# Adreline Burst, and seeing the intial attack? How do you deal with it?



## Corporal Hicks (Aug 2, 2004)

When your in a situation where somebody i.e. is walking towards you fast and threatening, and its obvious they are going to do something firstly what do you do? 

How do you deal with the sudden rush that you get? I seem to get when my body seems to go shaky and I feel I cannot do a kick becaues lack of balance if I lift my leg off the floor!

Also say if somebody is going to throw you the intial first punch how are you meant to react? You cannot foresee the punch so do 'you' strike first or wait for the punch in which to block?

Regards
Nick


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## Firona (Aug 2, 2004)

I have an uncommon ammount of experience with this because in my town there is nothing for people around my age to do but get drunk (doh!) This leads to a large ammount of physically and egotistically pumped up guys who have no capacity for rational thought. The best thing I find to do in this situation is to bare them to the floor. Not too hard, mind you, otherwise you have 'attacked' the person and then things get complicated. But generally when someone hasn't attacked you yet and they find themselves on the floor they reconsider quickly what they were doing. This works well for what you were talking about (not being able to lift your legs for example) because you don't really have to move much if they are charging you. Of course the person can get back up and try again but by that time the situation is clearly defined and hopefully you have snapped out of the old sticky-foot state.


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## 8253 (Aug 4, 2004)

If there is enough time to see the person walking toward me in a threatening manner, i will usually start to control my breathing.  Also combat breathing, will help with the adreneline rush and helps the sluggish feeling that goes along with it.

As for someone trying to hit me.  If i have the time to strike them before their punch lands then I will definatly hit first.  If there isnt enough time then I will block and counter.  Besides they have attacked you from the moment that they raised their hand, fist, or foot to a striking position.


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## Trent (Aug 9, 2004)

What I will do to someone approaching me will strictly depend upon the circumstances, individual and situation as a whole.  Very difficult to answer your question as phrased.

In dealing with the adrenaline rush, I find that either through direct experience (interesting life) or scenario training to be the best way to learn how to deal with getting a handle on the internal reactions of your body.  

Hard sparring sessions are a decent way to find out that getting hit usually isn't that big of a deal.  But, on the street with numerous uknown factors it could be fatal as there are no controls.  Hence, scenario training; schools usually find a willing and enthusiastic class once the initial shock wears off.  Make it voluntary as it can be harsh to the mentally delicate.

It needs to be run by someone who has had an "interesting life" for proper realism and situational training.  Most of us don't go talking about it to very many folks, but some do try to use the knowledge to help others.


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## Tydive (Aug 22, 2004)

First thing is to evaluate the situation and threat level. Can you escape? How many & what kind of attackers, is it bluff or real etc... Will others help you or the attacker? 

Next, center yourself, take slow deep breaths, relax your body and mind. Now look again at the situation, evaluate the state of your opponent, how he/she moves, talks, dresses, etc... is he/she sweating? intoxicated? Angry? If your focus is on what the opponent is doing then you have a much better chance of dealing with it. Don't bother with planning, you train all the time in order to make your reactions automatic. Trust yourself to do what is right. Practice is for learning, combat is for application of what you know.

Keep your head positive, smile, it will help you relax. Try to talk the person down, you can do this with self deprecating remarks, or agreeing with the attacker, keep your voice soft and even, etc... the idea is to defuse it before it happens. Do NOT react to the persons negative energy. If you stay relaxed (at least outwardly) they will be very reluctant to attack.

People are wired for flight/fight, if you present neither then you throw them off balance.

As to not knowing where the attack will come from... you need to spar, full contact with somebody who has been on the street and has good control. Almost everybody telegraphs the attack, *if you keep proper* *distance* you will have plenty of time to deal with the attack. Remember, 90%+ pull back, then go forward. I like to attack as soon as they pull back (attacking into the preperation), because then I hit first, while hopefully witnesses will see that the other person "started it".

It all comes down to being centered. Keep your center and you are in control. So to practice, go out and stay calm on a roller coaster or skydiving or jump off a high dive or make a public speach etc... anything that scares you. Now while doing that thing, DO NOT THINK ABOUT OUTCOME. Just experience exactly what is happening right then.

Peter Ralston has a great book "*Cheng Hsin: The Principles of Effortless Power" *I highly recommend. Also his Reflections on being is cool. You also may want to try some Aikido to help you "see" the persons intent.


