# Self Defense (Concepts v Reality)



## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

As the title suggests:- No more than that to see if a discussion and swapping of ideas can flow and bring forward things that everyone can benefit from. 

On this forum we all have an interest in MA and to a greater or lesser degree all study the Art or Arts of our choosing. There is discussion about where arts have their flaws, what they were "created" for and what they have evolved into or not into. That is good and it gets heated and the rest as everyone has their own views and ideas, putting forward claim and counter claim for their respective arts etc. 

There is a great wealth of knowledge and experience and that is good. I feel it may be getting wasted.

All the arts (maybe a few exceptions) were created for self defense, some long ago, some not so long ago, some with terminology and concepts behind them that in this day and age are not as easily empathized with or even understood. Are we failing the public in their demand for Self Defense by not seeing past our own arts?

Are we as a Martial Arts community possibly failing in some way? Among ourselves we are looking at the term self defense from the point of view of being trained Martial artists with all that entails and seem to me anyway at times look on things as such. Meaning that we in general look on any attacker as we are, competent and aware of the skills we have or don't have and the strengths or other arts compared to our own. I agree that can be fun and also exasperating. However when it comes to self defense should we not be looking at it from the other side? The general public's side, the corporate companies side, who want to offer or in the former undertake Self Defense. They are not trained and as has been raised in different places and at times (the corporate angle) do not know all that self defense is and what they as an individual or as the corporate manager either need or want. It is easy to say go study this or go study that art or system, is that not a cop out on our part? Yes if individuals ask, then sure that can be said and is said and all to the good but I do feel we are failing in some way as telling a person to go study or even the company to introduce classes in and art is missing the point and the real crux of the matter. 

Martial Arts take time to study (some to a greater extent than others to achieve any level of competence) and my view is that to study any takes a great commitment both in time, energy and finance and that to the layman may not be self evident. For sure people are seeing competitions or demonstrations but are they or the corporate managers actually seeing that to get to that level it takes years of effort, study and commitment? Should we as the current standard bearers of the many and diverse arts not be doing more? Trying to see what they are seeing and from their point of view as opposed to trained Martial artists ? Yes undoubtedly as the trained artist we can say nope that won't work or that may given the right set of circumstances and for us as a community that is easier, the general public maybe not so. Do we as the current incumbents and practitioners of our arts have or think we have a duty to keep things going? To be open honest and upfront about both our arts and what they stand for and are ? 

Our testing ground these days seems to be the cage or the ring (and yes for sure that is a good and legitimate test bed) however not all want to be the fighters or the competitors. Not all will want or feel the need to invest that way. So are we failing as a community? By approaching things from the wrong angle? How do we cope and assimilate the ones who do not want to be fighters or do not need everyday to use the Skills taught in MA dojo (I mean the techniques), how do we as a community make it relevant?

@Dropbear made a point in another thread that made a great amount of sense. As have others so what is the reality of Self Defense, how do we as the standard bearers of the present , cope and carry on the immensely and hugely rewarding field of the Martial Arts and to give to people who may want the full systems but also to people that want only what they need in a way that is understandable and can be accepted in the mainstream. 

We can all and we all will continue to study and pursue our own arts and systems but I do feel that we are failing in some way


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

As mas, we have a screwed view of the world, and it seem a little paranoia, that we need to learn or fine Tune another technique or 10, to be able to defend ourselves, which may be true, but probably isnt.

There are lots and lots of people walking round who are capable of putting up a robust defence against most people, very very few of these are mas, they usually have good strengh, fast reaction but only very rudimentary fighting skills.

So the first question is do you even need ma at all, beyond learning a few punches and trips, if you haven't already picked that up as a child,?


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

The first mistake is believing that skills that work in the ring, mat, or ring won't apply in a self defense situation. People actively avoid fighting arts because they delude themselves into thinking that learning how to actually fight isn't a useful skill, or that they're somehow more evolved than a cage fighter or a boxer.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The first mistake is believing that skills that work in the ring, mat, or ring won't apply in a self defense situation. People actively avoid fighting arts because they delude themselves into thinking that learning how to actually fight isn't a useful skill, or that they're somehow more evolved than a cage fighter or a boxer.


Well possibly, but let's take sandra,a petite pretty girl who wants to walk to get car after dark, are you saying that she should let her self get beaten up twice a week, so she doesn't get beaten up , nether sandra n or I can see the logic in that


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well possibly, but let's take sandra,a petite pretty girl who wants to walk to get car after dark, are you saying that she should let her self get beaten up twice a week, so she doesn't get beaten up , nether sandra n or I can see the logic in that



I would say that Sandra should look into purchasing a pepper spray/taser, a self defense course, and Bjj in order to better protect herself. She won't get "beat up" in Bjj. Roughed up, but not beat up.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

Replies like the above make me wonder if I am doing the right thing, resurrecting my interest in MA.


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Replies like the above make me wonder if I am doing the right thing, resurrecting my interest in MA.



No, you probably shouldn't.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I would say that Sandra should look into purchasing a pepper spray/taser, a self defense course, and Bjj in order to better protect herself. She won't get "beat up" in Bjj. Roughed up, but not beat up.


Ok so that rules out your mma, and boxing sugestion, 

Or Peter who 25 and hitss the weights, and plays basket ball, he strong and fast, he can robustly defend himself against most people, why does he need to do boxing, when he could use the same time to get even stronger and faster with his existing sports,


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> No, you probably shouldn't.



Fortunately, I can see beyond just the fighting side, to things MA can teach that are not taught in a way I like elsewhere.

Genuine question - how old are you? Ball-park will do if you're sensitive about it.


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok so that rules out your mma, and boxing sugestion,



I did include "the mat" in my suggestions. That would include arts like Bjj.



> Or Peter who 25 and hitss the weights, and plays basket ball, he strong and fast, he can robustly defend himself against most people, why does he need to do boxing, when he could use the same time to get even stronger and faster with his existing sports,



Obviously Peter wouldn't need MA to defend himself. In his case, MA would be more of an exercise or something to do for fun and leisure. Being rather large and athletic myself, I also didn't have to worry much about someone attacking me.


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Fortunately, I can see beyond just the fighting side, to things MA can teach that are not taught in a way I like elsewhere.



Budo teachings and prancing around in kimonos won't do much good when someone is on top of you trying to choke you to death.



> Genuine question - how old are you? Ball-park will do if you're sensitive about it.



Soon to be 42. Sad to say.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Budo teachings and prancing around in kimonos won't do much good when someone is on top of you trying to choke you to death.
> 
> 
> 
> Soon to be 42. Sad to say.



Well, I'm 52, and I haven't found anyone on top of me trying to choke me to death yet, lol.


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Well, I'm 52, and I haven't found anyone on top of me trying to choke me to death yet, lol.



Probably because you're not a petite young female. Consider yourself fortunate. I have a daughter who is a petite young female in her late teens, and the stories she tells me about how men catcall her, follow her, and verbally abuse her on the street is quite frightening. 

It's quite easy to see how things can escalate beyond simple verbal taunting and awkward stalking.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2018)

A martial art has layers like an onion.

The idea is you give people the tools and the motivation to be the best they can.

But however far people take that is up to them. We have one class that contains fighters, martial hobbyists, fitness challenge people and cops who use the art for self defence.

Everyone can support everyones goals even though they are different from person to person.

This means sometimes the fighters have to take time out to train the hobbyists and some times the hobbyists have to step up and help the fighters.

I don't see how you guys have a conflict of concept.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=456096418227314


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Well, I'm 52, and I haven't found anyone on top of me trying to choke me to death yet, lol.



Happened to me this morning.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I did include "the mat" in my suggestions. That would include arts like Bjj.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously Peter wouldn't need MA to defend himself. In his case, MA would be more of an exercise or something to do for fun and leisure. Being rather large and athletic myself, I also didn't have to worry much about someone attacking me.


yoga uses mats, I take it your not recommending that ?,but you expresly mentioned mma and boxing.

So yes, Peter doesn't need boxing to defend himself, now, doing more weights and basket ball will continue his development, which takes me back to my original point, 
Do people actually need a ma, to be able to defend against most people, could they play other sports and get much the same result


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> yoga uses mats, I take it your not recommending that ?,but you expresly mentioned mma and boxing.



Last I checked, Yoga isn't a martial art.



> So yes, Peter doesn't need boxing to defend himself, now, doing more weights and basket ball will continue his development, which takes me back to my original point,
> Do people actually need a ma, to be able to defend against most people, could they play other sports and get much the same result



Again, if you're a muscular athletic male, probably not. If you're a scrawny little guy, or a female, I would highly recommend it.


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Happened to me this morning.



The wife don't count and neither does the student your teaching lol


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Budo teachings and prancing around in kimonos won't do much good when someone is on top of you trying to choke you to death.
> 
> 
> 
> Soon to be 42. Sad to say.




I didn't expect you to add anything that would not include so form of having ago at the TMA (again your definition of said) 

Oh and what arts do wear full kimono to train?

