# Article:  The TKD Billion Dollar Smokescreen



## Kacey (Jul 17, 2007)

Has anyone else seen this?  Have any comments about it?

The Tae Kwon Do billion dollar Smokescreen



> *1. Tae Kwon Do is a Martial Art - FALSE*  it is The Korean National Sport. It was founded officially in 1965 - documented in the Korean Government as the national Korean sport. The point is, Tae Kwon Do came from no large or ancient art. It was developed from Japanese Karate styles such as Shotokan and also Judo. Now in America, since you can market anything whether it's the truth or not. They market strongly as a "Martial art" and when they see fit then it's a "Sport" , "self defense", "Kickboxing" , "inner development", "Tai Chi", "Kung Fu" or even "Yoga". The issue here is that Tae kwon Do leaders continue to purposefully fabricate the history of this sport and also claim it is a Martial art, ignoring the government documents on it's creation as the national sport and based solely on the fabricated history. The public needs to be aware that Tae Kwon Do *IS NOT* a Martial art and *NEVER was*. Tae Kwon Do practioners are referred to as Tae Kwon Doist, never Martial artist. Please read on as to why this is so important. Understanding that Martial art and Martial sport are 100% different.
> *2. Tae Kwon Do is an ancient art from 50BC - FALSE* - It was formed  by "unifying" the  Kwans (mini-styles) that originated from 1945 to 1960 (the Kwan instructors studied Shotokan Karate or Judo in Japan and then formed their kwan) in Korea. Between 1945 to 1960 there were 40 different kwan that had sprung up all over korea. All the kwan were competing with one another and this was preventing the idea of Tae Kwon Do becoming a unified national sport. It was more or less forced on the Kwan heads to unify to form one National sport. Unifying all the kwans and developing Tae kwon Do into a National sport became the agreed objective for the "leaders & pioneers " in this movement. It was not developed from the Ancient lost Martial art called Taek Kyon. Alhough the name Tae Kwon Do is similiar. The leaders used this name purposefully because it resembled the name Taek kyon.
> The name Tae kwon Do was being used by alot of the kwans,but many arguments about what to call the standardized sport was the delay in the process. In 1960, it was agreed to call it Tae Soo Do - that was what a majority of the "leaders" decided upon and put the name into existence. Then in 1965, after much argument, the name again changed from Tae Soo Do totally to Tae kwon Do.



There's more... I suggest clicking the link and reading the entire page before commenting.  I'm still thinking about some of it.


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## crushing (Jul 17, 2007)

For a sense of perspective and more information on Master Christian Whitney, pioneer and Grand Master 10th Degree Black belt of Genshinryu and likely author of the site not to confused with TaeKwonDo Times, his school's website is at http://www.genshinkidojo.com/ as well as his bio at http://www.dojos.com/genshinkidojo/index.htm

I just want to briefly point out a few things.

The controversial history of TKD has been discussed at length on MT and elsewhere.  It appears the nameless author's biggest argument is that people haven't been completely honest about the history of TKD and that it hasn't been around long enough to be a martial art.  So that leads me to ask, "When does TKD reach 'the age of majority?"

But, the 'anonymous' author has some of the same problems with TKD that many TKDin have with black belt factory schools and six year olds getting 2nd dan (let alone first dan!).  There is no disagreement that these things happen, but how does this keep TKD from being a martial art?

Sure there are TKD competitions.  For these competitions rules are imposed and only a subset of the complete martial art is employed.  Again, how does this keep TKD from being a martial art?

Disclaimer:  TKD is one of my MARTIAL ARTS.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 18, 2007)

Sadly I'm at work at the moment and the company Net Nannie wont let me at the article to read it.

However, I can guess what the article contains and comment directly on the quoted snippet.

TKD may be the adopted national sport of Korea and, from related conversations elsewhere, some of you know what my opinion of the alleged 'history' of the art would be ... however, just because it's used as a sport doesn't make it *not* a martial art.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

Plus, it may not be directly relevant to this thread but I've said before that the TKD people (at least here) have been amongst the most open-minded and welcoming I've ever come across in the martial community - so they're doing something right :tup:.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 18, 2007)

I would say that this guy has little understanding of syncreticism.  If you go back in time long enough, all martial arts are imports from somewhere else.  Sure, their may have been some innovations along the way, but all of them pretty much begged borrowed and stole their way into systemhood.  

Any many of these arts are replete with stories of people going off "into the mountains" and "inventing" the exact same thing the other guys were doing.

So, I think the author needs to do a little more sincere research in this matter instead of jumping on the latest bandwagon and dissing TKD.


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## crushing (Jul 18, 2007)

Getting away from the content of the disparaging rant, I think the real purpose behind that website may be to get the TaeKwonDoTimes.com people to pony up some chon and purchase the domain from him.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define+cybersquatting


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## Kacey (Jul 18, 2007)

crushing said:


> Getting away from the content of the disparaging rant, I think the real purpose behind that website may be to get the TaeKwonDoTimes.com people to pony up some chon and purchase the domain from him.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=define+cybersquatting



Entirely possible - and I would suspect it would be in their best interest to do so - but I still found the statements in the article to be... umm... at an interesting slant!  I find most of it to be bashing, rather than informative, and I freely admit that I couldn't read in detail; I kept laughing to much to form a meaningful response.  However, people who don't have experience and/or knowledge of TKD could consider it informative - which is what concerns me about it.


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## IcemanSK (Jul 18, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Entirely possible - and I would suspect it would be in their best interest to do so - but I still found the statements in the article to be... umm... at an interesting slant! I find most of it to be bashing, rather than informative, and I freely admit that I couldn't read in detail; I kept laughing to much to form a meaningful response. *However, people who don't have experience and/or knowledge of TKD could consider it informative - which is what concerns me about it.*


 
Agreed.


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## matt.m (Jul 18, 2007)

Wow, just wow.  I won't go on a slambaste flame session on the author of the site.  No need to.  Everyone who trains tae kwon do at a good school in a good org. all knows that TKD is a martial art.

We all know schools that promote the "Black belt academy" etc.  However, if you call tae kwon do a sport only/non-martial art then you have to do the same for judo.

This guy really went out of his way to convince himself that he is right.....that is about all I got out of it.  BTW: In journalism or publishing you can't be slant, too easy of a setup for libel.  Zdom is a journalist, we talked about this nonsensical site.  I talked with a lot of others in the org about it as well.  We all had a good laugh, the general gist is:  "You are always more than welcome to train with us if you like.  We welcome all."


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## Miles (Jul 18, 2007)

<yawn>

Miles


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## terryl965 (Jul 18, 2007)

Miles said:


> <yawn>
> 
> Miles


 

This my feeling exactly
Terry


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## Steel Tiger (Jul 18, 2007)

Well now, I didn't know you TKD guys used underhand marketing tricks and don't advertise yourselves as TKD schools.  This ROK plot to use TKD to take over the world just gets deeper and deeper.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 18, 2007)

Are you sure the article wasn't written by some disgruntled TKD-er who lost at a Tournament?


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## terryl965 (Jul 18, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Are you sure the article wasn't written by some disgruntled TKD-er who lost at a Tournament?


 

Very well could have been, those things happen.


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## Steel Tiger (Jul 18, 2007)

He did sound extremely disgruntled.


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## Carol (Jul 18, 2007)

crushing said:


> Getting away from the content of the disparaging rant, I think the real purpose behind that website may be to get the TaeKwonDoTimes.com people to pony up some chon and purchase the domain from him.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=define+cybersquatting



After reading the article......I agree.  This looks less like a scholarly debate and more like someone trying to extort money from the real TKD times by showing TKD in a bad light.

For that matter...the cybersquatter could very well be a disgruntled TKDer that lost at a tourney.  :lol:


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## bluemtn (Jul 18, 2007)

There are so many anti- TKDers out there, it's hard telling who actually wrote it...  Sadly many of them never experienced a couple of classes (at the very least) to get a better idea as to what TKD is really about (or had some real bad expericences, too).  Sure, it might not be all that old, and there are quite a few schools out there that has it's main focus as sport!  Does either one of those things make it less or not at all a martial art?  To me? No! 

Definitely an interesting article, but seriously one- sided, and a bit bashing.


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## crushing (Jul 18, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> After reading the article......I agree. This looks less like a scholarly debate and more like someone trying to extort money from the real TKD times by showing TKD in a bad light.
> 
> For that matter...the cybersquatter could very well be a disgruntled TKDer that lost at a tourney. :lol:


 
Perhaps he couldn't get promoted in TKD!  Hey, but at least he made 10th degree in his own school.

Based on the whois record for the domain, my assumption is that the author runs a karate school that competes with TKD schools for students.  Put that together with the cybersquatting and it would appear the money is a driving force for such exagerations and disparaging commentary.  And he complains in point 5 of his anti-TKD manifesto that TKD promotes cockiness and rudeness!?!


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## Kwan Jang (Jul 18, 2007)

I've seen some "interesting people" in the arts before, but this guy has reached new levels. Though there are some schools (McDojo/McDojangs) that sell belts and have little as far as real requirements, but should a guy who promoted himself to 10th dan be throwing the first stone? Of course, after his Hitler comparisons, what more needs to be said?


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## crushing (Jul 18, 2007)

tkdgirl said:


> There are so many anti- TKDers out there, *it's hard telling who actually wrote it.*.. Sadly many of them never experienced a couple of classes (at the very least) to get a better idea as to what TKD is really about (or had some real bad expericences, too). Sure, it might not be all that old, and there are quite a few schools out there that has it's main focus as sport! Does either one of those things make it less or not at all a martial art? To me? No!
> 
> Definitely an interesting article, but seriously one- sided, and *a bit bashing*.


 
Follow the whois record for the domain for a pretty good idea.  The owner's own website says many of the same things (http://www.genshinkidojo.com/questionsandanswers/qandapage.html).  

Yeah, it's just a 'bit' bashing.


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## Steel Tiger (Jul 18, 2007)

Definitely a man on a mission.  And that mission would appear to be self promotion.  Gotta agree with Kwan Jang, the Hitler reference was a bit much.


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## Independent_TKD (Jul 18, 2007)

I am absolutely sick of the TKD haters out there. In my area, a local MMA school criticizes TKD in its yellow pages add for crying out loud! Websites like Bullshido.com have a grand old time bashing TKD. It's really ridiculous. 

As far as TKD goes, at least practitioners have to follow some kind of prescribed curriculum. I see UFC wannabe thugs opening up schools all over the place. Go figure. TKD is getting bashed by a bunch of jacks-of-all-trades, masters-of-none!


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## Anywilds (Jul 18, 2007)

> *5. Tae Kwon Do is Karate - False* - even though the founders of these Kwans trained in Japanese styles, it is it's own transformation and a 100% sport. Again in the early and mid 1980's when Tae Kwon do's martial arts regulation failed in NJ and was not passed, *they decided to use other misleading marketing to purposefully confuse the public.* They began putting "Karate" on the Dojangs (Tae kwon Do schools) and "Self Defense" with no other reference to Tae Kwon Do until someone actually signed up for classes. Very deceptive snd not proper to lie to the public, but who will say anything - it's america! Finally in the late 1980's and early 1990's they went further by Naming the schools "Martial arts academy". They even changed the name of existing schools so that the name would have the words Martial art in it. They also began using slogans like "Say no to drugs and yes to Tae Kwon Do" or "The Martial arts are for everyone" then using the 7 Virtues of Bushido to help promote (Courage, honor, Justice, Courtesy, truthfulness, Benevolence & Loyalty) - It is excellent that they wanted to use the 7 virtues but *ONLY* if they really intended on teaching it as well, when you promote cockiness, allow rudeness, are only out for more money and do not discipline or try to teach the virtues - what good is it to mention it? It was used only to get students in to sign up because it sounds good when marketing. Tae kwon Do is the furthest thing from a Martial art and to see False marketing to deceive the public and create revenue makes me feel ill, as it has for almost 30 years.


 
He forgot to throw in that after the regulation failed Tae Kwon Do funded a series of movies in the 1980's called "Karate Kid" in order to purposefully grow the interest in Martial Arts. Since they had all ready deceitfully changed the names of every school in the US, popularity of Tae Kwon Do was on the rise. Even though no one knew it was actually Tae Kwon Do.:boing2:

He also complained about Wikipedia - well how about naming a website devoted against the ttle of the site? Why not just be a real man and have a website like www.TaeKwonDo-is-not-Martial-Arts.com (Not an actual site - I think)

I guess as I get a little older I do not let myself get bent out of shape from a fanatics view point. I am just living my life, trying to be happy and enjoying the good times. Taking TKD wether it is a martial art, sport, jazzercize, yoga, pillates or whatever he wants to call - it is still very enjoyable to me. I respect my instructor and her ability, and at this point that is what matters. I am learning and progressing and getting in just a little better shape each month. Just my 2 cents from a newbie.


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## Carol (Jul 18, 2007)

Anywilds said:


> Why not just be a real man and have a website like www.TaeKwonDo-is-not-Martial-Arts.com (Not an actual site - I think)




Because there is no profit in that.  He's aiming to have TKD times pony up some cash to shut up that domain name.


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## Boomer (Jul 18, 2007)

Please forgive my ignorance...

I was under the impression (far before reading this article) that TKD is a "martial sport".  There is nothing wrong with that.  I participate in MMA and various forms of kickboxing, and I know that it is a sport.  It is performed in a controlled environment with a referee, a timer, a doctor, etc.

Though I do agree the "hitler" thing is hard to swallow, I am unsure what the argument is here.


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## Kacey (Jul 19, 2007)

Boomer said:


> Please forgive my ignorance...
> 
> I was under the impression (far before reading this article) that TKD is a "martial sport".  There is nothing wrong with that.  I participate in MMA and various forms of kickboxing, and I know that it is a sport.  It is performed in a controlled environment with a referee, a timer, a doctor, etc.
> 
> Though I do agree the "hitler" thing is hard to swallow, I am unsure what the argument is here.



TKD is a martial art, like many of the other martial arts currently practiced.  It has a sporting aspect, also like many of the other martial arts currently practiced.  That TKD has a sporting aspect does not mean it has ceased to be a martial art - although that is what the author is arguing.


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## DArnold (Jul 19, 2007)

crushing said:


> For a sense of perspective and more information on Master Christian Whitney, pioneer and Grand Master 10th Degree Black belt of Genshinryu and likely author of the site not to confused with TaeKwonDo Times, his school's website is at http://www.genshinkidojo.com/ as well as his bio at http://www.dojos.com/genshinkidojo/index.htm
> 
> I just want to briefly point out a few things.
> 
> ...


 

When does a Martial art become a Martial art?
Quite simple actually.
Descarte - I think, therefore I am.
At what point did TKD become a martial art - at day one!
An organization is, because it is!

This sounds the same as those who think knowledge and respect are tied to a belt. Juniors usually look for some single answer, line drawn in the sand litmus test. (I still call my instructor Sir even though he doesn't have his belt on. When he takes his Belt off he somehow, does not lose any knowledge or ability. If you get kicked out, or leave an organization at what time do you loose all your knowledge?)

Those who tout "it is" from the roof tops are usually trying to prove their validity or gain security about what they do.

Those who tout "it isn't" are usually trying to sell something or are insecure in what they do.


*Now I have a bigger bone to pick.*
*If TKD is taking over the world and making all this money.*
*Shouldn't I have at least gotten a cupon?*

WHOA


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## Miles (Jul 19, 2007)

DArnold said:


> Those who tout "it isn't" are usually trying to sell something or are insecure in what they do.


 
Amen Brother Arnold! 

Miles


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## Balrog (Jul 19, 2007)

Amusing article.  Full of sour grapes by the bucketfull.  It sounds like it was written by someone who failed his testing for yellow belt.


