# Ever been tazed?



## Thesemindz (Feb 23, 2009)

So I'm sitting here watching Fight Science on the National Geographic Channel and they're talking about tazers. They show all the science behind it, and how it works, and they show footage of cops and bad guys getting tazed and reacting to it.

Then they have a self defense instructor who thinks he can overcome getting tazed. So they stand him up, hook a heart monitor up to him to gauge the effect of the tazer, and they shoot him with it.

He falls over, but quickly manages to grab the wires with his hands and yank the probes out of his body, at which point he promptly stands back up and confronts his attacker.

Now I thought this was pretty impressive. I've never been tazed, but I wondered how it would work, and clearly, an aggressive and composed attacker can overcome its effects. 

You can find the video here. 

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/fight-science/3049/Overview#tab-Videos/03296_09

So what do you guys think? Have you been tazed? What was the experience like? Personally, I'd rather have a .45 than a tazer. That way, god forbid I have to shoot someone in self defense, I know they won't be pulling the slugs out and standing back up.

Unless they're a brain eating zombie.


-Rob


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## Archangel M (Feb 23, 2009)

That was a staged..prepared event. While it may be "possible" that someone could do it on the street, its highly unlikely. Just like the stories of guys brain shot still killing for 4-5 seconds. Could happen, but not likely. No weapon is "foolproof" but 9 (9.5) times out of 10, if you get good probe hits, the taser will knock you on your ***.

And the Taser is a non lethal weapon. Cant compare it to a .45. When you need a .45...you need a .45. Tasers DO NOT replace lethal force.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 23, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> That was a staged..prepared event. While it may be "possible" that someone could do it on the street, its highly unlikely. Just like the stories of guys brain shot still killing for 4-5 seconds. Could happen, but not likely. No weapon is "foolproof" but 9 (9.5) times out of 10, if you get good probe hits, the taser will knock you on your ***.
> 
> And the Taser is a non lethal weapon. Cant compare it to a .45. When you need a .45...you need a .45. Tasers DO NOT replace lethal force.


 
I agree with everything you've said here.

It was a staged event, but it also still worked. And he was also sober, not under the influence of any drug that could enhance his ability to resist pain.

As to comparing it to a .45, I agree. Although I don't necessarily agree that tazers are non-lethal, several people have died from being tazed. They are _intended_ to be non-lethal, and certainly have less _potential_ for lethality, but they can still result in death. My point was just to say that if I was going to shoot someone, I'd want to make sure I shot him with something that knocked him down and kept him there.


-Rob


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## Archangel M (Feb 23, 2009)

Neither weapon is guaranteed to do that. The Taser has as good an effectiveness record as the pistol in "one shot stops" IMO. As a matter of fact I would say the Taser has a better record...probe hits to "non-vital" areas will still drop a high percentage of targets. Same cant be said for pistol caliber rounds. The issue with the taser is that for all intents and purposes its a one shot weapon. It has limited range, zero penetration of barriers and to put it bluntly..when you need to kill someone you need to kill someone. And if I had to do that I'd prefer a rifle.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 23, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Neither weapon is guaranteed to do that. The Taser has as good an effectiveness record as the pistol in "one shot stops" IMO. As a matter of fact I would say the Taser has a better record...probe hits to "non-vital" areas will still drop a high percentage of targets. Same cant be said for pistol caliber rounds. The issue with the taser is that for all intents and purposes its a one shot weapon. It has limited range, zero penetration of barriers and to put it bluntly..when you need to kill someone you need to kill someone.


 
You raise a very fair point there about one shot with a tazer versus one shot with a pistol. And one which must be granted if we are to compare the two weapons.

Have you ever been tazed? I have not. Is it more a matter of pain, or complete inability to engage the muscles? If it is pain, I could see how it could be resisted. If it is an inability to send electrical impulses, it would certainly seem harder to do so.


-Rob


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## Archangel M (Feb 23, 2009)

I couldnt move a muscle and it hurt like hell. But when the juice went off I walked away.

