# A few thoughts



## Mekosho (Sep 18, 2004)

First off, let me say right up front, I am not one of those "Mitose is innocent and the trial was a farce" type of person. I see as the rest of you that there is much much evidence pointing to the opposite. That is what I want to address...Does anyone else find it the least bit interesting that the criminal system from way back when, who did not have the capability our justice sytem has now, could scrape up ALL the evidence to find this mysterious man, guilty as charged...I mean, ALL the jurors had to vote "guilty" correct? Isn't that how it works? Otherwise it is a hung jury? I mean, we, with all our technology, cannot even find out his real name or whether or not he really went to Japan, who was related, who wasn't...just sounds a little to conveinient to me! To borrow a very popular pre stetement phrase on this board..."IMHO".... I think, a man, of obvious Asian decent, during that period in our country's history let alone the fact that we had been to war with Japan, I really don't think he stood any more chance of a FAIR trial in that day and age as a black man in the same era...as a matter of fact, people still cry out about the unfairness of our legal sytem due to racial prejudice even nowadays..
Now, lets address the article where Mr Chow was interviewed...he claims Mr. Mitose a fraud...okay, this is a man who has blatently(?) lied of his connection to Mitose, has denied any traing with him and claims to have a family history of Kung Fu which has been almost completly proven to be untrue, so I feel, as a witness to someones ablity or character, Mr. Chow is an un qualified witness...and his opinion should be striken from the records...lol.
Now, someone on here spoke of our Mon, our crest, and thier theory concerning it and Mr. Trias...To be perfectly honest, I have not checked into that yet, but as far as the crest being in the wrong position, if you are speaking of the Hoken or covered fist being on top, that was not an accident...those symbols or hand postures are in the order we typically live by, or strive to live to by...the praying hands being on top as that is what we are suppose to do...Pray for no trouble, the second the hands overlapping symbolizes looking for the good in people  all people...and the final symbolizing our war arts...that is ALWAYS the last choice in a conflict...unless of course our country is ALREADY at war, then a conflict has already occured and we must battle...that is why the Mon was changed during that time...
Okay, almost done...I want to address the whole "Mitose visited and ED Parker school once and this is what happened" thing...I have heard Many many people say or parrot Mr. Parker that the technique Mr. Mitose did...one where a punch was thrown at him, he dropped to one knee and hit the person on the toe...Did he get hit? I mean...it does not have to be dramatic to be effective...did he get hit? NO!!!! and that is what Kosho is about first and formost...ESCAPE....was the technique to advanced? I think it was so simple, that most did not grasp its effectiveness...therefore, yes...it was far to advanced for the crowd at hand...
And last but not least. the whole "spy" thoery... could it be? most definatly...we have utilized spys thru out history...so, is a definate possibility...could Mr. Mitose have been one...Yep! And if that is the case...a bunch of freelance reporters and history buffs may never find ALL the evidence...stuff like that is protected...I mean, if the general public can tap into information like this to do a study...imagine where that would leave this country as far as the rest of the world goes....


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 18, 2004)

As much as I, too, would like to believe that one of the "founders," of kenpo had nothing to do with a murder, or with assorted swindles, I refuse to try and rationalize reality out of existence.

Mitose's criminal actions, arguably, are among the reasons American kenpo continues to be a bit of a mess.

Incidentally, kenpo is far from the only art with such problems. Aikido's just as bad, in its way.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 18, 2004)

[font=&quot]Let's get a little reality here!  Although there are miscarriages of justice, you are extremely naive (or paranoid) in thinking that mistakes at that level of offense occur frequently.  The standard of evidence is very high, and difficult for the state to prove.  Further, who are we to judge; we have not heard the evidence as it was presented at that time.  Those who think our system is that messed up ... well, it has its problems, but it is designed to err on the accused's side - HEAVILY.  Due process, especially in California, is highly stressed.  When they cannot convict some of the highest profile cases in the country, you know that the rights of the defendant are well protected ... usually to the extreme.  That has always been California's bane, and blessing.
 
  If you think James Mitose did not deserve, or was not guilty of the conviction, more power to you, but you better have a much better argument available than racial bias, or lack of investigative techniques.  The documentation of the evidence is convincing, and clear.  

  I agree with Robert.  This unfortunate blemish has created one of the greatest rifts in Kenpo, with interpretation of lineage.  It is also one that cannot be resolved in any fashion.  We all can hold our own beliefs and feelings regarding this, but that is unlikely to change the mind of someone who is not like-minded as you.
 
  I personally am sick of these threads debating Mitose's role in the formulation or descent of Kenpo.  While interesting historically initially, and I was appreciative of the contributions made by the solid researchers,  it has lost it's luster and seems almost inane and repetitive at times now.[/font]

 :sadsong::deadhorse
 (Playing a sad song for the horse that is dead and continues to be beaten)

 -Michael


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Sep 18, 2004)

I'm with you, completely, Mr. Billings.  I also continue to be amazed at how many people even care about the specifics of History. As I said in another thread, not one of the knpeo fathers taught what he was himself taught. Each made changes and adaptations. The most interesting changes were made, in my mind, by Mssr's Parker (& associated contributors along the journey) and Emperado (and associated contributors along the journey).

Regardless of where they started, each added to what they learned to create martial legacies. "American Karate", at least along the Left Coast, owes most of it's existence to these 2 gentleman's efforts and intuitions.  So, ultimately, who cares about Mitose, except as it relates to shoring up thier claims to legitimacy? The entire kenpo family tree is not pedigree...and still manages to contain many of the worlds amazing martial artists.

Dave


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## Karazenpo (Sep 19, 2004)

In my humble opinion, these last two posts should sum it up............but unfortunately it won't. Good job, gentlemen, you both put it quite well.


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## Doc (Sep 20, 2004)

Mekosho said:
			
		

> Okay, almost done...I want to address the whole "Mitose visited and ED Parker school once and this is what happened" thing....was the technique to advanced? I think it was so simple, that most did not grasp its effectiveness...therefore, yes...it was far to advanced for the crowd at hand....


I was one of the "crowd at hand" and the technique's significance did not escape me. What was more significant was that he suggested it was a "secret" technique, and he absolutely positively looked pathetic executing it. Having actually studied with real "masters" I knew what they looked like. My impression was he wasn't close to being a "master" of any art displayed that day. Even his "con" failed to impress anyone and he was sent packing. Everything about this man speaks for itself.


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## Mekosho (Sep 22, 2004)

Hmmmm, s'pose nobody read what I started this thread with...where I stated that I did not feel Mitose was innocent...I feel there was alot of evidence stacked against him...far to much to believe he was totally innocent, but it is you all who are naive if you feel that he was guilty of EVERYTHING that he has been charged with, in the courts or out of them...
As far as caring whether or not he was guilty or whatever as it is past history and we should move on...seems there are alot more people interested in this subject due to some of the post I have read on here...but you are right...it is the past and we cannot change it...and we will never find out the WHOLE truth...maybe just a little more here and there to make as ask more questions...
As to the individual that was there in the Parker dojo when Mitose visited...I just wish that I would have the opportunity to have met and talked to either of those gentleman as they are and always will be two of the most popular people in the history of Kempo or in martial arts period...you are very lucky...as far as the technique not looking very ummmm master looking...whatever that means...Hanshi decribes that true mastery should look like an accident...my point is, I don't care if I look totally idiotic doing a technique if it worked...and judging from what I hear, Mitose the fruad who never had any REAL training, had a Highly trained EPAK student throw a punch at him, but missed and got his toe punched...lol...I like it!!!! Makes you question previous training from both sides I would say...
Anyways, ya'll have a good one, I will be back on next week...
As far as the whole "secret" move...I agree...sounds a bit hillish, but then again...was a whole different time frame with a whole different mind set...what was exiting back then...is kinda boring nowadays...I would be willing to bet, at the time when he offered a "secret technique" just before you saw what it was, you were a bit exited, just by the word play...