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## DArnold (Jul 19, 2007)

Miles said:


> Amen Brother Arnold!
> 
> Miles


 
You know there are TKD organizations out there that have added a sixth tenet.

Courtsey, Integrity...
.
..
...
...
....
.....
......


SHOW ME THE MONEY


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## Boomer (Jul 29, 2007)

> TKD is a martial art, like many of the other martial arts currently practiced. It has a sporting aspect, also like many of the other martial arts currently practiced. That TKD has a sporting aspect does not mean it has ceased to be a martial art - although that is what the author is arguing.


 
I'm going to continue to stir the pot...surprise.  Just for the sake of argument and my own curiosity...what makes it a martial art?  Is it used in battle?  Do you learn to fight in street clothes?  Are you taught to maim or kill if necessary?

I recently went to a 3 day camp and met some pretty hardcore fellows who study pencak silat.  Every technique they showed ended in killing or maiming your opponent, especially the bladed weaponry.  
There was a kali group there (I think their school was called Sayoc) and they were borderline militia.  All of their techniques were geared toward pure survival and/or killing the opponent.

Those were some intense martial artists.

Honestly I really want to understand why so many are upset about this...is it just a problem of semantics?

You may proceed with the flameage


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## exile (Jul 29, 2007)

Boomer said:


> I'm going to continue to stir the pot...surprise.  Just for the sake of argument and my own curiosity...what makes it a martial art?  Is it used in battle?  Do you learn to fight in street clothes?  Are you taught to maim or kill if necessary?



This whole question is getting a little stale, from repetition (it's been chewed over in many prior threads)... but consider this: TKD is the only martial art that was ever made the national standard for an entire military. It was the military H2H  combative system of the RoK in two horrific wars, in which it was successful enough that in the Vietnam war, the Viet Cong field command directed VC troops to avoid hostile engagement with RoK soldiers _at all costs_, specifically because of the latter's skill in TKD (an interesting fact reported in _Time_ magazine in a 1966 issue, documented in Stuart Anslow's recent book on bunkai for the ITF tuls). It is, as I say, the only TMA fighting system, so far as I know, to have been taught to an entire national military cadre. And those techs are still there, latent, in TKD patterns. At the Battle of Tra Binh Dong, in 1967, the 11th Division RoK Marines shattered an assault by a much larger North Vietnamese force, repelling them with heavy casualties in a day of savage close-quarter fighting in which many of the enemy were killed by empty-hand techs (Anslow's book also includes a description of the battle that appeared in the US Marine Corps newsletter during that same year). And in both wars, the RoK Tiger commando units were feared, and justly so, by enemy combatants, in large part because of their skill in lethal CQ combat. I really don't see what more anyone could reasonably ask for!



Boomer said:


> II recently went to a 3 day camp and met some pretty hardcore fellows who study pencak silat.  Every technique they showed ended in killing or maiming your opponent, especially the bladed weaponry.  There was a kali group there (I think their school was called Sayoc) and they were borderline militia.  All of their techniques were geared toward pure survival and/or killing the opponent.



Let me put this as delicately as I can: whatever the techs you're talking about were `geared toward', the RoK military actually left around 250 dead NV soldiers on the Tra Binh Dong battlefield, many of them with necks broken as a result of their bad judgment in deciding to engage the RoK forces in CQ combat. And the RoK forces did the same kind of thing repeatedly in both the Korean and Vietnam wars in smaller actions. If you want battlefield efficiency and killing capability, TKD has a track record with very few rivals. 



Boomer said:


> Those were some intense martial artists.



No doubt. But I don't see how the Korean development of karate which TKD and Tang Soo Do represent is negatively reflected upon by the fact that there are intense FMAists. 



Boomer said:


> Honestly I really want to understand why so many are upset about this...is it just a problem of semantics?



I'm not sure what `this' is intended to refer to. If it's a matter of people supposedly being upset about other people's often severe misconceptions of the street efficacy that TKD can deliver... no, I really don't think that's true. People are misinformed about all sorts of things, but all that means is that they're unaware of the actual state of affairs. People who know what kind of damage TKD (or any of the other karate-based arts, for that matter) can inflict on an attacker are probably going to roll their eyes and shake their heads at some of the views held by people who don't know better, but what's to be upset about? 

As far as `semantics' goes... the semantics of a sentence is simply what that sentence means. I don't see how this can be an issue in the current discussion. TKD is a martial art in precisely the same sense that Shito-ryu, or Gojo-ryu, or Shotokan, or Isshin-ryu, or any of the other kinds of karate are, of any of the CMAs or FMAs for that matter: a systematic set of fighting techniques. How does semantics enter into the discussion? 



Boomer said:


> You may proceed with the flameage



Why would anyone _flame_ any of this, Boomer? What's at issue is a matter of fact, and the fact is that TKD as a skill set contains techniques that can be brutally effective, or even lethally so, in self-defense apps. Does everyone who studies TKD  _train_ it like that? No way. Does everyone who studies Shotokan train it like that? No way. Does everyone who studies Silat/Arnis/Southern Mantis/.... train it like that? No way. But it's there, if you train it for that purpose. 

So what's at issue?


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## FieldDiscipline (Jul 29, 2007)

Exile, I always enjoy your posts.  

Not least of all because I wish I'd said that!


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## exile (Jul 29, 2007)

Much appreciated, FD!


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## Makalakumu (Jul 29, 2007)

Even Olympic TKD is a martial art.  This sport draws on many different combat traditions and it has innovated a whole bunch of techniques that make it really exciting to do and watch.  Even though it has a greatly reduced applicability in CQ combat, I think that it remains a martial art in much the same way kendo does.


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## exile (Jul 29, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Even Olympic TKD is a martial art.  This sport draws on many different combat traditions and it has innovated a whole bunch of techniques that make it really exciting to do and watch.  Even though it has a greatly reduced applicability in CQ combat, I think that it remains a martial art in much the same way kendo does.



I agree. There's a spectrum here. You're right to underscore the point that it's not an either/or thing, that there's a kind of continuous gradation from the Krav Maga end of things to, well, the kendo end. (I myself think that the line ends before you get to sumo... but I could be wrong about that!)


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## Boomer (Jul 29, 2007)

Exile, 
Very informative!  I appreciate your tolerance of my lack of knowledge of the art.  Thank you for breaking it down in detail.  I had no knowledge of the military applications and such.  



> As far as `semantics' goes... the semantics of a sentence is simply what that sentence means. I don't see how this can be an issue in the current discussion. TKD is a martial art in precisely the same sense that Shito-ryu, or Gojo-ryu, or Shotokan, or Isshin-ryu, or any of the other kinds of karate are, of any of the CMAs or FMAs for that matter: a systematic set of fighting techniques. How does semantics enter into the discussion?


 
The semantics I was referring to was the question of the term "martial art".  The definitions of which are varied from one person to another, not to mention one dictionary to another.  




> Even Olympic TKD is a martial art. This sport draws on many different combat traditions and it has innovated a whole bunch of techniques that make it really exciting to do and watch. Even though it has a greatly reduced applicability in CQ combat, I think that it remains a martial art in much the same way kendo does.


 
This though, I have to completely disagree with.  Martial sport, definitely, but not martial art.  I've tried kendo before, and the instructor there also taught iaido/kenjutsu.  He made distinctions between the two that one was the sport of fencing, the other was an art of killing.

Even I recognize that my training in MMA is a martial sport.  There is a controlled environment, a referee, limited  legal techniques, etc.  Could it translate to martial art for defense "out there"?  Sure.  Is that its intended purpose?  Nope.

My whole thing is: you _DO_ what you _TRAIN_. 
 If you train to fight in a cage, you probably won't be using eye gouges and groin shots in a real altercation, because your reactions are what you've recorded in your muscle memory and training.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 29, 2007)

Your last point there is a good one, *Boomer* :tup:

That's not to imply that your other points are not good too, just that I'm responding to that bit .

"you DO what you TRAIN" is certainly true but it is also true that the more that you train changes what you can do.

This is where, as far as I see it, those who detest kata are not fully grasping the nettle (this is on topic, bear with me).  If you perceive kata as a sequence of techniques that is executed with precision each and every time, regardless of circumstance, then the obvious conclusion is that kata are useless because that particular circumstance will hardly ever arise in the real world.

However, kata, in time, are the vehicle that ingrain techniques into spinal reflex but do not, if your teacher trains you well, ingrain the sequence.  So, when it comes to a real, blood and teeth, fight, you employ the fragments of kata that you need in that circumstance.

That's the whole point of training i.e. that you use what is necessary when it is necessary without the slow-mo forebrain having to get involved.

This applies just as well to those arts that are somewhat denegrated as 'sports' rather than 'arts' (I said I'd get back to the topic ).  If trained properly, then someone who is a student of a 'sport' can kick-butt just as well as one who is a student of an 'art'.  It's the _trained properly_ part which is the key.

Rote repetition of moves will not suffice without visualisation.  A martial-sport practitioner who trains with visualisation is just as capable of applying their techniques on the fly with a "Non-Broken-Nose" as the prize as anyone else.  

It's a question of intent and application.  A kick to the head in competition is a practical solution to scoring points.  A kick to the knee in a dark alley is a practical solution to not getting *your* head kicked in.  Regardless of whether you train in an art or a sport, the ability to make that change of focus is down to the person rather than what they study.


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## Boomer (Jul 29, 2007)

> It's a question of intent and application. A kick to the head in competition is a practical solution to scoring points. A kick to the knee in a dark alley is a practical solution to not getting *your* head kicked in. Regardless of whether you train in an art or a sport, the ability to make that change of focus is down to the person rather than what they study.


 

Well said.


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## arnisador (Jul 29, 2007)

There's a lot to agree with in the (strident) article, and also material that's exaggerated. I'm always glad to see someone be honest about the relatively brief history of TKD as a separate art from Karate.

As to martial art vs. martial sport, I feel it's more the latter than the former but I know it is the former to some, the latter to others, and both to many...and I don't find anything at all odd about that.


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## exile (Jul 29, 2007)

Boomer said:


> Exile,
> Very informative!  I appreciate your tolerance of my lack of knowledge of the art.  Thank you for breaking it down in detail.  I had no knowledge of the military applications and such.



I don't think your post reflected lack of knowledge of the art itself, Boomer; I'd never say that. The military history of TKD is something different, and it hasn't been well publicizedcertainly, the contemporary RoK government agencies that have driven TKD's public `persona' in the tournament competition direction haven't dwelt very much on this aspect of its history. The reason why it's important, though, is that if you look at the text which this whole thread is based on, the `TKD smokecreen' text, it's quite clear that the author, whoever s/he is, is actually unaware of this history. The extreme claims that are made there overlook this important aspect of TKD's history, and that fact alone undercuts the essay's credibility to a substantial degree. My feeling is, if you're going to say, `X isn't Y and never has been', as the author of that essay does, you really had better know the history of X in detail, well enought to be sure of that claimor you're going wind up with egg on your face. That's why it doesn't reflect badly in the least on you that you were unfamiliar with this phase of TKD's historyas I say, many TKD practitioners aren'tbut it _does_ reflect badly on the chap who wrote the `smokescreen' essay. He's making strong claims about TKD's history, apparently without enough background knowledge to do so accurately. That kind of thing comes back to bite you...





Boomer said:


> The semantics I was referring to was the question of the term "martial art".  The definitions of which are varied from one person to another, not to mention one dictionary to another.



Right, I see what you were getting at. I think, if you look at the technical core of TKD, you'll notice that it does share a huge proportion of techniques with its Shotokan ancestor, and has a common strategic core, which is recoverable from a careful `deciphering' of the hyungs. As I say, not everyone trains TKD that way, and this has led I think to the main confusionidentifying the whole art with just one manifestation (admittedly, a very lucrative, highly publicized manifestion) of its skill setthe WTF Olympic-rules tournament version. But there are plenty of other ways to do TKD. And as I say, sport karate, to say nothing of the XMA manifestation of karate, represent parallel developments to the skewing of TKD's combat content for ring point-scoring purposes. My own sense is (there was a big thread debate about this general question a few months ago), TKD is a `martial art' under most reasonably nonsectarian definitions of the expression.






Boomer said:


> This though, I have to completely disagree with.  Martial sport, definitely, but not martial art.  I've tried kendo before, and the instructor there also taught iaido/kenjutsu.  He made distinctions between the two that one was the sport of fencing, the other was an art of killing.



I'm way out of my depth on kendo; I'll defer to others hereI happen to think that the do/jutsu distinction is probably a sharper and more pointed distinction than the art/sport distinction in terms of self-defense applicability. Kendo is definitely a -do activity; there are other -do systems which I think can be trained as jutsusTKD being one, TSD being a closely related other one, and the same for what used to be called `karate-do', now just `karate'. It's the training conditions that determine the degree of application to combat effectiveness.



Boomer said:


> Even I recognize that my training in MMA is a martial sport.  There is a controlled environment, a referee, limited  legal techniques, etc.  Could it translate to martial art for defense "out there"?  Sure.  Is that its intended purpose?  Nope.
> 
> My whole thing is: you _DO_ what you _TRAIN_.
> 
> If you train to fight in a cage, you probably won't be using eye gouges and groin shots in a real altercation, because your reactions are what you've recorded in your muscle memory and training.



There is indeed widespread agreement on this point, at least here on MT! I think that people are increasingly coming to understand that the way in which you train a fighting system, and the conditions you assume, are crucial for determining the SD usefulness of that system. 



Sukerkin said:


> Your last point there is a good one, *Boomer* :tup:
> 
> That's not to imply that your other points are not good too, just that I'm responding to that bit .
> 
> ...



Sukerkin's post here reflects my own views about all this: every fighting system contains a technical core which, trained for SD purposes, can probably be ramped up into a full-fledged effective fighting system. You can't be totally unrealistic about it; you need to modify the techs of your art to the appropriate fighting range, for sure. But the most serious mistake of the `smokescreen' essay, I believe, is that it denies the possibility of using the technical core of TKD (which is still very similar to that of various styles of karate that gave rise to it) in a street-effective way at close quarters. It overlooks not only the military history of TKD, but the more general point you yourself made about training and doingthe idea that if you want your art to do something for you, you can indeed achieve that, but you have to gear your training to that objective.


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## DArnold (Jul 30, 2007)

Boomer said:


> I'm going to continue to stir the pot...surprise. Just for the sake of argument and my own curiosity...what makes it a martial art? Is it used in battle? Do you learn to fight in street clothes? Are you taught to maim or kill if necessary?
> 
> I recently went to a 3 day camp and met some pretty hardcore fellows who study pencak silat. Every technique they showed ended in killing or maiming your opponent, especially the bladed weaponry.
> There was a kali group there (I think their school was called Sayoc) and they were borderline militia. All of their techniques were geared toward pure survival and/or killing the opponent.
> ...


 

No flameage,
Do you understand why many arts changed their name.

Jujitsu - Judo
Kenjitsu - Kendo...

Study what many of those came before us learned.
Study why jitsu to do!


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## zDom (Aug 1, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> However, kata, in time, are the vehicle that ingrain techniques into spinal reflex but do not, if your teacher trains you well, ingrain the sequence.  So, when it comes to a real, blood and teeth, fight, you employ the fragments of kata that you need in that circumstance.



I wish more people understood this about kata/poomsea/hyung.


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## wade (Aug 2, 2007)

Dis-gruntled. Being an ex-postal worker (27 years), I think maybe I am an authority on being disgruntled. OK, never mind, I just got so wrapped up on how I am so upset at the USPS I forgot what I was talking about here. 

Wait, oh, yeah, TKD being a national sport versus a martial art. hmmm. so, what is karate? Japanese, What is Kung fu, Chinese, what is escrima, Filipino. Does it really matter whether it is a national sport or a Martial Art? Besides, who can really tell the difference?  As long as you enjoy it and it enables you to kick some butt, well...............................?


