# The Limitations of MMA & Kickboxing in Self-defense Applications



## Chuck Johnson (Mar 8, 2012)

Howdy folks. Just published another MA article in my blog. I wrote this being as big a fan of MMA & Kickboxing as everyone else, but also wanting to bring to light the fact that as combat systems, neither one of them is still perfect. Particularly since at the end of the day, they are both still sports. Hope you find it to be an enjoyable read!


http://chuck-n-action.blogspot.com/2...g-in-self.html


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## Jason Striker II (Mar 8, 2012)

An informative article!

Of course, all those who have simply jumped on board the current MA craze train (MMA), don't want to hear a word of it. And won't.


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## Steve (Mar 8, 2012)

No such thing as a perfect combat system, and I think most people know that.  


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## Tez3 (Mar 9, 2012)

Jason Striker II said:


> An informative article!
> 
> Of course, all those who have simply jumped on board the current MA craze train (MMA), don't want to hear a word of it. And won't.




Really? And all those  jumping on the bandwagon of the 'MMA is pants' brigade will line up slagging of MMA, it's practitioners and it's fans. On MT we like to think we don't slag each others styles off. Most of us have known for many many years that as Steve says there is no perfect combat style.


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## seasoned (Mar 9, 2012)

My instructor always taught "the firstest with the mostest", if that makes sense, it does to me.

No matter who your up against, you snooze you lose...............


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 9, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Really? And all those  jumping on the bandwagon of the 'MMA is pants' brigade will line up slagging of MMA, it's practitioners and it's fans. On MT we like to think we don't slag each others styles off. Most of us have known for many many years that as Steve says there is no perfect combat style.



Just so I al clear on the slang... Pants=bad?

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## Instructor (Mar 9, 2012)

I am not a fan of MMA.  I just don't like sports, it also extends to things like football and nascar.  

I don't disrespect other styles and this includes MMA.  Their are no great martial arts only great practitioners.  All styles have inherent strengths and weaknesses.  No style is superior to another in the same way that no style is inferior.

I can say that MMA has kept Martial Arts in the spotlight and for that we should all be thankful.  To me it's a miracle that martial arts are still popular in this day and age.


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## Tez3 (Mar 9, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Just so I al clear on the slang... Pants=bad?
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk




LOL, that's the one! I thought the OP would appreciate the linguistics of proper English! he can pass it on. 
 It would be nice not to have another MMA is bad thread tbh, we all know it's a sport that's many do, we know that a few fighters are well honed professionals but the majority of people who train MMA are people who just enjoy the training and may or may not have a competitive fight now and again. The techniques we do in MMA come from TMA so to say that MMA doesn't work for SD is saying what? That TMA doesn't work? It doesn't all the time, it's all very dependent on the person as we know. TKD and karate competitors can switch between competition rules and SD yet it's perceived that MMA people can't because they are 'used to rules' etc it's a long drawn out discussion, we've had it several times on here. It's a discussion we can have again of course but it would be really nice if we could not have the comments such as Jason Striker made.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 9, 2012)

Damn straight. Pants are bad! Down with pants! Up with miniskirts!

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## Tez3 (Mar 9, 2012)

I'm sure the OP can get pants ( which are underwear btw) into his raps!


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## Jenna (Mar 9, 2012)

Steve said:


> No such thing as a perfect combat system, and I think most people know that.


Exactly.  I think when an article like this bases judgement on stereotype then it suggests research is lacking.  And perhaps experience of the subject matter more so.


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## frank raud (Mar 9, 2012)

Chuck Johnson said:


> Howdy folks. Just published another MA article in my blog. I wrote this being as big a fan of MMA & Kickboxing as everyone else, but also wanting to bring to light the fact that as combat systems, neither one of them is still perfect. Particularly since at the end of the day, they are both still sports. Hope you find it to be an enjoyable read!
> 
> 
> http://chuck-n-action.blogspot.com/2...g-in-self.html



While you state that MMA or Kickboxing don't cover multiple oponents or weapons(which is true), you also don't offer an alternative that does cover both of those scenarios. It is also a fact that in certain circles, they have been combining MMA based training for a weapons based environment, as well as dealing with multiples for over a decade. Not that that helps your case.


