# NBA: Brawl caught on tape-What would you do?



## Karazenpo (Nov 21, 2004)

Many of us have watched that tape over and over and it just backs up what I've always believed about reality fighting. BASICS, BASICS & MORE BASICS. Imho, confirmed by this last caught on tape brawl, it all comes down to speed, power and accuracy. Predominate attack: the typical right hand swings, mixed with a push or two, some grabs. Very simple, nothing complex. If you're going to come out on top then you better hit first, hit hard, hit fast and hit the target.........if you don't hit first then you better either block or preferably move the target-YOU (evade), Basics!  Raw strength and explosive power is the key, not much room for anything fancy or slapping the guy around, there's very little time to get the job done. I have always said this and I'll say it again, that's why the old masters of our Hawaiian-derived systems had such 'wicked' reputations as feared street fighers-Basics!  Picture yourself in that situation of those people being assaulted and what could you pull off to successfully defend yourself? Not "The Perfect Weapon', not "Walker:Texas Ranger" and not "Enter the Dragon" but "reality"......... I say basics! I have yet to see a caught on tape fight video that looked anything like a martial arts movie, have you?  What say you?


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## KempoShaun (Nov 21, 2004)

In a brawl, it all comes back to basics in my opinion.  What was the old Karate Kid/Cobra Kai saying?  "Strike fast, strike hard, no mercy sir!"   :jedi1:


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## Karazenpo (Nov 21, 2004)

Kenpo5th said:
			
		

> In a brawl, it all comes back to basics in my opinion.  What was the old Karate Kid/Cobra Kai saying?  "Strike fast, strike hard, no mercy sir!"   :jedi1:



Agreed Shaun! Too many make fighting so complex, yet it's barbarism can't help but make it very simple!


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 21, 2004)

With the recent pacer-pistons mob melee I am reminded of a player/fan confrontation I saw at a Cubs game at Wrigley Field in 1995 that was a beauty of a M/A Display by Randy Myers (a Brown belt at the time I believe). This Drunk fan sitting by us decides Randy gave up 1 HR to many  hops the fence and charges the Mound, Randy sees him coming at the last few seconds and throws a 3 blow combo driving the fan into the dirt at the base of the mound. Great tape if you get a chance to see it.


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## monkey-a-go-go (Nov 21, 2004)

I would try to hide behind Butterbean! He was known as the king of the four rounders and was a staple on USA network and ESPN's fight cards. He was a delivery truck driver who got his start in toughman contests and brought the fun back into boxing for alot of people- me! Last I heard of him he was one of the boxers brought into k-1 in japan. I thought I would slip this into this thread instead of the more serious one. Fat people can't be healthy but they can be fit as many pro-athletes demonstrate. For a commercial school instructor though they need to keep it trim lol. Oh yeah basics-Tell 'em its your system's esoteric secret teachings handed down through the ages to ensure a miraculous victory. Usually you wait to give these guarded jewels only to disciples who have proven their worthiness through gruelling training and years of devotion. You have a good feeling about them though and you decided to skip to the important stuff.  Not the filler that others teach to keep them around long enough to put your kids through college, pay off ex-wives/husbands, and put a down payment on a bass boat. (I realize there are systems with 50 kata or 700 techs that trying to sincerely perserve the past. But they know whats what.)


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## Oak Bo (Nov 21, 2004)

Exactly, Joe! 

 :asian:


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## The Kai (Nov 22, 2004)

Basics, conditioning and awareness/positioning-cause there is always someone jumping in from the side or back side

Todd


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## jfarnsworth (Nov 22, 2004)

All good posts! I think the only thing you can do is punch/strike/kick your way out of the mob  :idunno: . I could be wrong but if your in the middle of it all what else could you do?


On a side note: 
These professional athletes are way over paid and should be fined accordingly. They are who our youngsters look up to and they should realize they are role models.


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## loki09789 (Nov 22, 2004)

Well, first off, shut up.  THe fans contributed by throwing words and drinks at the enraged players.  The players contributed by being absolute morons in this case right back.

From watching it:

DON'T walk onto the court as I saw a few do on video.

DON'T say anything, just move calmly out of the way and get the heck out of dodge.

