# Learning Curve



## mpossoff (Dec 17, 2007)

Hi all I am looking into Chen style. What I wanted to know can combat and self defense applications be taught from the beginning? In other words I have heard that Taijiquan is a longer learning curve. But I was wondering if it can be taught in a way that focuses on combat and self defense from the start?

Thanks!

Marc


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## oxy (Dec 17, 2007)

mpossoff said:


> Hi all I am looking into Chen style. What I wanted to know can combat and self defense applications be taught from the beginning? In other words I have heard that Taijiquan is a longer learning curve. But I was wondering if it can be taught in a way that focuses on combat and self defense from the start?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Marc



What's the rush?


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## East Winds (Dec 17, 2007)

mpossoff,

Simple answer is yes. It just takes a long time to get them right and to learn the correct principles behind the applications. In fact if your teacher does NOT teach with the martial in mind from the very start, look else where. (Unless you only want health or dance).

Very best wishes


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## mpossoff (Dec 17, 2007)

East Winds said:


> mpossoff,
> 
> Simple answer is yes. It just takes a long time to get them right and to learn the correct principles behind the applications. In fact if your teacher does NOT teach with the martial in mind from the very start, look else where. (Unless you only want health or dance).
> 
> Very best wishes



Thank you.

The teacher I'm looking at is:

http://www.taijiboxing.com/

I was hoping if you can give me an honest general assessment from the site.

Marc


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 17, 2007)

mpossoff said:


> Hi all I am looking into Chen style. What I wanted to know can combat and self defense applications be taught from the beginning? In other words I have heard that Taijiquan is a longer learning curve. But I was wondering if it can be taught in a way that focuses on combat and self defense from the start?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Marc


 
Per Tung Ying Jie, no. You need to understand the postures of at least the long form first, but this is Yang style. However from what I have seen neither Chan Xiaowang or Chen Zhenglei start by teaching applications until at least the first form is completed (Laojia yilu) However I have not trained at all with Chen Xiaowang and only very little with Chen Zhanglei so I could be wrong in my observation.

However I do feel that applications to postures could be taught early but using them the way they were meant to be used with little force and patients takes much longer. However with that said I am not 100% certain that learning to use them the wrong way in the beginning is a good or bad thing for later development.

Chen style tends to lend itself to easier to understand martial applications in some of its postures as compared to Yang. However Chen too can be very hard to understand in places without a lot of training.


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## East Winds (Dec 17, 2007)

mpossoff,

I'm sorry I don't think it is possible or fair to try and judge ability merely by looking at a website.

When I talk about "teaching with the martial in mind" you need to know why you are placing a hand here or a leg there or a foot in a particular position. Because if you have these aspects correctly in place, the application (whenever you learn it) will be correct. (This is exactly why we have the 10 essences in Yang style).There is little value in learning a posture unless you also know WHY you are placing hands in a particular position. (for a lock, a punch, a deflect, etc.). or feet and legs in a particular place (for stability, for kicking, for blocking etc.). Why would you want to learn a series of postures initially, only to have to adapt them later to make them work martially? Learn them correctly in the first place, even if you cant yet USE them correctly. I always teach beginners by demonstrating the martial application for every posture. They then have an idea of why they are moving in a particular way. Of course it takes many months (sometimes years) to actually be able to do these things themselves and of course I do not teach (or allow) students to practise martial applications until they are proficient in performing the form on their own. (Of course if they have no wish to practise the martial side, then that is OK). But at least they know right from the start what they are supposed to be doing. Otherwise it would be like learning to drive. Telling your students you will teach them the rules of the road after they have passed their driving test. 

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 17, 2007)

East Winds said:


> I'm sorry I don't think it is possible or fair to try and judge ability merely by looking at a website.


 
Agreed

mpossoff

I did not look at the website before but I just did and I do not know Michael Rosario Graycar but I do know about Ren Guang-Yi. 

He is a long time student of Chen Xiaowang and I believe he was Chen Xiaowang's student in Chen Village. Ren Guang-Yi is highly skilled at Chen style Taijiquan. 

But I do not know anything about Michael Rosario Graycar. How long did he train with Ren Guang-Yi and how did he train; seminars, regular classes. etc.? Also has he been given permission to teach Chen style by either Ren Guang-Yi or Chen Xiaowang and if so exactly what has he been given permission to teach? 

To be 100% honest if I lived closer I would be studying Chen style with Ren Guang-Yi, but most unfortunately I believe his school is about 4 hours form me.


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## mpossoff (Dec 18, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Agreed
> 
> mpossoff
> 
> ...



Thanks Xue Sheng,

I got some information:

"I have been training fulltime with Master Ren since Nov. of 1996. I have learned by attending regular group classes, many private lessons and seminars over the years. I still train with him at least once a month. I have also had numerous privates with Grandmaster Chen, Xiaowang, his brother Chen, Xioaxing and Master Chen, Bing, (I host all 3 usually every year ) This year Chen, Xiaoxing son is coming instead of him. I have full permission to teach all that I have learned from Master Ren with Grandmaster Chen's blessing. I am one of about 4 or 5 people who have full authority to teach under Master Ren. I have been teaching since 2000.
I have full training in the Inner work(neigong),forms,push hands, and combat training, as well as weapons forms and usuage."

Marc


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 18, 2007)

mpossoff said:


> Thanks Xue Sheng,
> 
> I got some information:
> 
> ...


 
Chen Bing I know little about but I hear he is very good; Chen Xiaoxing is very good, if memory serves he has been mostly in Chen Village teaching but he does come to the US from time to time. 

And since Ren Sifu gave Michael Rosario Graycar permission then it should be a good Chen School ad it is good enough for me.

Another good source for Chen Info is Chenwired.com they have a lot of very experienced Chen practitioners there. But hurry if you are going to ask them anything, sadly they may have to shut the page down in early 2008.

Edit:

I also am *EXTREMELY* envious of being able to train with Ren Guang Yi, Chen Xiaowang and Chen Xiaoxing


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## mpossoff (Dec 23, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Chen Bing I know little about but I hear he is very good; Chen Xiaoxing is very good, if memory serves he has been mostly in Chen Village teaching but he does come to the US from time to time.
> 
> And since Ren Sifu gave Michael Rosario Graycar permission then it should be a good Chen School ad it is good enough for me.
> 
> ...



http://youtube.com/watch?v=ODbRxRNhiL4&feature=related

Chen Xiaowang with Michael Rosario Graycar at the school I was asking about.

Marc


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## Selfcritical (Dec 26, 2007)

The striking mechanics looked fine in all of the padwork, and he has full contact San Shou for the sparring format, so I would expect that the higher level of contact would generally lead to a shorter learning curve. Since he seems in all of his videos to be isolating parts of the form and working them in pad rounds with his students, it's fairly probable he's teaching them with martial intent.


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