And buying pepper spray or a taser, jobo can't nor can sandra if she in the UK as she would be arrested , just for your information 


I was kinda hoping that this would not got to the stage of you banging on purely about what is wrong with every art you don't approve of and why and saying basically it BJJ or forget it ,


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Last I checked, Yoga isn't a martial art.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if you're a muscular athletic male, probably not. If you're a scrawny little guy, or a female, I would highly recommend it.


Well it's not at all dissimilar to a number of ma, but anyway a fairly advanced level of yoga, gives you Extreme strengh, so it will with our doubt help at self defence.

So big guys don't need ma, but scrawny guys do, wouldnt that suggest that scrawny guys may just as well spend their time becoming big guys


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well it's not at all dissimilar to a number of ma, but anyway a fairly advanced level of yoga, gives you Extreme strengh, so it will with our doubt help at self defence.
> 
> So big guys don't need ma, but scrawny guys do, wouldnt that suggest that scrawny guys may just as well spend their time becoming big guys



Some scrawny guys can't become big guys due to genetics. There's nothing wrong with weight and endurance training though, even if you don't gain significant size.


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I didn't expect you to add anything that would not include so form of having ago at the TMA (again your definition of said)
> 
> Oh and what arts do wear full kimono to train?
> 
> ...



My apologies, I'm an American so I tend to see things from an American perspective. The lack of being able to carry pepper sprays or tasers would make the practice of Bjj and a general SD course for Sandra even more necessary IMO.

Anyways, my earlier point stands; Ancient Eastern concepts don't mean spit if someone is trying to take your head off.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Some scrawny guys can't become big guys due to genetics. There's nothing wrong with weight and endurance training though, even if you don't gain significant size.


Some ??? very nearly All scrawny males can put on muscle and increase strengh, they may not reach the level of competition body builder, but that's not to say they cant be a lot bigger/ stronger than they are and quite possibly bigger and stronger than any attacker.

If they have some rare genetic condition that prevents muscle development Mma not going to help them much anyway


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Some ??? All scrawny males can put on muscle and increase strengh, they may not reach the level of competition body builder, but that's not to say they cant be a lot bigger/ stronger than they are and quite possibly bigger and stronger than any attacker.



You originally said "scrawny guys becoming big guys".

In any case, yes I agree with you that they can definitely become stronger through exercise and weight training. However, there are still some small guys out there who could become targets just because of their smaller stature.

My uncle for example is 5'5, and while he lifted weights and played sports, he still looked short and skinny while wearing clothes. One night while walking home, he got jumped by some guys who beat him up and took his belongings. If he was 6'3, and built like a tank that probably wouldn't have happened.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Budo teachings and prancing around in kimonos won't do much good when someone is on top of you trying to choke you to death.



Hey, don't knock kimonos. Stevie Ray Vaughan wore them, and look what it did for his guitar playing, lol

Actually Hanzou, I sympathise with you. You clearly live in an area where violence is rife. You are quite right to get your daughter learning effective self defence.

(Sorry, I added that last comment while you were giving me a rating).


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You originally said "scrawny guys becoming big guys".
> 
> In any case, yes I agree with you that they can definitely become stronger through exercise and weight training. However, there are still some small guys out there who could become targets just because of their smaller stature.
> 
> My uncle for example is 5'5, and while he lifted weights and played sports, he still looked short and skinny while wearing clothes. One night while walking home, he got jumped by some guys who beat him up and took his belongings. If he was 6'3, and built like a tank that probably wouldn't have happened.


Big is a relative term, being short in height is a red hearing you've introduced, there's no ma on earth they will correct that, if   attacking you coz your short,And skinny, then they will still attack you if you do mma, it's a totally redundant point


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Big is a relative term, being short in height is a red hearing you've introduced, there's no ma on earth they will correct that, if   attacking you coz your short, then they will still attack you if you do mma, it's a totally redundant point



That's right, and practicing a real martial art can get your short behind out of a bad situation.

The same thing applies to females.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's right, and practicing a real martial art can get your short behind out of a bad situation.
> 
> The same thing applies to females.


Can, yes it can, will it work when there's a group intent on robbing you, most probably not, will be athletic get you out of a bad situation ? Yes it may, if your more athletic than the guy attacking you and there's not a big group of them

Are you now only recommending mma, for short skinny people


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Can, yes it can, will it work when there's a group intent on robbing you, most probably not, will be athletic get you out of a bad situation ? Yes it may, if your more athletic than the guy attacking you and there's not a big group of them
> 
> Are you now only recommending mma, for short skinny people



Knowing MA will probably get you out of that situation better than not knowing MA. Additionally, learning a real MA will help you gain athleticism anyway, so your point here is rather redundant.

I recommend any skinny or otherwise weaker person to study MMA or a similar martial art.


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> My apologies, I'm an American so I tend to see things from an American perspective. The lack of being able to carry pepper sprays or tasers would make the practice of Bjj and a general SD course for Sandra even more necessary IMO.
> 
> Anyways, my earlier point stands; Ancient Eastern concepts don't mean spit if someone is trying to take your head off.



Again making statements without research , but hey that seems to be your way and is there actually anything you can say without BJJ getting popped in ?


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Hey, don't knock kimonos. Stevie Ray Vaughan wore them, and look what it did for his guitar playing, lol
> 
> Actually Hanzou, I sympathise with you. You clearly live in an area where violence is rife. You are quite right to get your daughter learning effective self defence.
> 
> (Sorry, I added that last comment while you were giving me a rating).



Yes, America is a rather violent place. I regret raising children in this country.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Knowing MA will probably get you out of that situation better than not knowing MA. Additionally, learning a real MA will help you gain athleticism anyway, so your point here is rather redundant.
> 
> I recommend any skinny or otherwise weaker person to study MMA or a similar martial art.


Ok you need to justify BETTER, Peter is attacked in a bar, by an over weight beer swilling monster, be used his superior athleticism to grab his attackers head and smash it repeated in to the bar, what would mma training have added to that situation ?


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's right, and practicing a real martial art can get your short behind out of a bad situation.
> 
> The same thing applies to females.



So first what is a real Martial Art ?

Second you are aware that studying any art takes time?

Third is BJJ and MMA your stock answer to everything ?


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Hey, don't knock kimonos. Stevie Ray Vaughan wore them, and look what it did for his guitar playing, lol
> 
> Actually Hanzou, I sympathise with you. You clearly live in an area where violence is rife. You are quite right to get your daughter learning effective self defence.
> 
> (Sorry, I added that last comment while you were giving me a rating).




Don't place to much on Hanzou rating lol


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok you need to justify BETTER, Peter is attacked in a bar, by an over weight beer swilling monster, be used his superior athleticism to grab his attackers head and smash it repeated in to the bar, what would mma training have added to that situation ?



You do know that there's guys who are very muscular and athletic who can't fight for spit right? Teach a big guy MMA or wrestling, and he becomes a very dangerous person. Far more dangerous than he was before he learned MMA.


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> So first what is a real Martial Art ?
> 
> Second you are aware that studying any art takes time?



You can become decent in Bjj in under a year of intensive practice. It'll take you years to become proficient in many of the TMAs out there. As a father, I'd rather put my kids in a MA where they can get verfiable results a lot faster. If my daughter is 17, I don't want to wait until she is close to 30 to be able to use some ancient Asian system if someone is attacking her.



> Third is BJJ and MMA your stock answer to everything ?



If you actually read the discussion, you would know that it isn't a "stock answer".


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You do know that there's guys who are very muscular and athletic who can't fight for spit right? Teach a big guy MMA or wrestling, and he becomes a very dangerous person. Far more dangerous than he was before he learned MMA.



Teach anyone a MA and they become more dangerous ........not just MMA or wrestling


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You do know that there's guys who are very muscular and athletic who can't fight for spit right? Teach a big guy MMA or wrestling, and he becomes a very dangerous person. Far more dangerous than he was before he learned MMA.


Are there, where are these people ? They don't live round here, fighting is an athletic pursuit, being athletic is the first requirment,
You don't need to be dangerous, you just need to be more dangerous than your attacker
If your going to throw up one of the many little small guy, used bjj, against weight lifter, vids,that would only be relivent to self defence if there was a sudden out break of bjj muggrs combing the street looking for victims


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You can become decent in Bjj in under a year of intensive practice. It'll take you years to become proficient in many of the TMAs out there. As a father, I'd rather put my kids in a MA where they can get verfiable results a lot faster. If my daughter is 17, I don't want to wait until she is close to 30 to be able to use some ancient Asian system if someone is attacking her.
> 
> 
> 
> If you actually read the discussion, you would know that it isn't a "stock answer".




So you are saying basically the only art that should be considered for self defense in BJJ ?