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## OC Kid (Aug 23, 2004)

First you have to determine whether the person walking torwards you wants to do you harm or is just P.O.'d cuz his wife yelled at him. I think it is instinctive and learned through experiance. 

If a person throws the first strike then its basically block and counter. After I started training in MA when someone tries to hit me (untrained on the street) It looks like its coming at me in slow motion. But like Dan Anderson says in his book "American Freestyle Karate a Guide to Sparring" "The action dictates the response" I think that is a very true true statement that can be used in all phases of life.


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## Paul Genge (Aug 26, 2004)

A good training drill for when someone is face to face with you is this.  Have your partner stand facing you in anyway they want.  Look at the way they are stood and see what strikes they can use.  Examples are if their weight is on the front leg they can only kick with the rear leg without weight change.  If they do kick with a rear leg it will either be a straight kick or a round kick from the outside.  (They can't kick from the inside because their other leg will get in the way.) Depending on where the hands are held they will only come at you from certain directions.

Having got a grip of this concept look for the position to move to where you are safe.  This is a position where none of the angles of attack meet. When you think you have got that right get them to attack how they like from that position and you move to where you feel safe.  If you have got it right great try again with a different stance.  

Do this drill slow to start off with and become confident in your positioning before you speed it up.  

This is one of many training drills from Systema a Russian Martial Art taught to their millitary.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 26, 2004)

We've been taught that the first thing to do is to pick up your hands in a non-threatening position and to adjust your feet so you won't get knocked over.Yes, I've been in the situation of someone running at me angrily--more than once.  I did exactly what I was taught, and no one ever threw a punch.


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## DeLamar.J (Aug 27, 2004)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> When your in a situation where somebody i.e. is walking towards you fast and threatening, and its obvious they are going to do something firstly what do you do?
> 
> How do you deal with the sudden rush that you get? I seem to get when my body seems to go shaky and I feel I cannot do a kick becaues lack of balance if I lift my leg off the floor!
> 
> ...


You have to do what comes natural, if your not feeling comfortable kicking, then do NOT throw a kick in a real fight, just keep practicing them until they come natural. They best thing to do in a situation is just relax, and react.

Me and my training partner used to do this drill all the time that really improved our reflexes. We would carry around this rubber stress ball, and when we thought the other one was not expecting it, we would throw it a each others head. After a while we would react very quickly and catch the ball, we would also throw a back hand at each others face when least expected. Eventually we were blocking it and catching the ball 90 % of the time, and slowly improving from there as the months went by.
Sometimes I would be expecting him to throw the ball or a punch, and would watch him closely, waiting for the moment so I could rub it in when I blocked his attack, and I found that when I was not expecting it, I would react much much faster and with better results because I was relaxed.


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## Flatlander (Aug 27, 2004)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Me and my training partner used to do this drill all the time that really improved our reflexes. We would carry around this rubber stress ball, and when we thought the other one was not expecting it, we would throw it a each others head. After a while we would react very quickly and catch the ball, we would also throw a back hand at each others face when least expected. Eventually we were blocking it and catching the ball 90 % of the time, and slowly improving from there as the months went by.
> Sometimes I would be expecting him to throw the ball or a punch, and would watch him closely, waiting for the moment so I could rub it in when I blocked his attack, and I found that when I was not expecting it, I would react much much faster and with better results because I was relaxed.


James, this is nice.  I like it.  Not for everyone, but I dig it.  Good stuff.


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## Zujitsuka (Aug 30, 2004)

As has been mentioned, awareness is the best defense.  I do not think that most fine motor skills probably cannot be used effectively in combat.  When adrenaline hits your bloodstream, you develop tunnel vision and your peripheral vision (which best detects movement) is compromised.  Also, we naturally flinch - become tense.  Just keep it simple with gross motor skills.  I've never attended a RMCAT course, but I like what Richard Dimitri and Tony Blauer have to say about fighting when adrenaline is dumped into your system.

I've been attacked twice in the last 15 years.  I'm generally pretty good at avoiding conflicts.  Even though I have a great social life and go to bars and such from time to time, I don't go to the spots that attract troublemakers.  Both attacks came from mentally disturbed people in midtown Manhattan.  I tried to avoid them and when I couldn't I tried to reason with them to know avail.  They both tried to throw bottles at me.

