# Why karate is broken...



## Steve (Jan 9, 2016)

And how to fix it.   Sounds a lot like what k-man and a few others asserted regarding the differences between Japanese and traditional Okinawan karate.   Does this guy have a leg to stand in here?   

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/why-ka..._campaign=Feed:+karatebyjesse+(KARATEbyJesse)


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## Hanzou (Jan 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> And how to fix it.   Sounds a lot like what k-man and a few others asserted regarding the differences between Japanese and traditional Okinawan karate.   Does this guy have a leg to stand in here?
> 
> http://www.karatebyjesse.com/why-karate-is-broken/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+karatebyjesse+(KARATEbyJesse)



Eh, I was with him until he said that kata was the key to making karate whole again. Beyond that, yeah he's right on the money. Shotokan especially is notorious for the stuff he's talking about. Thing is, I've seen nothing out of the Okinawan styles that indicate that they're any better than the Japanese styles.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 9, 2016)

Sounds eerily similar to what happened to judo, which I despise because judo was my first love among the grappling arts but the limitations it's developed as a result of decades of IJF's systematic neutering became more and more obvious as I became more educated on all of the different elements to grappling.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 9, 2016)

Well....the article is a chicken mcnugget.  20 percent meat and a lot of made up stuff to hold the mashed chicken together.
It mashes the complexity of the truth and shapes it into a nice narrative that's looks good to the fast food consumer.
My question is do we want to talk about the article or address some of the real problems and "brokenness" of karate.


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## Steve (Jan 9, 2016)

I


hoshin1600 said:


> Well....the article is a chicken mcnugget.  20 percent meat and a lot of made up stuff to hold the mashed chicken together.
> It mashes the complexity of the truth and shapes it into a nice narrative that's looks good to the fast food consumer.
> My question is do we want to talk about the article or address some of the real problems and "brokenness" of karate.


im interested in whatever discussion you'd like, but I'm most interested in what you think would fill in the gaps of the article, personally.   

First, do you think everyone would agree that karate is broken in the first place?


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 9, 2016)

I would think 80 percent of practioners will feel there is nothing broken.
As for the article, in my opinion karate was not changed to meet a kind of main land attitude , that karate needed to be changed in order to "fit" the Japanese. I think that is a distortion.  Rather Funakoshi was a school teacher and knew how to structure a class and create a curriculum for large groups.  In Okinawa classes were very small and now in Japan they were faced with classes of maybe hundreds. There was no possibility of direct teacher , student transmission.
Anything taught large scale needs to be homogeneous , watered down and taught "by the numbers".


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 9, 2016)

I don't by into the whole "karate as a boxing substitute" concept.  It's not politically correct but let's be real.  Japan was looking at WW2 and needed somthing that would work as a military style PT training for youths.  Karate filled that requirement. Therefore the aim and focus for mainland karate was on combative physical fitness this is a rather large shift from the way it was practiced in Okinawa.


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## TimoS (Jan 9, 2016)

Karate is not Broken


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 9, 2016)

Regardless of the reason on why Japan embraced karate, be it entertainment, physical fitness, nationalist brainwashing  or any other reason, there is no link to show that karate is broken or is lacking somehow.
The author failed to explain "how" karate is broken. He does go on to say that kata and bunkai is the solution as if the karate practicing world has forgotten that they exist.


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2016)

Why is cutting the complexity from a martial art breaking it?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 9, 2016)

He makes good points and too many assumptions about what is currently being taught. Over and over, I am thrilled beyond belief that I have been as fortunate as I have been to find myself training where I train. Y'all should stop by sometime.


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## Drose427 (Jan 9, 2016)

What "hurts" Martrial Arts, is sacrifice for the sake of popularity. 

That funakoshi trained in okinawa versus what he turned shotokan into in order to help it spread were complete opposites.

It happened with TKD as well over the years for a variety of difference, particularly Kukki TKD which changed a good deal since the 70'-80's

Its apparent when you see schools sparring hard like other styles do and its part of why BJJ, judo, MT, etc. have been so consistent. They havent sacrificed much. BJJ, Judo, and MT all have some, but nothing drastic as a change in focus or tons of padding and odd scoring rules.

