# Sincerely asking...



## Reedone816

First of all I'm not currently learning Aikido, but intrigue with this clip.
Want to ask about this video, is Aikido really teach the no touching stuff? or is it only to the branch the teacher founded?
The teacher here is legit, as he taught military police and president guards.


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## Xue Sheng

Reedone816 said:


> [video=youtube;hG5xZeEhqcE]
> First of all I'm not currently learning Aikido, but intrigue with this clip.
> Want to ask about this video, is Aikido really teach the no touching stuff? or is it only to the branch the teacher founded?
> The teacher here is legit, as he taught military police and president guards.



I am not an aikido student either but my youngest is and the answer to the question "is Aikido really teach the no touching stuff?" is no. At least not as if comes from Yoshimitsu Yamada, that is where the School Sensei's lineage goes to.

As far as being legit because he taught military and police, what did he teach and is there evidence to back up that claim. You want to see if his no touch stuff works, let him challenge a fighter that is NOT one of his students. My opinion of all of this no touch stuff is that all the teacher ahs done is to successfully teach his students how to fall down on queue


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## tshadowchaser

sorry to say but  some of what I saw on the video was BS.  the student was way to compliant to what the instructor wanted him to do.  there where some good techniques on it but much of it was the student reacting to what might happen if the technique was actually done.
Yes in Aikido the act of not hurting the uke is of upmost importance but he still needs to be touched in order for the technique to work.  Yes the uke must be compliant and not activly resist when learning but to fall without being touched is not part of Aikido


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## Tony Dismukes

Whole lot of nonsense in that clip. This can happen when students get so psychologically conditioned to taking dives for the teacher that they start throwing themselves without waiting to be touched. The sad thing is that both students and teacher can start to believe that he is tapping into some sort of mystical force when this happens.


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## Reedone816

thank you for the replies.
As for teaching, MP 96-97 and President guards 1997-2000 (in US it is secret service), he taught Aikido techniques to comprehend suspect (I think).
As for why I ask is simple because I've seen the similar techniques are being done successfully to "unsuspected" martial artist, excluding the no touching part (haven't seen that one).


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## Brian R. VanCise

Okay I have written about this crap several times at my blog.  Here is a link 
to these blog posts:

Okay Fo Fo Crap Is Just That, Crap??. | The Instinctive Edge?

Please check out the additional blog post links as there are some really interesting
video links.


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## Xue Sheng

Some here may remember the Kiai Master and his $5000 challenge. Which is a prime example of what happens when you start believing in your own hype

The Curious Case of the Kiai Master

The sad part is that students believe this stuff and in the OP example they are likely going to do the same exact thing the Kiai master's students did...IMO this is very sad.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Yes Xue it is really, really sad in the end!


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## Buka

_"Teaching military police and presidential guards_" might look nice on a resume to a person who reads resumes and doesn't actually deal with violence. But...well, you know. I hope so, anyway.


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## hussaf

Military and police don't know anything about martial arts.  This makes it easy for whoever is in charge of hiring a h2h instructor to be fooled by some fancy MA instructor's résumé.  Beyond that, many times I've seen qualifications such "instructed Navy SEALs," it really means that person participated, or taught, at a seminar it clinic where one or more SEALs were present.


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## Carol

To me it seems like the louder a person brags about training the military, the less likely it is that the person did anything of significance.  The ability to keep one's mouth shut is paramount to the success of any such project.


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## Reedone816

That's the thing, he taugh them for a year and 3 years, and here, in military or special guard mostly they are well versed in one type martial art, good physique and huge ego. so when they were given some ma instructor they always tried to test him like choke him from the back without warning or when ask to punch, they kick instead, asking impossible scenarios and so on.
So for him to "survive" those years means he got their respect.
Also he is well respected from martial art community because of his openness to touch hands with other system, until now as far as i know his dojo's branches have open door policy that welcome others to come visit and "trade knowledge"...
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk


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## Xue Sheng

Reedone816 said:


> That's the thing, he taugh them for a year and 3 years, and here, in military or special guard mostly they are well versed in one type martial art, good physique and huge ego. so when they were given some ma instructor they always tried to test him like choke him from the back without warning or when ask to punch, they kick instead, asking impossible scenarios and so on.
> So for him to "survive" those years means he got their respect.
> Also he is well respected from martial art community because of his openness to touch hands with other system, until now as far as i know his dojo's branches have open door policy that welcome others to come visit and "trade knowledge"...
> Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk




You appear to already believe so why ask?


