# Lop Da Drill



## KPM (Oct 10, 2016)

On another thread Guy B. wrote:

*Let's discuss bong and/or the bong lap drill, that would be great. I did try to discuss earlier but nobody wanted to.*

Great idea!   Since this is a very prominent aspect of nearly every Phillip Bayer video on youtube, I would love to hear more about how WSLVT views it and what it trains.

From a Pin Sun Wing Chun perspective it is not nearly as "central" a drill as it appears to be in WSLVT.......we see this as a relatively simple and straight-forward beginner's drill that is just one of many.  We do it a little differently than what you see in most Ip Man lineages.   You see it here at the 1:35 minute mark:







The punch is a "Gwai Choi", which is a type of "back-knuckle", and not a straight punch.  The forearms stay in contact at the "pivot point" the entire time and do not disengage.   When used outside of the drill, rather than using a common pivot at the mutual forearm contact, from the Bong the Gwai Choi swings around as the elbow pins the opponent's arm just above the elbow and the strike is aimed at the bridge of the nose.


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## guy b (Oct 10, 2016)

KPM said:


> On another thread Guy B. wrote:
> 
> *Let's discuss bong and/or the bong lap drill, that would be great. I did try to discuss earlier but nobody wanted to.*
> 
> Great idea!   Since this is a very prominent aspect of nearly every Phillip Bayer video on youtube, I would love to hear more about how WSLVT views it and what it trains.



Hi KPM, just a quick answer because I am going to bed: bong lap is indeed used very frequently in VT and often integrated into wider chi sau. It is primarily training punching structure in terms of coordination of pull and punch with the whole body working together, as well as the ability to absorb and channel force received. It trains balance, speed, body unity in the punch. It also teaches about changing when an attack is met with resistance, and it teaches about bong sau. 

It presents a lot of opportunity for variation and can become quite complex, but I think that it is primarily a force exchange drill and this is why it is done very often.



> From a Pin Sun Wing Chun perspective it is not nearly as "central" a drill as it appears to be in WSLVT.......we see this as a relatively simple and straight-forward beginner's drill that is just one of many.  We do it a little differently than what you see in most Ip Man lineages.   You see it here at the 1:35 minute mark:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is indeed quite a different way of doing the drill. Interesting to see how it is done in your system and to see the superficial similarities but quite big differences in terms of how it must work and fit together as a system?


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## Danny T (Oct 10, 2016)

KPM said:


> On another thread Guy B. wrote:
> 
> *Let's discuss bong and/or the bong lap drill, that would be great. I did try to discuss earlier but nobody wanted to.*
> 
> ...


This is quite different from how we do the Bong/Lop drill in several aspects. Timing, positioning of the Bong, the punching arm, and the lop arm structure during the lop as well as after. We do the straight punch as well as the back fist and we do a sot sao switch, a pak sao switch, and a jao sao switch.


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## KPM (Oct 11, 2016)

Danny T said:


> This is quite different from how we do the Bong/Lop drill in several aspects. Timing, positioning of the Bong, the punching arm, and the lop arm structure during the lop as well as after. We do the straight punch as well as the back fist and we do a sot sao switch, a pak sao switch, and a jao sao switch.



We also have several switches.   And yesterday I forgot that I actually put this on one of my own videos, which may be a better example!  Starting here at the 16:00 minute mark:






You can see that the timing is different from most Ip Man versions.  The Lop isn't really so much of a grab (even momentarily), but more of a cover.  In fact, the name of the "extension" set that this comes directly from is called "Cup Da Sau" or "Cover Hit Hand."


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## wckf92 (Oct 11, 2016)

Interesting to see the Pin Sun Lop drill. Thx for posting.

So, do any of you guys 'disengage' a little from your partners arm, when your arm is transitioning from Bong to Punch?


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## Danny T (Oct 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> We also have several switches.   And yesterday I forgot that I actually put this on one of my own videos, which may be a better example!  Starting here at the 16:00 minute mark:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, Keith 
This is more to how we drill. Sticking to the opponent's arm and rolling into the following strike. (we often refer to the drill as the Bong-Cut-Roll drill)
We don't grab for the most part either. The wu sao simple cuts with no up and down movement of the elbow. It can become a lop using the little to middle finger, a jum action, or a gum action. We don't pull the opponent's arm down or back. We also use a Biu-Bong-Roll drill where the lop happens after the bong roll.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 11, 2016)

I have learned in two different lineages.

