# Professor Presas' non-FMA teachers



## Stan (Jun 16, 2006)

After reading the discussioin of GM Remy Presas' lineage in the Filipino martial arts, I got to wondering, who were his main teachers in other arts it is mentioned he studied, like Judo and Shotokan Karate?  Everyone knows of his friendship with George Dillman and Wally Jay, and the influence that RyuKyu and Small Circle have had on especially later Modern Arnis, but what about this earlier work?  Specifically, does anyone know where the Karate flavor of the Anyos comes from?


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## monkey (Jun 16, 2006)

Hey if you go th the family hisory thred I actualy posted the World web url that states excatly that.& alot more & answers questions ect.


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## Rocky (Jun 16, 2006)

Professors's Karate flavor for his Anyo's is from Shotokan.

 He learned a lot of his chokes and ground fighting from early judo and in his latter years he learned a lot of his ground stuff from my dad.


A lot of his close quarters empty hand and jaming is a blend of Crossada DeMano and Tjakta (sp) Palis Palis was also his flavor for taking his opponents corner. But Crossada was probablly the biggest influence in his close quarters stuff, hence his pention for striking with the forarms.



Rocky


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## monkey (Jun 16, 2006)

"Rocky bring that info to the family history thred.
Mr Anderson & I were talking of serrada & who influenced them.Id be honored 
if you could put it exactly like you just did to help get the info down for the art. It is worth documenting....


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## Stan (Jun 16, 2006)

Thanks, Rocky, but I was looking for his _specific lineage _in Shotokan and Judo.  IE, who were his teachers, and where?

Monkey, I looked back over the Family History thread, and I didn't know what link you were referring to.  I saw the Wikipedia link, a non-function MartialTalk link, a non-functioning link to a branch of Guro George Mazek's site, and a link explaining GM _Ernesto _Presas' lineage.  I was looking for info about GM Remy Presas.  Thanks.


And to all, given the Judo background, what techniques from Judo do you think Professor kept or abandoned as he evolved the Art?  I don't have any experience in Judo, but there seems to be very few Judo type throw in later Modern Arnis.  Professor's mastery of _Kuzushi_ was obvious, however.  
Stan


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## monkey (Jun 16, 2006)

Good questions--When I trained from 1979-90s It was to my understanding it was retained & yet the evolution of the art picked up the Wally Jay  small circle & Dilamns point hits.
             Im sure he encounterd others as well  there is were I am  estmating 
the arts of Detranka & tapi tapi emerged from or due to,
Im not 100% on that .You may want to ask a Detranka player or a tapi tapi player of its ways.
             To me --the bonda y bonda & corto ect! Had no tapi tapi & 
I dont tap dance or tapi nothing.


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## monkey (Jun 16, 2006)

STAN  it the thred family discution or of that context just go to new post  & scroll down.I thinks I did it around post #29 or so on that thred.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 16, 2006)

Stan said:
			
		

> After reading the discussioin of GM Remy Presas' lineage in the Filipino martial arts, I got to wondering, who were his main teachers in other arts it is mentioned he studied, like Judo and Shotokan Karate? Everyone knows of his friendship with George Dillman and Wally Jay, and the influence that RyuKyu and Small Circle have had on especially later Modern Arnis, but what about this earlier work? Specifically, does anyone know where the Karate flavor of the Anyos comes from?



I do not know. He did not name names to me. Or if he did then I did not listen.  

I do know that Judo was in the art before SCJJ seminars with GM Jay were done. 

Good Question.


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## Cruentus (Jun 16, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I do not know. He did not name names to me. Or if he did then I did not listen.
> 
> I do know that Judo was in the art before SCJJ seminars with GM Jay were done.
> 
> Good Question.


 
I recall Judo, Jujitsu, and shotokan from Japan. But the teachers I would not know either. Good question, though. I'd be curious to find out.