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## frank raud (Mar 9, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsLStyynEVs&feature=related  A video from 2005 showing ISR Matrix, a system developed by Luis Guiterrez and Paul Sharp, whose background includes being some of the original teacher/fighters out of Matt Thornton's Straight Blast Gym. As active LEOs, training includes such things as in fight weapons access, jamming the draw of the opponent's weapon, disarms and handcuffing. All based around MMA training.


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## SavageMan (Mar 9, 2012)

First of all let me start by saying those who speak of a subject on opinions alone without researching the subject should remain quiet. The biggest problem MMA has today is people spreading misleading or just plain wrong information. I study traditional Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai Kickboxing, and parts of Hapkido self defense. Anybody who tells me MMA wouldn't hold up on the street because it's a sport has never went toe to toe with an MMA practitioner. Just because the cage has rules doesn't mean they carry over to real life situations. At least where I train we do go over weapons (stick, knife, & gun). And from what I'm told the gym in Morgantown WV, and Charleston WV does to. First a question for all those Karate/ Kung Fu guys out there when you spar how many of you go full tilt? All I ever hear from you guys is " If we did we would hurt one another." So if that's the way you train is that the way your going to fight in a real life situation. Are you going to hold back? Or are you going to reach for your gym bag and put on your pads first? Get Real! Second a little history lesson for all those who think MMA is restricted to a sport it's called Pankration. You know one of the first recorded martial arts. It was an Olympic sport and practiced as a tournament sport. But oddly it seems the Greeks also used it in warfare. Along with some guys called the Spartans. Yeah I heard they sucked at the whole life & death thing too. If your going to talk smack on a form why don't you start with those who can't seem to find respect for others. At least in MMA we appreciate the forms we take from. Side note for you by the way MMA is not restricted to BBJ and Muay Thai. That's only what you see on TV. The beauty of MMA is that there are no restrictions to training. That means I get to learn a new way to kick a$$ every day.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 9, 2012)

"*Lack of an emphasis on avoiding fights"

*​If You wanna learn how to run away, go jogging every morning. Its better to prepare for the fact that running away isnt a cure all, and be ready to stand and fight. If You dont have to, dont. But id rather be proficient in Defending Myself, rather than proficient in backing Myself into a corner.


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## chinto (Mar 9, 2012)

I find that a lot, not all MMA types have trained for the ring. Also many seem to emphasize BJJ. Bjj is a good system for what it is, but not what I would choose for the street.
Karate, Aikido, Japanese Jujitsu, Kungfu (many systems of it), silat, and many other systems were developed assuming that you would face multiple and armed attackers. 
I would say that judo is a less desirable system for self defense then Jujistsu, ( though by say 4th dan or so in Kodokan I understand they have added back a lot of the jujitsu that was removed to make judo.)  There is no perfect system, and each must choose for his or her self.  I have heard a lot of people claim that things like the UFC or other cage type matches are like a real fight. That is of course ridiculous!  Real fights are over in seconds, and they usually do not come as single attackers.  

That said, a lot of cage fighters and MMA people have several years or more of TMA training before they decide to train for cage matches.  So each case is different.

I would say if you want Self Defense MMA training is provably not your BEST choice, but if its all that is there  go for it.


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## Steve (Mar 9, 2012)

I stand by my assertion that, in a pinch, I'd rather have a competent mmaist who isn't a douche and has some semblance of situational awareness than just about anyone else.   There might be individual exceptions, but I believe this is a solid choice.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 10, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> "*Lack of an emphasis on avoiding fights"
> 
> *​If You wanna learn how to run away, go jogging every morning. Its better to prepare for the fact that running away isnt a cure all, and be ready to stand and fight. If You dont have to, dont. But id rather be proficient in Defending Myself, rather than proficient in backing Myself into a corner.



Uh, no, actually. If you want to learn to run, go jogging, train for a marathon or a sprint, or whatever. If you want to learn how to run away, that's quite a different idea, and does require specifically training it. It involves training awareness, understanding the options, being able to utilise the flight/fight response based on distancing, understanding the tactical approach, incorporating escape/fleeing into your drilling, and more. If you don't incorporate such things, then you are more likely to stand still when you should escape, and get cleaned up by the next wave.