In the Ip Ching lineage, the lop is a grab and pull. My current Sifu learned from both Augustine Fong and Jack Ling. In their version, the lop is more of a cover than a grab. Personally, I have always felt that bong/lop drill is setting people up to be introduced to chi sao, especially when you get into using techniques that will switch you from one side to the other.

The thing is...with that first video, it looks to me like they are just trying to go fast without any feel for sensitivity or structure. I mean no disrespect...just describing how it looks to me. Wing chun isn't just about fast hands, but there are so many videos out there that would have people believe otherwise. There has to be proper rooting and structure behind the attacks, or getting hit with them would just leave a little sting at best.


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## guy b (Oct 11, 2016)

Good example of the drill from PB here


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## wingchun100 (Oct 11, 2016)

I like that because it is a lot more dynamic than just pivoting from one side to the next.


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## Danny T (Oct 11, 2016)

guy b said:


> Good example of the drill from PB here


This is good and is but another level of using it from the chi sao platform rather than the learning platform.


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## KPM (Oct 11, 2016)

guy b said:


> It is primarily training punching structure in terms of coordination of pull and punch with the whole body working together, as well as the ability to absorb and channel force received. It trains balance, speed, body unity in the punch. It also teaches about changing when an attack is met with resistance, and it teaches about bong sau.
> 
> It presents a lot of opportunity for variation and can become quite complex, but I think that it is primarily a force exchange drill and this is why it is done very often.



No real "pull" in our version, and as you can see we are training a punch that is not the typical straight punch.  But we are working the coordination of the whole body.  We "sink" with the punch and "rise" a bit with the next Bong.  We use it as a reflex drill to really get the desired response into "muscle memory."  The response we are trying to ingrain is that as soon as you sense something crossing your "Kiu" or forearm from outside inward...you roll into Bong and right into the Gwai Choi without pause.  So the Bong would never really stop or "pause" as in the drill.  Its that  old "flexible bamboo" analogy.....someone presses across your forearm and it "gives" momentarily like a bamboo pole as a Bong and snaps right back as the Gwai Choi.  So it is trained fast to really get that "snapping back" sense and with many many reps to ingrain the response.

What I see in the PB videos is that he is using his Bong essentially as a barrier.  Is that accurate?  He puts it up, and depending on how the opponent responds, he flows from there.  This seems like a natural out-growth of Chi Sau, since the Ip Man Chi Sau roll uses the same Bong.  But in Pin Sun we don't do the Chi Sau rolling like that, so the Bong isn't used that way either.


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## Danny T (Oct 11, 2016)

In the above video Bayer seems to present his bong more often as a high lan sao (several times he did do more of a bong) where as the other person presented what appears to be a more conventional bong.


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## KPM (Oct 11, 2016)

^^^^^^ Yes, that is what I was seeing as well.  Using Bong as a barrier, just like a Lan Sau.  That's the impression I've gotten from a lot of his past videos as well.


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## guy b (Oct 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> What I see in the PB videos is that he is using his Bong essentially as a barrier.  Is that accurate?



No bong isn't used as a barrier and drill isn't teaching applications. Sorry I am a bit busy with work, will try to type a fuller answer when I am free


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## guy b (Oct 11, 2016)

Basic drill


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## Danny T (Oct 11, 2016)

guy b said:


> Basic drill


Very similar to what we do. Timing is about the same. My sifu would not like the raised elbow on the lop arm. Of course because of Bayer's left arm he can't use the palm to maintain pressure with so he needs to sink the elbow a bit more. At 11 seconds you can see how his arm slips of Wong's. If not them drilling Wong simply futs and he's in. Happens again at 13 seconds.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> You see it here at the 1:35 minute mark:


At 1:35, what kind of power can you generate by freezing your body and upper arm and only move your lower arm? Even if your punch may land on your opponent's face, can you truly knock him down?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 11, 2016)

dup, deleted.


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## KPM (Oct 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> At 1:35, what kind of power can you generate by freezing your body and upper arm and only move your lower arm? Even if your punch may land on your opponent's face, can you truly knock him down?



Are you referring to the Gwai Choi?  You don't "freeze the body."  You sink as you deliver the punch.  In the Lop Da drill itself there is just fast repetition to develop muscle memory as I said before.  You obviously can't carry through with the punch because it is a continuous drill. Check out the clip of myself that I posted and I explain the Gwai Choi more there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 11, 2016)

KPM said:


> Are you referring to the Gwai Choi?  You don't "freeze the body."  You sink as you deliver the punch.  In the Lop Da drill itself there is just fast repetition to develop muscle memory as I said before.  You obviously can't carry through with the punch because it is a continuous drill. Check out the clip of myself that I posted and I explain the Gwai Choi more there.