Robb


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## The Kai (Sep 22, 2004)

Mitose's trail was in 73'?  Thats about 3 decades removed from the war, so resentments?  

Mitoses's secret technique, you have a Literal Eye Witness, a trained Martial Artist.  You ask a question, which this person whom was right there denies-Which you use as proof the techniques was "too advanced" and flew under the noses of every Kenpoist in the room!

Mitose was charged with murder the other relavations I don't believe he was charged with (the con's,etc)


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 22, 2004)

To me, the interesting point can be summarized with a paraphrase of a title of one of Michael Schwermer's books:

"Why do people believe weird things?"

If martial artists thought seriously about why it is that they get into these hallucinations about heros and history, we'd all be better off.


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## M.C. Busman (Sep 22, 2004)

Quote: "Why do people believe wierd things?"

Because they want to. (short answer)

Michael Shermer's book is worth reading, too.


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman


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## John Bishop (Sep 22, 2004)

I guess I need to clarify the reason for our in-depth discussion of James Mitose's criminal past.  
First off I, and I'm sure Joe Shuras, never meant to give the impressions that we thought anything negative about Kosho Ryu practitioners and their art.  
We have approached these discussions from purely a desire to learn more about the history of the Hawaiian Kenpo arts.  
When you examine historical statements, you have to also examine the credibility of the researcher or story teller. Do they have a agenda?  Do they have something to gain from telling their version of history?  This could be financially, or in recruiting followers, or by building up their reputations. 
You can't accept James Mitose's version of history without first examining his credibility, and what he had to gain by telling his version. 
When we take a critical look at James Mitose's life, we see someone who had a criminal record dating back to 1939.  We see someone who was involved in frauds and scams for at least 10 years of his life.  Someone who earned all of his money for at least 10 years thru lies, threats, and deceit.  Someone who lied about his clerical credentials, lied about his educational credentials, and lied about his business practices. 
So before you accept "his-story" from James Mitose, you have to in your own mind judge the credibility of the story teller.


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## Karazenpo (Sep 23, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I guess I need to clarify the reason for our in-depth discussion of James Mitose's criminal past.
> First off I, and I'm sure Joe Shuras, never meant to give the impressions that we thought anything negative about Kosho Ryu practitioners and their art.
> We have approached these discussions from purely a desire to learn more about the history of the Hawaiian Kenpo arts.
> When you examine historical statements, you have to also examine the credibility of the researcher or story teller. Do they have a agenda?  Do they have something to gain from telling their version of history?  This could be financially, or in recruiting followers, or by building up their reputations.
> ...



Very well put, John, very well put......


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## Brother John (Sep 23, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Mitose's criminal actions, arguably, are among the reasons American kenpo continues to be a bit of a mess.



Mr. Robertson-
I was just wondering what bearing you feel this has on American Kenpo today. How is it 'continuing' to foster a mess??
Thanks

Your Brother
John


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## GAB (Sep 23, 2004)

Hi All,

Many times I have explained the reason for this last, hurrah, regarding the late James Mitose and the slights against the "Juchnik Camp".

We wanted and still want the people who are involved in the research for the A&E Documentary. Talk to Hanshi, and the Tracy Camp, to find out what they have, also to talk to GGM Thomas Mitose regarding, his heritage, why he continues to use the lineage issue if it is not verifiable or even close to the truth.

To show that Mitose is not the only fraud and foreflusher in the ring of founders etc. 

When the issue for the A&E Documentary came up we wanted a fair shake, I even contacted Dr Sumners about it. He is basically the historian for the Tracys, he knew nothing about it.

Mike Brown the historian for the SKSKI is familiar with it now, but I am not sure when or how the truth to why he was questioned about the knowledge (he knows and therefore Hanshi knows) was put forth to him.

To many agendas and not enough questions to the parties I have mentioned.

So that is the reason for this go around.

It was started for that reason and it will go on until the time comes, when the agendas stop, and the truth comes out. Will that happen???

We will see.

Regards, Gary


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## M.C. Busman (Sep 23, 2004)

John Bishop, I agree with you again.

Skepticism & critical thinking are healthy.


Y'all Take Care,

M.C. Busman


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 23, 2004)

Well...uh...

1. Mitose's money-grubbing is still very much with American kenpo.

2. The attempt to erase him from kenpo--or similarly, to erase his crimes from kenpo--seems to me to dovetail very nicely with a lot of the general swaggering that, at times, is all too clear in kenpo.

3. The repetition of the "break-up," structure that's so often what happens.

4. I guess I just have this weird ancient Greek attitude...you know, your granddad offended the gods, and that's why you've ended up killing your father and marrying your mom...


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## Kalicombat (Sep 23, 2004)

For what its worth, Ill throw in my take on this.
First and foremost, I study SGM Edmund K. Parker's American Kenpo System. The history of kenpo before SGM Parker has no signifigance to me. I am concerned only about SGM Parkers teachings of the system that he created and passed along to his students. Mitose, Chow, humpty dumpty, and the man in the moon have no bearing on what we learn today. If Mitose was a criminal, so what. Prisons are full of criminals, and the line at the grocery store is as well.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary C.


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## Brother John (Sep 24, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Well...uh...
> 
> 1. Mitose's money-grubbing is still very much with American kenpo.
> 
> ...


Thank you
I think I see where you are coming from in this.
It would be good if we could break this Oedipal karma and make a clean break of it in Kenpo.

Your Brother
John


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## GAB (Sep 24, 2004)

Hi All,

Regarding somemore information that is being given to the general Kenpo population courtesy of Dr. Sumner. You can go to his web site and observe in his articles section, Numerous records of Mitose and family. www.sanjosekenpo.com

Thanks Dr. Sumner for the information, I am sure more will be coming also.

As I stated in prior posts, this is the weekend for infromation.

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo (Sep 24, 2004)

I think, respectfully, some miss the point. It really isn't the matter of what Mitose taught having any significance on what someone is studying in any of the Hawaiian-derived kenpo systems today but the dissussion on this topic is for the 'general history' section of the arts. All martial arts have histories, it's all part of the whole ball of wax. In my opinion, to be well rounded in your art, one should have a working knowledge of one's history especially if one is a teacher. Students are asking questions all the time and they're not stupid. A student knows when an instructor 'dances' around a question because they don't have the answer but don't want the student to know that. I say, learn your history, have the answers available for your students and then let them decide whether they think it is an important part of what they do today or not. It should be their decision to make. We, as instructors, should not be making that decision for them. Just my opinion........


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## GAB (Sep 24, 2004)

Hi All,
I don't believe anyone is trying to say the man was not a criminal and a conman.

I believe if you were to read the various threads, that is not the general reason for this conversation.. 
Sure you can pick out a statement, out of context, and try to prove your point but that will only make the person, trying to substantiate their postition more suspect.

As John Bishop said, in a very early post he (mitose) was still conning people up to the day he died, or at least was trying to. Or was he?

But, in our court system there are rules and laws. One of them is that, the case can be reviewed by a higher court, that is what these numerous persons were trying to get done when the man expired.

