more kata for kata sake, then...... to each his own.  Learning more kata might not be important to someone, so how is that a problem?  Now if there are specific drills, applications, principles, that are being taught along with the kata to add the learning of it, then yes someone not learning a the new or advanced kata is missing out.
> 
> But however like in the example of my friend and dojo mate, he didn't go to the outside classes like I did so he didn't need to know the amount of kata I did to keep up and progress through the ranks, so he didn't really care to learn and keep up with it.  He was there for other reasons.


Yes you do learn the applications of the kata. The first step is to learn all the moves and motions of the kata. Then after that you learn how each move applies, how it would be used against an opponent. Then, it goes further than that. When you do the kata you are supposed to imagine you're really fighting people and apply that mindset, so there is the mental aspect as well. That's why katas are sometimes referred to as meditation in motion. And you do learn specific drills and applications with the katas and those are sometimes applied in class drills.





Mark Lynn said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here but how does having someone who's skill far exceeds his partner hold the partner back?  If the guy who doesn't want to learn what is required for the next rank, the experienced one, is doing a base drill with a student who's wanting to move up than I would think that would be good because it helps the student who wants to progress raise the bar so to speak.  They have to try harder to keep up, this will help them in the long run.
> 
> As to the guy who doesn't want to move forward then oh well, he's made that choice, maybe he wants to just perfect his techniques, I don't know.  Point is he knows what he needs to do to move on, if he doesn't want to than that's his choice.
> 
> However if this person is staying at a rank to be abusive to others, to dominate them, or cause problems at the school than that is another issue all together.



Lets say there's a white belt who has the skill level of a brown belt. If he keeps working with other white belts in drills he is not going to get much out of it. By then he should be a brown belt and he should be working with other brown belts and black belts if he wants to get the most out of it.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Lets say there's a white belt who has the skill level of a brown belt. If he keeps working with other white belts in drills he is not going to get much out of it. By then he should be a brown belt and he should be working with other brown belts and black belts if he wants to get the most out of it.


I'm a big believer in training with partners of *all* skill levels. I work with white belts through black belts and I get different benefits from all of them.


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## Spinedoc (May 19, 2015)

In Aikido, at least Aikikai , which I train, it's different. Same with MSR. There are no belt levels. You are a white belt until you are a black belt in Aikido (our dojo does permit 2nd and 1st kyu to wear brown belts, but that is our dojo only) and then you wear a hakama. Given the time requirements in Aikido (USAF at least), if you practice 2-3 times per week, it'll take almost 10 years to reach 1st dan. IOW, you will spend a lot of time as a white belt. It makes seminars interesting, cause you can work with a white belt who is a brand new beginner, 6th kyu or no kyu, or you may be working with a 3rd kyu who has been practicing for 4 years. The belt will be the same.

In MSR Iaido, everyone wears a black gi with hakama, and there is no differentiation with belts, the most advanced students use shinken, while the rest use iaito, but otherwise, there is no external way of telling.


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## Spinedoc (May 19, 2015)

I also remember a student asking our shidoin how long it would take to reach "black belt". He laughed and said, "I dunno, maybe ten minutes to buy one at a store?, if that's all your interested in that is".


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## Tony Dismukes (May 19, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> In Aikido, at least Aikikai , which I train, it's different. Same with MSR. There are no belt levels. You are a white belt until you are a black belt in Aikido (our dojo does permit 2nd and 1st kyu to wear brown belts, but that is our dojo only) and then you wear a hakama. Given the time requirements in Aikido (USAF at least), if you practice 2-3 times per week, it'll take almost 10 years to reach 1st dan. IOW, you will spend a lot of time as a white belt. It makes seminars interesting, cause you can work with a white belt who is a brand new beginner, 6th kyu or no kyu, or you may be working with a 3rd kyu who has been practicing for 4 years. The belt will be the same.
> 
> In MSR Iaido, everyone wears a black gi with hakama, and there is no differentiation with belts, the most advanced students use shinken, while the rest use iaito, but otherwise, there is no external way of telling.


I've visited a local judo school that handles rank the same way. They do have kyu ranks, but the belt stays white.

Nice folks. If it wasn't a bit of a drive I might take some classes there regularly.


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## Spinedoc (May 19, 2015)

Yeah, and our classes aren't geared specifically towards anyone. Sensei will pick out a theme for each class, and everyone, 6th kyu through nidan, will all practice together and work on the same techniques, the testing is progressive as you move up, but practice is practice, any and all techniques are fair game, although we may not throw a 6th kyu into an aggressive koshi, we will begin to show them how to do it while everyone is practicing. When we have more advanced techniques, Sensei will simply say "More experienced students with less experienced please". Mostly to prevent someone from getting hurt trying a technique they don't really understand yet.


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## PhotonGuy (May 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm a big believer in training with partners of *all* skill levels. I work with white belts through black belts and I get different benefits from all of them.



Well yes. Sometimes a much higher ranking student will work with a much lower ranking student. In a case like that the higher ranking student tones it down to match the level of the lower ranking student and the idea is for the higher ranking student to help out the lower ranking student. But, most of the time you will be training with somebody at or around your same rank. That way you don't have to tone it down.


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## PhotonGuy (May 19, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> I also remember a student asking our shidoin how long it would take to reach "black belt". He laughed and said, "I dunno, maybe ten minutes to buy one at a store?, if that's all your interested in that is".



Well then the student should've asked specifically how long it would take to earn a black belt at the school. Most instructors will give a general average.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Why? If I were to start training in a new art that used a ranking system, I would expect to start as a white belt (or whatever the equivalent might be in that art.)


I didn't say one should or one should not. I said "It may be hard".

