# I would like some help with Long Form 5



## jfarnsworth (Apr 26, 2002)

I would like to receive some help with form 5.  I'm running out of ideas on my own and would appreciate extra opinions on how to look at form 5 in detail. What I'm talking about is how do you go about putting these very few techniques together? Either in a family grouping like hopping crane, leaping crane, sleeper, & dance of death. I understand those but what about some of the others techniques involved. I'm missing something with the relationship of the techniques and why these specific techniques go together. Thank you in advance for all who participate and I'm looking forward to your responses.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## Rainman (Apr 27, 2002)

Try grouping teks by takedowns, strikedowns, sweeps, buckles etc.  Dance of Death and Brushing the storm use the same hand movements for the strikedown.  Interestingly enough D.o.D is frontal whereas Brush moves to the rear but control of the leg is still maintained in both teks.  

One of the main themes in 5 is "takedowns" take them apart and examine these various methodologies and the elements within them.

:asian:


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## clvlkenpo (Apr 28, 2002)

The techniques are grouped by the way they illustrate leverage takedowns from the various angles and positions.

rob


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## Rainman (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by clvlkenpo _
> 
> *The techniques are grouped by the way they illustrate leverage takedowns from the various angles and positions.
> 
> rob *




Hopping Crane and leaping Crane do not use leverage in a typical way- each uses a specific lever if and only if Hopping Crane is taken from the point of view that the opponent is on hands and knees and not supine... and of course that also depends on how 5 is done and interpreted.


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## clvlkenpo (Apr 29, 2002)

This is true, but the position in hopping crane is face down as specified. However, I thought his question concerned how the techniques are grouped together, which is what I was responding too, obviously hopping crane and leaping crane are not grouped together in the form.

rob


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## kenpokid (Apr 29, 2002)

I was wondering if long five is hard to learn or is long form 4 the worst form in the system


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## Michael Billings (Apr 29, 2002)

Or the best form in the system.
-Michael. B.


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## Rainman (Apr 29, 2002)

> obviously hopping crane and leaping crane are not grouped together in the form.



Sure they are.  The transitional one leg crane stance is one way they can be grouped.  Another way is Hopping Crane can be grafted to Leaping Crane when the kick behind the knee is delivered in such a way it causes the opponent to land on hands and knees.  As the opponents knee was buckled from Leaping Crane the foot work from hopping crane can allow one to buckle the elbow the same way.  Now the opponent is face down do Hopping Crane again if you like.  



> I was wondering if long five is hard to learn or is long form 4 the worst form in the system



For me I am still learning Form V- Hell still learning I thru VI on a regular basis.  Keep an open mind it is impossible to finish learning from the system... At least that is my opinion.

:asian:


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## clvlkenpo (Apr 29, 2002)

Ok, I guess I did not really explain what I was meaning for this form. The techniques are grouped in "Pairs" not family groupings etc. I was not talking about family groupings, etc.  only that they are assembled together in pairs to illustrate these leverage principles.

Sorry for the confusion.

Rob


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## Rainman (Apr 30, 2002)

No worries here.  If you are refering to right and left sides (as Pairs) that would be all the forms with the exception of short III.  All forms in AK contain contact manipulation and various forms of leverage.  

In my original post  grouping was suggested by classification of takedown ie sweeps, strikedowns, etc.   Family groupings are inevitable if one intends to graft.   When grouping is done in anyway there is a relationship to be considered...  You used the terms position and priniciples of leverage.   I would add placement to that as well just for a consideration on what takedowns require for optimum results.   But that is just me someone else may use the equation formula and come up with something else.

:asian:


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## clvlkenpo (Apr 30, 2002)

Great... but I am not talking about left and right sides, it is merely that the techniques are grouped together in pairs of two to show the various leverage relationships. ie destructive fans is paired to dance of death. The rest of them follow the same concept of pairing techniques together.

rob


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## Rainman (Apr 30, 2002)

It is quite correct to group dance with destructive fans but it does not work that way throughout the form.  Leap of Death and Back Breaker use very different levers, classifications thereof, and planes.   That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (May 1, 2002)

Let me ask you another question rainman. In class last night we were running through form 5 & I'm curious to your ideas between the strikedown vs. a takedown. From what I remember every takedown is considered a strikedown in kenpo but that doesn't necessarily hold true. I can see a strikedown as DOD but do you consider fallen falcon a strikedown or a takedown? Would you consider fallen falcon as a buckle. I seen your post on strikedown, takedown, sweeps, & buckles. I'd like your input and view points on these. It is a never ending learning process we are in and I would appreciate your thoughts.  I also remember 5 being referred to as the fulcrum form. Looking at that the techniques involved in the crane family all use a different fulcrum method of takedown. 
Dance of Death -  take out the top & bottom of the attacker.
Sleeper  -  Take out the top of the attacker.
Leaping Crane  -  Take out the bottom of the attacker.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## clvlkenpo (May 1, 2002)

Actually you will find that it does work this way throughout the form as it was designed that way. They do use different levers, top and bottom front and rear etc , that is what is being shown by the pairing.