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## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2012)

chinto said:


> I find that a lot, not all MMA types have trained for the ring. Also many seem to emphasize BJJ. Bjj is a good system for what it is, but not what I would choose for the street.
> Karate, Aikido, Japanese Jujitsu, Kungfu (many systems of it), silat, and many other systems were developed assuming that you would face multiple and armed attackers.
> I would say that judo is a less desirable system for self defense then Jujistsu, ( though by say 4th dan or so in Kodokan I understand they have added back a lot of the jujitsu that was removed to make judo.) There is no perfect system, and each must choose for his or her self. I have heard a lot of people claim that things like the UFC or other cage type matches are like a real fight. That is of course ridiculous! Real fights are over in seconds, and they usually do not come as single attackers.
> 
> ...



When people say MMA fights are like real fights it's in the context of them actually fighting full contatc, ie punching to KO their opponent and not just to touch and win points. The fact that an MMA fighter ( if someone tells you they are a cage fighter btw they aren't, if they say they are an MMA fighter then they are genuine, the wannabees say ''cage fighting, cagefighter and UFC fighting'') trains for 3-5 minutes round means they have stamina, fights may well be over in seconds, they may not be as I've seen for myself, the mass brawl type will go on for a while. They can quite easily be single attackers if they are travellers fights, they are known for going one on one. MMAers are quite capable of tossing the rules out of the window just as other competitive martial artists are. BJJ/Judo for the street... I think most people who practice these know that the best place in a fight is not on the ground, they do know however how to get out and up to their feet, they don't practice their style blindly.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 10, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Uh, no, actually. If you want to learn to run, go jogging, train for a marathon or a sprint, or whatever. If you want to learn how to run away, that's quite a different idea, and does require specifically training it. It involves training awareness, understanding the options, being able to utilise the flight/fight response based on distancing, understanding the tactical approach, incorporating escape/fleeing into your drilling, and more. If you don't incorporate such things, then you are more likely to stand still when you should escape, and get cleaned up by the next wave.


I was being slightly sarcastic, and could have probably gone into more detail.

I could go on to bady words to express this, or I could save us both some effort and just say "Agreed".


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 10, 2012)

A lot of this simply boils down to teaching/training methodology. I'll offer the same thing that I have in the past;



> There has been much discussion on the differences between self-defense training methodology vs. sport training methodology. It isn't necessarily a *this vs. that *since an individual is free to pursue either as the focus of their personal training (as well as other reasons). The purpose of this thread is to go into the differences in training methodology, primarily focusing on the SD model. It isnt' to say one is better or superior to the other as each has a different focus and a different goal. So from the very beginning I want to make it clear that this isnt' an _'us_' vs. '_them_' thread. It isn't a _we're great_ and _you suck_ thread. It is only to discuss the SD training methodology in and of itself and how it differs from the sport model.
> 
> For the sport-only instructor/practitioner that has only the focus or goal of sport competition, this thread will probably be of little value. And there is nothing wrong with being a sport only instructor/practitiner as long as that goal is clearly stated up front and what is desired.
> 
> ...


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## chinto (Mar 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> When people say MMA fights are like real fights it's in the context of them actually fighting full contatc, ie punching to KO their opponent and not just to touch and win points. The fact that an MMA fighter ( if someone tells you they are a cage fighter btw they aren't, if they say they are an MMA fighter then they are genuine, the wannabees say ''cage fighting, cagefighter and UFC fighting'') trains for 3-5 minutes round means they have stamina, fights may well be over in seconds, they may not be as I've seen for myself, the mass brawl type will go on for a while. They can quite easily be single attackers if they are travellers fights, they are known for going one on one. MMAers are quite capable of tossing the rules out of the window just as other competitive martial artists are. BJJ/Judo for the street... I think most people who practice these know that the best place in a fight is not on the ground, they do know however how to get out and up to their feet, they don't practice their style blindly.




I don't know of any one who trains in Okinawan Karate and is competent that does not know how to throw and grapple just as jujitsu and Aikido use strikes. as to getting up and on their feet, every TMA I have ever seen has that in it. 
I have known some MMA types who were both TMA and MMA trained, competent in street self defense and the ring.  I have known some others who were jerks and also not competent in a real fight in my opinion.  Like I said, each case is individual.   