The man died of complications of diabitis, and we all know how responsible the type of diet that was in the prison system at that date and time, would have been so diffucult for a man in his condition, to be able to control the effects of diabitis even if he were on insulin.

Many complications and poor timing, but at least he was not dead, which is why Hanshi Bruce went and met the man and the rest is history. 

But in many post there is bickering about going to Japan, Birth certificates, and other items that have been mentioned, I have stated many times it will be coming out at the Gathering which is this weekend. 

Along with what Dr. Sumners is posting on his site at this time, it will help to establish some sense, or not, to whoever wants to say or misconstrue.

I believe the persons who want to find fault with Kosho Ryu, ought to spend a half hour on the mat with Hanshi, then get back to me, with how you feel. He has always said, if you don't believe me, come to my Dojo, and work out with me and I will explain it to you. 

He loves Kumite, and has a standing offer, just come over and see what we do.

Regards, Gary

PS. When Mitose died, none of Mitose's family wanted anything to do with his remains, Hanshi took care of that also. He truly respected the man for his knowledge, and  still does. G


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## The Kai (Sep 24, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> I don't believe anyone is trying to say the man was not a criminal and a conman.





> As John Bishop said, in a very early post he (mitose) was still conning people up to the day he died, or at least was trying to. Or was he?


You seem to be questioning your own statements



> The man died of complications of diabitis, and we all know how responsible the type of diet that was in the prison system at that date and time, would have been so diffucult for a man in his condition, to be able to control the effects of diabitis even if he were on insulin.


I think you are thinking of the prison system of the 1800's where the inmate are fed gruel.  Food and mediacations are provided for, (see cruel and unusal punishment laws and lawsuits)[/QUOTE] 





> I believe the persons who want to find fault with Kosho Ryu, ought to spend a half hour on the mat with Hanshi, then get back to me, with how you feel. He has always said, if you don't believe me, come to my Dojo, and work out with me and I will explain it to you.
> 
> He loves Kumite, and has a standing offer, just come over and see what we do.


If you are saying that might makes right then that is great,  hanshi is great martial artist, and i think we should talk, but maybe not throw down the gauntlet when you get frustrated
Todd


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## GAB (Sep 24, 2004)

Todd,

I am not frustrated, I am mearly stating a standing invitation. 

You don't have to participate, just come and observe. 
Kosho Ryu is not all about might and beating up on people. How you feel is not about your physcial injuries, it is about what you will see and discuss. When you leave the establishment, and walk away, with a good feeling or bad feeling or whatever your feeling.

I am not going to argue, just stating observations.

Regarding the quote, "or was he". I am relating to the time frame of his incarceration, when he was talking to people involved, he seemed to have conviced them enough to go out on a limb.

As far as food in the prison system and various locations, just recently, it has changed for diabetes patients. People are still very naive about what diabetics can eat and the amounts. You would be very surprised. If you check it out. 
Actually, Gruel would not be to bad, if you did not use milk,or add extra sugar.

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Sep 24, 2004)

Actuaaly I've been to Kosho things, so it's cool.


Youare making observations in a rather odd way, giving the evidence, testiminy and eye witness reports and then you make a observation that runs 180 degrees from where everything points you! 
if diabeties is hard to treat is that the patients or the jails fault?? is there a big conspiracy to keep someone in jail<why>.  I did'nt want you to get defensive, cryptic or challenging.  I just wanted to here some reason for your ideas, beyond the standard "or was It"
Todd


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## GAB (Sep 24, 2004)

Todd,

Ok.

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Sep 24, 2004)

also to talk to GGM Thomas Mitose regarding, his heritage, why he continues to use the lineage issue if it is not verifiable or even close to the truth.


Thomas Mitose is the son correct??  
So he is of the bloodline??
He did meet his father correct??  
The same as others who make claims correct??

If Kosho is a process and a study, could it not be that the process and the study of the concepts, principles could result in a practioner not moving like a SKSKI person, but something else?  So it would not be correct Kosho unless it looks like your KOsho?

To show that Mitose is not the only fraud and foreflusher in the ring of founders etc. 

Probably not.
Todd


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## Karazenpo (Sep 24, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> I don't believe anyone is trying to say the man was not a criminal and a conman.
> 
> I believe if you were to read the various threads, that is not the general reason for this conversation..
> ...



Gary, you have mentioned Dr. Ted Sumners on the San Jose Kenpo website. I have recently joined their discussion forum. You referenced what Dr. Sumner has posted on his site. Well, I just read a letter he posted from Ed Parker in 1984. To paraphrase, it stated Hanshi's Kosho was not what Mitose taught but was of Connors/Tracy Kenpo and that Mr. Parker stated he spent more time with Mitose than Hanshi, etc. Again, I paraphrased but anyone reading this can just go to the San Jose site and read it verbatim. As far as what Todd stated about, I think he's right, I mean for that matter, someone could say if you want to prove your Kosho get in the ring with Tyson, that would be just as off base in making the point. Point being, as John Bishop has stated, we are not challenging the effectiveness of Kosho in any way, shape or form. For sake of argument let's say you're Kosho is what Ed Parker stated it was in that letter on Dr. Sumner's website, Connors/Tracy Kenpo, another very legitimate offshoot of the original Hawaiian-derived Kenpo that we all came from. Nothing wrong with that, all these Hawaiian kenpo related arts are effective in the right hands.


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## John Bishop (Sep 24, 2004)

Actually, Dr. Sumner's posting of the "Mitose" birth doc's just brings about more questions about this man.  
You have 3 documents for the same person "James Mitose".  
Two documents lists his birth date as:12-30-1916.  
A third document lists it as: 12-28-1916.  
One document lists his mother as: Kiyoka Komatsu.  
Another document lists her as: Kiyoka Yoshida. 

So, one has to wonder how many identities did Mitose have?


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## Karazenpo (Sep 24, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Actually, Dr. Sumner's posting of the "Mitose" birth doc's just brings about more questions about this man.
> You have 3 documents for the same person "James Mitose".
> Two documents lists his birth date as:12-30-1916.
> A third document lists it as: 12-28-1916.
> ...



Good point, John.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Sep 24, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> I believe the persons who want to find fault with Kosho Ryu, ought to spend a half hour on the mat with Hanshi, then get back to me, with how you feel. He has always said, if you don't believe me, come to my Dojo, and work out with me and I will explain it to you.
> 
> He loves Kumite, and has a standing offer, just come over and see what we do.
> 
> Regards, Gary


If my daddy can beat up your daddy, does that mean he always tells the truth, and is automatically correct on all issues?  Logical Phallacy (sp error intended): Argumentum ad Bacculum (sp? legit)..."Argument with a stick".  In other words, "I'm right, because I'm bigger than you are and will beat you up if you don't agree". Doesn't prove any truths or make evidence more compelling. Generally used when logic no longer applies.

I'm sure "Hanshi" is quite skilled...like a lot of kenpo/kempo bada$$es out there. That does not make his assertions correct.

D.


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## GAB (Sep 24, 2004)

Hi Dr. Dave,

You are very correct in your observations and that is exactly my point, regarding other Martial Artists as well. I am glad you brought that up, well said.

I have probably had way to many posts on this subject, and if you read them, Dr. Dave you will find that I very seldom reference your statements as to who can beat up who. I did not say that in any of the quotes. Your statement's, not mine.

That is a particular part of the discussion that will always be there, how one say's something, and how one takes it out of context. It has happened many times on this particular topic. 

