# Appreciating Good Kata/Hyung regardless of Style



## JWLuiza (Sep 12, 2007)

Let us start discussion with Sochin (Shotakan Version)

Most of use TSD people don't learn this, unless we go out of our way to pick up outside forms (I've pulled in Unsu, Nijyushiho, and Gojushiho Dai).






Now while the mechanics are different than a SBD guy, or JT the Ninja's leg pick ups, I doubt there can be much debate about the quality of this kata?


----------



## Muwubu16858 (Sep 12, 2007)

I believe that's one style of sochin, probably Shotokan. the karate forms I use are from Shitoryu, and Sochin is different in that sect.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 12, 2007)

Muwubu16858 said:


> I believe that's one style of sochin, probably Shotokan. the karate forms I use are from Shitoryu, and Sochin is different in that sect.


Yes, it is probably a bastardization made by Funakoshi's son from some techniques from the Shito-Ryu Sochin.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 13, 2007)

Wow cool stuff. His side kicks were a bit awkward (he kicked from the ground instead of picking up his knee first -- maybe Shotokan does that?), but the rest of the form was _intense_. I'd love to know what the application for the combo high/low block is.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 13, 2007)

Wow.  Beautiful.  Water, fire, earth.  He had it all.


----------



## Chizikunbo (Sep 13, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Let us start discussion with Sochin (Shotakan Version)
> 
> Most of use TSD people don't learn this, unless we go out of our way to pick up outside forms (I've pulled in Unsu, Nijyushiho, and Gojushiho Dai).
> 
> ...



Unsu is in the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan syllabus, Nijushiho is called Ee Ship Sa Bu in Korean and is taught by several people. Gojushiho is Oh Ship Sa Bu in Korean, and has been in many TSD curriculums over the years as required material for  yukdan (6th dan) along with Sa Oon hyung (Jion).


----------



## Muwubu16858 (Sep 13, 2007)

> Unsu is in the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan syllabus, Nijushiho is called Ee Ship Sa Bu in Korean and is taught by several people. Gojushiho is Oh Ship Sa Bu in Korean, and has been in many TSD curriculums over the years as required material for yukdan (6th dan) along with Sa Oon hyung (Jion).


 
As far as my teacher tells me, Hwang Kee learned Unsu, or as it's pronounced in korean, Woon Soo, along with the other Okinawan forms, pyung ahn etc. It was dropped early on like many forms. I believe Hwang Hyun Chul may know it too, but never taught it either, since his father began introducing his own hyung.

I've never heard that pronounciation of Jion. As far as I know, *&#24904;&#38899;*, the kanji(hanja) used by Shitoryu for Jion, is pronounced *&#51088;&#51020; *in Korea, or Ja Eum. Which hanja does Mi Guk Kwan use, Chizikunbo?


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 13, 2007)

Chizikunbo said:


> Unsu is in the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan syllabus, Nijushiho is called Ee Ship Sa Bu in Korean and is taught by several people. Gojushiho is Oh Ship Sa Bu in Korean, and has been in many TSD curriculums over the years as required material for  yukdan (6th dan) along with Sa Oon hyung (Jion).


The Oh Sip Sa Bu hyung is around.  Ee Sip Sa Bo is rare, and AFAIK MGK is the only TSD group doing Unsu.  More importantly, korean versions are hard to find but the japanese versions are ubiquitous.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 13, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Wow cool stuff. His side kicks were a bit awkward (he kicked from the ground instead of picking up his knee first -- maybe Shotokan does that?), but the rest of the form was _intense_. I'd love to know what the application for the combo high/low block is.


THere are two sidekicks in Shotokan.  He was technically correct, if not appeasing to the sensibilities of a Korean stylist with only the thrust kick in their syllabus.


----------



## Chizikunbo (Sep 13, 2007)

Muwubu16858 said:


> As far as my teacher tells me, Hwang Kee learned Unsu, or as it's pronounced in korean, Woon Soo, along with the other Okinawan forms, pyung ahn etc. It was dropped early on like many forms. I believe Hwang Hyun Chul may know it too, but never taught it either, since his father began introducing his own hyung.
> 
> I've never heard that pronounciation of Jion. As far as I know, *&#24904;&#38899;*, the kanji(hanja) used by Shitoryu for Jion, is pronounced *&#51088;&#51020; *in Korea, or Ja Eum. Which hanja does Mi Guk Kwan use, Chizikunbo?