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Are there, where are these people ? They don't live round here, fighting is an athletic pursuit, being athletic is the first requirment,
> 
> If your going to throw up one of the many little small guy, used bjj, against weight lifter, that would only be reticent to self defence if there was a sudden out break of bjj muggrs combing the street looking for victims



So let me make sure I understand your argument here:

Are you saying that an (untrained) big muscular guy would gain no additional fighting ability from studying MMA, Bjj, boxing, wrestling, etc?


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> So you are saying basically the only art that should be considered for self defense in BJJ ?



Nope.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

Actually, although I disagree with Hanzou's apparent attitude that MA are _only_ good for fighting and self defence, he is not wrong about learning something effective for those aspects if you live somewhere where it could well be an issue. And what you want in that case is something you can learn to use effectively as quickly as possible. So steady learning of traditional methods perhaps is not the best solution in that situation.

But, although I know that some are _not_ actually very good, wouldn't it be better to find a _good_ general self defence course that is specifically tailored for this? Something that condenses a number of street application techniques useable by those who may be physically disadvantaged?
If I lived somewhere where there was a lot of street violence, I'd possibly consider that myself, instead of looking for the self-development/fitness/ hobby/whatever side of MA. But I probably wouldn't look for even MMA or BJJ, to begin with at least, as I think it might still take too long to become proficient at many of the techniques taught...?
What I'd want is how to disarm someone with a knife, pick up the nearest object and use it as a weapon, learn one easy-to-use technique that will disable an antagonist at least long enough to run out of danger. And I'd want these to be the_ first_ things they taught me. I wouldn't be looking to get into a major brawl.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So let me make sure I understand your argument here:
> 
> Are you saying that an (untrained) big muscular guy would gain no additional fighting ability from studying MMA, Bjj, boxing, wrestling, etc?


No, I'm saying they have no need for addition fighting ability, if they can beat anyone who is likely to attack them, getting in to the state of paranoia, that you may have to have the ability to beat a local area champion boxer, isn't a sensible way to spend your time, and you most likely couldn't anyway, even if you did learn mma


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> No, I'm saying they have no need for addition fighting ability, if they can beat anyone who is likely to attack them, getting in to the state of paranoia, that you may have to have the ability to beat a local area champion boxer, isn't a sensible way to spend your time, and you most likely couldn't anyway, even if you did learn mma



Just because you're big and athletic doesn't mean that you can beat "anyone" that attacks you. There's always a bigger fish, and you really have no clue what your attacker has trained in. With the dispersion of techniques on Youtube, and wrestling and boxing being a widespread sport in secondary schools and recreation centers here in the states, there's plenty of chances of you running into someone who can knock your block off, no matter how big you are.

However, don't misunderstand me, I generally agree with you that a larger, athletic person doesn't really need to learn a MA for self defense, because their chances of being attacked are far lower than other people.


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Actually, although I disagree with Hanzou's apparent attitude that MA are _only_ good for fighting and self defence, he is not wrong about learning something effective for those aspects if you live somewhere where it could well be an issue. And what you want in that case is something you can learn to use effectively as quickly as possible. So steady learning of traditional methods perhaps is not the best solution in that situation.
> 
> But, although I know that some are _not_ actually very good, wouldn't it be better to find a _good_ general self defence course that is specifically tailored for this? Something that condenses a number of street application techniques useable by those who may be physically disadvantaged?
> If I lived somewhere where there was a lot of street violence, I'd possibly consider that myself, instead of looking for the self-development/fitness/ hobby/whatever side of MA. But I probably wouldn't look for even MMA or BJJ, to begin with at least, as I think it might still take too long to become proficient at many of the techniques taught...?
> What I'd want is how to disarm someone with a knife, pick up the nearest object and use it as a weapon, learn one easy-to-use technique that will disable an antagonist at least long enough to run out of danger. And I'd want these to be the_ first_ things they taught me. I wouldn't be looking to get into a major brawl.




The first tech you need in self defense is run and don't fight ...as that the best defense of all 

My friend there is no one tech that you can be taught that will work everytime !00% 

Actually that is one of the reasons I started this thread was to see if the vast knowledge on here from all different Arts and systems can be used and to get people thinking laterally not ...this is the way or the art


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Actually, although I disagree with Hanzou's apparent attitude that MA are _only_ good for fighting and self defence, he is not wrong about learning something effective for those aspects if you live somewhere where it could well be an issue. And what you want in that case is something you can learn to use effectively as quickly as possible. So steady learning of traditional methods perhaps is not the best solution in that situation.
> 
> But, although I know that some are _not_ actually very good, wouldn't it be better to find a _good_ general self defence course that is specifically tailored for this? Something that condenses a number of street application techniques useable by those who may be physically disadvantaged?
> If I lived somewhere where there was a lot of street violence, I'd possibly consider that myself, instead of looking for the self-development/fitness/ hobby/whatever side of MA. But I probably wouldn't look for even MMA or BJJ, to begin with at least, as I think it might still take too long to become proficient at many of the techniques taught...?
> What I'd want is how to disarm someone with a knife, pick up the nearest object and use it as a weapon, learn one easy-to-use technique that will disable an antagonist at least long enough to run out of danger. And I'd want these to be the_ first_ things they taught me. I wouldn't be looking to get into a major brawl.


But that's the big lie, of self defence courses, there's are not simple techniques you can learn quickly that will neutralise a vastly physically superior opponents, first you need to close the gap physicaly, then you need to invest a fair amount of time, in learning and repeating your skills till they become ingrained,


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> just because you're big and athletic doesn't mean that you can beat "anyone" that attacks you. There's always a bigger fish, and you really have no clue what your attacker has trained in. With the dispersion of techniques on Youtube, and wrestling and boxing being a widespread sport in secondary schools and recreation centers here in the states, there's plenty of chances of you running into someone who can knock your block off, no matter how big you are.




You tube ok ...that is and can be a great tool no doubt as can vids , if you actually know what your looking at as opposed to only thinking you know 

Not everywhere is like the states that has high schools offering boxing etc so just bear that in mind 

and really how many street attacks are made by trained fighters ?


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Just because you're big and athletic doesn't mean that you can beat "anyone" that attacks you. There's always a bigger fish, and you really have no clue what your attacker has trained in. With the dispersion of techniques on Youtube, and wrestling and boxing being a widespread sport in secondary schools and recreation centers here in the states, there's plenty of chances of you running into someone who can knock your block off, no matter how big you are.
> 
> However, don't misunderstand me, I generally agree with you that a larger, athletic person doesn't really need to learn a MA for self defense, because their chances of being attacked are far lower than other people.




Have you ever been in a brawl or a street fight?


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> You tube ok ...that is and can be a great tool no doubt as can vids , if you actually know what your looking at as opposed to only thinking you know
> 
> Not everywhere is like the states that has high schools offering boxing etc so just bear that in mind
> 
> and really how many street attacks are made by trained fighters ?



Here's the thing though, if you happened to have wrestled in high school, some of the concepts in Bjj and other grappling arts are fairly easy to grasp. There's plenty of jackasses doing backyard wrestling and other stupid crap, and they're picking up moves like chokes and arm bars. If you're already fairly solid with a double leg takedown (which frankly isn't that hard to learn), grounding and pounding isn't exactly rocket science.

There aren't many MAs that teach you how to get out of that unfortunately.



now disabled said:


> Have you ever been in a brawl or a street fight?



If you consider a mentally handicapped kid with a hammer trying to turn my brains into jello a "street fight" then yes.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Just because you're big and athletic doesn't mean that you can beat "anyone" that attacks you. There's always a bigger fish, and you really have no clue what your attacker has trained in. With the dispersion of techniques on Youtube, and wrestling and boxing being a widespread sport in secondary schools and recreation centers here in the states, there's plenty of chances of you running into someone who can knock your block off, no matter how big you are.
> 
> However, don't misunderstand me, I generally agree with you that a larger, athletic person doesn't really need to learn a MA for self defense, because their chances of being attacked are far lower than other people.


I said LIKELY to attack you, that's druggies and vagabonds and drunks and road ragers..and jealous husbands.

We don't live in a kUng fu film where every one is a trained fighter

How likelyIan I to be attacked by a mt, Or bjj,, fighter, I've never met one out side of a dojo,, the chances of being attacked by one on my way home from the pub are practically nil.

You can't live a reasonable life with a the paranoia, that the absolute worse out come will happen, or you would be spending your money on a nuclear bunker, and stocking up on oozies


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> I said LIKELY to attack you, that's druggies and vagabonds and drunks and road ragers..and jealous husbands.
> 
> We don't live in a kUng fu film where every one is a trained fighter
> 
> ...



Hilarious that you think the possibility of running into a trained attacker is the equivalent of "living in a Kung Fu film".