I was a folk dancing instructor and I had won A-Go-Go dancing champion once, but when I started ballroom dancing, I started as a bronze level. I did move to silver level very fast though.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I was a folk dancing instructor and I had won A-Go-Go dancing champion once, but when I started ballroom dancing, I started as a bronze level. I did move to silver level very fast though.


Well if you've got previous experience in something similar you can advance faster, provided that its similar enough. For instance, lets say you've got a 3rd degree black belt in Karate you've been doing it for many years. Now lets say you decide to start Judo and so you start as a white belt. Judo is very different from Karate so you will probably not advance that much faster, if at all, than if you didn't have your Karate background. Now, lets say you take up Tae Kwon Do. Tae Kwon Do is quite similar to Karate, much more so than Judo so even if you do start as a white belt you will probably advance quite fast, certainly faster than if you had no martial arts background whatsoever. I don't know much about dancing and how similar folk dancing is to ballroom dancing but starting at the beginner level in something, if you've already got good experience in something similar you will no doubt advance really quickly.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

So, based on the replies I've come to a conclusion which I had already thought of beforehand, I just wanted to confirm it. People choose a style or styles to train in because they like the content of the style and they like the techniques and the method of the style, not because it has ranks or doesn't have ranks. There are some people that just don't care much for rank and that doesn't mean they're vehemently against rank or styles that use it to the point that they would never train in a style that has rank, they just don't pursue it that much if their style does have rank. That makes sense and its good to choose a style because you like the content of it not because it uses or doesn't use rank. But aside from that, if you do train in a style that does use rank, it does have to be enough of a priority that you eventually pursue it if you want to take your training to the next level.


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## Zero (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes. Sometimes a much higher ranking student will work with a much lower ranking student. In a case like that the higher ranking student tones it down to match the level of the lower ranking student and the idea is for the higher ranking student to help out the lower ranking student. But, most of the time you will be training with somebody at or around your same rank. That way you don't have to tone it down.



You may just find yourself in a school that is for whatever reason quite top heavy with very advanced/senior practitioners (which is what happened to me when I joined goju ryu) or that has a scattering of levels across the board.  When I joined my goju club I had a lot of TKD background but I was one of the few juniors in karate, even most of the younger/teen members were brown through to black/dan belts and had all been competing regionally and nationally in kata and kumite, that just happened to be the phase of the club when I signed up (this club was not commercial focused so was not fused about a conveyor belt approach to keeping the junior/young ranks flowing in).  I was always sparring with and training with the various dan belts.  From my perspective that was amazing, there is nothing better than doing something with those that are better than you, you learn at an accelerated rate and up your game without even realising it.

Aside from judo, which had a massive in-take each year of the same age as it was connected with the school, I have generally found myself either training with those above me in rank or training those below me in grade or experience...again, maybe because my schools have never been that big...

I can also tell you (but am sure you know) from having been in the position of training juniors that seniors can also take something from training the lower ranks, you get to test your own knowledge and understanding of techniques when you are trying to teach them to others and when others with a new mind set start asking you unexpected questions at times.  I think both teacher and student benefit from the process.


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## Transk53 (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So, based on the replies I've come to a conclusion which I had already thought of beforehand, I just wanted to confirm it. *People choose a style or styles to train in because they like the content of the style and they like the techniques and the method of the style, not because it has ranks or doesn't have ranks*. There are some people that just don't care much for rank and that doesn't mean they're vehemently against rank or styles that use it to the point that they would never train in a style that has rank, they just don't pursue it that much if their style does have rank. That makes sense and its good to choose a style because you like the content of it not because it uses or doesn't use rank. But aside from that, if you do train in a style that does use rank, it does have to be enough of a priority that you eventually pursue it if you want to take your training to the next level.




Yes in an ideal world. However depending on where someone is, choice maybe limited to what is available. That is obvious, but not whether a person will be suited to that particular art. I really don't think anybody worth their salt will give a crap about whether they reach Black belt grading quickly, or in perceived or specified time frame. If they did, doubt they would last five minutes with that attitude.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes. Sometimes a much higher ranking student will work with a much lower ranking student. In a case like that the higher ranking student tones it down to match the level of the lower ranking student and the idea is for the higher ranking student to help out the lower ranking student. But, most of the time you will be training with somebody at or around your same rank. That way you don't have to tone it down.



That may be the case for you, but not for me. As I said, I train with *everybody*. At any given moment I'm just as likely to be working with a white belt as with a black belt. More likely, in fact, since there are more white belts to work with than there are black belts.


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## Spinedoc (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes. Sometimes a much higher ranking student will work with a much lower ranking student. In a case like that the higher ranking student tones it down to match the level of the lower ranking student and the idea is for the higher ranking student to help out the lower ranking student. But, most of the time you will be training with somebody at or around your same rank. That way you don't have to tone it down.



Not in either of my arts. When we train Aikido, there may be everything from a 5th or 6th kyu on the mat to a nidan. They are all expected to train together and do the same techniques....Same with MSR. Sensei will demonstrate the technique...he will turn, look at everyone and motion to practice. You then take turns being uke or nage and do 2 techniques on each side, alternating every fourth between uke and nage roles, until Sensei claps. You will practice 2 separate techniques with each partner, and then it is expected that you change partners. YMMV.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> I really don't think anybody worth their salt will give a crap about whether they reach Black belt grading quickly, or in perceived or specified time frame. If they did, doubt they would last five minutes with that attitude.



A common question asked by perspective students is how long it generally takes to get a black belt and although the actual time varies from student to student, most instructors will mention an average.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That may be the case for you, but not for me. As I said, I train with *everybody*. At any given moment I'm just as likely to be working with a white belt as with a black belt. More likely, in fact, since there are more white belts to work with than there are black belts.



Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.


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## Dirty Dog (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. *The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. *So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.



This is, as always, where you have it wrong. You continue to equate rank with skill. That's not the way it works. 
The only way to train with people who don't hold back is to get your skill to the same level as theirs. 
See how it works? Skill. Not rank. If your skills are there, the other person won't be holding back. Regardless of rank.


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## jks9199 (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.


I feel sorry for you; your training experience seems to have been so sadly limited by this focus on hierarchy and rank.

In most of the training situations I've been in -- we train across the belt levels.  The same lesson is taught (once the newest members have some basic skills, of course), and students are expected to learn it at their own level.  Seniors are expected towork with juniors, and everyone is expected to work with different training partners often.  In fact, I often put a senior student with a newer student deliberately.  The junior gets the benefit of the senior's ability to demonstrate and help them learn while the senior is forced to dig into the exercise to understand it in order to do this, and they get to see people "attack them wrong" or otherwise do unexpected things.  It's not holding back or anything like that...  it's training.  That's not to say that you should never work with people at least as skilled as you, if not better...  but that your focus is on the rank, and not the lesson.  Or at least that's how you're coming across...


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## Tony Dismukes (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.


When you say "hold back" I assume you are talking about sparring, since drilling reps of techniques is the same regardless of your partner's rank.

In BJJ, the degree to which you "hold back" isn't really based on your partner's belt rank. It's based on the entire picture of the individuals involved and your goals for the current sparring session. If I'm rolling with another 50 year old black belt and we're both nursing injuries and we're both just wanting to warm up and knock off some rust, then I'll probably be going very light. Contrariwise, if I'm rolling with a white belt who is 240 pounds of solid muscle and who has a wrestling background and is trying to rip my head off, then I'm going to have to go a bit harder.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Seniors are expected towork with juniors, and everyone is expected to work with different training partners often.  In fact, I often put a senior student with a newer student deliberately.  The junior gets the benefit of the senior's ability to demonstrate and help them learn while the senior is forced to dig into the exercise to understand it in order to do this, and they get to see people "attack them wrong" or otherwise do unexpected things.  It's not holding back or anything like that...  it's training.  That's not to say that you should never work with people at least as skilled as you, if not better...  but that your focus is on the rank, and not the lesson.  Or at least that's how you're coming across...



If this involves drill work that has to do with blocking and countering I don't think the senior will throw techniques beyond what the junior can handle. Striking drills where you hold a bag that your partner hits, a senior student will not hit full force since the junior student will not be able to handle the impact. Senior students working with junior students is good for the reasons you mentioned and we do a certain amount of it too, but a senior student should also be working with other senior students and people at their same level who can go all out.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is, as always, where you have it wrong. You continue to equate rank with skill. That's not the way it works.
> The only way to train with people who don't hold back is to get your skill to the same level as theirs.
> See how it works? Skill. Not rank. If your skills are there, the other person won't be holding back. Regardless of rank.



And usually a person with a high level of skill would not be at a low rank, or they wouldn't stay at a low rank.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> When you say "hold back" I assume you are talking about sparring, since drilling reps of techniques is the same regardless of your partner's rank.


Sparring yes but most drills also. Lots of the drills we do involve blocking and countering and taking impact when a partner hits a striking pad. For an advanced student to go all out with such drills, a beginner would not be able to handle it.


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## Dirty Dog (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> And usually a person with a high level of skill would not be at a low rank, or they wouldn't stay at a low rank.



Unless... (drum roll please).... they're more interested in skill than rank. As has been pointed out more times than I care to remember.
You have an obsession with rank. It's not shared by most people here, and certainly not by the most experienced people here.
You've started thread after thread after thread to try to justify this obsession. Maybe it's time to just get over it?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> If this involves drill work that has to do with blocking and countering I don't think the senior will throw techniques beyond what the junior can handle.



For blocking and countering drills, I throw techniques with whatever speed and power the individual partner is able to handle, based on their skill, speed, size, mental toughness, enthusiasm, etc. It's not based on their belt rank. (Belt rank might provide a clue as to their skill level if I didn't already know them, but I'll adjust the intensity up or downwards based on their actual ability as I determine it.)



PhotonGuy said:


> Striking drills where you hold a bag that your partner hits, a senior student will not hit full force since the junior student will not be able to handle the impact.



Seriously? Holding a bag or pad isn't that hard. You don't need black belt skill to handle the impact of holding a bag for a black belt. Relative size has a lot more to do with it.


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## donald1 (May 20, 2015)

Agreed, and it helps for the person holding the bag to be in a good stance too


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## Spinedoc (May 20, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Unless... (drum roll please).... they're more interested in skill than rank. As has been pointed out more times than I care to remember.
> You have an obsession with rank. It's not shared by most people here, and certainly not by the most experienced people here.
> You've started thread after thread after thread to try to justify this obsession. Maybe it's time to just get over it?




Yep, the most senior student in our dojo has actually been eligbile to test for shodan since 2009. He simply hasn't because he doesn't really care if he reaches it or not....that's not why he trains. He actually, because of a lot of daito ryu training prior to aikido, has actually studied longer and in some ways has more skill than our sensei.

Not everyone cares at all about rank. It's not very high on my radar.

Mike


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## Transk53 (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> A common question asked by perspective students is how long it generally takes to get a black belt and although the actual time varies from student to student, most instructors will mention an average.



Okay, on average how many do make Black belt, out of that school average?


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## Shai Hulud (May 20, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Okay, on average how many do make Black belt, out of that school average?


A safe estimate would be less than half.