The first guy got dropped by a harai goshi (sweeping hip throw).  This guy really got his face busted up.  He hit the deck with his face.  The other guy just hit the deck and got up staggering and cursing.

After both instances I did my Olympic sprinter imitation.

For those of you who don't know what a sweeping hip throw looks like, click on the link below.  Practice this throw regularly as it will serve you well.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/haraigoshi.htm


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## Han-Mi (Aug 30, 2004)

It is strange, I have been in and out of that state so many times that I can actually go into it on my own.  Actually, I went through a period recently where I started slipping into it, I was not sleeping right and I was just off. I don't know how it happened, but it was weird. 
Anyway, the only way to stop that shaky feeling is to get your adrenaline rush on purpose, over and over again. It is kinda like people who know they are dreaming, they actually remember their dreams better because they are able to change their state of mind at will. The adrenaline rush is a new state of mind, people often don't remember what happened in a fight because they are out of their normal state of mind, But if you go into the state enough times you actually begin to remember what happens and eventually you can control it completely.
Try doing something that you would consider extrems, that will get your adrenaline pumping and you can practice keepin your mind and body under your own control.  After I got a good handle on this I went into a couple kickboxing matches, I can remember everything that happened, and that's because I was in control of myself, instead of the adrenaline being in control.

I hope you get the gist, I'm kinda in a hurry so I'm rushing. If I can find my old psych notes on the subject, I will post something about the state of mind stuff.


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## MisterMike (Aug 31, 2004)

I'm not sure on how you should deal with it, but preparing for it through training may be a better approach.

The person on the street may only plan to throw that right hand punch you've been trained to handle for the past 5 years or however long, but on the mat under safe conditions, the only thing that may be missing is the life/death reality and the uncertainty of which attack.

Freefighting or sparring is probably the next best thing to prepare for what you are asking. Even this is controlled but alas, it's probably going to take some "outside influence" to cure somebody of the jitters.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 31, 2004)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> When your in a situation where somebody i.e. is walking towards you fast and threatening, and its obvious they are going to do something firstly what do you do?
> 
> How do you deal with the sudden rush that you get? I seem to get when my body seems to go shaky and I feel I cannot do a kick becaues lack of balance if I lift my leg off the floor!
> 
> ...



Before he died Bruce Lee had a controversial method added to his fighting regime... strike first to anyone who was acting threateningly to him (or others).  Basically he taught that many people inadvertedly telegraph their intentions/punches/kicks/whatever! He obviously became an expert in reading this form of "non-verbal" communication and thus became the one who threw the first punch and still called it self-defense. This, presumably, would put an end to many a fight that could turn against you or anyone else. It isn't sporting, but then, what (real) fight ever is? 
As an expert myself in non-verbal communication, I learned to know when a guy is serious about hitting me or just running off at the mouth. Talking recently with an ex-convict, he agreed with me when I stated that "loud-mouths" are basically telegraphing their *fear* and thus are really just trying to intimidate. Even the big guys. It's the quiet ones you need to really watch out for.
Only twice in my life have I ever thrown a "first-punch". I didn't and still don't like the idea because of the nagging doubt in the back of my mind that I could've been wrong and the guy was just running off at the mouth. Also because of the experience of seeing people get really madder than they intended to be because they were hit, when all they intended to do was just talk the talk. Face it, someone/anyone hits you (serously, ...sparring, kata's and tourney's don't count) you're gonna get mad. How you react, how you act out that anger... is up to you. Some folks just plain lose it and you're in a fight whether you wanted to be or not. 
Hitting a person first and following up/through on it might defuse a painful situation for you. It at least might, just might make the other person think twice before starting any crap with you again. 
I've experienced the andrenial rush and the twisting of the guts when I know for sure that a potential situation is immenent. I've trained long and hard to get over this through brain-training and practicing my art(s). There are some guys I just would NOT want to get into it with and others that I don't want to because I know I could seriously hurt them. ... I don't like hurting people anymore, for _whatever_ reason, which is why I'll be seeking further training in a "soft-MA" rather hard. If I can subdue them long enough to make them realize that they will get hurt, then perhaps (an outside chance) that they'll calm down and rationalize. If not then pop goes the weasel. 
Fortunately I live in environment(s) that these type of confrontations don't occur too often, or at all. Unfortunately, I've still the mean-ness from my younger days to seriously hurt someone who does try to start something. The difference is that I won't like it like I used to before. 
 :asian:


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## Paul Genge (Aug 31, 2004)

Your spot on about the loud mouths telegraphing their own fear.  The person who is the most frightened is usually the one who causes everyone else to be frightened by their behaviour.  Knowing this fact will let you control your fear and give you some interesting ways to psyc out your opponent.  On this subject I would recommend books by Geoff Thompson.