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## tshadowchaser

Being respected,  knowledgeable, and an expert in any art dose not mean that in time yo change and start promoting something else that may not be as legit.
A prim example of this is/was Dillman. The man was damn good at what he did and what he taught way back in the early 70's but he changed and started promoting his no touch years later.


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## punisher73

I watched bits of the clip and the "no touch" that was shown that I saw looked like BS.

I studied Aikido a short time and there was some "no touch stuff" taught, but it was based on reactions of the attacker trying to avoid getting hit.  For example, throwing the arm as if to clothes line them and the person "throws themself" to avoid getting clotheslined while moving forward.  It had nothing to do with "ki/chi" though.


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## Tony Dismukes

Reedone816 said:


> That's the thing, he taugh them for a year and 3 years, and here, in military or special guard mostly they are well versed in one type martial art, good physique and huge ego. so when they were given some ma instructor they always tried to test him like choke him from the back without warning or when ask to punch, they kick instead, asking impossible scenarios and so on.
> So for him to "survive" those years means he got their respect.



Just out of curiosity, what is your source for this information? Have you talked to the soldiers who trained with him or is the story coming from the instructor himself?


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## Tony Dismukes

punisher73 said:


> I watched bits of the clip and the "no touch" that was shown that I saw looked like BS.
> 
> I studied Aikido a short time and there was some "no touch stuff" taught, but it was based on reactions of the attacker trying to avoid getting hit.  For example, throwing the arm as if to clothes line them and the person "throws themself" to avoid getting clotheslined while moving forward.  It had nothing to do with "ki/chi" though.



Even your clothesline example is an artifact of training rather than something which would happen in real life. An uke who has received the technique enough times will know he is about to get clotheslined and may (consciously or not) start to throw himself to avoid the impact. In a real situation the attacker would either walk into the clothes line (if it was properly applied and they didn't see it coming) or else counter it.


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## punisher73

Tony Dismukes said:


> Even your clothesline example is an artifact of training rather than something which would happen in real life. An uke who has received the technique enough times will know he is about to get clotheslined and may (consciously or not) start to throw himself to avoid the impact. In a real situation the attacker would either walk into the clothes line (if it was properly applied and they didn't see it coming) or else counter it.



I agree that in some cases that is true, but there is a flinch response that isn't overridden in all cases.  I used a poor term by saying "throw themselves", I should have been more descriptive in that they flinch back and due to their poor balance already, will fall sometimes.  You are correct that it is not a throw like a trained person would do to avoid a wristlock etc. like we see in Aikido.


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## MattofSilat

It's a bit unrelated, but I don't feel what I'm saying has enough significance to have a thread on it's own, and it's sort of related to OP's video.

I've been watching some videos of Martial Arts on You Tube lately...

I know they're uneducated in Martial Arts, and probably pretty naive in general, but I just find it really hard to hold back when you see some teenager who has no idea what he's talking about called all MA's BS, saying Aikido especially is BS, Constantly going on about how anybody with any experience in MAs should beat somebody until they're half dead just because they can, all spiritual and artistic side to any MA is nonsense and BS (While Boxing and MMA, on the other hand, are God's gift to the world. Every MA apart from Wrestling and Boxing in MMA comes from outside America/UK, yet these people are the first to call B.S on every other art), Any art apart from Krav Maga or MMA will get your *** kicked in a street fight, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.

What do you guys do about this? Do you just suck it up and try not to comment at all or do you not look at the comments or what? I find it really aggravating...


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## Xue Sheng

You can't argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to thier level and beat you with expeience
'


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## K-man

MattofSilat said:


> It's a bit unrelated, but I don't feel what I'm saying has enough significance to have a thread on it's own, and it's sort of related to OP's video.
> 
> I've been watching some videos of Martial Arts on You Tube lately...
> 
> I know they're uneducated in Martial Arts, and probably pretty naive in general, but I just find it really hard to hold back when you see some teenager who has no idea what he's talking about called all MA's BS, saying Aikido especially is BS, Constantly going on about how anybody with any experience in MAs should beat somebody until they're half dead just because they can, all spiritual and artistic side to any MA is nonsense and BS (While Boxing and MMA, on the other hand, are God's gift to the world. Every MA apart from Wrestling and Boxing in MMA comes from outside America/UK, yet these people are the first to call B.S on every other art), Any art apart from Krav Maga or MMA will get your *** kicked in a street fight, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.
> 
> What do you guys do about this? Do you just suck it up and try not to comment at all or do you not look at the comments or what? I find it really aggravating...


