# Started the path to Bassai yesterday!



## agemechanic03 (Aug 31, 2007)

Ok, as you all know I started Naihanchi Cho Dan on Monday. Well yesterday (Thursday) my instructor started me on Bassai. I only learned the 1st 8-10 moves then and today I was shown up to the funny jump. It is a very interesting hyung and I'm excited about this one. I've seen others do it before and have been wanting to learn it for a while. He also told me that out of all the forms, that this is the only form, if I was to forget all forms, that I need to remember this ONE form. What's you guys' take on this? I can see a lot of what my instuctor was talking about when he would show me how certain things worked. He said it's like someone coming at you with a chair, you throw your hands straight up in between theres of course, split apart to make them drop the chair, step forward and slam both fists into the side of your opponent and then jumping forward with a center punch to the stomach. He did this to me and it worked. I also found out that when I test for Cho Dan here in Seoul S. Korea, that they mainly grade on this form since it is also one of the deadliest as he said (Lot's of Power and Speed).

Tang Soo!


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## crushing (Aug 31, 2007)

That's cool you're excited about Bassai.  I really enjoy Bassai too.

After the overhead 'chair' block, you step into the double punch, then jump forward with the center punch.  We do it a little differently and I have problems with it if I'm not paying attention.  After the overhead block we shuffle into the double punch rather than step.  The point being getting past the chair and in closer to the opponents body for the double punch.  With this shuffle the heel of my back foot wants to come up off the floor rather than remain grounded.  I think I'm anticipating the next shuffle forward with the punch.

Can you explain the 'funny jump' that you do?  Thanks!


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## Chizikunbo (Aug 31, 2007)

agemechanic03 said:


> Ok, as you all know I started Naihanchi Cho Dan on Monday. Well yesterday (Thursday) my instructor started me on Bassai. I only learned the 1st 8-10 moves then and today I was shown up to the funny jump. It is a very interesting hyung and I'm excited about this one. I've seen others do it before and have been wanting to learn it for a while.



Congratulations! Bassai is a great form, but I find it interesting it is taught before Nae Bu Jin Chodan. Usually Bassai comes first (and you grade for chodan with it), and then Nae Bu Jin Chodan, Jindo, Nae Bu Jin Eedan, Rohai, Nae Bu Jin Samdan, Ship Soo, Kong San Kun, Wangshu, Ship Sam (Seishan), Sa Oon (Jion), Oh Ship Sa Bu...Some instructors change the order though, and as long as you learn the forms, thats whats matters ;-)



> He also told me that out of all the forms, that this is the only form, if I was to forget all forms, that I need to remember this ONE form. What's you guys' take on this?



IMHO Nae Bu Jin Chodan would be the one from not to let go, after all Chokki Motobu once said "Naihanchi is the only form you need in order to fight!" I agree...Bassai Dae is a very nice form though, it is pretty much a culmination of this skills learned up to that point.



> I can see a lot of what my instuctor was talking about when he would show me how certain things worked. He said it's like someone coming at you with a chair, you throw your hands straight up in between theres of course, split apart to make them drop the chair, step forward and slam both fists into the side of your opponent and then jumping forward with a center punch to the stomach. He did this to me and it worked.



I have seen this interpretation for that segment of the form before. It is creative! One thing to remember about forms though, when they were created, it was not for these types of attacks...so its up to us to use the principles in the forms to develop an art of options, where we are not limited by any attack, be sure to explore each and every movement, against many different types of attacks...you should have about 10 good applications for each movement in any form, of course it takes years to get to that point, lol thats why we are all walking the same road! lol



> I also found out that when I test for Cho Dan here in Seoul S. Korea, that they mainly grade on this form since it is also one of the deadliest as he said (Lot's of Power and Speed).
> 
> Tang Soo!



Well, I would not call any form the "deadliest" however it is a nice form, and the traditional Chodan test form for Tang Soo Do. Just be sure to keep an open mind about all of the forms you learn, as they _all_ have many good things to teach you ;-)

You are quickly progressing to the Chodan level of study, congratulations on, and best wishes in your continued effort and studies.
--josh


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2007)

You are doing well! I have to echo though the request for the funny jump bit! We don't have a jump in it. the last moves can be hard on the legs if you're not warmed up lol!


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## Chizikunbo (Aug 31, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> You are doing well! I have to echo though the request for the funny jump bit! We don't have a jump in it. the last moves can be hard on the legs if you're not warmed up lol!


I think he it talking about the little bit with the double punches...some jump with jungool jaseh doing the double punches, others step, and others shuffle...

--josh


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 31, 2007)

agemechanic03 said:


> He also told me that out of all the forms, that this is the only form, if I was to forget all forms, that I need to remember this ONE form. What's you guys' take on this?



I'd say it'd be pretty hard to say that any one form was *the one* to know, all others excepted. Sure palche deh has a lot of great stuff in it, but putting all your eggs in one basket isn't the wisest idea. TSD has several forms for that reason. Hyung are like potato chips; you can't have just one :-þ



agemechanic03 said:


> I can see a lot of what my instuctor was talking about when he would show me how certain things worked. He said it's like someone coming at you with a chair, you throw your hands straight up in between theres of course, split apart to make them drop the chair, step forward and slam both fists into the side of your opponent and then jumping forward with a center punch to the stomach. He did this to me and it worked.