It is common to see people armed with weapons stood brandishing them at an opponent.  If you look at what they are doing they are using it as a barrier between them and the threat.  (They are hiding behind the weapon.)  The danger is that they will perceive one of your movements as a threat and lash out automatically or that the peer presure of their friends or their confidence will increase to a point where they feel they have to attack.  In this situation smooth movements and psycological distractions work better than fast jerky movements.  The reason is that the opponents mind will be on a hair trigger because they are frightened and have already made the decission that violence will save them.  Your movements will only push them over the edge.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## AnimEdge (Sep 5, 2004)

I am a calm person, it is highly rare of me to get angry to the point of seeing "red" to get that form of adrenalin, i might keep my self from doing this becouse i know the angry kind of adrenlin makes you lose your control over youself

Now i have never been in a fighting situation to where i did not feel that i had a good amount of control over it at lest in the ones that actually ending in a fight, i allways try to keep my self calm and to where i think adrenalin can go two ways, it can do into a controlled form and a beserker form, a berserker form is like when some one is so pissed they loss all self control and generaly start swinging, this is bad if the MA is doing this becouse all is techniuqes are all ou the window, i think this is good for a MA to get the oppinit to be come "Beserk" becouse then his attacks can become obviouse but sence he is fuled with adreniline, if he hits you chances are he will hit you really hard 
Now the controlled one is what a focused MA or a focused anyone will get to
it is where it isnt channled to anger and power but become more of a defence type, at lest thats what it does with me, to where it felt like i could take any hit without hurting, know dont get me wrong, it hurted a lot after the fight but wail in the fight i felt like and did take hits without flenticing

Now like i said that is when i felt like i had a good amount of control in the situation, now (before i started MA) sometimes for whatever reason at school or wherever some one will come up to you pissed off about something out of know where and thus catches me off guard meaning that i have little or no control over the situation, and thats where i would feel the Flight or Fight feeling, now generaly i feel that shaking feeling you mentioned and my general goal(like i said before i was a MA) would be to defuse it, find out why he is pissed and try to take some control that way, see why he is pissed and find a way to fix it, most of the time that works, usally becouse they dont want to fight unless provokes and sence i tryed to find out the cause and solve it i havnt yet(in the situation that i can remeber) been in a fight like that, i but i would remeber feeling manly my legs tensing up and a slight shake before and after the confertation. 
Now that i study MA chances are i wont feel that as bad and still my main consern is to defuse the situation, but know i know more and have more skill i would be better prepaid for anything thus by default giving me some control over the situation making me less nurvouse and more in control and ready(i havnt had a confrentation like thise sence i started).

Now like you said that you just turned around or whatever and some one is coming to you with the intent of starting something. I would first see if its some one i know and the situation i am in, if it is some one i know i would be defencive but chances are wont feel the adrenline untill somethings tarts to happin, if i dont know this person i would first see if i am sure it is me he is after and then i would take a guarded stance, basicly a fighting stance with my front slughty towards him with my hands down and start assesing the situation: am i being surrounded, are there more of them? does he have or could have a weapon? ect ect but still i wouldnt feel teh adrenlen untill something starts to happen he yells at me or he starts swinning but i would try and make my self aware of the surrondings and his actions.


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## JDenz (Sep 19, 2004)

I blast them right out of the gate.  I would try to not let them get a shot off.  No one is perfect and it is easy enough to miss a block and take one in the noogin it is alot easier to hit someone else first then stop there attack.  That is of course unless there are a friend or someone else that you know.


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## CMack11 (Sep 21, 2004)

"Talking recently with an ex-convict, he agreed with me when I stated that "loud-mouths" are basically telegraphing their fear and thus are really just trying to intimidate. Even the big guys. It's the quiet ones you need to really watch out for."

Those are very true words.  Most conflicts I've ever been in w/ loudmouths, etc. just ended up being a big talk-fest.  When they are quiet, then it's time to be worried...