Another difference between weapons.


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## elder999 (Feb 23, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I couldnt move a muscle and it hurt like hell. But when the juice went off I walked away..


 

Ditto, but it _*ruined the rest of my day.*_


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## Archangel M (Feb 23, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Ditto, but it _*ruined the rest of my day.*_


 

I had a little soreness but I had worse DOMS from hard workouts.


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## jks9199 (Feb 23, 2009)

It also was not a solid, center mass hit.  Watch it slowly (it used to be available on line), and you'll see that he's hit in the stomach and arm.  That does effect how the Taser's EMI spreads.

But -- most importantly, as Archangel rightly notes, a Taser is an option in a specific range of circumstances and is in no way a substitute for lethal force.  Ideally, when the Taser is deployed, someone else is ready with lethal force in case it's not enough.


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## jks9199 (Feb 23, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I couldnt move a muscle and it hurt like hell. But when the juice went off I walked away.
> 
> Another difference between weapons.


Me too; I went rigid, and was lowered to the ground.  

Reactions that day ranged from one guy coming up swinging (literally!) after the 5 second ride, through a little wobbly (me and a couple of others, kind of like getting off a boat), to one person was a little sickened/nauseous, for a few minutes.

But nobody went to the hospital, and nobody was injured.  Not the same if we'd been using firearms or batons...  And, unlike OC, it was over when it was over.


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## Carol (Feb 23, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> You raise a very fair point there about one shot with a tazer versus one shot with a pistol. And one which must be granted if we are to compare the two weapons.
> 
> Have you ever been tazed? I have not. Is it more a matter of pain, or complete inability to engage the muscles? If it is pain, I could see how it could be resisted. If it is an inability to send electrical impulses, it would certainly seem harder to do so.
> 
> ...



An inability to send electrical impulses per se would be a dangerous, if not fatal amount of electricity.  

A TASER can feel like a cramp (pain) when it is engaged, but there is more too it than pain.  When activated, the TASER delivers a series of ECD pulses designed to specifically make the muscles contract. 

ECD pulses are also used - generally at much higher intensities - in biomedical applications.  To describe them is kind of like describing a Post-It note.  With a Post-It note, the glue is sticky enough to stay put on the page, but not so sticky that it damages paper...even thin paper.  

ECD pulses were engineered to deliver the same sort of middle ground...a series of pulses that produced enough stimulus for muscles to contract, but not so much to be damaging.  Perhaps the best known application of ECD pulses is one that is much stronger than a taser - the pulses used in cardiac defibrillation paddles.

So no, its not really something that a person can just power through...but...shot placement can make a difference and the person's clothing can make a difference as to what level of disruption actually occurs.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 23, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> An inability to send electrical impulses per se would be a dangerous, if not fatal amount of electricity.
> 
> A TASER can feel like a cramp (pain) when it is engaged, but there is more too it than pain. When activated, the TASER delivers a series of ECD pulses designed to specifically make the muscles contract.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the info. Can a person's unique biochemical makeup and anatomical structure also affect the effectiveness of a taser? For instance, would someone with nerve damage, or limited musle death be affected differently? I would assume the answer is yes, but I don't really know much about tasers. Also, could drugs which interfere with the way the mind percieves information, like PCP or Acid affect how a person reacted to being tased?

-Rob


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## Carol (Feb 23, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Thanks for the info. Can a person's unique biochemical makeup and anatomical structure also affect the effectiveness of a taser? For instance, would someone with nerve damage, or limited musle death be affected differently?  I would assume the answer is yes, but I don't really know much about tasers.



I'd assume so but...I'm personally more familiar with variations of electricity than variations in humans.  (I know...typical engineer...)



> Also, could drugs which interfere with the way the mind percieves information, like PCP or Acid affect how a person reacted to being tased?