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## jks9199 (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> If this involves drill work that has to do with blocking and countering I don't think the senior will throw techniques beyond what the junior can handle. Striking drills where you hold a bag that your partner hits, a senior student will not hit full force since the junior student will not be able to handle the impact. Senior students working with junior students is good for the reasons you mentioned and we do a certain amount of it too, but a senior student should also be working with other senior students and people at their same level who can go all out.


No.  A good senior will throw some stuff that's easy, some that's just aboutique at his limit, and occasionally, beyond.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Unless... (drum roll please).... they're more interested in skill than rank. As has been pointed out more times than I care to remember.
> You have an obsession with rank. It's not shared by most people here, and certainly not by the most experienced people here.
> You've started thread after thread after thread to try to justify this obsession. Maybe it's time to just get over it?



Unless you go to a place that has cheap belts with cheap requirements (and I will admit you find a lot of those) you're not going to find anybody with a high rank if they don't have the high skill level to go with it because a high level of skill would be required for a high rank. I thought at your place people were told when they were ready and they then more or less put on a demonstration and got their next belt. Even somebody who doesn't particularly care about rank I wouldn't see them turning that down if they were told they were ready. Somebody with a high level of skill who stays at a low rank, as I described above that can lead to complications if your skill far exceeds your rank.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> For blocking and countering drills, I throw techniques with whatever speed and power the individual partner is able to handle, based on their skill, speed, size, mental toughness, enthusiasm, etc. It's not based on their belt rank. (Belt rank might provide a clue as to their skill level if I didn't already know them, but I'll adjust the intensity up or downwards based on their actual ability as I determine it.)


Well let me ask you this, at your place a student with a high degree of skill, speed, mental toughness, and enthusiasm, would they be at a low belt? Or would they stay at a low belt?



Tony Dismukes said:


> Seriously? Holding a bag or pad isn't that hard. You don't need black belt skill to handle the impact of holding a bag for a black belt. Relative size has a lot more to do with it.



The way we do it, there is a special technique to holding the bag (or punching block as we call it) where you let it hit you and you learn to tighten up at impact and take the blow. Its supposed to increase your ability to take hits, much like some of the drills boxers do with medicine balls where they have somebody throw the ball into their stomach and they catch it while taking the impact. It does take a certain amount of skill to properly do it and it takes lots of practice to get good at it. That is why you don't hit the bag too hard if a beginner is holding it and just learning the skill behind it.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Okay, on average how many do make Black belt, out of that school average?



The question lots of prospective students ask would be more like, "Those students who do make black belt, on the average how long does it take?"


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> A safe estimate would be less than half.


From my experience, its much less than half as martial arts has a high turnover rate.


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## Zero (May 21, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. *The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. *So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.



People have commented on this one a lot already but I gotta also add, this is just plain not the case. 

Even if the white belt/junior is coming at it from a lower skill level, you can have people who are very focused on kumite (or kata) tournaments (or just want to excel outside of a tournament environment) and want to get pushed to the limit and beyond to up their skills and ability. As long as they are doing so for the right reasons and are up to it (and most senseis and good experienced seniors will be able to determine that fairly quickly), seniors may well spar and train with them at a far higher level. 

Also, seniors may want to, and hopefully do, up the anty with juniors to see what they can take and are capable of...if things look a bit too much, then a good senior will of course throttle it down again (that should go without saying!!).  It is a great school that realises that everyone, at all levels, is of different ability in different areas and brings different levels of aptitude with them to class.  Again, I have always loved the tournament environment (that's just me) and when I crossed over to karate I started at white/yellow but wanted to be pushed on the competition/fight side of things and got served by the sensei that focused on fighting/competition as much as I could handle. I used to go home at night beaten to hell at first (which I was fine with) but I adapted quickly and my karate game improved exponentially from mixing it with those that had been there and done that.

I think it is the wrong approach to just keep people of the same level primarily training with their peers, the only way to really up your game (be it kata, kumite or whatever) is to play and train with the "big boys".


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## Jaeimseu (May 21, 2015)

What's telling to me is the use of the term "high rank" in reference to Taekwondo color belts. To me, anything less than 4th Dan is a "low" rank. In certain schools, I'd say maybe under 3rd Dan. I think time consistently training is a much better metric. A belt rank is good for a quick reference, but that's about it. In fact, at my dojang there are no rank stripes on the black belts, so no one really knows what Dan anyone is without asking. And people seldom ask.


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## MJS (May 23, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well the thing is, if you do train at a dojo that has ranks, if you stay at a low rank for too long it can cause complications. With higher ranks its not such a problem but staying at low ranks overly long can cause complications with the training.



What types of complications?  The only complications I can think of would be that someone is getting frustrated because they're not advancing.  Is that what you're talking about?  If so, well, I'll call BS on that, because the goal should be learning the art, and getting as good as you can...not worrying what color belt you're wearing or why you're not advancing with Joe, because you both started at the same time, and he tested and you didn't.  Those are all BS excuses from people who are more concerned with belts than anything else.


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## PhotonGuy (May 23, 2015)

MJS said:


> What types of complications?  The only complications I can think of would be that someone is getting frustrated because they're not advancing.  Is that what you're talking about?  If so, well, I'll call BS on that, because the goal should be learning the art, and getting as good as you can...not worrying what color belt you're wearing or why you're not advancing with Joe, because you both started at the same time, and he tested and you didn't.  Those are all BS excuses from people who are more concerned with belts than anything else.



