# wing chun and wing tsun



## Thewayofthewarriorispeace (Sep 23, 2006)

Ok, I keep seeing all of this stuff on how "wing tsun is better, more organized, blah blah blah than wing chun"  Then I hear wing chun and wing tsun/ving tsun are the exact same system just different pronounciation.  Could somebody please break down the differences for me? I dont care which is "better" just tell me how they can be so different?


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 23, 2006)

All Wing Chun is good, its base on who taught you and how good their wing chun fundamental are.  Through all the years I have been training wing chun (27 years), the deferents in the spelling is nothing more then marketing ploys. Leung Ting trademarked the ving tsun spelling and William Cheung Trademarked the wing chun spelling. It just marketing thats all.


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## Thewayofthewarriorispeace (Sep 23, 2006)

Ok...hehe...I just found a huge thread about this topic...haha Im beginning to understand all of the politic BS.  Thanks for your answer!


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 23, 2006)

Thewayofthewarriorispeace said:


> Ok...hehe...I just found a huge thread about this topic...haha Im beginning to understand all of the politic BS. Thanks for your answer!


 
Thats no problem.


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 24, 2006)

The WC/WT thing has been around for a long time, essentially you will find that the WT difference goes beyond mere diferences in romanised spelling, there is a distinct flavour to WT that is essentially different to Ving Tsun. Wing Tsun is Leung Tings own interpretation of the art.


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## marcus_p (Sep 24, 2006)

Ali,

I agree with your points about who one's teacher is and the marketting realities of Martial Arts. However, your assertion that Sifu William Cheung tradmarked Wing Chun, to the best of my knowledge is incorrect. Can you offer any proof?  

/Marcus



Ali Rahim said:


> All Wing Chun is good, it&#8217;s base on who taught you and how good their wing chun fundamental are.  Through all the years I have been training wing chun (27 years), the deferent&#8217;s in the spelling is nothing more then marketing ploys. Leung Ting trademarked the ving tsun spelling and William Cheung Trademarked the wing chun spelling. It just marketing that&#8217;s all.


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## ed-swckf (Sep 24, 2006)

marcus_p said:


> Ali,
> 
> I agree with your points about who one's teacher is and the marketting realities of Martial Arts. However, your assertion that Sifu William Cheung tradmarked Wing Chun, to the best of my knowledge is incorrect. Can you offer any proof?
> 
> /Marcus


 
I believe its the title "traditional wing chun" that he laid claim to however i do not believe it to be officially trademarked but it has come to be descriptive of the william cheung way of doing things.


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 24, 2006)

marcus_p said:


> Ali,
> 
> Ting schools and both trademark their names like any good school should,by them being the first to actually trademark the name wing chun in there way of spelling, they own the rights, and can sue accordingly.   [/SIZE]


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 24, 2006)

marcus_p said:


> Ali,
> 
> I agree with your points about who one's teacher is and the marketting realities of Martial Arts. However, your assertion that Sifu William Cheung tradmarked Wing Chun, to the best of my knowledge is incorrect. Can you offer any proof?
> 
> /Marcus


 
I don&#8217;t really have proof of this first hand, but I know this to be true coming from the mouths of some of his top students. You know some of them; ask them yourself.  I don&#8217;t think that they have any reason to lie. For over the years it has always had been a known fact. 

I&#8217;ve been in this game for a long time I&#8217;ve seen a lot, back then there were only two school that was worldly known, they were: W Cheung, L Ting schools,. and both trademark their names like any good school should, by them being the first to actually trademark the name wing chun in their way of spelling it and in advertisement, they own the rights. And can sue accordingly. 

Thank you, for listening to &#8220;&#8221;A Moment in History&#8221;

Take care marcus.


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 24, 2006)

*Maybe Ill find some of my old magazines, with there advertisement in them. 
*


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## ed-swckf (Sep 24, 2006)

Ali Rahim said:


> I dont really have proof of this first hand, but I know this to be true coming from the mouths of some of his top students. You know some of them; ask them yourself. I dont think that they have any reason to lie. For over the years it has always had been a known fact.
> 
> Ive been in this game for a long time Ive seen a lot, back then there were only two school that was worldly known, they were: W Cheung, L Ting schools,. and both trademark their names like any good school should, by them being the first to actually trademark the name wing chun in their way of spelling it and in advertisement, they own the rights. And can sue accordingly.
> 
> ...


 
Leung ting trademark yes, william cheung trademark, common myth


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 24, 2006)

ed-swckf said:


> Leung ting trademark yes, william cheung trademark, common myth


 
What makes Leung Ting so holy; that it puts Williams Cheung in the category of mythology, as far as in terms of marketing? The time that all of this stuff was happing, it was three year after your birth. Maybe I miss sometime alone the way, please enlighten  me on the *"common myth," *of &#8220;William Cheung&#8221;. 


Thank you.


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 24, 2006)

ed-swckf said:


> Leung ting trademark yes, william cheung trademark, common myth


 
????????:barf: common myth 
Don&#8217;t worry don&#8217;t worry, I&#8217;ll clean it up!!!


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## profesormental (Sep 25, 2006)

Greetings!