Hello, please call me Josh. Hwang Kee KJN did indeed leanr many Okinawan forms (mostly from books on Japanese Karate, and some interaction with other Kwan leaders who studied in Japan)...As far as the pronunciation of Jion, the hanja is the same, as is the Hangul, but to romanization differs...its alot like the Kempo vs. Kenpo issue. For instance there is only a slight variation from SA to JA, the position of the tounge in the mouth is very similar (as with making the "n" and "m" sounds). EU makes the OOH sound either way you spell it...then we are confronted with the N vs. M usage...which is unique because the correct sound is more of a mix of the two like mN...we dont really have it in our language, but the Altaic family of languages does. Either way were talking about the same form ;-)

--josh


----------



## Chizikunbo (Sep 13, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> The Oh Sip Sa Bu hyung is around.  Ee Sip Sa Bo is rare, and AFAIK MGK is the only TSD group doing Unsu.  More importantly, korean versions are hard to find but the japanese versions are ubiquitous.



Actually several folks (not related to the MGK) use Unsu...but call it as Muwubu brought out WOON SOO...it is considered a classical TSD hyung...and it about as common as Ee Ship Sa Bu...it really just depends.

take care,
--josh


----------



## Kacey (Sep 13, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Now while the mechanics are different than a SBD guy, or JT the Ninja's leg pick ups, I doubt there can be much debate about the quality of this kata?


Well, he demonstrated balance, focus, control, consistency, and fluidity - which, despite having never seen this kata before, tells me that he is an accomplished MAist in his particular style - thanks for sharing this video!


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 13, 2007)

Here is some interesting videos:  






SBD Pyong Ahn Chodan





Pinan Shodan (Pyong Ahn Ee Dan)

Who would you score higher and why?


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 13, 2007)

And:


----------



## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 14, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> THere are two sidekicks in Shotokan.  He was technically correct, if not appeasing to the sensibilities of a Korean stylist with only the thrust kick in their syllabus.



That's as I suspected, since the rest of his technique was so purposeful and accurate. I'd still like to know about the double-block thing, though.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 14, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> That's as I suspected, since the rest of his technique was so purposeful and accurate. I'd still like to know about the double-block thing, though.


Go ask on the Shotokan/Karate board 

What about the Pinan videos.  I think I'd vote the orange belt higher than the blackbelt because of intensity and purpose of movement.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 14, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Go ask on the Shotokan/Karate board
> 
> What about the Pinan videos.  I think I'd vote the orange belt higher than the blackbelt because of intensity and purpose of movement.



If you mean the orange belt vs. the first black belt, I see your point. Not a good comparison, though, since in TSD (and SBD, apparently) pinan shodan is equivalent to pyung ahn ee dan. The black belt doing pinan nidan, though, really impressed me. He had a lot of snap, especially on his high blocks, even though they were executed differently to me. Interesting that for him, the first move is a downward backfist/hammerfist (blurry video), instead of a low block.


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 26, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Here is some interesting videos:





JWLuiza said:


> http://youtube.com/watch?v=oi5cyQzpdZk
> SBD Pyong Ahn Chodan
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=yfC8i5LcSKw
> ...


 
John,
This is an unfair match up
The Shotokan practitioner is a shodan, the SBD guy is an 8th gyup. The difference in quality clearly reflects the difference in experience.

The SBD guy has a great deal of extra movement in his execution that needs to be smoothed out over time, and most likely will be if he is a student of Damon Kenyons.

The Shotokan practitioner had much smoother movement and better timing, but based on the way Shotokan is taught ( by those of the JKA), this practitioner needs to work on deeper stances.

Just my opinion


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 26, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Wow cool stuff. His side kicks were a bit awkward (he kicked from the ground instead of picking up his knee first -- maybe Shotokan does that?), but the rest of the form was _intense_. I'd love to know what the application for the combo high/low block is.


 
JT,
Watch this video clip again, but this time imagine the opponent that he is fighting is attacking him with a side kick like those thrown in TSD as he executes those side kicks,. Imagine his knee (on the chambering movement) deflecting the incoming sidekick (at the ankle) upward and his foot following its trajectory line into the opponents groin or inner thigh.

This is one of several applications taught in Okinawan and Japanese systems for this style of side kick.

This is not an application for Korean or Japanese tournament usage, but is some Okinawan systems, groin is a legal target and this technique is used quite successfully. I know this because I began my training in Isshinryu and we used this application on a regular basis. 

Try it with a training partner and let us know what you think


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 26, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Let us start discussion with Sochin (Shotakan Version)
> 
> Most of use TSD people don't learn this, unless we go out of our way to pick up outside forms (I've pulled in Unsu, Nijyushiho, and Gojushiho Dai).
> 
> ...