Joe, Regarding the letter from Parker it would be interesting to know what Bill wrote originally. That is not a correct statement about Hanshi, he was with Tracy, but he changed and trained and formed the Kosho Ryu arts after in depth investigation into the art, that many people explained to him on what Mitose taught and some he added to pay respect to Robert Trias. 

At the time of the letter it could have been an observation, but not in the past nineteen years, he has been dedicated to the preservation of Mitose.

Bill Hensel was with Hanshi Bruce Juchnik for a few years, prior to that he was Tracy/Conners, they split on bad terms. Bill went back to the Tracy school of thought, so I am not sure what the agenda for that letter is. 

Except for the time frame and Bills question to Parker, it was at the time when he was in the Kosho Ryu organization. Kosho Ryu was just forming (after death of J. Mitose) and had a few kinks, then it went the way it is now. 

Remember, Thomas and Bruce were in the same org. and then they went their seperate ways, not unlike many other Kenpo factions. 

Also on the subject of Mitose and Parker and Chow. One of the persons was Hawaiian/American, one was Chinese and one was Japanese. 
Regarding religions, one was whatever he felt like at the time, two were Mormon. 
We went to war with the Japanese, and at the time, LDS (Mormon) was considered more of a cult then a religion. Interrpret that anyway you want.

John, I noticed the various type o's and different dates also, I did not mention them for there are many reasons for that occuring. But one type o does not mean forgery or any other thing that has been implied.

I just hope this thread will get the attention of others, who will then look at the picture and form their opinions. There are a lot of people who have agendas, and there are that don't. We won't change one person who has formed his opinion, but we will cause others to look at the whole picture.
(Mitose, Chow, Parker, Tracy, Mitose, Juchnik, Tracy, Mitose.) 


Todd, Regarding GGM Thomas Mitose, you are missing my whole point, so I will say, Yes and OK, and he is not the first son of James. 

Choki Motobu was not the first son of his lineage and none of the family art was passed to him, only the oldest, and usually that is the way.

If it is handed down then the person who it was handed down to will usually have some information on the lineage. Choki had to learn it from his brother , but in the meantime he developed his own.

People can back peddle all they want, say I didn't mean disrespect etc. etc.

These threads have been viewed by thousands, will be on the internet for along time, that is good. 

Waiting on the A&E "no agenda" Documentary.

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Sep 25, 2004)

Hi All,

I have just read some interesting information on Dr. Sumner's board regarding more information coming up, the information is being presented in a manner of releasing it, in such a way as to read and digest, then more information and put it together.

I think the picture of Mitose is being presented, like as Tracy and his historian were following the crumbs. Or similar to putting all the pieces into a puzzle only going out on a treasure hunt and finding the pieces then assembling the puzzle.

We are going to be on easter egg hunt and inside of many eggs are the questions and the answers.

Have any of you played Monk Quest? It is a game of question and answers, it is for sale on the SKSKI website. Is quite informative and in it you can find a lot of information about the quest of the Monk.

I will tell you this, riddle, and koan, are some of the things that are in this game. Al Tracy is in to that type of giving of information. Why? Because that is how he had to find it, and also how Hanshi had to find it.

We of the Western mind set are not to keen on this type of "Gamesmanship" if you will. But the people and the quest for knowledge regarding the eastern mind set are different, that is for sure. 

This is one of the reasons Western Cultures, still to this date can not understand the Eastern Cultures. IMO.

Similar to the same problem we of the Christian faith cannot understand the 
faith of the Islam people. To put it another way is, Man is from Mars and Women are from Venus.

Last but not least American Kenpo or Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo.

I believe the thought with the information from Dr. Ted is, buckle up sit back, and enjoy the scenery, the information will come out, but you have got to think and study, each and every piece of the puzzle.

Regards, Gary 
PS. This is one of the reasons Hanshi say's, "stop and think", conception or to conceive or to conceptualize is the name of the tune in Kosho.


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## The Kai (Sep 27, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> ,
> 
> Todd, Regarding GGM Thomas Mitose, you are missing my whole point, so I will say, Yes and OK, and he is not the first son of James.
> 
> ...


GGM Mitose studied with his father so the lineage would be there, first son or not he is the son that chose his dad's art!
So what is it you are thinking is missing??
Todd


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## kelly keltner (Sep 28, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Actually, Dr. Sumner's posting of the "Mitose" birth doc's just brings about more questions about this man.
> You have 3 documents for the same person "James Mitose".
> Two documents lists his birth date as:12-30-1916.
> A third document lists it as: 12-28-1916.
> ...


 
The answer to the name issue is in the koseki, or the family record, it reveals adoptions in and out of both famillies. Mekugi Knows more about the specifics of how it works than I do. 
The discrepancy in dates I cannot explain.

kelly


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## kelly keltner (Sep 28, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Mitose's trail was in 73'?  Thats about 3 decades removed from the war, so resentments?
> 
> Mitoses's secret technique, you have a Literal Eye Witness, a trained Martial Artist.  You ask a question, which this person whom was right there denies-Which you use as proof the techniques was "too advanced" and flew under the noses of every Kenpoist in the room!
> 
> Mitose was charged with murder the other relavations I don't believe he was charged with (the con's,etc)


 May I remind you this is the same eyewitness who says he saw Bruce Juchnik suck at doing kata in a time frame which is at best improbable from his own description of events, at a place Mr. Juchnik never said he was. With no one who has come foward to corroborate his story. Todd you and I both know better about any claims about Bruce's ability. Even in the seventies he was known as a good Kenpo man before he met Mitose. So I take what Doc says with a grain of salt. He has a right to his opinion and recollection of events.  

kelly


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## Doc (Sep 29, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> May I remind you this is the same eyewitness who says he saw Bruce Juchnik suck at doing kata in a time frame which is at best improbable from his own description of events, at a place Mr. Juchnik never said he was.


Yep! That's what he said all right.


> With no one who has come foward to corroborate his story.


You know I hate to say it but that's just pure dumb. Anybody could come on the net and say, "I was there and Doc's right" if that's all it takes to stop the whining and yapping.


> Todd you and I both know better about any claims about Bruce's ability. Even in the seventies he was known as a good Kenpo man before he met Mitose.


Can you get someone who was there to come forth and corroborate that? 


> So I take what Doc says with a grain of salt. He has a right to his opinion and recollection of events.


See what I mean? I need corroboration, a vaccination, and a note from my teacher, but ole Bruce's word is gospel. Well he was there, and he did suck that day -  I don't mean that in a bad way - maybe he was just having a bad day. As far as the "grain of salt," if you take everything Bruce says as the "truth" just because he says it, you'll need more than salt to make those stories taste good. But you too are entitled to your opinion, even though you weren't there and really don't know whether Bruce was or not. At least I'm not relying on what someone told me. Incense anyone? YSDAB*


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## The Kai (Sep 29, 2004)

Of course i can not corraborate the event itself.  I will speak up for the ability of Hanshi Juchnik.  I don't know what happened at the event Doc was at, maybe Juchni was performing a new kata, or not feeling well, maybe, maybe.  I don't know what happened but I can say hanshi is one hell of a Martial Artist!  No disresspect to Doc.  One tournament does not prove or disprove ability.

Todd


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## Kosho-Monk (Sep 29, 2004)

OK. Let me get this straight. Hanshi sucked in the 70's. So what? That doesn't mean anything to me. I sucked in the 70's too. But I will say that I have seen footage of Hanshi from the late 70's early 80's and he looked pretty good back then. He certainly didn't move then like he does now. He's a student first, and as such, he is constantly improving. 