From what I know, the WC was romanized as Ving Tsun in Hong Kong by Yip Man because people joked that it was bathroom kung fu (W.C.) if spelled Wing Chun... which is actually funny.

maybe a myth, yet it makes sense.

MAny people use the romanization Wing Chun, since that way it was brought here by many, thus it is hard to trademark, and many people would've been sued.

WT is trademaked, and is Leung Ting's training system. It is structured to be taught in many schools uniformly. Yet it really tastes like Wing Chun!

Also, the name Wing Chun was identified with William Cheung, yet what he does and what I've been taught, and many that do Wing Chun, is very different.

Many times the difference is in the Sifu that teaches the art, the fellow students that you train with, and your personal effort and thought you put into your training. In the end, that is all that matters.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 25, 2006)

profesormental said:


> Greetings!
> 
> From what I know, the WC was romanized as Ving Tsun in Hong Kong by Yip Man because people joked that it was bathroom kung fu (W.C.) if spelled Wing Chun... which is actually funny.
> 
> ...


 

If someone documents the word &#8220;wing chun&#8221; within their *&#8220;trademark&#8221;*, in which they use in their advertisement, they own the rights; the problem is that it would be a mess if William started to go after anyone, cause it's so many of us using it. It would hurt him more then anyone else. But I can say one thing; William Cheung is a smart man, because he did it first .


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## Ali Rahim (Sep 25, 2006)

profesormental said:


> Greetings!
> 
> maybe a myth, yet it makes sense.


 
Not logical, the trademark or document, brings :barf:"mythology" into reality.


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## ed-swckf (Sep 25, 2006)

Ali Rahim said:


> ????????:barf: common myth
> Dont worry dont worry, Ill clean it up!!!


 
What on earth are you saying here?


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## ed-swckf (Sep 25, 2006)

Ali Rahim said:


> If someone documents the word wing chun within their *trademark*, in which they use in their advertisement, they own the rights; the problem is that it would be a mess if William started to go after anyone, cause it's so many of us using it. It would hurt him more then anyone else. But I can say one thing; William Cheung is a smart man, because he did it first .


 

William cheung couldn't go after or sue anyone for using the term wing chun though.  Or is that what you are saying and i just misunderstood you?


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## Thewayofthewarriorispeace (Sep 25, 2006)

heh...I guess this is a pretty hotly debated subject, kinda like the 'wing chun and grappling' schtick.  Im pretty sure I understand now, but I think that no matter where you go, on either side of the line, there are going to be similarities and differences, depending on the teaching style, who you train with and how much effort you put in (just like professormental said).  I think we can learn from everybody.


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## monji112000 (Sep 29, 2006)

Different spellings are used to show a different lineage:
William Chueng, Leung Ting,Moy yat ect..

its really all silly BS. JMO

If you are more worried about what your "style" is called then maybe you should re-order your priorities. 

Its mostly for Marketing reasons..

Although I have heard/read the story(s) about why some of them changed the spelling.

Why not just make it simple: Leung Ting Wing Chun , Moy Yat Wing chun, Will CH wing Chun ect... 
??


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## PeaceWarrior (Sep 29, 2006)

monji112000 said:


> Why not just make it simple: Leung Ting Wing Chun , Moy Yat Wing chun, Will CH wing Chun ect...
> ??



Good question. Im not sure, but my guess would be because each one of them wanted to claim the only "true" system of Wing Chun, and if they had just put their name in front, it would be like acknowledging other Wing Chun branches as equal.  Cant have that now can we?  like I said, just a guess...


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## nojack (Sep 30, 2006)

Quote:
Why not just make it simple: Leung Ting Wing Chun , Moy Yat Wing chun, Will CH wing Chun ect... 

Fyi:-
That's how they labeled their Kwoons in Hong Kong as SO & SO Wing Chun, and for the rest of the world........ is all marketing strategies, all business.


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## Ali Rahim (Nov 12, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:


> From the rec.martialarts FAQ
> 
> (Contributor: Marty Goldberg - gungfu@csd4.csd.uwm.edu)
> 
> ...


 
When said the same thing as this guys posts did, I lost three reputation marks. But when he repeated what I said, he was praise. I guess it pays to be Marty Goldberg. I really love this post.

Ali.


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## Ali Rahim (Nov 14, 2006)

Oops! I did not notice the date on the post that I quoted.  My bad, I guess they feel the same about his post also. I would like to apologies to you all.  

Ali.


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## Jelik (Nov 20, 2006)

William Chueng, although he potentially has questionable ethics, I do believe "coined-the-phrase" _Traditional Wing Chun_. Not trademarked, however as I understand it, most people in the know understand _Traditional Wing Chun _as his "version".

In my humble opinion, this is how I understand the differences - simply put:

*Traditional Wing Chun* is easiest to recognise by the very different footwork. More mobility, personally find a lot easier to use in a sparring context. For this, it gets a couple of ticks ;-)

*Modified Wing Chun* is brilliant in regards to its forward energy. This is why MWC practitioners kick bottom in chi sao (normally) if up against a TWC practitioner. However in a sparring sense, the TWC person can move around slightly better.

I personally now do Qian Li Dao, which is the best of both worlds. It is TWC in look, with the MWC energy.

Thanks for letting me share ;-)

Stu


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