# Always wondered does this kind of strike have a name/term?



## Mighty.Panda (Oct 22, 2014)

Soooo I've never actually seen this 'strike' used in any kind of training or in real sparring etc but it seems to crop up a lot in movies/television. I guess it's a kind of throat strike with the flesh/muscle in-between the thumb and index finger. I just ponder the question every time I see it on tv really.


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## Instructor (Oct 22, 2014)

I think we should call it... the Vader.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2014)

That particular strike can be used quite effectively. In Taekwondo, it's taught in the poomsae Koryo, where it is used against the knee and throat. Applied at an upwards angle under the jaw, it can be used to upset balance and control the head. Used directly into the throat, it can be used as a killing strike. In Koryo, it's called an arc hand strike, but you're going to find that there are lot of different names.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 22, 2014)

Mighty.Panda said:


> Soooo I've never actually seen this 'strike' used in any kind of training or in real sparring etc but it seems to crop up a lot in movies/television. I guess it's a kind of throat strike with the flesh/muscle in-between the thumb and index finger. I just ponder the question every time I see it on tv really.




Counter Strike D - Modern Arnis - GM Remy A Presas.


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## MJS (Oct 22, 2014)

Mighty.Panda said:


> Soooo I've never actually seen this 'strike' used in any kind of training or in real sparring etc but it seems to crop up a lot in movies/television. I guess it's a kind of throat strike with the flesh/muscle in-between the thumb and index finger. I just ponder the question every time I see it on tv really.




Yes, it's a legit strike. No, you most likely will not see it during any sparring sessions, mainly because the target is the throat.  Typically, it's called a web hand strike, although I'm sure there are other names for it as well.


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2014)

That can be a nasty bastard of a strike. We used to call it a "Give me back that cookie strike:"


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## Danny T (Oct 22, 2014)

Certainly can be utilized as a strike to the throat or philtrum, often is a limb control or parry.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 22, 2014)

I have seen it in forms and I know that back in the day it was used in sparring but with extreme control.  Some times it is still used in sparring but only when the no contact rule is applied to the technique.


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## K-man (Oct 22, 2014)

Also present in Goju kata as a strike to the trachea. As others have said, a very nasty strike. There is a variation of this taught in Japanese Goju that is even more nasty, if that is possible.
:asian:


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 22, 2014)

Mighty.Panda said:


> Soooo I've never actually seen this 'strike' used in any kind of training or in real sparring etc but it seems to crop up a lot in movies/television. I guess it's a kind of throat strike with the flesh/muscle in-between the thumb and index finger. I just ponder the question every time I see it on tv really.



It's called an arc hand strike, but usually all the fingers (excluding the thumb) are closed. It's primary target is the throat but it can be used to strike the wrist and in certain blocks such as the U-shaped block and double arc hand blocks. The hand position can also be used in basic forearm/knife hand blocks to facilitate a quick wrist grab. It's probably one of the hardest techniques to practice on a pad, not because it is difficult to do but because most pads have the wrong shape although you could practice it on a pool noodle. You will see it more in step sparring than free sparring.


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## yak sao (Oct 22, 2014)

In CMA, at least the ones I've trained in, we call that portion of the hand the tiger's mouth.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 22, 2014)

Not that I use this weapon, but I would sooner use that to attack the nose than the accepted method of heel palming. If the guy rears his head back even slightly, you get an heel palm full of teeth. Just a thought.


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## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2014)

Looks like a great way to break your fingers.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Looks like a great way to break your fingers.


I don't know about that.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Looks like a great way to break your fingers.



It certainly should not be done with the fingers splayed like that.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2014)

Guys... The picture is so he could draw a circle around the striking surface. Not to show the technique. 
Correct hand position could be described as "holding a coke can". 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

I have done it to people. It is a bit of fun. Never hurt my hand.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Looks like a great way to break your fingers.



That's why when you apply "tiger mouth", your other 4 fingers should touch together as a "clay tile roof" and also keep that "tiger mouth" in a smooth curve as if you are holding your opponent's throat.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 22, 2014)

Here is Koryo Pumse. After he does the two lines to the side, he performs this one twice when going "north." It's a head on view.


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## K-man (Oct 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Looks like a great way to break your fingers.


Not a chance. The hand has the same structure as a properly aligned fist.



drop bear said:


> I have done it to people. It is a bit of fun. Never hurt my hand.


So who performed the tracheotomy?


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## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> Not a chance. The hand has the same structure as a properly aligned fist.



Your fingers can also break while in a fist.

Just saying...


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## K-man (Oct 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Your fingers can also break while in a fist.
> 
> Just saying...


Again you are commenting on something of which you have no knowledge and I am not expanding on this on the internet.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> Not a chance. The hand has the same structure as a properly aligned fist.
> 
> So who performed the tracheotomy?



They don't die from it. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OImp3hoSR3M

OK that one is not really. But it was funny.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 22, 2014)

I have used this strike one time in a physical altercation. It was against an individual that was larger, stronger and heavier than me. He was also an EDP (emotionally disturbed person) which compounded the situation. I struck him on an upward angle, more up into the bottom portion of his upper neck than straight into the throat. The impact pushed him back forcefully into a concrete wall (with his head upturned at an angle), which stunned him and allowed me further options which ended the altercation. 

The picture may or may not be an actual picture of a hand about to perform this strike. It may just be a generic hand picture. In actual use, the fingers are firmly held tight and indeed with a full force strike it would be difficult to actually keep them splayed open. Injuring the fingers would be unlikely as they aren't directly striking anything beyond possibly the lower portion of the pointer finger and the inside of the thumb. And keep in mind that the target area is a soft body target.

It is quite an effective strike and very useful as a reactionary strike to set up a counter strike. Or as a stand alone strike if angled more directly into the trachea.


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## K-man (Oct 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> They don't die from it.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OImp3hoSR3M
> 
> OK that one is not really. But it was funny.


Done properly, not the way it was done in your video, it is one of the more dangerous strikes. 
:asian:


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## clfsean (Oct 22, 2014)

It's sometimes called a Jud-ee chop. Other times, it's a Ninj-ee chop.

Either way, Master Ken calls BS!!


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## jks9199 (Oct 22, 2014)

yak sao said:


> In CMA, at least the ones I've trained in, we call that portion of the hand the tiger's mouth.



"Mouth" is often a common part of the name of this fist formation.  I've known variations as cobra mouth, dragon's mouth, one of the eagle claw hands, and a form of palm strike.  The name (and sometimes the targets) change with the principles that are being used to employ them.  A very common target is the throat -- but it can also be used for limbs, too.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> "Mouth" is often a common part of the name of this fist formation.  I've known variations as cobra mouth, dragon's mouth, one of the eagle claw hands, and a form of palm strike.  The name (and sometimes the targets) change with the principles that are being used to employ them.  A very common target is the throat -- but it can also be used for limbs, too.



Very true. I've seen it referred to as a tiger mouth strike in Korean arts as well. And in Koryo, it's used both against the throat but also (twice) against the knee.


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## Danny T (Oct 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Looks like a great way to break your fingers.



Not when used properly. It is also utilized by some in GJJ and BJJ.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> They don't die from it.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OImp3hoSR3M
> 
> OK that one is not really. But it was funny.



This was one of the comments to that video:

*Kalin Slover*

2 weeks ago

May I invite everyone to celebrate Throat punch Thursday by punching this dude in the face?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10200863967269546&fref=nf &#65279;


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2014)

No more chance of injuring the fingers than any other throat strike/grab, the fingers are kept together and I've yet to see anyone injure themselves. We primarily use it as part of a take down with an accompanying sweep/trip. As a strike it's usually part of a strike/grab while in close. Sometimes it's used from a strike into jaw control, which works rather nicely. Every single time.

But if you haven't tried it as part of a take down/trip, you should play with it and see.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Your fingers can also break while in a fist.
> 
> Just saying...