As to fights being over in seconds, when its serious, that individual engagement will be over in an averidge of about 6 to 8 seconds. and one or possibly both will be badly injured, dieing or dead.   I do not 'practice my style blindly' as you put it.  I have been in a situation or two where dieing was very much a possibility. It is not fun, happy or anything else but scary, ugly and painful. 

Like I said, some MMA are very competent and have years of training, others have a lot less and train only for the ring.


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## chinto (Mar 10, 2012)

There has been much discussion on the differences between self-defense  training methodology vs. sport training methodology. It isn't  necessarily a *this vs. that *since an individual is  free to pursue either as the focus of their personal training (as well  as other reasons). The purpose of this thread is to go into the  differences in training methodology, primarily focusing on the SD model.  It isnt' to say one is better or superior to the other as each has a  different focus and a different goal. So from the very beginning I want  to make it clear that this isnt' an _'us_' vs. '_them_' thread. It isn't a _we're great_ and _you suck_ thread. It is only to discuss the SD training methodology in and of itself and how it differs from the sport model. 

For the sport-only instructor/practitioner that has only the focus or  goal of sport competition, this thread will probably be of little value.  And there is nothing wrong with being a sport only  instructor/practitiner as long as that goal is clearly stated up front  and what is desired.

For the sport only instructor/practitioner that wants to take a look at  some SD options for possible inclusion into the training, this thread  may hold some value for you.

For the SD only instructor/practitioner this would be a good thread to 'talk shop'.

For the purposes of this thread we can define self-defense as; _*the  strategies, principles, tactics and techniques to defend oneself and/or  loved ones from an attack which can cause bodily harm, great bodily  harm and/or death.

*_To begin with, most types of sport training/competions revolve  around some/most/all of the following considerations (be they TKD  specific or a more general MMA). 

Has a referee that enforces rules that both parties are required to abide by for the match. 
The match is in a well-lit, dry, level, soft venue. 
The opponent is unarmed. 
The opponent is alone with no chance others will join in. 
Some sort of safety gear is usually involved i.e. cup, mouth piece, gloves etc. 
The opponent isn't trying to kill, maim or severely injure you. 
You get a break in-between rounds to catch your breath, get a drink, get some advice or a pep talk. 
If you've had enough, you can call a time out or tap out or simply quit and walk away. 
There is often an incentive or reward for competing and/or winning such as rank advancement, a prize or maybe cash. 
As a comparison, self-defense training is for situations;

Situational awareness i.e. be aware of your surroundings. 
Factors  such as avoidance, evasion, escape and de-escalation need to be taken  into consideration and trained for where appropriate. 
Where there is no referee enforcing rules. 
You are likely alone and/or at some sort of a place or position of disadvantage. 
There are no rules. 
There are no breaks, water, advice or anything to assist you. 
The  assault can occur in a parking lot, elevator, side street, your car,  your bedroom, in the woods etc. It will likely occur in dim light  conditions in any type of weather. 
The attacker may be armed, and should be assumed to be armed. 
The attacker may have friends more than willing to jump in. 
There is no safety gear, but likely a plethora of person-unfriendly objects like broken glass, traffic, walls etc. 
The attacker is looking to cause as much damage to you as humanly possible in the shortest amount of time possible. 
To quit is to die (or something possibly worse i.e. rape, love one killed etc) 
The goal is survival, the method is whatever it takes and is appropriate to the situation. 
When looking at the difference in training methodologies, consider for the student and scenario;