 

John,
I received a video tape of a highly respected Japanese competitor in Japan performing Sochin from my Shotokan instructor, the late OSensei Jame V. Morrone, Jr.

(If you would like a copy, send me your mailing info and I will make you a copy)​ 
OSensei Morrones dojo uses Sochin as the official demonstration kata for the dojo. I have seen them perform it many times. This kata is great for teaching us how to Root ourselves to the ground and deliver incredibly powerful techniques.

For all of the kata that you mentioned here that are also performed in TSD, the main differences in execution, as I have seen it over my history training in both systems is the understanding of and usage of stances in the hyung/kata.

Take Seisan (as in TSD) vs. Hengetsu (in Shotkan). The same hyung/kata, but in Shotokan the stance is so distinct and teaches such great lessons in structure that it is actually named after the kata and learning this stance and understanding the muscle expansion and contraction in coincidence with the foot placement is as important, if not more important than anything else taught in this kata. I have not met any TSD practitioner from any association that has ever known anything about this stance, or that there is anything about the execution or purpose of this stance worth noting.

There is much for TSD practitioners to become aware of with these hyung/kata, as these principles were never introduced by KJN Hwang Kee. I learned them directly from Shotokan and Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu instructors.

These principles and philosophies of movement make all of the difference between being able to apply what you are learning in hyung/kata training or simply using them for physical exercise

When you are watching video clips of practitioners of this level, pay close attention to the foundation of every technique. Note the foot positions, the angle of the hips and shoulders, the tension in the legs during the execution of the techniques and the explosive movements of the legs as the practitioner transitions from stance to stance.

Sochin is an excellent kata to study in order to establish the understanding of all of these principle. You chose a great video clip here and a great thread topic to discuss


*TANG SOO!!!*


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 26, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> That's as I suspected, since the rest of his technique was so purposeful and accurate. I'd still like to know about the double-block thing, though.


 
JT,
Most practitioners see this as a double block just as you have

This technique is widely used in many of the hyung in TSD. 

1) Get a partner. 

2) Challenge each other in a front stance with your right legs in the rear. 

3) Have your partner execute a front kick to your chest. Using what you see as the preparation for the double block, (with your left hand) deflect the incoming kick to upward and to your right side above the outside of your bicep. 

4) Capture his leg at the ankle with the inside of your right arm, trapping the ankle between your bicep and radial bone.

5) Simultaneously, use the left hand to strike (Hadan Mahk Kee) into his inner thigh or his hip socket. 

Be careful as you execute this application to not damage his knee. If you perform this application with full speed and expansion of your arms and chest, you can cause his knee to bend sideways; damaging the medial region of the knee joint.

If you execute this application and slow down at the end of the movement, at the point that your left hand makes contact with his inner thigh or hip socket, drop into a deeper stance and this becomes a safe and easy take-down technique and makes for a good demonstration.


Let us know how it works for you


----------



## Lynne (Sep 26, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Here is some interesting videos:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I would score the SBD (orange belt) higher.  He had explosiveness in his moves.  His stances appeared to be rooted well.

The second person (black belt) really flowed between movements but didn't have explosiveness and seemed blase. 

I'm just learning the five elements and am a newbie though...


----------



## Victor Smith (Sep 26, 2007)

Master Jay, 

In that we&#8217;re talking about a style kata variations I&#8217;d like to offer a few comments.

Regarding the video 



 Pinan Shodan (Pyong Ahn Ee Dan)  Where you state &#8221; The Shotokan practitioner had much smoother movement and better timing, but based on the way Shotokan is taught ( by those of the JKA), this practitioner needs to work on deeper stances.&#8221;

This is not a Shotokan style kata. In Shotokan Pinan Shodan would be Heian NiDan. I&#8217;m pretty sure what is being shown is a variant of Shito Ryu
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AnQ7uc_H7tc&mode=related&search=

I don&#8217;t disagree that the person has a way to go, just that the Shito Ryu stances are not as deep as their Shotokan neighbors would do.

I also find your thoughts on Hangetsu Dachi interesting. The original Seisan dachi from the Okinawan (Shorin) origins do not resemble what the JKA turned the stances into. While there are many Seisan variants, even the rough grouping Shorin, Goju, Uehci, does not begin to cover the many variations time brought to the form&#8217;s shape.