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> My friend there is no one tech that you can be taught that will work everytime !00%



Well, no, I don't mean literally _one_ technique - what I meant was a limited number of techniques, enough to give a range of options without confusing the student with over-complexity. Remember, I'm talking about initial training for the ready-use locker. What they are _most likely_ to be able to use with no prior experience (I have Hanzou's daughter in mind here, and others in that situation, learning something for the first time).



jobo said:


> But that's the big lie, of self defence courses, there's are not simple techniques you can learn quickly that will neutralise a vastly physically superior opponents, first you need to close the gap physicaly, then you need to invest a fair amount of time, in learning and repeating your skills till they become ingrained,



Yeah, I can see that side too, lol. But again, what I mean is those techniques that the inexperienced _have best chance with _in the early stages of learning. Best place to hit to knock that knife from his hand, tips on applying a kick in the nether regions, that kind of thing, taught _*first*_. Of course you get better with practice and as you then begin to learn further techniques. But often, martial arts classes_ don't_ address those things first. Often, they don't come into a syllabus until much later.


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Here's the thing though, if you happened to have wrestled in high school, some of the concepts in Bjj and other grappling arts are fairly easy to grasp. There's plenty of jackasses doing backyard wrestling and other stupid crap, and they're picking up moves like chokes and arm bars. If you're already fairly solid with a double leg takedown (which frankly isn't that hard to learn), grounding and pounding isn't exactly rocket science.
> 
> There aren't many MAs that teach you how to get out of that unfortunately.
> 
> ...




Again I know of no High schools here that teach wrestling 

And your saying if you do or have done wrestling then you will understand or get the concepts of the grappling arts?

Ok you handicapped kid scenario you used Bjj skills to deal with that then ?


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> I said LIKELY to attack you, that's druggies and vagabonds and drunks and road ragers..and jealous husbands.
> 
> We don't live in a kUng fu film where every one is a trained fighter
> 
> ...




Jobo that's uzi not oozie lol 


but you are right I would suspect that running into a trained attacker like Hanzou is saying or alluding to is not that common 

unless he saying the hammer  kid was a trained hammer fighter


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Again I know of no High schools here that teach wrestling



Just about every high school here in the states does, and they produce some damn good grapplers. So while that is no concern for you, it's a very real concern for us here in the US.



> And your saying if you do or have done wrestling then you will understand or get the concepts of the grappling arts?



Absolutely. Wrestling itself is a grappling art, and wrestling is the root of the majority of grappling arts to begin with.



> Ok you handicapped kid scenario you used Bjj skills to deal with that then ?



Yes, he met a triangle choke.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Hilarious that you think the possibility of running into a trained attacker is the equivalent of "living in a Kung Fu film".


Yes, first you have to find someone who is trained, which is a very small % of the population, and then you hava to annoy them sufficiently that they attack you, how many millions to one against is that ? and if they are fat or old or drunk, there training matters less and less

I've never ever been attacked by a trained fighter, never, a few rugby players, but I was playing rugby, so that's reasonable


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Well, no, I don't mean literally _one_ technique - what I meant was a limited number of techniques, enough to give a range of options without confusing the student with over-complexity. Remember, I'm talking about initial training for the ready-use locker. What they are _most likely_ to be able to use with no prior experience (I




What do you mean by right out the locker ?


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Just about every high school here in the states does, and they produce some damn good grapplers. So while that is no concern for you, it's a very real concern for us here in the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok so what is your definition of the grappling arts ?


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ok so what is your definition of the grappling arts ?



Jujitsu, Catch Wrestling, Shao Jiao (sp?), Judo, Bjj, Sambo, etc.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> What do you mean by right out the locker ?



Those techniques that have a chance of being effective with the least practice. A kick in the nuts, for instance (as an _example_).
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe _all_ techniques take hours and hours of practice to be of any use? In which case, I'd move to a quieter neighbourhood, lol.


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Jujitsu, Catch Wrestling, Shao Jiao (sp?), Judo, Bjj, Sambo, etc.




ok so only arts that have ground work as in applying techs on the ground?


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> ok so only arts that have ground work as in applying techs on the ground?



Standing and ground.


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Those techniques that have a chance of being effective with the least practice. A kick in the nuts, for instance (as an _example_).
> I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe _all_ techniques take hours and hours of practice to be of any use? In which case, I'd move to a quieter neighbourhood, lol.




It not only about learning the techs (yes the simpler the better ) but can you apply them. It not just only the takedown or the knockout there are other things too 

Also do bear in mind that a load of street attacks are over quick and that requires the person defending to react that way (yes simple techs) but it requires that you are in a position and are capable of applying techs taught, eg if a druggie threatens ya with a knife demanding your wallet or what ever .......what is your priority there?


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Standing and ground.




ok


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Well, no, I don't mean literally _one_ technique - what I meant was a limited number of techniques, enough to give a range of options without confusing the student with over-complexity. Remember, I'm talking about initial training for the ready-use locker. What they are _most likely_ to be able to use with no prior experience (I have Hanzou's daughter in mind here, and others in that situation, learning something for the first time).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First knife disarm have much the same result as not doing a knife disarm, unless your lightning fast. Or could convince someone who wasn't going to stab yiu, to stab you

Really, what you learn at white belt are all the techniques you need for street defence, if your good at them, and the guy is not a mma, fighter. Or what you learn in the fidecouple month of boxing or bjj, or what ever.

The trick is to actually be good at those few, not to keep learning new things, with out ever coming close to be competent at what you have already done


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> It not only about learning the techs (yes the simpler the better ) but can you apply them. It not just only the takedown or the knockout there are other things too
> 
> Also do bear in mind that a load of street attacks are over quick and that requires the person defending to react that way (yes simple techs) but it requires that you are in a position and are capable of applying techs taught, eg if a druggie threatens ya with a knife demanding your wallet or what ever .......what is your priority there?



Are you assuming that I mean you join a class, and that same evening you're transformed into Superman?

I'll kill _myself_ before I'll hand over _my_ wallet, lol.

What is the point though, in training for years and years for something that may never happen? And as I said, if you live somewhere where there's a good chance it will happen, move somewhere else! Or are you going to live somewhere that day after day, there is a high chance you'll get mugged? Then mugged again. And again. And again and again and again and...? What, you're going to deal with so many muggers that you'll become known in your area as someone not to mug? Clint Eastwood, much?! Sod that, just move! lol


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Are you assuming that I mean you join a class, and that same evening you're transformed into Superman?
> 
> I'll kill _myself_ before I'll hand over _my_ wallet, lol.
> 
> What is the point though, in training for years and years for something that may never happen? And as I said, if you live somewhere where there's a good chance it will happen, move somewhere else! Or are you going to live somewhere that day after day, there is a high chance you'll get mugged? Then mugged again. And again. And again and again and again and...? What, you're going to deal with so many muggers that you'll become known in your area as someone not to mug? Clint Eastwood, much?! Sod that, just move! lol




No joining a class does not turn you into superman lol

I was just asking what your priority would be in that scenario ? 

You said you wouldn't give up your wallet so thereby you have made the choice to fight not flight ................so now what is your priority ? 

BTW your first priority is ...your life lol


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> No joining a class does not turn you into superman lol
> 
> I was just asking what your priority would be in that scenario ?
> 
> ...


I think that was parody


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## now disabled (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> I think that was parody




you mean last gasp or me ?


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> First knife disarm have much the same result as not doing a knife disarm, unless your lightning fast.
> 
> Really, what you learn at white belt are all the techniques you need for street defence, if your good at them, and the guy is not a mma, fighter. Or what you learn in the fidecouple month of boxing or bjj, or what ever.
> 
> The trick is to actually be good at those few, not to keep learning new things, with out ever coming close to be competent at what you have already done



So get a gun. So what you get arrested for carrying it - if you don't carry it, you'll get killed or maimed for life, right? No? Your area not nasty? So don't bother learning MA for self defence at all. I live in a city, and I've never felt threatened here yet. Most folks don't, and nothing happens to most folks. Even if I were fully fit and able-bodied, I wouldn't be learning MA out of fear. And I've lived in supposedly dodgier places than now too, still didn't feel, "Oh God, I better learn MA to look after myself!" What would be the point if it took me years to get good enough to use any of it?

I get this as a motorcyclist. "Oh, but you get killed riding those things." And what's the stock reply? "Yes, but I might get run over by a bus tomorrow."


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> No joining a class does not turn you into superman lol
> 
> I was just asking what your priority would be in that scenario ?
> 
> ...



Considering that I have the skill to break almost every bone in the human body, and/or kill someone with my bare hands, and I have utilized that ability on much larger, resisting opponents, joining a martial art class made me very close to superman.

That said, if someone wants my wallet, they can have it.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That said, if someone wants my wallet, they can have it.



I'll PM you my address, lol
Oh wait, you'll just empty it first. You're no fun!


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## Headhunter (Aug 31, 2018)

Personally I just do it for fun....I don't care if I can defend myself, I dont care if I can beat someone in a ring I do it because I enjoy it and have nothing better to do


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2018)

Well, I will borrow from a post I wrote a few months back when this topic last came up.   Most important thing, I think, is managing expectations.  The best self defense training is to start out as a person who isn't a dick and does not engage in any high risk behaviors.  That works for just about everyone.  From there, a person who worked as a bouncer prior to enlisting in the military, and who is (or was) a cop, who also trains and competes in MMA, AND who has a particular interest in how all of these skills can apply in various contexts.   Now, that guy will be excellent at self defense.