Well for one thing you're not going to learn more advanced techniques, particularly katas, if you perpetually stay at a low rank. As I said, staying at a rank indefinitely isn't such a problem with higher belts, somebody on this thread mentioned a student who was eligible to test for Shodan for years but hasn't because they just don't care to test for it. Well, if he's eligible to test for Shodan than he would probably be a brown belt as that's a common belt that lots of schools use right before Shodan. At a belt such as brown not advancing isn't a problem and I know students at my dojo who are at brown and have stopped testing beyond that because they just don't care for rank anymore. At lower belts, though, as I said you are not going to learn more advanced techniques, you are not going to learn more advanced katas, and senior students are more likely to hold back when working with you than if you had a higher rank. There was this one guy at my dojo who was a white belt for about a year as he didn't care to test. He was finally encouraged to test and he passed and got promoted, but being a white belt for as long as he was, it was hindering his progress.


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## ballen0351 (May 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well for one thing you're not going to learn more advanced techniques, particularly katas, if you perpetually stay at a low rank. As I said, staying at a rank indefinitely isn't such a problem with higher belts, somebody on this thread mentioned a student who was eligible to test for Shodan for years but hasn't because they just don't care to test for it. Well, if he's eligible to test for Shodan than he would probably be a brown belt as that's a common belt that lots of schools use right before Shodan. At a belt such as brown not advancing isn't a problem and I know students at my dojo who are at brown and have stopped testing beyond that because they just don't care for rank anymore. At lower belts, though, as I said you are not going to learn more advanced techniques, you are not going to learn more advanced katas, and senior students are more likely to hold back when working with you than if you had a higher rank. There was this one guy at my dojo who was a white belt for about a year as he didn't care to test. He was finally encouraged to test and he passed and got promoted, but being a white belt for as long as he was, it was hindering his progress.


If you have a good instructor ranks won't matter.  They teach what your ready to learn regardless of rank.  I've been taught many kata or techniques far beyond my actual belt color.  I'm taught the system as I learn one thing and get good my teacher starts teaching me the next and so on and so on.  He nor I care about my belt color.  We have had 4th kyu come train in the black belt only classes because they were ready to learn what we were working on.  I was learning black belt level kata as a 5th kyu because I saw my teacher working on it before class and asked questions about it.  He thought I could do it so he taught me.  
I still have never tested for rank in my Judo classes and I train in the brown and  lack belt classes.  My teacher stopped asking me to test because I keep giving him the same answer "I'm here to learn not compete so I don't need a belt"  he doesn't teach for the color of the belt he teaches what I'm ready to learn


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> If you have a good instructor ranks won't matter.  They teach what your ready to learn regardless of rank.  I've been taught many kata or techniques far beyond my actual belt color.  I'm taught the system as I learn one thing and get good my teacher starts teaching me the next and so on and so on.  He nor I care about my belt color.  We have had 4th kyu come train in the black belt only classes because they were ready to learn what we were working on.  I was learning black belt level kata as a 5th kyu because I saw my teacher working on it before class and asked questions about it.  He thought I could do it so he taught me.
> I still have never tested for rank in my Judo classes and I train in the brown and  lack belt classes.  My teacher stopped asking me to test because I keep giving him the same answer "I'm here to learn not compete so I don't need a belt"  he doesn't teach for the color of the belt he teaches what I'm ready to learn



They must do it differently where you go. Usually you don't learn techniques or forms far beyond your belt and most of the time they never let lower belts into black belt only classes at places that have such classes. Your instructor sounds like somebody who could run a place without rank. Some schools and some styles don't use rank, have you considered training in a place like that?


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## ballen0351 (May 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> They must do it differently where you go. Usually you don't learn techniques or forms far beyond your belt and most of the time they never let lower belts into black belt only classes at places that have such classes.


Every place I've ever trained has allowed people who were mature enough to be in higher level classes participate in higher level classes as long as they can keep up.  


> Your instructor sounds like somebody who could run a place without rank. Some schools and some styles don't use rank, have you considered training in a place like that?


Why would I want to change I like where I am.  I train at a place with rank but rank isn't important most of the time we don't even wear belts in class.  We only use rank because the umbrella organization sets the basic syllabus and when we train with other school we need to follow headquarters rules.  But when it's just us we just train


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## Mark Lynn (May 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> They must do it differently where you go. Usually you don't learn techniques or forms far beyond your belt and most of the time they never let lower belts into black belt only classes at places that have such classes. Your instructor sounds like somebody who could run a place without rank. Some schools and some styles don't use rank, have you considered training in a place like that?



Photon in regards to your reply to Ballen0351 above, why should he consider or want to train in a different place?  I mean he (from the sounds of his post) is training where his sensei listens to him and his needs/wants etc. etc. and doesn't hold back teaching him.  From the sounds of it his instructor is teaching him correctly not worrying about the color of the belt but rather looking at the student as an individual instead of just another belt.

There are many different approaches to teaching, in my American karate class that I teach I have all kids (ages 6-teens).  OK those classes are broke up by rank and age for ease of teaching for my benefit.   However if I identify a student who is really putting forth their best effort and is more skilled than their classmates I'll move them up to the next class, I'll even teach them a higher level kata if they have the kata they need for their next rank down (well enough to pass that part of their next belt exam).  Or I'll teach them a kata (or anyo) from say Modern Arnis that is different than their karate/TKD kata to further educate them.

However in my Modern Arnis class if a student (either a kid or an adult) gets a particular drill down, or a disarm down, I'll show them variations of the drill or techniques so they continue to grow even if it isn't part of the "curriculum", or for their next belt level.  It might be even from another FMA and not form Modern Arnis.

My karate/TKD class has a much more linear approach to learning (you do A before you learn B, C D, etc. etc.) and the Modern Arnis class has a much more circular approach in that you learn this concept and it might be expressed or displayed in these formats (double stick, single stick, empty hand, or we might throw in espada y daga, or knife or even express it in a drill I learn from a completely different style of FMA).  In my Modern Arnis program it is much smaller so everyone works together beginners and advanced, it is broken up only by juniors and adults.