The worse thing that happens to many teachers is that they stop learning. So many teachers think they know it all and become content with themselves. Ego and pride kick in and they not only stop progressing, they actually start getting worse.

I trained with Hanshi Juchnik (and many other great masters) over the weekend at the Gathering. It was an event that truly humbles the best practitioners. The one thing that Hanshi Juchnik continues to speak on is unity between all the martial groups. He is not only dedicated to the art of Kosho, but to all martial arts.

Anyone who does not attend these events and see for themselves all the great work that Bruce Juchnik has done for the entire martial arts community needs to close their mouths and keep their fingers off the keyboards. You do not know the truth about this man.

Hanshi continually speaks out to the students and reminds them to respect all masters of all martial systems. And some of these same masters that Hanshi speaks out for are posting disrespectful statements about him on sites like this one. 

So all of you who continue to bad-mouth my teacher, Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, please continue if you wish. You will not hear Hanshi Juchnik bad mouth any of you. He is above that.

I have taken the time to know Bruce Juchnik and to admire all of the great work he has done. There is no doubt within my heart and soul that he is on the true path of martial enlightement.

I bow humbly to my teacher with gratitude for having the endurance to put up with so much negativity.  


-John Evans


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## Karazenpo (Sep 29, 2004)

Hi John, long time no hear from! Glad to see you're still heavily involved in the arts. Is Mike Connors still running the school. I appreciate your loyalty to your instructor, there's not too much of that around anymore. As you know, I always show proper respect (whenever humanly possible that is,lol) to my seniors and peers and, as you are well aware of, only interested in the historical accuracies of the Mitose saga, not the criminal part, just his link to the arts. We were told that much would be revealed at the 'Gathering', since you were there, do you know anything? Are you at liberty to tell us? If not, I understand and I'll respect that. For those who don't know John, I was honored to be a guest instructor at his school in New Hampshire a few years back. He is a man of honor and integrity not to mention a helluva kempo man and I would be very interested into hearing his account of the 'Gathering'. "Joe"


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## GAB (Sep 29, 2004)

Hi John,

I want to thank you for the update, Kell and I figured we would hear this evening, so your up date is nice to read.

I might add that is what I have observed in my last 16 years of knowing Hanshi.

Yes, he is a student first and foremost he says that all the time.

Hanshi told be to tell Doc, "Doc, I don't know you, but you are right, I do suck, by the standards I have put on myself when compared to the many masters I have known personally, but I am trying to improve every day. I am a student of the martial arts always.

Thanks again, Regards, Gary


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## Kosho-Monk (Sep 29, 2004)

Prof. Shuras,

Nice to hear from you as always.  My students still talk about you coming up and giving a seminar on weapons defense.  We all had a great time that day.

Mike is still running a program (not located in my old school) in Peterborough.  Last I knew it was still a very small operation, but he does have a few loyal students.

I think that there are lots of student/teachers out there that have no clue how important it is to show the seniors of martial arts, all arts, proper respect.  I trained with Kempo, Kenpo, Kajunkenbo, Tai Chi, Jujitsu, Arnis, and many, many other people over the weekend.  There wasn't a single person who cared that we were all wearing a different patch on our gi.  No one brought up the politics of the arts either.  At least not in my presence.  We simply got together and trained as one big martial family.

I appreciate the kind words you spoke of me.  I believe in training hard and discovering the truth (whatever that might be) for one's self.  I also believe in giving credit where credit is due.  As you have said many times James Mitose is the reason we in America are fortunate to study the Kempo arts.  No one in Hanshi's group condones any criminal activities that Mitose did.  However, all of us hold James Mitose as our Great Grandmaster of the Kosho Shorei Ryu.  

Hanshi stated on a recent instructional video that James Mitose was either a saint or the devil.  And he isn't totally sure which.

I know many of us wish to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  However, that will never happen.  What we will find is some truth, some rumor and some lies.  Then we will piece together our best guess based on all the information we have.


Take care,
John



To all,

There is an old buddhist story about a man who gets shot with an arrow.  And instead of getting the medical attention he needs he goes off to find out about the person who shot him.  Well, he dies.  He never finds out the truth about the man who shot him and he never becomes enlightened.  He just dies.  

This is what I feel is happening to many people in the Kempo/Kenpo circles.  They keep looking for James Mitose and somewhat forget about that fact that James Mitose is not Kempo.  He was simply a carrier of the Kempo arts.

Kempo is here with us today.  It is a wonderful study.  So while we are still searching for the answers to the late James Mitose, let us not forget about the many teachers who are alive today and have much to teach us.


-John Evans


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## Doc (Sep 29, 2004)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Prof. Shuras,
> I think that there are lots of student/teachers out there that have no clue how important it is to show the seniors of martial arts, all arts, proper respect.  I trained with Kempo, Kenpo, Kajunkenbo, Tai Chi, Jujitsu, Arnis, and many, many other people over the weekend.  There wasn't a single person who cared that we were all wearing a different patch on our gi.  No one brought up the politics of the arts either.  At least not in my presence.  We simply got together and trained as one big martial family.


OK you were there and everyone had a good time. That's really great. Now, what was the "new" secret information that was supposed to rock the kenpo world that Bruce was supposed to present? What ever it was it couldn't have been to startling because no one has mentioned it yet. Do you happen to know what it was? Not that you're responsible or anything. I just ask because you were actuality there.


> No one in Hanshi's group condones any criminal activities that Mitose did.  However, all of us hold James Mitose as our Great Grandmaster of the Kosho Shorei Ryu.
> Hanshi stated on a recent instructional video that James Mitose was either a saint or the devil.  And he isn't totally sure which.


Seems like Bruce is confused. What part of Mitose's criminal record did he not understand? It would be considerably difficult in my opinion to pull any "angel" like qualities out of Mitose's history. But that's just me.


> I know many of us wish to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  However, that will never happen.  What we will find is some truth, some rumor and some lies.  Then we will piece together our best guess based on all the information we have.


Believe it or not, some have already found their truth and it may be different from others truth. My personal truth doesn't include Mitose or Judnick so it doesn't matter. I also allow that I am not in their truth but my life and credibility remain unchanged. 


> There is an old buddhist story about a man who gets shot with an arrow.  And instead of getting the medical attention he needs he goes off to find out about the person who shot him.  Well, he dies.  He never finds out the truth about the man who shot him and he never becomes enlightened.  He just dies.
> 
> This is what I feel is happening to many people in the Kempo/Kenpo circles.  They keep looking for James Mitose and somewhat forget about that fact that James Mitose is not Kempo.  He was simply a carrier of the Kempo arts.


On this we agree. Mitose was A carrier of the TERM kenpo, and not the only one. What he did, taught, said, etc has no PHYSICAL OR INTELLECTUAL relationship to the art many study today. He does have a place in martial arts history for sure, but that's all. I take issue with the idea that if Mitose were hit by a truck, we would not be studying today.

In my opinion if you are looking for a more broad and significant influence on the art of Kenpo in lineage, you should look to Sijo Emperado. Chow planted the seed of practicality and Sijo ran with it and assembled a panel of experts to address realistic applications and to share information on a formal basis, and created the first true practical eclectic system of the arts.  This could arguably be considered the first true expression of a system of Asian Martial Arts in America. He then went on to in turn support and promot Ed Parker. These men studied and were innovators in their own right, and if Mitose were never born, they would have still been successful martial arts masters. The only thing that MIGHT have changed - is the name of what they called their arts.