Drugs may affect how a person feels the cramping, but the drugs generally won't override the contraction of the muscles...because the purpose of the ECD pulse is to directly contract the local muscles without requiring the brain or any other part of the body to be involved.  This is how a cardiac defib can sometimes work on a patient that is unconscious or even clinically dead.


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 23, 2009)

There have been cases where people tazed didn't fall. Not many, but it has happened.

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...ports-stress-TASERs-safety-and-effectiveness/

http://www.gbpolice.org/Taser Study.pdf

But Taser's do have faults. Range (lack of it), multiple shots, abilty to go through very thick clothing (leather vest becomes a 'taser proof' vest, and possibilty of malfunctions (it's alot more complex than a handgun.)

But when it comes between clubbing a resistant suspect and taser them, well the taz is the answer.

Oh, and BTW, I've never been tazed, nor pepper sprayed, nor beaten with a club (and i have no desire to find out what they are like.)

Deaf


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## Archangel M (Feb 23, 2009)

They are working on the multiple shot/range issue...

http://www.taser.com/PRODUCTS/LAW/Pages/XREP.aspx

Who knows what the future holds?


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## Carol (Feb 23, 2009)

The TASER's biggest limitation is its requirement to be attached to a source of power (meaning:  a battery), and that battery must robust enough to deliver the ECD pulses. Batteries that are lighter and more powerful are in demand for everything from cell phones to laptop computers to medical equipment to hybrid cars.  As this technology improves, so will the versatility.

Plus, can't TASER use be tracked by LE?  Don't TASERs deploy spray of small plastic bits microencoded with the TASERs serial number?


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## punisher73 (Feb 24, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I agree with everything you've said here.
> 
> It was a staged event, but it also still worked. And he was also sober, not under the influence of any drug that could enhance his ability to resist pain.
> 
> ...


 
A couple points. The new TASER does NOT work on pain compliance. So drugs/alcohol do not affect whether it works or not. Pain compliance is an added bonus that most people just submit because it does hurt. The TASER works by overriding/scrambling the brain's signal to the muscles causing a whole body contraction, much like one giant charley horse. If I remember right, the device used in the video is NOT the newest generation of TASER and it is unlikely it could be done again like that. If I remember right from the video the TASER model was not used.

Second point, the TASER is meant for a 5 second burst to give time for officers to close the distance and cuff the suspect. After the 5 seconds is over there are no "residual effects" like pepper spray or something like that would have. Also, the civilian model of the TASER, is set for 25 seconds to give you time to run away before the attacker has time to react. 

Most of the time when you see a TASER (newest version) not work, it is because of Mr. Murphy and the probes did not imbed to complete the circuit like they are supposed to, or the clothing is too thick to penetrate into the body.

Lastly, NOBODY has died from being tasered. If I shoot you in the head you die as a direct result from the weapon used. The people who have died after being tased were people with a pre-existing medical condition or were so high on drugs that the stress of the event triggered a heart attack (the Taser itself does not effect the heart in any measurable way, even on a pacemaker). The TASER might be seen as an indirect trigger event, but it is not the cause of death. That is an important distinction to be made. 

Deaf Smith wrote:





> There have been cases where people tazed didn't fall. Not many, but it has happened.


 
I was able to get tased during my certification and was able to stand up through it and slightly move forward. There were also a couple others from my department who could do that on the full 5 second ride. TASER came out with a newer model that is more effective and the people I know who took a shot with that went straight down even though they could move with the prior one.

Carol Kaur wrote: 





> The TASER's biggest limitation is its requirement to be attached to a source of power (meaning: a battery), and that battery must robust enough to deliver the ECD pulses. Batteries that are lighter and more powerful are in demand for everything from cell phones to laptop computers to medical equipment to hybrid cars. As this technology improves, so will the versatility.
> 
> Plus, can't TASER use be tracked by LE? Don't TASERs deploy spray of small plastic bits microencoded with the TASERs serial number?