OK yes there is a risk you will break your fingers.if you are going to suggest it is an inherent risk attached to fighting. But I think when looking at a technique the risk has to be higher than that normal risk you take.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> Again you are commenting on something of which you have no knowledge and I am not expanding on this on the internet.



This is why you get the flame wars you get.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

K-man said:


> Done properly, not the way it was done in your video, it is one of the more dangerous strikes.
> :asian:



So from you experience of killing people with that shot. Or from anybody who has killed a guy with that shot. I understand death punches sound a bit cool but it is not as reliable a kill as you may have been told.

I would be impressed if you could find a death from it.


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## K-man (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> This is why you get the flame wars you get.





drop bear said:


> So from you experience of killing people with that shot. Or from anybody who has killed a guy with that shot. I understand death punches sound a bit cool but it is not as reliable a kill as you may have been told.
> 
> I would be impressed if you could find a death from it.


Accept it or reject it but the way it is taught it is a devastating strike. Personally I don't know one that is more dangerous. If that creates a flame war, go for it but I am not posting stuff on the internet that idiots can misuse. You are the one talking of death punches. You said you have used it. I am saying that you may have used a strike like it.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 23, 2014)

yak sao said:


> In CMA, at least the ones I've trained in, we call that portion of the hand the tiger's mouth.



In the Hapkido I studied, we called it the Tiger Mouth strike.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So from you experience of killing people with that shot. Or from anybody who has killed a guy with that shot. I understand death punches sound a bit cool but it is not as reliable a kill as you may have been told.
> 
> I would be impressed if you could find a death from it.



I would suggest to you that things exist outside of Youtube.  The reason I suggest this to you is that you (and one other) seem to go to YT extensively in an attempt to find proof of what you claim.  And if you find something, reasonable or not, you post it as some sort of absolute.  I find this curious.  People have experience(s) outside of a YT video and you should appreciate the opportunity to learn from them.  

This is an effective strike in real world altercations.  It can be a devastatingly effective strike when the altercation is at a deadly force level.  It can be tailored, by adjusting the angle, to be effective at less than deadly force levels and can be used in conjunction with a controlling technique or a takedown.  As I've mentioned, I've used this strike and work with individuals who have also used it as well, both striking, controlling and as a takedown.  It can be effectively employed from standing, grappling or even on the ground.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I would suggest to you that things exist outside of Youtube.  The reason I suggest this to you is that you (and one other) seem to go to YT extensively in an attempt to find proof of what you claim.  And if you find something, reasonable or not, you post it as some sort of absolute.  I find this curious.  People have experience(s) outside of a YT video and you should appreciate the opportunity to learn from them.
> 
> This is an effective strike in real world altercations.  It can be a devastatingly effective strike when the altercation is at a deadly force level.  It can be tailored, by adjusting the angle, to be effective at less than deadly force levels and can be used in conjunction with a controlling technique or a takedown.  As I've mentioned, I've used this strike and work with individuals who have also used it as well, both striking, controlling and as a takedown.  It can be effectively employed from standing, grappling or even on the ground.



So when you used it who performed the tracheotomy?


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

K-man said:


> Accept it or reject it but the way it is taught it is a devastating strike. Personally I don't know one that is more dangerous. If that creates a flame war, go for it but I am not posting stuff on the internet that idiots can misuse. You are the one talking of death punches. You said you have used it. I am saying that you may have used a strike like it.




Well stomping people on the deck. Defiantly results in deaths. We have evidence for that as well as anecdotal accounts.

Punching people results in deaths.

Chokes result in deaths.

Positional asphyxia results in deaths.

Have you ever used this strike? Or one like it?


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So when you used it who performed the tracheotomy?



What are you talking about?


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> What are you talking about?



Read the thread. Follow the discussion then jump in and take sides.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 23, 2014)

I personally like the strike and yes I have used it in the street . It most defiantly stop the person I had a conflict with and it helped me lift him off the ground after being struck.  YES he lived.  
It is a very effective strike that is taught in many systems and used against different parts of the body


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So from you experience of killing people with that shot. Or from anybody who has killed a guy with that shot. I understand death punches sound a bit cool but it is not as reliable a kill as you may have been told.
> 
> I would be impressed if you could find a death from it.



It's not a strike commonly used by street brawlers, but one clearly known to those with formal training (though less so for those whose training is sport-oriented).

Over the last 30 years, I've seen several (living) laryngeal fractures resulting from assaults. I've seen more that we were trying to resuscitate (these would be the deaths you asked about...) and talked to ambulance staff about even more that (from the description of their assessment findings) probably had laryngeal fractures but were not transported (what we call DRT - Dead Right There).

The structures of the trachea/cricothyroid/hyoid/larynx are among the more fragile parts of the human body. They're fairly well protected by their location (dropping the chin does a fine job of protecting them) but when they are struck with even moderate force, the resulting injury is extremely dangerous.

Of those that survive, virtually all will require some time on a ventilator, and the vast majority will require surgery. Most will find some changes to their voice, and a significant portion will never speak again.

With treatment (that means expert airway management) the mortality rate is 40-45%. Without treatment, as you might imagine, it is much higher.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> I personally like the strike and yes I have used it in the street . It most defiantly stop the person I had a conflict with and it helped me lift him off the ground after being struck.  YES he lived.
> It is a very effective strike that is taught in many systems and used against different parts of the body




I have really only seen it as a throat shot. Where else would you use it?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I have really only seen it as a throat shot. Where else would you use it?



It's used against joints. It can also be used at an upward angle under the jaw to disrupt balance and/or control the head.

Try actually reading the thread. This has all been pointed out at *least* three times now.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not a strike commonly used by street brawlers, but one clearly known to those with formal training (though less so for those whose training is sport-oriented).
> 
> Over the last 30 years, I've seen several (living) laryngeal fractures resulting from assaults. I've seen more that we were trying to resuscitate (these would be the deaths you asked about...) and talked to ambulance staff about even more that (from the description of their assessment findings) probably had laryngeal fractures but were not transported (what we call DRT - Dead Right There).
> 
> ...



So you feel it is an automatic death move? Or a move that may result in death. Because let's just be a bit sensible about this I could make the same case for punching.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's used against joints. It can also be used at an upward angle under the jaw to disrupt balance and/or control the head.
> 
> Try actually reading the thread. This has all been pointed out at *least* three times now.



You wouldn't palm heel the head? Considering you are muckning around with boney jaws and stuff. I did do a re read. I can see the nose shot working.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Read the thread. Follow the discussion then jump in and take sides.



I have read the thread, and I've contributed to it.  I don't think you can make that same claim unfortunately, as others have already pointed out to you.  I detailed my use of the move in the OP and the outcome.  Your 'reply' didn't make sense.  That or you're just screwing around.  As for taking sides...I don't see a side to take.  It is a legitimate strike, it has been used by several here and several more train in it's use.  

As far as what else you can to with the movement, beyond or in conjunction with striking..well, that's already been answered several times.  



> So you feel it is an automatic death move?



Again, have you really read this thread?  Seriously.  I don't understand why you're asking these things :hmm:

Let's recap, and I really want you to understand.  This can be used as a strike (into the throat or upward into the neck or into a joint), it can be used to control (for example the infra orbital is quite a useful pressure point for control and/or pain compliance), it can transition into a balance displacement or take down or even a transporter.  It 'can' be used at a deadly force level, but doesn't necessarily need to be at a deadly force level.

Now, does this answer some of your questions?  Do you have any other questions.  If so, then ask.  But please do so with the actual intent of furthering the discussion.  That's not too much to ask.


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## K-man (Oct 23, 2014)

I find it strange that people can accept that there are potentially lethal techniques used in grappling such as RNC but that in other TMAs that actually date back to lawless days where you may have needed to kill your attacker, don't have such techniques. The same people probably accept that Special Forces soldiers are taught to kill with their bare hands, but in the same breath are saying that the people who teach them don't have those same skills.