DON'T stand there and stare at a GIANT with bulging muscles who has his fist cocked and ready to punch you - move out of the way, run.  Whatever.

KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!  There was so much 'moral righteousness' going on it wasn't even funny.

If you have a guy with the strength, fitness and power of a professional athlete trying to hit you and you can't get away - do what you were trained to do and pray for the best and make your goal to get away NOT to take him on!

That whole thing put most hockey brawls to shame.  At least on skates so much rooted power is taken away and less damage can be done (I know that it still hurts and there are skate blades....).


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 22, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> All good posts! I think the only thing you can do is punch/strike/kick your way out of the mob  :idunno: . I could be wrong but if your in the middle of it all what else could you do?
> 
> 
> On a side note:
> These professional athletes are way over paid and should be fined accordingly. They are who our youngsters look up to and they should realize they are role models.



As I mentioned above the Fans played a roll in this as well, and should be investigated as well for legal actions.

If I am a celebrity, I know people will follow me. I know people will call me names who do not like me. I do not expect to get physically assaulted though.

I think suspentions without pay for those games, fines, and possible legal action is in order.

As to what can you do in a crowd? That depends upon what your goals are. Punching and Kicking are good. You also have body control to place a person into another person to create shields or open up pathways for your movement. You can turn those around you, and or move them, so you can get by.

Just remember you must stay on your feet, so becareful with those kicks, keep them low, and controlled, to move people of stop people. Staying on your feet and being able to move and not get stepped on is important.

Peace Brother JF
 :asian:


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## BallistikMike (Nov 22, 2004)

What you saw was ...

Flailing and lots of it. No focus and no intent of doing damage to put someone down.

Althletes in great condition unable to do any real damage outside of fat lips, and broken noses.

You saw people standing around waiting for the other guy to throw a shot, very small window before the shot was thrown but it was there.

Loss of balance in micro seconds and people grounded.

No kicks what so ever, save maybe a stomp or two.

What I would have done...

Secured an area and made sure of my surroundings. 

If I was caught in the middle or edge of the battle I would have then decided that I was in extreme danger and proceed to cause damage on ANYONE who tried to stop my escape the from the area.

If I had a child present it would have been escape on all counts with him/her regardless of anyone around me. 

Basically it would be escape ... depending on what I had to do to achieve that solution.

now...

This is a perfect example of why your basics must be sound and unwaiverable. It also shows what high stances do and why fights go to the ground. Im not saying low deep training stances but that crap about high boxer type stances needed for the street is the EXACT reason why fights go to the ground more oftne then not.  It is on video, it has been proven. 

A stable stance that allowed you the power to hit effectively, to damage vulnerable targets and retain your footing amongst the stadium seating and on rush of people would have been mandatory. Again your basics. The footwork of a boxer would never have worked...period. 

How about the panic and the mob mentality? What about the security peeling people off each other? So many threats, hmmm.... seems like multi man to me. Its on video people, grappling has its place, mainly in the dojo on the mat or in matches. NOT in a huge melee during a basketball game.

Lots and lots of information in a 2 - 3 minute video. Should watch this and analyse this over and over.

Be safe all.

Mike


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## Karazenpo (Nov 22, 2004)

An excerpt from Mike's post:

 1) Flailing and lots of it. No focus and no intent of doing damage to put someone down.

 2) Althletes in great condition unable to do any real damage outside of fat lips, and broken noses.

Mike, I was a little surprised about #2 above. As a matter of fact, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any blood but then again the guy he had on the ground in the stands was out of camera view. However, the heavy set guy wearing a Pistons shirt on the court caught one right on the jaw and it didn't appear to have much of an effect on him even though he stumbled over backwards. My point is, was there no intent on doing damage as you mentioned in #1 or is it they just don't know how to throw a punch effectively for guys that big. I mean, with tempers that out of control, I think they were trying to 'tune' those fans! It doesn't appear they were holding back on the punches, I think that's just the way they fight when they can't throw a total 'sucker' punch.  Just my thoughts.


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## BallistikMike (Nov 22, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> An excerpt from Mike's post:
> 
> 1) Flailing and lots of it. No focus and no intent of doing damage to put someone down.
> 
> ...