 
TASER has acutally developed a selfcontained 'shotgun' round that does not have lead wires like the smaller 'pistol' version. I want to say it is up to 100ft. and has a longer 'shock' time to allow officers to close that distance.

Yes, TASERS are all coded and recorded every time they are deployed. The newest ones have a small built in camera that records everything as well as soon as the device is turned on.


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## Drac (Feb 24, 2009)

When taking the training to carry the Tazer the department asked for volunteers to take a full hit, I decined..However when doing the practical applications scenerios I didnt wait until the Tazer stopped " clicking" and rushed in to cuff the suspect and my leg touched one of the wires and I froze unable to move..


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 24, 2009)

I was tazed as part of a certification class.  Completely incapacitated me until the juice stopped flowing, and then I was (physically) fine immediately.

But while the juice flowed, it hurt like an SOB and I was completely paralyzed.

Tazers scare the hell out of me now.

That said, I agree with many of the above posts:  absolutely effective weapon if used for its designed purpose.  It's not a .45 (lethal).  It's not a sniper rifle (range).  It's not a knife or tonfa (unlimited ammo).   But for a non-lethal, close range, one-shot item it's brutal.


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## elder999 (Feb 24, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Lastly, NOBODY has died from being tasered. .


 
TASER International Inc. lost its first products liability case on June 6, 2008 when a jury awarded damages of more than $6 million in the wrongful death lawsuit of a 40-year old California man. Robert Heston was intoxicated with methamphetamine when he was subjected by police officers to approximately 25 discharges from multiple TASER electronic control devices: the lawsuit claimed the shocks from the TASER contributed to his death.



> In October and November 2007, four individuals died after being tasered in Canada, leading to calls for review of its use. The highest-profile of these cases was that of Robert Dzieka&#324;ski, a non-English speaking man from Poland who died in less than two minutes after being tasered by Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) at the Vancouver International Airport, October 14, 2007The tasering was captured on home video and was broadcast nationallyThis was followed by three further death-after-Tasering incidents in Montreal, Halifax, Nova Scotia, and Chilliwack, British Columbia, leading Amnesty International to demand Taser use end in Canada, as it had records of 16 other such deaths in the country.[19] On November 18, 2007, a 20-year-old man in Frederick, Maryland fell unconscious and died also right after being tasered.
> On December 12, 2007, in response to the death of Robert Dzieka&#324;ski, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day requested that the federal Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP (CPC) prepare recommendations for immediate implementation. The CPC report recommended to "immediately restrict the use of the conducted energy weapon (CEW)" by reclassifying it as an "impact weapon." The commission released its report on 18 June 2008; recommendations include restricting use to experienced officers (5 years or more), providing medical attention to those who have been zapped, improving previous documentation of specific deployment of the weapon, among other things
> A 2004 CBS News report described 70 deaths believed to be caused by the Taser, including 10 in August 2004 alone] At that time Amnesty International reported the number at 150 since June 2001.
> Summit County, Ohio medical examiner Lisa J. Kohler cited Taser use as a cause of death in three cases, Mark D. McCullaugh, Dennis S. Hyde, and Richard Holcomb. Taser International sued, and on May 2, 2008, visiting judge Ted Schneiderman ordered the medical examiner to remove all references to "Taser" in the reports and change the cause of death in McCullaugh's case from "Homicide" to "Undetermined."
> ...




Seen  here


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## punisher73 (Feb 24, 2009)

elder999 said:


> TASER International Inc. lost its first products liability case on June 6, 2008 when a jury awarded damages of more than $6 million in the wrongful death lawsuit of a 40-year old California man. Robert Heston was intoxicated with methamphetamine when he was subjected by police officers to approximately 25 discharges from multiple TASER electronic control devices: the lawsuit claimed the shocks from the TASER contributed to his death.
> 
> [/font][/size]
> 
> Seen here


 
Hmmmm, high on drugs and drunk. You put a drug into the system that effects the heart rate and ramps it up and then induce a high level stress situation? Again, it is not the shock of the TASER that caused it but the stress of the event. I don't care what a JURY says it was, read the medical studies on the TASER's effects. Even then, the jury ruled it "contributed" not caused. 