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Aug 4, 2007)

crushing said:


> For a sense of perspective and more information on Master Christian Whitney, pioneer and Grand Master 10th Degree Black belt of Genshinryu and likely author of the site not to confused with TaeKwonDo Times, his school's website is at http://www.genshinkidojo.com/ as well as his bio at http://www.dojos.com/genshinkidojo/index.htm


This guys school is the town next to mine.  He shouldn't complain about any organization being out for money.  Did you see his pricing for lessons?:erg: http://www.genshinkidojo.com/classesfees/classesfeespage.html:erg:


> *Copywriten content removed at request of copyright holder*


BTW, for those who don't know, I don't study or teach TKD.  I understand the distinction between Martial Sport and Self Defense and while it does seem to me that most TKD falls under the sport classification, I would say that both Martial Sports and Self Defense could be classified as Martial Arts.

I know there are alot of arguments for and against Martial Sports and Sparring.  Both sides of the argument have very valid points.  In my opinion both are wrong and both are right.  Kind of a yin yang thing happening here.  Personally, I mainly study apects of self-defense but I see the benefit of trying your skills at speed on a resistant opponent.  Failing to do this, you could be in for a surprise when you try your dojo moves on the street or get hit for the 1st time.  Periodic, sparring or sporting is beneficial to real world self defense skills but exclusively training for competition could ingrain dangerous habits for the street.

While there are a good number of schools that fall into the extreme ends of the argument.  Many schools have a blend of both aspects to the art.  Most of the bickering among Martial Artists is really about what percentage of the time is put into Self Defense vs Sparring/Sport and also what degree of intensity should each be trained with.

_Don Flatt


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## BrandiJo (Aug 4, 2007)

I do not know enough history to know if this is true... 50 bc ... meh was never part of my schools curriculum. I do however know that what (at least to me) changes it from a sport to an art is the intent... So yes the black belt factories and the McDojos are sport and are play, but if you find a real school, and really train, and really work your butt, and you actually learn something then its an Art. ​


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## wade (Aug 4, 2007)

BrandiJo, I consider my school "sport taekwondo" but please never doubt the intent is not there. I think we do every thing a traditional school does except we actually like to "hit" our opponent. Trembling impact has such a nice sound to it, don't you think? So yes, I think of our system as an art. Come play sometime and you will see what I mean....


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 8, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> This guys school is the town next to mine. He shouldn't complain about any organization being out for money. Did you see his pricing for lessons?:erg: http://www.genshinkidojo.com/classesfees/classesfeespage.html:erg:
> 
> BTW, for those who don't know, I don't study or teach TKD. I understand the distinction between Martial Sport and Self Defense and while it does seem to me that most TKD falls under the sport classification, I would say that both Martial Sports and Self Defense could be classified as Martial Arts.
> 
> ...


 

Greetings neighbor!

I will kindly ask you to remove my name and business relations from this thread. Why is this a personal attack against my business?
I think this may have been done innocently, or on purpose. We all have to remember though - this is against the law to slander a business because of ones own belief or reasons. You can't mention the business name or my name. Why did you? I'm curious.

If anyone has questions, feel free to contact me via email or calling the business. Please don't come off half cocked at me though. lol - you will all have me sleeping with shuriken under my pillows. 

I actually have some of the lowest rates in the state of NJ, in addition to numerous discounts for many people. We are talking about Private and semi-private rates, not 50 people in a group class. (20 years ago I paid $120 an hour for private lessons, I currently have the rate 40.00 less then that and nave numerous discounts)

I don't wish to discuss my perspectives regarding Martial arts and Martial sports via blog or discussion thread. Please respect my discisson on this and email me or email first and then call (so I will accept the call). 

I have simply logged on tonight to ask all of you to please have the respect to not list my Dojo and name in this thread or any others without first asking me.  I don't think that is too much to ask. It would be greatly appreciated.  I teach the Martial Arts with integrity and am 100% anti MMA and sport. It is not what the Martial arts are about. I feel MMA are a disgrace to the Martial arts. That's MMA (as a sportist event as it always is) - that's not training in other styles over a period of a couple decades. I am referring to someone rushing to train in 5 styles in 10 months and then competing. If I am shot for my own beliefs, perspectives and teaching ways then so be it. I will not simply go along with something because everyone else is.  "Of course.." sometimes it would be alot easier living I'm sure, since I have Martial sportist threatening and slandering me everyday because I wish to teach the essence. 

this topic about the billion dollar smokescreen, I wish not to reply to on this forum right now. I really have nothing to say about it.
and if anyone is curious I will say one thing "yes.. I wrote the Candy Store owner story" - This is all I have to say at the moment about that website.

Arigato 

Christian Whitney


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## exile (Aug 8, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> this topic about the billion dollar smokescreen, I wish not to reply to on this forum right now. I really have nothing to say about it.
> and if anyone is curious I will say one thing "yes.. I wrote the Candy Store owner story" - This is all I have to say at the moment about that website.
> 
> Arigato
> ...



So the question, Mr. Whitney, is, _are_ you the author of that piece about the $1,000,000,000 smokescreen, or aren't you? If you are, then it seems to me that any scrutiny of your own business practices, in relation to the content of that piece, might not be altogether out of line. And in light of the OP, I'm sure there are plenty of us, many of whom have done a lot of research on the documented history of TKD, including its military applications, who would welcome a chance to pose some questions to you about the content of that piece. Whereas if you aren't the author, then no, you shouldn't come into the discussion. Can you enlighten us on whether you are or aren't?


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 8, 2007)

exile said:


> So the question, Mr. Whitney, is, _are_ you the author of that piece about the $1,000,000,000 smokescreen, or aren't you? If you are, then it seems to me that any scrutiny of your own business practices, in relation to the content of that piece, might not be altogether out of line. And in light of the OP, I'm sure there are plenty of us, many of whom have done a lot of research on the documented history of TKD, including its military applications, who would welcome a chance to pose some questions to you about the content of that piece. Whereas if you aren't the author, then no, you shouldn't come into the discussion. Can you enlighten us on whether you are or aren't?


 

Exile..

You are a Senior Master here on Martial talk.

please don't take this is a bad way, but here is my lesson for you today..

ask yourself this "what part of please have the respect to take my information off" and "please respect my wishes that I do not want to talk about this on a discussion board"

don't you understand.. lol

this is 100% lack of discipline. you want your way and it has to be right now regardless of my kind request.

therefore - "no, I will not answer your question"

once AGAIN - I will state - if you want to talk to me have the courage to do so on an email or the phone.

remember, I am not going to try and convince you of anything so I don't understand what you want to know. I already mentioned I am the author on the story on that website.

email... and be patient.. 

I may have sounded nasty in my above comments, but I think we all dislike when people ignore what you say and show no discipline. So I am sorry for coming accross a little rude, but READ what I wrote - lol come on now!!

Master Christian Whitney
(sorry saying Master does not imply one has slaves)


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## exile (Aug 8, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Exile..
> 
> You are a Senior Master here on Martial talk.
> 
> ...



Mr. Whitney, I'm talking to you right now, in public, so to speak. Why you think it would take an act of courage to email you or phone you or PM you, I cannot imagine.  And in response to my very simple, direct, straightforward question, when we remove the various bits of prose from your post that don't bear on anything of substance, you posted the bit in bold I've cited above.

I think I can safely draw some relevant conclusions about your relationship to the text reported in the OP, and I think the other members of the board canand very likely willdo so as well. :wink1:

BTW, this is a seriously moderated board, and any member who feels that any of the posts so far violate the board's TOS is welcome to contact a senior member of staff, in particular the Admin staff, and request that the post that member objects to be edited, deleted or otherwise modified. There is no guarantee, of course, that that request will be accomodated.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 8, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> This guys school is the town next to mine. He shouldn't complain about any organization being out for money. Did you see his pricing for lessons?:erg: http://www.genshinkidojo.com/classesfees/classesfeespage.html:erg:
> 
> BTW, for those who don't know, I don't study or teach TKD. I understand the distinction between Martial Sport and Self Defense and while it does seem to me that most TKD falls under the sport classification, I would say that both Martial Sports and Self Defense could be classified as Martial Arts.
> 
> ...


 
** added for Mr. Don Flatt **
You have good points, but again you must not have read my website thouroughly..
I have trained my entire life.. sports will get you killed Mr. Flatt. "as in a bullet in the head dead" on the street.
I train my students realistically in self defense drills and sparring from grappling to any armed or unarmed attack.
Did you know TKD doesn't allow you to punch to the head. so someone with 10 years TKD will be instantly distroyed. Same factor with any sport. 
What I ask is to kindly research before badmouthing a business. 
I have no problem publicly speaking and voicing my perspectives. Because I don't compete and train my students to have enormous egos does not mean they train in simple stop, block and punch movements.

People who are sportist, simply do not wish to understand and want it all.. I will not waste my time on such individuals unless they really do want to lean a Martial art. EGO gets checked in at the door. 

I'd gladly talk with you in a friendly manner over tea or coffee sometime.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 8, 2007)

exile said:


> Mr. Whitney, I'm talking to you right now, in public, so to speak. Why you think it would take an act of courage to email you or phone you or PM you, I cannot imagine. And in response to my very simple, direct, straightforward question, when we remove the various bits of prose from your post that don't bear on anything of substance, you posted the bit in bold I've cited above.
> 
> I think I can safely draw some relevant conclusions about your relationship to the text reported in the OP, and I think the other members of the board can&#8212;and very likely will&#8212;do so as well. :wink1:
> 
> BTW, this is a seriously moderated board, and any member who feels that any of the posts so far violate the board's TOS is welcome to contact a senior member of staff, in particular the Admin staff, and request that the post that member objects to be edited, deleted or otherwise modified. There is no guarantee, of course, that that request will be accomodated.


 
Mr. Exile Senior Master,

I have viewed your profile earlier and kept my comments to myself, but I may say so open and publicly now sir - your TKD training has surely surfaced.

Your actions are that of a troll (I beleive that is what they call them). A troll that baits one in by badmouthing a business. Thus - making me come here publically to have the slanderous information removed. But you ignore many times the simple fact that I kindly asked you to call or email me with any questions.

Can you really tell the world publically now sir.. can you tell everyone the "ART" which you learned such discipline and respect for other human beings. 

you openly and public disrepected my kind requests, lacked discipline by continuing to ignore me and my requests and have the temerity to ask again.  All too common, as before I even looked at your profile, I felt your negitivity - spit that candy out!! lol (a bad joke, no doubt)

I was involved in the website SIR. That is all I have to say. you are like a child that stomps his feet to get his own way regardless of what the parent or person says.

May I ask your age if you don't mind. A simple question for a question exchange. It honestly doesn't matter if your 9 years old or 59 years old. I'm curious though.

My educated guess is that this message board helps in inflating your EGO and that is why you simply ignored my requests. Anyone with any common courtesy at all would have emailed me. However, your TKD EGO simply would not let you drop it. Do you know that on the street exile.. on the street it would have cost you your life.. 

Think.. you can't even drop a simple topic. Which I was more then happy to answer you.. by EMAIL or PHONE. but you could not drop it and continued.  I don't care if you have 15 years TKD and 5 years something else.. your actions shown here would have you dropped on the street by some thug out there. 

I wish you the best exile and hope you find the way.

Master Christian Whitney


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## exile (Aug 8, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Mr. Exile Senior Master,
> 
> I have viewed your profile earlier and kept my comments to myself, but I may say so open and publicly now sir - your TKD training has surely surfaced.



Yes, I train TKD, a version which teaches CQ combat techs involving throat and head strikes with elbows, forearms and knifehands, as well as neck-breaks via head twist and all manner of thing. And there are many more like me out there. I suggest that you look back over the prior thread discussion to fill in some aspects of TKD's history that you seem to have overlooked.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> you openly and public disrepected my kind requests, lacked discipline by continuing to ignore me and my requests and have the temerity to ask again.  All too common, as before I even looked at your profile, I felt your negitivity - spit that candy out!! lol (a bad joke, no doubt)



Correction: a text was reported in the OP, it was attributed to you, you contacted the board to ask that a subesequent post be removed, and refused to answer a very pertinent question about your relation to the original text&#8212;a relation with a significant bearing on the post you want removed. I repeated the question. You refused to answer, and you're still refusing to answer.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> I was involved in the website SIR. That is all I have to say.


 
Ah, _there_ we go. Not really an answer, but yes: you were involved in the website. I had a hunch that was the case...



GenshinKiDojo said:


> May I ask your age if you don't mind. A simple question for a question exchange.



No problem, Mr. Whitney. I was 60 years old in March, I've taught university for thirty-plus years, and I'm familiar with just about every single way people try to avoid answering questions when they either don't know the answer or prefer to not _provide_ the answer. Does that help?

Meanwhile, if you wish to have any of the posts removed, please see my previous posts about consultation with our senior adminstrative staff. I have to say that whatever your intentions are, I suspect that your posts so far haven't helped your cause.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 8, 2007)

exile said:


> Yes, I train TKD, a version which teaches CQ combat techs involving throat and head strikes with elbows, forearms and knifehands, as well as neck-breaks via head twist and all manner of thing. And there are many more like me out there. I suggest that you look back over the prior thread discussion to fill in some aspects of TKD's history that you seem to have overlooked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Exile,

you have been waiting for someone from that website to come out for awhile.  

How am I refusing to answer? You are a funny man. I answered your question many times already. 

Yes, I said to you numerous times TKD guy - I was involved by writing the story - did you not get it the first time? or second or thrid?

Look over my posts sir and tell me the patience I have had with your disrespect. 

Can you not read sir? or do you selectively choose what you want to see.

You think you know facts on TKD history. Why don't you call Jhoon Rhee? hmnn.. do you think he knows more or less then you?

Are you a TKD pioneer? no.. it's something you practice or teach and got your feathers ruffled by the website.

live with it Exile.. if I didn't agree 100% with the info on the website, I wouldn't have been involved.

tell me this. if you are 60 years old, why wouldn't you email or call me?

does it make you feel big and mighty having people all over the world look at you on this discussion board. I don't like TKD because it's a lying and deceptive sport.

am I not allowed to feel this way? 

If you are a so called professor at whatever university sir, then stop your games and TKD behavour. 

Your really not interested in talking about anything and act like a 15 year old child hiding behind the computer.

look at your arrogant and belligerent attitude thoughout all our online conversations.  

please respect my wishes and leave me alone - you wish to debate with me online. I don't play games exile. So stop your nonsense with this!

you have a question email. If not live with it. At 60 years old you obviously have no manners. that I find hard to believe!

Your a rude and persistant guy. You truely need the Martial arts.

First lessons are patience and courtesy.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 8, 2007)

*This site has numerous policies and rules.

One is an anti fraud busting policy

One is guidelines within acccepted US law concerning fair-use

One is acceptable behavior for our members.


Mr. Whitney, we have removed the copywriten content from the post as requested.  Asking questions concerning a website or individuals is however, not illegal. It is your choice as to if you will answer them in this public medium. You have posted your choice. The community is required to respect your desire to not answer publicly. There is no need to insult or browbeat members of this community or it's staff. If you wish to remain here, I strongly suggest you review our publicly posted rules.  If you have particular legal issue with a particular members posting, we will comply with all properly executed and served court orders for server logs.
*
*
--Bob Hubbard
MartialTalk.com Owner and Administrator*


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## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

Well, I am just a disgraceful MMA type of person.  

But one thing that really bothers me in the martial arts is how some people constantly feel the need to be very loud and declare that everything anyone else does is crap.  Tends to make me wonder what they are doing that makes them constantly feel the need to justify it against what others are doing.