Interesting. We're taught that what we're doing is grabbing the (wooden) chair legs, breaking them off, and slamming them into the opponent's sides. Even without that extremity, though, it's effective. Also think of it like this: Someone grabs you from the front by both shoulders. You lower your stance to loosen the grip, bring your hands close so they can go to the insides of your opponent's arms, raise them up to get out of your opponent's grasp, and slam him hard in the sides now that he's off balance and trying to react. Depending on the situation, you might go for the ribs or the temples. Never forget the concept of _il kyuck pil sal,_ "one technique to finish." 



agemechanic03 said:


> Tang Soo!



Tang Soo!

EDIT: 

Crushing: You learned the form with a double punch instead of a double outside-inside strike? Interesting. Are they both forward and at the same level, or are they like the ones later in the form?


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## Yossarian (Aug 31, 2007)

We do a jump on the punch after the double outside/inside strike and just before the Pyung Ahn Oh Dan bit. It can be used as a double leg takedown too. 

Great form, ive always thought Bassai and Naihanchi would be all you needed to fight provided you learn all the apps(and drill them). I do think we learn to many forms, im still working on applications from the Pyung Ahns and have hardly touched on Sip Soo, Naihanchi2 + 3 and Jindo.


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## JWLuiza (Aug 31, 2007)

I would say Kanku Dai (Kong Sang Koon, Kusanku, etc) would be the ONE kata.  It's generally considered the catalogue for Shotokan (and they have Bassai as well, but consider KSK/Kanku Dai to be the lynchpin kata.  However, I think Bassai is a great kata.

Gold star to the first person to bring back what the Kanji translate to for Bassai (and it ain't to penetrate a fortress)


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> I would say Kanku Dai (Kong Sang Koon, Kusanku, etc) would be the ONE kata. It's generally considered the catalogue for Shotokan (and they have Bassai as well, but consider KSK/Kanku Dai to be the lynchpin kata. However, I think Bassai is a great kata.
> 
> Gold star to the first person to bring back what the Kanji translate to for Bassai (and it ain't to penetrate a fortress)


 
Kushanku is in Wado as well, it's a bit of a bugger to do as if you lose concentration at any point you can wander off into the Pinan katas which it contains! Certainly Kushanku and Naihanchi seem to contain just about most moves though few kicks. Can anyone think of a kata/hyung/pattern with a roundhouse kick in it?


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## crushing (Aug 31, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Crushing: You learned the form with a double punch instead of a double outside-inside strike? Interesting. Are they both forward and at the same level, or are they like the ones later in the form?


 
I called it a double punch, but double outside-inside strike is a more accurate description and the fists are at the same level, unlike the ones that come later.

The 'chair block' has also been described as a defense against shoulder grab to us too.  I guess it just sounds more exciting to be defending against furniture attacks!


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## claireg31 (Aug 31, 2007)

"I do think we learn to many forms, im still working on applications from the Pyung Ahns and have hardly touched on Sip Soo, Naihanchi2 + 3 and Jindo."

i know exactely what you mean, i'm always asking to go over the pyung ahn forms, i'm terrible for remembering, going to get the other half to film me doing the forms so i can look at it when i need a memory jigging!
i like both bassi forms, bassi shio is a good too, nice stong form, specially for the girlies


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## JWLuiza (Aug 31, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Kushanku is in Wado as well, it's a bit of a bugger to do as if you lose concentration at any point you can wander off into the Pinan katas which it contains! Certainly Kushanku and Naihanchi seem to contain just about most moves though few kicks. Can anyone think of a kata/hyung/pattern with a roundhouse kick in it?



Not in any of the traditional forms will you find a round kick.  Nor will you find a hook kick, a back kick, or a twist kick.


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## Yossarian (Aug 31, 2007)

> Not in any of the traditional forms will you find a round kick.  Nor will you find a hook kick, a back kick, or a twist kick.



The WTDSA basic form no 3 has two sets of three roundhouses but its a relatively new form.


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## JWLuiza (Aug 31, 2007)

Yossarian said:


> The WTDSA basic form no 3 has two sets of three roundhouses but its a relatively new form.


Many schools have adapted the Kicho forms and added basic kicks to shore up this lack.  Personally I see both sides.  The kata are derived for short space defense, so a high kick doesn't work so well.  However, since Kicking is so important it is nice to bring in more practice of the kicks.


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## agemechanic03 (Aug 31, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> You are doing well! I have to echo though the request for the funny jump bit! We don't have a jump in it. the last moves can be hard on the legs if you're not warmed up lol!


 

Haha...Ok...I call it a "funny jump" b/c it is my first time doing it. You have completed your outside to inside double fist punch to the sides and you are in a front stance, and then you just push off both of your feet and do a center punch landing in the same front stance that you were just in maybe stretching a lil bit forward. Hopefully that helps. Like I said, it's funny to me b/c i've never done it and i am trying to get it down.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Aug 31, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Can anyone think of a kata/hyung/pattern with a roundhouse kick in it?