Mr. Shuras,

That is exactley my point. You had well conditioned men who could do nothing but "casual" damage. I agree I didnt see anything of blood and what not I was being generous in my assessment.

This is why the "street fighter" is such a dangerous opponent. He has been in many real world confrontations, he has used that "sucker punch" countless times to great effect, he is also used to getting hit by the shots you saw on that video. 

Strength and conditioning can only get you so far.

Technique can only get you so far.

Street experience can take you farther than both with no formal training.

Put all three together and that is when you have something special. A trained martial artist in the true sense for today's streets.

My position on "intent to do damage" is not anger. You can be angry as all get out and think you want to "kill" the SOB, but unless you have harnessed that rage before and thrown those shots off you will be lacking.

The Martial Arts are suppossed to give you physical training in technique and fitness as well as mental training of exposing you to known attacks and self-improvement. What you see lacking is the training for experience. The real world conditions. Most people dont even come close to the first part let alone real world conditions. Very few schools actually do, they may think they do, but really they are not.

Basketball players are trained to put balls in baskets, fans are not trained at all (with exceptions).

Us as MArtial Artists should be trained just as elite as a pro Basketball Player in our venue. Fighting (Not Fighting). In fact there may have been a few Martial Artists in that fray, but you never saw them because they used their training to escape. They also wouldnt be throwing things to "pour gas on the fire".

That shot you referenced about the guy taking it right on the face and barely moving, also shows just how acurate you need to be with your shots and using the correct weapon. Again your training does this. I for one am very glad this happend from a reality perspective. It should be a wake up call. It wont though.


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## BallistikMike (Nov 22, 2004)

I also have another point to bring up.

Isnt it amazing how strong the human body is under real world conditions, with anger, fear, adrenaline and booze thrown in the mix.

It is very hard to actually damage the human body under combat conditions. Weapons are needed to be really effective. 

Eye gouges, throat crushes, arm breaks all have their spot, but it is very limited. Knockout shots, now that has its place in nearly every encounter. You knockout a man out and fight is over. Here is where the severe damage comes in street encounters also. When a man/woman is knocked out on the ground and beat sensless, they are not reacting, moving, getting hit but not really.

Blocking and evasion isnt about not getting hit period, its about not getting hit effectively. Taking a front two knuckle on the snout and having it break is bad, instinctively drooping your chin and taking that shot on the forehead is better, being aware and blocking that shot is even better, being totaly aware and avoiding that situation is best.

Im rambling now...lol 

Be safe.

Mike


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## James Kovacich (Nov 22, 2004)

Straight blastin' in a crowd and in the bleachers. Slip the predominant right hand and take the body down (although it is the last place to be in a melee, I train to take down while staying on my feet). Theres no winning that kind of situation.

The first thing I did think of when seeing the melee was what the straight blast gym calls the "crazy monkey." I'll find a clip and post it. They call it fighting, I call it a decent way of covering up and recovering while being overwhelmed or just plain attcked by someone who is faster than myself.


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## KenpoDave (Nov 22, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> This is why the "street fighter" is such a dangerous opponent. He has been in many real world confrontations, he has used that "sucker punch" countless times to great effect, he is also used to getting hit by the shots you saw on that video.



What is a streetfighter?  ALL the real fights I have seen have resembled this NBA video.  Which is beginning to lead me to the conclusion that most people who get in fights in real life look just like this.  Probably worse, these were well trained, well conditioned elite professional athletes.  Lots of flailing, no real damage to anyone.  Self defense trainers will tell you that even well trained martial artists look like this when the adrenaline dump ensues.

I think overall it has less to do with what you have trained than how you have trained.  These guys could obviously not access their motor skills under the adrenaline rush of the fight.  BASICS are no good if your brain and body cannot access the skills when they are needed.


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## BallistikMike (Nov 22, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> What is a streetfighter? ALL the real fights I have seen have resembled this NBA video. Which is beginning to lead me to the conclusion that most people who get in fights in real life look just like this. Probably worse, these were well trained, well conditioned elite professional athletes. Lots of flailing, no real damage to anyone. Self defense trainers will tell you that even well trained martial artists look like this when the adrenaline dump ensues.
> 
> I think overall it has less to do with what you have trained than how you have trained. These guys could obviously not access their motor skills under the adrenaline rush of the fight. BASICS are no good if your brain and body cannot access the skills when they are needed.


