# Classical Fighting Arts on Isshin-Ryu



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2012)

Anyone happen to read this article?  It is entitled "Isshin Ryu Karate: A Riddle Wrapped in An Enigma," Classical Fighting Arts #23.  I have read it, but will withhold my comments until/unless someone would like to discuss it.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 12, 2012)

Is there a link?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Is there a link?



There is a link to the magazine, but the story is not online.

http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Cfa/Pages/cfahome.htm

Basically, the article makes several points, many of which could be seen by some Isshin-Ryu karateka as insulting or downright slanderous.

1) Tatsuo Shimabuku did not train with the masters he claimed to have trained with, but rather learned a few kata here and there and made up stories about how he learned them.
2) Isshin-Ryu is essentially dead on Okinawa.
3) The Isshin-Ryu taught today in the USA is not much like the Isshin-Ryu Tatsuo Shimabuku taught.
4) The style is effective anyway, even if the founder was a fraud and a liar.

There are some sub-topics the author addressed, but I think those are the highlights.


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## K-man (Oct 12, 2012)

I looked up as much as I could and obviously couldn't find much but if you read the 'history' of Isshin Ryu on different sites then there are a couple of interesting questions that arise. Main one is the claim about Shimabuku:_ "Throughout Okinawa, he was recognized as the island's leading practitioner of both Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu Karate." _Obviously that is not true of Goju Ryu as he is not mentioned in Goju history at all and the leading Goju practitioners of the time were guys like Miyazato, Yagi, and Higa Senseis. His avoidance of military service is also interesting, and the fact that his business had failed also paints a picture of opportunity to use his martial art skills to provide an income.

Reading different accounts would indicate that he, like many others, set up his own style and prompted it with flair.

That doesn't make it any less valid than, for example, the Goju Kai system that Yamaguchi set up, about the same time, with dubious claims and great promotion. History and common sense show many of his claims to be most unlikely yet his system has flourished, and no one would say it was not a true karate system.

i would like to read the whole article.   :asian:


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2012)

K-man said:


> I looked up as much as I could and obviously couldn't find much but if you read the 'history' of Isshin Ryu on different sites then there are a couple of interesting questions that arise. Main one is the claim about Shimabuku:_ "Throughout Okinawa, he was recognized as the island's leading practitioner of both Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu Karate." _Obviously that is not true of Goju Ryu as he is not mentioned in Goju history at all and the leading Goju practitioners of the time were guys like Miyazato, Yagi, and Higa Senseis. His avoidance of military service is also interesting, and the fact that his business had failed also paints a picture of opportunity to use his martial art skills to provide an income.



I have to agree with you there!  I had never heard that particular claim being made before you mentioned it, and I Googled it and yep, several sites make the claim.  Not in my lineage, though.  And honestly, I do not know where they came up with that.



> Reading different accounts would indicate that he, like many others, set up his own style and prompted it with flair.



I'm sure that's true.  However, there is a difference between creating one's own style and claiming to have been trained by X in this style and Y in that style if one is lying.  That's not promotion, that's lying.  The article claims that Shimabuku Soke did not train with the people he claimed as teachers, or that if he did, it was for a very short period of time; months, not years.



> That doesn't make it any less valid than, for example, the Goju Kai system that Yamaguchi set up, about the same time, with dubious claims and great promotion. History and common sense show many of his claims to be most unlikely yet his system has flourished, and no one would say it was not a true karate system.
> 
> i would like to read the whole article.   :asian:



I have never heard of Goju Kai, so I cannot say.  And yes, I think you would have to read the article to understand why I created this thread.  It's a very serious attack on all of Isshin-Ryu; it basically claims that our founder is a complete fraud and liar.  If true, then Isshin-Ryu is a laughingstock.  If not, then this is some serious slander we're talking about here.  It's not a basic statement about "Well, like all founders, Shimabuku promoted his style through puffery."  No, this is more "Shimabuku claimed to train with Master X, Y, and Z.  He lied."  It's that serious.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 12, 2012)

This might be a more common story than we'd like to think.  Think about all of the people who run martial arts schools now that aren't really qualified.  Can we expect anything different back then?  Why would humans not behave like they do now?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> This might be a more common story than we'd like to think.  Think about all of the people who run martial arts schools now that aren't really qualified.  Can we expect anything different back then?  Why would humans not behave like they do now?