Paul


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 16, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I recall Judo, Jujitsu, and shotokan from Japan. But the teachers I would not know either. Good question, though. I'd be curious to find out.
> 
> Paul


 
It is a good question and probably one only that Remy could answer.
I do not ever remember hearing any of his Judo, Jiujitsu or Shotokan teachers names from any source.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## monkey (Jun 17, 2006)

Now I do rember that Remy had time with Conyete.Momoy was heavy in to 
judo.I dont know if this was his soul source,but thats one.
         He did this while in Cubu.I also know the Conyete art has a karate influance.I dont know for sure if Remy pick up on that also.
I think he  was a great inovator & maybe like Bruce Lee took what he felt 
was the most applicable.
        Alot of the anyos do resemble Conyete forms.
They might have some change as Remy felt it must be for his art.
        Theres some thoughts that might have a good base to find if they have merit.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Now I do rember that Remy had time with Conyete.Momoy was heavy in to
> judo.I dont know if this was his soul source,but thats one.
> He did this while in Cubu.I also know the Conyete art has a karate influance.I dont know for sure if Remy pick up on that also.
> I think he  was a great inovator & maybe like Bruce Lee took what he felt
> ...



Tom,

Do you have any proof on this?

The information I have was that he trained with the Balintawak Family and not the Doces Pares family while in Cebu. He did watch and fight others, but his training was by watching and learning and practicing. 

I also know he was sent as an Ambasador of Culture to Japan where he demo'd and taught Modern Arnis. He may have also trained there at that time. 

Anyone with PI Library access capable of looking this up?

Curious


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## monkey (Jun 17, 2006)

I know as a fact the balintawak -- Conetes -- & pananadata lines
were close to each other.The tournament & even when the General came to see the full Conete brothers in 1978.This was one of the archive films Mamoy passed to me. I also have the 1980s event.
         There they demo the forms--which look alot like the anyo,  & Mamoy was the main 1 that had the judo.Cacoy went more of a karate--kind of not well recieved by Mamoy but excepted.
         I dont know if Remy went to these, but they were the National event to 
remeber Lapu Lapu & many styles showed each year.So if Remy did 
pick it up--That would be the spot.I believe Remy was in the Balintawak for over 6 yrs & going to these events --you will meet & exchange styles!


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> I know as a fact the balintawak -- Conetes -- & pananadata lines
> were close to each other.The tournament & even when the General came to see the full Conete brothers in 1978.This was one of the archive films Mamoy passed to me. I also have the 1980s event.
> There they demo the forms--which look alot like the anyo, & Mamoy was the main 1 that had the judo.Cacoy went more of a karate--kind of not well recieved by Mamoy but excepted.
> I dont know if Remy went to these, but they were the National event to
> ...



Once again you are drawing conclusions that cannot be proven.

Balintawak and Doces Pares were both in Cebu. 

Both had people who faught each other. 

Manong Bacon and Manong Buot both or by themselves could drop by any Doces Pares training and be treated with respect. So I know they were close in location and the leaders were close enough to be civil to each other. 

Yet, many of the students and or students of the students would fight each other and they both thought their method was the best. So for GM Remy to train in both is not something one would expect. In particular when the information I have about his time in Cebu was all about Moncal, Maranga and Bacon in his Balintawak training. Nothing about any training with the Doces Pares. 

Yes Bacon trained the Elder Savaadra while at the Fencing Club after WWI and before WWII. What happened after WWI was the Canetes became the controlling force in the Doces Pares and Manong Bacon went his own way and taught Balintawak. 

I do not see the conclusion you are trying to make.


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## monkey (Jun 17, 2006)

i simply stated if they had time at the tournments & since you stated the Conetes were the controlling force --it may be possable for Mamoys judo & karate line to be the insperation!The Conete forms do in fact resemble what is know as Anyos.


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## MJS (Jun 17, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> i simply stated if they had time at the tournments & since you stated the Conetes were the controlling force --it may be possable for Mamoys judo & karate line to be the insperation!The Conete forms do in fact resemble what is know as Anyos.


 
I think what he's asking Tom, is for some links, resources, etc. to refer to. The web is a huge source of info. but it can also provide many different explanations for the same subject. I can watch 2 different news stations that are reporting a robbery and chances are, I'll get 2 different versions of the same story! 

And for the record Tom, I am *not *calling you a liar, *not* saying that you don't know what you're talking about and I'm *not* saying anything else that you may take in a negative way. I'm simply making a statement.