Changing focus and sacrificing how things are done( in this case,) can impact the style down the line

Now, I put hurts in quotes because I think thats up to the practitioner. I'm not a fan of Kukki TKD, but i respect what it is and sparring that way occasionally is fun for me. Nor are forms the most important aspect of my training. But to others they are, so I'm not sure if Id consider it "hurting" arts.

As for the article, honestly just sounds like a "Drink more ovaltine" moment with the ovaltine being the forms. I like forms, but nothing he's talking about was lost. Application, bunkai, drills, etc have been passed down since the beginning as suggestions, starting points for newcomers, etc. I just wasnt a fan of the article because of how much the end sounds "Kata is all you need" which is where I draw the line


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 9, 2016)

Kata is all you need.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 10, 2016)

Drose427 said:


> That funakoshi trained in okinawa versus what he turned shotokan into in order to help it spread were complete opposites.


Lets not be so fast in putting the blame on Funakoshi.  if you feel karate is not what it originally was lets put the blame where is belongs, on the Americans.

JCS: Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban

prior to WW2 martial arts were turned into a militaristic war effort.  however after the war the American occupation agreements banned all martial arts. 

_"October 22, 1945, the Supreme Commander Allied Powers (SCAP) notified the Ministry of Education that "dissemination of militaristic and ultranationalistic ideology will be prohibited and all military education and drill will be discontinued." Two months later, on January 4, 1946, SCAP issued Directive 550, which, with its companion Directive 548, required "the removal and exclusion from public life of militaristic and ultra nationalistic persons." One result of these orders was that the Ministry of Education eliminated martial arts from school curricula and another was that the Dai Nippon Butokukai was closed."_

the only way to bring martial arts back was to make it competitive sport and "remove all Budo" from the practice.
the next major hit to martial arts was and is the "Wussification of America".   maybe it started in the late 80's and early 90's   where litigation happy folks would take every opportunity to take karate schools to court.  students now needed to be fully padded and no contact during sparring.  the full contact karate-ka like Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis gave birth to pro full contact PKA style fighting. which quickly died under the weight of parents wanting little Johnny to learn self controll and be a better student in school.  Doctors who advised little Johnny take karate to help his ADHD.  and still today we find ourselves in conflict between teaching a fighting art and the anti bully, anti confrontation mind set that has its grip on the country.
there is one bright spot on this >>>>>MMA.    yes that "human cock fighting,  that appeals to the lowest common denominator in our society,"  thanks John Mcain.

as a backlash to the void of true combativeness in martial arts MMA was born and in return has woken everyone up to what martial arts should be.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 10, 2016)

No.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 10, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Kata is all you need.


 
This^

Karate is not broken.  What is broken is some people's understanding of what karate is, what it contains and what it can do.

From the article in the OP link:

*The original Karate techniques are not “lost”. *
They are still here – hidden in plain sight.
_Embedded in conceptual time capsules known as KATA.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_
And the key to revealing their secrets is spelled:
*B-U-N-K-A-I*


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## Buka (Jan 10, 2016)

Difficult subject matter with no common denominator. It's like saying "Restaurants do not have good food."

My Karate is just fine. So, it seems, is the varied Karate(s) of people I know. I would think if theirs were broken, they'd fix it. I know I have, and shall continue to do so.

Maybe it would be more on point to say  - The Martial Arts world, _as a whole_, is fractured and so full of itself it seems auto-cannibalism is the only possible explanation.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 10, 2016)

Broken as in damaged? Or broken as in split?


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## seasoned (Jan 10, 2016)

Not broken, but, misunderstood.

Karate as it was taught in Okinawa was at first handed down from father to son. 
It was indeed a national treasure used as a two fold endeavor to instill a moral code of conduct within an ever growing population. 
With the teachings of honesty, integrity and respect within a framework of a rigidly taught self protection art, it was coveted by entire families and shrouded in a veil of secrecy.

As if their very lives depended on it, which indeed was the case, very little was written down. Instead everything was uniquely placed within dance like forms called "Kata"  that were at times entrusted to a few loyal people outside of the various villages and families. 

To modernize the thought process and help make it more understandable it could be equated to our modern day "concealed carry weapon".

Now add the 2nd world war which devastated Okinawa leaving them no means of income.