You could likely get by with just not being a dick and not engaging in high risk behaviors.  Having any one of the other elements above will help.

Bottom line, though, without one of the above elements, or something very similar (i.e., a gang enforcer or some other professionally violent person), you can train self defense all day long and be no better able to defend yourself.  Self defense isn't something you learn in a vacuum.  It's applying skills you already have in the context of personal safety.
Look at a relatively simple skill, like CPR.  It's generally performed incorrectly, and largely ineffective (as best as I can tell, people who receive bystander CPR have about the same survival rate and rate of recovery as those who do not receive help until the EMTs arrive).   Self defense is like that.  It makes people feel better, but otherwise, is more about feeling safer than being safer.

So, threads like this irritate me.  Not because it's X vs Y.  But because it's apples and apple pie.  Martial sports are probably the most accessible path to self defense skills for most people.  Self defense programs for regular, non-violent people, that don't include "martial sport" are deeply flawed, like an apple pie without apples.

You can teach a skill, but you can't learn it for someone.  E.g., you can teach a skill to an administrative assistant the same way you teach it to a cop, but you can't learn it for them and you can't do it for them.  You can, however, develop traits im folks who are receptive by teaching them behaviors.

I'm talking about the office worker, computer programmer, teacher, hair stylist or otherwise non-violent person who has never been a bouncer, soldier, cop, bodyguard or hitman.  Let's call this group "almost everyone."  These folks who take "self defense" classes aren't learning skills that will make them more safe.  Or to be fair, there is zero evidence that they are.  They MIGHT be learning behaviors that will help them be more safe, but I don't think these behaviors are specific to self defense training.  Skills development in a self defense class is going to be limited, regardless of how long they train. 

To be more specific, for these regular people, I think the aspects of a "self defense" course that actually help are not specific to self defense training.  In other words, among the traits they are developing are self-esteem, confidence, a sense of community, positive role models, a fighting spirit, fitness, and athleticism (well, those last two are not always intrinsic to self defense classes).  You can develop these same traits doing Zhumba or Tae Bo, or training for a Tough Mudder course.

 Look at all the tenuous leaps of faith one must take for which there is no supporting evidence, and in some cases, evidence to the contrary:

1:  You have to believe that the skills you are learning actually work for someone.
2:  ... that the techniques will actually help you and not make things worse.
3:  ... that you can perform a technique at all.
4:  ... under pressure, in the safety of training.
5:  ... outside of training, in some context (i.e., on the job, in a ring)
6:  ... AND then in the context of self defense.

There are some folks teaching self defense to other folks here who think they're at 6, but are really stuck at somewhere between 3 and 4.  The good news is, if you reach step 5, it's a relatively short leap to step 6. 

Going back to the point I led off with, we commonly see people teach a system and then build expertise in a system.  Can this work?   Hard to say.  And is there anything wrong with it?  Nothing at all.  If you have a system you teach, call it Buka-do, and you teach people to nutshot and curbstomp bad guys, it's up to you to establish the criteria for evaluating their performance.  You could absolutely teach someone to be an expert in Buka-do.  Will that make them able to fight off a bad guy?  Absolutely no way to know.

Now, I understand that some guys insist that you can skip step 5, but I have yet to see an example of someone developing skill in something without ever actually doing it... other than self defense, of course.


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## Martial D (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Some ??? very nearly All scrawny males can put on muscle and increase strengh, they may not reach the level of competition body builder, but that's not to say they cant be a lot bigger/ stronger than they are and quite possibly bigger and stronger than any attacker.
> 
> If they have some rare genetic condition that prevents muscle development Mma not going to help them much anyway



You can lift all the weights you want.  if you can't throw a punch or gauge and control distance they won't help you much.

I find the idea that being in shape and playing basketball would somehow be enough against someone that knew how to fight a bit weird to be honest. Certainly not my experience.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> You can lift all the weights you want.  if you can't throw a punch or gauge and control distance they won't help you much.
> 
> I find the idea that being in shape and playing basketball would somehow be enough against someone that knew how to fight a bit weird to be honest. Certainly not my experience.


They will help you a great deal of you grab them by the throat and smash them it a wall, , there are good fighters all over the world that have never been anywhere near a ring an octagon or a dojo, any sports that gives you movement, reactions and co Ordination will help with fighting


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## Buka (Aug 31, 2018)

Steve said:


> Well, I will borrow from a post I wrote a few months back when this topic last came up.   Most important thing, I think, is managing expectations.  The best self defense training is to start out as a person who isn't a dick and does not engage in any high risk behaviors.  That works for just about everyone.  From there, a person who worked as a bouncer prior to enlisting in the military, and who is (or was) a cop, who also trains and competes in MMA, AND who has a particular interest in how all of these skills can apply in various contexts.   Now, that guy will be excellent at self defense.
> 
> You could likely get by with just not being a dick and not engaging in high risk behaviors.  Having any one of the other elements above will help.
> 
> ...


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## Anarax (Aug 31, 2018)

now disabled said:


> As the title suggests:- No more than that to see if a discussion and swapping of ideas can flow and bring forward things that everyone can benefit from.
> 
> On this forum we all have an interest in MA and to a greater or lesser degree all study the Art or Arts of our choosing. There is discussion about where arts have their flaws, what they were "created" for and what they have evolved into or not into. That is good and it gets heated and the rest as everyone has their own views and ideas, putting forward claim and counter claim for their respective arts etc.
> 
> ...



People will always have misconceptions about that which they don't study nor train. I don't see the misconceptions nor decline of quality of some MA as a failing on Martial Artists as a whole. People will dupe others into taking low quality martial arts classes/SD courses, for the ones taking them don't know any better. There's not much we can do other than stick to what we're doing and try to maintain the quality of our own training/MA.

I do agree that we live in an instant reward society and the simple reality of hard/long-term training being a requirement to become proficient goes against people's misinformed expectations.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> They will help you a great deal of you grab them by the throat and smash them it a wall, , there are good fighters all over the world that have never been anywhere near a ring an octagon or a dojo, any sports that gives you movement, reactions and co Ordination will help with fighting



Isn't it more efficient to build self defence physique via martial arts?


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Isn't it more efficient to build self defence physique via martial arts?


Well yes and no, if you want to build muscle to impress girls and play rugby, basket bascreenplay on a,soccer team with your mates, then giving that up to train ma is not an efficient use of time. No, if all your expecting to deal with is an occasional bar fight or a kick off in the taxi queue, just being in fairly good shape will take care of that.

If you live in a world of gangsta drug deals, then it may be a good idea, though dojo are not generally full of gangsta drug dealers, so even they don't seem to brother, just lift more weights


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## Martial D (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> They will help you a great deal of you grab them by the throat and smash them it a wall, , there are good fighters all over the world that have never been anywhere near a ring an octagon or a dojo, any sports that gives you movement, reactions and co Ordination will help with fighting



Sure there are.People learn to fight by...fighting. No martial training required.

Learning how to shoot 3 from the outside won't help you throw a solid punch though. Just being in shape, although helpful, wont make your awkward strikes less awkward, nor will being able to do a lay up help your ability to wrestle. Ive yet to see the untrained fighter that can step into a ring and just get by on athleticism with someone that does have actual skills, any more than I could go play ncaa ball with my boxing skills.


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## jobo (Aug 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Sure there are.People learn to fight by...fighting. No martial training required.
> 
> Learning how to shoot 3 from the outside won't help you throw a solid punch though. Just being in shape, although helpful, wont make your awkward strikes less awkward, nor will being able to do a lay up help your ability to wrestle. Ive yet to see the untrained fighter that can step into a ring and just get by on athleticism with someone that does have actual skills, any more than I could go play ncaa ball with my boxing skills.



But they have no intention of stepping in a ring,so that's not really an argument against, are you really saying those 7ft Tall basket ball players couldNt handle an average bar fight ?


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## Martial D (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> But they have no intention of stepping in a ring,so that's not really an argument against, are you really saying those 7ft Tall basket ball players could handle an average bar fight ?


All 'a ring' represents is doing it at a higher level. Whether that comes from actual training or scrapping a lot doesn't matter too much, but those with a fighting skillset will generally outclass people without one 

I guess I've seen the physically disadvantaged old guy easilly handle the chiselled muscle bound young upstart one too many times.

And I've been both of those guys.


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I guess I've seen the physically disadvantaged old guy easilly handle the chiselled muscle bound young upstart one too many times.



"Old age and cunning will always beat youth and inexperience"...or something like that, lol.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well yes and no, if you want to build muscle to impress girls and play rugby, basket bascreenplay on a,soccer team with your mates, then giving that up to train ma is not an efficient use of time. No, if all your expecting to deal with is an occasional bar fight or a kick off in the taxi queue, just being in fairly good shape will take care of that.
> 
> If you live in a world of gangsta drug deals, then it may be a good idea, though dojo are not generally full of gangsta drug dealers, so even they don't seem to brother, just lift more weights



And the other thought I had. Ok there may  not be a heap of unstable martial artists out there. (I do know a few by the way) But there are a heap of unstable roided up neck tattoos wandering around.