In all martial arts there are numerous techniques that can kill or cause major injury. There are areas of the body that are more vulnerable than others. Many martial arts are sanitised. The same techniques are taught to children as are taught to adults. The application of the technique is not taught. We have people rubbishing kata as anachronistic and useless, yet kata are filled with potentially lethal techniques and the information on how those techniques should be applied. In most schools those applications are never shown, mainly because the instructors have no idea of what they are actually teaching, wrt kata.

We recently had a guy here in Australia in strife with the authorities for teaching knife fighting. His arguement was that unless the attacking partner knew how to attack with a knife it was unrealistic training for the guys learning to defend. He had a good point but he shouldn't have shouted it to all and sundry. 

Same thing applies to RBMA. If we were to promote the fact that we are teaching techniques that are potentially lethal there will be people screaming for us to be closed down. Here in Victoria it is illegal even for MMA fights to be conducted in a cage. That makes then too brutal.

Same with this technique of the OP. The way it is shown and the way it is described here it is a nasty strike. Done a slightly different way it is potentially lethal. Don't expect to find it on YT anytime soon.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I have read the thread, and I've contributed to it.  I don't think you can make that same claim unfortunately, as others have already pointed out to you.  I detailed my use of the move in the OP and the outcome.  Your 'reply' didn't make sense.  That or you're just screwing around.  As for taking sides...I don't see a side to take.  It is a legitimate strike, it has been used by several here and several more train in it's use.
> 
> As far as what else you can to with the movement, beyond or in conjunction with striking..well, that's already been answered several times.
> 
> ...




Yeah you are off with the birds again. 

It is not my question. It is k mans question. So go sook at him if you think it is not legitimate. As I contributed earlier. I have popped people with this shot and it has worked fine. Nobody died. And I did not break my hand

You have popped people with this shot. Nobody died. You did not break your hand.

There was another guy who popped somone (sorry i cant remember the poster) and nobody died. And he did not break their hand.

So there are defiantly cases where this shot is used people don't die and hands don't break.

Is everybody in the same page now?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So you feel it is an automatic death move? Or a move that may result in death.



I'm sorry. Was I not clear enough when I told you what the mortality rate is for blunt trauma laryngeal fractures? If you'll be specific about which part you didn't understand, I'll try to clarify.



drop bear said:


> Because let's just be a bit sensible about this I could make the same case for punching.



You certainly could claim that punching someone has a mortality rate similar to that of laryngeal fracture. You'd be wrong. You'd look like a moron. But you could certainly make the claim.

Are you making such a claim?



drop bear said:


> You wouldn't palm heel the head? Considering you are muckning around with boney jaws and stuff.



In case it's not painfully obvious, the jaw is a *much much much* larger and stronger bone than the hyoid. Nor does fracturing it generally result in the trachea closing off.



drop bear said:


> I did do a re read. I can see the nose shot working.



What is "the nose shot"? Are you suggesting that a strike to the nose has anything near the mortality rate of one to the hyoid bone?


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You have popped people with this shot. Nobody died. You did not break your hand.
> 
> There was another guy who popped somone (sorry i cant remember the poster) and nobody died. And he did not break their hand.
> 
> ...



Then why did you ask the following question:



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> So when you used it who performed the tracheotomy?



What was your purpose in this one-liner?


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Then why did you ask the following question:
> 
> 
> 
> What was your purpose in this one-liner?




K man asked it of me. I asked it of you.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm sorry. Was I not clear enough when I told you what the mortality rate is for blunt trauma laryngeal fractures? If you'll be specific about which part you didn't understand, I'll try to clarify.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK are there more cases of that throat shot killing people in violence than punching?

Here is one case of a death from punching. Match that and we will see where we go from there.

http://www.nj.com/somerset/index.ss...h_thrown_during_argument_prosecutor_says.html

And the nose shot is viable. Not lethal. But works for what it is supposed to do. Which for me is generally biting defence.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK are there more cases of that throat shot killing people in violence than punching?



Um... no.... because there are a *lot* more people punched than there are struck with an arc hand to the throat. Shouldn't that be painfully obvious?



drop bear said:


> And the nose shot is viable. Not lethal. But works for what it is supposed to do. Which for me is generally biting defence.



So, basically, it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the actual topic under discussion. You know. An arc hand strike. Remember? Did you have an actual point you wanted to make here, or are you just posting whatever randomly comes to your mind?


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> K man asked it of me. I asked it of you.



Okay, but why?  What was your purpose?  I'd already described my altercation in detail.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Um... no.... because there are a *lot* more people punched than there are struck with an arc hand to the throat. Shouldn't that be painfully obvious?
> 
> 
> 
> So, basically, it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the actual topic under discussion. You know. An arc hand strike. Remember? Did you have an actual point you wanted to make here, or are you just posting whatever randomly comes to your mind?



find one death from an arc hand strike.

OK so we are discussing this strike. I was then moving the discussion on to other targets. Chin and nose were two that were mentioned. So as part of the topic I suggested the palm heel would be better for the chin but the nose shot is a pretty good one. For certain situations.

So it does have something to do with the topic and is not at all random.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, but why?  What was your purpose?  I'd already described my altercation in detail.



Ask k man his question.

I assume he thinks anybody who nails a guy in the throat kills them.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Ask k man his question.
> 
> I assume he thinks anybody who nails a guy in the throat kills them.



At the moment I don't have a question for K-man, I understand everything he's posted in this thread.  You'll notice that I've thanked him for several of his posts.  My question to YOU is why YOU would post a one-liner to me that was clearly unnecessary, unfunny and uncalled for.  I'm going to suggest to you that in the future you think twice about your post before hitting submit.  May save you some hassle.  Just a friendly suggestion.



> So as part of the topic I suggested the palm heel would be better for the chin but the nose shot is a pretty good one. For certain situations.



It is situational and depends upon the goal you're looking to achieve.  The hand, as described by the OP and most everyone here, would be an easier transition from strike to control/balance displacement/throw or transporter than a palm heel to the chin (called a chin jab in WWII combatives).  The chin jab is quite effective, but if done properly is going to move the head at an upward angle away from you which makes it harder to facilitate a control based movement.  It is better as a force-on-force strike to disable/stun the attacker.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> find one death from an arc hand strike.



I have personally seen deaths from laryngeal fractures. There is no way to know exactly what strike was used, since witnesses are unlikely to be both trained and observant enough to report anything other than 'he got hit in the throat'. It doesn't really matter if the strike was a knife hand, ridge hand or arc hand. A straight punch is less likely, but possible. You do understand that it's far easier for a 'bladed' hand to reach the target (the one actually under discussion, not your off-topic ones)than a closed fist, don't you?



drop bear said:


> OK so we are discussing this strike. I was then moving the discussion on to other targets.



Yes, you were attempting to derail the thread by making off-topic posts. That's fairly obvious.



drop bear said:


> Chin and nose were two that were mentioned.



I don't believe that anybody has suggested using an arc hand strike against either of those targets. 



drop bear said:


> So as part of the topic I suggested the palm heel would be better for the chin but the nose shot is a pretty good one. For certain situations.



Yes, we can see that you're trying to derail the thread by posting off-topic randomness.



drop bear said:


> So it does have something to do with the topic and is not at all random.



It has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of arc hand strikes. Try to keep up. And stop trying to derail the thread.


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## Steve (Oct 23, 2014)

K-man said:


> I find it strange that people can accept that there are potentially lethal techniques used in grappling such as RNC but that in other TMAs that actually date back to lawless days where you may have needed to kill your attacker, don't have such techniques. The same people probably accept that Special Forces soldiers are taught to kill with their bare hands, but in the same breath are saying that the people who teach them don't have those same skills.
> 
> In all martial arts there are numerous techniques that can kill or cause major injury. There are areas of the body that are more vulnerable than others. Many martial arts are sanitised. The same techniques are taught to children as are taught to adults. The application of the technique is not taught. We have people rubbishing kata as anachronistic and useless, yet kata are filled with potentially lethal techniques and the information on how those techniques should be applied. In most schools those applications are never shown, mainly because the instructors have no idea of what they are actually teaching, wrt kata.
> 
> ...