This is exactly why I have given up on another current thread. I obviously can't pee that far up the wall.
:asian:


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## Reedone816

> You appear to already believe so why ask?


I believe he is legit, what I ask is about the no touching stuff if it is from aikido.


> Just out of curiosity, what is your source for this information? Have  you talked to the soldiers who trained with him or is the story coming  from the instructor himself?


He had spent time several months studying our style (which is still touching stuff) for his paper for promoting to dan-5 aikido.
That is why I don't ask about the touching stuff because he had perform it before, it just the "new" no touching stuff that he hadn't shown back then.


> Even your clothesline example is an artifact of training rather than  something which would happen in real life. An uke who has received the  technique enough times will know he is about to get clotheslined and may  (consciously or not) start to throw himself to avoid the impact. In a  real situation the attacker would either walk into the clothes line (if  it was properly applied and they didn't see it coming) or else counter  it.


Hmmm, that's a new perspective, seen it actually done with shout, but it hit the nail just now...


> Being respected,  knowledgeable, and an expert in any art dose not mean  that in time yo change and start promoting something else that may not  be as legit.
> A prim example of this is/was Dillman. The man was damn good at what he  did and what he taught way back in the early 70's but he changed and  started promoting his no touch years later.


I hope, this one has logic explanation on it, because, "truly" the no-touching stuff many here still believes it, it just it not all powerful, in 80's it was booming, many were sold, no need to sweat. 
but in the 90's when they saw that the no touching stuff is actually like physical training, the more you train the better you are, the longer you no training it will decreased, and it has some rituals that doesn't makes sense. 
and if your opponent is stronger physically or not mad at you, it won't affect them (big), and "strangely" it works like voodoo, it only works if your target believe it works, the "physical" martial art start growing back.
so more or less, the statement of "it only works on the student" somehow close.
I never faced with one, so I cannot say yes or not, but it really hard to go too straight challenged it already established "believed" value, especially the person left and right from you believe in it... 



> What do you guys do about this? Do you just suck it up and try not to  comment at all or do you not look at the comments or what? I find it  really aggravating...


sometimes if one lives near, we just respectfully ask them come to the dojo, and welcome them to proof their "assessment". This only to the nagging one, but mostly just ignore them...

Thank you all again for the responses...


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## Brian R. VanCise

As several have mentioned before it doesn't work!  It is total crap and ******** from a martial perspective!


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## Xue Sheng

Reedone816 said:


> I believe he is legit, what I ask is about the no touching stuff if it is from aikido.



Never thought his Aikido background was part of the question. Did think you were asking if no touch was part of Aikido....and it is not. Also thought that it should be brought in that anyone who claims to be able to do no touch knock downs was a fake. 

Beijing University of traditional Chinese medicine has studied this sort of thing and so far their stance on this is that anyone who claims to be able to project their qi and/or who claims to be able to knock people down with it are fake. As for what I think based on what I have seen the whole no touch stuff is as I stated, the guy has successfully taught his students how to fall down on queue (see ki master, and George Dillman)


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## punisher73

Xue Sheng said:


> Never thought his Aikido background was part of the question. Did think you were asking if no touch was part of Aikido....and it is not. Also thought that it should be brought in that anyone who claims to be able to do no touch knock downs was a fake.
> 
> Beijing University of traditional Chinese medicine has studied this sort of thing and so far their stance on this is that anyone who claims to be able to project their qi and/or who claims to be able to knock people down with it *are fake*. As for what I think based on what I have seen the whole no touch stuff is as I stated, the guy has successfully taught his students how to fall down on queue (see ki master, and George Dillman)



I have two different perspectives on this,  I think for martial applications it is BS.  I don't believe it works.

BUT, when looking at how it is done I think that most of the instructors sincerely believe in what they are doing.  I think what happens after I have watched it, is the same thing that happens during stage hypnosis.  I think that the instructor creates the same atmosphere and basically, "hypnotizes" their students as to what is going to happen and with the trust built with their instructor it does happen.  This is also why it does not work on doubtors who are not students.