Mike


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## monkey (Jun 17, 2006)

For exact details on conete style & how it was linked to Remy ect .

Go to the         "Descution of family art  "   Thred.

go to post "#29"  & click on the URL  for Presas Family  "That I provided! " 

Click on the blue Balintawak  & see  100% it said Conete so I was correct &
it has been verified.Any info or question can be answered in detail at this world wide family linage site.


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2006)

Rich,

 Remy did study some Doce' Paris' from Momoy, if you take a good look at his foot work in Espad Y Daga the Doce influence is very evident.



As far as his Judo from Momoy I don't know .......but it makes sense since Momoy was into Judo.......I just don't know for sure....



Rocky


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## Stan (Jun 17, 2006)

Thanks for all your information everyone.  Although I know much information is  lost to history, at least until people who were there decide to step forward and speak about it, I'm interested in Professor's experiences in Japan.  

Maybe some day someone will be up for the task of a well-researched biography of Professor Presas.


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## Cruentus (Jun 17, 2006)

Stan said:
			
		

> Thanks for all your information everyone. Although I know much information is lost to history, at least until people who were there decide to step forward and speak about it, I'm interested in Professor's experiences in Japan.
> 
> Maybe some day someone will be up for the task of a well-researched biography of Professor Presas.


 
Besides people from Japan who might know, I am thinking that people like Mr. Roland Dantes, Senior Masters in the PI, or even possibly his children (Dr. Remy Jr. and family) might know. Anyone who has the chance to ask them might get the information (just hope they have the wherewithall to post it for histories sake).


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 17, 2006)

I seem to recall something about a Dr. friend of GM Remy's who was a karate practionar in the PI.  I think I read this in a book, that this Dr. was a high level Shotokan instructor and that he and GM Remy were discussing the physical body mechanics of Shotokan (i.e. hip rotation stances etc. etc.) and that these discussions and such influeneced GM Remy in his development of the anyos and MA.  I take it the time frame was such that this is when he was still in the PI, prior to his leaving them.

"By the time he came back to his hometown, Remy was already an expert in arnis and in other sports like Judo, Jujitsu, wrestling and Karate." ....."In 1969.....and founded the National Amateur Karate Organization"
_Quoted from the Pink Book 1st U.S. edition._

This was at the time he started his gym in Manila.

"In 1970, Presas went to Japan on invitations of Japan Fuji Telecasting Corporation to exhibit Arnis to Japananese televiewers.  He returned to that country in 1974 as a representive of the Ministry of Tourism of the Philippines to the Asian Tourism Fair to introduce this particular Philippine martial art."
_Quoted from The Practical Art of Eskrima 3rd edition_

From the above quotes it seems that GM Remy learned karate, judo, and jujitsu when he was living abroad after he left home at 14 and prior to his returning there.  Then he very well could have learned some added techniques, information etc. etc. when he went to Japan but he learned his base of info in regards to these arts while in the PI.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2006)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Rich,
> 
> Remy did study some Doce' Paris' from Momoy, if you take a good look at his foot work in Espad Y Daga the Doce influence is very evident.
> 
> ...



Rocky,

I do not doubt you. Nor would I have doubted many other posters. I would have asked for some information and followup questions.

Yet Tom has been so wrong on so many topics on so many issues and points, that I now feel that if he does not show his proof, I have to at least question it.

For even if he later states he was trying to draw the link, that is not what was stated in his first point. He makes statements like they are fact untill peopel question it. 

I also know he studied DP as some discussions he had with Jim and Jeff while I was being a nosey brat and listening. But I was tired of putting data out there for Tom to then decide that his research now agrees with those on every site I have visited.  So, yes I questioned it and placed it with doubt. My Bad. But I wanted someone who's word had not been called into question to make the statement. 