It looks like a "back fist" to me.

It's a speed vs. power issue. The power comes from the body is not shown there. The preying mantis system also has this concern. You want to show fast combo, you end with only move part of your body and not the whole body. The "body rotation" is missing there. Again, if you add "body rotation" into it, you won't be able to do a fast combo.

CMA has a lot of these kind of "fast combo" that you can "throw 6 punches in 1 second". It may be good for "set up" but it's not good for "knock out".


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## Danny T (Oct 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It looks like a "back fist" to me.
> 
> It's a speed vs. power issue. The power comes from the body is not shown there. The preying mantis system also has this concern. You want to show fast combo, you end with only move part of your body and not the whole body. The "body rotation" is missing there. Again, if you add "body rotation" into it, you won't be able to do a fast combo.
> 
> CMA has a lot of these kind of "fast combo" that you can "throw 6 punches in 1 second". It may be good for "set up" but it's not good for "knock out".


In Post 1 of this thread KPM noted:
"The punch is a "Gwai Choi", which is a type of "back-knuckle", and not a straight punch."
In Post #4 in his video at around 15:45 he describes and demonstrates the gwai choi and yes it can be referred to as a 'back fist' but in his system it is utilized in a specific manner. Also the power generation is also described.

In the specific rolling drill they are not drilling power generation but getting reps in for presenting the punch (without punching) and for the training partner to get reps in for the presentation of the bong sao structure. At this point the drill Is Not about power generation.


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## Lobo66 (Oct 12, 2016)

Lap Sau Drill

The lap sau drill is an important drill in Ving Tsun.  You could say that it's a natural segueway between chi sau and gwoh sau.  It’s  a highly dynamic and also deep drill that helps to develop the central tools and strategies of the system -  general attributes such as dynamic alignement, footwork, distance and timing, as well as specific actions such as bong, lap, pak, jut, fak, etc.

The lap sau drill is NOT just about standing in place and changing from bong to lap/punch or lap/fak or lap/back fist or what have you.

One could see the two sides, the bong/wu and the man/wu (it’s not really man/wu but that’s how I refer to it) as representing two different strategies.  The bong/wu side is the « active » side, as it represents a position that is far from ideal (only one hand directed toward the opponent) and must be changed or converted quickly.  The wu/man side, on the other hand, represents the idea of "waiting and probing"…with many possibilities for counter-attack.

The over-arching idea of "attacking into the attack » and cutting off the opponent’s possibilites for counter attack is ever present in this drill.  But also the idea of leading your opponent into your counter attack by managing distance and space.

But none of this is possible if the drill remains static and dead.  Of course, for beginners struggling with the basic coordination of the drill it’s ok to remain in place and pivot back and forth with the basic changes.  But sooner rather than later it should become dynamic.

In the videos of Philipp Bayer and Michael Kurth, one can clearly see these ideas in action.  Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.

As Brandon Gibson puts it in is great little book « How To Bang - Explosive Punching for Combat Athletes » : « Balance and maintaing your center….will allow you ease and speed of movement, the ability to maintain constant motion, and allow you to give or receive any attack without finding yourself out of position or unable to respond."


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## KPM (Oct 12, 2016)

*Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.*

Do you think this idea of "attacking into the attack" is what gives the appearance of using the Bong as a barrier in the videos we have seen?  Is the Bong itself being used to "attack into" the opponent's movement? 

I see the logic in this.  I also see it as being a bit out of line with the Wing Chun maxim of "Bong Sau does not remain."   In Pin Sun we take that saying to heart.  We see the Bong as only a momentary transitional movement.   It the videos of PB the Bong seems to "remain" for far longer than what we would do in Pin Sun.  Just a different approach!


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## guy b (Oct 12, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> Lap Sau Drill
> 
> The lap sau drill is an important drill in Ving Tsun.  You could say that it's a natural segueway between chi sau and gwoh sau.  It’s  a highly dynamic and also deep drill that helps to develop the central tools and strategies of the system -  general attributes such as dynamic alignement, footwork, distance and timing, as well as specific actions such as bong, lap, pak, jut, fak, etc.
> 
> ...