I would suppose (although of course I cannot prove) that a person such as Tatsuo Shimabuku, who was attempting to get his style recognized by Okinawan authorities, would have been called out as a liar if he said to them that he had been trained by thus and so, and thus and so were present.  Okinawa is a very small place, and at that time, there were very few recognized styles, as I understand it.   This was a place and time where your reputation was everything, and it would be very bad for a person who claim he trained with X, and X stands up and say "Oh, no you did not."  It would have been so disastrous, personally and professionally, that I seriously doubt any karate master of the time would even consider such a thing.

I certainly agree that faking credentials is such a common occurrence nowadays that it's rare to find an instructor who has not padded their resume or claimed teachers, degrees, and honors to which they are not entitled.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 12, 2012)

Well, I have not read the article as well, but I highly doubt Shimabulu is a 'fraud' in that sense. One of my senseis, who spent 25 years studying in okinawan arts, talked very highly of him, and also mentioned that one of the reasons he created isshin ryu was because he was recognized as great, and was asked to by multiple people. Don't know the validity past my own sensei's research (which I trust), but my belief that if the article is as slanderous as you say, it was probably not well researched, and should not have been published.
2 things why logically it wouldn't make sense as well:1. as you said, Okinawa was a small place, people would call BS if he lied about his credibility, and his system would not go far. 2. If he hadn't trained with those people, how was he able to create such a good system. i don't train in it, but I've been to some isshin ryu classes, and it definitely seems like the people there know what they're talking about. He must have either learned from good people (and no reason to lie about which 'good people' they were) or made up random stuff and it somehow magically all worked out. Which is more likely...hmmm...


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2012)

I found this, which is a response and rebuttal from one of the people used as a 'source' by the author of the piece.

http://isshin-ryu.com/2012/10/06/re...e-about-tatsuo-shimabuku-isshin-ryu-training/


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## elder999 (Oct 12, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I found this, which is a response and rebuttal from one of the people used as a 'source' by the author of the piece.
> 
> http://isshin-ryu.com/2012/10/06/re...e-about-tatsuo-shimabuku-isshin-ryu-training/



Which was gonna be my next question: who is the author? What's his agenda?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Which was gonna be my next question: who is the author? What's his agenda?



The piece is unsigned.  From what I am hearing, it was written by the publisher of Classical Fighting Arts magazine, and I have never heard that they had an agenda against any style of martial arts at all.  The person heavily quoted in the piece is Andy Sloan, a 5th Dan belt holder in Isshin-Ryu, and a student of a 1st-generation Isshin-Ryu student of Tatsuo Shimabuku.  He's also the person quoted in the page I just linked to, claiming he was not quoted correctly in the article and that he did not know it was essentially going to be a 'hit piece' on Isshin-Ryu.

Some of the points made in the article are no doubt true, such as the fact that Isshin-Ryu is fractured, and there are many differences within the styles in the USA (not major ones, but they are there), and I am being told that it is also true that Isshin-Ryu is not being extensively taught on Okinawa at this time.  The rest, I have no idea, but it really seems unlikely to me.


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## harlan (Oct 12, 2012)

Sometimes, controversy is good. Helps to bring out the things people only whispered about. 

I can't weigh in on the facts but would like to add, my teachers studied on Okinawa and found it frustrating that the Okinawans KNEW who was embellishing and didn't talk about it or address it. At one point one of them enquired 'why' and the reply was 'They have to feed their families too.'

Whatever the 'truth', those people are dead, and what matters is what we do with what we have now.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2012)

harlan said:


> Whatever the 'truth', those people are dead, and what matters is what we do with what we have now.



That's a fact, thanks!


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 12, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The piece is unsigned.



I have no knowledge (and therefore no opinion) on the article. But I will say this:
Unsigned articles have zero credibility. If you're not willing to sign it (be it a magazine article, a forum post here, or even rep) it's meaningless.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 12, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have no knowledge (and therefore no opinion) on the article. But I will say this:
> Unsigned articles have zero credibility. If you're not willing to sign it (be it a magazine article, a forum post here, or even rep) it's meaningless.


Definitely true! I mainly ignore the article if it's unsigned, most of the time, its just someone instigating things


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## arnisador (Oct 12, 2012)

CFA has always been very Uechi-focused but I hadn't noticed a bias against Isshin at any point.