Do they always 'go for the knock-out', for points, for a submission? Is so, they've limited there response options. 
Do  they have the option and/or opportunity to avoid or evade the potential  conflict. Or escape or practice any verbal de-escalation skills? 
Do they have the option of using an improvised weapon? 
Does the opponent have the option of pulling a weapon (planned or improvised)? 
Does the opponent have the option of having his buddies jump in to help? 
Is the student required to observe certain rules? 
Do  your students always train inside the Dojang? Are opportunities  provided to train inside a vehicle, stairs, elevator, hallway, small  room, on grass, on asphalt, on a sloping or wet or slippery surface? 
Do  your students always wear their uniform? Are they familar with what it  would be like to be wearing tight clothing, foot wear, shorts and a  T-shirt, a dress etc? Tt is one thing to be warmed up and stretched out  and wearing loose clothing in the Dojang. It is quite another to try it  in a dress in high heels, a pair of tight jeans, with a handful of  groceries, a duty belt etc when you're not warmed up and stretched out. 
Have they ever trained in dim light conditions? 
Have they trained with visual/auditory distractions? 
Do  we always use a closed fist when striking at the head while wearing  gloves and padded helmets? A blow to the head with a fist in a SD  situation may not be the wisest tactic. The chance of injuring the hand  on someone&#8217;s head is fairly substantial even with a well-placed strike.  That is why boxer as an example tape their hands and wear gloves. I'll  say it again; the chance of injuring your hand on someone's head/face is  fairly substantial. If this occurs, depending on the severity of the  injury, it could very well limit your options for further SD. Anyone  here ever try to manipulate a weapon with broken knuckles? Or a cell  phone, or car keys? I've broken a knuckle before and my range of motion  in that hand was limited for an extended period of time. Given that  manual dexterity is already limited while under duress, you've just made  it even harder by busting a knuckle or two, or spraining your wrist on  someone's face. And there is no way to know ahead of time whether or not  he'll actually be knocked out.

This also doesn't touch on the possibility of blood borne pathogens the  bad guy may be carrying. And now you've put yourself in a position of  cutting your knuckles on his teeth or 'bleeding' him from the mouth or  nose. 
Is the student (or the instructor) well versed in  the state statutes of force and deadly force? In consideration like  bodily harm, great bodily harm and/or death? Subject factors? What a  reasonable person would do in the same situation? Are you required to  retreat in your state? Does your state have a 'Castle Doctrine'? An  instructor doesn't need to be an attorney, but providing the resources  for the student to check into it and touching on some of the topics  during class time.

Is the student (or the instructor) well versed in the O.O.D.A. loop?  Fight or flight? Flinch resonse? Adrenaline responses such as tunnel  vision, auditory exclusion, loss of manual dexterity in the extremities?  Considerations can include; 
Even powerful strikes in non-lethal areas can fail. 
A situation which starts out at less-than-lethal levels can quickly escalate. 
A  proper joint lock, at the appropriate time, 'can' immobilize even an  EDP (emotionally disturbed person) even if strikes fail and if properly  applied. 
Be as patient as possible for the situation, look for openings. 
The  attack will probably take place at the most advantageous time to the  attacker and the least advantageous to us. We may be tired, sick,  distracted etc yet still be forced into a situation. 
Some of these predators come in packs which backs them bold. And even being physically big isn't always a deterent. 
Physical  conditioning is also helpful during training, or at least encouraging  it. Being physically fit can help us in several areas of a SD situation.  It can also help if an injury has been sustained. 



I copied this set of things because it is well thought out and I agree with it. ( I should have made the argument as well as this individual did.)  he points out what I was saying badly. In a self defense situation it is a lethal confrontation till shown other wise, and a KO by punching to the head, may not work and disable you.  
No ref, no assurance of some one not jumping in to aid the attacker, no assurance of a weapon not being involved, and in no way is it safe to assume they are not looking to take your life!!! 

the men I know who do MMA matches when asked will even point that out to you.  especially the part about you can just tap out...on the street you do that you may well DIE!!  Of course it may not be you who dies , but perhaps A LOVED ONE.

But either way, that altercation is going to be over pretty quick. If you are still fighting with some one after 20 seconds or so, you are doing something wrong on the street.

Oh and by the way a lot of the blood born pathogens are incurable and lethal!


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## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2012)

chinto said:


> I don't know of any one who trains in Okinawan Karate and is competent that does not know how to throw and grapple just as jujitsu and Aikido use strikes. as to getting up and on their feet, every TMA I have ever seen has that in it.
> I have known some MMA types who were both TMA and MMA trained, competent in street self defense and the ring. I have known some others who were jerks and also not competent in a real fight in my opinion. Like I said, each case is individual.
> 
> As to fights being over in seconds, when its serious, that individual engagement will be over in an averidge of about 6 to 8 seconds. and one or possibly both will be badly injured, dieing or dead. I do not 'practice my style blindly' as you put it. I have been in a situation or two where dieing was very much a possibility. It is not fun, happy or anything else but scary, ugly and painful.
> ...