The Hangetsu Dachi, or stance, you&#8217;re referring to is a Japanese Shotokan development (and they have their own factions between Shotokan vs. JKA) is a very strong stance, but it seems counter to the origin use of the stance from an Okinawan perspective.

For one example, let me offer a Seisan by one of my new sho-dans. It&#8217;s not perfect, but as all kata a work in progress, but it does show one of Okinawa&#8217;s stance variations.





pleasantly,


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 26, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Master Jay,
> 
> In that were talking about a style kata variations Id like to offer a few comments.
> 
> ...


 

Sensei Smith,
It is great to have an Isshinryu practitioner on the board. I began in Isshinryu in 1972 under Sensei Bill Pogue here in Detroit and have, over the years, trained with G.M. Willie Adams, Senseis Burt Ross, Dan Bartley, Eugene Woods, George Reynolds, as well as Sensei Norbert Donnelly. I love the Isshinryu system

In the book: Shotokans Secret, written by Sensei Bruce D. Clayton, Clayton surmises that; in watching an Isshinryu practitioner perform the katas of the system it is like seeing the closest variant of the kata to what the original must have looked like, as Shimabuku, Tatsuo learned these kata from Kyan, Chutoku. Kyan was noted for rebelling against the other Sensei of the time who chose to move toward linear movement with the longer and deeper stances. I think that Clayton did a great job in writing this book.

What you have stated here regarding the original variants of Seisan and all of the kata in question is correct. It was Itosu and others of his time that started the reconstruction of the structures in the process of passing them along to the next generation. As Funakoshi progressed in teaching his system, his students continued to modify the stances and structures to become deeper and more powerful as we see them today.

What is your Isshinryu history?

In your bio it states that you study Wu Style Tai Chi as well. We have a Sifu in Detroit named Steve Britt. He was, for many years, Eddy Wus senior student. Do you know him?

Contact me if you have a chance. My cell is: 313-377-4720.


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 26, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I would score the SBD (orange belt) higher. He had explosiveness in his moves. His stances appeared to be rooted well.
> 
> The second person (black belt) really flowed between movements but didn't have explosiveness and seemed blase.
> 
> I'm just learning the five elements and am a newbie though...


 

Lynne,
Watch the SBD guy again

Pay close attention to the placement of his front leg knee to the foot. His stances are too high and he never completes the stance to be rooted. His over exaggeration in his preparations off-balance him on every technique. His elbows roll to far over on every punch causing his shoulder to pop out of socket and his connections are completely lost.

But, as I stated, he is an 8th guep. Damon Kenyon is an excellent instructor. If he is a student of Damons, he will work all of these things out


----------



## Victor Smith (Sep 26, 2007)

Master Jay,

My Isshinryu background came from Tom Lewis (then Salisbury Md now on a ranch in Wyoming) and I&#8217;ve been doing it for 35 years.  BTW I studied TSD with Frank Trajonawizc in Scranton for several years, Chinese arts with Ernest Rothrock for 30 years and Shotokan and Indonesian studies with Tristan Sutrisno for over 10 years.

My Isshinryu history was first training under Mr. Lewis (a former Marine) and then under one of his students Charles Murray (USAF) who also trained under Shimabuku Tatsuo.Then I&#8217;ve been teaching youth for free for 30 years and a small group of adults for 22 years. My model was pre 1900 intimate instruction which we follow to this day. I also trained a bit with the late Sherman Harrill and picked up roughly 800 applications from the 8 Isshiryu kata, a small piece of his studies.

I&#8217;ve studied Yang Tai Chi from Ernest Rothrock for about 30 years, and as he got really into eagle claw (which he teaches today) He shared his Wu Tai Chi studies with me. I&#8217;m primarily a Yang stylist.  BTW his ex-wife Cynthia Rothrock was a TSD student of Frank Trojanowicz too. Small world.

I find Shotokan&#8217;s Secret, written by Sensei Bruce D. Clayton, more a case of special pleading (supporting Itosu and Shotokan&#8217;s development versus Kyan&#8217;s) simply because he should have focused on the systems that remained closer to Kyan&#8217;s teachings. Isshinryu&#8217;s founder Shimabuku Tatsuo definitely moved the paradigm with Isshinryu. He should have looked at Seibukan, Shorinjiryu and even Matsubayshi ryu as other Kyan derivative systems, for I feel they are closer to Kyan&#8217;s original intent. Which is not to slight his contributions in Isshirnyu, but the differences IMO mean that he could have chosen better to try and make a case. 

I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t agree one system&#8217;s approach is better than anothers. I&#8217;ve trained with too many good people that find very different ways to make their study work, the initial secret, decades of sweat equity.