So, is it "fake"?  Yes, if we are looking at the cause of it as being a "no touch knockout" due to "chi/ki".  If we look at the context itself, I don't think in all cases that it is "fake" as in a staged event where both parties are just acting, just a different mechanism through hypnosis.


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## Xue Sheng

punisher73 said:


> I have two different perspectives on this,  I think for martial applications it is BS.  I don't believe it works.
> 
> BUT, when looking at how it is done I think that most of the instructors sincerely believe in what they are doing.  I think what happens after I have watched it, is the same thing that happens during stage hypnosis.  I think that the instructor creates the same atmosphere and basically, "hypnotizes" their students as to what is going to happen and with the trust built with their instructor it does happen.  This is also why it does not work on doubtors who are not students.
> 
> So, is it "fake"?  Yes, if we are looking at the cause of it as being a "no touch knockout" due to "chi/ki".  If we look at the context itself, I don't think in all cases that it is "fake" as in a staged event where both parties are just acting, just a different mechanism through hypnosis.



I agree, but then it becomes more of a parlor trick. Or trickery in the manor of a hypnotist making someone think they are a chicken which is not a problem or a deception...but when the hypnotist  start to tell the person they actually turned them into a chicken, convince them of such then it is a whole other issue and when the hypnotist actual starts to believe it himself then he has crossed over to delusional and either way it is not real and the entire concept of "turning one into an actual chicken" is fake and the hypnotist is either delusional or a conman


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## K-man

punisher73 said:


> I have two different perspectives on this,  I think for martial applications it is BS.  I don't believe it works.
> 
> BUT, when looking at how it is done I think that most of the instructors sincerely believe in what they are doing.  I think what happens after I have watched it, is the same thing that happens during stage hypnosis.  I think that the instructor creates the same atmosphere and basically, "hypnotizes" their students as to what is going to happen and with the trust built with their instructor it does happen.  This is also why it does not work on doubtors who are not students.
> 
> So, is it "fake"?  Yes, if we are looking at the cause of it as being a "no touch knockout" due to "chi/ki".  If we look at the context itself, I don't think in all cases that it is "fake" as in a staged event where both parties are just acting, just a different mechanism through hypnosis.


So what happens when it works on people who are not students? Not the no- touch stuff but the use of Ki to enhance technique. To me there is a combination of BS and good aikido ... mostly the former, but I don't believe any of it is anything to do with hypnosis. If it doesn't work against outsiders it is BS like the kiai master video.
:asian:


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## Kung Fu Wang

All demonstration are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The 

- 1/2 fake is your opponent will need to give you that opportunity. 
- 1/2 real is you have to finish it. 

If your opponent not only give you that opportunity (1/2 fake), but also help you to finish it (1/2 fake), that's 100% fake by definition.

When your opponent runs toward you, if you hold a sword in front of you, you can stop him before his body touches the tip of your sword. If your opponent's is blind fold and run toward you, his body may run into your sword. This is why no Aikido masters on earth can move a "throwing dummy (or non-student)" the way as they can move their own students.

Also if a master can move his students like a bunch of straw men, it demonstrates his students are all weak individuals which is not good for his own reputation at all.


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## Brian R. VanCise

K-man said:


> So what happens when it works on people who are not students? Not the no- touch stuff but the use of Ki to enhance technique. To me there is a combination of BS and good aikido ... mostly the former, but I don't believe any of it is anything to do with hypnosis. If it doesn't work against outsiders it is BS like the kiai master video.
> :asian:



K-Man what do you think the Kiai Master does with his students to get them to throw themselves around.  Certainly his technique is horrible by what we have on video.  His movement certainly does not warrant the students throwing themselves.  What else could it be other than self hypnosis?

In regards to the OP's original video clip it won't work as planned as demonstrated above on non-students.  Just not going to happen.  No touch knockouts, throws, etc is BS.  Though if someone wants to give it a go with me I will be willing to put up $10,000 just so long as they are willing to put up $10,000 as well.  We could make it really interesting having them apply it while I am trying to hit them (  ) or I could stand there while they try to throw me without touching me.  We will also have scientists and video crews there to document their failure!  I am pretty confident!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Though if someone wants to give it a go with me I will be willing to put up $10,000 just so long as they are willing to put up $10,000 as well.  We could make it really interesting having them apply it while I am trying to hit them (  ) or I could stand there while they try to throw me without touching me.  We will also have scientists and video crews there to document their failure!  I am pretty confident!!!