I might be wrong, but reading through the thread for the first time, I get the impression that Drop Bear is saying that any technique MIGHT result in death, but that no technique is guaranteed to be deadly.  It's the idea that this is a *death punch *he seems to be reacting to, or that it's more or less deadly than a close fisted punch to a delicate area of the body.

As per usual, it looks like a lot of cross talk occurring on both sides of the aisle here.  

Regarding the mortality rate of a laryngeal fracture, it may be high, but how likely is this strike in context going to result in a laryngeal fracture, considering that it's easily defended by dropping one's chin.  

Others have suggested that this strike is effective to other parts of the body, such as joints or the nose.  Thus the "nose shot".  Drop bear didn't invent that.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2014)

Steve said:


> I might be wrong, but reading through the thread for the first time, I get the impression that Drop Bear is saying that any technique MIGHT result in death, but that no technique is guaranteed to be deadly.



Stepping on a lego MIGHT result in death. Nobody has suggested that the arc hand to the throat is "guaranteed to be deadly". Only that it is far more likely to be fatal than a strike to most other targets. And that is true.



Steve said:


> It's the idea that this is a *death punch *he seems to be reacting to, or that it's more or less deadly than a close fisted punch to a delicate area of the body.



The "death punch" idea that he is reacting to doesn't exist anywhere other than his imagination. It's certainly not something anybody has claimed here.


----------



## Steve (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> At the moment I don't have a question for K-man, I understand everything he's posted in this thread. You'll notice that I've thanked him for several of his posts. My question to YOU is why YOU would post a one-liner to me that was clearly unnecessary, unfunny and uncalled for. I'm going to suggest to you that in the future you think twice about your post before hitting submit. May save you some hassle. Just a friendly suggestion.
> 
> It is situational and depends upon the goal you're looking to achieve. The hand, as described by the OP and most everyone here, would be an easier transition from strike to control/balance displacement/throw or transporter than a palm heel to the chin (called a chin jab in WWII combatives). The chin jab is quite effective, but if done properly is going to move the head at an upward angle away from you which makes it harder to facilitate a control based movement. It is better as a force-on-force strike to disable/stun the attacker.


not a question for me, but I think that the implication from Kman when he asked drop bear who performed the tracheotomy was to be a little smart alecky. I may have read into it, but it came off to me as a little sarcastic and implied that drop bear either hadn't used the technique or used it incorrectly, because otherwise the person would be dead. 

In the same way, you acknowledge agreeing with Kman, and so it makes some sense when you described using the technique without killing the bad guy, to ask you the same question. 

It really seems to me that you could all agree that this technique is not a "death punch" or instant "kill move," although could very seriously damage or even kill an opponent.


----------



## Steve (Oct 23, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Stepping on a lego MIGHT result in death. Nobody has suggested that the arc hand to the throat is "guaranteed to be deadly". Only that it is far more likely to be fatal than a strike to most other targets. And that is true.
> 
> The "death punch" idea that he is reacting to doesn't exist anywhere other than his imagination. It's certainly not something anybody has claimed here.


This isn't true.  I just read the entire thread in sequence, start to finish, and I think the sarcastic question to drop bear from k-man set a poor tone, and created a snow ball effect.  When k-man asked the question, "Who performed the tracheotomy?" it clearly implied that this technique is teh d34dly.  Did to me, at least.  

Look, I see where you're coming from, but this bickering isn't just because one person is making **** up.  Everyone has a hand in it.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

Steve said:


> not a question for me...



I think drop bear can answer for himself.  Whether or not he chooses to do so is another question.  If you think the initial response to him, from another poster was 'smart-alecky' then I'm sure you'll agree that this was what he was doing to me.  And it had no place in this discussion.  



> In the same way, you acknowledge agreeing with Kman, and so it makes some sense when you described using the technique without killing the bad guy, to ask you the same question.



No, it doesn't make sense.  It's childish to drop an ignorant one-liner as a sort of 'get the friend of my enemy' thing.  Since I did in fact describe using this technique, without injuring the individual it is childish to ask who was there to perform a surgical procedure.  That kind of nonsense needs to be taken elsewhere and not put into a serious thread.  At least I think it is a serious thread, and reading though it I would suggest most everyone else does as well.  

Let DB answer for himself, or let him take it to a PM.  Either way don't enable him.  And if you can't see that he's wearing thin on others then I don't know what to tell you.  

With respect.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 23, 2014)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

 Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

 -Brian R. VanCise
 -MT Moderator-*


----------



## Steve (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I think drop bear can answer for himself. Whether or not he chooses to do so is another question. If you think the initial response to him, from another poster was 'smart-alecky' then I'm sure you'll agree that this was what he was doing to me. And it had no place in this discussion.
> 
> No, it doesn't make sense. It's childish to drop an ignorant one-liner as a sort of 'get the friend of my enemy' thing. Since I did in fact describe using this technique, without injuring the individual it is childish to ask who was there to perform a surgical procedure. That kind of nonsense needs to be taken elsewhere and not put into a serious thread. At least I think it is a serious thread, and reading though it I would suggest most everyone else does as well.
> 
> ...


I think, with respect, I'll comment when I feel the compulsion to do so. Taking it to PM is a terrific suggestion you might consider yourself, if there is a question you want limited to only one person. 

Regarding Drop Bear, I've seen nothing in his behavior that leads me to believe he is reluctant to speak for himself. 

All of that said, I fully agree that one liners don't help foster positive communication. Neither does calling people ignorant, rude, stupid or childish (all things you have called other people... all drop bear, IIRC). When the tone of a conversation fails to meet our high standards for courtesy and respect, we all bear some measure of responsibility.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

Steve said:


> All of that said, I fully agree that one liners don't help foster positive communication.



That's all you needed to say.  Anyway, back to the OP.


----------



## K-man (Oct 23, 2014)

Steve said:


> not a question for me, but I think that the implication from Kman when he asked drop bear who performed the tracheotomy was to be a little smart alecky. I may have read into it, but it came off to me as a little sarcastic and implied that drop bear either hadn't used the technique or used it incorrectly, because otherwise the person would be dead.
> 
> 
> In the same way, you acknowledge agreeing with Kman, and so it makes some sense when you described using the technique without killing the bad guy, to ask you the same question.
> ...


OK. I have put below the context of the conversation as you obviously didn't read it.



K-man said:


> Also present in Goju kata as a strike to the trachea. As others have said, a very nasty strike. *There is a variation of this taught in Japanese Goju that is even more nasty*, if that is possible.
> :asian:


My comments pertain to the Goju variation.



drop bear said:


> I have done it to people. It is a bit of fun. Never hurt my hand.


To which I replied ...



K-man said:


> So who performed the tracheotomy?


You guys have no idea of what I am talking about but others commenting here do. It is advanced training and you have never performed the strike I am talking about. If you had, and succeeded in connecting, the recipient would require an emergency tracheotomy. I was not being 'smart Aleky'. It is a technique I would *never* use unless my life was in danger. Performing the strike in the way I am discussing for a bit of fun may have severe consequences. 



K-man said:


> Again you are commenting on something of which you have no knowledge and I am not expanding on this on the internet.





drop bear said:


> They don't die from it.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OImp3hoSR3M
> 
> OK that one is not really. But it was funny.


From the strike I am referring to, they may.



K-man said:


> *Done properly, *not the way it was done in your video, *it is one of the more dangerous strikes*.
> :asian:





Steve said:


> not a question for me, but I think that the implication from Kman when he asked drop bear who performed the tracheotomy was to be a little smart alecky. I may have read into it, but it came off to me as a little sarcastic and implied that drop bear either hadn't used the technique or used it incorrectly, because otherwise the person would be dead.
> 
> In the same way, you acknowledge agreeing with Kman, and so it makes some sense when you described using the technique without killing the bad guy, to ask you the same question.
> 
> It really seems to me that you could all agree that this technique is not a "death punch" or instant "kill move," although could very seriously damage or even kill an opponent.