Hah...you know, now that I think of it, no, at least none in the standard curriculum. Probably due to the mostly Japanese origin of our standard hyung curriculum. 

There are outside-inside kicks in a few, though. Side kicks in pyung ahn ee dan and sa dan. No round kicks, though. Hrm...that is curious.

Are there any in the hyung devised by GM Hwang Kee (chil sung/yuk ro)? Wouldn't know those forms, since we don't do them.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 31, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Are there any in the hyung devised by GM Hwang Kee (chil sung/yuk ro)? Wouldn't know those forms, since we don't do them.


 
There aren't any in Chil Sung Il thru Oh and none in Yuk Ro Cho or Ee Dan (Du Mun and Joong Jol).  That is a bit weird that there aren't any.

Bassai is definately one of my favorites....the best or only one that you need - not sure about that, but it is a great form.

If you have the chance, I highly recommend Chil Sung Sam Lo.  It incorporates many movements seen in the Pyang Ahns and Bassai and some new and very interesting ones as well.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 31, 2007)

Bassai, depending on how you count, has about 56 moves.  If you were to develop 10 applications for each move, you'd be left with 560 responses.  If you trained all of those responses, it literally would be all you needed.  

Of course the same could be said of any form.  Naihanchi Chodan has about 32 moves, that would be 320 responses, which again is more then you really need to know in order to defend yourself.  

Bassai is a great form.  There is a lot more to it then you think.  Check out this video.

For more discussion on Bassai, check out this thread.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 31, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Gold star to the first person to bring back what the Kanji translate to for Bassai (and it ain't to penetrate a fortress)


 
That's interesting, because I've had several native speakers of Japanese tell me that it mean "Penetrate the Fortress."  I've heard that there is controversy though, so I'd love to read why.


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## JWLuiza (Aug 31, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> That's interesting, because I've had several native speakers of Japanese tell me that it mean "Penetrate the Fortress."  I've heard that there is controversy though, so I'd love to read why.



Please consider buying this book:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/kata/

I got the following information from this book:

It probably means something closer to: To extract from a fortress, or rescue.  The first character in Bassai is "batsu" or "nuki" (on one of the six ways of writing it) and means to extract or draw out.  The next character, fusagu or sai means close, obstruct, etc.  However, nowhere in any chinese dictionary for the pictograms does the word penetrate appear.


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## JWLuiza (Aug 31, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Please consider buying this book:
> 
> http://www.24fightingchickens.com/kata/
> 
> ...



Rob Redmond, the author, lived in Japan for three years and has a great Blog at www.24fightingchickens.  The book also has step by step instructions for the shotokan versions of these forms.


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## Chizikunbo (Sep 1, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Please consider buying this book:
> 
> http://www.24fightingchickens.com/kata/
> 
> ...



I have heard Bal Sae Dae translated as 'Remove Obstruction Greater [Form]'

--josh


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## Lynne (Sep 2, 2007)

That's really exciting, agemechanic.

I don't know if you "compete" over there or not or if you will in Europe, but I imagine you'd blow away the competition in the USA with your forms!


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2007)

agemechanic03 said:


> Haha...Ok...I call it a "funny jump" b/c it is my first time doing it. You have completed your outside to inside double fist punch to the sides and you are in a front stance, and then you just push off both of your feet and do a center punch landing in the same front stance that you were just in maybe stretching a lil bit forward. Hopefully that helps. Like I said, it's funny to me b/c i've never done it and i am trying to get it down.


 

Move 23 is preparation stance, then raise both arms above the head then double block ( the chair movement as described) we do front stance, right punch, then slide forward with another right hand punch but with the shoulder more forward in a shoulder charge, then turn for the knife hand.


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## agemechanic03 (Sep 2, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Move 23 is preparation stance, then raise both arms above the head then double block ( the chair movement as described) we do front stance, right punch, then slide forward with another right hand punch but with the shoulder more forward in a shoulder charge, then turn for the knife hand.


 
we do the same thing, except we don't "step" forward, we jump forward off both feet at the same time and land both feet together while throwing the punch and shoulder. We then come up slowly, breathing in with our right hand in the air blocking and our left low blocking, then step forward really fast and then back really fast just like the end of Pyung Ahn Oh Dan. That's as far as I know right now.


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## agemechanic03 (Sep 2, 2007)

Lynne said:


> That's really exciting, agemechanic.
> 
> I don't know if you "compete" over there or not or if you will in Europe, but I imagine you'd blow away the competition in the USA with your forms!


 
I don't get to compete over here. It sucks, b/c when I was younger and did Wado- Ryu, I competed all the time. My instructor isn't big on competitions anymore, even tho he was the Korean Heavy Weight Champion 3 different years back in the 80's. We are trying to talk him into just taking us to a competition just to watch, even tho I would LOVE to compete, I don't think I could match up to these koreans tho.


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## GreenEyedDespereaux (Sep 27, 2007)

Bassai is hard! Best of luck.


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## cdunn (Sep 28, 2007)

Got promoted last night, which means my next is Bassai Dai. It should be interesting, especially in comparison to Bassai So.


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