As the war ended and our occupying army set-up bases it only seemed logical that the only commodity that was available to the Okinawan's and desired by the U.S. serviceman was "Karate". 

I will close with this in mind. Under the circumstances of war and the devastation, the Okinawa's still honored the virtues of  honesty, integrity and respect and to a few of the serviceman, was given a glimpse of the offerings and a key to open up the treasure within called "Kata". 

Is Karate broken? Perhaps to a few but for the most part there are some that get it and if you so desire go out and find that one DoJo and be thankful once you find it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 10, 2016)

I can't make this technique work = This technique doesn't work.
I am not a good karateka = Karate is broken.

Perhaps the technique works, but the problem is with us. Perhaps karate is not broken, but we are.

Regardless of how karate has changed or what is now taught or emphasized, karate is still there. It is not hidden, nor is it secret, but you may have to seek it and try very hard to understand it. And perhaps that is not all bad. Real karate awaits. Real karateka seek it out. It's not broken, our perceptions are.


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## Drose427 (Jan 10, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Lets not be so fast in putting the blame on Funakoshi.  if you feel karate is not what it originally was lets put the blame where is belongs, on the Americans.
> 
> JCS: Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban
> 
> ...



I named Funakoshi because even he admitted to changing the focus from how he trained at night in Okinawa versus how he taught in schools.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 11, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Kata is all you need.


I disagree. You need both the Kata and the ability to understand said Kata.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 11, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I disagree. You need both the Kata and the ability to understand said Kata.


If you change one word here, you will see the folly of your thinking. Ability is basically a function of timing; so, if someone says you need Kata to develop your timing, and you come along and say, you need the timing before Kata, you see where you need to start somewhere, right?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 11, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you change one word here, you will see the folly of your thinking. Ability is basically a function of timing; so, if someone says you need Kata to develop your timing, and you come along and say, you need the timing before Kata, you see where you need to start somewhere, right?


Not arguing with that, just saying that Kata alone is not enough. You need the Kata, and to practice it, and that is obviously the first step. But you also need to be able to understand the Kata, or have a sensei who can help you understand it (preferably both) in order to fully get everything karate is trying to offer you. Saying all you need is to practice the Kata, to me, is incorrect.


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## drop bear (Jan 11, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you change one word here, you will see the folly of your thinking. Ability is basically a function of timing; so, if someone says you need Kata to develop your timing, and you come along and say, you need the timing before Kata, you see where you need to start somewhere, right?



Someone has it on their SIG. Form follows function. Kata should be a representation of application.

Otherwise you are practicing dogma.


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## drop bear (Jan 11, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can't make this technique work = This technique doesn't work.
> I am not a good karateka = Karate is broken.
> 
> Perhaps the technique works, but the problem is with us. Perhaps karate is not broken, but we are.
> ...



That is not a philosophical debate. Someone makes the technique work. The question is answered. Nobody makes the technique work the question is answered.

There is no perception involved here just observation.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 11, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Someone has it on their SIG. Form follows function. Kata should be a representation of application.
> 
> Otherwise you are practicing dogma.


True, but anything functional can be thrown into a Kata; so, it all works out. Kenpo Katas are more true to real life, but some moves are exaggerated for show.


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## drop bear (Jan 11, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> True, but anything functional can be thrown into a Kata; so, it all works out. Kenpo Katas are more true to real life, but some moves are exaggerated for show.



Correct.

 It depends on how you look at the kata itself. I do get the impression that people think that reality will bend if they just understand the kata well enough.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 11, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Not arguing with that, just saying that Kata alone is not enough. You need the Kata, and to practice it, and that is obviously the first step. But you also need to be able to understand the Kata, or have a sensei who can help you understand it (preferably both) in order to fully get everything karate is trying to offer you. Saying all you need is to practice the Kata, to me, is incorrect.



Yes, you must first be taught kata. You must be instructed until you are doing it correctly with regard to the movements, pacing, rhythm, and so on. However, you are then free to continue your study of kata for the rest of your life. It contains the soul and the essence of karate. It is all of karate.