Steve said:


> Regarding the mortality rate of a laryngeal fracture, it may be high, but how likely is this strike in context going to result in a laryngeal fracture, considering that it's easily defended by dropping one's chin.


That is truly an uninformed comment. It is no more 'easily defended' than any of your advanced BJJ techniques. Good luck if you reckon you can do that against a skilled person.

You guys know 100 fold more about BJJ than I will ever know. It is a pity you can't acknowledge that other people with years of experience might know more about something than you when it comes to TMAs. You might even learn something one day.


----------



## Steve (Oct 23, 2014)

Spin it however you want, Kman.  Your question was sarcastic and not friendly.  In the same way saying I "obviously didn't read" the thread is discourteous and unfriendly.  You are quick to accuse others of misconduct and never accept any personal accountability for helping foster an unfriendly and discourteous atmosphere.  There is no other way to interpret, "Who performed the tracheotomy?" than it being sarcastic and unfriendly.  KSD immediately got that message when Drop Bear said it to him.  How could you possibly think it would be interpreted otherwise going the opposite direction?

As I said before to KSD, until you guys accept some share of the situation, it will persist.  You revel in accusing people who disagree with you of being rude, discourteous, ignorant or any slew of other insulting descriptors, but fail to consider that you are half the problem.  

There is a very high horse being ridden around here by a few of you guys, and the quality of the conversation will improve dramatically if you would just dismount for a while and talk WITH the rest of the gang around here, instead of AT us.  

And KSD, I find it the height of irony that you slung a sarcastic one liner at me in your last response to me.


----------



## ballen0351 (Oct 23, 2014)

Glad to see some folks here haven't changed.  Lol


----------



## K-man (Oct 23, 2014)

Steve said:


> Spin it however you want, Kman.  Your question was sarcastic and not friendly.  In the same way saying I "obviously didn't read" the thread is discourteous and unfriendly.  You are quick to accuse others of misconduct and never accept any personal accountability for helping foster an unfriendly and discourteous atmosphere.  There is no other way to interpret, "Who performed the tracheotomy?" than it being sarcastic and unfriendly.  KSD immediately got that message when Drop Bear said it to him.  How could you possibly think it would be interpreted otherwise going the opposite direction?
> 
> As I said before to KSD, until you guys accept some share of the situation, it will persist.  You revel in accusing people who disagree with you of being rude, discourteous, ignorant or any slew of other insulting descriptors, but fail to consider that you are half the problem.
> 
> ...


Take it how you like. I'm beyond caring what you think. In previous threads you have admitted that you don't read the posts carefully so it's not an insult to suggest you didn't read this one. I have had numerous informative discussions with *drop bear* and come away with some useful information. Even *Hanzou* has offered some good insight between sledging. You haven't offered one positive thought on this topic and it seems you're just interested at taking shots at me. Well go ahead, I don't mind. 

As as to people disagreeing. You won't find me disagreeing with any comment on BJJ techniques as I don't consider myself informed enough to comment. It's nothing short of amazing how other people who have zero knowledge on a subject are suddenly armchair experts.


----------



## Steve (Oct 23, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Glad to see some folks here haven't changed.  Lol



Welcome back.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2014)

K-man said:


> I find it strange that people can accept that there are potentially lethal techniques used in grappling such as RNC but that in other TMAs that actually date back to lawless days where you may have needed to kill your attacker, don't have such techniques. The same people probably accept that Special Forces soldiers are taught to kill with their bare hands, but in the same breath are saying that the people who teach them don't have those same skills.
> 
> In all martial arts there are numerous techniques that can kill or cause major injury. There are areas of the body that are more vulnerable than others. Many martial arts are sanitised. The same techniques are taught to children as are taught to adults. The application of the technique is not taught. We have people rubbishing kata as anachronistic and useless, yet kata are filled with potentially lethal techniques and the information on how those techniques should be applied. In most schools those applications are never shown, mainly because the instructors have no idea of what they are actually teaching, wrt kata.



This goes back to the reason why Jigaro Kano removed the lethal techniques from active Judo practice, and placed them into Kata. His Judoka went on to defeat the classical Jujutsu schools who were full of "dangerous" techniques that they could never use. 

The RNC is given a lot of credit because people can actively practice it while training, and perfect the technique under pressure. Hell, I got an RNC off in class tonight, and caused my partner to pass out because he wanted to attempt a leg lock instead of being smart and tapping out. I'm slapping the RNC on actual resisting opponents over and over again. Needless to say (unless I'm in an extraordinary circumstance) I can get the RNC off in a bad situation against a very bad person.

How often are you striking someone in the throat with this punch? How often are you damaging wind pipes and causing people to choke on their own blood?

Then comes the other problem; If I'm applying the RNC, I have the ability to release it as soon as I feel my opponent go limp. Hes unconscious but he's alive, and unhurt. It's a very gentle way to end a confrontation, so you can use it in a myriad of ways and situations. 

Smashing someone's windpipe isn't gentle in any way, shape, or form. So that marginalizes it even further in your arsenal. So you have a technique that you never really practice in class, and has an extremely limited use in self defense. That's going to cause a lot of martial artists to never use it.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

Steve said:


> And KSD, I find it the height of irony that you slung a sarcastic one liner at me in your last response to me.



Steve, I'm sorry you took it as such but it wasn't meant the way you took it.  I cited a portion of your post where you basically agreed with my assessment.  And I'm glad you did see some comments the same way that I did.  And then I wanted to get back to the OP.  And I think that is the best thing to do.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> At the moment I don't have a question for K-man, I understand everything he's posted in this thread.  You'll notice that I've thanked him for several of his posts.  My question to YOU is why YOU would post a one-liner to me that was clearly unnecessary, unfunny and uncalled for.  I'm going to suggest to you that in the future you think twice about your post before hitting submit.  May save you some hassle.  Just a friendly suggestion.
> 
> 
> 
> It is situational and depends upon the goal you're looking to achieve.  The hand, as described by the OP and most everyone here, would be an easier transition from strike to control/balance displacement/throw or transporter than a palm heel to the chin (called a chin jab in WWII combatives).  The chin jab is quite effective, but if done properly is going to move the head at an upward angle away from you which makes it harder to facilitate a control based movement.  It is better as a force-on-force strike to disable/stun the attacker.




So it looses relevence because it was directed at you and not me. 

I thought it was pretty funny by the way. And you are going to hassle me regardless because I am not a groupie and that enrages you. Just something you will have to either get over or not I suppose. You are not the least irritating person either. I just don't get baited and rage out as easily.

If I was going for a transporter I would stay on the throat. Just choke slam the guy.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VBCSKUvOufA


----------



## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

K-man said:


> OK. I have put below the context of the conversation as you obviously didn't read it.
> 
> 
> My comments pertain to the Goju variation.
> ...




So you have actually done it to people?

Even if you don't believe me. Two other people here have.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Glad to see some folks here haven't changed.  Lol



Hey you with your one linerness, Words hurt. 
Photo of a puppy.

Nailing that throat shot.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> This goes back to the reason why Jigaro Kano removed the lethal techniques from active Judo practice, and placed them into Kata. His Judoka went on to defeat the classical Jujutsu schools who were full of "dangerous" techniques that they could never use.



I'm not really sure I follow your point.  Judo specializes in sport applications to be used in a competition venue.  Any classical jujutsu school competing against a judo school, in a competition venue would have to complete using the sport judo rule set.  Thus the more dangerous techniques are not in play.  So if a judo school, that specializes in competition defeats a Jujutsu school that doesn't specialize in competition, using sport rules...what does it prove?  

Let me put it another way so that I'm clear.  Let's put a sport BJJ student in competition against a sport TKD student.  But the BJJ isn't allowed to do any takedowns or submissions.  They need to remain standing and the BJJ has to do more kicks than anything else.  If the TKD student wins, and they probably would under these restrictions, does it prove TKD is better than BJJ?  Of course not, you took away a large portion of the BJJ student's arsenal.  Same with the Judo vs. Jujutsu example you've given.  If they're competing under a rule set that takes away a large portion of the Jujutsu students arsenal and forces them to compete using a rule set the Judo student specializes in...well, what other result would you expect?  