Some Seisan versions to look at are attached below.  All of these version follow the Okinawan standard (IMO) is that the paradigm changes each generation/instructor moves on.  All of them are effective, abet differently.

Naha-te tradition (descended from Hiagonna K.)

Toon Ryu Seisan &#8211; not available on the net
Morio Higaonna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjddaBWugLs&mode=related&search=
Ryuei-ryu Seisan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTtRyNjA2eY&mode=related&search=
Seisan Shito Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouVbKOI1gQo&mode=related&search=

Uechi tradition &#8211; imported to Okinawan about 1948
Kanei Uechi - Seisan Kata





Several Shorin exmaples
Shobayashi Shorin-ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUznJJnMenE&mode=related&search=
Seibukan Seisan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFSnV7s_5i0&mode=related&search=
And humbly I&#8217;ll include my version of Isshinryu again
Isshinryu Seisan &#8211; Bushi No Te Isshinryu




Nakazato Joen's Shorinji-ryu kata has Seisan as the 2nd or 3rd kata
http://shao.sakura.ne.jp/kata.htm

Itosu&#8217;s descendents &#8211; 

Old Hangetsu shotokan




JKA Kata Hangetsu




Hirokazu Kanazawa &#8211; Hangetsu





BTW Egami&#8217;s turn from the JKA with the Shotokai went much further into stances and movement dynamics than the JKA uses.

Hangetsu (Shotokai)




Hangetsu




Maître Shigeru Egami (Shotokai)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad6bdqsFG5M&mode=related&search=

BTW my own analysis is that all of the Okinawan Seisan kata likely came from one kata. While Shorin, Goju and Uechi are vastly different, they share a core embusen, pattern, of a forward section, a turn, a forward pattern to the reversse and section and an &#8216;+&#8217; pattern. The rest may well be variation and embellishments  on the original theme.

Of course it&#8217;s just my analysis, which does not constitute proof, but I feel there is a logical case for it.

Pleasantly,


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 26, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> John,
> This is an unfair match up
> The Shotokan practitioner is a shodan, the SBD guy is an 8th gyup. The difference in quality clearly reflects the difference in experience.
> 
> ...



GREAT discussions here.  However, as a tournament matter, I would vote the orange belt higher.  AS an orange belt his level is above average, while the black belt had obvious deficits in her technique and was unaware of the impact of her body mechanics.  But yes, apples and oranges.  

My goal was for people to start looking at the similarities between styles and that good karate/TSD was good karate/TSD no matter what...


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 27, 2007)

There are huge differences in style here, but I would like to see a comparison of a "good" TSD practitioner and a "good" Shotokan practitioner performing the same style.  I'd be willing to bet that they would be very close in terms of performance.  Regardless of style, I would assume that both TSD or Karate stylists could agree that each other's performance was good.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Lynne,
> Watch the SBD guy again&#8230;
> 
> Pay close attention to the placement of his front leg knee to the foot. His stances are too high and he never completes the stance to be rooted. His over exaggeration in his preparations off-balance him on every technique. His elbows roll to far over on every punch causing his shoulder to pop out of socket and his connections are completely lost.
> ...


Oh, ok.  I noticed, too, that his back leg is bent in the front stances.  That's a bad habit I just started falling into myself.  I noticed he didn't settle into his stances.  Maybe nervous and rushed.

I still have that problem with my shoulders not being square.  Tricky to explode and not shift the shoulder forward. I also have the problem with my front stances being too high.

I wonder if I step deeper if my shoulders would be more square?


----------



## Victor Smith (Sep 27, 2007)

Hi Lynne,

I think you'll find its not the depth of the stance but more how you use your abdominal area (some refer to as using your hips) to keep your shoulders square. As you explode forward if you have the correct abdominal rotation it will keep your shoulders as you wish.

Oft-times for newer students they focus on a piece of the movement. This is natural, but in time you understand more of the  bodies mechanisms involved in natural movement and can start to use them effectively.

I'm sure your instructors advice in time will show you how to resolve this in your movement.

Good luck,


----------



## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Hi Lynne,
> 
> I think you'll find its not the depth of the stance but more how you use your abdominal area (some refer to as using your hips) to keep your shoulders square. As you explode forward if you have the correct abdominal rotation it will keep your shoulders as you wish.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Victor.  I'll focus on using my core today, see if that helps!


----------



## JWLuiza (Oct 23, 2007)

I've posted a video of me doing a form in the members in motion section.


----------