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## Buka (Jan 11, 2016)

Kata contains the soul and the essence of most styles of Karate, but not all. American Karate, at least as I know it, does not have Kata.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 11, 2016)

Buka said:


> Kata contains the soul and the essence of most styles of Karate, but not all. American Karate, at least as I know it, does not have Kata.



"American Karate."  You mean Ameri-do-te?


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## ballen0351 (Jan 11, 2016)

Jesse is a salesman and writes things to draw traffic to his site.  The problem with his article is these founders of Okinawan were alive well into the 1950's and 60's.  They were still teaching "real" karate in its entirety.  There are still original students teaching the complete styles today.     Nothing is broken there is still  real karate is still out there. individual schools my water things or fail to teach complete karate but Karate as a whole is fine.


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## Buka (Jan 11, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> "American Karate."  You mean Ameri-do-te?



Un uh, I mean "American Karate".

As for Ameri-do-te's Master Ken, I'm pretty sure I know what he'd say about American Karate.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 11, 2016)

Buka said:


> Un uh, I mean "American Karate".
> 
> As for Ameri-do-te's Master Ken, I'm pretty sure I know what he'd say about American Karate.



Ah yup.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 12, 2016)

Buka said:


> Kata contains the soul and the essence of most styles of Karate, but not all. American Karate, at least as I know it, does not have Kata.


It is only backed up, by a thousand years of kata, but yeah, maybe they don't use kata proper. LOL


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## drop bear (Jan 12, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> It is only backed up, by a thousand years of kata, but yeah, maybe they don't use kata proper. LOL



How long has rhino horn been used for medicine?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 12, 2016)

drop bear said:


> How long has rhino horn been used for medicine?


Morning has broken, like the first Rhino, and like the first hunter, to harden his stead. (6000000 BC)


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## Tgace (Jan 12, 2016)

I'm not sure this is appropriate for this thread, but the discussion regarding kata reminded me of this video:






What I think in my armchair is that kata is probably the heart of karate. But I doubt you will be able to apply it like that unless you have trained to apply the techniques of karate "at speed and against resistance".

Of course that begs the question of what one believes a "fixed" karate is...and how the current state is "broken" in comparison. Plenty of people are probably just fine with not being able to actually fight with what they are learning.


Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## geezer (Jan 12, 2016)

drop bear said:


> How long has rhino horn been used for medicine?



Since the Chinese started running low on tiger penis? Ancient Emperors favored preparations of Cinnabar. I heard it was to die for!


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## drop bear (Jan 12, 2016)

geezer said:


> Since the Chinese started running low on tiger penis? Ancient Emperors favored preparations of Cinnabar. I heard it was to die for!



It is only backed up, by a thousand years of medicine but yeah, maybe they don't use rhino horn proper. LOL


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 12, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It is only backed up, by a thousand years of medicine but yeah, maybe they don't use rhino horn proper. LOL


Yes and Bruce Lee, his damn self, practiced Kata(ish) stuff for twenty years before deciding we didn't need it.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 12, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It is only backed up, by a thousand years of medicine but yeah, maybe they don't use rhino horn proper. LOL


Are you saying Kata is placebo?


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## Buka (Jan 12, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> It is only backed up, by a thousand years of kata, but yeah, maybe they don't use kata proper. LOL



Yes! I know, and as I have stated before, I wish I had had Kata as part of my training so I could understand it more completely. I really do, honest.

But the lack of it, perhaps sadly, the missed opportunity of a lifetime of it, has not had a bearing on me (and mine) experiences and success in development of character through Martial Arts training, fighting and self defense ability. Or the pure enjoyment of training - which, to me, means everything.

I have absolutely nothing derogatory to say about Kata. But, to me, it scratches where there ain't no itch. And don't go hating because we train differently, it really ain't that big of a deal....okay, hate if you want, just try and be polite when you do so.


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## drop bear (Jan 12, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Are you saying Kata is placebo?



I am saying the argument is incorrect.

As well as the argument that Bruce Lee did it. Because who cares?


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 13, 2016)

Buka said:


> But, to me, it scratches where there ain't no itch.