Regards

rob


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## Rainman (May 1, 2002)

Fallan Falcon is a strikedown.  Back Breaker is not a strikedown.  All the forms have fulcrums, V just uses them overtly for takedowns, strikedowns etc.  Sleeper and Leaping Crane also use buckles. 



> Looking at that the techniques involved in the crane family all use a different fulcrum method of takedown.



Lever classification not fulcrum methods... and that also depends on how your teacher presents the information but also keep in mind precision of placement with position.

Depending on how DOD is done the strikedown can be aided by a sweep from your rt leg to the back of his lft leg.  If this is done there are levers (plural) at work.   You used the idea of taking out top and bottom for DOD,  does that not apply to Fallen Falcon? 

 :asian:


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## clvlkenpo (May 1, 2002)

No because no bottom lever is required for falling falcon. Of course some people might do it that way, just as some people do falling falcon as a strike to the face and then use the elbow to the top of the humor bone for the take down using a fwd bow for the torque. as originally written for category completion however there was no stike to the face, just the elbow takedown to complete the category. (but I think it works better with the stike too!) Remember when looking at the levers you have top from front, top from rear bottom from front, bottom from rear, both top and bottom you behind him you in front of him etc.

Have a great day!

Rob


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## Rainman (May 1, 2002)

> No because no bottom lever is required for falling falcon.



I agree.  However Falling Falcon still contains a strikedown.  



> Immediately convert your forward momentum into rotational momentum, as you pivot into a right reverse bow.  This is a STRIKEDOWN that is counter balanced by having your right leg act as a trip.



That is how I have it written.  Pivot from the upward elbow (about mid forearm) track back down and strike the top of the humorous (or thereabouts depending on what else you would like to damage)  with a diagonal downward elbow.  If a push, then a strike. 

 :asian:


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## jfarnsworth (May 1, 2002)

This is some interesting ideas you guys have. I like the use of the "lever" theory taking top, bottom, top & bottom from the front & the rear.  That is more material to think about. I'm sure there are many ways to "group" the techniques together. What is your idea on back breaker? In this technique you really don't sweep, or buckle merely pulling the person backwards.  In an instance for street self-defense it would be whatever it takes to make it work but in this form you step out slightly off line then around behind the attacker.  Once again I'm curious of your thougths.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## clvlkenpo (May 2, 2002)

IT DEPENDS ON WHICH VERSION YOU ARE READING OR TAUGHT, BUT ON DISCUSSION FROM SOMEONE WHO WAS THERE AND HELPED WRITE THE TECHNIQUES WHEN THEY WERE WRITTEN YOU WILL SEE THAT THE STRIKE WITH THE ELBOW IS NOT REALLY WHAT CAUSES THE TAKEDOWN IT MERELY ASSISTS IT THE SAME WAY THE KNEE STRIKE AND ELBOW IN DANCE OF DEATH ASSIST THE TAKEDOWN. BUT THE ANALYSIS OF THE LEVERAGE PRINCIPLES IS THE KEY. AS TO BACK BREAKER YOU SEE THE SAME THING, IT IS NOT A STRIKEDOWN EITHER UNLESS YOU CONSIDER ANY CONTACT A STRIKEDOWN. IT ILLUSTRATES A TAKEDOWN TO THE FRONT OF HIS BASE  WITH YOU BEHIND YOUR OPPONENT AND YOU TAKE OUT THE TOP TO THE REAR FROM THE REAR.
LOOK BEYOND THE TECHNIQUE SEQUENCE FOR THE UNDERLYING PRINCIPLES SHOWN. FALLING FALCON IS SHOWN FOR A VERY SPECIFIC REASON, THE MID ZONE.

ROB


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## Rainman (May 2, 2002)

Rob:


> IT DEPENDS ON WHICH VERSION YOU ARE READING OR TAUGHT



This true.  Obviously the compound lever will take the opponent down using only leverage.  Any time you have leverage you can move the person with ease.  Strikedowns enhance damage if and when they fit.  If the principles and ideas shared by yourself and teacher work for you, great.   

Never said Back Breaker was a strikedown.  Brushing the storm and DOD use the same lever is what I said...  Different theories on how to get to the same place.  I don't use top to bottom I use first, second, and third class levers as the tools of leverage.  


Jason:
Back Breaker is a second class lever for the takedown and that is how I classify the teks in V... sometimes      depends on what I am working on.  Some of the teks in this form use an angle of disturbance to ehance, aid in position etc.  It is important that you figure out ways to make things work on a consistant basis using the symbollic logic and the rest of the tools of our system.

These are ideas from opposing schools of thought use what you can and archive the rest for future consideration.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

Type of attack and from what time?
:asian:


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## Rainman (May 3, 2002)

By type and clock positon... no.  Thanks for the "Master Key Concept"  that is going to be very useful when I delve  deeper into multiple attackers.  Apparently that will start now 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

hee hee  :asian:


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