There is also the rotating curriculum format where all students learn this material for this time period, next session it rotates and all students learn the next bit, even brand new students.  For instance where in my karate program they learn kata XYZ for yellow, gold and orange belts, in a rotating curriculum student A might come in when you are teaching kata Z, that's OK because the next session student A will be learning kata X and then in the next session kata Y and so on.

Different teachers have different methods, in your school a person who has high skill but low rank might be a problem, but in many of the other schools that people have talked about, that really isn't a problem.   Their schools have found a way around it.


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## jks9199 (May 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> They must do it differently where you go. Usually you don't learn techniques or forms far beyond your belt and most of the time they never let lower belts into black belt only classes at places that have such classes. Your instructor sounds like somebody who could run a place without rank. Some schools and some styles don't use rank, have you considered training in a place like that?


Again, all I can say is that your training experience has been sadly limited by this focus on rank and hierarchy.  Many schools don't run seperate classes for each belt level; they train, and sometimes break out to work on things that are more segregated, like particular forms that might benefit from being taught in a particular sequence.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Every place I've ever trained has allowed people who were mature enough to be in higher level classes participate in higher level classes as long as they can keep up.


Most places I've trained at allow that too to some extent. Generally, everywhere I've been doesn't have higher level classes but its not uncommon for lower ranking students to sometimes learn more advanced techniques but they're not going to learn much more advanced techniques until they advance in rank, that's how it is where I go. 



ballen0351 said:


> Why would I want to change I like where I am.  I train at a place with rank but rank isn't important most of the time we don't even wear belts in class.  We only use rank because the umbrella organization sets the basic syllabus and when we train with other school we need to follow headquarters rules.  But when it's just us we just train


So it sounds like at your place that rank isn't taken too seriously and they would just as well get rid of it entirely but that they have to keep it because of the organization that they're a smaller part of, but they don't use it if they don't have to. So its almost like a place that doesn't use rank.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2015)

Mark Lynn said:


> There are many different approaches to teaching, in my American karate class that I teach I have all kids (ages 6-teens).  OK those classes are broke up by rank and age for ease of teaching for my benefit.   However if I identify a student who is really putting forth their best effort and is more skilled than their classmates I'll move them up to the next class, I'll even teach them a higher level kata if they have the kata they need for their next rank down (well enough to pass that part of their next belt exam).  Or I'll teach them a kata (or anyo) from say Modern Arnis that is different than their karate/TKD kata to further educate them.


Learning more advanced techniques and even more advanced kata isn't too uncommon. When I was a green belt I learned the kata for the next belt, blue belt, but in addition to that I also learned the kata for purple belt which comes after blue while still a green belt. But you are not going to learn katas or techniques that are that much more advanced. A white belt is not going to know brown belt katas. And besides, as this one instructor said, part of the glory of advancing in rank is learning the new kata for the next rank. If you know too many advanced katas you don't experience that.



Mark Lynn said:


> However in my Modern Arnis class if a student (either a kid or an adult) gets a particular drill down, or a disarm down, I'll show them variations of the drill or techniques so they continue to grow even if it isn't part of the "curriculum", or for their next belt level.  It might be even from another FMA and not form Modern Arnis.


I wasn't sure Arnis had a ranking system. But like I said its not uncommon to learn more advanced stuff to some extent. And sometimes its good to cross train with techniques from other systems.



Mark Lynn said:


> Different teachers have different methods, in your school a person who has high skill but low rank might be a problem, but in many of the other schools that people have talked about, that really isn't a problem.   Their schools have found a way around it.


I see. Well schools that have found a way around it, they might have various reasons for still using rank such as what Ballen0351 had said about his school belonging to a larger organization where using rank is mandatory, but is there any other reasons a school might still use rank if they've found ways around it?


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Again, all I can say is that your training experience has been sadly limited by this focus on rank and hierarchy.  Many schools don't run seperate classes for each belt level; they train, and sometimes break out to work on things that are more segregated, like particular forms that might benefit from being taught in a particular sequence.



Well let me ask you this, do you think they should get rid of letter grades in school? (A, B, C, D, F) Sometimes I thought those were more trouble than they're worth. And this question is for everybody.


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## ballen0351 (May 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well let me ask you this, do you think they should get rid of letter grades in school? (A, B, C, D, F) Sometimes I thought those were more trouble than they're worth. And this question is for everybody.


Actually my kids school has gotten rid of grades.  You are marked Satisfactory,  meets minimums, needs improvement, or unsatisfactory.  I don't necessarily agree with it but that's how they are graded they don't have a,b,c,d grades


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## Gnarlie (May 24, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Actually my kids school has gotten rid of grades.  You are marked Satisfactory,  meets minimums, needs improvement, or unsatisfactory.  I don't necessarily agree with it but that's how they are graded they don't have a,b,c,d grades


What kind of shiny-arsed clerk came up with those definitions?? Highly inspiring for a child to work their little butt off only to achieve 'Satisfactory'. Awful, awful word, for bureaucrats and clipboard-toting  auditors who think they know best, and that everybody else is there to satisfy their criteria. Ugh. Rant over.


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## ballen0351 (May 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> What kind of shiny-arsed clerk came up with those definitions?? Highly inspiring for a child to work their little butt off only to achieve 'Satisfactory'. Awful, awful word, for bureaucrats and clipboard-toting  auditors who think they know best, and that everybody else is there to satisfy their criteria. Ugh. Rant over.