I didn't say people study their styles blindly...I said that BJJ and Judo people don't study their style blindly, there's a difference.

I know peole who are jerks and people who aren't, some study martial arts others don't. It goes without saying that people are people with all their quirks, charactristics etc. There how ever is never a need to start on one style by saying a couple of posts down from the OP that MMA peoples listen to this etc etc. Competitive martial arts includes more than MMA, yet MMA is always the one that is shouted about when people want to show that SD is 'different', no one is going on about Olympic TKD for example, it would be better that no other style was rubbished in order to make SD look better though.

I see fights every week, sometimes I necessarily have to get involved in breaking them up, sometimes they even start in front of us. I'm not unused to seeing fights, as I said the travellers fights will go on for a long time, they make a point of it. Something I doubt you have where you are then, we have a traveller camp just a few miles away as well as travellers who come from other places. I've seen all sorts of fights start, finish, start up again and what have you.

Why does MMA always come up when people want to disparage a martial art?


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## Buka (Mar 11, 2012)

I don't think I've ever seen a style or school that's perfect. The reason I say "think" is, I ain't ever looked. 
My guess is, if you want something that will cover every possible scenario, go become a Navy SEAL. And while it's true that if there are five different schools in your area, you should go see which one best suits you - that's just common sense.

I think limitations lie more within the practitioner, than within any particular system. One caveat to that - if your training doesn't include some form of hard contact and pressure, surprises in the real world may negate everything you ever trained in the dojo.


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## seasoned (Mar 11, 2012)

Buka said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a style or school that's perfect. The reason I say "think" is, I ain't ever looked.
> My guess is, if you want something that will cover every possible scenario, go become a Navy SEAL. And while it's true that if there are five different schools in your area, you should go see which one best suits you - that's just common sense.
> 
> I think limitations lie more within the practitioner, than within any particular system. One caveat to that - _*if your training doesn't include some form of hard contact and pressure, surprises in the real world may negate everything you ever trained in the dojo*_.


I saw first hand no contact point sparring back in the 60s and 70s, with some awesome fighters. Super Foot Wallace, and Chuck Norris come to mind, that went on to fight full contact and did well. While I saw some that were bad a$$ in the dojo, only to be out one night, and found themselves in a bad situation and actually pulled their techniques and got their a$$ handed to them. 

"Train the way you want to react for real", because the way you train is the way you will defend yourself when all he_ _ opens up.............


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## shinbushi (Mar 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:
			
		

> Why does MMA always come up when people want to disparage a martial art?


because they don't wear pajamas.


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## Buka (Mar 11, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I saw first hand no contact point sparring back in the 60s and 70s, with some awesome fighters. Super Foot Wallace, and Chuck Norris come to mind, that went on to fight full contact and did well. While I saw some that were bad a$$ in the dojo, only to be out one night, and found themselves in a bad situation and actually pulled their techniques and got their a$$ handed to them.
> 
> "Train the way you want to react for real", because the way you train is the way you will defend yourself when all he_ _ opens up.............



Back in the days of those guys, there was a whole lot of contact going on in training. As there was in a lot of traditional dojos as well. As there is today, too, I'm sure. Were those guys, and their ilk, prepared for every possible self defense encounter imaginable? Damned if I know. But their attitude sure as hell was. Oh, you betcha.


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## MJS (Mar 11, 2012)

Chuck Johnson said:


> Howdy folks. Just published another MA article in my blog. I wrote this being as big a fan of MMA & Kickboxing as everyone else, but also wanting to bring to light the fact that as combat systems, neither one of them is still perfect. Particularly since at the end of the day, they are both still sports. Hope you find it to be an enjoyable read!
> 
> 
> http://chuck-n-action.blogspot.com/2...g-in-self.html



IMHO, I'd say that the only limitations are the venues.  While there probably are some MMA gyms that do focus on street application, the majority, or at least the majority that I've seen, focus on the sport/ring aspect.  Now, I'd also say that in a 1 on 1 street fight, sure, its very possible that the sport fighter could pull off a win.  It's possible that he could find himself in trouble, should the other things you mention in the blog, present themselves in the fight.