Great post


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## guy b (Oct 12, 2016)

KPM said:


> *Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.*
> 
> Do you think this idea of "attacking into the attack" is what gives the appearance of using the Bong as a barrier in the videos we have seen?  Is the Bong itself being used to "attack into" the opponent's movement?
> 
> I see the logic in this.  I also see it as being a bit out of line with the Wing Chun maxim of "Bong Sau does not remain."   In Pin Sun we take that saying to heart.  We see the Bong as only a momentary transitional movement.   It the videos of PB the Bong seems to "remain" for far longer than what we would do in Pin Sun.  Just a different approach!



I think what you are seeing is PB providing a point of reference for his training partner. It is a drill after all, a learning process, and he is teaching. There are breaks and stop starts, as in any drill. It isn't "fighting" or direct application. Rather it is training certain aspects of fighting.

See here around 1.26 to get an idea of how bong is used in application. It is for when you are out of position, a recovery action


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## Lobo66 (Oct 12, 2016)

@KPM,
I actually think Philipp is maintaing a good "learning" rythm in the video posted, often pausing and correcting his student or even correcting during the flow of the drill. He is not using the bong like lan sau, in my opinion.

Bong sau can, of course, be used to "attack into the attack".  It's one of the basic changes in the drill.  A proper bong sau together with "cutting off" footwork will allow you to disrupt your opponent's alignment (see above video), giving you a good line of attack to shoot the vertical punch through (the wu sau hand converted to the punch, which is why it's so essential to not be lazy with the wu sau!).


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## Lobo66 (Oct 12, 2016)

Good example of what I'm talking about (dynamic of the drill) :


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## wckf92 (Oct 12, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> Good example of what I'm talking about (dynamic of the drill) :



Why, at about :36 and 1:40, does his right hand appear to be in a Gum sao / covering hand? Was he thinking his training partner / student was about to kick that area or....?


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## Lobo66 (Oct 12, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Why, at about :36 and 1:40, does his right hand appear to be in a Gum sao / covering hand? Was he thinking his training partner / student was about to kick that area or....?



Yep, I think you're right.  He must have felt that he was vunerable for a kick.


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## geezer (Oct 12, 2016)

I posted this on the wrong thread. KPM suggested I move it over here. So ....here's a video of the "WT" lap sau drill as shown by Alex Richter out of NYC. It's more linear and uses a front punch rather than a back-fist. It also avoids laying two hands on one as per the kuit "Yat fook yee mo yee fook yat". Since it uses a fook or jut rather than a committed lap, some schools prefer calling this repeating sequence "jut-chuen-da" rather than "lap-sau".






In my group we train this method and also the backfist method more commonly seen, often using a fak-sau instead of the backfist. They train different attributes, and each may be useful.


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## KPM (Oct 12, 2016)

^^^^ I've trained this way in the past as well.  From a Pin Sun perspective....I was taught specifically NOT to do this.  Pin Sun says the drill should be a 1 count, not a 2 count as shown above because that is not efficient.  We see the drill as teaching an important reflex response so that it becomes second nature.  Something crosses your bridge from above and..."bang!"...you smack with the Gwai Choi!  No time for this 2 count response, even when done as fast as you can!  And we don't have this same restriction of "2 hands on 1."  In fact, one our sets is called "Lung Na" and is a 2 handed grab to an opponent's arm that is designed to yank him right off of his feet!  Again, different approaches!


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## geezer (Oct 12, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ I've trained this way in the past as well.  From a Pin Sun perspective....I was taught specifically NOT to do this.  Pin Sun says the drill should be a 1 count, not a 2 count as shown above because that is not efficient.  We see the drill as teaching an important reflex response so that it becomes second nature.  Something crosses your bridge from above and..."bang!"...you smack with the Gwai Choi!  No time for this 2 count response, even when done as fast as you can!  And we don't have this same restriction of "2 hands on 1."  In fact, one our sets is called "Lung Na" and is a 2 handed grab to an opponent's arm that is designed to yank him right off of his feet!  Again,* different approaches! *



_Maybe not so different_ ...when you move from drill to reality ...as the drill _isn't_ application. It emphasizes forward intent (the first hand) which seeks to hit but is obstructed. It then becomes a jut, making a path for the second hand. When the second crosses over the first one snaps back so there is only an instant when both are on the bridge. When you use similar movements against an opponent you usually hit with the first hand and then jut and drive in the second. So you really shouldn't be a "one-two" movement for precisely the reasons you stated!