People will train for different reasons, I accept that, and I think most people do.  Yet there always seems to be a few very loud individuals on all sides screaming about how everyone else is teaching garbage and there stuff is the only "real" stuff.

In the end I think schools attract students that suit what they are doing and why.  A school that focuses on the positive aspects of the martial arts across the board will attract open minded students with a healthy attitude.  Schools that go out of there way to put down everything else will attract students with very large ego's, lots of biterness and a need to feel superior over others, regardless of what they are actually doing.  School could really teach anything and give that as the students aren't there for the good features and the learning, but for the "exclusive club" and ego stroking.

"Comic Book Guy" of The Simpsons comes to mind.


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## Miles (Aug 9, 2007)

I generally check out MT during my lunch break so I don't frequently write anything too long.

However, I want to thank Bob for his public service announcement-I have found MT to be a wonderful avenue for discussion of every aspect of the martial arts.

Even though I don't always agree with Exile, I think his questions and tone in this thread were always legitimate and respectful.

Miles
(my $0.02)


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## Sukerkin (Aug 9, 2007)

I concur that I did not see anything that could have caused such an unsettled response from our new member .  

Indeed, I think it's a good thing that *Exile* is such a mature, well spoken, calm demeanoured and professional man, otherwise it could've been "Flamers at dawn!" :lol:.

Pertinent to the matter that caused the temporary lock, isn't it that the case that something published on-line, even if copyrighted, is somewhat akin to public domain as long as references to it are properly credited?  Or am I being ignorant of Data Protection matters (it being a long time since I graduated in Computer Studies ).


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## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> isn't it that the case that something published on-line, even if copyrighted, is somewhat akin to public domain as long as references to it are properly credited?  Or am I being ignorant of Data Protection matters (it being a long time since I graduated in Computer Studies ).




Copyrighted material is copyrighted material no matter how it is published.  The internet blurs the line a little because in order to read anything you have to download (copy) it first.  It furthers blurs the line because of proxies, cache's, indexers and the like, but it does retain its copyright and cannot be republished without permission.

Fair use rules are of course still there though.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 9, 2007)

Cheers *Andy* :tup:.


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## zDom (Aug 9, 2007)

First off, you are dead wrong about Exile.

Secondly, re:



GenshinKiDojo said:


> Did you know TKD doesn't allow you to punch to the head. so someone with 10 years TKD will be instantly distroyed. Same factor with any sport.



You are sadly mistaken if you think all taekwondo is sport taekwondo.

Training TKD for 10+  years didn't inhibit MY ability to punch to the head; it enhanced my ability to do so. And in a self defense situation, I was not "instantly destroyed." My attacker was rendered unconcious with a single punch to the head.

I guess you have never heard of, for example, Pu Gil Gwon, what his job was, and how taekwondo enabled him to be very effective in his job, either, eh?

I agree that there have been misrepresentations about the origins of TKD. But maybe you should do some in-depth research into taekwondo before you support a Website that gives such a narrow, uniformed view of a this art.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 9, 2007)

From Wiki: ""Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, internet blogging and the like, then it is considered libel."

MartialTalk has a posted copyright policy which we enforce (as a number of people will attest to.)

Posting a link to a website is not illegal. If it were, Google would be in big trouble.  Websites regularly link to other websites. No permission is needed, and no laws are broken. Court cases have established the legality of "deep linking" into any page of a website. Take away the ability to link and you take away the basic glue that makes the Web work. You'd have no Yahoo, no Google , no blogs, etc.

Posting a link, referencing the content contained there, and commenting is not illegal. _It may however be defamatory_, which can place the poster in jeopardy, if the subject can prove damages as a result.  If contacted we will comply with court orders. But we don't just hand over records or censor content because someone demanded it. We have told several lawyers and at least 2 law enforcement agencies no due to lack of properly executed paperwork over the years. We've also had several idiots claim to be lawyers contact us. That tends to be bad for them.


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## shesulsa (Aug 9, 2007)

One would have to wonder that if someone doesn't want their page linked to ... why they would have the page up in the first place?


----------



## Kosho Gakkusei (Aug 9, 2007)

I don't feel Mr. Whitney is being fully forthcoming about his involvement with this website.  He claims he "was involved" and "yes.. I wrote the Candy Store owner story" as well as "if I didn't agree 100% with the info on the website, I wouldn't have been involved".  This conveys that he's but a small part of this site but it's domain is registered in his name.  


> Registrar Name....: BlueHost.Com
> Registrar Whois...: whois.bluehost.com
> Registrar Homepage: http://www.bluehost.com/
> 
> ...


My question for Mr. Whitney is: Why are you not being straight forward about this?  Why won't you stand behind your actions?  Why won't you debate the content of the site?

Master Whitney, after looking a little more thoroughly at your prices I do see that all you offer is private and semi-private instruction and the rates are not outlandish for this part of the country.  I appologize as I was under the impression that you charged a minimum of $200 per month for group classes but now I see those classes are limited to 4 students.

I will also say that your behavior towards Exile on this thread has been unbecoming of a Martial Arts Student much less a Master.

_Don Flatt


----------



## terryl965 (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Exile,
> 
> you have been waiting for someone from that website to come out for awhile.
> 
> ...


 

Mr. Whitney Sir,

I will try to ask you a few question if you do not mind, if you have never ever trained in TKD how cah you make the assumption that TKD is only about the sport? Secondly I have meet and had decussion with Exile, he has a lot of info. about TKD combat application and yes I have trained over there in the sixties and seventies so I know first hand what I'm talking about. If you take the time to investigate what TKD was before the sport then you would know, as far as asking Joon Rhee, I have personnally meet him and he can tell you about the combat application as well.

You come on here talking about things you have never experience in my Art and yes I said my Art not sport, I have been training in TKD one way or another for over thirty years and your comments and so call experience lack in the field of my Art. So may I suggest you go back and learn what you think you know and actually find the truth you are seeking.

May I also ask why is this so important to you if the Art or sport of TKD is not in your training diary, are you looking for a grat teacher, are you trying to become better rounded as a person in whole? or the last which you have said to exile are you a troll looking just to cause problems?

My guess it is the latter rather the first.

I wish you peace and harmony in your life.
Train hard and often.
Master Stoker


----------



## Carol (Aug 9, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> One would have to wonder that if someone doesn't want their page linked to ... why they would have the page up in the first place?



Yup.  Sukerkin posed the question about copyrights and public domain...just because something is copyrighted material doesn't mean that it's not public knowledge.  The web is a form of "broadcasting", and unlike major media presentations, its a form that the individual user has complete control over the content.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I don't feel Mr. Whitney is being fully forthcoming about his involvement with this website. He claims he "was involved" and "yes.. I wrote the Candy Store owner story" as well as "if I didn't agree 100% with the info on the website, I wouldn't have been involved". This conveys that he's but a small part of this site but it's domain is registered in his name.
> 
> My question for Mr. Whitney is: Why are you not being straight forward about this? Why won't you stand behind your actions? Why won't you debate the content of the site?
> 
> ...


 
Mr. Flatt,

you can preach what you like to anyone. I am not here in this world to convince anyone of anything. I will however continue to speak and debate the lies that this sickening sport has caused the world.

good luck to you sir


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Yup. Sukerkin posed the question about copyrights and public domain...just because something is copyrighted material doesn't mean that it's not public knowledge. The web is a form of "broadcasting", and unlike major media presentations, its a form that the individual user has complete control over the content.


 
Konee cheee wa Ms.

I have edited this.

anyone want to talk email me.


----------



## Sukerkin (Aug 9, 2007)

Are you actually serious?


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Mr. Whitney Sir,
> 
> I will try to ask you a few question if you do not mind, if you have never ever trained in TKD how cah you make the assumption that TKD is only about the sport? Secondly I have meet and had decussion with Exile, he has a lot of info. about TKD combat application and yes I have trained over there in the sixties and seventies so I know first hand what I'm talking about. If you take the time to investigate what TKD was before the sport then you would know, as far as asking Joon Rhee, I have personnally meet him and he can tell you about the combat application as well.
> 
> ...


 

For the love of God,

With all due respect - you are a senior moderator on this board are you not?

The website www.TaeKwonDoTimes.Net is 100% fact.

if TaeKwondoist don't like it.. I'm sorry! I'm not the one who has lied to the world - ask Jhoon Rhee and any founders that.

people who are brainwashed can believe what they want. Don't harass me about it, I am not a TKD founder that lied and needs to answer for my actions.

I don't wish to argue with TKD people.. 

do what you like, call it whatever you like - Yoga, Kung Fu anything. I will only protect the public by telling them the truth.

am I a troll? 

No that would be mr. Exile and possibly you as well.

Your fellow Taekwondoist are the ones that illegally brought me here. Typical of the lack of discipline the "SPORT" has.

I see it's legal in your eyes to slander a business because your a Taekwondoist right? maybe you should also do some research my friend on business law.
Good luck to you and your studies

if you ever wish to be a civil person and talk like an adult email me and we can have peaceful discussions.


----------



## crushing (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> like I said. I have yet for one TKD person to email me and talk. It's the EGO that needs to be seen on this board.


 
With email does your ego get out of the way?  Do you suddenly become courteous, patient and discplined?  Do you become more like that which you demand of others, but lack in yourself?

Given your insults and poor behavior in this thread, I don't blame anyone for not emailing you and giving up their own email address.  If you do this in a public forum, what should they expect in return in their inbox or on a telephone?


----------



## terryl965 (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Konee cheee wa Ms.
> 
> post what you like. This is a perfect example of Tae kwon Do personality and why the world is actually worse off with this sickening sport.
> 
> ...


 

First off the thread is not close it is open for people to make comments so we are and as for TKD people being childesh you never even answered any of my question. Ask me about TKD or our to embrasses to ask someone with experience and has trained over sea's.

No need to e-mail you when we have a forum to discuss all thing in the open my friend.

So lets talk.


----------



## Kacey (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Konee cheee wa Ms.
> 
> post what you like. This is a perfect example of Tae kwon Do personality and why the world is actually worse off with this sickening sport.



You are welcome to your opinion, as we are welcome to ours.  Apparently, however, you feel that only you are entitled to an opinion.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> Look at your own ego. For the love of God.


 
An interesting statement, given the egotism necessary to state that you - and only you - could possibly be correct.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> How about since this thread was closed last night by the Tae kwon Do Owner Mr. Hubbard. that we leave it alone and closed.


 
Hmm... who keeps responding to this thread?  People are responding to your statements - perhaps if you could stop your insistence on the last word, the thread could have died a quiet death. 



GenshinKiDojo said:


> Anyone wish to continue to be childish and insult me and my business because you can't handle someone else in the world having a dif. perspective or telling the truth about TKD - email me anytime. I'd be thrilled as I always am.



Again... you are welcome to your opinion, and I am welcome to mine.  Your experience with TKD has been poor; mine has been quite good - because of the people I have had the privilege to encounter.  There are good and bad people everywhere - so what?  I have met bad people in TKD, and good people.  I choose to emphasize the positive rather than the negative; you choose to emphasize the negative rather than the positive.  Those who interact with you and are the target of such an opinion on a regular and personal basis have my condolences.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> I can't believe you have the temerity to say anything with your qoute (Peace through strength)
> are you serious Ms?



Yes, I believe she is.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> Tae Kwon do lied to the world for 40 years - anyone want a debate?
> 
> meet me in person and lets debate the facts and video it.
> 
> ...



Hmm... again, people are welcome to their own interpretation of events, a concept that everyone but you seems to be willing to accept.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> excuse me - but childish acts are what got me to this board discussion.
> 
> lying and slandering my business that is typical of any Tae Kwon Doist is why I am here.



You posted a website that was totally outside of and counter to my 20 years of experience in Taekwon-Do, and I (as the original poster) requested commentary.  How is that lying or slandering?

If you are going to create a website with the type of information on it that you do, you should expect that people will question it... and in the same medium as that in which it was presented.  I see no reason why anyone should go out of their way to accommodate you by contacting you personally; you are sufficiently vitriolic here, on a moderated board, that I see no reason why anyone would want to inflict you on themselves in any other venue. 

If you want people to treat you as a rational, reasonable, intelligent adult, then perhaps you should rewrite your posts so that you sound like a rational, reasonable, intelligent adult... right now, you make the 7th grade students I teach look mature, patient, and logical.


----------



## Carol (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Konee cheee wa Ms.
> 
> post what you like. This is a perfect example of Tae kwon Do personality and why the world is actually worse off with this sickening sport.
> 
> ...



Kon'Nichi Wa sir.

There are a few 10th Degree Black Belts out there, like yourself, that have expressed their displeasure with my opinions from time to time...as is there/your right (providing it does not violate MartialTalk's rules).

If you would like to debate, you have the floor sir.  :asian:


----------



## terryl965 (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> For the love of God,
> 
> With all due respect - you are a senior moderator on this board are you not?
> 
> ...


 
Sir with all do respect and yes I'm a senior Mod. but that does not mean I cannot have my opions, I was there in Soul training while my father trained with the ROK military TKD is a form of self defense whether you like it or not. Have you been there? have you trained with some of the old ROK? Have you ever trained in TKD, so all your assumption are just that assumption.

Please have a nice day.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> From Wiki: ""Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, internet blogging and the like, then it is considered libel."
> 
> MartialTalk has a posted copyright policy which we enforce (as a number of people will attest to.)
> 
> ...


 

Mr. Hubbard, 

I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. after all it is your website here.

Can you be the adult of all the TKD people here and if you have anything to say to me contact me instead of being a child like the rest here.

you want discussion on this website about the smokescreen. what is driving you?

in addition WHY? are you attacking me personally?

Tae kwon Doist all lie - that is my perspective.

the facts? Tae Kwon Do was NEVER a Martial art. thats the fact.

The other facts sir? look at

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net


----------



## Kacey (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Mr. Hubbard,
> 
> I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. after all it is your website here.



Indeed, it _is _Bob's site - and Bob runs the best MA bulletin board on the 'net... any other board, and you'd be getting rude, nasty comments full of profanity, instead of polite inquiries that you refuse to answer.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> Can you be the adult of all the TKD people here and if you have anything to say to me contact me instead of being a child like the rest here.



Did you bother to look at Bob's personal profile?  He's studied quite a few arts - but TKD is not one of them.  Apparently that minimal amount of research - to discover that TKD is not in the list of the arts Bob has studied - is beyond you.  To avoid you having to strain your fingers looking, here's the list:  Arnis, Balintawak, Bando, Escrima, Iaido / Kendo / Kenjutsu, J.K.D., Kali, Kempo / Kenpo, Ninjutsu, Taijiquan



GenshinKiDojo said:


> you want discussion on this website about the smokescreen. what is driving you?



Not that I want to speak for Bob... but my guess would be that he wants a balanced, open forum where people are free to discuss their different ideas and perspectives... oh, wait, that's what he *has*.  That means that we are all able to discuss claims rationally... most of us, anyway!  



GenshinKiDojo said:


> in addition WHY? are you attacking me personally?



No one is attacking you personally.  Quite a few people are attacking your opinions and methods - a subtle, but distinct difference.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> Tae kwon Doist all lie - that is my perspective.



As I said previously, you are welcome to your opinion, and I am welcome to mine.  I have met Taekwon-Do practitioners who lie - but I have met practitioners of quite a few other arts who lie as well.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> the facts? Tae Kwon Do was NEVER a Martial art. thats the fact.
> 
> The other facts sir? look at
> 
> www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net



So you keep saying.  If that's all you have to say - well, you've seen the opinions of others about your site... thankfully, we are welcome to our own opinions, as you are to yours - which means we can disagree with you, privately, publicly, on the web, however we like.