> Kempo is here with us today.  It is a wonderful study.  So while we are still searching for the answers to the late James Mitose, ...


Some find that important to bolster their own credibility. My creds come from the space above my shoes, not from my teacher even though his name was Ed Parker. Here's a flash. The majority of most teachers black belts aren't that good, and that includes Ed Parker.


> ... let us not forget about the many teachers who are alive today and have much to teach us.


On that we can definitely agree sir.


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## Karazenpo (Sep 29, 2004)

To Kosho Monk: John, you know what I think of you and we've had many personal heated debates on this Mitose thing but I have to be honest with you, Doc has made some great points and I agree with them all. however, I do understand that you are loyal and if you feel it is not your place to tell us what went on and what 'secrets' were revealed, well, like I said, I respect that, HOWEVER, if the fact is, what Doc implies (and Doc I know I'm taking the liberty of stating what I think you feel so if I'm wrong I apologize) that it was all a sham and a lot of B.S. that was fed to us then all I have to say is: "What the F..k!" Fair enough?


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## Ceicei (Sep 29, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Here's a flash. The majority of most teachers black belts aren't that good, and that includes Ed Parker.


Sir,
What is your definition of "good"? How do you recognize what is and what isn't?

:asian: Respectfully,

- Ceicei


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## Doc (Sep 30, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> To Kosho Monk: John, you know what I think of you and we've had many personal heated debates on this Mitose thing but I have to be honest with you, Doc has made some great points and I agree with them all. however, I do understand that you are loyal and if you feel it is not your place to tell us what went on and what 'secrets' were revealed, well, like I said, I respect that, HOWEVER, if the fact is, what Doc implies (and Doc I know I'm taking the liberty of stating what I think you feel so if I'm wrong I apologize) that it was all a sham and a lot of B.S. that was fed to us then all I have to say is: "What the F..k!" Fair enough?


Hey Joe, you know you can speak for me anytime. They've been pulling our collective chains like always trying to lure us to some "gathering" (at a discount) to tell us nothing new. Not that it matters.


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## Doc (Sep 30, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Sir,
> What is your definition of "good"? How do you recognize what is and what isn't?
> 
> :asian: Respectfully,
> ...


The term is subjective based on the knowledge and standards of the person making the statement. Its like porno. I may not exactly be able to describe it but I know crap when I see it. What you might call good I'd pick apart, but the best standard is - does it really work?


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## Kosho-Monk (Sep 30, 2004)

Doc,

Call Hanshi Juchnik if you have some questions about his organization or the things that happen within it.  It is not my place to speak for him.

It is my belief that Mitose passed along knowledge to Juchnik that he is passing along to me.  I am perfectly happy with that being my truth.  I have trained with many masters over the years of several different styles.  And I can honestly say, in my opinion, that not one of these masters has the level of understanding that Bruce Juchnik has when it comes to martial movement.

I understand that many of us will disagree on this point.  But that doesn't matter to me.  I have found a great teacher and I intend to stay with him.


-John Evans



Ps. Doc, where is your school located?  It would be nice to be able to visit you at some point in the future.


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## Karazenpo (Sep 30, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Hey Joe, you know you can speak for me anytime. They've been pulling our collective chains like always trying to lure us to some "gathering" (at a discount) to tell us nothing new. Not that it matters.



Thanks, Doc. You're the man!


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## GAB (Sep 30, 2004)

Hi All, 

This is to let you know that I did not say, that Hanshi was going to give up all the secrets, at the gathering, so you would go to the gathering.

That is pretty sad that you are falling into Doc's trap, Joe. Divide and conquer, is this the new one now?

You are real close to getting some facts and documentation. Ted has been given permission by Al Tracy, he gives info and docs and you just go on about it, like it is forged and untruths.

If you go to Al Tracy's site, he now has some new information also.

Are we on a time line to see who writes the first book ? Lets see will it be Sijo, Mike, M. C. , John, Joe, or Tom, Dick, and Harry?

I think I will put all the above names in a hat and pull out the one that will be first, makes about as much sense as what is going on now.

Take care,
Regards, Gary


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## Kosho-Monk (Sep 30, 2004)

> To Kosho Monk: John, you know what I think of you and we've had many personal heated debates on this Mitose thing but I have to be honest with you, Doc has made some great points and I agree with them all. however, I do understand that you are loyal and if you feel it is not your place to tell us what went on and what 'secrets' were revealed, well, like I said, I respect that, HOWEVER, if the fact is, what Doc implies (and Doc I know I'm taking the liberty of stating what I think you feel so if I'm wrong I apologize) that it was all a sham and a lot of B.S. that was fed to us then all I have to say is: "What the F..k!" Fair enough?


Joe,

I have always appreciated our debates and you as a person.  I don't agree with all of what Doc said.  And I don't really think his points are all that great.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

What came out openly at the Gathering is most likely of no interest to most of you.  There are some things that I have been told that certainly shed light on some things.  It is not for me to bring this out as I am not the one with the documentation, etc. to prove anything I state.

With that said, I have to wonder what kind of motivation Hanshi has to rush to get things out to anyone anyway.  He is extrememly secure with himself and his abilities.  At least it seems that way to me.  His reputation is built through his own work and not resting on the outcome James Mitose's past.

It's too bad that more people, who like to debate Mitose & Kosho, don't attend these events.  I'm not speaking for Hanshi here, but I'd bet he would not charge a fee to have someone like Doc or yourself attend the Gathering.  Perhaps next spring you'll be able to attend the Kosho Camp in Lake George, NY.  Then you could sit down with Hanshi Juchnik and ask some straight questions. 

I think that most everyone who attended the Gathering this year were extremely happy with the turnout and outcome of the event.  I know I was.  I was very happy to train with teachers like Grandmaster George Elmer, an Ed Parker black belt.  Very friendly and very skillful.  I don't know what his impression of Bruce Juchnik was before the event, but I saw them walking around like two old buddies several times.

So I'll let Hanshi speak out when he's ready.  Everyone will just have to contact him directly if you wish to know more.  I'm going back to the dojo to train so more!

Take care,

John


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## Karazenpo (Sep 30, 2004)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Joe,
> 
> I have always appreciated our debates and you as a person.  I don't agree with all of what Doc said.  And I don't really think his points are all that great.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this.
> 
> ...



C'ome on Gary, falling into Doc's trap? Okay, let me be blunt. Let's cut to the chase, no let's cut the sh.t and all this secret squirrel crap. You put us on hold until after the "Gathering" and so far all we got is a lot B.S., rhetoric and spin. Very simple questions: Did Mitose train in Japan? Is Mitose the 21st decendant of his family art of Kosho? and what about Mitose's Okinawan link to Kenpo? Now, is that so hard? Any other system in the world today can answer simple questions like this in regards to their history and lineage! If no one in Kosho can answer these SIMPLE questions let's just close out this topic and move in. This is getting ridiculous. You would think we are asking for the formular for the Neutron bomb!!!


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## Doc (Sep 30, 2004)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Doc,
> Call Hanshi Juchnik if you have some questions about his organization or the things that happen within it.  It is not my place to speak for him.
> 
> It is my belief that Mitose passed along knowledge to Juchnik that he is passing along to me.  I am perfectly happy with that being my truth.  I have trained with many masters over the years of several different styles.  And I can honestly say, in my opinion, that not one of these masters has the level of understanding that Bruce Juchnik has when it comes to martial movement.
> ...