Other people itch in different spots though.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 13, 2016)

Buka said:


> Yes! I know, and as I have stated before, I wish I had had Kata as part of my training so I could understand it more completely. I really do, honest.
> 
> But the lack of it, perhaps sadly, the missed opportunity of a lifetime of it, has not had a bearing on me (and mine) experiences and success in development of character through Martial Arts training, fighting and self defense ability. Or the pure enjoyment of training - which, to me, means everything.
> 
> I have absolutely nothing derogatory to say about Kata. But, to me, it scratches where there ain't no itch. And don't go hating because we train differently, it really ain't that big of a deal....okay, hate if you want, just try and be polite when you do so.



I don't hate.  Honest.  And I do try to be polite.  

When I started training, kata was just another thing.  Part of my training.  Required, along with basic exercises and the Japanese terms for our kata and exercises, for promotions.  We were taught, of course, the 'meaning' of the kata we were learning, often known as 'bunkai'.  We practiced kata with partners and without; when we practiced with partners, we practiced the bunkai, with the partner playing the part of the attacker who 'forced us' to do the attack or defense inside the kata.

It was only later, much later, that my eyes began to open to a fuller appreciation of kata.  I would say 'understanding', but I cannot claim to have any real understanding yet.  There is advanced bunkai, applications that are different than the 'obvious' bunkai for each part of the kata.  That's fun and eye-opening and I love it.  There is a depth to the bunkai that I won't live long enough to fully explore.

But it goes well beyond that, even though that would be quite enough to keep me busy forever.

I'm trying to think of an apt analogy, and I'm drawing a blank, but here's a couple that come close.  It's like the difference between being given a mathematical formula for solving a given problem, and being given access to the whole of mathematics, free to more fully understand the solution you've been given, but also to experiment and develop your own solutions, solutions which might be more elegant or work even better for you.

It comes in bits and pieces, joyful little moments when you apply a technique from a kata, like say tipping an attacker's elbow up slightly while leveraging their forearm down, and suddenly realizing that this flows perfectly into another technique from another kata, even one that is overtly designed to do something else entirely, and it ties into your overall understanding of what the heck it is you're doing.

It's being in a meeting at work and suddenly realizing you are practicing kata when someone decides to toss and attack your way.  You find yourself accepting, redirecting, off-balancing, and defeating your opponent and only later realizing that you just used your kata to deal with a business issue.

It is that 'ah ha!' moment when you see an attack coming during sparring and you react with a kata movement that doesn't even (on the surface)  apply to the situation, but yet, it does, and holy cow, it works anyway, because the principle is solid and you've trained your body to do it.  In one specific example, there is a move in Wansu kata where just before the 'dump', you pull your right hand back to your obi, preparatory to digging in and scooping up the opponent's leg; in this case, a punch came towards me and I used that same 'put my open hand on my obi' move to slap his attack down and away from me.  That was actually automatic; I didn't think about doing it, but it worked perfectly and set me up to counter by turning my opponent's body towards me and opening them up.  The basic bunkai of that kata doesn't address any use of that hand other than to place it on your obi and *then* use it to scoop the opponent prior to dumping them.  Yeah, it works for that too.  But the act of just getting your hand to the obi is also a strike/block and boom, there it is in the kata if you spend time thinking about it, and more so if you spend time practicing it.  "It's all in there," as I hear over and over again. 

For me, kata has become everything.  It's more than just my basic exercises encoded into a series of movements that train the hand-eye coordination and create muscle memory.  It is more than just a boring series of things I have to learn to get promoted (actually I don't have any more open handed kata to learn to be promoted, but I'll work on all my kata for the rest of my life and still won't be proficient at them).  Kata is moving meditation, a book of recipes, a tome or storehouse of knowledge that opens when the mind is ready to see the answers.  Kata is my friend and companion on my journey.  I can talk to my kata, my kata talks back.

It's not mystical or anything.  It's not a religion, nor is it spiritual, at least not to me.  I'm not Japanese or Okinawan, and I don't particularly identify with the culture, I'm American and I think and act like one.  But I recognize that something happened here.  Kata developed for whatever historical reasons, and I have read some things that seem to indicate about as much thought went into it as I would think about how to change the oil in my car (get a bucket, get a wrench, buy some oil, get busy).  But as time has passed, I have found something inside kata that to me represents a much deeper way to think about, well, everything.  How it got there, I cannot say, but it sure does seem to be there.  It's like reading a dictionary; it might seem like a weird pastime, but it sure is fun for those who have learned to take it as a storehouse of knowledge.