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## scottie (Oct 14, 2012)

I think history and lineage is very important and am very proud of mine. When news of the article hit all 5 of the facebook Isshinryu forums I'm apart of, I was tempted to be angry. The truth is I have seen Mr. Sloan's Performance of kata. (including weapon kata that some lineages refuse as Isshinryu kata). IT IS SOLID AS I HAVE SEEN. 
I love Isshinryu, I love the people I train with and under, I love our association (Mr. Mattox). The truth is that as much as all of that matters. In a self defense situation the only thing that matters is, does the knowledge my lineage past down to me work? Master Long, Armstrong, Nagle, Mitchum, or....... won't be there in person to fight that battle for me. So I can only hope the line to me, prepared me, for what's presently in front of me. In my job I can say that so far for the most part it has. All the charts and lineage trees do nothing more than make me feel good about me, and justify the money I spend to train in that lineage.  
 The writer, 1. Would not have the guts to come to a single dojo that I know of and talk that junk. If he did he prob. wouldn't walk out on his own power. 2. It did not change the way I fight or do forms.
I have heard that Master Shimibuku lost many Okinawan students to Shorin when he announced Isshinryu. Shorin and Goju Masters and students did not see the necessity of the new art. If they tried to debunk it. I am not surprised that an American Writer would do the same to stir something up. He might get a few Isshinryu people to buy his product. We have grown into a culture where everyone wants to disprove the legitimacy of every group but their own. In order to stroke their ego. Heck, We even do it within our own system.  It just pushes me harder to not let down the sensei that believes in me.


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## punisher73 (Oct 15, 2012)

CFA has only recently begun to feature Isshin-Ryu, and that is probably only due to IR being recognized as one of the official traditional okinawan styles (The others being Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu).  Up until that point, Isshin-Ryu has always been considered a substyle of Isshin-Ryu.  I think that the first time CFA even featured an article on IR was issue #16 when they interviewed Uechi Sensei, who was very instrumental in getting IR recognized as a traditional okinawan karate style.

Advincula Sensei has done alot of research into IR.  He has interviewed Nakazato Sensei who was a student of Kyan's who says that Tatsuo Shimabuku was a student of Kyan and remembers seeing him there.  For whatever reason, one of the main people who talks about Tatsuo Shimabuku and not being a student is Zenpo Shimabukuro who claims that his father passed on Kyan's style exactly as they learned it.  Zenpo has also made comments in CFA that if Tatsuo had learned karate from Kyan, then why would he change it.  Nakazato also has stated that he was very poor when he learned from Kyan, so that also puts a hole in the theory that Kyan only taught the upper crust.  Advincula Sensei has also interviewed others as to Tatsuo Shimabuku studying with Chojun Miyagi also.

What is even more of interest is the other article in that issue (Chan Mi: Karate for Milk by C. Goodin), where a long time student of Kyan talks about his training with Kyan.  The author, Mr. Goodin, talks about this person's performance of Seisan and says that the closest he has seen performance wise is the '64 films of Tatsuo Shimabuku.  He also makes reference to how Kyan used  certain katas for night fighting.

Part of the problem is that, Shimabuku did issue out high rank to the early american students and didn't expect them to use it and that caused issues with the more traditional okinawan students.  And I think that due to the language barrier that things got stated as facts due to their impressions and not necessarily due to outright lies.  For example, the early students thinking that Shimabuku was the top student of Miyagi and Kyan.  Very few of the early students ever came back to continue their studies with Shimabuku to see what changes/refinements that he had made since they were last with him.  I have even seen people try and make money teaching Isshin-Ryu's "lost kata" (gojushiho), which wasn't lost at all, it was dropped by Shimabuku because he didn't like it and was never a part of Isshin-Ryu, which only muddies the waters because it casts doubt on what IR is/was.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 15, 2012)

scottie said:


> The writer, 1. Would not have the guts to come to a single dojo that I know of and talk that junk. If he did he prob. wouldn't walk out on his own power.


I agree with every thing you said except this. Wouldn't it be better to convince him he's wrong/being an idiotic jerk than make him 'unable to walk out on his own power'?


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## dancingalone (Oct 15, 2012)

I have read the article, and I don't have much to say other than it does cast Shimabuku Sensei in a rather poor light.  Reading Sloane Sensei's rebuttal from the link given, it sounds like he may have been misquoted or mis-paraphrased and I am sincerely sorry for him if he has received a lot of push back from the Isshinryu community as a result of the CFA article.

Perhaps one of the senior Isshinryu experts can be motivated to write a rebuttal story for CFA or another MA outlet.  I imagine any of them would be steaming mad right now.