Keith, you may be right that a lot of drills are misunderstood as direct application and could lead to that one-two, deflect then strike approach. I agree that would not be optimal from a WT/WC/VT perspective.

As far as the two handed grab thingie you described, we have some similar moves. If you know what you are doing and do it right, two hands on one can work quite well. The kuen kuit, like_ most aphorisms have two sides_. Sort of like saying "Haste makes waste" and on the other hand "He who hesitates is lost", or "a penny saved is a penny earned" but you can be "penny-wise and pound foolish", and so on.


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## Danny T (Oct 12, 2016)

geezer said:


> _Maybe not so different_ ...when you move from drill to reality ...as the drill _isn't_ application. It emphasizes forward intent (the first hand) which seeks to hit but is obstructed. It then becomes a jut, making a path for the second hand. When the second crosses over the first one snaps back so there is only an instant when both are on the bridge. When you use similar movements against an opponent you usually hit with the first hand and then jut and drive in the second. So you really shouldn't be a "one-two" movement for precisely the reasons you stated!
> 
> Keith, you may be right that a lot of drills are misunderstood as direct application and could lead to that one-two, deflect then strike approach. I agree that would not be optimal from a WT/WC/VT perspective.
> 
> As far as the two handed grab thingie you described, we have some similar moves. If you know what you are doing and do it right, two hands on one can work quite well. The kuen kuit, like_ most aphorisms have two sides_. Sort of like saying "Haste makes waste" and on the other hand "He who hesitates is lost", or "a penny saved is a penny earned" but you can be "penny-wise and pound foolish", and so on.


It is always situational.
So we also have options.


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## Lobo66 (Oct 13, 2016)

@KPM  I think the two counts used to perform the drill in the video posted by Geezer is probably a beginning phase for the student to learn the right coordination.  I would hope that at a later stage this would become "two actions in one beat".  

There is no guarantee that that is the case, however.  And it's certainly true that I've seen all too many WC schools perform this drill as static as shown in the video.  

The lack of an "alive", dynamic and pysically challenging training is a big problem in WC, no matter what the drill.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 13, 2016)

Now that is the bong/lop I have come to know and love, although in the school I attend now we use a few different techniques to force us to change sides.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> *Always maintaining balance, managing distance, and superior timing in attacking into the attack.*
> 
> Do you think this idea of "attacking into the attack" is what gives the appearance of using the Bong as a barrier in the videos we have seen?  Is the Bong itself being used to "attack into" the opponent's movement?
> 
> I see the logic in this.  I also see it as being a bit out of line with the Wing Chun maxim of "Bong Sau does not remain."   In Pin Sun we take that saying to heart.  We see the Bong as only a momentary transitional movement.   It the videos of PB the Bong seems to "remain" for far longer than what we would do in Pin Sun.  Just a different approach!





Lobo66 said:


> @KPM  I think the two counts used to perform the drill in the video posted by Geezer is probably a beginning phase for the student to learn the right coordination.  I would hope that at a later stage this would become "two actions in one beat".
> 
> There is no guarantee that that is the case, however.  And it's certainly true that I've seen all too many WC schools perform this drill as static as shown in the video.
> 
> The lack of an "alive", dynamic and pysically challenging training is a big problem in WC, no matter what the drill.





Lobo66 said:


> @KPM  I think the two counts used to perform the drill in the video posted by Geezer is probably a beginning phase for the student to learn the right coordination.  I would hope that at a later stage this would become "two actions in one beat".
> 
> There is no guarantee that that is the case, however.  And it's certainly true that I've seen all too many WC schools perform this drill as static as shown in the video.
> 
> The lack of an "alive", dynamic and pysically challenging training is a big problem in WC, no matter what the drill.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------- As with many other things- there is a difference between good and mediocre lop sao.
Good ones can be done with a single beat. And- back fisting is bad....can be easily stopped.


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## guy b (Oct 13, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- As with many other things- there is a difference between good and mediocre lop sao.
> Good ones can be done with a single beat. And- back fisting is bad....can be easily stopped.



Do you like any of the examples of the drill posted on the thread? Anything you would change/emphasize/de-emphasize about anything posted or discussed so far?


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## KPM (Oct 13, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- As with many other things- there is a difference between good and mediocre lop sao.
> Good ones can be done with a single beat. And- back fisting is bad....can be easily stopped.