I don't think kata makes me a better karateka or a better fighter or a tough guy or anything at all specifically better, although as I illustrated, it can certainly help me and has done so.  I think kata has opened my eyes to the fact that I am on a journey, one which doesn't have an end, and one which I deeply enjoy traveling.

So when I say that kata is karate and karate is kata, for me at least, it's true.  It wasn't true in the beginning, but it is now.  Again, for me, and I accept that it's not for everyone.


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## Buka (Jan 13, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't hate.  Honest.  And I do try to be polite.
> 
> When I started training, kata was just another thing.  Part of my training.  Required, along with basic exercises and the Japanese terms for our kata and exercises, for promotions.  We were taught, of course, the 'meaning' of the kata we were learning, often known as 'bunkai'.  We practiced kata with partners and without; when we practiced with partners, we practiced the bunkai, with the partner playing the part of the attacker who 'forced us' to do the attack or defense inside the kata.
> 
> ...



What a beautiful post. Bill, you really should consider writing a book. Years from now I'll probably consider you a damn fool if you don't write a book on Karate. You get it, you express it so well and it's obvious it comes from the heart.

I agree with everything in your post. If I remove your last paragraph I could replace the word "Kata" with the word "Karate" and I'd be talking about myself, my journey and everything I feel about training. (the only reason I can't use the last paragraph is it would have the word Karate in it too much.)


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## Buka (Jan 13, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Other people itch in different spots though.



Yes, there is that, isn't there? You be right, bro.

Ain't all this Martial stuff just grand? Damn tootin' it is.


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## BryceSPQR (Jan 13, 2016)

Practice is exactly what you make it. I am sure some people practice kata and get absolutely nothing out of it. On the other hand I am sure some people have saved lives thanks to kata. I personally love kata. Not just for training, but for mental clarity. Personal preference I suppose.

www.northernshotokan.com


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 13, 2016)

BryceSPQR said:


> Practice is exactly what you make it. I am sure some people practice kata and get absolutely nothing out of it. On the other hand I am sure some people have saved lives thanks to kata. I personally love kata. Not just for training, but for mental clarity. Personal preference I suppose.
> 
> www.northernshotokan.com


Plus, it is just you training by yourself, without people to worry about.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 14, 2016)

Buka said:


> Yes, there is that, isn't there? You be right, bro.
> 
> Ain't all this Martial stuff just grand? Damn tootin' it is.


Many paths lead to the same destination.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2016)

Kata is a tool.  For many people who understand it or are so inclined, it is very useful.

For others who do not understand it or are otherwise not inclined, it is not useful.

Kata is one tool of many, that can be useful in training.  It is not the ONLY tool and from what I've seen its the people suggesting it is the ONLY tool are the ones trying hardest to discredit it.  So those people do not have a grasp of the context anyway.

You can develop great skills with kata.  You can develop great skills without kata.  

Why do we need to argue over it?  To each his own.  De gustibus non disputante est.  concerning taste, there can be no dispute. 

What does anyone gain by trying to convince another, that you must, or must not, do kata, if the other is not so inclined?  So what?  Do what you want and don't worry about what others are doing.  I don't understand why this has become such a thorn in some peoples asses.  Let it go.  Many people see value in kata, and do it.  Many others do not see the value and so do not do it. Let it go.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 14, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Kata is a tool.  For many people who understand it or are so inclined, it is very useful.
> 
> For others who do not understand it or are otherwise not inclined, it is not useful.
> 
> ...


Since you ask, it is akin to teaching, and helps to solidify or discredit, their own conceptions.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Since you ask, it is akin to teaching, and helps to solidify or discredit, their own conceptions.


Some people just wanna argue.  It's tiresome.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 14, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Some people just wanna argue.  It's tiresome.


No we don't.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 14, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> No we don't.


yes


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## ballen0351 (Jan 14, 2016)

ballen0351 said:


> yes


no


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> No we don't.


Maybe not you.  But others.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 14, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe not you.  But others.


Yeah, I was going for the Monty Python, Argument.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Yeah, I was going for the Monty Python, Argument.


Splitter!!


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