And so I would want muscle plus something to deal with that.

I mean this is the sort of physique our local football team has.


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> "Old age and cunning will always beat youth and inexperience"...or something like that, lol.


Yeah but old age and inexperience gets its *** kicked by youth and skill .  or so I've heard .


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## LastGasp (Aug 31, 2018)

Steve said:


> Yeah but old age and inexperience gets its *** kicked by youth and skill .  or so I've heard .



You may have a point there.
Or maybe, old age can think around your skill, come up with something completely out of the box that you didn't expect..."where'd he go?!" lol


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## pdg (Aug 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I mean this is the sort of physique our local football team has.



They have funny shaped balls...


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## Anarax (Aug 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And the other thought I had. Ok there may  not be a heap of unstable martial artists out there. (I do know a few by the way) But there are a heap of unstable roided up neck tattoos wandering around.
> 
> And so I would want muscle plus something to deal with that.
> 
> I mean this is the sort of physique our local football team has.


Have you ever seen Top Gun?


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Have you ever seen Top Gun?



Yes..........?


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## Anarax (Sep 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yes..........?


It was a joke


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## FriedRice (Sep 1, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Fortunately, I can see beyond just the fighting side, to things MA can teach that are not taught in a way I like elsewhere.



"Beyond just the fighting side" = inferior training.

It's not bad, just a lower form of training compared to training as a fighter = highest form of training.....when it's time to prove it vs. an attacker/opponent.


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## FriedRice (Sep 1, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ok you handicapped kid scenario you used Bjj skills to deal with that then ?



Handicapped kids are usually screwed. Ever try training retarded kids or those with physical disabilities and/or both? It's hard as ****. It's interesting for a few weeks and you feel good about helping them, but then it turns into babysitting them while neglecting all the other, membership paying kids. And they still can't do techniques right.....imagine trying to teach them a bunch of complicated, flowery kata when they can't even throw a step jab well. 

There's a reason why criminals target old ladies, then old men, then women and the handicapped first.


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## LastGasp (Sep 1, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> "Beyond just the fighting side" = inferior training.
> 
> It's not bad, just a lower form of training compared to training as a fighter = highest form of training.....when it's time to prove it vs. an attacker/opponent.



Well, I'm curious to see what I could do. If nothing else, it makes fitness training more interesting. I'm never likely to need MA for self defence, that wouldn't be a good enough reason for me to dedicate a lot of time to it. I don't live in fear, life's too short. Much more likely to get killed taking a corner wrong on my bike!


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Well, I'm curious to see what I could do. If nothing else, it makes fitness training more interesting. I'm never likely to need MA for self defence, that wouldn't be a good enough reason for me to dedicate a lot of time to it. I don't live in fear, life's too short. Much more likely to get killed taking a corner wrong on my bike!



Out of curiosity, what bike do you have?


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## LastGasp (Sep 1, 2018)

Yamaha FZS1000 Fazer - modified  (FZ1 to you guys in the US). My 5th one of these (I stuffed the last one in a hedge, hence the back injury, lol), this the only one I got exactly how I want it.

Had a Triumph Street Triple for a year as well up till recently, but my license was at risk riding that hooligan, lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The first mistake is believing that skills that work in the ring, mat, or ring won't apply in a self defense situation. People actively avoid fighting arts because they delude themselves into thinking that learning how to actually fight isn't a useful skill, or that they're somehow more evolved than a cage fighter or a boxer.


Agreed. That's not the only reason people don't compete, but it's definitely one I've seen evidence of.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok so that rules out your mma, and boxing sugestion,
> 
> Or Peter who 25 and hitss the weights, and plays basket ball, he strong and fast, he can robustly defend himself against most people, why does he need to do boxing, when he could use the same time to get even stronger and faster with his existing sports,


he doesn't unless he wants to be better.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Last I checked, Yoga isn't a martial art.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if you're a muscular athletic male, probably not. If you're a scrawny little guy, or a female, I would highly recommend it.


Or unathletic, regardless of size. Or entirely inexperienced at fighting, again, regardless of size .


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> Some ??? very nearly All scrawny males can put on muscle and increase strengh, they may not reach the level of competition body builder, but that's not to say they cant be a lot bigger/ stronger than they are and quite possibly bigger and stronger than any attacker.
> 
> If they have some rare genetic condition that prevents muscle development Mma not going to help them much anyway


You never saw me in my teens and 20's . It would have taken a Herculean effort to get to anything resembling big . And I was athletic and active.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok you need to justify BETTER, Peter is attacked in a bar, by an over weight beer swilling monster, be used his superior athleticism to grab his attackers head and smash it repeated in to the bar, what would mma training have added to that situation ?


you are setting up a situation Peter can handle .What if he runs into one he can't? Fighting skill will help .Period.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> But that's the big lie, of self defence courses, there's are not simple techniques you can learn quickly that will neutralise a vastly physically superior opponents, first you need to close the gap physicaly, then you need to invest a fair amount of time, in learning and repeating your skills till they become ingrained,


Most I've seen don't make that claim. Many I see online do. I don't think it is. A fair generalization.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Most I've seen don't make that claim. Many I see online do. I don't think it is. A fair generalization.


my new.Kindle makes me type like @jobo.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Again I know of no High schools here that teach wrestling
> 
> And your saying if you do or have done wrestling then you will understand or get the concepts of the grappling arts?
> 
> Ok you handicapped kid scenario you used Bjj skills to deal with that then ?


I don't know if it has changed, but every HS in my area had a wrestling team when I was growing up .


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> my new.Kindle makes me type like @jobo.



Sort it out, I thought you'd been hacked


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know if it has changed, but every HS in my area had a wrestling team when I was growing up .



It's never really been a thing here, most have a football team, sometimes rugby or hockey - but anything else is few and far between.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

Steve said:


> Yeah but old age and inexperience gets its *** kicked by youth and skill .  or so I've heard .


So, cunning and skill beats old age and youth?


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So, cunning and skill beats old age and youth?


I think we have it.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2018)

The thought I have been having. Which I think flips people out the most is "How is your system performance based?"

Because self defence quite simply tend not to be.

And so the priorities change for focusing on performance to trying to focus on pretty much everything else. 

Which then seem to just become marketing strategies. 

And I think that is an actual mindset change. Which is weird.


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## FriedRice (Sep 1, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> Well, I'm curious to see what I could do. If nothing else, it makes fitness training more interesting. I'm never likely to need MA for self defence, that wouldn't be a good enough reason for me to dedicate a lot of time to it. I don't live in fear, life's too short. Much more likely to get killed taking a corner wrong on my bike!



Well you seem to fear getting punched in the face hard as apart of training. This thread is about self defense and what really works.  This discussion is about what works better or the best for real life attacks and not about "I need help losing 30 lbs off my giant butt".  

If you just want to go the inferior rout to help you lose your chub, then that's fine; which is why I did state that it wasn't bad. Training hard and serious is usually only for tougher and non-lazy people though.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The thought I have been having. Which I think flips people out the most is "How is your system performance based?"
> 
> Because self defence quite simply tend not to be.
> 
> ...



Next thought does performance based change the thought process.

So I train with a guy who is athletic and loves leg locks. I am grindy  and don't really bother.

Each of us have results with our methods but none really dominate. So we can have the argument without it being a linage war. But also can reality check each other.

Our system advances through the discoveries of the practitioners. Which means we can't rely or subscribe to dogma.

It is the difference from say being told about Muslims and actually getting to know one.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Well you seem to fear getting punched in the face hard as apart of training. This thread is about self defense and what really works.  This discussion is about what works better or the best for real life attacks and not about "I need help losing 30 lbs off my giant butt".
> 
> If you just want to go the inferior rout to help you lose your chub, then that's fine; which is why I did state that it wasn't bad. Training hard and serious is usually only for tougher and non-lazy people though.



Let's nice this thought up a bit because it is a good point.

There are going to be consistent methods that improve ability. That are unrelated to the individual.

Not wanting to use those methods does not change that they work consistently.

This is any activity.


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## richardhenry000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Probably because you're not a petite young female. Consider yourself fortunate. I have a daughter who is a petite young female in her late teens, and the stories she tells me about how men catcall her, follow her, and verbally abuse her on the street is quite frightening.
> 
> It's quite easy to see how things can escalate beyond simple verbal taunting and awkward stalking.