This was a civil lawsuit where they are going to go after the person with the most money. Since it is also a civil case, it is a very low bar to have to get over to win (tip your case slightly in your favor and you win it).

These cases are about somebody trying to get rich quick. It was like a few years ago when some guy got drunk at Giant's stadium and found ways to violate the alcohol policy and then got in a wreck on the way home and killed someone. They family of the victim sued and won MILLIONS of dollars from the Giant's organization because they "contributed" to the accident. 

I have yet to see a case where somebody got disorderly and was completely in good health and was only tased once and then died. It is ALWAYS somebody in poor health or high on drugs, or somebody that is both and continues to disobey and fight with the police and multiple hits are used.


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## elder999 (Feb 24, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> I have yet to see a case where somebody got disorderly and was completely in good health and was only tased once and then died. It is ALWAYS somebody in poor health or high on drugs, or somebody that is both and continues to disobey and fight with the police and multiple hits are used.


 
Yea, maybe, but you said:



> Originally Posted by *punisher73*
> 
> 
> _Lastly, NOBODY has died from being tasered. ._


 
Ane people have died from being tasered. In some instances, because of the issues that you cited, in some because they fell and cracked their skulls, and in some because the taser was "abused."


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## Carol (Feb 24, 2009)

I think the death of Victoria Snelgrove outside Fenway Park in 2004 is a solid demonstration of how non-lethal force is better described as less-lethal force.


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## Drac (Feb 24, 2009)

Any and all injuries sustained at the hands of the police could have been *prevented* if the suspect /subject simpy *STOPPED RESISTING ARREST ..*


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## elder999 (Feb 24, 2009)

Drac said:


> Any and all injuries sustained at the hands of the police could have been *prevented* if the suspect /subject simpy *STOPPED RESISTING ARREST ..*


 

The fellow in this story was zapped nine times _*after he was handcuffed*_.:



> WINNFIELD, Louisiana (CNN) -- A police officer shocked a handcuffed Baron "Scooter" Pikes nine times with a Taser after arresting him on a cocaine charge  He stopped twitching after seven, according to a coroner's report. Soon afterward, Pikes was dead.Now the officer, since fired, could end up facing criminal charges in Pikes' January death after medical examiners ruled it a homicide.
> Dr. Randolph Williams, the Winn Parish coroner, told CNN the 21-year-old sawmill worker was jolted so many times by the 50,000-volt Taser that he might have been dead before the last two shocks were delivered.
> Williams ruled Pikes' death a homicide in June after extensive study.


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## Carol (Feb 24, 2009)

elder999 said:


> The fellow in this story was zapped nine times _*after he was handcuffed*_.:
> 
> [/font][/size]



The officer that tazed the victim lost his job, and has since been indicted on one count of manslaughter and one count of malfeasance in office.  He goes to trial on July 13, and faces a potential maximum of 45 years behind bars.

http://www.thetowntalk.com/article/20090131/NEWS01/901310351


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 24, 2009)

Yes I have been tazed by a tazer shield when I went through training for the Kentucky Dept. of Corrections. I was a C.O. at a state prison.  The shield was one that they use during riots.  It has wire running through the glass shield and on the back it has 2 handles with triggers.  When you pull the trigger it sends a jolt through the shield.  When you put the shield up to someone you pull the triggers and push them up against a wall.  We had one inmate that just laughed when we tazed him.  He was in the phyc ward.


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## Carol (Feb 24, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Yes I have been tazed by a tazer shield when I went through training for the Kentucky Dept. of Corrections. I was a C.O. at a state prison.  The shield was one that they use during riots.  It has wire running through the glass shield and on the back it has 2 handles with triggers.  When you pull the trigger it sends a jolt through the shield.  When you put the shield up to someone you pull the triggers and push them up against a wall.  We had one inmate that just laughed when we tazed him.  He was in the phyc ward.