A "streetfighter", "Bar Brawler", "Ruffian" they all have the same MO. They ambush someone with a sucker punch (haymaker) that knocks them out then proceed to stomp the living >>>> out of them. I just use the term "street fighter" as someone who has quite a bit of fighting experience but no formal training like MA, boxing, wrestling, what have you.

I have been in many fights as well and most are flail fests. I have also seen a local fighter who is a bit of a weekend bar brawler who is tough as nails and has a wicked right hook (Haymaker) clean house with it until I rear choked him to the ground.

I agree it is how you train, not the amount of material you know. It is why a trained boxer is a force to be reckoned with as well as an experienced street fighter.

I was not comparing the flailing to a streetfighter, I was saying this is why a streetfighter excels in a bar brawl for example. BECAUSE most everyone will be flailing, he knows it, counts on it and delivers effective strikes (haymaker) to effective targets (jaw hinge, temple) for knockout shots and then proceeds to pummel the victim. You did not see this on the video. You saw many, many strikes that were thrown hard with anger connect and do nothing. Why? Because the intent wasn't there, the target was wrong for the weapon, booze, adrenaline etc...

It boils down to basics - powerfull strikes that are damaging targets that shut down the body. Otherwise you get flail fests.

This is why I dont by into the endless techniques of some kenpo systems, the many requirements for belt levels, the endless drills and sets. That is a different beast however. Blah


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 23, 2004)

While in the Bar tonight watching the Monday Night football game on teh big screen. I overheard a guy talking about how there were already by close of business Monday 21 suits brought against the Palace for inadequate security. I think this is people trying to get rich or richer off of this.

Personally, I would like to see the instagator(s) charged with insighting a riot and reckless endangerment of the 22,000+ people present at the game. A message needs to be sent to the fans as well that their actions have consequences as well. That people have to take responsibility for those actions.


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## mj-hi-yah (Nov 23, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Personally, I would like to see the instagator(s) charged with insighting a riot and reckless endangerment of the 22,000+ people present at the game. A message needs to be sent to the fans as well that their actions have consequences as well. That people have to take responsibility for those actions.


I agree Rich.  People need to be responsible for their actions.  Didn't the police use video tape to convict people of similar crimes during the riots in LA?


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## MJS (Nov 23, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> While in the Bar tonight watching the Monday Night football game on teh big screen. I overheard a guy talking about how there were already by close of business Monday 21 suits brought against the Palace for inadequate security. I think this is people trying to get rich or richer off of this.



Ahh...the typical phrase by intoxicated and just in general stupid people.  My question is, why can't people take responsibility for their * own * actions?  Instead, they act like total A-holes, and expect the cops/security to go to their defense.  "I got hurt cuz there wasn't enough security!" Ummmm...NO!  You got hurt because you were acting like a fool!!  

If you watch the tape of the fight, you'll see people who were nowhere near the "action" but yet they still felt the need to contribute by throwing things?   :idunno: 



> Personally, I would like to see the instagator(s) charged with insighting a riot and reckless endangerment of the 22,000+ people present at the game. A message needs to be sent to the fans as well that their actions have consequences as well. That people have to take responsibility for those actions.



I agree Rich!!

Mike


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## OC Kid (Nov 23, 2004)

from what I heard yesterday on a radio sports news channel, The athletes hit the wrong guy. They have ID'd the guy who threw the beer cup from a  video and are looking for him.

If I were there I would be in defense mode. mainly blocking trying to protect my family. 
Then call my lawyer. Why???? Because these yahoos are professional athletes. They think they can get away with just about anything andin recent years they have.

They are not above the law. They can not go and punch people out because someone threw a beer cup at them. 
They can defend themselves if assaulted but I dont thik fans throwing a beer cup is consider a physical assault which would demand to physically punch people out. Especially fans who pay the bills.
They have to do what all citizens do, call the police and press charges. 

To me its no different then a bar brawl or a road rage incident.


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## MJS (Nov 23, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> If I were there I would be in defense mode. mainly blocking trying to protect my family.