On a related note, why is Isshinryu a dying art on Okinawa?  Did it never reach critical mass among the natives, after Shimabuku's students left him for Shorin-ryu proper?  Without stirring the pot I hope, is there an element of prejudice there, given the many high ranking exponents of the system in the US?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 15, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Part of the problem is that, Shimabuku did issue out high rank to the early american students and didn't expect them to use it and that caused issues with the more traditional okinawan students.



I cannot claim to know why Shimabuku Soke awarded 6th Dan to many of the American students who studied on Okinawa for only a year and then went home to the USA.  If I knew nothing of Isshin-Ryu besides that, it would raise my eyebrows as well.

There are many stories about that and what was meant by it, but I do not have first-hand knowledge of any of that, so I won't repeat it here.  I will state what I have observed, which is something that an outsider to Isshin-Ryu could not possibly know.

The first-generation students that I know of came back to the USA and continued their studies on their own, in what certainly appears to have been a very diligent manner.  There may have been some drift in some cases, and in others, there may be some differences simply based on what they learned when they were with Shimabuku Soke on Okinawa, as he apparently did change his methods several times in minor ways.

What I do know is that the first-generation students I know of practice their kata and it looks the same as those seen in the videos available of Tatsuo Shimabuku.  I also know that Shimabuku Soke was brought to the US on various occasions, where he had the opportunity to see various of his students and to apply corrections and fix any problems he found.  The fact that these students kept working, and basically 'kept the faith' after such a long time, is nothing short of amazing to me.



> And I think that due to the language barrier that things got stated as facts due to their impressions and not necessarily due to outright lies.  For example, the early students thinking that Shimabuku was the top student of Miyagi and Kyan.  Very few of the early students ever came back to continue their studies with Shimabuku to see what changes/refinements that he had made since they were last with him.  I have even seen people try and make money teaching Isshin-Ryu's "lost kata" (gojushiho), which wasn't lost at all, it was dropped by Shimabuku because he didn't like it and was never a part of Isshin-Ryu, which only muddies the waters because it casts doubt on what IR is/was.



I agree.  At least one story is told of a first-generation student of Shimabuku Soke who said that he thought that Soke was calling him 'Hey You' for months, because he did not realize it was Soke's attempt to pronounce his last name.  I believe a lot was taught by pointing and demonstrating at that time.  I do not know this as personal knowledge, just what I have been told.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 15, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> On a related note, why is Isshinryu a dying art on Okinawa?  Did it never reach critical mass among the natives, after Shimabuku's students left him for Shorin-ryu proper?  Without stirring the pot I hope, is there an element of prejudice there, given the many high ranking exponents of the system in the US?



I do not know.  Without getting into politics (and I am absolutely not qualified to offer an opinion there), I can only say that it seems there was a minor battle for succession and it caused a splintering effect, with several Okinawan students of Master Shimabuku essentially setting up their own shop and calling it 'Isshin-Ryu'; but this is public knowledge, not a secret.  It is documented in several books and online.  Some, it appears, have ceased active training, perhaps not least of all because of physical illness.  Other than that, I cannot say.


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## punisher73 (Oct 15, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I cannot claim to know why Shimabuku Soke awarded 6th Dan to many of the American students who studied on Okinawa for only a year and then went home to the USA.  If I knew nothing of Isshin-Ryu besides that, it would raise my eyebrows as well.
> 
> There are many stories about that and what was meant by it, but I do not have first-hand knowledge of any of that, so I won't repeat it here.  I will state what I have observed, which is something that an outsider to Isshin-Ryu could not possibly know.
> 
> ...



You are correct.  I said that Tatsuo Shimabuku didn't "expect them to use it".  I should have stated that he didn't expect them to use it right away and told them that they had to study a number of years to earn the higher grade.  I agree with you, that it is a big political landmine between Tatsuo's first son, his son-in-law and many american students. No good can come from it and only further divides it.


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## punisher73 (Oct 15, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I do not know.  Without getting into politics (and I am absolutely not qualified to offer an opinion there), I can only say that it seems there was a minor battle for succession and it caused a splintering effect, with several Okinawan students of Master Shimabuku essentially setting up their own shop and calling it 'Isshin-Ryu'; but this is public knowledge, not a secret.  It is documented in several books and online.  Some, it appears, have ceased active training, perhaps not least of all because of physical illness.  Other than that, I cannot say.