Now let me ask _you_ some questions:  Why do you care?  What has TKD done to you that you are so set in your negative opinion?  And is your problem with the art, some of the people, what?

No matter how much problem you have with a style - and it's obvious that you have quite a chip on your shoulder where TKD is concerned - no matter how much you dislike it for whatever reason you feel that you have - that does not outweigh my experience with the many wonderful people I have met while practicing TKD.  The foundation of TKD could be smoke and mirrors, and that would not change my opinion of the people I have met and been influenced by through TKD, nor could it change my opinion of TKD itself.

Do have a nice day.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Kacey said:


> You are welcome to your opinion, as we are welcome to ours. Apparently, however, you feel that only you are entitled to an opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
ahh.. here is my debate sir.

your denile and badmouthing me degrades this "sport" you hold so highly.

why do you care? I'm sorry but it doesn't matter if you have 40 years in this sport. your the one with the bad attitude. 

lol.. my God are you serious? I have a bad attitude. 

this discussion board is perfect. your all right and I should thank Mr Hubbard and his years in the sport as well.

with his permission I will ask to link this Martial talk TKD board to the www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net website

perfect!

then you can all bicker amongst yourselfs and leave me alone.

your disgusting competitive nature is what drives you all. So you attack me and force me here to do what?

talk about TKD. lol

no thanks everyone already knows how I feel about it. 

The facts are what backs up it being 100% sport sir. 

not the fact that is was created in the 60's it doesn't matter.

lies, deceit and more marketing lies. That is the true TKD way.

www.Taekwondograndmasters.net

and

www.Taekwondochildren.com

are two other great websites

feel free to continue bad mouthing me and bashing me as I will not return to this site.

yes.. a quite death? as you say above.

that would not even be needed I wasn't illegally brought here by badmouthing my business. Is that what you call tae kwon Do discipline? The nerve anyone has to badmouth me?

you BROUGHT me here by slander.


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> in addition WHY? are you attacking me personally?



you made a website dedicated to attacking millions of peoples hobby and are asking why people are attacking you?



> Tae kwon Doist all lie - that is my perspective.



Well not everyone can sleep standing up can they?



> the facts? Tae Kwon Do was NEVER a Martial art. thats the fact.



No, that's your opinion, which is not a very common one.



> The other facts sir? look at
> 
> www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net



I see no facts, just assertions and opinions.  So in the spirit of wikipedia which you mention in there "[citation needed]"

Tae kwon do is a martial art, one of the most practised ones in the world.  Just because you define "martial art" in your own way to exclude everyone that doesn't do what you do does not make it so.

In fact, I would bet that under many peoples understanding of the term your attitude towards other systems and unwillingness to stand by your opinions in public view would go very much against the spirit of martial arts training.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

zDom said:


> First off, you are dead wrong about Exile.
> 
> Secondly, re:
> 
> ...


 
www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> One would have to wonder that if someone doesn't want their page linked to ... why they would have the page up in the first place?


 
good point..

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net


----------



## Kacey (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> ahh.. here is my debate sir.


 
Uh... I'm not a sir, I'm a ma'am!



GenshinKiDojo said:


> your denile and badmouthing my myself degrades this "sport" you hold so highly.
> 
> why do you care? I'm sorry but it doesn't matter if you have 40 years in this sport. your the one with the bad attitude.



As I said, you are welcome to your opinion, as I am welcome to mine.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> lol.. my God are you serious? I have a bad attitude.


 
Well... yes, I'm quite serious.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> this discussion board is perfect. your all right and I should thank Mr Hubbard and his years in the sport as well.


 
Please, do so then, if you feel it appropriate.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> with his permission I will ask to link this Martial talk TKD board to the www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net website
> 
> perfect
> 
> then you can all bicker amongst yourselfs and leave me alone.


 
Linking the site is up to Bob.  As far as "bickering" goes - we're not bickering amongst ourselves; we are responding to your statements.  You are free to make of them what you will.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> your disgusting competitive nature is what drives you all. So you attack me and force me here to do what?
> 
> talk about TKD. lol
> 
> no thanks everyone already knows how I feel about it.


 
This is, thankfully, a free country.  No one is forcing you to do anything.  I fail to see how responding to your comments is a sign of a "disgusting competitive nature"; however, if that is your opinion, it is obvious from your statements that nothing that I or anyone else can say will change your opinion.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> The facts are what backs up it being 100% sport sir.
> 
> not the fact that is was created in the 60's it doesn't matter.
> 
> ...



As long as you're happy with yourself, I see no reason why you feel it necessary to impose your opinion on the rest of us.  You have chosen a particular viewpoint and interpretation that is different from mine - that is your option.  Maintaining my viewpoint despite your obvious disagreement is my option.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> feel free to continue bad mouthing me and bashing me as I will not return to this site.



Really?  You're going to leave and not come back?  I can but hope you are telling the truth this time, I suppose.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Mr. Whitney Sir,
> 
> I will try to ask you a few question if you do not mind, if you have never ever trained in TKD how cah you make the assumption that TKD is only about the sport? Secondly I have meet and had decussion with Exile, he has a lot of info. about TKD combat application and yes I have trained over there in the sixties and seventies so I know first hand what I'm talking about. If you take the time to investigate what TKD was before the sport then you would know, as far as asking Joon Rhee, I have personnally meet him and he can tell you about the combat application as well.
> 
> ...


 
No I'm not a troll. I was forced here by a TKD person that wished to badmouth my Martial Arts business.

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net


----------



## The Master (Aug 9, 2007)

Ah, Welcome to the InterWeb. The place where the brave hide in plain site, and he who has the higher Google Page Rank is the correct one.

In my many years on this wonderful communications medium, I have noticed a very much true fact.  One who can not communicate in a mature and respectful manner online often is just as much an ignoramus in real life, be it through the hand written medium of letter or the verbal medium of that great device of Mr. Bells.  So when one who claims the high ground claims "if you ever wish to be a civil person and talk like an adult email me and we can have peaceful discussions." I look at their own words. In this case, the original writer of those words seems unlikely to be any more capable of mature conversation offline as he is on line.

Oh, and I am not a "TKDer" though I would expect the closed minded individual who would declare me as such to not believe. But that is why I am The Master and he is not.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

crushing said:


> With email does your ego get out of the way? Do you suddenly become courteous, patient and discplined? Do you become more like that which you demand of others, but lack in yourself?
> 
> Given your insults and poor behavior in this thread, I don't blame anyone for not emailing you and giving up their own email address. If you do this in a public forum, what should they expect in return in their inbox or on a telephone?


 
good luck to you if you ever bad mouth someone on the street.

do you know how it feels to be shot in the head?

That is what the TKD ego will teach you, but it's a lesson a little too late if you wait to learn it.

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

The Master said:


> Ah, Welcome to the InterWeb. The place where the brave hide in plain site, and he who has the higher Google Page Rank is the correct one.
> 
> In my many years on this wonderful communications medium, I have noticed a very much true fact. One who can not communicate in a mature and respectful manner online often is just as much an ignoramus in real life, be it through the hand written medium of letter or the verbal medium of that great device of Mr. Bells. So when one who claims the high ground claims "if you ever wish to be a civil person and talk like an adult email me and we can have peaceful discussions." I look at their own words. In this case, the original writer of those words seems unlikely to be any more capable of mature conversation offline as he is on line.
> 
> Oh, and I am not a "TKDer" though I would expect the closed minded individual who would declare me as such to not believe. But that is why I am The Master and he is not.


 
Hello,

well I must disagree with you there sir. I like to talk in a forum where 20 people are not bashing my business to get even with my perspectives if I say something they don't like. That is the case here.

so, I offer to gladly talk to anyone, but TKD people twist the truth once again and say "he must want your email, why email or call if we talk here"

Perfect example. look at how I started off in my first reply. Also look at the person and see the disrespect for my request. I answered questions, I was peaceful and came here because Mr. Hubbard allowed my business to be slandered. (he then removed the material - after seeing it)

so I have angry brainwashed people attacking me and my business.

I offered an alternative way to talk, but again the truth gets twisted.

I walk away from this site and instand backstabbing by TKD people and slanderous remarks about me.

This thread was closed last night and Now it's open again.

I never said I am always right. I state facts.. and I say FACT!!!!!!

I state a perspective and it's PERSPECTIVE.. so how is that being right all the time?


----------



## MJS (Aug 9, 2007)

*Admin Note:*

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

*Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.*

*-Mike Slosek*
*-MT Asst. Admin-*


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> From Wiki: ""Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, internet blogging and the like, then it is considered libel."
> 
> MartialTalk has a posted copyright policy which we enforce (as a number of people will attest to.)
> 
> ...



The above is what I posted.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> Mr. Hubbard,
> 
> I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. after all it is your website here.



Yes it is.



> Can you be the adult of all the TKD people here and if you have anything to say to me contact me instead of being a child like the rest here.



I have been the Adult here, when you have not.
This is a discussion board. That means, it is for discussion. 
I have nothing to say privately to you on this matter.



> you want discussion on this website about the smokescreen. what is driving you?



Ms. Daisy. 



> in addition WHY? are you attacking me personally?



I have not attacked you at all here. I have stated facts of law and legal definitions as well as publicly posted that should you wish to seek damages, that we would comply with properly done court orders. That is all.



> Tae kwon Doist all lie - that is my perspective.



You are entitled to your perspective, as are everyone else here to theirs.



> the facts? Tae Kwon Do was NEVER a Martial art. thats the fact.



That is your OPINION. Back it up with independently verifiable facts with out all the venom you are spewing towards anyone who disagrees with you, and you might find a warmer reception here.



> The other facts sir? look at
> 
> www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net



I'm more interested in seeing scholastic studies by reputable martial arts historians, archaeological evidence as well as first person accounts over the centuries.



			
				GenshinKiDojo said:
			
		

> How about since this thread was closed last night by the Tae kwon Do Owner Mr. Hubbard. that we leave it alone and closed.



No where in my profile do I list any training nor interest in any of the Korean arts. How you come to the conclusion that I am somehow involved in TKD I don't know.  If you want it to die, then drop the battle and move on.


----------



## The Master (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> No I'm not a troll. I was forced here by a TKD person that wished to badmouth my Martial Arts business.
> 
> www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net


Karma. Ying-Yang. Reciprocal Controversy Theorem.

In this thread, you are the one showing bad form, levelling insults and blanket condemning individuals. I have seen a great deal of restraint on the part of the staff here toward you so far.  If this was my site, I don't believe it would have been kid gloves. You were not forced here, nor are you required to continue to blindly flail at those you see as your enemy. You have choice. You will always have those who disagree with your views. Unless they are standing outside your facilities in a sandwich board bullhorn in hand, I fail to see how a disagreeing opinion will deny you your living.

You may have your view, parts of which I may in fact agree with. However, that point is where we must diverge as my preference is a higher level of intellectual debate than that found in this thread.

Good day.

John Racheim


----------



## Sukerkin (Aug 9, 2007)

I can see I shall have to re-read this thread again to find all these obnoxious posts you've referenced many times; I missed them the first time through.

Some advice, if you'll take it - *noone* ever wins an argument on the Net, not even if they are polite, eloquent and erudite to a Newtonian level.

For myself, I've had a few threads here where I've been on the 'naysaying' side of the point when it somes to the history of Korean arts and it was wisely pointed out in those discourses that being convinced that you're right will change nothing, no matter how clearly you make your point.

Sage words in the Confucian mode as the Net is a marvellous place to gather with people you agree with and a terrible one to argue with those you don't (because you can never settle anything).


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> you made a website dedicated to attacking millions of peoples hobby and are asking why people are attacking you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I see, yes it's fine to disagree. I could talk to you for hours on why TKD is a "sport" only. There are facts, but then my perspectives as well.. I mention both and don't lie about either or.

Wikipedia is a dictonary of half lies sir. make up a word - and then put it up there.

Other Martial arts, I don't have anything against sir. There are pros and cons in many styles. MMA is another ballgame..

so I keep my mouth shut at the moment. Martial arts are not the same as Martial sport.  They never were. it is possible to test your skill without fighting in a ring - like two caged rats.

History facts say what? TKD is from 50 BC.. some do.. 100% not true.

* sigh - head beating against the wall *

ok.. so we disagree. The deal here is Jhoon Rhee NEEDS to come clean.. and park in NJ needs to come clean about how he lied in his book in 1989. a false book of mis information.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The above is what I posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hi Bob,

Thank you for being kind in your replies.

My verifiable facts are the Korean Government and Jhoon Rhee can shed some light on this for anyone I'm sure. Maybe Mr. Park or Kim? no doubt.

I agree with you. everyone is entitled to their opinions. I know fact and state it and also experience and opinion and state those as well.

I originally came on this board only to have my information removed - I can really care less what Tae kwon Doist believe as I think they feel the same and could care less what I believe and the truth.

regardless. I would like to appologize to you for being a bit testy and thank you for replying in such a nice manner and respectfully (regardless of our perspectives)


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> I see, yes it's fine to disagree. I could talk to you for hours on why TKD is a "sport" only. There are facts, but then my perspectives as well.. I mention both and don't lie about either or.



And I on why sports arts are far superior to ones lacking a sport component.  Just opinions.



> Wikipedia is a dictonary of half lies sir. make up a word - and then put it up there.



It's an encyclopaedia, not a dictionary.  Yes, you could make up a word and start a article, it would be promptly deleted as your claims about TKD where and for pretty much the same reason.



> Other Martial arts, I don't have anything against sir. There are pros and cons in many styles. MMA is another ballgame..



Well, MMA is what I do, so why not enlighten me?



> so I keep my mouth shut at the moment. Martial arts are not the same as Martial sport.  They never were. it is possible to test your skill without fighting in a ring - like two caged rats.



Of course, there are many ways to test your skill.  However if one wants to test ones skill at fighting, well, you have to fight.  The ring is one place this can be done, but it is not for everyone. 



> History facts say what? TKD is from 50 BC.. some do.. 100% not true.



Isshin ryu is also full of historical mistruths, and that is what you list as your style.  In fact, some of the things you have about it on your own website are not true.



> ok.. so we disagree. The deal here is Jhoon Rhee NEEDS to come clean.. and park in NJ needs to come clean about how he lied in his book in 1989. a false book of mis information.



Yet you where ok putting up that website which is full of half-truths and and attacks on the entire style anonymously?  Of course no one is really anonymous on the internet, especially when you put up a website.

Where does all this hatred come from?


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## crushing (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> good luck to you if you ever bad mouth someone on the street.


 
Why thank you.  Good luck to you too.  You will need it more than I.  Not because of the possible difference martial arts skills, but because of the likelyhood of engaging in such behavior.



GenshinKiDojo said:


> do you know how it feels to be shot in the head?


 
I don't think so.  But maybe being shot in the head would cause someone to forgot how it felt to be shot in the head, or forget that he had been shot in the head in the first place?  Do you suggest I check with my doctor?




GenshinKiDojo said:


> That is what the TKD ego will teach you, but it's a lesson a little too late if you wait to learn it.


----------



## Mr. E (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> I have simply logged on tonight to ask all of you to please have the respect to not list my Dojo and name in this thread or any others without first asking me.



You have posted an article about TKD that is very rude and misinformed. Why should you be able to talk about an art you know little about and do not study and yet feel you should be able to get others to stop talking about you?

It goes both ways.

Just from the start I will let you know that I have not been in a TKD Dojang since disco music was popular. It is not for me. My choice is to just not talk about or read up on TKD.

But I must say that your behavior here has shown the entire world that you lack discipline and maturity. There is not a single person here that thinks that you are higher on the scale of life than pond scum. You can't blame anyone else for that. You brought it on yourself.