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## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2012)

MJS said:


> IMHO, I'd say that the only limitations are the venues. While there probably are some MMA gyms that do focus on street application, the majority, or at least the majority that I've seen, focus on the sport/ring aspect. Now, I'd also say that in a 1 on 1 street fight, sure, its very possible that the sport fighter could pull off a win. It's possible that he could find himself in trouble, should the other things you mention in the blog, present themselves in the fight.




That could be said about every style and every dojo etc. A good many martial artists while training for SD don't actually have any actual contact. There's too many factors all in all to fights that can make any martial artist, bare knuckle fighter or Olympic TKDist win or lose a fight.
People pretending that because MMA is a competitive sport so is no good for SD while they train 'seriously' isn't going to help when they get attacked for real. Far better that people concentrate on their own training rather than worrying about MMA people are doing.


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## MJS (Mar 12, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> That could be said about every style and every dojo etc. A good many martial artists while training for SD don't actually have any actual contact. There's too many factors all in all to fights that can make any martial artist, bare knuckle fighter or Olympic TKDist win or lose a fight.
> People pretending that because MMA is a competitive sport so is no good for SD while they train 'seriously' isn't going to help when they get attacked for real. Far better that people concentrate on their own training rather than worrying about MMA people are doing.



Well, of course, you are very correct.   Of course, one would think that if one was training for MMA, SD, etc, that they would gear their training accordingly, and that should include contact.  For the life of me, I can't see how anyone who is involved in the martial arts, could even remotely begin to function without any contact.  

But, FWIW, my post wasn't meant to take a shot at a particular group.  I'm simply stating what I see.  As an example....just down the road from where I live, there is one of Ken Shamrocks Lions Den gyms.  Huge array of training available.  Its all geared towards MMA.  Up the road in the other direction is a Japanese Jujitsu/BJJ gym.  The programs are taught seperately, however, should someone wish to add in more SD oriented training, its right there.


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## puunui (Mar 12, 2012)

chinto said:


> I find that a lot, not all MMA types have trained for the ring. Also many seem to emphasize BJJ. Bjj is a good system for what it is, but not what I would choose for the street.



I trained in Gracie Jiujitsu when Relson Gracie first moved to Hawaii and was teaching out of a friend's garage, before the UFC thing and before the brazilian jiujitsu craze. I was his second local student, after Enson Inoue. Anyway, our classes back then were about 50% ground grappling and 50% self defense stuff, defense against punch, knife, kick, head lock, etc. The techniques shown are the same ones in the Gracie Jiujitsu book written by GM Helio Gracie. Back then, there was a heavy emphasis on self defense or street defense. Relson was very proud of that emphasis, and includes all that on his black belt tests. His black belts have to know those self defense techniques. I think there are a little over 100 techniques. So maybe people can make the argument that MMA stuff doesn't have self defense value, but I don't think that can be said about the Gracie system itself. Also, I don't care what anyone says, if a Gracie guy gets you on the ground, and you don't know how to defend against it, you are toast, and it won't be some long drawn out thing either. Or at least that has been my experience. The Gracies have revolutionized the martial arts, and I cannot believe people still disrespect it, thinking it is nothing. It is something, I have to say. Great workout too, rolling, something you can do everyday without getting injured, unlike kick punch oriented sparring. I drink a smoothie every weekday morning based on the gracie diet as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize the genius that went into the creation of Gracie Jiujitsu.


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## puunui (Mar 12, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I see fights every week, sometimes I necessarily have to get involved in breaking them up, sometimes they even start in front of us. I'm not unused to seeing fights, as I said the travellers fights will go on for a long time, they make a point of it. Something I doubt you have where you are then, we have a traveller camp just a few miles away as well as travellers who come from other places. I've seen all sorts of fights start, finish, start up again and what have you.



What is a traveler camp?