Turn it around and say that the Judo student needs to abide by their training and rule set, yet the Jujutsu student can abide by their training without regard to a rule set and can thus use many techniques up to and including deadly force...would it be fair?  Of course not.  The Judoka may still win if he/she '_gets there first with the most_' but it would still be an unfair fight.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So it looses relevence because it was directed at you and not me.
> 
> I thought it was pretty funny by the way. And you are going to hassle me regardless because I am not a groupie and that enrages you. Just something you will have to either get over or not I suppose. You are not the least irritating person either. I just don't get baited and rage out as easily.



Um...okay, whatever :uhoh:

How about getting back on topic.


----------



## Buka (Oct 23, 2014)

It's a fricken' strike. This is a position of the hand we're talking about, not a fundamental difference in anything that's even remotely important in any of our lives.  JF tapdancing C, you might all want to take a deep breath and relax.


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## K-man (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So you have actually done it to people?
> 
> Even if you don't believe me. Two other people here have.


I think you'll find that they have used the straight open hand variety as have I. Unless you are striking at full force it is unlikely that you will case damage. The variation I am describing is from the Goju Kai kata, Seisan (5th dan kata). As I said, it is a nasty technique. The reason I train it is because it is in the kata. I don't envisage using it or many other techniques that we train anytime soon because that is not the reason I train.
:asian:


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## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm not really sure I follow your point.  Judo specializes in sport applications to be used in a competition venue.  Any classical jujutsu school competing against a judo school, in a competition venue would have to complete using the sport judo rule set.  Thus the more dangerous techniques are not in play.  So if a judo school, that specializes in competition defeats a Jujutsu school that doesn't specialize in competition, using sport rules...what does it prove?



By all accounts, both were competing under Jujutsu standards, since Judo wasn't a sport back then, and it was simply considered another style of jujutusu.

The point is that when it came down to crunch time, the classical-trained Jujutsu exponents couldn't call on their "deadly techniques" to win the match. Meanwhile, Kano's students were far more accomplished at utilizing safer techniques in order to defeat their classically trained opponents.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Oct 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> By all accounts, both were competing under Jujutsu standards, since Judo wasn't a sport back then, and it was simply considered another style of jujutusu.



Are you quite sure about this?  By what accounts are you considering and do you have any supporting evidence?  I'd like to see the source(s) you're looking at.



> The point is that when it came down to crunch time, the  classical-trained Jujutsu exponents couldn't call on their "deadly  techniques" to win the match.



What you're saying though doesn't make any sense.  You can't use deadly techniques in a match.  Or are you suggesting this was a no-holds barred match where the opponent could be killed?


----------



## K-man (Oct 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> This goes back to the reason why Jigaro Kano removed the lethal techniques from active Judo practice, and placed them into Kata. His Judoka went on to defeat the classical Jujutsu schools who were full of "dangerous" techniques that they could never use.


Kano sanitised Judo so it could be taught at university in Japan. The universities had a requirement that any 'sport' being taught had to have a competitive aspect. Hence Tomiki introducing Aikido to competition against the wishes of Ueshiba. 



Hanzou said:


> The RNC is given a lot of credit because people can actively practice it while training, and perfect the technique under pressure. Hell, I got an RNC off in class tonight, and caused my partner to pass out because he wanted to attempt a leg lock instead of being smart and tapping out. I'm slapping the RNC on actual resisting opponents over and over again. Needless to say (unless I'm in an extraordinary circumstance) I can get the RNC off in a bad situation against a very bad person.



RNC is valuable and in my opinion relatively safe. I still won't apply it to my students beyond when they grey out. However, even if someone does pass out, they regain consciousness quickly without any apparent distress. Other techniques are not quite so forgiving. 



Hanzou said:


> How often are you striking someone in the throat with this punch? How often are you damaging wind pipes and causing people to choke on their own blood?


Hopefully never.  I'm not sure where the "choking in their own blood" came from. But then I don't eye gouge or grab testicles or stomp on ankles or elbow the ribs etc. either.



Hanzou said:


> Then comes the other problem; If I'm applying the RNC, I have the ability to release it as soon as I feel my opponent go limp. Hes unconscious but he's alive, and unhurt. It's a very gentle way to end a confrontation, so you can use it in a myriad of ways and situations.


I haven't an arguement with that.



Hanzou said:


> Smashing someone's windpipe isn't gentle in any way, shape, or form. So that marginalizes it even further in your arsenal. So you have a technique that you never really practice in class, and has an extremely limited use in self defense. That's going to cause a lot of martial artists to never use it.


Most martial artists don't even know it exists. Whether I use it or not is irrelevant. If what you are saying was to be taken on board I may as well give up all my arts and take up BJJ. At 66, how do you think I'll go?  Did you listen to the Gracie boys talking about Boyd's belt?

Self defence has virtually nothing to do with fighting so we are back to where we started, 6 threads, 5756 posts, and 12 months ago.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 23, 2014)

To bring this conversation back onto point (as much as it can be, given that the OP's question regarding the name of the technique has been answered), this is not a "deadly technique" any more than numerous others are. In taekwondo, it is called the agwison (which means arc hand).

Yes, you can strike the throat with deadly results. However, at least in KKW TKD, this move is also applied to other uses; Agwison makki; a defensive technique, applied to the wrist of the opponent's punching hand, Agwison chigi; a strike, which aside from the throat, can be directed to the area just above the knee cap. These are just two examples.

So, yes, Drop Bear_ could _use this technique without the opponent needing a tracheotomy (I don't recall him specifying his target, though I may have missed it). I also suppose that if he was going for the neck area and applied the technique without crushing force (pulling it), the result could certainly result in non lethal damage.

The idea that this technique used in a means that can kill is a somehow different and more advanced/secret technique is illogical. I could punch someone in the throat with a right cross and crush the windpipe, killing him. My punch is still just a right cross by whatever name your particular style bestows upon it.

Honestly, the arguing that has ensued as a result of an innocent question on the part of the OP seems rather disproportionate, and seems to have gotten fairly passionate fairly quickly. I rather expected this to be one of those one or two page threads that would die out after the question was answered three or four times.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Are you quite sure about this?  By what accounts are you considering and do you have any supporting evidence?  I'd like to see the source(s) you're looking at.



Evolution of Judo Contest Rules
The Story of Shiro Saigo



> What you're saying though doesn't make any sense.  You can't use deadly techniques in a match.  Or are you suggesting this was a no-holds barred match where the opponent could be killed?



According to the early practitioners of Judo, the duels and matches against other JJ schools were highly dangerous, and could lead to serious injury or death.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> I think you'll find that they have used the straight open hand variety as have I. Unless you are striking at full force it is unlikely that you will case damage. The variation I am describing is from the Goju Kai kata, Seisan (5th dan kata). As I said, it is a nasty technique. The reason I train it is because it is in the kata. I don't envisage using it or many other techniques that we train anytime soon because that is not the reason I train.
> :asian:



Which I imagine would be with the second knuckles?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 24, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> What is "the nose shot"? Are you suggesting that a strike to the nose has anything near the mortality rate of one to the hyoid bone?



Facepalms can be deadly.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 24, 2014)

So yeah the web hand shot to the nose is the best bite defence I have come across. Gets them off quicker than an eyegouge.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 24, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> A straight punch is less likely, but possible. You do understand that it's far easier for a 'bladed' hand to reach the target (the one actually under discussion, not your off-topic ones)than a closed fist, don't you?



A throat punch is probably more likely to be the result of a punch to the chin that slipped off and hit the throat accidentally.


----------



## K-man (Oct 24, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Which I imagine would be with the second knuckles?


Nothing like that. As I said, the technique of the OP is fairly benign. I wish I had never mentioned the variation.
 :asian:


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> Nothing like that. As I said, the technique of the OP is fairly benign. I wish I had never mentioned the variation.
> :asian:



Can you show the rest of us the variation so we know what you are referring to?