I looked at your web site and found it to be rather amusing. I would venture that you are trying to project your own sins onto an entire art. A lad as young as you with only a smattering of training setting himself up as a soke is rather amusing. To cover up your lack of experience it seems you choose to attack other arts as if you were in a position to judge. So it seems that you should try to perfect yourself in both your charecter and your knowledge before you try to push your ill- informed opinions on the rest of the world.

Again, I have no horse in this race. I am merely pointing out that from the view of someone coming into this debate from the outside that you have done yourself no favors in the way you act and behave.


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## terryl965 (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Thank you for being kind in your replies.
> 
> ...


 

Thus I find funny Mr. Rhee can shed what light, I have known him for years. You keep talking about facts but to this day you have provided nothing in the means of facts. You sir have never trained in TKD or in Korea by your own admission, so I'm confused about facts that you have. As far as e-mailing you why this forum is a great place to provide info. if you have it. I assume you do not and that is why you cannot provide.
Martial Artist as to yourself are a dime a dozen come on and say something without anything to back it up but personal opinion. I guess the ROK was a made up piece of the military as well. Sir I wish to truely understand your point of view but you will not provide anything to view so how can we try to uinderstand your point of view.
Respectfully yours
Master Stoker


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> You have posted an article about TKD that is very rude and misinformed. Why should you be able to talk about an art you know little about and do not study and yet feel you should be able to get others to stop talking about you?
> 
> It goes both ways.
> 
> ...


 
www.TaeKwondotimes.net 

it does go both ways - I push nothing on the world. Tae kwon Do has falsified history and lied to the world. Are you proud of that? I suppose that is acceptable.  

Ask Jhoon Rhee since people claim to know him so well on here. 

If you are a Tae Kwon Doist, that does not make you a Martial artist. It makes you a Martial sportist.

yes Karma does find it's way to everyone. That is why I tell people the truth about TaeKwonDo.  

Seems as though a few of the super senior Great Grandmaster moderators on this forum are getting a little testy themselves.

lol - pond scum? OMG thanks.  I guess I deserve that for agreeing that all TaeKwondoist are exactly like Nazi and the Tae kwon Do pioneers are perfect examples of Hitler. 

It's such a sad situation. Men, women and children - exactly like World War 2 with the Nazi.  They thought they were the best in the world and Hitler brainwashed all of these people. Some were innocent. Sickening thinking about it isn't it?

How about a role reversal? Why don't you give me proof of why TKD is a Martial art? lol 

Lets go to Korea and see what the Government documents say shall we?


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## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

> all TaeKwondoist are exactly like Nazi and the Tae kwon Do pioneers are perfect examples of Hitler.



Godwin's Law show's up even in places that you have no reason at all to expect it...


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Thus I find funny Mr. Rhee can shed what light, I have known him for years. You keep talking about facts but to this day you have provided nothing in the means of facts. You sir have never trained in TKD or in Korea by your own admission, so I'm confused about facts that you have. As far as e-mailing you why this forum is a great place to provide info. if you have it. I assume you do not and that is why you cannot provide.
> Martial Artist as to yourself are a dime a dozen come on and say something without anything to back it up but personal opinion. I guess the ROK was a made up piece of the military as well. Sir I wish to truely understand your point of view but you will not provide anything to view so how can we try to uinderstand your point of view.
> Respectfully yours
> Master Stoker


 
beautiful website you have. 

wow I get a school of TaeKwonDo Masters to assult me via internet discussions. How wonderful!

Mr. Rhee can tell us all why he lied thats what?

He can tell the world the truth about TKD and clear up the false facts so his soul will be free and clean.

So TKD is not for me. my choice. I will NEVER allow a lying TKD instructor to mislead someone by telling them they are being taught an ancient art from 50 BC or it's a Martial art.

hmnn.. I have seen this for over 30 years, heard the lies and witnessed the deception.

ask Mr. Park in NJ how he tried to control all Martial arts with the TKD regulations. How is that not like Hitler?  TKD pioneers, control Chinese Kung Fu, Japanese styles and anything considered a martial art.

hmnn, I guess that's ok to do that. Opps I have no proof. Wrong - read:

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net

get the bill numbers and see for yourself.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Godwin's Law show's up even in places that you have no reason at all to expect it...


 
lol sorry perfect comparison so I needed to reference that.

If you really did know anything at all about Tae Kwon Do you would know exactly what I'm talking about.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

I am sorry but you really are wrong.. ok wikipedia says so.. guess your right now.. lol

no - Tae kwon do is the worlds most practiced Martial Sport. was Never a Martial art and misconceptions and false history remarks will never make it a Martial art.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> lol sorry perfect comparison so I needed to reference that.



I'm quite sure the law works BECAUSE one person thinks it is a perfect comparison when it has nothing at all to do with it.  Tae Kwon Do = Nazi's is a textbook example of Godwin's Law, it shows that one side has no real argument and is going for a purely emotional response.



> If you really did know anything at all about Tae Kwon Do you would know exactly what I'm talking about.



I think I'm pretty safe claiming that I have a better understanding of what TKD is then you come across as having.  I could probably even through some corrections on your Isshin ryu stuff that you have on your site at you too.  I kind of have a liking for history and philosophy.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I'm quite sure the law works BECAUSE one person thinks it is a perfect comparison when it has nothing at all to do with it. Tae Kwon Do = Nazi's is a textbook example of Godwin's Law, it shows that one side has no real argument and is going for a purely emotional response.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'm pretty safe claiming that I have a better understanding of what TKD is then you come across as having. I could probably even through some corrections on your Isshin ryu stuff that you have on your site at you too. I kind of have a liking for history and philosophy.


 
nope, I truely doubt that Mr. walking ego. I doubt that very much.

hmm. You have no reason to say my comparasion of Nazi and TKD is false. Where do you get that? 
No - a perfect comparison regarding the image, mission, lies, best in the world egos and evil negitivity. 

Read the website and understand. That is why I compare. Your MMA and TKD ego is making your neck hurt buddy.

I need to change Isshinryu? nah, I have 100% facts on the website. Guess what? It wasn't formed in 50 BC - no lying to the public.

Read my page on MMA if you want my views on it so bad. You obviously know more then anyone else on here.  

I tell you facts, if you don't like it o'well.. believe what you want. 

Now your going to tell me about Isshinryu too.. lets hear it. I love the talking ego's on here

ego's get you killed on the street. sorry how many world champions do you have?


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## The Last Legionary (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:
			
		

> Did you know TKD doesn't allow you to punch to the head



Tell me, does the Encyclopedia Britannica know this?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-71162/One-step-sparring-punch-Chung-steps-back-into-long-stance

Using that wonderful tool known as Google, I find several TKD schools with techniques listed that indicate a strike to the head is a technique.  I find competition rules for many arts including Karate, Savate, MMA, NHB etc that limit, restrict or eliminate self-defence techs.

So if you have one fact wrong, how many others are you wrong on too?


I read this thread, I read the links. I see alot of rabid claims, demands to ask others to present proof. I also see threats of legal action should someone actually contact you offline. Sounds like entrapment to me.  I noticed the large number of additional sites mirroring the content. Looks a bit obsessed to me.

Oh, and the comparison of someone who fabricated some history to someone who set the world to the torch and masterminded the murders of 12 million people, lame dude.  


The simple fact here is, dude made up his own art, and is quite obsessed with discrediting TKD for whatever reason. I'll stick with established stuff that's been passed down a few times, maybe seen a war or 3, thanks. 

Oh, as to TKD, last TKD black belt I sparred, lost badly. Seems they didn't teach him how to defend against a steel folding chair to the head, followed by a body check through a wall. Must mean it sucks right?

Later meat bags!




IV


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## The Last Legionary (Aug 9, 2007)

A person's unbalance is the same as a weight.



IV


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2007)

*Admin Note:*

*Apparently some missed the earlier warning, so I'm posting this final one.*

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Asst. Admin*

*Again, this will be the final warning.*


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## exile (Aug 9, 2007)

Folks&#8212;Today was chaotic, and I've not been able to follow up this thread since it was unlocked. I'm pretty much baffled, as you are, by what Mr. Whitney seems unable to keep himself from firing at us over the æther, but for me at least there's definitely a positive side to all this: I'm really, _really_ impressed by the sanity, balance, maturity, and knowledge reflected in the posts of all the members, apart from those of Mr. Whitney's, who've contributed to this thread&#8212;and an especially heartfelt thanks to those of your who responded to Mr. Whitney's personal attacks on me.  For me, two things have emerged from the discussion so far: (i) the sharp thinking and self-control which I see on no other MA board to the extent that I see it on MT, and (ii) the truth of Robert Heinlein's admonition `Never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.' He was, of course, speaking metaphorically, but the adage fits this case like a glove.

The one bad aspect of this thread is that these uniformly terrific posts have been both responses to, and the targets of, some of the most uninformed and intemperate abuses of the internet I've ever seen. It's important to remember, though, that there are MA sites  (and  non-MA sites, for that matter) where the kind of posts Mr. Whitney has been sending us are not that far, if at all, from the norm&#8212;and that in itself tells us all we need to know about the difference between MT and these other places. 

So let's raise yet another glass to the terrific board that we have here! :cheers:

...(yes, I know what you're thinking, that any excuse for a beer will do for me, but really, it's not true! )


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## The Last Legionary (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> nope, I truely doubt that Mr. walking ego. I doubt that very much.
> 
> hmm. You have no reason to say my comparasion of Nazi and TKD is false. Where do you get that?
> No - a perfect comparison regarding the image, mission, lies, best in the world egos and evil negitivity.
> ...


I see many demands for people to call you or email you.

Tell me there "master", what do you deem a "terroristic" message since you will charge them. From your postings here it would be "anyone who disagrees with me." though I'm not aware of any police departments that could make "alleged TKDer" stick in court or waste the effort to trace such an evil and vile creature back to the slime filled hole you seem to believe they come from.  In fact, the number of times you seem to use the term TKD as an insult or curse is rather comical.  Please, call me that. Call me a TKDer. I don't want to be left out of the fun here pal.

Oh yeah, I don't have no tropheys, do have some scars, and have had a gun pointed at my head at least once.



IV


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## The Last Legionary (Aug 9, 2007)

MJS said:


> *Admin Note:*
> 
> *Apparently some missed the earlier warning, so I'm posting this final one.*
> 
> ...


Sorry Mike, was typin while you was bashing heads.

Standing down.


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## Carol (Aug 9, 2007)

exile said:


> So let's raise yet another glass to the terrific board that we have here! :cheers:
> 
> ...(yes, I know what you're thinking, that any excuse for a beer will do for me, but really, it's not true! )



Oh what the heck's wrong with that excuse mate?  If I wasn't still on the clock I'd join ya.  So instead I raise a glass of Poland Springs from the window office.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

The Last Legionary said:


> Tell me, does the Encyclopedia Britannica know this?
> http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-71162/One-step-sparring-punch-Chung-steps-back-into-long-stance
> 
> Using that wonderful tool known as Google, I find several TKD schools with techniques listed that indicate a strike to the head is a technique. I find competition rules for many arts including Karate, Savate, MMA, NHB etc that limit, restrict or eliminate self-defence techs.
> ...


 
of course there are most likely thousands of TKD schools not training in grappling as well.. that's the BJJ fad since the UFC stuff in 1993 or so. They did not have grappling before, so it's added. That's fine, just don't lie about it. as for head hitting - well some TKD instructors may add whatever they like, it doesn't mean that is how it was formed. Regarding sports sparring.. they can't punch to the face.

Of course.. I must be wrong with everything - lets simply dismiss the facts.

I give, you got me. I'm wrong and your right.


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## Kacey (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> of course there are most likely thousands of TKD schools not training in grappling as well.. that's the BJJ fad since the UFC stuff in 1993 or so. They did not have grappling before, so it's added. That's fine, just don't lie about it. as for head hitting - well some TKD instructors may add whatever they like, it doesn't mean that is how it was formed. Regarding sports sparring.. they can't punch to the face.



Uh... I trained in the ITF, and head shots - with both hands and feet - have always been legal... and encouraged... so does that mean that ITF TKD isn't TKD, or that your facts are wrong?  :idunno:      



GenshinKiDojo said:


> Of course.. I must be wrong with everything - lets simply dismiss the facts.
> 
> I give, you got me. I'm wrong and your right.



It all depends on where you get your facts... from my perspective, your last line is correct; from your perspective, no doubt, you were intending to be facetious and/or sarcastic.


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## exile (Aug 9, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Oh what the heck's wrong with that excuse mate?  If I wasn't still on the clock I'd join ya.  So instead I raise a glass of Poland Springs from the window office.



:clinks virtual glass with Carol: OK, I'm _fine_ with that!


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

you wrote:
"Oh, and the comparison of someone who fabricated some history to someone who set the world to the torch and masterminded the murders of 12 million people, lame dude."

No, not lame.  Bold yes, but very appropriate and accurate.  From the brainwashing, to the terroristic threats, to a sick following and super EGOs. 

Did Hitler tell his people the truth? No, a sick individual that wanted to control the world and it didn't matter what lies, brainwashing and methods were needed.

This is my comparison, not an emotional lame - let me get a rise out of someone response. Anyone who has been around in the Martial arts world for more then 20 years or so will understand.


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## Kacey (Aug 9, 2007)

exile said:


> So let's raise yet another glass to the terrific board that we have here! :cheers:
> 
> ...(yes, I know what you're thinking, that any excuse for a beer will do for me, but really, it's not true! )



I would if I could... but I ran out last week and didn't buy any more - so I guess I'll just have to raise my tea instead; it's all I've got!


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 9, 2007)

You're right.
In most sports you cannot strike the face. Also the groin, spine and a few other vital points.

But I'm a stick jock. I hit people with short blunt objects. I suck at UFC stuff as they make me leave my sticks outside the cage. I do pretty ok at padded stick sparring, but on the street your balls, etc are a prime target. I also aint pulling my shot on the street....on the mat I like to walk out unharmed, and feel it's good to let my partner do the same.

I've sparred kenpo people who pull their shots and only target the chest, as that's all they are allowed to train against.  I've been put through hell by other kenpoists who train harder and more 'real'.  I've chased a TKD blackbelt off the mats, and had a TKD green belt knock me on my ***. I've done padded stick tap-tap point fighting, which ended with a bruised throat from a brutal takedown and punio choke.  It's not the art, it's how you train.  "Real Deal" schools are going to be few and far between. The average Karate-Mon doesn't want little Tommy getting hurt, thinks belts are important, and gushes about trophies the size of the national debt.  The schools cater to the consumer otherwise they go under.  That whole mall rent or main street is pricey.  Not everyone is comfortable going down the dirt road, past the burned out rusted Chevy, up the dark unlighted stairs to the dimmly lit warehouse dojo. (yes, thats a real description of a real school, and they kick some serious *** there)

You're right.  Sport is not Art.  Neither are Combat.
Sport fighting != Self Defense != Combat != Art != Science
There is overlap, but no, they aren't the same.
What you train, depends entirely on how you train what you train.

Take Royce Gracie, limit his targets, limit his strikes, limit his techniques, and make him pull his shots, and you have, point fighting for rugrats. But it's still Royce.  

Take PeeWee Herman, give him a stick, a few extra Red Bulls, and tell him "go to town" and you got a skinny, gangly killer.

Kung Fu, Karate, Ninjas, BBJ, TKD, etc. All went through their fad, cool stage.  The TKD schools just market better.

Got a better art?  Market it better.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Uh... I trained in the ITF, and head shots - with both hands and feet - have always been legal... and encouraged... so does that mean that ITF TKD isn't TKD, or that your facts are wrong? :idunno:
> 
> 
> 
> It all depends on where you get your facts... from my perspective, your last line is correct; from your perspective, no doubt, you were intending to be facetious and/or sarcastic.


 
yes, I was being Sarcastic.