Did you even bother to watch the vid I posted explaining that "back fist"??


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## Vajramusti (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> Did you even bother to watch the vid I posted explaining that "back fist"??


----------------------------------------
IMO still a bad idea. Can be easily countered


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------
> IMO still a bad idea. Can be easily countered



Again, did you actually watch my video explanation?  It is not as "easily countered" as you think when done outside of the drill. The drill is simply to get in lots of reps to establish good "muscle memory."  From the Bong the elbow comes forward and traps the opponent's arm by pinning it above the elbow as the punch swings downward from above.  It is not a "flicky" backfist at all.  This makes it very difficult for them to do their own Bong as a counter.  If the opponent manages to stop the Gwai Choi with their Wu hand, then the cover hand immediately flows through the opening as a rising punch to the throat or chin.  If I recall, your friend Alan Lamb also teaches the Lop Da drill with a "backfist."


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## guy b (Oct 14, 2016)

Any comments of any of the clips posted or discussion so far Joy?


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## geezer (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> Again, did you actually watch my video explanation?  It is not as "easily countered" as you think when done outside of the drill. The drill is simply to get in lots of reps to establish good "muscle memory."  From the Bong the elbow comes forward and traps the opponent's arm by pinning it above the elbow as the punch swings downward from above.  It is not a "flicky" backfist at all.  This makes it very difficult for them to do their own Bong as a counter.  If the opponent manages to stop the Gwai Choi with their Wu hand, then the cover hand immediately flows through the opening as a rising punch to the throat or chin.  If I recall, your friend Alan Lamb also teaches the Lop Da drill with a "backfist."



Gwai-Choi ...would that be a "kneeling fist"? With dropping elbow and sinking energy? If so, it would have a lot more body behind it than a mere "arm flick". In our Biu Tze form there is an arm movement like that that can have many different applications ranging from a dropping elbow, to a slip under/or around a block to a throat spear, ...and finally, to (at least in my VT) a "kneeling fist" which_ looks_ like a backfist but _feels_ a lot heavier.

See 1:41-2 and again at 1:46 in the clip below--


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## Vajramusti (Oct 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> Any comments of any of the clips posted or discussion so far Joy?


------------------------------------------------------
For now read Andrew Ma's comments:Hang Lum Andrew Ma | Facebook

Ho Kam ming doing lop sao in Macao


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2016)

geezer said:


> Gwai-Choi ...would that be a "kneeling fist"? With dropping elbow and sinking energy? If so, it would have a lot more body behind it than a mere "arm flick".



I don't speak Cantonese, but we usually translate it as "Hanging Punch" and Gwai Ma as "Hanging Stance."   And you are correct!  It is not an "out and back" flicky punch.  It is a circular punch aimed downwards as you drop your weight.  It has a lot body behind it.  When I practice on B.O.B (my most loyal training partner) I can hit him with enough force that his chin touches his chest.  This punch would easily break the bridge of someone's nose if landed correctly.


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------
> For now read Andrew Ma's comments:Hang Lum Andrew Ma | Facebook
> 
> Ho Kam ming doing lop sao in Macao



I scrolled pretty far down the page and didn't see any videos.   If this is embedded in one of his long posts, it would be nice if you were a little more specific.


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## PiedmontChun (Oct 14, 2016)

I was taught the drill Geezer posted, pretty much verbatim, with Fook Sau instead of a Lop. It is a precursor to chi-sau and teaches some basic mechanics and responsive actions. It can be returned to and more actions / responses added in, it can be randomized and made a bit more dynamic, but it is regarded as a drill. Gor Sau and Lat Sau have more intent on application.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 14, 2016)

PiedmontChun said:


> I was taught the drill Geezer posted, pretty much verbatim, with Fook Sau instead of a Lop. It is a precursor to chi-sau and teaches some basic mechanics and responsive actions. It can be returned to and more actions / responses added in, it can be randomized and made a bit more dynamic, but it is regarded as a drill. Gor Sau and Lat Sau have more intent on application.


 
That has always been my interpretation of it too,


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## Lobo66 (Oct 14, 2016)

Ho Kam Ming version of the exercise as demonstrated by Liu Ming Fai and Louisa Chow.






Is this a good representation of the drill in this lineage, Vajramusti?


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2016)

^^^^ You know, that punch looks very easy to counter.