That sounds more like a stun gun than a taser.  With stun guns, a person's mental state or level of drug/alcohol use can directly affect how the person reacts to the shock, because stun guns are a simple DC high-voltage, low-ampereage shock and nothing else.

If contact is properly made with the electrodes, then the ECD pulse is enough to cause the muscles to momentarily clench, regardless of the person's mental state or even if the person is unconscious.  There's a news release from Taser indicating that riot-control shield will be available around 4Q08, but the Taser website doesn't indicate that as an available product.


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## JadeDragon3 (Feb 24, 2009)

They called it a tazer shield. Its what the C.E.R.T. (certified emergency response team) uses. It's a prison's version of the S.W.A.T. team


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## Carol (Feb 24, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Also, the civilian model of the TASER, is set for 25 seconds to give you time to run away before the attacker has time to react.



But the power source is in the handheld unit, and the projectile goes out on wire leads.  Does that mean the civilian should drop the weapon and run for safety once engaging the taser?


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## Archangel M (Feb 24, 2009)

Those shields while called "Taser Shields" are simply stun guns or Tasers used in "drive stun" mode...which is the equivalent of a stun gun.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 24, 2009)

One of my buddies just sent me this video





 
It's some guys getting tased and then practicing tactical shooting. I thought it was pretty interesting and might contribute to the discussion.


-Rob


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## jks9199 (Feb 24, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> There have been cases where people tazed didn't fall. Not many, but it has happened.
> 
> http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...ports-stress-TASERs-safety-and-effectiveness/
> 
> ...


There are some YouTube videos of a martial arts school that hit a guy with a Taser and he's not effected.  He's also rather overweight, and the hit is to the fat of his body.  Fat conducts electricity differently, and it doesn't contract like muscle, so the Taser doesn't work as well on signifigantly overweight subjects, especially if it hits, for example the belly.


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## Archangel M (Feb 24, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> There are some YouTube videos of a martial arts school that hit a guy with a Taser and he's not effected.  He's also rather overweight, and the hit is to the fat of his body.  Fat conducts electricity differently, and it doesn't contract like muscle, so the Taser doesn't work as well on signifigantly overweight subjects, especially if it hits, for example the belly.



I PM'd a guy here who posted up a vid of a similar test. I think its the same guy. If I remember the communication correctly, that Taser was an early "civilian model". Again..not an ideal test to judge the effectiveness of modern LE model Tasers.


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## jks9199 (Feb 24, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I PM'd a guy here who posted up a vid of a similar test. I think its the same guy. If I remember the communication correctly, that Taser was an early "civilian model". Again..not an ideal test to judge the effectiveness of modern LE model Tasers.


The early Air Taser and similar products aren't nearly the same as the current generation X26 or M26 Tasers.  Nor are several products on the market...  Right now, I'm not aware of any similar electrical charge device that utilizes any version of the NeuroMuscular Incapicitation of the "real" Taser.  

Assuming a solid hit, with a reasonable spread (12 to 18 inches or so) between the leads -- the Taser is HIGHLY reliable to do the job it's designed for.  

One other point... The current models of the Taser don't deliver a 50000 volt shock; they use a 50000 volt charge to pass through any clothing, skin, etc. and almost immediately the voltage drops down to more like a couple of thousand.  And the amperage is a tiny fraction of the amps involved in a cardiac defibrilator.  In fact, it's a tiny fraction of the amperage in household current!


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## punisher73 (Feb 25, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> But the power source is in the handheld unit, and the projectile goes out on wire leads. Does that mean the civilian should drop the weapon and run for safety once engaging the taser?


 
Up to you, do you value your safety or your property more?  I'm not trying to be flippant, but you do have to weigh the risks or carrying the TASER vs. OC or some other non-lethal deterrent.

Also, the civilian TASER is not legal in all states (In MI I know it is not legal), so you would need to check state/local laws first.


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