Hmnn.. so you obviously trained in a TKD type that had head shots in your school. good.

hey this is a TKD board - do you really think one out of 28 million people are going to agree with me or put there inflated ego down? No chance. 

Can you ask yourself something?

What in the world do I have to gain from lying? Nothing at all.

I don't gain anything. I am disgusted with the lies, that's why I am here. I've seen it for over 30 years.  

In NJ and all over the world. TKD is only part of the issue here. If someone from a Martial arts lies and says My BJJ is from 500 BC - I would be just as upset because it's lying to the public for what? money.. Lie = money making.. that is sick! Right?


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## exile (Aug 9, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I would if I could... but I ran out last week and didn't buy any more - so I guess I'll just have to raise my tea instead; it's all I've got!



Ach, I'm sorry to hear thattea at the beginning of the day, beer at the end is my rule of thumb... but once you've restocked, and Carol is off duty, how about we all meet at the Urusai (along with any of the other great posters on this board) for said toast?!


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> I need to change Isshinryu? nah, I have 100% facts on the website. Guess what? It wasn't formed in 50 BC - no lying to the public.



Ok,



> Isshinryu Karate was founded by Master  Tatsuo Shimabuku  in 1954.



Wrong, Isshin ryu did not become Isshin ryu until 1956.  In 1954 Shimabuku was still teaching under the name "Chan Migwha Te".  He opened his school prior to that, so that's not 1954 either.

Guess TKD is not the only one to confuse dates...



> Sunsu was named in honor of Tatsuo Shimabuku's grandfather.



Sort of, but it doesn' mean "strong man" it means "Son of old man" and was given to Shimabuku as a nuckname by the mayor of Chen when he was working there as a tax collector.

You also seem to have a problem with using the meaning of the Japanese equivalent for the Okinawan name of many of the kata.  Naihanchi, Ku san Ku all suffer on this.

Seisan is 13, not 13 hands or 13 anything elses, just 13.

"Cheifa" is wrong, most likely a mistranslation of the word Tuifa, or tonfa taken off the video of him doing it.  The kata is Hama Higa no Tuifa, and Hama Higa is a region, not a person.

Most of your descriptions tend to mix myth with what can be historically shown, a flaw you want to point out in TKD history a little too much. Some are rather common (ex. Ku San Ku is fighting in the dark), but still myth and not the actual history or purpose of the kata in any way that can be historically (or practically) shown.

I do find it rather odd that you leave out two of the bo kata, especially Tokumine no Kon as that would probably be the one that best represents Isshin ryu kobudo given the source of it.  The other two came from Taira Shinken and are very different from what is practised amongst Taira Shinken's Kobudo Lineage.

Your ku san ku sai description I also find rather odd in that it omits the other half of its history, as it came from combining a sai kata from Kyan with Ku San Ku.

I could continue, but I think that makes my point.  For a person so concerned with facts and insistent that you are presenting nothing but "facts" you really should research yours a little better.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> You're right.
> In most sports you cannot strike the face. Also the groin, spine and a few other vital points.
> 
> But I'm a stick jock. I hit people with short blunt objects. I suck at UFC stuff as they make me leave my sticks outside the cage. I do pretty ok at padded stick sparring, but on the street your balls, etc are a prime target. I also aint pulling my shot on the street....on the mat I like to walk out unharmed, and feel it's good to let my partner do the same.
> ...


 
Bob,

I agree with everything you have said above.  So you have an idea on where I'm coming from, my problem is the false marketing.  TKD has claimed to be everything from Yoga to Tai Chi.  

Honest to God - in the late 70's / early 80's TKD gingerly called themsleves Korean Karate and every karate Dojo was freakin out because they still said Karate, then it went to only saying self defense and it goes on..

I never claim to be the ultimate warrior and teach a perfect combat art. My issues are telling the truth when marketing.  Regarding the art or sport taught and also what to consider a Martial art or sport.

I respect Tai Chi alot, however have not studied it. Same with some other arts. I have lived the mismarketing lies and have problems with dishonest marketing.

Regardless, I know the topic of the billion dollar smokescreen website is HOT and people wish to debate etc.

I look at it as - I've seen false marketing for 30 years (honest) and not 1 time did I ever call and tell the TKD person how dishonest it was.

however hundreds of phone calls all my life at the Dojo by TKD people.

This is with no reason other then the TKD instructors did not like my marketing of saying "no black belt clubs"


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Aug 9, 2007)

Friend of mine said it this way (mind you I'm paraphrasing not quoting him)

"Average person has no idea what the difference is between karate, kung fu, tkd, etc. Your goal is to get them to call you, and come in for a face to face.  Then, you can educate them, tell them the difference and why you stuff is the best.  Until then, you fish with the term they know."

I train Modern Arnis.  I've seen it marketed as Filipino Karate, Filipino Kung Fu, Filipino Ju Jitsu and a dozen other names.  Bottom line is, once the person calls, or stops in, it's explained what it's not and what it is.  Key was, to get them to call.  You can't sell/educate if they don't call you.

No one's gonna look in the phone book for something they don't know about 

Not all schools are that honest though.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Ok,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
well.. Andrew Green - I hate to be the one to tell you this, but everything you say above is incorrect. How many years do you have in Isshinryu karate?

I have 32 years sir.  I also disagree with Isshinryu schools that do sports competitions - I feel it's counter productive. 

That's how I feel. (my perspective)

your mis information about Ku san ku kata is 100% wrong. Shimabuku developed it 100% on his own from the empty hand Ku san ku kata.

Do a little more internet research and you'll find 40 seperate variations of any Isshinryu kata out there and meanings.

So it's easy to try and discredit anyone. 

wow you really are hellbent on degrading me in anyway you can.. lol it's amusing really. I see again how your TKD twisting is working here.

Where did you get this bogus information?

The Tonfa kata is the same. read my website that's the facts.

I felt it might be best not to mention 500 variations on the Isshinryu kata facts - I hope that meets your approval. That might have confused the public.

If you wish to dispute any Isshinryu facts why don't you debate it with a higher Dan then I because it wouldn't be as fun would it? Having someone else tell you your incorrect goes against your reasons for trying to discredit me to begin with.

regarding your rediculas claims on a 2 year period about Isshinryu being formed? 

Compare this:

TKD says 50 BC on hundreds of websites..

but it was 1955 TKD then changed in 1960 Tae Soo Do, then official in 1965 TKD again

but from 45 to 55 the kwans mostly called it TKD some did and some didn't..

so when was it Andrew?

let's not get silly here about a couple years.

we can say TKD was 100% not from 50 BC and Isshinryu was 1954 - 56 if you like?


----------



## Kacey (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> yes, I was being Sarcastic.
> 
> Hmnn.. so you obviously trained in a TKD type that had head shots in your school. good.
> 
> ...



I could answer your questions - but I won't, because I see no reason why I should justify myself to your, or anyone else who allows emotion to overcome reason; I find it hard to believe that the vitriol you spout comes from a desire to keep people from what you see as the lie of TKD.  Certainly, there are McDojangs in TKD - just like there are in most, if not all, styles of MA.  Does this mean that no one should practice TKD?  Or any other art that has McDojangs?  No - it means that people should shop around for a reputable school that fits their needs and interest, with caveat emptor as their guide.

I will, however,  refer you to the second quote in my signature.  In addition, I will refer you to my post in this thread, with the suggestion that you read the thread carefully and in its entirety, and consider the comments made therein.  What you choose to do with this perspective is entirely up to you.


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> Ku san ku kata is 100% wrong. Shimabuku developed it 100% on his own from the empty hand Ku san ku kata.



I take it you never learnt a less common kata associated with Isshin ryu, commonly called Kyan no sai.  Where do you think the second half of Ku san ku comes from.



> Do a little more internet research and you'll find 40 seperate variations of any Isshinryu kata out there and meanings.



Right, and most are wrong.  However folks that have actually gone to Okinawa to do research from primary sources seem to agree on most things.

Of course stating there are 40 different versions does not boast well for your "facts".  They are not unique to you, but fairly common misconceptions within the style.


wow you really are hellbent on degrading me in anyway you can.. lol it's amusing really. I see again how your TKD twisting is working here.



> Where did you get this bogus information?



From actually doing research into the subject and looking at all sorts of sources and paying attention to where the information came from.



> I felt it might be best not to mention 500 variations on the Isshinryu kata facts - I hope that meets your approval. That might have confused the public.



But then to claim it all as "facts" when much is simply myth or flat out wrong, that is misleading.



> If you wish to dispute any Isshinryu facts why don't you debate it with a higher Dan then I because it wouldn't be as fun would it? Having someone else tell you your incorrect goes against your reasons for trying to discredit me to begin with.



Been there done that.

BTW - Your Megami page is pretty much completely incorrect, and the "creed of karate" you have listed there is not of Okinawan origin at all.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Aug 9, 2007)

OK, and now I'm done. Bob, would you do all forms of rational thought a favor, and lock this thread. Permanetly. I really doubt this guy is going to get the message (the message being, try being nice, or go away).

Also, to Mr. Whitney. You keep claiming to be 100% right. That's fine. You are omnipotent, and know everything (and are thus, God incarnate). You also keep claiming that you were "brought here illegelly" and that people are slandering you. Fine. Again, you are omnipotent, so who am _I_ (a lowely mortal) to question you. But, and here's a novel idea, why don't you DO something about it? If you really think you have such a great claim to slander, or what ever, why not SUE somebody, like the OP, Bob, or Exile?
Just a thought.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Friend of mine said it this way (mind you I'm paraphrasing not quoting him)
> 
> "Average person has no idea what the difference is between karate, kung fu, tkd, etc. Your goal is to get them to call you, and come in for a face to face. Then, you can educate them, tell them the difference and why you stuff is the best. Until then, you fish with the term they know."
> 
> ...


 
Bob,
Yes!! I understand that 100% and agree! My problem is I won't Market anything false.  Example would be for me to say I teach Tai Chi and Yoga, then someone calls and I tell them it's all the same thing and fool them into coming for classes.  I rather be honest say "no I'm sorry I don't teach Tai Chi or Yoga" and maybe refer someone.  Kenpo for example. I don't teach it here, if someone is interested, I know of a couple great schools in NNJ that do teach and have referred people to them.

Everyone is dif.

My perspective on Martial arts / sports today is that everyone is so rushed to say they are a black belt or want to say they are the bigest and badest.

That really isn't what the "arts" are suppose to be about. I think people get so pumped up ego wise with sports that they either forgot or never had a chance to know what Martial arts really are.


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> My perspective on Martial arts / sports today is that everyone is so rushed to say they are a black belt or want to say they are the bigest and badest.



That is definitely true, lots of people promoting themselves to ranks they shouldn't have and claiming titles that don't fit.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I take it you never learnt a less common kata associated with Isshin ryu, commonly called Kyan no sai. Where do you think the second half of Ku san ku comes from.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I refuse to continue talking with you as your obviously just out to try and discredit me.

you forgot to answer for everyone - HOW MANY YEARS do you have in Isshinryu karate?

I'm sorry but very bad topic to try and bash me on.. lol I don't know it all.. That's the beauty of the Martial arts - it's life long.

But I do know alot about Isshinryu - If you want more I told you to seek a higher ranking Dan.

My inormation on Genshin Ki Dojo website is 100% accurate - so please stop telling people it is not.

I'm sorry you think it's wrong but it isn't sir and I am not always right.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> That is definitely true, lots of people promoting themselves to ranks they shouldn't have and claiming titles that don't fit.


 

yes.. very true

Master Christian Whitney
10th Dan Genshinryu


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> I refuse to continue talking with you as your obviously just out to try and discredit me.



Yep, I am.  You have presented yourself as a expert with facts on Tae Kwon Do.  I am demonstrating that you're facts are not as factual as you would have us believe.



> you forgot to answer for everyone - HOW MANY YEARS do you have in Isshinryu karate?



Hard to really say, when I "stopped" is a blurry line, I'd say 12 - 15.  Of course that doesn't really effect the matter and trying to make it so is a logical fallacy (appeal to authority)

However I did do some pretty intensive research on the history of Okinawan Karate, History was my minor I got a thing for it.



> But I do know alot about Isshinryu - If you want more I told you to seek a higher ranking Dan.



As I said, been there, done that.  However the folks with the highest rank are not the best sources of information.  THe folks that have actually gone to the trouble of researching primary sources in Okinawa are much more reliable.



> My inormation on Genshin Ki Dojo website is 100% accurate - so please stop telling people it is not.
> 
> I'm sorry you think it's wrong but it isn't sir and I am not always right.



And you don't see the contradiction of those two statements?

But here is a question, even supposing that all of the information on your site was correct, you must acknowledge that there is all sorts of contradictory "facts" presented by other sources.  Does this mean that isshin ryu practitioners are also liars in the same way as TKD people?  

After all it is quite possible to research TKD history without going the 2000 years old route, in fact most TKD people know that it is not that old and know that it is based on Shotokan.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I could answer your questions - but I won't, because I see no reason why I should justify myself to your, or anyone else who allows emotion to overcome reason; I find it hard to believe that the vitriol you spout comes from a desire to keep people from what you see as the lie of TKD. Certainly, there are McDojangs in TKD - just like there are in most, if not all, styles of MA. Does this mean that no one should practice TKD? Or any other art that has McDojangs? No - it means that people should shop around for a reputable school that fits their needs and interest, with caveat emptor as their guide.
> 
> I will, however, refer you to the second quote in my signature. In addition, I will refer you to my post in this thread, with the suggestion that you read the thread carefully and in its entirety, and consider the comments made therein. What you choose to do with this perspective is entirely up to you.


 
I'm sorry you really are brainwashed.. No whoever love TKD continue. Why is it that you can't understand something soo simple. I said simply that if someone LIES on purpose to deceive the public for money like TKD claiming things and falsifying history on purpose - isn't that deceptive? yes and it's a lie - yes..

soo people should be told the truth about TKD or any sport or art first and decide for themselves.

I don't know is that too hard for you to follow? I think that would make a good person don't you?

Someone who owns a business to actually tell the truth about what they offer to the public? hmnn.. nahh maybe we should all lie?

what is it that you want to hear? I don't like false marketing. do you like it?


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Yep, I am. You have presented yourself as a expert with facts on Tae Kwon Do. I am demonstrating that you're facts are not as factual as you would have us believe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Wow.. again your attacks on my facts vs perspectives. It's annoying that I have to explain again to you. Isshinryu facts are on my website. Read them, learn them and understand how and what I wrote!

Did you even bother to see how I worded most of the Kata information?

Of course you did.. It's stated mostly as.. ?? Kata meaning this, that and sometimes translated as whatever? - that is how I translated and helped people who wish for information on the Isshinryu Kata. Not as you state because your trying to discredit me.

Your said 12 - 15? What does that mean Andrew? when you were 12 to 15 years old or does it mean you had 12 years in Isshinryu Karate?

What Dan rank did you hold. If you only had 3 years you would not have been a Dan rank. If you had 12 years you may have been up to 3rd dan.

I'm confused as someone with such an EGO would not have let that slip by and would look at any opportunity to toot the horn.. 

Were you 100% sport - why the bashing and personal website attacks?

so your telling me a 8th dan in Isshinryu Karate - or any higher then me is a bad source of information and you know more then they do about Isshinryu karate. Why would that be?

ok then Jhoon Rhee in TKD knows alot less about TKD then I do - does that make any sense?

righhhht.. ooook - I see 

well continue your research young man and good luck to you.

** almost forgot your question - you wrote:

"But here is a question, even supposing that all of the information on your site was correct, you must acknowledge that there is all sorts of contradictory "facts" presented by other sources. Does this mean that isshin ryu practitioners are also liars in the same way as TKD people?


There will always be contradictory facts anywhere right? really..