Look I'm 49 I lived in the inner city not in a good neighborhood because  I didn't have enough money to move anywhere else anyway I was attacked 3 times getting  off the light rail an lived through a home invasion  with a broken arm an rib anyway my point is things  happen when you don't  expect I was a army vet took hapkido kav maga  now kali I live in a great place  now maybe  I'll never need to fight again  but I'm in shape an get people  I dont get beat up every class maybe sweat but everyone needs that look at the health side as saving as many  as the fighting an if you need it you have it

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## FriedRice (Sep 2, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Let's nice this thought up a bit because it is a good point.
> 
> There are going to be consistent methods that improve ability. That are unrelated to the individual.
> 
> ...



Yes, just about anything related to combat, trained consistently will bring about an improvement that should help. But him being scared of actual fighting, to never train to fight, will result in him never achieving this highest level of being a fighter.

Or we can look at it another way....can a low level, local Pro MMA fighter who has 0 chances of ever fighting in Bellator (let alone the UFC), train kata and earn all the colored belts (w/o never having trained TMA?  Is it going to be easier or harder than what's he's trained so far in MMA?

There's a big reason why you mostly see women, old men and hot chicks in SD classes & TMA and rarely any of such in full MMA fighter's class.


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## FriedRice (Sep 2, 2018)

richardhenry000 said:


> Look I'm 49 I lived in the inner city not in a good neighborhood because  I didn't have enough money to move anywhere else anyway I was attacked 3 times getting  off the light rail an lived through a home invasion  with a broken arm an rib anyway my point is things  happen when you don't  expect I was a army vet took hapkido kav maga  now kali I live in a great place  now maybe  I'll never need to fight again  but I'm in shape an get people  I dont get beat up every class maybe sweat but everyone needs that look at the health side as saving as many  as the fighting an if you need it you have it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk



You're pretty old to be typing w/o punctuation marks, like today's 12 year olds though.


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## LastGasp (Sep 2, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Well you seem to fear getting punched in the face hard as apart of training. This thread is about self defense and what really works.  This discussion is about what works better or the best for real life attacks and not about "I need help losing 30 lbs off my giant butt".
> 
> If you just want to go the inferior rout to help you lose your chub, then that's fine; which is why I did state that it wasn't bad. Training hard and serious is usually only for tougher and non-lazy people though.



You have misinterpreted me because you don't understand the situation I am in. I don't fear being punched hard in the face. In the past, I have done sparring, and sparred with people who were considerably more advanced than me. I have been in street fights in the past. In both, I have taken hard knocks - I did not back down.

Well, I'm older now, and don't get into street fights anymore.
There is some fear, you are right with that much. But it has to do with my injured shoulder, which has not been tested within a fighting situation since it happened to me. But i am willing to put it to the test*.

I have taken harder knocks than the vast majority of martial artists have in a fight, and got back on my feet - and that getting back on my feet was a much longer, harder process than getting up after what most people experience even after a fight in which they take a severe beating. So I probably know much more about courage, and controlling fear, and certainly pain, than you do.

There are 'martial artists' here who seem to think that the only people with courage are martial artists, and the only way to conquer fear and pain is by fighting other people, whether it be in the street or in the ring. They are wrong. If you wish to live your life with such a narrow vision, that's fine by me. But it's a sad way to be.

*Part of the reason I am willing to put it to the test is that I have taken two heavy falls on it since, and whilst both times I cracked ribs, the shoulder survived without injury, so some of the fear regarding that has been mitigated.

PS: if you think you take hard knocks in MMA, try crashing a motorcycle into an oncoming car at a closing speed in excess of 120mph  And yes, I still ride, and ride fast.


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## LastGasp (Sep 2, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> There's a big reason why you mostly see.....hot chicks in SD classes & TMA and rarely any of such in full MMA fighter's class.



Sod MMA, I know where I want to train, lol.


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## jobo (Sep 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> my new.Kindle makes me type like @jobo.


Yes, I'm on a kindle as well,


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## _Simon_ (Sep 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes, I'm on a kindle as well,


Ahhhhhh, that explains it!!! To be honest I love the way everyone writes, everyone's got their own distinct style hehe. And approaches too!

@Kung Fu Wang and his lovely sequential lists, dot points, and cool strange training method videos.

@jobo with his stylised, uniquely spelled words, and commas where you wouldn't expect!

@Headhunter and his straight-talkin' ways with sometimes no need for full stops, nothing wrong with that!

@gpseymour with his rational discussion and great sense of humour.

@JR 137 with his honesty and cool stories.

@drop bear and his short, to the point answers (and cheekiness).

@Tez3 and her British humour.

@Buka with his warm kindheartedness, and always willing to welcome new people to the forum.

@Xue Sheng and his hilarious almost talking to himself dialogue (love it).

Me with my constantly starting a post with 'Ah..'.


There are so many more, but just something I admire about everyone XD


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## jobo (Sep 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ahhhhhh, that explains it!!! To be honest I love the way everyone writes, everyone's got their own distinct style hehe. And approaches too!
> 
> @Kung Fu Wang and his lovely sequential lists, dot points, and cool strange training method videos.
> 
> ...


I was blaming the browser, but having just occured to me its the actual kindle, ive turned off  auto predict and auto punctuation, not sure it will improve my spelling any, but random words and bizare use of commas may improve


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## pdg (Sep 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> I was blaming the browser, but having just occured to me its the actual kindle, ive turned off  auto predict and auto punctuation, not sure it will improve my spelling any, but random words and bizare use of commas may improve



Are you sure that's you?

It's almost written in English


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## _Simon_ (Sep 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> I was blaming the browser, but having just occured to me its the actual kindle, ive turned off  auto predict and auto punctuation, not sure it will improve my spelling any, but random words and bizare use of commas may improve



Ah okay, nah I quite enjoyed the style anyway, but there ya go, whatever suits [emoji14]


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## FriedRice (Sep 2, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> I have taken harder knocks than the vast majority of martial artists have in a fight, and got back on my feet - and that getting back on my feet was a much longer, harder process than getting up after what most people experience even after a fight in which they take a severe beating.



The vast majority of martial artists, are pretty phony, in my personal and very humble opinion 



> So I probably know much more about courage, and controlling fear, and certainly pain, than you do.



I doubt it as  you seem to be an untrained fighter and probably very clumsy, and I mean that in a nice way. 



> There are 'martial artists' here who seem to think that the only people with courage are martial artists, and the only way to conquer fear and pain is by fighting other people, whether it be in the street or in the ring. They are wrong. If you wish to live your life with such a narrow vision, that's fine by me. But it's a sad way to be.



Nah, you've only fought untrained & clumsy people in the streets and got beaten by them, it seems. That's nothing to be proud of.



> *Part of the reason I am willing to put it to the test is that I have taken two heavy falls on it since, and whilst both times I cracked ribs, the shoulder survived without injury, so some of the fear regarding that has been mitigated.
> 
> PS: if you think you take hard knocks in MMA, try crashing a motorcycle into an oncoming car at a closing speed in excess of 120mph  And yes, I still ride, and ride fast.



This is an argument? You crashed because you're not good at riding or something. But you didn't purposefully, intend on crashing that day at that exact moment. While walking into the ring/cage to fight another equally trained killer, is, and something that you're afraid to do. Fighters do this for fun.


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## Steve (Sep 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ahhhhhh, that explains it!!! To be honest I love the way everyone writes, everyone's got their own distinct style hehe. And approaches too!
> 
> @Kung Fu Wang and his lovely sequential lists, dot points, and cool strange training method videos.
> 
> ...


Ah!  That does explain it.


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## LastGasp (Sep 2, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> The vast majority of martial artists, are pretty phony, in my personal and very humble opinion
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It seems they also get their brains mashed, lol.


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## Hanzou (Sep 2, 2018)

richardhenry000 said:


> Look I'm 49 I lived in the inner city not in a good neighborhood because  I didn't have enough money to move anywhere else anyway I was attacked 3 times getting  off the light rail an lived through a home invasion  with a broken arm an rib anyway my point is things  happen when you don't  expect I was a army vet took hapkido kav maga  now kali I live in a great place  now maybe  I'll never need to fight again  but I'm in shape an get people  I dont get beat up every class maybe sweat but everyone needs that look at the health side as saving as many  as the fighting an if you need it you have it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk



I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2018)

richardhenry000 said:


> Look I'm 49 I lived in the inner city not in a good neighborhood because  I didn't have enough money to move anywhere else anyway I was attacked 3 times getting  off the light rail an lived through a home invasion  with a broken arm an rib anyway my point is things  happen when you don't  expect I was a army vet took hapkido kav maga  now kali I live in a great place  now maybe  I'll never need to fight again  but I'm in shape an get people  I dont get beat up every class maybe sweat but everyone needs that look at the health side as saving as many  as the fighting an if you need it you have it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk



Welcome to Martialtalk, Richard Henry.