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## SavageMan (Mar 12, 2012)

If I may Tez3 I'll respond to puunui to you for this one. Although I'm a Yank by birth I'm also Scott Irish. And had the great fortune to grow up white trash. "Travelers" is a modernized term used for  mostly Irish gypsies. Sometimes called Caravaners. Aye be close to my Mick heart they are. Here in the states they are mostly know for their driveway pavement scams and the fact that they speak Gaelic amongst themselves. But now and again they are known for underground bare knuckle fights and have a reputation as scrappers. Now back to the original subject. Tez3 is absolutely right about fakers in MMA. I have 3 guys who actually cage fight from my school. The rest of us train on the mats and I act as a crash test dummy for the young fighters. Too many people wear the clothes but never sweat in them. It does hurt MMA that it has become so popular that everybody wants to either claim it or hate it. Jeet Kune Do went through the same thing. A Lot of schools and gyms attach MMA to the name without a legitimate program. 
I have another question or two for all those traditionalist Martial Artist out there who have gone so far to rationalize there view points on bashing MMA. First of all most of you also practice a weapons art correct. Ancient weapons like swords, Bo staffs, kramas. Now once a weapon loses it's validation in modern society can it really be considered a martial art? Or is it more like modern dance with a sharp object? Go buy a gun and stop pretending your the last samurai. If you are practicing an art that you'll never be able to actually apply how can you judge someone for learning multiple arts that can be used in real life situations. How many times in multiple threads do we hear from traditionalist " Your body is your greatest weapon." Just because he or she is an MMA fighter doesn't grantee that they have no weapons training or don't train in a weapons defense. Japanese Jiu Jitsu teaches weapons defense. Kali / stick knife techniques will often go hand in hand with Muay Thai. Second if you say it won't apply to multiple attackers that are armed tell me a form that will. From everything I've seen from traditional forms the whole coordinated 1/2 speed drills you guys do might look good on film but it will get you killed in real life. As a former LEO and a current Correctional officer at one of Americas most violent Penitentiary's I can tell you first hand when it comes to multiple armed attackers you better be skilled in REEBOK DO or your going to get your butt handed to you and stomped in the dirt if not dead. All those half speed small circle moves you've been practicing with your white belt cronies for years will get you killed. 
Any time a martial art is transitioned over to a sport it has to have rules so that people don't get hurt or worse dead. Tae Kwon Do gets bashed all the time by the same people that bash MMA calling it a sport and not applicable in a real life fight. Well then why do they teach it to security for Dignitaries in South Korea? Because you don't follow the rules of the sport in real life situations. MMA practitioners train hard and are among the best conditioned fighters out there. To say that because it's a sport an MMA fighter on the street wouldn't follow through because of rules in a sport is ridiculous. Ever hear of the fight or fight reaction. It's all instinct from there. I think people need to focus on what they might be lacking in their own training. Maybe work on their approach towards social skills when it comes to other forms and take a cue from the old TV show Kong Fu and "BE humble Grasshopper" before they start knocking on others. After all of the bashing MMA has taken from this thread, if I've offended anyone I'd have to say good. It's a taste of what we and in "we" I mean true MMA practitioners get way to often.:soapbox:


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## chinto (Mar 13, 2012)

yes true, every dojo is a little different. some are set up more for Self Defense then others, and some students train for Self Defense where others do not.  

I have seen some people who do a lot of tournaments that would be hell on wheels if attacked, and I have seen a couple Marines who just got out of basic, with its MCMAP and well I do not think they could survive an attack by 5th graders.  ( more about their personality's and their mind set then what they had learned really in the marines case)


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2012)

Travellers are indeed the gypsy community and they have a proud tradition of using their fists for sorting out arguments, my instructror has had a couple of fights with them when he was doing the doors in a place where they have one of their horse fairs. He said they were fair, it's one on one and if you beat your opponent that's the end of it.We have a couple of traveller lads who train with us, nice lads, always polite. 





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlsaYJ4Xz1Q&feature=related

Quite often a bunch of local lads will get some alcohol induced 'bravery' and go looking to beat up travellers, it never ends well with them having to limp back to town. The travellers will fight with rules, even their grudge matches will have rounds and time outs but they can also fight dirty when they need to defend themselves. It's not just in how you train, it's in your mind most of all.


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