Well of course - I'm sure there are liers in any sport or style that exist. It's a shame.

I would feel exactly the same about Isshinryu if they began lying right now and told everyone they are Yoga, pilates and kickboxing! Or if they stated the style is from 50 BC..


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 10, 2007)

12-15 years, and I no longer claim any rank at all, it's expired as far as I am concerned.

And yes, a history researcher is far more reliable then someone based purely on there rank, a good number of the original wave of Isshin ryu practictioners that brought the style back had only trained 18 months, and where 6th dan.  They where there as military, a rather time consuming job, I doubt they spent a great deal of time researching karate history.  

Historical knowledge is not in any way related to Rank.  Some of them might know a lot from doing the research, some are working off misconceptions that have been around for a long time.  A lot of them go back to a single article that has been largely debunked.

As far as saying "can be translated as" that is not true, I can't translate "Bonjour" as "Nice shoes" just because I want too.  It has a meaning in the language it is from, and to call it a translation it should have the same meaning as it does in its original language.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 10, 2007)

you wrote:

And you don't see the contradiction of those two statements?


sorry I was simply trying to state a fact to you that I, like anyone on this planet.. are not always right. 

I didn't say that you were right about anything here.

whew - you do enjoy bashing me don't you?

Are you always right Andrew?

if not then maybe we can agree on one thing.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 10, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> 12-15 years, and I no longer claim any rank at all, it's expired as far as I am concerned.
> 
> And yes, a history researcher is far more reliable then someone based purely on there rank, a good number of the original wave of Isshin ryu practictioners that brought the style back had only trained 18 months, and where 6th dan. They where there as military, a rather time consuming job, I doubt they spent a great deal of time researching karate history.
> 
> ...


 
Ok but the main question I had for you was the rank. did you make Dan rank?

ok - good point - from my knowledge of Isshinryu, I know that sounds factual.  

In regards to TKD history, do you know the ranks the founding pioneers were given when told to come to the USA to propegate TKD?

The same thing - meaning same situation.  

So if you have someone trained in TKD or any sport or art.. they made the rank of 1st degree blackbelt, but the founders gave them all 6th degree blackbelts to help spread the sport / art - is that proper?

Knowledge is like a college diploma right? so if we all were blackbelts but know nothing what good is it? 

Good to hold our pants up and to inflate our ego.


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 10, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> whew - you do enjoy bashing me don't you?



I am not, and do not.

I am merely pointing out that there are errors in information you have presented as factual.  

I find it odd that you take offence to this as you have a website dedicated to the same sort of thing, although I think I am safe saying that your site makes many subjective claims and is not merely fact checking as I have done.



> Are you always right Andrew?



No, but I do tend to check my facts fairly carefully before presenting them as such.

btw - why the title of "master", use of that title in the way you are using it tends to be more of a korean / tkd tradition.  Okinawan tradition is fairly strict on not ever referring to oneself using any sort of honorific title.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 10, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Yep, I am. You have presented yourself as a expert with facts on Tae Kwon Do. I am demonstrating that you're facts are not as factual as you would have us believe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I disagree that most people know it's not from 50 BC.. I have come across dozens of people who tell me how their neice or nephews are 2nd degree black belt at age 7 in TKD.. I only say "that's nice"

I don't burst anyones bubble because it's too late..

I think most people believe it.  

ok if your 26 years old (I'm not attacking your age) you spend 15 yrs in Isshinryu karate - you should know more about the false marketing of TKD then.


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 10, 2007)

GenshinKiDojo said:


> ok if your 26 years old (I'm not attacking your age) you spend 15 yrs in Isshinryu karate - you should know more about the false marketing of TKD then.




I know plenty about the misconceptions that exist in Tae Kwon Do's history, as I said, I like history.  I also know a fair bit about the misconceptions in Karate's history. And not just martial arts, what most people believe as there countries history is full of myths and lies as well.  Why you feel the need to single out TKD for a crime that your style is guilty of as well is beyond me.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 10, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I am not, and do not.
> 
> I am merely pointing out that there are errors in information you have presented as factual.
> 
> ...


oh Andrew you and your personal attacks. 

*sigh*

I thought we were actually starting to be able to talk more openly without your negitivity.

No your incorrect! 

First - one more time - I list FACTS on the Isshinryu Kata webpage - if information doesn't meet your approval - so sorry, but it's fact and they are translations Andrew.  

Second - When did Master become a korean word? 

Is Master the Korean word kind of like Tai Chi know is Korean? 

Master designated 5th dan to 8th usually in a ryu. however I think TKD is 3rd - why don't you tell me?

Funny when I see a TKD instructor be called Sensei - That should never happen as it's strictly Japanese.


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 10, 2007)

Tradition, you will find very few karate instructors, especially Japanese / Okinawan ones that refer to themselves in that way.  Japanese / Okinawan culture would consider it extremely poor form.

The word "Master" is, as you say, not Japanese or Korean.  It is English, a western addition, one that is most common in Tae Kwon Do in my experience and I believe has a Korean equivalent, where as there is no Japanese equivalent in use. 

Yet you seem to reject western additions and commercialization.

And just for interest, Tatsuo Shimabuku, teaching "sport fighting":




History and tradition seem important too you as way of preserving the martial arts, yet you seem selective as too which ones you consider important.

Sport fighting is a part of Isshin ryu's history, right from the beginning, yet you reject it.  why?


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 10, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I know plenty about the misconceptions that exist in Tae Kwon Do's history, as I said, I like history. I also know a fair bit about the misconceptions in Karate's history. And not just martial arts, what most people believe as there countries history is full of myths and lies as well. Why you feel the need to single out TKD for a crime that your style is guilty of as well is beyond me.


 

** last post for today

ok - if we can talk peacefully, I look forward to talking with you in the future at some point. I rather not be instigated or attacked in anyway.

we can disagree - we are allowed to have perspectives. Facts are facts and our perspectives on if these are actual facts looks like what the problem is.

Regarding Isshinryu History. Andrew with all due respect, I would tend to believe a 8th or 9th Dan in Isshinryu over you.

I think you might tend to believe Jhoon Rhee over my comments on TKD right?

So we are even.

Till next time my friend!


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 10, 2007)

1954 or 1956 as the creation date?

I submit exhibit A, a photo taken on the date that it became Isshin ryu, pay attention to the date:




As I said, I check my facts before presenting them as such.  I am not attacking you, just your facts.  Which seem to be the core of your argument against TKD.


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## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 10, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Tradition, you will find very few karate instructors, especially Japanese / Okinawan ones that refer to themselves in that way. Japanese / Okinawan culture would consider it extremely poor form.
> 
> The word "Master" is, as you say, not Japanese or Korean. It is English, a western addition, one that is most common in Tae Kwon Do in my experience and I believe has a Korean equivalent, where as there is no Japanese equivalent in use.
> 
> ...


 
For the love of sweet Jesus Andrew let it rest!

I am 100% anti sport.. see my website on MY perspective on a 50/50 balance.

compete? if someone likes to spar sure we can grapple, spar whatever. I do that with students.

I told you - 80% Isshinryu schools in the world compete.

they compete as Martial sportist. 

A 1st dan black belt Martial artist and a 1st Dan black belt sportist are not the same.

ego Andrew.. it's called huge EGO and it kills people.

disagree with someone on the street and mouth off..

do you think they won't hesitate to knife you or shoot you?

You can say "I would never do that" look at the attacks on me here and I'm answering you all night trying to be friendly.

You attack one after the other.


----------



## GenshinKiDojo (Aug 10, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> 1954 or 1956 as the creation date?
> 
> I submit exhibit A, a photo taken on the date that it became Isshin ryu, pay attention to the date:
> 
> ...


 

Andrew - come on - I really don't know if you missed this post I sent before or are doing it on purpose. below I cut and pasted my post to you a couple hours ago when you asked me the SAME question..

******* below my earlier reply to your Isshinryu info **
well.. Andrew Green - I hate to be the one to tell you this, but everything you say above is incorrect. How many years do you have in Isshinryu karate?

I have 32 years sir. I also disagree with Isshinryu schools that do sports competitions - I feel it's counter productive. 

That's how I feel. (my perspective)

your mis information about Ku san ku kata is 100% wrong. Shimabuku developed it 100% on his own from the empty hand Ku san ku kata.

Do a little more internet research and you'll find 40 seperate variations of any Isshinryu kata out there and meanings.

So it's easy to try and discredit anyone. 

wow you really are hellbent on degrading me in anyway you can.. lol it's amusing really. I see again how your TKD twisting is working here.

Where did you get this bogus information?

The Tonfa kata is the same. read my website that's the facts.

I felt it might be best not to mention 500 variations on the Isshinryu kata facts - I hope that meets your approval. That might have confused the public.

If you wish to dispute any Isshinryu facts why don't you debate it with a higher Dan then I because it wouldn't be as fun would it? Having someone else tell you your incorrect goes against your reasons for trying to discredit me to begin with.

regarding your rediculas claims on a 2 year period about Isshinryu being formed? 

Compare this:

TKD says 50 BC on hundreds of websites..

but it was 1955 TKD then changed in 1960 Tae Soo Do, then official in 1965 TKD again

but from 45 to 55 the kwans mostly called it TKD some did and some didn't..

so when was it Andrew?

let's not get silly here about a couple years.

we can say TKD was 100% not from 50 BC and Isshinryu was 1954 - 56 if you like?

**********


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## exile (Aug 10, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> GenshinKiDojo said:
> 
> 
> > Bob,
> ...



:lol: Nice one, Andy!

I want to revisit Mr. Whitney's text, reported in the OP for this thread, and just briefly assess&#8212;using publically available documentation&#8212;just how badly Mr. W., who keeps going on about `facts', has gotten the factual story wrong beyond all recognition. Let's just focus on the statement

_The public needs to be aware that Tae Kwon Do IS NOT a Martial art and NEVER was. _

and start with 

*... and NEVER was*

&#8226; General Choi, who trained to a second dan in Shotokan under Gichin Funakoshi's direction, organized the Korean military after the Liberation and made the martial art he learned&#8212;which he and other Kwan founders eventually named Taekwondo&#8212;the standard H2H combative system for all RoK infantry starting around the beginning of the Korean War in 1950. No other national military has ever adopted a single TMA&#8212;the Korean variant of karate&#8212;as a combat standard, so far as I am aware.

&#8226; The Black Tiger commandos in the Korean War, and the White Tiger commandos in Vietnam, who were trained in this version of TKD, were feared by their enemies to such an extent that the VC field command in Vietnam in 1966 directed their troops to avoid contact with the Koreans specifically because of their TKD combat ability. At the Battle of Tra Binh Binh Dong a year, the RoK 11th Marine division imposed heavy casualties on a much larger force of North Vietnamese and broke their attack, leading to promotion of every single member of the division by a full rank. See my post here for documentation, including news stories from _TIME_ magazine and the newsletter of the U.S. Marine Corps; details and reprints are given Stuart Anslow's recent book on bunkai for the ITF hyungs.

&#8226; To the extent that a battlefield combative system is successful, it has to be contrued as an effective SD system under the most extreme conditions. Since TKD (in a form still currently widely practiced by both MAists following both ITF and KKW technical content; see below), proved itself on the battlefield as a CQ fighting system to a greater extent than any other contemporary TMA, it satisfied any possible demand that a fighting system be combat-effective to qualify for the description `Martial Art'.​
So much for the historical accuracy of the claim that TKD `never was' a Martial Art. Let's now go on to 

*TKD is not a martial art...*

&#8226; The technical content of TKD, derived almost entirely from the Shotokan and Shudokan styles of karate, is maintained in its formal patterns, its hyungs, which encode exactly the same combat applications recoverable from the karate kata which gave rise to TKD. In my dojang, for example, we learn the Kichos (essentially identical to the Shotokan/Okinawan Taikyoku katas), the Palgwes (heavily indebted to the Pinan/Heian katas), and in addition to a number of black belt hyungs derived from Japanese sources, several Okinawan katas including Rohai, Bassai and Naihanchi.

&#8226; In an increasing number of dojangs, these forms are analyzed for combat application using methods pioneered by Rick Clark (_Seventy-five Down Blocks_), Bill Burgar (_Five Years, One Kata_) and especially Iain Abernethy (_Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata_), extracting combat-effective fighting techs form both the KKW and ITF hyungs and training them under`live', severely non-compliant conditions.

&#8226; As I pointed out in an earlier post to Mr. Whitney, which he apparently failed to absorb, I myself have trained for several years in a Song Moo Kwan (a literal translation into Korean of _Shoto kan_ `Waving pine tree martial training house') which employs hand, forearm and elbow strikes to the throat, carotid sinus, temple and eyes, trains neck breaks and spinal attacks using elbows, and breaking attacks to collarbones.

&#8226; A detailed series of newsletters written by Simon O'Neil, the appropriately named _Combat TKD_ series, available by subscription at http://www.combat-tkd.com/Ctkd1/home.php, demonstrates combat applications of TKD using multiple head strikes, damaging attacks to the throat, nose and eyes, and neck breaks, employing pins, locks and other controlling moves to set up these terminal strikes.

&#8226; A very similar set of applications and attacks, using a similar strategic approach, clearly derived from O/J karate, is found in Stuart Anslow's 2006 book on street combat-effective bunkai for ITF hyungs. 

&#8226; Anslow's Rayner's Lane dojang is affiliated with the British Combat Association, probably the largest national organization devoted to the realistic application under street-attack conditions of the full spectrum of MAs, including Asian TMAs, headed by the eight-dan karateka and experienced streetfighter Peter Consterdine. The TKD component of the BCA, and of Iain Abernethy's BCA-affiliated bunkai-jutsu network of MA schools and practitioners, is one of the fastest-grown components of that network.​
None of the TKD schools, dojangs or practitioners mentioned here focus primarily, or at all, on tournament competition; they are all heavily invested in live training of TKD techs for unsought, but unavoidable street violence. To the extent that a traditional fighting system contains a rich set of combat applications, and makes those applications available to practitioners willing to train them for street conditions, to that extent it must count as a martial art, _as opposed to sport._

That, I think, fairly tidily disposes of Mr. Whitney's credibility insofar as he associates himself (100%, as I recall) with the statement in the OP on the website registered in his name. 

Finally, I note that the Issinryu World Karate Association just held its 2007 world championship tournament, with 614 participants, according to the official tournament website at http://www.isshin-ryu.com/iwka_2007.htm In numerous books on realistic bunkai methods for karate, such as those by Iain Abernethy and Lawrence Kane & Kris Wilder, we are repeatedly reminded that light-impact, spectacular kicks and other favored scoring methods have little or nothing to do with realistic combat methods inherent in karate's technical content, and over and over again see authors contrast `sport karate' with realistic CQ karate applications. It appears, then, that Issinryu and other forms of karate reflect a major split between sport and combat applications little different in kind from that within the Korean variant of karate called TKD.

I bring these points up just to offer some further ammunition to my friends and colleagues on MT that they might want to avail themselves of should they ever encounter claims, based in profound ignorance as a rule, that TKD is a sport, not an effective fighting system. Unfortunately, there are all too many people who know _nothing_ about TKD running about, telling other people who also know nothing about TKD the kind of nonsense that the OP in this thread cited from Mr. Whitney's website. In some cases, my experience has been, people will when confronted with well-documented evidence of the kind I've alluded to, readjust their ideas to a more realistic picture of TKD. There are others who may be incapable of doing so and in that case... well, you tried. Remember what Schiller told us as a general maxim: _Against stupidity, the Gods Themselves contend in vain._
What he was getting at, I think, is that sometimes it's just not worth the bother...


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2007)

Admin Note:

Despite 2 warnings to keep things on a civil, respectful level, the personal attacks and rude posts continue.

Thread locked pending review.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin


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