If you can make it 10 to 1 deal ($10,000 on your side and only $1,000 on the customer side), you may have better luck for your business. IMO, even 10 to 1 is still a good business model.


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## K-man

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All demonstration are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The
> 
> - 1/2 fake is your opponent will need to give you that opportunity.
> - 1/2 real is you have to finish it.
> 
> If your opponent not only give you that opportunity (1/2 fake), but also help you to finish it (1/2 fake), that's 100% fake by definition.
> 
> When your opponent runs toward you, if you hold a sword in front of you, you can stop him before his body touches the tip of your sword. If your opponent's is blind fold and run toward you, his body may run into your sword. This is why no Aikido masters on earth can move a "throwing dummy (or non-student)" the way as they can move their own students.
> 
> Also if a master can move his students like a bunch of straw men, it demonstrates his students are all weak individuals which is not good for his own reputation at all.


I don't think this is anything to do with what I asked. What you are describing is quite right. To demonstrate any technique you must have your partner perform an attack that the technique you are demonstrating will work against. But that is nothing to do with fake. Even if your partner gives you a realistic response doesn't mean the technique is fake. For example, a number of techniques will be more effective following a strike. So if I want to demonstrate a particular joint lock I'm not going to punch my partner with full force first. 

However, that is an aside. Your statement about Aikido masters is not true. What you mean is, in your experience you haven't come across an aikido master who can do that sort of thing. I have and I can promise you I am neither a straw man or weak.
 :asian:


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## K-man

Brian R. VanCise said:


> K-Man what do you think the Kiai Master does with his students to get them to throw themselves around.  Certainly his technique is horrible by what we have on video.  His movement certainly does not warrant the students throwing themselves.  What else could it be other than self hypnosis?
> 
> In regards to the OP's original video clip it won't work as planned as demonstrated above on non-students.  Just not going to happen.  No touch knockouts, throws, etc is BS.  Though if someone wants to give it a go with me I will be willing to put up $10,000 just so long as they are willing to put up $10,000 as well.  We could make it really interesting having them apply it while I am trying to hit them (  ) or I could stand there while they try to throw me without touching me.  We will also have scientists and video crews there to document their failure!  I am pretty confident!!!


Mate, I'm with you on that one, but there is only one reason I started aikido. I wanted to be able to do what the guy teaching me could do. No one throws themselves anywhere in our training and it is all full resistance. I reckon it took me six years before I felt confidant enough to use most of it and some of it I still wouldn't use. But some of it I am teaching to my Karate and Krav guys. Then again, this particular teacher is the only one I have come across that can do what he does. But FWIW I reckon I could get $10k to put up for you. Not no-touchy stuff though. You try to hit him and he can hit you.  
Next time you are in Australia.


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## punisher73

Xue Sheng said:


> I agree, but then it becomes more of a parlor trick. Or trickery in the manor of a hypnotist making someone think they are a chicken which is not a problem or a deception...but when the hypnotist start to tell the person they actually turned them into a chicken, convince them of such then it is a whole other issue and when the hypnotist actual starts to believe it himself then he has crossed over to delusional and either way it is not real and the entire concept of "turning one into an actual chicken" is fake and the hypnotist is either delusional or a conman



I agree.  That is why I put many of those guys truly believe what they are doing and that it is, in fact, "no touch knockouts" with their chi.  It would put them in the column of delusional in your book.  If you believe in something and can show what you believe is true to your students.  Then, to them, it is true.  Reminds me of Freud's work, "Future of an Illusion".  I think that is a better definition in this case.  A delusion is something held by one person caused by a mental illness.  An illusion is something that the brain believes as true, but does not have a mental illness/medical condition attached to it that is believed by multiple people.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can make it 10 to 1 deal ($10,000 on your side and only $1,000 on the customer side), you may have better luck for your business. IMO, even 10 to 1 is still a good business model.



Yeah I think it is a total win on my side no matter what!


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## Reedone816

Brian R. VanCise said:


> As several have mentioned before it doesn't work!  It is total crap and ******** from a martial perspective!