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## Fool Wolf (Sep 23, 2004)

Great question.  The effects you are talking about are one of the things that seperate real combat from the sport or training.  All the kata in the world won't teach you how to deal with it, nor the ran dori.  One thing you can do is work hard on the basics of your system, in the military we use the phrase KISS, (keep it simple stupid).  The intricacy of the technique or plan is directly proportional to the chance it will fail.  The feeling is the most important thing, " no plan survives first contact with the enemy".  Flexibility is key.

regards
FW


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## ThatWasAKick (Sep 29, 2004)

Great answers here.  I especially enjoyed the "evaluate the situation..." response and the one about telegraphing by "drawing back."  I've learned some things.
But reading this has brought two questions to my mind:

1.  The first time I was physically threatened I literally froze in fear.  No flight.  No fight.  Just froze.  The second time I got dropped.  After those humiliating experiences I've never felt adrenaline again (until afterwards when the hands start shaking).  I just get a kind of calm, relaxed, almost... eager... feeling.  So I've always wondered if the adrenaline rush is something people normally get over after a fight or two, or if I have a couple bubbles out of plumb.

2.   (I hope this isn't off topic) AnimEdge mentioned "seeing red."  Is it really possible for someone to get so angry that they literally "see red?"  And is it true that they actually don't know what they're doing and don't remember afterwards?  Or is that an excuse for bad behavior?


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## Adept (Nov 7, 2004)

ThatWasAKick said:
			
		

> 1. So I've always wondered if the adrenaline rush is something people normally get over after a fight or two, or if I have a couple bubbles out of plumb.


 It's a physiological condition you can learn how to minimise and control. It's basically fear. Fear is like fire. A little keeps you alive, too much will kill you. Adrenaline helps your to ignore pain, and to move faster and with more power than you might otherwise. Just dont forget to think. As you have learned from your previous two experiences, one of the most important things in a fight is keeping cool. Retaining the presence of mind to act and react to the situation as it unfolds. The eager feeling you experience is a by-product of the adrenaline, which is okay. Just dont let it get control over your actions.



> 2. (I hope this isn't off topic) AnimEdge mentioned "seeing red." Is it really possible for someone to get so angry that they literally "see red?"


 In hindsight, there are times when I felt like everything had gone into a red haze. I can still remember what I was doing, but my control had evaporated, my fear of the consequences of my actions so minimised that I could have done just about anything with no consideration for the future. It is a scary situation to realise you were in.


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## Darksoul (Nov 7, 2004)

-A little off topic, but I go as often as possible to the local goth club in Rochester. 169 North Chestnut Street if anybody is ever interested;-) Anyways, we have some big guys at the club, the 'regulars' if you will. The club has a loyal group of patrons who will take care of any incident, i.e. fighting. And you can easily recognize the regulars. But there is also a group of us there who are so obvious, hehe. When the regulars take the frontal assault, we take the back door. Yes, learn who to watch out for. Also, if anyone has any questions about goths feel free to pm me. Its been years since I was in a fight, and then I never saw the guy coming, suckered punched me to the side of my head. Of course, then he ran down the stairs and out the door. Whatever.


A---)


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## Suntail (Nov 7, 2004)

Here's my two cents.  I think everyone else has said the really important stuff, and I loved what AnimEdge said about control and beserk.  It was said, a little more poetically, in Ender's Game:  "Ender's anger was cold, and he could use it.  Bonzo's was hot, and so it used him."

I would make sure that they were going to throw a punch before I did anything.  That dosen't mean they have to land it.  If not for ethical reasons, then legal reasons.   Then probably a blood choke, depending on how much I don't like them.  Or maybe a suitcase hold, or a gate punch, or a spiral lock, ...  so many options.   :uhyeah: 

I think it takes a while to get used to adrenaline, so try two things before a sparring match.   Smile and think "happy" thoughts.  Smiling confuses people, plus it makes them think you know something they don't, or that you're crazy.  Thinking "happy" thoughts releases go instead of adrenaline.  Very similar but a little different. On top of that it helps you keep a level head.

Last thing (this post) "Every situation is a multiple opponent situation, unless proven otherwise."  Or so I'm told.  Keep your eyes open.

I apologize for any preachy-ness in this post, forgive me, I'm young.


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