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## Martial D (Sep 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> I was blaming the browser, but having just occured to me its the actual kindle, ive turned off auto predict and auto punctuation, not sure it will improve my spelling any, but random words and bizare use of commas may improve




Or even less bizarre;

I was blaming the browser but it just occurred to me its actually the kindle. I've turned off  auto predict and auto punctuation. I'm not sure it will improve my spelling any, but random words and bizarre use of commas may improve


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## _Simon_ (Sep 2, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Or even less bizarre;
> 
> I was blaming the browser but it just occurred to me its actually the kindle. I've turned off  auto predict and auto punctuation. I'm not sure it will improve my spelling any, but random words and bizarre use of commas may improve



*it's


[emoji106]


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## Deleted member 39746 (Sep 2, 2018)

A saying i heard which i quite like is:  "fighting is the art of improvisation"


Edit:  apart from that the only thing i can say is, something which you can learn quickly, which you can apply in most situations and will use in most and dont need to consistently train other wise it will be  forgotten, appeals to me given my reasons of interest.      (but that's pretty much been established anyway, just felt like a cop out not adding more substance to this message. )

Yet another edit:     I have noticed a lot of the sought after and regarded teachers for self defence have put them selves either on purpose or by chance in a job/position in which they can figure out what works at risk to themselves.   (or they spent some of their life being  a aggressive youth, so accumulate experience that way)    Most of them have varying thoughts about copying their actions to do it.     So that seems like it has a effect, if you tell people to not get into fights, to live a life of respect etc you wont accumulate actual experience in fighting another human to figure out what works.    Or you get put in prison to not spread the teachings to other people.             The question would be, how do you figure out what works if you don't put yourself in the position to test them in reality? 

(plus these martial linges had to have started somewhere, so some person or persons at some point decided to start fighting other people in various contexts to find out what works and to tell other people what they have found in doing it. )

Those are my ramblings on the matter anyway.


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## FriedRice (Sep 2, 2018)

LastGasp said:


> It seems they also get their brains mashed, lol.



Yeah this is why many people such as yourself can't handle it. And when an attack does happens in the street, by your own admission, you got the crap beaten out of you = you're not good at fighting. 

Oh and let's not forget your other admission of riding your motorcycle at 120+ MPH on public streets, endangering the lives of other people all around you; yet you're so worried about our brains mashed by training something that you're obviously afraid of.... that only endangers ourselves and not unwilling families of motorists, pedestrians, etc... in fiery crashes that you've at least admitted to causing, one?


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## FriedRice (Sep 2, 2018)

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martialtalk, Richard Henry.



You used more punctuation marks in a 5 word sentence, then he did, with like 50 words.


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## gucia6 (Sep 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well it's not at all dissimilar to a number of ma, but anyway a fairly advanced level of yoga, gives you Extreme strengh, so it will with our doubt help at self defence.
> 
> So big guys don't need ma, but scrawny guys do, wouldnt that suggest that scrawny guys may just as well spend their time becoming big guys


haha, this is good...
unfortunately I don't grow any more and gender (and genetics) stand in a way  to become big 
But hey, it does not stop me from exercising and getting stronger 





LastGasp said:


> Well, no, I don't mean literally _one_ technique - what I meant was a limited number of techniques, enough to give a range of options without confusing the student with over-complexity. Remember, I'm talking about initial training for the ready-use locker. What they are _most likely_ to be able to use with no prior experience (I have Hanzou's daughter in mind here, and others in that situation, learning something for the first time).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I can see that side too, lol. But again, what I mean is those techniques that the inexperienced _have best chance with _in the early stages of learning. Best place to hit to knock that knife from his hand, tips on applying a kick in the nether regions, that kind of thing, taught _*first*_. Of course you get better with practice and as you then begin to learn further techniques. But often, martial arts classes_ don't_ address those things first. Often, they don't come into a syllabus until much later.


I guess this depends on the school.
On my first class I was already taught on technics how to free myself from wrist grip or from being strangled the floor. Of course it does not mean I would be able to apply them immediately afterwards in real life


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## now disabled (Sep 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know if it has changed, but every HS in my area had a wrestling team when I was growing up .




Unfortunately High Schools over here are not like the ones state side as far as sports are concerned ... Schools here do do sports. High Schools here as well as colleges and universities are more looked on as learning establishments, Yes the ones in states are too but the ones stateside have a broader specturm than over here. I guess that why when sportsmen and women make it big time here they really are good as they will have had to do most of it through their own graft and maybe being lucky if they get spotted by a sport that has lottery funding, There ain't the high profile college sports that there are stateside, The High School stuff well that ummmm is usually down to what teachers are there and what they want to do if that makes sense, if there are teachers interested in Rugby (excluding the private schools as they all do) then Rugby will be pushed (kinda) (and that depends on which area of the UK ya live in which code they push lol as yes there is more than one lol) mostly it Football (soccer) and in summer it Cricket or possibly athletics (maybe )
Kids stateside if they are sports minded really don't know by in large how lucky they really are that way (ok I'm sure there are exceptions like everywhere)


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes, I'm on a kindle as well,


That explains it. That keyboard is utter crap. I loaded a new one to try it out, see if it's any better.

I'm certain this is somehow on-topic. Certain.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> I was blaming the browser, but having just occured to me its the actual kindle, ive turned off  auto predict and auto punctuation, not sure it will improve my spelling any, but random words and bizare use of commas may improve


The auto predict and auto correct are aggressively bad, as is how it inserts punctuation. On top of that, I'm used to an iPhone, so I keep hitting the period next to the spacebar when I mean to hit the spacebar.


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## kravmaga1 (Sep 22, 2018)

Thanks for the blog I came to know many things about martial art and it is true that having knowledge about martial art is not enough. One should do practice for being a master and to gain full knowledge of martial arts.


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## Saheim (Sep 25, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well possibly, but let's take sandra,a petite pretty girl who wants to walk to get car after dark, are you saying that she should let her self get beaten up twice a week, so she doesn't get beaten up , nether sandra n or I can see the logic in that



It is my belief that, unfortunately, Sandra is just out of luck.

People who would attack a woman generally have at least done experience with violence.  Where it was then fighting, victimizing others, our being victimized themselves, they've "been in the mix".  If Sandra hasn't AND is smaller and weaker than them, realistically there is no special quick and basic training that can prepare her to prevail.  Sure she can take some basics on getting kicking and eye gouging and it will edge her odds forward a wisker but barely.  I think if a girl trains a "reality based SD" in which she never gets punched in the face or thrown on her butt then the first time she dis get punched in the face or thrown on her butt, by someone who is much stronger and HAS been punched in the face, it will not end well for her.

If someone wants to survive violent attacks by people who are stronger AND have some experience, they have to put in the work.... Real work because they are already trying to overcome a heck of an off set.  Basically - in order for a woman to hold her own, even against the average guy, she has to be a hard core chick.

Sucks but there ain't no magic sauce.  Stronger people have a distinct advantage.  An advantage that CAN be overcome, but be honed skilled and str8 savage nature.

Companies have sold millions of dollars on exercise equipment that promises "results" with just 10 minutes a day, three days a week.  That would be nice, it would also be nice if a girl could defend herself against a male without having out on the blood sweat an tears.  

Handguns..... A girls best friend


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## Saheim (Sep 25, 2018)

Oops, double tap.  If a mod can delete, I'd appreciate it.


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## Hanzou (Sep 25, 2018)

Sort of what I was talking about earlier in the thread.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ahhhhhh, that explains it!!! To be honest I love the way everyone writes, everyone's got their own distinct style hehe. And approaches too!
> 
> @Kung Fu Wang and his lovely sequential lists, dot points, and cool strange training method videos.
> 
> ...


I don't have a style?


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## Saheim (Sep 25, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Sort of what I was talking about earlier in the thread.



Yep, good stuff right there!

I never hesitated to practice BJJ, with girls, because I know how important it is to them.  If someone is going to try to sexually assault them, it will most likely be a male and it will most likely involve wrestling around on the ground with them.  So I think it is so important for females to roll with males.

Likewise I enjoy rolling with bigger guys because (highly trained individuals aside) it ain't the folks smaller than me that I worry about going to the ground with.  It's the duse that has 60# on me.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 25, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I don't have a style?


Hehe, there were too many people to cover, there are more I'd love to list!

(@kempodisciple: posting with a warmth and caring nature, always willing to help and offer advice from experience, and general cheekiness  )


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2018)

Saheim said:


> Yep, good stuff right there!
> 
> I never hesitated to practice BJJ, with girls, because I know how important it is to them.  If someone is going to try to sexually assault them, it will most likely be a male and it will most likely involve wrestling around on the ground with them.  So I think it is so important for females to roll with males.
> 
> Likewise I enjoy rolling with bigger guys because (highly trained individuals aside) it ain't the folks smaller than me that I worry about going to the ground with.  It's the duse that has 60# on me.


There's no solution if you get KTFO (knocked the f*** out), but if you're training for self-defense, you should (must) have a solution if you get KFTD (knocked the f*** down). Some very basic groundwork is a minimum, IMO, and everything in that video can be incorporated into that level of groundwork.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 26, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I don't have a style?


yeah i wasnt on the list either.  but then again you cant say 
@hoshin1600 :    quite the pompous dikhead *^%*^%$*^%$*&^%&^%(&^.


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