Agreed.  I have heard one first generation student state that Tatsuo Shimabuku was a genius when it came to the martial arts and what he did, but was a lousy business man.  The comment was reflecting that before his death Tatsuo did not put into place his successorship, nor did he put into writing or make his wishes known the direction he wanted IR to go.  So, you do have different students who learned at different times all doing their best to respect their master and his teaches.

Truth be told, I have looked into all of the other mainstream traditional okinawan arts (Shorin, Goju, Uechi) and ALL of them have this same type of stuff going on.  Everyone claims that their instructor/association teaches the way that founder so and so did and that the others don't, or that their instructor/association was taught the deeper hidden meanings of X because he was the top student.  It all comes down to this; all of us as martial artists are on a personal journey and our study will reflect where our instructor was at in his/her journey when we studied with them.  I think all of us would cringe if our journey was frozen in place by our students after we had moved on and refined our knowledge and saw them saying that "this is the way" that we wanted it done.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 15, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> You are correct.  I said that Tatsuo Shimabuku didn't "expect them to use it".  I should have stated that he didn't expect them to use it right away and told them that they had to study a number of years to earn the higher grade.  I agree with you, that it is a big political landmine between Tatsuo's first son, his son-in-law and many american students. No good can come from it and only further divides it.



I know that attempts have been made to bridge the gap and to create associations that resolve differences.  It is unfortunate that they have not come to fruition for whatever reason. The closest I have seen in the US has been the IHOF, and that's not all-inclusive.  But on the other hand, I have attended and been welcomed at seminars and tournaments sponsored by associations other than my own (I am UIKA).  No one has ever treated me badly or told me I am 'wrong' or anything like that, either.  In my own dojo where I am a student, I have never heard a negative words spoken about ANY Isshin-Ryu practitioner, especially those who are first-generation students of Tatsuo Shimabuku.  They are all spoken of with the highest respect.  The most I have ever heard said is what I have seen for my own eyes as well; some katas are performed slightly differently.  This, again, is no secret, and probably does not make either one way or another 'wrong', IMHO.  I note also (and again, only personally, I speak for no one but myself and especially not for Isshin-Ryu) that some Isshin-Ryu practitioners are more into block/punch/kick straight-ahead karate, and some are more into the intricacies of the bunkai and how each application can be used.

That, by the way, is one of the aspects of Isshin-Ryu that makes me feel that the author is in error about Shimabuku Soke creating Isshin-Ryu out of whole cloth.  I have never, ever, had a moment when I asked one of my Sensei how a certain application works, or what the bunkai is for a given move in a kata, and not had it explained and very clearly demonstrated to show that oh yes, it does indeed work, and work very well.  Boy howdy, does it work.  This is not (I believe) possible with something that is 'made up' with no basis in 'real' karate.  You can do a bad block a thousand ways, but it is always a bad block.  A good block is hard to master but easy to do, and it works, and when you have applied it correctly and you get hit, you know it works.  That cannot be made up, IMHO.  The teaching I receive is real and solid and can be depended upon.


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## dancingalone (Oct 15, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Truth be told, I have looked into all of the other mainstream traditional okinawan arts (Shorin, Goju, Uechi) and ALL of them have this same type of stuff going on.  Everyone claims that their instructor/association teaches the way that founder so and so did and that the others don't, or that their instructor/association was taught the deeper hidden meanings of X because he was the top student.



Oh, I agree that splintering is mostly inevitably when a martial arts founder dies.  It's a story that has happened time and again in karate and outside of it.

My question had to do specifically with why Isshinryu is an art going extinct on Okinawa.  From the bird's eye view, it seems like the style never achieved critical mass among the locals and when Master Shimabuku died, his few remaining Okinawan students could not sustain and grow the art in their native land, though of course Isshinryu is quite viable in America.

The Ryukyuan people can be as tradition bound as their Nipponese cousins.  Perhaps in the end, Isshinryu was too 'new' for them.



			
				Bill Mattocks said:
			
		

> The most I have ever heard said is what I have seen for my own eyes as well; some katas are performed slightly differently. This, again, is no secret, and probably does not make either one way or another 'wrong',




Indeed it doesn't.  I like variation in kata so long as the teachings still have correct structure to them.


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## scottie (Oct 15, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> I agree with every thing you said except this. Wouldn't it be better to convince him he's wrong/being an idiotic jerk than make him 'unable to walk out on his own power'?


There you go being the voice of reason. lol, but you are right.


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