But you know what the sad thing is?  We shouldn't have to worry about defending our family, because we should be able to go out to a game, for dinner, a concert, etc. without having to worry about some jerk starting something with either me, my family or the person we're there to see!  

In addition, its funny how some people can't go anywhere without getting drunk!  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't go to a show and have a beer, but when you gotta get that drunk...well, theres a serious problem IMO.  Maybe they should ban beer!

Mike


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## Karazenpo (Nov 23, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> What is a streetfighter?  ALL the real fights I have seen have resembled this NBA video.  Which is beginning to lead me to the conclusion that most people who get in fights in real life look just like this.
> 
> 
> I say: Ain't this the truth!


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## Karazenpo (Nov 23, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> A "streetfighter", "Bar Brawler", "Ruffian" they all have the same MO. They ambush someone with a sucker punch (haymaker) that knocks them out then proceed to stomp the living >>>> out of them. I just use the term "street fighter" as someone who has quite a bit of fighting experience but no formal training like MA, boxing, wrestling, what have you.
> 
> I have been in many fights as well and most are flail fests. I have also seen a local fighter who is a bit of a weekend bar brawler who is tough as nails and has a wicked right hook (Haymaker) clean house with it until I rear choked him to the ground.
> 
> ...



I say: This, along with Dave's post is exactly what I was looking for but I wanted someone else to say it. Why? I've been outspoken for many years on this issue on several forums and elsewhere. I see all these kenpo/kempo people putting so much stock into all these techniques, for every possible situation you can get into, then be so technical about how each one HAS to be done a certain way and all the time I'm shaking my head saying: It's never going to happen like that in a real fight, no matter who you are or what style you're training in, unless of course you're fighting some shmuck who's essentially acting like an uke for you and not a real threat anyway."  You could probably do a kata on him and win. Against an aggressive opponent who has heart or just don't give a damn, forget it. Raw basics is what you are going to draw upon and let us not forget fighting attitude or "heart". Too many martial artists get too caught up in 'dojo self defense', demos on ukes who are essentially playing the role of stuntmen. Chuck Norris once said something to the effect that he looks so good because of his stuntmen, they either can make him or break him. Notice, he uses the same stunt crew in his movies and television series, ever notice the familiar faces all the time with the villians? Martial artists who are in positions to utilize their skills in reality see this more readily than those who do not and sometimes these practitioners fall into a false sense of security. Again, if I said it once, I said it 100 times, fighting is so simple so why complicate it? Now, with the advent of 'caught on tape' assaults and brawls, as they say, 'a picture is worth a thousand words'! One cannot argue with reality. Like Dave said: 





			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> What is a streetfighter? ALL the real fights I have seen have resembled this NBA video. Which is beginning to lead me to the conclusion that most people who get in fights in real life look just like this. Respectfully, Professor Joe
> 
> PS: Guarranteed, if we could have seen the late legendary Professor William K.S. Chow in a real fight it wouldn't have been pretty or flashy but basic and deadly!


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## James Kovacich (Nov 23, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I say: This, along with Dave's post is exactly what I was looking for but I wanted someone else to say it. Why? I've been outspoken for many years on this issue on several forums and elsewhere. I see all these kenpo/kempo people putting so much stock into all these techniques, for every possible situation you can get into, then be so technical about how each one HAS to be done a certain way and all the time I'm shaking my head saying: It's never going to happen like that in a real fight, no matter who you are or what style you're training in, unless of course you're fighting some shmuck who's essentially acting like an uke for you and not a real threat anyway."  You could probably do a kata on him and win. Against an aggressive opponent who has heart or just don't give a damn, forget it. Raw basics is what you are going to draw upon and let us not forget fighting attitude or "heart". Too many martial artists get too caught up in 'dojo self defense', demos on ukes who are essentially playing the role of stuntmen. Chuck Norris once said something to the effect that he looks so good because of his stuntmen, they either can make him or break him. Notice, he uses the same stunt crew in his movies and television series, ever notice the familiar faces all the time with the villians? Martial artists who are in positions to utilize their skills in reality see this more readily than those who do not and sometimes these practitioners fall into a false sense of security. Again, if I said it once, I said it 100 times, fighting is so simple so why complicate it? Now, with the advent of 'caught on tape' assaults and brawls, as they say, 'a picture is worth a thousand words'! One cannot argue with reality. Like Dave said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## loki09789 (Nov 23, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> PS: Guarranteed, if we could have seen the late legendary Professor William K.S. Chow in a real fight it wouldn't have been pretty or flashy but basic and deadly!