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## guy b (Oct 14, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------
> For now read Andrew Ma's comments:Hang Lum Andrew Ma | Facebook
> 
> Ho Kam ming doing lop sao in Macao



Thanks for posting. There is some interesting chat on the facebook page but I can't find any videos unfortunately.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 14, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> Ho Kam Ming version of the exercise as demonstrated by Liu Ming Fai and Louisa Chow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes it is. Note the 50/50 baalnced stance, both hands working together, mabo footwork and the aim at the moving target- not a dummy.


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## Lobo66 (Oct 15, 2016)

There is a second short clip of the same two demonstrating some more lap sau. In both clips we can see 1) pushing against the arms, which is not going to develop the right dynamic for punching 2) a lack of agile footwork and 3) a "stilted" and "stiff" quality to the work.  No dynamic flow.  Which is important, I believe, in training for real fighting.


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## wckf92 (Oct 15, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> pushing against the arms, which is not going to develop the right dynamic for punching.



@Lobo66 ...can you elaborate on the "pushing" against the arms bit? Thx 

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk


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## guy b (Oct 15, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> There is a second short clip of the same two demonstrating some more lap sau. In both clips we can see 1) pushing against the arms, which is not going to develop the right dynamic for punching 2) a lack of agile footwork and 3) a "stilted" and "stiff" quality to the work.  No dynamic flow.  Which is important, I believe, in training for real fighting.



To be fair it looks ike he is working with a complete beginner which may have caused what you see. I would be interested to see more from this group


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## Lobo66 (Oct 15, 2016)

Yes, you could be right guy b.  That's the tricky thing with video.  We don't always know the context.  I, too, would like to see more from the group.

I see too much arm tension and "pushing" against the arms.  This is not the sam as "forward intent" or "forward springy energy".  The "springy" quality is missing IMO.  There doesn't need to be contact between the arms at all after the lap/da meets the other's bong/wu position.  There should be a tiny gap....a relaxation but with maintaining forward intent.  Just like in working with the dummy.


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## Danny T (Oct 15, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> Ho Kam Ming version of the exercise as demonstrated by Liu Ming Fai and Louisa Chow.
> 
> Is this a good representation of the drill in this lineage, Vajramusti?





guy b said:


> To be fair it looks ike he is working with a complete beginner which may have caused what you see. I would be interested to see more from this group


For the level at which it is being used this is good. A good partner will allow you to grow and improve and bad partner will just overwhelm you and keep you overwhelmed. A good partner will bring you up slowly increasing speed, angles, and speed as you gain the abilities. A bad partner will overwhelm you and keep you overwhelmed. Work to improve.


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## Juany118 (Oct 15, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I have learned in two different lineages.
> 
> In the Ip Ching lineage, the lop is a grab and pull. .



In William Cheung Lineage it's similar but more of a grab and pull, but some will call it grab and "press" instead as the movement can often be more of a pressing down, though the result can be that the opponent is pulled off balance.

Here's one of the few examples I could find online.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 15, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> There is a second short clip of the same two demonstrating some more lap sau. In both clips we can see 1) pushing against the arms, which is not going to develop the right dynamic for punching 2) a lack of agile footwork and 3) a "stilted" and "stiff" quality to the work.  No dynamic flow.  Which is important, I believe, in training for real fighting.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Differences in perceptions. I dont know what you mean by "pushing", or "stilted". I have met both persons and rolled with them.
Lui Ming Fai has been in real fights and full contact matches in Hong Kong, Macao and SE Asia,


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## Vajramusti (Oct 15, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Differences in perceptions. I dont know what you mean by "pushing", or "stilted". I have met both persons and rolled with them.
> Lui Ming Fai has been in real fights and full contact matches in Hong Kong, Macao and SE Asia,


---------------------------------------------
PS. Luis Ming Fai doing the forms


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## Lobo66 (Oct 16, 2016)

Well, I mean that it looks stiff, slow and un-coordinated.  Not relaxed and dynamic. 
Compare again to this clip :





Kudos if he's been in some full contact matches.  A real venue for competition is what CMA really needs (already exists for sanda and shaui jiao, of course) to evolve.


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## guy b (Oct 16, 2016)

Posted again for comparison:













Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Differences in perceptions. I dont know what you mean by "pushing", or "stilted". I have met both persons and rolled with them.
> Lui Ming Fai has been in real fights and full contact matches in Hong Kong, Macao and SE Asia,



I has assumed the female was a beginner. Is this not the case?