Please don't misunderstand me Mr. Evans. I have no idea of what Bruce does or doesn't do. Clearly there are those like yourself that are happy and satisfied with him and his organization, and I really have no problem with that. I think it's great. More power to you guys, and I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm or spoil your experiences. If you believe that Mitose had significant knowledge and passed it along to Bruce through prison visitations, I'm ok with that. 

 Just stop trying to convince me (and others) because history, logic, common sense, and my own knowledge and experiences tell me its a rather large and obvious crock of a "con"coction that smells no matter how well it is cooked and seasoned over time.

 My problem is the glorification of a person who was, by all accounts, a really despicable human being who lied, cheated, coned, and preyed upon the weak and elderly. Not exactly the image I have of a pillar in the martial Arts community, and it is totally unnecessary to attempt to bathe him the light of martial arts legitimacy.

 My problem is the "games" that Bruce, Al Tracy and others have been playing over the years, and have ramped up since the passing of Ed Parker Sr. The constant bombardment with "new & improved" information to convince people that Mitose's self created history and claims of a centuries old lineage handed to him are true. 

 The constant "we've found the proof" exclamations that are like "pop up" ads every time you enter into one of these discussions, "and if you come to this meeting or call this guy, or go to his site, you'll see how correct we are." And, like always, It fades away, people start talking about something else, and the old "bait and switch" is in full effect until the next time. You know if this "information" really existed, it wouldn't take very much to convince one of the major martial arts publication to do a story on this revelation on Mitose.

 Debating the history and legitimacy of Mitose to the extent that prevails among those who claim his lineage is unnecessary. If you feel Bruce is a legitimate martial artist, than the rest doesn't matter. History good or bad doesn't teach you or correct your technique. If you feel Mitose is significant in your martial arts history that's fine and doesn't bother me. I don't need to call the Mahatma so I can be "convinced" because I was there.

 I have many students who never met my teacher, and although they hear the things I have to say about him as a man and as a person, it is not his skill knowledge or character that they rely on, and my teacher or even his teacher is really irrelevant to them. I walk on the floor with no history and Ed Parker Sr. has not taught one of my classes since his passing. They watch me perform, teach, lecture, and correct what they do and look into my eyes and believe in me. They look at the teachers I have taught and produced and are either impressed or not. We do not have a "history class" beyond Ed Parker Sr. and the only reason we go back that far is because he lives within me and my students who were with me when he was alive. 

 I take issue with the incessant and anal need to convert and convince everyone outside of the concocted Mitose lineage. It's being bombarded with this cult-like behavior and the incessant need to convince the rest of the world that the emperor really does have on clothes, while we stare at his naked derrière. The legitimacy of what Bruce or others do or do not do is not served by this rabid compulsion to make "believers" out of the rest of us. I think most are like me. We don't care what you claim, so please stop trying to convince us. In addition to this, somehow whenever the promotion of Mitose's greatness is raised, it always leads somehow to others like Ed Parker Sr. being not "as legitimate" because of Mitose detractors, and Parker's deviation from the "true lineage." Chow wasn't the man, But Mitose was. Parker never learned the true system, but the Tracy's did, etc. Please.

 Why is it you guys never talk techniques, or the execution of basics, or something else? Why is history the only topic that prevails in these discussions. I suspect whatever it is you do will work or not, not because of Mitose but because you have either learned something worthwhile - or not. But the Mitose issue was dead for me before he was dead himself. Anyone who believes they need to wrap themselves in his lineage for legitimacy has a problem. My advice is just be legit yourself, and let history take care of itself.

 I'm not knocking you Mr. Evans, but Bruce needs to just click his heels 3 times and let the rest of us be "stupid" in Oz. You see if he really wanted us to know the "truth," he could easily communicate himself in many ways, and stop withholding the "truth" for release at some special time and place that just happens to charge a fee to be there. The news was delivered last weekend and now it's Thursday. Do you know where your shihan is?

 No offense but, I don't hate the players, I hate the games.


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## Karazenpo (Sep 30, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Please don't misunderstand me Mr. Evans. I have no idea of what Bruce does or doesn't do. Clearly there are those like yourself that are happy and satisfied with him and his organization, and I really have no problem with that. I think it's great. More power to you guys, and I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm or spoil your experiences. If you believe that Mitose had significant knowledge and passed it along to Bruce through prison visitations, I'm ok with that.
> 
> Just stop trying to convince me (and others) because history, logic, common sense, and my own knowledge and experiences tell me its a rather large and obvious crock of a "con"coction that smells no matter how well it is cooked and seasoned over time.
> 
> ...



Doc says: 
 No offense but, I don't hate the players, I hate the games.

John and others, Sorry, but this last statement by Doc says it all. Sensei Evans, John, I hope we are still friends after this but how can anyone disagree with Doc's last post? Now, before you say that I fell into Doc's trap as Gary did ( Gary, I still love you, LOL) and agree with everything he says, please let me say this: Doc and I agree with almost all of our posts but not everything. We still have a difference of opinion on lineage in the martial arts and specifically American Kenpo lineage and Ed Parker for despite of the inconsistincies of Mitose's background I still feel he holds an integral part of the Parker lineage. Doc disagrees, my point being I respect that as Doc differs with me but respects my opinion. So we're not patronizing each other but we agree to disagree. No one is falling into anyone's trap. It is our opiinion and we stand by it, right Doc?


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## GAB (Sep 30, 2004)

Joe,
I have said, ask the 22nd descendent numerous times, you just fail to grasp the meaning. As far as docs and other information it will be given just like Ted gave his and then it will be claimed to be forged. 

Give me a break Joe, go play good cop, bad cop with some one who is dump enough to be fooled.

Regrets, Gary


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## GAB (Sep 30, 2004)

Hi Doc, 
As far as cult like behavior the only thing I have heard of in the past 50 years as being a cult was the LDS church, and the Kenpo that came out of that era.

Look in some of the older Encyclopedias, and then of course there is always Will Tracy's memories, you know the guy who had Ed Parkers crest copywrited and then Ed had to go look for something else, remember that, oh senior one.

There were a lot of funny things happening in that part of the kenpo ring, would you like to discuss them also?

Ed Parker saw that Robert Trias was making money putting on get togethers,
so he did it, was that wrong no thats business, so when Ed came over to Robert Trias and wanted to join the organization, Robert told him he would have to come in under Bruce, well we all know how well that went over. Does that stir any memories sir?

Ed Parker died in 1990 the Mitose cult (your words Doc) Had been going on for 13 years before Ed Passed, that is a lot of water under abridge, can you do some better information then after he died ...Please....

You know Doc if you would really look at the picture, it was Parkers own Black belts that put the boots to him, just like he did to them. Over the years it was a constant battle with one or the other. 

I see that happening in the Kai, happens in all the organizations as far as I have observed, Kenpo, Kaji, Aikido, JKD, FMA, on and on. Lets get some new news or let if go. Your are just blowing smoke, and you and I both know it.

 Regards, Gary


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## kelly keltner (Sep 30, 2004)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> OK. Let me get this straight. Hanshi sucked in the 70's. So what? That doesn't mean anything to me. I sucked in the 70's too. But I will say that I have seen footage of Hanshi from the late 70's early 80's and he looked pretty good back then. He certainly didn't move then like he does now. He's a student first, and as such, he is constantly improving.
> 
> The worse thing that happens to many teachers is that they stop learning. So many teachers think they know it all and become content with themselves. Ego and pride kick in and they not only stop progressing, they actually start getting worse.
> 
> ...