Thank you


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2006)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> I seem to recall something about a Dr. friend of GM Remy's who was a karate practionar in the PI. I think I read this in a book, that this Dr. was a high level Shotokan instructor and that he and GM Remy were discussing the physical body mechanics of Shotokan (i.e. hip rotation stances etc. etc.) and that these discussions and such influeneced GM Remy in his development of the anyos and MA. I take it the time frame was such that this is when he was still in the PI, prior to his leaving them.
> 
> "By the time he came back to his hometown, Remy was already an expert in arnis and in other sports like Judo, Jujitsu, wrestling and Karate." ....."In 1969.....and founded the National Amateur Karate Organization"
> _Quoted from the Pink Book 1st U.S. edition._
> ...




Mark,

Good points about checking the books. 

I like that for I have done it still do it.  

Thank you.
:asian:


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Rocky,
> 
> I do not doubt you. Nor would I have doubted many other posters. I would have asked for some information and followup questions.
> 
> ...


 
I know what you are
saying in fact that is why I quit posting for a long time, I can't begin to tell you how many high ranking people didn't know squat about many things until I posted then they acted like they knew it all the time. So I just said screw it until I put a DVD out I will not show Crssada DeMano or Palis Palis Silat, or Espada Y daga. If I never put out a DVD well then unless My kids want to learn it from tapes  I leave them or if they are old enough to have learned then it dies with me...... to bad so sad!

As for Monkey I really don't read to much of his stuff , it gives me a head ach, in person he may be a great guy but man his post jump around more then a 10 Detroit Hoe! Sorry Monkey but its true.




Rocky


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## monkey (Jun 17, 2006)

Rocky;
The post jump around are from when I have any were from 5-8 people post multi questions.Its hard enough to answer person with 10 questions asking for ranks ect  then in the same breath they state they dont care of rank but who trained me.Then I tell them & they state I drop names.I felt these people were board members who would kick me off the site.I did my best
to answer (for an autistic person)

There are many post like" the interceting fist" I have done & others & recieved good reports.
Its too bad even now there still seems to be this & they probly will never
offer a fair & just shake.
They have made claims I lie Yet -the info I gave has been prooven Fact.
They see the bio of Ernesto as here say & not a bio.
They ask me for proof on the conete tie & I post the url for history of the art & it states conete line.
They come back & thank others yet put more on me for I did join their
sect & occult summonig of the great monkey.
        Ive been honest--try & read the post of Mono y mono-Ajuken-& Kombaton.There will always be some one who for some resogn will
not like me for who I am & what I do be it my disability or not joining any
club they belong to.


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## Brian Johns (Jun 17, 2006)

I'll have to double check but I believe that this Dr. friend is Dr. Guillermo Lengson. I do recall the story that Boar Man relates and believe that it involved Lengson.

Take care,
Brian Johns





			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> I seem to recall something about a Dr. friend of GM Remy's who was a karate practionar in the PI.  I think I read this in a book, that this Dr. was a high level Shotokan instructor and that he and GM Remy were discussing the physical body mechanics of Shotokan (i.e. hip rotation stances etc. etc.) and that these discussions and such influeneced GM Remy in his development of the anyos and MA.  I take it the time frame was such that this is when he was still in the PI, prior to his leaving them.
> 
> "By the time he came back to his hometown, Remy was already an expert in arnis and in other sports like Judo, Jujitsu, wrestling and Karate." ....."In 1969.....and founded the National Amateur Karate Organization"
> _Quoted from the Pink Book 1st U.S. edition._
> ...


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 17, 2006)

Brian Johns said:
			
		

> I'll have to double check but I believe that this Dr. friend is Dr. Guillermo Lengson. I do recall the story that Boar Man relates and believe that it involved Lengson.
> 
> Take care,
> Brian Johns


 
Brian

This name sounds familar, but I can't recall where I read it.

Mark


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## Cruentus (Jun 17, 2006)

Rocky said:
			
		

> I know what you are
> saying in fact that is why I quit posting for a long time, I can't begin to tell you how many high ranking people didn't know squat about many things until I posted then they acted like they knew it all the time.
> 
> Rocky


 
I call that the "me too syndrom." I hate that when people do that... it happends a lot and it is very annoying.