Some training philosophies hinge on the idea that you will do under pressure the thing that you have trained:

1.  Most recently
2.  Most intensely
3.  Most consistently.

Given a black belt or higher has been consistently been practicing and applying white belt material in all three ways, chances are the thing that you will fall back on is white belt level intricacy - but with a black belt level of form, power, focus and speed in the deliver....

KISS is a good foundation to focus on.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 24, 2004)

Yes, so far, I think we're all on the same page!


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## Cruentus (Nov 24, 2004)

I've been getting a rare take on this incident, considering that I live about 5 min. from the Palace where this occurred, I have acquaintences and friends of friends who were present, some actually right there in the fight breaking it up (Rick Mahorn[sp], an aquaintence and former piston can be seen in a black suit helping to break it up), and I hang out at a local Fridays in walking distance from my residence in Auburn Hills that happeneds to be the same Fridays that a lot of the players hang at (in fact, Wallace was in last week). I was there with Rich Parsons at this same Fridays Monday night.

Anyways, I have observed some interesting things about this incident that I'd like to share:

#1. The "thug mentality" and "disgruntled fan" mentality is always very interesting to observe. The thug mentality was wonderfully demonstrated by Ron Artest who runs into the stands attacking the WRONG GUY; the guy he attacked wasn't even the guy who threw the damn soda. The disgruntled fan mentality was demonstrated by the guy in the blue jersey who actually threw the soda at Artest, and then futilly attempted to fight him, Jackson, and O'neal after they jumped into the stands.

#2. It was also interesting, as it always is when observing any riot, the "mob-mentality" that occurs. People behaving in ways that they'd never normally behave.

So...what does one do if caught in a situation like this...as I believe that was the question here. Well, that depends on what perspective your coming from, so let's cover some possibilities:

#1. DON'T BE A JACKASS. Don't have a thug mentality like Artest, where if you feel like you were wronged or disrespected you come out swinging with no thought as to the consequences to your actions. Don't be the disgruntled fan guy who ruins everyones time around them by being an obnoxious jerk, and who would do something like throw a soda on a player, or on anyone for that matter. And, if your caught in a riot, don't be a part of the mob. Stop, take a deep breath, and THINK about what the hell you are doing.

Now that we covered that, let's cover some options as to who YOU might be in the situation, starting from the most likely...

#2. Someone in the stands who isn't near the incident: Most likely you'll be this person. Sure, your going to want to see what's going on from accross the stands, that's natural. But, stay in your spot unless there is danger where you are sitting. If the situation starts to go from bad to worse, and you sense a riot risk, quietly and courtiously leave the area. Go to your car with whomever your with, and go home. When you are exiting, be courtious to everyone, even if they aren't being that way to you. When people see violence, especially disgruntled fan types and those with the mob-mentality, then they often get "pumped" and want to fight as well. Don't give them a reason to fight you. Be especially careful in fringe area's like hallways and such, be careful in the parking lot where people think that they are away from the law somehow when they are outside, and be careful when you are driving. Don't turn into the aggressive driver in this situation, because chances are you'll piss someone off while your trapped in the parking lot with them.