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## guy b (Oct 16, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> Lui Ming Fai has been in real fights and full contact matches in Hong Kong, Macao and SE Asia,



Some free movement stuff at 37.45 here:


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## guy b (Oct 16, 2016)

more drilling:


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## KPM (Oct 16, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Differences in perceptions.



You really think so?  Do you think the same might apply to your criticisms of others???


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## guy b (Oct 16, 2016)

KPM said:


> You really think so?  Do you think the same might apply to your criticisms of others???



I would say that the Michael Kurth clips are showing a more advanced and flowing use of the drill, and that Kurth is clearly very good. I would agree that in comparison the Liu Ming Fai clip is slow, hesitant and looks stilted, which I had assumed was due to the training partner. Could also be that they are demonstrating slowly on purpose. 

The Kurth clip is much better, but the reason for this is not clear. Would need to see more of LMF and would not assume his VT is not good. A shame more footage is not available


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## KPM (Oct 16, 2016)

guy b said:


> I would say that the Michael Kurth clips are showing a more advanced and flowing use of the drill, and that Kurth is clearly very good. I would agree that in comparison the Liu Ming Fai clip is slow, hesitant and looks stilted, which I had assumed was due to the training partner. Could also be that they are demonstrating slowly on purpose.
> 
> The Kurth clip is much better, but the reason for this is not clear. Would need to see more of LMF and would not assume his VT is not good. A shame more footage is not available



I completely agree.  The Michael Kurth clips did show a more advanced and flowing use of the drill.  It could be that the Kurth clip is normal training that happened to be filmed, while the Liu Ming Fai clip was specifically for a demo.


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## Juany118 (Oct 16, 2016)

KPM said:


> I completely agree.  The Michael Kurth clips did show a more advanced and flowing use of the drill.  It could be that the Kurth clip is normal training that happened to be filmed, while the Liu Ming Fai clip was specifically for a demo.



Yeah, I think so people sometimes forget that in demos you don't always A. get the best partner and B. will slow and/make things more "obvious" so people see what you are doing.

A. In my experience is very important.  I'll admit to doing a lot more Kali flow drills than WC.  How well I flow in Sombrada is very much determined by my partner.  A Sombrada drill (for those unfamiliar) is a choreographed dance of sorts alternating attacks and counters.  The purpose is to teach flow and to get you to ingrain muscle memory for when you move on to doing "free form" improvised drills with the same movements.  If you don't match your partner's movements you risk taking a ratan stick to the head.  As a consequence if they aren't flowing well your flow can be compromised.


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## Lobo66 (Oct 17, 2016)

I think his partner in the demo is an advanced student and teacher as well.  

The short sparring sequence in the video above really says it all, though.  With all due respect to the people involved, it's just not good.


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## guy b (Oct 17, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> I think his partner in the demo is an advanced student and teacher as well



If that is the case then I hope Joy will comment to explain further what is happening in the clip


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## wingchun100 (Oct 18, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> Ho Kam Ming version of the exercise as demonstrated by Liu Ming Fai and Louisa Chow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I don't recall ever using footwork other than pivoting when I have done this drill. Pretty cool vid.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 18, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> Well, I mean that it looks stiff, slow and un-coordinated.  Not relaxed and dynamic.
> Compare again to this clip :
> 
> 
> ...


 
It is so hard to tell from video, but...when he practices on the dummy, it looks like all arms...no real "oompf" from his structure behind it.

But who am I? Just someone looking at it on a computer screen.


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## Danny T (Oct 18, 2016)

Two completely different levels and purposes being displayed.
It isn't that one is better but the purpose for doing the drill at that moment.

Demonstration is not the same as Drilling.
Drilling has several different levels.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 18, 2016)

guy b said:


> more drilling:


----------------------------------
they are not beginners but luis has been at  it for while.


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## guy b (Oct 18, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Two completely different levels and purposes being displayed.
> It isn't that one is better but the purpose for doing the drill at that moment.
> 
> Demonstration is not the same as Drilling.
> Drilling has several different levels.



Demonstrating entails exhibition but also showing others how to do something

To me this is demonstrating, it emparts an understanding of what is being shown:


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## Danny T (Oct 19, 2016)

guy b said:


> Demonstrating entails exhibition but also showing others how to do something
> 
> To me this is demonstrating, it emparts an understanding of what is being shown:


Drilling
Demonstrating
Teaching
All are different and what is show may well be different


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## guy b (Oct 19, 2016)

Teaching:


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