 Yeah John Doc said hanshi sucked in the seventies .If you read his response to me carefully at one point he asked for corroboration of hanshi being a good kenpoman before he met Mitose.  My anwer to that is that Doc needs to talk to his Rick Alemeny and Eugene Sedeno. They are supposed to be Doc's friends and they know Bruce as well.  

Sorry I missed the gathering this year. I hear from Hanshi it was very good.


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## Doc (Oct 1, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Yeah John Doc said hanshi sucked in the seventies .If you read his response to me carefully at one point he asked for corroboration of hanshi being a good kenpoman before he met Mitose.  My anwer to that is that Doc needs to talk to his Rick Alemeny and Eugene Sedeno. They are supposed to be Doc's friends and they know Bruce as well.
> 
> Sorry I missed the gathering this year. I hear from Hanshi it was very good.


Look Gary the question was rhetorical. What makes you think I care what Bruce looked like in the seventies? That question too, was rhetorical.


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## Doc (Oct 1, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Doc says:
> No offense but, I don't hate the players, I hate the games.
> 
> John and others, Sorry, but this last statement by Doc says it all. Sensei Evans, John, I hope we are still friends after this but how can anyone disagree with Doc's last post? Now, before you say that I fell into Doc's trap as Gary did ( Gary, I still love you, LOL) and agree with everything he says, please let me say this: Doc and I agree with almost all of our posts but not everything. We still have a difference of opinion on lineage in the martial arts and specifically American Kenpo lineage and Ed Parker for despite of the inconsistincies of Mitose's background I still feel he holds an integral part of the Parker lineage. Doc disagrees, my point being I respect that as Doc differs with me but respects my opinion. So we're not patronizing each other but we agree to disagree. No one is falling into anyone's trap. It is our opiinion and we stand by it, right Doc?


Roger that! 11 Robert Clear 10-8


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## Kosho-Monk (Oct 1, 2004)

> Just stop trying to convince me (and others) because history, logic, common sense, and my own knowledge and experiences tell me its a rather large and obvious crock of a "con"coction that smells no matter how well it is cooked and seasoned over time.


Doc,

I am not concerned with convincing anyone about anything.  We both hold onto our own truths.  I still believe we should focus our energy into learning from the masters of today.

My teacher, Bruce Juchnik, is a great practitioner - one of the best in my opinion.  His knowledge of various art forms is amazing... to me anyway.

I'd still like to know where your school is so that I might be able to visit you sometime in the future.  All I know you as is "Doc", but I have to imagine that you have a real name.  

I would also like to say that I enjoy discussing things like this.  I hold no bad feelings towards anyone... even if you're wrong!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  (just kidding!)

Take care, sir.  I truly enjoyed the debate.  <bow>



-John Evans


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## Kosho-Monk (Oct 1, 2004)

> Sensei Evans, John, I hope we are still friends after this...?


Prof. Shuras (Joe),

Of course we're still friends. This kind of stuff doesn't bother me at all. I dont' have to have my friends agree with everything I do. That would be quite boring.

I believe Mitose had something great to teach, and did teach it, to Bruce Juchnik. And I believe that Bruce Juchnik is passing that knowledge (and knowledge of his own) along to me. And I am passing Mitose's, Juchnik's and my own knowledge onto my students. And that cycle will continue for as long as students from my personal lineage keep it going.

I agree with everyone who basically stated that we have to stand on our own reputation. We can't rely on our teacher's reputation, especially if it wasn't all that good. (but that doesn't mean that person wasn't skilled in martial arts, just because he/she was not a good person)  I let my students and peers judge me for me. And I'm never to proud to say I am wrong, if I am.

On a side note I have been invited to teach a 3-hour workshop at the Shaolin Kempo Training Center in Orange, MA on Nov. 6th. If you're in the area it would be nice to see you again.

Take care.


-John


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## Kosho-Monk (Oct 1, 2004)

Doc,

Never mind about telling me who you are.  I just figured out to view your profile and was able to get that info.  I have a friend who lives in S. California (Newport) and have been talking with him to make a trip west.  If/when I am in the area again, I would like to visit your school, if that would be acceptable.

Thank you.


-John


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## The Kai (Oct 1, 2004)

> As far as cult like behavior the only thing I have heard of in the past 50 years as being a cult was the LDS church, and the Kenpo that came out of that era.


The only cult you heard of in the last 50 years was the mormans?
Cult like behavior the utter dependence on authority, inability to make independant decisions do exist always


> Look in some of the older Encyclopedias, and then of course there is always Will Tracy's memories, you know the guy who had Ed Parkers crest copywrited and then Ed had to go look for something else, remember that, oh senior one.


After Parker changed his crest from the fist, to the stylized IKKA patch, has it not remained the same?


> Ed Parker saw that Robert Trias was making money putting on get togethers,
> so he did it, was that wrong no thats business, so when Ed came over to Robert Trias and wanted to join the organization, Robert told him he would have to come in under Bruce, well we all know how well that went over. Does that stir any memories sir?


 Sources Please
[/QUOTE] 
You know Doc if you would really look at the picture, it was Parkers own Black belts that put the boots to him, just like he did to them. Over the years it was a constant battle with one or the other.[/QUOTE]I confused if parker's Yudansha put the boots to them how did they put the boots on Parker?  Would'nt that be a case of getting someone before they got me. so they get me first, only they got me first


> I see that happening in the Kai, happens in all the organizations as far as I have observed, Kenpo, Kaji, Aikido, JKD, FMA, on and on. Lets get some new news or let if go. Your are just blowing smoke, and you and I both know it.


Does this not go for SGM Parker's kai also??

In the end Hanshi is a great Martial artist, start and end it there
-T-


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## kelly keltner (Oct 1, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Look Gary the question was rhetorical. What makes you think I care what Bruce looked like in the seventies? That question too, was rhetorical.


 1.  That would be great if Gary were the one who wrote the post
2. You made a statement that was an obvious reference to a question I asked you about who else was at that tournament in Hawaii.  All I need is a name. Then I can call and ask them about the event.
3. The reference to a statement in one of your posts regarding the quality of Bruce's martial arts in the seventies. I gave you two resources who you know. You can call them and get their opinion.
4. Whether or not you care is of no consequence to me. The fact is you made the statement, and you can dance around, backpeddle, sidestradlle hop to avoid answering is your choice.
5. Give me a break with the cult thing. Kosho is no more a cult that AK, USKA, ATA, WTC, ABF, WBC, NBA, PKA,IDPA, IBF, USDA, B of A, or anybody else for that matter. Wait a minute I'm late for my secret kosho meeting we are plotting to take over the world. (lol) Where's my decoder ring?

kelly
P.s. since we're now plotting to take over the world you can refer to me as Dr. Evil.(lol)


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## mhouse (Oct 1, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> P.s. since we're now plotting to take over the world you can refer to me as Dr. Evil.(lol)


I think you mean _Master_ Evil.  As in....

 "I haven't studied Kempo for X years to be called _Sensei_ Evil, thank you very much."   



 I know it's a glib remark and a badly redone quote, but I couldn't help myself.


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## Karazenpo (Oct 1, 2004)

Kosho Monk, John, yeah, I'd like to see you again. Nov. 6th, Orange, Ma., let me check my work schedule and see what I can do. Take care & be safe, Joe


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## Doc (Oct 1, 2004)

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Never mind about telling me who you are.  I just figured out to view your profile and was able to get that info.  I have a friend who lives in S. California (Newport) and have been talking with him to make a trip west.  If/when I am in the area again, I would like to visit your school, if that would be acceptable.
> 
> ...


Not a problem Mr. Evans.


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