#3. Same as #2, except this time you're with your wife and one or more child: 
The rules change when children are involved a bit. Everything in #2 applies, but you need to even be more cautious in trying to sense when a riot may break out, and leaving before-hand, for the sake of your family. Now, I don't know if this is entirely "correct" but the following seems to make good sense. First off, let the woman take point, or lead. Now, when I am walking with my wife I usually take point, and she walks behind with her hand on by belt, shirt, or I put my left hand behind me for her to hold (less preferable). However, we don't have kids (remember, the rules change with kids). The main reason you let the woman take point is because you can put the kids in the middle and keep an eye on your family as well as your surroundings. Usually when the guy takes point with kids in a riot situation, he tends to unintentionally walk too fast for the wife and children to keep up, which is no good for a number of reasons. By putting the woman in front, she sets the pace, and you (male) can watch them. Another benefit to having the mother in front is that if she accidently runs into someone or has to be a bit assertive when navigating through a crowd, a "pumped up" male is a lot less likely to try to start a fight with her. Now, in terms of crowd navigation; the best crowd navigators are security and LEO crowd control, and Mothers of more then 2 years. It's true. My wife sucks at crowd navigation, but I'll bet that if we have kids she'll be better at it then me in a couple of years. Why? Years of practice walking through crowded wal-marts, stores, malls, and schools with wandering children, that's why. Just one year of periodically having to run through a bunch of people to grab your wandering 3 year old will do the trick. So unless you navigate crowds for a living, chances are Mom is a better crowd navigator then Dad anyways, or at least compitent enough to take point. Now, if something DOES happened, lets say a fight breaks out in front of her, or someone actually trys to assault her. Her motherly instincts will/should kick in, and she will step back with her arms behind to protect her children. When this occurs, you (the male) immediately take point and address the problem, remembering your goal of getting out of there and not being macho. Also, last thing, if one child needs to be carried, then dad carries. If two need to be carried, then I am sorry, but you shouldn't be at the game. Having both the wife and the husband being self-defense oriented will help tremendously in a circumstance like this.

Now, milage and personally circumstances may vary here, so take this as general advise that you can apply to your situation as needed. I won't address the family circumstance again in this post, figuring that as a rule, your goal is to get our family to safety if caught in any of the below situations.

Also, this was a little gender-centric being that I am a male, but women, please don't take this as me being sexist. Mothers have just as much or often more responsability in keeping their family safe as the male. Taking point, and other things, are very important, and not to be taken lightly. 

#4. Let's say your closer to the incident then #2, but your not close enough to be of any help in breaking up the situation. Then, MOVE away from the fight and steer clear of security.

#5. Let's say your close enough to help the innocent guy who didn't throw the soda that Artest was beating on. Don't be one of those cowards who just stands by and watches someone innocent get pounded on. Step in and attempt to break it up. The calmer and more soothing you are, the better this will go over. Make sure that you are aware, and when the real security arrives, you know when to step out of the way. Remember as a rule here; you don't help out unless those being paid to help out aren't available. Now, if Artest or someone like him does try to swing on you while your trying to break it up, take him out. Period. Don't let some million dollar thug rap artist wanna-be ****wad hurt YOU. Take him out.

#6. Let's say you ARE the innocent guy sitting there that Artest attacked. First of all, don't stand there like a dolt in shock and awe like that guy did. You should see this coming from a mile away. Try to get out of there ahead of time, but if he gets on top of you and attacks, TAKE HIM OUT HARD, and in the worst way. Again, don't let some million dollar rap artist wanna-be ****wad hurt you. If I were that guy, Artest might have to retire completely. Now, when it does get broken up, however, don't try to continue fighting. Be calm, and know when the threat has been diminished.

#7. Let's say your close enough to hold back the guy who threw the soda in the first place. Yes, hold him back until security arrives. If he try's to hurt you, respond accordingly as described above.

#8. Your trapped in a violent mob: If your not being a jackass, then most likely, the violent mob is not focused on YOU. So, DO NOT start swinging or punching your way out of the mob. This may sound like a good plan, but it is not. A mob is very chaotic, but it does follow certian trends. Finding a common enemy is one of them. A mob that is violent is looking for a common enemy to be violent towards. If you start swinging, there is a very good chance that you will become that common enemy. You will find yourself having to fight 10, 15, 50 people, and it is likely that you will lose this battle, and be stomped to the ground. So it is best to be as calm and inconspicuose as you can, and try to parry and swim your way through the crowd. Be like water. If you have to hurt someone, do it suttily(sp?), and remember that you trying to get away, not be macho and fight people.

Side note: I noticed some clips from systema that seemed to have very good crowd fighting tactics, maybe worth taking a look at.

So....

that's some; some of what I'd do. Again, I expect opinions and mileage will vary.

PJMOD :mp5:


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## expressdog01 (Nov 30, 2004)

Screw That Break His Leg


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