Yes the trend is heading that way 



K-man said:


> So what happens when it works on people who are not students? Not the no- touch stuff but the use of Ki to enhance technique. To me there is a combination of BS and good aikido ... mostly the former, but I don't believe any of it is anything to do with hypnosis. If it doesn't work against outsiders it is BS like the kiai master video.
> :asian:


simplify the stance, if I can say, that no matter how "fake" or "foolish" it looks, the real question is whether it is working or not?


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## Hanzou

MattofSilat said:


> It's a bit unrelated, but I don't feel what I'm saying has enough significance to have a thread on it's own, and it's sort of related to OP's video.
> 
> I've been watching some videos of Martial Arts on You Tube lately...
> 
> I know they're uneducated in Martial Arts, and probably pretty naive in general, but I just find it really hard to hold back when you see some teenager who has no idea what he's talking about called all MA's BS, saying Aikido especially is BS, Constantly going on about how anybody with any experience in MAs should beat somebody until they're half dead just because they can, all spiritual and artistic side to any MA is nonsense and BS (While Boxing and MMA, on the other hand, are God's gift to the world. Every MA apart from Wrestling and Boxing in MMA comes from outside America/UK, yet these people are the first to call B.S on every other art), Any art apart from Krav Maga or MMA will get your *** kicked in a street fight, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.
> 
> What do you guys do about this? Do you just suck it up and try not to comment at all or do you not look at the comments or what? I find it really aggravating...



The kid makes a point. Some people don't simply believe in faith and magic. If you want someone to believe your claims, you need to step up and prove it to them.

Unfortunately, too many in the martial arts don't step up and show what their arts can do, so people on the competitive side of things scoff at them. 

I do think its interesting how some get more angry at people who simply want martial artists to prove their claims, than the frauds and con-men who teach absolute nonsense and scam people out of their hard earned money, and give people a false sense of security.

Aikido is simply one of those arts that has a lot of poor practitioners due to its high learning curve. I've personally never met an Aikidoka who could perform their art on a very high level, and every Aikidoka I've had the pleasure of sparring with simply couldn't make their style work for them. I would certainly like to meet a proficient Aikidoka one day, but as of right now, I'd probably be nodding my head alongside the teenager in the YT comments.


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## K-man

I'm out of here before it becomes another MMA is the only way thread like all the others that have been thread-jacked.
:s436:


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## Brian R. VanCise

Okay I have personally met some very accomplished Aikido practitioners and I have no doubt they could utilize their training.  


What the OP was looking at was someone utilizing no touch jedi like skill sets to throw people.  This is self hypnosis and for self defense it is crap!  It is not proper body mechanics or moving out of the way at the last instant so the person falls when off balanced like what K-Man described of his teacher.  No touch KO, *Throws is simply fantasy and self hypnosis!*


Look at this clip shot in Bali, Indonesia and tell me if you would want to rely on this skill in a self-defense, personal protection situation.






Note that the people in the clip do not seem like the people utilizing it for advertising!  Weird, I know!


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## jks9199

There are no touch throws -- but the real ones generally work by essentially suckering the adversary into over committing until they fall.  I've seen and felt a few other things done -- but the effects are very subtle, more an inclination than an actual throw or touch.  And not something I'd want to rely on under any sort of pressure, since they seem to work best in calm, quiet settings.


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## tshadowchaser

Brain,
I think my 5 year old grandson makes  the no touch look more real when his invisible attackers get him in the back yard.

As for accomplished Aikido practitioners  being able to defend themselves I have met a few that deffenately could ..surprisingly both where police officers and very few people knew they studied Aikido


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## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> There are no touch throws -- but the real ones generally work by essentially suckering the adversary into over committing until they fall.  I've seen and felt a few other things done -- but the effects are very subtle, more an inclination than an actual throw or touch.  And not something I'd want to rely on under any sort of pressure, since they seem to work best in calm, quiet settings.



Absolutely!


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## drop bear

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw


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## Reedone816

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay I have personally met some very accomplished Aikido practitioners and I have no doubt they could utilize their training.
> 
> 
> What the OP was looking at was someone utilizing no touch jedi like skill sets to throw people.  This is self hypnosis and for self defense it is crap!  It is not proper body mechanics or moving out of the way at the last instant so the person falls when off balanced like what K-Man described of his teacher.  No touch KO, *Throws is simply fantasy and self hypnosis!*
> 
> 
> Look at this clip shot in Bali, Indonesia and tell me if you would want to rely on this skill in a self-defense, personal protection situation.
> 
> Note that the people in the clip do not seem like the people utilizing it for advertising!  Weird, I know!