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 24, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> In Taekwondo, it's taught in the poomsae Koryo, where it is used against the knee and throat.



Can you show me a picture of the technique against the knee? I'm not sure how that works.


----------



## K-man (Oct 24, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Can you show the rest of us the variation so we know what you are referring to?


No, sorry. I mentioned it in passing and everyone jumped on it. I have said where you can find it. It doesn't need to be shown on an Internet forum. As I said, I am sorry I mentioned it.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> A throat punch is probably more likely to be the result of a punch to the chin that slipped off and hit the throat accidentally.


Unless, of course, you now what the hell you are doing. LOL


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## Gnarlie (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> No, sorry. I mentioned it in passing and everyone jumped on it. I have said where you can find it. It doesn't need to be shown on an Internet forum. As I said, I am sorry I mentioned it.


I think a number of us know the technique you're referring to, and I think you are right not to want to discuss it online. Not because it is some kind of secret 'instant death punch', but because it has a very high percentage chance of causing a potentially lethal injury (if the intent to do so is there), and a responsible martial artist and instructor makes sure that kind of information is kept to a controlled audience.

I'd encourage people not to turn this into a public guessing game of potentially dangerous techniques, and to look up the form if you feel you need to see it.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> Nothing like that. As I said, the technique of the OP is fairly benign. I wish I had never mentioned the variation.
> :asian:


I know that one, but it was taught to me to show me that it was worthless against a superior fighter; because, that fighter will be to busy beating your a$$ to even notice, and you can't practice it on your friends; so, there is no real point in even knowing it. LOL


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2014)

I will premise this with "I can't do it... yet", but there was some famous Roman General that could run his finger through an apple. So, the idea of secret death blows are stupid, when there are people running around that can do that! :hmm: 
Sean


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 24, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So yeah the web hand shot to the nose is the best bite defence I have come across. Gets them off quicker than an eyegouge.


And probably isn't a lethal attack that would necessitate a tracheotomy.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 24, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Evolution of Judo Contest Rules
> The Story of Shiro Saigo
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, there are some issues to discuss.  First, both of your links are to a Judo website so I'd say that there is some biased at play here.  Secondly, both articles try to make the point that Judo is superior to Jujutsu in a _fight_ because it won in a _match_.  But as I pointed out, though these were no doubt tough matches, they did not allow the full arsenal of Jujutsu to be used.  Indeed, the articles point this out in that they used _throws, chokes, holds or arm locks_ but not other techniques used in Jujutsu.  We have an apples to oranges comparison here.

It is of note that Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill of WWII combatives fame, during the era of WWII combatives development was the highest non-Japanese Judoka in the world (5th Dan).  When asked why he didn't include any Judo in WWII combatives he commented that Judo was useless [in battle] _unless the enemy soldier was wearing a gi_.  William Fairbairn was also a Judoka, having tested before and having his Dan certificates signed by Kano Sensei himself.  He also concluded that Judo was useless in H2H as it relied more on positioning and non-lethal control than what was needed i.e. quick incapacitation and/or deadly force.

This isn't to say that elements of Judo aren't quite useful for a real world altercation.  And this shouldn't be taken to be a slight against Judo or Judoka.  Quite the opposite, it is very effective when used in the venue for which it was designed, and as stated, elements are useful for the 'street'.  But the article you posted goes into detail about all the stuff that CAN'T be used in Judo.  Those arts that wished to compete against Judo in their venue have to abide by their rules which limits the art, in this case Jujutsu and the responses they can employ.  

In my example before of BJJ vs. TKD.  If we make the BJJ practitioner abide by KKW TKD match rules against a KKW TKD practitioner...who would you expect to win the match?  I'd expect the KKW TKD practitioner to win this match based on the restriction put in place.  But to then proclaim TKD is superior to BJJ would be less than honest.  Even if there was an article about it on a TKD website saying it was superior.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 24, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Unless, of course, you now what the hell you are doing. LOL



Hey, I didn't say that any of my punches would slip off.


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## Hanzou (Oct 24, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, there are some issues to discuss.  First, both of your links are to a Judo website so I'd say that there is some biased at play here.  Secondly, both articles try to make the point that Judo is superior to Jujutsu in a _fight_ because it won in a _match_.  But as I pointed out, though these were no doubt tough matches, they did not allow the full arsenal of Jujutsu to be used.  Indeed, the articles point this out in that they used _throws, chokes, holds or arm locks_ but not other techniques used in Jujutsu.  We have an apples to oranges comparison here.



What would be missing from that arsenal? Striking? If the Judoka dominated with throws, chokes, holds, and arm locks, why would striking make a difference? This is of course if striking was disallowed in the first place, and nothing indicates that it was. Furthermore, why would the Tokyo police department purposely stack the deck in favor of Judo when they were attempting to find the best school to teach their officers? 

Isn't that kind of pointless?



> It is of note that Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill of WWII combatives fame, during the era of WWII combatives development was the highest non-Japanese Judoka in the world (5th Dan).  When asked why he didn't include any Judo in WWII combatives he commented that Judo was useless [in battle] _unless the enemy soldier was wearing a gi_.  William Fairbairn was also a Judoka, having tested before and having his Dan certificates signed by Kano Sensei himself.  He also concluded that Judo was useless in H2H as it relied more on positioning and non-lethal control than what was needed i.e. quick incapacitation and/or deadly force.



And this is relevant how exactly?



> This isn't to say that elements of Judo aren't quite useful for a real world altercation.  And this shouldn't be taken to be a slight against Judo or Judoka.  Quite the opposite, it is very effective when used in the venue for which it was designed, and as stated, elements are useful for the 'street'.  But the article you posted goes into detail about all the stuff that CAN'T be used in Judo.  Those arts that wished to compete against Judo in their venue have to abide by their rules which limits the art, in this case Jujutsu and the responses they can employ.



Except it wasn't in Judo's venue, it was a third party venue that set up the tournament. If you wish to argue that Kano somehow set up the tournament so that his new art could gain notoriety, you'd have to provide some evidence.



> In my example before of BJJ vs. TKD.  If we make the BJJ practitioner abide by KKW TKD match rules against a KKW TKD practitioner...who would you expect to win the match?  I'd expect the KKW TKD practitioner to win this match based on the restriction put in place.  But to then proclaim TKD is superior to BJJ would be less than honest.  Even if there was an article about it on a TKD website saying it was superior.



That's a massive false equivalency. There's a pretty big difference between not allowing a Bjj person to grapple, and not allowing a Jujutsuka to not gouge eyes and hit someone in the groin. It's also important to note that after that tournament took place, the various Jujutsu schools fell in line behind Kano, and supported the Kodokan. That wouldn't have happened if some shenanigans had taken place.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> No, sorry. I mentioned it in passing and everyone jumped on it. I have said where you can find it. It doesn't need to be shown on an Internet forum. As I said, I am sorry I mentioned it.



That's alright I figured it out without looking up the form, the tracheotomy remark nailed it for me, I'm a bit slow today.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 24, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> What would be missing from that arsenal? Striking? If the Judoka dominated with throws, chokes, holds, and arm locks, why would striking make a difference?



Striking is one of the things that Jujutsu does that Judo does not.  So you're saying that striking doesn't make a difference?  Your saying that the other techniques used in Jujutsu don't make a difference?  



> Furthermore, why would the Tokyo police department purposely stack the  deck in favor of Judo when they were attempting to find the best school  to teach their officers?



Who said they did?



> And this is relevant how exactly?



It is very relevant.  That's why I posted it.  



> Except it wasn't in Judo's venue, it was a third party venue that set up  the tournament. If you wish to argue that Kano somehow set up the  tournament so that his new art could gain notoriety, you'd have to  provide some evidence.



A third party may have hosted the event, but it was Judo's venue as is evident by the techniques that weren't allowed.  I don't know why you're missing this point?  It was a match where one side could do everything they've trained for against another side that could not.  