Oh don't get me started.  The entire school system is loosing it's mind.  If a kid is bad they can't make them sit in class during recess because of some federal regulation about kids needing exercise everyday. So basically kids get to do what they want.  A friend of mine is quiting teaching all together after 4 years because he can't take the BS anymore.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> What kind of shiny-arsed clerk came up with those definitions?? Highly inspiring for a child to work their little butt off only to achieve 'Satisfactory'. Awful, awful word, for bureaucrats and clipboard-toting  auditors who think they know best, and that everybody else is there to satisfy their criteria. Ugh. Rant over.



You could say the same thing about letter grades. A child could work their little butt off and only achieve a C which is supposed to mean satisfactory, or even if the child gets a B that can be seen as a low grade because its not the almighty A. I've heard people say, "B is for bum."


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## jks9199 (May 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well let me ask you this, do you think they should get rid of letter grades in school? (A, B, C, D, F) Sometimes I thought those were more trouble than they're worth. And this question is for everybody.


Irrelevant.  We're not talking about a classroom, or basic education.  That said... there's an argument to be made for recognizing mastery rather than grades, since the meaning of an A which once meant that the student went significantly beyond the minimum requirements to meaning that the student showed up...  In way to many classrooms today, the "gentleman's C" for doing the required work and not looking deeper has become an A...


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## tshadowchaser (May 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well for one thing you're not going to learn more advanced techniques, particularly katas, if you perpetually stay at a low rank.



Actually not true:  I have been in at least 3 different schools that will teach a form/kata to the whole class in attendance no matter what rank and tell them " this is a X rank form learn it you will need it for that rank"

Some people do not want the rank for a verity of reasons and some instructors respect those reasons but still give advance instruction knowing the person could be a higher rank if they wanted to test


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Irrelevant.  We're not talking about a classroom, or basic education.  That said... there's an argument to be made for recognizing mastery rather than grades, since the meaning of an A which once meant that the student went significantly beyond the minimum requirements to meaning that the student showed up...  In way to many classrooms today, the "gentleman's C" for doing the required work and not looking deeper has become an A...



That depends where you get the A or the C. If you go to a really tough private prep school what would be an A in the standard level of public school would be a C there. 

I know this guy in my town who was a straight A student and top of the class at his public school, he then transferred to this really hard private school where he was a B and C student and at the middle of his class.


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## Gnarlie (May 25, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> You could say the same thing about letter grades. A child could work their little butt off and only achieve a C which is supposed to mean satisfactory, or even if the child gets a B that can be seen as a low grade because its not the almighty A. I've heard people say, "B is for bum."


It's different. The letter grades don't say anything other than a letter. It is the use of the word 'satisfactory' as the highest achievable result that irks me. Why not 'Exceptional' or some other positive superlative, rather than some arrogant suited ninny assessing your work and saying 'yes, you may have tried hard but by my standard even the best work is only satisfactory.'

A child that gets a B or C at least has the opportunity to get an A. When satisfactory is the best result possible, it isn't exactly motivating.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 25, 2015)

In some systems (such as the Shuai Chiao - Chinese wrestling), since the defense and counters are the 3rd degree black belt testing requirement, the beginners won't learn it until they have passed the 1st degree black belt.

The rank can be used to control the teaching. The students have to be good in "offense" before they can get into "defense". It makes no sense for students to learn how to counter a "hip throw" if they are not good to use it.

Also if you include the tournament record as part of your ranking test requirement, you can force your students to compete in tournaments.


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## PhotonGuy (May 26, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Also if you include the tournament record as part of your ranking test requirement, you can force your students to compete in tournaments.



There are some systems where rank advancement is mostly or almost entirely through tournament performance. For instance, Judo in the USA, if your dojo functions as part of the USAJF than you get belts by competing in tournaments and winning matches. I do believe though that your sensei can promote you independently of the USAJF tournaments up to the level of high brown but to get a black belt under USAJF rules it has to be done through tournaments.

But, as its been pointed out here many times there are some people who just don't care about rank and in cases like that, you're not going to force them to go to tournaments by requiring it as part of rank advancement, not if they aren't interested in rank advancement in the first place.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 27, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some systems where rank advancement is mostly or almost entirely through tournament performance. For instance, Judo in the USA, if your dojo functions as part of the USAJF than you get belts by competing in tournaments and winning matches. I do believe though that your sensei can promote you independently of the USAJF tournaments up to the level of high brown but to get a black belt under USAJF rules it has to be done through tournaments.
> 
> But, as its been pointed out here many times there are some people who just don't care about rank and in cases like that, you're not going to force them to go to tournaments by requiring it as part of rank advancement, not if they aren't interested in rank advancement in the first place.


The ACSCA has similar policy. A local instructor can only promote his students to the blue belt level. In order to offer a black belt to any student, 3 ACSCA instructors' signature will be required. IMO, this is a pretty good quality control policy.

If someone is a ACSCA member and if he is not interested in ranking, he will never become a qualified instructor through ACSCA. That's just the ACSCA policy. All ACSCA qualified instructors

- will teach students who is not interested in ranking, but
- won't teach students who won't compete in tournament.

One policy has been changed in ACSCA lately. In the past, the

- 1st degree black belt will require skill testing.
- 2nd degree black belt will require tournament record.

Since the 1st degree black belt usually will take about 6 years. If some students started their training late, after 6 years they may be too old to compete in tournament. In order to solve that problem, the ACSCA can switch the 1st degree black belt testing and the 2nd degree black belt testing. This will encourage members to test their skill in tournament when they are still young.


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## Zero (May 27, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So it sounds like at your place that rank isn't taken too seriously and they would just as well get rid of it entirely but that they have to keep it because of the organization that they're a smaller part of, but they don't use it if they don't have to. So its almost like a place that doesn't use rank.