That thing with many names and systems had a hype back in 80's, but now it dwindling (hardcore muay thai now is the "thing"), because the students learn that it can't work with anyone, whatever that is...
and now they move to "invulnarability" (presidential guard):


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## tshadowchaser

Sorry not speaking the language I have no idea what that video was about


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## Brian R. VanCise

In the above Presidential Guard video are they saying they are invulnerable because of their training?

I saw them training in Aikido, Tai Chi (in the background), Karate and some form of Pencak Silat it looked like.  Plus they talked about training in MMA.  Pretty par for the course for any specialized military, para military group in that they get a smattering of training in several disciplines.  At least ones that have not adopted one concise training regimen like MCMAP (our Marines program), etc.


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## Reedone816

The clips above told the story of the kind of skills a presidential guard should have.
The aikido, seems clear, the green uniform is pencak silat along with machete mastering, along with weapon training and hard hand to hand combat ability, can you see them in white training uniform? That certain kind of school has invulnerability (as breaking metal and such) and sensor enhanching curriculum...

Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk


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## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay I have personally met some very accomplished Aikido practitioners and I have no doubt they could utilize their training.
> 
> 
> What the OP was looking at was someone utilizing no touch jedi like skill sets to throw people.  This is self hypnosis and for self defense it is crap!  It is not proper body mechanics or moving out of the way at the last instant so the person falls when off balanced like what K-Man described of his teacher.  No touch KO, *Throws is simply fantasy and self hypnosis!*




I was responding more to MattofSilat who was upset about people having disparaging opinions about more esoteric styles like Aikido.

I was merely pointing out that the negative opinion of Aikido among the masses is the lack of Aikido masters showing what their art can. The Gracies did it in the 1990s, and Bruce Lee did it in the 70s. Unfortunately, arts like Aikido don't do it, and because of that, people simply don't take it seriously.

Videos like this don't help matters either;


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## Brian R. VanCise

The Gracies certainly did show what they can do over a long period of time well before they even came to the United States.  Bruce Lee well he never competed or anything other than being in the movies.  We really at this stage do not know what Bruce could do.  Though he certainly did found a great system and Dan Inosanto took it even further!  We do know however that certain JKD practitioner's like Erik Paulson, etc. have been very successful in competitions.  However, competition is not self-defense and someone does not have to be a great competitor to be very good at self-defense and personal protection.  I know several Aikidoka that have used their training during work related situations. (ie. law enfocement and corrections)  They have always been thankful for their Aikido training.  That being said there are some pretty bad videos of any art/system that has been around for awhile.  There is always a proponent from a system that couldn't fight out of a paper bag.


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## Hanzou

Reedone816 said:


> First of all I'm not currently learning Aikido, but intrigue with this clip.
> Want to ask about this video, is Aikido really teach the no touching stuff? or is it only to the branch the teacher founded?
> The teacher here is legit, as he taught military police and president guards.



Here is the founder of Aikido doing pretty much the exact same stuff you see in that vid;


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## jks9199

Watch the video of Ueshiba a bit more carefully.  Yes, some of them are indeed throwing themselves -- but not many,and when they do, it's often to avoid injury from what Ueshiba's superior positioning and control of their arm has created.  You don't see any of the silly rope-a-dope stuff; uke approaches, Ueshiba moves, and for the "no touch" -- shoves a hand in the guy's face, forcing him to pull back and lose his balance unless he wants to get hit in the face.  

That's one of the things many people don't understand when they see aikido, traditional jujitsu, and other paired kata.  There is almost always an escape or an out allowed for uke to take to avoid being injured.  So it looks like they're "complying" -- but the truth is, if they didn't comply a bit, they'd be hurt.  Complaining about that is a bit like watching law enforcement training with marking cartridges, and complaining that people don't get hurt or fall down dead.  Nobody needs to practice being dead... it seems to come quite naturally.


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## Hanzou

jks9199 said:


> Watch the video of Ueshiba a bit more carefully.  Yes, some of them are indeed throwing themselves -- but not many,and when they do, it's often to avoid injury from what Ueshiba's superior positioning and control of their arm has created.  You don't see any of the silly rope-a-dope stuff; uke approaches, Ueshiba moves, and for the "no touch" -- shoves a hand in the guy's face, forcing him to pull back and lose his balance unless he wants to get hit in the face.