> There's a pretty big difference between not allowing a Bjj person to  grapple, and not allowing a Jujutsuka to not gouge eyes and hit someone  in the groin.



No, there really isn't.  The point being that a BJJ person that isn't allowed to compete as he/she was trained to compete will be at a disadvantage against someone that can do everything they've trained for.  So in regard to the articles assertion that Judo is superior to Jujutsu in a fight because it won some matches is lacking in accuracy.  

Lots of things can change depending on what is allowed.  A cross body mount can be quite effective...unless the person on the bottom is able to reach the person on top's groin and then crushes the testicles.  That may be a game changer and is of course not allowed in a match.  Getting an arm bar on someone in a match can be quite effective...unless the person pulls out an edged weapon.  That may be a game changer and is of course not allowed in a match.  Wrapping someone up on the ground can be quite effective...unless the person being wrapped up is able to bite or gouge or crush or otherwise use something that isn't normally allowed by the rules.  Then it can be a game changer.  

As one example, at our regional training center, one of the most popular courses for L.E. is Jujutsu 101 by Fred Crevello.  Fred is a really nice, humble older gentleman.  He is also gumby and rolls with the best of them (than are usually half his age).  He'll get some folks occasionally from particular grappling styles who look at his small stature and they scoff at him.  Until he wraps them up like a pretzel!  But more than that, while their grappling he'll pull out a training weapon and use it.  "Hey...you can't DO that' is the usual response.  "Why not" he'll reply?  "This is a street course and not a competition course".

In a REAL fight it boils down to one thing really, he who gets there first with the most wins.  The less that limits this the better.  

Anyway, it wasn't my intention to hijack this thread into a Judo vs. Jujutsu thread so apologies to the OP. I've said what I felt should be brought up on this side topic.  Accept or reject as you desire.  Back to the OP.


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 24, 2014)

And if you'd like to create a discussion on the Judo/Jujutsu topic in the appropriate section I'd be happy to talk with you about it there.  This way the OP of this thread isn't derailed.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> Nothing like that. As I said, *the technique of the OP is fairly benign*. I wish I had never mentioned the variation.
> :asian:



With all due respect, while I normally find your posts very interesting and insightful (even if I disagree with you), but the position you're taking on this is quite frankly, unreasonable. Especially with comments like this. 

Like most techniques, what makes it benign or no has more to do with the application of the technique (i.e. where and how you apply it) than it does with the technique itself. All that's "mentioned" in the op is that there is a technique that uses this part of the hand as a striking surface, followed by a question about the name of said technique (which probably varies from art to art, but in English, it's an arc hand). 

A poke with a finger is fairly benign. Until you're poking your fingers into someone's eyes. A front kick with the instep is fairly benign. Until you kick full force to an opponent's testicles.

I've learned the technique; it's a part of Koryo pumsae, so all those bajillion TKD blackbelts in the Kukkiwon/WTF have learned it too. 

We practiced it outside of just the learning of the form. I did a demonstration years ago where I broke a glass bottle with the technique, along with breaking one with a palm heel. We learned it as a throat strike, as well as for use against other targets. Nothing benign about it. 

I'm not going to question you about whatever special technique it is that you're referring to; it sounds like the same technique, but who cares? If it's not a technique that you feel should be revealed on the internet, then it was irresponsible for you to even mention it in the first place.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 24, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Can you show me a picture of the technique against the knee? I'm not sure how that works.


I can show you that, and the wrist. These are from the Kukkiwon textbook:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 24, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> And if you'd like to create a discussion on the Judo/Jujutsu topic in the appropriate section I'd be happy to talk with you about it there.  This way the OP of this thread isn't derailed.


Good idea, though in this case, the OP question has been answered, and then some!


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## jks9199 (Oct 24, 2014)

OK, somebody explain this to me.

Thread is about a particular hand formation for a strike.  And somehow we end up with 2 or 3 pages of posts about grappling?  I would swear on Bibles stacked on my dead grandmothers that there's a rule about that somewhere?


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And probably isn't a lethal attack that would necessitate a tracheotomy.



Done it a few times never even broke someone's nose with it from the bite. You don't get a huge wind up with it. But gets them off and that is the main deal.


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## K-man (Oct 24, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm not going to question you about whatever special technique it is that you're referring to; it sounds like the same technique, but who cares? If it's not a technique that you feel should be revealed on the internet, then it was irresponsible for you to even mention it in the first place.


As I said, I made a mistake and I apologised for it.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> As I said, I made a mistake and I apologised for it.


Its the internet your never allowed to make a mistake and it shall never be forgotten  thats like rule #6


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not going to question you about whatever special technique it is that you're referring to; it sounds like the same technique, but who cares? If it's not a technique that you feel should be revealed on the internet, then it was irresponsible for you to even mention it in the first place.
> ...


No worries, though that was really just an aside. The meat of my post was, well, pretty much everything else.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> As I said, I made a mistake and I apologised for it.


Explain it to Saint Peter!:readrules


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## K-man (Oct 24, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Explain it to Saint Peter!:readrules


Well your Lordship, I was chatting on the internet one day and ....
:s92:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> Well your Lordship, I was chatting on the internet one day and ....
> :s92:


...50 random people died, all over the world, the next day.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 24, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Can you show me a picture of the technique against the knee? I'm not sure how that works.



As one of several uses, imagine a front kick coming towards you. Catch the kicking leg behind the ankle/lower calf. Now do an arc hand strike into the knee, impacting just BELOW the patella. You probably won't actually break the knee as such, but you can disrupt all the connective tissues and/or dislocate the patella. It may not be broken (fractured) but it would be broken (non-functional).

It can also be used against the inside of joints (like the elbow or wrist) as part of a controlling move.


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## K-man (Oct 24, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> ...50 random people died, all over the world, the next day.


I'm sorry, but I didn't appreciate the power you had bestowed upon me. 
:s111:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> I'm sorry, but I didn't appreciate the power you had bestowed upon me.
> :s111:


If you wanted that kind of power, you wouldn't be worthy.


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## K-man (Oct 24, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you wanted that kind of power, you wouldn't be worthy.


But that's the problem with half the guys on this forum!
:s81:


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## Marnetmar (Nov 14, 2014)

Isn't this strike/hand positioning used in Ba Gua a lot for the purpose of controlling joints?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 14, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Isn't this strike/hand positioning used in Ba Gua a lot for the purpose of controlling joints?



In CMA, the "tiger mouth" is used more in "control" than in "strike".


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## Zero (Nov 18, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not a strike commonly used by street brawlers, but one clearly known to those with formal training (though less so for those whose training is sport-oriented).
> 
> Over the last 30 years, I've seen several (living) laryngeal fractures resulting from assaults. I've seen more that we were trying to resuscitate (these would be the deaths you asked about...) and talked to ambulance staff about even more that (from the description of their assessment findings) probably had laryngeal fractures but were not transported (what we call DRT - Dead Right There).
> 
> ...









Yes, this is a great strike, highly effective and when/if transitioned into a trachea choke can absolutely result in tap-out and if continued to death.  I have never used it but have experienced it "first hand" (hawdehaw! sorry!) and had it put on me to a relatively powerful but controlled level while sparring with a very large sempai who admittedly did have hands larger than bear paws. I took him down in a sacrifice throw and while working to put a headlock on he shot his strike out and caught me in the front of the neck but kept contact and then proceeded to squeeze until I had to tap.  It happened very quickly.  While a strike fighter by trade I am a decent enough judoka and dabble a little in jujitsu but felt it wise to tap. The reflexive tucking my jaw in (which has worked against neck grips in the past) did nothing to release or ease his grip or pressure. Maybe a good bjj'er like Tony Dimiskus or jujitsu fighter may have got out of it quick enough by breaking off the grip...but the problem is when exerted with force and with intent the grip goes around and behind the trachea at the same time as squeezing.  If he had applied the initial strike without control or continued with a fast full power contraction I am sure I would have been in a world of trouble.  I went around for about a week after that fight like I had a major case of tonsillitis or something.


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