I can't really speak  for Ballen but his description of his class fits very close to my old goju ryu club and quite close to my current goju club.  And again, I am not sure you are interpreting this correctly...It is not at all that the rank itself is not taken seriously and clearly while in the dojo and regarding all things goju I personally respect my sensei and his rank - to the extent that his ability (and knowledge - and skill at imparting that knowledge to me) actually is reflective of his rank.  It is just that the rank is not focused on and is not seen as a "bar" in itself in preventing "juniors" from interacting with and learning from seniors or in preventing different belt levels from sparring with each other.  Sparring and training with juniors is a great way of contributing and putting something back into the life blood of the school that benefits you so much.

As someone (maybe Ballen or JKS) said, a lot can come simply from the maturity and previous experience of the student and not just their belt colour.  You can have a lower belt miles ahead of a senior in fighting skill and/or ability while the senior may be far more experienced in application and depth of techniques. 

A senior can be working with a junior on a lock or throw and a junior with a different background can say, "hey, have you thought about applying that lock like this, this is how they do it in [judo] and maybe it seems more efficient?"...that's a pretty open minded MA environment, I'd admit to that.  But those schools are definitely out there, again, normally they have senseis that have nothing to prove anymore and have checked their own ego at the door.  But why would you want to change from that type of school to a strictly structured and regimented environment (kind of like yours by the sound of things...)?


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## mattp1511 (May 27, 2015)

One of the Best Karate Senseis I ever knew was 4th dan in one style, 2nd in another, but he hadn't actually achieved a dan grade in the style he was teaching us. He had been doing this style for a good ten years! One evening the subject of belts and grading came up, and someone pointed out that if we achieved a dan grade in this style, we would 'outrank' the Sensei. He didn't care, and his reasoning for not grading to first dan, was that he liked his red/black block belt! This opened my eyes to the relevance of the colour, and to this day, my training is about me. My body, my mind, my wellbeing, not the colour that everyone else can see. In all the styles ive ever done, (ok, three! Lol) i can't remember a single move where i check what belt I'm wearing. Just a thought.


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## PhotonGuy (May 28, 2015)

mattp1511 said:


> One of the Best Karate Senseis I ever knew was 4th dan in one style, 2nd in another, but he hadn't actually achieved a dan grade in the style he was teaching us. He had been doing this style for a good ten years! One evening the subject of belts and grading came up, and someone pointed out that if we achieved a dan grade in this style, we would 'outrank' the Sensei. He didn't care, and his reasoning for not grading to first dan, was that he liked his red/black block belt! This opened my eyes to the relevance of the colour, and to this day, my training is about me. My body, my mind, my wellbeing, not the colour that everyone else can see. In all the styles ive ever done, (ok, three! Lol) i can't remember a single move where i check what belt I'm wearing. Just a thought.



So he liked the look of the belt? Well just because you like the color of your belt doesn't mean you don't have to test for a higher belt. If you're teaching, you can always wear a lower colored belt and your higher colored belt you can stash it in the closet, hang it on the wall, ect. I know a case of this guy who wears this armband he really likes which he got in Muai Thai. Now, usually Muai Thai does not use any ranking system but there are some organizations that do use arm bands to designate rank. This one instructor, he had this special arm band that he liked for some reason, it had some kind of sentimental value such as he might've won a really good fight while wearing it. Anyway, it was not the highest colored armband he had but he would wear it when he trained for that reason.


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## mattp1511 (May 28, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So he liked the look of the belt? Well just because you like the color of your belt doesn't mean you don't have to test for a higher belt. If you're teaching, you can always wear a lower colored belt and your higher colored belt you can stash it in the closet, hang it on the wall, ect. I know a case of this guy who wears this armband he really likes which he got in Muai Thai. Now, usually Muai Thai does not use any ranking system but there are some organizations that do use arm bands to designate rank. This one instructor, he had this special arm band that he liked for some reason, it had some kind of sentimental value such as he might've won a really good fight while wearing it. Anyway, it was not the highest colored armband he had but he would wear it when he trained for that reason.



Without wishing to turn this into an argument,  which rule says you 'have to' attempt a higher belt? Is martial arts not about the individual?  The whole point of liking the belt he had was that he was satisfied with his accomplishment, something i personally would never question.  His ability and technique was so amazing to watch, you could actually share his passion for his art just by watching him work, hense to this day he will always be my most admired martial artist. If your goal is to achieve the highest rank you can, then good on you. I wish you well and i believe if you are determined to achieve it I'm sure you will. But I'm sorry to say i don't share your ambition for status. We are all here because we share a passion for martial arts. And in the spirit of that shared passion,  we should never question eachothers ideals or purposes (unless that ideal is evil or negative!  I'm sure we'd all have something to say about that!)


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## PhotonGuy (May 28, 2015)

mattp1511 said:


> Without wishing to turn this into an argument,  which rule says you 'have to' attempt a higher belt? Is martial arts not about the individual?  The whole point of liking the belt he had was that he was satisfied with his accomplishment, something i personally would never question.  His ability and technique was so amazing to watch, you could actually share his passion for his art just by watching him work, hense to this day he will always be my most admired martial artist. If your goal is to achieve the highest rank you can, then good on you. I wish you well and i believe if you are determined to achieve it I'm sure you will. But I'm sorry to say i don't share your ambition for status. We are all here because we share a passion for martial arts. And in the spirit of that shared passion,  we should never question eachothers ideals or purposes (unless that ideal is evil or negative!  I'm sure we'd all have something to say about that!)



There is no rule that says you have to attempt a higher belt but there is no rule that says you shouldn't attempt a higher belt either. Im just pointing that out, that just because you like a particular belt or armband or any other symbol of rank doesn't mean you don't have to attempt to attain a higher rank. If you're instructor is satisfied with the belt he's got and doesn't care to pursue any higher rank than good for him.


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