> I'll have to double check but I believe that this Dr. friend is Dr. Guillermo Lengson. I do recall the story that Boar Man relates and believe that it involved Lengson.
> 
> Take care,
> Brian Johns


 
Hi Brian. That sounds like it might be a good possibility; Dr. Lengson was covered in one of Wiley's books, I believe, where I think he was recognized for Arnis Sikiron (sp? don't have my reference so I'm going by memory). If I recall reading from different sources that Dr. lengson also did some training in Japan (and possibly Korea).

According to _Fred Lazo _on the memories page, professor travelled to Japan with Ernesto and Dr. Lengson: http://www.martialtalk.com/remy/memories.html


It looks like on top of everything else, they did some Kendo as well.

I would bet that Ernesto or Dr. Lengson (or someone from that camp) would have these answers if asked.

This is kind of a cool thread - I love learning about the historical stuff. 

Paul


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## monkey (Jun 17, 2006)

Those last photos of Ernesto in the kendo uniform just help tell more of
the art that goes with my Arjuken certificate.
This art under Ernesto had Arnis--Judo--some Jumping High kick & Kendo.
The certificate is on what looks to be sheep skin type or rice paper.
There are a few Arnis figures & a few judo figures & yes, Kendo figures.
The certificate is aprrox. 14 x 16 & the figures are in red ink.

My 1981 Certificate from Remy has red figures around the outside on what looks like sheep skin or rice paper.There is a total of 11 sets of figures around the outside displaying various aspects of the art.
 I'm glad this info is coming out,as it tells more of what the certificates mean now.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Those last photos of Ernesto in the kendo uniform just help tell more of
> the art that gose with my Arjuken certifciate.
> This art under Ernesto had Arnis--Judo-- & Kendo.
> The cerficate is on what looks to be sheep skin type or rice paper.
> ...




How does the first paragraph have anything to do with the title of this thread?


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## monkey (Jun 18, 2006)

Tulisan had posted a url on the post #28  & I went to it. Scanning down the long history of how these people met Remy, ect.  was an article from Fred Lazo.
Here he gave the history of the kendo & showed Ernesto pictured in kendo suit  & then 1 shot w/ Ernesto vs Remy --Remy had no gear & Ernesto was still in the kendo suit.
The Arjuken that I was trained in had kendo influence & I didn't know from where.
Those photos now correlate with the certificate I have on the Arjuken.
Arnis Judo & Kendo Assoc.
The Remy certificate just had what was  close range serrada on some-kuntao on others & balintawak on remaining photos  around his certificate.

This is how it relates --go to post #28 & click on the url--There's even a thread on Holiford Jones & Remy.


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 28, 2006)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> I seem to recall something about a Dr. friend of GM Remy's who was a karate practionar in the PI. I think I read this in a book, that this Dr. was a high level Shotokan instructor and that he and GM Remy were discussing the physical body mechanics of Shotokan (i.e. hip rotation stances etc. etc.) and that these discussions and such influeneced GM Remy in his development of the anyos and MA. I take it the time frame was such that this is when he was still in the PI, prior to his leaving them.


 
Ran across the book at work today.

From WARRIOR ARTS OF THE PHILIPPINES by Reynaldo S. Galang
Pg 256 from an interview with Roland Dantes

*Q How did Professor Remy Presas come up with the name Modern Arnis?*
......
"One day when Professor Remy visited Dr. Guillermo Lengson in his clinic next door to the University of the East, they were discussing the hip movements in Karate.  There was a book on Dr. Lengson's desk titled "Dynamic Karate written by Mastoshi Nakayama that laid open to chapter 2 which was dealing with applying the power in the hips.".....

So I got part of it right. 

Just FYI I highly recommend this book.
Mark


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 1, 2006)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Rich,
> 
> Remy did study some Doce' Paris' from Momoy, if you take a good look at his foot work in Espad Y Daga the Doce influence is very evident.
> Rocky


 
In his video interview with Joe Rebelo, he says he got his twirling from Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete.  It is also written he got his sinawali training from Dr. Guillermo Lengson.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## oosh (Jul 1, 2006)

Dr  Guillermo Lengson also  was instrumental  in Master Christopher Ricketts development of the Sagasa Kickboxing system of Bakbakan - http://www.bakbakan.net/fightart.html


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