I'm sorry but are we watching the same video? There's literally instances of Ueshiba standing next to someone, touching them, and uke falling flat on his face. In some instances, he isn't touching uke at all, and uke goes flying. 

Let's be honest here; If this was anyone but Ueshiba, we wouldn't take this demonstration seriously at all.



> That's one of the things many people don't understand when they see aikido, traditional jujitsu, and other paired kata.  There is almost always an escape or an out allowed for uke to take to avoid being injured.  So it looks like they're "complying" -- but the truth is, if they didn't comply a bit, they'd be hurt.  Complaining about that is a bit like watching law enforcement training with marking cartridges, and complaining that people don't get hurt or fall down dead.  Nobody needs to practice being dead... it seems to come quite naturally.



Except we know that a bullet can maim or kill someone. Most people would agree that you can't throw someone in an opposite direction with a wave of your hand, and pin someone down by making a downward motion without even touching the body. If you could, a lot more people would be doing it outside of demonstrations

I mean look at his;






This is very clearly the no-touch ki nonsense.


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## blindsage

Either someone can do it or they can't.  Arguing about it here won't change that.  If Ueshiba is totally legit in those videos, there is literally no way to convince anyone of it.  Proof is in the pudding.  If they can do it, no amount of rationalizing about why they can't will change it.  If they can't do it, you can find out for yourself and then you don't have to worry about arguing about it.


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## Hanzou

blindsage said:


> Either someone can do it or they can't.  Arguing about it here won't change that.  If Ueshiba is totally legit in those videos, there is literally no way to convince anyone of it.  Proof is in the pudding.  If they can do it, no amount of rationalizing about why they can't will change it.  If they can't do it, you can find out for yourself and then you don't have to worry about arguing about it.



He isn't doing it. Especially not the no-touch ki stuff in the video I just posted. You either have students participating in a mass delusion, or you have them performing stunts in order to make their teacher and style look good. Again, what Ueshiba is doing in the videos I posted is no different than what you saw in the OP's video.

That supposed practice of moving people around with ki only stretches back to O Sensei himself.


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## hussaf

Ueshiba was a brilliant martial artist and a crazy religious fanatic.  It's tough to sort through the crazy and useful stuff.  A lot of the disparity in aikido stems from the confusion of Ueshibas direct students due to Ueshiba being kind of ****** at teaching.


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## blindsage

Hanzou said:


> He isn't doing it. Especially not the no-touch ki stuff in the video I just posted. You either have students participating in a mass delusion, or you have them performing stunts in order to make their teacher and style look good. Again, what Ueshiba is doing in the videos I posted is no different than what you saw in the OP's video.
> 
> That supposed practice of moving people around with ki only stretches back to O Sensei himself.


And thanks for proving my point.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> You either have students participating in a mass delusion, or you have them performing stunts in order to make their teacher and style look good.



Agree with you 100% on this.

If you have the skill, you should be able to throw a "throwing dummy" the same way as you throw your own student. The physics of throwing is very simple. You move your opponent's center to be outside of his base area, he will fall. If you do it right, your opponent doesn't need to throw himself just like the "throwing dummy" won't be able to throw itself.

If you can throw a throwing dummy "without touching it", your name will be recorded in the MA history forever.


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## blindsage

Why bother throwing the dummy when you can just stop holding it up.  No touch is easy with a throwing dummy, when it stands up on it's own I will show you.


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## Hanzou

The point is that people are quick to say that no touch ki from some no name Aikido practitioner was ridiculous nonsense. Yet when O Sensei is doing the exact same thing, and is probably the inspiration for all the no touch ki quacks, people aren't so quick to say its fake.

Except it is fake. Just because O Sensei does it doesn't make it any less fake.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with you 100% on this.
> 
> If you have the skill, you should be able to throw a "throwing dummy" the same way as you throw your own student. The physics of throwing is very simple. You move your opponent's center to be outside of his base area, he will fall. If you do it right, your opponent doesn't need to throw himself just like the "throwing dummy" won't be able to throw itself.
> 
> If you can throw a throwing dummy "without touching it", your name will be recorded in the MA history forever.



Pretty much. I'm surprised O Sensei didn't start force choking people Vader style.


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